# Men - The Forgotten Gender



## tulsy (Nov 30, 2012)

I saw this on reddit and found it very interesting...TED talk, Deepika Bhardwaj.


```
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_2gl7lz25E
```
Disturbing reality


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## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

You're gonna get it.


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## tulsy (Nov 30, 2012)

Forest said:


> You're gonna get it.


:scratchhead:


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## MarriedDude (Jun 21, 2014)

In terms of domestic violence...It behooves both men and women to make their mate selection very carefully. 

There is no shortage of crazy in this world. 

However, I have witnessed only 1 (one) case of a false domestic violence claim..Only 1. It was pretty bad, blatant,outrageous. However, she was charged with filing a false complaint and paid a fine. He still spent the night in Jail and couldn't live in his house for about 2 weeks until it got sorted out. 

I have seen WAY WAY WAY more people charged with beating their wives and children that actually did and do it. 

Too bad we don't live on planet fair.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Seriously? India still has a caste system. India still sells child brides. India does not go after men who toss acid on women's faces for turning their proposal down.

I couldn't stomach more than 2 minutes of that video.

There are lousy rotten people everywhere but India is a country where women are never treated equally.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

The issue is equal application of the law. The fact that India has a HUGE problem with mistreating women does not invalidate the mistreatment of men on an individual basis. You can't say to a man who's legitimately mistreated "Sorry, but your case doesn't matter because 10 women were mistreated to your one case". They all deserve justice.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Totally agree Fozzy but those numbers look more like 100 women to one man.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Not arguing at all. The lady giving the talk made her mistake with the title. It's needlessly inflammatory. I believe she meant it to garner sympathy from wronged men, but I think a title like that is automatically going to get a lot of women's backs up.

Her argument against this dowry law is sound however. A law that give a woman the power to drag a man's entire family to jail over a dowry---elderly and children included? Nope.

Edit--the family getting arrested also includes the women in the family.


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## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

tulsy said:


> :scratchhead:


You're beginning to get a taste. Be patient.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

LOL, yeah, here it comes.


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## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

Wow I cannot believe how protecting women becomes all about the poor men. 

This is outrageous. 

The dowry laws were brought in because so many women are murdered every year it's actually staggering. Something has to be done. Even with the law the conviction rate is so low and the sentencing is often very short. The laws are still lacking. 

Woman killed over dowry 'every hour' in India - Telegraph

How any one could turn this into a men's rights issue baffles me. 

Women are being tortured and murdered and having acid poured on them. 

It's sickening.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

The volume on that video is so low I cannot hear what she is saying.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Can someone give a brief on what the video is about?

Dowry.. I get that. But what about it?


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

So how about doing away with dowrys altogether, rather than jailing the groom's 6 year old cousin?


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> Can someone give a brief on what the video is about?
> 
> Dowry.. I get that. But what about it?


The main thrust of the video is that some women in India are abusing laws designed to protect them by filing legal actions against their husbands' entire families due to having paid them a dowry. As a result, the entire family is arrested. Convictions are low, although I'm not sure if that's due to crappy prosecution or if the numbers are getting skewed by the police letting Grandma walk eventually.


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## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> Can someone give a brief on what the video is about?
> 
> Dowry.. I get that. But what about it?


From what I saw it was about men being taken to court for asking or forcing a woman and her family to pay a dowry. In India it is now illegal and still continues. So I believe if found guilty there is a maximum sentence of two years and fine to pay. If other family members were involved and they often are, they too can be charged and sentenced and fined. 

However the conviction rate is low. 

This video was about the poor men being dragged to court and having to suffer. 

It mentions nothing of the thousands and thousands of dowry murders of women every year, and acid burning a. 

Sorry you didn't ask for all that info...lol


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Fozzy said:


> The main thrust of the video is that some women in India are abusing laws designed to protect them by filing legal actions against their husbands' entire families due to having paid them a dowry. As a result, the entire family is arrested. Convictions are low, although I'm not sure if that's due to crappy prosecution or if the numbers are getting skewed by the police letting Grandma walk eventually.


Isn't it illegal to pay a dowry now in India?

Are you saying that the woman brings charges simply because her H & his family were paid a dowry? 

Or is it because of what they did with the dowry? 

Or because they are demanding more and more, sort of blackmail.. if you don't pay us more we will hurt the wife? (This happens a lot. then if her family does not pay more, the husband and his family kill the wife.)

India, the land of women dying in kitchen fires.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

*LittleDeer* said:


> From what I saw it was about men being taken to court for asking or forcing a woman and her family to pay a dowry. In India it is now illegal and still continues. So I believe if found guilty there is a maximum sentence of two years and fine to pay. If other family members were involved and they often are, they too can be charged and sentenced and fined.
> 
> However the conviction rate is low.
> 
> ...


Yes I did ask for all of that. Thanks


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> Isn't it illegal to pay a dowry now in India?
> 
> Are you saying that the woman brings charges simply because her H & his family were paid a dowry?
> 
> ...


Not really possible to say why they're bringing the charges, since there's such huge numbers. I'd imagine the majority of the charges are legit.

My point is that justice requires equal application of the law. Chalking up the small percentage of men and their family who get imprisoned out of spite as acceptable for the greater good doesn't fly with me. Same reason I'm against the death penalty. If you could guarantee me every single person convicted was really guilty, i'd throw the switch myself. But one innocent being put to death is too much.


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## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

Fozzy said:


> Not really possible to say why they're bringing the charges, since there's such huge numbers. I'd imagine the majority of the charges are legit.
> 
> My point is that justice requires equal application of the law. Chalking up the small percentage of men and their family who get imprisoned out of spite as acceptable for the greater good doesn't fly with me. Same reason I'm against the death penalty. If you could guarantee me every single person convicted was really guilty, i'd throw the switch myself. But one innocent being put to death is too much.


I'm against the death penalty tool this is not comparable. For one it's not permanent. 

Something has to be done to stop dowry payments. What do you propose? 

Of course there are a small number of men who are innocent, however I would imagine as paying dowries is rampant and the conviction rate is low and thousands of women are murdered every year over dowries, yet rarely is anyone ever brought to justice over that- it's obvious that far more men get away with demanding dowries and hurting and killing women then innocent men go to jail.


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## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> Can someone give a brief on what the video is about?


While we're at it, can someone also give a brief recap of The View, and Ellen for today?


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## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

tulsy said:


> :scratchhead:


You silly, silly, man.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

*LittleDeer* said:


> I'm against the death penalty tool this is not comparable. For one it's not permanent.
> 
> Something has to be done to stop dowry payments. What do you propose?
> 
> Of course there are a small number of men who are innocent, however I would imagine as paying dowries is rampant and the conviction rate is low and thousands of women are murdered every year over dowries, yet rarely is anyone ever brought to justice over that- it's obvious that far more men get away with demanding dowries and hurting and killing women then innocent men go to jail.


Yes that's true. I won't argue that women get the raw end of the deal far more than men do. It doesn't make it right to ignore it when men are shafted.

I don't know what the solution is. If I did, the Nobel committee would be knocking on my door. I do know that any law that allows children to be imprisoned is not the answer.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Fozzy said:


> Not really possible to say why they're bringing the charges, since there's such huge numbers. I'd imagine the majority of the charges are legit.


This is right. We don’t know if the charges are legit or not. We live half a world away, don’t speak the language, and don’t know the culture. 

India has a lot of laws and customs that are basically horrific. There are people working to drag their system into the 21st century… but it will take a long time.

Our judicial system pretty broken as well.


Fozzy said:


> My point is that justice requires equal application of the law. Chalking up the small percentage of men and their family who get imprisoned out of spite as acceptable for the greater good doesn't fly with me. Same reason I'm against the death penalty. If you could guarantee me every single person convicted was really guilty, i'd throw the switch myself. But one innocent being put to death is too much.


It would think that in order to bring charges evidence needs to exist. The reason that the man and some of his family are arrested is in India this is a family affair. It’s very likely that the extortion is being done by many people in the husband’s family. 

Of course innocents being false charged is not good. Of course they need to do more to fix their judicial system so that it helps to get as close to eliminating actions being taken on false accusations. 

India does need the laws however. Extortion is a crime here in the USA as well. This is about a particular type of extortion uses the threatened murder of a woman as the threated to enforce the extortion.


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## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

Also the reason a six year old would go to jail would be if the mother wanted to take the child with them or if there were no family members suitable to take care of the child. Most mothers in India take their children to jai with them.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Fozzy said:


> Yes that's true. I won't argue that women get the raw end of the deal far more than men do. It doesn't make it right to ignore it when men are shafted.
> 
> I don't know what the solution is. If I did, the Nobel committee would be knocking on my door. I do know that any law that allows children to be imprisoned is not the answer.


Of course it's not right when anyone gets shafted, murdered, etc.

The solution is that India needs to work to fix their system.

They need to stop the large number of women who are killed because their husband and his family cannot get any more money from her family.. so it's time for him to marry his next victim.

They needs to stop false accusations for any crime, no matter what the crime is. I doubt anyone would argue with this.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

*LittleDeer* said:


> Also the reason a six year old would go to jail would be if the mother wanted to take the child with them or if there were no family members suitable to take care of the child. Most mothers take their children to jai with them.


In 3rd world countries they do not have things like foster parent programs to farm out the children of someone who is incarcerated. So the children often are put in jail with their mother.

The child was not arrested. He was kept in his parent's care. 

This is what happens in countries that have no social welfare programs.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Forest said:


> While we're at it, can someone also give a brief recap of The View, and Ellen for today?


?????? why the snide post?


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> In 3rd world countries they do not have things like foster parent programs to farm out the children of someone who is incarcerated. So the children often are put in jail with their mother.
> 
> The child was not arrested. He was kept in his parent's care.
> 
> This is what happens in countries that have no social welfare programs.


I can see this happening in most cases, however the video showed a criminal charge specifically naming children.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Fozzy said:


> Not arguing at all. The lady giving the talk made her mistake with the title. It's needlessly inflammatory. I believe she meant it to garner sympathy from wronged men, but I think a title like that is automatically going to get a lot of women's backs up.
> 
> Her argument against this dowry law is sound however. A law that give a woman the power to drag a man's entire family to jail over a dowry---elderly and children included? Nope.
> 
> Edit--the family getting arrested also includes the women in the family.


The reason that the a many members of the man's family get dragged in is that in India, dowries and dowry extortion is a family affair. If members of his extended family are arrested, there is probably evidence that they were all involved in the extortion. Yes even grandma.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> The reason that the a many members of the man's family get dragged in is that in India, dowries and dowry extortion is a family affair. If members of his extended family are arrested, there is probably evidence that they were all involved in the extortion. Yes even grandma.


This is the real question then. If there's evidence, why such a low conviction rate? Again it goes back to how much of this is crappy prosecution, vs how much abuse?


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## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> ?????? why the snide post?


Its seems of a relative appropriateness.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Fozzy said:


> I can see this happening in most cases, however the video showed a criminal charge specifically naming children.


OK.. as I said I cannot hear the video so I did not see that. if I can find a way to increase the volume I'll watch it.


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## Anonymous07 (Aug 4, 2012)

Fozzy said:


> This is the real question then. If there's evidence, why such a low conviction rate? Again it goes back to how much of this is *crappy prosecution*, vs how much abuse?


It's probably more of the first(bolded) than the latter. Their system is very corrupt, so it's fairly easy to get out of being found guilty. 

The documentary called "It's a Girl" touches on the dowry issue a tiny bit. It's an interesting and very sad video.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening all
It seems to me that there are deep problems in some parts of Indian society, in particular with how women are treated. I'm not blaming a Billion people in a diverse society but there are parts o of the society where this is a huge problem. 

All sorts of other evil results from that base problem. Honor killings, gang rapes, and now this.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Fozzy said:


> This is the real question then. If there's evidence, why such a low conviction rate? Again it goes back to how much of this is crappy prosecution, vs how much abuse?


I posted a link below that talks about this.

Apparently, although dowries are illegal for both the wife's family to pay and for the husband's family to demand, they are still part of 90% of marriages in India. 

Both sides of apparently keep invoices to so that they have proof of what the dowry was. 

The article below is interesting.

India high court’s ‘disgruntled wives’ ruling tests dowry laws enacted to protect women - The Washington Post


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## Maria Canosa Gargano (Jan 30, 2015)

I am all for bringing to light injustices to men.

But saying the laws against dowry killings can lead to unfair prosecutions to men isn't one of them.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

I have a suggested novel approach to solving this problem.

How about the men and their families stop demanding that women and the women's family pay them for the marriage? It's been illegal since the 1960's. 

Follow the law. Get an affidavit signed at the time of the marriage that no dowry was paid.


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## Maria Canosa Gargano (Jan 30, 2015)

If we want to talk about ways in which men are treated unfairly because of their gender there are a myriad of topics. 

We could talk about how men...

have difficulty getting custody
have to pay more than their fair share of divorce even if they were cheated on
are viewed as all potential rapists
are associated with violence in general
are taught to suppress their emotions
are persecuted if homosexual more so than lesbians
are expected to be the stoic pillar
are judged by how much money they make
are held to unrealistic body expectations

Dowries that women must pay to men and that some men are getting prosecuted who may or may not be innocent are not an issue facing men. 

But if we want to talk about how men are the forgotten gender there is plenty to discuss.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

Fozzy said:


> LOL, yeah, here it comes.






*LittleDeer* said:


> Wow I cannot believe how protecting women becomes all about the poor men.
> 
> This is outrageous.
> 
> ...



The timing!!

:rofl:

Beautiful!!


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## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

tacoma said:


> The timing!!
> 
> :rofl:
> 
> Beautiful!!


Oh it's hilarious, imagine posting something controversial, and people commenting. 

Should I go and post something about controversial about men in the women's section and then poke fun at the men who respond?


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## tulsy (Nov 30, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> ...
> 
> I couldn't stomach more than 2 minutes of that video.
> ...


You can't even watch it?? Then how can you comment on it? 



*LittleDeer* said:


> ...
> 
> How any one could turn this into a men's rights issue baffles me. ....


You don't see the irony in that? You instantly turned this into a women's rights issue. 



EleGirl said:


> OK.. as I said I cannot hear the video so I did not see that. if I can find a way to increase the volume I'll watch it.


So you too didn't even watch it? 
*You had 12 comments in a 3 page thread about a video you didn't even watch?* :scratchhead:


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## BronzeTorpedo (Dec 17, 2014)

*LittleDeer* said:


> Oh it's hilarious, imagine posting something controversial, and people commenting.
> 
> Should I go and post something about controversial about men in the women's section and then poke fun at the men who respond?


Not if you want to stand out.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

*LittleDeer* said:


> Should I go and post something about controversial about men in the women's section and then poke fun at the men who respond?


Here is the funny part. You say that as if you don't already do it. Perhaps not in the form of posting a link, but all you do is create controversy with your rants about us evil men.


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## GTdad (Aug 15, 2011)

vellocet said:


> Here is the funny part. You say that as if you don't already do it. Perhaps not in the form of posting a link, but all you do is create controversy with your rants about us evil men.


I was about to say, she brought it up as though it was a hypothetical situation. :rofl:


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Here is the thing, LD is absolutely correct with regards to dowry murders, acid burnings, and all the crap women have to go through in countries like this.

But like Fozzy said, injustices against men are not null and void because there are injustices against women.

And LD will be there to throw out strawman arguments to put us evil men in our place.


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## tulsy (Nov 30, 2012)

vellocet said:


> ...
> 
> ...injustices against men are not null and void because there are injustices against women.
> ....


Exactly.


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## Pooh Bear (Dec 28, 2014)

Forest said:


> You silly, silly, man.



What is your problems with having a discussion, Forest? We can discuss these things like adults. There seems to be some debate over whether men or women have it worse on this website. Women have it worse worldwide. But there are injustices against men and we can talk about that. I'm not sure if this poster is from India or what he knows about this or if he just found it on the web and passed it on. I don't know a lot about India. But I do not know female fetuses are aborted solely for being female. I do know that there is a lot of violence against women in India. What was on Ellen or the View?


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## Pooh Bear (Dec 28, 2014)

tulsy said:


> You can't even watch it?? Then how can you comment on it?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I watched part of it. I didn't understand the complexities of it. Do you? Are you from India? I'm actually not sure why this speaker would make this an international issue when it is pretty specific to India. Maybe it was only meant to be for an Indian audience. I know that western countries have often interfered with other countries affairs so maybe that is her purpose in getting a larger audience. She does not seem to be telling the full story though. And really, 'why should I care about men' as if she had a laissez-faire attitude about men before this? I don't know. I know men and women are very separated in Indian culture so maybe that is possible.

If dowries are illegal why is the populus still trying to force it? Why should a woman's family have to pay anything for her to marry? I can understand parents of kids on both sides helping to get a couple started but a dowrey is pretty unfair to the woman and her family. And it makes her kind of an object. Like someone could only marry her for that dowrey. But to be fair one could argue that there are women who only marry men for their money in the US. 

Ele was having a hard time bringing it up on her computer and that's why she couldn't watch it.


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## tulsy (Nov 30, 2012)

Pooh Bear said:


> What is your problems with having a discussion, Forest? We can discuss these things like adults....


Forest said that in jest. He was just was busting my ballz, PB. :smthumbup:


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## BronzeTorpedo (Dec 17, 2014)

Pooh Bear said:


> If dowries are illegal why is the populus still trying to force it?


Portions of all cultures reject the notion that their actions must be approved by politicians.



> Why should a woman's family have to pay anything for her to marry? I can understand parents of kids on both sides helping to get a couple started but a dowrey is pretty unfair to the woman and her family. And it makes her kind of an object. Like someone could only marry her for that dowrey. But to be fair one could argue that there are women who only marry men for their money in the US.


Help establishing young couples is one reason for a dowry. It can also be used to enhance a young woman's prospects. An uneducated, unrefined, unattractive woman whose family is wealthy and is willing to provide a large dowry may be able to marry above her station, so to speak. A dowry can also protect women by being subject to being forfeit is the husband mistreats his wife. There are probably other reasons that dowries evolved over the years.


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## tulsy (Nov 30, 2012)

Pooh Bear said:


> I watched part of it.


It's only 19 minutes long.



Pooh Bear said:


> I didn't understand the complexities of it. Do you?


Yes, I understand what she was talking about. I didn't find it too complex to grasp what she was saying.



Pooh Bear said:


> Are you from India?


No, I'm not from India. Why, does that matter? 
Actually, I can answer that...it doesn't matter.



Pooh Bear said:


> I'm actually not sure why this speaker would make this an international issue when it is pretty specific to India. Maybe it was only meant to be for an Indian audience. I know that western countries have often interfered with other countries affairs so maybe that is her purpose in getting a larger audience. She does not seem to be telling the full story though. And really, 'why should I care about men' as if she had a laissez-faire attitude about men before this? I don't know. I know men and women are very separated in Indian culture so maybe that is possible.


Why do you have a problem with her talking about this to an international audience?
I'm pretty sure it was meant for all audiences, not just people in/from India (hence TED). She's just trying to make people aware of this issue.

You are pretty sure she's not telling the whole story, and yet you didn't even watch the whole video clip, a whopping 19 minute exert. If you watch the whole clip, you'd definitely have more to the story than you do now.

Honestly, I imagine there is more to just about every story, but what is so hard to grasp about her particular topic? 
She's reporting on a topic that isn't very popular, but it should still be brought to peoples awareness.



Pooh Bear said:


> If dowries are illegal why is the populus still trying to force it? Why should a woman's family have to pay anything for her to marry? I can understand parents of kids on both sides helping to get a couple started but a dowrey is pretty unfair to the woman and her family. And it makes her kind of an object. Like someone could only marry her for that dowrey. But to be fair one could argue that there are women who only marry men for their money in the US.


Dowry is *NOT* the prevailing the topic of this TED talk, if you watch the whole thing. Although she does mention dowry violence, she's shedding light on the fact that men and their whole families are being falsely accused and assumed guilty until proven innocent, and even once they have proven their innocence, their reputation has been ruined.

Honestly, why are women so offended by this topic?

Gender should not be a concern when it comes to justice. Men can be victims too. 

If I had to sum it up, I'd say:

_*Some laws that were created to protect one gender are being high-jacked to oppress another. *_



Pooh Bear said:


> Ele was having a hard time bringing it up on her computer and that's why she couldn't watch it.


I realize that.
I read that she couldn't hear it.

I don't comment on how much I dislike "50 Shade of Grey" because I haven't watched the movie or read any of the books. For all I know, I may actually enjoy it. Regardless, how can I discuss what that movie is about if I haven't even watched it yet?


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

I recommend actually watching the video and then commenting on it. What the woman is talking about are laws that were put in place for noble reasons but they are being abused more often than they're being used. She's pointing out that the laws are used as a weapon rather than protection and this is a bad thing for everyone; especially women who the laws were intended to help. It's only 19 minutes long so it's not asking much to hear the content first and then decide what we think about it. A key point here is that men should be held accountable for their own actions and not the actions of other men. Most women would not want the men they love (fathers, brothers, sons, etc) to be punished for things other men do. That's pretty simple isn't it?


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## Pooh Bear (Dec 28, 2014)

tulsy said:


> It's only 19 minutes long.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Because if you were from India you would know more. I mean half truths are told all the time in places. I'm from the US and half truths are told all the time. That's part of the political milieu and it drives me nuts. Your posting this as if you understand what is happening in that culture and you don't. I mean really it doesn't matter whether we watch this or we research this issue. We could probably find out more by researching. Some of this is just playing on emotion and shock value.

And you're also posting this making a claim that men have it so hard in the world. And some men do. But the very title of this - men: the forgotten gender. I don't think so. Not forgotten anywhere. I realize that there are men who feel forgotten because they don't feel like they have power in the world. But they still feel powerful over women. Proof of that is the way these same men sexualize women to make themselves feel more powerful. And black men do not have as much power as white men. Unfortunately there are these levels of inequality amongst men. 

If this is truly an injustice against men then India needs to clean it up. But I can't do that since I'm not Indian. I would love it if I could stop women over there from aborting their female babies. I would love to stop gang rapes over there. But that is something they have to do.


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## MarriedDude (Jun 21, 2014)

Fozzy said:


> This is the real question then. If there's evidence, why such a low conviction rate? Again it goes back to how much of this is crappy prosecution, vs how much abuse?


I'm not from India...But I suspect, if they are anything like the US. 

Neither evidence or the truth are frequently ever really enough to get a conviction for anything. 

Well....at least where I live


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## BronzeTorpedo (Dec 17, 2014)

Pooh Bear said:


> And you're also posting this making a claim that men have it so hard in the world. And some men do. But the very title of this - men: the forgotten gender. I don't think so. Not forgotten anywhere. I realize that there are men who feel forgotten because they don't feel like they have power in the world. But they still feel powerful over women. Proof of that is the way these same men sexualize women to make themselves feel more powerful.


So, men who object to being jailed or hauled into court and required to prove their innocence, even though they did nothing wrong, are just being crybabies because women are sexualized? That makes no sense.

You've jumped the shark here. One issue is whether men, and their families, should face jail time even when innocent. An entirely separate issue is women being sexualized. Although I don't see women as the same passive actors that you do. I don't know that men sexualize women. I think women can sexualize themselves. I've even seen slvt walks where women run around in lingerie showing the world how empowered they are. Do you think men made them do that?



> If this is truly an injustice against men then India needs to clean it up. But I can't do that since I'm not Indian. I would love it if I could stop women over there from aborting their female babies. I would love to stop gang rapes over there. But that is something they have to do.


Sure. I agree. It reminds me of the apocryphal quote attributed to Mark Twain, "Everybody talks about the weather, but nobody does anything about it."

If we should refrain from discussing topics over which we have little power to enact change, I suggest we post a very short list of topics that WOULD be acceptable to discuss.


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## Pooh Bear (Dec 28, 2014)

MarriedDude said:


> I'm not from India...But I suspect, if they are anything like the US.
> 
> Neither evidence or the truth are frequently ever really enough to get a conviction for anything.
> 
> Well....at least where I live


Where are you from, Married Dude?


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## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

Thundarr said:


> I recommend actually watching the video and then commenting on it. What the woman is talking about are laws that were put in place for noble reasons but they are being abused more often than they're being used. She's pointing out that the laws are used as a weapon rather than protection and this is a bad thing for everyone; especially women who the laws were intended to help. It's only 19 minutes long so it's not asking much to hear the content first and then decide what we think about it. A key point here is that men should be held accountable for their own actions and not the actions of other men. Most women would not want the men they love (fathers, brothers, sons, etc) to be punished for things other men do. That's pretty simple isn't it?


Its not only simple, its sensible.


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## Pooh Bear (Dec 28, 2014)

*So, men who object to being jailed or hauled into court and required to prove their innocence, even though they did nothing wrong, are just being crybabies because women are sexualized? That makes no sense.*

No. I am taking this from a multiple of posts I have seen on this sight. This is just one more showing how terrible the world is for men in general. But it’s not. And this video is sensationalized and not telling the full story. My point is that men are not forgotten anywhere. And yes, there are men who face injustice and that is wrong. 

My point is that there are men that feel powerless and yet try to feel more powerful by degrading women. Which you just did by calling a woman a sl*t for the wearing a particular type of clothing. 

*If we should refrain from discussing topics over which we have little power to enact change, I suggest we post a very short list of topics that WOULD be acceptable to discuss.*

Oh I can think of a million things to change in my own culture. I bet you can in yours too. And if this thread were presented as something to discuss so that we can learn more about what is happening in the world that is good. Really, I’m from the US and it is shameful how little we know about the rest of the world. And I include myself in that. I could learn more. But I don’t feel like that is how this thread was presented. I could be wrong and maybe the poster can clarify that. It seemed it was presented as a thread to show how awful the world is for men.


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## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

vellocet said:


> Here is the funny part. You say that as if you don't already do it. Perhaps not in the form of posting a link, but all you do is create controversy with your rants about us evil men.


I truly feel for you. Maybe you view women that way, so you can't imagine us women not viewing men as evil. That's really sad. 

I have never said men were evil or anything close to it. 

Pointing out that men have privileges does not mean I hate men or that they are evil. Pointing out white people have privileges does not mean I hate white people and white people are evil (I'm white), pointing out westerners have privileges does not mean I hate westerners and westerners are evil (I'm western). It means I'm aware of my privilege in the world and I'm aware that a lot of people don't know they are privileged. 

I believe their is a lot if injustice in the world some towards men, a lot more towards poor men, lot more towards women, a lot more towards poor women, a lot more towards children and even more towards minorities and even more again towards those from third world countries. 

There are plenty of good people in the world. Pointing out injustice whether it be gendered or racist or anything else is just about changing the mindset that allows us to exploit or treat others badly and to recognise our own privilege and what we might unwittingly contribute. 

This thread is about changing a law- one of the only protections to women in a third world country that have it tough. And yes false convictions are an issue- but they are a small percentage for any crime, which is why the justice system needs to change. But no we don't need to stop prosecuting men or women for awful crimes (and women are prosecuted for this crime too). There needs to be measures in place as a deterrent to stop people harming others. In this case including the women (mothers and sisters of the groom) who participate in these awful crimes. 

I can't see how that's man hate.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

*LittleDeer* said:


> Oh it's hilarious, imagine posting something controversial, and people commenting.
> 
> Should I go and post something about controversial about men in the women's section and then poke fun at the men who respond?


Aaaahhhh c'mon LD, that **** was funny.

You know it was.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

tulsy said:


> So you too didn't even watch it?
> *You had 12 comments in a 3 page thread about a video you didn't even watch?* :scratchhead:


Yes I was clear that on my computer the volume is so low that I cannot hear it. So I asked others here what the topic was. I then did some searching on the internet to find out more on the issue.

The woman in the video is not the only person in world or on the internet talking about the topic. Go figure....

The thread is about the topic of the video, not about the video specifically.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

tulsy said:


> Honestly, why are women so offended by this topic?


I can only speak for myself. I'm not offended about the topic. Why on earth would I be?



tulsy said:


> Gender should not be a concern when it comes to justice. Men can be victims too.?


I agree 100%. I have no doubt that some women and their families are misusing the law. 

That is why, once I found out what the topic is, I did some web searches for information form India on the topic.

I hope that India will look at their laws on this and make changes to the law that will strengthen the protection the laws provide for all people involved. 

One of the many articles I read last night on this topic says that India is looking at making the evidence rules required to bring charges against some guy and his family much stricter. 





tulsy said:


> I don't comment on how much I dislike "50 Shade of Grey" because I haven't watched the movie or read any of the books. For all I know, I may actually enjoy it. Regardless, how can I discuss what that movie is about if I haven't even watched it yet?


The only way you can find out what is written in 50 Shades of Grey is to read it. There is no other source that you can use to do that.

The video in the OP addresses a topic. Information about that topic is available from may sources with a google search. I can discuss the topic at hand with out viewing the video.


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## Pooh Bear (Dec 28, 2014)

*LittleDeer* said:


> I truly feel for you. Maybe you view women that way, so you can't imagine us women not viewing men as evil. That's really sad.
> 
> I have never said men were evil or anything close to it.
> 
> ...


And prison systems need to change too. I have been reading a book called The Spirit Level about economic inequality. They only look at a few countries that are the top of the gdp scale. They have found that life expectency does not increase after a country has a certain amount of wealth. So for much poorer countries life expectency will increase as income increases. But once a country hits a certain gdp life expectency does not increase based on wealth. In fact, with other factors it can decrease some. Not a lot in comparison to poorer countries. But within these various countries with a certain amount of wealth life expectency can change based on quality of life. If that makes sense. So they took the countries with the highest wealth and compared them based on economic equity. The countries with the highest economic inequality – namely the US and the UK- had more social problems than countries with less economic inequality - the Scandanavian countries, Japan, and the Netherlands. And one difference between the countries who have more economic equality verses those that don't is the prison system. In the economically unequal countries the prison system is about punishment. In the more equal countries it is about reform and helping people to function within the society after prison. The prison system in the US is bad but it sounds like India is worse.

http://www.hrw.org/sites/default/fil...s/INDIA914.pdf


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

I am a bit confused as to why this topic is presented as an injustice only against men.

The law states that it is illegal for a man and his family to request/accept a dowry. It's illegal for a woman and her family to pay a dowry. So when a dowry is involved in a marriage, everyone has committed a crime that can put them in prison for up to 5 years.

In Indian Hindu society, it is not only the husband who asks for the dowry. His mother, father and other relatives get money/assets from the dowry. The dowry is not just to get the couple started. It's also to enrich his family. So all of them have committed a crime... not just him.

And when a dowry is paid, the bride is not the one paying the dowry but she is part of the transaction. So her mother, father and she herself have also committed a crime. 

Punishment is up to 5 years in prison for every person involved in receiving and paying a dowry.


Men and women are prosecuted for the crime of being involved in a dowry.


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## Dogbert (Jan 10, 2015)

The title makes me feel like I belong to a group of people whose pictures should be on the back of milk cartons with the caption "Have you seen me?"


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Dogbert said:


> The title makes me feel like I belong to a group of people whose pictures should be on the back of milk cartons with the caption "Have you seen me?"


I can see why the title makes you feel like that. Not a good title at all.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Okay. I live in India (as an outsider, but still)

Dowry is a custom but it's not a BIG custom. Not like it was.

As far as 'thousands of dowry deaths'...do you actually think that Indians are not as appalled by that as you are? Do you think her family likes the idea that they lost a daughter AND lost a ton of money and that they would not seek redress?

They do. When you are outside the culture, some of these things look bigger than on the inside.

Their rape numbers are pretty high however. It seems to be in every paper every day. 

And yes, the women here are treated a lot worse than in the West. A simple act like helping them with a heavy bag is met with actual shame on their part at someone doing something for them.

It is, however changing. Fiscal independence is a start for women's rights and it's happening here.

AND...not to put too fine a point on it, but it's very easy for outsiders to point fingers and scream about 'big bad Indian men'. Believe it or not GASP some of the men love their wives and actually treat the with respect.

Others...do not. 

I would not want to be a woman in this place...but the feminists have about as good a read on the culture and the place as the church ladies do about their religion.

It's complicated.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

tulsy said:


> You can't even watch it?? Then how can you comment on it?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Are you serious? Listening to that extremely ill thought out beginning was enough to let me know I would be listening to something akin to wife beaters in jail discussing how unfair it is that they can't watch TV anymore!

OMG do you know anything about the plight of women in India? Scratch that, you clearly know nothing about how little value that culture places on women. 

Do you know they passed a law that any woman who died from an accident within the first 7 years of marriage would automatically be investigated as a dowry crime? Think about that for a minute. It is so wide spread that they don't even wait for reports to conclude on the cause of death. And this doesn't even touch the scores of women beaten and harassed daily because the grooms family wants more money. Now the fact that in burn wards the patients and nearly ALL women! Or that 99% of abortions there are done after the female sex of the baby is confirmed!

So you take you outcry of being a forgotten gender and go see if you can find a woman from India who wants to hear your sob story!


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## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

JCD said:


> Okay. I live in India (as an outsider, but still)
> 
> Dowry is a custom but it's not a BIG custom. Not like it was.
> 
> ...


I agree it's complicated. 

The statement about feminists, shows that you don't understand feminism. Also that there are feminists who are Indian and live in India. My best friend (Have been friends since childhood 30 years) is Indian (now living in Canada) not only that but I have studied human rights at length, so I do understand a little bit about the Indian culture. 

It shows you didn't read the comments because no one has pointed the finger and screamed "Big bad Indian men" In fact it has been pointed out by several of us, myself and Ele included that women also participate in this practice. However the end result is that many women pay the ultimate price because they are horrifically murdered and maimed.

Also it may have decreased slightly but the stats show it's still quite a widespread practice, with over 8000 women being murdered in Dowry deaths in India in 2012. Now that's just the amount murdered, many have been harmed and many more were paid without incident (meaning there was no death or maiming, however there may have been other issues). I know my friends mother was married off to her father and they had to pay a Dowry (in the late 70's) and she was married into an abusive relationship, abused, beaten and treated terribly by her husband and inlaws. Her parents felt so bad they helped her escape, despite the shame of divorce. She ended up living in Australia married to an Australian man. This where I met my friend and she lived there with her step dad (Australian) and mother (Indian). 

I grew up heavily involved in their lives and culture and was included in all their family vacations and celebrations. I became very close to her grandparents and despite marrying my friends mum off at young age and paying a Dowry- I don't view them as monsters- nor do I view the men all as monsters. Her grandfather is a wonderful kind generous man, who was always so lovely to me, even bringing me gifts when they returned home for vacations. 

That said there were a lot of her family members married to men who were abusive or didn't treat them well and there are a lot of cultural and religious issues at play. So yes it is very complicated.

I am just glad some of the laws there are changing to finally protect women from these horrific deaths.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Just a touch of perspective.

There are something like 30,000 weddings in India PER DAY (and they all seem to be celebrated with fireworks...)

This is not defending dowry deaths. They are criminals. They need to be punished VERY BADLY.

I am pointing out that out of something like the 10 MILLION weddings per year, 8,300 dowry deaths or so are a very small number of bad actors.

Something to think about before you damn a whole culture as being full of rapists and murderers (and from what I understand, Northern India is worst about this. Delhi was voted the worst city in India for women)

India is a very balkanized country. Hell, in Kerela (south east) I hear women rule the roost there.

Edited to add: you don't need to be so direct as to say 'big bad indian men' when you are indicting the whole culture. (Granted, I am too. It is generally bad for women). But I am up front by saying so and provide a bit of context to say it's not all horrible. Certainly I can think of a hell of a lot of other countries which are FAR WORSE.


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## Wolfman1968 (Jun 9, 2011)

Fozzy said:


> The main thrust of the video is that some women in India are abusing laws designed to protect them by filing legal actions against their husbands' entire families due to having paid them a dowry. As a result, the entire family is arrested. Convictions are low, although I'm not sure if that's due to crappy prosecution or if the numbers are getting skewed by the police letting Grandma walk eventually.


Or, another explanation, which I think is part of the speaker's point, is that convictions are low because the dowry charges are easily made and are too often false. She showed a case where a 2 year old and a 4 year old were charged (being part of the man's family)! Really, how can a 2-year old or 4-year old do anything?

She indicates that these cases take years to resolve, and people are dragged through the court system unfairly, destroying them. The accused either pay up to settle or have their lives destroyed. I think that was the point of the suicide video she showed (a guy whose life was allegedly destroyed by a false dowry claim taped what was essentially a video "suicide note" and killed himself). 

The speaker gave two quotes from the Indian Supreme Court who said these laws were being abused by false accusations. Apparently even the Indian Supreme Court says that the "cry wolf" is being falsely used far too much. 

If a large percent of the dowry charges are false, then you would expect that to increase the percent of acquittals.


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## Wolfman1968 (Jun 9, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> I am a bit confused as to why this topic is presented as an injustice only against men.
> 
> The law states that it is illegal for a man and his family to request/accept a dowry. It's illegal for a woman and her family to pay a dowry. So when a dowry is involved in a marriage, everyone has committed a crime that can put them in prison for up to 5 years.
> 
> ...


From what I understand of the speaker, it is because it is being abused by the wife against the husband. The speaker specifically mentions Section 498A, which empowered the wives to make false claims. I turned to Wikipedia for an explanation of this, since I am unfamiliar with it:

<<Section 498A[edit]
Section 498A of IPC[9] was inserted in 1983. It protects the wife from harassment by the husband or the husband's family in cases where an illegal dowry is sought. The section reads:

498A. Husband or relative of husband of a woman subjecting her to cruelty.
Whoever, being the husband or the relative of the husband of a woman, subjects such woman to cruelty shall be punished with imprisonment for a term which may extend to three years and shall also be liable to fine.

Explanation-For the purpose of this section, "cruelty" means-

(a) Any willful conduct which is of such a nature as is likely to drive the woman to commit suicide or to cause grave injury or danger to life, limb or health whether mental or physical of the woman; or

(b) *Harassment of the woman where such harassment is with a view to coercing her or any person related to her to meet any unlawful demand for any property or valuable security or is on account of failure by her or any person related to her meet such demand.*[10]

In 2005, the *Supreme Court of India* upheld the constitutionality of section 498A in response to a public interest petition asserting that *the law could easily be abused with frivolous complaints*.[11][12] The court cautioned, however, that the law was not a licence to settle scores: *"Merely because the provisions are constitutional that does not give a licence to unscrupulous persons to wreck personal vendetta or unleash harassment."*[13] *In 2010, Indian Parliament set up a committee (headed by Shri. Bhagat Singh Koshyari) to investigate misuse of this law, as recommended by the Supreme Court of India in their judgement for Preeti Gupta & Another vs State of Jharkhand & Another.*[14]

A two-judge bench of the Supreme Court of India reviewed enforcement of Section 498A in 2014. *The court found that the law was commonly misused and often resulted in unwarranted arrests.* The court directed all state governments in India to instruct police officers in the proper enforcement of Section 498A. In particular, officers should not make arrests automatically, but only when an arrest is actually necessary, as specified in Section 41A of the Code of Criminal Procedure.[15] But the delay in sending these guidelines to all police stations is hampering proper enforcement of the guidelines issued by Supreme Court of India.[16]>>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dowry_law_in_India

The speaker specifically mentioned that laws in India are not gender-neutral as they are in other countries. She specifically mentioned that there are laws against Domestic Violence towards women, but there is specifically no protection for men. She cited men who had gone to the police but were turned away because DV laws do not protect men in India.

So, yes, there is a reason this injustice is against only men.


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## Wolfman1968 (Jun 9, 2011)

*LittleDeer* said:


> This thread is about changing a law- one of the only protections to women in a third world country that have it tough. And yes false convictions are an issue- but they are a small percentage for any crime, which is why the justice system needs to change. But no we don't need to stop prosecuting men or women for awful crimes (and women are prosecuted for this crime too). There needs to be measures in place as a deterrent to stop people harming others. In this case including the women (mothers and sisters of the groom) who participate in these awful crimes.
> 
> I can't see how that's man hate.


In this thread (and others, which i have quoted in the past) you consistently minimize and dismiss injustices against men. 

I am a fierce civil libertarian, and strongly believe in the Blackstone principle ("that 10 guilty persons escape rather than 1 innocent suffer"), although, as others do, think that in practice it should be more like 100 or 1000 to 1. Indeed, I think an innocent should NEVER suffer. This is a cornerstone to British (and, through common law, US) jurisprudence.

We give governments authority over us, but only with a stipulation that the authority given is used absolutely justly and scrupulously. Criminals are NOT given authority over us; they are operating outside any social compact. 

That is why your arguments of comparative injury are always straw man arguments. Yes, it is terrible that 8000 dowry deaths occur, but they are performed by CRIMINALS. We are not approving their actions. But false prosecutions/convictions are, in accordance with the Blackstone principle, FAR WORSE than acts of criminals because these acts on the innocents are committed by a government empowered only under the condition of using that power of punishment only with the most scrupulous protection of the innocent. That's why, for example, even though no one debates that the vast majority of violent deaths of young black males is committed by other young black males (due to gangs/crime, etc.), it is the abuse of government power by police against them that raises such fierce outcries of injustice. That's why, even though there is a terrible problem with rape by criminals in the US, there was such an outcry over the prosecution of innocent Lacrosse players by a bad district attorney at Duke University. No matter how bad the crime situation is, there is NEVER an excuse for government/police abuse.

Except, you seem to easily dismiss the injustices against the innocent men being ground under the wheels of government power. In thread after thread, you easily dismiss the legitimate complaints of these innocent victims (men, in these threads) by bringing up other wrongs in society which, whether or not they are true, do NOT make the injustices any less real. I have repeatedly used the analogy of a Latino with legitimate grievances of discrimination being shouted down by an African-American who says his discrimination is worse. Even if true, it doesn't make the Latino's complaint any less legitimate. 

And, to the point of the OP, the speaker quotes such statistics as the Delhi Commission on Women revealing that 53% of rape allegations there were false. (To avoid branching into a thread jack, it appears that this is a unique situation to India and, I am sure that the vast majority of rapes in India are unreported anyway, so those brought to the authorities are an unrepresentative sample). The speaker also quoted a report by a newspaper, The Hindu, that apparently tracked the rape cases in a city over 6 months; the speaker quoted that about 40% were rape charges brought by the girls' family after a couple elopes and about 25% were consensual sex with the expectation of marriage, and later became rape as part of a "breach of promise" type of situation (by the way, I found these statistics/reports in Wikipedia as well, although Wikipedia is, after all, Wikipedia, so take it for what it is). It is my understanding that the speaker's point is that Indian law allows much more abuse BY THE GOVERNMENT than other countries. Also, that the laws are not gender neutral (apparently, there is no statutory protection of male victims of domestic violence, only women). 

So, it doesn't matter what you call it. You have again shown a callous disregard of the protection of civil liberties of men by easily dismissing the "small percentage" (as you put it above, although maybe not so small in India) of innocent men...Just as you did the minimum 3-4% of male victims of Paternity Fraud in the thread about Whether The Biological Paternity Matters, and just as you did in the male victims of DV in the thread with the Jezebel posters crowing about physically abusing their boyfriends "because he deserved it".


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## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

Wolfman to first address The false allegation claims.
This article about rape, the misconduct of the police and the widespread ignorance and dismissal of rape victims shows that the police may claim a high rate of false claims however it's obviously not the case. 
http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/5/30/india-rape-police.html

I think this piece is interesting and it's why most claims are dismissed as false when they are not. 


> . How should a country respond when its police force is found wanting? That is the question Indian’s face after a sting-operation carried out by a leading magazine last week exposed widespread rape-denial among a senior stratum of India’s police force. If the media reaction is an index, all that this revelation could muster was a nationwide raised eyebrow. In the embattled history for social justice in India the police dismissal of rape victims and the failure to respond marks one of the lowest points.
> 
> The sting carried out by Tehelka involved secretly filmed interviews with 30 Station Holders (SHOs), the policemen in charge of investigating rape claims, in Delhi and the National Capital Region (NCR). Delhi happens to be India’s “rape capital” and 17 of the 30 SHO’s in this area repeatedly insisted that the majority of rape claims they received were false. The approximations varied. “It’s consensual most of the time” was the insistence of one policeman. When asked to put a figure on the number of genuine rape complaints, another suggested 10%. Manoj Rawat, a sub-inspector in a nearby precinct, was less generous: “My personal view is that there are one or two per cent rape cases in [the] NCR”.
> 
> ...


http://blogs.independent.co.uk/2012/04/25/india’s-continued-demonization-of-rape-victims/

Another article about the attitudes of rape in India
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/08/indian-minister-rape-remark-anger-violence-women


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

I can't even finish reading that LD. It's disgusting.

While crime is wrong, systemic subjugation of women is wrongER. While no one should have to endure the injustice of being falsely accused of anything, systemic propensity to blame the female victim is wrongER. While I feel badly for the men in the video originally posted, I feel gutted by the plight of ALL women in India.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Dogbert said:


> The title makes me feel like I belong to a group of people whose pictures should be on the back of milk cartons with the caption "Have you seen me?"
> 
> 
> EleGirl said:
> ...


The opening comment linked a video named "The Forgotten Gender" and the video has a message that matches it's name. If your audio is cooperating now I think you'd find the video much less offensive than you think. The premise I got from the video is that women and children have proponent speaking out against injustice but men do not so they are the forgotten gender. Now does Deepika Bhardwaj have motive to take away protections of women? I don't know but it didn't sound like she wants women to be unprotected but more like she wants everyone including men to be protected.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> I can't even finish reading that LD. It's disgusting.
> 
> While crime is wrong, systemic subjugation of women is wrongER. While no one should have to endure the injustice of being falsely accused of anything, systemic propensity to blame the female victim is wrongER. While I feel badly for the men in the video originally posted, I feel gutted by the plight of ALL women in India.


At least you acknowleged both injustices. But we should all know that women who truly need protection are harmed when these laws are abused. The protections lose their teeth and it's a lose lose. In other words if too many cry wolf then when the real wolf shows up, there's not as much support as there should be.


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## Pooh Bear (Dec 28, 2014)

*Something to think about before you damn a whole culture as being full of rapists and murderers (and from what I understand, Northern India is worst about this. Delhi was voted the worst city in India for women)*

What are you talking about? Nobody has said that. You’re reading something into this conversation that isn’t there. And what about the poster who posted this and knows nothing about it. It’s complicated but he took a sensationalized video and decided to get this topic started. Anything to say to him?

Frankly, there is enough work to be done in my own country. And I know there are feminists working in India on their issues. And I have read that women’s relationship in India is much more complicated than the US where I am from. They have a really rich history and Hinduism contains stories that support women’s rights. I want to go to India for the religion. Every religion in the world is in India. Buddhism started there, Hinduism is there. Kali. I love her.

*India is a very balkanized country. Hell, in Kerela (south east) I hear women rule the roost there.
*

Yes. I believe there are a few small matriarchal societies in India. And so many languages. My husband works with many people from India and they all have different languages that they speak. Of course, they speak English also.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Thundarr said:


> The opening comment linked a video named "The Forgotten Gender" and the video has a message that matches it's name. If your audio is cooperating now I think you'd find the video much less offensive than you think. The premise I got from the video is that women and children have proponent speaking out against injustice but men do not so they are the forgotten gender. Now does Deepika Bhardwaj have motive to take away protections of women? I don't know but it didn't sound like she wants women to be unprotected but more like she wants everyone including men to be protected.


I have not said that I find the video offensive. I said that I cannot hear the audio for some reason. 

What I did say is that I can understand why some people are having a reaction to the title of the video (and hence the title of this thread).

Please note that the Indian Supreme court has made changes to the manner in which the law is being implemented such as requiring much stronger evidence. Apparently the men do have a voice as it's being heard and changes are being made.

the reason the law only mentions women and their families as victims of crimes related to dowry is that it is the women and their families against who these crimes are perpetrated.

Originally the dowry was a woman's inheritance give to her at the time of her marriage. It was her sole property. She was usually given land, jewelry and other assets.

But once the Brits took over in India, things changed. The dowry now because a way for a man and his family to gain wealth for themselves. It was no longer her inheritance and no longer the sole property of the wife. 

Men and their families started demanding wealth for their own use from their wife's families. In many cases the men and their families continue to extort the woman's family as long as her parents are alive with constant demands for more and more assets.

Articles that I read from Indian sources say that 90% of Hindu marriages in India still are done with a dowry. A man will spend about 1/5th of his entire life's earnings to pay a dowry so that some man will marry his daughter. 

This is the major reason that the vast majority of aborted fetuses in India are female. Families simply cannot afford more than one female child. So it is not 'just' a few thousand woman a year being killed over her family not giving into dowry extortion. It's millions of females never being born because their families cannot afford them.

Right now the ratio of males to females in India is about 940 females to every 1000 males. There are about 30 million more males than females in the 15 to 35 age range alone.

For children ages 0 to 6 years, there are 914 females for every 1000 males.

In urban areas of India, it is even more skewed with 904 females to every 1000 men.

And of course not all men (and their families) in India extort dowry from their wives and their families. Of course there are a lot of good men in India. But apparently the number who do extort dowry is big enough that it's a problem.

As the ratio of men to women in India becomes more and more off balance, I think that the dowry as it's done now will go away. The competition for a wife is going to go way up. Picking a wife by whose family a man can extort the most from will no longer work.

I like the original way the dowry.. a woman's inheritance. This exists in a lot of cultures.. Jewish, Christian, Islamic.. .makes sense to me. It would also stop all of the nonsense.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> I have not said that I find the video offensive. I said that I cannot hear the audio for some reason.
> 
> What I did say is that I can understand why some people are having a reaction to the title of the video (and hence the title of this thread).
> 
> Please note that the Indian Supreme court has made changes to the manner in which the law is being implemented such as requiring much stronger evidence. Apparently the men do have a voice as it's being heard and changes are being made.


Fair enough. The thread topic is gender bias by nature. You make a good point about the supreme court as well. Rulings and words from the supreme court are indeed a voice which suggests that no one is forgotten but rather that the courts recognize that laws intended to help victims are being used by predators as well.



EleGirl said:


> Articles that I read from Indian sources say that 90% of Hindu marriages in India still are done with a dowry. A man will spend about 1/5th of his entire life's earnings to pay a dowry so that some man will marry his daughter.


Imagine the message that sends to girls growing up that their parents are expected to pay someone to marry them. It's hard to understand how this way of thinking has survived so long.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Thundarr said:


> Fair enough. The thread topic is gender bias by nature. You make a good point about the supreme court as well. Rulings and words from the supreme court are indeed a voice which suggests that no one is forgotten but rather that the courts recognize that laws intended to help victims are being used by predators as well.
> 
> 
> 
> Imagine the message that sends to girls growing up that their parents are expected to pay someone to marry them. It's hard to understand how this way of thinking has survived so long.


I've been thinking about why that happened. What I've read is that it's the British influence.

In parts of Europe, in the old days, the law was that a man assumed all of his wife's wealth and he could use it as he pleased. If he divorce her, he kept it. This was completely different that in a lot of the world.

For example in all 3 middle eastern religious and originally in Hinduism, a woman received her inheritance upon marriage and it was hers sole property. 

When Christianity came to Europe, people became Christian but the men were not about to give up on old lays that transferred all a woman's wealth to her husband.

There were only a few things that a woman was allowed to keep as personal property. One of those is jewelry. This is why in Europe, the giving of diamond rings at marriage become important. When a woman married, her family would give her jewelry made of gold and gems. Wives, who were not allowed to own property or have their own money, could have all the jewelry they could accumulate. So that became were women's wealth was concentrated... hence .. "diamonds are a girl's best friend." Real estate and cash assets were a man's best friends.

The Brits took over in India in about 1858. So historically, dowry as a payoff to the husband and his family is a pretty new thing. 

Many people in India, to include men and women, are working to end the dowry as an enrichment to the husband and his family. But there is a lot of push back. A lot of people profit from extorting money this way.

Those who want to end dowry as extortion are actually the people who want things to return to the way they were for thousands of years in Hindu history.... where wives get an inheritance upon marriage and can hold their own wealth and thus have a higher social standing.

when this happens, the ratio between males and females in the population will equalize again.


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## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> I can't even finish reading that LD. It's disgusting.
> 
> While crime is wrong, systemic subjugation of women is wrongER. While no one should have to endure the injustice of being falsely accused of anything, systemic propensity to blame the female victim is wrongER. While I feel badly for the men in the video originally posted, I feel gutted by the plight of ALL women in India.


So, collateral damage, and the rights of the few should be disregarded?


Turning blind eye has never been a way out. Why does it have to follow that NOT treating some men in a just fashion is going to cause further harm to women?


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## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

I lived in India for 4 years, and as a Westerner I was a prize for weddings... meaning being white meant a lot to the parents of the bride or groom if I showed up. It gave them more importance within their community.

All the Indian weddings I knew had dowries, typically gold and diamonds, but also cars or property. That is just how it is. But the dowry is evolving and is becoming like it is in the West. If the girl is educated and earns a good living, her parents do not have to pay much, just the wedding reception (like in the US).

The reason I am saying it is becoming more like the West is because most marriages happen within the same class of education. The West has become more equal between the sexes, but financial considerations still may be very important. It has been proven that a woman is more beautiful when she is rich and a man sexier when he has an expensive car. Data do not lie.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Duguesclin said:


> I lived in India for 4 years, and as a Westerner I was a prize for weddings... meaning being white meant a lot to the parents of the bride or groom if I showed up. It gave them more importance within their community.
> 
> All the Indian weddings I knew had dowries, typically gold and diamonds, but also cars or property. That is just how it is. But the dowry is evolving and is becoming like it is in the West. If the girl is educated and earns a good living, her parents do not have to pay much, just the wedding reception (like in the US).
> 
> The reason I am saying it is becoming more like the West is because most marriages happen within the same class of education. The West has become more equal between the sexes, but financial considerations still may be very important. It has been proven that a woman is more beautiful when she is rich and a man sexier when he has an expensive car. Data do not lie.


I'm dissapointed that JLD didn't ask for your input sooner on this D. A very good friend of mine is from India and I know his parents were not burdened financially with his two sister's marraiges but they are all educated and they have degrees. At least their burden was like ours here in the U.S. (wedding costs). Perhaps a few decades back his sisters would not have had the opportunity to be educated? I considered asking him some personal questions for this very thread but somehow I couldn't find the right way to ask.


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## BronzeTorpedo (Dec 17, 2014)

Pooh Bear said:


> I am taking this from a multiple of posts I have seen on this sight. This is just one more showing how terrible the world is for men in general. But it’s not.


So, you're dismissing individual injustices against men because, overall, you believe they have it pretty good. But that standard can apply to women as well. Western women, by global standards, have it great. Should we dismiss specific injustices against women because of this?



> My point is that there are men that feel powerless and yet try to feel more powerful by degrading women. Which you just did by calling a woman a sl*t for the wearing a particular type of clothing.


I didn't name slvt walks. Feminist activists Heather Jarvis and Sonya Barnettare the ones who degraded women by founding, and naming, the first slvt walk. Other feminists picked up on the degradation and the phenomenon spread across the globe. I assure you I had nothing to do with it.



> Oh I can think of a million things to change in my own culture. I bet you can in yours too. And if this thread were presented as something to discuss so that we can learn more about what is happening in the world that is good.


So, a traditionally patriarchal society like India over-correcting marriage customs by taking away due process for men and their families isn't something that can be educational for the rest of the world? I disagree.


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## BronzeTorpedo (Dec 17, 2014)

Pooh Bear said:


> And prison systems need to change too. I have been reading a book called The Spirit Level about economic inequality. ... The countries with the highest economic inequality – namely the US and the UK- had more social problems than countries with less economic inequality - the Scandanavian countries, Japan, and the Netherlands. And one difference between the countries who have more economic equality verses those that don't is the prison system.


It's difficult to identify causality in sociological issues. For example, we could look at race in the countries you identified. Japan, the Netherlands, and Scandinavia are racially homogenous. The USA and UK are more racially heterogeneous. Does this correlation between racial heterogeneity and crime equal cause and effect? Perhaps. But not necessarily.


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