# Trying to Man Up



## bill2011 (Feb 5, 2011)

Hi,

Have been dealing with issues with my wife for sometime now, original post in the general section, basically she is/was pissed at me for stuff I didn't really do. She has abandoment issues and feels I did the same. But the truth is I never did and have always been here. I fell madly for this women and fell into the trap of probably doing too much for her. So oneday a couple of months ago I woke up and found she offers no affection what so ever and has been focussed soley of developing new friendships (no men). This smacked me like a tons of bricks and have been depressed everyday. We have spoke about this and she appears to be trying but I cringe everytime she gets a text from her friends as I feel she used them to replace me. No matter how good of a day we have together including bedroom time. I still wake up the next morning angry as all hell. I feel like I am living an episode of ground hog day. I want to man up but my anger gets in the way cause when I back off I shut down complety and then she knows something is wrong. So I am stuck either hurting or being pissed off all the time. Need some advice on any ideas on how to move on


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Bill,
What books/posts have you read about "manning up" and what behaviors have you changed?



bill2011 said:


> Hi,
> 
> Have been dealing with issues with my wife for sometime now, original post in the general section, basically she is/was pissed at me for stuff I didn't really do. She has abandoment issues and feels I did the same. But the truth is I never did and have always been here. I fell madly for this women and fell into the trap of probably doing too much for her. So oneday a couple of months ago I woke up and found she offers no affection what so ever and has been focussed soley of developing new friendships (no men). This smacked me like a tons of bricks and have been depressed everyday. We have spoke about this and she appears to be trying but I cringe everytime she gets a text from her friends as I feel she used them to replace me. No matter how good of a day we have together including bedroom time. I still wake up the next morning angry as all hell. I feel like I am living an episode of ground hog day. I want to man up but my anger gets in the way cause when I back off I shut down complety and then she knows something is wrong. So I am stuck either hurting or being pissed off all the time. Need some advice on any ideas on how to move on


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## bill2011 (Feb 5, 2011)

Mem, Thanks for responding

I haven't read any books yet, I have read through almost all of the posts here including the external links as well. This is all new to me so I am trying to get my head around this. Because Im hurt and pissed I've already stopped initiating the ILY, kiss hugs but will respond to her if she gives them. Im still struggling with just communicating my boundries, right now she notices I wall-up when she does something I don't like and has been somewhat responsive. I really enjoyed being nice for quite sometime but now ofcourse feel used and like a [email protected]@y. So I am trying to change that. The part I am struggling with is to supress my normal behavior I am using anger to do that and she picks up on that. I am struggling with if she does what I want to I then be nice and back off only when she doesn't something I don't like or just maintain a medium posture all the time.


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## MisterNiceGuy (Jan 26, 2011)

Two books you need to read now: 

No More Mr. Nice Guy! by Robert A. Glover 
Hold on to Your NUTs: The Relationship Manual for Men by Wayne M. Levine 

Both have changed my life.

Also read Athol Kay's blog: MarriedManSexLife.com

Life changing stuff...

Do it now!



bill2011 said:


> Mem, Thanks for responding
> 
> I haven't read any books yet, I have read through almost all of the posts here including the external links as well. This is all new to me so I am trying to get my head around this. Because Im hurt and pissed I've already stopped initiating the ILY, kiss hugs but will respond to her if she gives them. Im still struggling with just communicating my boundries, right now she notices I wall-up when she does something I don't like and has been somewhat responsive. I really enjoyed being nice for quite sometime but now ofcourse feel used and like a [email protected]@y. So I am trying to change that. The part I am struggling with is to supress my normal behavior I am using anger to do that and she picks up on that. I am struggling with if she does what I want to I then be nice and back off only when she doesn't something I don't like or just maintain a medium posture all the time.


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## bill2011 (Feb 5, 2011)

Thanks MisterNiceGuy !!

I have read the blog it is very good, I will have to check out the books as well. What I was wondering is you want to reward the good behavior right ? otherwise what's the point. But what is good enough without falling into the trap again.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Bill,
The way this seems to work best is to give your partner you A game consistently. This means you manage your negative emotions yourself. I do think you need to give honest feedback when your partner is being really nice or if they are being jerky. If honest feedback "works" great. If not, then you stop "talking" and instead convey through actions how you feel about their behavior. 

Bad behavior results in you giving them "less" and "less" of your time and love if they are not treating you decently. You are not jerky/mean - in fact just the opposite. You are upbeat and positive and good to be around. You just slowly and steadily deprioritize them. I can be perfectly fun/nice friendly to my W - however if I simply stop saying ILY - that makes her uncomfortable. I do NOT play head games with her. But if she is being extra - super duper difficult - this simple change to my speech pattern lets her know I am really disliking what she is doing. 

But you also need to get good at dealing with "vague" complaints. When you get those the worst possible move is to try to "sell" the other person on why their complaint is not correct. The best thing is to get them to be as specific as possible about what they don't like/and what they DO want from you. Keeping in mind that generally anything they are insisting YOU do, they need to be willing to do in reverse. 

I would never discourage my W from spending time with female friends UNLESS those friends are taking her to pick up bars and getting drunk with her. If she wants to spend more time with her friends - I do the same with mine. Perfectly healthy behavior. 



bill2011 said:


> Thanks MisterNiceGuy !!
> 
> I have read the blog it is very good, I will have to check out the books as well. What I was wondering is you want to reward the good behavior right ? otherwise what's the point. But what is good enough without falling into the trap again.


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## bill2011 (Feb 5, 2011)

MEM,

Thanks for the info. Tried to find those books at the local b&n but they didn't have them so I will have to order them from amazon. I never had a problem with her friends in a matter of fact I encouraged it. The last thing I want is a bored housewife. This particular friend bothers me because of her enthusiasm and accmodation to be accepted by this person, at the same time putting no effort or just outright ignoring me. She is also married and they just hangout it is totally harmless. However this persons husband works on the weekends at night and at a point this became a little too frequent for my liking. To further crush my insecurity they would play some board games together, games that I like and we used play together but she tells me she doesn't like playing them. The other bother is them texting each other all the time. She will do this while sitting next to me on the couch and have a whole conversation without saying a word to me as if I wasn't there. I have explained to her why these things bother me and ofcourse she got defensive over it. I understand her friend has all this free time, but she has a husband who is home and would like to spend some time with her. We have 2 children with all sorts of activities that limit the time we spend together.





MEM11363 said:


> Bill,
> The way this seems to work best is to give your partner you A game consistently. This means you manage your negative emotions yourself. I do think you need to give honest feedback when your partner is being really nice or if they are being jerky. If honest feedback "works" great. If not, then you stop "talking" and instead convey through actions how you feel about their behavior.
> 
> Bad behavior results in you giving them "less" and "less" of your time and love if they are not treating you decently. You are not jerky/mean - in fact just the opposite. You are upbeat and positive and good to be around. You just slowly and steadily deprioritize them. I can be perfectly fun/nice friendly to my W - however if I simply stop saying ILY - that makes her uncomfortable. I do NOT play head games with her. But if she is being extra - super duper difficult - this simple change to my speech pattern lets her know I am really disliking what she is doing.
> ...


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

Bill,
Both those books you can get from the kindle store on amazon. If you don't have a kindle, you can download the kindle client for your desktop. Works the same.

Not trying to advertise here! I couldn't wait to read these books either so I used kindle client and downloaded them immediately. Those books are awesome! 

Remember, you have to remember only YOU control your own happiness. She can't make u happy. You can be happy with her because you love her, but your responsible for your own moods or how you react to your wifes behavior. Once I realized this, I find I'm happy all the time. Even when my wife is grumpy, because she's moody, so it happened a lot, I would ignore it and still be upbeat. I would just ignore her moods and act like it was the best day ever. At first this used to get her even more moody, but after a while she stopped being so moody as much. Yes, strange.

As far as manning up, then u tell her what you will tolerate with her behavior, and the consequences of her ignoring your request. This is your NUT! NUTs aren't negotiable. But you have to be willing to follow through with those consequences, or else they are just idle, and you just compromised you NUT. The book explains this very well.

In your shoes, I would tell her your going out this weekend, not her. Your going out with your friends since she seems to be unavailable for you right now, and your not going to sit at home while she always goes out with her friends. Then either go out with your friends or just go for coffee or the gym, or the movie. But just go. And do this frequently. Let her know she doesn't get to decide the schedule for both of you. However, maybe some of the more experienced members have better advice in this situation, since I'm still learning this also, so I'm bound to not get it right all the time. Don't let her guilt you into thinking your overreacting. Your feelings are not wrong. In fact their right, because they are your feelings. She doesn't get to decide what your feeling either. Then, maybe she will want to actually sit down like reasonable adults and then discuss it more maturely instead of throwing that spoilt girl reaction in your face. In fact, when she does that, interrupt her immediately and tell her your not listening to her accusations, and that you will continue to discuss this topic when she decides to act more mature about the conversation. Then, go about your day like it's the best day of your life! Yes, this seems all counter intuitive, but it totally works! Just don't be scared to actually try it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

Remember! Don't get moody or angry. That's passive aggressive, which is not manly at all. It's all about being confident in your thoughts and that you are in total control of your feelings at all times. You are a MAN! You have the power and confidence that nothing phases you! You are in control at all times. Up for any challenge the world, or your wife, throws at you. And you hold a straight face doing it!

This is where you can roar! Because your feeling you latent manly genes start to express themselves again!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bill2011 (Feb 5, 2011)

Thanks Alpha

I appreciate the feedback, She seems to have listened even though I did not handle it correctly, I did get moody over it rather than remaining calm. She has stopped the weekend things and has agreed to keep it very limited. Was still doing the texting thing so I got up a walked away and told her she can talk to me when she is done with her private conversation with her friend. Passive aggressive I know but I am just learning as well. She also agreed not to do that any more like that. Things are starting to turn around but I beleive it is because she feels the threat is real as this point as I was considering it an option. I'm pretty sure this won't last so I will need to man up in the meantime. I will download those books tonight.

Thanks 
Bill


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## bill2011 (Feb 5, 2011)

Thanks again Alpha, got both books downloaded so I can't wait to read them. Any recommendations on which one to start with first ??

Thanks


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

I don't think it matters. I read "...nice guy...." first, then NUTS. Both compliment each other. 

One more thing some people make a mistake on when just learning your new thought paradigm. Manning up doesn't mean you turn into a ****. You want to be the happiest, most confident person in the world. Someone your wife actually wants to be around. Someone she knows will be strong when she needs it, and knows that you will be strong and supportive for the family. Of course, with this power comes great responsibility! Lol. The responsibility to pass all her sh$t tests she's going to throw at u to test that you are actually as strong as you are projecting, or if your still a little boy that's just being too nice. Little boy = not attractive.

First, read your books. Define your nuts. Live your nuts. NEVER compromise your nuts. Stop being a nice guy. Practice that. Then, start reading this site about the **** tests, because you need to be prepared!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Bill,
Alpha is giving you good feedback. Let me add a couple thoughts. I know my W incredibly well. I know what she hates, what she likes and what she LOVES. When I tilt our mix of activities towards the stuff she loves her feelings for me are greatly amplified. 

And when she is being difficult - MOSTLY I stay calm and use humor to get her to realize she is not being fair/reasonable. 

A big part of the reason my W loves playing certain sports/board games with me is the "game itself" but the rest is the fact that I am "fun" to play with. I play hard but compliment her when she plays well - yes - deep sigh - I have even learned to compliment her when she is kicking my ass. This whole "positive" shared experience thing is HUGE. If you can only do 2 things: 
1. Ramp that up and 
2. Learn to control your negative emotions in a positive manner. 




bill2011 said:


> Thanks again Alpha, got both books downloaded so I can't wait to read them. Any recommendations on which one to start with first ??
> 
> Thanks


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## bill2011 (Feb 5, 2011)

Thank you both for the guidence. I am excited to start this journey.




MEM11363 said:


> Bill,
> Alpha is giving you good feedback. Let me add a couple thoughts. I know my W incredibly well. I know what she hates, what she likes and what she LOVES. When I tilt our mix of activities towards the stuff she loves her feelings for me are greatly amplified.
> 
> And when she is being difficult - MOSTLY I stay calm and use humor to get her to realize she is not being fair/reasonable.
> ...


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bill2011 (Feb 5, 2011)

Ok, so I read through Nice guy the whole book last night, a lot of it has his home really hard. Definitely an enlighten book. Now I have to decide what I want to do, It has been so long I don't even know what I want anymore so I'll have to figure that out. Gonna get to the other book soon also.

Again - thanks to everyone for their help. I'm sure I will have more to post and I continue the journey


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Bill,

Any parts of the book that were particularly close to home?


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## bill2011 (Feb 5, 2011)

Conrad,

Yes actually quite a few, for starters I come from a broken home with an alcoholic father and a mother who needed to work at nights so I was pretty much alone most of the time. In addition I always swore I would never be him and be a good husband/father. I also believed that if I please people they in turn will please me (but this has yet too work). I am overweight so I guess my addiction is food. I've spent the last 10 years given and doing things for my wife, that I expected in return and since they weren't I feel resentful towards her. I know my wife has abandoment issues and I've always felt it was her fault, while all along I was the one who was abandoned and seek the need for approval from people. Im sure I've failed many tests over the years so now I have to Man up and deal with them as they come along.

On a side note I have a question re:sex. While things were never up to my expectations I am better then most at least 1 a week. Because she hasn't been into it and claims it has been since the birth of the children (but I know now I did it to myself) I've spend tons of time in trying to please her in bed to no avail. So recently I gave up on that, the other night she gave me a kiss and I kissed back, she kissed again so I just went for it, didn't ask just did it, she complemented me afterwards that is was nice I just took what I wanted. So it is clear that this is a turn-on for her (wish we would have told me 10 yrs ago - LOL). So my question is ? how do you just take what you want when im sure there will be times she doesn't want to, Not looking to force anything , but don't want to be rejected either. I'll be honest that I need to take a pill every now and then to get ready so I kinda need to know ahead of time, but don't want to ask permission ??


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Bill,

Stick with the program.

You'll be able to feel it coming on. And, from my own experience, she may utter those very words (take me/take what you want).

MEM advises that you may want to develop a code word or a few... such as, "I want to connect tonight".

Gets her thinking about it.


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## MisterNiceGuy (Jan 26, 2011)

Welcome to the club brother! I'm a couple weeks ahead of you but the changes in my wife have been incredible!!



bill2011 said:


> Ok, so I read through Nice guy the whole book last night, a lot of it has his home really hard. Definitely an enlighten book. Now I have to decide what I want to do, It has been so long I don't even know what I want anymore so I'll have to figure that out. Gonna get to the other book soon also.
> 
> Again - thanks to everyone for their help. I'm sure I will have more to post and I continue the journey


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bill2011 (Feb 5, 2011)

Conrad,

Thanks again as always, but even a code word is kind of asking for permission, when I've done that in the past always got the "not in the mood" answer. I don't want to be there again


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

bill2011 said:


> Conrad,
> 
> Thanks again as always, but even a code word is kind of asking for permission, when I've done that in the past always got the "not in the mood" answer. I don't want to be there again


There are other ways.

Read Atholk's blog about giving her a "real kiss". You can always plant one of those on her in the kitchen and see how she responds.

That can also be a very telling signal. And, no verbalization required.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Bill, 
There are 2 different pieces to this puzzle:
1. IF and
2. HOW

IF has to do with the question of whether you are/are not going to have sex. Below are some games to play while IF is still up in the air. I am very careful during "IF" - you can really screw up reading her "real" desires wrong. 

HOW - that is once you have a green light. Once you have that, you likely should experiment with being more aggressive as she seems to like that. 

1. Provoke a wrestling match. I don't care how you do it - take away the tv remote and tease her. Take something she wants and playfully defy her to take it back. We have some simple rules of engagement when "sparring"/"wrestling". 

She can: punch, elbow, knee, kick, bite (no breaking the skin), or scratch - often she does break the skin scratching. 

She is also able to use various types of emotional judo (making me laugh so hard that my coordination is compromised, pretending I hurt her - while this can work - it also results in a more severe spanking when I figure it out)

She has to avoid eyes and groin. Thats it for her. 

I can: block with hands/arms/legs, restrain/overpower her by use of hands. And "if" I pin her I get to spank her until she either says "uncle" or distracts/dissuades me with some clever nonsense. 

Wrestling almost 100 percent of the time triggers same day or next day sex.

2. The next time your W is giving you a hard time - give her a flat look and say - keep it up and I WILL spank you. 

WARNING - you need to be able to differentiate between being fitness tested vs being fairly chastised for something you actually screwed up. Watch her reaction - if she deliberately provokes you - she WANTS the aggression. But use good judgement here. If she says "you touch me and ...seriously bad consequence..." just pretend the exchange never happened. 

3. At night she walks into the bedroom and you give her the hard kiss up against the wall - step back and don't break eye contact. Say "strip now" in a firm voice. If she does she does. Or she may "cue" you to be more aggressive. If she does it will be fairly obvious. If it is NOT really obvious back off. 

If you need to back off do NOT apologize - just stop and pretend nothing happened. Women who ask you to be really aggressive during the "IF" need to accept some awkward moments. 

Anything more aggressive than 3 - you better be killer perceptive. I am very practiced at this stuff - and I wouldn't go past 3. 




bill2011 said:


> Conrad,
> 
> Thanks again as always, but even a code word is kind of asking for permission, when I've done that in the past always got the "not in the mood" answer. I don't want to be there again


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## bill2011 (Feb 5, 2011)

Thanks guys, Glad to be part of the club. Waiting for the first test and hopefully I will reconize it





MEM11363 said:


> Bill,
> There are 2 different pieces to this puzzle:
> 1. IF and
> 2. HOW
> ...


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MisterNiceGuy (Jan 26, 2011)

MEM, WOW thanks for those tips... you know this stuff comes so naturally when you are younger and now that I'm in my 40's I kinda forget this stuff... My wife would TOTALLY go for all three of those ideas now. I need to write them down and use them on her next week! (when I get back from my business trip.)


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## bill2011 (Feb 5, 2011)

Ok so here something for everyone's amusement. Normally I get up in the morning and put the coffee on and when done fix myself a cup, even if she is up first she would never do this, I am more of a coffee drinker than her. Since our big blow up last week she has been up first and has put on the coffee and would go sit down and watch the news. So when I would come down when the buzzer would go off I would fix myself and her a cup of coffee cause I appreciated she got it started. This morning I woke up before her so I put the coffee on and I sat down. I was curious to see if she would get coffee for the both of us, the buzzer goes off and sits there next to me watching the news. I decided to stay put for a few to see what would happen, a few minutes go by and joking tells my daughter to go get mommy some coffee. As soon as I heard this I decided there is no way I am getting it for her. But I wanted coffee so I got up and fixed my self a cup and returned to sit down. She made a comment like "oh you didn't get me any". I just smiled and said "oh" and began to talk about a story on tv. A few more minutes go by and she says "you're mad a me". I again smiled and said no I am not. After that I stayed for a few more minutes and I got ready to go to the gym. When I returned later she was pissed and complaining about the house been messy and she can't find something. I stayed calm and said don't worry about it , it will turn up and proceed to make myself some breakfast. She went upstairs and began to cry, Again I calmly finished what I was doing and went upstairs to take a shower for work, when I walked in our room she was sitting on the floor crying, again I just said don't worry about it, she then says you're mad at me I can tell. I said no I am not, I am quite happy today and had a good time last night (was out with some friends). She stood up and proceed to give a hug so I responded as well. Afterwards when I was leaving for work she says "She is sorry for being in a bad mood, when I was in such a good one" and then gave me a kiss and said ILY so I responed the same also.

I know this is petty but it helped my confidence as normally I would have apologized for not getting her coffee or would have tried to fix her problems by offering to help look for the item or got tried to console her with sympathy. I remained calm through the whole thing (I will admit it was tough). So I guess baby steps but at least they are in the right direction.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Bill,
This is absolutely perfect. Your W will respect and love you more when you enforce the golden rule. And as you have seen, when you are polite, firm, upbeat and calm the positive results are really great. 

A "fitness test" is simply an opportunity to show your W some of that beautiful stuff (self control, determination, self awareness, fairness, humor, problem solving skills, etc.) she fell in love with at the start. 






bill2011 said:


> Ok so here something for everyone's amusement. Normally I get up in the morning and put the coffee on and when done fix myself a cup, even if she is up first she would never do this, I am more of a coffee drinker than her. Since our big blow up last week she has been up first and has put on the coffee and would go sit down and watch the news. So when I would come down when the buzzer would go off I would fix myself and her a cup of coffee cause I appreciated she got it started. This morning I woke up before her so I put the coffee on and I sat down. I was curious to see if she would get coffee for the both of us, the buzzer goes off and sits there next to me watching the news. I decided to stay put for a few to see what would happen, a few minutes go by and joking tells my daughter to go get mommy some coffee. As soon as I heard this I decided there is no way I am getting it for her. But I wanted coffee so I got up and fixed my self a cup and returned to sit down. She made a comment like "oh you didn't get me any". I just smiled and said "oh" and began to talk about a story on tv. A few more minutes go by and she says "you're mad a me". I again smiled and said no I am not. After that I stayed for a few more minutes and got ready to go to the gym. When I returned later she was pissed and complaining about the house been messy and she can't find something. I stayed calm and said don't worry about it , it will turn up and proceed to make myself some breakfast. She went upstairs and began to cry, Again I calmly finished what I was doing and went upstairs to take a shower for work, when I walked in our room she was sitting on the floor crying, again I just said don't worry about it, she then says you're mad at me I can tell. I said no I am not, I am quite happy today and had a good time last night (was out with some friends). She stood up and proceed to give a hug so I responded as well. Afterwards when I was leaving for work she says "She is sorry to be in a bad mood, when I was in such a good one" and then gave me a kiss and said ILY so I repsoned the same also.
> 
> I know this is petty but it helped my confidence as normally I would have apologized for not getting her coffee or would have tried to fix her problems by offering to help look for the item or got tried to console her with sympathy. I remained calm through the whole thing (I will admit it was tough). So I guess baby steps but at least they are in the right direction.


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## bill2011 (Feb 5, 2011)

MEM - thanks for the encouragement, I think she will drop this at this point, but I am wondering if she tries to ask why I didn't what would be the correct response 

Thanks
Bill


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## MisterNiceGuy (Jan 26, 2011)

Bill, you and are in the same boat... just went through basically the same thing last week. It's amazing what happens... I have been doing everyone's laundry for years (except her special stuff) and magically a couple of days ago she washed my clothes and folded and put them away for me! Hasn't done that in years! Same with the dishes... Unless I need to cooks something, I let them pile up in the sink until she does something about them. Wow, it amazing how things get done instead of b*tching about how messy everything is all the time!


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

Ok. One question. Does the coffee thing matter when trying to do the man up thing correctly? Really! I'm serious in asking. I make coffee every morning, and always get my wife coffee. I don't even think it an event to get sh$ t tested on. Really, I'm so comfortable with my own independence that I do most things myself. Laundry...do it. Not for my wife but because i find it not that hard to throw in some laundry when I'm walking by the machine. Vacuuming. Do it. On my schedule, but it gets done. Mopping floors.....well...ok....I take a stand there.

None of this stuff I'm doing to make my wife happy. That doesn't even enter my mind. However, when she does mention that laundry is piling up, I say something like " Well, I'm going to the gym tonight. And tomorrow night is the poker game. Maybe on the weekend I will have time.". And then I'll leave it at that. Wow! Maybe I've been passing sh$ t tests without even realizing I've been getting tested.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## coops (Jan 24, 2011)

Yes it can matter a great deal. 

Here is why you "get away" with the various service behaviors:

"Really, I'm so comfortable with my own independence that I do most things myself."

"Not for my wife"

"None of this stuff I'm doing to make my wife happy. That doesn't even enter my mind."

She picks up on that and knows it. Women can just tell tell the difference between you doing it for yourself and you doing it to make her happy. You aren't getting away with the behavior because "it doesn't matter". You're getting away with it cause you're exhibiting enough alpha behaviors that it changes it from service to generosity. 

Its all about context.


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## coops (Jan 24, 2011)

To take that a little further. You won't raise your wife's attraction level for you by serving her. At best you'll maintain it, at worst you'll lower it.


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## bill2011 (Feb 5, 2011)

Im not sure if it matters or not which is why I threw it out here. I now know that serving her needs to much is was got me into trouble in the first place, I could give a crap about the coffee, I was more proud of myself for controlling the situation and my emotions.


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## coops (Jan 24, 2011)

I think you handled it perfectly. Not sure you could have handled it any better.


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

Yes bill. You did this well. I just though I was NOT doing something I should have been. The difference being my wife never asks me for coffee! I just get it as part of my morning routine. I did get asked subtly one evening "I feel like some tea!" with her big puppydog eyes, to which I responded "yes. Sounds wonderful. I'll take some too, thank you.".
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## coops (Jan 24, 2011)

alphaomega said:


> Yes bill. You did this well. I just though I was NOT doing something I should have been. The difference being my wife never asks me for coffee! I just get it as part of my morning routine. I did get asked subtly one evening "I feel like some tea!" with her big puppydog eyes, to which I responded "yes. Sounds wonderful. I'll take some too, thank you.".
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


HAHAH best answer. I'll have to remember that.


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## bill2011 (Feb 5, 2011)

Alpha,

That's great, love it !!!


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

*Successfully enforcing the golden rule*

Bill,
If she pushes it - I would just do this. 

You: "Would you prefer in the future - that when either of us is getting something the other might like - that we do it for both of us or at least ask each other "do you want this/that"?
Her: Yes, I thought it was inconsiderate of you to get yourself a coffee when you knew I wanted one.
You: (smiling) I promise - going forward not to ask (child) to get "me" something when it is an item we "both" want. As I certainly wouldn't want you to think I am ignoring your "wants/needs". 

If this was my W - most likely she laughs at this point and says - that is fair - sorry I did that. But on a beetchy day she might play the "I have no idea what you are talking about game". That isn't nice. When that happens the conversation ends with me still smiling and saying "I am trying to help reach a constructive agreement on how we go forward" and then I just shrug. Which means I am done talking. She can either be fair or I am going to ignore her for a while. I don't get mad. I don't argue with her about what did or did not happen. She knows exactly what happened. It is pointless to argue when your partner is denying actual factual events. She knows that when she is fighting really dirty it makes me less "emotionally engaged". Not my problem. 

As for the coffee - of course this has nothing to do with coffee. This has everything to do with basic fairness and respect. When you ignored "her" need, the way she had just ignored yours - she got really upset. That has to be addressed or you end up being treated VERY badly. 

You just cannot allow a general context where it is perfectly fine for your partner to do something to you that they freak when you do it back. 

Since this is the mens clubhouse - just a quick example of where I set the bar for "me". W and I drove to a sports event where one of our kids was competing. It was a weekend morning. I brought a jacket she didn't. We start walking from the car and I realize she is cold. I offer her my jacket. She declines. I take it off and drape it on my arm. She tries to convince me to put it on. I tell her I am not cold and don't need it. She keeps arguing for me to put it back on. I quietly smile and ignore her. Finally she puts on the jacket and thanks me profusely. I just shrug and give her a quick kiss. 

Moral of the story: It wasn't very considerate of me to get "my" jacket without either grabbing hers and throwing it in the car or suggesting she bring one. I guess I could have apologized for being selfish - but that wouldn't have warmed her up. It was a little cold that morning which ensures that next time I will remember to make sure we both bring jackets. 




bill2011 said:


> MEM - thanks for the encouragement, I think she will drop this at this point, but I am wondering if she tries to ask why I didn't what would be the correct response
> 
> Thanks
> Bill


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## Atholk (Jul 25, 2009)

MisterNiceGuy said:


> Also read Athol Kay's blog: MarriedManSexLife.com
> 
> Life changing stuff...
> 
> Do it now!



:yay:


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## bill2011 (Feb 5, 2011)

Thanks MEM,

Well it never came up, Got the cold shoulder for an hour or so and just ignored, after that started to warm up and I responded as such. I am making some time today to now read hold on to your nuts.


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## bill2011 (Feb 5, 2011)

Well I thought I screwed up today but was able to salvage the day. Earlier she was complaining about something she had to do and doesn't want to, I listened to her but then I told her if you don't want to do it then don't, then gave her an excuse she could use. So I realized I screwed up and tried to fix this - bummer !!. Later a salesman came to the door and I was getting rid of him when she came over and yelled at the guy. My reaction was very natural and I didn't even think about it, but I told her in a firm voice, I have this under control , don't do that again. She apologized and an hour later came over and gave me a big kiss but had to leave so I broke this kiss and said to be adjuorned to later.

This stuff is so crazy and while I am fearful to make mistakes I am getting more and more confident each day as I learn.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Bill,
You are truly making this transition at bullet train speed. That said we all need some safety nets for when we make mistakes and she will love you more for being stand up about them. 

When I screw up I say two things quickly. 
- I didn't handle that well 
- Next time I will do "xyz" (And next time you better - manning up is every bit as much about performance and follow through as it is about "affect".)

If my W is feeling cat like - you ever watch a cat that has caught a mouse/mole on the lawn - she might be inclined to try to "pile on" by telling me how she is still mad. If she does that - I generally give her that questioning look and ask her: 
- Do you want me to do something "different" than "xyz" next time? (I am ignoring the pile on - and focusing on the go forward plan)
- If she keeps on I either get dead quiet and completely and totally still. Being completely still is not normal. It tends to "break" the momentum. Or I pull my shirt up and make a deadpan remark about if she wants to stab me in the chest no reason to ruin a perfectly good shirt. 





bill2011 said:


> Well I thought I screwed up today but was able to salvage the day. Earlier she was complaining about something she had to do and doesn't want to, I listened to her but then I told her if you don't want to do it then don't, then gave her an excuse she could use. So I realized I screwed up and tried to fix this - bummer !!. Later a salesman came to the door and I was getting rid of him when she came over and yelled at the guy. My reaction was very natural and I didn't even think about it, but I told her in a firm voice, I have this under control , don't do that again. She apologized and an hour later came over and gave me a big kiss but had to leave so I broke this kiss and said to be adjuorned to later.
> 
> This stuff is so crazy and while I am fearful to make mistakes I am getting more and more confident each day as I learn.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Bill,

Just a note of encouragement.

My wife and I have been on the "bullet train express" also over the past 3-6 months.

Yes, we've made some mistakes. Yes, we've said some really rough things to each other from time to time.

Yes, we've been to the edge and back more than once.

But, guess what? Who you actually "are" says quite a bit more than anything you actually say or do.

Case in point.....

We had a disagreement 2-3 nights ago. She thought I crossed the line in trying to hurt her. I thought she crossed the line with issuing such a disrespectful judgement - and going further to tell me the motives she thought she was seeing.

My internal reaction to this was huge. I felt that some of our progress was at risk and I was very dejected. I was truly hating the situation and really really down.

Guess who came back the next day and lifted me back up? She did cite many "old behaviors" she witnessed/found during my emotional hijack. Of course, I confessed to all of them and admitted I was surprised I didn't do a better job.

The key thing was she didn't get big. She realizes that the progress we've made is real and just wanted to "go right back" to where we were before the discussion.

With this blanket forgiveness in my pocket, I was able to get past my big emotions and even agreed to work on that particular night with my counselor in the future.

To say the least, I was delighted to find that the work we'd been doing was even MORE effective than I'd first imagined. Not only am I doing my absolute best, but she is too.

This is a huge weight off my shoulders. If you "stay the course", I predict you'll have a similar day soon.


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

Conrad,

Out of curiousity! Were you feeling dejected because of something inside you, or that your wife wasn't happy with you.

Since it's only been a few months on my journey, I find I did sometime regress in those thoughts that I needed to make my wife happy to make me feel happy. But I could usually spot myself feeling this way and change my thought patterns. Now, it's getting way better in that I don't feel like that at all anymore, or at least 99% of the time. I realize I'll probably slip once in a while, although I haven't slipped in weeks. It's been great!

Case in point for me. They say to truly be yourself, you have to get to the point where you can't be afraid of losing your spouse, then u know you your thought patterns are changing and adapting where you truly realize that you are responsible for your happiness. Since my wife came back after her EA, I started to get paranoid about whether it was underground of not, or whether her feelings for me were genuine. I obsessed about this at the start for about a week, even though all indications were that the EA was over completely. I continuously told myself that I have no TRUE control over her actions, and if she wanted the EA instead of me, she can have it...just without me. So I stopped obsessing. After about a month, my wife and I were sitting on the couch across from each other, and I was massaging her feet while she was watching tv and I was writing on my iPad. I just remember looking up at her out of the blue and realizing that, yes, I do love my wife and will treat her with kindness and respect, but if she truly wants to leave, while it would be sad, I just knew I would get over it and still have a happy life. That thought seemed to change my dynamic in the marriage at that point where I truly realized I was starting to be more of a true partner than a nice guy trying to please her because I finally " got it" in my head.

Ok. This has nothing to really do with your post, but for some reason reading your post reminded me of this moment.

That is awesome that your work is paying off for you!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bill2011 (Feb 5, 2011)

I agree with both of you, my wife has been supportive even though she doesn't know what's going on in my head. I never listened to her before but the signs were all there. She has told me on many occasions that she just wants to vent to me, yet I felt the need to fix everything, she's also told me to pursue hobbies and have a social life which I have done neither. I was too busy figuring out how to please her so that my needs were meet instead of pleasing myself. I just found a local support group from the No More Mister Nice Guy website and will be attending a meeting next week so I am looking forward to that. I do still feel weak at this point due to the fact I still fear losing my wife and just this morning I was trying to please her with something. These momentary setbacks are a bummer but I guess the key is to just move past it and get back on the horse.

I do now truly believe she does love me and not because I please her, I also am starting to feel confident about this journey cause like I said she has been telling me things so she has my best interest at heart also and if worst case it doesn't work like the books have said I've done everything I can do to be the best man I can be.

I do appreciate talking to all of you and being able to communicate here helps get me back on track fairly quickly rather than been depressed and feeling unmotivated.
Thanks
Bill


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

alphaomega said:


> Conrad,
> 
> Out of curiousity! Were you feeling dejected because of something inside you, or that your wife wasn't happy with you.
> 
> ...


Aomega,

No worries about straying off topic.

I felt bad because we had a falling out.

My wife would freely admit that I have been more active in trying to "fix" the relationship from the start.

Of course, we're each more likely to own our own stuff now.

I have a very strong internal engine that does not like to "give back ground" once it's gained. And, it felt like we were going backwards. I felt really bad about it and didn't know what to do.

It's funny. You can argue about which one of us was in the right or in the wrong, but you wouldn't get anywhere with it.

What was amazing was that she reached out to me in love and forgiveness for reacting in the old way. How many times have I demanded such treatment? We all know how that works out.

Only through being responsible for yourself is it SAFE enough for your partner to truly care for you.

Think about it.

I sure am.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Conrad said:


> Aomega,
> 
> *I have a very strong internal engine that does not like to "give back ground" once it's gained. * And, it felt like we were going backwards. I felt really bad about it and didn't know what to do.
> 
> ...


YES.

I have the SAME panic button whenever I sense that "Oh, no! We're BACKSLIDING!"

I also am thinking about this. The tough part is the interim, when you're not sure if your partner will get to that safety that they need.


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## bill2011 (Feb 5, 2011)

I messed up big time yesterday, I made the rookie mistake of asserting my self on a condition rather than a NUT and it was all downhill from there. The little boy reared is ugly head and ruinnied the whole day, I realize that my wife is much much stronger than me and it will be a tall order to get into my place. I realize I am still dwelling on the past and not moving forward so I'm disappointed with myself. I woke-up this morning and I am trying to regain my composer to continue moving forward. It is very discouraging when you feel like a mistake can wipe out a week's worth of effort. I'm sure this won't be the last setback but I need to do a better job at this.


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

So apologize. Knowing when you are wrong is also part of manning up. Your going to slip once in a while!

Yesterday, I totally missed a fitness test. Mostly because of my personality. I'm usually calm and collected so things just bounce off me and I don't see the underlying intent. I was cleaning out the garage yesterday, and came in for a sec, commenting on how much crap was in there. She responded by saying sarcastically..." well, at least your not procrastinating like you always do.". I didn't even notice the test...just said something like..." well, it's nice to get this done finally..." , then walked back out. Halfway to the garage, I stopped, thinking....Wait a minute? What the he'll was that!". Since the moment was over, I just shrugged it off again and finished cleaning the garage out.

Sometimes I'm just slow like that. That's how I roll. Lol.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bill2011 (Feb 5, 2011)

Alpha,

I hear you, this is definitely not an easy task, my mistake is I am being defensive about being tested and jumped the gun and mishandled the situation. My biggest fear is everytime I screw it up it chips away at my wife and sooner rather than later she will give up as well. I do realize this is a huge insecurity on my part that I need to man-up too. I've been telling myself all day that I can do this and will do this, right at this moment I feel strong so it is up to me to make this permanent. I'd did apologize but should have said it more clearly, at this point I don't think anything needs to be said as I should just move on. The reason I say this is that my wife has accused me of coming back to her after a talk even hours or days later as I've analyzed something and nit picking on a sentence she has said. She is correct I've caught my self doing this and it is not conductive to moving forward.

I think the best thing is to keep selling it to yourself that you are in control and can do this and will succeed and if you screw-up let it go and move forward. Sounds so easy right ?? , I wish it was but it is not. Keep moving forward.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Bill,
There are a limited number of ways of being tested. 

Let me generalize one from Alpha's example above. 

YOU are doing something constructive and your W makes a not nice comment. In his case it was about not procrastinating. That IS a test. It IS a test. You can ignore it, which is a "C-" grade. You can lose your temper which we all know is an "F" or you can respond with a calm, friendly:

"You can thank me for doing this, or you are welcome to help" 

And then keep doing what you are doing and let her decide. But I will tell you in advance - in some cases she will double down - you will get a snippy "I was just kidding". Guess what, she wasn't kidding and she is pissed you are calling out her bad behavior. Don't respond to that. Literally no response. I let silence fully address untrue statements. In fact I refuse to respond to blatantly untrue statements. 

And after I finish what I am doing and go shower if she is still trying to convert her busted fitness test into a victory I smile and go about my day until she comes to her senses. 

And like Bill, I have learned you don't need an explicit conversation to resolve this. By that night she has felt bad for a big chunk of the day and that is plenty to discourage a repeat in the future. But I do NOT make the first overture. I let her come to me. 

If you quickly and successfully address the "little" battles you are unlikely to get to the really ugly stuff "sexual deprivation", blatantly disrespectful behavior in public. Temper tantrums. Etc. 




bill2011 said:


> Alpha,
> 
> I hear you, this is definitely not an easy task, my mistake is I am being defensive about being tested and jumped the gun and mishandled the situation. My biggest fear is everytime I screw it up it chips away at my wife and sooner rather than later she will give up as well. I do realize this is a huge insecurity on my part that I need to man-up too. I've been telling myself all day that I can do this and will do this, right at this moment I feel strong so it is up to me to make this permanent. I'd did apologize but should have said it more clearly, at this point I don't think anything needs to be said as I should just move on. The reason I say this is that my wife has accused me of coming back to her after a talk even hours or days later as I've analyzed something and nit picking on a sentence she has said. She is correct I've caught my self doing this and it is not conductive to moving forward.
> 
> I think the best thing is to keep selling it to yourself that you are in control and can do this and will succeed and if you screw-up let it go and move forward. Sounds so easy right ?? , I wish it was but it is not. Keep moving forward.


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## bill2011 (Feb 5, 2011)

Thanks for the info, did a search on here for fitness test and got too many responses to sort through. I have heard the "I was just joking" line on many of occasions., my W almost never says anything sarcastic at me unless we are arguing (which is only recent). But it is clear I've failed many of times so any insight some common tests would be great.


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## bill2011 (Feb 5, 2011)

Nevermind, I am starting to see these tests, just this morning as I was coming home from the gym I decided the get myself a bagel so I got one for my wife as well, When see opened it she said is this the lowfat cream chesse, I said no I didn't know they had that, (then it hit me) so I said well next time I won't get you anything , she said I was just kidding so I smiled and went a fixed myself some coffee. The more I see these the more I feel in control, I have a lot of work to do and deep inside I am still doing this to get my wife back, have not embraced doing for myself yet, so my results will be limited right now, but this is still encouraging me to move forward.


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

Bill,

Do it for yourself! The end result is that you'll get your wife back!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bill2011 (Feb 5, 2011)

Alpha,

I agree, trying to change 40 years of behavior is a tough task. But I'm up for it


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

bill2011 said:


> Alpha,
> 
> I agree, trying to change 40 years of behavior is a tough task. But I'm up for it


Bill,

Not to pick nits, but it hasn't been even close to 40 years.

When she fell in love with you, were you this way?

BE THAT MAN AGAIN.

You were that man prior to her arrival on the scene.


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## bill2011 (Feb 5, 2011)

Conrad,

To be quite honest and after reading the book, yes I have always been this way, Looking back I now realize that when I met my wife it was just after another relationship went sour (because she felt I was too nice for her). This left me extremely guarded and for the first couple of months we were together I didn't really care too much so she pursued me. Of course when I finally fell for her the nice guy returned and at first she welcomed it and so I spent the last 10 years trying to please and ended up here. Now looking with some clearer glasses I'm shocked we lasted 10 years. Everytime an intimacy issue has come up my wife claimed it was since the birth of our daugther she lost her drive. Ofcourse I know it was really because of me. She also feels I was emotional absent as well which I also now know is on me. The task of lowering the thermometer was easy when I was pissed at her, now that I realize it's my fault , it is that much harder to do. I am taking it day by day. The thermometer is lowered and I'm moving forward with taking care of myself. One of the hardest things is to "act happy" while inside I am so disappointed with myself. But I guess like us all this is the journey we must navigate through.


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## bill2011 (Feb 5, 2011)

Sonny,

I've been doing well with the excercise (starting to notice a few pounds coming off), made some plans with friends and just doing basically anything to get out of the house to keep myself busy. I am weakest when I am with her. There hasn't been much to talk about I'm just listening to her most of the time and there's been a lot of silence too. Even if I try to have a conversation as the ideas pop into my head as to what to say, I'm like scratch that (your trying to fix, apologize or ask for approval). Those awkward scenarios are the hardest. I have a long way to go before I really believe in myself, but as each day goes by you keep getting stronger. I've always go a few days and then bam the little boy emerges so If I can make it a week straight that would boost my confidence.

Bill


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

Bill,

Think your doing fine. I sometimes get the same way around my wife. It does get easier to tell yourself your the only one responsible for your happiness. Plus, I also tended to start thinking like I did in college, where I was piz and vinegar and I wanted to control the world (narf!). I was the most confident then, and after a while that's how I started to think daily, even with my wife around. In fact, I'm starting to think I can do anything again, as long as I set my mind to it! Feels good!

...well, I didn't control the world....but I can say I have a 16 square foot cube at work I am master of! Roar!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Bill,

Have you ever been to individual counseling?


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## bill2011 (Feb 5, 2011)

Conrad,

No never had any counselling whatsoever, do you or anyone else think they are helpful, also do they deal with being "too nice"


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

bill2011 said:


> Conrad,
> 
> No never had any counselling whatsoever, do you or anyone else think they are helpful, also do they deal with being "too nice"


Bill,

It can help with "why" you are being "too nice."

Believe me, it's eye opening.


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## bill2011 (Feb 5, 2011)

Conrad,

Thanks I think might be neccesary, my eyes were opened when I read no more mr nice guy as it described my childhood to a t. I now know I became this way because I was raised by a single mother who had her own emotional issues and couldn't provide me the love I required. The changes I've already made have me on a high and I feel incredibly strong at the moment. There still may be other issues that I might not be aware of yet and may need to sort those out with a counselor. Like any other problems you take it day by day and not look back.





Conrad said:


> Bill,
> 
> It can help with "why" you are being "too nice."
> 
> Believe me, it's eye opening.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bill2011 (Feb 5, 2011)

Ok, I'm moving along with my manning up journey, been going to the gym and really starting to feel good about myself. I can now look back at the whole situation without getting emotional over it, the thermostat was low , went out and bought some clothes and it felt good. Fairly quickly I received a positive response from my W, that didn't last very long and seems to have died, so I lowered the thermostat again. I am ignoring her actions and just keep going. I can see the last few days it's been bothering her and this morning she had this sad look on her face as I was leaving for work and said I seem distant. At this point I realize that without the burden of my insecurities I don't feel very close to her at all. This is making the manning up thing easy but I'm left to wonder if all the years without genuine intimacy from her (not just lying there) has chipped away at my feelings for her. I have a feeling she is gonna wanna talk tonight and quite frankly I am intending on being brutally honest at this point and simply tell her that my needs are not being met and therefore I don't feel close to you anymore. I realize this will hurt a little and that isn't the intent but it is reality and I've decided that as soon as I fix myself I will get the relationship I want either with or without her.

Do you guys think it is worthwhile to have this talk or just keep going and don't say anything.

Thanks
Bill


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

If she asks you questions, answer them.

Remember, it's ok for us to talk about the relationship if THEY open the discussion and ask.

She'll never hear you if you whine. However, if she asks you questions, she's mentally prepared for answers.


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## bill2011 (Feb 5, 2011)

Conrad,

Thanks, I have no intention of whinning, matter of fact I feel very confident I could now have a conversation and remain calm without getting emotional. If she asks why I am distant, do I let it rip and tell her why. Or just keep the answers short.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

I fully recognize that one of the primary goals that we discuss about this subject, is regaining a relationship with your wife. It is a worthy goal.

However, let me give you another perspective and result of 'manning up'. You may discover that your partner is no longer someone you want to be partnered with.

You discover that you don't need them. You can be fully accountable to yourself, and responsible for your own happiness.

If your partner is not very emotionally healthy in the first place ... seeing this in you is going to scare the absolute sh!t out of them.

I want an upbeat, happy, healthy, engaging partner, not someone that looks to me to be their emotional punching bag when they think life isn't going their way.

It's empowering for you, and probably terrifying for her because you have completely up-ended the dysfunctional dynamic that she was content with.

So? Is this the woman you want to spend your life with, now that you have cleaned up your own emotional house? Does she want to build a life with you? Or does she simply want someone to suffer through it with her?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

bill2011 said:


> Conrad,
> 
> Thanks, I have no intention of whinning, matter of fact I feel very confident I could now have a conversation and remain calm without getting emotional. If she asks why I am distant, do I let it rip and tell her why. Or just keep the answers short.


I would suggest giving her things to think about.

Eliminate the word "you" from your vocabulary, as that puts the other immediately in defense.

Instead of, "you make me feel like dogcrap", it's "I feel like dogcrap when things don't work between us"

It very well could be that her actions are the catalyst for feeling like dogcrap, but blaming her does no good.

She needs to discover her role and responsibility in the relationship for it to work effectively. As MNG is finding in his thread, you simply cannot do this for another person.

What you can do is put them on defense and get them to blame you. That's the "easy" thing to do.


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## bill2011 (Feb 5, 2011)

Thanks, If a talk comes up then I will handle it without indicating blame. I know she is concerned because the dynamic has shifted I was the one to initiate everything and probably became clingy as my insecurities got the best of me. So she pushed away, now it is the complete opposite. My W has never refused sex so I do know she cares. I also understand that being too beta lies with me and I take responsibility for that as well. Can't fault her for her own primal instincts. We've tried many of times to have the conversation and she really just doesn't get it. She justifies this with saying all of her friends say the same thing and it is no big deal. Now I'll admit I take a warm body over nothing but it really does nothing for me to feel love and appreciation for someone who just lies thier. So now at this point like everyone here has said I can not control her, if asked I will once again state what my needs are and continue on my journey and see where it takes me.


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## MisterNiceGuy (Jan 26, 2011)

I'll ask the obvious... is she having an affair? Are you sure? I was sure my wife would never do it either. I started my manning up journey about six weeks ago when my wife really started to question our relationship. Four weeks later she hits me with a bomb that she has "feelings" for another man. Four days ago, I blew that up with the other guys wife. It's been a roller coaster. 

I know exactly what you talk about how hard it is to Man Up. It's really tough work and I think it really messes with our wives heads. I'm not sure my wife would've been so aggressively trying to get into an affair I hadn't found these books. I think it scared the sh!t out of her that I was going to upset the apple cart that was our marriage.


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## bill2011 (Feb 5, 2011)

MNG,

I don't think so, when everything blew up I let my insecurities get the best of me and did some checking, found nothing. I know my W felt I abandoned her when she needed emotional support but it wasn't on purpose on my end. I was just too busy being nice trying to get what I wanted out of the relationship. She reached out to friends (all women). So I am happy about that rather than another man. Ofcourse at first I even was jealous of that which is when I found my way over to TAM. So now I'm doing the man-up thing and I'm starting individual counselling as well. Not sure where I'll end up here with this but at least I will have made myself happier in the process. You have my sympathies for your situation and I wish you the best, just remain strong !!.


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

Bill,
Don't make the decision that your no longer compatible with your wife just yet. The dynamics of the relationship are changing, and your wife is probably trying to figure out WTF is going on. I felt the same way about my wife at about four weeks into my journey, because she was acting distant and I felt that I didn't need her anymore for my happiness, so maybe we've always been incompatible.

However, after about two more weeks, she got out of this phase as the new dynamics sorted themselves out. Just be positive, even when you think it may not be worth it. Things may change for the better with your wife, or you may truly realize that maybe you aren't really compatible afterball. Either way, you will be stronger for it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

Deejo, I couldn't agree more with your last post. I think I Fkd my wife up when she came back after her EA. I think she thought things were going to be exactly in that same comfy dynamic before we separated, but then she realized I wasn't the same person anymore, and that really scared the sh$t out of her, I think. Her behavior is different now, for the better, in that she knows she can't treat me like a doormat anymore because I won't take it, so even when she's upset now, she's still respectful to me, whereas before she would get crazy critical and demeaning.

But then again, that's the whole point of manning up now, isn't it! Lol!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bill2011 (Feb 5, 2011)

Alpha,

Thanks for the info, It has been somewhat spotty one day she's warm and the next few cold again. I just keep doing my thing and we'll see how it goes. Only thing of a concern is the lack of fitness tests, maybe had 2 in the last 2 weeks, So either I am still missing them or they're not there. I'm starting with a counselor on Monday so I am excited to keep moving forward and we'll see where everything lands. I did notice my wife was not happy about the counselor thing, her whole body language changed when I told her I'd be unable to do something because I would be late. But I just said it and went on about my buisness. I know it is too soon to tell how things will pan out but I am no longer afraid and like everyone has said I will be stronger for it.

-Bill


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

There's an old Arabic saying; "Women want roasted ice".

Do with that what you wish.


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## bill2011 (Feb 5, 2011)

Ok, so the talk never took place on that day, I just kept doing my thing, yesterday I decided to take my children to the park after doing some paperwork in the am. W was cleaning and not feeling good so I just took them with me and we had a great time. Got a text saying "we need to talk". Didn't let it bother me and stayed out as long as the kids wanted to. Got home at dinner it was clear she was angry, I ignored it and we all ate dinner. Afterwards she says she was hurt because she felt left out, I told her she didn't look like she wanted to go anywhere and left it at that. Told me I seem distant, I replied because you seem distant to me. Then tells me she sees that I am taking the more aggresive role in the relationship and that she will not always be passive, I calmly said I am just making myself a stronger person. This morning when I work she gave me a kiss and asked if I needed any errands to run. I am not expecting immediate results but she runs hot and cold from day to day and I'm wondering is it her or maybee I am not being consistient enough.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Bill,

Sounds like you're doing well.

I would issue a word of caution on the "tit for tat" nature of "I did this because of what you are doing"

You are taking initiative in your own life independent of what she is doing. Perhaps dissatisfaction with your relationship prompted introspection, but her distance isn't the reason you're seeming distant.

She may see that as blame shifting and revenge.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Bill,
Just a small but critical "tweak" here. Think about this:
Passive: You asking her what she wants to do
Aggressive: You taking the kids and not even asking if she wants to come
Assertive/Leadership: I am going to take the kids to do "X", would you like to come? 

Female 101: Even when I am CERTAIN my W will say no, I always ask her if she would like to do "x". Turns out sometimes I was wrong (maybe I am not so smart) and she does come   . That said she is always glad that I asked. 

As for folks with "difficult" partners. If they are jerky in how they respond you just give them a confused look. And go do what you were planning without another word. And for sure without a "love you, see you later" on your way out. 




bill2011 said:


> Ok, so the talk never took place on that day, I just kept doing my thing, yesterday I decided to take my children to the park after doing some paperwork in the am. W was cleaning and not feeling good so I just took them with me and we had a great time. Got a text saying "we need to talk". Didn't let it bother me and stayed out as long as the kids wanted to. Got home at dinner it was clear she was angry, I ignored it and we all ate dinner. Afterwards she says she was hurt because she felt left out, I told her she didn't look like she wanted to go anywhere and left it at that. Told me I seem distant, I replied because you seem distant to me. Then tells me she sees that I am taking the more aggresive role in the relationship and that she will not always be passive, I calmly said I am just making myself a stronger person. This morning when I work she gave me a kiss and asked if I needed any errands to run. I am not expecting immediate results but she runs hot and cold from day to day and I'm wondering is it her or maybee I am not being consistient enough.


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## bill2011 (Feb 5, 2011)

Conrad & MEM Thanks as always,

I do realize I should have asked her if she would have liked to come, and I told her I would ask next time. Something inside me didn't want to ask because I didn't want her to be there anyway. Just felt the need to get away. I guess I screwed up the distant thing, wasn't looking to blame her, My intent was to just state that if she doesn't want to be close then neither will I. Because I was the nice guy we already been through me acting desperate and being resentfull for all that I've done. I told her I am not going to put myself out there again like that every. Still have lot to learn here but everyone here is great and thanks for the support


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Bill,
You really are doing great and are moving through the learning curve with excellent speed. 

If you want space, I think it is fair to "take" it. Just not with the kids. So "babe, I am going to the gym/library/xxx for a couple hours tomorrow. What time would be least disruptive to you?

If she "asks" to come, hell - absent being in a fight I don't tell my W she "cannot" come with me unless I am meeting a guy friend for "guy" time. But then I consider my W asking to come part of the whole "in love" thing. At least it is for us. 



bill2011 said:


> Conrad & MEM Thanks as always,
> 
> I do realize I should have asked her if she would have liked to come, and I told her I would ask next time. Something inside me didn't want to ask because I didn't want her to be there anyway. Just felt the need to get away. I guess I screwed up the distant thing, wasn't looking to blame her, My intent was to just state that if she doesn't want to be close then neither will I. Because I was the nice guy we already been through me acting desperate and being resentfull for all that I've done. I told her I am not going to put myself out there again like that every. Still have lot to learn here but everyone here is great and thanks for the support


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## bill2011 (Feb 5, 2011)

MEM you and Conrad are my designated life coaches, I do realize what I did was childish. I wanted to spend some time with my kids because I haven't done much of that lately with all my emotional garbage I am cleaning out. The childish part was excluding my W. For personal space I am really enjoying the gym and just got bradshaw's audio book to listen to as well. In addition I starting counseling yesterday so looking forward to seeing if that helps. I'm still a rookie with a lot to learn but I'll keep moving forward. No changes on the homefront yet but this will be a battle of wills as my W now seems to be holding back also.


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

I don't think it's childish to exclude your wife. Maybe as long as you let her know that this is just kids and daddy time, so you can go get your hair done and have a np, or whatever. I did that all the time. Actually, I think my wife was grateful I gave her time to herself at home.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bill2011 (Feb 5, 2011)

Alpha,

I agree with your statement also, it was just childish the way I went about it, funny thing is I did try to sell it as that because she didn't look like she wanted to go anywhere LOL.

On another note, as you know I've been doing my thing and my W was holding back also the past week or so, this morning she broke and asked if we could talk. She acknowledged that I am changing and is afraid that I may not love her anymore. I remained very calm and stated that while that is a possiblity for both of us to feel that way, I am confident that we could get back what we had once before, she then asked me what I needed from her. I said I need to have intimacy with 2 active participants not one active and one passive. She acknowledged that this is an issue. I then asked what she needed from me and she said she she wishes I wasn't so passive sometimes. I acknowledged that I have been but said I am making myself a stronger person and don't intend to be going forward.

It is now boosting my confidence even more because while I been feeling good about myself it is now having a positive impact on my relationship as well. Still have a lot of work to do but looking forward to the day I can look back at all this and laugh at myself.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Bill,

Stay the course brother.

Remember, when "she" asks to talk about the relationship then it's ok. And you executed flawlessly.

Never ok to blame.

But, the statement, "I feel" or "I would prefer" is wholly acceptable when she asks for it.

It's needy like a child (to her) when she doesn't ask.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Conrad is right as usual. 

Bill - that was beautiful. I mean it. I really, really like that you and your W are both constructively discussing what you want/need from each other. 

My W is a little afraid of kayaking because of her mild phobia of water. She does however have a great time once she is out there. 

We have a lake nearby. If I say "would you like to kayak this weekend" the anxiety is now, the pleasure distant. So she says "lets see what happens" which mainly means "no".

If however I say to her on Saturday afternoon. "I am going kayaking, would love you to come" she just says "Yes" because her dislike of being "left out" is far greater than her mild fear of water, and because she knows the fun is just 30 minutes away. And then we go and she has a great time. 

Really knowing your wife - deeply knowing her - is a beautiful thing.




bill2011 said:


> Alpha,
> 
> I agree with your statement also, it was just childish the way I went about it, funny thing is I did try to sell it as that because she didn't look like she wanted to go anywhere LOL.
> 
> ...


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

[ Bingo! You the man! This is great success! Awesome work!



bill2011 said:


> Alpha,
> 
> I agree with your statement also, it was just childish the way I went about it, funny thing is I did try to sell it as that because she didn't look like she wanted to go anywhere LOL.
> 
> ...


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bill2011 (Feb 5, 2011)

Thanks Conrad,MEM & Alpha

You guys have been a big help in supporting me, thanks !!. I buy you all a virtual beer !. It is a good feeling but I feel a little vulnerable right now cause when my W is sincere it does melt me a little. So I just have to stay strong and make sure I don't revert just because a little progress was made today.

I am now confident I know what's happen all these years and take comfort in knowing the facts so to speak, Now my focus is fixing why I am this way as it is still a great effort to behave properly and it isn't natural yet.

-Bill


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Bill,
Conrad said something that is key to ALL of this. You let HER bring up the relationship. You have to stick with that. You can do all the things we suggest when she fit tests you. But you only talk about your feelings - only only only - when she wants to talk about hers. And even then - the fewer words you use the better. And the more you stay with your theme of "how I feel about you as a wife is largely driven by how you prioritize MY needs" the better off you are. 




bill2011 said:


> Thanks Conrad,MEM & Alpha
> 
> You guys have been a big help in supporting me, thanks !!. I buy you all a virtual beer !. It is a good feeling but I feel a little vulnerable right now cause when my W is sincere it does melt me a little. So I just have to stay strong and make sure I don't revert just because a little progress was made today.
> 
> ...


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## bill2011 (Feb 5, 2011)

I agree and it is great advice, I did probably say a little too much but did not get emotional at all. I struggled all week not to bring anything up and at times wasn't sure if i'd break before her. My W is quite stubborn and strong willed. But I see now that it means I must be stronger than her which is quite a tall order but I'm up for the challenge.

Something I found useful that others might benefit from is my great fixing abilities. I decided when in doubt I would pretend I was talking to myself and offer advice to myself. So for once in my life I am using my skills to fix myself rather than others problems.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

*Tactics tactics*

Bill,
You know what I do when I am really upset but I KNOW it is destructive to bring it up? 

I write little counseling sessions. Not kidding. They look like this:

Me: Today my W did THIS, and that made me feel THAT. 
Her: Today I did this because ..... (my best guess) - it could be that she is just stressed or maybe I did something yesterday
Me: What I want her to realize is
Her: What I want him to do is

The thing is I don't talk to her about what happened unless she brings it up. Turns out that works really well. And sometimes she doesn't and thats ok as well as it is out of my system. 

Your W said something very powerful to you. She wants you to lead and she is afraid you won't love her. Both those are good. If she wants more love - let her come to you. She will. 



bill2011 said:


> I agree and it is great advice, I did probably say a little too much but did not get emotional at all. I struggled all week not to bring anything up and at times wasn't sure if i'd break before her. My W is quite stubborn and strong willed. But I see now that it means I must be stronger than her which is quite a tall order but I'm up for the challenge.
> 
> Something I found useful that others might benefit from is my great fixing abilities. I decided when in doubt I would pretend I was talking to myself and offer advice to myself. So for once in my life I am using my skills to fix myself rather than others problems.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

bill2011 said:


> I agree and it is great advice, I did probably say a little too much but did not get emotional at all. I struggled all week not to bring anything up and at times wasn't sure if i'd break before her. My W is quite stubborn and strong willed. But I see now that it means I must be stronger than her which is quite a tall order but I'm up for the challenge.
> 
> Something I found useful that others might benefit from is my great fixing abilities. I decided when in doubt I would pretend I was talking to myself and offer advice to myself. So for once in my life I am using my skills to fix myself rather than others problems.


And that is the true road to happiness and contentment.

Counting on another for it is a formula for frustration and discontent.


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## bill2011 (Feb 5, 2011)

Mem - When she said those things I realized how powerful they were. She did say she backed off because she was confused by my sudden change and thought I needed space. I told her when I need space I will let you know. My only concern is to wait for her to come and get love will definitely be at a level that won't cut it for me, but I intend on sticking it through. I haven't yet mastered to happy go lucky self yet and probably still come off as distant to her. It is hard to act normal and yet not do the things you've always done. During the conversation she said ILY several times however I did not say it back. She was somewhat taken back when I said I need things to get back to what we once had. She didn't like that comment but it is the truth as I told her that is what I need to continue the marriage.

She has become quite playful lately even physical at times. Ofcourse I make sure to always win and we laugh and have a good time. I take this as a positive step also.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Bill,
Are you hitting the gym at least 4 times a week? Strength training at least 2 times a week? Big mood elevator. 

You want to try a little game. Take a shower at night. Get her in the bedroom and get her to wrestle you - at this point you are clean and smell nice - it amps the effect. After you over power her - just look at her and say "take your shirt off". Use a light edge. See what happens. If she DOES - you have just found a huge reservoir of untapped desire to play with. 

If she challenges you with "make me", then up the physicality. Maybe that is tickling, maybe threatening to spank her if she doesn't. 




bill2011 said:


> Mem - When she said those things I realized how powerful they were. She did say she backed off because she was confused by my sudden change and thought I needed space. I told her when I need space I will let you know. My only concern is to wait for her to come and get love will definitely be at a level that won't cut it for me, but I intend on sticking it through. I haven't yet mastered to happy go lucky self yet and probably still come off as distant to her. It is hard to act normal and yet not do the things you've always done. During the conversation she said ILY several times however I did not say it back. She was somewhat taken back when I said I need things to get back to what we once had. She didn't like that comment but it is the truth as I told her that is what I need to continue the marriage.
> 
> She has become quite playful lately even physical at times. Ofcourse I make sure to always win and we laugh and have a good time. I take this as a positive step also.


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## less_disgruntled (Oct 16, 2010)

Conrad said:


> And that is the true road to happiness and contentment.
> 
> Counting on another for it is a formula for frustration and discontent.


Is he allowed to "need" her to take the kids if he needs to do something that involves not having them around? Or is that needy? E.g., "I need you to watch the kids tomorrow, I have a meeting out of town and it's going to take me a couple hours to get home"? Or should he say "I'm getting a babysitter b/c I'm going to get home late tomorrow" and wait for his wife to 'offer' to step up?

B/c that's part of what I'm getting, though I might be a little bit too literal here.


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## bill2011 (Feb 5, 2011)

Mem,

I'm looking forward to playing like that and won't miss those opportunities. I am hitting the gym 6 days a week, cardio 3x and strength 3x and I enjoy the workout time to unwind my mind.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Bill,
Unless you are in the middle of a conflict right now - do it tonight. She asked you to be less passive. I realize this is a "risky" move. That said if she rejects you just look her in the eye and say in a very matter of fact tone:
"You said you were afraid I would not love you - and that you wanted me to be less passive" then pause and let that sink in. 

When it does add "When you decide what it is you really want let me know" 

And then unless she wants to have sex, go sleep somewhere else. Seriously. While my W and I have had our share of frequency challenges, she has only played head games with me over sex 3 times in 21 years. Twice in the first 6 months, and once 2 years ago. And each time she got a very swift, calm and firm response. And each time she realized "ooops - that was a huge mistake". 




bill2011 said:


> Mem,
> 
> I'm looking forward to playing like that and won't miss those opportunities. I am hitting the gym 6 days a week, cardio 3x and strength 3x and I enjoy the workout time to unwind my mind.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

less_disgruntled said:


> Is he allowed to "need" her to take the kids if he needs to do something that involves not having them around? Or is that needy? E.g., "I need you to watch the kids tomorrow, I have a meeting out of town and it's going to take me a couple hours to get home"? Or should he say "I'm getting a babysitter b/c I'm going to get home late tomorrow" and wait for his wife to 'offer' to step up?
> 
> B/c that's part of what I'm getting, though I might be a little bit too literal here.


Literally - simply sitting your woman down and telling her that you are feeling lonely and/or her response isn't cutting it in bed..... just sounds "needy".

She groups you in with the children (at best) as one more ticket to punch and/or something else to remember.

At worst? She resents the crap out of your comment and looks for emotional support elsewhere.


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## less_disgruntled (Oct 16, 2010)

Conrad said:


> Literally - simply sitting your woman down and telling her that you are feeling lonely and/or her response isn't cutting it in bed..... just sounds "needy".


No I get that, but sometimes what I don't get is whether it's going to come off as needy to ask/tell someone to take care of a shared responsibility.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

less_disgruntled said:


> No I get that, but sometimes what I don't get is whether it's going to come off as needy to ask/tell someone to take care of a shared responsibility.


If you have a conflict, it's perfectly ok to ask them to shoulder the load.

If they say no, it may be a fitness test to see how you react.

Just be careful.


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## less_disgruntled (Oct 16, 2010)

Conrad said:


> If they say no, it may be a fitness test to see how you react.


Sounds like it could be lose/lose to me! Calm, cool, collected: "Okay, I'll get a babysitter!" b/c something tells me "Well, I guess the kids are going to have to spend a lot of time sitting in the car, then, while you go get appletinis again" would be a losing response. And a few weeks later, you have a live-in au pair. And live-in maid... and gardener... and... oh look, I seem to have divorce papers in my back pocket!


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I just do this: "I have an "event" on X date, can you watch the kids or do I need to get a sitter"? Her choice. 




less_disgruntled said:


> Is he allowed to "need" her to take the kids if he needs to do something that involves not having them around? Or is that needy? E.g., "I need you to watch the kids tomorrow, I have a meeting out of town and it's going to take me a couple hours to get home"? Or should he say "I'm getting a babysitter b/c I'm going to get home late tomorrow" and wait for his wife to 'offer' to step up?
> 
> B/c that's part of what I'm getting, though I might be a little bit too literal here.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

less_disgruntled said:


> Sounds like it could be lose/lose to me! Calm, cool, collected: "Okay, I'll get a babysitter!" b/c something tells me "Well, I guess the kids are going to have to spend a lot of time sitting in the car, then, while you go get appletinis again" would be a losing response. And a few weeks later, you have a live-in au pair. And live-in maid... and gardener... and... oh look, I seem to have divorce papers in my back pocket!


If you find an au pair that's willing to have sex with you, you're way ahead of the game.

(Oink, oink)


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## bill2011 (Feb 5, 2011)

Mem,

I would do it except she is out of action for the next few days, I got some action this morning after our talk. I will wait a few days and definitely do this.

I also now think one of the areas I need to step up on is our kids, she has a tendency is yell and scream and then doesn't let it go and just nags them to no avail. In the past I avoided this conflict and kept quiet. The kids will then tune her out and she gets frustrated. This happened last night and I step in and cut both of them off and said "enough". She took offense to this and said she should be able to talk to our son when she needs to. I told her very calmy it is not productive to keep arguing with him. You told him what to do and he needs to do it period.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Bill,
Good - glad you are connecting. That is great. As for the kids, if you get good at backing her up she will love that. 

I put some edge in my tone of voice and say to our kid/kids - do what your mother asked RIGHT NOW. And then I ask her afterwards to let me help her with the kids, that we should act as a team. Often we stand shoulder to shoulder facing a kid and tell them what is going to happen. Very effective. 

And after you have more cred - you teach her what/how to do what you are doing with them so she is more effective. But first you have to demonstrate it in front of her a few times with consistent results. 




bill2011 said:


> Mem,
> 
> I would do it except she is out of action for the next few days, I got some action this morning after our talk. I will wait a few days and definitely do this.
> 
> I also now think one of the areas I need to step up on is our kids, she has a tendency is yell and scream and then doesn't let it go and just nags them to no avail. In the past I avoided this conflict and kept quiet. The kids will then tune her out and she gets frustrated. This happened last night and I step in and cut both of them off and said "enough". She took offense to this and said she should be able to talk to our son when she needs to. I told her very calmy it is not productive to keep arguing with him. You told him what to do and he needs to do it period.


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## bill2011 (Feb 5, 2011)

She didn't take it as me backing her at first, she mentioned it again today and I simply stated I felt it was counter productive and there is no need for you to argue with them. I told her if I need to step in again I will, she agreed at that point. In general when I'm home I do re-enforce what my W tells them to do, I've gotten much better at that too. I would never tell her this but when she gets going I used to tune her out also - LOL. Eventually I would like her to comminicate more effective with them, but I must master it first. I no longer fear getting in the middle of things If I feel I have to. That is probably one of my biggest steps. In the past I've feared that she would turn the anger on to me so I avoided the situation. If she does that now than I will just handle it as a test and respond


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> Bill,
> Good - glad you are connecting. That is great. As for the kids, if you get good at backing her up she will love that.
> 
> I put some edge in my tone of voice and say to our kid/kids - do what your mother asked RIGHT NOW. And then I ask her afterwards to let me help her with the kids, that we should act as a team. Often we stand shoulder to shoulder facing a kid and tell them what is going to happen. Very effective.
> ...



Just as a disclaimer, this is not what I'd recommend with stepchildren.

With them, it's best to simply focus on respect. If you and your spouse have discipline issues, best to bring them up off-line and plan ahead.


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