# I'm too nice I guess...



## cone (Aug 6, 2008)

I just read this in another thread:

"Women lose their drive for men who are too nice and do too much for them.'

My wife says I am perfect because I'm so nice and do sooo much for her.... uh oh... I may need to change because I feel like just has sex with me because I am this way and pay all the bills....

All news to me... I need to know more!


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## Pravius (Dec 12, 2012)

Humans are driven by what they cannot have, or things they have to work for. If it is handed to them, then the challenge goes away and they get bored and move onto more of a challenge. 

Some women do not see things this way, but they may feel it. I think that you maybe reading a little too much into this. It isn't nice guys that women typically cheat on, it's the guys that over do it. 

There is a balance that you need to keep in your marriage. I like to think of it as a fire. If you put too much wood on the fire too quickly you will smother it and put out the flames, leaving no fuel left to burn the fire, if you just add a few logs at a time the fire keeps burning and burning. People are somewhat the same. If you smother them with emotions, do everything for them, you are in essence smothering the flames of your marriage not letting them breath, but if you go slowly, set boundaries, and add fuel slowly then the fire can keep burning. 

People naturally want what they cannot have because it is a challenge to get it...


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## cone (Aug 6, 2008)

I'm screwed then.... when I back off she gets un-reasonable and thinks I don't love her anymore, etc...

Oh well, I'm fed up anyway..

If I have to choose, I choose not to do too much like I have been doing. I'm tired of trying to convince myself she loves me.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

cone said:


> *I'm screwed then.... when I back off she gets un-reasonable and thinks I don't love her anymore, etc...*
> Oh well, I'm fed up anyway..
> 
> If I have to choose, I choose not to do too much like I have been doing. I'm tired of trying to convince myself she loves me.


That's just the backlash. When you change, naturally she's going to change too, just like your attitude would change if hers did on something.

The key is to battle through your desire to sooth her and just keep doing what you're doing (assuming you're not doing anything wrong).


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

I love Nice Guys... doesn't turn me off at all....once you are married, I don't see why you need a chase.... I do understand needing to laugh, carry on & enjoy your sweet time together... but not a chase...unless you are "playing"/ teasing sexually...that can surely be FUN ...sometimes the woman can take those reigns too. 

I prefer the Gentleman Romantic type...so long as he Loves







& lots of togetherness... that is exactly what works for me, if he was too aloof... I'd grow bored with him. 

But getting to heart of the matter...if you feel you are doing too much - in order to get into her pants & she is being turned off by you... You may need to change your behaviors... 

Taken from Amazon.com: No More Mr. Nice Guy! : Robert A. Glover: Books

Here is a list of *NICE GUY Characteristics* - Most guys have a few of these, but the headed for doormat status "NICE guys"- posses these in abundance . The book has more detail to each little item of coarse.



> Nice Guys are Givers
> 
> Nice Guys fix & Caretake
> 
> ...


There is problems with each one of those - it's the *motivation* behind the doing is the issue. What is happening is -- These men have been conditioned to believe that if they are "NICE" they will be loved, get their needs met and have a smooth life. 

Here is the "not-so nice" traits of Nice Guys ...



> Nice guys can be Dishonest, secretive, compartmentalized, manipulative, controlling, they give to get, passive aggressive, some are full of rage, additive, have difficulty setting boundaries, frequently isolated, often attracted to people & situations that need fixing, frequently have problems in intimate relationships, have issues with sexuality, usually only relatively successful .


Of course those are not true for every Nice guy.. my husband fit 4 of those plus a few we considered halfs in his case. 

Good book, it will make many things clear to you to help you on your way to 1st - Win her *RESPECT* & this should lead to an upped sexual attraction.

*Test here* >> No More Mr. Nice Guy! - Take the No More Mr. Nice Guy! Self-Assessment

THIS is another book that can help you - more focused on Sexual attraction >>







The Married Man Sex Life Primer 2011: Athol Kay: Books


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

Nicely put SA.

I think a Nice Guy is awesome if paired with someone who recognizes the Nice Guy complex and strives to met the unsaid goals. Really, even thought nice guys are secretive, etc. about what they really want, in most cases they aren't hard to figure out if you're paying attention. I'm sure you'd agree with that SA.

Once you figure out what they really want most in life (sex, financial security, to watch a good hockey game, to have a nice lawn, whatever it is), if you work with them to fell fulfilled in that aspect, everything else will be golden because they nice qualities of the Nice Guy will be on full display.


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

I love a man that is very, very nice. He does a lot for me/us, he cooks, is romantic and all the nice things.

Sexually he an animal, woohoo.

Being a nice guy around the house I like. I could easily jump his bones while watching him cook or do jobs outside but being too nice and sweet in the bedroom is a turnoff.

Hope this makes sense.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

When I see the empirical studies showing this to be true for more than a subclass of all available women, my ears will perk up.

Until then, it's just another pile of unsubstantiated psycho-poo with limited applicability. The ONLY thing that reliably gets me laid at home is treating my woman like a princess.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

Cletus said:


> When I see the empirical studies showing this to be true for more than a subclass of all available women, my ears will perk up.
> 
> Until then, it's just another pile of unsubstantiated psycho-poo with limited applicability. The ONLY thing that reliably gets me laid at home is treating my woman like a princess.


How long have you been married Cletus? 

Treating my wife like a princess worked great for the first 5 years or so.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

SadSamIAm said:


> How long have you been married Cletus?
> 
> Treating my wife like a princess worked great for the first 5 years or so.


27 years. And I, like you, are a data point of exactly one marriage. Which makes us anecdotes.

I have no doubt the advice is good for some marriages. I have no idea to how many, or how universally, it applies.


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

SadSamIAm said:


> How long have you been married Cletus?
> 
> Treating my wife like a princess worked great for the first 5 years or so.


Treat her like crap and it will work great for never for a woman who has self-esteem.


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## frustr8dhubby (Dec 23, 2010)

I scored a 34 but I really don't care. Like me or don't. I may eventually read the book just for some perspective.


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## daffodilly (Oct 3, 2011)

DH is ridiculously good to me....only makes me want to jump hoops for him, in my case! I rarely turn him down for sex BECAUSE he does so much for me...helps that I'm not LD, however.

Ultimately I think it depends on the woman. I appreciate the "nice guy" because the first time I married a narcissistic jerk!


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

I do have a bit of a short temper and I'm not always a nice guy. My wife tells me I'm like Charlie from two and a half men and she's like Alan. Funny.

I do stand up to her and get really angry at times.

I don't do what she tells me all the time either.

I am more alpha but not controlling her.

I am not a mr nice guy but not a total jerk

My wife's sisters husband is a nice guy and so is my wife's sister, nice people and they get along great, are married and have two kids. If he was a jerk, she wouldn't of married him.

If I was worse than I am now, my wife wouldn't of married me either.

All depends on the woman. My wife was raised frugal, caring, loving, a hard worker and not a lazy princess with an attitude, needing a guy to put her in her place.


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## Psy.D. C. Maso (Jan 22, 2013)

cone said:


> I just read this in another thread:
> 
> "*Women lose their drive for men who are too nice and do too much for them.*'
> 
> ...


If sex is regular, then I dont see any need for you to worry. I dont see you complaining about any of her flaws. You arent writing about rejection from her side, you even are writing about her beieng pissed when when you reject her.

I in you feet would relax. I think your wife just feels really safe with you..



cone said:


> I'm screwed then.... when I back off she gets un-reasonable and thinks I don't love her anymore, etc...
> 
> Oh well, I'm fed up anyway..
> 
> If I have to choose, I choose not to do too much like I have been doing. I'm tired of trying to convince myself she loves me.


.. and she gets un-reasonable when she is afraid.

Actually you have 2 paths to choose:
a) be fed up and continue believing she doesnt love you, just because she has been feeling so safe in your presence and has complimented you.
b) Evaluate the situation, compare some other posts here at TAM and see whether you are really so unlucky. Maybe it could help if you try and figure out what you expect her to do in order for you to believe she loves you.

Yes women lose their drive for men who are too nice! BUT do not forget that in most cases it is because these men are beieng nice in order to get sth from their wives. If you have been nice by heart, then this rule only applies for when you ALWAYS hide other traits like your flaws or anger. But if you are nice, but are able to express other traits, you are more than fine.


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## goodwife4 (Jan 7, 2013)

well i was a nice wife and my hubby had an EA .. so proves its true. the marriage counselor even asked my hubby what it was like to have a wife that fulfilled his every need.
he said he was happy with that 

well of course he was ?!


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

kingsfan said:


> Nicely put SA.
> 
> I think a Nice Guy is awesome if paired with someone who recognizes the Nice Guy complex and strives to met the unsaid goals. Really, even thought nice guys are secretive, etc. about what they really want, *in most cases they aren't hard to figure out if you're paying attention*. I'm sure you'd agree with that SA.


 Yes, I wasn't paying close enough attention in our past, too caught up playing "Mommy". He didn't want to rock the boat sexually, as I was always an Initiator anyway. Hearing the men complain at work was far worse. 



> Once you figure out what they really want most in life (sex, financial security, to watch a good hockey game, to have a nice lawn, whatever it is), if you work with them to feel fulfilled in that aspect, everything else will be golden because the nice qualities of the Nice Guy will be on full display.


 You can minus the hockey game with mine... but yeah...if a wife is tuned in...& genuinely loves him/ wants to help him raise his voice... it's an ideal marriage. Yes, I would agree. :smthumbup: I told my husband if he ever starts this passive BS with me again, I'm gonna put his balls in a vise. Just kidding. I'd prefer an honest "Brawl" anyday... he knows this.













> *daffodilly said*: I rarely turn him down for sex BECAUSE he does so much for me...helps that I'm not LD, however.


 this is very true - I vouch for this as well. 



> *frustr8dhubby said*: I scored a 34 but I really don't care. Like me or don't. I may eventually read the book just for some perspective.


 It can't hurt. It will open your eyes in many areas.... many men struggle in some of these areas, you are not alone... But there is hope with new behaviors, letting go of the camouflaged man... one chapter calls him the "Teflon" man.

Found this link for the book online >> NO MORE MR. NICE GUY!


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

kingsfan said:


> Nicely put SA.
> 
> I think a Nice Guy is awesome if paired with someone who recognizes the Nice Guy complex and strives to met the unsaid goals. Really, even thought nice guys are secretive, etc. about what they really want, in most cases they aren't hard to figure out if you're paying attention. I'm sure you'd agree with that SA.
> 
> Once you figure out what they really want most in life (sex, financial security, to watch a good hockey game, to have a nice lawn, whatever it is), if you work with them to fell fulfilled in that aspect, everything else will be golden because they nice qualities of the Nice Guy will be on full display.


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:

Navigating the nice guy is a rewarding experience.

Unfortunately the majority of women wouldn't know how to be with a nice guy even if there was a guided seminar about it.


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## frustr8dhubby (Dec 23, 2010)

SimplyAmorous said:


> It can't hurt. It will open your eyes in many areas.... many men struggle in some of these areas, you are not alone... But there is hope with new behaviors, letting go of the camouflaged man... one chapter calls him the "Teflon" man.


One of the things that kills me about the survey is the "I do the right thing" question. Why the f*k is it bad that I always try to do the right thing? I really don't get some of this sh*t. I understand you shouldn't be a doormat but really???


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

frustr8dhubby said:


> Why the f*k is it bad that I always try to do the right thing?


This is one of my favorite qualities about SO.That heart of gold part of him that always wants to do the right thing and treat people how he'd like to be treated.Even though it frustrates him and he vents about it to me,I welcome that side because it's rare these days.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

ScarletBegonias said:


> :iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:
> 
> Navigating the nice guy is a rewarding experience.
> 
> *Unfortunately the majority of women wouldn't know how to be with a nice guy even if there was a guided seminar about it*.


eh, Mrs. Scarlet, care to elaborate? I didn't quite understand about this.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

john_lord_b3 said:


> eh, Mrs. Scarlet, care to elaborate? I didn't quite understand about this.


Well as made evident by numerous threads on tam and other marriage forums,the majority of women don't know how to keep themselves from walking all over their nice guy.They b*tch and whine about "there are no more nice guys out there!! why oh why do I always end up with the jerks!" but when they do manage to snag a nice guy they treat him like dirt,deprive him of the affection,praise,emotional support,sex,and encouragement he needs.They treat him like they always wished they could treat the jerks,the ones who walked over them and treated them poorly.
Then of course they lose attraction for him because he's so sweet and nice that he keeps treating her like gold even though she's horrible to him.Then they leave and find a jerk then repeat the same pattern or they cheat with a jerk.

The same story over and over it gets so damn old.If you have a nice guy LEARN how to treat him and you'll have the most rewarding connection and relationship ever.

I feel like some of these ladies think they aren't worthy of such wonderful affections and attention and sweetness so they sabotage it and the nice guy is left wondering what the heck just happened.
They almost portray an image of "hey I NEED you to treat me like crap so I feel worthless and hang on tighter to you because you're obviously valuable".It's sick and messed up in my opinion because when they find a man who worships them and treats them like a princess (which is what they complain about wanting in the first place),they don't know how to handle it and then think the guy must be less valuable because he's being so sweet and good to her.Her self worth is so far in the toilet that he can't POSSIBLY be a good catch if he wants her and treats her great.


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## frustr8dhubby (Dec 23, 2010)

Amen sister, thank you!


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Thank you Mrs. Scarlet for your further elucidation. It is very much appreciated!

I am not a native English speaker, and I am still grappling with the concepts on how to understand your language through its proper cultural context, since I don't live in a Western country.



ScarletBegonias said:


> Well as made evident by numerous threads on tam and other marriage forums,the majority of women don't know how to keep themselves from walking all over their nice guy.They b*tch and whine about "there are no more nice guys out there!! why oh why do I always end up with the jerks!" but *when they do manage to snag a nice guy they treat him like dirt,deprive him of the affection,praise,emotional support,sex,and encouragement he needs.They treat him like they always wished they could treat the jerks,the ones who walked over them and treated them poorly*.


OMG!



> Then of course they lose attraction for him because he's so sweet and nice that he keeps treating her like gold even though she's horrible to him.Then they leave and find a jerk then repeat the same pattern or they cheat with a jerk.


a bit confusing but I read on.



> The same story over and over it gets so damn old.If you have a nice guy LEARN how to treat him and you'll have the most rewarding connection and relationship ever.
> 
> I feel like some of these ladies think they aren't worthy of such wonderful affections and attention and sweetness so they sabotage it and the nice guy is left wondering what the heck just happened.


Very sad



> They almost portray an image of "hey I NEED you to treat me like crap so I feel worthless and hang on tighter to you because you're obviously valuable".It's sick and messed up in my opinion because when *they find a man who worships them and treats them like a princess (which is what they complain about wanting in the first place),they don't know how to handle it and then think the guy must be less valuable because he's being so sweet and good to her.*Her self worth is so far in the toilet that he can't POSSIBLY be a good catch if he wants her and treats her great.


Eh, Mrs. Scarlet, I think I need time to digest this. I can sort of understand your words, but I don't have a cultural reference in my own culture to picture the idea in the statements I *bolded* above.

So, many Western women consider good men whom are nice to them as less valuable than not-so good person? is this because the image is that nice men cannot fight fiercely, and fierce men are good warriors and protectors? if that so, nice men are not considered ideal, maybe I could understand that.

But why treat nice men badly?


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

john_lord_b3 said:


> So, many Western women consider good men whom are nice to them as less valuable than not-so good person? is this because the image is that nice men cannot fight fiercely, and fierce men are good warriors and protectors? if that so, nice men are not considered ideal, maybe I could understand that.
> 
> But why treat nice men badly?


I can't speak for all women but this is what I've seen in my friends,relatives,and even here on the forum.
I don't know why so many women are this way.I have to assume it has to do with how they've been raised and treated my men plus the lessons their mothers taught them about men.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

JLB, I think what SB is suggesting is that these women in many cases do actually want a nice guy, but their own percieved image of themselves is that theya ren't worthy of a nice guy. So when a nice guy does come along, they don't actually see him as a nice guy, but rather as someone who is flawed or incapable of finding a mate normally, and thus has sunk down to her level. 

In turn, she subconciously thinks that if this man is working to please her, he is at her level and therefore not a worthy mate because that level, in her own eyes, in quite low. Thus, when a 'jerk' comes along with the attitude that he wants her but doesn't need to please her, she sees this as someone who is 'higher up' than her, and someone she should desire and even strive for, even if he doesn't display any of the qualities she truly wants.

It's sort of like your 'clan' society, except the clan in this case is subconciously within the woman's mind, not actually labelled like it would be I assume in your culture.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

kingsfan said:


> JLB, I think what SB is suggesting is that these women in many cases do actually want a nice guy, but their own percieved image of themselves is that theya ren't worthy of a nice guy. So when a nice guy does come along, they don't actually see him as a nice guy, but rather as someone who is flawed or incapable of finding a mate normally, and thus has sunk down to her level.
> 
> In turn, she subconciously thinks that if this man is working to please her, he is at her level and therefore not a worthy mate because that level, in her own eyes, in quite low. Thus, when a 'jerk' comes along with the attitude that he wants her but doesn't need to please her, she sees this as someone who is 'higher up' than her, and someone she should desire and even strive for, even if he doesn't display any of the qualities she truly wants.
> 
> It's sort of like your 'clan' society, except the clan in this case is subconciously within the woman's mind, not actually labelled like it would be I assume in your culture.


See there? you knew exactly what I was trying to say even when I went the long way around saying it LOL  Thanks for the translation


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

ScarletBegonias said:


> I can't speak for all women but this is what I've seen in my friends,relatives,and even here on the forum.
> I don't know why so many women are this way.I have to assume it has to do with how they've been raised and treated my men plus the lessons their mothers taught them about men.


Ah, OK. This is another proof that education at home is just as important as education at school. At school we are taught sciences, religion, citizenships. But at home we are taught on how to behave like civilized persons. 

Thank you for your elaboration and further explanation, Mrs. Scarlet. Much appreciated. Trimakasih/Sukhran/Todah/Thank you! :smthumbup:


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

kingsfan said:


> JLB, I think what SB is suggesting is that these women in many cases do actually want a nice guy, but their own percieved image of themselves is that theya ren't worthy of a nice guy. *So when a nice guy does come along, they don't actually see him as a nice guy, but rather as someone who is flawed or incapable of finding a mate normally, and thus has sunk down to her level.*
> 
> In turn, she subconciously thinks that if this man is working to please her, he is at her level and therefore not a worthy mate because that level, in her own eyes, in quite low. Thus, when a 'jerk' comes along with the attitude that he wants her but doesn't need to please her, she sees this as someone who is 'higher up' than her, and someone she should desire and even strive for, even if he doesn't display any of the qualities she truly wants.
> 
> It's sort of like your 'clan' society, except the clan in this case is subconciously within the woman's mind, not actually labelled like it would be I assume in your culture.


Mr. Kingsfan, your hermeneutical method is wonderful and very effective! Now i understand more clearly, the keyword which I bolded above. This is very enlightening! Little by little I discover more about my culture by looking at Western culture. 

:smthumbup: :smthumbup:

Are you a social scientist, Mr. Kingsfan?


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

No. I'm a lacky in an unfulfilling workplace, trudging through life, feasting off the crumbs spilled from other peoples plates.

Or, in other words, just like 95% of the Western culture.

Though i guess, to be clear, what do you mean exactly by social scientist?


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

kingsfan said:


> No. I'm a lacky in an unfulfilling workplace, trudging through life, feasting off the crumbs spilled from other peoples plates.
> 
> Or, in other words, just like 95% of the Western culture.
> 
> Though i guess, to be clear, what do you mean exactly by social scientist?


Social scientist - scientist who specializes in behavioral sciences, like anthropology, psychology, sociology, etc

The way you try to explain your culture to me, an Asian person, by way of comparison, is very similar to the hermeneutical method that my late anthropology professor.

Then ability to find functional equivalencies is a sign of a good scientist.


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## TheStranger (Jan 14, 2013)

ScarletBegonias said:


> Well as made evident by numerous threads on tam and other marriage forums,the majority of women don't know how to keep themselves from walking all over their nice guy.They b*tch and whine about "there are no more nice guys out there!! why oh why do I always end up with the jerks!" but when they do manage to snag a nice guy they treat him like dirt,deprive him of the affection,praise,emotional support,sex,and encouragement he needs.They treat him like they always wished they could treat the jerks,the ones who walked over them and treated them poorly.


Is there any reason why our Mr. Nice Guy cannot be an assertive person who would not let a woman walk all over him? How come that all nice guys are spineless whimps. Is that part of a definition of a nice guy? 

I feel that this discussion is perhaps too stereotypical. World is not black and white, men are not divided between nice guys and jerks.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

TheStranger said:


> Is there any reason why our Mr. Nice Guy cannot be an assertive person who would not let a woman walk all over him? How come that all nice guys are spineless whimps. Is that part of a definition of a nice guy?
> 
> I feel that this discussion is perhaps too stereotypical. World is not black and white, men are not divided between nice guys and jerks.


He's not a spineless wimp.It has nothing to do with that.In MY mind a nice guy just has a gentle nature and would rather solve conflict by talking reasonably than push back with alpha rules.A lot of women are huge jerks that don't care to talk reasonably or logically so the nice guy gets stepped on until either she leaves,cheats,or he hits his limit and leaves her.nice guys DO have limits...they are just way more patient than a jerk would be.

Who said the world is divided this way? I certainly didnt. if you read any of my posts you'll see my definition of a nice guy and how I feel it's not ok to let a woman walk on you even if you are a nice guy.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

john_lord_b3 said:


> Social scientist - scientist who specializes in behavioral sciences, like anthropology, psychology, sociology, etc
> 
> The way you try to explain your culture to me, an Asian person, by way of comparison, is very similar to the hermeneutical method that my late anthropology professor.
> 
> Then ability to find functional equivalencies is a sign of a good scientist.


Thank you.

I guess I'm in the wrong field. A well unpaid field.



TheStranger said:


> Is there any reason why our Mr. Nice Guy cannot be an assertive person who would not let a woman walk all over him? How come that all nice guys are spineless whimps. Is that part of a definition of a nice guy?
> 
> I feel that this discussion is perhaps too stereotypical. World is not black and white, men are not divided between nice guys and jerks.


Because what most people would call assertive, a nice guy would consider to be acting like a jerk. So for fear of acting like a jerk, they shut their mouths and take it.


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## TheStranger (Jan 14, 2013)

ScarletBegonias said:


> He's not a spineless wimp.It has nothing to do with that.In MY mind a nice guy just has a gentle nature and would *rather solve conflict by talking reasonably* than push back with alpha rules.A lot of women are huge jerks that don't care to talk reasonably or logically so the nice guy gets stepped on until either she leaves,cheats,or he hits his limit and leaves her.nice guys DO have limits...they are just way more patient than a jerk would be.


Those words in bold do represent an alpha male trait in my view and it's is the only right thing to do in a conflict.

I simply cannot see a woman 'walking over' a guy how makes his stand in an argument using reason. I can only see her 'defeated' by his calm.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

TheStranger said:


> Those words in bold do represent an alpha male trait in my view and it's is the only right thing to do in a conflict.
> 
> I simply cannot see a woman 'walking over' a guy how makes his stand in an argument using reason. I can only see her 'defeated' by his calm.


typically when Alpha is brought up,nothing reasonable such as respectful communication is mentioned.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

TheStranger said:


> Those words in bold do represent an alpha male trait in my view and it's is the only right thing to do in a conflict.
> 
> I simply cannot see a woman 'walking over' a guy how makes his stand in an argument using reason. I can only see her 'defeated' by his calm.


There is a difference between talking reaosnably and making a stand.


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## TheStranger (Jan 14, 2013)

kingsfan said:


> Because what most people would call assertive, a nice guy would consider to be acting like a jerk. So for fear of acting like a jerk, they shut their mouths and take it.


Being assertive has nothing to do with being a jerk. Being a nice guy means he's considerate and gentle in his relations with people. 

That has nothing to do with fear to respond in an argument and 'taking it'. 

This is why I consider this discussion stereotypical. Jerks and nice guys here are given traits not inherent to their personality. Nice guys can be assertive, no reason not to.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

TheStranger said:


> Being assertive has nothing to do with being a jerk. Being a nice guy means he's considerate and gentle in his relations with people.
> 
> That has nothing to do with fear to respond in an argument and 'taking it'.
> 
> This is why I consider this discussion stereotypical. Jerks and nice guys here are given traits not inherent to their personality. Nice guys can be assertive, no reason not to.


They can be yes. But you are arguing with logic. Who said that anything had to do with basic logic? Someone who thinks that standing their ground makes thm look like a jerk isn't being logical, but they can still be a nice person.


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## TheStranger (Jan 14, 2013)

ScarletBegonias said:


> typically when Alpha is brought up,nothing reasonable such as respectful communication is mentioned.


If a man uses an argument of power instead of power of an argument than he's abusive and that has nothing to do with being an alpha.


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## TheStranger (Jan 14, 2013)

kingsfan said:


> They can be yes.


This is all that I'm saying. Nice guy is not inherently a walkover therefore one cannot be 'too nice' as the OP mentioned. 

If a women doesn't find you attractive or even worthy of respect then it's not a problem of being 'too nice'. The problem lies elsewhere. Blaming it on the 'too nice' is hiding from real reasons.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

TheStranger said:


> This is all that I'm saying. Nice guy is not inherently a walkover therefore one cannot be 'too nice' as the OP mentioned.
> 
> If a women doesn't find you attractive or even worthy of respect then it's not a problem of being 'too nice'. The problem lies elsewhere. Blaming it on the 'too nice' is hiding from real reasons.


Oh, but one can be. I was one. I was nice, and I tried to talk reasonably and explain my position many times. My ex-wife however wasn't so nice, and would shutdown any discussion in a variety of manners. I didn't agrue with her, as I was afraid of confrontation, and let her walk all over me.

That's the difference between talking reasonably and taking a stand. Talking reasonably only works if youa re talking reasonably with someone who is willing to listen to what you have to say. If you aren't, then you have to take a stand. Many nice guys won't take that stand. I equated arguing as being a jerk, therefore I didn't argue. I now know arguing isn't being a jerk all the time, sometimes you do need to stand your ground over a matter of princial when the other person is, or could be, wrong.

What you say is logical, but that doesn't mean that's how it works.


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## Psy.D. C. Maso (Jan 22, 2013)

kingsfan said:


> Oh, but one can be. I was one. I was nice, and I tried to talk reasonably and explain my position many times. My ex-wife however wasn't so nice, and would shutdown any discussion in a variety of manners. I didn't agrue with her, as I was afraid of confrontation, and let her walk all over me.
> 
> That's the difference between talking reasonably and taking a stand. Talking reasonably only works if youa re talking reasonably with someone who is willing to listen to what you have to say. If you aren't, then you have to take a stand. Many nice guys won't take that stand. I equated arguing as being a jerk, therefore I didn't argue. I now know arguing isn't being a jerk all the time, sometimes you do need to stand your ground over a matter of princial when the other person is, or could be, wrong.
> 
> *What you say is logical, but that doesn't mean that's how it works.*


I like your insight. Thank you! You have a feeling for bringing things to the point. 
*TheStranger* wont listen to you now I guess (_you have been following his other thread, there seems to be no interest in following advice but rather in argueing his points with as many people as possible_), but maybe one day he will know who can help him when he is ready. 
Right now, he is in the stage of denying. He will continue denying that there are simple rules that apply to the mating game and believe his relationship problems are so much different from others.. Then he will go into bargaining, trying to keep as much of his old him as he can, then when he finally accepts, he will start to modify himself in a manner which will really change his life to the positive.. But that still a far way for him.


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## TheStranger (Jan 14, 2013)

kingsfan said:


> Oh, but one can be.


I'm not disputing that. I'm disputing that being a walkover is a trait commonly associated with nice guys or even part of being a nice guy. 




> I didn't agrue with her, as I was afraid of confrontation, and let her walk all over me.


This has nothing to do with being nice. 

My stand is simple. I'll argue but if she's being unreasonable and says or does something hurtful I'll end the argument and wait for another chance to have discussion when she is calmer and when she apologizes for her words or actions.

This works beautifully for me.


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## Jack I (Nov 23, 2012)

Holland said:


> I love a man that is very, very nice. He does a lot for me/us, he cooks, is romantic and all the nice things.
> 
> Sexually he an animal, woohoo.
> 
> ...


Can you give an example or some examples of being "too nice and sweet in the bedroom"?


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## frustr8dhubby (Dec 23, 2010)

Psy.D. C. Maso said:


> ...He will continue denying that there are simple rules that apply to the mating game and believe his relationship problems are so much different from others..


THIS is where I struggle with all of this machismo/Alpha BS. It is distinctly possible that I am completely deluded but I don't see it as a game nor do I have any interest in "gaming" my wife. I didn't do it to get her and I don't intend to do it to keep her.

I am fundamentally the same person she met and fell in love with with maybe some more grey hair and a few pounds. If she has lost attraction to that or doesn't love me anymore, than that is her problem. I will continue to be the same "nice guy" I have always been. (This is NOT saying I am perfect by any stretch, I have self-esteem issues as mentioned before but they have little to do with my core personality).


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## TheStranger (Jan 14, 2013)

Psy.D. C. Maso said:


> Right now, he is in the stage of denying. He will continue denying that there are simple rules that apply to the mating game and believe his relationship problems are so much different from others.. Then he will go into bargaining, trying to keep as much of his old him as he can, then when he finally accepts, he will start to modify himself in a manner which will really change his life to the positive.. But that still a far way for him.


So basically you're saying that every human relationship follows the same distinct pattern. It's the only conclusion I can come up with to explain your confidence for forecasting my relationship and my behavior far into the future based on so little insight I gave in my thread. 

Bold, very bold of you. You already know that I disagree.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

TheStranger said:


> I'm not disputing that. I'm disputing that being a walkover is a trait commonly associated with nice guys or even part of being a nice guy.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No one said all nice guys get walked on. It's just the label associate with it. The Nice Guy syndrome. Naturally not every nice guy fits a mold, but that doesn't mean it's not common.

And I'm glad that works for you. That doesn't work for all of the so-called 'nice guys.' As I said, I call myself a nice guy, and called myself a nice guy back when I was married. It didn't work for me back then. Does that mean I'm not a nice guy?

No. It just means there are varying degrees of 'niceness' which people go to and that can include going so far as to be almost anal in avoiding confrontation. That doesn't mean those people are nice and you're not, or vice versa.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

ScarletBegonias said:


> This is one of my favorite qualities about SO.That heart of gold part of him that always wants to do the right thing and treat people how he'd like to be treated.Even though it frustrates him and he vents about it to me,I welcome that side because it's rare these days.


The solution to this is to do the right thing without expectations. It's when people do it expecting others to do the same or to be recognized for it that frustration sets in.


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## Psy.D. C. Maso (Jan 22, 2013)

frustr8dhubby said:


> THIS is where I struggle with all of this machismo/Alpha BS. It is distinctly possible that I am completely deluded but *I don't see it as a game nor do I have any interest in "gaming" my wife. * I didn't do it to get her and I don't intend to do it to keep her.
> 
> I am fundamentally the same person she met and fell in love with with maybe some more grey hair and a few pounds. If she has lost attraction to that or doesn't love me anymore, than that is her problem. I will continue to be the same "nice guy" I have always been. (This is NOT saying I am perfect by any stretch, I have self-esteem issues as mentioned before but they have little to do with my core personality).


Well, If you ask many women, they admit that teasing turns them on. As a man your best play is when part of what you bring to your relationship is not taken serious by you but playful.

You cant accept it, then accept the results you are getting right now as just fitted for you.



TheStranger said:


> So basically you're saying that every human relationship follows the same distinct pattern. It's the only conclusion I can come up with to explain your confidence for forecasting my relationship and my behavior far into the future based on so little insight I gave in my thread.
> 
> *Bold, very bold of you*. You already know that I disagree.


Oh yes! In this case I am, too many clients have just gone your same way .

And yes, I am saying that relationships follow similar patterns, it just depends which pattern one chooses. If you look at most men who aint getting enough attention or sex or dont feel appreciated. You will always find them complaining about doing something or many things for their spouces/families but not getting in what they need in return. 

I never see threads of a man complaining about beieng too assertive or less available.. BUT when there are men doing exactly this things, oh look: it is their wives posting here about not getting enough hook-up-time. Coincidence? I dont think so, but as I said deny it til you are ready. And I boldly state this. Either you as men accept the natural way of seduction or your only way out becomes a new relationship.. and even this one might fail due to lack of personal change.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Psy.D. C. Maso said:


> And yes, I am saying that relationships follow similar patterns, it just depends which pattern one chooses. If you look at most men who aint getting enough attention or sex or dont feel appreciated. You will always find them complaining about doing something or many things for their spouces/families but not getting in what they need in return.


Now I understand why my clan elders always advise their sons "do not marry higher-clan/higher social status women". All these times I thought it's stupidity and against the concepts of social improvements, but I now I realized that there are practical-empirical sides within this advice too.


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## Psy.D. C. Maso (Jan 22, 2013)

john_lord_b3 said:


> Now I understand why my clan elders always advise their sons "do not marry higher-clan/higher social status women". All these times I thought it's stupidity and against the concepts of social improvements, but I now I realized that there are practical-empirical sides within this advice too.


There is a lot of truth in this. The problem isnt the higher social status, it is mostly the lack of experience in dealing with women who truly believe that their higher status puts you into a position of beieng more the number 2 in the relationship.

I ve seen men who had travelled a lot, met a lot of women and were able to handle "higher status" women. One thing I noticed is that they were focused on letting these women rather persue them than the other way around. First I thought they were missusing these women, because they were bought gifts and taken out (flipped the script). Yet they were still loving men.. 
This is when I started flipping the script in my former relationship. It took only weeks surprisingly. 
In my marriage today I flipped many parts of the script from the very beginning of my relationship and that has saved me a lot of headache. I am rather in trouble of forgetting to appreciate sometimes .

To come back to the "lower status" men and "higher status" women: sure not all were lucky and had in laws that blessed their marriages, but those who didnt marry too fast, seem to have somehow made it to a rather "normal" marriage in which an outsider today cant tell that the wives are from richer families etc.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Psy.D. C. Maso said:


> To come back to the "lower status" men and "higher status" women: sure not all were lucky and had in laws that blessed their marriages, but those who didnt marry too fast, seem to have somehow made it to a rather "normal" marriage in which an outsider today cant tell that the wives are from richer families etc.


Yes, not many are that lucky. Especially in my country, where prejudices between different ethnic groups are still very strong. But this is not to say that these differences are insurmountable; in fact, several weeks ago we just witnessed such intermarriage.


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## hope4family (Sep 5, 2012)

To kinda deter the argument backward. I also think that women marry/date the nice guy for a bit of safety. I have strong nice guy tendencies as indicated by the test. But do not ever cross me.

To make maters worse, some women avoid the nice guy clearly because he appears like a wimp. They confuse meekness for weakness. 

While I am by definition of that test a nice guy. I am probably more successful then most. Because they don't translate to work. I have been both a leader, the guru and even *gasp* the bully. In fact most people at work compare me to the character House. 

Something was different about my ex though. I'm not sure if I will find a woman who knows how to treat a nice guy. Or if I will just fix my traits. I'll work on me, then see what happens.


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

frustr8dhubby said:


> THIS is where I struggle with all of this machismo/Alpha BS. It is distinctly possible that I am completely deluded but I don't see it as a game nor do I have any interest in "gaming" my wife. I didn't do it to get her and I don't intend to do it to keep her.
> 
> I am fundamentally the same person she met and fell in love with with maybe some more grey hair and a few pounds. If she has lost attraction to that or doesn't love me anymore, than that is her problem. I will continue to be the same "nice guy" I have always been. (This is NOT saying I am perfect by any stretch, I have self-esteem issues as mentioned before but they have little to do with my core personality).


During a very low period in my life, I was struggling with my self-esteem, and someone had an observation that was a wake-up call. I was sharing some things that were very personal ... and she said "if you don't believe in yourself then why should anyone else?" To this day, I will never forget that.

I believe a woman is attracted to a person who believes in themselves. "Too nice" is often code for "you don't believe in yourself" and has little to do with being nice ... which in my mind is being respectful, giving, caring, positive, helpful etc. Believing in yourself does not mean going in the opposite direction and being a complete jerk who has to have things their way, will not listen to others and will run over people.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

ScarletBegonias said:


> Well as made evident by numerous threads on tam and other marriage forums,the majority of women don't know how to keep themselves from walking all over their nice guy.They b*tch and whine about "there are no more nice guys out there!! why oh why do I always end up with the jerks!" but when they do manage to snag a nice guy they treat him like dirt,deprive him of the affection,praise,emotional support,sex,and encouragement he needs.They treat him like they always wished they could treat the jerks,the ones who walked over them and treated them poorly.
> Then of course they lose attraction for him because he's so sweet and nice that he keeps treating her like gold even though she's horrible to him.Then they leave and find a jerk then repeat the same pattern or they cheat with a jerk.
> 
> The same story over and over it gets so damn old.If you have a nice guy LEARN how to treat him and you'll have the most rewarding connection and relationship ever.
> ...


Scarlet,
You _never_ disappoint me whenever I read your posts.
Even when I disagree , they somehow resonate with me ,
Still.


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## frustr8dhubby (Dec 23, 2010)

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> During a very low period in my life, I was struggling with my self-esteem, and someone had an observation that was a wake-up call. I was sharing some things that were very personal ... and she said "if you don't believe in yourself then why should anyone else?" To this day, I will never forget that.
> 
> I believe a woman is attracted to a person who believes in themselves. "Too nice" is often code for "you don't believe in yourself" and has little to do with being nice ... which in my mind is being respectful, giving, caring, positive, helpful etc. Believing in yourself does not mean going in the opposite direction and being a complete jerk who has to have things their way, will not listen to others and will run over people.


I understand where you are coming from but for me it depends on the context. I am pretty self-assured when it comes to my job and other things.


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

frustr8dhubby said:


> I understand where you are coming from but for me it depends on the context. I am pretty self-assured when it comes to my job and other things.


Me too, I've had quite an accomplished career, so it was quite a surprise to me when she told me that ... in fact, I remember being somewhat defensive ... but my work persona didn't always translate to other areas of my life at that point in my life and she had hit it right on the head. I'm very good at creating and accomplishing goals, being a leader, setting expectations for myself and living up to them, knowing what I want and what is right ... at the office.


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## cone (Aug 6, 2008)

I have not had a chance to read all the responses but I will...

I am not the guy who does things for my wife to get things in return. I do things for my wife to give her peace, happiness and comfort. But I get weary when no action is ever given to give me the same, like it is expected of me now. I will do most anything for her un-selfishly but I dont like when she takes advantage of it and I think it has gotten to that point. 

I am finding the balance because my wife isnt into the alpha male thing, she likes a nice guy. But I have made her more attracted to me lately by not being as freely giving as I have been in recent months. 

But Im not doing it in a totally selfish manner, it's more that I am placing a higher priority on other things like working hard to increase our household income or time to go do a hobby for me... etc... This priority shift does not place her below other priorities, it just make her as a priority not so much higher above the others.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

A couple of other points:
1) People are selfish and lazy, and women are no exception. So if a nice guy is catering to his woman’s every whim, it is the exceptional person who will not start to feel entitled and take those actions for granted. The actions of a nice guy become expected as the minimum, rather than appreciated as a nice gesture.
2) It happens over time, often so slowly that neither spouse realizes it. 

So with that in mind, my wife likes that I am a nice person. But she did lose attraction when I did not stand up for myself. I don't think it was because she did not think she deserved it, but because I lost the man I was in trying to be this nice husband. I had to rebalance myself, and be a tiny bit selfish at times.


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## mildlyperplexed (Feb 3, 2013)

This thread is so full of pseudo-scientific BS you could start an organic fertilizer business with it.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

mildlyperplexed said:


> This thread is so full of pseudo-scientific BS you could start an organic fertilizer business with it.


care to elaborate? what do you find is BS?


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## hope4family (Sep 5, 2012)

mildlyperplexed said:


> This thread is so full of pseudo-scientific BS you could start an organic fertilizer business with it.


So is the whole "love drug", & "affair fog" scientific BS? I dont always prescribe to the logic of alpha vs beta types. But if I may be so bold to say as to say that there is a logical reasoning to the nice guy syndrome. 

It is a stereo type that exists in our society and maybe not in other societies. 

I can promise you, if I wasn't a nice guy. I wouldn't have tolerated my ex-wife behavior in an unhealthy manner. Nice guy is a way of saying someone who lacks respect for themselves. For whatever reason that may be.


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## mildlyperplexed (Feb 3, 2013)

ScarletBegonias said:


> care to elaborate? what do you find is BS?


The idea that women must be gamed or abused in some way to make them stay is ridiculous. Sure some people have self esteem issues or are down right self destructive in their taste of partners but in my experience that has nothing to do with gender. Being taken for granted also doesn't seem to me to be a one sided issue. 

My Husband ticks almost all of the 'good' nice guy boxes listed on the first page and one or two of the 'bad' ones.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

mildlyperplexed said:


> The idea that women must be gamed or abused in some way to make them stay is ridiculous. Sure some people have self esteem issues or are down right self destructive in their taste of partners but in my experience that has nothing to do with gender. Being taken for granted also doesn't seem to me to be a one sided issue.
> 
> My Husband ticks almost all of the 'good' nice guy boxes listed on the first page and one or two of the 'bad' ones.


some women DO need to be gamed and abused to make them stay though.They're unhealthy and it's all they know about love and relationships.I don't think it's right at all but it'll keep happening til the woman gets herself some help and realizes her own worth.Then the gamers/abusers will move on to another broken woman.
It can be men or women with this issue.There are many men out there who will abuse a nice girl just as many women abuse a nice guy.
I totally agree that being taken for granted isn't a gender specific issue.

My SO is classic nice guy and only recently started standing up for himself slightly.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

mildlyperplexed said:


> The idea that women must be gamed or abused in some way to make them stay is ridiculous. Sure some people have self esteem issues or are down right self destructive in their taste of partners but in my experience that has nothing to do with gender. Being taken for granted also doesn't seem to me to be a one sided issue.
> 
> My Husband ticks almost all of the 'good' nice guy boxes listed on the first page and one or two of the 'bad' ones.


I wouldn't label it as 'gamed' or 'abused.' Rather I think of it more as leaving the woman thinking she needs to work to keep the man (and vice versa, there is nice gals too). If a guy is so nice that the woman gets the impression she can do almost whatever she wants within a relationship, there's a good chance she will, even if not done purposefully. 

I think it's human nature to want to push your boundaries as much as you can. We do it in everything we do, from housework, to our jobs, to our family. Some people take it to far though and if that person is coupled with a 'nice guy' who continues to bend when they are pushed, they will walk all over that person because that person doesn't make them work to keep them (by treating them with respect, meeting their needs, etc.)

It's like that co-worker who is always coming into your office and taking your pencils. Most co-workers know not to do it, or will make sure to bring it back right away, but there's that co-worker that every time he needs a pencil will come in and take one. After a few weeks, you're out of pencils, unless you stand up and demand he stop coming into your office. You have to create those boundaries and clearly state if you cross that boundary, there will be consequences. Nice guys either don't set boundaries, or set them way to loose.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

john_lord_b3 said:


> Thank you Mrs. Scarlet for your further elucidation. It is very much appreciated!
> 
> I am not a native English speaker, and I am still grappling with the concepts on how to understand your language through its proper cultural context, since I don't live in a Western country.
> 
> ...


Oh lordy. These are stereo types. Many many women are married to nice guys and love them and treat them well. Please realize that this web site has a lot of people on it who are upset with their own failed marriages. They are in the 20%-30% of marriages that end in divorce. I am in the 20%-30% as well. 

My husbands were not nice guys. They were cheaters and abusers. I'd give anything to find a nice-guy to marry. I thought that was what I had when I married both of them. Instead I found out that the nice-guy things was an act that they put on until we married. 

Almost every man whose marriage has failed will tell you he was a nice guy. My son's father says that about himself all the time. He forgets to tell people that he cheated with many women over the entire course of your marriage, that he was emotionally and physically abusive. He tells people that I took eveything from him. He forgets to tell them that I supported him and our child while he was in medical school and residency. I would just put my income in our joint account and he paid the bills. Then without telling me he also paid his mothers and fathers bills and moved thousands of dollars into investments and saving in his own name and his mother’s name. A lot of guys who present themselves are not nice guys. They are giving the world an image of how they want to be seen.

On site we usually only get one side of every story. Keep that in mind.

We also get nonsense psychobabble, like the idea that women lose interest in 'nice guys' as though there are no other issues in the marriage. As though the only problem in the marriage is that the husband is such a wonderful nice guy that his wife no longer is attracted to him. Do you think that there might be other issues as well? Maybe, just maybe if she were to come here we’d here about ‘the rest of the story”.

I remember one guy who complained here that his wife was no longer interested in having sex with him. He was a nice guy according to him and she was just a cold, mean woman. Well he wife did join the site and posted. She explained why she did not want sex with him anymore. She said that he never takes a bath/shower. He stinks. He never brushes his teeth and his mouth is just dirty. He spent all his time in bed watching TV. And when he wanted sex he would just lay in bed and tell her to get on him. There was no non-sexual intimacy in the relationship. There was no foreplay, nothing just a stinky, dirty husband ordering her to get on him for sex. His reply to her made it pretty clear that she was telling the truth.

Please do not that threads like this as a true picture of what Western marriage and Western men and women are like. Most people like “nice guys”… whether it’s a nice man or a nice woman.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

ScarletBegonias said:


> some women DO need to be gamed and abused to make them stay though.They're unhealthy and it's all they know about love and relationships.I don't think it's right at all but it'll keep happening til the woman gets herself some help and realizes her own worth.Then the gamers/abusers will move on to another broken woman.
> It can be men or women with this issue.There are many men out there who will abuse a nice girl just as many women abuse a nice guy.
> I totally agree that being taken for granted isn't a gender specific issue.
> 
> My SO is classic nice guy and only recently started standing up for himself slightly.


I do not think that some women need to be gamed and abused to stay. They would stay without the gaming and the abuse.

I think that they put up with the gaming and abuse because that's all the know and they think it's normal.

What I was told by a counselor is that the abuser is the one who picks a partner who they can abuse. There are steps they go through to eliminate potential partners who will not put up with their abuse. And sadly, poeple who were abused as children have very poor boundaries. There for they are easy picking for abusers.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> I do not think that some women need to be gamed and abused to stay. They would stay without the gaming and the abuse.
> 
> I think that they put up with the gaming and abuse because that's all the know and they think it's normal.
> 
> What I was told by a counselor is that the abuser is the one who picks a partner who they can abuse. There are steps they go through to eliminate potential partners who will not put up with their abuse. And sadly, poeple who were abused as children have very poor boundaries. There for they are easy picking for abusers.


My therapist always told it to me differently. so I guess that's why my feelings about it have been formed around the notion that a lot of women(AND MEN) will stay with an abuser over staying with a nice partner bc they feel they aren't worthy of the nice partner,they feel they're flawed or evil therefore there must be something terribly wrong with this nice person for wanting to be with them.
Can't speak for ALL women of course which is why I have to say my comments come from my own experience and what I've seen from friends when I was younger.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

Well put EleGirl. I too also remember a female poster on her who was a well regarded poster (forget her name now though) and the sole reason she joined is because he husband had posted in the CWI section, passing himself off as the typicla nice guy who had tried everything under the sun to make things work but that his wife was ready to leave him due to being bored with him (or something to that effect).

She found his post on the forum, and she found it because she was wondering if he was screwing around on her again cause he had done so before. She then posted the rest of the story and as it turned out, he was trying to get her into swingers club and wanted to have an affair with her permission and was essentially a no good mooch who wanted only to satisfy his own fetishes, which led him to his marital crisis.

that female poster was around for a while, but I haven't seen her post in a bit now (unless I've completely forgotten who it was and she's still posting here). It was a good read.

As such I try to keep that in mind when I reply to people and I often try to advice people what they can do to fix the problem, and I base it only on what they have written. Sometimes I'll even go as far as to say things to the affect of "if your husband/wife is truly as bad as you say he/she is..." because of the fact I don't know the full story. 

It really is a shame when people post here about their problems, and then four pages into a thread on 'why won't my wife sleep with me, I treat her like a queen' it comes out that "oh, btw, I did cheat on my wife seven times in the past four years"

i've never understood why people feel the need to lie about their life to strangers on a message board when theya re coming here for help. How do you expect help without full disclosure?


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

ScarletBegonias said:


> My therapist always told it to me differently. so I guess that's why my feelings about it have been formed around the notion that a lot of women(AND MEN) will stay with an abuser over staying with a nice partner bc they feel they aren't worthy of the nice partner,they feel they're flawed or evil therefore there must be something terribly wrong with this nice person for wanting to be with them.
> Can't speak for ALL women of course which is why I have to say my comments come from my own experience and what I've seen from friends when I was younger.


I think you and EleGirl are both right. I do think some people, perhaps most people, do take the viewpoint of "I'm not worthy of you" or "You must be flawed to want to be so nice to me" but those are likely restricted to people who have low self-esteem in themselves. For those like what EleGirl is stating, they likely have much more self-confidence and take an attitude more along the lines of "You should be thankful I don't boot you out. You better please me or else." attitude. There are some people in this world who genuinely get off on having power over someone else, often people who don't have power in other things in their life, or are even made to feel subservient, such as with their family or at work.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

kingsfan said:


> I think you and EleGirl are both right. I do think some people, perhaps most people, do take the viewpoint of "I'm not worthy of you" or "You must be flawed to want to be so nice to me" but those are likely restricted to people who have low self-esteem in themselves. For those like what EleGirl is stating, they likely have much more self-confidence and take an attitude more along the lines of "You should be thankful I don't boot you out. You better please me or else." attitude. There are some people in this world who genuinely get off on having power over someone else, often people who don't have power in other things in their life, or are even made to feel subservient, such as with their family or at work.


I was just thinking that I totally agree with what EG is saying too.I think we're both right because it's definitely not a black and white clear cut issue at all.There are so many in between things and variables.We could probably talk all day and still come up with more scenarios to add


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## hope4family (Sep 5, 2012)

To expose myself some. I thought for a long time that maybe I was controlling and over jealous. But when I repeated what was said/done here. I found out that while my behaviors are in fact jealousy, and even controlling it was perfectly normal and even healthy for the marriage. 

But I don't want to go into it too much. The real problem is that I never stood up to myself to begin with. If I had. I would have gotten my marriage annulled 4 days in. She did ask for forgiveness, but like a sucker, I caved. I only say sucker, because here I am years later, and who does she blame getting married on? Me.

I was so stunned by her manipulation, twisting of words, and changing of the story. That I was left speechless.


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## donny64 (Apr 21, 2012)

The "Nice Guy" lable is being painted with too broad a brush for the purposes of this conversation, and people who think they're nice guys, or women who think they have nice guys are taking exception to it.

It's fine to be a "nice guy", up until the time you become a doormat. When you cross over into that doormat territory is when "nice guy" becomes a negative.

I hate the term "nice guy" when applied to me, because I simply heard it too often when I was younger. Usually from women who I wanted to date. "Oh, well, he's a nice guy, but...."

I can only relate to this as to what I experienced, felt, and have seen in others....

I was a good man. A damn good one (and continue to be). But what I lacked (and what nearly every bad "nice guy" lacks, is CONFIDENCE. I admit it, I lacked it. I was not sure how to deal with girls and women, and it showed. I tried to nice my way into their good graces. I mean, after all, all of our moms told us to be a nice guy or find a nice guy. So that's what I tried. When I managed to "snag one" (a girl or woman), I felt lucky to have her and did my damn level best to not upset the apple cart for fear of her leaving. I did not understand that as good of a man as I was, that should have been enough. As a result, I took abusive behavior. Started out with a snarky comment here or there. I let it go. Progressed to issues with sex (frequency, quality). I let it go, or tried to nice my way to better sex. Resentment would build to a point I would get angry. I carried that anger around. I became passive aggressive. 

I was also a very jealous person. Insecure enough in myself to believe that were I to let this "great woman" I had on this pedestal out of my sight, that she may fall for the charms of another "better" guy than me.

I took crap. A lot of it. Unreasonable, sometimes cruel, and insensitive behavior. Tried to fix it by being nicer. When that didn't work, I got angry. Very angry. I was clingy. I bought too damned many gifts (even after being treated poorly) because I thought being that generous would be seen as a positive. Yet it never seemed to be. I couldn't understand it. I mean come on!!! I'm a "nice guy"!!!!

I'd put up with it to the point I boiled over. Because she was "so pretty" and I was "lucky to have her". Never realizing, that she should have felt as lucky to have me. And if she did, she wouldn't be acting that way. I had them (women) up on a pedestal. A high one. And I grew more frustrated because while I KNEW I had good traits, I failed to see my bad ones that were caused by the insecurity. Jealousy. Anger. Resentment. Settling for a "lesser woman" than what I wanted because I felt fortunate to have that. Meanwhile this "lesser woman" never received the true love and affection she SHOULD have received if she were a true "soul mate" for someone (for lack of a better description). That's because SHE WASN'T THAT PERSON. And because I was an insecure person with no real confidence, I, for that time of her life, robbed her (them) of having someone that truly thought they were the "cats meow". Because trust me, as pretty as some of them may have been, they WERE NOT that to me (on the outside, sure, but inside to me they appeared ugly). Not after all my resentment and anger built.

THAT is the problem, in my mind, women have with "nice guys". They know you're not genuine, and it will ultimately lead to trouble (anger, resentment, jealousy, cheating at the first opportunity, etc., etc). And THAT is why women "chit test". They want to see if you're going to be "that guy", the guy like I was. The guy whose feelings they can't trust. 

Well, I watched, learned, and also learned from my mistakes. More than that, I got tired of being treated like I was less of a man than I KNEW I was. Only then, when that switch tripped in my brain that said "God Damnit, I know I'm a good man, and I REFUSE to be treated as anything less" did it change. I decided I would rather be alone than be with someone who treated me poorly or did not WANT me in a very real and serious way. I found confidence in that. And I stuck to my guns. And a strange thing happened....

I started getting more and better quality women (independent, smart, successful, strong women) wanting to see me. 

The first times one would do something to legitimately tick me off, I was nervous as a guy jumping out of an airplane for the first time...but I stood my ground. Fully prepared to find her gone for good. Oh yeah, they'd threaten it. Or act all kinds of pissed off (but that was nothing new), but I stood my ground. And she would come around. If it happened again, I again stood my ground. 

Funny the confidence you really gain when you do stand up for yourself, AND this quality woman remains with you. You really begin to understand she REALLY likes you for who you are, and not because of how much of her azz you can kiss. She wants YOU, you are HER GUY because she wants you to be, she will work to keep you, and not some other guy. 

You also realize that you can do things to make yourself happy (hobbies, time out with the guys, etc) away from her, and if she has great issue with that, that is where her insecurity will start to rear its head if she's prone to that. And you can move on if she becomes too insecure, controlling, or abusive. If not, you know you can stay AND do some things for yourself. 

"Nice guys" or more appropriately "doormats" are afraid to take that leap. Hugely afraid. Because they're worried about this woman leaving, and "then what? When will I or even will I ever find someone again?"

At any rate, I continued to gain real confidence. And it showed. I would approach women easily for dates. I assertive, not meek. I was funny, not flustered.

I carried that over when the relationships went long term. And if I was being treated badly, I called them on it. If they were unreasonable, I said so. If they acted as though, or said they didn't want to be there, I had a "don't let the door hit you in the azz on the way out" mentality. 

What I did, in a nutshell, was to make certain this person I was interested in would treat me well and make me happy. And when I did that, I was able to truly let go and do the same for them, harboring no resentment, anger, etc. I treated them wonderfully up and until the point they no longer were worthy of that. If they weren't doing their best to keep me and make me happy, I would not do so for them. Period. 

What all this resulted in was a tremendous series of very fulfilling relationships without any of that bullchit baggage dragging it under. No more animosity. No more resentment. No more anger. No more jealousy. And just happy, content, harmony with a woman who loved to be with me, and that I LOVED to be with. Oh, and TONS of sex as well. Funny thing that...women for some reason just love to sleep with someone they see attractive traits in and can respect. Damn sure wish I'd have figured that out in my younger days!

Best thing about it all, that so many "nice guys" never figure out, is all you have to do is make sure the one you're with treats you well. All the time. And if she doesn't treat you the way you deserve, be prepared to walk and follow through with it. That's it.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> Oh lordy. These are stereo types. Many many women are married to nice guys and love them and treat them well. Please realize that this web site has a lot of people on it who are upset with their own failed marriages. They are in the 20%-30% of marriages that end in divorce. I am in the 20%-30% as well. ...I'd give anything to find a nice-guy to marry. I thought that was what I had when I married both of them. Instead I found out that the nice-guy things was an act that they put on until we married....Please do not that threads like this as a true picture of what Western marriage and Western men and women are like. Most people like “nice guys”… whether it’s a nice man or a nice woman.


:smthumbup:

Thank you Miss EleGirl for your clarifications. I agree, we cannot take a lower quartile of the Bell's Curve and apply them to the general population.

Be as that may, it is the lower percentile who often needs help and seek advice. Therefore, to be able to understand their plight, I am visiting and reading these threads in this forum. Your input are greatly appreciated.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

ScarletBegonias said:


> care to elaborate? what do you find is BS?


For me personally, if you can't point to a published double blind study supporting your Grand Unified Theory of Relationships, you're on thin ice.

You might be right, but you're far, far short of proving it. People are notoriously bad at teasing out causation from correlation. They're biased in their observations. They see patterns where none exist and generalize from their personal experiences to the entire population. They nod their head in agreement with any post that mirrors their reality and underplay those that do not. Someone who agrees with you is 'amazingly insightful', while one who does not is 'emotionally stunted'.

As someone who makes a living in the hard sciences, I have learned to take it all with a hefty grain of salt.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

Cletus said:


> For me personally, if you can't point to a published double blind study supporting your Grand Unified Theory of Relationships, you're on thin ice.
> 
> You might be right, but you're far, far short of proving it. People are notoriously bad at teasing out causation from correlation. They're biased in their observations. They see patterns where none exist and generalize from their personal experiences to the entire population. They nod their head in agreement with any post that mirrors their reality and underplay those that do not.
> 
> As someone who makes a living in the hard sciences, I have learned to take it all with a hefty grain of salt.


whoa...why was this aimed at me? I have my views but I've always been one to try and see the other side of the fence also.I don't preach anything here as fact and I'm typically careful to say that my thoughts aren't anything more than what I've seen or experienced for myself.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

ScarletBegonias said:


> whoa...why was this aimed at me? I have my views but I've always been one to try and see the other side of the fence also.I don't preach anything here as fact and I'm typically careful to say that my thoughts aren't anything more than what I've seen or experienced for myself.


It wasn't "aimed" at you - just answering the question you posed to someone else from my perspective.

There was no intent to paint you personally with any of that.


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