# After the lies - what's next?



## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

I have been doing work on myself - exercise, counselling, more interaction with kids, presenting a 180 where possible without being obvious, no abuse, blame, heavy questioning etc. as stated I agreed to "play it her way" - which from what I can see so far loosly translates to - "Let's carry on as normal, but also as normal - no sex, no anything". 

My partner is not being rude or dismissive. Kisses goodbye, kisses goodnight, spooning in bed (limited when my manhood jumps to attention), snuggling etc. But that's it. Yes, I know it has been only 2 weeks but I need sex badly. 

I explained to her just the other night, in our first real civil heart to heart since the big discovery, that this is important to me - all the usual valid reasons, but that I would not be putting the squeeze on her.

I have honoured that promise - though it's obvious what I want just from the body language in bed as mentioned. Anyway nothing is happening. And that is playing on my mind despite my resolve to not become this betrayed bloke who is moping around. Which I have successfully avoided - considering we are all at home due to between term school holidays.

Even though it's early days - yes, reconcilliation apparently - I am not getting any type of "I'm interested" vibe. I suppose the answer is obvious to you but I'm working on the basis that we are creating a new loving intimate relationship from the ashes of the old.

My counsellor agreed wholeheartedly with my suggestion that we, my partner and I, go on a date and my partner likes it. We'll do this ASAP but there is something else.

Despite the all her positive words about us reconciling etc. etc. I don't see any action. Am I expecting something way to soon? And as I have said before I have a deep suspicion that she will never be able to rekindle something for me in the way I want. I'm the one who wants her who has agreed to go along with her way for the sake of harmony and our future but I feel like she doesn't need me.

Sure her betrayal and the subterfuge is a clear indication of what she thinks / thought of me and our relationship but I have got to believe what she is saying now - I choose to believe her. And I have got to work towards that end.

The thing is though - I remember full well that terrible empty feeling I had 30 years when I broke with a beautiful woman I was engaged to. It was not an infidelity situation. The strange thing was (and this is the feelling I had after our honest and tender talk the other night) my ex-fiancee and I had this last blast day of closeness and cuddling and love and then we completely finished days later.

My cousin at the time said - "the flame burns brightest just before it is extinguished" - . An oxy-acetelene welding analogy I think but so true. Even at this early stage I feel this is again what is in front of me however long we journey down this road of reconcilliation.


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## KanDo (Jun 15, 2011)

Horizon,

I am sorry you are here. But, your partner does not respect you and has experienced no consequences. You are acting like a doormat. Good luck with that plan. In my long tenure on this board I have not seen a successful reconciliation under the terms you have described. (and spooning at night is not a 180)


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

I agree with Kando

She has no respect for what you want and certainly no remorse for what she did

This is not good
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

KanDo said:


> Horizon,
> 
> I am sorry you are here. But, your partner does not respect you and has experienced no consequences. You are acting like a doormat. Good luck with that plan. In my long tenure on this board I have not seen a successful reconciliation under the terms you have described. (and spooning at night is not a 180)


OK, what would you do? I have had much advice/support on TAM and I appreciate it but some of the hardline stuff is beyond me. And trust me, she is one of these people who will not be told. She has made some attempts to address my requests - access to FB, STD test etc. but not much more than that. 

Should I dump my "keep the peace" approach? is that it? For what. I'm having to work on me which I ignored for years. I'm taking baby steps. This woman despite what she did to me is not one who will be screwed to the floorboards (at least not with me).

Get my point? She is like her father, they have this tough as teak armour plating and don't like to be told what to do? She is saying all the right things which none of you out there are buying but I can't do anything else - other than walk. And at this early stage any decision/action like that seems half baked and just attention seeking vindictiveness/revenge.


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

Toffer said:


> I agree with Kando
> 
> She has no respect for what you want and certainly no remorse for what she did
> 
> ...


The cat gets more affection than me. I have completely lost sight of what I want or should reasonably expect from her. Doormat? Beware the damaged doormat!


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## Cabsy (Mar 25, 2013)

Yeah, I'd say the other poster is right. It "worked" for me and I'm sure it worked for others here, to make cheaters face what they did and deal with it. If things are swept under the rug, at some point that rug is going to be moved and those things you swept under there will be released again. Talking over the issues together, acting to fix problems, etc is like sweeping up those things from under the rug and placing them in the trash bin where they belong. Until you handle the real issues, she shows real remorse and a strong understanding for what she did wrong, along with a full commitment to address those issues, nothing will be solved in the long term.

I had a couple of false R attempts due to my WS still holding a place in her heart for her affair partner. I have little doubt that if I'd rolled over or given in to the way she wanted to handle things, we'd be split and who knows where she'd be right now. Or if I'd given up and rug swept but stayed with her, she'd be even deeper in a PA with her married OM, or at the least she'd be waiting for the right time to reconnect with him. Point is, I had to snap her back into reality because she was incapable of doing it herself. I exposed what she did, within reason, and made it clear she was losing me forever as a partner and a friend due to her selfish and disgusting behavior. Once reality truly hit her, the difference was like night and day.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## HarryDoyle (Jan 19, 2013)

> I agreed to "play it her way" - which from what I can see so far loosly translates to - "Let's carry on as normal, but also as normal - no sex, no anything".


Really? Play it her way? Her way got you where you're at. And normal? WTH is normal??? I haven't experienced normal since d day, good or bad. My WW has just about everything right as far as R goes, but on d day I told her if she really wanted to stay with me, we would have to do things my way. I would change too, but if she couldn't handle dealing with me and the issues she caused, she could leave at any time. Just saying.


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

Cabsy said:


> Yeah, I'd say the other poster is right. It "worked" for me and I'm sure it worked for others here, to make cheaters face what they did and deal with it. If things are swept under the rug, at some point that rug is going to be moved and those things you swept under there will be released again. Talking over the issues together, acting to fix problems, etc is like sweeping up those things from under the rug and placing them in the trash bin where they belong. Until you handle the real issues, she shows real remorse and a strong understanding for what she did wrong, along with a full commitment to address those issues, nothing will be solved in the long term.
> 
> I had a couple of false R attempts due to my WS still holding a place in her heart for her affair partner. I have little doubt that if I'd rolled over or given in to the way she wanted to handle things, we'd be split and who knows where she'd be right now. Or if I'd given up and rug swept but stayed with her, she'd be even deeper in a PA with her married OM, or at the least she'd be waiting for the right time to reconnect with him. Point is, I had to snap her back into reality because she was incapable of doing it herself. I exposed what she did, within reason, and made it clear she was losing me forever as a partner and a friend due to her selfish and disgusting behavior. Once reality truly hit her, the difference was like night and day.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Maybe my partner will never be able to express "real remorse" or "a strong understanding of what she did wrong". Her commitment to address these issues is the "playing it here way" space I am in now. Come on now, what more can she do? I'm trying to tell you that this woman is stuborn and it is not in her nature to be in a low status place.

I'm just telling you as it is. There is only so much I can insist on and keep repeating. I would love deep heartfelt and ongoing remorse - where she reminds me each day how terrible her actions were, how remorseful she is about the pain she has caused me and the risk she put to our family dynamic etc etc etc. But she can't & wont do it. She has apologised a few times and that's all folks it seems. She can't bare it when I have gone back over her actions in graphic detail.

She is trying to get distance from it, protecting herself and apparently all in good time things will develop between us. But how long? How long do I look for those signs that she is actively going to do something to demonstrate her committment? 

My brother was very blunt today he said - "she has f**ked your relationship". He went on to say - "You better get your head around the idea that maybe it's finished, no matter what course of action you take". And that's it. After 2 weeks I'm here and I am treading water waiting for a sign.

Frankly I think a comment from her over the weekend after our final blow up was telling. She said - "I am so exhausted, I really need this next few weeks to re-charge before I go back to work".


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## Jasel (Jan 8, 2013)

I'm not going to get into specifics because frankly I think you've been told more than once how you need to handle this in your other thread.

Like others have said you exhibit some serious doormat behavior towards your wife and you come off as pretty co-dependant as well. Your wife clearly has no respect for you and you basically respond like a loyal yet abused dog anxiously waiting for a pat on the head.

The BS who come here (especially the men) who do get their WS to check back into the marriaage do so by basically doing everything you seem reluctant to do or unable to go through with.

Why should she express "real remorse" when you seem content to pout, rugsweep, and play by HER rules after she screwed YOU over?

You're "treading water waiting for a sign" when you should be the one in the boat with HER treading water begging you to throw her a life jacket.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Its been my experience the bigger the squeeze I put on my old lady the bigger the results. 

Man I put the squeeze on he right after Dday and she didn't even flinch....I mean she really meant it when she said "I will do any thing to make this work"...

After all if Om can have it his way why can't I..... 


I had figured Mrs. the guy would have folded like a chair after some of the crap I gave her after dday....but nope... she took it like a champ and the huge degree of submission she showed me helped alot!

I was hopping she would have ran off screaming into the night, but she put her money were her mouth was and showed me through her actions that she meant everything she said on Dday.

I mean no matter how hard I tried, crapping her phone when ever I wanted, having her followed, yelling at her, and even spanking her....she laughed it off, smiled and said "if beating me won't get rid of me then this sh1t won't chase me off.....deep down you are a good man and I am a good women... I can fight... we hurt each other....it time to heal and right now your anger is letting go of weakness". Mrs. the guy has said this more then once!!!!!!

Anyway, my point is squeeze her, see whats she is made of and then you can guage the probability of this happening again or is she really in it for the long haul.


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

OP. Do you miss your self-respect?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MovingAhead (Dec 27, 2012)

Horizon,

Your brother was right. She f--d up your relationship and you may or may not get through this with her.

The other posters are right. She does NOT respect you. You should be taking charge! If she is too stubborn to do what is right, then you need to say goodbye. She isn't worth it if that is the case.

She is waiting to see if you are going to be a man here. You are not. You are letting her control the situation. You are doomed if you keep down this path. You are being submissive to a person who cheated on you and screwed you and your kids over.

She is looking for a man who would take care of her for the rest of her life. Is that going to be you. Are you going to take care of your family or is some other guy. Take charge, step up and figure out your path. Tell her you are done with her way and you lead. 

If you ever danced with a woman, you would know the man is supposed to lead.


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## BobSimmons (Mar 2, 2013)

Horizon said:


> Maybe my partner will never be able to express "real remorse" or "a strong understanding of what she did wrong". Her commitment to address these issues is the "playing it here way" space I am in now. Come on now, what more can she do? I'm trying to tell you that this woman is stuborn and it is not in her nature to be in a low status place.
> 
> I'm just telling you as it is. There is only so much I can insist on and keep repeating. I would love deep heartfelt and ongoing remorse - where she reminds me each day how terrible her actions were, how remorseful she is about the pain she has caused me and the risk she put to our family dynamic etc etc etc. But she can't & wont do it. She has apologised a few times and that's all folks it seems. She can't bare it when I have gone back over her actions in graphic detail.
> 
> ...


You throw your hands up in the air and make excuses that your wife is this and that..so you either accept it, rug sweep the heck out of it and move on.
or bloody do something about it

She's stubborn? So what? She detached enough to do what she did to you, make no bones about it, if push comes to shove she can go back to OM or leave you. You're the one hanging on by a string doing things on her terms because what? She's alpha? You're beta?

So you except the status quo as is. She won't go past a certain point, the exact point YOU need her to go beyond to show she's owning up to what she did and that it won't happen again.

Remorse is remorse. There is no half remorse just like there is no half cheating. She dove into that fully and committed knowing what it would do to you...and yet when you give her a chance it's not on your terms but hers.

You don't have a take a hardline approach (whatever that is) You were disrespected and are continuing to be disrespected. When do you say no, I won't put up with this. When do you say no, if this is going to work we need to be equals, partners and do this together.

She is stubborn with YOU. It's not her nature because guess what if another dominant male tells her whats what from the beginning and doesn't accept any bull no matter what she does, she would accept that and know that if she crossed whatever boundaries she knows he had set, what the immediate consequences would be.

So your answer..oh I can't do this, this is beyond me, she's this, I have to wait.. all failure words, no action words.


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

BobSimmons said:


> You throw your hands up in the air and make excuses that your wife is this and that..so you either accept it, rug sweep the heck out of it and move on.
> or bloody do something about it
> 
> She's stubborn? So what? She detached enough to do what she did to you, make no bones about it, if push comes to shove she can go back to OM or leave you. You're the one hanging on by a string doing things on her terms because what? She's alpha? You're beta?
> ...


And you so right Bob, I'm as weak as piss. I don't know what more to do. You can't manufacture remorse.

She expressed some very strong remorse on two occasions allowed access to FB, chnaged some of FB and has had the STD tests. But she is not doing what I really want her to do and that is to give me aclear idea of how she means to make this good again.

When I went down this path during our last heated exchange she fired back with the old chestnut about me having turned away and tuned out (we both did). I'm to blame as much as her!

I know what I want to hear from her - clear ideas about how we can reconcile, counselling, a date, reading literature on infidelity ' reconcilliation whatever but she's kicking back right now having her 4th drink (not even 7pm!!) and watching the news.


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## MrK (Sep 2, 2010)

Pick up your keys and your coat and say "By honey. I'm going out to get laid. Be back before breakfast.

Then leave for the night.

The REAL lesson here will be when she doesn't give a crap.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

old timer said:


> OP. Do you miss your self-respect?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Do not mistake tough love for kicking someone when they are down.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

MM, my stbxw is so much like OP describes his W it's uncanny. 

BTDT

I see myself in his posts. Not until I left and began taking control of my own life did I realize how much of a doormat I had allowed myself to become. 

Not trying to kick him while he's down - more like shaking him hard to wake him up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rckbttm (Mar 24, 2013)

Horizon said:


> And you so right Bob, I'm as weak as piss. I don't know what more to do. You can't manufacture remorse.
> 
> She expressed some very strong remorse on two occasions allowed access to FB, chnaged some of FB and has had the STD tests. But she is not doing what I really want her to do and that is to give me aclear idea of how she means to make this good again.
> 
> ...


Horizon, you have to start listening to the people here!Get your dignity and self respect back and get control! I know its tough and you so want it to work but this woman does not give a sh*t about you anymore and you have to realize that. My WW was doing all the same things you are describing as she too is very stubborn and rarely admits fault for anything let alone the A. Do not get sucked in internalizing the blame for the A as if you were also at fault here! She is playing you and still has no real remorse for what she has done and this is where you need to be careful. I made this very mistake only to find out the A was driven more underground and just grew in intensity! I fear this may be the path you are on if you dont man up brother! Is she showing transparency with all things, phone, emails, trips to the store, facebook, etc? If she is TRULY REMORSEFUL then these things will be gladly offered up...if not then you know the answer! tell her to pack her sh*t and get the "f" out as you will not be played any longer! Better yet when shes gone pack her stuff, change the locks and tell her to get a court order if she wants back in!! I fear you have a cakeeater on your hands as did I and the pain can and will get much worse if you dont focus! Sorry you have to live this my friend, none of us ever wanted to be here trust me.


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

old timer said:


> MM, my stbxw is so much like OP describes his W it's uncanny.
> 
> BTDT
> 
> ...


I'm awake alright, what is the abbreviation BTDT?


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

Horizon said:


> I'm awake alright, what is the abbreviation BTDT?


Been there, done that


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## carmen ohio (Sep 24, 2012)

Horizon,

Read "Married Man Sex Life Primer" by Athol Kay (who also happens to be from your side of the world). It will explain everything you need to know and even provide you with a blue print for what to do.

But understand that it will take a bit of time to make things happen and it may not happen with your WW (given how screwed up she is). What is guaranteed -- if you follow his advice -- is that in a reasonably short period of time you will regain your self-respect. Once that happens, it's up to you what you want to make out of your marriage and, more importantly, your life. What you will learn is that, by focusing on yourself (your health, your fitness, your financial well-being, your interests, etc.) and doing what is generally good for your, instead of trying to figure out how to win back your WW, you will actually have the best chance winning her back (or of finding someone else who will be a much better partner).

Or you can just keep asking the same questions and getting the same advice on TAM and never make any progress. Your choice.


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

*^^^^^this^^^^*

.

MMSLP is what got me back on track

.


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

old timer said:


> *^^^^^this^^^^*
> 
> .
> 
> ...


OK, you got me with that as well ???


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

carmen ohio said:


> Horizon,
> 
> Read "Married Man Sex Life Primer" by Athol Kay (who also happens to be from your side of the world). It will explain everything you need to know and even provide you with a blue print for what to do.
> 
> ...


Now she has really warmed to me after we had a post argument honest talk late last night. It was pretty tough and she had to cop it from me as much as she gave it. There was a lot of undealt stuff - resentments built up on both sides. She's the same this evening, very affectionate and tender - telling me I'm the one she has always loved, wants to be with for the rest of our lives. Has again expressed regret about the A. 

Then for a little mid afternoon kicker she was an hour and a half late from an appointment with her hair salon - 4 hours getting her hair done. I found this out later from my daughter. I went straight to her when she came back and asked her what had happened but she was completely relaxed and explained the delays. I asked her outright if she had hooked up with anyone but she said - no way! Naturally I'm suspicious.

Question: Are there any messenging tools / Apps attached to FB that she can get into without me knowing? I have access to her FB but can't really see anything out of the ordinary.


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

First...she can get apps, chats, texts and whatever else without you ever knowing about it. Hell, she can get a burner phone and you'd never know anything about it. Those options are available to her.

But that's not the point. You're not even close enough, in my opinion, to be worrying about her still doing sh-t behind your back. You need to go back to square one. The part where you found out she was having sex with someone else behind your back. The part where you went.....Whoooa! Wait a second here!

Yeah, that part. The part where she had a chance to actually cry and show you emotionally how f'd up she had been and how badly it hurt you. The part where she immediately gives you access to every account she's got and you truly believe her.

The part where her empathy for her betrayal and breaking your heart means more than her pig headedness.

The part where you snap out of your own fog and understand that she ain't really doing squat (according to all that you've written) or making any effort to PROVE herself to you.

Why?

Because her Daddy wasn't like that. So she isn't like that.

She's an indeeeependent woman.

Still.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Horizon said:


> It was pretty tough and she had to cop it from me as much as she gave it.


"as she gave it" ! Fantastic. So what does she have to give it about!? Sheesh! 

With all due respect my friend you are simply nowhere getting how this works. She should be ON HER KNEES. She should not be 'giving' you any 'attitude' about anything anything at all.

NIL REMORSE

I'm sorry but you've been fked over and now unless you wise up fast you're gonna to be fked over again ....and again 

And you're wrong about this 



Horizon said:


> Then for a little mid afternoon kicker she was an hour and a half late from an appointment with her hair salon - 4 hours getting her hair done. I found this out later from my daughter. I went straight to her when she came back and asked her what had happened but she was completely relaxed and explained the delays. I asked her outright if she had hooked up with anyone but she said - no way! Naturally I'm suspicious.


She should be on the phone saying where she is and why shes late there, asking to to meet up with you to check up on her. TO PUT YOUR MIND AT EASE after what *she's* put YOU through ! That's he thing you'd should be getting right now - free gratis right now, complete subjugation from her



Horizon said:


> And trust me, she is one of these people who will not be told. She has made some attempts to address my requests - access to FB, STD test etc. but not much more than that.
> 
> Should I dump my "keep the peace" approach? is that it? For what. I'm having to work on me which I ignored for years. I'm taking baby steps. This woman despite what she did to me is not one who will be screwed to the floorboards (at least not with me).
> 
> Get my point? She is like her father, they have this tough as teak armour plating and don't like to be told what to do?


Don't they? well trust me, here's the news - when one is completely in the wrong guilty of completely destroying a person, in person, you will take being shouted at told what to do because of course you KNOW deep down what you have done is appalling

Yes dump your keep the peace approach. It doesn't work. If it did you'd be telling us different things.

One thing I've learned about human communication/interaction is that people 'understand' talking in a language they understand. If you talk to them in a way they don't get they will gaslight and walk over you. 

Like her dad she is made of teak so talk to her in away that smashes teak to pieces she'll sure understand you when you talk in that way. Meet fire with fire. If that's the language she understand best then speak it 

She's banking on you doing nothing, shes reliant on your fear

To be frank she sounds a right bully and there's only one way they understand anything. 

To be honest this is not about screaming and shouting at her although it sounds like that would help frankly. It's more about changing you and even if you are very non confrontational timid introverted whatever you need to be able to let her understand even in a quiet way that you mean business and you will be in control of how any of this is dealt with. That she is not in control and it WILL be done on your terms. 

You can do that calmly with one steely look right through her eyes when you're telling her that 

Christ sometimes on here and with respect you wonder what is it about the Wayward spouse that the betrayed one ever found to love in the first place.

You need the help this place gives more than most imo so don't get too disheartened by our harsh approach -it's founded on years of human nature experience regarding how a wayward functions and behaves. 

If you want any slight chance of reconciliation you will end up treating her as we advise There is no other way that works. None

Stick in there and you'll get it


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

Headspin said:


> She's banking on you doing nothing, shes reliant on your fear


:iagree:


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## workindad (May 7, 2011)

Wow she really does not have any respect for you or the marriage you are in. I am sorry for your position but I see no signs of real remorse in you descriptions. Also you seem to me to be taking way to much fault for he affair. That action is on her. You didn't go outside the marriage she did. 


She could very easily still be involved with someone apps burner phone meeting somewhere you name it. She's playing you like a fiddle. A cheap one at that. 
Good luck
We
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

Headspin said:


> "as she gave it" ! Fantastic. So what does she have to give it about!? Sheesh!
> 
> With all due respect my friend you are simply nowhere getting how this works. She should be ON HER KNEES. She should not be 'giving' you any 'attitude' about anything anything at all.
> 
> ...


Headspin - I've cut contact, I've abused the hell out of her, I've explained and judged her with the calm of a budhist monk, I've one eightied. Nothing works. She has categorically stated she can't give me what I want to the degree i want it. She is not going to fall to her knees. She will do it. 

I've laid down the law and listed expectations - she said there are certain things she'll meet: FB access, her work PC access, work phone and Iphone access. I can't find anything else. For those who have got their WS's on a leash since being busted I say good luck and well done but this woman wont be on any leash. 

She has admitted fault after spending some time putting it back on me, she has accepted that it is unacceptable to blame me. She expresses IMO genuine regret and she expresses regret about how she has hurt me and potentially ruined our family but she will not do penance. 

Yeah, I still love her - why? Because she is a beautiful intelligent woman, with an iron streak and a fine sense of humour - she knows how to enjoy life and she's the mother of our kids. But she f**ked up and cut me to ribbons and I can't change it and she will probably never live that down. 

I'm gunna try this reconcilliation thing - communication and affection has returned (not sex just yet) between us, we are smiling and our son and daughter are smiling. I'm doing stuff for myself bit by bit. 

If it all falls in a heap I'll get back to you and you can say "told you so". Just the same - thanks everyone for your inspirational words. Cheers Horizon.


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

Horizon said:


> Headspin - I've cut contact, I've abused the hell out of her, I've explained and judged her with the calm of a budhist monk, I've one eightied. Nothing works. She has categorically stated she can't give me what I want to the degree i want it. She is not going to fall to her knees. She will do it.
> 
> I've laid down the law and listed expectations - she said there are certain things she'll meet: FB access, her work PC access, work phone and Iphone access. I can't find anything else. For those who have got their WS's on a leash since being busted I say good luck and well done but this woman wont be on any leash.
> 
> ...


"She will NOT do it" I meant.


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## Jonesey (Jul 11, 2011)

Dont wanna make huge quite thread.

You write

*"She will NOT do it" I meant. *

I´m sorry if that is 110% true. Then it seem´s you do not have many option´s left..

I´m sure you know witch 2 i refer to

Sorry


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Horizon said:


> this woman wont be on any leash.


then unleash her........ to some other poor bastard

If you read through any thread where there is a genuine positive go at reconciliation the very first thing that comes across is that the wayward WANTS to be on a leash untill the betrayed spouse says "okay enough". But to be honest it's almost unwritten that in truth the wayward is never ever again let off the leash EVER . Why? because that's one of the fundamental reasons they became wayward in the first place!! 



Horizon said:


> she will not do penance.
> 
> She has categorically stated she can't give me what I want to the degree i want it.
> 
> ...


no penance = no remorse

On that basis your r is a non starter. Sorry but it is.

The one thing that a reconciliation must have 100% is balance and remorse effectively evens up the score that's been going way beyond the control of the betrayed by the cheat.

No real unconditional remorse or the ability to exhibit repentance means the balance of power is STILL with her and means there can be no healthy recon. None

I'm not into using religious parallels but this will do - Here's a basic Catholic definition of pennace 

Penance is, according to the Roman Catholic Church, the sacrament of reconciliation that "reestablishes a right relationship between God ( you) and a wayward Catholic (your wayward spouse)-just substitute the God bits for real people .............and voila 

I wish you the very best of luck horizon as you will need every bit of it and I hope you can come back and stick it to me about how wrong I was but imo, to slightly amend Arny Schwarzenegger's famous phrase

"you'll be back"


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

If she can't give you what you want or need, why does she want to stay with you?:scratchhead:


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

Wishing you the best, Horizon


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> If she can't give you what you want or need, why does she want to stay with you?:scratchhead:


Let's get real, she is saying she can't and will not go on the leash, she will not crawl back to me. The remorse she has expressed already, as limited as it is, is all she has got. As I've described she has made some concessions which in themselves are not insignificant.

She says she loves me and wants to be with me. I don't look at her now and just dismiss it as I did earlier. It feels good. Yes, more knowledgable contributors have pointed out that this is a fog or a "stage" I'm going through and that it is doomed to failure. 

But my belief is that she got caught up in something that we cannot change and that she does deeply regret it and that we both want to and are working through it. I'm prepared to accept this was an abberation, but, not entirely. And that's her angle - she can't make me into a believer that it will not happen again.

You all say she is duty bound to go to the end of the earth to make it up to me - to do the proving. While this obviously works in some cases I suspect that in the majority of cases this is not what happens. 

And this raises the question - what are our relationships really based on, what are they really made of? How has it changed from what it was to what it is now? And if you don't carry out maintenance - on both sides - then it will fall into dis-repair. From my experience there are some very shake relationships out there.

One couple I know via my partner have 3 teenage kids. The wife has told her girlfriends that she can't stand her husband, she even said she hated him. But they are economic prisoners and they like to gamble as well - apparently. Now there is a house built on sand but still they remain together. Dysfunctional to the max but still all under the same roof. Many relationships are unsteady but still we go on.

The fact is years went by where we didn't communicate and I was openly hostile and for all intents and purposes did not want her around. There were times when I fantasised about a different type of partner, that I wished I had a way out but it came to nothing because it was just a fantasy. And still neither of us found a way or felt compelled to be honest with each other and face it head on.

The end result was that we turned from each other, it was a barren place. Because she was & is out there in the corporate world - the opps were always going to be there. It only took a re-union party, a few drinks and a moment of weakness where a good looking snake said all the right things. It was too easy.

That is her fault. I will not accept on any level that however a dark and lonely place our bedroom had become, our lives had become, that I deserved that. It was the worst thing she could have done and every day I have to deal with the betrayal. Even this morning walking the dog I had to relive yet again everything I have discovered - Christ! I'm even reliving all the posts on TAM!!

I'm wearing it and I'm going to make this work. If I cop it in the neck I can only say mea culpa.


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## BK23 (Apr 17, 2013)

I am really pulling for you, but I am also very concerned. It's kind of shocking how uniformly these situations tend to play out. The odds were stacked against you from the start, and I don't think this approach will do you any favors. That being said, good luck and stay strong.


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

BK23 said:


> I am really pulling for you, but I am also very concerned. It's kind of shocking how uniformly these situations tend to play out. The odds were stacked against you from the start, and I don't think this approach will do you any favors. That being said, good luck and stay strong.


Thanks BK23, the words from a stranger help and I heed your warning. I know others here think I'm a poor sap, a hopeless sucker but I do not have it in me to become this overnight in your face alpha male. In terms of confrontation I gave it a shot on many occasions. She is under no allusions about what I think of what she has done but she clings to this idea that despite the wrongdoing it was justified - in her mind.

Even when she agrees with me that it is not justified I see and I hear that clearly she thinks that effectively we had become single entities under the same roof. That it was justified. At least that's what she's telling herself even though I convincingly argue otherwise. She has to have this counter argument, that's the tough family trait, armor thing.

When it comes down to what we call "tin tacks" - and this is the bit I mean when I say she gives it back - she counters with the lines about how I treated her how I didn't want to be around her how it went on for years. And that part is true. It's an impasse. So I agree to disagree and live with the impasse. We either do or we go our separate ways.

I'm taking these tiny steps to be independent. Yes to show independence but to really be independent. I had become this weak invisible bloke, I'm still effectively that but I now know a s**t load more than I did 2 and a half weeks ago. I'm waking up to it even if I'm in reconciliation mode.

It's funny isn't it? I can say all this and at the same time fantasise about moving on. And maybe that's what will happen - that everyone is right, that the ods are against me/us bigtime and we are doomed. What an ugly outcome.

This is yet another aspect of this twisted mess. Where everything is picked up and discarded like the detritus from a tornado. You go around trying to gather it up and put it back together but pieces are gone forever, outright shattered or bent unrecognisable. So the marquee has gone up, the temporary structure, while we build.

I'm in this with her but there is a side of me now that is saying get your ducks lined up sunshine. Be in a spot to rock and roll if it comes to that. And that is what I'm working on. I'm not saying I wont be hit hard if this all falls over but I will have more solid ground under me to move on from. 

Just so you know - I told my partner outright that if I even get a sniff of her having wonder*LUST* on any level and I mean any level, an iota of it, then I'm gone. I'll get lawyered up, throw her gear out - whatever it takes but there will be no other chance, no recon, no future. Nothing!


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Horizon said:


> I'm wearing it and I'm going to make this work. If I cop it in the neck I can only say mea culpa.


First off appreciate the difficulty and you're only recently into this so.... I hope you can come back here and pull me up by the scruff of the neck and tell me how wrong I was. I'd love to be that wrong. So all the best in making it - fingers crossed for you 

That said I have a couple of questions



Horizon said:


> Let's get real, she is saying she can't and will not go on the leash, she will not crawl back to me.


Right okay we get it - she's as tough as teak but the questions remains - so why, not why can't you go on the leash? Why EXACTLY NOT? C'mon answers here, what's the specific reason why not? So what is it about your wife's personality that in knowing she has transgressed beyond the line and has utterly crushed you as a man but now wants you back, that she cannot now go the full nine yards as opposed the half 5 yards ? What's the big deal here. She's aware she has to show heaps pf remorse here and she also knows it will be a massive boost for your confidence if she did crawl back just this once bury her pride and crawl. If she wants you so bad she would I feel be happy to crawl back to you until you say enough. What is stopping her do that then. For me it would have to be a damn good reason and I can't think of any as yet. 

There are wayward spouses all over this forum in various stages of reconciliation. Some, not many, are hands on full remorse and you know they are giving it 101%, their best shot, to get their husband wife back and you can feel through the screen as you read the thread they have a chance, they are giving the r a proper chance. Some however are not and you know they will ultimately fail and they do. You should maybe ask a couple of the ws about why they felt their only chance back was full unconditional remorse 'on the leash' 



Horizon said:


> The remorse she has expressed already, as limited as it is, is all she has got. As I've described she has made some concessions which in themselves are not insignificant.


This makes it like your trying to get blood from a stone. This should be easy horizon. She should be happy to lift heavy not 'limited' she made 'concessions' well woop de doo. Why is it "all shes got"
Why in these special far from normal circumstances where she could lose the love of her life has she not got a lot more? A lot more. 



Horizon said:


> You all say she is duty bound to go to the end of the earth to make it up to me - to do the proving. While this obviously works in some cases I suspect that in the majority of cases this is not what happens.


So what exactly in the majority of cases do you think IS happening then? Most genuine, no ALL, healthy reconciliations had a wayward who is 101% duty bound to go to the ends of the earth for their betrayed partner - how else does one show complete and utter unconditional remorse for such terrible actions.

This is the bit where your fog sadly will not lift from your eyes


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Horizon said:


> She is under no allusions about what I think of what she has done but *she clings to this idea that despite the wrongdoing it was justified* - in her mind.
> 
> Even when she agrees with me that it is not justified I see and I hear that clearly she thinks that effectively we had become single entities under the same roof. *That it was justified.* At least that's what she's telling herself even though I convincingly argue otherwise.


Wow :scratchhead:

With respect, if you are going accept that sort of shvt you're almost deserving to get slaughtered and believe me you will 

I'm rarely rendered speechless but I think you've done me there - I'm out of this now

I've wished you luck on this one my friend but with this woman you're gonna need a lot more than that


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## Hardtohandle (Jan 10, 2013)

My wife did all this sh1t because she was faking it and was still with the OM. 

She only did so much because she didn't fvcking care.. 

This is what I smell here and you don't have the pair to fix it. 

You will be like me divorced and then you will grow a pair.. 

Remorseful people will beg and grovel. They really have faced the reality that they cannot live without that other person. This is why they will do what is needed to fix it..

Your wife is out the door and your not doing anything real about it. Except watching her go. Save yourself any further pain and agony and let her go.


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## Jasel (Jan 8, 2013)

I'm not even going to say you have to become some in your face alpha male. You need to dig what's left of your self-esteem out of the garbage disposal, drag your self respect out of the basement kicking and screaming, take your balls out of her purse and head to the nearest divorce lawyer's office.

You need to start detaching from this woman with the intent of eventually never having to deal with her again. Not on getting her back.


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

Horizon, you're going to do what you feel is best for you. 
I get that. 

Good luck.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

So no matter what I do, experience demonstrates that she in fact doesn't have a lot to lose and we are headed for the junk file. It is not possible for a person to be believed if they can't show grovelling remorse after being busted for cheating. That's just what the empirical evidence demonstrates huh? There must be exceptions. Hello, any cheaters out there who are happily back ensconced in the arms of the betrayed who didn't have to grovel to get there?


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

Headspin said:


> then unleash her........ to some other poor bastard
> 
> If you read through any thread where there is a genuine positive go at reconciliation the very first thing that comes across is that the wayward WANTS to be on a leash untill the betrayed spouse says "okay enough". But to be honest it's almost unwritten that in truth the wayward is never ever again let off the leash EVER . Why? because that's one of the fundamental reasons they became wayward in the first place!!
> 
> ...


Women should be kept on leashes?


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

Headspin said:


> First off appreciate the difficulty and you're only recently into this so.... I hope you can come back here and pull me up by the scruff of the neck and tell me how wrong I was. I'd love to be that wrong. So all the best in making it - fingers crossed for you
> 
> That said I have a couple of questions
> 
> ...


Maybe that's the truth HS, she doesn't want or need me that bad. Maybe that is the simple answer that despite what she is saying I'm expendable. And now she's had a sniff...maybe I'm a complete fool headed for a big fall sooner or later, But the thing is I have tried every which way for her to get her head around the profound impact she has had me. And her response is always the same - "I can see the pain in your face, I'm sorry..." and when I start putting the acid on her she gets defensive and diverts and gaslights and comes back to this statement about not being able to give me what I expect - grovelling, sublimation whatever.

You want to know what I'm dealing with? When we had it out the other night, yet again, she suddenly brought up the fact that I changed jobs ten years ago. She said "You never discussed it with me, I didn't want you to work for your brother, I knew it wouldn't work....". OK what has that got to do with anything I asked? Her point was that I had blithely gone off and made a decision without running it by her, indicating my selfishness....huh? Somehow this realtes to my character which ties into infidelity...somehow.


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## carpenoctem (Jul 4, 2012)

*Horizon:*

*She can’t be on a leash / grovel = she can reengage with you and the marriage only if she can maintain her dignity at a certain level, and not be frequently reminded of her status as a ‘reformed sinner’. That makes sense.

If you have a revenge affair, will she now accept your justification for it - that you also needed to regain YOUR dignity and manhood to a certain level at least, and to stop viewing yourself as a betrayed who compromised / surrendered?*

Or is it implicitly / explicitly proscribed as part of the Reconciliation?

*Even now, her dignity is far more important than yours, right? 

(She seems to have no real conception how much of YOUR dignity you have had to compromise, to even attempt Reconciliation. How inexplicably difficult it is for you, to now act as though you and she are having a Reconciliation on an equal footing).*





She tells you she is justified in having the affair, because you and she had disengaged emotionally during that time.

*If you don’t demolish that rationale altogether (at least impress upon her, in no uncertain terms, that YOU totally reject that surmise), there is no realistic scope for long-term fidelity in your marriage. Please accept only (part) responsibility for the PROBLEM (the marital issues), and reject any responsibility for the SOLUTION she found (the affair).* At least, voice it WHENEVER she gives you this rationale (she does not have to accept it).

Because, if your relationship takes a southerly dive at some point again (which is a given in all relationships) will she or you be justified in having another affair?

*Going by her overall personality / behavior profile, I am surprised that, when you told her that if she had another affair, you would divorce her, she didn’t tell you: I cannot reconcile under such duress / threatening conditions. All I can say is: I will try.
*



*Overall, there is a power equation in your relationship / reconciliation that is not in your favour. And in a standard Reconciliation, it should be in the Betrayed Spouse’s favour, at least for some time (until some trust is regained / some intimacy is restored).* So say the experts (but these experts / MCs also have the highest / one of the highest divorce rates).


*You KNOW that (that ideally, she must submit to your need for healing first, before you can commit to reconciliation / rebuilding). But you are constrained to reconcile minus that.*

You are trying to make it work in the long run, through a push and pull, pro and con, trust but verify strategy. So I presume.




Well, sometimes, Providence brings in a situation that changes all equations -- a new emotional awakening / revelation, a change in fortune and life situations, an epiphany / rediscovery of spirituality, witnessing of a calamity, or even a shared tragedy.

Hope it ushers in a change in your equation through a *good* event.


Best of luck, Brother. may the future be kind.



*Please accept a no-crotch-contact hug from me.*


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

[B]carpenoctem[/B] said:


> *Horizon:
> 
> She can’t be on a leash / grovel = she can reengage with you and the marriage only if she can maintain her dignity at a certain level, and not be frequently reminded of her status as a ‘reformed sinner’. That makes sense. Yes, that's fundamentally it. Pride, I get it. I get the feeling people here think there is something wrong with me understanding and empathising at the same time as I have had to go through so much emotional turmoil
> 
> ...


* As we say down under - "thanks mate"*


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## carpenoctem (Jul 4, 2012)

QUOTE: [Q: If you have a revenge affair, will she now accept your justification for it - that you also needed to regain YOUR dignity and manhood to a certain level at least, and to stop viewing yourself as a betrayed who compromised / surrendered?

A:
_*yes, I have covered off on that in the heat of the moment. I told her straight up that if it were to happen she would have to wear it. Her reply to that, in the heat of battle, was not flattering and brought into question the possibility beyond paid professional help of anyone being available to me*]_ UNQUOTE:

*In short, she thinks you cannot get another woman to have an affair / sex with you, and your only option will be a paid sex worker.

Your Sex Rank, (or the more fancy ‘Sex Market Value’), in her eyes, is near-Zero.

She feels you should be thankful that someone as desirable as her (as evidenced by Other Men being interested in her) deigns to continue to be your spouse, and has sex with you on occasion* (if not right now, a little later). This thought also translates into a sense of entitlement (she is of a higher sex rank than you - in her own view - and so, is entitled to some extra).

*This is at the core of her reluctant / uncompromising approach to Reconciliation, despite being the offending party, Horizon.*

Ironically, had you sounded her on separation / tried a walk-out bluff / handed her the divorce papers, and then, she saw other women evincing interest in you, this could have been reversed to a great extent (unless she had emotionally signed off by then). And you could have taken back the divorce submission later, when a certain balance of emotional power / respect was attained.

*That’s where the hard sell approach works.*

Unfortunately, in your current state of affairs, this is not feasible.

Or is it?


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

Horizon said:


> You want to know what I'm dealing with? When we had it out the other night, yet again, she suddenly brought up the fact that I changed jobs ten years ago. She said "You never discussed it with me, I didn't want you to work for your brother, I knew it wouldn't work....". OK what has that got to do with anything I asked? Her point was that I had blithely gone off and made a decision without running it by her, indicating my selfishness....huh? Somehow this realtes to my character which ties into infidelity...somehow.


You're right there is no connection. There is no equivalence. 

Firstly, let me say that I don't think anyone here thinks you're a sap or a sucker or any of the other terms you've used to put yourself down. You are just in love with your wife. In reality the person your wife used to be, before she unilaterally visited on you the most hurt and betrayal possible. This is not your fault.

*No one can make you feel inferior without your consent. *Don't do give your consent. Do the 180 for yourself. 

Now, about this teak armour of hers. Beating it further with a sledgehammer won't get you results. It'll make a dent or two but you won't get through.

Therefore use a different tool. Use a drill. Drill through that armour till you get to her and her true remorse. 

Here is the drill bit: *There is no justification for her cheating. *Nothing. No there isn't. Don't accept it. Don't give your consent. It's not true. 50/50 for the marriage getting to a poor state. 100% on her for the affair. There were other options. She didn't take them. She chose to have an affair. You had no say in that, did you? Do not engage her rationalisation hamster. Don't let her side-track you both with events from a decade ago.

Just keep drilling. There is no justification. No equivalence. No matter what ludicrous thing she throws at you to try to justify her choices - drill past it. Be unwavering. Keep calm. There is no justification. Keep drilling till you hit the remorse that your deserve.


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

azteca1986 said:


> You're right there is no connection. There is no equivalence.
> 
> Firstly, let me say that I don't think anyone here thinks you're a sap or a sucker or any of the other terms you've used to put yourself down. You are just in love with your wife. In reality the person your wife used to be, before she unilaterally visited on you the most hurt and betrayal possible. This is not your fault.
> 
> ...


Newsflash! She wants sex tonight. She put it on me half an hour ago. And...AND!! has said we should be having sex every week...which I did humbly suggest a week ago when I was describing the sort of intimate life I was going to have with or without her. Hmmmmmm....this woman is either very manipulative or she has been doing a lot of thinking. Now...will I or wont I.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

Why do you have to reconcile ?


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

Horizon said:


> Newsflash! She wants sex tonight. She put it on me half an hour ago. And...AND!! has said we should be having sex every week...which I did humbly suggest a week ago when I was describing the sort of intimate life I was going to have with or without her. Hmmmmmm....*this woman is either very manipulative or she has been doing a lot of thinking. *Now...will I or wont I.


Most likely she's both. I like your 'with or without you' statement. 

Ha! That's not really the drilling I was talking about. 

I'd suggest you take the opportunity to ravage your wife. Then afterwards let her know you still haven't decided if _you want to_ reconcile. If her hamster makes a reappearance... drill her again. It might be she's throwing out something new, to stop you from making her own up in full for what she did. I'm glad you're aware of that.


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## daisygirl 41 (Aug 5, 2011)

Horizon I think you are missing the point. The point is that if your wife was TRULY remorseful for her affair then she would be showing it in her words and ACTIONS. SHE would be doing all the heavy lifting and offering transparency, not because you have asked her, but because she is truly sorry and wants to do those things for you to help you heal.
What is she doing to help you?
What do her actions tell you?

My H didn't grovel at my feet and beg forgiveness but he was Humble and deeply sorry for his actions. He OFFERED to do whatever it took to make things right and to ease my pain. One year into R, he is still doing those things.
She needs to accept responsibility for what she has done and act accordingly.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MrK (Sep 2, 2010)

Hardtohandle said:


> She only did so much because she didn't fvcking care..


Sorry man, but this. See also my earlier post about her not caring if you go out and get laid. Despite what she says, she doesn't love you any more. Of that I have little doubt.

As an aside, I've just noticed a commonality between some user names. I'll start with this one and a couple of others I've seen. Please add:

hardtohandle
Scarlet Begonias
Row Jimmy


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Horizon said:


> Maybe that's the truth HS, she doesn't want or need me that bad. Maybe that is the simple answer that despite what she is saying I'm
> 
> expendable. And now she's had a sniff...maybe I'm a complete fool headed for a big fall sooner or later, But the thing is I have tried every which way for her to get her head around the profound impact she has had me. And her response is always the same - "I can see the pain in your face, I'm sorry..." and when I start
> 
> ...


Okay I'll bite this once as I can very much relate to how you feel this early into your situation and I'm trying to help you here. Here's how the "somehow" ties into her infidelities. 
Apologies for the longish post but it's the "justification" part of my story that you will see relates to you 

For me 8 yrs ago when the first major infidelity emerged one of the things that kept popping out when it was discussed in r was this little gem " and I never got over you making me work part time at F **** & Co in London 8 years ago after we first met". "It's a source of resentment for me" I ignored that as I just thought excuse, ridiculous you enjoyed working there for that time I seemed to remember that. 

Fast forward a couple of years and another OM and another reconciliation "and when you forced me to get a part time job in London 9 years ago" Again I dismissed this as stbxw does have disorder problems and mental issues history. Just an excuse I thought Then others got added each time "you've never secure the future of myself and our children". "I had to go back to work after I**** was born" "because of you I never had my wild 20's !" Each time another man appeared (and sometimes when they didn't too) these were the 'reasons.' The "sorry" the "remorse" always had a reason, a condition, so was in fact unconditional (and therefor doomed to fail) 

After two more in Dec 2011 and March 2012 it finally ended. And we've been separate for a year awaiting the final paperwork for divorce now 

*Now here's the bit for you to note.* About 4 years ago after yet another episode and the same excuses I actually stopped thinking it was ridiculous and after having it drummed into my brain so much I actually accepted her reasons and agreed about them,(!!!) although thinking in the back of my mind that I'm sure it wasn't like she says. Ah well anything to get her back on track will do becasue when it's good outside of this madness it's fantastic and I love her so so much. I then went through a time where I believed I was quite a bad person for having 'driven' her to do what she had done. Although a full time househouse husband for 8 years and working part time as well. I started to believe I was useless, I had done very little, she had contributed everything after all surely to make 
somebody do such bad things I must have 'made her ' nobody could surely just be that black in their heart they would choose to simply pull this kind of destruction without serious provocation? 

I then found journals / diaries of hers from 16 years back and at the time of that part time job in London it says in her own hand how fantastic the new part time job was and how she adored me and my for standing by her mental issues and how it had given her a new lease of life. That's inbetween the crazy shvt about still feeling suicidal etc etc. She had to work in that job for 8 weeks for 10 hrs a week!! So after it confirming like I thought that she had been happy to do that part time jopb I quickly realized I was not going out of MY mind that this was simply an excuse (one of them) to create resentment towards me to propel her to JUSTIFY to live the adulterous life she enjoyed. 

Then I set myself a mammoth task going through all the work records of both of us - 15 years worth. 
Result ? - Officially and in the most official way there is - tax records - employment records I had done more work over the marriage. I had earned more money - tens of thousands of £s more. I had contributed more to the mortgage and she had only ever worked part time for 90% of the time.!!! And I househusbanded full time too. She'd effectively spent a large part of our marriage in bed with her issues unable to cope often getting up at midday to do a couple of hours here an there and often called that 'full time'. She had little to do with the kids. 

At the end of it all April last year again it all came up "You made me ...part time job 15 years ago !!!" I kid you not. 
"I can't get the resentment of it out of my mind and so I looked at other men to understand my sufferings" etc etc etc So 15 years later still using this complete and utter lie to batter me with to excuse her appalling behavior 

One thing I did say was "listen you need to come up with better reasons that that pile of cack." The "you never supported the familiy" had by now grown to "I am the only one that works you have done little" 
Now of course I am not perfect - who is - but I took my head from out of my arse slowly and realized just who had been doing what and when. 
The crux - So desperate was she to find a good enough reason/s for her serial cheating that she ended up with the insanity from above thinking none of it could be proved otherwise. She actually believed it herself - STILL does even in the light of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Still says "you made me do it"

Horizon - No remorse at all just like your wife. So desperate to find, to legitimize her adultery she'd start using frankly laughable hysterically funny reasons. Can't you see the difference beteween that and somebody that says "Oh fk I have been bad. I never thought I'd be capable of such malicious hurtful intent against the person closest to me but I am. It's shocking but I am. ME. I can be that bad a person and need to look at myself and improve myself to try to be somebody that cannot hurt another human being in this way."

That's what you should be seeing from her not in any slight way justifying herself

I'm sorry friend but until you see anything like that your r is dead in the water

You mentioned exceptions? No, there are'nt any - NONE
If any r is undertaken without the healthy balance of true remorse it cannot work
Any rug sweeping no matter how small will come back to bite both your arses be it next month or 9 years time and then you will doubt that the r was ever true after that.

I know the power of love, it's supreme ability to dilute the negatives to deflect the truth and I don't for a second blame you for your stance but here you have had the benefit of something I and many others did not have - This 'Talking About Marriage' website. It's your shortcut out of a terrible situation and you'll never get imo better advice on these matters in any capacity professional or otherwise. Please listen


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## Hardtohandle (Jan 10, 2013)

Horizon said:


> So no matter what I do, experience demonstrates that she in fact doesn't have a lot to lose and we are headed for the junk file. It is not possible for a person to be believed if they can't show grovelling remorse after being busted for cheating. That's just what the empirical evidence demonstrates huh? There must be exceptions. Hello, any cheaters out there who are happily back ensconced in the arms of the betrayed who didn't have to grovel to get there?


No one is saying she has to crawl on her hands and knees.

BTW about your having sex comment. 
Me and my wife fvcked like rabbits during our Fake Reconcile period from Sept until Dec of 2012. We were sore probably 3 to 4 times a week. While was she faking it ? Because the OM was fixing the apartment that needed tons of work before they moved into it. 

My wife of 19 fvcking years pretended. Yes that is right fvcking pretended to love me until her boyfriend of 5 months could get work done in their new place. 

Am I saying this is your wife ? No absolutely not.. I hope and pray its exactly what your saying. But if anything I have come to learn by reading all these stories all these months here.. *It is EXACTLY the SAME SH1T*.. 

Your story is not different from the 1000's before you and after you.. They *ALL* do the same thing. Granted you might get the slight twist that its with the same sex every once and a while, but it still the same. 

I would look at my wife while making love and just stop and look at her in AWE. She was so fvcking hot and sensual.. She was beautiful.. I enjoyed when men looked at her.. I knew she was with me or I thought at least. When she would catch me looking and ask me what I was doing I would tell her, you are so fvcking beautiful, I love you.. She would giggle and grab me and pull me towards her. This is after 19 years.. 

Mind you I'm a Cop/Detective in a big city and I've been doing it for 23 years.. The biggest con job was pull right in front of me by my wife and I never seen it.. 

If my wife can do this to me, I don't put anything past anyone. 

My wife has now decided not to speak to me anymore for some unknown reason. She has semi abandoned her 2 boys of 8 and 13.. She picks them up for school and then drops them off back home, then leaves to go back to her apartment to be with her boyfriend. She could stay with her kids, I don't get home until maybe 6 or 7 PM.. She could make them dinner. My wife hasn't cooked my oldest a dinner in 4 months and my youngest in about 2 months.

Many of us have been down these various roads.. We can see the signs. I honestly do not want any good human being to ever endure the pain I have gone through.. I can tell you factually I would not be alive today without the people here and my family and friends / co-workers.. 

You think its bad now ? Wait if you find out its all a lie.. The pain becomes unbearable *( I just had to stop because I started crying typing this sh1t )*. What happens is we feel the pain and the direction this *MIGHT* be going in and we relive the pain of what that road will bring to you. We don't want you going down that path. 

The problem is your too close to this and you want to believe her, because who the fvck doesn't want to believe someone the love so dearly. I sure did. Hook, line and sinker..

I hope you come back and say HA you were all wrong we are all fixed and on 2 years recovery. But as I can read, some are just waiting patiently for that *"you guys were all right"* post. Vmail thread pretty much is going that route.

I know its hard.. But you need to try, I mean really try to take a step back and look at this with clear eyes. Make sure she is 1000% honest. Trust but Verify.. 

Nothing makes it worse then being lied to yet again. It crushes you like nothing else.. To be double betrayed by someone you love is almost unrecoverable, at least to me. I know I have many hang ups now because of it. 

I look at my wife even today with all the betrayal and lies and I still love her. I want to hate her, but I can't.. So I have to pretend to be mad to be angry with her. I can't show weakness. I have to let her go forever, though I want nothing more then to grab her, make love to her and tell her it will all be good. To sell everything and move away to a new place and start over.. But I know its all a fantasy, it will never happen that way. 

Again these are the pains we don't want you to endure. The only way is to be very strong and aggressive about this. As has been said repeatedly. You need to have the courage to loose this to keep it. 

Good luck..


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

Wow, HtH - that's a whale of a story. 

Glad you're moving on. 

.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MrK (Sep 2, 2010)

I'd like to expand on what HTH wrote.

I place it at about 15 years ago that my wife stopped loving me. Problem was, I didn't put all of the pieces together and figure it out until my horrible, kick to the gut, ah-HA moment about two years ago. A moment I'll never forget.

Same thing, only different. My wife acted the part. Making it look like she loved me when she really hated me. She hasn't left me yet, but just give it time. I've already gone through the mourning of a lost marriage, so by the time she moves it will be like losing a long time roommate, only not as sad.

What I wanted to expand on was what changed when I found out. These three thoughts rushed to my brain within 3 seconds of my discovery (After OMFG!):

- My present was crushed. 
- My future dangerously uncertain.
- My PAST, a lie. 

My past. 

How do you change a past? It happened. There's no denying it. But all of those hugs. All of those kisses. All of those special moments when we talked of our undying love for one-another. All of our plans, dreams hopes we shared together. Gone. 

In the blink of an eye. I lost the past 20 years of my life and my future in an instant.

Sorry. I digress. You have NO clue if she loves you or not. I suspect not.


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## DavidWYoung (Feb 3, 2012)

I see you too are trying the "David Young method of getting along!"Yes well, THAT DOES NOT WORK!


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

MrK said:


> I'd like to expand on what HTH wrote.
> 
> I place it at about 15 years ago that my wife stopped loving me. Problem was, I didn't put all of the pieces together and figure it out until my horrible, kick to the gut, ah-HA moment about two years ago. A moment I'll never forget.
> 
> ...


Jesus! and you're still with her.

One thing that forever intrigues me is the clear difference in definition of love.
I used constantly be thinking, sometimes saying, "hang on if you love somebody you surely cannot put them through this" and she would counter with "I have loved you like I could no other man, you have been the love of my life" 

So what is the love she was talking about then ?!?

Just to see how much she does not get it after a year separate and impending divorce she wrote two weeks ago in terms of my continued revulsion and bitterness towards her "I understand that my leaving has been painful for you" 
I replied "no, as ever, missing it completely. I am pissed and angry at living the lie 11 (15 in all) years of marriage in which you mostly did not want to be there and kept proclaiming your happiness as the life you actually had with me was too good for you to lose so you decided to stay in it, eat cake with other men, and completely annihilate me slowly with each infidelity - our kids and the wives kids of all the other married men as well. 

I said "Each stroll hand in hand on the beach, alongside a canal, each 'magic' moment, every 'good' time was in fact a fking lie of colossal proportions because the next day you'd be wanting out or wanting to be with someone else - you're real feelings were false. "You'd sit at Christmas dinner surrounded by ever loving kids and family with your finger on the mobile pressing the send button to of a text to the latest saying how you wish you were at his Christmas dinner table" - That's how much of a fking lie you lived" 

After all the excuses the deceit and everything I can only conclude some people are simply dark, their hearts are fking black, as black the abyss and it's then highlighted by nil remorse (still is) 

As far as I am aware and maybe my idea of love is wrong or distorted, they have not one iota about what love is in any way shape or form. They know about acting drama receiving attention and how to perpetuate a myth for their own ends 

When I think of how 'clean' my life is now she is not here I can hardly believe it. 
I feel like I've come out of prison from a long sentence or more accurately 'house arrest'

Thank God it's over


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

Very poignant post, Headspin
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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