# Lost's Story/Journal



## lostLove77

Lost the best thing in my life

Here is my story, i want to begin a journal to help me through this process.

Separated with my wife the beginning of this year. Married 9 years and together for 14. We have two daughters, 6 & 3. 

When we met we lived about an hour and half away from each other, so we mostly saw each other on weekends. About 6 mnths into the relationship I was offered a position in the rocky mountains. So i moved from the east coast and asked if she wanted to come along. She came and finished her masters degree while living with me. After 2 1/2 years i purposed and we moved back to the east coast to get married/start a family. We moved close to where i could transfer my job. We bought a house, our first daughter was born. Things were going very well.

After our second was born I believe we started to drift. We were both isolated a bit, her family and friends were a couple of hours away and mine were not much closer, our time was dedicated to our jobs and our daughters. A while ago she started to tell me that she was feeling sad. She basically was trying to tell me that I was emotionally unavailable. She had even asked me to go see a counselor, not because of anything that I did (she was trying to be delicate with me), but that something was wrong. I was prideful and didn't want to go. We would have long conversations where she was voicing her pain but I couldn't understand it or voice my own emotions. I didn't know how to get them out.

This continued for a while until we purchased a summer home where I thought we could afford it. She wanted to look in another location but I thought i wasn't feasible financially. This broke it. She finally put her foot down and said we had to move closer to her job and family. I finally began to see how much i had controlled things and agreed. We put our home on the market and it sold quickly so we had to find something to purchase. We also decided to see and marriage counselor. I began to see how I had not been open to her and took her for granted and took advantage of her giving personality. I was not hearing her. We were talking a lot more now but the damage was done.

We only went to two sessions tho and she had enough. Her pain was too much and she wanted to separate. She purchased a small home and I'm currently living at the vacation property a long way from anything I've known. I'm working remotely and pretty much isolated.

My job is still relatively close to her and on fridays i drive up to work in the office and she drops our daughters off so I can take them for the weekend. But on Sundays i drive up to her place to take the girls home and actually stay overnight so I can take them to school on monday morning and then work at the office before driving home.

We are on very good terms, we talk & text a lot. She says I'm her most important person. She has even said that "You're my everything". She just has to make herself happy and does not want a relationship. She just wants to be single. 

I understand this from our history, I just love her so. I don't know how to deal with the loss. Ii am trying to do more things for myself. Starting to go to the gym, read and reflect but I can't shake my shame and regret over my own actions.


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## Frostflower

Hi Lost and welcome. Are you seeing a counsellor to help you through this?

Right now, you wife has the best of two worlds. She has the single life she desired, but she also has ‘her everything’. She says she doesn’t want a relationship, but that is exactly what she has. She is not getting a true picture of what life without you would be like. If you keep this up, you will not move in any direction and you run the risk of hearing her one day say that she wants a divorce and/or has met someone else. And it will be a huge shock for you. Hard as it is, you need to start detaching. Stop talking and texting unless it has to do with the kids. Stop staying overnight. Go to a hotel and pick the kids up again in the morning.

I know this sounds harsh, but you need to give her what she thinks she needs.

I suggest you read The 180. You can search this site for it or just google it. It is a series of strategies that will help you to grow stronger so that you can face whatever comes your way.


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## Hardtohandle

Long story short Frostflower is completely correct. 

I have to say I probably hounded my wife with all the lines possible not have her leave since I found out honestly on December 30th, 2012. 

Many here told me not to, many of my friends told me not to, my brother told me not to and he literally lives right down stairs from me. 12 steps away as the apartments are attached ( doors of course on both ends). 

I did more harm then good. I pushed her away faster. I made her resent me more. 

Now its the 28th of January and only just recently have I been able to calmly expressed my understanding and disappointments to my wife's actions. 

Everyone has given me good and great advice, but Poster Carmen Ohio laid down some ground work in my post that really struck home for me.

Nutshell is you need to show your wife that your there for her and the kids but your going to move on as well. 

Its hard I know. In the beginning I cried in front of my wife, I begged, I cried some more. I told her your gonna see what its like without me, its not gonna be good. All this nonsense. 

Both of you made mistakes. Her mistake was that something was bothering her for a long time and didn't really address it. The job of a wife/husband/significant other is to tell the other person the truth. What is going on. 

To say *Hey STUPID* your messing up and I am telling you because me out of everyone else loves you the most and I don't want to loose you because your too stupid to see this. 

Also I'm not gonna lie, as I find it pretty amazing that your wife just left you to leave you. Usually there is someone else in the picture. You might not have seen it yet or know about it, but people leaving usually need someone else for support, like a monkey swinging in a tree. They don't let go of the first branch until they have a hold of the second. 

I don't want to put things in your head either so take the last part with a grain of salt.

I just feel you should fix what needs to be fixed and be there for the mother of your kids, but also let know without saying it " I fixed what your complaining about but I'm not going to be punished on top of it".

I discovered that once I fixed the complaints my wife had she had nothing else left to say but the truth. The truth was she loved someone else now. Of course she first said it was the computer then even she noticed how lame that was. Then proceeded to start to tell me I wasn't in the kids lives. Don't fall into those traps.

It's crazy hard stuff I know. Just keep posting in this same thread and people will continue to give you updated advice as time goes on and things change for you.


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## lostLove77

Thanks for the input. It's helpful to get some guidance and kind words. 

I believe there is currently an emotional affair. One thing about my wife is that she's very honest. There have been some friends she's been leaning on but nothing physical. She has stated that right now she can't trust any man to place her needs first and she doesn't want to give anyone a piece of herself. I know it may sound naive but she has been very honest with me, sometimes so much so it can hurt.

I have started to see a councilor. 2nd apt is tomorrow. Pretty standard stuff so far, focus on my communication and start working out etc... It helps but the demons in the evenings while lying in bed are vicious.

This past weekend was a rough few days. I took the girls up to my family and they helped immensely. Really helped to have a good time with my daughters. But just last night, took them over to my wife's and of course we spoke at length again. She has helped me gain insights into our relationship but there is obviously pain she isn't even remotely over. It's all so strange. We even slept beside each other in her bed, nothing physical other than some holding. 

I can understand the need for the 180 but it's going to be a very hard thing to work through. Thanks for the support.


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## Frostflower

If you wife is willing to talk and you can both continue to gain insight into your relationship, that’s great. A marriage is definitely something worth saving if you can. Just be careful that you don’t fall into thinking there’s hope if she is determined it is over. You don’t need any more hurt.

As for the 180, you can pick out the strategies that you think will be beneficial for you. There is no rule that you must follow them all.


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## lostLove77

My counseling session was very helpful in establishing guidelines and goals for myself. Her direction was to focus on empathy and showing my wife that I'm able to communicate and give her love/understanding without expecting anything in return.

I think this is healthy but very difficult. Our conversations over the last few days seem a bit more distant and focused on money/logistics. I offer words of affirmation and I know i should not focus on any reciprocated words but it's still hard not getting any. 

I also find it strange that I'm not as overwhelmed with the sadness. It a weird way, it concerns me. I know i still have affection and want to R with my wife but I feel the distance growing. Such a roller coaster ride!


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## Chuck71

Frost-You had right advice. I know this sounds weird but do the counter of what your heart tells you. Throw away the Nice Guy t-shirts....grab a few PO'd Gordie Howe jerseys and wear them with zeal.


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## lostLove77

Well to Frost's advice of not falling into thinking there's hope, i think the hope is fading fast. So my path right now is to follow the advice of my counselor but not to expect anything from her.


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## Chuck71

wise choice........stay focused..........your only concern is you and the kids. f-her


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## lostLove77

Rough day today. No self confidence. Feel so isolated down here and it's going to take so long to sell and close on a new house.

Spoke with her briefly about some things with the kids and somehow got into the relationship again. She just has no desire to reconcile and work on our marriage. Said she is tired of working, she tried already.

This shall pass i suppose but i'm just getting tired.


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## Chuck71

Tired of working on M......I hear that often.....I ask can you verfify those times you did......just for the record.

Let her go......wish her well.....180 and NC. It's focus on you-time dude. Spend time with the kids. Get her off your mind. Pick up an old hobby. Doesn't matter if you skip rocks across a pond.....do something to shift focus.


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## GutPunch

lostLove77 said:


> Spoke with her briefly about some things with the kids and somehow got into the relationship again.




Please avoid the relationship talks. She has to think you have moved on. I know you love her but it sounds like she has checked out. Let her go.


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## lostLove77

Some great/tough points here. I honestly haven't worked enough at it, at least in the right way. I'm being selfish in a lot of ways. And the relationship discussions are not helping, just becoming a vicious circle.

Points very well taken, now the tough part. Sometimes a swift kick delivers the message better.


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## Chuck71

it takes two to blow up a M..............let her a$$ sit in that victim chair and lose touch with reality. Act as Conrad said, cool, firm, dispassionate. Restructure your focus 'young jedi"


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## lostLove77

Not even close to getting control over my emotions. She called this morning to speak with the girls and she seemed so happy and brief with me. I did t say anything dumb but these emotions still just fall on me like a waterfall. Grit teeth and get through it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GutPunch

She could be faking it ... or she could be happy without you. No way to know. Grit your teeth and get thru it. That's all you can do. Focus on you and the girls.


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## Chuck71

overt happiness is usually a facade.


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## lostLove77

Hard to say. She's always been really good at being/appearing happy even when something is bothering her. 

I know my own emotions and expectations are changing 'cause this is the first evening I'm not looking forward to going over there this evening. Can't really afford a hotel so going to sleep in the girls' room.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lostLove77

Just not sure i have the strength to fight for this marriage. She is obviously not too interested in working on things right now but I want my marriage back. Speaking with my counselor, she felt i should fight because i do still want my marriage and love this woman.

I'm having a hard time finding the inner strength when I have to interact with her because of the girls or whatever comes up. I wish i knew which path was right for us.


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## Chuck71

State your desire to work it out, then go dark. 180 / NC....She does not have to make up her mind if she knows you are still two steps behind her. If you back away, that forces a decision. Limbo is no friend.....


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## lostLove77

This week/weekend it's really struck me how destructive it is to worry about what she's doing. I've been holding back on reaching out to her this weekend and only called to talk about logistics with the girls. So hard to leave it at that. I want to talk to her, I don't even know about what, so much has been said already but i also now recognize the "high" people speak of and then the crash afterwards. 

This sucks, I do feel like i'm moving on but every time i speak or see her my emotions take some giant leaps backward! Have to go up there to drop the girls off tonight. This is going to be hard.


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## Chuck71

You're on right course. Step by step. We're here for you. Focus on you and children.


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## Frostflower

How did it go, Love?


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## lostLove77

Hi Frost,
2x4s probably should be handed out. Our relationship is so odd. We both care about each other so much, no verbal abuse and no big blow ups. I simply was emotionally cold and she didn't communicate her needs. She became too isolated and sought other avenues of attention and feels we're too different.

Last night ended up speaking way too much but I finally knew it was too much, said I loved her, wanted my wife back and I understand her need/desire for space and left to stay with a friend.

After I left she sent some text about regret and how she's a useless wife right now as well as some friendly text this morning. I'm not sure if she's simply trying to comfort me or actually wants to talk... So confused over all this.


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## Frostflower

Did you respond to her texts?


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## lostLove77

Yes, I did and then they continued into monday and tuesday. Of course, then had a setback last night while speaking about weekend logistics over the phone AND a ski day out together on friday!

My counselor has been working with me to show her the care and affection that i didn't provide during the marriage and help her heal. She isn't recommending shutting off contact at all but try to open up new avenues. All while still focusing and improving myself and not to focus on what she's doing. This is a hard balance and fear simply takes hold of me. Constantly second guessing things because i'm afraid how she'll react. This is yet another thing I'm trying to work on, what is there to fear? She's already has ended it (but yet doesn't want to start divorce proceedings).

These emotional setbacks makes it hard to keep up the fight to show her affection and not just totally throw in the towel and stop speaking to her.

How she can just want to do things as friends and not be affected by being that close to be blows my mind. I also look at it like that it's an opportunity to communicate. I just don't understand her.


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## GutPunch

lostLove77 said:


> Yes, I did and then they continued into monday and tuesday. Of course, then had a setback last night while speaking about weekend logistics over the phone AND a ski day out together on friday!
> 
> My counselor has been working with me to show her the care and affection that i didn't provide during the marriage and help her heal. She isn't recommending shutting off contact at all but try to open up new avenues. All while still focusing and improving myself and not to focus on what she's doing. This is a hard balance and fear simply takes hold of me. Constantly second guessing things because i'm afraid how she'll react. This is yet another thing I'm trying to work on, what is there to fear? She's already has ended it (but yet doesn't want to start divorce proceedings).
> 
> 
> You need to stick to the 180 or as otherwise known as just do the opposite of what you are doing.
> 
> 
> 
> These emotional setbacks makes it hard to keep up the fight to show her affection and not just totally throw in the towel and stop speaking to her.
> 
> How she can just want to do things as friends and not be affected by being that close to be blows my mind. I also look at it like that it's an opportunity to communicate. I just don't understand her.


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## Chuck71

Set D in motion, see if you can shorten the D since children are involved. The effort she took in leaving, you should take in legally ending it. Want to see an "oh sh!t" look on her face? Do what I mentioned.


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## Frostflower

_'How she can just want to do things as friends and not be affected by being that close to be blows my mind. I also look at it like that it's an opportunity to communicate. I just don't understand her.'
_

Ah, Love, go back and read my first post in your thread. I stand by that. Your wife has the best of both worlds. You don’t need to stop all contact, but right now, she still has her husband for the fun stuff. Maintain a friendly, open attitude, but unless you pull back....well, you are in a semi-separated relationship and the reality of what she has started will never set in. How long are you willing to live like this? 

Work on yourself. Be friendly. Let her know that you care about her. But start detaching. Otherwise she will continue to enjoy you when you are around, and enjoy being single when you’re not. And one day you may be blindsided by D papers.

Take care of you.


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## Voltaire

Chuck71 said:


> Tired of working on M......I hear that often.....I ask can you verfify those times you did......just for the record..


Yeah, I called my STBXW on that one too.

I said "if you were in this marriage that was so bad, what exactly did YOU do to fix it?" 

The answer - "I didn't do anything. I just gave up"

She didn't even see how dumb and ironic that answer is. She expected me to move heaven and earth to make her happy and to fix the problems that she wouldn't even tell me about, but she wasn't even willing to lift a finger.


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## lostLove77

Frostflower said:


> Otherwise she will continue to enjoy you when you are around, and enjoy being single when you’re not.


This feels like what's going on. She's getting asked some hard questions from my daughter and some of her family and she's still sticking by her decision. Just makes me think she means business with this separation (not that she's ever said anything different). Just the way she acts sometimes that it's hard to believe we're done.

I have to find the balance that you're speaking of Frost.

Vol, i hear you about work from both sides. I know she was trying to do things to work on it but it didn't get through. She kept trying from the same tact tho, just banging her head time and time again. We just were not connecting, such misplaced energy on both sides.

Thanks everyone, it's helping greatly.


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## Chuck71

Voltaire-I made attempt after attempt...even after D date was set. About three weeks until final I put her in a position to show her true colors. I did not hear what I wanted to, I heard what I needed to. 

"She just gave up" This grates on me.....I would rather be stuck in elevator with a drunk than a quitter.


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## lostLove77

We took our oldest daughter skiing on Friday and had an amazing day. We talked, embraced and kissed each other. I can't even describe the day. 

On Saturday the girls had a sleepover so I sent a message asking if she'd like to get a drink as I was in the area (this never happens anymore, around the same area without the girls). She just said that friday was amazing but she wasn't ready to go any further and that was it. The rest of the weekend no contact from her. It seems she wants to talk through the week but as soon as the weekend comes, nothing. Unless its about the girls. 

I know it all takes time but it feels so cold and when she does call about the girls it just hurts. I can't take hearing her voice. It brings up such strong emotions. 

I know the lumber will come out to say stop all contact. Well right now I feel like talking with her has made progress in our communication. I know I can only do this so much longer tho. I hope at some poi t my head and heart agree one way or the other and I can have peace.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lostLove77

Trying so hard to let go. Not to care what she does, but as soon as I hear her voice I just melt and can't hold myself together.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GutPunch

You aren't listening. Is there an OM? She is cake eating. Slow torture my man. You are now Plan B.

You are going to have to man up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Frostflower

Let her know that you really enjoyed Friday and would like to go on a date sometime. Leave it open like that and see how she reacts.


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## Conrad

Voltaire said:


> Yeah, I called my STBXW on that one too.
> 
> I said "if you were in this marriage that was so bad, what exactly did YOU do to fix it?"
> 
> The answer - "I didn't do anything. I just gave up"
> 
> She didn't even see how dumb and ironic that answer is. She expected me to move heaven and earth to make her happy and to fix the problems that she wouldn't even tell me about, but she wasn't even willing to lift a finger.


And, I would imagine that precedent was set very early on.


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## Conrad

lostLove77 said:


> We took our oldest daughter skiing on Friday and had an amazing day. We talked, embraced and kissed each other. I can't even describe the day.
> 
> On Saturday the girls had a sleepover so I sent a message asking if she'd like to get a drink as I was in the area (this never happens anymore, around the same area without the girls). She just said that friday was amazing but she wasn't ready to go any further and that was it. The rest of the weekend no contact from her. It seems she wants to talk through the week but as soon as the weekend comes, nothing. Unless its about the girls.
> 
> I know it all takes time but it feels so cold and when she does call about the girls it just hurts. I can't take hearing her voice. It brings up such strong emotions.
> 
> I know the lumber will come out to say stop all contact. Well right now I feel like talking with her has made progress in our communication. I know I can only do this so much longer tho. I hope at some poi t my head and heart agree one way or the other and I can have peace.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


How were you two in the bedroom?


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## lostLove77

Our chemistry was amazing. 

Still having a hard time getting my focus off of her. Hope this house sells soon so I can get back home and have my daughters more as well as actually be near some friends.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lostLove77

Frost don't think I'm ready to stick my neck out again just yet. Trying not to react out of fear but I need a bit of a breather.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Frostflower

lostLove77 said:


> Frost don't think I'm ready to stick my neck out again just yet. Trying not to react out of fear but I need a bit of a breather.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I would never recommend that a man stop breathing! Take your time and breath deep. Keep it in mind for later on.


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## Conrad

lostLove77 said:


> Our chemistry was amazing.
> 
> Still having a hard time getting my focus off of her. Hope this house sells soon so I can get back home and have my daughters more as well as actually be near some friends.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Forgive me for asking if you've posted.

How old are you?

How long were you married?


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## Chuck71

LL77-As long as you are around to be picked
she feels no pressure
cut her off minus kids (use email if possible)
let her wonder WTF you are
or do you have OW
give a female enough time to think lol
watch results


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## lostLove77

We were living together 14 years and married 9. 

Chuck, you are right. She feels no pressure, I don't want to play power games but can't be a doormat either.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chuck71

You won't play power games.....you are simply taking the game away


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## Conrad

lostLove77 said:


> We were living together 14 years and married 9.
> 
> Chuck, you are right. She feels no pressure, I don't want to play power games but can't be a doormat either.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not allowing someone to abuse you is a "power game"?

As Rafiki said, "Look harder"


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## lostLove77

Fair enough, and i don't think she's even thinking about it that deeply. She's not trying to play games but thinking only of herself. 

Went to IC today and she's in agreement that it's time to pull back and focus completely on myself. My stbx has not moved at all in her stance and I can't bang my head on that wall any longer. Just have to draw a line and protect that boundary.


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## Conrad

lostLove77 said:


> Fair enough, and i don't think she's even thinking about it that deeply. She's not trying to play games but thinking only of herself.
> 
> Went to IC today and she's in agreement that it's time to pull back and focus completely on myself. My stbx has not moved at all in her stance and I can't bang my head on that wall any longer. Just have to draw a line and protect that boundary.


If you review the record from 50,000 feet, it's likely she's been thinking only of herself the entire time.


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## lostLove77

Well, since the split I would say yes. She has been. However, I have to man up for the time during our marriage. 

She did a lot of things that she thought would make me happy. She was trying so hard to please me without actually asking me what i needed. She was communicating her love in one way and I was doing it in another. Neither found it's way and she snapped. 

Maybe time can heal those past issues but I know i've made progress even from just a few months ago. Honestly, her leaving and some work with my counselor seemed to flip the switch and I could see my mistakes like never before. But now it's too late, she's hardened her stance.

She's still very open and friendly which seems to only throw me for a loop. I'm just not strong enough to go from married, sharing everything to wanting to be friends with someone.


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## Conrad

Then don't do it.


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## Chuck71

She wants to keep you as Plan B
she is not sure about her decision to leave
focus on YOU YOU YOU
her well being should be as important to you
as the GNP of South Sandwich Islands
As Conrad always says

Cool

Firm

Dispassionate


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## lostLove77

Chuck71 said:


> as the GNP of South Sandwich Islands


TY, laughter right now is the BEST medicine. I honestly need a lot more of it!


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## lostLove77

Been a good couple of days. Focusing mostly on myself and working through my sadness/grief not what she's doing. 

She's dropping the girls off tomorrow at work. Need to man up so I don't backslide by just seeing her. I have a hard time not acting cold just because it pains me to see her while we're split. She always thinks I'm upset with her. Have to work on the cool/happy face.


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## Conrad

lostLove77 said:


> Been a good couple of days. Focusing mostly on myself and working through my sadness/grief not what she's doing.
> 
> She's dropping the girls off tomorrow at work. Need to man up so I don't backslide by just seeing her. I have a hard time not acting cold just because it pains me to see her while we're split. She always thinks I'm upset with her. Have to work on the cool/happy face.


Why?


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## lostLove77

I guess I deeply want to work on relationship & myself in small ways. One of the problems between us was that I showed a lot of my frustration on my sleeve (even tho it mostly didn't involve anything she did) and she thought i was always upset with her / not good enough.

So, it isn't a 1/1 comparison in this case because I am sad with our situation. I do love this woman, so i guess i see it as a change for our relationship and myself. Acting pissed off doesn't really help anything, her or for me.


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## Conrad

Stay at 50,000 feet and pay attention to YOUR reaction to this.

If being engaging and friendly hurts you, don't do it.

Always be polite, but gregarious and charming may not be helpful to you.

Sounds like she has strong tendencies to make everything about her.

Would that be an accurate statement?


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## lostLove77

That's interesting, in some ways yes. Every way i reacted to a situation was internalized by her and caused pain. I didn't even know it was happening until it was too late. 

She thought her love, and her need to comfort me should calm every situation and when that didn't happen she felt betrayal. 

Read a little on communication/love styles and she's very much about Affirmations and Quality time. I was totally oblivious. I've learned more about her these past 2 months than the time we were married. Sad, but true.


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## Conrad

lostLove77 said:


> Every way i reacted to a situation was internalized by her and caused pain.
> 
> She thought her love, and her need to comfort me should calm every situation and when that didn't happen she felt betrayal.


She's also severely codependent.

How could you possibly "succeed" under those circumstances?


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## lostLove77

I NEVER thought of it that way until you said it. She's even said that she knows she's a very needy person. 

I know it's not my job/place to help solve anything for her but she sees this need and the lack of fulfillment to that need to mean we're not compatible and can't be happy together even tho we do love each other a lot. 

Frustrating.


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## Conrad

lostLove77 said:


> I NEVER thought of it that way until you said it. She's even said that she knows she's a very needy person.
> 
> I know it's not my job/place to help solve anything for her but she sees this need and the lack of fulfillment to that need to mean we're not compatible and can't be happy together even tho we do love each other a lot.
> 
> Frustrating.


Practice the following line:

"I'm sorry you feel that way"


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## lostLove77

Thanks. That's a great response. True, but not pleading.

For the record there have been times i Fked up royally and was not much of a communicator when she was trying to tell me what was wrong. But there was never a question of my devotion. Have to see what the journey brings! TY


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## lostLove77

God lord, I've made no progress at all. Got a blast email from my daughters teacher about some recent events and at the bottom it had an inquiry from my wife about a baby sitter because she has an evening function at work. Very innocent, yet it triggered a wave of anxiety/panic... don't know how to describe it.

She's doing things on her own, doesn't need me etc... Damn, if i can't handle that how am I getting through all this?! The moment is over but scares the hell out of me. Been a horrible morning for no good reason. I miss my wife.


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## Frostflower

Love, Honey, if she needed you she would be with you. I know that hurts. I’m sorry.

Its normal to grieve what you’ve lost, but I agree with Chuck. Focus on you. Take care of yourself, work on being the best you can be. You will get through this.


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## lostLove77

Frost, I don't know why but what you said about her not needing to be with me has really struck a deep chord. I almost use it as a mantra. 

Starting to get easier to detach myself (its been one day, so we'll see about his). If someone wants to pull themselves away from me in such an extreme way, well I'm not wringing my hands anymore. I know I'm a great father and a great person. I may not have moved my heart on from my wife but I will walk on. I am not ready for other people but I know that I have great things to offer someone. I will survive. Thank you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lostLove77

Just another thing. She suspended her Facebook account so now when I look at old post she is completely gone. You can see something was there, her comments - whatever it was. So symbolic. In a strange way it helps.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lostLove77

Hard weekend. Had a great time with my girls but as soon as I saw her when I dropped them off I lose all the progress I've made. Just seeing her triggers all these emotions and reverting back to worrying about what she's been doing. I don't know how to stop this vicious cycle. 

She is getting more defensive lately. Her parents want to come down during the Easter weekend to see the home but I don't think I can spend the weekend wih the WS. I told her that it doesn't feel right because she doesn't want to spend time with me. This set her off. She said I was putting words in her mouth, that she wanted to go skiing with me. That was like 2 weeks ago. I actually apologized for assuming and putting words in her mouth but looking back I still think her actions are speaking louder than words. She doesn't call or text anymore. I see no desire at communicating, why does she get mad when I bring it up? She said she looks forward to seeing me. When she said this I couldn't believe it. I repeated it out of disbelief and she thought I was mocking her. I just honestly didn't believe it. 

Gotta try focusing on work today. Spending way too much energy on this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

lostLove77 said:


> Just another thing. She suspended her Facebook account so now when I look at old post she is completely gone. You can see something was there, her comments - whatever it was. So symbolic. In a strange way it helps.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's called blocking.


----------



## lostLove77

Well, she actually suspended her whole account and started a new one. So all the stuff she had done on my feed disappeared but you can still see where it was. 

Too much focus on her lately, trying to break out of it.


----------



## Conrad

lostLove77 said:


> Well, she actually suspended her whole account and started a new one. So all the stuff she had done on my feed disappeared but you can still see where it was.
> 
> Too much focus on her lately, trying to break out of it.


Way too much.


----------



## Chuck71

LL-Her independence is a full blown facade
Sit and wait, it will unravel
Shift focus.....go dark....black hole dark
reclaim your ballz and drink liquor in your bedroom in your underwear


----------



## lostLove77

Thanks chuck. Seems petty to say "I hope you're right" but I do. Trying to find my boundaries and stick to the. Just so lonely being out of state. Going to be a long rest of the winter and spring. Then hopefully I'll be able to move back to my home area.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lostLove77

Small but interesting event last night. Just as I turned off the light last night the phone rings. She was calling just to say hi. First time that has EVER happened. 

Well, guess you could bust out the lumber but we spoke for a while. She started off really happy to speak but started to get upset by all the same old stuff. I know I should have just ended it right there but this woman has such a hold on me. Anyway we hung up and she just seemed angry. 

To make matters better or worse this uneasyness bothered me and I called her this morning. Was actually and interesting conversation this time. She mentioned she wasn't angry with me now but with me from the past couple years, she sees a lot of progress etc... Turns out the guys she had been hanging out with and texting got pissed off that she would not advance with them and always insisted she wanted to be friends. She said they acted like teenage girls throwing a fit and she didn't know how to handle it since she's always had been with me (calm and reserved). 

We spoke about how angry she was about all the stuff in the past and its not making her any happier to be rehashing it. Said it may be good for her to go to counseling herself. Who knows what will happen but it was interesting to see some cracks. Chuck may have been on to something.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chuck71

It's a pattern...

Two of you spoke...good..let it go

What's the three words Conrad spoke..C, F, D

POSOM must be out of the picture 

only then can you have a "sit-down"


----------



## Voltaire

lostLove77 said:


> Well, guess you could bust out the lumber but we spoke for a while. She started off really happy to speak but started to get upset by all the same old stuff.


Does the "same old stuff" include not making her happy?

My WAW does this too. She thinks that her happiness is nothing to do with her but was my responsibility.

That's nonsense. No other human being is responsible for your happiness. If you are unhappy it is up to you to do something about it. It's not up to someone else (even a spouse) to come along, work out what will make you happy (because you're too lazy to work this out for yourself) and supply it. 

That's called not taking responsibility.


----------



## lostLove77

The same old stuff was not listening to her needs. I admit I was not hearing her clearly but if I had known How strongly she felt on some of this stuff things could have been different. She thought if she did X for me, I would do Y for her. I'm not that insightful. The Love Languages book (read after separation) helped me see a lot of the things I was missing. I just sooner had her hit me in the face with 2x4 than roll over on something she was that upset about. 

But, I'm seeing that I have to be happy. I hope she changes her mind but I clearly see I have to limit my exposure to her because it only causes pain. I hoped that I could spend time with her to help repair our relationship and show her progress but I can't do it. I want to be happy, and I want to be with her but here is only one thing there I can control.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Frostflower

lostLove77 said:


> The same old stuff was not listening to her needs. I admit I was not hearing her clearly but if I had known How strongly she felt on some of this stuff things could have been different. She thought if she did X for me, I would do Y for her. I'm not that insightful. The Love Languages book (read after separation) helped me see a lot of the things I was missing. I just sooner had her hit me in the face with 2x4 than roll over on something she was that upset about.
> 
> *But, I'm seeing that I have to be happy. I hope she changes her mind but I clearly see I have to limit my exposure to her because it only causes pain. I hoped that I could spend time with her to help repair our relationship and show her progress but I can't do it. I want to be happy, and I want to be with her but here is only one thing there I can control.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 This is very insightful, Love. You are on your way.


----------



## Conrad

lostLove77 said:


> The same old stuff was not listening to her needs. I admit I was not hearing her clearly but if I had known How strongly she felt on some of this stuff things could have been different. She thought if she did X for me, I would do Y for her. I'm not that insightful. The Love Languages book (read after separation) helped me see a lot of the things I was missing. I just sooner had her hit me in the face with 2x4 than roll over on something she was that upset about.
> 
> But, I'm seeing that I have to be happy. I hope she changes her mind but I clearly see I have to limit my exposure to her because it only causes pain. I hoped that I could spend time with her to help repair our relationship and show her progress but I can't do it. I want to be happy, and I want to be with her but here is only one thing there I can control.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Now we're getting somewhere.


----------



## Chuck71

Unless you change, nothing will change. You are getting there!


----------



## lostLove77

Thanks TAM friends. Still having a hard time fully letting go. I still feel so attached to this woman. I've cut down on a lot of my exposure and conversations with her, yet every time i hear her voice and drop the kids off I feel like a spell comes over me where she could do or say almost anything she wants.

I am getting much better with it but the emotion is still strong. Guess it simply takes time and effort but it still cuts like a knife.

I really miss the tactile connection of my ring. Has any man here got a ring to represent their connection with their kids? Been thinking of trying to fill that void with my daughters' connection but have never really seen anything like that.


----------



## Chuck71

The more you push through, the easier it will be. Everything does not happen overnight. But the hits do not hurt as much now. 12/11/12 was my rock bottom day. Then out of the rabbit hole. I made it, you will too. Take what you feel for W and give the extra to the kids. By your post the other day, you are beginning to view things outside yourself. 50k feet......


----------



## lostLove77

Thanks Chuck. Glad you are doing great. Mid december isn't that long ago and was actually when stuff for us was starting to turn to crap, fast. 

Here's to hoping for a better day tomorrow and gain a little more height on my perspective.


----------



## lostLove77

Feeling a bit of a shift. No contact hasn't been going too well but my reaction to it has definitely changed. She often texts or calls about friendly updates with the girls. It seems awfully sweet at first but then I notice the emotions that causes and keep it short or have stopped picking up the phone. However, the one thing messing with me is that there are times she calls me when she's over stressed and crying about some issue like getting locked out of the house or problems at work. 

When I answer the phone and she's sobbing there is just no way I'm going to hang up with her. I sympathize and help her the best I can. She says im helping a lot, but then has to get in a dig to the past. "This is the way i need a man to speak to me, why didnt you before?". As well she thinks the distance helps me be better at this. WTF, cant win. And I can't believe I've done this but I've actually said I'm sorry for not being there to help. Good lord. Don't know why I say that! I'm sad and pissed off I'm not there. I'm starting to get angry. Angry that she talks about tough weeks and being depressed during the weekends without the girls. Angry she has put us both through incredibly tough situations. Yet she says she still loves me etc... Starting to get upset with her over this. The dependence is fading fast but is getting replaced with pain I've never felt towards her. She may be sorry but I think she's getting what she wanted, me to move on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GutPunch

Too much focus on her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lostLove77

I guess but it's different than it was. Now I don't care what she's doing. I'm just angry with what's been done and the fact that she still wants to use me for support. This is the first time I have been thinking of filing. Once I get this house sold and moved back in town with the girls I will be looking at that. 

Only thing I want to see form her is an effort to work on the marriage or stuff about the girls. I don't need this friend in need sh!t.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chuck71

Trade..............I will listen to your petty sh!t more when you try to save this M more. You are not 1-800-CALL-A-FRIEND. You may be busy re-arranging cans in cabinet or watching dogs chase cats. She wants forceful, manly......"try straightening your life up....or I am out the door"


----------



## GutPunch

Learn to be happy without her. 

At least fake it until you make it.

My wife asked me yesterday how are u?

I'm great! You know real busy though.

Is that the truth? Probably not. 

Show her your strength and resolve.

Do not accept the friend zone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GutPunch

If something is causing you severe
pain then don't do it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

GutPunch said:


> Learn to be happy without her.
> 
> At least fake it until you make it.
> 
> My wife asked me yesterday how are u?
> 
> I'm great! You know real busy though.
> 
> Is that the truth? Probably not.
> 
> Show her your strength and resolve.
> 
> Do not accept the friend zone.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Now you're talking.

Did you get the book?


----------



## lostLove77

That is one thing I have a hard time with. But at this point I don't even know if I care how I come across to her. I guess it's also for myself but I honestly just want to focus on myself. Just been hard when she's constantly contacting me about something. This week my goal is not to answer the phone but communicate through email and ignore unecesarry texts. 

Thanks all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lostLove77

What book?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

lostLove77 said:


> What book?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Lost,

It's a book men should read.

It's an easy read and it speaks to the primal nature of attraction.

The Layguide: How to Seduce Women More Beautiful Than You Ever Dreamed Possible No Matter What You Look Like or How Much You Make: Tony Clink: 9780806526027: Amazon.com: Books


----------



## Frostflower

lostLove77 said:


> That is one thing I have a hard time with. But at this point I don't even know if I care how I come across to her. I guess it's also for myself but I honestly just want to focus on myself. Just been hard when she's constantly contacting me about something. This week my goal is not to answer the phone but communicate through email and ignore unecesarry texts.
> 
> Thanks all.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Good goal. And what is it Conrad recommends saying when conversations start taking a blaming turn.....”I’m not okay with where this conversation is going”....I think that’s it. I thought of that when reading how she says things like she wishes you had been like this when you two were together. Might want to file that sentence away in case its needed in the future!


----------



## lostLove77

Thanks frost. 

So sad right now. Packing up the girls for the drive to the WS. This is the hardest it's been. I miss them so. It's hard chasing them all weekend by myself but so rewarding. Sucks.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Frostflower

lostLove77 said:


> Thanks frost.
> 
> So sad right now. Packing up the girls for the drive to the WS. This is the hardest it's been. I miss them so. It's hard chasing them all weekend by myself but so rewarding. Sucks.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hug.


----------



## lostLove77

Frost, forgot to say thanks. It helped. 

Last weekend i was in a pretty dark place. When i dropped the girls off I helped get them ready for bed and promptly left. I thought I was courteous enough but didn't stick around to talk.

On the way to my friends to stay the night she kept calling me, on the third or fourth time i accidentally hit the button the steering wheel to answer the call. She asked "what the h was that?" She thought i was being cold with her.... I could only ask "what do you want from me?" Unfortunately this turned into a big step backwards where we spoke quite a bit and really ended up nowhere again.

So, throughout this week I've done well sticking to boundaries and with my counselor came up with a great response that hits true to my heart when she gets into things like this. "Are we working on our marriage?" If the answer is no, that's it. Nothing else to speak about.

However, i guess I have a tough decision for this weekend. My daughters have a birthday party to go to this sunday afternoon near her house. So after the party she wants to make dinner for all of us. I know the girls would love it. I'm feeling confident from the week and feel i can stick to my boundaries so I may do it. Here's to hoping I pass (if i go through with it) the test and walk out sunday night with my head held high. This will be my biggest test yet.


----------



## Chuck71

Stick to your boundaries. It appears she gets upset when you do not do as she expects. We know where that leads don't we? You do not have to go....but the decision is yours to make. Stay focused what ever you do.


----------



## Frostflower

I agree with Chuck. If you go stay focused on your boundaries. Observe. What do you see?

That’s a great question your counsellor gave you. Its the strategy to ask it of yourself or to ask it of her?


----------



## lostLove77

I think it can apply to both. She mentioned it more as a question to ask my wife but i think it can be applied well either way.

I am tired of words, she'll say something very sweet or say she'll do something but never follows through. She has transitioned to a survival mode for her own emotions. That is the one thing that has me the most concerned about this proposition. She likes a connection with me but doesn't want commitment. I cannot feed that. 

I may already know what my decision should be, but having a hard time getting my heart to agree. The added fruit of being with my children also makes it hard.


----------



## Chuck71

LL-Review Conrad's quotes......they are several but easy to burn to memory


----------



## lostLove77

I've seen a few he has posted here and there. Is there a compilation somewhere?


----------



## Chuck71

Conrad may have them under his posts
if not just ask him, he would gladly assist


----------



## Frostflower

Chuck71 said:


> Conrad may have them under his posts
> if not just ask him, he would gladly assist


Not sure if he has ever posted on your thread, LL, but if you PM him, he will answer. He’s a great support.


----------



## Chuck71

LOL Conrad just got banned. i'm sure it is just temp


----------



## lostLove77

HA, speaking too frankly i'm sure.

Still in limbo over tomorrow evening. So far a great weekend with the girls. All of a sudden there are people all over the beach towns. Guess St Pats day has everyone ready for drinking and the beach! I hope it won't be long till i get some offers on the house. Tho it will be bitter sweet, we bought this place for the girls to enjoy in the summer.


----------



## Chuck71

I was staying in my rental property when my ex and I split. It was the one we were married in and lived the next six years. It wasn't bad though.....I try not to dwell on what could have been. What happened, happened.....time and life....move on.
Good luck....on meeting


----------



## lostLove77

Thanks Chuck. I know day dreaming doesn't help anything. I will get through it, but it helps to let out these emotions instead of keeping it bottled up and pretending not to think of it.

I know i'm actually in a pretty good place overall. Just not where i want to be. I have been a pretty impatient person but working on finding my center. Happiness will come with time. I'm worth it.


----------



## Chuck71

I like your attitude!!!! She will too


----------



## lostLove77

I keep getting friendly little texts from her but no real substance. "Hi" "Have a great day" or just stuff about the kids like "The girls smell pretty after their bath"

What does this woman want from me? I honestly don't know whether to respond or not half the time. Sometimes i do, but usually in the same manner.

WS - Hi
LL - Hi
WS- Hope you're feeling better (family has been fighting the flu)
LL - Fine, TY

Then that pretty much ends the conversation. I don't get it.


----------



## Chuck71

Major fishing.....she can't understand why you do not jump at the chance to speak with her


----------



## GutPunch

If these texts bother you, and they obviously do, do not answer them.

She left, why do you owe her a response.


----------



## lostLove77

I guess I don't, but I do love this woman and want my wife back. So, i'm not sure which is better. Absolute minimum contact or open to communication.

These texts actually don't hurt at this point anymore, it just confuses me.


----------



## lostLove77

Ok, I need help with an email. She sent me an email about easter:

Also, I wanted to cordially invite you to Easter "lunch" that day of Easter. The girls, my parents and I would truly truly love for you to stay. I also completely understand you wanting to head out quick. So I definitely can do it more as an earlier lunch so you can head back to home. COmpletely up to you and you can also tell me last minute.

Respond with a simple & short, "thanks but i can't stay."?

As much as I'd love to spend time with my wife and girls I just don't think I can be "friends".


----------



## Conrad

lostLove77 said:


> Ok, I need help with an email. She sent me an email about easter:
> 
> Also, I wanted to cordially invite you to Easter "lunch" that day of Easter. The girls, my parents and I would truly truly love for you to stay. I also completely understand you wanting to head out quick. So I definitely can do it more as an earlier lunch so you can head back to home. COmpletely up to you and you can also tell me last minute.
> 
> Respond with a simple & short, "thanks but i can't stay."?
> 
> As much as I'd love to spend time with my wife and girls I just don't think I can be "friends".


It would be a #3.

Good move.


----------



## lostLove77

#3? Is there a top 10 list somewhere?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

lostLove77 said:


> #3? Is there a top 10 list somewhere?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


A #3 is something you do for your spouse that gives them pleasure, but makes you feel bad about you.

Quite often, we rationalize that it will make them happy or get them to love us... or they'll appreciate it.

When they don't do any of the above? We get angry.

Eliminate #3's from your life.

If you're not ok with it - you're not ok with it.

Stand firm.


----------



## lostLove77

So, what is #1 & 2?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

lostLove77 said:


> So, what is #1 & 2?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


#1 is doing things to give yourself pleasure - activities, hobbies, purchases, etc.

When's the last time you bought something for you?

#2 is doing things to give someone else pleasure when you expect NOTHING in return - and simply do it because you want to

Think Mother Theresa - yes... it was about her... but it gave her great pleasure to help those destitute Indians.


----------



## lostLove77

#2 sounds like a key component of true love.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

lostLove77 said:


> #2 sounds like a key component of true love.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


We talk ourselves into stretching #2's into #3's.

If we learn to be still, it's easy to tell the difference.


----------



## lostLove77

Guess it's time for an update. I know this story isn't very interesting, especially with Bull Winkle's story out there!

I have a hard time processing my situation into words. No crazy fights, infidelity just confusion. My WS has been reaching out through calls and texts to talk about stuff with the kids but when that is worked out we speak like friends. 

She even brings up a few happy moments from the past. It seems to be getting more positive, not many moments where she gets stuck on things that make her upset. I started to run and workout more and she is really interested in this. She really got into running a few years ago and now she says she wants to go running with me. I know this is putting my head in a strange spot. I still feel connected to her but I'm not sure if that's good or bad. We get along really well, but she feels she is still "recuperating". 

We're speaking much more openly about things than ever but there is still no commitment or even a hint that she may want to work on the relationship. That seems to say that i really need to cut everything off but there does seem to be some positive signs. I just don't know.

Funny side note, the town-home next to her has come up for sale and she wants me to buy it and she's serious. Just strange.


----------



## GutPunch

Don't buy the townhouse.

You keep working on you.

She is obviously noticing. 

Don't change anything. 

Stay the course.


----------



## Conrad

GutPunch said:


> Don't buy the townhouse.
> 
> You keep working on you.
> 
> She is obviously noticing.
> 
> Don't change anything.
> 
> Stay the course.


If she invites you to run with her, go ahead.

DO NOT ASK to do so.


----------



## lostLove77

Thanks. I am not asking her to do anything. I'm starting to learn some things

One thing that she has said that I like is that she's not happy with herself so she can't be In a relationship. Need to practice more patience.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tron

lostLove77 said:


> Funny side note, the town-home next to her has come up for sale and she wants me to buy it and she's serious. Just strange.


Don't do it! You need to sell the vacation home and find a rental nearby. Buying the townhouse next door is just an invite for her to have a "H" next door to handle all her crap...i.e. you meet all her needs. What is in it for you? Have you heard the term "cake-eater"? If she wants a H, she is going to need to be a W. Otherwise you are going to sit in perpetual limbo and go crazy. And, what happens if you wind up divorced, how is she going to feel when you have moved on and your new girlfriend comes around or spends the night? 

As for the running, it sounds like a good way to reconnect if she asks.

Is your W a jealous woman?


----------



## Conrad

lostLove77 said:


> Thanks. I am not asking her to do anything. I'm starting to learn some things
> 
> One thing that she has said that I like is that she's not happy with herself so she can't be In a relationship. Need to practice more patience.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Show her how happy you are and miracles can happen.


----------



## lostLove77

I could never live right next to her, but why would she want to?!

On the downward side of my confidence wave. Sometimes it just feels hopeless. I'm sure it will pass but just feeling down tonight. Better to post it here than show it to her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

lostLove77 said:


> I could never live right next to her, but why would she want to?!
> 
> On the downward side of my confidence wave. Sometimes it just feels hopeless. I'm sure it will pass but just feeling down tonight. Better to post it here than show it to her.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You must realize you're doing well.

She's gone from not wanting anything to do with you to musing about inviting you to be her fitness partner.

Stay the course. Keep working on you.

I have a feeling part of your fitness routine will eventually include pounding the headboard - with her initiating.


----------



## lostLove77

Thanks C, I however am not so sure. We'll see if she even brings it up again. 

I'm getting really frustrated with my living/kids situation. I have the kids every weekend since its the only time I can see them so she has EVERY weekend free. She's been going camping and skiing with friends, simply having a great time doing things we used to do before kids took over the iteninary. I am not going to give up what time I have with the kids but she must be loving this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

lostLove77 said:


> Thanks C, I however am not so sure. We'll see if she even brings it up again.
> 
> I'm getting really frustrated with my living/kids situation. I have the kids every weekend since its the only time I can see them so she has EVERY weekend free. She's been going camping and skiing with friends, simply having a great time doing things we used to do before kids took over the iteninary. I am not going to give up what time I have with the kids but she must be loving this.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sounds like a losing situation for you.

No chance to address this? I can hear the resentment.


----------



## lostLove77

I've gone through this a bunch of times and can't come up with anything until this house is sold. Just hoping I'm building some good karma.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

lostLove77 said:


> I've gone through this a bunch of times and can't come up with anything until this house is sold. Just hoping I'm building some good karma.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I have to admit, that would drive me crazy


----------



## lostLove77

I am going crazy tonight. No end in sight. I love time with my girls but can't get her running around free all weekend out of my mind. New town, no friends and constant work. I don't know how much more I can do this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lostLove77

Must be making some kind of progress. I actually think I can be fairly detached while dropping the girls off tonight. I guess I've been through these rollercoasters enough to understand what I was getting upset about & why. Now i'm just numb. What else can she do to me at this point? 

May have a date on tuesday but that's a whole other can of worms. Not entirely sure I should be going on it but she seems really sweet and I just see as some time out and practice in a sense.

Here's hoping to a great week for everyone here!


----------



## lostLove77

I know what it is, I'm not looking for anything form her. I believe every other time I had been hoping for some mind of emotional bone from her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

lostLove77 said:


> I know what it is, I'm not looking for anything form her. I believe every other time I had been hoping for some mind of emotional bone from her.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is true progress.

Get the house sold.


----------



## LongWalk

It is too bizarre that your wife could want you to move next door. That would send signals to any woman you date the future that your were under your current wife's thumb.

Just keep going with 180 and see how things play out.


----------



## lostLove77

I honestly can't make sense of anything at this point. I didn't mention it before but the end of last week I get a facebook friend invite from her. I have ignored it so far.

So Sunday night, I drop off the girls coolly and confident. No mopping or bitterness. Play with the girls a little bit, and my youngest asks "Is Brian coming over?". WOW! Then she says "He found my egg for me!" I quickly kiss the girls and leave. Text her on my way out that I am not ok with introducing the girls to significant others without my knowledge.

She calls and says he is just a friend and they only saw him at a community Easter hunt. Says it would be no different than if i took the girls over to my best friend for Easter. "I'm not ok with that, this person has a history of an emotional affair with you while we were together and he freaked out when you didn't want to take the relationship further". She said she could understand but she doesn't want anything and assured me he didn't want anything anymore. 

I cannot believe the ignorance of her sometimes, of course he said he just wants to be friends, she threatened to cut him off completely if he didn't!

So, then Monday morning i wake up to texts asking me if we could split a trip to Disney with the girls! WTF! I then get a call about it. 
--Weak moment alert --
I told her that i didn't think i could spend a week in a small hotel with her without getting attached and wouldn't be able to keep my hands off of her. Her response was something like "we always had great vacations and physical relationship, whatever happens, happens. I just don't want a relationship, relationships have never worked out for me". So 14 years just didn't work out? Good lord!

Later in the day she invites me to come up later in the month for a Girl Scout event with or daughter then dinner and stay the night (no mention of sleeping arrangements, HEH!).

So, lets be facebook friends, live next to each other and take a cool vacation with possible benefits!

Head spinning, will take a while to work this one out.


----------



## Conrad

You can see where this is headed.

It's working.

What do YOU want?


----------



## lostLove77

Messing everything up. I had to go over to my exs house to watch my daughter while she's home sick. I saw some things by the computer that really upset me. She had a shopping receipt for $600 from the other week, this was just after she asked for a loan from me. So, I feel ashamed but I opened her Facebook account. She was speaking to her friends about all the different guys she has been dating. I snapped. 

I called her and confronted her a out the money and guys. She said she returned most of the stuff - whatever. For the guys, she said no sex and no steady relationship, besides we're separated. I felt like a fool. We had our close moments through this whole thing. 

But now she said she's freaking out about trusting me etc... I feel bad about every single part of this. Mine and hers. Rough day.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chuck71

Re-focus........ 

cool

firm

dispassionate

you should be more concerned about getting your $ back

than what she is doing

she is correct, you are separated

meaning you can date

but most important, observe @ 50k and 180 / NC


----------



## lostLove77

Thanks Chuck, i need some pep talk every once in a while. It just seems i get thrown into these situations where i have to go to her house for the girls or some other stuff because of this living situation. 

I cruise along well for a while, and then it blows up in my face. I read a few times about some books about getting past a breakup but can't seem to find their titles. Anyone have them? Or tips to back away and try to attain 50k feet of perspective?


----------



## Conrad

lostLove77 said:


> Thanks Chuck, i need some pep talk every once in a while. It just seems i get thrown into these situations where i have to go to her house for the girls or some other stuff because of this living situation.
> 
> I cruise along well for a while, and then it blows up in my face. I read a few times about some books about getting past a breakup but can't seem to find their titles. Anyone have them? Or tips to back away and try to attain 50k feet of perspective?


You need to realize that none of this is about you.

When you personalize it, then you fall off the edge.


----------



## lostLove77

Conrad said:


> You need to realize that none of this is about you.
> 
> When you personalize it, then you fall off the edge.


This is the biggest thing i have a problem with. I guess i'm too selfish to get past this.


----------



## Conrad

lostLove77 said:


> This is the biggest thing i have a problem with. I guess i'm too selfish to get past this.


No, you're still codependent.


----------



## Chuck71

LL We all slip up........start anew, stay focused

ironic she either never changed her FB password

or has the auto log in.... you may have been meant to see it


----------



## lostLove77

Chuck, i know for a fact she's IT challenged and was not on purpose. I am ashamed but i am glad i saw it, it was a cold slap in the face but it removed any kind of fog i had of us working on things.

'Rad, I am still attached to her but a lot of what i read about codependency is that the person gives and gives. The problem with us was that i didn't give enough. I can see my version of codependency is that i need her to feel happy.


----------



## Chuck71

did you do many #3s?


----------



## lostLove77

honestly i think i am doing more of those than ever, sh1t!

Loaning her money, going out of my way to drop off and pickup the girls. I could probably make a long list if i really thought about it. I have justified that in about every way you can think of but usually it's because i think it will help my girls.


----------



## Chuck71

What is your current co parenting plan?


----------



## lostLove77

Currently i have them every weekend because i'm living at the vacation home until we can sell it. Once that happens i can move back to town and we'll be splitting them 50/50. Things will be much easier then because i won't be so far away and sicknesses etc... will be simpler to deal with.


----------



## Chuck71

has a D been filed as yet?


----------



## lostLove77

No, i have been waiting to get this house sold and to get settled with my daughters before focusing on that. She doesn't want to file, says she doesn't need it. She sees the separation as a divorce without the paperwork, i guess. What a damn mess.


----------



## Chuck71

Of course..... she wants you to file and do all the legwork and pay

Whose name is the house in? If it is both

consider moving back in, your place too

see kids more...... no more grief

plus she will be forced to show all or part of her hand

it may take eight months to sell house

want things to stay status quo that long??


----------



## Conrad

I'd move back in tonight.


----------



## lostLove77

Well, it looks like i got played from the outside but it's a twisted journey. We sold our family home but still have this vaca house. Both our names are on the vaca house and she bought her own. I can work remotely, she cannot so I'm the fool living down here until we sell it. I believe it will sell in the next couple of months as the beach scene heats up as its priced aggressively.


----------



## Chuck71

I have no idea on Canadian courts but get kids more

you can bet your a$$ she is documenting how she keeps them more

Who stays with kids when she is 'out on dates?'

It sounds as if both of you are somewhat well to do

the D may not be over money but sheer principle 

and when it comes down to it....what is the difference?

the way things are..... she is cake eating and Plan Bing you

change her plans.......


----------



## lostLove77

Actually she is a very sweet girl, i feel liked i f'd this up. She isn't keeping any records and doesn't have any axe to grind. She's just not like that with anyone.

She's obviously out when i have the kids on the weekend, but that's the only time i can see them right now.

I also don't think she's plan B'ing me, she's made it clear that she doesn't want to be in a relationship with me but wants to remain friends because we have the girls and still appreciate each other as people. I'm just destroyed that i messed up such a good thing with such a good person. 

I would avoid conversations for many different reasons. I was insecure and didn't know how to handle it. There are many things like that, they all led to this spot This whole experience has made me more comfortable in finding my voice and speaking to her but it's too late. F!


----------



## lostLove77

Frostflower said:


> Love, Honey, if she needed you she would be with you. I know that hurts. I’m sorry.
> 
> Its normal to grieve what you’ve lost, but I agree with Chuck. Focus on you. Take care of yourself, work on being the best you can be. You will get through this.


Going back to this old message 'cause it feels the same as it did then. Frost, miss you and it is a fantastic quote!


----------



## Tron

lostLove77 said:


> Well, it looks like i got played from the outside but it's a twisted journey. We sold our family home but still have this vaca house. Both our names are on the vaca house and she bought her own. I can work remotely, she cannot so I'm the fool living down here until we sell it. I believe it will sell in the next couple of months as the beach scene heats up as its priced aggressively.


I have been wondering about her purchase of the new house. Do you live in a community property state? Where did she get the money to pay for it? Down payment? Current principal, interest and insurance? What do the loan documents say?

What I am getting at is that you may have an ownership interest in the new house...and a right to live there, if you choose to.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

Tron,

If he hasn't signed a marital waiver, he has a claim on the house she purchased.


----------



## lostLove77

You all will love this but here is how the house stuff went down. We had been living in our family home for 7 years in PA. a few times she said she wanted to move to NJ. We looked at a few houses there a few years ago but taxes were triple over there. I just couldn't swallow it and the work I would have to do to sell was overwhelming. So we stayed. Just last June we took a vacation to the shore and there were some amazing deals on bank props tires. We bought a house in delaware. Again she wanted to look in New Jersey for a few reasons. One, their gov created a bill where NJ employees have to live in the state (she's grandfathered in) and that's where she's from. Again I searched online and couldn't find anything manageable. 

So she wen along with the DE house, but this was what really broke her back. Once we closed she said we have to at least move closer to NJ to make her commute easier. I never saw a resolve from her like that before, and by this time we had a ok of work done to our house. So we listed he house. It sold quickly and started lokokimg for homes in the new town. After looking at a few she dropped the bomb. So we sold the family house, split equity and she bought her own. We couldn't afford 3 mortgages so I had to move into the DE property since I could work remote. What a damn mess. I was so blind.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lostLove77

Beautiful day on the beach with my girls. I have a lot of blessings but can only seem to focus on my faults or things lost. 

Still feel so damn alone which is making hard to shift focus from pinning my happiness on her. 

At least I have a two week project starting this Monday that will be up in my home area. I'll be in a hotel but at least ill be working with friends.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

lostLove77 said:


> Beautiful day on the beach with my girls. I have a lot of blessings but can only seem to focus on my faults or things lost.
> 
> Still feel so damn alone which is making hard to shift focus from pinning my happiness on her.
> 
> At least I have a two week project starting this Monday that will be up in my home area. I'll be in a hotel but at least ill be working with friends.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Had any nibbles on the Delaware place?


----------



## lostLove77

Not really, some showings but each time they had some strange nit which I could understand except its prices for its shortcomings.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

lostLove77 said:


> Not really, some showings but each time they had some strange nit which I could understand except its prices for its shortcomings.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It's still a buyer's market where I am.

I've got a beautiful 1250 sq foot with 3 bedrooms - priced to sell at a bit over 100k.

Nobody wants to pay a dime over 100k


----------



## Chuck71

Reminds me of the mid 1990's where you could still buy a 3k sq ft home with two car garage for $99,999


----------



## Conrad

Chuck71 said:


> Reminds me of the mid 1990's where you could still buy a 3k sq ft home with two car garage for $99,999


I think if there's even a hint that interest rates are going up, we'll see houses start to sell fast.


----------



## lostLove77

Well other properties are selling, people just don't like this pond in frot of the property. Think a price reduction is going t o be the only answer. Was just hoping to avoid a loss. But I can't take this much longer. Peace of mind is worth more.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chuck71

No clue why I thought you were in Canada. But if you take a loss it is a write off.


----------



## lostLove77

Wife's been dating, I said that i understand why she left but if she is ready to move on wiith other men why doesn't she file. She said she doesn't need it and I asked but we're basically at that point. She responded "I think so". She doesn't want a relationship with any man but some warmth and companionship. 

So, even tho I don't want to be away from this woman (out of my control) should I file? I really don't want a divorce but I want a wife.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tron

Based on that, I think you need to assume that she has had sex with at least one OM over the past several months while you were taking care of the kids. How do you feel about that?


----------



## Chuck71

And if you are not okay with the affair you can A-file yourself right now or B-catch her (will be quite easy) and file on grounds of adultery and have better standing in the courts and custody.

You admitted to your faults. But you did not deserve this. She wants to cake eat to the third power.


----------



## lostLove77

I really wish I could believe I didn't deserve this. I just keep beating myself up. 
She's pretty honest and it has been sexual yet, but that's not to say it couldn't happen at any time. I think with that I probably need to file but I know I'd take her back in one second. 

Thanks everyone, this really has been a lifeline.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tron

lostLove77 said:


> I really wish I could believe I didn't deserve this. I just keep beating myself up.
> She's pretty honest and it has been sexual yet, but that's not to say it couldn't happen at any time. I think with that I probably need to file but I know I'd take her back in one second. _Posted via Mobile Device_


LL, Is there something more to this separation or your M that you aren't telling us?

Throughout your thread you have gone on about your W being good, pure, honest, etc. ad nauseum. I am not buying it. 

She gave up on counseling after 2 sessions cause it was too difficult??? WTF!

Chuck may be onto something; if it looks like a cake eater and smells like a cake eater... 

She says she doesn't want a relationship. I call bull$hit. If she doesn't want a relationship or isn't looking to replace you, why is she dating? Why does she call you her "everything"? Why did she have an EA? Just to have fun? Sounds like she looking for attention and validation from other men? Am I missing something here? 

You may have made some mistakes, but I don't see anything you did that was so egregious that would justify her just dumping you, buying her own house and setting things up nicely for herself so that she can go out, be a party girl and date other men every weekend or continue on with her EA/PA without interference from you. All the while poor LL is sitting over in Delaware in isolation playing the weekend babysitter, putting his life on hold and fully supportive of her party lifestyle. Nothing good ever comes from that. 

The Delaware vacation home isn't working out. In 3 months, what kind of progress have you made, towards D or towards R? If there is any progress I am not seeing it. She still isn't feeling it apparently and you're still in limbo. You still don't know 100% what your wife is doing and you still don't know where this is heading. Frostflower could have reposted her first response on this thread today and it would still ring true. Nothing has changed, not even you. 

You seem to think that if you sell your vacation home, things will change. Why do you think that? It isn't always about where you hang your hat. It is about you. 

You still seem to care about your M, so IMO, after 4 months of this, you need to find out what is going on in your W's personal life. Once you find out if she is having a MLC, an EA, a PA, or whatever then you will be able to move forward. Without that knowledge you'll stay her little puppet-on-a-string. 

Finally, you didn't do this LL, she did. She wants to be single, not you. She is choosing this life, not you. You went to counseling to fix things and she bailed. Stop beating yourself up over your wife's failings and inability to stay committed to the marriage. At this point, this is all on her.

Just my $0.02.

:rant:


----------



## lostLove77

Thanks Tron, I'm honestly not hiding anything, I don't believe. She asked to go to counseling much earlier and I was too prideful to go. She said she had to work through her issues and it help if I would go. I got defensive and asked if I really had to go etc... She really was trying to reach out and when she felt I wasn't responded to her started reaching out to other people, inappropriate as it may have been. 

But I know now is a different story, can't live in the past and I must slap myself to move on. She still does speak to me at length and even is open to going out for dinner while I'm up here for a few weeks but she was clear, no relationship. It's like a damn drug, can I get a little hit of her attention? Yes. I'm taking it. God help me. 

I do want to get back to PA so I'm not a weekend dad, and actually get some free time around people I know. I'm totally isolated from work, family and friends down there. It's to if to my focusing solely on her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tron

lostLove77 said:


> She said she had to _*work through her issues*_ and it help if I would go.


Besides wanting to be single now, what are/were her issues?




lostLove77 said:


> She asked to go to counseling much earlier and *I was too prideful* to go...I got *defensive* and asked if I really had to go etc... She really was trying to reach out and when she felt _*I wasn't responding*_ to her started reaching out to other people, inappropriate as it may have been._Posted via Mobile Device_


So what. Without extra motivation, many men do this.


----------



## lostLove77

Honestly I'm not sure what issues she spoke about with her counselor. She admits to not being clear about her desires. She would agree to do things to make me happy which she thought would make me do things she wanted without telling me. I know she's even pissed about about doing this for other friends and family and she feels lost I guess. 

I think she's getting a boost of confidence from all this dating. Honestly being up here has already made me feel better and more secure. Hope to build on this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chuck71

Sounds like she did quite a few #3s. Of course she loves the attention, no H, no kids, she is 23 again! Does she not know men trade attention for sex and she is sex for attention? 

Tron is exactly right, could not write it any better. If you allow this to continue, it will. She knows now she can throw you crumbs and you dive all over it. You say you would take her back in a heartbeat but...... would you honestly trust her? 

Why not set the vacation home up with a realtor and move back to PA? Get the 50/50 split....... 
I am pretty confident Tron and Conrad will back me by saying, "Nothing will change until you decide to change them."


----------



## Tron

lostLove77 said:


> Honestly I'm not sure what issues she spoke about with her counselor. She admits to not being clear about her desires._* She would agree to do things to make me happy which she thought would make me do things she wanted without telling me. I know she's even pissed about about doing this for other friends and family*_ and she feels lost I guess.


#3's...and lots of them!!!

LL, her unhappiness is self inflicted. And if she dumps it on you then she's also a blame-shifter. 

Cake-eater, cheater, attention *****, and now blame-shifter. 

Pretty ugly picture developing.


----------



## Chuck71

and LL you are a silent co-conspirator by allowing it to flourish


----------



## lostLove77

Thanks guys, good input. She knows for a fact guys use attention for sex, so that's why she doesn't want any relationship. She's been going out with them until they want more than she wants to give and moves on to the next. She plainly has said she's afraid of getting into another because she's afraid she'll lose herself in the same way. 

So this will take a while for me to process I'm sure. But I imagine what you guys are saying, cut contact, mourn the loss and move on. 

BTW - is there a source for these #2 and 3s? 
Last night went out and spent money on myself for a change, new clothes, watch wallet & iPod nano for working out. Can't buy happiness but It does help in the self confidence dept.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chuck71

I'm sure Conrad has the link.


----------



## Tron

lostLove77 said:


> Thanks guys, good input. She knows for a fact guys use attention for sex, so that's why she doesn't want any relationship. She's been going out with them until they want more than she wants to give and moves on to the next. She plainly has said she's afraid of getting into another because she's afraid she'll lose herself in the same way.


She needs therapy, not more dates. It doesn't sound like she has a good understanding of what a healthy relationship is or what she should be doing to make herself happy long-term. What was her childhood like?




lostLove77 said:


> So this will take a while for me to process I'm sure. But I imagine what you guys are saying, cut contact, mourn the loss and move on.


I think this is healthier for you in the long run. She might even decide if your never around that she wants you back...or get jealous if she sees you dating other women.




lostLove77 said:


> BTW - is there a source for these #2 and 3s?


I don't like answering for Conrad, but the source is Awareness by Anthony De Mello
http://www.arvindguptatoys.com/arvindgupta/tonyawareness.pdf
I printed it out about 3 weeks ago...I have been preparing myself to read it. I am about ready. It isn't an easy read.




lostLove77 said:


> Last night went out and spent money on myself for a change, new clothes, watch wallet & iPod nano for working out. Can't buy happiness but It does help in the self confidence dept.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is a #1 BTW. And good for you.


----------



## Conrad

In Anthony DeMello's book "Awareness", he talks about the 3 ways we give pleasure in life:

1) Giving pleasure to ourselves. Spending money on something we want. Pursuing an activity we enjoy. Just for us. We're pleased and satisfied with the result.

2) Giving pleasure to others in a way that satisfies us and/or makes us feel good about ourselves. There's always been a debate regarding Mother Theresa - as some have called her "selfish". She engaged in a lifestyle I would not want, but it worked for her. She gave with no expectation of getting love back or even a thank you. By all reports, she was an extraordinarily serene soul and a happy person. She gave that way for herself - and it made her feel good.

3) (or... #3's) - Giving pleasure to others in a way that makes us feel BAD about ourselves. We usually talk ourselves into allowing someone to cross our boundaries to "keep the peace" or we do something in anticipation of being loved. When the expected result doesn't materialize... or when they don't appreciate us? BOOM... massive anger.

Sound familiar?

Get rid of #3's and increase your personal power and happiness.


----------



## lostLove77

Thanks for the Awareness source.

So, i did go out with her last night. It was a very nice evening which makes things so confusing for me. Some of things she said sounded like she would have thoughts about getting back together but would hit something in her mind that scared her from our history. We even had a few nice kisses but I can't make any sense of any of it.

We did speak about IC counselling a bit, she said she's trying to get through her rough year at her school (she's a school counselor herself!) before going. We'll see if that happens.

I have to get off this drug. Tomorrow is a new day, pick myself back up and try this all again.


----------



## Tron

lostLove77 said:


> So, i did go out with her last night. It was a very nice evening which makes things so confusing for me. Some of things she said sounded like she would have thoughts about getting back together but would hit something in her mind that scared her from our history. We even had a few nice kisses but I can't make any sense of any of it.


Keeping you on a string LL...

So what exactly "scared her"?


----------



## Chuck71

she has you and she has other guys

yeah i am betting she wants to keep it that way


----------



## lostLove77

Lots of attention, who wouldn't want that?!

I'm trying to win her back and she's not ready - just banging my head.

Tron, I believe what she's afraid of is that I won't listen to her, won't talk to her and she'll be isolated again. I really am trying my hardest to work on these things because I do see them as issues. May be in time she'll see these changes and trust again. But my head knows I can't hang my hat on that, my emotions will not listen!


----------



## Tron

Let's just assume that you had an extended opportunity to treat her the way she wanted to be treated, i.e. you were attentive, supportive, etc. I realize it's hard for you to be objective, but in your opinion, would that be enough for her to ditch dating other guys and recommit to the M? What does your gut tell you?


----------



## lostLove77

I'm so confused and hurt right now I don't know if I can give a good answer. I know i have been supportive through this whole separation but she's not ready. I think she is afraid of her own issues of being a Pleaser, let alone issues with our past.


----------



## Tron

And she bailed after 2 sessions of MC and doesn't find the issue worthy of IC.

It is clear as night what the solution to her people pleaser problem is. It's to dump you and casually date other men... :scratchhead:

That's comical.

What a mess.


----------



## Chuck71

LL It is an almost certain no-go when you evaluate your own situation. When I was on the roller coaster I could not see things as they were.....Zillard, Gut Punched and Re Group did.....and told me without the clouds. I then stepped outside of myself and saw clearly. It was just like on the third Matrix when Trinity and Neo rose above the machine city........ I saw everything clear.


----------



## zillard

LL - I'm sorry you are here. But you are in good hands.

Would love to jump in but need to read your story first. Headin back to page 1.


----------



## lostLove77

Chuck, Tron, Z - looking over my own story I can see everyone has been pretty much right on this mess. I have to find my own courage to understand I don't NEED anyone, and want to be wih someone who does wish to be with me. I made a lot of mistakes but don't have to make them again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

Lost - She is using these men she is dating for instant gratification, to boost her self esteem - because she is not comfortable with herself. 

She is using you in the exact same way. Only worse. 

You chasing her is not working. Because it won't. 
You being available is not working. Because it won't. 
You doing more #3s is not working. Because it won't.

The only thing that will work for her, is her working on her. Because she is scared of herself and codependent. Searching for as much external validation as she can find in order to feel ok. 

She is not ok. And it's nothing you can fix.

She doesn't want a relationship - not a mutually loving one. She wants to be saved. She wants others to fill her black hole. You have been losing yourself attempting to do just that. 

Stop it!


----------



## zillard

She is using you as a plan b. She doesn't have to have one posom as plan a to do this. 

She is free and single when she wants to be and reaches out to you when that isn't working as she expected. To make sure you are still available as her safety net. 

And you are letting her. Your actions and responses are telling her that you are ok with that. Regardless of what you tell her. You still respond. And when you do it shows her that she is your weakness. Which gives her a green light to proceed however she likes. And she will. 

Until you put a stop to it. 

She says she doesn't want a relationship? Ok then. Give her what she wants. Set her free.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Frostflower

lostLove77 said:


> Chuck, Tron, Z - looking over my own story I can see everyone has been pretty much right on this mess. *I have to find my own courage to understand I don't NEED anyone, and want to be wih someone who does wish to be with me. I made a lot of mistakes but don't have to make them again.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hi Lost. I’ve been catching up on your thread, and I think these words sum up where you want to go. Its going to be a long path, but having this goal is a good start.

What I can’t see the idea of staying friends. Being friendly, yes. But friends? I don’t know, especially as you obviously still have other-than-friend feelings for her. You jump at any chance to spend time with her, which I understand, but it will not help you move toward understanding that you don’t *need* anyone. And kissing her will definitely not help. 

I have to wonder what she is thinking in kissing you. She has made it clear that she doesn’t want a relationship. What are her kisses about?


----------



## lostLove77

Z - with a clear head I know you are right, I simply am having a hard time not making a decision with my heart. Maybe I'm simply not ready to let to, I do feel the conflict and my emotions are not as strong in the argument as they once were although they're still winning. 

Frost, good to see you. I'm happy things are going well in your relationship. I will focus on this goal even through my good and bad decisions. Speaking with my counselor this Saturday we spoke about some of this. Her breakdown was basically that I clearly know the situation and I am making choices I want to make but know full well the ramifications of them. The fact that I awareness is key and eventually I will be able to distance myself when I'm fully ready to let to.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lostLove77

Zillard - what do you mean by that she wants to be saved? 

I guess it doesn't matter, she's going to do what she wants but that made me curious.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chuck71

She wants you to rescue her and drag you into the drama triangle.

An Overview of the Drama Triangle

Cake eating, blameshifting, trickle truth ......

but she does not want to completely lose you

my ex wanted us to remain friends, instead I went dark

now she reaches more than anything

but that ship sailed a good while back


----------



## lostLove77

Yes, I guess I don't understand it but that's it. She's moving on but wants me around in some capacity. Got I love you and have plenty of feelings but we're not a match. What? She's really lumping all the bad together and ways justifying her decision. 

Just started even pulling a the good memories. The vacations weren't for her, I Said I thought she loved the beach, which we went to often and she said she did but we didn't stay on it throughout the day like she likes to. Sheesh, I did nothing right!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lostLove77

Text this morning, "I so desperately want to take away your pain". I have no response to send.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chuck71

Do not settle for the crumbs she throws

return focus to you, not her


----------



## ReGroup

lostLove77 said:


> Just started even pulling a the good memories. The vacations weren't for her, I Said I thought she loved the beach, which we went to often and she said she did but we didn't stay on it throughout the day like she likes to. Sheesh, I did nothing right!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Mrs. RG once looked at pictures we had hung up on the wall and said: I can tell you something negative that happened on each of those days.

Friend, most of them do this.

Ignore it.

Like Chucky said, ignore and unplug. Don't feed into anything that comes out of her mouth. 

She wants you to feel bad... do the opposite.


----------



## lostLove77

Holy sh!p. I bet she could do the same. That's some amazing storage of hurt. 

WTH does that mean? The relationship is forever toxic now or sometimes a phase?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

She's rewriting history in order to alleviate her own guilt. 

Focusing only on the negatives from the past, no matter how small, in order to see her current choice as positive. 

When you react and engage it solidifies her decision, as your response will inevitably not be up to par. "See! That's why I'm doing this. You don't understand me."


----------



## Frostflower

:iagree:


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## lostLove77

This perspective really helps and it makes sense when I read it here. It's just so damn painful coming from her. I HAVE to get better at not reacting to it. 

It's strange but sometimes she seems to go through very soft times and then it seems emotions get stirred up inside her and she gets pissed off and out comes all these hurtful things and ways she feels wronged.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LongWalk

There must be some scale. After enough good memories are packaged in new cartons marked "reject", then the M becomes a mere artifact
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LongWalk

Wonder how she would react if you casually discarded the fondest memory of your best time together?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lostLove77

LW - The way she's acting and speaking I don't think she'd give a damn. Maybe it's a front and if I went dark, a few months from now I'd hear something but who the hell knows. This is a woman i cannot figure out in the least. I think she's breaking off yet another person she's been dating saying that she knows he wouldn't pay enough attention to her.... "I'll never had another relationship again" and at the same time her desire is to have another baby.

Sometimes she sounds so damn sure about what she wants but I have to wonder if she's as lost as I am about some things.


----------



## Tron

Seeking happiness and validation everywhere except the one place where she will actually find it.


----------



## Conrad

lostLove77 said:


> LW - The way she's acting and speaking I don't think she'd give a damn. Maybe it's a front and if I went dark, a few months from now I'd hear something but who the hell knows. This is a woman i cannot figure out in the least. I think she's breaking off yet another person she's been dating saying that she knows he wouldn't pay enough attention to her.... "I'll never had another relationship again" and at the same time her desire is to have another baby.
> 
> Sometimes she sounds so damn sure about what she wants but I have to wonder if she's as lost as I am about some things.


CUT HER OFF

If she cannot figure herself out, how the hell can you?


----------



## Tron

Conrad said:


> CUT HER OFF
> 
> If she cannot figure herself out, how the hell can you?


:iagree: I think it is about that time too LL.


----------



## Frostflower

lostLove77 said:


> LW - The way she's acting and speaking I don't think she'd give a damn. Maybe it's a front and if I went dark, a few months from now I'd hear something but who the hell knows. This is a woman i cannot figure out in the least. I think she's breaking off yet another person she's been dating saying that she knows he wouldn't pay enough attention to her.... "I'll never had another relationship again" and at the same time *her desire is to have another baby.*
> 
> Sometimes she sounds so damn sure about what she wants but I have to wonder if she's as lost as I am about some things.


Hopefully she won’t get pregnant without a relationship that will last and nurture a baby.


----------



## LongWalk

lostLove77 said:


> LW - The way she's acting and speaking I don't think she'd give a damn. Maybe it's a front and if I went dark, a few months from now I'd hear something but who the hell knows. This is a woman i cannot figure out in the least. I think she's breaking off yet another person she's been dating saying that she knows he wouldn't pay enough attention to her.... "I'll never had another relationship again" and at the same time her desire is to have another baby.
> 
> Sometimes she sounds so damn sure about what she wants but I have to wonder if she's as lost as I am about some things.


Conrad may be right. If it weren't for the fact that you have two children, it would all be so simple. All you can do at this point is stick to a 180. Get physically fit. Take good care of your children. Get and spend as much time with them as possible. File for D.

One of your earlier posts:



> Text this morning, "I so desperately want to take away your pain". I have no response to send.


Desperate? How desperate? At one point she was going to go to Disney Land – where everything is based on fantasy but costs a lot of money – have sex with you and then come home and go back to no relationship. Sounds like she is desperate to prolong your pain. It is giving her a rush.

re: sleeping with other men
You would expect her to want to have sex with someone else to test how it felt, to figure out if that was the cure to fill the empty hole that torments her. Do you think she is mentally ill, e.g. as in severe depression?

re: third baby
You did not promise to help conceive one, did you? If she brings it up again, just tell her she is good mother and has good maternal instincts.

re: mind games
Is she very attractive? Does she ever mention that you might bothered by the lack of sex and affection?

You must tell yourself that you can find a woman who at least has good looking and kinder to boot. You absolutely should not tell her anything about your relationships with other women. That will just stimulate more mind games.

It seems she is almost doing this to you.


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## Chuck71

LL She is a lost puppy and in process has you lost as well

be the man and cut her loose, find your focus, be an example for her

she wants a child but not a relationship = bedhopping

her mind is at sixteen, therefore you should treat her as such

read ReGroups thread, he was in the Triangle... now he is at the center

you and ReG have similar story


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## lostLove77

LongWalk said:


> re: sleeping with other men
> You would expect her to want to have sex with someone else to test how it felt, to figure out if that was the cure to fill the empty hole that torments her. Do you think she is mentally ill, e.g. as in severe depression?
> 
> re: third baby
> You did not promise to help conceive one, did you? If she brings it up again, just tell her she is good mother and has good maternal instincts.
> 
> re: mind games
> Is she very attractive? Does she ever mention that you might bothered by the lack of sex and affection?


Conrad, I have to cut off for myself. I am so disappointed with myself that I haven't had the personal strength to pull it off.

She never asked for me to have another child with her, she's said it's something she wanted in the future, adopting or however else. 

She is very attractive to me, the past couple of years she started working out and really got in shape but I always loved her but it is hard to see her in sexy and cute outfits she's taken to over time.


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## lostLove77

Frostflower said:


> Hopefully she won’t get pregnant without a relationship that will last and nurture a baby.


FF - She talks about doing it herself... or however it may happen. 

I know my focus is still largely on her, I can't seem to break it even after 4 months!


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## Awakening2012

lostLove77 said:


> FF - She talks about doing it herself... or however it may happen.
> 
> I know my focus is still largely on her, I can't seem to break it even after 4 months!


Don't be too hard on yourself -- detachment is not easy, especially when you have kids, so you don't have the option of zero interaction. We did not have kids and I'm just beginning to detach after a year long separation, now that D is on the horizon. It is HARD when you still feel attracted/bonded to them!

Best,- A12


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## lostLove77

A12 - that's heart breaking. One it's been that long for you and you don't fully have your peace and two I'm afraid it will be a least that long for me as well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

If your tbxw has a child without a father in the picture, that will suck away resouces from your two children


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## lostLove77

Took a few days camping and fishing with my brother. Got a text that she needs to talk to me about a very hard decision that she made while on the way home. 

She got freaked out when I went through the computer and spoke to an attorney about divorce. So she didn't want me surprised to see it in the mail. Also sounds like she's getting sort of serious with a guy she's seeing. What a way to come back from a vacation. Going to be a rough night trying to sleep.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad

lostLove77 said:


> Took a few days camping and fishing with my brother. Got a text that she needs to talk to me about a very hard decision that she made while on the way home.
> 
> She got freaked out when I went through the computer and spoke to an attorney about divorce. So she didn't want me surprised to see it in the mail. Also sounds like she's getting sort of serious with a guy she's seeing. What a way to come back from a vacation. Going to be a rough night trying to sleep.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This surprises you?


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## lostLove77

No surprise I guess. Just really depressed it finally ended up like this. I'm sure it's all highly predictable but my hope just wouldn't die. I feel like a complete failure.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad

lostLove77 said:


> No surprise I guess. Just really depressed it finally ended up like this. I'm sure it's all highly predictable but my hope just wouldn't die. I feel like a complete failure.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Because of one person's flakiness and their opinion?


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## Tron

So sorry LL. 

This is her failure, not yours.


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## lostLove77

My mistakes have cost me my family and she's with someone else for her needs my self confidence is just gone. The feeling of being unloved is so strong it makes me feel unloveable. So much of my life has just disappeared. I don't even have a home that I can call a home with my girls is even gone. Sometimes I get mad at her for putting us through this then I just feel like its all my fault. Guilt, anger and fear are such horrible feelings I just want it to stop and yet I can't stop wringing me hands and heart over this. 

I know there are mistakes she has made, but she says over and over we're just too different. Sorry for the ramble, just getting emotion out
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chuck71

Always remember ... this POSOM is just a right place right time dude

he could look like Porter Wagner, it does not matter

I am absolutely sure she has cascaded you with all your faults

you know she has numerous ones herself.... 

but those are "different"

yeah WTFE ...... wasn't it a month ago or less she told you

she does not want a D but then comes along saying this

she is a goose, wakes up in new world every day

I think her D comment is a bluff and best thing for you to do

is see a lawyer ASAP and "give her what she wants"

want a reaction from her and see just how much anger is inside her?

serve her papers ......... LL this will go on and on until you stop it

and do not forget, all this chaos, it is most likely nothing to do with you

Dr. Conrad and his colleagues will stop by and offer 2x4s 

to make sure you stay on track

hang in there, it will get better .... your girls will always be your girls

and you will always be their daddy ....... a D will not change that

You may want to see if this POSOM happens to be married


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## LongWalk

Failure is an option but it is not fate. For the sake of your daughters you will be motivated
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jh52

HI LL -- I have never posted on your thread before but as I see it you have two choices.

You can start acting strong, confident, fun, loving, caring and an over good person, man, father, brother, etc -- for your daughter and yourself 

or

you can still walk around being depressed, not confident, no fun, etc.

I am not saying it's easy -- life can be a b!itch at time -- but one thing I have learned is that you have to face it head on -- and take control of your life. No one should have control of your life except you -- and you have the right to be happy.

I know you miss your family -- it can really suck -- but by continuing to act the way you are currently acting is not good for yourself or your daughter.

Unfortunately your wife may have moved on -- that is okay -- it's part of life -- live and learn from it --- that is what life is about -- learn from our past experiences and make ourselves into a better person, man and father.

Wishing you the best -- you can do this -- find happiness within yourself -- and don't ever allow anyone else to control your happiness or self worth. You as a human being have that right and choice.


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## Chuck71

:iagree:


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## Tron

LL,

How long have your W and kids lived in PA?


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## lostLove77

We have lived in PA together for 10 years. I grew up here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lostLove77

Thanks guys,
I know i'll have to man up but right now I'm just mourning a bit. I promise I won't let this kill me or ruin my relationship with the girls. No matter how dark I sometimes get.


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## Tron

I was asking about filing in Pennsylvania because that seems to be where the D is going to happen and your kids live, I wasn't sure of the duration. If your W is bluffing about filing and you reach a point mentally where you need to shake the foundation and file yourself, you really need to get the lowdown on her A. 

There are apparently some long waiting periods in PA and adultery is one of those things that gets those waived. Filing with adultery as the main cause may shake her up enough to look at you differently. No need to be too nice any more.

I hope you sell that house in DE soon so that you can move closer to your girls. Do you think a 50/50 custody situation is possible? I know your W won't like it, but you work from home, so why not try to get it.


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## lostLove77

50/50 has always been the goal. I guess we'll see if she holds up to that. The kids and insurance coverage on the kids would be the only sticking points I see and they're not major so I'm not sure why she would keep a lawyer.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lostLove77

Well just spoke to her about some of the hang ups. Some issues i hadn't thought about. She's upset about having a relatively new car when my truck was almost paid and some money her parent gave us to buy our first home. I get the home gift but I always make extra truck payments etc... to have it paid off and didn't buy other things while she shopped. Ugh, I hope we can just use a mediator. I'd rather pay out what she's looking for than give it to lawyers and take it away from my daughters.


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## lostLove77

Also got into our history again.... Interesting that she said she often thinks of the good times and our chemistry but then thinks back to things i wouldn't budge on. Moving to new jersey? No!

Well I will own that, but honestly she would just roll on it. She never yelled at me or anything. Just a slow death. God I f'd up but please hit me instead of dying slowly and leave me!


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## Frostflower

Stay strong, LL. As LongWalk said, failure is an option, not fate. And for you it is not even an option. Our children mirror what they see. Show your girls how to meet adversity head-on and come out the winner.

Hug.


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## Conrad

lostLove77 said:


> Well just spoke to her about some of the hang ups. Some issues i hadn't thought about. She's upset about having a relatively new car when my truck was almost paid and some money her parent gave us to buy our first home. I get the home gift but I always make extra truck payments etc... to have it paid off and didn't buy other things while she shopped. Ugh, I hope we can just use a mediator. I'd rather pay out what she's looking for than give it to lawyers and take it away from my daughters.


G-dammit...

Have we taught you nothing?

"I'm not ok with where this conversation is headed"

Her purpose is to blameshift and dump her anger. You engaging it gives her that release.

She simply MUST own that anger - as it's been present her entire life.

Do not allow her to dump on you.


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## lostLove77

C-man, I said no to something for the first time ever during this. I am finally seeing the signs tonight of doormat treatment.

A while ago one of her male friends flipped out on her about not taking their relationship further and she calls me upset. Fast forward to end of last week same thing happened but sounded even worse. She spoke of blocking her number to him etc... I played the fing nice guy and consoles her. Well low and behold I get my daughters tonight and my youngest has some big scratches. My mother asks where they've come from and the girls said they had a picnic last night with this guy and she fell on some rocks. WTF. So one, she's taking my girls to this unstable person and two she's back to a friendship with him. 

God da.... I need a Conrad lockdown for two weeks.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad

lostLove77 said:


> C-man, I said no to something for the first time ever during this. I am finally seeing the signs tonight of doormat treatment.
> 
> A while ago one of her male friends flipped out on her about not taking their relationship further and she calls me upset. Fast forward to end of last week same thing happened but sounded even worse. She spoke of blocking her number to him etc... I played the fing nice guy and consoles her. Well low and behold I get my daughters tonight and my youngest has some big scratches. My mother asks where they've come from and the girls said they had a picnic last night with this guy and she fell on some rocks. WTF. So one, she's taking my girls to this unstable person and two she's back to a friendship with him.
> 
> God da.... I need a Conrad lockdown for two weeks.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Read what you just wrote as many times as you need to for it to sink in.

Emerge from this cool, firm, and dispassionate.

Her problems are HER problems.

She is to dump NOTHING on you anymore.

No tales of woe about "boyfriends" - nothing about ANY posOM.

AND... no confessions of your sins.

"I'm not ok with that"

And, MEAN it.


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## lostLove77

God help me it's the only way. Today is rock bottom and I need all the strength I can find to do this and stick to these new boundaries. 

I have to get through this birthday party for the girls on Sunday where both families will be. I have to hold my $hi7 together for a few hours and be proud at the end of the day.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tron

lostLove77 said:


> God help me it's the only way. Today is rock bottom and I need all the strength I can find to do this and stick to these new boundaries.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She fired you! And yet you have been allowing her to continue to dump her $hit on you for 4 months now. It has gotten you nowhere but neck deep in $hit. 

Have you had enough already?

Find that strength!


----------



## jh52

LL -- please take this not to piss you off but from my perspective only.

She left you and fired you are her husband -- but in her mind and by your actions she has hired you back as her "best girilfriend" who can dump on you about all her boy friend issues.

Think about it -- then please do something different for your kids -- because what you are currently doing is not working and hurting you more and more.


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## Chuck71

Again I strongly recommend these threads

ReGroup

GutPunch

Zillard

We all came in together, all had children but me

so mine is a very short read

but on the one I had 'why do I feel this way'

Dec. 11th is when I turned the corner

and ReGroup's post made it happen

I noticed you started ReG's thread recently

keep it up.....it will take your mind off of her

when I was in my valley, I read posts ten hours a day

I made it through and am actually in a much better place

than I was a year ago

I am minus a wife but gained three great people I will 

always call a friend

Let everything run in your mind, there will be something

where you slam your fist down and say 'no f'ing more'

and that's why we are all here, we've been throught it

you will make it........ I promise you will make it


----------



## lostLove77

Thank you all. It has been a lifeline even if you see me make all the same mistakes. 

I spoke to her today about the girls being around this relationship. This is the same POS she was having an emotional affair with at the end of our marriage. She agreed to not having the girls around him being I can't do our custody split because of my living situation and I don't think it's fair someone else gets to spend time with them while I barely be to see them. 

On her front it's so strange that she dated around and is now thinking about a more committed relationship with him. I think I can see there will be problems there but hard not to feel replaced.

Still feeling very lonely but I'm making steps of breaking away. Removing pictures that have her in them from my computer as well as trying to remove anything with a strong tie to her. Have to minimize triggers. Time for a new start.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Awakening2012

Hi LL -

What is it about your living situation that prevents you from 50/50 custody? Sorry if you said earlier and I missed it. You're in the right place here -- take it easy on yourself and hang in there!

Best, A12


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## Chuck71

Conrad, lumber please


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## lostLove77

A - I'm stuck in another state in a vacation home we bought that I'm trying to sell. 

She just called crying and saying thus is so hard for her and she feels terrible, loves me but just can't do a relationship. Sigh, I simply said I would want to be there for her put she fired and replaced me for her support that was pretty much it. I could feel I wanted to connect with her badly yet at the same time I could not go down that emotional roller coaster anymore.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jh52

LL - just read you last two posts again. The first one states you want a new start for yourself and that it will be hard - you ask her about keeping kids away from OM - sounds like she agrees - you seem a little stronger from your post - then not an hour goes by and she calls you crying and saying she is ..........

She appears to be stuck on the same merry go round - I want a divorce - I need to leave you - she finds OM - breaks up with OM - reconnects with OM - all the time dragging you into her emotional spider web.

I don't know what she really wants or for that matter what you really want - but you are both emotionally so involved with each other - maybe it's bad or good - but if there is a divorce pending this emotional bond you both have will need to be broken in order to move on.

Of course all of the above is just my opinion.


----------



## Frostflower

lostLove77 said:


> A - I'm stuck in another state in a vacation home we bought that I'm trying to sell.
> 
> She just called crying and saying thus is so hard for her and she feels terrible, loves me but just can't do a relationship. Sigh, I simply said I would want to be there for her put she fired and replaced me for her support that was pretty much it. I could feel I wanted to connect with her badly yet at the same time I could not go down that emotional roller coaster anymore.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Good for you, LL. Hopefully your statement was the end of the phone call.

It is interesting that she says she can’t do a relationship, yet ' is now thinking about a more committed relationship with him’. She is more than a little confused.

Just out of curiosity, why was she crying? What is hard for her?


----------



## lostLove77

I think what she meant was a relationship with me and it sounds she's a bit timid about the relationship with him but fu$& it that's her problem now. 

She was saying that this is hard for her too and just wanted to tell me she loves me. She hates that she hurt me and just wants me happy and to be happy herself. Fine, she can have this freedom. I can't hope any longer. I've been with family and friends more the past two weeks than ever and I think it's also making me stronger. I wrote a heartfelt good bye on Facebook and I could t believe the people that came out of the woodwork offering support. People I though I had lost over the years.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

lostLove77 said:


> A - I'm stuck in another state in a vacation home we bought that I'm trying to sell.
> 
> She just called crying and saying thus is so hard for her and she feels terrible, loves me but just can't do a relationship. Sigh, I simply said I would want to be there for her put she fired and replaced me for her support that was pretty much it. I could feel I wanted to connect with her badly yet at the same time I could not go down that emotional roller coaster anymore.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


"I'm not ok with where this conversation is headed"

Brother... again... she FIRED you as her husband.

No more comfort.


----------



## jh52

lostLove77 said:


> I think what she meant was a relationship with me and it sounds she's a bit timid about the relationship with him but fu$& it that's her problem now.
> 
> She was saying that this is hard for her too and just wanted to tell me she loves me. She hates that she hurt me and just wants me happy and to be happy herself. Fine, she can have this freedom. I can't hope any longer. I've been with family and friends more the past two weeks than ever and I think it's also making me stronger. I wrote a heartfelt good bye on Facebook and I could t believe the people that came out of the woodwork offering support. People I though I had lost over the years.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is a start - one step in front of the other. You can and will get through this.


----------



## Tron

Have you exposed this affair to everyone?


----------



## lostLove77

Rad - I really didn't get into comforting her, I probably ky said just a bit more than I should but I guarantee it was progress. 

No exposure. Her parents know things are goin on just not the extent and I don't even know extent. I really don't want to know now. 

Taking d6 to first Phillies game! Kendrik on the bump, could be a rough game.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

lostLove77 said:


> Rad - I really didn't get into comforting her, I probably ky said just a bit more than I should but I guarantee it was progress.
> 
> No exposure. Her parents know things are goin on just not the extent and I don't even know extent. I really don't want to know now.
> 
> Taking d6 to first Phillies game! Kendrik on the bump, could be a rough game.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Talk less - do more

Quit taking her calls.


----------



## lostLove77

Got it. In fact just a minute or so I started getting mad. She got up her nerve to end it with her EA with this guy while we were married and justified her going out and such because she was miserable at home. I took a this blame while she said no its not an affair! I blamed myself wholly for this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

lostLove77 said:


> Got it. In fact just a minute or so I started getting mad. She got up her nerve to end it with her EA with this guy while we were married and justified her going out and such because she was miserable at home. I took a this blame while she said no its not an affair! I blamed myself wholly for this.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Codependent anger

You need to quit exposing your emotions to her cruelty.

Currently, she has no regard for you.

She occasionally throws you a crumb to make sure you're still her Plan B.

Put a stop to it.

You are no one's Plan B.


----------



## LongWalk

LL, remember that from a biological POV she wants to keep you hanging to prevent you being with someone new who will take resources from your common children. This is not evil just instinct.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lostLove77

I pray for the strength to get through the girls birthday party today. My stomach is already in knots lying here in bed. I cannot get my focus off of her. I want the girls to have a special day but I am miserable. 

Yesterday morning I felt so confident but after going to the baseball game and seeking all the families and couples I'm depressed. .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jh52

You can do this LL - main thing is to focus focus focus.

Focus on your girls and yourself. Act "as if" to your wife - just like you have to if she had died. In some sense the woman you married has died.

Stay strong and in control - this day belongs to your daughters and no one else.


----------



## Chuck71

Two steps forward, one step back....

this is a fight you convince yourself you can not win

although...you realize you have already taken her best shot

and you're still standing

each round will get easier for you


----------



## lostLove77

Thanks guys. The day will end and I'll still be a dad. I have to gut this out to make my time with the girls positive. I'm tired of "gutting things out". I just want to be happy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Frostflower

lostLove77 said:


> Thanks guys. The day will end and I'll still be a dad. I have to gut this out to make my time with the girls positive. I'm tired of "gutting things out". I just want to be happy.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Go to the party with your head held high and a smile on your face. Show everyone, including her, a man who is strong and confident. Fake it with everything you’ve got. 

This is a ‘gutting out’ phase. Happiness will follow.

Hug.


----------



## Tron

Frostflower said:


> Go to the party with your head held high and a smile on your face. Show everyone, including her, a man who is strong and confident. Fake it with everything you’ve got.
> 
> This is a ‘gutting out’ phase. Happiness will follow.
> 
> Hug.


:iagree:

You can do it LL.


----------



## lostLove77

Quick update. Didn't go as badly as feared or as well as I hoped. Had some small moments with my I laws where it was hard to hold it together. Was fairly cool and aloaf around her and had a good time with my girls and friends 

Leaving was so hard and she walked me out. Spoke at the car and I exposed myself too much but getting better. Was surprised when she said she hated I don't talk to her anymore. WTF? I e been talking to her way too much and have always been there for her. She also said that she didn't see it that she quit but that I had quit on her emotionally for years. I just don't fully believe hat. I know I needed work and was resistant but I wasn't a robot by any stretch. 

Go over to friends house to stay the night and for dinner and she calls twice - I reject the calls but its killing me to know why she called.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

lostLove77 said:


> I reject the calls but its killing me to know why she called.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_












It's working and you want to go against it?

If you knew how to do this, how did you end up here?


----------



## Chuck71

t/y Conrad


----------



## lostLove77

Guys, just being honest. I didn't tell her that and I'm starting the fight. I did not pick up the phone even tho I looked hard at it again this morning. Your continued coaching is helping.

Have to say, that is a lot of lumber but not too intimidating. Think you need Jack Nicholson from the Shining or something!


----------



## jh52

"She also said that she didn't see it that she quit but that I had quit on her emotionally for years."

That is her perception right or wrong.

The fact is instead of sitting you down and communicating with you -- she stepped outside of your marriage -- that is not a perception but a fact.

Glad the party went fairly well -- keep talking one step in front of the other.

YOU WILL GET THROUGH THIS.


----------



## catcalls

Hi lost

read your thread and I must say that you W is the biggest cake eater of them all. but you seem to think she is sweet and suffering. she is married to you and yet has no compunctions dating other men. how warped is that ? then she calls you to moan about her dates. how selfish is this woman and what a high pedestal you have built for her.

in your situation, i dont think i would have tolerated my spouse dating others (to find themselves) for a moment and instituted a divorce immediately. also, she is responsible for your holiday home. so my suggestion is to move back to town and pay half the mortgage on the vacation home and leave her to cover the other half. sure it will hit you financially, but it means that she also has to face up to the consequences of her decisions. you can get 50-50 custody and have weekends free.

she treats you that way because you have allowed her to do so. just because she feels a certain way does not make it the truth. you need to make her feel some harsh realities of being a cheating spouse


----------



## lostLove77

There are a lot of things I see I'll have to do to protect myself. However right now I think i'm focusing on closing off communication. I just got another call from her and haven't returned it. 

My goal is to get through this and feel ok with it before focusing on anything further. Something happened in the past few days that has really changed my perspective on this stuff.

Still hurts like hell


----------



## lostLove77

Holy $h!t. Just got a text.

"can we talk one more time, I am not sure about about anything. My mom keeps telling me I have to be sure."


----------



## lostLove77

Thinking of replying that I will talk, only together with a counselor.


----------



## LongWalk

I would reply that she is an adult who should know who she wants to eat breakfast with, and not involve her mother.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

lostLove77 said:


> she calls twice - I reject the calls but its killing me to know why she called.


I'm pretty sure I know why she called. 

And it's not about you.


----------



## lostLove77

Got an email from her mom, she had him there before the party and had wanted her parents to meet him! WTF does she want from me!?


----------



## zillard

LongWalk said:


> I would reply that she is an adult who should know who she wants to eat breakfast with, and not involve her mother.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is funny.

IF you reply at all, I would say this:

I'm not ok with having a relationship talk with anyone who doesn't know what they want.


----------



## zillard

lostlove77 said:


> got an email from her mom, she had him there before the party and had wanted her parents to meet him! Wtf does she want from me!?


plan b


----------



## lostLove77

zillard said:


> i'm pretty sure i know why she called.
> 
> And it's not about you.


why z?!


----------



## Conrad

lostLove77 said:


> why z?!


Likely hitting a bumpy patch with posOM

Wants to be sure you're her backup.


----------



## zillard

Look up


----------



## LongWalk

She is just trying to keep your testicles out of action so that you keep leaving dead mammals outside the cave door through which you are no longer allowed to pass.

Date. She is probably spying on your FB to make certain new women friends are not popping up.


----------



## Awakening2012

Hi Lost -

You said something happened that changed your perspective? What was it, if I may ask?

Best, A12


----------



## jh52

lostLove77 said:


> Holy $h!t. Just got a text.
> 
> "can we talk one more time, I am not sure about about anything. My mom keeps telling me I have to be sure."


My guess is that she made up her mind -- bringing POSOM to meet her parents says it all.

She just wants to make sure you will be her "best friend" so she can continue to dump on you and use you as her emotional sound board.

Also, just in case -- Plan B -- she wants to keep you hooked -- just enough so that you can't break away -- and start a new/better life without her.

Good luck --


----------



## Frostflower

She took him to meet her parents and later that same day started calling you to talk because she isn’t sure. Jeepers, LL!

Tell her you will talk at MC, but only when she has cut ties with OM.

Good grief.


----------



## lostLove77

Well, who knows the truth. Just spoke to her (duck!). She denies the seriousness of the relationship and that she wanted him to meet her parents, but how would her mother know at all??

Anyway, laid it out - I'm done outside of the kids if there are other men and she doesn't want to work on things with a counselor. She seems almost willing but something is holding her back (I know, I know). 

She'll get back to me after the weekend.... Well, I set my boundaries we'll see how she wants to proceed on her end. This will take a solid direction soon. I thank you all. Your support helped me through a very rough afternoon.


----------



## lostLove77

Awakening2012 said:


> Hi Lost -
> 
> You said something happened that changed your perspective? What was it, if I may ask?
> 
> Best, A12


It was when she called me the other week scared because this guy was freaking out and said he was harassing her. Then, the next week she's taking my daughters out on a picnic with him. The same guy she was having an EA with during our marriage. That was the straw!


----------



## zillard

lostLove77 said:


> It was when she called me the other week scared because this guy was freaking out and said he was harassing her. Then, the next week she's taking my daughters out on a picnic with him. The same guy she was having an EA with during our marriage. That was the straw!


Cheaters lie.

180

#30 - Do not believe any of what you hear them say and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives and do so in the most strident tones imaginable. Try to remember that they are also hurting and afraid. Try to remember that they know what they are doing is wrong and so they will say anything they can to justify their behavior.


----------



## Tron

Now you got me fired up LL!

And, with that email from your MIL, I can now safely say that the level of disrespect that your WW has shown over the past week or so truly is as bad as anything you see on this forum. 

Best friend my a$$. You need to $hitcan this limbo you're in immediately. Counseling isn't going to do a bit of good without the POSOM totally and completely out of the picture.

My recommendation is to send the MIL an email that you have had enough, that you refuse to be disrespected any more, that her daughter is a liar and a cheater, you aren't going to be her "friend" and she doesn't deserve you. Then go dark. Do not answer her phone calls EVER. Emergencies go through grandma.

I would even venture to try and schedule kid swaps without you ever having to see the b1tch.

JMO, the withdrawal she is going to be going through is going to be every bit as bad as Gutpunch's wife with Lortabs.


----------



## jh52

LL -- So what magically happens this weekend that she will make up her mind then.


----------



## Tron

lostLove77 said:


> Well, who knows the truth. Just spoke to her (duck!). She denies the seriousness of the relationship and that she wanted him to meet her parents, but how would her mother know at all??
> 
> Anyway, laid it out - I'm done outside of the kids if there are other men and she doesn't want to work on things with a counselor. She seems almost willing but something is holding her back (I know, I know).
> 
> She'll get back to me after the weekend.... Well, I set my boundaries we'll see how she wants to proceed on her end. This will take a solid direction soon. I thank you all. You're support helped me through a very rough afternoon.


After the weekend huh? What's going on this weekend? Hot date? Even another man? 

Maybe she has plans to parade all her boyfriends over to MIL's house for mom and dad approval...."How do you like this one mommy, isn't he handsome?" Ugh!


----------



## lostLove77

I have no idea, maybe 'cause it's a long weekend and she wants to reflect. I heard her say something about going to her parents this weekend. I hold no illusions to possibilities of her weekend plans and I'm not emotionally tying anything to this. She makes the decision to work or she doesn't. I would be happy if she actually wants to HONESTLY work, but if not, it's a new direction in my life.


----------



## Conrad

lostLove77 said:


> I have no idea, maybe 'cause it's a long weekend and she wants to reflect. I heard her say something about going to her parents this weekend. I hold no illusions to possibilities of her weekend plans and I'm not emotionally tying anything to this. She makes the decision to work or she doesn't. I would be happy if she actually wants to HONESTLY work, but if not, it's a new direction in my life.


I simply hate the idea "she" is given the power to decide the future of the relationship.

That's an extraordinarily weak playing hand for you.


----------



## lostLove77

True enough, but wouldn't it always be her decision if she wants to work on it or not? I can't make that for her, you could say the power was given because I said i'd be open to working on our marriage and going to counseling. That's just the truth, I set my boundaries in that we won't have a relationship if she keeps on the path that she's on. 

I don't think there is much else I can do at this point.


----------



## Conrad

lostLove77 said:


> I don't think there is much else I can do at this point.


----------



## ReGroup

lostLove77 said:


> I don't think there is much else I can do at this point.


Disagree. And Dislike.

Their is plenty that you can do. 

You're still young in the process. I been there. 

A whole new world is out there waiting for you to seize it. You decide when you want to walk out of your self imprisonment.


----------



## ReGroup

Chip has been Lumber Happy recently... 

Get with the program.


----------



## lostLove77

Not contact or support until i hear the answer I want (outside of the kids). Anything else?


----------



## lostLove77

ReGroup said:


> Disagree. And Dislike.
> 
> Their is plenty that you can do.
> 
> You're still young in the process. I been there.
> 
> A whole new world is out there waiting for you to seize it. You decide when you want to walk out of your self imprisonment.


Didn't see this Group. I get it. It was weak to let her waffle through the weekend. She knows or she doesn't.

"Do or Do not. There is no try."


----------



## Tron

The thing is LL, if you do what I suggest you are essentially proceeding on the premise that she isn't going to be part of your future. 

If or when she changes her mind or comes back to you then the decision is yours to make not hers. Who has the power then? 

This is something she is not going to like but she damn well will at least respect it.


----------



## zillard

lostLove77 said:


> I would be happy if she actually wants to HONESTLY work, but if not, it's a new direction in my life.


Watch what she does, not what she says. 

If she honestly wants to work on the relationship, there won't be much to doubt.


----------



## LongWalk

Agree with ReGroup's phrasing - self imprisonment. She must know of your suffering and she prolongs it because you allow her to retain you in reserve. How can woman make the choice of mate be a family debate. Are your in-laws going vote? Are you on Facebook? Change your status to single. You are not really married anymore?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

Tron said:


> Who has the power then?
> 
> This is something she is not going to like but she damn well will at least respect it.


Cool. Firm. Dispassionate. 

Take charge and do what needs to be done. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F04Gln02mRI


----------



## Chuck71

I loved my ex, still love who she was at one time

But who she is now, I want nothing to do with

As a man, you dictate the control, if she wanted you

trust me, she would let you know

You should cut all ties as Tron said

let her know you are done and are moving on

I will give an example later tonight on my LaD thread

on how you treat a situation where she wants a reaction from you

and turn it into her getting a reaction out of herself


----------



## Conrad

Jeez.... there's almost no need for me here anymore.

You boys are a SWAT team.

Great job.


----------



## lostLove77

Tron said:


> The thing is LL, if you do what I suggest you are essentially proceeding on the premise that she isn't going to be part of your future.
> 
> If or when she changes her mind or comes back to you then the decision is yours to make not hers. Who has the power then?
> 
> This is something she is not going to like but she damn well will at least respect it.


Guys i really love the sound of this but am struggling to take myself back. Why? I want to club myself with all that lumber, i just doesn't get through.


----------



## Tron

lostLove77 said:


> Guys i really love the sound of this but am struggling to take myself back. Why? I want to club myself with all that lumber, i just doesn't get through.


You love the sound of it because it means you'd have a backbone and you'd have your manhood back. 

How are you doing today?

You ready to throw down the gauntlet early?


----------



## lostLove77

T, she messaged me last night. She's done dating and wants to go to counseling but as Zillard spoke to, she's not enthusiastic. She's not running back into my arms. Her desire is to use the counseling to figure it out.

Went to IC today and she said this is a good thing, a good counselor will nail her down for direction. This must seem incredibly weak but is actually the first positive step in a long time.


----------



## catcalls

lostLove77 said:


> T, she messaged me last night. She's done dating and wants to go to counseling but as Zillard spoke to, she's not enthusiastic. She's not running back into my arms. Her desire is to use the counseling to figure it out.
> 
> Went to IC today and she said this is a good thing, a good counselor will nail her down for direction. This must seem incredibly weak but is actually the first positive step in a long time.


that is good and i am sure it has come directly as a result of you being detached.

perhaps now is a time to figure out what you want in a wife. is she meeting those needs. and i feel you should not take her back easily. she needs to work out why she cant be happy and that has nothing to do with you really. her inner happiness is her issue. she needs to be happy in herself. otherwise this cycle will start again after a couple of years. she is unhappy and you are to blame. also, i would expect a proper apology and remorse for cheating on you. if i were you, i would want to know how much she has been cheating on you and why. 

she probably feels that she just has to say the words and you will be waiting with open arms to take her back and shower her with love. if you do that you will essentially be rewarding her for her poor behaviour and morals and become a doormat for life. she will hold it over it and threaten to bail out again whenever she is not getting her way.

is she coming back to you because all the other options are not reliable and pliable?

if you want long term contentment you need to work out these issues and also be brave enough to divorce her if she is not meeting your needs and stepping up to the plate. you have finally gotten some measure of control, dont just give it away


----------



## Tron

catcalls said:


> that is good and i am sure it has come directly as a result of you being detached.
> 
> perhaps now is a time to figure out what you want in a wife. is she meeting those needs. and i feel you should not take her back easily. she needs to work out why she cant be happy and that has nothing to do with you really. her inner happiness is her issue. she needs to be happy in herself. otherwise this cycle will start again after a couple of years. she is unhappy and you are to blame. also, i would expect a proper apology and remorse for cheating on you. if i were you, i would want to know how much she has been cheating on you and why.
> 
> she probably feels that she just has to say the words and you will be waiting with open arms to take her back and shower her with love. if you do that you will essentially be rewarding her for her poor behaviour and morals and become a doormat for life. she will hold it over it and threaten to bail out again whenever she is not getting her way.
> 
> is she coming back to you because all the other options are not reliable and pliable?
> 
> if you want long term contentment you need to work out these issues and also be brave enough to divorce her if she is not meeting your needs and stepping up to the plate. you have finally gotten some measure of control, dont just give it away


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

If the POSOM is still in the picture then her mind is still on him not on you or the M. No level of MC is going to help if he is not gone. You understand this, right? That means NO CONTACT with POSOM or anyone else she might have gone out with in the past several months. The EA/PA needs to be over and she needs to be open to you looking at everything; email, phone, facebook, etc. No secrets! If she won't do it then you cannot trust her and this R is most likely doomed.

I have successfully traveled the MC road. There wasn't much discord in my M, but a lot of hurt feelings. It would appear the same between you two. For this reason you need to move in together ASAP. This is for multiple reasons, (1) so you can keep an eye on POSOM/EA's/PA's and (2) so you can work on what you learn in MC daily with your WW. 

You cannot allow her to string you along in a false R by going to MC once a week and having no other interaction. That is going to set you back another 4 months when this R falls apart, and it will fall apart. 

No girl's night outs. When you go out, you do it together. 

She needs IC too. MC without IC for her is not a recipe for success.

Do you remember this:



Tron said:


> #3's...and lots of them!!!
> 
> LL, her unhappiness is self inflicted. And if she dumps it on you then she's also a blame-shifter.
> 
> Cake-eater, cheater, attention *****, and now blame-shifter.
> 
> Pretty ugly picture developing.


add liar and elements of co-dependence to the list. A MC alone is not going to be able to help her with all these issues. 

She needs to work on these things herself or, as catcalls mentioned, you will be right back in this same position 1 or 2 years from now.

Good luck and keep us posted. I am praying for you.


----------



## Tron

LL,

You might consider deleting that Jack Nicholson photo. It must be a really big file or something, cause it is really messing with my screen formatting. Having a hard time reading and posting on this page.

...That helped, thanks!


----------



## LongWalk

You can continue 180 in MC. Let her do the talking. You must be curious to hear about how she started dating. How many guys did she test out. What was wrong with them. Are you merely the best of a bad batch?

I suggest that you do not react angrily to anything she says but try to get her to talk. What on earth has been going on in her head? Keep your own answer sincere and brief without being curt.


----------



## lostLove77

Walk, I don't know how much faith I have. I could take hearing the truth if I felt she truly wanted to reconcile but I think she knows she's still lost but is trying to take steps to dealing with her issues. Our relationship is secondary at this point. I think this is actually a good thing in a sense because like everyone said she can't be happy with me if she still has these issues. 

I'm cautious and want to know the truth but at this point I'm too mixed up to think through be next step clearly. I will regroup later, right now it's drinks and yard work. No danger there!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Frostflower

Let her get the help she needs to figure out who she is and what she wants. Worry about R if and when it comes up. Meanwhile keep working on you so that you are strong enough to handle whatever happens.


----------



## Chuck71

LL It seems you are slowly getting to the point you are wanting to be

we all know it is hard, I mean you are about to treat your once angel

as a man and hold her accountable, that is hard when you are a recovering Co-D

I remember clear as day my first two loves before I met my ex in '97

In each one there was a break up and at first I did the beg n plead spill

then I walked away, got on with my life and met someone else

I kid you not, both came after me like a train out of control

because they lose that control they thought they had over me

It is healthy for a couple to be best friends

but right now, your Ws version of best friend is more "girl friend"

everything I am saying, you already know, you figured it out awhile back

all that is troubling you is pulling the trigger

Been there, am quite sure Tron and LW has too, I know the other posters have

We all fear the unknown but if you look back, the times you faced the unknown

more often than not, you enjoyed the results


----------



## ReGroup

Chuck71 said:


> LL It seems you are slowly getting to the point you are wanting to be
> 
> we all know it is hard, I mean you are about to treat your once angel
> 
> as a man and hold her accountable, that is hard when you are a recovering Co-D
> 
> I remember clear as day my first two loves before I met my ex in '97
> 
> In each one there was a break up and at first I did the beg n plead spill
> 
> then I walked away, got on with my life and met someone else
> 
> I kid you not, both came after me like a train out of control
> 
> because they lose that control they thought they had over me
> 
> It is healthy for a couple to be best friends
> 
> but right now, your Ws version of best friend is more "girl friend"
> 
> everything I am saying, you already know, you figured it out awhile back
> 
> all that is troubling you is pulling the trigger
> 
> Been there, am quite sure Tron and LW has too, I know the other posters have
> 
> We all fear the unknown but if you look back, the times you faced the unknown
> 
> more often than not, you enjoyed the results


:iagree:

As always, I agree with Chucky.

My first girlfriend did this same exact thing. 

Once you remove yourself, everything that you brought to the table becomes apparent.

Remove yourself and they'll take notice.

If they don't act on it, sharpen up... learn your lesson well and be ready for the next lucky lady.


----------



## Conrad

lostLove77 said:


> she can't be happy with me if she still has these issues.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No... if she still has these issues, she cannot be happy - period.

It has NOTHING to do with you.


----------



## Chuck71

Her unhappiness has nothing to do with you

you just happened to be the easiest to blame

as Conrad would say, "let her own her unhappiness"


----------



## lostLove77

Conrad said:


> No... if she still has these issues, she cannot be happy - period.
> 
> It has NOTHING to do with you.


I understand that. I guess i'm being selfish and relating that to our relationship. 

First available counseling session on thursday. I'm nervous about the session and nervous about waiting. It's strange - ever since she's taken this path she's actually become more standoffish and kinda pissy. Before it was happy go-lucky, happily had moved on (although she told me that she's better at hiding things).

Just strange, trying to focus on doing everything I can for myself, the girls and work.


----------



## Conrad

lostLove77 said:


> I understand that. I guess i'm being selfish and relating that to our relationship.
> 
> First available counseling session on thursday. I'm nervous about the session and nervous about waiting. It's strange - ever since she's taken this path she's actually become more standoffish and kinda pissy. Before it was happy go-lucky, happily had moved on (although she told me that she's better at hiding things).
> 
> Just strange, trying focusing on doing everything I can for myself, the girls and work.


Let her be pissy.

Who cares?


----------



## lostLove77

So, spoke to her about some summer camps for the girls and I ask about her still being simply friends with these guys. She saus she doesbr want to talj about it and i press her. It pisses her off. She actually started to say something like "do you want me to sit here all by myself in PA". "If I said I don't want to talk about something don't press it". You don't ever listen and appreciate my feelings, if you love me you'd trust what I told you. I cut off all damaging relationships.... Sigh, I was afraid of her anger and reverted. 

She is open to going to counseling but at this point I don't see it so much as couples counseling but something else I can't describe. 

I think I have to cut loose but I haven't quite bought into it yet.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

lostLove77 said:


> Sigh, I was afraid of her anger and reverted.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lostLove77

I know it Rad. I just was holding onto hopes of working on things but she's not even close. 
I could hear myself saying what the hell u do feel this way. Don't back off. That voice lost. 

Ill go to counseling but I'm done reaching out. I'm taking this session as opportunity to let out pain and ab opportunity to heal. Thus counselor might have a fresh viewpoint and who knows WTF she'll say to him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lostLove77

Maybe the sessions will help HER with her own issues. I keep getting ahead of myself but I'm not sure she wants to work on herself. She feels so wronged. 

I've lost my loving wife. I see glimpses of her but its just pieces.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

lostLove77 said:


> Maybe the sessions will help HER with her own issues. I keep getting ahead of myself but I'm not sure she wants to work on herself. She feels so wronged.
> 
> I've lost my loving wife. I see glimpses of her but its just pieces.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Just stop.

Think of yourself as a fly-on-the-wall at the sessions.

You're just observing.

Observe her reactions.

More importantly, observe your own.

Like right now... you sound almost panicked.


----------



## lostLove77

Guess I am but not as frantic. Too emotionally tired. Her reactions are her pulling away. She's showing me, where this is going my heart just won't accept. Time to crash on the sofa with the girls and pass out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

lostLove77 said:


> Guess I am but not as frantic. Too emotionally tired. Her reactions are her pulling away. She's showing me, where this is going my heart just won't accept. Time to crash on the sofa with the girls and pass out.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I cannot emphasize this enough.

If she's to return, she needs you to be strong.

You need to show her you don't care, so she'll feel safe.

I KNOW it's counterintuitive when you're hurting like this.

But, it's the law of the jungle.


----------



## lostLove77

Damn it, I've had my girls pulled away from me, forced into a new town but I'm going to do what I have to do to sell this house and get my time back with the girls. I pray for the inner strength to get through the dark times.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Frostflower

lostLove77 said:


> Damn it, I've had my girls pulled away from me, forced into a new town but I'm going to do what I have to do to sell this house and get my time back with the girls. I pray for the inner strength to get through the dark times.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You will get through it, LL. You’re stronger than you think. 

Just a thought, but perhaps she doesn’t want to talk about it because she feels regret about what she did and it is painful for her to talk about it. 

On the other hand she said she has cut off ‘all damaging relationships’. How does she define ‘damaging’?


----------



## lostLove77

Frost, I think I was trying to say damaging to any therapy we had or will do. 

I just feel more and more coldness from her at times. Tonight after dropping off the girls it was cute and happy with little care for anything that I did. So I have no idea what to expect on Thursday but it should be very interesting. 

Had a wonderful holiday weekend with the girls and family but I can't shake this dark cloud hanging over my head. Seeing all the families in the beach, couples walking together. Constant triggers.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Frostflower

It is hard to see happy families and couples when you are going through this. Focus on your girls and try to keep busy. That dark cloud will dissipate.


----------



## Chuck71

Every time I went through a break-up, happy families / couples

come out of the danm woodwork, never fails

My '94 break-up was rough but I was in my early 20's but what

amazed me, two people in my sociology class started dating

she was a Mormon, he was an atheist..... yeah those two are together

WTF did I do wrong?? LOL

You have the tools to make it and you will, just takes time

the days get better, mine did..... had you told me six months ago

I would be where I am today, I'd recommend a straightjacket for you


----------



## LongWalk

Religious women put on a pose. But inside their desires are just as strong. All of the lectures about sin can make it even more attractive. Most Christian faiths don't talk about H*ll fire anymore
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chuck71

Visit a Baptist church in TN, AL, GA, SC or MS. Bang the pulpit treat your body as a temple, followed by walking outside after sermon and lighting up. Am I saying that is wrong? Not in the least. But when I get the dirty looks when I say 'yes I enjoy a drink', I'm the ashole for calling that out. 

I am a firm believer in God. Mankind would not have advanced to this point without divine intervention. Do I have issues with organized religion? Yes indeed. Key word is 'organized'


----------



## Conrad

lostLove77 said:


> I just feel more and more coldness from her at times. Tonight after dropping off the girls it was cute and happy with little care for anything that I did.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Focused on her.


----------



## Tron

lostLove77 said:


> Tonight after dropping off the girls it was cute and happy with little care for anything that I did. _Posted via Mobile Device_


That is supposed to be you. Fake it if you have to.


----------



## catcalls

lostLove77 said:


> Frost, I think I was trying to say damaging to any therapy we had or will do.
> 
> I just feel more and more coldness from her at times. Tonight after dropping off the girls it was cute and happy with little care for anything that I did. So I have no idea what to expect on Thursday but it should be very interesting.
> 
> Had a wonderful holiday weekend with the girls and family but I can't shake this dark cloud hanging over my head. Seeing all the families in the beach, couples walking together. Constant triggers.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


is she really such a catch that you feel lucky you have/had her in the first place? if yes, then it is time to wake up and see her for what she is. a flaky, immature woman who is disrespecting you at every turn. if not, then why are you allowing her to dictate when she comes back.

I dont understand why you are not more angry and furious towards her. In your position, I would want her to show a lot of remorse and grovelling before even considering letting her back. she thinks she is doing you a favour by coming back. 

I suspect a lot of your unhappiness is because you feel helpless and out of control, but it is a prison of your own making.

tell her that the function of this marriage is not solely to make her happy. she has been taking and taking and now it is time for her to give back something to the marriage if she wants to come back.

tell her that you will know she is serious about coming back and working on this marriage only if
a] she stops 'dating' other men
b] she gives you all the details of her 'dates'
c] she gives you a proper apology and is fully remorseful of what she has done
d] writes a NC letter to all the 'dates' and 'suitors'
e] also apologises to your close family for her conduct
f] agrees to spend time alone in the vacation rental away from the kids living the lifestyle you had to endure to understand what she needlessly put you through

i dont have any hope that your wife to agree to any of these things much less consider it.

but you need to realise that she is not a catch, she may be cutesy and feminine, but there is not much value of virtue in her.

you can do better. just take control of the situation by telling her you want a divorce and move on. whatever you do, dont grovel and ask her to come back with no reparations or apologies on her part.


----------



## lostLove77

Cat, everything you said is on point. I do worship this woman. Why i continue to do so, IDK. Maybe my self worth is just shot to hell.

She is not ready to come back or do anything remotely close to what you listed. I'm unsure what will be said to the therapist on thursday. I'm going to see what is said at this session and move from there. But right now, I just don't see any progress. She only reaches out to me about stuff with the kids and minor good wishes, no real connection.

She mentioned today how painfully lonely she was this weekend, yet she could have driven up to see her parents/relatives OR come to see US!


----------



## Conrad

lostLove77 said:


> She mentioned today how painfully lonely she was this weekend,


Cry me a river.


----------



## lostLove77

That really did make me laugh out loud! Cube-mates turned around and asked "What?"


----------



## Tron

Conrad said:


> Cry me a river.


LMFAO! :rofl:


----------



## catcalls

lostLove77 said:


> Cat, everything you said is on point. I do worship this woman. Why i continue to do so, IDK. Maybe my self worth is just shot to hell.
> 
> She is not ready to come back or do anything remotely close to what you listed. I'm unsure what will be said to the therapist on thursday. I'm going to see what is said at this session and move from there. But right now, I just don't see any progress. She only reaches out to me about stuff with the kids and minor good wishes, no real connection.
> 
> She mentioned today how painfully lonely she was this weekend, yet she could have driven up to see her parents/relatives OR come to see US!


it is good that at least rationally you can see that she is a poor wife. if i were to ask you this question at the time of your separation,' how much time are you willing to give her to resolve her 'feelings'? ' what would your answer be
* as long as she needs
* 1 month
* 2 months
* 6 months
* a year 
* more than a year

what would be your answer now. if you still answer as long as she needs, then you are in deep trouble.

it seems that you are happy (for want of a better word) to be passive and let her steer the course of your marriage. was it this way when you were together. that you let her do what she felt was right because it was easier, less hassle or to keep the peace.

it is probably a fault of society as well, especially western society, which brings up men to be sensitive, removes accountability from women especially and asks you to be considerate to her needs. anger is seen as a failure and being angry (even with good reason) is considered abusive, especially if you are a man.

Are you getting any pressure from say your parents on challenging her wanton ways and putting an end to it? or is everyone just keeping their noses out of it, trying to nice her way back.

were you always this passive and devoid of anger? or has marriage made you this way. are you worried that if you show signs or anger and place demands on her she would move further away. not sure how much further she can move. she seems to be dating other men and i would bet has slept with a few too. for god's sake, she is taking your kids and her other man on picnics. how can you be so passive about this and not erupt. 

you really need to work on your self-preservation instincts. i wonder if you are depressed. the first suggestion from me is to be proactive and move back into your house. if she objects tell her to go and live in the vacation house as she wants the separation. you have a legal right to be there, go and reclaim your space and your household. do it smartly and beware of her trying to set you up as abusive or violent to get you out. perhaps some other members can advise here.

you need to do something to make you feel that you can wrest control of your life and the direction it is headed. doing simple things and setting firm boundaries is one. do you really want your daughters to have the same idea of men as she does. essentially weak, easy to control and expendable.

talk to your friends, parents get support from all means possible. work on yourself.start small and soon you will learn how empowering it is to reassert yourself. she may be more attracted to you then, but then you will also have more options

i suggest you go to the MMSL board and post in their 911 section. they are pretty good in these matters and give you lot of practical advice


----------



## Conrad

catcalls said:


> it seems that you are happy (for want of a better word) to be passive and let her steer the course of your marriage. was it this way when you were together.


Lost,

Read this as many times as you need to.

THAT is the dynamic that MUST change if she is to find herself attracted to you again.

When we say "work on yourself", that's what we mean.

Have you read my "transaction" thread?

It's about you.


----------



## Tron

How you doing LL? Fly on the wall yesterday?


----------



## lostLove77

Hi guys. Cat you make great points and I'm honestly still trying to sort through everything. 

Tron, the session was mostly background information on our past but he did get into our goals for the therapy. She started with very loose terms and it wasn't a good start. She spoke to being open about talking about us but she wanted us to be able to be loving friends and parents...

Towards the end it came up again and the counselor said he felt good about things and I disagreed. I said I really didn't understand our mutual goals. That it seemed she had such pessimistic outlook. He immediately hooked into that and asked her if she was looking for a rubber stamp that she tried or I she was really open to working on this. Her response was a strong positive. She respects me too much to do that. It was the first time I heard sincere feelings about us. 

Afterwards we went to her house and I played with the girls and put them to bed. We then spoke for a while. She opened up a lot about how badly she feels for her mistakes and I appreciated the but said my focus was our commitment to working on the things that got us here. Her warmth was very comforting and scared me at the same time. We're both scared and I think it will take time to trust each other again, even with a strong affection there.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lostLove77

She's reaching out a lot more but I can tell its still guarded. It's frustrating but I'm working on responding in an open way but removing any kind of neediness. I really have to work on that. 

It's funny I was the furtherest thing from needy and she was always looking for affirmations and I couldn't understand it. Well, I get it now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Awakening2012

lostLove77 said:


> She's reaching out a lot more but I can tell its still guarded. It's frustrating but I'm working on responding in an open way but removing any kind of neediness. I really have to work on that.
> 
> It's funny I was the furtherest thing from needy and she was always looking for affirmations and I couldn't understand it. Well, I get it now.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hi LL -

It is understandable you would both feel guarded, but it does sound like there may be hope for you guys. Not to get your expectations up, but at least you are communicating fairly well in MC and there does seem to be a mutual interest in seeing if the marriage can be mended. What it would take for R to be possible, only you know, but it will be good to consider your non-negotiables -- do you have some?

Best Wishes, A12


----------



## Conrad

Dating other men must stop ASAP for it to mean squat.


----------



## lostLove77

That was my one condition for even speaking. As for reconciliation - I have t thought of anything yet.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Frostflower

lostLove77 said:


> That was my one condition for even speaking. As for reconciliation - I have t thought of anything yet.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Has she stopped dating others?

Go slow and, as Conrad says, observe.


----------



## Conrad

Lost,

It does sound like she's foundering and hoping for some sort of leadership from you.

If you've let her dictate the terms of the relationship to this point, she's likely afraid.


----------



## lostLove77

Conrad, one of her biggest hurts was that dictated too much in the past. My next step, if I wanted to set the tone would leave me to file and honestly I'm not ready for it. I know I'm making some progress in processing this but I have a ways to go. 

My neice is almost done with her bachors in psycology and she started me on making a list if 3 positive things from the day before bed. Today my #3 is:
I know I'm a good man and father and deserve to be loved for who I am. 

I just wish that love was streaming from my wife. And to be honest we are having very open communication but she doesn't have that deep feeling of intimacy yet.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Frostflower

lostLove77 said:


> Conrad, one of her biggest hurts was that dictated too much in the past. My next step, if I wanted to set the tone would leave me to file and honestly I'm not ready for it. I know I'm making some progress in processing this but I have a ways to go.
> 
> My neice is almost done with her bachors in psycology and she started me on making a list if 3 positive things from the day before bed. Today my #3 is:
> I know I'm a good man and father and deserve to be loved for who I am.
> 
> I just wish that love was streaming from my wife. And to be honest we are having very open communication but she doesn't have that deep feeling of intimacy yet.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She may have it, LL, but may wary of showing it yet.


----------



## Conrad

lostLove77 said:


> Conrad, one of her biggest hurts was that dictated too much in the past. My next step, if I wanted to set the tone would leave me to file and honestly I'm not ready for it. I know I'm making some progress in processing this but I have a ways to go.
> 
> My neice is almost done with her bachors in psycology and she started me on making a list if 3 positive things from the day before bed. Today my #3 is:
> I know I'm a good man and father and deserve to be loved for who I am.
> 
> I just wish that love was streaming from my wife. And to be honest we are having very open communication but she doesn't have that deep feeling of intimacy yet.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It's not possible to nice her into it.


----------



## lostLove77

Conrad said:


> It's not possible to nice her into it.


Agreed - so let me ask you about this upcoming situation, what would your focus be in interactions with her.

Going to go over there for dinner with her and the girls thursday night (counselor is not available this week) with a bottle of wine for dinner and after the girls go to bed.

To boil down my understanding of her perspective:
She's stopped all dating and in relation to us, wants to work with the counselor first and foremost to work through our troubles to remain close friends and co-parents with an open (but pessimistic) mind to our relationship after working on individual issues. She's still sending text about typical daily stuff with the girls and her job but not really much on the personal side. 

I liked you Transactions thread and am trying to change my behavior with each Transaction but sometimes get lost in my direction. The things I've been focusing on are being as open as I can by communicating and doing more listening. What i've had trouble changing is being reactionary (the whole 50,000').


----------



## Conrad

I think having the wine in reserve isn't a bad idea.

After the kids go to bed, I might simply make a move on her.

Did she invite you to have sex when you first started dating, or did you make it clear that's what you wanted - without words?


----------



## lostLove77

Not quite sure how to summarize this evenings conversations but I think I'm at my breaking point and time to speak to lawyers. She is more concerned with being "friends". I feel no true remorse but a desire to be rid of guilt. Well, here comes your beloved freedom. May it make you happy. 

Ill try to do a point by point tomorrow. Right now I'm just .... Pissed and devestated.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Frostflower

I’m so sorry, LL. Hug.


----------



## Awakening2012

Sorry, LL! Thinking of you, and sending courage and strength.


----------



## zillard

Those feelings are normal. Don't bury them. Let youself feel them tonight... Without involving her. 

Let it out. And tackle tomorrow tomorrow.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

lostLove77 said:


> Not quite sure how to summarize this evenings conversations but I think I'm at my breaking point and time to speak to lawyers. She is more concerned with being "friends". I feel no true remorse but a desire to be rid of guilt. Well, here comes your beloved freedom. May it make you happy.
> 
> Ill try to do a point by point tomorrow. Right now I'm just .... Pissed and devestated.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The relationship - as it stands - is working fine for her.

Do something about it.


----------



## lostLove77

So numb and can't sleep. I need to find a focus for my next step but too emotional and tired to find it. 

Feels so cold, thank you for all your support.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Awakening2012

lostLove77 said:


> So numb and can't sleep. I need to find a focus for my next step but too emotional and tired to find it.
> 
> Feels so cold, thank you for all your support.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hang in there LL -- we've all been through our own version of this gamut of painful feelings (and insomnia -- ugh!), and you'll get through it. Keep posting, and take things a day at a time -- try not to project into fears or anxiety about the future. 

Take good care of yourself -- get some exercise, and go get a massage, if you can. It helps! 

Best Wishes, - A12


----------



## Chuck71

Remain focused.......now it's your time


----------



## lostLove77

I probably should get a voice recorder to be able to remember the details of these calls but I don't think i'd have the guts to listen over again. 

But it generally started that I felt like we were starting to connect in some ways and the conversation turned to the all might Facebook. She had sent an invite long ago to her new account and I told her I thought it might be fun again. Well she responded a bit apprehensively about Facebook in general and how it's getting out of control and she feels like people are invading her privacy and it causes too many questions and told me she didn't want me to get upset about some guys posting things on her threads. 

This lead to her saying she was still friends and such with this guy she had her emotional (and later while separated possible physical) affair. No relationship but she would always consider him a good friend.

I pressed if any of her relationships were physical and she drew a line and said she didn't want any of her answers used against her, i guess that pretty much tells me my answer.

Really it boils down to a few things for her.
She feels marriage and relationships didn't work for her. She lost herself and in her words she needs to feel that someone is inspired to be silly and warm with her. She's not ready to be in a relationship and wants her freedom.

There is another counseling session scheduled for next week - now that he has a lot of the ground work I think I want to go to this session with her feelings above as a starting point and see where it goes. I feel I have full expectations for a divorce but we'll see if lawyers are needed. Who knows what else will be said.


----------



## Chuck71

I am sorry you are now at this point

but it is a needed cog in the process wheel

I mentioned other threads you may want to check out

here is one you HtG need to (re)read: lostlove77


----------



## Conrad

lostLove77 said:


> I probably should get a voice recorder to be able to remember the details of these calls but I don't think i'd have the guts to listen over again.
> 
> But it generally started that I felt like we were starting to connect in some ways and the conversation turned to the all might Facebook. She had sent an invite long ago to her new account and I told her I thought it might be fun again. Well she responded a bit apprehensively about Facebook in general and how it's getting out of control and she feels like people are invading her privacy and it causes too many questions and told me she didn't want me to get upset about some guys posting things on her threads.
> 
> This lead to her saying she was still friends and such with this guy she had her emotional (and later while separated possible physical) affair. No relationship but she would always consider him a good friend.
> 
> I pressed if any of her relationships were physical and she drew a line and said she didn't want any of her answers used against her, i guess that pretty much tells me my answer.
> 
> Really it boils down to a few things for her.
> She feels marriage and relationships didn't work for her. She lost herself and in her words she needs to feel that someone is inspired to be silly and warm with her. She's not ready to be in a relationship and wants her freedom.
> 
> There is another counseling session scheduled for next week - now that he has a lot of the ground work I think I want to go to this session with her feelings above as a starting point and see where it goes. I feel I have full expectations for a divorce but we'll see if lawyers are needed. Who knows what else will be said.


Put the papers on her desk by the early part of next week.

She is jacking you around.


----------



## GutPunch

Conrad said:


> Put the papers on her desk by the early part of next week.
> 
> She is jacking you around.


Yes...She is clearly pulling your chain. 

FILE


----------



## Awakening2012

lostLove77 said:


> Really it boils down to a few things for her.
> She feels marriage and relationships didn't work for her. She lost herself and in her words she needs to feel that someone is inspired to be silly and warm with her. She's not ready to be in a relationship and wants her freedom.


This sounds remarkably like Bullwinkle's WS's professed need for "self-actualization" -- the old "it's not you, it's me, I just decided marriage isn't for me" (blaming all their unhappiness on the marriage = a lame, disloyal excuse for giving up on the marriage without trying to work on themselves or the relationship).


----------



## lostLove77

Awakening2012 said:


> This sounds remarkably like Bullwinkle's WS's professed need for "self-actualization" -- the old "it's not you, it's me, I just decided marriage isn't for me" (blaming all their unhappiness on the marriage = a lame, disloyal excuse for giving up on the marriage without trying to work on themselves or the relationship).


This may be very true, but doesn't make me feel better...
Any stories if what happens 2-3 years down the line in these situations? Honestly not asking out of hope but wonder how WS feels after time.


----------



## lostLove77

GutPunch said:


> Yes...She is clearly pulling your chain.
> 
> FILE


Can you guys elaborate on this? She's doing this because it makes her feel better about herself while doing nothing for me?


----------



## Conrad

lostLove77 said:


> Can you guys elaborate on this? She's doing this because it makes her feel better about herself while doing nothing for me?


Does the dynamic between you two need to change?


----------



## Awakening2012

lostLove77 said:


> This may be very true, but doesn't make me feel better...
> Any stories if what happens 2-3 years down the line in these situations? Honestly not asking out of hope but wonder how WS feels after time.


Hi LL - 

Sorry, I did not mean to be unhelpful. I think the message a few of us are trying to convey is that you can't mind-read her, control her or her feelings, or predict the future. I may be wrong, but I don't think there is any "standard" outcome or pattern in these situations such as yours and BW's, each is unique. Do you see how the more you yearn after her and pine for her, the more control she has over you? I understand that it is hard to hide those genuine feelings you still have for her and stop longing for her to reciprocate (felt that way too). But the more she sees you going about your life, not making your happiness dependent on her and whatever is going on with her, not instantly reacting when she pushes you buttons -- the more she might stop withdrawing and possibly step towards you. Easier said than done, I know.

What the others are saying is, she may respect you more (and you gain self-respect) if you go ahead and file for divorce. Nothing says you have to go through with it, but she needs to see that you are willing to give her what she wants. Such action would be drawing a firm boundary and sending a clear message: if she cannot re-commit to the marriage, then you're outta there, because you are not OK with being devalued as a husband. 

What do you think?

Best Wishes, - A12


----------



## lostLove77

Thanks A, i didn't take it as not helping. I'm just picking at it.

Deep in my heart I feel she will not be stepping towards me but as Chuck pointed out, it's my time to heal.


----------



## lostLove77

Just a quick quote from this morning for amusement (this honestly pulls like crazy at my heart strings but honestly does little for me):

"You are one of the handful of people that are truly in my heart. If I see you suffering I want to hurt the one causing it, which now is me. I hate myself because of this"


----------



## Conrad

lostLove77 said:


> Thanks A, i didn't take it as not helping. I'm just picking at it.
> 
> Deep in my heart I feel she will not be stepping towards me but as Chuck pointed out, it's my time to heal.


Does the dynamic between you two need to change?

Read her words again.

She wants you to REASSURE her that "everything is ok"

That means everything IS ok FOR HER.

Is it for you?


----------



## lostLove77

Conrad said:


> Does the dynamic between you two need to change?
> 
> Read her words again.
> 
> She wants you to REASSURE her that "everything is ok"
> 
> That means everything IS ok FOR HER.
> 
> Is it for you?


No. Furthest from ok I've ever been.


----------



## Conrad

lostLove77 said:


> No. Furthest from ok I've ever been.


Change the dynamic.


----------



## lostLove77

Ok, so late last night i get another text "Hope you had a nice day". WTF - yeah, terrific day balling my eyes out. Thanks. (no i didn't respond).

I understand what you mean about the "crumbs" now. I thought i did before but it's really connecting now. I long for any contact with her, it's comfort and I miss it when not receiving it, yet what I was getting were general niceties you'd give to a stranger. No emotional connection.

I know it doesn't matter but I keep asking myself why she does this. 
I literally couldn't stop shaking yesterday.


----------



## Chuck71

She wants you as Plan B / girl friend

crash the party


----------



## Conrad

lostLove77 said:


> Ok, so late last night i get another text "Hope you had a nice day". WTF - yeah, terrific day balling my eyes out. Thanks. (no i didn't respond).
> 
> I understand what you mean about the "crumbs" now. I thought i did before but it's really connecting now. I long for any contact with her, it's comfort and I miss it when not receiving it, yet what I was getting were general niceties you'd give to a stranger. No emotional connection.
> 
> I know it doesn't matter but I keep asking myself why she does this.
> I literally couldn't stop shaking yesterday.


AND... in the past, you've "escalated" those crumbs into something much more than they are, while she keeps you conveniently on a string.


----------



## Awakening2012

lostLove77 said:


> Just a quick quote from this morning for amusement (this honestly pulls like crazy at my heart strings but honestly does little for me):
> 
> "You are one of the handful of people that are truly in my heart. If I see you suffering I want to hurt the one causing it, which now is me. I hate myself because of this"


This "crocodile tears" BS makes me sick! My XH did this kind of shyte to me for over a year -- and even on the day of the divorce. "Oh, agony! I am hurting so bad that I'm causing you pain! I can never forgive myself!" It is such a load of crap -- self-serving platitudes to ease their own guilt while twisting the knife and torturing us emotionally. Don't buy it for one second. She fired you as her source of emotional support.


----------



## Chuck71

A12.....he was wanting you to take away his guilt


----------



## Frostflower

I agree, LL. The crumbs are to ease her guilt. They really have nothing to do with you. She wants to feel better about what she is doing. 

Not answering the text was wise. Borrowing A12’s words, next time she tells you how hard this is for her, try, “There is nothing I can do about that. You fired me as your emotional support."


----------



## Awakening2012

Chuck71 said:


> A12.....he was wanting you to take away his guilt


Yes, totally! And at my expense, in terms of emotional strain  When I would call him on it he would act all innocent and oblivious to the pain these overtures would cause me, like "it was never my intent to hurt you." BS! He knew full well, that pretending it is painful for him to leave would perpetuate my torment by eliciting false hope that maybe there is still some remote chance he might change his mind. That behaviour on his part is on my list of resentments I'll have to discard one day... 

Seriously they want to you to pity them and feel sorry for them, when they are the ones bailing on the marriage? Gimme a BREAK!!!! :rant:

Er...so that explains why I have a very low tolerance for this crap when I hear about other walk-aways dishing it out to their left-behind spouses.


----------



## Chuck71

A12, mine told me she couldn't leave the house and me unless she knew I 

'could make it on my own' really! I bet in her mind, I left her

the first time I "cut her"-as in Rocky IV, Rocky vs. Drago

Christmas Eve, first time I left her high n dry

very soon after I left for good minus periodic home checks till D final

broke my heart to do that to her but it was the first step in stepping outside myself

I knew I was going to make it when she sent me an ER email (no pic like Mrs. ReG)

sounding like she was in peril, dog bite to the bone

my reply, "Use peroxide, bye"


----------



## zillard

Chuck71 said:


> A12, mine told me she couldn't leave the house and me unless she knew I
> 
> 'could make it on my own' really!


Mine pulled the same thing. I was ready. 

Z - I WILL get over you. I know the difference between what I want and what I need.

She looked like I hit her in the face with a shovel.


----------



## ReGroup

Mine said: You want me to move on? Do you... Do you?

Me: Go right ahead.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Awakening2012

ReGroup said:


> Mine said: You want me to move on? Do you... Do you?
> 
> Me: Go right ahead.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Barrrrffffffffff!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!issed:issed:


----------



## Chuck71

ReGroup said:


> Mine said: You want me to move on? Do you... Do you?
> 
> Me: Go right ahead.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And she thinks of you more now than ever in past


----------



## lostLove77

So much has happened I'm having a hard time yet again processing all this. I know we are both in a very dangerous place right now. 

I got a phone call on Thurs from her and she was very sweet. Something seemed different. She seemed more open and asked me to lunch prior to our daughters concert on fri. 

Late fri morning I get a call and she's very upset. Turns out posom had freaked out yet again because she broke things off completely. Launching a full smear campaign against her. One of the things that was interesting that he was saying shes a full blown cheater, she cheated on me with him and then other guys on him. Can you believe someone like that? 

She was afraid he'd reach out to me. So, I took the opportunity to punish myself. I asked her to tell me what's been going on before he does. Turns out after the separation they became physical/saying ily but she was still dating others. 

So I don't know what really made her stop everything and tell me she was open to seeing a counselor but now I'm just conflicted on so many levels. 

I somewhat pray he reaches out to me so I can show him how I feel about guys messing around with a married woman. 

Supposed to see the counselor on wed - my mind is racing in every direction. I'm dying to fight for my family but obviously have major issues.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LongWalk

She is only shamed by her reputation. If you take her back, you improve her reputation because she is a married woman and mother. If she is single and has a history of being dumped or dumping, her LTR capital will be diminish. She's not in love with you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Frostflower

LL, she needs to get herself straightened out and it needs to happen before you even think of R or you will be reliving this mess again. Encourage the counselling.


----------



## Awakening2012

Hi LL -

I hope you have a highly skilled MC, who is not timid about holding her accountable for her behaviour. Tread carefully, and cautiously -- it sounds like she really needs some IC to sort herself out. Good luck, and keep us posted.

Best Wishes, A12


----------



## lostLove77

Thanks all. 
A12 - I'm among may that would love to buy you a drink. 

I agree she needs to work on her own issue but I'm having THE hardest time detaching my own desires from this. 

Walk, you may be right but I'm a fool
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tron

LongWalk said:


> She is only shamed by her reputation. If you take her back, you improve her reputation because she is a married woman and mother. If she is single and has a history of being dumped or dumping, her LTR capital will be diminish. She's not in love with you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I hope that what is happening here is that this woman is falling off the pedestal that you put her on. She never belonged there in the first place. You deserve better.

She has pretended that she is some kind of good, chaste woman. The reality is that she cheated on you, left you for an OM and if any of what the OM says is true, is just a tramp. She is a liar and a hypocrite.


----------



## lostLove77

I'm not blind that's for sure. I don't think I had her on a pedestal when we were married but it must have been there if it came out so strong when we were separated. But I know I was frustrated and angry a lot. So I'm not sure of the dynamic except I used to get upset but held it in because I thought it was invalid and didn't understand why things were making me upset. Some things were wrong, shouldn't have b!tched about the long drive to her family etc... 

For all this pain it's has been an unbelievable self reflection period. But why is the cost SO high?!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tron

lostLove77 said:


> I'm not blind that's for sure. I don't think I had her on a pedestal when we were married but it must have been there if it came out so strong when we were separated. But I know I was frustrated and angry a lot. So I'm not sure of the dynamic except I used to get upset but held it in because I thought it was invalid and didn't understand why things were making me upset. Some things were wrong, shouldn't have b!tched about the long drive to her family etc...
> 
> For all this pain it's has been an unbelievable self reflection period. But why is the cost SO high?!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Why did you get so frustrated and angry? Resentment? 

I don't think I am stepping out on a limb here, but I am sure WW had a good bit to do with it.

BTW, feelings are neither valid nor invalid. They just are. Get to the root of them and learn something about yourself. Then, you can more easily control what you will or will not get upset about.


----------



## lostLove77

Tron said:


> Why did you get so frustrated and angry? Resentment?
> 
> I don't think I am stepping out on a limb here, but I am sure WW had a good bit to do with it.


I honestly don't know where all the frustration came from. The one thing that seemed to make things fester for me was I felt unappreciated at times. I would do something for the house and she never really thanked me. In fact, i felt like she was pissed because i was mowing the lawn or something like that. And to a point this was true, she didn't care about the lawn or any of that. She wanted me to spend time with her and ask her about things. So, i felt like it was coming from all sides. I have to get this work done and she's going to be pissed about it. Just imagine having to do some work that you don't want to do, has to get done AND you know she's upset about it. 

She said we should get someone to do the things but I never felt comfortable with this, I thought it wasn't necessary.

So, i started to suppress these feelings and just got made about everything else. 

Looking back so much was manageable but we failed each other.


----------



## Conrad

Do you doubt that posOM is telling the truth?

If there's a posOMW, you can find out quickly.


----------



## lostLove77

No, it's someone that could probably never settle down (weed smoking wanna be musician and carpenter) with someone except of course when she said she was through, then he wanted her to be his wife! God lord.

WW told me the extent of the relationship while we were still together, it turned physical after. I'm not really sure how much more I could be told, i'm already pretty ruined by it.


----------



## Conrad

lostLove77 said:


> No, it's someone that could probably never settle down (weed smoking wanna be musician and carpenter) with someone except of course when she said she was through, then he wanted her to be his wife! God lord.
> 
> WW told me the extent of the relationship while we were still together, it turned physical after. I'm not really sure how much more I could be told, i'm already pretty ruined by it.


Then tell her you can't handle it and put up the boundary.


----------



## LongWalk

LL, if you go back over the 6 months of suffering you will find that several astute posters have explained over and over that your wife has been – I think Gut Punch said it - yanking your chain , but Zillard, Conrad, et al have echoed this in varying terms. You have been plan B in case a good plan A didn't work out.

Plan A was tough. Your wife – she is perhaps good looking but not extremely beautiful – has two small girls in tow. As Frank Zappa once said, guy will do anything for püssy. True, Frank, but committing to be a stepdad is a big step in life, especially when the the woman is mercurial and needy. Your wife has dated several men simultaneously or within a short time of each other.

This was hard to keep secret because of as you once put it the "mighty Facebook". An attention seeker like your wife could never control FB properly. Also, the story of your uncompleted divorce must have been off putting. She dumped you because you did not fill the emotional hole and were two bossy.

Where were you they wondered? Taking care of family properties, she said. What did you have three houses at one point? Plus, who would want a woman who was sabotaging the relationship of her own children with their father was still "her friend". 

By the way what was her Master's degree in?

Suddenly her dating game is looking less secure. In biological terms she has satisfied her desire for another man's genes, the itch for some strange got scratched, and now you are possibly being recalled.

When you wife has gotten emotional with you and shared her problems (her growing reputation as an attention Ωhore willing to put out to get stroked but difficult to deal with in a LTR). Who knows, if you play hard to get for a week, she may jump your bone when pick up or drop off the girls.

Are you tempted to give a her good pounding and then after she says she loves you to reply "yes, I love you, too, but I must now sleep with 3 or 4 women over the next year just to make sure how good our love it."

Probably you are not that mean. Anyway it is a bit touching that she is now considering falling in love with you again because she'll want it all to make sense. She'll even be able to tell her family with considerable sincerity that she realized how deep her love for you lay dormant inside patiently waiting inside.


----------



## lostLove77

Damn Walk! Great post.

So, this is precious but her Masters is in counseling. She works at a HS. I have to say a lot of what's been said here was spot on and I was blinded. The past couple of days i've been replaying a lot of what happened during this separation and I can now see the lies. She didn't have the guts to tell the truth. She appreciated my steady and supportive hand and kept it within reach. 

I had a LONG conversation with her mother and it was incredible. She has been very supportive. She's even encouraging me to take care of myself and file, she can't understand what her daughter is going through. The WW even asked her mother not to speak to me. I think she's afraid what we'll tell each other about her actions. She's ashamed. 

I'm really becoming affected by all this and what others say about coming to the point of not even wanting them back is a tickle in my head. It wasn't even remotely there before and was entirely the opposite. How can the script replay itself over and over. WTF!

We never had 3 homes at once but I was taking care of the kids and doing the chores around the house. Sat at home friday nights while she went out. Got the vaca home at the bitter end so a bit of time was spent with that as well.

I can't say the thought if anything ever happened I'd want to reach out for another woman myself hasn't passed my mind, but I KNOW I'm not wired like that. I desire a simple love and family. And it doubt it's even a real scenario that would come up anyway.

I'm not sure she is considering falling in love again or not. I think she's simply afraid to lose my support. I only feel her truly reaching out when she needs something. 

I will be NC until the session on Wednesday, and I have a feeling I should probably set up a meeting with a lawyer for Thursday. This will be hard for me. I start to physically shake from all the thoughts and silence.

I know you all must be very frustrated with me and I appreciate the steady hand you have provided. I thank you, i would not have survived without this forum and I mean that literally.


----------



## Chuck71

LL Pretty much everything we post, you have already had cross your mind

funny it seems to carry more weight when a stranger tells you the same thing you are thinking

We all here want, what ever you think is best for you

from filing for D and going dark to starting R

Where I was 6 months ago, the deepest point

I see numerous on TAM hitting that point now

it's a cold and dark place but you find out who you are

you may have fell down the rabbit hole 100 mph

but you will come out of it 300 mph


----------



## Conrad

lostLove77 said:


> I'm not sure she is considering falling in love again or not. I think she's simply afraid to lose my support. I only feel her truly reaching out when she needs something.


This has the ring of truth, doesn't it?

From 50,000 feet, all I can say is, the hell with the b!tch.


----------



## lostLove77

Conrad said:


> This has the ring of truth, doesn't it?
> 
> From 50,000 feet, all I can say is, the hell with the b!tch.


Yeah, and to be honest I see it in her interactions with her parents. She has barely gone up to see them this whole time we've been separated. Only for holidays like Mother's Day etc...

But when she needs money or something....

You'd think she'd want some support from her family but she's too concerned with going out. I do not know this person, where did she come from?


----------



## Tron

LongWalk said:


> Are you tempted to give a her good pounding and then after she says she loves you to reply "yes, I love you, too, but I must now sleep with 3 or 4 women over the next year just to make sure how good our love is"


I would love to be a fly on the wall for that convo.


----------



## Tron

Conrad said:


> From 50,000 feet, all I can say is, the hell with the b!tch.


Conrad, starting to despise this one like Regroup's WW?

And what is it with these women psychologists? Damn, are they all crazier than a $hithouse rat?

I better shut up now...my W was a psych major...and would love to get her Masters...I think I might have to put my foot down and send her off to pharmacy school instead.


----------



## GutPunch

Try optometry.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tron

GutPunch said:


> Try optometry.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:lol: LOL


----------



## Conrad

users use people
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LongWalk

This thread is making me laugh, shouldn't I know
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LongWalk

LL, she will fall more in love with you as her situation deteriorates. The harder you 180 her, the harder she will try to be a good wife if you go that route. When GP drove his wife to detox II he did not hold her hand and promise to be waiting when she got out. Everyday she called on the phone and said "I love you" he only grunted for three months. You have play poker like GP. BW is not doing it. He is smart but biology is smarter

School counselor? Her reputation there must be a joke that tears at her. She is thinking, change jobs and/or seduce LL and or new dating profile

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

LongWalk said:


> This thread is making me laugh, shouldn't I know
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Actually, we all should - including Lost.

It's the way to heal.


----------



## lostLove77

I'm trying but this still is so raw. This is the first time I've desired detachment. It's sad in a different way.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lostLove77

Short little texts about some cloths for the girls she thought i had. I told her i wasnt sure since im mostly living out of suit cases for me and the girls. Her response was simply "that's totally fine - I need them for her gym class". 

It's all about her needs right now. No empathy and I can feel the pull just from these little texts. This is going to be so hard.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chuck71

Yes this is about her needs

and she needs to face reality

LL.......... batter up!


----------



## Tron

lostLove77 said:


> Short little texts about some cloths for the girls she thought i had. I told her i wasnt sure since im mostly living out of suit cases for me and the girls. Her response was simply "that's totally fine - I need them for her gym class".
> 
> It's all about her needs right now. No empathy and I can feel the pull just from these little texts. This is going to be so hard.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No more explaining. No more doing things for her. Minimal interaction. Yes / No answers.

You can do this LL. LongWalk is right, when the shock wears off and she realizes you are done with her jerking your chain, she is going to be chasing you...hard. 

When you see the attorney, tell him to go ahead and FILE on the basis of adultery. 

Maybe it's just me, but for some reason the idea of her getting served at school makes me smile.


----------



## lostLove77

Thanks everyone, keep telling myself over and over - "Don't Call, it's feeding the machine!"

Trying to take Zillards mantra from his posts a long time ago:
I Don't Know What's Going to Happen


----------



## ExisaWAW

LL, I've read through most of your posts & it's amazing how similar our sitches are. On the surface, they're different because my xW & I are divorced already. But, I bet if she hadn't rushed into D & we were going through a separation like you, our sitches would have been even more similar.

What I see in your W is a spoiled person who took you for granted. She walked because she thought the grass was greener (and for any number of psychological dysfunctions, including selfishness). She has a character flaw. She may continue to want to walk if you ever get back with her.

She devalued you over time (Yes, you made mistakes too. It's a marriage, it's not perfect).
Your were/ are her Plan B.
She is nearly incapable of showing remorse or compassion/empathy towards you for what she has put you or your children through.

...and yet you still love her.

Codependency for sure. I am guilty as well.

The other thing I see is that your W "needs" to have you around emotionally for her. You have been there for her for all these years. She is comfortable around you. That bond is life-long. She should have thought about that before she walked out. Continuing to provide her with emotional support allows her to continue to get the things she loved about the marriage without the commitment & doing the things that she should be doing to reciprocate her love towards you. 

Look, in one way, you like the fact she "needs" you. But then you feel like you are being used (you are) so you feel badly for allowing yourself to be taken advantage of. And, you don't want a friend, you want a wife.

It's torture for sure.

The advice you have been getting is spot on. If only we could take it, right? It's not like you didn't do most of it (the 180, etc.). But here you are, still clinging to the miracle R where she finally fesses up that she was wrong, takes you back, and starts to really value you & treat you the way you deserve to be treated.

From the threads I have read, R sometimes happens, but it typically takes a major blow to the WS to snap them into trying again. Financial worries, a bad break-up with a new lover, their seeing you move on with another person & getting jealous, etc. 

I have read that for guys like you & me (who would have given anything for another try), at some point we finally REALLY move on and emerge completely from the fog & then sometimes our exes will take another look at us (even some hardcore WAWs).

I think there's something to this. In my sitch, I went from rich to unemployed (unattractive, I'm sure). But when I finally distance myself, get a good job, a serious girlfriend, and really become a happy person, there will be an attraction from my xW that will be irresistible to her.

But, if I'm truly past her & recognize her emotional dysfunctions & shortcomings (because I have removed her from the pedestal) I may no longer view her as I once did and I won't want to reconcile with her anymore. That's why true detachment/ acceptance/ 180 is so important.

It's really for us. I wish you the best. I am still on my journey but now I understand what I must do & that's where my focus is.

I have to find work in my field. I have to let my xW go & let God do the work in her so she can experience the consequences of her decisions/ actions. I will be the best Dad I can.

There's only so much we can endure. God wants us to be happy but we must do our part as well. Good luck with detachment. There's an old saying that goes like this, "If you love someone, let them go. If they come back to you, they're yours forever. If they don't, then it was never meant to be."

Walking away with your head held high knowing you've done everything in your power is all you can do.

I also understand fighting for love. But once you make it clear to the person that you love them, but you have done all you can & you have to say goodbye, it's liberating.


----------



## catcalls

what are you so afraid of? what is keeping you from moving on and not be at the mercy of someone who has no regard for you, much less respect? 

one of the ideas of the 180 I imagine would be to have some distance so that you can do some introspection and think about what you are fighting for and whether it is worth it? 

like it or not, your wife is tarnished. despite you saying that you didnt, i suspect you have put her on a pedestal and you think that she is worth waiting for.

you have for all practical purposes been divorced for this period, your wife has moved on and dated other men, your children have coped with being moved around from one parent to the other. do they ask you any questions or do they think you are divorced?

get some professional help to sort yourselves out and regain your self respect. if you dont respect yourself, neither will your wife.

she is a horrible person to treat you like this.


----------



## Chuck71

LL I was the one who threw the D card. My X wanted us to live together but do our own thing.

It still took me nearly a month to file. I will never forget walking up to the courthouse to

get the DIY papers. Danm I felt so empty inside. But it started the ball rolling

when we filed, she was getting the better of me by a land slide

30 days into wait period, I was reformed and had everything in place needed

by the time it was to be final, she was emailing me trying to get the old Chuck back

I heard what I needed to hear, definitely not what I wanted to

but all the bricks in the wall were where they needed to be

today, marks the 6 month point from where I was at my deepest point

now, everything is 180....... worst to first......it was baby steps

LL you'll get there


----------



## lostLove77

Cat I'm starting to get it and agree with your input. What's held me up is my need for her. I've loved this woman for 14 years and that's a hard bond to break and it blinded me.

So, I'm still planning on going to the counseling session but I wonder how I should start. Just sit and listen to what she says or start out with my feelings of frustration and disrespect?


----------



## Conrad

lostLove77 said:


> Cat I'm starting to get it and agree with your input. What's held me up is my need for her. I've loved this woman for 14 years and that's a hard bond to break and it blinded me.
> 
> So, I'm still planning on going to the counseling session but I wonder how I should start. Just sit and listen to what she says or start out with my feelings of frustration and disrespect?


If you go in there and start talking about your feelings, it will be a setback.

OBSERVE

How is she looking physically? Is she uncomfortable? Stammering? Pushy... emotional?

You are in counterpunch mode.

Whatever game she tries to run, you're not ok with it.

Then observe her responses to that.

When it comes time to deliver the words, you simply say you were completely not ok with posOM and the dating - and you're not sure whether you ever will be.

And, then go back to observation/silent mode.

Make her answer.


----------



## catcalls

lostLove77 said:


> Cat I'm starting to get it and agree with your input. What's held me up is my need for her. I've loved this woman for 14 years and that's a hard bond to break and it blinded me.
> 
> So, I'm still planning on going to the counseling session but I wonder how I should start. Just sit and listen to what she says or start out with my feelings of frustration and disrespect?


I know it is difficult as you have spent the best part of two decades aligning your happiness to the mental state of this woman. truly, she seems like someone who needs constant positive attention and reinforcement. i wonder if that was your underlying bond in the marriage. you love her and she loves that. but over time that was not enough and she decides to go out of the marriage to find real 'love' and 'discover herself'.

My main surprise is your lack of real anger and fury. i know western society has emasculated men and told them they need to be sensitive to women's feelings. not to mention the law. but even then you should be rejecting her for her waywardness and let her do the chasing and show remorse for reconciliation, if you are so inclined to do so in the future.

if she comes back without any remorse or real efforts to make it up to you, how do you think that will play out. will you really not resent a wife who has openly cheated on you with possibly more than one person. will she ever respect you for not holding her accountable and allowing her to saunter back into the marriage. she will use it to control you and keep claiming how unhappy she is for some vague reason or the other and you will still be in limbo, constantly worried when she will leave again.

hence you should make her work really hard to show what she can offer you as a wife, independent of being your children's mother. what does she bring to the table that make her a good spouse. 

personally, i think you have given her too much power over your emotions. you seem so worried about her feelings and how she would react if you do something. therein lies your problem

your goal should be to seek happiness independent of others. i.e. within yourself and do things that make you happy. these could be something as simple as going away to a favourite place for a few hours. for me going to my favourite museum always cheers me up. even if you cannot think of anything immediately, keep a diary, note down the small things that make you happy and do them. a more positive mood will make you believe that you deserve happiness and you are not dependent on your leeching wife for your happiness. It may sound a bit hippy-dippy but learning to be happy and make yourself happy independent of other's actions will enable you to make the right decisions and not tolerate others who pull you down.

start doing things more for you. that will build your self esteem. of course you should try and seek a good IC to help you. but you need a fundamental shift in your thinking. everything you do from now on should be judged by the parameter, will this make lost happy? 

also, move back into town from your vacation house. both of you can take the financial hit jointly, or she can live there for a few months. afterall that is fair since you have spent months there. it is her turn and she wanted this separation. why not try asking her to do her fair share and see how she reacts. if she gets angry and tries to guilt and shame you , you know that she is still an entitled b***h and thinks she is conferring her favours on you. you need to do something and demand more for yourself. the longer you let your fear guide you and let her trample over you, the less there will be left of you in the aftermath of this saga. also what example will you two be providing to your children?

you have a responsibility to yourself and your children to be happy and content. to be that you need to overcome your fear induced paralysis and take steps that put your well being in the centre. she has to prove to you that she can be a capable life partner. all her actions up till now have not shown that. and unless you tell her that, she is not going to wake up either. if you really love her, then tell her the unvarnished truth about how she is a lousy and immoral wife and she better start convincing you that she is worth the effort. otherwise, you will all keep this charade of a marriage going on for a further few months or till your wife meets her next 'ego boost'.


----------



## LongWalk

Agree with Catcalls. Your wife is Very messed up. You have cut off all validation to change her behavior. MC seems pointless if she is still sleeping with other men. She trickle truthed you in part get you to accept her infidelity. She reinforces you as the B plan. You should push for divorce To snap her out of this. Her own mother thinks she's whöring herself. But for what?

When you talk or meet you should be skeptically indifferent.

You have get rid if that house asap for the sake of your children.

Are you beginning to wonder if your wife is a loser?

People on TAM throw out the term serial cheater, but it seems like your wife multitasks it.

How will you ever enjoy sex with her again without thinking that four other penises have been in her?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chuck71

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/24796-just-let-them-go.html


----------



## Tron

You have MC tomorrow, right? 

What is the program LL?


----------



## lostLove77

Tonight. Dinner with the girls before hand. I am so nervous about this. I printed "Just Let Them Go" and am ready to recite the good bye letter if her answer to "Can't decide between dating..." is the answer I think it is.

I can't calm myself, my stomach is wrecked and she's cool as a cucumber. She texted a few time this morning ("Have a Nice Day, It's pretty out", "finding a part time job is so hard...") and I was cool and detached but had to erase so many messages that i had written before sending. I know I've been too depressed, and depressed around her,that can't be attractive. Funny thing is she said she likes vulnerability and emotion but little has that done.

I will go and see what she has to say but this may be the hardest night of my life. However, "I do not know what is going to happen"!


----------



## Conrad

Lost,

C'mon man. Sack up.

She says, "she can't decide"

You respond, "I'm not ok with that"

And, you go SILENT


----------



## Conrad

lostLove77 said:


> Funny thing is she said she likes vulnerability and emotion but little has that done.


Don't listen to what they say, watch what they do.


----------



## catcalls

Conrad said:


> Lost,
> 
> C'mon man. Sack up.
> 
> She says, "she can't decide"
> 
> You respond, "I'm not ok with that"
> 
> And, you go SILENT


exactly, you get to decide. she is not deciding any more. if you find it difficult to say anything or be forthright and assertive, just dont say anything. if she asks tell her you need time to digest what she has said and will let her know what you are thinking after some thought

you need to pretend you are in control till you are able to do it. yes you are vulnerable to her but you should hide it and be impassive if you can. if you cannot trust your feelings or emotions, just keep them locked up till you can process them and respond in a measure way

good luck


----------



## Tron

Conrad said:


> Lost,
> 
> C'mon man. Sack up.
> 
> She says, "she can't decide"
> 
> You respond, "I'm not ok with that"
> 
> And, you go SILENT


Just in case you didn't catch it the first 2 times. 

And if your gut and heart are telling you that something doesn't feel good then it's pretty clear you aren't ok with it.


----------



## LongWalk

catcalls said:


> exactly, you get to decide. she is not deciding any more. if you find it difficult to say anything or be forthright and assertive, just dont say anything. if she asks tell her you need time to digest what she has said and will let her know what you are thinking after some thought
> 
> you need to pretend you are in control till you are able to do it. yes you are vulnerable to her but you should hide it and be impassive if you can. if you cannot trust your feelings or emotions, just keep them locked up till you can process them and respond in a measure way
> 
> good luck


:iagree: Conrad is right, too, of course.

LL, you have suffered horrible loneliness. She has relished this as the guarantor of your place on the bench. She has slept with other men in a search for your replacement and failed to come up with a better guy than you. None of them want to fill your shoes.

Her calmness is only possible because she lacks empathy for you. Is she empathetic in general? Perhaps she became a counselor to find out why she never felt quite right? Her assurance is also a statement about her security with regards to you. She feels that she can control you. Your happiness is dependent on her affection, which she gives and takes depending on her moods.

If this MC is about getting back together, she should be begging on her knees. If she is too proud to supplicate herself, you can be sure that you are reentering an unequal relationship. She will do as she pleases if it is too easy to get you back.

It is better to say nothing, than engage in relationship talk that reinforces her sense of security.

Master yourself if you can, be very noncommital. But when the counselor presses you to participate, asking if there is anything that you wonder, why not ask the MC in a neutral voice: "I wonder when my wife realized we would never kiss again or ever share the same bed? And I wonder how she felt about it?"

You probably cannot stay calm and say it to you wife but if you can get it out to the MC without sounding needy, it might be a shock for your wife.

You should not worry about losing her now, for if she doesn't gain some insight fast, she is not worth fighting for. Read GutPunches thread. His wife is beautiful, she is 100% sorry about her cheating, but GutPunch is tired. Even having sex triggers bad feelings for him.

You may be able to rebond with your wife but it is far from certain.


----------



## lostLove77

I am having a VERY hard time even attempting to control my emotions.

This may seem obvious but when you say it's my decision i don't quite understand. My decision to file or not? That's why i have the "Just Let Them Go" good bye note printed. She has said she has no problem with filing if i'm not happy with proceeding at her pace. 

So as you can see she's setting parameters and to be truthful I think she does need help and going slow would probably be healthy for us both. I just want us to be going in the same direction with no other people involved.

I know i'm being naive, I just have to get through tonight.


----------



## lostLove77

"I'm not ok with that / silence".

I will make this my tool during this session. I'm sure it will come in handy. Thank you all.

Also, as to me not having anger and rage, it comes but it has not worked well for me in the past. I drive people away with it and it leaves me nowhere.


----------



## Conrad

"I wonder when my wife realized we would never kiss again or ever share the same bed?"

This is perfect.

Good job Walk


----------



## LongWalk

Thanks Conrad. You are one of the teachers here.

LL, your wife is talking bravely about divorce. But what does it offer her? She demanded freedom from monogamy and took it without divorce. If divorce comes, everyone who cares will say she is cheater who got dumped.

"Started running around with more than one guy," they'll laugh.

If you file and 180, she'll start purring like a cat and rubbing up against your ankles.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

lostLove77 said:


> "I'm not ok with that / silence".
> 
> I will make this my tool during this session. I'm sure it will come in handy. Thank you all.
> 
> Also, as to me not having anger and rage, it comes but it has not worked well for me in the past. I drive people away with it and it leaves me nowhere.


Actually, the way she's treated you, your kids, and your relationship, you have every right to be angry enough to tear her heart out of her chest.

Channel it. Productively. Channel it.

Take the inward rage and USE it to project a deadly cool exterior.

Use the emotional energy of the anger to ask Longwalk's question without emotion.

Use the emotional energy of the anger to listen to all her b.s. and to deliver your "I'm not ok with that" "What makes anyone think I'd be ok with that?" "I don't like where this conversation is heading" with measured dispassionate calm.

Restraint is interpreted as strength

You see, the level of pain and hurt you've been dealt has turned you into the Mount Everest of betrayed spouses.

What can she possibly do to you that she has not ALREADY DONE?

She cannot hurt you any further.

What you can do is tell her flatly what you are...and are not ok with.

And, let her respond.

If she starts blameshifting or coming with any of that complete bullshix about "no connection" or Lost is so shutdown, etc.... he never did this.... blah, blah, blah

Use your inner rage to deliver a dispassionate:

"I'm sorry you feel that way"

This will drive her over the edge.

She'll be looking down off the Grand Canyon with no net below her.

Observe my man.

Almost home.


----------



## lostLove77

Are you saying that anger from her is good? If she rages and I don't repo d why would that make things better between us? I personally think that would be a moment for her to say "you see". However I've taken enough already so don't mind doing it. Just curious.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

lostLove77 said:


> Are you saying that anger from her is good? If she rages and I don't repo d why would that make things better between us? I personally think that would be a moment for her to say "you see". However I've taken enough already so don't mind doing it. Just curious.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Anger from her and abuse is unacceptable.

Let her know it.

"I don't like where this conversation is headed"

If the MC doesn't step in to stop it, you simply say, "This is unacceptable treatment, if it doesn't stop, I'll be leaving the session"


----------



## LongWalk

Conrad said:


> Actually, the way she's treated you, your kids, and your relationship, you have every right to be angry enough to tear her heart out of her chest.
> 
> Channel it. Productively. Channel it.
> 
> Take the inward rage and USE it to project a deadly cool exterior.
> 
> Use the emotional energy of the anger to ask Longwalk's question without emotion.
> 
> Use the emotional energy of the anger to listen to all her b.s. and to deliver your "I'm not ok with that" "What makes anyone think I'd be ok with that?" "I don't like where this conversation is heading" with measured dispassionate calm.
> 
> Restraint is interpreted as strength
> 
> You see, the level of pain and hurt you've been dealt has turned you into the Mount Everest of betrayed spouses.
> 
> What can she possibly do to you that she has not ALREADY DONE?
> 
> She cannot hurt you any further.
> 
> What you can do is tell her flatly what you are...and are not ok with.
> 
> And, let her respond.
> 
> If she starts blameshifting or coming with any of that complete bullshix about "no connection" or Lost is so shutdown, etc.... he never did this.... blah, blah, blah
> 
> Use your inner rage to deliver a dispassionate:
> 
> "I'm sorry you feel that way"
> 
> This will drive her over the edge.
> 
> She'll be looking down off the Grand Canyon with no net below her.
> 
> Observe my man.
> 
> Almost home.


:iagree:

The key here is to not jump into her arms or bed for some time to come. She must earn the right the put her arms around you. If and when you at last kiss her again, she should shake with relief unable to even make a sound. The tears should flow. Anything less and R will go pus sour with all the affair flora.

If you smile and wag your tail like puppy she will f' it all up completely. It will be a mess without any moral order. Follow Conrad's advice. Visualize yourself as Clint Eastwood or Charles Bronson. Imagine the cold rage.


----------



## Conrad

LongWalk said:


> :iagree:
> 
> The key here is to not jump into her arms or bed for some time to come. She must earn the right the put her arms around you. If and when you at last kiss her again, she should shake with relief unable to even make a sound. The tears should flow. Anything less and R will go pus sour with all the affair flora.
> 
> If you smile and wag your tail like puppy she will f' it all up completely. It will be a mess without any moral order. Follow Conrad's advice. Visualize yourself as Clint Eastwood or Charles Bronson. Imagine the cold rage.


Channel it.


----------



## lostLove77

Hour and a half and counting. I'm putting too much pressure on this. "I don't know what's going to happen "
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

lostLove77 said:


> Hour and a half and counting. I'm putting too much pressure on this. "I don't know what's going to happen "
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The only things that are going to happen are those you will allow to happen.


----------



## LongWalk

Great movie moments - Unforgiven 1992 - YouTube


----------



## LongWalk

Before you go in force yourself to laugh at all the absurdity. Remember your children and the strength that they give you. Concentrate on breathing. Speak slowly. Look them in the eye.

You can do it. You don't have to be perfect.


----------



## lostLove77

Thank you everyone. Walk, that helps a lot.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

lostLove77 said:


> Thank you everyone. Walk, that helps a lot.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Brother,

You simply cannot go quiet like this on such a big day.

Give us the skinny.


----------



## LongWalk

Conrad said:


> Brother,
> 
> You simply cannot go quiet like this on such a big day.
> 
> Give us the skinny.


:iagree:

One can easily imagine his WW breaking down and him comforting her, although the problems are being carpet swept. The route to safety will be longer then, but sometimes one must go the scenic route, having turned off at the wrong place.


----------



## Tron

Guys,

Been waiting too...

LL doesn't normally go silent like this. Things must not have gone well at MC. Either 

1. Your gonna need to order some lumber ala LongWalk

or

2. Filing for D has now become real. 

I am guessing #2 but only cause I think so highly of his WW.


----------



## LongWalk

Easy to imagine the following: MC, who gives a little professional courtesy to WW because she is in the same business, says LL are you okay with the way things are going and he when he replied 'No', WW responded she was making progress towards self actualization.

When MC asked LL "are you ok with this", LL may have objected to WW's method. Her horizontal exploration of life's options is an unpleaant for LL.

MC might have followed up with a question about the fairness of WW's slow progress. She would have admitted that it might be hard on him to hear telephone calls about the dope smoking carpenter being angry about her cheating with B and C and D.

At which point, WW would have to admit that D was the only fair way to go. Big of her. On the surface, it could have devestating To LL. In reality, it is progress.

She will still be hassling LL for emotional support for some time to come, regardless of what she does.


----------



## Chuck71

****She has said she has no problem with filing if i'm not happy with proceeding at her pace.*********

This is exactly what I would do. Tell her you love her with all your heart. Tell her this on the phone, while you are at your lawyer's office........getting ready to file. But again, I prefer hitting them between the eyes when they think.....they have everything in their control


----------



## Chuck71

LL you say she is cool as a cucumber, know why?

Every single thing is in her favor. No wonder

Start taking back your space, delegate boundaries

and I guarantee, her fantasy castle will begin to shake 

watch what she does, this is when you hit 50k feet

and watch what she does not what she says

the further along you are in the 180 / NC the more

you will see her castle crumble

Once the castle is gone.....then you reassess


----------



## lostLove77

sorry guys, was a long evening. I'm sure plenty of lumber would have abounded.

I actually like the counselor he picked up on things instantly, however he's very much in the camp to repair at all costs.

Anyway, I'm still processing. However my quick summary of the session is that she needs her time, has no strings to anyone and truly cares about us.

The Dr's take is that he felt genuine warmth and connection between us and said that 6 months in the grand scheme of all this is not a long time. His advice was to take some time, do what I felt I had to do for myself but let this sit a little bit because she's starting to open up....

Honestly, writing this it sounds like BS yet there was something in the room as well a lot of my triggers seemed to be losing their edge ever so slightly. When hanging out with the kids last night I wasn't bothered by her phone constantly buzzing from texts, I could feel myself starting to gain self respect. I deserve the love I want, and if she doesn't want to join me it's her loss.

So, Chuck I'm not running to the lawyers office yet but there is a change in the winds to this dependency and I hope it starts to blow MUCH harder.


----------



## Tron

LongWalk said:


> At which point, WW would have to admit that D was the only fair way to go. Big of her. On the surface, it could have devastating To LL. In reality, it is progress.


:iagree: 




LongWalk said:


> She will still be hassling LL for emotional support for some time to come, regardless of what she does.


I think that goes without saying. He is her bestest girlfriend don't you know. [Insert smiley for vomit] 

And, she'll probably come around a week before the divorce is final and give him the "I love you, your my best friend, think I would like to try again".


----------



## Conrad

Lost,

Are you ok with her phone buzzing with texts?


----------



## lostLove77

C - Honestly it used to really piss me off, who is it, what's going on.....

Now, well whatever, it's no under my control and hell it could be her mom.

I have to give her her due on this. She used to have her head buried in that thing. She now tosses it aside while we're together in any fashion.

I'm still jumbled a bit and honestly a bit relieved at having been through the session. A lot of the answers I got were the ones I expected but there were a few moments I didn't.

I just want to soak in the peace for this small amount of time.


----------



## Conrad

Sounds like she just bought herself 6 more months to jerk you around.


----------



## lostLove77

good lord no. 

It was an interesting day tho. A funny thing she said was,
"Once you move back up here the real work will begin".

Odd, i really should have asked her clarification but I interjected my own feelings again! Damn it. My take on it is that she wants to spend time together and it's impossible to do with our living situations and she's not willing to jump right back in to living together.

Whatever, I'm not going to be the good faithful schmuck i've been just sitting around. I hope I run into some cute professionals.


----------



## Tron

lostLove77 said:


> Honestly, writing this it sounds like BS...


Yep. Being able to see that is progress too. 




lostLove77 said:


> When hanging out with the kids last night I wasn't bothered by her phone constantly buzzing from texts, I could feel myself starting to gain self respect.


I am not sure I could have done that. I would have picked up the phone and if there were any texts that were from OM#1, #2, #3, #4, #5.... I would have probably taken it out and thrown it on the grill or smashed it on the sidewalk. But then, I am just a little more in tune and in control of my feelings than you.  




lostLove77 said:


> Whatever, I'm not going to be the good faithful schmuck i've been just sitting around. I hope I run into some cute professionals.


You need make that happen...


----------



## Tron

You understand that from 50,000' this:



lostLove77 said:


> My take on it is that she wants to spend time together and it's impossible to do with our living situations and she's not willing to jump right back in to living together.


looks a lot like this:



Conrad said:


> Sounds like she just bought herself 6 more months to jerk you around.


----------



## LongWalk

LL,

Does the MC know how many men she has slept with? Did she say that she is through with affairs? If she needs more time to search for your replacement, does she need your permission? Is it enough to have the MC’s nod?

She needs time. But what about you? How long are you supposed to be suspended in wait for her?

Are you supposed to give her moral support when her lovers turn against her? Does she mention them by name in your sessions?

A great deal of this waiting really has to do with her willingness to honestly play with the cards she has dealt out. By walking away from your marriage but not seeking divorce, she cake eating. By feeding you bits of information and giving a kiss once every few months she is seeking your sanction for her horizontal self-actualization. Can you play this game for even a few more months? Doesn’t it amount to self destruction.

When you once wrote something like she knows that men are after sex and that is a danger makes her careful, that made my stomach sink. She was asking for permission to PA when the EA guys looked solid. Even if she doesn’t put it like that you, her behavior implies this.

One thing that neither of you are facing right now is that you will not be reconciling to resume the same marriage. You are going to reconcile with a woman who has been promiscuous, for emotional approval or sex. That is going to be difficult for you to overcome. You cannot rug sweep it, for once you are living the family life again, say, for example, eating pancakes with your kids on a Sunday morning, you’re going to look at her and think “Gawd, she fvcked all those other guys and teld them that maybe they were going to be the one forever and ever, and none of them lasted a year. 

Your best move is file for D asap. Go 180 and see if begs. If she doesn’t confess and come clean, do you even want to try?

Has she been on BC? Did she have unprotected sex?


----------



## Conrad

Walk,

They always have unprotected sex.

I mean, this posOM was her soul mate.

Sickening.


----------



## LongWalk

Condoms ruin it. Horrible for the kids To witness the parade of guys, sneaking out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

LongWalk said:


> Condoms ruin it. Horrible for the kids To witness the parade of guys, sneaking out.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I have so many friends who had a number done on their emotions by "all of mom's friends"


----------



## LongWalk

Fire MC?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

LongWalk said:


> Fire MC?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think it's time.

Lost... go to 50,000 feet.

Did the MC challenge either of you - about anything?


----------



## LongWalk

LL, we are pressing you because you are at a critical point. Don't take it negatively.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lostLove77

I appreciate the support and don't see it as negative. 

She said the physical relationship with just with the one guy and all the other stuff was mostly dinner (i'm not putting a whole lot of stock into that but she has been pretty open to the counselor). The relationships are over, but she doesn't want anyone putting some kind of restrictions on her. To a degree i understand this, if she comes back it's under her own free will. I cannot force this. Strangely enough she has spoke to what she would have to do if she made the commitment again. Taking texting off of her phone and some other things but she's not there yet. So, she understands changes in behavior that have to happen and has even thought about it. 

I understand the point about these relationships being an anchor on any possible relationship between us, ohhhhh i get it.

So confused, I don't know why but I trust this counselor and want to speak with him again. I really do, i liked the session a lot. Afterwards she said she felt attacked initially when i spoke about the relationships, the pain and disrespect it caused me to feel. But, she was glad i was able to express my anger and it turned into a constructive discussion.

So, I am my own man and I'm not limiting my heart to anything right now. If someone new started at the company and wanted to go out tonight, i'm going. I may not be fully ready for ANY relationship right now but I want to be open to new experiences.


----------



## Conrad

lostLove77 said:


> I appreciate the support and don't see it as negative.
> 
> She said the physical relationship with just with the one guy and all the other stuff was mostly dinner (i'm not putting a whole lot of stock into that but she has been pretty open to the counselor). The relationships are over, but she doesn't want anyone putting some kind of restrictions on her. To a degree i understand this, if she comes back it's under her own free will. I cannot force this. Strangely enough she has spoke to what she would have to do if she made the commitment again. Taking texting off of her phone and some other things but she's not there yet. So, she understands changes in behavior that have to happen and has even thought about it.
> 
> I understand the point about these relationships being an anchor on any possible relationship between us, ohhhhh i get it.
> 
> So confused, I don't know why but I trust this counselor and want to speak with him again. I really do, i liked the session a lot. Afterwards she said she felt attacked initially when i spoke about the relationships, the pain and disrespect it caused me to feel. But, she was glad i was able to express my anger and it turned into a constructive discussion.
> 
> So, I am my own man and I'm not limiting my heart to anything right now. If someone new started at the company and wanted to go out tonight, i'm going. I may not be fully ready for ANY relationship right now but I want to be open to new experiences.


Lost,

This doesn't sound like remorse.

Not even remotely close to remorse.


----------



## GutPunch

I agree with Conrad.

I think I would be full force 180. 

Give defiant people what they want!

My two cents.


----------



## LongWalk

Conrad said:


> Lost,
> 
> This doesn't sound like remorse.
> 
> Not even remotely close to remorse.


Her situation is very difficult. If the OM1 was complaining about other men and smearing her, then situation is grave, so grave that she invited LL to an emergency lunch. She even had to call on the phone to weep about it. If there weren't a good deal of substance to OM's outrage, would she gotten her knickers in twist?

At this point in life, over 30, men are not doing to take a woman out to dinner and go to the movies to hold hands many times. On the second or third date, they are going to press for nookie. That is reality.

LL, frankly your wife wants to you force her to close her legs because she cannot. Even her own mother is disgusted.

The MC sees people get divorced all the time. He is always good with it. The sooner you divorce, the sooner you are not a paying client.

The texting is sad. Your wife has many texts from OM. The flattering ones she is treasuring and doesn't want to erase yet. The post coital messages cause her pain but she doesn't want to erase them either because she is searching for meaning. But as Mach would put it the meaning limbic. We are not suppose to get it.


----------



## Tron

lostLove77 said:


> I actually like the counselor he picked up on things instantly, however he's very much in the camp to repair at all costs.


LL, I realize you are still processing, but this: 

"he's very much in the camp to repair at all costs" 

is a bit of a concern to me. 

This was what? Your 3rd session with this MC. It is good that he was able to pick up on things, but where is this going? Has he talked to you two about moving back in together? Has he talked to her about boundaries? Has he talked to her about anything related to how this impacts you? 

I have been through R. Our MC was very good and the W was able to connect with him. He was NOT a "repair at all cost" MC and told us much. We truly had a lot to work with. Things had not gotten remotely close to where you are, and he still told her to be wary throughout the process and observe. The "repair at all cost" attitude came from ME, which is precisely where it was supposed to come from... 

With that in mind, these are things you are going to need from your WW over the coming months: regret, remorse, transparency, understanding, patience, words and actions demonstrating that this crap of hers is not going to continue or ever happen again. Has THIS been discussed by the MC? The phone and texts are just the tip of the iceberg. 

As Conrad indicated...first thing is true remorse. It is the bedrock on which the R is built. Without it, the rest of what you work on will crumble.

If he is still working on "communication" then you are just passing the time. Your WW has been communicating with you just fine for 6 months.


----------



## Conrad

For a woman with childhood damage and intense pride, it can also take the form of "I want you... I realize I don't want anyone else"

I don't hear anything like that either.

What I hear is, "Wait for me to make MY decision"

That's a steaming pile of horsecrap.


----------



## lostLove77

Tron said:


> "he's very much in the camp to repair at all costs"
> 
> is a bit of a concern to me.
> 
> This was what? Your 3rd session with this MC. It is good that he was able to pick up on things, but where is this going? Has he talked to you two about moving back in together? Has he talked to her about boundaries? Has he talked to her about anything related to how this impacts you?


Sorry guys, i don't know why i said that. Just so full of different things right now. He actually wasn't like that at all. He simply wanted it to work but he did tell me to focus on myself and not her in any way. Communicate with her when it was needed and we were both receptive. 

So, he is telling me to do things for myself... I'm just a bit numb right now from all the emotional turmoil and taking a breath.


----------



## LongWalk

> As Conrad indicated...first thing is true remorse. It is the bedrock on which the R is built. Without it, the rest of what you work on will crumble.
> 
> If he is still working on "communication" then you are just passing the time. Your WW has been communicating with you just fine for 6 months.


:iagree:

Your wife is absolutely miserable inside... if she is not, then there is absolutely nothing in your marriage to salvage.


----------



## lostLove77

Walk, what leads you to think she's miserable? I do think she's very angry about how life has wronged her and her part in making those decisions.

Both of us are great at finding the victims chair. Hell, it takes me a long time to realize I did it, if i ever realize it.


----------



## LongWalk

I remember that you owned up at the beginning of your thread that you had felt that your home moves had stressed her out. Fair enough she wanted to leave you and in her mind she wanted to meet somebody new. After that though when she knew about your suffering and kept you hanging on while she kept searching... shouldn't she have asked to divorce? LL, if were just you and she had To be cruel to even a score, okay love is cruel. But what about your kids? How painful this must for them. They are so young they will just feel you deserted them
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LongWalk

lostLove77 said:


> Small but interesting event last night. *Just as I turned off the light last night the phone rings. She was calling just to say hi. First time that has EVER happened.
> 
> Well, guess you could bust out the lumber but we spoke for a while. She started off really happy to speak but started to get upset by all the same old stuff. I know I should have just ended it right there but this woman has such a hold on me. Anyway we hung up and she just seemed angry.
> 
> To make matters better or worse this uneasyness bothered me and I called her this morning. Was actually and interesting conversation this time. She mentioned she wasn't angry with me now but with me from the past couple years, she sees a lot of progress etc... Turns out the guys she had been hanging out with and texting got pissed off that she would not advance with them and always insisted she wanted to be friends. She said they acted like teenage girls throwing a fit and she didn't know how to handle it since she's always had been with me (calm and reserved). *
> 
> We spoke about how angry she was about all the stuff in the past and its not making her any happier to be rehashing it. Said it may be good for her to go to counseling herself. Who knows what will happen but it was interesting to see some cracks. Chuck may have been on to something.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


just before went further with one or more. She was just checking to see if it was ok with you. wtf


----------



## LongWalk

lostLove77 said:


> Guess it's time for an update. I know this story isn't very interesting, especially with Bull Winkle's story out there!
> 
> I have a hard time processing my situation into words. No crazy fights, infidelity just confusion. My WS has been reaching out through calls and texts to talk about stuff with the kids but when that is worked out we speak like friends.
> 
> She even brings up a few happy moments from the past. It seems to be getting more positive, not many moments where she gets stuck on things that make her upset. I started to run and workout more and she is really interested in this. She really got into running a few years ago and now she says she wants to go running with me. I know this is putting my head in a strange spot. I still feel connected to her but I'm not sure if that's good or bad. We get along really well, but she feels she is still "recuperating".
> 
> We're speaking much more openly about things than ever but there is still no commitment or even a hint that she may want to work on the relationship. That seems to say that i really need to cut everything off but there does seem to be some positive signs. I just don't know.
> 
> Funny side note, the town-home next to her has come up for sale and she wants me to buy it and she's serious. Just strange.


----------



## LongWalk

lostLove77 said:


> I honestly can't make sense of anything at this point. I didn't mention it before but the end of last week I get a facebook friend invite from her. I have ignored it so far.
> 
> So Sunday night, I drop off the girls coolly and confident. No mopping or bitterness. Play with the girls a little bit, and my youngest asks "Is Brian coming over?". WOW! Then she says "He found my egg for me!" I quickly kiss the girls and leave. Text her on my way out that I am not ok with introducing the girls to significant others without my knowledge.
> 
> She calls and says he is just a friend and they only saw him at a community Easter hunt. Says it would be no different than if i took the girls over to my best friend for Easter. "I'm not ok with that, this person has a history of an emotional affair with you while we were together and he freaked out when you didn't want to take the relationship further". She said she could understand but she doesn't want anything and assured me he didn't want anything anymore.
> 
> I cannot believe the ignorance of her sometimes, of course he said he just wants to be friends, she threatened to cut him off completely if he didn't!
> 
> So, then Monday morning i wake up to texts asking me if we could split a trip to Disney with the girls! WTF! I then get a call about it.
> --Weak moment alert --
> I told her that i didn't think i could spend a week in a small hotel with her without getting attached and wouldn't be able to keep my hands off of her. Her response was something like "we always had great vacations and physical relationship, whatever happens, happens. I just don't want a relationship, relationships have never worked out for me". So 14 years just didn't work out? Good lord!
> 
> Later in the day she invites me to come up later in the month for a Girl Scout event with or daughter then dinner and stay the night (no mention of sleeping arrangements, HEH!).
> 
> So, lets be facebook friends, live next to each other and take a cool vacation with possible benefits!
> 
> Head spinning, will take a while to work this one out.


----------



## LongWalk

lostLove77 said:


> Messing everything up. I had to go over to my exs house to watch my daughter while she's home sick. I saw some things by the computer that really upset me. She had a shopping receipt for $600 from the other week, this was just after she asked for a loan from me. So, I feel ashamed but I opened her Facebook account. She was speaking to her friends about all the different guys she has been dating. I snapped.
> 
> I called her and confronted her a out the money and guys. She said she returned most of the stuff - whatever. For the guys, she said no sex and no steady relationship, besides we're separated. I felt like a fool. We had our close moments through this whole thing.
> 
> But now she said she's freaking out about trusting me etc... I feel bad about every single part of this. Mine and hers. Rough day.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LongWalk

lostLove77 said:


> Thanks guys, good input. She knows for a fact guys use attention for sex, so that's why she doesn't want any relationship. She's been going out with them until they want more than she wants to give and moves on to the next. She plainly has said she's afraid of getting into another because she's afraid she'll lose herself in the same way.
> 
> So this will take a while for me to process I'm sure. But I imagine what you guys are saying, cut contact, mourn the loss and move on.
> 
> BTW - is there a source for these #2 and 3s?
> Last night went out and spent money on myself for a change, new clothes, watch wallet & iPod nano for working out. Can't buy happiness but It does help in the self confidence dept.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LongWalk

lostLove77 said:


> Thanks for the Awareness source.
> 
> So, i did go out with her last night. It was a very nice evening which makes things so confusing for me. Some of things she said sounded like she would have thoughts about getting back together but would hit something in her mind that scared her from our history. We even had a few nice kisses but I can't make any sense of any of it.
> 
> We did speak about IC counselling a bit, she said she's trying to get through her rough year at her school (she's a school counselor herself!) before going. We'll see if that happens.
> 
> I have to get off this drug. Tomorrow is a new day, pick myself back up and try this all again.


----------



## LongWalk

lostLove77 said:


> Text this morning, "I so desperately want to take away your pain". I have no response to send.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LongWalk

lostLove77 said:


> LW - The way she's acting and speaking I don't think she'd give a damn. Maybe it's a front and if I went dark, a few months from now I'd hear something but who the hell knows. This is a woman i cannot figure out in the least. I think she's breaking off yet another person she's been dating saying that she knows he wouldn't pay enough attention to her.... "I'll never had another relationship again" and at the same time her desire is to have another baby.
> 
> Sometimes she sounds so damn sure about what she wants but I have to wonder if she's as lost as I am about some things.


----------



## LongWalk

lostLove77 said:


> Took a few days camping and fishing with my brother. Got a text that she needs to talk to me about a very hard decision that she made while on the way home.
> 
> She got freaked out when I went through the computer and spoke to an attorney about divorce. So she didn't want me surprised to see it in the mail. Also sounds like she's getting sort of serious with a guy she's seeing. What a way to come back from a vacation. Going to be a rough night trying to sleep.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LongWalk

lostLove77 said:


> C-man, I said no to something for the first time ever during this. I am finally seeing the signs tonight of doormat treatment.
> 
> A while ago one of her male friends flipped out on her about not taking their relationship further and she calls me upset. Fast forward to end of last week same thing happened but sounded even worse. She spoke of blocking her number to him etc... I played the fing nice guy and consoles her. Well low and behold I get my daughters tonight and my youngest has some big scratches. My mother asks where they've come from and the girls said they had a picnic last night with this guy and she fell on some rocks. WTF. So one, she's taking my girls to this unstable person and two she's back to a friendship with him.
> 
> God da.... I need a Conrad lockdown for two weeks.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LongWalk

lostLove77 said:


> Thank you all. It has been a lifeline even if you see me make all the same mistakes.
> 
> I spoke to her today about the girls being around this relationship. *This is the same POS she was having an emotional affair with at the end of our marriage. *She agreed to not having the girls around him being I can't do our custody split because of my living situation and I don't think it's fair someone else gets to spend time with them while I barely be to see them.
> 
> On her front it's so strange that she dated around and is now thinking about a more committed relationship with him. I think I can see there will be problems there but hard not to feel replaced.
> 
> Still feeling very lonely but I'm making steps of breaking away. Removing pictures that have her in them from my computer as well as trying to remove anything with a strong tie to her. Have to minimize triggers. Time for a new start.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Already cheating?


----------



## LongWalk

lostLove77 said:


> Quick update. Didn't go as badly as feared or as well as I hoped. Had some small moments with my I laws where it was hard to hold it together. Was fairly cool and aloaf around her and had a good time with my girls and friends
> 
> *Leaving was so hard and she walked me out. Spoke at the car and I exposed myself too much but getting better. Was surprised when she said she hated I don't talk to her anymore.* WTF? I e been talking to her way too much and have always been there for her. She also said that she didn't see it that she quit but that I had quit on her emotionally for years. I just don't fully believe hat. I know I needed work and was resistant but I wasn't a robot by any stretch.
> 
> Go over to friends house to stay the night and for dinner and she calls twice - I reject the calls but its killing me to know why she called.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_[/Q
> 
> seriously cruel but you empowered her


----------



## LongWalk

lostLove77 said:


> Holy $h!t. Just got a text.
> 
> "can we talk one more time, I am not sure about about anything. My mom keeps telling me I have to be sure."


----------



## LongWalk

lostLove77 said:


> Got an email from her mom, she had him there before the party and had wanted her parents to meet him! WTF does she want from me!?


----------



## LongWalk

lostLove77 said:


> It was when she called me the other week scared because this guy was freaking out and said he was harassing her. Then, the next week she's taking my daughters out on a picnic with him. The same guy she was having an EA with during our marriage. That was the straw!


----------



## LongWalk

lostLove77 said:


> So, spoke to her about some summer camps for the girls and I ask about her still being simply friends with these guys. She saus she doesbr want to talj about it and i press her. It pisses her off.* She actually started to say something like "do you want me to sit here all by myself in PA"*. "If I said I don't want to talk about something don't press it". You don't ever listen and appreciate my feelings, if you love me you'd trust what I told you. I cut off all damaging relationships.... Sigh, I was afraid of her anger and reverted.
> 
> She is open to going to counseling but at this point I don't see it so much as couples counseling but something else I can't describe.
> 
> I think I have to cut loose but I haven't quite bought into it yet.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LongWalk

lostLove77 said:


> I probably should get a voice recorder to be able to remember the details of these calls but I don't think i'd have the guts to listen over again.
> 
> But it generally started that I felt like we were starting to connect in some ways and the conversation turned to the all might Facebook. She had sent an invite long ago to her new account and I told her I thought it might be fun again. Well she responded a bit apprehensively about Facebook in general and how it's getting out of control and she feels like people are invading her privacy and it causes too many questions and told me she didn't want me to get upset about some guys posting things on her threads.
> 
> This lead to her saying she was still friends and such with this guy she had her emotional (and later while separated possible physical) affair. No relationship but she would always consider him a good friend.
> 
> *I pressed if any of her relationships were physical and she drew a line and said she didn't want any of her answers used against her, i guess that pretty much tells me my answer.*
> 
> Really it boils down to a few things for her.
> She feels marriage and relationships didn't work for her. She lost herself and in her words she needs to feel that someone is inspired to be silly and warm with her. She's not ready to be in a relationship and wants her freedom.
> 
> There is another counseling session scheduled for next week - now that he has a lot of the ground work I think I want to go to this session with her feelings above as a starting point and see where it goes. I feel I have full expectations for a divorce but we'll see if lawyers are needed. Who knows what else will be said.


----------



## LongWalk

lostLove77 said:


> So much has happened I'm having a hard time yet again processing all this. I know we are both in a very dangerous place right now.
> 
> I got a phone call on Thurs from her and she was very sweet. Something seemed different. She seemed more open and asked me to lunch prior to our daughters concert on fri.
> 
> L*ate fri morning I get a call and she's very upset. Turns out posom had freaked out yet again because she broke things off completely. Launching a full smear campaign against her. One of the things that was interesting that he was saying shes a full blown cheater, she cheated on me with him and then other guys on him. Can you believe someone like that?
> 
> She was afraid he'd reach out to me. So, I took the opportunity to punish myself. I asked her to tell me what's been going on before he does. Turns out after the separation they became physical/saying ily but she was still dating others. *
> 
> So I don't know what really made her stop everything and tell me she was open to seeing a counselor but now I'm just conflicted on so many levels.
> 
> I somewhat pray he reaches out to me so I can show him how I feel about guys messing around with a married woman.
> 
> Supposed to see the counselor on wed - my mind is racing in every direction. I'm dying to fight for my family but obviously have major issues.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LongWalk

LL, I had insomnia. But if you follow your own posts, it seems very likely that she cheated before she left you. And the cheating POSOM was only one of them.

So, of course she more than just angry at the world. She must be miserable.


----------



## Conrad

Quite the journal


----------



## LongWalk

Conrad, I don't we are against R if true love shall prevail. But LL needs To give himself a fighting chance
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## catcalls

lostLove77 said:


> sorry guys, was a long evening. I'm sure plenty of lumber would have abounded.
> 
> I actually like the counselor he picked up on things instantly, however he's very much in the camp to repair at all costs.
> 
> Anyway, I'm still processing. However my quick summary of the session is that she needs her time, has no strings to anyone and truly cares about us.
> 
> The Dr's take is that he felt genuine warmth and connection between us and said that 6 months in the grand scheme of all this is not a long time. His advice was to take some time, do what I felt I had to do for myself but let this sit a little bit because she's starting to open up....
> 
> Honestly, writing this it sounds like BS yet there was something in the room as well a lot of my triggers seemed to be losing their edge ever so slightly. When hanging out with the kids last night I wasn't bothered by her phone constantly buzzing from texts, I could feel myself starting to gain self respect. I deserve the love I want, and if she doesn't want to join me it's her loss.
> 
> So, Chuck I'm not running to the lawyers office yet but there is a change in the winds to this dependency and I hope it starts to blow MUCH harder.



honestly reading this makes me feel that she and the MC (and to some extent you) have made her the victim who is suffering from all these feelings, something which hardhearted and emotionless you cannot comprehend. hence you need to work hard to understand her soul and feed it what it need. just BS

you sound a bit more positive about yourself and can start thinking about a life without her. so that is good. but the negative is that you should be raging about her infidelity, yet it is just regarded as a side issue and she has even issues with you bringing it up. that wont do. you cant let her frame the discussions.

anyway, more questions for you

1] if she calls you and says 'honey, i am done thinking, lets get back and recapture the wonderful bond and love we had and unite our family now.' what will you do. run back into her arms no question, stop a while and think but sort of semi enthusiastically move back and forget and forgive her indiscretions. or will you actually say no, we need to sort this out. what is your mindset. are you willing to reconcile at all costs

2] what does she need 6 months time for? really, what for. what is she practically doing in this time. is she just living her life, trying out new dates, going about her daily life and one day at the end of 6 months, bam, it hits her and she knows if she wants to be with you or not. 

otherwise, what is she doing with this time. what thinking has she done so far during your separation.

in hindu tradition, it is a practice of the yogis and mendicants to seek higher knowledge and enlightenment. to do that they meditate for days on end, sometimes months (sometimes years in mythology) wearing very little in a forest and facing all the vagaries of nature, rain, cold, heat etc and suffer and suffer. then one day they have this enlightenment and knowledge and come out of their trance feeling lighter and powerful. 

is your wife planning to do some real introspection in a different environment. or does her introspection consist of dating more men and see if she can snare anyone 'better'. if not at the end of 6 months depending on your state of detachment, she might throw another crumb or hope out there or 'take you back' if you show dangerous signs of leaving her.

personally, i think she to wants you to react or even divorce her one way or the other. i was thinking about this yesterday when i was reading your thread. i wonder if you have been passive in your marriage and have always said, ' as you wish, dear or whatever you like, dear'. to some women they cannot handle this level of passivity. to them it equates to lack of passion and they want more drama in their lives. 

so she leaves telling you some spurious reason like needing time. a part of her is waiting for you to explode, call her on her sh*t and demand answers. instead you opt to wait it out, hoping she will find 'answers'. 

So she ups the ante, goes dating, introduces kids to POSOM, you show some irritation but are still passive,waiting for her to clear her mind. then she sleeps with someone and gets into a 'passionate' relationship with them. part of her loves it, but there is also this feeling that she may be wrong. so she calls you all in a panic wanting you to tell her that she is an adulterous bit*h and you will not tolerate it. subconsciously she wants you to act like a man, call her out on her betrayal, either divorce her or at least make her feel she needs to grovel to get your forgiveness. but guess what even after this you are still passive. in her mind, (please forgive me for saying this)you are a virtual eunuch and worthless. worthless because you will not fight for yourself or consider yourself worthy of a decent woman.

she is not seeking time to reach a conclusion, she is enjoying this journey of 'self discovery' and the drama it brings. the end is not so exciting as it means she is back to being a wife or a divorcee. it is far more fun and illicit to continue this way and have multiple suitors.

personally, she is mentally flawed and to some extent you are to because you let her govern you like this. she treats you this way because you let her. unless you love yourself and consider yourself as a prize who is worthy of a loyal, loving woman you will go through this saga again and again.


----------



## LongWalk

> she is not seeking time to reach a conclusion, she is enjoying this journey of 'self discovery' and the drama it brings. the end is not so exciting as it means she is back to being a wife or a divorcee. it is far more fun and illicit to continue this way and have multiple suitors.


:iagree:

Good analysis above. That is why divorce will bring out the truth. The longer LL delays, the more suffering for all.


----------



## LongWalk

On TAM people rediscover their masculinity. They can suddenly sound different.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

catcalls said:


> honestly reading this makes me feel that she and the MC (and to some extent you) have made her the victim who is suffering from all these feelings, something which hardhearted and emotionless you cannot comprehend. hence you need to work hard to understand her soul and feed it what it need. just BS
> 
> you sound a bit more positive about yourself and can start thinking about a life without her. so that is good. but the negative is that you should be raging about her infidelity, yet it is just regarded as a side issue and she has even issues with you bringing it up. that wont do. you cant let her frame the discussions.
> 
> anyway, more questions for you
> 
> 1] if she calls you and says 'honey, i am done thinking, lets get back and recapture the wonderful bond and love we had and unite our family now.' what will you do. run back into her arms no question, stop a while and think but sort of semi enthusiastically move back and forget and forgive her indiscretions. or will you actually say no, we need to sort this out. what is your mindset. are you willing to reconcile at all costs
> 
> 2] what does she need 6 months time for? really, what for. what is she practically doing in this time. is she just living her life, trying out new dates, going about her daily life and one day at the end of 6 months, bam, it hits her and she knows if she wants to be with you or not.
> 
> otherwise, what is she doing with this time. what thinking has she done so far during your separation.
> 
> in hindu tradition, it is a practice of the yogis and mendicants to seek higher knowledge and enlightenment. to do that they meditate for days on end, sometimes months (sometimes years in mythology) wearing very little in a forest and facing all the vagaries of nature, rain, cold, heat etc and suffer and suffer. then one day they have this enlightenment and knowledge and come out of their trance feeling lighter and powerful.
> 
> is your wife planning to do some real introspection in a different environment. or does her introspection consist of dating more men and see if she can snare anyone 'better'. if not at the end of 6 months depending on your state of detachment, she might throw another crumb or hope out there or 'take you back' if you show dangerous signs of leaving her.
> 
> personally, i think she to wants you to react or even divorce her one way or the other. i was thinking about this yesterday when i was reading your thread. i wonder if you have been passive in your marriage and have always said, ' as you wish, dear or whatever you like, dear'. to some women they cannot handle this level of passivity. to them it equates to lack of passion and they want more drama in their lives.
> 
> so she leaves telling you some spurious reason like needing time. a part of her is waiting for you to explode, call her on her sh*t and demand answers. instead you opt to wait it out, hoping she will find 'answers'.
> 
> So she ups the ante, goes dating, introduces kids to POSOM, you show some irritation but are still passive,waiting for her to clear her mind. then she sleeps with someone and gets into a 'passionate' relationship with them. part of her loves it, but there is also this feeling that she may be wrong. so she calls you all in a panic wanting you to tell her that she is an adulterous bit*h and you will not tolerate it. subconsciously she wants you to act like a man, call her out on her betrayal, either divorce her or at least make her feel she needs to grovel to get your forgiveness. but guess what even after this you are still passive. in her mind, (please forgive me for saying this)you are a virtual eunuch and worthless. worthless because you will not fight for yourself or consider yourself worthy of a decent woman.
> 
> she is not seeking time to reach a conclusion, she is enjoying this journey of 'self discovery' and the drama it brings. the end is not so exciting as it means she is back to being a wife or a divorcee. it is far more fun and illicit to continue this way and have multiple suitors.
> 
> personally, she is mentally flawed and to some extent you are to because you let her govern you like this. she treats you this way because you let her. unless you love yourself and consider yourself as a prize who is worthy of a loyal, loving woman you will go through this saga again and again.


No way to say this better.


----------



## lostLove77

Guys, just keep whacking away - I know why you're saying this and I am weak.

THIS AM Texting (Analyze Away) -

Mrs LL: I was so stressed about xyz about the kids this morning I forgot to tell them it was my birthday

Mr LL: Awe, They love you so

Mrs LL: You think so? Feeling that from you is the best gift of all

Mr LL: They adore mommy

Mrs LL: Aw, that makes me happy


----------



## Conrad

lostLove77 said:


> Guys, just keep whacking away - I know why you're saying this and I am weak.
> 
> THIS AM Texting (Analyze Away) -
> 
> Mrs LL: I was so stressed about xyz about the kids this morning I forgot to tell them it was my birthday
> 
> Mr LL: Awe, They love you so
> 
> Mrs LL: You think so? Feeling that from you is the best gift of all
> 
> Mr LL: They adore mommy
> 
> Mrs LL: Aw, that makes me happy


You make a habit of kissing her ass?


----------



## lostLove77

Lol, i well i wasn't trying to. The kids do adore her. I know she knows this, so I guess she is hoping I'll validate everything...

This just sucks.


----------



## catcalls

Conrad said:


> You make a habit of kissing her ass?


well he is not being very dutiful is he. so she needs to remind him that she has needs and her ego tank needs to be topped up regularly.


----------



## LongWalk

LL, you just love her no matter what. Even if she has the baby with another man, you will still love her. A few months ago she kissed you. How many other kisses have you had since? How many has she given? Why not ask for a kiss? Tell her that the next you meet you expect her to come up and to you and give you a passionate kiss.

Don't write the word "please", "would", "might", or "may".

The next time I see you I expect a passionate kiss.

What have you to lose?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lostLove77

You know Walk I will.

She's still feels she wants to work on a friendship and have her freedom. I'm going to send Walk's message, man up and tighten my contact with her, show up to the counseling session we have scheduled next wednesday and my last promise of going NC if there is no progress that I'm happy with. Not sure I'm going to file but work really hard on NC. As hard as i've tried to work on this relationship by myself.

I don't want to be a best friend any more.


----------



## lostLove77

"When I see you I expect a passionate kiss. "

She's dropping kids off today after work


----------



## lostLove77

ummm, that was fast -
"ok sounds good "

slightly confused.


----------



## Conrad

lostLove77 said:


> "When I see you I expect a passionate kiss. "
> 
> She's dropping kids off today after work


Hold it for 10 seconds.

Then take her upstairs.


----------



## lostLove77

Damn, thing is that I can't. Kids drop off at my office parking lot. Won't be alone with her until our session on Wednesday. 

But, i thought everyone was saying she has to show remorse, beg forgiveness before i even touch her.


----------



## Tron

Guys/Conrad, 

I suggested something very similar in PM. Isn't that peculiar? 

LL is doing the exchange in a parking lot at work. 

I suggested he let her do her thing, passionate kiss...whatever, and as she turns away grab her and give her a hard kiss. Get a little rough, grab her ass and give her a few "I want to F' you" grunts.

I am really curious about her response. 

If she is intrigued then we have us a new ballgame.


----------



## GutPunch

Hey, a little advice. Banging your wife is a good thing.
Here's the key. No expectations afterward. Alpha Male.

Do not be needy afterwards. I made this mistake.

Give it to her and then walk away.

JMO
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

lostLove77 said:


> Damn, thing is that I can't. Kids drop off at my office parking lot. Won't be alone with her until our session on Wednesday.
> 
> But, i thought everyone was saying she has to show remorse, beg forgiveness before i even touch her.


We're saying that before you can successfully reconcile.

Showing her your alpha side will make her want you.

Rather than follow her directive like a puppy, I'd have a little fun with it this time.

Are you bold enough to passionately kiss her hand?

You may even want to perform a little fellatio on her index finger... and draw it out long while looking up into her eyes.

Tell us what you see.


----------



## LongWalk

Your job is to confuse her. She has already confused you enough. You have to take command. Enjoy the kiss for a moment but you break it off. Look her in the eye and say no more other men, ever. Don't repeat it or discuss it. No more kisses. Then continue with the plan, calm and secure. Confidence. She has no good cards left, except you.

Of course if you can give her a hard banging in the parking lot, you'll surpass Bullwinkle.

GP, I think you might be misreading what happened with your wife that time. She was already into drugs again then. She said she was afraid if using you as a crutch. Did you ask her to explain?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tron

lostLove77 said:


> Damn, thing is that I can't. Kids drop off at my office parking lot. Won't be alone with her until our session on Wednesday.
> 
> But, i thought everyone was saying she has to show remorse, beg forgiveness before i even touch her.


No. You will need those to successfully reconcile for you. 

If you become the man she wants bad enough, she will realize how bad she F'ed up--->remorse--->begging forgiveness----->etc.

You are still listening to her spew her BS and you still don't seem to know or understand what kind of man she really wants. This will give you an indication. ALPHA???


----------



## lostLove77

LongWalk said:


> Look her in the eye and say no more other men, ever. Don't repeat it or discuss it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't know why but I can tell i'll have a hard time saying that. Probably cause I don't believe she'd follow through with that.

Oh my god, that sounds terrible on every level!

Alright, nothing to lose.


----------



## Tron

Conrad said:


> Rather than follow her directive like a puppy, I'd have a little fun with it this time.
> 
> Are you bold enough to passionately kiss her hand?
> 
> You may even want to perform a little fellatio on her index finger... and draw it out long while looking up into her eyes.


Ohhhhhh GAWD!!! Conrad, you're killin' me here. 

Is this your go-to move? Just wondering if Janie really eats that $hit up or are you just jerking our chain?


----------



## Conrad

Tron said:


> Ohhhhhh GAWD!!! Conrad, you're killin' me here.
> 
> Is this your go-to move? Just wondering if Janie really eats that $hit up or are you just jerking our chain?


I've done it.

The key is, you have to be confident to do it.

The eye-lock at the end assures you get horizontal within 30 minutes or so.

What I don't want him to do is to go along with what she tells him to do. Use his imagination and mix it up.

After he blows her away with this, the next time he sees her he can plant the MMSLP 10 second kiss on her.

She'll start wondering who the hell this guy is.

Which is EXACTLY what we want her to start wondering.


----------



## GutPunch

LongWalk said:


> Your job is to confuse her. She has already confused you enough. You have to take command. Enjoy the kiss for a moment but you break it off. Look her in the eye and say no more other men, ever. Don't repeat it or discuss it. No more kisses. Then continue with the plan, calm and secure. Confidence. She has no good cards left, except you.
> 
> Of course if you can give her a hard banging in the parking lot, you'll surpass Bullwinkle.
> 
> GP, I think you might be misreading what happened with your wife that time. She was already into drugs again then. She said she was afraid if using you as a crutch. Did you ask her to explain?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She was still battling the drugs at the time. In her mind, that is why it didn't work.

However, my neediness was still a mistake. I have learned it is always 
a mistake.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

lostLove77 said:


> I don't know why but I can tell i'll have a hard time saying that. Probably cause I don't believe she'd follow through with that.
> 
> Oh my god, that sounds terrible on every level!
> 
> Alright, nothing to lose.


Stay with us brother.

You're starting to hear yourself.

And, it's making you sick.

That's a GOOD thing.


----------



## LongWalk

Makes sense, GP. 

LL, You are your own man. Get rid of the needy you.Look her in the eye. Whatever you do, no vacillation. Don't look back, wave or smile. Watch the Eastwood clip again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

Cool seduction isn't neediness


----------



## lostLove77

I don't know why but as today has drawn on I've just lost all my confidence. I don't know if you guys went through this but this whole experience has emasculated me. Feelings of never meeting anyone, unattractive and simply cold inside.

Her moving on, and being told how frequently men want to take her out.... I feel a shell of what i was. I know you make your own self worth but i keep going through these cycles with my confidence like this.


----------



## Conrad

lostLove77 said:


> I don't know why but as today has drawn on I've just lost all my confidence. I don't know if you guys went through this but this whole experience has emasculated me. Feelings of never meeting anyone, unattractive and simply cold inside.
> 
> Her moving on, and being told how frequently men want to take her out.... I feel a shell of what i was. I know you make your own self worth but i keep going through these cycles with my confidence like this.


With her background, she knows no other way.

Hurt you before you hurt her.

What it likely means is she REALIZES what you represent, and doesn't want you to realize your marketability.

Beat you down so you'll feel worthless enough to stay with her.


----------



## GutPunch

It's down because of what she has done. Get it back.


----------



## Tron

Conrad said:


> What it likely means is she REALIZES what you represent, and doesn't want you to realize your marketability.
> 
> Beat you down so you'll feel worthless enough to stay with her.


LL. Just say this to yourself over and over.


----------



## lostLove77

I just don't believe she's doing that. She says over and over that she wants me to be happy and I should move on.

She's said the stuff about a lot of guys wanting to have relationships with her when telling me women will be beating down my door. I haven't even heard a knock and it seems a bit easier for women to find a man if she wants to, but that's just my opinion I'm sure. 

She's not trying to hide me, in fact she's been telling me to find someone...


----------



## ReGroup

lostLove77 said:


> I just don't believe she's doing that. She says over and over that she wants me to be happy and I should move on.
> 
> She's said the stuff about a lot of guys wanting to have relationships with her when telling me women will be beating down my door. I haven't even heard a knock and it seems a bit easier for women to find a man if she wants to, but that's just my opinion I'm sure.
> 
> She's not trying to hide me, in fact she's been telling me to find someone...


Yup, she's probably saying that about the old you.

The new you? If you Alpha up??? She'll be calling those women knocking on your door... "who*es" in no time.


----------



## Conrad

lostLove77 said:


> I just don't believe she's doing that. She says over and over that she wants me to be happy and I should move on.
> 
> She's said the stuff about a lot of guys wanting to have relationships with her when telling me women will be beating down my door. I haven't even heard a knock and it seems a bit easier for women to find a man if she wants to, but that's just my opinion I'm sure.
> 
> She's not trying to hide me, in fact she's been telling me to find someone...


Rationalizing her misdeeds..... you'll be "fine"... etc.

Heard all that crap before.


----------



## catcalls

lostLove77 said:


> I just don't believe she's doing that. She says over and over that she wants me to be happy and I should move on.
> 
> She's said the stuff about a lot of guys wanting to have relationships with her when telling me women will be beating down my door. I haven't even heard a knock and it seems a bit easier for women to find a man if she wants to, but that's just my opinion I'm sure.
> 
> She's not trying to hide me, in fact she's been telling me to find someone...


how about you realise that she is not your friend. she really does not care much about you. i would say she really does not respect you and really likes to see you ground down. at this point she is also not your wife

you can test these theories quite easily, but you need to stop focusing on her and start working on building yourself up. once you start divorcing her, you will see that she will fight you for every cent. plus she will throw in her oscar nominated performance of why are you treating me so badly.

you should have ignored her birthday. you should ignore her. it is unhealthy for you. move back into town, get a social life apart from her, enjoy your children. she is not a prize worth fighting for. she needs to be fighting for you


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## LongWalk

Regardless if you get the kiss or the lay you must file for divorce. Otherwise, you will never make an impression. If you alpha up and divorce she may chase you. You cannot chase
Her. That is over
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

lostLove77 said:


> I just don't believe she's doing that. She says over and over that she wants me to be happy and I should move on.
> 
> She's said the stuff about a lot of guys wanting to have relationships with her when telling me women will be beating down my door. I haven't even heard a knock and it seems a bit easier for women to find a man if she wants to, but that's just my opinion I'm sure.
> 
> She's not trying to hide me, in fact she's been telling me to find someone...


Those are words. But not her meanings. The entire discussion about open marriage is her game. Start divorce and she'll think about you much more than she does at present. Take up Muay Thai
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

If she wanted you to move on, she would tell you that OM 3 was different from all of you. And when rose to the bait and asked how, she would say that he was bigger and sigh. That would help you to move on, wouldn't it? 

1) At next MC stay more or less silent. A quarter through the session when it's about your turn to speak, ignore them. Look at your watch and then thank him: say "Jude, I think you gAve it your best shot, thank you. I won't be coming back, then leave. Just give your wife a slight nod. Let them analyze you with the remaining time.

2) Go dark on your wife, send her a link to Google calendar for the kids. Stop all calling and texting. When she calls just say you're busy and will call back. Don't call back. If she gets huffy on the phone, just hang up.

3) File for divorce, get a mean attorney.

4) You work still, right? Do you like your job? Your colleagues? If yes, remind yourself, that you are appreciated for your competence. Do not let people dump extra work on you because you are a nice guy. If you have a marketable CV, get a better one. Better might be less commute time, so you have time for yourself and kids.

5) skiing, is that your sport?
Maybe you should organize a ski trip for single parent families? Choose a cool destination, good accommodations. Market by word of mouth via FB. Calculate in something to cover your costs. Are you still working out?

6) block your wife on FB

7) limit consumption of alcohol, porn, etc

8) practice flirting with women wherever
Don't it take seriously.

About women:
Once my daughter had new riding instructor. A young woman named Kelly, which is not a common name in the country where I live. 

"Ah, Kelly, Kelly from Ireland," I joked spontaneously.

This little remark that implied that she was potentially exotic attracted her to me. The next time I was there I was reading a story aloud to my daughter in quiet spot on the second floor because we were early. Kind of a nice little spot, bits of straw dust in the air mingled with the smell of horse sweat and dung. The stable cat walked aloofly by and my daughter went to try a pet it. I stood up and noticed that around the corner there stood Kelly. She had been listening. The dad who made her feel special with the offhand flirty remark was a cool dad who could read well. She was looking for reasons to increase her infatuation. I could see that was flustered my presence, although IRL she knew nothing about me.

She was way too young for me to pursue. I think I was freshly divorced or my marriage sh!tty at the time, so I was just friendly with her. She entered the annual jumping competition with one of the disobedient school ponies and easily came in first place. Cute girl, probably an MILF with kids of her own by now. Romance is like this. There has to be a bit of mystery. Women want to attract an alpha male who needs to understand that she is the one, there are obstacles and misunderstandings that stop true love but in the end everything works out.

Your wife is a wh0re for these fantasies. The problem now is that you must recover a masculine image to attract her. Divorce is now the obvious first step in courtship between you. It is not a good form of wooing but is all you have. By cuckolding you she has diminished your sex ranking. You cannot have R without repairing yourself. Catch is if you do fix yourself, you won't want her. Intuitively she knows this. Sadly, at this point you are an option because she has trashed her own reputation, not just to OM1, you and mom, but to herself. She must feel rather used and degraded. That is why she spoke of quitting texting. Those guys who dated her texted her sweet messages, that got hotter, until her panties came off








_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

Some liken a marriage struck by infidelity to broken plate which even if it can be glued together will never be as good as new. For this reason R is a hard choice.

I see your marriage rather more like a boat that your wife left. She told you to guard it. Before she departed she secretly drilled a hole in the hull. This betrayal was OM 1. Yes, the boat may have borne heavy stones that you put in. But the ship's integrity was intact until she sabotaged it. You stayed with the ship and baled day and night. You wanted her see how hard you were now trying. Whatever stones you had burdened the boat with you cursed and threw out. Your wife sent you mixed messages, seeming almost to encourage you all the while she drilled new holes and slit the sails. OMs 2, 3, 4, and 5. How many she would not say but she now bears these secrets. She told you to drill holes, too. Never did she tell you to desert the ship. Of course, the ship sunk.

MC was the salvage. Winched up to land. The two of you had to decide whether to repair and re launch. The engine is one factor you. If you spray it clean, put new plugs in and fuel up, who knows maybe if will turn over and purr into life. Perhaps this sex, for without this force, the boat cannot take you anywhere. Sex is not enough. You must repair the holes, flush out the mud, replace the rotting curtains and cushions. Time is running out. Mold is growing.

But what is the point of searching for the holes. Your wife must point them out. She must do some major confession. If she will not put in the work, you can put the boat back in the sea. But it will only sink. This is why MC without an end to the affairs is a waste of time. Why fix the boat if she is still drilling in it?

Divorce would be the destruction of the wreck. If you file for divorce, it may be a great relief for her, for although she has some feelings for you. It is mainly nostalgia. If she wanted to fix your boat, she would get to work. She would smile at you and ask you start the engine to see if it will go again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lostLove77

Very eloquent. Trying to focus on me for a change but I today I can't believe she brought posom into my children's lives. 

With all said and done, just not ready to interview lawyers yet. Guess I'm in for the scenic route but hell, I'm under 40 pages so I'm only a 1/3 way in by some of these threads!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

You mean you have new evidence that she let strange men eat breakfast with your children?

LL, what do you do for a living if I may ask? You must have book learning, not that is any guarantee if anything. But if you are analytical and study other threads, you must at some intellectual level have considerable insight by now? If you have read Gut Punch's story you will see that he is quite an alpha guy instinctually but had to change the pattern of behavior that contributed to his situation. Humor is very strong element of a healthy response to tragedy.

Bullwinkle is another example. A thread with great intelligence but little humor is Moxy, who is unable to divorce against her own judgment. It is costing her too much. You could read hers. So Conflicted is another. If you can interact with them, you can help yourself. I appreciate your company.

Understand that your love for your wife makes her beautiful to others although her behavior is repulsive. I am willing to believe that there is still something good or attractive that remains in her. However, you are contributing to its destruction by refusing to reclaim your masculinity. Without boundaries, the mold and rot in your ruined marriage will overwhelm whatever health or beauty remains.

Why do you hesitate to file for divorce since it is the only instrument you have to impress your wife of your strength? You can cancel divorce if real change takes place. Even though you have been to MC, what makes you think she has stopped all those guys from sexting her? Surely, when they are horny they try to lure her back into having sex without strings. How many of them are married? The likelihood that she will contract herpes or HPV grows with each new experimental relationship. 

Don't you fear that your wife now has a habit like drug addiction? She wants a man to pursue her. She enjoys the attention but understands that will only last as long as sexual favors are granted. She enjoys the sex, too. But the orgasms she has with these guys, some of whom maybe married, are destroying her love for you. The failures of those love affairs are not bringing her closer to you. If you have a soft R with her she will not give up her desire for strange. She cheated on OM one with several guys by her own admission. In your, frankly worthless MC, sessions, you should ask him if she felt the same pain as you? Each new lover lashed his soul, too, did it not? He thought that the way his strokes affected her were special, but another man's d!ck replaced his.

The sick truth is that she feels some power when men pant like dogs over the prospect of her. If the dogs quarrel over her vagina, that also excites her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

Also, TAM advises against relationship talk with WS. If, however, you could talk about it, it would interesting to know which of you has the highest sex ranking? One could guess that the POS who treats her with least regard has the highest ranking. One can text "I miss you, babe". She ignores him but is excited. "Really," he writes after 15 minutes. 

"Liar," she answers.

To make a short story shorter, he gives her another quick pounding.

"You'rethe best, babe," he says on his way out the door.

You and POSOM 1 are forgotten completely for awhile. But when he doesn't engage emotionally, she feels horrible about her situation. She is reminded about you by your children she is comforted a little by the thought of you but she does not feel any desire for you. She does not want to see her family because her mother is so on her case. POSOM 1 is such a traitor. He has spread lies about her via FB, even to colleagues. It makes school h€ll. Now she hates her job. 

If the rumors get back to you, things will get worse.

You are the only person who loves her in spite of all the fvcking up.

If you give her comfort and understanding, she will just continue f'ing up even if you have sex now.

You need to give her the D papers to make her see you with different eyes.

Ask yourself where you stand in her list of men. 

The next time she seeks comfort and approval, ask her would she rather sleep with POSOM 1 or you? Her answer now is neither and that sucks.

As to love, she will always love you at some deep level. You have children together. In one TAM thread a guy divorced for 6 or 7 years learned that his ex was dying of cancer. He had not had any contact for years. He asked his new GF for permission to go say farewell. She was in coma on a drip. The nurse let him in. He held her hand and thought he saw tears and felt a faint squeeze. It was emotional to say the least. You can have such a drama in the future. Is it enough to hang on for? You cannot nice her into passion. Forget it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lostLove77

Long, you are spot on in many ways. She has even spoken about the nostalgia. I honestly don't think it's been a parade of me. But one is enough. 

I know you are all frustrated with me but I want to walk into that lawyers office confident and welled up with anger. I'm not there yet. I actually feel abused and still in a weird survival mode that I can tell I'm breaking out of but revert back to for periods.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

The clouds are low in sky. I am sitting in restaurant by the water in a Norwegian harbor town. An 18-year-old woman is sitting across from me. She is my daughter. Hard to believe she can buy a beer in a bar. All around me are her teamates. One has just made a speech thanking their coach, a middle aged guy like me. He has agreed to stay on another two years. They gave him a present and he looked a little moved. I hope my daughter will make the team again during the next two years when there are two big international events.

I don't know him well but I like and trust him. I looked at his ring finger and there is a band there. I would never dream of him having an affair with a player he coached. That would legal but wrong. Our lives are built on trust. He and another decide who makes the team, a dream. Dreams are built on trust. And yet every year we read about coaches, teachers and priests having illicit relations.

If an ordinary young mother separates and cheats on her husband it is no news event: just business for MCs and attorneys. You can hardly talk to your neighbors so you pour your heart out to strangers on the Internet. They must be fellow sufferers or they would not be here. You know we are not lying to you. There is a strong bullish!t detector built in TAM. You trust us now that you cannot trust your own wife.

Fortunately, TAM posters cannot really lie, unless you feed them bad info. You should reread your thread and trust yourself. There are certain facts that you have presented, namely that your wife has not left for a lover but a search for entertainment and your replacement. her mother and OM 1 are disappointed and outraged respectively. She is not a young woman who has been seduced by a predator. She is becoming an addict of short EA/PAs.

It is a very unhealthy situation for your children. It is to them that you now owe primary responsibility. Recognizing and acting on this will raise your sense of self respect. You wonder why you are not attracting women. I assure you if you say to yourself on Monday I will file, for the sake of my family, broken though it maybe. Once you face this you will able to talk to women again. You will become the real deal. You will know which ones to take seriously, or at least you will recognize bad choices much more quickly.

If you respect yourself and your children, your MIL will tell your wife that she is a fool. Maybe WW will beg you to take her back, maybe not. But if she does not come back on your term, i.e., genuine remorse, then your R will be a piece of dawg sh!t

Your wife says that she wants to stop attention wh*ring but keep her freedom. She cannot handle freedom. She may relieved to have it restricted.

When she replied to your text for kiss her answer sounded like the talk of a tart. We want you to have an honest passionate kiss from her, not a cheap, seductive, sl*tty one.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lostLove77

Her answer did sound flighty and not very passionate. The kiss itself was good but something was missing. The thought of filing is becoming more real. 

Just today I didn't buy into her BS. The only texts I received today was on some questions regarding some medical stuff with the girls and if I had did xyz. I said the condition looked clear for both of them and her response was that she still had it  always a victim, not one ounce of concern for me or to say happy Father's Day. 

I desperately wanted to say ask your bf to help you. But just didn't respond.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Awakening2012

lostLove77 said:


> always a victim, not one ounce of concern for me or to say happy Father's Day.
> 
> I desperately wanted to say ask your bf to help you. But just didn't respond.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Happy Father's Day, LL! Good for you, not responding. Jeez, to think that it did not occur to her or she could not be bothered to acknowledge Father's Day -- ughhh! 

Take care and I hope you get to spend some quality time with your kids today.

Best,- A12


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## LongWalk

Once you file you will stronger. You didn't mention that she followed through with the kiss, but her passionless kiss on demand demonstrates how she will do things with men for attention. Since no longer considers you her lover, the kiss was like prostitution. You give her financial and emotional support and you get a half-hearted kiss. Maybe she'll even give sex now as long as you don't insist that she climaxes. That will just make you worse than before.

Do you have a written agreement for custody? File for divorce. Go 180. Do you think she has reconciled with POSOM 1? He is a dope smoking carpenter musician right? Get the a couple CD with "if I were a carpenter and you were lady" put in your car. When she discovers that she "hates it when you don't talk to her" and has to chase you out to the car, just turn the volume up to tune her out. Let her go back her carpenter.

Once you have filed she won't have this evil power over you. She once told you that she would not tell you how many of the she dated got into panties because it was incriminating. You write that you got your answer. She expected you to get really angry, but were already so numb that you couldn't think. Great that you
wrote it down because you should read over and over until you square your shoulders and walk into your attorneys office.

Does POSOM have a criminal record or credit problems?

LL, you are upright guy, so I unconsciously assumed that all the other Other men were respectable guys like you and that only POSOM1 is a POS. Now I realize that this benefit of the doubt could be wrong. She might affaired down with one or more of them. Were they his friends? How many were married? Why didn't she dump POSOM1 on favor of Mr POSOM2 or 3? That really is het song.

When she is measuring these guys where dies park your daughters? Is it only your weekends that she actualizes them or does she dump them with the grandparents? Her desire to live closer to family makes sense now: affair infrastructure. And she fantasized about anothet baby!

No wonder you have trouble talking with other women. You have internalized her mental turmoil. So indeed, she should discuss her troubles with her texting f buddies.

LL, she must have the sweetest smile and warmest embrace for you have been so bewitched.
The moment you file, you are going to smile. Maybe your attorney has nice secretary at whom you can grin when you walk out the door. For sure it is all tragic but the absurdity must make you laygh or you will perish in a loveless mental holding tank




_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Frostflower

Happy Father’s Day, LL. I haven’t posted much, but I am following your thread and thinking of you. 

Hope you’re having a great day with your girls.


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## lostLove77

Thanks Frost. 

Saw pictures today of her going out for her birthday with her best friend and OM3. I'm beat to hell over this. She said no relationships and this had to be more than casual. 

I may take the day off tomorrow I see lawyers. I have to keep my nerve one way or another.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

LL, you're going to straighten things out now.

Has she exposed your children to him?

Was this picture on FB? Are you FB friends with her? Block her to reduce the pain.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

lostLove77 said:


> Her answer did sound flighty and not very passionate. The kiss itself was good but something was missing. The thought of filing is becoming more real.
> 
> Just today I didn't buy into her BS. The only texts I received today was on some questions regarding some medical stuff with the girls and if I had did xyz. I said the condition looked clear for both of them and her response was that she still had it  always a victim, not one ounce of concern for me or to say happy Father's Day.
> 
> I desperately wanted to say ask *your bf *to help you. But just didn't respond.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Which boyfriend did you mean?

Your thread suggests 4 or 5, but I could never make out how you keep track of them.



> I may take the day off tomorrow I see lawyers. I have to keep my nerve one way or another.


This is good news for your lawyer but bad for your MC, who is going to lose a good client. You have your next appointment on Wednesday, right? Can you have D filing to hand her in person at the session? Let her talk about her freedom plan and then end the session by giving her the papers.

The most important thing now is not let her twist the knife by showing indifference. Don't expect her to be sorry about the divorce. Your marriage has just been an infidelity support system.

The house she is living in now is common property. You have a right to half of it, too, even if was a financed by her parents.


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## lostLove77

Getting anger in the depths if my stomach. 

Actually just spoke to her and she said this person won't even be in her life in 2 weeks. What? I can't try to follow this anymore.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

lostLove77 said:


> Getting anger in the depths if my stomach.
> 
> Actually just spoke to her and she said this person won't even be in her life in 2 weeks. What? I can't try to follow this anymore.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What nonsense. She needs to have sex with him for another fortnight?

Were the pictures on FB?

Clearly she likes to carry on her affairs honestly so that everyone can see how many suitors she has. If you went to her with a piece jewel encrusted gold, she would take it without a thought and give you a little tongue play.

But the point now is not to try and figure out how broken she is. That cannot be easily fixed. I suspect none of the POSOM will commit to her. She is impossibly erratic.

Can you sue the MC for malpractice?


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## GutPunch

Please file for Divorce asap.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tron

lostLove77 said:


> ?..always a victim, not one ounce of concern for me or to say happy Father's Day.


And



lostLove77 said:


> Saw pictures today of her going out for her birthday with her best friend and OM3. I'm beat to hell over this. She said no relationships and this had to be more than casual.
> 
> I may take the day off tomorrow I see lawyers. I have to keep my nerve one way or another.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


File.


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## lostLove77

That fn counselor told me to fight last week. Ugh!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Bullwinkle

File. Tomorrow morning.


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## LongWalk

Good morning from Europe. My daughter made it home from Oslo to Stockholm. First time she ever took flight by herself. You will enjoy seeing your children do the same. It happens all too quickly.

I predicted your wife would kiss you, LL. But I did not know what sort of kiss it would be. No one really knows what tomorrow will bring. I predict that if you follow through on the divorce papers, your wife will try much harder to talk with you than at any time during the past year.

However, you should not talk with her about anything but your children to see if she will change her behavior. Go hard 180. If she begs for reconciliation, and shows remorse, you can consider sleeping sleeping with her. She may put it on the table.

It is unlikely that she will be sincere yet. Her tears will be those of a crocodile. Her love an unwilling collaborator. She may be so far gone that she will blow you off entirely. At least the truth will not be concealed. You will begin to heal. Let us find out if your wife will recover (attempt to heal herself).

You sound stronger already. We are with you.

Have you read Gut Punch's thread? Do so, it will inspire you.


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## lostLove77

Hey Long. Glad things went well with your daughter. 

I'm home sick in bed but need to do some research on the divorce process. Really don't want to pay lawyers. 

First time she used the phrase "not in love". There's no coming back from that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GutPunch

End this charade.

Take some control back.

Visit the Lawyer. No other option. The 
legal system is a game and you have to play it or 
you lose t he game.


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## Frostflower

Hope you feel better soon, LL. Physically and emotionally.


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## Chuck71

lostLove77 said:


> Guys, just keep whacking away - I know why you're saying this and I am weak.
> 
> THIS AM Texting (Analyze Away) -
> 
> Mrs LL: I was so stressed about xyz about the kids this morning I forgot to tell them it was my birthday
> 
> Mr LL: Awe, They love you so
> 
> Mrs LL: You think so? Feeling that from you is the best gift of all
> 
> Mr LL: They adore mommy
> 
> Mrs LL: Aw, that makes me happy




Catching up on thread.....I read this

yet to turn page but I hope the 2x4s were plenty


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## Chuck71

LL File as I stated in thread last week

File and rub it in her face

like you received pardon from death row

file because she seems to desire riding more people

than Greyhound

FILE


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## LongWalk

Hi LL,

Hope you are feeling better.

You could not digest what has and is happening because it is too much. A wife who left you for another man, okay, there is something comprehensible. A wife who just walked away, okay, it would hurt but you could start to get your head around it. If it had just been one guy, or a wife who wanted divorce because she couldn’t stand you, you would have filed by now.

A wife who has slept with 4 or 5 guys without ending relations in between, that is hard to fathom. And she has used you as her sounding board for approval. Yikes!

What impact has this had on her personality? Who knows what she has experienced. All of deception she has (mis)managed. Her brains must be scrambled. What can be left of the sense of integrity? She actually seems to consider herself an honest person in some odd way. How on earth, I wonder, can she counsel students? How will she ever be able to teacher your daughters how to behave with boys?

She is not in love with you. But is she even capable of a monogamous relationship with anyone now? Did your MIL say anything about this?

Maybe Turnera or some other woman poster can explain what goes on in the head of WAW who is promiscuous. Frankly, I think she has gone into free fall.

You didn’t explain, where the pictures came from, but I guess Facebook. So, she is not at all discrete. She parades her paramours in a fashion that can only make LTR with solid guys more difficult.

You don’t know much about POSOM 3, but how long will he last? Whatever she is searching for in one guy may not exist in real life. If she settled on one guy who was normal, that would be far better than her endless quest.

You will find out more about her when you file for D and go 180 because she is not the kind of woman who likes to be ignored. She is probably going to send you some weird email. But if she ignores you, so be it, it will make it easier.

Your long separation from your children is now a potential legal difficulty. Hope she doesn’t pull the sole custody battle BS. Perhaps you should get her to tell the MC what qualities you have as a father so that you have something on paper. Maybe MC discussions are confidential but you can ask her to write something out so that you that “you have something good to take away from your marriage”.

Get that endorsement before you give the D papers.


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## LongWalk

Jerry's thread is worth a read. His wife treated him like a nothing. The moment he got serious about divorce and acted self confident, she started having sex with him after many years rejection.


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## LongWalk

LL, the result of a Google. Common sense really. 

*The Sexual Double Standard*

Sexual promiscuity has always been a real issue for women. I’ve written about this previously, in The Sex Risk for Women That No One Likes to Talk About. Known as the double-standard, invented and perpetrated by patriarchy, feminists refuse to accept it, which is entirely their right. However, ignoring what is largely a matter of biology is erroneous. The double-standard has historically served a very important purpose in sexual relations, namely that of decreasing false paternity claims, which cost men dearly in emotional and physical resources. Indeed, jealousy is believed to have evolved as a means of discouraging cuckoldry:

“Jealousy, experts agree, is a survival mechanism, although what is most at stake is a matter of debate. The most destructive of passions—it is a leading cause of homicide—and the least studied, it is, like all emotions, born of necessity, with roots deep in our evolutionary past. Its purpose: to help maintain intimate relationships.”

This explains why men have always placed a premium on sexual inexperience when selecting for long-term mating. American men, in selecting among 67 desirable traits, ranked sexual faithfulness and loyalty #1. According to The Evolution of Desire (Buss, 1994):

“Studies demonstrate that women’s preferences for short-term mates include availability as a marriage partner. They strongly resemble their preferences for a husband: kind, romantic, understanding, exciting, stable, healthy, humorous, and generous with resources. In other words, women have high standards for both short-term and long-term relationships, or at least that’s how we’ve evolved thus far.

Conversely, men select for very different traits when seeking short-term sexual partners. Compared with their long-term preferences, men don’t want casual partners who are prudish, conservative or have a low sex drive. In contrast to standards for committed relationships, for short-term sex they want: sexual experience, including promiscuity, and a high sex drive.”

These evolved differences mean that historically, men have not been shamed for having many sexual partners, and indeed they benefit from social proof when women observe their success in attracting other women. In recent years, as the ratio of casual sex/relationship sex has increased dramatically on college campuses, there has been a backlash of sorts, with women indicating that they find extremely promiscuous males unattractive and unworthy. The study is explained more fully in my post It’s About Time: The New Reverse Double Standard.

Men’s natural preference for sexual faithfulness and loyalty in women means that many will reject women who exhibit behaviors that contraindicate for that. A woman’s sexual history serves as a proxy, or indicator of future behavior. It is not perfect, but men can and do make use of this information when selecting partners. This does not mean that a promiscuous woman cannot find a mate, but it does mean that the pool of men from which she may select has shrunk dramatically. A woman may say, “I would never want a guy who felt that way,” and that’s perfectly legitimate. Still, it’s important that she understand the effectiveness of various sexual strategies in mating so that she may make informed decisions.

*It’s also true that a woman who is expending energy seeking and engaging in no-strings sex is not wholly available for a longer-term relationship. Halfwaying it always exacts an opportunity cost and distracts from the long-term objective.

Promiscuity is a poor strategy for women who seek a long-term relationship, or life partner.*


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## LongWalk

Did your wife have many partners before you married?


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## lostLove77

No she didn't LW. 

I just saw she's back with OM1. I confronted her and told her to never speak to me again. 

She called and wanted to talk and said she really wanted to still be friendly. I said that I was done and been completely betrayed and hung up. 

She texted back asking if we could be cordial for the girls. I told her to leave me alone to which she replied that is what I always wanted. Gave the I'm sorry you feel that way, got the no your not....
She then said that if she accepts I'm sorry for being distant would I accept that she's sorry for me feeling betrayed. Jeesh.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tron

lostLove77 said:


> She then said that if she accepts I'm sorry for being distant would I accept that she's sorry for me feeling betrayed. Jeesh.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Uhhhhh. No! "I am sorry you feel betrayed"...WHAT????

How about "I am sorry I am a POS cheating w***e, and you don't deserve to be treated this way." 

I think she has a screw loose. :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:


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## lostLove77

Well honestly those weren't exact words. Her words were:
"so if i can accept that u r sorry why can't you accent that i am deeply sorry too". 

We were speaking to her relationship with OM1 so, i just connected the dots there.


----------



## lostLove77

Well honestly those weren't exact words. Her words were:
"so if i can accept that u r sorry why can't you accent that i am deeply sorry too. I know you feel betrayed and I am forever sorry for that". But i'll just keep on going down this road I am sorry about....

We were speaking to her relationship with OM1 so, i just connected the dots there.


----------



## Frostflower

lostLove77 said:


> Well honestly those weren't exact words. Her words were:
> "so if i can accept that u r sorry why can't you accent that i am deeply sorry too. I know you feel betrayed and I am forever sorry for that". But i'll just keep on going down this road I am sorry about....
> 
> We were speaking to her relationship with OM1 so, i just connected the dots there.


Sorry for being distant because you betrayed me/sorry for betraying you and continuing to do so...............yep, those have equal value. What the problem, LL?

(That's sarcasm, by the way.)


----------



## lostLove77

Funny Frost.
Just got another text "you still didn't answer me about being civil". WTH


----------



## lostLove77

Counsel date with the lawyer on the 2nd. Can't get here fast enough.


----------



## LongWalk

Didn't you have MC scheduled for yesterday?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LongWalk

She hated it last time you wouldn't talk to her. Apparently little has changed. 

She has no desire to give up her multiple partner strategy. If you dump her, she might even try to seduce you just to keep up the number of men chasing her. 
Engaging her in discussion will just cause hypertension.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tron

lostLove77 said:


> Funny Frost.
> Just got another text "you still didn't answer me about being civil". WTH


No answer is answer enough. She is just pinging you and keeping you on that string. F' her.

Just go dark and stop letting her dump her crap on you. Make her swallow it herself. It is the only way forward. 

When she comes begging or tries to seduce you, then you deal with her, but otherwise, nothing but kid schedule.


----------



## LongWalk

Tron, do you think she is capable of settling down with one guy?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LongWalk

LL, these sightings, they are on FB. She flaunts her dalliances. It is not a shame, but game to her. Your sadness and love mean nothing. It doesn't seem that the OMs are loved either, at least not very deeply.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lostLove77

Well, she must have freaked out at a friends who I saw all this through as well as her own account and the friend that we shared is blocking me to protect me... I guess. So i'm not sure she wants it known but is a bit ignorant of this stuff.

She has to be head over heals to keep going back to this guy. It's just this first guy she had the EA with during our marriage that she sees with any regularity through the whole process. I could hear it in her voice even when she was saying that she was scared about him freaking out. I could tell in my heart that she was still attached. 

I must push through.


----------



## lostLove77

One of the things she said after I said I was done:
"Every part of this is harder than I ever imagined, every single part". 

Well sweet heart it's about to get a lot harder. You have no idea the load i've been bearing with the debit and living situation.


----------



## Tron

LongWalk said:


> Tron, do you think she is capable of settling down with one guy?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So far there has been no consequences. So who is to say right now? As LL allows it to continue she will carry on doing what she is doing. She has no respect for him...why stop?

When he files and goes dark for a month or two...things may change. I think she'll chase when push comes to shove. 

If I was him, she would have to do more than chase...begging on hands and knees and then maybe I'd think about it...

...for all of about 2 seconds, then dump her azz again. But then, I've been pretty vocal about my feelings about her.


----------



## Tron

lostlove77 said:


> one of the things she said after i said i was done:
> "every part of this is harder than i ever imagined, every single part".
> 
> Well sweet heart it's about to get a lot harder. You have no idea the load i've been bearing with the debit and living situation.


been waiting for this!!!


----------



## LongWalk

LL, she has betrayed you and POSOM1. If you 180 hard, she become emotional about you again. She will gladly use one man to provoke the jealousy of another. She has told you so much for what reason? To make you jealous. She surely talks about you to OM1, about how she feels sorry for you, but you were never good in bed. It has nothing to do with your sex life. It is all spin. She no longer knows the truth herself. 

I bet if you are calm and determined your MIL will even agree that your wife is unfit as a mother

OM1, the carpenter, musician, THC dude displays his temper to keep her pvss wet. If you acted cold, hard, etc. That would impress her, too. Remember the demand for kiss?

What happened to MC?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SurpriseMyself

LongWalk said:


> LL, she has betrayed you and POSOM1. If you 180 hard, she become emotional about you again. She will gladly use one man to provoke the jealousy of another. She has told you so much for what reason? To make you jealous. She surely talks about you to OM1, about how she feels sorry for you, but you were never good in bed. It has nothing to do with your sex life. It is all spin. She no longer knows the truth herself.
> 
> I bet if you are calm and determined your MIL will even agree that your wife is unfit as a mother
> 
> OM1, the carpenter, musician, THC dude displays his temper to keep her pvss wet. If you acted cold, hard, etc. That would impress her, too. Remember the demand for kiss?
> 
> What happened to MC?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I appreciate that there are a lot of men on TAM who have been left and hurt by their wives, but as a wife I have to say that much of the advise the men give each other here seems more manipulative than helpful. I know that most of you were left, many were cheated on, lied to, etc., but acting cold and hard as a way to get your wife back just sounds wrong. Let's say you get her back acting cold and hard to her, then what? Do you have to stay that way for her to stay with you?


----------



## ReGroup

ebp123 said:


> but acting cold and hard as a way to get your wife back just sounds wrong. Let's say you get her back acting cold and hard to her, then what? Do you have to stay that way for her to stay with you?


180. Women are encouraged as well to try this method when facing divorce or infidelity. 

It prevents a person to be steam rolled at the hands of the WS.

We encourage it to build self esteem and self worth.


----------



## LongWalk

Epb123, have you read LL's thread? She has had sexual relations with several men in the space of a half year. At the same time she resists divorce and has taunted LL. At one point she was sobbing on the phone because POSOM1 was violently jealous of POSOM234 and 5. LL has hardly been able to comprehend the scope of her trolling for male attention.

You are a woman. Help us to understand her promiscuity. She is a high school counselor. What sort of reputation does she have at work? Even her Own mother is bewildered. None of the posters here, including Turnera believe reconciliation realistic
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GutPunch

ebp123 said:


> I appreciate that there are a lot of men on TAM who have been left and hurt by their wives, but as a wife I have to say that much of the advise the men give each other here seems more manipulative than helpful. I know that most of you were left, many were cheated on, lied to, etc., but acting cold and hard as a way to get your wife back just sounds wrong. Let's say you get her back acting cold and hard to her, then what? Do you have to stay that way for her to stay with you?


Worked for me! :smthumbup:

Now the then what....I have no earthly idea.


----------



## Tron

ebp123 said:


> I appreciate that there are a lot of men on TAM who have been left and hurt by their wives, but as a wife I have to say that much of the advise the men give each other here seems more manipulative than helpful. I know that most of you were left, many were cheated on, lied to, etc., but acting cold and hard as a way to get your wife back just sounds wrong. Let's say you get her back acting cold and hard to her, then what? Do you have to stay that way for her to stay with you?


EBP,

It would appear that you haven't read LL's thread. She has been trolling for other men's attention since January and by last count had gone through at least 5 and is back to OM#1 now. He, for the record, is a part-time musician, part-time carpenter and full-time pot-head. 

She has consistently rubbed the OP's nose in it the whole time and treats him like her best girlfriend, complaining about those failed relationships...all the while seeking ever more attention from those OMs and...keeping the OP on a puppet string.

For all of the OP's self admitted faults (which frankly did not appear to be as serious or bad as the OP's WW claims) he still loves her and wants her back. Who is manipulating who in this scenario?

It is high time the OP grabbed his nutsack back and kicked her azz to the curb. It sounds like he is there, he just needs to find an attorney to get the D filed.


----------



## LongWalk

Tron said:


> EBP,
> 
> It would appear that you haven't read LL's thread. She has been trolling for other men's attention since January and by last count had gone through at least 5 and is back to OM#1 now. He, for the record, is a part-time musician, part-time carpenter and full-time pot-head.
> 
> She has consistently rubbed the OP's nose in it the whole time and treats him like her best girlfriend, complaining about those failed relationships...all the while seeking ever more attention from those OMs and...keeping the OP on a puppet string.
> 
> For all of the OP's self admitted faults (which frankly did not appear to be as serious or bad as the OP's WW claims) he still loves her and wants her back. Who is manipulating who in this scenario?
> 
> It is high time the OP grabbed his nutsack back and kicked her azz to the curb. It sounds like he is there, he just needs to find an attorney to get the D filed.


:iagree: We have the same reading of the facts. OP is fortunate that he has written them down here in TAM thread because the whole story is so mind boggling. 

Epb123, if you scroll back a few days, you will find a recap of some developments that I posted for LL to reread. The reason that everything has come to a climax is because she declared that she was through with the other men and they she apparently slept with OM3 (birthday celebration) and then OM1 again. All directly after MC.

LL, what happened to the second MC session? Did you cancel it?


----------



## lostLove77

I don't know that she slept with anyone other than OM1. We had to cancel the session because of daughters dentist apt she forgot about. Not surprised she forgot, she always did.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tron

lostLove77 said:


> I don't know that she slept with anyone other than OM1. We had to cancel the session because of daughters dentist apt she forgot about. Not surprised she forgot, she always did.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She has her mind on other things


----------



## LongWalk

lostLove77 said:


> I don't know that she slept with anyone other than OM1. We had to cancel the session because of daughters dentist apt she forgot about. Not surprised she forgot, she always did.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


When you asked her if she had slept with others she replied that she did not want to "incriminate" herself.

OM1 was so desperate that she feared he would reach out to you to complain about her infidelity. You can be certain that OM1 had reason to angry. He was running a smear campaign.

Do you think they reunited because she convinced him she was true to him? Do you think she told OM1 or OM3 that she kissed you?


----------



## LongWalk

Your resolution to end discussions about your relationship with her was a good move. If you do not follow through, she will continue to trample your heart.

Moxy might come and help you. She's smart and very compassionate.


----------



## Tron

LongWalk said:


> Your resolution to end discussions about your relationship with her was a good move. If you do not follow through, she will continue to trample your heart.


:iagree:


----------



## LongWalk

Tron said:


> She has her mind on other things


One of the reasons for her to split was to be closer to her family. She wanted that support. She could have rung her mother and requested help getting their daughter to the dentist.

LL, how many times do you think she has looked forward to you having your children so that she could date freely over a whole weekend? And every time you thought that was happening, you felt that you were being wounded afresh.


----------



## LongWalk

lostLove77 said:


> I pray for the strength to get through the girls birthday party today. My stomach is already in knots lying here in bed. I cannot get my focus off of her. I want the girls to have a special day but I am miserable.
> 
> Yesterday morning I felt so confident but after going to the baseball game and seeking all the families and couples I'm depressed. .
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Just one of the many posts.


----------



## LongWalk

lostLove77 said:


> Thanks for the Awareness source.
> 
> So, i did go out with her last night. It was a very nice evening which makes things so confusing for me. Some of things she said sounded like she would have thoughts about getting back together but would hit something in her mind that scared her from our history. *We even had a few nice kisses but I can't make any sense of any of it*.
> 
> We did speak about IC counselling a bit, she said she's trying to get through her rough year at her school (she's a school counselor herself!) before going. We'll see if that happens.
> 
> I have to get off this drug. Tomorrow is a new day, pick myself back up and try this all again.


Wonder why it was a rough year?


----------



## lostLove77

Well she moved a bit closer but it's still at least an hour and half and her mom doesn't drive, dad is scared of anything other than local driving...

But I get it, I have to shut her out. Hope and excited about the week with my girls. I'm sure ill have moments but Iove them so. Lots of swimming I'm sure.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tron

LL.

If you haven't already, get yourself on some AD's. 

It is time to turn this thing around.


----------



## LongWalk

zillard said:


> Lost - She is using these men she is dating for instant gratification, to boost her self esteem - because she is not comfortable with herself.
> 
> She is using you in the exact same way. Only worse.
> 
> You chasing her is not working. Because it won't.
> You being available is not working. Because it won't.
> You doing more #3s is not working. Because it won't.
> 
> The only thing that will work for her, is her working on her. Because she is scared of herself and codependent. Searching for as much external validation as she can find in order to feel ok.
> 
> She is not ok. And it's nothing you can fix.
> 
> She doesn't want a relationship - not a mutually loving one. She wants to be saved. She wants others to fill her black hole. You have been losing yourself attempting to do just that.
> 
> Stop it!


This pattern has continued without interruption. LL, I cannot remember to be honest, but wasn't there a time when your girls were exposed to one of the OM?


----------



## lostLove77

Funny Tron. She really could never focus on planning unless it was at work. 

LW, your repostings sting a bit. I haven't been able to reread much of my thread. Still so fresh. I know it ca be a helpful tool tho.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tron

lostLove77 said:


> Well she moved a bit closer but it's still at least an hour and half and her mom doesn't drive, dad is scared of anything other than local driving...
> 
> But I get it, I have to shut her out. Hope and excited about the week with my girls. I'm sure ill have moments but Iove them so. Lots of swimming I'm sure.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It was all excuses and lies. She doesn't even hang out with them. 

She just wanted away from you so she could go be with the OM. 

Completely shut her out. 

I am going to repeat it until I get your commitment.  Text only, and only about the girls schedule. 

You are on your way. 

Go be the best dad you can. 

This next week is going to be great for you and your girls. Go make some beautiful memories.


----------



## Tron

lostLove77 said:


> LW, your repostings sting a bit. I haven't been able to reread much of my thread. Still so fresh. I know it ca be a helpful tool tho.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


They kind of feel like getting beaten with Conrad's lumber...except these all have rusty nails sticking out of them!


----------



## LongWalk

lostLove77 said:


> Funny Tron. She really could never focus on planning unless it was at work.
> 
> LW, your repostings sting a bit. I haven't been able to reread much of my thread. Still so fresh. I know it ca be a helpful tool tho.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


LL, clearly even if you were turned into a beta guy by this unhealthy relationship, you can breakout. You have to accept that anger is normal. When she begs and pleads for understanding, for your permission to cheat, that is not normal behavior.

Do you have contact with any of her MA classmates? Even if they buy the idea of self actualization by breaking out of a stifling marriage to a controlling spouse (and just how controlling were you?), would they think she was psychologically balanced, "dating" 5 men in 6 months time?

Where was her grad school?


----------



## LongWalk

Tron said:


> They kind of feel like getting beaten with Conrad's lumber...except these all have rusty nails sticking out of them!


To be quite honest, reading your old posts is painful. And there are so many of them. One consistency is that your wife constantly fed you morsels of hope to give herself:

1) the B plan
2) ego stroking
3) to prevent you from meeting other women
4) comfort from you
5) restriction of your spending


----------



## lostLove77

Latest text:
sorry u deserve a spouse who isn't so flawed. I am forever sorry I hurt u.

Whatever. Take some responsibility and do some work damnit!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GutPunch

Don't respond.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lostLove77

GP, I was kind of thinking of a Conrad twist. I'm not ok with that cop out. But that would be engaging her. 

Thanks
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chuck71

lostLove77 said:


> Latest text:
> sorry u deserve a spouse who isn't so flawed. I am forever sorry I hurt u.
> 
> Whatever. Take some responsibility and do some work damnit!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Glad you finally reached this point

we may have to start calling you 77

the LL moniker may be retiring soon


----------



## LongWalk

Would have been better to be silent. Still, this is one of first times she has expressed something remotely remorseful.



> sorry u deserve a spouse who isn't so flawed. I am forever sorry I hurt u.
> 
> Whatever. Take some responsibility and do some work damnit!


Is that your typing or hers? Because you only got a lower case _u_, twice in fact, while she gave herself a capital _I_



> sorry *YOU* deserve a spouse who isn't so flawed. i am forever sorry i hurt *YOU*.


 would have been better.

But the text she really needs to send are one of these:

1) "I am sorry I pulled all this shı† while we were married. We should have gotten divorced first. Lets work out a settlement that is fair as soon as possible so you can heal. Let me know if there is anything I can do. I am truly sorry. I've behaved terribly. I am going to straighten out my life so that I can be a good mother."

or

2) "Though I have not shown it, deep down I have always loved you and I am ashamed of what I have done. I am done with other men. I don't know if you can forgive me and take me back. But if you will consider it, I will give it my all. Bring you clothes and move in. The girls will be so happy. I will pamper you."

or

3) "I am so confused and messed up. I don't know what I want but I know that I have not been fair to you. I don't know if I can be a good wife again because I am a screwed up. I know I need help. I booked the MC for the day after tomorrow. Whatever we decide there I will follow through 100%. No more childish games. Thank you for being so patient with me: it's more than I deserve."

Any one of these responses, would promise action. Two of them are perhaps not the outcome you long for, but at least they are straight.

Any message in which you are just a small _u_ and she is a proper _I_ are, I am afraid, still bullshı†. Better but not passing yet.


----------



## moxy

LL, it's okay to be sad about what you're going through. It's not surprising that you'll resist detaching from her, especially when you love her despite her failures. You don't *have to* do anything, especially not simply to please those on a forum who are cheering for you (not for her or for you both but for you alone, whether it includes you both or not); though you should know that the people of TAM have *your* best interests at heart and usually want to help you. 

But, you're so hung up on holding on vs detaching that all your sights are set on the ruins of a marriage that she wrecked and none of them are on you, the ground beneath your own feet, or whether you're in danger amid all the rubble. You may be able to forgive her despite your pain, but..,does she want forgiveness? Does she want you to hold her accountable? What happens if you don't? Bad for you both, I think. 

Instead of focusing on her, on the loss you feel and the grief you can't escape, think about something else. You can't let go of her yet, so don't. Don't beat yourself up over it; either try to let go or just accept that you're not there yet. Just know that she is elsewhere and you are here. You're standing at the ruins of this house you built together. You can't tear your eyes away because it is horrible. But, she's walked away and she's trying to figure out what on earth possessed her to tear it all down. And, she can't figure out while she's with you, standing there, because you forgive her and you aren't going to force her to face her shame; you want to protect her, even from herself, maybe. Let her go figure herself out. She might come back to you a better wife when she has. You might be stronger, too, able to speak up when she's overstepping the lines, at that point. Maybe you won't want her when she returns. Nothing, though, is going to change if you stand there stuck to the spot and staring at the wreckage that was once your life. You have to walk away, too. She knows how to find you, even if you don't stay put; you have kids together, a history, and that doesn't fade. If she does return, what do you want to share with her? Stories about how the pile of wreckage was doing over the seasons -- or, tales of your own adventures along your path? You've got to pick a road and walk it. There's no standing still and there's no turning back. If you reconnect, it won't be at the site of this wreckage, but someplace else, someplace that isn't haunted by the pain of betrayal and confusion and loss. If you can't let go of her, not even by forcing yourself to, then don't; just go and focus on spending the time well until she returns; you're free to have your own experiences -- friends, lovers, books, nature, fun of all kinds. Something is broken; fixating on it isn't the same as fixing it. You need to nurture something in yourself other than your pain, if for nothing else, then for the contrast that will sweeten your pain when you must indulge it.

I don't know all of your thread. I don't mean to judge you. I'm telling you what I tell myself when I feel like I can't cope. It might be rubbish. But, I think I understand a little of what you're going through. I'm hung up on my own wishy washy faithless stbxh who I love and whose behavior I won't tolerate and who refuses to admit his actions; limbo fir years now (yep, its about to become plural for me; imo, she will keep you hanging on as long as you stay and while you're not 180, she will foxus on keeping you as a safety net and not figuring out her issues). So, all I'm trying to say us that I sympathize with your struggle and I think that you'll be able to bear whatever the future is better if you take the focus off of missing her and put it into yourself. You can't hope or wish her into coming back to the past, but you never know what lies ahead, either.

She should say to you that she knows what she wants or that she doesn't; you're probably both confused, though. Clarify things for yourself. What do you want in your life? Can she give it to you? Will she? If not, how can you take happiness for yourself? And, if you can't bear happiness without her, then at least choose some magnificent diversion in the meantime!


----------



## moxy

lostLove77 said:


> Latest text:
> sorry u deserve a spouse who isn't so flawed. I am forever sorry I hurt u.
> 
> Whatever. Take some responsibility and do some work damnit!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Your response -- right on. If you must engage her with a response, then challenge her.

"You're right, I deserve a spouse that isn't flawed. I chose you despite your flaws. You're not making me feel good about that decision. You're forever sorry you hurt me? Ok. Prove it. How sorry are you? If you want to talk this out, lets talk. Otherwise, go figure out why you screwed up so bad that I am not interesting in playing games about it with you. Words and actions carry different weight; the "I'm sorry I'm not perfect times infinity" statement doesn't inspire as much confidence as admitting your wrongs might do."

Not responding, not taking the bait...that will make her scramble to secure you as the back up plan some more and she will chase you. You don't like what she's saying? Don't reply; make her do the work and accept only the responses that are good enough for you. That's how you show what you expect and what you won't tolerate.

Best choice is not to reply. If you must, don't go easy on her; make her own her reality. Don't be punitive or cruel, but know what you're willing to accept and don't settle for less.


----------



## moxy

lostLove77 said:


> I know you are all frustrated with me but I want to walk into that lawyers office confident and welled up with anger. I'm not there yet. I actually feel abused and still in a weird survival mode that I can tell I'm breaking out of but revert back to for periods.


It's never easy to feel convinced that something icky is right. You want a happy marriage that isn't full of filth. Your W wants to roll around in slime. You don't want to leave her in the muck and that's what this feels like, but...you can't force her out either. You can hope that by walking away and turning your back you will have demonstrated that she is doing stupid and gross things and hope that she will quit it. But, you choosing to file isn't the same as you giving up on her, it's you saying "um, I don't want to play that game; if you want to play with me, we can get out of the slime and into that spot over there; I won't force you but that's where I'm going to be".

It's okay to be confused and frustrated. Recognizing that you need to be sure is a good thing. However, no matter what you do, you're not going to be able to guarantee an outcome. 

Shift your focus. Your life is not about her, but about you. Don't be her adoring audience of fans. Don't be her ego boost when she's down. Look down your nose at her shenanigans from a place that has no slime and plenty of...candy apples or yummy co(ktails or something better than slime.


----------



## lostLove77

Wow Moxy, amazing insight. I didn't respond to her, I was just venting about the text here. However I wish I would've responded with your message! 

But not responding is the first step in trying to shift focus. It's really been hard to do. I'll have to read these posts a few more times to really soak it in. 
Thanks.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LongWalk

There you go LL, Moxy to the rescue and she stayed up late at night to read as much of your threat as she could. She's got a big heart. And admit it LL, it feels good to have beautiful young woman give you the time of night even if she is far away and has to shoot rattlesnakes outside her office.

Moxy's thread is really long. She writes so beautifully but don't try and get through it in one go.


----------



## catcalls

lostLove77 said:


> Well honestly those weren't exact words. Her words were:
> "so if i can accept that u r sorry why can't you accent that i am deeply sorry too".
> 
> We were speaking to her relationship with OM1 so, i just connected the dots there.


If nothing else, this statement just shows how narcissistic she is.

I will trample all over you, treat you like sh*t, toy with your feelings, but god forbid you develop a bit of self preservation, then you are so nasty and so cruel

first of all, i dont believe that you were distant during your marriage, i suspect you were actually depressed and brow beaten by her wants and demands. 

her comparing the two is like someone saying that shoplifting is equal to being a serial killer

you should not bother responding to her stupid rationalisations. she wants your world to revolve around her no matter what. when you call her out on her behaviour her first response is to throw it back on you and demand an apology from you to minimise her betrayal.

get her served and get her out of that house. move back into town and reclaim your life

btw change your name to foundlove77, you have found your love for yourself and as long as you keep that close, you will not let anything treat you so poorly.

really pleased for you


----------



## LongWalk

> You need to nurture something in yourself other than your pain, if for nothing else, then for the contrast that will sweeten your pain when you must indulge it – Moxy


When a child wiggles the milk tooth on its way out, it hurts, but they wiggle it anyway. The pain feels good. When a woman has baby there is a lot of pain but even today they choose to do it even after having gone through once.

The end of failed love must create pain, but there must be an end to it.

Pain is not the end meaning of life.


----------



## LongWalk

catcalls said:


> If nothing else, this statement just shows how narcissistic she is.
> 
> I will trample all over you, treat you like sh*t, toy with your feelings, but god forbid you develop a bit of self preservation, then you are so nasty and so cruel
> 
> That's why she posts pictures of all the guys she sleeps with on Facebook to make each one of you feel inadequate.
> 
> first of all, i dont believe that you were distant during your marriage, i suspect you were actually depressed and brow beaten by her wants and demands.
> 
> She had you so you didn't know whether you were coming or going.
> 
> her comparing the two is like someone saying that shoplifting is equal to being a serial killer
> 
> you should not bother responding to her stupid rationalisations. she wants your world to revolve around her no matter what. when you call her out on her behaviour her first response is to throw it back on you and demand an apology from you to minimise her betrayal.
> 
> get her served and get her out of that house. move back into town and reclaim your life I can't remember but maybe her parents helped her buy the house. However, it should be considered common property from your marriage. You should include it as an asset in your property settlement division.
> 
> You need to save or get as much money out of divorce that you can so that you can afford a nice place for your daughters to live in.
> 
> Don't be surprised if you wife starts accusing you of being greedy and selfish. Pray that she doesn't try to cut off access to your daughters.
> 
> btw change your name to foundlove77, you have found your love for yourself and as long as you keep that close, you will not let anything treat you so poorly.
> 
> really pleased for you


:iagree:


----------



## LongWalk

What I posted on Moxy's thread


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## Chuck71

'77 Good bet once she sees your shifted focus

she will think you have a gal on the side

in a room full of suspects, the guilty party usually screams loudest


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## LongWalk

Chuck71 said:


> '77 Good bet once she sees your shifted focus
> 
> she will think you have a gal on the side
> 
> in a room full of suspects, the guilty party usually screams loudest


Chuck, re: a gal on the side
LL's posts are sometime unforgettable. I believe, if I am not mixing him up with someone else, that one point his wife said that when he had a girlfriend, she would be that girlfriend's friend and tell her all about him or something like that.

I mean I could not have invented that, I think it is buried somewhere a couple of months back. In short, as soon as LL has girlfriend, his ex is going do everything she can to f' it up. She wants to keep him on ice for ever.

Every time she notices him getting stronger she gives him a kiss or implies their marriage has hope. It took over a half a year and at least 4 or 5 guys before she told him she wasn't in love with him anymore.


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## Chuck71

LW, I mentioned to '77 early on, men give attention to get sex

women give sex to get attention

That sounds exactly like my 1st love (see my thread in LaD)

I begged and all to no avail

I went on with my life and she came after me 150 mph the moment

she found out I was dating a couple girls at the university


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## LongWalk

LL,

I don't know if you have read Chuck's thread(s) but here is little snapshot of his second marriage crashing and burning. He may well see something of his wife and the collapse of his marriage in yours. 

Their ages are different. She had had a PA some years ago, but the skeleton sat in the closet. She was menopausal and had no good single life to look forward to. Her financial situation was terrible. Very different from your wife, except for one similarity, she was unwilling to say that what she had was not all bad and could have been salvaged.

She used the dogs to keep Chuck out of the marital bed. Your wife has a bunch of guys to keep you away. But the walk away part is the same. The lack of will to work on what is real.

How is she doing today, Chuck?



> I am writing this at my mother's house on Christmas Eve. As my annual tradition, I watch It's a Wonderful Life at 8:00. I get something new out of it every year and it takes back to a time when happiness was abound. I have posted on TAM for almost two months and have a few threads and spotty updates on others. My current post was updated yesterday. I had a feeling this would come to be.
> As I was gathering things to travel across town to my mother's house, W asked me if I was going to stay all night. I answered I plan to (earlier post explains). She asked me to stay until she got out of the shower and I agreed. Then the sobs started. They increased to the point she fell on the bed that I have been sleeping in and cried like I had never seen her since her mother passed away. She begged me just to hold her. She said she missed her mother being the holidays.
> Part of me thought, you started everything, now live with the consequences. But she was very close to her mother and I was as well. She was like my second mother. I miss her too. It's been five years. She did not appear to be wanted left alone but from my past posts, she would stay gone sporadically up until the morning I decided I was sick and tired of being sick and tired. Ironic they occurred at the same time +/- one day. We are not communicating but my cards are all on the table and the last time I asked her to open up to me, she said just give me time.
> I would have loved to have stayed home and invited mom out but for the last nearly two months, she has not shown any regard for my feelings. I focus on me now. You chose to want out and I respected that. I did not want it but you can't force anyone to stay. I know she misses her mother around the holidays but the tears she shed were for more than just her mother. I told her how wonderful her mother was but left it there. I always was there when she was depressed about her mother or anything.
> But our D is about a month away and being there for her is not in my agenda any longer. I enjoyed being with mom Christmas Eve and Christmas Day/Night. There were no dogs, no dog hairs on the bed sheets, no muck on my feet from walking barefoot on the floor. *She has a sickness with those dogs. It is not healthy. All of her new girlfriends happen to be divorced with kids from multiple partners. Where have I heard that before? She will be dropped when they find another person to manipulate. Just like her son was done two years prior. When his user friends did not need him, he was dropped like a plague.*
> I can't post this now, mom has not net. But I will Wednesday.


----------



## Conrad

lostLove77 said:


> Wow Moxy, amazing insight. I didn't respond to her, I was just venting about the text here. However I wish I would've responded with your message!
> 
> But not responding is the first step in trying to shift focus. It's really been hard to do. I'll have to read these posts a few more times to really soak it in.
> Thanks.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Have you had enough yet?


----------



## Tron

Conrad said:


> Have you had enough yet?


Crossing our fingers C.

Welcome back.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## moxy

Can I make a suggestion, LL? Try doing three things each day that are solely for yourself and have nothing at all to do with the woman who is stringing you along. Write them down, too, so you can see that you did them. When you've managed to go at least two weeks without skipping a day, you will feel more like yourself and less enslaved by your addiction to her. It's been true for me and I suspect it will be true for you. 

If you haven't filed yet, you should do so. Nothing changed my stbxh's behavior until I filed; that brought an about face (albeit, not enough of one for me to consider reconciling). She's not treating you well. She's stringing you along. And, you're not rejecting her, just rejecting her behavior. It will feel horrible for about a day after you file, but it will open up some new emotions and help move you out of being stuck in this space. Seriously, filing and going dark is a good thing; consider it.


----------



## LongWalk

LL, Moxy filed but has not gotten him to sign. Two years or more have passed since Dday, a long time for Foxy to put heart into limbo. If you file now maybe you can beat her to the finish line
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chuck71

LongWalk said:


> LL,
> 
> I don't know if you have read Chuck's thread(s) but here is little snapshot of his second marriage crashing and burning. He may well see something of his wife and the collapse of his marriage in yours.
> 
> Their ages are different. She had had a PA some years ago, but the skeleton sat in the closet. She was menopausal and had no good single life to look forward to. Her financial situation was terrible. Very different from your wife, except for one similarity, she was unwilling to say that what she had was not all bad and could have been salvaged.
> 
> She used the dogs to keep Chuck out of the marital bed. Your wife has a bunch of guys to keep you away. But the walk away part is the same. The lack of will to work on what is real.
> 
> How is she doing today, Chuck?






She was my first (and maybe last) marriage

she had an EA not a PA

had it been a PA, 110% game over

she had more issues than Sports Illustrated

never accepted her mom's death, never was close to her dad

had trust issues with her brothers (granted I could definitely see why)

attachment issues to the dogs

very pathetic parenting skills

serious health issues

supposedly found soul mate 500 miles away month ago

and this was a month after she offered me a weekend stay and home cooked meal

at her apartment.....new gal's lasagnia sure beats her spaghetti

I did all of the bills and it clearly showed

she filed Chapter 13 week after D final

recently she received five NSF charges from the bank, three were under $10

and one was, you guessed it, $1! But Chuck, how you know all this?

The idiot never forwarded her mail.........or her son's

I assume her soul mate never was good in math or economics

But one thing that was funny......she left behind so much stuff

like she planned on coming back one day

it's at the dump now........


----------



## lostLove77

Sorry, haven't been able to give everyones' response full attention. Picked up the girls yesterday afternoon and finally got to the house five hours later. Big music fest clogged traffic and now have to scramble to get groceries in the house. 

On the update front, she started divorce procedures again. She got scared when I confronted her about speaking to OM1 again. Anyway, spoke to her briefly about it and she just wants to start to get an agreement with the kids and finances in order and spoke to being able to stop it at any time. However she wants to spend time together this summer as a way of trying to connect and "figure things out". 

Too busy to really process this, I will say I honestly desire time with her but know I have to proceed for myself as well. Sort of excited to get to the lawyer on the 2nd. So many mixed emotions.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lostLove77

She got scared because after I wasn't answering her she over reacted and thought I was going after full custody of the girls. 

Ever since we split she's been really scared any time an argument happens and over reacts to everything.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chuck71

Spend the summer together? Dude you are Plan B, maybe C

she MUST get OMs out of the picture for anything to happen

When you stop being her doormat

she will stop treating you like one

180 and NC and di it firmly

I may be ahead of the game but I strongly

feel she will notice it quick

btw beware of her claws


----------



## Conrad

lostLove77 said:


> She got scared because after I wasn't answering her she over reacted and thought I was going after full custody of the girls.
> 
> Ever since we split she's been really scared any time an argument happens and over reacts to everything.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's because her conscience (what's left of it) is so guilty.


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## LongWalk

LL, read Moxy again. She has the same problem as you. She is addicted to the fantasy of the person who invalidated himself on multiple occassions. She is very smart and pretty (another TAMer saw a IRL photo of her and she is cute). She knows that she needs to move on, but is paralyzed, still hoping he will change. Rationally, she is clear headed. Only recently in a dignified manner she noted that she hadn't been intimate with a man for whatever, two years. This, she is aware, is not healthy.

LL, You are determined to put your sex life on hold for your fickle WAW, to stroke her ego. Can you warn Moxy that she is wasting her life?

Re: custody
She no longer believes she is a fit parent. Don't be surprized if she gets fired or encounters troubles. Her life is unstable. Moxy used the word "slime". That is serious indictment when a gentle university academic draws such a conclusion. Your wife has probably become duplicitous about other things besides her martial vows. How much money has she borrowed from her parents and others?

Her debts will be yours. You need access to her financial situation.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## catcalls

lostLove77 said:


> Sorry, haven't been able to give everyones' response full attention. Picked up the girls yesterday afternoon and finally got to the house five hours later. Big music fest clogged traffic and now have to scramble to get groceries in the house.
> 
> On the update front, she started divorce procedures again. She got scared when I confronted her about speaking to OM1 again. Anyway, spoke to her briefly about it and she just wants to start to get an agreement with the kids and finances in order and spoke to being able to stop it at any time. However she wants to spend time together this summer as a way of trying to connect and "figure things out".
> 
> Too busy to really process this, I will say I honestly desire time with her but know I have to proceed for myself as well. Sort of excited to get to the lawyer on the 2nd. So many mixed emotions.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


she is throwing you crumbs again in the hope that you will back down. you have discovered your anger, your self respect and love for yourself. dont back down. if she wants to work on your marriage she can do it right now. if she has to think so much, it is not worth it. 

anyway, who is she to decide. you decide whether you can put up with an adulterous wife. unless she shows remorse and shows comprehension of what she has done, is it really a reconciliation. do you really want to be someone she decides to settle for because all her other adventures have not borne fruit

she is not a prize, she is a poor excuse for a wife and mother. you deserve a woman who is loyal and loves being with you. dont let her tell you any different.

do the 180. file for divorce and follow through. dont back down because she says she will reconsider. if she comes back without preconditions, apologises for her wretched behaviour and makes it up to you, then you can reconsider and decide to stop the divorce. dont pull back because she is promising to think about changing.

even if you divorce, you can still reconcile. by divorcing her you are showing her that you will not be a doormat anymore and will not be her fallback plan.

dont fall for her 'panic attacks'. they are all designed to elicit your sympathy and make you feel that she is the victim. she is not a victim here. she is an entitled princess and every time you move to tell her all is fine when she panics, she knows that she has you on leash. stop communicating just because she is worried. keep all your communication short and about divorce, children and financial matters. again keep it short and to the point. if you stop responding, she will learn and realise that this tactic is no longer working.


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## lostLove77

Really want to reply to everyone but I'm chasing these girls around the beach. 

I honestly wish I could meet a few women to speak to but every weekend I have the girls and doing a lot of travel in between back and forth from DE and PA. Feels like constant work since during any down time I get I'm doing stuff to sell the house. Tried some online dating and must simply be terrible at it. I also think women have a strong aversion to men that are separated. Which I can understand. 

I've started reading a bit of Moxys thread a bit and these are some similarities. She's also done a much better job cutting him off than I'm even getting close to. We're only able to read very small portions of the whole story so our judgment of the other side in these stories is so limited. However, I cannot stand Moxys husband so far and I'm only 4 pages or so in. She deserves so much better. Someone that values her enough to tell her the truth. Her writing is beautiful and it breaks my heart that she's been mistreated so badly. 

I feel that my WW has mostly been honest with me during this separation. She feels that she wants a private life to go on her own journey and she's never said anything about wanting me to wait for her. She has told me that she has very strong feelings for me but cannot commit to anyone. That she's broken. I'm not entirely sure what that means. She needs help and knows it. However she has t taken any steps towards that yet. 

So, honestly I'm keeping my options open. She wants to take a week together with the girls at the beach... I want to see where that goes for a multitude of reasons but we'll be proceeding with the divorce at the same time. If I run Into a fabulous single mom, I'm asking her out as quickly as I can. 

Moxy, you're amazing. Open yourself up to someone that will see it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

CC, what would you bet her financial situation is? I guess that LL managed their finances and POSOM1 has borrowed money from her or at least caused her to burn money
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

LL,
I am by the water. Dove in to shake off depression. My kids are far away but they'll be back in week. Had lunch with a couple of buddies. One, in his 50s, like me, is suddenly a single dad with two teenage sons. His blood pressure has shot through the roof. He talks a bit about his failed common law marriage. His ex wife's name is still on the door. She left it for him to remove. What did he do wrong? We don't know. Spent too much time working and watching TV. She got religion. Everyone has their own story.

I coaxed Moxy here because you can help each other. You are both facing the same leap from a collapsing foot bridge into unknown waters. If you wait too long instead of water you'll strike rocks.

Your wife has not been honest. Her I-hereby-set-you-free statements have always been calculated to undermine your self confidence. She is trying to destroy you as a man — nothing honest about it. This week at the beach, is it with you? I suggest that you consider the wisdom of such an engagement. Would you recommend that Moxy reconcile with her husband for a weekend of sex and pleasantries without an understanding of the boundaries of marriage?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Frostflower

LongWalk said:


> LL,
> I am by the water. Dove in to shake off depression. My kids are far away but they'll be back in week. Had lunch with a couple of buddies. One, in his 50s, like me, is suddenly a single dad with two teenage sons. His blood pressure has shot through the roof. He talks a bit about his failed common law marriage. His ex wife's name is still on the door. She left it for him to remove. What did he do wrong? We don't know. Spent too much time working and watching TV. She got religion. Everyone has their own story.
> 
> I coaxed Moxy here because you can help each other. You are both facing the same leap from a collapsing foot bridge into unknown waters. If you wait too long instead of water you'll strike rocks.
> 
> Your wife has not been honest. Her I-hereby-set-you-free statements have always been calculated to undermine your self confidence. She is trying to destroy you as a man — nothing honest about it. This week at the beach, is it with you? I suggest that you consider the wisdom of such an engagement. Would you recommend that Moxy reconcile with her husband for a weekend of sex and pleasantries without an understanding of the boundaries of marriage?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The week together, if you do it, should only happen if and when she cuts all ties with other men.


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## Conrad

Frostflower said:


> The week together, if you do it, should only happen if and when she cuts all ties with other men.


She's already promised him that.

She lies like a rug.

Yet, he says she's been honest.


----------



## Conrad

lostLove77 said:


> I feel that my WW has mostly been honest with me during this separation.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Post of the year


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## LongWalk

LL,

Let us hope that the fair Moxy will advise.

If you must humor your wife by playing happy family on the beach, please ask her to do the following:

1) Give you a list of all EA and PA partners
This should include cell phone and email info.

2) Copy an NC letter

Dear Bryan,

I have decided to reconcile with my husband. My relationship with you is now completely terminated.

Do not further contact me in any fashion. I will inform my husband immediately in the event that you do so.

Sincerely yours,

Your wife's name

3) All of the guys she has dated should be on the list, regardless of whether she claims no EA/PA occurred. It is possible that she only had one night stands or kisses a some of them, but debating this is meaningless. If she says that contacting someone she broke it off with quickly is embarrassing, tell her that this is way to prevent deeper embarrassment and difficulties. There is no point in debating this. It is non-negotiable.

4) Computer and cell access
She said that she cannot handle sexting. That was honest of her. Now you must go through her email and dating site profiles together. They must be copied by you. The dating site memberships, if they exist, must be cancelled. The fees she paid for them must be subtracted from any future divorce settlement if your marriage ends up in divorce.

5) STDs
I think a lot TAMers get carried away when demanding STD testing. Especially HIV. However, your wife has had multiple partners and one is a drug user. HPV and herpes are no fun. You must use a condom if you have sex with her.

Let us hope your wife hasn't been getting stoned with him. But given the great void she has been unable to fill, would it come as a surprize that she got wasted to kill the pain?

6) re: being broken
Again a lie by omission – broken and what? Is she going to try and pull herself together? Does she expect you to fix her? Or are her problems her own private business? If so, ask Chuck how much a spouse can do, if the spouse demanding freedom does not even have the humility to ask for help in a straightforward way.

If says she wants a holiday to forget her affairs for a while, you cannot open your arteries to pump the final reserve of strength in to give a blood doping buzz for her search for true love. *It will give your daughters false hope*, don't do it.

If you don't go to the beach to avoid a painful failed R, you can a) take some other holiday for yourself b) stay in your house that she has set up for self actualization. There you can go through the phone records. Maybe get her computer hard drive copied. c) you can snoop through her stuff.

If she doesn't trust you to stay in your house in town, why should you trust her to stay at your beach property?

p.s. You should buy a couple of good VAR and plant them in the right places if you are interested in R. If you are certain that D is the only course now, then don't bother with investigation, you already know enough.


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## LongWalk

> Moxy, you're amazing. Open yourself up to someone that will see it – LostLove


Yes, she is. Funny how she has opened up to you. She must feel that you are guy worthy of respect.

Throw her a gold apple, so she will stop running away from the possibility of love.

I never say a TAM CWI poll on an individual thread. Can you can have a poll, such as, _Who will successfully divorce first, Moxy or LostLove?_


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## lostLove77

Moxy - I like the idea of three things for myself daily but actually have a hard time seeing the time for it. These girls take so much time. But maybe I can keep it simple. I'm still going through these depressive feelings so waking up early to take a run or something like that has been hard. Alright, no more excuses. Have to work harder on me. 

Frost, chuck and Cat I appreciate your concern. 

Walk, you are right when you say I cannot let go. There are times I've tried but it doesn't seem to hold. Every time I'm with my daughters I think of our time together as a family and our experiences that led up to us having kids. We were basically kids when we met. 

I've placed to much validation of myself on my relationship with her. I felt attractive through her intimacy, felt like a good parent through her interactions with the girls and a creative person by her praise of my work and photography. 

Now I feel my work is in jeopardy. I do multimedia design and my drive and creativity are sapped. I have to find the strength within myself but I'm tired of feeling isolated from friends and family. Constant struggle.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LongWalk

Skater Dad is a photographer and is struggling with an unfaithful WAW, with same sort of neediness. I am also dependent on creativity for my work. If I were happier and had my sh!t together, I'd be doing more, too. I am sure that TAM is helping me, if nothing else I understand things better. Ignorance is not bliss. At the very least I can be better father.

Your situation is difficult. But to everyone following your thread, it clear that you must 180 hard and push for divorce if you are to have any chance of reconciling with your wife. However you might reunite would require that you take the leading role in your relationship. Your wife is completely unable to deal with the freedom she has seized. She will harm your daughters irreparably if she continues like this. That is why speaks of custody.

It is possible that fighting you for custody will supplant finding new mates as her focus. Claiming that you are an unfit father would be another way to rewrite the history of your marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lostLove77

LW - I could never see either of us claiming that. Our children. Have been so important to us. She has even said that she used to feel jealous of the girls, they got so much of my energy and attention. 

I am really surprised to hear of your depression. What has been going on? You seem so calm and confident. 

Had an amazing day with the girls. I pined for my wife at times but it was not nearly as debilitating as its been. She really is missing such a special time, and I know I will be too when she has them. What a tragedy. My youngest just clings to me all day when I have them. She constantly wants held or to sit on me. She never seems sad, in fact most of the times she's the happiest little thing I've ever seen. I guess she just longs for the closeness that's been ripped away. 

Hope you're feeling well Walk.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LongWalk

I am glad that you feel confident that she will not involve the children in some further escalation of conflict. From what you write it sounds as if when your week is over, she will come and live in the house and you will go somewhere else. If so, it could/should be the house that she lives in.

Perhaps she considers it her house, but it is communal property. It will give you an opportunity to find out more. If you order a paper copy of her phone records in advance, they should arrive while you are there, giving you an opportunity to find out about her texting. Could be very painful, but if it has even alarmed her, then it is something you need to know more about if you want to consider R.

You may also be anxious to concentrate on work and it may be difficult in that house, or anywhere for that matter, as long as you thinking about them by the shore. I can feel how painful it must be. Doing 180 obviously becomes more challenging when you want to telephone them to say goodnight and that exposes you to your WW afresh each time.

Do you hope each time that she will linger on the phone a bit more with you and give some signs of affection before she passes the phone on to them? Or do you Skype them? This situation explains why you have been strung out for so long.

Your WW broke your first 180 rather easily. That merely encouraged her to continue her interactions with other men, secure in the knowledge that she still had you in reserve. However, the you in reserve is not a bottle of wine that she can wipe the dust off of open and drink in the candlelight at the right moment. You are a human being. 

When she encourages you to find other women that is partly honest. She doesn't want to feel guilty about your unhappiness. But she may also want to see your status as a man rise. If you have another woman, one whom she feels is prettier than her, she will want you again. Sounds crazy, but maybe she would like the idea of batting her eyes at you and drawing you away from some competitor. She likes these sort of romantic fiction games.

But you cannot embrace some sort of potential leading role in a drama whose likely end is not happy. So, there is some argument for a renewed 180 and a push for divorce, simply as a matter of self preservation. If your work suffers, you'll feel even worse.

BTW, Gut Punch seems to have alluded to you on his thread. Don't know if you follow his story, but he got his WW back. She is beautiful and is putting in 100% to be a good wife again, but he is still being eaten up inside.



> Originally Posted by GutPunch View Post
> Chuck,
> 
> You are spot on as to how I'm feeling. My self esteem and pride have always been healthy. She has disturbed this with her actions.
> 
> My sub-conscious keeps saying.....she cheated...walk away.
> 
> *What is sad here is that I see all the other WAW's on these threads and their husbands pining for a second chance that never comes. *Here I'm getting it and a beating myself up for taking it.


Here he writes about it from a different angle:



> Originally Posted by GutPunch View Post
> Don't admire me. I'm a wounded bird like the rest of us. I'm
> just a little further along in the process.
> 
> Listen to the advice you get. Filter thru it. Believe it.
> Show your wife who the man is. She'll get mad of course.
> Don't engage her when she does. This will make her more mad.
> Next thing you know the anger turns into respect and next
> thing you know there is a knock on your door.
> 
> However, be careful what ye wish for.


re: me
People don't hang out on TAM because everything is going really well in their lives. As Fiona Apple once said about her creative process –*and she writes good tunes about failed relationships – why would she want to sit at the piano if she was happy and having fun?

My father was not an evil person but he emotionally abused me when I was a small boy. He used to fly into terrible rages with me as the target. He scheduled the shock and awe sessions for every weekend. There was a journal full of confessions and grades for the whole family. We always voted on everything. Is LongWalk poorly behaved and in need of discipline, all in favor raise your right hand, my three younger brothers and my mother all raised their hands, my youngest brother used to hesitate before joining the condemnation. My father never lost any votes.

He was not physically violent – although he used to smash inanimate objects – he said terrible things, he who was a psychiatrist and family therapist.

Once when I was about 13 or 14 he accused me of having oedipal complex. I knew what that was, Freud was very popular then, the son murdered the father and married his mother. When he said that I just stood there stunned, it was a physical shock, like my mouth and lungs were filled with hot sawdust. What was I supposed to say, "Oh, no Dad, that's just some Greek story, forget it, haha."

I had to be calm to survive such childhood, but the scars of that betrayal are part of the reason that I am suspicious of happiness, and I suppose trust. This is, I know, all psycho babble but how come it has taken me decades to admit these things.

It's useless to hate him or be angry. Now he is 83 and cannot remember much – Alzheimer's. Last summer I drove him for an hour and back to my brother's. He would just sit there and say nothing. Took work to engage him. Once, though, I got him to talk about his medical training when he became one of the first neurologists in the state to operate an EEG machine.

He could remember the name of the professor and the other guy in training. He had been happy then; his life was full of hope and he thought the demons of his unhappy childhood could be outrun. But they couldn't, he passed me the ball. I don't want to carry it to be honest.

Shı†, I even changed his diapers, gave him baths. Who wants soap the body of their shrunken old man? All I could do was shampoo his head and bit of his upper body. So hard for him to stand him. Had to pull him up from the tub. Be lucky if he remembers me the next time we meet. Could be that we'll never meet again.

Being on TAM helps me to face this shı†. I have to understand it to put it behind me. I didn't have a dad that played baseball or knew how to have fun.

When I sit and read a thread like yours, it gives courage and insight. If I can see the obvious in your situation and explain it to you, I can turn around and do it to myself. I cannot put it off. Look at Moxy, so bright and beautiful and more than two years have been wasted, for what? Can you imagine who lucky it would be to have her as a wife, a lifetime of great conversation. Hard to believe she isn't passionate in bed.

... the waste, the waste

The kiss thing suggests that your wife is more predictable than you think. You really learned something from those feelingless lips. The bad news is I'll bet she doesn't kiss POSOM1 with much passion either, except when he frightens and intimidates her – a little fraudulent alpha behavior on his part. He may be the biggest POS of all 4 or 5 of them. The others had a run with her and moved on. She stuck with the loser.

You need to cut off all emotional banter and push hard for divorce to have any chance of stopping the destructive slide downwards. You face wasting an additional year or two of your life if you don't stop participating in her self destruction.

If you withdraw from the game, she may start to face her problems. Do not rush into comfort her if she does not do the stuff outlined in early posts. The other posters here will advise. Trust them. If Conrad, Gut Punch or whoever says something, give it serious thought. Think of Moxy.


----------



## LongWalk

lostLove77 said:


> LW - I could never see either of us claiming that. Our children. Have been so important to us. She has even said that she used to feel jealous of the girls, they got so much of my energy and attention.
> 
> I am really surprised to hear of your depression. What has been going on? You seem so calm and confident.
> 
> Had an amazing day with the girls. I pined for my wife at times but it was not nearly as debilitating as its been.* She really is missing such a special time, and I know I will be too when she has them. *What a tragedy. My youngest just clings to me all day when I have them. She constantly wants held or to sit on me. She never seems sad, in fact most of the times she's the happiest little thing I've ever seen. I guess she just longs for the closeness that's been ripped away.
> 
> Hope you're feeling well Walk.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Good to write these feelings down. Remember other facts of the tragedy as well. When she was lying in bed with POSOMXYZ she did not wish you were sharing that special moment of intimacy. But you didn't miss much because none of the moments lasted, except POSOMTHC. He will always need someone to share the haze.

Hope that week by the ocean will start to cleanse her. The steel wool and Ajax part will be a lot harder than just rinsing off in seawater.


----------



## Chuck71

LL you claim wife loves her children

how you are treated, affect your children

how she acts towards other men affect your children

little girls learn a lot from their mother

hopping guy to guy, yeah they notice this

at a very young age

the message they are getting is guys are like McDs

one on every corner, enjoy and toss in the trash


----------



## LongWalk

Agree with you Chuck,

Girls are much smarter than boys when it comes to figuring out social calculus. LL's daughters will see mom temporarily excited about the new guy into whom she puts a lot of slu†ty pathos. When it burns out she'll look for a new one while daddy tries to hold everything together and is humiliated for his efforts.

Chuck, do you think if LL puts a hard 180 on WAW his daughters will notice and come to appreciate him more in the long run?

And what about Cheaterville for OM1? Would you advise it? It seems so vulgar. I recoiled from the idea at first but every TAM spouse who does it seems to gain satisfaction. Even if LL's wife were not named, the other POSOM would say "whoa this dude could do it to me, too, unh-uh, no thank you to more dates with her."


----------



## Frostflower

LongWalk said:


> Agree with you Chuck,
> 
> Girls are much smarter than boys when it comes to figuring out social calculus. LL's daughters will see mom temporarily excited about the new guy into whom she puts a lot of slu†ty pathos. When it burns out she'll look for a new one while daddy tries to hold everything together and is humiliated for his efforts.
> 
> Chuck, do you think if LL puts a hard 180 on WAW his daughters will notice and come to appreciate him more in the long run?
> 
> And what about Cheaterville for OM1? Would you advise it? It seems so vulgar. I recoiled from the idea at first but every TAM spouse who does it seems to gain satisfaction. Even if LL's wife were not named, the other POSOM would say "whoa this dude could do it to me, too, unh-uh, no thank you to more dates with her."


What is Cheaterville, LW?


----------



## Tron

Frostflower said:


> What is Cheaterville, LW?


CheaterVille :: Don't Be the Last to Know


----------



## LongWalk

A website that hosts notices about adulterous spouses
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tron

LongWalk said:


> A website that hosts notices about adulterous spouses
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 And especially POSOM and POSOW...


----------



## Conrad

I would include all posOM's on cheaterville today.

Of course, I would also include LL's spouse.


----------



## Frostflower

What a slimy site.

How do the laws of libel apply here?


----------



## Conrad

Frostflower said:


> What a slimy site.
> 
> How do the laws of libel apply here?


It's not libel if it's true.


----------



## Frostflower

Conrad said:


> It's not libel if it's true.


True. But what does one gain by putting someone’s name there, other than perhaps some catharsis? Surely people who start dating someone don’t go and look to see if the person’s name is there.

Also, the cheater could have made one mistake, R with their spouse and never stray again. Yet their name is forever out in cyberspace as a scumbag.

Posting there seems like something you would do in anger. Surely there are better things to do with that energy than stoop to the level of vindictiveness.


----------



## LongWalk

Conrad said:


> I would include all posOM's on cheaterville today.
> 
> Of course, I would also include LL's spouse.


I doubt LL would contemplate that... that would be like putting himself there. I don't know if he has proof of any except POSOM 1 and 3.


----------



## Conrad

Frostflower said:


> True. But what does one gain by putting someone’s name there, other than perhaps some catharsis? Surely people who start dating someone don’t go and look to see if the person’s name is there.


Anybody who has been cheated on will.


----------



## LongWalk

Frostflower said:


> True. But what does one gain by putting someone’s name there, other than perhaps some catharsis? Surely people who start dating someone don’t go and look to see if the person’s name is there.
> 
> Also, the cheater could have made one mistake, R with their spouse and never stray again. Yet their name is forever out in cyberspace as a scumbag.
> 
> Posting there seems like something you would do in anger. Surely there are better things to do with that energy than stoop to the level of vindictiveness.


Frostflower,

In some cases, it is not desirable to go to Cheaterville. The BS must calculate potential negative effects. If R is possible, the BS may not want their family to know because in-laws may not forgive. However, in the case of LL's wife, everyone in her family knows. Her own mother is disgusted and dismayed by her behavior.

POSOM1 alone would be sufficient to improve the situation. If he has no criminal record for marijuana, then LL could not claim it without risk of libel. POSOM1 might have a criminal record. LL should check. That POSOM1 is a carpenter and musician is sufficient description, along with a photo and name. 

Of course this guy has treated LL's wife brutally at times and deserves to be exposed. By posting him LL would be making a real effort to stop the affair which is hurting his daughters.

To learn more about Cheaterville, check Disenchanted's thread. The OM actually called and left a message of apology on the BS's answering machine.


----------



## Frostflower

LongWalk said:


> Frostflower,
> 
> In some cases, it is not desirable to go to Cheaterville. *The BS must calculate potential negative effects. *If R is possible, the BS may not want their family to know because in-laws may not forgive. However, in the case of LL's wife, everyone in her family knows. Her own mother is disgusted and dismayed by her behavior.
> 
> POSOM1 alone would be sufficient to improve the situation. If he has no criminal record for marijuana, then LL could not claim it without risk of libel. POSOM1 might have a criminal record. LL should check. That POSOM1 is a carpenter and musician is sufficient description, along with a photo and name.
> 
> Of course this guy has treated LL's wife brutally at times and deserves to be exposed. By posting him LL would be making a real effort to stop the affair which is hurting his daughters.
> 
> To learn more about Cheaterville, check Disenchanted's thread. The OM actually called and left a message of apology on the BS's answering machine.


I wonder how many BS’s weigh the negative effects.

Its interesting. Why post on a web site that few people know about rather than put an ad in the paper or fliers on telephone poles in the area where the cheater lives and more people would see them? Why? Because posting on that site is easy and is done anonymously. 

Maybe that’s why I find it slimy.


----------



## LongWalk

Frostflower said:


> I wonder how many BS’s weigh the negative effects.
> 
> Its interesting. Why post on a web site that few people know about rather than put an ad in the paper or fliers on telephone poles in the area where the cheater lives and more people would see them? Why? Because posting on that site is easy and is done anonymously.
> 
> Maybe that’s why I find it slimy.


When I first heard about Cheaterville I thought is sounded low class and, as you put it "slimy". So, I was very curious when TAM posters went that route. Turns out that social media immediately spread the posts to friends, acquaintances, relatives, colleagues, etc. In short, it reaches the target audience extremely effectively. Far more effectively than putting papers on telephone poles.

Cheating evokes a visceral reaction in society so that the privacy of the adulterous affair vanishes. The joy of sneaking around is gone. Many affairs, though not all, collapse. In the case of sports coaches who sleep with the parents of children they coach, Cheaterville is a real warning to the rest of the parents.

LL is not the type person who wants "slime" in his life. However, one woman poster, Moxy a university lecturer in English, read LL's thread and used "slime" to describe her situation (multiple partners).

In combination with filing for D, Cheaterville would probably give LL a better chance of R than he otherwise would have because his wife has lost all respect for him.

I don't know what the prospects are for R in cases of WAW but I suspect they are poor.

What did you make of LL's situation?


----------



## Frostflower

LongWalk said:


> When I first heard about Cheaterville I thought is sounded low class and, as you put it "slimy". So, I was very curious when TAM posters went that route. Turns out that social media immediately spread the posts to friends, acquaintances, relatives, colleagues, etc. In short, it reaches the target audience extremely effectively. Far more effectively than putting papers on telephone poles.
> 
> Cheating evokes a visceral reaction in society so that the privacy of the adulterous affair vanishes. The joy of sneaking around is gone. Many affairs, though not all, collapse. In the case of sports coaches who sleep with the parents of children they coach, Cheaterville is a real warning to the rest of the parents.
> 
> LL is not the type person who wants "slime" in his life. However, one woman poster, Moxy a university lecturer in English, read LL's thread and used "slime" to describe her situation (multiple partners).
> 
> In combination with filing for D, Cheaterville would probably give LL a better chance of R than he otherwise would have because his wife has lost all respect for him.
> 
> I don't know what the prospects are for R in cases of WAW but I suspect they are poor.
> 
> What did you make of LL's situation?


I see what you are saying about Cheaterville. I was not suggesting that people go the route of newspaper ads of fliers because the negative effects would be the same as posting on a web site. Worse case scenario, the cheater’s children see the ad, the fliers or the post. The fact that the posts are quickly spread around cyberspace and delivered to relatives and friends, either through Facebook or through others talking worries me for the same reason. You don’t know who will get a hold of it or what they will do with it. Telling family and friends in person, who hopefully exercise discretion, gives better assurance that children won’t find out dirt about their parent from someone with less discretion until they are ready to handle it.

As for what I think LL’s chances of R are, I can only speak from my own experience. My H and I have successfully reconciled after his affair and are building a stronger marriage. He completely severed ties with OW and is committed to our marriage. If LL’s W does the same thing and both work hard to improve their marriage, then, yes, I think it has a good chance. Without that total commitment, no, I don’t think the marriage stands a snowball’s chance in Heck.


----------



## LongWalk

Frostflower said:


> I see what you are saying about Cheaterville. I was not suggesting that people go the route of newspaper ads of fliers because the negative effects would be the same as posting on a web site. Worse case scenario, the cheater’s children see the ad, the fliers or the post. The fact that the posts are quickly spread around cyberspace and delivered to relatives and friends, either through Facebook or through others talking worries me for the same reason. You don’t know who will get a hold of it or what they will do with it. Telling family and friends in person, who hopefully exercise discretion, gives better assurance that children won’t find out dirt about their parent from someone with less discretion until they are ready to handle it.
> 
> As for what I think LL’s chances of R are, I can only speak from my own experience. My H and I have successfully reconciled after his affair and are building a stronger marriage. He completely severed ties with OW and is committed to our marriage. If LL’s W does the same thing and both work hard to improve their marriage, then, yes, I think it has a good chance. Without that *total commitment*, no, I don’t think the marriage stands a snowball’s chance in Heck.


You went to his workplace and exposed him to colleagues when you picked up the cell phone. That was your Cheaterville,

Here is a book that describes WAW psychology.



> Women's relationships today follow
> a very predictable pattern:
> They push men for commitment
> They get what they want
> They lose interest in sex
> They become attracted to someone else
> They start cheating
> They become angry and resentful
> They begin telling their partners that they need time apart and start pushing for a separation
> They blame their partners for their behavior...and eventually, after a long time of vacillating back and forth and several failed attempts to give up their affairs, they end their relationships or marriages.


I agree with you about the total commitment angle, however, to be honest I don't see what a WAW is going back to except money and perhaps the security of the family. If a woman has lost attraction for her husband and slept with 4 or 5 men in the space of half a year, she will have experienced a roller coaster of emotions from intense sexually connection that then collapses.

Glad things worked out for you. I know you suffered. How is your son? Did he beat his addiction?


----------



## LongWalk

LL, forgive me for bombing your thread with information. The quote below comes from a review of the book mentioned above. You may wish to read the entire review. This is all new to me.

I must say that it sounds very true to your situation. If you give it a careful read, you will I think gain a great deal of strength.



> Usually the women did not act decisively to end their marriages, which gave them a sense of security in spite of everything. Divorce produces separation anxiety, which is a sort of chemical withdrawal. Habitual attachments produce a safe, comfortable feeling, like a sedative; and loss of a person to whom we are bonded produces a panicky feeling like that of a child lost in a department store, Langley writes. So these women often lived in a “state of limbo” for years, unable to decide whether to remain married or seek a divorce.
> 
> _Most expected they would eventually achieve clarity about their own desires, but this seldom happened_. The author’s hypothesis is that “*clarity never comes, because what they are really trying to do is avoid pain. They are hoping that one day it won’t hurt to leave their spouse, or that one day they’ll no longer desire to be with someone else and will want to return to their spouse*.” (She neglects to mention that it may “hurt” many women to renounce their husbands’ financial support as well.)
> 
> Sometimes the paramour breaks off relations with the adulterous wife, for any number of reasons. In these cases, the women “experienced extreme grief, became deeply depressed and expressed tremendous anger toward their husbands” (my emphasis). In fact, according to Langley’s hypothesis, they were experiencing another form of withdrawal—they were stimulant addicts forced to go “cold turkey.”
> 
> These women “placed the utmost importance on finding a relationship that gave them the feeling they experienced in their affairs. In the meantime, “some women resumed sporadic sexual relations with their husbands in an effort to safeguard the marriage.” Though no longer attracted to their husbands, “desire was temporarily rekindled when they suspected their husbands were unfaithful [or] showed signs of moving on.”
> 
> In other words, even wives who have been unfaithful for years want to keep their husbands hanging on—they do not want him to leave them.
> 
> 4) Finally some women do reach a sort of resolution. This may mean divorce or a decision to remain married and continue their affairs indefinitely. _Langley does not mention a single case in which an adulterous wife returned to her husband unreservedly and sincerely_.


----------



## lostLove77

Lots to read and not much time right now. I will say I'm not seeing a drive from her to spend much time together or do any work whatsoever. So I will be visiting my lawyer on the 2nd and even she's got that ball rolling. Just got the request for financial documents on Friday for her lawyer. 

So looks like full steam ahead with divorce but I'm still desperately in love with her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Awakening2012

lostLove77 said:


> So looks like full steam ahead with divorce but I'm still desperately in love with her.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sorry, LL - Yours has been an arduous journey, and you have given it your all, so I admire your courage. I'm recently divorced after a year-long separation, and finally came to realize that despite everything, even if it did not work out, we can still care for each other and I can let go yet still hold a special place for him in my heart. And that is OK.

Good luck, and keep us posted.

Best Regards, - A12


----------



## lostLove77

Thanks A12 - I've been trying to keep up with your story but I think you've been having trouble letting go as well. I'm sorry your path ended in divorce. Your compassion is heart warming. 

I don't know how I'm going to learn to let go. Sometimes they say things you want to grab onto with both hands but I'm just not seeing any true movement from her to grab on to.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LongWalk

LL,

We are feeling for you. The article, I linked to was something to which someone on TAM referred. It is absolutely important to read because it is very systematic overview that will give you a description of your situation in impersonal yet accurate terms.

It actually offers a very clear framework to understand the TAM truisms. What is saddest is that it is very pessimistic.

Hope you've had a good day at the beach with your girls. Guess you have sand in your house.

An aside, my mother just told me that at a funeral she met one of cousins, who has just been dumped without warning by her husband of 20 years. She three sons they are a handful. She has no money except from her non-tenured teaching position at a university in LA.


----------



## jh52

lostLove77 said:


> So looks like full steam ahead with divorce but I'm still desperately in love with her.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


LL - the one thing you and a lot of people forget is the person you say you are still in love with no longer exists. She has "died" in a sense. What you remain in love with is the memories and the "future" dreams you always envisioned. Mourning a death of a love one takes time - but there will be a time in your life you will move on and look back and say " what the hell was I thinking".


----------



## Frostflower

LongWalk said:


> You went to his workplace and exposed him to colleagues when you picked up the cell phone. That was your Cheaterville,
> 
> It was a very limited expose which I knew would not likely go far. I also told his brother during a phone call and he eventually told their Mum. And, of course, my parents and my friends knew. Quite different from posting it on line. And, I did not expose him anonymously.
> 
> I am not saying it is necessarily wrong to do that, particularly in the case of a serial cheater. But I think one should carefully consider the consequences.
> 
> Here is a book that describes WAW psychology.
> 
> Thanks for the link. I didn’t read the whole thing, but will definitely go back and read more. One thing I will say is that we are not savages (word from the book). We are operating at a higher level. Well, hopefully most of us are! As I said, I haven’t read the whole thing, but I would think that cavewomen (for want of a better term!) changed sexual partners to assure survival of their offspring. If one mate delivered inferior sperm which resulted in a child who would not reach maturity, the habit of selecting new mates made sense in a survival-driven way. Women no longer need to operate in ways to ensure that they are impregnated by different men to ensure that some of their offspring will survive.
> 
> The quote from the book is missing here, but I must say as a woman I find it quite offensive:
> 
> Women's relationships today follow
> a very predictable pattern:
> They push men for commitment
> They get what they want
> They lose interest in sex
> They become attracted to someone else
> They start cheating
> They become angry and resentful
> They begin telling their partners that they need time apart and start pushing for a separation
> They blame their partners for their behavior...and eventually, after a long time of vacillating back and forth and several failed attempts to give up their affairs, they end their relationships or marriages.
> 
> I never pushed my husband for commitment. The decision to marry was mutual. I have never lost interest in sex, never cheated, never pushed for a separation, etc. i assume this quote was taken out of the context it relied on to make any sense. But, taken out of context, it is offensive.
> 
> I’m sure you didn’t mean it to be
> 
> 
> I agree with you about the total commitment angle, however, to be honest I don't see what a WAW is going back to except money and perhaps the security of the family. If a woman has lost attraction for her husband and slept with 4 or 5 men in the space of half a year, she will have experienced a roller coaster of emotions from intense sexually connection that then collapses. Is it not possible that, even after all this, a woman (or a man for that matter) could realize their mistakes and wish to reconcile and repair the damage as best they can?
> 
> Glad things worked out for you. I know you suffered. How is your son? Did he beat his addiction?


He is doing better, thanks for asking. So far he is staying off drugs. I still pray every day, and probably will for the rest of my life that he will remain clean. 

edit: Not sure why my comments did not actually come out blue, but I have responded within your post.


----------



## Conrad

LongWalk is right.

LostLove needs to end this charade as quickly and cheaply as possible.

The hell with the b!tch.


----------



## lostLove77

JH - completely agree. I'm still welded to the past and to what the future was supposed to be. 

LW, how has your relationship with your father affected your current relationships? Are you currently married?

I've been trying to get through Moxys thread and my anger with her H rises with each page and yet sometimes I feel she's writing my deepest feelings and fears. 

There is a lot of sand and vibrant color in the house with them here. I've been finding their company more joyful than in a long time. However there is a huge piece missing to all of this. The intimacy and shared experiences with my partner. Speaking with an adult and just sharing knowing glances, feeling each others next move (good or bad). What an unreal experience.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Frostflower

lostLove77 said:


> JH - completely agree. I'm still welded to the past and to what the future was supposed to be.
> 
> LW, how has your relationship with your father affected your current relationships? Are you currently married?
> 
> I've been trying to get through Moxys thread and my anger with her H rises with each page and yet sometimes I feel she's writing my deepest feelings and fears.
> 
> *There is a lot of sand and vibrant color in the house with them here. *I've been finding their company more joyful than in a long time. However there is a huge piece missing to all of this. The intimacy and shared experiences with my partner. Speaking with an adult and just sharing knowing glances, feeling each others next move (good or bad). What an unreal experience.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What a beautiful way to describe having your daughters there, LL!

When my H was gone, I felt that hole that you describe when my family got together for special events or just for family dinner. It was a quiet ache throughout the event. 

I hope you can find peace.


----------



## LongWalk

FF: I have seen you often enough on TAM and I respect your opinion. I agree with Annie Ash that TAM CWI contains too much gender gang bullying of women. Male anger about infidelity can degenerate into misogyny. There is no growth if you end up hating the opposite sex. Women do the same. It is quite simply easier to put your shoes into the desires of your own gender.

This involves some really basic feelings. Men, as everyone knows, consider sleeping with a woman "scoring". There is approval of being a player. Hugh Hefner was a player and slept with all the playmate of the month for many years, even after his body was repulsive. This was absorbed and applauded by village America and even village world. Some women even wear the bunny on label clothing.

I have two daughters whom I want to be happy. They are both doing well in school and I am confident that they will go to university and get careers that will give them financial independence. They will not be dependent on men for their entire identity, as it was for the women of my mother's generation.

FF, you are slightly older than me and have witnessed this change. I think it is a good thing and in that sense I am a feminist. So what do women need men for?

Sleeping around with a ton of guys will not make my daughters happy. I believe it will damage them. Look at Bullwinkle's wife, sleeping with older guys in Paris at the age of 13. She became the master of men but unable to settle down. Sex became means of advancement. She slept with her boss. I wouldn't be surprised if she had had other affairs.

Both Bullwinkle and she are upper middle class, educated. The instincts and the way they play out are too powerful be tamed by social class or education.

So, I don't want my daughters to be used. I want them to be able to explore their sexuality in healthy way – not feel used by men, but to have positive experiences that help them grow. What does that mean in the number of partners and the length of their relationships, or for that matter any man or woman?

Are we supposed to be in long relationships that last a lifetime? That was the ideal of the agriculture society without birth control. Churches and punishment for adultery enforced this ideal. Today religion in dead in Europe, where I live. The US has religion but still lives according the divorce is OK idea. Everyone follows the celebrity bust ups – the new moral compass is their example.

In fact, divorce rates are very high. Divorce is very common. Why FF, do you think that this is so? I think the biological patterns of sexuality do not lend themselves to fidelity, not without social pressure. Cheaterville is an expression of primitive social pressure. People Magazine coverage of this or that celebrities marital happiness is an expression of the Scarlet Letter mentality.

Returning the idea of what is healthy versus what is damaging promiscuity, do you think that the popular notions are gender neutral? Is what is healthy for men and women in terms of the number of partners the same? I think that if we are honest, we would say we don't want women to have as many partners as men.

If a woman had two partners a year on average between 16 and 28 before marriage that would be 24 different partners. That is already starting to get a bit high. I guess that if a 28 year old man who was trying to find a woman to settle down with heard this figure, it would make him think. If a fiance admitted to 35 or 40 partners, it would be scary.

I think women, too, are scared by men with high numbers, and yet alpha males like Hugh Hefner are not cringing. Tiger Woods got a new woman, a beautiful rich woman wearing Olympic gold medals. Lindsay Vonn has had limited sexual experience. She accepts his promiscuity, but would he accept her if she had had as many women as he had. Woods had hundreds, right?

You were happy with one relationship. That is still the ideal. It occurs. I hope my daughters don't marry and divorce, to go through all the turmoil. I am sure LL doesn't want it for his daughters either. I suspect that if all the people who cheated or fell out of love got divorced, there would be even more social chaos.

Black American women often have children without being married. Black American men don't settle down in nuclear families. I remember reading about this the Washington Post. So, what has happened in your life is not even a realistic expectation for a young black woman, especially if she is educated and moves up socioeconomically. Isn't this very unfair? I mean to have a mythical ideal that doesn't happen?

The same with having children. People are supposed to live the single life until the mid to late 20s, marry and start having children. Oops fertility doesn't cooperate. Suddenly we have all the IVF struggle. Worse the international adoption industry, which is all about the money. Now we even have surrogate wombs in India for high powered couples who don't have time to have their own babies.

The world is surreal. Men and women are angry at each other to some degree. TAM is a good place to talk. It is just not healthy for all the men to cheer on the man who busts the cheating wife and leaves her broken for a new younger more beautiful partner while the POSOM has his balls crushed by getting fired. It doesn't happen that often really.

The men do not go and read about women in lonely marriages whose husbands drink too much and play video games. I haven't, I must admit looked a threads where women complain about husbands who spend hours and hours watching sports on TV. What woman wouldn't secretly jump to have an NBA lover, instead of her husband who is more interested in stats from MLB, NBA and NFL, not to mention college sports. 

Make no mistake, sports worship is an expression of war, the desire and instinct for tribal warfare is satisfied through this passion.

I have droned long enough on LL's thread. Let us go further.



> Re: Lost's Story/Journal
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by lostLove77 View Post
> JH - completely agree. I'm still welded to the past and to what the future was supposed to be.


I am also convinced that she is no longer the same woman. Dead is a strong word, but what else is there. Let's she has been replaced, never to return. 

She gets high on each new lover, is disappointed and seeks the high again. LL, you are desired for the notion of security. But she will never desire you sexually, unless you make a lot more money and have chicks all over you. Or if you thwart a bank robbery and are a hero, then she'll be proud of you. But even then you cannot erase all the sexual and emotional novelty excitement. (the article discusses why the failed affairs just lead to new affairs and not back to the BS)



> LW, how has your relationship with your father affected your current relationships? Are you currently married?


 I am divorced and unhappily single. I believe my childhood made it difficult for me to be confident in anything. Although over time I managed to become fulfilled in ways that had been empty in childhood. My father, who came from another country, played no sports and did not help me or my brothers by playing catch or anything. That is a big social handicap for a boy in school.

I fixed this as an adult. I play a tough contact sport even though I am in my 50s. That keeps me active and has given me a social life. That was a hole I filled.

Since being divorced I fell in love once. That felt great but it was complicated and not successful. The feeling, however, was fantastic. Love is a drug. Music is the food. I wonder if I can capture that feeling again.

I have only had sex with one woman since being divorced and made out a couple of times with others. One thing that bothers me is that physically we change. I cannot perform the way I used to when I was young and that bothers my self confidence. I think for women who are past menopause, it must also be a problem. Men are programmed to be attracted to women who are fertile and yet if we live and date until 60 that cannot happen. Life is not perfect. TAM is a way of facing reality.

That is why you must hurry. Time will not stand still for you, my friend.



> I've been trying to get through Moxys thread and my anger with her H rises with each page and yet sometimes I feel she's writing my deepest feelings and fears.


I really like Moxy and actually I there many TAM women poster who write beautifully. You don't always think about age, there are no looks to influence our reaction. Everything comes down to words. People open up and tell the truth or their version at any rate. Very retro. More interesting than FB.

Maybe you can set up a chat date. You sit in a nice Internet cafe and she goes to one you both order coffee and talk virtually. Could be a way to escape the loneliness and connect with a sane woman who has the same problem. Moxy admits that she should not go on like this.



> There is a lot of sand and vibrant color in the house with them here. I've been finding their company more joyful than in a long time. However there is a huge piece missing to all of this. The intimacy and shared experiences with my partner. Speaking with an adult and just sharing knowing glances, feeling each others next move (good or bad). What an unreal experience.
> 
> Posted via Mobile Device
> What a beautiful way to describe having your daughters there, LL!


This is good and you will find someone else to share your life with. Ditch your wife asap. Once you file, you'll feel stronger. You won't have to tell yourself or others you are trying to win back a wife who settled on the carpenter musician dude after trying out half a dozen others. What cöckblock your wife have thrown up (on purpose). She wants you to be in love with her even though you don't even rate pity sex anymore. Cruel.

You'll be more attractive when you can think I am divorcing my broken affair addict wife. You sure don't need to tell women the story. That'll scare them off. Just know that your are wiping your hands of her. If you date someone seriously, you'll be able reveal a bit later on.

Having two girls and being a good dad will make you a good candidate for hot single moms; you just have to be careful not to fall in love too fast.



> When my H was gone, I felt that hole that you describe when my family got together for special events or just for family dinner. It was a quiet ache throughout the event.
> 
> I hope you can find peace.


FF is your love as good as before or is now forever sullied by his trangression? I didn't read the end of your thread but wasn't she a psycho bı†ch? What if she had been a better catch? Then would your H have returned? Ahh, but people often affair down:rofl:


----------



## Frostflower

LongWalk said:


> FF: I have seen you often enough on TAM and I respect your opinion. I agree with Annie Ash that TAM CWI contains too much gender gang bullying of women. The males anger about infidelity can degenerate into misogyny. There is no growth if you end up hating the opposite sex. Women do the same. It is quite simply easier to put your shoes into the desires of your own gender.
> 
> This involves some really basic feelings. Men, as everyone knows, consider sleeping with a woman "scoring". There is approval of being a player. Hugh Hefner was a player and slept with all the playmate of the months for many years, even after his body was repulsive. This was absorbed and applauded by village America and even village world. Some women even wear the bunny on label clothing.
> 
> I have two daughters whom I want to be happy. They are both doing well in school and I am confident that they will go to university and get careers that will give them financial independence. They will not be dependent on men for their entire identity, as it was for the women of my mother's generation.
> 
> FF, you are slightly older than me and have witnessed this change. I think it is a good thing and in that sense I am a feminist. So what do women need men for?
> 
> Sleeping around with a ton of guys will not make my daughters happy. I believe it will damage them. Look at Bullwinkle's wife, sleeping with older guys in Paris at the age of 13. She became the master of men but unable to settle down. Sex became means of advancement. She slept with her boss. Both Bullwinkle and she are upper middle class educated. The instincts and the way they play out are too powerful be tamed by social class or education.
> 
> So, I don't want my daughters to be used. I want them to be able to explore their sexuality in healthy way – not feel used by men, but to have positive experiences that help them grow. What does that mean in the number of partners and the length of their relationships, or for that matter any man or woman?
> 
> Are we supposed to be in long relationships that last a lifetime? That was the ideal of the agriculture society without birth control. Churches and punishment for adultery enforced this ideal. Today religion in dead in Europe, where I live. The US has religion but still lives according the divorce is OK idea. Everyone follows the celebrity bust ups.
> 
> In fact, divorce rates are very high. Divorce is very common. Why FF, do you think that this is so? I think the biological patterns of sexuality do not lend themselves to fidelity, not without social pressure. Cheaterville is an expression of primitive social pressure. People Magazine coverage of this or that celebrities marital happiness is an expression of the Scarlet Letter mentality.
> 
> Returning the idea of what is healthy versus what is damaging promiscuity, do you think that the popular notions are gender neutral? Is what is healthy for men and women in terms of the number of partners the same? I think that if we are honest, we would say we don't want women to have as many partners as men.
> 
> If a woman had two partners a year on average between 16 and 28 before marriage that would be 24 different partners. That is already starting to get a bit high. I guess that if a 28 year old man who was trying to find a woman to settle down with heard this figure, it would make him think. If a fiance admitted to 35 or 40 partners, it would be scary.
> 
> I think women, too, are scared by men with high numbers, and yet alpha males like Hugh Hefner are not cringing. Tiger Woods got a new woman, a beautiful rich woman wearing Olympic gold medals. Lindsay Vonn has had limited sexual experience. She accepts his promiscuity, but would he accept her if she had had as many women as he had. Woods had hundreds, right?
> 
> You were happy with one relationship. That is is the ideal. That still occurs. I hope my daughters don't marry and divorce, to go through all the turmoil. I am sure LL doesn't want it either. I suspect that if all the people who cheated or fell out of love got divorced, there would be even more social chaos.
> 
> Black American women often have children without being married. Black American men don't settle down. I remember reading about this the Washington Post. So, what has happened in your life is not even a realistic expectation for a young black woman, especially if is educated and moves up socioeconomically. Isn't very this very unfair? I mean to have an ideal that doesn't happen?
> 
> The same with having children. People are supposed to live the single life until the mid to late 20s, marry and start having children. Oops fertility doesn't cooperate. Suddenly we have all the IVF struggle. Worse the international adoption industry, which is all about the money. Now we even have surrogate wombs in India for high powered couples who don't have time to have their own babies.
> 
> The world is surreal. Men and women are angry at each other to some degree. TAM is a good place to talk. It is just not healthy for all the men to cheer on the man who busts the cheating wife and leaves her broken for a new younger more beautiful partner while the POSOM has his balls crushed by getting fired. It doesn't happen that often really.
> 
> The men do not go and read about women in lonely marriages whose husbands drink too much and play video games. I haven't, I must admit looked a threads where women complain about husbands who spend hours and hours watching sports on TV. What woman wouldn't secretly jump to have an NBA lover, instead of her husband who is more interested in stats from MLB, NBA and NFL, not to mention college sports.
> 
> Make no mistake, sports worship is an expression of war, the desire and instinct for tribal warfare is satisfied through this passion.
> 
> I have drone'd long enough on LL's thread. Let us go further.
> 
> 
> 
> I am now convinced that she is no longer the same woman. She gets high on each new lover, is disappointed and seeks the high again. LL, you are desired for the notion of security. But she will never desire you sexually, unless you make a lot more money and have chicks all over you. Or if you thwart a bank robbery and are a hero, then she'll be proud of you. But even then you cannot erase all the sexual and emotional novelty excitement.
> 
> I am divorced and unhappily single. I believe my unhappy childhood made it difficult for me to be confident in anything. Although over time I managed to become fulfilled in ways that had been empty in childhood. My father, who came from another country, played no sports and did not help me or my brothers by playing catch or anything. That is a big social handicap for a boy in school.
> 
> I fixed this as an adult. I play a tough contact sport even though I am in my 50s. That keeps me active and has given me a social life.
> 
> Since being divorced I fell in love once. That felt great but it was complicated and not successful. The feeling, however, was fantastic. Love is a drug. Music is the food. I wonder if I can capture that feeling again.
> 
> I have only had sex with one woman since being divorced and made out a couple of times with others. One thing that bothers me is that physically we change. I cannot perform the way I used to when I was young and that bothers my self confidence. I think for women who are past menopause, it must also be a problem. Men are programmed to be attracted to women who are fertile and yet if we live and date until 60 that cannot happen. Life is not perfect.
> 
> That is why you must hurry. Time will not stand still for you, my friend.
> 
> 
> 
> I really like Moxy and actually I there many TAM women poster who write beautifully. You don't always think about age, there are no looks to influence our reaction. Everything comes down to words. People open up and tell the truth or their version at any rate. Very retro. More interesting than FB.
> 
> 
> 
> This is good and you will find someone else. Ditch your wife asap. Once you file, you'll feel stronger. You won't have to tell yourself or others you are trying to win back a wife who settled on the carpenter musician dude after trying out half a dozen others. Instead, you'll be able to say I am almost divorced.
> 
> Having two girls and being a good dad will make you a good candidate for hot single moms; you just have to be careful to fall in love too fast.
> 
> 
> 
> FF is your love as good as before or is now forever sullied by his trangression? I didn't read the end of your thread but was she a psycho bı†ch? What if she had been a better catch? Then would your H have returned? Ahh, but people often affair down:rofl:


You make some interesting points, LW. However, it is getting late here, so I will just respond to your last questions. 

My love for my husband is stronger now. Due to the stresses we had been facing for the last few years, which had escalated in the months before he left, I had begun to wonder about my feelings for him. When he left, as time went on, I realized that I did love him, but I also realized that I didn’t need him, which I had always believed. When he came back, my heart sang. And it is still singing.

Had OW not been a psychopathic type,, would he have come back?.......I worried over this. I shared my worries with my husband who assured me that he loves me and that he thought about me and the kids every day he was away from us. Just words? Maybe. I talked to a good friend about my fears. Was I Plan B? My friend pointed out that R could have left OW, moved into his own place and continued with the separation. He didn’t have to come back. But he did. He chose me. 

Now some here would say he came back for companionship.....certainly not for money because I don’t have any. Thing is, he came back to all the stresses he had left. He didn’t have to.

One last thing. Knowing what I do of my husband, and knowing what I know of OW, I believe that she was a predator. She found someone who was stressed and confused and she preyed on him. I do not think that R would have become involved with her had she not pursued him. He has never gone into detail about what happened. I have never asked. I have only my knowledge of him to go on, but this is what I believe. The fact that she continues to pursue him or to seek vengeance, or whatever it is she is doing, reinforces this belief. That doesn’t excuse what he did, by any means. But realizing it gave me a deeper understanding of what happened. It also explains why I panic when he starts to look stressed. 

Did I answer your questions?


----------



## LongWalk

FF, I just got into work, first in the door after TAM insomnia. By boss just walked and I have tons of work. Will continue the threadjack later.

LL I write Moxy limericks. You get one, too.

There was a man in freefall
who thought that he heard his wife call
He then listened in vain for the sound of his name
But she only whispered, you'll feel pain, upon pain, upon pain

I now have deeper insight into 180. You must end all discussion of emotion and relationships with your wife. Do not tell that you love her, loved her, hate her, whatever. Give her nothing. If she hounds you for affirmation and you feel you must reply just say: You mean nothing to me. 

All of it feeds her need for validation. It only gives her strength to meet and fvck new guys.


----------



## catcalls

lostLove77 said:


> LW - I could never see either of us claiming that. Our children. Have been so important to us. She has even said that she used to feel jealous of the girls, they got so much of my energy and attention.
> 
> I am really surprised to hear of your depression. What has been going on? You seem so calm and confident.
> 
> Had an amazing day with the girls. I pined for my wife at times but it was not nearly as debilitating as its been. She really is missing such a special time, and I know I will be too when she has them. What a tragedy. My youngest just clings to me all day when I have them. She constantly wants held or to sit on me. She never seems sad, in fact most of the times she's the happiest little thing I've ever seen. I guess she just longs for the closeness that's been ripped away.
> 
> Hope you're feeling well Walk.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



you talk about this situation as a tragedy, which has befallen your family as though some unpredictable, unstoppable event has affected all of you. in fact, your situation is because your wife is not committed to you and your children as a family.

you reveal a lot about her with some statements. you mention that she is jealous of the children getting so much attention from you. previously you mentioned that the kids look up to her and were great for her on mother's day.and her subtle demands for you to basically worship her on mother's day.

the picture that emerges is a really self centred, attention seeking woman who cannot abide not being a princess and being placed on a pedestal. i wonder if your kids and you have been supplicating to her needs for so long. you have all been treating her as this beautiful person and that validates her. if there are a few ****** or your attention slightly wavers, she feels neglected and needs more and more external validation.

It would help you if you treat her as a person with a personality disorder and make her seek treatment. rather than waiting on her every whim and caprice and reacting to it.

so sad for your children to keep meeting all these men and not having daily interaction with you


----------



## LongWalk

Agreed, Catcalls. If you read the article about female infidelity, it strips all the mystery away. There is a psychological process that follows a pattern. Cake eating is a rational act from an evolutionary POV.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## northernlights

Hello Lovelost, I read your thread last night. Wow there's a lot here!

I'm glad you're seeing the lawyer. You're making the right decision.

What's struck me most of all about your wife is that her complaints are all about her feelings, never about what she concretely needs from you (or conversely, what she needs to not get from you). Do you even know know for sure what her love languages or love busters are? From over here, it sounds like you never had any chance of having a truly successful relationship when she doesn't know what she wants/needs and isn't capable of telling you. I'm sorry.


----------



## Chuck71

LongWalk said:


> Agree with you Chuck,
> 
> Girls are much smarter than boys when it comes to figuring out social calculus. LL's daughters will see mom temporarily excited about the new guy into whom she puts a lot of slu†ty pathos. When it burns out she'll look for a new one while daddy tries to hold everything together and is humiliated for his efforts.
> 
> Chuck, do you think if LL puts a hard 180 on WAW his daughters will notice and come to appreciate him more in the long run?
> 
> And what about Cheaterville for OM1? Would you advise it? It seems so vulgar. I recoiled from the idea at first but every TAM spouse who does it seems to gain satisfaction. Even if LL's wife were not named, the other POSOM would say "whoa this dude could do it to me, too, unh-uh, no thank you to more dates with her."



LW If LL stands strong, his children will notice it

it's like comparing Clint Eastwood to Neville Chamberlain

As for Cheaterville......where is the accountability?

If my sister was upset with me, what can stop her from

posting I was a cheating spouse, just for spite? If anyone can do it

I automatically question its entire process

in the end, every one will know the truth

like granny always said, "it comes out in the wash"





Even if LL's wife were not named, the other POSOM would say "whoa this dude could do it to me, too, unh-uh, no thank you to more dates with her."[/QUOTE]


What can one gain from force and fear? Temporarily, yes

long range....nothing. Ask the Greeks, Romans, Germany 1933

to 1945

Also.....most guys who are fooling around with married

woman, have no desire for moral enlightenment

They're in it for one thing only, the snatch

it can be related to the ego and superego

but its root spawns from the id


----------



## Chuck71

Conrad said:


> Anybody who has been cheated on will.


imo Cheaterville is on same level as Jerry Springer's circus


----------



## Chuck71

Allow a few days LL, I can debunk this

http://toqonline.com/archives/v7n2/v7no2_Devlin.pdf


----------



## Conrad

Chuck71 said:


> imo Cheaterville is on same level as Jerry Springer's circus


It's not for people whose ass won't fit through the window.


----------



## Chuck71

Conrad said:


> It's not for people whose ass won't fit through the window.


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

i still think there are better ways to go about it than mob rule exposure mentality


----------



## lostLove77

LW - I'm sorry for your hardship with divorce. This type of event is so encompassing I cannot believe how hard it is. 

I wonder if this refusal to let go has something to do with feeling that its all I have left of her. These thoughts in my mind are all that remain except for occasional events with the kids or our odd times out together. 

When I speak to her I still feel the pull but know her actions are not reaching back. 

I'm still feeling terrible for my mistakes and difficult ways while married. I know I took her warmth and openness for granted. That alone causes me great pain. As much as everyone says her actions are on her, she really did try to get me to go to counseling and understand that something was very wrong. No one here heard her say, marriage is for the birds, I'm not happy. I did t stonewall her completely but didn't fully explore what was happening. 

Feeling adrift without the girls here. Can't wait to pick them up from camp.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LongWalk

LL,
Hang in there.
Have you heard from Moxy?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lostLove77

> LL I write Moxy limericks. You get one, too.
> 
> There was a man in freefall
> who thought that he heard his wife call
> He then listened in vain for the sound of his name
> But she only whispered, you'll feel pain, upon pain, upon pain


I do listen and strain for her call. God help me. Very nice LW.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LongWalk

LL, what are you paying in child support? Is it just based on an agreement between you. Once you sell the house and move closer, you'll want to split raising them 50/50 right?


----------



## Frostflower

LongWalk said:


> Agreed, Catcalls. If you read the article about female infidelity, it strips all the mystery away. There is a psychological process that follows a pattern. Cake eating is a rational act from an evolutionary POV.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What is the psychological process behind male infidelity?


----------



## Conrad

Frostflower said:


> What is the psychological process behind male infidelity?


It's male nature.


----------



## Frostflower

Conrad said:


> It's male nature.


You do realize this means war.


----------



## Conrad

Frostflower said:


> You do realize this means war.


King Solomon had 750 wives.

I've always felt sorry for him.


----------



## LongWalk

Frostflower said:


> What is the psychological process behind male infidelity?


Also, cake eating. But men are less concerned with divorce. They want strange and wife all at the same time.

The goal is to spread the seed. The selfish gene.

Men do not have to be in love to have sex. Women place more emotional commitment on sex partners. That is why they cut off sex from BH while cheating.

If people understood the psychological dynamics better, men would work to date and woo their wives after marriage. They would also be confident and decisive, i.e., alpha enough to be attractive. Wives would not cut off sex or nag their husbands into betadom, which then makes them into the husband who are unattractive.

It's all tricky. Throw in pornography and oops it just became more complicated. Is porn the equivalent of having other partners on the psychological level?


----------



## moxy

lostLove77 said:


> Moxy - I like the idea of three things for myself daily but actually have a hard time seeing the time for it.
> 
> These girls take so much time. But maybe I can keep it simple.
> 
> I'm still going through these depressive feelings so waking up early to take a run or something like that has been hard.
> 
> Alright, no more excuses. Have to work harder on me.


Make time. The things you do don't have to be big things. You could simply buy yourself a treat that you would not have bought if she were there, put your feet up on the coffee table for a while if that was taboo, or sleep naked in some truly luxurious sheets after a fabulously long shower, take that ratty old t-shirt that she despised but you wanted to hold on to and wear it with immense pride in your defiance of the past. The idea is to de-emphasize her, to break the hold the past has on you by doing something nice for yourself. That way, you get into the habit of being nice to yourself and aren't reserving "niceness for LL" as a thing that comes from the woman who is "Not Worthy of Being Callled Mrs. LL".

Doing something with your girls as a way for you all to bond is a way of doing something nice for yourself, too. Do something that she-who-must-not-be-named wouldn't do with them, something that is special between you and your daughters by virtue of it being shared only between you. Dad & Daughter days are wonderful; I bet your girls love spending time with you, too. When you do something with the girls, do something that deliberately excludes the absent-one; it will reinforce YOUR connection to your daughters. They are yours, too, and they bring joy -- if you're willing to see it.

Depression sucks. It just plain sucks. You have to deal with it in whatever way you can. I come to TAM and vent my sad little guts out. And, I watch a lot of Sci Fi because it is NOT reality. You have to find a way to circumvent the sadness. Re-connect with something that you liked to do before your wife was around, something that is just yours. Be kind to yourself.

Anytime you have to force yourself to do something, you'll be disinclined to do it. You don't have to work HARDER at being good to yourself, you just have to work differently at being good to yourself. Think of it not as a medicinal thing, but a kind thing. You're doing something nice for yourself. Because you've earned it. Because doing something enjoyable is actually going to be better than waiting. That's what you're doing -- I know; I'm often in your shoes. You can call it a million other things and give a zillion excuses, but what you're really doing is waiting for the other person to snap the heck out of it and be who you believed them to be again so that your world isn't torn asunder anymore. And, since that depression is taking its toll on you whether or not you mean to be holding on to hope, you might as well treat yourself nicely in the meantime. So, don't work harder. Play more! Have more fun.





lostLove77 said:


> I've placed to much validation of myself on my relationship with her.
> 
> I felt attractive through her intimacy, felt like a good parent through her interactions with the girls and a creative person by her praise of my work and photography.
> 
> ... I have to find the strength within myself but I'm tired of feeling isolated from friends and family. Constant struggle.


You have let her affection for you replace your love for yourself. That won't work forever. You can't depend on her love to know your worth. 

Let me tell you something. If what you're looking for is validation, look between the lines. If she thought you were worthless as a bunch of toadstools in the trash, she wouldn't even be stringing you along with false hope; she'd be downright cruel to you. She's keeping you around because she still values you. Not enough to treat you right, mind you, because she lacks integrity and morality and common sense and decency, but she probably does value you. You see that. You see the opportunity to regain her validation and go back to the way things were. You're not going to fill in the gaps yourself if you're waiting for her to do it. It doesn't matter if she likes you enough to keep you around as a Plan B in case her crisis of self really does go badly. What should matter is what you think of yourself.

You can hold on to validation from your relationship, if you must. She's still stringing you along, so you have some value. 

Now, for the rest of it....

To feel attractive, pamper yourself a little and then go someplace where you'll get a million compliments! Have a massage, buy a new outfit (or dress up in a nice one), eat a great meal somewhere, soak up the sun on the beach. It takes like two weeks of sprucing yourself up to be used to it. Once you pay attention to yourself, you won't need her attention to make you realize that you are attractive.

Your quality as a parent has jack squat to do with her and everything to do with you. You wanna feel like you're a great parent? Take your kids to someplace they will love and spoil them rotten just to show them that you love them. They will start to tell you that you're the best dad in the world. Plan some fun stuff with them. Ask them "who is the best dad in the world?" They will tell you that you are. And you know what? Absolutely NONE of it has to do with your ex-wife. Your relationship with your children is yours and theirs alone, not hers. Family can be family without her. Acknowledge her absence if you're haunted by it; say it aloud. I do this. "Oh, this would have been great if stbxh was here, it would have felt like all the family was there; too bad he's busy acting like a fool to realize what he's missing; I'm just going to have fun without him!". And, expressing that longing does something very, very big and important -- it dispels it! You say it and the hold it has over you is gone because, then, you can start thinking of all the reasons why things are fine without her, too. Take the kids to Disneyland. Or, just to the park. Buy them hula hoops and jump ropes and ice cream and flowers for the hell of it. Fly a kite with them. Go to some painting place and paint a ceramic whatchamacallit together so that they will have a keepsake. Silly things will delight them; they will take your mind off of the very important job of being the dad that is so good a dad that the ex wife will praise it. One day, your daughters will grow up and find men of their own; the effort you spend now in establishing your relationship with them will remind them not to settle for second best when the time comes to settle down. And, you know what? That's all you and nothing to do with your ex-wife; YOU will be the awesome dad that is making his daughters feel happy and confident and cherished, which makes you the great parent all on your own -- and, by doing fun stuff with them, you'll be teaching them that their happiness doesn't have to depend on the successes of their partners because you look like you're doing okay.

Do more of your work and your photography -- for you! Fill in the blanks for her since she's too busy being a fool to fill them in as you'd like. What would you like for her to say about your work? Say it in her stead. Learn to take her place in your own heart. You have to love yourself more than you feel sadness at the loss of her affection. Find other folks to praise you. Join a photography club or a forum. You'll get loads of praise and support there and then you will remember your creative side.

Stop isolating yourself. Yeah, I know, easier said than done. You don't want to hang out with friends or family because it reminds you of this chaos? Make some new friends. Or, hang out with the ones that won't be pushy about their opinions and will let you be you. 

And lift a lot of weights. You'll feel powerful. Everyone does. That kind of exhaustion that comes from really working yourself as hard as you can will remind you that you can overcome anything fifteen minutes at a time.

I commented on these passages because I understand them. When you're depressed and grieving, caring about yourself seems like an alien concept; but it's the only thing that will help. When you're used to relying on the validation of someone you think is special and it's gone, you have to face yourself and really see who you are. That is really hard to do. You gave that job to someone else because it was too hard for you to do it yourself, but now it's your turn to tend the self for a bit and you must. I know how you feel. I've been in your shoes. Often. Maybe I'm still in them. Trust me when I say that the only way you're going to be able to decide what to do with the rest of this stuff is by taking care of yourself, by tending to the aspects of you that you had let be handled by the relationship in the past. Then you'll be free and whatever happens will be tolerable.


----------



## Conrad

That's the moxy I first encountered on this board.

Gospel truth.


----------



## Frostflower

Conrad said:


> King Solomon had 750 wives.
> 
> I've always felt sorry for him.


Now we know where he got his wisdom!


----------



## catcalls

moxy said:


> Make time. The things you do don't have to be big things. You could simply buy yourself a treat that you would not have bought if she were there, put your feet up on the coffee table for a while if that was taboo, or sleep naked in some truly luxurious sheets after a fabulously long shower, take that ratty old t-shirt that she despised but you wanted to hold on to and wear it with immense pride in your defiance of the past. The idea is to de-emphasize her, to break the hold the past has on you by doing something nice for yourself. That way, you get into the habit of being nice to yourself and aren't reserving "niceness for LL" as a thing that comes from the woman who is "Not Worthy of Being Callled Mrs. LL".
> 
> Doing something with your girls as a way for you all to bond is a way of doing something nice for yourself, too. Do something that she-who-must-not-be-named wouldn't do with them, something that is special between you and your daughters by virtue of it being shared only between you. Dad & Daughter days are wonderful; I bet your girls love spending time with you, too. When you do something with the girls, do something that deliberately excludes the absent-one; it will reinforce YOUR connection to your daughters. They are yours, too, and they bring joy -- if you're willing to see it.
> 
> Depression sucks. It just plain sucks. You have to deal with it in whatever way you can. I come to TAM and vent my sad little guts out. And, I watch a lot of Sci Fi because it is NOT reality. You have to find a way to circumvent the sadness. Re-connect with something that you liked to do before your wife was around, something that is just yours. Be kind to yourself.
> 
> Anytime you have to force yourself to do something, you'll be disinclined to do it. You don't have to work HARDER at being good to yourself, you just have to work differently at being good to yourself. Think of it not as a medicinal thing, but a kind thing. You're doing something nice for yourself. Because you've earned it. Because doing something enjoyable is actually going to be better than waiting. That's what you're doing -- I know; I'm often in your shoes. You can call it a million other things and give a zillion excuses, but what you're really doing is waiting for the other person to snap the heck out of it and be who you believed them to be again so that your world isn't torn asunder anymore. And, since that depression is taking its toll on you whether or not you mean to be holding on to hope, you might as well treat yourself nicely in the meantime. So, don't work harder. Play more! Have more fun.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You have let her affection for you replace your love for yourself. That won't work forever. You can't depend on her love to know your worth.
> 
> Let me tell you something. If what you're looking for is validation, look between the lines. If she thought you were worthless as a bunch of toadstools in the trash, she wouldn't even be stringing you along with false hope; she'd be downright cruel to you. She's keeping you around because she still values you. Not enough to treat you right, mind you, because she lacks integrity and morality and common sense and decency, but she probably does value you. You see that. You see the opportunity to regain her validation and go back to the way things were. You're not going to fill in the gaps yourself if you're waiting for her to do it. It doesn't matter if she likes you enough to keep you around as a Plan B in case her crisis of self really does go badly. What should matter is what you think of yourself.
> 
> You can hold on to validation from your relationship, if you must. She's still stringing you along, so you have some value.
> 
> Now, for the rest of it....
> 
> To feel attractive, pamper yourself a little and then go someplace where you'll get a million compliments! Have a massage, buy a new outfit (or dress up in a nice one), eat a great meal somewhere, soak up the sun on the beach. It takes like two weeks of sprucing yourself up to be used to it. Once you pay attention to yourself, you won't need her attention to make you realize that you are attractive.
> 
> Your quality as a parent has jack squat to do with her and everything to do with you. You wanna feel like you're a great parent? Take your kids to someplace they will love and spoil them rotten just to show them that you love them. They will start to tell you that you're the best dad in the world. Plan some fun stuff with them. Ask them "who is the best dad in the world?" They will tell you that you are. And you know what? Absolutely NONE of it has to do with your ex-wife. Your relationship with your children is yours and theirs alone, not hers. Family can be family without her. Acknowledge her absence if you're haunted by it; say it aloud. I do this. "Oh, this would have been great if stbxh was here, it would have felt like all the family was there; too bad he's busy acting like a fool to realize what he's missing; I'm just going to have fun without him!". And, expressing that longing does something very, very big and important -- it dispels it! You say it and the hold it has over you is gone because, then, you can start thinking of all the reasons why things are fine without her, too. Take the kids to Disneyland. Or, just to the park. Buy them hula hoops and jump ropes and ice cream and flowers for the hell of it. Fly a kite with them. Go to some painting place and paint a ceramic whatchamacallit together so that they will have a keepsake. Silly things will delight them; they will take your mind off of the very important job of being the dad that is so good a dad that the ex wife will praise it. One day, your daughters will grow up and find men of their own; the effort you spend now in establishing your relationship with them will remind them not to settle for second best when the time comes to settle down. And, you know what? That's all you and nothing to do with your ex-wife; YOU will be the awesome dad that is making his daughters feel happy and confident and cherished, which makes you the great parent all on your own -- and, by doing fun stuff with them, you'll be teaching them that their happiness doesn't have to depend on the successes of their partners because you look like you're doing okay.
> 
> Do more of your work and your photography -- for you! Fill in the blanks for her since she's too busy being a fool to fill them in as you'd like. What would you like for her to say about your work? Say it in her stead. Learn to take her place in your own heart. You have to love yourself more than you feel sadness at the loss of her affection. Find other folks to praise you. Join a photography club or a forum. You'll get loads of praise and support there and then you will remember your creative side.
> 
> Stop isolating yourself. Yeah, I know, easier said than done. You don't want to hang out with friends or family because it reminds you of this chaos? Make some new friends. Or, hang out with the ones that won't be pushy about their opinions and will let you be you.
> 
> And lift a lot of weights. You'll feel powerful. Everyone does. That kind of exhaustion that comes from really working yourself as hard as you can will remind you that you can overcome anything fifteen minutes at a time.
> 
> I commented on these passages because I understand them. When you're depressed and grieving, caring about yourself seems like an alien concept; but it's the only thing that will help. When you're used to relying on the validation of someone you think is special and it's gone, you have to face yourself and really see who you are. That is really hard to do. You gave that job to someone else because it was too hard for you to do it yourself, but now it's your turn to tend the self for a bit and you must. I know how you feel. I've been in your shoes. Often. Maybe I'm still in them. Trust me when I say that the only way you're going to be able to decide what to do with the rest of this stuff is by taking care of yourself, by tending to the aspects of you that you had let be handled by the relationship in the past. Then you'll be free and whatever happens will be tolerable.



well said, doing small things for yourself is a great way to build your own self esteem and see that you can be happy inspite of her. you can find happiness in everyday habits and trivial things. becoming happier makes you a better man, a better father in itself. if your wife sees that you are a thriving and happy man, she will start to covet you again. but by then hopefully you will have woken up to see her for what she really is (an immoral and disloyal person) and move on to better avenues


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## LongWalk

Read that article on women's infidelity. The path your wife has taken is actually comprehensible. The chances of meaningful reconciliation are very poor. She has lost the ability to love you.

You must file for divorce before she does so that she cannot introduce any nonsense. You don't need any accusations of abuse or assorted falsehoods. She is not balanced. You cannot trust her judgment.

She will take you far more seriously once you file for divorce. If she files first, it is another emasculating snip of an instrument. Don't let her do it anymore.


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## lostLove77

She already filed a bit over a month ago and then put it on hold. When I got upset about her seeing him again she thought i was going to try to do something with custody and started it back on friday. Meeting with a lawyer early next week. Everything is still so raw right now I'm just trying to get through the day and pickup my daughters. Wish I had a ton of vacation time just to spend with them and relax a bit. I may take thursday and friday off just for that.


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## lostLove77

Just had a session with my IC. Biggest thing i'm having trouble with is forgiving myself for my mistakes and not listening to her enough. Regroup just spoke to this about his impending divorce. Feeling sick.


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## Conrad

lostLove77 said:


> Just had a session with my IC. Biggest thing i'm having trouble with is forgiving myself for my mistakes and not listening to her enough. Regroup just spoke to this about his impending divorce. Feeling sick.


Based on the way your wife is behaving now, nothing you did mattered one whit.

It's all about her.


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## LongWalk

What did you do? Get drunk and beat her every Saturday? Did you forget to tell her you loved her?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lostLove77

Biggest mistakes?
- Acted very immature around her with her family. *****ed and complained about driving up to the in-laws, *****y during family vacations with them
- She really wanted to move states and I argued it was too expensive and then later we bought this vacation home, could have moved and afforded the one house in that state but i couldn't justify paying XXX in taxes in that state....
- She asked multiple times about going to counseling and I denied and spoke around it. I had some kind of prideful shell around my emotions and needs. I know now that I was taking her comments way too personally and got defensive quickly. By the time I wanted to go to counseling, it was too late for her.
- In general she felt i was shutoff and I can see why.
- Didn't treat her like a fully equal partner. There were many times i was highly insensitive.

I told her all the time that I loved her but I didn't treat her equally in the marriage. I know I was more open than others but I didn't do enough.


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## LongWalk

Everything you described there is very minor in the big picture. But LL, do you know, if you had listened to her and done everything she wanted, she would have done more or less the same thing. She stopped loving you and was seeking reasons to justify her lack of affection. The only way you could have regained her love way back then was to have become more alpha and to have courted her unpredictably. She wanted excitement. Your response was to be nicer to her. The nicer you were, the less attractive you appeared.

POSOM1 probably treats her like dirt. She is a little scared by him but that also turns her on. Otherwise why would she go back to him after he went ape shı†?

Why is she divorcing just now? Here are some possible reasons:

1) POSOM1 wants to marry her. He is ready at last to commit.
2) She cannot stand the thought of intimacy with you and being married reminds her that you have that desire. It sickens her and she wants to pour cold water on it.
3) She wants to exclude you from your daughter's lives and this is a step towards that;
4) She wants to help you start a new life because she cares about you;
5) She wants more money and figures being sole physical custodian will force to fork over more.
6) She doesn't want to commit more adultery.
7) She wants to hurt you.

None of these answers may wholly true. The reasons may shifting in her own mind. She is ultimately creating reasons to support her feelings. Of course, you may have failed to tell us about some outrageous stuff that you have done. 

Does POSOM1 have a criminal record? Have you checked? Are they going to move together without getting married? Are you going to pay spousal support so that he can afford to spend more time playing the guitar?


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## catcalls

Biggest mistakes?
- Acted very immature around her with her family. *****ed and complained about driving up to the in-laws, *****y during family vacations with them

ok that is a bit immature. tell me she was all wonderful to your family and loved spending time with them. why did you do it? did you not enjoy spending time with them. was something bothering you?


- She really wanted to move states and I argued it was too expensive and then later we bought this vacation home, could have moved and afforded the one house in that state but i couldn't justify paying XXX in taxes in that state....

fine, did you want to move states? did she ask you about your preferences and did you state them? 

or is it another item on her wish list which you have to fulfill.

you had a good reason not to move states because of taxes. could she not understand that


- She asked multiple times about going to counseling and I denied and spoke around it. I had some kind of prideful shell around my emotions and needs. I know now that I was taking her comments way too personally and got defensive quickly. By the time I wanted to go to counseling, it was too late for her.

guess you should have been more open about this. how was this request phrased. was it like you have problems and because of that our marriage is not good. so let us go and sort it out. or was it we both have issues, let us sort it out


- In general she felt i was shutoff and I can see why.
- Didn't treat her like a fully equal partner. There were many times i was highly insensitive.

again why did you feel you could not communicate with her. is it intrinsic to you or is it something that developed in the marriage as a coping strategy to deal with her. 

in what way was she unequally treated?

how were you insensitive or do you feel you were insensitive because she told you that you were?

I told her all the time that I loved her but I didn't treat her equally in the marriage. I know I was more open than others but I didn't do enough

again how was she not equally treated?

did she tell you that she loved you all the time?

is your perception you did not do enough because that is what she told you or is that what you blame on her straying off.

like the rest of her 'emotional issues', i find nothing concrete here. all vague and 'touchy feely'. not that it is not legitimate. but a lot of it feels like her perceptions and justifications to make you feel inadequate and support her separating from you.

fine even if we agree that she had grounds to be unhappy, you feel that it is a proportional response to leave her husband dangling and cavort with a myriad of men and expose them to her children.

what have you done that justifies that. in the end, if she is so unhappy she should have divorced you and set you free and moved on. but she likes to have 'sympathetic' people looking up to her and validating her. 

why do you think she is distancing herself from her mother. is it because mom is not gushing about her and her choices? or was mom also emotionally distant and not open with her.

you should absolutely use IC to find out the reasons for your unhappiness, but dont go mad trying to figure out how you could have kept her happy and other what ifs.


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## LongWalk

LL, there are many women here on TAM who write things like my marriage looks perfect on the surface but we haven't have sex for 1.5 years. I can't stand it when he touches me. He knows and has stopped. I still have sexual desire only not for him. I don't want go on living like this, yet I do not want to hurt him.

Read Confused. She sounds just like your wife at an earlier stage. She is afraid she going to start cheating. At least two other women write to say they feel exactly the same way. 

One woman cheated and now lives separated with her husband in the same house. They have not had sex in three years.


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## LongWalk

My love for my husband is stronger now. Due to the stresses we had been facing for the last few years, which had escalated in the months before he left, I had begun to wonder about my feelings for him. When he left, as time went on, I realized that I did love him, but I also realized that I didn’t need him, which I had always believed. When he came back, my heart sang. And it is still singing.

So a better love.

Had OW not been a psychopathic type,, would he have come back?.......I worried over this. I shared my worries with my husband who assured me that he loves me and that he thought about me and the kids every day he was away from us. Just words? Maybe. I talked to a good friend about my fears. Was I Plan B? My friend pointed out that R could have left OW, moved into his own place and continued with the separation. He didn’t have to come back. But he did. He chose me. 

Men are more likely to return because their reproductive strategy does require falling in love to have sex to the same degree. Hence the practice of polygamy.

Now some here would say he came back for companionship.....certainly not for money because I don’t have any. Thing is, he came back to all the stresses he had left. He didn’t have to.

People like the familiar

One last thing. Knowing what I do of my husband, and knowing what I know of OW, I believe that she was a predator. She found someone who was stressed and confused and she preyed on him. I do not think that R would have become involved with her had she not pursued him.

She pursued him. That is her reproductive strategy. She had been with more than one man.

He has never gone into detail about what happened. I have never asked.
Men are different. They want to know what happened, often longing for all sorts of graphic detail, which can make it easier to cope or more difficult. Men suffer mind movies. Women don't seem as bothered by the physical aspect of cheating. They dislike emotional commitment by their spouse to the OW. 

I have only my knowledge of him to go on, but this is what I believe. The fact that she continues to pursue him or to seek vengeance, or whatever it is she is doing, reinforces this belief. That doesn’t excuse what he did, by any means. But realizing it gave me a deeper understanding of what happened. It also explains why I panic when he starts to look stressed.

Stress makes him want to escape and be entertained? 

Did I answer your questions?

Quite well.


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## lostLove77

> - Acted very immature around her with her family. *****ed and complained about driving up to the in-laws, *****y during family vacations with them
> 
> ok that is a bit immature. tell me she was all wonderful to your family and loved spending time with them. why did you do it? did you not enjoy spending time with them. was something bothering you?


She was wonderful to my family. She's an extremely personable person and makes friends very easily. I myself didn't really relate to her family at first. They didn't have many hobbies and didn't seem interested it watching the girls so she and I could go out while we were on vacation. Funny thing is that towards these last couple of years I have started to get really close to them and my MIL has been very sweet with me.



> - She really wanted to move states and I argued it was too expensive and then later we bought this vacation home, could have moved and afforded the one house in that state but i couldn't justify paying XXX in taxes in that state....
> 
> fine, did you want to move states? did she ask you about your preferences and did you state them?
> 
> or is it another item on her wish list which you have to fulfill.
> 
> you had a good reason not to move states because of taxes. could she not understand that


I really didn't want to move but she felt she had made sacrifices to move with me when we moved out west and then back to another metro area and now it was her time. Plus, if we could afford two homes why not just one where she would also be happy.



> - She asked multiple times about going to counseling and I denied and spoke around it. I had some kind of prideful shell around my emotions and needs. I know now that I was taking her comments way too personally and got defensive quickly. By the time I wanted to go to counseling, it was too late for her.
> 
> guess you should have been more open about this. how was this request phrased. was it like you have problems and because of that our marriage is not good. so let us go and sort it out. or was it we both have issues, let us sort it out


At first she said she had issues and wanted me to come and help her. I get real defensive, thinking I was already working as hard as I could for my family. I was afraid of getting blame.




> - In general she felt i was shutoff and I can see why.
> - Didn't treat her like a fully equal partner. There were many times i was highly insensitive.
> 
> again why did you feel you could not communicate with her. is it intrinsic to you or is it something that developed in the marriage as a coping strategy to deal with her.
> 
> in what way was she unequally treated?
> 
> how were you insensitive or do you feel you were insensitive because she told you that you were?


I honestly was not sure why I was getting frustrated, I didn't know how to process my emotions. I took a lot of things as attacks and didn't have the close back and forth with her that I should have had. I did try to show her that I cared but I think I got sort of depressed and beat down from a stressful career, non-sleeping children, a house to fix up and the pull of family. At times I felt unappreciated as well. Frustration was bottled up and vented very poorly.

Once we went to a counselor when we were still living together it started to break the seal. The counselor and the kick in the ass from how my W was feeling started me on my journey of processing those things. 




> I told her all the time that I loved her but I didn't treat her equally in the marriage. I know I was more open than others but I didn't do enough
> 
> again how was she not equally treated?
> 
> did she tell you that she loved you all the time?
> 
> is your perception you did not do enough because that is what she told you or is that what you blame on her straying off.


We were very close and passionate with each, but things did taper off slowly but never seemed to totally drop off. She felt I didn't listen to her wants and she would always differ to my judgement - colors for the rooms in the house etc... When she did start asserting herself i guess it was too late. I actually liked the assertive version of her, it took pressure off of me to make decisions. I may have shown resistance to her pressings but I always came around when she pushed something.

We never really fought, i think we were both pleasers and didn't want to clash. The two times were things were the most tense actually happened in the exact same place. First time we went out with some of these younger friends she made at work at a casino. She wanted to dance and such in the club section. I barely knew any of the people there and felt like a dumb white boy trying to dance, the music and lights were giving me a headache and I went to the casino floor to play a little bit. I thought I told her where I was over text but we crossed wires. I waited for a while and she said she was looking for me but I swear I would've seen her in this small casino. Anyway, got tired of waiting and texted her that I was leaving, finally ran into her and we left.

We end up at the same place again with pretty much the same crew, she's speaking with a male counselor from her school a lot and drinking heavily. I didn't really want to drink because I knew our daughter would be up very early and I would have to take care of her since she was drinking. I started to get uncomfortable with the situation and around midnight asked her to go. She starts to stumble all over me and says no we have time, it's her birthday (this is the same day we threw a big party for our daughters birthday, I was shot)! Finally after waiting a bit I said I had enough I'm leaving and started to walk out the door. She thought I was going to the bathroom or something. I texted her at the vehicle I was ready to pull out and then all hell breaks loose. How can I leave her.... That was the maddest I had been during our marriage and she was equally. How could I leave her..... I was feeling abandoned too by her ties to these other random people but she felt I should be happy to do what she wanted for her birthday and because she had a really bad professional year. 

Sorry, long winded but NO i do not think we tried everything and that it gives her a pass for her EAs. She said she tried everything she could to work on our marriage for 2 years but I don't think i'm that horrible of a person. There had to be other things!


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## ReGroup

Like Chip said earlier, this has nothing to do with you.

She is who she is.

I see a lot of similar dynamics in your relationship when comparing it to mine.

Keep venting away - we are here to help.

180 her azz.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## moxy

lostLove77 said:


> She already filed a bit over a month ago and then put it on hold. When I got upset about her seeing him again she thought i was going to try to do something with custody and started it back on friday. Meeting with a lawyer early next week. Everything is still so raw right now I'm just trying to get through the day and pickup my daughters. Wish I had a ton of vacation time just to spend with them and relax a bit. I may take thursday and friday off just for that.


If she has already filed, then she is either trying to extricate herself from a relationship with your or she is trying to push you toward an action that she can accept as a step toward moving you from Plan B to Plan A. If it's the latter, her gesture is probably out of frustration and desperation, but if it's the former, then it means she is really telling the truth when she is telling you to move on. Perhaps she is just not able to commit to a marriage with you and just doesn't know how to be a grown-up about it; she may be stringing you along simply to appease her sense of guilt over it, so she doesn't feel like she's "the bad guy". Either way, if one of you has already filed, then it is high time to step out of the arena of hope and into that of action. 

If you really aren't able to let go, give it one last shot and then take the answer as your cue to act on either reconciling or divorcing. Period. No more limbo. Ask her to meet you at the MC or at a restaurant or somewhere you can talk. Don't try to be romantic or sentimental. Don't appear desperate. Be confident that this limbo is not what you want.Be firm. And cut to the chase. You tell her simply this -- "We need to decide something right now; divorce or reconcile. Which is it?" Do not take any waffling or nostalgia-babble or anything. It's a one word answer; each word which is attached to a set of actions.

Divorcing means that there is no more marriage, period, and for a time, you will probably need to go completely dark and purge her from your life in all respects except child-care related things; it means you accept that this is dead and walk away. And, then you detox from the addiction -- like it's a thing in a dirty crack-pipe. And she can date whoever she wants to -- hopefully not you among the number. Reconciling means that she has to tell you all the transparent truth and actually give up her sleazing around and be willing to commit and face the problems that caused her to check out and cheat; and also that you honestly and truly deal with all the reasons you neglected her, devalued her, and refused to work on this marriage with her; you're a long way from that right now yourself (because you can't see your strength without her right now and so you must re-claim your strength), just as she is a long long way from being something other than vile.

You can't push her into a commitment or nudge her there with your niceness or wait out her disloyalty in the hopes that she will grant it as a reward. Nope. She's not having a tantrum, but actually showing you that she has moved on. The longer you leave it, the more she will want to NOT be with you. Right now, you want her and she doesn't want you but she doesn't have the guts to tell you; your only move left is to say "fix this now or eff off" (except when it comes to handing over the kids for custody arrangements, etc). There is no way that a woman who does not actually want a man will be swayed by his puppy-dog like loyalty in any lasting way, except to get off on his attention. You can't make her want you. She is not even hiding the fact that she has moved on. This isn't even cake-eating but just her choosing to debase you so she can avoid guilt. Don't let it happen! Take charge of things! 

If your wife is actively and openly dating someone else, then you need to serve her divorce papers right now, or else sign the ones that she has filed. Period. If she's so open about the dating that she isn't even hiding it from you or lying or denying it, then this is something you must let go of on the outside, even if you can't let go on the inside. Go see your attorney. Get your half custody of your daughters, and build a life for yourself and the girls without Voldemort. 

Do not settle into being her back up plan. If she wants to date others openly, then the marriage is dead and the only one preventing the death certificate from proving it is you because you refuse to call the time of death. You can't stand there forever, not when she is already moving on and custody dangers are looming around the bend. You need to snap out of the sadness long enough to protect yourself and your daughters.



lostLove77 said:


> Just had a session with my IC. Biggest thing i'm having trouble with is forgiving myself for my mistakes and not listening to her enough. Regroup just spoke to this about his impending divorce. Feeling sick.


You don't have to forgive yourself. You're allowed to feel regret and remorse. But, trying to hold on to the dead marriage will NOT help you forgive yourself for your mistakes, nor will it help you heal from your regret and remorse. Some lessons just have to be learned this way. It's sad. I know. 



lostLove77 said:


> Biggest mistakes?
> - Acted very immature around her with her family. *****ed and complained about driving up to the in-laws, *****y during family vacations with them


Definitely not good. If she's really close to her family or very attached to them, this could make her love for you sour into an antagonism. It may have contributed to killing her feelings a little. *But, it still doesn't justify her cheating! * From this, you will learn that even if you don't like your lover's values, you must not demean her for having them or sabotage her connections -- if you want your relationship to last.



lostLove77 said:


> - She really wanted to move states and I argued it was too expensive and then later we bought this vacation home, could have moved and afforded the one house in that state but i couldn't justify paying XXX in taxes in that state....


Possibly a source of resentment, maybe enough to knock some of her devotion to you out of her. Maybe enough for her to come to the conclusion that you don't really care enough about her to compromise. But, *still not a justification for her cheating! *. From this you learn that if you value money over your lover, your lover will resent you. Discovering your own values and how to compromise for them is never an easy process. 



lostLove77 said:


> - She asked multiple times about going to counseling and I denied and spoke around it. I had some kind of prideful shell around my emotions and needs. I know now that I was taking her comments way too personally and got defensive quickly. By the time I wanted to go to counseling, it was too late for her.
> - In general she felt i was shutoff and I can see why.
> - Didn't treat her like a fully equal partner. There were many times i was highly insensitive.
> 
> I told her all the time that I loved her but I didn't treat her equally in the marriage. I know I was more open than others but I didn't do enough.


You were getting enough of your needs met that you didn't want to rock the boat. She wasn't. And, she wasn't strong enough to keep pushing for MC, to keep faithful when you weren't meeting her needs. Maybe she's a pampered princess type and has an attention seeking tantrum when she doesn't get her way. Maybe you were really and truly inconsiderate. *Still no excuse to cheat.* She could have left you first. Since she didn't, I'd say that you have more evidence that her behavior was Exit Affair strategy. If so, you can't pick this thread up and keep the tapestry going; the thread has been knotted, the knot has been glued down, and the thread needs to be cut free. And, from this you will learn that being vulnerable and being humble, being willing to hear that there's a problem even when you don't want to admit a blow to your ego is an important thing; what doesn't bend, will break -- or stretch itself into deformity. You will also learn that being domineering is never a good way to make your lover feel valued by you. You valued your status in the relationship more than you valued her comfort. Maybe that was fair; she sounds immature and princessy and maybe you were resisting it; it might be enough to destabilize your relationship at it's core, but, it *still doesn't justify her cheating*. She wanted out and she made a way out, like this.

You feel bad about the ways you have failed this marriage. So, apologize to her and deal with the guilt; figure out why you behaved this way. And, then, recognize that her behavior toward your marriage wasn't just failure but devastation. 

None of those behaviors justify her cheating. They might, in some way, explain why she checked out of the marriage, but you can't go back in time and undo it now. The only way is forward. If she stopped loving you because of these things, or at least stopped believing that the marriage could work anymore, then her cheating was essentially a set of exit affairs; she was looking for a way out. Give her that way out. Give her a divorce. 

And give yourself a little forgiveness because some lessons just have to be lived, as the adage says. I'm sure she wasn't perfect. And, you know, I'm sure you both brought problems into the marriage that damaged it -- but she was the one who introduced other partners and that changed it all. You might have messed up, but you didn't do the irrevocable bad, she did. This is on her. You might have starved the love you shared by not nurturing it or hearing what she needed, but she chose to give it poison instead of sustenance. It isn't a matter of forgiving yourself, but just letting her walk her path. 

Maybe one day in the future, your paths will converge again. Right now, they do not. And, no matter what part you had to play in the marriage's failure, you were not the one that murdered it. Shift your focus to what you can fix and what you can change -- your life, your relationship with your daughters, your adventures in your days. She is not your whole world, just a part of it -- one you have to walk away from at this time in order to protect yourself and your kids.

Go see your lawyer. Go get a divorce. Grieve later. I know this sucks. I know it's a horrible shame. I know you wish so desperately that it wasn't so. But, wishful thinking won't do you any good. You've got to figure out why you made the mistakes you made and address those parts of you that need attention. If you really need the push, go give her that one ultimatum and be done with it. From what I see, she won't give up this other stuff because for her, the marriage is really over and she isn't just trying to push your buttons to influence your actions. You must be prepared to do the action that is required of you now. Be strong. It's time to act, now.


----------



## moxy

lostLove77 said:


> NO i do not think we tried everything and that it gives her a pass for her EAs.


You're right. You didn't try everything. But, she gave up before you did and that is why she cheated. She doesn't get a free pass to cheat just because she's lost hope; at that point, she should have divorced you first and then gotten involved with other men. She is immature and she is weak.



lostLove77 said:


> She said she tried everything she could to work on our marriage for 2 years


And, maybe she did. Maybe she felt like she was giving you her all but you just refused to respect her values, wishes, and differences. Maybe she just couldn't hope that she would earn the gift of you granting her enough consideration to care about her needs. You're trying to hang on now and that's your understanding of trying everything. She urged you to hear her over and over, but you couldn't or wouldn't, and that was her version or trying everything she could, even if it isn't good enough. People are different and have different thresholds of strength. She is weak and and chose a cowardly exit by cheating. Maybe she just isn't as strong as you wish she had been; maybe you're stronger than you feel like you are right now.



lostLove77 said:


> but I don't think i'm that horrible of a person. There had to be other things!


You don't sound horrible. Immature and conflicted, maybe. Not willing to deal with real problems or treat your wife's concerns and wishes with respect or value, maybe. Taking advantage of your male privilege to tune her out and ignore her emotional needs, maybe. But, not horrible. 

Just because she couldn't take trying to get you to hear her anymore doesn't mean you're a bad person. It means you two lacked the skills to communicate enough to resolve your problems. In the face of them, you tuned it out in the hopes that things would just work out right and she checked out of the marriage and cheated. 

For the record, if you were a horrible person, she probably wouldn't be conflicted in how she deals with you. I don't think she is rejecting you, but that she believes that things can't work anymore. Maybe she will change her mind one day and seek you out, but you really can't allow yourself to be degraded and cuckolded in the meantime without speaking up against it, and you can't give in so much to your desire to turn back time and hold on that you don't actually address the very real issues you have that have caused you to behave this way toward her. She checked out the marriage and cheated (demonstrating her extreme weakness and poverty of character), but you kept her at arm's length, too. There had to be a reason. Maybe deep down you knew something wasn't right between you both, that she would eventually act out and betray you? Her weakness does not indicate your horribleness, only her weakness. You were inconsiderate. You could change. But, it seems like it's too late -- except that it's not too late for you to figure out why you allowed yourself to take for granted someone dear to you. Is it that she's not as dear to you as you now want to believe? Maybe you needed a break, too -- a chance to take care of yourself instead of always taking care of her. You're not horrible, but the two of you just weren't connecting and she didn't have the inner resources to keep trying; her weakness does not necessarily vilify you. After all, you did not cheat on her; so, she is the horrible one, even if you are not 100% free of being wrong.


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## lostLove77

Moxy, thank you. Your insight strikes very hard, deep and clean. I honestly don't believe any of her actions or words were never meant to manipulate but as you said out of guilt and desire not to cause pain. 

What you have given me is a start and your story gives me hope in finding my courage. I cannot thank you enough.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CEL

I am coming late to this one so please forgive me for stepping on any toes. For my own piece of mind I am going to recap some of the highlights.

1. You get the I love you but not in love with you speech at this time she is deep in an EA with another man.

2. You move out she keeps you hanging because she still wants your support and for you to be there for you.

3. You find out she is dating and she lies to you and tells you it has not gone physical.

4. She tries to introduce him to her parents.

5. She does introduce him to your kids. Against your wishes by the way.

6. You finally find out it was physical but she says oh but only after the separation. Lets be real with her history this is most likely not true she cheated it became physical and she wanted to legitimize it by separating with you. That way she does no feel guilty for the cheating.

7. She says she breaks contact with him now they are just friends. RIGHT just friends which means that the EA continues and since it did go physical will again go physical.

8. You go to IC and she is focused on just being friends when pressed she says she respects you enough to give it another try. Because HER actions show so much respect.

9. You find out that she is back with the other man so she blame shifts and likens the fact that you guys had shyte for communication for years to her cheating DURING your marriage because lets be real an EA is still an affair.

10. Now she is currently dating and sexing the OM while telling you to wait around because you are going to spend some time together.

11. She tells you she does not love you.


So my conclusions

1. She will never come back to you while she has you BOTH. It won't happen she has ZERO reason to she gets you for support and him for sex. So you are the Beta male and he is the Alpha. You contribute to this through your complete lack of self esteem I bet when she hurts you the thought crosses your mind that you deserve it because of the past few years. This holding pattern just continues to bleed you out.

2. The reason you feel so hollow is because you are carving out your heart every time you get with her by allowing her to run all over you with ZERO consequences. The point is if you want to feel better you have to give up the poison that would be HER. For an alcoholic they have to give up the bottle every time they go back to it they feel a little bit more worthless. That is where you are every time you give in to her you lose a little more of your worth in YOUR eyes. Hence you feel like utter crap

3. Your life is being systematically destroyed all because you will not take a stand and make ONE boundary. If you are in contact with him we will not be together and I will get a divorce.

4. In affair one of the many common things is that as long as the affair happens the marriage will not be get better. This is a fact.

5. Trickle Truth is another one what you think you know is only the tip. Wait for the whole shaft.

6. This damn house you are trying to sell. PRICE the damn thing lower your life is going down hill and you are still holding onto this thing take a DAMN lose and move ON. What is more important you going to the funny farm or having a little more debt.

7. She is running the show when she wants you jump, what she needs you get, she gets to screw who she wants and you just gotta be there for it.


You excuse all this out of LOVE for her. This is no love this is being a punching bag if a women came to you and said her husband beats the shyte out of her 3 times a week but she stays because she LOVES him, what would you say? If a man came to you and said you know my girl hurts me all the time so much that it is the worst pain I have ever felt in my life but you know I just keep going back over and over again, what would you say? You want an easy way to detach every time you see her think of her naked being serviced by the guy and loving it. When she texts you think of her lying in bed with him. I know this sounds vulgar but you are just dying here and you are LETTING her kill you.


----------



## Conrad

Thanks to Longwalk for getting my gal pal Moxy in the game here.

We were getting nowhere with him.


----------



## Chuck71

LL I agree with earlier posts, your reasons were extremely minor

Everything she is doing....has nothing to do with you

When DDay knocked on my door, ex tried to say I was a drunk

yes I drank a bit but it was out of boredom

she never complain when I slammed shots of Scotch while doing her

research papers for on-line classes. If it benefited her, good to go!

She is spending way too much time guy hopping

you may consider trying for full custody....mention this to her

get to 50k and observe. Treat your situation like chess or as Greg Maddux

would, he was always two pitches ahead, setting the batter up for next pitch

You miss the idea and concept of love, not what she is now

everyone wants a family, you still can....you still have your girls

you are seeing her without the mask on, had you saw this when you met

you would have run like heII.....


----------



## LongWalk

Conrad said:


> Thanks to Longwalk for getting my gal pal Moxy in the game here.
> 
> We were getting nowhere with him.


Conrad,

I am grateful to have been part of something meaningful. I have learned so much and about myself as well, really.

People who get divorced feel guilt and sorrow. This distorts their ability to understand what happened at different levels. At one time in human history men and women lived closer to nature and we understood ourselves better. Men and women cheated in prehistory but the social cost was high so we invented religion and civilization to prevent violence and create moral order.

We have harvested the fruits of that creation. We believe in marriage because it has long track record. But marriage is facing new factors that never did in thousands of years. We must be honest we are confused.

1) Birth control
2) Mobility - loss of community
3) Surplus of food, medical care, longevity
4) Death of religion
5) State powers (enforcement of paternity, relations with children)
6) Television
7) Pornography
8) Consumerism

There are probably more factors that I have not thought of. Each of these have been discussed various threads and forums on TAM.

Machiavelli, don't know if he is still banned, used to say the dämndest things. One time he guessed out of the blue that a man's 19-year-old son was not his biological child, and he did this with no direct clue, other than the connecting the son going off to college and the wife starting her affair.

The OP said "wow, that was creepy, how did you know?"

His analysis was based entirely the psychology of reproductive strategy, the beta provider had fulfilled his purpose and was history.

This idea, that we merely are archetypal biological stereotypes, goes against our desire to perceive ourselves as unique individuals with free will and control over our destiny. I do not believe we should demean ourselves by agreeing to categorize experiences deterministically. Every person on TAM who writes about their individual pain, confusion and suffering is crying out "I am. I am somebody. I am not a waste product in a biological process. I want to feel good again."

From a biological point of view LL's wife is following a reproductive strategy. She had two children with him and wanted different sperm for her next big investment (9 months + the defenseless state after giving birth). She felt this change as a death of desire for LL. She wanted MC because the feel violated the ideals she had about marriage - the cultural norms.

The cry of her limbic brain for a new man was too strong. At some point even before the separation she had a PA with POSOM1. LL wrote this at one point. The separation was a means to furthering that sexual and emotional relationship. At the same time she wanted to keep in place as provider, without any sexual rights. This is purely the selfish gene in action.

Perhaps if LL had filed for D very early on and done a hard 180, been more alpha, he could have put an end to it. However, in general the damage to the love and attachment is profound, even if it is covered up.

POSOM1 was a rush for LL's wife. She wanted more. Thus there were 4 or 5 POSOM. LL has never been able to share this information systematically because he has wished to deny and minimize the horror of it.

Quite clearly she had longer tryst with OM3. She even talked about him being in her life.

Of the 4 or 5 other men LL's wife has experienced different things. At least one or two of them might have sexual more exciting. Others might have been attractive is some other ways. But as she enjoyed this, the consumer in her began to formulate a higher total demand. She wanted one man's penis, another man's voice, another's eyes. One man told jokes well, another had charm, another was earnest cute. LL is in there as a benchmark. And his beating them all in one department loyalty and integrity.

Loyalty and integrity alone do not make her pvssy wet. LL has been crossed out in her limbic brain to do list.

If POSOM1 gets into big trouble. She loses her job or whatever, she may want LL to be her man again, but that is only as a security measure. The animal desire for him – all the good or bad pop music songs about the love feeling, they are probably not coming back. Unless LL becomes a superhero.

Intellectually LL can see a lot of this since he been on TAM for sometime. Accepting and acting are difficult because civilization has lied. LL, like everyone, has confidence in marriage as the rule of law in our lives. But that is just a branding thing.

Disenchanted, another BS, does not believe in the marriage. He is struggling with the economic consequences of divorce and paying money to his ex. He can barely hold on to the house. Of course, he can no longer afford to get married again. He is an attractive guy; his female colleagues buy him drinks. He has slept with a very hot young one and others interested in him but he is still feeling very beat down.

He does have women friends on TAM and it helps. They flirt.

LL is grieving but unfortunately he is probably going to pay a very heavy price for his inaction now. Many future problems and even more pain and bitterness await him since he is paralyzed in "Jail" while his wife is rolling the dice and moving around the board, picking up new properties and building hotels to bankrupt LL when starts to move his piece on the board of life again.

Moxy can you tell LL that he should think about the following because he will not listen to Conrad, the others or me?

1) Get the financial picture in order
How much equity does she have in the house? How much debt has she built up during the separation?

2) POSOM1 is the man right now. Does he have a criminal record? Does he have a terrible credit rating?

3) Do you want THC dude living with your children?

4) Do you want custody of your children?

5) Do you want to go for Cheaterville for POSOM1. This is vulgar, Moxy, but it is approbation of the villagers and it works. As to fallout damage, well, if LL's mom is disgusted with her. There is not much issue as privacy goes.

I think is the only easy alpha move left for LL.

Disenchanted and Chris had great success with Cheaterville. I have yet to read a negative comment about it.

Moxy, you place high value on privacy and dignity, I know but look at what holding all the radioactive misery inside close to you heart does. It causes damage.

We suffer damage and we need to fight back. I have failed to fight back in my life and I have paid for it.

LL must, don't you think, fight back or risk harming his creative powers?


----------



## LongWalk

Chuck71 said:


> LL I agree with earlier posts, your reasons were extremely minor
> 
> Everything she is doing....has nothing to do with you
> 
> When DDay knocked on my door, ex tried to say I was a drunk
> 
> yes I drank a bit but it was out of boredom
> 
> she never complain when I slammed shots of Scotch while doing her
> 
> research papers for on-line classes. If it benefited her, good to go!
> 
> She is spending way too much time guy hopping
> 
> you may consider trying for full custody....mention this to her
> 
> get to 50k and observe. Treat your situation like chess or as Greg Maddux
> 
> would, he was always two pitches ahead, setting the batter up for next pitch
> 
> You miss the idea and concept of love, not what she is now
> 
> everyone wants a family, you still can....you still have your girls
> 
> you are seeing her without the mask on, had you saw this when you met
> 
> you would have run like heII.....


:iagree::iagree:

Chuck he should not discuss custody with her. He should just file for it. Sole custody in POSOM1 who smokes weed in hanging around. Is she not getting stoned with him and doing sexual stuff she never did with LL?

When gets to school after a hard weekend does she connect with her colleagues and the teens she counsels? Bet she is not high on the principal's list of the schools star faculty. She may even be the butt of jokes the slu†† psychologist. Kids know about Facebook. They have dissected her for a laugh. Her reputation is ruined.

It's going to follow LL's daughters. POS boys are going to go after them.


----------



## Chuck71

In truth, FC would be almost impossible for LL

but I like to stoke a reaction and observe

right now she wants LL as a "girlfriend".....let's throw

her a change-up


----------



## LongWalk

What's FC? Oh, full custody. Yes, difficult. But things may be fsr worse than LL thinks. The party animal wife he has not really seen.

When you sleep with two or three at the same time. All sorts of primal mating... I would be surprized if there were not a lot of pictures. she more or less admitted to sexting out if control. POSOM1 discovered her infidelity and chances are he has many pic and photos from her phone/computer. He may have threatened to share them with LL. Remember the acute need to eat lunch with him? Don't be shocked if her vagina is on the Internet.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

I wonder if MIL would support sole custody for LL?
Blood runs thicker than water but they helped finance the separation. Must regret it now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CEL

Let's runn down the people who are telling him to detach and work on himself "180".

1. All of TAM
2. Counselor IC
3. Mother in law

So NO ONE is saying do what he is doing. It is not working there comes a time when you have to TRY the advice you are given. You keep saying you are getting there but I watch actions not words. I am not trying to pound you or hurt you I am trying to shed some light into the darkness. You want to save your marriage? You want to heal?

1. Do the full 180 

2. File for divorce 

This gives you a bargaining position of strength right now you have nothing to offer. And you are only breaking yourself more and more each day.


----------



## ReGroup

I'd be patient with LL - I think he's still in a state of shock.

We all learn at our own pace.

Deep down inside he knows what he's doing is the wrong approach - I am confident he'll adapt.

He wouldn't continue to journal if he didn't want to learn. 

His marriage is most likely done. Observing from the outside, we can all say he did everything wrong... But this is his journey. 

I probably made more mistakes than LL did and for a longer stretch. At some point I said, "enough is enough" and got on board with The TAM Program. Now we have a small clique on this board helping me put my wife in her place anytime she's up for it.

LL will soon get to that place. And it will feel good.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lostLove77

Thanks Group. My heart is nowhere close to my mind. My mind has been sprinting during this whole thing, in many directions. Some rational some completely fabricating good and bad things. However my heart is still standing still as Moxy mentioned. 

When she reaches out it pokes it back little by little. 

I thank all for guidance on this journey. Your care has been a life preserver in my loneliness.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LongWalk

> We were very close and passionate with each, but things did taper off slowly but never seemed to totally drop off. She felt I didn't listen to her wants and she would always differ to my judgement - colors for the rooms in the house etc... When she did start asserting herself i guess it was too late. I actually liked the assertive version of her, it took pressure off of me to make decisions. I may have shown resistance to her pressings but I always came around when she pushed something.


Arguments about nothing, except that she was pushing to find reasons to explain why she no longer loved you. You retreated but that only reinforced her dissatisfaction. This process is well described in the article. It is in fact almost scary to see that things follow a pattern. But is there any surprize patterns are what the universe is all about.



> We never really fought, i think we were both pleasers and didn't want to clash. The two times were things were the most tense actually happened in the exact same place. First time we went out with some of these younger friends she made at work at a casino. She wanted to dance and such in the club section. I barely knew any of the people there and felt like a dumb white boy trying to dance, the music and lights were giving me a headache and I went to the casino floor to play a little bit. I thought I told her where I was over text but we crossed wires. I waited for a while and she said she was looking for me but I swear I would've seen her in this small casino. Anyway, got tired of waiting and texted her that I was leaving, finally ran into her and we left.


You felt uncomfortable that night because she was giving off a very strong vibe that your should get lost. That hurt like all heck. She was probably trading tongues with someone that night. It was a key night in which she acted upon her lost love and the desire for strange. 



> We end up at the same place again with pretty much the same crew, she's speaking with a male counselor from her school a lot and drinking heavily. I didn't really want to drink because I knew our daughter would be up very early and I would have to take care of her since she was drinking. I started to get uncomfortable with the situation and around midnight asked her to go. She starts to stumble all over me and says no we have time, it's her birthday (this is the same day we threw a big party for our daughters birthday, I was shot)! Finally after waiting a bit I said I had enough I'm leaving and started to walk out the door. She thought I was going to the bathroom or something. I texted her at the vehicle I was ready to pull out and then all hell breaks loose. How can I leave her.... That was the maddest I had been during our marriage and she was equally. How could I leave her..... I was feeling abandoned too by her ties to these other random people but she felt I should be happy to do what she wanted for her birthday and because she had a really bad professional year.


What was wrong with work?

"Stumble all over you" You mean a physical altercation? Or she was so drunk she almost fell down. Perhaps, you were not alpha enough at this point. She wanted you to kick her butt, but the sad truth is she was already not in love with you and was headed for the cheating side of down. You were getting a gut feeling that she was connecting with male counselor and it did not feel right.

When did POSOM1 come into the picture? Have you checked his criminal record?


----------



## moxy

LL, the worst pain of limbo comes from within; when your head and your heart want different things, you get ripped apart in the windstorm. For precisely this reason, you have to focus on you, find your center. 

Yes, you love her and you wish things were different, wish it so much that you are willing to be torn apart by your grief because it encompasses your whole world. Believe me when I say that I understand. But, you can't let that self-destruction happen. Especially because you have daughters who will need you in their lives.

Try for shared custody. Get a really cool dog (or cat, iguana, beta-fish...). Make plans with your friends. Hang in there, man; the human spirit is resilient.


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## LongWalk

> The Wikipedia page on *misogyny* is frozen. It says "this page is currently protected from editing until disputes have been resolved."
> 
> The page on
> *Misandry* /mɪˈsændri/ is open to editing.
> 
> Dislike of, contempt for, or ingrained prejudice against men and /mɪˈsɒdʒɪni/ the hatred or dislike of women or girls are getting unequal treatment.


LL,

It is important that you do not become a misogynist. Some poster, including me are trying to shock you by painting an unflattering portrait of your wife. This must hurt because (one) you love her and (two) the facts are ugly. So, you are caught in the jaws of dissonance.

It seems impossible that the person you love is bad. Something must give way: either you go on believing she good and deserving of love or the slime stink begins to plague your nostrils and you begin suddenly to not just dislike her but to hate her.

You do not want to transfer this hate to all women. That would be unhealthy since you are the father two girls.

To be honest I feel sorry for your wife. She fell out of love and was confused. This did not match her expectations of marriage. Worse the feelings of indifference and revulsion towards you when you touched her bothered her.

She was also in the jaws of dissonance. She did not want to make love to you but you had done nothing to deserve rejection so she felt torn up. She asserted herself over the color of paint issue, which assumed symbolic importance. And made you feel like a jerk. Why should she want a jerk who doesn't understand bedroom pastel color schemes to hug her or touch her body.

She cheated and then moved out, but wanted to keep you in reserve. Maybe, she even thought it might be possible to fall back in love with you. But after POSOM1 she went on to number 2 and number 3 and so on. You were not an option. At that point she should have stated clearly that divorce was necessary.

She enjoyed having sex with different men, but this also caused some dissonance because promiscuity among school counselors is not a desirable trait. That is a reason that she stayed married to you: she considered that a form of permission from you. If your husband okays screwing around, then it is not really cheating, is it? If hubby knows, then permission has implicitly been granted.

Dissonance point... can't remember how many there were... never mind. A counselor is supposed to help patients/clients address their problems with insight that leads to action and resolution. Your wife, in her personal life at any rate, is not really showing much insight.

A woman invites her estranged husband to lunch to discuss her embarrassing behavior. Behavior that is incompatible with her professionalism causes yet more dissonance. 

Her job is messed up. Her status as a mother is messed up. Her role as wife messed up. You MIL is pissed at her so her role as daughter is messed up... Your wife is in deep trouble.

And yet your wife doesn't want to believe that she is a bad person. Someone else has to be bad. There is no one else to blame but you. If you are a bad person – because none of the nonsense is really her fault. She admits being broken, not immoral. So if you broke her, you are not good.

If you are not good, then you should come out of the divorce poorly. Why should a bad person who doesn't understand interior decoration get off so easy.

LL, I am not saying that she is thinking like this, but you need to consider the possibility that she is not going to be fair or rational. Perhaps she will be generous and fair with regards to the property, alimony, perhaps...

You need to get ready for unpleasant conflict. You need to get mad but not misogynistic. The sooner you get mad at your wife, the easier it will be to prevent unhealthy emotions from destroying you.

If you perish, your wife will just say, it was smart to dump you, since you were on your way down the tubes anyway.


----------



## lostLove77

LongWalk said:


> "Stumble all over you" You mean a physical altercation? Or she was so drunk she almost fell down.


She almost fell down, i caught her a couple of times.

She was supposed to skype with the girls tonight. Got a message that she got "stuck" and can't do it tonight. I asked her if she was going to be "stuck" all evening, we were supposed to speak after they went to bed as well. I've been batting around what I wanted to say to her about this trip she wants to do here at the beach with her parents and the girls and what Moxy said about making a choice and then going dark. Guess her actions alone tonight answers that question. Have to figure out how to handle this visit and going dark. She was real texty today. Lots of little small talk, having trouble finding a job, thinking of switching cable companies. WTF, i can't wait to get to the lawyers office and feel like I'm doing something about this situation.


----------



## Conrad

lostLove77 said:


> She almost fell down, i caught her a couple of times.
> 
> She was supposed to skype with the girls tonight. Got a message that she got "stuck" and can't do it tonight. I asked her if she was going to be "stuck" all evening, we were supposed to speak after they went to bed as well. I've been batting around what I wanted to say to her about this trip she wants to do here at the beach with her parents and the girls and what Moxy said about making a choice and then going dark. Guess her actions alone tonight answers that question. Have to figure out how to handle this visit and going dark. She was real texty today. Lots of little small talk, having trouble finding a job, thinking of switching cable companies. WTF, i can't wait to get to the lawyers office and feel like I'm doing something about this situation.


Lost,

You keep listening to what she says and ignoring what she does.


----------



## LongWalk

lostLove77 said:


> She almost fell down, i caught her a couple of times.
> 
> She was supposed to skype with the girls tonight. Got a message that she got "stuck" and can't do it tonight. I asked her if she was going to be "stuck" all evening, we were supposed to speak after they went to bed as well. I've been batting around what I wanted to say to her about this trip she wants to do here at the beach with her parents and the girls and what Moxy said about making a choice and then going dark. Guess her actions alone tonight answers that question. Have to figure out how to handle this visit and going dark. She was real texty today. Lots of little small talk, *having trouble finding a job,* thinking of switching cable companies. WTF, i can't wait to get to the lawyers office and feel like I'm doing something about this situation.


What happened to the high school she was working at?
Was she fired?


----------



## lostLove77

Ok, so she was stuck doing tutoring work and she actually called me. Guess little changes either way.

LW - She's looking for summer work and part-time through the year.


----------



## moxy

Did you bring up the D vs R question? Or, that you need to have a serious talk about the D paperwork or anything? Or, were you just glad she called you and letting her lead the convo?

Given how seriously troubled things are between you, what did you talk about? And, what are you hoping to accomplish when you talk to her?

I'm not trying to pick on you, but I think you ought to be thinking of these things for your own good so that you are more clear about what you want and not just blown around by her whims.Your post shows a lot of focus on her, but less on you. Remember that you've gotta take care of yourself, because she's not going to do it for you.


----------



## LongWalk

LL, I am sorry for having dwelt so much on the negative things in the struggle that you are going through. Many here, including Moxy, you and I, are all scared, worn or wounded by the death of our naivety.

To have no sexual experience is one kind of innocence but there is another kind that comes with intense love. There is no feeling like the suspension of reality when a man and woman can make time stand still. In those hours when love is fresh, often running on nothing but fuel vapor. You can almost exist on pure optimism… almost. There are nagging details in Eden. You can only make love on an empty stomach a while.

There’s humor in young love. You hurry to get a quickie in and rush out. And then suddenly a look crosses her face. Oops, her underwear just suffered a secondary hit from what you didn’t have time for, but she just laughs it off. That’s you in there and she loves you even you are wet spot in her underwear.” 

Young love does not always have a lot of money. Just the opposite, my ex and I seemed to do just fine on squeaky bed in a crummy apartment. We made love on a grubby Russian overnight slow local train with bed bugs. Had some nasty red patches in the morning. A married couple would have fought like hell about whose stupid idea it was to take rundown line.

Young love has intense dreams. If we are mature or growing up we can ride that intensity and charge out to do things we always wanted to do, in part to prove to our partners that we are worthy of their love. Nature made it this way so that children would have a better chance.

A couple of generations ago women were not expected to have careers. Today they also want to work and make their own mark on the world: tougher for the family to support two individuals with aspirations. We think it modern and fair.

But somewhere along this uneasy way, love cools, becomes warm beans on toast, the smell of summer grass clippings, children hopping on the bed. It can be good. It was enough for you. From time to time there has to be some regeneration. A guy has to court, woo, do something unexpected. Being nice all the time doesn’t fvcking work. You’ve been nice and patient for so long; it just makes things worse. She wants you even less.

The problem, LL, is that she went for a new love drug feast. That destroyed the good force from your early love. That history is still there for you but for her it is gone. Worse, once she tried POSOM1, she wanted to try to get a new love buzz from another. And so, there were POSOM3456. There could be even more.

When she called you up to talk about POSOM1’s threat to expose your wife’s infidelity further, she cried. You wanted to help her but you couldn’t. In another age, beta you might have gotten some cousins and brothers and bashed his head in. Who knows maybe an alpha rage would have rushed up and you would have done it on your own. After that the sex might be awfully good. Sorry, but today we are raised not to do that stuff. That is for the bottom classes in the trailer parks who expect to go to prison anyway.

All you can do now is 180 and defend yourself from suffering further. Right now you are feeling even more destroyed by those stupid text messages. The stronger you are the more likely she is to love you, although the chances or R are poor now. The formality of divorce means relatively little.

Once more I must ask: Is POSOM1234 hanging out at her house? Who owns that house? Does POSOM1 have a record? Is your wife smoking dope? Did she lose her job and the high school or was she just to lazy to go to work?


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## CEL

Both Conrad and Moxy are right I am glad you are going to take there advice. I know I was blunt with you but I wanted you to hear it how I would tell a friend. I will try to temper my words from now on tho. I hope today brings you some progress.


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## Conrad

CEL said:


> Both Conrad and Moxy are right I am glad you are going to take there advice. I know I was blunt with you but I wanted you to hear it how I would tell a friend. I will try to temper my words from now on tho. I hope today brings you some progress.


We're in need of an update here Lost.

No hiding.


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## moxy

Agreed. Don't hide. Don't disappear. 

Even if you don't like what people are saying and can't act on it, you can say that you hear it but just can't do that yet or disagree. No one is trying to bully you, just help you. 

Remember that you're an individual and You're allowed to refuse action and to disagree. 

But, the more you post, the more likely you are to make things better for you whatever route you take because you're staying in touch with your situation and what you want out of it.


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## LongWalk

Hi LL,

You helped me to get the courage to start my own thread. You are welcome to come and swing lumber at me. I don't know what I am going to do.


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## lostLove77

Hey everyone, thanks for the concern. I had a great week with my girls at the house and they seemed to enjoy the summer day camp. I feel so adrift without them. 

I have been unable to follow through on cutting off contact with her or setting an ultimatum. I'm really having a hard time sifting through our conversations but her actions are still so distant from me. Her emotions seem to shift from day to day. I can tell there are feelings there but she speak to being so confused. 

The other day I drove the girls to a mall to do the exchange with her. She got stuck in the horrible traffic that I typically get stuck in and called to tell me where she was. During the call she got very upset a out the issues she still has a lot of anger about. Stuff I wrote about before. She kept thinking how I would react if I was sitting in that traffic with her, how was it alright to buy a vacation home so far from her family? I know my answer should have been "I'm sorry you feel that way". But I felt genuine remorse. I couldnt explain any of it away. I said I was very sorry and understood her pain but could only try to make it up with my actions from now. She said she wasnt mad at the present LL, but at her and I from a year ago. Mad at herself for taking it and mad at me for not valuing her. It was a vicious loop that made us both feel horrible. 

I know I had anger issues and have working on it as best as I can, and I can see her side of these issues but I know I was trying hard to do things for the family. In my anger I never directed it at her but at the situation. She took it very personally and I know it was passive aggressive. I'm simply stuck in this rut and feel terrible right now about my whole situation. 

I have the house listed very low, I will lose thousands but still not getting many showings. I'm living like a nomad and have no feeling of home. The antidepressants are helping but can't change some of these things. 

She's still coming down to the beach with her parents next week, I deeply enjoy time Keith her and simply can't turn from this. She has spoken to this being a time to try to reconnect. That's she's open but right now can't fully commit to anything with a full heart. I have to respect that and do with it what I will. Right now I want to try to get to a point where we can work on our past pains and mistakes. It may be a pipe dream but my regret is a powerful thing right now. I still feel intense sadness about her actions when she felt abandoned by me but I know I still love her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lostLove77

CEL - thank you for your posts. Your synopsis of the situation rang very clearly but I cannot get past my part in this situation either. I suppose I'm really good at putting myself in my own hell and staying there but I guess I'm not ready to grab that first rung to the ladder out. Your insight is appreciated. 

LW - glad you're here and happy you started a thread. I will be reading, not sure how much insight I have to give but I will be following. Just so numb right now it's hard to even think clearly. 

Moxy - I cannot tha I you enough. When I'm feeling lonely I read through your thread and your words here. I haven't gotten through your whole thread yet but there are parts that really break my heart for you and also hold up a mirror to me, for your feelings and my mistakes. I cannot stand it but I see some of my own actions in your H in how I treated my wife. Maybe I'm being too hard on myself but I cannot help but pick myself apart and feel I uncounsiously took advantage of her willingness to give over time. My pride got in the way of going to counseling. How could I be so obtuse?

Conrad - I thank you for your encouragement and being there the whole time through this. I can't believe how much you give yourself on this board. Thank you. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

Hi LL,

You sound in better spirits than before. That is good.

So, the extended family will all be together in the house that you are trying to sell?

Now is the summer when people dream of the home by the beach. You would think there would be more interest. Dämn Alan Greenspan, he's responsible for the troubles in your marriage. Bästard, how does he sleep at night.:lol:

The antidepressants maybe are helping hold yourself together. I can't understand the chemical approach myself but what do I know starting a TAM thread about my childhood.

You are approaching another watershed. Between the lines she is under pressure from her parents to stop her promiscuous self-destructive lifestyle and return to you. Bless them for trying.

You believe that you will deeply enjoy time with her and are willing to make an attempt to reconnect. This should mean hysterical bonding but she is telling you that you should not get your hopes up. The best scenario is that the grandparents watch the kids and you are allowed couple time. Do you have a strategy? Do you want to talk about problems? A real mood killer. Or do you want to try and just sweep her off her feet and into the sack.



> I still feel intense sadness about her actions when she felt abandoned by me but I know I still love her.


Does she feel sadness about her actions when she left you?

LL, I fear that you wife, who has filed for divorce for fear of losing custody, has realized her life is a mess. Her parents have pressed her to reconcile. Sadly your heart still sits in the frying pan. The onions have been browned, you can smell them through the antidepressants. For the moment oil only warm because she has turned the heat off for this diplomatic venture.

I am pessimistic. However, if you are determined to take this course. I can only recommend one thing. Do not let her sleep alone. Have you discussed sleeping arrangements? If she declines to sleep with you, what hope is there?

You cannot force her to have sex but if you cannot lie with her and at least try to make love, then what is there to reconcile? Why will the situation improve after a week celibacy. You are setting yourself up for a week of torture, I fear.

Maybe the others can suggest a strategy.


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## lostLove77

Walk, we did speak about sleeping. She sad she would be respectful and sleep in the girls room and I told her I didn't want her to sleep there, she said she was open. 

The plan is to spend time together while the GPS watch the girls. I'm unsure how much time, but that is the goal. She spoke about just trying to have a good time together, like you said trying to avoid mood killin stuff. 

I know I'm probably setting myself up but I want every opportunity.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Frostflower

LL, keep it light. Don’t push the physical. Sex should flow from a loving relationship. It doesn’t work the other way round.


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## lostLove77

Thanks Frost, completely agree.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CEL

I really don't have anything constructive to say. I am sorry you are at this point. I am sorry you have to go through this. I am glad you are in better spirits.

If the other man is in the picture I don't see progress being made. Please use a condom would be my safe advice. My hopes are with you. Although I may disagree with you I can't say I fount understand you are right the power of regret is very strong. My hopes are with you.


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## Conrad

Other choices could be made.

They're not easy - but seem simple from the outside.

Best of luck to you.

I fear you will need it.


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## ReGroup

Dislike.

LL, there can not be reconciliation until there is true remorse on her end.

And there won't be any type of remorse until you command respect from this woman.

There won't be any connection until she drops her men from her life.

That's the game.

You deviate from that course and it's going to lead to more hurt on your end.

She does not value you, so you must remove yourself so that she can get a glimpse of what life without you really means.

Many of us made those same mistakes, so folks like you wouldn't have to.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

Conrad said:


> Other choices could be made.
> 
> They're not easy - but seem simple from the outside.
> 
> Best of luck to you.
> 
> I fear you will need it.


LL,

Went to the garden with my daughters. The 15-year-old arrived first. We hadn't expected her elder sister, 18, but her swim practice was cancelled so she suddenly showed. She was all aflutter because a strange guy had cycled up along side her and started chatting her up.

She hasn't had a boyfriend yet but I know she is longing to enter the adult world of relationships. She was flattered that this guy was talking to her, although she must have heard before that you must beware of strange men on the street.

"I knew I was safe and could get away," she said.

She wanted to end the conversation when he asked her if she was married. However, she explained that she felt awkward being impolite since he had been so nice to start.

Her little sister, who is social wise beyond her years, groaned. We had a discussion about it as we walked in the nature reserve. My daughters excitement at having received masculine attention, shifted into more guarded general statements about harassment. We talked about why men did things that seemed unlikely to succeed in winning over a woman's affections.

I told them that women don't always judge these rationally. Otherwise, why how could one explain that bad men convicted of notorious crimes got letters from women who fell in love with them, based purely on newspapers stories about the vile criminal behavior.

It was important for females to choose mates carefully because they needed to have the father of their offspring there to help them survive. There had to be a balance between the overly aggressive and nice guy. I even put it to them that humans had developed marriage as a civilized response to social conflict, so that we could avoid people hitting each other in the head with stones to relieve sexual jealousy. 

"Bonobos do not form permanent monogamous sexual relationships with individual partners," replied my younger daughter, "and it is not certain that humans are capable of monogamy."

She must have gotten this from a TV show or some newspaper article.

I admitted that there is no guarantee of fidelity and monogamy. 

To make the whole discussion more relevant. I said that the guy on the bicycle had to be shut down quickly. My eldest was now sounding more like an angry young feminist, complaining about harassment. Her proposed line was "please leave me alone." Her sister and I agreed that this still implied that the harassing males had to the power to decide.

I told them that this would not be the first or last time they would deal with this problem.

My eldest is planning a trip with a friend and teammate to an island to stay with another teammate. I know that my daughter and the other girl have a crush on a guy whom they played with on a mixed team at a national competition. I know the guy he if a mature and honorable guy. I am not too worried about her hanging out with him.

Both of them cannot become his girlfriend. Who knows maybe he already has one. I droned on:

"Learning about love probably never comes pain free. Sometime you have a crush on somebody and they don't respond at first but after they think about it they discover they have feelings but maybe the first one has moved on. The two people have to have feelings at the same time. You need a little luck sometimes." 

I hope I helped my daughters with this conversation. My parents said nothing positive sympathetic or understanding about sex or girlfriend. My father was a psychiatrist and he felt awkward about the subject....

We ripped up the strawberries this year but there were few plants that survived and I pointed out the berries to my girls. There was a small completely white one. I mean without any hint of pink or red.

"It'll be sweet," I told her.

She ate it and was amazed, for she thought that only the red ones were sweet. We hadn't taken care of the plants. They got a lot of sun and little water so there was a concentration of sugar.

It's like that sometimes, you don't do anything and the fruit is good. Sometime you try and try, but the plants don't grow well. Hard to rip them out and start again, but putting it off is self deception when you know they've been exhausted.


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## LongWalk

ReGroup said:


> Dislike.
> 
> LL, there can not be reconciliation until there is true remorse on her end.
> 
> And there won't be any type of remorse until you command respect from this woman.
> 
> There won't be any connection until she drops her men from her life.
> 
> That's the game.
> 
> You deviate from that course and it's going to lead to more hurt on your end.
> 
> She does not value you, so you must remove yourself so that she can get a glimpse of what life without you really means.
> 
> Many of us made those same mistakes, so folks like you wouldn't have to.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


ReGroup, do you know of any serial cheaters returning to their husbands for successful reconciliation?


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## ReGroup

LongWalk said:


> ReGroup, do you know of any serial cheaters returning to their husbands for successful reconciliation?


"Successful" - not a one.

She's doing him a great favor but he's too emotionally sucked in to see it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

Frostflower said:


> Hi Lost and welcome. Are you seeing a counsellor to help you through this?
> 
> Right now, you wife has the best of two worlds. She has the single life she desired, but she also has ‘her everything’. She says she doesn’t want a relationship, but that is exactly what she has. She is not getting a true picture of what life without you would be like. If you keep this up, you will not move in any direction and you run the risk of hearing her one day say that she wants a divorce and/or has met someone else. And it will be a huge shock for you. Hard as it is, you need to start detaching. Stop talking and texting unless it has to do with the kids. Stop staying overnight. Go to a hotel and pick the kids up again in the morning.
> 
> I know this sounds harsh, but you need to give her what she thinks she needs.
> 
> I suggest you read The 180. You can search this site for it or just google it. It is a series of strategies that will help you to grow stronger so that you can face whatever comes your way.


LL, Frostflower was the first person to post on your thread. What she wrote then was spot on. You listened but did not understand her advice at that point. Later you listened and understood but only partially followed this strategy. And now your 180 has crumbled without achieving its primary aim – your wellbeing, your preservation as a human being.

You must put father and income earner ahead of lover. Your desire to be a lover is destroying the healthy parts of your life.

The only justification for the risky step you are now taking would be that she wrote letters of NC to all her lovers in writing on her phone. You would click send with her watching. After that she would change numbers. The sexting number needs to be disconnected.

re: NC

You already know what the letters say:

Dear POSOM1,

I am writing to request that you cease connecting me completely. I am reconciling with my husband to work on our marriage and ending all relationships that are harmful it.

Please delete my contact details from your telephone and email. If you contact me I will immediately inform my husband. If it continues, I will seek a court order.

Sincerely yours,

LL's wife full name

It would, LL, be horrible if POSOMxyz messaged your wife during the week of reconnection. It could even just be a new guy whom she met on a dating site.



> Calvin Coldditch – "Hey, babe, are we going on that date we talked about this week or what?"
> 
> Your wife – Sorry I am at the beach. Talk when I get back next week.
> 
> Coldditch – Cool, where are you Hawaii?
> 
> Your wife – Naw, nothing so cool, just family on the coast. Kids and sand buckets, nothing exciting.
> 
> Coldditch – Where is this beautiful place?
> 
> Your wife – Dream house town
> 
> Coldditch – Nice:smthumbup: Heard it's fine. Renting?
> 
> Your wife – No, it's a family place. Giving my parents a chance to be with the girls. Going to sell it.
> 
> Coldditch –  before I got chance to see you body surf. Maybe, I should buy it, haha. How much do you want for it? Are you doing house showings now? I have the entire week off. Would like to check out your house
> 
> And so on.


Of course if you started the holiday by asking to hold her phone for the week, she'd complain that you were controlling. 

LL, at first I did not want to bring up possible negative consequences of this week. After all it could be a euphoric reconnection which requires only our moral support and no negative vibes. However – and please give this careful consideration – your wife's priorities this week maybe:

1) To get rid of the pressure from her parents. Her plan may be to tell her parents that she tried but feels nothing for you. 

2) She may desire to strengthen her position financially at your expense, using your reconnection time as a negotiating squeeze play.

It would be the cruelest of all if she even engaged in sexual relations without love to incapacitate your self defenses. I realize that I am making her sound like a terrible person. That is not my conclusion. The self degradation that she has experienced has now weakened her moral character, so that she is not the person to whom you were committed.

Let us speculate that she is almost like the victim of a traumatic series of events. She is struggling to survive a very fvcked up situation. Your financial and emotional wellbeing is low on the list of priorities. Even your daughters have been push aside as she searches for what she now realizes is an elusive creature: the man who is exciting, good in bed, loves her, wants to be a great step dad, has money, is unattached and is nice. 

So far the only stable "LTR" is with a dope smoking, carpenter dude who can shred the guitar better than 3 out of 5 YouTube covers with less than 13 views.

LL, above all else laugh. For this week of trial, you must laugh and smile at everything. Everything that tears at your heart you must convert it to laugh and a grin. Make your parents-in-law weep inside because you are great SIL. When it's time to go to bed and you fear your wife is not going to share a bed, get psyched to laugh and smile, don't let her send you off with your tail between your legs. At all time's when things get hard take the plane straight up to 50,000 feet.

Sit and talk to your parents-in-law about things in their lives that you didn't know about. Come up with some crazy activity to escape the pressure of "open to reconnection".


----------



## CEL

LL your last post the last paragraph shows progress. You want your wife back and you want to feel better but at the moment you are like a person pushing the medicine away because it tastes bad. I hope no matter what happens over this week you decide to change your plan whether that be you get what you want or finally decide to follow the advice of everyone who has been talking to you. The advice we give has SAVED marriages as well as healed those people who had no hope of a save. Good luck.


----------



## somethingnewmaybe

I swear, the advice in this thread is amazing. I struggled at R and thought I was a failure if I left no stone unturned before I realized it was all a sham. Only mine DID get intimate with me, yet a week later was ready when I said I can't do it anymore. I've always said that when you understand a person, the frustration dissipates. Understanding the psychology of their behavior helps you pick a plan that allows you to go around the forest of BS rather than through it (which is where she is currently camping).

I've walked away, not because I don't love my wife, but because her actions indicate she has zero intentions of R. It's not even about pride, it's just about doing what's right for me...the person that nobody else is looking out for right now.


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## LongWalk

LL has a big heart. His wife knows that. His parents-in-law know it. His wife knows it. She also knows she doesn't cut the mustard in many respects. That's why keeps latching on, hoping that his qualities will lift her out of, as Moxy put it, the slime.

But how can she get out of the slime if she keeps playing in it?

Maybe if she gives LL some spiel about taking reconnection slowly, he can get to take out her telephone and compose some NC messages to all those PosOM. With every click of goodbye-don't-contact-me-anymore, that should speed up the reconnection process if one is ever going take place.


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## lostLove77

Hi everyone,
Thanks for the compliment Walk. Going to the lawyer this morning. I cannot believe it. I know I look the fool, but I will update as I can. I'm sure I'll vent and you all can say "told you so" but it does help to post here.


----------



## Chuck71

LL we all were where you are now....best of luck today


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## LongWalk

LL, even if you go for the week at the beach – is it still on? – by going to the lawyers you will make things better. Inside yourself you will have something to hold on to. You do not need to tell her that you are going to protect yourself. You need to keep this shield invisible at this point. Otherwise, she will go round it to get at your heart.

If she opened up her heart to you that would be another matter, but she is only open to the idea of maybe being open. That is worthless. I stumbled upon a very old thread with just a couple of posts. It is a different situation to yours in many respects. However, it illustrates the difficulty of rescuing a marriage once exclusivity has cause a loss of love and respect. I will clip and paste.


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## LongWalk

LL, even if you go for the week at the beach – is it still on? – by going to the lawyers you will make things better. Inside yourself you will have something to hold on to. You do not need to tell her that you are going to protect yourself. You need to keep this shield invisible at this point. Otherwise, she will go round it to get at your heart.

If she opened up her heart to you that would be another matter, but she is only open to the idea of maybe being open. That is worthless. I stumbled upon a very old thread with just a couple of posts. It is a different situation to yours in many respects. However, it illustrates the difficulty of rescuing a marriage once exclusivity has cause a loss of love and respect. I will clip and paste.


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## LongWalk

Originally Posted by LongWalk
Hi ReGroup,

I am going to read your thread which I discovered via LostLove. Below is a single post for 4 years ago by a woman who had drifted apart from her husband after they got into swinging.

Although LostLove's wife is a serial cheater I wonder if there is a similarity. This is not a moralizing statement but an observation: once a woman has sexual relations outside of long term relationship, it is difficult to recover the old relationship even if there is nostalgia and security.

Women want to feel a particular way. Call it possessed for lack of a better word. Once that boundary is violated then only some real shakeup that reestablishes the masculinity of the BS can make something new.

This could be economic collapse. The ex finding a new woman, thus creating jealousy. But whatever the dynamic, there has to be something to move liminal brain to create attraction. Do you agree?

LL is probably going to suffer horribly. He is not unintelligent, he simply emotionally unable to accept reality.



> Quote:
> I am a 30 year old female and I have been married to my high school sweetheart for 7 years. We have been together for 15 years, though. We have two daughters, ages 6 and 2. We have had our share of problems for many years. When its good its really good, but when its bad, its really really bad. Its been really bad for about 3 years now. I consider us to be each others kryptonite. We are AMAZING people when we are away from each other. It just seems that we always have to be on opposite ends of the spectrum. If he is happy, I have to be pissed about something stupid, and vice versa.
> 
> I guess you could say that it all started with us wanting to spice up our sex life. We decided to dabble in the swinging scene. I'm not really sure if either one of us was really wanting to do it, but we did. The end result was that we both ended up with hurt feelings and a feeling of betrayal. We have yet to deal with those feelings, and I don't think that I want to. I have real feelings of shame and embarassment that my husband sees me in that light. I can't shake the fact that what we did was just not right. There are some marriages that can handle that kind of thing, but I was kidding myself to even think that ours could survive that.
> 
> Aside from all of that mess, there really is no respect on either end. We both treat each other pretty bad for the most part and always have. We are critical, and just plain mean sometimes. I know that I am painting an awful picture here, but I'm sick of sugar coating the problems.
> 
> Well, a month ago I decided to leave. I packed up and went to my parents house, and he is absolutely FLOORED. He didn't even see this coming. When I tell him that I just don't love him anymore, he admits that he feels the same but thinks that we need to "learn" to love one another again. His point is that we should do it for the kids. That I am being selfish that I don't want my kids to witness the way that we treat each other. I feel that it is better for them to come from a broken home than to live in one and be subjected to all of this crap.
> 
> It just seems so much easier to move on. I feel like we just got together SO young and that we never really matured together. Am I being selfish to want to be happy and to feel like there has to be something better?


LongWalk, 

I like your contribution to the site. 

I completely agree with you.

Part of a woman's psyche when she's done with a man is: *"If I don't want him - why would anyone else? I don't see the value that he brings - why would anyone else?"*

They actually believe it. And it's a serious miscalculation.

When a man a rebuilds himself and strikes enough nerve to believe in himself - look out.

It's not documented on my thread but guess who jumped in the sack with me earlier this year when she "assumed" I was seeing someone?

So yes, Human Nature.

You'll notice on my thread the work we're doing on Mrs. RG and the subconcious attraction that is being built up.

LL has to change his approach.

Like Conrad says: friction = attraction. doormat = boring

sythetic nails it on a certain thread about a woman's approach: 

Good question. The majority of men who bounce from this ordeal end up feeling 'superior' to the person they used to be. This has consequences:

- They no longer feel obligated to continue their previous life-path
- They don't find their walkaway wives as appealing and as attractive as before

On the other hand, unless severe abuse was involved, the walkaway wife almost always ends up questioning her choices. This is natural as most of them employ manic psychological tactics in the process of convincing themselves of leaving/cheating. Manic decisions tend to carry rewards that are not consistent with the manic hopes they were based on. This is the reason most humans don't find life as rewarding as it should be. We all have manic tendencies. 

Eventually what happens is, the walkaway wife will end up having to make a decision:

1. Continue making more manic decisions to justify the initial one
2. Balance her personality

Most of them go with the first choice because their egos have a significant presence. Eventually they find themselves yearning for "something else". Until they switch to the 2nd choice, they remain quite lost.

Note: Clearly LL's wife has gotten closer to this point because the pain caused by her self destructive behavior has reached a high point. However, LL is not yet ready to deal with from a position of strength. However, he may surprise us. He must resolutely and without begging or pleading demand a stop to her life without boundaries. He must has a means of enforcing this commitment. Passwords, telephone, etc. 

If he can say end all contact with other men until we are divorced, once, there could be at least some hope. If she refuses, he must go dark on her in all matters other than the welfare of their daughters and divorce settlement.

The 'left-behind' men who truly allow themselves to heal and reach a significant level of self-awareness tend to fare much better. By now, their definition of attraction has changed and they feel much more attractive than before. This doesn't bode well for the walkaway wife if she decides to reintroduce herself into the man's life as an attractive option. This is the reason many divorced people end up questioning their attraction to the ex-spouse in the first place. Their definition of 'attractive' changes.

Overall, healing and self-awareness are both aspects of growth, and growth can be defined as life's ultimate virtue.


----------



## catcalls

lostLove77 said:


> Hey everyone, thanks for the concern. I had a great week with my girls at the house and they seemed to enjoy the summer day camp. I feel so adrift without them.
> 
> I have been unable to follow through on cutting off contact with her or setting an ultimatum. I'm really having a hard time sifting through our conversations but her actions are still so distant from me. Her emotions seem to shift from day to day. I can tell there are feelings there but she speak to being so confused.
> 
> The other day I drove the girls to a mall to do the exchange with her. She got stuck in the horrible traffic that I typically get stuck in and called to tell me where she was. During the call she got very upset a out the issues she still has a lot of anger about. Stuff I wrote about before. She kept thinking how I would react if I was sitting in that traffic with her, how was it alright to buy a vacation home so far from her family? I know my answer should have been "I'm sorry you feel that way". But I felt genuine remorse. I couldnt explain any of it away. I said I was very sorry and understood her pain but could only try to make it up with my actions from now. She said she wasnt mad at the present LL, but at her and I from a year ago. Mad at herself for taking it and mad at me for not valuing her. It was a vicious loop that made us both feel horrible.
> 
> I know I had anger issues and have working on it as best as I can, and I can see her side of these issues but I know I was trying hard to do things for the family. In my anger I never directed it at her but at the situation. She took it very personally and I know it was passive aggressive. I'm simply stuck in this rut and feel terrible right now about my whole situation.
> 
> I have the house listed very low, I will lose thousands but still not getting many showings. I'm living like a nomad and have no feeling of home. The antidepressants are helping but can't change some of these things.
> 
> She's still coming down to the beach with her parents next week, I deeply enjoy time Keith her and simply can't turn from this. She has spoken to this being a time to try to reconnect. That's she's open but right now can't fully commit to anything with a full heart. I have to respect that and do with it what I will. Right now I want to try to get to a point where we can work on our past pains and mistakes. It may be a pipe dream but my regret is a powerful thing right now. I still feel intense sadness about her actions when she felt abandoned by me but I know I still love her.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I dont believe her at all. all this anger whilst not necessarily fake has just been summoned to make you feel guilty.

if this emotion is genuine she would be expressing anger more frequently and more forcefully all the time. she was happy cavorting around and dating other men as long as you were moping and waiting for her.

the moment you demanded respect and accountability, she is feeling uncomfortable. and in what i suspect is a pattern in your marriage any time she feels unhappy or bothered, she immediately throws it back at you and you by force of habit (or your general nature) feel guilty and thaw.

there is nothing too egregious or cruel about what you have done wrong in your marriage. If she was so unhappy or so disagreeable to your decisions, it is important that she learns how to communicate. merely blaming you is not the answer

stop talking and take action to protect yourself.


----------



## lostLove77

Cat - I honestly think our issues could be worked through, I know our communication is better than its ever been but I'm at my breaking point with this distance between us. 

I guess a question I keep coming to is what qualifies as cheating when separated? She's expressed remorse over the EA during our time together but considers anything during the separation as her business. The remorse seems a bit limited, she doesn't want to work on any of it. 

This time of discovery for her is something she feels she needs but the collateral damage is so high. 

Meeting with the lawyer went well, I loved her. No BS. She suggested not to do much until mid august unless I get any more papers from them or the home sells. If mid August comes ill have to look at renting a place back home and simply take the financial hi on my savings to cover the cost of the rental. 

LW - the week is still on. I will try to be as light and fun as possible. I have hopes but no longer have expectations from her. 

I pray this house sells and I can settle into my own place with my girls. I love that my family supports me but I simply don't have any roots right now. I feel like I really want to take action for myself but am road locked by this. The frustration is worse than dealing with her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

lostLove77 said:


> Cat - I honestly think our issues could be worked through, I know our communication is better than its ever been but I'm at my breaking point with this distance between us.
> 
> I guess a question I keep coming to is what qualifies as cheating when separated? She's expressed remorse over the EA during our time together but considers anything during the separation as her business. The remorse seems a bit limited, she doesn't want to work on any of it.
> 
> This time of discovery for her is something she feels she needs but the collateral damage is so high.
> 
> Meeting with the lawyer went well, I loved her. No BS. She suggested not to do much until mid august unless I get any more papers from them or the home sells. If mid August comes ill have to look at renting a place back home and simply take the financial hi on my savings to cover the cost of the rental.
> 
> LW - the week is still on. I will try to be as light and fun as possible. I have hopes but no longer have expectations from her.
> 
> I pray this house sells and I can settle into my own place with my girls. I love that my family supports me but I simply don't have any roots right now. I feel like I really want to take action for myself but am road locked by this. The frustration is worse than dealing with her.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I've got one more house than I need also.

It sucks.

Hopefully, someone will fall in love with it this month.


----------



## Frostflower

lostLove77 said:


> Cat - I honestly think our issues could be worked through, I know our communication is better than its ever been but I'm at my breaking point with this distance between us.
> 
> I guess a question I keep coming to is what qualifies as cheating when separated? She's expressed remorse over the EA during our time together but considers anything during the separation as her business. The remorse seems a bit limited, she doesn't want to work on any of it.
> 
> This time of discovery for her is something she feels she needs but the collateral damage is so high.
> 
> Meeting with the lawyer went well, I loved her. No BS. She suggested not to do much until mid august unless I get any more papers from them or the home sells. If mid August comes ill have to look at renting a place back home and simply take the financial hi on my savings to cover the cost of the rental.
> 
> LW - the week is still on. I will try to be as light and fun as possible. I have hopes but no longer have expectations from her.
> 
> I pray this house sells and I can settle into my own place with my girls. I love that my family supports me but I simply don't have any roots right now. I feel like I really want to take action for myself but am road locked by this. The frustration is worse than dealing with her.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not wanting to work on it may be a survival mechanism. My H is the same. Its the past. Its over. It took me a while to realize that it is painful for him to discuss what happened, how he hurt me. His way of dealing is to compartmentalize it and lock the compartment. 

What they don’t realize is that it is not the past for us. We live it every day, either consciously when triggered or subconsciously. It is always there.

Good luck with the house, Lost. I hope someone snaps it up soon.


----------



## Conrad

Frostflower said:


> Not wanting to work on it may be a survival mechanism. My H is the same. Its the past. Its over. It took me a while to realize that it is painful for him to discuss what happened, how he hurt me. His way of dealing is to compartmentalize it and lock the compartment.
> 
> What they don’t realize is that it is not the past for us. We live it every day, either consciously when triggered or subconsciously. It is always there.
> 
> Good luck with the house, Lost. I hope someone snaps it up soon.


I had a rather pointed discussion yesterday with someone who has insisted we not dredge up the past - while she was dredging up the past.

I was not ok with that.


----------



## Frostflower

Conrad said:


> I had a rather pointed discussion yesterday with someone who has insisted we not dredge up the past - while she was dredging up the past.
> 
> I was not ok with that.


I’m sure you told her that


----------



## LongWalk

LostLove, do you want to save your marriage?


----------



## CEL

So I was talking to my girl about your thread and she helped me get some perspective and I wanted to share it with you not sure if it will help you or not but figured I would share with you anyway 

1. She fell out of love with you whether due to the EA or just your behavior this is just a fact. Although you still have romantic feeling for her she no longer feels that way about you.

2. She still has friendship feelings for you but not those passion feelings somewhere she lost that.

3. To a large degree you are the only one holding onto this marriage she does not want to be in it she just does not want to call it. I think part of the reason is she is a coward and that she also knows it would hurt you more. Thereby making her feel bad and making the coparenting thing harder on her.

4. She is wiling to give you a chance but all this means is she is okay with dating you, basically you are on the same footing as her new dates.

5. You are separated this means that legally she can screw anyone she wants and it is NOT cheating. She has agreed to NO BOUNDARIES you want her to stop seeing others but really she does not want to and she has NO reason to do what you want. After all you are just a friend at this point.

6. She has friend zoned you. FRIEND ZONE - (Your Favorite Martian music video) - YouTube Basically you are chasing after a girl who just does not feel that way about you. Instead she is using you for her emotional needs but she has no passion for you. This happens all the time where people abuse a friendship because that person has feelings for them so they get all kinds of perks at the persons expense.


Your main problem is that you still love her but she does not love you in that way. You need to decide if you can continue to just DATE her with the expectation that since you are friend zoned she will most likely not get those feeling back. After all she has seen what you can do while every new guy is an adventure, you just cannot compete with that. She is throwing you a bone that she is willing to let you try but this is more for you then her. She just is not that into you. So at this point the ball is in your court she has no interest in getting back with you not really. I would say your only chance is to go 180 and cut this friendship out hopefully "slim hope" she will come around but while you continue to give she has no reason to change. Do the weekend and if nothing significant changes then I would go 180 as what you are doing is throwing pebbles at the Great Wall expecting it to fall. Good luck we all wish you the best and hope that you DO get what you want.


----------



## LongWalk

Agree with CEL's girlfriend:iagree:

Although we can never know the future, you have one clear opportunity to change her impression of you. You must be a no show at the week's holiday.

I think it will be too little, too late, but it is still better than continuing down the lonely barren path that you have been on for nearly year, if you count the months before the separation.

A week of painful fake cheerfulness will make everything worse. It will extinguish whatever tiny chances of R that still exist. After week of living together without remorse or intimacy will make you feel as if you are breathing in a primitive lead smelter. I would be surprised if you can last a week.

Instead of subjecting yourself (and your daughters) to this, you must vanish without explanation.

Where are the girls now? Are they with you? If so, when everyone arrives greet your parents-in-law with appropriate affection. Do not give your wife a hug. Offer her zero warmth. Have the girls show them where they are to sleep. Meanwhile slip out the door and drive off. Do not give any forewarning.

They will eventually start calling and texting. Do not reply to any of it. Your PIL will be asking your wife what is wrong. But all of them will understand that you have reached your limit. Let them stay in the house for the week. If they leave, so be it. You must go dark. This will give your wife an opportunity to consider life without you.

From this point on you should do what ReGroup has done. He has changed his walk away cheating wife's song. It took a lot of work but he had a huge amount of help. That help is probably waiting in the wings for you now, hoping that you will be decisive.

If opting out of the week of torture is bad idea, somebody Conrad, CEL or GP will speak up and explain why.


----------



## GutPunch

If it causes you pain, don't do it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LongWalk

Moxy, where are you?


----------



## Frostflower

LongWalk said:


> Agree with CEL's girlfriend:iagree:
> 
> Although we can never know the future, you have one clear opportunity to change her impression of you. You must be a no show at the week's holiday.
> 
> I think it will be too little, too late, but it is still better than continuing down the lonely barren path that you have been on for nearly year, if you count the months before the separation.
> 
> A week of painful fake cheerfulness will make everything worse. It will extinguish whatever tiny chances of R that still exist. After week of living together without remorse or intimacy will make you feel as if you are breathing in a primitive lead smelter. I would be surprised if you can last a week.
> 
> Instead of subjecting yourself (and your daughters) to this, you must vanish without explanation.
> 
> Where are the girls now? Are they with you? If so, when everyone arrives greet your parents-in-law with appropriate affection. Do not give your wife a hug. Offer her zero warmth. Have the girls show them where they are to sleep. Meanwhile slip out the door and drive off. Do not give any forewarning.
> 
> They will eventually start calling and texting. Do not reply to any of it. Your PIL will be asking your wife what is wrong. But all of them will understand that you have reached your limit. Let them stay in the house for the week. If they leave, so be it. You must go dark. This will give your wife an opportunity to consider life without you.
> 
> From this point on you should do what ReGroup has done. He has changed his walk away cheating wife's song. It took a lot of work but he had a huge amount of help. That help is probably waiting in the wings for you now, hoping that you will be decisive.
> 
> If opting out of the week of torture is bad idea, somebody Conrad, CEL or GP will speak up and explain why.


This would be a very cruel thing to do to his daughters who are doubtless looking forward to the week. To have their father walk out on them.....unbelievably cruel.


----------



## LongWalk

Frostflower said:


> This would be a very cruel thing to do to his daughters who are doubtless looking forward to the week. To have their father walk out on them.....unbelievably cruel.


Good point. I thought about that. Do you think this week will improve the chances of R?

Will LL come out of this in good shape as a parent?


----------



## Frostflower

LongWalk said:


> Good point. I thought about that. Do you think this week will improve the chances of R?
> 
> 
> I don’t know. But if he doesn’t do it, neither will he.
> 
> Will LL come out of this in good shape as a parent?


He will definitely not come out in good shape as a parent if he walks out on his kids. The time to decide whether or not to go is before he goes, not after. His girls are 3 and 6. Imagine their reaction if Daddy disappears.

You suggest this move to ‘make an impression’ on his wife. I can tell you what impression it would have made on me if my husband had disappeared on our kids when they were little. It was bad enough when they were grown.


----------



## LongWalk

FF, what should he do?


----------



## Chuck71

LL should show up on the first day, bright and early

play with his children and relish every second

that night, after the kids are asleep.....gather every one around

inform W he is through with being runner up to any one

walk out the door and do not say a freaking word

do not answer any ?s, just leave


----------



## Conrad

Frost,

It's clearly a #3 that he never should have agreed to do in the first place.

Yet, he feels compelled to continue hurting himself.

So, now that the children are on board for this and are excited about it, there's no way to "not do it"

Lost is not taking good care of himself.

But, only one person can change that.


----------



## Chaparral

God how how I wish you had posted in the infidelity section.

An EA is adultery. From the looks of it, I'm still in May's postings, she has probably been cheating long before you got the not in love speech.

You have gotten a lot of good advice. None of this is your fault. She will find fault with you because low moral cheaters do that. Its just blameshifting. The other thing they do is lie.

I noticed lie after lie through the first five months.

The one thing I can't believe you or anyone else believes is that she hasn't been physical with all these guys. 

In two years I haven't seen a worse case of betrayal or a poster in worse denial.

If she had to pick you or her ea partner on who to save from a burning wreck, you would be toast.


----------



## LongWalk

Chaparral, he pins her down at one point. So, it is clear that several have been physical relationships. LL, has been uncertain of what information to share, understandably since is disturbs him to write it and for us to read it. Between the lines he has identified 4 or 5 guys. POSOM1 and 3 have been the deepest with whom she became emotionally involved.

It would be good for LL to write up a list. Their names, approximate dates. It seems to be Facebook that has been a major source of information. His daughters may have told him things. I have, if I am not confusing his thread with someone elses, a recollection that there was a guy named Bryan who helped his daughters find Easter eggs. (LL, correct me if I am wrong about this).

The week together in the ill-fated seaside home is conceived of as a reconnect opportunity for LL and his WW. However, to LL's credit he admits that she is "distant". So what is the point of the week together, except to give her a chance to show her parents that she tried to save their marriage. Her parents are making an extraordinary effort to steer their daughter to a sane lifestyle, but they cannot rekindle her libido towards the man who has been replaced repeatedly.

The chances of reconciliation are poor and they will worse after a week of living together without intimacy.

The only rational solution is hard 180, cutting off her access to LL's emotional generosity. This will force her contemplate life without him. During this period of uncertainty, LL would have an opportunity to follow the path or ReGroup and others who have changed the dynamics of their dysfunctional relationships. The help is here for him.

LL also has read all of Moxy's journal: no mean feat. She is source of inspiration, for although Moxy is having trouble seeing divorce through, she would not attempt reconciliation without principle, i.e., WH must admit faults and commit to correcting them. Moreover, words must be backed up by action. LL, has not been able to hold his wife to account yet.... but he will for there is no other path.

LL,

Would you still be pining for your wife if you did not have your two daughters to consider?


----------



## LongWalk

Chuck71 said:


> LL should show up on the first day, bright and early
> 
> play with his children and relish every second
> 
> that night, after the kids are asleep.....gather every one around
> 
> inform W he is through with being runner up to any one
> 
> walk out the door and do not say a freaking word
> 
> do not answer any ?s, just leave


He should have a key to the house that she lives in. Drive straight there. He should go to computer and if cannot access it, he could open it up, take out the hard disk and copy it. They are not divorced yet so that home and property are his. Or...?

By going through the hard disk he will discover the extent of her infidelity. And although it will be painful, go through her underwear drawer to see how much is completely unfamiliar to you but has been removed by other men. That will hurt but you need to get mad in order to get the strength to 180.

If your wife comes round after several months of dealing with the new LL, you can examine R. Right now she is not R material.

What do you say, Chuck?


----------



## Frostflower

Conrad said:


> Frost,
> 
> It's clearly a #3 that he never should have agreed to do in the first place.
> 
> Yet, he feels compelled to continue hurting himself.
> 
> So, now that the children are on board for this and are excited about it, there's no way to "not do it"
> 
> Lost is not taking good care of himself.
> 
> But, only one person can change that.


I completely agree, Conrad. This is something he has to do, for his daughters. The week is not about him or his marriage. It is about his girls.

Longwalk asked me what should Script do. He should go, stick it out. Enjoy his girls. Be civil to his wife so as not to ruin it for the kids. He should not engage his wife about their relationship. If she brings it up, he should listen. He should remain at 5,000 feet (I’m terrible at numbers. Did I get that right?) and observe. 

This week, forced closeness with the kids and the in-laws along, cannot be about fixing the marriage. Whatever the intent was, there are too many other people. How can you go off, talk intensely, bring up all kinds of emotion, likely including al lot of anger.....then go back and smile during a family dinner, with the in-laws watching and hoping the entire time? If they wanted a week to really talk, work on things and possibly begin to reconnect, it needed to be a week away from everyone else where they could focus on each other and their relationship.

This week won’t be easy. But it will give Script a chance to observe his wife at close range. He may learn a lot.

I know some here are pushing physical intimacy. That would be the worse thing that could happen. As I said before, you don’t build a lasting relationship based on sex. The relationship needs to come first.


----------



## Frostflower

LongWalk said:


> He should have a key to the house that she lives in. Drive straight there. He should go to computer and if cannot access it, he could open it up, take out the hard disk and copy it. They are not divorced yet so that home and property are his. Or...?
> 
> By going through the hard disk he will discover the extent of her infidelity. And although it will be painful, go through her underwear drawer to see how much is completely unfamiliar to you but has been removed by other men. That will hurt but you need to get mad in order to get the strength to 180.
> 
> If your wife comes round after several months of dealing with the new LL, you can examine R. Right now she is not R material.
> 
> What do you say, Chuck?


Oh my goodness.

What difference does ‘the extent of her infidelity’ make? He knows she has been unfaithful. He knows there has been more than one man, sexually or not. Why is it necessary to put himself through this and in such a clandestine way? 

Go through her underwear drawer? Really??


----------



## happyman64

LL,

I read your whole thread today.

All I can say is Wow!

Between your wife's lying and cheating to your self flagellation I truly wish their are some words of encouragement I could offer you.

But it only would fall on deaf ears.

Conrad, FF, LW, Moxy and so many others have already offered so much solid advice for months now.

All I will say is I admire the love you have for this woman and your children. But I think your love is very sick and unhealthy for you.

Your wife brings up the past not only out of guilt but as a defense mechanism.

She will never get to the root of her issues. Nor does she want to no matter what she tells you. Just look at her months of lies and cheating.

You can take all the blame for past issues in your marriage. But my friend if she really loved you and truly values your family that you have together you would be under the same roof, in counseling, not dating/sleeping with other people, trying to fix your marriage.

It takes two to fix a marriage. Not one.

Stop accepting her table scraps, because if you don't you will slowly die of starvation on so many levels.

We all see the signs but why don't you?

Your family is in my prayers.

HM64


----------



## Chaparral

Actually I don't see where he is even getting scraps.

I have no doubt this was physical a long time ago, I would bet well before the separation started. All her actions point to that.

Blaming the spouse is what cheaters do. It salves their conscience. About 25% of women are cheaters, its their nature and not their spouses fault. The not being their for them emotionally, the supposed hurts, and faults of the husband are all bs. Her wishes to go to counseling and then bailing was typical.

The bad news, there was never but a 15% chance for you to reconcile with your wife since she is the one that cheated. Mulitiple , serial cheating, pretty much takes that down to nothing since you will never get over that.

The good news is that there is only a 3% chance her and her affair partner can have a long term relationship.


----------



## Frostflower

Chaparral said:


> Actually I don't see where he is even getting scraps.
> 
> I have no doubt this was physical a long time ago, I would bet well before the separation started. All her actions point to that.
> 
> Blaming the spouse is what cheaters do. It salves their conscience. About 25% of women are cheaters, its their nature and not their spouses fault. The not being their for them emotionally, the supposed hurts, and faults of the husband are all bs. Her wishes to go to counseling and then bailing was typical.
> 
> The bad news, there was never but a 15% chance for you to reconcile with your wife since she is the one that cheated. Mulitiple , serial cheating, pretty much takes that down to nothing since you will never get over that.
> 
> The good news is that there is only a 3% chance her and her affair partner can have a long term relationship.


Okay, I don’t want to go off on a tangent, but 25% of women are cheaters....that is one on four of us. Even if that were true, its ‘our nature’??? So, of every hundred baby girls who are born this year, 25 of them will cheat on their spouses. The ‘cheater’s nature......do only 25% of us have it or do we all have it but the good news is that only a quarter of us will act on it? 

I have never cheated on my H, but if all women are cheaters by nature, does that make me a ticking **** bomb?

I’d like to hear the statistics on males along with the sources.....and hopefully before someone accuses you of misogyny.


----------



## LongWalk

FF, 

Promoting mysogny is not my aim. I want to guard against it in my own thinking. If a man frequents TAM and sticks to male threads, railing at women, he will not gain balanced insight. On ReGroup's thread everyone including the experienced male posters respect Mavash immensely. Her presence raises the quality of advice to a very high level. She makes someone strong, like Conrad, exert themselves to think out of the box.

Don't scoff at the underwear. Women spend much more time and money thinking about how they clothe the parts of their bodies that men desire. This is very important. When a woman goes on a business trip with sexy underwear that is a negative signal for her marriage.

Quote from RG's thread:
They are addicted to infatuation. They show all the hallmarks of addiction... It allows them to forget about their problems and it makes them feel fantastic. They continue to involve themselves in EAs and PAs, despite the fact the it destroys any real, worthwhile relationships they might have had.[/QUOTE]

This is why LL's wife is uninterested in him.

re:


> Okay, I don’t want to go off on a tangent, but 25% of women are cheaters....that is one on four of us. Even if that were true, its ‘our nature’??? So, of every hundred baby girls who are born this year, 25 of them will cheat on their spouses. The ‘cheater’s nature......do only 25% of us have it or do we all have it but the good news is that only a quarter of us will act on it?
> 
> I have never cheated on my H, but if all women are cheaters by nature, does that make me a ticking **** bomb?


You are not going off on a tangent at all. The question you ask is highly relevant. **** Sapiens are monogamous primarily because of social pressure, cultural norms and laws. If we were allowed to indulge our desires to swap partners, men would have harems and women would change partners and/or sneak in quickies when their regular mate was distracted.

In several European countries over 50% of children are born out of wedlock. The percentage has risen dramatically over the past 10 years. The mere fact that so many people decline to marry is hard evidence that one or both partners are ready to walk out the door. The institution of marriage is not coping with Facebook, no fault divorce, gender equality in the workplace. So, no one should be in least surprised that infidelity is common place.

Whether 25% of men or women are cheating may be debated but it is certain that the correct number is not 1%.

Whether or not you are a ticking adulterous bomb is not statistically significant.



> The bad news, there was never but a 15% chance for you to reconcile with your wife since she is the one that cheated. Mulitiple , serial cheating, pretty much takes that down to nothing since you will never get over that.
> 
> The good news is that there is only a 3% chance her and her affair partner can have a long term relationship.


Chaparral, I have asked LL whether her PAs would be an impediment to reconciliation, he has had trouble answering that. However, it is clear that it bothers him. Even if one accepts that separated spouses are free to start new sexual relations, for the left behind partner there cannot be most difference at emotional level. 

It is not good news that LL's wife is going to have trouble establishing a new stable long term relationship. It may give LL pleasure to see her cast off by a series of men. She may increasingly pair up with partners of lower socioeconomic status and men who have problems because that will be what she can draw.

That will be horrible for his children.

LL, sorry to keep harping on this point, but does *POSOM1 have a criminal record*. You wrote at one point that he smokes weed. He went around accusing your wife of infidelity, threatening her. Should he be around your children? Who were all the other guys?

Your wife walked away from your marriage after getting drunk in the casino. She has not been able to hold job. Just how bad is her life now? Does she smoke grass, too, now?


----------



## Frostflower

LongWalk said:


> FF,
> 
> Promoting mysogny is not my aim. I want to guard against it in my own thinking. If a man frequents TAM and sticks to male threads, railing at women, he will not gain balanced insight. On ReGroup's thread everyone including the experienced male posters respect Mavash immensely. Her presence raises the quality of advice to a very high level. She makes someone strong, like Conrad, exert themselves to think out of the box.
> 
> 
> I respect Mavash too. It just concerns me when people post statements as fact that they don’t corroborate, especially when they reflect negatively on half the population, be it male or female. If there are legitimate statistics (from valid and reliable studies) that support the statement, that’s one thing. And that may be the case here. But let us know that. Otherwise it does come across as very questionable. To my knowledge, only one woman in my circle, incorporating social and professional, has cheated on her husband. That is only a statistic in terms of my own, limited normative sample (which, by the way, would be another important factor to identify with your statistic). I could not make a general statement based on my ‘study’.
> 
> This isn’t a head-in-the-sand reaction. If 25% of women cheat on their spouses, it is worth knowing. The next step would be to consider how we might change that deplorable number.
> 
> 
> Don't scoff at the underwear. Women spend much more time and money thinking about how they clothe the parts of their bodies that men desire. This is very important. When a woman goes on a business trip with sexy underwear that is a negative signal for her marriage.
> 
> I don’t necessarily agree with this. A lot of women wear sexy underwear because it makes them feel good about themselves. You don’t have to have a man in your life to buy nice underwear. As someone who has lost weight, I look at sexy underwear as a celebration. I buy it for me. If my H likes it, so much the better (although I must say that what he likes would be way too uncomfortable to wear!) I’m not saying that LL’s wife isn’t buying them (if she is) to entice a man, but please don’t assume that because a woman likes sexy things that she is a tramp.
> 
> Quote from RG's thread:
> They are addicted to infatuation. They show all the hallmarks of addiction... It allows them to forget about their problems and it makes them feel fantastic. They continue to involve themselves in EAs and PAs, despite the fact the it destroys any real, worthwhile relationships they might have had.


This is why LL's wife is uninterested in him.

re: 

You are not going off on a tangent at all. The question you ask is highly relevant. **** Sapiens are monogamous primarily because of social pressure, cultural norms and laws. If we were allowed to indulge our desires to swap partners, men would have harems and women would change partners and/or sneak in quickies when their regular mate was distracted.

In several European countries over 50% of children are born out of wedlock. The percentage has risen dramatically over the past 10 years. The mere fact that so many people decline to marry is hard evidence that one or both partners are ready to walk out the door. The institution of marriage is not coping with Facebook, no fault divorce, gender equality in the workplace. So, no one should be in least surprised that infidelity is common place.

Sorry, LongWalk, I have to disagree again. First of all, many children are born out-of-wedlock within permanent relationships. 

I don’t think the decline in marriages (is there one?) is due to the fact that one or both partners is ready to walk. There are many things that might make a couple choose to live outside of marriage. 

Not sure what gender quality in the workplace has to do with it. People had affairs quite nicely when the genders weren’t as equal as they are now. But I don’t think its marriage per se that isn’t coping well. Its relationships in general. As a society, we have lost our ability to commit to something enough to work at it when things get tough. Its too easy to simply let it go.

Whether 25% of men or women are cheating may be debated but it is certain that the correct number is not 1%. At last, I agree!

Whether or not you are a ticking adulterous bomb is not statistically significant. It is to me!



Chaparral, I have asked LL whether her PAs would be an impediment to reconciliation, he has had trouble answering that. However, it is clear that it bothers him. Even if one accepts that separated spouses are free to start new sexual relations, for the left behind partner there cannot be most difference at emotional level. 

It is not good news that LL's wife is going to have trouble establishing a new stable long term relationship. It may give LL pleasure to see her cast off by a series of men. She may increasingly pair up with partners of lower socioeconomic status and men who have problems because that will be what she can draw.

That will be horrible for his children.

LL, sorry to keep harping on this point, but does *POSOM1 have a criminal record*. You wrote at one point that he smokes weed. He went around accusing your wife of infidelity, threatening her. Should he be around your children? Who were all the other guys?

Your wife walked away from your marriage after getting drunk in the casino. She has not been able to hold job. Just how bad is her life now? Does she smoke grass, too, now?[/QUOTE]


----------



## LongWalk

Frost Flower,

I am afraid the one quarter number for women is not valid. That was back in the 40s. Today the level of infidelity, as cited by this author, is well over 50% for both men and women. 

So infidelity is very common. 

What makes you think that the people you know have all been faithful? Do they confess cheating to their friends and relatives?

re: underwear
Why so many women wear butt floss underwear? Do they think that men don't see panty lines and/or their absence? Men are looking constantly. For that matter tattoos and piercings are largely about sex appeal.

Link



> During the 1940’s Alfred Kinsey did studies and they found that an estimated *one out of two married men and one-fourth of women committed adultery*. (Infidelity-Studying, Paragraph 2) This shows that men were having an affair twice as much as women. To understand why the first thing you need to look at is how a marriage was for the most part defined in the 1940’s. It was defined as the husband would work to support the family and the mother would stay home to take care of the family.(Mintz, Paragraph 8) This gave men more opportunities to fall under the pressure of lust and easier to escape without notice. For women it gave them less opportunities, it also was a bigger risk. For an example if a man got caught cheating and it resulted in a divorce they would still have a job to support themselves, this was not so for women if they cheated and got a divorce they most likely did not have a job so they would have no income.
> In the twenty first century marriages have a lot going against them when it comes to not being a victim of infidelity. This is because of greater opportunities due to the rise of popular social media, clubs and social activities. It is very hard to find good statistics on the percentage of affairs that happen in a marriage do to the secretive nature of affairs. With that being said we can look at the statistics and percentages of spouses that have admitted to infidelity. *According to Infedelityfacts.com the percent of men who have admitted to having an affair is 57% while women’s was 54 %.(Infidelity)* This shows a drastic change from the 1940’s, women have almost become equal to men. This is because the role of the family has changed; women also want to have a career as well as taking care of the family.(Mintz, Paragraph 9) *The risk of losing everything is not as big of a factor anymore. Women are also more exposed to work related romances, due to the high percent of women in the workforce. This also affects men in the workforce because they are working with more women than they were in the 1940’s. The norm for affairs has increasingly been getting more acceptable within our society. This has led to a higher divorce rate and couples within marriages tend to give up prematurely due to different values and less pressure from family and friends to stay together*. (Mintz, Paragraph 7)


----------



## lostLove77

Well you all will probably be happy that fate has stepped in. She was at dinner with an old friend in the city. Afterwards she went to her car to find 2 tires flat. She's waiting to have it towed and guess who's going to take her home? She said she has no idea what to do and called him because she didn't know what else to do. I must be detaching or simply becoming numb because I didn't let it affect me. My first thought is now how I'm goin to handle the girls this week. I was supposed to work a few days while thy were down here. 

Anyway, found it interesting that she said he threw a fit when he heard her mention my name and started walking away from her. Guess she's in for a rough night. 
She's on some kind of brink, mentioned how everything is a huge uphill battle right now. She doesn't see it but many of these things she's fighting I quietly took care of but was never noticed.... I never showed affection... (I know where I missed her needs, but c'mon)

I don't know how I can get passed my feelings for her and if I can enforce boundaries but I'm starting to get tired with myself as all of you are.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## tom67

lostLove77 said:


> Well you all will probably be happy that fate has stepped in. She was at dinner with an old friend in the city. Afterwards she went to her car to find 2 tires flat. She's waiting to have it towed and guess who's going to take her home? She said she has no idea what to do and called him because she didn't know what else to do. I must be detaching or simply becoming numb because I didn't let it affect me. My first thought is now how I'm goin to handle the girls this week. I was supposed to work a few days while thy were down here.
> 
> Anyway, found it interesting that she said he threw a fit when he heard her mention my name and started walking away from her. Guess she's in for a rough night.
> She's on some kind of brink, mentioned how everything is a huge uphill battle right now. She doesn't see it but many of these things she's fighting I quietly took care of but was never noticed.... I never showed affection... (I know where I missed her needs, but c'mon)
> 
> I don't know how I can get passed my feelings for her and if I can enforce boundaries but I'm starting to get tired with myself as all of you are.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Lost think of this as an act of God now...:slap::slap::banghead::banghead::banghead:


----------



## happyman64

lostLove77 said:


> Well you all will probably be happy that fate has stepped in. She was at dinner with an old friend in the city. Afterwards she went to her car to find 2 tires flat. She's waiting to have it towed and guess who's going to take her home? She said she has no idea what to do and called him because she didn't know what else to do. I must be detaching or simply becoming numb because I didn't let it affect me. My first thought is now how I'm goin to handle the girls this week. I was supposed to work a few days while thy were down here.
> 
> *Anyway, found it interesting that she said he threw a fit when he heard her mention my name and started walking away from her. Guess she's in for a rough night.
> She's on some kind of brink, mentioned how everything is a huge uphill battle right now. She doesn't see it but many of these things she's fighting I quietly took care of but was never noticed.... I never showed affection... (I know where I missed her needs, but c'mon)*
> 
> I don't know how I can get passed my feelings for her and if I can enforce boundaries but I'm starting to get tired with myself as all of you are.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I find it interesting how your wife has to tell you all these little details about her BF and their drama.

They are two sick individuals.

Just this type of unhealthy interaction warrants D papers from you to her.

My friend your wife is a nut job. I feel for you and your family but end this misery.

HM


----------



## LongWalk

happyman64 said:


> I find it interesting how your wife has to tell you all these little details about her BF and their drama.
> 
> They are two sick individuals.
> 
> Just this type of unhealthy interaction warrants D papers from you to her.
> 
> My friend your wife is a nut job. I feel for you and your family but end this misery.
> 
> HM


:iagree::iagree:
Lost every conversation like this reduces your image as the male **** sapien that must be take control to be attractive to his mate.

Is this POSOM 1? does he have a job now? Do you want him round your children?


----------



## Frostflower

Sorry, Lost, but she could have taken a cab.

And, should they stay together for any length of time, he will hear your name. You are the father of her children. 

He sounds scary.


----------



## Frostflower

LongWalk said:


> Frost Flower,
> 
> I am afraid the one quarter number for women is not valid. That was back in the 40s. Today the level of infidelity, as cited by this author, is well over 50% for both men and women.
> 
> So infidelity is very common.
> 
> What makes you think that the people you know have all been faithful? Do they confess cheating to their friends and relatives?
> 
> re: underwear
> Why so many women wear butt floss underwear? Do they think that men don't see panty lines and/or their absence? Men are looking constantly. For that matter tattoos and piercings are largely about sex appeal.
> 
> Link


Thank you.

These numbers are even more depressing. And I see now what was meant by increased gender equality in the workforce. I equated it will more women in higher level jobs, not more in the workplace. 

I don’t know if any of the other women I know have been unfaithful. I used that to illustrate that basing a generalized statement on my limited circle would be invalid. 

I still believe that the main problem is one that plagues male-female relationships in general, not just marriages. We live in a throw-away culture, and sadly this attitude seems to extend to relationships. I agree that social media and equality of sexes in the workforce make it easier, but the main problem is not Facebook or office romance. It is a loss of basic values. 

Underwear......I’m sure much of what you describe is purposeful. But I also know a lot of women who, when panty lines or visible panties were pointed out, were extremely embarrassed. My Mum taught me to check for that before I went out. Apparently not all moms do.

Look, my point is simply that, when you see panty lines, don’t automatically assume it was done to attract you.

Make up can be said to be about sex appeal too. But sometimes its just about giving yourself a lift.

Anyway, thanks for information. How sad that it is that way.


----------



## LongWalk

LL,

Thank you again for not getting teed off at me for coming here and swinging lumber. Every time you duck, I hit myself and in so doing learn. One reason that I introduced you and Moxy is because you share a common strength that works against you. You both love big and you love the love itself, even though the object of love does or cannot love back.

It is true that both Moxy's husband and your wife are at some level incredibly impressed with your devotion; they have nothing to give back. In fact, they both do nasty shı† and are amazed that you are still there hoping.

It becomes a game. Your wife's car breaks down and she asks a man you must resent deeply if not outright hate to help her. If you were truly married, you would have been the one there to help. So, she is blaming you for not being there, but how could you be there since she fired you. To make it even more pathological she tells you that she provoked him by mentioning your name. She is using you to reel him back in.

She is like a crab fisherman, treating you like a piece of dead fish tied to a string to draw him up. She is not forming a healthy long term relationship with him. He will never her take seriously because she cheated on him so many times. If he is smart, he will realize that bringing you up the way she does is exactly what she has and will do to him. Yes, he, too, is just a fish that belongs on her crab line.

When you catch a trout or tuna you have to have fight, for once it realizes that it is being captured it will struggle until it is exhausted or rips the hook out. Crabs are stupid. There is no hook. Still they will gnaw and clip at the bait even after the fisherman lifts them in the air.

Your ex got Masters in counseling because she had issues. My father became a psychiatrist/neurologist because he had issues. It did not help either of them, as much as they hoped. They remained dysfunctional and punished those around them. This does not mean that there lives are entirely wasted.

My father was for many years a great doctor who helped many people. But he burnt out and ended up being a prison psychiatrist. Maybe they had 2 or 3 psychiatrists for over 3,000 felons. That was not successful career path. From there he retreated further to become a paper pusher ruling on disability cases for the state, never again seeing a live patient.

My father was a very creative person and could have been the famous and influential academic researcher he dreamt of being, but not as long as he failed to understand himself.

Your wife may have done some wonderful things with the students she tutored and counseled. I can well imagine that when she took her work seriously she had something to give, but she has not flourished either. She has squandered her potential because, like my father, self destruction was easier than healing. My father did not have a doctor. He had no one he could confide in. In college he had real friends who would have all drifted away had not my mother kept the relationships alive.

Women intuitively know more about a healthy social life than men. However, the feminine intuition can be sick. Your wife, instead building up healthy friendships that would have supported your marriage, built up a separate community of men whose purpose is to excite her. Her voice, her eyes, her vagina and her broken heart are all that she can offer them. They'll take her pvssy but not her crazy.

Who wants to marry a separated, unemployed, single mother of two who tortures her husband with details of her affairs? No guy with his shı† together is going to stand it for long.

She is destroying herself. Her parents are worried about her. Perhaps the summer holiday by the sea is something that they are not looking forward to at all. It is merely a last ditch attempt to salvage her.

Sadly her own parents are just enabling her to treat you like crab bait. They wish that you would become an alpha male and bring her to heel. They fear for the future of their granddaughters.

Moxy is so effing smart. Her IQ must be above the 95th percentile. She reasons and writes like a dream. But where are the TAM hard hitters on her thread? I see the relationships formed on ReGroup's thread and I say "wow". How could I get such help? When I say help I mean they work together as a group to respond to Mrs RG's antics. They laugh and they plot. They actually are able to predict her behavior. 

They do not hate Mrs RG. They love her as a human being. By helping RG they help her. If she chooses the path of self destruction/dysfunctionality, they will not feel very terrible. It will be a pity but they saved RG, they save the person who listened and took advice. Moxy – and I care about her – doesn't listen. Two years of inaction... sorry the top posters will not pour their time into help if you do not listen.

But they are watching you. If Moxy, you (or I) say no to being crab bait, they will jump in and help. Collectively, even your poor mixed up wife may be influenced. You should state your goals clearly and the path will be easier. You will get positive feedback.

LL's priorities

1) LL must be number one in the near future, for if you do not put on the oxygen mask, you will not survive to put them on your daughters. That is why you can skip the week of fake reconnection. If you have to tell your parents-in-law that their daughter/your is slu††ing herself out because she is broken inside. You are stepping back, sad as that may be. They will understand you.

2 and 3) Your work and your daughters
You must remain financially solvent and productive while being a good dad. If you can keep these two going in a holding pattern, you will find yourself in a better place.

4) You wife as mother
If you start to heal by disengaging from all of her EA sex addiction drama, you will force her to face being a single mom seriously. Right now, and it will hurt you to read it, but it is true. Your wife is on the prowl for new men. In exchange for emotional stroking by men who recognize her as an easy lay, she sleeps with them and tries to extract an exciting relationship, with her in the center, while at the same time throwing out new crab lines. 

She is not being a good mother as long as she thinks about this stuff all the time.

5) Your marriage
Over time once you are in a better place. She may realize that you are strong. That will attract her back to you as man. That will not happen overnight if it happens at all.

Goals 1 & 2, you can control
Goals 3 & 4 depend on your wife as well

In principle all of the above advice applies to me and Moxy as well. Look at the progress of others (FF, BW, GP, Dis, Confused, etc) they have moved on. We cannot just surrender to being crab bait on string.


----------



## Conrad

LongWalk said:


> :iagree::iagree:
> Lost every conversation like this reduces your image as the male **** sapien that must be take control to be attractive to his mate.
> 
> Is this POSOM 1? does he have a job now? Do you want him round your children?


The numbering system helps to keep them all the posOM's straight. Mind-blowing.

Notice how posOM enforces his boundaries.

Start mentioning other men around him and he walks away.


----------



## LongWalk

LL,

I think that if you explain who all the other men were, it will help. The horror of her juggling them must have struck you and is not lodged inside. You need to vomit this out and move on.

If you have Happyman and Conrad on your side, you can be on the winning team, but you have to sprint from the chaos. Once you have gained a bit of distance you'll be able to breath again. Your wife will see that you are not willing to commit your being to her mess. She will either stand up and get out the slime or not. It is her choice. You are not encouraging her as long as you engage in a discourse about it.

If you strike out to rebuild your life it will help others, including me, Moxy and many others, and not least your daughters.

If you should find the courage to take a stand by leaving or cancelling the false reconnection, you can discuss every difficult move in detail so that you will handle the tactical aspects without excessive anxiety.

Someone like Chuck can propose a hardline. Others will speak up to fine tune it.


----------



## Chuck71

LongWalk said:


> He should have a key to the house that she lives in. Drive straight there. He should go to computer and if cannot access it, he could open it up, take out the hard disk and copy it. They are not divorced yet so that home and property are his. Or...?
> 
> By going through the hard disk he will discover the extent of her infidelity. And although it will be painful, go through her underwear drawer to see how much is completely unfamiliar to you but has been removed by other men. That will hurt but you need to get mad in order to get the strength to 180.
> 
> If your wife comes round after several months of dealing with the new LL, you can examine R. Right now she is not R material.
> 
> What do you say, Chuck?




When I was a child, my parents told me not to do things

if I did, I was given a warning and what would happen next

if I did it again, they always followed through with it

guess what.....they set their boundaries

I knew if I stuck my hand in the cooked fries without a fork

I would face consequences

Speaking of consequences, LLs wife sees none

yes LL may say this or that but she realizes they are shallow threats

LW I think you are from Europe so let's try this.....in the 1930's 

Hitler was patient and slow, he took small pieces until it was obvious

his intentions were Euro-conquest

for the first few years, Germany and Axis powers gained a foothold

in the summer '42 the balance of power began to shift

every one dug in and....well we all know the rest

Hitler gained most things when it was appeased and a slap on wrist

verbal threats....when it became real...every thing changed

LL is being disrespected to the highest degree and until he decides

not to be any longer, it WILL continue

I had a friend of a friend who I knew casually through the years

the wife, was a pre-op transsexual....he cheated on her and she took him back

a few years back, she said it was over....she did not love him any more and

lost her trust in him long ago....

she now lives a hard life being discriminated against for her life choice

but she is happy and not under constant stress

going from at least, upper middle class to poverty is a culture shock

but she took her dignity and self respect


----------



## Frostflower

So, Lost, where does the week sit now? Will she join you once the car is fixed? Or will it just be you, the girls and your in-laws?


----------



## lostLove77

Hi Frost. I honestly don't know right now. Her parents really don't drive so she has to pick them up. I haven't heard from her today and its not like her to not get back to me. I'm a bit worried. I'm so supposed to work this week and she was supposed to be spending the time with the girls so I'm upset about unnessisarliy burning vacation time. 

Walk, she didn't lose her job she's just doing some summer work and I have no idea about baldys history. I don't think he'd have a record but I do not like anything about all of it.

I'm in a miserable place today, worried about her and upset about the whole situation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LongWalk

Real life is full of consequences, Chuck. That is why we are here on TAM, discussing the choices we have made. I am in Europe but that is only because I ran away from my problems. I learned three foreign languages because I kept restless moving on. It gave me experiences. I have two beautiful daughters and one failed marriage.

In some sense in TAM, I have stopped running. Life is too short to fvck up all the time. I cannot move on to a fourth country. It will not solve my problems anymore that POSOM789and10 will solve the problems of LL's wife. She is adrift and she knows it now, but she is afraid to reap the consequences.

It is certainly madness to let the crazy of the others, be it mom, dad, spouse or even child, to be a life sentence to misery and dysfunction.

The Second World War is a good example of the need to face reality. After every war the US treated its vets and the history differently. The First World War was not faced properly, even though it was the war to end all wars. Thus, Hitler came to power. After the Second World War there was a much greater emphasis on accountability. It was not perfect, but the UN whatever its failings, is better than the League of Nations.

It took America a long time to face the Vietnam War. The Korean War was skipped entirely. Where are we today after Iraq and Afghanistan? I don't mean to turn this into a political rant but people need to review these events not rug sweep them. This even applies to the Civil War and the War of 1812, who among today's school children knows that there was a war with Canada?

Sometimes the idea that wars lead to death is an abstraction that only touches the lives of a few. Cheating is celebrity gossip, not one's own husband or wife hiding strange.

This is a bad threadjack... I write too much.

You're into sports, right? Lance Armstrong, great American hero and cheater, gotcha Lance. There is no comeback this time. And all those baseball players on steroids... nearly wrecked the nation's pastime.

But we digress and bore our readers.

What is LL to do? This week by the Atlantic with parents-in-law, WW and his two daughters. LL must take a stand, somehow. It must be a stand that LL feels comfortable with. ReGroup had a chance to exchange ideas over days and weeks, asking why, getting feedback. LL doesn't really trust us. 

I think that when everybody is settled in, he should leave but perhaps instead of just going dark he should have a note in an envelope for his wife. That note should say that there are only two choices for her: work to save the marriage or divorce.

She has to go NC with all OM. He has to move in with her. She has to stop all dating. Turnover her passwords to FB, telephone, etc. She has to go to IC. They have to go to MC. If she actually were forced to do this on the second day of the reconnection holiday, maybe she would see that LL is not person who will put with infinite BS (choose either meaning).

The problem is that she a wild horse now.

If LL is firm and refuses to engage in anymore relationship analysis, there is an outside chance that she will change. The time for blame shifting is over now. Now she needs moral order.

LL demanded a kiss from his wife and he was surprised that she gave it him. But to his credit he knew her heart wasn't in it. If LL, lays down the non negotiable conditions for R, maybe she will of her own accord want to sleep with him by the end of the week. But LL should not chase her.

Things don't look good. But if LL has plan and sticks to it, at least he can say he tried.

BTW, Chuck did you read Sister Carrie in school. That is a novel that illustrated the consequences of cheating. It was a shocker in its time.


----------



## LongWalk

lostLove77 said:


> Hi Frost. I honestly don't know right now. Her parents really don't drive so she has to pick them up. I haven't heard from her today and its not like her to not get back to me. I'm a bit worried. I'm so supposed to work this week and she was supposed to be spending the time with the girls so I'm upset about unnessisarliy burning vacation time.
> 
> Walk, she didn't lose her job she's just doing some summer work and I have no idea about baldys history. I don't think he'd have a record but I do not like anything about all of it.
> 
> I'm in a miserable place today, worried about her and upset about the whole situation.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You need to make a game plan and you need to stick to it.

Earth to Moxy! Where are you?


----------



## Conrad

Frostflower said:


> So, Lost, where does the week sit now? Will she join you once the car is fixed? Or will it just be you, the girls and your in-laws?


Frost,

When she was in need of assistance, she called posOM.

That's really all anyone needs to know.


----------



## jh52

lostLove77 said:


> Hi Frost. I honestly don't know right now. Her parents really don't drive so she has to pick them up. I haven't heard from her today and its not like her to not get back to me. I'm a bit worried. I'm so supposed to work this week and she was supposed to be spending the time with the girls so I'm upset about unnessisarliy burning vacation time.
> 
> Walk, she didn't lose her job she's just doing some summer work and I have no idea about baldys history. I don't think he'd have a record but I do not like anything about all of it.
> 
> I'm in a miserable place today, worried about her and upset about the whole situation.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


LostLove --- don't worry about your wife. After POSOM # ? picked her up last night -- they spent the night together and are probably enjoying spending time together this beautiful summer Sunday.

But once again don't worry -- she will eventually call her "girl friend" (that's you) and tell you all about it.

I haven't posted in a while on your thread -- but nothing has changed. The more she treats you with disrespect -- the deeper she has you hooked. You are in quick sand LL --- I hope you have the courage to get our of the quick sand soon -- before you go completely under.


----------



## Frostflower

Conrad said:


> Frost,
> 
> When she was in need of assistance, she called posOM.
> 
> That's really all anyone needs to know.


I know


----------



## Frostflower

Longwalk, in your last post you said that Lost doesn’t trust us. I don’t think its that. If he didn’t trust us, he wouldn’t keep coming back. 

Things don’t always run according to what may seem logical. We are human. We have emotions. Love is not a rational thing. Lost is torn. Some of us can’t simply turn it off because it hurts. If I had done that, my H and I would not be together now.

And, being human, we don’t run in straight lines. When my H was gone there were days I cried, days I came close to hate, days I wanted R, days I knew it was over. Its normal. Its human.

Some posters have put Lost down because he hasn’t followed their advice or because he goes back and forth. They insinuate that he is weak. I have seen the word ‘girlfriend’ used more than once, implying that he is not a man. This makes me angry. He is a man in the true sense of the word. He is not being swayed to do things he does not agree with or is not yet ready to do. I, for one, respect him and applaud him for being who he is.


----------



## Chaparral

Has this been asked, has lost read MARRIED MAN SEX LIFE PRIMER? There is one link to a source in my signature.

Re infidelity statistics. While they are all over the place, it seems to me the 25% figure for both genders must be close. The sex bias accusations are very amusing though, especially seeing what going overboard there has wrought. I deduced the 15% figure since about 33% of marriages are reconciled. The caveat is that if a man cheats, there is about a 45% reconciliation rate, thus that leaves 15 to 18% if a woman cheats. I think that is because when a woman cheats she is done, or her husband is more likely to refuse sharing her or................

The easiest thing to do is just google infidelity statistics.


----------



## jh52

Frostflower said:


> Longwalk, in your last post you said that Lost doesn’t trust us. I don’t think its that. If he didn’t trust us, he wouldn’t keep coming back.
> 
> Things don’t always run according to what may seem logical. We are human. We have emotions. Love is not a rational thing. Lost is torn. Some of us can’t simply turn it off because it hurts. If I had done that, my H and I would not be together now.
> 
> And, being human, we don’t run in straight lines. When my H was gone there were days I cried, days I came close to hate, days I wanted R, days I knew it was over. Its normal. Its human.
> 
> Some posters have put Lost down because he hasn’t followed their advice or because he goes back and forth. They insinuate that he is weak. I have seen the word ‘girlfriend’ used more than once, implying that he is not a man. This makes me angry. He is a man in the true sense of the word. He is not being swayed to do things he does not agree with or is not yet ready to do. I, for one, respect him and applaud him for being who he is.


Hi Frost -- glad you got angry --- wish LL would show some emotion -- any emotion but status quo.

When I use the word girlfriend -- I have told LL this before -- it's not saying he isn't a man -- but he his allowing his wife to treat him as her girl friend -- not her husband.

Call it whatever you want -- but his wife shares everything she does with all her other men -- in a normal conversation/phone call when ever they talk.

IMO -- that is what two girlfriends would do -- not a wife and her husband.


----------



## Conrad

Frost,

Perhaps my memory is a bit foggy.

But, you went no contact with your husband and he missed you and came back.

When do you think Lost will start going no contact?

That's just it.

He hasn't.

Your situations are not analogous.


----------



## LongWalk

Frostflower said:


> Longwalk, in your last post you said that Lost doesn’t trust us. I don’t think its that. If he didn’t trust us, he wouldn’t keep coming back.
> 
> Things don’t always run according to what may seem logical. We are human. We have emotions. Love is not a rational thing. Lost is torn. Some of us can’t simply turn it off because it hurts. If I had done that, my H and I would not be together now.
> 
> And, being human, we don’t run in straight lines. When my H was gone there were days I cried, days I came close to hate, days I wanted R, days I knew it was over. Its normal. Its human.
> 
> Some posters have put Lost down because he hasn’t followed their advice or because he goes back and forth. They insinuate that he is weak. I have seen the word ‘girlfriend’ used more than once, implying that he is not a man. This makes me angry. He is a man in the true sense of the word. He is not being swayed to do things he does not agree with or is not yet ready to do. I, for one, respect him and applaud him for being who he is.


When I say _trust_ I do not refer to suspicion of ill intent. He knows we mean well even if we have our own baggage. LL does not trust the advice that he is getting. He believes that filing for divorce will lead to the final destruction of his marriage. We believe just the opposite: only by demonstrating what divorce will mean for her can he get her to consider the consider life without him. Right now she is cake-eating.

The longer she cake eats, the greater the damage to LL's psyche. She is emasculating him by discussing her affairs with him as if were a cuckold in an open marriage.

I cannot applaud what LL is doing because it is not working and it is harming him and his two daughters. As a TAM, brother or friend or whatever I am, I have to be straightforward. Sometimes, I wince at my bluntness, but think LL knows that there are dozens following his thread and all unanimously recommend 180 to heal himself. If his successful 180 catches his wife's attention and he is able to get her to change, that would be great.

He cannot nice his wife into breaking off her affairs. He cannot nice her into loving him as man. The more he chats with her and is her confidant, the deeper the hole he digs himself.

LL is a creative person who makes a good living, providing we assume clients with Internet solutions. His wife was once proud of him, but has stated that the situation is undermining his ability to work. That is worrisome.


----------



## Wazza

Conrad said:


> Frost,
> 
> Perhaps my memory is a bit foggy.
> 
> But, you went no contact with your husband and he missed you and came back.
> 
> When do you think Lost will start going no contact?
> 
> That's just it.
> 
> He hasn't.
> 
> Your situations are not analogous.


FrostFlower didn't go no contact. She did, however, blow up and demand a divorce after a particularly horrible email, that turned out to have been written by OW masquerading as her husband. 

It's an interesting (and unanswerable) question what would have happened had Frostflower drawn her line in the sand at a different time. My impression is that her husband is a decent man who was left at a low point in the marriage, but was looking for a way to come back. Had she drawn the line earlier, it may have pushed him to complete the divorce process he had started.

I know that while my wife was having her affair, I never accepted it, but never kicked her out either. Perhaps I would now be divorced if I had. 

Still reading the thread to come up to speed on the history, so can't comment yet on the specifics of Lost's situation. 

Might comment more when I have read the whole thread.


----------



## Conrad

Wazza,

You can save some time on this thread by noting she was with posOM and kind of sort of said she would give him up - and then kind of sort of decided not to.

We're still there.


----------



## Wazza

Conrad said:


> Wazza,
> 
> You can save some time on this thread by noting she was with posOM and kind of sort of said she would give him up - and then kind of sort of decided not to.
> 
> We're still there.


Well that was me for a few months in 1990.  

Anyway...let me hold from further comments until I have read more.


----------



## Conrad

Wazza said:


> Well that was me for a few months in 1990.
> 
> Anyway...let me hold from further comments until I have read more.


One last thing.

Lost is someone who will actually fume over pictures of his wife with posOM - on Facebook no less - and then still agree to vacation with her.

That was NOT how Frostflower got her husband back.


----------



## lostLove77

Frost, thanks for the kind words. I am trying to do the best I can for my daughters but having a hard time pushing through all the other crap.

Funny thing, he's driving her to get her car from the shop tomorrow so she can drive down here... I need her to come down logistically to watch the girls (logistics are really messed up) but now I'm actually not looking forward to it. She's coming down without her parents. 

I don't see this being very positive either and my plan is to get through the week and then go dark. At least it will be a short week - monday afternoon to thursday afternoon. Unless i run screaming into the ocean and try to swim to England.


----------



## Frostflower

Conrad said:


> Frost,
> 
> Perhaps my memory is a bit foggy.
> 
> But, you went no contact with your husband and he missed you and came back.
> 
> When do you think Lost will start going no contact?
> 
> That's just it.
> 
> He hasn't.
> 
> Your situations are not analogous.


I never went no contact. We continued to talk about the kids and the house. I went to keeping it on topic instead of throwing in pleasantries and anecdotes about the kids and me. Also, unless I had a specific question about something related to the kids or the house, I let him initiate. We communicated only by email. 

Lost and my situations aren’t analogous. i know that. All I was trying to say was that going back and forth and having trouble deciding on a path and sticking to it are difficult. Lost still has feelings for his wife. He needs to work through them in his own way and at his own speed and then decide on a course of action. Otherwise he will never know if what he did was what he wanted or what others though he should want.

.


----------



## Frostflower

LongWalk said:


> When I say _trust_ I do not refer to suspicion of ill intent. He knows we mean well even if we have our own baggage. LL does not trust the advice that he is getting. He believes that filing for divorce will lead to the final destruction of his marriage. We believe just the opposite: only by demonstrating what divorce will mean for her can he get her to consider the consider life without him. Right now she is cake-eating.
> 
> The longer she cake eats, the greater the damage to LL's psyche. She is emasculating him by discussing her affairs with him as if were a cuckold in an open marriage.
> 
> I cannot applaud what LL is doing because it is not working and it is harming him and his two daughters. As a TAM, brother or friend or whatever I am, I have to be straightforward. Sometimes, I wince at my bluntness, but think LL knows that there are dozens following his thread and all unanimously recommend 180 to heal himself. If his successful 180 catches his wife's attention and he is able to get her to change, that would be great.
> 
> He cannot nice his wife into breaking off her affairs. He cannot nice her into loving him as man. The more he chats with her and is her confidant, the deeper the hole he digs himself.
> 
> LL is a creative person who makes a good living, providing we assume clients with Internet solutions. His wife was once proud of him, but has stated that the situation is undermining his ability to work. That is worrisome.


I know that his wife has been cake-eating. I said so in what was, I believe, my first post on this thread. Yes, he needs to put an end it it. But I don’t believe it is necessary to file for divorce in order to do that. I believe applying the 180 can be quite effective. and should definitely be the first strategy before filing. He doesn’t even need to apply it all if some parts of it make him uncomfortable. It can still be effective.


----------



## Frostflower

Wazza said:


> FrostFlower didn't go no contact. She did, however, blow up and demand a divorce after a particularly horrible email, that turned out to have been written by OW masquerading as her husband.
> 
> It's an interesting (and unanswerable) question what would have happened had Frostflower drawn her line in the sand at a different time. My impression is that her husband is a decent man who was left at a low point in the marriage, but was looking for a way to come back. Had she drawn the line earlier, it may have pushed him to complete the divorce process he had started.
> 
> I know that while my wife was having her affair, I never accepted it, but never kicked her out either. Perhaps I would now be divorced if I had.
> 
> Still reading the thread to come up to speed on the history, so can't comment yet on the specifics of Lost's situation.
> 
> Might comment more when I have read the whole thread.


I think I imploded first, but you’re right, Wazza, I did tell him we were through. It was after that he broke down and expressed remorse over what he had done.

He hadn’t started a divorce process. He was fine leaving things as they were for the foreseeable future. I was pushing for a separation agreement. 

Who knows. If OW hadn’t written that last email, I might still be swinging back and forth between wanting him out of my life and wanting him in it. Or, maybe I would have got the legal separation and things would have proceed to divorce.

I guess I should be grateful that OW was rather unhinged.


----------



## Frostflower

lostLove77 said:


> Frost, thanks for the kind words. I am trying to do the best I can for my daughters but having a hard time pushing through all the other crap.
> 
> Funny thing, he's driving her to get her car from the shop tomorrow so she can drive down here... I need her to come down logistically to watch the girls (logistics are really messed up) but now I'm actually not looking forward to it. She's coming down without her parents.
> 
> I don't see this being very positive either and my plan is to get through the week and then go dark. At least it will be a short week - monday afternoon to thursday afternoon. Unless i run screaming into the ocean and try to swim to England.


Same advice as before, Lost. Be pleasant. Stay at 5,000 feet. Observe. Have some of Conrad’s lines in your back pocket (“I’m not okay with where this conversation is going”, etc.)

You can do it. But, if you do run screaming into the ocean and make it to England, swim around the south coast and up to Eastbourne. I’ll make you a hot cup of tea!

Hug.


----------



## moxy

Lost -- the more distance you create between yourself and your WW, the more likely she is to try and think about her own actions to become more responsible (not a guarantee, but very unlikely if you don't create some space and distance) and the more likely you are to find the strength to stand up for your own happiness, which might make you a more appealing choice. Don't be her lapdog, no matter how much you think you can nice her into coming back; she's gotta sort out her baggage and she can't do that if you're too close by and too involved. 

I'll catch up on your thread soon. Life problems going on in my world that are in need of a lot of time and attention, so I've been away the past few days.


----------



## catcalls

lostLove77 said:


> Frost, thanks for the kind words. I am trying to do the best I can for my daughters but having a hard time pushing through all the other crap.
> 
> Funny thing, he's driving her to get her car from the shop tomorrow so she can drive down here... I need her to come down logistically to watch the girls (logistics are really messed up) but now I'm actually not looking forward to it. She's coming down without her parents.
> 
> I don't see this being very positive either and my plan is to get through the week and then go dark. At least it will be a short week - monday afternoon to thursday afternoon. Unless i run screaming into the ocean and try to swim to England.


She is testing you to see how much sh*t you will take. she will make her moves on you or at least appear sad, vulnerable etc her so that you will console her and feel some rapport. then you are hooked again for a few months.

she does not love you and is not attracted to you. i would not go on this break with her and play happy families. you are giving false hope and confusing your children.


----------



## lostLove77

Hi Moxy, hope things get better for your family. Nice to hear from you. It will be hard but ill try to be my own man and not beg for her attention. 

Frost, I am coming to things in my own time. I had tried to distance myself before and grew crazier and more depressed the longer I stayed away. Sounds strange but it was true. Now, I'm starting to feel my emotions growing distant but still feel I cannot successfully pull further away tho I will try. 

How can you truly speak to someone and spend time with them when there is this part of our lives I should talk or ask her about. Can really ask what she's been up to and not think I'm getting a BS story full of omissions. How do I refrain myself from asking about her feelings about me and others in her life?

Feels like I'd just be nodding to her all week! 

Anyway, thanks for the offer of tea. I could use a tea time right about now. Ill bring pasteries.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LongWalk

lostLove77 said:


> Hi Moxy, hope things get better for your family. Nice to hear from you. It will be hard but ill try to be my own man and not beg for her attention.
> 
> Frost, I am coming to things in my own time. I had tried to distance myself before and grew crazier and more depressed the longer I stayed away. Sounds strange but it was true. Now, I'm starting to feel my emotions growing distant but still feel I cannot successfully pull further away tho I will try.
> 
> How can you truly speak to someone and spend time with them when there is this part of our lives I should talk or ask her about. Can really ask what she's been up to and not think I'm getting a BS story full of omissions. How do I refrain myself from asking about her feelings about me and others in her life?
> 
> Feels like I'd just be nodding to her all week!
> 
> Anyway, thanks for the offer of tea. I could use a tea time right about now. Ill bring pasteries.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





> Frost, thanks for the kind words. I am trying to do the best I can for my daughters but having a hard time pushing through all the other crap.
> 
> Funny thing, he's driving her to get her car from the shop tomorrow so she can drive down here... I need her to come down logistically to watch the girls (logistics are really messed up) but now I'm actually not looking forward to it. She's coming down without her parents.
> 
> I don't see this being very positive either and my plan is to get through the week and then go dark. At least it will be a short week - monday afternoon to thursday afternoon. Unless i run screaming into the ocean and try to swim to England.


LL,

Outstanding posts! Psychologically you have stopped moving in the wrong direction. There is a tone of sadness and realism that is healthy. The humor you expressed is the key to surviving this shortened week.

This is one of the first times I can recall that you did not blame yourself for anything. You have come far enough to know that the color of paint in the bedrooms did not cause your wife to cheat.

Alison Streeter has swum the English channel three times without stopping. You will be the first to cross the Atlantic.

The difficulty of spending a week with your wife is obvious. If you learn more of her life during the separation, the pain will be horrific. If you learn nothing much, the pain will be perhaps less horrific but oppressive. Catch-22.

Let us hold an open mind about everything now. Originally, the plan was to have the grandparents along to give the two of you time to talk. They are not coming. Why, do you know? At any rate they will not be there to distract, mediate or influence. This holiday will be down to just the nuclear family.

Your daughters will be very happy to see you both together. The four of you eating meals together is not something you have done much over the past six months. Even if you have to work, can you get to the beach with them? Even an hour together building sand castles. Maybe your youngest and you can build one and your wife and your eldest can build another. Perhaps there will be a chic flick moment when the girls connect the castles. It cannot hurt at this point.

Maybe it will give your wife something to fight for.

By coming on this vacation your wife is moving towards you for the first time in ages. As Moxy notes you should not be rushing forward to close the distance. I suggest that you do not take the initiative in discussion your relationship. Leave that to her. Listen. If you are to rebuild your marriage, you have a right to know more. But she must acknowledge your right to know.

For the sake of honesty your ought to be able to tell that you are angry and have every right to be. Say it just once and leave her to mull over it.

If she says that she is open to reconciliation, you have to lay down the terms. The license to date is terminated. You must have access to her telephone and computer. She must write NC letters to all the OMs. You can memorize the words of one such letter and help her type it out. She must sign her name and you press click.

If she will not do this, you should go dark.

Are the waves good for body surfing?

LL

I lost my glasses in the waves off the boardwalk in Atlantic City when I was 11 or 12. My father was really angry. He had pair of spare glasses. I wore them, although my myopia was worse than his.

We were at the American Medical Association annual meeting. He had a scientific exhibit. I had to work in his booth. There were no other children working in booths. I knew this was not normal. I still remember the drug company that two blond twins in hot pants passing out leaflets.

We are rooting for you, LL. Hope your wife can straighten herself out. It will be torture seeing her in a bathing suit. Be strong.


----------



## Wazza

Ok, read the entire thread.

LL, I am very sorry, but you haven't had a marriage for six months at least. You are clinging to nothing.

If she comes back and tries seriously, you might be able to reconcile, but until she stops stuffing around you have nothing.

Worse than that, she is sticking you with all the problems. Case in point, vacation house. Sure you can live there but it isn't what you want. Why do you have to make the sacrifice? Why does she get to live in the other house rent free while you are forces to pay rent to live in the same area. These are joint problems, not just yours.

Case two, weekends. Why does she get to go out and date every weekend while you are on babysitting duty? 

I would have thought your ex...if she wanted to come back....would have to do some heavy lifting to demonstrate her remorse and commitment. There is no sign of that in anything I have read.

I know you blame yourself....we all do. But that is most likely nonsense. And when you start dating again you will regain perspective.

Sorry man, but I think she is gone. Doing the 180 is a great idea, not because you expect it will get her back, but because you need to move on.

Nothing I did stopped my wife in her affair. She had to come to it herself. Nothing Frostflower did brought R back, it came from him.

Move on, find yourself. If she comes back it's a bonus, if not you at least are planning your life around reality.

Sorry if this is harsh, but when I read your thread it is so clear.


----------



## LongWalk

Wazza said:


> Ok, read the entire thread.
> 
> LL, I am very sorry, but you haven't had a marriage for six months at least. You are clinging to nothing.
> 
> If she comes back and tries seriously, you might be able to reconcile, but until she stops stuffing around you have nothing.
> 
> Worse than that, she is sticking you with all the problems. Case in point, vacation house. Sure you can live there but it isn't what you want. Why do you have to make the sacrifice? Why does she get to live in the other house rent free while you are forces to pay rent to live in the same area. These are joint problems, not just yours.
> 
> Case two, weekends. Why does she get to go out and date every weekend while you are on babysitting duty?
> 
> I would have thought your ex...if she wanted to come back....would have to do some heavy lifting to demonstrate her remorse and commitment. There is no sign of that in anything I have read.
> 
> I know you blame yourself....we all do. But that is most likely nonsense. And when you start dating again you will regain perspective.
> 
> Sorry man, but I think she is gone. Doing the 180 is a great idea, not because you expect it will get her back, but because you need to move on.
> 
> Nothing I did stopped my wife in her affair. She had to come to it herself. Nothing Frostflower did brought R back, it came from him.
> 
> Move on, find yourself. If she comes back it's a bonus, if not you at least are planning your life around reality.
> 
> Sorry if this is harsh, but when I read your thread it is so clear.


LL,

This is the reality without embellishment or hyperbole.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Frostflower

I’m sorry, Lost, but I agree with Wazza. Your wife has to want to be with you. It is very clear that she doesn’t. As Wazza said, there is nothing that you can do that will change that. Perhaps she has to reach rock bottom in her life to realize that she needs to make some changes, for her sake.. 

Don’t be her plan B or as jh52 says, her ‘girlfriend’. You have had the worst part of this separation all along. Perhaps its time to get a legal separation with things spelled out equally, including custody times and dates. 

Do the 180. It will help you put space between you, which you desperately need. It will also build your strength to deal with this. 

I have to say that all along I’ve been hopeful that things would work out for you. I no longer have any hope. Your wife hasn’t yet realized what she has done. Until she does, there is no hope. Continuing to let her cake-eat will only prolong the fantasy world she is living in and will only drag out your pain.

I’m so sorry. I know this is hard to hear. I know I said that you will do things in your time. Lost, its time.

Hug.


----------



## moxy

You're not going to be able to wear down her resolve to split up just by being her back-up guy. She has told you that she doesn't want to be married, right? Let her go. If she changes her mind, you can always take her back. She's dating other guys. No way you can salvage this unless she wants to and it looks like she doesn't want to. She's not even giving you the option of getting back together and rug sweeping it. So, you're resisting things, but only making it worse for yourself. Please stop making yourself available to her. I know it hurts, but you're making things worse for yourself by holding on when she doesn't want to. I'm sorry to put it that way, but, if she doesn't want up be married, you can't change her mind just be refusing to cooperate, you know?


----------



## LongWalk

LL,

Moxy and Frost couldn't have said these things if they didn't think you might now be ready to accept them.

There is hope for your marriage but the road to fix your wife will be long and uncertain. You will need Mavash, Conrad, Chuck, Frost and others to coach you. Once the process of fixing her starts (and there is no guarantee it will work) you will have to be incredibly patient and philosophical.

And when all is said and done if she turns to you in humility, seeking love and forgiveness, you may be utterly sick of her.

This week build the last sandcastles together and let the tide wash them clean. Make this week the new beginning whatever that comes to mean.


----------



## lostLove77

LongWalk said:


> This week build the last sandcastles together and let the tide wash them clean. Make this week the new beginning whatever that comes to mean.


Walk, I thank you. This gives me hope that some resolution and steps forward can be made. She is bringing down her parents after all so we'll see what comes of this. I agree that I'm hanging on to strings yet I also feel like I have nothing left, divorce affairs are moving forward. 

I feel so terrible for how selfish I was during the marriage, this is something I must work on and has cost me dearily. I know others have said my actions were not too egregious but they were hurtful enough. 

So, she'll be here in a few hours I pray something, anything positive comes out of this. I know the kids are ecstatic so there is hope there.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LongWalk

> I feel so terrible for how selfish I was during the marriage, this is something I must work on and has cost me dearily. I know others have said my actions were not too egregious but they were hurtful enough.


You must not say this or admit to her at all during this time together. Every time you admit to being imperfect, her attraction for you takes another hit.

You must be confident. Arrange things. Be decisive. Take decisions on behalf of others (this does not meaning being a jerk or an a hole). Don't poll and negotiate all the time.


----------



## moxy

lostLove77 said:


> .
> I feel so terrible for how selfish I was during the marriage, this is something I must work on and has cost me dearily. I know others have said my actions were not too egregious but they were hurtful enough.


This is a really important thing for you to realize. You see your own part in the dynamic, here. It may be skewed and your actions may not have been as bad as you think they are, but they were a significant impact in the relationship between you both. And, yes, you must work on it. But, that won't happen with you holding on to her when you need two hands to sift through your own issues, right?

It is a good time, now, for you to think about WHY you have allowed yourself to be selfish and less of a partner than you could have been. Maybe the fault was with you, but maybe there was too much pressure from her being placed onto you to be a certain way and selfishness was your way of creating breathing room. Maybe she wasn't as good a partner for you as you thought. Maybe you both noticed something wasn't working and instead of reaching out to each other, you chose to behave in ways that were destructive, she with her dishonorable and sleazy manner of exit from the marriage and you with your passive aggression in it. Does that stop with blame? No. Something wasn't clicking. You were not in alignment with each other. You weren't meeting each others' needs; maybe you don't even know what your needs are -- if so, how could you two have gotten through the tough stuff? Maybe you two could be able to meet each other evenly, someday, but at this time, it didn't happen. Work on that. If there's any possibility of a future with her or anyone else in which the outcome is different, you must be stronger than your weaknesses. 

It's okay to blame yourself for your share of the problems. However, she has to shoulder a much bigger share because she cheated. You can fix all your problems, but that doesn't fix the marriage; she has to want to fix her problems, too, and you both have to be able to connect when you've changed -- which isn't something she is showing an interest in. I'm sorry that you can't fix it by yourself; you sound like you really would carry the whole relationship if you could. I understand because I'm the same way; I'd do all the work if it meant he would be faithful and loving and honest, because I love him that much. But, it doesn't help the relationship to do that. You can't sustain a marriage with someone if you aren't taking care of yourself and the other person isn't taking care of the self. You must now figure out what your needs really are and what you can give to yourself, build your SELF-esteem. That's the lesson to take away from this; it's not the end of you and that means you have a chance to make life good for yourself and your girls.


----------



## LongWalk

LL, I saw that you posted on BW's thread with the comment about being a slow learner. You also mentioned insomnia. BW is a very funny dude. He has the same problem as you, trying to figure who the woman he married really is. That can cause some sleepless nights. Reading TAM can eat into the predawn hours. It can be even harder to sleep if you get into a thread. This is not good but it is better than drinking.

A really hard physical workout can help you sleep. What sort of exercise can you get on the beach? Can you walk along it for a few miles? Is there pick up volleyball?

You have the girls right now so maybe you have no alone time. Running on sand is really tough. Maybe if they play in the sand you can do sprints and keep an eye on them. Use an iPhone app to create discipline.

I think you are turning the corner. ReGroup's thread is one of the best for you. You have been there, I know. Have you read the whole thing? A lot of what you need to do is there. He has actually gotten her back to seeing him as a more exciting man than the PosOM. He did this by showing total indifference to her.

She engages in all sorts of emotional codependent game playing and TAM has coached him to lob the ball back and force her to face herself. His restraint makes him more not only superficially more attractive to her, but he has repaired or is repairing his own flaws. Through TAM he and, indirectly, she are getting psychotherapy that would cost thousands for free.

Whatever you did to you wife in the past during your marriage is, as Moxy notes, important. But at the moment you need to get to where ReGroup or BW are. Once you get some distance and only respond to her to her about your children and divorce, then she will start taking you seriously. Will she be attracted to you again once she realizes you have integrity and self-respect? That is an unknown.

ReGroups's cousin pranked him and sent a text, indicating that he still had feelings for her. She couldn't sleep all night, thinking that he was still in love with her. It was a real disappointment when RG revealed that it was a joke. However, it revealed that she might well be receptive to reconciliation.

Does he want her back? He is uncertain. She must come to the realization that PosOM must be kicked out before he will consider it. He is not telling her to kick out PosOM; she must realize that it is necessary before ReGroup will consider her seriously. He does not want to be the B plan.

Actions speak louder than words. ReGroup's wife wanted to play something like FWB but from the divorced angle. She kicked him out and then wanted him to financially and emotionally treat him like a wife. For example, she wanted her ex MIL to babysit for free on demand during the time that she had their child. She would go to exMIL and complain that RG was not being nice enough. RG put a stop to it.

A really brilliant exchange took place when argued about money. She said remember how I supported when you were unemployed 6 years ago? He responded that he was grateful but he is not obligated to do the same because without marriage that obligation is gone.

The list of strange interactions goes on and on. She doesn't want divorce and delayed to the point that her own lawyer refused to work on the case anymore. He was sick of it.

If you do the same as ReGroup, you may get the same result, but only if your wife cares enough to remain engaged with you. She may not. You will find out when you begin to split assets.

Do not let her walk away with more than her fair share. You need to take a reasonable stand and fight like RG. Once you are not easy to bully, manipulate and leech off of, she will see you differently. Whether or not she repairs herself is an open question.


----------



## Frostflower

lostLove77 said:


> Walk, I thank you. This gives me hope that some resolution and steps forward can be made. She is bringing down her parents after all so we'll see what comes of this. I agree that I'm hanging on to strings yet I also feel like I have nothing left, divorce affairs are moving forward.
> 
> I feel so terrible for how selfish I was during the marriage, this is something I must work on and has cost me dearily. I know others have said my actions were not too egregious but they were hurtful enough.
> 
> *So, she'll be here in a few hours I pray something, anything positive comes out of this. I know the kids are ecstatic so there is hope there.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I hope the kids aren’t ecstatic because they think this holiday means Mom and Dad are back together. If that is the case, they may be in for a huge disappointment.

Lost, if the only thing that comes out of it is clarity, it will have been worthwhile.


----------



## jh52

Since her parents and kids have met POSOM would anyone be surprised if he showed up as well?

I hope not but LL's wife isn't thinking straight at the moment.


----------



## lostLove77

Frost, I am concerned what they think about this overall. They are so happy right now.

Her parents have not met Baldy. 

We've spoke about him and she's adamant she's not in a relationship of any kind but just friendship. I know it sounds crazy but this is not a normal woman. 

Been having a really nice time with her, which is hard in itself. We went for a run on the beach last evening and played a little quiz game with each other about things we've said and done over our past. Some minor physical stuff in bed. It felt like dating. So far I feel this is only going to cloud my head but I can't seem to pull away at all.

They're all at the beach today while I get some work in. Not sure what the evening will bring.

Moxy, I am trying to dig into my selfishness. I don't know if it is rooted in childhood issues but I think it's tied into the Nice Guy syndrome. Been trying to get through that book.

I do want to work on my self-esteem because that is a big issue right now as well. I've been finding it hard to build on that because I'm realizing i seek validation in every aspect of my life and being cutoff from home makes me feel isolated and unloved. I have to learn to be happy with the good things that I do have, a wonderful brother, sister in-law, niece, mother and best of all my girls and a good career. I can't seem to shake my focus on the gaps from what is my reality and what I desire.


----------



## LongWalk

lostLove77 said:


> Frost, I am concerned what they think about this overall. They are so happy right now.
> 
> Her parents have not met Baldy.
> 
> We've spoke about him and she's adamant she's not in a relationship of any kind but just friendship. I know it sounds crazy but this is not a normal woman.
> 
> Been having a really nice time with her, which is hard in itself. We went for a run on the beach last evening and played a little quiz game with each other about things we've said and done over our past. Some minor physical stuff in bed. It felt like dating. So far I feel this is only going to cloud my head but I can't seem to pull away at all.
> 
> They're all at the beach today while I get some work in. Not sure what the evening will bring.
> 
> Moxy, I am trying to dig into my selfishness. I don't know if it is rooted in childhood issues but I think it's tied into the Nice Guy syndrome. Been trying to get through that book.
> 
> *I do want to work on my self-esteem because that is a big issue right now as well. I've been finding it hard to build on that because I'm realizing i seek validation in every aspect of my life and being cutoff from home makes me feel isolated and unloved.* I have to learn to be happy with the good things that I do have, a wonderful brother, sister in-law, niece, mother and best of all my girls and a good career. I can't seem to shake my focus on the gaps from what is my reality and what I desire.


You are isolated. And as far as your wife is concerned unloved. No man's self esteem could survive this intact.


----------



## Conrad

lostLove77 said:


> I know it sounds crazy but this is not a normal woman.


It's an enabled woman.


----------



## LongWalk

What of interest came out if the quiz game?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chuck71

LongWalk said:


> Real life is full of consequences, Chuck. That is why we are here on TAM, discussing the choices we have made. I am in Europe but that is only because I ran away from my problems. I learned three foreign languages because I kept restless moving on. It gave me experiences. I have two beautiful daughters and one failed marriage.
> 
> In some sense in TAM, I have stopped running. Life is too short to fvck up all the time. I cannot move on to a fourth country. It will not solve my problems anymore that POSOM789and10 will solve the problems of LL's wife. She is adrift and she knows it now, but she is afraid to reap the consequences.
> 
> It is certainly madness to let the crazy of the others, be it mom, dad, spouse or even child, to be a life sentence to misery and dysfunction.
> 
> The Second World War is a good example of the need to face reality. After every war the US treated its vets and the history differently. The First World War was not faced properly, even though it was the war to end all wars. Thus, Hitler came to power. After the Second World War there was a much greater emphasis on accountability. It was not perfect, but the UN whatever its failings, is better than the League of Nations.
> 
> It took America a long time to face the Vietnam War. The Korean War was skipped entirely. Where are we today after Iraq and Afghanistan? I don't mean to turn this into a political rant but people need to review these events not rug sweep them. This even applies to the Civil War and the War of 1812, who among today's school children knows that there was a war with Canada?
> 
> Sometimes the idea that wars lead to death is an abstraction that only touches the lives of a few. Cheating is celebrity gossip, not one's own husband or wife hiding strange.
> 
> This is a bad threadjack... I write too much.
> 
> You're into sports, right? Lance Armstrong, great American hero and cheater, gotcha Lance. There is no comeback this time. And all those baseball players on steroids... nearly wrecked the nation's pastime.
> 
> But we digress and bore our readers.
> 
> What is LL to do? This week by the Atlantic with parents-in-law, WW and his two daughters. LL must take a stand, somehow. It must be a stand that LL feels comfortable with. ReGroup had a chance to exchange ideas over days and weeks, asking why, getting feedback. LL doesn't really trust us.
> 
> I think that when everybody is settled in, he should leave but perhaps instead of just going dark he should have a note in an envelope for his wife. That note should say that there are only two choices for her: work to save the marriage or divorce.
> 
> She has to go NC with all OM. He has to move in with her. She has to stop all dating. Turnover her passwords to FB, telephone, etc. She has to go to IC. They have to go to MC. If she actually were forced to do this on the second day of the reconnection holiday, maybe she would see that LL is not person who will put with infinite BS (choose either meaning).
> 
> The problem is that she a wild horse now.
> 
> If LL is firm and refuses to engage in anymore relationship analysis, there is an outside chance that she will change. The time for blame shifting is over now. Now she needs moral order.
> 
> LL demanded a kiss from his wife and he was surprised that she gave it him. But to his credit he knew her heart wasn't in it. If LL, lays down the non negotiable conditions for R, maybe she will of her own accord want to sleep with him by the end of the week. But LL should not chase her.
> 
> Things don't look good. But if LL has plan and sticks to it, at least he can say he tried.
> 
> BTW, Chuck did you read Sister Carrie in school. That is a novel that illustrated the consequences of cheating. It was a shocker in its time.


Not in public schools, TN is 51st in reading for a reason. If Guam was admitted to the union, we'd be 52nd


----------



## Chuck71

Wanted to get an objective opinion about your situation LL

After reading through the thread.....an odd synopsis...

"it appears he enjoys her sleeping with other men and being told about it. one question i would want to know is, is he a cuckold?"

note.....friend is female


----------



## LongWalk

Chuck71 said:


> Not in public schools, TN is 51st in reading for a reason. If Guam was admitted to the union, we'd be 52nd


I made a great road trip with my daughters last summer. Borrowed my brother's Volvo while they went off to Italy so that the family could fail to function down the home stretch. Still, it was nice of him offer it.

It was the first time this Northerner ventured into the South. Florida doesn't count. We drove through the mountains by the rivers big and small. We stopped and took iPhone pictures of dead snakes in road and the clotheslines with 8 pair of jean overalls. Bought fresh eggs from a young woman who tried give us a kitten. She lived across the street from Mr Thurgood.

My childhood was full of propaganda. The books in school about the true American heroes settling the US. Packed with lies. Only now did I bother to find out why the river through the university campus passes through a little town with an Indian name. He was war vet and tribal leader reduced alcoholism. In the late 1800s they told the tribe that could no longer live by the river. Deported them all. Nobody knows where the chief is buried but they renamed the town after him.

The propaganda against the losers in the Civil War was like background hum. The South was not a good place. The racism. The slavery. Ironic that now I can see how the capital of my state was deserted to decay because the middle class don't want to mix with the people who moved north after the War. They struck out and moved eastwards gentrifying the farm villages.

I'd rather live by shack by the side of the road in Kentucky than in one of these new gated communities. OK, I can't afford one of those mansions. Let's be truthful here. This is TAM.

Let's hope LL can sell this albatross and move closer to his daughters so that he can start repairing his life.

LL, your wife is not as special as you think. She and thousands of other cheaters are following their biological urges. They do not understand the road they travel. When you married her the deal was exclusivity. This may not be realistic, given human nature. However, this civilized custom, imperfect though it is, was the deal.

You are good in your field and you must come across women in work who know you are an able dude. If you had been on the prowl, you could have scored but you didn't think like that. Now that you wife has isolated and humiliated you, you have lost your sense of perspective. It will return.

As you regain your strength, your wife, and it looks unlikely that she has any idea how to leave the miserable path she is on, will look across the field to see you in a clean place on high ground. All she'll be able to do is ask herself why.


----------



## Chuck71

LongWalk said:


> I made a great road trip with my daughters last summer. Borrowed my brother's Volvo while they went off to Italy so that the family could fail to function down the home stretch. Still, it was nice of him offer it.
> 
> It was the first time this Northerner ventured into the South. Florida doesn't count. We drove through the mountains by the rivers big and small. We stopped and took iPhone pictures of dead snakes in road and the clotheslines with 8 pair of jean overalls. Bought fresh eggs from a young woman who tried give us a kitten. She lived across the street from Mr Thurgood.
> 
> My childhood was full of propaganda. The books in school about the true American heroes settling the US. Packed with lies. Only now did I bother to find out why the river through the university campus passes through a little town with an Indian name. He was war vet and tribal leader reduced alcoholism. In the late 1800s they told the tribe that could no longer live by the river. Deported them all. Nobody knows where the chief is buried but they renamed the town after him.
> 
> The propaganda against the losers in the Civil War was like background hum. The South was not a good place. The racism. The slavery. Ironic that now I can see how the capital of my state was deserted to decay because the middle class don't want to mix with the people who moved north after the War. They struck out and moved eastwards gentrifying the farm villages.
> 
> I'd rather live by shack by the side of the road in Kentucky than in one of these new gated communities. OK, I can't afford one of those mansions. Let's be truthful here. This is TAM.
> 
> Let's hope LL can sell this albatross and move closer to his daughters so that he can start repairing his life.
> 
> LL, your wife is not as special as you think. She and thousands of other cheaters are following their biological urges. They do not understand the road they travel. When you married her the deal was exclusivity. This may not be realistic, given human nature. However, this civilized custom, imperfect though it is, was the deal.
> 
> You are good in your field and you must come across women in work who know you are an able dude. If you had been on the prowl, you could have scored but you didn't think like that. Now that you wife has isolated and humiliated you, you have lost your sense of perspective. It will return.
> 
> As you regain your strength, your wife, and it looks unlikely that she has any idea how to leave the miserable path she is on, will look across the field to see you in a clean place on high ground. All she'll be able to do is ask herself why.



I hate to say this but racism is still alive in rural areas of TN. There are certain counties who have ZERO minorities living there. I live out in the country and would not trade it for a big city. I enjoy my privacy and the peace and quiet helps me to focus on writing. 

What is sad, most of the people who are racist are also the ones who will stop on side of road if they see a "local" in a ditch or have car trouble. A clear example of learned behavior. It is not as bad as thirty years ago but it has many generations to go.

The Cherokee homeland is very local. Andrew Jackson is portrayed as a saint in Nashville, TN and no one 'wants to remember' the Trail of Tears. Thanks to politicians and lawmakers, they simply define away the meaning of a word. George Carlin said it best, after these wars this was the meaning

WW1-shell-shocked
WW2-battle fatigue
Korea-operational exhaustion
Vietnam-post traumatic stress disorder

the intent and meaning is stripped away

The South was agrarian focused due to extended growing seasons but was left behind during the Industrial Revolutions. The South did make a late transition and by the 1980's were again left in the dust, this time to technology. As recent as the mid-90's a child in the South was told they could drop out of school and work in a factory. A basic education is all that was needed.

Education in the South was not taken seriously for centuries. Today, I taught kids who wanted to graduate and when I asked them if his / her parent(s) help them at home....they say no. I ask why.....child says momma and daddy dropped out of school in the 9th grade to go to work.....they never learned how to read.

My mom was the fourth of five children. She was the first to graduate high school. That was a big deal. But....this is where I speculate.....in 1971 most wives were SAHMs and husband worked....and they enjoyed a semi-lavish (for that time) life. Now both work and are struggling to make ends meet. American Dream......myth.

Sorry for the rant. If you are interested, I can extend this but you may not. BTW.... are you from the country of the 1847 Potato Famine?


----------



## LongWalk

Chuck71 said:


> Wanted to get an objective opinion about your situation LL
> 
> After reading through the thread.....an odd synopsis...
> 
> "*it appears he enjoys her sleeping with other men and being told about it. one question i would want to know is, is he a cuckold?*"
> 
> note.....friend is female


This is a real tough question, Chuck.

It's true that if you go the Internet you can read about people who swing and even stranger stuff. Men who volunteer to be locked up so their wives can cheat and tell them about it.

Whoever said people are simple?


----------



## Chuck71

Well.....about a month ago I eval'd a young guy

who was 'said' to be married to Eva Gabor and Marilyn Monroe

well guy had good taste at least

To make things pass more smooth we all claim a fav psycho

mine is Richard Chase

if you read to much into things

it can drive you bat sh!t crazy as Group calls it!


----------



## Frostflower

How are things going, Lost?


----------



## LongWalk

Group's wife must be a stunning beauty, otherwise she never would have gotten away with all this stuff. Group started out at about the same time as LL. If they had run together LL would probably be in the same position.

I asked Group if he thought about engaging his wife in a slight discussion about what she meant by fighting for him. But Group and Mavash ignored it. The R time is over really. She is too narcissistic to understand why Group rocks her world now. I'll bet if group chased her she'd dump the OM, but then he'd volunteering for unremorseful crazy. If she doesn't get it, then it's hopeless.

His wife, like LL's, is into the counseling stuff. Working with dysfunction attracts disfunction. Look at me, haha.


----------



## LongWalk

Frostflower said:


> How are things going, Lost?


Probably the best thing that can happen is that he gets mad. But he is making progress.


----------



## Chuck71

LongWalk said:


> Group's wife must be a stunning beauty, otherwise she never would have gotten away with all this stuff. Group started out at about the same time as LL. If they had run together LL would probably be in the same position.
> 
> I asked Group if he thought about engaging his wife in a slight discussion about what she meant by fighting for him. But Group and Mavash ignored it. The R time is over really. She is too narcissistic to understand why Group rocks her world now. I'll bet if group chased her she'd dump the OM, but then he'd volunteering for unremorseful crazy. If she doesn't get it, then it's hopeless.
> 
> His wife, like LL's, is into the counseling stuff. Working with dysfunction attracts disfunction. Look at me, haha.



Group went to 50k and saw things for what they were

would you R with QL?

"I think" what turned him off was QLs willingness

to use D4 as a barganing chip


----------



## Chuck71

LongWalk said:


> Probably the best thing that can happen is that he gets mad. But he is making progress.


There are some guys who pine for months

and in one day say, F-it

and walk away as sure as the night sky

who knows


----------



## ReGroup

LongWalk said:


> Group's wife must be a stunning beauty, otherwise she never would have gotten away with all this stuff. Group started out at about the same time as LL. If they had run together LL would probably be in the same position.
> 
> I asked Group if he thought about engaging his wife in a slight discussion about what she meant by fighting for him. But Group and Mavash ignored it. The R time is over really. She is too narcissistic to understand why Group rocks her world now. I'll bet if group chased her she'd dump the OM, but then he'd volunteering for unremorseful crazy. If she doesn't get it, then it's hopeless.
> 
> His wife, like LL's, is into the counseling stuff. Working with dysfunction attracts disfunction. Look at me, haha.


Sorry LW, I didn't mean to ignore it - I got caught up.

She's remarkably pretty, intelligent, funny, professionally driven, blah, blah, blah...
But she has the emotional intelligence of a Tazmanian Devil.

She's been in IC for a couple of years... As you can see - she probably found an IC that is just validating her thoughts

Why I don't ask for "R"? Because for the first time in a long time, I am in a position of strength. I don't want to lose that momentum - I am NOT a finished product. 

Jedi in training. 

If we were to restart anything at this time; I'd end up in the same place as I was last year, only probably worse.


----------



## Conrad

ReGroup said:


> Sorry LW, I didn't mean to ignore it - I got caught up.
> 
> She's remarkably pretty, intelligent, funny, professionally driven, blah, blah, blah...
> But she has the emotional intelligence of a Tazmanian Devil.
> 
> She's been in IC for a couple of years... As you can see - she probably found an IC that is just validating her thoughts
> 
> Why I don't ask for "R"? Because for the first time in a long time, I am in a position of strength. I don't want to lose that momentum - I am NOT a finished product.
> 
> Jedi in training.
> 
> If we were to restart anything at this time; I'd end up in the same place as I was last year, only probably worse.


I respectfully disagree.

But, you won't be starting anything unless she drops the abusive behavior.

She clings to that like a rug.


----------



## Chuck71

she is not "33" yet

maybe.............would be fairy tale ending

but you are in NYC not Hollywierd


----------



## LongWalk

Chuck71 said:


> I hate to say this but racism is still alive in rural areas of TN. There are certain counties who have ZERO minorities living there. I live out in the country and would not trade it for a big city. I enjoy my privacy and the peace and quiet helps me to focus on writing.
> 
> What is sad, most of the people who are racist are also the ones who will stop on side of road if they see a "local" in a ditch or have car trouble. A clear example of learned behavior. It is not as bad as thirty years ago but it has many generations to go.
> 
> The Cherokee homeland is very local. Andrew Jackson is portrayed as a saint in Nashville, TN and no one 'wants to remember' the Trail of Tears. Thanks to politicians and lawmakers, they simply define away the meaning of a word. George Carlin said it best, after these wars this was the meaning
> 
> WW1-shell-shocked
> WW2-battle fatigue
> Korea-operational exhaustion
> Vietnam-post traumatic stress disorder
> 
> the intent and meaning is stripped away
> 
> The South was agrarian focused due to extended growing seasons but was left behind during the Industrial Revolutions. The South did make a late transition and by the 1980's were again left in the dust, this time to technology. As recent as the mid-90's a child in the South was told they could drop out of school and work in a factory. A basic education is all that was needed.
> 
> Education in the South was not taken seriously for centuries. Today, I taught kids who wanted to graduate and when I asked them if his / her parent(s) help them at home....they say no. I ask why.....child says momma and daddy dropped out of school in the 9th grade to go to work.....they never learned how to read.
> 
> My mom was the fourth of five children. She was the first to graduate high school. That was a big deal. But....this is where I speculate.....in 1971 most wives were SAHMs and husband worked....and they enjoyed a semi-lavish (for that time) life. Now both work and are struggling to make ends meet. American Dream......myth.
> 
> Sorry for the rant. If you are interested, I can extend this but you may not. BTW.... are you from the country of the 1847 Potato Famine?


My mother came from a country close to the land of 1847 potato famine. So good guess. She had 16 siblings. Not all of them survived into adulthood. One half brother died in Normandy. They had hard lives. Education was not given them. My mother escaped by becoming a nurse.

The importance of education is very much related to cultural values. The South was populated by the poor people from Britain. The question is how do you correct a country wedded to myths about itself? This sounds like a political question but I am sure you agree it's much deeper.

America and other countries are cannibalizing the institution of family with consumerism and idealism. It is natural for people to be confused. LL has been fed a lot of lies about the importance of individuality and self fulfillment, probably his poor wife, too.

My parents, in their 80s have young lab, that dog has steadily expanded its boundaries. My mother had it locked up in crate each night. Now it wanders the whole house. I am sure it has poached food off the kitchen table whenever it has had a chance. It's a lab. It is what it is.

When LL was unable to enforce boundaries his wife lost control. And he is still negotiating to preserve her already non-existent self respect.

There is another relatively recent thread... BlushingBull, I think, the guy is ex marine cement, gravel truck driver. He caught his wife, apparently she had some experience swinging in her first marriage, scréwing the tattooed rental management handiman.

He tracked them down confronted them. Beat the guy up, not too bad. Got attacked by his wife, arrested. He directly went dark. Left town found a job. Filed for divorce. Stbxw's son was mad at his mother and is on step dad's side. The guy will not talk with stbxw because he won't buy a crap R from a woman incapable of remorse. He has little formal education but plenty of common sense.

People posted about the karma bus. What's that, he wondered? Someone explained and he said got it. 

I am sure that the more educated and intellectual people are the more they are paralyzed infidelity, if they buy the life is all about choices. A walk away wife or a two timing husband need to presented with a tough choice, cheat and it's over. Want to reconcile? OK, but not while living separately and dating. The truck driver guy would never have bought the _I need to move for a little bit to regain passion for you_ line. Academics? I'll bet that line works pretty well. It is karma for the spouse to cheat and for everyone to agonize.


----------



## LongWalk

ReGroup said:


> Sorry LW, I didn't mean to ignore it - I got caught up.
> 
> She's remarkably pretty, intelligent, funny, professionally driven, blah, blah, blah...
> But she has the emotional intelligence of a Tazmanian Devil.
> 
> She's been in IC for a couple of years... As you can see - she probably found an IC that is just validating her thoughts
> 
> Why I don't ask for "R"? Because for the first time in a long time, I am in a position of strength. I don't want to lose that momentum - I am NOT a finished product.
> 
> Jedi in training.
> 
> If we were to restart anything at this time; I'd end up in the same place as I was last year, only probably worse.


LL,

Here is a lesson for you and everyone for that matter. Group could probably get a his wife to R now, but he knows it is too early to make such a move. Furthermore, he is aware that this is simply an option. Before she rejected him. Now the tables have turned considerably.

Your wife and you must go through a process. Without it R is doomed. Your wife must earn you back. And you must be in better shape. You cannot take her scrambled eggs for brains and inject into your own brain to become compatible again. The result will be two plates of scrambled eggs. Your daughters will be sitting there wondering how they ended up in such a mess.


----------



## Chuck71

it helps that QL is living in a fantasy

and bangs POSOM.....who by sheer chance

can only get lucky if he yells "you are fabulous"


----------



## Chuck71

Each war has it's own horror. WW1 was more trench warfare and hard to imagine today but, sides would fight six months....lose 60k soldiers and maybe gain twenty yards in position. WW1 was not as much global as WW2 but the severity of the combat in Europe alone was 'inhuman'. 

My grandfather volunteered in WW2. He was sent to Europe in '43. He was a mechanic....suited him well being he owned a car lot back home. Was trapped behind Axis lines and was POW. I recall stories of grandma cursing late at night. He hid out in an abandoned bunker....very little food. He would not be found for 35 days. Luckily he uncovered a cache of fine liquor. Long story short, he returned home. He brought home a new vice....liquor.

Sadly he was born in 1920 but died...about the time I learned to run (I skipped walking). He and his brother would throw week long drunks at his business. Maybe what he saw in WW2 he wanted to run from....honestly I could not blame him if he did. Sometimes I reflect and see grandpa in the bunker, near starvation and he picks up a box.....(insert He11bound He11raiser). 

WW2 ended in 1945 but........did it? Recently the last WW1 veteran died but the backlash is still seen.


----------



## lostLove77

Frostflower said:


> How are things going, Lost?


Hi Frost,
So they left this afternoon. Had an amazing yet conflicted time. Last night we went dancing along the bay and she opened up to me in a lo of ways. She reached out to hug and kiss me like never before during this whole thing and smiled more than I've seen in a very long time. 

However the whole time I knew she wasn't fully committed and we did speak about US a few times. She spoke to having spent the past months ins limbo and enjoying it. Anytime there was something she didn't like she just took her ball and went home. 

She thanked me for showing her the growth and work I've been doing personally. She spoke to finally doing some soul searching because she's been avoiding doing any thinking. I'd be fooling myself if I said I didn't have some hope after the connections we had this week but at the same time there was yet to be any hard movement towards commuting to working on our relationship. So, overall I can't say if it was a positive few days or not but I had a lot of fun with her and there felt to be true affection, particularly last night. 

Chuck, what is QL?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lostLove77

LongWalk said:


> What of interest came out if the quiz game?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Walk, we played this a bit last night at the club as well. At one point she broke down in tears and said she was crying from happiness over the good from the past. It was heart breaking and confusing at the same time. So many mixed emotions from both of us. 

Anyway, hope you're feeling well Walk.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LongWalk

Hii LL,

Good to see you have survived the truncated week. Have to meet a video guy for coffee later this morning, we've got an assignment to work together. I have a feeling we are going to be sent to see an ecological disaster that is going to give me an uneasy conscience. Will be interesting.

Daughter 18 is going away this weekend. She and another girl are chasing the same boy. He's a bit older, very nice guy. Was the captain of their team at a competition. I wonder if he is interested in either of them. While she is gone I will go bike riding with D15, who is sleeping too much and doesn't really have program this summer.

Here is an blog article you might find interesting. Also, here is a book review (Moxy and Frost, I would be interested in what you think, too. I have feeling I already know what Chucky will say).

After this confusing but hopeful weekend what will you now do about the divorce?

Are the girls still with you?

What did her parents say to you? Did you ever have any conversation with them when she wasn't around?

Why did she have to get back home for the weekend? She is clearly still keen on limbo... but are you keen on limbo?

Two hard questions:
1) Do you think she is going to be having sex with another man on Friday, Saturday or Sunday?
2) Did you go to the beach together at all? Was she in her swimsuit? How did she look? How could you cope with it?


----------



## moxy

Not to thread jack, but to answer the questions, posed, I'll say this:

Regarding the blog: I agree with 9, 14, and 15. This list overall sounds a lot like stbxh, but not really what most drew me to him or kept my interest -- those things were magnified by the items I've enumerated above. What I needed from stbxh was to be emotionally understood by him, effed well and often, and secure in the belief that he could be strong for me when I was too lost in my chaos; for those things (from him), I'd have overlooked everything that upset me, but different people have different needs.

Regarding the book review: I skimmed it but haven't yet read it all. Both rotating polyandry and serial monogamy sound sensible; neither was my first choice after meeting stbxh, but before him, I'd have probably chosen those ways. Marriage and domesticity held zero appeal for me, except when in love, but giving in to them warped my identity. Langley's thesis is interesting; four years sounds about right to me, as that's the longest anyone had held my interest (friend or lover) except stbxh. Relationships can be recharged, though, instead of just disposed of, IMO -- if the people involved care enough. I believe marriage can be a great thing, but marriages are not identical.

Limbo sucks LL. Things sound confusing for you, still. Consider changing tactics by way of the 180, yet?

Have you tried thinking about how your dynamic with WW fits into the blog or the book review? Not that it must, but it's an interesting point of reference for analyzing your situation, don't you think?


----------



## LongWalk

I like you, Moxy. You are a politically incorrect truth seeker. I hope LL gives your response the thought it deserves. I didn't understand whether you ever saw your eventual ex to be husband fight? It's intriguing that the writing instructor (are you tenure tracked now?) fell for an MMA jock.

The high school English teacher who had big influence over my life, i.e., the only positive male figure with whom I bonded, once said that to a professional athlete was the most fulfilling life possible. Success and failure were tangible.

He worked on his tennis strokes by himself with a clothes basket full of worn balls. He suffered teaching Huckleberry Finn to students who hadn't read the book. Once he was asking us what a passage meant. The lack of response irritated him but he rephrased the question, keeping the impatience under control.

After the third time he was getting pissy. (Maybe his wife wasn't having sex with him, haha, she was very alpha).

Note: all the students admired and liked him he was jock and had a wicked sense of humor.

"Come on," he said, voice rising.

Still silence.

I blurted out the answer.

"Right! LongWalk," he barked.

The class sighed in relief.

Suddenly for once, I, the unloved one, had scored the touchdown or got the game winning base hit. I could like myself, not enough or completely. Still, it was some permanent on the map of a land that was full burnt forest and poisoned waters. That moment in my life has given me strength. Not enough apparently but even small triumphs matter in the business of survival. 

From LL's description of the weekend, do you think its fair to say that she got a tremendous emotional recharge? The limbic brain beneath her rationalization hamster is going to pulse now, don't you think?

For readers, who are just joining us, LL's wife was recently not feeling so hot. She wept to him on the telephone that POS1 was angry that she had cheated with other men. She even spoke about her inability to control texting, i.e., the proof of her infidelity was probably sexting, photos, videos and text.

Now all of this is suddenly not bothering her anymore. Three days of playing in the Atlantic and basking in the sun of LL's unrequited love has her ready to resume the chase. That is my call, LL, I'll stick with it until some facts to the contrary emerge.


----------



## Frostflower

LongWalk said:


> Hii LL,
> 
> Good to see you have survived the truncated week. Have to meet a video guy for coffee later this morning, we've got an assignment to work together. I have a feeling we are going to be sent to see an ecological disaster that is going to give me an uneasy conscience. Will be interesting.
> 
> Daughter 18 is going away this weekend. She and another girl are chasing the same boy. He's a bit older, very nice guy. Was the captain of their team at a competition. I wonder if he is interested in either of them. While she is gone I will go bike riding with D15, who is sleeping too much and doesn't really have program this summer.
> 
> Here is an blog article you might find interesting. Also, here is a book review (Moxy and Frost, I would be interested in what you think, too. I have feeling I already know what Chucky will say).
> 
> After this confusing but hopeful weekend what will you now do about the divorce?
> 
> Are the girls still with you?
> 
> What did her parents say to you? Did you ever have any conversation with them when she wasn't around?
> 
> Why did she have to get back home for the weekend? She is clearly still keen on limbo... but are you keen on limbo?
> 
> Two hard questions:
> 1) Do you think she is going to be having sex with another man on Friday, Saturday or Sunday?
> 2) Did you go to the beach together at all? Was she in her swimsuit? How did she look? How could you cope with it?


I will look at the book report when I have more time. As for the blog.......seriously? 

Never say “I love you first”...... because expressing how you feel honestly when you feel it definitely has no part in a relationship.

Return 2 texts/phone calls for every three of mine.....yep, because loving, committed relationships are all about keeping score. 

'They in fact want to subordinate themselves to a worthy man’s life purpose, to help him achieve that purpose with their feminine support, and to follow the path he lays out.’ Definitely, ‘cause my pathetic little life purpose isn’t worth anything.


'Flirt with other women in front of her. Do not dissuade other women from flirting with you. Women will never admit this but jealousy excites them. The thought of you turning on another woman will arouse her sexually. No girl wants a man that no other woman wants. The partner who harnesses the gale storm of jealousy controls the direction of the relationship.’ Well, let’s see. By saying that no woman will ever admit that jealousy excites them, you have effectively nullified in the minds of anyone who believes this any response I would give that disagrees with it. So, guess I shall have to agree. Yep, seeing my man flirt with other women excites me......right out the door. I have too much self-respect to be with a man who disrespects me like that.

Never compliment a girl on her looks. Gee, I hate it when men do that!

Further advanced training to reach this state of unawed Zen transcendence is to sleep with many MANY attractive women *Yep, I for one want a man who sleeps around. Men who engage in meaningless sex are such a turn-on.*(try to avoid sleeping with a lot of ugly women Further advanced training to reach this state of unawed Zen transcendence is to sleep with many MANY attractive women (try to avoid sleeping with a lot of ugly women *Love men who judge women by their looks. *if you don’t want to regress). 

'Touching a woman inappropriately on the first date will get you further with her than not touching her at all.' Definitely, ‘cause you know.......all us women are ****s.


For Heaven’s sake. Is this the advice you would give to your daughters’ boyfriends?


----------



## Wazza

Frostflower said:


> I will look at the book report when I have more time. As for the blog.......seriously?
> 
> Never say “I love you first”...... because expressing how you feel honestly when you feel it definitely has no part in a relationship.
> 
> Return 2 texts/phone calls for every three of mine.....yep, because loving, committed relationships are all about keeping score.
> 
> 'They in fact want to subordinate themselves to a worthy man’s life purpose, to help him achieve that purpose with their feminine support, and to follow the path he lays out.’ Definitely, ‘cause my pathetic little life purpose isn’t worth anything.
> 
> 
> 'Flirt with other women in front of her. Do not dissuade other women from flirting with you. Women will never admit this but jealousy excites them. The thought of you turning on another woman will arouse her sexually. No girl wants a man that no other woman wants. The partner who harnesses the gale storm of jealousy controls the direction of the relationship.’ Well, let’s see. By saying that no woman will ever admit that jealousy excites them, you have effectively nullified in the minds of anyone who believes this any response I would give that disagrees with it. So, guess I shall have to agree. Yep, seeing my man flirt with other women excites me......right out the door. I have too much self-respect to be with a man who disrespects me like that.
> 
> Never compliment a girl on her looks. Gee, I hate it when men do that!
> 
> Further advanced training to reach this state of unawed Zen transcendence is to sleep with many MANY attractive women *Yep, I for one want a man who sleeps around. Men who engage in meaningless sex are such a turn-on.*(try to avoid sleeping with a lot of ugly women Further advanced training to reach this state of unawed Zen transcendence is to sleep with many MANY attractive women (try to avoid sleeping with a lot of ugly women *Love men who judge women by their looks. *if you don’t want to regress).
> 
> 'Touching a woman inappropriately on the first date will get you further with her than not touching her at all.' Definitely, ‘cause you know.......all us women are ****s.
> 
> 
> For Heaven’s sake. Is this the advice you would give to your daughters’ boyfriends?


FrostFlower, you clearly just don't understand women. But keep reading, you will learn....


----------



## LongWalk

Frost,

I think that there are many aspects of human behavior that follow patterns. If you do not agree with these observations have you an alternative set? That works?

Once I worked as a tour guide in foreign country. The tourists came from the US and Canada. I was around 24. Women wanted to sleep with me on every trip. I never had had such easy success with women. In retrospect it was my position of authority. I was the leader. I spoke the exotic language of the natives, etc. It made me appealing. Plus, they were on vacation and receptive to the idea romance.

The women were not slüts. One was shy pharmacist from Canada with little sexual experience. Another was a social worker from New York who was on the trip with her husband. She went and asked his permission to have sex with me! They married young and had an open relationship. Twenty-five years later she contacted me on FB. Still married to the same guy. They were happy. Had two grown sons. Strange but if I looked them up in NY with my daughters in two we could all go out and eat lunch together without any drama.
So life doesn't conform to all our notions.

However, for LL, he must change his wife's attitude towards him and he needs to move her liminal brain. How? He must become more attractive raising his sex ranking. How?

Not by being a crab bait for her fishing affairs.


----------



## moxy

Frost -- Well said! I had hoped it was sarcastic because aside from the parts that did appeal to me (that I mentioned), the rest were exactly the reasons stbxh and I had major problems. This would be excellent "what not to do if you want your partner to feel loved and respected" advice.


----------



## moxy

LW, I really don't think that by emulating the negative elements on this blog, LL will have a better chance with his WW. She seems to think he is selfish and unwilling to give her what she wants. As a result, she's getting it elsewhere. (Not sure how true her evaluation is, of course, she sounds like a cake eater having a MLC). Being more of a cad will not make him more attractive to her. If he wants a chance with her, three things need to happen: 1) she has to be open to it and no longer cheating, 2) he has to have changed in ways that address her reasons for checking out of the relationship, and 3) he needs more strength and self-confidence that is based on his achievements and not on her approval.

By the way, I had thought that blog post was just being cheeky in how it said "don't be needy, be confident instead" and did not think that was literal advice. I found it amusing. maybe I misunderstood. If that is actual "to-do" advice, I'd say that I disagree entirely; it will attract women who are broken in their sense of self or have self-destructive impulses.

LL, I'd urge you to do the opposite of what's in that blog -- except, do be emotionally and sexually attentive and do be strong and available when your partner needs it. That kind of behavior will not attract a long-term partner and it won't bring his W back, but it might work for done NSA action, if that's what LL wants. I strongly suspect that the reason LL's WW is hooking up with losers is because she doesn't want to be with anyone in the same way she was with LL and knows that the POSOMs are just playthings that she won't be tempted to work it out with long-term, temps.


----------



## Conrad

moxy said:


> LW, I really don't think that by emulating the negative elements on this blog, LL will have a better chance with his WW. She seems to think he is selfish and unwilling to give her what she wants. As a result, she's getting it elsewhere. (Not sure how true her evaluation is, of course, she sounds like a cake eater having a MLC). Being more of a cad will not make him more attractive to her. If he wants a chance with her, three things need to happen: 1) she has to be open to it and no longer cheating, 2) he has to have changed in ways that address her reasons for checking out of the relationship, and 3) he needs more strength and self-confidence that is based on his achievements and not on her approval.
> 
> By the way, I had though that blog post was just being cheeky in how it said "don't be needy, be confident instead" and did not think that was literal advice. If that is actual "to-do" advice, I'd say that I disagree; it will attract women who are broken in their sense of self or have self-destructive impulses. LL, I'd urge you to do the opposite if what's in that blog -- except, do be emotionally and sexually attentive and do be strong and available when your partner needs it


Mox,

You don't think elements of being a cad and "3" are the same thing?


----------



## moxy

Remind me what 3 is, again...?


----------



## lostLove77

I must admit that the blog article sickened me except for the point of connecting with a woman emotionally. This was my biggest sin and brought poison to our marriage. 

I could not get through but a few paragraphs of the review. I know his was not a biological issue but purely and emotional one. 

What a dicotomy of emotions. I was overjoyed during the week and now the silence of her not here is deafening. I hope to pull through these dark emotions but it is a heavy few days. I write to vent and know this is my own work, yet at the same time I hope this visit may have out some kind of spark deep within her. I DO NOT KNOW WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## moxy

Sorry, half asleep. You meant my own item 3. 

No, I think the stuff in this blog is disrespectful, but there is a difference between being disrespectful and being detached. I don't think the blog list encourages detachment but actual manipulation of someone's vulnerabilities.


----------



## moxy

LL, you have to detach from her. All that means is that you have to stop making her the center if your world. She can't be the center of your world: it's too much pressure on her, she isn't around, and she will never be able to lean on you if you are always leaning on her. 

Having a healthy relationship means that both people are able to be independent, but come together as peers, not that one is dependent on the other all the time. Your problem, IMO, isn't that you love her bit that you're addicted to her and dependent on her. She isn't going to feel like an equal if she's the source if your esteem right? And anyway, her behavior right now is sordid, so you shouldn't go chasing her or trying to change her. Let her sort herself out on her own. Go sort yourself out, too! Be strong.


----------



## LongWalk

lostLove77 said:


> I must admit that the blog article sickened me except for the point of connecting with a woman emotionally. This was my biggest sin and brought poison to our marriage.
> 
> The point of such an article is not to train oneself to be a vulgar, callous manipulator of feminine emotion simply to get laid. Most men could not execute these rules in real life.
> 
> There are many cruel facts about relations between men and women. If a man loses his job, his wife or girlfriend is likely to stop loving him. This not a conscious mercenary decision but a emotional response to the loss of security. This is a pattern. A man who loses his job gets depressed and becomes emotionally needy will lose his wife even faster.
> 
> Being emotionally in touch with a woman what does that mean?Is a man supposed to be able read all of a woman's moods and react correctly? When is a man just being himself enough?
> 
> I could not get through but a few paragraphs of the review. I know his was not a biological issue but purely and emotional one.
> 
> What are emotions but brain chemistry?
> 
> What a dicotomy of emotions. I was overjoyed during the week and now the silence of her not here is deafening. I hope to pull through these dark emotions but it is a heavy few days. I write to vent and know this is my own work, yet at the same time I hope this visit may have out some kind of spark deep within her. *I DO NOT KNOW WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What is going to happen is clear. She got an enormous positive charge out the vacation. She saw that despite her promiscuity, you still love her. You support her finding herself and are prepared to wait.

You will continue to be a good father, allowing her to schedule her social life. She is now energized to develop relations with other men.

She was worried about divorce and custody battle but that fight has now left you. She may go on with it anyway. If she is getting more confident about her ability get commitment from Baldy for a LTR, she may wish to divorce you.

LL, when Baldy helped her pick up her car. She promised him she would not have sex with you and she kept that promise. She rushed back on Thursday and is quite likely in bed with him or some other guy. 

At one point she was talking about ending her self actualization because the emotional brutality of it but now it is all okay again.

I don't think she has any intention of remaining true to Baldy if doesn't practice the 16 Commandments of Poon.



> 1) she has to be open to it and no longer cheating, 2) he has to have changed in ways that address her reasons for checking out of the relationship, and 3) he needs more strength and self-confidence that is based on his achievements and not on her approval.


Moxy is right about one, two and three. The order in which they are most likely to happen is LL detaches, gains strength. This will give him a chance to accomplish point two. Point one can only happen once she sees 2 and 3. However, they will interact less for 2 and 3 to happen which is why the relationship unlikely to recover in any new form.

What did her parents say to you? Did you have any chance to learn of their worries?


----------



## Frostflower

Wazza said:


> FrostFlower, you clearly just don't understand women. But keep reading, you will learn....


Apparently I don’t, Wazza. But I’m sure there will those here who will continue to try and ‘enlighten’ me.


----------



## Frostflower

LongWalk said:


> Frost,
> 
> I think that there are many aspects of human behavior that follow patterns. If you do not agree with these observations have you an alternative set? That works?
> 
> Once I worked as a tour guide in foreign country. The tourists came from the US and Canada. I was around 24. Women wanted to sleep with me on every trip. I never had had such easy success with women. In retrospect it was my position of authority. I was the leader. I spoke the exotic language of the natives, etc. It made me appealing. Plus, they were on vacation and receptive to the idea romance.
> 
> The women were not slüts. One was shy pharmacist from Canada with little sexual experience. Another was a social worker from New York who was on the trip with her husband. She went and asked his permission to have sex with me! They married young and had an open relationship. Twenty-five years later she contacted me on FB. Still married to the same guy. They were happy. Had two grown sons. Strange but if I looked them up in NY with my daughters in two we could all go out and eat lunch together without any drama.
> So life doesn't conform to all our notions.
> 
> However, for LL, he must change his wife's attitude towards him and he needs to move her liminal brain. How? He must become more attractive raising his sex ranking. How?
> 
> Not by being a crab bait for her fishing affairs.


LW, patterns exist throughout nature. The fault lies in extrapolating ‘patterns’ from a limited sample. The women you cite are hardly representative of all women. Both you and the blogger seem to feel it is all right to recommend that these so-called ‘commandments' be applied to all woman. I resent my entire sex being looked at through such narrow lenses. Like Lost, I find the blog sickening. I will add ‘insulting’ to that description. 


Lost cannot change his wife’s attitude toward him. All he can change is himself.


----------



## Frostflower

moxy said:


> Frost -- Well said! I had hoped it was sarcastic because aside from the parts that did appeal to me (that I mentioned), the rest were exactly the reasons stbxh and I had major problems. This would be excellent "what not to do if you want your partner to feel loved and respected" advice.


Thank you Moxy. LW seems to think very well of you. Perhaps your words will carry some weight with him.


----------



## LongWalk

Frostflower said:


> Thank you Moxy. LW seems to think very well of you. Perhaps your words will carry some weight with him.


Moxy is well loved.


----------



## Frostflower

One last thing:

_If a man loses his job, his wife or girlfriend is likely to stop loving him. _

Is it really necessary to make statement after statement or post links to blogs and articles that makes most of womankind look like shallow beings with liminal brains?


----------



## LongWalk

> LW, patterns exist throughout nature. The fault lies in extrapolating ‘patterns’ from a limited sample. The women you cite are hardly representative of all women. Both you and the blogger seem to feel it is all right to recommend that these so-called ‘commandments' be applied to all woman. I resent my entire sex being looked at through such narrow lenses. Like Lost, I find the blog sickening. I will add ‘insulting’ to that description.
> 
> *Lost cannot change his wife’s attitude toward him. All he can change is himself*.


The institution of marriage with a demand for monogamy is recognition that men and women when given the opportunity would like to change partners. Men want more than one at the same time. Women want to replace them. Previously we discussed the high level of divorce. Most divorces are initiated by wives. That is because 1) they are bored with the husband 2) their husbands do not meet their needs. See Wikipedia stats below.

I do not recommend following the blog advice in some dehumanizing fashion. What is or isn't insulting is often a subjective matter. If a man invites a woman to dinner with the expectation of sex as a payoff, that can be insulting. But if a woman enjoyed having dinner with a man and they had sex, then there was no insult, although the behavior was identical.

What is certain is that if a man and woman go out to dinner and the woman pays for herself or both of them, sex is less likely to happen and the woman is likely to dismiss the man as a potential partner. This is a pattern.

If man wants to have sex with a woman and out of blue directly reaches for her vagina, she will likely be angry. If holds her hand or makes some other physical contact first he can gauge the waters to find out if the interest mutual. For an older man to advise a younger to hold hands first when seeking sex is that a recommendation to be manipulative and insulting? There is no simple answer to this.

Honesty and integrity are very important. LL, we believe has these two principles close to heart. His wife clearly does not when it comes to herself. However, she hopes that LL will continue to be as he is, although it harmful to him. That to me is purposeful cruelty.

I don't believe she is evil. She is weak and she is following instincts. For LL to master the situation, he must understand her behavior from an biological perspective.

Her behavior is insulting to him.



> "Rate of divorce" usually refers the number of divorces that occur in the population during a given period. However it is also used in common parlance to refer to the likelihood of a given marriage ending in divorce (as opposed to the death of a spouse).
> 
> In 2002 (latest survey data as of 2012),[13] 29% of first marriages among women aged 15–44 were disrupted (ended in separation, divorce or annulment) within 10 years.[14] Beyond the 10-year window, population survey data is lacking, but forecasts and estimates provide some understanding. It is commonly claimed that half of all marriages in the United States eventually end in divorce, an estimate possibly based on the fact that in any given year, the number of marriages is about twice the number of divorces.[15] Using 1995 data, National Survey of Family Growth forecast in 2002 a 43% chance that first marriages among women aged 15–44 would be disrupted within 15 years.[13] More recently, having spoken with academics and National Survey of Family Growth representatives, *PolitiFact.com estimated in 2012 that the lifelong probability of a marriage ending in divorce is 40%–50%*.[16]


----------



## Frostflower

LongWalk said:


> The institution of marriage with a demand for monogamy is recognition that men and women when given the opportunity would like to change partners. *Men want more than one at the same time. Women want to replace them. * These are theories, not facts.Previously we discussed the high level of divorce. *Most divorces are initiated by wives. That is because 1) they are bored with the husband 2) their husbands do not meet their needs. See Wikipedia stats below.
> * None of this is substantiated by the Wikipedia ’stats’ below.
> 
> I do not recommend following the blog advice in some dehumanizing fashion. The blog is dehumanizing advice.What is or isn't insulting is often a subjective matter. If a man invites a woman to dinner with the expectation of sex as a payoff, that can be insulting. But if a woman enjoyed having dinner with a man and they had sex, then there was no insult, although the behavior was identical. The behavior is only identical if the first scenario ends in mutually consensual sex with the woman consenting because she wants to have sex, not because she feels obligated or pressured. In the first instance, if the man let the woman know his motive, then yes, it is insulting. In the second, if neither one had an expectation of a sexual payoff for dinner, then there is no insult in that sense. A man letting a woman know that he expects sex because he paid for dinner and a man and woman having sex because they both want to, are two very different scenarios with tow different sets of behavior.
> 
> 
> What is certain is that if a man and woman go out to dinner and the woman pays for herself or both of them, sex is less likely to happen and the woman is likely to dismiss the man as a potential partner. This is a pattern. Its certain. Really?!
> 
> If man wants to have sex with a woman and out of blue directly reaches for her vagina, she will likely be angry. *If holds her hand or makes some other physical contact first he can gauge the waters to find out if the interest mutual. For an older man to advise a younger to hold hands first when seeking sex is that a recommendation to be manipulative and insulting? * The so-called ‘commandments recommend touching a woman inappropriately, not holding hands. There is no simple answer to this.
> 
> Honesty and integrity are very important. LL, we believe has these two principles close to heart. His wife clearly does not when it comes to herself. However, she hopes that LL will continue to be as he is, although it harmful to him. That to me is purposeful cruelty.
> 
> I don't believe she is evil. She is weak and she is following instincts. For LL to master the situation, he must understand her behavior from an biological perspective. Too simplistic. There are other things at play here beside biology.
> 
> Her behavior is insulting to him.


 This I agree with.


Not sure why some of my comments are blue and others are not.


----------



## Onmyway

lostLove77 said:


> This lead to her saying she was still friends and such with this guy she had her emotional (and later while separated possible physical) affair. No relationship but she would always consider him a good friend.


I haven't read your entire thread yet, I will comment when I do, but I could not let this one go, so I apologize if it has been hit on already.

The "good friend" statement is a ploy, she really means that she wants him around just in case things really will work out between them.

And "later while separated possible PA"? I can almost guarantee that it went PA before your separation. My W acted much the same, we eventually separated, but it was after her EA/PA, she also wanted to keep him as a "friend", even though at that point he dumped her, though he still hung out with her. My wife's AP was using her for sex, and your WW's AP was using her for sex. neither AP wanted the emotional aspect, which was why they kept us around.


----------



## Chaparral

Whew, after seeing LW banned it looks dangerous to comment.


----------



## Conrad

Chaparral said:


> Whew, after seeing LW banned it looks dangerous to comment.


Happens to the best of us


----------



## Wazza

Frostflower said:


> Apparently I don’t, Wazza. But I’m sure there will those here who will continue to try and ‘enlighten’ me.


Being serious for a moment......I found the lot pretty silly as well. There are some concepts in it that I think have grains of truth, but even when that occurs the treatment is so simplistic as to be useless and even downright dangerous as a tool to understand the real world.

It's one of the things to be vey aware of in TAM. Human relationships are exceedingly complicated, and there is rarely a single recipe to follow that will guarantee a desires outcome.

Edit : it is also worth noting that the blog list is intended to manipulate women into casual sex, not relationships.


----------



## Tron

Chap, unless you are spending some time on Regroup's thread, I think you will be OK. Ms. RG's foul mouth is going to have the privilege of being responsible for the most bannings in TAM history. 

On a more serious note, the blog was left up on an ipad and went down really well in the Tron household too.  Provocative and slightly entertaining, but...rules to live by...eh, not so much. 

Sorry, Conrad. She read some of it and was, um, shall we say "not amused". 2 months later and we are all good again

LW, what I was able to read of the book review was sobering...especially as it relates to this thread.


----------



## Wazza

Tron said:


> LW, what I was able to read of the book review was sobering...especially as it relates to this thread.


I have read the Langley book. I would not describe it as a scholarly work, but it was thought provoking.

A synopsis here...LL see if this resonates for you. I recognised certain aspects of Mrs Wazza's affair in it....


Infidelity, Cheating Wives - Women's Infidelity


----------



## Conrad

Tron said:


> Chap, unless you are spending some time on Regroup's thread, I think you will be OK. Ms. RG's foul mouth is going to have the privilege of being responsible for the most bannings in TAM history.
> 
> On a more serious note, the blog was left up on an ipad and went down really well in the Tron household too.  Provocative and slightly entertaining, but...rules to live by...eh, not so much.
> 
> Sorry, Conrad. She read some of it and was, um, shall we say "not amused". 2 months later and we are all good again
> 
> LW, what I was able to read of the book review was sobering...especially as it relates to this thread.


Sounds like you lived it down


----------



## Tron

Conrad said:


> Sounds like you lived it down


It seems I get a little more rope with calm, cool, and dispassionate than the usual. Who'd have thunk it? 

That and a trip across the pond, and she just seems to be in a good mood these days. 

A big difference on the trip too, noticed by all. I only needed a double scotch 1 time in 2.5 weeks.


----------



## Conrad

Tron said:


> It seems I get a little more rope with calm, cool, and dispassionate than the usual. Who'd have thunk it?
> 
> That and a trip across the pond, and she just seems to be in a good mood these days.
> 
> A big difference on the trip too, noticed by all. I only needed a double scotch 1 time in 2.5 weeks.


Stay the course brother.

I have a feeling you nipped this one in time.


----------



## Frostflower

Wazza said:


> Being serious for a moment......I found the lot pretty silly as well. There are some concepts in it that I think have grains of truth, but even when that occurs the treatment is so simplistic as to be useless and even downright dangerous as a tool to understand the real world.
> 
> It's one of the things to be vey aware of in TAM. Human relationships are exceedingly complicated, and there is rarely a single recipe to follow that will guarantee a desires outcome.
> 
> Edit : it is also worth noting that the blog list is intended to manipulate women into casual sex, not relationships.


BINGO!

I just noticed that, on my last post, the way it ended up configuring itself, it looks as if I agreed with all of LW’s comments. *I did not.* The only one I agreed with was the last sentence.


----------



## Wazza

Frostflower said:


> BINGO!
> 
> I just noticed that, on my last post, the way it ended up configuring itself, it looks as if I agreed with all of LW’s comments. *I did not.* The only one I agreed with was the last sentence.


I get nervous when you get this feisty....doesn't happen often from what I have seen....look out world!!!


----------



## Frostflower

Wazza said:


> I get nervous when you get this feisty....doesn't happen often from what I have seen....look out world!!!


Some things are worth getting feisty about.

I am Woman. Hear me roar!


----------



## Chaparral

I have not been able to catch up on this thread due to its length and time constraints. If I get anything wrong please let me know.

Up to this point what you are doing is not working. You spent vacation with your wife but she remained faithful to her current affair partner.

Here is a post, basically dealing with the biology of affairs. ( you can forget the mental aspect for now, since affairs are about sex and emotion). Also, you can't argue with results.

*Here's what's going on:

You're not exactly Michelangelo's David come to life, so you don't really have a physical presence to maintain raw sexual attraction over the long haul. It doesn't sound like you're rolling in cash, either. To counteract that deficiency to the point that you can keep a woman attracted, you have to maintain your frame as "the man". Unfortunately, domestic life causes your testosterone to drop, kids cause it to drop more, and then your wife is constantly trying to beta-ize you by getting you to take over an increasing amount of "woman's work" as we used to call it. Even if you do everything right, which you didn't, she's still going to have the 4-7 and the 12-14 year itch (the times when women are most likely to stray) to contend with. Not to mention the fact that your wife's testosterone levels are hitting their highest plateau right now and continuing for the next 5-7 years as her biological programming pushes her to crank out a couple more kids (ideally from an Alpha type sperm source) before menopause.

If you want to save this marriage, you're going to have reframe your persona and do a lot of stuff that is downright counterintuitive to your Delta male sensibilities. First, stop breaking The Sixteen Commandments. Now, those are geared to dating relationships, but they are still valid in LTR, with appropriate tempering. 

Here's a dating value test you should run through. I know you aren't dating (yet) but married women are attracted to exactly these behaviors in the their lovers, if not their husbands. Even if it's all imaginary, as in the case of your wife's imaginary BF in swinging London.

Get yourself in the shape of your life as soon as you get the okay from your cardiologist. And read this book WheatBelly by cardiologist William Davis. Follow his instructions closely. For exercise and building your new greek god physique, try this The New High Intensity Training. It's a super time efficient way to reshape yourself and increase attraction.

You've already been told to read "Married Man Sex Life."
It will explain pretty much exactly how you got here and what to do to get out of the hole.

When is the last time a woman you didn't know approached you for sex? *

Machiavelli (sp) posted this on Joseph5's thread


----------



## Chaparral

Here are two links you need to fully understand:

Blog | Married Man Sex Life

No More Mr. Nice Guy


https://7chan.org/lit/src/Robert_Glover_-_No_More_Mr_Nice_Guy.pdf

How old are you? Have you had your testosterone checked?

Seriously, you have to change tactics. Have an open mind and give the information here and honest appraisal.

Good luck to your family.


----------



## Chuck71

Chaparral said:


> Whew, after seeing LW banned it looks dangerous to comment.


LW may have gotten banned for speaking the truth

or maybe he formulated his thoughts above a 4th grade level

and it irked a "higher up"

someone got tired of grabbing a thesaurus?

There is one poster who uses swear words every fifth

word, reminds you of Jackie Gleason on SatB

don't recall him ever getting the smack

SMFH


----------



## Frostflower

How are you doing, Lost?


----------



## lostLove77

Frostflower said:


> How are you doing, Lost?


Hi FF. I've been ok. Mostly been stressing over the home selling so I can finally settle in my home area with the girls. 

I think the ADs are having some positive affects, starting to sleep better as well as putting down self help books and digging into some novels. Things between WW and I have been interesting. We've been speaking a bit and she seems to be doing some heavy reflection but we'll see. 

Thanks for checking in.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chuck71

try these few books about marriage and divorce

William Blake Marriage of Heaven and HeII

CS Lewis Divorce of Heaven and HeII

nice reads


----------



## moxy

lostLove77 said:


> Hi FF. I've been ok. Mostly been stressing over the home selling so I can finally settle in my home area with the girls.
> 
> I think the ADs are having some positive affects, starting to sleep better as well as putting down self help books and digging into some novels. Things between WW and I have been interesting. We've been speaking a bit and she seems to be doing some heavy reflection but we'll see.
> 
> Thanks for checking in.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is a great update! You sound better.

Home stress is not necessarily bad stress and it will pass once you are done with the sale and new purchase. At least there is some opportunity for excitement in this, too.

It's good that you're getting back into novels instead of self-help books. Introspection is valuable, but as you can see from my own thread, it can make you dwell and stay stuck instead of moving forward sometimes. What are you reading now?

It sounds like you're doing more things for YOU and like those A/D's have had a positive effect.


----------



## LongWalk

LL,

How important is eros to your marriage? Would you accept a reconciliation in which intimacy was rare? How long could you tolerate pity or duty sex?

During the seaside holiday your wife seemed willing to try and discover whether there was some ember of passion that could be reignited. Do you think she came to any conclusion?

Did you?


----------



## LongWalk

Tron said:


> Chap, unless you are spending some time on Regroup's thread, I think you will be OK. Ms. RG's foul mouth is going to have the privilege of being responsible for the most bannings in TAM history.
> 
> On a more serious note, the blog was left up on an ipad and went down really well in the Tron household too.  Provocative and slightly entertaining, but...rules to live by...eh, not so much.
> 
> Sorry, Conrad. She read some of it and was, um, shall we say "not amused". 2 months later and we are all good again
> 
> LW, what I was able to read of the book review was sobering...especially as it relates to this thread.


Tron,

I can see the words that lead to my banning, but I don't know in which thread they appeared or the context. I am certain that both of the words often appear in altered form but why they lead to trouble or just slide on by, I cannot say.

Langley's book is not scholarly but it is rational. Without marriage there would be no civilization. But how far we can stretch and weaken marriage is an unknown.

re: the poon blog
I felt misunderstood. No one can possibly think that love could be secure or pleasant if it was the product of endless guile. However, the some of observations were very fair. When should a person say "I love you"? Every junior high school heart that is bursting to say "I like you" to a secret crush would be mortified to be met with "we're just friends." To say "I love you" in the face of indifference may be honest but it is deadly to courtship and wooing.


----------



## moxy

LongWalk said:


> re: the poon blog
> I felt misunderstood. No one can possibly think that love could be secure or pleasant if it was the product of endless guile. However, the some of observations were very fair.


This makes sense. I think that the cavalier attitude of the blogger was icky, that overall the article felt like a "what to do if you want hook-ups, but what not to do if you want a relationship" article. Was it the "snap out of it" attitude that you thought would help LL or the way it encouraged detachment, or something else? Something made you feel it was worth sharing, but whatever it was didn't come across fully because the article was (probably intentionally) rather provocative.

I re-wrote the points for myself to make sense of what he was getting at and in order to articulate my understanding of what was valuable or interesting in them, but I don't know if it would be worth reading. If I had to boil down the post and find the precipitate of value in there, I'd say that the gist of the article could be "be confident, self-assured, and independent; be desirable and able to connect with her in ways that she will find appealing; be eager, but don't be so needy that you come across as desperate or clingy; don't make her your whole entire world."

I do think that LL could benefit from some aspects of that blog's advice (if we remove the ick factor): Be confident. Be strong. Apologize for your wrongs but don't take blame that isn't yours. Take her off that pedestal. Only pursue her if she is receptive and back away when she isn't. And, realize that with or without her, you can still be happy!


----------



## Frostflower

moxy said:


> This makes sense. I think that the cavalier attitude of the blogger was icky, that overall the article felt like a "what to do if you want hook-ups, but what not to do if you want a relationship" article. Was it the "snap out of it" attitude that you thought would help LL or the way it encouraged detachment, or something else? Something made you feel it was worth sharing, but whatever it was didn't come across fully because the article was (probably intentionally) rather provocative.
> 
> I re-wrote the points for myself to make sense of what he was getting at and in order to articulate my understanding of what was valuable or interesting in them, but I don't know if it would be worth reading. If I had to boil down the post and find the precipitate of value in there, I'd say that the gist of the article could be "be confident, self-assured, and independent; be desirable and able to connect with her in ways that she will find appealing; be eager, but don't be so needy that you come across as desperate or clingy; don't make her your whole entire world."
> 
> I do think that LL could benefit from some aspects of that blog's advice (if we remove the ick factor): Be confident. Be strong. Apologize for your wrongs but don't take blame that isn't yours. Take her off that pedestal. Only pursue her if she is receptive and back away when she isn't. And, realize that with or without her, you can still be happy!


Well done, Moxy. You have put it in a much more palatable way. Words to live by, for both men and women.


----------



## LongWalk

Frostflower said:


> Well done, Moxy. You have put it in a much more palatable way. Words to live by, for both men and women.


Frost, Moxy did explain it in a more neutral way. However, the blog was not, I think merely interested in sex, otherwise it would not have expended so much thought on maintaining the upper hand in the relationship. It was a player's bible applied to keeping the acquisition. Implicit in the philosophy is the belief that without strong sexual attraction, based on the insecurity of women, a man is not capable of maintaining a healthy relationship.

Pride and Prejudice describes the female psyche well on this point. It would perhaps be better for LL to think about Darcying up. We are fond of him as he is. We don't want him to take on the morals of Wickham just to succeed. 

Whatever the psychological dynamics of love and attraction are in the initial stage of a relationship, it must be a mixture of animal and spiritual connection. Later in a relationship this passion must cool and become more stable.

According to LL, in the beginning he was too dominating and forced his wife to accept his decisions, e.g., moving. Gradually she asserted herself and he liked or accepted this, but now he has a very weak position. That weakness is not sexy. So, yes, Moxy is 100%, right on. Every poster who is following LL wants him to be strong because that is the only this that will move his wife.

Anyone who has ever tried to rebuild a dying fire by squirting lighter fluid on hot but flameless coals feels a kind of wonderment when they refuse to explode into flame with that air sucking "whomp" sound. Actually the lighter fluid can further extinguish the fire's vitality.

LL's wife has had multiple campfires burning. She varies the resources she devotes to a fire, depending what it she needs. She is not putting fuel in the fire with LL, she takes the energy that is left to feed other relationships. Telling LL that Baldy rescued her in the auto emergency was a tidbit designed to excite LL's jealousy. She is simply stroking her own ego at LL's expense because she is not certain or happy with Baldy.

You can be sure that in her twisted kiss and tell way, that if she met Baldy on Friday, Saturday or Sunday night, she alluded to the 4-day week's holiday with LL, assuring him that she did not have sexual intercourse with LL. If the anyone uses the morals and ethic of the 16 Commandments of Poon, it is LL's wife. She is the player.

From what LL has described she seemed more attached to OM3 than Baldy. It is sadistic of her to share the details of her games with LL. (LL, didn't she once wax indignant that you could not accept that she was sorry that you were sorry that she hurt you so deeply? She more or less demanded that you apologize for questioning the sincerity of her sympathy for you.)

One of the TAM CWI cliches is that the cheater ought to have crawl on broken glass, begging to have any chance of reconciliation, for without true remorse there can be no strong relationship again. But, LL, your wife does not admit that she is cheater. She separated to swim in a penis rich limbo soup. If you get together again there is nothing to prevent her from at any moment declaring a new separation to peel off her duds for another swim. Moxy called it playing in the slime... okay, call it a slimy soup.

Good luck selling the house. Hope this brings from closure. Beware of her greed in divorce. She may thinking a lot about coming out of it with excellent financial support from you for years to come. Her being sorry about you being sorry that she tricked you has zero value IMO.


----------



## Frostflower

I agree that Lost needs to be strong. Not to ‘move’ his wife, but for himself.


_However, the blog was not, I think merely interested in sex, otherwise it would not have expended so much thought on maintaining the upper hand in the relationship. It was a player's bible applied to keeping the acquisition. Implicit in the philosophy is the belief that without strong sexual attraction, based on the insecurity of women, a man is not capable of maintaining a healthy relationship._

The fact that it is entitled ‘The Commandments of Poon’ defines the purpose of the blog quite effectively.

‘a player’s bible applied to keeping the acquisition’....there we go.

As for ‘the insecurity of women’.....not even going to go there.

LW, I’m sure you are a nice person, but you seem to have a very narrow view of women and relationships. Let’s agree to disagree.


----------



## LongWalk

Frostflower said:


> I agree that Lost needs to be strong. Not to ‘move’ his wife, but for himself.
> 
> 
> _However, the blog was not, I think merely interested in sex, otherwise it would not have expended so much thought on maintaining the upper hand in the relationship. It was a player's bible applied to keeping the acquisition. Implicit in the philosophy is the belief that without strong sexual attraction, based on the insecurity of women, a man is not capable of maintaining a healthy relationship._
> 
> The fact that it is entitled ‘The Commandments of Poon’ defines the purpose of the blog quite effectively.
> 
> ‘a player’s bible applied to keeping the acquisition’....there we go.
> 
> As for ‘the insecurity of women’.....not even going to go there.
> 
> LW, I’m sure you are a nice person, but you seem to have a very narrow view of women and relationships. Let’s agree to disagree.


Frost we are on an Internet forum. We do not have to agree. Besides I don't even know exactly what we disagree about. A person with a very narrow view of women and relationships by definition cannot be very nice. If that is your opinion of me, then at best you offer pity and at worst contempt.

I suggest we keep talking to reach some higher truth, unless LL considers us threadjackers.

When LL was surprised that I could be depressed, given that I wrote with the voice of self assurance. I immediately was forthcoming to correct him. People who come to TAM are trying to figure themselves out. The most brilliant and insightful posters may be wrestling with personal demons.

As to insecurity, most people, except sociopaths suffer insecurity. The essence of consumerism is based on uncertainty.

Vladimir Putin has cast off his wife to replace with a much younger former gymnast whom he has elevated to become a member of parliament. He puts his political opponents in prison. He can order military exercises of 160,000 soldiers. He constantly displays himself as a super macho guy, without his shirt on.

His new woman has only to tell him he is smaller than her previous lovers and cannot really fill her and his fragile ego will crumble. For the sake of world peace we must hope that she does not have an affair with a younger man, but then she is not a free woman. The KGB are watching her. 

If we are honest, we should admit that the institution of marriage is based on insecurity. The vow to remain faithful (i.e., monogamous) in health and sickness is a contractual agreement designed to allow us to sleep at night, secure in the knowledge another will wake up thinking about us. In reality both husbands and wives may be thinking of others after 15 years of marriage.

The reality is not so secure. If a spouse becomes obese, abusive, financially irresponsible, the marriage vows may well come to naught. If 5'10" guy who went from 180 lbs at his wedding to 306 lbs while his wife is looking the same after two children should not be surprised if his wife refuses sex. She cannot find the man she married in all the layers of fat. It is not right for her to cheat, but is she a monster failing to take a courageous decision to ask for a divorce before looking for happiness? He was having an affair with Dominos pizza while sitting in an office.

Yesterday my daughters and I quarreled about where we were going to eat out, or rather daughter, 18, rebelled and walked off. In the end I had to follow her and steer us to an Eritrean restaurant near home. After reading on TAM I now understand that my daughter was testing. She wants to be reigned in so that she will feel secure. 

Daughter, 15, is a social genius. Daughter, 18, has many positive traits but she has many of flaws that come from my ex and me. Part of this genetic and part of it learned.

"Your mother would have been a better parent if she hadn't been married to me, I accentuated her character flaws," I told them.

"That's what she would say," replied the 15-year-old.

"It's true I told them, I failed her, but I can see that now and tell you that is the truth, I have some insight," I told them.

Better late than never.

This talk seems important to me because I don't want daughter 18 to end up in failed relationships because she blindly follows the feminine instincts that sow the seeds of destruction. A woman needs to be self confident enough to attract the right sort of guy and recognize him for his pluses and minuses. A man needs to know how to woo his wife. The Commandments of Poon are vulgar prescriptive recipe but they contain elements of truth.

Here Frost is where you and I disagree. 

A man and woman can limp through life, remaining married to the end but it may be a failure for their souls. These things are difficult to face. This is why I have asked LL how long he could tolerate a marriage in which he can only look forward to pity sex. That is the best he can do if simply negotiates his way back into his marriage (and I see no evidence that it will even happen).

LL is going to have 180 and rebuild himself. If in a few months time if his wife begins to gain insight into herself, she may want him back but at that point she must begin to repair herself. She is seriously damaged, so I question whether he will find her so attractive.

re: modern life
Ms GP wrote on her husband's thread that equality has brought many difficulties to marriage. How can a man be masculine if his wife has equal earning power. Once a man has been relegated to beta status her attraction to him will diminish.

That is why there are more single mothers today. At work there is a very alpha executive. She has adopted a child to raise on her own. She is very smart, pushy and aggressive. She is not unattractive but it would be impossible to be married to her. The tests she must have put her boyfriends and partners through have broken all of them.


----------



## Ms. GP

Actually I was referring to the time constraints of a dual income family not money. I don't think income is a factor in a man's alpha status.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LongWalk

Ms. GP said:


> Actually I was referring to the time constraints of a dual income family not money. I don't think income is a factor in a man's alpha status.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Money matters. But I agree it need not be a factor. For all the generalizations that exist, there will be exceptions. However, the age at which people marry has risen. Decades ago the average age was something like 23 for men and 21 for women. Today it is 28 and 26. 

When both people have been through a some LTR and try to find a spouse, they look for roughly equivalent education and income. If either spouse loses their job and is forced to work for much lower wage, that is a threat to their marriage. I would guess that when the husband is out of work, the wife will often lose interest in him as mate.

Makes perfect sense. In human evolutionary history, the injured hunter gatherers who were reduced to begging for handouts couldn't maintain their sex rank status.

I hope you will be able to go to work eventually, at least part time to feel that you have licked your demons. However, you shouldn't test yourself until you are really ready. A former alcoholic should for the most part not work as bartender


----------



## Conrad

Ms. GP said:


> Actually I was referring to the time constraints of a dual income family not money. I don't think income is a factor in a man's alpha status.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Interesting observation.

I think it matters in a longer-term situation.

But, for a weekend, no.


----------



## Ms. GP

I will return eventually. Not before I'm ready. I will actively search for something not around the drugs. I can teach, work for a drug company, or do consulting work for a nursing home. What's funny is I don't miss work at all. I'm actually much happier staying at home. I stay busy and get to do something different every day. I think the sex ranking you are referring to somewhat applies more to men than women or at least mabye to happiness verse unhappiness. Heck, I think mine has gone up staying at home!! Ha ha.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

Ms. GP said:


> I will return eventually. Not before I'm ready. I will actively search for something not around the drugs. I can teach, work for a drug company, or do consulting work for a nursing home. What's funny is I don't miss work at all. I'm actually much happier staying at home. I stay busy and get to do something different every day. I think the sex ranking you are referring to somewhat applies more to men than women or at least mabye to happiness verse unhappiness. Heck, I think mine has gone up staying at home!! Ha ha.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Tell you what.

If you're truly happy staying at home, and the money works, I'm damned near certain he'll agree to it indefinitely.

As a pharmacist, you can go back to work part-time or full-time any year you want, at full salary.

This forum is literally filled with men who absolutely crushed themselves working so their wives would raise their children and be happy.

Almost all of them ended up "0-2"

If you are able to stay home, take care of the kids, and stay into each other?

That's golden.


----------



## Ms. GP

Or mabye it's gone up because I'm not eating lortabs for breakfast anymore!! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

Ms. GP said:


> Or mabye it's gone up because I'm not eating lortabs for breakfast anymore!!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Those always seemed more like a dessert to me.


----------



## Ms. GP

No we can't afford it indefinitely, but I'm very grateful for right now. I wouldn't want him to kill himself. It's all about balance I think.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Ms. GP

Conrad said:


> Those always seemed more like a dessert to me.


Amateur!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

Ms. GP said:


> No we can't afford it indefinitely, but I'm very grateful for right now. I wouldn't want him to kill himself. It's all about balance I think.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Codependent males think if we make your lives easy/easier, you'll love us for it.

LOL - what fools


----------



## ThreeStrikes

Conrad said:


> Codependent males think if we make your lives easy/easier, you'll love us for it.
> 
> LOL - what fools


Not fools. Just naive.


----------



## GutPunch

Conrad said:


> Codependent males think if we make your lives easy/easier, you'll love us for it.
> 
> LOL - what fools


I was definitely guilty of this while she was "high".

I thought her problems were from not being able to cope with the duties of everyday life. Job and kids was too much for her. I began to tote more and more of the load. It all went unappreciated. 

Live and learn.


----------



## Conrad

GutPunch said:


> I was definitely guilty of this while she was "high".
> 
> I thought her problems were from not being able to cope with the duties of everyday life. Job and kids was too much for her. I began to tote more and more of the load. It all went unappreciated.
> 
> Live and learn.


We're taught to shoulder our load.

More is better, right?


----------



## GutPunch

Conrad said:


> We're taught to shoulder our load.
> 
> More is better, right?


Wrong!


----------



## ThreeStrikes

Conrad said:


> We're taught to shoulder our load.
> 
> More is better, right?


Society taught us to be knights. Open the door. Be a gentleman. Provide for your lady and family. Make her life easy. If she's in trouble, help her.

You know, be a MAN.

Heh.


----------



## Conrad

ThreeStrikes said:


> Society taught us to be knights. Open the door. Be a gentleman. Provide for your lady and family. Make her life easy. If she's in trouble, help her.
> 
> You know, be a MAN.
> 
> Heh.


What the hell happened to our fathers?

I'm actually being a bit serious here.

I look at a guy like Phil Robertson on Duck Dynasty.

First man I've seen on television in a long long time.


----------



## Ms. GP

You can't make another person happy. I was selfish and miserable then. Everyday felt like I was walking through mud. If I hadn't have been working, I would have just laid in bed all day. Uggh!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chuck71

back in 2000 ex had sugar issues so I said take off work

I worked 80 plus hours a week for a few months

I get this "you don't spend time with me anymore"

worked 80+ another month, bought myself a 1975

and 1973 Topps set. I took a week going through

each one. "You don't spend any time with me."

Me-OK pull up a chair, I'll teach you about 

players from yesteryear." She left LOL


----------



## Frostflower

Ms. GP said:


> Actually I was referring to the time constraints of a dual income family not money. I don't think income is a factor in a man's alpha status.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I wholeheartedly agree. I know very happy couples where the wife earns more than the husband. My husband and I are almost equal wagewise. If I were to suddenly get a raise, he would be jumping for joy. He’d be off to the hardware store to finish the darned renos, then the travel agent to book a vacation. And he’d be smiling his cute little alph smile the whole way.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

chuck71 said:


> back in 2000 ex had sugar issues so i said take off work
> 
> i worked 80 plus hours a week for a few months
> 
> i get this "you don't spend time with me anymore"
> 
> worked 80+ another month, bought myself a 1975
> 
> and 1973 topps set. I took a week going through
> 
> each one. "you don't spend any time with me."
> 
> me-ok pull up a chair, i'll teach you about
> 
> players from yesteryear." she left lol


lmao!


----------



## Conrad

Chuck71 said:


> back in 2000 ex had sugar issues so I said take off work


Apparently, she got over the sugar issues and encountered lipid issues.


----------



## Chuck71

Conrad said:


> Apparently, she got over the sugar issues and encountered lipid issues.


:rofl: :rofl:

what is sad....I could send you a pic of her when we were dating

and one of her when she was on these dating sites

difference? about 130 lbs. ask BW... he saw the dating one


----------



## Frostflower

LongWalk said:


> Frost we are on an Internet forum. We do not have to agree. Besides I don't even know exactly what we disagree about. A person with a very narrow view of women and relationships by definition cannot be very nice. If that is your opinion of me, then at best you offer pity and at worst contempt.
> 
> I suggest we keep talking to reach some higher truth, unless LL considers us threadjackers.
> 
> When LL was surprised that I could be depressed, given that I wrote with the voice of self assurance. I immediately was forthcoming to correct him. People who come to TAM are trying to figure themselves out. The most brilliant and insightful posters may be wrestling with personal demons.
> 
> As to insecurity, most people, except sociopaths suffer insecurity. The essence of consumerism is based on uncertainty.
> 
> Vladimir Putin has cast off his wife to replace with a much younger former gymnast whom he has elevated to become a member of parliament. He puts his political opponents in prison. He can order military exercises of 160,000 soldiers. He constantly displays himself as a super macho guy, without his shirt on.
> 
> His new woman has only to tell him he is smaller than her previous lovers and cannot really fill her and his fragile ego will crumble. For the sake of world peace we must hope that she does not have an affair with a younger man, but then she is not a free woman. The KGB are watching her.
> 
> If we are honest, we should admit that the institution of marriage is based on insecurity. The vow to remain faithful (i.e., monogamous) in health and sickness is a contractual agreement designed to allow us to sleep at night, secure in the knowledge another will wake up thinking about us. In reality both husbands and wives may be thinking of others after 15 years of marriage.
> 
> The reality is not so secure. If a spouse becomes obese, abusive, financially irresponsible, the marriage vows may well come to naught. If 5'10" guy who went from 180 lbs at his wedding to 306 lbs while his wife is looking the same after two children should not be surprised if his wife refuses sex. She cannot find the man she married in all the layers of fat. It is not right for her to cheat, but is she a monster failing to take a courageous decision to ask for a divorce before looking for happiness? He was having an affair with Dominos pizza while sitting in an office.
> 
> Yesterday my daughters and I quarreled about where we were going to eat out, or rather daughter, 18, rebelled and walked off. In the end I had to follow her and steer us to an Eritrean restaurant near home. After reading on TAM I now understand that my daughter was testing. She wants to be reigned in so that she will feel secure.
> 
> Daughter, 15, is a social genius. Daughter, 18, has many positive traits but she has many of flaws that come from my ex and me. Part of this genetic and part of it learned.
> 
> "Your mother would have been a better parent if she hadn't been married to me, I accentuated her character flaws," I told them.
> 
> "That's what she would say," replied the 15-year-old.
> 
> "It's true I told them, I failed her, but I can see that now and tell you that is the truth, I have some insight," I told them.
> 
> Better late than never.
> 
> This talk seems important to me because I don't want daughter 18 to end up in failed relationships because she blindly follows the feminine instincts that sow the seeds of destruction. A woman needs to be self confident enough to attract the right sort of guy and recognize him for his pluses and minuses. A man needs to know how to woo his wife. The Commandments of Poon are vulgar prescriptive recipe but they contain elements of truth.
> 
> Here Frost is where you and I disagree.
> 
> A man and woman can limp through life, remaining married to the end but it may be a failure for their souls. These things are difficult to face. This is why I have asked LL how long he could tolerate a marriage in which he can only look forward to pity sex. That is the best he can do if simply negotiates his way back into his marriage (and I see no evidence that it will even happen).
> 
> LL is going to have 180 and rebuild himself. If in a few months time if his wife begins to gain insight into herself, she may want him back but at that point she must begin to repair herself. She is seriously damaged, so I question whether he will find her so attractive.
> 
> re: modern life
> Ms GP wrote on her husband's thread that equality has brought many difficulties to marriage. How can a man be masculine if his wife has equal earning power. Once a man has been relegated to beta status her attraction to him will diminish.
> 
> That is why there are more single mothers today. At work there is a very alpha executive. She has adopted a child to raise on her own. She is very smart, pushy and aggressive. She is not unattractive but it would be impossible to be married to her. The tests she must have put her boyfriends and partners through have broken all of them.


I am just going to comment on your last paragraph. If that executive is a typical female executive, she has had to be ‘smart, pushy and aggressive', to get where she is in the business world. The reason for that being that the alpha males who have run industry since the Industrial Revolution have been reluctant to allow women to rise in the business world. 

You assume she has ‘tested her boyfriends and partners’ and 'broken all of them'. Do you know this for a fact? If not, it is a very unfair assumption. And the fact is, she may be very different at home.

The fact that she has a child has nothing to do with anything in this discussion. Unless you are saying, and the juxtaposition of your sentences seems to point that way, that there are more single mothers today because single mothers are ‘smart, pushy and aggressive’ and have broken all there boyfriends and partners. 

And lastly, 'How can a man be masculine if his wife has equal earning power’......do you seriously equate masculinity with earning power greater than a woman’s? If so, I guess many of us are married to un-masculine men.

It also leads to some interesting dilemmas. One being, “If I take that raise, I will be earning more than my husband. It will destroy his masculinity.” What would you recommend to the woman faced with that choice?


----------



## LongWalk

Ms. GP said:


> I will return eventually. Not before I'm ready. *I will actively search for something not around the drugs. I can teach, work for a drug company, or do consulting work for a nursing home.* What's funny is I don't miss work at all. I'm actually much happier staying at home. I stay busy and get to do something different every day. I think the sex ranking you are referring to somewhat applies more to men than women or at least mabye to happiness verse unhappiness. Heck, I think mine has gone up staying at home!! Ha ha.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Good ideas.


----------



## LongWalk

Frostflower said:


> I am just going to comment on your last paragraph. If that executive is a typical female executive, she has had to be ‘smart, pushy and aggressive', to get where she is in the business world. The reason for that being that the alpha males who have run industry since the Industrial Revolution have been reluctant to allow women to rise in the business world.
> 
> Everybody in business must develop a persona to cope with the competition. There are different models of business(wo)man. But at certain level in business development she must squeeze clients for as close the limit as the company dares. She must then go back and make sure the deliverables happen.
> 
> The idea that women are excluded from the business elite is no longer true. However, women lose out because maternity leave. Two children, even without breast feeding, deprive a woman of three key years on the career ladder. That is "not fair" but it is reality.
> 
> You assume she has ‘tested her boyfriends and partners’ and 'broken all of them'. Do you know this for a fact? If not, it is a very unfair assumption. And the fact is, she may be very different at home.
> 
> *True I know relatively little about her personal life. I do know that she messaged and emailed me past midnight to fix a pressure situation. Another colleague told me she does it with others as well. It is not the done thing to chase employees like that, but she does not have that boundary.
> 
> She is not unique. Many great business empires involve the sacrifice of personal life. Apple is a great example.
> 
> I don't know about her personal life. But she never gave me an asexual vibe. *
> 
> The fact that she has a child has nothing to do with anything in this discussion. Unless you are saying, and the juxtaposition of your sentences seems to point that way, that there are more single mothers today because single mothers are ‘smart, pushy and aggressive’ and have broken all there boyfriends and partners.
> 
> Women are more demanding because they can be. They are not beholden to men, so when they want a child but do not have a man, they can have one anyway. It is not just that they break their potential mates. Many men probably don't measure up. You can read plenty of magazine articles about women age 31 who suddenly feel desperate. They don't want a socially incompetent guy who lives in his mother's basement and drives UPS truck.
> 
> Those guys are broken before they begin.
> 
> And lastly, 'How can a man be masculine if his wife has equal earning power’......do you seriously equate masculinity with earning power greater than a woman’s? If so, I guess many of us are married to un-masculine men.
> 
> Humans are very conscious of status. I have a couple of friend who became a couple since I knew them. The guy is smart and has good sense of humor. He grew up working class and had a job climbing telephone masts and other high places. He has now move up to being a consultant manager of the climbers.
> 
> His LT GF has encouraged him to go to university. I don't think he will make more money once he graduates. However, he will gain white collar status.
> 
> It also leads to some interesting dilemmas. One being, “If I take that raise, I will be earning more than my husband. It will destroy his masculinity.” What would you recommend to the woman faced with that choice?
> 
> Read Jerry123's thread. There are no easy answers. Divorce is easy. Very common solution.


----------



## Frostflower

I am unable to quote what you wrote, LW, so I will copy and paste.

_The idea that women are excluded from the business elite is no longer true._ They may not be excluded to the extent that they once were, however in many, many instances it is more difficult for a woman to ‘climb the corporate ladder’ than it is for a man. They have to work harder and push harder to get where they want to go. They also often have to behave in ways that are not generally considered acceptable for women. What is viewed as acceptable for a man, for example assertiveness, is considered aggressiveness or ‘pushy’ when it is a woman. I am a teacher. I have seen how female principals, acting in the same way as their male counterparts, are not viewed in the same way. They are often seen as being aggressive and overbearing. Unfortunately, some push harder to prove themselves and it becomes a vicious circle.


_Women are more demanding because they can be_ What??!


_Many men probably don't measure up._ And how many women don’t measure up to men’s standards?

_His LT GF has encouraged him to go to university. I don't think he will make more money once he graduates. However, he will gain white collar status._ Are you saying she encouraged him in order that he gain white collar status? Perhaps she encouraged him to fulfill a dream he had of higher education. Perhaps she encouraged him because, realizing his intelligence, she felt it might give him some intellectual stimulation. Perhaps he hates his job and this will be a means to a better one. Unless you have deep inside information, it is not a good idea to assume you know another’s motivations.

Look, we are hijacking Lost’s thread. We need to give it back to him. That said, I will not simply read something I find questionable or offensive and let it pass.

Sorry, Lost.


----------



## moxy

ThreeStrikes said:


> Society taught us to be knights. Open the door. Be a gentleman. Provide for your lady and family. Make her life easy. If she's in trouble, help her.
> 
> You know, be a MAN.
> 
> Heh.


Phooey. Who wants a man that does everything? Dead boring. I like to be able to do a thing just as well my partner if I can -- being bested, honestly, is better than being patronized or pampered.

To tie it back to LL. What kind of relationship did your wife want with you, LL? Did she want to be taken care of? Did she want to feel like an equal? Did she want you to be submissive? Do you feel like you neglected to offer those things? Do you think her desires or interests changed? If she gave you another chance, now, how do you think your dynamic would be? In many ways, you would be "negotiating" your way back (LW) and that would put you in a less desirable position, one of tolerance rather than admiration from her; do you think that once you get to that point, you would try to recapture her interest? How you see these dynamics playing out will help you through limbo, I think.


----------



## Frostflower

moxy said:


> Phooey. Who wants a man that does everything? Dead boring. I like to be able to do a thing just as well my partner if I can -- being bested, honestly, is better than being patronized or pampered.


Being pampered sometimes is nice, but it should work both ways.


----------



## Conrad

Frostflower said:


> Being pampered sometimes is nice, but it should work both ways.


I pamper her, she pampers the kids.

Is that how it works?


----------



## LongWalk

Frost, you are welcome to copy and paste to my thread. I am trying to boost traffic so that when TAM changes the rules about ads, I will be in a good position to monetize my thread.

re: LL's situation
Moxy's questions are good. Hopefully, LL will find them helpful


----------



## LongWalk

Conrad said:


> I pamper her, she pampers the kids.
> 
> Is that how it works?


How are you, Conrad?


----------



## Conrad

LongWalk said:


> How are you, Conrad?


Walk,

Pluggin' away

Glad you are back from the penalty box.


----------



## lostLove77

Welcome back Walk. Moxy been thinking hard on your questions. 

I believe she felt like I was I inattentive and didn't take care of her enough. I understand why she felt like this. She seemed very self sufficient and I didn't keep trying to "date" her. Moving forward I don't know how our relationship would exist. I feel like she is still in love with me in a lot of ways but she's afraid she won't get what she feels she needs. So I don't know if its an negotiation or something she wants but is afraid to get hurt. 

I just finished the Kite Runner and see some parallels in the way Amir treated Hassan and how he grew into a principled man and showed compassion and dedication to Sohrab. I feel like I'm now running.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Frostflower

Conrad said:


> I pamper her, she pampers the kids.
> 
> Is that how it works?


Well, that’s not what I meant. But look at it this way, at least the niceness you give is being passed on!


----------



## LongWalk

What needs are POSOM filling that you do not? How can you replace them?

The TAM general strategy:

1) expose affairs
2) 180
3) make negative consequences bite (e.g., cause economic pain) 
4) require remorse from WS
5) demand NC

So far you have at most practiced some mild 180. If you are not going to follow the above, what strategy will you employ? How can we support you?


----------



## Conrad

Frostflower said:


> Well, that’s not what I meant. But look at it this way, at least the niceness you give is being passed on!


Dislike


----------



## Frostflower

Conrad said:


> Dislike


Now Conrad, what do the wise people of TAM say? You can't control other people.........


----------



## Conrad

Frostflower said:


> Now Conrad, what do the wise people of TAM say? You can't control other people.........


Frost, "paying it forward" is a great concept - until it comes to enabling.


----------



## moxy

lostLove77 said:


> Welcome back Walk. Moxy been thinking hard on your questions.
> 
> I believe she felt like I was I inattentive and didn't take care of her enough. I understand why she felt like this. She seemed very self sufficient and I didn't keep trying to "date" her. Moving forward I don't know how our relationship would exist. I feel like she is still in love with me in a lot of ways but she's afraid she won't get what she feels she needs. So I don't know if its an negotiation or something she wants but is afraid to get hurt.
> 
> I just finished the Kite Runner and see some parallels in the way Amir treated Hassan and how he grew into a principled man and showed compassion and dedication to Sohrab. I feel like I'm now running.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Have you asked her directly, " Is there anything I can do that would make you consider reconciling with me?"


----------



## Frostflower

Conrad said:


> Frost, "paying it forward" is a great concept - until it comes to enabling.


True. But what are you enabling besides your kids getting treated nicely?


----------



## Conrad

Frostflower said:


> True. But what are you enabling besides your kids getting treated nicely?


They aren't my kids.


----------



## Frostflower

Conrad said:


> They aren't my kids.


Oh.


Well.


Gosh.


We love you, Conrad!


----------



## LongWalk

Frost,

Here is an article about the stats you have wondered about.


----------



## Frostflower

LongWalk said:


> Frost,
> 
> Here is an article about the stats you have wondered about.


Thanks. Its interesting. It says some of what you were saying, but in a neutral way.


----------



## LongWalk

I am sorry that you that way
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Frostflower

LongWalk said:


> I am sorry that you that way
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I’m not


----------



## Chaparral

You will note that in northern European countries marriage is no longer the way the majority of children are being raised. In our own country, one subculture now has only about 20% of its children being raised by its father. (Resulting in a gang culture).

In Australia, women now out number men on the big cheater website.

Women are now much more likely to go to college than men, leaving many women without the prospect of finding a comparable mate.

Men consistently get screwed in divorce court resulting in men unwilling to remarry.

Look up the stats for the likely hood that a women will remarry vs a man.

Progressive society has been steadily destroying the family by denigrating men and their worth.


----------



## LongWalk

Chaparral,

I agree with what you say but disagree about the cause. The social liberal agenda bears partial responsibility but there are deeper factors.

1) Physical mobility
The car has set people in motion to chase their dreams. At one time people lived in a community over generations. That is dead and gone.

2) Agriculture
There is so much food that people no longer have to worry about having a sound family unit avoid starvation. Thus, the family is not so important.

3) Birth control
Family creation is exclusively the decision of women. Women don't want to have as many children. They have much more time to pursue sex for the sake of pleasure.

4) Manual labor and physical strength not longer earn high wages
Men would be more self confident and fare better in marriage if they were the economic equal to women. In manual labor men can outperform women but those jobs are gone. Women do better in school than men. They have supplanted men in certain programs.

A vet school professor at big land grant university in the midwest told me that most of students are now women. In Sweden, where I live, the law school classes are something like 80 to 90% women today.

5) Worship of false gods
American men watch a lot sports on television, effectively becoming beta cheerleaders for the alpha males who make a living and who are treated like demigods. This must lower the status of men in real life. When men spend hours each week drinking beer and showing all those emotions about action that they are not part of it must destroy a lot marriages.

6) Mindless shopping
Both men and women buy piles of crap that get them into debt, destroying their marriages. Women are probably worse.

7) litigious culture
Lawyers like divorce just fine and are promoting it. 

8) Drugs and alcohol

9) Pornography

10) gambling

None of the factors above involve progressive politics. You can probably come up with more causes.

When it comes to progressive politics, and I would class the Huffington Post as one of their mouthpieces, there are definite anti-family ideas. I am not sure that gay marriage is wrong. One can have philosophical debate about the idea. However, one cannot expand the definition of who can marry without weakening the original institution. Fatherhood is irrelevant for a lesbian couple who want a child; they are just consumers of donor sperm and the child has no right to its father.

If having a child is right instead of a biological wonder regulated by traditional values, then the basic unit of civilization (the nuclear family based on marriage) is not so important.

All of which bring us LL dilemma: does he know what marriage means anymore? His access to his children is limited by the need to drive long distances. He, his estranged wife and children all have enough food to eat, despite the collapse of their family. His wife is having sexual relations with other men and is not forced by an undesired pregnancy to settle down with one of them.

His wife earns a living on her own and is not beholden to LL, even though he was economically successful. The crisis scene in LL's marriage took place in a casino and his wife was drinking too much.

LL doesn't seem to have support. There is no church. No MC. No relatives. He has Moxy, Frost, Conrad, etc.

LL's pain is very individual. His situation is very common.


----------



## Chaparral

Easy no fault divorce, legalization of infidelity, rewarding adultery with divorce laws, etc ad nauseam are progressive ideas that have destroyed marriage.Ancient wisdom, evolved over tens of thousands of years and has been nullified in 2 or 3 generations.


----------



## LongWalk

Chaparral said:


> Easy no fault divorce, legalization of infidelity, rewarding adultery with divorce laws, etc ad nauseam are progressive ideas that have destroyed marriage.Ancient wisdom, evolved over tens of thousands of years and has been nullified in 2 or 3 generations.


:iagree::iagree:
We are consuming the institution of marriage the way Stalin used the Russian peasants to industrialize the Soviet Union. The wanton destruction of something good for something better, which turns out not to be better but crippled and miserable, is convenient.

The current civil wedding vows in many places probably make very few explicit formal demands. The vows people take in churches have no legal meaning and people probably don't think about the words anyway. They're too busy feeling anxious about having paid $25,000 for the ostentatious shebang.

There should be two kinds of marriages:

1) Marriage lite
What we have today.

2) Marriage heavy
Divorce still possible but with fault. If someone cheats, no alimony.

Of course, forcing people to choose would cause some arguments, leading many couples to not marry at all. But it would also force others to talk about what they expect from themselves and their spouses.

Probably in the past when adultery was an issue a spouse could not say, "Oh, you've been suspicious and spied on me. That's horrible. We're divorcing," and then go to enjoy affair because the marriage is over because infidelity during the separation period would affect the final terms of the divorce.

That change alone would but affairs and cheaters under a lot of pressure.

For LL's wife, she does not believe that she is unfaithful, because she is having extramarital sex while LL is in the penalty box. She and LL have agreed to disagree about what she is doing. And so the progress of the separation and divorce actually becomes her tool to keep LL as a provider of emotional support so that she can swing to next branch.

LL, when you sell the house, you'll lose money right? How have you agreed to divide this loss? Will you have enough money to buy an new house or condo? Who paid for the house she currently lives in? Do you consider it half yours?

Also, please don't forget Moxy's questions.

Remember when you take a step forward it helps others. We are not responsible for each other. But we can learn and encourage each other, don't you think?


----------



## lostLove77

Support hearing in domestic court tomorrow. Should be good times. 

Not much else to say right now. Trying to focus on next steps for myself a d the girls and really frustrated by this vacation home. Will be getting an apartment if it doesn't sell and use savings to pay for it. Lawyer going to go after her to pay half of the mortgage of the beach house. Interested to see her reaction to that. She may not be getting as much as she hoped for during this hearing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tron

What kind of custody arrangement are you shooting for?


----------



## lostLove77

This hearing is for support. Custody hearing on the 30th. Which is insane. We both agree 50/50 with the girls. Simple agreement would suffice. Her lawyer is a gold digger and she doesn't see it. I think someone refered her and she trusts the referal more than the service she's getting. Her lawyer will not call her back, doesn't tell he next steps, nothing. Not really my problem but pisses me off cause its money from my kids ultimately. What a waste.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LongWalk

lostLove77 said:


> Support hearing in domestic court tomorrow. Should be good times.
> 
> Not much else to say right now. Trying to focus on next steps for myself a d the girls and really frustrated by this vacation home. Will be getting an apartment if it doesn't sell and use savings to pay for it. Lawyer going to go after her to pay half of the mortgage of the beach house. Interested to see her reaction to that. She may not be getting as much as she hoped for during this hearing.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Who has the title to the house she lives in?

If she is grasping in divorce that is not because of a greedy lawyer misleading her. It is because she is greedy and is employing the lawyer to savage you.

Do you feel that the last holiday helped the prospect reconciliation? It seems that she is pushing for divorce now.


----------



## Chuck71

LongWalk said:


> Chaparral,
> 
> I agree with what you say but disagree about the cause. The social liberal agenda bears partial responsibility but there are deeper factors.
> 
> 1) Physical mobility
> The car has set people in motion to chase their dreams. At one time people lived in a community over generations. That is dead and gone.
> 
> 2) Agriculture
> There is so much food that people no longer have to worry about having a sound family unit avoid starvation. Thus, the family is not so important.
> 
> 3) Birth control
> Family creation is exclusively the decision of women. Women don't want to have as many children. They have much more time to pursue sex for the sake of pleasure.
> 
> 4) Manual labor and physical strength not longer earn high wages
> Men would be more self confident and fare better in marriage if they were the economic equal to women. In manual labor men can outperform women but those jobs are gone. Women do better in school than men. They have supplanted men in certain programs.
> 
> A vet school professor at big land grant university in the midwest told me that most of students are now women. In Sweden, where I live, the law school classes are something like 80 to 90% women today.
> 
> 5) Worship of false gods
> American men watch a lot sports on television, effectively becoming beta cheerleaders for the alpha males who make a living and who are treated like demigods. This must lower the status of men in real life. When men spend hours each week drinking beer and showing all those emotions about action that they are not part of it must destroy a lot marriages.
> 
> 6) Mindless shopping
> Both men and women buy piles of crap that get them into debt, destroying their marriages. Women are probably worse.
> 
> 7) litigious culture
> Lawyers like divorce just fine and are promoting it.
> 
> 8) Drugs and alcohol
> 
> 9) Pornography
> 
> 10) gambling
> 
> None of the factors above involve progressive politics. You can probably come up with more causes.
> 
> When it comes to progressive politics, and I would class the Huffington Post as one of their mouthpieces, there are definite anti-family ideas. I am not sure that gay marriage is wrong. One can have philosophical debate about the idea. However, one cannot expand the definition of who can marry without weakening the original institution. Fatherhood is irrelevant for a lesbian couple who want a child; they are just consumers of donor sperm and the child has no right to its father.
> 
> If having a child is right instead of a biological wonder regulated by traditional values, then the basic unit of civilization (the nuclear family based on marriage) is not so important.
> 
> All of which bring us LL dilemma: does he know what marriage means anymore? His access to his children is limited by the need to drive long distances. He, his estranged wife and children all have enough food to eat, despite the collapse of their family. His wife is having sexual relations with other men and is not forced by an undesired pregnancy to settle down with one of them.
> 
> His wife earns a living on her own and is not beholden to LL, even though he was economically successful. The crisis scene in LL's marriage took place in a casino and his wife was drinking too much.
> 
> LL doesn't seem to have support. There is no church. No MC. No relatives. He has Moxy, Frost, Conrad, etc.
> 
> LL's pain is very individual. His situation is very common.


Agriculture in US was replaced with agri-businesses

but many could substance farm if they knew how to

but I taught in inner city school, there are many hungry children

"daddy's in jail again or mama breathes into a light bulb and acts weird"

I agree with 1, 5, 6, 7 but your view is in Sweden


----------



## Chuck71

LW I think the house is in her name only


----------



## LongWalk

Chuck71 said:


> Agriculture in US was replaced with agri-businesses
> 
> but many could substance farm if they knew how to
> 
> but I taught in inner city school, there are many hungry children
> 
> "daddy's in jail again or mama breathes into a light bulb and acts weird"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with 1, 5, 6, 7 but your view is in Sweden
> 
> Another factor that will hurt marriage:
> 
> 
> 
> Right now the fear of contracting STDs (sometimes referred to as STIs for sexually-transmitted infections) such as AIDS stop many people from having affairs.
> 
> When sexual lubricants with the ability to kill STDs such as AIDS are approved, and male and female libido enhancing drugs hit the market, we will probably see a significant increase in the number of affairs.
Click to expand...


----------



## LongWalk

Chuck71 said:


> LW I think the house is in her name only


But aren't all assets share during marriage common property? Or did they have some formal separation agreement?

The timing of the final holiday together occurred right before the divorce proceedings seem to have gotten underway. Was it a last effort by his wife to double check if there was an ember of passion left besides the nostalgia?

Perhaps she wanted to distract and weaken his resolve? After more than half a year of very little contact they rolled around on a bed. LL implied that it was just making out.

LL,

Sooner or later the house will sell. That you must now spend money out savings for an apartment will also reduce your common wealth. Sad.


----------



## Chuck71

statistics are used in most cases to reinforce a point by the writer.

they can be manipulated easily

thankfully I do not pay any attention to them

as far as my own personal life

call me a non conformist 

I had little faith in our government as I grew up

in 1994 when Congress did not declare nicotine a drug

I lost what ever respect I had for them left

it proved George Carlin's point "the owners run this country

not Congress, the owners"


----------



## Chuck71

LongWalk said:


> But aren't all assets share during marriage common property? Or did they have some formal separation agreement?
> 
> The timing of the final holiday together occurred right before the divorce proceedings seem to have gotten underway. Was it a last effort by his wife to double check if there was an ember of passion left besides the nostalgia?
> 
> Perhaps she wanted to distract and weaken his resolve? After more than half a year of very little contact they rolled around on a bed. LL implied that it was just making out.
> 
> LL,
> 
> Sooner or later the house will sell. That you must now spend money out savings for an apartment will also reduce your common wealth. Sad.



I believe she bought the house last year. I do not think there

was any formal stipulations, as per LL. If there is not any, yes 

LL has rights to half. Mrs. LL was testing the waters and may 

want to keep him at arm's length until D is final. May be she 

thinks by throwing her snatch at him she can coax LL into 

not going after any % of home value. She could bait him

if he does by using children as pawns. LL should get the 50 /50

on paper ASAP. As for the making out...I think there was more 

to it. She either dished it or played "hide and seek" with it.


----------



## Chuck71

LL has better leverage if vacation home sells

but she can claim rights to that as well

I'm not sure what the laws are but if I were in his shoes

I would take the proceeds from vacation home and lock

it up for future as in children's education

But I think the vacation home is in both names

so she will most likely have her own plans on how to spend $


----------



## LongWalk

Chuck71 said:


> I believe she bought the house last year. I do not think there
> 
> was any formal stipulations, as per LL. If there is not any, yes
> 
> LL has rights to half. Mrs. LL was testing the waters and may
> 
> want to keep him at arm's length until D is final. May be she
> 
> thinks by throwing her snatch at him she can coax LL into
> 
> not going after any % of home value. She could bait him
> 
> if he does by using children as pawns. LL should get the 50 /50
> 
> on paper ASAP. As for the making out...I think there was more
> 
> to it. She either dished it or played "hide and seek" with it.


The vacation house might be underwater. He said he was going lose a few thousand.

As to what motivated her to agree to holiday together, that is not entirely clear. LL hasn't explained. What transpired during the reconnection was also unclear. However, LL was clear on one point, the emotional distance between them remained. I don't think they had sexual intercourse, but if they did there was no hysterical bonding.

Where is Moxy?


----------



## LongWalk

Haha, threadjack

Sometimes I feel like we friends who are intruding. We sit in LL's virtual kitchen, drinking neat shots of virtual whisky, laughing loudly and slapping LL on the back, to buck him up. It's late. Dawn is approaching and LL is facing reality while we sprawl on the sofas and in the guest bedrooms.

Moxy and Frost were disgusted and went home at 11:30 last night.


----------



## Frostflower

lostLove77 said:


> Support hearing in domestic court tomorrow. Should be good times.
> 
> Not much else to say right now. Trying to focus on next steps for myself a d the girls and really frustrated by this vacation home. Will be getting an apartment if it doesn't sell and use savings to pay for it. Lawyer going to go after her to pay half of the mortgage of the beach house. Interested to see her reaction to that. She may not be getting as much as she hoped for during this hearing.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Good lock in court, Lost. Hope it goes well for you.

Your focus is in the right place.


----------



## LongWalk

Frosty,

Please pass the whisky. 

Do you think LL should seek a 50/50 division of assets?


----------



## happyman64

LL

Good luck in court. I hope your wife gets a few surprises.

One of them being that you will not roll over and just fade away from your family.

Keep your eyes and ears open today. Because I believe you are finally going to see what she has had planned for awhile.

She will be moving out of limbo and doing her best to leave you there.

So get tough and keep your attorney working for you and your best interests.

HM


----------



## LongWalk

Agreed HM. Do you think she has shared these plans for the disposal of LL with Baldy (POSOM1) or POSOM3? Did they encourage here to see LL as a jerk who deserved to be dumped? Did they aid in the rewriting of history?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## happyman64

Maybe LW.

But I think his wife has been in control from the beginning.

LL let her move him into the vacation home.

And for a person who did not want a relationship and just wanted to be on her own sure has been "dating" plenty IMO.

HM


----------



## catcalls

lostLove77 said:


> This hearing is for support. Custody hearing on the 30th. Which is insane. We both agree 50/50 with the girls. Simple agreement would suffice. Her lawyer is a gold digger and she doesn't see it. I think someone refered her and she trusts the referal more than the service she's getting. Her lawyer will not call her back, doesn't tell he next steps, nothing. Not really my problem but pisses me off cause its money from my kids ultimately. What a waste.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


poor her, how did she end up with a gold digger lawyer. another travesty of fate. just like she got accidentally bedded by POSOMs.

I fear for you, she is going to gut you open.


----------



## Conrad

happyman64 said:


> Maybe LW.
> 
> But I think his wife has been in control from the beginning.
> 
> LL let her move him into the vacation home.
> 
> And for a person who did not want a relationship and just wanted to be on her own sure has been "dating" plenty IMO.
> 
> HM


Don't listen to what they say, watch what they do.

We hear her talk, then we check Facebook, and there's always a(nother) posOM.


----------



## LongWalk

Which POSOM will make her happy? None so far
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chuck71

LongWalk said:


> The vacation house might be underwater. He said he was going lose a few thousand.
> 
> As to what motivated her to agree to holiday together, that is not entirely clear. LL hasn't explained. What transpired during the reconnection was also unclear. However, LL was clear on one point, the emotional distance between them remained. I don't think they had sexual intercourse, but if they did there was no hysterical bonding.
> 
> Where is Moxy?


in my 2nd book of trilogy, Mike and Nikki had been dating 5+ yrs

she decides to leave but night before they have sex

Mike did not know but she did...when he returned from work

next day, movers had taken her things. He never 

committed to M and kids. 

Hopefully if it was done, LL did 'one for the road'

best way to see if there is anything left

or she may be playing Mada Hari and trying to

probe for secrets

LL best of luck today


----------



## lostLove77

Thanks everyone. 

She ended up with less in support. Her lawyer was such a heartless $&@"!? My WW didn't even know the number the master put together. I had to walk her through the numbers. 

During te session I got so pissed because we had agreed through conversations that she was t going to go for alimony and we'd do 50/50 custody split. Her lawyer insured on running the ALP and would not negotiate custody to avoid another date. I said I don like being lied to after that and she couldn't understand why. Didn't speak a word to her after that and when the session ended got a text asking about going to lunch!

She had no idea what the ALP was of what the figure was the court gave us. She never even spoke to be lawyer prior to tr hearing, never got back to her. 

Well, I loved my lawyer and even she liked her. So, feeling very comfortable with my concerns moving forward but such a sad day.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Bullwinkle

A lot to endure, LL. but you are one brave SOB.


----------



## Frostflower

Sounds like her lawyer is doing a good job for you!

Glad it went well, Lost. You’re doing great.


----------



## LongWalk

She wants alimony?

Is the 50/50 parenting in writing?

Glad you're getting angry.


----------



## Conrad

lostLove77 said:


> Thanks everyone.
> 
> She ended up with less in support. Her lawyer was such a heartless $&@"!? My WW didn't even know the number the master put together. I had to walk her through the numbers.
> 
> During te session I got so pissed because we had agreed through conversations that she was t going to go for alimony and we'd do 50/50 custody split. Her lawyer insured on running the ALP and would not negotiate custody to avoid another date. I said I don like being lied to after that and she couldn't understand why. Didn't speak a word to her after that and when the session ended got a text asking about going to lunch!
> 
> She had no idea what the ALP was of what the figure was the court gave us. She never even spoke to be lawyer prior to tr hearing, never got back to her.
> 
> Well, I loved my lawyer and even she liked her. So, feeling very comfortable with my concerns moving forward but such a sad day.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She put the same amount of effort into this that she put in your marriage the last year or two.

She keeps showing you who she is.

Believe her.


----------



## LongWalk

And remember the last time she called out of the blue wanting to invite you to lunch. She wanted to warn you that Baldy was mad at her for cheating on him and she afraid he was going to "reach out to you."

When you refuse to play her game your sex ranking goes up. At this point it is probably academic since your marriage has been destroyed but least you laid out a boundary – you don't tolerate her lying about the future of your daughters. Rightly done.


----------



## moxy

I'm sorry this has gotten gritty for you LL. Thankfully, your attorney seems to be doing a good job.

I know this is a tough time. Be strong! 

Don't be swayed by her invitations to you. She is pushing for a complete split, so let her have it. 

Before you know it, your life will get better for you, even if it is tough right now.


----------



## Onmyway

Chaparral said:


> Men consistently get screwed in divorce court resulting in men unwilling to remarry.
> 
> Look up the stats for the likely hood that a women will remarry vs a man.
> 
> Progressive society has been steadily destroying the family by denigrating men and their worth.


I have to agree here, it's almost shameful to be a man now, or to posses too many manly traits, this is why the Justin Bieber's and Justin Timberlake's are so big these days, they're almost women.

And I for one will never get married again, what's the point really? Taking vows didn't protect me this time.


----------



## LongWalk

I hear you, Onmyway. Once I sat in an empty seat on a train next to a middle aged woman. I am hesitant to get into conversations in this situation because there is always a risk that they will not be interesting. We started chatting and there was a huge coincidence in our lives. Her son was foot and ankle surgeon who had been the Navy and so was my brother.

"Hard life, my brother is always, so sleep deprived," I said.

"And my son, too," she said.

One of the big worries is falling asleep at the wheel and crashing the car. My brother has destroyed a couple of cars, but so far never been injured.

Pretty soon we agreed that they ought to work less and enjoy a better quality of life. The obstacle to that was the need for money. In both families money had to be burned to create happiness. Both this woman's DIL and my SIL have a tremendous appetite to consume conspicuously.

On my last visit to my brother's I went into his bedroom with him to fetch something. We went into walk-in closet which is three times the size of my kitchen. Hanging more or less unworn was a row of suits, jackets, button down cotton shirts and pants that could not be used in the lifetime of three business executives. I should have bit my tongue, but he's my little brother so I expressed my amazement. He told me to drop it in a way that he never spoken to me before.

In retrospect, I know why he feels bad. He doesn't want all those suits and stuff. His wife loves shopping and he has spent many hours of his life following her around shopping malls when he would rather be doing other stuff, like working out, playing the with kids, etc.

This woman's was in the same situation. The MIL never let a critical word out about her view of the consumerism because she said that her DIL would cut her out of their lives immediately. She was part American Indian and had grown up poor. It really bothered her to go out to dinner and hear grandchildren complain about food in expensive restaurants.

"They order something, take one bite or look. Say they don't like it and refuse to eat it."

Men are not living according to their values. They are emasculated by a lifestyle that they don't know how to resist. Men and women need to educate themselves so that they do not mindlessly slip into these oppressive roles. Men are also guilty of being manipulated. All the hours spent watching sports on TV when they should be doing things with their wife and children.

How is wife supposed to feel sexual desire for husband because he worships Kobe Bryant. All that can do is make her wish for some fantasy man from a romance novel.

If a wife has a hundred pair of shoes, a husband should stop he buying more, not to save money but because it's obscene. A man has to say no when his wife has tried 4 or 5 lovers.


----------



## Chuck71

her actions will be noticed by the two daughters

who are their chief role model from a female PoV

she is not setting a cohesive example by any means

LL would you wish for your girls to end up doing this in 2030


----------



## Conrad

Onmyway said:


> I have to agree here, it's almost shameful to be a man now, or to posses too many manly traits, this is why the Justin Bieber's and Justin Timberlake's are so big these days, they're almost women.
> 
> And I for one will never get married again, what's the point really? Taking vows didn't protect me this time.


They're the opposite of "protection"


----------



## LongWalk

Conrad said:


> They're the opposite of "protection"


This is a profound insight. And this is why the average wedding in the US cost $25,000, to buy a better quality of marriage. 

About Patty Boyd, first wife of George Harrison and Eric Clapton:



> In 1973, Boyd's marriage to Harrison began to fail and she had an affair with Faces guitarist Ronnie Wood. She separated from Harrison in 1974 and their divorce was finalised on 9 June 1977. Boyd said her decision to end their marriage and leave Harrison was based largely on his repeated infidelities, culminating in an affair with Ringo Starr's wife Maureen, which Boyd called "the final straw". Boyd characterised the last year of her marriage as "fuelled by alcohol and cocaine", and claimed "George used coke excessively, and I think it changed him ... it froze his emotions and hardened his heart." According to Boyd, Harrison's songs "I Need You" and "Something" were written for her.


I'll bet LL's wife likes the Beatles, but then who doesn't?


----------



## moxy

Chaparral, you mention that many men are reluctant to marry after a fiscally draining divorce; wouldn't a good prenup handle that aspect for future prospects? I personally think couples should take time to sort out the details of their marriage before tying the knot and that prenuptial agreements are useful for that sort of thing.


----------



## Chaparral

LongWalk said:


> This is a profound insight. And this is why the average wedding in the US cost $25,000, to buy a better quality of marriage.
> 
> About Patty Boyd, first wife of George Harrison and Eric Clapton:
> 
> 
> 
> I'll bet LL's wife likes the Beatles, but then who doesn't?


She cheated with Eric Clapton before the divorce. Sounds like gaslighting, no?


----------



## LongWalk

LL,

Where you married in a church? Do you remember the vows?

I don't remember what my ex and I said. It was a civil ceremony with a child already in the world.


----------



## Conrad

moxy said:


> Chaparral, you mention that many men are reluctant to marry after a fiscally draining divorce; wouldn't a good prenup handle that aspect for future prospects? I personally think couples should take time to sort out the details of their marriage before tying the knot and that prenuptial agreements are useful for that sort of thing.


Mox,

Why even bother?


----------



## moxy

Conrad said:


> Mox,
> 
> Why even bother?


I think it makes the risk a bit more palatable. It also makes the whole concept a bit more practical, rather than romantic, which forces people to think about the realities of married life. I did not ask h to sign a prenup when we married; thankfully, he did not have any desire to drain me financially dry.


----------



## Chuck71

pre-nups.....heard this dozens of times

Guy-I love you and want to marry you but...there's this paper I want you to sign

Gal-You love me, want to marry me but don't trust me

at this point, grab the camcorder and get ready for a youtube moment

what gets many people is the fact, at one time there was an honest to goodness love between the two. but quoting LW here, "life is what happens when you are busy making plans." hence many are here when the 'white picket fence' myth is washed away.

I may get married again, I don't know. I do not see it in the near future at all. I never married in a church (not saying much there lol just hitched once) and I probably never will (marry in church).

Chances are the only thing I could agree on with the pastor would be who is 'the King'. In TN, you get a 75% reduction in marriage license (a joke within itself) if you seek out marriage counseling or visit the pastor of your church. Of course most choose pastor. What happens if the couple chooses pre-MC and gets a co-pay collector?

Once again the government meant well by setting stipulations in place but never acknowledged foresight. But as they say, he!! is paved with good intentions.


----------



## Conrad

moxy said:


> I think it makes the risk a bit more palatable. It also makes the whole concept a bit more practical, rather than romantic, which forces people to think about the realities of married life. I did not ask h to sign a prenup when we married; thankfully, he did not have any desire to drain me financially dry.


Only emotionally.


----------



## LongWalk

Chuck, what are vows in a civil ceremony in Tennessee? LL, probably got married in Pennsylvania.


----------



## Chuck71

Probably

the beer is chilled

wedding gifts are side of pork

it may be my child and I'm thrilled

the blood test said our family trees does fork


----------



## lostLove77

Sorry all, been busy. Moxy, I have to write to you BUT just wanted to say

CONTRACT RATIFIED!!!! Going back home!


----------



## Conrad

lostLove77 said:


> Sorry all, been busy. Moxy, I have to write to you BUT just wanted to say
> 
> CONTRACT RATIFIED!!!! Going back home!


Progress!

Great job brother.


----------



## moxy

LL, at least you're not stuck in limbo!


----------



## LongWalk

Bravo, LL!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Frostflower

Yay!


----------



## lostLove77

Don't know if I can survive this world wind of $h!t! 

Custody hearing today, in general it went well 50/50 split but my heart broke into two as they discussed holiday schedules, vacation consecutive day agreements...

Maybe I'm soft but this has really ripped me up. Legally agreeing to totally separate lives. Just too much right now.


----------



## somethingnewmaybe

Ah welcome to the nightmare. Watching the person you THOUGHT loved you negotiate split time with the children who STILL love you as if the whole thing is an inconvenience to them. 

Makes it easy to hate, huh?


----------



## Conrad

lostLove77 said:


> Don't know if I can survive this world wind of $h!t!
> 
> Custody hearing today, in general it went well 50/50 split but my heart broke into two as they discussed holiday schedules, vacation consecutive day agreements...
> 
> Maybe I'm soft but this has really ripped me up. Legally agreeing to totally separate lives. Just too much right now.


If it comforts you at all, she's been angling for this the entire time.


----------



## Tron

Conrad said:


> If it comforts you at all, she's been angling for this the entire time.


Sad, but true.

Sorry LL. Hang in there.


----------



## LongWalk

> Originally Posted by lostLove77 View Post
> Don't know if I can survive this world wind of $h!t!
> 
> Custody hearing today, in general it went well 50/50 split but my heart broke into two as they discussed holiday schedules, vacation consecutive day agreements...
> 
> Maybe I'm soft but this has really ripped me up. Legally agreeing to totally separate lives. Just too much right now.


To which Conrad observed:



> If it comforts you at all, she's been angling for this the entire time.


LL, sad for you. But as in so many TAM threads, the person you loved no longer exists. In some cases the person who replaces them may be better – most left behind spouses would not like to admit this is so – but in the case of your ex to be, this is not the case.

After four or five guys she is back to Baldy (POSOM1), a carpenter, musician, pot smoker. Actually, from your latter accounts, it sounds like she might have had an affair with one of her colleagues, one of the casino drinking crowd.

Hope you find a new place, where you can decorate new rooms for your girls. Do not consult your needy ex in the plans. Leave her out of your new life.


----------



## Tron

LongWalk said:


> Hope you find a new place, where you can decorate new rooms for your girls. Do not consult your needy ex in the plans. Leave her out of your new life.


And for the love of God don't even think for a second about moving in next door to her.


----------



## moxy

Yes, it sucks. It's painful. But, you will get through it. 

Make a list of five things that are important to your life. Post it where you can see it every day. No, one of those things cannot be your ex. By shifting your energy toward those five things, you will slowly be able to get yourself back together. What are those five things?

It's okay to feel crummy and to express it, just keep trying to get better, too.

Hang in there LL.


----------



## LongWalk

LL, was one of your ex's complaints that you were not engaged, that you were distant?

We are on this journey together. All of us are trying to draw strength, wisdom and hope from each other. Where are you? Next week (Tues) I will leave TAM for work on the road for over two weeks. I will not forget you or Moxy... Nor even my antagonist Frosty. 

When I get back I hope that you will have drawn a line between your ex and yourself. Cease to give emotional and financial support. Put your energy into yourself and your daughters. Forget about her flat tires. She will find men to service her needs. But none will last. Create a haven to shield your daughters from her disordered soul.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Frostflower

LongWalk said:


> LL, was one of your ex's complaints that you were not engaged, that you were distant?
> 
> We are on this journey together. All of us are trying to draw strength, wisdom and hope from each other. Where are you? Next week (Tues) I will leave TAM for work on the road for over two weeks. I will not forget you or Moxy... Nor even my antagonist Frosty.
> 
> When I get back I hope that you will have drawn a line between your ex and yourself. Cease to give emotional and financial support. Put your energy into yourself and your daughters. Forget about her flat tires. She will find men to service her needs. But none will last. Create a haven to shield your daughters from her disordered soul.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


For once I agree with you, LW! Have a safe trip


----------



## Chuck71

LL the way she is now......

would you honestly want to date her if you did not know her


----------



## somethingnewmaybe

Chuck71 said:


> LL the way she is now......
> 
> would you honestly want to date her if you did not know her


Such worthwhile perspective
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

Chuck71 said:


> LL the way she is now......
> 
> would you honestly want to date her if you did not know her


To ask the question is to answer it.


----------



## LongWalk

LL's wife is very indiscrete. Dating her to have sex is one thing, LTR is another. POSOM3 celebrated her birthday along with BFF. She then told LL that Mr OM3 had two weeks left. Odd. More likely he gave her a birthday banging and shortly thereafter dumped her. She added the two weeks to hide her humiliation. Would LL want to date a woman rejected by OM3? Even Baldy seems to have his doubts
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chuck71

Conrad said:


> To ask the question is to answer it.


But what happens when I do not want what I have not got?

Too early, I don't start drinking on Saturday until 10PM

or 10AM if I am out of meds


----------



## Chuck71

LongWalk said:


> LL's wife is very indiscrete. Dating her to have sex is one thing, LTR is another. POSOM3 celebrated her birthday along with BFF. She then told LL that Mr OM3 had two weeks left. Odd. More likely he gave her a birthday banging and shortly thereafter dumped her. She added the two weeks to hide her humiliation. Would LL want to date a woman rejected by OM3? Even Baldy seems to have his doubts
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


As long as LL wants her back.....safety net

each time she is dumped she can stand and glow in LLs eyes

you can bet the farm she is loving this


----------



## Conrad

Chuck71 said:


> As long as LL wants her back.....safety net
> 
> each time she is dumped she can stand and glow in LLs eyes
> 
> you can bet the farm she is loving this


The MINUTE he starts showing any disinterest, she's contacting HIM looking for connection.


----------



## Chuck71

Conrad said:


> The MINUTE he starts showing any disinterest, she's contacting HIM looking for connection.


:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:


----------



## LongWalk

I suspect that LL is going to hate his stbx before too long. He will cease to blame her lawyer, lovers and friends for her behavior because his eyes are opening. A person who does you wrong and plays innocent must run out of credibility eventually. Once LL has found a new home the situation will be different, less driving, more contact.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chuck71

The moment LL 'steps outside of himself' he will see it clear as day


----------



## Conrad

LongWalk said:


> I suspect that LL is going to hate his stbx before too long. He will cease to blame her lawyer, lovers and friends for her behavior because his eyes are opening. A person who does you wrong and plays innocent must run out of credibility eventually. Once LL has found a new home the situation will be different, less driving, more contact.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And, he will know because when he listens to her speak, he will hear the language of victim.

Once you hear it, it's impossible to go back.


----------



## LongWalk

Chuck71 said:


> But what happens when I do not want what I have not got?
> 
> Too early, I don't start drinking on Saturday until 10PM
> 
> or 10AM if I am out of meds


Chuck, you got in trouble with some colleagues in school, saying stuff like this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chuck71

Eh? I thought Europe was more laid back on drinking.

Speaking of that, from what you know, who are the worst / least 

drinking countries in the Euro area?


----------



## LongWalk

Not about the drinking, but the pin in balloon attitude. I live in Europe but was born three states north of you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lostLove77

Hi all. Sorry been ive been away from the keyboard here. Been running out of steam. Seems things are progressing with the sale. Home inspection tomorrow. Just waiting for them to try to negotiate even further on items from the report. 

Just want to say you all have been very insightful but I know I had to work this out in my own time. You said nothing is all my fault etc... But I had to come to these things on my own time. Maybe the coaching speed this up but I have been seeing some of the blame shifting. "I did terrible things BUT I did them because...."

Anyway, Chuck asked a question if I'd still want to see her and god help me the answer is still yes. I still love her deeply but I'm really tired now. I'm not unhinged and constantly reaching. I feel a bit of calm I haven't felt in a long time. I can't wait to settle in to a place local to my girls, even if its 1/4 the size. I thank you all for caring and apogize for my absence I've been reading some but have a hard time finding words to write.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

lostLove77 said:


> Hi all. Sorry been ive been away from the keyboard here. Been running out of steam. Seems things are progressing with the sale. Home inspection tomorrow. Just waiting for them to try to negotiate even further on items from the report.
> 
> Just want to say you all have been very insightful but I know I had to work this out in my own time. You said nothing is all my fault etc... But I had to come to these things on my own time. Maybe the coaching speed this up but I have been seeing some of the blame shifting. "I did terrible things BUT I did them because...."
> 
> Anyway, Chuck asked a question if I'd still want to see her and god help me the answer is still yes. I still love her deeply but I'm really tired now. I'm not unhinged and constantly reaching. I feel a bit of calm I haven't felt in a long time. I can't wait to settle in to a place local to my girls, even if its 1/4 the size. I thank you all for caring and apogize for my absence I've been reading some but have a hard time finding words to write.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Stop apologizing to us.

We're only guilty of giving a shyt.

And, we hate to see her abuse a good man in this manner.


----------



## Tron

Hi LL,

Good to see that things are moving forward with the sale. I know it must be a relief.



lostLove77 said:


> Maybe the coaching speed this up but I have been seeing some of the blame shifting. "I did terrible things BUT I did them because...."


Because...I am a terrible wife, selfish, a liar and a cheater.



lostLove77 said:


> Anyway, Chuck asked a question if I'd still want to see her and god help me the answer is still yes. I still love her deeply but I'm really tired now. I'm not unhinged and constantly reaching. I feel a bit of calm I haven't felt in a long time.


It is really good to see you finally getting there LL. I think you need to be very wary. She isn't anywhere close to good LTR material right now. All the other POSOM's seem to recognize it too.



lostLove77 said:


> I thank you all for caring and apogize for my absence I've been reading some but have a hard time finding words to write.


We really do care, brother. 

And BTW, you have never really had a lot to say. Introspective, reserved and quiet. 

It is part of your make-up. Your next woman needs to be OK with that.


----------



## happyman64

LL

I can understand still loving her because she looks like the person and sounds like the person you married.

Let us all know when you get tired of her sh!t and hold her accountable for her horrible actions and lies.

HM


----------



## Conrad

happyman64 said:


> LL
> 
> I can understand still loving her because she looks like the person and sounds like the person you married.
> 
> Let us all know when you get tired of her sh!t and hold her accountable for her horrible actions and lies.
> 
> HM


And the legion of posOM's


----------



## LongWalk

LL,
If your wife had found a cool dude who pushed all her buttons and wanted to commit to her, she might have pushed much harder for divorce. However, she wanted to try more flavors of ice cream. Sorry. Most guys don't want an LTR with MLIF of two kids who is promiscuous. She has flaunted her single life style on FB. If she is friends with colleagues at work they are going to gossip about her, such is human nature.

Even if no one says stuff directly to her face, you can be sure she senses that her reputation is damaged. She does not feel good about the sexting. Your love is something that allows her to feel better about herself. To me it is abuse.

Once you push the D forward and detach from her, she may start playing mind games. Nothing short of remorse should move you. Remorse means no private dating life. No, telephone that you cannot inspect. No secret FB flirting messages. At the beach house she said she still liked limbo. She must denounce limbo to have any chance at R.

We would be sad for Moxy if she took back her jerk husband. Two years after Dday he is still broken. He is not even trying.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chuck71

LongWalk said:


> Not about the drinking, but the pin in balloon attitude.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:scratchhead:


----------



## Chuck71

LL I will always love who my ex was many years ago

never denied the fact

We all know what you are going through

yes we all have our own personal he!!s

but in the end....there is no difference

Pop always told me if you do xxxx the outcome is xxxxx

being young dumb and stupid, I did them anyway

guess who was right.

Maybe you are exhausting all means necessary in your eyes

so when you do turn away, you have zero regrets

the turn is a momentary intense pain but is very short

you begin to feel better during the pain

then the Sun will rise

you're getting there

all we wish is for you to reach that point ASAP


----------



## lostLove77

It's hard for me to do things that are not in my heart. All these experiences seem to take little pieces of my devotion away and if she doesn't do anything to restore those pieces my emotional distance grows. And it has.

Funny, she's been VERY quiet for a few days. Wonder if the dating card is full? Funny, but I really am not hurt but those notions. Well i am, but it doesn't really affect my actions anymore. 

Conrad, I apologize because you all have taken time to provide support and I think it's rude to go dark. That's not my intention however, just so many balls in the air right now.


----------



## Chuck71

one step at a time LL

every single one of us has been where you are

if not, WTF would we have come here?

not how you start race...how you finish


----------



## Conrad

lostLove77 said:


> It's hard for me to do things that are not in my heart. All these experiences seem to take little pieces of my devotion away and if she doesn't do anything to restore those pieces my emotional distance grows. And it has.
> 
> Funny, she's been VERY quiet for a few days. Wonder if the dating card is full? Funny, but I really am not hurt but those notions. Well i am, but it doesn't really affect my actions anymore.
> 
> Conrad, I apologize because you all have taken time to provide support and I think it's rude to go dark. That's not my intention however, just so many balls in the air right now.


As long as you continue growing yours back, all good.


----------



## Frostflower

lostLove77 said:


> It's hard for me to do things that are not in my heart. All these experiences seem to take little pieces of my devotion away and if she doesn't do anything to restore those pieces my emotional distance grows. And it has.
> 
> Funny, she's been VERY quiet for a few days. Wonder if the dating card is full? Funny, but I really am not hurt but those notions. Well i am, but it doesn't really affect my actions anymore.
> 
> Conrad, I apologize because you all have taken time to provide support and I think it's rude to go dark. That's not my intention however, just so many balls in the air right now.


Lost, one of the things I respect about you is that you proceed at your own pace and along your own path, regardless of those who try to push you to go faster or in a different direction. Doing things that are not in your heart would only cause you to regret them later. You are doing great.

It is not rude to focus your time and efforts on those balls in the air. Do what you need to do. Know that we are here when you need us.


----------



## Chuck71

LL just last Thanksgiving...well the night before

it was the first time I can ever remember, not smelling a turkey

in the oven...being the night owl I was in charge of keeping eye on it

last year I was at the house alone...that night felt so empty

I recall having my face buried in my hands and not moving

for hours.....not a healthy feeling


----------



## Frostflower

Chuck71 said:


> LL just last Thanksgiving...well the night before
> 
> it was the first time I can ever remember, not smelling a turkey
> 
> in the oven...being the night owl I was in charge of keeping eye on it
> 
> last year I was at the house alone...that night felt so empty
> 
> I recall having my face buried in my hands and not moving
> 
> for hours.....not a healthy feeling


I know that was months ago, Chuck, but HUG anyway.


----------



## Chuck71

Frostflower said:


> I know that was months ago, Chuck, but HUG anyway.


it is a pain worse than death

a feeling you will never forget


----------



## Frostflower

Chuck71 said:


> it is a pain worse than death
> 
> a feeling you will never forget


I’m so sorry. I remember how I felt on our anniversary last year when my H was gone. I know I will never forget that pain. 

Take care.


----------



## LongWalk

Chuck71 said:


> :scratchhead:


You're irreverant


----------



## Chuck71

LongWalk said:


> You're irreverant


excuse me but.......I took a bath yesterday

I think........yeah I did....the creek was up


----------



## lostLove77

Chuck, that sucks and I know what you felt. That pain lives a LONG time.

ok, I generally respond in some fashion to text or calls she sends. She sent some texts asking about times to skype with the girls this evening. I responded simply with times or one word answers and I get the "are you ok" text. NO, I'm not ok. You ripped my.... anyway. Anyone got something constructive to send? I can't think of anything not passive aggressive or a lie. I know the other option is no response.... and maybe that will be it.


----------



## Tron

"That is really none of your F'in business anymore" would please me to no end...

But then again, as FrostFlower will attest, I'm kind of a nasty sort and have a foul mouth. Maybe you ought to just ignore it.

I've always liked "drop dead" too. But that one requires a special moment...just the right opportunity...to have maximum effect.

Now that you are posting with some regularity  ...keep the communications coming LL. 

As strange as it sounds, I think even ReGroup has starting to enjoy some of his exchanges with his crazy STBX. It is a way to prove to himself now of how far he has come.


----------



## LongWalk

lostLove77 said:


> It's hard for me to do things that are not in my heart. All these experiences seem to take little pieces of my devotion away and if she doesn't do anything to restore those pieces my emotional distance grows. And it has.
> 
> Funny, she's been VERY quiet for a few days. Wonder if the dating card is full? Funny, but I really am not hurt but those notions. Well i am, but it doesn't really affect my actions anymore.
> 
> Conrad, I apologize because you all have taken time to provide support and I think it's rude to go dark. That's not my intention however, just so many balls in the air right now.


What you say makes sense 100%. You are an honest person and you cherish your integrity. To see damage done to your feelings for your wife is painful and surreal. How, one wonders, could she be so indifferent to the destruction of your affection.

There was one BH who reacted to Dday by trying to cuddle his wife on their bed. She reacted in disgust by saying: "Don't do this to yourself!"

But why? Wasn't his love a good thing. He loved her even though. Wasn't that an even better love? She shat on him and his love got stronger.

I know I have harried you, LL. I hope you will forgive me for it. I even made a point of fetching Moxy here because I thought she could reach you. And she did. But the situation is complicated for understanding and empathy are not enough.

Devastated wrote:



> One thing about being cheated on by your wife - for me at least - is that when **** with other women doesn't work out, for whatever reason, it's like, meh, whatever. I've already been gutted so bad - I'm finding it difficult to give a sh*t anymore. Probably has a lot to do with not letting myself really get close to anyone or fall for anyone.
> 
> I honestly can't fathom being "in love" ever again.


Infidelity robbed him of the ability to love. For how long? Will it be so for everyone?

Why does does Bullwinkle still love his narcissistic wife? Why can't he just replace her? Why don't we just have a switch. Love off. Indifference on. Couldn't we just find someone new and appropriately appealing and click the switch back on? 

What bothers me is not just the failure of romantic love but all love. I was reading Ryo's thread and he spoke of his inability to love. He only loved two persons: his cheating WAW and his son. He wanted to love his stepdaughter but couldn't did not love his parents either because he father had abused him. He hid under his bed with pet at night to escape his father's wrath.

I was emotionally abused as a child so I recognize the distance from love. I know that I love my kids. I don't know what I feel for my parents. I suppose I love them, but I don't feel it. My mother did something a few months ago that smashed away more of my feelings for her. My own parents for Pete's sake. I want to love the. Makes me sad.

I love my youngest brother. I love his boys, my nephews like my own. My other brother, I love him, I suppose, but I never call him. Honestly I can't feel any affection for him. He sided with my dad always when I was getting abused. He couldn't help it, little guy. What could he do?

I don't love his son or daughter (my niece and nephew are around the same age as my kids). My SIL kept her kids away from mine as much as could. This hurt me and my relationship a lot. Makes me sad, too.

I wish life was like online, where you could suffer disaster and them heal to fight again without any effort. That is why we are addicted to alcohol, drugs, porn, online gaming. All the emotional rewards are immediate and controlled.

Conrad has also helped Ryo BTW.

It seems obvious that the healthier and more balanced a person is before the disaster of divorce or infidelity, the quicker the recovery. I was not really good husband material and I didn't come out of divorce stronger. My ability to love is so atrophied.

You and Moxy, Bullwinkle and ReGroup are young(er) than I am and that in itself is cause for hope. The sooner you detach from your mixed up stbxw, the sooner you will discover how your ability to love again has fared.

Your ability to love another woman is important for your children, too. If you remain isolated and depressed, your capacity to be a father will take a hit. You need to show them that you are strong and worthy of love.

I must do this, too, somehow.

As for what to tell your wife: tell her nothing. She is so used to sucking affirmation from you. You need garlic and a cross to keep her fangs out. She only cares about you like movie stars care about their fan clubs.


----------



## lostLove77

That's really hard Walk. I'm glad there are some in your family you still have a connection with. No shame in loving those that love you back and focus your time there.

Anyway, as you mentioned a switch, how about a key?
(From the concert i was at a week ago)
Wilco - Give Back The Key To My Heart @ Americanarama - Susquehanna Bank Center, Camden - YouTube


----------



## lostLove77

BTW, i responded that I was just giving her what she wanted.

Her response - "I never want silence"
LL - Well, I can't really talk to you because there is a part that's off limits


----------



## lostLove77

Double post


----------



## Frostflower

Tron said:


> "That is really none of your F'in business anymore" would please me to no end...
> 
> But then again, as FrostFlower will attest, I'm kind of a nasty sort and have a foul mouth. Maybe you ought to just ignore it.
> 
> I've always liked "drop dead" too. But that one requires a special moment...just the right opportunity...to have maximum effect.
> 
> Now that you are posting with some regularity  ...keep the communications coming LL.
> 
> As strange as it sounds, I think even ReGroup has starting to enjoy some of his exchanges with his crazy STBX. It is a way to prove to himself now of how far he has come.


Tron, you’re not nasty. You’re feisty. And some of my favorite people have foul mouths.

(Oh darn, I guess I just encouraged him!)


----------



## LongWalk

LL, do a test: sit quietly and think about people close to you that you love or believe you ought to love. Indulge the emotional resonance. For your daughters it's easy — you imagine them snuggling against you and it's warm and fuzzy. Think about different people: cousins, school pals, special teachers. Give each a bit of time whatever they deserve. Let the whisky roll in your mouth so you can savor the distillation of time.

Now think about a couple of old girlfriends. Did you include a grandparent? Now try and imagine a fantasy woman, not a sex fantasy babe but a nice person. She can be a little chubby or a little thin or whatever strikes your fancy. She is in love with you. And even if she is beautiful, she only desires to be beautiful for you. She trusts you absolutely. And you her. Can you imagine talking to her about your daughters. She listens to every word and seems almost to know them before meeting them. She is ready to bake cookies with them and love them. Who knows maybe she has a child that she wants you to accept into your heart, too.

Maybe this imaginary woman will not come to life. All there is the spectre who was your wife and lover. But she goes through this romantic fantasy regularly swapping in different faces from parties, online or the gym, wherever she is prowling and they are everyone but you. She does not even know who your replacement is, only that you are out. You must give her an equal amount of love and affection, i.e., zero.

She is the mother of your children and that is all. She will always be somebody in your life but as lovers go, she is just somebody you used to know.

Will watch the YouTube clip when I get home.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tron

Frostflower said:


> Tron, you’re not nasty. You’re feisty. And some of my favorite people have foul mouths.
> 
> (Oh darn, I guess I just encouraged him!)


Unfortunately, I don't need much encouragement...

And if I somehow became one of your favorite people I am not sure what I would do with myself. 

I might just turn into this:


----------



## Conrad

Tron said:


> Unfortunately, I don't need much encouragement...
> 
> And if I somehow became one of your favorite people I am not sure what I would do with myself.
> 
> I might just turn into this:


Could be worse:


----------



## Tron

Conrad said:


> Could be worse:


AGH!!!!!!!! 

Is that you in the bottom left?


----------



## Conrad

Tron said:


> AGH!!!!!!!!
> 
> Is that you in the bottom left?


Skip Schumaker

The former Cardinal Care Bear.


----------



## Frostflower

Tron said:


> Unfortunately, I don't need much encouragement...
> 
> And if I somehow became one of your favorite people I am not sure what I would do with myself.
> 
> I might just turn into this:


Awww! That’s the nicest thing anyone has said to me in a while.



Tron said:


> AGH!!!!!!!!
> 
> Is that you in the bottom left?


I see Conrad as Tenderheart Bear.


----------



## Chaparral

lostLove77 said:


> Chuck, that sucks and I know what you felt. That pain lives a LONG time.
> 
> ok, I generally respond in some fashion to text or calls she sends. She sent some texts asking about times to skype with the girls this evening. I responded simply with times or one word answers and I get the "are you ok" text. NO, I'm not ok. You ripped my.... anyway. Anyone got something constructive to send? I can't think of anything not passive aggressive or a lie. I know the other option is no response.... and maybe that will be it.


If she asks you if you are all right, tell her she is funny.

Go out and get a date. When you fall off a horse you have to get back on, just not the same broke down nag.


----------



## LongWalk

How much can the heart take? See my post on BW's thread.

LL, by the way, once in MC when it was already late in the game, my then wife was crying. I didn't feel pain from her tears. I felt really guilty about it. I was emotionally exhausted. You are reaching this stage IMO.


----------



## LongWalk

lostLove77 said:


> That's really hard Walk. I'm glad there are some in your family you still have a connection with. No shame in loving those that love you back and focus your time there.
> 
> Anyway, as you mentioned a switch, how about a key?
> (From the concert i was at a week ago)
> Wilco - Give Back The Key To My Heart @ Americanarama - Susquehanna Bank Center, Camden - YouTube


I watched two versions, one with the lyrics on the screen. It is right on. It explains that feeling I was describing in the my other post. I know that when you were at the concert you were wishing you were sharing it with her. Or did you go to this together? You would have mentioned that here.

Music is good for the soul. Certainly more natural than antidepressants.

The song mentioned that the love was lost to cocaine. It is not surprising that when a person is trying to fill a hole, they will try different things, new lovers, drugs, alcohol, hey whatever. That night in the casino when she was already galloping to whatever thrill could lift her out of her depression, you felt it. There was no hiding from it.

Even if you had understood all the TAM stuff and self help theories, you couldn't have stopped her. But at least you would have gotten off the train earlier.

By pushing for the divorce she has actually been more responsible in a way. Instead of giving you false hope, she finally letting the paperwork catch up to reality. Nobody following your thread thinks she is going to find whatever she is looking for. 

Time to pack, do some Internet banking and head to the airport.


----------



## lostLove77

Yeah LW, I did wish she was there but I got pretty wrapped up in that song and wished it was as easy as getting a key back. 

I don't think she's finding anything really. Maybe some independence but I think other things are leaving her flat.

Funny thing is she's not pushing for divorce, just the support and custody agreements. She's mentioned putting things on hold after that.... I'll probably push through, hell just to get my finances square.


----------



## Chuck71

Funny thing is she's not pushing for divorce, just the *support *and custody agreements

you should not be shocked by this


----------



## lostLove77

LongWalk said:


> If you really loved tennis and your opponent suddenly stopped playing or played intermittently, how long would you continue to serve into an empty court? And if a second partner did the same, how long would the love for tennis last?


Walk, this is spot on. She comes in and out of the court on her own accord only. I keep taking this but am growing weary of it only being on her terms. 

I hope getting back home lets me stand on my even more.

Chuck, it is all about the money. She's drowning financially and emotionally. It's all about her right now.


----------



## LongWalk

She has already had her mouth full of ashes. For a period of the separation every weekend that you had your daughters was romantic adventure time, but didn't score some dream dude for her fantasy LTR. Her lovers could scarcely fail to notice her cake eating. I'll bet she bragged about you as the husband who refused to stop loving her — not a turn on for a serious guy. And then there was Baldy, a guy with lower socio-economic status than you, hovering jealously in the background. If it was fun at first, the consequences sordid. That is why she kept returning to you, to spray the, as Moxy put it, the slime off. And she progrssively lost respect for you as a man.

That's over now. You put a stop to it. As you drive D forward and 180 hard, she will probably agitate more. You have to make certain she doesn't ask you to play tennis again. Nothing short of remorse can be the basis for you to reconcile. Stick your heart out on platter for her to slice and she will.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

lostLove77 said:


> Walk, this is spot on. She comes in and out of the court on her own accord only. I keep taking this but am growing weary of it only being on her terms.
> 
> I hope getting back home lets me stand on my even more.
> 
> Chuck, it is all about the money. She's drowning financially and emotionally. It's all about her right now.


As opposed to when?


----------



## Tron

LongWalk said:


> That's over now. You put a stop to it. As you drive D forward and 180 hard, she will probably agitate more. You have to make certain she doesn't ask you to play tennis again. Nothing short of remorse can be the basis for you to reconcile. Stick your heart out on platter for her to slice and she will.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree:


----------



## Chuck71

lostLove77 said:


> Walk, this is spot on. She comes in and out of the court on her own accord only. I keep taking this but am growing weary of it only being on her terms.
> 
> I hope getting back home lets me stand on my even more.
> 
> Chuck, it is all about the money. She's drowning financially and emotionally. It's all about her right now.


of course she is, she is concerned about you

LL because you are her bankroll

the moment she fears her playhouse is to be condemned 

she plays her charm card on you

notice her actions at these times

it is not about you

it is not about the kids

it is ALL about her and her freedom to bang


----------



## LongWalk

Chuck71 said:


> of course she is, she is concerned about you
> 
> LL because you are her bankroll
> 
> the moment she fears her playhouse is to be condemned
> 
> she plays her charm card on you
> 
> notice her actions at these times
> 
> it is not about you
> 
> it is not about the kids
> 
> it is ALL about her and her freedom to bang


Hi LL,

Back from a long trip. I did read TAM on the road from time to time, but nothing from you. How are things going?


----------



## LongWalk

Many good TAM threads are very long. Here is a short one that has a good ending.

A lesson in how to 180 and move on:a betrayed wife's story


----------



## LongWalk

Will Kane reposted this sage advice:



> I wish I could claim credit for this masterpiece but I can't. It belongs to very wise member from another website. It should be etched in the minds of every man and woman who has been the victim on infidelity.
> 
> Just Let Them Go
> 
> The end result?
> 
> The end result is to respect yourself in the end,
> let go of the people that don't value you or respect you.
> 
> That is the end result.
> 
> The quickest way to get a cheating spouse back is to let them go with a smile on your face wishing them the best in life and hoping that everything works out in their relationship with their affair partner.
> 
> Seriously, the quickest way to get them back.
> 
> Nothing else works better or quicker.
> 
> Let them go.
> 
> Agree with them and their feelings, "you should be with the OM, I hope he makes you happy, good bye"
> 
> Wouldn't that be true love?
> 
> If you really loved your spouse, and wanted them to have what they really want in life which is the other person they're in love with, wouldn't letting them go be the approach if you really love them?
> 
> Why focus on the affair or the drama associated with it?
> Just let them go. Give them their freedom.
> 
> You can take a good hard look at yourself in the mirror everyday and improve yourself but do it for you, not for someone else, the changes will never stick when it's done for someone else, do it for your benefit and you will probably make those changes last much longer if not indefinitely - because it's for your benefit and you realize the importance and value in that benefit because YOU are involved.
> 
> I will never tell someone to change to entice a WAW back when she's been cheating on him. I don't care how bad a marriage, there is never an excuse for cheating. That is a personal decision that someone makes to cheat on their spouse. If a marriage is really bad, leave, get a divorce, speak up to your spouse and tell them flat out "this marriage sucks and if things don't change I'm going to leave you and find someone better" and if things don't improve, leave that person.
> 
> But cheating, no excuses.
> 
> Think about cheating.
> 
> A wayward spouse who cheats on their spouse goes behind their back, secretly, telling lies, feeling guilty, getting angry at their spouse for getting in the way of their fantasies but never owning up to their actions, never admitting what they're doing. If a person who cheats on their spouse felt justified in their actions, why hide and go behind their spouses backs when they start cheating, why lie, why make up excuses about late nights at work and going to a friends place and sleeping over because they drank too much and any other such nonsense?
> 
> Deep down, the cheating spouse knows there is something inherently wrong with their actions otherwise they wouldn't lie about their actions and hide what they're doing.
> 
> Fighting the affair? For what reason?
> To compete with the OM or OW for your spouse?
> 
> What message does that communicate to your wayward spouse?
> They have lots of value and you have none because now you have to compete with another person for their love? Competing with your wayward spouse's affair partner never works, it just prolongs an ugly drama filled process.
> 
> And for your last point,
> The easiest way to show you will not tolerate cheating in your relationship is to let that person go. That is the easiest and most effective way to show this.
> 
> "Look wife/husband, I won't be in an open relationship with you, I won't give you X number of days, weeks, months to make your mind, if you really feel like you need to sit on the fence on this decision and can't decide between your affair partner and me well I will make the decision for you, you can be with them because I'm no longer an option. I love you and wish you a good life with them and hope it works out for you because it didn't work out for us. Now the best thing we can do for each other is to make this process as graceful and peaceful as possible for us and our children, I'll contact a lawyer/mediator and get started on the process of our legal separation/divorce."
> 
> You give them what they want.
> You don't fight them on this issue.
> You agree with their feelings,
> they want to be with the other person, fine they should be with the other person, let them be with the other person.
> 
> You will never convince a person to change their feelings with your arguments and logic. You can not find one member on this website in a situation where they are dealing with infidelity where they got their spouse to change their mind about how they feel about their affair partner.
> 
> You can't say "don't love them, love me instead",
> you can't say "look at me, I'm better in every way compared to your affair partner, pick me instead of them",
> you can't say "you took marriage vows, you promised to love me"
> 
> I agree, you don't have to make it easy for your wayward spouse to have an affair, but when you let them go, "lovingly detach", you don't have to worry about making it easy for them. It's no longer your concern, they can have you or them but not both and not at the same time and since they've chosen to have an affair, they've made their choice, there is no profit in fighting that decision. Let them go and move on with your life, that is the quickest, easiest way to get them back.
> 
> You definitely don't support them financially and enable them, that would be weak, wussy, clingy, insecure behavior - something in you telling you that you need to support them financially while they're having an affair, hoping they'll realize how nice you are and come back to you.
> 
> Just let them go, have them move out or you move out and live a good life without them.


----------



## Conrad

Walk,

I saw a picture of Lost - on a milk carton.


----------



## LongWalk

Conrad said:


> Walk,
> 
> I saw a picture of Lost - on a milk carton.


LL is a mysterious character. He works in an industry that requires lots of interaction. He must be a decent salesman of his skills and creativity to have afforded two houses, one on the ocean. He is a social liberal. He is kind. And as far as his wife goes this kindness is an enormous well.

LL is a bit of a loner. He seldom writes about what his friends advise him to do. Was that isolation a result of his marriage or his character?

I have less energy to cultivate friendships. I think that is something that men aren't so good at. My father was really a zero in this respect. But LL thinks well of people. He is not cynical or suspicious. Usually creative people who are not misanthropic are desired as friends.

I think that the postive strong side of LL is there but has been buried in the misery of the past couple of years. I think we are all here hoping to give him a hand or shake his hand as he emerges. He has to get angry or indifferent in order to head hin the right direction.

Lets hope he is not suffering some additional trial at this point. He might be very busy with work.


----------



## lostLove77

Hi guys. No kidnappings or murders. Been having a bit of an odd schedule staying at friends and a week of vaca with the girls at the beach house. I guess not much progress in any facet on the personal front. Still feel like a fool. 

Will follow up soon but just wanted to say hi. Moving into the new flat next Monday so been busy on all fronts and needed some time of fromTAM I guess.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

lostLove77 said:


> Hi guys. No kidnappings or murders. Been having a bit of an odd schedule staying at friends and a week of vaca with the girls at the beach house. I guess not much progress in any facet on the personal front. Still feel like a fool.
> 
> Will follow up soon but just wanted to say hi. Moving into the new flat next Monday so been busy on all fronts and needed some time of fromTAM I guess.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hang in there brother.


----------



## Tron

Voluntary time off is much better that Conrad's kind of time off.

So, tell us about your new flat. You dating yet?


----------



## Chuck71

LL when does the trampoline return to work? Schools if I recall?


----------



## LongWalk

LL, you're sounding stronger if more resigned. All you can do now is give her the wonderful freedom for which she has so longed. Your indifference is going to cause conflicted emotions for her. On the one hand she is going to really miss throwing the bucket down into the sweet clean well to hear the splash. Once she cannot draw up the the water, she is going to remind herself that she was bored with water.

How many different sugar drinks can she try? None of them are going to taste quite right. She is not the woman who can find a good guy for a stable relationship. Is she going to take her disappointment out on you or wish to minimize contact to avoid facing reality?

You're move back closer to the girl. That will mean 50/50 and a more normal life for you.


----------



## Conrad

Tron said:


> Voluntary time off is much better that Conrad's kind of time off.
> 
> So, tell us about your new flat. You dating yet?


Don't underestimate LongWalk's kind of time off


----------



## Tron

Conrad said:


> Don't underestimate LongWalk's kind of time off


I hear you have gone on "voluntary" sabbaticals too.  

After spending some time out at the lumber mill restocking, you always seem to come back refreshed and ready. 

LL may have just gone walkabout. Would not blame him after 9 months of this ****!


----------



## LongWalk

I have a feeling he is healing at last


----------



## LongWalk

From Hard to detach's

Re: Should I move on?

Originally Posted by LongWalk View Post


> You have a healthy philosophical way of looking at things. Probably you stbx finds this attractive. You haven't been begging. She went after you like the last piece of chocolate cake in the fridge that someone was going to get.
> 
> She sounds as if she is conscious that she is on her way to making a fateful choice. The question of what will become of her is an open one, but it is easy for a woman in her situation to not have the ability to get a good guy to commit. And/or she may find guys who are good in someways, but the fact that they would like to marry her, will make her doubt them.


His response


> Thank you...I received a lot of comliments like that on this trip, which reinforces that I am dealing with this in a healthy way. You're right, that and many other things she finds attractive, just not this feeling of being 'in love' that she thinks she needs.
> 
> The guys are flooding out of the woodwork to talk to her, all these guys that have been waiting in the wings for her to be free. Despite knowing that they only want one thing, she feels the need to explore, which I think she should. I will do the same but the difference with me is that I know what I want and will accept. Sure I will have my share of ONS but when I am ready for a relationship I will know what I need and I will find it. By that time she will probably still be searching for this elusive feeling and not understand why she can't be happy.


I doubt the majority of WAW would be like his. However, it is clear that giving the WAW she wants increases the chances that she will not enjoy it as much as she anticipates.


----------



## lostLove77

Hi guys,
Been so busy, no internet at home. Lots of moving BS stuff.

Strange thing is being this close in town is making me fall apart. It's really driven the point home that she doesn't want to be together yet we spend time together. It's just so guarded and limited. I've said it before but I'm at my breaking point with it.

She's started to bring up past things again, been a while since she's done that! Anyway, very conflicted period. I'm so happy to have my girls up here but the personal side is pulling me apart again. Maybe I was simply so wrapped up with the move etc...

The new condo is a great LITTLE place. It's been updated and is nice and bright, cool fireplace for the winter and I can't complain. No dating yet, horrible at the online stuff but may meet a friend's girlfriend in a few weeks. Who knows.

Well, hope to write more in a bit but still settling down and trying not to have a meltdown.


----------



## lostLove77

Hi guys,
Been so busy, no internet at home. Lots of moving BS stuff.

Strange thing is being this close in town is making me fall apart. It's really driven the point home that she doesn't want to be together yet we spend time together. It's just so guarded and limited. I've said it before but I'm at my breaking point with it.

She's started to bring up past things again, been a while since she's done that! Anyway, very conflicted period. I'm so happy to have my girls up here but the personal side is pulling me apart again. Maybe I was simply so wrapped up with the move etc...

The new condo is a great LITTLE place. It's been updated and is nice and bright, cool fireplace for the winter and I can't complain. No dating yet, horrible at the online stuff but may meet a friend's girlfriend in a few weeks. Who knows.

Well, hope to write more in a bit but still settling down and trying not to have a meltdown.


----------



## LongWalk

Now that you're close by do you think that she feels you'll spoil her single life?

Bringing up the past now? What for? Does she want you to go to IC or something?

You like music. Discover the local music scene. Find out which local bands are best. Join their FB like group and meet women there who share your taste in music. Easy to chat on FB.


----------



## lostLove77

Walk, I will have to do the music scene.

She's trying to justify why she doesn't feel in love with me. Just got off a long conversation with her over all this. I guess it's come to a head. She has no warm affection anymore, it's just friends and co-parents, she was trying but nothing rekindled. I felt we barely tried to rekindle anything but I cannot control her thoughts. So, I guess I'm out. 

So, another gut check period to go through. It's like i've made no progress at all.. Enough *****ing, thanks for caring


----------



## LongWalk

Once you start feeling better. Have dates. Wear a smile when you drop off you daughters, she may start wanting you again. Depends. But you won't want her anymore.

Ultimately, she doesn't believe that you can make her happy. So far in her search for your replacement she has failed. Her failure is going to look more distasteful to you, especially if she hooks up with guys who use her. Is she going to become a magnet for losers?


----------



## Tron

lostLove77 said:


> She's started to bring up past things again, been a while since she's done that! Anyway, very conflicted period. I'm so happy to have my girls up here but the personal side is pulling me apart again. Maybe I was simply so wrapped up with the move etc...





lostLove77 said:


> She's trying to justify why she doesn't feel in love with me. Just got off a long conversation with her over all this. I guess it's come to a head. She has no warm affection anymore, it's just friends and co-parents, she was trying but nothing rekindled. I felt we barely tried to rekindle anything but I cannot control her thoughts. So, I guess I'm out.
> 
> So, another gut check period to go through. It's like i've made no progress at all.. Enough *****ing, thanks for caring


We really care LL. You need to kill that crap from her before it even starts. "I'm tired of your **** and not going to put up with it". Hang up if you have to.

Assume the M is over my friend. Go out, try and enjoy yourself. Try the music scene like LW suggested. You need this for you. 

Ask Moxy to help you spruce up your Match profile. Whatever you have to do. 180. Take meds if you need to for a while.


----------



## Tron

LongWalk said:


> Ultimately, she doesn't believe that you can make her happy. So far in her search for your replacement she has failed. Her failure is going to look more distasteful to you, especially if she hooks up with guys who use her. Is she going to become a magnet for losers?


She already is LW.


----------



## Conrad

Tron said:


> We really care LL. You need to kill that crap from her before it even starts. "I'm tired of your **** and not going to put up with it". Hang up if you have to.
> 
> Assume the M is over my friend. Go out, try and enjoy yourself. Try the music scene like LW suggested. You need this for you.
> 
> Ask Moxy to help you spruce up your Match profile. Whatever you have to do. 180. Take meds if you need to for a while.


"I don't like where this conversation is headed"


----------



## Frostflower

Tron and Conrad are right, Lost. When she starts bringing up the past and blaming you, shut the conversation down. Dragging out past ‘sins’ (her perspective) only serves her need to justify to herself what she is doing. Don’t allow that at your expense.


----------



## Tron

Conrad said:


> "I don't like where this conversation is headed"


You gotta know I typed that first, but it just didnt feel right. Made my stomach churn.

But yes LL, Conrad and Frosty are both absolutely right. Your W deserves so much worse, but take the high road and just escape quickly. Cannot possibly go anywhere good otherwise.


----------



## happyman64

LL

Take a few deep breaths.

Now repeat after me.

"I love myself.
I respect myself.
Why would I give any thought or emotion to a woman that does not love or respect me."

Coparent with her only. And go find yourself a real woman.

Stop letting yourself go backwards.

No more relationship talks with her. No more marriage talks with her.

It is time for you to dump her.

HM64


----------



## lostLove77

Thanks all, happy thanks for the mantra. My self confidence has taken a step back and I keep letting it happen. 

I've gotten this far I have to have patience and believe positive things will happen.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## happyman64

lostLove77 said:


> Thanks all, happy thanks for the mantra. My self confidence has taken a step back and I keep letting it happen.
> 
> I've gotten this far I have to have patience and believe positive things will happen.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


sometimes it is not believing but letting good things happen.

The key is not being or seeing yourself as the victim.

You make the tough decisions to better your life and that of your kids.

It is not easy but life changing decisions never are.

You are on your way. We see it and you will soon as well.

HM


----------



## LongWalk

happyman64 said:


> LL
> 
> Take a few deep breaths.
> 
> Now repeat after me.
> 
> "I love myself.
> I respect myself.
> Why would I give any thought or emotion to a woman that does not love or respect me."
> 
> Coparent with her only. And go find yourself a real woman.
> 
> Stop letting yourself go backwards.
> 
> No more relationship talks with her. No more marriage talks with her.
> 
> It is time for you to dump her.
> 
> HM64


:iagree:

This is right on.

I should have explained more about Hard to Detach's situation. It is sort of a variation on yours. He went on a last cruise to with his STBX, sort of like your truncated week by the sea. He had really good sex with her. Moreover, he and his stbx told people they were splitting up. You know how people on these cruises spill their guts to strangers over drinks because everyone knows they'll never meet again.

Those people all told her she was crazy to leave her husband, implying that she should begging for R. But she had just had a taste of strange and wanted more. The new life was out there beckoning and she could not turn it down.

The inner promiscuous woman wanted to be liberated and she could not condemn her failed affair, so her husband was done with her although they still had the chemistry. The cruise with sex and the advice of a wise stranger could not sway her.

Your wife went on the week by the sea to attempt what she knew would not happen. You could not compete because she already wants bigger thrills than monogamy can provide. Baldy cannot compete with the other guys. No one can compete with strange.

It is possible that there is the one for her, but she has raised the bar very high now. And that is has made her LTR prospects dim, for she wants the excitement of a new chase and a new lover.

Blaming you about the past is just a cop out for her to put the responsibility for her current way of living on you. You are the one who made her drink and make out with the colleague at the casino. You are the one who let the liminal genie out of the bottle.

You'll know that she's fixing herself if she stays single for a long period of time and dates cautiously and avoids ONSs. It may happen but you sure as heck cannot afford to wait around in the hope that she will find her lost love for you. It sounds unlikely and you cannot survive in the purgatory of her caprice for months and months.

When you heal – and she will know this because you'll no longer look at her with longing eyes – she'll be envious, for you'll be on your way to being yourself again and not the cast off.


----------



## Conrad

She's angling for the victim chair.

Let her have it.

Who gives a rip?

Let her call posOM1, posOM2, posOM3, posOMinfinity

They all want the same thing.

The hell with her.


----------



## lostLove77

To be fair, I don't believe there were really any ONSs or full blown promiscuity but no need to split hairs i guess. 

She keeps saying time and time again that it's not that she doesn't feel anything but that she's "broken". I still can't get a clear idea what she means by this. Something like she has no deep feelings of commitment or longing for anyone's company.

I know, way too much focus on her. I'm still much further past that than I ever have been but it's such a long path to get here let alone fully detached.


----------



## LongWalk

You're on your way. Moxy! A hand here. Moxy is coming up, too. 

LL, you'll feel much better once you have your girls over in the new place. Do they have bunk beds their own rooms. Are you going let them paint a wall or something?

As far as her promiscuity or affairs go, it/they was/were once causing you pain but now less so. Just as long as you don't have to babysit and dream of R while she dates.

Let her sort her own head out. She has an MA in counselling, right?

Maybe someday you'll be friends. But at the present enjoy the feeling of seeing the rope fray. Suddenly the last strands will snap and you'll be free.

Interesting that getting rid of the house became a catalyst. You sold it, right?


----------



## LongWalk

The pattern is very similar.

His wife drove the tank to empty faster than yours, but arrived at the same point in life. Mother with children. Ruined relationship with husband. Desire for new sexual relationships to create meaning. Realization that the new relationships did not deliver validation. Stxh is now the only person who understands their pain and confusion.



> She told me on the trip that if things didn't work out with POSOM she wanted to go wild and do everything she ever wanted. She would make a list of all the men and women she wanted to sleep with and do it to get it out of her system. Last night when she told me that she realized I was right and all these guys were coming out of the woodwork and just wanted one thing she said her feelings about that have changed and she doesn't want to do that. She said she just wants to be alone. I don't know what to make of that other than she is mourning the loss of the relationship she thought she had. It could also be that she liked the idea of it when she thought they were 'friends' with her for more than just that and now that she realizes they only want one thing it doesn't give her the validation she needs.


----------



## LongWalk

LL, Thanks once again for share your thread with me. I have gained insight from you. Here is the latest little bit:

My eldest daughter, 18, is in her last year of high school. It's called gymnasium here and lasts one year longer than in the US. She is searching for universities now. Her grades are good but not perfect and she struggled with chemistry and math, but did better in physics than she expected.

So, she knows that getting into medical school will be tough. She could go to one of those English language programs in a Central or Eastern European country. Around 40% fail out the first year. She says she doesn't want to study in Poland. But what does she know of that country? Very little. But we have all sorts of prejudices.

She suddenly got excited about a human sciences degree at Oxford University. The same is offered at Kings College in London. I am happy that she sees public health as possible career. She rushed to the college admissions advisor to discuss her new plan.

"You don't have a chance of getting into Oxford," the woman told her.

I tell my daughter not to worry about what university but just to read more about the subjects she now considering and use the Oxford application as an inspiration. The key is to have the process become a positive experience, not the source of disappointment.

In relationships isn't this sort of choice making the same? One cannot simply pick a famous artist, actor or athlete out of a catalog and say: "That will be my mate." IRL we have to choose and commit resources to winning a particular individual, if a spouse and family are what we want. We cannot play the field day after day and expect to have deeper relationship.

Of course Hard to Detach's wife and your wife are shocked because they allowed a cake eating retreat to single behavior to blow up in their faces. It is sad for them. Baldy is not the Oxford of lovers.

My daughter got two tickets to school event that is immensely popular. The tickets are sold out and price of the scalped tickets has shot up ridiculously – teens are needy and will pay to go to this event that will be an orgy of pure fun, driven as we know by the hunt for sex and love.

She put the extra ticket up on FB for sale at the price she paid for it but the those who want it must sing a song about how cool she is. She thought this was clever. After being on TAM I recognize it instantly for what it is teenage anxiety. She has channeled her desire for validation into a harmless diversion.

The same energy could go into makeup, clothing, tattoos, etc. So, this just something to learn from. However, it is obvious that she doesn't really want affirmation from hundreds. She wants a boyfriend.

Her teammate, I gather, lost her virginity to the guy who was captain of their mixed team. Lost her virginity and was dumped. I know the guy and he is a nice kid. He was just looking for fun. She may look back at it and see it as a positive experience. It life is going well why shouldn't a no strings attached night be OK? Probably my daughter is jealous.

I don't think your wife's behavior is so very different than a teen's. Even though I wrote about her probable dalliances in lurid metaphor, it is not because I really believe that a woman having sex is something dirty and abnormal. What needed to be shouted was that she shouldn't have ben doing it at your expense. Worse, since you are father to her children, damaging you as person and weakening your ability to parent. Very selfish and immature.

Now that you are detaching from her, just how many guys she slept with and what they did becomes less painful and less important. That she went through panic at the idea of Baldy reaching out to you to expose her lack of fidelity was her meltdown. She has learned her lesson but at a high cost.

I don't think a husband can rescue a WW from such a situation, unless that person makes a leap. But your wife no longer has the energy to save your marriage. Hard to detach's wife wants to reconcile, but only so that he will safe her from her folly, not because she has recovered her love for him. She admits it openly. He refuses to be the so-called plan B guy.

You aren't going to be the plan B guy either. Your wife doesn't believe in it either. It will be interesting if she tries to sabotage your single life once it gets going.


----------



## Chaparral

The 180 really is for moving on. Fake it till you make it.

If she likes to blame it on being "broken" again, just tell her you know, she has broken you too. Tell her not to go away mad, just go away.

However she got that way, her real problem is a lack of character and morals.

You have probably read this before but just incase you have not, her is a post that has helped quite a few people. BTW, hanging onto someone that is pulling away, makes them pull harder. Its a physics thing I think. ;-)

_Originally Posted by marduk View Post 
I happened to be thinking today about the past year of my marriage. Everyone on these forums were so instrumental in my being in the great place I am today I thought I would post a note about where I was, where I am, and what I’ve learned.

A year ago my marriage was a mess. After 3 kids my stay at home wife spontaneously decided to start going out with her girlfriends again, including a “girls trip” to Vegas. She started a crazy fitness routine, including marathon running and triathalons. She started leaving me at home with the kids 2-3 evenings a week. A rough summer. I was insecure, controlling, alone, and afraid.

Thanks in part to the folks on this forum, life is much better now. My wife only goes out with her friends maybe once a month, and the last time she did, she came home early, threw her arms around me, and told me she’s so happy she gets to come home to me. She goes to the gym maybe once or twice a week for an hour or so in the early evening. When she does leave on races out of town the whole family will go on a camping trip together so we can be there for her at the finish line. The stress level in the house is much lower, and our happiness and respect for each other is much higher. Are things perfect? No – we still fight, have conflict, and disagree. But they’re shorter-lived, not has hostile, and just plain don’t seem to hurt so much. What’s changed? Me. Here’s what I learned:

1. Let her go. You can fight, hold her back, be controlling… and you’ll just look petty, insecure, and weak. Be cool, act secure, give her a kiss and say “have fun.” If she’s going to cheat or leave, she’s going to cheat or leave. It’s better if it happens sooner rather than later in my book. A marriage is a choice, a decision that’s made one day at a time. You’re in or out. This was really, really hard. But I've learned that nothing lasts forever, life is change. We can grow together or apart. I can't force her to decide to want to be with me.

2. Set boundaries, and then stick to them. I found in my marriage that it wasn’t ok to say “I don’t want you to do that” but it was ok to say “would you be ok with me doing that?” And then hold her to it. 9 times out of 10 the behaviour would go away on its own if I stuck to it. For example: if it was ok for her to be gone 2-3 nights a week so would I. After a couple of weeks she was dying to sit on the couch and watch a movie after we spent the evening with the kids together. Conversely, if it's within your boundaries, be cool with it. I started to let her off the hook for minor annoyances a lot more which cooled the stress levels.

3. Be ok with losing her. Seriously. After one of our last bad fights before things got better, I reconciled myself to thinking this might be it. The end of our marriage and little family. I thought out how things would be living on my own, sharing custody of the kids, etc. And as tough as it would be, made peace with it. It wouldn’t kill me, it wouldn’t kill my kids. Very negative experience and one I’d like to avoid at all costs, but we would survive. This changed my attitude and clinginess significantly… and to be blunt scared the hell out of my wife. Just last month she told me “I think you’d be more ok without me than I’d be without you.” And for our marriage, that balance of neediness works. I think it’s an alpha male thing, not sure but it seems to work.

4. Do my own thing. I’m out at least once or twice a week doing martial arts, yoga, weights, cross-fit, trail running, hanging with buddies… you name it. Gives me perspective and gives my wife time to miss me. And I’m in kick ass shape compared to last year, and now instead of me worrying about my wife getting hit on I’m having to deal with having her be upset because other women check me out when we go out. I’m going on a weekend martial arts training camp… and my wife couldn’t say a word after going to Vegas last year. Another thing: I make sure I either do something fun with the kids when she goes out (she’ll have to decide if it’s more important to miss out on family fun or friend fun) or I have fun while she’s out. Even something stupid like a scotch and cigar in the back yard when the kids go to bed so I can kick back and listen to the complete lack of complaining about the cigar stink. Ahh…

5. Be a father to our children. Not just “quality” time but real time. Conversations, walks in the park, helping with homework, taking them to soccer, etc. all seemed to help big time. Not just with my wife, but with all of us. And I also found my “father voice,” the voice of discipline and reason in the family. My kids listen to me a lot more, not in fear, but they know they have to listen. Now my wife comes to me when the kids don’t listen to her, not the other way around.

6. Get some buddies. Guys need close guy friends to do guy stuff. Complain about their wives. Be stupid and macho. Whatever that means to you, it worked wonders for me.

7. Fight different. Walk away rather than blow up. Mean what you say and stand up to it. For example, if I threaten that if she keeps doing x that means I'll do y, then I bloody well do y if she does x. This had two effects: I thought about what I said more, and so did my wife. I think my wife has a need to be able to hold me at my word, even if that’s a bad thing. Not sure why. Using few words in a fight, slowly and quietly while looking her directly in the eye seems to also work. Once it’s said, don’t repeat it. It is what it is.

8. Act from a place of strength. I don’t think my wife wants a weakling. She may say that she’ll want me to be more intimate, vulnerable, etc… I think that’s actually BS. Or at least that she doesn’t mean weak or actually vulnerable. If you have flaws or weaknesses either accept it and move on or fix it. I don’t let my wife try to fix my flaws any more. If she brings something up and tries to fix it I’ll ask her to mind her own business (gently). Not a behaviour that impacts her, those I’ll always try to listen to her on. But I don't let her judge me or try to live up to her expectations any more. I define myself, I don't let her do that for me.

9. Be decisive. Again I think this is an alpha male thing. Make plans. I planned a few date nights, and didn’t ask what she wanted to do. Instead I planned stuff I thought might be fun for us, and asked if she was having a good time. She was, especially if it was stuff she didn’t normally like to do (one time we went to a tattoo expo – I have one small tattoo and she has none – but got us out of our element and we had a blast!) Now if she asks me “what do you want to do” I answer with what I want. Works in bed too – I just made sure she felt comfortable in saying “no.” Don’t bully, be decisive and adaptable.

10. Know what I want from life. This is hard in today’s world. I had to pull my head out of my ass and figure out that I don’t want to sit on the couch every night and watch TV. So now I don’t. At least not every night.

11. Do more macho stuff. Fix something around the house. Dig a big hole in the back yard and plant a tree. Fixing her car, for example, seemed to turn a light bulb on in my wife’s head that reminded me that I’m a man and not one of her girlfriends.

So that’s my list. Hope it helps some of the guys out there. Your mileage may vary, and my marriage may still fail, but I’m in a much better spot in the past year than I have been in a long, long time.

Thanks for everything!_

At the time Marduke was still with his wife , the principal is the thing.


----------



## Frostflower

Great list, Chaparrel. Thanks for sharing. 

I’m curious. You say 'At the time Marduke was still with his wife , the principal is the thing.’ Does that mean they are no longer together? If so, why not? It sounds, from what he wrote, that they had found a good place.


----------



## happyman64

Frostflower said:


> Great list, Chaparrel. Thanks for sharing.
> 
> I’m curious. You say 'At the time Marduke was still with his wife , the principal is the thing.’ Does that mean they are no longer together? If so, why not? It sounds, from what he wrote, that they had found a good place.


Reach out to Marduk and ask him. He was last on Tam in April..


----------



## lostLove77

Good luck to your daughter Walk. I hope this thread helps others in some way. Maybe a text book example of what not to do?

Long weekend with the girls. It was good but they're still at the age where they want constant attention. Just gets tiring after a while. 

Anyway, thanks for the link backs Chap. Always interesting to see parallels out there. Sometimes it's scary how similar in certain regards.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LongWalk

You're on the cusp of a new life. You'll stop discussing the state of her life with so much interest as banging out the divorce will become more real. Is she going to drag her feet with the divorce?

Kids requiring attention:
You just have to go into a mode that you don't expect to get anything done except respond to their needs. Going to do outdoor activities is a good way to tire them out. Can you play catch with them in the park?

Read them stories. Draw pictures. Teach them to make pizza. Setting them down with the TV or video games for long periods is not good. That's a cop out.

Music, ah, try to teach them music if you can.

How long is the drive to get them to daycare or school? You'll have them now every other week right?


----------



## lostLove77

Walk, we're on what they call a 2/5 schedule. She has them every mon/tue, I have them every wed/thur and then we switch the other days week to week.

My drive to their school is fairly short but adds 15min to an already long drive. Probably work from home the days I have to drop off and pick them up.

Quite honestly I hate to even post some recent events because I know the response and my continued stupidity at putting myself through some of these situations in hope of putting things back together again.


----------



## happyman64

> Quite honestly I hate to even post some recent events because I know the response and my continued stupidity at putting myself through some of these situations in hope of putting things back together again.


Explain the recent events. It helps you to talk about them and shows us the dynamic of what is going on.

ANd Lost, nothing that is going is stupid.

It sucks... It is frustrating.....

And maybe you are fighting the inevitable.

But we will still be right along side no matter what.

HM


----------



## Conrad

lostLove77 said:


> Walk, we're on what they call a 2/5 schedule. She has them every mon/tue, I have them every wed/thur and then we switch the other days week to week.
> 
> My drive to their school is fairly short but adds 15min to an already long drive. Probably work from home the days I have to drop off and pick them up.
> 
> Quite honestly I hate to even post some recent events because I know the response and my continued stupidity at putting myself through some of these situations in hope of putting things back together again.


Awww, c'mon Lost.


----------



## LongWalk

LL, I don't think you can really go backwards at this point. To begin with you have tried to nice-guy resuscitate your dead marriage for a very long time. The rawness of your pain is not there anymore. That is clear from your tone of voice. You can see yourself much more clearly. You are no longer desperate because you have weathered this for months now.

Your wife is gone forever. That the two of your should fall in love again and reunite is not impossible, but only if you both heal in soul, regain self respect and feel attraction. That fairly unlikely convergence of circumstance could only occur when you are no longer needy and your sex ranking goes way up. You have an attractive girlfriend, someone who has a sense of purpose in life. Your wife may suddenly see you differently, but once you have that other relationship, your wife will not be so attractive anymore.

In fact, now that your wife has admitted to being broken – something she has not hidden from you in all of her indiscretion – you must admit that she is less attractive. Whatever fantasy of getting together again is no predicated on you making her happy. But you cannot repair her through words or orgasms because what is wrong is internal. At this point she seems to have lost her enthusiasm for dating.

I think that it is a miracle that you have been able to work and hold yourself together. You have reached the following stage. (note, the translation does not do justice to the original)

Alexandr Pushkin
(1799-1837)

List of poems

I loved you and this love by chance...

I loved you and this love by chance,
Inside my soul has never fully vanished;
No longer shall it ever make you tense;
I wouldn't want to sadden you with anguish.

I loved you speechlessly and wildly,
By modesty and jealousy was stressed;
I loved you so sincerely, so mildly,
As, God permit, you may be loved by someone else.


Я вас любил: любовь еще, быть может...

Я вас любил: любовь еще, быть может,
В душе моей угасла не совсем;
Но пусть она вас больше не тревожит;
Я не хочу печалить вас ничем. 

Я вас любил безмолвно, безнадежно,
То робостью, то ревностью томим;
Я вас любил так искренно, так нежно,
Как дай вам Бог любимой быть другим.


----------



## LongWalk

Another translation

I loved you once: perhaps that love has yet
To die down thoroughly within my soul;
But let it not dismay you any longer;
I have no wish to cause you any sorrow.
I loved you wordlessly, without a hope,
By shyness tortured, or by jealousy.
I loved you with such tenderness and candor
And pray God grants you to be loved that way again.


----------



## lostLove77

Very eloquent, I really like it.
I don't know what it is, why do i keep putting myself in this stuff, almost begging for the treatment.

Prior to moving up she said she couldn't wait till I was closer and we could spend some time together, I could finally move on with my life and everything would be easier. We spent some time together, had dinner at her place, she stopped over after her second job to hang out the other friday night... Really nothing intimate but felt like good quality time.

Some things came up in selling of the house, or the fact that she want to hang out with another guy friend etc... and made me snarky.

One evening while over at her house after we literally played tennis, we were sitting at her table talking nicely and my youngest came over and wanted her to pick her up to sit on her lap. She was straddling the chair so her legs were sort of spread. My youngest says "mommy, close your legs". She said it a couple of times and I couldn't stop laughing. 

She caught the drift and was pretty upset.

We were having dinner over here this past sunday and my computer was showing a bunch of photos for the screen saver. She told the girls to make a game of it and try to be the first one to say the name of someone in the picture. One was a picture of her on a hike we took as a family right before we split. It was of her on the trail texting on her phone. I said, "there's mommy on the phone" and it really pissed her off. She felt i was making a dig. In fact, I honestly say it was a comment out of hurt. It could have been a photo of her texting a guy while we were walking with our girls and I was trying to connect with her.

She felt disrespected and got really upset and said that it was done. We could only communicate as friends and co-parent.

However, last night i took dinner over because the girls had some late activities and didn't have time to put dinner together. SHE DIDN'T ASK, i offered it up!

Now, tonight i'm going over to play some tennis and dinner. I still like spending time with her but it is frustrating (i do feel some of the detachment you speak of Walk), but I keep doing it.

We're starting to read the same book to talk about it. It's all so strange. I still just can't believe she'd want to be anything with me if I made her feel so broken with my "coldness".

I'm a mess. Not completely falling apart emotionally but with how mixed up my head is.


----------



## ReGroup

lostLove77 said:


> Quite honestly I hate to even post some recent events because I know the response and my continued stupidity at putting myself through some of these situations in hope of putting things back together again.


Live and learn. I wish I would have posted when my separation took place... I would have been clobbered to death by these folks.

But I know it would have sped up my recovery.

No harm in making mistakes Lost.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tron

Dammit LL, you've been holding out on us. Not sure why. That's some pretty funny $hit.


----------



## Conrad

lostLove77 said:


> However, last night i took dinner over because the girls had some late activities and didn't have time to put dinner together. SHE DIDN'T ASK, i offered it up!














lostLove77 said:


> Now, tonight i'm going over to play some tennis and dinner. I still like spending time with her but it is frustrating (i do feel some of the detachment you speak of Walk), but I keep doing it.


----------



## lostLove77

You got some supply Conrad.

Just an FYI. We both had a lot of fun helping the girls through homework, getting dinner out and playing tennis. Yet she says it's over for her, it works really well for her as friends.

Well, it doesn't work at all for me. I really enjoy spending time with her but I need more than that.


----------



## Conrad

lostLove77 said:


> You got some supply Conrad.
> 
> Just an FYI. We both had a lot of fun helping the girls through homework, getting dinner out and playing tennis. Yet she says it's over for her, it works really well for her as friends.
> 
> Well, it doesn't work at all for me. I really enjoy spending time with her but I need more than that.


Ok - you're a good sport. We aren't able to really help you if you don't tell us what's going on.

When you find yourself in pain time and again, it's time for a boundary. Next time she invites you for "friend time", turn it down.

Just the little snippets you've been sharing show her as vigorously defensive and pompous.

This is the exact opposite of remorse.

If she were feeling remorse, the "mommy, close your legs" would have been one of the funniest moments you two had ever shared.

She's not showing any growth - none at all.

She's wanted you for a friend - for the convenience of you handling the children for quite some time.

It makes you feel like a chump.

End it.


----------



## Conrad

Think about it this way Lost.

I had the lumber branded with an "S" - for Synthetic.

This is simply left over from the last redwood forest we sacrificed on his behalf.


----------



## happyman64

lostLove77 said:


> You got some supply Conrad.
> 
> Just an FYI. We both had a lot of fun helping the girls through homework, getting dinner out and playing tennis. Yet she says it's over for her, it works really well for her as friends.
> 
> Well, it doesn't work at all for me. I really enjoy spending time with her but I need more than that.


Even though your wife is an idiot dont you realize she will never miss you, never feel the loss of you if you are still there for her. Still her friend.......

Get this through your thick head.

*She does not deserve you!*

HM


----------



## LongWalk

Well, she clearly enjoys the power she holds over your heart. She acts just like a cruel girl junior high school who has discovered that boys go insane over them and you can fry them like ants with a magnifying glass.

Clearly you are on to her. If you keep feeding her ego enough, she'll gather the strength to pursue new men, and sleep with them to find out how it feels again.

Once she learns your dating she'll try to sabotage it with mind games. Sorry, LL, but she's a little twisted.

"Mommy put your legs together." Your daughters are on to her, too.


----------



## lostLove77

That was truly funny!

Last night she said it was all bitter sweet and actually upset her that I'm now talking and paying attention to her and didn't give it to her when see needed it.

She said something interesting last night. She said she thought I'd just tell her to get lost and have nothing to do with her after we separated instead of trying to work on things. I asked if that would've been better and how she felt about that. Her response was, it would've broken her heart if i just walked and forgot about her.... 

She had to block ole' baldy. He has been harassing her with texts.

At least things are interesting.

PS - Thanks Happy


----------



## Tron

lostLove77 said:


> She said something interesting last night. She said she thought I'd just tell her to get lost and have nothing to do with her after we separated instead of trying to work on things. I asked if that would've been better and how she felt about that. Her response was, it would've broken her heart if i just walked and forgot about her....


She would have respected that LL. And my guess is she would have been pining for you, not the other way around. See how that works.




lostLove77 said:


> She had to block ole' baldy. He has been harassing her with texts.


LL: "I can't believe you F'ed that guy, what a loser. Well, see you later, I've got a date."


----------



## LongWalk

But LL, every guy who slept with your wife eventually descended in status and sex ranking because has self esteem issues. Every guy who tried her wares and said he wasn't interested in a relationship rose in her eyes. It's like the Groucho Marx quote about not wanting to belong to any club that would have him as member. Your wife wants something more but doesn't know what guy that is.

The miracle cool guy with a sense of humor, good looking, self confident, good job, single, loves other men's small children, etc., he is not asking your wife out. Remember that although your wife is cute and has a great smile when she's on a roll is now haunted by her indiscretions. Facebook is a killer for her.

If she meets someone knew, she has to worry about how mixed up her life has been. Smart money says she sexted and is afraid the pictures or clips will get spread around.

Don't be afraid to want your wife back, but hide those feelings, bury them, go onwards. You are healing. By the time you are feeling yourself again, she will have to have improved herself dramatically for you to take her seriously.


----------



## LongWalk

Tron said:


> She would have respected that LL. And my guess is she would have been pining for you, not the other way around. See how that works.
> 
> LL: "I can't believe you F'ed that guy, what a loser. Well, see you later, I've got a date."



Not long ago you suffered when she suffered, now you are able to laugh. You're getting your mental health back.


----------



## lostLove77

LongWalk said:


> Don't be afraid to want your wife back, but hide those feelings, bury them, go onwards. You are healing. By the time you are feeling yourself again, she will have to have improved herself dramatically for you to take her seriously.


Thanks Walk, I'm trying. Just this morning I was seriously contemplating no-contact. Its been a while since I've thought about this. I honestly thought I needed to spend time with her to show her things were a mistake. But now I cannot take the scab picking. I do honestly want her back but there is nothing I can do to affect the situation with her now.

Had a pretty cool weekend. Friday night was poker night at my new place, saturday got out in the aweome weather for some fishing with my brother and yesterday a friend hooked me up with a free ticket to the Eagles game. Great weekend yet I still felt like sh!7 about this whole relationship status. It just doesn't go away, just put off for a while.


----------



## Chaparral

Take a week away from her. Be cheerful and thoughtful,,,,,,,,,,,, but do not be there for her. Always have an excuse and then do something just to kill time if you have to. See if she cares.


----------



## Conrad

lostLove77 said:


> Thanks Walk, I'm trying. Just this morning I was seriously contemplating no-contact. Its been a while since I've thought about this. I honestly thought I needed to spend time with her to show her things were a mistake. But now I cannot take the scab picking. I do honestly want her back but there is nothing I can do to affect the situation with her now.
> 
> Had a pretty cool weekend. Friday night was poker night at my new place, saturday got out in the aweome weather for some fishing with my brother and yesterday a friend hooked me up with a free ticket to the Eagles game. Great weekend yet I still felt like sh!7 about this whole relationship status. It just doesn't go away, just put off for a while.


Lost,

For real.

When interacting with someone becomes a #3, it's time for a firmer boundary.


----------



## lostLove77

Guess I never thought of it as #3s but I can see the connection.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LongWalk

read Bagdon's thread. His situation is different because he could feel his wife pulling away and acted to change himself, getting her to fall back in love with him. Pretty amazing that he pulled it off.

The possibility of husband and wife disconnecting is an every present reality that is built into biologically, but we experience it emotionally. Bagdon's wife placed most of the economic responsibility for the family on him, although she was a lawyer. She wanted a big new house while pursuing a career as a writer.

Generally writers don't make much money but she managed to become moderately successful. Ironically, recording everything in writing became central to their story. She was writing to become successful and if she had written a best seller. She would have had enough money to dump him.

He was writing on TAM, writing very well, a lot like LostLove in terms of honesty. He took TAM coaching and forged himself a program to survive. Some ran his wife down and would have been happy to see him serve her a divorce, but he protected her image, even though he knew she was having sexual fantasies about other men while denying him sex.

She kept a diary and that is where he learned about her complete distain for him. All in all a very literary twist to the WAW story.

LL, you are clearly on the mend. If you NC her, that will not hurt your situation. For your marriage to have a ghost of chance, you must stride forward, leaving her. Every time you look back, it's like the Greek myths. The gods will punish you. You must have faith in yourself.


----------



## Chuck71

I watched my X wallow in the mess she created

.....but I still loved her

I allowed my X to compromise everything she had for a pipe dream

.......but I still loved her

I have witnessed in 2nd hand a personal version of Rome in 476

......but I still loved her

my step son is under investigation for stolen weapons 

......but I still loved him as a son

When I would tear up stuff as a kid and act out mom would whip my a$$

........but she still loved me

When I kicked over the manure bucket at the farm grandpa tore me a new a-hole

.....but he still loved me

My mom let herself to be drawn into her brother's drama via manipulation

I calmly stated earlier that she watch herself or she will be drawn in

She ignored it and I watched her get into the washing machine

when she finally looked at me one day....I knew the look

I told her why I said what I did and what was happening with her brother

she backed away and then saw it......for what it was

"Why didn't you tell me earlier" is what she asked me

My reply.....'remember when I was learning to ride a bike and you 

never warned me about going too fast?' "Not to be mean to the teachers at the 

new school" or 'don't get out with the guys and get drunk and high'

Mom and dad knew I was going to try it, no matter what

they waited until I screwed up and allowed me to learn

They 'let the steel hit me in the a$$' an old 1950s / 60s term

I learned more from my mistakes....sometimes they had to 

'let me go' to 'get me back' 

Trampoline should learn this


----------



## LongWalk

Nice, Chuck.

One of my first cousins is coping with a cheating husband and teens on marijuana. Like you, Chuck, I went into my teens at time when drug use was glamorized. Obviously, long prison sentences for smoking dope don't make sense. However, for teens the stuff can cause mental illness.

I have seen it three teens. All chidren of cousins. Heart breaking. One dope smoker used to run the mile fast as the wind. Promising talent. He ended up stealing from his mother as died of cervical cancer.

How did she get cancer? HPV. Where did the virus come from? She said her cheating ex husband number two. Who did he cheat with? A younger woman who he smoked dope with.

Woodstock was great, sort of.

I think LL's wife smoked with Baldy. He said let me play the guitar for you. He played a little then asked if she wanted to smoke some. His asking sent a rush through because she knew that getting high would lead to strange. Baldy wasn't the first she cheated with, but he was a significant EA.

What does she make of him now? Bittersweet?

Life is black coffee and white milk, a tan mix that is sometimes forgotten half drunk in the cup.

It is that so intense cider fermenting in the jug. You can just drink it as it goes bad, trying to get back the first taste.

Those girlfriends from long ago. There lips and smell are had such a soft heavy punch. We drunk on them without even knowing it. TAM calls it a fog. That is only unseeing part of love. LL's wife kept reaching out and trying to share these feelings with LL, a literal suggestive dirty poem about her cheating.

Way back in the thread I wrote to LL about his WW, feeling all wrong in bed with someone else post coital, if only the betrayed could reach out and pluck them up at moment. But that moment passes and some of the WS try to unload this later on the BS, thinking that it is sharing.

Where are Moxy and LL? Watching NFL football?


----------



## lostLove77

Hi guys,
Been around but processing things I guess. I'm still falling down but trying to pick myself up.

She's dating another person, one of the guys from earlier in the year and things look steady. I'm at a better place to say I'm at least trying not to let this affect me. Come a lonely evening it will tear at me.

Been talking and texting someone i met online. She's really sweet but I don't think she's the type of person for me. I guess I'll keep it open but she's really looking for a husband and wants kids desperately. Can just tell from some of the things she says. 

Met another friend of a friend and she seems amazing. Strong, independent woman. She's using the same lawyer as me and my friend. Hope to talk to her tonight after the girls go to bed. Really looking forward to it, but nervous. I hate to think of being left speechless! HA

I really need to leave WW alone, but it's still so hard. Some bonds are just so hard to break, yet she started it.


----------



## Awakening2012

Dear LL - 

You will get though this and on to a happier new chapter. I know it is hard to let go of the good times of the past, but look at the big picture: life is full of ages, and stages, and places and phases. Your time with her was one of them that you may have wished to end out differently. That does not detract from the good that it did bring to your life, before it went south (something I think many of us can relate to). So affirm the positive and focus on loving, valuing and bettering yourself, and the rest will fall in place. From my experience and what I've observed in other cases, don't rush yourself too much on dating -- just finding people you enjoy spending time with and re-connecting with yourself will be enough to handle for now.

Hugs,- A12


----------



## Conrad

lostLove77 said:


> Hi guys,
> Been around but processing things I guess. I'm still falling down but trying to pick myself up.
> 
> She's dating another person, one of the guys from earlier in the year and things look steady. I'm at a better place to say I'm at least trying not to let this affect me. Come a lonely evening it will tear at me.
> 
> Been talking and texting someone i met online. She's really sweet but I don't think she's the type of person for me. I guess I'll keep it open but she's really looking for a husband and wants kids desperately. Can just tell from some of the things she says.
> 
> Met another friend of a friend and she seems amazing. Strong, independent woman. She's using the same lawyer as me and my friend. Hope to talk to her tonight after the girls go to bed. Really looking forward to it, but nervous. I hate to think of being left speechless! HA
> 
> I really need to leave WW alone, but it's still so hard. Some bonds are just so hard to break, yet she started it.


Brother,

Do you have time for - yet another - book?


----------



## lostLove77

Yeah, Conrad I need to get back on the horse with the books. I have been reading novels but I did read No More Mr Nice Guy a while ago.

Need to read Married Guys Sex Life.


----------



## Conrad

lostLove77 said:


> Yeah, Conrad I need to get back on the horse with the books. I have been reading novels but I did read No More Mr Nice Guy a while ago.
> 
> Need to read Married Guys Sex Life.


Download this to your Kindle and read it before you talk to the one you value.

The Layguide: How to Seduce Women More Beautiful Than You Ever Dreamed Possible No Matter What You Look Like or How Much You Make: Tony Clink: 9780806526027: Amazon.com: Books

Don't be put off by the title.

You'll never run out of things to say - and be interesting - if you simply emphasize the parts of you women are likely to find interesting.

The guy who writes this is on it.


----------



## Tron

LostLove77 as the local PUA.

You are a devious man Conrad...I love it!


----------



## Conrad

Tron said:


> LostLove77 as the local PUA.
> 
> You are a devious man Conrad...I love it!


Emotional communication doesn't only work when you're dealing with STBXW's


----------



## LongWalk

LL, here is a thread of encouragement

By the way, I wondered why I took interest in you and Moxy, and even introduced you. I think it is because I identify with your stubborn individuality. Even if everyone kept saying, "No, come on this one-itis is just dumb, you refused to buckle. You kept faithful to your WW because it was faith in yourself that was important. I think that has impressed everyone. Hardcore TAMers like Chucky, Conrad and Frosty, and the list goes on, don't follow dull threads.

Moxy of course has long admitted her never to be ex is not good, but she does not utterly reject the beauty of her love for him. It's an uncomfortable and somewhat self destructive situation to which we sometimes cling. However, I don't think you should do violence to your sense of self.

You have made a supreme effort to save your marriage. Probably you could have done things differently, but I don't think Moxy's husband or your wife are actually growing as people. You cannot lift them up if they are unwilling to stretch out a hand. I am not even referring to R, merely a return to decency.

Now that you're getting stronger you'll probably rebound better than many others.


----------



## lostLove77

Thank you Walk. You've been a great friend. 

I don't feel like I'm recovering quite honestly. I'm am still so pissed off she wants to spend time with other people, reaches our to them with her emotional needs and then tells me she's not in love or can be in a relationship. She's known this guy for 5 months! 

Anyway will read that thread later today.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lostLove77

I read Mike's thread I hope you get there in one piece. 

Nice to read about people feeling the same thing about wishing their others felt the same pain.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LongWalk

This idea about groups is a key. We cannot survive without society. Even a social animal like a dog or a wolf can do better by itself than a lone man. The smallest group is a couple. We instinctively know how to start up the couple relationship, but we are not trusted to run marriage by ourselves without government involvement.

Your wife was a classic WAW. She wanted get drunk, lose her inhibitions and fornicate. There was little you could do, not having read the self help books or been on TAM. 

Now, though, you are pis$ed off and that is start. Just 180 her. Go the gym and work out. Buy concert tickets and invite new women friends to go.

How did you find out about the new guy? Is she still telling you about her dating life? Or are you seeing this on FB?

Your girls will happy when they see you succeed in escaping the unhealthy isolation you were in. Now you are geographically in a much better place.


----------



## Chuck71

LL you will get there....it was a year ago (next month) everything fell apart for me

but it really was not falling apart, it was an awakening

I was not happy, she was not either

I don't know if X is another "happiernow" but it does not matter

I am in a better place than last year, last five years for that matter

one day that stood out was that rock bottom day

within a week I was talking to an ex g/f and -just talking-

in life, we see only what we want ourselves to see


----------



## LongWalk

It's good for LL to take a break. I think Moxy is also more IRL.

Had good time in the pool last night, kicked some butt. You need to find positive outlets for stress to survive life's problems. That's why sports heroes involve so many. Their survival is our survival. I don't play golf, but I read about Tiger Woods, Michele Wei, Rory McWhatever. Go figure.

LL has never explained how he tracks his WW, except that she confesses various stuff to get a rise out of him. I really think that his love gave her strength to face abuse and rejection from her OMs. She may now have reached the stage that she is going to reel in one of them... she will not be happy with him either.

Three years from now, LL will have someone new and his wife is going to try and engage him in special friend soul mate conversations. He won't be interested because she'll still be trying to leech energy out of him.


----------



## lostLove77

Hi Chuck. Glad things got much better. This past month has been a very happy transformation. I can finally settle into a normal life and make connections with friends again. I'm much happier and building a base of self confidence again. I can take the girls to school, I can do homework with them, I can have a weekend with friends. 

Still have deep emotions to her. Whenever I see her its like going back to square 1.5. It's not square 1 anymore but it's still a deep longing but with it I am resentful of what I had to go though up to this point and how she acted at the end. 

Last night I had some kind of dream and woke up in a cold sweat filled with anxiety. However, once the sun rose I was fine. 

Been nice talking to a few women. Nothing serious. The woman is a strong divorced mother and can't wait to spend some time with her but we have a hard time figuring out a time between our kids schedules. The other is a much different personality but still fun to speak with her. 

anyway, it's much easier to keep contact to the girls now, sometimes I may ask if she wants to play some tennis while the girls play at the playground and she says she wants to but never sets up a time. I don't push it and just forget about it. Her lose. 

Walk, I love swimming but am terrible at it. I have a hard time getting the breathing down. Hope you get your lap times down!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lostLove77

Becoming a bigger and bigger fan of Louis CK every day. This video gives me a lot of courage:
Louis C.K. Hates Cell Phones - YouTube


----------



## LongWalk

Louis CK is great. That was a good clip... the emptiness of being alone. There must be some point to connect to marriage and betrayal but let's forget that stuff for now... OK, you can read TAM on an iPhone.

Not swimming, swimming is just the warm up.

LL, you are on the way up now. Before people would yell at you for trying to play tennis with you WW, but now there isn't any need. You are out of that utter isolation that Louis CK was describing. I cannot imagine how it was to be by the Atlantic by yourself on cold days. You went out and walked on the beach and saw some with a dog and spouse and you wanted to talk to them, but they were too far away. You smelled the salt and couldn't stop thinking about the life that you'd been robbed of.

When the girls are playing in the park play tennis with other people. She'll drive by and be jealous because she feels she is privileged to torment you and she doesn't want to renounce that right. She sent you to live by yourself to keep you on ice, but that's over.

Chuck was held prisoner by a pack of dogs.

Are you going to get your girls into tennis?


----------



## LongWalk

Louis CK on divorce


----------



## Conrad

Lost,

How does it feel inside when she turns you down?


----------



## lostLove77

C - The way she does it she says she'd love to do xyz but then nothing every happened and it would rip at me. 

I'd rather someone but right up front with me than try to have it both ways. I cannot stand her lack of commitment to a decision.

So, now anytime something comes up and she doesn't give a specific answer I almost laugh it off. 

So, for the answer - i'm indifferent now. I'd like to do these things but to he!! with it if she doesn't set a priority.


----------



## lostLove77

another great Louis clip. Guess it happened when i had kids but I am only interested in women!
Louis CK Girls VS Women - YouTube


----------



## LongWalk

LL,

When she first started cheating she was agitated and emotional. Later when she maneuvered you out she became more and more casual about jacking you around. When at last you but some 180 into effect she was mildly emotional, not wanting to suffer the silent treatment.

Whenever she has been down she has shared more information about her travails. She have done stuff together with you and your daughters but that is easy enough as long as you are not intruding into her private life. She does not want to get close to you; she wants to avoid intimacy. You have become an unattractive guy to her.

The solution is stop interacting with her start seeing other women and before long she'll be jealous. She won't want you back in all likelihood because WW & WAW have a poor percentage of reconciliation.

If you date other women, appear happy and confident, get in good shape, etc, she'll be more curious about you. Consider Flood and Carlton, two threads in which cheating wives have not faired so well. Flood exposed his wife mercilessly and divorced her. She begged for forgiveness, offered to let him cheat, bring back another woman for a threesome. He told her to pack and leave so their son didn't see her all a mess.

Carlton tried hard to repair things after he learned of the affair. She had another affair with OM2 even as they tried to reconcile. He decided to divorce her.

It seems that a soft approach has less chance of success.

After that he dated and slept with women which had her even more desperate to reconcile.


----------



## lostLove77

Yeah, I get it walk. But at the same time I did it my way with my heart. I'm proud of being honest, I made mistakes but being here now is not my fault. I can only continue on now for myself and the girls. She really is missing a very dedicated man. I don't think that comes easily.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LongWalk

lostLove77 said:


> Yeah, I get it walk. But at the same time I did it my way with my heart. I'm proud of being honest, I made mistakes but being here now is not my fault. I can only continue on now for myself and the girls. She really is missing a very dedicated man. I don't think that comes easily.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree:
Start correcting the situation now. You cannot undo the past and you should be proud of yourself because of your integrity. You may or may not change her... the metaphor someone used is chasing a cat to pet it. Everyone knows they spring away. You have let them come to you.

If you are secure and the needy you is tamed, maybe, just maybe when she realizes she in a crap relationship or leaving one, she'll look at you laughing and playing tennis, and she feel desire for you again. Since you are co parents the opportunities will always pop up.


----------



## Chuck71

LongWalk said:


> Louis CK on divorce


me likes CK

Louis CK: Stupid Facebook Posts - Oh My God (HD) - YouTube


----------



## lostLove77

She keeps reaching out to me with chit chat about the girls. Nothing really pressing. It's starting to rattle me. 

Don't know why, but today it's really bothering me. I haven't picked up or texted back. I'm in knots.


----------



## Conrad

lostLove77 said:


> She keeps reaching out to me with chit chat about the girls. Nothing really pressing. It's starting to rattle me.
> 
> Don't know why, but today it's really bothering me. I haven't picked up or texted back. I'm in knots.


Time to put up a boundary - your body is telling you.


----------



## lostLove77

But what's the conflict? I think I agree. I'm really worked up over this. I guess it's this whole thing that she left yet wants to act like we're still the best of friends... I feel abandoned.


----------



## LongWalk

LL,

After hanging out here together and shooting the breeze about our lives, I have finally had a deeper insight into your situation after one of your recent posts. You refused to apologize for being you and not following all the rules about getting control of the relationship. You poured more of your heart and soul in. We all just come and read in disbelief. After so much, you cannot just let go.

What I realized at last is that even your selfish cheating wife treasures you. The strength of your love is more than she has gotten from any of the 6 or 7 guy she has lain with since this odyssey began. After they finish – and you don't know if she is using condoms with them or is on BC or has an IUD – they may sleep with her the night. They may meet again but they are not enthusiastic about her neediness. They keep rejecting her desire for a deeper relationship.

To take the sting off the rejection, she comes to you to get that hit of love. She wants the sex from them and dreams of finding the lover who cures her heart, but she is a mess. She may settle on one of these guys but her inner dissatisfaction will not fade IMO.

Through what you have written about her I have a picture of a woman who is quite attractive. She likes to talk about herself and to create a discourse about herself. She is interested in the guys she dates to discover that they have enough interesting features to qualify them as suitors, but she is not interested them. She is too selfish to be interested others.

When she had you completely isolated and psychologically imbalanced – another example of her lack of empathy – didn't she once say that she would be friends with your future LTR girlfriend and tell her all about you? Is this a figment of my imagination or something she said at one point?

She treats you like a subject. She engages you to tether you close to her side. So, you are not abandoned at all. You are kept. You are disqualified from her bed but you are responsible for absorbing the blows to her ego, not just the thuds from her boyfriends, but her everything that makes her unhappy.

You can be certain that if she has a health problem, let's say something related to her reproductive health. She will surely tell you about and burden you with it, although you are not allowed play with it.

I would venture that your ex talks with all sorts of people about you and your marital problems when she is not trying to date new guys. 

She said she was "broken" and you should believe her. If you began living together, I'll bet you'd be sick of her in less that three months time.

Do you use the same number for clients and personal use? Can you keep your work phone on and turn your private phone off for large stretches of each day?

Stop answering her calls as often. Answer one in every 10 calls. Text her short replies, like "what's up?". You need to isolate and narrow her channels of communication.

Do you belong to a tennis club? Some clubs have ladders. Work on your game. Climb the ladder. Find doubles partners. If you find a mixed doubles partner, don't make it a date thing. Just a friend.

Moxy's eternal ex is always manipulating her. Getting rid of people who do this a good habit.


----------



## Conrad

lostLove77 said:


> But what's the conflict? I think I agree. I'm really worked up over this. I guess it's this whole thing that she left yet wants to act like we're still the best of friends... I feel abandoned.


The boundary I suggest is.

"I'm not ok with friendly chit-chat. Our conversations regarding the kids should be limited to their physical needs about school and any news on their health. Other than that, I won't be participating."


----------



## happyman64

LL
Good advice from LW and Conrad. 

And think about why you feel abandoned?? 

Because I would think by now being abandoned by your wife would be a good thing for you. 

HM
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## somethingnewmaybe

It's a vicious cycle. When we see how BAD our exes were for us but we remain angry at them for doing what they did. Mine, having left, was the single BEST thing she could have done for mine and my daughters mental health. Seriously. Yet it grinds my gears that she's out telling another story because I now know her better than she knows herself.

I too created boundaries. Healthy ones that keep me distanced. She probably tells people it's just because I'm hurt, yada yada. Not seeing how toxic and bad she is. Complete victim of her childhood, who will never find someone again who not only loved her but saw through the bs to see her for what she really is... an insecure, immature, narcissistic child. I type that out and have to remind myself that it was all an illusion and that now I can not only find some thing REAL but I will know it's real when I find it.


----------



## LongWalk

somethingnewmaybe said:


> It's a vicious cycle. When we see how BAD our exes were for us but we remain angry at them for doing what they did. Mine, having left, was the single BEST thing she could have done for mine and my daughters mental health. Seriously. Yet it grinds my gears that she's out telling another story because I now know her better than she knows herself.
> 
> I too created boundaries. Healthy ones that keep me distanced. She probably tells people it's just because I'm hurt, yada yada. Not seeing how toxic and bad she is. Complete victim of her childhood, who will never find someone again who not only loved her but saw through the bs to see her for *what she really is... an insecure, immature, narcissistic child*. I type that out and have to remind myself that it was all an illusion and that now I can not only find some thing REAL but I will know it's real when I find it.


How much of this description fits your wife LL?


----------



## lostLove77

I think she's very insecure. But other than that I'm not sure. I think she is a great person & mother. But she really did some messed up stuff to me.

I was reading another thread and the "Brick" theory came up. I think I did that a lot. I thought she was such a wonderful person and when I got upset by something, I felt bad for being mad. However, a brick went up.

I think the same thing happened with her as well. I know this is a two way street so I don't want to vilify her. I just get hurt by her casual approach that we should just be great friends getting along well together.


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## somethingnewmaybe

My biggest indicator of a disordered person was a complete lack of empathy. Like none. My wife looks through life with a pair of binoculars that only see her needs. In many ways, I was used to have a baby. Seriously. Not in the I'm going to use you and leave you sense, but she was willing to do everything it took to have a child but none of the work required to be a family. None. 

In fact, here is the crazy part. She withdrew and refused to talk through passive aggressive behaviors. It stressed me out. I had literally NO control of my marriage and her unrealistic expectations put me in a no win situation. I had anxiety and became pretty crummy to be around I imagine, but it was because I had poor boundaries and low sense of self worth to let her get away with this. Problem was two fold: 1) I had no idea what I was dealing with until she left and 2) This was my family. I guess I was willing to do what it took to make it work (even if that meant sacrificing myself). In the end, the conditions SHE created that molded MY behavior allowed her to use my behavior against me as justification for leaving. Manipulative as they come... and all for one reason; ego preservation. 

My wife fit the profile for NPD (cluster B personality disorder). If you lost yourself in your marriage and her behavior didn't add up, she's either REALLY crummy or REALLY dysfunctional. 

You don't want either in your life.


----------



## Conrad

lostLove77 said:


> I think she's very insecure. But other than that I'm not sure. I think she is a great person & mother. But she really did some messed up stuff to me.


She is likely neither of those things.


----------



## Conrad

somethingnewmaybe said:


> My biggest indicator of a disordered person was a complete lack of empathy. Like none. My wife looks through life with a pair of binoculars that only see her needs. In many ways, I was used to have a baby. Seriously. Not in the I'm going to use you and leave you sense, but she was willing to do everything it took to have a child but none of the work required to be a family. None.
> 
> In fact, here is the crazy part. She withdrew and refused to talk through passive aggressive behaviors. It stressed me out. I had literally NO control of my marriage and her unrealistic expectations put me in a no win situation. I had anxiety and became pretty crummy to be around I imagine, but it was because I had poor boundaries and low sense of self worth to let her get away with this. Problem was two fold: 1) I had no idea what I was dealing with until she left and 2) This was my family. I guess I was willing to do what it took to make it work (even if that meant sacrificing myself). In the end, the conditions SHE created that molded MY behavior allowed her to use my behavior against me as justification for leaving. Manipulative as they come... and all for one reason; ego preservation.
> 
> My wife fit the profile for NPD (cluster B personality disorder). If you lost yourself in your marriage and her behavior didn't add up, she's either REALLY crummy or REALLY dysfunctional.
> 
> You don't want either in your life.


So, you thought you were going to reason things out.

You do realize, for someone to be "reasonable", they have to be willing to own their own pos tendencies.


----------



## somethingnewmaybe

When she left the lightbulbs went on. I spent my entire marriage thinking "if I can just get her to understand my point of view". It never happened.

She moved out and told multiple people that I kicked her out. I mean, people came up to me out in public and said this to me. I cornered her on it and the reply was "who was telling you these things because I'd like to find out their true intentions".

lol what a nutcase, like anyone gives a crap enough to want to ruin her reputation. She's a child. Never matured. Likely a victim of her childhood but the family cannot address that, oh no, it would mean that they've made mistakes and aren't perfect. 

It's sad, really.


----------



## lostLove77

Conrad said:


> She is likely neither of those things.


I hope you're wrong about that. At least about being a good mother. 

I do have some issues about her introducing the girls to someone shortly after the separation. She still insists to this day they were platontic around the girls and it never turned into a relationship until later but she can't seem to understand it was never just a friendship for him. She still really confused. I pray to god, for the girls sake, she comes out of it.


----------



## somethingnewmaybe

I'm in the same boat as you
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lostLove77

Sorry, it's a pretty $hi77y boat at times.


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## Conrad

lostLove77 said:


> I hope you're wrong about that. At least about being a good mother.
> 
> I do have some issues about her introducing the girls to someone shortly after the separation. She still insists to this day they were platontic around the girls and it never turned into a relationship until later but she can't seem to understand it was never just a friendship for him. She still really confused. I pray to god, for the girls sake, she comes out of it.


That's not the kind of behavior one gets from a good mother.


----------



## Chuck71

somethingnewmaybe said:


> When she left the lightbulbs went on. I spent my entire marriage thinking "if I can just get her to understand my point of view". It never happened.
> 
> She moved out and told multiple people that I kicked her out. I mean, people came up to me out in public and said this to me. I cornered her on it and the reply was "who was telling you these things because I'd like to find out their true intentions".
> 
> lol what a nutcase, like anyone gives a crap enough to want to ruin her reputation. She's a child. Never matured. Likely a victim of her childhood but the family cannot address that, oh no, it would mean that they've made mistakes and aren't perfect.
> 
> It's sad, really.



any one who believes anything she says without taking both parties

into consideration is developmentally delayed

When I learned X and I had different thought processing

and this was way before DDay....when I mentioned something

whether it be judgement or decision

I never continued to say 'do you agree'

I said 'do you understand my point'

that was more important to me than her agreeing


----------



## Chuck71

lostLove77 said:


> I think she's very insecure. But other than that I'm not sure. I think she is a great person & mother. But she really did some messed up stuff to me.
> 
> .


Insecurity is high.....find a guy....bed the guy

Insecurity is low

the fix wears off and her insecurity is high.......

cycle

LL be glad you choose not to be a part of it

but ask yourself....does she realize (yes) what example is being set for

your young girls? 

LL what does that say about her as a person and / or mother?


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## LongWalk

LL,

I am a dysfunctional person. It stems from my childhood. I denied that there was anything wrong. Only reading TAM did I actually face the facts about my life. I don't think I have any diagnosable disorder. I am relieved that I have gained insight. So it is possible. What though can induce person to examine themselves more objectively. I mean we are talking about admitting to POS tendencies.

Why is Louis CK so funny? Well, he dares to bring up just how we all struggle with POS aspects of our personalities. Everyone has at least a fleeting embrace with sick thoughts from time to time. Otherwise, Louis CK's audiences wouldn't be laughing. They know what he is talking about.

Chuck put up the one about the Facebook films of kids dancing. It was mildly amusing until he got the truth about how much attention we actually pay to each other. At that point I was laughing... maybe I'll watch it again.

LL, do you realize how much better you sound today (these days). It was almost impossible to reason with you before. You projected various angles of two or three essential elements over and over:

1) Honest admission of your pain
2) A woman on a pedestal as high a Nelson on Trafalgar Square
3) Utter isolation
4) Self blame

At the time you were doing this I did not have my own thread. I did not consciously admit that I was emotionally abused as child. Now I can see it. Figuring out how to deal with it is another problem. Still, it is a relief to have gotten this. The sky cannot be entirely black when you have flashlight. You cannot light up the universe, but you can shine it ahead of you to avoid walking into things that will hurt you.

I don't think you're walking in the dark either. Before posters used to say just terrible things about your wife to try and shock you, so that you would stop gazing up at her.

1) Your pain. It still hurts but at least you know that being phony friends with her is like pouring salt on fresh road rash. As GutPunch would say, _if it hurts stop doing it_.
2) You have me utterly convinced that your wife is appealing, a siren that sailors would cast themselves overboard to embrace. I want to look up her skirt but she is so high up on the pedestal that it's impossible.
3) Isolation
You are out of it. The vacation home prison is gone. You sold it. How would it feel to start driving back there now to sleep?
4) Self blame
You once forced her to paint some rooms the wrong color. Maybe you did other bad stuff. But what?

Moxy does not have her permanent xtb on a pedestal at all, but she has her love for the person she imagined him to be. He never was that amazing guy, just a liar and a manipulator. Moxy knows but he still gets to her. She has to stop answering his telephone calls. What does he want from more than two years after they split?

If you make an objective list of what you wife has done to you. Name the OM she was dating and the weekends you had the kids so that she could consummate those relationships. It must have happened many times. How good a father could you have been when you knew you were watching the girls so that she could lay a new guy, or failing that settle for Baldy again?

She knew you were suffering and yet she put you and girls in that position over and over. That is not being a good mother. She should have said we are getting divorced and I am not going to talk about my boyfriends with you anymore because its none of your business.

She imposed a physical custody arrangement, including child support on you without any court or mediation. It was unfair. Bad for your kids. And it could have cost you custody and turned you into a weekend dad. She didn't go for that. Why? Not because she wants to be fair but because she wants time to chase men. What kind of mother thinks like that?

Finances: she did not care about your money situation. She hardly considers how expensive having you live in limbo has been for your collective economy. She hurt your children by doing this.

Drinking and using drugs: Her drinking was probably worse after you split. She started partying more. Smoking weed. Baldy did it. People like him generally like to get stoned to have sex. Maybe your wife let him toke up by himself, but high risk behaviors generally go together. What kind of mother was she after the party weekends? How did she look when you dropped the girls off? Some of that must stick in your mind.

Blackmail: Baldy was mad that she cheated on him with x many other guys. He threatened or she at least feared he was going reach out to you. WTF.

She said that her cell phone use was out of control, by which we infer that she sexted and wished that the clips and pictures would be erased. You never saw the stuff, but what else could have gotten her so hysterical? Good mom?

She is not empathetic.

FC Dynamites cheating WAW wants him back now. They had sex but she is mad because he did not kiss her tenderly when it was over. He feels nothing for her anymore. He cannot believe it himself because just a few months ago he was begging her for a chance at reconciliation. She scorned him and openly kept up her extra martial sexual activities, denying him any intimacy or affection.

LL, once your wife discovers you are seeing someone, a hundred bucks says she acts seductively and possessively towards you. And if by some chance you sleep with her, it will feel empty and defiling.


----------



## LongWalk

Carlton's wife and yours are similar in their attitudes. The only difference is he can take her back. Read why he won't.


----------



## moxy

lostLove77 said:


> But what's the conflict? I think I agree. I'm really worked up over this. I guess it's this whole thing that she left yet wants to act like we're still the best of friends... I feel abandoned.


Does she think you want to remain friends? Do you want to? 

Is she unsure of she wants to let you go? Does she know you still wish things could change?

It seems like maybe you're both confused about what you want. 

Hang in there. Focus on yourself and your daughters.


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## LongWalk

LL, to her you probably represent different things:

1) Co-parent
If she has any insight, she may have major doubts about her reliability as a parent. You have been fighting on to be the father in a complete nuclear family. She has been unable to replace you. So, your performance as dad has been appreciated in an exploitative way. If she had hooked up with a possessive guy who wanted to live with her and wanted her to make you very scarce, she might have treated yours fatherhood like a tumor in need of shrinkage through radiation.

Alternatively, some WAW abandon their kids in pursuit of OM. Your situation is rosy compared with this couple's. 

2) Plan B normalcy
People talk about plan B a lot on TAM. This is worthy of serious thought in life in general. Often we look at things we think we have as an option, e.g., going back to school or returning to a previous profession. In reality that option may not exist; we are deluding ourselves. Your wife keeps you are plan B in a theoretical sense, refreshing that little bit of life remaining by feeding you emotional crumbs, just as Moxy's ex calls up and tries to engage her just to keep the dead relationship alive.

You are not a mouse. You cannot exist on these tiny scraps, such as the reluctant make out session by the ocean. How vast was the Atlantic and how pitiful her passion.

She is fooling herself about plan B because you have already moved on, although you hardly realize it. If she were to take you back now, and she were not willing to be honest about her affairs and were unable to enjoy sex without reservation, I think you would give up on her. You have run a marathon and must be hungry. One slice of cold pizza with two stiff pepperoni will not satisfy you now.

3) Sanity
You were deeply unhappy but at least consistent. Your wife must consider you a rock. Once you disappear, the broken her (her own description) will be adrift. Of course she fears this change.

4) Self image
Your wife has treated you cruelly, but like many selfish narcissists she believes that she has been kind. Remember she indignantly insisted that you acknowledge that she was genuinely sorry that you were dumped. Once you break off the friends charade, then she will be forced to consider the possibility that she lost your friendship because she did you wrong.

re: friendship with ex's
Sunday was my daughter's 16th birthday. We put off celebrating at restaurant until later in the week. I went over to my ex's and we had a pleasant conversation. She vented about work. She complained about a journalist friend whose politics she can't stand. Indirectly I introduced them and they collaborated successfully. But my ex feels frustrated by her government job. I sympathized but I cannot fix these things.

She reminded my that should get my daughter a present. I think I will buy her a unicycle. Birthday daughter hardly talked to me; she was glued to her computer. I left her in peace.

Daughter 18 ate most of the Swiss chocolate I brought over. I stole a pancake. Folded a piece of chocolate around it and nuked till it melted. D18 was in a good mood and we watch YouTube clips of our sport. We replayed the slow-mo of the Danish player kneeing a Russian in the head several times. Happiness is a strange thing.

Are my ex and I friends? Sort of I guess. It is deep relationship. You will aways have a deep connection to your ex, but right now she is abusing you. You have disconnect the suckers and teeth that she has attached to you. Latter on when you have recovered you will be able to brush her off when she attempts to latch on.

A long time ago, I think you wrote about skiing. I suggested that organize a trip with your daughters. With your web skills you could bang out a little website for single parents to go to some mountain together. As the organizer and unneedy confident guy, you could have a good time and I'd be surprised if some smiling mom didn't jump forward to take charge of hot chocolate to get to know you better.

Skiing with you was once part of your ex's keep you as plan B crumbs, wasn't it?


----------



## lostLove77

Moxy, that is a huge question I haven't fully answered for myself. I used to really like her as a person as a parent and as a partner. I deeply appreciated her good qualities. But right now I'm defensive and sometimes angry around her. I still feel a very deep connection that Walk spoke of but I don't think I can fully compartmentalize our relationship to friends right now. It's going (and has) to be very hard to keep my distance but it's the only way. 

Walk, I taught her to ski many yeas ago and something we both enjoyed doing together very deeply. It was part of our fabric. But I have to put that blanket down and move on with the girls. And I really lime your idea of a single parents trip. I have to put some energy into it. 

I started dating this amazing woman I spoke about a bit ago. Only one time out so far a couple weeks ago but we text and talk every night. Going out again tonight. So excited. She's very strong and confident, something I find extremely sexy and we just seem to understand each other. She's comfortable saying no about things and expects the same. Also going out with another woman who is very nice but don't have the chemistry I have with strong and sexy. 

So, i just don't want to get ahead of myself so seeing her on Friday as well. Just trying to have some fun and keep things open. But I still have these weak moments in the morning. I don't know what it is but I think of the WW and a lot of insecurities come out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lostLove77

Funny we both talk about our exes. She says she sounds like an entitled princess and going to have a very hard time she finds me wiith somebody serious.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LongWalk

Who says that? Your ex about herself? Sounds just like the sort of thing she would say.

She admits being spoiled but does she intend to change herself?


----------



## LongWalk

My eldest daughter is hearing impaired. The deaf and hearing impaired have an association. Part of its function was to organize family social events. I always enjoyed them. One was skiing. Everybody got on a bus and headed north. We stayed in the same hotel. At the ski school for the little kids there was a sign language interpreter. Ate together. Chatted over wine while the kids ran around.

Mostly the participants were intact nuclear families, so it was not for hooking up. However, if you did a single families deal it might be confusing. I'll bet you could get the cost of your trip covered, but of course it would not be free since you would have to work to set it up. It is a very cool project from a social media point of view.

Are you in the marketing side of the web?


----------



## lostLove77

LongWalk said:


> Who says that? Your ex about herself? Sounds just like the sort of thing she would say.
> 
> She admits being spoiled but does she intend to change herself?


No, this was the new Strong and Sexy woman. She's been going through a very long divorce with 2 boys and has a really good understanding of what's been going on. She's great. When I've spoken about my ex a few times she said that she thought WW sounded very entitled and would have a really hard time once I got serious with someone else.

I'm on the design and style implementation of web development but moving more into the marketing side soon. Been a tumultuous time, life wise and now career. 

I bet those trips with your daughter were soooo much fun. I can't wait for the ski year. Thinking i'm going to get my 4yo out for the first time.


----------



## LongWalk

Your ex already promised to try and sabotage any new relationship way back long ago. She will keep that promise. If she stumbled upon you and SS drinking coffee she would wince – no, not wince – a look concern or puzzlement would pass over her face every time she saw SS smile or laugh. It would inconceivable to your ex that you could offer any topic conversation that could interest another woman, except your children and herself.

The difference between you and you ex is that she exposed your daughters to her OM shortly after hooking up with them. Wasn't there something at Easter or is my memory playing tricks on me. You won't do anything like that. Your not going to spring some dad's girlfriend maybe step mom on them until you are sure that will be good for them. SS, if she is sound of mind, will think the same. 

Skiing with my daughters was always fun. But it was a little weird when my ex and I both went together after we had split. Unfortunately on another ski trip she wiped out getting off the lift and it killed her interest in the sport. She likes running and is good at it. So each to his/her own.

It is great feeling sitting on chair lift with your kids on a sunny day, just passing the crowns of the tall pines. When I was a kid we skied on a garbage hill that took just a few seconds to descend. I am good packed snow and ice but I never learned to ski powder. It's a sort of regret.

Carving skis make turning so much easier. Now you've got me thinking about booking something. My youngest is still growing. She might not have ski wear that fits.

I Googled single parent ski trips and stuff came up.



> With the whole of the Alps at your finger tips our experienced Ski Weekends Reps will be on hand to give you advice on...
> 
> Single parent holidays are now more accessible than ever so *don’t worry about travelling alone with your kids as you will no doubt be joined by others in the same boat. So not only will your kids be making some new friends but you will also be able to enjoy the company of other single parents.*
> 
> *If you’re not tired out after a day* on the slopes then the fun doesn't have to stop when the lifts close. *There is always something to keep you* and your children entertained. With lots of evening entertainment and a variety of restaurants to eat in you will never be short of things to do.


One of the common questions the Ski Weekend Reps field:

"So are there babysitters at night when the single parents melt fondue together?"


----------



## Chuck71

LL would you consider me a friend if I exposed your D to

tobacco, liquor and gambling?

Do you still consider your W/x a friend?


----------



## lostLove77

LongWalk said:


> The difference between you and you ex is that she exposed your daughters to her OM shortly after hooking up with them. Wasn't there something at Easter or is my memory playing tricks on me.


She did take the girls to an Easter event with him and that wasn't even the first, but that one pissed me off because it was more important for her to get to that than be together as a family for a bit when i took them over. These kind of memories allowed me to answer SSC (strong, sexy and confident) honestly when she asked if I would return to a relationship with her. I said no, i really did love her but what she did to me is unacceptable and I cannot allow myself to return to that.



LongWalk said:


> You won't do anything like that. Your not going to spring some dad's girlfriend maybe step mom on them until you are sure that will be good for them. SS, if she is sound of mind, will think the same.


This was something SSC said VERY early on, no one was meeting her boys until marriage was in the picture. I sometimes feel in awe at how well adjusted & smart she is. I may not feel her equal in some regards but I damn well want to be around someone like that.


----------



## LongWalk

lostLove77 said:


> She did take the girls to an Easter event with him and that wasn't even the first, but that one pissed me off because it was more important for her to get to that than be together as a family for a bit when i took them over. These kind of memories allowed me to answer SSC (strong, sexy and confident) honestly when she asked if I would return to a relationship with her. I said no, i really did love her but what she did to me is unacceptable and I cannot allow myself to return to that.
> 
> *Which OM was this? Baldy? From what you wrote I never got the impression that your ex took him seriously. He was just a source of emotional energy that she exploited. The guy who was involved in the Easter deal was someone she wanted to have and LTR with. But he wasn't interested in her.
> 
> The fact that your ex-wife returned to Baldy after being rejected by others is part of what "broke" her. Her dream of an LTR took a real hit.
> 
> I would curious to hear what she says about marriage as an institution. I suspect she feels disillusioned but still searches for miracle man. Ironically, you were and will likely be the greatest love of her life. But she doesn't know how to write this history in her own mind. So far there is no happy ending and she doesn't like its direction.
> 
> Your ex is confused and searching. Whether SSC will be a rebound relationship or something longer, you probably cannot yet say. However, when you ex finds out, she may try to seduce you or play some odd games.
> 
> I don't think your ex is capable of falling in love with you deeply. And actually she is afraid she cannot fall in love with any man properly due to all the wounds she has inflicted on her own psyche. She will not be able to love properly again until she has repaired her self esteem.
> 
> She would need to take a break from men altogether for a period and concentrate on work and motherhood.
> *
> 
> This was something SSC said VERY early on, no one was meeting her boys until marriage was in the picture. I sometimes feel in awe at how well adjusted & smart she is. I may not feel her equal in some regards but I damn well want to be around someone like that.
> 
> *SSC looks very together compared with your ex. If she is attracted to you, take it as compliment that is deserved.
> 
> Who has gone down this strange road you have travelled? What characters we have met: Moxy, Chuck, HappyMan, Conrad, Turnera.
> 
> Your loneliness ranks with Ms GP's days of misery after she destroyed her marriage and devoted her life to her addictions. Her situation was more catastrophic, but your isolation was very similar. *


If it could be measured, I suppose now that you have stopped digging for info about your ex on FB or through mutual friends. You have lost interest. She on the other hand is starting research what is going on. Why is she now losing you? It irritates her.


----------



## LongWalk

Chuck71 said:


> LL would you consider me a friend if I exposed your D to
> 
> tobacco, liquor and gambling?
> 
> Do you still consider your W/x a friend?


There are many great blues songs about whisky, cigars and cards.


----------



## lostLove77

Chuck, I would not. However I have seen how she is most of the time with these girls. She can be a good mother. She however has made some mistakes and I hope she's working on it. I haven't seen anything lately that would alarm me. 

Walk, this last post I have reread many times. You are correct, I no longer dig. I don't want to know anymore. I saw enough to put a knife through my heart but for a whole I could not accept it was real. I honestly don't know what did it, but it was like one day all that hand wringing disappeared. There was still a huge wound but it was very different. I cannot believe that it was almost like a flip of the switch. 

Sure, I still think of her and mourn but it's not the same. SSC said something a but ago. I now have a huge web of connections and memories that are blocking me. Each strand is a memory or connection to a person we have together. I now have to take a pair of scissors and clip each one away, one by one as I encounter them. It will take time but it's sure progress. 

Hope you're having a great weekend everyone. She's coming over soon to hang out and help pick some new curtains for the pad. I feel like I'm 20 again! Nervous about having her at my place!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## happyman64

Don't be nervous. Get the curtains but make sure you like them as well.

Because when you have a GF over you want the place to represent you.

Not her.


----------



## lostLove77

Thanks happy. Couldn't have gone better.


----------



## happyman64

Good for you my man.


----------



## Frostflower

Am I lost? Thought this was lostLove’s thread, but this is the thread of a man who knows where he’s going, and sounds happy about it. Congratulations, whoever you are!


----------



## LongWalk

Do you your daughters have bunk beds?


----------



## lostLove77

Thanks Frost, missed you.

Yeah Walk, only have a 2 bedrooom at the moment.


----------



## Conrad

LongWalk said:


> If it could be measured, I suppose now that you have stopped digging for info about your ex on FB or through mutual friends. You have lost interest. She on the other hand is starting research what is going on. Why is she now losing you? It irritates her.


Indeed… his role in perpetuity was for her to use as toilet paper.

What is wrong with him?


----------



## LongWalk

The size of the apartment doesn't matter. Read those girls stories on the couch. The world of books is huge.


----------



## lostLove77

ok, i HAVE to post today. First wedding anniversary apart. I was REALLY dreading this day earlier this week. Funny, it's here and I don't seem to care too much. Yesterday was miserable. We were together for the girls' halloween parades and my anger and tension just oozes out around her. I don't like myself around her. The anger has come and it just bubbles up anytime I'm around her. 

I don't like this. I don't like that i'm not numb to her and all that sh17 history. Things with SSC are VERY good and I don't think i have ever spoken with someone like her but whenever I get these emotions around the EX i feel like I must have one finger still in this past relationship and I DO NOT want that.

I don't get much time with SSC because she has her boys almost all the time and I have my girls 50/50 and we're on opposite weekends. I'm working on changing mine now but only get to see her about every other week. We still talk a lot but it's hard.


----------



## Conrad

lostLove77 said:


> ok, i HAVE to post today. First wedding anniversary apart. I was REALLY dreading this day earlier this week. Funny, it's here and I don't seem to care too much. Yesterday was miserable. We were together for the girls' halloween parades and my anger and tension just oozes out around her. I don't like myself around her. The anger has come and it just bubbles up anytime I'm around her.
> 
> I don't like this. I don't like that i'm not numb to her and all that sh17 history. Things with SSC are VERY good and I don't think i have ever spoken with someone like her but whenever I get these emotions around the EX i feel like I must have one finger still in this past relationship and I DO NOT want that.
> 
> I don't get much time with SSC because she has her boys almost all the time and I have my girls 50/50 and we're on opposite weekends. I'm working on changing mine now but only get to see her about every other week. We still talk a lot but it's hard.


Draw a firmer boundary.

Protect yourself.


----------



## happyman64

And remember LL.

You are in control of your actions, your emotions. No one else.

While you have every right to be pissed at the situation you find yourself in. That she has helped put you in.

Only you can get yourself out of it and in a better place in your life.

You have started to move forward.

Stop focusing on her and continue to focus on you. 

Improve you and everything else will fall into place.


----------



## Frostflower

Glad you got through the anniversary okay. I found the same thing when R and I were apart and our anniversary was approaching. I dreaded the day, expecting to spend it in tears. In fact, it came and went with barely an emotional ripple.

happyman is right. Focus on you. Everything else will take care of itself.


----------



## lostLove77

Thanks everyone, I'm not ready to be near her. It just causes too many emotions and I'm much more a peace while not around her.

Spent the evening with the girls and then talking to SSC till 2am. Guess it was a pretty good day.


----------



## Tron

You seem to have turned a corner LL. 

Carry on cause this is all good. 

And if you don't want to see her, don't see her. Set up your kid exchanges the way you need them. Whatever it takes or you to move on.


----------



## Frostflower

Tron is right. It upsets you to see her, so don’t until you are stronger. Do you drive the girls to her place? If so, text her that you are outside, wait till she opens the door, then let the girls go to her. Same thing for pick-up.

Tron, what the heck is that avatar??


----------



## Tron

Frostflower said:


> Tron is right. It upsets you to see her, so don’t until you are stronger. Do you drive the girls to her place? If so, text her that you are outside, wait till she opens the door, then let the girls go to her. Same thing for pick-up.
> 
> Tron, what the heck is that avatar??


And LL, I would also suggest that if avoiding your W is something you really feel you need to do to move on, hit up Blacksmith01's thread. That guy has it goin' on and has effectively shut everything down on his STBXW. All text/email communication and any time she tries to make any kind of move towards him or pull at his strings in person, she is just left flapping in the breeze. 

Frosty - The avatar is a motorcycle rider from the movie "Tron", an 80's video arcade game turned bad scifi movie. They made a sequel a few years back just as bad as the original. Spent many hours playing that video game as a teen.


----------



## lostLove77

I FIGHT FOR THE USER!!!

Thanks Tron, I'll have to see what' Blacksmith is up to. This place has really accelerated a lot of my thinking even tho i seemed hopeless.


----------



## Chuck71

Tron....had a friend play Tron on Intellivision...would play it for hours

all I had was the Atari, so I just watched

LL you've come a long way

there IS life out there without your W/x

time to enjoy it


----------



## LongWalk

Unfortunately Blacksmith's cheating WAW is not quite right in the head. So while it is good that he has managed to put an end to terrible broken marriage, he has an unstable woman on his hands. She has abandoned the children and is now trying to return to him. He no longer wants her.

She may go off the rails. Karma bus for cheater who also happened to be mom. Pretty sad for the kids. HappyMan, who is one of the better posters on TAM asked him if he would consider reconciliation if she dealt with her issues. I couldn't quite understand how he could imagine that happening.

LL, do you fear your wife going to have breakdown again? Perhaps she already experienced her worst period? 

I am curious now about neurophysiology. Can people go through stress and trauma and come out as healthy as they were? Does the brain suffer physical harm as a result of suffering?

Carlton's thread is also pretty amazing.


----------



## happyman64

LongWalk said:


> Unfortunately Blacksmith's cheating WAW is not quite right in the head. So while it is good that he has managed to put an end to terrible broken marriage, he has an unstable woman on his hands. She has abandoned the children and is now trying to return to him. He no longer wants her.
> 
> She may go off the rails. Karma bus for cheater who also happened to be mom. Pretty sad for the kids. HappyMan, who is one of the better posters on TAM asked him if he would consider reconciliation if she dealt with her issues. I couldn't quite understand how he could imagine that happening.
> 
> LL, do you fear your wife going to have breakdown again? Perhaps she already experienced her worst period?
> 
> I am curious now about neurophysiology. Can people go through stress and trauma and come out as healthy as they were? Does the brain suffer physical harm as a result of suffering?
> 
> Carlton's thread is also pretty amazing.


Ahh LW you are wise. That is the very reason I asked Blacksmith that very question. You see like I do where his wife is heading. SHe is not well and very unstable in her mind. Very sad.

HM


----------



## LongWalk

I wish he would help her, not to give forgive her cheating. That is not the issue. Her health is what matters. Her behavior is pathological. She is not capable of moral decision making. She needs a warm bath. A cup of hot chocolate and someone to tuck her into bed.

LL's ex is a stronger character, a least strong enough to know that she has made choices, strong enough to realize she has been a bully if forced to admit it. But fixing her is not LL's job.


----------



## moxy

LL, sounds like life is getting better for you and like you're moving on in ways that are healthier for your sense of joy. That is wonderful! Keep taking care of you. Keep letting the past go.


----------



## LongWalk

LL,

Please tell Moxy what got you over the hump.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ReGroup

Waiting...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lostLove77

There was definitely a hump but it's a long downhill too.

I cannot honestly say that one thing did it for me. Something finally sinks into the heart. Your head has heard EVERYTHING everyone has said and then the heart catches up somehow...

For me, I grabbed all the cool gifts, art, picture frames, expensive jeans and shirts she gave to me and put them on her front door before going on a trip to AC with a friend. After that initial drop-off i noticed a few other things and gathered them up when I took the girls back to her. I handed her the things and you should have seen the look on her face! I had also asked for the engagement ring back, i felt it was a promise we both made and she rejected that pact. She refused, I think I may request that in the divorce finances but I'm going to have an uphill battle with that. She said she's not really ready to sign divorce papers so I can't hold onto that as an agreement for me to sign.

Went out on a few dates and realized others were attracted to me. This may have been a big thing for me. I was going to be ok.

As I started to detach and go into a No Contact (not deliberately but because i didn't like how i felt after speaking to her) I met SSC. She's going through a 3 year divorce with two children. After speaking with her about a few things I really saw some issues that should have been clear warning signs for me, i had her up on a HUGE pedestal that I wouldn't see. SSC would make a comment on a story and say "that's messed up" and initially i didn't see what she meant. I didn't see the issue but she put X's actions in another light (honestly in an objective way). I could only see my faults.

I don't think Moxy has some of the issues I had. She see's where he failed her. So I don't know what can propel Moxy forward. From what I can see, Moxy you do seem to have a problem with something I felt for a long time. The emotional connection is practically a security blanket. There has to be something to fill that gaping hole that's there. I had my girls and other friendships but there is still that intimacy hole. Those amazing things still can't fill that.

What helped me was trusting that I had worked on myself and understood there was no choice but to move on. Know that you're going to feel reluctant, any interaction is going to feel odd because it's not him. But be open to slowly dating. 

I'm still not emotionally stable enough to be around her. The pain and disappointment is just too sharp at the moment. But when i'm with friends and SSC, I am me. Free of the sh!7!


----------



## lostLove77

An example of someone else's insight shedding light.

I told SSC of my eldest's birth. My X had stopped taking BC regularly. I believe she wanted a child but didn't really address it with me. I said i had wanted a family but not sure when. 

Anyway, she got pregnant and sat me down to tell me. I was ashamed at my reaction. It wasn't OH MY GOD HOW WONDERFUL! It was, wow not sure if i'm ready, are you sure??

SSC's reaction was of course you reacted that way, you weren't part of that decision. She was being selfish and wanted to be reinforced with a wonderful reaction.

Anyway, small steps in understanding.


----------



## LongWalk

Can you explain how SSC changed things. Suddenly your ex did not have a monoply on physical and emotional affection. Suddenly someone can whisper in your ear and it is not the ex. Shocking?

Interesting that you gave back all the presents. The jeans for example were not just clothes but clothes that she gave you to transform you into the image that she wanted. You do not perceive them as gifts simply to make you happy to her imprint. That ownership tag is simply not longer relevant or attractive.

LostLove as duded up, according to stbx. Not you.

I'll bet that if you ever when to a second hand shop and bought something comfortable and nice for yourself with her advice, you have kept it. You can accept that contribution but not the man she created to finally dump. Why the heck would you want to remain in the mold of the man she rejected?

She doesn't know about SSC yet, but he can feel the change and she probably burning with curiosity. SSC, so far so good. At any rate you ex has gone through a handful of men and not found what she was looking for. She is not going to like you being happy with anyone.

As for her promise to be best friends with you next SO. SSC, should she become that person, will not fall for such shxt.


----------



## Tron

LongWalk said:


> Can you explain how SSC changed things. Suddenly your ex did not have a monoply on physical and emotional affection. Suddenly someone can whisper in your ear and it is not the ex. Shocking?
> 
> Interesting that you gave back all the presents. The jeans for example were not just clothes but clothes that she gave you to transform you into the image that she wanted. You do not perceive them as gifts simply to make you happy to her imprint. That ownership tag is simply not longer relevant or attractive.
> 
> LostLove as duded up, according to stbx. Not you.
> 
> I'll bet that if you ever when to a second hand shop and bought something comfortable and nice for yourself with her advice, you have kept it. You can accept that contribution but not the man she created to finally dump. Why the heck would you want to remain in the mold of the man she rejected?
> 
> She doesn't know about SSC yet, but he can feel the change and she probably burning with curiosity. SSC, so far so good. At any rate you ex has gone through a handful of men and not found what she was looking for. She is not going to like you being happy with anyone.
> 
> As for her promise to be best friends with you next SO. SSC, should she become that person, will not fall for such shxt.


Hammer meet nail. Nice job LW!


----------



## happyman64

lostLove77 said:


> An example of someone else's insight shedding light.
> 
> I told SSC of my eldest's birth. My X had stopped taking BC regularly. I believe she wanted a child but didn't really address it with me. I said i had wanted a family but not sure when.
> 
> Anyway, she got pregnant and sat me down to tell me. I was ashamed at my reaction. It wasn't OH MY GOD HOW WONDERFUL! It was, wow not sure if i'm ready, are you sure??
> 
> SSC's reaction was of course you reacted that way, you weren't part of that decision. She was being selfish and wanted to be reinforced with a wonderful reaction.
> 
> Anyway, small steps in understanding.


Ahhhh you see life a little differently LL when your eyes are open dontcha!

Take it slow LL.

I ike how you gave her the gifts back. She will never return the engagement ring. 

The key LL is to be happy. To let yourself be happy with you. What happiness you get from others is just the fringe benefits.

Keep moving forward. Ignore your ex as best you can.

She has nothing for you. Sadly, she has nothing for herself. She is lost my man. Just let her go to wander along in life.

Now start living life.

HM


----------



## LongWalk

HappyMan,

If the ring has much value, shouldn't be part of community property?

Expensive engagement rings and weddings imply that there is no gender equality when it comes to valuation of the contribution of men and women in reproduction.

LL's wife probably feels this was the bride price for her womb. They had two daughters and as long the village elders say nothing, she will not bend.

LL, when you think back to all the weekends that you had your daughters so that she could explore herself with other men, doesn't now make your blood boil? Don't you think she kept the separation going instead of divorce because she was exploiting your hope of reconciliation to convenience herself?

Why won't she sign the divorce papers now? Her cheating began long ago and that was the end. I don't think she knows what she wants, in fact. She is cogitating. What can she extract. NC will make it more difficult for her to twist the end game in favor.

No doubt she is beginning to tell people that you turned out nasty and vindictive. She can't believe that she was blind to your pettiness.

How many mutual Facebook friends do you have?

Also, can you tell Moxy how being liberated feels?

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


----------



## Tron

The ring is generally considered a gift tied to a promise. When a fiancé backs out of a proposed marriage they are generally legally obligated to return the ring. Unless it is some kind of family heirloom, once the marriage occurs the engagement ring is hers. 

LL can try to get it taken into account as a part of the marital estate and in calculating the equitable distribution of assets, but he will not be able to force her to return it IMO.


----------



## happyman64

Tron said:


> The ring is generally considered a gift tied to a promise. When a fiancé backs out of a proposed marriage they are generally legally obligated to return the ring. Unless it is some kind of family heirloom, once the marriage occurs the engagement ring is hers.
> 
> LL can try to get it taken into account as a part of the marital estate and in calculating the equitable distribution of assets, but he will not be able to force her to return it IMO.


Correct.

And when you have a cake eater like LL's wife she will never return the ring.

To her it has monetary value only.

She will not grant him a divorce.
She will not reenter the marriage.
She will not close her legs.
She will therefore not return the ring.

She feels entitled. She is selfish. And she only thinks about herself.

LL is learning just what type of person she has truly become.

HM


----------



## Tron

happyman64 said:


> Correct.
> 
> And when you have a cake eater like LL's wife she will never return the ring.
> 
> To her it has monetary value only.
> 
> She will not grant him a divorce.
> She will not reenter the marriage.
> She will not close her legs.
> She will therefore not return the ring.
> 
> She feels entitled. She is selfish. And she only thinks about herself.
> 
> LL *finally understands* just what type of person she has truly become.
> 
> HM


Fixed that for ya.


----------



## lostLove77

will post a bit more soon but LOVE this new release. Really like that artists are revisiting some of the early ground work:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0R_rhdglVBk


----------



## LongWalk

Nice song... quite a few in that collection.

Didn't know Mazzy Star. Nice.


----------



## LongWalk

It is interesting to go to 50,000 and consider what things mean.

The engagement ring: The promise to stop dating others and to end all other sexual relations. The engagement commitment ends with marriage. So she fulfilled this.

The wedding ring: The promise to continue to stop dating others and to not engage in sexual relations with anyone other than spouse. She did not fulfill this. 

Wedding rings are much cheaper than engagement rings. Why?

1) A married woman's sex value on the relationship market sinks because she is entangled, and the entanglement is greater with children.

2) A wedding ring is just an additional investment on top of the engagement ring. Hence no need to spend more.

LL,

When did you eventual to be ex stop wearing her wedding ring? Horrible to think of a spouse's wedding ring touching the initimate parts of affair partners. No wonder couples who R sometimes buy new rings. Who knows how the old ones were polluted?


----------



## lostLove77

LongWalk said:


> Nice song... quite a few in that collection.
> 
> Didn't know Mazzy Star. Nice.


Opps, didn't realize that was a playlist link - have to update that. Lol


----------



## lostLove77

LongWalk said:


> It is interesting to go to 50,000 and consider what things mean.
> 
> The engagement ring: The promise to stop dating others and to end all other sexual relations. The engagement commitment ends with marriage. So she fulfilled this.
> 
> The wedding ring: The promise to continue to stop dating others and to not engage in sexual relations with anyone other than spouse. She did not fulfill this.
> 
> Wedding rings are much cheaper than engagement rings. Why?
> 
> 1) A married woman's sex value on the relationship market sinks because she is entangled, and the entanglement is greater with children.
> 
> 2) A wedding ring is just an additional investment on top of the engagement ring. Hence no need to spend more.
> 
> LL,
> 
> When did you eventual to be ex stop wearing her wedding ring? Horrible to think of a spouse's wedding ring touching the initimate parts of affair partners. No wonder couples who R sometimes buy new rings. Who knows how the old ones were polluted?


Walk, she stopped wearing it very early after the separation. Almost right away.

Not sure why I felt i wanted the ring back, I really felt like that was a big step and a large symbol of my feelings, if she rejected those feelings I wanted that piece of myself back.

I asked her why she wouldn't give it back, she said it was the most beautiful thing given to her and she wanted it. I may or may not ask for it in the settlement and offer to take money owed off for it. Then again, I'm thinking i'd rather have the money


----------



## LongWalk

It seems that in divorce settlements wedding rings are not even worth their weight in scrap gold. But an expensive engagement ring's beauty remains even when on the finger of an adultress. Learn something new from time to time.

Conrad is currently banned. He would doubtles have had something to say about this.

Your ex may want to rehash your divorce settlement as way of expressing her anger and disappointment at your refusal to be friends anymore. It is good that she doesn't know about SSC yet. Will just make her more difficult

When she hooks up with men now if she cannot stop herself from talking about about the endless troubles you have created by refusing to give her up and then suddenly desiring divorce, she will drive them off quickly. Any sane guy with self respect will not want a relationship with her. Even sex will be questionable.

Earlier I wondered how many mutual FB friends you have? Your relationship with SSC will likley be exposed as soon as a tagged picture appears. Your stbx will probably start searching through your friend list.


----------



## happyman64

lostLove77 said:


> Walk, she stopped wearing it very early after the separation. Almost right away.
> 
> Not sure why I felt i wanted the ring back, I really felt like that was a big step and a large symbol of my feelings, if she rejected those feelings I wanted that piece of myself back.
> 
> I asked her why she wouldn't give it back, she said it was the most beautiful thing given to her and she wanted it. I may or may not ask for it in the settlement and offer to take money owed off for it. Then again, I'm thinking i'd rather have the money


Of course she won't give it back.

Tell her this if it will make you feel better:

A diamond symbolizes a rock that lasts forever. The diamond engagement ring was a promise between two people that our love would last forever.

You broke that promise.

Therefore by default the ring should be returned to me because you breached our agreement."

IMO I would just up the settlement. She is not worth the effort.

HM


----------



## lostLove77

Walk, don't think there are many mutual friends. I cut most of them out and think we're both blocked on each other's account. We haven't posted anything on FB or listed each other as friends. Don't know if I care or not if she finds out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LongWalk

She might care about the ring a little bit, but the money is probably more important.

In the end, as long as your wife doesn't have more children all her possessions will likely end up with your daughters in any case. As long as you have 50% custody and the property/pensions, etc are divided fairly, fighting over stuff is pretty meaningless.

Mazzy Star had hit about breaking up. Good song.


----------



## lostLove77

One of my favorite of theirs Walk. Not quite in that frame of mind anymore but it still resonates.

The ring wasn't about the money but the principal.



LongWalk said:


> Also, can you tell Moxy how being liberated feels?


Not sure I'm liberated but the weight I was carrying was huge.
People talk about just setting that weight down one day, i thought they were crazy but it's true. One day all that hand wringing is gone. It turns into regret but without the guilt or longing. 

However, i guess you could call it the backpain from carrying that weight or the history is still there. Any time i speak to her all the memories of what we were at one time still comes back. I still have feelings for this person but the trust and need for intimacy with her has left. 

Be sooo thankful there are no children. That's my biggest regret. These kids have to live through this. The first time i saw a picture they drew with only her in the picture.... heartbroken.


----------



## Honorbound

I finally read through your whole thread, LL. Your story is almost exactly like my first marriage. Like you, I tried and tried but was just used by a woman who thought of no one but herself. It took a long time to get to the "What the h*ll was I thinking?" stage and feel good about myself again. You are almost there and it's been enlightening to read about your journey. If you are like me, the only emotions you will have for her in the future are mild pity tinged with a bit of contempt. 

Just continue being the best man you can be for yourself and your children - it will continue to do wonders for your confidence and self-esteem... as has been pointed out, you can't pull her out of the slime if she doesn't want to go. I am glad you have shared your journey and wish you the best.


----------



## Chuck71

Really glad to see you are in a better place

the more you are seeing, the more you will wish to see

The ring...if you would want it back....wait until D is final

catch her in a desperate state of no cash and 'bring it up'

it means nothing to her, just cash, green paper

maybe you can give it to one of the girls as heirloom 

the engagement and wedding ring my X got were passdowns

I pity the person when I can prove it was done

it will give me peace of mind and a reduced sentence

as for Trampoline.... what ever the correct thing to do in her mind

expect the opposite..... she thinks she is in control manipulating

"let her think it"..... she has some harsh realities to face down the road

LL you are getting there! I am VERY glad you are

this one is for you

Rocky IV (4) - "No Easy Way Out" by Robert Tepper in High Definition (HD) **WOW** - YouTube


----------



## LongWalk

LL,
Your daughters have suffered a trauma. They are young and can bounce back, especially if you succeed in finding the right woman for the future. It is still early to say about SSC, but someone like her who has their head screwed on right will help them reconnect with trust and intimacy. 

Your daughters were exposed to the POSOM number one, the EA guy who frightened your wife for a period of time for a while. This may have confused them and reduced their sense of security. I don't remember if he is the same one as Bryan. But your daughters were picking up on her neediness. You vanished from the picture. Distressing indeed.

Your stbx's weekends, depending on whether she was enjoying a new transcient sex/love rush must have made her a manic mother.

Friday mom excited and nervous. Dad sad and vulnerable arrives. Emotional weekend with dad. Return to mom on Sunday she is either needy or love buzzed. Not a secure situation, especially when know mom is hurting dad. Whether or not they conscious picked up on the is hard to say. Unconsciously it was sandpaper on their feelings?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lostLove77

Walk, think you have some solid points but really trying to take a break from her and enjoying my new relationship. 

Hope you have been doing well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LongWalk

Good for you.


----------



## LongWalk

You deserve to enjoy life now after so many grim months.

We will be interested in getting an update on how you ex reacts when she realizes that plan B is gone.


----------



## happyman64

lostLove77 said:


> Walk, think you have some solid points but really trying to take a break from her and enjoying my new relationship.
> 
> Hope you have been doing well.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I do love when the shoe is on the other foot LL.

Enjoy the holidays.

It is a great time to make special moments with someone new and your girls as well.....

HM


----------



## LongWalk

How are you doing, LL?


----------



## LongWalk

Happy New Year, LL!

And the same to Chuck, HappyMan, Moxy, Conrad, et al


----------



## Chuck71

LongWalk said:


> Happy New Year, LL!
> 
> And the same to Chuck, HappyMan, Moxy, Conrad, et al


*HAPPY NEW YEAR*

LL
LW
HM
C-rad
Moxy
Group
Debby



my puppy from 4th grade
the cafeteria lady who gave us extra fries
Laura, girl I liked in 1st grade, showed how I felt by kicking her
Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Model from 1987
my 3rd personality who jumped bond in Connecticut


----------



## moxy

Happy New Year to you.


----------



## lostLove77

Happy new year all!

So much has been happening over the last few months I'm not really sure how to sum up. 

First, things with SSC have been going very well. We talk for hours and have great chemistry. I know I cannot be objective about my prior relationship but the way she speaks to me seems so different. Talking to her about situations that had happened I get such a different perspective and honestly makes me feel a lot better about myself.

She's been a bit guarded with her emotions. I believe she's a bit concerned about my relationship with my STBX. A bit before Christmas the STBX asked if I truly thought I understood what it would take to make her happy and if I would be open to going back to counseling to make sure divorce was the correct course of action. This honestly threw me off a bit. I told her I had to think about that.

I spoke to SSC about this. She looked at me and told me I should really consider this!!! I couldn't believe it. She said for the girls and all the history I really need to take a deep look. She truly amazes me, this alone endeared me to her so much I cannot express.

The more I thought about all this I realized I don't want to lose my connection with SSC. Also, the way the STBX presented everything was sort of like WHAT CAN I DO FOR HER! And the way she presented going to the counselor was that she wanted to make sure divorce is right. Not that this is a huge mistake, let's work on it!

Believe that tells me a lot. I may have thought about it if she expressed a desire to make things right by me. I know I felt that way, but if it's not returned there is no discussion.

Long post, hope everyone is doing well.


----------



## lostLove77

One a different note, Dating With Kids.

Anyone have experience with dating when both people have kids and time is limited? Seems like I have 2 very different worlds right now. Most of my time is with the girls and then every other weekend I get to see my SO. We are on the same weekend schedule so we're both kid less then. So all the time we spend together is pretty leisurely. This seems a little too easy, don't really get to know the person on a day to day basis.

We are trying to keep the kids out of it as long as possible to make sure this is something very serious. It's a very strange balance. 

Very interested to hear some others' perspectives.


----------



## Conrad

lostLove77 said:


> She's been a bit guarded with her emotions. I believe she's a bit concerned about my relationship with my STBX. A bit before Christmas the STBX asked if I truly thought I understood what it would take to make her happy and if I would be open to going back to counseling to make sure divorce was the correct course of action. This honestly threw me off a bit. I told her I had to think about that.
> 
> I spoke to SSC about this.


Do not do this.


----------



## Tron

lostLove77 said:


> Also, the way the STBX presented everything was sort of like WHAT CAN I DO FOR HER! And the way she presented going to the counselor was that she wanted to make sure divorce is right. Not that this is a huge mistake, let's work on it!
> 
> Believe that tells me a lot. I may have thought about it if she expressed a desire to make things right by me. I know I felt that way, but if it's not returned there is no discussion.


:smthumbup::smthumbup: 

Good job LL! Amazing to see the progress you've made in a year and how clearly you see things.

And yeah, it might have made you feel closer to SSC to discuss it with her, but if you are considering a long-term R with her, I would NOT discuss these things with her in the future. It is going to create doubts/worries and create unnecessary barriers. Just my $0.02.


HAPPY NEW YEAR!


----------



## happyman64

> I may have thought about it if she expressed a desire to make things right by me. I know I felt that way, but if it's not returned there is no discussion.


LL

Amazing what we see and hear from our wives when we listen.....

When we have too much time on our hands, not because we wanted that time........

I think the rose tinted glasses are off now LL. You see her for who she truly is.

ANd she sounds so selfish still. I call that the "WHAT ABOUT ME!" syndrome.

Sadly, i think your wife is going to have to lose you for good before she ever realizes what a good man she had.

She has tried a few guys and she still questions the divorce by asking if you now know what it takes to make her happy??????


Hand her the divorce papers and tell her she is going to learn what it takes for you to make yourself happy.

HM


----------



## GutPunch

I love happy endings.


----------



## Chuck71

Speechless...you now see what 'we all' saw back in the spring

when you speak to her do you get a nasty taste in your mouth?

It's your girls and you......Trampoline bounced away long time ago

It is tempting to think about "second time around will be better"

I made that mistake twice....but not a third time

My best friend / IC told me way back in December '12

"once she realizes she can not replace you, she will be back"

Sound familiar LL?

The only other thing you should tell SO about you and Trampoline's talks

is "I decided to decline her offer."


----------



## LongWalk

LL,

As long as you poured fuel into that emotional gas guzzler heart of hers she kept sort of promising to keep you on the list of dudes she might date. The good news is you are still on the list in 2014. And maybe you have moved up a few notches. The list is written pencil and is smudged with erasures and cross outs. There is an asterisk by your name (stbxh).

Now there is a new list: all the defects of LL and how they have be fixed. A one point she said she was broken. Why doesn't she ask you for a list of things she has to do to fix herself?

The only failures you ever confessed to us were, moving too much for the sake of your work and painting the bedrooms the wrong color. I'll bet there were some dry drops of urine by the toilet or something else that were deal breakers.

How did she start this conversation?

Even if she does not know about SSC, your ex has the spiderwoman tingling sense that another woman is closing in. Your need for WW's love has gone and she probably senses it. If she knew about SSC, she might be trying to sleep with you to motivate you to go into MC with her.

LL,

Thank you again sharing. Looking foward to Moxy's commentary.

By the way there is a new poster whose circumstances are very similar to yours. Split_and_melted is his name. Two little girls. Wife cheated but said nothing. Just asked him to move out so they could date.

Now she is on vacation with POSOM and emailed him to say that she wished it was him on vacation with her because she loves him (but is not in love with him). She wanted photos of the daughters because she missed them.

They are splitting custody but he fears she might seek sole custody so that she can move away to pursue her PhD.


----------



## Chuck71

LongWalk said:


> Even if she does not know about SSC, your ex has the spiderwoman tingling sense that another woman is closing in.


:rofl: :rofl:


----------



## Tron

LongWalk said:


> Even if she does not know about SSC, your ex has the spiderwoman tingling sense that another woman is closing in.


That is funny!

And sadly predictable.


----------



## LongWalk

SSC might have left some stuff over and the two daughters may have noticed it and said something:

"Mommy we saw your flip flops or sweater at Daddy's."

But I swear women can read men. I remember once talking with a girlfriend about some other woman, no one that she had ever met or would, just what I thought was a passing mention, and she immediately said, "you slept with her."

Women are also good at seeing other women moving in on a guy before the guy even notices.

But fact that LL has moved on was probably enough to get her thinking.


----------



## Chuck71

Trampoline knows he has

there is a distinct tone in a man's voice

when they reach the IDGAF stage

Window Cork knew......that's when she offered up

the weekend at her apt, all alone, no thug son around

spaghetti.....her homemade sauce

I passed

would have considered it if she would have offered

to attempt climbing through a few windows :rofl:

nah.....still wouldn't. new gal had better lasagnia


----------



## LongWalk

Agree. I think RG's stbx is still shocked that he moved on. She had no idea how he wavered.

SSC sounds like a much more rational person. Of course rationality is not everything, but strong sexy rationality, that is attractive.


----------



## Chuck71

QL is out of options, can't even reach Group through D5

using the child IS the last resort

snatch is next to last

I can't wait until D5 is old enough to 

"decide where SHE wants to be"


----------



## Tron

Chuck71 said:


> QL is out of options, can't even reach Group through D5
> 
> using the child IS the last resort
> 
> snatch is next to last
> 
> I can't wait until D5 is old enough to
> 
> "decide where SHE wants to be"


Another puff of greasy smoke billowing over New York.


----------



## LongWalk

LL,

This comes from Ing's thread.



> "I suppose that in all honesty I have painted things on this thread as excellent and wonderful and I do that because in many ways it is.
> I have to work hard to maintain peace though since their Mother is constantly telling my youngest that we are getting back together.
> 
> Leave. have your life as a single woman with a part time Fbuddy. Leave. Don't care about me, the kids, the family.
> 
> But don't come back
> 
> In my heart I know that my kids want their Mother back, that they want the "family" and they want to be "normal".
> 
> I suffer from guilt about denying that to them.
> 
> Despite all the awful things she has done on some level
> 
> I will always love her.
> I am not going to deny nor apologise for this. We grew up together. We had children together, for most of my life she was important and valued.
> I care what happens to her, for me, and the kids.
> I don't want her to have an awful life. She is a broken person without me moderating her life, her words and her actions.
> I no longer want the job though.
> I no longer want to feel responsible for her.
> I no longer love her enough to do that.
> 
> As time goes by my heart softens to her and others and
> I feel more stable and secure. That is not related to my ExW but she sees that, and wants a part of it.
> I am not the same man she left. Probably more like the man she married all those years ago who she found attractive. So she wants him back.
> 
> I am that man despite her actions not because of them. Re-forged in a crucible of pain she deliberately and callously inflicted on me.
> I think of the words and actions over the first year and cringe inwardly. I hear her telling me of her "sexual awakening" with the OM when I think gently of her. I see her dead eyes and cold responses as I begged her to stop for the children.
> There is the reason it can never happen.
> 
> I am being selfish.
> I am putting my needs before the long term needs of the children.
> I am the one who is the selfish one.
> I see this almost as a third party.
> I look at myself and shake my head.
> I can see that it is just another round of guilt shedding be her. This does not stop me feeling that guilt though.
> 
> I look above at the 23 "I's" in this post so far and know that I am being selfish and there is a single "we" and know that my life is separate now."


He may be speaking for you, too. 

When your WW talk about R if you could meet her needs, it made me wonder what you will reply to her. To be honest I don't think you should bother explaining your decision if you turn her down. However, if it did require going on the record, could it be something like Ing's?

They idea that you should not change agains to meet her needs after all that you have been through is absurb. Could you simply cancel out all the positive changes you made to survive, simply to blend in with needy emotional landscape of her failed single woman adventure?

If you turn her down, will she be as persistant as Ing's ex?


----------



## Conrad

LongWalk said:


> If you turn her down, will she be as persistant as Ing's ex?


No


----------



## LongWalk

How do figure, Conrad? Must one consider the blend of BPD and NPD traits?

What impact does the strength and sincerely of the original romantic bonding play?

Why did LL's wife seemingly affair down and into superficial relationships? Is this all a function of poor self esteem?

My ex has had a couple post D LTRs. They have not satisfied her or lasted. It is always good for me if she is happy with someone because it made her easier to get along with.


----------



## Conrad

LongWalk said:


> How do figure, Conrad? Must one consider the blend of BPD and NPD traits?
> 
> What impact does the strength and sincerely of the original romantic bonding play?
> 
> Why did LL's wife seemingly affair down and into superficial relationships? Is this all a function of poor self esteem?
> 
> My ex has had a couple post D LTRs. They have not satisfied her or lasted. It is always good for me if she is happy with someone because it made her easier to get along with.


LL's wife is incapable of sticking with anything.


----------



## Chuck71

LongWalk said:


> How do figure, Conrad? Must one consider the blend of BPD and NPD traits?
> 
> What impact does the strength and sincerely of the original romantic bonding play?
> 
> Why did LL's wife seemingly affair down and into superficial relationships? Is this all a function of poor self esteem?
> 
> My ex has had a couple post D LTRs. They have not satisfied her or lasted. It is always good for me if she is happy with someone because it made her easier to get along with.


LLs ex is aptly named (well my nickname) Trampoline for a reason


----------



## Chuck71

LW.....I was quite skeptical of the West Coast BSer

the wife from "the billionaires" and the hubby

a product of Jefferson Darcy from Married w/Children

the playing in a band is what had me thinking

to an almost exact thread from last spring

the most despicable part is, we all gave of our time

for what......a "lessthanman" to enjoy attention.... sad

there are people on TAM in real situations

who need real help

if someone thinks it is a poser, stir the nest

their colors will show

sorry for threadjack LL


----------



## LongWalk

There are threads that are unreal. 

Do you remember looking at micro organisms under a microscope in 6th grade. Those tiny one celled animals were sometimes out or focus or moving. You took turns with your lab mates looking and comparing with the photos in the text book. It was hard to figure out everything but that was interesting.

While I was in high school my father got me jobs with the clinical labs prepping urine for drugs sample and getting pap smears ready for the cytology tech (Ursula, she was sexy and very unapproachable). Ursula did show me various cancer and pre cancerous cells in her book. It was thick. What kind of cell was what was not always easy to make out.

She wrote her opinions on the slides that were abnormal and left them for pathologist to review. She did not think of them as patients or women: she was very business like. The slides were purple. I don't know how long they save them. Perhaps is all digital. TAM is very digital. 

But you, LL, Conrad, Moxy, ReGroup, etc will never be digital zombies, even if the only time we really meet is staring out of airplane window into the clouds.


----------



## lostLove77

It is a real shame that people that offer very heartfelt support are but strangers.

Think I need to ask Conrad to look away on this one.

My stomach is a freaking wrecking ball the past few days. Spending time with my SO this weekend and while out with some friends on saturday I get a text from STBX asking if I had thought about our discussion about going to see a counselor.

I looked at the phone and my whole body language just changed. She said she saw me strongly shake me head. SO wanted to know what it was but wouldn't ask directly about it (we can read each other very well). To be honest I'm not even sure how she was told about the context, I don't remember doing it. 

That evening she was distant, I waited a bit to see if she would address her concerns with me. Nothing, so I asked her what was up. Again she spoke that I should consider putting my family back together, and she thought she should step back so that she wasn't clouding my judgement about my next steps. 

I spoke to her that i did not want that and how being away from the situation for a bit has led me to see things in a new light and that I believe STBX is thinking of herself first as she always has. 

Anyway, i never responded to the text that evening but I got another Sunday morning saying that she understood if I didn't want to go and we're simply on different timelines. I didn't like the use of timeline here. I don't think it's a timeline issue when you decide to leave someone. However, I really don't think this should be done through text so I said I'd rather speak to her. Tonight is my daughters science fair so I said we could speak after the girls go to bed.

I need some support here, I want to tell her that this is too late and the things that have been done have broken this for me. But my deep fear of having a split family are so strong it's making me very upset thinking about the finality of this.

I am falling deeply in love with SO yet our time together is so limited and complicated. Her kids are entrenched in a district and hour away and there is no chance of that changing.

Rambling, but have been really upset over the past few days and that scares the hell out of me as well. Shouldn't this be so clear and easy at this point???!!


----------



## Conrad

lostLove77 said:


> It is a real shame that people that offer very heartfelt support are but strangers.
> 
> Think I need to ask Conrad to look away on this one.
> 
> My stomach is a freaking wrecking ball the past few days. Spending time with my SO this weekend and while out with some friends on saturday I get a text from STBX asking if I had thought about our discussion about going to see a counselor.
> 
> I looked at the phone and my whole body language just changed. She said she saw me strongly shake me head. SO wanted to know what it was but wouldn't ask directly about it (we can read each other very well). To be honest I'm not even sure how she was told about the context, I don't remember doing it.
> 
> That evening she was distant, I waited a bit to see if she would address her concerns with me. Nothing, so I asked her what was up. Again she spoke that I should consider putting my family back together, and she thought she should step back so that she wasn't clouding my judgement about my next steps.
> 
> I spoke to her that i did not want that and how being away from the situation for a bit has led me to see things in a new light and that I believe STBX is thinking of herself first as she always has.
> 
> Anyway, i never responded to the text that evening but I got another Sunday morning saying that she understood if I didn't want to go and we're simply on different timelines. I didn't like the use of timeline here. I don't think it's a timeline issue when you decide to leave someone. However, I really don't think this should be done through text so I said I'd rather speak to her. Tonight is my daughters science fair so I said we could speak after the girls go to bed.
> 
> I need some support here, I want to tell her that this is too late and the things that have been done have broken this for me. But my deep fear of having a split family are so strong it's making me very upset thinking about the finality of this.
> 
> I am falling deeply in love with SO yet our time together is so limited and complicated. Her kids are entrenched in a district and hour away and there is no chance of that changing.
> 
> Rambling, but have been really upset over the past few days and that scares the hell out of me as well. Shouldn't this be so clear and easy at this point???!!


Lost,

What are your pos tendencies in relationships?


----------



## lostLove77

Been a rug sweeper and a fixer.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

lostLove77 said:


> Been a rug sweeper and a fixer.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Trying to prove anything?


----------



## Conrad

As I read your post, I sensed fear.


----------



## lostLove77

Self worth.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

lostLove77 said:


> Self worth.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You do realize that women value honesty in relationships, but it MUST be genuine, or they'll figure out you are phony.

Go deep and observe these emotions.

Fear of a broken family.

Fear of "missing out" on your STBX's "recovery"

I see her dangling a ball of string in front of you trying to distract you from your current love interest.

When someone wants to be with you, it's not something you can miss.

I speak from experience.

It will often involve the woman in question - literally - throwing herself at you.

I take it that hasn't happened?

She wants - yet another - "discussion" that involves you expressing you want her back and she gets to decide.

Isn't that what this is?


----------



## lostLove77

Been more honest than I ever have. But the fear parts about a broken family are the strongest as well as an unknown lifestyle at this point, I suppose.

Not sure i fear missing on her recovery. It's been a weird process. I still love this woman but in a completely different way now.

Not sure about her approach. The past couple times we've spoke about the girls she mentioned that she's been thinking a lot about me and it's nice to speak to me etc... She wants to make a nice meal tonight before the science fair, so the signs are there and I see them more clearly than I ever would have. 

This doesn't change my mind but makes things a lot harder.


----------



## Conrad

lostLove77 said:


> Been more honest than I ever have. But the fear parts about a broken family are the strongest as well as an unknown lifestyle at this point, I suppose.
> 
> Not sure i fear missing on her recovery. It's been a weird process. I still love this woman but in a completely different way now.
> 
> Not sure about her approach. The past couple times we've spoke about the girls she mentioned that she's been thinking a lot about me and it's nice to speak to me etc... She wants to make a nice meal tonight before the science fair, so the signs are there and I see them more clearly than I ever would have.
> 
> This doesn't change my mind but makes things a lot harder.


Signs of what?

Has she thrown herself at you?


----------



## GutPunch

All she wants to know is this.....Did my doormat really leave? 

Hmmm.....Let's play nice and see if I can make him dance. 

Don't take the bait.


----------



## tom67

GutPunch said:


> All she wants to know is this.....Did my doormat really leave?
> 
> Hmmm.....Let's play nice and see if I can make him dance.
> 
> Don't take the bait.


Exactly:iagree::iagree:


----------



## happyman64

LL

The key is being honest.

The key is realizing you have "worth".

The key is telling your Ex that you see her for what she truly is and that you are looking for a better woman.

And if you really want to see if her draw drops to the floor you should tell her you would rather focus on your new relationship that on the one your wife wiped her ass with......

Tell her this. Not to hurt her but to let her know you have grown as a person and you see her for who she truly is.

Be honest LL.

Let her know she is on your timeline now.

HM


----------



## LongWalk

LL consider all the hope that you put into the week by the ocean. The parents-in-law babysat while you tried to bring back good memories and rediscover the spark. She would not have sexual intercourse with you, although she had slept with 4 or 5 guys you identified. There may have been more. Well, you know she is not into pity sex.

So, as Conrad asks, why doesn't she throw herself at you if she is rediscovering her love for you. Is what she misses is the ego charge of having you pining after her almost no matter how she trampled your heart.

Does your wife love you? At some level I am sure she does, just as you love her in some profound way. You have given each other the best that you have. Is that love enough now for R?

Problems you face in reconciliation with your stbx:

1) Is she able and willing to be happy? Seems like she will blame you if she is not and yet you don't have a magic wand to make her life more exciting. I imagine she doesn't like her job that much and resents the principal or others who are some how responsible for her vague discontent.

This aspect of her character requires therapy or something.

2) You will not succeed in reconcilation if you are getting bossed around by her. In the past she accused you of deciding too much. You have blamed yourself for that. However, when she started deciding things she started liking the casino, drink and male attention. Moreover, she bought a house on her own. And ditched you, leaving you responsibility for selling the other house. Her decision making is scary.

In a serious discussion about your relationship perhaps you can ask her how she sees healthy sound agreement coming about in daily life and in big decisions. It seems that she wants even more power, through the authority of a sympathetic therapist. WTF? She already was calling all the shots.

3) Mind movies
After having been tormented by all the guys she has been dangling in front of your face. Don't forget that she even discussed her dating life with you as if you were supposed to tell her how to make POSOM 4 or 5 be more interested her instead of the POSOM who drove her to the tire repair place. How are you going to enjoy reconcilation when the thoughts of POSOM1-5 pop up?

4) New SO
If you leave your new SO for your stbx, are you going regret it? How will it feel to be having a conflict with your stbx in R and feel that it is the same shxt all over again and then remember with SO it was always easier.

5) Economic consequences
The aftermath of your stbx's walk away has cost you both a lot of money. Will you feel resentment paying more to reunite and clean up the damage? Some people might not care. Some would.

......

Having dinner with her... well your SO will be wondering like crazy what comes down.

Even if you decide you want to R, do not hop in the sack with your stbx just because she is now open to the idea. That will only reinforce the idea that her bad decisions can be easily fixed when clearly that is impossible.

Chuck,

The climber thread is gone. You were right; he was probably a man with a beard who sits under a bridge.

Moxy? What's your take?


----------



## moxy

Lost. You are a familiar place. She wants to visit there because you are, for her, some kind of stability. You don't want to destroy a home. She doesn't know if she wants that home, but she knows she doesn't want that door closed to her. 

She cheated on you. She left you to pursue her cheating. She refused to connect with you when you tried to make things work. She told you she didn't want a home with you and made her home with someone else (a few times). For what reason, other than your hopes, should you give her a chance? I'm not asking you to stay away out of spite, but to ask yourself what kind of a relationship you might be walking back to. Will it actually offer you what you crave? Or do you just wish that it would? 

I'm in a weird place, emotionally, myself; but what I mean to say is...what do YOU want out of life? Consider that, rather than just...what's currently available in front of you.


----------



## LongWalk

Who could put it better than Moxy?

Only you can decide what to do LL, but if I were you, I would want to hear her say she was truly sorry for what she had done, for the thoughtless pain she put you through, and to promise that she would never do it again. Of course, words alone would not be enough. She would have to be genuine.


----------



## Chuck71

LL everyone has given you best advice possible

Trampoline knows you are exiting her world, what does she do?

offer it up on silver platter....next to last resort

SHE is now being left behind, as YOU were

now she knows how bad you felt, she does not like it

LL.....you are heading in the right direction

my X tried something as this....I walked away from it

the hurt and anger fell from the roof of uncertainty

do you want to relive the last year or....see what this year holds with new SO


----------



## Chuck71

the timing of this and new thing w/SO.....ironic isn't it?


----------



## Conrad

When Lost goes quiet.... reminds me of Script


----------



## Chuck71

that's not a reassuring comment, with ADR


----------



## lostLove77

Didn't mean to drop off the earth. Got really tied up at work. 

The other evening went well. There were no pleas, she reiterated that she wanted to speak to a counselor to be sure it couldn't be fixed. She would t express a desire and need to put it back together. Pretty much left it that right now we're in a good spot. Communicate very well about the girls and are very civil with each other. 

Just really odd. I still have such deep feelings for her but those feelings have shifted. Still hard imagining her with someone else or someone else being in my girls' lives. 

Thank you all, the support helps a lot. 

On the positive side, got a little ski trip planned with the SO up to the Finger Lakes next weekend. Really looking forward to that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

Talk to us about the trampoline.

Say very little to your SO about her.


----------



## ICLH

Don't blow it with your SO. Those 1-5 dudes - deal-breaker.


----------



## Chuck71

and that's the five he knows of


----------



## Conrad

Chuck71 said:


> and that's the five he knows of


----------



## ICLH

Chuck71 said:


> and that's the five he knows of


Who's said it here on TAM? "A shoulder to cry on turns into a d$ck to ride on." 

Yikes.


----------



## Chuck71

don't feel bad LL

here is mine

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/500x/27252213.jpg


----------



## LongWalk

Chuck,

Is that the picture you took down?

A pretty face on real fatty.

All bodies become ugly in the end.



> The other evening went well. There were no pleas, she reiterated that she wanted to speak to a counselor to be sure it couldn't be fixed. She would t express a desire and need to put it back together. Pretty much left it that right now we're in a good spot. Communicate very well about the girls and are very civil with each other.
> 
> Just really odd. I still have such deep feelings for her but those feelings have shifted. Still hard imagining her with someone else or someone else being in my girls' lives.


I didn't know the term co-dependent before I got on to TAM. It is a really inadequate to describe the melting together of people. Not just men and women, but even colleagues. Managers and subordinates.

Your stbx is very in tune with you. You are very close to each other. That is part of the reason that she lost her attraction for you. She knew what you were thinking. She didn't have to seduce you or win you; you were there for her. You may have pushed through a few decisions that offended her. But really you are not at all a domineering jerk.

She has never been a loud canine female but has let her ovaries take charge of her decision making. That has confused her. The desire for a counselor to offer an objective opinion about your chances of reconciliation is a remarkable offer. It implies two disquieting things:

1) She does not know if she can reunite her sexual passion with her affection for you as a person and the security you have offered. The way you hung on made you heroic but not attractive.

Do you remember when you were 13 or 14 that you could do something really amazing to impress the girl you had a crush on ? You could hardly talk to her and wished your could beat up the school bully... Spiderman, I would have liked to have been him.

If you could some how defeat or humiliate the POSOM that she most desired, that might make her desire you again. Sounds dumb but I think women want to see males lock horns and fight until there is a victor. Our lives just aren't that direct anymore. You have to be working class guy not afraid to fight. Gone are the days that gentlemen duelled over affairs.

2) Your ex said she was broken. All those guys, all those hope of a new LTR versus the excitment of dating, she never managed to balance that and now she now longer knows how to be faithful. She is still looking for you to make her feel good about herself, so that she can chase other men. She will never be happy.

The happier your new SO makes you, the more she will feel your strength. The more she will latch on to you for a period until the futility becomes apparent.


----------



## Conrad

LongWalk said:


> Chuck,
> 
> Is that the picture you took down?
> 
> A pretty face on real fatty.
> 
> All bodies become ugly in the end.


Walk,

I can testify.

Window Cork is better than that.


----------



## moxy

LongWalk said:


> All bodies become ugly in the end.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your stbx is very in tune with you. You are very close to each other. That is part of the reason that she lost her attraction for you. She knew what you were thinking. She didn't have to seduce you or win you; you were there for her. You may have pushed through a few decisions that offended her. But really you are not at all a domineering jerk.
> 
> The desire for a counselor to offer an objective opinion about your chances of reconciliation is a remarkable offer. It implies two disquieting things:
> 
> 1) She does not know if she can reunite her sexual passion with her affection for you as a person and the security you have offered. The way you hung on made you heroic but not attractive.
> 
> If you could some how defeat or humiliate the POSOM that she most desired, that might make her desire you again. Sounds dumb but I think women want to see males lock horns and fight until there is a victor. Our lives just aren't that direct anymore. You have to be working class guy not afraid to fight. Gone are the days that gentlemen duelled over affairs.
> 
> 2) Your ex said she was broken. All those guys, all those hope of a new LTR versus the excitment of dating, she never managed to balance that and now she now longer knows how to be faithful. She is still looking for you to make her feel good about herself, so that she can chase other men. She will never be happy.
> 
> The happier your new SO makes you, the more she will feel your strength. The more she will latch on to you for a period until the futility becomes apparent.


These things seem so, so true. And, very well articulated.

Intimacy and familiarity have always been a dangerous duality that people have sought to balance. 

The objective opinion? Yes; she wishes she could reconnect her her affection and her passion, but she doesn't believe she can -- whether that has to do with you defeating the other man or her defeating her own demons is uncertain.

Lost, you can't be her savior; you can only be your own. You can be her friend. You need love in your life, too. Why throw away a new SO over something unlikely to be resolved anytime soon? Put your ex in the "friend zone" (or frenemy zone) and focus your romantic attention on someone who doesn't need you to do the rescuing and who won't resent you for being willing to try.


----------



## LongWalk

Moxy is right IMO.

Now that LL has gotten over oneitus, others can do it, too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lostLove77

I can't seem to get emotional stability.

STB is reaching out again. She's been talking about how she believes she had an emotional breakdown. Without getting into a lot of details she brought up the counselor again and said she wants to go because she thinks we can be happy together.

I asked her a few questions and she sounded remorseful save for dating while we were separated. She said she had every right to do it. Well, guess I can't argue but she seems to be ignoring what kind of damage that wreaked upon me. 

Anyway, I'm pretty upset that I've been thinking this through and can't muster a "hell no". I keep thinking of the girls, how much I liked this person before things started to fall apart and how difficult it is seeing someone while separated with children. I know logistics should have no influence how I feel for someone. I adore my SO but can only see her every other weekend. We've been speaking about slowly introducing children to each other. However, she'll never be able to leave her town or me, mine. I'm looking way to far down the line... I'm over complicating things but can't help it!


----------



## Conrad

lostLove77 said:


> I can't seem get emotional stability.
> 
> STB is reaching out again. She's been talking about how she believes she had an emotional breakdown. Without getting into a lot of details she brought up the counselor again and said she wants to go because she thinks we can be happy together.
> 
> I asked her a few questions and she sounded remorseful save for dating while we were separated. She said she had every right to do it. Well, guess I can't argue but she seems to be ignoring what kind of damage that wreaked upon me.
> 
> Anyway, I'm pretty upset that I've been thinking this through and can't muster a "hell no". I keep thinking of the girls, how much I liked this person before things started to fall apart and how difficult it is seeing someone while separated with children. I know logistics should have no influence how I feel for someone. I adore my SO but can only see her every other weekend. We've been speaking about slowly introducing children to each other. However, she'll never be able to leave her town or me, mine. I'm looking way to far down the line... I'm over complicating things but can't help it!


Steady.....

This is likely dog-bone syndrome.

I would stay @50k and agree to the sessions. Continue to date your girlfriend and observe stbx in session.

Be forthright and honest about what happened and how you felt.

Observe her reactions to it.

My guess is she goes defensive and starts blameshifting.

That will be all you need to know to put this to rest.

And, it may involve physically removing yourself from a session in progress.

Practice "I'm not ok with..X" about a million times before you go in there.

Share your observations here.


----------



## Tron

Emotional breakdown, huh? Excuses. 

What is she actually DOING to figure her $hit out? Because it still sounds like a lot of talk and no accountability.

Has she tried to seduce you? 

Is she chasing you...hard?

Has she given you a crying, snot-blowing apology? 

Promised never to do it again?

All of these things she would need to do just to get you to listen. Things don't seem to be turning out the way she thought and you still sound like her Plan B.


----------



## Tron

Did she ever just go to IC for herself?


----------



## lostLove77

Tron, she is in IC. I think it was big for her. She's been mentioning her work on her relationships with her parents, so called friends (eliminating them) and work.

She seems to be doing some hard work. She actually said she wasn't pushing hard because she didn't want to hurt me further and understands if I'm not interested. She did give a bit of a tear filled apology about the emotional affair during our marriage and apologized for not coming to me instead of reaching out to other people for her needs.

AAAHHH! 

Conrad, I think I would feel like i'm betraying SO if I went to counseling. Seems like I have a yes or no decision here. Maybe the sessions would help me cement that... I don't want to lead on SO at all!


----------



## Conrad

Here's the thing... SO is already somewhat resigned to the fact that she may be a rebound thing. She's offered to step aside many times already as you've been talking too much.

Clearly, you need to resolve this for you.

BUT.... there is NO EARTHLY WAY you agree to not see other people just because stbx "may" have some unresolved issue(s).

IF stbx says she wanted you and only you - along with the snot blowing apology for what a pathetic cretin she's been over the past two years - THEN you may consider opening your mouth about what you've got going, and possibly ending it.

BUT, SHE HAS NOT ASKED... even for another chance.

My gut says this won't take long.

But, you're lack of a "hell no" means you need to do it - for you.

You aren't betraying anyone by talking and attempting to get right with yourself.


----------



## LongWalk

LL,

You are in a so much happier spot now. You can choose instead of being merely rejected.

If you have 50/50 custody, you could still live with Strong & Sexy for days at a time in her town after a gradual intro to her children. That would be 50% cohabitation. In the summers your could mix even more, including your girls. So logistics is not the decider here.

You might be happy again with your WW. However, she did have an emotional breakdown as you described it to us. The time when she was hysterical and warned you that Baldy might contact you to complain about her cheating. She said she might need to give up the the smart phone. All of this suggests her life was way out of control and you are not even sharing the new horror stories.

It took ages before you described the casino. That was painful enough.

I think your wife is a nice person, but her behavior towards you has been pathologically co-dependent:

1) Is she capable of thinking about you and not just herself?

2) Did she say that she learned anything profound about herself?

3) About you?

4) What does she want out of marriage?

If she is just looking for a place to lick her wounds, is that attractive to you?

5) All the humiliation she heaped on you. That was a real attack on your masculinity.

You only got your nuts back once you got rid of the house and met S&S. Your wife sensed that. She realized that you were done. Suddenly she wants to cut to the front of the line.

S&S told you to listen. She has the self confidence to compete with your WW. Ask your WW if she wants to compete with other women? Immediately she will say who?

6) Do you even want to have a physical relationship with your wife? Do you even want to kiss her anymore?

Have you told S&S?

MC for co-parenting might be a good thing. MC for reconciliation?

Maybe your dream is to go into her house and sit down to a meal with your girls, put them to bed and get in the sack with your wife. If so, it is there for the taking. All you have to do is click your heels together three times and you'll be back in Kansas.

Also, she did not just have an emotional affair. Your gut was screaming at you because she had at the very least made out with OM before she left you.


----------



## lostLove77

Conrad said:


> But, you're lack of a "hell no" means you need to do it - for you.
> 
> You aren't betraying anyone by talking and attempting to get right with yourself.


Walk, don't think for a second I don't ask myself those questions. But it boils down to what Conrad wrote. I want to be able to make a statement and be able to stand on it, jump up and down on it.


----------



## lostLove77

Walk, interestingly enough the physical attraction has really cooled. I'm not pining to be back in Kansas. So why is this so damn hard?!


----------



## Tron

LW spelled out exactly what I had in mind when I asked you about IC:



LongWalk said:


> 1) Is she capable of thinking about you and not just herself?
> 
> 2) Did she say that she learned anything profound about herself?
> 
> 3) About you?
> 
> 4) What does she want out of marriage?


All, great questions for her to answer whether it is in MC or not. Frankly, if "emotional breakdown" is her answer, that just isn't good enough IMO. She is going to have to dig much deeper.

She had at least an EA while you were married and living together and left you long before either of you filed for D. She is a CHEATER no matter how you slice it and no matter what excuses or justifications she has. 

What does the thought of a physical relationship with your wife do to you?


----------



## lostLove77

I'm sort of numb when it comes to thinking about a physical relationship with her. We had a good one but that burning desire is there at all anymore.

The more i think about our conversation earlier today the more I am pulling out little nuggets that were purely about her.

She's been doing A LOT of tutoring to make ends meet and I know she's getting cash. So I brought this up and said that she has unreported income that would affect the child support agreement. Her first response is that she's paying back her parents etc.... Nothing about how her new income would make me less liable and bring down what I have to pay. She didn't seemed too concerned about my finances. She asked if i was working whenever I didn't have the kids. It was a dig.

Yet I still get upset thinking about her moving on with someone in a serious relationship. Have to work through that.


----------



## LongWalk

Of course, your passion has cooled. She not only denied you sex she teased you. You got to make out with her a couple if times when she was already testing new partners.

You've been with S&S and that has sated you physically and emotionally.

If you do go to MC, why not ask her if having sex with so many men has turned her off to sex. Why would sex with you ever be magical or satisfying again?

If she says she certain she you will set the night on fire and can grin, great. But just to mess around like in the summer house, that would be a massive let down. 

And as you say testing the waters with WW will cast a chill shadow over what you have with S&S.

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


----------



## Chuck71

you are a man, so am I

we both have nads

show it

this may be the closing entry but remember

I gave one lifeline

take or burn

she burned

I walked away knowing I tried

you have too, more than I would have

Conrad said it best......

repeat yesterdays or new tomorrows


----------



## LongWalk

Chuck,

Would you say the truncated week by the Atlantic was the last chance at R?

Nobody following LL's thread thought it was going to work. 

Never say never, though. True remorse is an absolute must. Conrad doesn't believe she can do it. She is not the sort to fake it. She is too honest. LL will know if she will risk her heart for him.

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


----------



## Conrad

LongWalk said:


> Chuck,
> 
> Would you say the truncated week by the Atlantic was the last chance at R?
> 
> Nobody following LL's thread thought it was going to work.
> 
> Never say never, though. True remorse is an absolute must. Conrad doesn't believe she can do it. She is not the sort to fake it. She is too honest. LL will know if she will risk her heart for him.
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


But, he clearly has to observe her reaction "in the moment" to know.

Hence, my suggestion.


----------



## Tron

LL,

You have struggled with this in the past, can you go and just observe without putting yourself further at risk? 

Will you able to recognize 'in the moment' where she is at? 

Can you get the shovel and bury this marriage for good if you don't hear what you need to hear?


----------



## LongWalk

A question you might ask: she says she did not cheat because you were separated. But for you, it felt like she was cheating. Whether she considers herself formally in the clear, emotionally you will never feel that way. 

A reconciliation based on two emotionally different realities, can it work?

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


----------



## Chuck71

LW-I see LL as now desperately seeking a reason to

hold on to any hope of a R with her

unlike in the spring, where he searched with fervor to

grasp at a reason to not leave her 

many guys think life can not go on without 

"the woman they pledge their love to"

they soon realize, it does go on

many acknowledge they were miserable

own up to their part in the carnage

and promote self improvements

her nick, Trampoline, was due to fact

it was a different guy every month

and flaunted it in his face

some men could become emotionally invested in

a woman as this again, I could not

when I went through 1st love break up in '91

pop told me, "when it's over it does not matter if 

she sells or gives it away on a street corner, it's 

over and done with"

truncated......haven't seen that word since reading

'ol Clive Staple Lewis... to this day I think my grad classes were too 

expensive but intro'ing me to Abolition of Man

changed how I viewed everything


----------



## LongWalk

I must read it. Never made it to grad school.

Someone on TAM wrote that when a woman starts to allow her emotional and sexual attraction to other men to escape into her consciousness, she expects her husband to notice. When he fails she begins to feel contempt for him. 

Once the affairs fail she feels contempt for herself. Now she wants LL to hose the slime off and restore her. At the same time she does not want to strip her conscience naked before him. Ultimately, LL cannot cleanse her. She has to do it herself.

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


----------



## Chuck71

AoM is a short read... I was not turned on to it until grad

school.... which says a lot about my third rate undergrad school

UT-Chattanooga. The book is a digest.... you will not truly

understand it until a couple years after you read it. Reason it 

is used in my lectures for undergrad students.

I view a M somewhat akin to the Army

If I am the general and she is the co-general

it will not run efficiently if I do not trust the co's actions


----------



## lostLove77

LongWalk said:


> A reconciliation based on two emotionally different realities, can it work?


This is pretty core. No, I don't think it can. But that's my head speaking.

I'm scared to death of this becoming permanent change. It's starting to get very real. I never fully left that grip of my old life and wanting it. It's a hard drug to put down.

Even things with SO are starting to scare the hell out of me. Not because I don't think it's a good relationship but because it's a clear line that's being drawn.


----------



## Conrad

lostLove77 said:


> This is pretty core. No, I don't think it can. But that's my head speaking.
> 
> I'm scared to death of this becoming permanent change. It's starting to get very real. I never fully left that grip of my old life and wanting it. It's a hard drug to put down.
> 
> Even things with SO are starting to scare the hell out of me. Not because I don't think it's a good relationship but because it's a clear line that's being drawn.


Tell us about it.


----------



## lostLove77

I think it's simply fear of the unknown. I know my X. I know the many good qualities and just starting to understand the destructive qualities. But, I know how we interact with the kids, the fun we've had and all the old experiences.

Going into a new direction is a total unknown. SO seems to be getting really comfortable and is happy. In the upcoming weekend I'll probably be meeting her older (13) son at a dinner with her parents. She would not do this if I told her I was uncomfortable. 

I'm not uncomfortable meeting her family but at the same time I do find this to be a bit of commitment. I don't want to slink away after meeting them and just be a transient figure. This kids has been through enough with his father (moved right into another home with children after the split, lied about things etc...).

Just working through things piece by piece and the weight of it is starting to become clearer and clearer. Or maybe i'm just throwing on the stones myself.


----------



## Conrad

lostLove77 said:


> I think it's simply fear of the unknown. I know my X. I know the many good qualities and just starting to understand the destructive qualities. But, I know how we interact with the kids, the fun we've had and all the old experiences.
> 
> Going into a new direction is a total unknown. SO seems to be getting really comfortable and is happy. In the upcoming weekend I'll probably be meeting her older (13) son at a dinner with her parents. She would not do this if I told her I was uncomfortable.
> 
> I'm not uncomfortable meeting her family but at the same time I do find this to be a bit of commitment. I don't want to slink away after meeting them and just be a transient figure. This kids has been through enough with his father (moved right into another home with children after the split, lied about things etc...).
> 
> Just working through things piece by piece and the weight of it is starting to become clearer and clearer. Or maybe i'm just throwing on the stones myself.


Lost,

You know what you "don't want" to be.

What do you WANT to be?

The real risk is lowering your personal boundaries to please as a codependent, then feeling trapped.

If you're not ok with something, tell her.

Be honest.


----------



## LongWalk

LL, 

Hope you are happy that you have this challenge - a choice between two different partners and two different family constellations.

Ask your exWW what she is offering. Does she know herself? She said she was "broken". Is she fixed? How did she do it? If her life is good, why does she need you?

If it is less than ideal, what does she expect of you?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chuck71

who really likes change? but who wants things to stay the same 

forever? If you have followed my posts, I had four dark moments in 

my life. Every time I walked the dark road of change.... it led to

discovery, change, and a brighter tomorrow. A year ago, even after

my first three, I was still scared about change....scared but 

accepting. Sometimes I feel guilty for coming out of my D

is such great shape.....are you, LL, feeling a tad guilty you

are enjoying yourself....without her?


----------



## LongWalk

LL,

What's up?

Thanks again for introducing me to Mazzy Star. Awesome band.


----------



## moxy

Lost, how ya been? Your thread's gone quiet.


----------



## lostLove77

Hi everyone. Sorry for the absence. Mox, hope things are stabilizing a bit for you. Walk, you are always there. It's amazing.

Things had been going pretty smoothly. Been very happy with my new SO and the relationship with my EX have been very pleasant. She's actually been very sweet and easy to deal with. Honestly, she's seems more like herself than i've seen in a long time.



Chuck71 said:


> Sometimes I feel guilty for coming out of my D in such great shape.....are you, LL, feeling a tad guilty you
> 
> are enjoying yourself....without her?


However, there were definite feelings of guilt. Guilt of enjoying myself with SO when the kids were away, guilt that I had given up working on my relationship with my EX and not putting the family back together as one...

So, last week my EX gets in a very bad car accident. T-Boned. She ends up alright (broken Pelvis, but will heal) but i rushed down to the hospital, took care of her a bit and drove her back home. Helped her out here and there.

Not sure but seems to have confused me a bit. She had called me from the car right after she got hit. I'm still her go to person.

I've been really confused and sad, mad and/or disappointed I can't see the path before me. I can't seem to not look over my shoulder and check guilt at the door. 

If i'm honest with myself I still have feelings for this person but I'm not sure what they are. I'm trying like hell to pour through and identify them but my lens is very blurry right now. 

I know I also have deep feelings for my SO but I can't seem to shake this baggage.


----------



## LongWalk

Car accident. Horrible. Whose fault was it?

When her tire was flat she want Baldy to help her, even though their sexual relationship might have been over at that point. Now she is not calling him. And with sex impossible for a least a few weeks, depending on how bad it is, he probably wouldn't have come when she called. She didn't call any toxic girlfriends either.

Prediction: The more she leans on you now for support, the quicker your feelings for her will morph into she is mother of my kids and no longer my lover. The less she leans on you, the more you will feel guilty. Your respect will also grow for her, but respect for her character, will that rekindle love and attraction?

Is she asking to put the divorce on hold now?


----------



## lostLove77

I'm unsure if she cut someone off making a left at a stop sign or if the person was speeding... Doesn't look good for her anyway.

She's spoken to cutting everything off and rebooting her life. She had been getting harassed. Interestingly enough she has said she isn't looking for anything now and doubts she'll find as good as a person as me and she's not interested in anything less. It's flattering but I remember getting emotionally gutted as a terrible husband. Yet it still pulls at me.

She hasn't asked to put it on hold but I know she wants to work on things between us. She said it's ok if that's months from now, she wants to give me space. 

Sometimes it seems I can go to 10,000 ft and say that irreparable harm has been done and she lost her chance with me. But I'm not sure the binds have been totally cut for me. I'm only making it hard on myself but I haven't been able to ignore those emotions.


----------



## LongWalk

There was post on TAM the other day about a study of the regrets of men and women about their sex lives. Men regretted not having scored more and had had more kinky adventures. Women had the opposite feelings. They wished they had not lost their virginity under the circumstances that it happened. They wished they had had fewer partners.

This is all in line with evolutionary pyschology. Male gametes are cheap and plentiful (sperm from the same male even compete with each other). Each female gamete is a big investment.

Women move on from the established mate to seek new partners for the sake of genetic variation. Some men their 30s and 40s are for sure more predatory because they no longer hold women is esteem, especially if they feel that they are a booty call. They are not planning to settle down with promiscuous women because does not represent a good investment of their resources.

So if the "harassment" she speaks of is unwelcome sexual advances from her partners during this period of exploration, it is not a surprizingly development.

I remember in college there were a bunch of guys who identified one woman as easy. They had no respect for her as she became the booty call girlfriend who got passed around. They told me that I could sleep with her, too. I remember meeting her in the undergrad library one night. She had sad eyes. Later, I thought, should have but probably she was a dysfunctional person with a lot of baggage.

LL, for all of your WW's mistakes – if that is what they should be called – it is impressive that she is not just asking you to move home again. That shows that she has some capacity to empathize. Perhaps it is returning now that the fog of being chased by different men for sex has lifted. The horrible disappointment is that it isn't so easy to unite sexual lust and emotional passion once we reach a certain point in life. The intensity of a crush in junior high school, I remember it, but it is unlikely these events happen when our blood is not overflowing with hormones.

How could we successfully raise our children if all of the madness of love exploded 5 or 6 times a year at the age 37. Your WW must be depleted by her experience. Perhaps that is why she could not simply invite you back to her bed. She is exhausted. Perhaps poor concentration was the cause of her car accident?

LL, your wife seems to be torn between sharing the stories of her misadventures with all of these guys and keeping it secret. Although WS are known for trickle truth, there is also a desire to tell because they want to get it off their chests. But then there is a problem: does the BH want to become the best girlfriend for these confessions?

Southsideirish had a very difficult time getting his WW back. But after many months he reported that instead of pining for her OM as she had for so long, she called him Voldemort. To save his marriage the POSOM had refused to see her anymore. He served as a judge in a town on the edge of Chicago and I think she waited in the courthouse parking lot to try and speak with him. What a humiliation, to realize you were giving all that warm pvyssy and bursting heart to a character from Harry Potter.


----------



## happyman64

LL

There is nothing wrong with caring for your wife.

The is nothing wrong with still having those feelings for her.

Because if you had not shown up at the hospital to care for her you would not have been Lost Love now would you???

Take the time to sort out your feelings. You owe it to yourself to know what you truly want as well as who you want.

Let us know how your kids are doing.

HM


----------



## Conrad

LongWalk said:


> There was post on TAM the other day about a study of the regrets of men and women about their sex lives. Men regretted not having scored more and had had more kinky adventures. Women had the opposite feelings. They wished they had not lost their virginity under the circumstances that it happened. They wished they had had fewer partners.
> 
> This is all in line with evolutionary pyschology. Male gametes are cheap and plentiful (sperm from the same male even compete with each other). Each female gamete is a big investment.
> 
> Women move on from the established mate to seek new partners for the sake of genetic variation. Some men their 30s and 40s are for sure more predatory because they no longer hold women is esteem, especially if they feel that they are a booty call. They are not planning to settle down with promiscuous women because does not represent a good investment of their resources.
> 
> So if the "harassment" she speaks of is unwelcome sexual advances from her partners during this period of exploration, it is not a surprizingly development.
> 
> I remember in college there were a bunch of guys who identified one woman as easy. They had no respect for her as she became the booty call girlfriend who got passed around. They told me that I could sleep with her, too. I remember meeting her in the undergrad library one night. She had sad eyes. Later, I thought, should have but probably she was a dysfunctional person with a lot of baggage.
> 
> LL, for all of your WW's mistakes – if that is what they should be called – it is impressive that she is not just asking you to move home again. That shows that she has some capacity to empathize. Perhaps it is returning now that the fog of being chased by different men for sex has lifted. The horrible disappointment is that it isn't so easy to unite sexual lust and emotional passion once we reach a certain point in life. The intensity of a crush in junior high school, I remember it, but it is unlikely these events happen when our blood is not overflowing with hormones.
> 
> How could we successfully raise our children if all of the madness of love exploded 5 or 6 times a year at the age 37. Your WW must be depleted by her experience. Perhaps that is why she could not simply invite you back to her bed. She is exhausted. Perhaps poor concentration was the cause of her car accident?
> 
> LL, your wife seems to be torn between sharing the stories of her misadventures with all of these guys and keeping it secret. Although WS are known for trickle truth, there is also a desire to tell because they want to get it off their chests. But then there is a problem: does the BH want to become the best girlfriend for these confessions?
> 
> Southsideirish had a very difficult time getting his WW back. But after many months he reported that instead of pining for her OM as she had for so long, she called him Voldemort. To save his marriage the POSOM had refused to see her anymore. He served as a judge in a town on the edge of Chicago and I think she waited in the courthouse parking lot to try and speak with him. What a humiliation, to realize you were giving all that warm pvyssy and bursting heart to a character from Harry Potter.


Did Irish ever screw up enough courage to expose and blast that SOB out of the water?


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## tom67

Conrad said:


> Did Irish ever screw up enough courage to expose and blast that SOB out of the water?


I remember she wanted to stop the d when she found out he was dating.
I said she better get ic for the child abuse or you are wasting your time.
Haven't talked to him for a while.
He told me who the pos was.


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## LongWalk

Tom, that's interesting. Was an elected or appointed judge? Southsideirish refused to trash the guy on Cheaterville or with the local media. It could have destroyed the guy's career. I can understand that people have an aversion to putting their private lives in the spotlight.

UK Chris has got over million hits on Cheaterville for his POSOM, who was so desperate that he paid money to Google to reduce the search engine hits. Didn't know Google worked like that, haha. He divorced his wife but they still live together. He is not certain that he can stick it out. He is doing it for his children. He likes his home. His wife now has sex with him at least twice a week. He noted that he was in bad mood so she gave him a bj. 

The POSOM was a big black guy. He even joked about it. The mind movies are not tormenting him so much. But the unhealthiness of the relationship in R. Tough to deal with. But who's to say that over time with hard work they won't end up with a good relationship. The trauma is terrible.


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## Chuck71

of course she would call you

you're the only familiarity

posoms come n go


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## Tron

Conrad said:


> Did Irish ever screw up enough courage to expose and blast that SOB out of the water?


I think Irish was a bit concerned about future problems that the local Chicago political machine could cause for him. He exposed to friends, family and the OMW. Didn't do Cheaterville. 

POSOM totally threw her under the bus and the limited exposure got him his WW back...begrudgingly...she was a real beatch for a while there.

LL, you'll work your way through those feelings. What is your lawyer telling you about the big D? When is it going to be final?


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## lostLove77

happyman64 said:


> Take the time to sort out your feelings. You owe it to yourself to know what you truly want as well as who you want.
> 
> Let us know how your kids are doing.
> 
> HM


Happy, i agree. Have to take the time and find a therapist. SO is starting to really open up and get close. She's been guarded for a while but she's been much more affectionate. 

Feels like I've been stuck in this cross-roads a while and I don't like it.

BTW, the girls are doing great. Just took the oldest skiing and she had a great time. That's been a huge blessing through all this. EX and I are very amicable with the girls and care for them deeply. Those girls are loved.


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## Chuck71

lostLove77 said:


> Happy, i agree. Have to take the time and find a therapist. SO is starting to really open up and get close. She's been guarded for a while but she's been much more affectionate.
> 
> Feels like I've been stuck in this cross-roads a while and I don't like it.
> 
> BTW, the girls are doing great. Just took the oldest skiing and she had a great time. That's been a huge blessing through all this. EX and I are very amicable with the girls and care for them deeply. Those girls are loved.


would you feel less guilty or less at a crossroads

is you and the X were bickering?

Have you ever felt strongly for two women at one time?


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## lostLove77

Probably would Chuck. Guess it's pretty obvious I never been in situation of having feelings for two women before.

Going to do research tonight for a therapist.


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## Chuck71

"if" this SO suddenly said she wanted to call it off

how similar / different would you view your X?


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## lostLove77

Honestly been asking this question of myself a lot. Even SO said things might be different between my EX if she wasn't around.

I think I have to say I'd be very tempted to start working on it with the EX. There is a of damage there, the betrayal, wondering how long it would be till the it happened again... Truly conflicted on that part but the lure of a whole family is strong.


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## Chuck71

as I just told Unbe, it is so easy to fall back to familiarity 

walking into the unknown, is frightening

in a way, either way you go, you will lose something

focused, 50k, observe, when it's time to decide

your gut will tell you


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## Tron

lostLove77 said:


> Honestly been asking this question of myself a lot. Even SO said things might be different between my EX if she wasn't around.
> 
> I think I have to say I'd be very tempted to start working on it with the EX. There is a of damage there, the betrayal, wondering how long it would be till the it happened again... Truly conflicted on that part but the lure of a whole family is strong.


Hi LL,

Has trampoline actually intimated or said that she definitely wants you back? Offered sex? Asked you to move in with her?

Or has it been under the guise of her wanting to 'work' on things together?


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## LongWalk

Tron,
I think she has said she understands that LL needs time and space. He never mentioned any overtures.

LL,

Your WW's recognition that R will be difficult speaks positively about her judgment. If she were BPD, she would be attempting to manipulate you more. Her patience indicates some personal growth.

Is asking you for a lot of help now?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

LL,

Over the space of about year your wife dated several men. She wanted to have fun but she also hoped for an LTR SO. In the end, she failed to find someone with whom she could have sex that would lead to the mutual respect and deeper attraction. At last she gave up, defeated. She was not desirable as a long term partner.

How does this color your feelings towards her? If she was not good enough for any of those guys, is she now less desirable in your eyes as a result?

This has been real blow to her ego. Now you are in a difficult position, if you give her a hand and lift her up again to say that she is still desired by a worthy man, you her husband, can you restore her self-esteem? She has to do this herself, according to TAM philosophy, which says that individuals have be responsible for themselves and not fix their partners.

Do you think that her desire to give you space is also recognition that she needs to further repair herself to even be fit to date you again?

Is is fair to say that when she tried to date you by the ocean she was beginning to make an effort to reconcile but lacked the period of being alone that would have gotten her back to being herself, to being your wife?

MattMatt, one vet poster, once noted that that his wife told him she was going to have an affair and that once it was over she was going to return to him.

My father never gave any sympathy to me or my brothers when we got hurt as children. He always said that if you got hurt, you had done to yourself, i.e., injuries for him were always self inflicted. If there is any truth in this, have you found yourself thinking about the timing of your wife's car accident?

I don't mean that she was trying to crash, but is she so fundamentally depressed about her life that she is despondent?

To what degree is she carrying you into this depressed mood, just as you are feeling better?


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## LongWalk

Hi LL,

Rooting for you whatever you have decided. Hope you daughters are well.


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## lostLove77

LongWalk said:


> LL,
> 
> Do you think that her desire to give you space is also recognition that she needs to further repair herself to even be fit to date you again?
> 
> Is is fair to say that when she tried to date you by the ocean she was beginning to make an effort to reconcile but lacked the period of being alone that would have gotten her back to being herself, to being your wife?
> 
> MattMatt, one vet poster, once noted that that his wife told him she was going to have an affair and that once it was over she was going to return to him.
> 
> My father never gave any sympathy to me or my brothers when we got hurt as children. He always said that if you got hurt, you had done to yourself, i.e., injuries for him were always self inflicted. If there is any truth in this, have you found yourself thinking about the timing of your wife's car accident?
> 
> I don't mean that she was trying to crash, but is she so fundamentally depressed about her life that she is despondent?
> 
> To what degree is she carrying you into this depressed mood, just as you are feeling better?


Hey LW! How are you doing??? How's your girl?

Your dad sounds like one huge learning experience to unravel. Interesting take on injury. Very limiting in the point of view but still interesting to think about.


Not sure things have changed much. WW is still very interested in getting back together but I have been furthering my relationship with my SO. However, I have to say I was very attracted to my WW recently. I did not act on anything but it was disconcerting. Feels like a betrayal to SO.

Sometimes I think i was happier when she didn't want to get back together. I didn't have a choice, the option to try to repair my family wasn't there. It wasn't a question if I could trust her and her emotional state again.

It's been a slow process and I'm not a patient guy! HA


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## lostLove77

I have to give a lot of credit to my early supporters here. Folks like Conrad, Chuck, Gut, Frost and Tron. They were adamant about this whole thing not being about me but something she was going through. I fought that notion for a very long time. 

Just the other day I got a text from her saying she really made a mistake and was messed up for a while. 

Anyway, thank you all for trying to beat these lessons into my head.


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## LongWalk

By the time she examined the consequences of casual sex and her value system, she realized she was very messed and disappointed. Your faithfulness started to look better and once you got together with SO, your well being was on your face. Your WW knows you. She senses that your masculinity was no longer destroyed. This means something to us, that someone knows us while most of the world cares not whether we live or die.

The reason you felt desire for her is because she is sending out a vibe that she wants to be f'd by you. If you examine your memory of her posture, smile, etc., you'll recognize that attitude from happier days when she was horny. Now her desire for you is palpable and from the selfish gene point of view existential. You represent the best protection for your daughters and children asking to be born.

In fact, if you asked her if she wanted more children, an immediate and unhesitating "yes" from her would be a signal of her commitment.

Could you trust her? A better question is are you prepared to be the leader in a relationship with a person like her, you would have to keep her entertained. The danger would be if she sank into depression and you had to bear her. That is one of your fears, isn't it, that you will have to hold her together even in divorce? HappyMan or Conrad would say she's not your problem. But life is not that simple.

If she becomes emotionally dependent on you, although you are no longer couple, and there are divorced people like this, it will make it difficult for her to meet some sort of good guy, someone whom you wouldn't mind as step dad. 

Probably SO seems more together to you and giving her up would be a mistake as far as you can reason.

One really difficult obstacle now with your WW is the timeline. She has dumped all sorts information about her love life on you. She would probably prefer to bury it all now, and at the same time reconcilation means you accept damage. What exactly happened in her life and what scars and wounds is she trying to return in a reconcilation? This is an eternal TAM debate. Some people just say, I know enough, I don't want to dig anymore.

Moxy will have something interesting to say. Let's hope her Oneitis is also over.

My eldest daughter has to fill out college applications soon. She is wait listed at two schools in the UK. She is struggling with this dilemma of where to study and how much debt to take on.


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## happyman64

lostLove77 said:


> I have to give a lot of credit to my early supporters here. Folks like Conrad, Chuck, Gut, Frost and Tron. They were adamant about this whole thing not being about me but something she was going through. I fought that notion for a very long time.
> 
> Just the other day I got a text from her saying she really made a mistake and was messed up for a while.
> 
> Anyway, thank you all for trying to beat these lessons into my head.


I just have to ask LL.

Did you text her back and ask "And you are not messed up anymore?"

I know you are enjoying the time with your GF but I am sure your WW is feeling you move on.

I will make one suggestion to you.

If you and your wife decide to have a serious conversation do not do it over texting.

Talk face to face and make sure she can look you in the eyes when she discusses her choices that she made with respect to you, her and your family.

Maybe she realizes what she has lost.

The key you have to find out is if she is willing to work to get it back???

And if you are willing to give up your current relationship and take the risk in reconciliation???

It takes two my friend.

Good Luck and glad to see you walking with your eyes open.

HM


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## Tron

lostLove77 said:


> Just the other day I got a text from her saying she really made a mistake and was messed up for a while.


Has she spent some time in IC trying to figure out why?


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## Tron

happyman64 said:


> If you and your wife decide to have a serious conversation do not do it over texting.
> 
> Talk face to face and make sure she can look you in the eyes when she discusses her choices that she made with respect to you, her and your family.
> 
> Maybe she realizes what she has lost.
> 
> The key you have to find out is if she is willing to work to get it back???


This!

Sounds like a bit of realization.

But where is the introspection? 

Why is she different now?

Was it just an itch she had to scratch? 

What void was she trying to fill?


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## LongWalk

Tron said:


> This!
> 
> Sounds like a bit of realization.
> 
> But where is the introspection?
> 
> Why is she different now?
> 
> Was it just an itch she had to scratch?
> 
> What void was she trying to fill?


Mach would say this is just part of biological cycle. The husband becomes beta and the desire for new genes expresses itself as falling out of love and feelling sexual attraction for other men. Everyone is attracted to persons other than their partners. It takes discipline and learned morality to resist.

If a person is has deeper issues BPD, CSA, then the challenge is huge. Some people grow up with parents who didn't have healthy marriages and they don't know what good relationships are like. That model was not there.

LL's wife has never been a like ReGroups or CeeGee's.

....

LL, 

If you take HappyMan's advice and sit down and talk, at what point will you mention SO? Or maybe you will choose not to if she doesn't ask.

HappyMan would not suggest this conversation if he thought LL's wife was seriously dysfunctional.

GutPunch would probably have grave misgivings.


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## happyman64

I do not think LL's wife is dysfunctional. LW is correct.

I do think she suffers from low self esteem and very poor boundaries.

And she has a lot of hard work to do IMO.

But in addition to hard work the flip side is if LL is willing to listen to her, work with her and put his current relationship on hold.

Like I said it takes two.

And LL would have to make a "leap of faith" judgement call if he feels his WW is truly remorseful, being honest with him as well as herself and has any value as a life partner in his eyes/mind.

So decisions have to be made by both.

If he even decides to have that open, honest conversation with his wife.

HM


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## Chuck71

LL everything we told you, you would have realized, but later

I posted a month ago about you having to make this choice

you are unintentionally wanting to drag Trampoline through

the same mess she did you. maybe you thought doing so,

would make the choice easier to return to Trampoline.

You have found out, that is not the case. You are more tied

to SO than Trampoline and are not keen on making either wait.

You know my stories about my 1st and 2nd love...yes they

were not a wife but meant the world to me, only difference was

courthouse wasn't notified. "Either way he decides to choose,

in the end, Mike felt he was to lose" Mike is the main character

in one of my books....and he is sitting right at the point you are.

And where I did, I got back together with my first two loves

and it never was the same. I never looked back with Window Cork

and never regretted it. IF your little girls would adapt to D and get

along with SO, would that change your decision any? 

I would be more than happy to post the conversation Mike had here

from the book, if you would wish for me to.


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## LongWalk

Who would bet that LL's wife

1) knows nothing of SO's existence;
2) has a gut feeling that another woman has come into the picture;
3) actually knows about SO

LL,

Do you plan to be up front with SO if you decide to discuss R with your wife?

What are you going to do about the divorce process?


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## LongWalk

Hope you're having a good weekend.


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## LongWalk

Hope things are going well.


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## DailyGrind

Just found this thread. No update?


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## LongWalk

Send him a PM. He might come back.


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## happyman64

I think LostLove is hanging out with Her Husband......


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## LongWalk

Her Husband? An unwise reconciliation?

I am not sure of that, but I got one PM from him but I can't share it unless he agrees.

LL is very like Dof2, or perhaps I should say the dynamic of their relationships is similar.


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## lostLove77

Hi everyone, hope all are well. I have to catch up a bit. I got pretty busy with my new relationship, kids, 2 moves (finally into a steady home again) & work issues. 

Just a basic update, divorce was finalized July 2 and I have a solid relationship with the girls and 50% custody. The ex is engaged already. Although I practically am as well. Most of what Conrad and others said about the process is true. I've found my ex very annoying and not wanting any contact with her, tho our interaction concerning the girls has been very cordial. 

I cannot believe the sh1t storm that i went through. Looking back is very odd. Almost like it didn't happen, as though it was a nightmare, although my bank statements very much reflect it.

Been building on a great relationship and don't think i've ever spoken so much with a woman before. We talk about practically everything. I am not known as someone who speaks much. 

We've been in the process of blending families and it's gone very well. She has two sons a bit older than the girls. It's been a great fit. Each of our parents feel like our own already.

The added complication of having split custody brings some interesting logistical issues (like her and I living 50min apart) but working through all that the best we can.

I'll be trying to catch up with everyone that helped me so much in the past. Bless you all.


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## Chuck71

Conrad, Moxy, LW, HM64, Tron...... they all told you what would happen. Weird isn't it?

Look forward to your new adventure. Please post much more often!


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## happyman64

Good for you Lost.

Keep up the open, honest communication.

Everything else will fall into place if you let it.

It looks like you learned from the past.

Congrats.

HM


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## LongWalk

Never forget her flat tire. She called POSOM1 to fix it. Even he was confused. He had sex with her and she wanted him to take care of her car problems while she was searching for the KiSA to replace you both.

She kept you hanging on so that you could shoulder the blame. Unhealthy codependence.

She will only stop annoying you when she gets her head screwed on right. There is no guarantee it will ever happen.

Do you think her new guy is good for your daughters?

It was nice to hear from you again. Chuck, I and others still come round but Conrad was kicked out of TAM. Moxy would be glad to hear from you. She still comes round.

My eldest daughter is in university. The youngest is in her final year of high school. My dad died. Life rolls on. HappyMan is still giving out good advice.


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## Chuck71

Her nickname was Trampoline for a reason....


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## LongWalk

If you go to Surviving Infidelities Wayward Forum, you can read about people who lose themselves in sex. It is not a crime. It is human. The problem is that acting like a teenager in heat when you have children is costly to them as their family implodes. Sure, if a spouse doesn't measure up, divorce them. But only if there is substance. Sexual incompatibility is a legitimate complaint but it is foolish to think that hooking up with people outside of marriage will fix your marital sex life. And yet this line of reasoning has many proponents.

And women attach emotion to sex, so cheating destroys love fast. That website promoting affairs sells the idea that discrete cheating can be okay.

All over the world now the ****** ******* fallout is supplying MC with new customers. I thinking the website Surviving Infidelity has crashed.


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## Chuck71

That is a great example...... too many people do today and not think about tomorrow....

Buy a home.... get that high.... decorate it... throw parties.... month later mortgage comes due. Hello.... reality.

Run up credit cards..... 0% APR for six months..... six months later they owe $700 month. Hello..... reality.

Pop always said.... you will receive consequences for every thing you do, good when you do good, bad........

1988 .... I'm going to a party, knew most of the guys / gals who were going. I just had to be the 16 y/o

Billy BadA$$..... I drank more than I should, flirted with the girls, had it going on that night..... until

1AM.... my head was over the toilet. Hangover from he!! next morning. Pop learned what happened.... grounded and

a comment, "Bet them girls didn't think you were hot schit with that head it the schitter"

Pizzed me off but..... he was exactly right


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