# To D or not to D?



## snap

Hello everyone,

I've been mostly lurking here for a few months but haven't come out with my story. I'm not very sharing about family issues normally, and it pains me to write this, but I do need some outside perspective. This is going to be long-ish, so bear with me.

We are in our early 30s, married for 10 years, have a son. We are expats to Northern Europe, I have a good job and my wife is getting through her degree here. We own an apartment.

It started in late spring, when she became "just friends" with a neighbor. The story was they chat once in a while to improve her language skills. It was kinda sketchy, but I always had my trust in her, and didn't cut it right away.

With time though, I found that while she seemed to text him fairly often, she never kept the messages on the phone. She started logging off facebook after every use, something that haven't happened before.

In mid-September, I went over my inner hurdle that prevented me from going snooping. I'm a computer engineer, I make those damn things, so am terrifyingly efficient at that. Within days, I had a facebook conversation on record where they were planning a date. Her last message was "can't wait to feel you inside me again". (Clearly the language skills did improve a lot)

It blew up. She cried, saying it was just sexting and she never crossed *that* line, that the affair wasn't physical. I was extremely skeptical of that: they live next door, text each other about sex nearly daily, and no actual sex has occurred? But as many here know, you can convince yourself to a lot of things, no matter how loud your gut screams.

Three days have passed, I've been trying to absorb it and convince myself. I was at work and had FB chat with her, in which she professed her love and guilt to me. Three minutes after that, she went into conversation with OM and moved their date to next weekend.

I came home and started to pack up, not saying a word. She started to shake, begging me to tell what happened, then just collapsed around my feet. Lots of tears again, she said she has an addiction to him but she will overcome it. She confessed they had sex twice. One of them was on my birthday (obviously I was the one who had to abstain that day, her headache, you know).

The next few days were kinda in a blur for me. I couldn't able to function at work at all. It was time to get my local driver's license issued here, but I was all shaking and failed the test. I started to chain-smoke after few years of abstinence, harder than ever. She tried to be perfect, doing whatever I wanted, blocking OM off facebook, showing me all his communication attempts, giving me all access to everything. I started to move on from that, she begged me to try and live through this. Am not sure where I found strength for that, but was doing my movements, trying not to grill her for what happened and keeping my emotions to myself.

Fast forward to the end of October, the Halloween weekend. Me and the boy are carving Jack'o'Lantern, she is off to drop some stuff to her female friend. Comes back saying the weather is wonderful, that it's worth taking the kid for a walk out while she skypes her mom about her planned visit. 

On a whim, listening to some faint squelch in my gut, I agree. But leave the voice recorder on on my music player. 

I listen to the record Monday morning at work. What I hear is plain incredible. Apparently her mother cracked she was having an affair, and they were both in full defense mode. I learned she was ****ing OM not a hundred meters away while we were carving the pumpkin with kid. That she got to her friend just in time when I called her to buy tea lights. Told some in-jokes they have together, how someone rang the door when they were doing it and they panicked and had to wrap it up. How they have sex now with him more often than ever. Discussed a bit how handsome the other guy is, and how she would quit me in an instant but knows he's not up to anything serious. Her mother suggested maybe taking him out to restaurant to get beyond ****buddies, but wife dismissed that as unlikely.

Oh yes, a fair bit of the conversation was devoted to me. How I annoy her now that I try to work it out even more than when we are arguing. How am responsible for pretty much every single problem of hers. That I always had it easy and it is my turn to suffer. About what a loser I am for failing that driving test. The only positive thing said was that she doesn't want to unleash it on me because she doesn't want me falling into full blown depression.

Also, that she has applied for a dorm (she is entitled as a student).

I'm normally reserved and can control myself. I've been into fights before where my face was left big bloody mess with unrecognizable features for weeks, and could joke about it. But that day I collapsed crying in the company bathroom.

Later, I called the old broom (no offense to MILs here, I never said a bad word about her before the incident) and said it's best if she doesn't visit. I messaged the wife saying it's over. She came over, I gave her it to listen. Obviously, lots of wailing again, but I was unmoved. Her story now is that she was always very close to her mother, that she lied to her about continuing affair and about me annoying her. That nothing really happened. Strangely, I didn't find any communication between her and the OM, no telecom logs, no fb communication, no messaging, nothing. But I still wanted divorce. She said it's up to me, if I can't work on it, but she would really appreciate if I will do.

I haven't even really decided to give it another try, more like to wait and see. Wife lost her sleep, ten pounds of weight (and she was skinny to begin with), struggled with her studies, but still was all accommodating to me.

I let her mother come over to help with kid while she studies for the exams. The first day I learned that her dorm application is still active and she is reserving it "just in case". The MIL attacked me verbally with all-my-fault line, but it was really bad timing for her. I told her to shut the [email protected]$k up, and this was pretty much the only thing I ever told her during her stay so far.

I informed my wife that am convinced we won't work it out and have to very much D. She is still clinging on, saying we can overcome that, but I am extremely exhausted and have no strength nor desire to do anything.

I know from reading other threads here that some people tolerated much more than this and still went through with R, and others went straight to the court for much lesser offense. I'm open to all of your input and I really, really need some judgement on this situation from the outside.


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## Sindo

Of course there's no fb, messaging or telecommunications. Your wife knows from experience that you can access those easily. She never stopped seeing him, she just stopped anything that could leave an electronic trace.


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## Halien

Really, after all the ways she has lied and made light of your reconciliation attempts behind your back, who exactly are you considering reconciling with? Is it this front that you see, or the real person when you are away? My opinion - she needs you. Big difference between that and wanting you.


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## lisa3girls

I am so sorry... she is disrespecting you right in your face. I would file.... I know I did, how can we trust them and how can this disrespect us this much?


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## Almostrecovered

you can't have R with someone who can't even tell you the truth


you heard her, she disrespects you in every way, shape and form- it's obvious she is merely hanging onto you for plan B as she knows that her f-buddy is using her for the sex alone

your main priority is to start looking into custody laws regarding your situation, do you want to stay in the country you are in or move back home? (where is your native country btw, is it the US?)


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## snap

Thanks for your replies, you very much say out loud what I have on my mind.

I have zero trust in her. I think she just hangs around until she gets a place to move out. She says it's not so, but her words are not very convincing to me. I refuse to set me up for backstabbing again.

The OM is not the issue anymore, I called him, he got scared ****less and tried to deny everything. He said she claimed we were legally separated, and he didn't truly know our martial status "but they were just friends anyway". He is a career Marine here and am just a nerd, but he seemed really afraid of the possibility of any physical confrontation with me.


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## Almostrecovered

well if she moves to a dorm I would assume that would mean you get full custody


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## Soccerfan73

Your wife is corrupt and she comes from a corrupt family. I wouldn't trust a single thing she says from this point forward. 

Take care of yourself and go to a lawyer about custory of your children.


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## snap

Almostrecovered, moving out here does not affect custody, and dorms have some blocks reserved for students with children. Custody laws and practice in general are not gender discriminating here; 50/50 or 60/40 splits are common arrangements. Either way the divorce/custody will have to go through authorities from our country of origin (another place in Europe).


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## Bartimaus

Soccerfan73 said:


> Your wife is corrupt and she comes from a corrupt family. I wouldn't trust a single thing she says from this point forward.
> 
> Take care of yourself and go to a lawyer about custory of your children.


:iagree:


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## Halien

I'm very sorry for the pain you are going through. Sadly, when you deal with someone with floating loyalites like this, signalling the end of the relationship can show you their worst side. Just don't be surprised if her 'desire to fix things' attitude becomes a thing of the past the moment that she realizes that it is over. But on the flipside, if you take the drastic 180 approach, and she continues to show remorse, you might see real hope, too.


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## Shaggy

You've done all you can. Multiple confrontations, agreements to work on it. She won't stop cheating.

Time to stop wasting time on her and her string of lies. 

The birthday trip of having sex with him, but none for you really put the nail the coffin to me.

Just how fast can you purge her from your life ?


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## snap

Shaggy, purging might take a while. I genuinely loved her. I don't know though if I still do. I just don't feel anything, feel numb.

Halien, that's a perspective I never considered though, thank you for bringing it up. Am not sure if she'll turn nasty on me, so far it didn't happen and I've been extremely serious about D. I told am considering to file once the xmas time is over. She asked what is the chance of us working it out, I said "3 out of 100" (just wanted to be disturbingly exact here).

She knows am serious, I see she is stressed, weary eyes, insomnia and panic attacks. Still trying to always be around me, but as I said I doubt the nature of her stress. I doubt it is remorse.

Soccerfan, the funny thing, I never, ever, in these 10 years said anything bad about her or her relatives to anyone, and believe me there were many moments when I was really pissed off. I was the one always apologizing, yet somehow was perceived as hell's spawn by her family. Not going to tolerate any of this s4it anymore.

Thank you everyone for your feedback. You, essentially strangers on the Net, are the only people who are not hostile to me and know about my situation. I really felt encircled.


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## aug

Unless you're that type of a person also, you cant be in love with a cheater, a liar, someone with incredibly low standard of ethics.

The other man (OM) is a career Marine. Report him to his commander. This you must do.

Do not let your mother-in-law into your house. She's incredibly evil. And she's teaching/taught her daughter to be evil. Let's hope the dark side does not overcome your son -- you should be the counter influence.

You'll need to let her go. Read the 180 also. Note that the 180 is for your mental health and not to win her back.

You're currently going through stages of grief . Realize that your current emotions are all over. Try to detach.

You're still young. Why spend the rest of your life with an evil person?


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## bryanp

You can't be serious of ever considering to recover with her. She continues to screw the OM right under your nose and put your health at risk for STD's. She screws the OM on your birthday. She screws the OM while you are taking your child trick or treating and bad mouths you on top of that. You judge a person by their actions and not by their words and her actions speak volumes. She continues to play you for a fool. She has no respect for you whatsoever. If you do not respect yourself then who will?

This is the ultimate in humiliation and disrespect toward you. She sees you as a doormat. She lies right to your face and continues to keep screwing her lover. Please get tested for STD's immediately. Please contact an attorney at once to understand your options. She has played you for a fool and she will be absolutely right if you stay with her. Enough is enough!


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## bryanp

One more thing. You need to ask yourself why you would love a woman who clearly takes such glee and joy in disrespecting, humiliating you and degrading your marriage and putting your health at risk for STD's. What is wrong with this picture? You would have to be a masochist to stay married with a person like this.


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## snap

Harsh folks, but I appreciate it; perhaps I really need a slap or two to come to my senses.

aug, I don't see the point reporting the OM to his commander. I wanted to let his wife know, but the dude appears to be divorced. I'm not into it for revenge and it wasn't him who cheated on me.


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## snap

bryanp said:


> One more thing. You need to ask yourself why you would love a woman who clearly takes such glee and joy in disrespecting, humiliating you and degrading your marriage and putting your health at risk for STD's. What is wrong with this picture? You would have to be a masochist to stay married with a person like this.


It wasn't always like that. I remember her loving and caring, and she aways was (and still is) a great mother. She barely made it out of ER alive after the childbirth, so she treasures the boy.

But I see your point. We had our ups and downs in the marriage, but looking back I fail to see what could I have done to deserve this.


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## Halien

snap said:


> Harsh folks, but I appreciate it; perhaps I really need a slap or two to come to my senses.
> 
> aug, I don't see the point reporting the OM to his commander. I wanted to let his wife know, but the dude appears to be divorced. I'm not into it for revenge and it wasn't him who cheated on me.


Snap,
One of my employees is a fairly high ranking officer in the Reserves (just got back from Iraq). According to him the military still takes this very seriously, but primarily in the respect that it puts their personnel at risk in other countries. There has been an incredible rise in servicemen who have been cheated on while away, and the friend said his unit was getting these every day, so it is a matter of morale and unit integrity.


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## Shaggy

Ask her to tell you how you could possibly know that she isn't still cheating? Put the burden on her.

This is a woman who without remorse popped next door to have sex while you were carving pumpkins with your son.

This is a woman who denied you sex on your birthday so she could have it with her lover. (At least she didn't give you sloppy seconds).

At this point, from her actions and her words to family - she seems to only be using you as a meal ticket. Her tears are out of fear not remorse.

You might ask for a polygraph test to see who deep this has been and if there have been others.

But considering you've caught her and given her chance after chance and she keeps running back to him - how could anyone trust her? What could she possibly do to prove herself? Wear a chastity belt?

btw - don't let the guy off easy. He knew it was wrong, he knew you had a family, and he still took what was yours.


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## snap

Well he's a coward (even in the record wife voiced that he's kinda cowardy), I doubt he's good at what he does anyway. This is not the U.S. military we speak of though, a NATO country but not sure what regulations are. Nor do I care really.


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## Almostrecovered

snap said:


> Harsh folks, but I appreciate it; perhaps I really need a slap or two to come to my senses.
> 
> aug, I don't see the point reporting the OM to his commander. I wanted to let his wife know, but the dude appears to be divorced. I'm not into it for revenge and it wasn't him who cheated on me.



I don't view it as revenge but rather showing him a consequence so he's less likely to do it to someone else


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## snap

Maybe you right people, I have to give it a thought. Will take some time tho, am a slow thinker these days.

(I know I'd rip his a-hole into shreds, if he gives any tiniest pretext now)


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## Catherine602

If he is in the US Marines then he is bound by a code of ethics, infidelity is a major violation. Find out who his commanding officer is and have a meeting with him also mail a letter outlining OM activity to his CO. He destroyed your families life with no thought. Don't do it out of revenge but to teach him a lessen. There are unforeseen consequences to destroying another's life, if he has no honor he should at lest have control. 

He should feel the weight of what he has done. I think his fear is not of you so much as what you can do. Do it- I think it is right - it is better than smashing his face. The incident will go in his file and when he comes up for promotion, his character will be considered in deciding on his fitness to lead. What he did will have lifelong consequnces like it has on you and your child. That may help him act honorably in the future. At any rate he will not remember this as a fun time with a little wild sex but as a time when he destroyed his career. 

I don't believe that the affair has stopped but has gone underground. Her mother is a peice of work, encouraging her daughter in deception and evil. What a wonderful grandmother she certainly has her grandsons best interst at heart.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shaggy

The other reason for taking action against him, is to disrupt the affair.

based on her prior behavior, the minute you are out the door - they are hooking up.


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## snap

Shaggy said:


> Ask her to tell you how you could possibly know that she isn't still cheating? Put the burden on her.
> 
> This is a woman who without remorse popped next door to have sex while you were carving pumpkins with your son.
> 
> This is a woman who denied you sex on your birthday so she could have it with her lover. (At least she didn't give you sloppy seconds).
> 
> At this point, from her actions and her words to family - she seems to only be using you as a meal ticket. Her tears are out of fear not remorse.
> 
> You might ask for a polygraph test to see who deep this has been and if there have been others.
> 
> But considering you've caught her and given her chance after chance and she keeps running back to him - how could anyone trust her? What could she possibly do to prove herself? Wear a chastity belt?
> 
> btw - don't let the guy off easy. He knew it was wrong, he knew you had a family, and he still took what was yours.


Well she told me too she claimed we were separated, although I know this is laughable. In the best case, the OM could've pretended to believe but he couldn't really be that clueless.

Overall you're right, I can't know she still ain't lying. I don't know what is true and what is lies anymore. Just feel increasingly more apathetic about the situation from day to day.


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## aug

Your wife is at the stage where she's on the defensive. She is trying to protect the status quo. Every word out of her mouth right now (till she shows genuine deep remorse) should be considered a lie. 

That's just the way an unethical person is. It'll take her years, maybe decades, before she can genuinely change if she can develop the real intention of doing so.

Look at her mother, for example. She has not learned, but is instead teaching her daughter, your wife, how to be immoral. Your mother-in-law is an indicator of how your wife may turn out.


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## Shaggy

Have you dug through why she is doing it?

is it because he is the love of her life?

is it because he is the best in the sack in the world?

Is it because she gets off on cheating and humiliating you?

What is her motivation?


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## always_hopefull

snap said:


> Harsh folks, but I appreciate it; perhaps I really need a slap or two to come to my senses.
> 
> aug, I don't see the point reporting the OM to his commander. I wanted to let his wife know, but the dude appears to be divorced. I'm not into it for revenge and it wasn't him who cheated on me.


I am so sorry that you are going through this, but welcome. You will find a lot of very good information here that is passed on by many that have been in your very position, I would recommend strongly that you follow it. There will be a lot of tough love coming your way, but as a fellow BS I will let you know that it is only with your best interests in mind that it is given.

As for D or not to D? Only you can make that decision, but I will say that it sounds to me as if your wife is stringing you along until she gets all her ducks in a row. Take that from her, stop being her pawn and take control of the situation. If she was fully in the R mode she would take her dorm application off the table, anything other than that and she is just trying to end the M on her terms. There is too much information in those tapes for any of it to be a lie. As a parent I am often told it is not how your children act around you, but how they act around others that will give you a true indication of their character. This is no different when we look at our spouses. So look at how your W treats you, talks about you, can you really spend the rest of your life with a woman who really doesn't give a rats ass about you? I know I can't, sadly it took me longer than 10 years to figure this out. I had an abusive M for many years, emotionally, physically, verbally an mentally, but I never cheated on my exH. It was he who did the cheating. There is no excuse for her tx of you, none! It is not your fault, it's hers.

If that mil of yours is still there, kick her out asap. You can bet that she is undermining your rel with your W every second you are not there. If your wife doesn't like it tell her that she is more than welcome to go with her and keep her company.

As for informing the OM's CO, I do believe it would be as effective as telling the OMW. Infidelity in the military is a big no no, they do have the ability to order him to stop all contact with her. Revenge is not part of this equation, consequences are. He is as much responsible for sleeping with your wife as she is for sleeping with him. What he did was as wrong, and as such there should be consequences. Anything less would let him rug sweep and move on to the next married woman he takes a fancy to.

I would highly recommend IC for you. With a W and mil like those, you are going to need it. In the meantime, try and be strong, come here often for advice and tough love (when needed). I wish you all the best during this stressful time. 

Be true to yourself and you will never regret it.


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## snap

Great point Shaggy.. somehow it never occurred to me to ask "why". Will do that later today.

I don't think she was deep in love, she sounded quite pragmatic on that record. Have no clue how good is he in the bed; I mean she told me her story (was even smart enough to say he's less endowed), but it's not exactly something I can verify myself.


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## aug

snap said:


> Well he's a coward (even in the record wife voiced that he's kinda cowardy), I doubt he's good at what he does anyway.


But he was not a coward when he had sex many times with you nearby.


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## snap

Point taken, aug.


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## bryanp

If the roles were reversed do you think she would put up with such humiliation and degradation from you? I am sorry to say this but she must look at you her husband as the ultimate doormat. She has been screwing another man next door to you and putting your health at risk for STD's and trash talking about you. 

I am sorry to say this but I think she has been getting a big thrill screwing a next door neighbor while almost under your nose. She is getting off cheating on you.

I think she has continue to cheat on you because she knew that you are such a nice guy that you would continue to forgive her. Let me ask you this. If she was absolutely convinced that if she ever cheated on you that you would automatically divorce her; do you think she would have done this? I doubt it. She continued to do it because she knew that you are too forgiving.

The fact that she would continue to screw this neighbor on your birthday and while you were carving pumpkins with your children clearly implies that she is getting a big thrill cheating and humiliating you in the worst possible way. How can you not see this? Do you feel special, honored and blessed that she is your wife? Please do not waste your life on this woman. Nobody deserves to be humiliated in such a way by a spouse. This is really so sick and perverted. I wish you luck.


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## snap

always_hopefull, thanks.



> There is too much information in those tapes for any of it to be a lie.


I realize that. It's too much detail to be made up on the spot, down to the phrases they exchanged, the confusing moment when she didn't understand something when he was doing her and so on. I checked the timing, they had about 10-15 minutes available but it is certainly enough for a quickie. She claims it was her old fantasies and that sh*ttalking me was her way to get her mother's compassion.

On the record she mentions specific dates when he texted her for a date. I cross checked telecom records, but could find no text exchange. I dug the house over in case she got a prepaid phone, but found nothing. Still, all the details make her story extremely non-believable.

MIL is going home soon. There is no way we ever talk again. The bi*ch didn't even try apologize, but had the balls to insult me in my own home. Wonder what would she say if I done the same to her daughter?

People recommend counseling here, but I'm not very comfortable with the idea. It was hard enough to pour it out here anonymously, not sure I could stand the humiliation of my situation by telling it face to face..


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## snap

> If the roles were reversed do you think she would put up with such humiliation and degradation from you?


I actually asked her exactly that. She says I'd never do that to her (which is true). But what if I did? She broke down crying, saying she'd probably divorce. And she understands why I want the divorce, but she still begs me not to.

I asked was that her convoluted way to push us towards divorce, she cried no. Is she begging me to stay because of uncertainty or fear, again no.

Don't know why I even still asking her all of that, I don't really believe anything she says..


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## snap

Also, I just realized my birthdays are ruined for the foreseeable future.


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## Almostrecovered

snap said:


> Also, I just realized my birthdays are ruined for the foreseeable future.



yup

we call them triggers (things that remind you of the betrayal)


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## snap

Oh yes. There are many. Like the pop songs in the background from telly, when she was confessing to her mother. That crap is still in rotation on radio.


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## InFlux

snap said:


> People recommend counseling here, but I'm not very comfortable with the idea. It was hard enough to pour it out here anonymously, not sure I could stand the humiliation of my situation by telling it face to face..


Actually spilling your guts to a unbiased third party in a safe environment isn't as hard as you think. I told my counselor everything and it felt like taking a big weight off my shoulders. It's their job. I would highly recommend you geting some counseling for yourself and your sanity. This $h!t is among the hardest of things to go through for anyone. You need some help to quiet the cacophony inside your head so you can start to reclaim your life and self-worth. You mentioned how this has already affected your work. That's reason enough alone to go to counseling for you. Your wife needs counseling in the worst way as well but that's her problem.

Also, you need to start focusing on YOU and your kid. Pull a hard 180. Stop analyzing and replaying $h!t in your head! IT DOESN'T MATTER NOW! Fu$k her! Yes, you love her. I still love my WW. She's the mother of my kids. But they need to solve their own problems and they need to OWN the ramifications of their actions. She's not owning anything right now. The ramifications of her actions is you moving on which is why she's starting to freak because she's all of a sudden scared for her future. Don't mistake fear for love though. Focus on yourself an you moving on. Are you working out? You should if you're not because it's a great stress reliever among other things. God knows you have a lot of stress! Get some nice clothes, get dressed-up and go for a night out with your friends. Flirt and have fun (don't get into anything just yet though...) But do it for yourself because you need and believe there is light at the end of the tunnel. That you have value. Once you talk to another female that likes your for you and respects you, believe me all this BS is going to go away real fast any you will have clarity. It's easy to stay in abusive/toxic relationships out of comfort or feeling at some level that you don't deserve better and that nobody better would be interested in your "baggage". That is most definitely NOT the case!


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## Almostrecovered

telly? You just gave away your home country


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## snap

Almostrecovered said:


> telly? You just gave away your home country


I prefer to think am speaking broken mid-Atlantic  But seriously, my vagueness over some details is not an attempt to conceal anything from the forum members but rather make this thread less google-able from outside.


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## snap

InFlux, I see your point. Perhaps I need to find a counselor, just need to sink in this idea in my mind.

I don't feel emasculated, chicks check me out often enough. It's the whole combination of disrespect, humiliation and brazenness of it all that really gets me.


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## morituri

Follow the advice of Influx who recommended IC (individual counseling) to you. I underwent psychological therapy and I can tell you that it made a world of difference in my ability to process the trauma in a healthy way.

I also loved my ex-wife with whom I was married for 10 years, but finding and watching that video of her and the OM engaged in sex was simply too much for me. Despite her hysterical crying and begging me on her hands and knees not to divorce her, I filed for divorce. I know myself and I knew that I could not heal from the trauma if I had to see her day in day out. Her presence alone was a trigger that made it extremely hard for me to function on a daily basis.

What I'm trying to say is that your healing comes FIRST. In my case, divorcing my wife was an essential part of my healing. Perhaps it could be for you as well.


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## Halien

Almostrecovered said:


> telly? You just gave away your home country


The username gave that away! But Snap, we understand your reasons.

...snap!! I'm hijacking Snap's thread.


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## desert-rose

I'm so sorry you're going through this. Your wife is a terrible person right now. She is treating you like dirt and it must feel terrible. The best thing you can do for yourself is just cut off all contact with her (unless it's about the kid) and file for divorce. That is the only thing that will make her question whether she wants you or the OM. It looks like she is so lost in her affair fog that she won't come back to you anytime soon. But, if she does, you don't have to go through with the divorce. Please expose this affair, go dark, and file for divorce. This will be the hardest thing ever. Anytime you miss her and want to plead with her to come back, go listen to that audio recording again. Your mind is going to want to rug-sweep, to minimize what she did to you in the hopes of salvaging something, but you have to recognize the truth of what's there. It's going to hurt like hell. But, try and spend time with your son and do other things that make you happy instead of fixating on her. She doesn't deserve you. If she someday becomes a person who does deserve you, you could consider taking her back then, but for now....she is a liar and she has to be removed from your life if she isn't going to be serious about her reconciliation.


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## Gabriel

When you are feeling weak toward your wife, please remember that the ONLY reason she is crying, begging and pleading with you to stay is because she is scared of what her life will be without your security...because she said herself the next door guy is only in it for the sex.

She realizes she will have no companion and just a f*ck buddy. And guess what? F*ck buddies don't have any financial obligations to her. 

Drop her yesterday. How the hell can you possibly even think of staying with this woman???


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## Unsure in Seattle

God, what a rotten feeling like that- to be so disrespected. So used.

I'm so sorry. And yeah... I don't see what's possibly salvagable out of this relationship. 

You need to end it. You deserve better. It's all a big joke to her.


----------



## Chaparral

snap said:


> Thanks for your replies, you very much say out loud what I have on my mind.
> 
> I have zero trust in her. I think she just hangs around until she gets a place to move out. She says it's not so, but her words are not very convincing to me. I refuse to set me up for backstabbing again.
> 
> The OM is not the issue anymore, I called him, he got scared ****less and tried to deny everything. He said she claimed we were legally separated, and he didn't truly know our martial status "but they were just friends anyway". He is a career Marine here and am just a nerd, but he seemed really afraid of the possibility of any physical confrontation with me.


Turn him in to the Marine Corps. They will take care of him.


----------



## CH

Divorce.


----------



## Locard

Dude, in the nicest possible way, your wife is a tramp. Sorry, you didn't deserve this.


----------



## the guy

In Sept. she had a chance to avoid the D, then in Oct. she betrayed you again......go for the D .....she had her chance!!!!!!


----------



## oaksthorne

Soccerfan73 said:


> Your wife is corrupt and she comes from a corrupt family. I wouldn't trust a single thing she says from this point forward.
> 
> Take care of yourself and go to a lawyer about custory of your children.


Oh yeah! You deserve better. She came from a trashy background, and will just lay low for a while if you R, and then do it all over again. Its better to get out while you are still young; and make a good marriage with someone who will really love and respect you. I am so sorry you are going through this.


----------



## davedenlow

It does seem she is full of it, but maybe her loosing sleep and weight is a sign of real regret. I wouldnt say jump right into trusting her again. Maybe be seperated and move out, see how she acts then.


----------



## Simon Phoenix

Wow. Just wow.

While there are instances where reconciliation is possible, this isn't one of them. It wasn't bad enough that the MIL knows about it but is cosigning her actions? And correct me if I'm wrong but you stated that one of the times they hooked up was on your birthday? 

As I stated before on this board, in cases like this, you know what you have to do. It's sort of similar to when that kid was forced to put down Ole Yeller. You love and remember the good times but just like the story, the person you love is not the same and will likely never return. You have to put the dog (this marriage) down.

As many posters here have stated, you should not file as a ploy of revenge; you should file as a way to get some of your self-worth back. The only reason she is tearing up right now is because she has the best of both worlds (defined as cake-eating). She gets to screw the OM with no strings attached AND at his best. Since she doesn't live with him, she doesn't know any of his faults or flaws. That is why she can rattle off one negative thing after another concerning you. Even if some of them aren't true, you are still regarded as persona non grata by her and her mother. At the same time, you provide the stability, reliability, and resources that only being with you can provide. She knows that the OM is not the least bit interested in paying the bills, taking the kid to the zoo, or holding hands with her at the mall; that's where you come in.

Upset that apple cart and move on with your life. There are other women out there who will value you a lot more than she does. A helluva lot more...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TRy

Simon Phoenix said:


> Upset that apple cart and move on with your life. There are other women out there who will value you a lot more than she does. A helluva lot more...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree::iagree::iagree:
You sound like a nice person. There are many decent women out there that are looking for someone just like you. They are telling there mothers that all the good ones are either married or gay. When you get divorced, you will not be married or gay and they will value you like your wife never has. You will look back and ask yourself why you waited so long to find happiness with a good woman.


----------



## snap

I confessed to my friend yesterday. He is the first person who is not hostile to me and is aware about the situation.

It really did feel better, thanks everyone for advice.

I need to get over it.


----------



## Shaggy

snap said:


> I confessed to my friend yesterday. He is the first person who is not hostile to me and is aware about the situation.
> 
> It really did feel better, thanks everyone for advice.
> 
> I need to get over it.


Are you thinking this is "your problem to just get over?" 

What is the plan? Divorce?


----------



## snap

She has intermittent panic attacks, speech comprehension problems and her blood pressure was through the roof last few days. Hypertension was in fact the problem that put her on life support during the labours years ago. I take no pleasure in her misery. Am letting her to calm down.

The plan was to divorce, but I don't know now. I heard what everyone had to say here, and agree to all the good points that were said. I might be too weak a person to just break it off. I will just wait in my limbo a bit and see.


----------



## Shaggy

You talk about the cheating like it is in the past and done. 

What is to be done about her chronic wandering next door for a quickie? What is she going to do to actually stop it now and forever?


----------



## snap

Of course she says she learned her lesson, but I don't take her as any kind of information source.

The answer, Shaggy, is - I don't know. I am actually quite apathetic and emotionally removed from all this now.. it's how I imagined antidepressants work on people, except I take no pills.


----------



## Almostrecovered

snap said:


> I will just wait in my limbo a bit and see.



limbo destroys the soul, I wish you will realize that you have the strength


----------



## snap

It probably does. But after all that happened, a week or two is really nothing worry. I don't care either way at this point.


----------



## aug

Well, in the meantime, dont have sex with her. If she's pregnant now, you'll be in a much bigger mess than now. And just maybe you wont know for sure who the biological father is.

Also, start preparing yourself financially and legally. Remove yourself or cancel any joint bank accounts and credit cards. Start securing any money, assets, etc off somewhere where she will not know about it or find it.

Secure your evidences.

She (and her mother) has put you in a soul sapping state. And even if she never cheats again (which you can never be sure) your marriage as you know it is over. The innocence has left. Once you get a handle on your emotions, you'll be in a better state to decide what to do.


----------



## Initfortheduration

You need to listen to the recording again. And if that doesn't change your mind back to divorce. Well all I can say is the life of a cuckold is a horribly demeaning thing. 

Oh and your wife is not merely disrespecting you. She has CONTEMPT FOR YOU. A marriage can survive many things. But contempt is not survivable. You see, contempt is what the Nazi's had for the Jews. That's right. So play that recording again. And don't only listen to the words. Listen to the disdain in her voice when she is talking about you. 

Oh and if you do choose to live life as her cuckold. Please research it. You are opening yourself up for a lot of pain. But its your life.


----------



## snap

Boy, I sure did listen to it. In fact I could almost recite this 36 minute piece of conversation word for word now.

I realize you all are doing your best trying to snap me back to reality, but I do see the reality of this situation. I wish I had some anger.

She has her last exam next Tuesday, we will talk after that. I arranged a couch at my friend's place that night, just in case.


----------



## Patricia B. Pina

She broke your trust.
File for a divorce and let the judge decide.


----------



## snap

I took a tangerine out of fruit basket here at lunch today. It had "LIMBO" written on the sticker. Bold red font on blue background. I had to check with a co-worker to make sure am not hallucinating.

WTF.


----------



## Sindo

She evaded your online and telecommunications monitoring with ease, and you're a computer engineer. She also lives next door to OM. 

Either of these would make NC completely unenforceable. 

You can no longer operate on trust, but you have no way to verify what she says. 

You may want to assess whether the basic foundations for an R are even technically feasible.

I'm not saying it can't be done, but I don't see an obvious solution.


----------



## HusbandInPain

snap said:


> I took a tangerine out of fruit basket here at lunch today. It had "LIMBO" written on the sticker. Bold red font on blue background. I had to check with a co-worker to make sure am not hallucinating.
> 
> WTF.


lol


----------



## Almostrecovered

When fruit starts talking to you, you should listen
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shaggy

Snap, what you are feeling is emotional shock at her outrageous betrayal. Her cheating wasnt in a car at work or a hotel, it was right next door, and likely in your own bed. She did it practically in front of you. It's so far beyond what even regular cheaters would do that it's unbelievable. This followed by her mother condoning it. Also extreme.

You've reach the emotional limit if dealing with her blatant betrayal MD humiliation of you. So you are shutting down emotionally. If you aren't seeing a therapist, I really advise you to find one immediately to help you through this. Where you are currently heading is a place where you may never come back from. She has literally scared your soul. 

If you stay together, and honestly I don't see how you could at this point since she can't be trusted, you need to move. Where. You live is the scene of the crime, and the POSOM is far to handy to your cheatng wife.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## snap

Shaggy, yes, I'm going to set an appointment with a shrink. After talking to a friend it should be easier to find words.

I can make the OM move out instead, am fairly confident in that. But the thing is, many here take my lack of action towards D as a hope for R. It's not the case. I'm just lost at the moment.


----------



## Shaggy

Making a decision and taking action might just be what you need to revive yourself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## sadcalifornian

Make a decision and take action. She is a serial adulteress with the same OM. Her mom being no better, your W's upbringing is in question too. Are you sure this is the woman you thought she was all this time? How do you know she hasn't done this before?


----------



## lordmayhem

snap said:


> Shaggy, yes, I'm going to set an appointment with a shrink. After talking to a friend it should be easier to find words.
> 
> I can make the OM move out instead, am fairly confident in that. But the thing is, many here take my lack of action towards D as a hope for R. It's not the case. I'm just lost at the moment.


You're feeling lost right now because you are probably still engaging her, talking about the marriage and her feelings. Everyone here has given you helpful advice, so there's no need for me to add to this: Do the hard 180. This is an empowerment tool, not a tool to manipulate her into doing anything. You need to start detaching from her now. Stop being available. Stop talking about the marriage or relationship. Be cheerful, but keep everything about only the finances or the child. When she starts to talk to you abou the marriage, just say you dont want to talk about that anymore. Stop calling her, stop texting her. 

Time to start detaching and planning for the D. You will stop feeling lost.


----------



## snap

OK, so she poured out last night. I didn't even have to resort to waterboarding.

It began with her usual pillow talk about working it out, moving on. I replied that I have nowhere to move on from. That I feel my life is stolen. That she is a stranger and the woman I love does not exist. That I'm living a life of lies, that chances of working it out are slim to non-existent. How what she tells me is not white lies and her concealing the truth is not helping me at all. How I wish she just had a courage to let me go, to give me my life back.

Then after minutes of silence she opened up. She had sex with him twice between mid-September (when we were "working it out") up to that Halloween weekend. That everything on the record was in fact true plus more.

Their previous time was right after that license test I failed. She bumped into him on the parking lot and fixed the date, that explains the radio silence. She said she knew I was down, I was trying hard to fix things, but she didn't care but pretended to. She had no contempt for me, she just felt nothing about me, and she felt that way for a long time now. Indifference. The sex wasn't even that good, the OM had performance anxiety every other time, intercourses were short without much foreplay, and the springs on his bed are loud and uncomfortable. They used condoms most of the time, but he rode her bareback twice during their affair (yes, STD check).

Why she did that then, if sex was bad, and she had no love for the OM? After all, she realized it was dangerous, how vigilant I was during the R attempt, that I am no idiot and it was destined to blow up at some point? She felt empowered over me.

She said she was faithful wife until this year. Told me about all the advances men made on her she can remember. How one guy in language class here had hots on her. A co-worker at her job in our country who was always prompting her to a date. About GNO on her friend's birthday, when some guy kissed her neck while dancing, sending shivers down her spine, and she had to really struggle to find willpower not to follow him when he asked. Her friend's husband, who asked her to come over while his wife was away. A balding dude at her temp job here, who on a lunch pause drove her not to the cafe but to a hotel and proposed her to be his mistress. Really too long a list to type it here.

After that she said she realized I will divorce her. During our R attempt she was faking it out fear and uncertainty, but when sh*t hit the fan after Halloween she realized she will actually miss me. She understands the marriage after what she have done is non-salvageable.

I feel like an immense weight has lifted from my shoulders. I can breathe again, for the first time in months. I get control of my life back in my hands.


----------



## lordmayhem

Alright, now that you have your closure, you can start detaching, separating your finances, and preparing for the D. Tell her to leave if possible, and that she can have visitation right to your son. 

Yeah, the sex was so bad that she texted that she couldn't wait to feel him inside her again, huh? That she had to go there to his place for a quickie and all that. Oh well. It's over. She's free to bang ALL those other guys who have been dying to bed her. Just like so many cheating wives, has very low self esteem and *she loves the attention from other men, just not from her husband*.

Start the 180 and detach.


----------



## lordmayhem

Also, I'd expose your MIl to your FIL too. It's the right thing to do. He needs to know what kind of tramp he's married to, that she's taught her daughter how to be one. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree alright.


----------



## Shaggy

So why is she still living under your roof for another night?

Expose her to everyone and cut her out of your life, and your kids too if you can.


----------



## ArmyofJuan

snap said:


> I realize you all are doing your best trying to snap me back to reality, but I do see the reality of this situation. I wish I had some anger.


This was the hardest part for me and what held me back, it took me a year to get angry. Once I got angry if felt GOOD.

My problem was I kept taking blame for the M falling apart and making excuses for my W. I kept thinking that deep down she was a good person and that she was a victim in this too.

Once I "gave up" and pointed all the blame back on her and that she wasn't as great as I was imagining then I had all kinds of power. That's when the tables turned and it was me wanting the D, not her. I could care less about what she was doing and was planing my future without her.

Then she talked me into taking her back lol.


----------



## aug

lordmayhem said:


> Also, I'd expose your MIl to your FIL too. It's the right thing to do. He needs to know what kind of tramp he's married to, that she's taught her daughter how to be one. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree alright.



I overlooked this. You should do this -- expose your mother-in-law. You have the recording; let your father-in-law have a listen.

This achieves a few purposes.
1. Your FIL may be in the same place you were in, wondering about his wife. 
2. This cuts off the support of infidelity from your MIL to your wife.
3. Allows your MIL to feel the consequences of her lifelong cheating.
4. Your wife will see the results of her own mother's affairs.


----------



## aug

snap said:


> She said she knew I was down, I was trying hard to fix things, but she didn't care but pretended to. She had no contempt for me, she just felt nothing about me, and she felt that way for a long time now. *Indifference*.



The opposite of love is not hate. Rather, the opposite is "indifference".


----------



## Shaggy

aug said:


> I overlooked this. You should do this -- expose your mother-in-law. You have the recording; let your father-in-law have a listen.
> 
> This achieves a few purposes.
> 1. Your FIL may be in the same place you were in, wondering about his wife.
> 2. This cuts off the support of infidelity from your MIL to your wife.
> 3. Allows your MIL to feel the consequences of her lifelong cheating.
> 4. Your wife will see the results of her own mother's affairs.


:iagree::iagree:


----------



## Sindo

I wouldn't be surprised if FIL already knows. The wife has probably talked plenty of **** about snap to justify the affair, and may have talked both parents into her way of thinking.


----------



## Shaggy

Sindo said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if FIL already knows. The wife has probably talked plenty of **** about snap to justify the affair, and may have talked both parents into her way of thinking.


I think the bit the FIL might find interesting is his own wife's reaction and advice. It sounds like she has too much experience in this area.


----------



## bryanp

If you were to stay with her then you would have to be out of your mind. She has minimized everything in her story to put a spin on it. The sex was bad with the OM because he had anxiety issues but no problem riding her bareback......Oh please. She has no respect for you whatsoever. If you do not respect yourself then who will?


----------



## CH

Just to let you know, if the sex is bad we never go back for more. Why trade great/good or crappy sex for worse sex, that's a bunch of bull. Unless she did it to spite you only.

My wife before my affair was a vixen in bed and could suck a golf ball through a garden hose. But the OW could suck a basketball through a straw. But I told my wife the sex was just meh...

If the sex was bad, it'll happen once, maybe twice, a third time if we're dead drunk.


----------



## sadcalifornian

She may claim that she has been faithful till last year, but from the series of near misses she confessed to, it seems she has poor boundary issues. The type of advances she describes don't just happen unless she led them on in some ways. It seems unbeknownst to you she always carried this permiscuous side in her all throughout her M. 

I know you are set for D, but in case you contemplate R, this must be addressed.


----------



## snap

Thanks everyone.

Yes, I'm still set for D. I don't think her remorse is genuine.


----------



## lordmayhem

Considering what you heard on tape about you, I wouldn't believe a word she says. If there's one thing I've learned about affairs, it's that many Waywards become fantastic actors/actresses, my own fWW included. Hollywood has nothing on some of these WSs. They could literally win an Oscar or Academy Award for some of their performances.

The sad part is that many BSs fall for these performances, especially after DDay. So many get fooled into False R time and time again. Stick around long enough and read enough stories here and you'll see many BSs claim that their WS is genuinely remorseful, only to find out later that the WS simply took it underground.


----------



## snap

lordmayhem, I wanted to believe her words, badly. But I am too rational a person to repeat the exact same mistake twice.

I let the MIL stay here, she apologized, I remained calm and nice throughout. When their guard slipped, I placed a VAR (buying it was probably the greatest investment of my life).

Checked it today. Yep, I'm still the bad guy. Yep, it still annoys her that I feel down. Yep, she still is planning for her life without me. This apparently was truly her first time affair, but am not keeping the score anyway. The only positive thing said was that I am smart, that is apparent even to them to deny.

Breaking it off on Friday.


----------



## lordmayhem

Yeah, those VARs have such high success rates, it's almost unbelievable. Besides a keylogger, a VAR is almost an absolutely must have piece of equipment for any BS.


----------



## snap

One great thing about voice recording (as compared to tapping into keystrokes) is that you get to hear the voice. The intonation, the vile, *how* the things were said. Makes it much harder for WS to explain away, and does not allow BS to convince themselves.


----------



## snap

Also folks, I need an advice.

She has a recently divorced female friend, and it was nasty. The girl filed for abuse by her husband: the investigation is still undergoing, and she is under spotlight now for false accusations. I never laid a finger on my wife, but can't help but wonder if that would give any ideas to my STBXW.. She still has MIL at her side, and they sure could contrive something, so that her mother testifies.

Is it possible to somehow defuse such development beforehand?


----------



## lordmayhem

snap said:


> Also folks, I need an advice.
> 
> She has a recently divorced female friend, and it was nasty. The girl filed for abuse by her husband: the investigation is still undergoing, and she is under spotlight now for false accusations. I never laid a finger on my wife, but can't help but wonder if that would give any ideas to my STBXW.. She still has MIL at her side, and they sure could contrive something, so that her mother testifies.
> 
> Is it possible to somehow defuse such development beforehand?


This is very common, especially when you read some of the stories here. Your WW just may get ideas from her toxic friend. Once again, the VAR is your friend. Keep one on you or at least nearby to protect yourself, which is why some BSs get a couple of the devices.


----------



## snap

Good idea. My only VAR is free now though, I heard all I needed to hear. Will just keep it on me.


----------



## Chaparral

I'm wondering if you could get her into a conversation about what her friend did and lead it around to the fact that you sure are glad you two have never abused each other etc. Recording it with your VAR of course. Might just come in handy.


----------



## Shaggy

Yes use the var on you at all times, and do try to get her to talk about how you two never abuse one another!

I think it also means you need to be swift and through when you kick her out and tell her you are divorcing. Do not be alone with her from the moment you tell her she is gone. Don't give her the opportunity to create a scene where she can claim something happened.


----------



## NotLikeYou

snap- I'd like to expand a little on Shaggy's advice. He is absolutely correct, that you need to keep the VAR on you. I hope you did not delete the conversations you have already recorded. Just save them electronically and free up the space on the VAR. Those recordings will be very valuable if your wife tries to claim abuse in court.

But separate from that, have a conversation with her. She thinks you're weak. And a weak man would naturally ask "if we don't make it, you wouldn't go the route of your divorcing girlfriend and accuse me of abuse, would you?" And she will try to placate you, and tell you that she has too much love and respect for you blah blah blah.

That should get you what you need.

But still keep it around afterwards. You are still collecting information that will help you.

Sorry you are going through this. You will like yourself a lot better after you kick your wife and the ***** that spawned her to the curb.


----------



## aug

I wonder what the negatives are if you expose your MIL to your FIL?


----------



## snap

No negatives, but even if he is not aware, he will eventually be on her side anyway. Don't want to waste my breath on that.


----------



## snap

OK, I'm going to break it today, in 1 hour actually. Can't just go around with straight face and pretend everything is OK. Scheming is not my strength.


----------



## Almostrecovered

then protect yourself first

ask that question that notlikeyou posted- "if we don't make it, you wouldn't go the route of your divorcing girlfriend and accuse me of abuse, would you?"
when she claims she would never do that then break the news, then you will have her confession on the tape


----------



## snap

Well, if she threatens to actually do that, it will be just as effective.


----------



## Almostrecovered

exactly, from now on keep that VAR on you whenever you have encounters with her


----------



## HusbandInPain

snap said:


> OK, I'm going to break it today, in 1 hour actually. Can't just go around with straight face and pretend everything is OK. Scheming is not my strength.


Let us know how you get on buddy.


----------



## sadcalifornian

aug said:


> I wonder what the negatives are if you expose your MIL to your FIL?


Considering MIL still lives with OP, exposing her A to FIL at this juncture seems a bit risky, as both MIL and WW may lash out at him in retaliation.


----------



## JustaJerk

It sounds like your wife was/is just waiting to get her degree and say "Hasta La Vista, Baby" but you cut her off at the pass. No use in waiting now, throw both of those conniving women out on the street. Let her and her dear mummy shack up in the dorm. 

Is the neighbor a married man?


----------



## Shaggy

Snap? You still around? How did it go?


----------



## snap

Here I am.

She agreed to amicable divorce, I went over to my friends place. Then in the night she ended up at the ambulance. Hypertension and panic attack with body spasms. I came over, she begged me to stay until she recovers a bit.

Took her to the docs the next day, she put her on ADs. She hasn't slept more than 2 hours since the Wednesday night, looks like a banshee, vomits and is shaking all the time. I'm sticking around for now.


----------



## Shaggy

Let me guess the MIL says its all your fault?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## snap

No, the MIL is scared about the daughter's condition. She pleads for me to be around.


----------



## aug

I dont get it. Why would your wife still talk sh*t about you and yet react this way?

And dont move out of your home. Let your wife move out to her friend or stay with your MIL. I think you need to be there for your son. Your wife may not be able to care for him under her condition.


----------



## Eli-Zor

snap said:


> She agreed to amicable divorce, I went over to my friends place. Then in the night she ended up at the ambulance. Hypertension and panic attack with body spasms. I came over, she begged me to stay until she recovers a bit.
> 
> Took her to the docs the next day, she put her on ADs. She hasn't slept more than 2 hours since the Wednesday night, looks like a banshee, vomits and is shaking all the time. I'm sticking around for now.


It's the shock of you standing up for yourself and wanting to move on with your life without her .

Move your MIL out, ask her to take her daughter with you , if she protests play the VAR back to her . Every day she is supposedly sick is a day she is working to weaken your resolve .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Sindo

Snap, did you play to her your latest VAR recording? Did she give any explanations?


----------



## Sindo

Eli-Zor said:


> It's the shock of you standing up for yourself and wanting to move on with your life without her .
> 
> Move your MIL out, ask her to take her daughter with you , if she protests play the VAR back to her . Every day she is supposedly sick is a day she is working to weaken your resolve .
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'd have to disagree on this one. There's a child involved, who deserves to have a mentally stable, physically healthy mother. If snap continues with the D, he needs to do his best to ensure that his wife will be able to cope.

One thing I would agree with is that snap should play those VAR recordings to MIL. He needs to have a frank discussion with her. She needs to face up to her own role in this mess.


----------



## JustaJerk

> I dont get it. Why would your wife still talk sh*t about you and yet react this way?


Maybe she's Bi-polar. Either way, there's just too much water under the bridge for you to continue.


----------



## Locard

Awww Snap, that is soo sad. Aint reality a *****? You are a very gracious person, hopefully not a sucker.....


----------



## sadcalifornian

Why do I feel more angry toward your MIL than your WW?


----------



## Sindo

sadcalifornian said:


> Why do I feel more angry toward your MIL than your WW?


I'm feeling the same way. Even in adulthood, parents can still be a huge influence on their kid's lives. They are supposed to provide wisdom and moral guidance. 

Ultimately, the responsibility for cheating falls on WW. But with MIL actively encouraging the affair, this marriage didn't stand a chance.


----------



## morituri

I truly hope that MIL suffers from seeing the consequences of her encouraging her daughter to continue to betray her marital bows has brought to her child. Then again that might be as naive as hoping that Santa Claus is real.


----------



## snap

Thought I'll do an update.

Still hanging around there while she recovers. Took work home, got my sh*t together and became productive again.

I'm not sure how long it will take her to recover, and how it will play out after that. Thing is, nor I really care all that much at this point.

We don't discuss what has happened at the moment, as this sends her into crises again. I stated it clear though that I remember everything and have no intention to rug-sweep it. That I'm going to do whatever will feel right thing to do at given moment, and that am done with working on anything on my part.

I still have feelings for her, and she realizes it. They are however not clouding my judgement at this point, and she knows that too.

She asked me yesterday if I am afraid we split up in the end? Hell no, ain't afraid of anything now. I could divorce this very instant and not miss a heartbeat.


----------



## morituri

Good to hear from you Snap and that you are emotionally stronger.

I think that your efforts in helping her to recover should be with the sole purpose of her becoming emotionally strong enough to finally accept that the marriage is over. Why? Because she needs to be emotionally strong to do her job as mother of your child after the two of you divorce.

As far you, I would advise you that you start planning the logistics of your life after the divorce, as well as continuing to improve yourself in all areas of your life - exercise, eat healthy, quit smoking (if you're a smoker), go to therapy, start a hobby, and make new friends (including platonic friendships with women).

Don't be a stranger and come back to let us know how you are doing.


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## snap

She just called me; apparently the OM sent her facebook invite again. Some people just don't get civility. I feel like punching some dude's face today, repeatedly.


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## Shaggy

snap said:


> She just called me; apparently the OM sent her facebook invite again. Some people just don't get civility. I feel like punching some dude's face today, repeatedly.


Clearly OM thinks it would be ok for them to be friends again. Lots of good times to talk about.

Can you send him from love back from you? 

Has she sent him a NC letter?


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## Eli-Zor

Why is he not blocked, if he is blocked he can't send an invite.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Sindo

If you haven't already, consider having some serious discussions with MIL about her behavior. Whether or not you D, life would be easier if she accepts some responsibility and is not aligned against you. Right now she's probably as receptive as she'll ever get.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## snap

A bit of an update. Still looking after her, but ADs now kicking in and she begins to function again.

She knitted me a scarf for xmas. First time she knit in her life.

I have my emotional ups and downs, sometimes able to not give it a thought at all, other times feeling totally gutted.

Shaggy, yes, there was a message of NC, coming from her and restated by me to the jerk over the phone the first time around.

His ass didn't suffer yet, he turned out to be out of country until Xmas. For whatever reason, he didn't show up home for xmas either 

Eli, at the time when she dropped him off FB, I didn't really pay attention, was on my way to the door. She didn't realize he has to be blocked.

Sindo, I'm not going to do any moralizing with MIL, have little belief in people genuinely changing their ways so late in their life. She is playing nice now, but I don't buy any of that. Not talking to her.


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## morituri

So is your goal still to divorce her?


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## snap

morituri, given the circumstances, divorce is the only rational choice. That said, I am a weak person, sometimes really wish to give her a chance, other times want to break up right there.

She seems to feel my mood swings. When I'm down she follows me around the place, looking at me nervously, wrestling her fingers, as if she anticipates what I can utter. Says I am free to dump her whenever I want, she will not contest it, that she takes a day at a time.


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## morituri

Weak? No just human. Choosing to divorce or to reconcile does not imply either emotional strength or weakness. Nevertheless, you must take care of your well being for not only your sake but for that of your child. If divorce will help you to attain the emotional healing you need, and you know it, then you should follow through.

Have you had a chance to talk to her doctor regarding her mental status?


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## Sindo

When it comes to the child, there are pros and cons for both D and R. A pro for R could be a stable family unit. Of course if she cheats again a lot of the pros start being outweighed by the cons.

I'm no expert, but I'd say chances of R might be abit better than they were because she faced some real, physical consequences for her cheating. If she dares risk it again after this, she truly is too far gone.

When she is fully recovered, you need to make a decision on whether you're in or out. Don't string her along.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## morituri

If you choose to proceed with divorce you may want to consider the option of continuing to live together for some time after the divorce becomes finalized. The cohabitation can be a temporary solution lasting a year or two before the two of you go your separate ways. If you are curious then read *Living Together After Divorce* for more information.


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## snap

Weak in the sense there is a mismatch between what I think I have to do and what I actually do. If anyone came up with this to me for advice, I would've thought they would be crazy to not drop her like a hot potato. Yet here I am.

The doc diagnosed her with phobia-induced panic attacks, the treatment is a particular class of anti-depressants. They seem to work, although there are side effects.

I'm not sure there is a point living together if we go for D. Sounds like prolonging the agony. When I came out with divorce, she asked if I'd still help her with fixing furniture, computer, broadband etc in the beginning. If we maybe could stay intimate for a while. I felt it sounded too much like a marriage, that's the sort of thing a husband does.

Sindo, I have been thinking about it a lot. We agreed for a civil divorce back then, I wouldn't have let the mother of my child live under the bridge. One part of me hopes it really is remorse, the other doubts if it's just her insecurity about the future.


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## oldmittens

any updates Snap did you move ahead with the divorce???


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## morituri

snap said:


> Weak in the sense there is a mismatch between what I think I have to do and what I actually do. If anyone came up with this to me for advice, I would've thought they would be crazy to not drop her like a hot potato. Yet here I am.


That's because you've been emotionally vested in her for so many years that it is hard to simply drop her. Intellectually you can make the leap to divorce but emotionally, it will be some time.



> The doc diagnosed her with phobia-induced panic attacks, the treatment is a particular class of anti-depressants. They seem to work, although there are side effects.


If one of those side effects is a low or non-existent sex drive then so much the better.



> I'm not sure there is a point living together if we go for D. Sounds like prolonging the agony. When I came out with divorce, she asked if I'd still help her with fixing furniture, computer, broadband etc in the beginning. If we maybe could stay intimate for a while. I felt it sounded too much like a marriage, that's the sort of thing a husband does.


You're right of course but helping her every so often, just might benefit your son as well.



> Sindo, I have been thinking about it a lot. We agreed for a civil divorce back then, I wouldn't have let the mother of my child live under the bridge. One part of me hopes it really is remorse, the other doubts if it's just her insecurity about the future.


Your emotional recovery should be your primary concern before any possible marital recovery. Your wife is being taken care of so she can recover but you are on your own and so you need some emotional detachment from her to achieve it.


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## Complexity

Snap is a man with good heart, shame his weak side allows him to stay with such a manipulative person.


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## Meatpuppet

Complexity said:


> Snap is a man with good heart, shame his weak side allows him to stay with such a manipulative person.


I don't think that's particularly fair to say, bro. It's easy to read, evalauate, and comment on other people's problems when they're laid out in black pixels on a message board. What you can't feel is the amount of love they felt/still feel for the person, no matter what they put them through. 

Snap, you're not weak; in fact, you've done things that I think many people on this board didn't have the sack to do - and I've read hundreds of threads on this forum. 

That being said, Snap, your story is among the most gut-wrenching I've read. The recordings and MIL's compllicity make it all the more egregious. More than once I felt myself clenching my teeth reading your posts. 

All I can say is do what's best for you and your child. If that means R, go for it. 

But if you can see your way clear to drop your wife and maintain a good life for you and your kid, all the better! 

By the way, if you can get away with it, deliver a MMA elbow to your MIL's face. I'd pay good money to see that happen! :smthumbup: (jk, but not really )

Please give us an update soon. We're all rooting for you!


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## snap

Thanks for your concerns folks.

Over these weeks I realized that there is no way for me to find out if the remorse is genuine. People can act and fake anything. If I want to give it another shot, I'd have to trust a person I shouldn't trust.

At this point I can imagine my future without her, but still I decided to give R a try. This might be a weak move, and if the situation repeats again there will be noone but me to blame, but it's my conscious choice. I understand this is irrational, recognize the risk involved and prepared to face the consequences (as much as one can be prepared for that).

Meatpuppet, thanks for the support. I still love her, yes, the whole exercise would've been pointless if I didn't.

Mori, the ADs did affect her libido, but can't say sex life has suffered; she still initiates sex a few times a week. The other side-effects are nausea, and occasionally she has tactile hallucinactions: sensations of raindrops or crawling on the skin. This drives her crazy, but she apparently can't switch to another class of drugs as these seem to treat her panic issues well.

I do not lash out on her in this initial period of recovery, but she can't ignore my mood swings. Last night she broke down, unprompted. Sobbing, apologizing, saying how sorry she is for what she done and how selfish she was for putting me to the risk of STDs. She is hugging me all the time; when I wake up, I invariably find her cuddling to me. She cooks dinners and took on more than her share of house chores, despite that I made it clear I have no desire to "punish" her with housework or anything else.

I am much better emotionally that I was a month ago. Able to function normally, slowly getting back to my pre D-day work performance, things that were neglected this autumn are getting done. Still triggering every day, but they don't send me as deep down as before.


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## hookares

Better start applying yourself at work. Thus far, the only thing you have established in your life is that you are a excellent meal ticket.
I served similarly for twenty years with the only difference being my ex didn't display all the lying. Just indifference.


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## lordmayhem

Re-read your original post, heck, the entire thread. Your WW is a fantastic actress, you even got the grovelling at your feet and the shaking, all the while she continued to bang OM, demonize you to him and your MIL. Now its all good because she hugs and cuddles you. You've seen and HEARD her at her worst. I don't know. But don't be surprised in the future when perhaps next time she will leave with the next OM. 

Less than a month ago you were sure. Your DDay wasnt that long ago, and I believe you're in the downward dip of the emotional roller coaster where you feel you want R. Don't be surprised when you feel later on that the very sight of her repels you and you want D.


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## snap

lordmayhem said:


> Re-read your original post, heck, the entire thread. Your WW is a fantastic actress, you even got the grovelling at your feet and the shaking, all the while she continued to bang OM, demonize you to him and your MIL. Now its all good because she hugs and cuddles you. You've seen and HEARD her at her worst. I don't know. But don't be surprised in the future when perhaps next time she will leave with the next OM.


I will not be surprized.


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## snap

hookares said:


> Better start applying yourself at work. Thus far, the only thing you have established in your life is that you are a excellent meal ticket.


Excellent is an overstatement, I'm doing OK but not rich by any means.

And I have done enough in my life to not regret it, even if my personal life turns out total wreck.


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## warlock07

Are you getting back for the right reasons? What do you hope to get out of this R?


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## lordmayhem

It's going to take more than cooking, and hugging and saying sorry. It has to be true remorse. Ensure that she's totally in the left column.


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## snap

lordmayhem, it's a good summary, thanks for reminding. She seems to be in the left column, but obviously I can't be sure of anything.

Am I sure her remorse is genuine? Nope, I can't be certain of anything now. I don't trust her. And although so far NC seems to be in place, she apoligizes, and I can't catch her at any lies, I can't read her mind.

Warlock, is there EVER a right reason for R at all? If you think logically? I don't think so.


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## Shaggy

You might want to restructure you're financial life to be ready if she does it again. What I mean is have you eggs lined up and ready, and keep them ready.

As for the house work etc - Do not do anything to stop her. She actually needs to step up and work hard - if nothing else it will keep her tired.


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## Chaparral

Good luck, Snap 

Trust but verify


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## snap

So people, I need an advice.

You know that MIL played supportive role in my wife's affair. She has formally apologized in December, but I don't believe in her sincerity for a minute. I don't communicate with her at all ever since.

I made it clear that am not going to tolerate MIL in my home anymore. We live abroad though, so aside from very infrequent trips to our homeland there are not many opportunities for my wife and her mother to meet in person.

What I want is a reality check from non-involved people. Do I overreact? It's not just a case of toxic friend, the b*tch is her mother. Should I allow her in?


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## Chaparral

Someday.......................maybe. What has MIL done to show her remorse? How has wife been behaving?


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## [email protected]

Noooooooo!


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## Will_Kane

You mention at some point that her whole family hates you and believe you to be the spawn of the devil, or something along those lines.

They are likely to be a toxic influence.

Most likely, your wife influenced them against you, way before her most recent affair.

Most likely, if she is in contact with them, she will begin to badmouth you to them again. None of us are perfect, we all have faults, you included, and my guess is that your wife over-emphasized your faults to her family while never mentioning any of your good qualities. This likely went on way before her most recent affair.

It's like when you hear a story, and the story turns out to be incorrect, but when you think about it months later, the incorrect story seems right to you because that's the one you heard first. In her family's minds, you will always be no good.

So, in this case, my answer would be no (then again, I don't think I could have reconciled given what you heard said and your wife's betrayal). Because it's her mother, I don't know how realistic no contact or no visitation would be. If I were in your shoes, I don't think I could conduct myself civilly in front of MIL anyway. If I did allow it, it would be case by case - meaining any time I felt uncomfortable, MIL leaves immediately, no matter what the situation.

It's her mother, you're her husband, which does she choose?


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## snap

chapparal said:


> Someday.......................maybe. What has MIL done to show her remorse? How has wife been behaving?


MIL begged me to take her daughter back after her breakdown and trip to the hospital. She swore she'll never badmouth me again. From their phone conversations the VAR picked up it seems to be the case so far.

Thing is, I don't give a damn. As far as I concerned, I have no mother in law. The damage is too severe to get away with an apology. I can try working it out with my wife (and she is trying her best it seems), but I'd rather skip the burden doing it with her mother.


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## snap

Will_Kane said:


> It's her mother, you're her husband, which does she choose?


All good points Will.

From her family, I'm cordial with her brother. He seems like a decent, hard-working fellow. 

If it were some distant relative or a friend, it would be a no-brainer. I was thinking about *maybe* allowing her mother to come over sometime while I am away on business trips. And definitely not within this year.


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## river rat

Snap, I suspect your wife learned to deceive at the feet of her own mother. Your MIL is seriously defective as a human being. I'd not let her anywhere near my home or my son.


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## morituri

The solution to your MIL is the same as that of a wife who slept with her husband's brother, no contact with the affair partner and affair encourager. This is one of the non-negotiable conditions that must be met if you are truly serious about reconciliation.


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## Unsure in Seattle

The whole situation is toxic, Snap. If your reconciliation is to even have a chance, as much of that cancer as possible needs to be cut out.


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## [email protected]

WHy are you reconciling with your wife?


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## snap

OK, the opinion here is unequivocal and matches mine. That seals it then.

Jayman, there is never a good rational reason for R.


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## Beowulf

snap said:


> So people, I need an advice.
> 
> You know that MIL played supportive role in my wife's affair. She has formally apologized in December, but I don't believe in her sincerity for a minute. I don't communicate with her at all ever since.
> 
> I made it clear that am not going to tolerate MIL in my home anymore. We live abroad though, so aside from very infrequent trips to our homeland there are not many opportunities for my wife and her mother to meet in person.
> 
> What I want is a reality check from non-involved people. Do I overreact? It's not just a case of toxic friend, the b*tch is her mother. Should I allow her in?


She almost broke up your marriage. You let her in when you are out...forever.


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## keko

As long as you affair encouraging MIL is around, your W is still likely to cheat on you.


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## RDL

Who she is is what she does when she thinks nobody is watching.


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## KirkSpock

Snap, long time lurker here who just had to create an account to respond to your thread. I think the very knowledgeable people here have given you excellent and informed advice, but I thought I'd offer you some advice that I haven't seen here yet. 

I get the feeling from your posts that one of the primary motivating factors for R is the well being your child (and in my personal opinion, that's a GOOD reason, although others may not agree with that). You also know that you can't trust this woman. Here is my advice: If this is possible in your country, have a lawyer draw up a post nuptial agreement which spells out what will happen if there is infidelity: sole custody of the child, all assets, etc. That is, make her sign a legal document that will protect your most valuable assets in case she cheats again (and I'm sorry to say, I think that is HIGHLY likely: she didn't know she had to block the users on FB? Uh huh....sure. I have a bridge here in Brooklyn that I have for sale too....). 
While I don't think a post nuptial agreement will magically resurrect your feelings of trust (again, sorry to say I can't see how you could EVER trust this woman again....and I'll take it a step further...if you can't trust her with the simple task of not having sex with other people....how could you EVER trust her with your CHILD? That has me flabbergasted...you cant trust her to keep her legs closed, but can trust her with your child's life and well being...hmmmm), but it might offer some protection if the inevitable eventually happens. If she refuses to sign such a document...well, i think that would be a pretty clear answer to her feelings towards R.
Best of luck to you!

PS: I would be VERY CAUTIOUS at this point....she knows you can get into her computer acct's and she knows you have VAR's....so she is probably using alternate means of communication (such as meeting people in parking lots, using alternate accounts, using connections not in the house, etc.) and is being very mindful of what she says in areas where you could have planted a VAR (and in fact, she might give false information in a room she suspects a VA might be lurking...but will have no problems calling up her male friend/s from a pay phone at a supermarket/disposable phone/AOL instant messenger/public WiFi spots/etc.)
Also, you might WANT to get her an iPhone if you are set on R, because its very easy to (clandestinely or directly) retrieve backed up text messages. Might be a good tool for you, like giving someone rope to hang themselves with (if you get my meaning).


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## dymo

snap said:


> So people, I need an advice.
> 
> You know that MIL played supportive role in my wife's affair. She has formally apologized in December, but I don't believe in her sincerity for a minute. I don't communicate with her at all ever since.
> 
> I made it clear that am not going to tolerate MIL in my home anymore. We live abroad though, so aside from very infrequent trips to our homeland there are not many opportunities for my wife and her mother to meet in person.
> 
> What I want is a reality check from non-involved people. Do I overreact? It's not just a case of toxic friend, the b*tch is her mother. Should I allow her in?


Has anything happened to prompt this line of thinking? Has your mother in law been trying to reach out? Is your wife showing signs of wanting to normalize relations?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CH

Mother vs you. You'll never win in this situation. You can cut her out and your wife will go along for it to make peace with you but in the end she'll be back under mom's control.

That's just my opinion from what I've seen you post. You can R but your MIL will always be in the picture and eventually the whispers start again.

And if you make the wife choose between you and her mother, she might choose you now but in the end she could end up resenting you for cutting her off from her family, double edge sword here. It's a lose/lose situation in the long run.


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## Chaparral

I agree keeping MIL away now but I would make sure they didn't think it was impossible in the future. MIL has been toxic no doubt. But I would leave the future open to change. Doesn't mean you have to. If they see no hope here, you could turn her into a vicious, underhanded enemy.

Love the post nup idea. Some here have said custody issues in a post nup are unenforceable but it doesn't hurt to try. WW probably would not know that. Has your wayward wife read the wayward wife instructions? 

11 posts down on this page

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...sided-need-perspective-please.html#post534068 


Good luck.


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## snap

dymo said:


> Has anything happened to prompt this line of thinking? Has your mother in law been trying to reach out? Is your wife showing signs of wanting to normalize relations?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Nothing to provoke this on their part, but I've been thinking about it for a while. They are not really in NC, they phone and Skype.

On one hand I feel bad about excluding her mother. On the other, I have no desire to meet her whatsoever.


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## snap

Kirk, thanks for your post. Not sure post-nup is practical, since we're citizens of one country residing and owning all the assets in another country. Besides, with the mortgage our debt is bigger than the assets.


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## snap

cheatinghubby, damned if you do, damned if you don't, huh.

Chapparal, a good idea actually with keeping it vague. And yes, she have read that guide already, it was quite helpful.


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## oldmittens

Hi snap i followed your story for awhile now and was hoping for a update. one thats good i hope


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## Jonesey

oldmittens said:


> Hi snap i followed your story for awhile now and was hoping for a update. one thats good i hope


Welcome back. How about you 2 give us a update?
Been wondering how things are with you these days.


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## oldmittens

Jonesey said:


> Welcome back. How about you 2 give us a update?
> Been wondering how things are with you these days.


working on it now


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## Jonesey

oldmittens said:


> working on it now


Thanks.looking forward to hear it.


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## snap

oldmittens said:


> Hi snap i followed your story for awhile now and was hoping for a update. one thats good i hope


Mittens,

Doing OK overall. Still have emotional downs sometimes, but not frequent and not nearly as severe as they were in the beginning.

Wife has promised to never disappoint me, and so far sticks to it. We have never really argued since.. well a long time. She went off the AD prescription some months before, 

I quit smoking again (which I picked back again around D-Day). Gained back some of the weight I lost.. none of that was fat though so I needed it.

Got around to checking the Firefox browser history logs I archived back in November. Went back almost a year from that point, it was a lot of combing through. As you know, the OM is a local (we're expats) so she used Google Translate a lot, and it all sticks in the history. I was able to recreate much of the timeline of the affair. Turns out they didn't do it on my birthday after all: it was 3 days before  It does seem they really were together the four times (wife's official story), with a few hook-ups cancelled because of the OM's travel patterns. So I feel like I have some approximation of truth, in the sense that her timeline and my data match very closely.

The OM is still lurking somewhere, he's now quite invisible for a neighbour. Think I saw a glimpse of him at a mall but he disappeared quick. The police, which he threatened to summon, didn't show up on my doorstep as of yet


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## oldmittens

glad to hear you are doing better.


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## Almostrecovered

Still have toxic MIL living with you?


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## husbandfool

toxic MIL should be banned from your home. 
Life is too short to put up with that nonsense.

When she badmouthed you in the past, it was just her words expressing what she thought of you. It was also very manipulative on her part.
What she thinks will not change, no matter that she stops badmouting you.

Besides ... you married her daughter, not her. You have no obligation to her at all.


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## snap

Almostrecovered said:


> Still have toxic MIL living with you?


No, the time she was here she was on a visit.. not living here thankgod.

As far as I concerned I have no MIL.


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## Almostrecovered

phew!!


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