# I really need to know



## cloud (Nov 27, 2010)

Having enjoyed 20 years with my wife through what we consider a happy marriage, I have unearthed something about which I am unsure and find very confusing, my heart and mind are in conflict and I would really like some views regarding this matter.
My wife owns a Hair Salon and for the past ten years or so has male clients who have been regulars for many years, and many also confide in her which I assume is part of her job, to get to the point here, I recently noticed that she was receiving text messages late at night when we were in bed, anything up to one o'clock in the morning.
At first I ignored this as I am aware that she has a large circle of contacts and messaging is her choice for contact, after a few nights however, I found this late night disturbance annoying and asked my wife who was contacting her at such strange hours, her reply was that it was just a client making or changing an appointment.
I pointed out that it was unacceptable for people to make hair appointments at such silly hours and then for the next few days the messaging stopped (so I thought) it was only when I woke in the middle of the night did I hear the sound of a keypad clicking away, my wife had turned her phone to silent.
At this stage I became uneasy and after mentioning this to my wife she again repeated her story and told me to take a look at her phone, I must admit that when the opportunity arose I could not help myself but to look at her phone and discovered that all the mundane text messages were there, but the ones sent and received during the night had been deleted.
A gut instinct made me think that something was not quite right and I'm ashamed to say that I accessed her on line phone bill and was shocked at what I saw.
For months on end she was sending messages from the minute I had left for work until the early hours, up to 50 text messages a day, I was eating away inside, frightened, shocked, hurt.
I needed answers and it was obvious that she was not telling the whole truth, I spent several days trying to find a way of finding out who the number belonged to, in the end I called it, and my heart thumped as a man answered the phone.
My world came tumbling down and I had no option but to confront her with my knowledge, so we sat down and I asked her who the number belonged to, at first she said she did not recognize the number which is strange considering she was texting it 50 times per day for months on end, and when I told her that I phoned the number and a man answered I could tell that her mind was working overtime trying to find an answer.
The answer was that it was a long term client who was just confiding in her, he was married with children and had confided in her that he was gay, he could not cope with his family or employers finding out etc.
I explained my fears and she agreed to break off further contact but refused to answer any personal questions about this guy, quoting client confidentiality when during the past ten years she had shared with me in private all such information.
Just a week later when I had come down from the bedroom to get a drink I overheard my wife talking to a close friend on the phone discussing how she should perhaps buy a pay as you go phone to keep at her salon to protect her privacy, which I find very disturbing.
Anyway, things settled down and I have tried very hard to get on with our life after she told me that she adores me and would never dream of hurting me, yet the doubt still eats away at me, I find that the slightest thing sets me off looking for more clues, her story just does not seem to add up.
Inside I am hurting because I need to know the truth but my wife tells me I'm being silly and so gets annoyed when I attempt to talk to her about it, resulting in arguments.
Having seen her in action with some of her male clients I know that she is very extrovert, almost attention seeking as she surrounds herself with men who pay her compliments, flirt and some are quite blatant with their remarks, she takes it all in her stride and tells me it's part of her job.
I believe in the law of probability, if it can happen it probably will, but other than the messaging she behaves perfectly normal at home, never out alone etc but then again, she has time during the day, I need to know if she is having some sort of affair but can't get to the bottom of things, I would appreciate an outside view.


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

Cut to the chase my friend your wife is having an affair, do not pretend this is over.

Your wife is going to be the best actress you have ever met, the fact that she wants a pay as you go phone tells you she is going to practice deceit at the highest level. 

The affair is not over I promise you. This is or has gone underground and she is lying to you. 

You find that pay as you go phone and hide it as if it was lost. You snoop and gather more evidence. A voice activated recorder is a wonderful device. Buy one and hide it either in her car or where you think she may make the calls from. 

You move fast, keep a record of the phone calls and text messages. 

Call your immediate family and hers and ask for them to support you in the marriage, let them know that she is having an affair . The excessive call and texting are evidence enough. Is she has not slept with him the terminology is she is in a Emotional Affair. 

Infidelity, Cheating Wives - Women's Infidelity


Furthermore you tell one close friend of hers that she is in an affair and you have evidence thereof, do not disclose what the evidence is.

There is no secrecy in a marriage, if she claims she is helping him she can give you his name and details. She will not do so or make excuses.

Privacy is going to the bathroom, secrecy is deceit. 

You can track down this guy, by whatever means you can. If he is married you must advise his wife as soon as. Do a reverse lookup on the internet, these sites charge you but they will give you his name and addresses.

Since you know the number look at her phone and find the name she has it under, it may ever be a dummy name. 

Call the guys phone at a time when you think he should be at home and you bollock him for having inappropriate contact with your wife. No emotion just a very angry husband , he will lie, he must know you are on to him, she will have already told him and they will have a story. If he persists call his bluff and say sure I will meet with you and your wife and can introduce me. 



A warning for you, many choose to ignore this and when they do decide to act they are to late. 

You may try the following before you tell the family is she gives any answer but a YES then you know the truth. 

The only way this will resolve itself is if your wife agrees to :

No Contact ever with the OM (other man).. a letter from her to him, we will advise you of the content

Full transparency of everything.. you see the text messages, if they have been deleted what a surprise. 

Commits to rebuilding the marriage.. there are a number of steps in this process.


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## DanF (Sep 27, 2010)

Eli-zor nailed it.
My advise exactly.

Also, "client confidentiality" should not extend to the husband of the hair dresser for God's sake! That is the lamest line yet.
She is at the very least very involved in an EA...


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

If your wife is having an affair “The guys gay” is an absolute classic way of diverting attention. It’s a classic deceit.

And if your wife is having an affair you will not get honesty from her, so don’t expect it. Instead of honesty you will get deceits (for example “he’s gay!”) and lies.

Rather trust your gut, look for “hard evidence of an affair” without letting your W know what you are doing. Should only take a week or so. Then you will know if your gut is telling you the truth or not.

This is Man's Private Business. Treat it as such and don't go broadcasting it everywhere. Take that advice and your marriage has very little chance of recovery in the medium and long term.

Bob


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

> This is Man's Private Business. Treat it as such and don't go broadcasting it everywhere. Take that advice and your marriage has very little chance of recovery in the medium and long term.


I am lost here AFEH, the process I am following is the one Dr. Harley recommends. If I am "cloud" he will now be confused as to what to do.

So what does he do if he must not disclose/expose or whatever terminology one choses to tell family his wife is messing around. 

I can accept a delay in telling the family however, the stream of text messages should suffice to tell some, thereafter he can then get the hard evidence including copies of the text messages . 

???

Cloud you must always carry on snooping and gathering hard evidence, especially the detail on the OM, track him down. He must have made contact with her initially somehow.


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## cloud (Nov 27, 2010)

Thanks guys, I'm sure I must be going through some sort of denial thing! I can't understand how she can be so "normal" with me, swearing everlasting love for me and all that, behaving as though nothing has happened. Making long term plans for our future etc, don't have a clue.


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

> I can't understand how she can be so "normal" with me, swearing everlasting love for me and all that, behaving as though nothing has happened. Making long term plans for our future etc, don't have a clue.


Cloud in an affair they become professional at deception, accept this. I have seen letters where they say they will take the secret of the affair to their death bed. They even agree this with each other. 

Do not be fooled by her responses or behavior in any way. 

Start a journal and keep a record of what you are doing and when. 

The process I am following is to take away the secrecy of the affair, affairs thrive because they are secret. 

*Hard evidence especially the content of the text messages or a recording of the conversations will be the deal breaker*. So dig dig dig. check if the text messages can be recovered from the phone, sometimes they can.

Does she use the PC, if so get a key logger, buy one, they may be exchanging mails.

If push comes to shove hire a PI and ask them to track the OM down and observe her.

Are you US based, I can send you info on the links to use to reverse check the number.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Eli-Zor said:


> I am lost here AFEH, the process I am following is the one Dr. Harley recommends. If I am "cloud" he will now be confused as to what to do.
> 
> So what does he do if he must not disclose/expose or whatever terminology one choses to tell family his wife is messing around.
> 
> ...



Eli-Zor, it’s not just the process that’s important. It’s the “application of the process” that is so important. And the application of the process is open to interpretation by everyone who applies it. Even the best “process” in unskilled, amateur hands can do a terrific amount of irreparable damage.

That being said I do not agree at all with the “process” you expound here no matter who you reference. I have not seen here one successful application of that process. Not one, no matter what “spin” anyone puts on it. For goodness sake get real and look at the threads where the process has been applied and “see and understand” for yourself.

A wife’s affair is a Man’s Private Business and it should be handled as such. Sure a Man will seek advice, opinions and options in an anonymous way such as Cloud is doing. But in his real world it is his Private Business.


I seriously do not agree with your “naming and shaming” approach. For multiple reasons.

Bob


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

Go to the MB site an see how very effective this is.. sorry cloud I will no longer jack your thread..


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

Assuming you are US based try the following identity trackers: ----though South Coast could be the English South coast. 

People Search | Yellow Pages | White Pages | Reverse Phone Lookup

Free People Search | WhitePages

This one has the reverse phone lookup. You may need to pay for the service.

Free People Search | WhitePages


Keylogger software..

Computer and Internet Monitoring Software

Keylogger | Remote Computer Monitoring Software With Keyloggers | Web Watcher Now


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Eli-Zor said:


> Go to the MB site an see how very effective this is.. sorry cloud I will no longer jack your thread..


They agree with "Naming and Shaming" as well.

I don't agree with Naming and Shaming. For me it is a Man's Private Business.

Bob


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

cloud said:


> Thanks guys, I'm sure I must be going through some sort of denial thing! I can't understand how she can be so "normal" with me, swearing everlasting love for me and all that, behaving as though nothing has happened. Making long term plans for our future etc, don't have a clue.


Cloud, if your wife is having an affair then you have been deluded about your relationship with your wife. You’ve been believing things that are not real or true. It’s not “self delusion”, it is delusion by another person. In this case by your wife “if” she is having an affair.

Now you don’t want to accept this, which is exceptionally understandable. In a way your are “denying the delusion”. Which again is exceptionally understandable. It is a natural, healthy reaction to the new circumstances you find yourself in.

The only way you are going to resolve the delusion and denial is through hard evidence. Circumstantial evidence doesn’t cut the mustard.

Bob


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

This sucks to say but, welcome to our world. Get evidence,go on line, and you will not be "silly" any more.
I once was crazy, but the pictures of my WS made me very sane.


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## jamesa (Oct 22, 2010)

I have to agree with Eli-zor on this one. Drag this critter into the light for all to see. Once her friends and family see what is going on it will make it seem less glamorous and exciting and more seedy. 

There is no guarantee it will stop it, but it is your best shot.


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

Start doing some intensive reading.

Go to the following:

MB site:----

Articles

Affairecare site:----

Articles

Both sites give you a good background and a set of steps to follow..


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

jamesa said:


> I have to agree with Eli-zor on this one. Drag this critter into the light for all to see. Once her friends and family see what is going on it will make it seem less glamorous and exciting and more seedy.
> 
> There is no guarantee it will stop it, but it is your best shot.


That “critter” as you call her is his wife of 20 years.

What if someone had told your wife what was going on with your employee and dragged the “critter” out into the open? If I remember right you had enough problems as it was.

Bob


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## jamesa (Oct 22, 2010)

AFEH said:


> That “critter” as you call her is his wife of 20 years.


No, it's the affair.



AFEH said:


> If I remember right you had enough problems as it was.


No, right as rain now thanks Bob.


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## Atholk (Jul 25, 2009)

Just saying that it looks pretty bad too. Dig into it.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

jamesa said:


> No, it's the affair.
> 
> 
> 
> No, right as rain now thanks Bob.


But what if instead of one employee you had ten. And one of those ten was friends with your wife and had seen the interaction between you and your employee and told your wife that you were having at least an emotional affair. I reckon you would have been in a whole different ball game if that were the case.

That’s what I mean by it’s a Man’s Business. Once this stuff gets out everybody involved will have their own opinions and beliefs and I can only image it creates an exceptionally more difficult situation to resolve and many more problems are piled up on the original problem.

Bob


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## jamesa (Oct 22, 2010)

I don't want to hijack your thread by getting into a game of table tennis with Bob. 

My firm belief is that an affair seems very exciting, intoxicating even, until you are made aware of the damage that it is doing to the people around you, not only your partner but all who know and love you as a couple. 

Most sane people disapprove of extra-marital affairs so hopefully those that care for her will make their feelings known and this will encourage her to give up on the fantasy. I don't say this lightly, I truly believe that this is the best way to go. 

If you don't want to expose her completely could you not go to a trusted friend or family member who could talk to her?


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## laurelanne (Nov 29, 2010)

So sad, hate to hear it, but it's nothing unusual in today's world; it's happening all the time. Get smart real fast.

She probably does love you, but as things progress in the world of temptation she has now indulged in, well...we become the prisoner more and more of whatever master we serve. She's in deep...and who can say...maybe 1 man, maybe there have been more, maybe she likes the attention of many, any number of possibilities.

It's very hard almost impossible for the person who has strayed into the allurements and passions of ingidelity to pull themselves out...and logic is Not more powerful than driving emotions/desires/passions etc...

Early on the cheater still realizes they love you....over time decpetion takes over their "thoughts" and they can convince themselves (because of the powers driving them) that "things really have not been right at home"....and this is an inner psychic attempt to deal with the guilt...then next..sin does not having a stopping point...it comes to own you and drive you until it accomplishes it's final goal...utter destruction and death of everything. 

Don't wait...but lay it on right now! Let her know you love her but...the day you learn that she has actually ahd sex with someone else...even though you love her....it will be over...you will have to leave. This will shake her foundation "more" than any kind of reasoning, pleading, talking etc...!! She Needs to "See" how the consequences will truly have Greater Weight than continuing to play with fire...which has now got her consumed like a prisoner.

Realize the Reality! Your Conscious is NOT lying to you. The numerous subtle hints are Real! She can still be saved and pulled out but it's going to take some very serious effort. Been there...through many fires...I know where she's at...the powers that have a grip on her...and how "you" can play around for a couple years being too gentle....until you "learn" how real and how deep seated this already is....and by then things will be much worse.

Don't waste time asking God to help you and intervene...and become a stern father real quick! If you want to keep her. Lay the laws down..it's You or her playing around. Even if you don't mean it...this is necessary in order to shake her to Reality!!!

As the others said she will keep on "trying" to keep on and deceiving you to the last nail! Let her know right now that you "know" these signs are Very REal and positively indicate far more than what you are seeing! Don't Believe any excuses...women can be very crafty and convincing....even while truly in truth she does love you...

Don't be afraid to become a strict father...cover every corner! And when she tries to make you feel guilty about not trusting ehr or giving her space...tell her you can't afford to! And don't! She earned it...and now you have no choice but to watch her every single move. Either that or surrender the fight and the marriage...you do have a choice...and she probably is worth it.


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## cloud (Nov 27, 2010)

After extensive digging (I've been a right detective!) it seems that my fears were unnecessary (for now) nevertheless the seed has been planted and it seems unfair that I should now have to continuously be on my guard. Because I made contact with the third party and involved close friends, my wife will no doubt now be on full alert (if anything has been going on)
Thank you for your replies which offered a good insight into the matter


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## Nekko (Oct 13, 2009)

You know, a guy called and SMS'd me repeatedly in the middle of the night. He was a buddy of mine from an online game. He was sort of rude and childish so he had no idea that regular people don't do that sort of thing, at night, especially when they're married. Since he worked evenings, he'd call or sms when he got home. He did that 2,3 times. My husband was naturally freaked out to the point where he started boding with a female from work over this, thinking i was cheating. 

I was NOT. i wasn't even interested in the guy. I merely didn't know how to be rude and explain he shouldn't call at night (might be stupid...but oh well). My point is, while some people cheat, that's not always the case and sometimes things look fishy when they aren't. I don't know how this applies to your situation but i felt the need to share my own experience. Maybe it helps. I've been with my husband for 9 years and never strayed.


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## cloud (Nov 27, 2010)

Nekko said:


> You know, a guy called and SMS'd me repeatedly in the middle of the night. He was a buddy of mine from an online game. He was sort of rude and childish so he had no idea that regular people don't do that sort of thing, at night, especially when they're married. Since he worked evenings, he'd call or sms when he got home. He did that 2,3 times. My husband was naturally freaked out to the point where he started boding with a female from work over this, thinking i was cheating.
> 
> I was NOT. i wasn't even interested in the guy. I merely didn't know how to be rude and explain he shouldn't call at night (might be stupid...but oh well). My point is, while some people cheat, that's not always the case and sometimes things look fishy when they aren't. I don't know how this applies to your situation but i felt the need to share my own experience. Maybe it helps. I've been with my husband for 9 years and never strayed.


I get your point, and fully understand where you are coming from, however, if this were the case with my wife she would not have disguised and distorted facts, or entered his contact details on her phone as a female person.
Had she offered an explanation as you have just done I would have not have felt my trust being abused


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## F-102 (Sep 15, 2010)

My fear, while reading this, was not that she would hook up with this guy, (he may very well have been gay), my fear is that after talking with him for so long, the wife would "wake up" and start thinking that life with you was not so great, that she was missing out on a whole better world, and she would begin thinking that "yeah, maybe I could do better", or "So many guys still find me attractive and desirable, I want to be a born-again swinging single".


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## Twistedheart (May 17, 2010)

AFEH said:


> This is Man's Private Business. Treat it as such and don't go broadcasting it everywhere. Take that advice and your marriage has very little chance of recovery in the medium and long term.
> 
> Bob



You say this like it is FACT for everyone. You could not be more WRONG. I do believe it is personality dependant, though. This was the single best thing I could have done. Exploiting and "spreading my man's business" around is why my wife and I are surviving after her PA and the reason I am not divorced and "sharing" my children! 

I will say that yes there are a few couples that have shied away from us socially, but the funny thing is that the wife and I were never really close to them in the first place. The ones we truly call friends are still there and have expressed how they envy the way we've (i've) handled the situation. Of course noone from the family has "disowned" us, either.

Let's face it, these things are few and far between and, as far as I know, I knew noone that has ever experienced what I went through. You never know how people are going to act until it is time to MAN UP. Which is what I consider my actions to be, manning up! I acted off of impulse, and a little advice from here. Affairs seem to bring the best and worse out of people and sometimes even make you a better person, couple.

If your marriage can not survive a little humiliation, it was probably never meant to be anyway. My wife and I consider a little humiliation better than divorce, any day of the week. And good people will realize that anyone can make a mistake. Just as long as it isn't a habitual mistake.

Sorry to derail. Read my story below.


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## jamesa (Oct 22, 2010)

Twistedheart said:


> You say this like it is FACT for everyone. You could not be more WRONG. I do believe it is personality dependant, though. This was the single best thing I could have done. Exploiting and "spreading my man's business" around is why my wife and I are surviving after her PA and the reason I am not divorced and "sharing" my children!


It's a generational thing Twisted. Bob is old school _and_ British. Stiff upper lip and all that.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

jamesa said:


> It's a generational thing Twisted. Bob is old school _and_ British. Stiff upper lip and all that.


James you get most things wrong, especially when you attempt to speak on my behalf. Problem with you is you are not man enough to admit it and give out apologies when you are.

Take this thread for example. If Cloud had taken your advice and …



jamesa said:


> I have to agree with Eli-zor on this one. Drag this critter into the light for all to see. Once her friends and family see what is going on it will make it seem less glamorous and exciting and more seedy.
> 
> There is no guarantee it will stop it, but it is your best shot.


… he would be in a very different situation now.

Bob


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Twistedheart said:


> You say this like it is FACT for everyone. You could not be more WRONG. I do believe it is personality dependant, though. This was the single best thing I could have done. Exploiting and "spreading my man's business" around is why my wife and I are surviving after her PA and the reason I am not divorced and "sharing" my children!
> 
> I will say that yes there are a few couples that have shied away from us socially, but the funny thing is that the wife and I were never really close to them in the first place. The ones we truly call friends are still there and have expressed how they envy the way we've (i've) handled the situation. Of course noone from the family has "disowned" us, either.
> 
> ...


I've ignored that outburst.


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## land2634 (Jun 7, 2010)

I'll have to disagree with AFEH (Bob) here. He knows from reading my thread that I have applied the very same plan to my wife's affair that has been presented here and he is critical of. What he me not realize however, is that my wife and I are back to spending time together. While it isn't clear yet where everything is headed, it is clear that there has been some great improvement. Just a thought.


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## jamesa (Oct 22, 2010)

AFEH said:


> James you get most things wrong, especially when you attempt to speak on my behalf. Problem with you is you are not man enough to admit it and give out apologies when you are.


No offence intended Bob, to me both 'old school' and 'British' are positive. I apologise if you found either offensive.

Insulting my manhood is uncalled for, but I forgive you anyway, because I am 'man enough' not to give a ****.


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## Twistedheart (May 17, 2010)

AFEH said:


> I've ignored that outburst.


Good deal, Bob. Let's hope the majority here do the same for your outburts and bad advice.

It is too bad I got caught off guard by your trolling. Lesson learned by me. Good day to you.


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## jamesa (Oct 22, 2010)

It is sad when someone comes on to the forum with a genuine need and some people are intent on using the thread to score points against others. 

This is a serious issue and while there is certainly a place for debate and humour we should try and focus on the person who needs help. 

I was determined to stay out of the silly bickering that hijacked this thread but I didn't manage it. I am sorry Cloud. 

I hope all continues to go well for you.


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## Toby T (Dec 1, 2010)

Exactly Jamesa, Let's help this guy. Everyone has good intentions, and ideas, let Cloud determine the most appropriate advice.

My initial take was that the "evidence" did not sound very solid. Very suspicious, yes. I would say gather further intelligence covertly, do not tip your hand, as that can only lead to going further underground. 

Cloud- Keep your eyes open. Yes now she will be on full alert. Confrontation without rock solid evidence, in my opinion, is very damaging. Just let it blow over, don't get caught snooping.

Does she, in addition to talk of future plans, etc. show the normal affection to you? Has any of that changed since this started?

My wife accused me numerous times, totally wrong, without any cause, and simultaneously stopped all affection. I felt like I had been tried, convicted and punished without doing the crime.

I became suspicious of her projecting this on me to alleviate her own guilt of something. I have no evidence, many suspicions, but I'm not sure I want to know at this point. I hope we are both wrong.


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## cloud (Nov 27, 2010)

jamesa said:


> It is sad when someone comes on to the forum with a genuine need and some people are intent on using the thread to score points against others.
> 
> This is a serious issue and while there is certainly a place for debate and humour we should try and focus on the person who needs help.
> 
> ...


Thank you Jamesa, there really is no need to apologize! I like to regard myself as intelligent enough to make decisions based on what I think is best. visiting this Forum was intended to find some views and opinions which may enable me to look at things from a different angle (which it has) any debating among posters on this thread though interesting, does not affect my decision making


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## cloud (Nov 27, 2010)

Toby T said:


> Exactly Jamesa, Let's help this guy. Everyone has good intentions, and ideas, let Cloud determine the most appropriate advice.
> 
> My initial take was that the "evidence" did not sound very solid. Very suspicious, yes. I would say gather further intelligence covertly, do not tip your hand, as that can only lead to going further underground.
> 
> ...


I am fortunate enough to be able to say that her affection shown toward me never changed, everything appears to be normal (whatever normal is) which leads me to believe that either my suspicions were ill conceived from the start, or that something did momentarily go wrong but is now over.
It may be possible that I misinterpreted her intentions (though not her behaviour) nobody ever claimed that marriage would be easy, I do however, think that no matter how close and loyal a couple are to each other, there will always be a little secret somewhere.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Really? 50 texts a day, getting a secret phone? All just a misunderstanding? Right....


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## cloud (Nov 27, 2010)

turnera said:


> Really? 50 texts a day, getting a secret phone? All just a misunderstanding? Right....


My wife admits that her behaviour was unreasonable and unacceptable, and as such she has gone to great lengths not to convince me, but to prove her innocents and that her intentions were never to jeopardize our relationship.
Having spoken with all concerned, I can conclude that my wife did not have a physical or emotional affair, (I doubt that the ins and outs of my conclusions are of any interest to anybody) and at the end of the day, if you can't trust your wife, who can you trust?


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## hurtbyher (Nov 19, 2009)

turnera said:


> Really? 50 texts a day, getting a secret phone? All just a misunderstanding? Right....


:iagree:
Wake up Cloud... Your wife is an amazing actress. You can only trust one pearson on this earth. Yourself. Trust your gut man. You might not have found anything NOW. Keep an open mind and an eye on her. You have to have the proof to get her to admit it happened. Hard fact truth. You can not stop it till she is caught and SHE decides to stop. My guess is she will be back to her ways in a little time.
I truely do wish you the best of luck.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

If she has nothing to hide, then she should have no problem understanding your concern and WANTING to rectify that concern by showing you her phone any time you ask to see it. Her NEW SECRET phone, I mean.


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## cloud (Nov 27, 2010)

turnera said:


> If she has nothing to hide, then she should have no problem understanding your concern and WANTING to rectify that concern by showing you her phone any time you ask to see it. Her NEW SECRET phone, I mean.


She does understand my concerns, that is why the matter has been resolved. She did all I asked of her and more, and I trust her, why? because I have no reason not to.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Did you ask to look at her secret phone?


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

Cloud I think you are far to naive ...Your marriage is worth a lot more than that..


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## cloud (Nov 27, 2010)

Eli-Zor said:


> Cloud I think you are far to naive ...Your marriage is worth a lot more than that..


I am many things, naive is not one of them, I have been married for 20 years and have been together with my wife for 34 years, it is because I know her so well that I suspected infidelity.
My suspicions were unfounded and she proved that to me, why then should I persecute her? and why do you think that I am naive because I continue to love and trust the bedrock of my life?


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## cloud (Nov 27, 2010)

turnera said:


> Did you ask to look at her secret phone?


Fortunatley there is no secret phone.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

cloud said:


> Fortunatley there is no secret phone.


And you know that...how?

Because you asked her and she said no?

What about this:


> Just a week later when I had come down from the bedroom to get a drink I overheard my wife talking to a close friend on the phone discussing how she should perhaps buy a pay as you go phone to keep at her salon to protect her privacy, which I find very disturbing.


Have you been to her salon to see if there's one there?

I just don't understand your logic. You ask her, she denies, so you say 'Oh, ok, I was worried, but now I'm not, since you SAY you're not cheating'?

Do you expect a cheater to tell you the truth?


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## Wolf359 (Jun 10, 2010)

turnera said:


> If she has nothing to hide, then she should have no problem understanding your concern and WANTING to rectify that concern by showing you her phone any time you ask to see it. Her NEW SECRET phone, I mean.




:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:





You have got to get your bal*s back from her, you are far to trusting when there could be a affair going on. ( It's your life, your family maybe in jeopardy as you know it) Just sit back a look at all the details. If you think we are all blowing smoke up something, I'm sorry, we were all trying to help you. Just stop and lesson to your gut. If I was faced with this, I would be very careful not to talk with her just yet. I would do a bit of investigation over a period of a month or so. Give it more time, read more on this board, please. It will help more then just this one problem.


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## Atholk (Jul 25, 2009)

GPS tag her car if you have any further doubt.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

cloud said:


> My wife admits that her behaviour was unreasonable and unacceptable, and as such she has gone to great lengths not to convince me, but to prove her innocents and that her intentions were never to jeopardize our relationship.
> Having spoken with all concerned, I can conclude that my wife did not have a physical or emotional affair, (I doubt that the ins and outs of my conclusions are of any interest to anybody) and *at the end of the day, if you can't trust your wife, who can you trust?*





> I am many things, naive is not one of them, I have been married for 20 years and have been together with my wife for 34 years, it is because I know her so well that I suspected infidelity.
> My suspicions were unfounded and she proved that to me, why then should I persecute her? and *why do you think that I am naive because I continue to love and trust the bedrock of my life?*


Cloud~

I'm afraid that as people respond to you, it may sound to you as if we are attacking you and forcing you to believe that your wife had an affair. I hope you don't mind but I would like to reassure you that although some folks do come across here pretty strong, it's not that we want to force you to believe anything...nor do we want to convince you that what is not happening, is happening! In the end, I think every single person who has posted and is posting here would like to do one thing: make sure that you aren't denying something that is taking place right under your nose. 

I'm sure that part of you thinks: "I've been with her for 34 years and married for 20+ years! I KNOW this woman! She is honest and trustworthy, can not lie to save her own life, and would never think of being as deceptive as you guys are suggesting. We communicate. I asked her if she has feelings for this guy, and she looked me in the eye and said no. And she went out of her way to show me that her intention was a good one that got out of hand." Right? Something along that line?

Yet take some time and read people's stories here. There are hundreds and hundreds of threads and couples here who have been married for 10, 15, 20...even 30 years! And suddenly one day one spouse says to the other "I love you but I'm not in love with you. I want to separate." And the loyal spouse says "WHAT?"  From there, the loyal spouse tries to ask the disloyal if they want a divorce, is there someone else, etc. and they expect the disloyal to reply as the fairly rational, honest person they've been for the past 10, 15, or 20 years...BUT THEY DON'T! When a person is disloyal, it's weird; they almost all follow a bit of a script! And the loyal almost always gets spun around and confused by the disloyal looking like their spouse and sounding honest and looking them in the eye--and then finding that within MOMENTS the disloyal called the other person, told the OP they loved them, made plans for the future with the OP, and then has cyber sex or phone sex with them!  

So Cloud, we are not trying to force an affair where there is none. We are just saying that we've seen this many, many times--the loyal spouse thinking "Oh she just doesn't have a dishonest bone in her body" and the disloyal spouse lying right to their face. 

There are a few things in your story that do raise a redflag of caution to me. 50 texts a day plus a $500 phone bill? That is a lot of talking/chatting and I'm just curious--does she text YOU 50 times a day and during that same time rack up $500 of chatting with you on the phone? I work at home and sit next to my Dear Hubby and I don't think I talk to him that much!  When she married you, she did volunteer to forsake all others and give you 100% of her affection and loyalty--so if she's texting any other man for any reason 50 times a day and texting you fewer than 50...then she's not giving you 100% is she? 

Now...she may have gotten carried away with a guy from work and now she realizes it was out of hand and too much. Let's assume that's the case. Since you've brought it up, has she been transparent to you, allowing you to see her phone, her bill, her laptop or PC, her email, etc? I let my Dear Hubby see any time any day he wants because we share everything! He can see ALL of me! Can you see all of her, or does she have certain parts that are hidden and "secret" and if you look she's mad that you invaded her "privacy"? You tell me...is that 100% of her affection and loyalty then, or is she being more loyal to whomever she is hiding? Who is she protecting, them or you? 

In your comments I underlined the part where you say "...that her intentions were never to jeopardize our relationship." Have you ever heard of or read the book "Not Just Friends" by Peggy Glass? In this book, Dr. Glass explains that most affairs start off with no intention whatsoever to end the marriage and lead to divorce. The vast majority of affairs begin as "just friends" at work and the two spend time together talking, laughing, having fun and enjoying each other. So just because she has no intention to jeopardize the marriage doesn't mean that it won't do damage! It just means she didn't mean for it to happen! 

Lastly in your own comments you say "...if you can't trust your wife, who can you trust?" and "...why do you think that I am naive because I continue to love and trust the bedrock of my life?" Actually those two statements alone raise one last, big red flag of caution to me. With both statements you indicate that in your world your wife is a foundation upon which you've built all the rest of your world. Do you think maybe it's possible that you're avoiding seeing what's there because if you DO see what's there, the whole bedrock of your world will break, crack, and be shaken to the core? Could it be that rather than looking unblinkingly at the reality that 50 texts a day -plus- a $500 phone is not behavior that is faithful to you...that it's easier to blink, pretend the 50 texts and $500 phone bill "just stopped", and say that you trust her because "she wouldn't lie to you"? 

Here's my thought. Rather than dismissing the possibility, just be honest with yourself and any hard facts you can see. For now, promises are just air and worth little or nothing...but if you see facts, if she's open to letting you look at her phone, email or laptop, if she'd be happy to see you drop in at an unexpected time (when she used to be texting this other fellow)--then trust FACTS and ACTIONS. A person is trustworthy when their words match their actions. When she says she'll be HERE and she's actually there...when she promises to do THIS and actually does it. That is when she really is telling the truth. If she's hiding, secretive, not really where she says she's going to be, etc...then even if she looks you in the eye, swears on her Grandmother and cries--then you know that it's not true. 

Okay? Be wise in your determination and don't be afraid of the truth, whatever it may be.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

cloud said:


> Fortunatley there is no secret phone.



Cloud, you wouldn’t know if there was a SECRET phone. That’s the point people are trying to make. The fact a secret phone’s been mentioned is a massive red flag in and of itself.

I went through my marriage never “double checking” my suspicions. It was a very big mistake I made. Now I just think on these things as “due diligence”.


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## F-102 (Sep 15, 2010)

Cloud, it's almost like a good murder mystery: the guilty party is always, ALWAYS, the one you least suspect.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Here’s probably a most extreme case of this “lying”.

I’ve just discovered that my stbx of 37 years has put her hand on the bible twice in two lawyers offices wrt to an affidavit in order to get something she wants. It’s an offence where she can be committed to jail for at least 2 months to a max of 2 years or get an unlimited fine. And I ask myself the question “If she can do that stuff, she would have no problems whatsoever in telling me lies etc.”.

And yet I find I’m STILL trying to make excuses for her in my head and I STILL consider putting my hand out to help get out from the situation she has created for herself.

I just don’t “know” the woman I was in love with for 42 years!!!


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Well I know now people do that stuff. My stbx’s brother first at an inquest and now my stbx.

I couldn’t do it. Why? Not because I fear whatever God there is although that is there in a background way. I couldn’t and wouldn’t do it because I value my personal credibility and integrity so very much. And I couldn’t stand the thought of people calling me a liar. I don’t understand how people can handle others not trusting their “word”.

I told my stbx I no longer trusted her. I thought her response would be to rebuild that trust. But no. She said if the trust is gone then there’s no point in going on. I couldn’t understand that at first but now I know why. It was simply that she could no longer get away with in the future what she got away with in the past.


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## F-102 (Sep 15, 2010)

Say, Cloud-here's a two part question:

Do you both share the housework?

And if you do who does the laundry?

I know, you're probably thinking WTF?!?!
But answer the question, and I'll explain later.


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## thoughts2words (Dec 13, 2010)

what is stbx?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

soon to be ex wife/husband


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

RWB said:


> After I found out... I just wanted the truth. Just stop with the lies. Did she stop. Nope, but now I see through her lies.
> 
> She even did the old "Hand-on the Bible Lie".
> 
> Talk about being desperate. Cheating and Lying are a nasty partnership.


I agree 100%

My wife put her hand on the Bible her dad had given her and swore she was not going out to cheat. She was having sex within the hour with that jerk she cheated with.


Stupid me thought the swearing on a Bible meant something to her.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

michzz said:


> I agree 100%
> 
> My wife put her hand on the Bible her dad had given her and swore she was not going out to cheat. She was having sex within the hour with that jerk she cheated with.
> 
> ...


They should put both hands on the Bible, so you can see if they have their fingures crossed.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

AFEH said:


> They should put both hands on the Bible, so you can see if they have their fingures crossed.


That would be funny if I didn't live it.


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## Tiredspouse0297 (Dec 9, 2010)

My thoughts: If my spouse told my family and all of our friends I was having an affair that would be the end of all contact with him. It's a private matter so I agree with Bob. I've been on both sides of the fence and not everyone who has an affair is looking for someone to put the blame on or playing games. Sometimes a marriage has been bad for a long time and in the end loneliness and low self-esteem lead people to cheat. It's not pretty but it happens. 
Twenty years is a long time to be married and throw it away on a fling. I'm glad you're giving your wife the benefit of the doubt. No marriage will survive if it's based on constant suspicion and distrust. Of course you should be aware if things change or strange behavior pops up again but I think you've made the right decision for now. Good Luck!


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## cloud (Nov 27, 2010)

F-102 said:


> Say, Cloud-here's a two part question:
> 
> Do you both share the housework?
> 
> ...


There is no need for me to check her underware because she isn't participating in sex with anybody


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## cloud (Nov 27, 2010)

turnera said:


> And you know that...how?
> 
> Because you asked her and she said no?
> 
> ...



My wife stated that the man I suspected of having an affair with her was gay, without her knowledge I dug deep into this guy and I discovered that he was gay, I know this because I spoke to his unsuspecting lover.
I hid a voice recorder in her car and through the conversations which I heard between my wife and numerous people, I concluded that she was not being unfaithfull.
No doubt, no lies, no acting, no persuation from her, solid and logical evidence gathered by myself without her knowledge.
And one final observation, I am not a fool.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

That is good news. Now you know what to work on next (her honesty).
I hope that your marraige is fufilling, and you can reconnect with her. Will she ever understand that having secrets is not health? I hope your marraige opens up and her behaviors change. 

You should be her best friend not some gay guy, good luck


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## F-102 (Sep 15, 2010)

Okay, cloud-you knew what I was looking for, and now I will say that she is faithful.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Ok, so what are you doing to become the one person she wants to spend 50 texts a day on?


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## jamesa (Oct 22, 2010)

cloud said:


> My wife stated that the man I suspected of having an affair with her was gay, without her knowledge I dug deep into this guy and I discovered that he was gay, I know this because I spoke to his unsuspecting lover.
> I hid a voice recorder in her car and through the conversations which I heard between my wife and numerous people, I concluded that she was not being unfaithfull.
> No doubt, no lies, no acting, no persuation from her, solid and logical evidence gathered by myself without her knowledge.
> And one final observation, I am not a fool.


Good on you cloud, hope it all works out. Like Ronald Reagan said about the Soviet Union ''Trust, but verify''.


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## cloud (Nov 27, 2010)

turnera said:


> Ok, so what are you doing to become the one person she wants to spend 50 texts a day on?


Those 50 texts per day went to a guy with problems far greater than the ones I currently have, and because I am now aware of the situation everything is out in the open.
I really don't have the time to acknowledge 50 texts per day, I used to receive a lot more until I asked her to stop, the only texts I receive on a daily base contain just three words ..... I Love you.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Not really what I meant. She was getting something from helping him. Just like I get something from coming on here and helping others. If my husband was more available and made me feel good and I couldn't wait to be around him, I'd never open my computer.

What are you doing to look at your life together to see where you can change things so she can't wait to be with you?

Have you looked at the questionnaires on marriagebuilders.com or affaircare.com? You could both fill them out and learn a LOT about each other so you can stop Love Busting (harming) your spouse and so you can start being the only one meeting your spouse's Emotional Needs (like the ones she was getting filled by helping this guy out instead of filled by you).


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## jenaa (Dec 3, 2010)

Turnera,

What are you doing to improve your own marriage? It doesn't sound like it's good. Maybe you should be asking for help right now, instead of giving it.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

NICE!!!!

WTF is that all about. Hellow, person with 3 post needs to be around more to really get it.

turnera, I respect you and you 4,729 post, so Im sure you seen this before.

Soor for the rant, it ............ never mind.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

the guy said:


> NICE!!!!
> 
> WTF is that all about. Hellow, person with 3 post needs to be around more to really get it.
> 
> ...




Personally I think it a very valid question. If I recall correctly Tunera's been "planning" on leaving her husband for the past 20 years, even saving up to do so.


Having recently discovered my wife was doing the same although not for as long I’m left feeling somewhat used and abused.

It’s not a personal attack Tunera. Just a total lack of understanding as to why my wife stayed with me and hence why you are staying with your husband. If my wife had ever been graceful enough to be honest and open with me about her emotions as far as I’m concerned we would either have got our problems fixed or our marriage would have ended a lot sooner.


Bob
Sorry about the hijack


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## jenaa (Dec 3, 2010)

the guy said:


> NICE!!!!
> 
> WTF is that all about. Hellow, person with 3 post needs to be around more to really get it.
> 
> ...


I haven't posted a lot, but I have read enough to get it. Are you saying the more someone calls people out, the less they should be called out? Turnera's quite blunt herself. I have wondered if she takes such a hard line with others due to a feeling of personal powerlessness to fix her own relationship.


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## jamesa (Oct 22, 2010)

jenaa said:


> I haven't posted a lot, but I have read enough to get it. Are you saying the more someone calls people out, the less they should be called out? Turnera's quite blunt herself. I have wondered if she takes such a hard line with others due to a feeling of personal powerlessness to fix her own relationship.


Your issue with Turnera is your issue, hijacking a thread to attack someone is bad form. 

Why not chill a little and try and help people instead of attacking? It makes you feel a lot better and you might avoid getting banned, like I did.


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## jenaa (Dec 3, 2010)

jamesa said:


> Your issue with Turnera is your issue, hijacking a thread to attack someone is bad form.
> 
> Why not chill a little and try and help people instead of attacking? It makes you feel a lot better and you might avoid getting banned, like I did.


Yeah, I'm not worried about getting banned. I didn't mean it as an attack, just a sincere question and thing for her to consider. I think she's extremely smart and honest, and will consider it, and either decide it's helpful or does not apply.

Cloud probably doesn't mind. He's all good now.


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## jamesa (Oct 22, 2010)

jenaa said:


> Yeah, I'm not worried about getting banned. I didn't mean it as an attack, just a sincere question and thing for her to consider. I think she's extremely smart and honest, and will consider it, and either decide it's helpful or does not apply.
> 
> Cloud probably doesn't mind. He's all good now.


She seems pretty tough anyway and as you say cloud is on cloud nine.


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## cloud (Nov 27, 2010)

turnera said:


> Not really what I meant. She was getting something from helping him. Just like I get something from coming on here and helping others. If my husband was more available and made me feel good and I couldn't wait to be around him, I'd never open my computer.
> 
> What are you doing to look at your life together to see where you can change things so she can't wait to be with you?
> 
> Have you looked at the questionnaires on marriagebuilders.com or affaircare.com? You could both fill them out and learn a LOT about each other so you can stop Love Busting (harming) your spouse and so you can start being the only one meeting your spouse's Emotional Needs (like the ones she was getting filled by helping this guy out instead of filled by you).


I visited this site regarding an issue I had concerning my fears about my wife seeing another man, these issues were resolved.
other than that one issue, our marriage is stable, we love and adore each other and will grow old together as was intended when we first met.
Together we have weathered many storms, we are too much "into" each other to allow something like this to be anything but a glitch in our lives, my wife has learned as much from this as I have, we certainly did not survive the past 34 years by filling in questionnaires about emotional needs.
We pine for each other when we are seperated, we often don't need words to express ourselves because we can speak with our hearts and minds. I have messed up so many times in my life and my wife has always picked up the pieces, we are there for each other as one, I look at my life every day, and each day passes into the next knowing that we love each other.
Having resolved my problems I could have chosen not to post further comments on here, however, I am intrigued by the many different attitudes each reply to my Thread initiates, who knows, perhaps one day I may even be able to offer someone some advice of my own.


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## jamesa (Oct 22, 2010)

cloud said:


> I am intrigued by the many different attitudes each reply to my Thread initiates, who knows, perhaps one day I may even be able to offer someone some advice of my own.


Everyone's opinion counts cloud. I don't believe that you have to be a victim of infidelity (as far as I know I haven't been) to offer advice and express your opinion.


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## cloud (Nov 27, 2010)

the guy said:


> NICE!!!!
> 
> WTF is that all about. Hellow, person with 3 post needs to be around more to really get it.
> 
> ...



I really don't think that the number of posts is relative to a persons opinion regarding a matter


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## cloud (Nov 27, 2010)

jamesa said:


> Your issue with Turnera is your issue, hijacking a thread to attack someone is bad form.
> 
> Why not chill a little and try and help people instead of attacking? It makes you feel a lot better and you might avoid getting banned, like I did.


Gosh! give the woman a break! she didn't hijack or attack anything, ban her for what exactly? freedom of speech?


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## jamesa (Oct 22, 2010)

cloud said:


> Gosh! give the woman a break! she didn't hijack or attack anything, ban her for what exactly? freedom of speech?


We are all good. I got banned and feel it is my duty to draw people away from the dark side in order to do penance for my sins.


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## cloud (Nov 27, 2010)

jamesa said:


> We are all good. I got banned and feel it is my duty to draw people away from the dark side in order to do penance for my sins.


That depends on how dark you went! there is a dark side to everyone


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

lol. Actually, I was trying to point out to cloud that, no matter what you THINK is going on with your wife, her ACTIONS more clearly express how she feels than her words. See it here all the time. You may wish to think that your marriage is stable, wonderful, full of pining and what not, but in reality, your wife took a beeline to help another person and then dealt with it dishonestly to avoid any issues with you. Take it as you wish. 

You approach your marriage based on your baggage.

Your wife approaches your marriage based on HER baggage. 

And the level of honesty involved determines the ultimate outcome.

You say you have an amazing marriage where you have no need for filling out questionnaires.

Ok...I wish you luck.


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## Joanie (Oct 24, 2010)

I just find the entire thing odd. I am a person who really likes to help friends in need but to sneak around, lie to my spouse and talk about a secret pay as you go phone is crazy! No way in Hell would I risk the trust of my partner to help a "friend" who is having problems. I'm sorry Cloud but I just don't "buy" your wife's explanation of things. Believe what you want but I think you should still be on your toes.


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## Wolf359 (Jun 10, 2010)

Joanie said:


> I just find the entire thing odd. I am a person who really likes to help friends in need but to sneak around, lie to my spouse and talk about a secret pay as you go phone is crazy! No way in Hell would I risk the trust of my partner to help a "friend" who is having problems. I'm sorry Cloud but I just don't "buy" your wife's explanation of things. Believe what you want but I think you should still be on your toes.



:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Joanie said:


> I just find the entire thing odd. I am a person who really likes to help friends in need but to sneak around, lie to my spouse and talk about a secret pay as you go phone is crazy! No way in Hell would I risk the trust of my partner to help a "friend" who is having problems. I'm sorry Cloud but I just don't "buy" your wife's explanation of things. Believe what you want but I think you should still be on your toes.



Don't get much more on your toes than bugging a car. Unless truly paranoid.


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## F-102 (Sep 15, 2010)

I notice a bit of a habit with you, Cloud: you seem, to me at least, to be more than ready to bend over backwards to make excuses for everyone else (I'm talking about that "hijack" post), and I'm wondering if your W hasn't been taking advantage of this. You tell us that she is 110% legit and doing nothing wrong, but it seems that the only evidence you have to support this is what she tells you. That "secret" phone is a red flag. And now that it's not a secret anymore, she has probably, IF SHE IS REALLY CHEATING, found another mode of communication.


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## cloud (Nov 27, 2010)

AFEH said:


> Don't get much more on your toes than bugging a car. Unless truly paranoid.


Hip hip!!!!!!!! nice that out of the blue comes a little sense, I guess that people didn't understand that the conversation which took place in the "bugged" car were the ultimate proof of innocents.
My marriage is sound and secure, the only issue now is my wifes honesty regarding the situation, and as I see it, lying about something is not the same as having an affair.
Considering that my Thread was about my fears regarding my wife having an affair, I find it all a little bizarre that people are not the least interested in the final outcome but continue to read between the lines.
I have read some wise words here but also some pretty amateurish attempts at psychology, and some people even making statements regarding elements that never even appeared in any of my posts.
Where does it end? analyzing my wife because she visits a certain Supermarket regularly on certain days, or perhaps seek some counseling because I feel that we have a happy marriage despite a little hitch?
I don't understand all of the negativity aimed at my marriage, my wife misjudged her actions, I reacted with mistrust, situation resolved with no need to tell me that I have it all wrong because she is having an affair.
I can only assume that within the bigger picture of things I need serious help because my wife and I are deeply in love with each other even though she f***ed up on this occasion, we often talk about what happened and why it happened, and how it will not happen again, the best person to heal my wounds in the end was my wife, isn't that how it's supposed to be?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Sure, if that's all there is to it. Some of us are offering you an opinion based on dealing with hundreds of other people who we've seen come to such forums who go along one path, while they can possibly be improving things or in fact may be missing things. That's all I was trying to say.

There is a LOT of information available in the world today to help couples learn and grow and have the most complete life together possible. 

If you assume you're already there, then I wish you well.


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## cloud (Nov 27, 2010)

turnera said:


> Sure, if that's all there is to it. Some of us are offering you an opinion based on dealing with hundreds of other people who we've seen come to such forums who go along one path, while they can possibly be improving things or in fact may be missing things. That's all I was trying to say.
> 
> There is a LOT of information available in the world today to help couples learn and grow and have the most complete life together possible.
> 
> If you assume you're already there, then I wish you well.



That's fine if a person is that way inclined, information is not the same as an opinion based on personal experience, I have taken from this Forum what I wanted and it has in no way influenced my view of my marriage.
I am sure however that there are many people who may find the answers that they seek here, I for one, believe that life cannot be copied from a book


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## jamesa (Oct 22, 2010)

You are not giving us what we want cloud! We want an affair. Ok? None of this happy ending bollocks! 

Seriously guys, sometimes there is genuinely nothing there. Let's let it go.


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