# Need Help and an Objective Eye



## BellaBrooks

I am here to ask for some objective input into my situation. I have lost all trust in myself or my judgment. My/our story is long; I will try to make this the Reader's Digest version, without leaving out anything essential.

My husband and I were together for 15 years (5 years pre-marriage, 10 years married) before any sort of infidelity occurred. He was very good to me, for a very long time. About 5 years into marriage, we took some huge hits, just bad luck. My parents got divorced, in the ugliest possible way. We had one healthy child but then lost a series of (5) pregnancies, the last one at 6 months. His mother died of cancer. Shortly after, his father killed himself. He took on a horrible, messy estate, with a failing business and lots of debt. His father addressed his suicide note to my husband, basically telling him that it was now his job to take care of everyone. He was 27 at the time.

This is just to say, we've been through some stuff. I'm just putting it out there, for context.

Fast-forward to 2015. In the spring (late May), he blindsided me with "I don't love you the way I used to." He laid out a lot of complaints about the marriage. I asked him about other women, he categorically denied anything like that was involved. He agreed to therapy, but was cold and angry all the time, and therapy became an opportunity for him to vent all of his frustrations toward me. His conflict-avoidant personality had led him to not share with me a whole slew of complaints, some of which were perfectly valid. We were not having much sex (once a month maybe), I had not finished school and was not working and was spending too much money, and he felt he was not a priority for me. I set to work trying to change everything I could. I was desperate to fix it, and I immediately changed behaviors. It just didn't seem to make any difference. 

As it turns out (as I'm sure you guessed by now), nothing was working because he had gotten involved with an OW. With information I have gotten very recently (i.e. last week), the full story is that he was in love with her, texted and sexted with her and sent provocative pics (I originally exposed to affair by recovering a folder of deleted pics), and went to her house twice. It was making out and oral sex (him on her), but he is adamant no intercourse occurred, that is the arbitrary line he drew for himself that he was not going to cross. That is his story, which has come in via trickle because I was a rug-sweeper in 2015 and I just wanted it to be over. Stupid stupid stupid, I know.

So of course, in reward for my rug-sweeping, there is more since 2015. Exposure of the truth started in September of 2017 when he went into another crisis of questioning the marriage after staying out until 2 a.m. at a work event that spouses were not allowed to come to. Again, he acted like he was just randomly feeling "unhappy," but of course it was about a new OW. Again by trickle over the past 7 months, and a lot last week after I finally threw down the gauntlet and told him I needed everything or we could not possibly reconcile, I learned that he was again texting and sexting this woman and he went out with her twice while I was out of town ("nothing happened" he swears, which I am supposed to believe?) and then drove her home from the no-spouses work function and they kissed and "both immediately regretted it." She is not married, btw, nor is the original OW.

Also, in his (promised) full-disclosure confession, he said he has had periodic ongoing contact with the original OW, saying it was 100% platonic. But he was communicating with her via the texting feature of Snapchat so I wouldn't see her number on the phone bill.

He told me a lot of things that I would have no way of knowing otherwise, which seems like a positive sign. And of course he seems TO ME to be fully sincere and completely remorseful, he was crying during the confession and swore that there was nothing else. 

He says that for years he became something he hated, because he was really angry about how much tragedy and burden was put on him at such a young age, and that he was resentful about all of his responsibilities and was being reckless because he was full of self-pity. He seems genuinely remorseful and changed, TO ME. Except when I hate him, and don't believe anything he is saying at all.

Honestly, I am in a place of not knowing anything with anything even remotely resembling certainty. I want to R, so bad. I love this man, and there is so much good in him. We have so many years of good. But there is all this rotten, and I can't even see it at this point with any clarity. It's just a mess of heartbreak and pain and fear.

I do not want to be stupid. I feel so stupid already.

I guess my overarching question is: What do veterans of this sort of thing see here? What am i not doing that I should be doing? What should I be seeing that I am not seeing? Is there hope? Is R possible? How do I avoid more stupid?

Your help is hugely appreciated.


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## ButtPunch

I think you should divorce him.

You gave him his one chance at reconciliation and he blew it.

People shouldn't get second chances when it comes to infidelity,

Love yourself and divorce his ass.

If you can't divorce him get the book Codependent No More and read it.


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## Magnesium

Schedule him for a polygraph test and watch his face when you tell him about it. That will probably tell you everything you need to know about how sincere he is.

But, even so, nothing will really get better if you don't make some changes. He needs consequences - actual, physical consequences, not just his supposedly feeling bad. Physical separation is a good place to start. He leaves, not you. Make sure he gets half of the time with your kids and pays his share through it all. Give yourself some time and distance from him and this poopshow. Let him prove he is sorry, rather than just saying it.

Also, you may want to move this to the Coping With Infidelity section to get more responses from people who have been there.


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## Yeswecan

It is time to D. I appears every life crisis is answered with an affair. Reality is your H choice on how to handle the crisis suck.


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## sokillme

Some folks are just not capable of being married.


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## Diana7

I have no idea why you would want to be with a man who acts so badly. I have had similar things happen, my mother committed suicide and my dad died of cancer in his 60's, it didn't make me cheat lie and deceive.


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## Andy1001

Fool me once shame an you.
Fool me twice shame on me.


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## Steve2.0

It's too bad that so many difficult situations happened to your husband but its also bad the way he has chose to conquer them. Some men buckle in and weather the storm, coming out the other end stronger... and others turn to a crutch (like alcohol/drugs) and never come out of the other end of the crisis stronger or better. Sometimes the crisis conquers them.

It seems like your husband has turned to other women in hardship. Now, is it your fault? Who knows. Maybe there was already too much resentment/angst between the two of you during those periods. Maybe he wasnt getting what he needed from you at the time... It still doesn't make what he did OK.

I would be surprised if he didnt get physical with these women, especially after achieving everything he did with them...


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## BluesPower

Look, you can do all the poly and everything and get to the truth if you want to. 

Fact of the matter is that, he is lying about almost everything. Of course he had sex with these woman. 

Come on, no body does that. Adults have sex. So please do not believe him. 

But the thing is, why, you know he is a cheater, multiple times, why stay with him...


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## sa58

I am sorry to hear about your lost pregnancies.
My wife had a miscarriage at 6 months also. I 
saw the pain and everything she went threw.
We have two children one before and one after.
We were living in Europe at the time and all of
our family was in the US. I was closer to my father
than my mother and when he died I had to travel 
half way across the US to the funeral. I never turned 
to anyone but my wife during all of this and much more.

Your judgement is not wrong. Your husband is
an a-hole period. He wants to use life's pitfalls 
as an excuse to cheat. I have never and I 
say never seen a work related event (NO SPOUSE)
last until 2am. (NEVER) Most after hours events 
are dinners and spouse's can go. Check to see if he 
is telling the truth. If you have an extra room put 
all of his crap in it. Tell him he sleeps there until
you decide what you want to do. Find an lawyer
and your legal rights. Get there business card 
and have it where he can see it. 

During therapy did you vent and tell him how you 
feel ? Do not be swayed by a few tears and begging.
Something happened for sure.Cheaters lie and lie some more.
Do not rug sweep this time. If you want to R make him
show you by his actions (NOT WORDS) that he is remorseful.
Make him beg and crawl his way back to you. 

If you choose to stay or divorce it is your choice 
but he sounds like he has a long, long way to go.

You should try and finish school and get a job
and show him you are not dependent on him .


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## Affaircare

Hi @BellaBrooks, 

I'm sorry you're here and a member of the club no one wants to join. I'm going to answer you today as someone who has been here on TAM a long time and as someone who was formerly a disloyal spouse. I'm telling you this because I think it is the VERY BEST thing you could do to give your marriage the possibility of a shot--but frankly the chances are pretty slim. More on that in a minute. 

What I'm going to suggest is going to take *A LOT* of courage, but this is a time where you need to step up and to the right thing even if it's hard and even if it's scary. Right now, you two have been married a while (you're not newlyweds) but there have been a lot of losses and there have been two incidents of infidelity...which are both marriage killers. The natural consequence of committing adultery is that the marriage you had before is dead. You can't ever "go back to the way it was" and yet I think people often try to do exactly that by rugsweeping. The marriage is dead for you, because you may love him but you rightly so do not believe you can trust him (and you can't because he has not acted trust WORTHY); and the marriage is dead for him, because the actions he chose (in other words the choice to give his affection, loyalty and companionship to another) obliterate his promises to you to forsake all others. Boom! It's dead! 

When I was disloyal, my Dear Hubby found out and he did the bravest thing I've ever seen anyone do in my life. First, he told the OM that if he (OM) thought for a second that he wasn't going to fight for HIS wife and HIS marriage, that he (OM) was sadly mistaken. I knew right then that he cared...not so much "romantically" as "Huh I guess it makes a difference to him." Second, he took me to the train station and said that I needed to make a decision--that I could leave and go be with OM if that's what I had to do, or I could stay and be with him...BUT that it could not be both. If I chose the OM I was never, EVER coming back and that door would be closed FOREVER. Now, I had been with my Dear Hubby enough to know that he meant what he said--he would close the door forever and never look back if I chose to leave...so part of what made this more effective was that he didn't "just say things"--he followed through. Third, he did cry. He wasn't blubbery nosed wailing, but he said he loved me, he didn't want me to go, and he was actually sad and showed it, and although I don't recommend acting like you can't live without him--I do recommend expressing your true feelings. So it was something like this:

_"If you think I won't fight for my wife and my marriage, you have another thing coming. I wish you would stay. I want to be with you and work on this. But you have to choose what you want to do. You can go be with OM if that's what you have to do, but know this: if you leave, you are NEVER, EVER coming back. I won't share you. That door will be closed FOREVER. You either 100% honor your promises to me, or you leave." _

Let me tell you, there I was in the train station with luggage packed and I knew he meant every single word. I bet he was scared to risk it all, but in the end, you don't want to be with someone who doesn't CHOOSE YOU. So he did the amazingly brave thing and told me "I'm not sharing you. If you want to leave, you're free to go, but you will lose me. If you want me, then you have to lose that other guy 100%."

And then after I made the decision to stay, which I did voluntarily choose him, why then it wasn't like he let me get away with cheating. I had a PRICE to pay. Now, he didn't hold it over my head, but in my case, it was an online affair. I do my work online...but I had proven I was not trustworthy online, so for a while I lost my privilege of working from home online. I had to delete any social media, messenger, etc. that connected me to OM including any "friends" who knew us as a couple and didn't know about my husband. I had to share all my passwords to everything, and any time Dear Hubby wanted to check I let him. But...all of this was not him being an ass to me, but rather he essentially said, "What are you willing to do in order to rebuild this?" I did the stupid thing--I was responsible for eating the crow! I was also the one responsible for proving it to him--not him being my police man! So I had to come up with things I would willingly do, and I had to follow through on them--not just talk but also walk the walk!

*TL;DNR *- Pack his stuff into one or two suitcases. Tell him: _"If you think I won't fight for my husband and my marriage, you have another thing coming. I wish you would stay. I want to be with you and work on this. But you have to choose. You can go be with Other Women if that's what you have to do, but know this: if you leave, you are NEVER, EVER coming back. I won't share you. That door will be closed FOREVER. You either 100% honor your vow to me, or you leave."_ Then let him pick. This is not you doing the "pick me" dance--this is you telling him that either he gives you what is due because of his promises to you, or he's got to leave.

If he chooses to stay, then it is UP TO HIM to rebuild what he destroyed...it's not up to you to nag him or police him or tell him what to do. *He is responsible for the damage he's done! * HE has to get his own counseling scheduled. HE has to get his butt there. HE has to do the homework every week. HE has to want to change the way he thinks, from "what's in it for me" thinking to "how can I give love" thinking. But you can't change him. In order for it to work, he has to want to change AND do the work! All you do is sit back and observe and watch his ACTIONS (not his words). If he's doing it, give him time to keep doing it. If he's not and he's fighting against it, that means he doesn't want to do it and lacks the courage to say "I don't really want to change." 

Honestly, that is what about 90% of disloyal people think: "I don't really want to change." Some don't see their thinking as messed up. Some see it but don't want to make the effort. This suggestion doesn't guarantee your marriage will be saved, but if you don't do this--the affairs will continue and no marriage can survive affairs. If you DO THIS and he doesn't choose you, then you have your answer. If you DO THIS and he does choose you, then give him some time and observe if he follows through and takes the time to change who he is and how he thinks. If he doesn't do that, it's just lip service and ...affairs will continue. 

Okay? Again, I'm sorry you're here.


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## Openminded

You're dealing with a serial cheater. They very rarely change.


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## BellaBrooks

Affaircare said:


> *TL;DNR *- Pack his stuff into one or two suitcases. Tell him: _"If you think I won't fight for my husband and my marriage, you have another thing coming. I wish you would stay. I want to be with you and work on this. But you have to choose. You can go be with Other Women if that's what you have to do, but know this: if you leave, you are NEVER, EVER coming back. I won't share you. That door will be closed FOREVER. You either 100% honor your vow to me, or you leave."_ Then let him pick. This is not you doing the "pick me" dance--this is you telling him that either he gives you what is due because of his promises to you, or he's got to leave.


I will do this. I am 100% sure that he will say he has no desire to leave or have any more involvement with any other women. In the "just words" department, he has been consistent and categorical over the past 6+ months in declaring his total commitment and devotion to me and our marriage and has stated he is back to his true self, which is someone "who would never." Right now, he is really afraid that I am going to leave HIM. No way is he going to jaunt off with his suitcases.



Affaircare said:


> If he chooses to stay, then it is UP TO HIM to rebuild what he destroyed...it's not up to you to nag him or police him or tell him what to do.*He is responsible for the damage he's done! * HE has to get his own counseling scheduled. HE has to get his butt there. HE has to do the homework every week.


In September of last year he started going to therapy, and did do homework and read a book etc. He said that he knew he needed to change his whole way of thinking and being, because he had become a terrible person (a "sh**bird," his words) who was making himself and me miserable. There started to be some meaningful changes in his actions and behavior toward me, from being more appreciative and affectionate to communicating better using "I" statements and being willing to listen to me talk about my feelings (which previously had been a recipe for making him fall asleep) and validate etc. In November of last year, his therapist recommended he switch from personal to couples counseling, which we did and we are still in therapy.



Affaircare said:


> HE has to want to change the way he thinks, from "what's in it for me" thinking to "how can I give love" thinking. But you can't change him. In order for it to work, he has to want to change AND do the work! All you do is sit back and observe and watch his ACTIONS (not his words). If he's doing it, give him time to keep doing it. If he's not and he's fighting against it, that means he doesn't want to do it and lacks the courage to say "I don't really want to change."


This is where I feel a little fuzzy about what changes I am looking for. There definitely have been changes, but I'm not sure how to measure how significant or meaningful they are, in terms of being able to feel like this won't happen again.

Changes I've seen over the past 6 months:

1) He is way more loving, appreciative, and affectionate. Physically and verbally. 
2) He is way more open to talking about the relationship than he ever has been in the past. 
3) He gave up LiveCam porn, at my request.
4) He cut off all communication with all former OW's (as of last October), although there wasn't a formal letter.
5) He has given me a number of PW's, in piecemeal fashion, at MY request. There are still some PW's I don't have.
6) He gave me his phone PW, again at my request and fairly recently. He said he thought I already knew it (which I did used to know it years ago, and apparently he never changed it).
7) He has been increasingly honest over time with disclosing the facts. After recently letting him know that I felt there were still things I didn't know, and that R was not going to be possible without full disclosure, he came to me several days later and started the conversation to admit a whole slew of things that he had no reason to fear I would find out anyway.
8) He has continued to go to counseling with me, and has been willing to be open and vulnerable with me there.

Changes I fear he hasn't/may not have made:

1) I'm not sure the extent to which our marriage is a priority in his daily life/thinking. He thinks/stresses a lot about work, money, coaching (he coaches my daughter's softball team), and often seems distracted/ not fully engaged. It's better than it used to be, for sure. But I still find myself feeling a little invisible sometimes, which I feel like right now he should barely be able to think of anything else under the circumstances.
2) His love/affection for me feels overly wrapped up in his sexual attraction to/ desire for me. He is effusive in this regard, while I feel like expressions of love for specific features of my character or personality tend to be fairly weak/ vague. Conversely, when asked by the therapist what he would change about me if he could, he said he wished my breasts were bigger. He was sheepish about it, and said it was because he couldn't think of anything else he would change. But it stung. Especially after 2 affairs with heavier, bigger-breasted women.
3) I of course fear there is more that he still has not been honest about. Transparency with PW's etc was slow and I had to request at every step. He has made me feel awkward by having to ask. There are a couple accounts he still hasn't offered access to, I was hoping he would take the lead but he hasn't yet.
4) A lot of our communication focuses on "how I'm feeling" on any given day. He is eager to help me feel better but, I fear, not focused enough on communicating as a couple, fixing a broken relationship, that HE broke. The tone feels uncomfortably like "I'm sorry you feel sad, how can I make you feel better," rather than "I'm sorry I DID WHAT I DID to MAKE YOU feel sad, how can I MAKE IT UP TO YOU." If that makes any sense.



Affaircare said:


> Honestly, that is what about 90% of disloyal people think: "I don't really want to change." Some don't see their thinking as messed up. Some see it but don't want to make the effort. This suggestion doesn't guarantee your marriage will be saved, but if you don't do this--the affairs will continue and no marriage can survive affairs. If you DO THIS and he doesn't choose you, then you have your answer. If you DO THIS and he does choose you, then give him some time and observe if he follows through and takes the time to change who he is and how he thinks. If he doesn't do that, it's just lip service and ...affairs will continue.


I am inclined to believe that he genuinely wants to change, but is a little clueless about what more/better to do. And I feel a little clueless about what I should expect from him to know he's changed.

What do you think, based on the above information?



Affaircare said:


> Again, I'm sorry you're here.


*Thanks so much for that and so much more for all your earnest, detailed advice.*


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## BellaBrooks

sa58 said:


> I have never and I
> say never seen a work related event (NO SPOUSE)
> last until 2am. (NEVER) Most after hours events
> are dinners and spouse's can go.


He did show me the "no-spouses" email from his boss. There was a limited food budget. But of course the event did not go until 2 a.m. A group of coworkers went to a bar afterward and then he drove the OW home and that's when they kissed, according to his story, which I realize cannot be taken at face value. But I did verify his story about going to that specific bar after the dinner, because of charges at that bar on his CC bill about 1 a.m. on that day. So he at least didn't go straight to her house after, there was limited time to drive her home and then get home by 2 a.m. (and the bar is like 30 minutes from home, not sure how far from her house).



sa58 said:


> You should try and finish school and get a job
> and show him you are not dependent on him .


Thankfully I have! Since 2015 I completed my secondary education degree and I now have a wonderful, rewarding job teaching high school. So at least there's that! :smile2:


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## BluesPower

BellaBrooks said:


> I will do this. I am 100% sure that he will say he has no desire to leave or have any more involvement with any other women. In the "just words" department, he has been consistent and categorical over the past 6+ months in declaring his total commitment and devotion to me and our marriage and has stated he is back to his true self, which is someone "who would never." Right now, he is really afraid that I am going to leave HIM. No way is he going to jaunt off with his suitcases.
> 
> In September of last year he started going to therapy, and did do homework and read a book etc. He said that he knew he needed to change his whole way of thinking and being, because he had become a terrible person (a "sh**bird," his words) who was making himself and me miserable. There started to be some meaningful changes in his actions and behavior toward me, from being more appreciative and affectionate to communicating better using "I" statements and being willing to listen to me talk about my feelings (which previously had been a recipe for making him fall asleep) and validate etc. In November of last year, his therapist recommended he switch from personal to couples counseling, which we did and we are still in therapy.
> 
> This is where I feel a little fuzzy about what changes I am looking for. There definitely have been changes, but I'm not sure how to measure how significant or meaningful they are, in terms of being able to feel like this won't happen again.
> 
> Changes I've seen over the past 6 months:
> 
> 1) He is way more loving, appreciative, and affectionate. Physically and verbally.
> 2) He is way more open to talking about the relationship than he ever has been in the past.
> 3) He gave up LiveCam porn, at my request.
> 4) He cut off all communication with all former OW's (as of last October), although there wasn't a formal letter.
> 5) He has given me a number of PW's, in piecemeal fashion, at MY request. There are still some PW's I don't have.
> 6) He gave me his phone PW, again at my request and fairly recently. He said he thought I already knew it (which I did used to know it years ago, and apparently he never changed it).
> 7) He has been increasingly honest over time with disclosing the facts. After recently letting him know that I felt there were still things I didn't know, and that R was not going to be possible without full disclosure, he came to me several days later and started the conversation to admit a whole slew of things that he had no reason to fear I would find out anyway.
> 8) He has continued to go to counseling with me, and has been willing to be open and vulnerable with me there.
> 
> Changes I fear he hasn't/may not have made:
> 
> 1) I'm not sure the extent to which our marriage is a priority in his daily life/thinking. He thinks/stresses a lot about work, money, coaching (he coaches my daughter's softball team), and often seems distracted/ not fully engaged. It's better than it used to be, for sure. But I still find myself feeling a little invisible sometimes, which I feel like right now he should barely be able to think of anything else under the circumstances.
> 2) His love/affection for me feels overly wrapped up in his sexual attraction to/ desire for me. He is effusive in this regard, while I feel like expressions of love for specific features of my character or personality tend to be fairly weak/ vague. Conversely, when asked by the therapist what he would change about me if he could, he said he wished my breasts were bigger. He was sheepish about it, and said it was because he couldn't think of anything else he would change. But it stung. Especially after 2 affairs with heavier, bigger-breasted women.
> 3) I of course fear there is more that he still has not been honest about. Transparency with PW's etc was slow and I had to request at every step. He has made me feel awkward by having to ask. There are a couple accounts he still hasn't offered access to, I was hoping he would take the lead but he hasn't yet.
> 4) A lot of our communication focuses on "how I'm feeling" on any given day. He is eager to help me feel better but, I fear, not focused enough on communicating as a couple, fixing a broken relationship, that HE broke. The tone feels uncomfortably like "I'm sorry you feel sad, how can I make you feel better," rather than "I'm sorry I DID WHAT I DID to MAKE YOU feel sad, how can I MAKE IT UP TO YOU." If that makes any sense.
> 
> I am inclined to believe that he genuinely wants to change, but is a little clueless about what more/better to do. And I feel a little clueless about what I should expect from him to know he's changed.
> 
> What do you think, based on the above information?
> 
> *Thanks so much for that and so much more for all your earnest, detailed advice.*


You know, basically all of that "sounds" good. You know, it seems like some steps in the right direction. 

Now all of the TAM posters that really like to see reconciliation will probably say, "Look at all the positive steps he has taken". And yes there are many. 

But you know, when you feel it you know. And right now, you really don't FEEL it, do you? 

As a practical matter, he should be working so hard to earn your trust back that he surprises you with innovative ways to make you feel safe in the relationship. It should not be you asking him or us what else he can do, it should be him asking and coming up with ideas for you to feel better about everything. 

And while I usually don't ask this next question, I will ask it of you, and I want you to think about it... 

Late at night, in bed when he holds you, looks into your eyes, and slowly kisses you... At that moment, do you feel in your heart of hearts that he loves you above all other woman??? 

To me, that is the question that needs to be answered...


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## BellaBrooks

Magnesium said:


> Schedule him for a polygraph test and watch his face when you tell him about it. That will probably tell you everything you need to know about how sincere he is.





Steve2.0 said:


> I would be surprised if he didnt get physical with these women, especially after achieving everything he did with them...





BluesPower said:


> Fact of the matter is that, he is lying about almost everything. Of course he had sex with these woman.
> 
> Come on, no body does that. Adults have sex. So please do not believe him.


I confronted him yesterday to tell him I felt it was completely obvious that he had sex with these women, beyond the making out and one time of giving oral. I really laid it out that there is a cheater's script of denial that he has already followed (i.e. trickle truth) and any more will be fatal to the marriage so if he really wanted to save the marriage he had to have the courage to risk the marriage and tell me the whole truth, which I knew involved him having sex.

When I was done laying that out, he said that he realizes it is completely not plausible that he did not have sex. He said he would not believe him if he was me, or anyone listening to the story. He said that he almost wished that he could say that he had sex with them, because he feels like it's actually worse for me to think he's still lying because he knows there is no hope while I think he's still lying. HE then offered to schedule a polygraph (I didn't even bring it up), because he swears the truth is he wanted to have sex with them, and there was opportunity for him to have sex with them, but that something stopped him, and he didn't.

I told him the poly may be what I need to believe that, and he said he totally understands.

Thoughts?


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## BellaBrooks

BluesPower said:


> You know, basically all of that "sounds" good. You know, it seems like some steps in the right direction.
> 
> Now all of the TAM posters that really like to see reconciliation will probably say, "Look at all the positive steps he has taken". And yes there are many.
> 
> But you know, when you feel it you know. And right now, you really don't FEEL it, do you?


You make a really good point. What I've noticed is that there are times when I feel it, and times where I don't.



BluesPower said:


> As a practical matter, he should be working so hard to earn your trust back that he surprises you with innovative ways to make you feel safe in the relationship. It should not be you asking him or us what else he can do, it should be him asking and coming up with ideas for you to feel better about everything.


That's a good point. 

Yesterday, he did the most proactive thing he's done so far. He came home with a list of usernames and passwords for all of his online accounts (I hadn't said anything recently about them). He then opened his phone and opened Snapchat, showed me dates for the last messages he'd gotten from both women (many months ago), which he never opened, and then unfriended them both.

And then he offered to take a poly (see my last post).

And he said that he knew it was his job now to do everything he possibly could to make me feel safe and cherished. And that there was no time limit on that, and he is happy to spend the rest of his life doing it. He said if 2 years from now or 10 years from now I still need to work through stuff or see proof of anything, he will be there with whatever I need.



BluesPower said:


> And while I usually don't ask this next question, I will ask it of you, and I want you to think about it...
> 
> Late at night, in bed when he holds you, looks into your eyes, and slowly kisses you... At that moment, do you feel in your heart of hearts that he loves you above all other woman???
> 
> To me, that is the question that needs to be answered...


I have really thought about this one. My heart is/has been so full of doubts because of all the hurt that it can be hard to even see him clearly sometimes. In those intimate, romantic moments, when I start to get that feeling that he loves me above all other women, there is a reflexive distrust-red-flag ("don't be a stupid girl") that pops up for me.

When we talked in the original full-disclosure conversation, and again when we talked yesterday, I had moments where he was professing his remorse/love/desire to be the man I deserve and I really felt that. I felt him wanting nothing more than the chance to cherish me. He says that word a lot lately, cherish.

It is hard to feel cherished by someone who has treated with you with indifference, cruelty, and disregard. Which he has. It is hard to believe your feelings about someone who has deceived and manipulated you. Which he has. Memory of the past weighs heavy on the present moment right now. 

So I do get glimpses of knowing, like really knowing, that I am all he wants forever. They're just really hard to hold onto.


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## Magnesium

I think he has done a number of things that most people here would tell you he should do if he wants you to stay in this marriage, so I see hope for you.

I do hope he follows through and perseveres through the trying times ahead.


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