# At wits end



## Upanddown (Sep 14, 2012)

Hi ive been reading these threads and now im lost and confused and seeking advice.

My wife tells me she wants it over then tells me she wants it to get better.im confused , i believe she loves me but is so angry and frustrated at me that i cant connect with her
Im getting counselling to help with nagging and repeating myself 
Do i leave her alone and wait tll she comes to me? And when hat happens what do i do to improve things
I have so many thoughts going thru my head
Cheers


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## IrishGirlVA (Aug 27, 2012)

It sounds like it would do your wife some good to get counseling too since she is just as confused as you are. And it's no wonder you are confused. She is going back and forth with her emotions which is just making you go "upanddown" -- just as your user name says. This is not healthy for either of you. And I'd throw a marriage counselor in there as well. You can't be subjected to this limbo. You obviously want to make it work but you can't go at it alone. And don't blame yourself for "nagging and repeating" yourself in the past. All you can do right now is work on yourself and implement those changes now and in the future. Whether or not your wife wants to be around to benefit from the new and improved you is up to her. But if she doesn't make a decision soon then you'll need to. Sorry you are feeling so low.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

Upanddown said:


> Hi ive been reading these threads and now im lost and confused and seeking advice.
> 
> My wife tells me she wants it over then tells me she wants it to get better.im confused , i believe she loves me but is so angry and frustrated at me that i cant connect with her
> Im getting counselling to help with nagging and repeating myself
> ...


It sounds like you're feeling pretty overwhelmed. Can you talk a little more about what's going on so it will be a little easier to offer the kind of support you'll find helpful?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Upanddown said:


> Hi ive been reading these threads and now im lost and confused and seeking advice.
> 
> My wife tells me she wants it over then tells me she wants it to get better.im confused , i believe she loves me but is so angry and frustrated at me that i cant connect with her
> Im getting counselling to help with nagging and repeating myself
> ...


First off you work on yourself. Why did you nag and repeat yourself in the past? Can you give some examples? 

Take a look at the books in my signature block below for "His Needs, Her Needs" and "Love Busters". You can your wife could use those books as a way to guide you together into repairing your marriage.


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## WyshIknew (Aug 18, 2012)

KathyBatesel said:


> It sounds like you're feeling pretty overwhelmed. Can you talk a little more about what's going on so it will be a little easier to offer the kind of support you'll find helpful?


:iagree:


There are a lot of people on here that will be able to help. You may not always like what they have to say and some of it may be counter intuitive but it will aimost certainly work.

What you need to do is give a more detailed account of your problem so people can get a handle on your situation.

For example, I am x years old my wife is x years old and we have been married x years, previous history of marriage, what has led up to this point, and steps you have taken to address the problem.

Oh and welcome! Hope you find the answers you need.


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## Upanddown (Sep 14, 2012)

Hi all
I nagged because i wasnt feeling affection or loved or things that were important to me didnt seem to matter
This is where im at now last night went to bed and wife wanted me to spoon her and said we were getting better and i need to stick to counselling
This morning i get im unhappy i resent you "we can have good days but i resent you everyday " She believes she sacrified everything for me . i think she just threw a huge temper tantrum but still i only replied thank you for being honest

Im still confused any way thank you for the replies everyone


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## Upanddown (Sep 14, 2012)

We are both 41 and been married over 18months

I mourn the fact we used to be a greatteam together and she used to hug and kiss me all the time
Now i only get sex when its her making the move
And im constantly feel like a yo yo
Im not really good at expressing my thoughts on paper

Ive started counselling and been to 2 sessions she came back with my wife being an introvert and that she gets overwhelmed and flies off the handle
Her advise was to be quiet and try not to reply to hurtful remarks


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

If you feel like you're at your wits end, then you need to man up and get serious about your OWN life.

These commandments are for you. Next time your wife pulls more of her bullsh1t, quickly give her what she wants (a separation) and follow these commandments to the T without backtracking.

Regardless of what your wife does, you will be feeling much stronger and happier within weeks (if you don't backtrack):

*Synthetic's 10 Commandments*:

1. Read this link - *Just Let Them Go*

2. Follow the following rules: *The 180 degree rules*

3. Read this short book in the next 24 hours: No More Mr. Nice Guy

4. Separate all finances and stop supporting her 'single' lifestyle

5. Book a counseling appointment ASAP

6. Doesn't matter how you do it, but *sweat the pain of anxiety out*. Treadmills are your best friend. Use them. This is very important: You need to physically feel spent before you hit bed every night. 

7. Think a lot, read a lot, and cry as needed - This particular link should be open in your browser at all times and read multiple times: DO YOU LOVE TO BE NEEDED, OR NEED TO BE LOVED?

8. Find your social worth by socializing with as many people as possible (females work better). Spend time with friends, but don't just settle for your circle of friends. This is the best time to make new ones and feel attractive/attracted. You're not looking for sex or a relationship. You're looking for natural human attraction between you and others.

9. Do whatever it takes to go on a trip that involves a long flight, preferably to a country where English or your first language is not spoken

10. Start living an 'overly' fun life without feeling any guilt. This is the hardest task ahead. It's important to wash the guilt out of yourself once you have realized where it originates from via all the reading and counseling you've done.


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## Upanddown (Sep 14, 2012)

Hi just an update i went and got counselling and was prescribed lexapro for anxiety disorder.
I was feeling better and could feel it working then upped dose as prescribed and reacted badly. I saw the doctor who agreed i had side effects
Yesterday we had a arguement and i went to parents for the night
Last week we were ok ow its i want out i hate you
I went on lexapro and seeing a pysch after she assured me support

Im at a loss at what to do except stick to the 180 list. The doctor has told me the meds will take another 2 weeks to settle down

I read in the 180 list "do not believe everything that is said" i think if my meds works things might improve im trying just to focus on me now im getting help
Cheers
Brad


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Brad, I join Kathy and Wysh in welcoming you to the TAM forum. And I generally agree with the advice that other respondents have already given. It would be helpful if you would provide additional detail about your relationship problems. Specifically,

As EleGirl asks, what things have you been nagging about? 
As Wysh asks, what is your relationship history with your W? E.g., how long did you two date before getting married? How long did your being "a great team together" last? Did your wonderful sex life go off a cliff right after the marriage?
What are your W's temper tantrums like? E.g., do they typically start in a few seconds (as though she has flipped a switch in her mind) and then last several hours? Or do they come on so slowly that you can see them developing early on?
Are the triggers for her rages fairly predictable or, rather, are they so unpredictable that you have the feeling you are always walking on eggshells to avoid setting her off?
Are her anger issues directed solely at you or, rather, broadly to include strangers and casual friends?
Does she report having had a bad childhood, trouble with siblings, and bad experiences with former BFs?
Finally, does she show any irrational jealousy or lack of trust in you? E.g., when you explain things rationally, does she often refuse to believe you?


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## Upanddown (Sep 14, 2012)

Its 3 yrs later and we have seperated i started another thread 

Uptown ive been reading your posts and they are enlightening
She ticks some of the bi polar things i read in one of your posts


I know i should have done something before now ive been getting IC for a while we even went to hawaii in January its a big change everything is my fault and i make her do or deserve her treatment of me 


I know i cant make someone work on making us better and getting help to change things but its hard to accept it could really be over 

Maybe im in denial and remembering the good stuff instead of whats been happening in the last 6 to 8 months 
Cheers
Brad


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Upanddown said:


> Uptown ive been reading your posts and they are enlightening. She ticks some of the bi polar things i read in one of your posts.


Brad, perhaps your W does have bipolar disorder. That does not seem to be what you are describing, however. Rather, the behavioral traits you describe -- i.e., "huge temper tantrums," rapid flips between adoring you and devaluing you, sex going off a cliff right after the marriage, and anger issues ("i resent you everyday") -- are some of the classic warning signs for BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). Importantly, I'm not suggesting that your W has full-blown BPD but, instead, that she might exhibit moderate to strong traits of it.

I therefore suggest that you learn how to spot the warning signs for both disorders. Doing so will help you protect yourself and help you decide whether there is sufficient reason to spend money seeking a professional opinion from a psychologist. Of course, only a professional can diagnose your W's issues.

If you ever feel strongly tempted to take her back, I would suggest you see a psychologist -- for a visit or two _all by yourself_ -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is you are dealing with. Importantly, if BPD is involved, you cannot rely on HER therapist to be candid with you. Therapists routinely withhold the name of the disorder from BPDer clients -- and from their partners and insurance companies -- for the protection of those clients. Hence, if your W really does have strong BPD traits, your best chance of obtaining a candid professional opinion about her issues is to see a psychologist who has never seen or treated her. This ensures that the psych is ethically bound to protect only YOUR best interests, not hers. 

An easy place to start reading is my post at 12 Bipolar/BPD Differences, which is based on my experiences with a bipolar-1 sufferer (my foster son) and a BPDer (my exW). If that description of BPD traits rings many bells, I would suggest you also check out my list of 18 BPD Warning Signs. If you would like to discuss these behavioral traits here, it would be very helpful if you would answer the questions I asked above three years ago. Those questions were intended to help you decide whether you are seeing very many BPD traits at a strong level. Take care, Brad.


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## Upanddown (Sep 14, 2012)

Uptown thanks for replying

Im seperated now and we sold the house 
There is a positive we both are out of debt although i found out after the sale she owed over 50k on credit cards

I dont know if we will reconnect i know its now out of my hands ive told her i want to work on us and we need counselling to help
And work on issues its up to her to acknowledge and decide

I know now that i have been thru a lot 

Im having trouble writing this and expressing myself that list of 18 behaviours gets a lot of ticks

I know her anger is overboard to the issue and can drag on for days and that not just me its workmates and family
I know its ok then as soon as something goes wrong its i want out i feel like i was on eggshells
I get blamed for everything thats wrong and that her behaviour is my fault or i caused it
I know she rewrites history to suit her needs or point of view 
I know her verbal attacks have no boundary or filter sometimes at work i could get upto 200 txts venting about everything and abusive
Her behaviour towards me and my daughters (mine) is different when we are on our own 
She does play the victim its always someone else's fault (work issues previous divorce)





The more i write about it the more i think that what has been happening is bad for me and my self esteem and maybe this isnt normal
I want a happy marriage i get there are ups and downs but i dont treat her like the way she treats me. I get partners are meant to support and help . Its hard to tell someone they need help when they clearly believe its all your fault. Im getting counselling the counsellor has seen and heard messasges and tells me im a victim of emotional and verbal abuse and controlling behaviour im obviously down at the moment ill know ill bounce back i always do , i need time and get better at knowing my boundaries and how i want to be treated
Time to focus on the 180 for myself and try not to go backwards

Cheers
Brad


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## Upanddown (Sep 14, 2012)

I see bpd is different to bi polar!
She ticks a lot of the bpd boxes

Time to go read and learn


Thanks
Brad


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Upanddown said:


> I see bpd is different to bi polar


Yes, a huge difference. Whereas bipolar usually can be treated quite successfully by swallowing a pill, BPD is a personality disorder that is extremely difficult to treat because BPDers lack sufficient self awareness and ego strength to tolerate the treatment. And medication won't make a dent in BPD.



> Time to go read and learn


For a good book, the best seller is _Stop Walking on Eggshells. _The 2nd best seller is _I Hate You, Don't Leave Me._ For online articles, I suggest the excellent articles at BPDfamily's resources section (to see articles, click on "Foward" button on that page). My favorites are article #9 "Surviving a Breakup with Someone Suffering from BPD" and article #10 "Leaving a Partner with BPD." Here on TAM, I recommend the discussion in Maybe's Thread.


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## Upanddown (Sep 14, 2012)

Uptown
Its been three years of this until it finally blew up when i first posted here she told me it was over and I was sleeping in other room for weeks before being told to come back and work on us. 

It upsets me that she moved on so quick shes back on dating sites its like it all meant nothing 
I dont know what her family think about all this i dont know if ive been run down to justify all this

I understand now she had bpd that i cant help with it and she refuses to acknowledge it could be part of the problem

For years i put up with on and off with our marriage , the constant rage or tantrums or silent treatment for days over minor or trivial issues
Im really struggling with this at the start she was the best girlfriend when we bought the house and got married it all went south with the up and downs 

Ive read those links on bpd family theres a lot of stuff thats similar to my situation 
Theres a lot of people there who acknowledge this sort of relationships has cause a lot of damage 
Thats how i feel now damaged and scared of getting into something like this again

Cheers
Brad


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Upanddown said:


> At the start she was the best girlfriend when we bought the house and got married it all went south with the up and downs.


Brad, if she does have strong BPD traits, they likely would not have started showing themselves for about 4 to 6 months, the typical length of the infatuation period. Hence, if you got as much as a year of uninterrupted bliss, consider yourself very lucky. During the courtship period, a BPDer is so infatuated with you that she truly believes you are her soul mate and have come to rescue her from unhappiness. 

In this way, the infatuation holds her two great fears -- abandonment and engulfment -- at bay. As soon as the courtship period ends, however, that infatuation starts to evaporate -- allowing her two fears to return and be easily triggered by you. I mention this so you know that, if she does have strong BPD traits as you suspect, she likely did love you (albeit, in the immature way that a young child is able to love).


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## Upanddown (Sep 14, 2012)

G'day forum
My wife came over last night and ended up staying the night 
We did kissing and it was intimate 

She has agreed to go to counselling together see about things and maybe talk about it with an independent person
I understand now that she will always be needing that place to stay away like a little break if we are to reconnect
I do love her I think we can work I know we got bogged down in money and arguing and just stopped being a team

I've been reading no more mr nice guy I know see I need to stop being a fixer for things I can't fix or isn't my problem

I've told her what I hope to achieve I'm also aware counselling may not work but at least it will help us divorce amicably if that what happens
I know that counselling may help us to learn and not make the same mistakes and maybe work on issues to get better

I don't know if what she wants she tells me she has feelings for me she's worried her sister will judge her if we try and succeed she's worried all the stuff will happen again I understand that 
I don't know bit I think her acknowledging the need to go to counselling maybe be a step in getting clarity and help

Uptown 
I know it's a big ask but any advise or thoughts would really be appreciated
We have agreed to remain faithful until things are decided one way or the other adding a 3rd party will complicate things and avoid the issues
She's told me not to rush or pressure her and just enjoy the time and see what happens and we don't argue or rehash all the past now we live apart
So I get she's conflicted I just need to not try to fix it and show I'm learning from IC with my actions 

I read one persons constant good actions can change the way others act and can change things overall
Maybe that wishful thinking
I know I've learnt a lot and I'm actually ok with whatever the outcome is

Cheers
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Upanddown said:


> She has agreed to go to counseling together see about things and maybe talk about it with an independent person.


Brad, my experience is that, if the spouse has strong BPD traits, MC will be a total waste of time. Worse than that, a BPDer likely will use it as a stage on which to beat you up, using the therapist as the audience. Teaching a BPDer better communication skills -- which is what MCs are good at -- may simply make the BPDer better at being manipulative. What is needed with BPDers is IC to address their far more serious underlying issues -- teaching them how to self sooth, how to better regulate their emotions, how to reduce black-white thinking, and how to intellectually challenge intense feelings instead of accepting them as self-evident "facts." 



> I don't know bit I think her acknowledging the need to go to counseling maybe be a step in getting clarity and help.


It is good that she is willing to attend therapy, if she means "IC" and not "MC." So far, however, she's only agreed to _"counseling *together*"_ and _"*maybe *talk about it with an independent person."_ Even if she eventually agrees to see an IC, it is rare for a BPDer (person with strong traits) to stay in IC therapy long enough to make a real difference. 

Moreover, even in the unlikely event a BPDer remains in therapy -- as my BPDer exW did on a weekly basis for 15 years with 6 different psychologists -- she likely will just play mind games with the therapist instead of doing the hard work necessary to learn how to manage her emotions. My exW, for example, did not get better.

While a BPDer spouse is in IC, what you're up against is the very difficult task of determining whether she is making any real, lasting improvements. The reason this is so difficult to do is that a BPDer typically will be seen to dramatically improve every 6 to 8 weeks-- like the smokers who are always quitting and throwing away their packs every two months. With nearly all high functioning BPDers, what you're really seeing is one more upswing on the endless roller coaster ride that has just as many downswings as upswings.



> I read one persons constant good actions can change the way others act and can change things overall. Maybe that wishful thinking.


I'm afraid it's wishful thinking. If your W is a BPDer as you suspect, your performing _"constant good actions"_ will not change your parent/child relationship into a husband/wife relationship. It will not give emotional maturity to a spouse having the emotional development of a four year old. It will not teach an untrusting spouse how to trust. And it will not free you from the predicament of triggering her engulfment fear when you draw close to her and triggering her abandonment fear when you draw away to give her breathing room. Those are problems that only SHE is able to fix and, if she is a BPDer, it is very unlikely she will choose to do so.


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