# ultimatum time?



## yesterday (Feb 6, 2009)

I am have been struggling to get my marriage back on track for 10 months now. I won't go into all the details, but many can be found on this site if you search my posts.

I love my wife and I very much want to stay married to her. However, imo we have made zero progress in 4 months of therapy as a couple and continue to end up having the same fight.

I feel we have lost our connection and I need more intimacy in our relationship, such as more "I love yous" more "thank yous" more "I'm sorry for hurting you". In addition my sexual needs have gone unmet. There is no passion, fun or adventure in our sex life and hasn't been for years. I have been patient with her in this regard b/c we were raising 2 young children and she had some medical issues, but these have long since passed. Also, there is a history of sexual abuse (date rape) prior to our relationship.

Other background:
- we have 2 adolescent children
- she is who she is and was happy in our marriage until I said I was not
- since I said I was unhappy with the intimacy (but happy with everything else!) she is convinced that I want out
- she is unwilling to change herself and resents me for asking for my needs to be met
- she thus far has refused to even listen to what I need to be happy in the marriage
- even so, she deems my needs "unrealistic" since according to her, I should be completely happy in the marriage with what I have
- I really want to tell her what I need and am willing to consider making any changes she wants of me, but she doesn't want me to change anything
- I have not told her what I need b/c she says she feels controlled and pressured; my experience is when she feels this way and I tell her what I need, she will either not accomodate me based on principle alone or accomodate me and resent me for it since I asked to her to do something different
- the only thing she says she needs from me is to not be judged, which I said I would try not to do

Our attempts to communicate on these matters usually end up in a yelling match. Recently I have learned to better control my defensive behavior and anger and have been assertive with her. For example, she often tells me what I think, how I feel and what I want. I find this *very* disrepectful and tell her so, and ask her politely to stop. She continues and gets loud when I tell her not to do this anymore and then I get loud back or more recently, seek her agreement that the argument should end.

So, I have not to this point given her any ultimatums, but I am seriously considering one now. We have couples therapy tomorrow and this could be a good place to put it out there.

The ultimatum would be something like:

I need to hear from you that you are willing to work on our marriage and specifically meeting my needs for improved communication, more intimacy and a better sex life. I need an agreement to the specifics of what that path looks like for each of us. I do not expect this to change overnight, but I need evidence that there is more than 1 person working to resolve our relationship issues. If this is not agreeable to you and you are truly saying take me or leave me as I am today, then I need time and space away from you to figure out what my next steps will be.

Any advice would be appreciated.


----------



## JDPreacher (Feb 27, 2009)

Ultimatums are a bad idea and usually get the opposite result...they are not productive and if she is feeling pressured and controlled by talking, this would be a very bad idea.

Why don't you set a mood...candle light dinner, some chiante, and very calmly tell her that you and she both know there are things right and some things that could be better in the marriage. Don't say wrong...just some things that could be better.

Ask her to write down what she thinks is right and what could be better and you do the same...and then compare. Work on a plan together to make the things that could be better...better. And the things that are good...expound on those...try and find a happ medium at the very least.

Blessed Be,
Preacher


----------



## sirch (Jan 8, 2009)

Yesterday, I feel for ya. But do not give an ultimatum right now. If you are thinking you want out then you need to read "the list" that is available at another site, pm me if you want the info.


----------



## snix11 (Sep 25, 2008)

I think the way you've worded your ultimatum is thoughtful and genuine. I see nothing wrong with bringing it up in therapy.


----------



## studlyc (Jun 10, 2009)

I think that would be a good idea. You've been working on the same problem for 10 months. It is time she knew that your serious enough to leave if she isn't willing to make you happy in this realationship. Go for it and good luck!


----------



## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

JDPreacher said:


> Why don't you set a mood...candle light dinner, some chiante, and very calmly tell her that you and she both know there are things right and some things that could be better in the marriage. Don't say wrong...just some things that could be better.
> 
> Ask her to write down what she thinks is right and what could be better and you do the same...and then compare. Work on a plan together to make the things that could be better...better. And the things that are good...expound on those...try and find a happ medium at the very least.
> 
> ...


Preacher, this is great advice if you have at least some basic connection.

But ... and I recognize that yesterday's circumstances although _very_ similar to my own, are still unique ... odds are that _any_ attempt he makes at this point will be perceived by her as manipulation. He could offer a vacation to Hawaii and I'd bet she would assume the only reason he wants to go to Hawaii is to have sex. My wife automatically assumed that I had an ulterior motive, when my ulterior motive was nothing more than trying to be decent.

yesterday, I don't think that you need to make an ultimatum, and it's true, particularly in her case, she will only see it as you once again trying to institute control over her.

What you can do is make plans for you, and your life. It is completely legitimate to point out to the counselor that you feel there has been little to no progress in compromising or finding a happy medium. Based on that, you can state your intentions. What's important is that you know you follow through on your intentions, such as you plan on moving out, or contacting an attorney, or whatever you decide. It is then up to your wife to decide what _she_ wants.
My wife didn't think that I would actually move out. I did.

She wanted to me to compromise on allowing her to still pursue an activity that would involve the guy she was seeing in an effort to reconcile. I wouldn't.

She now blames me for our impending divorce. Conversely, I blame her. There simply is no 'working it out' for us.

I hope that isn't the case for you, but be prepared to acknowledge the circumstances for what they are. If she has shown no investment and resents you - it is unlikely that she will do an about face without drastic action.


----------



## JDPreacher (Feb 27, 2009)

Oh well, if all this is about is sex, then all bets are off because lord knows not getting enough is just about the wife not putting out, there can't be any other reason than the fridgid wench just doesn't want to open up the doors for him

Hell, if all you need is sex, rent someone, find a massage therapist who specializes in happy endings or have a full blown affair with a couple of different people just for some variety.

No, can't be any underlying issues here, it's just about sex and he's not getting enough and it's time for an ultimatum...why not put in the ultimatum that if she doesn't start giving it up whenever you want then you'll be going to soemone else for your release...see if that works.

Sorry, my fault, didn't make any sense to try and find the underlying issues at hand...how could I have been so incorrect. It's just about sex...always is...

Preacher


----------



## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

yesterday said:


> I need to hear from you that you are willing to work on our marriage and specifically meeting my needs for improved communication, more intimacy and a better sex life. I need an agreement to the specifics of what that path looks like for each of us. I do not expect this to change overnight, but I need evidence that there is more than 1 person working to resolve our relationship issues. If this is not agreeable to you and you are truly saying take me or leave me as I am today, then I need time and space away from you to figure out what my next steps will be.


I think this ultimatum is largely a good idea, provided you intend to carry out the "or else". If you are thinking of bluffing, forget it. The main thing this course of action will do is bolster your self-worth. This will also have the affect of making you look more expensive in her eyes.

At some point tenderness will be called for, but at this point, it could well be that firmness is the correct ingredient. even if you lose her in the process, it will leave you feeling more capable of making your way in life. The next person will therefore treat you better.

So much of our gripes about the world are a projection of inner conflicts.


----------



## yesterday (Feb 6, 2009)

JDPreacher said:


> Sorry, my fault, didn't make any sense to try and find the underlying issues at hand...how could I have been so incorrect. It's just about sex...always is...
> 
> Preacher


Preacher,

Saturday morning my wife and I went to the beach by ourselves and sat together on the a blanket on a private spot with the shared goal of trying to talk through our issues.

The small talk was fine, but she became upset and started crying before we even started to talk about our issues. I put my arm around her and asked her what was wrong. She said she hated this whole sitation. I asked what specifically about it? She responded that you want me to be someone I am not. I responded that all I wanted was to feel close to you again, improve our communication and intimacy. She told me I had that already. I asked her nicely to please not tell me what I want, what I have, how I feel, etc. She responded by asking me not to tell her what to do. I backed off in attempt to diffuse her building anger. Now the discussion turns into the same themes we have had been over repeatedly. How I want her to act like we don't have kids, that she "had the sex" previously in our marriage and I should be happy with our sex life since we are (were) having it, my expecations are "unrealistic" and immature, that she feels like she has a 3rd child because I need things from her, and that I obviously want to separate from her. I point out that I stated what i want and that is to be closer to her, not separated from her. She responds "No, that's not what you want." I look her dead in the eye and ask her why do you keep telling me what I want when I asked you not to? Its disresepctful. She goes into full attack mode. I control my angry / defensive feelings and suggest we stop the argument. She agrees. Attempts to follow-up Sunday result in fights. She tells me she is happy to listen to me, but does not want to talk. So I share my feelings and she breaks her self-imposed gag order and attacks me again, tells me what I want, how I feel, etc.

Now onto sex. It is very important to me to have good sex in my realtionship. By this I mean, my partner wants to know what makes me feel great and is responsive to my needs. She used to be this way. She used to initiate sex, look at me during sex, smile. She used to be very open about what she liked / did not like and would try different things with me. Now sex is a predictable exercise (or at least was - we are mutually off sex now). Even our therapist commented that our sex life seems like a list checking exercise.

I have not had a satisfying sex life for 3-4 years, and I only admitted this by being honest with myself a year ago (there is a difference between being comfortable and being happy). I expected sex to be different after marriage and kids but not unsatisfying.

She says she is different now and wants to be loved the way she is and wants sex only once per month. The sex we used to have was in the "lust phase" of our relationship and she is sooo glad that is over.

I have not shared this with her but I have an analogy. When we started off our relationship we were close and shared common values and goals. We both wanted kids. What if after marriage I said, nope, sorry don't want kids. That was just a phase I was in and boy am I glad that's over. Please love me for who I am now.

I value family, connectedness and sensuality equally. These are must haves for me.


----------



## JDPreacher (Feb 27, 2009)

Ugh...what part of write things down is difficult? And by saying what you said about not telling you how to do this and that and whatever else, you set the tone for her to be defensive...and that gets you nowhere.

The analogy isn't anywhere close so it's irrelevant...

Look...she's emotionally fragile, she is probably feeling insecure and you aren't helping matters by telling her she is being disrespectful when she does try and talk to you...that's being manipulative and tyring to get her to acquiese to what you want to hear...

If you two can't sit down and write things down...which is why I said, set the mood a little...then you should probably go to counseling and if she won't go then you should if for nothing else than to learn how to talk to your wife.

I know sex is important in a relationship and satisfying sex and feeling that emotional need and desire...it's a key component to every marriage. But you have to understand, everyone's libido is different so you have to be willing to compromise some...and not just make demands.

You're not connecting right now because she feels pressured and like she is being manipulated as well as feeling like she isn't good enough for you. You need to start by reassuring her that the problems you have aren't anything that can't be overcome by coming to an accord, not by making demands and giving ultimatums.

Don't tell her she is being disrespectful because she is laying things out on the line...so what if they aren't accurate and so what if you feel like she's trying to tell you how you feel or what you want...doesn't matter.

Your marriage is in a very difficult place and she is very fragile right now and you're not helping.

Preacher


----------



## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

yesterday said:


> She says she is different now and wants to be loved the way she is and wants sex only once per month. The sex we used to have was in the "lust phase" of our relationship and she is sooo glad that is over.


At last the truth comes out...
This is female code for: You had too much power over me. She is resentful about something, simple as that. The resentment has built up over some time. All you have to do is pinpoint what it is. It may not even be you that caused it, although that would be unusual.


----------



## yesterday (Feb 6, 2009)

JDPreacher said:


> Ugh...what part of write things down is difficult? And by saying what you said about not telling you how to do this and that and whatever else, you set the tone for her to be defensive...and that gets you nowhere.


Right. I forgot I *am* responsible for my wife's feelings!



JDPreacher said:


> Look...she's emotionally fragile, she is probably feeling insecure and you aren't helping matters by telling her she is being disrespectful when she does try and talk to you...that's being manipulative and tyring to get her to acquiese to what you want to hear...


This is being assertive and standing up for myself when my boundaries are repeatedly violated. I love to talk. I do not enjoy being attacked, belittled, marginalized, etc.



JDPreacher said:


> If you two can't sit down and write things down...which is why I said, set the mood a little...then you should probably go to counseling and if she won't go then you should if for nothing else than to learn how to talk to your wife.


Been in counseling for 4 months now over this episode and for a year before we got married where we agreed guidelines for conflicy resolution. Those are out the window right now because they are useless if only 1 person follows them.



JDPreacher said:


> I know sex is important in a relationship and satisfying sex and feeling that emotional need and desire...it's a key component to every marriage. But you have to understand, everyone's libido is different so you have to be willing to compromise some...and not just make demands.


More than happy to compromise. Said so in therapy. It's not about frequency for me but the level of connectedness. Wife's response...ready for this? "It is to a frequency thing for you!" Therapist called her out on this pointing out that she just shut down the conversation. Wife agreed, said it was wrong of her and apologized in session. However, that has not carried over to real life yet.



JDPreacher said:


> You're not connecting right now because she feels pressured and like she is being manipulated as well as feeling like she isn't good enough for you. You need to start by reassuring her that the problems you have aren't anything that can't be overcome by coming to an accord, not by making demands and giving ultimatums.


Yes. I will rethnk my ultimatum plan. I am trying not to be demanding, rather assertive and clear.



JDPreacher said:


> Don't tell her she is being disrespectful because she is laying things out on the line...so what if they aren't accurate and so what if you feel like she's trying to tell you how you feel or what you want...doesn't matter.
> 
> Your marriage is in a very difficult place and she is very fragile right now and you're not helping.


Attention all of those suffering from spousal abuse. Don't stand up for yourself! Your spouse is just trying to "lay it on the line". So what if it hurts? Its all about the preserving the marriage. Preserving self is not as important!

Preacher...really?


----------



## yesterday (Feb 6, 2009)

MarkTwain said:


> At last the truth comes out...
> This is female code for: You had too much power over me. She is resentful about something, simple as that. The resentment has built up over some time. All you have to do is pinpoint what it is. It may not even be you that caused it, although that would be unusual.


If its not another guy, its gotta be resentment (or mental illness).

We have not been able to resolve conflict in our relationship, so I agree resentment is likely.

I've expressed this to her. So far, no response.


----------



## JDPreacher (Feb 27, 2009)

Well, since you have all the answers, what do you need us for?

Good luck to you in this (soon to be over) relationship and those that follow.

Preacher


----------



## swedish (Mar 6, 2008)

To me it sounds as though she feels she is doing more than enough to be a good wife and mother and it's possible she resents that you feel otherwise. She probably also feels that if she doesn't give more exciting and frequent sex, that you will eventually leave and since she is not there (as far as libido, etc.) that she is trapped in a no win situation. Telling me how I feel and what I think would annoy me to, but I think she is cluing you in as to how she's feeling when she does this. It really sounds like she feels you are throwing a wrench in her family life which she is content with.

I know for many women feeling emotionally close is key into wanting to have sex so if she's feeling she's not good enough as your wife, she will likely only pull away even further and may take any out of the ordinary sweet gestures as your way of trying to get sex, vs. you just doing something sweet for her.

Since she says she was content prior to you mentioning your issues, I would not issue an ultimatum...I think that will just reinforce what she is thinking...give me what I want or I'm gone. If you really want to stay married and just become closer, you might have better luck with spending time with her, dating, etc. but not talk about your issues...rather just talk about goals, dreams, kids, the positive things in your life together. Showing her you love her, your family may reignite that spark in her eye when she looks at you.


----------



## yesterday (Feb 6, 2009)

JDPreacher said:


> Well, since you have all the answers, what do you need us for?
> 
> Good luck to you in this (soon to be over) relationship and those that follow.
> 
> Preacher


My mistake. I thought this was a discussion board. I thought you may be interested in helping me and as such, receptive to my clarifying input and questions.

You seem to have a message to deliver. Sorry I did not hear it.

"take what you need and leave the rest..."
R. Robertson


----------



## swedish (Mar 6, 2008)

oh, and if she continues to tell you what you are thinking and how you feel, I think I would need to come up with a canned response like 'And, you want to make mad, passionate love to me right now.' Maybe she will get what she is doing (maybe even laugh) and it won't go to a bad place.


----------



## recent_cloud (Apr 18, 2009)

when your wife disagrees with you about your feelings she's trying to tell you how she sees the world, although she does lack certain communcation skills.

it's natural for you to see her rejoinders as attacks because they are.

but i don't think she means them that way.

your counselor said it best, her remarks shut down the conversation.

that doesn't mean she doesn't have a valid point, it means she's expressing it in an unhelpful way.

you're not listening to one another, and now the most common miscommunicated points have become hot buttons.

your 'ultimatum' is ill advised because you're not ready to follow through yet, and at this point no matter what you say to her she's not going to hear it and her response is going to shut you down.

maybe the best thing right now is to limit the serious conversation to counseling sessions.

and as for your wife's resentment: she resents that you see her as an inadequate wife.


----------



## sirch (Jan 8, 2009)

hey yesterday you have mail. let me know if it helps


----------



## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

recent_cloud said:


> when your wife disagrees with you about your feelings she's trying to tell you how she sees the world, although she does lack certain communcation skills.
> 
> it's natural for you to see her rejoinders as attacks because they are.
> 
> ...


:iagree: This.

When she is 'telling you what you think', listen to what she says. Because it is her way (maybe not ideal way..but her way) of telling you what she is hearing, and how she is interpreting it. Don't let it derail you. Instead, try a different tack of explaining yourself.


----------



## yesterday (Feb 6, 2009)

recent_cloud said:


> when your wife disagrees with you about your feelings she's trying to tell you how she sees the world, although she does lack certain communcation skills.
> 
> it's natural for you to see her rejoinders as attacks because they are.
> 
> ...


Thank you, RC and Swedish. These posts have really helped me think about the situation differently. We have been only talking about serious issues in counseling...45 minutes every 1-2 weeks. This weekend's out of session talking was therapist prescribed.

Your last comment has me stuck. I think the world of my wife and she is more than adequate, and I tell her / show her frequently. But you are probably right, even so I make her feel inadequate. So, is the way forward to let the floggings continue until she feels adequate?

I'm not trying to sound like an a**hole here, I just really have no clue what to do.


----------



## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

recent_cloud said:


> and as for your wife's resentment: she resents that you see her as an inadequate wife.


This is exactly where my wife and I ended up. And despite my feeling horrible about it - I do see her as inadequate. I _would_ require drastic changes on her part to want to work on the marriage. This is what creates the impasse.
One partner wanting the other to accept something they clearly don't want to accept, and the inability to compromise.


----------



## dcrim (Oct 1, 2008)

If it's gotten to the point of ultimatum over sex...dump her! Leave now...don't go through the drama. Leave. Find a FWB!

The threat will wake her up. Then you can work towards compatibility. Why did you marry her in the first place?


----------



## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

swedish said:


> If you really want to stay married and just become closer, you might have better luck with spending time with her, dating, etc.


Swedish...

I'm sure this is good stuff except that when a relationship gets to this state, the woman does not want any more attention from the male. Above all she does not want any more closeness. It's the dreaded "I need space". And the only solution for that is to give them more space than they are asking for.

As for the reasons... I still would not rule out an EA or PA. This thread has every mark of a woman who does not want to be unfaithful to her _new _lover.


----------



## swedish (Mar 6, 2008)

MT ~ I was not thinking in this direction at all reading what yesterday has posted. I have felt in his wife's position before, content with the current relationship but pressure that it wasn't enough for him. There was absolutely no other man involved. Just the feeling of working full time, raising 3 kids (not feeling much like a sexy wife...just trying to get through each day) doing the best that I could yet it wasn't enough. I didn't need space, I needed to be loved and appreciated for who I am, not who he wants me to be...Part of it for me is understanding more about how he feels about sex within our marriage and how important that is...it takes away the feeling of 'pressure' once I decided to focus on what is important to keep my H happy and that in turn changes how I view everything...it's not 'what more do you want from me' but 'cool, we are closer than ever and having some fun'


----------



## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

swedish-

Got you! But it was the shock of your husband straying that caused you to take stock, was it not? Besides which, I doubt you would have used such manipulative behaviour as she appears to be doing - such as telling him how he feels - finishing his sentences etc. Tell me it isn't true 

So I think what I'm saying is that the shock of an ultimatum from him may be better than the shock of an affair from him - and lets face it, if things don't improve that could be just round the corner.


----------



## swedish (Mar 6, 2008)

I may have used this one once or twice 'And, you want to make mad, passionate love to me right now' 

And yes, that is what triggered us both to have some serious talks about what we were missing within our marriage (we both had things to say there)...probably a big turning point was when he said 'maybe you need to learn more about men' that got me...I started reading some books...'It's A Guy Thing' by Deida opened my eyes...but I also found it on my own read it with an open mind...it would be easy for a woman to think 'not all men are like this, etc' if their husband asks them to read it.

That's where I struggle with advice for you, yesterday, because I don't know your wife to know if suggesting something will make things better or worse.

I think from what she's said to you so far, that reassurance you aren't going anywhere is important at this point. Even in my situation, I did not want my H to stay in a marriage where he was unhappy or feeling there was something better out there...that wouldn't work for me either. He did reassure me that was not the case and we both try to keep the fun in our every day lives.


----------



## Sandy55 (Jun 3, 2009)

An ultimatum gets things off "dead center" for good or bad, it does it.

A woman can hand a husband: "I am drifting toward this man because you are not emotionally available, or sexually available to me...what are YOU going to do to help YOUR HALF of this mess?" (Unless the request is just so totally out of line it is laughable - and sex three times a week is not too much to ask, head once a week is not too much for a guy to ask...)

AND a man can hand a WIFE the ultimatum: "Once a month is going to drive me crazy (unless she is postpartum, sick, surgery, depression, etc) as I am hot for you, and love making love to you, so I am ASKING for this, or balancing the checkbook before you shop....or whatever..." Unless the request is so far out of line (sex with two goats...) that it is laughable...).

Compromise as to what is "acceptable" to keep the marriage flowing in an ONWARD direction is good, but a minimum requirement for a partner to meet seems logical for a stable and healthy, happy relationship.

Now if a spouse is WARNED of the drift...and does not take action to discuss, correct, compromise or CHANGE something to make it better and stop the drift...then the spouse needs to accept the consequence of ignoring a sane, long term request.

And the person handing out the ultimatum must be prepared to follow through.


----------



## recent_cloud (Apr 18, 2009)

yesterday said:


> Your last comment has me stuck. I think the world of my wife and she is more than adequate, and I tell her / show her frequently. But you are probably right, even so I make her feel inadequate. So, is the way forward to let the floggings continue until she feels adequate?
> 
> I'm not trying to sound like an a**hole here, I just really have no clue what to do.


i believe and understand you think the world of your wife and find her more than adequate. (it'd be nice if you found her exceptionally and breathtakingly amazing but i think maybe you do, it just didn't occur to you to say so here)

but she doesn't hear it. 

correct or not, she hears criticism.

and your hear her response, correct or not, as 'floggings'.

and so here you both are. again.

i'm not sure if you're both right fighters or just intense people who form world views quickly and are offended or angered by any preceived assault on your world view, but either way you need to confine serious discussion to the next visit to the counselors office.

i understand why your counselor wanted to see how well you two could communicate outside the office at this point in your journey; you'll report back that it didn't go so well and your counselor will take it from there.

the good news is once this communication logjam is cleared you and your wife will start to really communicate with one another, thus beginning a new chapter in your marriage.

good for you, searching for answers and solutions bodes well.


----------



## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

swedish said:


> probably a big turning point was when he said 'maybe you need to learn more about men' that got me...I started reading some books...


Well that hit the nail on the head! Men in this situation feel that the woman is not interested in how men tick, or finding out how they tick. And they are certainly not interested in how their particular man ticks. So without that interest there, it is difficult to get things started. An ultimatum though in some ways a low-down dirty trick, can be an honest way of saying "look, if you don't take an interest, I will scout around for someone who will". And is the issuer intends to follow through, then it's not manipulation, it's simply a warning of what will follow.

Some people don't bother with ultimatums. Perhaps they are too cowardly, or perhaps they don't feel it will help). They just leave or cheat, and let their actions do the talking.

*However...* In another forum, (that shall remain nameless) another woman said that it is evil to give an ultimatum over sex. She said one should just leave. At first I thought she was over-reacting, but I can see her point now.

However, if I put myself in the woman's position here.. and ask myself, which would I rather: an abrupt departure, or a warning first that departure was imminent? I think I would want the warning.

I also think the OP worded the ultimatum well. He was not insisting on an instantaneous quadrupling of intimacy, just the agreement to work on it.


----------



## swedish (Mar 6, 2008)

MarkTwain said:


> I also think the OP worded the ultimatum well. He was not insisting on an instantaneous quadrupling of intimacy, just the agreement to work on it.


Good point. Ultimately, a marriage is between two people, so it's not okay if only one of the two are happy. I think that's where the impass is...she believes if she perceives the marriage as fine,then he should too and anything else is him expecting too much...she is not seeing things from his point of view.


----------



## yesterday (Feb 6, 2009)

Thanks for the good discussion and advice. I will not issue an ultimatum of any kind today in therapy. Instead, I will try to keep the conversation focused simply on what we can do to move forward, without compromising my true self. And I will try not to take comments too personally and become offended.

And for clarification, for me, it is not about just sex. It is about feeling close to my spouse and having a healthy relationship, of which sex is a part, of course. For example, I would be happy with more words of affirmation and non-sexual physical touching and less sex, say weekly, as long as my W was making efforts to meet my sexual needs. Again, frequency of sex is not the primary sex-issue, its the emotional connection aspect.

I'll post an update after therapy today.


----------



## humpty dumpty (Nov 26, 2008)

I hate ultimatums !! but if its the only way foward for you then i guess thats the steps you need to take . but glad you have choosen to go to therpy  hope you get to sort out both your needs


----------



## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

swedish said:


> Good point. Ultimately, a marriage is between two people, so it's not okay if only one of the two are happy. I think that's where the impass is...she believes if she perceives the marriage as fine,then he should too and anything else is him expecting too much...she is not seeing things from his point of view.


Wow Swedish! I'm so glad we're back on the same page... for a minute I thought I was going to have to issue an *ultimatum*


----------



## swedish (Mar 6, 2008)

yesterday said:


> And for clarification, for me, it is not about just sex. It is about feeling close to my spouse and having a healthy relationship, of which sex is a part, of course. For example, I would be happy with more words of affirmation and non-sexual physical touching and less sex, say weekly, as long as my W was making efforts to meet my sexual needs. Again, frequency of sex is not the primary sex-issue, its the emotional connection aspect.


Have you ever read up on Tantric sex? It is interesting in that the focus is more on closeness than sex. In fact, sex isn't always part of the picture. When I read up on it, I thought this sounded like a good thing for women...feeling connected before any actual sex takes place. You may find something here that you can work into your marriage.


----------



## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

yesterday said:


> And for clarification, for me, it is not about just sex. It is about feeling close to my spouse and having a healthy relationship, of which sex is a part, of course. For example, I would be happy with more words of affirmation and non-sexual physical touching and less sex, say weekly, as long as my W was making efforts to meet my sexual needs. Again, frequency of sex is not the primary sex-issue, its the emotional connection aspect.


Always been my position as well. It isn't about getting 'laid'. What became problematic for us was _her_ perception that any form of intimacy; hand-holding, cuddling, kissing, hugging, was little more than a pretext for sex. I saw it as a viewpoint that could only set us up to fail. And it did.

Yesterday, it certainly seems like you have your head around the scope of the issue and what you want.

Did anything ever come of your wifes EA? Have those circumstances been resolved or do you feel that it is still part of your issues?


----------



## yesterday (Feb 6, 2009)

Deejo said:


> Did anything ever come of your wifes EA? Have those circumstances been resolved or do you feel that it is still part of your issues?


"EA" update-

I have choosen to forgive her for lying to me about the relationship, frequency and type of communication used.

She would not however admit to an EA.

It is not important to me that she accept this label, rather that we work on any issues that she was solving thru this other man.

So we agreed:

I accept her apology and hear her say it was not an EA.

I forgive her and she hears me say I don't not know for sure if it was an EA.

And she is to tell me if he attempts to contact her and she will not contact him as she "doesn't want to talk to that man anymore."

As an aside, I experienced an interesting therapy clash over this issue. Our couples therapist definition of EA hinges on how one defines secrecy. Her individual therapist advised that my wife could keep her dealings with her Ex-boyfriend secret from me and it is not necessarily an EA. Ill advised yes because she is making decisions for me, but EA not necessarily. Since the couples therapist is vested in keeping us together (what we told her we want), she subsequently avoided defining EA and focused on trying to get us past this event.

Of course, this may change if new info presents itself, but I have put it behind me and am not looking for more evidence.


----------



## yesterday (Feb 6, 2009)

swedish said:


> Have you ever read up on Tantric sex? It is interesting in that the focus is more on closeness than sex. In fact, sex isn't always part of the picture. When I read up on it, I thought this sounded like a good thing for women...feeling connected before any actual sex takes place. You may find something here that you can work into your marriage.


Thanks! Will look into this further.


----------



## yesterday (Feb 6, 2009)

update:

short session ended on a high note for me.

as usual, we both fell into "damage tallying mode" early in the session. therapist probed for details and we obliged but it was not pretty.

I recounted specific events of feeling disrespected beyond recent arguments. W outright denied they happened this way. Therapist was highly skeptical of her account and told her so. Therapist also pointed out that my W needs to realize the affect of her language and the words she uses. W also brought up many valid points detailing my unacceptable responses.

We then received our first lecture.

Topics included 1) therapist is frustrated with us 2) we are both acting like preschool aged children 3) we will move forward only when each of us becomes truly aware of our individual selves and chooses to be aware (instead of reactive) and stops trying to find ourselves in each other

And I'm cool with all that.


----------



## jdo15 (Jun 23, 2009)

I read an interesting article recently that talks about the current problems in a lot of marriages- lack of passion and sex. Most couples/mariages these days are dual income and with children and their activities a couples romantic time falls to the back of the line. An issue of Parents magazine (May 09) recently had an article talking about the importance of intimacy in a marriage. There was also a great article in a local newspaper that talked about the same thing Entrepreneurs tapping market for romance-reviving products, workshops - The Boston Globe
A full,happy, and satisfying marriage has many components and when one of them is missing it creates a bad balance. I've heard many say a good marriage takes work. I would disagree. I would instead say a good marriage like anything else requires attention. We all work, that's no fun. Giving attention to our children, our spouses, our mental and physical well being should be fun and rewarding.


----------



## captainmeowtron (Jun 29, 2009)

Dude, she got what she wanted from you, and now she sees no reason to give you what you want. It's simple. You are right for feeling angry. An ultimatum is not always a bad thing, but allow me to suggest something more specific. My couples counselor suggests listing three specific things that you want your spouse to do, and allowing them to pick which one they want to do. I recommend that you name something more specific, like ask her to do "an appreciation" once per day, in which she tells you something that she likes about you or says thank you for something. 
It's measurable and specific. Too often people claim they are "making progress" and it's vague and bull****-like.
P.S. Do not buy any of this crap about how you just need to light candles, be romantic, listen to her more. She's trying to have a power struggle with you over sex, and it's manipulative and unacceptable.


----------



## valium (Sep 22, 2008)

I can understand where where she is coming from. I do not have exactly the same issue but my H keeps asking me to where short short skirts etc and stocking when the kids are around and I will not do it. 

Anyway back to you. Why not try and do something nice for her and maybe that way she will be nicer with you. It does work i tried it at the weekend with my H and we had a few slight arguements but nothing major and overall had a good weekend. 

Can you maybe not take her away for a night, out to dinner and to a hotel or something just a change of scenery. Or for a change why not let her deal with the kids and put them to bed and whilst she is doing this you can make her a nice meal - even if it is a ready made nice one that just needs heated up with the glass of wine and a nice film to watch. Sometimes it just needs one person to start being nice to the other for the other to be the same back. Say thank you to her when she does something for you even if it is just making you a cup of tea in the morning.


----------

