# Interesting question - Would love feedback



## twotimeloser (Feb 13, 2011)

So, I am 2 years past D day, happy and all... no worries about the past really. But As i read some of these situations, something crossed my mind...

If your spouse would have just come to and said " I think we are different, we need to get a divorce" - Do you think you would fight as hard to save your marriage? Or did the shock and awe of an affair push you into a more protective mode in regards to your marriage?

I dont know why, but I have a wierd feeling that if my wife would have asked for a divorce, I wouldnt have looked into our problems as much. I will never really know. Maybe the we start to ask ourselves "what is wrong with me?" when we get betrayed.. Maybe it is because we think " I ain't going out like that" What do you all think?

Interesting topic for discussion, i thought. 

Input?


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## Gfxbss (Dec 24, 2010)

Well, not completely what you are asking, my my story does have something that is similar to what you are asking. 

My significant other left me. A day later, she took me back(yeah, I get that it was quick). That being said, at that point I still didn't "get" it. After we got back together that is when her EA started. 

A couple of weeks later, she left me again. The night she left me is the night she had the PA(considering we had only been apart 4 hours, yeah, I consider it cheating). 

Again, we got back together(I didn't know about the PA, nor the extent of the EA).

After we got back together the second time, I "got it" a little more. 

That being said, it wasn't 'till after discovery that I really started to try and fight for our relationship.

HTH,

Gfx


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## DanF (Sep 27, 2010)

On D day, both of us were involved in EA/PAs. Both of our initial reactions were divorce, but common sense took over and we figured it out.


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## blownaway (Dec 11, 2010)

I can only speak from personal experience, but in my sitution, I fought hard for the relationship before I knew he was with someone else. None of it made any sense to me, his wanting to just leave after 15 years and with two little kids. I thought there had to be something seriously wrong like depression. He even blamed a lot of the issues - what little issues he explained - on me. After I found out the real reason, which was after we separated, I stopped the fight. As my IC says, you can't compete with fantasy. He was and still is in a serious fantasy fog.

Anyway, I guess the real question is whether I would have fought so hard had his reasons for wanting to leave made sense to me. Had he actually come to me with honesty and truth. I really don't know, but I have to think yes, I would have fought. 

I have to think that if one person goes to the other and says that he/she is just not happy at all and that he/she doesn't believe it will ever work, that other spouse is well aware. It likely is a toxic situation or a situation where there is lots of fighting and insulting and just obvious unhappiness. I guess the warning sign of an A is that if one person goes to the other and says he/she wants out, but the reasons just don't make sense.


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## Bigwayneo (Jan 22, 2011)

Well.... Thankfully I do not need to "fight" right now. The only fight I have, (but addressed last night head on) is her getting help, and telling her we need to start looking ahead into the future and getting more active in fixing/working on what happened. I got lucky that she snapped out of the fog early, and that once I found out she stopped the affair. (I gave the OM the NC letter myself, and had one finally talk to him about leaving my family alone) 

But to answer your question, I would probably have fought harder I think. At least in the short run. In fact she asked for one before I found out. I told her I would be willing to see a MC and all that. So we started working on things and it was looking up, then I found out. Then I found out threw the awesome power of trickle truth that even after we wanted to fix our marriage she "sexted" him once during this time too. To be honesty, the sexting hurts more then the PA due to the fact we were working on things. But that is why she needs help. Thanks to her childhood (parents cheated or divorced on every marriage or relationship they have had, (and thats a lot)) her morale compass is ****ed to all hell.


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## twotimeloser (Feb 13, 2011)

Bigwayneo said:


> . Thanks to her childhood (parents cheated or divorced on every marriage or relationship they have had, (and thats a lot)) her morale compass is ****ed to all hell.


This could be an entire thread...

I firmly believe that there are two kinds of people when it comes to a behavior. Those who are environmental people, and those who are Personal responsibility people.

Environmental people are a real problem in my opinion. If someone is environmental they believe that there environment dictates their behavior... Kind of like the quote above. The plus side to being an environmental person is that they are completely innocent of everything all the time. The downside is that they never get credit for anything... 

If little johnny fails in school, its because of bad teachers, a rough home life or his socioeconomic conditions. If he does well, then his parents must have raised him right, and his school must be exceptional...

Personal responsibility people are the exact opposite. If johnny fails in school, then it because he didn't study hard enough he didn't do the work or he isn't focusing on his education. If he does well then it was because he put out the effort, he focused on the right things and johnny is the reason his grades are good.

The same goes for an affair... Environmental people will make all kinds of excuses... "you treated me badly" or "you made feel unloved" or "the liquor made me do it"

I am sorry to say, but that is bull crap. Karl Marx believed that environment dictates behavior and frankly that is nothing but a cop out. We are responsible for everything that happens in our lives and to some extent even an affair can be blamed on our poor choices. This is why getting control of your own state of mind feels so good, because you take responsibility for your emotional state and feel empowered again. 

TO address this quote directly.. "Thanks to her childhood (parents cheated or divorced on every marriage or relationship they have had, (and thats a lot)) her morale compass is ****ed to all hell."

My mother left my father for another man... My father remarried and left his second wife for another woman, he then had an affair with another woman who he married later.. that woman cheated on him... they divorced. And yet somehow, I managed to be my own person, and become an upstanding man who has never cheated. Perhaps that is because i am responsible for my own actions. 

It is possible to wake up from the false reality of "environmentalism" and become a personal responsibility person. Once people do that, they will find that their moral compass is a bit stronger. 

I am responsible for everything good in my life, and everything bad. I am responsible for making my own choices and those choices will result in an outcome I am responsible for. I cannot change other people, but I sure can change me.


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## Simon Phoenix (Aug 9, 2010)

I can see where a lot of you are coming from. In my situation, she hooked up with a former flame and, from what I saw in her e-mail, kept a picture of him; that is, until I deleted it. I guess that's why I've had such a hard time coping with this. Despite almost destroying our marriage and all, I get the feeling that she doesn't regret having the fling one bit. She don't want to go out and do any of the things she told the counselor that I was so unwilling to do before. This goes double for the bedroom, where she's more willing to just lay on the mattress in Morgue-sex mode than before. I get the feeling that the reason she's acting like that is because now that she had something she 'missed' for so long and can no longer have, she has to 'settle' for an imitation (me) of the real thing (him). How do you move on from that point where the DS still secretly thinks of the OM while looking at the LS like some sorry consolation prize from some game show?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## notreadytoquit (Jan 11, 2010)

Absolutely I would have fought for my marriage. Like blownaway said some things did not make sense until I found out about the affair. But depsite all that, after he told me that "I was emotionally draining him, and he was unhappy), I am the one that initiated marriage counselling, heck I even went to have my hormones checked. And what did he do? He lied in my face when I asked if there was someone else, he continued with his deceit and lies, in the mean time collecting info on divorce and he went to few individual MC session just so he can say tomorrow to the world: Yeah I tried.

And now that we are divorced he goes around to tell people how our marriage "did not work for years". Of course he does not mention the affair and the woman he is with now(minor detail)

Despite all this I still miss him but I am probably missing something that does not exists at all.


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## Forsaken (Feb 14, 2011)

twotime, I do agree with what you have said, though I believe this ties in with the whole nature vs. nurture debate, correct? I feel both sides play a role in the actions of a human, though when it comes down to it, it is the person that makes the decision to follow through with an action.

Some times I wonder if people even really think about the reaction effect.


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

twotimeloser said:


> If your spouse would have just come to and said " I think we are different, we need to get a divorce" - Do you think you would fight as hard to save your marriage? Or did the shock and awe of an affair push you into a more protective mode in regards to your marriage?


Yes - I think I went into protective mode to preserve my marriage and my family. An affair is like getting sucker punched in the gut. You're hurt, winded, and confused. Instinct is to come up swinging.

Had there been some rational discussion with my wife saying she truly thought she might be happier apart - I might have been able to process that and may have peacefully agreed on a trial separation.


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## Bigwayneo (Jan 22, 2011)

twotimeloser said:


> This could be an entire thread...
> 
> I firmly believe that there are two kinds of people when it comes to a behavior. Those who are environmental people, and those who are Personal responsibility people.
> 
> ...


I am 50/50 on this argument. Sure people can become there own person. In fact my wife said she did not think her parents had any impact on her. I do not think environmentalism is total bull, but should be studied a lot more then it has. I find it no coincidence that she (like other people) followed there parents path down to a T. 

I am not saying she is not her own person, I am not saying that she has an excuse because of such, I am not saying because of this I am going to take her back or even let her ever use it. hell I did not follow my parents even close. BUT, there has to be something to growing up and the adult figures in your life go from woman to woman (or man to man) and hear/listen to them fight all the time and hear about them cheating or just giving up on relationships all the time. She said she knew it was wrong, then I asked why did you do it again? why did you sext him? why did you flirt with him? she said she didn't know and it was a big mistake, and she was being a dumb *****...It is out of character for her... so take that for what it is I guess. I just think it is something her and her councilor need to look into while we look to the future. I do not want to jump with 3 feet in to in 3 years have it happen again all because we did not explore all routes.


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## Forsaken (Feb 14, 2011)

Also in my situation, seeing as how my wife and I are both really young and we have no children and we don't really have any assets such as a house or a new car, had she said she wanted a divorce I would have just gone with it. I love her to death, she is the love of my life, but if thats what she wanted then there probably would have been no slavaging our relationship/marriage. 

It seems that once someone has their mind set on something, its hard to convince them not to follow through with it. Considering how hard it must be to ask for a D, I'm sure they put a lot of thought into it and decided thats what they really want to do, so I don't see how you can really sway their opinion. Even if you could convince them that you should stay together and work it out, could you bare with the thought everyday that they really just don't want to do it anymore?


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## Bigwayneo (Jan 22, 2011)

Not to mention, there is a reason this is still in huge debate world wide. I think there is more to it then being a "cop" out. But I do think (and most would agree) that nature is not 100%, but neither is nurture. It's kind of like gangs. Some (very few) ex-gang members rise to become GREAT people, but most don't, its what they were raised in. Sure they all could be great people... but as animals/humans, we do what we know. I know how to FPS and RPG games, so I don't play racing games. But as you stated this could be a whole other thread.


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

twotimeloser said:


> This could be an entire thread...
> 
> I firmly believe that there are two kinds of people when it comes to a behavior. Those who are environmental people, and those who are Personal responsibility people.
> 
> ...


Just read this a bit closer. I hope you get proper credit for finally putting the Nature v. Nurture argument to bed.

I believe environment and circumstance are a factor for most people.

Money doesn't buy happiness - but most happy people I know have enough that they know where their next meal will come from.

We do - as children - look to our parents first and foremost as role models. We learn much more from what they do (cheat, drink, smoke) than what they tell us (don't cheat or lie, drinking is bad, smoking is bad).

Sounds like you are self-aware enough to have avoided the normal traps. But not everyone is able to take a close look at their self and really openly evaluate their lives.

So - on one hand - kudos to you for being responsible. On the other hand - don't be so confident that you've figured this whole "life" thing out already. You'd be the first...


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## Bigwayneo (Jan 22, 2011)

:iagree::iagree:

Dont get me wrong Twotime, ALOT of your advice is welcome and awesome.


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

Bigwayneo said:


> Thanks to her childhood (parents cheated or divorced on every marriage or relationship they have had, (and thats a lot)) her morale compass is ****ed to all hell.


So - is that YOU talking, or is this what SHE says?

I think you said she believes her parents had no influence over her - so it must be you who sees it this way.

Have you tried pointing this out to her - that she's repeating their mistakes?


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## Bigwayneo (Jan 22, 2011)

yep, it kills her to hear it. When she was in the fog she would just ignore it, or get angry. But now she gets depressed and sad thinking about it. I told her she needs to talk to her counselor about it. I told her it NEEDS to be addressed if she really wants us to move forward, and heal. I am going to bring it up one more time before her next session and hope she asks him/bring sit up.


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## twotimeloser (Feb 13, 2011)

Bigwayneo said:


> :iagree::iagree:
> 
> Dont get me wrong Twotime, ALOT of your advice is welcome and awesome.


 Hey, Thats all good... I recognize the existance of people who allow environment to dictate their actions. Heck, there are days where i wish I was that way. LOL... 

In fact, if there were not people who allowed environment to dictate their actions, there would be no people accepting personal responsibility. Someone has to take the blame, right? And we can't just just blame society for everything. 

My point, really was that when i see something that says " my parents influenced me" I just shake my head and wonder... did they tie you to the bed and spread your legs too? I am not looking for a world where the environment does not exist, I am just looking for a world where people start saying " I screwed up" A little self analysis goes a long way.

I do not have the answers to life... Heck, all i know is that Life is what happens whenever I seem to plan something. LOL

But I can say that this: We cannot depend on others to make us happy. We cannot blame others for our misdeeds. We cannot expect our environment to change... Not until we step up and take responsibility and control of our own lives.

It is never a question of ability, only a question of motivation... When i say that, i mean that we must motivate ourselves. Not that others must motivate us.

Awesome feedback by the way... great to see so many perspectives. No better way to examine things than to debate them.


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## Forsaken (Feb 14, 2011)

Yea.. I think if the person brings it up during confrontation then they are just using it as an excuse. It's the hidden underlined problems that can be blamed. If they never used it as an excuse but you have heard about it before from the person or another source in the past, then yes I believe it could play a part in the situation.


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## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)

I don't know if Momma was right or if, if it's Lieutenant Dan. I don't know if we each have a destiny, or if we're all just floating around accidental-like on a breeze, but I, I think maybe it's both. Maybe both is happening at the same time.

~Forrest Gump


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

Pit-of-my-stomach said:


> I don't know if Momma was right or if, if it's Lieutenant Dan. I don't know if we each have a destiny, or if we're all just floating around accidental-like on a breeze, but I, I think maybe it's both. Maybe both is happening at the same time.
> 
> ~Forrest Gump


Can't argue with Forrest Gump!


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## Forsaken (Feb 14, 2011)

Pit-of-my-stomach said:


> I don't know if Momma was right or if, if it's Lieutenant Dan. I don't know if we each have a destiny, or if we're all just floating around accidental-like on a breeze, but I, I think maybe it's both. Maybe both is happening at the same time.
> 
> ~Forrest Gump


:iagree: Good ol' Forrest Gump!


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## Bigwayneo (Jan 22, 2011)

I concur 100% with that. I take most of the blame for everything I do. But one is for sure, I am not taking blame for my the **** storm that hit my marriage, haha.


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## Saffron (Mar 7, 2010)

Excellent question TwoTime! Honestly, if my husband had asked for a divorce before I knew of the affair.... the shock alone would've made me want to fight for our marriage. Instead I got the shock of discovery and me saying, "Well that's it then, we're getting divorced." So, he ended up being the one wanting to fight for our marriage. As of right now, we're both working towards the common goal of rebuilding. I know that doesn't answer squat, but there you go!

As far as environmental vs personal responsibiltiy... in the camp of "a little bit of both" I suppose. I think someone who grew up with a stable idealistic homelife can still have a lack of personal responsibility. Seems to be a state of mind. Someone who's achieved some sort of self-realization and emotional growth is probably more capable for taking personal responsibility. But I also think that a person who has most likely lived or experienced many different roles in life may be more capable of personal responsibility. 

For instance, if you were always the dumpee and never the dumper, it may be hard to realize that being the one to break up with someone can hurt too. Especially if you cared or loved that person at one time. Make sense? No? Sorry, our therapist explains it better.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

twotimeloser said:


> ...As i read some of these situations, something crossed my mind...
> 
> If your spouse would have just come to and said " I think we are different, we need to get a divorce" - Do you think you would fight as hard to save your marriage? Or did the shock and awe of an affair push you into a more protective mode in regards to your marriage?


To answer your question, twotimeloser, if my Dear Hubby now came to me and just said that, I would fall over dead of a heart attack because that is SO out of character for him. Thus, if it were to occur right now, as things are now, I would seriously think: "Ummm..WHAT? WTH?" and I would fight to save my marriage!! 

If things were going badly and spiraling downward...if he was not meeting my needs and I was not meeting his...if he had no desire to try to fix it, and I also was acting that way...and then in that state he were to say that, it would be a somewhat different story. My issue would be that although I won't stand there and tolerate adultery, if he just gave up and abandoned me and the marriage, I wouldn't fight him if he filed. I wouldn't file though myself. I'm oddly okay by myself and I'd just live on my own for ... whatever, a couple years. I'm not sure I would "fight" for a marriage he was just dropping out of though--know what I mean? I would probably guess there was some serious stuff going on with him though, and frankly before it ever got "this bad" I'd be talking to him all along. 


Thus for me, one question that's close--on the same vein anyway--is this: 

If your spouse came to you and said: "I am really having a hard time in this marriage. I feel lonely and unappreciated and I just can not live like this. I'm willing to live a little more frugally if it means you could spend more time at home, so can you please see if you can re-arrange your work schedule?" Or "I just can not live with this lack of affection and sex anymore! I am feeling so rejected and hurt, and I need to work out something that considers you but also considers ME!" Do you think you would fight as hard to save your marriage--by making changes? Or did you sort of need the shock and awe of an infidelity to "wake you up" to the issues in your marriage?


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## twotimeloser (Feb 13, 2011)

Affaircare said:


> If things were going badly and spiraling downward...if he was not meeting my needs and I was not meeting his...if he had no desire to try to fix it, and I also was acting that way...and then in that state he were to say that, it would be a somewhat different story.


I guess that depends on the personality of your spouse. A vast amount of people out there are passive aggressive... they are quite until one day.. KABOOM... 

In that situation, they may be far beyond dicussion.

Still thought, as you have many posts.. I would be interested in what you think the specific impact of infidelity has on the effort one puts into saving a marriage. If you have thoughts on that.


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

Affaircare said:


> If your spouse came to you and said: "I am really having a hard time in this marriage. I feel lonely and unappreciated and I just can not live like this. I'm willing to live a little more frugally if it means you could spend more time at home, so can you please see if you can re-arrange your work schedule?" Or "I just can not live with this lack of affection and sex anymore! I am feeling so rejected and hurt, and I need to work out something that considers you but also considers ME!" Do you think you would fight as hard to save your marriage--by making changes? Or did you sort of need the shock and awe of an infidelity to "wake you up" to the issues in your marriage?


Sure would be nice if they were typically that open and honest.

That's a tough question. I know what the RIGHT answer is - but I think that a lot of people need to be really uncomfortable (shock and awe) before they start making serious changes.


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## twotimeloser (Feb 13, 2011)

nice777guy said:


> Sure would be nice if they were typically that open and honest.
> 
> That's a tough question. I know what the RIGHT answer is - but I think that a lot of people need to be really uncomfortable (shock and awe) before they start making serious changes.


You know, I mostly post opinions and try to lean towards objectivity... I do agree with you, in that people need an "Awakening" but an affair is certainly not the path to that awakening. 

I really do believe that cheaters are immoral people. I do not believe in calling an affair a mistake. There is flirting, which is normal behavior, and then there is everything beyond that, all of which requires a choice. There are hundreds of choices that lead to an affair. The second we make excuses for one to cheat, we must apply that excuse to all. My wife cheated, does that mean i get to go out and boink a college hotty now? I bet I could come up with an excuse or 10. 

Yeah, "shock and awe" has a purpose. Letting someone else into your marriage is not the answer though. I am sure you agree with that, I was just making a more specific point.


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