# Low day



## Mucc (Oct 13, 2015)

I am just having a bit of a low day and venting. 

I am almost at the end of my one year separation and I can't wait to file because then it will mean end of this chapter of my life. 

Sometimes when I am having low days though, I try to "make sense" of it all. The funny part is - the logical part of my brain KNOWS that I will never make any sense of it all. 

I never understood why my relationship went from a whirlwind romance, a proposal in Paris, to you are the biggest b**** on planet earth. You cry too much. You don't chop the green peppers right. You shouldn't hug male friends. You don't call my mom enough. You don't integrate into my family etc etc etc. 

What I seriously fail to understand is - why/how our arguments escalated so much. Like we were both very highly educated people. you would think all those years in international universities gave us some wisdom to solve our own problems. I just don't understand what he gained from this process. What did injecting his mother into each argument achieve? What was to be gained from phone calls going to my parents from his mother after each fight? I mean who even does that? We were not 18. It ruined all relationships involved. And eventually all the bitterness ended up ruining a marriage within 1 year. I mean what did he achieve? 

He is separated. He moved back to his hometown and had to move back in with his brother, sister-in-law, mom, dad and nephews and nieces after having lived independently in a different city for many years. But of course, its their house. Maybe he does feel happier there. I just don't understand what you gain from destroying your own relationship. I doubt his sister-in-law gives him the priority that I gave him as my husband. 

I honestly keep going back over and over again to figure out what I did that turned a switch in a different direction. I just can't figure it out. It's so frustrating. Apparently, my expectations were too high. 

Ugh, okay I am just rambling now. Just needed to get it off my chest today. I know no one has answers or solutions to this crazy thing called life...


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## BioFury (Jul 9, 2015)

Universities don't teach people common sense, or how to be a decent person. Or anything useful really.

I can sympathize. It does make one wander what went wrong, and if all the trouble could have been avoided somehow. I take it he doesn't want to fix the marriage?


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## Mucc (Oct 13, 2015)

Yea, you are right. Universities do not teach you how to be human. Sigh, it is just that the rationale part of my brain wants a logical flow of events. 

It kills me because I wasn't 'young and naive'. I KNEW marriage was hard work. And I worked HARD. I can't figure out what more I could have done/given without compromising my values as an individual. I thought we had sat down and chatted about our values and ideals going forward into the marriage as adults. What else does one do? 

I have nothing to blame but my lack of judgment? Ugh


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

He sounds like he has major issues and with control.
Maybe he couldn't cut the apron strings, I mean who gets their mother involved in their adult relationship, it is bizarre.

Are you from another culture?


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## Mucc (Oct 13, 2015)

BioFury said:


> I take it he doesn't want to fix the marriage?


There is no fixing the marriage. I wouldn't go back to him even if he paid me to do so. 

The last time I had a conversation with him face to face - He said he wanted "heal both our hurt" etc. (This was 2 days after he had asked for divorce). He then launched into a long drawn conversation - the details of which are a blurr because he sort of used to say the same spiel after every fight. Anyway I conveyed to him that he is disrespectful and condescending when he speaks. At that point - he proceeded to call his mother and stated that anything else I wanted to say about the marriage would have to be while his mother was on speaker. I decided I wasn't married to his mother, so I said nothing more. He shut the bedroom door and locked himself that night. I went to work the next morning, when I came back - he had packed his bags and was gone - completely changed cities. That was the end of any conversation about marriage. This was back in early April. I haven't seen him since then. 

I have had two correspondence with him since - One via his realtor, letting me know that he is selling the house and that I need to move out (this was shortly after he left) and second time he emailed to tell me not to make any holes in his wall as I move out. 

I cannot ever go back to the marriage because I couldn't forgive him for saying nasty things about my parents, or telling me I make no sense because English is my second language, or for hypothesizing that my previous relationships prior to him must have failed because how crazy and borderline I am, or for saying "the dent in your head must be the reason you are crazy", or for asking me to go back to my ex boyfriends etc etc. Some words, you say, you cannot take back. It scars your relationship forever. And although I understand that people say hurtful things when emotions run high, some of these hurtful statements were repeats from a previous fight, so he was aware that they were cruel things to say to someone. When someone takes your insecurities, innocent information about you and turns them into cruel/mean things during a fight, you lose respect for them. I couldn't go back to someone who belittled me constantly to his mother.


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## Mucc (Oct 13, 2015)

aine said:


> He sounds like he has major issues and with control.
> Maybe he couldn't cut the apron strings, I mean who gets their mother involved in their adult relationship, it is bizarre.
> 
> Are you from another culture?


It IS bizarre. Even for my culture where family is more involved sometimes. For example, I might go to my parents for advice regarding something, but my parents would never call my SO or for heaven's sake their family to "complain" about the behaviour that upset me. 

It made NO sense to me or my parents. I cut him a lot of slack because he lost his job 4 months before the wedding and struggled with finding employment for the rest of the time we were married - I thought some of his outbursts were results of his job struggles. He would constantly tell me how I do not understand him because I have a job and I have the reason to go out of the house everyday and meet other people. I tried to give him company ALL the time. Whenever I wasn't at work, I came home to give him company. But maybe I truly didn't understand what he expected from me...I dont know.


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## Síocháin (Mar 11, 2016)

I understand how you feel. I don't know what my STBXH told his family but after 20 plus years I have heard NOTHING from any of them. They showed me who they are and I believe them. 

I'm sorry you are hurting but it does get better. I have been separated for about 5 months now. I wouldn't take mine back either. When I reflect on what I was put through, it just makes me cringe. 

Are you in counselling? I am and it helps. I don't want to repeat this type of relationship again....ever.


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## tailrider3 (Oct 22, 2016)

hmmm...words are just words remember. I get you that you can't take them back and that they can ring in your head forever but they are just words. Actions are really the voice of the heart.

I get you with two intelligent folks not being able to solve their own issues. Reflecting on my own life, we both hold advanced degrees but once you get caught up in emotions I feel it is easy to lose control and get into a nasty cycle. Unfortunately something just needed to happen for you to step back and see how you both got caught up in it and your reactions fed off of one another. Let me guess, the arguments would just build and get worse each time as they continued to feed off of the last? 

Personally, if words are the worst offense I think you could reconcile if you want to. Yeah, people say stuff all the time, and even more behind your back probably, but at the end of the day life is too short and actions mean everything.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*"Thinking" prior to uttering such nasty and unsettling thoughts to your partner would definitely be a step in the right direction!

IMHO, cognitive thought and communication is a sure sign of emotional maturity!*


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

Education does not necessarily relate to maturity... learned in life is so much more difficult because it is not scripted.

Being right is sometimes more important that being... bringing in family to settle your differences is a "go nuclear" option when all other controls in arguments have failed and over time it whittles away the respect because the intimate privacy needed to be open with trust, forgive, and heal is taken away, leaving growth in our relationships stunted.

It may be a healthy enough relationship in his connection with family for him alone, but unless he can detach from relying on their involvement and reattach to relying on your marriage on a mutual respect level, you may not find any progress to repair things. For that, he would have to release his insecurities that have built over a lifetime in many ways. 

Whirlwinds are fast moving and often full of debris unseen until they pass... absent acceptances tend to be expectations unsaid, it sounds like there were many things not communicated in your time together as you moved quickly. Words as weapons in anger show more than we often care to show of our ugly side. When someone uses them with us, realize the intent is to direct the problem away from where the true struggle lies... within themselves.

Since he will not communicate directly to you, the path from here is yours, especially since it sounds as if you have made your choice not to continue. As frustrating as today is, take another step toward tomorrow's peace... it will come.


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## bluezone (Jan 7, 2012)

Mucc said:


> There is no fixing the marriage. I wouldn't go back to him even if he paid me to do so.
> 
> The last time I had a conversation with him face to face - He said he wanted "heal both our hurt" etc. (This was 2 days after he had asked for divorce). He then launched into a long drawn conversation - the details of which are a blurr because he sort of used to say the same spiel after every fight. Anyway I conveyed to him that he is disrespectful and condescending when he speaks. At that point - he proceeded to call his mother and stated that anything else I wanted to say about the marriage would have to be while his mother was on speaker.


OP, you did the right thing. Your H putting his mother on speakerphone when the two of you are having an argument is childish and ridiculous. Is he not adult enough to settle his problems himself? Is he going to put his mom on speakerphone if he has to deal with a lawyer, or the police?

It sounds like he criticized you constantly. Let him go find some other person who lives up to his unrealistic ideals. No one should have to tolerate disrespect or condescending attitudes in a relationship. Oh and I just reread your post. So his mother also called YOUR PARENTS after you guys fought. OMG. Doesn't sound like there is anything you could have done differently. *HE* put the kibosh on this marriage.


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## sixty-eight (Oct 2, 2015)

Whirlwind romance, proposal in Paris, devaluation in the honeymoon phase.
Covert aggressive behavior, unhealthy attachment to mother, using your own words/insecurities against you in arguments to "win".

Maybe check out this article about covert narcissism and see if your ex has any more of these patterns and characteristics https://luckyottershaven.com/2015/05/21/how-to-recognize-a-covert-narcissist/


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

He married you when on the Island of Endorphin. 

You don't remember being married there? He was "there"; you were in the rock solid Chapel. 

Endorphin has a half life of six months for most newlyweds. It depends on one's "Elimination Rate".

His rate is very short, as is his temper...his temp-her. 

Once his "spell" ended, he eliminated you. He married you on that high. Highs always go downhill.....later.

His family, The Munsters did not like you from the start. Your normal quirks would not open the family stone cold vault. You hair cut reflected back in their mirror. You were alive, flesh and blood.

They are moribund, zombies with a crooked smile and slanted outlook.

His family "outed" you. 

Thank your Lucky Stars. 

They demanded that he return home to the hotel, "The Hotel California".


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Mucc said:


> I never understood why my relationship went from a whirlwind romance, a proposal in Paris, to you are the biggest b**** on planet earth. You cry too much. You don't chop the green peppers right. You shouldn't hug male friends. You don't call my mom enough. You don't integrate into my family etc etc etc.


Sounds like a lot of your love was based on the emotional high of the newness of the relationship. That is only the first stage of love and the most basic part of marriage. You need to have the stronger stage that involves intense bonding. It is not as emotional but it is kind of like how concrete hardens. Here is the thing when you are in that early euphoric stage you miss a lot of signs so maybe he was just a jerk, at the very least you didn't fit well as far a living your life together. Marriage is way more then just dating in Paris, it's washing each others underwear, and smelling there morning breath too. You have to love deep enough to even love that. It's taking care of each-other when you are sick, working together to build a family. You need to look for a life partner, not just the most romantic guy around. Romance is nice but really if you know how to do it, it's easy. Living with someone who is grumpy at times and pushes your last nerve and not just telling them to F off, is much harder. 

Also never marry someone for what they do for you, only marry them for what you want to do for them. If you feel the same way you will have a good marriage. Maybe this guy just didn't have it in him. Doesn't mean someone else won't. Work on your emotional intelligence, and pick someone who also has that. That will make it easier, but the biggest factor in success in marriage is picking the right person. The biggest factor in picking the right person is picking someone with character. When you are pissed as hell at your spouse and don't want to have to change, but have character enough to think about it from your spouses position. Then actually get that maybe you are not all knowing. When you realize THAT and are willing to eat crow and change. That is character and that is what it takes to have a good marriage. 

You may have been educated (which sounds condescending by the way) but you didn't educate yourself on what is important in picking a mate. Collage doesn't teach you that. You have to do that yourself so you make a better choice next time.

I have to laugh, you must be young. Universities don't teach wisdom, they only teach knowledge. Come back to me in 20 years and let me know how much wisdom you got from your school.


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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

Mucc said:


> I am just having a bit of a low day and venting.
> 
> I am almost at the end of my one year separation and I can't wait to file because then it will mean end of this chapter of my life.
> 
> ...


The answers are there for you, obvious even. The problem is lack of acceptance.

Have you ever wondered why you have to argue, at all? You believe and participate in a connection destroying romantic system. Reality doesn't have to make sense. However, reality imposes consequences whether or not you understand it.

Too high expectations? Again, I disagree. You could have so much more than you expected, as long as you didn't expect endless infatuation. What could be realized is cooperative problem solving. These aren't myths. These aren't conditional (only) upon finding mr or Mrs right.

What to Do? Start by conforming to reality and then the process of it making sense will come. For instance, our minds cannot understand quantum mechanics, but we have research that dispits results, no matter how confounding and contradictory to relativity, etc. It is.In relationships, there are things you have to do and hings that must not be done to maintain connection.

You can come here for advice. You can go earn a PhD in Psychology and still come forth with these questions. But what all need to do is form the emotional competencies that engender positive life outcomes. Raw logic is going to get few people very far in life. It can even be counterproductive, in certain instances.

You don't need to know that 2+2=4, analagously, but how to get to that result. Also, you have to learn to easily get to that result no matter what emotional environment is encountered. 

I'm here to tell you that the answers and understAnding are out there. With this comes the peace of mind you so desperately desire. This is good news.

Best,
RT


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

You had two things going against you. First, you married one of those 'enveloped' people - enveloped into his family, without whom he can't survive and whom he expects to be daily parts of his life. HE can't fathom someone who is NOT like that; so he expected you to turn into that type of person. And blamed you when you didn't.

Second, you married a controller. A person who survives by manipulating people to push them around to his way of thinking and doing through guilt, blame, anger, and irrationality. This book might help you understand: Why Does He Do That?: Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men by Lundy Bancroft, Paperback | Barnes & Noble®


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## Mucc (Oct 13, 2015)

Thank you all for your opinions and chiming in. 

For those of you that think I should leave, I have. I have no intention of going back ever. Maybe I should have left long ago. But again hindsight is 20/20. 

Those that think he was controlling, you maybe right. I will never know. But how could an entire family be narcissistic right? Maybe I over read everything. They used to say that "their family solves problems together". They are more "open" with their issues unlike my family. The odd thing is though we had a conversation during our dates where he specifically told me that having lived independently for many years he makes his own decisions. Who knew that wasn't true. 

For those that think I looked for the most romantic person, I didn't. I looked for someone who was an adult, had a job, valued education like I do, etc. Now the way I judged these things could have been wrong. I tend to believe people at face value. I may never do that again. But I did know that the honeymoon period wouldn't last forever. I did do the laundry and the day to day grind. But essentially all the things people say made me stay longer. So when he was sick and I made him soup and he yelled at me because the soup wasn't warm enough - I attributed that to "trials and tribulations" of marriage and tried harder. When he criticized me for not chopping the onions right, or getting the right can of beans, I attributed that to -oh we are just learning to live together and I tried harder to make it work. He and his family tried to "spoil me" when he was in a good mood. He bought me expensive things. I unfortunately didn't care much for material things and conveyed that it doesn't make me feel loved. But they interpreted that as me being unappreciative. And yes I suggested marriage counselling early into our problems. By the time he got around to agreeing too much had been said and divorce had been threatened by him too many times. 

Maybe I had a higher self esteem than he anticipated. Maybe I am more stubborn than I think. The curious thing is, he didn't have to marry me. There are many many girls out there that would have been okay with meeting his expectations. 

And for the person who spoke of acceptance, that is something I struggle with on some days. Particularly on my low days. I'm working on it though


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## pattyreed2011 (Nov 28, 2016)

You sound like a reasonable person. In other words, maybe he was the problem. I'd like to suggest for you to read about personality disorders. That might help you make sense out of this and give closure to this chapter of your life.

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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Hi MUCC,

You are right not to go back into the marriage, he would have eventually destroyed your self esteem and who you are.
That level of lack of boundaries in a family is not normal. Yes, some families share information and help one another out as a sounding board but do not get directly involved in a couples ups and downs, sounds like he and the mother are inseperable and noone can match up to her.

Get yourself some IC to help you work through whatever issues you have, 
see a lawyer and file for divorce.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Mucc said:


> Thank you all for your opinions and chiming in.
> 
> For those of you that think I should leave, I have. I have no intention of going back ever. Maybe I should have left long ago. But again hindsight is 20/20.
> 
> ...


What is is cultural background? Eastern cultures are primarily based on family, collective, western are primarily individualistic. It's possible his point of view, which is about 75% of the planet when you get married you are expected to assimilate into the family. That is very much how it works.


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## Mucc (Oct 13, 2015)

Thank you for the support everyone. 

I like to think I'm sort of reasonable but because that was questioned by my ex and his family, I worry that maybe I missed something. I also worry that I look at everything from my biased point of view and therefore overlooked what I did. My ex would comment on how disrespectful I am. Of course I have my flaws. I even told him when we were dating that I can be stubborn at times. 

I know all about personality disorders. I'm a physician. And I tend to think that we all have some traits of narcissism, myself included. In fact some of it is healthy. But of course, whether he has it to an abnormal level, I can't quite say ethically because I'm obviously biased. 

We are both from eastern cultures and I understand that our families are more involved. Perhaps our definition of what "integration" into family meant was different. Except....we talked about it, so I thought he and I were on the same page. And therefore, I felt slightly bullied with the whole - I am going to tell my mother all the anguish you cause me on a daily basis. I felt like my own partner was demeaning me and when I conveyed that to him he repeatedly told me I was too sensitive and his mother had every right to be involved in her child'/ wellbeing. The whole family claimed that is how families solve issues. 


It's hard because I have never encountered anyone in my life (including ex boyfriends) who was belittling. I mean you have differences with people. You either find common ground or you agree to disagree. 

I have been in counselling for a year and it has helped. I guess I just sometimes fall into the trap of revisiting old memories. I guess I should be thankful for the wonderful family I do have. 

Sigh, it would be nice if I was able to close the chapter and fast forward time.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Mucc said:


> Perhaps our definition of what "integration" into family meant was different. Except....we talked about it, so I thought he and I were on the same page. And therefore, I felt slightly bullied with the whole - I am going to tell my mother all the anguish you cause me on a daily basis. I felt like my own partner was demeaning me and when I conveyed that to him he repeatedly told me I was too sensitive and his mother had every right to be involved in her child'/ wellbeing. The whole family claimed that is how families solve issues.


Like I said, you married into an 'enveloped' family. They will never change. HE might change, but only if YOU changed and started protecting yourself with boundaries and consequences. 

Example "You're too sensitive, I'm going to tell my mother everything that goes on in our marriage"

You: "Well, I guess you're going to run out of stuff pretty quickly then to talk about because I didn't marry your mother, and if you insist on including her, you'll be doing it alone."

I'm telling you this because it's a fair bet that you attracted that type of guy and you may end up with another one.


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## Mucc (Oct 13, 2015)

Yea, I didn't recognize how intertwined they were as a family until after the wedding when all the "expectations changed" - according to him. 

We lived in a different city than his family and only visited his family on weekend every 2-3 months prior to the wedding. During those visits, there was no overpowering family traits, I could identify. We discussed how involved his family is in his relationships and he said he doesn't discuss his relationship status with his family unless it's serious. I guess in my naivety I assume don't that to be independent decision making. 

Boundaries were made clear to him by myself and by my parents when they were called. It was reiterated to him and his family that their "methods" aren't working in our marriage. He would sometimes stop for a month or two after a particularly nasty fight but then would go right back to it. So of course we barely lasted a year because I was tired of him threatening to end the marriage with each fight and asking me to pack my bags. The back and forth really stressed me out and it was like a roller coaster that I couldn't get off until I left for good. 

I'm a fairly independent and successful girl, and I tend to draw boundaries. It is baffling how I let them violate some of them in an effort to try harder - because I believed that we were just trying to adjust to each other's lifestyle. I'm so gun shy that the next time someone calls their mother and I'm probably walking away (it's an exaggeration but it is scary)


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## pattyreed2011 (Nov 28, 2016)

What did the mother gain with this divorce? Could it be something that you're not aware it exists? 

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## Mucc (Oct 13, 2015)

No idea if him, his mother or the rest of the family gained anything from the divorce. It's not like they ever had any objections to the marriage on the first place. 

Of course I'm yet to file and according to my lawyer, there isn't that much to claim from me since I don't have assets/property and we were only together for a year. But who knows what can transpire. I trust no one anymore after my experience with this family. They have shown disregard for general human politeness throughout this ordeal and been petty (like they threw out stuff that had sentimental value for me before I went back to pick up stuff from the house). So I expect them to create drama. 

Is there something else they gained? I guess I can't see what? Mind you we have no common friends, because he wasn't very social and we never built a social circle in the one year. So we essentially have no idea what the other person is doing/upto. All I know is that he sold the house he had bought when we got married and moved back to where his family lives. we don't even live in the same city.


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## pattyreed2011 (Nov 28, 2016)

Ok so they wanted him living with them but why?

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## pattyreed2011 (Nov 28, 2016)

Did they get a financial benefit from the sale of the house? 

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## Mucc (Oct 13, 2015)

pattyreed2011 said:


> Ok so they wanted him living with them but why?
> 
> Sent from my LGMS330 using Tapatalk




I just figure it's the usual - how all mothers want their kids living near them. But he already had been working in the city we met in for 5 years prior to us meeting. And I was going to shortly move to that city for a 5 year training (I made him aware that once I move to that city, I am stuck for 5 years until my training is complete). 

But then he lost his job soon after our engagement. He also decided to buy a very expensive (Over 700k $$) house soon after our engagement and before loss of his job. I was hesitant to buy the house because we weren't married/ hadn't figured out our joint finances/weren't living together at this time. I didn't particularly like the house either and said we should wait. But his family wanted everything "set" by the time we were married. And since they decided to put a chunk down for the downpayment, he and his family decided to buy the house anyway (He bought it with his brother I later found out). But since I didn't pay for the downpayment/couldn't afford the mortgage anyway, who was I to say anything about what his family was buying. Plus they told me they were doing all of it for ME, so I wouldn't have to live in a rental place after the wedding (although I didn't quite see a problem with that, I could have lived in a one bedroom rental apartment) but they INSISTED we have everything set up before wedding. Anyway he was very upset that I wasn't being a supportive fiance, so I let it go and didn't bother with the rest of the house purchase. 

A couple of months after that he lost his job and around this time our problems began. I sort of attributed it to financial stress and with the wedding only 3 months away at this point, I thought that was adding to the stress. So I tried to minimize conflict but when we did disagree it was that whole ordeal with his mother getting involved and then getting my parents involved. My parents are happy to give advice but kept insisting that we solve our own problems and advised his mother to stay out of it too. All efforts from my parents were in vain. Now I guess one could argue that I should have walked away during those episodes, but like I said - I attributed a lot of it to his stress, adjusting to living together and just general pre-wedding stress. I therefore tried to work harder on finding common ground. In hindsight, it obviously was not working. 

Did they have financial gain from the sale of the house? I don't know for sure because I was not involved in any transaction of the sale of the house. Because he had bought the house with his brother, legally he does not need my approval to sell the house. But given that the market had fallen since the house was bought, and that he sold it less than 2 years after purchase during a low market, I would guess they would have incurred some losses. How much...I am not sure.


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

Mucc said:


> I never understood why my relationship went from a whirlwind romance, a proposal in Paris, to you are the biggest b**** on planet earth. You cry too much. You don't chop the green peppers right. You shouldn't hug male friends. You don't call my mom enough. You don't integrate into my family etc etc etc.
> 
> What I seriously fail to understand is - why/how our arguments escalated so much. Like we were both very highly educated people. you would think all those years in international universities gave us some wisdom to solve our own problems. I just don't understand what he gained from this process.


Education is generally backwards in most places. It should be called conditioning. Just recently dropped an Economics paper because all through the material there was the expectation that the student adopt, without critique/critical analysis, their worldview. Then it would be explained later, in terms of that worldview, why the assumptions are correct. In science this is actually known as circular reasoning. It sales it is known as a "con job".


Relevance to your OP and the quoted material?
You'll see a common theme in most of my posts that highlights the dissonance between "public expectation" and "private reality".
Clearly, your partner (and likely yourself) had a whole bunch of unspoken expectations - basically a secret unspoken agenda. Many of these would not have been deliberately examined and likely to just be assumed that your partner would comply with these unquantified unexamined targets. ...just like "education", you think you're going to learn something (public expectation), but really you're just expected to obey and conform to their expectations (private reality). they tell you that you're learning things, but do you actually know how to examine the basic fundamentals to prove them? Or would you find yourself falling on to the conditioning you've been given to explain your worldview.

eg in my case I needed my partner to communicate with my parents because my family has a group of centralised Trust funds collectively worth more than a few million dollars. It is the inherited expectation that each generation will establish their own, with a kickstart from their parents. These funds act as guarantors for childrens borrowing, and bridging finance for those loans in times of trouble (eg redundancy), and even for startup loans - there are rules; such as each loan must be financially viable, there is no provision for consumables or lifestyle, or even for things like total education funding (it will cover a few papers or certifications in emergency, as a loan). Connecting into such a family requires learning some of the business and finance rules, and proving that as a potential partner and future principal, that a person has to be able to get along with others, communicate openly and fully, and participate in shared goals. Learning to navigate the mother-in-law is essential in such families .... something my ex-partner just couldn't grasp (for my ex, everything was about her - her words said "family" but her actions said "I'm the central Mum")


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## pattyreed2011 (Nov 28, 2016)

Why do you think he allowed all of this to happen if it's leading to a divorce? 

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## Mucc (Oct 13, 2015)

pattyreed2011 said:


> Why do you think he allowed all of this to happen if it's leading to a divorce?
> 
> Sent from my LGMS330 using Tapatalk


umm... my best guess - Is that he truly believes that I am arrogant, stubborn and hard headed. He believes that if I say - your mother has no business in my student loans acquired prior to the marriage, then I am disrespecting her. If I say - you are belittling me by complaining to your mother about me - then I am over reacting and being sensitive. 

He truly believes that somehow, if I didn't call his family once a week then I am not interested in maintaining relationships with them. That my main motive is to isolate him from his family. They (Him and his family) were worried that if we had kids, I would have more influence on them because I would teach them my mother tongue and he wouldn't be able to (because he doesn't speak his mother tongue well) and somehow I would control the kids. 

He also truly believes that his mother has a wealth of knowledge and wisdom and can solve all problems. According to him she "saved" his brother's marriage in early days by solving their problems and now they are married for 15 years. So their "way" of having mum involved in everything must be right. 

They also believe that your family is supposed to critique you at all times, particularly as partners. For example - if his mother said - I should do X, and I didnt feel comfortable doing X and i said to him - I don't like it when such and such family member pushes their opinion of X on me. That would make him very upset, because to him family members give you constructive criticism and I wasn't capable of handling that. 

I mean...its not really clear. In general he just stated that I was not very supportive of him. If I said he was being mean during a fight, he would say I am mean and so on and so forth. It was all very confusing because he never really gave me a clear reason. But essentially said something like how I was unsupportive and didn't take life's challenges in its strides...


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## pattyreed2011 (Nov 28, 2016)

I know you mentioned that from the beginning but it doesn't seem like that's enough reason for this marriage to end.

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## Mucc (Oct 13, 2015)

pattyreed2011 said:


> I know you mentioned that from the beginning but it doesn't seem like that's enough reason for this marriage to end.
> 
> Sent from my LGMS330 using Tapatalk


I wish I had a better answer. 

Maybe him being unemployed throughout our marriage was also getting to him. He was having trouble finding jobs in the same city and the couple he found he couldn't continue (1 of them he didn't like very much, so he switched to the other one and didn't get along very well with his superiors). Since, I was still finishing my training, I couldn't move cities. Meanwhile, I didn't make enough to pay mortgage for that expensive house. He felt I wasn't supportive of his career. But I was just sad that he would have to move to a different city just to pay for this huge house (which I conveyed to him). 

I just got tired because every time we fought, I recieved a phone call from his mother or my parents received ones. Eventually my parents got tired of hearing complaints, so that ruined the relationship between the two families. He cut off relationship mostly with my family except for special occassions because my parents told him to stop coming to them with our marriage issues and to solve it between us. He would sometimes threaten divorce but then say he doesn't mean it. He would sometimes apologize for not putting our marital needs above his family needs and I would try to fix things again. 

I think my last straw was when he called me crazy and said the bump on my head must have "f***ed me up". I think that kind of belittling made me lose respect for him. Because the story about the bump on my head was an innocent childhood story I had told him when we were dating. After that point when he asked me to pack up and leave the house, I decided to leave. And when I told him I would speak to a lawyer before any further communication, he just said terrible things about my mother, that I could never forgive him for. And I told him that.

Whether his reasons for the divorce are as unclear as he made them to me or just better defined in his head, I do not know.


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## Mucc (Oct 13, 2015)

But of course, the lack of clarity doesn't help during my low days. 

On days I think more clearly, I recognize that I couldn't get him to respect my boundaries even when I communicated them clearly to him. And I couldn't stay with a partner who belittles me in front of his OWN family instead of proudly standing by me. 

He probably will never see it the way I do. And that is the unfortunate reality of my situation. 

I hope over time, I am able to heal and trust again.


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## pattyreed2011 (Nov 28, 2016)

Mucc said:


> But of course, the lack of clarity doesn't help during my low days.
> 
> On days I think more clearly, I recognize that I couldn't get him to respect my boundaries even when I communicated them clearly to him. And I couldn't stay with a partner who belittles me in front of his OWN family instead of proudly standing by me.
> 
> ...


With time the memory will fade...

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## Mucc (Oct 13, 2015)

I am heading to see my extended family in South Asia in January. I am going there to attend a cousin's wedding. 

I am extremely anxious about the whole thing. When I booked my tickets, I thought it would be a great way to see my extended family again. But now that it's getting closer I am getting cold feet. The last time my entire family was together was at my wedding, this is the first family wedding I will be attending since my own marriage fell apart and also my wedding anniversary is around the same time. 

So all in all I am pretty nervous that I am going to have a massive melt down. 

Tips/advice on how to keep my shyte together?


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## bluezone (Jan 7, 2012)

Mucc said:


> But of course, the lack of clarity doesn't help during my low days.
> 
> On days I think more clearly, I recognize that I couldn't get him to respect my boundaries even when I communicated them clearly to him. And I couldn't stay with a partner who belittles me in front of his OWN family instead of proudly standing by me.
> 
> ...


MUCC...as I read through your last few posts...I kept hearing over and over how your H repeatedly said "you don't support me...you don't support me...blah blah blah". When in fact....*HE didn't support YOU at all in this marriage*. Everything was your fault...you didn't integrate with his family, you disrespected his mom, you didn't cut peppers or whatever properly. WHEN DID he EVER support YOU or stick up for YOU?? THAT is the reason that you walked away. He was slowly stealing your sense of SELF away from you...until you started second-guessing every move you made. He was trying to manipulate you into HIS (and his mother's) idea of what a wife should be, NOT yours. Don't be hard on yourself...you know deep down that you had to get out. And yes, he will not see this the way you do. But that's ok. You will be able to heal. Keep going to counseling.

As for your trip in January...try and just enjoy seeing your family and spending time with them. Your marriage didn't work out...but good that you found out early and have no kids, etc.


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## pattyreed2011 (Nov 28, 2016)

Well whenever you're at the wedding it will help you to live in the present. Enjoy the actual wedding it will be about them, not about your situation. It's a once in a lifetime event and your family wants your presence at the wedding. So bring your best attitude and be ready to have a good time!

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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Mucc said:


> I wish I had a better answer.
> 
> Maybe him being unemployed throughout our marriage
> 
> ...


This is classic. He's a momma's boy, you just never saw it because he wasn't living near her. He's a special snowflake, too good for any job and too good for any woman except his momma. I'm fairly sure you were picked because of your profession and earning potential.

As for your family get together, the best way to handle an uncomfortable situation is to (1) address it up front so that everyone feels free to not have to whisper behind your back and (2) have a sense of humor about it. Let your family be your support system - "Phew! Look what I avoided! Thank goodness I found out now!"


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## Mucc (Oct 13, 2015)

Thank you for your kind words. 

It's sad. His family is well off. He has a pretty high earning potential himself. They don't need my money I would think. 

Divorce sucks so much. I wish he had figured out that I didn't fit his idea of wife. And I wish I figured out sooner that he had zero respect for me.


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## pattyreed2011 (Nov 28, 2016)

Mucc said:


> Thank you for your kind words.
> 
> It's sad. His family is well off. He has a pretty high earning potential himself. They don't need my money I would think.
> 
> Divorce sucks so much. I wish he had figured out that I didn't fit his idea of wife. And I wish I figured out sooner that he had zero respect for me.


You're a good person and you should be able to be yourself. 

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## Mucc (Oct 13, 2015)

One other question I have been thinking about lately, since I am going to be filing soon - is whether I should claim part of the marital property? 

My friends think I should definitely claim what is legally my right. My parents think I should claim it upfront and then can later drop it. But at least it would allow me leverage for any stupid stuff they pull during the process (We don't quite trust them, him and his brother are lawyers and who knows what they are capable of pulling). They have been petty with all transactions so far and there is a good chance they will continue to be. 

Other advise I have been given is - claim it and put the money towards charity/sponsor a child's education etc. At least it would hurt them since they are SO in LOVE with $$$ (they are very vain/materialistic). But its sort of mean minded and is not my style and might be stressful.

But I worry this will drag out the process longer, and in some ways I want to be rid of him from my life - pen and paper. 

Of course I shall be discussing this with my lawyer - I am meeting in early January. 

Thoughts people have? 

Thank you.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Ask for everything you're legally entitled to and use it as a bargaining chip to get the divorce finalized. Never ask for less because you'll get even less than that.


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## Mucc (Oct 13, 2015)

turnera said:


> Ask for everything you're legally entitled to and use it as a bargaining chip to get the divorce finalized. Never ask for less because you'll get even less than that.


I don't really care for his property, like I don't really need his money. I let him take away all the money we received as wedding gift from his side of the family. I also returned any gold jewellery his mother or he gave me. 

But I am beginning to feel like I will need to have SOMETHING as bargaining chip.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

I'm not divorcing- far from it, I hope- but there have been a handful of times in my marriage that I called my parents and begged them to either convince me my husband was right or convince him he was wrong. 

I almost never did this, reserving it only for matters I thought were more important than his happiness. For example, the time I suspected he had melanoma, he didn't want to go to the dermatologist, and I wanted him to, and I told my parents to talk some sense into him. My line of thinking was, "What is more important, my marriage or his life?" 

The only other instance I can remember was a time, in the first few months of our marriage, that he wanted me to go camping with him whilst I was ill. I was NOT used to being treated with anything other than the most delicate of kid gloves when I was ill, and thought his request was disrespectful to a level bordering on abuse. When my parents took his side, I went on the camping trip, and when I didn't get pneumonia and die, I apologized to him for not trusting him.

I only did this when I felt cornered. I brought them into it because I knew I was the more submissive, younger, less experienced partner in the relationship and I couldn't settle the dispute through expertise alone. When I did get my parents involved, I did so hoping sheer numbers could convince my husband. Three against one. I hate pitting other people against my husband, so I have to have a very good reason to potentially make an "enemy" out of my soul mate. It's really very odd that he, as the man and traditionally dominant partner, would feel so powerless against you that he felt the need to constantly involve a third party. Were you much older than he was? Did you make more money?


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## browser (Oct 26, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> IWhen I did get my parents involved, I did so hoping sheer numbers could convince my husband. Three against one.


Yeah that'll work.

You need to file the "majority rule" crap in the circular file (aka garbage can) and fight your own battles. Or better yet don't let them turn into battles and work out your differences like adults through compromise and understanding.


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## Mucc (Oct 13, 2015)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> . Were you much older than he was? Did you make more money?


Nope, I was younger. I don't make very much money. I am still in training. So when he DID work he made more money. But he was unemployed for a significant portion of the time. I guess eventually when I am fully trained in the future I would make substantial money. But he is a professional with significant earning potential as well. We would have been very well off eventually in the grand scheme of things. 

I think, and of course, this is speculation on my part, that he had trouble seeing the simple fact - there are other ways of doing things and their way maybe right. And its okay for them to do it their way. I shall give you a simple example. 

In their family, they use kitchen cloths to clean up the kitchen after using it/wipe down counters etc. I find that sort of gross. So I use paper-towels. But when I started living with him and used paper towels, he would get upset with me because to him that was wasting money. And no matter how much I explained that I find it gross to use a wet cloth, he just didn't get it (that I could feel differently from his mother and sister). 
But it was such a tiny matter. But this would escalate - him and I would have an argument, he would draw conclusions such as - I don't understand the value of money etc etc. from a small incident like this --> then he would look for reinforcements from his mother. So she would call me. Now she has a habit of being a bully (or at least I felt bullied by her). So she would call me and tell me that he has every right to dictate whether we spend money on paper towels or not. That I should learn how to do it HER way because its so much better. Thats how all of their family does it, it IS the right way. These conversations would go on for HOURS, literally. And IF i decided to stand up for my view point stating that - I believe there is more than one way of doing things, then the conversations would escalate even further. They would call MY parents at that point. Most of the times my parents tried to stay out of it, but sometimes they did stand up for me. My parents didn't like how I was being treated and they would say so when called with complaints. This just made my ex in-laws even more upset and they ceased to have a relationship with them (because my mom would call them out on their double standards). 

By the end of these arguments which went on for days, I would be exhausted emotionally. At that point, I couldn't care less about paper towels. I had more pressing concerns, like learning how to save lives at work and with this sort of emotional roller coaster at home I couldn't concentrate at work. So I would be like - whatever, i'll just use your stupid cloth coz I cant be bothered with your argument while I haven't slept in 26 hours. 

But this is just ONE of several examples. It could be something petty like paper towels or a can of beans. It could be something major like - You need to give up dancing or He was going to go away for employment to a city across the country. It just went on and on and on, it was emotionally so tiring to deal with that. Argument with your husband, then having to have the same fight but worse with your mother-in-law for HOURS and DAYS sometimes. 

Divorce sucks. The heartbreak sucks. The low days suck. The shattering of the future you dream of when you get married sucks. But the one thing I AM thankful for, is the peace of mind. I have always had very stable mood and in general I deal with stress well. But in that marriage, I was changing. I was under a constant high level of stress. The up and down in his mood affected me, the constant arguments every 3-4 weeks were frustrating. And the escalation was mind numbing. I wasn't able to work well and I used to be so scared. Because I don't just make a mistake at work, if I make a mistake, it could cost someone their life and health. So I had to work extra hard and put in extra hours at work to make sure I didn't make mistakes. It was draining me. I felt myself becoming emotionally labile and high strung. That is when I started counselling. And once I started counselling, I learnt to detach myself from his emotions. I didn't feel the apprehension every single time the silent treatment started or if he was being moody, or if he hung up on me I didn't call him back multiple times etc etc. But as soon as I did that, it broke the camel's back. He couldn't handle that at all. The name calling escalated, the rude retorts escalated, so much so that by our last 2 fights he was verbally abusive. Thats when I KNEW I needed to leave because I was afraid it would escalate further. And he told me he wouldn't hit me because "it would ruin his career". So, thank god I was living in Canada where laws are strong about domestic abuse, otherwise who knew. 

Didn't make the walking away less painful, but does let me know that there was no going back after that point. :crying:


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