# Feeling like crap today with separation



## MrPack

I talked to my wife today about some problems I had with how our separation is going. We are coming on to week 4 and have yet to discuss a timeline or plan as to when/how we can try and fix things. She still doesn't know when she'll be ready to work on things or go the other route. I told her how mad I've been lately feeling like we are just in a state of limbo with all of this and she says she understands and is sorry but she isn't ready to make any decisions yet. 

It's hard because she is considerably more busy than I am since she is in med school right now and I just work a normal 9-5 job. I understand that its going to take her longer to figure out what she wants to do but it's not easy. I also understand that we are in a real separation but I'm really struggling to keep a positive routine going without her in my life. One day I have thoughts of "screw this I'm tired of waiting around for her" then I have I thoughts of "I will do anything to reconcile no matter how long it takes". 

My question I guess is how long is too long for a separation??


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## unblinded

MrPack said:


> I talked to my wife today about some problems I had with how our separation is going. We are coming on to week 4 and have yet to discuss a timeline or plan as to when/how we can try and fix things. She still doesn't know when she'll be ready to work on things or go the other route. *I told her how mad I've been lately feeling like we are just in a state of limbo with all of this and she says she understands and is sorry but she isn't ready to make any decisions yet. *
> 
> It's hard because she is considerably more busy than I am since she is in med school right now and I just work a normal 9-5 job. I understand that its going to take her longer to figure out what she wants to do but it's not easy. I also understand that we are in a real separation but I'm really struggling to keep a positive routine going without her in my life. One day I have thoughts of "screw this I'm tired of waiting around for her" then I have I thoughts of *"I will do anything to reconcile no matter how long it takes".*
> 
> My question I guess is how long is too long for a separation??


So I'm still a newbie on TAM, but I'm going to offer my two cents on this. Don't do anything that would cause you to lose your dignity or self-respect. I took the approach of "I'll do anything to save my marriage", and the only result was me hating myself afterwards. In retrospect, what I thought was 'the devoted husband' strategy was nothing more than groveling to a person who threw our marriage vows in the trash.

I support your efforts to save your marriage, but don't lose yourself in the process. Believe me...it's a long road back.


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## MarieB

I'm new here too, but also in the midst of a separation. OP, I can totally relate to your feelings. My separation is 6 months now and my H is not ready to commit to one way or another. A friend of mine said that the limbo is literally the worst stage of this uncertain game. I can sympathize with your feelings of screw this and back to but if I just give it some time...unfortunately I have no words of advice but I did want to just say hang in there..😔
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lifeistooshort

Why did you separate? What were your issues?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MrPack

lifeistooshort said:


> Why did you separate? What were your issues?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I posted my original story about a week ago. But long story short we've sort of just drifted apart the last couple years very slowly. She started med school about 6 months ago and that was the straw that broke the camels back. We have no time for eachother right now because of our conflicting schedules. We sort of turned into roommates so to speak. Tip toed around all the signs of our marriage falling apart and now we are here. Neither one of us is ready to give up yet but also we cant find a common ground to start working on things either. She literally is wrapped up in med school plus work at the med school 80 hours a week then more studying on the weekends. 

Right now we are both working on ourselves and trying to figure out if we do want to make it work. I'm really struggling cause I'm ready to try now but she isn't there yet.


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## FormerSelf

Doesn't seem to be very good conditions for a separation with the intent of reconciliation...mainly med school...as that in itself is going to be such a huge physical and emotional drain on her.

Yet, I know asking someone to put off med school to fix a marriage would probably be asking too much. I would drop something in a heartbeat to save my marriage...I know my STBX would not.

Having said that, I would suggest that you take the time to bring the focus into your areas of responsibility. Do your part to demonstrate your seriousness of fixing things even if your wife isn't presently able. 

unblinded made a very good point as to not diminish your perceived value/wife's respect. You do this by perhaps doing a partial 180...because there is still SOME intent to save the relationship, but I would highly suggest you refrain from talking about the future or try to corner your wife into recommitting. Let the cage door be open without any strings attached. I know this feels like insanity because you already aren't spending much time together...but you need a total PR overhaul.

Hit the gym. Start up a whole new network of support. Get a new style going for yourself. Mix it up. And when you do meet with wife, you are basically going to take her on dates where she can feel some release from the stress and pressure of her schooling...and doesn't feel like she is compelled to have to attend to your emotional wants/needs/longings. Again, do not talk about the future...let her bring it up...and when she does, don't spring like a bear trap.

For a person who has one foot out of the door, being pressured repels them. If you leave the cage door open, make yourself more attractive, and give them space...they may get curious and float back on in. That is your best bet to keep her in the game.

However, setting a timeframe and laying down the gauntlet of "enough is enough" is still ultimately justified...as her expectations to drift in this separation limbo without any explicit plans or steps towards reconciliation is not cool. This however, won't be the maneuver of a lesser being, where you are needy and whining for your wife to come back because it is unfair. No, this is you taking power when you have demonstrated attractiveness, self-respect...and has been playing a cool-cat while wooing your wife back. Eventually you will need to express your expectation that this limbo ends...that you deserve better treatment...and you are prepared to dutifully call it quits and move onto bigger and better things. 

I guess what I am saying is that you need to get far away from the perspective that you need to measure up to her expectations...but you need to increase your perceived value, so that she will be forced to reckon with your expectations. Not whiny expectations, but expectations from the new, sexual demi-god that you have become during the separation. Changes that are real, not surface...which is hard to do, but necessary to put a jolt in this thing.

That way, if she decided to reconcile...then you can walk into full confidence to dictate for yourself what needs to take place while she has to decide if she'll join you in that direction or not. No compromises. And if she has decided to move on, then you have already done your own steps towards independence. I know it is stressful and lonely right now, but you are going to have to dig deep and get over the rejection your feel to take charge of your life and situation.


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## MrPack

FormerSelf said:


> Doesn't seem to be very good conditions for a separation with the intent of reconciliation...mainly med school...as that in itself is going to be such a huge physical and emotional drain on her.
> 
> Yet, I know asking someone to put off med school to fix a marriage would probably be asking too much. I would drop something in a heartbeat to save my marriage...I know my STBX would not.
> 
> Having said that, I would suggest that you take the time to bring the focus into your areas of responsibility. Do your part to demonstrate your seriousness of fixing things even if your wife isn't presently able.
> 
> unblinded made a very good point as to not diminish your perceived value/wife's respect. You do this by perhaps doing a partial 180...because there is still SOME intent to save the relationship, but I would highly suggest you refrain from talking about the future or try to corner your wife into recommitting. Let the cage door be open without any strings attached. I know this feels like insanity because you already aren't spending much time together...but you need a total PR overhaul.
> 
> Hit the gym. Start up a whole new network of support. Get a new style going for yourself. Mix it up. And when you do meet with wife, you are basically going to take her on dates where she can feel some release from the stress and pressure of her schooling...and doesn't feel like she is compelled to have to attend to your emotional wants/needs/longings. Again, do not talk about the future...let her bring it up...and when she does, don't spring like a bear trap.
> 
> For a person who has one foot out of the door, being pressured repels them. If you leave the cage door open, make yourself more attractive, and give them space...they may get curious and float back on in. That is your best bet to keep her in the game.
> 
> However, setting a timeframe and laying down the gauntlet of "enough is enough" is still ultimately justified...as her expectations to drift in this separation limbo without any explicit plans or steps towards reconciliation is not cool. This however, won't be the maneuver of a lesser being, where you are needy and whining for your wife to come back because it is unfair. No, this is you taking power when you have demonstrated attractiveness, self-respect...and has been playing a cool-cat while wooing your wife back. Eventually you will need to express your expectation that this limbo ends...that you deserve better treatment...and you are prepared to dutifully call it quits and move onto bigger and better things.
> 
> I guess what I am saying is that you need to get far away from the perspective that you need to measure up to her expectations...but you need to increase your perceived value, so that she will be forced to reckon with your expectations. Not whiny expectations, but expectations from the new, sexual demi-god that you have become during the separation. Changes that are real, not surface...which is hard to do, but necessary to put a jolt in this thing.
> 
> That way, if she decided to reconcile...then you can walk into full confidence to dictate for yourself what needs to take place while she has to decide if she'll join you in that direction or not. No compromises. And if she has decided to move on, then you have already done your own steps towards independence. I know it is stressful and lonely right now, but you are going to have to dig deep and get over the rejection your feel to take charge of your life and situation.


You pretty much hit the nail on the head with everything my close friends and family are telling me. Thank you for your advice and encouragement. My goal for this week is to back off and continue to do things for myself. I said my piece to her today whether that was good or bad it happened. I cant force anything on her so I'm trying really hard starting tonight to back off and give it some time and also trying really hard to be okay with my own thoughts, needs, wants and feelings about my future and our "potential future" together.


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## MrPack

update....

I get a call last night from my wifes drunk cousin. He blabbered about how no matter what happens with me and my wife that he will always be there for me and consider me a brother. Then he proceeds to say that he knows nothing but has a feeling that my wife may have met someone else because he thinks this separation just came out of no where. I explained to him that things built up over the past couple years but he just kept saying he thinks theres someone else. Keep in mind my wife has maybe talked to this cousin 2 times in the last 6 months. He swears up and down that he knows nothing, no facts or anything he just has a gut feeling. So anyway I was feeling really good last night up until that call. I dont even talk to the guy much either, he's known in the family for being a drunk and always involved in everyones business but tries to make it seem like he cares. If he truly cared why would he call me all hammered and tell me all his awful suspicions and theories with no facts to back it up?

I talked to my wife this morning because I was pissed and wanted her to know that her cousin was butting into our business and that of course pissed her off. Apparently the same cousin called her last night soon after he had called me. She said he had been drinking all day and was crying on the phone to her about how sad he is for us. Aside from that while talking to my wife today she said it again that she is not seeing anyone right now and then proceeded to say but we are separated and that she consideres that as being somewhat single. She says to me that if I go on dates or meet another women that she doesnt want to know about it but I dont feel the same way. I'm not doign this separation deal so that we can go out and date people. I konw alot of you will read this post and say oh she's definately seeing another man maybe she is but the one thing that her and I always had was honesty. But now she is acting like just because we are separated that we dont have to know everything about what eachother is doing. 

I'm losing hope every day it seems like, part of me sees us working things out in the future and another part of me says screw this at the very least file for a legal separation and then look at divorce. I dont know what to do and how much time I should sit around thinking about which direction to go.


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## SecondTime'Round

You're right. I do think she's already seeing someone .


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## Pluto2

So very sorry for your pain, and yes I think she's looking to see other people, if it hasn't started already.

The best thing you can do for you is to implement the 180. This allows you to gain some perspective on the relationship and gives you strength, no matter what direction your relationship goes.

Don't you find it odd (in a hurtful way), that your spouse has repeatedly said she can't consider working on your relationship, but that she'll go out and start a new one. Sweetie if she has the time to start a new relationship, she can damn well work on the one she hasn't finished yet. I know you want to save the relationship. Are you willing to end it to make that happen? Right now it doesn't seem like your spouse has any reason to stop her current path. Perhaps if she knew the separation has consequences that might change. I would recommend seeing an attorney and making this all formal. She is resisting any work on your marriage because she's taking the easy way out. Stop making it easy for her.


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## Steve1000

MrPack said:


> update....
> while talking to my wife today she said it again that she is not seeing anyone right now and then proceeded to say but we are separated and that *she consideres that as being somewhat single*. She says to me that if I go on dates or meet another women that *she doesnt want to know about it *


You should disregard the drunk cousin as well as your wife's denial. However, her reply contains two very big and very common red flags. I guess that she is developing a new relationship with someone. You can probably find out the details, but she is not likely to show remorse because she seems to already be emotionally gone.


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## Steve1000

Pluto2 said:


> Don't you find it odd (in a hurtful way), that your spouse has repeatedly said she can't consider working on your relationship, but that she'll go out and start a new one. .......... Perhaps if she knew the separation has consequences that might change. I would recommend seeing an attorney and making this all formal. She is resisting any work on your marriage because she's taking the easy way out. Stop making it easy for her.


Yea, too busy with studies deal with her old relationship. That's a rather cruel realization. 

For your second point, I agree that he needs to stop waiting, but in this case, I think he should first distance himself from her before divorcing her. She's not likely the type who will realize the value of what she may lose. She has the drive to pursue medical school. She is likely attracted more to men who she feels are equals. 

Best thing the OP can do is distance himself and realize that he can also be happier someday with a better person who admires him.


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## ConanHub

You must be in Egypt because you are in "denial".
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tron

Are you interested in waiting in the wings, pining for her while she test rides the new guy?


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## MrPack

I am fairly new to TAM but I feel like every post including mine that I read about a spouse leaving another spouse everone just jumps right into the "oh your spouse has met someone else". I konw it happens A LOT, but what if it isnt happening and I sit here investigating that possibility and act like a creep prying into everything how does that look in the end if she isnt seeing someone else? 

I am fully prepared to start the 180 and do things for me but I dont see myself running around every chance I get spying on her and trying to figure out if she's lying about seeing someone else it'll drive me crazy. If she's not being truthfull about it right now she's gonna have to be soon when I give her the ultimatum. 

I've posted about it before but we have our friends wedding out of town in a few weeks (I'm a groomsman and shes a bridesmaide). My plan right now is to step away and not contact her at all from now until the wedding. After the wedding is over I'm going to have one last talk with her and lay out my ultimatum. I feel like I could do that now but I dont want to make things more uncomforatable for MYSELF during our friends wedding.


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## Tron

There is NO OTHER EXPLANATION for her saying I am ok with dating others during this separation...as long as we keep it a secret.

She is cheating or wants to cheat and does not want to be called out on it.

Tell her you don't believe married couples should date others and if that is what she wants you will help move things along and file for D.


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## MEM2020

MrPack,

This is a dangerous situation. Generally I think it's a terrible mistake to try to control anyone else. However, if you have no boundaries - you WILL become invisible to your partner. 

A boundary is simply a line, that if intentionally a repeatedly crossed by someone else, means you edit them out of your environment. 

A typically boundary in marriage is the vow to forsake all others. 

Your wife has made it clear she wants to use this separation to interview replacement candidates. She wants a 'don't ask, don't tell' model. 

If it was me, I'd step on that idea hard. 

I'd tell her, 'taking time to decide what you want is fine, evaluating other partners while we are separated is not acceptable. If you are certain that you need to be FREE to date others, than I will free you entirely from this marriage so we can both get on with our lives'. 

If you don't do that, you are allowing her to treat the marriage as if it is unimportant. That's a horrible precedent to set. 





MrPack said:


> update....
> 
> I get a call last night from my wifes drunk cousin. He blabbered about how no matter what happens with me and my wife that he will always be there for me and consider me a brother. Then he proceeds to say that he knows nothing but has a feeling that my wife may have met someone else because he thinks this separation just came out of no where. I explained to him that things built up over the past couple years but he just kept saying he thinks theres someone else. Keep in mind my wife has maybe talked to this cousin 2 times in the last 6 months. He swears up and down that he knows nothing, no facts or anything he just has a gut feeling. So anyway I was feeling really good last night up until that call. I dont even talk to the guy much either, he's known in the family for being a drunk and always involved in everyones business but tries to make it seem like he cares. If he truly cared why would he call me all hammered and tell me all his awful suspicions and theories with no facts to back it up?
> 
> I talked to my wife this morning because I was pissed and wanted her to know that her cousin was butting into our business and that of course pissed her off. Apparently the same cousin called her last night soon after he had called me. She said he had been drinking all day and was crying on the phone to her about how sad he is for us. Aside from that while talking to my wife today she said it again that she is not seeing anyone right now and then proceeded to say but we are separated and that she consideres that as being somewhat single. She says to me that if I go on dates or meet another women that she doesnt want to know about it but I dont feel the same way. I'm not doign this separation deal so that we can go out and date people. I konw alot of you will read this post and say oh she's definately seeing another man maybe she is but the one thing that her and I always had was honesty. But now she is acting like just because we are separated that we dont have to know everything about what eachother is doing.
> 
> I'm losing hope every day it seems like, part of me sees us working things out in the future and another part of me says screw this at the very least file for a legal separation and then look at divorce. I dont know what to do and how much time I should sit around thinking about which direction to go.


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## MrPack

Like I said I have 3 weeks until our friends wedding and the inevidably awkward and tough night. Once that wedding weekend is over I feel right now that I can and will give her the ultimatum. At that time it will be a month and a half. Up to this point it does seem like she is just keeping me on the back burner in case whatever plan she thinks she has doesnt work out. I would have this talk with her right now but I DO NOT want to flare up that drama prior to the wedding and make things harder than they will already be. 

Again, thanks everyone for your comments and advice. I never thought I would feel this terrible, up until yesterday I was going through the poor pittiful me phase and telling myself everything will work out if I have faith and stay posititve. Well now I feel like my anger is finally comming out, I'm pissed off that I sacraficed so much for her while she went through under grad only working part time and then med school. I put off alot of goals for myself and goals I thought we wanted but I was wrong. I'm pissed off that she can do this to me and not flinch. Yea maybe she is hurting too but it sure as hell doesnt seem like it. I'm sick that she has treated our marriage and me as not so much of a priority. If there is someone else not only is she obviously going to lose me but she will be losing A LOT of family and friends. How can one person change so much within a couple years? Why did I let it get so bad without confronting it. Okay rant over...


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## Tron

Conflict avoidant are you?

What if by standing your ground now you prevent her from consummating this other relationship she is contemplating?

Dude, she is taking you for a chump! 

Who gives a $hit whether you and her have some awkward thing going at a wedding 3 weeks from now?

If she says "No, I am ready to end this M", then you go to the wedding without a ring and show all those single ladies how F'ing awesome you are.


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## LongWalk

Step one get a copy of her cell phone bill to figure out to whom she is deeply attracted or already attached.


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## Steve1000

Tron said:


> Conflict avoidant are you?


In other areas of life, he might not be conflict avoidant. One thing I have learned is that it is impossible for most people to think completely rationally when confronted with the pain of betrayal. Give him some time to process this. It took me a year to think clearly. 

Most of us are 99.5% certain that his wife is involved with another man. However, it is that .5% chance that is very difficult for the BS to let go of.


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## Feelingsadnlonely

I feel you should give it at least a year. I know, right now, this may seem like forever. But really, a year can put many things into perspective for you. When my H left me, all my friends and family told me not to make any radical decisions because I wasn't thinking straight. They all told me, give it a year. You will know in a year which way your marriage will end up. Maybe you guys will get back together, maybe you file for a divorce. 

So I'm giving you the same advice. A year seems fair. Time goes by so quick that it'll be here before you know it! Hang in there. You're in a tough spot right now. I HATED to be in that limbo state. It was sooooooo unfair! But, at the end, that time apart helped me become stronger. I wish you the best in whatever you decide!


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## MrPack

When we spoke this morning I told her I dont agree with seeing other people during separation. She then said again that she isnt seeing someone else and I also said I wasnt seeing anyone else. I made it pretty damn clear this morning to her that I do not agree with that thought but I am not prepared enough yet mentally to have the final "showdown" and give her the its my way or the highway talk. Hell I dont even know fully what I want yet. 

I know most of you have had experience in situations like this and you have your suspicions based on my posts but knowing who I am and where I'm at with all of this I know that right now I am not prepared to sit down and tell her the bottom line. She wants her space and I've given that to her, now I feel like I am ready to take advantage of that space and do things for myself and when I'm ready and feeling strong and confident I'll lay it all out on the table. 

As for the phone bill, I've looked at that damn thing almost every day the past couple weeks and have found nothing unusual. Literally all the numbers she sends/receives texts to or calls/receives calls are the girls in her study group, family, friends that she has been talking to for years. Theres one guy from her school that she texts within the same study group text conversations and he likes guys soo...

I honestly think she made those comments about acting "single" while separated because she wants to be single right now and see if she can handle life without me, does that mean she's found someone else already...I personally dont think so right now but what it does seem to me is that she wants to make herself feel okay with the fact in case she does meet someone while we are separated. And that is just as bad in my mind.

Like I said I appreciate what you guys all have to say and I am asking for advice but its sooo hard when I have close friends, family and her family (aside from her drunk cousin) who all tell me I'm being rediculous for thinking she's seeing someone. I dont know who to listen to anymore.


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## MrPack

MrPack said:


> When we spoke this morning I told her I dont agree with seeing other people during separation. She then said again that she isnt seeing someone else and I also said I wasnt seeing anyone else. I made it pretty damn clear this morning to her that I do not agree with that thought but I am not prepared enough yet mentally to have the final "showdown" and give her the its my way or the highway talk. Hell I dont even know fully what I want yet.
> 
> 
> I should have mentioned that there was texting going on this morning after the initial conversation and after my initial post.


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## Chaparral

How would you describe her communications with you now? How often does she call and text you? Increasing or decreasing? Are you dating each other at all? Are you having sex at all? How often are you seeing each other?


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## SecondTime'Round

I know of one couple who separated for issues not related to infidelity and got back together and are still together. They had 3 kids and she left him for a while, mostly due to mistreatment. She stayed with HIS family. 

You know your wife and we don't, but the biggest red flag is her willingness, at least, to date other people. You shouldn't have to be in a position of wondering whether or not she has come across someone "better" than you. If her motivation for the separation is truly to try to work things out, her stance on this issue should be, "HECK no! Seeing anyone else is not even on my radar!" 

I get what you mean about the wedding. I'm in a 3 week wait as well (I'm moving out) so I'll wait with you .


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## Chaparral

Try to stick with one thread, it helps folks follow you.


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## LongWalk

MrPack,

You are an intelligent person but it is hard for you to face the truth. Your wife is like an employer who has decided that a certain someone on the staff does not measure up. She is looking for the right way to fire you. At the moment you are on probation. This has shredded your self confidence which only fuels her desire to get rid of you.

Do you remember when she was studying for MCATs? How did she treat you then?

When you got a job how did she treat you? When you got your first pay check and took her out for dinner, how did you feel?

Right now you don't dare put your hand between her legs or touch her breast. In fact do you even dare to hug her? Kiss her? This is no way to live.

As to the wedding it will likely be a tense and miserable experience, unless you can do something crazy and funny to escape the pressure.

1) Look her in the eye and tell her that seeing others is cheating. If she wants to date, divorce. It's that simple. Force her to come out with it instead of drawing out the separation, leaving you in limbo. The limbo is going to make you feel worse than if you just end it.

2) Who files for divorce?
One approach now is file first. In fact, I recommend that you file and give it to her at wedding. Let her break down and run away. The alternative is that you walk around like a self conscious robot.

3) Just do the 180
The purpose of the 180 is make putting an end to it easier on you. It is possible that the 180 will shock her back. You cannot jump if she shows some marginal interest in you. The person who wants the relationship less has all the the power. The person who doesn't want it is the dictator.

Hit the gym. Are you over weight? To help you sleep put in a brutal workout everyday to tire you out completely. What sports do you play?

Has you wife unfriended you on Facebook already?

Maybe you should post pictures of you rowing a scull or rock climbing. Find out what the coolest indie music coming down is. Go and listen. Visit your friends. Go to a fertility clinic and donate sperm, maybe they even pay for it. When you think about your WW/WAW, you can smile and think that maybe your DNA is already combined into making a new human being. I don't have any tattoos, but maybe you should.

Finally, doctors have crazy hours. She hasn't even gotten to the stay all hours of the day and night in the hospital.

How is she paying for medical school? Are you helping her?


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## FormerSelf

With more detail coming in, it sounds like she waiting to "upgrade" when the time is appropriate. With med school on the horizon, I can't think of a worse time for someone wanting a separation...such a huge waste of finances and energy that could be devoted to study and sleep. This situation triggers my affair spider-sense.

I take it you are still financially floating her in spite of the separation? If so, then she isn't thinking in terms of independence to "think things through", but rather she may be thinking in terms of getting paid and getting to sleep with someone else. I could be way off base, but this doesn't reconcile very well without another person in the picture.

But then again, we don;t really know the preexisting issues that led to the separation. But, if I were thin-slicing the situation, I'd say she has some diminished respect for you, going to med school, is looking to upgrade in all areas of her life, including her marriage, but needs financial stability until graduation, so she is willing to stretch this all out and keep s*** vague and you on the hook until she has her ducks in order.

OR she is already sleeping with someone else and is making things intolerable enough that you will be the one to call it quits first or you get so sexualy frustrated that you will take her up on her hall pass suggestion, and then she can justfiably end the marriage because you are a b*****d for leaving her and sleeping around. 

You are a married man with a wife who is acting bizarre...and is giving you nothing to go on...you have every right to rule out an affair...and this drunk cousin calling up seems way out there, but he may actually know more than he is letting on. Some friends/family will give you hints, but often don't want to finger the suspect for fear of coming back on them or breaking someone's confidence. Take what he said as a warning to open your eyes. 

Check cell phone bill/statements...she may have a burner phone though. If you are out of physical contact, a VAR might be too risky and intrusive, but I would start pricing a private investigator.


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## Steve1000

MrPack said:


> Like I said I appreciate what you guys all have to say and I am asking for advice but its sooo hard when I have close friends, family and her family (aside from her drunk cousin) who all tell me I'm being rediculous for thinking she's seeing someone. I dont know who to listen to anymore.


Listen to everyone's perspective and ideas, including your family members, then use all that information to eventually draw your own conclusions. It's a process that takes time. Ultimately, most people here hope you end up ok, regardless of the outcome. Don't feel pressured by anyone else to make a certain decision. I personally hope that I am completely wrong about your wife, and that she is not seeing anyone else and she will refocus on you.


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## phillybeffandswiss

MrPack said:


> Like I said I appreciate what you guys all have to say and I am asking for advice but its sooo hard when I have close friends, family and her family (aside from her drunk cousin) who all uell me I'm being rediculous for thinking she's seeing someone. I dont know who to listen to anymore.


You have to make your own decision and listen. Family and friends are almost always blind or they know more than they are willing to tell.


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## MrPack

Thanks again everyone. As far as financial support. She works part time at the school so she has been living off of that small income and her credit card. The only thing I'm still paying for is car insurance and our phone bill, she has student loans out in her name and her name only so thank god for that. I think in the last 2 weeks she's used our joint account for like $15 at a grocery store. I will certainly take in all that you guys are saying, all of what my friends and family are saying and begin the process of where do I go from here. I guess right now as in today or even this week my head isn't in the right spot to make any big time decisions. I sort of let her have it today when we were texting so I'm hoping that she at least is starting to see that I'm not going to be in limbo much longer but I do know that if things don't change soon It'll have to be me that cuts ties.

I've lost 25lbs since this all started partially from stress and not eating and partially from my new working out routine hopefully that'll help me feel better about myself and relieve at least a bit of stress. 

Also, I'll keep my updates to this thread so its easier to follow. Sorry about that I'm still a newbie.


----------



## honcho

MrPack said:


> When we spoke this morning I told her I dont agree with seeing other people during separation. She then said again that she isnt seeing someone else and I also said I wasnt seeing anyone else. I made it pretty damn clear this morning to her that I do not agree with that thought but I am not prepared enough yet mentally to have the final "showdown" and give her the its my way or the highway talk. Hell I dont even know fully what I want yet.
> 
> I know most of you have had experience in situations like this and you have your suspicions based on my posts but knowing who I am and where I'm at with all of this I know that right now I am not prepared to sit down and tell her the bottom line. She wants her space and I've given that to her, now I feel like I am ready to take advantage of that space and do things for myself and when I'm ready and feeling strong and confident I'll lay it all out on the table.
> 
> As for the phone bill, I've looked at that damn thing almost every day the past couple weeks and have found nothing unusual. Literally all the numbers she sends/receives texts to or calls/receives calls are the girls in her study group, family, friends that she has been talking to for years. Theres one guy from her school that she texts within the same study group text conversations and he likes guys soo...
> 
> I honestly think she made those comments about acting "single" while separated because she wants to be single right now and see if she can handle life without me, does that mean she's found someone else already...I personally dont think so right now but what it does seem to me is that she wants to make herself feel okay with the fact in case she does meet someone while we are separated. And that is just as bad in my mind.
> 
> Like I said I appreciate what you guys all have to say and I am asking for advice but its sooo hard when I have close friends, family and her family (aside from her drunk cousin) who all tell me I'm being rediculous for thinking she's seeing someone. I dont know who to listen to anymore.


She wants to act "single" has little to do with seeing if she handle life without you. She is seeing a new world out there and wants to explore it. Whether she is seeing someone now or has her eye on someone is a matter of debate but one or the other is highly likely. 

This is often the trap of separations, one waits and one has "fun". Hypothetically say she agrees to not see anyone during this separation then breaks it what are you going to do? File for divorce? She isn't working on the marriage and doesn't want to, the very generalities of why you state the separation started, the growing apart etc is exactly what you both are doing now. 

Does where you live have any rules about a year long separation, things like that in order to file for divorce? You stated in a different post I believe you said she moved in with her Mom. Are you sure? My stbx used that same line even though she was living with her boyfriend. 

You state she is in medical school and spend large amounts of time devoted to that and work. If she is seeing someone or has her eye on someone its going to be a classmate. Given the amount of time she is spending with these people she probably isn't using the phone too much. You probably wont find too much via phone records or online activity.


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## LongWalk

Honcho is right of course. it's probably a classmate.



> I've lost 25lbs since this all started partially from stress and not eating and partially from my new working out routine hopefully that'll help me feel better about myself and relieve at least a bit of stress.


Good! You need to build muscle. TAM had a guy named Mach who talked about the roots of female desire. A v-shaped torso turns them on.

No doubt if you got a promotion or a spot in prestigious grad school program, she might well feel you were rising in sex ranking. If you were photographed with an attractive woman who has social standing and she clicked like on your Facebook stuff, she might feel jealousy.

What is going to attract her back to you? Nostalgia? She is not in love or lust. She is studying, meeting her classmates and blocking you out. She may or may not be sexually active with another man, but she is not longing for you.


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## Chaparral

So all she has done is move out? No counseling, no dating (you), no sex(with you)? Are you having discussions in person? There is no real point in a texting, calling relationship. For example, when she talked about dating other people and being "single", you have no idea what she really meant. 80% of human communication is visual in a conversation. You have to be able to see their face and body language to see what is really going on.


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## helolover

Do some semblance of the 180 - this will help you detach. She clearly wants a separation. Give it to her. Stop the phone calls, check ins and minimize your texts. Remember that women and men communicate differently. She's not going to decide to talk and come to the table with a plan to fix or a contract of renewal. Actions are more important, and from what you've divulged of her actions, it appears she's leaving and not returning.

Set boundaries - not ultimatums. Ultimatums force someone to do your will and they come from a position of weakness. She has choices and so do you. Exercise your choices. If you don't like limbo, take steps not to be in limbo. Stop waiting for her to run this thing. 

Dedicate your time to yourself. The only thing you have control over is you. Invest good stuff into you - whatever capacity you have.


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## LongWalk

Right now you are on a schedule to meet as members of the wedding. The best shock you can give her is divorce papers when you meet in person. 

At that meeting make eye contact, tell her you have present for her, hand her them and smile. In your own mind get psyched to say goodbye as if you were Paul Neumann or Clint Eastwood. Leave the stage decisively. 

Move on as if you were certain that your life will be good with or without her. There is some small chance that in a few weeks time she will miss you and reach out. You might get sucked in and dumped again. Extra pain.

If she begs to see you, okay maybe she wants your marriage. 

Her future may turn out to be more or less happy. In 7 years time she maybe futilely seeking IVF treatment while married to a man whose eyes go distant more and often the longer they are together.

One of the key things that you have shared is this:



> Aside from that while talking to my wife today she said it again that she is not seeing anyone right now and then proceeded to say but we are separated and that she consideres that as being *somewhat single*. She says to me that if I go on dates or meet another women that *she doesnt want to know about it* but I dont feel the same way. I'm not doign this separation deal so that we can go out and date people. I konw alot of you will read this post and say oh she's definately seeing another man maybe she is but the one thing that her and I always had was *honesty*. But now she is acting like just because we are separated that we dont have to know everything about what each other is doing.


There is no such thing as "somewhat single". She considers herself a free agent and this discussion was unambiguous. Your inability to actually set down some boundary at this point rendered you powerless in her eyes.

In some way she is honest – she does not dare to live with you and openly bring home lovers or sleep over so that you know she is in someone else's bed. She is not flaunting it in your face. Her infidelity is implied.

Filing for divorce will probably not get her back but there is some chance that it will change her opinion of you.


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## MrPack

Okay so I got a private message from my wifes best friend last night with whom I have been really close to as well since high school before I even met my wife. She made me swear I wouldnt tell my wife that we were talking, we were like best friends for years so it was good to hear from her. She was basically checking up to see if I was okay. I asked her straight up if my wife was seeing someone else or if someone else was in the picture when we separated. She said absolutely not and swore on everything that nothing was going on with another guy. She basically told me what my wife told me the last time we talked. She wants to be out there on her own sort of like proving to herself that she can survive without someone supporting her. She told me my wife seems like she still needs more time which I already knew that but also told me that she was doing better in school and recently got promoted from a TA to TA director. She told me my wife seems happy and that she is so focused on school and her part time work that she isnt even thinking about our marriage right now other than seeing a counselor once every other week which she's been doing for months anyway before we separated.

With that said everytime I do talk to my wife which I havent in a couple days because I'm trying the whole 180 approach she doesnt indicate ANYTHING as far as a time frame of when she wants to work on things or even if she wants to. I'm so lost and confused. Do I go for the legal separation next? I'm slowly starting to work on myself but it's so hard waking up everyday alone especially when I feel like she is thriving without me. I'm starting to realize that she has changed A LOT over the past year and is someone I dont even know anymore. I've done all the digging I can to find out if there is someone else and I havent come up with any evidence at all! But I cant stop thinking about the possibility. The whole "we're basically single" comment she made is just imbedded into my mind. I really feel like she has checked out and her telling me "we're basically single" is her making herself feel okay if someone better does come along while were separated. I dont know how to move forward from here. Everytime I take one step forward I feel like I take two steps back.


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## helolover

The only way through this, is to go through this. Set a deadline for your limbo. 60-90 days is a good start. That gives your 180 time to sink in (mostly for you) and gives you an opportunity to think things through, detach emotionally, gan perspective and take control. In that timeframe, focus on your work, hobbies and friendships. I think of this as a firmware update. You have extra time to eat well, work out (lift weights) and take care of yourself. At the end of this period, your firmware is updated and you have better tools and perspective to move forward in a less attached and emotional manner - a newer you from a position of strength. Battling this now when you are feeling low, emotional and reactive is bad juju. 

It will be hard and you will feel anguish at times. Breaking up is usually hard to do. You've been given a lot of good advice on this thread and eventually it will sink in. You have limited bandwidth right now to take in the fire hose of perspective you have been given.

You need to be in self-survival mode. Live incrementally - day by day, hour by hour, whatever it takes. its fine to feel sad and process that for yourself, but don't show it to her. You don't want or need pity. You need strength. Get a breakup buddy - a male friend of yours who will listen to you vent about the separation and be a sounding board if you take it to divorce. Do not confide or seek comfort from your wife. Unhook your emotional hose from her. You need to meet all of your own needs. You can do this. You did it before she was in your life. 

You seem to be your wife's plan B or C. That speaks volumes. She has checked out and has given you permission to date other women. Get an appointment with a lawyer to at least find out what the process is and your rights are in your state/prov. They will tell you about separation and divorce in your locality.


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## jb02157

MrPack said:


> I talked to my wife today about some problems I had with how our separation is going. We are coming on to week 4 and have yet to discuss a timeline or plan as to when/how we can try and fix things. She still doesn't know when she'll be ready to work on things or go the other route. I told her how mad I've been lately feeling like we are just in a state of limbo with all of this and she says she understands and is sorry but she isn't ready to make any decisions yet.
> 
> It's hard because she is considerably more busy than I am since she is in med school right now and I just work a normal 9-5 job. I understand that its going to take her longer to figure out what she wants to do but it's not easy. I also understand that we are in a real separation but I'm really struggling to keep a positive routine going without her in my life. One day I have thoughts of "screw this I'm tired of waiting around for her" then I have I thoughts of "I will do anything to reconcile no matter how long it takes".
> 
> My question I guess is how long is too long for a separation??


She just wants you to continue paying her expenses at Med School for as long as she can get you to do it. It would be best for you to divorce her now.


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## MrPack

helolover said:


> The only way through this, is to go through this. Set a deadline for your limbo. 60-90 days is a good start. That gives your 180 time to sink in (mostly for you) and gives you an opportunity to think things through, detach emotionally, gan perspective and take control. In that timeframe, focus on your work, hobbies and friendships. I think of this as a firmware update. You have extra time to eat well, work out (lift weights) and take care of yourself. At the end of this period, your firmware is updated and you have better tools and perspective to move forward in a less attached and emotional manner - a newer you from a position of strength. Battling this now when you are feeling low, emotional and reactive is bad juju.
> 
> It will be hard and you will feel anguish at times. Breaking up is usually hard to do. You've been given a lot of good advice on this thread and eventually it will sink in. You have limited bandwidth right now to take in the fire hose of perspective you have been given.
> 
> You need to be in self-survival mode. Live incrementally - day by day, hour by hour, whatever it takes. its fine to feel sad and process that for yourself, but don't show it to her. You don't want or need pity. You need strength. Get a breakup buddy - a male friend of yours who will listen to you vent about the separation and be a sounding board if you take it to divorce. Do not confide or seek comfort from your wife. Unhook your emotional hose from her. You need to meet all of your own needs. You can do this. You did it before she was in your life.
> 
> You seem to be your wife's plan B or C. That speaks volumes. She has checked out and has given you permission to date other women. Get an appointment with a lawyer to at least find out what the process is and your rights are in your state/prov. They will tell you about separation and divorce in your locality.


Thanks for your commments/advice. I do have a very close buddy that has been a life saver to say the least. Sometimes I wonder if I'm reaching out to him too much. Anyway I do have plans within the next couple weeks to talk to a lawyer about my options. I've started golfing again, working out and just doign things that normally would have been judged by my wife. Sometimes I feel awesome that I can basically do whatever I want right now but then the memories come back (hard to fight).


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## Marduk

MrPack said:


> Okay so I got a private message from my wifes best friend last night with whom I have been really close to as well since high school before I even met my wife. She made me swear I wouldnt tell my wife that we were talking, we were like best friends for years so it was good to hear from her. She was basically checking up to see if I was okay. I asked her straight up if my wife was seeing someone else or if someone else was in the picture when we separated. She said absolutely not and swore on everything that nothing was going on with another guy. She basically told me what my wife told me the last time we talked. She wants to be out there on her own sort of like proving to herself that she can survive without someone supporting her. She told me my wife seems like she still needs more time which I already knew that but also told me that she was doing better in school and recently got promoted from a TA to TA director. She told me my wife seems happy and that she is so focused on school and her part time work that she isnt even thinking about our marriage right now other than seeing a counselor once every other week which she's been doing for months anyway before we separated.
> 
> With that said everytime I do talk to my wife which I havent in a couple days because I'm trying the whole 180 approach she doesnt indicate ANYTHING as far as a time frame of when she wants to work on things or even if she wants to. I'm so lost and confused. Do I go for the legal separation next? I'm slowly starting to work on myself but it's so hard waking up everyday alone especially when I feel like she is thriving without me. I'm starting to realize that she has changed A LOT over the past year and is someone I dont even know anymore. I've done all the digging I can to find out if there is someone else and I havent come up with any evidence at all! But I cant stop thinking about the possibility. The whole "we're basically single" comment she made is just imbedded into my mind. I really feel like she has checked out and her telling me "we're basically single" is her making herself feel okay if someone better does come along while were separated. I dont know how to move forward from here. Everytime I take one step forward I feel like I take two steps back.


OK dude.

There are two options here.

Option one is that everything is as she says. No other dude and this is a giant mind-**** on her behalf to prove to herself that she can stand on her own. While you stand there like a gentleman with the door held open for her to return.

That basically means that she is a child and you are her safety net. Safety nets get used when people fall. If she doesn't fall, she's gone. And if she returns, it will be with a new game plan to not fall next time.

And you will still be there with your hat in hand standing on a giant welcome mat, right?

What you have to do is take away the safety net.

The other option, of course, is that she isn't telling this friend.

My ex didn't tell ANYONE including her best friend that she was f'ing this other guy. It came out after we were separated and she went on a double date with the new guy and the new guy slipped up and talked about things they had done together on such and such a date... which was when we were still together.

So don't expect the truth.

What you have to do in that situation is the same as the first.

Take away the safety net.

And, FWIW, there's a world of difference between "I'm not seeing anyone right now" and "I won't see anyone."

And her telling you that she doesn't want to know is her telling you what she plans on doing if she does see someone.

Do what you will. But what I think you should do is draw up a separation agreement and give it to her. And a date, not more than a week or two out, where you need an answer if she's ever coming back or not.


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## toonaive

Be exceedingly careful on what information you give to your in-laws. Blood really is thicker than water! Listen closely what they say, but, do not give them anything. After a while, you may want to give serious consideration to severing all communications with them. In the end, they will always side with her if she gets in trouble with her decisions. Choose your friends now very wisely. Your in-laws should not be among them. Sorry, but, that is just he way it is.


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## MrPack

toonaive said:


> Be exceedingly careful on what information you give to your in-laws. Blood really is thicker than water! Listen closely what they say, but, do not give them anything. After a while, you may want to give serious consideration to severing all communications with them. In the end, they will always side with her if she gets in trouble with her decisions. Choose your friends now very wisely. Your in-laws should not be among them. Sorry, but, that is just he way it is.


I havent spoken directly to her mom or step dad since this all started. After that drunk phone call I received from her idiot cousin I cut ties with him as well. I told hime to not call or text me anymore because I have my own support system and do not need outside influences fogging up this already hellish situation. 

Right now the only advice I will take is from TAM, my direct family, and my close friends. But like I said I'm starting the 180 so I've had it with people trying to give me advice or approaching me uninvited. I will only listen when I have initiated the subject.


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## toonaive

Yea, really wish I had TAM to consult when I had my first Rodeo with my almost XW. Fast forward 9 years, everything is now worse, and more expensive. Along the way, I think I made all the mistakes listed in TAM and probably came up with a few new ones. 

During the coming months, you will gets inundated with information. Some solicited some not. Understand one thing! You make the decisions now! Very few, if any,decisions will need to be made in haste. Think on them. Take whatever time you need to sift through any conflicting information. Listen to your gut feeling/voice. If you able, defer what you can to your attorney. Lighten your load as much as you can and march forward to a new future, with new experiences, and people waiting for you.


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## MrPack

I've had a tough morning today trying to stick with the 180 approach and reached out to my sister for some reassurance. She sent me this quote which I found perfectly fitting for my situation and hope this can help someone else on TAM going through their own struggles.

"IT ALL BEGINS AND ENDS IN YOUR MIND. WHAT YOU GIVE POWER TO. HAS POWER OVER YOU. IF YOU ALLOW IT"


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## LongWalk

Suppose your wife is not cheating. Do you accept that she is thinking about her next relationship with someone new? Further when she does think of you, her perception is that you are a problem from which the separation should lead to divorce?

She doesn't send you emails with any ambiguity. She is not worried about your wellbeing.

Waiting for her to file for divorce is limbo that delays your healing.

Can you describe how you supported her when she decided to apply to med school?


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## MrPack

LongWalk said:


> Suppose your wife is not cheating. Do you accept that she is thinking about her next relationship with someone new? Further when she does think of you, her perception is that you are a problem from which the separation should lead to divorce?
> 
> She doesn't send you emails with any ambiguity. She is not worried about your wellbeing.
> 
> Waiting for her to file for divorce is limbo that delays your healing.
> 
> Can you describe how you supported her when she decided to apply to med school?


Hell, I cant lie even I've thought about a relationship with someone other than my wife throughout the last couple years that we've been struggling. Not sure where the email thing came from but yea its been days since either one of us has reached out to eachother. Every relationship and or breakup is different, right now I'm not prepared to take the next step straight to divorce not because I'm holding onto hope for dear life but because divorce is a really big deal to me and I need time to process that potential reality. 

As far as support when she decided to apply for med school I was upset at first because it was just another delay before she started working a real job and bringing in decent money.We talked about how difficult it would be on both of us especially our marriage and I blew it off and just looked at it as something we'd get used too. But in the end I feel I was always fully supporting her decisions... most of the time. I dunno, I've started to realize that I may have a control problem with certain things which may have lead to where we are now. But then again I have a million thoughts running through my head lately.


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## LongWalk

MrPack said:


> Hell, I cant lie even I've thought about a relationship with someone other than my wife throughout the last couple years that we've been struggling. Not sure where the email thing came from but yea its been days since either one of us has reached out to eachother. Every relationship and or breakup is different, *right now I'm not prepared to take the next step straight to divorce not because I'm holding onto hope for dear life but because divorce is a really big deal to me and I need time to process that potential reality*.


Pack,
My goal in suggesting alternatives to you is not to rush you to divorce, something that you would prefer to avoid, but to maximize a positive outcome for you. Filing for divorce quickly sends a signal to you wife that you are capable of acting resolutely. You are not co-dependent to the extent that you are paralyzed and merely waiting for the ax to fall. Instead of forcing her to summon her willpower to end it, she will find the tension gone suddenly and unexpectedly.

If you wait during a long separation, your place in her emotional hardwiring will be cold. It already is. But if you remove what is positive in your relationship now while your life together is not ancient history it is more likely that you will create an emotional impact. If you wait weeks longer your connection will have fizzled out. You are also more and more likely to compete with other men. You wife is now telling more and more people that she is separated. So, even if she has not yet slept with other men, among her classmates the word is already out that she is available.

Guys are likely coffee dating her or more. Study buddy, pizza, come up for a cup of tea, stay the night. It doesn't take long.

Remember if you file and mail her the papers, she will have to feel, "oh, wow, he is divorcing me!" Maybe she is not entirely ready for that idea. If you wait, it will be set in concrete. It may already be an ardent desire of hers.

There was a guy here, an artist and college lecturer... arg... his name escapes me at the moment, but he was in a separation like yours for ages. He agonized over his WAW but in the end it was divorce. She fed his cat from time to time but she did not love him. Ardendt... could that have been his name? I will check.



> As far as support when she decided to apply for med school I was upset at first because it was just another delay before she started working a real job and bringing in decent money.We talked about how difficult it would be on both of us especially our marriage and I blew it off and just looked at it as something we'd get used too. But in the end I feel I was always fully supporting her decisions... most of the time. I dunno, I've started to realize that I may have a control problem with certain things which may have lead to where we are now. But then again I have a million thoughts running through my head lately.


Of course her decision to go to medical school increased the likelihood of divorce for several reasons: the hours, the on call situations, the social status elevation.


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## helolover

Arendt


----------



## VFW

You asked: My question I guess is how long is too long for a separation? The answer is: when you have had enough and are ready to move on with your life. You have said you won't wait too long for her to make a decision, while other have suggested you wait a year. I will tell you this, it doesn't matter either way. Medical school goes on for years not weeks and month, then progress to internships, which keeps on going. This is way of life and will not be changing as long as she pursues this way of life. The process is going to take awhile and you are going to be going through a roller coaster of emotions, but I get the feeling that you will in due time. Is she seeing someone else? I haven't the vaguest idea, you are on an infidelity site, so don't be surprised that you read about it in lots of posts or that others suggest it as a possibility. My guess would be that she is very self absorbed in her studies and study group. She really doesn't have time for a real relationship among all she is doing but wants the freedom to hookup, if Mr Right or at least Mr Right Now comes along for an evening of passion. If you press her she will most likely deny it on the premise of not wanting to hurt you, thus she wants the separation as a fall back stance "well we were on a break". 

My advise is this......concentrate on you for now. Keep up the exercise regimen to help with the stress. Look to invest time in a hobby that you have ignored or start one you have always wanted to do. Look to take a class that would be beneficial to you for work or just something you are interest in learning. Reading the classics, volunteering time to help others all are worthwhile pursuits. Get so busy living life that you don't have time worrying about hers. I know this is not what you wanted or had dreamed of when you married, but I get the feeling it was inevitable and eventually you will have to come to grips with the situation. Best wishes to you and your family.


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## LongWalk

helolover said:


> Arendt


Thanks. Yes, Arendt's thread is worth reading.


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## MEM2020

Mr pack,
The issue is not separation. I firmly believe in giving someone space if they need it. The core issue is this 'don't ask don't tell' policy she has adopted. 

That mindset opens the door for her to engage - guilt free - in the open ended pursuit of an upgrade. That pursuit is diametrically opposed to the concept of marriage. And tolerating it means that you are agreeable to a marriage that is only going to last until one of you finds someone better. 

Space - sure. Acting like she is single while separated - no way.

If it was me I'd tell her: 
In your heart you seem to want to be single. I accept that. Let's make it official so you can do whatever you want to do with a clear conscience. And FWIW - if asked why we parted ways, I will limit myself to saying: irreconcilable differences. I hope you find someone you are compatible with. 




MrPack said:


> Hell, I cant lie even I've thought about a relationship with someone other than my wife throughout the last couple years that we've been struggling. Not sure where the email thing came from but yea its been days since either one of us has reached out to eachother. Every relationship and or breakup is different, right now I'm not prepared to take the next step straight to divorce not because I'm holding onto hope for dear life but because divorce is a really big deal to me and I need time to process that potential reality.
> 
> As far as support when she decided to apply for med school I was upset at first because it was just another delay before she started working a real job and bringing in decent money.We talked about how difficult it would be on both of us especially our marriage and I blew it off and just looked at it as something we'd get used too. But in the end I feel I was always fully supporting her decisions... most of the time. I dunno, I've started to realize that I may have a control problem with certain things which may have lead to where we are now. But then again I have a million thoughts running through my head lately.


----------



## LongWalk

MrPack said:


> Hell, I cant lie even I've thought about a relationship with someone other than my wife throughout the last couple years that we've been struggling. Not sure where the email thing came from but yea its been days since either one of us has reached out to eachother. Every relationship and or breakup is different, *right now I'm not prepared to take the next step straight to divorce not because I'm holding onto hope for dear life but because divorce is a really big deal to me and I need time to process that potential reality*.


Pack,
My goal in suggesting alternatives to you is not to rush you to divorce, something that you would prefer to avoid, but to maximize a positive outcome for you. Filing for divorce quickly sends a signal to you wife that you are capable of acting resolutely. You are not co-dependent to the extent that you are paralyzed and merely waiting for the ax to fall. Instead of forcing her to summon her willpower to end it, she will find the tension gone suddenly and unexpectedly.

If you wait during a long separation, your place in her emotional hardwiring will be cold. It already is. But if you remove what is positive in your relationship now while your life together is not ancient history it is more likely that you will create an emotional impact. If you wait weeks longer your connection will have fizzled out. You are also more and more likely to compete with other men. You wife is now telling more and more people that she is separated. So, even if she has not yet slept with other men, among her classmates the word is already out that she is available.

Guys are likely coffee dating her or more. Study buddy, pizza, come up for a cup of tea, stay the night. It doesn't take long.

Remember if you file and mail her the papers, she will have to feel, "oh, wow, he is divorcing me!" Maybe she is not entirely ready for that idea. If you wait, it will be set in concrete. It may already be an ardent desire of hers.

There was a guy here, an artist and college lecturer... arg... his name escapes me at the moment, but he was in a separation like yours for ages. He agonized over his WAW but in the end it was divorce. She fed his cat from time to time but she did not love him. Ardendt... could that have been his name? I will check.



> As far as support when she decided to apply for med school I was upset at first because it was just another delay before she started working a real job and bringing in decent money.We talked about how difficult it would be on both of us especially our marriage and I blew it off and just looked at it as something we'd get used too. But in the end I feel I was always fully supporting her decisions... most of the time. I dunno, I've started to realize that I may have a control problem with certain things which may have lead to where we are now. But then again I have a million thoughts running through my head lately.


Of course her decision to go to medical school increased the likelihood of divorce for several reasons: the hours, the on call situations, the social status elevation.


----------



## Satya

I find it concerning that first her cousin, and then her best friend come to you in confidence to "check up" on you, even though you don't keep in regular contact with either.

Smells like guilty consciences... But that's just me.


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## MrPack

Stayed at my parents house Saturday this weekend becaue I was with friends and didnt want to drive all the way back to my house after having a few drinks. I woke up early Sunday morning to see I had 2 missed calls and a text from my wife. Saturday night she was working a gala event for med students and doctors. By the time she finished tearing down the gala it was midnight, she drove all the way to her moms house about 40 minutes away only to find her mom had locked the door from the garage to the house because she thought my wife was staying with friends for the night. My wife then started callling her girlfriends but it was already after midnight so she couldnt get a hold of anyone. Long story short her only other option was to stay at our house. She was calling and texting me late that night asking if I was there and that she had nowhere else to go. Since I didnt see the calls or text she just went to the house, saw I wasnt home and slept there for the night. I called her Sunday morning after seeing the texts and missed calls (I should have just sent her a text saying "ok"). She said sorry that she had to stay at the house and that she doesnt expect that she can just come whenever she wants and that she understands that she needs to let me know when she comes to the house for any reason.

I was temped to say something along the lines of "oh you want this separation so you can be independant and on your own, well how'd that work out for ya Saturday night when you had no where to stay???" I refrained and didnt say anything along those lines. But this was the 3rd time she's been to the house in the past 2 weeks to pick up some clothes and other things, but she keeps forgetting her bridsmaids dress for a wedding she's in this coming weekend. It's frustrating because I'm trying to do things for me now and leave her alone and not worry about her but its like she's purposely "forgetting" things so she has a reason to come back to the house. 

She leaves Friday morning to head out of state for her cousins wedding. My question is do I text her asking when she's going to pick up her dress or do I just leave it alone and let her worry about that. I just dont want her to call me at the last minute one of these nights this week saying she needs to come get some things. I'd rather she did it when I wasnt home, I'm not ready to have a conversation with her about stuff it'lll just be awkward.


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## MrPack

Received a text a few minutes ago from my W. She leaves Friday for her cousins wedding out of state, she sent me a text telling me that she needed to stop by the house Thursday morning to pick up the dress and some other things. I simpy replied with sounds good. Then she asked if I had seen a particular pair of her shoes at the house and I said no. She says okay. And that was it...very generic and cut and dry. I was really temped to keep the text conversation going but I refrained. This is hard... I struggle off and on everyday mainly in the mornings with missing her and then with anger regarding our separation and how its going. My Counselor suggested that I dont completely cut off communication yet even though I told him the majority of the time I'm the one that has to reach out and I'm sick of it. 

I've known my wife for over 11 years and she is very good and hiding her emotions and acting like she is perfectly fine even when her world is crumbling around her, I on the other hand am the complete oposite. I'm just sick of feeling like this, I want to be happy again. I have mixed emotions about whether or not theres even a glimmer of hope for us. People keep telling me to not give up yet but she is taking longer than I am to get to a point to even want to discuss the possibility of getting help on our marriage. I'm now convinced that there is NOT another guy and that she is just lost and has totally changed as a person over the past year. This is scaring her and has built up this enourmous amount of guilt in her head because the future that we agreed upon doesnt look like something she wants anymore. This makes me sick to my stomach and very very sad. 

I know it's only been a month but what if things do go sour and we divorce, what will I do? Will I ever meet another woman who can make me happy and feel good about my life? I'm feeling hopeless...


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## LongWalk

What are your feelings about the wedding now? Do you want to be there feeling uncomfortable because she dumping you? 

Have you considered having the divorce papers ready for her so that she has bear the failure feeling under pressure?


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## MrPack

LongWalk said:


> What are your feelings about the wedding now? Do you want to be there feeling uncomfortable because she dumping you?
> 
> Have you considered having the divorce papers ready for her so that she has bear the failure feeling under pressure?


The wedding she is going to this weekend isnt the same one we both will be at, that one is in two weeks. I AM NOT serving her divorce papers at my best friends wedding, I know your trying to help but that would be very disrepectful to my friends who are getting married. I dont see that as being the right time or place whatsoever.

With that said my mind hasnt totally gotten to that point of divorce yet, yea it crossing my mind alot recently but I'm not in that position yet. I need to be fully ready to do that. If I filed now I feel like my head wouldnt be in the right spot to make all the neccessary decisions that come with that.

I had another session with my counselor yesterday and he agrees that it is too early to really consider filing for divorce. I have too much going on in my mind to go there yet.


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## Chaparral

Ask your wife if she is ok? IF she says yes, ask her if she is sure. Sounds like she is missing you.


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## MrPack

Chaparral said:


> Ask your wife if she is ok? IF she says yes, ask her if she is sure. Sounds like she is missing you.


What gives you the impression that she may be missing me?


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## LongWalk

Why does your wife miss you? You were in a codependent relationship. You accept things that were perhaps unacceptable simply to preserve your marriage. It is great that she wants to be doctor, but you cannot have children for along time 4 years of med school, one year of internship and they two more years of specialization. My SIL is a board certified pediatrician. She never practiced. My brother is a surgeon. SIL wanted to be a SAHM. She is very engaged in my three nephews sports and study, but they are in school all day. She could work part time and rake in big money. She wants to have this relationship in which she is running the family.

My brother could never cheat on her because she is watching him constantly. Maintaining their marriage is a clear goal in her mind. There is no freedom because her family background in Caribbean Indian. My brother is half Chinese. Divorce is not very accepted these cultures. Codependence is.

You mentioned that you might be controlling but in reality your relationship has to prioritize her education. Don't forget doctors get treated strangely by the general public. They garner a certain amount of adulation. This can have inflated your wife's self image to the extent that she feels you are no longer her social equal. So yes the codependent individual misses you; the one who is changing social status is trying to dump you. She is in a confusing transition.

Then she asked if I had seen a particular pair of her shoes at the house and I said no. She says okay. And that was it...very generic and cut and dry. I was really temped to keep the text conversation going but I refrained. This is hard... I struggle off and on everyday mainly in the mornings with missing her and then with anger regarding our separation and how its going. My Counselor suggested that I dont completely cut off communication yet even though I told him the majority of the time I'm the one that has to reach out and I'm sick of it. 

I've known my wife for over 11 years and she is very good and hiding her emotions and acting like she is perfectly fine even when her world is crumbling around her, I on the other hand am the complete oposite. I'm just sick of feeling like this, I want to be happy again. I have mixed emotions about whether or not theres even a glimmer of hope for us. People keep telling me to not give up yet but she is taking longer than I am to get to a point to even want to discuss the possibility of getting help on our marriage. I'm now convinced that there is NOT another guy and that she is just lost and has totally changed as a person over the past year. This is scaring her and has built up this enourmous amount of guilt in her head because the future that we agreed upon doesnt look like something she wants anymore. This makes me sick to my stomach and very very sad. 

I know it's only been a month but what if things do go sour and we divorce, what will I do? Will I ever meet another woman who can make me happy and feel good about my life? I'm feeling hopeless...


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## LongWalk

Why does your wife miss you? You were in a codependent relationship. You accept things that were perhaps unacceptable simply to preserve your marriage. It is great that she wants to be doctor, but you cannot have children for along time 4 years of med school, one year of internship and they two more years of specialization. My SIL is a board certified pediatrician. She never practiced. My brother is a surgeon. SIL wanted to be a SAHM. She is very engaged in my three nephews sports and study, but they are in school all day. She could work part time and rake in big money. She wants to have this relationship in which she is running the family.

My brother could never cheat on her because she is watching him constantly. Maintaining their marriage is a clear goal in her mind. There is no freedom because her family background in Caribbean Indian. My brother is half Chinese. Divorce is not very accepted these cultures. Codependence is.

You mentioned that you might be controlling but in reality your relationship has to prioritize her education. Don't forget doctors get treated strangely by the general public. They garner a certain amount of adulation. This can have inflated your wife's self image to the extent that she feels you are no longer her social equal. So yes the codependent individual misses you; the one who is changing social status is trying to dump you. She is in a confusing transition.



> Then she asked if I had seen a particular pair of her shoes at the house...


This a very codependent expression. Why the f' should you be paying attention to her shoes? The lack of empathy is distinguishes the egoism of her mindset. Your observation is acute here.



> I was really temped to keep the text conversation going but I refrained. This is hard..


Well, done. You are learning.



> ... the majority of the time I'm the one that has to reach out and I'm sick of it.


As GutPunch says, if it hurts don't do it.



> I've known my wife for over 11 years and she is very good and hiding her emotions and acting like she is perfectly fine even when her world is crumbling around her, I on the other hand am the complete oposite. I'm just sick of feeling like this, I want to be happy again. I have mixed emotions about whether or not theres even a glimmer of hope for us. People keep telling me to not give up yet but she is taking longer than I am to get to a point to even want to discuss the possibility of getting help on our marriage. *I'm now convinced that there is NOT another guy* and that she is just lost and has totally changed as a person over the past year.


If she is as you say lacking in inner confidence and integrity, she is very likely to want another relationship to replace the unhealthy one she has with you. That is why cheating is very likely, though you don't know with whom she is involved. It is possible that it is only an EA.



> This is scaring her and has built up this enourmous amount of guilt in her head because the future that we agreed upon doesnt look like something she wants anymore. This makes me sick to my stomach and very very sad.


What in the future doesn't jive? Children? Time together?

When I was freshman in college a couple of dorm mates got summer jobs scooping ice cream. I went a couple of times to visit them at work. They said that the manager's wife didn't love him. She used to come in when his work day ended. I saw her. She was very beautiful. The look of distain for her husband was so evident. Men with slicker tongues and thicker wallets must have undermined her respect for him, although who knows, might once have been a happy together guy.

The only way to make an impression on someone who is in control because they are the desired part is to change the dynamics. Filing for divorce could be action but it could also a gesture of desperation to get her attention. As to making people uncomfortable, well your wife is doing it to you. How does she expect you to feel going a wedding as your own marriage failing. The irony of it is a torment. That is why you should file for D before the wedding. You are going to feel wretched standing there with all those people and not knowing what constitutes an inappropriate proximity to your own wife.

Are you supposed to offer her a glass of champagne or is that needy? Are you supposed to make eye contact or avoid looking at her? You are a masochist is you go through with this.



> I know it's only been a month but what if things do go sour and we divorce, what will I do? Will I ever meet another woman who can make me happy and feel good about my life? I'm feeling hopeless...


You need to think about the funny and absurd, so that you laugh and smile in spite of your pain. One way to distance yourself from the pain is to imagine telling an audience about how it feels.

Are you still wearing your wedding ring. Will you wear it to the wedding? Is your wife wearing hers?


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## Chaparral

I also think she was thinking you might be spending the night with someone when you didn't answer her calls. It seems to me she's making excuses to come by the house and get in touch over trivial things.

I would wait until the wedding and see how she handles being around you. If she ignores you I would lower the boom. If she genuinely enjoys being around you, not just for show, that would be interesting.

Does the folks at the wedding know you're separated?


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## MrPack

Are you still wearing your wedding ring. Will you wear it to the wedding? Is your wife wearing hers?[/QUOTE]

Last time we saw eachother which was about 2 weeks ago she was still wearing hers and I was wearing mine. But your right in asking that question, if she shows up at the wedding not wearing hers than why would I wear mine? How do I know though? Do I straight up ask her "hey are you planning on wearing your ring at the wedding"??


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## MrPack

Chaparral said:


> I also think she was thinking you might be spending the night with someone when you didn't answer her calls. It seems to me she's making excuses to come by the house and get in touch over trivial things.
> 
> I would wait until the wedding and see how she handles being around you. If she ignores you I would lower the boom. If she genuinely enjoys being around you, not just for show, that would be interesting.
> 
> Does the folks at the wedding know you're separated?


Yes some of the people at the wedding know what is going on. Mainly just my buddies and some of her girlfriends that are also a part of the wedding.


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## Chaparral

Wear your wedding ring. If she doesn't have hers on slip yours in your pocket. It will be interesting to see how she behaves once the champagne/drinks start flowing and everyone is dancing at the reception. She should be quite horney by now. If she doesn't maul you then, I would divorce her for that.


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## MrPack

intheory said:


> After you guys divorce, who is going to pay for her to go to medical school?
> 
> Is she currently working to pay her cost of living expenses. I don't see how you can work enough hours to pay half of all the bills, and attend medical school classes, and do the ENORMOUS amount of studying that she must do in order to succeed.
> 
> So, are you footing all the bills for this? If not, good.
> 
> If yes, why? And are you going to continue? Will she refund you for what you have contributed to her education so far, if she divorces you?


IF we get divorced thats her problem to figure out how to survive and pay for expenses while she finishes school. Wont be my issue. 

She has student loans I do not pay for any of her school bills and my name is not on the student loan. Yes she is working while going to med school, more hours now because she moved out of the house and is not relying on me to provide right now.


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## Chaparral

I may be mistaken but financially it doesn't seem like you were actually helping very much with her medical school costs. Was she going to school, studying, and working before the separation? That sounds like an awfully big load to carry.

Do you make enough to support the two of you without her working?


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## LongWalk

According to this article the divorce rate for med students is high, ranging between 20 percent and 50 percent, depending on specialty.



> For physicians-in-training, this schism between home and work is especially sharp. The hospital literally becomes home for many medical students when they are on the wards, and it remains their permanent residence throughout much of residency. This lifestyle creates problems when these physicians eventually return to a more normal lifestyle with more subsequent hours at home with their spouses. Many physicians may feel more comfortable at work in the hospital culture, and the familial home may seem like a burden or a game with shifting rules and expectations that may seem to change daily. Spouses might feel abandoned by the years of long hours and the seeming lack of desire of their physician spouses to return home. This is especially a problem for spouses who are not a part of the medical field themselves and who do not understand why the hospital is so important in their significant others' lives. Many couples, however, who are both in the profession, may also suffer because they each establish the hospital as “home” instead of forming their own distinct marriage culture separate from the hospital.


So even if you reconcile now, the trouble may not be over.


----------



## MrPack

Chaparral said:


> I may be mistaken but financially it doesn't seem like you were actually helping very much with her medical school costs. Was she going to school, studying, and working before the separation? That sounds like an awfully big load to carry.
> 
> Do you make enough to support the two of you without her working?


Before the separation I we were basically living off my income alone. I was paying all the bills aside from the little bit she was making working part time at the school. Since the separation she has added more hours. Yes I make enough to support us both. I feel like she's in this mindset right now to prove to herself that she can do this on her own...along with other things I already touched on. I've sacraficed A LOT to support her and wait for her to finally find what she wanted to do and pursue med school. And to my knowledge I never really voiced any resentment, I do have some but I feel like I was always pretty good and supporting her the best way I knew how. 

I remember when we first started getting serious years ago she made some comment that her mom always tought her to take care of herself because you never know whats going to happen. I think that always stuck in her mind hence her wanting to become a doctor and now wanting to prove that she can survive on her own if she decided to go that route.


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## MrPack

Bugged said:


> Mr Pack, I'm sorry you're in this situation..
> you wife though seems a decent person..she's not lying to you, she's not taking advantage of you..she's made a tough decision..I think she might be overwhelmed..the med school, her job, studying....maybe she felt like she didn't have the energy to work on the marriage right now...give her her space..give her time...it doesn't look like she's doing this to find someone else...I think she's been very honest...both with you and herself..
> I think first of all you should try and undesrtand what your feelings are...are you sure YOU want to be married to her? What if she decides she doesn't want children..would it be a deal breaker? She probably feels guilty about that too...
> Don't be clingy or needy but ler her know what you feel..don't just show hurt and resentment...let her go..is she still loves you she'll come back to you...if not..better to know that now.
> Also, if you divorce..do you think you could still be her friend? I would.
> Good luck
> :smile2:


I think your correct in saying that she doesnt have the energy to work on a marriage right now. I feel like this separation was about proving to herself that she could survive on her own and also her being scared about having the huge load stress from med school then a marriage and also the thought of the future with or without kids. The problem is time, she doesnt have much of it to work on a broken marriage right now, I on the other hand want to work on things but she isnt ready yet. We both did a horrible job of tip toeing around our issues for so long even before med school and now we are here.


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## MrPack

I'll try to keep this short. I posted a while back about my best friends wedding comming up actually a week from this Saturday. Both my wife and I are in the wedding party. Initially after we decided to separate we talked about just going to the wedding like normal and try to have fun like we would with friends but obviously not exactly the same as we would if we were happily married. Fast forward a couple weeks, we had a little spat, it wasnt really a fight but more of us disagreeing on things and me being too pushy about our separation (I have since backed way off and have been giving her space). After this little spat we agreed that we would not stay in a hotel room together during the wedding night and that I would stay in a room with buddies and that she would stay in a room with some of the girls from the wedding party. Initially the plan was that couples would pair up and stay in rooms together. 

We talked a bit yesterday about "business" type stuff and then small talk about whats going on with my work and her school. Then started talking about the wedding coming up and agreed that we will NOT ignore eachother or avoid eachother and that we would try to make the best out of the night considering our situation. She made a comment that if it were up to her we could "hang out like normal at the wedding". I asked her what she meant by this and she waited about an hour to reply back to the text saying "I dunno...like close friends". 

So I'm dealing with a wife who seems to be making excuses to come to the house randomly to pick up stuff, she's going back and forth on expectations at the wedding. First wants to act like nothing is wrong at the wedding, then act like we cant be around eachother much, then being civil, to now wanting to act like "close friends". I just dont know what to make of this.

I need advice on something, I have a desire to maybe ask her if she wants to go back to staying in a room together for the wedding night. Would that be bad?? I really dont know what her answer would be but part of me wants to throw the idea out there. What do you all think? I'm sure if she says no its not a good idea right now I'll probably feel like crap for a while but what if she wants too and I never asked? What do I do???


----------



## MrPack

Bugged said:


> Don't do it.
> Don't put pressure on her...it's the pressure that she couldn't take anymore I think..it's just too much..all those things together...
> Dont' do anything that might be interpreted by her like 'have you decided yet?'...
> Be her friend..be sure you remain on her radar (if you want her to come back to you)...keep in touch, show her that you care but don't be clingy...if you miss her tell her..but not like 'I miss you, have you decided about our marriage?'. Just I miss you..things like these..*no strings attached*...
> I don't think ignoring her is a good choice..she has many things on her mind...maybe ask her once or twice a week if she wants to hang out with you..like a friend..just be her friend.


How do I stay on her radar without looking clingy or like I'm pushing? Realistically how often should I contact her? We do have plans to meet up and discuss our situation in a few weeks once her finals are over. Figured that would be best so she doesn't have finals on her mind.


----------



## MrPack

Bugged said:


> Not too often...how often are you contacting her now?
> I would just send her a text once or twice a week..especially if you're doing something you think she might enjoy too...
> I dunno something like..
> ' I think I'll go to the Jap restaurant for dinner, I thought maybe you would you like to join me? if you don't there's no problem really.:grin2:'
> 
> you know..casual things like these..just for fun..not to talk about your marriage or you problems but just because you enjoy each other's company... and please, please..if you meet her try not to look anxious of freaked out by the situation..show her you can cope with what she's put you through..relieve the pressure...and don't try to kiss her or hug her or anything or stuff like that...unless she makes it crystal clear she wants you to...
> 
> Not easy. I know.


Thank you for the advice.
Right now it is about 1-2 text conversations a week. She leaves Friday this week to head out of state for her cousins wedding so I thought I'd text her Friday and say something like... "Hey, just wanted to say have a good time at the wedding and with your family and have a safe trip"

I would definately like to start hanging out again but I'm not sure she is ready yet. But I guess I wont know for sure unless I ask right?


----------



## Marduk

MrPack said:


> I'll try to keep this short. I posted a while back about my best friends wedding comming up actually a week from this Saturday. Both my wife and I are in the wedding party. Initially after we decided to separate we talked about just going to the wedding like normal and try to have fun like we would with friends but obviously not exactly the same as we would if we were happily married. Fast forward a couple weeks, we had a little spat, it wasnt really a fight but more of us disagreeing on things and me being too pushy about our separation (I have since backed way off and have been giving her space). After this little spat we agreed that we would not stay in a hotel room together during the wedding night and that I would stay in a room with buddies and that she would stay in a room with some of the girls from the wedding party. Initially the plan was that couples would pair up and stay in rooms together.
> 
> We talked a bit yesterday about "business" type stuff and then small talk about whats going on with my work and her school. Then started talking about the wedding coming up and agreed that we will NOT ignore eachother or avoid eachother and that we would try to make the best out of the night considering our situation. She made a comment that if it were up to her we could "hang out like normal at the wedding". I asked her what she meant by this and she waited about an hour to reply back to the text saying "I dunno...like close friends".
> 
> So I'm dealing with a wife who seems to be making excuses to come to the house randomly to pick up stuff, she's going back and forth on expectations at the wedding. First wants to act like nothing is wrong at the wedding, then act like we cant be around eachother much, then being civil, to now wanting to act like "close friends". I just dont know what to make of this.
> 
> I need advice on something, I have a desire to maybe ask her if she wants to go back to staying in a room together for the wedding night. Would that be bad?? I really dont know what her answer would be but part of me wants to throw the idea out there. What do you all think? I'm sure if she says no its not a good idea right now I'll probably feel like crap for a while but what if she wants too and I never asked? What do I do???


You don't play her game her way, that's what you do.

You're not close friends. You're her husband who got his ass dumped by her.

Playing her game lets her not be accountible or face up to that in front of your friends.

That's what she's looking for.


----------



## honcho

MrPack said:


> I'll try to keep this short. I posted a while back about my best friends wedding comming up actually a week from this Saturday. Both my wife and I are in the wedding party. Initially after we decided to separate we talked about just going to the wedding like normal and try to have fun like we would with friends but obviously not exactly the same as we would if we were happily married. Fast forward a couple weeks, we had a little spat, it wasnt really a fight but more of us disagreeing on things and me being too pushy about our separation (I have since backed way off and have been giving her space). After this little spat we agreed that we would not stay in a hotel room together during the wedding night and that I would stay in a room with buddies and that she would stay in a room with some of the girls from the wedding party. Initially the plan was that couples would pair up and stay in rooms together.
> 
> We talked a bit yesterday about "business" type stuff and then small talk about whats going on with my work and her school. Then started talking about the wedding coming up and agreed that we will NOT ignore eachother or avoid eachother and that we would try to make the best out of the night considering our situation. She made a comment that if it were up to her we could "hang out like normal at the wedding". I asked her what she meant by this and she waited about an hour to reply back to the text saying "I dunno...like close friends".
> 
> So I'm dealing with a wife who seems to be making excuses to come to the house randomly to pick up stuff, she's going back and forth on expectations at the wedding. First wants to act like nothing is wrong at the wedding, then act like we cant be around eachother much, then being civil, to now wanting to act like "close friends". I just dont know what to make of this.
> 
> I need advice on something, I have a desire to maybe ask her if she wants to go back to staying in a room together for the wedding night. Would that be bad?? I really dont know what her answer would be but part of me wants to throw the idea out there. What do you all think? I'm sure if she says no its not a good idea right now I'll probably feel like crap for a while but what if she wants too and I never asked? What do I do???


Many times people will piece by piece move out. Her wanting random items out of the house etc is typical in many ways. Cutting the cord and moving everything at once "dramatic", it severs the ties with that home and life. She isn't completely ready to let go of that life it seems. 

On your side it can end up being kind of tease/torment watching your life slowing disappear. My stbx did this and you think since stuff is still in the home she isn't completely done yet you watch pieces of it disappear slowing. It'll start driving you nuts. 

Don't ask her to share a room at the wedding, it will just create pressure for both of you. This whole wedding is going to be awkward and your already thinking about it too much. The two of you aren't going to be side by side the entire night and you wouldn't be if things were "normal". You would be off talking to friends/family, she would be doing the same. Don't drink too much and don't do anything stupid. Keep it simple and don't overthink everything.


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## Chaparral

Are there plenty of rooms where you will be staying? I'm think if she gets to feeling good you might offer to get the two of you a room. If she feel like she is just putting on a show for everyone, well, I wouldn't play that game.

The most important thing is that you don't come of as needy and clingy. Personally if she was stand off and cool towards me, I would dance with every single woman at the reception and outwardly have a great time.

Disrespect deserves consequences. After all, its claimed, separation ends up in divorce 80% of the time.


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## MrPack

I'm sick of waking every single morning feeling like crap. I wake up missing my W so much even though she's the one who left. I miss the good times we had and it kills me. Why are mornings so hard??


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## LongWalk

Mr Pack,

Sorry about your pain.


----------



## Openminded

It's hard because you are mourning a loss. And you are full of uncertainty and unease because you don't know what the outcome will be. That's always the most difficult part. Time seems to move very slowly and pointlessly. At least, that was the case for me. 

The best thing you can do is focus on you and redirect your thoughts when they dwell on her. Staying busy helps.


----------



## lifeistooshort

MrPack said:


> I think your correct in saying that she doesnt have the energy to work on a marriage right now. I feel like this separation was about proving to herself that she could survive on her own and also her being scared about having the huge load stress from med school then a marriage and also the thought of the future with or without kids. The problem is time, she doesnt have much of it to work on a broken marriage right now, I on the other hand want to work on things but she isnt ready yet. We both did a horrible job of tip toeing around our issues for so long even before med school and now we are here.



As I read some of these posts I noticed where you said you weren't especially supportive of her going to med school. Do you think this could be at the root of her trying to survive on her own? Is it possible she resents that? I get why you might not be thrilled about it but I'm trying to speculate on what might be going on in her head. 

A troubled marriage, an unsupportive hb, med school and a job is a lot to handle. I can't imagine how she's got the energy to think about someone else, if that's a concern of yours.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MidwestDave

MrPack said:


> I talked to my wife today about some problems I had with how our separation is going. We are coming on to week 4 and have yet to discuss a timeline or plan as to when/how we can try and fix things. She still doesn't know when she'll be ready to work on things or go the other route. I told her how mad I've been lately feeling like we are just in a state of limbo with all of this and she says she understands and is sorry but she isn't ready to make any decisions yet.
> 
> It's hard because she is considerably more busy than I am since she is in med school right now and I just work a normal 9-5 job. I understand that its going to take her longer to figure out what she wants to do but it's not easy. I also understand that we are in a real separation but I'm really struggling to keep a positive routine going without her in my life. One day I have thoughts of "screw this I'm tired of waiting around for her" then I have I thoughts of "I will do anything to reconcile no matter how long it takes".
> 
> My question I guess is how long is too long for a separation??


Six weeks is not a long time. After all you made a huge commitment and decided to marry this person, so what is a few months for you both to sort this out? Even if you went ahead and divorced, you'd want to wait six months before dating again in my thinking.

It depends on the circumstances too. Is this the result of differences that could be resolved? Or is there some infidelity or other major loss of trust that makes it unlikely you will ever reconcile or regain mutual trust? If it is the latter, perhaps you've already made the decision and are just treading water waiting for the gavel. If it is the former, then it seems like giving this plenty of time is good considering what you invested in the marriage.


----------



## MrPack

MidwestDave said:


> MrPack said:
> 
> 
> 
> I talked to my wife today about some problems I had with how our separation is going. We are coming on to week 4 and have yet to discuss a timeline or plan as to when/how we can try and fix things. She still doesn't know when she'll be ready to work on things or go the other route. I told her how mad I've been lately feeling like we are just in a state of limbo with all of this and she says she understands and is sorry but she isn't ready to make any decisions yet.
> 
> It's hard because she is considerably more busy than I am since she is in med school right now and I just work a normal 9-5 job. I understand that its going to take her longer to figure out what she wants to do but it's not easy. I also understand that we are in a real separation but I'm really struggling to keep a positive routine going without her in my life. One day I have thoughts of "screw this I'm tired of waiting around for her" then I have I thoughts of "I will do anything to reconcile no matter how long it takes".
> 
> My question I guess is how long is too long for a separation??
> 
> 
> 
> Six weeks is not a long time. After all you made a huge commitment and decided to marry this person, so what is a few months for you both to sort this out? Even if you went ahead and divorced, you'd want to wait six months before dating again in my thinking.
> 
> It depends on the circumstances too. Is this the result of differences that could be resolved? Or is there some infidelity or other major loss of trust that makes it unlikely you will ever reconcile or regain mutual trust? If it is the latter, perhaps you've already made the decision and are just treading water waiting for the gavel. If it is the former, then it seems like giving this plenty of time is good considering what you invested in the marriage.
Click to expand...

To be honest I don't really know what I want yet. There hasn't been any infidelity just she has changed as a person. All the things we used to enjoy she doesn't seem to enjoy anymore. She's sooooo focused on med school and the new friends she has there. I made a mistake by not taking her up on offers to really get to know these new friends. I also thought I was being the perfect husband by cooking and cleaning all the time but I never pulled the trigger on the subtle signs she threw my way to spend time together and get to know the new person she was turning into. There's issues between us about kids. She's been so back and forth with it for past few years. I want kids and she knows that. She told me she has major guilt because she doesn't know if she wants kids anymore. I dunno, I think you are right in that I can't rush anything yet but it's just hard and slow going... I'm struggling to keep a good routine going to better myself right now but I'm sure that too will come with time. 

Thank you for your attention and words.


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## LongWalk

Doing all the cooking and cleaning is sexy.


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## MrPack

My wife was out of state this past weekend for her cousins wedding. I saw a few pictures on FB that her cousins had posted from the wedding. One of them I tried to zoom in and it looked like my wife wasnt wearing her wedding ring. We talked initially when we decided to separate that we would wear our rings during this time but she has always been the type of person who say's that a marriage is more than a ring. It was more me pushing to have us continue to wear our rings during this separation. 

I'm pretty upset that it looks like she wasnt wearing it. We are supposed to meet up this week for coffee to catch up, do I ask her about this? Do I go in wearing my ring or no? 

Also, she called me Saturday late night because she was upset. She had backed a rental car into a pole in the parking lot of the wedding place. Made a small dent and she was freaking out. This is the second time in a few weeks that she has called me in the middle of the night with some weird situation/story and we talk then she gets all weird saying im sorry I shouldnt have called. She sends these mixed signals and I'm not sure what to do.


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## Chaparral

Act normal until the next wedding. If she doesnt act like your wife there come home and go dark oN her, a real hard 180. Then file.


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## MrPack

Yea it was her idea to meet this week before the next weddign this coming weekend. She thinks it'll help to see eachother and maybe wont be as awkward come Saturday. I dunno... Its goign to be hard when we meet this week to not use the time to discuss our issues. I think the best thing would just be friendly and keep it short for now. Next week she has finals so I'm planning on having a major talk with her after her finals are over. That one really scares the crap out of me.


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## Chaparral

If she is out of school for the summer, i would ask her to move back home.


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## MrPack

Chaparral said:


> If she is out of school for the summer, i would ask her to move back home.


She isnt out for the summer. They have 2 weeks off between quarters. But I dont want to pressure her about comming home. From the way things have been going I dont see that happening anytime soon.


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## MrPack

I'm also struggling because when we meet tomorrow to chat I have so many questions and issues I want to bring up but I know it wont be the right time for that type of talk. For my own sanity (whats left anyway) I want to keep things between her and I as cordial as possible leading up to the wedding this weekend. Then once the wedding is over the following week I will bring up my issues and questions in regard to our marriage/separation. It's just so hard to sit here and think about seeing her tomorrow and this weekend all the while I have all these thoughts, questions and issues running around my head. I know some of you have told me to not wait to bring up these issues but like I said I am already freaking out about the wedding night and I feel if I bring all this up tomorrow it'll cause an even bigger void between us for that night. The last thing I want for that night is to have anymore animosity or anger between us. I'm going to try my [email protected]#$ing hardest to fake it that wedding weekend/night for the sake of my friends and even myself if that makes any sense. 

I was thinking alot today because I'm struggling so bad about how I just want to be happy and content again. I feel like a loser staying with my parents on the weekends because it's to hard for me to sit in my big empty house alone. I feel like a loser that I'm struggling at work, I feel like a loser that my emotions are so up and down. I truly beleive that I am 100% depressed right now and I hate it. I'm literally falling apart inside. 

I get the most ridiculous thoughts in my head about "what if" situations regarding my marriage and our separation. What if she did this or what if I did that blah blah blah. Half the time these thoughts make no sense, It's like all I do is worry about things I have no control over and I'm sick of it. How do I stay out of my own head? I'm over analyzing everything right now.


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## toonaive

"This is the second time in a few weeks that she has called me in the middle of the night with some weird situation/story and we talk then she gets all weird saying im sorry I shouldnt have called. She sends these mixed signals and I'm not sure what to do."

She is doing this to test/keep you still hooked and interested. Gauging your reactions. When you fail, because you aren't close by to rescue her, she will use this as an excuse to do her own thing.


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## Chaparral

Go to your MD and explaiin the situation. Tell him you need some temporary help. They see this alot.


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## MrPack

Chaparral said:


> Go to your MD and explaiin the situation. Tell him you need some temporary help. They see this alot.


I'm currently on antidepressants. Starting to wonder if I should go see my Dr and up the dosage considering whats going on in my life.


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## MrPack

Just got done texting with my wife. We are meeting for lunch tomorrow to chat and I guess set guidlines for the wedding this weekend. I'm already on pins and needles. Knowing her she will act like she is perfectly fine and happy and treat this lunch as nothing more than lunch between friends. I dont know how I'm going to do it but I know I need to act the same way and not show her how bad I'm hurting. 

For anyone who has been paying attention to my story, what sort of guidelines do you think I should set for the wedding this weekend? How exactly should I approach our talk tomorrow?


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## Chaparral

Almost all of her actions indicate she is moving on. Assume that it is and behave accordingly. Be amicable but protect yourself by disconnecting. Ironically, when they see you moving on they sometimes see the separation as a mistake. Shes not working on the marriage, shes trying to get out of the marriage without any pain.


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## tryingpatience

MrPack said:


> I was thinking alot today because I'm struggling so bad about how I just want to be happy and content again. I feel like a loser staying with my parents on the weekends because it's to hard for me to sit in my big empty house alone. I feel like a loser that I'm struggling at work, I feel like a loser that my emotions are so up and down. I truly beleive that I am 100% depressed right now and I hate it. I'm literally falling apart inside.


When you started dating did you ever think about what you would put up with and what you wouldn't? You need to start thinking about what you are willing to put up with in a marriage and partner.

You shouldn't be waiting on pins and needles, hoping on a turn around, falling into limbo and getting depressed. What do you want? What are your values? I'm sorry you are in this situation but you need to make a decision for yourself.

There might not be any infidelity but she's still not acting married to you. Meaning she's pretty much single and free to meet anyone.

We've seen so many examples here of what works and what doesn't. Waiting around and getting down on yourself doesn't.


----------



## Marduk

MrPack said:


> Just got done texting with my wife. We are meeting for lunch tomorrow to chat and I guess set guidlines for the wedding this weekend. I'm already on pins and needles. Knowing her she will act like she is perfectly fine and happy and treat this lunch as nothing more than lunch between friends. I dont know how I'm going to do it but I know I need to act the same way and not show her how bad I'm hurting.
> 
> For anyone who has been paying attention to my story, what sort of guidelines do you think I should set for the wedding this weekend? How exactly should I approach our talk tomorrow?


I would approach it with one perspective and one perspective only:

"Wife, you have a tough decision to make. It's time to decide if we're going to stay together or not. If we are, we are going to have to be clear about what needs to change for that to happen. If we aren't, it's time to move forward with us going two different paths."

Anything that isn't an answer to that is her wanting to have a safety net for as long as possible, because she's on the second path.

From a guy that's been there.


----------



## LongWalk

It will be interesting to see if she puts her ring back on for lunch. The ring is conceptual chastity belt, which in the age of no fault divorce, has muted efficacy. She will probably wear the ring, even if she is moving on for the simple reason that she wants to keep your passion at a distance.

Your wife's call when she damaged the car is very telling. She is not a self confident, together person. The accident reeks of absentmindedness. She is concentrating hard on school and her social relations with her classmates. She is looking for a so-called knight in shining armor. If she is already flirting with someone, she still has not gotten to the point that she could call him about her accident. It would have been too embarrassing. She was not embarrassed to reveal her fvck to you because she does not respect you. She is dumping unhappiness on you. You are being further degraded as her mate. She is sabotaging her feelings for you.

Perhaps you have already eaten the lunch, but if not the important thing is to have control of your emotions. Let her talk. Listen. If she wants to talk about your relationship, listen. When she is all talked out. Simply and calmly tell her: "Come home." Just those two words, nothing more. If she starts making excuses, just reply, "I'm sorry you feel that way." Do not engage in a relationship discussion.

As to the feelings of depression, many of us cope with darkness. Drugs would not be my choice, but drug companies don't want you to do it naturally. Go to the gym and work out hard. Pain on the elliptical machines will supply you with endorphins. Punch a bag. Lift free weights. Chase a squash ball. Find some way to repair your spirits. If you go to your parents' house cut the lawn, fix stuff.

Note that you worry about her studies. You want her to pass her exams. But if you mess up at work because she is leaving you, does she care? Wouldn't it be kinder to you to end your marriage decisively instead of letting you dangle?


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## MrPack

Well I screwed up. We met for lunch today but ended up just talking in her car for 45 minutes. I brought up the fact that she stopped wearing her wedding ring and her reasoning for that is because right now we "arent together". Yea I'm not wearing mine but thats only because I knew she hadnt been wearing hers. I started out by saying that we have to be completely honest right now during this conversation no matter how hard it is. I said that I still dont agree with the way our separation is going in that we arent wearing our rings and its basically been said that both of us can date outside of eachother if we want. I asked her flat out again are you having an EA or PA or both with another guy. And she looked me dead in the eye and said no. She swore she was not and has not been seeing anyone and has never cheated on me. Part of me genuinly believes her but theres part of me that also understands that she could be flat out lying. 

I said okay well if we arent wearing rings and were talking about it being "ok" to date then what are we doing?? At some point a decision has to be made but of course neither her or myself could make that decision right now. I know there are people who go this route during a separation and end up back together but I honestly dont see that happening with us. Without getting into too much detail we also talked about how our biggest issue with our marriage is that I want kids and she doesnt. She told me that for a while now she see's herself leaving abroad after med school is over with and practicing out of the country to help less fortunate people. She's had these thougts for a while now and that was one of the main issues between us that finally led to her wanting to leave our marriage. She couldnt see our future working while she had that "passion" of working abroad in mind. She said she doesnt want to keep living a lie like everything is okay with our marriage when deep in her heart she knows that she wants to leave the country after school and she knows that is not somethign I would be willing to consider.

This one really hurt. She told me that since we've been separated she's felt a weight lifted off her shoulders. She says she feels like she is finally living the way she feels she is supposed to live. She then talks about how sad she is because she doesnt want to lose me as a best friend. WTF!!! She actually thinks that we should be able to be best friends during and after all this?? Maybe some day but right now I dont see that happening. 

Now this is another thing that is really eating at me, I dunno maybe I'm over thinking this one. I've had plans with my parents, my sister, my mother in law and my wife before we separated to take a vacation to Mexico the week after 4th of July. We did the same trip last year. Well obviously because of what my W and I are going through she isnt going anymore and neither is the Mother in Law. While were talking today my W says' theres something else she wants to tell me...she says that her, her mom, her moms boyfriend and my wifes girlfriend from school are going to Mexico the same freaking days we are. Same beach town and all!! The only thing is they are staying way on one end of the town than we are way on the other. Part of me wishes she hadnt even told me they were going to be there. I'm pissed. I know its the only time she has off due to school but c'mon why the F#$% do they have to go to the same freakin place as us...

We then talked about the wedding this weekend and both agreed that it's going to be weird and akward but we are both just going to be friendly to eachother and hangout in a big group with all of our friends like we used to. Sounds easier said than done I'm worried and anxious but I worry about everything. In my mind the past couple weeks I've been telling myself to just get through the wedding this weekend then start taking neccessary steps forward to better myself and move on. Well now I have this trip to Mexico to worry about. I feel like everything just keeps crumbling down on me and I cant barely keep my head above water. 

Thanks again to all who have given me advice and input on this forum. I think I'm almost there and ready to start taking real steps for myself. But I want you all to know that I do take your words and advice seriously and I genuinly appreciate it. I'm starting to depend on TAM to help me cope with this stuff.


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## Marduk

OK dude.

Are you willing to give up having kids and go off to help the less fortunate with her? And if you say yes -- are you making this decision out of love, or out of fear?

If you're making it out of love, and you offered it, would she be happy, or would she feel pressured to say yes?

My honest gut call...

Stick a fork in it, you're done. Call a lawyer, get papers signed, and move on.

And don't be her friend. That's to relieve her guilt, not for any benefit of yours.


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## Chaparral

Just as I thought.


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## Chaparral

She wants out but she's still taking your money. That's immoral.


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## Marduk

> Without getting into too much detail we also talked about how our biggest issue with our marriage is that I want kids and she doesnt. She told me that for a while now she see's herself leaving abroad after med school is over with and practicing out of the country to help less fortunate people.


It's called running away. I mean, this is a great and lofty goal, but you'd think you would have heard about it before now if it was really a life dream of hers, right?


> She's had these thougts for a while now and that was one of the main issues between us that finally led to her wanting to leave our marriage. She couldnt see our future working while she had that "passion" of working abroad in mind.


Is this news to you?


> She said she doesnt want to keep living a lie like everything is okay with our marriage when deep in her heart she knows that she wants to leave the country after school and she knows that is not somethign I would be willing to consider.


Then she should be willing to sign an agreement letting you out as gracefully as possible and be very, very happy for you to be inserting your boy bits into someone else's girl bits.

Right?


> This one really hurt. She told me that since we've been separated she's felt a weight lifted off her shoulders. She says she feels like she is finally living the way she feels she is supposed to live.


A life free of accountability and responsibility always feels free.
Do you remember what summer vacation felt like in high school?

That's the way she feels right now.


> She then talks about how sad she is because she doesnt want to lose me as a best friend. WTF!!! She actually thinks that we should be able to be best friends during and after all this?? Maybe some day but right now I dont see that happening.


My ex and I said the same things, man. For me, it was out of fear. For her, it was $.

Funny how we stopped being friends when I stopped paying money into our joint account, gave her everything to get her out of my life, and started sleeping with someone else.


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## MrPack

marduk said:


> OK dude.
> 
> Are you willing to give up having kids and go off to help the less fortunate with her? And if you say yes -- are you making this decision out of love, or out of fear?
> 
> If you're making it out of love, and you offered it, would she be happy, or would she feel pressured to say yes?
> 
> My honest gut call...
> 
> Stick a fork in it, you're done. Call a lawyer, get papers signed, and move on.
> 
> And don't be her friend. That's to relieve her guilt, not for any benefit of yours.


Its funny that you ask, 4 weeks ago I would have answered your question with yes I'm willing to give up having kids and travel with her to help the less fortunate. But now that I've done at least a little thinking about what I want my answer is no. I do not want to give up my passion to become a father some day and start a family of my own. I think the fork is getting closer and closer to my hand. I now feel like I have some decisions to make to better myself and my future. I'm getting there but I cant see myself making that big decision within a week or 2. 

Keep in mind when we first got married she was all into the idea of having a normal job and starting a family. As the years went on SHE started to change not me. So I do not have any guilt about the fact that I'm not willing to follow her to the "jungle" to save people.


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## LongWalk

> Well I screwed up. We met for lunch today but ended up just talking in her car for 45 minutes. I brought up the fact that she stopped wearing her wedding ring and her reasoning for that is because right now we "aren't together". Yea I'm not wearing mine but thats only because I knew she hadnt been wearing hers. I started out by saying that we have to be completely honest right now during this conversation no matter how hard it is. I said that I still dont agree with the way our separation is going in that we arent wearing our rings and its basically been said that both of us can date outside of each other if we want. I asked her flat out again are you having an EA or PA or both with another guy. And she looked me dead in the eye and said no. She swore she was not and has not been seeing anyone and has never cheated on me. Part of me genuinely believes her but theres part of me that also understands that she could be flat out lying.


She is not happy or comfortable with herself. If she has had sex with another man, it has not led to a relationship. So, she is not anxious to end your marriage in all ways. Her dating failures can be blamed on you voodoo c*ck blocking the men who would make her happy. 



> I said okay well if we arent wearing rings and were talking about it being "ok" to date then what are we doing?? At some point a decision has to be made but of course neither her or myself could make that decision right now. I know there are people who go this route during a separation and end up back together but I honestly dont see that happening with us. Without getting into too much detail we also talked about how our biggest issue with our marriage is that I want kids and she doesnt.


You are saying that she is good enough to mix genes with. She is saying your DNA is not what she wants. If you won the lottery or got a massive promotion at work or got 1.3 million views on YouTube by playing the guitar and singing, she would likely open her heart and legs again. She wants and upgrade.



> She told me that for a while now she see's herself leaving abroad after med school is over with and practicing out of the country to help less fortunate people. She's had these thougts for a while now and that was one of the main issues between us that finally led to her wanting to leave our marriage.


She wants Dr. Zhivago. And this is where you should have said, "sorry you feel this way." 



> She couldnt see our future working while she had that "passion" of working abroad in mind. She said she doesnt want to keep living a lie like everything is okay with our marriage when deep in her heart she knows that she wants to leave the country after school and she knows that is not somethign I would be willing to consider.


Total BS. If you had said: "Babe, I love you and will quit my job right now and join Médecins Sans Frontières to serve the poor in some land beset by deadly diseases and parasites," would she be excited about you?

By the time she graduates, she'll probably say she has to pay off her debts by working for some HMO. 



> This one really hurt. She told me that since we've been separated she's felt a weight lifted off her shoulders. She says she feels like she is finally living the way she feels she is supposed to live. She then talks about how sad she is because she doesnt want to lose me as a best friend. WTF!!! She actually thinks that we should be able to be best friends during and after all this?? Maybe some day but right now I dont see that happening.


She doesn't want you in the same bed with her. She doesn't want to eat breakfast with you. Why because in her mind she married but wants to be free to have sex with other men. You were wrecking that. If she just wanted to be by herself, she's wear her wedding ring to discourage potential partners.



> Now this is another thing that is really eating at me, I dunno maybe I'm over thinking this one. I've had plans with my parents, my sister, my mother in law and my wife before we separated to take a vacation to Mexico the week after 4th of July. We did the same trip last year. Well obviously because of what my W and I are going through she isnt going anymore and neither is the Mother in Law. While were talking today my W says' theres something else she wants to tell me...she says that her, her mom, her moms boyfriend and my wifes girlfriend from school are going to Mexico the same freaking days we are. Same beach town and all!! The only thing is they are staying way on one end of the town than we are way on the other. Part of me wishes she hadnt even told me they were going to be there. I'm pissed. I know its the only time she has off due to school but c'mon why the F#$% do they have to go to the same freakin place as us...


This is just a sign that her thinking is fvcked up. If you have some luck, you'll be walking on the beach in the evening and she her making out with some guy she just met.

This friend of hers may well have been toxic to your marriage. Do you know her?

Your MIL is also a head job. She is encouraging her daughter to do something stupid, weird and hurtful.



> We then talked about the wedding this weekend and both agreed that it's going to be weird and akward but we are both just going to be friendly to eachother and hangout in a big group with all of our friends like we used to. Sounds easier said than done I'm worried and anxious but I worry about everything. In my mind the past couple weeks I've been telling myself to just get through the wedding this weekend then start taking neccessary steps forward to better myself and move on. Well now I have this trip to Mexico to worry about. I feel like everything just keeps crumbling down on me and I cant barely keep my head above water.


Her trip to Mexico is another shyte test you cannot pass. If she gets unhappy there, then you would have failed to show up and make her happy. If you show up at her hotel, you are stalker.

You are frankly better off without this confused, manipulative and passive aggressive woman. I return to original proposal. Hand her the divorce papers at the wedding. Let her run off hysterically and act the drama queen.



> Thanks again to all who have given me advice and input on this forum. I think I'm almost there and ready to start taking real steps for myself. But I want you all to know that I do take your words and advice seriously and I genuinly appreciate it. I'm starting to depend on TAM to help me cope with this stuff.


PM Chuck for help. He is eloquent on letting go of partners who are no longer right.


----------



## MrPack

Chaparral said:


> She wants out but she's still taking your money. That's immoral.


What do you mean taking my money??


----------



## Chaparral

While you are pondering this, I want to tell you that having my two children, a son and a daughter, is the most wonderful thing in life.

Good luck


----------



## honcho

Your running into what so many people run into in separations. You are standing still waiting and she is exploring the new world for her. In the short term is works well, they suddenly have freedom, as she said this weight is off her. Long term it rarely works but she has this picture in her head of this great new life. 

Helping kids in poor nations, I don't fault the dream but the hard work to get from point A to B she isn't seeing and she doesn't want to right now. 

Your issue isn't about having kids, your issue is your spouse no longer wants to be married to you or probably to anybody right now. Her pursuit of her dream life is overriding everything right now. The life you want to share cant compete with the picture in her head.


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## LongWalk

Bugged,

You are correct that TAM is not full of optimists. But everything that Mr Pack relates follows a pattern. His wife is either a WAW or a cheater who has not been busted.

I am not against reconciliation. I hope that he can achieve that if it is possible. As to what will make his wife fall back in love with him and feel desire, there is only one answer. She has to feel it. That will happen if she perceives him as masculine. To make children she wants an alpha male. Mr Pack cannot fight other men physically to prove that he is the one for her. His best shot is to detach. Take care of his health, mental and physical. He needs to show that he is confident of his future. His happiness cannot depend on her.

People want to be with happy people. But dysfunctional people are drawn into co dependency. They are not happy because their relationships are not healthy.

At the wedding Mr Pack is screwed. If he ignores and snubs his wife, he is a bitter loser. If he chases her, he is a clingy stalker. 

She is going to Mexico to taunt and torment him. She not right in the head when it comes to decisions regarding her marriage.


----------



## Chaparral

MrPack said:


> What do you mean taking my money??


Shes scraping by to pay for her education. You're still paying insurance and some other bills. 

Also, any debts you have incurred during the marriage is half hers. I also think half her med school debts are also half yours while married. I've never heard of any type of debt incurred during marriage wasn't shared. Talk to a lawyer yesterday. I don't see only having her name on a loan absolves you of liability.


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## lifeistooshort

It's also not unheard of for people to simply grow apart. Even if you convinced her to settle and have kids she wouldn't be happy, and it sounds like you guys are no longer compatible. 

I know it's tough for many here to comprehend that women who want out are not always cheating but it does happen. I guess she could be but right now she doesn't want to be married to you and she doesn't want what you want so why push it?

There's plenty of women out there who want what you want.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## honcho

LongWalk said:


> Bugged,
> 
> You are correct that TAM is not full of optimists. But everything that Mr Pack relates follows a pattern. His wife is either a WAW or a cheater who has not been busted.
> 
> I am not against reconciliation. I hope that he can achieve that if it is possible. As to what will make his wife fall back in love with him and feel desire, there is only one answer. She has to feel it. That will happen if she perceives him as masculine. To make children she wants an alpha male. Mr Pack cannot fight other men physically to prove that he is the one for her. His best shot is to detach. Take care of his health, mental and physical. He needs to show that he is confident of his future. His happiness cannot depend on her.
> 
> People want to be with happy people. But dysfunctional people are drawn into co dependency. They are not happy because their relationships are not healthy.
> 
> At the wedding Mr Pack is screwed. If he ignores and snubs his wife, he is a bitter loser. If he chases her, he is a clingy stalker.
> 
> She is going to Mexico to taunt and torment him. She not right in the head when it comes to decisions regarding her marriage.


The wedding does seem like a pandoras box for him. Both of them sooner or later will feel like the eyes of the room will be on them. 

Probably best to stay away from the free drinks that night.


----------



## Marduk

MrPack said:


> Its funny that you ask, 4 weeks ago I would have answered your question with yes I'm willing to give up having kids and travel with her to help the less fortunate. But now that I've done at least a little thinking about what I want my answer is no. I do not want to give up my passion to become a father some day and start a family of my own. I think the fork is getting closer and closer to my hand. I now feel like I have some decisions to make to better myself and my future. I'm getting there but I cant see myself making that big decision within a week or 2.
> 
> Keep in mind when we first got married she was all into the idea of having a normal job and starting a family. As the years went on SHE started to change not me. So I do not have any guilt about the fact that I'm not willing to follow her to the "jungle" to save people.


Here's the thing, man.

I highly suspect -- and this is hard for you to hear -- that she's not done growing up yet, and it's not "helping the needy" that she wants, it's to have a plausible excuse to run away from you, have her ****s and giggles with other guys, "find herself," and settle down eventually with someone else.

She can't deal with the pressure, and she sure can't deal with the pressure of having you expect stuff from her.

Let her run. Let her have her fun.

You deserves someone that wants you, and wants those things with you.

It doesn't take more than a week to make any decision. It just doesn't. Don't waste any more time on the fence. Get off it and start moving forward.


----------



## helolover

marduk said:


> Here's the thing, man.
> 
> I highly suspect -- and this is hard for you to hear -- that she's not done growing up yet, and it's not "helping the needy" that she wants, it's to have a plausible excuse to run away from you, have her ****s and giggles with other guys, "find herself," and settle down eventually with someone else.
> 
> She can't deal with the pressure, and she sure can't deal with the pressure of having you expect stuff from her.
> 
> Let her run. Let her have her fun.
> 
> You deserves someone that wants you, and wants those things with you.
> 
> It doesn't take more than a week to make any decision. It just doesn't. Don't waste any more time on the fence. Get off it and start moving forward.


I second this.


----------



## LongWalk

That is why handing the divorce papers and going no contact asap is the way to go. Filing for divorce is giving her want she wants. Give it to her. Will it make her happy? Who knows? She claims that separation brought relief. That is a sign that it is really over.

But she doesn't truly know her own mind. No children, really?

Filing for divorce is at least a sign that intellectually you are ready to move on. That is some sort of statement of strength. You need to file. Okay, give it to her at the end of the wedding so that she cannot blubber in front of everyone and claim you are "cruel". Definitely you need to file before you go for vacation. Let her get on the plane knowing that her STBX is going the same place and that she chose to set up the possibility of accidental meeting.

Mr Pack what was you major in college? Did you meet her in a class? At a party?

Also, your "lunch" didn't turn out to be much of a meal. She is dealing you stuff in ways that increases your pain. Thus the need to 180 and no contact.


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## Chaparral

honcho said:


> The wedding does seem like a pandoras box for him. Both of them sooner or later will feel like the eyes of the room will be on them.
> 
> Probably best to stay away from the free drinks that night.


I would have enough drinks to have fun but not get drunk. I would dance with has many single women as possible and get as many phone numbers as possible.

This marriage is toast because your wife has put it in the toaster. All she wants from you is to make it as easdy on her as possible. In other words, take your broken heart and disappear.

Get a lawyer Monday and cut her off. Go dark. If she brings up the best friend thing again try to tell her no without cussing her.0


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## Chaparral

Chaparral said:


> I would have enough drinks to have fun but not get drunk. I would dance with has many single women as possible and get as many phone numbers as possible.
> 
> This marriage is toast because your wife has put it in the toaster. All she wants from you is to make it as easdy on her as possible. In other words, take your broken heart and disappear.
> 
> Get a lawyer Monday and cut her off. Go dark. If she brings up the best friend thing again try to tell her no without cussing her.0


By the way, I did something si!molar to this and my fiance came running back. Two years later I broke it off, things just weren't the same with me.


----------



## Marduk

Bugged said:


> Why can t they part in an amicable way..what can he achieve from going dark?


You know, he can start to bring himself out of this hellhole her immaturity put him in?

There is no value in being her friend for him. There is value for her.

And I suspect that gets to the root of the problem, for both of them.


----------



## Marduk

Bugged said:


> They had a bad marriage for a couple of years...in the end she made a decision that made things harder for her financially...she had to work more while studying for her finals...I think she's been very honest and kind of brave too..the easy way would have been to wait till the finals...not clear to me why friendship has value for her but not for him...the last thing he wants is an uncooperative wife for the divorce...also he would crush any hope of her coming back if she thinks he's beeing an a'hole...men are just too vengeful sometimes...


Disagree x 1000.

The only thing worse than making the walkaway spouse realize right away that they're living in fantasyland is waiting to do it.

Because it's coming. And will only get worse the longer you let it go on.

And the only one it will really hurt is him.

She got over him long ago. That's the problem in these situations -- she's already mourned the relationship and is now wanting to move on and be free. He's still mourning it.

It's difficult to do that when the person that pulled the rug out is still in your life, and you get to watch them move on, ahead of the game, emotionally.


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## MrPack

I guess the hardest thing for me since our talk yesterday is that she doesnt seem to be hurting at all with the fact that our marriage is basically over. I'm guessing because she started this process of letting go of our marriage long ago so she's past that stage. I dunno... Last night I had a great night, went to my parents house for a bbq after work and had a couple drinks and was feeling decent wtih all of this.I was able to vent to them about our talk and just say whatever was on my mind. I know I'm now in the stage where I need to take steps forward for ME but it so freaking scary. I dont know what "single Mrpack" looks like. I havent been single in over 10 years. Almost all of my friends are in relationships or married, who am I going to hangout with? How will I find someone again and will I ever feel like I want to find someone again? The fear of being alone for the rest of my life is killing me. 

Also, part of me wishes she was almost done with med school so she could just leave already to whatever country she sees fit. Get out of here so I can move on and not worry about bumping into her from time to time. 

Thanks everyone for your thoughts and advice. I'm taking notes and slowly wrapping my head around this. I dont know how I'm going to get through this but I know I need to break this negative cycle I'm in and find happiness again. I just dont know where thats at.


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## Marduk

I looked up some friends I had lost track with while married. A few were still single.

I also had a buddy of a buddy that was single, and we hung out. 

It will come. What are your hobbies? What have you always wanted to do, but couldn't?


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## MrPack

marduk said:


> I looked up some friends I had lost track with while married. A few were still single.
> 
> I also had a buddy of a buddy that was single, and we hung out.
> 
> It will come. What are your hobbies? What have you always wanted to do, but couldn't?


Well I've been trying to golf more, wasnt able to do much of that while we were married because I was busy doing things around the house while she was in school. I have a good group of buddies but only a couple are single and all they want to do is go out drinking which is fine once in a while but not all the time. 

People keep saying that I'm still young and I'll find somebody but I'm goign to be 32 years old this year and its hard to think about how will I ever meet someone again that I can truly connect with. It kills me at work and around friends when I see/hear them talk about their family or siginificant others. Its like being around happy people right now is hurting me cause I'm jealous and just want to be happy again. 

I've been through depression in the past when I was younger (dont want to get into why) but I got past that and now I feel like this depression I'm in is worse and being almost 32 years old it makes me feel like I'm weak and worthless. I know I sound pathetic and i'm on a major pitty party but it just suckks.


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## Marduk

Bah. 

I'm in my 40s and women hit on me all the time. 

Go forth with a sense of optimism.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chaparral

I didnt marry till i was 33. My son just graduated from college. You are young.


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## thenub

Mr pack, I'm almost 51, I have had women in their 30's and early 40's hitting on me for the last few months now. 
I lost weight, started dressing nicely and putting on some serious muscle (weights 4x/week). I feel stronger and sexier that I ever have. 
You're young, being in your early 30's and free is a dream, live it!!!


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## Yeswecan

MrPack, You are 31, bud. That ain't nothing. I'm 50 and still get play. I have no doubt you will find another and relatively quickly. Chin up!


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## Decorum

Sorry for jumping in late.

Connect these dots!!!! (see quotes below)



Chaparral said:


> Also, any debts you have incurred during the marriage is half hers. I also think half her med school debts are also half yours while married. I've never heard of any type of debt incurred during marriage wasn't shared. Talk to a lawyer yesterday. I don't see only having her name on a loan absolves you of liability.





LongWalk said:


> That is why handing the divorce papers and going no contact asap is the way to go. Filing for divorce is giving her want she wants. Give it to her. Will it make her happy? Who knows? She claims that separation brought relief. That is a sign that it is really over.
> 
> But she doesn't truly know her own mind. No children, really?
> 
> Filing for divorce is at least a sign that intellectually you are ready to move on. That is some sort of statement of strength. You need to file. Okay, give it to her at the end of the wedding so that she cannot blubber in front of everyone and claim you are "cruel". Definitely you need to file before you go for vacation. Let her get on the plane knowing that her STBX is going the same place and that she chose to set up the possibility of accidental meeting.
> 
> Mr Pack what was you major in college? Did you meet her in a class? At a party?
> 
> Also, your "lunch" didn't turn out to be much of a meal. She is dealing you stuff in ways that increases your pain. Thus the need to 180 and no contact.


Why add more debt to mortgage you future with?

You really going to let her build it all up and give you half when she files and runs into the arms of another man?

I am sorry, and I do wish you well.
Take care.


.


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## Betrayedone

Time to put on your big boy pants and start re-caging your thought process to one of it's just you for now. Get some divorce care classes at church, continue to communicate here, see a therapist if these are not enough. You have the gift of youth but are emotionally dependent and you need to reclaim yourself. Once you do that you will be able to prosper.


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## MrPack

Well I'm getting ready to head up north for the wedding weekend that I've been dreading for a month now. My STBXW wont be there until the wedding day Saturday early afternoon but I'm scared as $hit that its going to be hard to fake it and act like I'm having a good time. I want her to see that I'm strong and confident and happy. I do not want her to see me as weak. I know that she will act as if nothing is wrong and will be acting like she's having a great time. She's good at hiding her feelings. Wish me luck everyone its going to be tough...


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## tryingpatience

Don't try to analyze her. It will just make you miserable. You just came to the realization that she had already mourned the loss of you marriage. She won't be showing any emotions during the wedding. Don't mistaken her looks for sadness. I suspect they will be looks of pity for you.


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## Marduk

MrPack said:


> Well I'm getting ready to head up north for the wedding weekend that I've been dreading for a month now. My STBXW wont be there until the wedding day Saturday early afternoon but I'm scared as $hit that its going to be hard to fake it and act like I'm having a good time. I want her to see that I'm strong and confident and happy. I do not want her to see me as weak. I know that she will act as if nothing is wrong and will be acting like she's having a great time. She's good at hiding her feelings. Wish me luck everyone its going to be tough...


Don't make it about her at all. 

Make it about you. What is it going to take for you to go and have a good time? Make it about that.

Focus on yourself. Get out of your head and into your body. One foot in front of the other. Don't fall for it if she pulls a stunt.

Find a buddy, hang with him.


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## LongWalk

Are you going to wear your wedding ring?

I suggest that you don't sit with her and pretend that you are friends.


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## MrPack

Were both not wearing our rings. I had a great time last night with my buddies now were getting ready to golf. I'm really struggling today with the thought of how I'm gonna get through the day and night tomorrow with the wedding and her being here. This really sucks...


----------



## Lloyd Dobler

MrPack said:


> Were both not wearing our rings. I had a great time last night with my buddies now were getting ready to golf. I'm really struggling today with the thought of how I'm gonna get through the day and night tomorrow with the wedding and her being here. This really sucks...


Mr. Pack,

I think you should try to use the momentum of having a good time with your buddies carry over to the wedding itself. Sure, she'll be there but you DO NOT have to interact with her at all. If she approaches you you can tell her you're there for the wedding and would rather not talk to her. Find one of your buddies and grab him to insulate yourself from her.

Somebody else mentioned not drinking too much, and I think that's a really good idea because you don't want to let her know you've lost control of yourself over her. 

Hang in there - I'm hoping your expectation of how bad it might be will seem silly once you've managed to get through the weekend unscathed.


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## MrPack

The problem is we are both in the wedding party we are all staying at the same hotel. I'm not so much worried about talking to her I'm more worried about other people getting drunk and trying to talk to us about our situation. There's really no way for me to totally avoid her. I think my main concern is that I'm still mourning our marriage and it's going to suck watching my friends celebrate their relationship...


----------



## Lloyd Dobler

MrPack said:


> The problem is we are both in the wedding party we are all staying at the same hotel. I'm not so much worried about talking to her I'm more worried about other people getting drunk and trying to talk to us about our situation. There's really no way for me to totally avoid her. I think my main concern is that I'm still mourning our marriage and it's going to suck watching my friends celebrate their relationship...


Hmm - the proximity of you both being in the wedding party does make it trickier. I understand what you're saying about mourning your marriage while your wife has already seemingly moved on. This is going to be hard, but I think you have to remind yourself why you're there. You're in the wedding party to help your friends celebrate their wedding, so I think you need to try to compartmentalize things a little bit and separate your need to mourn your marriage (at least for this weekend) from the primary purpose of the weekend. Easy for me to say, I know...


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## LongWalk

Is there going to be a reception, where everybody is mingling? Going to be tough. You might need a drink, haha.


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## MrPack

Yes there's a reception and lots of alcohol. I've done enough drinking the past two days with my buddies to fill a swimming pool. I'm gonna have a couple drinks at the reception but I will not get hammered... I just can't wait to get home Sunday and set some goals to move forward for MY happiness that has been gone for a while now.


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## MrPack

Today is the dreaded day


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## legaleagle

Hang in there!


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## MrPack

Well I survived the wedding day/night. I saw my wife about an hour before we had to be at the venue while we were all at he resort. She asked If I would walk her to her car to get something because she wanted to see me before the wedding so it was less awkward. We had small talk she said I looked good in my tux nothing much. Standing up at the wedding it was very difficult while our friends read their vows but I held it together. As the night went on we had a few talks, nothing too bad and nothing too good either. At one point she says to me "do you know that I still love you?". Kind of hard question. I know she still loves me but she doesn't seem to love me enough to stay married and change her mind about what she wants to do in the future after med school. We then started talking more in depth about our situation I gave her my coat because it was getting cold. She started crying about our conversation then said that we should probably stop the conversation because she was getting old feelings again. We then basically hung out with our friends the rest of the evening. I said good night to her and we went our separate ways. 

Although at the time the evening didn't seem too bad I woke up feeling like crap, sort of like I took two steps back. Her and I both got real close to acting on old feelings last night but neither of us pulled the trigger. I guess I'm not good enough for her anymore. She keeps telling me that she doesn't want to totally lose me and wants us to remain best friends no matter what happens. That sort of pisses me off because I cant just go from being married to then just strictly being best friends. 

She made it very clear that her head is still in the spot of wanting to travel after med school and doesn't see herself wanting to settle down and start a family. She wants to go to lunch on a regular basis but I do not think that is a good idea for myself. How am I supposed to get over her and move forward if I'm constantly seeing her? I still love her and I'm still soooooo attracted to her so us being around each other like last night was very very difficult. I found myself looking around the reception hall worried that I'd catch her flirting with some guy then I would tell myself no stop I need to worry about myself not her. 

Sorry if my post is sort of all over the place or hard to read but these are the thoughts that came to mind about the wedding last night. Thanks to all who have been here supporting me through all of this.


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## morituri

Don't beat yourself up for not being able to keep your distance away from her or go completely dark. Emotionally detaching is a process that is not achieved overnight and will require many attempts before it becomes a reality. So cut yourself some slack.

Lastly, stop medicating with the booze. It really doesn't help to resolve any issues and you will feel like crap the following day. Your health, physical and emotional, should be your priority and alcohol only sabotages it.


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## MrPack

Bugged said:


> MrPack, I'm so sorry you feel that way
> Your wife has a big dream apparently..and we only have one life...have you ever tried to find out more details about her plans? When is med school over?


She finishes med school in 3 years. As far as details about her plans... she wants to literally graduate and move to another country via a school program to start her career as a doctor. This may seem cold but that is not the future I want. I want a woman who loves me for me and wants to start a family. I've worked my A$$ off for years to get where I am and to support her while she finds herself I deserve happiness. Yes her dream is big and she's always been the type of person to have big dreams but in my eyes she has never grown up and realized at some point in life you need to start acting like an adult and stop chasing every damn "dream" that comes your way. Literally she went from wanting a family life 5 years ago to wanting a new adventure or dream every other month.


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## LongWalk

> Well I survived the wedding day/night. I saw my wife about an hour before we had to be at the venue while we were all at he resort. She asked If I would walk her to her car to get something because she wanted to see me before the wedding so it was less awkward.


It's all about her comfort. She did not want the silent treatment in front of others. That would have made her feel conspicuous.



> We had small talk she said I looked good in my tux nothing much.


A throw away line that is not sincere. So, yeah, nothing much.



> Standing up at the wedding it was very difficult while our friends read their vows but I held it together. As the night went on we had a few talks, nothing too bad and nothing too good either. At one point she says to me "do you know that I still love you?". Kind of hard question.


You have to feel pain so that she will feel alive.



> I know she still loves me but she doesn't seem to love me enough to stay married and change her mind about what she wants to do in the future after med school.


Med school is hard work. So are relationships. Once she becomes a doctor, I'll bet she quits jobs and moves around.



> We then started talking more in depth about our situation I gave her my coat because it was getting cold. She started crying about our conversation then said that we should probably stop the conversation because she was getting old feelings again.


There you go, causing her pain again. Of course people were watching this drama. But it was just to protect her from having the WAW label stamped on her. She wanted to show everyone how hard it was for her to break up with you.


> We then basically hung out with our friends the rest of the evening. I said good night to her and we went our separate ways... Her and I both got real close to acting on old feelings last night but neither of us pulled the trigger.


She would have been close to you at the end of the evening if you were supposed to have sex. She probably would have let you kiss her but no more than that.



> I guess I'm not good enough for her anymore. She keeps telling me that she doesn't want to totally lose me and wants us to remain best friends no matter what happens. That sort of pisses me off because I cant just go from being married to then just strictly being best friends.


It's all unreal. You get married to someone else and have kids and you are supposed to invite her to be godmother to your kids? You're going to get post cards from Africa?



> She made it very clear that her head is still in the spot of wanting to travel after med school and doesn't see herself wanting to settle down and start a family. She wants to go to lunch on a regular basis but I do not think that is a good idea for myself. How am I supposed to get over her and move forward if I'm constantly seeing her?


She is using you to sustain her sense of self worth. She needs therapy. Get away from her.



> I still love her and I'm still soooooo attracted to her so us being around each other like last night was very very difficult. I found myself looking around the reception hall worried that I'd catch her flirting with some guy then I would tell myself no stop I need to worry about myself not her.


She already said that you are both free to date and she left so that you wouldn't be able to see her with other men.

I don't think you should stay with her because the likelihood of successful reconciliation is small. However, if you want any chance of reconciliation, you should file for divorce and cut off all contact. She may begin to respect you again and be attracted. You realized that allowing her to keep you dangling is destroying your sex ranking?

You cannot nice a woman back if you were a nice guy to begin with. An abusive guy who becomes kind is someone new – he has changed the pattern. In real life abusive men have trouble fixing themselves. There is a better chance if there is alcohol or some other negative factor that can be removed.

Your situation is different. You have supported her faithfully. Cut off support and you will appear in a new light. Every time you meet and talk and exhibit your tried and true nice guy to her, she gets confirmation that you are the guy who no longer excites her. Not only do you need to place the "period" punctuation mark on your relationship, you must show that you have evolved as a person. You have the self respect to refuse to be patronized.


----------



## lifeistooshort

Yeah, you can't be "best friends" with her, that's something you'd hear from a 15 year old. I'm sure a new woman would love that, and frankly a new man in her life isn't going to go for that either.

You're either married or not, and if not you have no kids so cut her out of your life. If that makes her feel bad that's her problem.

I get that you're upset because you feel she won't grow up, but the fact is that people do change and it appears she has changed in what she wants. It sucks for you but nobody would be happy if you pushed her into settling and having kid she doesn't want. You've let this drag on far too long, cut the strings now and begin the healing process. You'll feel better just from taking some power back, right now you've allowed her to take it all and powerlessness makes everyone feel like crap.


----------



## Chaparral

The next time she brings up being friends, tell her no woman in her right mind would let her boyfriend or husband let him be friends with an ex wife. This may never come up because you will now file for divorce and go dark on her. You will immediately cut all ties, social and financial. Protect yourself with a rabid lawyer.

Get on with the rest of your life.


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## Chaparral

BTW, I will be shocked if she goes to Africa eventually. That's pie in the sky BS shes picked up from school and her new "buddies". She's no spring chicken and by the time three more years and the shine of school wears off, she will all new goals.


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## MrPack

Another thing she was upset about during the wedding was that none of my buddies or their wives/gf's (who have been like brothers to her for many years now) have contacted her during our separation to see how she is doing. She was saying jsut being around all of them this weekend was hard. I think it was reminding her of what she is leaving behind since she decided to walk away from our life. The thing I am worried about is that this wedding brought back memories to her of all of our friends hanging out together and now she's going to start trying to hangout more and be around more. 

As for moving on, I'm workign on getting an appointment with a lawyer this week to at least just get some knowledge of what to expect. I dont plan on contacting her until I am ready to really make some major changes with finances and then the next step will be divorce. She has finals this week so I figured I wouldnt get her full attention anyway if I try to talk to her about important issues this week.

I'm starting to have feelings of failure and wasted years. We were together for a total of almost 11 years married about 6...as I look back at that I feel like it was failed years and wasted years. I mean yea we had our great times thats for sure but was it all worth it now that I"m sitting here barely able to hang on to a normal life?


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## Absurdist

MrPac - I have read this board but have never posted. I feel compelled to do so today.

Your situation is so similar to a young man I was a mentor to it is almost startling. I felt so bad for him and feel bad for you. Sometimes my young friend was able to collect himself and other times he wanted to smash a closet wall... or go sit in the closet and cry. All these emotions are normal... they will pass in due time.

I think you wife is somewhat disingenuous. There is no way a med student graduates from medical school and then goes and finds her place in the sun. She has 3, 4, 5 or more years of residency in her future. She will be working 6 and sometimes 7 days a week. Since she is 29, she won't come up for air until age 40 much less travel and be a doc in some exotic location. Not to mention the huge amount of student debt she will incur and have to repay. She is either out of touch with reality or she is shooting you a line a BS.

Ah yes, the old "I love you and want to be best friends routine". This is bunk. You don't go from an intimate relationship to friends. This is simply a means by which your wife is absolving herself from guilt.

MRPack - right now you are in this terrible Chinese water torture h3ll of limbo. You don't know if you are going or coming and she keeps sending you these mixed messages. You can't go on like this forever. It will take a toll on your physical and emotional health. My young friend finally told his wife that she had to decide if she wanted to commit or get a divorce. "I don't know" was not an acceptable answer and would be taken that she opts for divorce. He gave her a month to respond one way or the other. She didn't so he took the only path he could take.

You seem to have good male friends. I urge you to hash this out with them. If they are good friends they will speak honestly with you and tell you things you may not want to hear but you need to hear.

The idea that you won't be able to find a new relationship is nutty. You are 32, unattached and with a good job. The wives of your married friends will fall all over themselves trying to play cupid and set you up. They live for such things. Quite frankly, women will find you. All you have to do is get yourself out into social situations even if you don't feel like it.

I will continue to follow this thread and maybe post a time or two. I have a vested interest in you now. You can do this whatever it may be.


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## MrPack

Absurdist said:


> MrPac - I have read this board but have never posted. I feel compelled to do so today.
> 
> Your situation is so similar to a young man I was a mentor to it is almost startling. I felt so bad for him and feel bad for you. Sometimes my young friend was able to collect himself and other times he wanted to smash a closet wall... or go sit in the closet and cry. All these emotions are normal... they will pass in due time.
> 
> I think you wife is somewhat disingenuous. There is no way a med student graduates from medical school and then goes and finds her place in the sun. She has 3, 4, 5 or more years of residency in her future. She will be working 6 and sometimes 7 days a week. Since she is 29, she won't come up for air until age 40 much less travel and be a doc in some exotic location. Not to mention the huge amount of student debt she will incur and have to repay. She is either out of touch with reality or she is shooting you a line a BS.
> 
> Ah yes, the old "I love you and want to be best friends routine". This is bunk. You don't go from an intimate relationship to friends. This is simply a means by which your wife is absolving herself from guilt.
> 
> MRPack - right now you are in this terrible Chinese water torture h3ll of limbo. You don't know if you are going or coming and she keeps sending you these mixed messages. You can't go on like this forever. It will take a toll on your physical and emotional health. My young friend finally told his wife that she had to decide if she wanted to commit or get a divorce. "I don't know" was not an acceptable answer and would be taken that she opts for divorce. He gave her a month to respond one way or the other. She didn't so he took the only path he could take.
> 
> You seem to have good male friends. I urge you to hash this out with them. If they are good friends they will speak honestly with you and tell you things you may not want to hear but you need to hear.
> 
> The idea that you won't be able to find a new relationship is nutty. You are 32, unattached and with a good job. The wives of your married friends will fall all over themselves trying to play cupid and set you up. They live for such things. Quite frankly, women will find you. All you have to do is get yourself out into social situations even if you don't feel like it.
> 
> I will continue to follow this thread and maybe post a time or two. I have a vested interest in you now. You can do this whatever it may be.


My appologies, I guess I never mentioned that she is in Naturalpathic Med School. She's going to be a naturalpath doctor (ND) with that said they do not require the same amount of residency like an MD would. She will litterally be done and a doctor in 3 more years. 

I do sometimes wonder if she is using the "oh I want to travel out of the country" as BS excuse. However I was there during orientation a couple years ago and they do have programs where new graduates go work and gain experience in other countries with the opportunity to stay when they become established.

Anyway Thank you for your words, you made alot of sense and my situation does seem very similar to the gentleman you were mentoring. 

I've been spending alot of time with my male friends most of whom are married or in serious relationships but these friends have also been friends with my wife for many many years so it's weird sometimes. I would say the past year she has sort of fallen out of this group of friends due to the hours and time she spends with school. So I know my buddies at least are on my side if you will not sure about the females in the group. I just hope my STBXW contiues to concentrate on her studies and her school friends and lets me have my time and happiness with my friends that she as essentially tossed aside in recent years.


----------



## MrPack

Bugged said:


> MrPack, if you were happy, they were not wasted years...you have to move on.
> **** happens, you move on, that's what you do.
> Are you seeing some friends, are you trying to hang out and take your mind off the divorce?
> I understand you need time on your own, but don't lock yourself up in your house..


I have been spending a lot of time with friends but there are still plenty of evenings or days that I sit around the house because i feel so drained emotionally. I know this is bad and it is something I'm really working on. 

This week my goal is to go to the gym at least 3 times during the work week and I'm going to start packing up all the photos around the house from our wedding and any photos of the two of us. I'm just tired of walking through my big empty house looking at these photos.


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## MrPack

Bugged said:


> Mrpack...something is not clear to me...is your wife aware that you're filing for divorce?I mean, she says she wants to leave the country and doesn't want to start a family..has she ever mentioned divorce? Sorry I might have forgotten this detail...
> In the past, did you pressure her to have kids? Or was it just an idea you both had while you were together..something that wouldn't happen in the near future?


I do not know if my wife has realized how close I am to the idea of divorce. Right now we are separated but she has given me NO indication of reconcilitation. I would think that in the back of her mind she knows that divorce is likely. That will be the next topic of conversation next time we schedule a talk.

When we first married 6 years ago we both wanted to eventually start a family. She was finishing her undergrad at the local university as was I and both planned normal 9-5 jobs. Then as years passed she kept changing her major, finally graduated and decided she wanted to go into the medical field. Yes I agreed to this but it took almost 3 years for her to figure out what type of medical field she wanted to get into. During these 3 years she drastically changed her outlook on OUR future as far as having kids. She kept pushing it further and further out. Then med school started and she changed even more and now we are here. I have a passion in my heard to be a father and she knows that. This is a big aspect of guilt she has and a big reason why our mariage is in shambles. She literally doesnt have it in her heart anymore to graduate and start a family. She wants to leave the country and help total strangers which is fine but yea she's ditching me and our marriage for that dream. I may have pressured her a little about having kids but not very often because it would always turn into a fight or her getting mad and making me feel guilty for bringing the subject up. 

I have a goal of having a serious talk with her within the next couple weeks after her finals are over but seriously the last 2 talks we've had gave me no hope for our marriage. She is basically pushing me to the side right now so she can live her life not have to worry or feel guilty about her husband sitting at home taking care of everything. We have an english bulldog who has been our daughter for the past 6 years we both have treated this dog as a freakin human better than a human and she has not asked about our dog once since we've been separated. This dog has been my life line through all of this so I'm sort of glad she isnt asking about her or wanting to take her. She is compartmenalizing our whole life right now because she is too weak or scared to face what is really going on.


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## honcho

MrPack said:


> I do not know if my wife has realized how close I am to the idea of divorce. Right now we are separated but she has given me NO indication of reconcilitation. I would think that in the back of her mind she knows that divorce is likely. That will be the next topic of conversation next time we schedule a talk.
> 
> When we first married 6 years ago we both wanted to eventually start a family. She was finishing her undergrad at the local university as was I and both planned normal 9-5 jobs. Then as years passed she kept changing her major, finally graduated and decided she wanted to go into the medical field. Yes I agreed to this but it took almost 3 years for her to figure out what type of medical field she wanted to get into. During these 3 years she drastically changed her outlook on OUR future as far as having kids. She kept pushing it further and further out. Then med school started and she changed even more and now we are here. I have a passion in my heard to be a father and she knows that. This is a big aspect of guilt she has and a big reason why our mariage is in shambles. She literally doesnt have it in her heart anymore to graduate and start a family. She wants to leave the country and help total strangers which is fine but yea she's ditching me and our marriage for that dream. I may have pressured her a little about having kids but not very often because it would always turn into a fight or her getting mad and making me feel guilty for bringing the subject up.
> 
> I have a goal of having a serious talk with her within the next couple weeks after her finals are over but seriously the last 2 talks we've had gave me no hope for our marriage. She is basically pushing me to the side right now so she can live her life not have to worry or feel guilty about her husband sitting at home taking care of everything. We have an english bulldog who has been our daughter for the past 6 years we both have treated this dog as a freakin human better than a human and she has not asked about our dog once since we've been separated. This dog has been my life line through all of this so I'm sort of glad she isnt asking about her or wanting to take her. She is compartmenalizing our whole life right now because she is too weak or scared to face what is really going on.


You keep focusing on her dreams of leaving the country and school which long term probably wont happen. 

You want to be a father and have a family. She does not. Even if she comes back to the marriage you have this issue. Your spouse sounds like someone who wont take the last "hurdle" to grow up. Changing majors, graduating then deciding she wants to pursue a different path etc etc. Why do I get the feeling that in a year or two a different major will interest her? 

She will most likely leave filing for divorce up to you, she doesn't want any appearance of being the bad guy or hurting you. Her way of facing whats really going on is to avoid and not deal with it. Its what they do. 

At this point you are probably better off just getting out of the way and let her sink or swim by herself. You want kids and family life and your probably never going to get that with her.


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## Absurdist

"My appologies, I guess I never mentioned that she is in Naturalpathic Med School. She's going to be a naturalpath doctor (ND) with that said they do not require the same amount of residency like an MD would. She will litterally be done and a doctor in 3 more years." 


So, herbs, homeopathy, holistic medicine and the like. I am somewhat skeptical but confess ignorance so I will not comment about something I have no familiarity. It really doesn't matter and my advice remains the same.

Good for you on going to the gym. My young friend did the same and got into cross fit type things. I hardly recognized him after a few months. It did loads for him physically and for his emotional well being.

MrPack a question. Could it be that your wife wants a divorce but doesn't have the emotional honesty to ask for one? That was the case with my young friend. His wife wanted out but couldn't pull the trigger. She preferred to string him along until he couldn't stand it any more. Then she could say "well, he divorced me". Duplicitous to the nth degree since that was what she really wanted. She just didn't want to be the "bad guy".

All of this was a shame. There were issues with both of them but they could have worked this out with mutual commitment. He was committed but she wasn't. By the way, it was law school for her rather than med school. She was going to save the world and help the poor. She's now a grunt associate lawyer doing car wreck cases... Go figure. There was a good ending for my friend but I don't want to bore you with my words.

Keep doing what you are doing. There is a marked difference between the first post in your first thread and your words today. I see some growth... and maybe some grudging acceptance. I wish it weren't so but it's reality.


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## LongWalk

Naturopathy is probably not all BS because conventional medicine has plenty of nonsense. That said naturopathy probably attracts a lot of dysfunctional people because it represents rebellion against convention. Marriage is a convention. She is rebelling against it. Traditional medicine is convention. She won't have that either.

Your wife does not have her shyte together. You have been taking care of her for a long time. So, yes you have wasted years. But you are by no means old in the reproductive/relationship game.

Her complete lack of affection for the dog is evidence that she does not maintain bonds. The sooner you divorce her the better. As to talking with her in person, may I kindly advise you to skip. In fact, it would be better if you stopped meeting her altogether. Limit all communication to email. You do not have remove her from FB but put her into the see-nothing category. If there is some function to block seeing her wall, take advantage of it. The proper saying of goodbyes is romanticised. Don't talk with her at all, block her phone number.

The more you reveal about your STBX, the less desirable she seems. At best she neurotic and pain in the butt. By the way, you mutual friends are shunning her because they never really liked her. She was probably tolerated because they thought well of you. Your life is going to be so much better without her.

p.s. Helping total strangers is often a sign of dysfunction. The sign to look for is balance and personal cost. She is willing to sacrifice her personal life and marriage for the abstract victims of an unkind universe. She might well also sacrifice her own children if she had them. The dog and you have been jettisoned to lighten her rudderless boat.


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## Tron

LongWalk said:


> Naturopathy is probably not all BS because conventional medicine has plenty of nonsense. That said naturopathy probably attracts a lot of dysfunctional people because it represents rebellion against convention. Marriage is a convention. She is rebelling against it. Traditional medicine is convention. She won't have that either.
> 
> Your wife does not have her shyte together. You have been taking care of her for a long time. So, yes you have wasted years. But you are by no means old in the reproductive/relationship game.
> 
> Her complete lack of affection for the dog is evidence that she does not maintain bonds. The sooner you divorce her the better. As to talking with her in person, may I kindly advise you to skip. In fact, it would be better if you stopped meeting her altogether. Limit all communication to email. You do not have remove her from FB but put her into the see-nothing category. If there is some function to block seeing her wall, take advantage of it. The proper saying of goodbyes is romanticised. Don't talk with her at all, block her phone number.
> 
> The more you reveal about your STBX, the less desirable she seems. At best she neurotic and pain in the butt. By the way, you mutual friends are shunning her because they never really liked her. She was probably tolerated because they thought well of you. Your life is going to be so much better without her.
> 
> p.s. Helping total strangers is often a sign of dysfunction. The sign to look for is balance and personal cost. She is willing to sacrifice her personal life and marriage for the abstract victims of an unkind universe. She might well also sacrifice her own children if she had them. The dog and you have been jettisoned to lighten her rudderless boat.


Nice post LongWalk! A lot of truth there.



LongWalk said:


> p.s. Helping total strangers is often a sign of dysfunction.


Kind of had to smile at this one though. How dysfunctional must we be? :wink2:


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## farsidejunky

Bugged said:


> So people like the docs working for medecins sans frontiere are dysfunctional?


The qualifier was OFTEN, not ALWAYS.



Bugged said:


> MrPack, this kind of posts are unhealty in my opinion..some men here are trying to fuel hate for you wife probably based on their negative experiences...they don't even know her...your wife is just a young woman who has realized what she thought she wanted when she was even younger is not right for her.


Actually Longwalk is one of the most thoughtful and level headed posters on TAM, and has been for years.



Bugged said:


> Amicable divorce is your best option...if you start being an ******* it will backfire..finding a rabid lawyer will only mean she will fight back, trying to get as much as she can out of the divorce...maybe even make you pay for half her debts...*be very careful*...
> Does not matter who's right or wrong, focus on you goal..it should be to obtain quick and low cost divorce...it is already taking an emotional toll on you, does not need to take a financial one as well
> Because everything else *will not make a damn difference in the end*..
> just my 2 cents


Amicable divorce? Yes. Alleviating her guilt over leaving by remaining "friends" and still meeting emotional needs? Negative.

Don't mistake taking steps for detachment as cruelty.


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## farsidejunky

Going dark is not about punishing. It is about detachment, and is incredibly mature in that she has chosen to leave, so he needs to heal. In order to heal, one must detach. In order to detach, one must stop engaging, or going dark.

The rabid lawyer? Nah. Just reach an agreement and do it without them.

Her guilt is her problem, not his. The moment she decided to end it, her emotional needs were no longer his responsibility. Her choices led to the guilt, and is the price to pay for her choosing this life course. This is not about retribution, but again about healing for the OP. As for her, all choices in life have consequences. 

As for the nailing her to the cross bit... Refusing to meet her needs is not nailing her to the cross. It is necessary for detachment for both of them. 

I see some projection of your own in your post, Bugged. I sincerely hope your situation is getting easier for you.


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## MrPack

All great inputs and I'm taking all your advice to heart. I had a long talk with my neighbor last night. Him and his wife became very close to us throught the years especially me since my wife was always busy. He is "shocked" about how bad this has gotten and it was kind of emotional for me to explain the story to him. I guess it still hurts and it's weird to say that we are looking at divorce because we've grown apart and she has changed so much. Most people who havent been in this position seem to be suprised when I tell them why our marriage is in shambles. 

Longwalk, you mentioned our friends shunning her, I wouldnt say they are shunning her I would simply just say that they havent reached out to her much at all during this time. But that is her fault. She was always involved in all of our activities with our friends until this past year. The way my STBXW was so fixated on that subject when I saw her makes me worry that she's going to try and reach out to them more often and start to try and hangout and be places that I may be at with my friends. I guess thats just something I have to stop worrying about becaue I cannot control her decisions.


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## farsidejunky

You are right; worry about what you can control, Pack. 

Focus on being the best, most amazing you that you can possibly be. If you run into her, be cordial but brief, and find something else on which to fixate your attention. 

Have you ever read the book Hold On To Your N.U.T.'s by Wayne Levine? If you haven't, I would highly recommend it. It is a simple yet excellent manual for setting out to be the man you want to be.


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## Chaparral

He needs a rabid/really good lawyer to protect himself from the debt she has incurred.

Going dark is a signal that, no they will and cannot be friends after her selfish decisions and heart breaking actions. 

Hr whole future sounds like pie in the sky BS. I cant imagine Africans have a big need for an her doctor. I think they already have those in abundance. They eed medicine and surgeons.


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## MrPack

farsidejunky said:


> You are right; worry about what you can control, Pack.
> 
> Focus on being the best, most amazing you that you can possibly be. If you run into her, be cordial but brief, and find something else on which to fixate your attention.
> 
> Have you ever read the book Hold On To Your N.U.T.'s by Wayne Levine? If you haven't, I would highly recommend it. It is a simple yet excellent manual for setting out to be the man you want to be.


I have not read that book but will definately check it out. I've been trying to find a good book to read to help me get back to my old self and happy again. Thank you.


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## farsidejunky

Bugged said:


> As for my situation I moved out and my partner is not even letting me see my cat, talking about pets...some men, like most on this 3d are just vengeful..I hope OP is not.*For his own good *in this case.


Bugged, I am saying this as gently as I can, and from a place of concern and empathy towards you.

What you are mentioning here versus what men are saying is textbook projection. 

Again, I truly and sincerely hope you get an amicable resolution to your situation.


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## honcho

MrPack said:


> All great inputs and I'm taking all your advice to heart. I had a long talk with my neighbor last night. Him and his wife became very close to us throught the years especially me since my wife was always busy. He is "shocked" about how bad this has gotten and it was kind of emotional for me to explain the story to him. I guess it still hurts and it's weird to say that we are looking at divorce because we've grown apart and she has changed so much. Most people who havent been in this position seem to be suprised when I tell them why our marriage is in shambles.
> 
> Longwalk, you mentioned our friends shunning her, I wouldnt say they are shunning her I would simply just say that they havent reached out to her much at all during this time. But that is her fault. She was always involved in all of our activities with our friends until this past year. The way my STBXW was so fixated on that subject when I saw her makes me worry that she's going to try and reach out to them more often and start to try and hangout and be places that I may be at with my friends. I guess thats just something I have to stop worrying about becaue I cannot control her decisions.


During separations its an awkward time for friends also. It isn't unusual for them to distance themselves and see how things play out. Her being fixated isn't surprising because she does seem to have a need for approval or not being judged.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Vulcan2013

I think you are handling this OK, but you need to be clear that being "friends" with her is a non-starter. File and move on; make sure you aren't responsible for her debts. 

Don't know much about naturalpathic "medicine" but I doubt many countries recognize it. Sounds like quackery to me. Is that as intense as a "real" med school? Makes me wonder if she is using "school" (90 hrs/week, and study on weekends) as a way to start a new life without you. Some people are cowards, and I think she is making you the bad guy.


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## MrPack

I think I'm finally excepting what seems to be reality with my situation. 

1. I'm about 99% sure this turns into divorce.
2. My STBXW is perfectly content on dragging this limbo separation out as long as she can so she doesn't have to face the music and truly live life on her own. 
3. I have a lot of growing to do emotionally and physically to get my happiness back.
4. I fought long and hard to keep our marriage together so there's nothing more I can do to change where we are.

With all that said I'm struggling to find the words to take the next step forward. I want to have a talk with her next week but I want to make sure I say all the right things so I don't sound desperate or sound like I'm all tore up inside (which I am). I really don't think she is prepared to hear what I have to say in regards to cutting her off financially and moving forward with the divorce process. I know she will well up the tears and play that card because she knows I'm a big softy when women cry. I am scared that people will look at me as the bad guy if I file but I cant keep living in this limbo. We lost some people at work this week so my load as increased significantly and I do feel I've been slacking during this separation and it kills me. I'm struggling off and on with what my future looks like. I'm slowly getting my house ready to sell and just doing things around the house to get it ready makes me sad. I don't have a plan yet as to where I will live but I know I am always welcome at my folks house until I get my self together. I have days, hours, minutes where I think about dating other women then the next second I get a knot in my stomach thinking about that. 

I guess my main question is how do I approach my conversation with her in regards to moving forward without being a total A hole but also standing my ground and coming off confident, strong and content?


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## farsidejunky

"Wife, I love you, and always will. But it is clear you are unable or unwilling to love me the way that I want to be loved. For this reason, it is best that we part ways. I will be filing for divorce next (day, week, etc.) so that we can both pursue the things in life we want without any hindrances."


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## Absurdist

MR. Pack I don't think we can give you voice although farside has taken a good shot at it. Right now you are like Sisyphus. Rolling a big mental and emotional rock up a hill only to see it roll back down again. This simply can't go on or you will destroy your mental, spiritual and emotional health.

Ms. Pack - I love you and some part of me always will, I'm still ready to make a commitment if I get reciprocity from you. Evidently you are not ready for commitment. I can no longer live in suspended animation. Ultimately it will destroy our marriage and our soul. Our marriage is on life support and in a vegetative state. One of us must pull the plug. You can't do it. Your're too afraid and indecisive. Accordingly by default that mantle falls on me. It is grossly unfair that I'm forced take this action since I don't want to, but the leadership role has fallen in my lap. Out of an abundance of love and care for you I must take the only option that is available to me to terminate this lifeless existence. Thus Ms. Pack, I am filing for divorce. Something I never thought I would have to do. I will be filing on ________,__________2015. We must make plans to end our financial connections. I am dropping the insurance on your car and discontinuing your cell phone service. You must make plans to obtain your own insurance and work with your own cell phone carrier.[set forth other financial arrangements that must be terminated and resolved} After the divorce has run its course and if our paths shall cross, I promise to treat your cordially and with good will just like any other acquaintance. I guess this is good bye. Thank you for 7 wonderful years. They will be etched in my memory. I bid you a fond adieu.


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## honcho

Speak with an attorney first so you understand the whole process. Fast divorces take forever, you may also live in a state requiring a year separation first. Knowing and understanding goes a long way in overcoming some of the fears of divorce. 

Don't dwell on the past, try and not play the blame game. Keep it short and simple and have a plan. The more "in control" you appear the less likely it will turn into a fight. 

Filing for divorce doesn't mean your divorced. It starts the clock and it can be stopped. Don't fret about looking like the bad guy etc. By the time divorce gets done no one remembers who filed or even why most times.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

re: Helping other often being dysfunctional
Altruism is fine as long as it does not wrench the bicycle or car from a rational patch into ditch, especially if there are other passengers. My father had all kinds of grandiose projects that he pour most of the family savings into. Moreover, he insisted on the entire family supporting his madness by becoming fanatics. He was a psychiatrist and genuinely wanted to help others because he was so broken inside.

Helping others is meaningful when it actually can produce a result without costing too much. A friend of mine suffered liver disease. He was in the organ donor line but nothing came up. His own son stepped up. My friend got a few more years of life. He lived as fully as he could. His son's liver regrew. He did not offer a new piece to his father when the hepatitis destroyed what he had given. He had already been generous.

People who are involved in charities are often passive aggressive and manipulative. The Red Cross and many other charities are packed with fraud and corruption. 

To me rational and sensible altruism follows a different pattern. You are involved in an activity that you love. Later you transfer knowledge to others altruistically to promote your own passion. Someone, for example, loves science. They become a teacher who gives a great deal to their students. The teacher who gives are great deal to their students but does not have the time and energy to have sex with their own spouse is dysfunctional. There has to be a balance.

Mr Pack's wife doesn't want children. Mr Pack does. These are incompatible, especially since she wants to help the children of others and not those with the two of them who are asking to be born.

Mr Pack's wife may have her beauty and charm. I don't urge him to be bitter or negate her. Nor to I suggest that he seek revenge. Nor should he punish her. He is suffering and must get out of relationship that is being terminated with emotional cost to him.

I don't think talking with her at all to soften the blow is the right approach. Being nice is just feeding her dysfunction. The best thing is for Mr Pack to accept that his love for her cannot be extinguished with the flip of a light switch. When one chokes out a harmful fire by covering it with something every time you lift the something up you fan the flames. No contact and the 180 are designed to quicken the process and reduce the pain and damage.

I am all for Mr Pack reconciling with his wife if she wakes up and is prepared to do work in IC and MC. She probably is not capable of it, but his best shot at R is that she feels the loss of him so acutely that she examines her own behavior. If she came over to the apartment and insisted on hysterical bonding sex while swearing that their marriage was central to her, that would be a happy development if she were willing to make an effort to meet his needs. She is not wrong in choosing to dream of treating ebola sufferers with herbal tea. That is the romantic fiction.

People get feverish over Tupperware, Herbal Life and many other projects. Healthy people who understand codependency can stop these dysfunctional behaviors. 

My brother who had schizophrenia got my dad, board certified psychiatrist and neurologist who graduated from a grade A world famous state university, to join Amway. The two of them went insane with getting rich by being in a pyramid scheme. It would have been good if my mother could have put her foot down. But she tolerated it. My brother died of his illness eventually in any case. My father could have made much more money practicing medicine but he was burnt out by his compassion. Helping people get rich through Amway was just a delusion that put off reality.

Mr Pack's wife is sabotaging her marriage in favor of a future good to humanity. This is a boot in the teeth to Mr Pack. Don't they have a dog? She is letting it out by the side of the highway so that she can volunteer at the animal shelter.


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## LongWalk

Bugged,

It is a good thing that you are here, providing an alternative view.

Keep writing.


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## Ynot

Absurdist said:


> MR. Pack I don't think we can give you voice although farside has taken a good shot at it. Right now you are like Sisyphus. Rolling a big mental and emotional rock up a hill only to see it roll back down again. This simply can't go on or you will destroy your mental, spiritual and emotional health.
> 
> Ms. Pack - I love you and some part of me always will, I'm still ready to make a commitment if I get reciprocity from you. Evidently you are not ready for commitment. I can no longer live in suspended animation. Ultimately it will destroy our marriage and our soul. Our marriage is on life support and in a vegetative state. One of us must pull the plug. You can't do it. Your're too afraid and indecisive. Accordingly by default that mantle falls on me. It is grossly unfair that I'm forced take this action since I don't want to, but the leadership role has fallen in my lap. Out of an abundance of love and care for you I must take the only option that is available to me to terminate this lifeless existence. Thus Ms. Pack, I am filing for divorce. Something I never thought I would have to do. I will be filing on ________,__________2015. We must make plans to end our financial connections. I am dropping the insurance on your car and discontinuing your cell phone service. You must make plans to obtain your own insurance and work with your own cell phone carrier.[set forth other financial arrangements that must be terminated and resolved} After the divorce has run its course and if our paths shall cross, I promise to treat your cordially and with good will just like any other acquaintance. I guess this is good bye. Thank you for 7 wonderful years. They will be etched in my memory. I bid you a fond adieu.


Wow! I just read this and boy does it make sense. But at the same time this is pretty much the exact same thing that was done to me. I resisted it to the end, because I felt divorce was failure and I never wanted to be a failure. 
It is very interesting to read these types of exchanges. Bugged is offering an alternative perspective, which equally makes sense.


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## Marduk

Bugged, thanks for the counter point.

It's not so much that I think that she's defined as a manipulative person. As in, it's hardcoded into her being.

It's that this is a profoundly messed up situation, and even when it's not, people behave in certain ways. One common way for someone to act in this situation is to use their hurt to manipulate the other person into providing comfort and safety.

Been there. Done that.


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## Chaparral

A rabid lawyer isnt used to get revenge on a spouse. Its to keep
From getting scre$wed. He should not have to pay for her education loans and fantasys of saving the world.


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## farsidejunky

If his absence makes her go running into the arms of another man it would tell him exactly what he needs to know.

You are telling him essentially to not go dark out of fear she might find someone else?

Pack, never, ever, ever make a decision based on fear. Make it on principles.

Decisions based on fear frequently cause you to compromise your principles.


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## WorkingOnMe

Bugged said:


> As for my situation I moved out


I'm sure he'll thank you for that eventually.


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## MrPack

Okay seems like there are mixed opinions here on how I should be treating my situation. I spent the first 2 weeks of my separation begging my wife to come home it only made things worse. We are approaching almost 2 months I think she knows how I feel in regards to wanting to reconcile but on certain terms. What good is it going to do if I beg her and cry to her everytime we talk, text or email? As far as being friends should this go south I'm sorry but emotionally I cannot go from being with someone 10 years married 6 to then just being their friend, this isnt highschool this isnt a break up from a girlfriend its a F****** marriage! There is no lack of consideration either, there never has been. If you talk to anyone who even remotely knows me and my wife they will tell you I have been a saint through the years and even now I have yet to get upset and really unload on her about my frustrations. I know I've been plenty considerate. Its her that is not being considerate to anyone but herself.


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## Absurdist

Bugged said:


> I'm sorry..is she not ok with the terms or she doesn't want to reconcile at all?
> 
> 
> I meant she might consider your 'going dark' as a lack of consideration...so you've been a saint for years...why do you want to reconcile then..i mean if she's selfish and childish, just end this. Do it for yourself. Not that it is easy but she isn't likely going to change.
> It's really sad though.


Yes Bugged it is very sad.

What exactly do you want MrPack to do? He is still ready for love and commitment but she is the one running away from him. He can't chase after her forever. His emotional bucket will run dry at some point. Just based on MrPack's posts, she is very gamey. She plays mind games. It's hard to reconcile with someone that refuses to tell you the truth or sends mixed messages.


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## LongWalk

Bugged,

You have a point. Going dark can extinguish a relationship. However, Mr Pack's wife moved out, i.e., she went dark on him. She told him that they are effectively single and can date. So, Mr Pack would only be closing a door through which there is only a crack of light shining. If he shuts the door and she hears that finality, maybe she will turn the knob and try to reenter their relationship.

Cutting off the telephone and insurance are just the logical step. Should he just keep supporting her while she excludes him from her life?

In his last post Mr Pack has described their relationship as codependent. She needs. He supplies. This has gone on a long time. Now the dysfunction from her side is growing. It would not come as a surprise to learn that FOO issues contribute to the pattern in their relationship.

For example, a person who grew up with an alcoholic parent may marry and alcoholic or drink themselves. What is unhealthy is sometimes the normal emotional set up. That is why therapy is is necessary to break codependence.


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## Pluto2

@Bugged, I'm sorry for what you're going through, but I don't believe you are understanding the purpose and intent of the 180 or "going dark" as has been described. When anyone in a relationship is being repeatedly hurt, or manipulated, or lied to, or when you are codependent, that person is and remains unable to make sound rational decisions about their future in the relationship. No one can survive in a relationship when they are desperate to keep the other party in the relationship. You lose yourself. If that happens, the relationship is already hopelessly lost. 

So the 180 is not about pushing the other person away, its about steps you can take to make yourself healthier and to detach from a destructive pattern in a relationship. If your fear is that it will drive the other person into a relationship with someone else, well, the relationship is pretty sick to begin with isn't it.


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## Pluto2

No. I respectfully disagree.

Lots of partners in a relationship in crisis have implemented the 180 successfully and used the growing process to save a marriage. It is not synonymous with the end of relationship, only the end of their destructive cycle. 

Your advice suggests that the OP should continue being co-dependent and that never healthy.


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## phillybeffandswiss

Bugged said:


> Except that people are human..and might feel vulnerable and alone.


 Yes, this applies to the OP as well.



> and if he goes dark, he better be damn 100% sure that he wants to end this relationship and divorce because that will be the only outcome with someone in his wife's situation, even if she doesn't ed up finding someone else..she has a lot on her plate and is already detaching. .


Strange. All of the above screams she was already detaching, long before he came here. She removed her ring, moved out, doesn't want kids, wants to travel and wants to remain friends, but if he listens to her demands and actions, by doing the 180, he is the one to "end this relationship and divorce?" You know, because "she has a lot on her plate?"

Sorry, to me that, is some highly illogical thinking.


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## phillybeffandswiss

Bugged said:


> HE seems to be the one who wants to reconcile.She left, he wanted her to come home.


This short summary doesn't concern what I addressed about your posts. 



Bugged said:


> Does it make sense now?


No, not concerning your conclusions.

She has gone "dark" by removing herself from the marriage, living her own life, making life plans without him and legally separating. If he continues chasing, which has *OBVIOUSLY* not worked, she continues detaching. If he does the 180, which is something completely different, he gets stronger and her control gets weaker whether they reconcile or not.

He needs to take her at her word and actions, full plate or not.


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## Affaircare

I'm aiming this comment at @MrPack but if this helps you understand also, @Bugged, then I will consider it useful. 

If a person wants to be in a relationship, that by necessity, means that they are agreeing "to relate with the other person. It will be mutual (both partners "relate") and usually in a marriage there is a public statement of exclusivity and a statement of each partner voluntarily agreeing to spend the rest of their life treating the spouse in a loving manner. There is no statement of "I will feel this way for the rest of my life" and there is generally an understanding that part of being married is being open and honest with your spouse to a degree that means you both know and are known by your spouse. 

So there is a reasonable expectation for your spouse to continue to "relate" to you...not move out. There is a reasonable expectation for your spouse to continue to be exclusive to you and you alone...not sharing emotional and physical intimacy with another. There is a reasonable expectation for your spouse to continue to treat you in at minimum a respectful and courteous way...not disrespecting you, your decisions, your life and lifestyle..and not being discourteous, ill-mannered and uncivil toward you. There is a reasonable expectation for your spouse to continue to treat you with respect regardless of their "feelings" because feelings change with hunger, tiredness, time of the month, stress, etc. and can just as easily be changed back! There is a reasonable expectation for your spouse to continue to be open and transparent with you...not closing, hiding, lying and secretive. 

If one spouse were to suddenly STOP relating, stop being exclusive, stop treating the other in a respectful manner, stop being consistently loving and not basing it on feelings, and stop being open and honest...then the spouse who stopped all that is the spouse that damaged and ended the relationship... 

NOT the spouse that said, "Okay if that is your decision I will abide by it. But as with every choice there is a benefit and a cost. The benefit may be that you are free to have sex with others and see if the grass is greener, but the cost of this decision is that you will no longer have access to the benefits that I offer." 

Going dark and doing the 180 does not mean being emotionally distant to someone who is trying to connect with you. It means accepting that the person you WISH you could connect with no longer wants to connect with you, and thus, you no longer accept their emotional crumbs. 

The way I envision it: if someone wants the full benefit of ME and all that I have to offer, they need to give me the FULL FEAST ...not some crumbs. I will give ALL that I have to offer, if they also give me ALL that they have to offer. Start giving crumbs by giving some to someone else or by being loyal to someone else, and I will withdraw, and I didn't start that--you did, but giving what was mine to someone else.


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## Chaparral

Nothing has been stated to indicate she has t already "completely detached". Not only that, she has indicated they can date other people. But she hasnt taken over all her bills. So not only does she want to date, she doesnt want to date her husband but she will still accept him subsidizing her life style.

Can anyone point to even one thing she has done to suggest she wants to stay married?


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## phillybeffandswiss

Bugged said:


> but there are always two side to every story..


She left and supports herself, that is not in dispute.


> Obviously she made the decision to walk...the reasons apparently are that she has changed her plans ...I'm not trying to justify anyone...I'm tryin to understand..she says she still loves him, apparently that is shooting BS, some people here seem to have the ability to read minds...he would like to reconcile but on his terms(we don't know what these terms are, maybe they're incompatible with what she wants)...all I'm saying is that going dark will probably cause her *to completely detach from him*. I don't see a chance to reconcile at that point.
> If that will make him feel better...fantastic.


She took off the ring, gave him the friend's zone speech, moved out, has decided against kids, increased her work hours and pays her own way. None of that involves mind reading, I'm basing my comments off her words and actions. Her "Love" proves nothing concerning divorce, friends, detachment, reconciliation or marriage. Unless, of course you "read minds."

*"Completely detach from him"* has already occurred to me. Now, she is a cake eater.

.


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## phillybeffandswiss

Bugged said:


> They had a bad marriage for 2 years...MrPack did not give a lot of details and it is his right to do so. Apparently everything is her fault, for not knowing what she wants..he's been a saint..but there are always two side to every story..


I see plenty of details in the post below, no attempt at being a saint and mutual sharing of "fault" in the marriage.



MrPack said:


> I thought I said her age at the beginning but I guess not, shes 29, nothing to hide there. As far as us not being 100% happy for the past couple years I'm still trying to figure that all out. I just know that she was always busy with school and I was always busy with my career so there was resentment on both ends. I would say that we had a VERY up and down sex life, great for a few months at a time then slowed way down. That's coming from her and I. Weve struggled financially for years so that was always an issue. I suffer from anxiety and it can be quite debilitating at times not wanting to go out and do new things. When I'm struggling with my anxiety I become somewhat of a home body. We've gone back and forth in regards to when or if we will have kids. I've always wanted kids but was wiling to wait, she kept putting it off and now is to the point where she doesn't even know if she wants kids.
> 
> Sorry I'm normally a very private person, this whole sharing thing is new to me. But I also understand I cant get much help unless I open up. I'm not trying to hide anything I just didn't know where to start I guess.


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## Pluto2

@Bugged, you remember the phrase "have your cake and eat it, too." That's where the TAM term cake-eater comes from. It means someone who wants some of the benefits of a marital relationship while simultaneously engaging in an extra-marital relationship.


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## Absurdist

Bugged said:


> I think his anxiety played a role...but I'm not sure because I think it is a 'delicate' subject and i don't want to intrude..*he also said he's been a saint*..so ???...I often said I had the impression she left because she couldn't stand the 'pressure' anymore...people that struggle with anxiety sometimes put a lot of pressure on their partners...maybe it's the starting a family thing.
> We'll see.
> @MrPack hope you're doing well. Bring us updates



Actually he didn't say that. He stated that other people said he was a saint in how he engaged his wife. He didn't make that claim on his own behalf.

Throughout this entire thread he has acknowledged his own faults and issues.

We only see MrPack's side of the story. His wife, no doubt, has a different perspective. But she's not here posting. The only opinions and judgments we can make are from MrPack's point of view. So far I find him credible.

I've watched this exact same thing happen with another couple 7 years ago. It's like _deja vu_ for me. It makes me very sad.


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## MrPack

Bugged said:


> They had a bad marriage for 2 years...MrPack did not give a lot of details and it is his right to do so. Apparently everything is her fault, for not knowing what she wants..he's been a saint..but there are always two side to every story..
> 
> Obviously she made the decision to walk...the reasons apparently are that she has changed her plans ...I'm not trying to justify anyone...I'm tryin to understand..she says she still loves him, apparently that is shooting BS, some people here seem to have the ability to read minds...he would like to reconcile but on his terms(we don't know what these terms are, maybe they're incompatible with what she wants)...all I'm saying is that going dark will probably cause her *to completely detach from him*. I don't see a chance to reconcile at that point.
> If that will make him feel better...fantastic.


Bugged, she went dark on me the day she walked out of our house and our marriage. For the first 3 weeks it was me and only me initiating communication. She knows I do not want a future living in some strange country or a future without having kids. Up to now she has made it very clear that she see's her future without kids and living in another country practicing medicine. Whether that actually happens 3 years from now I dont know but I do know that I cannot physically or mentally wait that long to find out. Why is it that you think she is the victim here? Why should I continue to chase her and look weak and pathetic when she hasnt chased me or shown any interest in reconciling since she left? Yes a marriage is a two way street but SHE left not me. SHE said no to marriage counseling. SHE took her ring off first. SHE said she wants us to live separate lives. SHE is the one who literally asks nothing about what is going on in my life right now other than when she needs something. 

I dunno maybe someday we will reconcile but right now I have seen ZERO inidication that she is looking that direction.


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## farsidejunky

Go dark. For yourself; not to spite her.

Begin the healing process.


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## Momofthree2015

I have to ask... I haven't read through every post or response, but I've seen enough of people's comments to help fuel the flames of your anger. I have to ask, HAVE YOU considered talking to a marriage counselor alone? You might think that's a silly idea, but honestly it is the perfect place to begin, to at least get a handle on your own emotions anyway. I mean, at the very least speaking to ONE person who is a professional in the field of helping couples, either reunite and save their marriage or help cope with a separation or divorce, and listening to and receiving some guidance from ONE rational neutral voice in your situation is a step in a positive direction. A marriage counselor is there to help you focus your energy and thoughts, and lend a voice to your frustrations, and help you to sort out the rational from irrational thoughts you might be experiencing. At least you can vent your frustrations in a manner that might achieve a more positive outcome with their help and keen insight. It will help you get off that emotional roller coaster ride you've been on. It would be better for you than allowing yourself to get worked up listening to a ton of different strangers, all of whom have probably suffered through their own relationship troubles. (Likely many here are still in the midst of their own emotional turmoil in their personal relationship, so their advice may not be so helpful to your own unique situation.) Don't allow other people's volatile emotions affect your own. You are in a vulnerable place, and it's not a place anyone likes to be in indefinitely. It's a scary place to find yourself in, when you've been part of being a couple for so long, and uncertain of your future together. I do understand that, and yes, I have been separated from my spouse before for about three months. We actually filed for divorce, had three children involved, and stopped the process dead in it's tracks... (There was alot more drama involved, but that was the key points.) I'm a pretty private person, and close friends are few, since the majority of my time is devoted to my family, and my children are a huge part of that. My spouse and I decided to try another go at our marriage but we had to speak with a marriage counselor for some help. I received some unsolicited advice from my spouse's family, who told me we should divorce... Let's just say that their family ties are not so great and it leave it at that. I sought some advice of my own from a pastor and his wife, plus another member of the same church gave me some good sound advice and insight on how to deal with very tough decisions and situations in a marriage. I made the first move, and called... opening the door for conversation to begin. I brought up that I would be willing to attend counseling, alone, and together. My call opened that line of communication, and we had not spoken in nearly three months. My spouse kept me on the phone for many hours, and honestly it was the most we had spoken in over a year. My spouse had not seen our children in those three months of separation either. So believe me when I say, I know how painful it can be, being separated. It's difficult for everyone involved. Like you, I had put all of my own life plans I had for myself on hold. I wanted to have my degree earned by now, but I've moved across several states twice for my spouses job. I've given up alot, and we added children to our family unit. I felt very taken for granted, and unappreciated for the dedication and support I'd felt I had contributed to my spouse's desires, career, and goals... The bottom line was I needed someone else to enable me to communicate effectively with my spouse all that I was feeling. I felt alone and trapped in a bad marriage, with someone who treated me like a servant, devoid of all feelings. Life is still not perfect; not that it is ever going to be that... But you have to begin somewhere from a reasonable place, and sometimes it helps when you have a voice of reason sitting beside you guiding you through that communication to resolve what steps you should take next, and maybe keeping you from jumping to alot of wrong conclusions that will have a negative life changing affect on your life, and someone you once fell in love with.


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## MrPack

Momofthree2015 said:


> I have to ask... I haven't read through every post or response, but I've seen enough of people's comments to help fuel the flames of your anger. I have to ask, HAVE YOU considered talking to a marriage counselor alone? You might think that's a silly idea, but honestly it is the perfect place to begin, to at least get a handle on your own emotions anyway. I mean, at the very least speaking to ONE person who is a professional in the field of helping couples, either reunite and save their marriage or help cope with a separation or divorce, and listening to and receiving some guidance from ONE rational neutral voice in your situation is a step in a positive direction. A marriage counselor is there to help you focus your energy and thoughts, and lend a voice to your frustrations, and help you to sort out the rational from irrational thoughts you might be experiencing. At least you can vent your frustrations in a manner that might achieve a more positive outcome with their help and keen insight. It will help you get off that emotional roller coaster ride you've been on. It would be better for you than allowing yourself to get worked up listening to a ton of different strangers, all of whom have probably suffered through their own relationship troubles. (Likely many here are still in the midst of their own emotional turmoil in their personal relationship, so their advice may not be so helpful to your own unique situation.) Don't allow other people's volatile emotions affect your own. You are in a vulnerable place, and it's not a place anyone likes to be in indefinitely. It's a scary place to find yourself in, when you've been part of being a couple for so long, and uncertain of your future together. I do understand that, and yes, I have been separated from my spouse before for about three months. We actually filed for divorce, had three children involved, and stopped the process dead in it's tracks... (There was alot more drama involved, but that was the key points.) I'm a pretty private person, and close friends are few, since the majority of my time is devoted to my family, and my children are a huge part of that. My spouse and I decided to try another go at our marriage but we had to speak with a marriage counselor for some help. I received some unsolicited advice from my spouse's family, who told me we should divorce... Let's just say that their family ties are not so great and it leave it at that. I sought some advice of my own from a pastor and his wife, plus another member of the same church gave me some good sound advice and insight on how to deal with very tough decisions and situations in a marriage. I made the first move, and called... opening the door for conversation to begin. I brought up that I would be willing to attend counseling, alone, and together. My call opened that line of communication, and we had not spoken in nearly three months. My spouse kept me on the phone for many hours, and honestly it was the most we had spoken in over a year. My spouse had not seen our children in those three months of separation either. So believe me when I say, I know how painful it can be, being separated. It's difficult for everyone involved. Like you, I had put all of my own life plans I had for myself on hold. I wanted to have my degree earned by now, but I've moved across several states twice for my spouses job. I've given up alot, and we added children to our family unit. I felt very taken for granted, and unappreciated for the dedication and support I'd felt I had contributed to my spouse's desires, career, and goals... The bottom line was I needed someone else to enable me to communicate effectively with my spouse all that I was feeling. I felt alone and trapped in a bad marriage, with someone who treated me like a servant, devoid of all feelings. Life is still not perfect; not that it is ever going to be that... But you have to begin somewhere from a reasonable place, and sometimes it helps when you have a voice of reason sitting beside you guiding you through that communication to resolve what steps you should take next, and maybe keeping you from jumping to alot of wrong conclusions that will have a negative life changing affect on your life, and someone you once fell in love with.


Thank you for sharing your story and your advice. I suggested marriage counseling from the start of this separation and she wasn't willing to do that. I have been seeing a marriage counsellor alone but I think I'm going to try and find a new one. I don't really connect with the one I've been going to. 

My wife and I have a scheduled talk Monday after work. I haven't fully decided what exactly I want to bring up but I do know that I want to talk about what potential if any she see's in us reconciling and if there is some potential there what she would be willing to do to make that happen. I will do anything. With that said I also want to hear it from her that she is truly 100% committed to her plans of no kids and wanting to leave the country after med school. Because if that is her absolute 100% plan I don't see myself in that plan, its very sad but I just don't. Yea I know it's only been about a month and a half being separated I know that's not a long time compared to others but its just really hard. I think sometimes I am jumping to quickly into major decisions but then again I'm not ready to pull the trigger on a divorce yet. There still seems to be unanswered questions. 

I will definitely let you all know how our talk goes Monday evening. Keep your fingers crossed for me. I've been praying a lot lately more than usual and have recently thought about finding a local church, I dunno maybe that will help maybe it wont....


----------



## farsidejunky

Pack, be willing to do anything that does not compromise your principles or make you be someone you are not, or you will only be prolonging the inevitable. 

If who you are is not enough, it is time to move on.

Hold true to the person you are.

ETA: Humbling yourself before your maker is a great thing. Just ask for the right thing. Ask for what should happen, nor necessarily what you want to happen.


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## MrPack

Bugged said:


> I don't think she's a victim...I don't think she's the executioner either..I mean...we literally read horror stories on this forum...your wife walked it's true, but she did not cheat, she was honest about her plans..she did not take advantage of your money (ok, ok the phone bill..but that's minimal), she did not ask you to pay for her med school in the first place I do NOT think she will make any request of that kind if you divorce, she wants to stay friends..let's say she handled this _decently _and i think you should part amicably..she did suggest you two meet regularly, (right now she's probably very busy with her finals)...you can't do that, I get it. *I'm not judging you,* you have every right to not feel like doing it.
> I was actually questioning the 'tone' that most users here used about your wife (liar, manipulative, shooting BS etc etc)...
> 6 weeks/8weeks is not a very long time but if you can't stand the situation, just file for divorce.
> Put yourself out of this misery.
> Try to think positive.


Bugged, I apologize that I sort of jumped down your throat. I'm sure just like most people on TAM you mean well and are just trying to help. I'm struggling right now, I understand that to some people her saying she wants to remain friends no matter what happens seems great but for me it would take a while to get to that point. If we continue this separation or even worse end up divorced I will have to get myself right and happy again before I could start hangingout with her. No matter what she'll always have a special place in my heart obviously but being good friends right away after what weve been through and what were going through would be tough.


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## RayJakeman

Med school is extremely demanding on a person--long hours, no sleep, and no and I mean NO room for lapse in judgment or attention. Its for that reason most students are single. A real relationship under these circumstances let alone a marriage cannot endure. In my opinion the promises in marriage do not include such endevours. Same way if your partner wants now to train for the olympic team, spend a year in Tibet and so on. It is great she has great ambitions and worthy endevours but they were best done before a promise. Face it---your seperation is final and move on with your life as she will have a completely different one after she is qualified (unless you want 6.00am ward rounds behind her all your life)


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## MrPack

I'm having a pretty rough day. Had another dream last night about my wife. Long story short in the dream she kept telling me "I let her go to easily" I know it's just a dream but man I woke up feeling bad. 

Now I'm sitting here at the tire shop waiting for my truck and one of our songs plays in the waiting area. I wish I wasn't such a stupid softy and so f****** sensitive. Anyway just wanted to vent...


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## Absurdist

_Long story short in the dream she kept telling me "*I let her go to easily"* _

Then on Monday, tell her exactly that. You never want to be in a place where she, or anyone else, believes that you let her go too easily. By the same token, neither one of you can live in the unhealthy world of "I don't know".

MrPack your wife attends what many think is a non-traditional medical school. Such places are usually populated by free thinkers... unconventional people who march to the beat of a different drum. How much influence do her classmates have on her thinking?

One of my favorite verses of the Bible is Jeremiah 17:9. The heart is more deceitful than anything else. Who can really understand it? Your wife may not even know her own heart and may find it incredibly difficult to explain it to you. Nevertheless, both of you must come to some decision in the near future or uncertainty is going to eat both of you alive.


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## LongWalk

I had a cousin whom I love very much. She was very beautiful, artistic and intelligent. From her mother she adopted an attitude towards food and medicine that was counter culture. She would not be in a relationship with a man who did not adhere to her vegetarian diet. It was not just no meat. She had ideas about certain types of vegetables as well. Stringent is a word that describes her new age beliefs. Vaccinating her children was out of the question.

She played the violin and piano. Had work at a ballet school as an accompanist. Created work as a story teller in public libraries. She ran and bicycled long distances. Her second husband was a guy who worked out and conformed to her eating strictures. Later, though, it turned out that it had all been an act. They had two kids and he started smoking pot and cheating on her. He infected her with HPV (she believes) but she did not go to a gynaecologist. Eventually she contracted cervical cancer and died. It was very painful and tragic. She was always looking for alternative medicine.

Her stubbornness when it came to her non conventional ideas and lifestyle was both admirable and foolish in my opinion. Relatively few men could has adapted to her. I am sure there were some but you have to be lucky when searching for a mate who is ideologically compatible.

You don't want to chase her ideas. You are being true to yourself. She is not even trying to meet your needs.

Also, remember that a truly in touch alternative medicine physician would be able to have children, study and work all at the same time. Having children is a hippy thing to do.


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## phillybeffandswiss

LongWalk said:


> You don't want to chase her ideas. You are being true to yourself. *She is not even trying to meet your needs.*
> 
> .


This.

You feel guilty, about not trying hard enough, but she is the one constantly throwing up roadblocks.


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## MrPack

Last night I went to happy hour with some friends and then a few of us came back to my house. I stayed up for a couple hours then went to bed, they stayed up for hours drinking which is fine but I'm not into that anymore. I had a great time last night but of course I woke up this morning feeling depressed as usual. As I'm cleaning up my house today I'm thinking about the past and how hard it is for me to do things on my own right now even though months ago before the separation I was already doing things on my own because my wife was usually spending her Saturday's studying. You would think that would make it easier to cope but its not.

My wife finished her finals yesterday and now has 2 weeks off from school until the next quarter starts. I find myself overthinking what she is doing now that she has time away from her studies. I struggled really hard this morning because I wanted to call or text her but I really didn't have a reason other than to hear her voice and try and find out what shes doing with her time. I feel like maybe I should reach out but then again I sit back and realize that it's always me reaching out and its not fair. It hurts so bad that she is able to just easily push our marriage to the side and do her thing because she says it's too hard for her if she allows herself to really think about our situation. She good at that.

I'm nervous and anxious thinking about our planned talk coming this Monday. I don't even know yet what I want to say or what I expect to get out of it. I can already see it she will still be in the mindset of "I don't know what to say or what I want yet". I cannot control what she feels or thinks and I'm not ready yet emotionally to just throw up my hands and file for divorce. I wish I could just wake up one day and feel good again and move forward.

As I sit here typing I look around my house and feel stressed and very overwhelmed at the thought of getting my house ready to sell, paying bills and a potential life without her. We were together for a total of 10 years, that's a third of my life. I see pictures of her friends from school who are married and have kids and think to myself why is it working for them, why do they get to be happy and live a normal life but my marriage is falling apart... I really struggle with that lately, looking at happy couples and asking myself why they deserve that and have that but I don't. What did I do wrong in my life to have to go through this? Big ole pitty party for me today.

I'm back and forth all the time on the weekends about what I should do with my day. Right now I'm thinking should I go to the gym, should I sit on the couch and relax, should I go hangout with friends, should I go to my parents house and help my dad with yard work. I'm all over the place in my head. My house is a mess but I cant get myself to spend a full day cleaning it because that was something my wife and I would do together on the weekends during our good times "i know sounds dumb but now that I look back that was a good memory".

Anyone out there who was in or is in a similar situation as I am what did you do during your free time to get your mind off of the terrible situation?


----------



## Pacey

I think she is focused on herself right now and you need to do the same. I am going through a separation and have come to realize a few things lately. One, my husband is blaming me for his low self esteem, which thinking back he always has. Second, I have given in to his childish ways too long. And last, that I don't want him to come back. The last one is so hard because he wanted this, not me. He says he isn't seeing anyone and I believe him because he has such low self esteem that would be a mistake. I have loved him with all of my heart for 13 years. She is making her life better with or without you. She probably doesn't have time for anyone. So you might as well get that out of your head. But you have to focus on you and prepare yourself to leave or once she is done with school she might be ready to seriously move on. Don't wait to find out. You need to go and do things for yourself now. Maybe things will work out once she is done with school. She might even respect you more for having the guts to leave. Good luck anyway, it sucks no matter which way you look at it.


----------



## breezycello

You have every right to have good and bad days. Being separated for 2 months, I have had many of both as well. I understand your wanting to know what she is doing with her time away from you. I did the same thing and sometimes still do, but less and less when I don't reach out to contact. 

Be strong and try not to text or reach out to her. Stick with the 180, even parts of it are good at this point. It is there to help you heal. I have noticed and you may as well, that when we are not talking to them, we actually hurt less emotionally. You will still think of her often, as I do my spouse. That is ok, and will get better. 

Finding ways to spend my time, not just working, has been hard for me too. I want to do things with friends but don't want it to always be just meeting up and drinking or dinner. Have you tried any meetup.com groups? I have joined but not yet met any yet. Want to do that to meet new people and try new things but makes me nervous, stepping outside my comfort zone.

Try to stay strong and keep busy. Do you have a pet that you can have with you? Do you enjoy music venues where you can go out and just meet people?


----------



## Absurdist

MrPack why do you have to sell your house? Clean it up, yes. And then... redecorate the place. Move the furniture around. Get some female friend to help you. Golly, hang a dang Jackson Pollock painting somewhere.

What are you going to tell her Monday? How about the unvarnished truth. Tell her you still love her. Tell her you still want to be married. But don't compromise your core values in the process and tell her that you can't live in limbo land forever. It's an unhealthy place.

Keep going out with your friends. Keep alcohol consumption to a minimum. Nurse a couple of drinks and that's it. Heck, be a designated driver if need be. Hit the gym and hit it hard. My young friend got into crossfit and it helped him a great deal. You said you enjoyed golf, well... go hit a bucket of balls.... hit ten buckets. Get around people. Don't sit there and stare at the walls of your house. Go volunteer for something. Habitat for Humanity is always looking for help. You not only help someone, get good physical exercise but it gets your mind off things and around people.

I am an INTJ on the Myers Briggs. I like nothing more than laying on the couch and reading another philosophy book. I have to force myself to get out among people. I suspect you are much like me. Get yourself out there. Make yourself do it.

You can do this.

Today I was swimming. That's my passion.  I was talking to a young lady and told her that I knew of a 32 year old unattached guy who has a good job. Her response? He sounds dreamy. Introduce me. Quit selling yourself short MrPack. You have a lot going for you but you don't realize it.


----------



## MrPack

breezycello said:


> You have every right to have good and bad days. Being separated for 2 months, I have had many of both as well. I understand your wanting to know what she is doing with her time away from you. I did the same thing and sometimes still do, but less and less when I don't reach out to contact.
> 
> Be strong and try not to text or reach out to her. Stick with the 180, even parts of it are good at this point. It is there to help you heal. I have noticed and you may as well, that when we are not talking to them, we actually hurt less emotionally. You will still think of her often, as I do my spouse. That is ok, and will get better.
> 
> Finding ways to spend my time, not just working, has been hard for me too. I want to do things with friends but don't want it to always be just meeting up and drinking or dinner. Have you tried any meetup.com groups? I have joined but not yet met any yet. Want to do that to meet new people and try new things but makes me nervous, stepping outside my comfort zone.
> 
> Try to stay strong and keep busy. Do you have a pet that you can have with you? Do you enjoy music venues where you can go out and just meet people?


Thanks for your advice/words. I have thought about meetup groups just haven't looked into it yet. And yes I have a wonderful English Bulldog who has been my saving grace during all of this. Honestly I was just talking to a family friend last night about how crazy it is that dogs know when your feeling down or like crap and she definitely notices and has been my rock these past couple months.


----------



## MrPack

Absurdist said:


> MrPack why do you have to sell your house? Clean it up, yes. And then... redecorate the place. Move the furniture around. Get some female friend to help you. Golly, hang a dang Jackson Pollock painting somewhere.
> 
> What are you going to tell her Monday? How about the unvarnished truth. Tell her you still love her. Tell her you still want to be married. But don't compromise your core values in the process and tell her that you can't live in limbo land forever. It's an unhealthy place.
> 
> Keep going out with your friends. Keep alcohol consumption to a minimum. Nurse a couple of drinks and that's it. Heck, be a designated driver if need be. Hit the gym and hit it hard. My young friend got into crossfit and it helped him a great deal. You said you enjoyed golf, well... go hit a bucket of balls.... hit ten buckets. Get around people. Don't sit there and stare at the walls of your house. Go volunteer for something. Habitat for Humanity is always looking for help. You not only help someone, get good physical exercise but it gets your mind off things and around people.
> 
> I am an INTJ on the Myers Briggs. I like nothing more than laying on the couch and reading another philosophy book. I have to force myself to get out among people. I suspect you are much like me. Get yourself out there. Make yourself do it.
> 
> You can do this.
> 
> Today I was swimming. That's my passion. I was talking to a young lady and told her that I knew of a 32 year old unattached guy who has a good job. Her response? He sounds dreamy. Introduce me. Quit selling yourself short MrPack. You have a lot going for you but you don't realize it.


Again thank you for your words and advice they always help! As for the house we have been talking for a while now about selling it. Especially now its just too much of a financial burden and its also to far of a drive from where I work and friends and family. I want to sell it to save some money and start over fresh. I do have a busy couple weeks coming up. All my buddies are joining me on 4th of July at a big bbq/pool party my parents and their neighbors are having. The neighbors are great people and have kids around my age minus a few years, they will be there as well with their friends. I''m hoping to meet new people during this party. Then the following week I leave to go on vacation with my parents and older sister, one of my buddies might drive down for a couple nights with us so I'm looking forward to that. We'll be in a beach house in Mexico, walk right out the back door and theres the ocean. I CANNOT wait to get there and read, listen to music and just be with people who love me for me and forget about everything else for a week. 

I woke up today feeling better than I did yesterday, we had a bad storm last night so I'm cleaning up my yard, doing laundry and I plan on going to my parents house in a bit to help my dad with yard work. Then were going to grill some steaks and hang out in there pool for a bit. Yea sounds weird I'm excited to hangout with my parents but they are like my best friends outside of a few buddies. Since I've been going through this I spend my Sundays with my parents and I've really grown to appreciate them and our relationship a lot recently. 

As for the gym, I've been going but don't seem to be hitting it as hard as I should. My very best friend used to be a personal trainer so we made plans for me to train with him next week to get a good routine going. I'm pretty excited about that. I've lost 30 lbs during all of this and now I need to bulk up. I'm looking too skinny right now even though I'm finally getting my appetite back. 

I don't know exactly what I'm going to tell her Monday but I know I want to let her know that yes I still love her and if things were to go the right direction for both of us I would reconcile but i'm also telling her that I don't see nor have I heard anything from her to indicate that she wants that. So...basically I'm going to tell her that Im tired of being in this limbo state and I'm ready to move forward for myself. I'm not pulling the divorce trigger yet but I want her to realize that I'm done sitting around waiting when she isn't giving me any hope for positive signs. I haven't heard anything from her since I sent her the text early last week asking about when we can talk. Lately that's how it is, it's me that has to initiate communication and that's just not fair. I sent her a text an hour ago asking if we are still on for tomorrow and she hasn't replied yet. 

Anyway thanks again, I'll keep you all posted as things progress today and certainly tomorrow after our talk.


----------



## LongWalk

Don't tell her that you love her. She does not value those declarations. If she should say it to you, what will you say?


----------



## helolover

Her actions say everything. This story has played out countless times on TAM - regardless of the players. We know her. We know OP too.


----------



## MrPack

What does "OP" stand for?


----------



## Wolf9

Don't assume that she will move to less fortunate countries based on altruistic behavior or will never have children.

She may meet someone new & may or may have children, biology (selfish genes) plays important role in that.

If despite of being together for 11 years, she wasn't ready for having them with you means it wasn't meant to be. You need to let it go.

Using coping mechanics like she will do certain things (like moving to other county or will never have children) can be counter productive, Prepare for the worst & gradually try to reach the level where you are detached enough that it won't matter how her life pan out.


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## Absurdist

LongWalk said:


> Don't tell her that you love her. She does not value those declarations. If she should say it to you, what will you say?


Why do you say that Longwalk? He does love her. To say otherwise is dishonest. To say that he's willing to accept the current state of the marriage as it stands now is also dishonest.

MrPack deserves the truth from her one way or the other. The truth will ultimately set him free and he can begin to heal. I think that's all he wants... the truth.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chaparral

Absurdist said:


> Why do you say that Longwalk? He does love her. To say otherwise is dishonest. To say that he's willing to accept the current state of the marriage as it stands now is also dishonest.
> 
> MrPack deserves the truth from her one way or the other. The truth will ultimately set him free and he can begin to heal. I think that's all he wants... the truth.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I will be totally shocked if she ever gives him the truth. Unless she just mans up and admits she wants a divorce


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## LongWalk

Non verbal communication is often more important than words.

"The time has come," the Walrus said,
"To talk of many things:
Of shoes--and ships--and sealing-wax--
Of cabbages--and kings--
And why the sea is boiling hot--
And whether pigs have wings."

(and the talk went until the end)

"O Oysters," said the Carpenter,
"You've had a pleasant run!
Shall we be trotting home again?'
But answer came there none--
And this was scarcely odd, because
They'd eaten every one.

And the moral of the story is that what the Walrus and Carpenter did was more important than what they said. His wife knows how he feels. Repeating it demeans him.

Her love is not always qualified. She loves him but wants to give him up. Observe what she does not what she says.


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## Absurdist

Good Luck today MrPack. Follow your heart.... and your head.


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## MrPack

Well I just got off the biggest emotional rollercoaster in town. 

My wife just left our house. There was anger, crying and a little bit of laughing. I'm going to try and not make this post too long. The conversation started out with small talk about what each other has been up to. Then I started asking the real questions. I told her that I'm tired of living in this limbo state. I asked her to be completely honest about where she stands with wanting kids in the future and if she is 100% wanting to leave the country to work abroad after med school. She said she ISNT 100% sure about kids and she ISNT 100% sure if she wants to leave after school to work abroad. I then brought up the fact that I'm not happy right now and that I'm to the point where I feel like we need to make a decision in the near future regarding divorce or trying to work on our marriage. She cried...this was really the first time I've said the divorce word to her. She said again that she still loves me and I told her that I still love her. But we both agreed that the past couple years haven't been good. Neither of us have been very happy.

I talked about how she is the one who left, she is the one who turned down marriage counselling, she is the one who took her ring off and wanted to live like she was single and didn't have ties to anyone. She told me how she has been doing great in school but outside of school she is crumbling like I have BUT she knows how to hide it better than I do. We talked about how she is too quick to hide her true feelings and how that affected our relationship and how it affects other relationships she has with friends and family. She say's she is working on that. I then asked her flat out..."what do you want to do". She said like I expected "I really don't know". All the while tears are rolling down her cheeks. I stayed strong and said again that I cannot keep living like this I need to start moving forward with my life whether that is with her or without her (but not in those exact words). That's when I think it really sank in...she looked up and said okay I want to try marriage counselling. I asked her why. She said because if we end up getting divorced she would regret it for the rest of her life knowing that I wanted to try counselling and she didn't. I then asked her what she would say if the counsellor asked her if she wanted to reconcile and she said her answer would be "I don't know, it depends on a lot of things". I accepted that answer and was ready to move on but then she asked me the same thing. I mustered up the courage and said "I don't know if I want to reconcile, it would take a lot of changes and work for that to happen but I do know that I have it in me to give it this one last shot even if it is only a few sessions with a counsellor". She looked at me like I was a different person. It was like me being brutally honest with her right then made her look at me different but in a good way. 

So the conversation ended with me calling the counsellor tomorrow and letting my wife know what his schedule looks like. She then packed up a small bag of clothes because she starts her new office job at the school tomorrow and needed work clothes. I am leaving out a lot of our 2 hour long conversation but I think I've captured all the big things. After she left I don't feel happy or sad, I'm sort of relieved because I was honest with her and showed finally that I'm done waiting around and I think she finally see's that. I know that for us to truly reconcile it will take A LOT of work and change on both ends but I feel good about how strong I was. Before she left she started crying a little again and said it was because she wanted so bad to choose the easy route and just stay home and get back into living our life but she just cant get herself to do that. A month ago I would have dropped to my knees begging her to stay but I'm stronger now and I know just her coming home is not the answer if there even is one for us. 

Overall I think she has more thinking to do than I, she needs to truly grasp reality with what she sees as these fantasy options for her future. I'm not putting this all on her but even she admitted tonight that she is the one who changed since we got married not me. I dunno...I guess we have one more tiny tiny glimmer of hope but I'm not all that positive this marriage counselling will really get us back on track. I'm just respecting that fact that she brought this up and wants to do it maybe it shows me that this marriage did mean something to her even if it doesn't work out in the end.


----------



## Chaparral

Much better than I expected. Good luck

Asap. MARIED MAN SEX LIFE PRIMER (its not a sex manual lol)

HIS NEEDS HER NEEDS

LOVE BUSTERS

Read em and share the last two with your wife. MMSLP is only for guys. Do this quickly.

Prayers brother!


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## Absurdist

Kudos MrPack. You are making amazing progress as a man. Go back and read your very first post on TAM and compare it with today. Night and day difference. Kudos to MrsPack for a decent amount of honesty. She's still in her head but the shell is beginning to crack a bit.

You still have some rough roads to travel but I have no doubt you will emerge as a tougher and wiser individual no matter the ultimate outcome.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Vulcan2013

Way to be strong! You were much more attractive to her. But she didn't stay even though school is out.


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## MrPack

Got a hold of my counsellor this morning unfortunately he leaves for vacation in a couple days and wont be able to see us for over 3 weeks. I feel like I'm okay waiting that long but do you guys think thats too long to wait?


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## Pluto2

Oosh, that's a long time, but if you feel strong and keep working on you, it should be ok. You've had your peace with W. I'd probably keep up the 180, don't initiate communication. Stay strong Mr.P


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## MrPack

Pluto2 said:


> Oosh, that's a long time, but if you feel strong and keep working on you, it should be ok. You've had your peace with W. I'd probably keep up the 180, don't initiate communication. Stay strong Mr.P


Thank you, my thought was that yea it is a while to have to wait 3 weeks but also I'm hoping that gives us both plenty of time to really think about what we want and how we want to approach these counselling sessions. 

In my head I k now that after spending a third of my life with this women I can certainly wait 3 more short weeks. I know I do have alot of thinking to do regarding what I WANT to see change IF we were to reconcile. I'm also sort of happy that I'll get to spend a few days at the beach next week while im on vacation really reflecting on my life and our marriage before we go to our first session.


----------



## Absurdist

MrPack said:


> Thank you, my thought was that yea it is a while to have to wait 3 weeks but also I'm hoping that gives us both plenty of time to really think about what we want and how we want to approach these counselling sessions.
> 
> In my head I k now that after spending a third of my life with this women I can certainly wait 3 more short weeks. I know I do have alot of thinking to do regarding what I WANT to see change IF we were to reconcile. I'm also sort of happy that I'll get to spend a few days at the beach next week while im on vacation really reflecting on my life and our marriage before we go to our first session.


Questions 

Do you have confidence in your counselor?

Would MrsPack see him or her as your counselor rather than our counselor? i.e. on your team rather than our team.

If she was here, what would MrsPack say that MrPack needs to change?

What do you say that she needs to change? How about yourself? What do you think you need to change about yourself?

I'm not asking for specifics just some basic life truths.

Enjoy a contemplative time in the Mexican sun.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chaparral

Strike while the iron is hot. Why give her a chance to change her mind. How long before she goes back to school?


----------



## MrPack

Bugged and Chaparral,
I totally understand your concern about me waiting 3 weeks to see the marraige counselor. But She just started her break from school for two weeks, this week she is working 9am-9pm between the office job and shadowing at a doctors office. Next week both of us will be out of town. Schedule wise I dont see how it will work for us to get into a counselor sooner unfortunately. I'm also hopping that since she is off school for two weeks that she'll finally be able to sit back and really think about our marriage and our separation. She hasnt done much of that as of late because she's been keeping herself extra busy. She fully admitted to me last night that she was purposely keeping herself extra busy during our separation because it was too hard for her to really sit back and think about it. 

What I'm trying to get at is...
A.) unfortunately we cant come up with a mutual time to meet with the counselor because of conflicting schedules.
B.) I feel I could use these couple weeks to really process this last conversation we had and the fact that she wants to even try marriage counseling. I want to use the time from now until our appointment to really think about what I want to see change and what I can do to help make things work should it go that route.

But then again I understand what your saying regarding getting into a counselor sooner whlie its fresh in our heads. I dont know, I'm torn right now. I've only seen this guy once so I would hardly say he's on my side hopefully he wont choose any sides thats not what his job is in my opinion.


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## Absurdist

MrPack when you get a chance Google the phrase Abilene Paradox. Read it, understand it and apply it to your situation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MrPack

Absurdist said:


> MrPack when you get a chance Google the phrase Abilene Paradox. Read it, understand it and apply it to your situation.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thank you, I read what the phrase meant according to wikipedia. HOw would you say it ties to my situation? I know it does but I'm still trying to bridge the two...


----------



## Absurdist

MrPack said:


> Thank you, I read what the phrase meant according to wikipedia. HOw would you say it ties to my situation? I know it does but I'm still trying to bridge the two...


MrPack - in an Abilene Paradox a person takes an action based on what _he thinks the other person wants_ but in reality the other person doesn't want that at all.

For instance, you think your wife wants a divorce so you base your decision what you think she wants. She doesn't want that at all but believes you want it so she agrees. You end up divorced but neither of you want it in the first place. Thus the paradox.

All of this could be avoided by honest communication of what each of you want.


----------



## Pluto2

Well, to pipe in on the kid issue. I went to college and work as a professional and when I married I had no intention of having kids. My then H was fully on board with that decision. I did change my mind and had two health kids at the age of 38 and 41. So anecdotally, I support what Bugged is saying.

However, I never moved out and took off my ring and wanted to live the single life. 

FWIW, I don't think the Abilene Paradox is applicable here. Instead, I read this as his wife not having the strength to say she's done with the marriage. 

When a person's words and actions seem to conflict-look at her actions.


----------



## farsidejunky

Pluto2 said:


> FWIW, I don't think the Abilene Paradox is applicable here. Instead, I read this as his wife not having the strength to say she's done with the marriage.
> 
> When a person's words and actions seem to conflict-look at her actions.


This is my read on it too.


----------



## LongWalk

The Abilene Paradox could come into play without being absolutely true or false. People close doors because of poor communication. However, Mr Pack has been consistently loving.

By spelling out the consequences of separation and being direct and plain in speech Mr Pack has gotten further along.

Three weeks could be a long or short time.

Mr Pack,

One alternatively is to call her up and tell her that while you are waiting for MC she should come home and sleep in her bed.

If she doesn't want to try to live as man and wife, what is the MC for?


----------



## MrPack

LongWalk said:


> The Abilene Paradox could come into play without being absolutely true or false. People close doors because of poor communication. However, Mr Pack has been consistently loving.
> 
> By spelling out the consequences of separation and being direct and plain in speech Mr Pack has gotten further along.
> 
> Three weeks could be a long or short time.
> 
> Mr Pack,
> 
> One alternatively is to call her up and tell her that while you are waiting for MC she should come home and sleep in her bed.
> 
> If she doesn't want to try to live as man and wife, what is the MC for?


I've thought about this. asking her to come home since we decided to do MC...just don't know yet... I have my own reservations.


----------



## MrPack

Something I've been thinking about. On Saturday (4th of July) my parents and their neighbors are having a combined bbq/pool party about 8 of my friends are coming including significant others of my buddies. My parents neighbors have a daughter who is about 5 years my younger we met a couple weeks ago and became friends on facebook. Not saying anything at all is going on or would happen but how should I treat that pool party should she show interest in me? Especially since my W and I just decided to try MC? 

My conundrum is that yea we are going to try MC but aside from that I haven't felt or seen any other positive signs from her that she wants to come home and work on things hence the reason I haven't asked her to come home.


----------



## farsidejunky

You remain cordial. If she is forward, you tell her that even though it is rocky and on its last leg you are still married.

If she is worth it, she will understand. If she does not understand, run.


----------



## Absurdist

MrPack said:


> Something I've been thinking about. On Saturday (4th of July) my parents and their neighbors are having a combined bbq/pool party about 8 of my friends are coming including significant others of my buddies. My parents neighbors have a daughter who is about 5 years my younger we met a couple weeks ago and became friends on facebook. Not saying anything at all is going on or would happen but how should I treat that pool party should she show interest in me? Especially since my W and I just decided to try MC?
> 
> My conundrum is that yea we are going to try MC but aside from that I haven't felt or seen any other positive signs from her that she wants to come home and work on things hence the reason I haven't asked her to come home.


Slippery slope MrPack.

How do you think you should act?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Pluto2

MrPack said:


> Something I've been thinking about. On Saturday (4th of July) my parents and their neighbors are having a combined bbq/pool party about 8 of my friends are coming including significant others of my buddies. My parents neighbors have a daughter who is about 5 years my younger we met a couple weeks ago and became friends on facebook. Not saying anything at all is going on or would happen but how should I treat that pool party should she show interest in me? Especially since my W and I just decided to try MC?
> 
> My conundrum is that yea we are going to try MC but aside from that I haven't felt or seen any other positive signs from her that she wants to come home and work on things hence the reason I haven't asked her to come home.


You know what you should do. If you didn't, you never would have been in such pain because of your wife's actions.

I'll give you the same advice I give my kids: Do not start your next relationship until you've finished the first.


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## Chaparral

Why not invite your wife to the party?


----------



## MrPack

I thought about this last night. I cant see myself getting involved with anyone right now. I'm not going to lie it feels good to have a female paying attention to me right now but after sleeping on it I know I'm not ready to move on like that especially since there seems to be a very tiny glimmer with my W. If this girl or anyone else makes a pass at me I will be perfectly honest and just say I'm still married, yes things are complicated right now but I'm not in the position to start anything new. 

I feel guilty for even making that post last night and even having these thoughts but my mind is all over the place right now. I'll stay strong and have fun with friends and family and not even worry about any other women.


----------



## MrPack

Chaparral said:


> Why not invite your wife to the party?


Because we arent at that stage yet. I still have strong feelings towards my wife and she has indicated that she still has "some" feelings towards me. If she isnt willing to come home or make any other changes yet other than trying MC I dont want to invite her and add more pressure. 

Also, like I touched on earlier she is on her break from school. She fully admitted that she is just now able to sit back and really think about our marriage and issues. I want her to be on her own or with her girlfriends and really think about everything for once instead of pushing it aside like she has been doing.

She told me she plans on spending time with her old girlfriends this weekend all of whom she has been friends with since she was a kid. They are good people all married or have serious relationships. Maybe they'll put things into perspective for her.


----------



## Pluto2

Bugged, I continue to think your advice promotes Mr. P. admitted co-dependence. There's no possible way they can have a healthy marriage until that cycle is broken. You don't act out of fear over what your spouse may or may not do. You act for what is best for you.


----------



## LongWalk

> Because we arent at that stage yet. I still have strong feelings towards my wife and she has indicated that she still has "some" feelings towards me. If she isnt willing to come home or make any other changes yet other than trying MC I dont want to invite her and add more pressure.


The separation is making things easier for you. Raising divorce caused her to hesitate in theory. But if she really cared when she was lonely and horny, she would come over, open the door without knocking and get in bed without PJ bottoms. She is not interested, except in the co-dependent resource that she is losing.



> Also, like I touched on earlier she is on her break from school. She fully admitted that she is just now able to sit back and really think about our marriage and issues. I want her to be on her own or with her girlfriends and really think about everything for once instead of pushing it aside like she has been doing.
> 
> She told me she plans on spending time with her old girlfriends this weekend all of whom she has been friends with since she was a kid. They are good people all married or have serious relationships. Maybe they'll put things into perspective for her.


She tells you that she is spending time with persons who take her out of the dating market. But if she is thinking things over it is also possible she is having coffee with OM.


----------



## Tron

You've been separated for almost 2 months. And she isn't spending this time off with you.

That alone speaks volumes.


----------



## LongWalk

People sometimes know what they want. Coffee is important for certain discussions. For a first date coffee is like a job interview for potential partners. When a couple is splitting up coffee is for negotiations. Sex might not be good if they did not redefine their relationship.

No sex. No sharing space equals the death of the relationship.

OP is already moving away, too.


----------



## MrPack

Tron said:


> You've been separated for almost 2 months. And she isn't spending this time off with you.
> 
> That alone speaks volumes.


She worked all week this week 9am to 9pm. She has to get a certain amount of shadow hours at different doctors offices during this week. So...between my work schedule and hers there was hardly time for us to even have our talk Monday night. Next week is her final week off, I'll be on vacation and she will also be out of town with her family. 

I'm not expert but being separated for 2 months doesn't seem too extreme compared to other stories I've heard and read on TAM. 

We are communicating more this week since our talk, she actually has initiated the contact for once. Just because this is happening I'm not going to jump into her arms and drag/beg her to come home. We both talked about how much needs to change before we even cross the idea of her coming home. Why would she just throw up her arms after all this and say screw it I'm coming home or lets spend 4th of july together when she knows very well we have a lot of work to do? 

I am not putting myself in the position I was in 2 months ago ever again. My biggest fear about her coming home is being in this same spot 3 years from now when she finishes school. LIke I keep saying I'm still figuring out what exactly what I want and what exactly I think needs to change to make this work. Maybe I'm going at this all wrong but I'm finally thinking about myself and my own happiness, I don't want to get back to that dark place I was in 2 months ago. We've been together for a total of almost 11 years, what is 2 months??? nothing... This marriage means to much to me to cycle myself back into our twisted negative web of a marriage without really working on our issues.


----------



## Tron

I believe your thoughts on this are getting healthier by the day MrPack.

What I am really trying to say is that I don't hold out much hope for this M. Her working every day these 2 weeks from 9 am to 9 pm just seems to me to be more of the same. If she didn't have time for you before, during the school year, and she isn't making time for you now during her break, because of her work schedule, what little time she makes to hang out with her friends sounds like lip service. 

And frankly, if you guys stay together, this is what you have to look forward to for at least 3 more years. 

You can do so much better than unloved, deprioritized, no children, and lofty future goals that don't include you.



MrPack said:


> She worked all week this week 9am to 9pm. She has to get a certain amount of shadow hours at different doctors offices during this week. So...between my work schedule and hers there was hardly time for us to even have our talk Monday night. Next week is her final week off, I'll be on vacation and she will also be out of town with her family.
> 
> I'm not expert but being separated for 2 months doesn't seem too extreme compared to other stories I've heard and read on TAM.
> 
> We are communicating more this week since our talk, she actually has initiated the contact for once. Just because this is happening I'm not going to jump into her arms and drag/beg her to come home. We both talked about how much needs to change before we even cross the idea of her coming home. Why would she just throw up her arms after all this and say screw it I'm coming home or lets spend 4th of july together when she knows very well we have a lot of work to do?
> 
> I am not putting myself in the position I was in 2 months ago ever again. My biggest fear about her coming home is being in this same spot 3 years from now when she finishes school. LIke I keep saying I'm still figuring out what exactly what I want and what exactly I think needs to change to make this work. Maybe I'm going at this all wrong but I'm finally thinking about myself and my own happiness, I don't want to get back to that dark place I was in 2 months ago. We've been together for a total of almost 11 years, what is 2 months??? nothing... This marriage means to much to me to cycle myself back into our twisted negative web of a marriage without really working on our issues.


----------



## WorkingWife

MrPack said:


> ...Aside from that while talking to my wife today she said it again that she is not seeing anyone right now and then proceeded to say but we are separated and that she consideres that as being somewhat single. She says to me that if I go on dates or meet another women that she doesnt want to know about it but I dont feel the same way...



I would tell her that a separation is not a divorce. It is an opportunity to reevaluate the marriage, but the marriage vows still apply. It is absolutely, 100% not okay for either of you to date or see anyone else during this separation. If she wants to date other people, she needs to come clean and you will file for divorce. Not acceptable.

ETA: No matter what she says, no woman will respect a man who lets her date other men.


----------



## MrPack

WorkingWife said:


> I would tell her that a separation is not a divorce. It is an opportunity to reevaluate the marriage, but the marriage vows still apply. It is absolutely, 100% not okay for either of you to date or see anyone else during this separation. If she wants to date other people, she needs to come clean and you will file for divorce. Not acceptable.
> 
> ETA: No matter what she says, no woman will respect a man who lets her date other men.


Since I posted what you quoted above I've become a lot stronger. I've told her recently that if she has been dating or seeing anyone during our separation it would not be acceptable and that is means for divorce. So if I do find out that she is or has dated especially if things got physical I'd be done. We'll see where this goes with the MC she finally wants to do. I don't have a whole lot of hope but all I can do is stay positive and keep moving forward for myself and my happiness. I do have a glimmer of hope but its a very small one.


----------



## MrPack

I just wanted to take a second to thank each and every person who has given advice or comments on my thread good or bad. I had a conversation with my best friend yesterday and he told me how amazed he is about how different and strong I've become compared to when this all started. I talked to my parents this morning and they basically said the same thing. 

I really think a lot of my strength and growth during this time has stemmed from you all here on TAM. Yes sometimes I don't always like what I read but you all have had a big role in my thought process and just giving me hope that no matter what the outcome I will be okay. I don't wish my situation on anyone but it also has been a great deal of help reading all your stories and just knowing that I'm not alone in this. 

So again, thank you all so much...may sound weird but I don't know where I would be at this point had I not found TAM.


----------



## Absurdist

How was the bbq/pool party MrPack? Any fireworks with the 26 year old neighbor?


----------



## Chaparral

I'm not familiar with the type of doctoring career she is pursuing. What is your honest take on it. I'm sure you have researched it. Actually, I don't think I've ever heard of it. Can you support this choice?


----------



## LongWalk

You might read this thread http://talkaboutmarriage.com/going-through-divorce-separation/70118-my-story-separated.html


----------



## MrPack

I got myself in a terrible situation last night. Drank way to much, my tolerance seems to have gone down since my college years. This is not an excuse by any means but alcohol certainly played a roll in putting myself in the position last night. 

Towards the end of the party the neighbor girl kissed me, I'm not going to lie and say I didn't kiss back at all but it lasted two seconds and I stopped her and told her that I am going through a lot right now and cannot be doing this. Yes she initiated the kiss but I'm the idiot who allowed it to happen. I should have never drank that much and should have never paid attention to her knowing that she had already acted like she had a thing for me. 

Nothing inside of me wants any type of relationship with this girl and the stupid kiss made me realize that even if I file for divorce next week or tomorrow it doesn't matter I am no where near ready to date. I know I'm going to get a lot of heat on here especially considering that my wife and I decided to try MC in a couple weeks before we go the divorce route. But My wife continues to avoid me, takes forever to even respond to my text messages and just gives me short responses. She still wants to go on without us wearing our rings, she still seems as if she is happy on her own right now. I'm very conflicted and confused. I think the stupid kiss from last night has really made me think about why my wife even wants to try MC. I guess part of me thought that after she said that she wanted to try MC she would start coming around or contacting me more, that didn't happen. She went to the lake this weekend and wouldn't even tell me who she was with. She replied to my text after about 3 hours and just said "went with some friends". 

Here's another wrench to throw into the mix that I've been struggling with and was unsure about posting it on my thread. I'm still checking phone records for my wifes cell phone. She has been texting a guy pretty much every single day all times of the day and night. But... I haven't seen 1 phone call between them on the phone records only text messages. I found the guy on facebook, never heard of him, I think he looks like he is not in the same "league" as my wife but there still seems to be something going on.

Having said that do you think my subconscious last night was making me seem "single" because I don't know what my wife is up too and I'm seeing bad signs on her phone records? Yes the girl initiated the kiss but I really feel like I could have avoided that situation and my guilt is out of this world today. I feel like a scum bag. Ive been sitting here playing the victim roll this whole time then I put my self in a position like that last night knowing very well that the neighbor girl had been acting like she had a thing for me. 

Two HUGE steps back and its killing me.


----------



## MrPack

Bugged you are correct this is a very big mess. I leave in two days for vacation with my family. It couldn't come at a better time. I have a lot of thinking to do.


----------



## honcho

MrPack said:


> I got myself in a terrible situation last night. Drank way to much, my tolerance seems to have gone down since my college years. This is not an excuse by any means but alcohol certainly played a roll in putting myself in the position last night.
> 
> Towards the end of the party the neighbor girl kissed me, I'm not going to lie and say I didn't kiss back at all but it lasted two seconds and I stopped her and told her that I am going through a lot right now and cannot be doing this. Yes she initiated the kiss but I'm the idiot who allowed it to happen. I should have never drank that much and should have never paid attention to her knowing that she had already acted like she had a thing for me.
> 
> Nothing inside of me wants any type of relationship with this girl and the stupid kiss made me realize that even if I file for divorce next week or tomorrow it doesn't matter I am no where near ready to date. I know I'm going to get a lot of heat on here especially considering that my wife and I decided to try MC in a couple weeks before we go the divorce route. But My wife continues to avoid me, takes forever to even respond to my text messages and just gives me short responses. She still wants to go on without us wearing our rings, she still seems as if she is happy on her own right now. I'm very conflicted and confused. I think the stupid kiss from last night has really made me think about why my wife even wants to try MC. I guess part of me thought that after she said that she wanted to try MC she would start coming around or contacting me more, that didn't happen. She went to the lake this weekend and wouldn't even tell me who she was with. She replied to my text after about 3 hours and just said "went with some friends".
> 
> Here's another wrench to throw into the mix that I've been struggling with and was unsure about posting it on my thread. I'm still checking phone records for my wifes cell phone. She has been texting a guy pretty much every single day all times of the day and night. But... I haven't seen 1 phone call between them on the phone records only text messages. I found the guy on facebook, never heard of him, I think he looks like he is not in the same "league" as my wife but there still seems to be something going on.
> 
> Having said that do you think my subconscious last night was making me seem "single" because I don't know what my wife is up too and I'm seeing bad signs on her phone records? Yes the girl initiated the kiss but I really feel like I could have avoided that situation and my guilt is out of this world today. I feel like a scum bag. Ive been sitting here playing the victim roll this whole time then I put my self in a position like that last night knowing very well that the neighbor girl had been acting like she had a thing for me.
> 
> Two HUGE steps back and its killing me.


Your wife agreed to MC to apease you, not because she wanted to. Her path hasn't changed and that is to explore life without you. She bought time with saying she would go, she never gave you any real sign of a willingness to explore reconciliation. 

Lay off the booze, it is a depressant and just leads to dumb situations. You aren't ready for any type of relationship right now either even if you wanted to pursue it. 

You seem to be fixated on the two issues of her possible career choice and kids. I don't think either are the full reason your spouse left. They play a part but not the full answer. What weakness did you have in the marriage, what do you feel you could have done better?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Absurdist

honcho said:


> Your wife agreed to MC to apease you, not because she wanted to. Her path hasn't changed and that is to explore life without you. She bought time with saying she would go, she never gave you any real sign of a willingness to explore reconciliation.
> 
> Lay off the booze, it is a depressant and just leads to dumb situations. You aren't ready for any type of relationship right now either even if you wanted to pursue it.
> 
> You seem to be fixated on the two issues of her possible career choice and kids. I don't think either are the full reason your spouse left. They play a part but not the full answer. What weakness did you have in the marriage, what do you feel you could have done better?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Read this again MrPack. Honcho is on the money.

As stated several posts back, your wife may want to pull the plug but doesn't have the guts to do so. She wants you to wear the black hat and force you to make the decision. Sucks doesn't it? A stinking Hobson's choice.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MrPack

Your both saying exactly what I've been thinking in recent days. I know one of my weaknesses during our marriage was me settling and I guess you can say being the boring spouse whereas she is always looking for bigger and better things. I will be journaling more this week when I'm on vacation. I'm hoping a lot more will come to the surface in my mind and heart. This sucks but I know I'm strong enough to get through but only if I stay true and honest with myself and make better decisions like laying off the booze.


----------



## Tron

MrPack said:


> Here's another wrench to throw into the mix that I've been struggling with and was unsure about posting it on my thread. I'm still checking phone records for my wifes cell phone. She has been texting a guy pretty much every single day all times of the day and night. But... I haven't seen 1 phone call between them on the phone records only text messages. I found the guy on facebook, never heard of him, I think he looks like he is not in the same "league" as my wife but there still seems to be something going on.





Bugged said:


> I would ask your wife about this guy...tell her you were checking the phone bills because you think SHE should pay for it and you noticed all those texts to that number...I don't know your wife..but even if she gets angry and resents you it's something you should talk about...at this point things are really messed up...


If you can investigate and get the info you need without confronting, that would be ideal. 

Can you line up a PI to follow her (or him) for a couple of days while you are gone?

Do you have access to her phone, any backups or her iCloud?

If you confront without any evidence but a name, she can lie and gaslight you. It would be best to know what's going on before you confront.

You may want to seek some help on the CWI forum. It doesn't look good.


----------



## LongWalk

> I got myself in a terrible situation last night. Drank way to much, my tolerance seems to have gone down since my college years. This is not an excuse by any means but alcohol certainly played a roll in putting myself in the position last night.
> 
> Towards the end of the party the neighbor girl kissed me, I'm not going to lie and say I didn't kiss back at all but it lasted two seconds and I stopped her and told her that I am going through a lot right now and cannot be doing this. Yes she initiated the kiss but I'm the idiot who allowed it to happen. I should have never drank that much and should have never paid attention to her knowing that she had already acted like she had a thing for me.


Your WAW/WW wife would probably be filled with a conflicted mixture of happiness and jealousy if she were to learn this. She wants you to cheat so that she is not the bad guy. She would also be jealous but you cannot know because her desire for you may be completely dead.



> She went to the lake this weekend and wouldn't even tell me who she was with. She replied to my text after about 3 hours and just said "went with some friends".


If another man is having sex with her, your importance diminishes to nothing but emotional and financial support.



> Here's another wrench to throw into the mix that I've been struggling with and was unsure about posting it on my thread. I'm still checking phone records for my wifes cell phone. She has been texting a guy pretty much every single day all times of the day and night. But... I haven't seen 1 phone call between them on the phone records only text messages. I found the guy on facebook, never heard of him, I think he looks like he is not in the same "league" as my wife but there still seems to be something going on.


Unsure about revealing it because you feared people would say "told you so"? It's no big deal to strangers on the Internet. In some sense I would say that if she is cheating it makes her more ordinary. If she were just a WAW, the explanations could be much more complex. She could be leaving you because of an unhealthy psychological state. She might be facing her problems or running away from them.

With an affair, she is creating more problems because she is damaging her integrity.


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## MrPack

Bugged said:


> Or maybe, she was the only one who had the guts to act on the situation...MrPack I'm not trying to hurt you but..you admitted that in the past years you were fantasizing about being with someone else...after 6 weeks you meet a pretty girl, string her along, get drunk and even kiss her...
> MrsPack might be shagging someone else...or she might not...what's for sure for now is that MrPack has been unfaithful...
> 
> Hire a PI..if she's having an affair won't take long to find out...but i mean..after what you' ve done...even if she has an EA or a PA..does it still matter?I mean...:nerd::nerd:i dunno...
> Good luck..you sure going to need it..


Bugged I get what your saying but I dont feel comfortable with the statement that "I strung this girl along and I kissed HER". I hadnt had any communication wtih this girl aside from a hello or small talk when I would see her if I happened to be at my folks house. 

SHE kissed me. Yes I knew going into the party that she had a crush on me or whatever...maybe knowing that I should have just changed my plans and not gone over there. I obviously should not have drank so much thats on me 100%. That is really something I'm goign to start working on. 

Anyway its a terrible situation then the incident from the other night made it even worse. 

As for my wife having the guts to act on our situation when she decided to leave. Yea that took guts. She recently told me that she has been feeling unhappy for 2+ years and finally hit her breaking point. But since she left she hasnt given me any signs of wanting to reconcile. She's made weird comments quite often regarding that the state we are in is basically like "we are living as single people". Now I'm to the point where i think she doesnt have the time nor the energy to file for divorce and is ultimately waiting for me to do it. 

I'm sure majority of the people reading my thread think that MC is pointless but I'm still going. I will regret it if I do not go especially since I'm the one who was wanting it for so long. But I'm also not getting my hopes up.


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## phillybeffandswiss

I knew something was missing and thought you found out some type of infidelity. I wondered why you suddenly brought up the "girl next door" crush angle. At the time, it made absolutely no sense.

Yes, you cheated and this Quote changes nothing.


MrPack said:


> Here's another wrench to throw into the mix that I've been struggling with and was unsure about posting it on my thread. I'm still checking phone records for my wifes cell phone. She has been texting a guy pretty much every single day all times of the day and night. But... I haven't seen 1 phone call between them on the phone records only text messages. I found the guy on facebook, never heard of him, I think he looks like he is not in the same "league" as my wife but there still seems to be something going on.



See, this is why you have to give details. If you would have mentioned this small FACT, people would have given you very pointed advice to avoid the hypocrisy you find yourself in now.


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## LongWalk

Mr Pack, your wife stated that she didn't mind if you dated. Why? Because she wanted to do it herself. So she has succeeded, for if you go to MC now and discuss cheating, you'll have to come clean if you want to be honest.

Have you sabotaged the prospects of reconciliation? I don't think so because your wife has no desire or intention of staying with you. She merely dislikes the idea of becoming a person whose moral character disappoints her.

MC generally has poor results when one spouse is cheating. As long as your wife is texting some guy, she is not going take MC very seriously.

When a man is wooing a woman if she feels that his pursuit is desperate, all the oil runs out of the transmission. Can't go another inch.


----------



## MrPack

So even though from the start my wife said it was "okay" to see other people during our separation I know what happened with me and the neighbor girl was wrong. But now it's all making sense to me that my W made that simple comment...why? I think there is something going on with the guy she's texting. I also believe that and agree that I am a total hypocrite now. I cannot predict what comes of us trying MC but more and more signs/memories/past comments from my wife are ringing bells in my head that she is only doing MC to make her self feel better about leaving and in my opinion wanting a divorce but too scared to pull the trigger. I could be wrong of course but its not looking like it.


----------



## helolover

Set yourself free, Pack. 

File. 

This ride can be over soon. It's okay to be the "bad guy." Who cares what other people think. You are in charge of your life. 

There is good life after divorce. I promise you.


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## Absurdist

MrPack you're getting some tough love here. Our favorite coder MsBugged may be in your face but she's right in most respects.

Ponder and ponder hard in Mexico. And stay away from Al K. Hall. He's a friend to no one when emotions are raw.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## phillybeffandswiss

MrPack said:


> But now it's all making sense to me that my W made that simple comment...why? I think there is something going on with the guy she's texting. .


Out of curiosity, how long ago did the texts begin? No, it won't absolve you of your poor choice, nor does it prove she was cheating, but it may explain her indifference and the initial comments about dating during separation.


----------



## Absurdist

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Out of curiosity, how long ago did the texts begin? No, it won't absolve you of your poor choice, nor does it prove she was cheating, but it may explain her indifference and the initial comments about dating during separation.


It is my understanding that the discovery of the texts is a very recent event. There were no such texts prior to separation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Openminded

You told your wife that physical contact was a deal-breaker, right? Then you need to tell her in MC what you did. Which, BTW, was totally predictable considering what you had posted about the neighbor girl before the party. Ever consider you drank that much just so you'd have an excuse in case "something" happened -- so you could blame it on alcohol instead? 

Yeah, you cheated. Tell her.


----------



## MrPack

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Out of curiosity, how long ago did the texts begin? No, it won't absolve you of your poor choice, nor does it prove she was cheating, but it may explain her indifference and the initial comments about dating during separation.



The texts seemed to have started at least 5 weeks ago, I also looked again last night and went back a couple weeks....they've been sending picture messages to eachother. That to me does not look good...


----------



## LongWalk

In short, she was involved with this guy at about the time she requested separation. Okay, I don't remember the time line but you started in May. So if she started flirting with him it could have been after the separation. 

The truism is that monkeys hold on to the branches they swing on. Makes sense. Why would a woman leave security for nothing in particular. It is only the marriage contract created by society that transforms the "betrayed" spouse's indignation into some ethical issue.


----------



## farsidejunky

Dollars to doughnuts that this guy has some tie to the mission work.


----------



## MrPack

farsidejunky said:


> Dollars to doughnuts that this guy has some tie to the mission work.


I highly doubt that, I've looked through his facebook page and there is nothing on there that indicates he is involved in any mission or or that he has any ties to her medical school. Say's he's a bartender/server and a few years younger than her.


----------



## Arendt

So this is a really long thread and I only read about 7 pages into it because I am short on time nowadays (Got a great job as a full time professor in a major university!).

Mr Pack: I was your wife at one point to some degree. I was a PhD student. I spent all of my time working to get that done. It was so all consuming that it destroyed my marriage. It was nearly impossible for me to snap out of the mindset I was in. The only thing I could do was sit and read and write...all else was a distraction. My career came first. The only thing that snapped me out of it was when my ex-wife walked away. But by then it was too late. I tried for almost a year and half to get her back, but nothing. Her reactions were similar to your wife. She became very absorbed in her own career ironically, saying she wanted to be single, but also was holding on to the last thread of our marriage because she was just a little too scared to let it go completely. We had regular contact, but it was weird. It was such a strange relationship. We talked but on the surface. We went to marriage counseling, but that really didn't do anything except get my hopes up in vain. Over and over she told me she wanted out in various ways. I could not believe her. I had changed after all...why wouldn't she want me back? But all of the regular contact just prolonged the inevitable and made it harder to see clearly. NO amount of contact was going to save that marriage.

The best thing I ever did in that time was to go ahead and push it: Make a decision. Do you want to be married or not. Her answer was really painful. But it also liberated me. I packed my sh!t and moved. WE got divorced within months. I've had no contact with her for at least a year and half. I still think of her. I wish her well. I don't think it had to go that way, but I did everything in my power to save it. Maybe I could have ended it sooner and saved my self a lot of money and anguish. But I don't really have regrets. I am in a good relationship for a year now, and have opened up myself to this new person in ways I did not in my marriage. Life is good. I am definitely glad the separation is over. I have serious doubts that your wife is going to snap out of the career thing. She is moving on without you. It is not the end of your life. You will recover. The question immediately is how long you want it to drag out. Because your marriage is over from what I have read. There are some great women out there for you to meet. Don't be afraid to push her to make a decision, and when she does tell her to go file for divorce, and hold her to it.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Absurdist said:


> It is my understanding that the discovery of the texts is a very recent event. There were no such texts prior to separation.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You misinterpreted my post. The discovery time is minor, except concerning his crush, it is the length, the timing of the indifference and dating DURING separation I was addressing.. 



MrPack said:


> The texts seemed to have started at least 5 weeks ago, I also looked again last night and went back a couple weeks....they've been sending picture messages to each other. That to me does not look good...


How far back can you check?


----------



## MrPack

I went back as far as before we separated. Checked again this morning and low and behold I see that he had called her last night. Was a 2 minute conversation the first phone call I've seen.

I'm headed out for vacation now I'm looking forward to it but also have a weird sense of missing my wife today. Probably because she was with me last year on this same vacation. It's hard and weird that aside from all we are going through I still have days like this where I really really miss her. 

Sometimes I wonder if I'm doing enough or have done enough to fight for my marriage but then again I think about how she has virtually nothing since our separation to give me positive signs. She's so stand offish. 

Struggling with my mindset today.


----------



## MrPack

Well I made it to Mexico yesterday. Was a little emotional for me because we are in the same spot as last year just without my wife. I had a great evening with my parents and sister sitting on the beach watching the sunset then cooking dinner. Lots of laughing which I needed. 

I actually was able to sleep in this morning felt great, now I'm sitting on the patio facing the beach with my coffee. Feeling pretty good so far this morning. Hopefully I can really use these next 3 days to reflect on my situation and figure out what I really want. I'm still going back and forth in my head about what I truly want. 

Is it weird to make a "pro's and con's" list regarding the potential to reconcile with my wife? I'm thinking that might help me figure out what would have to change and whether or not it is doable...


----------



## Tron

MrPack said:


> Is it weird to make a "pro's and con's" list regarding the potential to reconcile with my wife? I'm thinking that might help me figure out what would have to change and whether or not it is doable...


Excellent idea.


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## LongWalk

Great post by Arendt. Time gives perspective. 

Mr Pack,

I have not understood the timeline. When did the calls with this guy begin?

When did she become Facebook friends with him?


----------



## jsmart

LongWalk said:


> Mr Pack, *your wife stated that she didn't mind if you dated. Why? Because she wanted to do it herself. *So she has succeeded, for if you go to MC now and discuss cheating, you'll have to come clean if you want to be honest.
> 
> *Have you sabotaged the prospects of reconciliation? I don't think so because your wife has no desire or intention of staying with you. *She merely dislikes the idea of becoming a person whose moral character disappoints her.
> 
> *MC generally has poor results when one spouse is cheating. As long as your wife is texting some guy, she is not going take MC very seriously.*
> 
> When a man is wooing a woman if she feels that his pursuit is desperate, all the oil runs out of the transmission. Can't go another inch.


I know it hurts but thank God there are no kids. She has time for OM but not for you. There is nothing to save here. She is banging OM and has no intention of working on marriage. She just doesn't want it know that her adultery caused the destruction of the marriage. 

File for D and let your mutual friends & family know why before she makes it about your stupid indiscretion. How you can equate a quick drunken kiss to months of her banging some dude is beyond me.

Time to concentrate on rebuilding yourself.
You're way to co-dependent. Remember there are other woman out there.


----------



## MrPack

LongWalk said:


> Great post by Arendt. Time gives perspective.
> 
> Mr Pack,
> 
> I have not understood the timeline. When did the calls with this guy begin?
> 
> When did she become Facebook friends with him?


The text messages started about 3 weeks into our separation. There were never any calls until this week when I noticed 1 phone call that was about 2 minutes long. 

As for facebook, she deactivates it on and off. The first time was because she didn't want work and med school people seeing her tagged in photos while out drinking our whatever. I did notice last night that she reactivated her facebook but is not friends with this guy on facebook. Weird I know... 

There obviously needs to come a time when I approach her about these texts, that time will come. The only other people I've talked to about these text messages is my immediate family. My parents think that it could be anything but don't seem to concerned that it's anything to worry about. I think they are just saying that so I stop obsessing over it. My sister thinks its ridiculous and that I need to get to the bottom of it, she sees that it could be something more than a friendship. 

I've always had trust issues so yea this is killing me. We'll have to see how the next couple weeks play out.


----------



## MrPack

jsmart, you make some good points. Especially "she has time for OM but not me". That's why I'm so confused as to why she wants to try marriage counseling finally. I've very very conflicted right now about everything. I've always looked at divorce as a very very BIG deal, so it's hard for me to just wake up one day and file. Yes I know it is a very likely outcome considering where we are and the lack of positive growth during our separation but I'm not fully there yet. I'm giving myself time to at least see how the first session of MC goes with my W, I'll gauge things from there and make my next decision/move. 

But yes even though I feel I am slowly working on myself right now I cannot fully work on myself and find my happiness again until I;m out of this storm.


----------



## giddiot

MrPack said:


> jsmart, you make some good points. Especially "she has time for OM but not me". That's why I'm so confused as to why she wants to try marriage counseling finally. I've very very conflicted right now about everything. I've always looked at divorce as a very very BIG deal, so it's hard for me to just wake up one day and file. Yes I know it is a very likely outcome considering where we are and the lack of positive growth during our separation but I'm not fully there yet. I'm giving myself time to at least see how the first session of MC goes with my W, I'll gauge things from there and make my next decision/move.
> 
> But yes even though I feel I am slowly working on myself right now I cannot fully work on myself and find my happiness again until I;m out of this storm.


You know I wouldn't get my hopes up and feel like you can make a decision after once MC session. The first session will be introductions and brief description of each of you. It will take many more than one.


----------



## LongWalk

She may not have given it much thought. 

You can't know for sure when she started the connection with him or what it means.

But she is not interested in you or she would finding reasons to contact you.

MC is good if both parts have a desire for R. If she is texting some guy, she is probably involved with him or contemplating it.

Men generally don't have platonic GFs. Possible but even the idea that she is in some EA while estranged is off putting.


----------



## honcho

Bugged said:


> Well..off putting maybe bit since HE has already cheated on her for sure...i wouln t make a big deal of an EA...


Ea's are often far more damaging than PA's. Becoming emotionally invested in another cripples a marriage. EA's are much more "perfect worlds" and much harder to stop. Its too easy slip back into them with the ease of today's communication.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Absurdist

MrPack said:


> The text messages started about 3 weeks into our separation. There were never any calls until this week when I noticed 1 phone call that was about 2 minutes long.
> 
> As for facebook, she deactivates it on and off. The first time was because she didn't want work and med school people seeing her tagged in photos while out drinking our whatever. I did notice last night that she reactivated her facebook but is not friends with this guy on facebook. Weird I know...
> 
> There obviously needs to come a time when I approach her about these texts, that time will come. The only other people I've talked to about these text messages is my immediate family. My parents think that it could be anything but don't seem to concerned that it's anything to worry about. I think they are just saying that so I stop obsessing over it. My sister thinks its ridiculous and that I need to get to the bottom of it, she sees that it could be something more than a friendship.
> 
> I've always had trust issues so yea this is killing me. We'll have to see how the next couple weeks play out.


Trust issues? Can you flesh that out a little more? Why have you struggled with trust?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MrPack

Bugged... I'll say it again for the 10th time that girl kissed ME... I didn't approach her nor did I initiate anything. Yes I drank far too much and maybe shouldn't have been at that party. Your entitled to your own opinion but since day one you seem to be finding reasons why my wife is in the right and I'm in the wrong. Just my thoughts.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

How are you looking at the records?


----------



## Openminded

What did your parents and sister say about the kiss?


----------



## MrPack

phillybeffandswiss said:


> How are you looking at the records?


Its very easy when you have access to the online account. You can see all calls and texts made by all phones that are registered to your account. You just cant see the content of the text messages.


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## MrPack

Absurdist said:


> Trust issues? Can you flesh that out a little more? Why have you struggled with trust?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My first serious relationship my senior year of high school and then into my freshman year of college was with the same girl. She was stunning and everyone had gone after her at some point but were unsuccessful. I'm still not sure how I ended up with her to be honest. Anyway to make a long story short, she cheated on me a couple times. One of which was with a good buddy of mine. Yea that was along time ago and I was very young but I really struggled with that and it messed me up as far as trust goes. 

When my wife and I first started dating I was a very jealous person, it almost ruined our relationship before it even got serious. There is a specific time when our relationship was in full force prior to us being married. I want to say we had been dating for a good 2 years. Well I was working one night and she went out with her girlfriends. I called her when I got off work pretty late at night. She answered, was clearly hammered and proceeded to tell me that they got a ride home from her old personal trainer who they had run into at the bar that night. She said she would call me when they got back home. She lived in a condo with two other girlfriends.

She never called me back that night nor did she answer my calls when I tried to reach her that night. She finally called me back late morning the next day. She never admitted to doing anything with her personal trainer but she was acting very strange for a while after. She claimed the guy stayed the night at their condo with another buddy of his and that him and his buddy slept in the living room on the couches. To this day I still don't believe her story but I let it go and tried to move on.

Then a year into our engagement she got cold feet, we took a "break" it only lasted 3 weeks. Well about a month after the break was over and she was back home with me I found out through an old friend that at some point during our break she had hooked up with a guy that she had met through mutual friends. Supposedly it happened two nights in a row but she said all they did was kiss. Yes it hurt but I believed her that it was only a kiss and for some reason was okay with that and moved on. We got married a year and a half later. 

But even aside from my trust issues with my wife I've always been someone who doesn't trust people. I don't know where that comes from but to this day it's hard for me to really trust people unless I really know them. I'm sure something in my childhood triggers this but I've been unsuccessful in trying to pin point anything.

I'm currently reading "No More Mr. Nice Guy" and ive found a lot of similarities between myself and the men in his stories from chapter 1.


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## Marduk

Ouch, bro.

Your woman picker needs an upgrade, or at least a hotfix.


----------



## farsidejunky

That paints a very different picture.

Other than pride in trying to save your marriage, why would you want her back?

She sounds suspicious at best and a serial cheat at worst.


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## phillybeffandswiss

MrPack said:


> . Anyway to make a long story short, she cheated on me a couple times. One of which was with a good buddy of mine. Yea that was along time ago and I was very young but I really struggled with that and it messed me up as far as trust goes.
> 
> There is a specific time when our relationship was in full force prior to us being married. I want to say we had been dating for a good 2 years. Well I was working one night and she went out with her girlfriends. I called her when I got off work pretty late at night. She answered, was clearly hammered and proceeded to tell me that they got a ride home from her old personal trainer who they had run into at the bar that night. She said she would call me when they got back home. She lived in a condo with two other girlfriends.
> 
> She never called me back that night nor did she answer my calls when I tried to reach her that night. She finally called me back late morning the next day. She never admitted to doing anything with her personal trainer but she was acting very strange for a while after. She claimed the guy stayed the night at their condo with another buddy of his and that him and his buddy slept in the living room on the couches. To this day I still don't believe her story but I let it go and tried to move on.
> 
> Then a year into our engagement she got cold feet, we took a "break" it only lasted 3 weeks. Well about a month after the break was over and she was back home with me I found out through an old friend that at some point during our break she had hooked up with a guy that she had met through mutual friends. Supposedly it happened two nights in a row but she said all they did was kiss. Yes it hurt but I believed her that it was only a kiss and for some reason was okay with that and moved on. We got married a year and a half later.


Interesting. None of this explains why you claim to have severe trust issues. It does explain why you don't trust your wife or the separation. Heck, I broke up with my ex-fiance over some similar BS. 



MrPack said:


> When my wife and I first started dating I was a very jealous person, it almost ruined our relationship before it even got serious.


Examples please? What you provided makes for a rational argument for a lack of trust. I'm wondering if you, like many women and men, have been convinced you are controlling, jealous and have issues of trust when you set reasonable boundaries and expectations.




> But even aside from my trust issues with my wife I've always been someone who doesn't trust people. I don't know where that comes from but to this day it's hard for me to really trust people unless I really know them. I'm sure something in my childhood triggers this but I've been unsuccessful in trying to pin point anything.


Okay, who put this is in your head as a negative or are you self diagnosing your problems?


----------



## Marduk

Hint: it's not trust issues or paranoia if she was, and is, cheating on you.


----------



## MrPack

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Interesting. None of this explains why you claim to have severe trust issues. It does explain why you don't trust your wife or the separation. Heck, I broke up with my ex-fiance over some similar BS.
> 
> Examples please? What you provided makes for a rational argument for a lack of trust. I'm wondering if you, like many women and men, have been convinced you are controlling, jealous and have issues of trust when you set reasonable boundaries and expectations.
> 
> 
> Okay, who put this is in your head as a negative or are you self diagnosing your problems?



Example... when my wife and I first started dating and she would go out with friends I would constantly text or call just to check in. I was always worried that she would be out cheating on me or flirting with other guys. I look back now and attribute that to my ex girlfriend cheating on me. 

I guess I am self diagnosing myself. I'm thinking about finding a counselor for myself, I went to counseling as a kid when my parents separated and nearly divorced, also went to counseling as a kid when my mom came out and told us that she was an alcoholic, was very depressed because her mother was diagnosed with Alzheimer's (it was a weird and tough time in my childhood my mom essentially changed for a while was very withdrawn and at times I felt like I was acting more of a parent figure while she was going through the crap). When she became depressed and decided to announce that she was an alcoholic I was probably about 13-14 years old and very confused. I had a great childhood but also had a few small instances like I just brought up that at the time really affected me. Maybe my trust issues stem from this too? I don't know.


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## MrPack

farsidejunky said:


> That paints a very different picture.
> 
> Other than pride in trying to save your marriage, why would you want her back?
> 
> She sounds suspicious at best and a serial cheat at worst.


Pride...yes that makes sense. Sometimes I am doubting myself in that the only reason I'm wanting to fix my marriage is because I'm a prideful person and look at divorce as failure on my part. 

We were the first out of all of our friends to get married, I was the first out of all my friends to buy a house, I was one of the first out of all my friends to get a college degree and start a solid career all the while I still struggled with my self esteem. So I took a lot of pride in those accomplishments, now my marriage is failing, I'm selling my house because its just too much of a financial burden and the location isn't realistic based on where I work. I'm losing two major accomplishments...


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## Absurdist

MrPack said:


> My first serious relationship my senior year of high school and then into my freshman year of college was with the same girl. She was stunning and everyone had gone after her at some point but were unsuccessful. [But you were. Proves you are attractive to even the hottest of women]..I'm still not sure how I ended up with her to be honest. Anyway to make a long story short, she cheated on me a couple times. One of which was with a good buddy of mine. Yea that was along time ago and I was very young but I really struggled with that and it messed me up as far as trust goes. [Understandable]
> 
> When my wife and I first started dating I was a very jealous person, it almost ruined our relationship before it even got serious. There is a specific time when our relationship was in full force prior to us being married. I want to say we had been dating for a good 2 years. Well I was working one night and she went out with her girlfriends. I called her when I got off work pretty late at night. She answered, was clearly hammered and proceeded to tell me that they got a ride home from her old personal trainer who they had run into at the bar that night. She said she would call me when they got back home. She lived in a condo with two other girlfriends.
> 
> She never called me back that night nor did she answer my calls when I tried to reach her that night. She finally called me back late morning the next day. She never admitted to doing anything with her personal trainer but she was acting very strange for a while after. She claimed the guy stayed the night at their condo with another buddy of his and that him and his buddy slept in the living room on the couches. [May or may not be true] To this day I still don't believe her story but I let it go and tried to move on.
> 
> Then a year into our engagement she got cold feet, we took a "break" it only lasted 3 weeks. Well about a month after the break was over and she was back home with me I found out through an old friend that at some point during our break she had hooked up with a guy that she had met through mutual friends. Supposedly it happened two nights in a row but she said all they did was kiss. [Probably a lie MrPack. 8th graders kiss. Adults have sex.] Yes it hurt but I believed her that it was only a kiss and for some reason was okay with that and moved on. We got married a year and a half later.
> 
> But even aside from my trust issues with my wife I've always been someone who doesn't trust people. I don't know where that comes from but to this day it's hard for me to really trust people unless I really know them. I'm sure something in my childhood triggers this but I've been unsuccessful in trying to pin point anything. [You need a lot of IC on this. Since your Mom and Dad nearly divorced, you have a lot of FOO issues you need to dig down to and understand].
> 
> I'm currently reading "No More Mr. Nice Guy" and ive found a lot of similarities between myself and the men in his stories from chapter 1.


One of your original laments after separation was that you would not be attractive to another woman. First hot girlfriend found you attractive, your wife found you attractive, BBQ girl found you attractive. I think you are not seeing the forest for the trees.

I'm glad you're doing this self examination. Quite frankly, I don't know that I would have trusted your wife from the get go considering her behavior.

Keep thinking.


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## LongWalk

Don't bother with MC except to show up one time and keep your mouth shut most of the time. Let her talk. I suspect that she will say stuff that amounts to stepping on the pedal of the garbage pail, inviting you to chuck your marriage in.

You make a respectable living. You can downsize your house.


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## phillybeffandswiss

MrPack said:


> Example... when my wife and I first started dating and she would go out with friends I would constantly text or call just to check in. I was always worried that she would be out cheating on me or flirting with other guys. I look back now and attribute that to my ex girlfriend cheating on me. .


Interesting. The more I read, the less I think you have trust issues and believe you have self esteem issues. 




MrPack said:


> I guess I am self diagnosing myself. I'm thinking about finding a counselor for myself, .


Good idea.


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## MrPack

What are "FOO" issues?


----------



## Absurdist

MrPack said:


> What are "FOO" issues?


Family of Origin issues.

In my case my Dad was an extreme Mama's boy. Being spoiled spilled out into his marriage with Mom. Mom was a girl from the wrong side of the tracks and my grandmother let her know it. It was a very unhealthy dynamic for a kid like me. It took me awhile to shed some of the unhealthy behaviors learned in my upbringing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

FOO issues can burden people with horrible ingrained lessons about relationships, effectively programming them to destroy healthy connections in favor sick ones. Understanding co-dependence can help people save their marriage or move on to a healthier relationship.

Remember that sexual interaction is like a chemical reaction. Some chemical mixtures leave a pile of poisonous charred **** others are amazing substances. The dilemma is that post reaction we become committed to product because bind ourselves with the other. Nature intended this. We mate and raise young to serve our DNA.

Mr Pack, you have no children with this woman, but you are emotionally connected. She has judged you unfit to father her children. Your masculine pride commands you to chase her since you have already invested so much in her. Ask yourself if she will make a good mother.

She very likely to cheat or walk away, not because she is evil or bad. Inside her there is a restlessness. She wants to mother the world as new age doctor, but will she mother her own children in a healthy way? She is certain capable of chucking out the father of her children. Will that be good for them?

Could you and your wife have a healthy relationship? Sure, but that would require a lot of self examination and growth. Easily said. Difficult to do. That is why so much TAM advice talks about fixing oneself.


----------



## MrPack

LongWalk said:


> FOO issues can burden people with horrible ingrained lessons about relationships, effectively programming them to destroy healthy connections in favor sick ones. Understanding co-dependence can help people save their marriage or move on to a healthier relationship.
> 
> Remember that sexual interaction is like a chemical reaction. Some chemical mixtures leave a pile of poisonous charred **** others are amazing substances. The dilemma is that post reaction we become committed to product because bind ourselves with the other. Nature intended this. We mate and raise young to serve our DNA.
> 
> Mr Pack, you have no children with this woman, but you are emotionally connected. She has judged you unfit to father her children. Your masculine pride commands you to chase her since you have already invested so much in her. Ask yourself if she will make a good mother.
> 
> She very likely to cheat or walk away, not because she is evil or bad. *Inside her there is a restlessness*. She wants to mother the world as new age doctor, but will she mother her own children in a healthy way? She is certain capable of chucking out the father of her children. Will that be good for them?
> 
> Could you and your wife have a healthy relationship? Sure, but that would require a lot of self examination and growth. Easily said. Difficult to do. That is why so much TAM advice talks about fixing oneself.


Never looked at it that way, but holy cow yes she has a very restless personality always has. You know I used to tell her "how can you be living your life to the fullest right now when your so concerned about what ifs and maybes in the future"... Yes I like to plan for the future but she is constantly looking ahead at "dreams" and "possibilities" so much so that it has affected not only our marriage but her growth as an adult. She fights the urge sooo hard to just be comfortable with what she has, she's always wanting more.

Yea I want more in my career and want to raise a family but she looks past those things because she's so concerned about making a decision that will alter what she "might" want to do in the future. For example travel the world helping people. She's very compulsive and I am far from that.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

So, do you mind detailing your EA? From your perspective, not what you have read, learned or been told to say.


----------



## MrPack

phillybeffandswiss said:


> So, do you mind detailing your EA? From your perspective, not what you have read, learned or been told to say.


My EA?? I don't have one nor have I talked about one? Not sure where you got that from?


----------



## MrPack

Doesn't EA mean "emotional affair"??


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

MrPack said:


> Doesn't EA mean "emotional affair"??


 I cross posted, I had two windows open. I apologize.


----------



## Absurdist

MrPack my son was head over heels in love with a woman who essentially left him to pursue a Ph.d at a prestigious university. He was sad but he picked himself up and dusted himself off. My goodness, you should see his current GF. She would make your heart melt she's so beautiful and tender sweet. Victoria's Secret should be so lucky.

Just sayin MrPack.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Robert121

I think its unfair that she wants you to put your life on hold for her, go out and start living, it will take your mind off her.
Distance is a killer and your mind will be imagining all sorts of thing's.
Whether she is seeing someone or not you have no control over that, but you can try to enjoy your life as much as you can.


----------



## MrPack

Bugged said:


> @MrPack
> I think you should really consider ending this marriage as an option. Your wife is a restless soul...some people just arent' able to settle down...they're always after something else...something different...not necessarily better...I can relate to that...it isn't anyone's fault...but I don't think that's what you want. Quite the contrary...
> Sorry
> :crying:


Bugged, what you just said is something I've been thinking about a lot lately. As far back as I can remember there were signs that she was a restless person always looking for something else. She changed majors about 4 times as one example. Meanwhile I stood back and supported every decision she made, maybe I should have stood my ground a long time a go but to me a marriage was about making sacrifices for your spouse. I thought eventually she would settle into our life but it isnt looking that way.


----------



## Pluto2

MrPack said:


> Bugged, what you just said is something I've been thinking about a lot lately. As far back as I can remember there were signs that she was a restless person always looking for something else. She changed majors about 4 times as one example. Meanwhile I stood back and supported every decision she made, maybe I should have stood my ground a long time a go but to me a marriage was about making sacrifices for your spouse. I thought eventually she would settle into our life but it isnt looking that way.


You'd probably have a good marriage if BOTH spouses believed the same way.


----------



## MrPack

Pluto2 said:


> You'd probably have a good marriage if BOTH spouses believed the same way.


We used to be on the same page. Honestly up until a couple years ago we were great, everyone looked at us as the perfect couple. We rarely fought and when we did it would never linger on. She used to call me or text me all throughout the day telling me stuff that was going on at work/school and I would do the same. We laughed A LOT, always giving eachother crap in a goofy way. I used to be so shy but she got me into karaoke, we got hooked got our friends into it and would just go me and her all the time on the weekends. Now I'm rambling..anyway I guess my point is I thought we had it made then all these things slowly started to fizzle away... 

It's funny my company finally provided it's employees with wifi, today was the first day that we could access it. I literally opened up a blank email and started typing her email address in because I wanted to tell her that we finally have wifi. This was sometihng she always joked about, this big company not providing wifi. Then I sort of snapped out of it and realized what I was doing. It was weird... just old habit I guess.


----------



## Marduk

MrPack said:


> We used to be on the same page. Honestly up until a couple years ago we were great, everyone looked at us as the perfect couple. We rarely fought and when we did it would never linger on. She used to call me or text me all throughout the day telling me stuff that was going on at work/school and I would do the same. We laughed A LOT, always giving eachother crap in a goofy way. I used to be so shy but she got me into karaoke, we got hooked got our friends into it and would just go me and her all the time on the weekends. Now I'm rambling..anyway I guess my point is I thought we had it made then all these things slowly started to fizzle away...
> 
> It's funny my company finally provided it's employees with wifi, today was the first day that we could access it. I literally opened up a blank email and started typing her email address in because I wanted to tell her that we finally have wifi. This was sometihng she always joked about, this big company not providing wifi. Then I sort of snapped out of it and realized what I was doing. It was weird... just old habit I guess.


It happens, man. Less and less as it goes on, but it happens.

I remember one day, months after we were separated, when I was in the shower and I realized I wasn't wearing my wedding ring.

I looked around frantically, worried I'd lost it down the drain or something -- and then I remembered that we were done.

And I got really sad, and thought "when will it become normal?"

And then one day, it did.


----------



## Chaparral

You may have to use subterfuge. Never tell her you have been looking bat the cell records. Instead tell her that a friend or anonymous caller/tested told you she was having an affair with a bartender named xxx.

It doesn't look like she is the faithful type. I lost count but it sounds like she has been unfaithful three or four times now that you know of.

You might bring this up at MC but you haven't shown one reason to stay with her except to continue the inertia that you should just keep going.

She literally can't be bothered to contact you because she is trying to ween you from her life. She can however, invest time in a new relationship with a bartender that is a bartender for a reason.

At this point, you are just wasting your time. Time that you can never get back.

You are not a saint, don't let anyone give you sh!t about a two second kiss. Especially considering the cold calculating your wife is pulling on you.


----------



## MrPack

I'm struggling with people constantly asking me how things are going with my W and I. Specifically when I meet up with friends. I understand that most of them are genuinly concerned but I just dont like talking about it much anymore. Is it as easy as "hey guys I dont want to talk about it anymore, it's complicated"??

My neighbor across the street who is a good friend of mine asks me about our situation everytime I see him, I do know he genuinly cares but I'm sick of talking about it. 

I'm to the point now were I have a few people close to me that I use for support but even they dont know EVERYTHING. I'm sort of tired of talking to my friends about it. Honestly I prefer posting here on TAM more than anything else.


----------



## Marduk

MrPack said:


> I'm struggling with people constantly asking me how things are going with my W and I. Specifically when I meet up with friends. I understand that most of them are genuinly concerned but I just dont like talking about it much anymore. Is it as easy as "hey guys I dont want to talk about it anymore, it's complicated"??
> 
> My neighbor across the street who is a good friend of mine asks me about our situation everytime I see him, I do know he genuinly cares but I'm sick of talking about it.
> 
> I'm to the point now were I have a few people close to me that I use for support but even they dont know EVERYTHING. I'm sort of tired of talking to my friends about it. Honestly I prefer posting here on TAM more than anything else.


This is common too.

"You know what? I'm OK, thanks for asking. I'm in a place where I don't really want to talk about it for a while, OK?"


----------



## Absurdist

MrPack said:


> I'm struggling with people constantly asking me how things are going with my W and I. Specifically when I meet up with friends. I understand that most of them are genuinly concerned but I just dont like talking about it much anymore. Is it as easy as "hey guys I dont want to talk about it anymore, it's complicated"??
> 
> My neighbor across the street who is a good friend of mine asks me about our situation everytime I see him, I do know he genuinly cares but I'm sick of talking about it.
> 
> I'm to the point now were I have a few people close to me that I use for support but even they dont know EVERYTHING. I'm sort of tired of talking to my friends about it. Honestly I prefer posting here on TAM more than anything else.


What do you think your wife says when people ask her those questions? You know they do. It would be interesting to know don't you think?

"I'm hanging in there XXXX, thanks for asking". Is your best response.

But it shows that people care about you MrPack. If they didn't give a $hit they wouldn't ask.


----------



## MrPack

Haha well funny that I brought up the subject of not wanting to talk to people anymore about my W and I. I stopped at the grocery store on my way home from work tonight. Ran into my cousins husband, he starts telling me they just moved about 2 miles from me. All excited about the two of them and my W and I should start hanging out and even talked about us coming over this weekend for dinner. Well he obviously hadn't heard about our situation so I just said..."Well I guess you don't know whats going on, W and I are separated I don't want to get into to it but that's where we are right now". He was pretty good about not asking too many questions.

I just thought it was really odd/funny that happened hours after my post. 

I also talked to my neighbor a few minutes ago while I was outside water the plants. Made plans to bbq and hangout with him and his wife and kids this Friday evening. I know they'll ask about me and the W but I'll keep it short. I'm kind of looking forward to hanging out with them for a change as apposed to going out with my single buddies to a bar all night.


----------



## MrPack

Absurdist said:


> *What do you think your wife says when people ask her those questions? You know they do. It would be interesting to know don't you think?*
> 
> "I'm hanging in there XXXX, thanks for asking". Is your best response.
> 
> But it shows that people care about you MrPack. If they didn't give a $hit they wouldn't ask.


Well I know my W went to dinner with a mutual friend a couple weeks ago. Naturally she asked my W how this whole separation was going. My wife told her that we talk regularly almost everyday!!! Wow when I heard that I almost fell out of my chair. We DO NOT talk everyday, plus when we do talk its me initiating it unless she needs something. I don't know why she would say that, pretty much flat out lied.


----------



## Absurdist

MrPack said:


> Well I know my W went to dinner with a mutual friend a couple weeks ago. Naturally she asked my W how this whole separation was going. My wife told her that we talk regularly almost everyday!!! Wow when I heard that I almost fell out of my chair. We DO NOT talk everyday, plus when we do talk its me initiating it unless she needs something. I don't know why she would say that, pretty much flat out lied.


It's called guilt. She feels it and her response is a rationalization. Maybe this guilt will go away... Counseling is going to be interesting MrPack. When do you see the counselor?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MrPack

Absurdist said:


> It's called guilt. She feels it and her response is a rationalization. Maybe this guilt will go away... Counseling is going to be interesting MrPack. When do you see the counselor?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Monday next week. Yes it should be very interesting. I'm not nervous thinking about it right now but I'm sure Sunday night and all day at work Monday I'll be a little on edge. I'm trying to stay positive overall but I'm very doubtful that anything good will come of the MC. I think it's just her way of saying "she tried". We'll see...


----------



## Pluto2

Don't be nervous, the counselor is there to help.

But, do expect her to control the focus of the session on to whatever short-comings she perceives you to have, real or not. The more she does that, the less time will be spent on her. Perhaps suggest that each of you get half of the session to discuss the most pressing problems that each of you have. If she's really wanting to work on things that won't be a problem for her. Just a thought.


----------



## Chaparral

People not in a new relationship do not text constantly to one another. How many times a day does she text Bob the bartender compared to you.

At MC you should ask right off the bat if she's been seeing Bob the bartender. Look closely to see if she's lying then file for divorce and go dark on her. Tell her parents and friends she's seeing Bob the bartender and you're dumping her cheating ass.

Nice guy bullsh!t gets more people divorced than anything else around here. You should have filed when she walked out the door.


----------



## LongWalk

Chaparral,

Why do you call him Bob the bartender? I missed something. Does Mr Pack have any idea who he is?

A truism about relationships, men chase, women choose. Perhaps Mrs Pack is evaluating the new guy, trying to decide whether to officially reveal his existence. Her on and off again FB could be because she accepted a friendship request from some men and had to decide whether to allow this to become public knowledge. I think FB has a function to block individuals from seeing photos.

Machiavelli, a poster who is not on TAM anymore, made an interesting observation about women on their way out of a relationship. A man's inability to see a woman's doubts sends a signal to her that he is not connected intimately. A man who truly knows and loves a woman should be able to read her mind, according to this mind set.

Thus, if you are to raise the question of OM in MC. I would not mention telephone records. If MC asks you where you think your marriage stands, you should say that your gut tells you that she has met someone else and is at the very least emotionally involved. The future devoted to altruism in other countries is sign of her lack of commitment to her own life. She doubts her own decision making. Add that you have tried to be someone who made her feel secure. You were an anchor and she cut the line. You wish her luck hoisting the sails and setting a course.

You are glad that she did not agree to having children when they would likely have ended up with divorced parents. If she starts blathering about how she didn't want it to end this way, just get up, excuse yourself politely and leave. Once you have walked out without begging and pleading for a chance to love her, you'll be able to tell friends and family that she had you dangling but it's thankfully over.

One unpleasant possibility with MC is that she is going to tell you that it is over in the first minute. That could be painful.


----------



## Marduk

MrPack said:


> Haha well funny that I brought up the subject of not wanting to talk to people anymore about my W and I. I stopped at the grocery store on my way home from work tonight. Ran into my cousins husband, he starts telling me they just moved about 2 miles from me. All excited about the two of them and my W and I should start hanging out and even talked about us coming over this weekend for dinner. Well he obviously hadn't heard about our situation so I just said..."Well I guess you don't know whats going on, W and I are separated I don't want to get into to it but that's where we are right now". He was pretty good about not asking too many questions.
> 
> I just thought it was really odd/funny that happened hours after my post.
> 
> I also talked to my neighbor a few minutes ago while I was outside water the plants. Made plans to bbq and hangout with him and his wife and kids this Friday evening. I know they'll ask about me and the W but I'll keep it short. I'm kind of looking forward to hanging out with them for a change as apposed to going out with my single buddies to a bar all night.


They care about you.

And this is a good thing.


----------



## MrPack

Hey guys, it's been a few days since I've posted. I've had a pretty good weekend so far. Yesterday (Friday) I worked until about 4pm then went home with no plans for the weekend other than bbq'in with my neighbors which fell through. I was thinking this was the first weekend since my separation that I was okay with having no major plans for the weekend. Up until this weekend I was always trying to make plans with friends and family on the weekends to distract me from whats going on. Well this weekend I made no real plans and it felt great. Last night my buddy came over and we went to dinner, he came back to my house we had 2 beers then he left I was in bed by 10pm. Woke up this morning and sat on my patio with coffee and my lap top reading the news and relaxing, spent the day alone at home cleaning the house a bit and just relaxing. Went to another buddies house this afternoon for a bbq stayed for a few hours then went home, some of my buddies gave me crap for leaving so early but I just wanted to go home and be home with my dog and relax...didn't wanna stay and get drunk or watch them get drunk. I've really enjoyed having a semi quiet weekend so far somewhat alone. To me this seems to be somewhat of a step forward being okay with myself at home alone with my thoughts doing whatever I want to do. Tomorrow weather pending I plan on doing some yard work then going to my parents house to make them dinner.

As most of you know Monday evening I have our first MC session with my W, really not sure how it's going to go and don't really have any expectations. I do know that I'm ready to just sit back and listen and watch her. I've done most of the talking through all of this I hope she is ready to open up but who knows. 

Right now I'm sitting on my back patio watching a storm roll in listening to music (sturgill simpson, if you don't know who he is check him out) and scouting for the upcoming fantasy football season. I feel pretty good right now. This may seem like a very small step if anything but I for some reason feel awesome that I've been able to just do my own thing this weekend, come and go as I please without having to plan things out with people to fill my time.


----------



## Absurdist

MrPack said:


> Hey guys, it's been a few days since I've posted. I've had a pretty good weekend so far. Yesterday (Friday) I worked until about 4pm then went home with no plans for the weekend other than bbq'in with my neighbors which fell through. I was thinking this was the first weekend since my separation that I was okay with having no major plans for the weekend. Up until this weekend I was always trying to make plans with friends and family on the weekends to distract me from whats going on. Well this weekend I made no real plans and it felt great. Last night my buddy came over and we went to dinner, he came back to my house we had 2 beers then he left I was in bed by 10pm. Woke up this morning and sat on my patio with coffee and my lap top reading the news and relaxing, spent the day alone at home cleaning the house a bit and just relaxing. Went to another buddies house this afternoon for a bbq stayed for a few hours then went home, some of my buddies gave me crap for leaving so early but I just wanted to go home and be home with my dog and relax...didn't wanna stay and get drunk or watch them get drunk. I've really enjoyed having a semi quiet weekend so far somewhat alone. To me this seems to be somewhat of a step forward being okay with myself at home alone with my thoughts doing whatever I want to do. Tomorrow weather pending I plan on doing some yard work then going to my parents house to make them dinner.
> 
> As most of you know Monday evening I have our first MC session with my W, really not sure how it's going to go and don't really have any expectations. I do know that I'm ready to just sit back and listen and watch her. I've done most of the talking through all of this I hope she is ready to open up but who knows.
> 
> Right now I'm sitting on my back patio watching a storm roll in listening to music (sturgill simpson, if you don't know who he is check him out) and scouting for the upcoming fantasy football season. I feel pretty good right now. This may seem like a very small step if anything but I for some reason feel awesome that I've been able to just do my own thing this weekend, come and go as I please without having to plan things out with people to fill my time.


"Life Ain't Fair and the World Is Mean" is quite fitting for your current situation.

Good Luck Monday Night MrPack.


----------



## MrPack

Absurdist said:


> "Life Ain't Fair and the World Is Mean" is quite fitting for your current situation.
> 
> Good Luck Monday Night MrPack.


One of my favorite songs by Sturgill...quite fitting for sure. And thank you, I will certainly be posting Monday night!


----------



## Pluto2

Good for you to find peace and relaxation. Hoping for hope on Monday.


----------



## Chaparral

I really liked Sturgill Simpson. For some light entertainment go to this link from the FROM DUSK TILL DAWN movie LOL.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YiCjUNI1GC0


----------



## MrPack

Chaparral said:


> I really liked Sturgill Simpson. For some light entertainment go to this link from the FROM DUSK TILL DAWN movie LOL.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YiCjUNI1GC0


Haha, favorite scene from that movie!


----------



## farsidejunky

Enjoy the rest of your weekend, bro. Good luck in your counseling tomorrow.


----------



## honcho

MrPack said:


> Hey guys, it's been a few days since I've posted. I've had a pretty good weekend so far. Yesterday (Friday) I worked until about 4pm then went home with no plans for the weekend other than bbq'in with my neighbors which fell through. I was thinking this was the first weekend since my separation that I was okay with having no major plans for the weekend. Up until this weekend I was always trying to make plans with friends and family on the weekends to distract me from whats going on. Well this weekend I made no real plans and it felt great. Last night my buddy came over and we went to dinner, he came back to my house we had 2 beers then he left I was in bed by 10pm. Woke up this morning and sat on my patio with coffee and my lap top reading the news and relaxing, spent the day alone at home cleaning the house a bit and just relaxing. Went to another buddies house this afternoon for a bbq stayed for a few hours then went home, some of my buddies gave me crap for leaving so early but I just wanted to go home and be home with my dog and relax...didn't wanna stay and get drunk or watch them get drunk. I've really enjoyed having a semi quiet weekend so far somewhat alone. To me this seems to be somewhat of a step forward being okay with myself at home alone with my thoughts doing whatever I want to do. Tomorrow weather pending I plan on doing some yard work then going to my parents house to make them dinner.
> 
> As most of you know Monday evening I have our first MC session with my W, really not sure how it's going to go and don't really have any expectations. I do know that I'm ready to just sit back and listen and watch her. I've done most of the talking through all of this I hope she is ready to open up but who knows.
> 
> Right now I'm sitting on my back patio watching a storm roll in listening to music (sturgill simpson, if you don't know who he is check him out) and scouting for the upcoming fantasy football season. I feel pretty good right now. This may seem like a very small step if anything but I for some reason feel awesome that I've been able to just do my own thing this weekend, come and go as I please without having to plan things out with people to fill my time.


Has she had any contact with you during these weeks leading up to MC? 

It's good your starting to enjoy the time by yourself.


----------



## LongWalk

Sounds like you have wrestled the alligator despair to a standstill.

WantWifeBack wrote a thread that might inspire you.

I'll look for the link

Here it is.


----------



## MrPack

honcho said:


> Has she had any contact with you during these weeks leading up to MC?
> 
> It's good your starting to enjoy the time by yourself.


Theres been some contact. She contacted me last week to let me know that she was going to Mexico through school for the weekend for a mission trip. She was a lead so she had to get international service on the phone plan for the weekend so she had means of communication with the other leads while they were driving down there (she paid for the international service not me). We did have some small talk during this text conversation. She was actually joking around with me over text. Seemed to be in a very good mood...I dunno I wouldnt say it was flirting by any means but she was acting a little different than normal. 

Late last week I sent her a text reminding her of our appointment today, I know I know I should not have done that. She replied back with "yes, thank you...I can track my appointments on my own (with a smiley face)". I said "okay well I was just reminding you". She replied with "I know but please stop, I'm trying to work on my issues of depending on you to make sure I dont forget things like appointments". I just replied back with "Okay".

See that was always one of my biggest issues I saw especially since she started med school. She is so tunnel visioned that she forgets family and friends bdays, forgets to call people back to the point where I would get phone calls from her family members cause they couldnt get a hold of her. I know especially with state of our marriage being so crappy now I need to fully disengage my tempatation remind her of things. She's a big girl, she wanted this time on her own so I know I should not have sent her a reminder text about our MC appointment.

Sorry I was blabbing but the contact between us hasnt been much. Just small talk here and there mostly vai text message.


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## Pluto2

You are going to have to find a way to resist the urge to pick up the pieces, or what you perceive as pieces. She acts the way she chooses to act. Tunnel vision or inconsiderate. Place what ever name you want on it. If your appointment was important to her, she would find a way to be there. If contact with family members was a priority, she would call. Treating her like a child will not benefit either of you. Let her miss a meeting, or an important family message. Then if she honestly thought those things were important, she will find a way.


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## Absurdist

MrPack said:


> n normal.
> 
> She replied back with "yes, thank you...I can track my appointments on my own (with a smiley face)". I said "okay well I was just reminding you". She replied with "I know but please stop, I'm trying to work on my issues of depending on you to make sure I dont forget things like appointments". I just replied back with "Okay".
> 
> .


She's telling you what she wants. You have always been her "project manager". She doesn't want you telling her to tie her shoes, wipe her nose or send Aunt Bertha a birthday card. She feels confined even though you have her bests interests at heart. She's rebelling against you much like a kid rebels against a parent. You are an uber responsible guy but she thinks you have her on a leash. She wants the freedom to screw up. MrPack... let her screw up. She wants to own her own shyt without you cleaning up after her. She doesn't find that attractive. That's one of the messages she's sending you with this separation.


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## MrPack

My wife opened up her facebook page again about a week ago. She was tagged in some photos from her mission trip this past weekend. Mainly photos of them working at the clinic in Mexico. I had mixed emotions, part of me was happy for her that she was able to do that (help less fortunate) but also I was upset inside because it's like she finds time to do a trip like that for a whole weekend but she doesnt make any time to really work on our marriage or any time for me in general. 

Back before the separation she always had a jam packed schedule between classes, work, studying or little volunteer stuff at the school. As I sit here thinking about our upcomming MC appointment this evening I'm having mixed feelings/emotions. I really have no idea what to expect but in my mind today I'm thinking man that would be great if we could eventually find some common ground and work things out. Then my other thoughts tell me that will never happen due to the fact that school is her NUMBER ONE priority right now and most likely will be for the next 3 years, then what?? Work will be her NUMBER ONE priority, traveling, volunteering....???

Maybe I'm being too negative about all this but I'm having a REALLY tought time trying to understand how she would have time to do her part to fix our marriage. Honestly, it was hard enough to keep it going as much as we did with her constantly making herself busy, how can I expect her to do her part to put the pieces back together?

I'm also struggling again worrying about things that I cannot control. I know that I can only control myself and it's stupid to worry about things taht I have absolutely no control over but it seems to be a struggle recently again.


----------



## Love Pandy

Separation due to med school?...seems like a silly reason to seperate. I mean if your complaint is about not seeing one another why would you seperate?


----------



## bandit.45

Is this a Christian mission trip? I'm surprised the mission organization is allowing her to participate given she is separating from you. They must not be Southern Baptist. Hmmm.

Quit talking to her. Stop texting and calling and communicating. What she wants is space so give it to her. All you are doing with that texting and reminding her of stuff is chasing her away. 

You really don't get it.


----------



## MrPack

Love Pandy said:


> Separation due to med school?...seems like a silly reason to seperate. I mean if your complaint is about not seeing one another why would you seperate?


No we are not separated for the sole reason of med school. Med school was sort of the straw that broke the camels back.


----------



## MrPack

bandit.45 said:


> Is this a Christian mission trip? I'm surprised the mission organization is allowing her to participate given she is separating from you. They must not be Southern Baptist. Hmmm.
> 
> Quit talking to her. Stop texting and calling and communicating. What she wants is space so give it to her. All you are doing with that texting and reminding her of stuff is chasing her away.
> 
> You really don't get it.


It is not a Christian mission trip, it's throug her med school. 

I guess I dont get it... thats why I'm here on TAM, may take me a while but I hope no matter which way this all goes with my W I hope to come out a better person.


----------



## MrPack

Absurdist said:


> She's telling you what she wants. You have always been her "project manager". She doesn't want you telling her to tie her shoes, wipe her nose or send Aunt Bertha a birthday card. She feels confined even though you have her bests interests at heart. She's rebelling against you much like a kid rebels against a parent. You are an uber responsible guy but she thinks you have her on a leash. She wants the freedom to screw up. MrPack... let her screw up. She wants to own her own shyt without you cleaning up after her. She doesn't find that attractive. That's one of the messages she's sending you with this separation.


I know I know... I'll get it someday...I guess I had a little slip up last week with all those texts.


----------



## MrPack

Ran across a pretty fitting quote this afternoon...

"If my absence doesnt affect your life then my presence has no meaning in it"


----------



## thenub

MrPack said:


> Ran across a pretty fitting quote this afternoon...
> 
> 
> 
> "If my absence doesnt affect your life then my presence has no meaning in it"



Very true.... Something to live by


----------



## MrPack

Well...I guess I would say I'm feeling a bit defeated, overwhelmed, exhausted, pi$$ed off and disappointed. I just got home from our first MC session. I've seen the counselor twice on my own so I went in figuring the counselor would focus a bit more on my wife and where she stands with all of this. He did just that. One thing I can give her is that she did open up, she didn't hold back. Here are a few of the issues she expressed this evening that got us to where we are today.

-when asked about the kid issue in her words this is what she said. "I know Mrpack wants kids, I know his passion in life is to be a father and have a family, I just don't know if I want to pigeon hole myself right now by committing to having kids after med school". (Pigeon hole???!!! WTF really???) What I took from that is that she does not want to commit to having kids at any certain time because she still doesn't know what she wants to do after med school. 

-She claims she has been unhappy for 3 years now. Spent a while trying to fight the feeling of unhappiness in our marriage and eventually got to a breaking point. 

-She admits that when we married she was a different person, wanted the family life, wanted kids in the future but her mindset, goals and passions have changed. (I cant really blame her for that, I'm learning that people grow and change at all points in life. Still doesn't mean I cant have some anger about it but I cant get mad AT her for it)

-She says that what she wants out of a spouse or partner is someone who is always teaching her something stimulating. Someone who helps her grow as a person intellectually. (This one hurt a bit and it really pi$$ed me off).

-She fed some BS about how she always wanted to do things outdoors, cultural things and that I always shot them down. I'll admit and did admit that yes at one point when we first married I was a bit of a home body and didn't like to try new things out of my comfort zone but I changed and worked on that. I guess I didn't change enough.

-She did talk about how great of a guy I am, how much she does love me, how I have the biggest heart she's ever seen, how she often wondered why/how she ended up with such a great guy...(but...these qualities apparently aren't enough anymore)

-She said that not long before we separated she started to realize that to a certain degree I was turning into a "father figure" to her. Said that she relied on me too much for support emotionally/financially. Said I wasn't smothering her but she feels like she was too dependent on me for everything outside of school or work. 


Once the counselor started giving his suggestions, one of which was for us to try and have dinner together at the house a couple times within the next month she started to change. Her posture changed, she started to tear up, she literally went pale and had the same look on her face like she did the night she asked for the separation. She was in such obvious emotional distress that the counselor asked if she was okay. She looked up with tears in her eyes and said that this was all so overwhelming and she doesn't know how much more she has inside of her to give towards our marriage. Needless to say this hurt bad, I didn't cry, I didn't get mad I sat there and listened. The counselor then suggested she come back to see him on her own. After 5 minutes of the counselor and her going back and forth about a time and day they finally settled on an appointment in 2 weeks. She will make another appointment for the both of us after that individual appointment...at least that's the plan. 

So we are walking to our cars after the appointment I said something like you know I wasn't expecting a big miracle or epiphany to come out of one appointment, you seem very overwhelmed but which ever way this goes it's going to be hard. She looked at me and said "This is just going to take so much time and effort to work on things" (sort of like she wasn't willing or didn't think she could give that time or effort). I about fell over....NO $hit! I said look people make time for things that are important to them and I left it at that. I said I hope you can make it to your individual appointment in a couple weeks and we'll go from there. She then said something about how she's tired knowing that I am not happy right now and that she is not happy right now and feels like we are prolonging our unhappiness. I said if I wake up tomorrow with divorce papers signed do you really think right then and there both of us will be 100% happy all the sudden? That takes time. I also told her to promise me that if she gets to a point whether its tomorrow or in a month where she feels like she is done she needs to tell me, I told her I do not want her going to MC just because she thinks that's what I want and that its the right thing to do. She has to want to go as well.

Needless to say I do not have a good feeling about any of this. Unless I'm looking at this the wrong way I feel like I should back off again for a while at least until the week of her appointment and only if she contacts me. You know it really makes me mad that she talks about how much time and effort this will take if we decide to keep going and truly work on things all the while she makes time to go to all these weekend seminars, mission trips, heck she's even going kayaking Wednesday morning with her study group. 

I feel like I am a lot stronger than I was a month ago and she's starting to recognize that. I'm not mentioning this because I think she'll want me back all the sudden but I think in the back of her mind she just figures that I'm sitting around in self pitty every day and now that she's seeing my strength its messing with her head. Anyway that's the gist of our appointment. I'm open to opinions, advice or thoughts on all of this. Sorry for the long post, I'm sure I still left stuff out that I may remember after a nights sleep.


----------



## Tron

And the bartender?


----------



## farsidejunky

Let her go, Pack.

If it is meant to be, she will return.

As it stands now, she is done. And I think you know it.


----------



## Chaparral

She has time for Bartender Bob but not you. She just bought herself two more weeks to string you along.

Who is going on the kayak trip with her?

Nothing you've written about her indicates she is the one that can share your life and dreams.

Are you putting the things you are now doing on Facebook?


----------



## Chaparral

Honestly, the amount of texting going on between your wife and the bartender is off the charts except for people in a new relationship. The odds she is dating him is in the 90 percentile range. Even worse when it comes to cheating a wayward wife blames the husband for not catching it and stopping it. The dynamic is that if the husband truly knew her he would know whats going on. Its a no win situation but it is what it is.

Here is a good guide to help out.

*Just Let Them Go

The end result?

The end result is to respect yourself in the end,
let go of the people that don't value you or respect you.

That is the end result.

The quickest way to get a cheating spouse back is to let them go with a smile on your face wishing them the best in life and hoping that everything works out in their relationship with their affair partner.

Seriously, the quickest way to get them back.

Nothing else works better or quicker.

Let them go.

Agree with them and their feelings,
"you should be with the OM, I hope he makes you happy, good bye"

Wouldn't that be true love?

If you really loved your spouse,
and wanted them to have what they really want in life which is the other person they're in love with,
wouldn't letting them go be the approach if you really love them?

Why focus on the affair or the drama associated with it?
Just let them go. Give them their freedom.

You can take a good hard look at yourself in the mirror everyday and improve yourself but do it for you, not for someone else, the changes will never stick when it's done for someone else, do it for your benefit and you will probably make those changes last much longer if not indefinitely - because it's for your benefit and you realize the importance and value in that benefit because YOU are involved.

I will never tell someone to change to entice a WAW back when she's been cheating on him. I don't care how bad a marriage, there is never an excuse for cheating. That is a personal decision that someone makes to cheat on their spouse. If a marriage is really bad, leave, get a divorce, speak up to your spouse and tell them flat out "this marriage sucks and if things don't change I'm going to leave you and find someone better" and if things don't improve, leave that person.

But cheating, no excuses.

Think about cheating.
A wayward spouse who cheats on their spouse goes behind their back, secretly, telling lies, feeling guilty, getting angry at their spouse for getting in the way of their fantasies but never owning up to their actions, never admitting what they're doing. If a person who cheats on their spouse felt justified in their actions, why hide and go behind their spouses backs when they start cheating, why lie, why make up excuses about late nights at work and going to a friends place and sleeping over because they drank too much and any other such nonsense?

Deep down, the cheating spouse knows there is something inherently wrong with their actions otherwise they wouldn't lie about their actions and hide what they're doing.

Fighting the affair? For what reason?
To compete with the OM or OW for your spouse?
What message does that communicate to your wayward spouse?
They have lots of value and you have none because now you have to compete with another person for their love? Competing with your wayward spouse's affair partner never works, it just prolongs an ugly drama filled process.

And for your last point,
The easiest way to show you will not tolerate cheating in your relationship is to let that person go. That is the easiest and most effective way to show this.

"Look wife/husband, I won't be in an open relationship with you, I won't give you X number of days, weeks, months to make your mind, if you really feel like you need to sit on the fence on this decision and can't decide between your affair partner and me well I will make the decision for you, you can be with them because I'm no longer an option. I love you and wish you a good life with them and hope it works out for you because it didn't work out for us. Now the best thing we can do for each other is to make this process as graceful and peaceful as possible for us and our children, I'll contact a lawyer/mediator and get started on the process of our legal separation/divorce."

You give them what they want.
You don't fight them on this issue.
You agree with their feelings,
they want to be with the other person, fine they should be with the other person, let them be with the other person.

You will never convince a person to change their feelings with your arguments and logic. You can not find one member on this website in a situation where they are dealing with infidelity where they got their spouse to change their mind about how they feel about their affair partner.

You can't say "don't love them, love me instead",
you can't say "look at me, I'm better in every way compared to your affair partner, pick me instead of them",
you can't say "you took marriage vows, you promised to love me"

I agree, you don't have to make it easy for your wayward spouse to have an affair, but when you let them go, "lovingly detach", you don't have to worry about making it easy for them. It's no longer your concern, they can have you or them but not both and not at the same time and since they've chosen to have an affair, they've made their choice, there is no profit in fighting that decision. Let them go and move on with your life, that is the quickest, easiest way to get them back.

You definitely don't support them financially and enable them, that would be weak, wussy, clingy, insecure behavior - something in you telling you that you need to support them financially while they're having an affair, hoping they'll realize how nice you are and come back to you.

Just let them go, have them move out or you move out and live a good life without them.*


----------



## Chaparral

If this post works here is morituri's links to some worthwhile reading.

Re: Just Let Them Go 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(Hope nobody minds but I ran out of space on my signature field. I am parking my links here for the time being.)


Just Let Them Go
The 180 degree rules
"Counter Intuitive" aka Things YOU need to DO that aren't obvious... .

Man Up real life story
Forgiveness

Boundaries,
Character

Shrink4Men - for men who are recovering from relationships with abusive women and the non-abusive family and friends who love them 
No More Mr Nice Guy
Dads divorce
Not Just Friends

EMDR
Sperm Wars: Infidelity, Sexual Conflict and Other Bedroom Battles,

3 Ways to Erase Post-Affair Anger
Cheated On, Tortured by Images
Feeding the Affair-Image Beast
Erase Obsessive Affair Images (in 30 Minutes)
How to Rebuild Your Spouse's Trust After an Affair
Surveillance Methods As A Defense

Three Minute Therapy: Change Your Thinking, Change Your Life.
Leaving an Abusive Wife: Pre-Divorce Checklist
Shrink4Men

Mistake: An act committed without any knowledge of a possible negative outcome.

Bad Choice: An act committed with awareness of the possible negative outcome but deciding to ignore it or hoping for the best.


----------



## Chaparral

Well, that didn't work, lol. here is a link to the page and the post is # 237

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/24796-just-let-them-go-16.html#post536041


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## Pluto2

Dude, this is not good. First of all, when did you get a chance to speak to your issues?

My reading of what you've posted is that she is scared and weak, that she wants out but doesn't have the strength of character to pull the plug so she is hoping you will give up first. 

-She knows you want kids, but she doesn't, or at least she doesn't "right now"

-She wants someone who will challenge her (I could be wrong but I see this as cheater-speak for someone new, not someone with a vast intelligence. Otherwise.....why the bartender)

-The mere suggestion of having dinner with her husband started making her ill.

-Finding time for a second appointment was overwhelming. Please. Sid she think one session would fix all the problems?

My advice would be to strictly follow the 180. Do not initiate any communication with her, even before her appointment. Let her do this on her own. That eliminates her criticism of you as her "father" It also keeps you from appearing that you are chasing after her which will stroke her ego, but not win her back.


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## Absurdist

MrPack said:


> Well...I guess I would say I'm feeling a bit defeated, overwhelmed, exhausted, pi$$ed off and disappointed. I just got home from our first MC session. I've seen the counselor twice on my own so I went in figuring the counselor would focus a bit more on my wife and where she stands with all of this. He did just that. One thing I can give her is that she did open up, she didn't hold back. Here are a few of the issues she expressed this evening that got us to where we are today.
> 
> -when asked about the kid issue in her words this is what she said. "I know Mrpack wants kids, I know his passion in life is to be a father and have a family, I just don't know if I want to pigeon hole myself right now by committing to having kids after med school". (Pigeon hole???!!! WTF really???) What I took from that is that she does not want to commit to having kids at any certain time because she still doesn't know what she wants to do after med school.
> 
> This is a core value which should be shared by a husband and wife. It looks like she made a life change. Not a good sign.
> 
> -She claims she has been unhappy for 3 years now. Spent a while trying to fight the feeling of unhappiness in our marriage and eventually got to a breaking point.
> 
> Did she tell you why she has been unhappy? This is a very vague statement.
> 
> -She admits that when we married she was a different person, wanted the family life, wanted kids in the future but her mindset, goals and passions have changed. (I cant really blame her for that, I'm learning that people grow and change at all points in life. Still doesn't mean I cant have some anger about it but I cant get mad AT her for it)
> 
> So she decides to get off the horse in mid stream. MrPack this is a selfish statement. It's also the sign of someone who is immature and needs to grow up.
> 
> -She says that what she wants out of a spouse or partner is someone who is always teaching her something stimulating. Someone who helps her grow as a person intellectually. (This one hurt a bit and it really pi$$ed me off).
> 
> This is a crock of shyt and you know it.
> 
> -She fed some BS about how she always wanted to do things outdoors, cultural things and that I always shot them down. I'll admit and did admit that yes at one point when we first married I was a bit of a home body and didn't like to try new things out of my comfort zone but I changed and worked on that. I guess I didn't change enough.
> 
> More hyperbole.
> 
> -She did talk about how great of a guy I am, how much she does love me, how I have the biggest heart she's ever seen, how she often wondered why/how she ended up with such a great guy...(but...these qualities apparently aren't enough anymore)
> 
> -She said that not long before we separated she started to realize that to a certain degree I was turning into a "father figure" to her. Said that she relied on me too much for support emotionally/financially. Said I wasn't smothering her but she feels like she was too dependent on me for everything outside of school or work.
> 
> Looks like I was a prophet. As told to you in a pm and in post #387, you have become a Daddy to her. This is not good and the most honest thing she has said. No one wants to have an intimate relationship or have sex with someone they believe to be "father-like". This is your biggest hurdle. I don't know if it can be fixed.
> 
> 
> Once the counselor started giving his suggestions, one of which was for us to try and have dinner together at the house a couple times within the next month she started to change. Her posture changed, she started to tear up, she literally went pale and had the same look on her face like she did the night she asked for the separation. She was in such obvious emotional distress that the counselor asked if she was okay. She looked up with tears in her eyes and said that this was all so overwhelming and she doesn't know how much more she has inside of her to give towards our marriage. Needless to say this hurt bad, I didn't cry, I didn't get mad I sat there and listened. The counselor then suggested she come back to see him on her own. After 5 minutes of the counselor and her going back and forth about a time and day they finally settled on an appointment in 2 weeks. She will make another appointment for the both of us after that individual appointment...at least that's the plan.
> 
> MrPack she is 95% gone. I think you need to think deep and hard about a life without her. I know this is painful and I grieve right along with you.
> 
> So we are walking to our cars after the appointment I said something like you know I wasn't expecting a big miracle or epiphany to come out of one appointment, you seem very overwhelmed but which ever way this goes it's going to be hard. She looked at me and said "This is just going to take so much time and effort to work on things" (sort of like she wasn't willing or didn't think she could give that time or effort). I about fell over....NO $hit! I said look people make time for things that are important to them and I left it at that. I said I hope you can make it to your individual appointment in a couple weeks and we'll go from there. She then said something about how she's tired knowing that I am not happy right now and that she is not happy right now and feels like we are prolonging our unhappiness. I said if I wake up tomorrow with divorce papers signed do you really think right then and there both of us will be 100% happy all the sudden? That takes time. I also told her to promise me that if she gets to a point whether its tomorrow or in a month where she feels like she is done she needs to tell me, I told her I do not want her going to MC just because she thinks that's what I want and that its the right thing to do. She has to want to go as well.
> 
> If she is not willing to work you don't have a snowball's chance in H3ll. You are wasting your emotional energy trying to fix someone who doesn't want to be fixed or to put in the effort.
> 
> Needless to say I do not have a good feeling about any of this. Unless I'm looking at this the wrong way I feel like I should back off again for a while at least until the week of her appointment and only if she contacts me. You know it really makes me mad that she talks about how much time and effort this will take if we decide to keep going and truly work on things all the while she makes time to go to all these weekend seminars, mission trips, heck she's even going kayaking Wednesday morning with her study group.
> 
> I feel like I am a lot stronger than I was a month ago and she's starting to recognize that. I'm not mentioning this because I think she'll want me back all the sudden but I think in the back of her mind she just figures that I'm sitting around in self pitty every day and now that she's seeing my strength its messing with her head. Anyway that's the gist of our appointment. I'm open to opinions, advice or thoughts on all of this. Sorry for the long post, I'm sure I still left stuff out that I may remember after a nights sleep.


Go back and read my post #167. It was my very first post on TAM. Your situation is almost identical to the young man mentioned in the first paragraph. His WAW said almost the exact same things your wife is saying today. Almost _verbatim_. It's almost eerie. Deja vu for me. That was 9 years ago. Today this lady is still trying to find herself. The young guy is now married to someone else and has two kids. He lives a great life.

MrPack give her the time for the IC and then perhaps another MC. If she is not putting in the effort, you know what you must do.


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## Absurdist

MrPack said:


> I do not know if my wife has realized how close I am to the idea of divorce. Right now we are separated but she has given me NO indication of reconcilitation. I would think that in the back of her mind she knows that divorce is likely. That will be the next topic of conversation next time we schedule a talk.
> 
> When we first married 6 years ago we both wanted to eventually start a family. She was finishing her undergrad at the local university as was I and both planned normal 9-5 jobs. Then as years passed she kept changing her major, finally graduated and decided she wanted to go into the medical field. Yes I agreed to this but it took almost 3 years for her to figure out what type of medical field she wanted to get into. During these 3 years she drastically changed her outlook on OUR future as far as having kids. She kept pushing it further and further out. Then med school started and she changed even more and now we are here. I have a passion in my heard to be a father and she knows that. This is a big aspect of guilt she has and a big reason why our mariage is in shambles. She literally doesnt have it in her heart anymore to graduate and start a family. She wants to leave the country and help total strangers which is fine but yea she's ditching me and our marriage for that dream. I may have pressured her a little about having kids but not very often because it would always turn into a fight or her getting mad and making me feel guilty for bringing the subject up.
> 
> I have a goal of having a serious talk with her within the next couple weeks after her finals are over but seriously the last 2 talks we've had gave me no hope for our marriage. She is basically pushing me to the side right now so she can live her life not have to worry or feel guilty about her husband sitting at home taking care of everything. We have an english bulldog who has been our daughter for the past 6 years we both have treated this dog as a freakin human better than a human and she has not asked about our dog once since we've been separated. This dog has been my life line through all of this so I'm sort of glad she isnt asking about her or wanting to take her. She is compartmenalizing our whole life right now because she is too weak or scared to face what is really going on.


MrPack - this is your post #171. It was exactly one month ago. Not much has changed in a month. Not much will change next month, or the month thereafter....

I know you enjoyed your weekend but... get your azz out of the house. You need to be around people. Keep contact with your wife to an absolute minimum. If she sends you funky little texts don't respond to them.

You may want to consider ending payment for the cell phone (unless you want to continue to monitor her texts), the car insurance or anything else you are paying for. If she wants separation you need to make it real. Don't do this to be vindictive but to drive home what separation really means.

By the way, did she wear her wedding ring at MC? Did you wear yours?


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## MrPack

Chaparral said:


> She has time for Bartender Bob but not you. She just bought herself two more weeks to string you along.
> 
> Who is going on the kayak trip with her?
> 
> Nothing you've written about her indicates she is the one that can share your life and dreams.
> 
> Are you putting the things you are now doing on Facebook?


I dont know exactly who is going kayaking but she said some of her study group members.

What do you mean things I am doing on facebook? Like just my everyday activities with my friends? If thats the case then yea I guess I am, I'm not very big on posting alot on facebook but I have uploaded a few new photos recently of myself with friends and my english bulldog lol.


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## Chaparral

She was saying your boring now shes going kayaking.

I hate to keep harping on it but i cant remember one time in thousands of threads that the quantity of texts to bartender boy didnt indicate an affair.

Has the texting pattern changed?


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## MrPack

Absurdist said:


> MrPack - this is your post #171. It was exactly one month ago. Not much has changed in a month. Not much will change next month, or the month thereafter....
> 
> I know you enjoyed your weekend but... get your azz out of the house. You need to be around people. Keep contact with your wife to an absolute minimum. If she sends you funky little texts don't respond to them.
> 
> You may want to consider ending payment for the cell phone (unless you want to continue to monitor her texts), the car insurance or anything else you are paying for. If she wants separation you need to make it real. Don't do this to be vindictive but to drive home what separation really means.
> 
> By the way, did she wear her wedding ring at MC? Did you wear yours?


Neither of us we wering our rings. I know I need to get out of the hosue and be around people, I'm working on that. As for the cell phone and the car insurance that I"m still paying for yes I need to really think about cutting that off.


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## MrPack

Thanks everyone for the advice and thoughts. I didnt get much sleep last night but I made it to work and I'm actually somewhat okay today considering what went on last night. I just had a nice talk with an old co worker who has been through divorce actually a very similar situation and he is basically saying the same things you all are saying. I plan to attack the 180 at this point and concentrate on myself. I know I'll still have good days and bad days but I know I can get through this. It's just hard watching her make time for all these activiites, other people and extra hours at the school/work but no time for Mrpack. 

Still no talks yet about the bartender text guy, but here's a whopper. I checked the phone log this morning and guess what...within minutes of leaving the MC session there were text messages going on between her and the bartender F***head. I'm getting played, I need to man up and start the process of regaining my hapiness. They may be small steps but I'm abotu ready to move forward. I'd like to wait and see what comes of her IC session in two weeks but I will not contact her.


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## honcho

MrPack said:


> Thanks everyone for the advice and thoughts. I didnt get much sleep last night but I made it to work and I'm actually somewhat okay today considering what went on last night. I just had a nice talk with an old co worker who has been through divorce actually a very similar situation and he is basically saying the same things you all are saying. I plan to attack the 180 at this point and concentrate on myself. I know I'll still have good days and bad days but I know I can get through this. It's just hard watching her make time for all these activiites, other people and extra hours at the school/work but no time for Mrpack.
> 
> Still no talks yet about the bartender text guy, but here's a whopper. I checked the phone log this morning and guess what...within minutes of leaving the MC session there were text messages going on between her and the bartender F***head. I'm getting played, I need to man up and start the process of regaining my hapiness. They may be small steps but I'm abotu ready to move forward. I'd like to wait and see what comes of her IC session in two weeks but I will not contact her.


Do you think the bartender has interesting stumulating conversation? This was one of her criteria in "Mr perfect", well at least she says that in MC because it sounds good. 

Your wife is trying to chase happiness, not be happy. She isn't looking at herself. A great deal of what she at MC is rhetorical and that isn't unusual, it rare that the first MC appointment would "dig deep" into anything.

Your spouse seems like a person who will never be content. She will always tell herself there must be something better and will reinvent herself every few years.


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## LongWalk

Mr Pack,

When your thread began there were alarmists, myself among them, who started shouting watch out she's cheating. That element you denied. And it may not have begun precisely when she split. If she were honest in MC, she would probably say that she lost attraction towards you and began fantasizing about other men both as sex partners and romantic companions. She knows that you are a trustworthy, loyal, generous person and she hates the idea of losing that. Rekindling your sex life would have created some hope, but she doesn't want your fingers in her kayak anymore. The idea of you rocking seems alien and intrusive, although if she had some great problem she would be on the phone looking for support. 

She may not even wish to have anything with Bob other than an EA and PA but without any future, for the simple reason that she wants more than men IRL have to offer. In her mind she will be mending poor children in Darfur – their big eyes you know from the posters – and a Médecins Sans Frontières doctor with accent will fall in love with her because she is noble (and sexy).

Waiting for more MC is not going to turn you into the intellectual woodsman. Just cut off the money and divorce her.


If you work out and appear on Facebook socializing with attractive people, she may become jealous and seek interaction, but why would want some lukewarm coffee dates with her 5 months from now when you rebuilt you life?


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## phillybeffandswiss

MrPack said:


> Once the counselor started giving his suggestions, one of which was for us to try and have dinner together at the house a couple times within the next month she started to change. Her posture changed, she started to tear up, she literally went pale and had the same look on her face like she did the night she asked for the separation. She was in such obvious emotional distress that the counselor asked if she was okay. She looked up with tears in her eyes and said that this was all so overwhelming and she doesn't know how much more she has inside of her to give towards our marriage.


Seriously, read some other threads. It'll hurt, but you'll see your wife is following the cheater script. 

Also, don't believe the garbage. Yes people grow, but it is funny how many couples can stick through the changes and do it together. No, don't let her use that excuse at all. 

One more, "father figure" is code for no fun IMO.


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## MrPack

Philly... Yea I've been thinking a lot today about some of the crap she said last night. A lot of it was BS in my opinion. It's starting to become completely clear that she checked out a long time ago and seeming more and more like she is totally done but to scared to make the move herself, waiting for me to do it. Or she's not making the move because she knows I'm still paying for the phone and car insurance. 

It's weird when I'm around her like last night at MC I just become strong, she is the one who always cries and acts like the victim. But when I'm alone I break... I'm glad it's that way because no way in hell do I want her seeing me when I'm feeling weak.


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## MrPack

Longwalk, 

I'm starting to see your points and slowly accepting those aspects of this whole situation. I know I am a way stronger man than I was at the start of this separation but I'm still trying to wrap my head around all of this.


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## phillybeffandswiss

I have a question, when you both talked, did you tell her when you felt the marriage started falling apart?


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## honcho

MrPack said:


> Philly... Yea I've been thinking a lot today about some of the crap she said last night. A lot of it was BS in my opinion. It's starting to become completely clear that she checked out a long time ago and seeming more and more like she is totally done but to scared to make the move herself, waiting for me to do it. Or she's not making the move because she knows I'm still paying for the phone and car insurance.
> 
> It's weird when I'm around her like last night at MC I just become strong, she is the one who always cries and acts like the victim. But when I'm alone I break... I'm glad it's that way because no way in hell do I want her seeing me when I'm feeling weak.


She probably won't make the move herself because that's a commitment and she does has commitment issues. She gets a degree, then changes to a different major, she wants kids later doesn't want kids, she married you and now wants freedom. She attended the MC but then feels bad realizing it may actually take some effort to repair marriage. 

You are a security blanket for her, I don't think it is as much she checked out long ago as she was never fully in.


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## Pluto2

She wants her freedom, then let her feel what "freedom" is like. Cut off the money (talk to an attorney first about how far that can go), cut off the communication, cut off the support. Remove yourself from her world. That is the freedom she thinks she wants. 

Why do I think if this happens she will suddenly start crying about how she's been abandoned. In her mind, life happens to her-allowing her to claim she's a victim. She's not. She is a grown woman, so start making her act like one. If she has any intention of actually working on the marriage, she will then say this is not what she wants. If you hear nothing from her after the cut-off, well Mr. P. sadly, then you have all the confirmation you are likely to get that the marriage is done. 

Even more sadly, many of us do not think you need any more confirmation. Either way, you are going to be ok. Really.


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## MrPack

phillybeffandswiss said:


> I have a question, when you both talked, did you tell her when you felt the marriage started falling apart?


I've told her that I felt a change within the past couple years, she says it started 3 years ago.


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## phillybeffandswiss

MrPack said:


> I've told her that I felt a change within the past couple years, she says it started 3 years ago.


Let me guess, you told her first correct?


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## Absurdist

Pluto2 said:


> She wants her freedom, then let her feel what "freedom" is like. Cut off the money (talk to an attorney first about how far that can go), cut off the communication, cut off the support. Remove yourself from her world. That is the freedom she thinks she wants.
> 
> Why do I think if this happens she will suddenly start crying about how she's been abandoned. In her mind, life happens to her-allowing her to claim she's a victim. She's not. She is a grown woman, so start making her act like one. If she has any intention of actually working on the marriage, she will then say this is not what she wants. If you hear nothing from her after the cut-off, well Mr. P. sadly, then you have all the confirmation you are likely to get that the marriage is done.
> 
> Even more sadly, many of us do not think you need any more confirmation. Either way, you are going to be ok. Really.


MrPack I just wanted to highlight Pluto2's post. She is dead on. She ought to know. If you read her threads she has been to h3ll and back. She knows what she's talking about.

Don't you find it amazing that I, Honcho, FarSide, Pluto2, Philly, Chap and LongWalk are all really saying the same things? The vernacular and syntax may be different but all of us have reached the same conclusions.

Just a few minutes ago I was talking to four young ladies in my office (two of them very, very pretty). All of them are single. I'm their boss. I told them I know of a guy who is 32, has a good job and is very responsible. All of them said they would melt like butter to meet such a person. I only mention this because I think you sell yourself short. There are plenty of good women looking for commitment. I'm not pushing divorce here. That's not my point. I'm just saying there is a lot about MrPack that women would find very attractive.

MrPack your wife is out chasing rainbows and unicorns. She thinks these things will make her happy but, alas for her, she will never find peace and contentment. She doesn't know what she already has. She thinks life is "out there" somewhere when it is actually right in front of her. Sad really.


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## MrPack

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Let me guess, you told her first correct?


Well it's hard to say really. The night she came home and approached me about a separation that was the talk where I said I wasnt completely happy for the past 2 years but I wasnt ready to give up like she was. And now that I think about it she has just recently started saying 3 years. Either way it doesnt really matter in my mind considering all the other key signs she's showing.


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## MrPack

Absurdist said:


> MrPack I just wanted to highlight Pluto2's post. She is dead on. She ought to know. If you read her threads she has been to h3ll and back. She knows what she's talking about.
> 
> Don't you find it amazing that I, Honcho, FarSide, Pluto2, Philly, Chap and LongWalk are all really saying the same things? The vernacular and syntax may be different but all of us have reached the same conclusions.
> 
> Just a few minutes ago I was talking to four young ladies in my office (two of them very, very pretty). All of them are single. I'm their boss. I told them I know of a guy who is 32, has a good job and is very responsible. All of them said they would melt like butter to meet such a person. I only mention this because I think you sell yourself short. There are plenty of good women looking for commitment. I'm not pushing divorce here. That's not my point. I'm just saying there is a lot about MrPack that women would find very attractive.
> 
> MrPack your wife is out chasing rainbows and unicorns. She thinks these things will make her happy but, alas for her, she will never find peace and contentment. She doesn't know what she already has. She thinks life is "out there" somewhere when it is actually right in front of her. Sad really.


Thank you sir, send your women employees my way!! haha I'm jk, we all know I'm not ready yet for anyone. 

I guess my biggest concern is how I will meet other women whenever I am ready. I've been out of the scene for over 10 years, things have changed a lot. But I can also be realistic and understand that it'll take time which is good...no need to rush anything. I feel like I'm just barely scratching the surface of finding MYSELF again and being okay with MYSELF, I'll get there I know I will. It's just a matter of how long it'll take.


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## farsidejunky

MrPack said:


> Thank you sir, send your women employees my way!! haha I'm jk, we all know I'm not ready yet for anyone.
> 
> I guess my biggest concern is how I will meet other women whenever I am ready. I've been out of the scene for over 10 years, things have changed a lot. But I can also be realistic and understand that it'll take time which is good...no need to rush anything. I feel like I'm just barely scratching the surface of finding MYSELF again and being okay with MYSELF, I'll get there I know I will. It's just a matter of how long it'll take.


You can start by doing a true 180 and begin the process of divorce.

At this point it can be up to her to stop it.

But she wont.


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## phillybeffandswiss

MrPack said:


> And now that I think about it she has just recently started saying 3 years.


Man or woman says, "I noticed things changing here" and almost always the cheater says they were unhappy longer. I don't want you falling down the guilt rabbit hole of "gee maybe If I ......"


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## MrPack

Wife text me this evening letting me know she is taking her car off our car insurance plan and getting her own also said she will start to deposit money in my account to pay for half the cell phone bill. Hey that all sounds good to me. I was getting ready to approach that subject but she beat me to it. Next is getting our own cell accounts but right now it's cheaper on the family plan. I need to do some research/pricing.

I have a question for you all. Sunday is her 30th bday, do I send her a happy bday text or not?


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## farsidejunky

MrPack said:


> Wife text me this evening letting me know she is taking her car off our car insurance plan and getting her own also said she will start to deposit money in my account to pay for half the cell phone bill. Hey that all sounds good to me. I was getting ready to approach that subject but she beat me to it. Next is getting our own cell accounts but right now it's cheaper on the family plan. I need to do some research/pricing.
> 
> I have a question for you all. Sunday is her 30th bday, do I send her a happy bday text or not?


No.

Pack, IT IS OVER.

Let her go, brother.


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## Absurdist

MrPack said:


> Wife text me this evening letting me know she is taking her car off our car insurance plan and getting her own also said she will start to deposit money in my account to pay for half the cell phone bill. Hey that all sounds good to me. I was getting ready to approach that subject but she beat me to it. Next is getting our own cell accounts but right now it's cheaper on the family plan. I need to do some research/pricing.
> 
> I have a question for you all. Sunday is her 30th bday, do I send her a happy bday text or not?


Nope. Let her wonder why. You want to send a message right?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MrPack

Yes I want to send a message... I'm tired of treading water fighting to keep my head up... I removed her mom and some of her cousins from my Facebook today. Part of me is ready now to move on the other part is still grieving trying to wrap my brain around all of this. I did so much for her or at least I thought I did and it got me nowhere. I sacrificed so much to provide for her while she "decided" what she wanted to do with her life. I'm left with a big house I can barely afford, debt, a confused mind and anger. I know I'll grow from this and be okay but wow this is rough.


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## farsidejunky

MrPack said:


> Yes I want to send a message... I'm tired of treading water fighting to keep my head up... I removed her mom and some of her cousins from my Facebook today. Part of me is ready now to move on the other part is still grieving trying to wrap my brain around all of this. I did so much for her or at least I thought I did and it got me nowhere. I sacrificed so much to provide for her while she "decided" what she wanted to do with her life. I'm left with a big house I can barely afford, debt, a confused mind and anger. I know I'll grow from this and be okay but wow this is rough.


Brother, my first wife walked away. I was left with a ton of questions. None of them got answered, and in the end, the answers would not have really helped my healing. All they would have done is further allow me to sit in the victim chair, which is where you are currently.

Why does not matter. It is. Accept it. Move on. 

You want an answer to something? Find out why you are willing to settle for someone giving you scraps so you can feel accomplished in trying to save a marriage in name only.

LET HER GO.


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## honcho

MrPack said:


> Wife text me this evening letting me know she is taking her car off our car insurance plan and getting her own also said she will start to deposit money in my account to pay for half the cell phone bill. Hey that all sounds good to me. I was getting ready to approach that subject but she beat me to it. Next is getting our own cell accounts but right now it's cheaper on the family plan. I need to do some research/pricing.
> 
> I have a question for you all. Sunday is her 30th bday, do I send her a happy bday text or not?


No,no,no on the birthday card or text.

Now fiscal talk, your married and no papers have been filed so do not just remove her from the car insurance. Once divorce papers have been filed put in temp order she is responsible for expenses for that car. Then remove car from plan.

If you remove the car she doesn't get insuracne you are liable if she has an accident. My stbx said similar she never got insurance and totaled her car. People tried chasing me for the accident damages but having the temp order written specifically that she was responsible for vehicle insurance/expenses kept me out of potential big bills.


----------



## Absurdist

MrPack said:


> Yes I want to send a message... I'm tired of treading water fighting to keep my head up... I removed her mom and some of her cousins from my Facebook today. Part of me is ready now to move on the other part is still grieving trying to wrap my brain around all of this. I did so much for her or at least I thought I did and it got me nowhere. I sacrificed so much to provide for her while she "decided" what she wanted to do with her life. I'm left with a big house I can barely afford, debt, a confused mind and anger. I know I'll grow from this and be okay but wow this is rough.


Listen to Farside. Tough love but he has your best interests at heart.

Any other debt other than the mortgage on the house? Get it cleaned up and put the thing on the market. Do you think it's underwater? Are you in a buyers or sellers market?

MrsAbsurdist is sitting here watching me type this on my iPhone. She says "if only MrPack lived here. I could introduce him to so many pretty nurses". Heck you and the bulldog may need to move in with me. She would get you engaged before the first Duke game. We could go to Cameron Indoor together 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## honcho

Absurdist said:


> Listen to Farside. Tough love but he has your best interests at heart.
> 
> Any other debt other than the mortgage on the house? Get it cleaned up and put the thing on the market. Do you think it's underwater? Are you in a buyers or sellers market?
> 
> MrsAbsurdist is sitting here watching me type this on my iPhone. She says "if only MrPack lived here. I could introduce him to so many pretty nurses". Heck you and the bulldog may need to move in with me. She would get you engaged before the first Duke game. We could go to Cameron Indoor together
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Any of those nurses willing to travel >


----------



## Pluto2

Absurdist said:


> Listen to Farside. Tough love but he has your best interests at heart.
> 
> Any other debt other than the mortgage on the house? Get it cleaned up and put the thing on the market. Do you think it's underwater? Are you in a buyers or sellers market?
> 
> MrsAbsurdist is sitting here watching me type this on my iPhone. She says "if only MrPack lived here. I could introduce him to so many pretty nurses". Heck you and the bulldog may need to move in with me. She would get you engaged before the first Duke game. We could go to Cameron Indoor together
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


WARNING Thread Jack (but very small)
@Absurdist I'm a Cameron Crazy, too! I've admitted my age too many times on this board, so I'll say I was a student at Duke when Coach K first came, and I met him the morning of his first Duke-Carolina game. Love my Blue Devils and can't wait for the Countdown to Craziness.
END of Thread Jack.

Mr. P. why would you send a birthday greeting? In hopes of her appreciating the gesture and returning to the marriage? Is that reasonable? The 180 is to help you detach and become stronger and that won't happen when your focus is always on her. Focus on you.


----------



## MrPack

honcho said:


> No,no,no on the birthday card or text.
> 
> Now fiscal talk, your married and no papers have been filed so do not just remove her from the car insurance. Once divorce papers have been filed put in temp order she is responsible for expenses for that car. Then remove car from plan.
> 
> If you remove the car she doesn't get insuracne you are liable if she has an accident. My stbx said similar she never got insurance and totaled her car. People tried chasing me for the accident damages but having the temp order written specifically that she was responsible for vehicle insurance/expenses kept me out of potential big bills.


I'm not removing her, both our names are on the car insurance plan. She decided on her own that next week she is removing her car from our plan and switching to Geico (ya I know sounds like the commercial). This was her idea, she's doing it on her own. There is no way in h3ll she would take her car off the plan and not get insurance.


----------



## farsidejunky

So you choose to discuss the semantics of the insurance as opposed to what you are trying to do to move forward?

Pack...


----------



## MrPack

Absurdist said:


> Listen to Farside. Tough love but he has your best interests at heart.
> 
> Any other debt other than the mortgage on the house? Get it cleaned up and put the thing on the market. Do you think it's underwater? Are you in a buyers or sellers market?
> 
> MrsAbsurdist is sitting here watching me type this on my iPhone. She says "if only MrPack lived here. I could introduce him to so many pretty nurses". Heck you and the bulldog may need to move in with me. She would get you engaged before the first Duke game. We could go to Cameron Indoor together
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The other debt I have is my own student loan debt, as for the house I am not upside down. I've done some research and I will be making money when I sell..not a ton but a fairly decent amount. I would say we are in a buyers market especially my area, lots and lots of young families and new schools. Very desirable area, houses go quick.

HAHAHA that does sound nice although I must admit I'm a Wisconsin Badgers fan even though I moved across the country when I was a kid. Oh and I should also throw this out there...I am a HUGE Packer fan...GO PACK GO!


----------



## MrPack

farsidejunky said:


> So you choose to discuss the semantics of the insurance as opposed to what you are trying to do to move forward?
> 
> Pack...


I'm not understanding what you mean?


----------



## MrPack

farsidejunky said:


> Brother, my first wife walked away. I was left with a ton of questions. None of them got answered, and in the end, the answers would not have really helped my healing. All they would have done is further allow me to sit in the victim chair, which is where you are currently.
> 
> Why does not matter. It is. Accept it. Move on.
> 
> You want an answer to something? Find out why you are willing to settle for someone giving you scraps so you can feel accomplished in trying to save a marriage in name only.
> 
> LET HER GO.


After last nights texts about car insurance and cell phone bills I"m starting to accept the fact that this is looking like it is truly over. Just a matter of time until I get the courage to file. It's weird I havent felt "sad" at all the past couple days just angry and annoyed. Moving along through the stages of grief I guess. 

Thank you for sharing what you went though. It is hard to just sit back sometimes and think about all the time and energy I invested with one person for so long and now all the sudden its gone.


----------



## MrPack

MrPack said:


> I'm not understanding what you mean?


Moving forward...thats still hard to swallow. I plan to hit the gym hard starting next week, getting my house ready to put on the market and just doign things for me. 

I am ready to totally put on the 180, more ready than I've ever been throughout all of this. 

Baby steps I guess...


----------



## farsidejunky

MrPack said:


> Moving forward...thats still hard to swallow. I plan to hit the gym hard starting next week, getting my house ready to put on the market and just doign things for me.
> 
> I am ready to totally put on the 180, more ready than I've ever been throughout all of this.
> 
> Baby steps I guess...


"Being ready" and actually "doing" are two entirely different things. 

You are still dragging your feet.

Thinking about it=isn't.


----------



## Pluto2

MrPack said:


> The other debt I have is my own student loan debt, as for the house I am not upside down. I've done some research and I will be making money when I sell..not a ton but a fairly decent amount. I would say we are in a buyers market especially my area, lots and lots of young families and new schools. Very desirable area, houses go quick.
> 
> HAHAHA that does sound nice although I must admit I'm a Wisconsin Badgers fan even though I moved across the country when I was a kid. Oh and I should also throw this out there...I am a HUGE Packer fan...GO PACK GO!


Such a cheesehead!
(And I can say that with relatives up in Sheboygan)


----------



## LongWalk

Mr Pack, I read Jerry Kramer's auto biography when I was boy, so there are Packers fans everywhere. 

As I mentioned at the beginning, I am rooting for reconciliation with your wife if it is possible and you now understand that you have to push the divorce to have any chance of reconciliation. Only losing you will perhaps change her thinking. It is really quite simple at this point. She has to feel that you are dumping her. You have to go dark on her. Leave her life completely. The chances are she is already gone. However, if you file for divorce and cut off painful contact with her. No more nice guy still there for her. It is possible that after a bad relationship she will want you back. But the chances are somewhere around 8 percent.

Women act on their feelings, which instinctual. An apparently careful together and careful woman may go for a ONS with a guy who she knows just wants to fvck her. She accepts this an adventure. Generally women have an instinct to avoid promiscuity. They want their sex partners to fall in love with them and offer stability. The formula is in romantic fiction. It all makes perfect sense from an evolutionary point of view. You can still be an exciting man to your WAW/WW. However, she has to rewrite history again. You work out and get a promotion. She learns this. Your sex ranking rises. You date OW whom she considers pretty. Your sex rank rises. But honestly why would you stake your happiness on this maybe?

If you won the lottery, would she suddenly find you attractive again? She doesn't even have to think of herself as being mercenary. Human
s rationalize all sorts of stuff.

Remember, if you have a job and you stand up straight, there are women who will want to date you. If you listen carefully, laugh and have sense of humor, they will want to spend time with you. It's not an amazing miracle that men and women hook up and/or get into relationships.


----------



## MrPack

LongWalk said:


> Mr Pack, I read Jerry Kramer's auto biography when I was boy, so there are Packers fans everywhere.
> 
> As I mentioned at the beginning, I am rooting for reconciliation with your wife if it is possible and you now understand that you have to push the divorce to have any chance of reconciliation. Only losing you will perhaps change her thinking. It is really quite simple at this point. She has to feel that you are dumping her. You have to go dark on her. Leave her life completely. The chances are she is already gone. However, if you file for divorce and cut off painful contact with her. No more nice guy still there for her. It is possible that after a bad relationship she will want you back. But the chances are somewhere around 8 percent.
> 
> Women act on their feelings, which instinctual. An apparently careful together and careful woman may go for a ONS with a guy who she knows just wants to fvck her. She accepts this an adventure. Generally women have an instinct to avoid promiscuity. They want their sex partners to fall in love with them and offer stability. The formula is in romantic fiction. It all makes perfect sense from an evolutionary point of view. You can still be an exciting man to your WAW/WW. However, she has to rewrite history again. You work out and get a promotion. She learns this. Your sex ranking rises. You date OW whom she considers pretty. Your sex rank rises. But honestly why would you stake your happiness on this maybe?
> 
> If you won the lottery, would she suddenly find you attractive again? She doesn't even have to think of herself as being mercenary. Human
> s rationalize all sorts of stuff.
> 
> Remember, if you have a job and you stand up straight, there are women who will want to date you. If you listen carefully, laugh and have sense of humor, they will want to spend time with you. It's not an amazing miracle that men and women hook up and/or get into relationships.


Well about a month before we separated I interviewed for a big promotion and got it. A week before we separated I received an award for a proposal I worked on. My wife was very excited for me but apparently that wasnt too big a factor for her in the sense of leaving me. Since then I've been rocking it at work, except for a couple weeks while I was wallowing in my sorrows at the start of our separation. My boss is on travel this week and she gave me signature authority and left me in charge as her backup. I'm feeling great at work, grew a beard, I've lost weight,l gotten in better shape than I have been in years. My wife told me at the wedding up north a month ago that I looked great but that wasnt enough either. She has a lot going on in her head, I think at some point recently she sort of lost it, she's different now. It would take A LOT of change in her for me to conisder a R. I dont think she has the energy or want to make the changes. H3ll she doesnt even know what those changes are and she's already signaling that she cant find the time or energy to take small steps towards R.


----------



## MrPack

farsidejunky said:


> "Being ready" and actually "doing" are two entirely different things.
> 
> You are still dragging your feet.
> 
> Thinking about it=isn't.


Besides going dark doing the full 180, what else should I be doing in regards to really moving on with my life...yes I konw filling is one big step and I'll get there just not at the moment.


----------



## farsidejunky

MrPack said:


> Besides going dark doing the full 180, what else should I be doing in regards to really moving on with my life...yes I konw filling is one big step and I'll get there just not at the moment.


What do you need to have answered to be decisive about this?


----------



## Chaparral

Get the MMSLP book linked to below.

If your wife wasnt sure what she wanted when she left, she knows she wants bartender Bob for the present. She knows she isnt oming back or there would be no reason to separate insurance and cell bill.

I would send her a text and tell her by dating bartender Bob there is no reason for anymore marriage counseling and you wish her a happy life.

From your description she has pingponged her whole life with you. She just isnt marriage material. I will bet she does have kids someday and they will all be like that.


----------



## farsidejunky

No.

She wanted a separation. Stopping the potential meeting of any emotional needs commences the moment she walks.

That is not being vindictive. It is showing consequences for her choice as well as allowing Pack to successfully begin detaching.


----------



## Chaparral

Bugged said:


> oh c'mon a text with happy birthday..it's just common courtesy...


He couLd send her a gift card to bartender Bob's bar.


----------



## Marduk

MrPack said:


> Moving forward...thats still hard to swallow. I plan to hit the gym hard starting next week, getting my house ready to put on the market and just doign things for me.
> 
> I am ready to totally put on the 180, more ready than I've ever been throughout all of this.
> 
> Baby steps I guess...


Begin here:

When you think about contacting her or responding to her attempts to contact you, don't.

Do something else that is positive for you instead.


----------



## MrPack

I think I'm also going to look into IC for myself, not with the same MC that I've been seeing recently though. Do you think that would benefit my healing and moving on process?
I feel like I have my own issues outside of our marriage issues that I need to address. Childhood stuff and self confidence issues.


----------



## farsidejunky

Do it. And find one that will challenge you. 

I had one that liked to reflect what I was saying, and would sit in silence when I had nothing.

I was effectively paying him to tell me what I was telling him.

Useless.


----------



## honcho

Pluto2 said:


> Such a cheesehead!
> (And I can say that with relatives up in Sheboygan)


I was in sheboygan today. Bratfest is next weekend, come one come all :grin2:


----------



## MrPack

The fact that my wife contacted me yesterday about getting her own insurance and paying half if the cell bill. Why do you think all the sudden she decided to do this? Is one more signal she's throwing my way that she's done? I think it is. 

Heck I wouldn't be surprised if she made some excuse and missed her IC session in a couple weeks.


----------



## MrPack

farsidejunky said:


> Do it. And find one that will challenge you.
> 
> I had one that liked to reflect what I was saying, and would sit in silence when I had nothing.
> 
> I was effectively paying him to tell me what I was telling him.
> 
> Useless.


Yea I have been seeing a nurse practitioner for my anxiety meds for a while now, she also likes to talk about herself instead of my issues. I'm thinking of asking her for referrals for an IC counselor. Not really sure how else to find one other than looking on line and picking one.


----------



## Absurdist

MrPack said:


> The fact that my wife contacted me yesterday about getting her own insurance and paying half if the cell bill. Why do you think all the sudden she decided to do this? Is one more signal she's throwing my way that she's done? I think it is.
> 
> Heck I wouldn't be surprised if she made some excuse and missed her IC session in a couple weeks.


She's running away as fast as she can.

And definitely yes to the IC for you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

The amount of texts your describing to the bartender is indicative of a full on affair.

Your just dancing around the obvious.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

MrPack said:


> The fact that my wife contacted me yesterday about getting her own insurance and paying half if the cell bill. Why do you think all the sudden she decided to do this? Is one more signal she's throwing my way that she's done? I think it is.
> 
> Heck I wouldn't be surprised if she made some excuse and missed her IC session in a couple weeks.


I'd take her MC/IC money and hire a PI. At least it will be a waste of money that benefits you. 


In other words, stop wasting money and get a divorce. She is stringing you along IMO.


----------



## MrPack

Chaparral said:


> The amount of texts your describing to the bartender is indicative of a full on affair.
> 
> Your just dancing around the obvious.


Why wont she admit to it? If she wants out so bad which I think she does than why wont she admit to whatever type of affair she is having with DumbA$$ bartender guy?


----------



## farsidejunky

MrPack said:


> Why wont she admit to it? If she wants out so bad which I think she does than why wont she admit to whatever type of affair she is having with DumbA$$ bartender guy?


She has no courage. No stomach to end it. Because the sky is up and the ground is down.

Does it matter?

The more important question to ask is why you think so little of yourself that you will cling desperately to a woman who holds you in such little regard. Do you not feel that you deserve better?


----------



## Pluto2

farsidejunky said:


> The more important question to ask is why you think so little of yourself that you will cling desperately to a woman who holds you in such little regard. Do you not feel that you deserve better?


I hope you realize that we all believe you are worth far more than you are getting out of your relationship.


----------



## MrPack

Pluto and Farside, 
I do know I'm worth way more than the W is giving me. I'm not hanging on to anything, it's clear that this marriage is over. Maybe I should stop worrying about what she thinks, says or does.

I sent her a text today saying that I needed her to clean out her office at the house within the next 2 weeks as I am getting things ready to sell the house. She was okay with that and said she would pack up other stuff of hers. She then brought up the subject of who gets what, I told her the two main things I want are the new flat screen TV that was given to me as an xmas gift and the leather sectional couch I have in my "man room". She made some stupid joke with her reply saying "nope all you get is the bathroom rug and the toilet paper". She wasnt serious, she was trying to be funny. It made me mad that she acts like this is no big deal. Yea I'm not sitting here all sad and crying about this anymore but still this is a big deal and she puts on this front like everything is A okay. Really frustrates me but like I said I guess I need to stop caring about how she acts or what she says. None of that really matters anymore. 

So here we go, wish me luck...I really hope splitting things up at the house can go as smooth as possible but who knows. Should be a weird next couple weeks. I'm taking boxes home from work today, I'm going to pack up all the pictures hanging up in our house of the two of us or her family and tell her she can have them if she wants otherwise there going in the trash.


----------



## farsidejunky

MrPack said:


> Pluto and Farside,
> I do know I'm worth way more than the W is giving me. I'm not hanging on to anything, it's clear that this marriage is over. Maybe I should stop worrying about what she thinks, says or does.
> 
> I sent her a text today saying that I needed her to clean out her office at the house within the next 2 weeks as I am getting things ready to sell the house. She was okay with that and said she would pack up other stuff of hers. She then brought up the subject of who gets what, I told her the two main things I want are the new flat screen TV that was given to me as an xmas gift and the leather sectional couch I have in my "man room". She made some stupid joke with her reply saying "nope all you get is the bathroom rug and the toilet paper". She wasnt serious, she was trying to be funny. It made me mad that she acts like this is no big deal. Yea I'm not sitting here all sad and crying about this anymore but still this is a big deal and she puts on this front like everything is A okay. Really frustrates me but like I said I guess I need to stop caring about how she acts or what she says. None of that really matters anymore.
> 
> So here we go, wish me luck...I really hope splitting things up at the house can go as smooth as possible but who knows. Should be a weird next couple weeks. I'm taking boxes home from work today, I'm going to pack up all the pictures hanging up in our house of the two of us or her family and tell her she can have them if she wants otherwise there going in the trash.


She is hiding, Pack. Hiding from herself and from you. And you can't fix it. She can't either unless she wants to. And we see that isn't going to happen.

I understand the hurt. When my wife walked on me, I did not have TAM. I immersed myself in expensive alcohol and cheap sex. I dealt with it by hiding. Which is what she is doing. It took me over 10 years of hiding before I really pulled my head out of my @$$, which was at the beginning of last year.

She wants freedom. Give it to her. In two years, provided you do this in a healthy way, you will be thankful for the blessing life has given you.

In the meantime you need to do your best to be like Spock in her presence. Not happy, sad or anywhere in between. Keep things short and business like. Consult an attorney ASAP and file.


----------



## Marduk

MrPack said:


> Pluto and Farside,
> I do know I'm worth way more than the W is giving me. I'm not hanging on to anything, it's clear that this marriage is over. Maybe I should stop worrying about what she thinks, says or does.
> 
> I sent her a text today saying that I needed her to clean out her office at the house within the next 2 weeks as I am getting things ready to sell the house. She was okay with that and said she would pack up other stuff of hers. She then brought up the subject of who gets what, I told her the two main things I want are the new flat screen TV that was given to me as an xmas gift and the leather sectional couch I have in my "man room". She made some stupid joke with her reply saying "nope all you get is the bathroom rug and the toilet paper". She wasnt serious, she was trying to be funny. It made me mad that she acts like this is no big deal. Yea I'm not sitting here all sad and crying about this anymore but still this is a big deal and she puts on this front like everything is A okay. Really frustrates me but like I said I guess I need to stop caring about how she acts or what she says. None of that really matters anymore.
> 
> So here we go, wish me luck...I really hope splitting things up at the house can go as smooth as possible but who knows. Should be a weird next couple weeks. I'm taking boxes home from work today, I'm going to pack up all the pictures hanging up in our house of the two of us or her family and tell her she can have them if she wants otherwise there going in the trash.


Don't be surprised by this. She checked out a long, long time ago.

You're just behind the curve.

What she wants you to do is laugh and be light about it to relieve whatever little nagging guilt she has.

Pretend she doesn't exist, except when you can't.


----------



## honcho

MrPack said:


> Why wont she admit to it? If she wants out so bad which I think she does than why wont she admit to whatever type of affair she is having with DumbA$$ bartender guy?


Your view and perception of her would change forever if she admitted. She doesn't want that. In many many affairs the OM/OW is a downgrade, in MC she was still saying your a "great guy". Your wife is the type that won't own her decisions. 

She will joke around and you will probably see glimpses of the wife you knew when talking about separating stuff, at least in the beginning. She is getting what she wants and your playing along.


----------



## MrPack

farsidejunky said:


> MrPack said:
> 
> 
> 
> Pluto and Farside,
> I do know I'm worth way more than the W is giving me. I'm not hanging on to anything, it's clear that this marriage is over. Maybe I should stop worrying about what she thinks, says or does.
> 
> I sent her a text today saying that I needed her to clean out her office at the house within the next 2 weeks as I am getting things ready to sell the house. She was okay with that and said she would pack up other stuff of hers. She then brought up the subject of who gets what, I told her the two main things I want are the new flat screen TV that was given to me as an xmas gift and the leather sectional couch I have in my "man room". She made some stupid joke with her reply saying "nope all you get is the bathroom rug and the toilet paper". She wasnt serious, she was trying to be funny. It made me mad that she acts like this is no big deal. Yea I'm not sitting here all sad and crying about this anymore but still this is a big deal and she puts on this front like everything is A okay. Really frustrates me but like I said I guess I need to stop caring about how she acts or what she says. None of that really matters anymore.
> 
> So here we go, wish me luck...I really hope splitting things up at the house can go as smooth as possible but who knows. Should be a weird next couple weeks. I'm taking boxes home from work today, I'm going to pack up all the pictures hanging up in our house of the two of us or her family and tell her she can have them if she wants otherwise there going in the trash.
> 
> 
> 
> She is hiding, Pack. Hiding from herself and from you. And you can't fix it. She can't either unless she wants to. And we see that isn't going to happen.
> 
> I understand the hurt. When my wife walked on me, I did not have TAM. I immersed myself in expensive alcohol and cheap sex. I dealt with it by hiding. Which is what she is doing. It took me over 10 years of hiding before I really pulled my head out of my @$$, which was at the beginning of last year.
> 
> She wants freedom. Give it to her. In two years, provided you do this in a healthy way, you will be thankful for the blessing life has given you.
> 
> In the meantime you need to do your best to be like Spock in her presence. Not happy, sad or anywhere in between. Keep things short and business like. Consult an attorney ASAP and file.
Click to expand...

Thank you for your advice. I need to realize what your saying... She is hiding, I can't fix it and frankly I need to stop worrying about it. Your advice about acting like Spock makes perfect sense. I'm going to try my hardest to remember that everytime we talk or text regarding "business". She's not fooling me anymore especially if I can learn to fully let go. She needs help her mind is all over the place, hopefully one day she'll get it all figured out but I guess that's no longer my concern.


----------



## MrPack

marduk said:


> MrPack said:
> 
> 
> 
> Pluto and Farside,
> I do know I'm worth way more than the W is giving me. I'm not hanging on to anything, it's clear that this marriage is over. Maybe I should stop worrying about what she thinks, says or does.
> 
> I sent her a text today saying that I needed her to clean out her office at the house within the next 2 weeks as I am getting things ready to sell the house. She was okay with that and said she would pack up other stuff of hers. She then brought up the subject of who gets what, I told her the two main things I want are the new flat screen TV that was given to me as an xmas gift and the leather sectional couch I have in my "man room". She made some stupid joke with her reply saying "nope all you get is the bathroom rug and the toilet paper". She wasnt serious, she was trying to be funny. It made me mad that she acts like this is no big deal. Yea I'm not sitting here all sad and crying about this anymore but still this is a big deal and she puts on this front like everything is A okay. Really frustrates me but like I said I guess I need to stop caring about how she acts or what she says. None of that really matters anymore.
> 
> So here we go, wish me luck...I really hope splitting things up at the house can go as smooth as possible but who knows. Should be a weird next couple weeks. I'm taking boxes home from work today, I'm going to pack up all the pictures hanging up in our house of the two of us or her family and tell her she can have them if she wants otherwise there going in the trash.
> 
> 
> 
> Don't be surprised by this. She checked out a long, long time ago.
> 
> You're just behind the curve.
> 
> What she wants you to do is laugh and be light about it to relieve whatever little nagging guilt she has.
> 
> Pretend she doesn't exist, except when you can't.
Click to expand...

Thank you, I guess I'm not really surprised by her choice of words and making jokes but it's still weird. But I do know and I hear what you are saying, I need to back off back way off and only communicate when it's necessary and when that happens keep it short and to the point. Easy to say but I know I can do it if I keep reminding myself.


----------



## MrPack

honcho said:


> MrPack said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why wont she admit to it? If she wants out so bad which I think she does than why wont she admit to whatever type of affair she is having with DumbA$$ bartender guy?
> 
> 
> 
> Your view and perception of her would change forever if she admitted. She doesn't want that. In many many affairs the OM/OW is a downgrade, in MC she was still saying your a "great guy". Your wife is the type that won't own her decisions.
> 
> She will joke around and you will probably see glimpses of the wife you knew when talking about separating stuff, at least in the beginning. She is getting what she wants and your playing along.
Click to expand...

I hear you loud and clear. I hear all of you. I need to stop playing along and stick to business. This I am and will continue to work on as well as my tendencies to keep trying to read into her. I know I shouldn't be doing that anymore, what's the point right?


----------



## Nomorebeans

The best thing is when you catch yourself acting like Spock when she says you're a great guy, and you realize you're not acting - you really don't feel anything for her anymore.

It'll happen. I promise. You may not even realize it when it does, that's how little she will matter to you. You'll be reminded of that moment by something someone says, maybe in a thread like this one.


----------



## Archangel2

MrPack - I posted the following on a thread in the CWI section, but I think it is apropos here as well:

"Your wife strikes me as the type who does not know what she's got till it's gone. So give her what she thinks she wants. BE GONE! I hope you can successfully detach and work toward the next chapter of your life. There are many good women out there who will appreciate a good, faithful man. Please don't waste any more time on this self-entitled hypocrite." 

I hope you can find your inner strength and put this relationship behind you as soon as possible.


----------



## MrPack

I went out with a few of my good buddies last night, had a good time. I had a couple beers and some dinner then went home, it felt good to want to leave and not stay and drink all night with them like I used to. Anyway when I got home I walked through my house staring at blank walls were all our photos used to be. It was tough they are all stacked up on my kitchen table. I don't know if I have the strength yet to start taking the photos out of the frames. I just don't like looking at them.

I also told my buddies last night the latest with whats going on in my marriage. They too say that they've noticed a big change in my W the past couple years, I told them that unless I'm crazy it looks like we are preparing for divorce at this point. They all were very supportive and understanding that this is probably the best decision. Felt good knowing that my close buddies didn't seem to have any judgment towards me when I said that I'm preparing myself to file. They realize that the W is the one who gave up a while ago and that theres really nothing else I can do. They just want to see me move on and find my happiness again. 

Today is my W 30th birthday, I have not contacted her at all and don't plan on it. It will be interesting to see how many of my buddies (who were like brothers to her for many years) actually wish her a happy birthday on facebook today. Yes I know I shouldn't even worry or care about something like that but I am interested. Anyway just wanted to check in, I hope everyone is having a good weekend.


----------



## honcho

MrPack said:


> I went out with a few of my good buddies last night, had a good time. I had a couple beers and some dinner then went home, it felt good to want to leave and not stay and drink all night with them like I used to. Anyway when I got home I walked through my house staring at blank walls were all our photos used to be. It was tough they are all stacked up on my kitchen table. I don't know if I have the strength yet to start taking the photos out of the frames. I just don't like looking at them.
> 
> I also told my buddies last night the latest with whats going on in my marriage. They too say that they've noticed a big change in my W the past couple years, I told them that unless I'm crazy it looks like we are preparing for divorce at this point. They all were very supportive and understanding that this is probably the best decision. Felt good knowing that my close buddies didn't seem to have any judgment towards me when I said that I'm preparing myself to file. They realize that the W is the one who gave up a while ago and that theres really nothing else I can do. They just want to see me move on and find my happiness again.
> 
> Today is my W 30th birthday, I have not contacted her at all and don't plan on it. It will be interesting to see how many of my buddies (who were like brothers to her for many years) actually wish her a happy birthday on facebook today. Yes I know I shouldn't even worry or care about something like that but I am interested. Anyway just wanted to check in, I hope everyone is having a good weekend.


Don't be interested to check Facebook to see who wishes her a happy birthday or some such things. All your doing is keeping yourself attached by doing these actions. 

You need to make an effort to have your brain override your heart right now. It gets easier in time but it's too easy to slip back. You taking steps forward, don't set yourself up for steps back.

Don't worry about taking pictures out of frames, just box them up for now and tuck them in a closet. All it will be is another trip down memory lane. This can wait till later when you have more emotional strength.


----------



## farsidejunky

The best thing you can do is unfriend, or at least ignore, on social media. The less you have to see of her the faster your healing.


----------



## MrPack

honcho said:


> MrPack said:
> 
> 
> 
> I went out with a few of my good buddies last night, had a good time. I had a couple beers and some dinner then went home, it felt good to want to leave and not stay and drink all night with them like I used to. Anyway when I got home I walked through my house staring at blank walls were all our photos used to be. It was tough they are all stacked up on my kitchen table. I don't know if I have the strength yet to start taking the photos out of the frames. I just don't like looking at them.
> 
> I also told my buddies last night the latest with whats going on in my marriage. They too say that they've noticed a big change in my W the past couple years, I told them that unless I'm crazy it looks like we are preparing for divorce at this point. They all were very supportive and understanding that this is probably the best decision. Felt good knowing that my close buddies didn't seem to have any judgment towards me when I said that I'm preparing myself to file. They realize that the W is the one who gave up a while ago and that theres really nothing else I can do. They just want to see me move on and find my happiness again.
> 
> Today is my W 30th birthday, I have not contacted her at all and don't plan on it. It will be interesting to see how many of my buddies (who were like brothers to her for many years) actually wish her a happy birthday on facebook today. Yes I know I shouldn't even worry or care about something like that but I am interested. Anyway just wanted to check in, I hope everyone is having a good weekend.
> 
> 
> 
> Don't be interested to check Facebook to see who wishes her a happy birthday or some such things. All your doing is keeping yourself attached by doing these actions.
> 
> You need to make an effort to have your brain override your heart right now. It gets easier in time but it's too easy to slip back. You taking steps forward, don't set yourself up for steps back.
> 
> Don't worry about taking pictures out of frames, just box them up for now and tuck them in a closet. All it will be is another trip down memory lane. This can wait till later when you have more emotional strength.
Click to expand...

Yea I'm not ready to go through every frame and take the photos out. Ive got some d coworkers setting boxes aside for me at work. I'll bring some home tomorrow and throw them in there then in my garage. 

My sister sent me some pictures from our recent Mexico vacation. Theres one of me with my shirt off looking better than I have in years with the weight I've lost and the working out that I'm doing a couple times a week(yea I know I need to hit the gym more than 2 days a week). I put that SOB as my profile picture on Facebook. Kind of the new me I guess. I probably sound really into myself right now but I'm proud of the way I look especially in that photo. Gotta find the positives when I can right now.


----------



## MrPack

farsidejunky said:


> The best thing you can do is unfriend, or at least ignore, on social media. The less you have to see of her the faster your healing.


I was able to remove her from my news feed on Facebook, meaning that none of her posts will show up to me unless I go search her page. I guess I'm not ready to totally unfriendly her yet.


----------



## rcarrick

Hello MrPack, 

I'm going through EXACTLY the same thing! I really wanted to let you know that you are not alone and try to stay positive. this is my first time posting to something like this so forgive any mistakes of lack of input, kinda a little nervous.


----------



## Absurdist

rcarrick said:


> Hello MrPack,
> 
> I'm going through EXACTLY the same thing! I really wanted to let you know that you are not alone and try to stay positive. this is my first time posting to something like this so forgive any mistakes of lack of input, kinda a little nervous.


No need to be nervous rcarrick. Why don't you start your own thread. There are some good people here with ears to listen. Better yet, send MrPack a pm. You guys can figure this out together. Nothing like a kindred spirit.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MrPack

rcarrick said:


> Hello MrPack,
> 
> I'm going through EXACTLY the same thing! I really wanted to let you know that you are not alone and try to stay positive. this is my first time posting to something like this so forgive any mistakes of lack of input, kinda a little nervous.


rcarrick, I sent you a PM. If/when your ready this site can and will help you get through whatever storm your in. I wish you luck and know that I'm here for you as well as numerous other people. Head up and one day at a time.


----------



## farsidejunky

Sounds like a weekend of progress, Pack.

Do yourself a favor though. You really should unfriend her in FB. You will have a weak moment soon. When you do, you will gravitate towards that FB profile. Remove the temptation, brother.

Are you planning to work out in the morning?


----------



## TrustlostHearbroken

Pack,

Just remove her from your facebook friendslist. Don't look up her page anymore. They will do nothing but cause more triggers and make it harder to detach. It is very tempting and easy to get into a habit of checking it regularly. I had access to my WW's facebook account several weeks after separation. It made me angry of the things she said and how she spread lies. It also upset me when I saw how many males she added to her friendslist. I got into the habit of trying to see what she was up to daily. There was even a message response she made concerning a birthday party for a friend's kid. I was expecting her to respond with bringing our kids along, but instead she asked if it was ok to bring her "boyfriend". Eventually, she changed her password. Which helped detaching much easier, since I have no clue what she's up to anymore. Though it was fun knowing something she said and when asked about it, she would tell me the total opposite. I was able to know when she was lying to me. I can not believe a single thing she says to me anymore. 

You need to detach. No contact is important and that means including the urge to check up on her. It's a hard and long road filled with holes and obstacles in the way. Eventually you will hit your destination. I have gone through 6 weeks now. I was doing good most of the week. Thought I didn't care anymore what the WW was doing until she dropped off the kids this evening. The kids mentioned to me how she got all dressed up before she drove them to my house. She told them that she was heading to a local carnival in town to hang out with a friend. I got pissed off for the next hour or so. The thought of her and the POSOM still pisses me off. I reread the 180 list several times and kept thinking about the goals I have and the goals I have for my kids. I thought of finding someone in the future that will be a better wife to me and better mother to my kids. That quickly removed the anger I was feeling and made me actually feel sorry for my WW. A few weeks ago, a trigger like that would have set me off to the point I wouldn't be able to sleep. So I guess it really is getting easier. My minds clear and I'm ready for bed.


----------



## LongWalk

Hi Mr Pack,

You've come a long way. Yes, unfriend her on FB. She doesn't care.

My gut feeling is that she will not be happy with OM. But that does nothing for you.

There is some risk that she will reach out to you if she is not getting her needs met.

Keep working out. Join Meetup or some other organizations that will get you out socializing.


----------



## HobbesTheTiger

I encourage you to continue to seek individual counselling to help you deal with everything, and to google "No more mr. nice guy pdf", it's a great book available online for free.

Best wishes


----------



## philglossop

Hi Mr Pack

Just read through your story and I'm another for deleting her from all types of social media. The actual process of divorce is emotionally tough at points without the added rubbish of having your STBXW appearing on your social media. I wish I'd done it a lot sooner than I did- and I had to see my ex with the OM as a Facebook profile pic- trust me mate, I wouldn't wish that pain on anyone.

We've got your back here for when you need us- if you want to message her, message us instead. The hard 180 will work help you detach to the best of your ability. 

Having said the above, she's checked out already. Now's the point to be person she never realized she had in terms of strength. You can do this- just believe it brother. Because we here all believe in your strength.


One day you'll be like me and Pluto, the situation will be over and the idiots we divorced will look and wonder what the heck happened to them. Oh they'll never admit it, but you'll see it in their eyes. And it won't hurt you anymore!


----------



## helolover

Pack, unfriend her today. Get out and about. Stay off social media to a large extent - its just a bunch of attention whoring anyways.


----------



## MrPack

I gave my wife 2 weeks to come to the house and at least pack up her office, this was late last week when I told her this. She text me yesterday saying that her original plan to come this weekend wont work because she has a lot of studying to do...what a surprise. Anyway say we get down to the two week mark and she still hasn't made plans to come. How do I approach this very likely possibility without coming off like a total a$$hole but also standing my ground? I guess I'm worried that the whole process of her getting all her stuff out of the house, splitting up stuff and selling my house will take longer than I want because she is always "to busy". Am I going back down that road of worrying about things I cannot control or is this a legit concern I should be thinking about? 

Also, she has her appointment on her own with the MC Monday next week, do I just leave it alone... not ask her if she's still going and not ask her how it went? Personally I think she'll find an excuse not to go but if she does go and she for some reason schedules another joint MC appointment for us what do I do?? I feel like it's a lost cause at this point and her actions/words would lead me to believe she feels the same way. I'm thinking if she sends me a text or calls me next week and tells me she made another MC appointment for us I'll reply back with...

"Honestly MrsPack do you think its worth our time? You haven't shown me ANYTHING indicating that you want to R so I'm struggling to understand why you would want to go back to another MC appointment together".

Am I going in the right direction with that??

On a side note, I've been feeling pretty good lately. Haven't really felt much sadness in a while, more anger and frustration. I am however having trouble sleeping in recent days but I'm attributing this to many many deadlines I have at work this week.


----------



## farsidejunky

Good to see you check in.

If she does not get her stuff by the deadline, take it to a mini storage, pay a month of rent, put a combination lock on it, and text her to tell her where her stuff is with the combination, and when the rent is up. If she gets pissy, ignore her. If she is respectful, be polite and tell her that you needed to move her stuff out to list the home, as well as to begin truly moving on.

Do not bring up the MC. Detachment, remember? If she wants to bring it up, she will, but you want to try to be in a place where it doesn't matter. 

The reason you are feeling better likely has to do with your lack of contact with her. This is the beauty of the 180. Keep it up.


----------



## honcho

Pack it up for her. You won't like doing it but it's "less painful" doing it that way than watching her do it. She will do it piece meal most likely getting a few things here and there and take forever to get all her stuff. It will drive you nuts.

Give her a deadline to pick up at house if not met then haul to a storage place and pay a month. She wants to be more responsible so put the responsibility onto her then. People in the real world need to work around studying etc. This is all part of the grown up world.

Don't remind her or ask about the appointment with counselor, your not her secretary or babysitter.


----------



## Dyokemm

MrPack,

I don't know if this will help you...if not, then just feel free to ignore it.

When I caught my LTgf cheating....I ended the relationship immediately and kicked her out .

To get over her, I REALLY embraced the hatred and anger I felt at her betrayal.

She wanted to stay friends...said I was important to her and always would be...but she couldn't be happy in a relationship with me any more (and we had been talking about wedding plans 2 months before).

When she showed up at my place saying she wanted to stay friends 2 weeks after DDAY....I channeled all of that hate and anger into the coldest and most intense rage I have ever felt in my life.

I told her I DESPISED her...and never wanted to see her again, much less ever keep her traitorous a** as a friend.....I mean, I was ICY and VICIOUS in how I addressed her.

I could see it hurt her really bad...she left in tears.

Hate to admit it...but her shocked pain at my complete and utter rejection of her as a friend, or even an acquaintance, really made me feel better.

But after giving that rage free reign, I noticed it burned itself out into TOTAL indifference.

By the time she came back 8 months after DDay, begging for another chance, the rage was gone.

I was still cold....still basically despised who she was....but that anger was gone.

I really could care less about what happened to her AND I definitely wanted nothing to do with her again....told her to go pound sand.

I really think a BS needs to give themselves that time allow the rage of the betrayal to flow unchecked...its like lancing a sore and letting it drain out IMO.

Best wishes on getting over this.


----------



## Marduk

MrPack said:


> I gave my wife 2 weeks to come to the house and at least pack up her office, this was late last week when I told her this. She text me yesterday saying that her original plan to come this weekend wont work because she has a lot of studying to do...what a surprise. Anyway say we get down to the two week mark and she still hasn't made plans to come. How do I approach this very likely possibility without coming off like a total a$$hole but also standing my ground?


If you don't come get your stuff, I'll box it up and have it in storage at address ____ under your name. I've paid the first month; after that it's up to you.

But if it were me it would be a "your stuff will be on the lawn by Monday" conversation.



> I guess I'm worried that the whole process of her getting all her stuff out of the house, splitting up stuff and selling my house will take longer than I want because she is always "to busy". Am I going back down that road of worrying about things I cannot control or is this a legit concern I should be thinking about?


"too busy" means "It's not important to me" or "I'm avoiding the issue."

Either she's having too much fun (think about that) or she doesn't want this to be over.

Or both.

Either way, letting this go on is toxic for you.


> Also, she has her appointment on her own with the MC Monday next week, do I just leave it alone... not ask her if she's still going and not ask her how it went? Personally I think she'll find an excuse not to go but if she does go and she for some reason schedules another joint MC appointment for us what do I do?? I feel like it's a lost cause at this point and her actions/words would lead me to believe she feels the same way. I'm thinking if she sends me a text or calls me next week and tells me she made another MC appointment for us I'll reply back with...


Leave it alone. She will be "too busy" for this, too. And even if she's not, you will be sending the wrong message by inquiring.

If she books an MC... 

Personally, I'd be "too busy."


----------



## Absurdist

First, most real estate agents will tell you that a house "shows" better if there is furniture and stuff in it. It doesn't show as well if rooms are empty or unadorned. You may want to check with your agent if you are going to list the property for sale. Also, it occurs to me that you have stated that the house is titled in your name only. Usually when real estate is acquired in a marriage it is acquired by joint tenancy. You have a mortgage, is she on the note for repayment? Usually a lender will want both spouses to sign the note. She would have had to sign the mortgage or deed of trust securing the note in order to waive her marital rights for the lender. You really need a good lawyer to look at all these things. In order to list the property for sale, she may have to sign the listing contract.

When you say pack up her office, what do you mean? Do you mean office equipment and furniture or do you mean papers, accessories, books and the like (i.e. stuff)? If you acquired furniture and equipment during the marriage, these things may be yours as well as hers. If you mean stuff, I think I would pack it up myself in boxes and put it in the garage or wherever. She still has keys to the house right? She can come get it at any time. In fact, I would pack up all her "stuff" ... clothes, shoes and all and put it in the same place. Give her a date certain to retrieve it. If she persists in dragging her feet tell her you will dispose of same in the manner you see fit since she doesn't deem it important to pick it up. I suppose you could rent a storage facility as suggested above or you can simply leave it for the garbage man to take to the dump. Her choice. 

MrPack you have some "nice guy' traits but you have more "good guy" traits. You have bent over backwards for this person. Sometimes after you have tried sugar and honey it's time to be an Ahole. There is nothing wrong with being an Ahole when all else has failed. In fact, it may be something she respects. It may shock her that her usual teddy bear has turned into a grizzly bear.

I fully expect that she will not go to IC nor schedule additional MC based on your last session and her haphazard way of doing things. If she can't even come to house to eat dinner a few nights, she is sending you a strong message. Send her a strong message back.

If she does schedule additional MC then your proposed email is fine. Or, you can go simply to make reasonable plans for divorce.

Hang in there MrPack. You are growing by leaps and bounds. You will have regressions. Perfectly understandable. But you are gaining strength to do whatever comes your way.


----------



## Absurdist

Just one more thought.

Separated people looking at each others Facebook page causes this mindless activity.


----------



## MrPack

Update...

Wife text me last night out of the blue with "Hi! How are you doing?" I replied with "good how are you". She of course went off about how busy and stressed she is with some upcomming exams, same ol crap. Anyway I then replied with "what are we doing here?" (yea I know now that I shouldnt have asked that and should have just kept things short and simple). She replied with "I dont know how to answer that, just because we arent together anymore doesnt mean I'm not going to want to say hi sometimes. Sorry if I'm confusing you." I then replied with "No thats not what I mean, I mean we havent talked since our MC appointment other than texts about house stuff. I guess I just want to make sure we are both on the same page and that you understand that I need you to start packign things up like your office". She said she'd come this weekend to do it...I said okay let me know and converstation was over.

This morning I see on our cell records that she called my Employee ASsistance Program, which was something she needed to do in order to go to her inidividual appointment today with the MC. So this is telling me that she is going to her appointment today. Why on earth is she still going????? It's pretty clear to me that this M is over...I dont get it.


----------



## farsidejunky

MrPack said:


> Update...
> 
> Wife text me last night out of the blue with "Hi! How are you doing?" I replied with "good how are you". She of course went off about how busy and stressed she is with some upcomming exams, same ol crap. Anyway I then replied with "what are we doing here?" (yea I know now that I shouldnt have asked that and should have just kept things short and simple). She replied with "I dont know how to answer that, just because we arent together anymore doesnt mean I'm not going to want to say hi sometimes. Sorry if I'm confusing you." I then replied with "No thats not what I mean, I mean we havent talked since our MC appointment other than texts about house stuff. I guess I just want to make sure we are both on the same page and that you understand that I need you to start packign things up like your office". She said she'd come this weekend to do it...I said okay let me know and converstation was over.
> 
> This morning I see on our cell records that she called my Employee ASsistance Program, which was something she needed to do in order to go to her inidividual appointment today with the MC. So this is telling me that she is going to her appointment today. Why on earth is she still going????? It's pretty clear to me that this M is over...I dont get it.


Pack, I would try to stop worrying and understanding.

She is still cake eating. She wants reassurance from you, but does not want to commit to you.

Stop allowing it.


----------



## Chaparral

If she tells you that she made an mc appt tell her you dont see the point if there is a third person in the marriage. If she asks what you mean just tell her you re not going to play second fiddle to a bartender. The tell her she has plenty of tome for him but zero for you and you have better things to do.


----------



## Pluto2

Hi Mr. Pack

(Back from vacation)

It sounds like she wants to have Bob the bartender, and for you to be "just fine" with it. Sounds selfish, doesn't it? Because it is. Maybe that's why she's seeking IC.

And you're still letting her call the shots. Don't ask when she's moving her stuff out, tell her this will be done on such and such a day. If that day doesn't work, pack it up and store it for one month, and one month only. It will hurt like hell to watch her take stuff out of your home, which is why so many have suggested you just move it yourself.

So the next time she texts, and she will, do NOT respond right away. Stop and consider what you want to share and how you want to share it. Even come here and ask for opinions-we got a million of them!


----------



## Absurdist

Allow me to ask some questions.




MrPack said:


> Update...
> 
> Wife text me last night out of the blue with "Hi! How are you doing?" I replied with "good how are you". How long did you take to respond to her text? She of course went off about how busy and stressed she is with some upcomming exams, same ol crap. Anyway I then replied with "what are we doing here?" (yea I know now that I shouldnt have asked that and should have just kept things short and simple). She replied with "I dont know how to answer that, just because we arent together anymore doesnt mean I'm not going to want to say hi sometimes. Sorry if I'm confusing you." I then replied with "No thats not what I mean, I mean we havent talked since our MC appointment other than texts about house stuff. I guess I just want to make sure we are both on the same page and that you understand that I need you to start packign things up like your office". Others may scold me but I think this is a good response to the text. Are you going to be there when she packs up her stuff? She said she'd come this weekend to do it...I said okay let me know and converstation was over.
> 
> This morning I see on our cell records that she called my Employee ASsistance Program, which was something she needed to do in order to go to her inidividual appointment today with the MC. So this is telling me that she is going to her appointment today. Why on earth is she still going????? It's pretty clear to me that this M is over...I dont get it. That surprises me too MrPack, especially if she didn't mention it to you ahead of time. I would have bet a case of Courvoisier that she wouldn't show up at IC. Now the important question. MrPack, all we know about her is what you write. What do you think she's doing?


----------



## honcho

MrPack said:


> Update...
> 
> Wife text me last night out of the blue with "Hi! How are you doing?" I replied with "good how are you". She of course went off about how busy and stressed she is with some upcomming exams, same ol crap. Anyway I then replied with "what are we doing here?" (yea I know now that I shouldnt have asked that and should have just kept things short and simple). She replied with "I dont know how to answer that, just because we arent together anymore doesnt mean I'm not going to want to say hi sometimes. Sorry if I'm confusing you." I then replied with "No thats not what I mean, I mean we havent talked since our MC appointment other than texts about house stuff. I guess I just want to make sure we are both on the same page and that you understand that I need you to start packign things up like your office". She said she'd come this weekend to do it...I said okay let me know and converstation was over.
> 
> This morning I see on our cell records that she called my Employee ASsistance Program, which was something she needed to do in order to go to her inidividual appointment today with the MC. So this is telling me that she is going to her appointment today. Why on earth is she still going????? It's pretty clear to me that this M is over...I dont get it.


She probably made the the call this morning based on the texts last night. Although you answered her back and probably very quickly you didn't keep engaging, you steered it toward business of packing stuff. She wanted to feel you out last night n see where you are at emotionally. Guessing on my part but if you engaged in a long text session last night she would not have called the program this morning.

Your spouse has no desire to change the status quo right now, she has her single life going and she has you in the wings. Attending the IC would give the appearance of "working on things". Your spouse avoids decisions, not going is a clear sign she is done. She probably could sense some coldness from you last night and she doesn't want that either.

People may have differing opinions on this but I would suggest you quit looking at the phone records. Right now it's just a way to keep yourself attached in some way.


----------



## Tron

:smile2:

She was making sure that you were her little Plan B in the back pocket.

I guess you're not any more. 

Nice job.


----------



## tom67

File and serve her at work.
Then you will see the real her.


----------



## MrPack

Absurdist said:


> Allow me to ask some questions.


-I'm an idiot and replied within a few minutes. I should have waited a bit.

-I planned on being there while she packs at least this first time because we talked about discussing who gets what. I know it'll be hard but I feel like its something I cannot avoid.

-What do I think she is doing? Well I think that if she really did go to the IC appointment today it is her way of maybe not looking like as much of the bad guy, showing that she is still trying even though it's a tiny tiny bit and it seems too little too late. This goes back to me being there while she packs stuff this weekend, I want to bring up the fact that in my eyes this is over and we are taking steps in that direction. I want to see/hear her reaction to me saying that. Her appointement was this morning, about 6 hours ago. I'm thinking that if she went and set up another MC appointment for us she would have told me by now. To be honest I'm really hoping she did NOT make an appoitment for us because it just makes no sense anymore.


----------



## MrPack

honcho said:


> She probably made the the call this morning based on the texts last night. Although you answered her back and probably very quickly you didn't keep engaging, you steered it toward business of packing stuff. She wanted to feel you out last night n see where you are at emotionally. Guessing on my part but if you engaged in a long text session last night she would not have called the program this morning.
> 
> Your spouse has no desire to change the status quo right now, she has her single life going and she has you in the wings. Attending the IC would give the appearance of "working on things". Your spouse avoids decisions, not going is a clear sign she is done. She probably could sense some coldness from you last night and she doesn't want that either.
> 
> People may have differing opinions on this but I would suggest you quit looking at the phone records. Right now it's just a way to keep yourself attached in some way.


I've been thinking alot recently about trying really hard to stop looking at the phone records, just havent been able to stop yet. 

You make a good point in the fact that she text me out of the blue the night before her IC session. Very interesting to think about...her feeling out the situation.


----------



## MrPack

Pluto2 said:


> Hi Mr. Pack
> 
> (Back from vacation)
> 
> It sounds like she wants to have Bob the bartender, and for you to be "just fine" with it. Sounds selfish, doesn't it? Because it is. Maybe that's why she's seeking IC.
> 
> And you're still letting her call the shots. Don't ask when she's moving her stuff out, tell her this will be done on such and such a day. If that day doesn't work, pack it up and store it for one month, and one month only. It will hurt like hell to watch her take stuff out of your home, which is why so many have suggested you just move it yourself.
> 
> So the next time she texts, and she will, do NOT respond right away. Stop and consider what you want to share and how you want to share it. Even come here and ask for opinions-we got a million of them!


I will certainly wait a while to text her back and will for sure ask you all on here for input/advice.


----------



## MrPack

Pluto2 said:


> Hi Mr. Pack
> 
> (Back from vacation)
> 
> It sounds like she wants to have Bob the bartender, and for you to be "just fine" with it. Sounds selfish, doesn't it? Because it is. Maybe that's why she's seeking IC.
> 
> And you're still letting her call the shots. Don't ask when she's moving her stuff out, tell her this will be done on such and such a day. If that day doesn't work, pack it up and store it for one month, and one month only. It will hurt like hell to watch her take stuff out of your home, which is why so many have suggested you just move it yourself.
> 
> So the next time she texts, and she will, do NOT respond right away. Stop and consider what you want to share and how you want to share it. Even come here and ask for opinions-we got a million of them!


Oh and I hope you had a great Vacation!!!


----------



## MrPack

Do I make sure the house is spotless when she comes this weekend? Not to impress her by any means but to appear that I have my $hit together and I'm not letting her get to me anymore? Or do I just leave it alone?

And maybe I'm over thinking again.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

I would say yes. Except I'd also put a pair of women's panties (one size smaller than hers) just under the bed and still visible. Perhaps even a bra (one size bigger).


----------



## Absurdist

MrPack said:


> Do I make sure the house is spotless when she comes this weekend? Not to impress her by any means but to appear that I have my $hit together and I'm not letting her get to me anymore? Or do I just leave it alone?
> 
> And maybe I'm over thinking again.


Considering your personality, I would be shocked if you kept your house looking like a pigsty. :wink2:

Don't do anything different. What did it look like when she came over a month ago? If it's spotless and it's usually untidy, she'll know you're just trying to impress her. That's an epic fail at this point.

Your house should be like it usually is.

Now a truly evil dude.... would find a few photos of a beautiful girl, would put them in frames, and leave them out around the place...


----------



## Absurdist

WorkingOnMe said:


> I would say yes. Except I'd also put a pair of women's panties (one size smaller than hers) just under the bed and still visible. Perhaps even a bra (one size bigger).


Great minds think alike.


----------



## Tron

Absurdist said:


> Now a truly evil dude.... would find a few photos of a beautiful girl, would put them in frames, and leave them out around the place...


Or your new POF profile up on the computer...>


----------



## Absurdist

honcho said:


> Your spouse has no desire to change the status quo right now, she has her single life going and she has you in the wings. Attending the IC would give the appearance of "working on things". Your spouse avoids decisions, not going is a clear sign she is done. She probably could sense some coldness from you last night and she doesn't want that either.
> 
> .


Listen to Honcho. He's usually very intuitive about these things and right on target.


----------



## MrPack

hahah i'm loving comments about pictures of hot girls and panties under the pillow!


----------



## Tobyboy

MrPack said:


> hahah i'm loving comments about pictures of hot girls and panties under the pillow!


Does your stbx have a hot girlfriend? If so, call her up and ask her out for drinks!!! If she accepts, take her to bar where the "bartender" works!!! And take some pics and post them on a social site!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## helolover

MrPack said:


> Do I make sure the house is spotless when she comes this weekend? Not to impress her by any means but to appear that I have my $hit together and I'm not letting her get to me anymore? Or do I just leave it alone?
> 
> And maybe I'm over thinking again.


Put aside the stuff you know is yours. Move it to a safe location if you must. 

I recommend you are not there when she moves her stuff out. You seem to be waiting for some kind of emotional moment you know for sure the marriage is over. DO NOT SET YOURSELF UP FOR THIS. Let her pack up her stuff and move out. Keep your frame and keep your dignity. 

Stop checking the phone records. She is seeing the bartender. Accept that. It will help you heal. Seriously. You are not detaching as long as you are doing that. You are enmeshed - and that's not a good place to be. You are trying to walk away, but keep looking back. Dude!

2X4


----------



## honcho

MrPack said:


> Do I make sure the house is spotless when she comes this weekend? Not to impress her by any means but to appear that I have my $hit together and I'm not letting her get to me anymore? Or do I just leave it alone?
> 
> And maybe I'm over thinking again.


Your over thinking it. Clean/messy it's your house keep it as you see fit. 

I'll also suggest to you again to box up stuff and get it ready. For me it tore me up watching her do it and she was so slow doing it. Your spouse will probably only grab some of the stuff.


----------



## Marduk

MrPack said:


> Do I make sure the house is spotless when she comes this weekend? Not to impress her by any means but to appear that I have my $hit together and I'm not letting her get to me anymore? Or do I just leave it alone?
> 
> And maybe I'm over thinking again.


Don't do anything.

The best thing for this situation is not animosity, game playing, or anything that is a response to your marriage.

Your marriage is no more. Your new path for the time being is not anger; it is apathy.


----------



## thenub

Just keep busy. Let her move the stuff by herself. After all she apparently doesn't want a husband that would be willing to help out. 
Probably best to just let her in then go about your business with no interactions with her.


----------



## MrPack

Well she confirmed today that she is coming to the house Sunday early afternoon to pack up clothes and some of her office stuff. We will also discuss who gets what. Going to be tough...She also said she wants to help with anyother "chores" that need to be done to prepare for the sale of the hosue. I told her I dont need any help but if there was anything she could do I would let her know. The less time she spends at my house the better in my mind.


----------



## Marduk

MrPack said:


> Well she confirmed today that she is coming to the house Sunday early afternoon to pack up clothes and some of her office stuff. We will also discuss who gets what. Going to be tough...She also said she wants to help with anyother "chores" that need to be done to prepare for the sale of the hosue. I told her I dont need any help but if there was anything she could do I would let her know. The less time she spends at my house the better in my mind.


Just tell her that.

"I have this, and to be honest, I don't really want you here, so I'll just do it myself."


----------



## honcho

MrPack said:


> Well she confirmed today that she is coming to the house Sunday early afternoon to pack up clothes and some of her office stuff. We will also discuss who gets what. Going to be tough...She also said she wants to help with anyother "chores" that need to be done to prepare for the sale of the hosue. I told her I dont need any help but if there was anything she could do I would let her know. The less time she spends at my house the better in my mind.


Of course she wants to discuss who gets what. She will suck you back in emotionally. Realistically ask yourself how much of the stuff you really want or need. You also should really consider talking to her about coming by once and getting everything and be done.

She will come by many times doing it little by little. In the been there done that category you don't want it done that way.


----------



## Absurdist

You've said the only thing you really care about is a TV and a sofa. Let her have whatever she wants and act dispassionately about it. Pots, pans, lamps and crap can be replaced. What you do want is a date certain that she moves everything out.

What I'm indecisive about is whether you help her carry her office stuff to the car. Perhaps Honcho can enlighten us here. On the one hand you want to move on so help her. On the other hand she's the one that wants separation so she can carry her own $hit.

Calm and detached MrPack. Fake this if necessary. The last thing we need is a blubbering MrPack on Sunday.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## honcho

Absurdist said:


> You've said the only thing you really care about is a TV and a sofa. Let her have whatever she wants and act dispassionately about it. Pots, pans, lamps and crap can be replaced. What you do want is a date certain that she moves everything out.
> 
> What I'm indecisive about is whether you help her carry her office stuff to the car. Perhaps Honcho can enlighten us here. On the one hand you want to move on so help her. On the other hand she's the one that wants separation so she can carry her own $hit.
> 
> Calm and detached MrPack. Fake this if necessary. The last thing we need is a blubbering MrPack on Sunday.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


When my crazy stbx was doing this I was admittedly a blubbering mess so keep that in mind haha! I could fake it while she was at house but I'd bet her car wasn't out of driveway before I would be an "emotional wreck"

The stuff and junk didn't mean anything to me and most of it I was happy it was leaving but watching her pack and take away parts of our life just bugged me. 

Anyway the first time I didn't help one bit and guess what very little actually got moved. Time number two I helped pack the car, time number 3 she refused my help and when it came to time number 4 and she wanted her clothes I packed every single article of clothing in the house, she told me she was coming on a Saturday I told her all the boxes would be in the driveway and all she had to do was load and go. The boxes sat in the driveway for 3 weeks as she wouldn't come and get them. 

If he doesn't help it probably won't get done but it makes for a long emotional day for Mr pack.


----------



## farsidejunky

Help her move her stuff out to get it done. Initiate zero dialogue. When she does, think Spock. Short, concise, business like. If she initiates anything to do with the marriage:

"I am not okay discussing a relationship that you have chosen to end."

Pack, this will not be easy as I am sure you know. But you are strong enough to do it. 

Stay strong, brother.


----------



## Pluto2

When my ex moved out I did not help. He could run around and find his crap all by himself because at that point I was done. It was horribly painful to watch. He ended up asking our DD's boyfriend at the time, I think he was fifteen, to help him carry some big things to his truck. Poor guy had no idea we were separating . That boyfriend was never seen again.


----------



## MrPack

Absurdist said:


> You've said the only thing you really care about is a TV and a sofa. Let her have whatever she wants and act dispassionately about it. Pots, pans, lamps and crap can be replaced. What you do want is a date certain that she moves everything out.
> 
> What I'm indecisive about is whether you help her carry her office stuff to the car. Perhaps Honcho can enlighten us here. On the one hand you want to move on so help her. On the other hand she's the one that wants separation so she can carry her own $hit.
> 
> Calm and detached MrPack. Fake this if necessary. The last thing we need is a blubbering MrPack on Sunday.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yea I've already thought and realized there really isnt much that I want out of our belongings. I'm good with just letting her have most of it, it's not like we own a bunch of high dollar stuff. As far as helping her move stuff to the car, I think I'll play it by ear. But yes I will be calm and detached. The last thing I want is to take any steps back emotionaly or lose any of the strength I've gained.


----------



## MrPack

honcho said:


> When my crazy stbx was doing this I was admittedly a blubbering mess so keep that in mind haha! I could fake it while she was at house but I'd bet her car wasn't out of driveway before I would be an "emotional wreck"
> 
> The stuff and junk didn't mean anything to me and most of it I was happy it was leaving but watching her pack and take away parts of our life just bugged me.
> 
> Anyway the first time I didn't help one bit and guess what very little actually got moved. Time number two I helped pack the car, time number 3 she refused my help and when it came to time number 4 and she wanted her clothes I packed every single article of clothing in the house, she told me she was coming on a Saturday I told her all the boxes would be in the driveway and all she had to do was load and go. The boxes sat in the driveway for 3 weeks as she wouldn't come and get them.
> 
> If he doesn't help it probably won't get done but it makes for a long emotional day for Mr pack.


I also have that thought, if I dont help it wont get done or it will drag on forever. I'll see how it goes Sunday and go from there.


----------



## Marduk

MrPack said:


> I also have that thought, if I dont help it wont get done or it will drag on forever. I'll see how it goes Sunday and go from there.


Just be ready, prep yourself, and have a buddy or two to hang with when it's all done.

A year from now, you'll be laughing with these buddies about it.


----------



## MrPack

farsidejunky said:


> Help her move her stuff out to get it done. Initiate zero dialogue. When she does, think Spock. Short, concise, business like. If she initiates anything to do with the marriage:
> 
> "I am not okay discussing a relationship that you have chosen to end."
> 
> Pack, this will not be easy as I am sure you know. But you are strong enough to do it.
> 
> Stay strong, brother.


Thanks, I know it'll be tough but I also know I will and can get through it. Just like everything else these past 3 months. I think I'll leave her alone to rifle through her stuff and box it all up, then help her carry it to the car.


----------



## Tobyboy

MrPack said:


> Thanks, I know it'll be tough but I also know I will and can get through it. Just like everything else these past 3 months. I think I'll leave her alone to rifle through her stuff and box it all up, then help her carry it to the car.


.......before she gets in her car to leave tell her *"I guess this is the part where you call your bartender boyfriend and cry on his shoulder, so he can tell you everything is going to be alright....because he listens to you, understands you, doesn't judge you, y'all have so much in common........pathetic". *


----------



## Marduk

Tobyboy said:


> .......before she gets in her car to leave tell her *"I guess this is the part where you call your bartender boyfriend and cry on his shoulder, so he can tell you everything is going to be alright....because he listens to you, understands you, doesn't judge you, y'all have so much in common........pathetic". *


Being angry with her and responding this way just tells her that you still give a **** about her.

Apathy.

Turn around and go the hell on with your life.


----------



## Absurdist

marduk said:


> Being angry with her and responding this way just tells her that you still give a **** about her.
> 
> Apathy.
> 
> Turn around and go the hell on with your life.


^^^ This ^^^. Listen to Marduk.

The high road leads you to a mountain top. The low road leads to the sewer.


----------



## Tron

That emotional outburst will get you nowhere. 

You could however grab the martini shaker out of the cabinet, nonchalantly toss it in her box of crap and tell her maybe she and bartender boy can put it to good use and walk away.


----------



## farsidejunky

Tron said:


> That emotional outburst will get you nowhere.
> 
> You could however grab the martini shaker out of the cabinet, nonchalantly toss it in her box of crap and tell her maybe she and bartender boy can put it to good use and walk away.


That would be classy, but only if you did it with either a smile or indifference.


----------



## MrPack

Marduk I 100% agree! I'm not showing her any anger. I'm fine without her. I'll be better off without her.


----------



## farsidejunky

MrPack said:


> Marduk I 100% agree! I'm not showing her any anger. I'm fine without her. I'll be better off without her.


This sounds healthy, brother.


----------



## LongWalk

Best to let her alone. Don't be there.


----------



## helolover

LongWalk said:


> Best to let her alone. Don't be there.


This is 100% the way to do this.

This is strength and a way to be sure you keep it together. You are way to enmeshed to witness the move. Sticky the items you want. All of it is replaceable. 

She's a big girl. She can move herself.


----------



## thenub

Leave a note stating anything left in the house after a certain date will be disposed of. You are not running a storage business.


----------



## Marduk

I dunno.

If I left her there to rummage through our (and my!) stuff with me not there, I'd feel like I was hiding from her.

What I'd want to be doing is watching a football game on tv with a beer in my hand and a smirk on my face as she struggles to clean her crap out of my place.


----------



## farsidejunky

marduk said:


> I dunno.
> 
> If I left her there to rummage through our (and my!) stuff with me not there, I'd feel like I was hiding from her.
> 
> What I'd want to be doing is watching a football game on tv with a beer in my hand and a smirk on my face as she struggles to clean her crap out of my place.


This. In spades.


----------



## honcho

marduk said:


> I dunno.
> 
> If I left her there to rummage through our (and my!) stuff with me not there, I'd feel like I was hiding from her.
> 
> What I'd want to be doing is watching a football game on tv with a beer in my hand and a smirk on my face as she struggles to clean her crap out of my place.


Since my case is the unusual one the one and only time I allowed her in the house when I wasn't there she cleared out EVERYTHING out of a living room including ripping up the carpetting and taking it. 

It is best if he stays or has someone he trusts to see what's really going on. I'm not saying she would rob him blind but it can save fights later about why something was taken.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MrPack

Bugged said:


> @MrPack...I got a bit lost..is she seeing a bartender or are these the usual allegations?
> Did you find out?


I havent found out 100% but they talk and text EVERYDAY all hours of the day and night. There's obviously something going on.


----------



## Pluto2

honcho said:


> Since my case is the unusual one the one and only time I allowed her in the house when I wasn't there she cleared out EVERYTHING out of a living room including ripping up the carpetting and taking it.
> 
> It is best if he stays or has someone he trusts to see what's really going on. I'm not saying she would rob him blind but it can save fights later about why something was taken.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh Honcho, sending hugs.
Your story reminded me of a man I work with who went through a divorce several years ago. The poor guy had no idea that his marriage was over until he came home from work one day and the house was empty. His wife took everything except the guy's clothes. Everything. Then moved herself and the kids out of state. He was crushed. Things did work out and he eventually married a really nice woman. But I remember how lost he was. Completely blind-sided.

Our dear Mr. Pack has been forewarned and will take all the precautions necessary, I'm sure.


----------



## MrPack

Well she's coming over tomorrow morning at 10am. I'm not sure what to expect but I'm prepared to give her the space to pack her clothes and office stuff. I think I'll take a trip to Home Depot for an hour while she does that and when I get back we can talk about splitting up our stuff. But if she asks again to help me "prepare" for putting the house on the market I still think I'm gonna tell her no I'm okay I can handle it. What do you guys think? I mean let's be honest she's so "busy" anyway. Lol


----------



## Tron

Thinking long term here, the less you are around her, the better.


----------



## farsidejunky

Stick with the original plan, brother.


----------



## Pluto2

Getting her stuff out is all the "help" you need. And make the trip to Home Depot relatively short, just in case her hands wander over to your stuff. Good luck


----------



## MrPack

Well she just left. Wasn't too bad. She took her clothes, I helped carry some out to her car. She took other items of hers nothing to big. We decided we would both make a list of items we want and prioritize them according to how bad we want each item. Then we'll go from there. It was weird we talked for a bit about each others family and just catching up on what we've been up too. I was pretty short with her, she of course was acting like nothing is wrong that's her MO fake it and hide your feelings. Anyway I know for a fact I came off strong didn't show any weakness. Feeling okay I guess.


----------



## farsidejunky

Well done minus the family chot chat. That only alleviates her guilt. Focus on yourself, Pack.


----------



## Absurdist

MrPack said:


> Well she just left. Wasn't too bad. She took her clothes, I helped carry some out to her car. She took other items of hers nothing to big. We decided we would both make a list of items we want and prioritize them according to how bad we want each item. Then we'll go from there. It was weird we talked for a bit about each others family and just catching up on what we've been up too. I was pretty short with her, she of course was acting like nothing is wrong that's her MO fake it and hide your feelings. Anyway I know for a fact I came off strong didn't show any weakness. Feeling okay I guess.


Well, that appeared to be short and simple. Did she pack up her office too? Congrats on staying strong.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MrPack

Absurdist said:


> Well, that appeared to be short and simple. Did she pack up her office too? Congrats on staying strong.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She didnt take much from her office just some books and stuff like that. But I also told her that I decided not to empty out that room, need it to look livable while I sell the house instead of an empty room.


----------



## honcho

MrPack said:


> She didnt take much from her office just some books and stuff like that. But I also told her that I decided not to empty out that room, need it to look livable while I sell the house instead of an empty room.


Has she ever mentioned that she went to the therapy appointment or she was going again?


----------



## MrPack

honcho said:


> Has she ever mentioned that she went to the therapy appointment or she was going again?


Good question, she never mentioned whether or not she went last Monday. I also did not ask. Should I have asked? I don't think it would even matter if she went or not. She's gone. 

While she was here she told me that she is going to Thailand in February with her school program then Montana to visit family in the spring. I'm thinking the whole time how the heck can she afford that but it's not my worry anymore I guess. She was supposed to send me her list of items that she wants and prioritize them by today, she hasn't yet. My question to you and everyone else is how long do I wait until I send her an email or text asking her for the list? I mean It'll be a while until I sell my house but I also want to get this portion over with.


----------



## honcho

MrPack said:


> Good question, she never mentioned whether or not she went last Monday. I also did not ask. Should I have asked? I don't think it would even matter if she went or not. She's gone.
> 
> While she was here she told me that she is going to Thailand in February with her school program then Montana to visit family in the spring. I'm thinking the whole time how the heck can she afford that but it's not my worry anymore I guess. She was supposed to send me her list of items that she wants and prioritize them by today, she hasn't yet. My question to you and everyone else is how long do I wait until I send her an email or text asking her for the list? I mean It'll be a while until I sell my house but I also want to get this portion over with.


Don't ask for the list from her. Your not her parent. Part of me says she wants you to remind her. She is gone but she hasn't let you go completely. 

I wouldn't have asked about her appointment if I were in your position either. It's just guess and conjecture on my part but even if she went she only wants to reinforce her ideas right now, not seek any enlightenment. 

She isn't thinking about affordability of trips, just adventure.


----------



## Absurdist

Everything that comes out of her mouth says "I'm done". Thailand, Montana and all such comments are duplicitous ways of saying she's through. Like most of your married life you have done everything for her. She wants you to end it for her. She doesn't have the emotional strength or maturity to do it herself. That lot falls on you.

This crap is very unfair to you. She makes the mess but you must bring out the mop to clean it up. Get out the mop MrPack. One of you must be the adult. You have it in you. The next MrsPack will get a heck of a man.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## tom67

honcho said:


> Don't ask for the list from her. Your not her parent. Part of me says she wants you to remind her. She is gone but she hasn't let you go completely.
> 
> I wouldn't have asked about her appointment if I were in your position either. It's just guess and conjecture on my part but even if she went she only wants to reinforce her ideas right now, not seek any enlightenment.
> 
> She isn't thinking about affordability of trips, just adventure.


honcho is spot on if she does ask tell her she fired you from that position.
And smile and walk away.


----------



## farsidejunky

honcho said:


> Don't ask for the list from her. Your not her parent. Part of me says she wants you to remind her. She is gone but she hasn't let you go completely.
> 
> I wouldn't have asked about her appointment if I were in your position either. It's just guess and conjecture on my part but even if she went she only wants to reinforce her ideas right now, not seek any enlightenment.
> 
> She isn't thinking about affordability of trips, just adventure.


This is spot on in every way.


----------



## Pluto2

Completely agree. Don't ask. If she doesn't give you a list, that is her CHOICE, so learn to let her live with it.

And telling you about those trips is just tacky.
So prep the house for sale (should you wait until Feb.? Around here that's the prime listing period for spring sales)


----------



## LongWalk

Mr Pack,

Sorry that you are going through this. On the good side, you didn't have children with her and you have learned tons about relationships.

I am currently with family. My father died and we have gathered together to hold a memorial for him. This has given me an opportunity to see my 18-year-old niece and my brother (her father) interact. She routinely makes rude and thoughtless statements to him and others. For example, I said that I remembered that the pool need chlorine. As I started towards the door she came up and thrust a bag of food waste for the compost towards me and ordered me to put in the compost. I declined. For having been on time, I recognized this a shyte test. I declined to submit to this. It is not a matter of not wanting to work. It was her insolent manner and this is the way she speaks to her father. She learned this from her mother (my-sister-in-law). In her relationships with men, she is going to constantly put out shyte tests that control and break down their self respect. Sex will suck some guy in and then she will take control of him (if she wants to keep him).

Your STBX still wants to shyte test, although she has moved on. You have learned not to accept the emotional bullying, the intention of which is to not create happiness.

Your WAW is not an evil person. However, she wants purpose imposed upon her. Hence her need to leave the country to do good somewhere else, an exercise that amounts to a type of self imposed shyte test. Having a child would have been an alternative but she rejected that because you did not inspire her.

When she proposed separation, do you think there was any test of you? If you had resolutely cut her off emotionally, would she have felt pulled to attract you back again? Was it too late?

She is now nothing to you but an ex. You are learning to treat her like one. In your next relationship you will not get involved with a woman like her or my niece. Your demand for respect will be higher. It's a mutual thing. You'll find a woman who values you because you value yourself.


----------



## Marduk

MrPack said:


> Good question, she never mentioned whether or not she went last Monday. I also did not ask. Should I have asked? I don't think it would even matter if she went or not. She's gone.
> 
> While she was here she told me that she is going to Thailand in February with her school program then Montana to visit family in the spring. I'm thinking the whole time how the heck can she afford that but it's not my worry anymore I guess. She was supposed to send me her list of items that she wants and prioritize them by today, she hasn't yet. My question to you and everyone else is how long do I wait until I send her an email or text asking her for the list? I mean It'll be a while until I sell my house but I also want to get this portion over with.


I want you to consider getting very, very simple and rational with your thoughts. I want you to weigh whatever is going on in your mind against two things:

a) is what I am thinking or considering beneficial for the MrPack of one year from now?
b) or is it not?

If it is a) do it. If it is b), do not.

I do not see how anything your soon to be ex wife does or does not do is in any way a).

Apathy towards her right now is your friend. 

As is compassion to yourself and anything that supports you being the man you want to be one year from now.


----------



## MrPack

Not sure why, but I've had a rough couple days. Feeling pretty down about my situation, it's like I took a step back. I'm missing what we once had, I know 100% that things will never be like that again and that our divorce is the best thing for me. But... I'm struggling, is this normal? I've been feeling so strong and good about all this recently and then all the sudden yesterday I just started feeling bad about it and myself again. I got nothing done this weekend around the house like I wanted to. My mind/emotions are just all over the place right now. Tomorrow is a new day, hopefully this will pass.


----------



## farsidejunky

Completely normal.

Even months later, you may find yourself not necessarily grieving, but at least reminiscing on what could have been.

Fitness, Pack. Go for a run; hit the gym and lift heavy; cross fit or other HIIT activity.

It will pass.

Glad you checked in, brother.


----------



## Absurdist

farsidejunky said:


> Completely normal.
> 
> Even months later, you may find yourself not necessarily grieving, but at least reminiscing on what could have been.
> 
> Fitness, Pack. Go for a run; hit the gym and lift heavy; cross fit or other HIIT activity.
> 
> It will pass.
> 
> Glad you checked in, brother.


Please listen to Farside. He's given you great advice throughout your thread.

From one of my favorite poems:

Once in Persia reigned a king
Who upon his signet ring
Graved a maxim true and wise
Which if held before his eyes
Gave him counsel at a glance
Fit for every change or chance
Solemn words and these are they
Even this shall pass away

MrPack all of this will eventually pass away. You know when Jesus finished his work on this planet he said "It is finished". It may be time to say what Jesus did so you can get off this hellish limbo roller coaster and seek out a new reality. I have all the confidence in the world that you can do it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MrPack

farsidejunky said:


> Completely normal.
> 
> Even months later, you may find yourself not necessarily grieving, but at least reminiscing on what could have been.
> 
> Fitness, Pack. Go for a run; hit the gym and lift heavy; cross fit or other HIIT activity.
> 
> It will pass.
> 
> Glad you checked in, brother.


Thank you sir for your words/advice. I've really been slacking in the fitness area recently. I need to get back into a gym routine. No excuses there, I've just been lazy. It's weird how the mind the works. One day I'm great, feeling confident in most aspects of my new life right now then a few days later I feel like garbage. The mind is a great but very frustrating thing lol. Thanks again man.


----------



## MrPack

Absurdist said:


> Please listen to Farside. He's given you great advice throughout your thread.
> 
> From one of my favorite poems:
> 
> Once in Persia reigned a king
> Who upon his signet ring
> Graved a maxim true and wise
> Which if held before his eyes
> Gave him counsel at a glance
> Fit for every change or chance
> Solemn words and these are they
> Even this shall pass away
> 
> MrPack all of this will eventually pass away. You know when Jesus finished his work on this planet he said "It is finished". It may be time to say what Jesus did so you can get off this hellish limbo roller coaster and seek out a new reality. I have all the confidence in the world that you can do it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thank you Absurdist, as usual you have a great way of putting things into perspective for me. I need to remind myself that my new reality will be great, but your right I need to get out of this limbo roller coaster. Time to pick up the pace on the house sale and getting her all moved out. I had a couple crappy days but I'll go to bed tonight knowing that tomorrow will be a better day and a new day.


----------



## TooNice

MrPack said:


> Not sure why, but I've had a rough couple days. Feeling pretty down about my situation, it's like I took a step back. I'm missing what we once had, I know 100% that things will never be like that again and that our divorce is the best thing for me. But... I'm struggling, is this normal? I've been feeling so strong and good about all this recently and then all the sudden yesterday I just started feeling bad about it and myself again. I got nothing done this weekend around the house like I wanted to. My mind/emotions are just all over the place right now. Tomorrow is a new day, hopefully this will pass.


Hey MrPack... late to the party here, but was encouraged by another member to check out your story. I apologize for the many "like" notifications that probably just showed up, but I did sit and scan through all of this thread. (And BTW, I am a fellow Packer/Badger fan, to boot!)

I am so very sorry that you have had to go through this. It sucks. Limbo is the worst kind of state to inflict on someone a person claims to care for. And an invitation to join this club is not one I would willingly extend to anyone. 

Having said that, I give you credit. All of the credit. You are doing the things you need to take care of YOU. When we are in a marriage, especially a long one, we become accustomed to the thought that we no longer have to face things alone. When we become informed that our marriage is over, we are suddenly faced with doing just that. And the best thing you can do for yourself is to stand up and do it. (While I am not a vindictive sort of girl, it's also the worst thing we can do to the other person!)

I love that you are not only seeking counseling, but recognizing when it is not feeling right for you. It is critical to your progress that you are comfortable there. I'm glad you know that. 

I also like that you seem to be familiar with the stages of grief. This is good... because you will likely be drifting between them for a bit yet. I've made it through most of them, but anger is still lingering for me. Knowing what the stages are has been monumental to my healing...to understanding what I am feeling so that I can work to identify why. I hope it works that way for you, too. 

Finally, I commend your attitude. The fact that you can have a bad day and know that tomorrow can be better is huge. Not only can it be better, but it WILL be better. You deserve so much more than a woman who treated you like she settled for you. You have a good heart, and much to give. And as many have indicated on here, when the time is right and you are ready, plenty of women will be happy to have a shot at a man like you. Don't ever settle. You deserve the happy story. Your attitude will help you to write it!

Anyway, please continue your updates. The people here are really amazing. I wish so much collective experience did not exist, but at least we can use it to a positive end. 

Hang in there - tomorrow WILL be better.


----------



## Archangel2

Archangel2 said:


> ...Your wife strikes me as the type who does not know what she's got till it's gone. So give her what she thinks she wants. BE GONE! I hope you can successfully detach and work toward the next chapter of your life. There are many good women out there who will appreciate a good, faithful man. Please don't waste any more time on this self-entitled hypocrite...


MrPack - I re-posted the above to remind you what your ultimate goal should be. I will continue to re-post this as many times as necessary to help you get out of your funk.

Wishing you peace and strength.


----------



## MrPack

TooNice said:


> Hey MrPack... late to the party here, but was encouraged by another member to check out your story. I apologize for the many "like" notifications that probably just showed up, but I did sit and scan through all of this thread. (And BTW, I am a fellow Packer/Badger fan, to boot!)
> 
> I am so very sorry that you have had to go through this. It sucks. Limbo is the worst kind of state to inflict on someone a person claims to care for. And an invitation to join this club is not one I would willingly extend to anyone.
> 
> Having said that, I give you credit. All of the credit. You are doing the things you need to take care of YOU. When we are in a marriage, especially a long one, we become accustomed to the thought that we no longer have to face things alone. When we become informed that our marriage is over, we are suddenly faced with doing just that. And the best thing you can do for yourself is to stand up and do it. (While I am not a vindictive sort of girl, it's also the worst thing we can do to the other person!)
> 
> I love that you are not only seeking counseling, but recognizing when it is not feeling right for you. It is critical to your progress that you are comfortable there. I'm glad you know that.
> 
> I also like that you seem to be familiar with the stages of grief. This is good... because you will likely be drifting between them for a bit yet. I've made it through most of them, but anger is still lingering for me. Knowing what the stages are has been monumental to my healing...to understanding what I am feeling so that I can work to identify why. I hope it works that way for you, too.
> 
> Finally, I commend your attitude. The fact that you can have a bad day and know that tomorrow can be better is huge. Not only can it be better, but it WILL be better. You deserve so much more than a woman who treated you like she settled for you. You have a good heart, and much to give. And as many have indicated on here, when the time is right and you are ready, plenty of women will be happy to have a shot at a man like you. Don't ever settle. You deserve the happy story. Your attitude will help you to write it!
> 
> Anyway, please continue your updates. The people here are really amazing. I wish so much collective experience did not exist, but at least we can use it to a positive end.
> 
> Hang in there - tomorrow WILL be better.


Thank yoo so very much for your kind words and for takign the time to read through my thread. I am feeling much better today, maybe its the distraction of being at work but definatley having a better attitude towards all of this today than I had the last couple days.

I feel so blessed to have so many of you here on TAM that do care and offer so much to my healing process. Honeslty I could not do this without all of you. I thank god that I found this site when I did.


----------



## Pluto2

I understand about the distraction of work for taking your mind off things. I bet that's why the weekends can be the time when we feel down about the end of the relationship. It takes time. I know that sometimes sounds trite, but given time, you will develop your new life and you will feel stronger any 'ol day of the week.


----------



## farsidejunky

A little support goes a long way. Key to that is accepting it.

When I was in your shoes, I was too angry to accept support. I buried my pain in alcohol and one night stands. It likely retarded my healing by miles.

Keep doing what you are doing, brother.


----------



## Absurdist

MrPack - you're in rarefied air. You now have both Pluto2 and Two Nice posting in your thread. Two terrific ladies. I'm surprised a Ryan Gosling type hasn't whisked both of them away by now. :wink2:

You absolutely and positively need to see a lawyer. I'm not trying to drum up work for my profession but you need to know all the legal consequences at play here.

Stay strong my friend. You are doing well. There is an old adage that I use ... "inch by inch is a cinch but yard by yard is very hard". You are inching along but you are making progress.


----------



## TooNice

I second getting a lawyer. I used to work for attorneys, and was fortunate to be able to sit down with one I trusted when I first moved out. He said the exact same thing to me-that I needed a lawyer. Not a pit bull, but someone to advocate for me. He recommended someone who did just that. 

Six months since my final court date, I never regretted it for a minute.


----------



## MrPack

TooNice said:


> I second getting a lawyer. I used to work for attorneys, and was fortunate to be able to sit down with one I trusted when I first moved out. He said the exact same thing to me-that I needed a lawyer. Not a pit bull, but someone to advocate for me. He recommended someone who did just that.
> 
> Six months since my final court date, I never regretted it for a minute.


I'm happy to say that I got a number to a lawyer recommended by a friend from work today. It'll be hard to take that next step but I know it needs to happen.


----------



## TooNice

MrPack said:


> I'm happy to say that I got a number to a lawyer recommended by a friend from work today. It'll be hard to take that next step but I know it needs to happen.


I'm glad to hear this. It is very hard, I understand that so very well. But looking back, for me that next step was the first step in taking charge of my life. I hope you can see it that way, too.


----------



## LongWalk

You were accustomed to your wife. You loved her. But your marriage is over. The quicker you divorce her, the sooner, you'll recover.

Is she involved with a bartender?


----------



## MrPack

LongWalk said:


> You were accustomed to your wife. You loved her. But your marriage is over. The quicker you divorce her, the sooner, you'll recover.
> 
> Is she involved with a bartender?


I dont know what is going on with the "bartender" guy. Since we still share the same phone plan I look every once in a while and still see communication between the two of them but also a bunch of other numbers I dont recognize. No matter what is happening or what was happening with her and that idiot it doesnt change anything, the marriage is over. There will be a day however that I approach her about it, not sure when that'll be. Could be as soon as a week from now or months from now. I just havent found the right moment to bring it up I guess.


----------



## Marduk

Stop looking at her ****. 

Start looking at your **** and figure out what behaviours need to change on your side to get to the vision of MrPackQ32016.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MrPack

marduk said:


> Stop looking at her ****.
> 
> Start looking at your **** and figure out what behaviours need to change on your side to get to the vision of MrPackQ32016.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The only reason we still share the same phone plan is because it's cheaper. But I can afford to branch off on my own plan 100%. And she'll figure out a way to have her own plan, plus it's not my worry. Do you think this is something I should make a priority? I know it isnt good that I still look at phone records, but I've been putting it off changing the plan to get my own.


----------



## Marduk

MrPack said:


> The only reason we still share the same phone plan is because it's cheaper. But I can afford to branch off on my own plan 100%. And she'll figure out a way to have her own plan, plus it's not my worry. Do you think this is something I should make a priority? I know it isnt good that I still look at phone records, but I've been putting it off changing the plan to get my own.


I think anything that stops you from thinking about her at all should be a priority.

If that means getting a new phone, so be it.


----------



## tom67

marduk said:


> I think anything that stops you from thinking about her at all should be a priority.
> 
> If that means getting a new phone, so be it.


Go to wallyworld and get a pay as you go phone.


----------



## Marduk

tom67 said:


> Go to wallyworld and get a pay as you go phone.


Or, for me, I didn't give a damn about my ex wife's phone. I just got a new girlfriend.

Suddenly, I stopped thinking about that cold hearted son of a...


----------



## MrPack

I don't think I've touched on this yet but keep in mind I live in a "community property state". Because of this whatever profit I make on the sale of the house half goes to her even though its under my name. 

With that said, she had told me a couple weeks ago that she wasn't "comfortable" accepting half of the profit from the sale of the house and actually said she wasn't sure she would accept any money from the sale of the house. She knew it was legally hers to take but said that she "didnt contribute much of anything financially to the house I bought while we were married". I knew that as time went on she'd change her mind. Well today I got a text from her asking "how are things going with the sale of the house". I said it;s going and I'm planning to have a realtor come by no later than 3 weeks from now. I also asked her why she is all the sudden concerned about it. Well low and behold she changed her mind. She does want her half of the profit, I cannot fight this it is legally hers. So be it... Anyway I was pretty short and cold with her during our text conversation saying that I have my own schedule with this house thing and that I dont need her pressuring me about it. She told me that she is trying to plan ahead with where she will live in a few months hence the reason why she now wants half of what I make on the house. This is the best part, I told her she needed to calm down and realize these things take time plus I dont even know how much I'll get for the house. She said that she looked online and saw that our house is worth 30k more than what I bought it for. She honestly looked at a stupid website and used that to gauge or fill her head with how much money would be coming her way. I had to remind her of realtor fees and the fact that zillow is just a WEBSITE! For someone in medical school she still reminds me of how stupid she really is with everyday life responsibilities and common sense. 

Needless to say I was pretty mad this afternoon after our text conversation. She said she isnt pressuring me but was just seeing how things were going with all of this. Yea right...she wants her money and wants to know when she'll get it.


----------



## Tobyboy

MrPack said:


> I don't think I've touched on this yet but keep in mind I live in a "community property state". Because of this whatever profit I make on the sale of the house half goes to her even though its under my name.
> 
> With that said, she had told me a couple weeks ago that she wasn't "comfortable" accepting half of the profit from the sale of the house and actually said she wasn't sure she would accept any money from the sale of the house. She knew it was legally hers to take but said that she "didnt contribute much of anything financially to the house I bought while we were married". I knew that as time went on she'd change her mind. Well today I got a text from her asking "how are things going with the sale of the house". I said it;s going and I'm planning to have a realtor come by no later than 3 weeks from now. I also asked her why she is all the sudden concerned about it. Well low and behold she changed her mind. She does want her half of the profit, I cannot fight this it is legally hers. So be it... Anyway I was pretty short and cold with her during our text conversation saying that I have my own schedule with this house thing and that I dont need her pressuring me about it. She told me that she is trying to plan ahead with where she will live in a few months hence the reason why she now wants half of what I make on the house. This is the best part, I told her she needed to calm down and realize these things take time plus I dont even know how much I'll get for the house. She said that she looked online and saw that our house is worth 30k more than what I bought it for. She honestly looked at a stupid website and used that to gauge or fill her head with how much money would be coming her way. I had to remind her of realtor fees and the fact that zillow is just a WEBSITE! For someone in medical school she still reminds me of how stupid she really is with everyday life responsibilities and common sense.
> 
> Needless to say I was pretty mad this afternoon after our text conversation. She said she isnt pressuring me but was just seeing how things were going with all of this. Yea right...she wants her money and wants to know when she'll get it.


This is why you need a lawyer.....now!!!
Is she paying half the mortgage? Is she paying bills? Is helping you fix the house for selling? All expenses should be shared!!! If not you should get compensated from the profits of the house!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TooNice

A lawyer will help guide you though what the norm is, and how to best navigate your individual situation. 

I know you have a referral, I'm just backing up that it's the right thing.

Hang in there...


----------



## honcho

MrPack said:


> I don't think I've touched on this yet but keep in mind I live in a "community property state". Because of this whatever profit I make on the sale of the house half goes to her even though its under my name.
> 
> With that said, she had told me a couple weeks ago that she wasn't "comfortable" accepting half of the profit from the sale of the house and actually said she wasn't sure she would accept any money from the sale of the house. She knew it was legally hers to take but said that she "didnt contribute much of anything financially to the house I bought while we were married". I knew that as time went on she'd change her mind. Well today I got a text from her asking "how are things going with the sale of the house". I said it;s going and I'm planning to have a realtor come by no later than 3 weeks from now. I also asked her why she is all the sudden concerned about it. Well low and behold she changed her mind. She does want her half of the profit, I cannot fight this it is legally hers. So be it... Anyway I was pretty short and cold with her during our text conversation saying that I have my own schedule with this house thing and that I dont need her pressuring me about it. She told me that she is trying to plan ahead with where she will live in a few months hence the reason why she now wants half of what I make on the house. This is the best part, I told her she needed to calm down and realize these things take time plus I dont even know how much I'll get for the house. She said that she looked online and saw that our house is worth 30k more than what I bought it for. She honestly looked at a stupid website and used that to gauge or fill her head with how much money would be coming her way. I had to remind her of realtor fees and the fact that zillow is just a WEBSITE! For someone in medical school she still reminds me of how stupid she really is with everyday life responsibilities and common sense.
> 
> Needless to say I was pretty mad this afternoon after our text conversation. She said she isnt pressuring me but was just seeing how things were going with all of this. Yea right...she wants her money and wants to know when she'll get it.


The last words my crazy stbx ever spoke to me were "I dont want your money just my freedom." 3 years later and nothing but bloodbath chasing literally every nickel she feels "entitled " to. Never believe anyone who says they want nothing.

Your stbx is starting to realize that with this free independent life she lusts for usually it takes cash to fund all the fun. 

This is one of those things you should also think about with your house. I know you mentioned doing some repairs etc to get ready to sell. In essence your only going to get 50 cents on the dollar you spend. How much do you really want to invest to lose half. It's not like she will pay for half of the repairs.


----------



## farsidejunky

Pack, you know where she stands on the house now. There is really nothing else she can pursue, right?

1. Stop answering her texts. Go completely dark.

2. Get off of the mutual phone plan.

3. Consult an attorney. 

4. File.

You know where she stands. There is nothing left. That last shred of hope you are hanging on to? The sooner you snip it, the sooner you can begin to heal.


----------



## LongWalk

If she were in a traditional medical school, she could borrow money. Banks want future physicians among their customers.

She is pursuing an education that is flimsy. Your money is real.

Cut her off.

End the shared phone plan.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

I cringed when I read your post.


> *I also asked her why *she is all the sudden concerned about it.


STOP ENGAGING HER. 

Sorry. I know it is hard, but you open yourself up for pain when you see she is planning a future without you.



Don't ask her anything as it will always put you in a bad mood. "It'll be done, when it gets done" would be my answer from now on, if you can't stop yourself from talking. Yes, she has a right to her assets, but she is not entitled to explanations and answers on her timetable. She left, explanations stopped when she compromised the marriage. She left you, any financial responsibilities and any input to the shared part of your lives is over. If she was your non-separated loving wife yes, you would owe her explanations and to be understanding when she looked at zillow. 

You have assumed she is cheating, I agree, as luvmyjava found out after he was warned, her new man, men, and friends are now giving her advice. We see it all of the time. Guy posts wife said this, we warn him she will do the opposite and lo and behold she does what we said.

This is the first step in ugliness. Get a new phone plan, get a new phone, get a lawyer and limit conversations.


----------



## turnera

MrPack said:


> I'm happy to say that I got a number to a lawyer recommended by a friend from work today. It'll be hard to take that next step but I know it needs to happen.


My ex-SIL cheated on my brother, wanted a divorce, said it would be quick and easy, she just wanted out. A year later, he's finally divorced - MINUS half his VERY sizable 401k, and more than she was entitled to, because she had a lawyer from the beginning and he trusted her and didn't get one. And she played dirty. Her lawyer gave him a 1-day heads-up about some thing that was about to happen and if he didn't have a lawyer respond, he'd have lost his house (don't ask me, I don't remember the technical stuff). He had half a day to find a lawyer and show up in court to defend himself or lose it.

PLEASE do not trust her to be nice. My ex-SIL turned into someone I don't recognize and I have no desire to ever speak to her again.


----------



## Vulcan2013

I would remind her she said she wasn't entitled to half the house. At least challenge her. Nothing to lose. And do it by email. 

When she brings stuff up, it seems like she's slipping it past you. You need to challenge that. And lawyer up!


----------



## manfromlamancha

Vulcan2013 said:


> I would remind her she said she wasn't entitled to half the house. At least challenge her. Nothing to lose. And do it by email.
> 
> When she brings stuff up, it seems like she's slipping it past you. You need to challenge that. And lawyer up!


:iagree::iagree:


----------



## Pluto2

Stop stop stop engaging her.

Get your own phone plan. When I confronted my ex, one of the first things I did was saw I refuse to pay his phone bill (I found lots of sexting and hook-ups on his "secret" phone he put on our plan-idiot)

Please go see a lawyer. More "issues" will rear their ugly heads as this drags on.

We want you to get to that lovely 50,000 foot elevation in a break-up where you actually stop caring about who she's contacting. This can't happen when you go check it out. She has told you that she is making plans for her future that do not involve you, only your money. Don't make it any easier for her than is necessary. And in that regard, remind her -through your attorney-of her previous agreement not to take half of the profit from the house. Until then, stop engaging her.


----------



## Absurdist

MrPack you probably think people have come to beat you up today. In a sense, they are. But they do so because they care about you and want you to crawl out of the quicksand and go about your life.

Quit trying to think about MrsPack and her motives... or what she's thinking... or where her head/heart might be. You will *never* figure it out. It's a worthless navel-gazing exercise in futility.

Go see the lawyer as soon as you can. That person can help you chart a path. He or she can keep you grounded in reality.

We all know you don't want to do this. It sucks that it's forced upon you. But it's the thing that finally opens the door to a new life for you. MrPack you will have a new life. And it will be a good one.


----------



## Chaparral

Did you read the MMSLP book linked to below yet?

Probably sooner than later, you are going to look back on this as getting rid of a dead weight.


----------



## Marduk

Chaparral said:


> Did you read the MMSLP book linked to below yet?
> 
> Probably sooner than later, you are going to look back on this as getting rid of a dead weight.


More like lancing a boil on your ass.


----------



## MrPack

Sorry I didn't respond sooner to you all. It's been a crazy day at work and I'm still working while I sit here at home. Thank you ALL so much for your advice. I think it's pretty clear the common theme here is I need to talk to a lawyer, I'm calling first thing tomorrow morning. 

You guys are right I need to stop engaging her and stop caring about what she's done, I will also get my own phone plan within the next couple days. Do I just send her a text saying "hey I'm getting my own plan you have X amount if days to figure yours out". I know most of you will say just do it and don't tell her but I don't want to cause anymore drama than there needs to be. 

It's hard because I'm trying to keep the peaCe so things don't get nasty but I also need to stop catering to her and concentrate on myself only.


----------



## farsidejunky

Let her know.

Don't confuse detachment with contempt.

"STBXW, I will be separating our phone plan tomorrow. I am letting you know so it does not come as a surprise."

Any guff, bluster or anything other than something like "okay" is to be ignored.


----------



## turnera

I like to tell people to start thinking of the stbx as the mailman. Would you be over-invested in how you talk to the mailman, or would you just say what you need to say? You'll be polite, of course, but you wouldn't attribute her any more importance than anyone else. Once this is done with, she will be nothing more to you than the mailman. So start treating her that way.


----------



## TooNice

MrPack said:


> It's hard because I'm trying to keep the peaCe so things don't get nasty but I also need to stop catering to her and concentrate on myself only.


This last bit is something I can so relate to. I just wanted things to be peaceful, too. But the bottom line is exactly what you said - you need to concentrate on you. 

I will add one bit of advice to the lawyer piece. Make sure you are comfortable and feel at ease with the lawyer you retain. I know you said you have a referral, so that's good. I fully trusted mine, and it made things so much better for me. It makes me cringe when I hear stories from acquaintances who don't feel like their attorneys are looking out for them. 

Mine did a great job, and I realized after it was over, that he never once asked me for details about the marriage itself. For all I know, he had no idea that my ex had a long term OW. Those facts had no bearing on my settlement. 

Just keep concentrating on you. You've got this.


----------



## LongWalk

The more totalitarian you are in purging from your life, the greater the likelihood that she'll attempt to insinuate herself back into it.

WantWifeBack, a young guy whose wife left him to try other men, got over her. Months later as divorce loomed, she wanted to have sex and try again, but he was done with her.

Ironically when you treat your STBX as the person you are dumping, she will feel a little pang of hurt. You will be the ghost husband.


----------



## MrPack

Hello everyone, hope you all had a great weekend. I just got home, took a drive up north with some friends to see and stay with my buddies parents. I had a great time but it was a little hard because my STBXW and I used to go up there a lot together. It is weird though I miss what we used to have when things were good, but I DO NOT miss her and who she has become over the past couple years. 

Sort of a big week, I have my buddy who is going to be my realtor coming over this week to start the process, I left a message with the lawyers office and should hear back from them tomorrow. Its a little tough taking these steps towards my new life but I also know that I have no choice...I deserve to find my happiness again.


----------



## farsidejunky

Good job, Pack.

One step at a time.


----------



## Marduk

There will be a day, in the not too distant future, where you don't think about her at all. For 24 hours straight.

It will feel odd when you realize it. A bit sad, a bit odd, but mostly joyful. Look forward to it.


----------



## LongWalk

You are getting there.

A few more months and you won't be hurting.

She is not worth the heart ache she has caused.

You could read LostLove's thread. He had a bad case of oneitis but has moved on.


----------



## Absurdist

You're a work in progress MrPack. You'll get there.... just not all at once.


----------



## MrPack

Thanks guys. It's funny more and more people from work and old friends are hearing about our soon to be divorce and are coming out of the woodwork asking questions. I keep it short and simple, everyone loves drama but drama is something I do not need right now. 

I have gotten a couple "oh I should introduce you to my niece/friends daughter/neighbors daughters dog sitters neighbor" type of stuff lol. At some point I'll take those offers serious but I'm not ready for that yet.


----------



## TooNice

MrPack said:


> Thanks guys. It's funny more and more people from work and old friends are hearing about our soon to be divorce and are coming out of the woodwork asking questions. I keep it short and simple, everyone loves drama but drama is something I do not need right now.
> 
> I have gotten a couple "oh I should introduce you to my niece/friends daughter/neighbors daughters dog sitters neighbor" type of stuff lol. At some point I'll take those offers serious but I'm not ready for that yet.


Sounds like you are really taking things in stride - that is a good thing! And really great that you can recognize that you don't think you are ready to date yet. You're on no one's schedule but your own.


----------



## Marduk

MrPack said:


> Thanks guys. It's funny more and more people from work and old friends are hearing about our soon to be divorce and are coming out of the woodwork asking questions. I keep it short and simple, everyone loves drama but drama is something I do not need right now.
> 
> I have gotten a couple "oh I should introduce you to my niece/friends daughter/neighbors daughters dog sitters neighbor" type of stuff lol. At some point I'll take those offers serious but I'm not ready for that yet.


My advice?

Make friends with a few high-quality women... and don't sleep with them.

Just be friends. Women are amazing. It's hard to be angry with womankind when you're around good women. Plus, they can give you women's perspectives and honest opinions on things, which are very valuable.

And then, when you're ready, they'll be glad to hook you up with all their single friends. Just be a good guy and honest about where you're at, ok?


----------



## LongWalk

People will ask her why.

It will be interesting if she tells them that she wants to go to poor countries and treat the poor with new age remedies and that there was no room on the plane for you, though she doesn't even know to which country she is going.


----------



## honcho

LongWalk said:


> People will ask her why.
> 
> It will be interesting if she tells them that she wants to go to poor countries and treat the poor with new age remedies and that there was no room on the plane for you, though she doesn't even know to which country she is going.


She hasn't made him the monster as the reason for leaving so she will probably go with the ever general means nothing ”we drifted apart”
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MrPack

honcho said:


> She hasn't made him the monster as the reason for leaving so she will probably go with the ever general means nothing ”we drifted apart”
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Spot on, this is basically the main reason she gives me including me as to why we are where we are now. It is true but in my mind she drifted away from me a long time ago because of the decisions she made. I sometimes feel lied to, when we married she told me she wanted the family life as the years went on she slowly changed and here we are.


----------



## Marduk

MrPack said:


> Spot on, this is basically the main reason she gives me including me as to why we are where we are now. It is true but in my mind she drifted away from me a long time ago because of the decisions she made. I sometimes feel lied to, when we married she told me she wanted the family life as the years went on she slowly changed and here we are.


Focus on your feelings, not trying to figure out hers.

She is the past.

You are the future.


----------



## Absurdist

Absurdist said:


> MrPac - I have read this board but have never posted. I feel compelled to do so today.
> 
> Your situation is so similar to a young man I was a mentor to it is almost startling. I felt so bad for him and feel bad for you. Sometimes my young friend was able to collect himself and other times he wanted to smash a closet wall... or go sit in the closet and cry. All these emotions are normal... they will pass in due time.
> 
> I think you wife is somewhat disingenuous. There is no way a med student graduates from medical school and then goes and finds her place in the sun. She has 3, 4, 5 or more years of residency in her future. She will be working 6 and sometimes 7 days a week. Since she is 29, she won't come up for air until age 40 much less travel and be a doc in some exotic location. Not to mention the huge amount of student debt she will incur and have to repay. She is either out of touch with reality or she is shooting you a line a BS.
> 
> Ah yes, the old "I love you and want to be best friends routine". This is bunk. You don't go from an intimate relationship to friends. This is simply a means by which your wife is absolving herself from guilt.
> 
> MRPack - right now you are in this terrible Chinese water torture h3ll of limbo. You don't know if you are going or coming and she keeps sending you these mixed messages. You can't go on like this forever. It will take a toll on your physical and emotional health. My young friend finally told his wife that she had to decide if she wanted to commit or get a divorce. "I don't know" was not an acceptable answer and would be taken that she opts for divorce. He gave her a month to respond one way or the other. She didn't so he took the only path he could take.
> 
> You seem to have good male friends. I urge you to hash this out with them. If they are good friends they will speak honestly with you and tell you things you may not want to hear but you need to hear.
> 
> The idea that you won't be able to find a new relationship is nutty. You are 32, unattached and with a good job. *The wives of your married friends will fall all over themselves trying to play cupid and set you up. They live for such things. Quite frankly, women will find you. All you have to do is get yourself out into social situations even if you don't feel like it.*
> 
> I will continue to follow this thread and maybe post a time or two. I have a vested interest in you now. You can do this whatever it may be.


MrPack this was my initial post in your thread.

This is in response to your post no. 603.

Yes, I am a prophet. 

Let me quote another prophet... Lou Holtz. _Things are never as good as they seem or as bad as they seem._

You are getting close to the mountain top. You still have to navigate a crevasse or two but you are getting there.


----------



## MrPack

I emailed my wife a couple days ago regarding the fact that she still hadnt gotten her own car insurance and still hadnt changed her direct deposit to her own account. Well she emailed me back yesterday, has her own insurance and is going to the bank today to remove herself from my account. I'm glad she did these things but it was still tough to sit back and think about how the steps towards a life without her are beginning.

The common theme that I keep hearing from family and friends of mine are that I will find someone at some point who will love me for me and have the same life goals/values. It feels good to hear that but it's still tough to see that right now. I am anxious to get my house sold, trade in my old SUV and finally get myself a nice vehicle and move foward. My plan is once I sell and move out of my house I will start the divorce process, right now it feels weird saying and thinking about that but I dont know that it has fully hit me yet. I think the hardest thing right now is seeing coworkers and friends happily married or in relationships, I miss that. But then again I feel like I've somewhat enjoyed my independance recently.


----------



## Pluto2

MrPack said:


> I emailed my wife a couple days ago regarding the fact that she still hadnt gotten her own car insurance and still hadnt changed her direct deposit to her own account. Well she emailed me back yesterday, has her own insurance and is going to the bank today to remove herself from my account. I'm glad she did these things but it was still tough to sit back and think about how the steps towards a life without her are beginning.
> 
> The common theme that I keep hearing from family and friends of mine are that I will find someone at some point who will love me for me and have the same life goals/values. It feels good to hear that but it's still tough to see that right now. I am anxious to get my house sold, trade in my old SUV and finally get myself a nice vehicle and move foward. My plan is once I sell and move out of my house I will start the divorce process, right now it feels weird saying and thinking about that but I dont know that it has fully hit me yet. I think the hardest thing right now is seeing coworkers and friends happily married or in relationships, I miss that. But then again I feel like I've somewhat enjoyed my independance recently.


You are feeling exactly the way anyone would feel in this situation. Mourning the loss of a relationship and hopeful for a better future.

So, plans for the weekend? Going out with friends? Meetup.com?


----------



## MrPack

Pluto2 said:


> You are feeling exactly the way anyone would feel in this situation. Mourning the loss of a relationship and hopeful for a better future.
> 
> So, plans for the weekend? Going out with friends? Meetup.com?


This weekend my dad is coming over Saturday morning to help me with some minor repairs around the house then I have a fantasy football draft in the afternoon followed by a bbq at a buddies house that evening. Sunday I'll probably end up at my parents house for dinner in the evening for a nice home cooked meal. 

As for tonight, I'm really pushing myself to start packing up stuff. I have a garage full of empty boxes waiting to be filled. My wifes office is jam packed with crap so I'm going to tackle that tonight while blasting some music. I would tell her to come pack it up herself but I dont feel like having her here for hours and who knows when she would even make the time to do it. I'll box it up and label it, throw it in the garage and let her know she can come pick it up. 

I'm really making the sale of my house a priority. Once that is done and I'm moved out I'll start the divorce process and get myself back out there meeting new people. Thats the plan anway....


----------



## Pluto2

MrPack said:


> This weekend my dad is coming over Saturday morning to help me with some minor repairs around the house then I have a fantasy football draft in the afternoon followed by a bbq at a buddies house that evening. Sunday I'll probably end up at my parents house for dinner in the evening for a nice home cooked meal.
> 
> As for tonight, I'm really pushing myself to start packing up stuff. I have a garage full of empty boxes waiting to be filled. My wifes office is jam packed with crap so I'm going to tackle that tonight while blasting some music. I would tell her to come pack it up herself but I dont feel like having her here for hours and who knows when she would even make the time to do it. I'll box it up and label it, throw it in the garage and let her know she can come pick it up.
> 
> I'm really making the sale of my house a priority. Once that is done and I'm moved out I'll start the divorce process and get myself back out there meeting new people. Thats the plan anway....


I'm going to spend the weekend getting the small tress out of my gutters.

No judgement.


----------



## Absurdist

Pluto2 said:


> I'm going to spend the weekend getting the small tress out of my gutters.
> 
> No judgement.


Wow Pluto... talk about living on the edge.

MrPack - you are developing a plan. It does not matter whether anyone here agrees with it. It's* your* plan.


I'm not surprised she didn't get the rest of the crap in her office. You're cleaning up after her as you usually do. She needs a "keeper". I'm wondering what she will do when you are no longer around to keep her focused and bring order to her life.


----------



## MrPack

Shes coming over this afternoon to pick up more stuff. Me being the person I am I sent her a text yesterday and said that I was starting to pack up her office and wanted to give her one last chance to come do it herself. Maybe I shouldn't have done that but it felt right to me. Anyway I found out that she is going to Mexico again next weekend for another med mission trip. You know, I have a lot of respect for people who take time out of their life to help the less fortunate but it stings a bit seeing that she has taken two of these trips in the past 3 months. I look back at how she never had time to work on our marriage and uses the excuse of being so busy all the time but she finds the time for trips to Mexico. Sort a kick in the gut type of feeling. 

A good friend of mine's girlfriend was talking to me last night and asked how I was doing with all this crap. She was surprised when I told her that I plan on being the one to file for divorce. She thinks that my wife should be the one to do it since she is the one who initiated the split. I explained to her that if I sit here and wait for my wife to file who knows how long it'll take or if it would ever happen. My friends girlfriend just finished nursing school and we started talking about how she is going to keep an eye on some of her good looking fellow nurses for me lol. It feels good to have conversations like that knowing that other people see that I am a good guy and want to hook me up with people but it's also weird that I'm at that point with all of this where my friends are helping me move along with my new life. 

Last night I went to a bbq at my buddies house and saw a lot of old friends that I hadn't seen in a while. It was nice but also got annoying because naturally I was asked a lot of questions about my situation. It is what it is so I'm not going to hide it from people but last night I just wasn't in the mood to talk about it. I only stayed for a couple hours and left, a couple buddies of mine sent me text messages giving me crap for leaving so early but I dunno...I just didn't want to be there plus I was pretty tired haven't been sleeping very well lately. 

Anyway I hope you all had a great weekend, just wanted to check in. I'm looking forward to the days that I can come on here and have nothing but positive things to say, it'll come I know it will with time.


----------



## TooNice

MrPack,
Wow, I can relate to the things you are going through in so many ways. That "kick in the gut" feeling, too. My ex NEVER took weekend trips with me - he was always working, or we couldn't spend the money, or whatever the excuse of the day was. Funny how once I moved out, he was going on golfing trips with his buddies, or the timeshare we never used was calling my cell to confirm reservations. Hmph. I wondered too, if we could have worked it out if he had dedicated more time to us, but then I realized that things are better this way. That becomes more and more clear as time goes by.

I'm so glad that you have a good support network and good friends. That validation can be really helpful. Even if you know in your heart that you are a good guy and doing the right thing, those people will help you to remember that in the moments you will need it most. 

My little PSA... I encourage you to stay on top of the not sleeping thing... I'm not a huge advocate of medicating, but there are some good prescription sleep aids that are non-addictive. (But please, see a shrink for that, not your general practitioner!) For me personally, I am a hot mess emotionally when I don't sleep. While I coped really well through my split, when I wasn't sleeping, my emotions were all over the place. 

Lastly, I will say again and again that I am so impressed with your attitude. *"I'm looking forward to the days that I can come on here and have nothing but positive things to say, it'll come I know it will with time."* I LOVE THIS. You've got this. You're going to be just fine.


----------



## Marc878

Good luck to you. I just read your thread.

Probably the quicker the better. 

The separation was actually when she divorced you.

The rest was just wasting your time. 

The good thing is you're young and should recover quickly.


----------



## MrPack

TooNice said:


> MrPack,
> Wow, I can relate to the things you are going through in so many ways. That "kick in the gut" feeling, too. My ex NEVER took weekend trips with me - he was always working, or we couldn't spend the money, or whatever the excuse of the day was. Funny how once I moved out, he was going on golfing trips with his buddies, or the timeshare we never used was calling my cell to confirm reservations. Hmph. I wondered too, if we could have worked it out if he had dedicated more time to us, but then I realized that things are better this way. That becomes more and more clear as time goes by.
> 
> I'm so glad that you have a good support network and good friends. That validation can be really helpful. Even if you know in your heart that you are a good guy and doing the right thing, those people will help you to remember that in the moments you will need it most.
> 
> *My little PSA... I encourage you to stay on top of the not sleeping thing... I'm not a huge advocate of medicating, but there are some good prescription sleep aids that are non-addictive. (But please, see a shrink for that, not your general practitioner!) For me personally, I am a hot mess emotionally when I don't sleep. While I coped really well through my split, when I wasn't sleeping, my emotions were all over the place. *
> 
> Lastly, I will say again and again that I am so impressed with your attitude. *"I'm looking forward to the days that I can come on here and have nothing but positive things to say, it'll come I know it will with time."* I LOVE THIS. You've got this. You're going to be just fine.


Yea I was just talking to my dad about my lack of sleep lately. I've noticed my emotions are on high alert and worse since I've been struggling with sleep. I'm going to look into seeing someone this week about that and just about other coping issues I'm having with all this. I'll probably call my Employee Assistance Program and get a list of names, shrinks not just a nurse practitioner or general practitioner I know they wouldn't do much good.

As for my attitude I'm trying hard to keep it as positive as I can but I'm still all over the place with my mood. But I'm doing my best.

Thanks again for your words and encouragement, I really really appreciate it.


----------



## MrPack

Marc878 said:


> Good luck to you. I just read your thread.
> 
> Probably the quicker the better.
> 
> The separation was actually when she divorced you.
> 
> The rest was just wasting your time.
> 
> The good thing is you're young and should recover quickly.


Thank you for taking the time to read my story and thank you for advice, it's been rough but I'm just trying to put one foot in front of the other and get through this.


----------



## Marduk

@MrPack you're doing fine.

Keep hanging out with positive people who have your back... and then, you know, let them have your back, OK?

And stop inviting her back into your life. You're never going to get the kind of resolution or validation from her that you are looking for. She will run and hide from reality, and you will interpret that as her not caring. 

So just don't go there.


----------



## MrPack

Well I cant say that I'm surprised, I just got a text from her and she isn't coming over today to pack up some of her stuff. Her excuse was that "she really needs to study for her test tomorrow". I replied with "if you cant make it over here within the next few days I'll start packing for you". She's coming Wednesday morning, I wont be here so it should be interesting to see how much she actually gets done. I'm not going to lie I'm pretty upset right now, I'm trying to be as amicable as I can while keeping my integrity but it's getting harder and harder. Again I go back to the fact that she cant take 2 hours out of her Sunday to pack but she can spend a whole weekend in another country for a mission trip. This was the last straw for me in terms of doing things on her schedule. The next time she cancels or postpones something like this I wont give her another chance I'll just do it myself. I just want to punch a hole in my wall right now and scream, I was having a great day up until now.


----------



## Marduk

MrPack said:


> Well I cant say that I'm surprised, I just got a text from her and she isn't coming over today to pack up some of her stuff. Her excuse was that "she really needs to study for her test tomorrow". I replied with "if you cant make it over here within the next few days I'll start packing for you". She's coming Wednesday morning, I wont be here so it should be interesting to see how much she actually gets done. I'm not going to lie I'm pretty upset right now, I'm trying to be as amicable as I can while keeping my integrity but it's getting harder and harder. Again I go back to the fact that she cant take 2 hours out of her Sunday to pack but she can spend a whole weekend in another country for a mission trip. This was the last straw for me in terms of doing things on her schedule. The next time she cancels or postpones something like this I wont give her another chance I'll just do it myself. I just want to punch a hole in my wall right now and scream, I was having a great day up until now.


You're playing into her dynamic, @MrPack.

Pack her stuff up and leave it on the lawn. Text her that she better come get it before someone else does.

Then, never speak to her again unless it's through a lawyer. At least until you can go a solid week without thinking about her at all.


----------



## MrPack

marduk said:


> @MrPack you're doing fine.
> 
> Keep hanging out with positive people who have your back... and then, you know, let them have your back, OK?
> 
> And stop inviting her back into your life. You're never going to get the kind of resolution or validation from her that you are looking for. She will run and hide from reality, and you will interpret that as her not caring.
> 
> So just don't go there.


I know I'm not helping myself by still letting her back into my life but I just want to get this house sold and our stuff split up. ONce that is done I'm done with her and with our old life. This storm isn't over yet but its getting there.


----------



## TooNice

Sadly, you will see her true colors show more and more as time goes on. She is selfish and on her own agenda now. It sounds cold, but you will likely become less and less surprised by her behavior. That's part of healing, though... and you moving on. 

Sorry her actions have turned your day. Go do something for you, if you can. Get away for a bit. Or go to the gym and hit a bag for awhile.


----------



## Marduk

MrPack said:


> I know I'm not helping myself by still letting her back into my life but I just want to get this house sold and our stuff split up. ONce that is done I'm done with her and with our old life. This storm isn't over yet but its getting there.


Then do it.

Grab some hefty bags, heave her **** into them, throw them on the lawn.

Send the following text:

"your **** is on the lawn. Better get it before someone else does. Do not contact me again except regarding our impending legal divorce process, and even then I'd prefer it through a lawyer."

Then block her contact information and try to get the hell on with your life.

And realize her strategy includes having the ability to have you as a safe harbour in case she ever needs it. Stop being a safe harbour.


----------



## honcho

MrPack said:


> Well I cant say that I'm surprised, I just got a text from her and she isn't coming over today to pack up some of her stuff. Her excuse was that "she really needs to study for her test tomorrow". I replied with "if you cant make it over here within the next few days I'll start packing for you". She's coming Wednesday morning, I wont be here so it should be interesting to see how much she actually gets done. I'm not going to lie I'm pretty upset right now, I'm trying to be as amicable as I can while keeping my integrity but it's getting harder and harder. Again I go back to the fact that she cant take 2 hours out of her Sunday to pack but she can spend a whole weekend in another country for a mission trip. This was the last straw for me in terms of doing things on her schedule. The next time she cancels or postpones something like this I wont give her another chance I'll just do it myself. I just want to punch a hole in my wall right now and scream, I was having a great day up until now.



Have it packed and ready to leave on Wednesday. This will be your best course and most amicable way. Your statement of "next time" should have been a few times ago. 

Ask yourself why your upset, you must have known in the back of your head she would do this. You taken many steps foward, she wants to get you back into her game. I'll sound critical but she knew sooner or later you would do the come get it or I'll pack it speech. She knew she could buy time arranging a day and have the opportunity to chat with you about Mexico or whatever. It all gets you thinking about her again. Now your waiting on her again and you know full well how responsible she is. Ya set yourself up for this.

So on Wednesday if she swings by have the boxes ready to go and be done with the office. If she complains tell her you wanted her to have plenty of study time so you relieved her of the burden of packing. What's the worst she can do....divorce you?

Your making good strides forward, don't let her push your buttons.


----------



## helolover

great advice you're getting on this update, pack.

Keep it simple. It's all about your frame of operating. It's YOUR frame you need to be operating in. I recommend a frame of detachment. Your frame is all business. Your frame is the present and a bit into YOUR future. Your frame has depleted uranium strength boundaries. 

You're in her frame when:
You show her emotion or butt hurt.
You allow her to come and go as she pleases.
You allow her schedule to dictate your home sale.
You're available everytime she wants to come over or call.
You get into a text exchange with her.
You answer right away.
You feel pissed off at the way she is operating.

(her frame = your enmeshment)

Pack her stuff and put it in the garage. Let her know it is packed and what date she is available to come get it. 

HL


----------



## Marduk

@MrPack why this obsession with being nice to the woman who just ripped your whole life apart?

I don't get it, man.


----------



## MrPack

marduk said:


> @MrPack why this obsession with being nice to the woman who just ripped your whole life apart?
> 
> I don't get it, man.


I don't either, I guess that's why I need to go talk to someone.


----------



## TooNice

MrPack said:


> I don't either, I guess that's why I need to go talk to someone.


Some of us are just nice to a fault, even to those who don't deserve it. It goes against our grain of simply being decent humans to treat someone in a way we perceive as poorly. I was told often that I was far kinder to my ex than he deserved, but I didn't know how else to be.


----------



## farsidejunky

MrPack said:


> Well I cant say that I'm surprised, I just got a text from her and she isn't coming over today to pack up some of her stuff. Her excuse was that "she really needs to study for her test tomorrow". I replied with "if you cant make it over here within the next few days I'll start packing for you". She's coming Wednesday morning, I wont be here so it should be interesting to see how much she actually gets done. I'm not going to lie I'm pretty upset right now, I'm trying to be as amicable as I can while keeping my integrity but it's getting harder and harder. Again I go back to the fact that she cant take 2 hours out of her Sunday to pack but she can spend a whole weekend in another country for a mission trip. This was the last straw for me in terms of doing things on her schedule. The next time she cancels or postpones something like this I wont give her another chance I'll just do it myself. I just want to punch a hole in my wall right now and scream, I was having a great day up until now.


You will begin to detach when you accept that you can have zero expectations of her. No more than you would have of a stranger.


----------



## Affaircare

honcho said:


> *Have it packed and ready to leave on Wednesday. *This will be your best course and most amicable way. Your statement of "next time" should have been a few times ago.
> 
> ...
> 
> *So on Wednesday, if she swings by, have the boxes ready to go and be done with the office. * If she complain,s tell her you wanted her to have plenty of study time so you relieved her of the burden of packing. What's the worst she can do....divorce you?
> 
> Your making good strides forward, don't let her push your buttons.


*YES!* This! :iagree: *QFT!* (quoted for truth)


----------



## helolover

MrPack said:


> I don't either, I guess that's why I need to go talk to someone.


it's called "one-itis." It's paralyzing. 

Grieve your relationship ending - it's imperative and healthy. Stop jonesing for your exwife. She isn't all that. 

Many many more out there when you're ready.


----------



## turnera

MrPack said:


> I know I'm not helping myself by still letting her back into my life but I just want to get this house sold and our stuff split up. ONce that is done I'm done with her and with our old life. This storm isn't over yet but its getting there.


Bullshyte. If you really wanted to be done, you would have already packed her crap and shoved it to the side of the driveway or the garage and gotten on with your life.


----------



## LongWalk

Mr Pack,

Your STBXW is accustomed to manipulating your emotions. It's second nature to her. Whether or not you're happy or sad doesn't much cross her mind. She is thinking about her trip to Mexico. Does she care about the poor people there? Doubt it. They exist so that she can go there and receive affirmation that she is good. The greatest possible attack on her is to question her do-goodism and New Age quackery. She puts those goals first. Her material goods that are irritation to you are nothing important to her. She is remaking her life in the belief that she is going to become influential. Nothing could be further from the truth.

In my 20s I went to the Philippines to learn to scuba dive. The people are nice but many things there were not right by Western standards. Poor people fished with dynamite, blowing the coral to pieces, although that was the undersea forest upon which the sea life depended. Young girls were pimped out en masse to make money, although they were sisters and daughters upon which the next generation would come. A local fellow spoke about change.

"The US Peace Corp workers who come here to change us," he laughed, "no, it is we who change them."

Your STBXW is anxious to have such an experience. You are a more practical person. Time will tell who will be happier in 10 years time. My money is not on her.

Packing her stuff in boxes is a lot of work.

I would simply go through her stuff so make certain none of yours lies mingled in it. When she comes don't help her. Don't so much as lift a finger. Just go sit in another room so that she cannot roam about, taking things. She may come with friends. Fine. When she leaves don't hug her or shake hands. Just say bye and under your breath whisper good riddance.


----------



## Absurdist

MrPack please. Do I have to crawl through the modem and slap you?

MrsPack, your office $hit is packed up in boxes in the garage marked "Office $hit".

You have until x date to pick it up.

If you do not pick it up on x date I will have it taken to the focking garbage dump.

.........

Do not text her again. Do not talk to her again. Do not respond to her texts.

Go dark.

Dark as night.

You're just killing yourself softly.

Use that stinking lawyer you're going to see this week.

Git R Dun.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LongWalk

Getting the divorce started asap is the best idea.

Great if you could give her the papers when she arrives to pick up her stuff.

Putting all her stuff in boxes on the porch is great if you have the energy. The key is to not give hoot about her. That is still going to take some time.

The thing is which is galling is that she began to disrespect you as a husband but did not speak up. Part of the problem is that she does not have high self regard, so some honest discussion is beyond her at this point. She is running away. Chasing her won't work. All you can do is be happy that you are parting ways.

Make sure you hit the gym.


----------



## Pluto2

Mr. Pack, she is not going to change her mind, she is not going to suddenly see what a nice guy you are and realized that she doesn't want to divorce you. So stop behaving as though she will.

Stop it.

Start treating her as though she were a former tenant of your house-nothing more. How many nice guy chances would you give someone who rented a room from you. Probably not this many, right? And I know your heart is telling you that she's so much more than that, that she is your wife.

She's not. Ask Bob the bartender.

Maybe she was at one point, but she most definitely is not anymore. An actual partner in your life would not treat you with such disrespect. Why is it ok with you that she does? Do you think you are not worth more? (We all know that isn't true and we hope you do), or do 
you think (hope) she'll change her mind?

I'm not trying to be hurtful. I just don't want you to let her keep hurting you.


----------



## turnera

Seriously. Go back and ask Bob the bartender. HE will tell you who she REALLY is. From direct observation.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Yeah, I was waiting for her to move the time to a day when you were unavailable. I'd figure out a way to be at my house or somewhere close to see what she took and who comes with her. Yes, I know some will say detach, but I wouldn't want a person going through my belongings after this mess. Especially one who was all "no, I want nothing" and is now wanting half.


----------



## LongWalk

No way should she be allowed to wander around without supervision.

The best way to mess with her would be to have an attractive woman (any age) answer the door when she comes. The woman answering the door should be polite but curt. When asked who she is, she should hesitate a fraction of a second and reply I work for Mr. Pack. He told me you were coming.

This of course would drive her crazy with curiosity. You just need to find an employee for this, haha.

You could even set up a camera to catch her surprized face.

Kidding aside. I would file for divorce and make the terms as hard as you possible can.


----------



## MrPack

I appreciate everyones advice and words of encouragement I really do and it has helped me more than you know through all of this. However, I'm not at that point where I feel it okay to throw all her $hit out in the yard. Some of you may not agree with some of my decisions but the last thing I want is to start a big drama fest and cause an UGLY DIVORCE. Beleive me part of me would love to just throw all her crap in bags and toss it in the street but until the papers are signed it is important to me that I continue to try and take the "high road" and be the bigger person. 

I have made a commitment to myself that I will no longer let her cancel or postpone days that she is supposed to pack or pick things up. I'm done letting that happen, from here on out I'll tell her how much time she has and when it works for me and if she cant meet those demands then I will pack stuff for her, keep it in the garage for a short period of time before it gets thrown out. 

Yes she tore my life apart and I'm struggling to find my happiness again all the while it seems like she is doing fine but knowing her I think it affects her and pushes her buttons more if I act like i'm doing great and not affected by this. Me showing anger towards her right now is weakness in her eyes, I am not weak...I am strong. She doesnt deserve to even think I'm weak or get the satisfaction that I may be struggling with this still. 

Anyway, I really appreciate you all and I know you all have my best interest at heart. I contribute my growth through all of this to you guys and the support I've gotten here on TAM. I hope that one day when I make it out of this storm I can use what I've learned and help someone else.


----------



## Marduk

You need to get angry. 

More likely, you are already angry and not letting it out. Because you still love her and want to protect her from that. 

Anger is not evil or bad. It's how you use it that is good or bad. 

Use it to rip the bandaid off. Trust me, she is getting far more validation out of you being mr nice guy than she ever would out of you being angry and standing up for yourself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marc878

It's a hard situation to be in.

I agree with you. Move on without her she left you a long time ago.

You owe her nothing but it'll still hurt.

She's a cheater and all cheaters lie. You don't need that in your life anyway. Just take consullation that you don't have more time and kids invested in this worthless marriage.

Short term pain will be better than a long term tragedy.

Best of luck to you.


----------



## Marc878

The truth is always good to get out though.

I'd expose who she really is when a good time comes.


----------



## turnera

MrPack said:


> I appreciate everyones advice and words of encouragement I really do and it has helped me more than you know through all of this. However, I'm not at that point where I feel it okay to throw all her $hit out in the yard.


Now see, you are reading what we said and then putting your fear-based SPIN on it. None of us, that I recall, told you to 'THROW ALL HER SH*T OUT IN THE YARD.'

You're making it sound like we're telling you to be a hard-assed assh*le. Nothing further from the truth.

We told you to BOX her stuff up - not THROW - and PUT it either in the garage or the driveway - not the yard.

You hear advice and your lizard immediately jumps to 'oh no, she'll hate me and I'll never have another chance, I have to keep being nice to her so she'll maybe someday take me back' and you view the advice through fear-based fog. And thus you DID NOT HEAR WHAT WE SAID.

We said to calmly, confidently, and in a bout of self respect, BOX her stuff up, get it out of your way, and INFORM her where it is so she can come get it.

There's a big difference between what we told you and what you HEARD.

You need to ask yourself why.

And btw, this:


> She doesn't deserve to even think I'm weak or get the satisfaction that I may be struggling with this still.


 is fallacy. You continuing to let her postpone IS showing that you are weak. A strong man would have said 'you do this to me? Then get your crap out of my house; I have better stuff to do than waste it waiting on you.'

You SAY you're no longer going to do that, but I don't see a deadline posted yet.


----------



## LongWalk

Turnera has got it. In fact, all of us are saying more or less the same thing. Even you are increasingly skeptical of her.

We understand it's hard. Man and woman have sex and melt together like a peanut butter cup in the sun. There is love and admiration that lasts a period, giving way to a couple becoming accustomed to each other.

Unbeknownst to one, the ardor and respect of one fades. The relationship must end.

Since she is the one who wants out, she ought to be active in cutting all ties. She should have filed for divorce .

Instead she is dragging it out, letting you lick the peanut butter cup wrapper.

You should not seek an "ugly divorce". You should seek the best possible settlement for you, for you have been working while she studies.

She will not be your friend after divorce. Some ex's can be friends, but she is not one of them.

Put all her crap in boxes. Stack them in the garage. Do not let her back in the house. Do not help her carry them. Do not stand in the driveway and wave goodbye.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

MrPack said:


> but the last thing I want is to start a big drama fest and cause an UGLY DIVORCE.


You need to take a break from this thread, go for a run come back and read this thread again.

All this niceness has gotten you what exactly? Postponements and her deciding she wants half the money from the sell of the house. How long before she starts asking about alimony? What about selling and halving a car? She's a student what if you have to pay her health insurance for a fix amount of time? 

You are already headed towards an ugly divorce. No, I am not saying be mean, but letting her sidestep issues makes you create more drama.


----------



## turnera

My ex-SIL, who started cheating on my brother, SAID she was walking away with just what she came into the marriage with. By the time she finally left, after using a snake-oil lawyer who played lots of tricks, she had two-thirds of their net worth. And it was a LOT of worth.

SHE IS NO LONGER YOUR FRIEND. SHE IS NO LONGER LOOKING AFTER YOUR BEST INTERESTS.


----------



## MrPack

Well All I can say is I'm trying my best. It's very obvious I have a lot of work to do.


----------



## MrPack

There's no part of me that wants her back especially the way she is now and has been for the past year. Yes I miss the good times and I miss her when things were good but I know that is a thing of the past.


----------



## farsidejunky

Then make it the past, because right now you are trying to keep one foot on the boat and one on the dock while the boat is slowly moving out to open water...


----------



## Marduk

Let go, my friend. 

She hurt you. Betrayed you. Broke her commitments to you. Lied to you. Misled you. Misrepresented herself to you. 

She has hurt your heart. Wasted your time. Set you back financially. Caused you mental anguish and pain. 

Stop trying to nice her. 

Let go.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Absurdist

farsidejunky said:


> Then make it the past, because right now *you are trying to keep one foot on the boat and one on the dock while the boat is slowly moving out to open water*...



MrPack - Farside's metaphor is about as good as it gets. He ought to get a patent on it.

We are not trying to beat you about the head and shoulders. This thread now has 41 pages because there are a lot of people who want the best for you. We're not trying to be unfeeling a$$holes. We simply want you to let go on and have a good life.

I can't say I have ever been in your shoes. I haven't. I have the best wife in the world and she's been so for nearly 40 years. So I can't truly relate.

But... I have been the friend and listening ear for many men in your position.  The sooner you let go, have a plan and follow the plan with clearly defined benchmarks and dates, the sooner you begin to heal and go on with a productive life (and I will hazard a prediction for you... a great life).


----------



## MrPack

I have the upmost repsect for all of you guys on here. I would much rather every one be brutally honest with me then tip toe around the subject. I know that sometimes I may not like what I read on here and it may even make me mad but I know its all in good faith and I really really appreciate all of you and what you have to say.


----------



## turnera

And also try to remember that the advice we give you about moving on - is ALSO the same advice that works to draw the woman back TO you, if it's gonna happen. Because we want what we can't have. Cheaters cheat because they assume good ol' faithful is still sitting there waiting for them; that's half the allure. As soon as she sees you going out and ENJOYING YOUR LIFE without her, you instantly become ten times more attractive to her.


----------



## LongWalk

Mr Pack if you beat her to the punch and hand her the divorce papers without any speech and she walks away without much to say, you'll feel so much better.

By the way, did you buy her an expensive engagement ring?

I suggest the worth of the ring be included in the joint property settlement. Attribute the entire cost. If she wants to contest the value of the ring, have it appraised and sold in auction.

If it helps to rid you of nostalgia, remember that she has slept with Bob the bartender. He may not be the only one. Every trip to Mexico with her do gooder buddies probably leads to a hook up.


----------



## Marc878

A couple of things may probably come your way.

The friend thing. Can we be friends? No! I'd tell her I've got friends. Why would you want that in your life?

She's had the power and you've been under her control long enough. Take it back. Do not answer her phone calls or call her back. Short texts when you have to and block her from your social media. You have nothing to lose here.

She may try and see you at some point. I'd bet bartenders have a high risk of STD's. Keep that in mind. 

You don't want to end up with a long term or permanent gift that keeps on giving.

I wish you well.


----------



## helolover

Let's just be friends (LJBF) = rejection


----------



## MrPack

Yea she's already fed me the why cant we be friends line. I've told her on numerous occasions that I cannot go from being married to someone and sharing everything to being friends. I think her wanting or at least saying she wants to remain friends is a way for her to alleviate her guilt.


----------



## farsidejunky

MrPack said:


> Yea she's already fed me the why cant we be friends line. I've told her on numerous occasions that I cannot go from being married to someone and sharing everything to being friends. I think her wanting or at least saying she wants to remain friends is a way for her to alleviate her guilt.


Exactly.


----------



## Pluto2

Bingo.


----------



## Marduk

MrPack said:


> Yea she's already fed me the why cant we be friends line. I've told her on numerous occasions that I cannot go from being married to someone and sharing everything to being friends. I think her wanting or at least saying she wants to remain friends is a way for her to alleviate her guilt.


That's part of it, but it's more than that.

When I was going through my divorce, I had an older family member that left her husband some years before. They kept it cordial, and he always wanted her back.

Then he died. 

She told me that part of her finding it so easy to leave and go on without him was knowing that they were still friends, she could always go to him for emotional support if she needed, and she could even go back to him at any time if she got lonely or couldn't make it on her own.

And now that he was dead, she realized how crappy that was, and how she felt alone and the loss of her marriage for the first time. She mourned him terribly, for a long time -- because she wasn't just mourning the loss of him as a person, she mourned her marriage, and what she had done like it was brand new.

And that's why I never tried to be friends or cordial with my ex.


----------



## LongWalk

Good post by Marduk.

WW and WAW's sow self doubt. That is why everyone talks about working on oneself. When you are whole and have a life without her, whatever communication or overtures come from her side will be unimportant because her friendship is unlikely to be mutual. The subjects of conversation with friends:

1) Money
Well, you are divorcing, so the subject of money can only be acrimonious.
2) Career
You disagree with her choices. She wants to become a New Age doctor. Why would you want to discuss that part of her life. Pure irritation.
3) Family
Your families are ending their relationship because your relationship is over. Nothing to talk about here.
4) Personal life
You don't want to hear about Bob and the other men she is dating. If those relationships are failing or frustrating for her, do you want to commiserate? Would that be healthy for you?

Suppose she solves all the problems in her life; getting rid of you would be a milestone in that process. Pretty insulting.

My ex's father just got operated on for lung cancer. My father just died. We can care about such trials because we are connected by children. But if she has troubles with her current boyfriend, I am not interested. I am interested in who he is because he is around my children. 

For a person without children it's much simpler. You move on and they become just someone that you used to know. She will actually fade in your memory, especially when you have kids with another woman.

BFF recently posted an update on his thread. His exWW and he had trouble conceiving. Little did he know, his best friend was seeding her, too. No babies came of the cheating. When he discovered her infidelity he ended their marriage, although they had just bought a new house. BBF was not so young but he met a new woman and now has a 9 month old kid. It was not in his life plans at the time it happened. He still has to pay some spousal support to his ex but he knows his life turned out far happier without her. A wife who loves him and a child.

Getting rid of your ungrateful cheating wife should be a milestone in your life. You don't even have to use boxes. Pack her crap in paper shopping bags and let them soak up the oil from the garage floor.

Also, go through your stuff and anything that you strongly associate with her, you can also put in the garage. It will actually sting a little if you find some knick-knack that she agonized over buying and just put it out there like trash. She valued it. You could fight her for it but it's not worth jack shyte.


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## phillybeffandswiss

MrPack said:


> Yea she's already fed me the why cant we be friends line.


You were supposed to friend zone me before marriage, I don't need it now.


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## LongWalk

She friend zoned him in marriage so that could avoid pregnancy, intimacy, etc.


----------



## JohnA

Once again Marduk hit the nail on the head with his relatives experience. 

All right try the truth

Be blunt with her. I cannot be friends with you and move on. Who would want to be with a guy in love with his ex ? Every time you call I wonder has she changed her mind? The only reason to stay friends with you is out hope you return. So, I need this done and done now.

Right now the most important question you should have is who will play ILB for the Pack. 

Bye the way is she in a regular Ned school ?


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

LongWalk said:


> She friend zoned him in marriage so that could avoid pregnancy, intimacy, etc.


LOL. I am saying that should be his response when she feeds him that line.


----------



## Marduk

I don't think you owe her a reason why not to be friends.

A simple "no" will suffice.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

marduk said:


> I don't think you owe her a reason why not to be friends.
> 
> A simple "no" will suffice.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


True. Still, there are times for a little snark and honesty.


----------



## Marduk

phillybeffandswiss said:


> True. Still, there are times for a little snark and honesty.


Sure. Then say what I said. 

"No ****ing way you stupid *****. Don't call me again."

My girlfriend was so happy when she heard me say that I got a BJ out of it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LongWalk

Some people are so unwilling to accept non verbal communication that you have spell it out for them.

Still, the not offering any leads in conversation is an excellent way to discourage unwanted friendship.


----------



## Chaparral

When is she going to be served?


----------



## MrPack

My realtor came over Wednesday evening we settle on a listing price and a date to put the house on the market. Monday the 21st. That same evening I emailed my STBXW told her that her stuff has to be out of the house by no later than Saturday the 19th. I also said in my email that this is a priority and if she cant be on board with this fast schedule I'll pack and move her stuff into storage, leave it there for a 1 week then it's going to goodwill. Well, she took the bait and said she would have her stuff out before Saturday the 19th. 

Today I worked from home for a few hours this morning and spent the rest of the day packing up as much as I could, wall decorations, bedroom/bathroom decorations and ripped up A LOT of pictures. It was tough. I'm not going to lie I really struggled but it needed to be done. I now have a garage full of boxes. I packed up a lot of her crap and labeled the boxes, put them in the garage and sent her a text telling her where they were and that I expect them to be moved when she comes for the big stuff. We have come to a pretty decent agreement on who gets what. I think the idea of money in her pocket from when the house sells is adding to her all the sudden attitude to be available to get her crap. Like I've stated before based off of a state law she gets half of the profit I make on this house even though she didn't pay $hit over the past 6 years. 

This evening I had dinner with the neighbors, tomorrow I have 8 of my buddies coming over for a fantasy football draft/bbq...sort of the last get together at my house before its on the market. I'm looking forward to it but it's also $hitty... I'm excited to get this house sold and move on. My plan is to get the house sold and the next step is filing. I know that will be tough emotionally but I'm ready to start my new life. 

My question to you all is.... When she does come back to the house to pick up the rest of her stuff should I be here? I mean it's not as simple as a handful of clothes, its big stuff like furniture... Part of me is thinking I need to be here just in case...Plus it's MY HOUSE I want to know who will be helping her walking around my house....


----------



## LongWalk

Everything depends on your state of mind. If you are at peace, you can even smile at her make small talk, help her, etc. But in truth you are not at peace. You aren't over her. It is too much at the moment.

You note that the division of furniture, etc was fair while noting that she contributed nothing to the house purchase. Do you regret splitting the furniture, 50/50? Wouldn't it have been better to ask her to leave without taking anything but her personal goods? Economically that would have been more just.

Using the house sale to push her suggests that you didn't feel that you had the weight to simply tell to comply with your wishes.

You are still digesting this new picture of her. She is greedy, selfish and unjust. Absorbing this is difficult. The split of property equally is based on the notion that two people built a life together and what they had was a product of mutual labor. When there are children, attributing value to the woman's contribution departs comparison of wage and salary. You, though, had no children. She was taking more economically the whole time and even more once school started.

An equitable division of assets would have reflected that. At this point, you suspect that she is looking at the money she getting as compensation for having wasted her time with you. That is a sickening realization.

She was always a taker and you enabled her because of your co-dependency.

So the question you are not asking is a good one. How do you liberate yourself from the negative emotion?

The best would be as follows:

1) You are present so that she cannot snoop or loot.
2) You do help.
3) You do not scowl or display hostility
As they drive away, you can just imagine her friends telling her, "Oh man, what an azzhole. You are so lucky to get free of him. I couldn't believe all the stuff you said about him. But he is a total douche. Freedom! High five!"

Much better if she acts uncomfortable and they leave doubting her.

I suggest that you have friends over and drink beer and eat pizza while she is loading her ****.


----------



## Satya

MrPack said:


> .... When she does come back to the house to pick up the rest of her stuff should I be here? I mean it's not as simple as a handful of clothes, its big stuff like furniture... Part of me is thinking I need to be here just in case...Plus it's MY HOUSE I want to know who will be helping her walking around my house....


YES you should be there and have a beefy guy friend be there with you the whole time. He shouldn't help her, just watch. Have 2 more guys in the wings that can come at a moments notice. Carry a concealed VAR. You have no idea what to expect, so prepare for the worst.


----------



## Chaparral

Be there, be Spock.


----------



## Marc878

She left it's totally up to her to get her stuff out. I would not help her in any way. 

She's used you enough.

I agree be there with a friend for observation only.

She's a cheater. Why not start treating her like one.

Move on as fast as possible you've wasted enough of your life with her. She's not worth another minute. I would if you haven't cut off all expense you're paying for her.


----------



## lifeistooshort

marduk said:


> Sure. Then say what I said.
> 
> "No ****ing way you stupid *****. Don't call me again."
> 
> My girlfriend was so happy when she heard me say that I got a BJ out of it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Seriously. A new gf will be soooooooo happy that he's friends with his ex. Not.

If my hb said something like that to his ex wife I wouldn't let him get out of bed all weekend, and the only time I'd get out would be to get him food and beer.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LongWalk

Are you going to give her half of the money from the sale of the house before you file for divorce?

It may be possible to seek a share of her future earnings.



> Later that year, a New York doctor named Michael O'Brien filed for divorce, shortly after receiving his medical license. His wife, Loretta, had supported them both while he attended medical school. She claimed a share of the value of his medical license as recompense for her efforts, and in 1985, the Court of Appeals, the state's highest court, agreed.


----------



## turnera

Satya said:


> YES you should be there and have a beefy guy friend be there with you the whole time. He shouldn't help her, just watch. Have 2 more guys in the wings that can come at a moments notice. Carry a concealed VAR. You have no idea what to expect, so prepare for the worst.


Agree totally. Have someone there with you, in case you feel like you're getting emotional, who will have your back and not let her get away with anything if you have to duck out for a minute. I would even add, if she's getting belligerent, to videotape the whole thing.


----------



## Marduk

lifeistooshort said:


> Seriously. A new gf will be soooooooo happy that he's friends with his ex. Not.
> 
> If my hb said something like that to his ex wife I wouldn't let him get out of bed all weekend, and the only time I'd get out would be to get him food and beer.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I was in my brand new sports car with my brand new girlfriend on the way to the coast for a weekend of fun.

And she happened to call me asking for money and "if we could talk about things."

It's amazing what one can rebuild if one lets go of what one had.


----------



## farsidejunky

Pack, I would find out what time she is going to be there. Then set the stuff outside an hour previous while you go watch a game somewhere.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

MrPack said:


> My question to you all is.... When she does come back to the house to pick up the rest of her stuff should I be here? I mean it's not as simple as a handful of clothes, its big stuff like furniture... Part of me is thinking I need to be here just in case...Plus it's MY HOUSE I want to know who will be helping her walking around my house....


Be there, but don't help. Be prepared and expect some men or a man to help. Don't confront, have A VAR and make sure you have some friends available.

I helped my friend move his girlfriend out and was accused of being the cheater. Unfortunately, I had to put dude in his place. She misrepresented their relationship and I was pissed. I had to let my friend have it for putting me in the middle of that mess.


----------



## lifeistooshort

marduk said:


> I was in my brand new sports car with my brand new girlfriend on the way to the coast for a weekend of fun.
> 
> And she happened to call me asking for money and "if we could talk about things."
> 
> *It's amazing what one can rebuild if one lets go of what one had.*


Truer words were never spoken.


----------



## LongWalk

Marduk, 
Did your wife cheat? It took you a long time to give hope if I recall.

Mr Pack is traveling the same road.


----------



## Marduk

LongWalk said:


> Marduk,
> Did your wife cheat? It took you a long time to give hope if I recall.
> 
> Mr Pack is traveling the same road.


She did but I didn't find out until after we were separated.

At that point, it hurt like a SOB but in the long run it helped. It let me get angry, and it helped me understand why she left -- she gave me absolutely no reason and never has.


----------



## TooNice

marduk said:


> She did but I didn't find out until after we were separated.
> 
> At that point, it hurt like a SOB but in the long run it helped. It let me get angry, and it helped me understand why she left -- she gave me absolutely no reason and never has.


I continue to be grateful for the person who put themselves out on a limb to out my ex to me. The power and control I gained from that knowledge moved me ahead in my process exponentially.


----------



## LongWalk

Mr Pack,

Marduk is a good poster for you to study. No, excellent, in fact, for he is clever and yet found letting go very difficult in the absence of clear evidence of cheating.

His exWW was also economically dependent, motivating her to gaslight and stonewall.

Your STBXW has taken a page out of the same playbook.

It could be helpful to imagine how your STBXW reasons. For many months, perhaps even years, when you thought you were making love to her, she considered it a task. She had to have sex to keep a roof over her head.

Today she may believe she is morally entitled to half the value of your house because she considered this aspect of your relationship hardship, a kind of unpleasant and degrading duty.

She has a right to her feelings but she should have shared them with you much earlier.

She wasted your time and hers. 

Once she was dishonest, looking at OM and flirting with and even cheating became a new element of duplicity.

Your STBXW is not some unusual devious and evil woman. It is important, though, to not protect her feelings at the expense of your own. 

You can and should make the division of assets as favorable to yourself as possible. 

It may make you feel stingy but you will be the better for it.

She should remember you as having hardened at the end. All the hours agonizing over the wedding. It would have been so much better to have filed for divorce back then.


----------



## MrPack

Why am I still struggling with totally getting over her? Yes I know the more contact I have with her right now is adding to that but honestly the only contact we have is business related. I had a bunch of buddies over Saturday night and they were all asking me when I'll be ready to date again. I couldn't answer it, I have days where I feel excited to meet a great woman who will treat me the way I deserve to be treated but then I have days where I get a knot in my stomach thinking about starting over a new relationship with someone. 

I had plans last week to find an independent counsellor and get that ball rolling, well that didn't happen. I feel like I'm in a rut this past week, I know things will not change until I make them change. Hoping for a better week this week. Like I've said before I don't miss her as the person she is now but I'm still missing what we had when things were good, I hate having these feelings still.

I guess the one positive I can take out of this weekend is that I got everything of hers aside from some of her clothes packed up and into the garage. Now the only time she will need to come to MY house is when she picks everything up, I don't have to worry about having her here for hours on end packing.


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## TooNice

MrPack said:


> I had plans last week to find an independent counsellor and get that ball rolling, well that didn't happen. I feel like I'm in a rut this past week, *I know things will not change until I make them change.* Hoping for a better week this week. Like I've said before I don't miss her as the person she is now but I'm still missing what we had when things were good, I hate having these feelings still.


THIS. 

It is a process. Elizabeth Kubler-Ross knew what she was talking about with the stages of grief. Right now, you are grieving. And you will move through the stages, sometimes going back into one you have already experienced. But handling things for yourself, and taking care of MrPack will help you. 

As for dating, do what you want when you are ready to. That's a process, too. But you have to heal yourself first. 

The packing of the boxes must feel great, though. How nice it will be when she comes to see that you have boxed her up and put her to the side - literally! :laugh:


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## turnera

Why didn't you arrange for a therapist?


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## Absurdist

TooNice said:


> THIS.
> 
> It is a process. Elizabeth Kubler-Ross knew what she was talking about with the stages of grief. Right now, you are grieving. And you will move through the stages, sometimes going back into one you have already experienced. But handling things for yourself, and taking care of MrPack will help you.
> 
> As for dating, do what you want when you are ready to. That's a process, too. But you have to heal yourself first.
> 
> The packing of the boxes must feel great, though. How nice it will be when she comes to see that you have boxed her up and put her to the side - literally! :laugh:


Everything TooNice said.

Although painful, packing up the boxes and getting the stuff out of the house is therapeutic. It's just another step in a long process. You are making progress. It's sort of like climbing Mt Everest. You just don't climb to the top of Everest. You lay siege to the mountain going up and down preparing for the final ascension. Serious climbers talk about acclimatization, a process where your mind and body adapt to high altitude. Without acclimatization climbing is futile.

MrPack you are climbing your own mountain. You are acclimating. Packing the boxes is like walking actoss the ladders of the Khumbu Icefall. Scarey as all get out but you are making it. You will stand on the mountaintop a new man.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## honcho

MrPack said:


> Why am I still struggling with totally getting over her? Yes I know the more contact I have with her right now is adding to that but honestly the only contact we have is business related. I had a bunch of buddies over Saturday night and they were all asking me when I'll be ready to date again. I couldn't answer it, I have days where I feel excited to meet a great woman who will treat me the way I deserve to be treated but then I have days where I get a knot in my stomach thinking about starting over a new relationship with someone.
> 
> I had plans last week to find an independent counsellor and get that ball rolling, well that didn't happen. I feel like I'm in a rut this past week, I know things will not change until I make them change. Hoping for a better week this week. Like I've said before I don't miss her as the person she is now but I'm still missing what we had when things were good, I hate having these feelings still.
> 
> I guess the one positive I can take out of this weekend is that I got everything of hers aside from some of her clothes packed up and into the garage. Now the only time she will need to come to MY house is when she picks everything up, I don't have to worry about having her here for hours on end packing.


This is why you need to force yourself and file for divorce. Your getting yourself stuck in limbo land. Waiting until the house sells, things like that are just excuses your telling yourself to buy time and avoid making the decision she will never make. 

This needs to become real for both of you. She is daydreaming of far off lands and adventure, your still fighting the urge to see the "old" her. Business only contact is still contact and makes you think about her. 

Divorce takes forever to begin with in most states, the two of you don't hate each other so divorce wise it should go pretty easy. It won't the longer this goes on. You will find that the greatest asset we have is time. In the beginning of my mess I would have given her the sweat heart deal of a lifetime to get the divorce done before the real world hit crazy girl. Not because I wanted a divorce but because I didn't want my life stuck like it is. 

You need to get the clock started on divorce for yourself. You can then close this chapter of your life and get ready for the next one.


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## MrPack

turnera said:


> Why didn't you arrange for a therapist?


Just didn't do it yet, not really any accuse for it. I do have a list that I need to bump off of my EAP at work. I plan to do that tomorrow. Found myself in a rut this past week and i'm still slowly climbing out.


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## LongWalk

Honcho is right on. Take control of the divorce. Drive it forward posthaste. You will better for having taken the initiative. If she hands you the papers, you'll feel dumped again.


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## farsidejunky

Pack:

The reason you are still struggling is because part of you has not given up on her.

That part of you is the emotional, irrational side. It is the side that will drag your healing out.

Rip the band aid off, brother. The sooner you do, the sooner true healing begins.


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## Marduk

Far is right.

You're not letting go. Why is that?

I found one of the hardest things for me to let go of was the me that I was when I was married to her. What is it for you?


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## honcho

marduk said:


> I found one of the hardest things for me to let go of was the me that I was when I was married to her. What is it for you?


Well for me this was very true.


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## Archangel2

Archangel2 said:


> Your wife strikes me as the type who does not know what she's got till it's gone. So give her what she thinks she wants. BE GONE! I hope you can successfully detach and work toward the next chapter of your life. There are many good women out there who will appreciate a good, faithful man. Please don't waste any more time on this self-entitled hypocrite.
> 
> I hope you can find your inner strength and put this relationship behind you as soon as possible.


Mr. Pack - If you remember, I threatened to repost the above any time I thought you were wavering.Well. I am getting the feeling you are starting to waver. Please listen to the good advice you've been given here and get off square one!!!


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## MrPack

She text me today saying she wanted to come over to pick up some boxes, said she is free all day Wednesday. I told her she can come anytime after 5pm (I'll be home from work by then). I'm going to be cordial but short with her, all business. My goal is to get her in and out as quick as possible. You all have opened my eyes regarding my "slump" I've been in. I'm not 100% okay but today was a little better than the past week has gone. Thank you... I just need to work on progression, I'm finding that my biggest problem is I say all these things I want to do but when it comes time to do them I make excuses or find reasons to postpone them. I need to stop and I will be working on that. 

Thank you all so much.


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## MrPack

Archangel2 said:


> Mr. Pack - If you remember, I threatened to repost the above any time I thought you were wavering.Well. I am getting the feeling you are starting to waver. Please listen to the good advice you've been given here and get off square one!!!


I have been wavering as of late, thank you for the kick. I'll get there, just treading these ups and downs.


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## MrPack

marduk said:


> Far is right.
> 
> You're not letting go. Why is that?
> 
> I found one of the hardest things for me to let go of was the me that I was when I was married to her. What is it for you?


I've read your post a few times today and it's hitting close to home. When you say that it was hard for you to let go of who you were when you were married to her....well that makes sense to me. A lot of what I'm feeling always falls into the "oh I miss her and us when things were good" I also miss who I was with her when things were good. I think I'm struggling to see my "new" identity without her. Confusing stuff...


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## farsidejunky

MrPack said:


> I've read your post a few times today and it's hitting close to home. When you say that it was hard for you to let go of who you were when you were married to her....well that makes sense to me. A lot of what I'm feeling always falls into the "oh I miss her and us when things were good" I also miss who I was with her when things were good. I think I'm struggling to see my "new" identity without her. Confusing stuff...


Yet what an opportunity, Pack. Have you read how many people on this board are separating with kids, heavily intertwined finances, and many other issues?

You are getting a blessing that you are not really seeing yet: a do over.

Use it wisely. It will likely be the last true one you get in this life.


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## turnera

I often tell people to think back to when they were single, before they had met their spouse. Early 20s, maybe. Think back to what you were back then, what you liked, what you planned to do, your goals...did you want to climb Mt Everest? Learn to scuba dive? Drive cross country? Work on becoming THAT person, head for all the things you'd given up to be with her. You'll get back a lot of your mojo.


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## LongWalk

You're still young enough to take a summer holiday hiking the Appalachian trail. Must be some hot single women with compatible sleep bag zippers.


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## thenub

MrPack said:


> She text me today saying she wanted to come over to pick up some boxes, said she is free all day Wednesday. I told her she can come anytime after 5pm (I'll be home from work by then). I'm going to be cordial but short with her, all business. My goal is to get her in and out as quick as possible. You all have opened my eyes regarding my "slump" I've been in. I'm not 100% okay but today was a little better than the past week has gone. Thank you... I just need to work on progression, I'm finding that my biggest problem is I say all these things I want to do but when it comes time to do them I make excuses or find reasons to postpone them. I need to stop and I will be working on that.
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you all so much.



This isn't good. She shouldn't come for SOME boxes. Tell her to take everything all the same day. That will ensure she has more free time for her studies later. Don't let her keep dragging this out.


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## Chaparral

You are the only one that can control how quickly you can change and move on to a better life. When you take this bull by the horns you're going to find its a much better ride han the one before if..............

There is a thread in the coping with infidelity thread that shows stats that people that are cheated on are more likely to be cheated on again. Get IC and find out why you picked your wife. She is a piece of work.


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## LongWalk

Why hasn't she picked up all her crap? Why hasn't she already filed for divorce?

Hypothesis: Bob the bartender and other men have banged her but afterwards they have not fallen deeply in love with her. Even her status as booty call is suspect. The moment she started talking about treating the poor of Mexico with herbs, massage and positive thinking, they said this pvssy is not worth it. They hoped she would go back to Mr Pack and just come by at 11:45 pm when they were lonely for her naked party conversation.

Mr Pack, she doesn't want you back because she has fallen out of love and her ability to get the men she imagines she wants is not there.

If she were so together, she would not be splitting from you in this fragmented fashion.


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## Marduk

MrPack said:


> I've read your post a few times today and it's hitting close to home. When you say that it was hard for you to let go of who you were when you were married to her....well that makes sense to me. A lot of what I'm feeling always falls into the "oh I miss her and us when things were good" I also miss who I was with her when things were good. I think I'm struggling to see my "new" identity without her. Confusing stuff...


It's a long road, bro.

I remember waking up one morning, months and months after we split. I was dating other women and having the time of my life.

And thought I had moved on.

But this particular morning I woke up for work, groggy and exhausted from the night before. I stumbled into the shower, put my head under the water, and tried to wake myself up.

And then I noticed my wedding ring was gone. I panicked for a second, worried I'd lost it, and thought about how mad my wife was going to be about it.

And then I remembered that it was all over. I remembered how smart I thought I was, being married and having my life sorted. How I thought I had it all figured out, and laughed at people my age who were still trying to figure out who they were. How confident and in charge of my life that I was when I was with her. How much in love with her I was.

And that was all gone.

I sat on the floor of the shower sobbing for a good 15 minutes.

And I felt really ****ty again for about a week.

What I was, was mourning the guy I thought I was when I was with her. And time, music, exercise, friends, women, and scotch helped me do that.

And then about a week later I was good again. It happens. Just don't hang onto it, is all.


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## Pluto2

Don't beat yourself up Mr. Pack. As folks have told you from the beginning, this is a process. Sometimes you feel on top of the world and ready to take on whatever your new life throws at you, and other times, well, you just want to hurl.... The highs and the lows become further and further apart as the healing progresses.

But to actually take control of your future, perhaps you should take a firmer control on your present. Message the STBX and say you expect her to remove all her boxes, not just a few. If you insist on being nice (cause I know you are a basically nice guy), tell her it must be done to facilitate the sale.

Did you go see the attorney?
Did you make an appt. for IC?

If not, why not.


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## MrPack

Well she just left, we literally only talked about business stuff, I helped her (yes I said I HELPED her) load her car with the remaining clothes she had in the closet and some boxes. I wanted to move this along so if that means me helping her load her car so be it. Her car is tiny so it wasn't much. We walked through the house and talked about all the random small stuff that still needs to be packed and divided up. She first suggested we have a packing day together but after I explained that I did not want to do that we came to an agreement that I will spend Saturday packing (was already my plan) and whatever else is left in the closets and extra rooms she can have (we've already split up the valuable items). I'll be gone all day Sunday so she is coming to the house to pack up the remaining items I didn't want. 

She was fine attitude wise up until the end when we were carry her stuff out to her car. She got very quiet and was in a rush. Before she left she had tears in her eyes and said "Sorry this is just really hard". I told her I know it is. We gave each other a half A$$ hug and she left. So I guess I can say it went the way I wanted it to, quick and to the point. I'm not going to lie it was hard for me to see her cry even with all the anger I have inside towards her and this situation. I look back at the start of our separation and how I was the emotional one, I was the one who was crying and she was the one acting like nothing was wrong. I often wondered if she was acting this way because our marriage meant nothing to her and I wondered if she'd ever get to the point where she finally feels what I've been feeling this whole time. Well I think it's all finally starting to hit her, she's finally seeing and realizing that this is over and things are moving forward. But I also realized tonight that I have a lot of work to do, I'm still not fully over her. She's still very very attractive to me and it still kills me to see her cry despite the anger I have. My house will be on the market in less than 2 weeks meaning in less than 2 weeks she will have no reason to come to my house and I can start back on the road to fixing myself. 

I have my plan and the first step is almost over.


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## Absurdist

Well done MrPack. A little bit of closure.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Marc878

I feel for you at this time. There is no easy way to get through this. 

Just remember she was the one who left you. She probably had a plan all along and she's moved on with another.

Short term it'll be hard on you but long term you'll look back and be thankful. No kids and you have your whole life ahead of you.

Make sure she pays her half of everything. You owe her nothing.

I hope you do well in the future.

Good luck to you.


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## LongWalk

At that moment by the car, do you think she felt that she could still have gotten you back had she so wished?

Hugging her must have hurt. Her mind was racing to figure out how to get away if you kissed.

Did you discuss divorce?

The fact that you can describe this painful scene so honestly is commendable.


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## Marduk

It gets better from this point on, man. I know it doesn't feel like it, but if you keep steaming ahead, this will be your bottom.

At this point, you need to go 100% dark and no contact with her at all. If you need to do legal paperwork stuff, do it through a lawyer.

Turn the page.

It baffled me, too, to see my wife not express any regret about her blowing our marriage up. She even relayed a message to me once that it was really hard for her financially and I should feel bad for her.

And then I realized one day (or was ready to hear it) that she checked out of the marriage long ago. It would be like if we split up mutually, and one of us went into a time machine a year in the future -- for the time traveller, it would still be fresh, and for the other person it would have had a year of letting go.

And that's where we actually were. 

Well, that and the internal justification mechanisms humans have when they betray commitments. Ego-protection, and all that.

Just accept what is, stop talking about her, try to interrupt thoughts that cycle about her, and hang with some good friends.

Keep posting.


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## LongWalk

There is one little trick you could play on her. Hehe. Sell the house and pocket all the money but don't file for divorce. Don't tell her about the sale, the price, her share or anything. Just let her wonder. She would start, reaching out and calling you, trying to figure out whether you were going to deceive her. Let her feel anxious. Let her long to talk to you while you are unreachable. Block her number and don't reply to her emails.

I think you can have the post office forward your mail. Don't tell her where you move.

Let her go to the hassle of filing for divorce. Let her spent money consulting a lawyer. Let her invent a demon Mr Pack she never imagined could exist. Ignore her until you are legally obligated to fork over her share. 

Write her a check for her share and conspicuously forward date it in bold print so that she cannot cash it until you are legally bound to pay her.

Does this sound petty and vindictive? Perhaps. But to me, her asking you to help carry the boxes and have a last packing party in the empty house was purely a passive aggressive way of waving her sex charms in your face. She is taunting you, not because she is evil. You have been co-dependent and she is exercising her rights to the very end.

In one of TAM's most famous thread's Shamwow has to break free from his cheating STBX. He loves her and is so close to reaching out to take her back. As he recedes from her, she starts to love him again, but she never manages to put her heart before her pride. At one point in the narrative she suffers an epileptic fit and falls down the basement stairs, breaking a rib. Who does she call for help? Shamwow of course. He goes and helps her. It is obvious that he is the best thing in her life but even at that moment she refuses to eat humble pie.

Many months after the divorce she reaches out from time to time, expressing sentimental regret. She let him get away and would like to get him back, but he has moved on. There were no children. She just fades out.

Your STBX thinks that her sex ranking is higher than yours. My bet is that it is not, though she has you fooled. Three or four years from now, she may look back at the pathetic hug by the car as a missed opportunity. As HappyMan always says live a good life and that is all the lesson you need to impart to her. You will have a daughter to take to ballet or swim classes. She will have special medicines for tropical parasites. They will not be herbal.


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## Marc878

Instead of thinking about the good times. Think about how she just walked out and the pain you've went through from her just up and leaving.

It sounds like she's never looked back once.

The negative reinforcement will make it easier for you.

There are better women out there.


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## Marc878

I hope you're doing well MrPack. 

Leave the past where it should be, in the past. Look forward to your new future.

Your life is going to be what you make it.

Best wishes!!!!!


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## MrPack

Hey all, I thought I'd check in since it's a been a little while. I've been busy moving things into storage and working on the house. I had a pretty rough weekend, the whole process of packing and moving things out of the house was weird. I had a lot of mixed emotions, anger, resentment, regret and of course sadness. Feels weird walking around an empty house, all the memories of what our plan used to be and what our dreams were have been flushed down the toilet but it still hurts. I'm sure that is all normal. Other than that nothing new is really going on. I'm trying to get in to see a lawyer next week to at least make sure I know what I'm in for. I have a lot of questions regarding finances. 

Havent heard much from the STBXW the last couple weeks which is a good thing. 

Hope all is well with you all.


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## LongWalk

Are you going to file or let her?

She's flakey. You're better off without her.

If you find yourself thinking about her, put on your running shoes and go a 3-mile jog.

re: finances
You've cut her completely off, right?

Go back reread the post I made about selling the house but not telling her, not cheat her out of her legal share but to let her chase you for the money. She did not contribute equally to your household. Let her be entirely congnizant of that.


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## Marc878

You've been married less than 10 years. You may not have to spilt as much as you think. Get some good advice on this. Your finances are your future.

I'd get rid of everything about her. It'll make the moving on process quicker.

Block everything and only communicate by text. She divorced you in reality when she moved out.

Don't give her a cent without deducting her expenses and cut off everything you're paying for her.

It's the fair/right thing to do. Do it yesterday!!!!


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## Marc878

LongWalk said:


> There is one little trick you could play on her. Hehe. Sell the house and pocket all the money but don't file for divorce. Don't tell her about the sale, the price, her share or anything. Just let her wonder. She would start, reaching out and calling you, trying to figure out whether you were going to deceive her. Let her feel anxious. Let her long to talk to you while you are unreachable. Block her number and don't reply to her emails.
> 
> I think you can have the post office forward your mail. Don't tell her where you move.
> 
> Let her go to the hassle of filing for divorce. Let her spent money consulting a lawyer. Let her invent a demon Mr Pack she never imagined could exist. Ignore her until you are legally obligated to fork over her share.
> 
> Write her a check for her share and conspicuously forward date it in bold print so that she cannot cash it until you are legally bound to pay her.
> 
> Does this sound petty and vindictive? Perhaps. But to me, her asking you to help carry the boxes and have a last packing party in the empty house was purely a passive aggressive way of waving her sex charms in your face. She is taunting you, not because she is evil. You have been co-dependent and she is exercising her rights to the very end.
> 
> In one of TAM's most famous thread's Shamwow has to break free from his cheating STBX. He loves her and is so close to reaching out to take her back. As he recedes from her, she starts to love him again, but she never manages to put her heart before her pride. At one point in the narrative she suffers an epileptic fit and falls down the basement stairs, breaking a rib. Who does she call for help? Shamwow of course. He goes and helps her. It is obvious that he is the best thing in her life but even at that moment she refuses to eat humble pie.
> 
> Many months after the divorce she reaches out from time to time, expressing sentimental regret. She let him get away and would like to get him back, but he has moved on. There were no children. She just fades out.
> 
> Your STBX thinks that her sex ranking is higher than yours. My bet is that it is not, though she has you fooled. Three or four years from now, she may look back at the pathetic hug by the car as a missed opportunity. As HappyMan always says live a good life and that is all the lesson you need to impart to her. You will have a daughter to take to ballet or swim classes. She will have special medicines for tropical parasites. They will not be herbal.


Excellent advice. Man up and quit being her unfed puppy.


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## MrPack

LongWalk said:


> Are you going to file or let her?
> 
> She's flakey. You're better off without her.
> 
> If you find yourself thinking about her, put on your running shoes and go a 3-mile jog.
> 
> re: finances
> You've cut her completely off, right?
> 
> Go back reread the post I made about selling the house but not telling her, not cheat her out of her legal share but to let her chase you for the money. She did not contribute equally to your household. Let her be entirely congnizant of that.


I will be the one to file, I know she doesnt have it in her to do it. She's too busy anyway right? Yes I've cut her off completely, she'll know as soon as the house is sold because she still keeps in close contact with the wife of my neighbor buddy across the street.


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## MrPack

I received a text message from my STBXWs cousin who lives out of state. Her cousin and I were very close over the years, when her and her husband had their daughter they named my wife and I the god parents. She and her daughter are visiting family in my state in November, she wants to meet for lunch so I can see her and my god daughter who is only 2 years old. I'm going to take her up on the offer. It felt good to get that text, my STBXW does have a few family memebers that I will keep in contact with, I guess I dont see a reason to shut them out just because my marriage is over. 

What do you guys think?


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## SecondTime'Round

MrPack said:


> I received a text message from my STBXWs cousin who lives out of state. Her cousin and I were very close over the years, when her and her husband had their daughter they named my wife and I the god parents. She and her daughter are visiting family in my state in November, she wants to meet for lunch so I can see her and my god daughter who is only 2 years old. I'm going to take her up on the offer. It felt good to get that text, my STBXW does have a few family memebers that I will keep in contact with, I guess I dont see a reason to shut them out just because my marriage is over.
> 
> What do you guys think?


I think it's awesome she reached out to you. So many times family members don't know what to do or say so they just stay away and that can be hurtful. 

My ex's cousin was a jr. bridesmaid in our wedding in 1996. Now she's in her twenties with a child of her own. She's the only member of his family I'm still in touch with and I adore her. 

Go to lunch and have fun .


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## Pluto2

Such a nice message to get. 
Some families write-off a spouse in a divorce, others just accept you as the individual you are, so I'm liking the cousin.

I suggest you take pictures because they really are only young once, and you can both enjoy them over the years.


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## Absurdist

MrPack said:


> I received a text message from my STBXWs cousin who lives out of state. Her cousin and I were very close over the years, when her and her husband had their daughter they named my wife and I the god parents. She and her daughter are visiting family in my state in November, she wants to meet for lunch so I can see her and my god daughter who is only 2 years old. I'm going to take her up on the offer. It felt good to get that text, my STBXW does have a few family memebers that I will keep in contact with, I guess I dont see a reason to shut them out just because my marriage is over.
> 
> What do you guys think?


MrPack - you are the child's god parent. Of course you go and see your wife's cousin and your god child. These relationships should not end. They should be cultivated and enjoyed.

And regarding posts about the sale of your house and playing games with MrsPack. With all due respect to the other posters, MrsPack will have to sign the deed to extinguish any marital rights she has in the property. The title company will require her to sign all of the closing documents, seller's affidavits and the closing statement. She will know exactly when the sale occurs since she will be part of the closing process.


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## Marc878

Why not fill them in on the bartender if you get a chance. A little exposure will do you good.


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## farsidejunky

Because there is not enough to confirm, but just enough to question.

I would not even concern myself with the bartender. 

File, sell the house, heal.


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## LongWalk

FSJunkie is right. There is nothing to save here. So, exposure is pointless. It will just make Mr Pack look beaten and weak.

If the cousin is interested, Mr. Pack should just smile and say sometimes things don't work out even when both persons are good and have good intentions. No hard feelings. She's great, blah, blah.

Fake it till you make it.

Mr Pack's god daughter may or may not fade out of his life. Could be that he will be there but ex Mrs Pack will not. Hard to be a good god mother if you are in some new age cult.


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## MrPack

Marc878 said:


> Why not fill them in on the bartender if you get a chance. A little exposure will do you good.


Yea I'm thinking whats the point...I really dont have solid proof that something really is or isnt going on with them. Either way I think Im past the point of blowing that up especially to her family. Someday I may bring it up to her but who knows. 

Now had this lunch been early on in our separation I think it would be a different story.


----------



## Marc878

Got it. just use the energy/time to move on. Doesn't seem like it now but you're going to be just fine.

Has she always been this strange? Seems really odd to me.

You may be pleasantly surprised at what awaits you.


----------



## Pluto2

@Mr. Pack this is a good approach. Take this opportunity to develop your own relationship with your niece (who clearly still wants you in her life) and your goddaughter. Leave your STBX to answer to her family about. Just life your life, it will be good.


----------



## LongWalk

What sports do you play Mr Pack?


----------



## MrPack

LongWalk said:


> What sports do you play Mr Pack?


I grew up playing basketball, but now as an adult I golf quite a bit. PLayed in a softball league for a couple years with buddies but that sort of fizzled out.


----------



## Marc878

So Mr. Pack what's your ideal woman?

You have to start getting your list together!

I prefer curly haired brunettes. I'm a leg and azz man.


----------



## LongWalk

Take up a new sport?

Maybe you can still play basketball?


----------



## Chaparral

In order to move on and prepare for a better relationship and life, you should download the two books linked to below.

Also google the freedownload of NO MORE MISTER NICE GUY. This book has also helped many people but you have to read part of it to see if it applies to you.

HOLD ON TO YOUR N.U.T.S. is also highly recommended.


----------



## LongWalk

Mr Pack if you go and play pick up ball (depends on your physical condition), you will completely forget about your STBXW. You will be tired but happy.

I am not into golf myself but I can imagine that it is fun. If nothing else go to driving range and loft ball after ball into the distance.

Those books that Chaparral recommends will help for sure.


----------



## farsidejunky

Chaparral said:


> In order to move on and prepare for a better relationship and life, you should download the two books linked to below.
> 
> Also google the freedownload of NO MORE MISTER NICE GUY. This book has also helped many people but you have to read part of it to see if it applies to you.
> 
> HOLD ON TO YOUR N.U.T.S. is also highly recommended.


Pack, I would like to echo Chap about Hold On To Your N.U.T's. 

I have read around 10 or so self improvement books since January 2014. Looking back, I wish N.U.T's would have been my first. It was certainly the best IMHO. 

Simply put, it helps a man lay the foundation for who he truly wants to be for himself, not others. Once a man understands this and moves on it, it makes selecting a partner simple. It also give you much insight into how to be a better partner.

That book would do you some good, Pack.


----------



## MrPack

Marc878 said:


> So Mr. Pack what's your ideal woman?
> 
> You have to start getting your list together!
> 
> I prefer curly haired brunettes. I'm a leg and azz man.


Funny you ask, my buddy was asking me the same thing this weekend. I used to be really into blondes. My first serious relationship was with a smokin hot blonde, you know the kind that all my buddies were drooling over before I reeled her in. MY STBXW has dark hair, she's half mexican. 

I would have to say I'll be on the lookout for a nice blonde!


----------



## MrPack

LongWalk said:


> Mr Pack if you go and play pick up ball (depends on your physical condition), you will completely forget about your STBXW. You will be tired but happy.
> 
> I am not into golf myself but I can imagine that it is fun. If nothing else go to driving range and loft ball after ball into the distance.
> 
> Those books that Chaparral recommends will help for sure.


I would say I'm in fairly decent shape. However, I realy need to get a gym routine going. Weight wise and overall internal health I'm great but yea If I were to play in a pick up basketball game I would definatley need a breather here and there. I spent about 2 hours saturday morning doing yard work and then another couple hours loading up my truck with fairly heavy items by myself taking a couple trips to the storage unit. I was wiped out afterwards but it felt good so I could only imagine how good it would feel to play some ball again or get in a nice gym routine. 

Now that its finally starting to cool off I do plan on golfing more, it's relaxing and it's always a great time with buddies.


----------



## Absurdist

MrPack said:


> I would say I'm in fairly decent shape. You need to get in great shape. However, I realy need to get a gym routine going. You need to get it going NOW. You have a friend who is a trainer. Get with him post haste. Start heavy lifting. Weight wise and overall internal health I'm great but yea If I were to play in a pick up basketball game I would definatley need a breather here and there. I spent about 2 hours saturday morning doing yard work and then another couple hours loading up my truck with fairly heavy items by myself taking a couple trips to the storage unit. I was wiped out afterwards but it felt good so I could only imagine how good it would feel to play some ball again or get in a nice gym routine. It would feel great. We have to get you ready. Not for a blonde or a brunette but for you. And oh.... the redhead this time. :wink2:
> 
> Now that its finally starting to cool off I do plan on golfing more, it's relaxing and it's always a great time with buddies.


----------



## LongWalk

Maybe there are meetup.com events for golf?


----------



## MrPack

Hey all, just checking in. 

My house has been on the market for less than a week and I already accepted an offer. After some negotiating I received a full price offer so I'm pretty excited about that. Really weird though, the last page of the paperwork I had to sign last night was a letter from the buyers and a photo of them. I cant make this stuff up. They are a young couple, first time home buyers and getting married next year. They talked about how my house is perfect for them to start their family and how happy they are that they found it. It was a bit ironic and tough reading it. They literally mirror my STBXW and I when we first moved into that house. Same plans for the future and all. 

Anyway aside from the house stuff nothing new is really going on. I kept telling myself that as soon as I sold my house I'd start the divorce process. So here we go. I'm going to start looking into it tonight when I get home. I sure hope it goes as smooth and quicly as the house sale went. 

I hope all is well with everyone.


----------



## Pluto2

Wowee, I plan on selling my home in two years and I only hope it goes that quickly! It is bittersweet to here about the buyers. Maybe they will achieve their dreams. So try to remember that you can start your new life with new dreams, too.

And also remember that equitable distribution is not always equal division. Has your STBX requested any of the proceeds yet? Don't hand anything over until you speak with a lawyer!


----------



## LongWalk

She wants to tell people that "he divorced me" out of the blue.

That's why you somehow ended up responsible for selling the house and filing for divorce.

I suggest that you reduce her share of the proceeds as much as legally possible. Calculate expenses that she owes you. Deduct her share.

For example, you should have bottle of chilled champagne to open with the couple who are buying. You should pop the cork and toast the future with them. Yours and theirs.


----------



## Absurdist

MrPack said:


> Hey all, just checking in.
> 
> My house has been on the market for less than a week and I already accepted an offer. After some negotiating I received a full price offer so I'm pretty excited about that. Really weird though, the last page of the paperwork I had to sign last night was a letter from the buyers and a photo of them. I cant make this stuff up. They are a young couple, first time home buyers and getting married next year. They talked about how my house is perfect for them to start their family and how happy they are that they found it. It was a bit ironic and tough reading it. They literally mirror my STBXW and I when we first moved into that house. Same plans for the future and all.
> 
> Anyway aside from the house stuff nothing new is really going on. I kept telling myself that as soon as I sold my house I'd start the divorce process. So here we go. I'm going to start looking into it tonight when I get home. I sure hope it goes as smooth and quicly as the house sale went.
> 
> I hope all is well with everyone.



Congrats on the sale of your house MrPack. What is the estimate for the closing date? Any contingencies in the offer such as financing, home inspection etc. ? Please go see a lawyer BEFORE the closing so you can get advice regarding the distribution of proceeds and to insure compliance with the laws of your state. You lawyer can guide you on the expenses you can deduct from your STBXW's share.

Remember that you will be required to furnish title insurance and will probably close at a title company. A title company will require your STBXW to sign many, if not most, of the closing documents. You will need to come to an agreement regarding the distribution of sales proceeds before the closing date.

I know you hate the shyte out of this but it's another healthy step down the road for you.

Keep posting.


----------



## LongWalk

if you are steady with NC, 6 months from now she'll message and ask you meet up for coffee. If you take her up on it, she'll be telling you about her unhappy relationships in the cult, her car accident, the dropped computer, etc. If everything goes well for her, she won't contact you. She's not the sort to escape karma – that's my guess. She will also fish for info about you from mutual friends.

Go play basketball. Find out what cool indie bands are coming into town. You should definitely invite the young couple a glass of champagne when you give them the key. Make sure you put a selfie of you and them on Facebook. Your smile will be so broad. And theirs too. Your WW/WAW will not be able to sleep for two nights at least.


----------



## Marc878

Won't be long before you're free of this nightmare.

Protect you finances as best you can.

Good luck to you and hope youre fairing well.


----------



## MrPack

Marc878 said:


> Won't be long before you're free of this nightmare.
> 
> Protect you finances as best you can.
> 
> Good luck to you and hope youre fairing well.


Thank you Marc878. Things are going okay, accepted an offer on my house should be closing within the month should everything go okay with the appraisal and all. Otherwise I'm just going through the motions. The STBXW got an apartment, she moves into it this weekend. Mixed feelings about that, just another reality check regarding where my life is going. 

I'm struggling with having good days and then bad days. I have a lot I still need to do like talk to a lawyer and find an IC. I've been slacking lately and a bit lazy. Not sure why.


----------



## Pluto2

Go get the attorney! Go on! Pick up the phone and stop by the office. Today!
You need to have your ducks in a row BEFORE the closing.

Go on now.


----------



## TooNice

Yes, yes, yes. What Pluto said.

Today. You need to have a chat with an attorney before things close. 

Today. 

I know it's a big step. So is the IC. But they are both so necessary for you to move forward in a healthy and self-preserving way. 

Do it for you, man. You deserve to take care of yourself in this. Just do it.


----------



## Pluto2

TooNice said:


> Yes, yes, yes. What Pluto said.
> 
> Today. You need to have a chat with an attorney before things close.
> 
> Today.
> 
> I know it's a big step. So is the IC. But they are both so necessary for you to move forward in a healthy and self-preserving way.
> 
> Do it for you, man. You deserve to take care of yourself in this. Just do it.


:iagree::iagree:

Go!


----------



## TooNice

It's 3:45pm my time... Did you call yet?

;-)


----------



## farsidejunky

Pluto is right. You are procrastinating because you don't want what the meeting will logically lead you towards.

The medicine rarely tastes goood, Pack, but it is necessary to help you get better.


----------



## Absurdist

Pluto2 said:


> :iagree::iagree:
> 
> Go!


MrPack - I've followed your thread since its inception. You are sorta, kinda like my unknown named son of sorts. I have this advice:

1. For crying out loud listen to Pluto and TooNice. They have your best interests at heart.

2. Go and see a STINKING LAWYER now! You should have consulted with a lawyer before you ever signed the listing contract or the offer and acceptance.

3. I don't even have to read your offer and acceptance to know what's in it. You will no doubt have to buy title insurance for your buyers. It's probably paragraph 5 or 6 of the contract. A title company will do a search of your property, you and MrsPack. If there is something fvcked up there, you will have to clear it. You have no idea what MrsPack has been doing these last few months or what bills or assessments she hasn't paid. You have always been the mop and bucket man of the marriage. You dang sure don't want to find out that she has some unpaid fine, lien or whatever that FUBARs your sale. This is what a dang lawyer is for. He or she can guide your through this process on a dispassionate basis. (Good Lord I seem like an ad for the ABA.... and I loathe most lawyers).

MrPack - I wish I could find MrsPack and shake fairy dust on her and make her return to your marriage. Since I can't, all I can do is stick a cherry bomb up your butt. It's time for you to write the final chapter of this story, have the book bound and put it on the shelf where it belongs. In a year or two this book will be covered in dust and cobwebs. You will be writing the prologue of an entirely different story. You won't even know the old book is still around.


----------



## Absurdist

farsidejunky said:


> Pluto is right. You are procrastinating because you don't want what the meeting will logically lead you towards.
> 
> The medicine rarely tastes goood, Pack, but it is necessary to help you get better.



And listen to Farside too. Even if he is a Vol fan.

38-31 indeed.


----------



## farsidejunky

Absurdist said:


> And listen to Farside too. Even if he is a Vol fan.
> 
> 38-31 indeed.


Whoa.... Dems fightin werds!

Go Mountaineers, even if we can't beat a ranked opponent. But the high school teams we played in the first three games? We owned them....


----------



## LongWalk

Indeed, Mr Pack, my previous advice to you was ill considered. Getting out of this crappy marriage should be a priority. You will feel so much better.

I know that you were attracted to your WW. You felt that happy having her as partner. You can find other women, who are hotter. But hotter alone is not what you need. You need to date women who are not needy and looking for a co-dependent relationship.


----------



## MrPack

Thank you all for the advice and the kick in the A$$ that I really needed right now. Do you think I'll get the answers I need at least for now from a free consultation? Is that how it works anyway? You pick a lawyer and do the consultation and go from there? Sorry, I'm 100% oblivious to this lawyer thing.


----------



## farsidejunky

MrPack said:


> Thank you all for the advice and the kick in the A$$ that I really needed right now. Do you think I'll get the answers I need at least for now from a free consultation? Is that how it works anyway? You pick a lawyer and do the consultation and go from there? Sorry, I'm 100% oblivious to this lawyer thing.


Why don't you make the appointment and find out?


----------



## honcho

MrPack said:


> Thank you all for the advice and the kick in the A$$ that I really needed right now. Do you think I'll get the answers I need at least for now from a free consultation? Is that how it works anyway? You pick a lawyer and do the consultation and go from there? Sorry, I'm 100% oblivious to this lawyer thing.


Free consultation usually just talks in generalities, gives you an idea of what is in store. Steer away from the ones who promise the moon and stars or the let's take her to the cleaners types. 

Find someone who you feel comfortable working with. The two of you aren't fighting and you have managed to steer clear of lots of divorce drama so far. Your best bet is keep it that way, cut a fair deal and go from there. 

Lawyers can create more bad blood in divorce than the divorce itself. You don't need that and on the surface your divorce shouldn't be a hard one.


----------



## TooNice

Do you know anyone who can suggest an attorney for you? Someone who has used one or knows some people in the field?

Not that I want you to take any longer to find one, but I am a fan of personal recommendations in this situation!

And be ready to retain one you like and feel comfortable with.


----------



## turnera

I went to an attorney, got a consultation for $25 for one hour, and she literally loaded me up on every step I needed to take to fix a situation. She said if we needed her to go to bat for us, she'd be happy to, but she'd given me enough advice to do the right thing.


----------



## MrPack

Thanks everyone, I have an old coworker that has been through a divorce in the last 5 years or so. I'll pick his brain today and see if he has a good recommendation for me. 

On a side note, there was a small linen type closet that I didnt even think about that was full of a bunch of crap that belonged to my wife. She had been asking me to send her dimensions of the couch and bedset she's taking but I kept pushing back saying you can measure when you come to pick up the stuff from the linen closet. Well she came over last night. I sat at the kitchen table on my work lap top while she measured the stuff and grabbed the crap from the closet. The couch is a huge sectional and the bedroom set is solid wood...very very heavy. She said she is hiring movers to come pick up the couch and bedset this saturday moring. I was releived to hear that, last thing I want is some of her squirly friends from witch doctor school trying to lug two big A$$ dressers down my stairs putting holes in my walls. Anyway, it was all business we didnt really talk at all except short quick questions she had and then a short good bye when she left.

Of course I still have anger inside about all this but I'm still trying to keep it the way it is without any drama. I'd love it if I could get through this divorce without drama or suprises. I'll keep you all posted but like I said you all gave me the kick in the A$$ I needed in regards to finding a lawyer.


----------



## turnera

Try to remember one thing. When one spouse decides it's over, the OTHER spouse will have intense, horrible, soul-crushing feelings of LOSS OF CONTROL. 

This is an ego issue, more or less. We would all go through the same thing. We THINK we have some sense of control over our lives and then suddenly the ONE person we trusted to go on that journey with us pulls the rug out and WE CAN'T DO A DAMNED THING ABOUT IT.

Don't make this into anything other than what it is - a mental scramble to NOT be the one calling the shots, an ego blow. If you can approach all this from that angle, understanding that, it's a safe bet you can move through your stages of grief more quickly, view this from 10,000 feet above, and really SEE what your other, better, options for life are out there.


----------



## Marc878

Don't give her a cent until you've contacted a lawyer


----------



## Pluto2

Did you make a call about an attorney?


----------



## MrPack

Pluto2 said:


> Did you make a call about an attorney?


I have a consultation appointment at 3pm next Tuesday with the lawyer my buddy from work used for his past divorce and currently uses with his child custody issues. I'm hoping I can at least get my questions regarding her student loans and the sale of the house answered for now. 

What else should I be asking?? I'm not looking to use a lawyer for the actual divorce process unless something drastic changes.


----------



## turnera

You'll likely have him for an hour, so bring a legal pad and write down everything he says. Tell him you need step-by-step instructions for the basic filing. And then ask him for legal steps to take in case of this or that scenario. Come up with every possible bad thing she can try to do to you. And trust me, she'll do half of it. What if she files a restraining order and kicks you out? What if she changes the locks? What if she empties the bank accounts? Waht if she refuses you access to the kids. On and on. Think of every nightmare you can come up with and get his response as to what your rights are.


----------



## Absurdist

MrPack said:


> I have a consultation appointment at 3pm next Tuesday with the lawyer my buddy from work used for his past divorce and currently uses with his child custody issues. I'm hoping I can at least get my questions regarding her student loans and the sale of the house answered for now.
> 
> What else should I be asking?? I'm not looking to use a lawyer for the actual divorce process unless something drastic changes.


Why not use him/her for the divorce process?

I can tell you that unless you signed a guaranty agreement for her student loans, you are not responsible for payment. The sale of your house and the attendant details are of more pressing importance.

MrPack, I understand from this thread that you have almost divided all of your assets and that there is little debt or recurring bills that are jointly owned. In that case, you can perhaps do a "do it yourself" divorce when you elect to do so. I know you don't want to do this now but at least have the lawyer walk you through the process and what is required if you decide to wing it.


----------



## TooNice

For whatever it's worth, I do not regret one dime of my attorney fees. Granted, my marriage was longer than yours, but still. My ex was determined that we could do everything without attorneys, but I insisted that he was no longer looking out for my best interests, so someone had to. The very last thing I wanted was to have any regrets down the road. With the simplicity of your situation, if you choose to retain someone, I should think it would not be an unreasonable expense for you. Just a little food for thought. 

The consultation should clear up for you whether you should hire a lawyer or not. If he's decent, he'll be up front with you about his opinion about it. You might be fine handling it yourself!

In any event, I am glad you have an appointment. It's a step. 

And how about IC? Where are you with that? 


(Such nags you have on your thread, hey?)


----------



## LongWalk

Does she have a new car and you have a VW Rabbit? Make sure the discrepancy in value is balanced in the house settlement. Also, you did all the work to sell it. She's lazy.

You are lucky to be rid of her.


----------



## Pluto2

Don't forget, equitable distribution does not mean you split ever asset 50/50. If this ever went to court so much more goes into any determination. Ask him. You could also ask if he would be willing to review any agreement the two of you reach to finalize everything to make sure nothing is inadvertently omitted.


----------



## MrPack

I want to thank every single one of you for replying to my last post. I worked 14 hours today and am laying in bed struggling to keep my eyes open. Good news is I'm off tomorrow and I will be back on here to read and reply to your comments/advice while my head is clear and not "zombie like". For now thank you all again!


----------



## MrPack

Absurdist said:


> Why not use him/her for the divorce process?
> 
> I can tell you that unless you signed a guaranty agreement for her student loans, you are not responsible for payment. The sale of your house and the attendant details are of more pressing importance.
> 
> MrPack, I understand from this thread that you have almost divided all of your assets and that there is little debt or recurring bills that are jointly owned. In that case, you can perhaps do a "do it yourself" divorce when you elect to do so. I know you don't want to do this now but at least have the lawyer walk you through the process and what is required if you decide to wing it.


Yes, we no longer share any assets and with all honesty the debt she has is her debt under her name only and same for myself. I will take what I can get out of the consultation appointment and go from there on whether I need to go back or not. I would really like to do this divorce without lawyers as I don't have a lot of money laying around for lawyer fees. To tell you the truth she hardly has a pot to pi$$ in financially so my guess is that she would agree on not getting lawyers involved. 

The last few communications with her have been fine, I think we are both on the same page regarding our communication. As awkward as it is and annoying it seems to be okay right now. No fighting, I've done really well not showing her my anger yet. I still don't feel that she deserves to see me angry.


----------



## MrPack

TooNice said:


> For whatever it's worth, I do not regret one dime of my attorney fees. Granted, my marriage was longer than yours, but still. My ex was determined that we could do everything without attorneys, but I insisted that he was no longer looking out for my best interests, so someone had to. The very last thing I wanted was to have any regrets down the road. With the simplicity of your situation, if you choose to retain someone, I should think it would not be an unreasonable expense for you. Just a little food for thought.
> 
> The consultation should clear up for you whether you should hire a lawyer or not. If he's decent, he'll be up front with you about his opinion about it. You might be fine handling it yourself!
> 
> In any event, I am glad you have an appointment. It's a step.
> 
> And how about IC? Where are you with that?
> 
> 
> (Such nags you have on your thread, hey?)


First of all thank you for being a "nag" lol. I need that sometimes to get my a$$ in gear and going on the important things. As for the IC, I had a couple recommendations but neither one was on my EAP list at work. I've found a couple more online that look okay but I may just go with one of the IC that were recommended to me and just pay. Aside from the divorce I really do think IC is the next best thing that needs to happen for me to fully move on.


----------



## MrPack

LongWalk said:


> Does she have a new car and you have a VW Rabbit? Make sure the discrepancy in value is balanced in the house settlement. Also, you did all the work to sell it. She's lazy.
> 
> You are lucky to be rid of her.


She has a newer car but its a piece of garbage. I on the other hand am still driving my 2004 Tahoe which I will be getting rid of after the sale of the house. I'm planning on finally buying myself a new vehicle something nice...I've been looking at new Jeep Grand Cherokees. I've never had a brand new vehicle but now that I can afford one and with the $hit I've gone through I feel I deserve it. 

I've saved all receipts for all the work and things I've had to pay for to get the house on the market. I'm planning on deducting a portion of that from her share of the house profit.


----------



## LongWalk

Assign her car the high end blue book value and yours the low end.

Buy a Jeep Cherokee by all means. However, test drive some really cool cars that you will not buy. Take some selfies with them. Facebook blog them as "the car I took for a spin today." It will drive her crazy.

I'll bet your WW/WAW is very picky about her diet. True?


----------



## Marc878

It'll be like someone getting glasses for the first time. You didn't know how bad it was.

Getting rid of this squirrelly woman may open up a whole new world for you.

Don't give her a penny until she's signs on the bottom line and charge her for everything she should've paid for.


----------



## MrPack

LongWalk said:


> Assign her car the high end blue book value and yours the low end.
> 
> Buy a Jeep Cherokee by all means. However, test drive some really cool cars that you will not buy. Take some selfies with them. Facebook blog them as "the car I took for a spin today." It will drive her crazy.
> 
> I'll bet your WW/WAW is very picky about her diet. True?


Ha, yes she is a vegan.


----------



## LongWalk

I knew it.

But she let Bob the bartender in. His salvia and semen both smells like greasy cheeseburgers.


----------



## TeddieG

LongWalk, how DO you do that? Are you psychic? LOL. Hang in there Mr. Pack and be sure and test drive a BMW! That's MY dream car!


----------



## Absurdist

So MrPack, how did it go with the lawyer?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MrPack

Absurdist said:


> So MrPack, how did it go with the lawyer?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It went good. My whole outlook and hopes for the divorce is that we can agree that her debt is her debt and mine is mine. If she agrees on that I'll put it in the divorce decree same with my 401k and her 401k (which is very little).

The lawyer listened to my story and where I'm at now and agrees that if her and I agree on all this that there is no reason why we shouldnt be able to file on our own. 

My next step is to draw up an email to her explaining what I want regarding the her debt and mine and the 401k. I'm fairly confident she'll agree and I'll start the process. 

The lawyer also reassured me that yes I do in fact have to give her half of the proceeds from the sale of my house.

I'm feeling pretty good about this at the moment, just keeping my fingers crossed that it goes as smooth as I foresee it going.


----------



## Pluto2

MrPack said:


> It went good. My whole outlook and hopes for the divorce is that we can agree that her debt is her debt and mine is mine. If she agrees on that I'll put it in the divorce decree same with my 401k and her 401k (which is very little).
> 
> The lawyer listened to my story and where I'm at now and agrees that if her and I agree on all this that there is no reason why we shouldnt be able to file on our own.
> 
> My next step is to draw up an email to her explaining what I want regarding the her debt and mine and the 401k. I'm fairly confident she'll agree and I'll start the process.
> 
> The lawyer also reassured me that yes I do in fact have to give her half of the proceeds from the sale of my house.
> 
> I'm feeling pretty good about this at the moment, just keeping my fingers crossed that it goes as smooth as I foresee it going.


Glad it went well. Please don't give her half the proceeds UNTIL you've worked out the debt issues. Do it as one deal, that way if there is some offsets to be made, there will be a lump of cash from which to do this. It will make it easier to finalize.


----------



## Absurdist

Pluto2 said:


> Glad it went well. Please don't give her half the proceeds UNTIL you've worked out the debt issues. Do it as one deal, that way if there is some offsets to be made, there will be a lump of cash from which to do this. It will make it easier to finalize.


MrPack/Pluto - the reality is that MrPack will close his sale at a title company. Unless the title company receives instructions to the contrary, it will issue a check to both MrPack and MrsPack jointly. Both MrPack and MrsPack will have to endorse the check and split up the proceeds themselves upon their joint agreement.

Thus MrPack .... it is best that the two of you come to an agreement regarding the disposition of the sales proceeds LONG BEFORE THE CLOSING DATE and that you give WRITTEN instructions to the title company.


----------



## LongWalk

Mr Pack,

Are you working out? Get into shape. Take up the hobbys that you have in your mind. Carpentry or music, whatever. Your STBXW has deceived you profoundly. She has sought to undermine you because she is a negative person, a back stabber, not because she consciously has bad intent. She lives in fantasy. Her idea of you was fantasy. Once you did not live up to her unreal ideas, she believed her vagina would get a new and better guy. She is delusional.


----------



## Vulcan2013

Absurdist said:


> MrPack/Pluto - the reality is that MrPack will close his sale at a title company. Unless the title company receives instructions to the contrary, it will issue a check to both MrPack and MrsPack jointly. Both MrPack and MrsPack will have to endorse the check and split up the proceeds themselves upon their joint agreement.
> 
> Thus MrPack .... it is best that the two of you come to an agreement regarding the disposition of the sales proceeds LONG BEFORE THE CLOSING DATE and that you give WRITTEN instructions to the title company.


Only if she's on the deed and/or mortgage. I'd try to hold her to what she said before. At least limit what she gets.


----------



## Absurdist

Vulcan2013 said:


> Only if she's on the deed and/or mortgage. I'd try to hold her to what she said before. At least limit what she gets.



It is my understanding that MrPack holds title to the property. MrsPack is probably on the mortgage since the property was acquired during the marriage. I don't know if she is on the Note.

All of this is really irrelevant. She has marital interests in the property. Absent an agreement between MrPack and MrsPack, the laws of his state will dictate the percentage she receives. This is essentially the advice his attorney gave him Tuesday.

All the more reason for MrPack to work out the terms of the split prior to closing and to advise the title company accordingly.


----------



## Vulcan2013

She made a verbal agreement. Pack should remind her of this. He may not prevail in court, but he should not roll over.


----------



## MrPack

Had a "melt down tonight". Cried my eyes out like a freakin baby... Was at home alone but I did reach out to a good buddy of mine for someone to vent to. Still felt like a complete baby...It felt good but also came out of no where and made me feel weak.


----------



## farsidejunky

Sorry, brother, but it is okay.

Grieve for the loss of what was and what could have been.

It is necessary to begin to heal.

You are going to be okay, Pack.


----------



## Marc878

It's because you're human.

No big deal.


----------



## honcho

MrPack said:


> Had a "melt down tonight". Cried my eyes out like a freakin baby... Was at home alone but I did reach out to a good buddy of mine for someone to vent to. Still felt like a complete baby...It felt good but also came out of no where and made me feel weak.


You aren't the first or only one. We have all had meltdown nights at some point, at least I have. They can get you when you least expect them.


----------



## Marduk

MrPack said:


> Had a "melt down tonight". Cried my eyes out like a freakin baby... Was at home alone but I did reach out to a good buddy of mine for someone to vent to. Still felt like a complete baby...It felt good but also came out of no where and made me feel weak.


It's good you have a buddy to go to.

Go to them. They will be your best friends and the most proud of you when you rise from this.

And rise you will.

The amount of pain you have for your loss shows the amount that you can care. It's nothing to be ashamed of.

Growth is sometimes painful.


----------



## MrPack

Thanks guys. It was a rough night but it also felt sort of good to let some crap out.


----------



## Marc878

It'll start to dissipate once the divorce is final. In retrospect once she separated you should have filed quicker but such is life.

You'll move on to a better life. Just remember what you've learned here.

Your life is what you make it.


----------



## Pluto2

You're doing just fine Mr. P.
You are showing you are a sensitive human being. Good for you.

Now if you're posting here in a year saying exactly the same thing-then you get a 2x4. I mean, geez, you haven't even filed papers yet. You are still a newbie in this process.

I balled my eyes out when I saw the divorce complaint marked filed by the clerk. I wanted the D, the ex was completely unrepentant and just plain mean at the time. It was the best thing for me and my kids-and still I cried my eyes out. We've all done it.


----------



## MrPack

I think one of the things that's bothering me recently is when and how I will start dating again. I went to my cousins son's 2 year bday party yesterday and it bothered me seeing all the young couples and their kids. That's what I've wanted for years. Now I'm having to start all over and it is a little scary to think about. I haven't really met anyone yet in regards to dating but I also struggle to see where and when I would. I know I need to fix myself first before I can really give anything to a woman but part of my current sort of depression is the fact that I'm alone and haven't met anyone yet. I know it's only been 5 months since she left but this whole being alone thing is killing me. 

My goal this week is to make an appointment with an IC, I found 3 that seem like they could be a good fit. I just need to pick one and go with it. I'm hoping some IC will really help my current attitude and mood towards all of this and my future.


----------



## Marc878

Hey you have a plan that's the biggest part. 

I wouldn't worry about finding someone new. It'll happen when you least expect it.

You're going to do fine. You've learned a lot to prepare for your future. 

Wish you nothing but the best


----------



## turnera

MrPack, so you know, of all the people I know, the couples who are the happiest are generally the ones who have divorced and remarried someone else. Why? IMO, it's because they LEARNED the first time and did a better job the second time.


----------



## farsidejunky

Pack:

In those couples you should see opportunity for yourself.

Why?

Because had your wife not chosen to leave you, you would see couples like this twenty years from now, only the regret would be amplified because you would be too old to do anything about it.

You have an opportunity very few get: a true do over.


----------



## Absurdist

MrPack said:


> I think one of the things that's bothering me recently is when and how I will start dating again. I went to my cousins son's 2 year bday party yesterday and it bothered me seeing all the young couples and their kids. That's what I've wanted for years. Now I'm having to start all over and it is a little scary to think about. I haven't really met anyone yet in regards to dating but I also struggle to see where and when I would. I know I need to fix myself first before I can really give anything to a woman but part of my current sort of depression is the fact that I'm alone and haven't met anyone yet. I know it's only been 5 months since she left but this whole being alone thing is killing me.
> 
> My goal this week is to make an appointment with an IC, I found 3 that seem like they could be a good fit. I just need to pick one and go with it. I'm hoping some IC will really help my current attitude and mood towards all of this and my future.


Sigh.

MrPack - you need to get out of the current relationship before you get into the next one.

You are a young guy with a good job. You are soon to be unattached. Trust me, women will find you if you put yourself into quality social situations. What is a quality social situation? Well, it ain't a bar or a club.

I am very close to two young guys whose wives went off the rails. One found his current wife when he became a volunteer coach for special Olympics. Another started building houses for Habitat for Humanity. In both cases, the women FOUND THEM.

While I was sitting in church today I looked to left and saw Kristi. I looked to my right and saw Julie. Both beautiful, lovely young women waiting for a MrPack to discover them.

They are out there my friend. One will pop into your life when you least expect it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Pluto2

MrPack said:


> I think one of the things that's bothering me recently is when and how I will start dating again. I went to my cousins son's 2 year bday party yesterday and it bothered me seeing all the young couples and their kids. That's what I've wanted for years. Now I'm having to start all over and it is a little scary to think about. I haven't really met anyone yet in regards to dating but I also struggle to see where and when I would. I know I need to fix myself first before I can really give anything to a woman but part of my current sort of depression is the fact that I'm alone and haven't met anyone yet. I know it's only been 5 months since she left but this whole being alone thing is killing me.
> 
> My goal this week is to make an appointment with an IC, I found 3 that seem like they could be a good fit. I just need to pick one and go with it. I'm hoping some IC will really help my current attitude and mood towards all of this and my future.


Mr. P aren't you 33. I didn't have my first child until I was 38. Life has not passed you by-its just starting.


----------



## TrustlostHearbroken

Mr. Pack. When my WW had her first affair, I was around your age. 32 at the time. I went through the separation and ended up reconciling. We had children. Which was the main factors of R. 8 years later, we are heading to divorce. 

At that time. I was afraid like you. It made R easier to consider. If I didn't have children, I would have moved on. 32 is better than 40. You are still young. Like others have mentioned. You have been given a second chance. Use this opportunity to make positive changes in yourself. Learn from this experience and find someone who will compliment your life. Take your time and find yourself again. It is scary but that is what life is about. Learning and living. You will make it. 
This is the time to find yourself. Build that confidence and love yourself. Because if you can't love yourself, how do you expect another person to.


----------



## MrPack

Thank you thank you to you all for your Encouragement. I guess I just hit a wall this weekend and got into the poor pittiful me mindset. I'm taking the words from you all and really letting them sink in. It's a new week and new a start. I'll keep you all posted this week with my progress. Thank you all again, your words of encouragement always help.

I need to be patient with this whole dating thing, I'm starting to understand that more and more.


----------



## Marc878

You're lucky you didn't have kids yet. This is a big break for you. You won't realize it now but later you'll be greatful


----------



## TooNice

How did the rest of your week go, MrPack?


----------



## Marc878

Hey man you made it through another week!


----------



## MrPack

Hey guys, the rest of my week went pretty good. I think I've found an IC, I actually called this morning and left a message to try and get in for an appointment but havent heard back yet. 

Also I went to a birthday party for my good friends 1 year old daughter Saturday. A family friend of theirs whome I've only met a few times was talking my ear off about someone she knows that she wants to hook me up with. This woman is a few years older than me but actually just finalized her divorce from her husband a few months ago. Sort of a similar story to mine, she wanted to start a family and he wasnt ready. Once he was ready they found out he couldnt have kids and also the guy was hiding a bunch of debt and other things from her. Anyway the mutual friend showed me a few pictures and told me all about this woman. I didnt refuse but also didnt make any plans. We'll see if that goes anywhere. I did tell her that I am not ready to jump into a relationship right now but also wouldnt mind spending some time with someone. 

I kept myself busy this weekend. I only worked for a few hours this past friday so I spent the day doing some yard work and walking around the mall trying to figure out what gift to get a 1 year old...wasnt as easy as I thought it would be!

I hope all is well with you guys.


----------



## Absurdist

Absurdist said:


> The idea that you won't be able to find a new relationship is nutty. You are 32, unattached and with a good job. *The wives of your married friends will fall all over themselves trying to play cupid and set you up. They live for such things.* Quite frankly, women will find you. All you have to do is get yourself out into social situations even if you don't feel like it.


MrPack - my very first post on your thread...

Just sayin'...


----------



## Marc878

Yep you'll be swamped I suspect


----------



## MrPack

Stayed home from work today with what seems to be the flu. Luckily I am able to log in from home an do some work but just being home all day in the middle of the week sucks. Work has been a great escape from all the crap so today hasnt been the best but also I feel like I'm growing. Having a day all alone in my house during the week while being sick a few months ago would have been terrible. I've enjoyed my time alone in my house while the sale goes through but I am ready and looking forward to moving out of this house and taking the next step forward. 

I need some advice though. I am getting very close to starting the divorce process and I want to let her know. Part of me thinks we need to talk face to face to ensure that we are still on teh same page with her debt is her debt and mine is mine. That is basically the only major thing lingering over this upcomming divorce since we have no children and we've already split up all of our stuff. Should I text her or email her telling her that we need to talk? Although I have a lot of anger towards her I'm still in the mindset that I want to keep this as civil as possible and avoid any drama/fighting therefore I dont want to just spring divorce paperwork on her without her knowing. Also I feel like she needs to pay for half of the fees, someone from work told me that if we can do it all on our own it will still cost around $1k. She needs to pay for half of that. Us talking face to face certainly wont be fun or easy but I beleive its the right thing to do.

What do you all think?


----------



## Marduk

Why can't this conversation happen through your lawyer?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TooNice

marduk said:


> Why can't this conversation happen through your lawyer?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think they're trying to do it without a lawyer...


----------



## TooNice

MrPack said:


> Stayed home from work today with what seems to be the flu. Luckily I am able to log in from home an do some work but just being home all day in the middle of the week sucks. Work has been a great escape from all the crap so today hasnt been the best but also I feel like I'm growing. Having a day all alone in my house during the week while being sick a few months ago would have been terrible. I've enjoyed my time alone in my house while the sale goes through but I am ready and looking forward to moving out of this house and taking the next step forward.
> 
> I need some advice though. I am getting very close to starting the divorce process and I want to let her know. Part of me thinks we need to talk face to face to ensure that we are still on teh same page with her debt is her debt and mine is mine. That is basically the only major thing lingering over this upcomming divorce since we have no children and we've already split up all of our stuff. Should I text her or email her telling her that we need to talk? Although I have a lot of anger towards her I'm still in the mindset that I want to keep this as civil as possible and avoid any drama/fighting therefore I dont want to just spring divorce paperwork on her without her knowing. Also I feel like she needs to pay for half of the fees, someone from work told me that if we can do it all on our own it will still cost around $1k. She needs to pay for half of that. Us talking face to face certainly wont be fun or easy but I beleive its the right thing to do.
> 
> What do you all think?


It is progress to feel okay with being alone. You'll even start to enjoy it and look forward to it! I love coming home to my cozy little place at the end of the day. Once you find a new place that's yours, it will be even better.

I think you have to decide how much of a conversation needs to take place. I think it is civil to just give a heads up that the paperwork is coming. Does it need to be a sit down, face to face talk? Can you just email her and say "hey, I don't want you to be surprised, but I started the process. Unless you have any objections, we'll proceed with the arrangements we've already discussed. I'm anticipating that we will share the cost of approximately $1000."

Done. 

The more simple your communication is from now on, the easier it will be on you. 

I hope you're feeling better soon!


----------



## turnera

Yeah, I'd just email her and say 'this is what I'm thinking for the division of debt; I believe I've kept it fair. Let me know what you think. I intend to proceed with these figures unless I hear otherwise from you.'


----------



## Pluto2

I would probably say that you are giving her a head's up that you are going to start the process and per your prior discussions, you'll each going to be responsible for your own debts. I personally would not invite a discussion on the issue. 

That lets her know she can expect the agreement and that it will be what you two had discussed, but doesn't encourage any unnecessary conversations, and doesn't give her an excuse to call you back and say she changed her mind. It might help just to get it done a bit faster.

Have you already found a new place? Rent/own?


----------



## LongWalk

Meet her to talk? No.

Turnera is right. Present her with a package and give yourself more. Include fees for getting everything done, since she was lazy and wanted you to do it. As far as being nice. There is no point. If a bolt of lightning reduced you to a lump of charcoal, I don't it would bother her much. She would just tell her New Age quack friends so that they would feel sorry for her.

Your STBX fell out of love with you some time ago. She feels her sex ranking is higher than yours. And the distance between you grew when she started learning about the power of positive thinking while inhaling the acrid smoke of burning herbs. Bob the bartender told her she he had not met such a spiritual woman before when he gazed into her eyes. Once he finished banging her he cracked a beer and hoped she'd soon leave.

The sooner you see her for what she is the better. 

Hit the gym Mr Pack. Take up boxing. Learn to have slightly mean streak, not to be an a hole but a guy who end conversations with jerks as if you were clicking off a light switch.

Read more TAM threads and you will ready to evaluate the women you date in the future.


----------



## Marc878

I'd charge her everything down to the last penny. She just walked out why not,???????


----------



## Absurdist

MrPack - as your ad hoc, ex-officio lawyer (I charge extra for the Latin stuff)... What everyone else has said. Do this in an email. Do not do it in a text or face to face.

"MrsPack

I have contacted an attorney and will be filing for divorce (or dissolution of marriage... whatever it is called in your state).

As we have previously agreed, you will pay and be solely responsible for X. I will pay and be solely responsible for Y. Alll of our assets have been divided. You have no claim to my 401K and I have no claim to yours.

The cost of the divorce is approximately X. You will be responsible for payment of half.

If you have any questions you may contact me."

/s/ MrPack"

Keep this crud simple and to the point.

Get a flu shot MrPack.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## honcho

I'll be in the minority here but I wouldn't even bring up or chase half the legal fees. If you can get it done for a grand eat the 500 bucks and call it a learning experience. 

The goal is to keep this as easy as possible the less "debatable" items the better. She could view the whole pay half the lawyer fee as a control play on your part and she could go hire her own then expect you to pay for half and then the fun starts.....

The easier you make this whole process the better off your going to be and the likelihood she will just agree and go.


----------



## Runs like Dog

I accept I am a mess and every supposedly mature relationship I've been in has been a disaster. Over it over. And that's it.


----------



## MrPack

I agree with almost all of you, an email is where I'm headed. A sit down could lead to other issues and possibly inturupt the progress I'm making.


----------



## MrPack

Runs like Dog said:


> I accept I am a mess and every supposedly mature relationship I've been in has been a disaster. Over it over. And that's it.


I don't understand what your saying here.


----------



## MrPack

marduk said:


> Why can't this conversation happen through your lawyer?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


We're trying to this without a lawyer.


----------



## Marduk

MrPack said:


> We're trying to this without a lawyer.


Sorry, forgot about that. 

I'd just rather you not get wrapped up in her drama.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LongWalk

Meeting her is all neediness


----------



## Vulcan2013

Don't meet her, keep it as impersonal as you can.


----------



## MrPack

Well today would have marked our 7 year wedding anniversary. Feeling a little sad, upset, pissed off and regretful today. Last night I went out with a buddy and had a great time, it was good to get out and get my mind off of stuff. But waking up this morning was hard...I know this divorce is for the best but it's still tough today.


----------



## Marduk

MrPack said:


> Well today would have marked our 7 year wedding anniversary. Feeling a little sad, upset, pissed off and regretful today. Last night I went out with a buddy and had a great time, it was good to get out and get my mind off of stuff. But waking up this morning was hard...I know this divorce is for the best but it's still tough today.


All this shows you are a good guy, pack. 

Let yourself grieve. 

And remind yourself of how much you have to look forward to.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MrPack

marduk said:


> All this shows you are a good guy, pack.
> 
> Let yourself grieve.
> 
> And remind yourself of how much you have to look forward to.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks man.


----------



## Marc878

You are normal and human. 

Better days await you. Getting this divorce over will be a good thing.

It's tough to move on with this hanging over your head.


----------



## MrPack

I think I may have touched on this earlier in my thread. I've suffered from anxiety for years now, it sort of comes and goes. When it's here it can be pretty bad where it keeps me from doing things that I normally like to do. With that said I'm leaving tomorrow to fly out to Wisconsin for my grandfathers funeral. My anxiety had been hanging around recently and now I'm worried about flying and being across the country for a week. I'm not so much worried about the plan crashing as I am worried about having anxiety and being stuck on a plane with no where to go for hours on end. Typically when my anxiety flares up I'll take a walk for a few minutes while it passes. That's obviously not an option while on a plane.

Anyone on here have experience with anxiety issues or advice? I know I'll be okay but I'm a bit nervous. It makes me feel weak.


----------



## Marduk

MrPack said:


> I think I may have touched on this earlier in my thread. I've suffered from anxiety for years now, it sort of comes and goes. When it's here it can be pretty bad where it keeps me from doing things that I normally like to do. With that said I'm leaving tomorrow to fly out to Wisconsin for my grandfathers funeral. My anxiety had been hanging around recently and now I'm worried about flying and being across the country for a week. I'm not so much worried about the plan crashing as I am worried about having anxiety and being stuck on a plane with no where to go for hours on end. Typically when my anxiety flares up I'll take a walk for a few minutes while it passes. That's obviously not an option while on a plane.
> 
> Anyone on here have experience with anxiety issues or advice? I know I'll be okay but I'm a bit nervous. It makes me feel weak.


Just learn to manage it. Distractions, positive thoughts, that kind of stuff.

Why are you anxious about being stuck on a plane? Boredom?


----------



## Pluto2

That makes sense. Your normal coping mechanism, walking, is removed.

Have you ever tried mindfulness meditation? There's some tapes you can listen to while on the plan.

You might consider talking to your MD and getting mild sedative for the flight. Nothing that would knock you out, just very mild to help you cope. 

And I'm sorry about your grandfather's passing. ((hugs))


----------



## turnera

Do you have mala beads? Works wonders for anxiety because it gets you to focus on an activity (moving from bead to bead, counting, reciting a mantra), which takes your thoughts off of whatever you're stressing about. 

They originate from a prayer standpoint, but in a book I was reading, a guy just used them as a mental focusing tool - he picked a phrase from his childhood that made him feel good - I think it was something like pancakes and cartoons or some such, and he'd silently repeat that mantra - pancakes and cartoons - as he touched each bead, then move to the next bead, and repeat the mantra again. And so on, until he got to the first one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IuPmTCbZwSQ&noredirect=1


----------



## farsidejunky

MrPack said:


> I think I may have touched on this earlier in my thread. I've suffered from anxiety for years now, it sort of comes and goes. When it's here it can be pretty bad where it keeps me from doing things that I normally like to do. With that said I'm leaving tomorrow to fly out to Wisconsin for my grandfathers funeral. My anxiety had been hanging around recently and now I'm worried about flying and being across the country for a week. I'm not so much worried about the plan crashing as I am worried about having anxiety and being stuck on a plane with no where to go for hours on end. Typically when my anxiety flares up I'll take a walk for a few minutes while it passes. That's obviously not an option while on a plane.
> 
> Anyone on here have experience with anxiety issues or advice? I know I'll be okay but I'm a bit nervous. It makes me feel weak.


Acceptance that there are things simply beyond your control, Pack.

Acceptance that no matter what happens, you will be okay.

Acceptance, Pack. That is how I overcome my anxiety.


----------



## TooNice

I will second the mindfulness suggestion. I've also struggled with anxiety, and I've used breathing techniques for years. I started mindfulness group learning through my therapist after I moved out. It has been a great help in helping me cope, accept, and move on. 

The Power of Now and Buddha's Brain are good places to start. I know it may sound a little earthy, but I'm all about finding your zen!


----------



## Absurdist

MrPack - some will tell you to drink some Chamomile tea or try a little Lemon Balm. You don't need any of that stuff.

What you need is to laugh at the actions of a complete dumba$$.

I try to be warm and engaging to everyone I meet. I try to encourage folks.

I got on the elevator last week and saw a sweet looking lady who was pregnant (or so I thought). Being the warm, engaging guy that I am I say "Hey, when is your baby due?" She says "Not for a long time since I'm not pregnant."

Oh $hit.

I was going to the 15th floor. The elevator opened on 8 and I got off. The only thing I could think to say was "Well, good luck with the pregnancy".

I think I'm going to open a new store "[email protected]".

So MrPack, when you feel the anxiety coming, just think about the complete nimrod who has posted in your thread and laugh yourself silly.

DOH


----------



## MrPack

marduk said:


> Just learn to manage it. Distractions, positive thoughts, that kind of stuff.
> 
> Why are you anxious about being stuck on a plane? Boredom?


It's more about all the sudden having an anxiety attack and being stuck on a plane. Typically when I've had anxiety attacks I'll get up from what I'm doing and take a walk. 

I just downloaded a couple movies onto my laptop, so I plan to just pop my headphones in and watch a movie or two. I'm feeling better about it this evening. For some reason today I was worried about it.


----------



## MrPack

Pluto2 said:


> That makes sense. Your normal coping mechanism, walking, is removed.
> 
> Have you ever tried mindfulness meditation? There's some tapes you can listen to while on the plan.
> 
> You might consider talking to your MD and getting mild sedative for the flight. Nothing that would knock you out, just very mild to help you cope.
> 
> And I'm sorry about your grandfather's passing. ((hugs))


Thank you, I'm already prescribed a small dose of Xanax for my anxiety. I very rarely take it but I'll have some on hand for sure just in case.


----------



## MrPack

Absurdist said:


> MrPack - some will tell you to drink some Chamomile tea or try a little Lemon Balm. You don't need any of that stuff.
> 
> What you need is to laugh at the actions of a complete dumba$$.
> 
> I try to be warm and engaging to everyone I meet. I try to encourage folks.
> 
> I got on the elevator last week and saw a sweet looking lady who was pregnant (or so I thought). Being the warm, engaging guy that I am I say "Hey, when is your baby due?" She says "Not for a long time since I'm not pregnant."
> 
> Oh $hit.
> 
> I was going to the 15th floor. The elevator opened on 8 and I got off. The only thing I could think to say was "Well, good luck with the pregnancy".
> 
> I think I'm going to open a new store "[email protected]".
> 
> So MrPack, when you feel the anxiety coming, just think about the complete nimrod who has posted in your thread and laugh yourself silly.
> 
> DOH


hahaha wow! That is excellent, I hope you never run into that woman again for the sake of you both lol. I will definitely keep that in my head for a laugh. Thank you sir.


----------



## honcho

Sorry to hear the circumstances that you are coming to Wisconsin. I'd like to tell you to focus on the wonderful fall weather here but you better bring a jacket. Snow flurries and 30's by the weekend. Blaze orange is in fashion as deer hunting opens Saturday haha!


----------



## TooNice

Hope your trip is going well, MrPack. Condolences on your family's loss.


----------



## MrPack

Hey guys, I'm back. The trip went great considering the circumstances. It was awesome spending time with family and just celebrating my grandfathers life. Man it was cold though! I'm glad I'm back in the desert. My anxiety was almost non existent on the plane, I think I just worked myself up regarding that. 

Had some hiccups with the house. I was supposed to close on the 17th, then they said they couldn't close until December which would have meant another mortgage payment (no Bueno). After a couple days my realtor came back and said we should be closing this next week. Keeping my fingers crossed on that one. 

I hope you all had a great week.


----------



## LongWalk

Mr Pack,

Observe that you are the one selling the house, doing the work. Your WW/WAW is just waiting a check with her share.

Don't let her exploit you. Reduce her share as much as reasonable.

Do you have the feeling that she doesn't believe that she really has a right to 50 percent of your common property. After all she never worked much.


----------



## Marc878

Welcome back Mr Pack.

Hey the Packers beat the crap out of the Vikes today.

I was getting worried.

My dog is named Packer for a reason


----------



## TooNice

MrPack said:


> Hey guys, I'm back. The trip went great considering the circumstances. It was awesome spending time with family and just celebrating my grandfathers life. Man it was cold though! I'm glad I'm back in the desert. My anxiety was almost non existent on the plane, I think I just worked myself up regarding that.
> 
> Had some hiccups with the house. I was supposed to close on the 17th, then they said they couldn't close until December which would have meant another mortgage payment (no Bueno). After a couple days my realtor came back and said we should be closing this next week. Keeping my fingers crossed on that one.
> 
> I hope you all had a great week.


Glad to hear you had a good trip back. It is cold here now, though, for sure! Did you get to see any of the snow? 

Fingers crossed for you on the house. Hope all goes smoothly!


----------



## Pluto2

Ugh, there's nothing more aggravating than that limbo of waiting to close a house. Its all out of your control and you just have to wait until everyone else gets there ducks in a row.

So glad you mastered your flight jitters, perhaps you'll do more traveling? Maybe? 

Onward and upward young man.


----------



## Absurdist

Pluto2 said:


> Ugh, there's nothing more aggravating than that limbo of waiting to close a house. Its all out of your control and you just have to wait until everyone else gets there ducks in a row.
> 
> So glad you mastered your flight jitters, perhaps you'll do more traveling? Maybe?
> 
> Onward and upward young man.


MrPack - if they want the house it will close. Trust me.

I suggest you take your share of the sales proceeds and fly to Tahiti. You can take TooNice and Pluto2 with you. It's the least you could do in consideration for their incomparable advice and encouragement. I'm sure they could get off work....


----------



## happy as a clam

Absurdist said:


> I suggest you take your share of the sales proceeds *and fly to Tahiti. * You can take TooNice and Pluto2 with you. It's the least you could do in consideration for their incomparable advice and encouragement. I'm sure they could get off work....


I haven't commented on this thread up to this point (but read it all)... I would like to join in on the trip to Tahiti. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Absurdist

happy as a clam said:


> I haven't commented on this thread up to this point (but read it all)... I would like to join in on the trip to Tahiti.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You can take HAAC as well. Her really ripped hubby may take offense though :surprise:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Pluto2

Absurdist said:


> You can take HAAC as well. Her really ripped hubby may take offense though :surprise:
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think we should all chip in so Happy can bring Mr. Clam. We'll have a TAM party on the beach! Heck of a lot better than the twenty degree weather this morning.

Come on Mr. P-you know you want to..........


----------



## TooNice

I'm in!


----------



## MrPack

TooNice said:


> Glad to hear you had a good trip back. It is cold here now, though, for sure! Did you get to see any of the snow?
> 
> Fingers crossed for you on the house. Hope all goes smoothly!


Lol yes I saw snow. They got about 6 inches one night and I was out there in my vans shoveling snow!


----------



## MrPack

HAHAHAHAHA... TAM party sounds great! I'll start the arrangments lol. I think you all deserve a trip on me for all the advice and words of wisdom over the past 6 months!


----------



## TooNice

MrPack said:


> HAHAHAHAHA... TAM party sounds great! I'll start the arrangments lol. I think you all deserve a trip on me for all the advice and words of wisdom over the past 6 months!


Nah, the words of wisdom are just part of the circle of support here. 

The trip would just be FUN! ;-)


----------



## MrPack

Just talked with my realtor. It's all done!


----------



## Marc878

One step closer to starting your new life. Consider something other than a new Jeep. A friend of mine just got one this summer.

One problem after another


----------



## TooNice

MrPack said:


> Just talked with my realtor. It's all done!


Congrats, Mr. P! You are definitely on your way to the things you deserve in life.


----------



## TooNice

Marc878 said:


> One step closer to starting your new life. Consider something other than a new Jeep.


While I appreciate Mr. Absurdist's recommendation, our TAM trip can be somewhere less costly than Tahiti.  Just so long as it is warm. And not snowing.


----------



## farsidejunky

Awesome, brother.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Marc878

TooNice said:


> While I appreciate Mr. Absurdist's recommendation, our TAM trip can be somewhere less costly than Tahiti.  Just so long as it is warm. And not snowing.


Ahem, I hate to say this but I'm driving to the beach tomorrow. In the 70's so that top will be down.


----------



## TooNice

Somehow I doubt that you really "hated" to say that-lol!


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

MrPack said:


> update....
> 
> I get a call last night from my wifes drunk cousin. He blabbered about how no matter what happens with me and my wife that he will always be there for me and consider me a brother. Then he proceeds to say that he knows nothing but has a feeling that my wife may have met someone else because he thinks this separation just came out of no where. I explained to him that things built up over the past couple years but he just kept saying he thinks theres someone else. Keep in mind my wife has maybe talked to this cousin 2 times in the last 6 months. He swears up and down that he knows nothing, no facts or anything he just has a gut feeling. So anyway I was feeling really good last night up until that call. I dont even talk to the guy much either, he's known in the family for being a drunk and always involved in everyones business but tries to make it seem like he cares. If he truly cared why would he call me all hammered and tell me all his awful suspicions and theories with no facts to back it up?
> 
> I talked to my wife this morning because I was pissed and wanted her to know that her cousin was butting into our business and that of course pissed her off. Apparently the same cousin called her last night soon after he had called me. She said he had been drinking all day and was crying on the phone to her about how sad he is for us. Aside from that while talking to my wife today she said it again that she is not seeing anyone right now and then proceeded to say but we are separated and that she consideres that as being somewhat single. She says to me that if I go on dates or meet another women that she doesnt want to know about it but I dont feel the same way. I'm not doign this separation deal so that we can go out and date people. I konw alot of you will read this post and say oh she's definately seeing another man maybe she is but the one thing that her and I always had was honesty. But now she is acting like just because we are separated that we dont have to know everything about what eachother is doing.
> 
> I'm losing hope every day it seems like, part of me sees us working things out in the future and another part of me says screw this at the very least file for a legal separation and then look at divorce. I dont know what to do and how much time I should sit around thinking about which direction to go.


re: cousin.
Stop dumping your **** on your wife.


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

MrPack said:


> Thank you, I'm already prescribed a small dose of Xanax for my anxiety. I very rarely take it but I'll have some on hand for sure just in case.


Take it just before boarding so it'll kick in soon after take off.
that way you'll fully aware for the troublesome boarding stuff, but you can relax and not get anxious about getting anxious.

part of the problem with panic attacks which grow out of anxiety attacks is they're self-reinforcing feedback. By learning to relax before you face a problem you'll reduce the likelihood of panic attacks.

so the less immediate hassle you have the less anxiety you will have to deal with, so simply talking to someone about something distracting may help - just to break the "merry-go-round" of anxious thought patterns.


----------



## Pluto2

MrPack said:


> Just talked with my realtor. It's all done!


Yah, man.

So glad this is finished! 
Now, I have a big project at work next week, but after that I'm free to travel.:wink2:


----------



## Absurdist

TooNice said:


> While I appreciate Mr. Absurdist's recommendation, our TAM trip can be somewhere less costly than Tahiti.  Just so long as it is warm. And not snowing.


St. Thomas it is MrPack. You get the As and I'll get the Ts. Airplane tickets and accommodations for you, tips and towels for me. :wink2:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MrPack

I hope you all had a great Thanksgiving. That Packers game last night was rough...


----------



## Marc878

Depressing


----------



## TooNice

MrPack said:


> I hope you all had a great Thanksgiving. That Packers game last night was rough...


Painful...


----------



## farsidejunky

Unless you are a Bears fan!

Which I'm not...

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## giddiot

Go Vikings 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## TooNice

Ug.


----------



## Absurdist

TooNice said:


> Ug.


Uggs? You need a nice warm pair Too Nice. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MrPack

giddiot said:


> go vikings
> 
> 
> sent from my iphone using tapatalk


boooooooo!!!


----------



## MrPack

Two weeks ago I text my STBXW asking her if she could call and cancel the direct TV service at our old house. I tried but it was one of the only bills we had that was under her name so they wouldn't let me do it. She say's oh yea I'll do it tomorrow blah blah blah. I left it alone and didn't ask. I get a text today out of the blue saying that she was going to add me as an authorized user to the direct tv account so that I can call and cancel it to avoid confusion. I asked her what confusion she had and she said "that it would be confusing since I have the cable boxes and I need to know where to turn them in or how to send them back". I sat there for a while and didn't text her back. About an hour later she text me back saying "never mind, you took to long to respond so I cancelled it and they will be sending you postage information to ship the boxes back". I just replied with "ok". 

With that said I was pissed for a little bit that she couldn't do this one little thing but instead of texting right back with anger I let it sit and she ended up doing it on her own. Lol seriously she is like the smartest idiot I know. A few months ago I would have let my emotions take over but today I just put my phone down and kept working... 

Anyway, nothing major but that's the latest in that saga. 

And by the way I bought a new car Sunday! 2014 black Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited, fully loaded. This thing looks brand new, has less than 15k miles and I got a smolkin deal. Feels good to finally buy something I'm proud of and enjoy MY money.


----------



## Marc878

Probably had some experimental herbs or something stuck up her azz sideways.

Which caused the right side of her brain not to function.


----------



## farsidejunky

Pack, that right there is her new reality. You did well. 

And congrats on the new Jeep. I have owned 2 different Cherokees over the years, and loved them both. I regret getting rid of them. 


Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## honcho

MrPack said:


> Two weeks ago I text my STBXW asking her if she could call and cancel the direct TV service at our old house. I tried but it was one of the only bills we had that was under her name so they wouldn't let me do it. She say's oh yea I'll do it tomorrow blah blah blah. I left it alone and didn't ask. I get a text today out of the blue saying that she was going to add me as an authorized user to the direct tv account so that I can call and cancel it to avoid confusion. I asked her what confusion she had and she said "that it would be confusing since I have the cable boxes and I need to know where to turn them in or how to send them back". I sat there for a while and didn't text her back. About an hour later she text me back saying "never mind, you took to long to respond so I cancelled it and they will be sending you postage information to ship the boxes back". I just replied with "ok".
> 
> With that said I was pissed for a little bit that she couldn't do this one little thing but instead of texting right back with anger I let it sit and she ended up doing it on her own. Lol seriously she is like the smartest idiot I know. A few months ago I would have let my emotions take over but today I just put my phone down and kept working...
> 
> Anyway, nothing major but that's the latest in that saga.
> 
> And by the way I bought a new car Sunday! 2014 black Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited, fully loaded. This thing looks brand new, has less than 15k miles and I got a smolkin deal. Feels good to finally buy something I'm proud of and enjoy MY money.


People do try and over complicated a simple task. Hope the new suv works well for you.


----------



## Absurdist

MrPack said:


> Two weeks ago I text my STBXW asking her if she could call and cancel the direct TV service at our old house. I tried but it was one of the only bills we had that was under her name so they wouldn't let me do it. She say's oh yea I'll do it tomorrow blah blah blah. I left it alone and didn't ask. I get a text today out of the blue saying that she was going to add me as an authorized user to the direct tv account so that I can call and cancel it to avoid confusion. I asked her what confusion she had and she said "that it would be confusing since I have the cable boxes and I need to know where to turn them in or how to send them back". I sat there for a while and didn't text her back. About an hour later she text me back saying "never mind, you took to long to respond so I cancelled it and they will be sending you postage information to ship the boxes back". I just replied with "ok".
> 
> With that said I was pissed for a little bit that she couldn't do this one little thing but instead of texting right back with anger I let it sit and she ended up doing it on her own. Lol seriously she is like the smartest idiot I know. A few months ago I would have let my emotions take over but today I just put my phone down and kept working...
> 
> Anyway, nothing major but that's the latest in that saga.
> 
> And by the way I bought a new car Sunday! 2014 black Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited, fully loaded. This thing looks brand new, has less than 15k miles and I got a smolkin deal. Feels good to finally buy something I'm proud of and enjoy MY money.


MrPack - I'm advised that Pluto2 and Too Nice (a/k/a the Thelma and Louise of TAM) demand a road trip in the new Cherokee. South Beach is the preferred destination. :wink2:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## farsidejunky

Absurdist said:


> MrPack - I'm advised that Pluto2 and Too Nice (a/k/a the Thelma and Louise of TAM) demand a road trip in the new Cherokee. South Beach is the preferred destination. :wink2:
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Road trip in a Jeep with two lovely ladies? Does it get any better?

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## TooNice

Absurdist said:


> MrPack - I'm advised that Pluto2 and Too Nice (a/k/a the Thelma and Louise of TAM) demand a road trip in the new Cherokee. South Beach is the preferred destination. :wink2:
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Haha! I -do- have some vacation time to burn! :wink2:


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## Lilac23

I would like to suggest that you deduct filing fees and half of each mortgage payment, if she stopped paying half when she moved out, from her share of the profits from the sale of the home. Were you married when you bought the house? If not, the money for the down payment should also be deducted before you divide profits.


----------



## Pluto2

TooNice said:


> Haha! I -do- have some vacation time to burn! :wink2:


TooNice, we have to go with Mr. P! Somewhere with a beach destination and drinks with little umbrellas. >


----------



## Marc878

Packers!!!!!!!!!!!! Yes!!!!


----------



## giddiot

Marc878 said:


> Packers!!!!!!!!!!!! Yes!!!!



Lucky 70 yard throw. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## honcho

giddiot said:


> Lucky 70 yard throw.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Isn't it somewhere in the TAM rules that being a viking fan a bannable offense haha. 

Better to be lucky than good some days for the Packers....yeah team!


----------



## tom67

Da Bears:nerd:


----------



## Marc878

honcho said:


> Isn't it somewhere in the TAM rules that being a viking fan a bannable offense haha.
> 
> Better to be lucky than good some days for the Packers....yeah team!


If it isn't it should be


----------



## TooNice

HTML:







Marc878 said:


> Packers!!!!!!!!!!!! Yes!!!!


That. Was. Incredible.


----------



## Absurdist

TooNice said:


> HTML:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That. Was. Incredible.


Lions, Packers and Bears, oh my!

Rodgers pass was somewhere over the rainbow.

Guys in the yellow brick road unis win.

Toto we're not in Wisconsin any more.

I could do more off this crud.... but I wont.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MrPack

Wow that was awesome last night!!! Not gonna lie i almost shut the game off...glad i didnt! You better beleive i was repin my packers shirt today at work!


----------



## farsidejunky

MrPack said:


> Wow that was awesome last night!!! Not gonna lie i almost shut the game off...glad i didnt! You better beleive i was repin my packers shirt today at work!


Sometimes it is better to be lucky than good... lol

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Absurdist

Checking in with MrPack. He's probably in Tijuana in his Jeep. Pluto and Too Nice had to show their green cards....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## JohnA

Two simple rules of life:

1.) Dumb luck beats careful planning every time.

2,) A smith and Weston always beats a full house


----------



## Pluto2

Absurdist said:


> Checking in with MrPack. He's probably in Tijuana in his Jeep. Pluto and Too Nice had to show their green cards....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Wow, explains why I woke up in a seedy hotel with a tramp stamp. Now I'm off to get some coffee and a tetanus shot. :x


----------



## mrsray2197

I agree, I (the wife) was working hard and doing what I could to save my marriage only to have my husband dimean me. I felt like **** later and abused. He was having an affair but never filed? I finally did. I felt like I was an idiot for letting it go on and trying when he did nothing.


----------



## MrPack

Absurdist said:


> Checking in with MrPack. He's probably in Tijuana in his Jeep. Pluto and Too Nice had to show their green cards....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


How's it going sir?? Tijuana was great! hahaha


----------



## Marc878

Go Packers. The Cowgirls just didn't show up!!!!!


----------



## TooNice

MrPack said:


> How's it going sir?? Tijuana was great! hahaha


I've had some explaining to do about where my tan came from...


----------



## farsidejunky

And the lack of tan lines...

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## TooNice

Shhhh... We agreed to not talk about that.


----------



## MrPack

TooNice said:


> I've had some explaining to do about where my tan came from...


What happens in Tijuanna stays in Tijuanna!!


----------



## MrPack

Hey all, just checking in.

Had a rough end to my weekend. Saturday night my good friends had an xmas party and just as I suspected it was pretty much all couples and me the lone ranger. Saturday was also my birthday, about a couple hours into the party I get a text from MrsPack "Happy birthday, I hope you had a great day". Then about 5 minutes later I got a text from her mom. "Happy birthday, I hope you had a good day. I just wanted you to know that I will always love you no matter what". I simply replied to both texts with "thank you". Yea the texts weren't bad but I could have gone without receiving them. It sort of ruined my night. I woke up yesterday in a fog just feeling like crap and analyzing the stupid texts messages. I had a melt down yesterday and cried for the first time in months. I know that this process is a big roller coaster but it pissed me off that I had the melt down and wasn't able to control my emotions. Needless to say I spent yesterday lounging around the house watching football and being a sad sack. 

I woke up feeling better today but still find myself thinking of stuff that hasn't crossed my mind in a while. Stuff as simple as how did I get into this terrible situation. Questioning why I haven't pulled the trigger yet on filing for divorce. Blah blah blah.

I've been getting advice from coworkers to use a paralegal to help with the divorce process. So now I'm at the point of literally googling paralegals. I also drafted up an email to my wife. We both agreed a long time ago that neither one of us would file without letting the other know about it and I plan to stick by that agreement. My email is short and sweet but for some reason I couldn't get myself to push the send button last night or even this morning.

Anyway, that's where I'm at right now. I am looking forward to time with family this week for xmas but this first xmas without Mrspack is sort of getting to me. 

This might be a dumb question but any of you have any experience with a paralegal maybe even used one for a divorce? Is it as simple as looking online and choosing one?


----------



## honcho

MrPack said:


> Hey all, just checking in.
> 
> Had a rough end to my weekend. Saturday night my good friends had an xmas party and just as I suspected it was pretty much all couples and me the lone ranger. Saturday was also my birthday, about a couple hours into the party I get a text from MrsPack "Happy birthday, I hope you had a great day". Then about 5 minutes later I got a text from her mom. "Happy birthday, I hope you had a good day. I just wanted you to know that I will always love you no matter what". I simply replied to both texts with "thank you". Yea the texts weren't bad but I could have gone without receiving them. It sort of ruined my night. I woke up yesterday in a fog just feeling like crap and analyzing the stupid texts messages. I had a melt down yesterday and cried for the first time in months. I know that this process is a big roller coaster but it pissed me off that I had the melt down and wasn't able to control my emotions. Needless to say I spent yesterday lounging around the house watching football and being a sad sack.
> 
> I woke up feeling better today but still find myself thinking of stuff that hasn't crossed my mind in a while. Stuff as simple as how did I get into this terrible situation. Questioning why I haven't pulled the trigger yet on filing for divorce. Blah blah blah.
> 
> I've been getting advice from coworkers to use a paralegal to help with the divorce process. So now I'm at the point of literally googling paralegals. I also drafted up an email to my wife. We both agreed a long time ago that neither one of us would file without letting the other know about it and I plan to stick by that agreement. My email is short and sweet but for some reason I couldn't get myself to push the send button last night or even this morning.
> 
> Anyway, that's where I'm at right now. I am looking forward to time with family this week for xmas but this first xmas without Mrspack is sort of getting to me.
> 
> This might be a dumb question but any of you have any experience with a paralegal maybe even used one for a divorce? Is it as simple as looking online and choosing one?


The first birthday or Christmas are just wierd and you just have to get thru them. Your going to feel down and blah to a point. I've never been big on Christmas and the first one put me in the dumps. Don't get mad at yourself for a bit of emotions, it happens and part of the journey. 

Your probably going to fiddle with the email a few times but once you hit the send button it only hurts for a minute then you get a sense of relief as the step has been taken. 

Don't have any experience with a paralegal but divorce doesn't have to hard. The two of you seem to be the rare ones where one of the parties isn't battling for toasters and every nickel. Going the paralegal route to make sure the papers are filled out correctly and completely seems the best route to go.


----------



## MrPack

honcho said:


> The first birthday or Christmas are just wierd and you just have to get thru them. Your going to feel down and blah to a point. I've never been big on Christmas and the first one put me in the dumps. Don't get mad at yourself for a bit of emotions, it happens and part of the journey.
> 
> Your probably going to fiddle with the email a few times but once you hit the send button it only hurts for a minute then you get a sense of relief as the step has been taken.
> 
> Don't have any experience with a paralegal but divorce doesn't have to hard. The two of you seem to be the rare ones where one of the parties isn't battling for toasters and every nickel. Going the paralegal route to make sure the papers are filled out correctly and completely seems the best route to go.


Thank you, yes I'm hoping that we are still on the same page and this divorce can go smooth. My goal is to have that email sent to her before Thursday. May seem menial to some but even this short email is hard to finalize and send. 

:surprise:


----------



## Archangel2

Archangel2 said:


> MrPack -
> 
> ...Your wife strikes me as the type who does not know what she's got till it's gone. So give her what she thinks she wants. BE GONE! I hope you can successfully detach and work toward the next chapter of your life. There are many good women out there who will appreciate a good, faithful man. Please don't waste any more time on this self-entitled hypocrite...


As promised, looks like Mr. Pack needs another dose of "inspiration"


----------



## Marc878

Think of it like this.

She left you and never looked back. You are living in limbo for someone who doesn't give a sh!t about you. She isn't even feeding you much in the way of breadcrumbs.

Until you cut the ties and move on you're just gonna waste more time and life with the hopeless hope she'll magically come back and everything will be perfect.

In retrospect you'd have been much better off to have filed the day she walked out of your life.

No one is going to do this for you. You need to get this over with, block her on everything and move on.


----------



## farsidejunky

Pack, you have made huge progress.

Don't beat yourself up by looking at an off day versus your overall positive trajectory.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Absurdist

MrPack - as your ad hoc life counselor and lawyer (I don't do this domestic relations stuff... I will sue your hedge fund for securities fraud and 10 (b) 5 violations...)... You can't just hire a paralegal. A paralegal works under the aegis of a lawyer. You hire the lawyer and then ask that the paralegal does all the work.

You don't need much. Your kind of divorce is just a paperwork intensive process. Someone to make sure all the right forms are filed. A QDRO or two.

You and STBXMrsPack have already split all the assets and debts. There's nothing to litigate here.

Get the lawyer/paralegal on board, the forms completed and then hit send on the email.

You will feel so much better. The birthday greetings were nothing more than STBXMrsPack trying to feel better about herself. More for her than you.

MrPack - I've been a life coach/mentor for many young guys that have walked in your shoes. I know what I'm talking about. You'll always feel like $hit during the holidays.

Every year I grow more thankful for MrsAbsurdist.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Pluto2

I'll help you, Mr. P. [send]

See, that wasn't too bad.

Absurdist has given good advice, as usual. So just rip that bandage off and call one attorney that someone you know can recommend. Yours is an easy divorce. In my little area, you can get an uncontested divorce like yours for about $300-400. (property already divided, no kids, no support). This might sting, but do it as a Christmas present for yourself. This is a way to start you new life.

And as for being alone, most nice girls (and I can say "girls" because I don't check the same age-group-box as you), don't get involved with married men. You can fix that. You have the power over your own life, dude. Now its time to use it. I am soooo team Pack!


----------



## TooNice

MrPack said:


> Hey all, just checking in.
> 
> Had a rough end to my weekend. Saturday night my good friends had an xmas party and just as I suspected it was pretty much all couples and me the lone ranger. Saturday was also my birthday, about a couple hours into the party I get a text from MrsPack "Happy birthday, I hope you had a great day". Then about 5 minutes later I got a text from her mom. "Happy birthday, I hope you had a good day. I just wanted you to know that I will always love you no matter what". I simply replied to both texts with "thank you". Yea the texts weren't bad but I could have gone without receiving them. It sort of ruined my night. I woke up yesterday in a fog just feeling like crap and analyzing the stupid texts messages. I had a melt down yesterday and cried for the first time in months. I know that this process is a big roller coaster but it pissed me off that I had the melt down and wasn't able to control my emotions. Needless to say I spent yesterday lounging around the house watching football and being a sad sack.
> 
> I woke up feeling better today but still find myself thinking of stuff that hasn't crossed my mind in a while. Stuff as simple as how did I get into this terrible situation. Questioning why I haven't pulled the trigger yet on filing for divorce. Blah blah blah.
> 
> I've been getting advice from coworkers to use a paralegal to help with the divorce process. So now I'm at the point of literally googling paralegals. I also drafted up an email to my wife. We both agreed a long time ago that neither one of us would file without letting the other know about it and I plan to stick by that agreement. My email is short and sweet but for some reason I couldn't get myself to push the send button last night or even this morning.
> 
> Anyway, that's where I'm at right now. I am looking forward to time with family this week for xmas but this first xmas without Mrspack is sort of getting to me.
> 
> This might be a dumb question but any of you have any experience with a paralegal maybe even used one for a divorce? Is it as simple as looking online and choosing one?


Everything that happened to you is totally, completely, and undeniable normal. The roller coaster of feelings continues for awhile, but I promise you that the hills get smaller and further apart. You really have come far, MrPack, and I know that you already see more brighter days than gloomy ones. That's huge progress. Be sure you are giving yourself credit for that!

We hear it again and again, but it's true that the first year of events is the hardest. Thanksgiving last year was tough. This year was better, but I also had my night blown when I saw a picture of four generations of men in my ex's family posted on social media...with a comment from the OW on it. Grrrr. It still happens. 

Christmas last year was practically a Lifetime movie, with me curled up alone in my apartment in tears. This year, I am typing this poolside from the warm weather home of the dearest friends I know. You figure things out as you go, and some of the stages need to happen in order to get to the next one. 

I love the idea of that e-mail being a gift to yourself. Permission to you to start the new life that is waiting for you! Firm up the details of the lawyer side, and hit send. You got this. 


And Happy Birthday!


----------



## Marduk

I know it's hard. It will get better. Make a new tradition out of it instead of mourning the old.

FWIW, I would have killed for a phone call or acknowledgement from my ex's parents even once -- I ceased to exist when she left.


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## MrPack

I left a message with the lawyer that I saw for a free consultation a while back. Basically asking if he had a paralegal that could simply help me in gathering all the correct paperwork. Should I wait until that is all set before I send the email? I'd like to have things set with the lawyers office when I send the email, instead of sending it now with no real answers.


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## farsidejunky

Get everything set first. It should not take much more than a few weeks.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Absurdist

farsidejunky said:


> Get everything set first. It should not take much more than a few weeks.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Completely agree with Farside. Get all your paperwork ready to file and then send the email.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MrPack

Thanks guys... Trying to be in the Xmas spirit today but it's not happening. I'm pretty much a Scrooge this year lol.


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## farsidejunky

MrPack said:


> Thanks guys... Trying to be in the Xmas spirit today but it's not happening. I'm pretty much a Scrooge this year lol.


That is okay. You have earned some Scrooge time...some...

After Christmas, get back to being great. There is not time to feel sorry for yourself when you are busy being great... 



Merry Christmas, Pack.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## TooNice

Merry Christmas, MrPack. 

And to all on Team Pack, as well!


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## MrPack

Merry Christmas everyone. I woke up feeling a little less "scrooge-ish". In about 4 hours my parents house will be full of 20 close friends and family, It'll be a great day for sure. 

I want to thank you all once again for being there when I needed it. Every single one of you has had a major impact on my growth process through all this mess. I hope you all are enjoying family/friend time and have a blessed day!


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## Pluto2

Merry Christmas Mr. Pack!

Your saying you felt a little Scrooge-ish just made be think of the Bill Murray movie "Scrooged" and the scene where Carol Kane whacks him in the head with a toaster. Nothing like hitting people in the head with small kitchen appliances to celebrate the holiday!
Happy Boxer Day!


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## MrPack

Just got my new health insurance card in the mail today including mrspack card. Do I just text and ask for her address so I can mail it to her? Don't really feel like giving it to her in person.


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## Marc878

You seriously need to read No More Mr Nice Guy. She left you months ago and has never looked back.

You need to get the divorce papers filed and move on with your life.

What are you waiting on? She's never coming back.

Don't send the card and cancel it. You owe her nothing.


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## TooNice

Marc878 said:


> You seriously need to read No More Mr Nice Guy. She left you months ago and has never looked back.
> 
> You need to get the divorce papers filed and move on with your life.
> 
> What are you waiting on? She's never coming back.
> 
> Don't send the card and cancel it. You owe her nothing.


In MrPack's defense, I think he has made great progress. I don't think he's given any indication recently that he's hoping for reconciliation. Since they are not legally divorced yet, my guess is that he may not be able to simply cancel her insurance. Although it's also not his responsibility to make sure she has her new card. >

MrPack, you may want to have a talk with your benefits manager about that side of things.


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## Marc878

I wish Mr Pack all the best but Mr Pack she left 8 months ago. 

It's time for you to live the rest of your life. You aren't responsible for her or anything about her now.

You just need to file and be done with this. It's your life you can live it as you choose.


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## MrPack

Yes I need to move on, yes I need to file. But legally right now I cannot take her off of my insurance. Is my third option just not even sending her the new card? Cause I'm fine with that too. I have a call back to a lawyers office tomorrow to talk with his paralegal about starting the divorce. 

So.... Should I just not even say anything about the new insurance card?


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## MrPack

And by the way I am not thinking for one bit that reconciliation is in the cards. She eff'd me over too much for me to even want her back.


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## Marc878

MrPack said:


> Yes I need to move on, yes I need to file. But legally right now I cannot take her off of my insurance. Is my third option just not even sending her the new card? Cause I'm fine with that too. I have a call back to a lawyers office tomorrow to talk with his paralegal about starting the divorce.
> 
> So.... Should I just not even say anything about the new insurance card?


Usually you have to pay extra for spousal insurance and it's not cheap.

Why would you legally be responsible for her unless you're just making sure if something were to happen you wouldn't be liable for the cost?


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## Marc878

You may be in the same shape I am and not thinking right after the St Loius game.

I had hopes the Pack was peaking like they did when they won the last Super Bowl but ugh doesn't look like it now.


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## Marc878

MrPack said:


> Yes I need to move on, yes I need to file. But legally right now I cannot take her off of my insurance. Is my third option just not even sending her the new card? Cause I'm fine with that too. I have a call back to a lawyers office tomorrow to talk with his paralegal about starting the divorce.
> 
> So.... Should I just not even say anything about the new insurance card?


Id just hold it. Let her ask for it if she wants it.


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## turnera

Why can't you take her off your insurance?


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## honcho

MrPack said:


> Yes I need to move on, yes I need to file. But legally right now I cannot take her off of my insurance. Is my third option just not even sending her the new card? Cause I'm fine with that too. I have a call back to a lawyers office tomorrow to talk with his paralegal about starting the divorce.
> 
> So.... Should I just not even say anything about the new insurance card?


Once you file for divorce and she is on your policy your going to have to keep her on insurance most likely till the divorce is final. 

Does she run to the doctor a great deal or have prescriptions? Is she working full time and can she get insurance thru them? I wouldn't rush off to send the new card but if you cancel her I think legally she has to be notified so she can chose to either cobra or get a new policy. Obama has changed so many of those rules it's hard to keep track anymore.


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## Absurdist

MrPack - you have always cleaned up after MrsPack. The next woman in your life is going to get such a guy.

As Honcho says, go to your HR department. Every health plan is different. Explain your situation and let HR help you. Those folks have seen all this before.

MrPack - you may have an obligation to continue her coverage until she makes other arrangements. You have no obligation to send her the damn card. Let her come to you if she needs an OBGYN appointment.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TooNice

In many situations, you cannot simply remove a spouse from your insurance except in the case of a major life event. This would include spouse getting a new job, or a divorce... but the divorce typically needs to be final. So it is unlikely MrPack can remove MrsPack from his policy just yet. That does not, however, mean he is under any obligation to forward that new insurance card to her. She can figure that out when she pulls out her card for her next doctor appointment!

And again, yes... please go speak with your benefits manager. I know mine was awesome when I went through my divorce!


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## Pluto2

Yep, my plan only allowed changes for major life events. Under the plan we had, a legal separation would have qualified, which is why you go talk to HR and see what your plan provides.

Don't contact her to take care of her life's details. That is her job. Maybe you could give it back to HR and tell them you don't have her address.

Now when is the apt with the attorney to get the D going?


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## MrPack

turnera said:


> Why can't you take her off your insurance?


I'll find out more when I get an appointment with the lawyer or his paralegal but I've been told that even after the divorce is filied I have to leave her on my insurance for a certain amount of time. I could be wrong but I wont know for sure until next week.


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## MrPack

Pluto2 said:


> Yep, my plan only allowed changes for major life events. Under the plan we had, a legal separation would have qualified, which is why you go talk to HR and see what your plan provides.
> 
> Don't contact her to take care of her life's details. That is her job. Maybe you could give it back to HR and tell them you don't have her address.
> 
> Now when is the apt with the attorney to get the D going?


I'm trying to get in with the lawyers office early next week.


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## MrPack

Absurdist said:


> MrPack - you have always cleaned up after MrsPack. The next woman in your life is going to get such a guy.
> 
> As Honcho says, go to your HR department. Every health plan is different. Explain your situation and let HR help you. Those folks have seen all this before.
> 
> MrPack - you may have an obligation to continue her coverage until she makes other arrangements. You have no obligation to send her the damn card. *Let her come to you if she needs an OBGYN appointment.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


AMEN to that, the card will sit in my wallet until she asks for it which she most likely wont because she has no clue what goes on in the adult world.


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## MrPack

honcho said:


> Once you file for divorce and she is on your policy your going to have to keep her on insurance most likely till the divorce is final.
> 
> Does she run to the doctor a great deal or have prescriptions? Is she working full time and can she get insurance thru them? I wouldn't rush off to send the new card but if you cancel her I think legally she has to be notified so she can chose to either cobra or get a new policy. Obama has changed so many of those rules it's hard to keep track anymore.


As far as I know she is not working fulltime, she is a fulltime student at the witch doctor school and I'm sure still just workinig part time here and there at the office. As for running to the doctor she's never been that type of person. I can say that she has some sort of perscription as of a month ago, I was getting automated calls from the pharmacy for a perscription refill and it wasnt mine. I since sent her a text to fix her account so I could stop getting the annoying calls. Not sure what the perscription is for, probably birth control or some $hit or maybe some crazy witch doctor meds....I dunno...


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## MrPack

Oh and yes I will be walking into my HR department Monday next week once I'm back in the office. Hopefully they can also shed some light on the bennefits aspect to all this. 

In the mean time I'm going to go enjoy a round of golf with my dad and a couple of my buddies today. Its a bit cold out today for my region of the states but non the less I need to get out and do something.


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## LongWalk

Which doctor is she? Doctor Witch or Witch Doctor? 

There are four herbs that are quite effective natural birth control methods that she could employ to keep it real. link



> 1. Queen Anne’s Lace
> wild carrot
> 
> Another herb that is used as a natural birth control is Queen Anne’s Lace, also known as wild carrot. Mainly the seeds collected from the flower head of this herb work as a contraceptive. The seeds block progesterone synthesis, disrupting implantation, and are most effective as emergency contraception.
> 
> Several studies on wild carrot seeds as effective birth control have been encouraging. The extracts of the seeds disrupt the implantation process, and a fertilized egg will find implantation very difficult.
> 
> Some people may experience mild side effects like constipation for a few days when using Queen Anne’s Lace. Plus, it may not be suitable for those with a history of kidney or gallstones.
> 
> Take one teaspoon of wild carrot seeds within eight hours of being exposed to sperm and continue once daily for another seven days. Chew the seeds for maximum effectiveness.
> Queen Anne’s Lace can also be used in tincture or tea form.
> Note: Do not use Queen Anne’s Lace if you are breast feeding. Do not confuse this herb with similar-looking deadly plants like poison hemlock and water hemlock.
> 
> 2. Blue Cohosh
> blue cohosh root
> 
> The root of the blue cohosh plant is used as an effective natural birth control. Blue cohosh contains two uterine-contracting substances, one that mimics the hormone oxytocin, and the other a saponin called Caulosaponin. In case you are not using any protective measures, drink some tea made from blue cohosh soon after.
> 
> Add one teaspoon of blue cohosh to one quart of boiling water.
> Steep for five minutes.
> Sip this tea slowly, no more than three times per day (or no more than 300 to 400 mg daily) until your menstrual period starts.
> Note: Blue cohosh has some side effects, so it is best to use this herb under the guidance of an herbalist.
> 
> 3. Pennyroyal
> pennyroyal tea
> 
> Pennyroyal is a plant in the mint genus that has been used as birth control by the ancient Greeks and Romans. This herb works as an emmenagogue to promote menstrual flow and as an abortifacient to initiate self-abortion.
> 
> According to the Orgone Biophysical Research Lab, women may be prescribed pennyroyal in combination with other herbs to stop pregnancy.
> 
> Both fresh and dried leaves of this herb can be used for birth control. Pennyroyal tea can help induce menstruation and abortion.
> 
> Sponsored links
> Boil eight ounces of spring or distilled water.
> Remove from heat and add one teaspoon of dried pennyroyal to the boiling water and allow it to stand for 10 to 15 minutes.
> Strain and add a little honey if desired.
> Drink the tea immediately following unprotected sex and before implantation of a fertilized egg can occur for maximum effectiveness.
> Note: Pennyroyal as natural birth control should be taken cautiously as it can cause liver and kidney damage, nervous system damage and a host of other problems. Do not drink more than three cups of pennyroyal tea within a six-day period. Do not drink this tea if your menstrual period is more than 10 days late.
> 
> 4. Neem
> neem
> 
> Neem, also called Indian lilac, is a popular herb used extensively for birth control for women as well as men. As a birth control method, neem leaves, neem leaf extract and neem oil are used.
> 
> Neem has spermicidal action. For women, a single injection of a minute amount of neem oil in the uterine horns (the points where the uterus and fallopian tubes meet) will create a reversible block in fertility for a year without causing changes in menstrual cycles or ovarian function.
> 
> Researchers have found that neem oil can slow the motility of sperm, preventing their ability to reach their destination and fertilize the egg. In fact, neem oil can kill sperm in the vaginal region within just 30 seconds.
> 
> For men, ingesting neem leaf tablets for one month produces reversible male anti-fertility. Even daily oral doses of neem seed oil in gelatin-capsule form can also be taken as birth control. Using neem as a birth control method does not affect sperm production or libido.
> 
> Along with preventing pregnancy, neem also provides protection from vaginal and sexually transmitted diseases due to its antibiotic, antiviral and immune-stimulating properties.
> 
> If herbal birth control appeals to you, be sure to use the exact herb and follow the proper proportions. Along with these anti-fertility herbal remedies, it is essential to use a simple barrier method like the female or male condom to prevent pregnancy.


----------



## MrPack

I'm also struggling with the fact that tomorrow is NYE. I was invited to go hangout with my buddy, his girl he's dating and her friends but to be honest nothing sounds fun to me. It's like id rather sit at home alone tomorrow night. I just want this year to end. 

Is it normal that I'm feeling this way about NYE?


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## Marc878

Under the circumstances yes. That's why you need to end this so you can move on quicker. It's still hanging over your head.


----------



## TooNice

MrPack said:


> I'm also struggling with the fact that tomorrow is NYE. I was invited to go hangout with my buddy, his girl he's dating and her friends but to be honest nothing sounds fun to me. It's like id rather sit at home alone tomorrow night. I just want this year to end.
> 
> Is it normal that I'm feeling this way about NYE?


Totally normal. Do whatever feels right for you, just be sure that if you are alone, it's quality alone time, and not wallowing time. 

You could always head back to WI and head downtown with me and my friends... Pluto can come, too, and we can rehash the deets of our last trip! ;-)


----------



## farsidejunky

MrPack said:


> I'm also struggling with the fact that tomorrow is NYE. I was invited to go hangout with my buddy, his girl he's dating and her friends but to be honest nothing sounds fun to me. It's like id rather sit at home alone tomorrow night. I just want this year to end.
> 
> Is it normal that I'm feeling this way about NYE?


Go out, Pack.

Get out of the victim chair and have fun.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## honcho

TooNice said:


> You could always head back to WI and head downtown with me and my friends... Pluto can come, too, and we can rehash the deets of our last trip! ;-)


Yes he needs a refresher course on how a snow shovel works!

Wanting to be alone on nye isn't unusual. I stayed at home and parked my butt on couch with the dogs. I also sat and wallowed in my misery remembering all the fun times etc. 

You don't feel like going out with your friends but I suggest you do, the night passes much quicker. You won't have the night of your life but it will make the day/night go much quicker and you won't play mind games with yourself.


----------



## Absurdist

MrPack said:


> I'm also struggling with the fact that tomorrow is NYE. I was invited to go hangout with my buddy, his girl he's dating and *her friends* but to be honest nothing sounds fun to me. It's like id rather sit at home alone tomorrow night. I just want this year to end.
> 
> Is it normal that I'm feeling this way about NYE?


MrPack - emphasis on her friends. DANG IT!!!!! If you don't go out with your buddy, his gf and HER FRIENDS I may crawl through this modem, grab you by the ears and smack your head on your laptop.

You have a great chance to have a good time. Don't spend it moping at home like some hermit. Go out and meet HER FRIENDS. Just lay off the hooch.

NOW GET YOURSELF OUT THERE. NOW!!!!


----------



## Marc878

Absurdist said:


> MrPack - emphasis on her friends. DANG IT!!!!! If you don't go out with your buddy, his gf and HER FRIENDS I may crawl through this modem, grab you by the ears and smack your head on your laptop.
> 
> You have a great chance to have a good time. Don't spend it moping at home like some hermit. Go out and meet HER FRIENDS. Just lay off the hooch.
> 
> NOW GET YOURSELF OUT THERE. NOW!!!!


I second this and better yet have them set you up with a blind dare.

But be careful I married one. Yikes!!!!!! Luckiest woman I know :wink2:


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## MrPack

TooNice said:


> Totally normal. Do whatever feels right for you, just be sure that if you are alone, it's quality alone time, and not wallowing time.
> 
> You could always head back to WI and head downtown with me and my friends... Pluto can come, too, and we can rehash the deets of our last trip! ;-)


Tempting for sure!


----------



## MrPack

Of course I wake up today not wanting to go out tonight and I'm also sitting here worrying that I'll run into MrsPack if I do go out tonight. 

I know I need to go out and not sit at home alone but what do I do if I run into her?


----------



## Marc878

You don't acknowledge her in anyway. She's the mailman now you know her but you don't care.

Look she divorced you over 8 months ago, just walked out and never looked back. 

Are you going to let this control your whole life???? Cmon, set around the house and mope????

She's not worth one second of your time now. STOP!!!!!!!!!

If you do happen to run into her and she's says anything just say hello, excuse me and walk off. You can find something else to keep your attention. Do not engage her in any way. There is nothing left now. Except a waste of your time and life.

Man up and move on already. The worst thing you can do is set around being miserable.


----------



## MrPack

Marc878 said:


> You don't acknowledge her in anyway. She's the mailman now you know her but you don't care.
> 
> Look she divorced you over 8 months ago, just walked out and never looked back.
> 
> Are you going to let this control your whole life???? Cmon, set around the house and mope????
> 
> She's not worth one second of your time now. STOP!!!!!!!!!
> 
> If you do happen to run into her and she's says anything just say hello, excuse me and walk off. You can find something else to keep your attention. Do not engage her in any way. There is nothing left now. Except a waste of your time and life.
> 
> Man up and move on already. The worst thing you can do is set around being miserable.


Thanks Marc, I also got a "kick in the a$$" from my best buddy yesterday. He basically said the same things you just did. 

I went out and it was a great time. We decided to go to a house party, nothing too crazy but it was certainly better than sitting at home feeling sorry for myself. Only bad thing was that there were no single ladies there that caught my eye.


----------



## Marc878

The more you do the quicker she fades from memory. So even if you don't feel like going out force yourself. Just like last night you'll have a good time.

You have much to learn grasshopper


----------



## Absurdist

MrPack said:


> Thanks Marc, I also got a "kick in the a$$" from my best buddy yesterday. He basically said the same things you just did.
> 
> I went out and it was a great time. We decided to go to a house party, nothing too crazy but it was certainly better than sitting at home feeling sorry for myself. Only bad thing was that there were no single ladies there that caught my eye.


Keep looking. One will find you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MrPack

Well I did more research today while at work and reached out to an old neighbor/friend who recently divorced his wife. He suggested a company called the divorce store (yes its a real thing). I called and they explained that for a fee they will prepare all the documents for the divorce, get it notarized and send it to the courts to file. I've decided that this option seems to most logical and easiest option I have. I plan to call them back tomorrow morning to schedule an appointment to start the process.

With that said I sent Mrspack an email right after I was done talking to them. In short I told her that the most realistic next step for us is divorce. I explained to her my plan to get it filed. I also asked her to agree that her debt is her debt, mine is mine, all assets have already been split and that we would split the fees of the divorce. I said that after I'm done with the appointment I'll let her know the next step (whether she needs to go there on her time to sign documents or what). I thought to myself I'll be sitting here for at least a full 24 hours before I get a response from her. I was wrong, she literally replied to my email within 15 minutes. 

Her email was very short and to the point like mine. She agreed to the terms and also agreed to split the cost of the divorce. She also thanked me twice, once for taking the time to send her the heads up email and once for taking the time to research the best option to get the divorce process started. She then talked about how this is her last week of break from school and starting Monday she will not have any time outside of school and work. Basically her way of telling me she wont be of any help same ole $hit I've been hearing for years.

Anyway, I do feel a little weight lifted off my shoulders after sending that email and her responding to it so quickly but also I feel sad, pissed off and just flat out upset. I know 100% that our marriage is over and that it is certainly for the best but its still very hard.


----------



## farsidejunky

Well done, Pack.

Now pull the trigger.



Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Marc878

Hahahaha, you should have said, "just like old times!"


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## honcho

MrPack said:


> Well I did more research today while at work and reached out to an old neighbor/friend who recently divorced his wife. He suggested a company called the divorce store (yes its a real thing). I called and they explained that for a fee they will prepare all the documents for the divorce, get it notarized and send it to the courts to file. I've decided that this option seems to most logical and easiest option I have. I plan to call them back tomorrow morning to schedule an appointment to start the process.
> 
> With that said I sent Mrspack an email right after I was done talking to them. In short I told her that the most realistic next step for us is divorce. I explained to her my plan to get it filed. I also asked her to agree that her debt is her debt, mine is mine, all assets have already been split and that we would split the fees of the divorce. I said that after I'm done with the appointment I'll let her know the next step (whether she needs to go there on her time to sign documents or what). I thought to myself I'll be sitting here for at least a full 24 hours before I get a response from her. I was wrong, she literally replied to my email within 15 minutes.
> 
> Her email was very short and to the point like mine. She agreed to the terms and also agreed to split the cost of the divorce. She also thanked me twice, once for taking the time to send her the heads up email and once for taking the time to research the best option to get the divorce process started. She then talked about how this is her last week of break from school and starting Monday she will not have any time outside of school and work. Basically her way of telling me she wont be of any help same ole $hit I've been hearing for years.
> 
> Anyway, I do feel a little weight lifted off my shoulders after sending that email and her responding to it so quickly but also I feel sad, pissed off and just flat out upset. I know 100% that our marriage is over and that it is certainly for the best but its still very hard.


Good news, now get it written up and done and over with. The two of you seemingly will have the ever elusive amicable divorce. Don't jinx it now by taking time on paperwork. 

It's hard, no question about it and you will probably take a step or two backwards in the emotions but will bounce back and forward quickly.


----------



## Absurdist

MrPack said:


> Well I did more research today while at work and reached out to an old neighbor/friend who recently divorced his wife. He suggested a company called the divorce store (yes its a real thing). I called and they explained that for a fee they will prepare all the documents for the divorce, get it notarized and send it to the courts to file. I've decided that this option seems to most logical and easiest option I have. I plan to call them back tomorrow morning to schedule an appointment to start the process.
> 
> With that said I sent Mrspack an email right after I was done talking to them. In short I told her that the most realistic next step for us is divorce. I explained to her my plan to get it filed. I also asked her to agree that her debt is her debt, mine is mine, all assets have already been split and that we would split the fees of the divorce. I said that after I'm done with the appointment I'll let her know the next step (whether she needs to go there on her time to sign documents or what). I thought to myself I'll be sitting here for at least a full 24 hours before I get a response from her. I was wrong, she literally replied to my email within 15 minutes.
> 
> Her email was very short and to the point like mine. She agreed to the terms and also agreed to split the cost of the divorce. She also thanked me twice, once for taking the time to send her the heads up email and once for taking the time to research the best option to get the divorce process started. She then talked about how this is her last week of break from school and starting Monday she will not have any time outside of school and work. Basically her way of telling me she wont be of any help same ole $hit I've been hearing for years.
> 
> Anyway, I do feel a little weight lifted off my shoulders after sending that email and her responding to it so quickly but also I feel sad, pissed off and just flat out upset. I know 100% that our marriage is over and that it is certainly for the best but its still very hard.


She's thankful that you'll clean up after her this one last time.

I googled The Divorce Store. This will cost about $400.00, taxes and surcharges not included.

MrPack - do you want to be a cold blooded dude? Tell her not to worry about splitting the fees. This one is on the house...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Marc878

Do yourself a favor after the deal is done block her and family. Get on with your life.


----------



## TooNice

So glad you took some major steps today. I know contacting her was a really big move. You are really on the right track. It's still going to be tough at times, but before you know it, you're going to have all of this behind you. Good thoughts keep coming your way, friend!


----------



## Pluto2

Very proud of you Mr. Pack. Its hard when you have to clean up all the crap someone else created. But you are learning to say No and make some boundaries so your crap-cleaning days are drawing to a close.

And its friggin' freezing here tonight, so I'm thinking our next jaunt might be down to Vieques.


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## MrPack

Thanks everyone. I told myself that I would start this process as soon as the holidays are over, I'm done putting it off. I have an appoitment today at 4pm, sounds like I should be able to get all the paperwork together today and signed. She'll have to go in and sign the documents tomorrow and if that all goes smooth it should be filed to the courts as soon as tomorrow.


----------



## TooNice

MrPack said:


> Thanks everyone. I told myself that I would start this process as soon as the holidays are over, I'm done putting it off. I have an appoitment today at 4pm, sounds like I should be able to get all the paperwork together today and signed. She'll have to go in and sign the documents tomorrow and if that all goes smooth it should be filed to the courts as soon as tomorrow.


Go, Pack, Go! 

I mean, um... Go MrPack! ;-)


----------



## MrPack

I just got home from my appointment. Paperwork was drawn up, I signed and it was notarized. Mrspack assured me that she would be there tomorrow so they could get her signature. Once she signs they'll send it off to the courts. Now the 90 day wait to make it official.

I'm trying my best to move forward and start my new life. I know it'll take time but I think I'm ready. I've been looking at houses online and hope to be in a new place by next month. Theres a new gym that opened up close to where I plan to live, I'm going to head over there tomorrow and sign up. I even thought about getting a personal trainer, might help me become more motivated at first and if anything help me get a good routine going.

All in all I'm feeling okay tonight...

Thanks again to you all for your encouragement and advice.


----------



## honcho

MrPack said:


> I just got home from my appointment. Paperwork was drawn up, I signed and it was notarized. Mrspack assured me that she would be there tomorrow so they could get her signature. Once she signs they'll send it off to the courts. Now the 90 day wait to make it official.
> 
> I'm trying my best to move forward and start my new life. I know it'll take time but I think I'm ready. I've been looking at houses online and hope to be in a new place by next month. Theres a new gym that opened up close to where I plan to live, I'm going to head over there tomorrow and sign up. I even thought about getting a personal trainer, might help me become more motivated at first and if anything help me get a good routine going.
> 
> All in all I'm feeling okay tonight...
> 
> Thanks again to you all for your encouragement and advice.


Don't be surprised if you feel down once she signs it. Seeing the signature and making it "real" will play with your emotions a little, it just does.


----------



## ReturntoZero

MrPack said:


> Well I did more research today while at work and reached out to an old neighbor/friend who recently divorced his wife. He suggested a company called the divorce store (yes its a real thing). I called and they explained that for a fee they will prepare all the documents for the divorce, get it notarized and send it to the courts to file. I've decided that this option seems to most logical and easiest option I have. I plan to call them back tomorrow morning to schedule an appointment to start the process.
> 
> With that said I sent Mrspack an email right after I was done talking to them. In short I told her that the most realistic next step for us is divorce. I explained to her my plan to get it filed. I also asked her to agree that her debt is her debt, mine is mine, all assets have already been split and that we would split the fees of the divorce. I said that after I'm done with the appointment I'll let her know the next step (whether she needs to go there on her time to sign documents or what). I thought to myself I'll be sitting here for at least a full 24 hours before I get a response from her. I was wrong, she literally replied to my email within 15 minutes.
> 
> Her email was very short and to the point like mine. She agreed to the terms and also agreed to split the cost of the divorce. She also thanked me twice, once for taking the time to send her the heads up email and once for taking the time to research the best option to get the divorce process started. She then talked about how this is her last week of break from school and starting Monday she will not have any time outside of school and work. Basically her way of telling me she wont be of any help same ole $hit I've been hearing for years.
> 
> Anyway, I do feel a little weight lifted off my shoulders after sending that email and her responding to it so quickly but also I feel sad, pissed off and just flat out upset. I know 100% that our marriage is over and that it is certainly for the best but its still very hard.


Part of the script for the disordered spouse is that they're simply the busiest of all people.

Their time is worth more than anyone else's. It's one way they justify their incredibly rude and inconsiderate behavior as a spouse.


----------



## MrPack

ReturntoZero said:


> Part of the script for the disordered spouse is that they're simply the busiest of all people.
> 
> Their time is worth more than anyone else's. It's one way they justify their incredibly rude and inconsiderate behavior as a spouse.


This ^^^...she's been doing that for years.


----------



## TooNice

MrPack said:


> This ^^^...she's been doing that for years.


This is so true. My ex used to call and ask me to do things for him all the time-drop something off that he forgot, whatever. He never had time to reciprocate when I needed anything. It was so frustrating then, but it sure is nice to no longer be in that situation!


----------



## Pluto2

Man oh man this is true.
I will say one of the biggest personal adjustments my ex had to make was that I no longer took care of life for him. He just expected I would take care of all the little details of being an adult-because I always had. He had a horrible time when he left. He couldn't keep up with insurance, taxes, rent, his health. No, I would not fill out the change of address form-for him. I did mark his mail "not at this address" and put in back in the box. I mean you can take care of that on-line. So, I was called a few choice names, reminded him I was not a personal assistant, and informed him that he could not speak to me that way. 
And now, its not my problem.


----------



## LongWalk

In a few months time you'll realize that her departure was a blessing.


----------



## helolover

LongWalk said:


> In a few months time you'll realize that her departure was a blessing.


This times 100. Remember this, Pack.


----------



## MrPack

I know I've touched on this before but Mrspack has a cousin that I was pretty close with over the years. Well her cousin, her husband and their 3 year old daughter just moved back from out of state. They've been asking me for a while to come over for dinner. She was really the only person out of Mrspack's family that from the get go told me she didn't want to get involved and didn't want to know anything about our issues but still wants to maintain a friendship. When her daughter was born they named Mrspack and I the godparents. With all that said I made plans to have dinner with them at their house this Friday. 

What do you all think about that? It's not like I'm wanting a close relationship with them but it would be nice to see them and catch up. I will not say anything about Mrspack and I will not ask about her. This is about my relationship/friendship with them.


----------



## turnera

By all means, do it.


----------



## Absurdist

MrPack - why would you not do this? You are a Godparent. I deem that as a wonderful privilege... and a unique responsibility.

Enjoy the cousin, her husband and your Godchild. STBXMrsPack has nothing to do with this kind of a relationship.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## farsidejunky

MrPack said:


> I know I've touched on this before but Mrspack has a cousin that I was pretty close with over the years. Well her cousin, her husband and their 3 year old daughter just moved back from out of state. They've been asking me for a while to come over for dinner. She was really the only person out of Mrspack's family that from the get go told me she didn't want to get involved and didn't want to know anything about our issues but still wants to maintain a friendship. When her daughter was born they named Mrspack and I the godparents. With all that said I made plans to have dinner with them at their house this Friday.
> 
> What do you all think about that? It's not like I'm wanting a close relationship with them but it would be nice to see them and catch up. I will not say anything about Mrspack and I will not ask about her. This is about my relationship/friendship with them.


I think it is fine, brother.

No pining or whining when she asks what happened, and do not initiate the dialogue about it. She will approach it eventually. State it matter of fact, no emotion.

And enjoy spending time with your god child.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## TooNice

They chose you to play an important role in their child's life. They want to maintain that, so I see nothing wrong with getting together with them. It shows in your posts that you have no desire to bad mouth STBXMrsPack. So go. Enjoy your time with them!


----------



## ReturntoZero

MrPack said:


> I know I've touched on this before but Mrspack has a cousin that I was pretty close with over the years. Well her cousin, her husband and their 3 year old daughter just moved back from out of state. They've been asking me for a while to come over for dinner. She was really the only person out of Mrspack's family that from the get go told me she didn't want to get involved and didn't want to know anything about our issues but still wants to maintain a friendship. When her daughter was born they named Mrspack and I the godparents. With all that said I made plans to have dinner with them at their house this Friday.
> 
> What do you all think about that? It's not like I'm wanting a close relationship with them but it would be nice to see them and catch up. I will not say anything about Mrspack and I will not ask about her. This is about my relationship/friendship with them.


Just be prepared for Mrs. Pack to go nuts if she finds out.


----------



## Pluto2

Mr. Pack, my oldest sister married her HS sweetheart, a really great guy. He had three younger sisters I knew from school, so when my sister got married, it felt like they were all family. My BIL's sister that is closest in age to me married an equally great guy. We like the same music, he has a wicked sense of humor and he's a great father. Well, the sister and her great guy husband got a divorce (the sister left mr. great guy for a Hell's Angel and went a bit wacky). The thing is I have always stayed close with Mr. Great Guy. and their son. He has remarried a very nice woman, their son is now a father. We are all friends and feel like family. I haven't spoken to the sister in a decade. When my sister's daughter got married a few years ago, Mr. Great Guy and his new wife came to the wedding. (wacky sister did not).

Take good family where you find it, they are a gift.


----------



## MrPack

ReturntoZero said:


> Just be prepared for Mrs. Pack to go nuts if she finds out.


You know I thougt about this. Two things...

1. If I was a betting man I would say STBXMrspack will act like it doesnt bother her but I'm sure it does.

2. I dont give two $hits what she thinks anymore, not my fault that her family still wants me in their life.


----------



## MrPack

STBXMrspack signed the papers Tuesday and also transfered her half of the divorce cost into my account yesterday. I really thought she would end up not paying for half of it and I was prepared to just let it go, I dont want her money. However she did pay for half and I'm good with that too.


----------



## farsidejunky

Perfect. Things are lining up.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Absurdist

MrPack said:


> STBXMrspack signed the papers Tuesday and also transfered her half of the divorce cost into my account yesterday. I really thought she would end up not paying for half of it and I was prepared to just let it go, I dont want her money. However she did pay for half and I'm good with that too.


Envision a man in handcuffs standing in front of a locked gate. There is nothing but mist and fog everywhere.

Suddenly the cuffs fall off his wrists. The locks on the gate fall to the ground. The gate opens and the mist clears.

The man is atop a mountain with a beautiful valley below. The sun shines. Birds sing. Flowers bloom.

That's the prologue MrPack.

In Chapter One I'll describe the vestal virgins...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

Absurdist said:


> Envision a man in handcuffs standing in front of a locked gate. There is nothing but mist and fog everywhere.
> 
> Suddenly the cuffs fall off his wrists. The locks on the gate fall to the ground. The gate opens and the mist clears.
> 
> The man is atop a mountain with a beautiful valley below. The sun shines. Birds sing. Flowers bloom.
> 
> That's the prologue MrPack.
> 
> In Chapter One I'll describe the vestal virgins...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You forget the beach on the valley filled with hot babes in bikinis that would never do this to you, Pack.

There are far more good women in this world than bad. When you're ready, give them a chance.


----------



## honcho

MrPack said:


> STBXMrspack signed the papers Tuesday and also transfered her half of the divorce cost into my account yesterday. I really thought she would end up not paying for half of it and I was prepared to just let it go, I dont want her money. However she did pay for half and I'm good with that too.


She is getting her "easy out". No confrontations, no big drama. She can tell the world the endlessly vague, we just drifted apart or similar and you save yourself a great deal of cash in legal fees.


----------



## MrPack

Although it was nice to see them last night, especially my god daughter, I don't think I'll be doing that again anytime soon. Unfortunately STBXMrspack came up more often than I wanted in conversation. They never tried to dig into specifics about why we are getting a divorce but just overall stories when I would ask how they have been , how were the holidays. They are still really close with STBXMrspack so they spend a lot of time with her. Naturally a lot of what they've been up to lately had to do with her. 

I don't want to say it made me take steps backwards but I didn't come home or wake up this morning feeling too good about everything. It is what it is, today is a new day.

Turns out her cousin had to go with her to sign the papers last week, apparently STBXMrspack was in tears the whole time. STuff like that is something I don't need to hear or care to know about anymore.


----------



## Marc878

Blood is thicker than water. 

For your sake I wouldn't go back there again.

Move on with your life.


----------



## MrPack

Marc878 said:


> Blood is thicker than water.
> 
> For your sake I wouldn't go back there again.
> 
> Move on with your life.


Yea, as much as I wanted things to be different...that's her family not mine. I found myself analyzing every conversation we had last night making sure I didn't say anything that I didn't want to get back to STVXMrspack, that's not healthy. Maybe in a year or longer things will be different but it seems like everything is still too fresh for everyone. Oh well, I gave it a shot.


----------



## ReturntoZero

MrPack said:


> Yea, as much as I wanted things to be different...that's her family not mine. I found myself analyzing every conversation we had last night making sure I didn't say anything that I didn't want to get back to STVXMrspack, that's not healthy. Maybe in a year or longer things will be different but it seems like everything is still too fresh for everyone. Oh well, I gave it a shot.


I would have advised you not to go for that very reason.

Chalk it up as a lesson learned.

When people are in your situation, the lessons come at warp speed.


----------



## ReturntoZero

marduk said:


> You forget the beach on the valley filled with hot babes in bikinis that would never do this to you, Pack.
> 
> There are far more good women in this world than bad. When you're ready, give them a chance.


Ah, but there's the rub.

If he doesn't work on himself, he'll be right back in the soup.


----------



## Vulcan2013

There's nothing wrong with telling the cousin you don't want to discuss your ex to facilitate your healing. You might mention this was your wife's choice, not yours.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Yep. The next thing you do, when the God Child gets older, is take him to lunch, movies or the park. You minimize adult contact until they understand you do not want to talk about the ex. Also, remember you do not have to keep in touch with their family. It doesn't make you a bad person.


----------



## Absurdist

MrPack said:


> Although it was nice to see them last night, especially my god daughter, I don't think I'll be doing that again anytime soon. Unfortunately STBXMrspack came up more often than I wanted in conversation. They never tried to dig into specifics about why we are getting a divorce but just overall stories when I would ask how they have been , how were the holidays. They are still really close with STBXMrspack so they spend a lot of time with her. Naturally a lot of what they've been up to lately had to do with her.
> 
> I don't want to say it made me take steps backwards but I didn't come home or wake up this morning feeling too good about everything. It is what it is, today is a new day.
> 
> Turns out her cousin had to go with her to sign the papers last week, apparently STBXMrspack was in tears the whole time. STuff like that is something I don't need to hear or care to know about anymore.


To a certain degree I'm sorry I told you to nurture the relationship with your Godchild. I guess none of us stopped to think that the cousin would be a stalking horse for STBXMrsPack. Perhaps she wasn't and this was normal curiosity and human nature.

MrPack would you feel worse if the cousin told you she was unemotional? Or smiled? Or joked? Or laughed?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MrPack

Absurdist said:


> To a certain degree I'm sorry I told you to nurture the relationship with your Godchild. I guess none of us stopped to think that the cousin would be a stalking horse for STBXMrsPack. Perhaps she wasn't and this was normal curiosity and human nature.
> 
> MrPack would you feel worse if the cousin told you she was unemotional? Or smiled? Or joked? Or laughed?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think it was more curiosity than anything, nonetheless it is what it is. It could have been worse. At least now I know that it's too early to try and keep relationships with them.

I think I would have felt worse had she told me Mrspack smiled, joked or laughed about it. But either way I don't want to know things like that anymore, hence the reason I shouldn't be hanging out with her family for now. Maybe sometime in the future but not yet. 

And please don't be sorry for giving me your opinion on whether I should hang out with them or not. It was pretty up in the air in regards to which direction the conversations were going to go.


----------



## MrPack

GO PACK GO!!!...Big game this afternoon...I'm nervous!


----------



## farsidejunky

MrPack said:


> GO PACK GO!!!...Big game this afternoon...I'm nervous!


You should be. They could improve their offensive tackles by recruiting from your local high school...

Kerrigan is primed for a big day unless they can scheme it.





Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Absurdist

MrPack said:


> GO PACK GO!!!...Big game this afternoon...I'm nervous!


Sorry I have to do this....

No problems with....

.
.
.
.

Cousins.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Marc878

Packers win!!!!!!!!!!

Yes


----------



## MrPack

Hope everyone is having a good week so far. Nothing new with my saga right now. I found a gym routine that I start next Monday...I've been slacking on the exercise recently but joined a new gym and found a great workout plan to get me back into a regular routine again. 

I am still having issues really taking the steps to start dating. I dont know if its just nervousness or lack of self confidence seeing as how I havent been in the dating scene for more than 11 years or what. My friends are trying to get me to sign up for a couple dating apps...not sure what to think about those but if anything it'll get me some practice and remind me what it's like to actually go on a date. 

Anyway I hope all is well with you guys.


----------



## honcho

MrPack said:


> Hope everyone is having a good week so far. Nothing new with my saga right now. I found a gym routine that I start next Monday...I've been slacking on the exercise recently but joined a new gym and found a great workout plan to get me back into a regular routine again.
> 
> I am still having issues really taking the steps to start dating. I dont know if its just nervousness or lack of self confidence seeing as how I havent been in the dating scene for more than 11 years or what. My friends are trying to get me to sign up for a couple dating apps...not sure what to think about those but if anything it'll get me some practice and remind me what it's like to actually go on a date.
> 
> Anyway I hope all is well with you guys.


Don't feel rushed to start dating. Take a little time, get yourself back in shape, the confidence will come back with some more time and perspective on what's happened over the last few months.


----------



## Absurdist

MrPack said:


> Hope everyone is having a good week so far. Nothing new with my saga right now. I found a gym routine that I start next Monday...I've been slacking on the exercise recently but joined a new gym and found a great workout plan to get me back into a regular routine again.
> 
> I am still having issues really taking the steps to start dating. I dont know if its just nervousness or lack of self confidence seeing as how I havent been in the dating scene for more than 11 years or what. My friends are trying to get me to sign up for a couple dating apps...not sure what to think about those but if anything it'll get me some practice and remind me what it's like to actually go on a date.
> 
> Anyway I hope all is well with you guys.


MrPack- please understand that I'm an old coot, but an old coot who's been a mentor/father figure for many young guys. The best dates after a divorce/break up occured when the guy met the gal by... volunteering for a great cause... met through friends... or met through work. I'm not pooping on dating services by any means... just giving you my experience with a host of young guys.

Keeping working out MrPack. Get buff. Maybe go to a yoga class. Son 2 went to yoga just to meet chicks. Turned out he was the only guy in the class. He did an "aw shucks", can you show me how to do this? Son 2 is a nerd (but a confident, clever nerd). He had girls fawning all over him even though he looks like Rivers Cuomo.

Now MrPack - if Too Nice or Pluto show up at your door... you drop everything and take them to Maui :wink2:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

I was just coming here to tell you to avoid the dating sites. That's like drinking water with fake tea powder vs steeping your own tea. It's doable, but you're left with a phony taste in your mouth (IMO).

Spend time volunteering. It makes you feel good, you accomplish something, you do something good for the world, and you also meet like-minded great people, women included, with whom you might find things in common. Best to meet a girl as a friend first, because she's not putting on a fake front. 

Just go out and do things. meetup.com, startup events, volunteer at children's festivals or chili cookoffs, etc....take a class and meet people. Join a sports team and meet people. Stuff like that. You'll enjoy yourself AND have fun.


----------



## ReturntoZero

MrPack said:


> Hope everyone is having a good week so far. Nothing new with my saga right now. I found a gym routine that I start next Monday...I've been slacking on the exercise recently but joined a new gym and found a great workout plan to get me back into a regular routine again.
> 
> I am still having issues really taking the steps to start dating. I dont know if its just nervousness or lack of self confidence seeing as how I havent been in the dating scene for more than 11 years or what. My friends are trying to get me to sign up for a couple dating apps...not sure what to think about those but if anything it'll get me some practice and remind me what it's like to actually go on a date.
> 
> Anyway I hope all is well with you guys.


Good week? Could have sworn I saw a coin that didn't flip.


----------



## LongWalk

Take a dancing class but don't make dating the women there a goal. Concentrate on gaining the skill. Practice the social part.


----------



## MrPack

Absurdist said:


> MrPack- please understand that I'm an old coot, but an old coot who's been a mentor/father figure for many young guys. The best dates after a divorce/break up occured when the guy met the gal by... volunteering for a great cause... met through friends... or met through work. I'm not pooping on dating services by any means... just giving you my experience with a host of young guys.
> 
> Keeping working out MrPack. Get buff. Maybe go to a yoga class. Son 2 went to yoga just to meet chicks. Turned out he was the only guy in the class. He did an "aw shucks", can you show me how to do this? Son 2 is a nerd (but a confident, clever nerd). He had girls fawning all over him even though he looks like Rivers Cuomo.
> 
> Now MrPack - if Too Nice or Pluto show up at your door... you drop everything and take them to Maui :wink2:
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If they show up at my door I'll take them wherever they want to go! :grin2:


----------



## MrPack

ReturntoZero said:


> Good week? Could have sworn I saw a coin that didn't flip.


hahaha yea Saturday evening was a rough one. Overall was a great game but still in "mourning" that my Packers couldnt pull it off. As for the coin toss, no the first attempted the coin didnt flip at all. Rodgers thought he should have been abel to change is decision before the next toss but i guess not.


----------



## Marc878

They did better than I thought but it still sucked


----------



## TooNice

MrPack said:


> Hope everyone is having a good week so far. Nothing new with my saga right now. I found a gym routine that I start next Monday...I've been slacking on the exercise recently but joined a new gym and found a great workout plan to get me back into a regular routine again.
> 
> I am still having issues really taking the steps to start dating. I dont know if its just nervousness or lack of self confidence seeing as how I havent been in the dating scene for more than 11 years or what. My friends are trying to get me to sign up for a couple dating apps...not sure what to think about those but if anything it'll get me some practice and remind me what it's like to actually go on a date.
> 
> Anyway I hope all is well with you guys.


Glad to see you post - I've been wondering how you are doing. A workout routine is a fantastic idea. Do things to focus on yourself, and other things will fall into place; whether you choose to online date or not. My opinion about that topic is different than it would have been even six months ago. You read my most recent post, so I know you know my perspective. The bottom line is that you have to do what feels right for you, regardless of what your friends have to say. Having deleted my own OLD profiles recently, I just joined a gym and hired a trainer myself. Feels good to have something to put my time an energy into!



MrPack said:


> If they show up at my door I'll take them wherever they want to go! :grin2:


Oh boy. My needs are simple. Warm. It just needs to be warm. 

(It's soooooo cold here!) 



Marc878 said:


> They did better than I thought but it still sucked


Ouch. It still stings. It was a good game, but painful for so many reasons.


----------



## MrPack

Having a frustrating week. Been looking at rental houses and it's been a painful experience. I am desperate to get out of my parents house but everytime I find a place that I like it's either taken by the time I see it or I go look at it and it looks nowhere near as nice as the photos online. Some of you will probably tell me to just buy another house again but to be honest my credit needs some work. I'm not pointing the finger but my credit is a mess due to all the stupid decisions I made while trying to support my STBXW all these years so she could go to school fulltime for 10+ years. I've really been dealing with alot of anger this week between not finding a rental house and my credit situation. Yes I could have made better decisions in the past but I was just trying to help my little "family" survive for all those years. Not a good week...


----------



## farsidejunky

MrPack said:


> Having a frustrating week. Been looking at rental houses and it's been a painful experience. I am desperate to get out of my parents house but everytime I find a place that I like it's either taken by the time I see it or I go look at it and it looks nowhere near as nice as the photos online. Some of you will probably tell me to just buy another house again but to be honest my credit needs some work. I'm not pointing the finger but my credit is a mess due to all the stupid decisions I made while trying to support my STBXW all these years so she could go to school fulltime for 10+ years. I've really been dealing with alot of anger this week between not finding a rental house and my credit situation. Yes I could have made better decisions in the past but I was just trying to help my little "family" survive for all those years. Not a good week...


This is a healthy feeling. Remember it well, for when you find yourself in similar circumstances, your memory of it should help you make the right decision. 

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## TooNice

MrPack said:


> Having a frustrating week. Been looking at rental houses and it's been a painful experience. I am desperate to get out of my parents house but everytime I find a place that I like it's either taken by the time I see it or I go look at it and it looks nowhere near as nice as the photos online. Some of you will probably tell me to just buy another house again but to be honest my credit needs some work. I'm not pointing the finger but my credit is a mess due to all the stupid decisions I made while trying to support my STBXW all these years so she could go to school fulltime for 10+ years. I've really been dealing with alot of anger this week between not finding a rental house and my credit situation. Yes I could have made better decisions in the past but I was just trying to help my little "family" survive for all those years. Not a good week...


I won't be one to suggest you buy right away. I was really surprised at the number of people who thought I would buy after my divorce. There is enough turmoil coming out of the gate. Why on earth would I add the huge responsibility of being a single home owner? I am perfectly content to have someone else be responsible for lawn work, furnaces and water heaters!

I can relate to your search frustrations. It got a little discouraging looking at crappy apartments in my college town. (I'm too old to go outside to do my laundry, thankyouverymuch...) I am a person with a strong belief in fate, especially when it comes to the jobs we have, the people in our lives, and the places we live. That said, I ultimately found the best place I could have hoped for. My landlord is awesome and takes pride in his property, and my neighbors below me have become dear friends. 

I suggest that you work to shake off that anger (did you ever start seeing that therapist, btw?). Take a deep breath and a new approach. Your place is out there; it's just not time for you to find it yet. And when you walk in, you'll know it's the one. Don't be in such a hurry to move that you settle-you deserve a place that makes you feel good about starting over in!

I'm sorry you are having a rough week, friend. Now turn it around. :smile2:


----------



## MrPack

TooNice said:


> I won't be one to suggest you buy right away. I was really surprised at the number of people who thought I would buy after my divorce. There is enough turmoil coming out of the gate. Why on earth would I add the huge responsibility of being a single home owner? I am perfectly content to have someone else be responsible for lawn work, furnaces and water heaters!
> 
> I can relate to your search frustrations. It got a little discouraging looking at crappy apartments in my college town. (I'm too old to go outside to do my laundry, thankyouverymuch...) I am a person with a strong belief in fate, especially when it comes to the jobs we have, the people in our lives, and the places we live. That said, I ultimately found the best place I could have hoped for. My landlord is awesome and takes pride in his property, and my neighbors below me have become dear friends.
> 
> I suggest that you work to shake off that anger (did you ever start seeing that therapist, btw?). Take a deep breath and a new approach. Your place is out there; it's just not time for you to find it yet. And when you walk in, you'll know it's the one. Don't be in such a hurry to move that you settle-you deserve a place that makes you feel good about starting over in!
> 
> I'm sorry you are having a rough week, friend. Now turn it around. :smile2:


Thank you. And on the therapist topic... I havent found one yet. I started looking into that but things at work got hectic and I just kept pushing back on my list. It's at the top again. I need to get in touch with my EAP again and get some referalls. 

I totally understand what you mean about not rushing into finding a place. I think I'm just so fixated on getting out of my parents house that I'm not thinking clearly. The last thing I want is to get my own place and be unhappy stuck in a lease.


----------



## turnera

I'm thinking highrise condo, complete with indoor pool, wifi, security, gym...


----------



## honcho

MrPack said:


> Thank you. And on the therapist topic... I havent found one yet. I started looking into that but things at work got hectic and I just kept pushing back on my list. It's at the top again. I need to get in touch with my EAP again and get some referalls.
> 
> I totally understand what you mean about not rushing into finding a place. I think I'm just so fixated on getting out of my parents house that I'm not thinking clearly. The last thing I want is to get my own place and be unhappy stuck in a lease.


Are your parents giving you a curfew? If your mom cooks dinner for you and does your laundry never leave and yes I'm poking some fun at you. 

The place I'm in is far from ideal but it works for now. When I first started searching for a place after crazy girl decided she wanted the house looking back I was too picky and looked at way too many places. Whatever you decide on your most likely only going to be in it for a year, maybe two. Think about function more than finding a "great place". It's only going to be short term. 

I was able to work a land contract with a couple year to year options. I didn't have a down payment and it's relatively simple to get out of the deal if I choose to. The longer I'm here the more I realize this home is going to be a temp situation. I love the land and acreage but the house just isn't what I want.


----------



## Pluto2

I sympathize with your credit issues. I did the same with my ex. I made choices to make his life easier believing at the time, we were a team and there would be help. Turns out, not so much. And I'm still stuck financing his irresponsibility. Live and learn Mr. P.

I've almost dug out from snowzilla (I'm not kidding, we got 2 1/2 feet and I have a really long driveway and no snow blower). I'm gearing up for our trip. I"ll swing by and grab TooNice and off we go!


----------



## MrPack

honcho said:


> Are your parents giving you a curfew? If your mom cooks dinner for you and does your laundry never leave and yes I'm poking some fun at you.
> 
> The place I'm in is far from ideal but it works for now. When I first started searching for a place after crazy girl decided she wanted the house looking back I was too picky and looked at way too many places. Whatever you decide on your most likely only going to be in it for a year, maybe two. Think about function more than finding a "great place". It's only going to be short term.
> 
> I was able to work a land contract with a couple year to year options. I didn't have a down payment and it's relatively simple to get out of the deal if I choose to. The longer I'm here the more I realize this home is going to be a temp situation. I love the land and acreage but the house just isn't what I want.


Haha, I do not have a curfew, my mom cooks sometimes but I tend to do my own thing for meals since they dont eat very healthy and the one time my mom changed the load over for me while I was gone she shrunk my favorite Packers shirt!!

Anyway, I actually put an application in last night for a house. It's a small house with a nice backyard. Just felt comfortable when I walked in, it's very close to friends. We'll see if it works, I do know that there were numerous applicants. If this one doesnt work I'll keep looking but not for much longer.


----------



## MrPack

Pluto2 said:


> I sympathize with your credit issues. I did the same with my ex. I made choices to make his life easier believing at the time, we were a team and there would be help. Turns out, not so much. And I'm still stuck financing his irresponsibility. Live and learn Mr. P.
> 
> I've almost dug out from snowzilla (I'm not kidding, we got 2 1/2 feet and I have a really long driveway and no snow blower). I'm gearing up for our trip. I"ll swing by and grab TooNice and off we go!


I feel for you...it's supposed to be a whopping 75 degrees later today where I'm at!! :grin2:


----------



## turnera

Write the homeowner a letter. That works more often then you'd think.


----------



## LongWalk

Frustrating to be in your current position. But it is amazing to read your analysis of why your credit is not what it could have been. STBXW was parasitically pushing you to spend money to make her happy. But her unhappiness cannot easily be treated. Your income ran down the drain. Allowing her to do this actually lowered your attractiveness to her.

Now you are free. You will not repeat this pattern on your next relationsip.


----------



## strugglingwifeandmom

This is sound advice and I'm going to take it for myself. Good luck and if it's meant to be you'll find your way back to each other.


----------



## MrPack

I got the house!! He had 5 other applications in plus 2 other people that wanted to turn in applications. He called me late friday said he wasnt comfortable with what he found during the credit check but wanted to work with me anyway. I did throw some words in my application sort of explaining my current situation and how I'm on the road to starting my new life. I think he took that into consideration when choosing me. Anyway I signed the lease Saturday morning and gave him the deposit. I move in March 1st. I'm pretty excited. 

I'm happy and proud knowing that I stuck to my plan and didnt stay in my parents house for too long. It was okay for the past couple months but the growth I need wasnt going to happen while living with them. My new journey seems to be slowly falling into place.


----------



## TooNice

MrPack said:


> I got the house!! He had 5 other applications in plus 2 other people that wanted to turn in applications. He called me late friday said he wasnt comfortable with what he found during the credit check but wanted to work with me anyway. I did throw some words in my application sort of explaining my current situation and how I'm on the road to starting my new life. I think he took that into consideration when choosing me. Anyway I signed the lease Saturday morning and gave him the deposit. I move in March 1st. I'm pretty excited.
> 
> I'm happy and proud knowing that I stuck to my plan and didnt stay in my parents house for too long. It was okay for the past couple months but the growth I need wasnt going to happen while living with them. My new journey seems to be slowly falling into place.


So very happy for you, MrPack!! That's wonderful news!

:yay:


----------



## farsidejunky

House party?

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Absurdist

MrPack said:


> I got the house!! He had 5 other applications in plus 2 other people that wanted to turn in applications. He called me late friday said he wasnt comfortable with what he found during the credit check but wanted to work with me anyway. I did throw some words in my application sort of explaining my current situation and how I'm on the road to starting my new life. I think he took that into consideration when choosing me. Anyway I signed the lease Saturday morning and gave him the deposit. I move in March 1st. I'm pretty excited.
> 
> I'm happy and proud knowing that I stuck to my plan and didnt stay in my parents house for too long. It was okay for the past couple months but the growth I need wasnt going to happen while living with them. My new journey seems to be slowly falling into place.


Did you ask the new landlord if you could paint one of the rooms green and gold? 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Absurdist

farsidejunky said:


> House party?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


 No kiddin'

Too Nice and Pluto bring the chick food.

Farside brings the Rotel

I bring the IPA.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TooNice

Absurdist said:


> No kiddin'
> 
> Too Nice and Pluto bring the chick food.
> 
> Farside brings the Rotel
> 
> I bring the IPA.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm a very good cook. And my salsa will rock your world.

I can't do IPA, though. That stuff makes my face scrunch up. Spotted Cow for me. 

Or bourbon. ;-)


----------



## Pluto2

Not to worry, TooNice, I've got some lovely Petit Verdot to bring with the "chick food" (as if)

So happy Mr. P!


----------



## Marc878

I want my room done in packer green. I want a kegerator for Stela Artois. Fully stocked bar, wide screen of course, maid service. I'll think about the rest and get back to you.


----------



## honcho

farsidejunky said:


> House party?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


I haven't been to a good weekend housewrecker bash in a long time. Hope he didn't put down a big security deposit :grin2:


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## Archangel2

Congrats, MrPack!


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## farsidejunky

Absurdist said:


> No kiddin'
> 
> Too Nice and Pluto bring the chick food.
> 
> Farside brings the Rotel
> 
> I bring the IPA.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Dafuq is rotel? I make a killer terriyaki London broil.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Vulcan2013

farsidejunky said:


> Dafuq is rotel? I make a killer terriyaki London broil.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Heathen! Rotel is diced tomatoes with green chilies. Melt a whole velveta in the slow cooker mix in the Rotel, and you have a spicy cheese dip. 

But the London broil sounds awesome too.


----------



## turnera

Vulcan2013 said:


> Heathen! Rotel is diced tomatoes with green chilies. Melt a whole velveta in the slow cooker mix in the Rotel, and you have a spicy cheese dip.


I always add diced onions to mine. Yum!


----------



## giddiot

turnera said:


> I always add diced onions to mine. Yum!



Me too


----------



## farsidejunky

Vulcan2013 said:


> Heathen! Rotel is diced tomatoes with green chilies. Melt a whole velveta in the slow cooker mix in the Rotel, and you have a spicy cheese dip.
> 
> But the London broil sounds awesome too.


I see. Heathen about sums it up!

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## MrPack

TooNice said:


> I'm a very good cook. And my salsa will rock your world.
> 
> I can't do IPA, though. That stuff makes my face scrunch up. Spotted Cow for me.
> 
> Or bourbon. ;-)


Spotted Cow!!!! That is my absolute favorite beer...suckks that they dont distribute to where I live....


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## MrPack

Thanks everyone! I'll keep you all posted on the big house party!!! hahaha

And for the record I love Rotel in my queso....


----------



## Vulcan2013

turnera said:


> I always add diced onions to mine. Yum!


Well, I didnt' want to explain what "onions" are.:grin2:


----------



## farsidejunky

Vulcan2013 said:


> Well, I didnt' want to explain what "onions" are.:grin2:


Look here, futtbucker...



Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## MrPack

Hope everyone is doing well. I've been battling the flu bug for the last couple days. Being stuck inside the house (my parents house) sick for two straight days has sucked to say the least. Naturally between all the crappy daytime television I've been doing a lot of thinking. I'm suppose to go sign the final/last of the divorce docs later this week. It's brought up some emotion and feelings I haven't had in a while. Like missing my wife or at least who she used to be and what our life used to be when things were good. I'm guessing this is normal and has to do with the fact that my mind hasn't been occupied the last coupe days. It just feels weird that this will all be over soon legally and maybe the reality of that life going away for good is finally staring at me in the face.


----------



## unbe

MrPack said:


> Hope everyone is doing well. I've been battling the flu bug for the last couple days. Being stuck inside the house (my parents house) sick for two straight days has sucked to say the least. Naturally between all the crappy daytime television I've been doing a lot of thinking. I'm suppose to go sign the final/last of the divorce docs later this week. It's brought up some emotion and feelings I haven't had in a while. Like missing my wife or at least who she used to be and what our life used to be when things were good. I'm guessing this is normal and has to do with the fact that my mind hasn't been occupied the last coupe days. It just feels weird that this will all be over soon legally and maybe the reality of that life going away for good is finally staring at me in the face.


Indeed it is the end...But also the beginning of your rebirth!

Get there struttin!


----------



## turnera

Marrying someone, expecting her to be the one who takes care of you when you're sick, is part of the allure of marriage. It's a tough thing to let go of.


----------



## honcho

MrPack said:


> Hope everyone is doing well. I've been battling the flu bug for the last couple days. Being stuck inside the house (my parents house) sick for two straight days has sucked to say the least. Naturally between all the crappy daytime television I've been doing a lot of thinking. I'm suppose to go sign the final/last of the divorce docs later this week. It's brought up some emotion and feelings I haven't had in a while. Like missing my wife or at least who she used to be and what our life used to be when things were good. I'm guessing this is normal and has to do with the fact that my mind hasn't been occupied the last coupe days. It just feels weird that this will all be over soon legally and maybe the reality of that life going away for good is finally staring at me in the face.


The feelings are normal. When I received the final docs in the mail a month ago it set me back in many ways. I still haven't read the entire paperwork, part is the "finality" of it all.


----------



## Pluto2

MrPack said:


> Hope everyone is doing well. I've been battling the flu bug for the last couple days. Being stuck inside the house (my parents house) sick for two straight days has sucked to say the least. Naturally between all the crappy daytime television I've been doing a lot of thinking. I'm suppose to go sign the final/last of the divorce docs later this week. It's brought up some emotion and feelings I haven't had in a while. Like missing my wife or at least who she used to be and what our life used to be when things were good. I'm guessing this is normal and has to do with the fact that my mind hasn't been occupied the last coupe days. It just feels weird that this will all be over soon legally and maybe the reality of that life going away for good is finally staring at me in the face.


This is completely normal, and frankly I'd be worried if you didn't reflect on the end of a marriage. Its a big deal. Its one of the lifetime stress markers. Its healthy to contemplate the relationship and what is going to shift in your world. Remember that all the shifting will not be bad, even if it is a bit uncomfortable at first.


----------



## Absurdist

MrPack said:


> Hope everyone is doing well. I've been battling the flu bug for the last couple days. Being stuck inside the house (my parents house) sick for two straight days has sucked to say the least. Naturally between all the crappy daytime television I've been doing a lot of thinking. I'm suppose to go sign the final/last of the divorce docs later this week. It's brought up some emotion and feelings I haven't had in a while. Like missing my wife or at least who she used to be and what our life used to be when things were good. I'm guessing this is normal and has to do with the fact that my mind hasn't been occupied the last coupe days. It just feels weird that this will all be over soon legally and maybe the reality of that life going away for good is finally staring at me in the face.


MrPack - I have been married to the most beautiful and marvelous woman for over 40 years now.... Yet I think back to my first college girlfriend who broke up with me for someone else. That still stings a bit after nearly 45 years.

You have a disease MrPack. It's called being human. These emotions will ebb and flow but ultimately you will heal and go on.


----------



## TooNice

How are you doing today, MrPack?


----------



## MrPack

TooNice said:


> How are you doing today, MrPack?


Sorry it took me a while to get back to you. I'm doing okay, I went to happy hour with some buddies last night, came home and was in bed by 10pm lol. Today is a little tough seeing as how most of my friends are busy doing valentines day stuff with their significant others but I'll be okay. 

Still haven't decided what I'm going to do with myself today. I don't really feel like sitting around the house all day and night but my motivation is lacking.

How are you doing??


----------



## honcho

MrPack said:


> Sorry it took me a while to get back to you. I'm doing okay, I went to happy hour with some buddies last night, came home and was in bed by 10pm lol. Today is a little tough seeing as how most of my friends are busy doing valentines day stuff with their significant others but I'll be okay.
> 
> Still haven't decided what I'm going to do with myself today. I don't really feel like sitting around the house all day and night but my motivation is lacking.
> 
> How are you doing??


Like all these days the first one is the hard one to get thru. I've never been big on valentine's day anyway, now I don't want anything to do with it. Back in the beginning of my disaster it was valentine's day I knew something was going on with her. 

Motivation lacking is contagious I've been stuck inside most of the day trying to work on a tax project for a client but I find myself parked on the couch watching some walking dead marathon more than running a calculator.


----------



## TooNice

MrPack said:


> Sorry it took me a while to get back to you. I'm doing okay, I went to happy hour with some buddies last night, came home and was in bed by 10pm lol. Today is a little tough seeing as how most of my friends are busy doing valentines day stuff with their significant others but I'll be okay.
> 
> Still haven't decided what I'm going to do with myself today. I don't really feel like sitting around the house all day and night but my motivation is lacking.
> 
> How are you doing??


I agree with honcho...each year gets a little easier. Last Valentine's Day was about a week before my court date. I went out to dinner and a movie with a girlfriend. This year, I drove to my son's college town for a visit. We had a great time tonight, and he's got some fun things planned for us tomorrow before I turn around to head home. It still creeps in my head that my ex is celebrating with the OW, but then I remember that I don't actually want him anymore. What you said is spot on... I miss what we once had. Or rather what I thought we had. 

Just remember that it's ok to wallow a little bit, but try to set limits on the lack of motivation. Give yourself a set period of time, and then snap yourself out of it. You're doing great.


----------



## MrPack

Thank you Honcho and TooNice... I ended up going mattress shopping yesterday for my new house then met some buddies for lunch. Didn't do anything last night but it was good to get out of the house for a bit.


----------



## unbe

MrPack said:


> Thank you Honcho and TooNice... I ended up going mattress shopping yesterday for my new house then met some buddies for lunch. Didn't do anything last night but it was good to get out of the house for a bit.


This is my first valentines day alone in almost 20 years. Hang in there buddy, I'm right there with you!


----------



## TooNice

MrPack, I thought you should know that I am feeling your lack of motivation. I'm totally in a funk this week. I am pretty sure I know why, but that doesn't make it easier to shake.

I did train at the gym this morning, then ran several miles to try to find my groove again. Not there yet, but hopefully soon. 

Hope you're dong better!!


----------



## Absurdist

TooNice said:


> MrPack, I thought you should know that I am feeling your lack of motivation. I'm totally in a funk this week. I am pretty sure I know why, but that doesn't make it easier to shake.
> 
> *I did train at the gym this morning, then ran several miles* to try to find my groove again. Not there yet, but hopefully soon.
> 
> Hope you're dong better!!




This ^^^^^^ is what MrPack needs to be doing.

Sigh.

I guess I'm just a Shadchan at heart. I'd love to put my arms through this monitor and grab Too Nice with my left and MrPack with my right and then thrown them together in some couples resort in Ocho Rios or Negril.

It would make my day. Heck, my month.

You two hang in there.


----------



## unbe

Mr Pack...How goes it my friend?


----------



## TooNice

Absurdist is making me blush...


----------



## Marc878

TooNice would probably look good in a Packers jersey :x:x:x

Right Mr Pack??????


----------



## TooNice

Oh, boy. 

Yep, Marc. I look fairly cute in my Rodgers jersey. I really miss my Butler jersey, though.:grin2:


----------



## MrPack

Oh boy... A good woman like TooNice in a packers jersey???? Thats all I need!


----------



## MrPack

unbe said:


> Mr Pack...How goes it my friend?


It's going okay, work is really killing me this week. I'm anxiously getting things lined up to move into my new place in a couple weeks, pretty excited about that. Otherwise nothing new. Thanks for checking in, my friend.


----------



## Pluto2

MrPack said:


> Oh boy... A good woman like TooNice in a packers jersey???? Thats all I need!


You are no longer invited on my cruise down to Belize-just saying. 

And I bet TooNice looks fab. in the jersey!


----------



## MrPack

Pluto2 said:


> You are no longer invited on my cruise down to Belize-just saying.
> 
> And I bet TooNice looks fab. in the jersey!


Haha come on now! I say the same about you too! :grin2:


----------



## TooNice

Pluto2 said:


> You are no longer invited on my cruise down to Belize-just saying.
> 
> And I bet TooNice looks fab. in the jersey!


Are you not a green and gold fan, Pluto? You know if we had gone on that trip with Pack during the NFL season, we both would have been dressed appropriately, right?


----------



## farsidejunky

TooNice said:


> Are you not a green and gold fan, Pluto? You know if we had gone on that trip with Pack during the NFL season, we both would have been dressed appropriately, right?


And the imagination runs wild with that post...



Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Pluto2

Like the succulent lobster I ate last week, I remain a devoted monogamist.

I wear Duke blue-or nothing.



@Absurdist, did you watch? Grayson Allen-man of destiny.


----------



## Absurdist

Pluto2 said:


> Like the succulent lobster I ate last week, I remain a devoted monogamist.
> 
> I wear Duke blue-or nothing.
> 
> 
> 
> @Absurdist, did you watch? Grayson Allen-man of destiny.



Yep, I did indeed. And I was wearing my navy blue Duke hoodie too. I didn't look near as hot as you gals though...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MrPack

1 week from Tuesday I'll finally be in my new place. Started buying furniture and house stuff this weekend... Feels good.


----------



## TooNice

MrPack said:


> 1 week from Tuesday I'll finally be in my new place. Started buying furniture and house stuff this weekend... Feels good.


So excited for you, Mr. Pack. Your fresh start is about to feel real. Take time and make your new place yours and a place you love to be. It was the best thing I did!


----------



## farsidejunky

MrPack said:


> 1 week from Tuesday I'll finally be in my new place. Started buying furniture and house stuff this weekend... Feels good.


Awesome! UFC 195 for a housewarming party?

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## MrPack

farsidejunky said:


> Awesome! UFC 195 for a housewarming party?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


You know it!


----------



## honcho

MrPack said:


> 1 week from Tuesday I'll finally be in my new place. Started buying furniture and house stuff this weekend... Feels good.


Don't buy anything too expensive. No doubt the next woman in your life will think you have horrible taste in furniture and you'll be out shopping again haha!


----------



## ReturntoZero

honcho said:


> Don't buy anything too expensive. No doubt the next woman in your life will think you have horrible taste in furniture and you'll be out shopping again haha!


On the other hand, when my wife moved out, she had an ex come in and help her take our bed.

I replaced it with the most expensive bedroom set I could find.

She took her "baby"... the grand piano out of the room I had customized for her "music"

I put a custom pool table right in the center of it, with my name engraved on the gold plate. Her oriental rug sits under it.

She's back.

The bedroom set and the pool table are still there.

Her piano (now returned home) is in the old dining room

It's all about emotional judo.


----------



## Pluto2

Shopping ....ah........can be quite cathartic, Mr. P. So happy for your positive developments. Life just keeps rolling along .... life the waves on the beach .... Roadtrips are still needed. But not down to Florida, their weather this week is icky (that is a technical meteorological term).


----------



## MrPack

I've never brought this up before but for years now I've had this dry patch/rash on my forehead that seems to come and go. I've been to the doctor a few times about it but nothing they give me ever works. I'm heading back to doctor today after work. I'm not going to lie I'm a bit anxious about it, the whole skin cancer scenario keeps running through my head. Fitting into everything else in my "new life" I just want to get past this and figure out whats going on. It's to the point lately that I'm always wearing a hat outside of work because of the self consciousness I have about it.

Anyway...just wanted to vent about that. I'm really hoping they can get this figured out.


----------



## Pluto2

Please post and tell us what the MD says. From experience: sometimes its nothing, and sometimes its something.

and I will worry about dear Mr. P. until I know for sure (yes, I will play the guilt card)


----------



## TooNice

Are you seeing the same doctor every time? And what kind of doc? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Absurdist

MrPack said:


> I've never brought this up before but for years now I've had this dry patch/rash on my forehead that seems to come and go. I've been to the doctor a few times about it but nothing they give me ever works. I'm heading back to doctor today after work. I'm not going to lie I'm a bit anxious about it, the whole skin cancer scenario keeps running through my head. Fitting into everything else in my "new life" I just want to get past this and figure out whats going on. It's to the point lately that I'm always wearing a hat outside of work because of the self consciousness I have about it.
> 
> Anyway...just wanted to vent about that. I'm really hoping they can get this figured out.


Get yourself to a dermatologist ASAP MrPack.

You know my story. Melanoma, surgery, radiation and chemo. But cancer free today. It was no picnic. If not for MrsAbsurdist badgering me to go (and loving me enough to do so) I wouldn't be around today.


----------



## MrPack

Just got home. I went to a dermatologist in fact it's the skin and cancer center for my state, they did a small biopsy only one stich. I go back in a week to get the stich out but they don't know yet whether the results will be back by then or not. 

In 2009 when it first flaired up they did a "sliver biopsy" and gave me some topical cream that didn't really work. I was back about 5 months ago and got a stronger topical still didn't work. I'm really hoping this biopsy will reveal what's going on. 

I'm pretty uneasy about this. Thanks everyone for the concern I will certainly keep you posted.


----------



## turnera

Sounds like psoriasis to me. The main place I get it (and my DD as well) is on the face, around the edges by the hairline.


----------



## TooNice

MrPack said:


> Just got home. I went to a dermatologist in fact it's the skin and cancer center for my state, they did a small biopsy only one stich. I go back in a week to get the stich out but they don't know yet whether the results will be back by then or not.
> 
> In 2009 when it first flaired up they did a "sliver biopsy" and gave me some topical cream that didn't really work. I was back about 5 months ago and got a stronger topical still didn't work. I'm really hoping this biopsy will reveal what's going on.
> 
> I'm pretty uneasy about this. Thanks everyone for the concern I will certainly keep you posted.


I'm glad you posted an update. Whatever happens, you are doing all the right things. They have been monitoring it for awhile now, and it's time to follow through to see what's going on. Many, many people stick their heads in the sand at times like this, and make things much worse. You are taking care of yourself, and that's so important. If it is something, you're handling it. 

If it is a psoriasis type thing, that stuff can flare up in times of stress, for whatever that's worth. 

I understand that you are uneasy, but hang in there. And be sure to keep us posted. You have lots of people sending you good thoughts.


----------



## LongWalk

Once you divorce the skin rash will fade


----------



## MrPack

turnera said:


> Sounds like psoriasis to me. The main place I get it (and my DD as well) is on the face, around the edges by the hairline.


I actually think it might be psoriasis as well (although I'm not doctor). I did some research and this rash that I've had over the years gets better when I'm out in the sun. In fact last summer when I was in Mexico on vacation it literally went away, I was outside on the beach for 5 days straight. I've read that some treatment for psoriasis is UV light and in some cases people have talked about it getting better or going away for a time after they've been in the sun. 

Whatever it is I hope it's nothing too serious and something I can get rid of fairly quickly.


----------



## turnera

Well, it never really goes away. And yes, the more sunlight, the more it goes away. But stress is a killer. When my mom divorced my dad, she was under so much stress that she literally became covered head to toe with scales. She had to sleep in a plastic sweatsuit to try to ameliorate it. And, I hate to tell you this, but her hair fell out, because the scales clogged up her hair follicles. 

So whatever you do, RELAX. Yoga. Meditation. Go for walks. Whatever it takes, find a way to destress.


----------



## MrPack

turnera said:


> Well, it never really goes away. And yes, the more sunlight, the more it goes away. But stress is a killer. When my mom divorced my dad, she was under so much stress that she literally became covered head to toe with scales. She had to sleep in a plastic sweatsuit to try to ameliorate it. And, I hate to tell you this, but her hair fell out, because the scales clogged up her hair follicles.
> 
> So whatever you do, RELAX. Yoga. Meditation. Go for walks. Whatever it takes, find a way to destress.


Man...that sounds terrible. Luckily it's only been on my forehead maybe 1/2in by 2in...so far anyway. Your poor mother...


----------



## turnera

It more or less skipped me, it usually skips a generation, and my DD25 has it. Mostly around her hairline and on her ears for the past 15 or so years. Just this year, she got a patch on her leg, and she went to the doctor and got some cream for it, and it quickly went away. But our doctor, who's been practicing for 20+ years, couldn't tell if it was really psoriasis - I guess it doesn't show up that often. We only knew it was because of my mom, who had it everywhere. Anyway, the cream she got was really effective. I'll try to remember to ask her what it's called.


----------



## MrPack

turnera said:


> It more or less skipped me, it usually skips a generation, and my DD25 has it. Mostly around her hairline and on her ears for the past 15 or so years. Just this year, she got a patch on her leg, and she went to the doctor and got some cream for it, and it quickly went away. But our doctor, who's been practicing for 20+ years, couldn't tell if it was really psoriasis - I guess it doesn't show up that often. We only knew it was because of my mom, who had it everywhere. Anyway, the cream she got was really effective. I'll try to remember to ask her what it's called.


That would be really great if you could find out what the cream was called. Thank you.


----------



## turnera

She had two kinds, desonide and triamcinoline. Doesn't remember which one was the last one given. But when I look them up, the triamcinoline is the first one that has a treatment for psoriasis listed.


----------



## MrPack

I'm going to catch some flak for this but I am still friends with my STBXW on facebook. With that said I posted a picture of myself today, yes its basically a "selfie". I was just on facebook and saw that my picture received a new "like". That new "like" was from my STBXW, it actually makes me mad that she liked my picture. I know the whole social media thing is stupid to some people and at times I think it is stupid but why on earth would she "like" a selfie of me? Is it her way of still trying to play that friends card? Or maybe it's her way of trying to convince other people that we are on good terms? We haven't communicated in anyway since I filed for divorce. 

Maybe I'm over reacting but I'm a little upset. I should have unfriended her a while back but I guess there is still the curiosity factor in me which I know is not healthy nor is it helping me move on with my life.


----------



## turnera

So unfriend her. Right now.


----------



## farsidejunky

turnera said:


> So unfriend her. Right now.


Agree.

Do you see how that one perceived kibble was enough to kick your world off of its axis?

Do it, Pack. Unfriend her.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## turnera

Did you unfriend her?


----------



## Marc878

turnera said:


> So unfriend her. Right now.


Ditto. Unfriend and block. 180 hard!!!! Her family as well. 

You need to move on now. Don't you think it's about time?


----------



## MrPack

I unfriended her. Still doesn't help me understand why she would "like" my picture. I was all amped up about going to a food/brew festival today with a buddy and now I'm fighting the thoughts in my head. And no I'm not thinking of "oh she wants to reconcile" or something stupid like that but it's thrown me off that's for sure.


----------



## farsidejunky

MrPack said:


> I unfriended her. Still doesn't help me understand why she would "like" my picture. I was all amped up about going to a food/brew festival today with a buddy and now I'm fighting the thoughts in my head. And no I'm not thinking of "oh she wants to reconcile" or something stupid like that but it's thrown me off that's for sure.


I know, brother. It hurts. Go to the brew festival anyway. Limit yourself to 3 or 4, check out the sights, and find a girl to chat up.

This too shall pass.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Marc878

MrPack said:


> I unfriended her. Still doesn't help me understand why she would "like" my picture. I was all amped up about going to a food/brew festival today with a buddy and now I'm fighting the thoughts in my head. And no I'm not thinking of "oh she wants to reconcile" or something stupid like that but it's thrown me off that's for sure.


That's why you need to get yourself completely out of this quagmire.

You keep that sh!t in your life in any form it'll just inhibit your moving on. She didn't care about walking out on you a long time ago. 

Once that divorce is final go completely dark and change your phone number and/or block everything. 

Unless you like being fed breadcrumbs. That's what the like was.


----------



## MrPack

Marc878 said:


> That's why you need to get yourself completely out of this quagmire.
> 
> You keep that sh!t in your life in any form it'll just inhibit your moving on. She didn't care about walking out on you a long time ago.
> 
> Once that divorce is final go completely dark and change your phone number and/or block everything.
> 
> Unless you like being fed breadcrumbs. That's what the like was.


I need to keep reminding myself about how it felt 9 months ago when she walked out of my life like it was nothing. I still have dreams more like nightmares about her, and I wake up feeling down but then I try to remind myself about her walking out of my life, her attending one marriage counseling session and being totally unwilling to put any work into fixing our marriage.

I'm just having a rough week with this whole forehead rash thing and now this stupid facebook $hit. I'm really hoping that when I move into my own place next week it'll feel like a fresh start and I gain some confidence back. I've been exercising a bit more lately but I still haven't gotten into a solid routine of lifting weights. I want so bad to get into great shape and finally start meeting women but I can feel the lack of self confidence I have inside. 

I talked to my sister this morning about all this crap and it did help a bit but I still find myself back on TAM waiting to hear from you all. I love my family more than anything but all of you have really been there for me and always have the advice and sometimes kick in the A$$ that I need. So thank you for that. 

I'm going to try and have a great day today and forget about the stupid menial facebook $hit.


----------



## farsidejunky

Look at the bright side, brother. You are going to a function that will give you the opportunity to sample some spectacular beers. I would love to be able to do that, but I am simply not disciplined enough to have 2 or 3; it turns into 10 or 12.

Enjoy your day, brother.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Marc878

When you move into your new place anything that was from her in the trash. Throw it all out. Self confidence is in the mind but the gym will work wonders as well as new clothes. Out with the old.

Cut her family off too. It'll just set you back seeing that crap. If you have wedding photos I'd delete or throw them out. Your choice but start the rest of your life out right.

Pawn the wedding band. 

Good luck


----------



## TooNice

MrPack said:


> I need to keep reminding myself about how it felt 9 months ago when she walked out of my life like it was nothing. I still have dreams more like nightmares about her, and I wake up feeling down but then I try to remind myself about her walking out of my life, her attending one marriage counseling session and being totally unwilling to put any work into fixing our marriage.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm just having a rough week with this whole forehead rash thing and now this stupid facebook $hit. I'm really hoping that when I move into my own place next week it'll feel like a fresh start and I gain some confidence back. I've been exercising a bit more lately but I still haven't gotten into a solid routine of lifting weights. I want so bad to get into great shape and finally start meeting women but I can feel the lack of self confidence I have inside.
> 
> 
> 
> I talked to my sister this morning about all this crap and it did help a bit but I still find myself back on TAM waiting to hear from you all. I love my family more than anything but all of you have really been there for me and always have the advice and sometimes kick in the A$$ that I need. So thank you for that.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm going to try and have a great day today and forget about the stupid menial facebook $hit.



Good for you for taking action. Facebook has some ridiculous hold over us, I know. I have allowed days to be ruined because of things I have seen there. I still haven't unfriended my ex, but I feel like it's different because he's the father of my child. I did block the OW, so I no longer see her infiltration into my family. That's been liberating. 

Please don't change your plans today. You'll have fun when you get there, and you'll be glad you went. 

I've said it before, but you're doing so well, MrPack. It really is one step forward and two back sometimes. It just feels like the steps back are really big sometimes. 


~Just breathe.


----------



## Chaparral

There is also an ignore feature on Facebook. It's good if you don't want to dis an old friend by I friending them. I found when an old school chum started posting about every lame politically correct topic in the world.


----------



## turnera

MrPack said:


> I unfriended her. Still doesn't help me understand why she would "like" my picture. I was all amped up about going to a food/brew festival today with a buddy and now I'm fighting the thoughts in my head. And no I'm not thinking of "oh she wants to reconcile" or something stupid like that but it's thrown me off that's for sure.


Basic psychology. As long as you're letting her be your FB friend, and as long as she 'likes' your stuff, YOU are saying to the world that what she did wasn't all that bad. And that's what she wants.


----------



## ReturntoZero

turnera said:


> Basic psychology. As long as you're letting her be your FB friend, and as long as she 'likes' your stuff, YOU are saying to the world that what she did wasn't all that bad. And that's what she wants.


Quoted for Truth

You're attempting to read the tea leaves of what it "means". Turnera is on this. SHE doesn't wish to think of herself as a "bad person", so she's throwing you a bone.

Don't let her.

You're first emotional response is what it "means". But, if you look a bit deeper, you're wondering what it means for YOU.

The answer is "nothing"

This is all about her and has been since the day she walked out.

You're not even a consideration - just a stage prop.

As cold and callous as that may seem, understanding this point will help you heal.


----------



## MrPack

I could use some positive vibes my way. I'm really struggling tonight, my mind is racing about this skin rash. Of course I keep going back to worst case scenerios. Ive had this rash off and on since 2009. I first had a small biopsy in 2009 and they didn't say a word about skin cancer also It literally will go away when I'm out in direct sunlight for a good amount of time like when I was on vacation. I'm trying to not let it eat me up inside but it's hard especially tonight. 

My family thinks it's psoriasis but obviously they aren't doctors. I go back Wednesday to get the stich out and they might have the results back. If the doctor thought it could be skin cancer do you think she would have said something at some point during my last couple appointments?


----------



## turnera

My ex-SIL, who divorced my brother, told me at first that it was because of my brother, all his crap. Not too hard to believe; I avoid him, too. Turns out, though, that she met up with a long-lost unrequitted love from high school, and the rest is history.

She kept texting me, trying to stay my friend and all, and I was fine with that, knowing how hard my brother is to live with.

Until I found out about her lover. Next time she texted me, I said 'oh, btw, I heard that you found your long-lost lover.' She said 'oh really?' and wouldn't comment on it further. 

But it was the last time she texted me. She knew I knew.

Re: your skin. Did you ASK your doctor if it was psoriasis? You can PM me a picture and I'll tell you if it is.


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## MrPack

turnera said:


> My ex-SIL, who divorced my brother, told me at first that it was because of my brother, all his crap. Not too hard to believe; I avoid him, too. Turns out, though, that she met up with a long-lost unrequitted love from high school, and the rest is history.
> 
> She kept texting me, trying to stay my friend and all, and I was fine with that, knowing how hard my brother is to live with.
> 
> Until I found out about her lover. Next time she texted me, I said 'oh, btw, I heard that you found your long-lost lover.' She said 'oh really?' and wouldn't comment on it further.
> 
> But it was the last time she texted me. She knew I knew.
> 
> Re: your skin. Did you ASK your doctor if it was psoriasis? You can PM me a picture and I'll tell you if it is.


No, I didnt ask what she thought it might be. I guess I just get so anxious when I'm at the doctor I wanted to just get out of there. I'll certainly be asking more questions Wendesday when I go in to get the stitch out.


----------



## Marduk

MrPack said:


> I'm going to catch some flak for this but I am still friends with my STBXW on facebook. With that said I posted a picture of myself today, yes its basically a "selfie". I was just on facebook and saw that my picture received a new "like". That new "like" was from my STBXW, it actually makes me mad that she liked my picture. I know the whole social media thing is stupid to some people and at times I think it is stupid but why on earth would she "like" a selfie of me? Is it her way of still trying to play that friends card? Or maybe it's her way of trying to convince other people that we are on good terms? We haven't communicated in anyway since I filed for divorce.
> 
> Maybe I'm over reacting but I'm a little upset. I should have unfriended her a while back but I guess there is still the curiosity factor in me which I know is not healthy nor is it helping me move on with my life.


Why the hell are you still friends with her on FB?


----------



## MrPack

marduk said:


> Why the hell are you still friends with her on FB?


I'm not anymore...but yes I was being an idiot and up until a couple days ago I was still following her on FB.


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## Marc878

Block her family too. Only a chicken can live off breadcrumbs.

As soon as the divorce is final change your phone number. You've wasted way to much time on this. You're just keeping yourself in limbo.

If she had any thoughts of you at all she wouldn't have walked out close to a year ago and not looked back would she????!


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## MrPack

Just some added stress I just received two yes TWO photo radar tickets in the mail. It's almost laughable at this point.


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## bandit.45

MrPack said:


> No, I didnt ask what she thought it might be. I guess I just get so anxious when I'm at the doctor I wanted to just get out of there. I'll certainly be asking more questions Wendesday when I go in to get the stitch out.


Are the rash and lesions focused around your elbows and joints? I have a bit of psoriasis. That's where it is attacking me. It sucks, but it's manageable with topical medicine.


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## honcho

Speeding tickets? I've received a couple love letters over the years from the Illinois toll way system for blowing thru toll stops I didn't even knew existed.


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## MrPack

bandit.45 said:


> Are the rash and lesions focused around your elbows and joints? I have a bit of psoriasis. That's where it is attacking me. It sucks, but it's manageable with topical medicine.


Mine is mainly on part of my forehead...


----------



## MrPack

honcho said:


> Speeding tickets? I've received a couple love letters over the years from the Illinois toll way system for blowing thru toll stops I didn't even knew existed.


Yea, mine were both for speeding. I've heard a lot from people saying that if no one physically hands you the photo radar ticket you can ignore it and it'll go away. However I'm not sure I want to take that chance. The last thing I need right now is legal issues like having my drivers license suspended.


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## Tron

Rest assured, the State has developed numerous methods to make sure they get their money...DL renewal, vehicle registration renewal, etc.

Best to fight it now or pay. If you don't then the penalties and interest will start racking up too.


----------



## helolover

MrPack said:


> I need to keep reminding myself about how it felt 9 months ago when she walked out of my life like it was nothing. I still have dreams more like nightmares about her, and I wake up feeling down but then I try to remind myself about her walking out of my life, her attending one marriage counseling session and being totally unwilling to put any work into fixing our marriage.
> 
> I'm just having a rough week with this whole forehead rash thing and now this stupid facebook $hit. I'm really hoping that when I move into my own place next week it'll feel like a fresh start and I gain some confidence back. I've been exercising a bit more lately but I still haven't gotten into a solid routine of lifting weights. I want so bad to get into great shape and finally start meeting women but I can feel the lack of self confidence I have inside.
> 
> I talked to my sister this morning about all this crap and it did help a bit but I still find myself back on TAM waiting to hear from you all. I love my family more than anything but all of you have really been there for me and always have the advice and sometimes kick in the A$$ that I need. So thank you for that.
> 
> I'm going to try and have a great day today and forget about the stupid menial facebook $hit.


Facebook is dumb. Recommend you only participate very irregularly.

Your scarcity increases your value.


----------



## MrPack

I just got home about 30 minutes ago from the doctor. They say I have a type of dermatitis, I wish it was something more concrete with a more solid solution but it's a lot better than what I had been fearing. I would be a liar if I didn't say I've been very anxious and scared the past few days waiting for my biopsy results. Big relief to hear that I don't have anything too serious. They gave me some cream to use for the next 2 months then I go back for a check up. I really hope this works and I can move forward from this. I had been seeing a PA this whole time but my next appointment will be with the senior Dr at the Skin and Cancer center.

I may have seemed over dramatic to some of you regarding this subject this past week but I really was worried. Anyway... I'm happy to say that now I can really enjoy and put all my energy this week into moving and settling into my new house. 

Thank you all for the positive words.


----------



## Absurdist

MrPack said:


> Yea, mine were both for speeding. I've heard a lot from people saying that if no one physically hands you the photo radar ticket you can ignore it and it'll go away. However I'm not sure I want to take that chance. The last thing I need right now is legal issues like having my drivers license suspended.


MrPack- I know a good lawyer in your locale. He's pretty good if you killed somebody but he probably couldn't handle speeding tickets. :wink2:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TooNice

MrPack said:


> I just got home about 30 minutes ago from the doctor. They say I have a type of dermatitis, I wish it was something more concrete with a more solid solution but it's a lot better than what I had been fearing. I would be a liar if I didn't say I've been very anxious and scared the past few days waiting for my biopsy results. Big relief to hear that I don't have anything too serious. They gave me some cream to use for the next 2 months then I go back for a check up. I really hope this works and I can move forward from this. I had been seeing a PA this whole time but my next appointment will be with the senior Dr at the Skin and Cancer center.
> 
> I may have seemed over dramatic to some of you regarding this subject this past week but I really was worried. Anyway... I'm happy to say that now I can really enjoy and put all my energy this week into moving and settling into my new house.
> 
> Thank you all for the positive words.


Not overly dramatic at all. It's scary to face something unknown when you have so many other changes going on. 

I'm glad it was nothing more serious. Now focus on your awesome new place!


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## Pluto2

Whee! So glad that's all it was.
Now concentrate on the big move. Make it yours Mr. P.


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## MrPack

Today is the big moving day. About to go pick up the Uhaul in an hour. I got a lot done yesterday with small stuff and finished shopping for essentials. Tonight I'll be kicked back on my couch with a few buddies watching UFC 196 in the new pad!


----------



## farsidejunky

MrPack said:


> Today is the big moving day. About to go pick up the Uhaul in an hour. I got a lot done yesterday with small stuff and finished shopping for essentials. Tonight I'll be kicked back on my couch with a few buddies watching UFC 196 in the new pad!


Nice! Enjoy it, Pack. You have good things coming to you, brother.

Edit: Holmes or Tate? Diaz or McGregor?

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## LongWalk

Holm and MacGregor.

Diaz is a mean azz. He won't go easy. Tate is not in the same class Holm.


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## MrPack

I agree with Longwalk.

By the way I'm sitting on my new back patio enjoying an adult beverage waiting for the direct tv guy to finish. Ahhhhh it feels great to be back on my own. I couldn't be happier.


----------



## farsidejunky

Tate?!?

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Absurdist

MrPack said:


> I agree with Longwalk.
> 
> By the way I'm sitting on my new back patio enjoying an adult beverage waiting for the direct tv guy to finish. Ahhhhh it feels great to be back on my own. I couldn't be happier.



MrPack - I assume you let Too Nice and Pluto2 help you with the decorating. Did they get you some Persian rugs? Did they buy them through Sotheby's? Accessories MrPack? Please tell me they didn't order crap through Williams-Sonoma.

You are doing well my friend. Go back and read your very first post. You've come light years.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MrPack

Thank you sir. I wish I could say they were here helping me decorate id give them free reign! 

Night 3 in the new house has been great, took my dog for a walk around the new neighborhood after work, now I have roasted chicken and veggies in the oven. Fresh herbs, potatoes and carrots (yes homemade). Forgot to mention I love to cook...

It was a little weird the first morning waking up here "alone" kind of brought old feelings back but luckily that didn't last long. I'm very happy and content here. So far so good.


----------



## LongWalk

Well, I knew Diaz was a beast, but I didn't expect Tate to be able hold Holm down. This will make Rousey feel even worse.


----------



## farsidejunky

LongWalk said:


> Well, I knew Diaz was a beast, but I didn't expect Tate to be able hold Holm down. This will make Rousey feel even worse.


I think it will motivate her. She dominated Tate in their last fight.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## MrPack

I hope everyone is having a good weekend so far. 

I called to check on the divorce yesterday, for some reason I was thinking it should have been finalized by now. I was wrong, they told me at least a couple more weeks. Feels like its taking forever. I've been okay in regards to that subject but I am worried that once I have the final documents in hand it'll hit me a bit. 

That's my little rant for the day. Hope everyone is well.


----------



## farsidejunky

MrPack said:


> I hope everyone is having a good weekend so far.
> 
> I called to check on the divorce yesterday, for some reason I was thinking it should have been finalized by now. I was wrong, they told me at least a couple more weeks. Feels like its taking forever. I've been okay in regards to that subject but I am worried that once I have the final documents in hand it'll hit me a bit.
> 
> That's my little rant for the day. Hope everyone is well.


It will, and that is okay. Mourn it.

Then end your pity party and go be great.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## honcho

MrPack said:


> I hope everyone is having a good weekend so far.
> 
> I called to check on the divorce yesterday, for some reason I was thinking it should have been finalized by now. I was wrong, they told me at least a couple more weeks. Feels like its taking forever. I've been okay in regards to that subject but I am worried that once I have the final documents in hand it'll hit me a bit.
> 
> That's my little rant for the day. Hope everyone is well.


They have a tendency to just mail the docs and one day in the mail the paperwork appears. It really would be nice to get some warning or a specific date so you can "be ready". You'll feel kicked in the gut when they show, even when you know the divorce needed to happen.


----------



## Absurdist

So MrPack, this is very important. You do realize that your bulldog can be a chick magnet? 😜

Walk that dude where women hang out. I had a friend who took this sappy Bassett Hound to the park. Within 30 minutes he'd have girls all around him... "Aw he's so cute..."

I said wow who knew? He said this is the only reason I bought this worthless cur.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 225985

Absurdist said:


> So MrPack, this is very important. *You do realize that your bulldog can be a chick magnet?* &#55357;&#56860;
> 
> Walk that dude where women hang out. I had a friend who took this sappy Bassett Hound to the park. Within 30 minutes he'd have girls all around him... "Aw he's so cute..."
> 
> I said wow who knew? He said this is the only reason I bought this worthless cur.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


OMG this is so true. I have a bulldog that we rescued from a shelter. Pure chick magnet. Guys and gals approach me and tell me I have a good looking dog. Many times people driving by just stop in the road to talk to me about the dog. I am married, but I told the wife if we ever get divorced I am keep the dog.

Take your dog to the park or a dog park or just walk him/her where people may be.


----------



## philreag

You give me encouragement. I'm back on my boat again and most of the time enjoy being on my own. Have my son 3-4 times a week. Also my 6 year old is a great chick magnet too.


----------



## TooNice

Hmmm... perhaps I need to consider adopting a dog... 

;-)


~Just breathe.


----------



## unbe

I can 1000% attest to this. I have a puppy bulldog and his only job is to lure in females...

Hes doing a fine job at it...lol


----------



## MrPack

HAHAHAHA. When my English Bulldog was a puppy she was 100% a chick magnet. She's getting a little old these days but still attracts plenty of attention when I take her out.


----------



## turnera

I drove by one of my city's many dog parks yesterday, and there was this guy there, reclining on the grassy hill, with his German Shepherd reclining behind him...all majestic like...and I'm not even in the market, and I was immediately drawn to watch them. It was SUCH an emotional draw. Just so cool.


----------



## MrPack

Well it's been a helluva day. Worked from home but spent the majority of the day calling into meetings felt like I got nothing done. Work has been abnormally busy the past couple weeks and I can feel it starting to get to me. I sort of snapped at someone yesterday in a meeting regarding a deadline that was very unrealistic. I didn't yell but you could tell I wasn't happy, I'm not typically like that so there were a few odd looks. I walked out of the meeting feeling bad for snapping at the guy like that but oh well. 

I then come to realize about 20 mins ago that none of the outlets in both bathrooms work. I sent a text to my landlord but haven't heard back yet. I'm not used to this whole renting thing but it should only be for a year.

One of my bestfriends called me today telling me that he is finally proposing to his girlfriend. I am very happy for the both of them but deep down inside it sort of hurt, I'm very bitter in regards to marriage and even love these days. (I'm guessing these feelings are normal??)

All menial issues I know but I felt like I needed to rant.

Right now I'm sitting on my back patio enjoying the 80 degree weather having a ****tail and finally ordering an area rug for my living room. My sister sent me literally 10 links to different rugs and has been bugging me to order one. I guess todays the day for that.I have chicken thawing in the sink and bell peppers, broccoli and carrots in the fridge ready to make some stir fry. 

I hope you all are having a good week. Sorry for rambling, like I said I needed to vent.


----------



## Marc878

Hey at least you're in your own place. Life gets better. Don't sweat the small stuff


----------



## honcho

MrPack said:


> Well it's been a helluva day. Worked from home but spent the majority of the day calling into meetings felt like I got nothing done. Work has been abnormally busy the past couple weeks and I can feel it starting to get to me. I sort of snapped at someone yesterday in a meeting regarding a deadline that was very unrealistic. I didn't yell but you could tell I wasn't happy, I'm not typically like that so there were a few odd looks. I walked out of the meeting feeling bad for snapping at the guy like that but oh well.
> 
> I then come to realize about 20 mins ago that none of the outlets in both bathrooms work. I sent a text to my landlord but haven't heard back yet. I'm not used to this whole renting thing but it should only be for a year.
> 
> One of my bestfriends called me today telling me that he is finally proposing to his girlfriend. I am very happy for the both of them but deep down inside it sort of hurt, I'm very bitter in regards to marriage and even love these days. (I'm guessing these feelings are normal??)
> 
> All menial issues I know but I felt like I needed to rant.
> 
> Right now I'm sitting on my back patio enjoying the 80 degree weather having a ****tail and finally ordering an area rug for my living room. My sister sent me literally 10 links to different rugs and has been bugging me to order one. I guess todays the day for that.I have chicken thawing in the sink and bell peppers, broccoli and carrots in the fridge ready to make some stir fry.
> 
> I hope you all are having a good week. Sorry for rambling, like I said I needed to vent.


Getting used to and learning the quirks of a new place takes some time. You've got a bunch of little things annoying you.

It's normal to feel a little bitter and cynical towards love and relationships right now, it's a phase and will pass, just part of the road to healing yourself.


----------



## MrPack

I hope you all had a great Easter weekend, whatever you did I hope you were able to enjoy the company of your family/loved ones/friends.


----------



## AVR1962

Absurdist said:


> So MrPack, this is very important. You do realize that your bulldog can be a chick magnet? 😜
> 
> Walk that dude where women hang out. I had a friend who took this sappy Bassett Hound to the park. Within 30 minutes he'd have girls all around him... "Aw he's so cute..."
> 
> I said wow who knew? He said this is the only reason I bought this worthless cur.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yep, a dog lover here...especially my bassets!


----------



## WhyMe66

AVR1962 said:


> Yep, a dog lover here...especially my bassets!


Dogs are AWESOME! Better than people most of the time...


----------



## ReturntoZero

WhyMe66 said:


> Dogs are AWESOME! Better than people most of the time...


Most?


----------



## WhyMe66

ReturntoZero said:


> Most?


Sorry, when it comes to oral-butt hygiene I draw the line...


----------



## anewstine

LOL!


----------



## anewstine

You two made me giggle...felt good...thanks.


----------



## MrPack

One of the things I've been putting off for a while now is finding an independent counselor. I'm finally at that point where I know it needs to happen. I still have underlying issues with my failed marriage and just the overall aspect of where my head is at right now. My question is should I just google local counselors or call my EAP and ask for a list of names within my area? 

I'm not picky but I guess I just don't know where to start. The marriage counselor I went to and "we" went to (one time) was referred by a family friend but he's a marriage counsellor and I didn't really like him anyway. 

google?? EAP?? 

Maybe I'm overthinking it...?


----------



## TooNice

I think either option would be fine. Your EAP might be able to narrow it down for you if you know something specific you'd like to work on. (When I looked for my therapist, I wanted one that specialized in life transitions.) I'm glad you know it's necessary and that you are pursuing it! 


~Just breathe.


----------



## Absurdist

Your primary care doc should be able to refer you to a counsellor. I would start there.

MrPack- what issues do you think you need to address?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MrPack

Absurdist said:


> Your primary care doc should be able to refer you to a counsellor. I would start there.
> 
> MrPack- what issues do you think you need to address?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The lack of self confidence I'm feeling right now. I feel like the last 11 years of my life were a big waste and failure. I mean I'm doing great at work and have made some positive steps forward but I still have a lot of anger towards my STBXW and this soon to be divorce. I think I've mentioned it recently but my fuse is very short these days. 

And this one is weird...for a while now I would say the past year or so I've had this fear of losing my parents. Maybe its because I no longer have that life partner I had in my STBXW. Now that she is gone my dad especially is someone I fall back on when I'm struggling.


----------



## turnera

Are you doing anything to bring in other people into your life? Good friends? Family members like cousins?


----------



## MrPack

turnera said:


> Are you doing anything to bring in other people into your life? Good friends? Family members like cousins?


I do have a real tight group of buddies, about 4 of us and I do go to them for advice or to vent from time to time but I don't want to always burden them with my crap. I have cousins close to where I live but we've never been close.


----------



## HobbesTheTiger

While you're looking for an IC, I'd recommend you check a few books, some of which are available online for free. Google "No more mr. nice guy pdf", "Toxic parents pdf" (in case you had a rough youth) and "Codependent no more pdf" - these are all available online for free. For others, check "Families and how to survive them", "Married man sex life primer", "Not just friends" and "5 languages of love". Imho, these are some of the books any man that's not too young or too old to understand,..., ought to read to get the knowledge&tools to vastly improve himself and his life. 

Best wishes!


----------



## HobbesTheTiger

Oh, and it's great that you'll be seeing a good IC! I spent around three years in IC (with shorter or longer periods between sessions) and it was well worth the time, energy and money.


----------



## Marc878

I don't get depressed very often but when I do.

*I have lunch at HOOTERS.*

I recommend the grilled chicken breast sandwich.


----------



## honcho

Marc878 said:


> I don't get depressed very often but when I do.
> 
> *I have lunch at HOOTERS.*
> 
> I recommend the grilled chicken breast sandwich.


You'd be depressed after having lunch at the HOOTERS here....food stinks too


----------



## Marc878

honcho said:


> You'd be depressed after having lunch at the HOOTERS here....food stinks too


That's why they have beer.


----------



## MrPack

HobbesTheTiger said:


> While you're looking for an IC, I'd recommend you check a few books, some of which are available online for free. Google "No more mr. nice guy pdf", "Toxic parents pdf" (in case you had a rough youth) and "Codependent no more pdf" - these are all available online for free. For others, check "Families and how to survive them", "Married man sex life primer", "Not just friends" and "5 languages of love". Imho, these are some of the books any man that's not too young or too old to understand,..., ought to read to get the knowledge&tools to vastly improve himself and his life.
> 
> Best wishes!



Thank you, I actually bought "No more Mr. Nice Guy" a while back and found it helped a lot. I'll look into the other books you mentioned. Thanks again.


----------



## MrPack

Marc878 said:


> I don't get depressed very often but when I do.
> 
> *I have lunch at HOOTERS.*
> 
> I recommend the grilled chicken breast sandwich.


We have a place out here called Tilted Kilt, good scenery and the food is a lot better than Hooters. :grin2:


----------



## Marc878

MrPack said:


> We have a place out here called Tilted Kilt, good scenery and the food is a lot better than Hooters. :grin2:


Why were we not informed about this?

We come here kill ourselves trying to help you and you hide sh!t like this.

WTH!!!!! Is the beer cold? >


----------



## honcho

MrPack said:


> The lack of self confidence I'm feeling right now. I feel like the last 11 years of my life were a big waste and failure. I mean I'm doing great at work and have made some positive steps forward but I still have a lot of anger towards my STBXW and this soon to be divorce. I think I've mentioned it recently but my fuse is very short these days.
> 
> And this one is weird...for a while now I would say the past year or so I've had this fear of losing my parents. Maybe its because I no longer have that life partner I had in my STBXW. Now that she is gone my dad especially is someone I fall back on when I'm struggling.


The self confidence comes back, it happens slowly at first but it does. The years weren't a waste and as you confidence comes back you will see that.

Your fuse is short and it's probably subconscious stress for lack of a better term waiting for paperwork and the divorce to be final. I was the same way anticpating/dreading for the paperwork from the court, things like that. 

Your reliance on you dad is normal too right now. My dad has been gone for many years and when he was alive I valued his opinion but I wasn't reliant on it but during my divorce I found myself thinking many times how I wished I could get his perspectives and "burden him" with my problems.


----------



## farsidejunky

honcho said:


> You'd be depressed after having lunch at the HOOTERS here....food stinks too


Who goes to Hooters for the food?!?

It all sucks.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## MrPack

Marc878 said:


> Why were we not informed about this?
> 
> We come here kill ourselves trying to help you and you hide sh!t like this.
> 
> WTH!!!!! Is the beer cold? >


haha the beer is always cold and the wings are on point!


----------



## MrPack

I'm at work for about 10 mins this morning and my boss asks me to come see her in her office. Naturally I was nervous...what the heck is going on?? Well she called me in there to tell me that they are giving me a 14% salary increase! Needless to say I'm pretty happy right now, all these hours I've been putting in. It's nice to get recognition for the hard work.


----------



## Absurdist

MrPack said:


> I'm at work for about 10 mins this morning and my boss asks me to come see her in her office. Naturally I was nervous...what the heck is going on?? Well she called me in there to tell me that they are giving me a 14% salary increase! Needless to say I'm pretty happy right now, all these hours I've been putting in. It's nice to get recognition for the hard work.


Great job MrPack! You did things the old fashioned way... You earned it.

MrPack a 14% pay increase is a considerable amount in this economy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## honcho

MrPack said:


> I'm at work for about 10 mins this morning and my boss asks me to come see her in her office. Naturally I was nervous...what the heck is going on?? Well she called me in there to tell me that they are giving me a 14% salary increase! Needless to say I'm pretty happy right now, all these hours I've been putting in. It's nice to get recognition for the hard work.


Congrats on the raise. The recognition will help boost the old self esteem too.


----------



## Herschel

I was wondering if it was going to be the beginning of a hustler forum letter, but 14% is solid man. Congrats...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MrPack

Herschel said:


> I was wondering if it was going to be the beginning of a hustler forum letter, but 14% is solid man. Congrats...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hahahaha. I see what you did there...


----------



## Marc878

Hahahaha damn I thought I was the only one thinking that. 

3-5% is avg.

10% is usually for a job promotion.

14% unheard of, she may want in your pants >


----------



## MrPack

Marc878 said:


> Hahahaha damn I thought I was the only one thinking that.
> 
> 3-5% is avg.
> 
> 10% is usually for a job promotion.
> 
> 14% unheard of, she may want in your pants >


Funny thing is... her ex husband was my boss about a year ago when I was in a different department.


----------



## honcho

MrPack said:


> Funny thing is... her ex husband was my boss about a year ago when I was in a different department.


So she has had her eye on you for a while. Play hard to get and hold out for a bigger raise, that way you won't feel cheap and used haha! >

Again congrats on raise, it's always a good feeling to see your hard work gets noticed.


----------



## Archangel2

MrPack said:


> I'm at work for about 10 mins this morning and my boss asks me to come see her in her office. Naturally I was nervous...what the heck is going on?? Well she called me in there to tell me that they are giving me a 14% salary increase! Needless to say I'm pretty happy right now, all these hours I've been putting in. It's nice to get recognition for the hard work.


Mr. Pack - Congrats! It's nice to see the good guys win one for a change. Keep up the good work. But whatever you do, do not become complacent.


----------



## Marc878

I found that socks stuffed in front of your underwear works really well. Stand up real straight when you walk in her office.


----------



## MrPack

I got a call from an assistant at the county commissioners office this afternoon. Apparently there is still confusion regarding whether or not my STBXW will keep my last name or go back to her maiden name. This is the 3rd time since I initially filed that I'm dealing with this. Anyway they said this was the only thing holding up the process. once they get my STBXW on the phone to have her also confirm that she will keep my last name then it'll go to the clerk. I'm not going to lie, part of me wanted to text her to let her know that she needs to answer her damnnn phone when they call so we can wrap this up but I stopped myself. It's no longer my responsibility to make sure she is "adulting"...

Other than that I'm having a pretty good week. This is my short work week with Friday off. Tomorrow evening I'm going to the Chris Stapleton concert with some friends, yard work Friday, then Saturday playing in a charity scramble golf tournament and finally Sunday helping my aunt and uncle move. Pretty packed end of the week.


----------



## MrPack

On a positive note, just received a letter in the mail saying that both my speeding tickets were dismissed.


----------



## TooNice

Woo hoo! Good for you, Mr. Pack. Love all the good stuff happening for you. You deserve it. 

Just remember, if you win the lottery on top of all this goodness, you owe me and Pluto a trip somewhere warm.


----------



## honcho

MrPack said:


> I got a call from an assistant at the county commissioners office this afternoon. Apparently there is still confusion regarding whether or not my STBXW will keep my last name or go back to her maiden name. This is the 3rd time since I initially filed that I'm dealing with this. Anyway they said this was the only thing holding up the process. once they get my STBXW on the phone to have her also confirm that she will keep my last name then it'll go to the clerk. I'm not going to lie, part of me wanted to text her to let her know that she needs to answer her damnnn phone when they call so we can wrap this up but I stopped myself. It's no longer my responsibility to make sure she is "adulting"...
> 
> Other than that I'm having a pretty good week. This is my short work week with Friday off. Tomorrow evening I'm going to the Chris Stapleton concert with some friends, yard work Friday, then Saturday playing in a charity scramble golf tournament and finally Sunday helping my aunt and uncle move. Pretty packed end of the week.


My crazy ex was insistent on going back to her maiden name and was in such a hurry to change it, she didn't realize the court spelled her last name wrong. I noticed it right away and could have easily said something but I've cleaned up enough of her messes. 

I've got the itch to golf bad, I haven't much the last two years, the weather guys here keep claiming it's going to get warm....today it snowed :frown2:


----------



## farsidejunky

honcho said:


> My crazy ex was insistent on going back to her maiden name and was in such a hurry to change it, she didn't realize the court spelled her last name wrong. I noticed it right away and could have easily said something but I've cleaned up enough of her messes.
> 
> I've got the itch to golf bad, I haven't much the last two years, the weather guys here keep claiming it's going to get warm....today it snowed :frown2:


Priceless!

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Absurdist

honcho said:


> My crazy ex was insistent on going back to her maiden name and was in such a hurry to change it, she didn't realize the court spelled her last name wrong. I noticed it right away and could have easily said something but I've cleaned up enough of her messes.
> 
> I've got the itch to golf bad, I haven't much the last two years, the weather guys here keep claiming it's going to get warm....today it snowed :frown2:


Honcho - when I was a young lawyer I had to cover "docket days" for the firm (we're talking 38 years ago). The firm had tons of cases so I was plenty busy. I remember this pre-trial where a young lady wanted her maiden name restored. The thing was her maiden name was Wilson and her married name was Wilson. The judge says "uh uh you want your maiden name restored? Yes your honor." He looks vacantly and says "I reckon I can make it so."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## honcho

Absurdist said:


> Honcho - when I was a young lawyer I had to cover "docket days" for the firm (we're talking 38 years ago). The firm had tons of cases so I was plenty busy. I remember this pre-trial where a young lady wanted her maiden name restored. The thing was her maiden name was Wilson and her married name was Wilson. The judge says "uh uh you want your maiden name restored? Yes your honor." He looks vacantly and says "I reckon I can make it so."
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is why I can't be a judge I would have denied her request so she would have been stuck with Wilson....


----------



## MrPack

TooNice said:


> Woo hoo! Good for you, Mr. Pack. Love all the good stuff happening for you. You deserve it.
> 
> Just remember, if you win the lottery on top of all this goodness, you owe me and Pluto a trip somewhere warm.


DEAL!!:grin2:


----------



## MrPack

So the concert was phenomenal last night. We get there and once we get to the spot where we wanted to sit/stand I see my STBXW's long time best friend and her husband. I waited for a bit to make sure my ex wasn't with them then I went over and said hi. We actually ended up hanging out with them the whole time. Both of them at different points asked how I was doing and at one point her best friends husband was telling me that in his opinion I lucked out by getting out of that marriage so soon. I said yea I'm starting to see that, I don't wish anything bad upon her however I also no longer care what is going on in her life. He then told me that he wouldn't get into detail but that she is constantly hitting "road blocks" in her life since she left me. I replied back with well that doesn't surprise me but again I don't want to know details. 

Part of me feels a little bad that it sounds like she isn't doing so well and then at times part of me sort of likes hearing that. Normal?

Anyway, I felt I did a good job in not saying anything to them in regards to my ex or myself that would cause any drama. I was very generic with all that.


----------



## Pluto2

Let it go Mr. P.

You could say it was karma, or, more likely, she no longer has you to handle the details of her life and isn't facing the realities well. Either way-not your problem.

I'm feeling lucky.


I'll go pack.


----------



## farsidejunky

You did well.

Two things:

1. You know this, so this is a gentle reminder. She is no longer your problem. For emphasis, she is no longer your problem. And in case you forget, she is no longer your problem. I hope my murky communication methods are reaching you... lol

2. You must address the need to "fix", either in counseling, or aggressive self improvement. Being a knight in shining armor will make you appear to broken people (and women, your future potential partners) like a 100 watt light in the middle of a swamp does to mosquitoes. They will flock to you. Address it now, before it becomes a problem again.


----------



## honcho

MrPack said:


> So the concert was phenomenal last night. We get there and once we get to the spot where we wanted to sit/stand I see my STBXW's long time best friend and her husband. I waited for a bit to make sure my ex wasn't with them then I went over and said hi. We actually ended up hanging out with them the whole time. Both of them at different points asked how I was doing and at one point her best friends husband was telling me that in his opinion I lucked out by getting out of that marriage so soon. I said yea I'm starting to see that, I don't wish anything bad upon her however I also no longer care what is going on in her life. He then told me that he wouldn't get into detail but that she is constantly hitting "road blocks" in her life since she left me. I replied back with well that doesn't surprise me but again I don't want to know details.
> 
> Part of me feels a little bad that it sounds like she isn't doing so well and then at times part of me sort of likes hearing that. Normal?
> 
> Anyway, I felt I did a good job in not saying anything to them in regards to my ex or myself that would cause any drama. I was very generic with all that.


Always tell yourself this is what she wanted. Yes it's normal to feel bad and good hearing stuff like this. You did love and care about her at one point.

I was married longer than you and my crazy ex would use a bulldozer to build the roadblocks in her life and looking back I spent so much time and effort building her detours. I hate to admit it but when I hear stories about her now I still get the occasional thoughts of "how would I fix the dilemma", then I have to tell myself this is what she wanted and I've been relieved of this burden. 

These people will always find ways to build roadblocks, you will in time realize what a relief it is not to have to repair the road.....constantly.


----------



## Absurdist

farsidejunky said:


> You did well.
> 
> Two things:
> 
> 1. You know this, so this is a gentle reminder. She is no longer your problem. For emphasis, she is no longer your problem. And in case you forget, she is no longer your problem. I hope my murky communication methods are reaching you... lol
> 
> 2. You must address the need to "fix", either in counseling, or aggressive self improvement. Being a knight in shining armor will make you appear to broken people (and women, your future potential partners) like a 100 watt light in the middle of a swamp does to mosquitoes. They will flock to you. Address it now, before it becomes a problem again.


MrPack - I think what Farside is trying to say is that she ain't your problem no mo. 

But what you're feeling is normal.

As I called you in a post a long time ago, you were STBXMrsPack's "mop and bucket man". You cleaned up her messes. Now there is no MrPack to clean up after her any more. So she is hitting the road blocks. Oh well.... Not your concern.

Here is something else that is now normal about MrPack:

He has a new house
New furnishings
A brand new Jeep
A great job
A boss who likes him
A good raise (wowzers)
He goes to concerts
He's play in scrambles
He's getting out with friends
He's working out (you need to do this more)
He's helping others (your aunt and uncle's move)
Too Nice and Pluto love you 

Heck you're like those dudes in the Old Milwaukee commercials of the 90s.... "Man it doesn't get any better than this." Oh but it will. You and the chick magnet bulldog will find her sooner or later... unless she finds you first.


----------



## Marc878

Why give a sh!t she divorced you and walked out long before you gave up.

Don't waste any more time on her you've wasted enogh.


----------



## MrPack

Absurdist said:


> MrPack - I think what Farside is trying to say is that she ain't your problem no mo.
> 
> But what you're feeling is normal.
> 
> As I called you in a post a long time ago, you were STBXMrsPack's "mop and bucket man". You cleaned up her messes. Now there is no MrPack to clean up after her any more. So she is hitting the road blocks. Oh well.... Not your concern.
> 
> Here is something else that is now normal about MrPack:
> 
> He has a new house
> New furnishings
> A brand new Jeep
> A great job
> A boss who likes him
> A good raise (wowzers)
> He goes to concerts
> He's play in scrambles
> He's getting out with friends
> He's working out (you need to do this more)
> He's helping others (your aunt and uncle's move)
> Too Nice and Pluto love you
> 
> Heck you're like those dudes in the Old Milwaukee commercials of the 90s.... "Man it doesn't get any better than this." Oh but it will. You and the chick magnet bulldog will find her sooner or later... unless she finds you first.



Thank you sir. You are absolutely right I need to work out way more than I am. Oh and by the way my buddies and I finished 2nd in the tourney yesterday as well as each winning a little $20 side bet we made with my dads team. All in all a great time. They raised a lot of money for a memorial fund for a poor girl who died way to young. 

Right now I'm sitting outback with my bulldog staring at me, music playing and a little pre work week vodka soda. About to make some dinner/lunch for the week. Tonights menu is Italian chicken sausage pasta. 

I hear what you all are saying about how my STBXW's issues no longer concern me. I definitely realize that and it's getting easier and easier in this new life of mine. I still have a ways to go but I'm having more good days than bad.


----------



## MrPack

Struggling today. I have no idea why other than maybe overall stress but I just got hit with a big wave of anxiety. I haven't had an anxiety attack in a very long time but today I did and at work of all places. I left my desk and took a walk around outside and it helped a little. But all I want to do now is go home and be in my "comfort zone". I'm trying to push through this. Just makes me mad that I've been doing so well with my anxiety issues for a while now and then all the sudden out of nowhere it reappears. 

Anyway, I just wanted to vent...thought maybe it would help.


----------



## honcho

MrPack said:


> Struggling today. I have no idea why other than maybe overall stress but I just got hit with a big wave of anxiety. I haven't had an anxiety attack in a very long time but today I did and at work of all places. I left my desk and took a walk around outside and it helped a little. But all I want to do now is go home and be in my "comfort zone". I'm trying to push through this. Just makes me mad that I've been doing so well with my anxiety issues for a while now and then all the sudden out of nowhere it reappears.
> 
> Anyway, I just wanted to vent...thought maybe it would help.


These days will pop up when you least expect it and out of the blue. It's happens. When I would be at work and something like this would happen I used to change projects or work on different items. It would make my brain focus on something new and the anxiety would pass rather quickly.


----------



## MrPack

Luckily I was able to go home and finish some work here. My doctor prescribed me Xanax years ago to take anytime I'm having anxiety. I do not take them unless I feel I'm actually having an anxiety attack like today. As soon as I got home I took one and it seems to work but also makes me tired/groggy. This was maybe a harsh reminder that I really need to step it up in the working out part of my life to relieve this stress which will hopefully keep the anxiety issues away. I'm going to use the rest of this afternoon and evening to relax but tomorrow is a new day and I'm hoping to forget about today.


----------



## Absurdist

MrPack said:


> Luckily I was able to go home and finish some work here. My doctor prescribed me Xanax years ago to take anytime I'm having anxiety. I do not take them unless I feel I'm actually having an anxiety attack like today. As soon as I got home I took one and it seems to work but also makes me tired/groggy. This was maybe a harsh reminder that I really need to step it up in the working out part of my life to relieve this stress which will hopefully keep the anxiety issues away. I'm going to use the rest of this afternoon and evening to relax but tomorrow is a new day and I'm hoping to forget about today.


MrPack - as I understand, these anxiety/panic attacks have existed long before the issues with STBXW. What do you think triggers them?

There is a common denominator... you just haven't put it together. This is something you can unpack (no pun) with a really good IC.


----------



## MrPack

Absurdist said:


> MrPack - as I understand, these anxiety/panic attacks have existed long before the issues with STBXW. What do you think triggers them?
> 
> There is a common denominator... you just haven't put it together. This is something you can unpack (no pun) with a really good IC.


You are correct, I've been battling panic/anxiety issues for many years. I've yet to pin point what the real trigger(s) are. And you bring up a good point, more reason for me to find an IC. 

Work has been stressfull and the anticipation of the divorce papers arriving any day now...I dunno...

My buddy came over last night so we could plan a Chicago trip to visit my sister this summer. We had a few beers but certainly didn't get drunk. We talked about his dad who was just diagnosed with pancreatic cancer this week. I feel for him and his family and it made me think about "what ifs' in regards to my parents getting sick like that. But it's not like I was dwelling on that or anything.

The odd thing is during this past year going through what I went through with my STBXW the anxiety was a distant factor. Then all the sudden it reared its ugly head today.It's always been a very frustrating mystery to me.

I guess moral of the story is IC and more working out.


----------



## TooNice

It's true. You will still have the occasional day that punches you in the gut. You've said yourself they are happening with less frequency, which is a huge step. 

The important thing is that you are in a place where you can identify potential triggers and that you know what you can do about them. You've fought half the battle.  

Now, my friend... Go do it! 


~Just breathe.


----------



## MrPack

TooNice said:


> It's true. You will still have the occasional day that punches you in the gut. You've said yourself they are happening with less frequency, which is a huge step.
> 
> The important thing is that you are in a place where you can identify potential triggers and that you know what you can do about them. You've fought half the battle.
> 
> Now, my friend... Go do it!
> 
> 
> ~Just breathe.


Thank you TooNice, once again you've found the words to help me feel better. 

Today at work was a lot better. I still had some lingering uneasy feelings but definitely better than yesterday. I also signed up for an "unofficial" summer golf league with some buddies today. We'll play twice a month starting next week through September with a stay and play up north in the middle of summer that we call the "masters tourney". I did this same league a few year ago but of course it didn't fit into the ideal of my life at the time. Just this little thing made my day today. It does feel good to do and commit to little things like this without having to check with anyone or worrying about the what if's in regards to another person.


----------



## MrPack

Checked the mail today for the first time since Thursday. Looks like the divorce paper came in and I think it's final. It is a copy of the Decree of Dissolution of Marriage, it's stamped and signed by a county clerk and notarized. I have no clue regarding legal stuff so I'm assuming this is final now?

Not sure how to explain my current feelings...pretty mixed/weird.


----------



## farsidejunky

Mourn it one more time, Pack.

Then let it go.

God has given you a new beginning. A new beginning when you are still young.

Embrace it. Celebrate it. Cherish it. Then make damn sure you give thanks by seizing this opportunity you have been given. 

Do it right this time, Pack. Work on making yourself great. Become a man you can respect in all ways. 

Recognize red flags without looking the other way. When you see them, act. Know and enforce boundaries. Recognize what you want from your partner. 

You are blessed beyond what you can even fathom. Carry yourself as such.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## MrPack

farsidejunky said:


> Mourn it one more time, Pack.
> 
> Then let it go.
> 
> God has given you a new beginning. A new beginning when you are still young.
> 
> Embrace it. Celebrate it. Cherish it. Then make damn sure you give thanks by seizing this opportunity you have been given.
> 
> Do it right this time, Pack. Work on making yourself great. Become a man you can respect in all ways.
> 
> Recognize red flags without looking the other way. When you see them, act. Know and enforce boundaries. Recognize what you want from your partner.
> 
> You are blessed beyond what you can even fathom. Carry yourself as such.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Wow, thank you so much for the words of encouragement. I'll let this sink in and do my thing but I will not wallow in it. I have some errands to run today and some more unpacking of garage stuff then I'm headed to my parents house for a BBQ. Part of me wants to just lay on the couch today but I know that is a bad idea considering. I'll get out and do my thing today and do my best to move forward. 

Again, thank you.


----------



## honcho

MrPack said:


> Checked the mail today for the first time since Thursday. Looks like the divorce paper came in and I think it's final. It is a copy of the Decree of Dissolution of Marriage, it's stamped and signed by a county clerk and notarized. I have no clue regarding legal stuff so I'm assuming this is final now?
> 
> Not sure how to explain my current feelings...pretty mixed/weird.


All very anticlimactic isn't it, just an envelope in the mail one day. Read it over to check for errors and then shove in a desk drawer and forget about it. 

You will wallow a little and feel weird for a day or three, it's part of divorce fun. I know it doesn't feel like it but you are lucky it went as easy as it did, no needless drama, silly fighting over toasters and such. 

You have a new opportunity now, you have a better idea of what you want in life, sieze the opportunity.


----------



## MrPack

honcho said:


> All very anticlimactic isn't it, just an envelope in the mail one day. Read it over to check for errors and then shove in a desk drawer and forget about it.
> 
> You will wallow a little and feel weird for a day or three, it's part of divorce fun. I know it doesn't feel like it but you are lucky it went as easy as it did, no needless drama, silly fighting over toasters and such.
> 
> You have a new opportunity now, you have a better idea of what you want in life, sieze the opportunity.


Thank you, and yes...feels odd just opening the mail and there it is. And seeing her name next to mine as weird as that sounds was I guess tough, just seeing her name one last time on the same document as myself.


----------



## Marc878

It's important to stay no contact. It's over now. If I were you I'd block everything so you can close this chapter of your life.


----------



## Pluto2

Sending hugs.
When the marriage meant something to you, you mourn its end. It shows you respected the institution and the commitment you were making. This shows your emotional maturity and should never be disregarded.

When my final order was finally signed, I texted the ex to let him know it was done. At the time I thought it was a polite thing to do. I mean, wouldn't you want to know when something like a divorce had come to fruition. He responded with "MEH." I wasn't nearly as savvy a texter as he was and I had to ask one of my kids what MEH meant. Once they told me, it snapped me right out of that last little bit of co-dependency that was lingering around. So, absolutely go no contact. Nothing good will come of it. 

The weather is warming and the evenings are absolutely delicious. So plan some fun. 
(I here Belize is nice, just saying).


----------



## Marc878

Marc878 said:


> It's important to stay no contact. It's over now. If I were you I'd block everything so you can close this chapter of your life.


Block her family too. You don't need anything to interrupt you moving forward. Blood is thicker than water and they are nothing to you.


----------



## MrPack

Pluto2 said:


> Sending hugs.
> When the marriage meant something to you, you mourn its end. It shows you respected the institution and the commitment you were making. This shows your emotional maturity and should never be disregarded.
> 
> When my final order was finally signed, I texted the ex to let him know it was done. At the time I thought it was a polite thing to do. I mean, wouldn't you want to know when something like a divorce had come to fruition. He responded with "MEH." I wasn't nearly as savvy a texter as he was and I had to ask one of my kids what MEH meant. Once they told me, it snapped me right out of that last little bit of co-dependency that was lingering around. So, absolutely go no contact. Nothing good will come of it.
> 
> The weather is warming and the evenings are absolutely delicious. So plan some fun.
> (I here Belize is nice, just saying).


No contact for sure. I thought about texting her to see if she received the final papers and to let her know that I will be taking her off my health insurance. But then I realized she's not my worry anymore and that it would probably bring up old feelings even just texting her. Besides I told her a while back after I filed that as soon as it was all set in stone I would be taking her off my insurance.

Belize sounds very nice!!! I'll start researching.:grin2:


----------



## Absurdist

MrPack said:


> No contact for sure. I thought about texting her to see if she received the final papers and to let her know that I will be taking her off my health insurance. But then I realized she's not my worry anymore and that it would probably bring up old feelings even just texting her. Besides I told her a while back after I filed that as soon as it was all set in stone I would be taking her off my insurance.
> 
> Belize sounds very nice!!! I'll start researching.:grin2:


MrPack of 2015 would have texted or emailed an explanation of the health benefits and explained the options under COBRA etc.

MrPack of 2016 has graduated magna cum laude from the school of hard knocks.

Pluto is a wine drinker so you may need to take her to Tuscany. Too Nice is fine with Belize. :grin2:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MrPack

Came home from work this afternoon and did a little house cleaning. While blasting some country music I hear my phone ring, don't recognize the number. They leave a voicemail...it was discount tire. "Hey XMrsPack, your vehicle is ready to be picked up we are open until 6 tonight blah blah blah"

I wont lie, for a split second I thought I should shoot her text and let her know but then I started thinking nope not my problem. If she gets there too late and they are closed she can figure it out. 

I also talked to an HR rep today and officially took her off my health plan.


----------



## Marc878

Mr Pack has graduated!!!! No More Mr Nice Guy Pack !!!!!!!!!


----------



## Marc878

I'm gonna go out on a limb here. I think @TooNice needs a packer cheerleader uniform and @MrPack needs to take her to a game.


----------



## Marc878

Smell that??? 

Sniff, sniff?????

Romance?????!


----------



## Marc878

Whoa, likes are flyin and @TooNice cheeks are cherry red!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## MrPack

Marc878 said:


> Smell that???
> 
> Sniff, sniff?????
> 
> Romance?????!


Hahaha :grin2:. Small steps and I have a ways to go but I like seeing the changes in myself in regards to what the old me would have done or said in certain situations.


----------



## Marc878

MrPack said:


> Hahaha :grin2:. Small steps and I have a ways to go but I like seeing the changes in myself in regards to what the old me would have done or said in certain situations.


Yyyyyyeeeesssssss. You used to keep me PO'd


----------



## Marc878

You ever see the X out you nod your head only if she initiates first and just keep strutting by.


----------



## TooNice

Marc878 said:


> Whoa, likes are flyin and @TooNice cheeks are cherry red!!!!!!!!!!


 @Marc878, how did you know I blush easily?


----------



## Marc878

TooNice said:


> @Marc878, how did you know I blush easily?


I have special powers.

I bet I was right, huh!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Chuck71

Pack-man.... ya made it! Yeah you stumbled a bit.... we all do.

So many things I could relate to in your journey..... wanting kids.

I almost D my XW back in '02... hindsight wished I had. Not that

we didn't have great times after.... I would be around your current

age if I had. I want kids... I used to love dating older women (XW was

seven years older) but now..... gotsta change that gameplan. 

You are in such a great position to capture what you want..... 

George Lucas was in his late 60s when he had his first child.

Whatever Jim Jones quackery BS medical degree she thinks she

will receive will be recognized in developed nations about like a degree 

in ceramics. Nothing like going to Africa and "saving the world" ....

when most nations have coup d'é·tats every five years. Most places

have serious issues with sanitation.... want that? She would have 

dragged a child right along with her in those conditions. Women 

like her shouldn't have kids.... too selfish. You dodged a bullet.

Don't ever give up on your dream to have kids.... if someone says

you're too old... notice most who say that had five by the age of 25

and regret it.


----------



## MrPack

Chuck71 said:


> Pack-man.... ya made it! Yeah you stumbled a bit.... we all do.
> 
> So many things I could relate to in your journey..... wanting kids.
> 
> I almost D my XW back in '02... hindsight wished I had. Not that
> 
> we didn't have great times after.... I would be around your current
> 
> age if I had. I want kids... I used to love dating older women (XW was
> 
> seven years older) but now..... gotsta change that gameplan.
> 
> You are in such a great position to capture what you want.....
> 
> George Lucas was in his late 60s when he had his first child.
> 
> Whatever Jim Jones quackery BS medical degree she thinks she
> 
> will receive will be recognized in developed nations about like a degree
> 
> in ceramics. Nothing like going to Africa and "saving the world" ....
> 
> when most nations have coup d'é·tats every five years. Most places
> 
> have serious issues with sanitation.... want that? She would have
> 
> dragged a child right along with her in those conditions. Women
> 
> like her shouldn't have kids.... too selfish. You dodged a bullet.
> 
> Don't ever give up on your dream to have kids.... if someone says
> 
> you're too old... notice most who say that had five by the age of 25
> 
> and regret it.


Thank you sir. I sill have a strong desire to someday have a family of my own but like you said I really did dodge a bullet with this divorce. Yes, it still hurts at times but I've had many people tell me pretty much what you just did. I recently ran into a mutual friend of hers and she told me that XMrsPack plans on heading to Egypt in 2018 after she graduates, I'm guessing it's just a trip but I wouldn't put it past her if she thinks it'll turn into some sort of place for her to practice "medicine". The point of me bringing that up is that it made me realize and made me thankful that I wont have to deal with that BS anymore. I have a stable and pretty good career, I have a GREAT group of friends and even better family. What I want and what I've wanted from day one hasn't changed. I'm really hoping I'll reach the point where I achieve what I want in life. 

Up until about a month ago I didn't see any positives in terms of where I am and how hard I worked career wise. My mindset was that I worked my A$$ off for her and our potential family. Once that was out of the picture it was hard to see the positives. Now I can finally see financially and pride wise that my hard work paid off and means something even though my marriage is over. 

As for the years I "wasted" with her....that's still something I need help with. I know it made me stronger but to be honest it still feels like wasted years at times. 

But again...thank you sir for your comment and kind words.


----------



## Marc878

Chalk it up to wisdom learned. Thankfully you came out much, much better than most. Look around.


----------



## TooNice

MrPack said:


> I have a stable and pretty good career, I have a GREAT group of friends and even better family. What I want and what I've wanted from day one hasn't changed. I'm really hoping I'll reach the point where I achieve what I want in life.
> 
> Up until about a month ago I didn't see any positives in terms of where I am and how hard I worked career wise. My mindset was that I worked my A$$ off for her and our potential family. Once that was out of the picture it was hard to see the positives. Now I can finally see financially and pride wise that my hard work paid off and means something even though my marriage is over.


Best MrPack post yet. Love this.


----------



## MrPack

Marc878 said:


> Chalk it up to wisdom learned. Thankfully you came out much, much better than most. Look around.


Thank you sir


----------



## MrPack

TooNice said:


> Best MrPack post yet. Love this.


As always thank you :grin2:


----------



## Marc878

TooNice said:


> Best MrPack post yet. Love this.


:grin2::grin2::grin2::grin2::grin2::grin2::wink2:


----------



## honcho

MrPack said:


> Thank you sir. I sill have a strong desire to someday have a family of my own but like you said I really did dodge a bullet with this divorce. Yes, it still hurts at times but I've had many people tell me pretty much what you just did. I recently ran into a mutual friend of hers and she told me that XMrsPack plans on heading to Egypt in 2018 after she graduates, I'm guessing it's just a trip but I wouldn't put it past her if she thinks it'll turn into some sort of place for her to practice "medicine". The point of me bringing that up is that it made me realize and made me thankful that I wont have to deal with that BS anymore. I have a stable and pretty good career, I have a GREAT group of friends and even better family. What I want and what I've wanted from day one hasn't changed. I'm really hoping I'll reach the point where I achieve what I want in life.
> 
> Up until about a month ago I didn't see any positives in terms of where I am and how hard I worked career wise. My mindset was that I worked my A$$ off for her and our potential family. Once that was out of the picture it was hard to see the positives. Now I can finally see financially and pride wise that my hard work paid off and means something even though my marriage is over.
> 
> As for the years I "wasted" with her....that's still something I need help with. I know it made me stronger but to be honest it still feels like wasted years at times.
> 
> But again...thank you sir for your comment and kind words.


The time wasn't wasted. You have learned a great deal from the experience and you have a better vision of what you want in the future and have a good foothold in the present to make a future you want happen.

Your ex has "dreams" and a future that will most likely never happen.


----------



## Chuck71

Sir? Sir? Hey now damn it.... I ain't that old LOL! My final was in

early 2013. It did not "hurt" she was gone.... I just "longed" for the 

yesteryear. I sometimes still miss what could've / should've been.

XW is the only one of my 4 loves that really had the unspoken

language with me.... we could look and knew what the other was 

thinking. Had you and her had kids.... damn... she would run you to

court for more CS everytime you received any type of raise. My 2nd 

love's mom was that way..... and 2nd love followed right in her footsteps.

Egypt huh.... hmmm... recent Egyptian history indicates.... yeah, civil war.

Nothing like washing at the edge of the Nile and an RPG lands beside you.

Most times.... young man lives with parents, stays at dorm or lives at home

through college, maybe live with a few guy friends a year / two after college

and.... moves in with his g/f and they M. You as with me... after D.... you now

live solo..... for the first time ever (had short post-D live in but she was booted

in late '14). It's weird living alone... there are good and bad points to living alone.

A relative who was born during WW1 (female) always said it was not healthy for

a man to live alone..... it leads to temptation. In many ways... she had a valid point.

I'm kinda sure she meant drinking and loose women. My mother asked me last summer

before she got sick.... why don't you have a live-in yet. Like many... I would rather be 

alone than be in a dead end LTR. "Bandaged women" can spot a KISA / Mr.NiceGuy

a mile away. Fast forward a few years... back in the same schit hole. Don't want

that.... you can see guys on TAM who do that..... their stories are pitiful.

As for wasted years... I saw that way at first. My XW taught me a great deal of things.

Her mother's death was the major factor in our M crumbling. It was already shaky by then.

The only way I could argue mine was wasted was I wasted from age 25-40 with her... prime

years for children. She had female issues after her first child.

Don't rush into anything.... just explore new things and watch out for the red flags.

If you stick around TAM long enough you will learn to spot them in a heartbeat.


----------



## Pluto2

TooNice said:


> Best MrPack post yet. Love this.


QFT!


----------



## MrPack

Its funny how I can go from having a great week to all the sudden getting myself into a funk. I've been struggling the past couple days. Missing the companionship of a women the most. I have a full list of things I need/want to get done today then bbq with my parents this afternoon. I just need to stay away from my couch, it's tempting to just sit there all day today while watching golf but I know that will just keep me in this funk. 

It's weird, just a couple days ago I was feeling great about where I'm at, but it started yesterday just sort of feeling down and not good about my current position in life. 

That's my Sunday rant. I hope you all had a great weekend.


----------



## TooNice

MrPack said:


> Its funny how I can go from having a great week to all the sudden getting myself into a funk. I've been struggling the past couple days. Missing the companionship of a women the most. I have a full list of things I need/want to get done today then bbq with my parents this afternoon. I just need to stay away from my couch, it's tempting to just sit there all day today while watching golf but I know that will just keep me in this funk.
> 
> It's weird, just a couple days ago I was feeling great about where I'm at, but it started yesterday just sort of feeling down and not good about my current position in life.
> 
> That's my Sunday rant. I hope you all had a great weekend.


Triggers. We all have our triggers. It's great to be a person who can recognize that, and know what will work for YOU to fight it. It's a life skill many people don't have, and one that will serve you extremely well through this period in your life. Even with the occasional funk, your posts are overwhelmingly more positive, and I know that will continue for you!


----------



## Marc878

TooNice said:


> Triggers. We all have our triggers. It's great to be a person who can recognize that, and know what will work for YOU to fight it. It's a life skill many people don't have, and one that will serve you extremely well through this period in your life. Even with the occasional funk, your posts are overwhelmingly more positive, and I know that will continue for you!


Sniff, sniff

Does anyone smell what I'm smelling?

Love Is In the Air!!!!!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=58T0NlhNweA


----------



## Chuck71

Gotsta hand it to ya.... if you can watch golf all day..... you have more concentration than me. I'd have to

burn a couple to watch golf. You will get those moments.... you don't miss "her" you miss the closeness,

the companionship, the togetherness. Your life was in more ways... mapped out.... on any given Saturday

when both of you were off.... you knew you were going to do something... not sure what but you

knew it was to be done together. Now... you're alone and sometimes have no freaking clue

what you will be doing the next Saturday and with who.

You miss having a female "partner in crime" NOT your XW. Been there.... trust me.


----------



## MrPack

Chuck71 said:


> Gotsta hand it to ya.... if you can watch golf all day..... you have more concentration than me. I'd have to
> 
> burn a couple to watch golf. You will get those moments.... you don't miss "her" you miss the closeness,
> 
> the companionship, the togetherness. Your life was in more ways... mapped out.... on any given Saturday
> 
> when both of you were off.... you knew you were going to do something... not sure what but you
> 
> knew it was to be done together. Now... you're alone and sometimes have no freaking clue
> 
> what you will be doing the next Saturday and with who.
> 
> You miss having a female "partner in crime" NOT your XW. Been there.... trust me.


Exactly.....


----------



## Absurdist

MrPack said:


> Exactly.....



MrPack - you know that I'm your biggest cheerleader... and your biggest azz kicker.

As your cheerleader... we all reflect. We all ponder about how things should have been... what we could have done. what we should not have done. how life could have been different... only if....

As you know, my Dad died a few months ago. One of the last conversations we had I asked him "What would you have done differently with your life?" He said he would have taken more chances. He would have risked more.

As your self-appointed azz kicker - reflect? Yes. But get up off your butt and start taking risks. Do something different. DON'T BE AFRAID TO FAIL! You will not find your next SO laying on the sofa watching the golf channel.

YOU CAN DO THIS. MAKE YOURSELF DO IT.


----------



## Absurdist

And here's more MrPack. Among my kids are two sons. One is so good looking he can get any woman he wants just on looks alone. Other son is a nerd. He'd tell you he was a nerd. But he's a nerd with supreme confidence in himself. Nerd son joined a yoga class. He was the only guy in the class. "Am I doing this right?" "Gosh, this is hard work"... He had girls fussing all over him. He took one girl out and two set him up with their roommates... But he's a nerd... a very clever one.

DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT I'M SAYING MrPACK?

Get yourself out there. Now!


----------



## Chuck71

Absurdist said:


> MrPack - you know that I'm your biggest cheerleader... and your biggest azz kicker.
> 
> As your cheerleader... we all reflect. We all ponder about how things should have been... what we could have done. what we should not have done. how life could have been different... only if....
> 
> As you know, my Dad died a few months ago. One of the last conversations we had I asked him "What would you have done differently with your life?" He said he would have taken more chances. He would have risked more.
> 
> As your self-appointed azz kicker - reflect? Yes. But get up off your butt and start taking risks. Do something different. DON'T BE AFRAID TO FAIL! You will not find your next SO laying on the sofa watching the golf channel.
> 
> YOU CAN DO THIS. MAKE YOURSELF DO IT.


Agree 110%. Some of my greatest achievements have came.... after my greatest failures.

No one would truly appreciate having "heaven on Earth" unless they dipped their toes into "hell on Earth"

The '92 Presidential candidate, Ross Perot... failed 77 times in his "invention" ... 78th.. well he is a 

billionaire now. Looking back... reflecting... God knows I am bad at it but... it did make for a number 

of novels. If you unbiaedly look inside your soul.... it is the purest form of psychotherapy.


----------



## Chuck71

Dog parks
Volunteer at animal shelter
Book stores
Meals on Wheels (delivering food to poor)
Mow elderly people's yard (warning... by accepting no money you usually get home cooked cookies / meals... you WILL gain weight, I did)


----------



## MrPack

Thanks Guys. I'm doing a little better so far this week but still not 100%. I should be excited, I have a trip with two of my buddies to visit my sister in Chicago next week. Half the time I'm very excited the other half I'm feel a little blah about it. My general anxiety has been rearing its ugly head recently and I find myself thinking about how $hitty that would be to be in Chicago with my buddies and my sister and struggling with my anxiety. Or even better...being on the airplane and having my anxiety kick in. 

I'm just trying to only think of the positives about the trip which there are a lot of them! She lives in the city, you can see lake Michigan from her 24th floor balcony. It's bound to be a GREAT trip. 

Positive MrPack is hiding and I'm ready for him to come out. Really working on that this week. I worked out a couple days in a row, today I have a buddy coming over after work to watch the NBA draft lottery then the cavs/raptors game. Might throw some steak on the grill. I'm just going to try and keep myself busy everyday after work. I cant let myself just sit around on my A$$ after work watching TV. 

Thank you Absurdist and Chuck71.


----------



## Chuck71

Absurdist is a very wise man...... he reminds me a bit of my pop. Almost same age.

Chicago........ two words.... Wrigley Field! After the 1994 strike I have never attended a major league

game since I feel owners / players are two whiney a$$es fighting over green paper and we the fans, end up

paying the price. BUT I have two places, Wrigley and Fenway... for the stadium, not the players, I want to visit.

You were used to being held prisoner in your own M. Now you're free. Google what people recently released

from prison do after release. They go into a Wal-Mart and see 83 choices for chips when.... for years

they had NO choice, one chip is it. They crack.... they cry.... they can't make choices on their own.

I can't count how many I met in the WM parking lot after their break.

You were just set free but.... you still don't know WTF to do. 110% understandable.....


----------



## MrPack

Chuck71 said:


> Absurdist is a very wise man...... he reminds me a bit of my pop. Almost same age.
> 
> Chicago........ two words.... Wrigley Field! After the 1994 strike I have never attended a major league
> 
> game since I feel owners / players are two whiney a$$es fighting over green paper and we the fans, end up
> 
> paying the price. BUT I have two places, Wrigley and Fenway... for the stadium, not the players, I want to visit.
> 
> You were used to being held prisoner in your own M. Now you're free. Google what people recently released
> 
> from prison do after release. They go into a Wal-Mart and see 83 choices for chips when.... for years
> 
> they had NO choice, one chip is it. They crack.... they cry.... they can't make choices on their own.
> 
> I can't count how many I met in the WM parking lot after their break.
> 
> You were just set free but.... you still don't know WTF to do. 110% understandable.....


We are going to a Cubs game at Wrigley field that Saturday. I'm not a big baseball fan at all but like you said just the experience of being at that stadium will be enough.

Interesting what you said about prisoners being released not knowing how to make choices. I do find myself feeling weird sometimes with the fact that I basically can do WHATEVER I want now. I don't have a significant other to check in with. With that said that sort of falls into the same category of me feeling alone lately. I miss having someone there no matter what when I need to vent/talk or just share my feelings/experiences during my everyday life. As menial as that may seem it is something I'm truly struggling with right now.


----------



## TooNice

When I first moved out, I had to have a girlfriend go shopping with me for things for my house. It sounds funny, and I was able to make light of it even then, but there was one item in particular that got me. I was paralyzed about buying a shower curtain. A shower curtain. There were so many, and whatever I chose would set the whole tone of my bathroom. It was so overwhelming, I didn't know how to handle it. Mind you, I came from a home that had almost nothing on the walls because it wasn't worth trying to agree on something. That fresh slate was just too much for me. 

Wanting to have someone to share your day to day life with is not menial in the least. It's human nature. You will have that again, and appreciate it all the more when you do!



And as aside, if you baseball/stadium fans have not been to Miller Park, it is a beauty!


----------



## Chuck71

TooNice said:


> When I first moved out, I had to have a girlfriend go shopping with me for things for my house. It sounds funny, and I was able to make light of it even then, but there was one item in particular that got me. I was paralyzed about buying a shower curtain. A shower curtain. There were so many, and whatever I chose would set the whole tone of my bathroom. It was so overwhelming, I didn't know how to handle it. Mind you, I came from a home that had almost nothing on the walls because it wasn't worth trying to agree on something. That fresh slate was just too much for me.
> 
> Wanting to have someone to share your day to day life with is not menial in the least. It's human nature. You will have that again, and appreciate it all the more when you do!
> 
> 
> 
> And as aside, if you baseball/stadium fans have not been to Miller Park, it is a beauty!


What got me was shopping for stuff at the store. I did most of the shopping on Fridays being my day ended at 11am. The XW would prep the list though. She used "powdered cream... Creamate I think" and aspertaine (sp) ... some type of sugar for her coffee. Those were always on the list.... we's liked our coffee. I just used milk in mine.

First time I went to buy things... for me.... yes I unconsciously walked the aisle and grabbed those two. Force of habit... took a few aisles for me to think "WTF... I don't use that." 

Plus when you're single, every damn person you meet... with SO and smiling like they won the lottery. Here you are by yourself feeling like a freaking leper. Of course that is a falsehood but right after or during a D.... you see things much different.


Pac-Man......... you've been alone much longer than you realize. You were "together but alone," but you still had the fluidity.... someone to call your own, even though it's (M) going in the crapper. Even though things were shaky... you still had to check-in with someone and vice versa.

Of course.... you want that again... but even if you found someone that blew your socks off tomorrow... those things don't happen overnight. They may never happen. Ever heard where someone loves someone else but they can't get that feeling (the feelings you are missing) .... happens all the time. Sad though... you can't truly realize this until a year or two in... after you are somewhat invested.... or one just ignores it and gets M. Very often... years later, they end up on a board like this.....


----------



## turnera

MrPack said:


> We are going to a Cubs game at Wrigley field that Saturday. I'm not a big baseball fan at all but like you said just the experience of being at that stadium will be enough.
> 
> Interesting what you said about prisoners being released not knowing how to make choices. I do find myself feeling weird sometimes with the fact that I basically can do WHATEVER I want now. I don't have a significant other to check in with. With that said that sort of falls into the same category of me feeling alone lately. I miss having someone there no matter what when I need to vent/talk or just share my feelings/experiences during my everyday life. As menial as that may seem it is something I'm truly struggling with right now.


From the day I met my H, I let him make all the decisions. He wanted to, I felt inadequate, so I let him run with it. Fast forward 11 years, and I had given up my friends to avoid his dissatisfaction; stopped hanging out with my family to avoid his *****ing; spent every spare minute with him because that's the way he wanted it. 

So I went on a business trip, my first after 10 years of marriage. I went on the plane, that's what you're supposed to do. I took a cab to the hotel, that's what you're supposed to do. I checked in and went to my room, like you're supposed to do.

And then I got stuck. I stood there in my hotel room, alone for the first time in my life, with the whole world at my feet...and I froze. 

How was I supposed to know what *I *wanted? What if my H would judge me poorly for it? What if I looked like a fool? What do 'real' adults do on business trips? 

I went back to DC several times to finish up that job, and each time I felt a little stronger, a little prouder of myself, a little more sure that I could make decisions as well as anyone else, and not be a fraud.

That was the turning point in my life. It's when I started questioning the life I'd allowed my spouse to dictate for me.


----------



## honcho

MrPack said:


> We are going to a Cubs game at Wrigley field that Saturday. I'm not a big baseball fan at all but like you said just the experience of being at that stadium will be enough.
> 
> Interesting what you said about prisoners being released not knowing how to make choices. I do find myself feeling weird sometimes with the fact that I basically can do WHATEVER I want now. I don't have a significant other to check in with. With that saida that sort of falls into the same category of me feeling alone lately. I miss having someone there no matter what when I need to vent/talk or just share my feelings/experiences during my everyday life. As menial as that may seem it is something I'm truly struggling with right now.


You'll have fun in chicago. My crazy ex's best friend used to have an apartment overlooking navy pier and the lake. It was always fun going to the big city for a wild weekend. Her friend was one of those life of the party people. For 2 days she was tons of fun and partying, by day 3 she was driving you nuts with all her energy and wanting to party. 

You developed an anxiety the last time you flew somewhere too if I remember correctly. 

Single life from married life has an adjustment period and it does take a while to adjust. It becomes 2nd nature to think in terms of having someone else in your life. 

I did most of the shopping while "happily married" and all the cooking too. For months I'd be subconsciously grabbing items on sale that didn't want but I used to buy for my ex. I wasn't even thinking about it till I'd be check out lane wondering why I'm buying the stuff. I was constantly cooking for two and my fridge would be full of leftovers and my dogs were eating like kings haha!


----------



## MrPack

TooNice said:


> When I first moved out, I had to have a girlfriend go shopping with me for things for my house. It sounds funny, and I was able to make light of it even then, but there was one item in particular that got me. I was paralyzed about buying a shower curtain. A shower curtain. There were so many, and whatever I chose would set the whole tone of my bathroom. It was so overwhelming, I didn't know how to handle it. Mind you, I came from a home that had almost nothing on the walls because it wasn't worth trying to agree on something. That fresh slate was just too much for me.
> 
> Wanting to have someone to share your day to day life with is not menial in the least. It's human nature. You will have that again, and appreciate it all the more when you do!
> 
> 
> 
> And as aside, if you baseball/stadium fans have not been to Miller Park, it is a beauty!



I've been to Miller park a few times. It is a beauty!


----------



## MrPack

Had a great day today...golfed with some buddies, early dinner/happy hour drinks and wings. Just got home to relax for the evening. I open my laptop, jump to facebook and see that XMrsPack went up north today and hiked a trail/spot that used to be "our spot". Literally its hike that took a lot of convincing from me at first to get her to finish due to the height at the end. So it turned out to be a special spot for us. I am no longer friends with her on FB but still friends with a few of her cousins that were and have been good to me through our mess. Well that's who she was with today. Kind of a kick in the gut seeing a photo her cousin posted with her at "our" old spot, a spot that we frequented. I know it's my own fault for still being friends with some of her family members on FB but Jesus why am I still having these feelings? I DO NOT miss HER, I miss the aspect of having a sidekick/women on my side, sharing experiences with a women. It's not a HUGE deal but I'm pissed that I am even somewhat affected by that photo. 

It's weird, I talked to an old friend to while golfing after he asked how I've been doing, I explained that I'm good and things are going great. BUT I've really been in a rut the past week or so, missing the companionship and it pisses me off. I know I'm still in the process stage but I'm slaking lately. I feel like I should be further along by now. Is this normal? It's been a little over a year since the separation started, am I behind progress wise?


----------



## MrPack

about a year since separation and about a month since the divorce has been final. Cant leave that out.


----------



## TooNice

Yes, it's normal. And it fades. And actually, I think it's healthy that it pisses you off to have been affected by it. That's progress, friend. You may want to block your ex, too-it could minimize the stuff you see even more.

On a brighter note, yay for having a great day with friends! 


~Just breathe.


----------



## TooNice

MrPack said:


> about a year since separation and about a month since the divorce has been final. Cant leave that out.




Yep. I maintain that I think it's normal and you are doing just fine. Even on days you don't feel that way!


----------



## honcho

MrPack said:


> about a year since separation and about a month since the divorce has been final. Cant leave that out.


In my opinion and it happened to me, getting the final paperwork sets a person back quite a bit. Nothing really changes from separation and it's just a piece of paper but for whatever reason, maybe the finality of it all it pushes you backwards in healing temporarily. 

I've never figured out the obsession of FB. That being said a couple years ago I did set up an account, was trying to find some old friends that I've lost touch with. Long story short, I stumble upon a guy I know, click on his profile and low and behold I see the crazy ex in the picture around a bonfire with the new Mr perfect. Don't think I've been on fb again.


----------



## MrPack

Thanks guys...and gals "TooNice" . I know it's a process and time heals but it just pissed me off that I got worked up tonight. Thanks for accepting my rambling post and even more for the words. I keep telling myself that it could be way worse and that I am improving even though I'm still having set backs like tonight.

One. step. at. a. time.


----------



## Chuck71

Pack Man..... "Is it Normal to Fell this Way" .... that was the name of my first real thread here. You did / will, as I was..resemble a junkie. We are so hollowed out on the inside. You were addicted to her. Now the "drug" is gone. Most junkies turn to another drugs (google crack cocaine). In this case... many people dive right back into the market in search of spouse #2. All they do is intensify and delay the pain.

You are facing yours head on. You already know you can live without her. You are realizing you can be happy without her. There is not a thing wrong with "dating," as long as it is just that... dating. If you date a few times... you owe the other person "nothing"... just your friendship and kindness. Most older TAM vets recommend dating as many people as possible. You have to find out exactly what you are looking for. Chances are... you don't want a carbon copy of your XW but.... I bet she had a few qualities you would like for the next female to have. My XW had quite a few good qualities I always look for when I am dating.

There was an ex-TAM guy (he will be back, bet the farm) who I took under my wing a bit over a year ago. You may have heard the term "safe man." He just broke-up with his g/f who he started seeing not too long after his D. VMs in tears, long back chat messages, etc. He listened, read, evaluated.... started dating again. Good first few dates... then his Co-D / Mr. NiceGuy / doormat ghosts emerged. The woman appeared to have her schit together and she blew him off quite fast. 

He returned "devestated" and we went over the basics again. He dated a few, saw the red flags and moved along. Things were looking good for him. New gal came along, dated about a month... "same 'ol same 'ol" .... she ran him off, repeat of the girl in above paragraph. "Chuck... I'm just going to work on myself, my kids for awhile." Still spoke but it dropped off significantly. 

I checked his FB.... lo and behold.... new relationship. Pics / tags / shares .... "the greatest couple in America." I congratulated him and said keep in touch. Not a peep. Well.... that should change. He and her like to "have it out" on FB for all their friends to see. I give it until this summer. Until this guy works on himself... he will be in this cycle forever.

As for FB.... not my thing. I have an account but 99% of my actions are done in back chat. I rarely post...... when I do, quotes, sports related stuff, music links, maybe a meme every couple months. It's too "high schoolish," I actually have heard -I'm not liking their post because they didn't like my post of me and family at Dollywood- Someone asked me once why I don't get many likes...... "I don't give likes... have more constructive things to do with my time" -Does it bother you- "About as much as how many people visit South Sandwich Islands"

Pack Man.... you have family. I envy you there, I don't. Get with your dad and do a DIY project, have your mom teach you how to cook a few things. Get involved with your siblings children (if any) or you aunt / uncle's kids. Play catch, teach a kid to throw a fastball, shoot a basket, how to fish. A guy who spends a lot of time with family and bonds with their kids is something many females that want children look for in a guy.


----------



## MrPack

Heading out tomorrow morning with my buddies to Chicago. Weather doesn't look too pleasant but oh well. It's a vacation.


----------



## Chuck71

Just in case........

C.C.D.O.C. Bonding


----------



## MrPack

Home sweet home. Got back early evening yesterday. What a trip, had a great time with my buddies and my sister. I was pretty proud of myself, yes I drank a lot while we were there and am currently in recovery mode but I didn't allow myself to get hammered like I wouild have a few years ago. 

Friday we rented bikes and rode to the Lincoln Park Zoo, then explored the many spots for drinks and food. Went up to the top of the Han**** building for some drinks, had dinner at Lou Malnati's pizza, then ended the night at a small piano bar.

Saturday was all about the cubs game. Got to wrigleyville 3 hours before the game started. Had some food and lots of beers, went to the game until about the 7th inning then back to a couple bars in wriggleyville to watch some live music.

Talk to a few ladies while out but nothing serious. If anything good practice I guess??


----------



## Chuck71

Just curious..... why would you have gotten schit hammered a few years ago? Was there something

that drove you to that excess?


----------



## MrPack

Chuck71 said:


> Just curious..... why would you have gotten schit hammered a few years ago? Was there something
> 
> that drove you to that excess?


More of an age thing I guess. My buddies and I love to have our drinks, just seems like recently we are "growing up" or at least realize that there isn't a reason to get absolutely schit housed. Also, a few years ago I was still married and wasn't ever given many chances to let loose with my budddies so in that situation I probably would have gone crazy. 

Maybe the fact that I really wasn't happy with my life a few years ago could also be a reason why I was drinking more and was especially drinking in excess more than I do now.


----------



## Chuck71

Did your drinking increase when she was away a lot studying to become a witch doctor?


----------



## MrPack

Chuck71 said:


> Did your drinking increase when she was away a lot studying to become a witch doctor?


I'd say that it increased as far as how often I drank. She didn't like it but then when she was "free" to hangout she would have no problem drinking in excess or wanting to stay out later that I did. It was always like she was pisssed off when I was having a good time or relaxing when she had her study groups/sessions. She chose that path not me. I did all the house work, cooked for her, paid the bills...

But that doesn't matter anymore.


----------



## ReturntoZero

MrPack said:


> More of an age thing I guess. My buddies and I love to have our drinks, just seems like recently we are "growing up" or at least realize that there isn't a reason to get absolutely schit housed. Also, a few years ago I was still married and wasn't ever given many chances to let loose with my budddies so in that situation I probably would have gone crazy.
> 
> Maybe the fact that I really wasn't happy with my life a few years ago could also be a reason why I was drinking more and was especially drinking in excess more than I do now.


Self soothing - the easy way.


----------



## Marc878

MrPack said:


> I'd say that it increased as far as how often I drank. She didn't like it but then when she was "free" to hangout she would have no problem drinking in excess or wanting to stay out later that I did. It was always like she was pisssed off when I was having a good time or relaxing when she had her study groups/sessions. She chose that path not me. *I d all the house work, cooked for her, paid the bills...*
> 
> But that doesn't matter anymore.


You did to much. In your next realationship you need to watch that. You can become taken for granted and then no respect sets in. Make sure it's a 50/50 split. If you haven't download and read "No More Mr Nice Guy".


----------



## MrPack

Feeling pretty good right now. Just made plans to head up north for fathers day weekend with my dad, uncles and a couple cousins for a guys weekend of golf. We are renting a big cabin. Also in the planning stage of our annual summer Mexico trip. This year a few of my buddies are tagging along. Work has been hell this week but I've really been trying to leave the stress at work and not let it ruin my evenings. Worked out last night, today after work I cleaned the house and I'm about to grill some steaks, I'm done coming home after work and sitting on the couch all night.

I really do enjoy the good day's/nights I have in my new place but I also feel a little piece is missing. Hopefully that piece will be filled at some point.

Hope your all having a good week.


----------



## Chuck71

7-8 guys in a cabin. Want that bondsman link again? *smile*

Have a good trip!


----------



## Marc878

MrPack said:


> Feeling pretty good right now. Just made plans to head up north for fathers day weekend with my dad, uncles and a couple cousins for a guys weekend of golf. We are renting a big cabin.


Don't play in the fire if you have one. 

You'll pee the bed! >


----------



## MrPack

So there's this girl that has been all over my instagram recently, commenting and liking pictures from weeks ago so obviously she's been scrolling through my profile. I know her through mutual friends. Haven't seen her in years and to tell you the truth I'm not all that attracted to her but part of me is curious. Maybe I should spark something up to at least hangout with her and get my feet wet so to speak. I feel so dumb with this whole dating thing, man I have no clue what I'm doing it's been so long. 

What do you all think? I'm assuming she must have some interest or why would she be sending signals on instagram and sending me private messages right? I feel like a an A$$ saying that I'm not all that attracted to her physically but who knows. Should I ignore it ask her to hangout sometime?


----------



## farsidejunky

If she is not attractive, what is sparking the interest?

Curiosity?

Is the satisfying that curiosity worth the headache of potential coyote arm?

Only you can answer these questions.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Chuck71

Get together with her.... IF you want. Set NO expectations. Hang out, do things you would with a

girl you just met. Sometimes you can have no attraction to someone but have a blast 

doing things with them. Same as she could be a bombshell but also a fickle prude.

Know why you feel weird? When's the last time you went out with someone who wasn't a witch 

doctor? I went out with several before I met post-D g/f. From August '97 to November '12.... it was

my XW. Saying I was out of practice was an understatement. Saying I was very nervous... HUGE 

understatement. I let the female know.... in process of D, not looking to hook-up or promise 

anything but good company and fine chat. We went out twice..... no sex, no kisses... peck on cheek n hugs.

Take your time, get your feet wet. Just initiate your boundaries beforehand.

Some "new" may make you feel a lot better..... could also set you back. Only you know....


----------



## MrPack

farsidejunky said:


> If she is not attractive, what is sparking the interest?
> 
> Curiosity?
> 
> Is the satisfying that curiosity worth the headache of potential coyote arm?
> 
> Only you can answer these questions.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


I guess it is the curiosity, I don't want to make it sound like she's hideous because she's not and I don't want to sound like "that guy" but years ago when she was intertwined with our then mutual friends I never really paid much attention to her. I think maybe I'll poke around with her on social media for a bit to see what signals she sends if any. 

Maybe I'm just trying to fill the hole I have of companionship....??


----------



## Absurdist

farsidejunky said:


> If she is not attractive, what is sparking the interest?
> 
> Curiosity?
> 
> Is the satisfying that curiosity worth the headache of potential *coyote arm*?
> 
> Only you can answer these questions.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk



I confess that I had to google that.

Gulp.

As Farside says, only you can answer that.:scratchhead:


----------



## MrPack

Chuck71 said:


> Get together with her.... IF you want. Set NO expectations. Hang out, do things you would with a
> 
> girl you just met. Sometimes you can have no attraction to someone but have a blast
> 
> doing things with them. Same as she could be a bombshell but also a fickle prude.
> 
> Know why you feel weird? When's the last time you went out with someone who wasn't a witch
> 
> doctor? I went out with several before I met post-D g/f. From August '97 to November '12.... it was
> 
> my XW. Saying I was out of practice was an understatement. Saying I was very nervous... HUGE
> 
> understatement. I let the female know.... in process of D, not looking to hook-up or promise
> 
> anything but good company and fine chat. We went out twice..... no sex, no kisses... peck on cheek n hugs.
> 
> Take your time, get your feet wet. Just initiate your boundaries beforehand.
> 
> Some "new" may make you feel a lot better..... could also set you back. Only you know....


The idea of just "hanging out" is sort of where my head is at with this. Just to get myself back out there spending time with a woman. No expectations.


----------



## MrPack

Yea I had to google Coyote Arm as well hahaha. Don't want that!


----------



## Absurdist

MrPack said:


> The idea of just "hanging out" is sort of where my head is at with this. Just to get myself back out there spending time with a woman. No expectations.


Then do it with no expectations other that having fun with someone.

Suggest you get opinions from Pluto and Too Nice. You need some female feedback. Don't stick with the opinions of us raggedy azz men.


----------



## Chuck71

I live in the same state as FSJ.... I knew the term immediately. Granted I live very close to the 

NC border. Mostly you see people just like anywhere else..... sometimes you see females with 

Magnum PI mustaches, arm hair like the WWF wrestler George "The Animal" Steele, or a beautiful 

young woman at the beach.... in a two piece... dark tan.... bounce a silver dollar off her arse.... then 

you see her underarms.... unshaven... thick as a bird's nest. 

This gal knows you are recently D, went through a lot. She should know you are nowhere near

anything serious. You would like a "wingwoman," maybe take day trips with, dine out with (dutch...

if you pay she will get wrong impression), talk with. See there are ways to let a female know..... 

you're only seeking friendship..... for now. They're usually pretty damn good at picking up on that.

One thing I learned quick... in my last 18 months of dating... I would like children but I also loved

dating older women (XW was older). I would still go out with older women but... just as friends. 

"I want children.... you either can't have or don't want any more, I respect that." But I set up boundaries

of... date yes.... LTR won't happen.... if sex occurs it must be mutual and it will not change my 

view of only wanting to seriously date someone who would want to have children.

75% of them still threw it right at me... without me making the least effort. 5% was a "mutual throw,"

the other 20%... no sex happened.

If this girl has liked you from "afar" for years... be careful. AND... if she throws it right at you... don't you

dare feel guilty for saying... "I'm not ready for this." Hopefully she would respect your boundaries and 

accept your friendship. Hell... who knows.... something may happen down the road.... just not at this moment.


----------



## farsidejunky

Pack:

Have you read Chuck's journals?

If not, the post about the date with the tow truck driving female was particularly entertaining...

Of course, Chuck could post it here for a chuckle or two.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Chuck71

farsidejunky said:


> Pack:
> 
> Have you read Chuck's journals?
> 
> If not, the post about the date with the tow truck driving female was particularly entertaining...
> 
> Of course, Chuck could post it here for a chuckle or two.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl: She wasn't the only one from 2015 but damn.... she took #1 on my 

Top 10 2015 bad dates. Be glad to post them here if you like or you can just check out the last

few pages on Crossroads II-The Way in LaD. 

I would post the four types of females you will run into on the dating scene but..... I did on

some other guy's thread and his thread went ice cold afterwards LOL


----------



## MrPack

farsidejunky said:


> Pack:
> 
> Have you read Chuck's journals?
> 
> If not, the post about the date with the tow truck driving female was particularly entertaining...
> 
> Of course, Chuck could post it here for a chuckle or two.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


I have not but I will now!


----------



## MrPack

Chuck71 said:


> :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl: She wasn't the only one from 2015 but damn.... she took #1 on my
> 
> Top 10 2015 bad dates. Be glad to post them here if you like or you can just check out the last
> 
> few pages on Crossroads II-The Way in LaD.
> 
> I would post the four types of females you will run into on the dating scene but..... I did on
> 
> some other guy's thread and his thread went ice cold afterwards LOL


Haha, I will do some searching to find these posts. Lol this should be good.


----------



## MrPack

Absurdist said:


> Then do it with no expectations other that having fun with someone.
> 
> Suggest you get opinions from Pluto and Too Nice. You need some female feedback. Don't stick with the opinions of us raggedy azz men.


I would LOVE some opinions from Pluto and TooNice! :grin2:


----------



## TooNice

I think you've already gotten some great advice here. 

Don't come on too strong, like asking her to dinner right away. If she's just nosing around, it may scare her. If she really likes you, she may get her hopes up quickly. 

Be honest. You don't know what you want, and that's ok. Go slow, take it easy, and just enjoy the company of another human. 

As for attraction (or possible lack thereof), if you never really noticed her much before, it's probably because you were faithful to your wife and not looking at other women that way. You may see her again in person and look at her differently now. 

Let things coast for a few days on social media and see what develops. If meeting for coffee to catch up comes up in conversation, then go for it. No pressure. Just coffee. You have to do the first "date" post-d at some point. Why not have it be with someone you already know?


----------



## Pluto2

Take it slow.

I'm a fan of coffee, or a drink, or some local activity (daytime) to start. And perhaps approach this with a view of reconnecting with a friend. If there's mutual interest you should know soon enough. Forget the label of a "date" and make this about connecting with a person. I mean who doesn't need more friends in their lives.


----------



## Chuck71

Pluto2 said:


> Take it slow.
> 
> I'm a fan of coffee, or a drink, or some local activity (daytime) to start. And perhaps approach this with a view of reconnecting with a friend. If there's mutual interest you should know soon enough. *Forget the label of a "date" and make this about connecting with a person.* I mean who doesn't need more friends in their lives.


EXACTLY! Just re-connects.... doesn't mean you have to re-capture. After my break up

with post-D g/f (4th love), I re-connected with my 1st and 2nd loves from the late 80s / early 90s.

Had a blast.... talked about days gone by. Actually did this with a few other girls from my past.

Why Chuck? These were girls you had not dated since 1997 or earlier? Well.... being M from 97-12 and

dating 4th love right before the D was final, I really never had any chance to. I'm not the type

to try and keep up with ex g/fs while I am in a committed LTR. Call it a "Where are they now"

But it's not for everyone. The thread you were going to look at about my tow truck driver date.....

I posted quite a few times there about my re-connects. Check 'em out if you like.


----------



## turnera

I would look for something like Events and Adventures, where something is going on, like a fair or bulb sale or whatever, totally nonromantic but you have a good reason to want to go to it, just not alone. See what happens.

Oh, and female here.


----------



## Absurdist

turnera said:


> I would look for something like Events and Adventures, where something is going on, like a fair or bulb sale or whatever, totally nonromantic but you have a good reason to want to go to it, just not alone. See what happens.
> 
> Oh, and female here.


I didn't mean to leave you out of the mix Tunera.

MrPack - on my first date with MrsAbsurdist I couldn't have screwed things up more if I tried. First, I put my car in drive instead of reverse and dang near ran the thing through the front of her apartment. We ordered French Onion soup at the restaurant. Somehow I got my tie smack dab in the middle of the cup of soup. French onion dripping everywhere. I felt like a complete klutz. Then I had to pee real bad. I got up hurriedly to go to the restroom and I knocked over a tray holding water and tea. The stuff went everywhere. I was so embarrassed. 

When I took MrsAbsurdist home I didn't know what to do. I just knew she thought I was a bumbling nerd. Instead she came up to me, grabbed my lapels and kissed me. She said I was so adorable. 

Ya never know whats to happen at these encounters MrPack. Go with the flow. You'll probably screw something up but hey.... it's OK. :grin2:


----------



## turnera

IMO, women want kindness, a sense of humor, being relaxed and not getting upset over things, treats servants well, not bragging, and just general interest in the woman (i.e., not just talking about yourself).

Be that person, and you have nothing to worry about.


----------



## TooNice

turnera said:


> IMO, women want kindness, a sense of humor, being relaxed and not getting upset over things, treats servants well, not bragging, and just general interest in the woman (i.e., not just talking about yourself).
> 
> Be that person, and you have nothing to worry about.




So true-especially the part about showing interest. Some of my worst dates have been the ones where I ask questions to learn more about a guy... And all he does is answer them, followed by more detailed explanations. 

I have another male friend who is dating and texts me for advice. I always tell him to just be himself and be honest. Things will either flow from there, or they won't. 


~Just breathe.


----------



## MrPack

Well I made the decision to not pursue this girl. This may sound superficial but poking around her facebook and Instagram there really is no attraction there at all. 

In other news had more talks with my buddies fiancé this weekend. She's the one that has a friend she wants me to meet. Nothing formal just kind of what you all have been saying....just to get my feet wet and get out there in the dating scene. This girl isn't looking for anything serious right now neither am I. Long story short these friends of mine will be on vacation for about a week and a half, when they get back they are supposed to set something up...maybe a double date. 

We will see...


----------



## Chuck71

Know the best way to find out what your friends think of you...... 

let them fix you up with someone.


----------



## MrPack

Last year at this time I was really struggling, scared as $hit and worried getting ready to head up north for my buddies wedding. The wedding that both myself and ExMrsPack were in and had to walk down the isle together. Sort of ironic, I head up north this this afternoon same town, and will be golfing Sunday at the same course that the wedding was at last year. Only difference is this weekend trip should be a bit easier and a lot more fun.

I wonder if I'll have some weird feelings when I get to the course Sunday. I mean the wedding night at that course was all over the place. Had tough conversations with ExMrspack during the wedding night. I sort of have a little knot in my stomach thinking about it.

I'm looking for ways to convince myself that I'm better off a year later, I know I am but it's a little hard to see.


----------



## Chuck71

I was worried about my 1 years... 1st Christmas w / o XW, 1st Thanksgiving, then the day we met

anniversary, wedding anniversary. I'm ADHD / autistic / huge history buff.... I know dates with the best.

No avoiding them for me.... the first big one.... wedding date.... it bothered me maybe 5% of what

I thought it would have. When you know you do not want a thing to do with them any more..... so so easy.

Eventually you will be able to separate missing her with memory lane. She was great at one time but...

that time has long passed.

I posted my thoughts on the first wedding ann. apart on Zillard 's first thread. Should be somewhere 

around the first of June 2013.


----------



## Absurdist

MrPack said:


> Last year at this time I was really struggling, scared as $hit and worried getting ready to head up north for my buddies wedding. The wedding that both myself and ExMrsPack were in and had to walk down the isle together. Sort of ironic, I head up north this this afternoon same town, and will be golfing Sunday at the same course that the wedding was at last year. Only difference is this weekend trip should be a bit easier and a lot more fun.
> 
> I wonder if I'll have some weird feelings when I get to the course Sunday. I mean the wedding night at that course was all over the place. Had tough conversations with ExMrspack during the wedding night. I sort of have a little knot in my stomach thinking about it.
> 
> I'm looking for ways to convince myself that I'm better off a year later, I know I am but it's a little hard to see.


MrPack - last year it was nothing but shanks, duck hooks and worm burners for you. This week it'll be a nice long fade past the bunker into the middle of the fairway.

Personal growth and the passage of time is a wonderful thing.

Consider what Farside wrote in your own thread this time last year.


----------



## farsidejunky

Absurdist said:


> MrPack - last year it was nothing but shanks, duck hooks and worm burners for you. This week it'll be a nice long fade past the bunker into the middle of the fairway.
> 
> Personal growth and the passage of time is a wonderful thing.
> 
> Consider what Farside wrote in your own thread this time last year.


Yeah, what that guy said!

:grin2:

If nothing else, brother, freaking laugh about it; the comedy and the tragedy; shake your head; cry some; all of it is necessary to some degree.

Then let the focus of your vision shift from the rear view mirror to the windshield, where nothing but opportunity awaits you.


----------



## MrPack

Thanks guys. Currently I'm sitting on the couch at the cabin watching the US Open while battling stomach issues. Not good. I've been drinking lots of Gatorade today. Hoping to get whatever bug is in my stomach out before our round tomorrow morning. Just my luck lol wasting a day with stomach crap. Fingers crossed its better tomorrow. 

BTW... I've always battled stomach issues as an adult. So this is nothing new to me but seems to pop up at the worst times.

As for tomorrow I will take all the advice you guys gave me. I'm looking forward to it. The knot in my stomach is gone... Actually it's not it's just caused by something else now lol.

Thanks again guys.


----------



## Chuck71

Lifted from Pink Floyd........

The child is grown

the dream is gone


----------



## honcho

Chuck71 said:


> Lifted from Pink Floyd........
> 
> The child is grown
> 
> the dream is gone


Let's hope the stomach issues pass so he can have a few cold ones and become comfortably numb while golfing.


----------



## MrPack

I'm back home from my weekend up north. I woke up Sunday feeling a lot better thank god. 

Sunday was the big golf day, I did have a few beers on the course but it didn't help my game at all. Played terrible but still managed to enjoy the course and time with my dad and uncles. But....after the round we had lunch in the club house. During that time my mind started going back to last year and how hard that weekend was at that very same spot. I'm not going to lie when I walked past the bench that Exmrspack and I had a long tough conversation at it really felt like a punch in the gut. Just being at that course in general was hard, it didn't totally ruin my day but certainly put a damper on it. 

Otherwise it was great spending time relaxing with my dad and family. Glad to be home but dreading work tomorrow of course!


----------



## Chuck71

Sometimes you re-visit things to gauge how far you have climbed....


----------



## MrPack

Chuck71 said:


> Sometimes you re-visit things to gauge how far you have climbed....


Thank you sir and very true. I was still able to leave the golf course and enjoy a bbq at the cabin while listening to my dad and his three brothers tell old stories of growing up together. Man that was the best part. 

I'm noticing that when I do get in a funk or something bothers me like Sunday it's easier for me to move forward. Slow going but its going...


----------



## JohnA

A Sunday brunch aiways a great first date. Especially if it is a first meet. It is more expensive than coffee but it sends a message of boldness. I remember my first real relationship after my divorce. We chatted briefly she suggest perhaps we should meet for coffee. I responded I thought meeting was a good idea, and then said if we are going to do this lets do it right and meet at Rods for brunch on a Sunday for brunch. Oh, please since I asked so it is my bil and going forward can we use that as a genneral guideline?" 

Rods is a nice resturant that feature a cutting board with roast turkey, roast beef, and roast beef and a full breakfast menu. You dressed to go there. But since we meet there on a late sunday morning and stayed to early afternoon it was a date that afforded the opportunity to dress nice put not "date nice", and no doubts as to any hidden agendga. It both a bold and safe play. 

I also would suggest rather than play what day should I call her, if she was interested in a second date she should call me with an idea gave her a peck on the her cheek and walked away. In short I told her to be bold back to me. My thought process was if she did that was the girl I wanted a second date with. If she didn't then she was not what I was looking for move on.


----------



## MrPack

Going to a rock gym Saturday morning with a buddy. Do women like to climb fake mountains??? lol. Anyway it should be fun, something productive to do.


----------



## AngelHeart888

I honestly don't know if this is the right advice or not, because I'm no expert. But I think that sometimes it's OK not to wait for someone else to make a decision that will dictate how you move forward, but rather, to be pro-active, and make a decision yourself that you believe is right for YOU.


----------



## Chuck71

MrPack said:


> Going to a rock gym Saturday morning with a buddy. Do women like to climb fake mountains??? lol. Anyway it should be fun, something productive to do.


YOU do what YOU "wants" to do

By crap if a female has a hobby just like you....

Whoodathunkit?


----------



## Absurdist

MrPack said:


> Going to a rock gym Saturday morning with a buddy. Do women like to climb fake mountains??? lol. Anyway it should be fun, something productive to do.


MrPack - in the immortal words of .... Kiss

"Rock and roll all nite" 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MrPack

Rock Gym tomorrow morning. Wish me luck! Hopefully I don't hurt myself!


----------



## MrPack

I didn't hurt myself at the rock gym but I am certainly hurting today. Very very sore. But it was a lot of fun, surprisingly it was a great work out. We were there for 2 hours, it really reminded me of how old I am! Between the rock gym and the 4 hours of yard work I did this morning I will be hurting for the next couple days. 

I hope you all have had a great weekend.


----------



## Archangel2

MrPack said:


> I didn't hurt myself at the rock gym but I am certainly hurting today. Very very sore. But it was a lot of fun, surprisingly it was a great work out. We were there for 2 hours, it really reminded me of how old I am! Between the rock gym and the 4 hours of yard work I did this morning I will be hurting for the next couple days.
> 
> I hope you all have had a great weekend.


But it,s a "good" soreness, if you know what I mean. You feel like you're alive


----------



## MrPack

I finally took the plunge and downloaded a dating app about 4 days ago..."bumble". No luck so far. A bit discouraging to say the least. So far so "not good".

I leave for my annual family/friends summer Mexico trip Wednesday. I'm really looking forward to it but I spent a lot of time with my good friend and his wife this weekend preparing for the trip (they are coming) and it triggered feelings of regret and "I miss this". The little things the two of them have/share, I miss having that. I hate feeling so weak in regards to those types of thoughts/memories... But then again it could always be worse I guess.

Anyway I hope you all have had a great 4th of July weekend so far.


----------



## Archangel2

MrPack said:


> ...I posted my original story about a week ago. But long story short we've sort of just drifted apart the last couple years very slowly...


I thought it would be appropriate to quote something you wrote over a year ago. I just want to make sure you don't become too nostalgic for something that hasn't really existed for a long time, my friend.


----------



## turnera

MrPack said:


> I didn't hurt myself at the rock gym but I am certainly hurting today. Very very sore. But it was a lot of fun, surprisingly it was a great work out. We were there for 2 hours, it really reminded me of how old I am! Between the rock gym and the 4 hours of yard work I did this morning I will be hurting for the next couple days.
> 
> I hope you all have had a great weekend.


I have a book you'll enjoy, apropos to this: Sixkill, by Robert B. Parker.


----------



## MrPack

turnera2 said:


> I have a book you'll enjoy, apropos to this: Sixkill, by Robert B. Parker.


Thanks, I'll have to check it out.


----------



## MrPack

Archangel2a said:


> I thought it would be appropriate to quote something you wrote over a year ago. I just want to make sure you don't become too nostalgic for something that hasn't really existed for a long time, my friend.


Very good point, thank you for the reminder. And you are correct, it hadn't existed for a long time.


----------



## Absurdist

MrPack said:


> I finally took the plunge and downloaded a dating app about 4 days ago..*."bumble"*. No luck so far. A bit discouraging to say the least. So far so "not good".


MrPack - remember that I'm bad old and long time married. I've never seen the good side of online dating. But.... Bumble is an app where the women chase the men. Talk about having your self esteem shot to shreds. Heck, I wouldn't have one contact on that thing.

Don't you think you need to try another OLD site?

Or better yet.... meet someone doing something worthwhile like volunteering or some meetup activity.

If I had to meet someone on photos only, it would be game over for me. I have a face for radio. Even my dogs barks at my pics.


----------



## MrPack

Absurdist said:


> MrPack - remember that I'm bad old and long time married. I've never seen the good side of online dating. But.... Bumble is an app where the women chase the men. Talk about having your self esteem shot to shreds. Heck, I wouldn't have one contact on that thing.
> 
> Don't you think you need to try another OLD site?
> 
> Or better yet.... meet someone doing something worthwhile like volunteering or some meetup activity.
> 
> If I had to meet someone on photos only, it would be game over for me. I have a face for radio. Even my dogs barks at my pics.


Haha, you sure do have a way with words my friend. Yes this online dating thing doesn't seem to be the answer for me. I thought I'd give it a try for a bit just to see what happens but yes I have always thought that I would end up meeting someone in person and not when expected.


----------



## Archangel2

Absurdist said:


> MrPack - remember that I'm bad old and long time married. I've never seen the good side of online dating. But.... Bumble is an app where the women chase the men. Talk about having your self esteem shot to shreds. Heck, I wouldn't have one contact on that thing.
> 
> Don't you think you need to try another OLD site?
> 
> Or better yet.... meet someone doing something worthwhile like volunteering or some meetup activity.
> 
> If I had to meet someone on photos only, it would be game over for me. I have a face for radio. Even my dogs barks at my pics.


I've heard volunteering with Big Brothers was a vehicle to meet quality singles (usually through joint events held with Big Sisters).


----------



## Chuck71

About OLD sites.........

Too many people consider "dating -just- on-line" as dating. "Oh we've been together a month, we text all day!" Seriously.... I'm way too old school for that crap. Minus the major OLD sites.... ones such as FarmersDating, HorndogDating, etc.... they offer free everything...until you sign-up. You can send messages, wink, flirt, whatever.... BUT gosh darn it, you have to pay $xx a month to read received emails. This is done to boost numbers / subscribers to lure more people to pay up thinking there are 54,248 in your area (even if you live in rural Wyoming LOL). The big name ones are just about as bad.

******* is free and you can upgrade for extra features. I would receive views and messages from girls in Malaysia, Philippines, and Brazil often. Random messages from Washington, Nevada, California (I am 125 miles north of Atlanta)... wanting to get to know me...... WHY? OKC has a new app where someone really does not have to fill out a profile outside of gender and age. The pics.... if they're very attractive and have only one pic....RED FLAG. If they are local, attractive, 6-7 pics.... nice.... just watch out, some are attention wh#res and want nothing to do with meeting, just ego boost. But this is free.... why not... just proceed with caution.

POF..... on one hand... you meet the dregs of society. On the other.... very little BS like OKC and it's free with certain upgrades. And it is a good place to meet FWB, if that's your deal. You rarely get people halfway across the planet or county messaging you. You will get many from 100-250 miles away...POFs mileage radius is really slanted. I can type in 75 mile radius and still get people from cities well south of Atlanta. You will meet weird people, deranged people, and delusional.... but they will be local LOL! This site is the worst about window shopping, never reading your profile. If they like your pic.... message. 

When I was first on POF the 2nd time in late 2014.... I was 42, want kids, PhD candidate, author. 50% of my messages were from 45-55, kids, doesn't want kids (DUH), have four kids already, high school education, janitor/cook/housekeeping/factory, hates reading. Just not a match for me..... not to mention when they have more tats than Dennis Rodman. Or fishing lures or cattle prods in their nose..... I used to be polite and always respond to every message if they sent first. That lasted maybe four months. Again.... it's free, just be cautious.

Match.... ahhhh the cream of the crop! Bullchip.... I would get messages from people, after they winked and favorite'd me.... from an obscure place about 150 miles away.... one pic.... gorgeous.... get the picture? They state they can not receive messages on Match (hello, to wink, fav, message you must be paying member) and give you an email address. Ignore those..... I did it once just to see.... severely inept English, yet live near you! They will disable their profile from your viewing within a few hours if you totally ignore them. Match has an IM function... I'm a night owl.... that is when they strike. You get "What name do you go by?" Dead giveaway.... after awhile I messed with them.... "I am Chuck IV of Lancaster." You will get messages from a nearby city (when you suspect one.... fav them.... you will notice their city of residence change quickly, nearer yours).

They will search a city within 25 miles of you...... They ask if you like long distance relationships..... because they are a nurse in a third world country for the next six to twelve months. "Why did you put xxxx as your city of residence?" "I went to a birthday party there once." LOL I'm serious....Then they ask when they can see you "When you return to the States and are passing through north Georgia, take care." If you want to have fun... ask what country they are in...... "What's the capital.... Who is President / dictator / ruler, or What country are you in conflict with...." They either leave you alone or change the subject.

Match has the most BS con of any.... when your membership runs out, you suddenly get dozens of winks, fav's, daily picks that some woman likes you....... but gosh golly darn..... you have to sign back up to read them! You may get 5 winks and 5 fav's a month from legit people..... now that you are a non-member.... you get at least than every week, if not more.

You can meet someone worthwhile on any of the three OLD sites.... but 95% are cons, flakes, BSers, someone you would never match with, or just wondering what the world is like when they stop taking their meds.


----------



## MrPack

Hey guys, just thought I'd check in. It's been a while since I've posted. Nothing really new with me. I have finally started talking to women, a couple from the Bumble APP but nothing has come from that. Recently I started texting with a friend of a friend, we haven't made any plans yet but she also is recently divorced. She's seems nice but just like the girl from Instagram she doesn't really seem like my type looks wise from the few pictures I have seen. I think I may pursue it though, if anything just to meet and maybe hangout a couple times. Who knows, she may turn out to be an awesome chick, lord knows I'm no Brad Pitt. The same friend has a coworker she wants me to meet, her pictures look more my type but again it's just a picture. We haven't communicated at all yet though. 

This is all still so weird to me. I feel socially awkward just texting these women. lol I'm very rusty.

Went golfing this past weekend and an older gentleman that golfs in our league said to me "you could make a turtle nervous". Lol He was listening to me explain to a couple of my buddies how awkward I feel talking to women. They all tell me that I'm over thinking it. They are probably right.

I hope all is well with you all.


----------



## Pluto2

Nice update Mr. Pack, and you probably are overthinking it all.
But then who am I to talk, I won't touch on-line dating sites either. I just too old.


----------



## MrPack

Pluto2 said:


> Nice update Mr. Pack, and you probably are overthinking it all.
> But then who am I to talk, I won't touch on-line dating sites either. I just too old.


Pshhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. "too old". Stop that! I'm still waiting to see you and TooNice one of these days... somewhere on a beach. I was looking on my last Mexico trip.

But really I hope your doing well. Stop with the "too old" crap! Any guy would be LUCKY to have you in their life.


----------



## TooNice

MrPack said:


> Pshhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. "too old". Stop that! I'm still waiting to see you and TooNice one of these days... somewhere on a beach. I was looking on my last Mexico trip.
> 
> 
> 
> But really I hope your doing well. Stop with the "too old" crap! Any guy would be LUCKY to have you in their life.




Oh, boy...

MrPack, you are gonna do just fine.


~Just breathe.


----------



## farsidejunky

TooNice said:


> Oh, boy...
> 
> MrPack, you are gonna do just fine.
> 
> 
> ~Just breathe.


This...lol


----------



## Absurdist

MrPack I reckon I'm going to reveal that I PM you regularly. Just like the PMs, MrPack go out with all of these women. May not be a keeper in the bunch but that doesn't matter. You are just gaining experience. (Heck, the Too Nice's and Pluto's of the world don't grow on trees you know). Remember your best friends Who What When Where and How. Get these ladies talking about themselves and they will think you are a brilliant conversationalist.

For Farside, Chuck, Honcho, Too Nice, Pluto and the other contributors to this thread, I was in MrPack's hometown last week. Drove right past XMrsPack's witch doctor school. Rolled the window down and gave the place the inverted Hook em Horns sign. You do that by lowering the index finger and little finger and raising the middle finger. Hey.... Anything for our beloved MrPack!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## farsidejunky

ROFL!

Go Mountaineers.


----------



## Tron

Like this?










The Mountaineers sure are a unique bunch, hand signals and all.


----------



## ReturntoZero

Chuck71 said:


> About OLD sites.........
> 
> Too many people consider "dating -just- on-line" as dating. "Oh we've been together a month, we text all day!" Seriously.... I'm way too old school for that crap. Minus the major OLD sites.... ones such as FarmersDating, HorndogDating, etc.... they offer free everything...until you sign-up. You can send messages, wink, flirt, whatever.... BUT gosh darn it, you have to pay $xx a month to read received emails. This is done to boost numbers / subscribers to lure more people to pay up thinking there are 54,248 in your area (even if you live in rural Wyoming LOL). The big name ones are just about as bad.
> 
> ******* is free and you can upgrade for extra features. I would receive views and messages from girls in Malaysia, Philippines, and Brazil often. Random messages from Washington, Nevada, California (I am 125 miles north of Atlanta)... wanting to get to know me...... WHY? OKC has a new app where someone really does not have to fill out a profile outside of gender and age. The pics.... if they're very attractive and have only one pic....RED FLAG. If they are local, attractive, 6-7 pics.... nice.... just watch out, some are attention wh#res and want nothing to do with meeting, just ego boost. But this is free.... why not... just proceed with caution.
> 
> POF..... on one hand... you meet the dregs of society. On the other.... very little BS like OKC and it's free with certain upgrades. And it is a good place to meet FWB, if that's your deal. You rarely get people halfway across the planet or county messaging you. You will get many from 100-250 miles away...POFs mileage radius is really slanted. I can type in 75 mile radius and still get people from cities well south of Atlanta. You will meet weird people, deranged people, and delusional.... but they will be local LOL! This site is the worst about window shopping, never reading your profile. If they like your pic.... message.
> 
> When I was first on POF the 2nd time in late 2014.... I was 42, want kids, PhD candidate, author. 50% of my messages were from 45-55, kids, doesn't want kids (DUH), have four kids already, high school education, janitor/cook/housekeeping/factory, hates reading. Just not a match for me..... not to mention when they have more tats than Dennis Rodman. Or fishing lures or cattle prods in their nose..... I used to be polite and always respond to every message if they sent first. That lasted maybe four months. Again.... it's free, just be cautious.
> 
> Match.... ahhhh the cream of the crop! Bullchip.... I would get messages from people, after they winked and favorite'd me.... from an obscure place about 150 miles away.... one pic.... gorgeous.... get the picture? They state they can not receive messages on Match (hello, to wink, fav, message you must be paying member) and give you an email address. Ignore those..... I did it once just to see.... severely inept English, yet live near you! They will disable their profile from your viewing within a few hours if you totally ignore them. Match has an IM function... I'm a night owl.... that is when they strike. You get "What name do you go by?" Dead giveaway.... after awhile I messed with them.... "I am Chuck IV of Lancaster." You will get messages from a nearby city (when you suspect one.... fav them.... you will notice their city of residence change quickly, nearer yours).
> 
> They will search a city within 25 miles of you...... They ask if you like long distance relationships..... because they are a nurse in a third world country for the next six to twelve months. "Why did you put xxxx as your city of residence?" "I went to a birthday party there once." LOL I'm serious....Then they ask when they can see you "When you return to the States and are passing through north Georgia, take care." If you want to have fun... ask what country they are in...... "What's the capital.... Who is President / dictator / ruler, or What country are you in conflict with...." They either leave you alone or change the subject.
> 
> Match has the most BS con of any.... when your membership runs out, you suddenly get dozens of winks, fav's, daily picks that some woman likes you....... but gosh golly darn..... you have to sign back up to read them! You may get 5 winks and 5 fav's a month from legit people..... now that you are a non-member.... you get at least than every week, if not more.
> 
> You can meet someone worthwhile on any of the three OLD sites.... but 95% are cons, flakes, BSers, someone you would never match with, or just wondering what the world is like when they stop taking their meds.


Veteran testimony


----------



## MrPack

Absurdist said:


> MrPack I reckon I'm going to reveal that I PM you regularly. Just like the PMs, MrPack go out with all of these women. May not be a keeper in the bunch but that doesn't matter. You are just gaining experience. (Heck, the Too Nice's and Pluto's of the world don't grow on trees you know). Remember your best friends Who What When Where and How. Get these ladies talking about themselves and they will think you are a brilliant conversationalist.
> 
> For Farside, Chuck, Honcho, Too Nice, Pluto and the other contributors to this thread, I was in MrPack's hometown last week. Drove right past XMrsPack's witch doctor school. Rolled the window down and gave the place the inverted Hook em Horns sign. You do that by lowering the index finger and little finger and raising the middle finger. Hey.... Anything for our beloved MrPack!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This... Lol thank you sir!!


----------



## farsidejunky

Tron said:


> Like this?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Mountaineers sure are a unique bunch, hand signals and all.


You don't like it?

We'll throw batteries at you. Especially of you are a Pitt fan.


----------



## Tron

And then go burn your couch in the front yard?

:grin2:


----------



## farsidejunky

Tron said:


> And then go burn your couch in the front yard?
> 
> :grin2:


Only when we win.


----------



## Chuck71

Going out with someone means NOTHING.... nada, zilch. You meet

on an OLD, meet, that's it. 95% of first meets are coffee n go. You agree

to meet for 30 minutes. Most allocate more available time just in case

there is a mutual spark.... but still no real "date" takes place. Therefore.....

why not meet? No matter who you meet, no matter if they dropped out of

school after the sixth grade.... everyone you meet.... you learn something

from. You get your feet wet, gain traction, widescope of the dating world.

Never know.... she may not be a bombshell or size 10 but she may be the

type to say, "I don't want anything serious or deep but would you care if I 

shoved you up against your car and showed you.... ....... and BTW I live three

miles from here." Strange world dating is, strange world.

Bear in mind.... pics are sometimes misleading. Some people aren't pic

friendly.... you meet anyway, expecting a "Southeast 5" and meet a 

"Southeast 8." Add in the Southern drawl and personality.... yeah weunz goin'

owt agin! Then again... they can be misleading. To the point you do not recognize

her at all. It's all good though.... ya know who would make a big deal

out of a 30 minute meet n greet? A high schooler.

Pac-Man.... you're just rusty. You owe a female you meet NOTHING. She 

owes you nothing. Just be cordial and friendly. BTW.... a "Southern 8" is not

an "LA 8." They're very different. But I would take a "Southern 10" over an "LA 10"

any day. A "Southern 10" wouldn't hand you an assessment portfolio to fill out

before the 1st date....... an "LA 10" would.


----------



## MrPack

Man this whole dating thing or at least just trying to meet good women is tough! I was talking to a girl for a couple weeks. We met on Bumble she eventually gave me her number so we started texting then last week she just stopped texting back lol. On to the next one I guess...?

On another note my best friends father passed away a couple nights ago due to his stage 4 pancreatic cancer. He was diagnosed this past March and it obviously moved quickly. I saw my buddy and his brothers yesterday. They seem to be doing okay but it has really put things into perspective. His father is about the same age as my parents. I cant imagine losing my parents this early on in life. My buddy has a lot of people surrounding him and his brothers right now for support so that's great. I just feel terrible for all of them. Anyway sorry to be a downer this morning but just thought I'd check in. 

I hope you all are doing great.


----------



## Chuck71

farsidejunky said:


> You don't like it?
> 
> We'll throw batteries at you. Especially of you are a Pitt fan.


LOL unless yous in da Sowth.... we likes ta do dis


----------



## Chuck71

MrPack said:


> Man this whole dating thing or at least just trying to meet good women is tough! I was talking to a girl for a couple weeks. We met on Bumble she eventually gave me her number so we started texting then last week she just stopped texting back lol. On to the next one I guess...?
> 
> On another note my best friends father passed away a couple nights ago due to his stage 4 pancreatic cancer. He was diagnosed this past March and it obviously moved quickly. I saw my buddy and his brothers yesterday. They seem to be doing okay but it has really put things into perspective. His father is about the same age as my parents. I cant imagine losing my parents this early on in life. My buddy has a lot of people surrounding him and his brothers right now for support so that's great. I just feel terrible for all of them. Anyway sorry to be a downer this morning but just thought I'd check in.
> 
> I hope you all are doing great.


As for dating..... within a few days... set up a 15-30 minute meet n greet.

No use tying up your time for a couple weeks and then they vanish like a fart.

If they're on there to meet, they will meet after a few days (meet n greet).

Some are not on there to meet, more for an ego boost. The girl I dated a few months back,

she got over 100 messages a day. 98% were fantasy / ONS / show n tell pics.

I received maybe 10-15 a week.... thing was over 75% were legit females wanting to meet.

Some females get "caught up in the game" of OLD. Some don't even realize it....

Welcome to the 21st century of OLD! 

You have my condolences about your friend. It is a very rough time. I lost my pop 20 years ago, was 24.

We never were close but he taught me a lot... most of the advice I give here is exactly what he told me.


----------



## Absurdist

MrPack said:


> Man this whole dating thing or at least just trying to meet good women is tough! I was talking to a girl for a couple weeks. We met on Bumble she eventually gave me her number so we started texting then last week she just stopped texting back lol. On to the next one I guess...?



Spineless woman!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

MrPack said:


> Man this whole dating thing or at least just trying to meet good women is tough! I was talking to a girl for a couple weeks. We met on Bumble she eventually gave me her number so we started texting then last week she just stopped texting back lol. On to the next one I guess...?
> 
> On another note my best friends father passed away a couple nights ago due to his stage 4 pancreatic cancer. He was diagnosed this past March and it obviously moved quickly. I saw my buddy and his brothers yesterday. They seem to be doing okay but it has really put things into perspective. His father is about the same age as my parents. I cant imagine losing my parents this early on in life. My buddy has a lot of people surrounding him and his brothers right now for support so that's great. I just feel terrible for all of them. Anyway sorry to be a downer this morning but just thought I'd check in.
> 
> I hope you all are doing great.


You should not be dating yet. You are condemning any women you date to disappointment and heartache because you haven't mourned your marriage yet. Which takes months if not years. if you need sex, go get sex. But don't try to find a girlfriend.


----------



## MrPack

turnera said:


> You should not be dating yet. You are condemning any women you date to disappointment and heartache because you haven't mourned your marriage yet. Which takes months if not years. if you need sex, go get sex. But don't try to find a girlfriend.


With respect...why do you say that? To my credit I'm not looking for anything serious right now but I am looking for some companionship whether that be sex or just a women to share my time with...

Please elaborate...


----------



## turnera

Because (1) you're vulnerable after having this done to you so any female attention is going to make you instantly more attracted to said woman more than normal because you need affirmation that you're ok so badly, (2) even though you SAY you'll just be casual, reason 1 above will cause you to fall for her and fall hard, (3) they say it takes one month of being alone per year you were together to get over all your feelings about a person and you will THINK you're past her but if you don't force yourself to handle being alone (and remember how hard you fought it), and learn to be OK being alone, those feelings are going to implode on you (and your current girlfriend) and cause you even more grief, and (4) if you can't learn to be ok alone, it means you're codependent and you really need to work on that because to have a successful relationship, you must be able to walk away if it's not working for you but if you're codependent, you'll stay anyway out of fear of not finding anyone else.

If you need to have sex, just go out and find some friends with benefits. If you need companionship, go out in groups. But don't go dating in hopes it will help you feel better.

And I'll ask you: why do you have to have a WOMAN to spend some time with? Think about it. What are you looking to get out of that?


----------



## TooNice

MrPack said:


> Man this whole dating thing or at least just trying to meet good women is tough! I was talking to a girl for a couple weeks. We met on Bumble she eventually gave me her number so we started texting then last week she just stopped texting back lol. On to the next one I guess...?
> 
> On another note my best friends father passed away a couple nights ago due to his stage 4 pancreatic cancer. He was diagnosed this past March and it obviously moved quickly. I saw my buddy and his brothers yesterday. They seem to be doing okay but it has really put things into perspective. His father is about the same age as my parents. I cant imagine losing my parents this early on in life. My buddy has a lot of people surrounding him and his brothers right now for support so that's great. I just feel terrible for all of them. Anyway sorry to be a downer this morning but just thought I'd check in.
> 
> I hope you all are doing great.


You've been "ghosted", my friend. It happens. I recently posted in another thread that I have had a great deal of respect for the men who have simply sent me texts stating that they hit it off with someone else, or that we just were not the fit they they are hoping to find. So much classier than going dark. That happened to me with the guy I was sort of seeing, too. 4 dates - really good ones - and he just shifted his communication style and now hasn't texted in a week and a half. It's sad, but hardly bothers me anymore. 

I am sorry about your friend's dad. I lost my parents young, and it was the hardest thing I ever went through - even harder than losing my marriage. 

Hang in there on the dating front. You will get more comfortable with it. I respectfully disagree with tunera; I do think you are ready to be dating, as long as you know your limits and expectations. Which I think you have a good grasp of. You keep busy, you aren't home wallowing in self pity, and you and your pup have a nice space that you like to spend time in. You are on the right track.


----------



## Ralph Bellamy

MrPack said:


> Man this whole dating thing or at least just trying to meet good women is tough! I was talking to a girl for a couple weeks. We met on Bumble she eventually gave me her number so we started texting then last week she just stopped texting back lol. On to the next one I guess...?


You were ghosted, no biggie. Personally, you shouldn't be talking for 2 weeks before meeting. 3-4 days tops before asking to meet for a drink. 2 weeks and you look a little weak. Try your best to be confident and jovial.


----------



## Chuck71

When I first started OLD in late 2014, I thought two weeks then meet. Yes I learned they vanish or after 3-4 days I cut back on the communication. I felt I had given enough info to meet n greet. There's only so much you can cover before a meet n greet. Many times I would have some who started telling their life story...... kind of weird. 

That's when I cut it to 1 week. Or if the back and forth is fluid.... after 2-3 days (distance may play a part). Back in the day... pre-OLD, you might very well spend two weeks chatting before meeting. But you communicated via phone. It was very rare when people claimed to be something they're not. Today...... more fakes than reals. Sad.... you'd think people 30 and up would have outgrown the BS..... guess again.... they're the worst.

I can say the BS runs both ways. It is super easy for me, well was, to meet people off the OLD sites because I don't ask for show n tell pics, ask them to agree to sex on 1st date, and ask for nothing but kindness and respect on first meet.

When I run across an OLD thread where females are griping about the guys saying / requesting BSC stuff..... I can say they're not making it up. The females aren't that bad..... yet.


----------



## MrPack

turnera said:


> Because (1) you're vulnerable after having this done to you so any female attention is going to make you instantly more attracted to said woman more than normal because you need affirmation that you're ok so badly, (2) even though you SAY you'll just be casual, reason 1 above will cause you to fall for her and fall hard, (3) they say it takes one month of being alone per year you were together to get over all your feelings about a person and you will THINK you're past her but if you don't force yourself to handle being alone (and remember how hard you fought it), and learn to be OK being alone, those feelings are going to implode on you (and your current girlfriend) and cause you even more grief, and (4) if you can't learn to be ok alone, it means you're codependent and you really need to work on that because to have a successful relationship, you must be able to walk away if it's not working for you but if you're codependent, you'll stay anyway out of fear of not finding anyone else.
> 
> If you need to have sex, just go out and find some friends with benefits. If you need companionship, go out in groups. But don't go dating in hopes it will help you feel better.
> 
> And I'll ask you: why do you have to have a WOMAN to spend some time with? Think about it. What are you looking to get out of that?


I have to admit you are making some sense...Thank you for your advice and words.

I'm just getting a lot of pressure from all fronts in regards to why am I not dating yet. For the most part what they say goes in one ear and out the other but it does make me think. Am I totally ready to jump into a relationship?? I doubt it but I do think I would benefit from a date here and there sometime soon just to see what its like. It's been forever since I've been in this position. 

One day at a time for me right now.


----------



## Ralph Bellamy

MrPack said:


> I have to admit you are making some sense...Thank you for your advice and words.
> 
> I'm just getting a lot of pressure from all fronts in regards to why am I not dating yet. For the most part what they say goes in one ear and out the other but it does make me think. Am I totally ready to jump into a relationship?? I doubt it but I do think I would benefit from a date here and there sometime soon just to see what its like. It's been forever since I've been in this position.
> 
> One day at a time for me right now.


Dating and being in a relationship are two different things. You should definitely try dating.


----------



## ReturntoZero

MrPack said:


> I have to admit you are making some sense...Thank you for your advice and words.
> 
> I'm just getting a lot of pressure from all fronts in regards to why am I not dating yet. For the most part what they say goes in one ear and out the other but it does make me think. Am I totally ready to jump into a relationship?? I doubt it but I do think I would benefit from a date here and there sometime soon just to see what its like. It's been forever since I've been in this position.
> 
> One day at a time for me right now.


How old are you again brother?


----------



## MrPack

ReturntoZero said:


> How old are you again brother?


I am 32...:surprise:


----------



## Red Sonja

turnera said:


> Because (1) you're vulnerable after having this done to you so any female attention is going to make you instantly more attracted to said woman more than normal because you need affirmation that you're ok so badly, (2) even though you SAY you'll just be casual, reason 1 above will cause you to fall for her and fall hard, (3) they say it takes one month of being alone per year you were together to get over all your feelings about a person and you will THINK you're past her but if you don't force yourself to handle being alone (and remember how hard you fought it), and learn to be OK being alone, those feelings are going to implode on you (and your current girlfriend) and cause you even more grief, and (4) if you can't learn to be ok alone, it means you're codependent and you really need to work on that because to have a successful relationship, you must be able to walk away if it's not working for you but if you're codependent, you'll stay anyway out of fear of not finding anyone else.


This is absolutely true, whether you want it to be or not. You need to mourn the relationship. Then do a “post mortem” to figure out the part you played in its demise and work on improving that part of yourself.

I am 26 months out of a 28 year marriage and I am just starting to think about *maybe *dating. I have spent the time building a new life for myself … creating a new routine of life, adding to my social circle, and exploring new activities. Yes, I was a bit lonely for the first few months, I think because I was in mourning. Now I *like *living alone; I *like *my new life.

I shudder to think what would have happened to me and any poor guy I dated if I had been looking to date soon after my marriage broke up.


----------



## ReturntoZero

MrPack said:


> I am 32...:surprise:


I would say "relax"

The thing nobody tells you is that with each passing year, the demographics continue to tilt in YOUR favor.

If you're responsible, earn a good wage, dependable, and self-sufficient, the prospects will present themselves.

And, Mr. Pack will get to pick.

Imagine that.


----------



## honcho

MrPack said:


> I am 32...:surprise:


At 30 I swore I would be a bachelor forever, at 32 I was married.....

You are young, the next 15-20 years can be the best of your life. I'd rather be 32 starting over than the 50 that I am now.


----------



## Absurdist

How is life treating you MrPack?

This time last year you were trying to figure out how to get XMrsPack to move her office crap out of the house.

My my my... how things change.


----------



## MrPack

Absurdist said:


> How is life treating you MrPack?
> 
> This time last year you were trying to figure out how to get XMrsPack to move her office crap out of the house.
> 
> My my my... how things change.


Life is okay. I thought I'd be further along by this time dating wise but nothing is really working out so far. Struggled a bit this week with my anxiety but other than that things are pretty good. 

I'm headed to the football game at my local university tonight with a few friends so that should be a good time. ExMrsPack lives near campus so I'm keeping my fingers crossed I don't run into her. 

Things have certainly changed in a years time that's for sure.


----------



## MrPack

Well I had a good time at the game Saturday night. Brought back good memories of the 21/22 year old MrPack. Not going to lie we felt a little old at the bars near campus after the game. Didn't run into ExMrsPack so that's a plus.

Yesterday I nursed a hangover in the morning then went to a BBQ at my parents house with some family and work friends. Today I ran some errands and met some friend for lunch. 

I have been talking to a girl on one of the dating apps and was about to ask her to hangout. Something casual like happy hour or coffee but I haven't heard from her in a couple days. Starting to see the "flakyness" of these dating apps.

Anyway I hope you all had a great long weekend.


----------



## Chuck71

MrPack said:


> Well I had a good time at the game Saturday night. Brought back good memories of the 21/22 year old MrPack. Not going to lie we felt a little old at the bars near campus after the game. Didn't run into ExMrsPack so that's a plus.
> 
> Yesterday I nursed a hangover in the morning then went to a BBQ at my parents house with some family and work friends. Today I ran some errands and met some friend for lunch.
> 
> I have been talking to a girl on one of the dating apps and was about to ask her to hangout. Something casual like happy hour or coffee but I haven't heard from her in a couple days. Starting to see the "flakyness" of these dating apps.
> 
> Anyway I hope you all had a great long weekend.


No accountability = irresponsibility per OLD

Completely get the feeling older at the college games / campus. Attended my first college

game in 30 years Thursday. Things have definitely changed.


----------



## MrPack

I'm full blown pitty party right now...this whole dating app stuff isn't working. I have a good group of buddies who are married or in relationships but the couple times that they have tried to "hook me up with someone" it hasn't worked out. I'm bored, lonely, bitter, I feel helpless sometimes too. I'm really struggling right now with "where I thought I'd be at this point in my life". I'm in a damn funk right now and it sucks. 

Just wanted to throw it out there. I know things could be A LOT worse and I have plenty to be thankful for but man it sucks right now.


----------



## Marc878

Ease up a bit. Nothing says there's a time limit on this. It'll happen when you least expect it


----------



## farsidejunky

Don't allow overblown expectations to define who you are. It will lead to you self loathing and (as you are seeing) self medicating.

Have you read Awareness yet?


----------



## farsidejunky

I would like to add one more thing. 

@Deejo once quoted this to me, when it looked like my marriage was going to end after fighting like hell to save it. It has stuck with me. Deejo is one of those folks on TAM who really knows how to make an impact in just a few words.



Deejo said:


> The mystical mods have granted your wish.
> 
> Hope the N.U.T's book helped.
> 
> Have always loved this quote, it is attributed to Seneca, but best known from the song 'Closing Time' by Semisonic.
> 
> "Every new beginning comes from some other beginning's end."
> 
> You are standing on the precipice of a new beginning. Doesn't always feel good. The big, important changes seldom do.
> 
> Nonetheless, you are to be congratulated.


If you have not done so, I would also encourage you to read Hold On To Your N.U.T.'s. It is a book that encourages you to find your mission in life. Right now, replacing your ex wife is your mission. This is faulty thinking. Get the book, brother.


----------



## Chuck71

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/going-...ong-sotry-prob-familar-need-some-support.html


Pac-Man.... check out Unbe's thread. It starts in 2013 but go to around 

page 50, start at the 2016 posts. He just got D, no kids, can't seem to

find the right one. You will see similarities. When you are dead set on

finding a g/f... they can sense that and... you can THINK you just met

Ms. Wonderful but.... "bandaged person." Takes 18-24 months to figure

out she is bandaged... IF you are not at 50k feet. Ooopsy daisy forgot 

the pill... preggo, well NOW ya got kids! I'm sure you will do the right thing

and M her... and we will see you back here in... 2022, with two more kids,

vanity plates saying "hit me," and the fact every time you come to a stop

light with her in the car, you want to get out and run. Chuck yousa bein' 

funny... yeah a bit but you see these SAME type stories on here all the time.

You are in a better position now to seek out the right woman than you were

when you M the witch doctor. As for OLD.... try this... post your profile on the

free ones.... OKC, POF and let THEM come to YOU. Whaahh.. you mean women

would email me? Yes they do... they did me. Did I care to meet ALL of them? Oh

he!! no... but you have a much better chance of avoiding the BS if she initiates

contact first. You avoid the attention seekers who want an ego boost. Now... as your

inbox fills, get out and mingle. But it's cold, fine walk in the mall, browse guy stuff.

Women WILL hang out in the guys section to make herself available.... kinda 

hard for us to do this in the women's clothes / undergarments section LOL

Join a historical society, volunteer at soup kitchen, homeless shelter, animal

shelter, teach an adult how to read and find a job. Was I looking for someone

when I met my XW..... no, I was already seeing several and was trying to eliminate

a couple. Was I looking when I met the post-D g/f.... no I was lost and needed

directions. Trying to find someone and just putting yourself out there are two

totally different things. The less effort you appear to put in usually gets you

the best rewards... yes doesn't make sense. If a healthy female senses you

are desperate for a LTR (yes they CAN sense this), they will drop you.

A "bandaged female" will come after you guns blazing. And we know how LTRs

end up with bandaged females don't we?


----------



## MrPack

Thanks guys for your words. I had a rough night last night but feeling better today. I'm out of that stupid pitty party I was in last night. It was just one of those nights where I found myself alone thinking about the past and feeling negative about everything. 

I need to stop setting these crazy expectations regarding women and where I should be right now.


----------



## ReturntoZero

farsidejunky said:


> Don't allow overblown expectations to define who you are. It will lead to you self loathing and (as you are seeing) self medicating.
> 
> Have you read Awareness yet?


Have you?

http://arvindguptatoys.com/arvindgupta/tonyawareness.pdf

No excuses.

We want a full report.


----------



## Chuck71

And detail your thoughts on #1, #2 and #3s


----------



## Archangel2

farsidejunky said:


> If you have not done so, I would also encourage you to read Hold On To Your N.U.T.'s. It is a book that encourages you to find your mission in life. Right now, replacing your ex wife is your mission. This is faulty thinking. Get the book, brother.


Mr. Pack - I think you need to refocus. It's time to concentrate on things that make you happy. In addition, when you are feeling down, it would be good to volunteer some of your time to a good cause (e.g. Helping to serve Thanksgiving dinner to the homeless, Special Olympics, you get the drift). Sometimes OLD doesn't work. Sometimes, when you least expect it and not looking for it, lightning strikes. Hey, it only takes once for it to happen.

A little story to illustrate my point...My oldest son had been dating a girl he met on MATCH. Things were going great. They already had 5 dates. Then suddenly she pulled the plug. No real reason (though I think it was religious/cultural). He was devastated. After going through some hard times, he got involved in IMPROV. It did him a world of good. One night, one of his cast mates invited him to a New Years Eve get together. There he met this girl (totally unexpected). One thing led to another. They've been married now for 2 years.

I think when it is least expected, lightning will strike. You have to get to that stage where you're not thinking that every event or gathering you go to will be the one where you meet that certain someone. It will only happen when you get into that groove and are not thinking of meeting someone new. Good luck, my friend.


----------



## MrPack

Archangel2 said:


> Mr. Pack - I think you need to refocus. It's time to concentrate on things that make you happy. In addition, when you are feeling down, it would be good to volunteer some of your time to a good cause (e.g. Helping to serve Thanksgiving dinner to the homeless, Special Olympics, you get the drift). Sometimes OLD doesn't work. Sometimes, when you least expect it and not looking for it, lightning strikes. Hey, it only takes once for it to happen.
> 
> A little story to illustrate my point...My oldest son had been dating a girl he met on MATCH. Things were going great. They already had 5 dates. Then suddenly she pulled the plug. No real reason (though I think it was religious/cultural). He was devastated. After going through some hard times, he got involved in IMPROV. It did him a world of good. One night, one of his cast mates invited him to a New Years Eve get together. There he met this girl (totally unexpected). One thing led to another. They've been married now for 2 years.
> 
> I think when it is least expected, lightning will strike. You have to get to that stage where you're not thinking that every event or gathering you go to will be the one where you meet that certain someone. It will only happen when you get into that groove and are not thinking of meeting someone new. Good luck, my friend.


Thank you for sharing what your son went through. To be honest what you are saying is exactly what I hope will happen. The only problem is I haven't put myself out there yet. I'm finding that I'm not doing anything new or different. I have a great group of buddies but unfortunately what we tend to do when we hangout hasn't been a benefit to my situation. I know I need to really break out of my shell. That is one of my current goals. I think I do have a small "fear" or "uncomfortable feeling" towards stepping out of what I feel is normal. I need to work on that and see what happens. Obviously what I'm currently doing isn't doing any good. 

Again...thank you. I will definitely keep you all posted.


----------



## MrPack

ReturntoZero said:


> Have you?
> 
> http://arvindguptatoys.com/arvindgupta/tonyawareness.pdf
> 
> No excuses.
> 
> We want a full report.


I have not but I promise I will and I'll let you all know what I think.


----------



## Archangel2

@MrPack - Hope you are doing well


----------



## MrPack

Archangel2 said:


> @MrPack - Hope you are doing well


Thank you! 

Sorry I haven't posted in a while. I've been good, had a little set back recently with my anxiety but am already feeling better.

I would also like to say that I met a girl last weekend. Well we knew each other many years ago...we used to be coworkers about 10 years ago. Anyway we met up with mutual old work friends and we hit it off. We hung out all night and have been communicating ever since. I'm taking her out to dinner and drinks Friday. Still trying to figure out where though...

It really feels good to feel these feelings again after so long. I mean I'm not looking to jump into something serious right now and this could very well turn out to be just a fling, but just hanging out with a woman again and feeling like someone wants to be around me and has feelings towards me again is awesome. 

So yea...that's what's going on with me right now... :grin2:


----------



## Chuck71

LOL sounded just like me a year n 1/2 ago. NO expectations.... as FSJ said about DeMello,

"enjoy it for what it is, in the moment" Took me about the same amount of time to actually 

feel "that feeling" again after post-D g/f. But "that feeling" was first time, comparison-wise, 

in 20 years. You will know when that happens....... enjoy it until it happens with, whomever.

Sending you "Back in the Saddle" from Aerosmith


----------



## MrPack

Just texting alone throughout the past few days with her feels good. It's literally been over 12 years since I've been in this position. I keep second guessing myself but then trying to keep myself calm, cool and collected. Should be interesting Friday night when we hangout again... 

I'm 32 years old but feel like I'm 16 again. This is weird for me but in a good way.


----------



## Marc878

You don't get your pipes cleaned they'll cause you Health problems. You don't want that do you?

If this doesn't work out start hanging out in the produce section of a good grocery store. Pick out a cucumber and when a good looking woman walks by just say "mines bigger".


----------



## Absurdist

MrPack said:


> Thank you!
> 
> Sorry I haven't posted in a while. I've been good, had a little set back recently with my anxiety but am already feeling better.
> 
> I would also like to say that I met a girl last weekend. Well we knew each other many years ago...we used to be coworkers about 10 years ago. Anyway we met up with mutual old work friends and we hit it off. We hung out all night and have been communicating ever since. I'm taking her out to dinner and drinks Friday. Still trying to figure out where though...
> 
> It really feels good to feel these feelings again after so long. I mean I'm not looking to jump into something serious right now and this could very well turn out to be just a fling, but just hanging out with a woman again and feeling like someone wants to be around me and has feelings towards me again is awesome.
> 
> So yea...that's what's going on with me right now... :grin2:



Dang. @TooNice and @Pluto2 missed their chance.

MrPack - wait till she meets your pup. :wink2:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chuck71

Just don't start listening to Papa Roach too much. And be yourself.......... 

I'm 44 and I was 16 again for most of this year. Even pulled out an old Motley Crue cassette.


----------



## MrPack

marc878 said:


> you don't get your pipes cleaned they'll cause you health problems. You don't want that do you?
> 
> If this doesn't work out start hanging out in the produce section of a good grocery store. Pick out a cucumber and when a good looking woman walks by just say "mines bigger".


hahahahahahaha!


----------



## MrPack

Absurdist said:


> Dang. @TooNice and @Pluto2 missed their chance.
> 
> MrPack - wait till she meets your pup. :wink2:
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She met my my pup last Saturday night! :wink2:

Before everyone starts the ooooooooo...she didn't stay and I didn't get my pipes cleaned lol.


----------



## Tron

Marc878 said:


> If this doesn't work out start hanging out in the produce section of a good grocery store. Pick out a cucumber and when a good looking woman walks by just say "mines bigger".


LOL.

Is this what we call "game" these days?


----------



## Marc878

MrPack said:


> She met my my pup last Saturday night! :wink2:
> 
> Before everyone starts the ooooooooo...she didn't stay and I didn't get my pipes cleaned lol.


Failure is not an option here. Get a cuter dog!!!!!


----------



## farsidejunky

Marc878 said:


> Failure is not an option here. Get a cuter dog!!!!!


:ROFL:

I think Marc IS questioning your game, Pack.

Nice update BTW.


----------



## Chuck71

Just don't do the Bobby Knight "game face"


----------



## MrPack

You guys are killing me! Updates to come Saturday...


----------



## Marc878

We need stats. Age, Hair, eye color, length, height, weight, etc.

Send me a copy of her bank statements, 3 yrs of W2's and I'll review them to see if she's worthy.

I'm in finance so ..........

We have to thoroughly check her out before you're allowed the third date. 

A pic of her mother too. History has to be investigated thoroughly!!!!!!


----------



## Chuck71

Your view of her mother is..... more important than you realize....

I've seen the best, and the worst


----------



## honcho

Chuck71 said:


> Your view of her mother is..... more important than you realize....
> 
> I've seen the best, and the worst


I should have run the first time I met my crazy ex's mother......


----------



## MrPack

Friday night went REALLY well... We hung out again today and I think I'll continue seeing her... See how things go. Feeling very good about myself for the first time in a very long time. I've missed this. And no I'm not falling head over heals for her but I'm liking what's going on so far!


----------



## Absurdist

MrPack said:


> Friday night went REALLY well... We hung out again today and I think I'll continue seeing her... See how things go. Feeling very good about myself for the first time in a very long time. I've missed this. And no I'm not falling head over heals for her but I'm liking what's going on so far!



Go slow MrPack. Y'all can run off to the south of France next week :yay::yay:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marc878

MrPack said:


> Friday night went REALLY well... We hung out again today and I think I'll continue seeing her... See how things go. Feeling very good about myself for the first time in a very long time. I've missed this. And no I'm not falling head over heals for her but I'm liking what's going on so far!


Bout time!!!! >


----------



## karlmazur5

I don't know

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk


----------



## farsidejunky

Pack:

I am glad to see dating suits you.

Just be careful. It is important to understand why you were struggling to find happiness when alone, and then find it with a dating partner.

Otherwise, have a good time.


----------



## Chuck71

As in..... if you do not love yourself, WTF should you expect another person to?


----------



## MrPack

It's already feeling weird. She's literally wanting to hangout ALL the time. I'm trying to be true to myself and keep this casual and fun for now. But I'm worried a talk is in the cards soon about how fast she seems to be moving. I cannot let myself get wrapped up too fast... I need to be selfish right now and take care of me... I'm not ready for anything serious. However, she is a great woman and I do not want to make her feel bad so yea I'm doing some thinking. 

I'm not kidding she has wanted to hangout everyday since Thursday last week. She's already invited me over to her house to meet her 5 year old son...Seems a little fast in my eyes...but then again I've been out of the game for a while. 

I dunno...


----------



## Chuck71

MrPack said:


> It's already feeling weird. She's literally wanting to hangout ALL the time. I'm trying to be true to myself and keep this casual and fun for now. But I'm worried a talk is in the cards soon about how fast she seems to be moving. I cannot let myself get wrapped up too fast... I need to be selfish right now and take care of me... I'm not ready for anything serious. However, she is a great woman and I do not want to make her feel bad so yea I'm doing some thinking.
> 
> I'm not kidding she has wanted to hangout everyday since Thursday last week. She's already invited me over to her house to meet her 5 year old son...Seems a little fast in my eyes...but then again I've been out of the game for a while.
> 
> I dunno...


I posted the 4 types you meet on your thread didn't I? Proceed with caution, but have "fun"

I learned from my pop and also from my psych background, communicate often as possible

if you like her.... they always tell their secrets. Watch for the red flags.

Had a guy I took under my wing after a bad D and a horrid bad LTR, he ignored... he's in another

horrid LTR. Learn from your mistakes or ye shall repeat them.


----------



## Marc878

Slow it down. Tell her you're taking it slow. This is your life not hers.

She maybe seeing a good meal ticket or maybe in a rebound herself.


----------



## Satya

Way too soon to meet her son.


----------



## Absurdist

Was that you I saw in Jared's? :surprise:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

MrPack said:


> It's already feeling weird. She's literally wanting to hangout ALL the time. I'm trying to be true to myself and keep this casual and fun for now. But I'm worried a talk is in the cards soon about how fast she seems to be moving. I cannot let myself get wrapped up too fast... I need to be selfish right now and take care of me... I'm not ready for anything serious. However, she is a great woman and I do not want to make her feel bad so yea I'm doing some thinking.
> 
> I'm not kidding she has wanted to hangout everyday since Thursday last week. She's already invited me over to her house to meet her 5 year old son...Seems a little fast in my eyes...but then again I've been out of the game for a while.
> 
> I dunno...


*NO!*

You should not be dating ANY woman more than once a week, for at least the first month or two, while you get to know her better. And no more than 2 or 3 phone calls a week. The fact that she is doing this - as you know - is a good sign that she has problems or, at the very least, is so desperate to get ANY man back in the house that this will be a disaster.


----------



## Chuck71

Pac-Man.... I dated a girl around my age earlier this year. We had quite a few connections. I then viewed 

her bash his dad, "You're daddy don't" "You're daddy shouldn't" "You're daddy should"

right.... in front of me. Yes she was fresh off the D but to transfer all that hate, on the teen age kid....

But she said she was already over him. LOL I thought otherwise. Guess who else would have 

received her anger dumps had I stuck around.... one guess!!!

I'm not saying she is this type but you WILL run into this quite often, I promise.

If she vagina bombs you, you best raise that red flag detector high as you can.

In my case, I was @ 50k and I saw everything. I walked....


----------



## PeKyng

I have read many posts, and it amazes me how many men are and have been fighting for their marriages. Yet, we are the ones who find it so difficult to move forward, while they do so without fear or memory of promise. Learning to trust again, and to move beyond the betrayal is the hardest thing that I have ever tried to do.


----------



## Chuck71

PeKyng said:


> I have read many posts, and it amazes me how many men are and have been fighting for their marriages. Yet, we are the ones who find it so difficult to move forward, while they do so without fear or memory of promise. Learning to trust again, and to move beyond the betrayal is the hardest thing that I have ever tried to do.


Setting boundaries, sticking to them.

Never be afraid to walk away.

Train them how to treat you.

Not rocket science


----------



## ABHale

turnera said:


> *NO!*
> 
> You should not be dating ANY woman more than once a week, for at least the first month or two, while you get to know her better. And no more than 2 or 3 phone calls a week. The fact that she is doing this - as you know - is a good sign that she has problems or, at the very least, is so desperate to get ANY man back in the house that this will be a disaster.


Or she found a good man and doesn't want to lose him. 

Just take it slow. 

You made your mistake when you didn't confront your exe with the text messages from the very start. That would have resolved this sooner I think. With her past and you rug sweeping it, the normal conclusion is that she was cheating again with the bartender in a EA, PA or both. You finding that out from the start would hurt like hell but you would have never been in limbo.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MrPack

Absurdist said:


> Was that you I saw in Jared's? :surprise:
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


NO!!!!!!!


----------



## MrPack

Dating is hard lol...


----------



## farsidejunky

MrPack said:


> Dating is hard lol...


Only if you put too much emphasis on it, Pack. That means you aren't ready yet.


----------



## Chuck71

MrPack said:


> Dating is hard lol...


Remember Padawan, make yourself available... they will come to you.


----------



## ABHale

MrPack said:


> Dating is hard lol...


Take a deep breath and just make it going out as friends. 

No pressure then. 

Relax, talk and get a bite.

You are making to big of a deal about it. 

But like you said, you are in need of the comfort only a woman can give. You been with out it for so long it is making you feel scared now that you are feeling it again. Scared because of what your wife did. Believe in yourself and take it slow. Let this lady you are seeing a little know that this has to go slow. Be up front and honest about it. If she works with you to help you thru it, then great. If not, better to find it out now and not waste your time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Pluto2

@TooNice and I can always come over to set her straight.

See her when you want to, say no when it feels right. Remember you can say no to anything and if she gets testy, then walk away from her agenda and stick to yours.


----------



## MrPack

Update. We are still spending time together and I am still really enjoying it. We both still seem to be on the same page and she hasn't been as "smothering" as she was a bit ago. And by the way I'm going country dancing with her Saturday so wish me luck! I am NOT a dancer at all...She's big into two step and has been wanting to teach me so why not!?

I hope you all have a great thanksgiving with family and friends! I'll let you all know how the night out dancing goes lol.
@TooNice AND @Pluto2 ... If things get weird/nasty I will let you know so you can come save me!


----------



## farsidejunky

Nice update, Pack.


----------



## Marc878

Ok now listen up. 

Get a good pair of boots. I'd recommend Justin's. Something simple like tan, etc. You don't want to look like a damn dude. 
It'll make you look taller. Slim fitting jeans and a good cologne like Polo Blue.

If she wears spurs you're in trouble!!!! 

Now you need to figure out how to repay us for all this priceless wisdom.

Oh, get your pipes cleaned!!!!!! Two or three times would be s good start!

Get out there!!!! It's way past time.

Cmon man!!!!


----------



## ABHale

Happy Thanksgiving and have fun Saturday.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Absurdist

Looks like MrPack has enrolled in a two step relationship program...

Just don't break her toes and you'll be OK.


----------



## Chuck71

Ease up cowpoke...... watch the road not the bright city lights. Let her earn the chance to go with you.

Do you give your pet a treat before you ask the task? You train people how to treat you.

But yeah... nice feeling ain't it! Mention it before you ask her. You are Pac-Man.....

not Pack.... women love mystery even if they know the end game. When you hand it to them on

a silver platter, they lose respect. Not all..... but most today, under 45 do.

Sad but true


----------



## ReturntoZero

MrPack said:


> Hate to break it to you guys but we all ended up going to a karaoke bar instead of country dancing. It was a great night until the uber drive tried to steal her wallet at the end of the night. I'll save you all from the long story but we recovered her wallet with all the belongings and money.
> 
> Yes...I did sing haha. We sang "I got you babe" lol...
> 
> She did say something about how I'm still not in the clear and she will be taking me dancing soon... When that does happen I'll let you all now.
> 
> On a side note my good friend and his wife have an annual holiday party Saturday the 17th. I feel like I should maybe hold off a bit before I invite her to come with me? I mean it's still 3 weeks away. Or am I thinking into it too much and should just ask her? She's met a few of my friends already so it wouldn't be that big a deal.


Karaoke really helped me get with a fun group of people and get some "interest" from opposite sex friends.

You take the new flame to meet the group and they tell you what they think. Not openly of course, but you can tell who they like.

How did you end up at Karaoke? Your idea or hers?

As Chuck will be quick to point out, you need to lead. Have a plan. That's sexy and mysterious.


----------



## lam1976

I don't know your story am new here, but just am not sure I understand how any marriage can work if your wife is not as committed as you are to the marriage. I am nurse and can't imagine med school and the stress and toll it will take, but I do know that school is not as bad as the career stress wise. No one person can bear all the weight, and though your marriage should be number one priority and you should never do anything to jeopardize reconciling, do not lie to yourself and stay actively involved and consumed with a marriage that may never rekindle. A career is important but at what point is a spouse more important? You two should have the same views, if not what are you waiting for? Don't move on just don't stop your life and spend all your energy worrying about things, like time frame, that you have no control over. Find some activities, friends, hobbies a part time job..... anything to help take focus off issues. Let her know you will be ready when she is and leave the ball in her court. Good luck.


----------



## Absurdist

lam1976 said:


> I don't know your story am new here, but just am not sure I understand how any marriage can work if your wife is not as committed as you are to the marriage. I am nurse and can't imagine med school and the stress and toll it will take, but I do know that school is not as bad as the career stress wise. No one person can bear all the weight, and though your marriage should be number one priority and you should never do anything to jeopardize reconciling, do not lie to yourself and stay actively involved and consumed with a marriage that may never rekindle. A career is important but at what point is a spouse more important? You two should have the same views, if not what are you waiting for? Don't move on just don't stop your life and spend all your energy worrying about things, like time frame, that you have no control over. Find some activities, friends, hobbies a part time job..... anything to help take focus off issues. Let her know you will be ready when she is and leave the ball in her court. Good luck.



Uhhhhh....

It might be helpful to read the thread. MrPack has been divorced for several months and is now dating someone new.


----------



## lam1976

Absurdist said:


> Uhhhhh....
> 
> It might be helpful to read the thread. MrPack has been divorced for several months and is now dating someone new.


thanks for insight, I actually saw that it was old before posting  so sorry but am glad he is dating and moved on with his life


----------



## MrPack

Well things are still going well with me and this girl. She is coming with me to the holiday party and she actually hung out with me and my friends for a few hours this past Friday. It went well...my friends are pretty sarcastic people and she fit right in. All I can say is that I am still happy with the way things are going, I've noticed my anxiety has gone down, my self confidence has gone up and I'm just overall happier. We aren't spending every minute together but we are spending a good amount of time together. She sat through the whole Packer game with me yesterday so that says something!

On a side note my company started a "rotational program" where they will swap two people from different departments and have them work for 6-12 months in a new position. Well management had a meeting a few weeks ago and I was the one they chose to be the guinea pig. Currently I'm working on proposals but will be more on the procurement end of things starting the 1st of next year. If anything it'll be another notch on my belt and something to beef up my resume. 

I'm finally feeling better about my life. Feels good to be out of the rut that I had been in this past year.


----------



## Absurdist

Dang MrPack. With all this new found confidence, you may have to show Aaron Rodgers how it is done. :grin2:


----------



## Absurdist

The party fast approaches. Whatja gonna do Mr Pack?


----------



## Chuck71

Pac Man..... please delete this post after it is resolved but.... I keep seeing updated posts on this thread on CP but when I come here, last post was 12-2 ???????


----------



## socal04

i sympathize... hang in there... im in limbo also for about 6 months


----------



## MrPack

what the heck is going on with this post??? It's showing old stuff...


----------



## honcho

Merry Christmas Mr. Pack, you got your first present today with the Packers beating the vikings. Hope the holidays are treating you well.


----------



## Absurdist

MrPack - your private message inbox is full. You need to clean up your inbox and delete some of the messages. You won't be able to get our sagely advice unless you get out the mop and bucket. :wink2:


----------



## MrPack

Absurdist said:


> MrPack - your private message inbox is full. You need to clean up your inbox and delete some of the messages. You won't be able to get our sagely advice unless you get out the mop and bucket. :wink2:


hahah I'm slacking!! I'll get that cleaned ASAP!


----------



## MrPack

All clean! Hope you all had a great Xmas. I'm off this entire week aside from logging in every morning for a couple hours. Yesterday I spent a couple hours at a place called "Jump Street" with "the girl" and her son and little sister. It's basically a giant warehouse with different trampoline type activities. I'm not only sore today but also got yelled at by some 16 year old worker for rough housing...whoops!


----------



## farsidejunky

You have met her child already?

Are you two rushing this?

Lightly pump the brakes a bit, Pack. I don't want to rain on your parade, but make sure you ready for "this level of commitment". And yes, meeting/spending time with her kid makes it "this level of commitment".


----------



## Chuck71

farsidejunky said:


> You have met her child already?
> 
> Are you two rushing this?
> 
> Lightly pump the brakes a bit, Pack. I don't want to rain on your parade, but make sure you ready for "this level of commitment". And yes, meeting/spending time with her kid makes it "this level of commitment".


Refer to my post #1358. You're feeling stuff you haven't felt in several years.... we get that. Damn I know you feel

10 feet tall. You may want to read my current thread.... see what happened earlier this year. I'll be glad to post the four types you

will run into if you date (mainly older) women.... most, not all, apply to younger females too. We're just looking out for you.

A couple posters who follow your thread, also follow mine..... they will not hesitate to warn me / call me out. That's what I want because....

sometimes that's what I need......


----------



## Archangel2

MrPack - Hope you are doing well.


----------



## Absurdist

Archangel2 said:


> MrPack - Hope you are doing well.


He's doing well but he's still trying to figure out who he is.


Heck I'm in my mid sixties and I'm still a work in progress. If someone figures out who I might be, please call BR549 with updated info.


----------



## MrPack

Hey everyone. Sorry I've been M.I.A for a bit. Just been busy with work and this whole dating thing. It's still going good with this girl and I'm really enjoying my time with her. Work has been crazy busy but also boring in my new role. 

We've had our little hiccups here and there but other than that we are still getting along great. 

I hope you all are doing well!


----------



## Chuck71

LOL define hiccup


----------



## TooNice

MrPack said:


> Hey everyone. Sorry I've been M.I.A for a bit. Just been busy with work and this whole dating thing. It's still going good with this girl and I'm really enjoying my time with her. Work has been crazy busy but also boring in my new role.
> 
> We've had our little hiccups here and there but other than that we are still getting along great.
> 
> I hope you all are doing well!



So nice to hear from you, Mr. Pack... and with a good update, at that! :grin2:


----------



## MrPack

Chuck71 said:


> LOL define hiccup


We had a little disagreement last week. She was asking a lot of questions regarding my failed marriage and my past with other women. I got a little defensive and thought she was prying/trying to dig up some dirt or find something wrong with me. Long story short I explained to her that this is still new to me and I still get a little uncomfortable talking about details regarding my divorce and stuff. Went home that night with obviously both of us upset. First thing the next morning she sent me a text apologizing if she made me feel uncomfortable and that she respects my feelings. She made some comment about how "we are still in the figuring each other out phase", which I agree with. So yea I made my point and she seemed to understand.

Other than that it's been good.


----------



## farsidejunky

Did you apologize? Honestly it sound more like your issue than hers.


----------



## Chuck71

Ahhh..... emotionally sizing you up. Pretty early to be probing that deep. Stay @ 50k.....

watch for the red flags.


----------



## turnera

I think it's prudent to ask - before I got too attached. I would want to know why your other relationships failed, whether you always blame the women, if you get emotional (bad or good) about it, and how enlightened and laid back you are.

What I saw was you getting insecure and lashing out.

Which wouldn't happen (as much) if you were waiting longer to date and giving yourself time to get to know yourself better.


----------



## MrPack

farsidejunky said:


> Did you apologize? Honestly it sound more like your issue than hers.


I did apologize for the way I reacted and apologized if it made her feel bad. Basically just explained my feelings/thoughts and that my reaction wasn't me getting pissed off at her for asking the questions. If anything it was me being uncomfortable and possibly a little insecure...I can admit that.


----------



## Chuck71

MrPack said:


> I did apologize for the way I reacted and apologized if it made her feel bad. Basically just explained my feelings/thoughts and that my reaction wasn't me getting pissed off at her for asking the questions. If anything it was me being uncomfortable and possibly a little insecure...I can admit that.


It's not the questions they ask....

it's the response you give.


----------



## farsidejunky

Chuck71 said:


> It's not the questions they ask....
> 
> it's the response you give.


This.

Pack, we all know you are still healing. Why I am really working on this for a moment is that you have zero reason to get angry with her asking questions.

Granted, the reason she was really honing in on this likely speaks to insecurity within her as well, but what is leading you to feel that way?

"We both wanted different things from life, and we thought we could overcome that difference. I was willing to set those things aside for the sake of the marriage; she was not."


----------



## Chuck71

Pac-Man..... Just from my personal experience.... I do not "open up" about my past until at least

three months in. Granted I'm a very private person. I would have told your ?gf? "my XW is now a witch

doctor in Zimbabwe." But.... that's just me. I can't count the times I have spoken to 

females on the phone, haven't met, and they just blurt out their life story. Granted I am in the 

psych field and sometimes I probe questions which call for an extensive answer.

But for the most part..... when someone just spills out their life history early on.... red flag.

"You want to know -me-..... stick around, you'll have all your questions answered"


----------



## TooNice

MrPack said:


> If anything it was me being uncomfortable and possibly a little insecure...I can admit that.


This is pretty important. And says a good deal about you. 

Has she dated much? I know that I have dated a bit more than you have, and one thing I have noticed is that people seem to be distrustful when they meet a good person. We go through so many jerks (men and women both), that when we meet someone who appears to be decent, we wait for the shoe to drop. It's sad, but I've seen it time and time again. (And I admit, I am guilty of it!)

As long as you keep talking things through, that's what matters.


----------



## MrPack

Well I'm a single man again. I don't really feel like getting into it right now but I will say that I ended things. Basically just felt myself settling and ignoring red flags, moving too fast and personality differences. 

Today has been a horrible day to say the least. I'll jump back on tomorrow to explain more. I'm fine just feeling bad about having to end it. She didn't take it well.


----------



## Marc878

Hey if it's not working it is what it is. Better to cut it off now than later.


----------



## golfpanther

MrPack said:


> Well I'm a single man again. I don't really feel like getting into it right now but I will say that I ended things. Basically just felt myself settling and ignoring red flags, moving too fast and personality differences.
> 
> Today has been a horrible day to say the least. I'll jump back on tomorrow to explain more. I'm fine just feeling bad about having to end it. She didn't take it well.


Read your thread for a while, and I'm really sorry to hear this. But if you were the one ending it after seeing red flags, it's definitely for the best.

Hope you feel better soon.


----------



## Chuck71

MrPack said:


> Well I'm a single man again. I don't really feel like getting into it right now but I will say that I ended things. Basically just felt myself settling and ignoring red flags, moving too fast and personality differences.
> 
> Today has been a horrible day to say the least. I'll jump back on tomorrow to explain more. I'm fine just feeling bad about having to end it. She didn't take it well.


You sound EXACTLY like I did back in mid-October when I was forced to end things with DC.

It sucks... really does. I felt things with her I hadn't felt since I met my XW in '97.

But when you get to 50k feet and observe without emotion... it ALL makes sense.

Knotted up stomach, can't eat, can't think clearly....it will subside in time.

Keep in mind, you could have ignored these for a couple years and..... well you know what I'm getting at.

Which of the four types was she? My money is on insecure.


----------



## Pluto2

Very proud of you Mr. P. There were red flags, you recognized them as such, and you took action. Good job!

I know it hurts, mostly because you are an inherently good person. To paraphrase *Friends* "she wasn't your lobster"


----------



## MrPack

Thanks everyone. Its been a tough couple days, didn't think I'd struggle this much after breaking up with someone that I was only with for 3 months. Feels like we crammed a 9 month relationship into 3 months...part of the reason I got scared away I guess.

Aside from me starting to notice that our personalities and lifestyles weren't meshing like I had hoped I also started feeling like I wasn't ready for this big relationship commitment with her. Not saying I don't want to date right now but I thought I was ready to dive in head first into a serious relationship but I wasn't. Lessons learned I guess. I just hate being the bad guy, even though I know I did nothing wrong I'm sitting here with guilt...hopefully that'll pass soon. Also today was tough, I'm already missing the companionship and even her. She was a very good person and I enjoyed the time we had but there were just too many reservations in my head towards the end there.


----------



## golfpanther

MrPack said:


> Thanks everyone. Its been a tough couple days, didn't think I'd struggle this much after breaking up with someone that I was only with for 3 months. Feels like we crammed a 9 month relationship into 3 months...part of the reason I got scared away I guess.
> 
> Aside from me starting to notice that our personalities and lifestyles weren't meshing like I had hoped I also started feeling like I wasn't ready for this big relationship commitment with her. Not saying I don't want to date right now but I thought I was ready to dive in head first into a serious relationship but I wasn't. Lessons learned I guess. I just hate being the bad guy, even though I know I did nothing wrong I'm sitting here with guilt...hopefully that'll pass soon. Also today was tough, I'm already missing the companionship and even her. She was a very good person and I enjoyed the time we had but there were just too many reservations in my head towards the end there.


It shows a lot of growth and strength on your end to end it despite being able to see that objectively she's a good person.

I can't imagine going into a serious relationship in your situation. Maybe just try to go out and be more casual about it? I know I struggle with the idea of doing that but it would probably be best for a while.


----------



## farsidejunky

You did both of you a favor, Pack. There is no shame in that.


----------



## Chuck71

MrPack said:


> Thanks everyone. Its been a tough couple days, didn't think I'd struggle this much after breaking up with someone that I was only with for 3 months. Feels like we crammed a 9 month relationship into 3 months...part of the reason I got scared away I guess.
> 
> Aside from me starting to notice that our personalities and lifestyles weren't meshing like I had hoped I also started feeling like I wasn't ready for this big relationship commitment with her. Not saying I don't want to date right now but I thought I was ready to dive in head first into a serious relationship but I wasn't. Lessons learned I guess. I just hate being the bad guy, even though I know I did nothing wrong I'm sitting here with guilt...hopefully that'll pass soon. Also today was tough, I'm already missing the companionship and even her. She was a very good person and I enjoyed the time we had but there were just too many reservations in my head towards the end there.


You're still licking your wounds from your D. Main reason most rebounds aren't built to last.

The girl I dated last year who was D about 6 months prior, she was still bitter, understandably 

so. I never saw anything long term but when she berated her XH to her son every chance she

got... I knew it was time to go. Sex was never an issue..... but part of me always thought....

every time she sleeps with me, is it for her feelings for me or.... getting back at her XH.

We're friends now.... talk every now and then. She's still bitter and has went through

two other guys since we dated. She won't admit it but, they left for the same reason I did.

When you're ready.... you'll know it. Remember.... took me almost 3.5 years for me

to "fall" again after my D.


----------



## turnera

You really need to learn to be ok by yourself, even welcome it. Only then will you be a good potential partner to someone - when you don't NEED to have someone around.


----------



## MrPack

Man I really didn't expect to be struggling like this. It's been a tough few days. We both had our flaws and I couldn't see myself marrying her or a girl like her for numerous reasons. But I really have been missing her this week. It's like I'm second guessing myself.


----------



## MrPack

Or missing the "idea" of her and the "routine" we had


----------



## farsidejunky

Many of us have said it to you, and I will say it again. Learn how to be happy alone. Otherwise, every time you leave somebody due to incompatibility, you will second-guess yourself.


----------



## turnera

How about renting a cabin up in the woods somewhere for a week. Just BE. It will do you good.


----------



## Betrayedone

I hope you were kind and truthful in your explanation to her...........


----------



## Chuck71

MrPack said:


> Or missing the "idea" of her and the "routine" we had


Pac-Man..... when I ended things with DC... yes it did hurt, a lot.

BUT... I never once second guessed why I did. 

I did with 1st love... and 2nd love.... in the early 90s. I never once second guessed XW or 4th love.

Your gut warned you.... you saw the red flags.... yes some guilt comes with breaking things off.

Tell us.... where do you think you would be in a year, if you ignored those?

Or tell us what the differences were in your personalities / lifestyle....


----------



## Chuck71

turnera said:


> How about renting a cabin up in the woods somewhere for a week. Just BE. It will do you good.


Pac-Man..... I live at the foothills of the Smokies. Can see them from the den in winter.

I take treks every year.... some a few days, some a week. I spent nearly a month once.

You GTFA from phones, internet, humans. Not only is it self-reflection... it was, for me,

a solid form of psychotherapy. It's where I wrote most of my 2nd and 3rd book of my trilogy.


----------



## MrPack

Hey all, just thought I'd check in since it's been over a month. Things are going okay for me. I've been very very busy with work and mostly just hanging out with my buddies. Nothing really new on the dating scene, I have been texting with a girl I knew from many years ago. I got her number through a mutual friend but we've yet to hangout due to schedule differences. 

On another note, I'm still missing the ex GF. Yes you read that right. I'm wondering if I got scared away by the quickness of our relationship...it got serious really fast. Yes we had our differences and she really wasn't the type of girl I pictured myself with but man we had some good times. To be totally honest we've been texting a bit off and on recently. Shes usually the one to initiate the conversations but I'm also replying and engaging. For a while I thought I just missed the idea of her but now I'm realizing that I miss HER just as much. I'm also wondering if I nit picked it her flaws and our differences because I needed a reason to break it off due to me being scared about the commitment. I dunno... No talks yet about us trying it again but I'm walking a thin line here and I know it.

On a lighter note I leave a week from tomorrow for San Diego for a buddies Bachelor party trip! I cant wait...will be good to clear my head a bit!

Anyway, just wanted to vent a little and check in. I'm sure a lot of you will say I'm making a mistake talking with the ex GF again...I guess you could say I'm a little confused right now.


----------



## Chuck71

Which type was your x gf?


Geography always plays a pivotal role. After my break-up with post-D gf in late 2014, I dated a lot. A great deal of first contact to me were females exactly my age to early 50s. 42-51. They usually fell into four categories.... unresolved issues, never wanting to get serious again, utterly bitter, and healthy.

Unresolved issues... usually trust. I don't work well with these. If they have unresolved conflicts from previous relationships, I want no part of it. They should work on themselves THEN start dating. These show their red flags quickly... if you are not paying attention, they vagina bomb you and within six months, they want M. They want M first so they can finally unlock that closet full of her skeletons and hope you are a KISA / Mr. Fixer. Once you see these flags early on.... RUN. My last post in LaD Crossroads II gives a perfect example of one.

Never wanting to be serious... now if the woman has kids, most grown or in HS.... near fresh out of a M, I can see why she wouldn't. These want 2-3 nights a week and nothing more. No "where were you on nights you were not with her." Perfectooooo ..... wait about six weeks. Women must have that emotional connection. Maybe not at first, maybe it was just wild kinky sex. Then she wants a LTR, not M mind you, just LTR. Then.... they mix into the unresolved issues and bitterness. Well guys... this comes with most R. Guys..... if you don't want anything more than LTR or hot sex FWB.... this may be worth a try. LT for me.... no, I want kids.

The bitter ones.... fortunately these are spotted easily. Not a day goes by without her going on a tirade about her XH. You can have great sex and be laying in bed, "John never would finish.... he would get his jollies and roll over. He never held me after sex, he would get up and go to the den and watch ESPN or MLB." For some reason guys... you see why John did. These keep scorecards.... "You did more for me in the last month than John did the last three years." But..... when they drink and get nostalgic.... all those great memories she had with John. These are worse than the unresolved issues ones... at least the unresolved can maybe, get past things. These can't and truth be told.... don't want to.

Now the healthy ones... they're hard to find. They worked on themselves and freely admit they played a part in the crumbling of their M. They co-parent healthy and the kid's dad is happy his XW has met someone or at least, does not stir schit. But... this is from a guy's POV dating women. I am fully aware women dating D men has it's own challenges. Most of these are very approachable in terms of talking to. They understand, in my case, I would like to have children. They harbor no ill-will and will say up front.... if you can't see anything down the road because I am too old to have children, I'd love to date you but it can only go so far and.... I want more. Or they still want to date you.... granted both know going forward the other's wants.

From my early 20s to my mid-20s... I dated women in their 30s and even early 40s. I loved the maturity, no drama, no games, no BS. I had a blast! It did stop when I met my future XW.... I was 25, she was 32.

I see an astounding difference in say.... women 10-15 years older than I, circa 1996 and women 10-15 years younger than me today. Their values were so different, growing up in the late 60s, the 70s. Young adulthood in the early 80s.

Today... I feel like I am "dating the children of the women I used to date."


----------



## Absurdist

The old "absence makes the heart go fonder" thing.

You saw a lot of baggage and red flags right? Those things are still there today right?

So what has changed?

Have fun in San Diego. Stay away from Tijuana!!!!


----------



## Pluto2

Chuck71 said:


> Which type was your x gf?
> 
> 
> Geography always plays a pivotal role. After my break-up with post-D gf in late 2014, I dated a lot. A great deal of first contact to me were females exactly my age to early 50s. 42-51. They usually fell into four categories.... unresolved issues, never wanting to get serious again, utterly bitter, and healthy.
> 
> Unresolved issues... usually trust. I don't work well with these. If they have unresolved conflicts from previous relationships, I want no part of it. They should work on themselves THEN start dating. These show their red flags quickly... if you are not paying attention, they vagina bomb you and within six months, they want M. They want M first so they can finally unlock that closet full of her skeletons and hope you are a KISA / Mr. Fixer. Once you see these flags early on.... RUN. My last post in LaD Crossroads II gives a perfect example of one.
> 
> Never wanting to be serious... now if the woman has kids, most grown or in HS.... near fresh out of a M, I can see why she wouldn't. These want 2-3 nights a week and nothing more. No "where were you on nights you were not with her." Perfectooooo ..... wait about six weeks. Women must have that emotional connection. Maybe not at first, maybe it was just wild kinky sex. Then she wants a LTR, not M mind you, just LTR. Then.... they mix into the unresolved issues and bitterness. Well guys... this comes with most R. Guys..... if you don't want anything more than LTR or hot sex FWB.... this may be worth a try. LT for me.... no, I want kids.
> 
> The bitter ones.... fortunately these are spotted easily. Not a day goes by without her going on a tirade about her XH. You can have great sex and be laying in bed, "John never would finish.... he would get his jollies and roll over. He never held me after sex, he would get up and go to the den and watch ESPN or MLB." For some reason guys... you see why John did. These keep scorecards.... "You did more for me in the last month than John did the last three years." But..... when they drink and get nostalgic.... all those great memories she had with John. These are worse than the unresolved issues ones... at least the unresolved can maybe, get past things. These can't and truth be told.... don't want to.
> 
> Now the healthy ones... they're hard to find. They worked on themselves and freely admit they played a part in the crumbling of their M. They co-parent healthy and the kid's dad is happy his XW has met someone or at least, does not stir schit. But... this is from a guy's POV dating women. I am fully aware women dating D men has it's own challenges. Most of these are very approachable in terms of talking to. They understand, in my case, I would like to have children. They harbor no ill-will and will say up front.... if you can't see anything down the road because I am too old to have children, I'd love to date you but it can only go so far and.... I want more. Or they still want to date you.... granted both know going forward the other's wants.
> 
> From my early 20s to my mid-20s... I dated women in their 30s and even early 40s. I loved the maturity, no drama, no games, no BS. I had a blast! It did stop when I met my future XW.... I was 25, she was 32.
> 
> I see an astounding difference in say.... women 10-15 years older than I, circa 1996 and women 10-15 years younger than me today. Their values were so different, growing up in the late 60s, the 70s. Young adulthood in the early 80s.
> 
> Today... I feel like I am "dating the children of the women I used to date."


CHuck I love you but reading your analysis of women on the International Day of the Woman just makes me shake my head.


----------



## Chuck71

Hands Pluto a Pepto bottle, pack of Lucky Strikes, a Long Island tea, and a Redbook magazine.


----------



## Pluto2

Chuck71 said:


> Hands Pluto a Pepto bottle, pack of Lucky Strikes, a Long Island tea, and a Redbook magazine.


0-4


----------



## Chuck71

Pluto2 said:


> 0-4


10-4 good buddy


----------



## MrPack

Absurdist said:


> The old "absence makes the heart go fonder" thing.
> 
> You saw a lot of baggage and red flags right? Those things are still there today right?
> 
> So what has changed?
> 
> Have fun in San Diego. Stay away from Tijuana!!!!


The red flags I saw could potentially be something to resolve. Yes there were some personality differences that will not change but I feel like I was nit picking at everything in my head trying to find a way out. I was scared at how fast it went. If things do get going again with her it'll definitely be a lot slower. 

After talking to "some" of my friends and some coworkers, everyone has baggage in all shapes and sizes. Hell I have a lot myself. I used to think the bad out weighed the good with her but as time has gone on I feel like the good may have out weighed the bad. We'll see what if anything happens... I cant help how I feel and have felt the past at least 2-3 weeks. Maybe I'm chasing something that wont work out but I feel like I might want to give it one more shot and would regret it if I didn't.

This whole adult dating thing is hard!!! lol. 

As for San Diego...we will NOT be anywhere near Tijuana...been there done that many years ago when I was younger...told myself never again!


----------



## Archangel2

MrPack said:


> The red flags I saw could potentially be something to resolve. Yes there were some personality differences that will not change but I feel like I was nit picking at everything in my head trying to find a way out. I was scared at how fast it went. If things do get going again with her it'll definitely be a lot slower.
> 
> After talking to "some" of my friends and some coworkers, everyone has baggage in all shapes and sizes. Hell I have a lot myself. I used to think the bad out weighed the good with her but as time has gone on I feel like the good may have out weighed the bad. We'll see what if anything happens... I cant help how I feel and have felt the past at least 2-3 weeks. Maybe I'm chasing something that wont work out but I feel like I might want to give it one more shot and would regret it if I didn't./QUOTE]
> 
> If this rebooted relationship is to succeed, she has to become your "buddy." If you cannot get to that state, then allow it to die a merciful death.


----------



## Chuck71

Many people chase things that aren't "really there"

In life, philosophy, religion, economic status... and relationships.


----------



## MrPack

Archangel2 said:


> MrPack said:
> 
> 
> 
> The red flags I saw could potentially be something to resolve. Yes there were some personality differences that will not change but I feel like I was nit picking at everything in my head trying to find a way out. I was scared at how fast it went. If things do get going again with her it'll definitely be a lot slower.
> 
> After talking to "some" of my friends and some coworkers, everyone has baggage in all shapes and sizes. Hell I have a lot myself. I used to think the bad out weighed the good with her but as time has gone on I feel like the good may have out weighed the bad. We'll see what if anything happens... I cant help how I feel and have felt the past at least 2-3 weeks. Maybe I'm chasing something that wont work out but I feel like I might want to give it one more shot and would regret it if I didn't./QUOTE]
> 
> If this rebooted relationship is to succeed, she has to become your "buddy." If you cannot get to that state, then allow it to die a merciful death.
> 
> 
> 
> What do you mean "she has to become my buddy?"
Click to expand...


----------



## Archangel2

MrPack said:


> Archangel2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> What do you mean "she has to become my buddy?"
> 
> 
> 
> Somebody who you might want to hang out with, to go to a ballgame with or do a day trip to say, Fenimore, WI to buy some cheese. Someone who you are willing to spend time with doing the mundane day to day things (not in a dating situation), like going to the laundromat.
> 
> Comprenez?
Click to expand...


----------



## Absurdist

Archangel2 said:


> MrPack said:
> 
> 
> 
> Somebody who you might want to hang out with, to go to a ballgame with or do a day trip to say, Fenimore, WI to buy some cheese. Someone who you are willing to spend time with doing the mundane day to day things (not in a dating situation), like going to the laundromat.
> 
> Comprenez?
> 
> 
> 
> You must leave the toilet seat down. No more burping and farting. She must be willing to wash your Haynes while she sings. Fold 'em too. If needed, you should invest in some Viagra one paks and tell her she's way hotter than the milfs in the commercial. See how easy this is? Oh, and learn line dancing. Make the Darlin Mambo your top priority. Put plenty of Jake Owen on the box. You got this MrPack.
Click to expand...


----------



## MrPack

Went to happy hour tonight with work buddies after a long terrible day. The girl is coming over after she puts her son to bed (her dad is staying with her for a little while, there will be an adult at her house while shes here). Anyway my point is that I called her after happy hour and she asked if I wanted to come over and eat dinner, I told her I needed to go home to catch up on some work (which I do). She offered to come over just to hangout for a couple hours. It's hard to explain but it feels good and right when we are together just watching TV, or having drinks/dinner or bumming around running errands. A week from this Saturday she is coming with me to a friends Bday party at this outdoor bar where you play sand volleyball and other outdoor activities. She's nervous but she wants to come. I'm pretty happy right now. A TAM member/friend told me to take it one day at a time and that's exactly what I'm doing. 

P.S....

I've acquired a treadmill recently and have been eating better and have lost some weight and leaned up a bit. Treadmill and gym has been helping. Just gotta stick to it.


----------



## Archangel2

Absurdist said:


> ... *She must be willing to wash your Haynes while she sings. Fold 'em too.* ...


 @Absurdist - If you did this, then I am in awe of you.

:allhail:

I couldn't get my wife to do that before we were married!

Pardon the t/j Mr. Pack


----------



## Archangel2

MrPack said:


> ... She offered to come over just to hangout for a couple hours. It's hard to explain but it feels good and right when we are together just watching TV, or having drinks/dinner or bumming around running errands. A week from this Saturday she is coming with me to a friends Bday party at this outdoor bar where you play sand volleyball and other outdoor activities. She's nervous but she wants to come. I'm pretty happy right now. A TAM member/friend told me to take it one day at a time and that's exactly what I'm doing...


Looks promising. When my wife and I were dating, I was the all-in romantic type while she wanted to go slow. She always made the point that you can love someone, but you really need to like them first. I hope your gf gets to play sand volleyball with you this Saturday, and you both like to be around each other doing the mundane day-to-day stuff.

PS - My wife must have known something, because we have been married 40+ years.


----------



## MrPack

Just dropping by to say hello. It's been a while since I've posted anything. Things are still going good with the GF and everything else. Really cant complain to much about anything at the moment other than work crap!

Hope all is well with you guys.


----------



## Destrot

I am new to all of this and I truly wish I wasn't but I read your story and had to tell you how sorry I am you are going through this right now.


----------



## MrPack

Destrot said:


> I am new to all of this and I truly wish I wasn't but I read your story and had to tell you how sorry I am you are going through this right now.


Thank you. I am in a much better place now...thank god.


----------



## MrPack

Well, I guess I spoke too soon with my last post. I'm single once again. Back to the drawing board!


----------



## Tron

Wasn't meant to be...NEXT!


----------



## Absurdist

MrPack... deja vu? Seems like we had this conversation exactly two months ago. Go back and read your post #1418.


----------



## Chuck71

MrPack said:


> Well, I guess I spoke too soon with my last post. I'm single once again. Back to the drawing board!


Remember Pac-Man..... some people are just meant to come into your life for a short time but

leave lasting impressions. Not everyone you date should be considered for future consideration

as being "The One" for Pac-Man MMXVII. You learned from her.... as she did you. Take what you learned

and utilize it for the future. You're about ten years younger than me... you are still young enough

to go out and get your freak on. Be who Pac-Man wants to be..... guess what.....

Being Pac-Man will attract the types of females Pac-Man would be attracted to.


----------



## turnera

MrPack said:


> Well, I guess I spoke too soon with my last post. I'm single once again. Back to the drawing board!


Which would be why I've told you that it is TOO SOON for you to be dating.

ETA: Going OUT with different women, by all means. But dating ONE woman? Hell no. Not for at least a year. Try on a wide variety of women to see and understand that there are many many different kinds, and that you have no idea yet which one is your true fit.


----------



## Thestarsarefalling

I read your whole thread and it was interesting, relatable and I feel like I learned from it. So thanks for sharing and hope the best for you.


----------



## Archangel2

MrPack said:


> Well, I guess I spoke too soon with my last post. I'm single once again. Back to the drawing board!


So what happened?


----------



## SunCMars

turnera said:


> Which would be why I've told you that it is TOO SOON for you to be dating.
> 
> ETA: Going OUT with different women, by all means. But dating ONE woman? Hell no. Not for at least a year. *Try on a wide variety of women *to see and understand that there are many many different kinds, and that you have no idea yet which one is your true fit.


I would love to hear your concept of "trying on".

The unadulterated version.

Or better yet, the adult version.

Forgo the vanilla ice cream, Puleese!

Bring on the Neapolitan or the Moose Droppings I scream.


----------



## turnera

IDK, in my world it means going out with someone and, if you both feel like it, going back to someone's place and having a fun night - with no strings attached. And if they don't feel like it, that's cool too. And then NOT seeing them two or three times a week after that, because you're busy being out meeting other people and, again, just having fun.


----------



## MrPack

Archangel2 said:


> So what happened?


To make a long story short we literally started fighting every single time we would go out with her friends or mine. The only time that it felt good was when it was just the two of us sitting on the damn couch watching TV and the sex was good but other than that it was starting to turn into more of a friendship, at least for me anyway. I don't want to sound shallow but we come from totally different backgrounds family wise. She's got constant drama surrounding her from her mom to her brother to her dad and so on. There always seemed to be some sort of drama going on within her family. 

But to be honest, as time went on this second try it just starting becoming apparent that our personalities were really starting to show and they were not meshing at all. I had fun with her at times and yes I miss her and all that but I just know that it wasn't meant for something long term.


----------



## Marc878

Run!!! Faster!!!


----------



## Chuck71

MrPack said:


> To make a long story short we literally started fighting every single time we would go out with her friends or mine. The only time that it felt good was when it was just the two of us sitting on the damn couch watching TV and the sex was good but other than that it was starting to turn into more of a friendship, at least for me anyway. I don't want to sound shallow but we come from totally different backgrounds family wise. She's got constant drama surrounding her from her mom to her brother to her dad and so on. There always seemed to be some sort of drama going on within her family.
> 
> But to be honest, as time went on this second try it just starting becoming apparent that our personalities were really starting to show and they were not meshing at all. I had fun with her at times and yes I miss her and all that but I just know that it wasn't meant for something long term.


Her friends and family were nothing like yours. It was a sneak preview of things to come.

As for the drama with her mom.....dad.......brother..... you would have been in for more drama 

than General Hospital. You made the correct choice Pac-Man. Now you got your feet wet....

Refine your picker....


----------



## honcho

MrPack said:


> To make a long story short we literally started fighting every single time we would go out with her friends or mine. The only time that it felt good was when it was just the two of us sitting on the damn couch watching TV and the sex was good but other than that it was starting to turn into more of a friendship, at least for me anyway. I don't want to sound shallow but we come from totally different backgrounds family wise. She's got constant drama surrounding her from her mom to her brother to her dad and so on. There always seemed to be some sort of drama going on within her family.
> 
> But to be honest, as time went on this second try it just starting becoming apparent that our personalities were really starting to show and they were not meshing at all. I had fun with her at times and yes I miss her and all that but I just know that it wasn't meant for something long term.


Drama just becomes a way of life for some people, they don't know what to do if there isn't drama going on. 

You had some fun, you learned some things about what you want and don't want in a real relationship, just apply the lessons learned to the next relationship and plow forward.


----------



## Chuck71

honcho said:


> Drama just becomes a way of life for some people, they don't know what to do if there isn't drama going on.
> 
> You had some fun, you learned some things about what you want and don't want in a real relationship, just apply the lessons learned to the next relationship and plow forward.


110% agree. Pac-Man.... I was with my XW from August 97 to November 12. I then dated UG

from 2013 to most of 2014. So I really never experienced the dating game until 2015.

For almost 18 years, I was spoken for. Have to tell you.... a LOT of people have WAY too much drama.

Tons of broken, bitter, scorned, burned, bandaged up people. Older you get, higher the number.

But as you get older, they're easier to spot. So are the healthy ones too. 

Don't let a pretty face or cute tail fool ya. As most guys say, the crazy women are usually hot

and good in bed.


----------



## turnera

Why be with ANY person with whom you fight all the time?


----------



## MrPack

Hope everyone had a great Memorial Day weekend. 

I'm looking for suggestions on a new self help type book. Something that gears towards help with everyday life choices/career/mental health/success...I've read "No More Mr. Niceguy" looking for something else. I'm sort of feeling like I'm in a bit of a rut with work and just overall. Trying to make small changes but I'll be in Mexico for a family trip in a few weeks and good use a good book. 

Any suggestions would be great appreciated!


----------



## TooNice

MrPack said:


> Any suggestions would be great appreciated!


It's not really in line with what you are specifically asking for, but Eckhart Tolle's "The Power of Now" was one of the most helpful books I have read. It really helped me with being in the moment and accepting everything in life - relationships, career... everything.


----------



## turnera

This one is a heavy read, kind of like reading a physics for dummies book, but it's pretty impressive. Emotional Alchemy - it talks about why we do and think the things we do, relating back to what happened to you in your childhood. Also has some good stuff about how to change it.

Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance

Tuesdays with Morrie

Don't Sweat the Small Stuff

The Power of Habit

Psychocybernetics


----------



## Absurdist

Hold on to your N.U.T.S

The 7 Habits of Highly Effectve People

Rocking the Roles


----------



## MrPack

Not sure what's going on with me but I've been chatting with a girl I met on a dating app. She lives very close to me and has definitely shown interest in meeting me in person. For some reason I have reservations. It's like I miss the female companionship among other things...ALOT...but I also feel like I'm not sure I'm ready to worry about dating someone right now. Yes I have days where I go home from work and do nothing basically saying I do have down time but I'm still liking the fact that I can literally do what I want when I want. Still working on me, physically and mentally is another factor. There are some nerves there regarding meeting a total stranger for drinks, I've never done that before and I guess I'd be afraid of the potential rejection...?

I know some of you have said it's too soon for me to date while some of you have said it is not too early for me to date. Am I just being a paranoid wussy not jumping at the chance to meet new women? lol. When I do go out with friends I have no issues talking to women and in fact got a girls number a few weeks ago but of course I never called her. I feel like I missed out on the whole chasing/dating aspect of life since ExMrsPack and I met at such a young age and were together for such a long time. Then I met the exGF through mutual friends and I even already sort of knew her from work years prior so that wasn't the typical situation either. 

Blahhhhh...this is tough.


----------



## turnera

Your brain knows when you're not ready for something. Listen to it.

And consider this: many people go months, years, decades even without a companion and are perfectly happy. Just having a woman around cos you feel you need one...IMO, that's not good.


----------



## Chuck71

MrPack said:


> Not sure what's going on with me but I've been chatting with a girl I met on a dating app. She lives very close to me and has definitely shown interest in meeting me in person. For some reason I have reservations. It's like I miss the female companionship among other things...ALOT...but I also feel like I'm not sure I'm ready to worry about dating someone right now. Yes I have days where I go home from work and do nothing basically saying I do have down time but I'm still liking the fact that I can literally do what I want when I want. Still working on me, physically and mentally is another factor. There are some nerves there regarding meeting a total stranger for drinks, I've never done that before and I guess I'd be afraid of the potential rejection...?
> 
> I know some of you have said it's too soon for me to date while some of you have said it is not too early for me to date. Am I just being a paranoid wussy not jumping at the chance to meet new women? lol. When I do go out with friends I have no issues talking to women and in fact got a girls number a few weeks ago but of course I never called her. I feel like I missed out on the whole chasing/dating aspect of life since ExMrsPack and I met at such a young age and were together for such a long time. Then I met the exGF through mutual friends and I even already sort of knew her from work years prior so that wasn't the typical situation either.
> 
> Blahhhhh...this is tough.


You are placing way too much importance on a simple "meet n greet." ZERO expectations.

But the only type of interest you have had with a female was... a love interest. 

But you were a teen then, right? Yes the dynamics have changed. If you aren't ready, you just

aren't ready. Nothing wrong with that. If you feel you are but fear what it will bring...

examine your expectations. You want a "wingwoman," a female friend to do stuff with, not a 

ready made LTR after three dates.....-Yes there are plenty of those out there-

I have really gotten used to living alone. 2.5 years. Yes I have "sleepovers" a few times a week

with new gal but it honestly does cut into my "me time."


----------



## honcho

MrPack said:


> Not sure what's going on with me but I've been chatting with a girl I met on a dating app. She lives very close to me and has definitely shown interest in meeting me in person. For some reason I have reservations. It's like I miss the female companionship among other things...ALOT...but I also feel like I'm not sure I'm ready to worry about dating someone right now. Yes I have days where I go home from work and do nothing basically saying I do have down time but I'm still liking the fact that I can literally do what I want when I want. Still working on me, physically and mentally is another factor. There are some nerves there regarding meeting a total stranger for drinks, I've never done that before and I guess I'd be afraid of the potential rejection...?
> 
> I know some of you have said it's too soon for me to date while some of you have said it is not too early for me to date. Am I just being a paranoid wussy not jumping at the chance to meet new women? lol. When I do go out with friends I have no issues talking to women and in fact got a girls number a few weeks ago but of course I never called her. I feel like I missed out on the whole chasing/dating aspect of life since ExMrsPack and I met at such a young age and were together for such a long time. Then I met the exGF through mutual friends and I even already sort of knew her from work years prior so that wasn't the typical situation either.
> 
> Blahhhhh...this is tough.


You should think of your exgf as a "training wheel" girlfriend, you already knew her a little and it was a good learning experience for you. I think you should take this new woman out and just try and have a good time. Don't worry about dating, relationships or overthinking it. After meeting the two of you might not hit it off, who cares. Not every date will lead to serious dating etc. 

It'll give you a better picture of what you may or may not want.


----------



## Archangel2

MrPack said:


> Not sure what's going on with me but I've been chatting with a girl I met on a dating app. She lives very close to me and has definitely shown interest in meeting me in person. For some reason I have reservations. It's like I miss the female companionship among other things...ALOT...but I also feel like I'm not sure I'm ready to worry about dating someone right now. Yes I have days where I go home from work and do nothing basically saying I do have down time but I'm still liking the fact that I can literally do what I want when I want. Still working on me, physically and mentally is another factor. There are some nerves there regarding meeting a total stranger for drinks, I've never done that before and I guess I'd be afraid of the potential rejection...?
> 
> I know some of you have said it's too soon for me to date while some of you have said it is not too early for me to date. Am I just being a paranoid wussy not jumping at the chance to meet new women? lol. When I do go out with friends I have no issues talking to women and in fact got a girls number a few weeks ago but of course I never called her. I feel like I missed out on the whole chasing/dating aspect of life since ExMrsPack and I met at such a young age and were together for such a long time. Then I met the exGF through mutual friends and I even already sort of knew her from work years prior so that wasn't the typical situation either.
> 
> Blahhhhh...this is tough.


I always told my kids that they should treat any meet and greet with a new person as an episode of the Charlie Rose show, and they were in the role of the moderator. The key is to find out anything and everything about this person and use active questioning to get that information. Maybe you should watch a couple of episodes to see what I mean. His approach might become addictive... :smile2:


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## TooNice

Archangel2 said:


> I always told my kids that they should treat any meet and greet with a new person as an episode of the Charlie Rose show, and they were in the role of the moderator. The key is to find out anything and everything about this person and use active questioning to get that information. Maybe you should watch a couple of episodes to see what I mean. His approach might become addictive... :smile2:


I like this approach! I try to use active questioning on first dates... and more often than not, I end up doing very little talking. :| It's a good filter for me - one of these days I will meet a guy who asks questions in return!


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## MrPack

I hope everyone had a great 4th of July weekend. I'm still living the single life, finding it very hard to meet quality women right now...


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## turnera

what hobbies/clubs are you investing in? What volunteering are you doing?


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## Chuck71

MrPack said:


> I hope everyone had a great 4th of July weekend. I'm still living the single life, finding it very hard to meet quality women right now...


A quality woman IS hard to find. It's not like they grow on trees. In general, life damages people.

No kids here and I can look at my XW and LMFAO, especially since she moved back into town.

But Chucky's damaged..... ask what he thinks of M now, as compared to 1997.

What damage are you willing to tolerate and look at yourself in the mirror each morning? That

is the key. I had a low tolerance for drama and games in my 20s. Reason I dated older women.

Yeah WC was an older woman.... yeah I M'd her.... but what she brought to the table was golden.

It was golden for a # of years, then it wasn't. Way it goes. Yo Chuckay... woulds yas do its a gainsa?

If I knew then what I know now? Of course not. But if I were placed back, same scenario ....

of course I would. 98% of us would. You can't look for forever, in advance. It's a move of pure chance.

You search to date..... then date exclusive...... then start a commitment... then etc.

A firm house is built step by step..... if you skip a step.....

You are early / mid 30s, no kids, good job..... trust me, you are sought after. You have the pick of

the lot. Patience Padawan


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## MrPack

I'm just not finding much on the dating app I have. I either match with a very attractive woman who has no job and kids or I match with not so attractive women who do have steady jobs and not much baggage. I understand that with my age a lot of women will have a kid and that is fine but I guess I'm looking for someone who obviously I'm physically attracted to that also has a steady career and isn't still living in the past "finishing school" while living with their parents and bartending. That's what I found with the last girl I met from the app, she had a daughter, lived with her mom, bartended at a sports bar while finishing school although she hasn't been enrolled in over a year . Yea I probably sound shallow with that last comment but its the truth. I wasted many years of my life with a woman who couldn't figure out what she wanted out of life until it was too late for us. 

I'm thinking about deleting the two dating apps I have for a while and just do me and see if I cross paths with anyone. The pressure I'm getting from my friends and family regarding the my dating life or lack thereof is unreal. They all think it is soooooo easy but yet the ones that give me the most pressure are the ones who have been in a relationship for many years and have no clue how the dating scene really is these days. 

okay, rant over.


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## farsidejunky

If it is any consolation, I see the "college student" in exactly the same manner. Truth is truth, and while your match may wish she were in college...she isn't. If she can lie to her self that easily while justifying it, guess who else she can lie to? no, sir...not shallow in any way. Again, truth is truth, and your gut was not wrong in this situation.

As for the pressure you are receiving to date... I used to get much of the same thing. My answer to my mom's pressure for my next wife (and hopefully kids) was to over-share about my dating: 

"Hey mom, yeah, had a date last night. She was only 19, spoke little English, and was a foreign exchange student from Africa...yes, in fact she was black...there wasn't much talking if you know what I mean, mom. At least she wasn't still married like the one I took out last weekend."

There was very little asking or pressuring about my dating life after I started that... :grin2:

As to your search for the right one, patience is your friend. Rushing things will lead to Mrs. Pack #2.


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## honcho

MrPack said:


> I'm just not finding much on the dating app I have. I either match with a very attractive woman who has no job and kids or I match with not so attractive women who do have steady jobs and not much baggage. I understand that with my age a lot of women will have a kid and that is fine but I guess I'm looking for someone who obviously I'm physically attracted to that also has a steady career and isn't still living in the past "finishing school" while living with their parents and bartending. That's what I found with the last girl I met from the app, she had a daughter, lived with her mom, bartended at a sports bar while finishing school although she hasn't been enrolled in over a year . Yea I probably sound shallow with that last comment but its the truth. I wasted many years of my life with a woman who couldn't figure out what she wanted out of life until it was too late for us.
> 
> I'm thinking about deleting the two dating apps I have for a while and just do me and see if I cross paths with anyone. The pressure I'm getting from my friends and family regarding the my dating life or lack thereof is unreal. They all think it is soooooo easy but yet the ones that give me the most pressure are the ones who have been in a relationship for many years and have no clue how the dating scene really is these days.
> 
> okay, rant over.


Just for kicks I tried a dating app again after giving up on them. I'm giving up on them.....again. My friends used to pressure me too, I never let it faze me much. I'd always respond since they are just experts at dating find me a date or some sarcastic comment like that. They will back off eventually. 

If it starts feeling like another job trying to find a date or potential match just back away from it for a while.


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## ZedZ

Curios what dating apps were you using?


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## Archangel2

turnera said:


> what hobbies/clubs are you investing in? What volunteering are you doing?


Mr. Pack - With all due respect, I think you need a 2x4. You have gotten a lot of good advice here, but I think you blow a lot of it off (case in point, Turnera's post above). We can't help you if you can't make a better effort to pull yourself out of your rut.


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## Chuck71

Egh..... Pac-Man.... sounds very familiar. Let's see.... just got back on OLD..... early 2015, 41, nurse, never married, open to children, just always at her mom's place. Then her dad's place. Then we met at her friend's house. Yeah... wasn't hard, busted her in a lie, lived with parents. Why lie? But it was more than enough for me to walk.

Hmmmm.... let's see, I'm Ginger....I'm an asst. manager at McDs, I work 25 hours a week, I have 3 beautiful kids, I'm 36, and going to school to be a xxxxx. ........... Well good for you but I finished college, have advanced degrees, and would prefer someone with a bit.......less.......baggage.

Quite a few actually told me they started college after they were separated for the reason it was virtually free money (loans not needed to repay) and they did not want to work. Then there are those, I always dated older women....can't now.... but by crap they charge after me now.... even though I state I want children......seek someone self-sufficient, who are 49, four kids, all grown, occupation: stay at home mom. ??????

I totally get it, slim pickings. When I met DC last year, she was a student at the univ I lectured at. Pure chance. I started the OLD in Dec. 2014 and by July '15... I just left my profile out there, I stopped emailing, just let them come to me. Many I would not even want to meet but... many I did. We had coffee. I saw nothing there, even before we met, but it was socializing and I was out a few bucks for coffee.

Some of the dates ended up on my Top 10 Schitty Dates of 2015 post. Yes the tow truck driver was one of them (don't laugh FSJ). Pac-Man... leave your profile up on POF, OKC, Tinder, Bumble.... and like I said.... last summer.... get out and mingle. Yes I remember going to the store after my D and the ONLY damn people you see there are couples, and EVERY damn one is so much in love.... and there's you, the leper. It's not that way, just your mind playing tricks on you.

I was lucky... mom never asked me about my dating life. Now after I had been seeing one for a few months, -when you gonna bring her by to meet me- But keep in mind Pac-Man... the ones who are pushing you for another LTR are usually people who met young or very young and are still together. Flip the tables......

"How did yawl meet? When? Where?" Maybe that's an avenue you could try. Or "set me up then or drop it." The same ones that are pushing you are often the ones who will say -never thought she was the one for you- after you break up. Funny ain't it!

But dating games have changed. Or...... is it just me? Dating mid-90s style compared to mid-10s style.... vast difference. Or am I just seeking "more?" 23, very pretty, not an airhead but can't walk and chew bubble gum at the same time.... but she's still cute! Doesn't cut it now.

Pac-Man.... you're established, have the three Ps (paycheck, property, personality), you have more to offer. So yes, you want more as well. Simple as that. Use your alone time to define you. Learn a new skill / hobby. When it's time, she will find you. When you least expect it.


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## Chuck71

Pac-Man......... hows yousa been?


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