# Ethical dilemma...



## metta

Dear All,

I am married for almost 10 years now. My wife was initially a "moderate/liberal" Christian, now turned born again fundamentalist 2 years ago. I am Buddhist. We have a lovely daughter who is almost 8 years old now. We have been searching for another child for a few years without success so far. 

My dilemma stems from her religious beliefs and the education she will give (and is currently giving) to our children. Essentially, born-again fundamentalists Christians value a lot of things that are diametrically opposed to my own views. They value blind faith, I value investigation. They constantly jump on the less likely explanation (Jesus healed me from my cold because I prayed), I value rationality (I stayed at home and I recovered from the cold natually).
They ignore uncomfortable facts that go against their beliefs, I value truth above comfort even if it means you have to change your views. They value blindly the words of an old book, I value following what your heart says. They say everything comes either from God or from the Devil, I value personal responsibility. They say you can't be anything without God, that you are worthless without God, I value the humanity in people.

She speaks in tongues and goes into trances. She cries, weeps and shouts when praying, and of course she is 100% certain to be right and that all who do not follow the same path as hers are lost. She is proud of her intolerance and take it as a sign of her faith, I think people of different faiths should not judge each others. She believes the Earth was created 6000 years ago, but when I probe her a bit on the subject, she does not understand a thing about the science behind it.

For living with such a person in the same house, I can honestly say that it really looks like insanity to me. If it was not because of the 'Christian' label and the political correctness expected towards religions, I am quite sure that psychiatrists would classify such behaviours as heavily deluded.

In essence, I feel uncomfortable having more children with her because they might follow this path of blind belief and non-sense madness. I feel it is also my responsibility as a future father to check the environment my children will grow up in. I want my children to value truth, personal responsibility, non-discrimination, being honest with oneself and having confidence in one's abilities. I don't want my children to live in a parallel universe and deny truths and facts they see in front of them for the sake of clinging to blind beliefs. I don't want my children to blindly believe a book or a priest without checking the facts. I want my children to use their grey matter to the full, not to throw it in the bin. That's where I have an ethical problems having more children with her; that's about 6 months I really have some doubts about having more children with her.

Already my daughter is giving signs of not being able to apply the same judgement criteria to Christianity. She is perfectly happy to dismiss some fancy stories around the Buddha's birth (which I think is the right thing to do), but believe literally that Paul was feeding on locusts and wild honey.

Our daughter is already attending a Christian school, which I am sort of OK with. My wife is talking now of doing some home schooling, and I know she started to look at Christian-specific curriculum... That's sending some shivers done my spine...

I know she really wants more children. And my parents too, they want more grand-children... I know having more children will be a happy event in the beginning, but there is a strong possibility of it turning sour.

I would appreciate some external point of view. It always helps to have other perspectives on a certain situation.

Thank you very much for any help!


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## HealthyMe

I'll try to help here, although this is tough. 

My father was a Presbyterian minister, and I grew up in a loving, open minded family. Good questions were encouraged, sometimes answered Biblically, sometimes answered scientifically, and sometimes with "we just don't know". My husband, on the other hand, grew up in a fundamentalist Christian family, and I liken his particular experience to spiritual abuse. His family and church took a very "legalistic" approach to how to live one's life, completely missing the finer points of Grace. Based on what I see in my husband, I am concerned for your daughter, however not all churches are the same, not all families are the same, etc. My husband's life absolutley hit the wall, and we are working with a pastor on helping my husband heal and ultimately grow in his faith. These are the books that were recommended to us and are beginning to read together:

Growing up Fundamentalist, Journeys in Legalism and Grace by Stefan Ulstein

A Scandalous Freedom, The Radical Nature of the Gospel, by Steve Brown

Transforming Grace, Living Confidently in God's Unfailing Love by Jerry Bridges

Silent Killers of Faith, Overcoming Legalism and Performance Based Religion by Dr. Stephen Crosby

Best wishes to you...


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## metta

Hi HealthyMe,



HealthyMe said:


> I'll try to help here, although this is tough.
> 
> My father was a Presbyterian minister, and I grew up in a loving, open minded family. Good questions were encouraged, sometimes answered Biblically, sometimes answered scientifically, and sometimes with "we just don't know". My husband, on the other hand, grew up in a fundamentalist Christian family, and I liken his particular experience to spiritual abuse. His family and church took a very "legalistic" approach to how to live one's life, completely missing the finer points of Grace. Based on what I see in my husband, I am concerned for your daughter, however not all churches are the same, not all families are the same, etc. My husband's life absolutley hit the wall, and we are working with a pastor on helping my husband heal and ultimately grow in his faith. These are the books that were recommended to us and are beginning to read together:
> 
> Growing up Fundamentalist, Journeys in Legalism and Grace by Stefan Ulstein
> 
> A Scandalous Freedom, The Radical Nature of the Gospel, by Steve Brown
> 
> Transforming Grace, Living Confidently in God's Unfailing Love by Jerry Bridges
> 
> Silent Killers of Faith, Overcoming Legalism and Performance Based Religion by Dr. Stephen Crosby
> 
> Best wishes to you...


Thanks a lot for your input. That does not sound very encouraging, though...
I'll have a look at the books you recommended, many thanks for that!

Kind regards!


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## HealthyMe

Your welcome and feel free to PM me if you have more specific questions.


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## SimplyAmorous

Such a shame, Metta, I empathize with you. Fundamentalism in any form is rotten to the core...

It always amazes me how blind some can be to this, it's like with faith...we chuck reason and LOVE for our fellow man right out the window.... 



> Why Fundamentalism is Wrong a piece of the article below.
> 
> *Fundamentalism Defined*
> 
> Fundamentalism is variously described by various authors, but to me it really boils down to a rather simple test: In my view, a fundamentalist religion is a religion, any religion, that when confronted with a conflict between love, compassion and caring, and conformity to doctrine, will almost invariably choose the latter regardless of the effect it has on its followers or on the society of which it is a part.
> Fundamentalist religions make this choice because they uniformly place a high priority on doctrinal conformity, with such force that it takes higher priority than love, compassion and service.
> 
> Indeed, many fundamentalists are so caught up in doctrinal seriousness, that love, service and compassion seem scarcely to even be a part of their thinking. As one correspondent said to me regarding a certain Christian sect's converts, "Its like they go in and surgically remove any sense of love or any sense of humor."
> 
> This emphasis on doctrinal conformity seems to be the result of the belief in the requirement of absolute conformity to doctrine to achieve salvation. Yet at the same time, many will also officially claim that simple acceptance of that sect's doctrine is sufficient for salvation. This dichotomy is often seen in the same sect; some of the fundamentalist Christian sects being good examples. The contradiction seems to go unnoticed or if it is noticed, it is ignored.
> 
> It seems that another facet of fundamentalist thinking is belief in the correctness of their thinking. Invariably, they will make the claim that they are right to the exclusion of others, even all others, and that they, and they alone offer the path to salvation.
> 
> Fundamentalist religions regard their missions with great seriousness. Many claim that the salvation of the world depends on them, and some will seriously contend that the earth will end without them....


Even the salvation prayer is a newer concept... I think the best thing for her is to learn of the history of her new found beliefs...if she is willing to go there...that's the problem. 

The Sinner's Prayer: Modern apostasy and false teaching that prevents men from being saved.


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## turnera

Personally, I would divorce and seek custody, after gathering evidence for a few months on the depths to which she drags her daughter into that madness that is fundamentalism.


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## metta

Hi SA,



SimplyAmorous said:


> Such a shame, Metta, I empathize with you. Fundamentalism in any form is rotten to the core...


Yes. I already read this article a while ago. I agree with it, now the question is 'what do you do if you happen to live with such a person?'



SimplyAmorous said:


> Even the salvation prayer is a newer concept... I think the best thing for her is to learn of the history of her new found beliefs...if she is willing to go there...that's the problem.


I didn't know that! Thanks for the link!
I am studying a bit how Christianity evolved over the ages, and it is striking that its theology has evolved right from the death of Jesus (if he ever existed) to today. And obviously, Christians fought against each other a great deal mainly because of differences in doctrines or theologies...


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## Wiltshireman

There is amazing divercity within the Abrahamic religions and in there many forms more than half the population of the Earth believe in them. You can not force anyone to beleive as you do but we should all be tolerant of those whoes faith or lack of faith is divergant from our own.
It is hard when one person within a relationship experiances big changes in their life that the partner either does not share in or is opposed to. 
In your situation I can understand your uncertanty about attempting to bring up further children together when you ar struggeling to come to terms with the changes in your partners life. Whilst I would not comment on the relative values of differant belief systems there is something to be said for torerance and understanding as opposed to dogma and fundamentalism.

I hope that you and your wife are able to sit down and speak frankly about the concerns that you have and come to an understanding. 
My best wishes (and prayers if that ok) to you all.


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## turnera

At the very least, you should be taking her to a counselor so that you can hear from a professional the best path forward. You have just as much right to dictate how your child is raised as SHE does - remember that.


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## metta

Wiltshireman said:


> There is amazing divercity within the Abrahamic religions and in there many forms more than half the population of the Earth believe in them. You can not force anyone to beleive as you do but we should all be tolerant of those whoes faith or lack of faith is divergant from our own.
> It is hard when one person within a relationship experiances big changes in their life that the partner either does not share in or is opposed to.
> In your situation I can understand your uncertanty about attempting to bring up further children together when you ar struggeling to come to terms with the changes in your partners life. Whilst I would not comment on the relative values of differant belief systems there is something to be said for torerance and understanding as opposed to dogma and fundamentalism.
> 
> I hope that you and your wife are able to sit down and speak frankly about the concerns that you have and come to an understanding.
> My best wishes (and prayers if that ok) to you all.


Thanks for your wise words, wiltshireman.
I will have a talk with her. But with fundamentalists, everything is black or white. I will not expect much from such discussion, but still we have to try...


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## turnera

Since everything is black or white, you will have to learn about boundaries/consequences and start enforcing your boundaries. Boundaries In Marriage by Cloud and Townsend is a good place to start.


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## metta

Hi turnera,



turnera said:


> Since everything is black or white, you will have to learn about boundaries/consequences and start enforcing your boundaries. Boundaries In Marriage by Cloud and Townsend is a good place to start.


Thanks a lot for the reference, that looks interesting. I'll probably have a go at it. Thank you!


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## Aunt Ava

May I ask, what prompted the change 2 years ago? Did she talk and share her thoughts with you about changing her beliefs? What influenced her? 

You should have equal say in your daughters education, start doing your research so you can knowledgeably discuss it with your wife. Are the schools in your area quality schools? Home schooling has advantages and disadvantages, please don't let your wife make a unilateral decision about your daughter's future. 

As for bringing another child into this, I agree with you and would be hesitant to do so.


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## Anabel

Will she work with you to come up with an approach to raising and educating your child(ren) that you _both_ can accept? If I were you, I'd probably try to approach it from the angle of respecting your opinions as a father, instead of getting into a religious war. 

I was raised by atheists, but grew up in an extremely conservative Christian small town. When other people talked about religion or kids talked about their churches, I felt left out. Religion was always intriguing to me, whereas most of the other kids thought church was boring. I always wished I'd at least had some kind of familiarity with the Bible so I could understand what they were talking about. Same went for later when I would read literature and there were so many references I didn't get because of my total lack of education on the subject of religion.

Point being, it may be good for your kid(s) to learn something of your beliefs, as well as your wife's. I would fight tooth and nail against homeschooling though. Your kids will need a balance of influences to choose from.


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## turnera

I agree. Let them see both views on religion, but do NOT bow down to the homeschooling. IME, in situations like this, the homeschooling is done for one particular reason - to keep the 'evil influences' away from your precious child. That comes about as close to a cult as I can imagine.


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## YinPrincess

You are Buddhist, you already know the answer. 

Your kids will grow up with diversity and that's a positive. Will they be confused? Perhaps. It just needs to be explained that you believe in different things. One day your child will grow up and also form their own beliefs.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mel123

metta said:


> Hi SA,
> 
> 
> 
> I am studying a bit how Christianity evolved over the ages, and it is striking that its theology has evolved right from the death of Jesus (if he ever existed) ..


You are kidding right???......As a man , Jesus is a documented historical figure. Your statement shows you have very little knowledge of ancient history.

I am a christian and believe Jesus is God. However, many people believe he was a spiritual teacher (just a man )going about doing good deeds.but acknowledge he did exist .Your statement leads me to believe you have not "sought truth" on this and it is not logical or reasonable to question Jesus existence with all the secular and religious ( not just Christian) but Muslim and other faiths, written history,confirming his life.


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## turnera

Well, factually speaking, we don't have 'evidence' that he existed, any more than we have evidence of anyone else from that era. We don't even know for sure that any of the great philosophers actually existed despite their writings, if you're gonna talk actual facts.


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## mel123

turnera said:


> We don't even know for sure that any of the great philosophers actually existed despite their writings.


:scratchhead:


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## turnera

Well, look at Shakespeare. There's even doubt that he wrote his own stuff.


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## SimplyAmorous

mel123 said:


> You are kidding right???......As a man , Jesus is a documented historical figure. Your statement shows you have very little knowledge of ancient history.


 I doubt he was meaning a questioning if he lived... but it is true, after his death....theologies were formed, or in their making...

And there are those Christians today who view Christianity as a "Pauline Doctrine", explained here What is Pauline Christianity? 

Books like this talk in depth about that > 

 Jesus' Words Only or Was Paul the Apostle Jesus Condemns in Revelation 2:2  and 

The Brother of Jesus and the Lost Teachings of Christianity:

 Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why  

I didn't read these books, and how accurate they are, who knows... but there is just so many questions out there, how one can claim they KNOW the absolute truth, outside of some religious experience (which frankly all faiths have), so what can that even prove? 

Opposing Views were very evident from various followers of Jesus , so evident, 300 yrs after Jesus death about his Being born of a Virgin, After Constantine ...I have this book on my shelf  When Jesus Became God: The Struggle to Define Christianity during the Last Days of Rome 

1. *The council of Nicea* *in 325 said that "Jesus Christ is God"*....
2.*The council of Constantinople 381 said that "the Holy Spirit is God"*....
3.* The council of Chalcedon 451 said that "Jesus Christ is both man and God".
* 

HISTORICAL BACKGROUND OF THE TRINITY

Do you trust all the MEN at these councils ?? My thoughts are....I would think many of those were like Politics today!


Even the *Virgin birth* has varying interpretations, other religions claim virgin births also, some cite the similarities with "Romulus and Remus", earlier mythology. Miraculous births  

Some say the Hebrew words Bethulah and 'Almah really mean 
"*young Girl*" where as we termed them "*Virgin*" in our translations. 

 The Origin of the Virgin Birth Stories



> I am a christian and believe Jesus is God. However, many people believe he was a spiritual teacher (just a man )going about doing good deeds.but acknowledge he did exist .


 I tend to fall to the Spiritual Teacher belief myself.. though I tried a long hard while to believe the other...because this is what I was taught...it warred against my reason just a little too much.


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## Uptown

metta said:


> My *ethical dilemma* stems from her *religious beliefs*.... She is proud of her intolerance.


Perhaps so, Metta. But you are not describing an ethical or religious problem. Rather, you seem to be describing an immature woman who is fully reliant on black-white thinking, projection, denial, and magical thinking to protect her ego. Significantly, these primitive ego defenses are what we all rely on during our childhoods -- before we learn the more mature defenses, such as intellectually challenging our intense feelings (rather than accepting them as TRUTH).

The reliance on such immature, primitive ego defenses is most evident in the black-white thinking you describe in such great detail. It also should be evident in the way your W categorizes everyone as "all good" or "all bad" -- i.e., as "with me" or "against me" and as "saved" or "condemned to everlasting hell." 

Similarly, B-W thinking will be evident in the way she will recategorize someone from one polar extreme to the other -- in just ten seconds -- based solely on a minor comment or infraction. It also should be evident in her frequent use of extreme terms such as "you always" and "you never." Importantly, this type of thinking is NOT an ethical or religious problem.

Instead, it sounds like a psychological problem to me. For some reason, your W is too fearful -- or is extremely uncomfortable -- with uncertainties, ambiguities, and strong mixed feelings. She deals with that discomfort and fear by shoehorning everybody into black or white boxes, thus avoiding having to deal with the grey areas in which real people actually live. 

Of course, this B-W thinking only applies to people and human relationships -- not to things or physical reality. That's why she has no difficulty with the gradations on a bathroom scale or a thermometer. 

If this seems like a strange way to think, remember that we ALL do B-W thinking 24/7 during our childhoods and we keep doing it occasionally throughout adulthood. As I said, it is one of the primitive ego defenses we all have in childhood. It therefore is essential to our survival in childhood. When used only occasionally, B-W thinking remains essential to our safety throughout adulthood. 

For example, when you are in a crosswalk and suddenly look up to see a bus bearing down on you, your brain is hard-wired to only be capable of doing B-W thinking in that instant. Namely, you are capable only of thinking "jump left" or "jump right." For your own protection, your higher-order thinking is "split off," i.e., put completely out of touch of your consciousness. It therefore is not surprising that, whenever we are under great stress or experience intense feelings, our judgment goes out the window.

I mention this because a heavy reliance on this all-or-nothing thinking during adulthood may indicate that the person has a serious _temporary _problem (as occurs with a serious hormone change or severe stress) or a _permanent_ problem (as occurs with a personality disorder). 

Yet, if your W actually were permanently suffering from a PD, you would not see the traits only in the last three years of your 10-year marriage. PD traits originate in childhood and thus, in adulthood, do not disappear for several years at a time. 

I therefore ask whether you've seen, in addition to the affair occurring 4 years ago, any dysfunctional behaviors occurring throughout your marriage? For example, have you seen strong signs of low self esteem, inability to compromise, lack of trust, temper tantrums, pushing you away, or verbal abuse? Did something happen 3 years ago causing her great stress or a hormone change? (I note that it is common for a cheating spouse to deal with the tremendous quilt by suddenly "getting religion" in an over-the-top fashion -- as though her salvation somehow is able to draw a firm line between her old cheating self and her new flawless self.)


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## metta

Hi Uptown,

Thanks for your inputs. I actually did a bit of research and reached more or less the same conclusions.



Uptown said:


> Perhaps so, Metta.  But you are not describing an ethical or religious problem. Rather, you seem to be describing an immature woman who is fully reliant on black-white thinking, projection, denial, and magical thinking to protect her ego.


That is indeed what I think. Actually, the "religion" aspect of it is not a much of a problem to me, I can certainly accept it. We are all mildly deluded after all. It's the fundamentalist aspect that I see as a problem. An atheist can be a fundamentalist as well, if (s)he does not accept the limits of the current scientific knowledge for example.
And I agree with you in the sense I see it as a delusion disorder. In other words, she switched from mild delusion to strong delusion.
I also agree with you that it comes from fear and hatred of life's complexities, uncertainties and unknowns. For a lot of people, life is too hard. It literally is! They find ways to escape it, fundamentalism being one of them. That allows them to avoid having to think for themselves, accept uncertainty and deal with life even if our human abilities are limited. That also absolve them from intellectual honesty.



Uptown said:


> The reliance on such immature, primitive ego defenses is most evident in the black-white thinking you describe in such great detail. It also should be evident in the way your W categorizes everyone as "all good" or "all bad" -- i.e., as "with me" or "against me" and as "saved" or "condemned to everlasting hell."


She is completely trapped into this black/white worldview. This, I believe, is probably the most dangerous side of fundamentalism because I shuts down your heart/conscience and intelligence for the sake of extreme simplification. That's how good people can do evil things; eg: Christians parents just praying for their ill child to be healed and not bringing the child to hospital; in the US, there are numerous such cases resulting in the death of the child. Fortunately, my wife is not against medical treatment... so far... On the other hand, she is very keen on belittling modern science compared to Jesus' healings... Did I hear a contradiction here?



Uptown said:


> Importantly, this type of thinking is NOT an ethical or religious problem.


The ethical problem is not about the mental health of my wife, but about this question: "should we have anymore children"? The point being that I want to be a responsible father and minimize the chances of my children becoming mentally ill like my wife. On the other hand, if we do have more children and I want to teach them about my values (such as intellectual honesty, investigation, etc.) that would be very confusing for the child who will be taught 2 dyametrically opposed way of looking at reality.



Uptown said:


> I therefore ask whether you've seen, in addition to the affair occurring 4 years ago, any dysfunctional behaviors occurring throughout your marriage? For example, have you seen strong signs of low self esteem, inability to compromise, lack of trust, temper tantrums, pushing you away, or verbal abuse? Did something happen 3 years ago causing her great stress or a hormone change? (I note that it is common for a cheating spouse to deal with the tremendous quilt by suddenly "getting religion" in an over-the-top fashion -- as though her salvation somehow is able to draw a firm line between her old cheating self and her new flawless self.)


I can't see anything obvious apart from the cheating, but I suppose that could have been a good enough trigger. That said, she probably had pre-dispositions: bad temper, episodes of hyper-emotionality (usually anger), and she always placed a lot of trust in her instincts and opinions, even in fields she knows nothing about against expert's opinions.
The whole purpose of the "born-again" experience, as you said, is really to make a split between the old personality (dirty, sinful, miserable, unhappy), and the new one given by Jesus/God. From then on, every effort is made to maintain that split. When I just look at their exhalted "witnessing", or their vehement sincerity when they talk about their beliefs or what happened in their lifes since they became born-again, it is clear to me they are acting. Subconsciously certainly. Still their whole life becomes the stage for an act, a show, a display.


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## Uptown

metta said:


> She is completely trapped into this black/white worldview.... That's how good people can do evil things.


I agree. Sadly, we all are capable of falling into that trap when under enormous stress. Indeed, whole nations of good people have done it. One of the most notorious examples of this is the genocide that Germans committed against their own people, resulting in the murder of over 6 million Jews.

Because Germany had been suffering in a depression of high unemployment and food shortages, the population was very vulnerable to a psychopathic leader offering them an easy solution: black-white thinking that blamed every misfortune on the Jewish citizens. The people who now believe those atrocities are an embarassment only to the German people completely miss the point. The atrocities are an embarassment to _all mankind._ They show what we all are capable of doing. If we are not vigilent, we all have a natural tendency -- when under great stress -- to find an easy answer by shoehorning everybody into black and white boxes.


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## turnera

metta said:


> The ethical problem is not about the mental health of my wife, but about this question: "should we have anymore children"?


The way I see it is this. She wants more kids. You doubt her ability. Therefore, YOU have the control in this situation. If she wants them badly enough, she will go to a (really good) therapist (that you have pre-confirmed won't side with her religion) with you so you can discuss your concerns with a professional. Period.

If she's unwilling to go to therapy with you, then you are unwilling to have more kids. (and you'd better be taking care of your side of that)


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## Anabel

The definition of mental illness actually disqualifies thoughts/activities that are accepted in the individual's society or in a segment of that society. Your wife's expression of her religious beliefs, even though they may seem manifestations of delusional thinking to you, are not, by the clinical definition, insanity at all.

You come across as the one being intolerant here, to me.


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## turnera

She CHANGED what the marriage was, deep into the marriage, without any input from him and despite any further input from him. IMO, he has reason to be intolerant of that.


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## metta

Hi Anabel,



Anabel said:


> The definition of mental illness actually disqualifies thoughts/activities that are accepted in the individual's society or in a segment of that society.


So the talebans are mentally sane? They are accepted by a sizeable segment of society in their home countries.



Anabel said:


> Your wife's expression of her religious beliefs, even though they may seem manifestations of delusional thinking to you, are not, by the clinical definition, insanity at all.
> 
> You come across as the one being intolerant here, to me.


There is a question of political correctness here.
If someone talks to Father Christmas or pray to a big tree, most people will have no problems labelling that person insane. But because of the 'Christian' label, we become politically correct because we believe everyone should be free to exercise their religions have their beliefs. Please note I never prevented her to have her fundamentalist beliefs, but I think I have to take that into account when making decisions as a responsible father and human being.

Now think about this scenario. You go to a job interview, and you wonder if you will get the job. You go to a woman who says she is a priestess of the moon and ask her your question. She says she will consult the gods to get a prophecy. She starts praying and chanting, then shouts unintelligibles words that obviously just come out of her mind without any meaning. She cries and in the climax of these overwhelming emotions finally enters into a trance. You can see her having convulsions on the floor, shouting unintelligible things. She obviously lost control of her limbs which are wiggling in all directions. Then she calms down, get out of trance and tells you she saw you have a demon inside and you must be exorcised. What do you think? This woman has the right to have her beliefs and practice her religion, right? Would you see her as sane or insane?


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## turnera

My dad married a Pentecostal. Brings back memories...


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## Anabel

First, just want to say I think that, being the father, you have every reason to want to have an equal say in the way your child is raised. If your wife has religious beliefs that are profoundly different than yours and won't compromise on her approach to educating your children, it's wise to rethink having another.

That said... by the medical definition, your wife isn't delusional. Neither are the Taliban. I can see where you and Uptown are coming from, that maybe she's changed because of an event that caused her a great deal of stress or guilt. However, this is the incentive for many people's explorations of different faiths. It would be unethical for a counselor to dismiss her beliefs as evidence of mental illness. Shopping around for such a counselor would be unethical in itself.

It has nothing to do with political correctness. As to your scenario, I definitely wouldn't assume this person was insane. I'd ask: Is she able to make a living? Is she able to get by day to day--to feed herself, bathe, etc. Does she have any friends? Is she able to maintain relationships with family members? When she isn't being asked to foresee the future, is she able to carry on a coherent conversation? If the answer is yes, then I wouldn't consider her mentally ill. There is and should be room in the psychiatric community for acceptance of differences and eccentricities in people. If there wasn't, the world would be very bland, not to mention a frightening and oppressive place, and at least half the population would be heavily medicated or condemned to mental institutions.


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## turnera

I could agree with your assessment, but it is ALSO affecting both her husband AND her child. So it's not a case of 'is she a harm to anyone' as HIS view of harm may greatly contradict with hers. Or yours. He has equal say into how his child is raised.


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## metta

Anabel said:


> That said... by the medical definition, your wife isn't delusional. Neither are the Taliban.


I am appalled.
So you're saying that the only reason why a taleban's spouse should not wish for more children is because their religions are different and have conflicting teachings...
Maybe I do not use the proper medical terms, but when a man believes that his God asks him to blows himself up and kill as many "others" as possible, I call that a delusion. And I say that this person is insane. That might not be the exactly appropriate medical terms, but we are not on a "psychatry forum for practicians only" forum.


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## Anabel

turnera said:


> She CHANGED what the marriage was, deep into the marriage, without any input from him and despite any further input from him. IMO, he has reason to be intolerant of that.


I agree. He has reasons to be upset and it's understandable; but to expect someone not to change their beliefs over the course of 20 or 30 years would be unreasonable too.


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## Anabel

metta said:


> I am appalled.
> So you're saying that the only reason why a taleban's spouse should not wish for more children is because their religions are different and have conflicting teachings...
> Maybe I do not use the proper medical terms, but when a man believes that his God asks him to blows himself up and kill as many "others" as possible, I call that a delusion. And I say that this person is insane. That might not be the exactly appropriate medical terms, but we are not on a "psychatry forum for practicians only" forum.


Ugh. The discussion turned to psychology. All I am talking about is the medical definition. I didn't make it up.


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## turnera

I don't think he's looking for medical definitions, but real help.


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## Anabel

turnera said:


> I don't think he's looking for medical definitions, but real help.


My point is that looking for a professional to diagnose some mental illness in his wife based only on her fundamentalist beliefs is not a realistic proposition.

I'm trying to help. It seems to me he is here primarily looking for confirmation of his own opinions.

And as I keep saying--I agree, he should have equal say in the raising of his kids. 

I felt like I might have been able to contribute something to this, since I've seen mental illness, Christian fundamentalism, and Buddhism (I've studied it, visited a Buddhist monastery in Tibet and spoken with the monks there, though definitely don't consider myself an expert) up close. Since it seems I'm either being misunderstood or am communicating poorly according to all involved, I'm happy to get out of the way.


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## metta

turnera said:


> I don't think he's looking for medical definitions, but real help.


Thanks turnera. I will probably go and see a family therapist, actually.


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## metta

Anabel said:


> My point is that looking for a professional to diagnose some mental illness in his wife based only on her fundamentalist beliefs is not a realistic proposition.


Which is not my proposition. My intention was never to get a medical diagnosis that my wife has some mental problems, like I would get a judgement in my favour in a court of justice.
My wife is free to believe what she wants. My proposition is that I am worried about raising kids in such a situation because the children might become fundamentalist too, which I believe to be wrong and dangerous.



Anabel said:


> It seems to me he is here primarily looking for confirmation of his own opinions.


I am aware of that sort of mental biases, and I do my best to constantly review my intentions in order to avoid them as much as possible.

I am sorry if I reacted a bit harshly, I do value inputs from all directions.


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## Anabel

> Which is not my proposition. My intention was never to get a medical diagnosis that my wife has some mental problems, like I would get a judgement in my favour in a court of justice.
> My wife is free to believe what she wants. My proposition is that I am worried about raising kids in such a situation because the children might become fundamentalist too, which I believe to be wrong and dangerous.
> 
> 
> I am aware of that sort of mental biases, and I do my best to constantly review my intentions in order to avoid them as much as possible.
> 
> 
> I am sorry if I reacted a bit harshly, I do value inputs from all directions.


Thanks for saying that. I could have phrased what I wrote more delicately as well. 

It's your daughter. Of course you aren't going to be unemotional about it.


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## Sillyputty

The answer seems simple to me--unless the two of you can come to terms with how the children will be rasied I would not recommend more kids. Since you are opposed to fundamentalism (with good reason I might add), it seems abundantly clear that doing so will only cause major strife and discontent. I think seeking professional help is a good start, another option is to really educate yourself in Christianity (as others have suggested) so that you can try to combat the ill fated reality in which she presently finds herself. Unfortunately this is all too common when one of the partners decides the tenets of his/her faith somehow trumps all reason, logic, and above all, the grace of God.


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## turnera

Ain't that the truth. There's a man on another forum who will literally type out multi-page responses to people, complete with 'references' (that all come from conservative religious sites and foundations), to bash us all over the head for daring to believe in climate change or for not being an ultra-rightwing conservative. It's disgusting, and most people don't even read his posts beyond the first sentence. But it's his life's mission to convert each and every one of us to fundamentalism, as that is the ONLY real religion. And he's too blinded to realize what an idiot he seems to be.


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