# Surviving sexual incompatiblity



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Anyone want to discuss this? 

Many come to this site looking to fix an unsatisfying sex life. Sometimes the problems stem not from having a sexless marriage or an LD spouse, but from simply having an irreconcilable difference of opinion on what a satisfying sex life should contain. Your spouse desires intimacy with you, but under terms that you find hard to agree to. 

I am one of those "survivors". I came hear 6 years ago hoping to find some magic bullet that would improve my sex life, meaning of course what could I do to change my spouse. I didn't find that bullet. But I did manage to change the one thing over which I had any measure of control - my attitude towards the problem. 

Anyway, I'm not big on "wall of text" posts that lay out every excruciating detail, but if this topic is of interest to anyone else, I'm all ears. 

I will say that if you are dedicated to staying in the marriage, and many here will counsel you not to do that, then you will have to find a way to accept certain things about your spouse that are true whether you wish them to be or not. What I found the most helpful was the eventual full realization, all the way down in my bones that -

1. My spouse was a couple of standard deviations from the mean on most sex issues, but was not damaged or broken
2. My spouse was not in need of repair
3. My spouse was not trying to control me nor to hurt me
4. As with every facet of human behavior, you cannot simply will your spouse to change
5. What change does come will probably be glacial 
6. Trying to force your spouse to change fundamental aspects of her personality after you discover that such change is unlikely or impossible is to be cruel. It's also counterproductive.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Those realizations are very insightful, @Cletus. However, what do you do with them, and the realization that you are fundamentally incompatible? You are dedicated to staying in your marriage. I would not be, once these facts become clear. If anything, they would be nearly decisive in making a decision to leave. In fact, they were.


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## Middle of Everything (Feb 19, 2012)

I believe you are right Cletus.

--there is no magic bullet
--some people just fundamentally dont like sex nearly as much as you or I may. Its nothing personal. I think it is in fact more like enjoying other activities or certain foods more. Its just who they are.
--they arent trying to hurt you. you are right here. It may seem like it, but I dont believe most are.


Ill add one thing. The above makes me ponder the validity of the open marriage more and more as I get older. I always blew off the "humans arent meant to be monogamous" talk as people just wanting to bang others talk before. I guess I would listen to it now.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

All of those things are good lessons, brother.

The one lesson that I learned (in addition to what you posted) is that I can be a spouse that mirrors the quality of spousal service provided. In other words, if she doesn't feel bad over sex once or twice a month, she has little room to complain when I tell her "no" in regards to things that make her feel valued in the relationship.

Additionally, this is not done to get her to do more, nor to make her feel bad, but rather to reduce my resentment and use that time to pursue things I find fulfilling, plus it lowers the pressure on her to be sexual with me more frequently than she is comfortable.

It was literally the single most important thing I came to peace with in the process.


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## tigerlily99 (Nov 21, 2015)

Have you read Mating in Captivity? I see it recommended a lot in this forum, but always in reference to spicing thing up.

I recently finished reading it (actually listening on audible) and what really was fascinating to me was that Ester Perel really addresses a lot about sexual fantasy differences. She goes into a lot of detail about how to address these seemingly opposing preferences within a relationship. (Sexual Incompatibilities) 

As for your intro, what is it that is ‘incompatible’ between you and your H? You said “Your spouse desires intimacy with you but under terms you find hard to agree to.”
What does that mean for you guys?


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Married but Happy said:


> Those realizations are very insightful, @Cletus. However, what do you do with them, and the realization that you are fundamentally incompatible? You are dedicated to staying in your marriage. I would not be, once these facts become clear. If anything, they would be nearly decisive in making a decision to leave. In fact, they were.


You marriage, your choice. Acceptance doesn't necessarily imply that you really like the outcome, only that you come to peace with it. If you cannot, then this advice is not for you. Personally, and I can never say this to my wife, I would have never married her if I could have seen into the future. But that's not the same as saying I want out 5 or 10 or 30 years down the road.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

farsidejunky said:


> All of those things are good lessons, brother.
> 
> The one lesson that I learned (in addition to what you posted) is that I can be a spouse that mirrors the quality of spousal service provided. In other words, if she doesn't feel bad over sex once or twice a month, she has little room to complain when I tell her "no" in regards to things that make her feel valued in the relationship.
> 
> ...


As with any effective medicine, there are absolutely side-effects. One for us was that there is not very much routine physical contact in bed. No sense in firing up the ovens if you aren't going to bake some bread, and baking the same loaf day after day is boring. Just like you, this isn't done out of spite, but self preservation.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Cletus said:


> As with any effective medicine, there are absolutely side-effects. One for us was that there is not very much routine physical contact in bed. No sense in firing up the ovens if you aren't going to bake some bread, and baking the same loaf day after day is boring. Just like you, this isn't done out of spite, but self preservation.


I think it is part self preservation, but it is also me finding absolute joy in something outside of the marriage, without her. 

I used to try to find that joy in or with her. She honestly can't handle that. In her defense, I am pretty intense, so I imagine on some levels she is actually relieved at the space, even if she is frustrated with what she perceives as my lack of effort towards her.


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## GuyInColorado (Dec 26, 2015)

I can deal with a lot of B.S. in this crazy thing called life, but if I'm not getting laid by a hot sexy woman that desires me on a daily basis, then I'm looking for her replacement. One life. Don't live it with regrets. I lived a crappy life for 10+ years and fixed it with a divorce.

Do you work on yourself? In amazing shape? Attractive?


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

tigerlily99 said:


> Have you read Mating in Captivity? I see it recommended a lot in this forum, but always in reference to spicing thing up.


The inability to "spice things up" is pretty much exactly to what I'm referring. 



> As for your intro, what is it that is ‘incompatible’ between you and your H? You said “Your spouse desires intimacy with you but under terms you find hard to agree to.”
> What does that mean for you guys?


She is Plain Vanilla. 

Wife won't give or receive oral. She finds the very idea stomach churning. 
Wife does not like to be touched on the breasts or genitals
The entire universe of enjoyable sexual activity is PIV intercourse, face to face, lying down
Wife won't shower together or engage in mutual masturbation 
Sex toys are only allowed as long as they are a hands-off addition to PIV (think WeVibe)


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

farsidejunky said:


> I think it is part self preservation, but it is also me finding absolute joy in something outside of the marriage, without her.


We never had that problem. Our problem was always restricted to the one and only thing that you agree to do exclusively together after you take your vows.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

GuyInColorado said:


> I can deal with a lot of B.S. in this crazy thing called life, but if I'm not getting laid by a hot sexy woman that desires me on a daily basis, then I'm looking for her replacement. One life. Don't live it with regrets. I lived a crappy life for 10+ years and fixed it with a divorce.
> 
> Do you work on yourself? In amazing shape? Attractive?


I just celebrated 32 years married. In that time, I have been various levels of fit. I'm in better shape now than I have been in a couple of decades. I am as attractive as nature and a nice button-up will allow. 

But this isn't the problem. Put her in bed with Hugh Jackman, and the attitudes would still be the same. This is who she is, and at this point I have to refer back to the opening post. I am not in control of her sexual nature, neither explicitly nor implicitly.


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## Middle of Everything (Feb 19, 2012)

Cletus said:


> The inability to "spice things up" is pretty much exactly to what I'm referring.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Holy **** Cletus. I feel like an ass for complaining about my sex life now. 
Though I guess its all relative.


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## threelittlestars (Feb 18, 2016)

I wonder where i fall in all this. 

I have only ever been with one man. I loved sex, had it every SINGLE FREAKING DAY for about 8 years. Minus sick days and when i was on my period or too bloated from being pregnant, but if i wasn't one of those things i was up for it. 

Since my husbands infidelity I have much less desire. It's more scratching an itch than a meeting of minds and bodies like i thought it was before. I was once an enthusiastic bed mate... Now i'm much less. NOT to the point of being a cold fish, but maybe 6-10 times a month average now. 

I am not satisfied with my current sex life but adding more sex would make little difference to my lack of satisfaction. I neither feel sexy, or secure during sex so fun has all but been eliminated.

So it's like i have shifted to become more distant and unavailable. Not intending to be, just a byproduct of my recovery or lack there of.


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## 247769 (May 18, 2016)

True words have been spoken in this blog. I've learned also the low drive spouse is satisfied and feels no need to change and can't understand why the HD spouse is not satisfied. They're comfortable with sex being kept in their little box.

Thanks for starting this discussion

Sent from my XT1635-01 using Tapatalk


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

I think that an important point made is that you accepted things as they were and adjusted your own attitude as a result. Not all spouses would have chosen to do that. In effect, you molded yourself to her preferences, and willingly did away with yours.

I'd just caution losing your own identity for the sake of keeping the marriage intact. It may take time but you might come to resent your sacrifices in the future. Or you may not. Only time will tell.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Satya said:


> I think that an important point made is that you accepted things as they were and adjusted your own attitude as a result. Not all spouses would have chosen to do that. In effect, you molded yourself to her preferences, and willingly did away with yours.
> 
> I'd just caution losing your own identity for the sake of keeping the marriage intact. It may take time but you might come to resent your sacrifices in the future. Or you may not. Only time will tell.


This is an important point.

This is why whatever you fill your time with must be something you love. In my case, it is Jiu-Jitsu, Muay Thai, and MMA training. Frankly, if given the choice, most days I think I would rather do those things than have sex with her.

This makes the resentment minimal to non existent. However, if we have gone a month without sex, that may shift the other way.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Satya said:


> I think that an important point made is that you accepted things as they were and adjusted your own attitude as a result. Not all spouses would have chosen to do that. In effect, you molded yourself to her preferences, and willingly did away with yours.
> 
> .


Another term for that is "settling."

I don't necessarily mean that in a bad way. 

Marriage is a system of settling to a certain degree.

There are certain things that each individual can settle for and certain things they can't.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Cletus said:


> Anyone want to discuss this?
> 
> Many come to this site looking to fix an unsatisfying sex life. Sometimes the problems stem not from having a sexless marriage or an LD spouse, but from simply having an irreconcilable difference of opinion on what a satisfying sex life should contain. Your spouse desires intimacy with you, but under terms that you find hard to agree to.
> 
> ...


There is much wisdom in this post.


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## tigerlily99 (Nov 21, 2015)

Cletus said:


> The inability to "spice things up" is pretty much exactly to what I'm referring.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I’m not sure how but when I read your intro post I thought the problem was your spouse was into more kink than you felt comfortable with. Oops, sorry!!


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

Took me twenty years but I finally realized a couple things:

No matter what I did she was unarousable unless she decided it would happen.
It was all about control, she had to have it. 

As a result control she has, I'm out as far as initiating goes. 
Along the way I had to eventually make it perfectly clear that once or twice a month SUCKED (direct quote )


Passing 50 helps a lot, a fairly steady almost one a week, 3-4 a month, is tolerable.

Hell, once or twice she has done something which makes me realize she is taking it seriously.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

oldshirt said:


> Another term for that is "settling."
> 
> I don't necessarily mean that in a bad way.
> 
> ...


Another word for "settling" is compromise, with better connotations. 

Unless you hit the spouse lottery, you will certainly settle/compromise over many things in a long term marriage (duh - of course you know this). 

Just within my own family, I've watched spouses settle over mental illness, alcoholism, money, and near-fatal conservatism . I always try to remind myself that I come with some baggage too, and that I'm no special snow-flake entitled to having my every whim satisfied by the gods. 

I too would not settle for a sexless marriage, but one where my spouse is giving to the best of her ability? Yeah, I can find a way to cut some slack for that.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

anonmd said:


> Passing 50 helps a lot, a fairly steady almost one a week, 3-4 a month, is tolerable.
> 
> Hell, once or twice she has done something which makes me realize she is taking it seriously.


Yeah, passing 50 does help. I think. It's hard to tell. I suspect I could have A LOT more interest in sex with a more adventurous partner, but life doesn't give you double-blind experiments to run. Either way, between wanting it less and resenting it less, the burden is much lessened of late.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Whenever I read posts like this or read people describing their partner who thinks oral is disgusting or will only do one position under the blankets with lights off etc etc - I have to wonder if they have ever been with someone who was compatible or been with someone with whom the sex was good?

Are these people that married their first GF/BF and simply never knew any better? 

I mean once I got my first BJ, there was no way I would be with someone who thought it disgusting.

Someone that would only do missionary lights off would never get a follow-up date.

And frankly, I don't know how people can even get aroused enough for ANY position or any type of sex if no touching is allowed. 

I know there are traditional cultures out there that still practice arranged marriage and some people will disgrace their family and be kicked out of their families and communities if they do not comply with their arranged mate. But I am assuming most posters here are living in a modern, western culture where people choose their own mates.

Is this what happens when we marry our first 'real' GF/BF and simply do not know what else is out there? 

Is this what happens when we tell ourselves that romantic/sexual compatibility is expendable and a reasonable thing to sacrifice for other traits and characteristics in a partner?

I understand that some Bait-And-Switch happens in the world and I know that over time people's attractions and desires can change and decrease over the years.

But what about these people that NEVER had a good sex life and their partner was always inhibited and wouldn't step outside the missionary position box? 

On shows like Criminal Minds and CSI etc they always talk about victimology and finding the common link in the victims.

What is the victimology in people that accept and tolerate such glaring sexual incompatibility and chronic dissatisfaction? 

What makes them not only come back for seconds with someone that won't let them touch them sexually and find oral vulgar and only allow one position under certain specific conditions, but actually go on to marry them and knowingly commit to a lifetime of that frustration and despair?

And maybe an even bigger question is why does society seem to condone sacrificing sexual compatibility and sexual contentment?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Now that being said, I do think Cletus has shown remarkable self-reflection and much wisdom and enlightenment in his observations and assessments of his journey. 

I think there is much truth and reality in what he has said, so I am not meaning to make it sound like I am knocking or criticizing him personally.

I am just trying to understand how someone can knowingly accept and sacrifice their own sexuality like that.

If someone has had good oral sex, even have another date with someone who openly claims they find it distasteful (honestly, no pun intended) and openly states they will not do it? 

I can see if someone has never had it that they might not make the connection, but I am assuming most people have had at least some variety of sexual experiences prior to marriage. 

How can someone have even some average or even C- experiences and then go on marry into a D-?


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

oldshirt said:


> Whenever I read posts like this or read people describing their partner who thinks oral is disgusting or will only do one position under the blankets with lights off etc etc - I have to wonder if they have ever been with someone who was compatible or been with someone with whom the sex was good?


This is what happens when you insist on marriage before sex. You don't find out you're incompatible until the best you can hope for is an annulment. THAT is a mistake I caution everyone against, universally. 

I had a near-nymphomaniac girlfriend in high school who once opined that she was worried that she liked sex too much, so I know the alternative.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Cletus said:


> This is what happens when you insist on marriage before sex. You don't find out you're incompatible until the best you can hope for is an annulment. THAT is a mistake I caution everyone against, universally.
> 
> .


I also believe that indoctrinating people into total abstinence before marriage is wrong and doing them a huge disservice. 

I am absolutely not saying that people should screw half the town before marrying.

But I do believe that sexual compatibility is as important and critical as any other mate-Selection criteria. 

I also think that " till death do us part" is also wrong.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Cletus said:


> I had a near-nymphomaniac girlfriend in high school who once opined that she was worried that she liked sex too much, so I know the alternative.


That has to make it doubly tough.

I honestly think part if the reason for religious indoctrination of abstinence until marriage is so these dead fish and terrible lovers can marry and are not a burden on society.

You are either stronger and more principled than I or more gullible. 

I wouldn't be able to do it. I wouldn't be able to live like that.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Threads like this just kill me, because I think "sexual incompatibility" can account for some difficulties, but that the underlying and real problem is lack of communication and/or empathy. I'm not saying Cletus' wife is a bad person, but if she knew--really knew--the pain this has caused him over the years, and how hard he's had to work to get to the place of acceptance he has reached now, would she still not try to better meet his needs sexually?

I think we get stuck in our own experiences and perceptions, and it can be hard to step into someone else's shoes. I think many, many women don't "get" how very different men are, sexually (I also think many, many men don't "get" how women are, too.)

I don't blame Cletus for shifting into self-preservation mode and learning to find peace. As has been pointed out, long term commitment to one spouse requires compromise and the ability to be responsible for one's own happiness. However, I also think that staying open to the possibility of improving intimacy is important. Shutting down and turning away from that possibility seems dangerously close to letting a part of one's "emotional soul" die. 

Leave the door open just a crack, Cletus.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

GettingIt_2 said:


> Threads like this just kill me, because I think "sexual incompatibility" can account for some difficulties, but that the underlying and real problem is lack of communication and/or empathy. I'm not saying Cletus' wife is a bad person, but if she knew--really knew--the pain this has caused him over the years, and how hard he's had to work to get to the place of acceptance he has reached now, would she still not try to better meet his needs sexually?.


The need isn’t just physical, it’s also emotional. While a spouse can force herself to do the deed more often, she can’t make herself actually desire it more often.

If you’re satisfied with duty sex, great, but without genuine desire driving it I find it worse than no sex.

Bottom line: agreeing to more sex does not necessarily equate to meeting needs and what it takes to meet needs may not be possible.

Hence Cletus’ approach. It’s either do that... or divorce.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> The need isn’t just physical, it’s also emotional. While a spouse can force herself to do the deed more often, she can’t make herself actually desire it more often.
> 
> If you’re satisfied with duty sex, great, but without genuine desire driving it I find it worse than no sex.
> 
> ...


Agree.

Sexual incompatibility is not necessarily the same as "sexless marriage". 

If people are incompatible and not connecting sexually, the sex can often be awkward, lackluster and unsatisfying.

You can do it every day but it's still awkward, lackluster and unsatisfying. 

If you are with someone that doesn't like to be touched, hates oral and refuses anything but missionary under the blankets and watches the clock the whole time, that will be bad sex even if it is somewhat regular or even frequent.


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## Sbrown (Jul 29, 2012)

My wife went from sex crazed to don't touch me when she got pregnant, which by coincidence was about the time we got married. I understood, she's pregnant so I took care of myself until our son was born, ok son is born but she's nursing, ok I understand I can wait it out. We was still having sex just not the crazy animal drive sex if before. She nursed for about a year so at around 18 months I'm thinking things should be changing. 

I finally brought it up and got the typical response of "all you think about is sex!" I explained to her right then that sex is easy to get I have several exgfs that I could call and be having sex by the evening if I felt so inclined. And that me wanting to have sex with my wife is a great thing. 

The sex got better for a time and then started to wane again. We fought this for a couple of years. Finally one day she commented that her friend said her husband thinks shes boring in bed and my wife replied "so does mine." This comment and the flippant way they spoke of it really hit home for me and my response was "and you don't give a damn enough about us to change." Shook my head and walked away. From that moment on she has been as close to her old self as I think she can be. 

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

I agree.

I find it interesting that when I mention my own decision to adapt to my wife's particular tastes people usually cringe because her variance from normality is in a different direction. 

Good luck to you on your journey.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

GettingIt_2 said:


> Threads like this just kill me, because I think "sexual incompatibility" can account for some difficulties, but that the underlying and real problem is lack of communication and/or empathy. I'm not saying Cletus' wife is a bad person, but if she knew--really knew--the pain this has caused him over the years, and how hard he's had to work to get to the place of acceptance he has reached now, would she still not try to better meet his needs sexually?


That really depends on a person's sexual nature and their "giving" nature. If it causes a person more discomfort to meet a person's needs than their emotional makeup allows for, it's just not going to happen. That emotional state can be a result of years of miscommunication, or it can be because a person just isn't a giver. The wider the gap between the sexual nature of the two involved, the more pain it's going to cause to try to meet in the middle. For a woman like Cletus' wife, that would seem to be a pretty wide gulf. If she really knew the pain Cletus has been through, she still might not be able to meet him in the middle. That's when acceptance or divorce comes in.




GettingIt_2 said:


> I think we get stuck in our own experiences and perceptions, and it can be hard to step into someone else's shoes. I think many, many women don't "get" how very different men are, sexually (I also think many, many men don't "get" how women are, too.)
> 
> I don't blame Cletus for shifting into self-preservation mode and learning to find peace. As has been pointed out, long term commitment to one spouse requires compromise and the ability to be responsible for one's own happiness. However, I also think that staying open to the possibility of improving intimacy is important. Shutting down and turning away from that possibility seems dangerously close to letting a part of one's "emotional soul" die.
> 
> Leave the door open just a crack, Cletus.


Leaving the door open a crack is just enough to let the pain in, but not enough to ever improve intimacy. Door has to be wide open, or bolted shut. You have to be willing to eat the pain when you fling the door open long enough to see if it's workable. Otherwise, shutting the door is about the best option. And shutting the door doesn't have to mean living in pain--it can mean finding an alternative source of happiness. Sitting and waiting for your spouse to have their a-ha moment while you suffer is a bad plan.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Fozzy said:


> That really depends on a person's sexual nature and their "giving" nature. If it causes a person more discomfort to meet a person's needs than their emotional makeup allows for, it's just not going to happen. That emotional state can be a result of years of miscommunication, or it can be because a person just isn't a giver. The wider the gap between the sexual nature of the two involved, the more pain it's going to cause to try to meet in the middle. For a woman like Cletus' wife, that would seem to be a pretty wide gulf. If she really knew the pain Cletus has been through, she still might not be able to meet him in the middle. That's when acceptance or divorce comes in.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You know, I used to see it this way. I put a like on it because it's true I think in most cases.

I can't describe how relieving it was the moment that I realized I no longer needed my wife for anything. I initially thought that I would detach from her. And to some degree, I have. But really not enough that it's interfered with our emotional intimacy.

But then again, I couldn't exactly describe our relationship as amazing either. I think I would more describe it as decent with moments of greatness.

And you know what? That's okay too.


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

I haven't posted in a while here, but Cletus's opening post resonated with me because I feel sympathy for his wife. I imagine her feeling like she constantly disappoints him and that can lead to feeling conflicted about the whole sexual experience with him. Also, it is not as if she changed after marriage, she was like this the whole time they were together.

It reminds me of my situation, my hubby had numerous sexual experiences before he met me, I was a virgin until marriage. He could have married someone who he knew loved sex as much as him, evidently it was more important for him to feel that he was the only significant love interest in his future wife's life. That comes with its own risks, a person who stays a virgin up until 20 years old likely does not have a high libido. So, knowing this, he thought I would change after marriage. 26 years later I'm still LD, and he's disappointed.

I tell him everytime we have "that conversation" that he could have chose different.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

We often stay in hells of our own choosing. It can be for many reasons, good and bad - love, fear, duty, etc. But, it is a choice, and I respect a person's choice, even when I disagree with it. I've made my own choices, both good and bad, after all.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Fozzy said:


> That really depends on a person's sexual nature and their "giving" nature. If it causes a person more discomfort to meet a person's needs than their emotional makeup allows for, it's just not going to happen. That emotional state can be a result of years of miscommunication, or it can be because a person just isn't a giver. The wider the gap between the sexual nature of the two involved, the more pain it's going to cause to try to meet in the middle. For a woman like Cletus' wife, that would seem to be a pretty wide gulf. If she really knew the pain Cletus has been through, she still might not be able to meet him in the middle. That's when acceptance or divorce comes in.


She might not be able to meet him in the middle as far as their sex life/sexual activity goes, but I do think that compassion for the pain of someone you truly love and care for can go along way. I don't know if Cletus feels like his wife really "gets" what it has required of him to stay in the marriage. I strongly suspect she doesn't realize that he wouldn't marry her again, knowing what he now knows. 

I'm not advocating for him to tell her those things, but I think an argument can be made here that part of the divide between them is lack of that sort of deep understanding of the experience of the "other." 



Fozzy said:


> Leaving the door open a crack is just enough to let the pain in, but not enough to ever improve intimacy. Door has to be wide open, or bolted shut. You have to be willing to eat the pain when you fling the door open long enough to see if it's workable. Otherwise, shutting the door is about the best option. And shutting the door doesn't have to mean living in pain--it can mean finding an alternative source of happiness. Sitting and waiting for your spouse to have their a-ha moment while you suffer is a bad plan.


Again, this just kills me. It's not that I don't understand why an individual would choose this route, but if one day Cleatus' wife--or yours for that matter--would have an epiphany, it might not matter, because she no longer has a "way in" with him. When I say "leave the door open a crack," I don't mean as a means to improve intimacy, but as a way to remain open to the possibility. 

I know a lot of my feelings on this is projection, because I don't for one day forget how close I came to having a husband who shut the door. I am constantly reminded when I visit this forum of what could have been.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

techmom said:


> I haven't posted in a while here, but Cletus's opening post resonated with me because I feel sympathy for his wife. I imagine her feeling like she constantly disappoints him and that can lead to feeling conflicted about the whole sexual experience with him. Also, it is not as if she changed after marriage, she was like this the whole time they were together.
> 
> It reminds me of my situation, my hubby had numerous sexual experiences before he met me, I was a virgin until marriage. He could have married someone who he knew loved sex as much as him, evidently it was more important for him to feel that he was the only significant love interest in his future wife's life. That comes with its own risks, a person who stays a virgin up until 20 years old likely does not have a high libido. So, knowing this, he thought I would change after marriage. 26 years later I'm still LD, and he's disappointed.
> 
> I tell him everytime we have "that conversation" that he could have chose different.



Have you ever really tried to find out why you are LD? Can you organism? Have you ever invested in your sexuality or been a little selfish about your sex?


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Everyone gets to decide what they want in life. Would you consider your marriage a good one?

I assume she was willing to do the tests and is attracted to you? Not sure if you can truly know this.


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## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

farsidejunky said:


> You know, I used to see it this way. I put a like on it because it's true I think in most cases.
> 
> I can't describe how relieving it was the moment that I realized I no longer needed my wife for anything. I initially thought that I would detach from her. And to some degree, I have. But really not enough that it's interfered with our emotional intimacy.
> 
> ...


Once again Far, there's much truth in your words.

Same here, when things were ****ty between us, I found that I could throw myself into to my work and get just about as much enjoyment out of life as I got at home. That is what I not so kindly refer to as our "dark ages". Even after things turned around somewhat, things have never been what I would call outstanding. Much like your description, I would say it's been OK with very brief flashes of great.

I delt with the anxieties of my marriage. Most of the time I self soothed quite productively, but of course I had my moments. One in particular that really stood out to me, was an argument we were having and she was on my ass. I told her straight up, I have given you just about everything I know to give you. I agreed to children when I knew at a young age that I never wanted any. I have you not one, but 4 houses. I gave you the vehicles you have wanted. You are a stay at home mom even though that goes against everything I believe in. It's quite obvious I can not make you happy, and I'm ****ing done trying. The only person that can make you happy is you! Her mouth hit the floor, but she never said another word about it. 

Here about 5 years ago I happened to be on a home trip as my work takes me away for 300+ days a year. She had finished dinner and was doing something and I finished up and cleaned up my spot at the table and put my dinner stuff in the sink as she came into the dining room/kitchen area. She made the comment that she would have gotten that for me and I replied in a calm matter of fact tone, I understand but I'm a big boy. I can take care of myself. She said, maybe that's the problem, maybe I need you to need me. I told her, I can appreciate that and can understand it, but I have had to deal with my anxieties over the years and I'm sorry but I think this is just something you are going to have to figure out on your own. 

Calling her a couple years ago from the hospital bed in the middle of my heart attack was messed up and I apologized for that. I just wanted to tell her I loved her if things went shiny side down. She was pissed that I didn't want her to come to the hospital until they released me, but I'm not a cripple and I really don't let anyone take care of me. Besides, it was 4 hours from home and she has the kids and a home business to take care of, so it seemed like a waste of time to me. 

I'm now at the point in my life that I'm more focused on me and what I want. Don't get me wrong, I support her in every way I can, but I definitely don't go overboard, if that makes any sense? Kempo and BJJ, along with punishing myself at the gym are where I focus my time when I'm not working. It's not like I have anything else to do out on the road. Lol.

Sorry, I'm rambling. 
Emotional intimacy?
What's that?
Lol.


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## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

GettingIt_2 said:


> I know a lot of my feelings on this is projection, because I don't for one day forget how close I came to having a husband who shut the door. I am constantly reminded when I visit this forum of what could have been.


I can appreciate where you are coming from, I really do.
Some folks just don't the same breaks. It is however, very refreshing that you "Get it" and are cognizant of that second chance.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I generally have sympathy for both parties. I think I'm not alone in taking so long to realize that sexual incompatibility is so basic and so difficult to fix. I think a lot of people get into marriages just assuming that things will get better (what ever that means to them). Then after years of trying they are too attached to just leave and find someone else. 




techmom said:


> I haven't posted in a while here, but Cletus's opening post resonated with me because I feel sympathy for his wife. I imagine her feeling like she constantly disappoints him and that can lead to feeling conflicted about the whole sexual experience with him. Also, it is not as if she changed after marriage, she was like this the whole time they were together.
> 
> It reminds me of my situation, my hubby had numerous sexual experiences before he met me, I was a virgin until marriage. He could have married someone who he knew loved sex as much as him, evidently it was more important for him to feel that he was the only significant love interest in his future wife's life. That comes with its own risks, a person who stays a virgin up until 20 years old likely does not have a high libido. So, knowing this, he thought I would change after marriage. 26 years later I'm still LD, and he's disappointed.
> 
> I tell him everytime we have "that conversation" that he could have chose different.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

For me what eventually happened was I detached and built my own life. We do very little together and I feel no need to accommodate any of her needs. I also find myself wondering what she really contributes. It’s definitely not an equal partnership. Her financial contribution is negligible, as is her sexual contribution. I cook for myself and don’t really care about cleaning. We do very little together. I suppose she does the laundry but I’m not convinced that’s worth half my income. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

If I were to describe my relationship to be one fraught with the challenge of "sexual incompatibility", I'm out. I don't care how many years invested - hopefully not many because I'd have discovered it early enough.

But that's just because it's something I know I can't and won't tolerate long term. If it was a sudden change later in marriage, and my husband no longer wanted sex with me, same outcome. I'd be gone. I need meaningful, intense sex from my partner. Because that's how I love and bond. 

Cletus has chosen to accept his situation, after all of his attempted solutions. For him, the priorities have shifted because he has made a conscious choice. I personally can't agree with it but I do have to respect it and respect that it's his life. After reading a lot of his posts, I can see that his attitude about the situation has changed and he's reached an acceptance mode. (For what it's worth, I have sympathy even if he maybe doesn't want it.) 

If this post is meant to serve as advice and guidelines, then my (admittedly) opinionated input would be, don't accept sexual incompatibility if sexual compatibility is important to you. Ever. No matter how great other things are.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Satya said:


> If I were to describe my relationship to be one fraught with the challenge of "sexual incompatibility", I'm out. I don't care how many years invested - hopefully not many because I'd have discovered it early enough.
> 
> But that's just because it's something I know I can't and won't tolerate long term. If it was a sudden change later in marriage, and my husband no longer wanted sex with me, same outcome. I'd be gone. I need meaningful, intense sex from my partner. Because that's how I love and bond.
> 
> ...


I agree with you. However, I have a question!

What if, for example, your husband reached his seventies and *due to aging* had a biiiiiiig slow down in his natural interest in and passion in sex? He engages in sexual kinds of activities with you because he knows it's important to bond, but due to his biology now, it's not intense, he doesn't feel sexual desire and urgency and enthusiasm like he used to. It's a pleasant experience for him emotionally, but not needed very much physically. What would you do in that case?


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

Livvie said:


> I agree with you. However, I have a question!
> 
> What if, for example, your husband reached his seventies and *due to aging* had a biiiiiiig slow down in his natural interest in and passion in sex? *He engages in sexual kinds of activities with you because he knows it's important to bond*, but due to his biology now, it's not intense, he doesn't feel sexual desire and urgency and enthusiasm like he used to. It's a pleasant experience for him emotionally, but not needed very much physically. What would you do in that case?


In this case, he is still trying to do his best to bond with you in the ways that he can. I'm talking about a willing and conscious "shut down" in the sexual needs department.

Odo says he'll take Viagra, get a mechanical tongue, and a penis pump if necessary to keep me bonded to him. That tells me that he desires to do all that he can because he loves and cares. That's enough. If he were to tell me "when my penis stops working that's the end of sex" without even a thought to solutions or other methods of intimacy, that's when I'd have an issue.

You can see a thread I started about some medically instructed downtime from sex that we had to endure at the end of 2017, for about 3.5 months. I asked the forum to help me with ideas to keep the intimacy flowing without sex, and we were successful thanks to the feedback. That was a willingness on both our parts to ensure that our needs were met as far as we were capable under the circumstances.

(Not trying to t/j, just referencing..)


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Satya said:


> Livvie said:
> 
> 
> > I agree with you. However, I have a question!
> ...


That's wonderful to have a partner who thinks it's important to keep up that kind of a bond and to be open to different ways of making that happen.

But, what if the PASSION behind it all is missing? A "Hypothetical He" is willing to engage, but really the sexual activity is akin to brushing your hair or rubbing your back to him because his libido has naturally changed?

How does one survive that kind of sexual incompatibility?


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

It feels like there is a misunderstanding here by some.

When I say that I have come to a place of acceptance, I do not preface it with the "grim" adjective. The point I think I am trying to make is that it was my struggle against a warped perception of reality that caused a lot of the angst. Always thinking that my partner was holding something back, or a control freak, or just plain broken. That's hard to live with, because you believe that your spouse is in active control over her inability to meet your sexual needs. That if you only could find a way to state the problem, she would have an "Aha!" moment. This was my part of creating my own dissatisfaction. 

To me, acceptance means what I claimed in the first post. That these things are not very much in my wife's control. It is unfair to lay the blame for our issues solely at her feet - we are an intertwined system. Letting go of the feeling that your partner is being selfish and unaccommodating relieves you of much of the pain in thinking that she doesn't love you enough or isn't sexually attracted enough to you to try harder. 

This in turn takes away much of the suffering. 

Yes, my sex life will never be what I would choose in a perfect world. But I'm not in a sexless marriage, there is no lack of intimacy in what we can do together, and learning to enjoy what you have rather than constantly pine for what you do not is to come to a better place. If you have to be sad, then be sad. If you have to get out, then do that too. But stop being unrealistic or angry at another person for being the only person they can realistically be. 

No, I'm not advocating anyone else make this or any other choice. But I would warn those coming here trying to change a sexual incompatibility issue by changing their spouse - a rarely successful effort, if this forum is any indication. Your best path forward might be to direct your efforts inward if you think your relationship is otherwise worth keeping.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

Livvie said:


> That's wonderful to have a partner who thinks it's important to keep up that kind of a bond and to be open to different ways of making that happen.
> 
> But, what if the PASSION behind it all is missing? A "Hypothetical He" is willing to engage, but really the sexual activity is akin to brushing your hair or rubbing your back to him because his libido has naturally changed?
> 
> How does one survive that kind of sexual incompatibility?


 @Livvie, in that case, I would strongly recommend something like sex therapy. If both partners are willing to really be open to receiving advice and help, then there are all kinds of ways that they can learn to better hone the intimacy and get passion back.

Some men (and women) are not as in-tune with their sexuality as others, or repress it (or are afraid... nervous). If that's what you're referring to, then there are exercises you can do as a couple to bolster confidence and create an atmosphere of comfort and intimacy.


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## Where there's a will (Feb 10, 2014)

If only I knew at 18 or whatever, what I know now! Cant beat myself up about it but it is playing out like a long term cancer for many of us. Differential desire was never on the radar or didnt seem to matter back then. I had no idea and no one told me that what turns out to be ' the girlfriend experience' isnt the long term scenario. I sometimes wonder if I had known then what I know now would I have believed it? And also would I have sacrificed all the other positives to make it the deal breaker?
I find it impossible to separate sexual desire from love, in other words if I am not desired then I am not loved, Im sure I am not alone in this but it tends to play increasing importance with age. I cant understand why it didnt matter so much in the early days?


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

Cletus said:


> It feels like there is a misunderstanding here by some.
> 
> When I say that I have come to a place of acceptance, I do not preface it with the "grim" adjective. The point I think I am trying to make is that it was my struggle against a warped perception of reality that caused a lot of the angst. Always thinking that my partner was holding something back, or a control freak, or just plain broken. That's hard to live with, because you believe that your spouse is in active control over her inability to meet your sexual needs. That if you only could find a way to state the problem, she would have an "Aha!" moment. This was my part of creating my own dissatisfaction.
> 
> ...


It's good that you clarified your stance.
I think that the majority of advice given on the forum is to not even attempt to change someone else - only yourself.
In that respect, it seems that's precisely what you did and were able to find a new acceptance.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Satya said:


> It's good that you clarified your stance.
> I think that the majority of advice given on the forum is to not even attempt to change someone else - only yourself.
> In that respect, it seems that's precisely what you did and were able to find a new acceptance.


I do think a lot of the advice to change oneself has, as its end goal, engendering a resultant change in someone else. I see this as the opposite of what Cletus says. If I am more attractive, s/he will... If I stop being a Nice Guy, s/he will... There are many possible reasons for sexual dysfunction in a marriage. What Cletus describes is one of them. Every marriage is better when you learn you cannot make someone into what they are not.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

techmom said:


> I haven't posted in a while here, but Cletus's opening post resonated with me because I feel sympathy for his wife. I imagine her feeling like she constantly disappoints him and that can lead to feeling conflicted about the whole sexual experience with him. Also, it is not as if she changed after marriage, she was like this the whole time they were together.


Yes. 



> It reminds me of my situation, my hubby had numerous sexual experiences before he met me, I was a virgin until marriage. He could have married someone who he knew loved sex as much as him, evidently it was more important for him to feel that he was the only significant love interest in his future wife's life. That comes with its own risks, a person who stays a virgin up until 20 years old likely does not have a high libido. So, knowing this, he thought I would change after marriage. 26 years later I'm still LD, and he's disappointed.
> 
> I tell him everytime we have "that conversation" that he could have chose different.


Young and naive, I suffered from the same problem that gets displayed here more than just about any other - over generalization from your personal experiences to the rest of the world. I liked sex. My previous girlfriends liked sex - one perhaps too much, in fact. Didn't everyone like sex? Wasn't everyone interested in discovering everything there was to know about the topic? Of course, so would my new wife. I wasn't expecting her to change after marriage - I had no idea that anyone had these attitudes in the first place.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Satya said:


> Livvie said:
> 
> 
> > That's wonderful to have a partner who thinks it's important to keep up that kind of a bond and to be open to different ways of making that happen.
> ...


I guess I'm not thinking about repression and the like. Rather, a decease in passion and sexuality due to age. A man who just isn't much into sex anymore, could take it or leave it (but does it for his partner to keep the bond). And because of this, sexual encounters aren't intense or passionate or sexual ON HIS PART, just... loving. An age related decrease that can't be fixed by therapy because it's naturally just biological. That kind of sexual incompatibility. How does one cope with that?

ETA I think many problems about sexual incompatibility discussed on this forum fall into this category, maybe perhaps OP, in having a spouse who naturally doesn't have a passionate sex drive....


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> I do think a lot of the advice to change oneself has, as its end goal, engendering a resultant change in someone else. I see this as the opposite of what Cletus says. If I am more attractive, s/he will... If I stop being a Nice Guy, s/he will... There are many possible reasons for sexual dysfunction in a marriage. What Cletus describes is one of them. Every marriage is better when you learn you cannot make someone into what they are not.


Yes. Do the 180. Hit the gym. Stop meeting her needs if she won't meet yours. Detach.

These are all designed to ultimately get your spouse to either "up her game" or to give you the pretext to say "I did what I could, now I can leave". It's what I was looking for when I arrived. 

Acceptance requires you to determine that change is unlikely, impossible, or too burdensome to attempt. Real psychological change is particularly hard when you're talking about tastes and attitudes. Our personalities are remarkably stable over time. If it can't happen, you only eat yourself up inside hoping that it will.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

I think many sexual problems discussed on this forum, and maybe OPs situation fall into this category, a spouse who naturally organically doesn't have passion for sex. It's a difficult situation.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Double post


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Cletus said:


> Yes. Do the 180. Hit the gym. Stop meeting her needs if she won't meet yours. Detach.
> 
> These are all designed to ultimately get your spouse to either "up her game" or to give you the pretext to say "I did what I could, now I can leave". It's what I was looking for when I arrived.
> 
> Acceptance requires you to determine that change is unlikely, impossible, or too burdensome to attempt. Real psychological change is particularly hard when you're talking about *tastes and attitudes. Our personalities* are remarkably stable over time. If it can't happen, you only eat yourself up inside hoping that it will.


The rub is knowing whether you are dealing with tastes and personalities. I don't, personally, think attitudes are that hard to change. For ME, I presented a certain way when we were first married that looked a lot like tastes and personalities. Many people would have even seen a classic bait and switch. Luckily my husband was able to draw me out over time. Had it been a true matter of personality, it would have ended badly. Either way, if he had chosen 180 and detach, we would have been over well before we had really started.


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## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

"Yes. Do the 180. Hit the gym. Stop meeting her needs if she won't meet yours. Detach.

These are all designed to ultimately get your spouse to either "up her game" or to give you the pretext to say "I did what I could, now I can leave". It's what I was looking for when I arrived."

Thank goodness not everyone looks at things the same way. All those things are called getting a life, at least in my opinion.

The one thing I have heard numerous times in this forum holds true to the very end. You have just a couple of choices in a relationship with sexual incompatiblity. 

You either stay and accept it, and find a way to make things work.

Or

You go your separate ways.

You can not change your partner, nor can you make them want to change. We see this in action many times on this forum. This simple truth hasn't changed, nor will it.

Just my lowly opinion.


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

sokillme said:


> Have you ever really tried to find out why you are LD? Can you organism? Have you ever invested in your sexuality or been a little selfish about your sex?


This is my nature, LDs can and do orgasm, it doesn't mean that we want it at a high frequency.

I can ask the same for HDs, why are you the way you are, why are you selfish and want more sex than your partner desires? Can't you just accept us the way we are?


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## Spicy (Jun 18, 2016)

It’s almost like...the answer to every post on here could be: “It all depends on what you are willing to tolerate.” 

That’s what it boils down to most of the time, isn’t it?


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

Cletus said:


> Yes.
> 
> 
> 
> Young and naive, I suffered from the same problem that gets displayed here more than just about any other - over generalization from your personal experiences to the rest of the world. I liked sex. My previous girlfriends liked sex - one perhaps too much, in fact. Didn't everyone like sex? Wasn't everyone interested in discovering everything there was to know about the topic? Of course, so would my new wife. I wasn't expecting her to change after marriage - I had no idea that anyone had these attitudes in the first place.


This sounds like my hubby, he could not fathom why a person would not want sex frequently, he thought there was something wrong with me that he could fix. Problem with that is that type of mindset actually undermined my own efforts to let my sexuality unfold at its own pace, having no previous sexual relationships this was my first go around. He wanted me to grow and discover my sexuality on his schedule and in his way, it doesn't work that way, each person finds this on their own.

According to him, everyone was HD, I find that most HDs have this mentality of " well it feels so good why not want more?". They pry and push, this has the opposite effect from what they want.

I never had the "aha" moment, only the despair of being blamed for failing in this one area he finds so important. This does not encourage me to learn more about sex, I originally came here to find out what HDs really think about their spouses and it is not comforting.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

techmom said:


> This is my nature, LDs can and do orgasm, it doesn't mean that we want it at a high frequency.
> 
> I can ask the same for HDs, why are you the way you are, why are you selfish and want more sex than your partner desires? Can't you just accept us the way we are?


OK so this and your other posts really made me feel for you, so I wrote this crazy long winded post. I think this is where the disconnect is, you think we want sex only to get off. 

At least for me my desire to have sex with my wife is much more then that, it's because sex helps me feel connected to her and I love her. Really one of the primary desires in my life is to feel close to her. Isn't that everyone? When I don't have sex it makes me feel physically, personally, and I believe spiritually disconnected to her after a while. It is hard to feel like that. Imagine if you longed for a connection with your spouse whatever it was, maybe communicative, maybe emotional, or physical and they told you that is was just not that important to them and why can't you just get over it. This is actually a painful thing to hear. Yes it works like that, imagine if you and your husband never had intense conversation, you were starved for intimate conversation and he said to you, I just don't feel like talking why can't you just lay off. My feeling would be, here is an area were we can experience another level of intimacy, why don't you want that? Worse to ascribe that feeling to selfishness is just too much. This is why people write post like OP. They are literally starving. 

I mean I get it, it's not your thing. Right now it doesn't feel natural, it's out of your comfort zone. However I look at it like this, for my wife, having a house that is immaculate every two weeks is not my thing either. Like I don't think it matters if the house is swept every week. However I am empathetic that it makes HER feel grounded and safe. I don't get it on an emotional level but she does. So when she cleans I volunteer to sweep and mop. I am attuned to her enough emotionally to get that doing that really gives her a better quality of life. I love her part of that makes me want to serve her, provide for her. She does so much to make my life better, things I wouldn't even think about, this is a way I can thank her. A way by serving her I endear myself to her. It's an opportunity to show love. 

Another example would be her cooking shows. I grew up with a mother who didn't cook and no one in my family cared about the technique of cooking. I love food but the science of how it is made is lost on me, or at least it was. My wife because of her culture has always been very interested. To the point that for years she has read, and watched tons of instruction about that. So I decided to participate in that with her. I would sit and listen and try to figure out why this was important to people. I don't get it but obviously others were into it so there had to be a reason. Soon enough I grew to see why people got into it. Now I see the skill and creativity that it takes. I can hold my own at the dinner table with my in-laws where food is a big topic of conversation. My wife and I have another area where we can discuss and bond over. Honestly taking this tact has enriched my life.

I read your post on this thread and I am sympathetic. Honestly we let you down. 



> I imagine her feeling like she constantly disappoints him and that can lead to feeling conflicted about the whole sexual experience with him. Also, it is not as if she changed after marriage, she was like this the whole time they were together.
> 
> It reminds me of my situation, my hubby had numerous sexual experiences before he met me, I was a virgin until marriage. He could have married someone who he knew loved sex as much as him, evidently it was more important for him to feel that he was the only significant love interest in his future wife's life. That comes with its own risks, a person who stays a virgin up until 20 years old likely does not have a high libido. So, knowing this, he thought I would change after marriage. 26 years later I'm still LD, and he's disappointed.


I don't think you are LD, I think you are struggling with feelings of inadequacy. This leads you to be defensive. I think that maybe you have some anxiety about sex because of the reasonable fear of being compared to others he has had sex with. Honestly maybe you would have been better suited to marry someone who felt more about sex the way you did, with less experience. This is not me blaming you. I also think that you suffer because your husband is not very effectively communicative and has not be able to express to you what I have no doubt he is feeling. He may not even really understand what it is that drives him to want to have sex with you, but I guarantee that it is a lot more then getting off. Guys who just want to get off end up just using porn. They don't push for sex with their wives. 

Sex for most men is a direct avenue to intimacy, sex leads to bonding for us. We really do work physical to emotional, just like most women work emotional to physical. I personally believe marriages work better when both spouses work to sacrificially offer avenues for intimacy that may not be primarily the way they would want receive it. I must give my wife nourishment where she needs it, not where I need it. Even if it is not in my nature. My nature doesn't matter when I am providing for her. This is not always easy at first. It's wonderful though when you do it. 

Reading all your posts on this thread even ones under this one here, may I suggest that you read some of the stuff posted on this site with an open heart? I think you will be better served. I get that you feel let down by your husband and I am sorry that he can't communicate well enough to help you feel empathetic to his point of view. Sadly like most men I feel he has been let down by a culture that failed him. One that never believed in his gender enough to take the time to teach him how to emotionally communicate, or even be emotionally introspective. If anything maybe forgive him for that. 

_Deep breath_ 

Ok that was a long post. I don't think you even know if you are LD or not and that makes me sad. I think your marriage suffers mostly from a lack of communication.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

As a HD it is very difficult to imagine being LD. To me sex is just.... good - in lots of ways. Its fun, it creates feelings of closeness. Its healthy and not fattening. Its just seems like such an overall good thing that I honestly can't imagine not wanting sex with someone I loved. 

I understand that isn't the case for some people. I believe it. I just can't imagine being in the mind set where that is true. 




techmom said:


> This sounds like my hubby, he could not fathom why a person would not want sex frequently, he thought there was something wrong with me that he could fix. Problem with that is that type of mindset actually undermined my own efforts to let my sexuality unfold at its own pace, having no previous sexual relationships this was my first go around. He wanted me to grow and discover my sexuality on his schedule and in his way, it doesn't work that way, each person finds this on their own.
> 
> According to him, everyone was HD, I find that most HDs have this mentality of " well it feels so good why not want more?". They pry and push, this has the opposite effect from what they want.
> 
> I never had the "aha" moment, only the despair of being blamed for failing in this one area he finds so important. This does not encourage me to learn more about sex, I originally came here to find out what HDs really think about their spouses and it is not comforting.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

sokillme said:


> OK so this and your other posts really made me feel for you, so I wrote this crazy long winded post. I think this is where the disconnect is, you think we want sex only to get off.
> 
> At least for me my desire to have sex with my wife is much more then that, it's because sex helps me feel connected to her and I love her. Really one of the primary desires in my life is to feel close to her. Isn't that everyone? When I don't have sex it makes me feel physically, personally, and I believe spiritually disconnected to her after a while. It is hard to feel like that. Imagine if you longed for a connection with your spouse whatever it was, maybe communicative, maybe emotional, or physical and they told you that is was just not that important to them and why can't you just get over it. This is actually a painful thing to hear. Yes it works like that, imagine if you and your husband never had intense conversation, you were starved for intimate conversation and he said to you, I just don't feel like talking why can't you just lay off. My feeling would be, here is an area were we can experience another level of intimacy, why don't you want that? Worse to ascribe that feeling to selfishness is just too much. This is why people write post like OP. They are literally starving.
> 
> ...


This post illustrates one of the main problems in sexual incompatibility. Basically, an HD simply assumes that a self professed LD is just lying or ignorant about themselves.

Tech mom has been around for awhile and has bravely joined in threads like these over the years in order to help others here understand the LD perspective. And almost every single time she does this, someone responds to tell her that's she's mistaken about what she knows about herself and if only she would try something different she would find that she is HD.

This is why she rarely bothers to post. It's always the same.

Cletus has moved beyond that type of thinking and now accepts that his wife is LD and isn't trying to change her anymore. That's largely the point of his thread.

But there will always be some people pushing back and refusing to believe that being LD is even a thing. Which to me is very bizarre. I'm HD and yet it's always been clear to me that not everyone is HD. I don't know why it's hard for some HD people to get this. Is it because if you accept that being LD is a thing, then you'll have to give up hope on ever having the sex life you want (assuming you have an LD spouse?)

It doesn't matter if you believe it or not, being in denial of reality won't bring you any closer to the sex life you want. Actually understanding and accepting your LD spouse as they are is really the only thing you can do that won't make you crazy. Ignoring reality and ignoring your spouse's real and valid POV is just digging your own grave faster.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Cletus said:


> It feels like there is a misunderstanding here by some.
> 
> When I say that I have come to a place of acceptance, I do not preface it with the "grim" adjective. The point I think I am trying to make is that it was my struggle against a warped perception of reality that caused a lot of the angst. Always thinking that my partner was holding something back, or a control freak, or just plain broken. That's hard to live with, because you believe that your spouse is in active control over her inability to meet your sexual needs. That if you only could find a way to state the problem, she would have an "Aha!" moment. This was my part of creating my own dissatisfaction.
> 
> ...


Acceptance without blame is something that can be freeing in a lot of ways. The ability to accept without rancor the things that give us pain is something that, IMO, is necessary to have peace in long term, committed relationships. 

But acceptance can bring a new sort of loss, though--that of hope. 

I guess it's something I'll have to think about a little more. My own marriage has transformed dramatically over the past five years, in no small part because my husband I have learned to place less pressure on one another for our happiness. Part of that has been learning acceptance in exactly the way that Cletus describes. 

However . . . . I hate it when I suspect my husband has accepted something in an area that, at one time, he had hoped to see change in. I feel like . . . he has taken something from me, from the marriage. I suppose I feel robbed of opportunity, or perhaps it's that I feel he's somehow judged me "not capable," and I rail against that. At any rate, it's at this time that I often find the motivation to work harder on finding a way to give him the thing that he has "accepted" that I can not give him. 

I wonder: has Cletus' wife noticed anything? How does it make her feel?


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## Malaise (Aug 8, 2012)

techmom said:


> This is my nature, LDs can and do orgasm, it doesn't mean that we want it at a high frequency.
> 
> I can ask the same for HDs, why are you the way you are, why are you selfish and want more sex than your partner desires? Can't you just accept us the way we are?


We would if we had known before marriage and not having it kept hidden ( bait and switch )


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

sokillme said:


> OK so this and your other posts really made me feel for you, so I wrote this crazy long winded post. I think this is where the disconnect is, you think we want sex only to get off.
> 
> At least for me my desire to have sex with my wife is much more then that, it's because sex helps me feel connected to her and I love her. Really one of the primary desires in my life is to feel close to her. Isn't that everyone? When I don't have sex it makes me feel physically, personally, and I believe spiritually disconnected to her after a while. It is hard to feel like that. Imagine if you longed for a connection with your spouse whatever it was, maybe communicative, maybe emotional, or physical and they told you that is was just not that important to them and why can't you just get over it. This is actually a painful thing to hear. Yes it works like that, imagine if you and your husband never had intense conversation, you were starved for intimate conversation and he said to you, I just don't feel like talking why can't you just lay off. My feeling would be, here is an area were we can experience another level of intimacy, why don't you want that? Worse to ascribe that feeling to selfishness is just too much. This is why people write post like OP. They are literally starving.
> 
> ...


I quoted your post to illustrate how HDs have no idea how to accept anything other than HD, there is no such thing as LD as far as they are concerned. Faithful Wife, thanks for your post defending my position, seems as if the only valid sexuality is HD.

If HDs would just listen and learn from us then maybe they will gain perspective on their own sexuality. Now, I see why there are rarely LDs who post here on a consistent basis, this is an exercise in patience.

You say that I am not LD, who are you to tell me that? You don't know me or my life. I personally think that most men are not as HD as they think they are, they use sex as a crutch to express their emotional selves. So, you really don't want to have sex, you just need to be emotionally fulfilled, there are many other ways to gain emotional fulfillment.

LDs have an identity as much as HDs do, it is as much a part of us as your identity is a part of you. Society pushes sex as a bandaid for all of our inner emptyness and lonliness that anyone who does not follow that crowd is ostracized and perceived as not normal. There are other sexual desire levels besides high, and all of them are normal.

Again, thanks Faithful Wife for your post.


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

Malaise said:


> We would if we had known before marriage and not having it kept hidden ( bait and switch )


FYI, this thread is not referring to bait and switch, this is referring to HD people who marry a LD person knowing that they are LD but hoping they will change after marriage. Cletus's wife was fully honest about her desire level (or lack thereof), and so was I, our partners were hoping that it would change somehow.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

sokillme said:


> I don't think you are LD, I think you are struggling with feelings of inadequacy.


This has to be the most patronizing and nauseating thing I've read here in a while. I'll refrain from lashing out at you, but really.


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## 247769 (May 18, 2016)

I find it interesting how defensive this topic makes us. I think this condition exist because two people who love each other have mismatched sex drives. If the love wasn't there they would divorce and seek another partner. But because they love each other they stick with it and seek ways to reach a compromise and ultimately happiness. Each couple has different dynamics and what works for one won't work for the other. 
The issue is, a thirsty person thinks about water constantly while a person not thirty doesn't, that's the problem, you want what you can't have IMHO.

Sent from my XT1635-01 using Tapatalk


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## Malaise (Aug 8, 2012)

techmom said:


> FYI, this thread is not referring to bait and switch, this is referring to HD people who marry a LD person knowing that they are LD but hoping they will change after marriage. Cletus's wife was fully honest about her desire level (or lack thereof), and so was I, our partners were hoping that it would change somehow.


Respect for disclosing prior. Unfortunately, not all do.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Faithful Wife said:


> This post illustrates one of the main problems in sexual incompatibility. Basically, an HD simply assumes that a self professed LD is just lying or ignorant about themselves.
> 
> Tech mom has been around for awhile and has bravely joined in threads like these over the years in order to help others here understand the LD perspective. And almost every single time she does this, someone responds to tell her that's she's mistaken about what she knows about herself and if only she would try something different she would find that she is HD.
> 
> ...


I tend to think of sex like I wrote, you do many things in marriage that may not be your first thought, you may not even desire to do them but you try because that is marriage. I see it the same way as a women who marries the guy who plays video games all night, every night. That just make him a crappy husband. I would say the same for a wife who never has sex with her husband desire to do so or not. She is just a crappy wife, especially if the reason is because she doesn't feel like it. I'm sure the guy playing video games doesn't really feel like hanging out with his wife at that moment. What's the difference because it sex? 

Physical intimacy is for most people pretty much one of the primary staples of marriage. Since when is desire the total motive providing one of those things. Guess the answer is to just divorce and move on seems a shame but in the end, I'm fine with that. 

If this is the case then I agree with the other posters, LD should make it plain that sex is really only on the table as much once they get married and will only happen when they desire it. There will be very little effort into making that happen.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

techmom said:


> I quoted your post to illustrate how HDs have no idea how to accept anything other than HD, there is no such thing as LD as far as they are concerned. Faithful Wife, thanks for your post defending my position, seems as if the only valid sexuality is HD.
> 
> If HDs would just listen and learn from us then maybe they will gain perspective on their own sexuality. Now, I see why there are rarely LDs who post here on a consistent basis, this is an exercise in patience.
> 
> ...


That is a hell of a lot of shaming going on in this posts. Society pushes sex, emptiness, loneliness, sex is a crutch. Marital sex is nothing like that at least in my experience. It's a profound way to get close to my wife, she feels the same. Reading that from your perspective yes you have every right to feel the way you do but I would assume I married wrong and divorce you.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

sokillme said:


> I tend to think of sex like I wrote, you do many things in marriage that may not be your first thought, you may not even desire to do them but you try because that is marriage. I see it the same way as a women who marries the guy who plays video games all night, every night. That just make him a crappy husband. I would say the same for a wife who never has sex with her husband desire to do so or not. She is just a crappy wife, especially if the reason is because she doesn't feel like it. I'm sure the guy playing video games doesn't really feel like hanging out with his wife at that moment. What's the difference because it sex?
> 
> Physical intimacy is for most people pretty much one of the primary staples of marriage. Since when is desire the total motive providing one of those things. Guess the answer is to just divorce and move on seems a shame but in the end, I'm fine with that.
> 
> If this is the case then I agree with the other posters, LD should make it plain that sex is really only on the table as much once they get married and will only happen when they desire it. There will be very little effort into making that happen.


The ignorance astounds me.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Cletus said:


> This has to be the most patronizing and nauseating thing I've read here in a while. I'll refrain from lashing out at you, but really.


I could see how it would be taken that way. I'm sorry. I didn't mean it that way. I inferred that from her post about how her husband put pressure on her and had had a lot of sex before her. Inadequacy is the wrong word, I guess I should have said he makes her feel inadequate because of the way he talks to her. I was not saying she was inadequate. 

I stand by most of my post, but that part didn't come across the way I was trying to say it. 

My point was like she said he pressured her and made sex all about her and not them, which took away the fun. 

But I do apologize for not saying what I meant effectively.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Faithful Wife said:


> The ignorance astounds me.


Your defensiveness astounds me. A big part of marriage is about providing for your partners needs. Why would you get married if that were not the case.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

sokillme said:


> I tend to think of sex like I wrote, you do many things in marriage that may not be your first thought, you may not even desire to do them but you try because that is marriage. I see it the same way as a women who marries the guy who plays video games all night, every night. That just make him a crappy husband. I would say the same for a wife who never has sex with her husband desire to do so or not. She is just a crappy wife, especially if the reason is because she doesn't feel like it. I'm sure the guy playing video games doesn't really feel like hanging out with his wife at that moment. What's the difference because it sex?
> 
> Physical intimacy is for most people pretty much one of the primary staples of marriage. Since when is desire the total motive providing one of those things. Guess the answer is to just divorce and move on seems a shame but in the end, I'm fine with that.
> 
> If this is the case then I agree with the other posters, LD should make it plain that sex is really only on the table as much once they get married and will only happen when they desire it. There will be very little effort into making that happen.


I think there are LD women who DO make the effort . . . not because they have a strong sex drive that makes them feel like it, but because they love their husband and want to please them. 

Sadly, even the very best effort put forth by such a wife isn't good enough for some husbands, who expect to see their own depth of sex drive, their own depth of sexual desire, reflected back at them. That expectation, IMO, is usually a fruitless one, since a woman's sexuality typically works quite differently from a man's. 

When you are sincerely doing your best to please and love your spouse, and your efforts are rejected instead of accepted with grace and gratitude, you quickly lose that desire to please. In fact, it can make it seem like you are making things worse to even try. 

I think there are probably plenty of LD/HD couples who have satisfactory--and even great-- sex lives because one side is giving with love and grace, and the other side is receiving with love and grace.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

farsidejunky said:


> The one lesson that I learned (in addition to what you posted) is that I can be a spouse that mirrors the quality of spousal service provided. In other words, if she doesn't feel bad over sex once or twice a month, she has little room to complain when I tell her "no" in regards to things that make her feel valued in the relationship.
> 
> Additionally, this is not done to get her to do more, nor to make her feel bad, but rather to reduce my resentment and use that time to pursue things I find fulfilling, plus it lowers the pressure on her to be sexual with me more frequently than she is comfortable.


This (the ability for the higher-drive spouse to do this, and the willingness of the lower-drive spouse to graciously accept this dynamic) is critical. Unfortunately, I think it's uncommon that the lower-drive spouse does so.

I think my experience (a reduction in the non-sexual service level by the higher-drive spouse leads to resentment from the lower-drive spouse) is far more common. The attitude that sex doesn't matter, guys are pigs for having to have it, it's a bonus instead of an integral part of the relationship, etc. is rampant. How an adult can think he or she is entitled to a higher level of service than is delivered to his or her spouse is beyond me, but there it is.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

sokillme said:


> Your defensiveness astounds me. A big part of marriage is about providing for your partners needs. Why would you get married if that were not the case.


Who or what do you think I'm defending?


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

GettingIt_2 said:


> I think there are LD women who DO make the effort . . . not because they have a strong sex drive that makes them feel like it, but because they love their husband and want to please them.
> 
> Sadly, even the very best effort put forth by such a wife isn't good enough for some husbands, who expect to see their own depth of sex drive, their own depth of sexual desire, reflected back at them. That expectation, IMO, is usually a fruitless one, since a woman's sexuality typically works quite differently from a man's.
> 
> ...


And this was pretty much the point I was trying to make. Part of being married is attempting to meet your spouses needs whatever they are, within reason. Most people have a need for sex. If you can't do that whatever it is your marriage probably will not be a happy one. And if your attitude is that is not my problem then you are not a good spouse.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Faithful Wife said:


> Who or what do you think I'm defending?


Whatever just block me.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

sokillme said:


> And this was pretty much the point I was trying to make. Part of being married is attempting to meet your spouses needs whatever they are, within reason. Most people have a need for sex. If you can't do that whatever it is your marriage probably will not be a happy one. And if your attitude is that is not my problem then you are not a good spouse.


Getting it is not LD in the same way Cletus's wife or Techmom is. Not that she didn't make an excellent and eloquent point...but she is not a life long baseline LD. 

"Most people have a need for sex" means you think LD's should just act like "most people". 

Until you or anyone who doesn't understand that a natural LD like Cletus's wife is not wrong in being themselves and can't change anyway, you will keep not understanding what is going on in cases like these.

There are some incompatible marriages that can be improved -- and there are some that can't. The ones that can't are usually like this...where one spouse simply doesn't have the need or desire for sex that the other does and this is never going to change, therefore the sexual relationship rarely improves beyond maybe small changes.

If Cletus left his wife or died, she isn't going to suddenly find her sex drive. She's going to be exactly as she is now (regards the LD aspect).


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

sokillme said:


> And this was pretty much the point I was trying to make. Part of being married is attempting to meet your spouses needs whatever they are, within reason. Most people have a need for sex. If you can't do that whatever it is your marriage probably will not be a happy one. And if your attitude is that is not my problem then you are not a good spouse.


Yes, but my point was that genuine effort on the part of an LD is sometimes rejected as not good enough, and the LD is blamed and badgered for being "not a good spouse"

And the end of the day, two people who decide to stay partnered despite sexual incompatibility would do well to find a way lay resentment, blame, and rancor aside and look to the positive aspects of the union. 

I think that is what Cletus has done. Then again, he seems to know and trust his wife enough to accept her as she is. He has the "grace to receive" that I was referring to.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> Getting it is not LD in the same way Cletus's wife or Techmom is. Not that she didn't make an excellent and eloquent point...but she is not a life long baseline LD.


I think it's hard to say, actually. Techmom and I might not be all that different in our drives . . . but we have had radically different experiences with the high drive men we partnered with at a young age. 

So much of who I am, sexually, has to do with how my husband has treated me sexually.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Faithful Wife said:


> This post illustrates one of the main problems in sexual incompatibility. Basically, an HD simply assumes that a self professed LD is just lying or ignorant about themselves.
> 
> Tech mom has been around for awhile and has bravely joined in threads like these over the years in order to help others here understand the LD perspective. And almost every single time she does this, someone responds to tell her that's she's mistaken about what she knows about herself and if only she would try something different she would find that she is HD.
> 
> ...


We have been down this argument before and it often results in some kind of misunderstanding...I do know what you are trying to say and why you arrived at this perspective and there's nothing really wrong with having tried to come up with a theory to try to not go crazy when the partner doesn't desire one as much (or show that they desire you; how desire can express itself is another thing). 
Understanding whether your partner is LD or not is not really so much the point. I think one has to start from the assumption (and I don't think it is either an unreasonable or a wrong assumption) that regular sex and desire goes synonymous with most relationships/marriages. If sex is non existent or very irregular then something is not quite right - I think most people would agree with this.
Plants need water: both are valid entities independently but for plants to thrive they need an appropriate amount of water regularly.

Of course it's possible for one partner (the HD) to just completely embrace an LD partner however it's just not really what one would consider the norm. Yes I know it's outdated here, but people who love each other do tend to have sex. That's it. 
Then there are degrees as to how much is 'reasonable'. People who love each other don't have to have sex twice a day. But I would still argue that there is some kind of 'norm' (whatever the couple decides on). 
I would also argue that it is not a huge deal for both to adjust a little. It doesn't mean an LD suddenly becomes HD if they decide that it would be beneficial to have sex a little more often. It's like with anything in a partnership when it comes to compromises. And any relationship is about compromise, whether it is sex or other things. People who don't have 'compromise' in their vocabulary tend to end up alone.

I read somewhere that 25% of women are HD and 25% of men are LD (or something like that) so unless most people do end up alone this simple statistic means that without compromise, most people are guaranteed to be miserable without some sort of compromise.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Cletus said:


> Anyone want to discuss this?
> 
> Many come to this site looking to fix an unsatisfying sex life. Sometimes the problems stem not from having a sexless marriage or an LD spouse, but from simply having an irreconcilable difference of opinion on what a satisfying sex life should contain. Your spouse desires intimacy with you, but under terms that you find hard to agree to.
> 
> ...


No. 6 is a bit controversial: if your spouse knows you are miserable without sex (or with very little sex) and they actively don't do anything about it or ignore it, then it is debatable whether they are trying to hurt you. They may not realise that they are hurting you so it is up to you to make it clear to them that they are, in fact, hurting you.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Faithful Wife said:


> Getting it is not LD in the same way Cletus's wife or Techmom is. Not that she didn't make an excellent and eloquent point...but she is not a life long baseline LD.
> 
> "Most people have a need for sex" means you think LD's should just act like "most people".
> 
> ...


I agree I never said there wasn't such a thing as LD, I questioned Techmom because she says stuff like "most men are not as HD as they think they are, they use sex as a crutch to express their emotional selves" and "Society pushes sex as a bandaid for all of our inner emptyness and lonliness". Also sounds like she married a man who tries to bully her into sex. I agree I came off in some of my words as putting her down. I wasn't trying to I was saying that maybe if she thought of sex a different way, as not about a bandaid for emptiness she may actually enjoy it. But I will layoff, it's her life. 

As for me I just don't think desire really matters that much assuming the expectations are reasonable. (And expecting an active sex life in marriage is reasonable) People do lots of stuff every day that they don't desire. People do lots of stuff for their spouses that they don't desire to do, they do it because they love their spouses and want to do thinks for them that make them happy. That's marriage. I don't think it is unreasonable to compromise. Again a good spouse at least makes the effort. At least that is my definition of a good spouse. Feel free to think differently and call me ignorant.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

techmom said:


> I personally think that most men are not as HD as they think they are, they use sex as a crutch to express their emotional selves. So, you really don't want to have sex, you just need to be emotionally fulfilled, there are many other ways to gain emotional fulfillment.
> 
> LDs have an identity as much as HDs do, it is as much a part of us as your identity is a part of you. Society pushes sex as a bandaid for all of our inner emptyness and lonliness that anyone who does not follow that crowd is ostracized and perceived as not normal. There are other sexual desire levels besides high, and all of them are normal.
> 
> Again, thanks Faithful Wife for your post.


I agree with all of this. I see it a lot. How some people think sex is the only road to their emotional fulfillment.

Being HD I have even recognized that in myself at different times. Usually in a good way, like when getting really good sex consistently for awhile and then feeling closer and closer to someone and feeling more and more fulfilled. But I've also known when at times I was chasing or seeking sex because I was feeling empty or bored. 

My ex h was always so fulfilled in other areas of his life. He was also fulfilled by sex when it would happen, but did not ever get unfulfilled when it didn't happen. He was basically a sexual genius! But that included being unattached to any need for validation from sex. Many times in his life he has gone years without sex (between relationships) and he was still a confident person who was self fulfilled. This taught me so much...I was always higher drive than he was, but his way was so calm and mature about it all that I ended up being more fulfilled doing things his way than I would have if he had done things my way. He talked about how men especially are expected to only seek intimacy through the sex act, which is a misfortune. He had the understanding that he could be intimate with me at any moment in any circumstance. 

Since then I see it differently, too. I can fulfill myself even if I don't have any sex partner at all, and I'm not talking about masturbation. I'm still HD but that doesn't mean I need sex at all, it just means I have high desire for it. I also have a high desire to own a yacht. I'm HY.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

farsidejunky said:


> All of those things are good lessons, brother.
> 
> The one lesson that I learned (in addition to what you posted) is that I can be a spouse that mirrors the quality of spousal service provided. In other words, if she doesn't feel bad over sex once or twice a month, she has little room to complain when I tell her "no" in regards to things that make her feel valued in the relationship.


What kinds of things do you tell her 'no' to that are comparable with sexual rejection? (My imagination is not up to it at the moment).
It sounds inherently unhealthy on the face of it. But then some women also use sex to get things so I guess it's quid pro quo in some sense.
Does she not feel you are being petty?


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

GettingIt_2 said:


> I think it's hard to say, actually. Techmom and I might not be all that different in our drives . . . but we have had radically different experiences with the high drive men we partnered with at a young age.
> 
> So much of who I am, sexually, has to do with how my husband has treated me sexually.


I was only basing my comment on what I remember of both of your stories. I don't think you are LD in the way she is. 

Example: if you and she both divorced, after some healing I think her drive would remain the same, and yours would actually increase.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

In Christianity, while having sex before marriage is sinful, so is NOT having it after marriage. Providing for your spouse's sexual satisfaction is mandatory. The Scripture is "Do not deprive one another except with consent for a time, that you may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again so that Satan does not tempt you because of your lack of self-control."

The context of that chapter (I Cor 5) is if you have the apostle Paul's "gift" (capable of being happily celibate) then it's better to stay single and serve God. If not it's better to marry rather than sin or "burn with passion". But understand that once you marry, you have a responsibility to your spouse. You partially belong to them now, having been made one in marriage.

This places a high standard on spouses and is heavy, which is why (IMO) people tend to emphasize the "no sex until marriage" rule without the rest of it:
* Sex is a legitimate bodily need and having sex is a legitimate reason to get married. But since you're not supposed to have it until marriage, you need some assurance that you'll have it sufficiently once you have a spouse.
* The responsibility is on the lower-drive spouse to rise up to the level of the higher-drive spouse, at least to where the higher-drive spouse is content with the sex offered. The harsh consequence is that the lower-drive partner would be in good standing with a partner of equal drive, but sinning against a partner of higher drive.
* Wanting a family, companionship, stability, etc. by themselves are not good reasons to get married.

Nowhere (someone show me if I'm wrong) is it wrong or dirty to do oral, tough genitals, restrict oneself to a small number of positions, use birth control or toys, etc. Those are all learned attitudes and not Biblical.



oldshirt said:


> I honestly think part if the reason for religious indoctrination of abstinence until marriage is so these dead fish and terrible lovers can marry and are not a burden on society.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

DTO said:


> * The responsibility is on the lower-drive spouse to rise up to the level of the higher-drive spouse, at least to where the higher-drive spouse is content with the sex offered. The harsh consequence is that the lower-drive partner would be in good standing with a partner of equal drive, but sinning against a partner of higher drive.
> .


Wow, @techmom did you know even God hates LD's? :wtf:


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Cletus said:


> Put her in bed with Hugh Jackman, and the attitudes would still be the same.


Have you tried? How can you be sure? I am only half-joking: it has been known that LD spouses change radically when they have affairs...Though perhaps only for 6 months or so.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Faithful Wife said:


> Wow, @techmom did you know even God hates LD's? :wtf:


I think if god was a woman things would have been written differently...


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> The need isn’t just physical, it’s also emotional. While a spouse can force herself to do the deed more often, she can’t make herself actually desire it more often.
> 
> If you’re satisfied with duty sex, great, but without genuine desire driving it I find it worse than no sex.


This is simply not true. Sex is not a binary "either you're horny, or it's pity/duty sex not worth having" matter. There is a whole middle ground of "I love you and love making you happy in that special way that only I can" sex. That is not sexual desire per se, but it is relationship desire and still counts.

If a guy has a loving but lower-drive wife who loves putting a that smile on his face and comes to him cheerfully (that means no bad attitude, starfishing, "hurry up and get it done", etc.), but he turns her down; then he is the problem.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Faithful Wife said:


> Wow, @techmom did you know even God hates LD's? :wtf:


So full of crap. Someone posited that religion had a system for making sure that low drive people also had a partner and I disproved it.

Keep in mind that the author of the passage is himself LD. He also says that he wishes more people were like him and available to spread Christianity rather than have earthly commitments. Read the passage that I cited and look for yourself.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

DTO said:


> So full of crap. Someone posited that religion had a system for making sure that low drive people also had a partner and I disproved it.
> 
> Keep in mind that the author of the passage is himself LD. He also says that he wishes more people were like him and available to spread Christianity rather than have earthly commitments. Read the passage that I cited and look for yourself.


:lol:

Read the passage for myself? So I can see that you were "right"? 

Oh my god, so many lol's.

Sorry dude, God doesn't create us how we are, then partner us with someone sexually incompatible, and then send us off to burn in hell for it. That's not how it works. But have fun with that.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

GettingIt_2 said:


> I am constantly reminded when I visit this forum of what could have been.


Love your posts - they give me hope. Maybe the solution for LDs is to read the forum then? >
If nothing else, perhaps guilt could be a powerful aphrodisiac then...


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

techmom said:


> This is my nature, LDs can and do orgasm, it doesn't mean that we want it at a high frequency.
> 
> I can ask the same for HDs, why are you the way you are, why are you selfish and want more sex than your partner desires? Can't you just accept us the way we are?


Two responses:

First response (and I think this is true for most HD guys), we don't want you to come up to our level. We'd be happy with something in the middle - an arrangement where our enacted values agree with our espoused values. If you say that my HD viewpoint is as valid as your LD viewpoint, but you insist on not yielding or yielding only minimally, then you really don't believe what you are saying.

If I am willing to meet you halfway, why are you not willing to meet me in the middle? This is a serious question: if you can explain how an LD person can value her HD spouse's view as equally valid, yet at the same time meet him halfway, I'll gladly concede the point.

Second response: marriage is full of things, sexual and non-sexual, where one spouse is going to want the other to come along for the ride, cheerfully. If every time you wanted me to go for a walk with you, listen about your day, watch a sappy rom-com, etc. I made it obvious that I will but would rather be doing anything else, how would you feel?


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## FrenchFry (Oct 10, 2011)

inmyprime said:


> Love your posts - they give me hope. Maybe the solution for LDs is to read the forum then? >
> If nothing else, perhaps guilt could be a powerful aphrodisiac then...


It’s not. I lost a lot of sympathy for my HD husband due to these kind of discussions. Like Techmom, I just step back.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> Love your posts - they give me hope. Maybe the solution for LDs is to read the forum then? >


In the context of this discussion, I would be more inclined to say that maybe the solution for HDs is to read this thread.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

FrenchFry said:


> It’s not. I lost a lot of sympathy for my HD husband due to these kind of discussions. Like Techmom, I just step back.


You 'lost' sympathy...Does it mean you had it before you read these discussions?


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Faithful Wife said:


> Since then I see it differently, too. I can fulfill myself even if I don't have any sex partner at all, and I'm not talking about masturbation. I'm still HD but that doesn't mean I need sex at all, it just means I have high desire for it. I also have a high desire to own a yacht. I'm HY.


In my mind this is kind of standard isn't it? Of course HD doesn't mean you can't have a fulfilling life if you don't have sex every day. It just means you like sex. Again desire doesn't translate to it having to happen. 

The difference is sex takes two people. 

Without sex marriage is really just a business partnership with the possibility of a good friendship. The reason why all of this takes on a greater weight is because in a monogamous marriage you can only have sex with your spouse so if your spouse basically decides that because they have no desire to have sex it is off the table you are effectively forcing the other spouse to live celibate. In my mind that is wrong and a cruel thing to do. Also I see that as grounds for divorce. 

Now on this thread we are talking about spouses with two different desire levels. In that case compromise by both parties seems reasonable. That doesn't mean I am LD so get over it, or I am HD so get over it. Nether one deserves to be the default. Besides abuse, I really don't see much area's in marriage where it's a good strategy to say, well this is just the way I am so get over it. No relationship works well if that is your attitude.


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

DTO said:


> Two responses:
> 
> First response (and I think this is true for most HD guys), we don't want you to come up to our level. We'd be happy with something in the middle - an arrangement where our enacted values agree with our espoused values. If you say that my HD viewpoint is as valid as your LD viewpoint, but you insist on not yielding or yielding only minimally, then you really don't believe what you are saying.
> 
> ...


Most LDs do meet the HD in the middle, however it is not appreciated by HDs such as my husband because deep down inside they want their ideal mate who desires them as much as they do. All of this BS about the HD meeting the LD in the middle is not how it plays out in real life, only on forums like this do the HDs say that they sacrifice so much. I would like to get the spouses side, it would be a whole different story.

I hate sappy rom-coms, they perpetuate this myth of the LD who discovers their true sexual self by meeting the right person, i.e. "Stella Got her Groove Back". This is not how people are in real life, HDs bought into this myth and they really feel that everyone who says they are LD are lying or they don't know who they really are. As if HD is the default and everyone else is broken and needs therapy.

I don't need therapy, I don't need to find my true self, I don't have a buried sexual self to discover....I am who I am and I am accepting it fully.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Cletus said:


> In the context of this discussion, I would be more inclined to say that maybe the solution for HDs is to read this thread.


I am not so sure. There may be different factors at play. What I have also often observed happens is that the male sexual drive is also not static: with age, there is a decline. Some men confuse it with 'changing their perspective' and the 'realisation' that they cannot change their wife but they can change their perspective etc etc.
Sex becomes less important for men too eventually. Unfortunately the resentment still tends to stay (while the urge to have sex declines).
I think it would be an unbearable situation for me. It was, for a period of time, and I was doing everything possible to change it. I don't claim much credit - I think the situation just improved partly due to my wife realising how much I was suffering (and the marriage as a result) and partly to her drive picking up again after 3 pregnancies. She is still lower drive than me but either she is amazing at faking or her drive rose going into late thirties. Mine is a little less than in my twenties while hers is higher than in her twenties (or she became more comfortable with what she likes in bed, I am not sure). 
Point is, drives are never static and our perceptions change over time as well.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

FrenchFry said:


> It’s not. I lost a lot of sympathy for my HD husband due to these kind of discussions. Like Techmom, I just step back.


It makes me happy I married my wife.


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## FrenchFry (Oct 10, 2011)

inmyprime said:


> You 'lost' sympathy...Does it mean you had it before you read these discussions?


I did until I realized it’s a losing battle.

On here, there has to be a reason to say No. Sometimes, however it just is no.


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## FrenchFry (Oct 10, 2011)

sokillme said:


> It makes me happy I married my wife.


I’m happy I married my husband too because he actually listens to me.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

FrenchFry said:


> I’m happy I married my husband too because he actually listens to me.


We compromise.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

FrenchFry said:


> I did until I realized it’s a losing battle.
> 
> On here, there has to be a reason to say No. Sometimes, however it just is no.


There might be but one has to factor in the cost as well. 

What I was and still am confused about is how much rejection affected me. I remember my brain telling me at the time: 'get over it, it's just sex, who cares' etc etc. However I was very surprised that it didn't feel like a simple itch that i couldn't scratch. Not being able to have been near my wife intimately felt more like abuse; I cannot explain it and LDs will probably never be able to relate to it. I am not sure what would have happened if it went on for longer than 6 months or so but I feel that even for this short period of time, some damage has been done and I am also partly disgusted with myself that I even feel that way at all. But I can't help it.

I am not saying the pain of rejection is worse than than feeling harassed for sex all the time but the dialogue has to start somewhere, somehow.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Cletus said:


> No, I'm not advocating anyone else make this or any other choice. But I would warn those coming here trying to change a sexual incompatibility issue by changing their spouse - *a rarely successful effort*, if this forum is any indication. Your best path forward might be to direct your efforts inward if you think your relationship is otherwise worth keeping.


I don't think it is as rare as one would make out from the forum. This forum is self-selective and not representative of reality: I think there are much more success stories when it comes to sexual incompatibility than the forum would lead you to believe. Of course, one has to define 'success'...


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Good post! I know I've gone at it a bit with you and Faithful Wife at times, so I wanted to say this.

I personally completely accept that LD is a real thing, and I don't think I'm unique in that perspective. My issue comes from what see as a fundamental aspect of marriage. To me, a marriage is one where you consider your partner's needs and wants equal to your own, and work to make them happen. It doesn't matter whether which partner is feeling a lack, or whether that lack is sexual or non-sexual.

So to me, a woman being LD is a given that I will accept at face value. The issue for me is "why can't you meet me halfway" even though you are the LD in the relationship. I think that people are always going to want different things in differing quantities than their spouses; having a good marriage depends on these sacrifices.

This is why I like Scharch's outlook on marriages. I can differentiate (I think I'm using that correctly) myself and do something that I don't particularly like (or perhaps even dislike) in service to a loved one, and not feel bad or resentful for it. Here's a perfect (if simple) example: my daughter goes to school near my home. Every weekday she eats breakfast and lunch at my home whether it's her mom's or my custody week. She dislikes school food; wanting to do stuff that is meaningful to her, I cook breakfast and lunch for the week for her that she likes / requests. In fact, I just finished making three different dishes so that she can have a lunch choice during the week.

And, I do that every week, even if I'm dog-ass tired and have to stay up late/get up early. Even though I can cook well, sometimes the last thing I want to do on a Sunday night is bust my hump over a hot stove. I could just tell her to eat at school (even though I've seen the menus and it's not appealing). I could make one thing and have it last for the week. But, I'll skip the ball game or some sleep to make sure she has what makes her feel content on a daily basis; and I can do it lovingly and not resentfully.

I understand that not everyone is at that point in their development, although I think we all can get there if we work at it and develop a sufficiently selfless point of view. I had an extremely selfish (on top of LD) ex-wife and learned that (1) not everyone possesses that "giver" ability and often the ones who don't have it don't really care to develop it; and (2) not everyone has the same marriage outlook as me. Lots of folks feel that sex isn't subject to the same give and take - the same regard for the spouse as for oneself - as non-sexual issues. Others don't feel that the lady should give as much as the man (the "happy wife, happy life" viewpoint).

I did a lot of reflecting and did a lot of looking into this issue. It seems that at much as HD partners might complain about the lack of sex, it is the LD partners generally who are recalcitrant. I would have liked sex nearly daily when I was younger but would have settled for 2 times per week. I would have liked foreplay and oral as a regular part of sex but would have been fine not having it every time sex took place. It was my LD wife who insisted it had to be sex on her timetable and the way she wanted, or I could go to hell.

I find that is the way the HD husband - LD wife dynamic plays out most of the time. I've participated in a few different boards over the years, and it is uncommon to find a lady who doesn't really want sex to say "I am going to meet my husband's wants because I want him to be happy." I've only seen once where a lady said "if I don't want to have sex with him I won't, but it's okay if he doesn't do stuff that I would like either". It's far more common for the LD wife (and LD husbands, too) to say "the lack of sex should not matter - you should do what I want and be generous and attentive regardless". THAT IMO is why LD's get a bad rap.

OTOH, if LDs would genuinely meet their husbands (and wives) halfway, I think we would have much less friction in this area. Similarly, if the LDs would say "I just can't bring myself to be that spouse, and I know you're unhappy, so I am willing to step back from my demands so that you don't feel I am taking advantage of you" we could have more outcomes like Cletus and less dissatisfaction / resentment in general.



techmom said:


> I quoted your post to illustrate how HDs have no idea how to accept anything other than HD, there is no such thing as LD as far as they are concerned. Faithful Wife, thanks for your post defending my position, seems as if the only valid sexuality is HD.
> 
> If HDs would just listen and learn from us then maybe they will gain perspective on their own sexuality. Now, I see why there are rarely LDs who post here on a consistent basis, this is an exercise in patience.
> 
> ...


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

inmyprime said:


> What kinds of things do you tell her 'no' to that are comparable with sexual rejection? (My imagination is not up to it at the moment).
> It sounds inherently unhealthy on the face of it. But then some women also use sex to get things so I guess it's quid pro quo in some sense.
> Does she not feel you are being petty?


I've been there and done that. I don't think the point is to aim for telling someone "no" in some way that is compatible with sexual rejection, as in some sort of quid pro quo. 

My personal experience (and I've seen much of the same reading and participating on these forums over the years) is that I am generally a generous guy. I love doing little things for people here and there, within limits. I don't mind if it's a situation where I give more than I receive, within limits.

But, those limits are not static. The more my partner does for me, the more I feel emotionally fulfilled. The more fulfilled I am, the more I am able to give. While sex is not the only way to get fulfillment, it provides a manner of fulfillment that is not available in another manner. Thus, it is not possible for me to be at peak generosity / devotion / whatever you call it if the sex is bad. If there is no sex, then my capacity to give is simply not what it is going to be otherwise.

And that is the irony when it comes to these issues. Most of the LD situation I've read about online (and people I have encountered IRL) find that the LD partners want to have their cake and eat it too. The sex drops at some point and the LD partner says "I just can't do that - at least not right now. You need to accept that." Then when the LD person starts feeling a non-sexual lack of attention in return, it becomes a matter of "you used to do XYZ when you were getting laid (or thinking you would), I expect you to suck it up and keep delivering".

Somewhere along the line it became okay for sexual wants and needs to matter less than the non-sexual, which on average it means that it's fine if the lady fluctuates or falls short on provision, but the guy needs to be that steady rock who never falters. That is the problem.

Did my ex-wife find it petty when I lowered my level of service? Yes, at least a little, but that wasn't the real issue. She felt that I (as the man) was supposed to dig down deeper and push myself to meet her needs, whereas she should not have to do the same for me.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

If that is your experience then I am truly sorry, because that truly sucks and is unfair to you. I can assure you that my ex did not meet me halfway. My ex was pretty much a dead fish. She expected an occasional quickie and a very infrequent long session (but again, no oral, no manual stimulation, don't look at my privates, etc.) to be good enough. I would have liked 4x - 5x a week but would have settled for 2x with some regular activity other than intercourse, but it never happened.

But I assure you that she expected me to be on point every day to provide, protect, make her feel emotionally fulfilled and valued, etc. If I had someone who truly met me in the middle and did not ask for more than they provided, I would have been a happy camper indeed. I would have been happy with someone who would have provided lovingly even if not horny, but didn't get that either. What I mostly got was a once-a-month quickie so that she could feel that she was being a good wife. And that was if she didn't forget.



techmom said:


> Most LDs do meet the HD in the middle, however it is not appreciated by HDs such as my husband because deep down inside they want their ideal mate who desires them as much as they do. All of this BS about the HD meeting the LD in the middle is not how it plays out in real life, only on forums like this do the HDs say that they sacrifice so much. I would like to get the spouses side, it would be a whole different story.


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## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

The never ending battle between HD/LD, this is actually quite sad. Neither party is wrong. Neither party is broken. Neither party needs to be fixed. It's just an incompatibility. Nothing more, nothing less.

I understand where the LD comes from. Being a HD person, I have found myself in the LD spot a couple of times. Once due to relationship dynamics. Once due the fact that I travel for a living and for 6 trips home it happened to work out that my wife was having her monthly cycle. That 6 home trips was over a 9 month period. It was just the luck of the draw and no one's fault. That's just the way things worked out. Needless to say, by about the 4th home trip, I had absolutely no interest. NONE!

I also have been on the other end of things. I knew my wife was pretty high drive when we got together. At times I would have to tell her that I just needed a break. However, that all ended the day she went on the Depo shot. The doctor didn't bother to tell her about the side effects of the Depo BC. It took a high drive woman and made her a absolutely NO Drive woman. I mean no drive. It took me 5 years to figure out what was causing the issues. When she come home one day and told me she had to go on calcium and iron supplements because of the Depo shot. This got me to wondering and I began to do research. Sure enough, one of the side effects was an extreme loss of drive. Some doctors just do not give a damn and will just push whatever drug is convenient for them. It took another 5 years to get her to change her BC method. It caused a multitude of problems. It also prompted me to get a vasectomy. Enough of the poison already.

Our relationship will always be forever changed. In my 20s I could and also had the desire to go 7 to 10 times a week. After 10 years of absolutely nothing as far as desire from my wife, I no longer care. Yes, I'm still high drive. I can still be ready 5-6 times a week in my mid 40s. However, I no longer initiate like I should. The rejection does take its toll. I can completely understand the OP's position. He's not the only one with that position as we have more than a couple of guys here who have come to the same acceptance. They may occasionally vent, but they are not going anywhere because the pain of changing their situation does not outweigh the pain they currently face. There comes a point in time where acceptance really is the best option.

It's sad that most LD's get hammered on and accused of things that are not true. Quite simply, it's just not logical to exspect a person to create that which does not exist. I have seen both sides of the coin. I do value the comments made by the LD as they provide a valuable insight into the mind of a LD. All to often though, they are just as guilty of projection as the HD folks. It's quite sad in both directions. Most HD folks will never know what it feels like to be LD. Most LD folks will never know what it truly feels like to be HD. A little understanding would go a long way. 

In every case of a sexual incompatibility, if the two people would just sit down and talk and say you know, I love you very much. I understand that your drive is different from mine. I hate to see you suffer with added expectations that you really don't need. I just want you to be happy. I also want to be happy and not have to experience expectations that are unrealistic as well. Can we just come to an agreement to amicably separate so that we can find our particular way through life? Wouldn't life be so much simpler?

I will probably catch hell for that last part, but really at the end of the day, no one wins in a sexually incompatible marriage.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

sokillme said:


> It makes me happy I married my wife.


Makes me understand more and more every day that my girlfriend is a keeper. She sees how much effort I put into making her happy and in turn wants to make me happy. While her drive is not high, she knows that makes me happy and provides lovingly.

It is the textbook case of the virtuous cycle.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Faithful Wife said:


> The ignorance astounds me.


I think the ignorance comes more from confusing LD with a sexual orientation, akin to homosexuality or asexuality. An LD is not that. Asking someone to have sex more frequently is not the same as forcing a heterosexual man to have sex with a homosexual man (as an example). It's asking someone to do something they already do a little more often: there is a big difference and some LDs (and those defending them) make it out as if it is the former. If it was, then of course it would be unreasonable. But it's not, so it isn't. :scratchhead:

It must be some new pc fad that's taking the issue out of proportion: if you decide to become a member of a racing car club, nobody is going to complain that you are driving the car too much. However it would be odd to never drive again and still retain membership...I am sorry but part of being married involves having sex every now and again (and again). 0
It seems pointless to argue for a stance that promotes lack of interest in driving racing cars as a valid stance. 
Yes lack of interest in sex is a problem for a marriage as is compulsive sexual overdrive: both are abnormal. But asking to respect lack of interest in sex within a marriage seems unreasonable to me.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Faithful Wife said:


> :lol:
> 
> Read the passage for myself? So I can see that you were "right"?
> 
> ...


I meant correct in my interpretation of the passage.

We are getting too far off topic on this. My point was that the argument about religion promoting celibacy until marriage as a way to provide cover for the LD among us is wrong, at least for Christianity. I was simply citing my reason for my position.

Now, you don't have to agree that celibacy until marriage is the right way to live one's life, or anything else about the Bible. But that doesn't change the fact that the text says what it says.

If you want some personal context, I think those two rules have to go together. That is, purity before marriage could work, but only if the guarantee of sexual satisfaction before marriage was honored. Since that second rule mostly does not happen, not assessing sexual compatibility before marriage just leads to problems, so I won't marry anyone unless sex looks like it's not going to be an issue.

Also, not surprisingly, I won't date or marry anyone who claims to be a strong Christian. I certainly am not a strong follower, although I believe implementing many of the principles to have been beneficial to my life. I've found that even most self-proclaimed strong Christians pick and choose which parts of the Bible to follow and which don't apply to their own lives. The hypocrisy is really too much for me, and I understand the skepticism. But again, I'm just rebutting the arguments that religion has an agenda with pushing purity before marriage, and that somehow God hates LD people.


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## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

techmom said:


> Most LDs do meet the HD in the middle, however it is not appreciated by HDs such as my husband because *deep down inside they want their ideal mate who desires them as much as they do. * All of this BS about the HD meeting the LD in the middle is not how it plays out in real life, only on forums like this do the HDs say that they sacrifice so much. I would like to get the spouses side, it would be a whole different story.
> 
> I hate sappy rom-coms, they perpetuate this myth of the LD who discovers their true sexual self by meeting the right person, i.e. "Stella Got her Groove Back". This is not how people are in real life, HDs bought into this myth and they really feel that everyone who says they are LD are lying or they don't know who they really are. As if HD is the default and everyone else is broken and needs therapy.
> 
> I don't need therapy, I don't need to find my true self, I don't have a buried sexual self to discover....I am who I am and I am accepting it fully.



The bolded part is a very valid comment. I completely understand it. I absolutely feel that same way. While I may appreciate the thought, I don't want my wife "throwing me a bone". Quite simply, if she is unable to provide her best, I'm simply uninterested. I'm not into mediocre sex. I'm not interested in anything less than good to great. If she isn't at her best, I would just as soon not do it. It has nothing to do with being vindictive that I didn't get my way. It has nothing to do with being ungrateful. I simply don't see a need to accept less. I'm not into happy duty sex. I'm not into starfish. I'm not into her servicing me. Just no. We will have mutually satisfying sex or we won't have it at all.

Just for the record. A person with a low drive is just as valid in their thoughts as a HD.

Past that, I see a lot of projection. If your husband makes you so miserable then why not divorce?


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Faithful Wife said:


> Getting it is not LD in the same way Cletus's wife or Techmom is.


You mean she may be a little more forthcoming and less selfish in addition to being LD? An LD is completely entitled to be LD - nobody is arguing or denying this. But you and others are trying to slip in the selfishness factor as if the two are the same: one can be LD and still understanding, forthcoming and willing to compromise. Embracing an LD spouse doesn't mean you have to embrace selfishness and lack of willingness to make the other partner happy/less miserable.


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## FrenchFry (Oct 10, 2011)

@inmyprime. You minimize the realities of what it is like for the LD partner to navigate a sexual incompatibility in a relationship. This is why dialogue is difficult. This is where my lack of sympathy stems from—the lack of it towards LDs unless it is a specifically approved reason.

So as much as I’d like to empathize with how bad it feels to be rejected, as long as the tack on dealingwith a lower drive seems to be “it’s just a little more sex,” my response will be “It’s just the word no, deal with it.”


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

FrenchFry said:


> @inmyprime. You minimize the realities of what it is like for the LD partner to navigate a sexual incompatibility in a relationship. This is why dialogue is difficult. This is where my lack of sympathy stems from—the lack of it towards LDs unless it is a specifically approved reason.
> 
> So as much as I’d like to empathize with how bad it feels to be rejected, as long as the tack on dealingwith a lower drive seems to be “it’s just a little more sex,” my response will be “It’s just the word no, deal with it.”


And you don't see how the two are totally asymmetric from each other and not equivalent at all? 'A little more sex' is not the direct opposite of 'No Sex, deal with it'. It would be 'sex all the time!'. The opposite of 'a little more sex' would be 'a little less sex' - and that's how most marriages survive and go on to survive. The ones that are supposed to 'deal with it', do not.


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## FrenchFry (Oct 10, 2011)

No.

LD is not no drive. It is lower drive. So, the word will probably come out of an LDs mouth more often than an HDs.

I tied myself in knots for awhile to not say no because of being afraid of hurting feelings. It turns out—no happens and we have to deal with it the best we can.

I do not have to justify why I say no. I don’t have to just have a little more sex because no hurts. I feel better saying no when I mean no than a little more sex.

I am more willing to not say no if my no is respected. That’s just me though. I am also willing to say no way more if the feeling is “just a little sex,” because it’s just a little no.”


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## Handy (Jul 23, 2017)

What I have experienced is the LD becomes no drive. When the LD was having sex, there were expectations attached to the sex = a pay off in addition to normal spousal living standards. When my W would have sex with me, she did an emotional dump on me, complaining about what wasn't right in her way of thinking/opinion. It was like I was having sex with this emotionally negative person. I wanted to have an emotionally satisfying encounter but that (the good emotional feeling of being a team) happened less and less as the years progressed.

I respect that a person can be LD or ND but the LD-ND person still usually wants the spouses physical, emotional, and financial support. I have read that just about every LD person controls the sexual frequency, agenda, and anything that goes long with having sex with in a long term relationship. The person that cares the least about most things is how the relationship plays out. One bad affect is the "cares the least" attitude spills over to the other partner and the oneness of the earlier relationship declines, sometimes to a point of thinking, "why bother."

What made it difficult for me was I am not one to push my ideas on someone else. I am not into making other people or my W uncomfortable. This results in me detaching so I don't become resentful. Add in other topics or activities my W doesn't want to do, well that also leads to withdrawing until I ask myself and her, why am I still around. What is in this relationship that benefits me? 

To some people LD is once in 15 years. To others it is 4x a year. Anything above that is normal to some people. What I heard was she couldn't keep up with me. OK, were were having sex maybe 1x or at most 3X in 2 months. Her excuse was I was a sex addict that wanted to have sex 3X a day, which was all made up in her mind. I said 3X a month would work for me but she didn't buy that, so we went to 0x per month for a long time. We did get back to occasional sex but then her dumping her negativity on me lead to me sleeping on the edge of my side of the bed and for the second time she moved to the spare bedroom, now for several years again.

I have felt like my W's employee for over 15 years and the pay is about peanut level. LD is relative to what the other spouse thinks is normal or acceptable. 

My take is being LD-ND might result in not having much reason to be together once some of the child care obligations are about to be mostly completed. Yes LD is a valid choice but be prepared to accept where that leads you.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

FrenchFry said:


> No.
> 
> LD is not no drive. It is lower drive. So, the word will probably come out of an LDs mouth more often than an HDs.
> 
> ...


This sentence is a bit dubious because it sounds like it is less about 'no' and more about an exercise of control. It would perhaps be easier to respect the 'no' if it wasn't framed that way in the first place 0


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## FrenchFry (Oct 10, 2011)

inmyprime said:


> This sentence is a bit dubious because it sounds like it is less about 'no' and more about an exercise of control. It would perhaps be easier to respect the 'no' if it wasn't framed that way in the first place 0


So what if it is? Does that change the realities of your drive at all if your wife doesn’t like the reason you are HD? If I think you are emotionally stunted and expressing it through sex, does that make your drive invalid?

You don’t have to respect the why at all. It just is.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> What kinds of things do you tell her 'no' to that are comparable with sexual rejection? (My imagination is not up to it at the moment).
> It sounds inherently unhealthy on the face of it. But then some women also use sex to get things so I guess it's quid pro quo in some sense.
> Does she not feel you are being petty?


Mostly acts of service; feeding her dogs for her, or taking initiative to get her something; offering to help when she clearly needs it. And understand that I have not shut this down completely, but rather just when I mostly feel like it. Honestly, the acts of service that I fulfill for her are probably at a much higher frequency than my posts make it sound.

Frankly, what she thinks of it is irrelevant. It's not that it doesn't matter as much as I don't pursue personal fulfillment based on what she may or may not think about it. 

She wanted to feel less pressure over sexual fulfillment. She didn't want frequency to be as high. I am doing that in the only way I know that prevents me from building resentment. I compromised. If she can't do the same, it's time for us to part ways.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

DTO said:


> In Christianity, while having sex before marriage is sinful, so is NOT having it after marriage. Providing for your spouse's sexual satisfaction is mandatory. The Scripture is "Do not deprive one another except with consent for a time, that you may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again so that Satan does not tempt you because of your lack of self-control."
> 
> The context of that chapter (I Cor 5) is if you have the apostle Paul's "gift" (capable of being happily celibate) then it's better to stay single and serve God. If not it's better to marry rather than sin or "burn with passion". But understand that once you marry, you have a responsibility to your spouse. You partially belong to them now, having been made one in marriage.
> 
> ...


Speaking as a Christian, two things:

1, where exactly are you seeing that the LD must rise up? I don't recall reading that in any version of 1 Corinthians, and maybe you could educate me.

2, how is this helpful?


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

FrenchFry said:


> [MENTION=269370]So as much as I’d like to empathize with how bad it feels to be rejected, as long as the tack on dealingwith a lower drive seems to be “it’s just a little more sex,” my response will be “It’s just the word no, deal with it.”


And that's fine, completely valid. However, my response would have to be, "It just means divorce, deal with it." We'd have made a mistake getting married, having such incompatible drives, so it would be better to split up and look for partners who match us.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I think the dynamic described below kills many sexual connections. 




GettingIt_2 said:


> I think there are LD women who DO make the effort . . . not because they have a strong sex drive that makes them feel like it, but because they love their husband and want to please them.
> 
> Sadly, even the very best effort put forth by such a wife isn't good enough for some husbands, who expect to see their own depth of sex drive, their own depth of sexual desire, reflected back at them. That expectation, IMO, is usually a fruitless one, since a woman's sexuality typically works quite differently from a man's.
> 
> ...


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> I was only basing my comment on what I remember of both of your stories. I don't think you are LD in the way she is.
> 
> *Example: if you and she both divorced, after some healing I think her drive would remain the same, and yours would actually increase*.


Interesting. I tend to think that all bets would be off as far as how my drive would be, until I met a new partner and entered a new dynamic. The single biggest factor for how my sexuality plays out . . . is my partner. 

I'm not talking about casual sex, one night stands, new relationship sex, etc. I'm talking about sex in a long-term, committed relationships that include the complexities of entwined lives (cohabitation, child rearing, extended families, etc.)

What I would do to get my rocks off in a hookup versus how a sexual relationship exists as part of my marriage, IMO, are completely different beasts. And that is something that I think is commonly overlooked or not given enough consideration in discussions here. 

As for techmom, I don't want to speak for her, but if I recall correctly, she said in an earlier post that the unfolding of her sexuality was greatly impacted by her husband's actions and attitudes. Had she been with an HD partner who was actually interested in her sexuality as something separate and different than his own, her story might be different.


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## toblerone (Oct 18, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> I honestly think part if the reason for religious indoctrination of abstinence until marriage is so these dead fish and terrible lovers can marry and are not a burden on society.


Religion was created long before the average person could even begin to imagine concepts such as 'terrible lover' and 'dead fish'. These are relatively modern concepts.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I wish this was something that we taught young people. Instead we tell them "love conquers all". It doesn't. There are a lot of people living long term unhappy lives because they didn't understand how important this is. The truly sad part is that there is no lack of either HD or LD people, they just need to know at an early enough age they need to find each other. 






Where there's a will said:


> If only I knew at 18 or whatever, what I know now! Cant beat myself up about it but it is playing out like a long term cancer for many of us. Differential desire was never on the radar or didnt seem to matter back then. I had no idea and no one told me that what turns out to be ' the girlfriend experience' isnt the long term scenario. I sometimes wonder if I had known then what I know now would I have believed it? And also would I have sacrificed all the other positives to make it the deal breaker?
> I find it impossible to separate sexual desire from love, in other words if I am not desired then I am not loved, Im sure I am not alone in this but it tends to play increasing importance with age. I cant understand why it didnt matter so much in the early days?


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I think one thing that confuses some HDs is why their LD partners both don't want frequent sex AND don't want their partners having sex with anyone else or often don't even want them using porn. 

Either by itself is completely reasonable, but at least for me it is the combination that is so frustrating. It feels like someone saying that they don't like spicy food, so you can't have any either. 

I do understand all of the issues surrounding open marriages, I really do, but I think it is the above that is such a large source of stress / resentment. It results in the LD controlling the HD's sex life. (that control is NOT in general intentional, but it is there none the less. Sex happens when the LD wants, and how the LD wants - because the HD is usually up for anything). 

I think the traditional exclusiveness of sex is what makes this so troublesome. 






techmom said:


> This is my nature, LDs can and do orgasm, it doesn't mean that we want it at a high frequency.
> 
> I can ask the same for HDs, why are you the way you are, why are you selfish and want more sex than your partner desires? Can't you just accept us the way we are?


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> Love your posts - they give me hope. Maybe the solution for LDs is to read the forum then? >
> If nothing else, perhaps guilt could be a powerful aphrodisiac then...





FrenchFry said:


> It’s not. I lost a lot of sympathy for my HD husband due to these kind of discussions. Like Techmom, I just step back.





Cletus said:


> In the context of this discussion, I would be more inclined to say that maybe the solution for HDs is to read this thread.


It's interesting what the "take away" if for different folks from the discussions here on TAM. 

I did come here searching for insight, and although I have found TAM invaluable for more deeply understanding my husband, I never lost sympathy or respect for my husband based on crappy things said by HD men here. And sure, I found a lot of the comments crappy. But my husband is an individual who I have been with for going on 30 years. The insights I gained here--even those expressed though pain, anger, resentment and plain old misogyny--were easily gleaned from beneath the surface of the ongoing battles between the different factions here. At no time did I assume that my husband held the same attitudes towards me that were reflected towards LD's here. 

In short, I came here knowing that my husband is a good man. Why would anything I read here change that?

I happened to be the LD coming to look for insight into my HD husband. But as Cletus points out, there is much here to learn for everyone. 

I'm of the mind that you will find on TAM what you seek. Validation can be found here quite readily. Had I come here seeking validation instead of insight . . . well, I'm guessing my own story would not have turned out as it has.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Tech,

I think this is how it starts. Meaning the LD does meet the HD in the middle. And then it seems that what often transpires is this. 

The HD (man) who has a low tolerance for receiving disapproval from his partner, irradiates her with it himself. She isn’t as turned on as he is, she isn’t ... fill in the blanks with her sexual shortcomings...

And - oh yeah - not only is her response insufficient - but ummm - it is ALSO her fault. Because it’s a given that he is great at sex. All men are. 

Just for a moment - I will make a quantitative observation. I almost never hear the guys in sexless marriages talk about certain topics. They typically believe their technique is at least good. But as for pacing and affect - these are not topics they proactively mention. Which is odd to me, because I actually think my entire sex life is predicated on pacing and affect. 

Rushing a partner with responsive desire - feels BAD to them. And acting like the puppy who is jerking off by rubbing up and down against your calf muscle, rarely gets anyone wet. 

Horny puppy affect, plus male sex type pacing plus radiating disapproval combines to create an experience that the LD partner wants no part of. 

And then to cap it off - women aren’t wired for empathy towards grown men. So the fact that it has been a month since you last had sex - gets you no slack. Which might be unfair - but it’s true. 




techmom said:


> Most LDs do meet the HD in the middle, however it is not appreciated by HDs such as my husband because deep down inside they want their ideal mate who desires them as much as they do. All of this BS about the HD meeting the LD in the middle is not how it plays out in real life, only on forums like this do the HDs say that they sacrifice so much. I would like to get the spouses side, it would be a whole different story.
> 
> I hate sappy rom-coms, they perpetuate this myth of the LD who discovers their true sexual self by meeting the right person, i.e. "Stella Got her Groove Back". This is not how people are in real life, HDs bought into this myth and they really feel that everyone who says they are LD are lying or they don't know who they really are. As if HD is the default and everyone else is broken and needs therapy.
> 
> I don't need therapy, I don't need to find my true self, I don't have a buried sexual self to discover....I am who I am and I am accepting it fully.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I think that LD/HD can be of either gender, not sure which is more common. 

There ARE LD people who make an effort, and some HDs who appreciate that. Recently my wife has been making a real effort - and I really appreciate her trying, but the gap is still so very large. Its not her fault, its not my fault, but we will never be able to have a happy sex life together. Mostly I just try to hide from her how much it frustrates me. 

I'm often left not knowing how to react. If she pushes herself to do something for me - something that is a big deal for her, but not nearly what I want - Do I show appreciation and encouragement - or is that just pressuring her to do more things that she doesn't like? 

She wants to do things for me, but dislikes every specific thing that she can do. 




GettingIt_2 said:


> I think there are LD women who DO make the effort . . . not because they have a strong sex drive that makes them feel like it, but because they love their husband and want to please them.
> 
> Sadly, even the very best effort put forth by such a wife isn't good enough for some husbands, who expect to see their own depth of sex drive, their own depth of sexual desire, reflected back at them. That expectation, IMO, is usually a fruitless one, since a woman's sexuality typically works quite differently from a man's.
> 
> ...


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Sometimes the gap is so wide that each thinks that they have tried to meet in the middle but the other hasn't budged. For my wife doing something sexual every other week feels like she is putting in a huge effort - I expect that once every month or two is all she actually wants. For me, not getting too frustrated with once every other week feels like a huge effort because I'd like sex every other day. 

Some of these gaps are HUGE. 




techmom said:


> Most LDs do meet the HD in the middle, however it is not appreciated by HDs such as my husband because deep down inside they want their ideal mate who desires them as much as they do. All of this BS about the HD meeting the LD in the middle is not how it plays out in real life, only on forums like this do the HDs say that they sacrifice so much. I would like to get the spouses side, it would be a whole different story.
> 
> I hate sappy rom-coms, they perpetuate this myth of the LD who discovers their true sexual self by meeting the right person, i.e. "Stella Got her Groove Back". This is not how people are in real life, HDs bought into this myth and they really feel that everyone who says they are LD are lying or they don't know who they really are. As if HD is the default and everyone else is broken and needs therapy.
> 
> I don't need therapy, I don't need to find my true self, I don't have a buried sexual self to discover....I am who I am and I am accepting it fully.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

uhtred said:


> I think that LD/HD can be of either gender, not sure which is more common.
> 
> There ARE LD people who make an effort, and some HDs who appreciate that. Recently my wife has been making a real effort - and I really appreciate her trying, but the gap is still so very large. Its not her fault, its not my fault, but we will never be able to have a happy sex life together. Mostly I just try to hide from her how much it frustrates me.
> 
> ...


If you are asking me specifically, then I'd say show appreciation, if that is what you feel. 

But dialing things back a bit, why not ask her if your appreciation of her efforts make her feel pressured?

Yeah, I know it's not easy to have conversations about sex within an incompatible dynamic with a history of conflict. But that's where it all starts--if you want to know how your LD partner feels. . . then ask her.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

People who are HD really cannot imagine not wanting sex with their partners and can't imagine how it feel to LD to only be wanted for sex. People who are LD cannot imagine what it feels like to be constantly turned down by the person they love an don't understand how much they are hurting the HD.

A very few people have been on both sides, but they are rare. 




FrenchFry said:


> @inmyprime. You minimize the realities of what it is like for the LD partner to navigate a sexual incompatibility in a relationship. This is why dialogue is difficult. This is where my lack of sympathy stems from—the lack of it towards LDs unless it is a specifically approved reason.
> 
> So as much as I’d like to empathize with how bad it feels to be rejected, as long as the tack on dealingwith a lower drive seems to be “it’s just a little more sex,” my response will be “It’s just the word no, deal with it.”


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

uhtred said:


> I think that LD/HD can be of either gender, not sure which is more common.
> 
> There ARE LD people who make an effort, and some HDs who appreciate that. Recently my wife has been making a real effort - and I really appreciate her trying, but the gap is still so very large. Its not her fault, its not my fault, but we will never be able to have a happy sex life together. Mostly I just try to hide from her how much it frustrates me.
> 
> ...


The last sentence/paragraph in this post makes me shake my head... mostly because you actually believe it.


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## FrenchFry (Oct 10, 2011)

uhtred said:


> I think one thing that confuses some HDs is why their LD partners both don't want frequent sex AND don't want their partners having sex with anyone else or often don't even want them using porn.
> 
> Either by itself is completely reasonable, but at least for me it is the combination that is so frustrating. It feels like someone saying that they don't like spicy food, so you can't have any either.
> 
> I think the traditional exclusiveness of sex is what makes this so troublesome.


No lie, it confuses me too. I remember there being a case here where the wife was mad that the husband touched himself next to her and she was furious.

I don't understand the why, but I don't have to because even with perfect understanding, it doesn't change the outcome.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

So far I have been showing appreciation. I think that her sometimes doing things she doesn't like is less bad for her than her feeling like a complete failure sexually. I don't know, its just my guess.

Unfortunately in addition to being LD she is almost completely unable to discuss sex or how she feels about it. I think she knows how unhappy I am, so she sees every conversation as an attempt to pressure her into sex. 

I don't know if difficulty discussion sex is often paired with someone being LD. 





GettingIt_2 said:


> If you are asking me specifically, then I'd say show appreciation, if that is what you feel.
> 
> But dialing things back a bit, why not ask her if your appreciation of her efforts make her feel pressured?
> 
> Yeah, I know it's not easy to have conversations about sex within an incompatible dynamic with a history of conflict. But that's where it all starts--if you want to know how your LD partner feels. . . then ask her.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Why should I not believe it? If she enjoyed going sexual things she would do them more often. 



farsidejunky said:


> The last sentence/paragraph in this post makes me shake my head... mostly because you actually believe it.


----------



## FrenchFry (Oct 10, 2011)

uhtred said:


> Why should I not believe it? If she enjoyed going sexual things she would do them more often.


I don't think this is necessarily true.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

MEM2020 said:


> Tech,
> 
> I think this is how it starts. Meaning the LD does meet the HD in the middle. And then it seems that what often transpires is this.
> 
> ...


I have read this here. Meeting in the middle is not good enough. 



> Just for a moment - I will make a quantitative observation. I almost never hear the guys in sexless marriages talk about certain topics. They typically believe their technique is at least good. But as for pacing and affect - these are not topics they proactively mention. Which is odd to me, because I actually think my entire sex life is predicated on pacing and affect.
> 
> Rushing a partner with responsive desire - feels BAD to them. And acting like the puppy who is jerking off by rubbing up and down against your calf muscle, rarely gets anyone wet.
> 
> Horny puppy affect, plus male sex type pacing plus radiating disapproval combines to create an experience that the LD partner wants no part of.


Bad. Unsexy. Inadequate. Wrong. Bad. Guilty. Where does a person sign for this??



> And then to cap it off - women aren’t wired for empathy towards grown men. So the fact that it has been a month since you last had sex - gets you no slack. Which might be unfair - but it’s true.


I would not agree that women are wired to be unsympathetic toward men in general. But that sex as a response to empathy is degrading. Like who wants sex with their caring mother from a position of nurturing like tit sucking. The mental image of a guy rubbing his needy puppy parts and going Oh Please Me why don't you want it more could EVER be attractive or anything but using someone as a glory hole.


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## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

GettingIt_2 said:


> I think there are LD women who DO make the effort . . . not because they have a strong sex drive that makes them feel like it, but because they love their husband and want to please them.
> 
> Sadly, even the very best effort put forth by such a wife isn't good enough for some husbands, *who expect to see their own depth of sex drive, their own depth of sexual desire, reflected back at them.* That expectation, IMO, is usually a fruitless one, since a woman's sexuality typically works quite differently from a man's.
> 
> ...





MEM2020 said:


> I think the dynamic described below kills many sexual connections.


Mem,

For the most part think you give fairly decent advise. I know that I have never responded to you, because your larger works and words of advise wouldn't work for me. Nothing wrong with that. It is what it is. I know what I am capable of accepting, just as you know your limitations.
@GettingIt_2 did a good job of describing the frustrations of many LD's, on that I will agree. In many cases it would help if the HD was gracious in their acceptance of the giving of the LD spouse.

I bolded what I felt was the most important part of her comment. The fact that a HD partner desires to see their level of desire reflected back at them is what I consider to be the sticking point in a large portion of sexual incompatibilities.

I fail to see anything wrong with graciously declining when the LD is not expressing their optimum desire. I have no interest in happy duty sex or anything of the like. I don't want to be serviced. I want us each to experience good to great sex. As you so smartly put it in one of your threads, that's how I make sure bad sex is kept at a minimum. Human nature tells me that regardless of how happy a person is to make their spouse happy, in the end its just not sustainable.

At the end of the day, if my partner can't accept that I will politely decline anything less than good to great sex, then we have for bigger incompatibilities than just sexual.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

uhtred said:


> Why should I not believe it? If she enjoyed going sexual things she would do them more often.


That's pretty simplistic. There are a ton of things that I enjoy only given certain circumstances or very spontaneously or irregularly.


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## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> That's pretty simplistic. There are a ton of things that I enjoy only given certain circumstances or very spontaneously or irregularly.


Not trying to be an ass, but I don't think it's simplistic in Uhtred's case. His wife's idea of sex is a half assed hand job. Not making light of his situation, this is strictly based off of his own words.


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## Malaise (Aug 8, 2012)

uhtred said:


> Why should I not believe it? If she enjoyed going sexual things she would do them more often.


This may be true if you discount the possibility of her being controlling or sadistic. Not saying your W is, no, but it may be true in a few cases.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Windwalker said:


> Not trying to be an ass, but I don't think it's simplistic in Uhtred's case. His wife's idea of sex is a half assed hand job. Not making light of his situation, this is strictly based off of his own words.


Then I would guess that the advice that he is responding to does not apply to him nor does his response make much sense if his wife does not, in fact, like sex.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

farsidejunky said:


> All of those things are good lessons, brother.
> 
> The one lesson that I learned (in addition to what you posted) is that I can be a spouse that mirrors the quality of spousal service provided. In other words, if she doesn't feel bad over sex once or twice a month, she has little room to complain when I tell her "no" in regards to things that make her feel valued in the relationship.
> 
> ...


Very much this. I think it is important to emphasize as well, you aren't doing things (or not doing things) as a form of punishment or manipulation. It is what is necessary for peace of mind. Yeah, it doesn't lead to the most ideal relationship, but you can still be in a better place than otherwise.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

uhtred said:


> So far I have been showing appreciation. I think that her sometimes doing things she doesn't like is less bad for her than her feeling like a complete failure sexually. I don't know, its just my guess.
> 
> Unfortunately in addition to being LD she is almost completely unable to discuss sex or how she feels about it. I think she knows how unhappy I am, so she sees every conversation as an attempt to pressure her into sex.
> 
> I don't know if difficulty discussion sex is often paired with someone being LD.


I don't think any particular personality trait is paired with LD or HD. 

LD and HD, to me, describe a specific individual's sexual behavior and attitudes in a sexual dynamic with another specific individual. 

I find that, beyond that specificity, the terms "LD" and "HD" to be of limited utility in general discussion.


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## FrenchFry (Oct 10, 2011)

GettingIt_2 said:


> It's interesting what the "take away" if for different folks from the discussions here on TAM.
> 
> I did come here searching for insight, and although I have found TAM invaluable for more deeply understanding my husband, I never lost sympathy or respect for my husband based on crappy things said by HD men here. And sure, I found a lot of the comments crappy. But my husband is an individual who I have been with for going on 30 years. The insights I gained here--even those expressed though pain, anger, resentment and plain old misogyny--were easily gleaned from beneath the surface of the ongoing battles between the different factions here. At no time did I assume that my husband held the same attitudes towards me that were reflected towards LD's here.
> 
> ...


It is interesting, for sure.

I had been married *checks reg date* about a year and 1/2 when I came here. Had a ~year old kid. My husband was not good and now freely admits it. The pain, anger and resentment and misogyny was reflected here and a great deal of it validated his treatment of me which became significantly worse until I stopped with what I call the "pick-mes." Which partially explains my loss of sympathy--but that loss of sympathy freed me from being trapped in a prison of my own making.

At this point, nearing our 10 year unofficial anniversary I feel like I made the right choice and took the right actions. TAM did change my outlook completely and I do not know where I would be today without it.


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## FrenchFry (Oct 10, 2011)

Windwalker said:


> Mem,
> 
> I fail to see anything wrong with graciously declining when the LD is not expressing their optimum desire. I have no interest in happy duty sex or anything of the like. I don't want to be serviced. I want us each to experience good to great sex. As you so smartly put it in one of your threads, that's how I make sure bad sex is kept at a minimum.* Human nature tells me that regardless of how happy a person is to make their spouse happy, in the end its just not sustainable.
> *


I can't like this enough.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I should have added that she has also told me she doesn't like doing these things. I should have said that first. 




NobodySpecial said:


> That's pretty simplistic. There are a ton of things that I enjoy only given certain circumstances or very spontaneously or irregularly.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

uhtred said:


> I should have added that she has also told me she doesn't like doing these things. I should have said that first.


It sounds like you are in a genuinely sucky position.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

There are a wide range of behaviors that are considered "LD", just as there are for HD so I think it still applies to this conversation. 

In my wife's case there is a small set of things that she enjoys my doing for her, but only wants very occasionally. There is really nothing that she enjoys doing for me. Due to very infrequent sex, intercourse is no longer comfortable for her (and she is not willing to take any action to fix that). 

She feels guilty about my doing things for her, and her not reciprocating, so she does things for me, but doesn't enjoy doing so. 






NobodySpecial said:


> Then I would guess that the advice that he is responding to does not apply to him nor does his response make much sense if his wife does not, in fact, like sex.


----------



## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> Then I would guess that the advice that he is responding to does not apply to him nor does his response make much sense if his wife does not, in fact, like sex.


Agreed.
I believe Uhtred is one of the guys that has mostly found acceptance.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Ah, good. We've arrived at the classic HD/LD divide, complete with trenches, interlocked fields of fire, and mustard gas. 

There are things over which you cannot have compromise. These are the things that I consider sexual incompatibility. Sexual frequency? Hell, that's Stage 1 incompatibility (ignoring the sexless marriages), and almost without exception every marriage on the planet has had to navigate that one. 

Not all compromise is equal. Who on here would find this conversation acceptable:
"Honey, you know that thing that makes you throw up a little in your mouth? How about we compromise and only do that twice a month?" 

There's only one _compromise_ here that's acceptable - no blowjobs. Sorry, suck it up  or leave if you can't take that. But I started this thread to discuss the notion that you'll feel a helluva lot better about the "no blowjobs" if you let go of the notion that your spouse is being uncompromising when they just can't get there.

There's no lack of understanding on my wife's part. No "if only she KNEW how I felt". She feels it. She suffers just as much from the feelings of inadequacy as I do from the sexual frustration. The only workable compromise here is to graciously accept that which she is capable of offering and find other releases for the rest. That, and to appreciate the efforts at change when they come - even when they come at a geologic pace. Because change of any kind at least implies effort and understanding. Which is, realistically, the only compromise one can legitimately expect.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

FrenchFry said:


> I can't like this enough.


No kidding. HD folks, you want to think like an LD? Find something you genuinely don't feel like doing for your spouse. You don't have to hate it, but you must be at best ambivalent about doing it much of the time. Make sure it takes 30-60 minutes out of your day every time you do. Now do it 3x a week for 20 or 30 years, all the while with enthusiasm and a big fat insipid smile pasted across your face.

How effective do you think you'll be at convincing your spouse that this is something you really want to keep doing for them?


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Cletus said:


> Ah, good. We've arrived at the classic HD/LD divide, complete with trenches, interlocked fields of fire, and mustard gas.


I am running out of fun means of agreeing with your points.



> There are things over which you cannot have compromise. These are the things that I consider sexual incompatibility. Sexual frequency? Hell, that's Stage 1 incompatibility (ignoring the sexless marriages), and almost without exception every marriage on the planet has had to navigate that one.
> 
> Not all compromise is equal. Who on here would find this conversation acceptable:
> "Honey, you know that thing that makes you throw up a little in your mouth? How about we compromise and only do that twice a month?"


Oh! I remembered one! Winner, winner. Chicken dinner.



> There's only one _compromise_ here that's acceptable - no blowjobs. Sorry, suck it up  or leave if you can't take that. But I started this thread to discuss the notion that you'll feel a helluva lot better about the "no blowjobs" if you let go of the notion that your spouse is being uncompromising when they just can't get there.
> 
> There's no lack of understanding on my wife's part. No "if only she KNEW how I felt". She feels it. She suffers just as much from the feelings of inadequacy as I do from the sexual frustration. The only workable compromise here is to graciously accept that which she is capable of offering and find other releases for the rest. That, and to appreciate the efforts at change when they come - even when they come at a geologic pace. Because change of any kind at least implies effort and understanding. Which is, realistically, the only compromise one can legitimately expect.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

uhtred said:


> There are a wide range of behaviors that are considered "LD", just as there are for HD so I think it still applies to this conversation.
> 
> In my wife's case there is a small set of things that she enjoys my doing for her, but only wants very occasionally. There is really nothing that she enjoys doing for me. Due to very infrequent sex, intercourse is no longer comfortable for her (and she is not willing to take any action to fix that).
> 
> She feels guilty about my doing things for her, and her not reciprocating, so she does things for me, but doesn't enjoy doing so.


I don't agree that drive has much, if anything, to do with the bitterness of the weights and measures that people get into when looking at these issues. It's feelings.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Communication can be tricky.

Should the LD say "I really don't like doing this, but I'll put up with it once in a while" or instead pretend that they enjoyed it so that the HD doesn't feel like they are pressuring them, but then find excuses to only do it rarely?


Should the HD say "I know you are trying, but you really aren't able to do what I enjoy", or instead pretend that it was wonderful so that the LD won't feel inadequate?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

uhtred said:


> Communication can be tricky.
> 
> Should the LD say "I really don't like doing this, but I'll put up with it once in a while" or instead pretend that they enjoyed it so that the HD doesn't feel like they are pressuring them, but then find excuses to only do it rarely?
> 
> ...


Both of you learn to be honest and accept each other?


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> Both of you learn to be honest and accept each other?


Well, sure, but what does that mean functionally?

Does acceptance mean taking a gracious offer from your spouse that you know they are not really enjoying or does it mean saying "thanks but no thanks". Both are very different forms of acceptance. 

This is definitely one that I have struggled with over the years. The best I could do was to try to find the things that seemed to cause the least angst and accept them very occasionally when they were offered sincerely. I always felt a little "dirty" after the fact, but at the same time, that approach has led to small positive changes over the years. I call them small. She would call them pretty significant. Funny how that works.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> Very much this. I think it is important to emphasize as well, you aren't doing things (or not doing things) as a form of punishment or manipulation. It is what is necessary for peace of mind. Yeah, it doesn't lead to the most ideal relationship, but you can still be in a better place than otherwise.


This.

I have seen it said by @MEM2020 on multiple occasions, and it succinctly makes the point:

"I am not doing this to you. I am doing it for me."


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

uhtred said:


> I should have added that she has also told me she doesn't like doing these things. I should have said that first.


When I indicated earlier that it was sad you believed it, it was the part about her "wanting to".

This is the reality. Reality says that we do what we want to do, and avoid that which we don't. 

She does not want to do those things, or she would.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Cletus said:


> Well, sure, but what does that mean functionally?
> 
> Does acceptance mean taking a gracious offer from your spouse that you know they are not really enjoying or does it mean saying "thanks but no thanks". Both are very different forms of acceptance.


I honestly have no idea what that means for them. 



> This is definitely one that I have struggled with over the years. The best I could do was to try to find the things that seemed to cause the least angst and accept them very occasionally when they were offered sincerely. I always felt a little "dirty" after the fact, but at the same time, that approach has led to small positive changes over the years. I call them small. She would call them pretty significant. Funny how that works.


So would you say she knows that you feel dirty? Do you know that she DOES think them significant? Shrug.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

uhtred said:


> Communication can be tricky.
> 
> Should the LD say "I really don't like doing this, but I'll put up with it once in a while" or instead pretend that they enjoyed it so that the HD doesn't feel like they are pressuring them, but then find excuses to only do it rarely?
> 
> ...


Here is the big question though. Was the sexual incompatibility present from the start of the relationship? That, for some, is where the issue arises, I guess referred to as Bait & Switch.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Sometimes the truth is just too unpleasant. 

In our case the truth is probably that there is nothing she actually enjoys doing for me. There are things I am happy to do for her, but without some form of reciprocation I end up feeling resentful. Furthermore, while there is nothing she enjoys doing, she feels like she *should* do sexual things for me because she doesn't want to feel selfish. 

It is a wide gulf of incompatibility that cannot be bridged. What we do now is both sort of pretend that it isn't too bad. 










NobodySpecial said:


> Both of you learn to be honest and accept each other?


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

In our case it was always there, but we were both too young and too inexperienced to recognize it. We both expected things to naturally improve (in different directions as it turned out), and really did love each other so much that we gave it lots of time - too much time. 



EllisRedding said:


> Here is the big question though. Was the sexual incompatibility present from the start of the relationship? That, for some, is where the issue arises, I guess referred to as Bait & Switch.


----------



## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Cletus said:


> Well, sure, but what does that mean functionally?
> 
> Does acceptance mean taking a gracious offer from your spouse that you know they are not really enjoying or does it mean saying "thanks but no thanks". Both are very different forms of acceptance.
> 
> This is definitely one that I have struggled with over the years. The best I could do was to try to find the things that seemed to cause the least angst and accept them very occasionally when they were offered sincerely. I always felt a little "dirty" after the fact, but at the same time, that approach has led to small positive changes over the years. I call them small. She would call them pretty significant. Funny how that works.


I don't think it's either/or--a combo of both approaches is probably what most people do. 

Also, which would your prefer your wife do--say "thanks but no thanks" or "accept and feel secretly dirty" afterwards? Do you think your wife has a preference for which approach you should take? Have you talked to her about it?

(I"ll cop to intense curiosity about what things you accepted that made you feel "dirty.")


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

GettingIt_2 said:


> I don't think it's either/or--a combo of both approaches is probably what most people do.
> 
> Also, which would your prefer your wife do--say "thanks but no thanks" or "accept and feel secretly dirty" afterwards? Do you think your wife has a preference for which approach you should take? Have you talked to her about it?


I don't think I have an answer to that. It depends on the day of the week, I guess. She would say "if I offer, you are allowed to accept". That doesn't change the fact that I know that accepting the offer will be uncomfortable for her, and sex is one place where I take a very dim view of causing discomfort. 



> (I"ll cop to intense curiosity about what things you accepted that made you feel "dirty.")


Sorry, I didn't mean dirty in the sexual sense, I meant in the sense of a sexual partner willing to make his spouse feel bad in the bedroom. But to satisfy the question, we have managed to introduce a small amount of non-missionary sex into our routine. This is one of those things that she never considered a married couple would do, since she thinks that eye contact and kissing are absolutely essential requirements for intimacy. 

It's clear that she is not remotely aroused by any of that activity, but it doesn't seem to not be so intrinsically unlikable as it once was. So a few times a year, at her suggestion, I accept and keep my guilt in check.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Cletus said:


> I don't think I have an answer to that. It depends on the day of the week, I guess. She would say "if I offer, you are allowed to accept". That doesn't change the fact that I know that accepting the offer will be uncomfortable for her, and sex is one place where I take a very dim view of causing discomfort.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What if you had, at a much earlier point in your marriage, been able to keep your guilt in check and accept things she offered that you knew were outside her comfort zone? Or has it only been recently that she offered/agreed to such things?

In general: I know it's a fine line between accepting when you think it can lead to good things, and accepting when you suspect it's just building resentment in your spouse . . . but if your spouse is offering and willing, then I'd lean towards accepting. 

Old habits die hard, but if they never get a chance to become established as habits in the first place, then all the better.


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## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> Both of you learn to be honest and accept each other?


Agreed! 




uhtred said:


> Communication can be tricky.
> 
> _*Should the LD say "I really don't like doing this*_, but I'll put up with it once in a while" or instead pretend that they enjoyed it *so that the HD doesn't feel like they are pressuring them,* but then find excuses to only do it rarely?
> 
> ...


The bolder parts. When the LD spouse says that they don't like doing something then you tell them that's perfectly fine. I really don't want you to ever do anything that you don't want to do, AND MEAN IT. 

If you are honestly not pressuring them, then the feeling of pressure is 100% totally on them. That is their **** to own. 

As far as the LD partner feeling inadequate, all you can do is try to reassure them that it's ok. Past that, the feeling inadequate is totally on them. That again is their **** to own.

It really doesn't get any simpler. It's also honest and transparent.

Uhtred, I honestly think you try to damn hard to keep your wife from feeling any unhappy feelings. While admirable, it's unrealistic.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Somebody,

You are killing me. I’m laughing - to the point of hyperventilating. 

In the spirit of transparency - my challenge is that M2 represents womankind to me. This includes - civilization - not joking. AND close to zero empathy for adult males. Oh yeah - that includes me. Which is fine. Civilization is predicated on anxiety and disapproval. 





NobodySpecial said:


> I have read this here. Meeting in the middle is not good enough.
> 
> 
> Bad. Unsexy. Inadequate. Wrong. Bad. Guilty. Where does a person sign for this??
> ...


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Cletus said:


> To me, acceptance means what I claimed in the first post. That these things are not very much in my wife's control. It is unfair to lay the blame for our issues solely at her feet


The trick is that sometimes, these things *are* very much in the wife's control (or, more specifically, they are in her control if she chose to try to control them).

If this is the case, then absolving her of all responsibility would be a mistake.

While my case was not a classic "sexless marriage" situation, both my wife and I greatly regret that it took me over 20 years to make her understand what I needed; truly understand.

This a common theme among those that have experienced a turn-around.

So, while the chances of improvement are slim, I'd leave no stone unturned before giving up.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Cletus said:


> Well, sure, but what does that mean functionally?


Be honest with one another, agree you are incompatible, and divorce.

What does it mean if the couple foolishly chooses to stay together despite a substantial and irreconcilable mismatch? That they will spend the rest of their lives lying to one another. In that context, honesty and staying together are incompatible. The couple has to choose one or the other. We all know which one I chose. And we all know which one I urge other couples to choose.

It is possible to survive sexual incompatibility. It is NOT possible to stay together and be honest and be happy. So you can separate. Or you can lie. And if you stay and lie, chances are you will never be happy.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

But what to do when there is literally nothing that they want to do for you? They know that it really isn't OK, that you really don't want to be celibate for the rest of your life. Do you lie and tell them that it is OK? They probably wouldn't believe you if you did. 

In my case, I tell her its fine, but she knows it isn't. I really don't want her to do things she doesn't want to do, but at the same time I'm not happy with the situation, even though I know its not her fault. 





Windwalker said:


> Agreed!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

I think it's quite doable - maybe not for multiple items, but to do one thing your partner likes consistently and fairly well, absolutely yes it can be done. I did that for years

The rub is that it takes a sustained effort to be present while doing that thing. So, if your partner is demanding in general and/or does not put forth equivalent effort, you are going to feel burdened by exerting yourself without reciprocation.

Basically, it takes two to make it work. You have to create a virtuous cycle of giving, where I make the effort to give you what you want, and you do the same for me.



Cletus said:


> No kidding. HD folks, you want to think like an LD? Find something you genuinely don't feel like doing for your spouse. You don't have to hate it, but you must be at best ambivalent about doing it much of the time. Make sure it takes 30-60 minutes out of your day every time you do. Now do it 3x a week for 20 or 30 years, all the while with enthusiasm and a big fat insipid smile pasted across your face.
> 
> How effective do you think you'll be at convincing your spouse that this is something you really want to keep doing for them?


----------



## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

These things, carnal, sensual things are elemental to a marriage.

Providing comfort and warmth and smiles to your SO.
Holding each other, full length naked.

Anything short of that is just short of fulfilling.
And is hard to live with.

Hard to swallow, lack of tail, feathers, talons, nib and all. 

A terrible outcome to one's initial hopeful, now hopeless journey.

SCM-


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## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

uhtred said:


> But what to do when there is literally nothing that they want to do for you?
> 
> Accept it. Based off of your words, I consistently see contradictions in your wife's words from her actions. Accept it, Uhtred. You have to find contentment in your situation as you have said that you are not willing to lose the relationship. Know this though, if you can't find contentment in your situation, you, your wife, and your relationship will continue to suffer.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry, but I felt it necessary to break your comment down to answer properly.

Uhtred, when you and your wife quit lieing to each other and come to some level of acceptance, your lives will change dramatically. Until then, you will both continue to live is the hell you BOTH have created. I know we are polar opposites philosophically, but I truly do wish you luck on getting through your problems. You truly seem like a good man.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Holdingontoit said:


> Be honest with one another, agree you are incompatible, and divorce.
> 
> What does it mean if the couple foolishly chooses to stay together despite a substantial and irreconcilable mismatch? That they will spend the rest of their lives lying to one another. In that context, honesty and staying together are incompatible. The couple has to choose one or the other. We all know which one I chose. And we all know which one I urge other couples to choose.
> 
> It is possible to survive sexual incompatibility. It is NOT possible to stay together and be honest and be happy. So you can separate. Or you can lie. And if you stay and lie, chances are you will never be happy.


No one is required to lie. You may be required to mutually share in the discomfort of the truth of the matter. Happiness is not an all-or-nothing binary concept. It can still be managed overall with bumps in the road along the way. Mutual life goals, child rearing, compatible views on money, hobbies, and work do not suddenly become null and void because of a disconnect in the bedroom.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

MEM2020 said:


> Somebody,
> 
> You are killing me. I’m laughing - to the point of hyperventilating.


I don't know. Are you laughing AT me ... or near me? Sorry? I think? I guess you are not crying. So at least that is good.



> In the spirit of transparency - my challenge is that M2 represents womankind to me. This includes - civilization - not joking. AND close to zero empathy for adult males. Oh yeah - that includes me. Which is fine. Civilization is predicated on anxiety and disapproval.


Sigh. I think ALL society is predicated on anxiety and disapproval. There is a fine line of mental health that both accepts and fights. What the heck is it I am always saying? Something about balance.

ETA: My husband would be CRUSHED if I had zero empathy for him. Not for "adult males" as a class but for HIM. THAT would be a deal breaker for him.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Holdingontoit said:


> Be honest with one another, agree you are incompatible, and divorce.
> 
> What does it mean if the couple foolishly chooses to stay together despite a substantial and irreconcilable mismatch?


Not everyone would assume that this choice is foolish. It would not be the choice I would make.



> That they will spend the rest of their lives lying to one another. In that context, honesty and staying together are incompatible. The couple has to choose one or the other. We all know which one I chose. And we all know which one I urge other couples to choose.
> *
> It is possible to survive sexual incompatibility. It is NOT possible to stay together and be honest and be happy. * So you can separate. Or you can lie. And if you stay and lie, chances are you will never be happy.


Cletus, would I be misrepresenting you if I think you are the case that disproves this by what I have read?


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

GettingIt_2 said:


> I think there are LD women who DO make the effort . . . not because they have a strong sex drive that makes them feel like it, but because they love their husband and want to please them.
> 
> Sadly, even the very best effort put forth by such a wife isn't good enough for some husbands, who expect to see their own depth of sex drive, their own depth of sexual desire, reflected back at them. *That expectation, IMO, is usually a fruitless one, since a woman's sexuality typically works quite differently from a man's. *
> 
> ...


The bolded, the bolded, the BOLDED!

Exactly. This is an example of the non-problems that can become problems when people endorse the politically correct view that men and women's sex drives are exactly the same. Sure, just because something is generally true, doesn't mean it's true in any specific instance and people are very wise to keep that top of mind. But, to me, the big surprise would be if, given tens of thousands of years of evolution; hormonal differences; biological differences, the sexual response of men and women *were* the same. 

If the only thing that will satisfy men are women with the same sexual response as them, then there aren't going to be many happy matches.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> There are some incompatible marriages that can be improved -- and there are some that can't. The ones that can't are usually like this...where one spouse simply doesn't have the need or desire for sex that the other does and this is never going to change, therefore the sexual relationship rarely improves beyond maybe small changes.


How do you tell the difference?

How about someone who doesn't have the same "need or desire for sex" as their spouse, but who would be perfectly happy to have more sex if they knew that it would make their spouse happy and tighten their emotional bond?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Buddy400 said:


> The bolded, the bolded, the BOLDED!
> 
> Exactly. This is an example of the non-problems that can become problems when people endorse the politically correct view that men and women's sex drives are exactly the same.


Who is selling this supposedly PC position?


----------



## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

Cletus said:


> No one is required to lie. You may be required to mutually share in the discomfort of the truth of the matter. Happiness is not an all-or-nothing binary concept. It can still be managed overall with bumps in the road along the way. Mutual life goals, child rearing, compatible views on money, hobbies, and work do not suddenly become null and void because of a disconnect in the bedroom.


I almost didn't want to respond to this. 

Mutual discomfort of the truth? I'll absolutely agree with. Managed happiness? Yeah, it's called contentment and Meh.

The rest I totally disagree with. At 20 years, I consider mine a 50/50 split of good enough/not good at all.

All the other things you mentioned, I can also do by myself, and 99% of the time, ****ing excell at it! 

Marriage for the sake of marriage? Nope, not going to happen.

I'm happy you have found a place of acceptance. I wish more folks would. It also gives some of us the motivation to never accept a situation like this and to move on.

I wish you well.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Holdingontoit said:


> It is possible to survive sexual incompatibility. It is NOT possible to stay together and be honest and be happy. So you can separate. Or you can lie. And if you stay and lie, chances are you will never be happy.


Don't know if I necessarily agree that it is not possible to stay together and be honest/happy. There are so many degrees of happiness, and a lot of variables involved. Sure, you may not be the absolute most happiest possible, but you can still be happy in a sexually incompatible relationship. Not ideal, for some not possible, but for others it is possible.


----------



## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

uhtred said:


> But what to do when there is literally nothing that they want to do for you? They know that it really isn't OK, that you really don't want to be celibate for the rest of your life. Do you lie and tell them that it is OK?


You split up. What else is there to do? Unless there are sufficient compensations in the relationship to live with this, of course - for me, there would not be, most likely. What makes worth staying for you?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

As a generalization: IMO Women are more empathetic than men are to the very young and very old. Not so much to healthy men. 

As to empathy sex - us lads (me included) call that pity sex and generally find it unappealing. 




NobodySpecial said:


> I have read this here. Meeting in the middle is not good enough.
> 
> 
> Bad. Unsexy. Inadequate. Wrong. Bad. Guilty. Where does a person sign for this??
> ...


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Windwalker said:


> I'm happy you have found a place of acceptance. I wish more folks would. It also gives some of us the motivation to never accept a situation like this and to move on.


I almost didn't respond to this either, but the undercurrent of pity and disdain was too much to pass up. 

Umm, glad to be of service?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

MEM2020 said:


> As a generalization: IMO Women are more empathetic than men are to the very young and very old. Not so much to healthy men.


Sorry Mem. Love ya. That's a load of horse pucky.


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## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

Cletus said:


> I almost didn't respond to this either, but the undercurrent of pity and disdain was too much to pass up.
> 
> Umm, glad to be of service?


Sometimes in my bluntness, I come across the wrong way. For that I apologize. I feel pity as a hateful feeling and don't even use it on my worst enemies.

I obviously failed at my intent, as my initial reaction to your comment was visceral.

It's sometimes hard for us outsiders to accept a good person accepts their situation rather than change it, even if the person fully acknowledges what they are accepting.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> > There are some incompatible marriages that can be improved -- and there are some that can't. The ones that can't are usually like this...where one spouse simply doesn't have the need or desire for sex that the other does and this is never going to change, therefore the sexual relationship rarely improves beyond maybe small changes.
> ...


Cases like this will see improvement as soon as the HD spouse makes it clear then, right? If that's the case, we aren't normally going to find the HD around here. They will have fixed the issue to their satisfaction with simple communication.


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Cletus said:


> No kidding. HD folks, you want to think like an LD? Find something you genuinely don't feel like doing for your spouse. You don't have to hate it, but you must be at best ambivalent about doing it much of the time. Make sure it takes 30-60 minutes out of your day every time you do. Now do it 3x a week for 20 or 30 years, all the while with enthusiasm and a big fat insipid smile pasted across your face.
> 
> How effective do you think you'll be at convincing your spouse that this is something you really want to keep doing for them?


My wife enjoys getting into bed around 9 pm and watching mindless TV, let's say 'Law & Order' reruns or Dateline or 20/20 for an hour or so.

She does this almost every night. 

I never turn on the TV unless there's something that I specifically want to watch.

Sitting in bed in her pajamas watching TV with me is one of her favorite things to do. It helps her unwind. We talk some but mostly she just likes being near me.

I almost always spend that hour in bed with her (I also dislike watching TV in bed). She'll usually ask me to bring her a tea (if I haven't brought it already). 

Although I would never do this on my own or if it didn't mean so much to her, I make the most of it. Law & Order actually isn't half bad and 20/20 and Dateline have taught me that, regardless of whether or not there's reasonable doubt, the jury will almost always fry whoever's been accused of whatever (which I find disconcerting).

It's been 28 years.

Why do I spend all this time doing something with her that I wouldn't do on my own otherwise?

I love her. She loves me. I care about her happiness. She cares about my happiness. It makes me happy to make her happy. She doesn't take advantage of it. It's good for the marriage. 

There must be a couple of other good reasons that I can't come up with at the moment.


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> Who is selling this supposedly PC position?


The Feminazis! 

Or would that be Femi-Nazi's? "Feminazis" just doesn't look right.

I can never keep this stuff straight.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> Cases like this will see improvement as soon as the HD spouse makes it clear then, right? If that's the case, we aren't normally going to find the HD around here. They will have fixed the issue to their satisfaction with simple communication.


I think that the problem here is that people tend to underestimate what matters to others if it doesn't matter that much to them.

Sure, my wife would occasionally complain that I (and my boys) missed the bowl while peeing.

But, as often as she said that (once every couple of months?), I would be absolutely stunned if she were to somehow finally make clear to me that it made her miserable; that my lack of effort to stop doing it made her very unhappy.

If, somehow, I suddenly understood* THAT* to be what she was feeling all along; I'd react completely differently.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> > Cases like this will see improvement as soon as the HD spouse makes it clear then, right? If that's the case, we aren't normally going to find the HD around here. They will have fixed the issue to their satisfaction with simple communication.
> ...


I was just answering your question in the way you presented it, which implied the LD would be happy to engage sexually more often once they understood the HD was suffering. In your scenario, it shouldn't be difficult to get the point across. That's all I was saying. 

I'm not sure what to respond to this quoted post because now you are throwing in something different in the scenario.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> I was just answering your question in the way you presented it, which implied the LD would be happy to engage sexually more often once they understood the HD was suffering. In your scenario, it shouldn't be difficult to get the point across. That's all I was saying.
> 
> I'm not sure what to respond to this quoted post because now you are throwing in something different in the scenario.


Communication is hard.

I wasn't throwing "something different in the scenario". 

I was responding to your assumption that the LD easily would understand how the HD actually felt. I tried to use another (joking) situation as an analogy to help explain.

I was certain that my wife knew how I felt. I couldn't conceive of the possibility that she didn't. Once she finally understood, she swore she had no idea. I believe her.

So, no. I don't agree that "it shouldn't be difficult to get the point across".

It certainly wasn't for me.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

MEM2020 said:


> As a generalization: IMO Women are more empathetic than men are to the very young and very old. Not so much to healthy men.
> 
> .


Guilty as charged. Not that I'm proud of it. To make matters worse, if I'm feeling empathy, I'm not feeling sexual attraction . . . so my poor husband sorta has do settle for one or the other. 

Lucky me for me, he realllllyyyyy like sex. 

I've thought about this a lot, and I think it does tie into wanting a mate who is so capable and strong that he doesn't NEED my paltry empathy, let alone ever consider asking for it. 

I do choose to show empathy quite often, because I know it's the right thing to do . . . but that doesn't mean I was feeling it organically. 

I feel like a real **** even admitting it, but then again, it's all part and parcel of how my attraction works, so I try to acknowledge the feeling, but choose the behavior.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

GettingIt_2 said:


> Guilty as charged. Not that I'm proud of it. To make matters worse, if I'm feeling empathy, I'm not feeling sexual attraction . . . so my poor husband sorta has do settle for one or the other.
> 
> Lucky me for me, he realllllyyyyy like sex.
> 
> ...


How about seeing it as a form of nurturing? I find nurturing is in a lot of women's nature. Now I get it sometimes you just want hot sex as you should we all do. Plus no wife wants a weak husband, and no confident man wants his wife to think he is weak. But Sexual Healing is a well loved song for a reason.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

What I find interesting is how angry and strident this topic makes both sides. I suspect that there is a lot of damage done by both sides by their spouses. Rejection works that way I guess. This thread is probably one of the most heated I have ever read on this site. 

I also suspect if we were to change the subject to intimate conversation there would be a totally different reaction. However I don't think it is that much different. People yearn for intimacy, it's a natural thing. 

This post really doesn't give me much hope for marriages where the desire level is very different that's for sure. Divorce seems like a better choice. God help you if you think divorce is a sin.

Overall it's just depressing.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

sokillme said:


> How about seeing it as a form of nurturing? I find nurturing is in a lot of women's nature. Now I get it sometimes you just want hot sex as you should we all do. Plus no wife wants a weak husband, and no confident man wants his wife to think he is weak. But Sexual Healing is a well loved song for a reason.


Are you familiar with the term "VA-CLANG?" I've not used it for awhile. It's the sound of a woman's vagina slamming shut because she's so turned off. 

No, I'm afraid I don't nurture my husband very readily, either. 

I'm more of a "serve and obey" sort of gal.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

GettingIt_2 said:


> Are you familiar with the term "VA-CLANG?" I've not used it for awhile. It's the sound of a woman's vagina slamming shut because she's so turned off.
> 
> No, I'm afraid I don't nurture my husband very readily, either.
> 
> I'm more of a "serve and obey" sort of gal.


Interesting my wife and I nurture each other all the time. Acts of service is a big part of both our love languages. 

To each his own.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Just going to leave this here to make some people's head explode.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

For equal time.

Yes I know it's not exactly the same.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

FrenchFry said:


> So what if it is? Does that change the realities of your drive at all if your wife doesn’t like the reason you are HD? If I think you are emotionally stunted and expressing it through sex, does that make your drive invalid?
> 
> You don’t have to respect the why at all. It just is.


I disagree, the whys are very important. Are you rejecting me (hypothetical me) because you fell out of love? Because you have a headache and we just did it this morning? Or because you didn't like the way I behaved towards you or because (as you said), had I accepted the 'NOs' with a smile then you wouldn't be rejecting me as much?

It may not be important to you but the HD partner will be at their wit's end as to why.

And, more importantly, if, as you say that 'it's just is' then why mention the 'why' yourself in the first place? There is obviously something about your husband or his behaviour or the way he takes rejection that irks you a bit. Or you use it to implicitly justify why you are not in the mood as much as him instead of simply accepting *yourself* that you might be LD and that your husband has nothing to do with it.
It bothers me sometimes to read how one should embrace and accept LDs when LDs themselves often make a point that actually if the husband did this or that then he would be having much more sex as a result...
It's not really fair to have it both ways. If you yourself cannot accept that being LD has nothing to do with husband then how can the husband begin to accept the same?

You may or may not realise but even if you don't say this to him, he will sense that you might feel there's something wrong with him.
Somebody has to break the cycle.

I in any case think that everyone's LD-ness or HD-ness is in many cases for different reasons; sometimes it's biology, sometimes is partner's behaviour, sometimes it's partner itself or millions other reasons and combinations of thereof. Only the symptom of being LD/HD is the same.
That's why the WHY is so bloody important.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

farsidejunky said:


> Mostly acts of service; feeding her dogs for her, or taking initiative to get her something; offering to help when she clearly needs it. And understand that I have not shut this down completely, but rather just when I mostly feel like it. Honestly, the acts of service that I fulfill for her are probably at a much higher frequency than my posts make it sound.
> 
> Frankly, what she thinks of it is irrelevant. It's not that it doesn't matter as much as I don't pursue personal fulfillment based on what she may or may not think about it.
> 
> She wanted to feel less pressure over sexual fulfillment. She didn't want frequency to be as high. I am doing that in the only way I know that prevents me from building resentment.* I compromised.* If she can't do the same, it's time for us to part ways.


I completely understand the rationale. But I think you might be dressing up a subtle form of revenge (maybe too strong a word) as 'compromise'. 
If she loses interest in sex, you don't feed the dogs etc: it is not really a compromise. Even though I understand that perhaps it's the only language in which you are able to communicate to her (and that she can perhaps understand) that you are unfulfilled.
However I am not sure it is the best language if the goal eventually is to have a longterm fulfilling partnership, rather than friendly co-existence.

Maybe I am less of a pragmatist but more of an idealist when it comes to this (and probably just naive) but I want to be able to want to do things for my partner in an altruistic sense, without expecting anything in return and derive satisfaction just from that. That's what i imagined loving someone means. However I guess there comes a point where you just end up feeling like a masochist and hurt yourself in the process.
It's a *****, this love thing.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

GettingIt_2 said:


> It's interesting what the "take away" if for different folks from the discussions here on TAM.
> 
> I did come here searching for insight, and although I have found TAM invaluable for more deeply understanding my husband, I never lost sympathy or respect for my husband based on crappy things said by HD men here. And sure, I found a lot of the comments crappy. But my husband is an individual who I have been with for going on 30 years. The insights I gained here--even those expressed though pain, anger, resentment and plain old misogyny--were easily gleaned from beneath the surface of the ongoing battles between the different factions here. At no time did I assume that my husband held the same attitudes towards me that were reflected towards LD's here.
> 
> ...


It comes strongly across in your posts how much you love and respect your husband and it's admirable how much you are willing to do to make your marriage work. That's not to say that others who have 'crappy' comments about their partners don't love their partners. Sometimes it helps to just vent a little when everyday stuff gets in the way of what we perceive as an ideal partnership.

How we perceive our partner is a very strange concept if you think about it: we can't really _know_ what they are _really_ like. That would involve knowing all their thoughts and understanding their entire makeup. Even then we wouldn't really know.

We have certain ideals and chose a partner according to what fits closest to our ideals. Actually how we feel or how we want to feel about our partner seems more like a reflection of ourselves rather than anything else. When you are frustrated with yourself, you are more likely to feel frustrated with your partner too.
In that sense. Farside's approach (giving priority to your own life's fulfilment etc) may not be that bad as a starting point.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

I don't think I am especially good at sex. Just because I want it more or am more into experimenting doesn't mean I am any good as far as my partner's perception. I am not sure I even understand the concept of 'good': it doesn't make sense to be 'objectively good' at sex because you only have sex with one partner at a time (usually). So nobody is going to give you an average rating. So being good is how your current partner perceives you, right? And if your partner is LD and doesn't really want sex much if at all, aren't you going to be 'better' at it by becoming more disinterested in sex, and therefore, bad at it? 
(Provided LD means LD and not wanting their HD partner to become better at it. For a true LD partner it should not make any difference whether you are good or bad: their frequency will be their frequency. At least that's the theory. And I am pretty sure in many cases this is not the correct theory hence why we keep trying while being told that we shouldn't bother and just 'accept' because it just 'is' ).



MEM2020 said:


> Tech,
> 
> I think this is how it starts. Meaning the LD does meet the HD in the middle. And then it seems that what often transpires is this.
> 
> ...


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

uhtred said:


> She wants to do things for me, but dislikes every specific thing that she can do.


But do you know for a fact that she dislikes it? Sometimes doing something for someone else (even if it is not stimulating for her) can bring enjoyment in itself. I read it more that she perhaps isn't sure if she's doing it right and is perhaps insecure.
Just as a silly example, if I asked my wife to perform a BJ till completion while hanging upside down on a rope from a tall building, without using hands etc, I could easily mistake her lack of confidence in how to perform such an act for lack of enjoyment...
It always struck me that you yourself may not be projecting enough confidence to assure her that what she is doing is actually giving you pleasure, perhaps making her feel insecure in the process (I could be wrong).
I think there should be brownie points for trying (but without making it sound patronising!)


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

I have to say I am not so picky...
Also how do you know you are going to have lousy/great sex beforehand anyway?
I prefer the 'lets see what happens' sex and happy to be positively surprised. It also takes the pressure off the other person...



Windwalker said:


> Mem,
> 
> For the most part think you give fairly decent advise. I know that I have never responded to you, because your larger works and words of advise wouldn't work for me. Nothing wrong with that. It is what it is. I know what I am capable of accepting, just as you know your limitations.
> 
> ...


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

She has said that she doesn't like it. 

I do very much enjoy pleasing her, but she doesn't seem to get the same reaction - or at least not enough to overcome her dislike of the specific activities. 

She may lack confidence. I'm not sure what you mean about projecting my confidence. I am comfortable knowing what I enjoy but I also know that she doesn't enjoy those things. I'm often torn between wanting to respond very positively to her attempts, but also wanting to be honest when it isn't working. 




inmyprime said:


> But do you know for a fact that she dislikes it? Sometimes doing something for someone else (even if it is not stimulating for her) can bring enjoyment in itself. I read it more that she perhaps isn't sure if she's doing it right and is perhaps insecure.
> Just as a silly example, if I asked my wife to perform a BJ till completion while hanging upside down on a rope from a tall building, without using hands etc, I could easily mistake her lack of confidence in how to perform such an act for lack of enjoyment...
> It always struck me that you yourself may not be projecting enough confidence to assure her that what she is doing is actually giving you pleasure, perhaps making her feel insecure in the process (I could be wrong).
> I think there should be brownie points for trying (but without making it sound patronising!)


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

I think maybe I have very low expectations...but I do usually take every opportunity when sex might be 'on the table' so to speak and try to mix things up myself if I find they are getting boring or samey.

I don't mean to be too specific but over the years, I think I have 'weaned' my wife to do many things that she probably would generally not like doing. Attitudes can change I think. I think someone mentioned that the more horny one is, the less grossed out one tends to be by stuff. So whenever I wanted to try something different, I always made sure she was sufficiently turned on (or in the process). She is more agreeable then and sometimes crazy things happen. And after a while she actually learnt to enjoy some of those things. maybe it's my imagination but either way, I am not too fussy...I don't expect her to 'perform' or be excellent at something. I am usually so 'into it' and in the moment that I'm not sure I even notice. And I think she told me once that she likes it that way and doesn't feel comfortable when the spotlight is on her in any case.
As long as I get 'access' at reasonable intervals, I am pretty happy and just take it from there...Maybe because I am still a bit young & desperate.

I could probably live without blowjobs as long as my wife didn't deny me access to her. I think not everyone is talking about the same things on this thread (i.e. quality of sex). 

I don't know how bad things are for you- and maybe they are impossible to change so this might sound patronising, i don't mean it to.



Cletus said:


> Well, sure, but what does that mean functionally?
> 
> Does acceptance mean taking a gracious offer from your spouse that you know they are not really enjoying or does it mean saying "thanks but no thanks". Both are very different forms of acceptance.
> 
> This is definitely one that I have struggled with over the years. The best I could do was to try to find the things that seemed to cause the least angst and accept them very occasionally when they were offered sincerely. I always felt a little "dirty" after the fact, but at the same time, that approach has led to small positive changes over the years. I call them small. She would call them pretty significant. Funny how that works.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

uhtred said:


> She has said that she doesn't like it.
> 
> I do very much enjoy pleasing her, but she doesn't seem to get the same reaction - or at least not enough to overcome her dislike of the specific activities.
> 
> She may lack confidence. I'm not sure what you mean about projecting my confidence. I am comfortable knowing what I enjoy but I also know that she doesn't enjoy those things. I'm often torn between wanting to respond very positively to her attempts, but also wanting to be honest when it isn't working.


I am trying to work out what you might be talking about  I think there's no need for that kind of 'honesty'. Nobody wants an 'assessment' during sexual interaction. I think when something isn't working for me that she is doing, I just change it up (or position myself differently , without saying anything. It's good to stay fluid and it's perfectly normal for some things to feel better than others. 

Usually things work best when both are getting pleasure at the same time...I think you should insist on getting PIV back on track (get that cream for her, IIRC). If she is solely stimulating you, then I can see why she might not always find it enjoyable,
especially when you are being 'honest' about her performance (what was the context in which she said it she didn't enjoy it?).


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Cletus said:


> I don't think I have an answer to that. It depends on the day of the week, I guess. She would say "if I offer, you are allowed to accept". That doesn't change the fact that I know that accepting the offer will be uncomfortable for her, and sex is one place where I take a very dim view of causing discomfort.
> 
> Sorry, I didn't mean dirty in the sexual sense, I meant in the sense of a sexual partner willing to make his spouse feel bad in the bedroom. But to satisfy the question, we have managed to introduce a small amount of non-missionary sex into our routine. This is one of those things that she never considered a married couple would do, *since she thinks that eye contact and kissing are absolutely essential requirements for intimacy. *
> 
> It's clear that she is not remotely aroused by any of that activity, but it doesn't seem to not be so intrinsically unlikable as it once was. So a few times a year, at her suggestion, I accept and keep my guilt in check.


It's funny you mention this. I think I have come full circle to now actually find eye contact and kissing highly arousing! I have pretty much 'made her' do almost everything else possible over the years and many of the things she learnt to enjoy even more than me (to my surprise) but kissing and eye contact during sex maybe shouldn't be underestimated or under-appreciated! The thing is, I don't think she would never have known that she liked some of these things, if I didn't push. (Granted, they were not all successes..) But I think that's a very stereotypical make up: women tend to resist. Also a lot has to do with upbringing or maybe religion etc.


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## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> I have to say I am not so picky...
> Also how do you know you are going to have lousy/great sex beforehand anyway?
> I prefer the 'lets see what happens' sex and happy to be positively surprised. It also takes the pressure off the other person...


That's fine. That's totally within your right to not be so picky.

How do I know before hand? About 90% is predicated on her enthusiasm and desire level. If she is not really feeling it, I would just as soon pass. Here's the thing, the whole good to great measurement is based on how big of a pile of quivering flesh I have left on the bed. I really don't worry about mine. I'm a man. I will get mine. When she's laying there with her toes curled and eyes in the back of her head and struggling to catch her breath, that right there, that's good sex to me. I can play her body like a Stradivarius given the chance. She's also commented that she didn't think it was possible for a vagina to be physically assaulted during the act of sex. Lol. 

You make assumptions when you make the comment about pressure. My wife is not a trained seal commanded to cum on demand, although I'm sure with enough practice it could be done. Lol. I have only made the comment about passing on sex unless she has desire maybe once, in a calm discussion where we were having a discussion about our sex life. There has never been any implied or implicit pressure from me, nor will there ever be. I prefer to nurture in the bedroom.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

But that's all with hindsight (the quivering flesh bit). Has it not happened that things start out slow & boring but then change and end totally differently?
If most women have RD (and it seems they do), then one would not typically get the predicated enthusiasm before the act in any case so unless you have some tea leaves that others don't....
Maybe I am being too picky now with your comment  but I am trying to work out how to be able to predict it *beforehand*.



Windwalker said:


> That's fine. That's totally within your right to not be so picky.
> 
> How do I know before hand? About 90% is predicated on her enthusiasm and desire level. If she is not really feeling it, I would just as soon pass. Here's the thing, the whole good to great measurement is based on how big of a pile of quivering flesh I have left on the bed. I really don't worry about mine. I'm a man. I will get mine. *When she's laying there with her toes curled and eyes in the back of her head and struggling to catch her breath, that right there, that's good sex to me.* I can play her body like a Stradivarius given the chance. She's also commented that she didn't think it was possible for a vagina to be physically assaulted during the act of sex. Lol.
> 
> You make assumptions when you make the comment about pressure. My wife is not a trained seal commanded to cum on demand, although I'm sure with enough practice it could be done. Lol. I have only made the comment about passing on sex unless she has desire maybe once, in a calm discussion where we were having a discussion about our sex life. There has never been any implied or implicit pressure from me, nor will there ever be. I prefer to nurture in the bedroom.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I may not have made clear the scale of the problem. 

She does not want PIV ever. It became so rare that it became painful for her. She knows that working up to it gradually would make it comfortable again but doesn't want to engage in sexual activity that frequently. (note, yes we use lube. There are hormone creams that might help but she doesn't want to try).

How can I "insist" on PIV? she knows I would like it. She actually used to enjoy it every month or so - but she is not willing to take any action on it. Note - if I ask, she will agree that we should have sex more often - but in each individual instance there is some reason for her to say no. 

Its been over a year now - its not going to happen. 

She hurt her hands at some point and can't do HJs anymore. This issue really is valid, she is in for surgery in a few weeks - but it won't completely fix the problem.

Long ago she sometimes enjoyed anal but doesn't want to do that again. (that is fine, its something only for people who enjoy it).

She is not into any sort of kinky / unusual play and doesn't want to try. 

That pretty much leaves oral and she really dislikes doing that. She has been doing it some recently and I appreciate her efforts. That is where I am not sure if I should show appreciation or tell her not to because I know she very much dislikes doing it. On the few occasions in the past when I asked for oral, she told me she really disliked it. Recently she complained that it was the only thing she could do for me, but that she doesn't like doing it. 

So in our case "LD" means that she enjoys receiving oral, then my getting her off with a vibrator once every few weeks. There is nothing she enjoys doing in return, though she does now do oral in return (or before) when we do have "sex". She knows that she could change things, but doesn't want to because it would mean having more frequent sex. 

I have never told her that she was doing things badly in bed - quite the reverse. There was a time when all she wanted to do for me was use a vibrator on me - which I really don't enjoy, so I did tell her that. 








inmyprime said:


> I am trying to work out what you might be talking about  I think there's no need for that kind of 'honesty'. Nobody wants an 'assessment' during sexual interaction. I think when something isn't working for me that she is doing, I just change it up (or position myself differently , without saying anything. It's good to stay fluid and it's perfectly normal for some things to feel better than others.
> 
> Usually things work best when both are getting pleasure at the same time...I think you should insist on getting PIV back on track (get that cream for her, IIRC). If she is solely stimulating you, then I can see why she might not always find it enjoyable,
> especially when you are being 'honest' about her performance (what was the context in which she said it she didn't enjoy it?).


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## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> But that's all with hindsight (the quivering flesh bit). Has it not happened that things start out slow & boring but then change and end totally differently?
> If most women have RD (and it seems they do), then one would not typically get the predicated enthusiasm before the act in any case so unless you have some tea leaves that others don't....
> Maybe I am being too picky now with your comment  but I am trying to work out how to be able to predict it *beforehand*.


Slow maybe. Boring, only when she was on her chemically induced sexual coma from the Depot shot. Before I learned to wean myself off of anything less than enthusiastic participation. Boring is not even in the vocabulary now. 

Responsive desire? What's that? Lol. I joke. Guess I'm lucky as she initiates as much if not more than me. So in the case of responsive desire, that generally doesn't happen until about the 4 or 5 encounter in a row sometimes as low as the 3rd depending on the intensity. We have both been known to call for a night to recover, only to pick up immediately at the same intensity. The first 5 years of marriage we consistently got together no less than about 9 times a week on average. 

There are no magic tea leaves. I am a firm believer in watching and learning every reaction she makes. The fact that my wife is primarily not responsive desire certainly helps.

I do believe that there are a couple of factors there that help things as well.

One being that I was a late joiner to the sex game.

Had one girlfriend and married the next one. I mistakenly equated lust with love and ended up in a dead bedroom very shorty after marriage.

I swore to learn how not to be a ****ty lover after my first marriage fell apart. I still haven't succeeded in my opinion. 

I'm a constant over achiever. Borderline OCD on that aspect.

We happen to be almost perfectly sexually matched. We have incredible chemistry.

The wife, while more partners than me, really had not much more experience than myself. There are days when I like to thank all the piss poor excuses for lovers she had.

Now, up until this point the discussion has been strictly about vanilla sex. Over 20 years we have introduced a near limitless number of things to the bedroom. I thank my lucky stars every day she has allowed me to help her on this path. Our hard limits are a rather short list. Fire, animals, scat, other people, maybe a few other that escape at the moment.

Not being picky about my statements. It's a rather bold statement to make. 
I hope this answers your question.


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## WildMustang (Nov 7, 2017)

uhtred said:


> I may not have made clear the scale of the problem.
> 
> She does not want PIV ever. It became so rare that it became painful for her. She knows that working up to it gradually would make it comfortable again but doesn't want to engage in sexual activity that frequently. (note, yes we use lube. There are hormone creams that might help but she doesn't want to try).
> 
> ...


 @uhtred, I have followed your story for a long time and I mean no disrespect but it almost seems like there is a dynamic at play in your marriage, where your wife is a bit of a sadist and you are a bit of a mashochist. I am not passing judgement, just observing and trying to make sense of it.

You are good man and I wish you nothing but happiness and *many BLESSINGS!*


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> Sorry Mem. Love ya. That's a load of horse pucky.


My anecdotal experience says otherwise.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

uhtred said:


> I may not have made clear the scale of the problem.
> 
> She does not want PIV ever. It became so rare that it became painful for her. She knows that working up to it gradually would make it comfortable again but doesn't want to engage in sexual activity that frequently. (note, yes we use lube. There are hormone creams that might help but she doesn't want to try).
> 
> ...


I really, really hesitate to say this. But have you considered that she is just plain being a selfish <insert not very nice expletive here>? Every excuse in the book not to bother trying to do anything genuinely with or for you, but yah, you can do me! Game on! Or that her head is bent around sex? One does not have to be a victim of brutal (or even non-brutal) assault to have whacky notions around sex. MANY of us were raised that sex is this horrible, awful thing you only have to do with your husband, and after the childbearing years not much after.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

farsidejunky said:


> My anecdotal experience says otherwise.


I guess I was responding only to the first sentence that women are wired not to empathize with men. I probably added the period there forgetting the context of the thread being sexual compatibility, and that despite the second sentence expressing the relationship between empathy and sex, took it in the absolute. 

I definitely agree that empathy and sexuality are not linked, even at odds. I think it is a poor way to develop a healthy sexual relationship. For anyone. As MEM said, guys don't like "pity" sex either. I DO think that people look at sexual differences (extended past the scope of this thread which is basic incompatibility) too simplistically in terms of drive which though seemingly closer to measurable is the smallest part of the operative stuff going on.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> I definitely agree that empathy and sexuality are not linked, even at odds.


This confuses me. I have only become aware of this attitude from reading others online. It isn't true for me so it is hard for me to understand it.

When my man is hurting, I feel empathy for him and that feeling doesn't va-clang me at all. It can sometimes even turn me on. Nurturing him in other various ways can turn me on, too. 

If anything, I would only feel turned off it I felt he was lacking empathy for me at a time I needed support. But being turned off by him when he needs support? I can't relate. I wouldn't be able to connect with him at all if he never showed any vulnerability or that he had emotional needs. 

I'm curious about this dynamic and wonder why it occurs, but is also a thread jack so I'm not sure if posting more about it here is relevant.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> This confuses me. I have only become aware of this attitude from reading others online. It isn't true for me so it is hard for me to understand it.
> 
> When my man is hurting, I feel empathy for him and that feeling doesn't va-clang me at all. It can sometimes even turn me on. Nurturing him in other various ways can turn me on, too.
> 
> ...


I think it is a trait of a submissive. 

You have never struck me as such, FW.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

It has occurred to me - along with a lot of other possibilities. I had a long thread on it earlier. Possibilities:

1) She is LD in the sense of not having much interest in sex, and really not understanding anyone else interest. She is in a sort of "information bubble" where she believes that "normal" people don't really have much sex and that I'm just being unreasonable in wanting it. The bubble is so solid that she sees no reason to look outside of it.

2) She has serious sexual hangups, maybe from early abuse, maybe from her upbringing. She can't bring herself to talk about it, she really wants to be more sexual but can't do so, and can't get help.

3) She is a selfish (derogatory term) who is mildly LD. She gets what she wants when she wants, and doesn't care about me

4) She if an evil manipulative (derogatory term) who is mildly LD. She uses her lower need for sex to manipulate me

5) She is a lesbian and can't admit it to me, and maybe not to herself

6) She is actually banging the pool-boy, the mailman, her boss, and half the local sports team while she laughs at me behind my back.

7) She actually would like more sex, but a very unfortunate set of physical issues prevent her from really physically enjoying it.

8) She enjoys sex but was raised to think that it was "wrong" and can't get past that. 

9) Despite my best efforts, I actually suck in bed.

10) She likes sex, but is just not attracted to me. She finds my body or personality a complete turn-off.

11) She lives in a romantic fantasy world of sexy vampires and dashing cowboys and I just don't measure up. 

12) An unfortunate but dull combination of issues: She is LD. She has some physical issues that make sex less enjoyable. She isn't particularly turned-on by me (not disgusted, but just doesn't find me sexy). She doesn't particularly enjoy sex when it happens. Is mildly selfish, etc etc. 

13) I have a wildly inflated idea of my own worth and desirability, and no woman would be particularly interested in me.


That the thing - what looks like "LD" behavior can be caused by such a wide range of things, and it can be surprisingly difficult to distinguish then. Lack of desire can look like selfishness. Insecurity can look like manipulation. 

I honestly can't rule out any of the options above, but my bet is on #12. That there is no "cause" but just the result of a lot of minor things that all add up. 









NobodySpecial said:


> I really, really hesitate to say this. But have you considered that she is just plain being a selfish <insert not very nice expletive here>? Every excuse in the book not to bother trying to do anything genuinely with or for you, but yah, you can do me! Game on! Or that her head is bent around sex? One does not have to be a victim of brutal (or even non-brutal) assault to have whacky notions around sex. MANY of us were raised that sex is this horrible, awful thing you only have to do with your husband, and after the childbearing years not much after.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

GettingIt_2 said:


> Guilty as charged. Not that I'm proud of it. To make matters worse, if I'm feeling empathy, I'm not feeling sexual attraction . . . so my poor husband sorta has do settle for one or the other.
> 
> Lucky me for me, he realllllyyyyy like sex.
> 
> ...


It seems to me that many women have a significant difference between what they* think* they should be attracted to and what they *are* attracted to.

I think this conflict causes a good deal of trouble for women. If your rational side wins out and you pursue what you think you should be attracted to, your sex life suffers. If you pursue what you're actually attracted to, you may feel bad about yourself or wonder why you never choose the guys you want. 

This isn't, in any way, intended to imply that there is anything wrong with women or better about men.

What I like so much about you is that you "acknowledge the feeling, but choose the behavior". That seems like the best approach.

My experience is that most women don't acknowledge the feeling and, therefore, don't seem to deal with it effectively.

Also, it leads to men getting very confused when they try to be what women say they want and it doesn't get them anywhere.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> Cletus, would I be misrepresenting you if I think you are the case that disproves this by what I have read?


I would say that I am happily married. I would not stay in a relationship that offered no positive benefits, especially a sexually challenged one. I think we are at long last honest about our differing sexual styles. 

I doubt that those with a fixation on projecting their values onto my marriage will much care to hear that, however. Talk About Divorce seems to be a better name for the forum some days.


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## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

uhtred said:


> It has occurred to me - along with a lot of other possibilities. I had a long thread on it earlier. Possibilities:
> 
> 1) She is LD in the sense of not having much interest in sex, and really not understanding anyone else interest. She is in a sort of "information bubble" where she believes that "normal" people don't really have much sex and that I'm just being unreasonable in wanting it. The bubble is so solid that she sees no reason to look outside of it.
> 
> ...


Uhtred,

You an intelligent and good man. I hate to see you suffer. You obviously know the game. The only qualifier I would throw out there is that she is more than mildly selfish.

I still think you need to allow her to bare discomfort on her own, without you coming to the rescue every time something happens. You have a hell of a case on oneitis, KISA, and Nice guy syndrome all at the same time. 

2 books that would do you wonders. No more mister nice guy, and the the subtle art of not giving a ****.

Have you read them?
You should.


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## WildMustang (Nov 7, 2017)

Faithful Wife said:


> This confuses me. I have only become aware of this attitude from reading others online. It isn't true for me so it is hard for me to understand it.
> 
> When my man is hurting, I feel empathy for him and that feeling doesn't va-clang me at all. It can sometimes even turn me on. Nurturing him in other various ways can turn me on, too.
> 
> ...


*^^^^^^^ THIS! Exactly THIS!*


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## Notself (Aug 25, 2017)

Faithful Wife said:


> When my man is hurting, I feel empathy for him and that feeling doesn't va-clang me at all. It can sometimes even turn me on. Nurturing him in other various ways can turn me on, too.


Everyone is different, but my own experience and years of circumstantial evidence have taught me that you are in a distinct minority. In general, women want men who never show that they're hurt. Male feelings of sadness, weakness, or vulnerability usually equal a BIG va-clang.

In relationships, men are the protectors. Women who feel forced to do any protecting get resentful.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Notself said:


> Everyone is different, but my own experience and years of circumstantial evidence have taught me that you are in a distinct minority. In general, women want men who never show that they're hurt. Male feelings of sadness, weakness, or vulnerability usually equal a BIG va-clang.
> 
> In relationships, men are the protectors. Women who feel forced to do any protecting get resentful.


I don't think it is a majority of women who are like this...but obviously many more than I realized.

In talking to friends and other women about sex, and getting stories about what turns them on and off and why, giving nurturing or empathy to a man has never come up as a turn off in any women I've talked to. I mean, but I've never heard one who had an "extra needy" husband or whatever...maybe I am just not understanding this dynamic because it is so outside my experience.

When my man comes home from a long day at work and has had a bad day, if he will accept nurturing and empathy from me, I'm so happy to make him feel better. 

If he is sick or needs a procedure, I love nursing him back to health.

I feel ultra feminine in that role, and the men I've been with really beam and shine when I pour love on them like that. And once they recover they are all about telling and showing me how much it meant to them.

I have never not felt protected at any of those times...I knew he'd still rise up and kill a bear to defend me if necessary, but he was just allowing me to nurture him while he was healing. 

I can understand how a whiny husband would be a turn off...but that is not what I interpreted in the lack of empathy discussion...it sounded more like, literal lack of empathy, like, at all. :scratchhead:

I can also understand how a constantly needy or immature man would be a turn off...but I've never really experienced one of those and it seems if you were married to one, then you married that part of him too so it is still confusing to me. Having said that though, being "needy" is totally different than having needs, and I absolutely couldn't be with a man who didn't have emotional needs that he was able to express and get fulfilled.


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## WildMustang (Nov 7, 2017)

Notself said:


> Everyone is different, but my own experience and years of circumstantial evidence have taught me that you are in a distinct minority. In general, women want men who never show that they're hurt. Male feelings of sadness, weakness, or vulnerability usually equal a BIG va-clang.
> 
> In relationships, men are the protectors. Women who feel forced to do any protecting get resentful.


While I love and need a strong, protective, dominant man, I also recognize we are all human and we all have feelings. I don't need or want my man to pretend he is some kind of machine without feelings, nor would I be attracted to that. It would actually turn me off if I were in a close, sexual, intimate relationship with a man and he could not open up to me and be intimate with me and allow himself to be fully seen by me. Such a dynamic would also hinder me from feeling safe in being completely vulnerable and fully "seen" by him.

It would affect our sex life in a negative way.

I have loads and loads of empathy for men. I don't understand women who don't. It truly baffles me to read that some women don't? Makes me wonder if the women who don't have empathy for men is due to conditioning of the current sex wars or modern feminism. I don't know...just wondering out loud, trying to make sense of it. It seems bizarre to me.

Do such women not realize how tough it is to be a man, especially in this day????

Yes, I know it is also hard to be a woman in today's world, as I am a woman and I live it daily, hourly. But the topic I am addressing is the idea that women don't have empathy for men.

It's a tough world we live in. When I am in a relationship, it's us against the world. I have his back and he has mine. I am a safe port of refuge for him, a safe place for him to land and be fed, watered, loved, nurtured, adored, cherished, thoroughly f*cked, built back up when the world beats him down, so he can again go out into the world and fight the good fight. 

I have a pretty wide submissive streak in me, so perhaps that helps explain it as another poster mentioned. Or maybe I just have a lot of natural empathy and compassion for both men and women anyway, who knows?


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## WildMustang (Nov 7, 2017)

Faithful Wife said:


> I don't think it is a majority of women who are like this...but obviously many more than I realized.
> 
> In talking to friends and other women about sex, and getting stories about what turns them on and off and why, giving nurturing or empathy to a man has never come up as a turn off in any women I've talked to. I mean, but I've never heard one who had an "extra needy" husband or whatever...maybe I am just not understanding this dynamic because it is so outside my experience.
> 
> ...


*YES! THIS! ALL OF THIS! ^^^^*

I could not have said it better.

I wonder if it is the polarity of the feminine and the masculine, the pull of yin and yang forces feeding off each other.


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## Notself (Aug 25, 2017)

WildMustang said:


> Makes me wonder if the women who don't have empathy for men is due to conditioning of the current sex wars or modern feminism. I don't know...just wondering out loud, trying to make sense of it. It seems bizarre to me.


Pretty sure you just hit the nail on the head right there.



> Do such women not realize how tough it is to be a man, especially in this day????


Nope. And they don't care to. Because only women have it tough, don't you know! All women are victims at the hands of horrible men.

I'm perfectly willing to admit that there are many, many horrible men out there. But third-wave feminists aren't interested in shouldering any of the blame whatsoever for the ongoing, endless gender war. It's men's fault! ALL men!!


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

WildMustang said:


> I have a pretty wide submissive streak in me, so perhaps that helps explain it as another poster mentioned. Or maybe I just have a lot of natural empathy and compassion for both men and women anyway, who knows?


But what @farsidejunky said was that he thinks the lack of empathy thing is more common in submissive women. 

I'm just confused by it completely and don't see the correlation to sub or dom part of things, but maybe I'll start a thread in the ladies lounge so as not to continue the hi-jack.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Notself said:


> Pretty sure you just hit the nail on the head right there.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sigh....dang....and I was hoping you might be a good new contributor...but if its just all gonna be that crap all over again.....oh well.


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## Notself (Aug 25, 2017)

Faithful Wife said:


> Sigh....dang....and I was hoping you might be a good new contributor...but if its just all gonna be that crap all over again.....oh well.


I knew you were a third-waver as soon as I read your sig. It's really funny to make fun of men! Because men suck, right? :|


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Notself said:


> I knew you were a third-waver as soon as I read your sig. It's really funny to make fun of men! Because men suck, right? :|


My sig is a direct quote from a MRA dude who said it here at TAM once, and I thought it was so freaking hysterical and ridiculous that I made it my sig.


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## WildMustang (Nov 7, 2017)

Faithful Wife said:


> But what @farsidejunky said was that he thinks the lack of empathy thing is more common in submissive women.
> 
> I'm just confused by it completely and don't see the correlation to sub or dom part of things, but maybe I'll start a thread in the ladies lounge so as not to continue the hi-jack.


Oh...I interpreted it as him meaning the *ABILITY* for women to have empathy for men, is a submissive thing. Perhaps I misunderstood.

Edit: Or maybe he was saying the ability for men to have empathy is submissive in men??? I don't know what he meant.


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## Notself (Aug 25, 2017)

Faithful Wife said:


> My sig is a direct quote from a MRA dude who said it here at TAM once, and I thought it was so freaking hysterical and ridiculous that I made it my sig.


MRAs are just as ridiculous as feminists, and without any of the academic thought to back it up. But new people like me won't know that it's a direct quote from an MRA.


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## FrenchFry (Oct 10, 2011)

Cletus said:


> I would say that I am happily married. I would not stay in a relationship that offered no positive benefits, especially a sexually challenged one. I think we are at long last honest about our differing sexual styles.
> 
> I doubt that those with a fixation on projecting their values onto my marriage will much care to hear that, however. Talk About Divorce seems to be a better name for the forum some days.


I guess the question is with acceptance, do you feel like there is a chance to blow it all up?


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

FrenchFry said:


> I guess the question is with acceptance, do you feel like there is a chance to blow it all up?


Sorry, I'm not sure that I understand the question.


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## FrenchFry (Oct 10, 2011)

Sorry, it was an awful editing of my question to you!

So, your OP has these kind of guidelines written out on acceptance and how you have changed your attitude towards your sex life and your wife--mainly, that you are staying because despite the extreme sexual negatives, the positives outweigh it.

Beyond the game-changers like an affair or abuse, looking down the road do you see this dynamic changing significantly? Is your frustration gone or just well managed? How does your wife feel about your attitude?

What are your next steps?


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Cletus said:


> I would say that I am happily married. I would not stay in a relationship that offered no positive benefits, especially a sexually challenged one. I think we are at long last honest about our differing sexual styles.
> 
> I doubt that those with a fixation on projecting their values onto my marriage will much care to hear that, however. Talk About Divorce seems to be a better name for the forum some days.


I think some of the projection you see here is a direct function of what brings a lot of folks to the SIM forum initially--they are looking for ways to improve their sex lives, not accept them. They still have some hope, are looking for something they might have missed. 

Folks (particularly HD folks) who are still looking for improvement and change often aren't ready to hear "you might have to accept it and find another way to be happy." Arriving at that point can take years, and sometimes the marriage doesn't survive those years. 

On the other hand, I think your message about letting go of blame and resentment is a crucial one, and if adopted along side some of the other advice given here in regards to sexless marriage, could actually increase the efficacy of that other advice advice.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> I can also understand how a constantly needy or immature man would be a turn off...but I've never really experienced one of those and it seems if you were married to one, then you married that part of him too so it is still confusing to me. *Having said that though, being "needy" is totally different than having needs,* and I absolutely couldn't be with a man who didn't have emotional needs that he was able to express and get fulfilled.


I think this is in the eye of the beholder. Like so many things, there's a huge spectrum of what's perceived as having needs vs being needy. It would seem that some view having any needs at all (especially of the emotional variety) as being needy.

For me, the thought of play-acting as an automaton for the purpose of keeping my wife turned on sounds even lonelier than being sexless.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

FrenchFry said:


> Sorry, it was an awful editing of my question to you!
> 
> So, your OP has these kind of guidelines written out on acceptance and how you have changed your attitude towards your sex life and your wife--mainly, that you are staying because despite the extreme sexual negatives, the positives outweigh it.
> 
> ...


My wife is resigned to it. Like everyone, she wishes I could just be completely satisfied with her as she is, but vaguely understands - in the same way anyone understands feelings they do not share - why I cannot. 

She expects me to be faithful to her, and if that is not possible, then to dissolve the relationship, but really hopes that doesn't happen. I screwed the pooch on this one once and will not get a second chance. 

A combination of age, wisdom, and acceptance keeps my frustration well managed. There are two kinds of frustration that sometimes pop up - the first is when I struggle with a desire that's not acceptable and the other is when I lose or fail to reciprocate arousal because I see just one more Same ol' Same ol' night in the sack, and that just doesn't seem as compelling as a good night's sleep. So there is an active mental process of repeating "enjoy what you have for its own sake" instead of obsessing over what can't be.

My expectations for her are to be as accommodating as possible and understanding when I'm pouting a little about it. In return, I try not to ask too frequently for the things that are allowed but not really enjoyed, and to sometimes even say no when offered as a show of good faith. 

I don't expect this pattern to ever change. If the marriage suddenly became sexless, that would be a rewrite-the-rules event, but no-sex has never been her personal peccadillo. She desires me, initiates at least once a week, and participates enthusiastically if somewhat reservedly when we do. So there are no next steps. This is the end game.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Do Women Lack Empathy for Men?

FYI to those who are interested: Faithful Wife started a thread in Ladies Lounge to continue discussion of women's empathy towards men.


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## FrenchFry (Oct 10, 2011)

Cletus said:


> A combination of age, wisdom, and acceptance keeps my frustration well managed. There are two kinds of frustration that sometimes pop up - the first is when I struggle with a desire that's not acceptable and the other is when I lose or fail to reciprocate arousal because I see just one more Same ol' Same ol' night in the sack, and that just doesn't seem as compelling as a good night's sleep. *So there is an active mental process of repeating "enjoy what you have for its own sake" instead of obsessing over what can't be.*


My millennial, therapy ridden compatriots call the bolded mindfulness and I find the practice helpful in a lot of areas, especially these days.


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## Handy (Jul 23, 2017)

* wildMustang
Makes me wonder if the women who don't have empathy for men is due to conditioning of the current sex wars or modern feminism. I don't know...just wondering out loud, trying to make sense of it. It seems bizarre to me.*

One woman I know said, in general, women were looked at as "less than a man" (value wise) and now it is time wome did things for them self and men need to support women to make up for all that women gave, but didn't get, in the past.

In other words, "fella take care of yourself without my help. Women need to make up what for they gave away but weren't rewarded for in the past

*Notself
Nope. And they don't care to. Because only women have it tough, don't you know! All women are victims at the hands of horrible men.*

Yes some women say this and some take the opposite side. It is good to know people that see what is really happening and shy away from stereotypes.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

WildMustang said:


> While I love and need a strong, protective, dominant man


Genuinely curious. You're heart seems to be in the right place.

But.... how can a man be strong and dominant if he has weaknesses or areas where he feels that he isn't dominant?

I guess there are other feelings that might be okay ("I just chopped off a finger and it sorta stings"), but surely saying things like "I just don't know what to do" or "I just don't think I'm capable of doing it" or "I just can't decide what's best" must be a problem, right?


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Cletus said:


> My wife is resigned to it. Like everyone, she wishes I could just be completely satisfied with her as she is, but vaguely understands - in the same way anyone understands feelings they do not share - why I cannot.


Cletus (and anyone else who cares to answer),

When you say your wife is resigned to the current arrangement, what exactly is her regret about it? Is she upset that her sexual ability is pretty far below the average and isn't enough to make you content? Or, is her regret that you have to have some sort of regular sex to stick around, as in "I'd rather not do anything at all, but Cletus won't put up with that, so I have to do what I have to do".

My point is that attitude matters. I can accept an unspectacular effort from someone who is trying their very best to provide. I won't tolerate someone with a low or erratic drive who resents me for having an average drive and/or expects that I be okay with whatever she feels like providing (that would be my XW and a past GF).


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

This was my thought too; maybe not that she's a selfish <expletive>, but that there's some truth she does not want to admit. Every possibility generates an excuse. My experience (not just sexually, but in general) is that people with tons of excuses are hiding a different truth.

Uhtred, I don't recall too much about your situation, but have you ever just refused to accept these excuses for face value and dig through them to see what was really going on? Maybe she has or wants someone else? Maybe she's just too lazy and/or selfish to fix whatever issues she's having, or just doesn't care enough about your experience?

My experience is pretty close to yours, except that my ex managed intercourse once per month. Besides that, she had a litany of (untrue) excuses: too tired, her back hurt, she has TMJ, and so on but nothing ever improved. Were I in that situation again, I would simply state "yes I hear you, but it never improves and you never do anything about it. Unless I see some change, I am going to assume you don't want to change and act accordingly."

If you had such a discussion with your wife, what do you think you'd find out? Painful as it may be you may have to accept there is something about the way she feels about you (or sex in general), and not an inability to perform, that has gotten you to this point.



NobodySpecial said:


> I really, really hesitate to say this. But have you considered that she is just plain being a selfish <insert not very nice expletive here>? Every excuse in the book not to bother trying to do anything genuinely with or for you, but yah, you can do me! Game on! Or that her head is bent around sex? One does not have to be a victim of brutal (or even non-brutal) assault to have whacky notions around sex. MANY of us were raised that sex is this horrible, awful thing you only have to do with your husband, and after the childbearing years not much after.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

DTO said:


> Cletus (and anyone else who cares to answer),
> 
> When you say your wife is resigned to the current arrangement, what exactly is her regret about it? Is she upset that her sexual ability is pretty far below the average and isn't enough to make you content?


More accurately, just regretful that we have to be so far apart. Deep down in her heart, she doesn't see herself as unusual, and I don't think she really sees me that way either, in part thanks to having son who opened her eyes to the truth about men :wink2:. That's an interesting topic for another day. The regret is for the mismatch and the friction it has caused, not for her sexuality. 



> Or, is her regret that you have to have some sort of regular sex to stick around, as in "I'd rather not do anything at all, but Cletus won't put up with that, so I have to do what I have to do".


No, I've been very careful to point out that my wife is not asexual, that she will initiate when she desires it, and that she enjoys sex. Just on her terms. But that is true of us all, is it not? It's just her terms are a couple of sigma left of the mean.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

MEM2020 said:


> Tech,
> 
> I think this is how it starts. Meaning the LD does meet the HD in the middle. And then it seems that what often transpires is this.
> 
> ...


Nice theoretical take. Unfortunately The LD could be on a date with a Dream Male and it ain't gonna change one bit of the experience. She's not going back for seconds. She knows that if she sounds too receptive the tower of cards will collapse.

LD is mostly about control, and not about "bad technique" or "poor initiation" or any of those.


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## WildMustang (Nov 7, 2017)

Buddy400 said:


> Genuinely curious. You're heart seems to be in the right place.
> 
> But.... how can a man be strong and dominant if he has weaknesses or areas where he feels that he isn't dominant?
> 
> I guess there are other feelings that might be okay ("I just chopped off a finger and it sorta stings"), but surely saying things like "I just don't know what to do" or "I just don't think I'm capable of doing it" or "I just can't decide what's best" must be a problem, right?


My heart is in the right place. Thank you for seeing that.

This is my opinion only, just speaking for myself here.

To use your examples, if my man "doesn't know what to do" or "thinks he isn't capable of doing something" or "just can't decide what is best", I want him to know, with me, he can feel safe in being real, being transparent, and stating those things if that is how he truly feels or what he really thinks. I will not lose attraction for him and I will not feel unsafe or less secure as his woman hearing it.

To me, it takes incredible strength for a man to admit to these things. It makes him stronger (not weaker) to admit these things (if he indeed thinks or feels them) than for him to hide it and pretend otherwise.

Men have had to pretend otherwise to avoid criticism and mockery (that he knows what to do when he really doesn't, that he is capable of doing something when he really isn't, that he knows what's best when he really can't decide). I get that.

I want a man as a partner who can genuinely be real about what he is thinking and feeling over one who thinks or feels he has to pretend, any day of the week (although I do understand and have empathy for why men may feel they have to pretend)

It not only shows greater strength to be fully transparent and real, admitting to human vulnerability, but by putting his true thoughts and feelings out there rather than hiding behind them with a facade of "I got this", he is better able to come up with solutions in a more efficient, productive and I could easily argue, dominant, manner, without the needless added stress of having to pretend.

Just because someone has a thought, it doesn't make that thought true. We as humans have all kinds of crazy thoughts running through our heads at any given time and we have to filter them and sort through them.

So while at any particular time he may "think" he doesn't know what's best in that moment, after admitting to that (a big relief of its own), then thinking about it more, and getting more input from different sources, including me, if needed, he may discover that he actually does know what's best --without the added stress of having to pretend he knew it all along, of worrying "Oh God, I can't let her know that I don't know what's best...what will she think...will she not want to give me head tonight?...will she lose respect for me...will she replace me with Joe down the road..." 

And he will most likely resolve the issue faster without the time wasted on pretending to know when he didn't.

If after working to resolve it, he discovers he really doesn't have an answer, that's okay, too. 

Either way, he doesn't have the mental and physical health issues of having to repress emotion. He is healthier for himself, for me, his family, his friends, his work, his hobbies, etc.

To summarize, admitting to areas he doesn't feel strong or dominant, makes him strong, not weak, in my opinion.

And if he wants to improve in those areas, he can do it more effectively and efficiently coming from a place of truth.

Doing so makes him more strong and more dominant, in my opinion.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Cletus said:


> No one is required to lie. You may be required to mutually share in the discomfort of the truth of the matter. Happiness is not an all-or-nothing binary concept. It can still be managed overall with bumps in the road along the way. Mutual life goals, child rearing, compatible views on money, hobbies, and work do not suddenly become null and void because of a disconnect in the bedroom.


Yes, I agree. No one HAS to lie.
But many of us know that once we put all the cards on the table, we are not sure either let alone both of us want to stay together. In some (but surely not all) of the cases, the marriage requires ignoring the elephant in the room or in Rick Blaine's immortal construct one spouse pretending and the other spouse allowing them to pretend.
I understand many would prefer to live with the truth and manage it and find contentment if not happiness in the shared truth. And I understand many feel it is morally wrong and manipulative and selfish to lie about one's feelings in order to motivate one's spouse to stay married. I do not argue it isn't. I agree it is.
But some of us prefer to live with the truth of being selfish and manipulative rather than taking the risk that our spouse would leave if we moved the truth out into the open. Some of us would rather live with the discomfort or lying or being lied to that the discomfort of the truth being openly acknowledged.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

DTO said:


> My point is that attitude matters. I can accept an unspectacular effort from someone who is trying their very best to provide. I won't tolerate someone with a low or erratic drive who resents me for having an average drive and/or expects that I be okay with whatever she feels like providing (that would be my XW and a past GF).


This requires a little more exploration I think.

The "specatularness" of the effort is itself a point of contention with sexual styles so far apart. What feels like a huge effort on one person's part seems like a triviality to the other. This topic has come up many times in our marriage - "Every time I try to do something for you, it's never enough anyway, so why bother?"

There is some truth to that. I admit I was not very good at recognizing this in the past. It's hard to wrap your head around the difficulty someone else overcomes to give something that you could do in your sleep. 

So this is my part of the bargain, and part of the acceptance mantra - to recognize, reward, and praise any change from the norm for the hard work that it is. For my wife, that means don't make a big deal of it in the moment, but sure as hell don't not notice and forget to mention it in the afterglow. Accept that your partner is trying when they are trying, which is usually long before and well short of what you really want in a perfect world. Appreciate the baby steps. 

Some concrete examples of how this has worked for me - 

Sex used to be lights-out under the covers. That's no longer necessary or even desired. Small amounts of touching those naughty bits is allowed during foreplay as long as it doesn't get overdone. A couple of new positions have been added. These changes represent real effort in the world of Pure Unadulterated Vanilla, they took years to accomplish, and they still of course fall well short of what I would describe as an exciting sex life. Still, they show willingness to change. That matters more than the finish line.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

As I posted earlier, I do think its quite possible that she isn't selfish at all - its just difficult to choose between possibilities.

Drilling down on questions (which I've only done a couple of times) gets her really upset but doesn't get answers. Unfortunately that is consistent with manipulative selfishness, or with her having real deep hangups about sex. 

Minor questions always get answered "tactically" rather than "strategically". Each individual time she doesn't want sex for some valid reason. (there is *always* some reason someone might not want sex at any particular time). 

Complicating things is that in every conversation she makes specific plans to improve. Then specific things get in the way and its back to normal. 

Lately she has been making what is for her a huge effort. I really do appreciate her trying, but its still so limited relative to what I would like. 






DTO said:


> This was my thought too; maybe not that she's a selfish <expletive>, but that there's some truth she does not want to admit. Every possibility generates an excuse. My experience (not just sexually, but in general) is that people with tons of excuses are hiding a different truth.
> 
> Uhtred, I don't recall too much about your situation, but have you ever just refused to accept these excuses for face value and dig through them to see what was really going on? Maybe she has or wants someone else? Maybe she's just too lazy and/or selfish to fix whatever issues she's having, or just doesn't care enough about your experience?
> 
> ...


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

john117 said:


> Nice theoretical take. Unfortunately The LD could be on a date with a Dream Male and it ain't gonna change one bit of the experience. She's not going back for seconds. She knows that if she sounds too receptive the tower of cards will collapse.
> 
> LD is mostly about control, and not about "bad technique" or "poor initiation" or any of those.


I disagree, and tend to agree with @MEM2020. Plenty of mismatches are not based on the LD being objectively and consistently LD with all partners. Instead, they are situationally LD with their current partner. And I agree with Mem often the problem is that a male HD cannot tolerate the thought that his partner's LD is caused by him and is not her "fault". Because the hit to his self-esteem is too great if he admits she isn't turned on by him but would be turned on by some other guy.

My wife had more sex with other guys than she had with me. It would be foolish and unproductive for me to believe I had nothing to do with that. Or that there is nothing about me she wishes were different.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I think both situations exist. How common they are isn't really that important since what matters is the individual's situation. 

Also if the LD doesn't feel sexual attraction to their partner, does the reason really matter if there is nothing that partner can do to change it?




Holdingontoit said:


> I disagree, and tend to agree with @MEM2020. Plenty of mismatches are not based on the LD being objectively and consistently LD with all partners. Instead, they are situationally LD with their current partner. And I agree with Mem often the problem is that a male HD cannot tolerate the thought that his partner's LD is caused by him and is not her "fault". Because the hit to his self-esteem is too great if he admits she isn't turned on by him but would be turned on by some other guy.
> 
> My wife had more sex with other guys than she had with me. It would be foolish and unproductive for me to believe I had nothing to do with that. Or that there is nothing about me she wishes were different.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Holdingontoit said:


> I disagree, and tend to agree with @MEM2020. Plenty of mismatches are not based on the LD being objectively and consistently LD with all partners. Instead, they are situationally LD with their current partner. And I agree with Mem often the problem is that a male HD cannot tolerate the thought that his partner's LD is caused by him and is not her "fault". Because the hit to his self-esteem is too great if he admits she isn't turned on by him but would be turned on by some other guy.



I agree.

There are countless cases of a supposedly LD/asexual/too tired/too busy/too sick etc spouse having wild, monkey sex with another person.

I'm not saying that Cletus' wife specifically is or is not having an affair. 

I am saying people react and respond differently in bed with different people. 

One man's/woman's trash is another one's treasure.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

Sorry, don't buy the 'usually the guy is a lousy lover line'. 

A significant portion of women change a lot through the stages of life. Single is different than married is different than pregnant is different than after pregnancy, they just change and it is gigantic. Argue about it early and often, by all means listen if she has anything useful to offer about technique and take it to heart.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

Cletus - 

I feel like I'm donning a helmet and ducking in the trenches lest I get hit by the crossfire of the HD/LD debate, but I just wanted to tell you that I think your outlook is so admirable. You have achieved what I came to TAM to seek... a path to peace and acceptance, to appreciation of our spouse as the unique individual that they are and how they enhance our lives rather than detract from it. 

I read so much more here than I post, sometimes sad that the advice to divorce is so casually tossed around, but always soaking it all in and trying to find those gems that offer greater understanding and a new point of view that I hadn't considered. 

I thought it was really interesting that you mentioned that you feel your wife's opinions of men changed when you had a son. I can relate to that myself. Raising a boy myself has provided a type of insight into the male mindset that I never understood before. Having children in general has definitely changed my perceptions of nature vs. nuture. Before I had children of my own, I would have argued vehemently that we are all born as blank slates and that we can become anything we want if we just "try harder". Now I believe differently. Applied to my marriage, it made me soften my previously harsh views about my own shortcomings (at least a little bit) and also the perceived shortcomings of my husband. 

I would love to see more discussion from those who have found the "zen" in their marriage, how they got there and how they keep themselves there. 

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Holdingontoit said:


> I disagree, and tend to agree with @MEM2020. Plenty of mismatches are not based on the LD being objectively and consistently LD with all partners. Instead, they are situationally LD with their current partner. And I agree with Mem often the problem is that a male HD cannot tolerate the thought that his partner's LD is caused by him and is not her "fault". Because the hit to his self-esteem is too great if he admits she isn't turned on by him but would be turned on by some other guy.
> 
> My wife had more sex with other guys than she had with me. It would be foolish and unproductive for me to believe I had nothing to do with that. Or that there is nothing about me she wishes were different.


Your wife was not married to the previous guys. Date fog and all that.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

That’s the one thing helps me immeasurably in and out of bed. I’m ego-lite. 

There are a few things I’m unusually good at in the real world. But most things I’m quite average at. So the idea of other people being better than me at one thing or the other doesn’t cause me any distress. 

I met a few of M2’s exes. One was a doctor looked like Don Draper from Mad Men - Jon Ham. One could of been a male model for solo flex. 

The idea that M2 might have a stronger physical reaction to other men - never troubled me at all. She has a great response to being in my presence - she’s relaxed and at ease. Which allows her to be spontaneous and unfiltered. Mostly that produces a steady stream of laughter. And that is likely our primary sexual driver for her. Laughter. 

And just as there are love busters, there are sex busters in any LTR. Turn offs. I know what they are and generally avoid them. 

But if you talk pure sexual compatibility - she’s close to perfect for me. And I’m not quite right for her solely because I’m not near as aggressive as is her ideal. I can simulate it, and sometimes do so. But it isn’t my default. 





Holdingontoit said:


> I disagree, and tend to agree with @MEM2020. Plenty of mismatches are not based on the LD being objectively and consistently LD with all partners. Instead, they are situationally LD with their current partner. And I agree with Mem often the problem is that a male HD cannot tolerate the thought that his partner's LD is caused by him and is not her "fault". Because the hit to his self-esteem is too great if he admits she isn't turned on by him but would be turned on by some other guy.
> 
> My wife had more sex with other guys than she had with me. It would be foolish and unproductive for me to believe I had nothing to do with that. Or that there is nothing about me she wishes were different.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

John,
I agree that a sex life for the first 2-3 years (the limerence phase) is generally the apex. 

It’s WAY harder to sustain long term attraction mainly because desire is driven by novelty and people like me LIKE STABILITY and routine. 

Of the lads who post here - there is one who has an intensely sexual marriage. And I’m near certain M2 would have easily twice as much sex with him than me. He’s more aggressive AND more adventurous than me. Into my late forties I had half that package - in that I was more aggressive. 

But yes - for most women I absolutely believe their sexual response is highly partner driven. 



john117 said:


> Your wife was not married to the previous guys. Date fog and all that.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

For MOST women... 

The basketcases we discuss here are hardly in the MOST women category.

It's what I said earlier, my friend. Y'all are thinking that the wives that go without sex for months or years, risking their marriage and all that are from the MOST women sample. 

Sampling methodology is your friend.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I know John, it’s all her fault. 




john117 said:


> For MOST women...
> 
> The basketcases we discuss here are hardly in the MOST women category.
> 
> ...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

MEM2020 said:


> I know John, it’s all her fault.


In some cases, it is.

Unfortunately that's the part that many NormalPeople don't fathom.

Their partners fault, for the most part, is being at the wrong place at the wrong time.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Holdingontoit said:


> I disagree, and tend to agree with @MEM2020. Plenty of mismatches are not based on the LD being objectively and consistently LD with all partners. Instead, they are situationally LD with their current partner. And I agree with Mem often the problem is that a male HD cannot tolerate the thought that his partner's LD is caused by him and is not her "fault". Because the hit to his self-esteem is too great if he admits she isn't turned on by him but would be turned on by some other guy.
> 
> My wife had more sex with other guys than she had with me. It would be foolish and unproductive for me to believe I had nothing to do with that. Or that there is nothing about me she wishes were different.


I think there are so many factors that go into this, so completely agreed that not all mismatches are based on the LD always being LD with everyone. Sure, someone could be the same level of LD from the start with everyone they have been with. Others it could very well be situational. Maybe they were LD, but the newness of a relationship was enough to cancel that out. As the relationship matured, the newness wears off enough that it no longer offsets the LD. Maybe they just don't find their partner as attractive as they once did. Maybe previous partners ticked off more of the attractive requirements then the current SO. Maybe as they have gotten older a hormonal shift comes into play. Maybe someone is more situational or responsive desire driven. I would say that my W is LD at home b/c of the responsibilities of family life, but HD when those responsibilities are not present (i.e. on vacation without the kids)

So many factors, which is why I think some of the advice on a general basis is good, but you still need to look at each situation individually.


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## SentHereForAReason (Oct 25, 2017)

Cletus said:


> Anyone want to discuss this?
> 
> Many come to this site looking to fix an unsatisfying sex life. Sometimes the problems stem not from having a sexless marriage or an LD spouse, but from simply having an irreconcilable difference of opinion on what a satisfying sex life should contain. Your spouse desires intimacy with you, but under terms that you find hard to agree to.
> 
> ...


Before the 6 years, was the sex life much better? And I don't mean the dating part where everyone is getting what they need often. I struggled with this for many years. I even believed in what she said when she said that she wished sex didn't have to be so important or she could go years without it. She was very active before we met and we were very active during dating (of course) and the first few years of marriage and then after our first child that died down. I know now, after 14 years of marriage, an affair with the same man twice and the pending divorce that she never lost the desire, she just lost the desire with me and I failed to realize that before it was too late. I just gave up instead of trying to figure what was wrong. I just thought she didn't want it anymore and gave in to that and it wasn't worth my marriage to take another course, I made that decision after 2 years of struggling with it. I could never do that to my kids over something that we still did, just very rarely.

I'm not saying you aren't trying or haven't been trying to figure it out but there might be something more to this. For me, if I simply would have just tried more, not gotten upset when rejected and worked on become more attractive (not physically but husbandly) it probably would have made a big difference in the sex life. Not saying it would have prevented the affair because I think that was a different conscious choice but again, the desire was there, I just didn't go deep enough mentally and spend the time to study what I could have done to unlock it again. That's my own case anyway.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

john117 said:


> For MOST women...
> 
> The basketcases we discuss here are hardly in the MOST women category.
> 
> ...


Or that MOST husbands/Wives stay in this situation for years and years.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

stillfightingforus said:


> Before the 6 years, was the sex life much better? And I don't mean the dating part where everyone is getting what they need often. I struggled with this for many years. I even believed in what she said when she said that she wished sex didn't have to be so important or she could go years without it. She was very active before we met and we were very active during dating (of course) and the first few years of marriage and then after our first child that died down. I know now, after 14 years of marriage, an affair with the same man twice and the pending divorce that she never lost the desire, she just lost the desire with me and I failed to realize that before it was too late. I just gave up instead of trying to figure what was wrong. I just thought she didn't want it anymore and gave in to that and it wasn't worth my marriage to take another course, I made that decision after 2 years of struggling with it. I could never do that to my kids over something that we still did, just very rarely.
> 
> I'm not saying you aren't trying or haven't been trying to figure it out but there might be something more to this. For me, if I simply would have just tried more, not gotten upset when rejected and worked on become more attractive (not physically but husbandly) it probably would have made a big difference in the sex life. Not saying it would have prevented the affair because I think that was a different conscious choice but again, the desire was there, I just didn't go deep enough mentally and spend the time to study what I could have done to unlock it again. That's my own case anyway.


This may be true, but in reading your posts it's clear your wife has serious issues. 

That is the thing with this and kind of picking up on @john117 post it's not always LD, it can be past abuse, ongoing resentment from past events, dysfunction from a messed up childhood. It's not safe to assume that the person just isn't into sex. Though yes some just arn't. I don't think the advice should be, well they are just not into sex at least not without offering the other possibilities. The other can be fixed sometimes. Even if offering the other has people calling you ignorant for even suggesting it.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

sokillme said:


> Or that MOST husbands/Wives stay in this situation for years and years.


It's something that happens slowly, almost deliberately...


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

stillfightingforus said:


> Before the 6 years, was the sex life much better? And I don't mean the dating part where everyone is getting what they need often.


Not in my case. I married a near-virgin with almost no sexual experience. She required me to prove my worthiness by accepting a sexless courtship. We slept together in the same bed without sex several times before marriage, though I think she got a better night's sleep than did I. 

On our honeymoon, she said one night "I guess we should learn now to do this right". I took this as a positive. I should have seen it for the negative that it was.

I don't have advice for those who have lost a once good sex life. I have never had that experience.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

kag123 said:


> Cletus -
> 
> I feel like I'm donning a helmet and ducking in the trenches lest I get hit by the crossfire of the HD/LD debate, but I just wanted to tell you that I think your outlook is so admirable. You have achieved what I came to TAM to seek... a path to peace and acceptance, to appreciation of our spouse as the unique individual that they are and how they enhance our lives rather than detract from it.


I have had 32 years to work on it. It hasn't come cheap, it hasn't come easy, and it hasn't come without some big mistakes. I don't necessarily recommend it to anyone. If you're of the opinion that marriage should always come easy, that work of this magnitude implies that you've sort of already failed, then this will not work for you. 



> I read so much more here than I post, sometimes sad that the advice to divorce is so casually tossed around, but always soaking it all in and trying to find those gems that offer greater understanding and a new point of view that I hadn't considered.


I don't think marriage should be lightly entered nor lightly abandoned.

We were married in the Catholic Church. Before they would give us their blessing, we had to attend marriage classes with a mentor couple to discuss personality styles, finances, family rearing, and a bunch of other enlightening topics. But they left out the sex. Nevertheless, when you find someone who can take living with for decades in all of the other areas, I think it's worth a little work to manage the hard parts. 



> I thought it was really interesting that you mentioned that you feel your wife's opinions of men changed when you had a son. I can relate to that myself. Raising a boy myself has provided a type of insight into the male mindset that I never understood before. Having children in general has definitely changed my perceptions of nature vs. nuture. Before I had children of my own, I would have argued vehemently that we are all born as blank slates and that we can become anything we want if we just "try harder". Now I believe differently. Applied to my marriage, it made me soften my previously harsh views about my own shortcomings (at least a little bit) and also the perceived shortcomings of my husband.


Yes, we have one of each. I'm sorry, but those stereotypes are real for good reason.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Cletus said:


> Not in my case. I married a near-virgin with almost no sexual experience. She required me to prove my worthiness by accepting a sexless courtship. We slept together in the same bed without sex several times before marriage, though I think she got a better night's sleep than did I.
> 
> On our honeymoon, she said one night "I guess we should learn now to do this right". I took this as a positive. I should have seen it for the negative that it was.
> 
> I don't have advice for those who have lost a once good sex life. I have never had that experience.


Ouch. That sucks, major.

Did she at least give off signs that she was interested in you sexually, as in she had to struggle a bit to stay pure?

Also, have you explored the option of therapy for her to see about any hangups or trauma she may have? A couple of things I have learned in dealing with my ex and other people who found religion. The first is that churches seem to do a bad job at addressing this issue. Churches will readily recite the command to stay pure until marriage, but few make it clear that you have a responsibility to your spouse for their sexual fulfillment (applies to both men and women). My pastor bucked the trend and did exactly this, and you could hear a pin drop in the church - lots of unhappy women in there.

The second thing I learned is that church-goers can be very sex-negative. I've known people to say "that's what gay people do" regarding oral sex, and that a lady "has to be a ****" to keep a man. Unfortunately, being Catholic, with the added rules against anything but intercourse, doesn't help issues. I can easily see where sexual shame would take hold in such an environment.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Cletus said:


> Not in my case. I married a near-virgin with almost no sexual experience. She required me to prove my worthiness by accepting a sexless courtship. We slept together in the same bed without sex several times before marriage, though I think she got a better night's sleep than did I.
> 
> On our honeymoon, she said one night "I guess we should learn now to do this right". I took this as a positive. I should have seen it for the negative that it was.
> 
> I don't have advice for those who have lost a once good sex life. I have never had that experience.


I am not saying this to get down on Cletus or to criticize him in any way. 

This is a lesson for everyone and something to consider as you interact and guide young people through the minefield of human sexuality and relationships. 

What took place here is Cletus did in fact prove himself 'worthy.' He proved that he could be stripped of his sexuality and his virility and he would lay there in bed and do what he was told. He was in fact worthy of marrying and placating to a sexually nonresponsive wife. 

It was established early on during the dating phase of the relationship that this was not going to be a very sexual relationship and it was established in the honeymoon phase that she was not sexually responsive to him and that he would have to live with it. 

Somewhere along the line Cletus and countless others before him and after him, believed that a marriage certificate and ring would transform a sexless person into a sexual one. 

....... it doesn't. 

People have a lot of covert contracts and erroneous assumptions that do not come to fruition. He has learned this the hard way after 30+ years. 

Now I do realize that there are both men and women that have religious beliefs against sexual activity prior to marriage. 

But it's kind of imperative that those people be taught the signs and symptoms of adhering to a belief and a religious practice, vs simply not feeling an attraction and desire. 

The good night's sleep vs the bad night's sleep was Cletus' sign that his missed (don't feel bad Bro, it's easy for me to point this out 30 years later at the age of 53 to someone else. It's a whole other story when it is you that is young and dumb and in love) 

People need to be taught the difference between someone struggling with their passions and desires and struggling to adhere to their beliefs vs using a religious teaching as an excuse to get a good night's sleep by not doing what they don't want to do in the first place. 

I personally do not believe in the no-sex-before-marriage doctrine. 

But what I preach is the "No-Marriage-Before-Sexual-Expression" doctrine. 

If someone is in a western culture and are marrying for love, It's imperative that they establish some kind of sexual expression and sexual attraction and desire between them before making a lifetime commitment. If their beliefs preclude sexual intercourse, then they need to at least explore other avenues of sexual expression and compatibility. 

Someone who makes their partner prove their worth by simply sucking it up and keeping their hands off while they themselves get a good night's sleep, is not someone who is going to be sexually viable with a marriage license and a ring on their finger. 

We as a culture and society need to start standing up and pointing that out so that following generations are not falling for this ruse also.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> What took place here is Cletus did in fact prove himself 'worthy.' He proved that he could be stripped of his sexuality and his virility and he would lay there in bed and do what he was told. He was in fact worthy of marrying and placating to a sexually nonresponsive wife.
> 
> .


In other words, he proved himself worthy of being a dutiful, faithful husband in a sexless marriage.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Cletus has found a place of peace in his marriage that I did not find. Good for him! And my choice was good for me - I am happy and at peace in this marriage. There is room for different responses and priorities, and so many personal factors to consider in every unique situation.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

Warning, if you think good sex before marriage proves anything I have bridge in Brooklyn. 

Glad it worked out for you, consider yourself lucky rather than all knowing and wise.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

True, but bad or minimal sex before marriage can be a good indication or problems in the future. 




anonmd said:


> Warning, if you think good sex before marriage proves anything I have bridge in Brooklyn.
> 
> Glad it worked out for you, consider yourself lucky rather than all knowing and wise.


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## torol (Jan 14, 2018)

I find it completely crazy that still in 2018 everyone thinks that refusing sex or some sex acts that are normal and a healthy variety of sex acts, is simply a matter of lack of empathy for the man, and that women are egoist for not giving it. Nobody seems to understand that there can be another explanation: the complete lack of desire for sex or for a type of sex acts, or the repulsion for them. You cannot make out of empathy a sexual act that you completely dont have desire for because that will often come with repulsion. If your empathy makes you do things that repulse you, you will put your own mental health at risk. It's often not a matter of empathy, but of the simple capacity to enjoy something. Maybe some of these women are very sad of not being able to enjoy what their husbands enjoys, some may have very well hoped to have a different sex life but cant. 


I'm just completely flabbergasted that NO ONE on this thread has pointed out that a person with lower sex drive oftentimes is not acting at all out of egoism but out of incapacity. It's as if men forget the importance that women enjoy what they do sexually and consider empathy should guarantee desire. I understand if some of you would not accept to be with someone who cant enjoy what they enjoy, but the empathy you yourself show to that person is in many cases near zero.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

anonmd said:


> Warning, if you think good sex before marriage proves anything I have bridge in Brooklyn.
> 
> Glad it worked out for you, consider yourself lucky rather than all knowing and wise.


Of course there are no guarantees that the sex will be good forever and ever after marriage. 

But dating is basically an interview and probationary period where people spend time together and do things together to see if they are a good match or not and if each party wants to continue and make a home and family together. 

Sexual compatibility is every bit as important of a criteria as anything else. 

While it's true that someone can fake it or do a bait and switch, that does not negate the importance of evaluating the sexual compatibility and degree of attraction and sexual response and expression before making such a big commitment. 

When someone is telling you, 'no touchy touchy' before marriage and they are perfectly comfortable with that and they are not struggling with that or falling down at times with that, while at the same time you are tossing and turning and dying inside trying to hold yourself back - that is a sign of things to come. (or not cum as the case may be) 

In Cletus' instance, it was established by her in the beginning that this was not going to be a sexual relationship and she evaluated his abilitiy and his compliance and evaluated his tolerance to not having a sexual relationship (ie, determined his 'worthiness") 

He passed. He not only passed but he aced the test and went on to have 30 years of a very sexually lackluster and sexually unsatisfying marriage. 

She did a good job of interviewing and giving a tryout to her marital candidate and picked the right person for the job (in this case the job was a spouse who would tolerate and adapt to a sexless marriage)

Him not so much. While he was talking cold showers and rubbing one out to keep himself from getting too horny with her in order to prove himself worthy, he failed to interview and evaluate the probationary period for his own criteria for a suitable marriage partner. 

(and again, I'm not getting down on or judging Cletus. Countless men and women fell for the same thing. 30 years ago we were all being raised that waiting until marriage was proper and many of us were raised to not be horndogs and not pressure women for sex. In so doing, we were also not taught the difference between a virtuous woman who had desires but was adhering to her beliefs vs a woman who simply wasn't attracted to us)


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Yes, sadly too many of us were taught this, just as too many women were taught that "good girls didn't have sex", rather than "only have sex with someone you love". 



oldshirt said:


> snip
> 
> (and again, I'm not getting down on or judging Cletus. Countless men and women fell for the same thing. 30 years ago we were all being raised that waiting until marriage was proper and many of us were raised to not be horndogs and not pressure women for sex. In so doing, we were also not taught the difference between a virtuous woman who had desires but was adhering to her beliefs vs a woman who simply wasn't attracted to us)


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

uhtred said:


> Yes, sadly too many of us were taught this, just as too many women were taught that "good girls didn't have sex", rather than "only have sex with someone you love".


Yes, it's taken many years of deprogramming to get past this. 

It took years of deprogramming for me to accept that my sexuality as a man was not sick and perverted and predatory and disrespectful to women. 

And it took years of deprogramming for my wife to accept that women were horny and did have sexual yearnings and desires and that it did not make her a bad woman/wife/mother.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

anonmd said:


> Warning, if you think good sex before marriage proves anything I have bridge in Brooklyn.
> 
> Glad it worked out for you, consider yourself lucky rather than all knowing and wise.


True there are no guarantees, but if you had good sex before marriage then at least it's possible to have good sex after marriage.

But if you have only bad sex before marriage, you're married sex life is virtually guaranteed to suck.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

Sure, that is called an ex-girlfriend!


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

oldshirt said:


> In other words, he proved himself worthy of being a dutiful, faithful husband in a sexless marriage.


Cletus is not in a sexless marriage. I need to keep repeating this because my situation keeps getting conflated with that.

I have a wife with a normal sex drive. She is easily orgasmic through PIV and was multi-orgasmic when younger. She initiates sex once or twice a week. 

The thing that I have had to accept is her plain vanilla sexual style and discomfort with a lot of things that many consider mainstream sexuality. But our marriage is not sexless.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

DTO said:


> Ouch. That sucks, major.
> 
> Did she at least give off signs that she was interested in you sexually, as in she had to struggle a bit to stay pure?


Enough that I didn't pick up on the problem. I remember a night when we were making out heavily that turned into a grind session on the couch. She orgasmed while we were both fully clothed and didn't seem disturbed by it. It seemed to be then (and was, I need to reiterate) a case of feeling like other boyfriends had been interested in her for "one thing only". That a man who truly wanted her for a spouse would be willing to wait until his wedding night. 



> Also, have you explored the option of therapy for her to see about any hangups or trauma she may have?


There's no trauma or abuse to which she is willing to admit. I have asked the question directly, and she has answered it to my satisfaction. I think with here it's more of a disgust reaction. Take oral sex - she makes a face that will have you believe that the idea of putting her mouth on a c**k (or vice versa) is akin to licking a slug. It's not just un-fun, it's disgusting. What do you do with that? 

As for needing therapy - that's a statement that comes along with the baggage that "you are broken but maybe we can fix you". She doesn't think she's broken. I don't think she's broken. We are simply different. 



> A couple of things I have learned in dealing with my ex and other people who found religion.


There's no religious connection any more, even if that might have been the first reason. She's pretty much followed me into atheism over the years.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Cletus said:


> As for needing therapy - that's a statement that comes along with the baggage that "you are broken but maybe we can fix you". She doesn't think she's broken. I don't think she's broken. We are simply different.


I did not mean to imply she's "broken" somehow. I'm just noting that religion gives people some pretty weird ideas on sex. Some ideas and attitudes she has (oral sex is wrong, for instance) are learned and not innate (like the way a fear of heights or water would be), and that oral sex issue is one specifically promoted by the Catholic Church. Other attitudes you hear going around are that being able to be happy in a marriage without sex is a virtue and that people who can do without it happily are more mature and evolved.

My suggestion was aimed at exploring that maybe your wife was suffering from bad teachings like these.



Cletus said:


> There's no religious connection any more, even if that might have been the first reason. She's pretty much followed me into atheism over the years.


Just because she doesn't go to church any more doesn't mean she still doesn't live under that indoctrination.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Cletus said:


> Take oral sex - she makes a face that will have you believe that the idea of putting her mouth on a c**k (or vice versa) is akin to licking a slug. It's not just un-fun, it's disgusting. What do you do with that?



Get her into the back of the garden and start her chewing on those slugs  to start getting used to real life. 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

@Cletus
Have you tried candles?




So what’s your secret to contentment and happiness? How did you come to terms with a life without? Where did you put your resentment?

Do you find you are much less attracted to your wife now? If so, has she noticed do you think?


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Interesting data point that I don't understand.

My wife was like that until very recently. She though giving oral was disgusting and degrading and told me so. But - she wanted to do it for my birthday (only) and was unhappy when I told her not to because she had told me how disgusting it was.

But then she had a hand injury that prevented her from giving me HJs (previously our only sexual contact). Next think I know instead of HJs, she started giving me BJs. I did ask if she was OK with that (without pointing out her previous statement) and she said it was fine - not her favorite, thing but happy to do it for me.

This is after her knowing for decades that it was one of my favorite things but not being willing to do it. (and I asked only very rarely and very gently). 

:scratchhead::scratchhead::scratchhead::scratchhead::scratchhead::scratchhead:






Cletus said:


> snip
> There's no trauma or abuse to which she is willing to admit. I have asked the question directly, and she has answered it to my satisfaction. I think with here it's more of a disgust reaction. Take oral sex - she makes a face that will have you believe that the idea of putting her mouth on a c**k (or vice versa) is akin to licking a slug. It's not just un-fun, it's disgusting. What do you do with that?
> snip
> .


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

uhtred said:


> This is after her knowing for decades that it was one of my favorite things but not being willing to do it. (and I asked only very rarely and very gently).


That might be the first time I've ever heard a BJ story with that kind of surprise ending. 

Is she at all forthcoming on an explanation about how and why she overcame what seems like a pretty strong aversion? It sounds like the realization of having no alternative finally pushed her over the edge, so to speak. Has she developed more of a "taste" for it now that it's more frequent?


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

She is almost impossible to talk to about sex, and I never get clear answers.

The best (if unfortunate) model that I have is that she has an idea of what is "fair" with sex and long ago decided that a BJ once a year and a HJ every other week was "fair". Now that she can't do HJs, in order to be "fair" she is substituting BJs. That doing any more would be my taking advantage of her. 

Sadly this fits a lot of the data on her sexual behavior. 








Cletus said:


> That might be the first time I've ever heard a BJ story with that kind of surprise ending.
> 
> Is she at all forthcoming on an explanation about how and why she overcame what seems like a pretty strong aversion? It sounds like the realization of having no alternative finally pushed her over the edge, so to speak. Has she developed more of a "taste" for it now that it's more frequent?


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> @Cletus
> Have you tried candles?


Where? 



> So what’s your secret to contentment and happiness? How did you come to terms with a life without? Where did you put your resentment?


Resentment can only live in a place where you think your partner is in control of the alternatives; that she is making a willful decision to not be the sexual partner you desire, or at least a decision to not try harder. When you come to accept that this isn't true, how can you be mad? I might as well resent that the sky isn't green. 



> Do you find you are much less attracted to your wife now? If so, has she noticed do you think?


Yes, and yes. I know my triggers and I avoid them, so I don't get revved up so much any more. I actively push away thoughts of what I want that I cannot have. I rarely initiate, but she's a once a week kind of girl so a Saturday or Sunday afternoon usually finds us landing in bed somehow. 

Sex has lost some of its luster, but I don't really miss it. If I'm not thinking about it, fretting over the quality of it, or overly reflecting on what I don't get out of it, it becomes less important. Now I just try to have as much simple pleasure from the nuts and bolts of intimacy without any bells and whistles. 

She has noticed, and commented. But we don't talk about sex any more. That's a conversation that rarely leads to anything but tears. 

I don't want to make this sound bleak, because it isn't. It's just a different reality. At 54, it feels OK. Maybe not ideal, but OK. In fair trade, I get no drama. A supportive spouse and mother. A good financial and life partner. Someone to drag to the local wineries. I would have to trade down somewhere else to get hot monkey sex, and I find that I can get along just fine without it.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I sometimes wish the sex would stop completely so that I would stop hopeing and getting disappointed. OTOH I find that as it gets longer and longer I end up ever more resentful. I keep thinking that I will transition to not caring, but it doesn't seem to ever happen.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

uhtred said:


> I sometimes wish the sex would stop completely so that I would stop hopeing and getting disappointed. OTOH I find that as it gets longer and longer I end up ever more resentful. I keep thinking that I will transition to not caring, but it doesn't seem to ever happen.


I have gotten to the point where I am almost relieved that no sex is happening, no hoping, no disappointment, nada. In the past I would in fact get resentful, not so much now (acceptance I guess). I know it sounds horrible or as if I am miserable, but actually I am not.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Cletus said:


> Where?


In a chocolate cake of course!





> Resentment can only live in a place where you think your partner is in control of the alternatives; that she is making a willful decision to not be the sexual partner you desire, or at least a decision to not try harder. When you come to accept that this isn't true, how can you be mad? I might as well resent that the sky isn't green.



I admire your acceptance. Truly, I do. You have accepted that your wife, no matter what she does or how hard she tries or how much effort she puts forth, cannot ever be anything than who and what she is. You have accepted that who she is is not something she can control.

But they are in control and it is a willful decision on their part. You both have the ability to fly but the partner insists you content yourself with walking on all fours. They make the willful choice to remain in their closed off state, surrounded by their fluffy comfy walls and refuse to step foot elsewhere. 

I wish I didn’t have such a killer sweet tooth. It is beyond my control, honestly. I have read that in order to end the compelling compulsions of my sweet tooth, I have to give up ALL forms of sugar for a month. That means no sweetener of any sort in any food or drink. Not even fruit. I know a woman who did this and to this day she doesn’t crave sweets and rarely is ever tempted by them.

Ha, says I. That is waaaaaaaay waaaaay too much effort. Besides that, I like chocolate cake, and peanut butter fudge, and Christmas cookies and have no intention of giving that up.

This is not to be argumentative. I would genuinely appreciate hearing your opinion on how to reconcile accepting their default and knowing that the effort you place into accepting is the same effort they *could*place into meeting you in a place where you both feel content.




> Sex has lost some of its luster, but I don't really miss it. If I'm not thinking about it, fretting over the quality of it, or overly reflecting on what I don't get out of it, it becomes less important. Now I just try to have as much simple pleasure from the nuts and bolts of intimacy without any bells and whistles.



You rid yourself of your sweet tooth and no longer crave it, so long as you don’t allow yourself to consider how nicely chocolate cake goes with freshly brewed coffee.





> I don't want to make this sound bleak, because it isn't. It's just a different reality. At 54, it feels OK. Maybe not ideal, but OK. In fair trade, I get no drama. A supportive spouse and mother. A good financial and life partner. Someone to drag to the local wineries. I would have to trade down somewhere else to get hot monkey sex, and I find that I can get along just fine without it.



On this part I get it. At some point it’s just absurd to contemplate all the effort that would go into creating a new relationship with someone who could fly with you. You don’t hate your spouse and life is so much easier, particularly at this stage in life, when companionship is appreciated for what it is no matter how limited. 

I’ve got the last part down, now if I could just let go of the resentment and stop seeing my husband as the lazy selfish son of a ***** he really is.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> In a chocolate cake of course!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


AP:

I have found similar acceptance in my marriage at once to twice a month in frequency. 

What allows me to do it is a combination of doing less for her/more for me, and using that time to pursue something that is more fulfilling than sex with her.

Is resentment there? A tiny amount. But then I remember that the only person keeping me in this position is me...then I go get smashed on the mat some more.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

farsidejunky said:


> AP:
> 
> I have found similar acceptance in my marriage at once to twice a month in frequency.
> 
> ...



Hi Far!

I saw you post that earlier in the thread and it resonated with me. I’m kinda doing it, doing less for him and more for me. But really I’m just doing less for him which is more for me than against him...make sense? It’s difficult to avoid the appearance of passive aggressive avoidance in doing less for him. I don’t walk around angry or morose, I just don’t engage unless I want to. 

But if he spends too much time in my presence, the pressure starts to build like a volcano that could erupt at any time. 

My therapist suggested separate bedrooms. Maybe after the youngest leaves for college this summer....


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

farsidejunky said:


> AP:
> 
> I have found similar acceptance in my marriage at once to twice a month in frequency.
> 
> ...


Funny you mention the less/more thing. One of the things I used to do was stay up as late as possible (keep in mind I typically wake up b/w 3-4am) with the hopes we would get some alone time and have some fun before the night was over. Most nights though nothing would happen (which in part is what drove my frustration), so what I do now, when I get tired I just go to bed (I know, sounds so simple). I didn't mind making the sacrifice, I can easily manage with little sleep, but why should I be tired all day for no good reason? Now I am usually out cold before she gets settled into bed, I sleep a lot better, feel better the next day, and any resentment is a fraction of what it used to be. Of course this does not make me the role model of how to handle such a situation by any means lol.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> Hi Far!
> 
> I saw you post that earlier in the thread and it resonated with me. I’m kinda doing it, doing less for him and more for me. But really I’m just doing less for him which is more for me than against him...make sense? It’s difficult to avoid the appearance of passive aggressive avoidance in doing less for him. I don’t walk around angry or morose, I just don’t engage unless I want to.
> 
> ...


It totally makes sense, and I agree. As Mem likes to say, you're not doing it to him but rather for you.

Despite our vehement disagreements in P&R, I greatly miss your poignant posts in SIM. It's good to hear from you again.

Sorry for the thread jack, @Cletus.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> Funny you mention the less/more thing. One of the things I used to do was stay up as late as possible (keep in mind I typically wake up b/w 3-4am) with the hopes we would get some alone time and have some fun before the night was over. Most nights though nothing would happen (which in part is what drove my frustration), so what I do now, when I get tired I just go to bed (I know, sounds so simple). I didn't mind making the sacrifice, I can easily manage with little sleep, but why should I be tired all day for no good reason? Now I am usually out cold before she gets settled into bed, I sleep a lot better, feel better the next day, and any resentment is a fraction of what it used to be. Of course this does not make me the role model of how to handle such a situation by any means lol.


There's freedom in not being a slave to our desire. It's easy to build resentment when you're doing things you would otherwise not do when you're chasing that desire, then later paying the price when it was all for naught.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Separate bedrooms helps me a lot. I dread going on vacation where we always stay in the same bed - so I'm lying next to the woman that I love and desire, but can't touch.

In a separate room, its like living with my sister, and I can take care of myself whenever I need to. 

(yup, its no way to live). 



Anon Pink said:


> snip
> 
> My therapist suggested separate bedrooms. Maybe after the youngest leaves for college this summer....


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

uhtred said:


> Separate bedrooms helps me a lot. I dread going on vacation where we always stay in the same bed - so I'm lying next to the woman that I love and desire, but can't touch.
> 
> In a separate room, its like living with my sister, and I can take care of myself whenever I need to.
> 
> (yup, its no way to live).


Separate states works even better. 

Today I found out exactly how many days I can go without.....










Washing dishes until you've used all the dishes in the house.

Yea, it's hard having to cook. But, there's no point in rewarding unacceptable behavior.

Can't wait to sell the McMansion and move on.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> You say...
> 
> I admire your acceptance. Truly, I do. You have accepted that your wife, no matter what she does or how hard she tries or how much effort she puts forth, cannot ever be anything than who and what she is. You have accepted that who she is is not something she can control.
> 
> ...


So you don't accept my acceptance. Or at least the premise on which it is based.

What makes you say that everyone can fly? Maybe a jog is the best that some can manage. What if my sexual proclivities included Class IV S&M Bondage, scat play, and cuckholding? Would my spouse be considered such a knuckle-dragger for not being capable of winning the KinkOlympics? And if the answer is no, which I hope it is, then who gets to draw the line on when someone is being reasonable in their sexual line-in-the-sand versus any other?




> This is not to be argumentative. I would genuinely appreciate hearing your opinion on how to reconcile accepting their default and knowing that the effort you place into accepting is the same effort they *could*place into meeting you in a place where you both feel content.


Best answer I can give is "because I can". One of us has to bend, or we have to break. I am capable of bending, so I do. To answer the immediately obvious question, yes there are things over which I would break. Sexlessness is one of them. Vanilla sex apparently is not. Her bend-but-not-break points are different but no less important, I suspect, and probably exercised as frequently. 

As difficult as it might be for me to do the heavy lifting on sexual compromise, it's still less work than she would have to do to come up to my level. If the very thought of something makes you sick to your stomach, that's a higher hill to climb, IMHO. 



> You rid yourself of your sweet tooth and no longer crave it, so long as you don’t allow yourself to consider how nicely chocolate cake goes with freshly brewed coffee.


I had to mostly give up chocolate cake when my weight got out of control. 



> I’ve got the last part down, now if I could just let go of the resentment and stop seeing my husband as the lazy selfish son of a ***** he really is.


On the contrary, acceptance requires you to see your husband exactly as he is. You have to roll around in it, smear it over yourself from head to toe, drink it in and crap it back out until it's in your bones.

Acceptance of course doesn't mean comfort with or even that you decide to stay. It just means that you stop trying to fix it and that you understand that the loss is better than what would be required to change it, if that change is even possible. 

I could force the issue with my wife. I could make her do things that she is not comfortable with. How long do you figure she would respect me and want to continue to be my sexual partner? Oh, sure, there's the betting-on-the-inside-straight chance that she thanks me after the fact for opening her eyes. Shall I go to Vegas and try the odds?


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

farsidejunky said:


> There's freedom in not being a slave to our desire. It's easy to build resentment when you're doing things you would otherwise not do when you're chasing that desire, then later paying the price when it was all for naught.


Yes. This is a big driver of resentment. There is NOTHING more liberating than the realization "I well and truly don't give a **** about this any more", then doing whatever it is you DO give a **** about.


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## ChargingCharlie (Nov 14, 2012)

Cletus said:


> You marriage, your choice. Acceptance doesn't necessarily imply that you really like the outcome, only that you come to peace with it. If you cannot, then this advice is not for you. Personally, and I can never say this to my wife, I would have never married her if I could have seen into the future. But that's not the same as saying I want out 5 or 10 or 30 years down the road.


Totally agree with this - my wife has absolutely no sex drive, and while I don't like it, I'm not going to uproot everything with two little kids just because she doesn't like sex. She's gotten a lot better about other things (not as stressed out about dumb things, doesn't jump down my throat when the dishwasher isn't loaded to her liking, etc). Like you, if I could have seen into the future, I never would have married her. Back then, we were having sex on a regular basis, and she enjoyed it (or at least seemed to). Granted, we're now in our early 50's, but the sex stopped in our early to mid 40's. I know that she loves me, but sex is just not on her radar. 

Now this weekend, the kids are staying with friends as we have to attend a wedding, so we'll see what happens when we get home. She'll look good, and I'll be in the mood when we get home. However, I accept the fact that it's most likely that when we get in the car to head home, she'll make sure to let me know how tired she is and can't wait to get into her PJ's and go to sleep (this is with me not saying a word about sex when we get home). There's no kids at our house (going to get them tomorrow afternoon) so she can sleep in, but getting to bed will trump having sex. It's been two years since we last had sex, so what's another night. She may surprise me, but I seriously doubt it, and I've accepted it.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

It's all about control. As newly separated it is so obvious it's not even funny how blatantly obvious it is. 

If it isn't about control then you're dealing with a truly asexual or near zero drive individual which is strictly bail out material.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

If you're an HD guy and a porn user I really have no sympathy. I mean, you're getting your body's needs met just perhaps not as explosively and exciting as you wish. Boo hoo!

I'd like to hear from some real men that actually don't do the porn and masturbation thing. Although, maybe the Good God blesses men like that with women that don't turn away.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

CatholicDad said:


> If you're an HD guy and a porn user I really have no sympathy. I mean, you're getting your body's needs met just perhaps not as explosively and exciting as you wish. Boo hoo!
> 
> I'd like to hear from some real men that actually don't do the porn and masturbation thing. Although, maybe the Good God blesses men like that with women that don't turn away.


Yeah....I don't think so. I am pretty sure the good god couldn't care less which women to bless masturbatory versus non masturbatory men with.


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## Notself (Aug 25, 2017)

CatholicDad said:


> Although, maybe the Good God blesses men like that with women that don't turn away.


You religious people crack me up. God only does good things, according to you, so it's your own fault if, say, your wife suddenly stops wanting you. Must be because you don't love God enough. Nothing but a dose of God will fix things. Not enough God in your marriage!

Garbage.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

duplicate post.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

CatholicDad said:


> If you're an HD guy and a porn user I really have no sympathy. I mean, you're getting your body's needs met just perhaps not as explosively and exciting as you wish. Boo hoo!
> 
> I'd like to hear from some real men that actually don't do the porn and masturbation thing. Although, maybe the Good God blesses men like that with women that don't turn away.


What an utter load of crap. HD non-porn user here. LD wife turned away frequently for much of our marriage. That’s when she was healthy, which wasn’t often. She’s an amazing,rock solid woman of the highest moral character, and God “blessed” her with extreme susceptibility to UTIs, migraines, and hypothyroidism, among other things. And by extension, I got “blessed” with all those things as well. Yeah, God did ud a real solid there.

(just to be clear here, not looking for pity. It just is what it is. And I know equally solid citizens who have it far worse)


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

CatholicDad said:


> If you're an HD guy and a porn user I really have no sympathy. I mean, you're getting your body's needs met just perhaps not as explosively and exciting as you wish. Boo hoo!
> 
> I'd like to hear from some real men that actually don't do the porn and masturbation thing. Although, maybe the Good God blesses men like that with women that don't turn away.


I'm usually pretty even keeled, but your suggestion that guys who just endure without masturbating are real men (better than the rest of us) is ridiculous.

You can take your self-righteous attitude and wipe your rear end with it.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

CatholicDad,
You complain about being chronically angry at how little sex you have in your marriage. Makes me wonder if God hasnt blessed you with a wife who doesn’t turn away. 

You really ought to get some help. Going through life angry and increasingly resentful isn’t good for you or your family.

That said, you won’t make ANY progress until you jettison the massive wall you’ve built in an attempt to protect your ego. 

Putting others down may momentarily make you feel less bad, but it’s like putting a band aid on skin cancer. It hides the lesion, but does nothing to treat the disease. 

As for how a real man behaves - I can tell you that most women would quietly roll their eyes when presented with your approach which comes across as this: 

I’m living a righteous (no masturbation for me) life, so you are my only sexual outlet. And I feel bad, tense and angry when you don’t have enough sex with me. 

Sex becomes infrequent when the experience isn’t overall positive for the lower desire person. And when that person is afraid to provide honest feedback for fear of an ego protective backlash .... sex becomes even more fraught. 

While not a gambler by nature, I’d make a large wager that you enjoy telling your wife about how the world is full of losers who self pleasure. Which is clearly code for: look how righteous I am, and recognize how lucky you are to be married to me. 

I wonder how happy your wife is that you’ve traded one deadly sin (lust) for another - anger. 



CatholicDad said:


> If you're an HD guy and a porn user I really have no sympathy. I mean, you're getting your body's needs met just perhaps not as explosively and exciting as you wish. Boo hoo!
> 
> I'd like to hear from some real men that actually don't do the porn and masturbation thing. Although, maybe the Good God blesses men like that with women that don't turn away.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

If you haven't experienced it, its difficult to imagine being married to a person who you love, and who loves you, and for whom you will do anything - but who has no desire for, and will not have sex with you.






CatholicDad said:


> If you're an HD guy and a porn user I really have no sympathy. I mean, you're getting your body's needs met just perhaps not as explosively and exciting as you wish. Boo hoo!
> 
> I'd like to hear from some real men that actually don't do the porn and masturbation thing. Although, maybe the Good God blesses men like that with women that don't turn away.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

I can imagine a good wife being worn down by decades of harassment by an HD husband who is feeding his kinks via porn. Religious or not.

Not saying this is everyone's case here.

Further, it is also easy to imagine a good wife being hurt that her hubby wants to reenact the porn scene from his beat off session the previous night.

So reflect on that.

Maybe some of HD guys made the bed.... and now are lying in it!

I'm working on my anger. Hey, I feel better!


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

uhtred said:


> If you haven't experienced it, its difficult to imagine being married to a person who you love, and who loves you, and for whom you will do anything - but who has no desire for, and will not have sex with you.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sorry, man. I truly am. I don't mean to infer that porn is the only cause of this predicament.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

I guess I should add that I I don't understand your sufferings....

However, if you're a porn guy you likewise don't truly understand what it means to be frustrated (sexually). You're not even in the ballpark.


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## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

CatholicDad said:


> I guess I should add that I I don't understand your sufferings....
> 
> However, if you're a porn guy you likewise don't truly understand what it means to be frustrated (sexually). You're not even in the ballpark.


Ahh, Another, "any orgasm is a good orgasm person".
Lol.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Much easier to fixate on the imagined sins of others than to fix what’s broken about yourself. 

You seem more than happy to discuss/address other people’s porn habits and utterly unwilling to consider why your wife isn’t all that attracted to you. 





CatholicDad said:


> I can imagine a good wife being worn down by decades of harassment by an HD husband who is feeding his kinks via porn. Religious or not.
> 
> Not saying this is everyone's case here.
> 
> ...


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

CatholicDad said:


> I guess I should add that I I don't understand your sufferings....
> 
> However, if you're a porn guy you likewise don't truly understand what it means to be frustrated (sexually). You're not even in the ballpark.




Porn is no good substitute for good sex with your partner for most ‘porn users’. (There are exceptions). It can sometimes lessen the pain but it’s still no good.
I would prefer sex with wife any day of the week over porn.



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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

CatholicDad said:


> I can imagine a good wife being worn down by decades of harassment by an HD husband who is feeding his kinks via porn. Religious or not.
> 
> Not saying this is everyone's case here.
> 
> ...


Speaking clearly as a poster when I say this:

Most of the time, when one finds oneself in a hole, the best thing to do is to put the shovel down rather than to keep digging.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

For most people, sex with a partner they love and desire is far better than solo sex with or without external props. Women seem more likely to use a mechanical (vibrating) prop, men a video screen. And some folks just use hand plus their imagination / memories. 

As to how fulfilling solo-sex is - I believe it depends on the driver. If you feel loved by your partner, physically and emotionally - and you are merely bridging a gap in raw sex drive - it likely works best. It isn’t however going to close a large gap in the emotional connection you have with a partner. 

That said, when solo sex becomes a replacement for partner sex, that is a very real betrayal of your vow to love your partner. 

Just as laying a huge guilt trip on someone for having a lower drive or lower desire for you - is also a betrayal. 




inmyprime said:


> Porn is no good substitute for good sex with your partner for most ‘porn users’. (There are exceptions). It can sometimes lessen the pain but it’s still no good.
> I would prefer sex with wife any day of the week over porn.
> 
> 
> ...


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

CatholicDad said:


> If you're an HD guy and a porn user I really have no sympathy. I mean, you're getting your body's needs met just perhaps not as explosively and exciting as you wish. Boo hoo!
> 
> I'd like to hear from some real men that actually don't do the porn and masturbation thing. Although, maybe the Good God blesses men like that with women that don't turn away.


I only masturbate to paintings of the Virgin Mary.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Cletus said:


> I only masturbate to paintings of the Virgin Mary.


[email protected], @Cletus! Sometimes you're a pain in the @$$ and other times, you really crack me up!:rofl:


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## Notself (Aug 25, 2017)

Cletus said:


> I only masturbate to paintings of the Virgin Mary.


Holy crap. You just won your own thread!


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> [email protected], @Cletus! Sometimes you're a pain in the @$$ and other times, you really crack me up!:rofl:





Notself said:


> Holy crap. You just won your own thread!


That Catholic education was good for more than turning good little altar boys into heathens.


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## aaarghdub (Jul 15, 2017)

MEM2020 said:


> For most people, sex with a partner they love and desire is far better than solo sex with or without external props. Women seem more likely to use a mechanical (vibrating) prop, men a video screen. And some folks just use hand plus their imagination / memories.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Totally agree on not being to bridge the gap long term. I know that for me, it does bridge the gap but can't make up for the emotional gap which is tough because my wife has intimacy issues and I'm on the 1 to 2x/month booty call when she's in the mood. I don't see how not taking care of yourself does anything but make you cranky and angry. 


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## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

MEM2020 said:


> Just as laying a huge guilt trip on someone for having a lower drive or lower desire for you - is also a betrayal.


At the end of the day though, the conversation has to come up at some point about the underlying sexual frequency miss alignment. Hopefully that discussion happens in an open and honest way, it very rarely does. 

Regardless of how much of an open and non-judgmental area is created to discuss the situation, the lower drive person is predisposed to protect their place of privilege.

In most marriages, there are lies of omission. Why? Because one party or both want to protect their ego or position.

I'll agree, don't harrass and lay a guilt trip on them. Watch their actions, because their words mean absolutely nothing. Then decide if it's a deal breaker. If so, then sever it quickly and cleanly. 

Or live with it and deal with the repercussions, just don't ***** about it though. Afterall, you decided it wasn't a deal breaker.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I absolutely believe you ought to talk about it. And the most natural thing in the world is to discuss what you the HD person wants which is typically much greater frequency. 

While natural, it very very rarely works. 

Far far better to reverse the polarity of the conversation by asking what you can do to make the experience better for them. If you get stonewalled - that’s a different issue. 

It’s also ok to suggest that they try some lite/slow touch even when they start out not in the mood and see if nature takes its course. 

If you are dealing with someone who stonewalls on how to make sex better and flat out refuses to even try to work with their responsive desire, you best accept that they believe it’s ok for one person to completely control the marital sex life. You can’t change that belief. But you don’t have to stay married to someone who is unwilling to try to find common ground. 

A lot of this hinges on whether or not your partner really wants to stay with you as opposed to not wanting to be bothered with a divorce. In the former case, you can reboot your sex life by informing a selfish partner that you aren’t interested in staying in a marriage where one person believes they can unilaterally assert total control of the marriage bed. 






Windwalker said:


> At the end of the day though, the conversation has to come up at some point about the underlying sexual frequency miss alignment. Hopefully that discussion happens in an open and honest way, it very rarely does.
> 
> Regardless of how much of an open and non-judgmental area is created to discuss the situation, the lower drive person is predisposed to protect their place of privilege.
> 
> ...


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## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

MEM2020 said:


> I absolutely believe you ought to talk about it. And the most natural thing in the world is to discuss what you the HD person wants which is typically much greater frequency.
> 
> While natural, it very very rarely works.
> 
> ...


For the most part, I can't argue with a single thing you said. I'm not in a sexless marriage. I was at one time, but that was due to hormonal imbalance brought on by BC and has years since past.

That being said, I would approach it from the perspective of what do You need me to do so that WE (we, as in my partner) can have a satisfying sexual relationship. I do agree with you, in that I think most guys are not willing to take the ego hit and ask what it would take to make sex optimal for their spouse. 

In addition, Im going to inquire as to their ideal frequency. Let's face it, if your idea of fun town is hanging off the rafters in a rubber suit 5 nights a week and theirs is light off missionary with their shirt on once a month, it's not going to work. Even if they did come up significantly from their ideal level, the passion is probably going to be missing quite a bit. I personally think I would rather politely decline. I'm also not really interested in slow touching either. If they don't have it, they don't have it, I'm not going to force the issue. 

To the bolded part, I am of the firm belief that, that is unsustainable. I'll probably be considered crude for saying this, but what exactly makes a person such a great catch that their spouse is down for all the trappings of marriage except sex? It's because someone wants to protect their position of privilege.

Quite simply, if you ain't down for ****ing me, you ain't down for all the other benefits that go with that. I can get close companionship with friends. I can also get no sex by being single. Lol.

Just my slightly twisted view.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I think that’s right - it’s a WE thing more than a you or me thing. 

The thing is - most HD folks in sexually broken marriages struggle with one or more of the following issues:
- A need for stability that exceeds their need for sex. It took me a long time to reach that conclusion, and it was mostly driven by the following observation: A high tolerance for instability enables unhappy folks to calmly but firmly initiate discussions about divorce. A moderate tolerance for instability allows the unhappy person to take steps to be happier EVEN WHEN THOSE STEPS MAKE THEIR PARTNERS LESS HAPPY. But the norm in these cases is, these folks won’t prioritize themselves at the expense of their partners because they fear instability above all. Perhaps it’s best to say that they choose unhappy stability over instability.

- Ego protective behavior. This takes many forms. The most glaring one is the intense aversion to asking for partner feedback - or even focusing on the steady stream of non verbal feedback they are already getting. These folks show up looking for sympathy, not help. They claim otherwise, but they avoid all tough questions. Their most obvious red flag is that when they relate conversations with their LD partner, it’s as if their partner wasn’t even in the room during the discussion. It’s a recap of what they said, with little to no info on how their partner responded. And if they are ego protective on an anonymous board, imagine what they are like IRL. 

And then - the biggest red flag. They start numerous threads and begin to carefully omit information that prompts difficult questions. 




Windwalker said:


> For the most part, I can't argue with a single thing you said. I'm not in a sexless marriage. I was at one time, but that was due to hormonal imbalance brought on by BC and has years since past.
> 
> That being said, I would approach it from the perspective of what do You need me to do so that WE (we, as in my partner) can have a satisfying sexual relationship. I do agree with you, in that I think most guys are not willing to take the ego hit and ask what it would take to make sex optimal for their spouse.
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Just to ensure there is no doubt on this - related to my last few posts.

I consider Cletus to be unblighted by any of the issues I raised. He is a class act, a good man and frankly if he were younger I would happily have him as a son in law. 

He followed certain religious rules of engagement and as a result didn’t get to know his wife sexually until they married. 

He has made the best of a difficult situation. 





Cletus said:


> That Catholic education was good for more than turning good little altar boys into heathens.


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## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

MEM2020 said:


> I think that’s right - it’s a WE thing more than a you or me thing.
> 
> The thing is - most HD folks in sexually broken marriages struggle with one or more of the following issues:
> - A need for stability that exceeds their need for sex. It took me a long time to reach that conclusion, and it was mostly driven by the following observation: A high tolerance for instability enables unhappy folks to calmly but firmly initiate discussions about divorce. A moderate tolerance for instability allows the unhappy person to take steps to be happier EVEN WHEN THOSE STEPS MAKE THEIR PARTNERS LESS HAPPY. But the norm in these cases is, these folks won’t prioritize themselves at the expense of their partners because they fear instability above all. Perhaps it’s best to say that they choose unhappy stability over instability.
> ...


You have more than your fair share good to great posts. This one right here is some of your best work. I don't always agree with you, but this right here, it's a real gem.

The most important factor you brought up is stability and the ability to withstand a little chaos.

Feedback is also extremely important, but you also have to create a calm and safe space for that feedback to happen. All to often, I would say that frustrated HD folks allow their disappointment and anger to create walls to building that safe space. Took me a while to learn that one myself. Lol. 

I personally think most of what you just posted is all to often tied to the "nice guy" personality. It seems to me a hell of their own creation about 80% of the time.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Cletus said:


> I only masturbate to paintings of the Virgin Mary.




She was not a virgin (allegedly). Sorry to ruin your fantasy. 


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> Just as laying a huge guilt trip on someone for having a lower drive or lower desire for you - is also a betrayal.



How do you differentiate between making your partner feel guilty about not wanting to have sex with you and expressing dissatisfaction with your partner not wanting you sexually?



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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> I absolutely believe you ought to talk about it. And the most natural thing in the world is to discuss what you the HD person wants which is typically much greater frequency.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I am not sure about this. This borders on passive aggressiveness or at best, it is muddying the issue. Of course the LD partner will say there’s nothing that they’d want to change to make it better for them.
You’ll likely just end up getting into a secondary argument about not being open/honest and only supply them with ammunition to facilitate this argument.

Why not be direct and open?
It probably also depends on the partner. 
The ‘watching the actions bit’ will not work u less it has been brought up to their attention.
I noticed that I had best results by being crude/direct/humorous: ‘are we going to **** or are we going to **** around the issue instead?’
Or something similar. She can normally tell anyway. But many women can’t. (It’s different from ‘won’t’).




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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

MEM2020 said:


> I consider Cletus to be unblighted by any of the issues I raised. He is a class act, a good man and frankly if he were younger I would happily have him as a son in law.
> 
> He followed certain religious rules of engagement and as a result didn’t get to know his wife sexually until they married.
> 
> He has made the best of a difficult situation.


I appreciate that, MEM, even if "class act" is not usually used in my presence!


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

In,
You have identified the potential paradox here. 

You need to be honest, however, being needy tends to be a turnoff. 

So if you truly are needy - your outcome is likely not good. 

That said, if you are in a good marriage with a high level of inter dependence and connectivity - you can run the MAD script: 

Both of us have areas of the marriage where, if the one stopped making an effort, the other would feel neglected. That’s why sane people try to keep marital conflict from escalating. It’s a mutually assured destruction type outcome. Well, emotionally and maybe financially. 

This 1-2 Times a month routine - isn’t working very well for me. I need you to tell me what needs to change for - that - to change. 

——————-
If sex is something you do WITH each other - you have a better chance of a good outcome. 

——————-
For additional context: The whole notion of ‘if I don’t feel like it - you can just **** off’ - would never fly with me. I wouldn’t stay with someone who was ok projecting or accepting that type response to a request. 





inmyprime said:


> How do you differentiate between making your partner feel guilty about not wanting to have sex with you and expressing dissatisfaction with your partner not wanting you sexually?
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

inmyprime said:


> How do you differentiate between making your partner feel guilty about not wanting to have sex with you and expressing dissatisfaction with your partner not wanting you sexually?


You don't. You say what needs to be said. You have no control over your spouse feeling guilty or uncomfortable. That is her reaction to own.

It is not your problem to solve if speaking the truth makes her feel bad somehow. It's up to your spouse to behave differently if he or she is not proud of the current behavior.


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

Cletus said:


> In fair trade, I get no drama. A supportive spouse and mother. A good financial and life partner. Someone to drag to the local wineries. I would have to trade down somewhere else to get hot monkey sex, and I find that I can get along just fine without it.


I could have also written those words. My wife also enjoys it once a week on Saturdays and outside of that window, there is no communication about it, including no (zero) subtle flirting. Like your spouse, she does not like oral, so I have taken that off my expectation list. However, we are always warm and nice to each other with a peck on the lips every morning when leaving for work. I believe that she could go without making love for a very long time without missing it. 

It seems to me that if a wife does not have a strong physical desire for her husband, then she also likely does not have a strong feeling of romantic strong love for her husband either. I believe that my wife has some type of feelings for me, but I am certain that it never was and never will be that more intense type of love. I have experienced before from previous girlfriends, so not having it from my spouse is something that I may never fully adapt to. Another factor is that I believe my wife is capable of more intense type of love because I had seen evidence of it from her previous relationships. 

Is there any husband here who has a wife who is LD, but still expresses a passionate type of love in other ways through her words and actions? I'm not talking about doing kind things for you.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Your partner is already keenly, completely, nay - exhaustively aware - of what YOU want. Repetition eventually becomes destructive.




inmyprime said:


> I am not sure about this. This borders on passive aggressiveness or at best, it is muddying the issue. Of course the LD partner will say there’s nothing that they’d want to change to make it better for them.
> You’ll likely just end up getting into a secondary argument about not being open/honest and only supply them with ammunition to facilitate this argument.
> 
> Why not be direct and open?
> ...


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Not always. Some LDs (like my wife) are remarkably good at not *believing* that it is important to you. I know she believes it is just some trivial thing that I'm complaining about. If I mention it often, I'm just being a selfish child. If I don't mention it, then it must all be OK. 

Sex doesn't matter to her, so she believes it doesn't matter to anyone. 





MEM2020 said:


> Your partner is already keenly, completely, nay - exhaustively aware - of what YOU want. Repetition eventually becomes destructive.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

If you tell your partner that religious beliefs prevent you from engaging in solo sex and therefore they are your only sexual outlet and lacking sufficient frequency makes you tense and angry - that is putting a lot of weight on the other person.

It’s making them directly responsible for how you feel. 

Totally different to say: I’m not agreeable to spending all my free time with you - at our current level of frequency. So - I’m going to prioritize me over us and do more of what I like to do. 

You can’t make someone do more for you. But you can certainly choose to do less for a partner who isn’t prioritizing your needs.





DTO said:


> You don't. You say what needs to be said. You have no control over your spouse feeling guilty or uncomfortable. That is her reaction to own.
> 
> It is not your problem to solve if speaking the truth makes her feel bad somehow. It's up to your spouse to behave differently if he or she is not proud of the current behavior.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

At least in my case my wife will insist that there is nothing she wants me to change - except she wishes I finished quicker (eg, we spent less time having sex). She says she enjoys it and wishes that we could do it more often but she has been tired / busy / jet-lagged / sick / has chores/ needs to feed the cat / is on travel / possessed by demons/ whatever the excuse of the day is. (which is always technically true). 

She most certainly doesn't want a lite / slow touch. She wants me to do things that get her off quickly. 




MEM2020 said:


> snip
> 
> Far far better to reverse the polarity of the conversation by asking what you can do to make the experience better for them. If you get stonewalled - that’s a different issue.
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Uhtred,
You are one of the few folks here who would easily score quite a bit higher than me on a traditional IQ test. 

On an EQ test, I think we’d have a very different outcome because my view of reality is largely unskewed by what I want to believe. 

The couple times you have skirted round the idea of getting divorced, U2 has quietly but noticeably upped her sexual efforts. She correctly interpreted your comments as a warning that she was at the ragged edge of an end of marriage event. 

And while you fully understand the logic underlying my positions related to monogamy:
- It’s just as much a responsibility as it is an obligation 
- It is entirely unreasonable to demand total control of your partners sex life:
Via insisting on 100% control of the marriage bed and
Describing porn as a type of cheating

You have been unwilling to put the ball in U2’s court by doing something as simple as this: our sex life is and has been more frustration than joy - so I’m using porn as an overflow valve - if you want to leave me over (sex) something which you claim is not important, I accept that. 

You would never tolerate someone at work doing what she has done. Which is to demand total authority without accepting any responsibility. 

My guess - if you forced the issue - you might actually have an honest conversation with U2.




uhtred said:


> Not always. Some LDs (like my wife) are remarkably good at not *believing* that it is important to you. I know she believes it is just some trivial thing that I'm complaining about. If I mention it often, I'm just being a selfish child. If I don't mention it, then it must all be OK.
> 
> Sex doesn't matter to her, so she believes it doesn't matter to anyone.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

You are probably right that I'm believing what I *want* to believe about her motivations.

FWIW, if she ever asks about porn, I will tell her. Maybe she guesses. Don't know or really care.


The rational part of my brain can recognize my own irrationality. 

I think the rational view is:

She doesn't want much sex. That won't change.

I can pressure her to have more sex in order to keep me from leaving.

Sex is fun, but without real desire and enthusiasm, its not really worth that much to me. 

I am irrationally emphatic. I find it very difficult to cause someone pain. My divorcing her would cause her pain.

The rest of my life is good. I'm too lazy to disrupt it by getting divorced and trying to start relationships / romance all over again. 






MEM2020 said:


> Uhtred,
> You are one of the few folks here who would easily score quite a bit higher than me on a traditional IQ test.
> 
> On an EQ test, I think we’d have a very different outcome because my view of reality is largely unskewed by what I want to believe.
> ...


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

MEM2020 said:


> Your partner is already keenly, completely, nay - exhaustively aware - of what YOU want. *Repetition eventually becomes destructive.*


Yep. No matter how righteous a point may be, continuing to bludgeon someone with it will only yield increasingly negative results.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Yes

M2 is clearly ‘in love’ with me. Though - it comes in waves. Some days she just ‘loves’ me. And othe days is clearly in love. When ‘in love’ she can’t say no to me. And is easily turned on. 




Steve1000 said:


> I could have also written those words. My wife also enjoys it once a week on Saturdays and outside of that window, there is no communication about it, including no (zero) subtle flirting. Like your spouse, she does not like oral, so I have taken that off my expectation list. However, we are always warm and nice to each other with a peck on the lips every morning when leaving for work. I believe that she could go without making love for a very long time without missing it.
> 
> It seems to me that if a wife does not have a strong physical desire for her husband, then she also likely does not have a strong feeling of romantic strong love for her husband either. I believe that my wife has some type of feelings for me, but I am certain that it never was and never will be that more intense type of love. I have experienced before from previous girlfriends, so not having it from my spouse is something that I may never fully adapt to. Another factor is that I believe my wife is capable of more intense type of love because I had seen evidence of it from her previous relationships.
> 
> Is there any husband here who has a wife who is LD, but still expresses a passionate type of love in other ways through her words and actions? I'm not talking about doing kind things for you.


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

MEM2020 said:


> Yes
> 
> M2 is clearly ‘in love’ with me. Though - it comes in waves. Some days she just ‘loves’ me. And othe days is clearly in love. When ‘in love’ she can’t say no to me. And is easily turned on.


You consider your wife to be LD and she rarely expresses sexual thoughts with you?


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> She was not a virgin (allegedly). Sorry to ruin your fantasy.


At least not by the time that she posed for that portrait. :smile2:


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Always been:
- A super high touch marriage. Days begin, end and randomly contain long full body hugs. Not really a sexual vibe to the hugs. 
- A highly playful marriage - lots of banter and chuckles to full blown laughter
- Lots of board games and walks/bike rides - spend a ton of time together


Not really much sexual vibe between us at all. But pretty regular and high quality sex at 1-2 per week. We are 55, entering year 29. The first decade together was close to daily sex. It gradually slowed to where we are now. 

She mostly has responsive desire. And she is under no pressure to pretend in bed. If she finishes - great - if not - there’s no interrogation about what’s wrong with me or her. I do think about half our encounters are driven by her desire to make me happy. Just as I do a lot of stuff outside the bedroom to make her happy. 

We are maybe both a 9 on a 10 scale as companions for each other. Sex wise - not quite so balanced - she’s a 9 for me, I’m more a 6 for her. That isn’t a chassis mismatch, she just wants more edge and more adventurousness than I provide by default. 

When I crank up the edge factor, we have more sex. It simply doesn’t come all that naturally to me. So I don’t normally do it. 





Steve1000 said:


> You consider your wife to be LD and she rarely expresses sexual thoughts with you?


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

MEM2020 said:


> Always been:
> - A super high touch marriage. Days begin, end and randomly contain long full body hugs. Not really a sexual vibe to the hugs.
> - A highly playful marriage - lots of banter and chuckles to full blown laughter
> - Lots of board games and walks/bike rides - spend a ton of time together
> ...


Thanks. In regard to your post, in my opinion, your wife was not a typical LD spouse. Sex nearly everyday for the first decade and her desire for more adventure are traits that those of us in a sexually disappointing marriage do not experience. I assume that she must have verbally expressed to you her desire for more adventure. Did she ever plan any sexual surprises help with her desire for more adventures?


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Steve1000 said:


> Is there any husband here who has a wife who is LD, but still expresses a passionate type of love in other ways through her words and actions? I'm not talking about doing kind things for you.


Yes, but not until I took sex completely off the table. However, having taken sex completely off the table, I no longer get much of a thrill from her professions of love for me. She frequently reaches for my hand to hold. I previously yearned for that, and was often rejected. Now it is nice but more of "meh" experience. She wants to hug me tightly pretty much every day, something she absolutely refused to do during MC and ST. Again, I like it but there is no oxytocin rush as there was before. Now it seems she gets the rush from non-sexual physical touch that I used to get. Ironic and sad. She often sends me "I love you" texts, heart emojis, etc. Previously initiating such comments was a one-way street from me to her with unreliable reciprocation. There are times I get the sense that she wishes I would initiate sex. Now I get more of a thrill from NOT initiating than from having sex. I have dropped the rope. I have pulled a 180. Now she "chases" me and I am the one to stonewall or pull away.

I enjoy this side of the mismatch more than the other. But that is saying very very little.


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

Holdingontoit said:


> Yes, but not until I took sex completely off the table. However, having taken sex completely off the table, I no longer get much of a thrill from her professions of love for me. She frequently reaches for my hand to hold. I previously yearned for that, and was often rejected. Now it is nice but more of "meh" experience. She wants to hug me tightly pretty much every day, something she absolutely refused to do during MC and ST. Again, I like it but there is no oxytocin rush as there was before. Now it seems she gets the rush from non-sexual physical touch that I used to get. Ironic and sad. She often sends me "I love you" texts, heart emojis, etc. Previously initiating such comments was a one-way street from me to her with unreliable reciprocation. There are times I get the sense that she wishes I would initiate sex. Now I get more of a thrill from NOT initiating than from having sex. I have dropped the rope. I have pulled a 180. Now she "chases" me and I am the one to stonewall or pull away.
> 
> I enjoy this side of the mismatch more than the other. But that is saying very very little.


Thanks. Our marriages all have their own specific aspects to bring to the table. My wife actually initiates holding hands, especially in public. Last week, she actually asked me if I still love her and then told me that she loves me very much, which is very uncommon for her. Several years ago, she would not have said that. Instead the would say that good stable relationships are those in which the man loves the woman more. Recently, she also expressed her New Year's wish that we are always together, which again is unusual because she rarely is sentimental about our relationship. 

Therefore last night after watching a sad romantic movie about two people who loved each other passionately, I saw that she had tears in her eyes due to the movie's sad ending. I asked her if she would ever desire to have that type of passionate love. In her response,she said something like "No, because that type of love isn't stable." She's been a friendly, warm, and stable wife and we never argue. However, knowing that I was settled for is probably going to bother me as long as we're married.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

MEM2020 said:


> We are maybe both a 9 on a 10 scale as companions for each other. Sex wise - not quite so balanced - she’s a 9 for me, I’m more a 6 for her. That isn’t a *chassis mismatch*...


:lol:

Nothing worse than designing a light duty truck on a passenger car frame.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Steve1000 said:


> Thanks. In regard to your post, in my opinion, your wife was not a typical LD spouse. Sex nearly everyday for the first decade and her desire for more adventure are traits that those of us in a sexually disappointing marriage do not experience. I assume that she must have verbally expressed to you her desire for more adventure. Did she ever plan any sexual surprises help with her desire for more adventures?


If that's the definition of an LD spouse, sign me up...

That's not how most of us with LD or ND spouses see LD...

I have indicated that many people here feel that a toxic marriage is when the wife wants wallpaper and the husband wants wainscoting... It's a lot more complicated than this.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Cletus said:


> Nothing worse than designing a light duty truck on a passenger car frame.


Honda Ridgeline....


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

uhtred said:


> At least in my case my wife will insist that there is nothing she wants me to change - except she wishes I finished quicker (eg, we spent less time having sex). She says she enjoys it and wishes that we could do it more often but she has been tired / busy / jet-lagged / sick / has chores/ needs to feed the cat / is on travel / possessed by demons/ whatever the excuse of the day is. (which is always technically true).
> 
> 
> 
> She most certainly doesn't want a lite / slow touch. She wants me to do things that get her off quickly.




Haha, exactly. Mine will also likely go ballistic if there’s any sense that I’m pretending to show her false compassion, by asking her what kind of touch she would prefer in bed...Unfortunately she’s quite smart and might ‘touch’ me with a frying pan.

Btw if it’s ‘technically true’ that your wife is possessed by a demon, I do have a number of a reputable exorcist. 
He knows how to give those demons a jolly good orgasm too 


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

If its the right sort of demon, I'm fine with it. 



inmyprime said:


> snip
> Btw if it’s ‘technically true’ that your wife is possessed by a demon, I do have a number of a reputable exorcist.
> He knows how to give those demons a jolly good orgasm too
> 
> ...


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> If you tell your partner that religious beliefs prevent you from engaging in solo sex and therefore they are your only sexual outlet and lacking sufficient frequency makes you tense and angry - that is putting a lot of weight on the other person.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




And what if the other partner is totally fine with it? Then the marriage reaches an unhealthy equilibrium where both people get on with their own life, ignoring each other for the most part. I wouldn’t call it a healthy marriage. In other words, this is a more sophisticated way to say that if I don’t get the sex I need, I should just stop giving a **** about my partner in the hope that they learn something from it. (Because that’s really what it’s about).
Well the only thing they will learn is that I stopped giving a **** and that that’s the way I like it from now onwards. And they may be fine with it, as long as they are left alone.
There are many people here who reached precisely this point and I don’t think they are particularly happy...They have just conditioned themselves to see their partner as the root of all of their problems and relish in their resentment.
No, if i ever reached that point, i would sit my wife down and tell her that I’m lonely, I’m suffering and it’s not working for me. And then wait what their say and either leave or enjoy some make up sex. People who don’t leave, probably don’t need it THAT badly...And the partner knows it.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> Uhtred,
> 
> You are one of the few folks here who would easily score quite a bit higher than me on a traditional IQ test.
> 
> ...




Now we are talking 


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

uhtred said:


> You are probably right that I'm believing what I *want* to believe about her motivations.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




A big part of woman’s desire comes from enjoying giving her partner sexual pleasure. That means that while she herself may not get that much out of sex herself, she could be getting a lot out of making her partner sexually happy (I have observed it quite a lot with some women). Which eventually can result in getting something out of sex itself eventually. It’s a domino effect. You don’t have to make her WANT sex but there are other incentives you can give her.

I think with you, part of the problem is that she constantly feels that whatever she is doing, it’s not really doing much for you. (And it’s perfectly possible she’s just very bad at it...) But that means you have to become a better teacher so that she at least can feel some sense of accomplishment.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I greatly enjoy pleasing her - but she gives no impression of the reverse. I think that is a piece of the problem - she just doesn't seem to get any direct enjoyment out of pleasing me. She likes to do things for me (up to a point), but never gives the impression that she actively enjoys it. She also doesn't seem to believe me when I tell her that I do - she thinks I'm just making that up (which is why I think she isn't enjoying).

It is true that she may feel what she is doing isn't enough. OTOH there have been very good times lasting several months where frequency and variety was great. Early on I thought she was really enjoying that as well, but I'm starting to think she was just trying to keep me from leaving. If I mention those times she just says that she has been "really tired lately" (where lately is 10 years, and tired doesn't stop her from hiking all day in the wilderness when she wants to. 

She is VERY resistant to doing anything I ask - even if she has offered to do the same things in the recent past. Its been well over a year since we've engaged in any sexual activity when I initiated. Sadly this is probably a control thing. Maybe its ALL a control issue. That would be sad. 

Her behavior is consistent with a woman who doesn't need sex but is willing to use it, or lack of it, to manipulate me. I may have spent my life in love with a fundamentally evil woman.

I'm able to view multiple options with probabilities assigned, and this case isn't very close to zero.

OR, she may really love me but is just LD to asexual by nature and is unable to recognize another person's need / desire for sex. 




inmyprime said:


> A big part of woman’s desire comes from enjoying giving her partner sexual pleasure. That means that while she herself may not get that much out of sex herself, she could be getting a lot out of making her partner sexually happy (I have observed it quite a lot with some women). Which eventually can result in getting something out of sex itself eventually. It’s a domino effect. You don’t have to make her WANT sex but there are other incentives you can give her.
> 
> I think with you, part of the problem is that she constantly feels that whatever she is doing, it’s not really doing much for you. (And it’s perfectly possible she’s just very bad at it...) But that means you have to become a better teacher so that she at least can feel some sense of accomplishment.
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Totally agree with this. It aligns perfectly with your depiction of her behavior over time. 

SOME women get off on giving pleasure. Plenty do not. That’s hardwired. For M2 - if you asked her to describe what makes a good wife - which she places a VERY high value on - sex would probably be her second highest item. And I think she would say that if you are a bad sexual partner you can’t be a good wife. A good person - sure. But a good wife. No. 

She has this phrase she’s used for nigh on thirty years now. She says: I am not going to be one of THOSE women. Emphasis on the word THOSE. Tone borders on contempt. 

But it’s all part of the monogamy or death package - so it really does make sense. We did that dance early on. 
M2: you cheat and you die, or worse
MEM: I’m hard wired for monogamy - provided I’m not walking round chronically frustrated - cause that isn’t gonna work for me. Not gonna sneak around the back door - if I’m unhappy you will know it - you’ll get a monogamy revocation memo
M2: And I’ll give you a second circumcision takes off a lot more than your foreskin - considering how promptly I will take action, unlikely there will be time for me to properly sterilize my cutting tools
MEM: sounds like we understand each other
M2: yep





uhtred said:


> I greatly enjoy pleasing her - but she gives no impression of the reverse. I think that is a piece of the problem - she just doesn't seem to get any direct enjoyment out of pleasing me. She likes to do things for me (up to a point), but never gives the impression that she actively enjoys it. She also doesn't seem to believe me when I tell her that I do - she thinks I'm just making that up (which is why I think she isn't enjoying).
> 
> It is true that she may feel what she is doing isn't enough. OTOH there have been very good times lasting several months where frequency and variety was great. Early on I thought she was really enjoying that as well, but I'm starting to think she was just trying to keep me from leaving. If I mention those times she just says that she has been "really tired lately" (where lately is 10 years, and tired doesn't stop her from hiking all day in the wilderness when she wants to.
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Couple times she talked about wanting to do something specific and then shortly after we did those things. Usually she would just DO new things or fun things in exotic places. 

I do try to give her a bit more edge - when I remind myself. So tonight I said: by the way I’m gonna need you to perform your wifely duties tomorrow seeing as how I’m heading to California for business Wednesday. Don’t want me to depart unsatisfied, creates the risk I might be overcome by male urges during my visit. 

Produced a fairly good brawl - though - my ability to block her strikes was somewhat impaired by how much I was laughing. 

She kept saying: overcome by your male urges huh, come here baby cause my knee is just the cure for THAT 




Steve1000 said:


> Thanks. In regard to your post, in my opinion, your wife was not a typical LD spouse. Sex nearly everyday for the first decade and her desire for more adventure are traits that those of us in a sexually disappointing marriage do not experience. I assume that she must have verbally expressed to you her desire for more adventure. Did she ever plan any sexual surprises help with her desire for more adventures?


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

uhtred said:


> I greatly enjoy pleasing her - but she gives no impression of the reverse. I think that is a piece of the problem - she just doesn't seem to get any direct enjoyment out of pleasing me. She likes to do things for me (up to a point), but never gives the impression that she actively enjoys it. She also doesn't seem to believe me when I tell her that I do - she thinks I'm just making that up (which is why I think she isn't enjoying).
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Either way, you are not putting your foot down: you should consider leaving her/separating if she is not getting it. It’s ridiculous. I realise you can’t be bothered etc but you should enforce your principles/values.
She obviously CAN do those things (since she has been sexually active with you on the past). She just chooses not to, anymore.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> And what if the other partner is totally fine with it? Then the marriage reaches an unhealthy equilibrium where both people get on with their own life, ignoring each other for the most part. I wouldn’t call it a healthy marriage. In other words, *this is a more sophisticated way to say that if I don’t get the sex I need, I should just stop giving a **** about my partner in the hope that they learn something from it. (Because that’s really what it’s about).*
> Well the only thing they will learn is that I stopped giving a **** and that that’s the way I like it from now onwards. And they may be fine with it, as long as they are left alone.
> There are many people here who reached precisely this point and I don’t think they are particularly happy...They have just conditioned themselves to see their partner as the root of all of their problems and relish in their resentment.
> No, if i ever reached that point, i would sit my wife down and tell her that I’m lonely, I’m suffering and it’s not working for me. And then wait what their say and either leave or enjoy some make up sex. People who don’t leave, probably don’t need it THAT badly...And the partner knows it.
> ...


Per the bolded... It is amazingly intuitive that you know ones intentions behind their actions, as well as how they must feel about their partner.


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## Malaise (Aug 8, 2012)

uhtred said:


> I greatly enjoy pleasing her - but she gives no impression of the reverse. I think that is a piece of the problem - she just doesn't seem to get any direct enjoyment out of pleasing me. She likes to do things for me (up to a point), but never gives the impression that she actively enjoys it. She also doesn't seem to believe me when I tell her that I do - she thinks I'm just making that up (which is why I think she isn't enjoying).
> 
> It is true that she may feel what she is doing isn't enough. OTOH there have been very good times lasting several months where frequency and variety was great. Early on I thought she was really enjoying that as well, but I'm starting to think she was just trying to keep me from leaving. If I mention those times she just says that she has been "really tired lately" (where lately is 10 years, and tired doesn't stop her from hiking all day in the wilderness when she wants to.
> 
> ...


Years ago I joined TAM after a Google search put me in SIM. I was trying to understand what my late wife had been doing ( long story ).

One thing I discovered was that my situation had not been unique. To my surprise.

Other searches in other places led to more info. I'm especially grateful to @Thor whose posts on CSA proved valuable. 

In the matter of control the following was an eye-opener.


https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...usive-women/&usg=AOvVaw1hSxo4Xq3YJTL47A42Lany


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

farsidejunky said:


> Per the bolded... It is amazingly intuitive that you know ones intentions behind their actions, as well as how they must feel about their partner.


Pursuing ones hobbies or devoting more time to yourself at the expense of taking the time away from partner is in a way a statement isn't it? (in the partner's eyes). It's not an explicit statement but a statement nonetheless. I am not criticising this course of action (it may be a perfectly reasonable thing to do, given certain marriage dynamics), I am just pointing it out for what it is as I am not sure it would work for everyone. (Because some partners may actually be fine with it or think that this is their new marriage paradigm). It doesn't actually address the issue. And many men tend to prefer to avoid the issue (for many reasons).


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> Pursuing ones hobbies or devoting more time to yourself at the expense of taking the time away from partner is in a way a statement isn't it? (in the partner's eyes). It's not an explicit statement but a statement nonetheless. I am not criticising this course of action (it may be a perfectly reasonable thing to do, given certain marriage dynamics), I am just pointing it out for what it is as I am not sure it would work for everyone. (Because some partners may actually be fine with it or think that this is their new marriage paradigm). It doesn't actually address the issue. And many men tend to prefer to avoid the issue (for many reasons).


This is a fair post. The one which we are now debating was far from it, as you indicated that one must feel a certain way in order to behave a certain way. 

Assuming ones intentions is a thinking trap, and you would do well do avoid it.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

inmyprime said:


> Pursuing ones hobbies or devoting more time to yourself at the expense of taking the time away from partner is in a way a statement isn't it? (in the partner's eyes). It's not an explicit statement but a statement nonetheless. I am not criticising this course of action (it may be a perfectly reasonable thing to do, given certain marriage dynamics), I am just pointing it out for what it is as I am not sure it would work for everyone. (Because some partners may actually be fine with it or think that this is their new marriage paradigm).* It doesn't actually address the issue.* And many men tend to prefer to avoid the issue (for many reasons).


I think it depends though in terms of the bolded. The issue may have very well been addressed but not resolved to the person's liking per se. How they proceed from there will be individualistic. Maybe the answer is divorce, maybe the answer is to adjust one's own behavior, etc...


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

EllisRedding said:


> I think it depends though in terms of the bolded. The issue may have very well been addressed but not resolved to the person's liking per se. How they proceed from there will be individualistic. Maybe the answer is divorce, maybe the answer is to adjust one's own behavior, etc...


But that's the point: if the LD partner will accept divorce, instead of trying to adjust, discuss it or find a compromise or work on it or whatever, then doesn't this say everything about the relationship? 
Look at 'How do I accept it' thread for reference...


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

farsidejunky said:


> This is a fair post. The one which we are now debating was far from it, as you indicated that one must feel a certain way in order to behave a certain way.
> 
> Assuming ones intentions is a thinking trap, and you would do well do avoid it.


Yes, the other one was deliberately too strongly put. But make no mistake, the LD partner may choose to see it exactly this way. And throw it into ones face if they wanted to. And there aren't many reasons why they couldn't see it that way. It all becomes a power game.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

inmyprime said:


> But that's the point: if the LD partner will accept divorce, instead of trying to adjust, discuss it or find a compromise or work on it or whatever, then doesn't this say everything about the relationship?
> Look at 'How do I accept it' thread for reference...


It depends. First, if you aren't serious about divorce, you don't throw that option out there. I would not divorce my W solely over our sex life (unless there are other factors involved), so I would not throw around that threat in order to get what I want. Keep in mind as well per above, your post takes the stance that issue has not been discussed. What I am saying, for some, the issues have been adequately discussed, and each person will decide based on the results how they would adjust. Yes, in a perfect world two people discuss issues, compromise, meet somewhere in the middle, etc... We all know that often that is not the reality. Note, this is different then if you have an issue and never speak up.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

It may seem like I am taking sides, I don't. I just switch how I phrase things between one perspective and another. I understand the reasons behind both sides' behaviour.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> Yes, the other one was deliberately too strongly put. But make no mistake, the LD partner may choose to see it exactly this way. And throw it into ones face if they wanted to. And there aren't many reasons why they couldn't see it that way. It all becomes a power game.


"I'm not doing this to you. I'm doing it for me. That said, when you are ready to make each other's needs a priority again, the need for the other things I am pursuing will likely subside."


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> Yes, the other one was deliberately too strongly put. But make no mistake, the LD partner may choose to see it exactly this way. And throw it into ones face if they wanted to. And there aren't many reasons why they couldn't see it that way. It all becomes a power game.


One other thing.

I think you struggle to recognize the difference between pulling harder on the rope versus simply dropping it.


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> But that's the point: if the LD partner will accept divorce, instead of trying to adjust, discuss it or find a compromise or work on it or whatever, then doesn't this say everything about the relationship?
> Look at 'How do I accept it' thread for reference...


I think that if the LD partner is not "into" her/his spouse, then discussing how to adjust or compromise isn't really going to help anything. The best possible outcome is only for the LD to agree to have sex on a more regular basis. The problem of the LD spouse not being "into" their spouse still remains. If there is a 1% chance to solve the problem, I think that it would be to separate instead of merely threatening to separate. Of course if someone decides to separate, they need to be willing to accept the more likely outcome of the end of the marriage.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> It depends. First, if you aren't serious about divorce, you don't throw that option out there. I would not divorce my W solely over our sex life (unless there are other factors involved), so I would not throw around that threat in order to get what I want. Keep in mind as well per above, your post takes the stance that issue has not been discussed. What I am saying, for some, the issues have been adequately discussed, and each person will decide based on the results how they would adjust. Yes, in a perfect world two people discuss issues, compromise, meet somewhere in the middle, etc... We all know that often that is not the reality. Note, this is different then if you have an issue and never speak up.


This is important. 

Whether the parties realize it or not, any discussion of this subject is a negotiation...every...single...time.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

EllisRedding said:


> It depends. First, if you aren't serious about divorce, you don't throw that option out there. I would not divorce my W solely over our sex life (unless there are other factors involved), so I would not throw around that threat in order to get what I want.


Why not though? To me it could be a deal breaker and I left the house maybe once or twice over it. And once I said that I would like to take time apart. She otherwise had no clue it was that serious. And the amount of posts people go on about this, i cannot believe it is not that serious for them. People's lives literally become miserable because of this.




EllisRedding said:


> Keep in mind as well per above, your post takes the stance that issue has not been discussed. What I am saying, for some, the issues have been adequately discussed, and each person will decide based on the results how they would adjust. Yes, in a perfect world two people discuss issues, compromise, meet somewhere in the middle, etc... We all know that often that is not the reality. Note, this is different then if you have an issue and never speak up.


No, I don't assume it hasn't been discussed: my point was that I am not certain that the next step that follows after all possible discussions have been exhausted is the 'I am now doing my own **** and ignore the partner until they decide to take my needs seriously again'. I think this avenue might open up more room for more arguments instead. (And I can also see how this works for some. I am not sure it would work in my situation). 

Plus - and this is much more important - what maybe people don't realise is that you condition your brain to resent your partner. What happens then is that even if the partner tries, the resentment is already there. The resentment of your partner is like a disease that evolves: the longer it persists the worse it gets (check Holdingontoit's thread for reference). People may think this is a solution to condition their partner but may perhaps not realise what they are doing to themselves (in terms of perception of their own partner). Once it's damaged for good, I don't believe it is easy to just go back.
Hope that makes sense.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

In,
Maybe. But unless you really know both folks, it is hard to know if - maybe impossible to know - their true dynamic. 

Guy comes on here, very unhappy. Gets some advice and uses it. Wife tells him he is crowding her, she needs space to feel desire. 

He proceeds to tell us that isn’t what she really means - because - his need for stability is greater than his need for sex. 

That wife - when he ignores her request for space - my guess is that she is very very unhappy. He asked, she answered and he is dismissing the answer because he doesn’t like it. 






inmyprime said:


> But that's the point: if the LD partner will accept divorce, instead of trying to adjust, discuss it or find a compromise or work on it or whatever, then doesn't this say everything about the relationship?
> Look at 'How do I accept it' thread for reference...


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

farsidejunky said:


> This is important.
> 
> Whether the parties realize it or not, any discussion of this subject is a negotiation...every...single...time.


Of course it is: would you not negotiate if it was a business deal? Would you go away and devote time to yourself instead, hoping that the other party comes to their senses and accepts the deal?

PS: Granted, sometimes acting as if you don't want to even discuss the deal may work in some cases...However it's not the usual way to get a deal done.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Giving plenty of space to your partner (and it being beneficial) is a rather different issue.
I am solely addressing using the ignore function as a conditioning tactic, which is what the bolded part is:

"I'm not doing this to you. I'm doing it for me. *That said, when you are ready to make each other's needs a priority again, the need for the other things I am pursuing will likely subside."*



MEM2020 said:


> In,
> Maybe. But unless you really know both folks, it is hard to know if - maybe impossible to know - their true dynamic.
> 
> Guy comes on here, very unhappy. Gets some advice and uses it. Wife tells him he is crowding her, she needs space to feel desire.
> ...


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

inmyprime said:


> Why not though? To me it could be a deal breaker and I left the house maybe once or twice over it. And once I said that I would like to take time apart. She otherwise had no clue it was that serious. And the amount of posts people go on about this, i cannot believe it is not that serious for them. People's lives literally become miserable because of this.


Like I said, I would not divorce over the current state of my sex life, so what does it accomplish throwing out a threat that I am not willing to go through on at this point (i.e. it is not a deal breaker for me currently, but of course that could change). Maybe in part too, I am not miserable lol. I actually have a good life. In all other aspects I have a very good marriage and family life. The good greatly outweighs the bad. If that changes then my approach would change as well.





inmyprime said:


> No, I don't assume it hasn't been discussed: my point was that I am not certain that the next step that follows after all possible discussions have been exhausted is the 'I am now doing my own **** and ignore the partner until they decide to take my needs seriously again'. I think this avenue might opens up more room for more arguments instead. (And I can also see how this works for some. I am not sure it would work in my situation). Plus what maybe people don't realise is that you condition your brain to resent your partner. What happens then is that even if the partner tries, the resentment is already there. The resentment of your partner is like a disease that evolves: the longer it persists the worse it gets (check Holdingontoit's thread for reference). People may think this is a solution to condition their partner but may perhaps not realise what they are doing to themselves (in terms of perception of their own partner). Once it's damaged for good, I don't believe it is easy to just go back.
> Hope that makes sense.


I do follow what you are saying, I think we are just talking from a different perspective. In my case specifically, I am not saying 'I am now doing my own **** and ignore the partner until they decide to take my needs seriously again'. There are others here who may actually be doing/thinking that, but adjusting your side doesn't necessarily translate into ignoring your partner or giving them the bird. Once again though, everyone's situation will be different from the next.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Btw speaking of space: going on business trips has been one of the biggest aphrodisiacs in my marriage. I kind of felt insulted about this for a while (because what turns ME on is being close to my partner, not 'the idea' of my partner). But I realise it might be an evolutionary thing: men go out hunting, woman gets all wet from the thought of all the food that's coming her way later....
Must be that (I hope!). :scratchhead::scratchhead:


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

farsidejunky said:


> One other thing.
> 
> I think you struggle to recognize the difference between pulling harder on the rope versus simply dropping it.


I do recognise the difference: I was merely pointing out the potential danger of ending up pulling and damaging ones own rope, without realising it.

Plus, if you make it a habit of pulling on that rope in that way, they become a walk-away wife (because 'you ignored me and didn't care for me for all these years'). So same possible end result anyway.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> Of course it is: would you not negotiate if it was a business deal? Would you go away and devote time to yourself instead, hoping that the other party comes to their senses and accepts the deal?
> 
> PS: Granted, sometimes acting as if you don't want to even discuss the deal may work in some cases...However it's not the usual way to get a deal done.


But therein lies the problem. This is why the time for talk eventually ends. I went round and around with my wife for about six months. 

Then I stopped talking and began to allow the instability to seep in. I was carrying the relationship water until then....and then I stopped.

It was only then that I began to get her attention. 

Why?

Because I no longer enabled her to be comfortable in my own discomfort.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

I don't disagree it may have had an effect in the short term. I am concerned about the long term. She may have accomplished more for herself than you realise: she not only pushed you away (and off her leg) but she also made you push her away, and she becomes the victim.




farsidejunky said:


> But therein lies the problem. This is why the time for talk eventually ends. I went round and around with my wife for about six months.
> 
> Then I stopped talking and began to allow the instability to seep in. I was carrying the relationship water until then....and then I stopped.
> 
> ...


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> I don't disagree it may have had an effect in the short term. I am concerned about the long term. She may have accomplished more for herself than you realise: she not only pushed you away (and off her leg) but she also made you push her away, and she becomes the victim.


What advantage does she get when she "becomes the victim"?


----------



## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> I do recognise the difference: I was merely pointing out the potential danger of ending up pulling and damaging ones own rope, without realising it.
> 
> Plus, if you make it a habit of pulling on that rope in that way, they become a walk-away wife (because 'you ignored me and didn't care for me for all these years'). So same possible end result anyway.


Then you are better off without her.

Life is too short to remain tethered to someone who can simultaneously deny their partner intimacy while viewing themself as a victim.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

farsidejunky said:


> What advantage does she get when she "becomes the victim"?


You really don't know? 
Well, for a start she now has all the reasons to leave you anytime she wants and making it your fault. The moment you give any indication that you might be checking out of the relationship, the advantage goes to her. And it won't matter that she was perhaps the one not caring in the first place because now you are the evil knievel. 

If the issue really matters to you, making it clear that it's a deal breaker (and for me it is, I realise for many it's not), you might fast track all the bull****.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

And here, we are in complete agreement.



farsidejunky said:


> Then you are better off without her.
> 
> Life is too short to remain tethered to someone who can simultaneously deny their partner intimacy while viewing themself as a victim.


----------



## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> You really don't know?
> Well, for a start she now has all the reasons to leave you anytime she wants and making it your fault. The moment you give any indication that you might be checking out of the relationship, the advantage goes to her. And it won't matter that she was perhaps the one not caring in the first place because now you are the evil knievel.
> 
> If the issue really matters to you, making it clear that it's a deal breaker (and for me it is, I realise for many it's not), you might fast track all the bull****.


Why does her view of you matter at that point?

Her reality being your reality is not a requirement. Insisting on "correcting" such a mindset is an exercise in futility, and shows something in _you_ that needs to be addressed. 

I don't need to see it her way any more than she needs to see it my way. I will state what I will and will not accept. She can acquiesce, resist, negotiate, *****, complain... Yet if what I will/will not accept is based on my principles, none of it matters. 

In fact, the more value I place on what she thinks of what I believe, the more it waters down the importance of what it is I believe.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

farsidejunky said:


> Why does her view of you matter at that point?
> 
> Her reality being your reality is not a requirement. Insisting on "correcting" such a mindset is an exercise in futility, and shows something in _you_ that needs to be addressed.
> 
> ...


At THAT point, it may not matter anymore. However leading up to it, it might, because as a victim, she will have every right to blame this stuff on you. Unless you have the unique ability to just shut it out and ignore it completely and not let it bother you. But then again: at what point do the two of you stop being 'partners' and become two roommates who resent each other?

I am again referencing Breeze's thread...she's more than willing to give her everything now that he is leaving her except that he now lost the ability to accept it, because for him it is too late. Had he done the same thing 10 years ago though...

I am just looking into the future here....(not your future, anyone's future where this might apply).


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> But then again: at what point do the two of you stop being 'partners' and become two roommates who resent each other?


You can only legitimately resent someone in this situation who is acting on or withholding something that they are otherwise capable of giving. 

This is the requirement of acceptance, assuming it's true - that you stop in the erroneous belief that your partner is as he or she is solely as a _choice_ that does not sufficiently consider your needs. 

I never chose to like everything about sex more than my spouse, and she never chose to have less interest. The blame is misplaced. Coercion is at that point slightly immoral, IMHO.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> At THAT point, it may not matter anymore. However leading up to it, it might, because as a victim, she will have every right to blame this stuff on you. Unless you have the unique ability to just shut it out and ignore it completely and not let it bother you. But then again: at what point do the two of you stop being 'partners' and become two roommates who resent each other?
> 
> I am again referencing Breeze's thread...she's more than willing to give her everything now that he is leaving her except that he now lost the ability to accept it, because for him it is too late. Had he done the same thing 10 years ago though...
> 
> I am just looking into the future here....(not your future, anyone's future where this might apply).


"I'm sorry you feel that way."


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Cletus said:


> You can only legitimately resent someone in this situation who is acting on or withholding something that they are otherwise capable of giving.
> 
> This is the requirement of acceptance, assuming it's true - that you stop in the erroneous belief that your partner is as he or she is solely as a _choice_ that does not sufficiently consider your needs.
> 
> I never chose to like everything about sex more than my spouse, and she never chose to have less interest. The blame is misplaced. Coercion is at that point slightly immoral, IMHO.


But that's the point: as the 'victim of neglect', she now can choose any reason she wishes to resent her partner for, it doesn't have to have anything to do with sex! (Even though it may have started with HD's resentment in the first place!). In fact, it won't have anything to do with sex because that would be an oxymoron in her world.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> But that's the point: as the 'victim of neglect', she now can choose any reason she wishes to resent her partner for, it doesn't have to have anything to do with sex! (Even though it may have started with HD's resentment in the first place!). In fact, it won't have anything to do with sex because that would be an oxymoron in her world.


So don't neglect your spouse. 

I don't, even though I too have strategies for reducing my sexual urges towards her. Fewer hot baths together, more nights at the movies. Less "snuggling" in the bed at night, more reading a good book. But I do not have to become aloof or neglectful, and I don't have to make her a victim while putting some checks on my desire.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Believe it or not, there is a happy medium, not just opposite ends of the extreme.

We have pretty well reached that point.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

farsidejunky said:


> Believe it or not, there is a happy medium, not just opposite ends of the extreme.
> 
> We have pretty well reached that point.


Correct. In my never humble opinion, too many of the HD people come here looking for a solution that gets them everything they want, with no mind for the cost of what they are asking. If you want your spouse to work this hard to please you, you damned well better be prepared to do some compromising of your own. 

It's not all about you.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Cletus said:


> So don't neglect your spouse.
> 
> I don't, even though I too have strategies for reducing my sexual urges towards her. Fewer hot baths together, more nights at the movies. Less "snuggling" in the bed at night, more reading a good book. But I do not have to become aloof or neglectful, and I don't have to make her a victim while putting some checks on my desire.


You and FJ are not talking about quite the same thing.
'Fewer hot baths together' as a way to stop yourself from thinking too much about intercourse is not the same as, "I will stop doing X until perhaps you give some thought of doing Y".
Unless the phrasing got in the way.


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## Middle of Everything (Feb 19, 2012)

Cletus said:


> So don't neglect your spouse.
> 
> I don't, even though I too have strategies for reducing my sexual urges towards her. Fewer hot baths together, more nights at the movies. Less "snuggling" in the bed at night, more reading a good book. But I do not have to become aloof or neglectful, and I don't have to make her a victim while putting some checks on my desire.





farsidejunky said:


> Believe it or not, there is a happy medium, not just opposite ends of the extreme.
> 
> We have pretty well reached that point.


I really respect both of you as posters and feel for both of you and what I know of your situations.

But how much is being at peace and reaching a happy medium, and how much is being "broken" like a horse. And how much is we are older and our T has slowly decreased over time and our drive has naturally decreased over time?


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> You and FJ are not talking about quite the same thing.
> 'Fewer hot baths together' as a way to stop yourself from thinking too much about intercourse is not the same as, "I will stop doing X until perhaps you give some thought of doing Y".
> Unless the phrasing got in the way.


It's more the (what's the logical term? Contrapositive?). 

If you start doing these things, I'll start considering taking hot baths with you again. It's perhaps a more positive statement of the same logical condition.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Middle of Everything said:


> But how much is being at peace and reaching a happy medium, and how much is being "broken" like a horse. And how much is we are older and our T has slowly decreased over time and our drive has naturally decreased over time?


Yes.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

You stop being partners when you're a month apart and don't really miss her. Maybe the psychologist in me would say that I'm still in a "ding dong ring the bell the witch is gone" phase but in reality it doesn't bother me.

As far as I know she's happy, I'm happy, and hopefully we'll plow thru the interstate paperwork peacefully.

No feelings of "I should have done this earlier" either. Maybe a few months apart will reset both our brains to some resemblance of normalcy, especially hers. 

There's more important things in life.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Cletus said:


> Correct. In my never humble opinion, too many of the HD people come here looking for a solution that gets them everything they want, with no mind for the cost of what they are asking. If you want your spouse to work this hard to please you, you damned well better be prepared to do some compromising of your own.
> 
> It's not all about you.


This assumes those HD people haven't already been compromising and doing everything they possibly can. Certainly some haven't, but sometimes theses supposedly selfish guys don't even start thinking there should be more until after they are already doing everything possible and seeing no movement whatsoever, or even worse, movement in the wrong direction.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Middle of Everything said:


> I really respect both of you as posters and feel for both of you and what I know of your situations.
> 
> But how much is being at peace and reaching a happy medium, and how much is being "broken" like a horse. And how much is we are older and our T has slowly decreased over time and our drive has naturally decreased over time?


I don't feel broken. Nor trapped. That is victim speak, and assumes that one has no agency to enact change. 

Do I sound broken?


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Cletus said:


> It's more the (what's the logical term? Contrapositive?).
> 
> If you start doing these things, I'll start considering taking hot baths with you again. It's perhaps a more positive statement of the same logical condition.


Haha, maybe. But probably more so in your mind. The crucial difference is (sorry to go on about it) that you are not doing something to stop YOU feeling something, FJ's phrasing implies that he is not doing something to get her to change her 'normal' behaviour.
Your wife may feel no pressure whatsoever, if you haven't said WHY you are not having a bath with her! Even though you think that you might be giving her pressure (or hope that she might feel that pressure). She will just think you don't like hot baths! My wife doesn't like hot baths and I don't believe it's because she would otherwise not be able to have uncontrollable hot bath sex with me!
Perhaps passive and active pressurising? Maybe I am just misunderstood the phrasing or how this 'philosophy' is actually applied in real life.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

farsidejunky said:


> I don't feel broken. Nor trapped. That is victim speak, and assumes that one has no agency to enact change.
> 
> Do I sound broken?


You said 'broken' twice...>


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> This assumes those HD people haven't already been compromising and doing everything they possibly can. Certainly some haven't, but sometimes theses supposedly selfish guys don't even start thinking there should be more until after they are already doing everything possible and seeing no movement whatsoever, or even worse, movement in the wrong direction.


No objection. Not every situation is salvageable. My position, after looking back, is that you should avoid such a mismatch altogether if possible, but if you find yourself there anyway, you should probably abandon it early when the leaving is easy. 

Staying is hard work, and should only be undertaken when there is good reason.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Cletus said:


> It's more the (what's the logical term? Contrapositive?).
> 
> If you start doing these things, I'll start considering taking hot baths with you again. It's perhaps a more positive statement of the same logical condition.


This.

"Wife, your actions have made it clear that you are uncomfortable with increasing our sexual frequency, and respect and accept your stance. That said, I will now spend a portion of the energy I was using towards you in pursuit of things that will make me happy."


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Cletus, you reject and insult your mother and father's beliefs? They sacrificed so that you could become an apostate?


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> Haha, maybe. But probably more so in your mind. The crucial difference is (sorry to go on about it) that you are not doing something to stop YOU feeling something, FJ's phrasing implies that he is not doing something to get her to change her 'normal' behaviour.


I don't get the impression that's what he is doing. He would love to see such change, wouldn't turn it away if it happened, but isn't doing anything with any end goal other than to feel better himself.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> This assumes those HD people haven't already been compromising and doing everything they possibly can. Certainly some haven't, but sometimes theses supposedly selfish guys don't even start thinking there should be more until after they are already doing everything possible and seeing no movement whatsoever, or even worse, movement in the wrong direction.


Both examples are anecdotally correct.

Do only that which results in your ability to still like who you see in the mirror.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Anyway, like MEM said (I think?), if it works for you, don't change anything. I was just concerned that one should be mindful of what it might do to you in the process...There's a cost for everything. And we have to weigh up the benefit against it. But to do that properly we have to have the ability to consider ALL the aspects of that cost.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

CatholicDad said:


> Cletus, you reject and insult your mother and father's beliefs? They sacrificed so that you could become an apostate?


Damn straight, and with a clear conscience.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Cletus said:


> I don't get the impression that's what he is doing. He would love to see such change, wouldn't turn it away if it happened, but isn't doing anything with any end goal other than to feel better himself.


Nailed it.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> Anyway, like MEM said (I think?), if it works for you, don't change anything. I was just concerned that one should be mindful of what it might do to you in the process...There's a cost for everything. And we have to weight up the benefit against it. But to do that properly we have to have the ability to consider ALL the aspects of that cost.


Sure. I come from a decidedly Eastern mindset about these things, even though I have no formal connection to those philosophies.

What I want is not the most important thing in the world. Duty to my family, honoring my promises (and sometimes failing, as I am a one-time WS). Being a decent partner and respecting my wife's needs - all of these things play a larger role in my personal self worth evaluation than getting what I want ever will. 

So I can look at myself in the mirror and honestly say that I am meeting my definition of fidelity to myself and to my wife by giving up a portion of what I want.


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## Middle of Everything (Feb 19, 2012)

Cletus said:


> Yes.


Uhhhh... :scratchhead:



farsidejunky said:


> I don't feel broken. Nor trapped. That is victim speak, and assumes that one has no agency to enact change.
> 
> Do I sound broken?


No. And I was hesitant to use that analogy. It just seemed so appropriate. A young bucking bronco "trained" over time to not be that way. To not want sex so much. Not meant as an insult at all.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Middle of Everything said:


> Uhhhh... :scratchhead:


Meaning yes, a little of everything you suggested.


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## Notself (Aug 25, 2017)

CatholicDad said:


> Cletus, you reject and insult your mother and father's beliefs? They sacrificed so that you could become an apostate?


If I recall correctly, you're a convert, so you have zero room to talk about that.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Middle of Everything said:


> Uhhhh... :scratchhead:
> 
> 
> No. And I was hesitant to use that analogy. It just seemed so appropriate. A young bucking bronco "trained" over time to not be that way. To not want sex so much. Not meant as an insult at all.


I didn't take it that way at all. It was an honest question rather than a confrontational one. I like to think I know in my head how posts will be received, and frequently I am wrong in that regard...lol


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Yes
one of the reasons I stay in forums like this is to warn people not to get stuck in this situation. 

Once you have been together for many years it becomes very difficult to leave. This is a situation where patience is NOT a good plan. 

Breaking up with your girlfriend / boyfriend because you aren't sexually compatible is fine. No reasonable person should judge you negatively for that. 

Divorcing your husband / wife of many years because sex is bad brings up all sorts of issues. Why now? Is sex more important than love? Are you just having a midlife crisis? Did you find someone else? Are you looking for someone younger? etc etc. These are not just external things, but things you ask yourself.






Cletus said:


> No objection. Not every situation is salvageable. My position, after looking back, is that you should avoid such a mismatch altogether if possible, but if you find yourself there anyway, you should probably abandon it early when the leaving is easy.
> 
> Staying is hard work, and should only be undertaken when there is good reason.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Agreed. 

Early out is ok. Before kids. 

Abandoning someone late in life - is pretty ugly. 

But In goes on and on about - what if she doesn’t like what you are doing. What if she leaves you. My eyes are rolling here. 

If the conditions for your partner to stay are they get the platinum service level - while you get the crumbs - why would the loss of that be a bad outcome. 





Cletus said:


> No objection. Not every situation is salvageable. My position, after looking back, is that you should avoid such a mismatch altogether if possible, but if you find yourself there anyway, you should probably abandon it early when the leaving is easy.
> 
> Staying is hard work, and should only be undertaken when there is good reason.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> Agreed.
> 
> Early out is ok. Before kids.
> 
> ...


It wouldn't. You misrepresent what I was saying: there is a way to fastforward this process or reverse it completely.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

MEM2020 said:


> If the conditions for your partner to stay are they get the platinum service level - while you get the crumbs - why would the loss of that be a bad outcome.


Which is one of the reasons I'm quick to remind on this thread that I am not in a sexless marriage, I am in a sexually incompatible marriage.

Sexlessness is not the crumbs - it's not even getting an invitation to the table. It's not in general defensible. It is in direct violation of what are pretty much universally accepted as wedding vows. 

It's loss would not often be a bad outcome.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

In,

Let me bracket this for you. 
1. If your situation simply isn’t acceptable - whatever frequency/quality/engagement level is a no go

In my opinion you should either leave or openly outsource. I actually believe you could fix half the sexually broken marriages in the US if the man followed a simple decision tree. Improve himself a bit, sincerely ask for feedback, when feedback is refused and sex continues to be unavailable just open the marriage. A partner who won’t have sex with you but aggressively asserts their sexual ownership of you - DOES NOT LOVE YOU. Good riddance. 

2. If your situation is not unacceptable but it is frustrating and you feel used. 

Here - you do what Far has done. You make the point that everyone needs a certain amount of love. The more each of us gets from a partner, the less we need to provide for ourselves. 

F2 is very needy. As M2 is. But unlike M2, F2 doesn’t seem to get much happiness from doing things for Far. 





inmyprime said:


> It wouldn't. You misunderstand what I was saying: there is a way to fastforward this process or stop it completely in its tracks.


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## Vulcan2013 (Sep 25, 2013)

Cletus said:


> I'm haven't blocked you yet, have I? I might even be touching myself as I'm typing this. You never know.


Best possible response to a shaming tactic...Cletus, for a "slack-jawed yokel" you seem pretty bright.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I don’t think you are getting crumbs. You are getting what C2 is able to give. 

I was referring to IMP’s themes regarding doing less for a partner who is kind of a disappointment to us. 




Cletus said:


> Which is one of the reasons I'm quick to remind on this thread that I am not in a sexless marriage, I am in a sexually incompatible marriage.
> 
> Sexlessness is not the crumbs - it's not even getting an invitation to the table. It's not in general defensible. It is in direct violation of what are pretty much universally accepted as wedding vows.
> 
> It's loss would not often be a bad outcome.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> for some, the issues have been adequately discussed, and each person will decide based on the results how they would adjust.


Another possibility is that one person believes that the issue has been adequately discussed and understood while the other person may not be aware of just how serious the issue is to their spouse.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

An interesting example of how you could have sexual incompatibility. CatholicDad's feelings on sex are self-consistent, but they are very far from the mainstream as few modern people think masturbation is a sin. However he doesn't recognize that his views are far from mainstream and assumes that others share them. 

This is good parallel with some LDs who believe that frequent sex in marriage is not normal, and do not realize that their views are different from the great majority of other peoples' views. 

In both Catholic Dad's case and some LD cases, there is no desire to research what is typical, and if they are exposed to information to use confirmation bias to discredit it. Or alternately to declare the behavior of the substantial majority as morally flawed. 

My wife will go to her grave believing that our sex life is normal. That the frequent sex shown on the web, in movies, in stories, etc is not something that normal people actually do. If she looks hard enough she will find data to confirm her beliefs. 


Its easy to find articles indicating that most women are not having frequent sex or enjoying the sex that they are having. 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jennagoudreau/2011/11/08/women-have-sex-out-of-obligation/#9c47783113ea











CatholicDad said:


> So you're all about being a good husband, but not a good son?
> 
> Or were you simply not strong enough to give up masturbation.
> 
> I suspect the latter.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> Why not though? To me it could be a deal breaker and I left the house maybe once or twice over it. And once I said that I would like to take time apart. *She otherwise had no clue it was that serious.*


This happens all the time.

It happened to me.

When she finally figured out I was serious, things changed.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

MEM2020 said:


> In,
> 
> Let me bracket this for you.
> 1. If your situation simply isn’t acceptable - whatever frequency/quality/engagement level is a no go
> ...


The last part isn't quite right, Mem, although everything else is spot on.

She likes to do things for me as long as she has not over-obligated herself. When over-obligated (which is frequent), my needs are below that of relative strangers.

When all is balanced in her world, she does like to please.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

With respect, I am not sure how applicable this 'bracketing' is in real life.

This is what happened in my marriage at one time: I was not happy with frequency at one point (among other things but frequency was the main sticking point).
Actually lets take it beyond 'frequency' because most men just focus on that and nobody apart from men can relate to this word...

After the kids were born, I moved to the 2nd, actually more like last place in terms of importance in her life. I felt like a human wallet. I would cry myself to sleep because I felt alone and any efforts to find more time together were dismissed. (yes we have cleaner, gardener, I wanted to get babysitter, staff, whatever).

Many arguments didn't go anywhere; my wife has always been better with words and it was just all thrown back at me. I knew this new situation was stressful for her too that's why I was patient for a long time. Eventually I couldn't anymore. Around same time I also found some old messages/emails of her and her 'penpal' where she was emotionally quite open (this is from before we got married and there was no cheating, just emotionally open messages. With me, she didn't use to be quite so open). Anyway, this was the straw and one day I just packed up and left in the middle of the night.
She was and remained a changed person after this. She apparently had not realised how important the need for the connection was for me until I made it clear that this was unacceptable for me. Not with words 'unacceptable', but with actions.

I really don't see what this 'bracketing' of yours would have got me in this situation.
Opening up marriage: that would have been the end of it.

There is a blurred line between no1 and no2. Today something might be acceptable and tomorrow, it might not be anymore.

Also regarding no.2: I am not even sure what you mean by "The more each of us gets from a partner, the less we need to provide for ourselves." The sound of it is nice but providing love for ourselves in no way substitutes the love we want or need from our partner. I don't see how the two correlate with each other. What often actually happens is that the love we miss from our partner, gets replaced with resentment instead, like I wrote before. I am not referring to you or far or cletus but many threads on TAM demonstrate precisely that.
Anyway, I will leave it. There seems to be too much room for misunderstanding as each situation is so individual.




MEM2020 said:


> In,
> 
> Let me bracket this for you.
> 1. If your situation simply isn’t acceptable - whatever frequency/quality/engagement level is a no go
> ...


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I stand corrected.




farsidejunky said:


> The last part isn't quite right, Mem, although everything else is spot on.
> 
> She likes to do things for me as long as she has not over-obligated herself. When over-obligated (which is frequent), my needs are below that of relative strangers.
> 
> When all is balanced in her world, she does like to please.


----------



## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

MEM2020 said:


> I stand corrected.


It's all good, brother. 

I just feel the need to hold her accountable where necessary, and defend her when something is not quite right.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Speaking as a Moderator:

Trolling members is harassment. One more instance will result in a on week time out.


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## Middle of Everything (Feb 19, 2012)

edited to help moderators


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Forgot the important bit:
fast forward to now: the sex is pretty good but the doubts in my mind still linger. I think that with hindsight, I left it too long before addressing the issue in a more radical way.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

The - provider travel -> yields desire = fairly common result

As to you packing up and moving out - it was effective - but afterwards it becomes difficult to know which of your partners sexual behavior is desire driven vs what is self preservation driven. 





inmyprime said:


> Btw speaking of space: going on business trips has been one of the biggest aphrodisiacs in my marriage. I kind of felt insulted about this for a while (because what turns ME on is being close to my partner, not 'the idea' of my partner). But I realise it might be an evolutionary thing: men go out hunting, woman gets all wet from the thought of all the food that's coming her way later....
> Must be that (I hope!). :scratchhead::scratchhead:


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> The - provider travel -> yields desire = fairly common result
> 
> As to you packing up and moving out - it was effective - but afterwards it becomes difficult to know which of your partners sexual behavior is desire driven vs what is self preservation driven.


Yes, *exactly*. But in the end I decided that it shouldn't matter anymore (or i keep telling myself this). I am not going to let myself go round and round in circles forever trying to justify it to myself. I may not like what I find down that rabbit hole anyway. (There never is anything good down there anyway...) In the end, we all make sacrifices one way or another and it's about that balance.
Desire is such a loaded word anyway. Fulfilment is a much better one.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

MEM2020 said:


> I don’t think you are getting crumbs. You are getting what C2 is able to give.


For future reference, her name is Brandine.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

MEM2020 said:


> As to you packing up and moving out - it was effective - but afterwards it becomes difficult to know which of your partners sexual behavior is desire driven vs what is self preservation driven.


I don't think that sexual desire for women is driven by the same factors that drive it in men.

I'm not so sure that the sex you receive when the relationship is new isn't driven by the same factors as the sex you might get after making it clear that she is in danger or losing you.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Buddy,
Agreed. Excitement has to do with uncertainty. But - there really is a difference between - normal course of events type uncertainty and: do what I want or we are done type uncertainty. 

And one of the fun aspects of this site is that there are radically different views of different types of instability. 

My view is that: **** me or I’m gone - raises the question of how much I love you: core you - what you are 
As opposed to loving what you do for me: Laundry, sex, etc. 

Where as openly suggesting outsourcing means - I love you but in this one area - you are falling woefully short and after numerous attempts to resolve this - it still isn’t resolved. So instead of **** canning the whole family, I’m using a work around. 

Now this forces an ill behaved spouse to consider whether or not sex really is important. It truly forces the issue. 

This type of talk is remarkably simple and goes like this: It seems that sex is unimportant, unless that is, I have it with someone else at which point it becomes so important that you end the marriage. 

I’m ok with you leaving me over this - as the alternative is to permit you to assert that the vow to forsake is absolute, while the vow to love - not coincidentally - the first and most important vow - means whatever you want it to. 

FWIW: in Cletus shoes - I might have bailed prior to the first child. But not after that. Not saying I’d be fully satisfied with the mechanics of his sex life. But I would be satisfied knowing that my partner was doing the best they could in an area of life where they simply have some very real limitations. 

And the irony here is that Cletus and I are on opposite sides of a coin. He only gets intercourse. I am going into year 7 without intercourse (M2 has pain down there - so we do other stuff....)




Buddy400 said:


> I don't think that sexual desire for women is driven by the same factors that drive it in men.
> 
> I'm not so sure that the sex you receive when the relationship is new isn't driven by the same factors as the sex you might get after making it clear that she is in danger or losing you.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I understand the outsourcing "threat" but how do you get past the argument that what you want is fundamentally unreasonable?


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## Middle of Everything (Feb 19, 2012)

uhtred said:


> I understand the outsourcing "threat" but how do you get past the argument that what you want is fundamentally unreasonable?


Curious as why the argument is fundamentally unreasonable?


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Because it is not.
Might be unreasonable to ask your current spouse to engage in sex they don't want. But it is not unreasonable to want or ask for what you actually need in order to be happily married.
You are not saying your spouse has to provide the sex. You are saying your spouse can either provide the sex you need to be happy or release you from your vow of fidelity. When they say you vowed to remain faithful for life, reply that they vowed to love you for life, and it is not loving to hold your partner's sexuality hostage. So they are already being unfaithful to their vows. Which in all fairness releases you from yours.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Imagine someone who thinks that in typical marriages sex is something that happens every month or so. Involves a relatively short time engaging in a few standard activities that result in both people getting off. 

That is reasonable to some people. Then there are also some people who think that sex is a usual evening activity every night. Then there are some who think "sex" means missionary, while others think it normally includes a wide range of positions, oral, and occasional use of handcuffs. 

Since the HD person can't force the LD to have sex, you end up with a sex life determined by the LD, where often the LD believes they ARE being completely reasonable. 

Look at the number of posters here who only get sex ever month, or several months, or never. Its easy from that to argue that sex every month or to actually IS normal. 


Despite saying all that, I actually largely support your view - just showing what I've seen as the other side. 





Holdingontoit said:


> Because it is not.
> Might be unreasonable to ask your current spouse to engage in sex they don't want. But it is not unreasonable to want or ask for what you actually need in order to be happily married.
> You are not saying your spouse has to provide the sex. You are saying your spouse can either provide the sex you need to be happy or release you from your vow of fidelity. When they say you vowed to remain faithful for life, reply that they vowed to love you for life, and it is not loving to hold your partner's sexuality hostage. So they are already being unfaithful to their vows. Which in all fairness releases you from yours.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Sex is not the issue. Peace of mind is the issue.

In a few months we'll reassess.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Uhtred,

Honestly - in your shoes - I would have theee simple themes: 
1. This reflexive rejection that happens every single time you initiate - is a no go. It’s like she is punishing you for even asking. That doesn’t mean I’d force a 180 degree change. With us - we got to a place where if I initiated M2 was free to say - tomorrow. But that wasn’t some face saving dodge. That was a commitment.

2. I would pick a frequency and say - this is it - this is the bear minimum times per month - end of the month we aren’t there - don’t need to fight about it - we just won’t play this game with each other any more - I won’t flaunt my extra curricular activities nor will I answer questions about them. 

3. For the most/all the marriage you’ve been absorbing most of the compromise. Seems like a 80-20 or 90-10 split. So the mean spirited comments about not getting a cookie need to stop. 

Newsflash my friend. She IS keenly aware of how important this is to you. Just as she has some top priorities that you don’t share but you fully understand how important they are to her. 

Example: we can’t have guests over unless the house is perfect. Not my priority at all. But I wouldn’t ridicule M2 for being wired that way. Firstly because that would be cruel and secondly because most of my friends wives are the same. 

U2 is aware that you are a man, that men have higher levels of testosterone. That sex is quite important to the average man. 

Her attempts to convince you - she doesn’t understand that - are actually an attempt to convince you that it really isn’t that important to you. 






uhtred said:


> I understand the outsourcing "threat" but how do you get past the argument that what you want is fundamentally unreasonable?


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

MEM2020 said:


> Uhtred,
> 
> Honestly - in your shoes - I would have theee simple themes:
> 1. This reflexive rejection that happens every single time you initiate - is a no go. It’s like she is punishing you for even asking. That doesn’t mean I’d force a 180 degree change. With us - we got to a place where if I initiated M2 was free to say - tomorrow. But that wasn’t some face saving dodge. That was a commitment.
> ...


I don't believe so, Mem. Some people are just incredibly resistant to changing their minds. And the more someone tries to change it, the more they dig their heels in. This is her world view and she's not going to change it.

However, she would have her world view changed for her overnight if say, Uhtred left for another woman and had a great sex life from then on, and then further after the divorce she heard from many other people including friends and men she may eventually date that her world view is very distorted.

The only reason she's been able to maintain her world view is because she has been in this marriage bubble where she has never been truly thrown into reality and only sees this world she has completely controlled. And that world she sees is exactly what she describes as her world view -- sex is something men may want more of but they can live with whatever amount the woman is comfortable with. That's her world.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

MEM2020 said:


> Her attempts to convince you - she doesn’t understand that - are actually an attempt to convince you that it really isn’t that important to you.


Of which your actions in response to this tell your wife it isn't that important to you.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

uhtred said:


> I understand the outsourcing "threat" but how do you get past the argument that what you want is fundamentally unreasonable?


like this: "wife, i dont care if it is reasonable or not. what you are asking of me is unacceptable to me. if what i am asking of you is unacceptable to you, then let me know with your actions over the next few months and i will either start divorce proceedings or i will not". 

never argue what is reasonable or not. its a pointless argument. simply state what is acceptable to you, and then back that stance up with your actions.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

But that's the problem. While sex is important to me, its not important enough to divorce over. 

If your response is that that has removed my power to bargain - you are correct. 




As'laDain said:


> like this: "wife, i dont care if it is reasonable or not. what you are asking of me is unacceptable to me. if what i am asking of you is unacceptable to you, then let me know with your actions over the next few months and i will either start divorce proceedings or i will not".
> 
> never argue what is reasonable or not. its a pointless argument. simply state what is acceptable to you, and then back that stance up with your actions.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

As'laDain said:


> like this: "wife, i dont care if it is reasonable or not. what you are asking of me is unacceptable to me. if what i am asking of you is unacceptable to you, then let me know with your actions over the next few months and i will either start divorce proceedings or i will not".
> 
> 
> 
> never argue what is reasonable or not. its a pointless argument. simply state what is acceptable to you, and then back that stance up with your actions.



It obviously depends on the type of partner but I’m not sure a threat would have worked as well in my situation than just leaving. She would have likely called the bluff or used that time to readjust her thinking. I think it was effective because me leaving came as a shock, like a cold shower, that made her re examine and question her perspective and actions.
But I knew she wouldn’t want to give up the marriage. Some are perhaps hesitant to do this because they are not as sure.
Though to be fair, one can never be sure so you have to be prepared to follow through.
It’s also IMO says everything you need to know if the partner doesn’t give a monkey’s after you leave.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

uhtred said:


> But that's the problem. While sex is important to me, its not important enough to divorce over.
> 
> 
> 
> If your response is that that has removed my power to bargain - you are correct.




Maybe it’s more important than you think; if it gives you reason to contemplate that your wife might be deliberately torturing you (in one of your posts earlier), it would seem pretty important to me to flush it out.
Plus, you never know, it may ascertain your role in the relationship as the dominant partner which some women find arousing...


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

It IS a big problem - the largest single issue in my life for me now. Its just not the only issue. 

I'm quite sure that she doesn't find dominant men arousing - or submissive men, or men at all for that matter. 







inmyprime said:


> Maybe it’s more important than you think; if it gives you reason to contemplate that your wife might be deliberately torturing you (in one of your posts earlier), it would seem pretty important to me to flush it out.
> Plus, you never know, it may ascertain your role in the relationship as the dominant partner which some women find arousing...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Middle of Everything (Feb 19, 2012)

uhtred said:


> It IS a big problem - the largest single issue in my life for me now. Its just not the only issue.
> 
> *I'm quite sure that she doesn't find dominant men arousing - or submissive men, or men at all for that matter.*


Not sure if you've ever said, but do you know why this is for her? And why you think this way?

Any of the "usual" causes?
-low t
-csa
-sexual assault as adult
-super prude parents put beliefs in her head she still cant overcome


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

uhtred said:


> It IS a big problem - the largest single issue in my life for me now. Its just not the only issue.
> 
> I'm quite sure that she doesn't find dominant men arousing - or submissive men, or men at all for that matter.


Not sure what to suggest then. Grow some boobs, see if anything changes?


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Middle of Everything said:


> Not sure if you've ever said, but do you know why this is for her? And why you think this way?
> 
> Any of the "usual" causes?
> -low t
> ...


3 sigma to the left of the mean? Sexual interest is no doubt, like just about every other natural phenomenon, described along some normal distribution, which mathematically requires some people to be well below average with no pathology.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Middle of Everything said:


> uhtred said:
> 
> 
> > It IS a big problem - the largest single issue in my life for me now. Its just not the only issue.
> ...


One more to add to the list: just not attracted to partner....


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## Middle of Everything (Feb 19, 2012)

Cletus said:


> 3 sigma to the left of the mean? Sexual interest is no doubt, like just about every other natural phenomenon, described along some normal distribution, which mathematically requires some people to be well below average with no pathology.


So it just is? Not sure Im following you here.

I get that some people have to be LD for there to be HD. But there has to be a reason. It might not be the LD's fault at all. (for example the likely cause in MOST situations imo, hormones)


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Middle of Everything said:


> So it just is? Not sure Im following you here.
> 
> I get that some people have to be LD for there to be HD. But there has to be a reason. It might not be the LD's fault at all. (for example the likely cause in MOST situations imo, hormones)


Even if, at the peak of my youthful athleticism, I was able to quit my job and focus my entire life on being a sprinter, with unlimited funds, the best doctors and coaching, etc, I would never, ever be able to run anywhere near as fast as Usain Bolt. Even with all that advantage, I wouldn't be able to run as fast as Bolt if he didn't even bother to train!

Yet, there was absolutely nothing physically wrong with me. I'm just not physiologically predisposed to that level of foot speed (and I was no slowpoke, definitely faster than my peers). 

So, yes, it just is.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Middle of Everything said:


> So it just is? Not sure Im following you here.
> 
> I get that some people have to be LD for there to be HD. But there has to be a reason. It might not be the LD's fault at all. (for example the likely cause in MOST situations imo, hormones)


Yes, I'm implying "Just is". If we ever discover all of the underlying factors behind sexual interest we could probably answer your question, but we can't do that now. 

All of the causes you listed above were things that were abnormal that needed fixing to undue the cause. The cause might be no more interesting, and no more in need of fixing, than the causes that make you like Brussels Sprouts but cause me to gag on them.

The underlying sentiment is that the LD partner is broken. Do you ask the same question as to what "causes" HD?


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Livvie said:


> One more to add to the list: just not attracted to partner....


Though not if she doesn't find any potential partner attractive. 

The evolutionary drive for sex in any species applies to the species as a whole, but does not have to apply equally to every individual.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Cletus said:


> Yes, I'm implying "Just is". If we ever discover all of the underlying factors behind sexual interest we could probably answer your question, but we can't do that now.
> 
> All of the causes you listed above were things that were abnormal that needed fixing to undue the cause. The cause might be no more interesting, and no more in need of fixing, than the causes that make you like Brussels Sprouts but cause me to gag on them.
> 
> The underlying sentiment is that the LD partner is broken. Do you ask the same question as to what "causes" HD?


Did you know that if you made yourself eat brussels sprouts every day for three weeks, you would crave for them if you suddenly stopped eating them? Food for thought! (literally).

Two prescriptions: brussels sprouts for the husband and BJs for the wife, daily. For three weeks. Contact the pharmacy if overdose is suspected.
Problem solved.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> Did you know that if you made yourself eat brussels sprouts every day for three weeks, you would crave for them if you suddenly stopped eating them? Food for thought! (literally).


You, sir, are decidedly full of ****. Given the choice of eating Brussels Sprouts for three weeks or a gun, I'd choose the latter.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Cletus said:


> You, sir, are decidedly full of ****. Given the choice of eating Brussels Sprouts for three weeks or a gun, I'd choose the latter.


That's what they thought of Galileo when he discovered Uranus!


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## Middle of Everything (Feb 19, 2012)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Even if, at the peak of my youthful athleticism, I was able to quit my job and focus my entire life on being a sprinter, with unlimited funds, the best doctors and coaching, etc, I would never, ever be able to run anywhere near as fast as Usain Bolt. Even with all that advantage, I wouldn't be able to run as fast as Bolt if he didn't even bother to train!
> 
> Yet, there was absolutely nothing physically wrong with me. I'm just not physiologically predisposed to that level of foot speed (and I was no slowpoke, definitely faster than my peers).
> 
> So, yes, it just is.





Cletus said:


> Yes, I'm implying "Just is". If we ever discover all of the underlying factors behind sexual interest we could probably answer your question, but we can't do that now.
> 
> All of the causes you listed above were things that were abnormal that needed fixing to undue the cause. The cause might be no more interesting, and no more in need of fixing, than the causes that make you like Brussels Sprouts but cause me to gag on them.
> 
> The underlying sentiment is that the LD partner is broken. Do you ask the same question as to what "causes" HD?


I get all that. And I agree that its just the way some people are.

But my original question was addressing something Uhtred posted about his wife not finding any kind of man attractive. That to me is being broken. Thats not being as fast as Usain. Thats not being able to walk. Something is wrong. It might not be her fault, but something is wrong. And yes I think someone could be considered broken if they want sex TOO much and maybe in too extreme ways.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

I remember seeing a documentary on thrill seekers: the Evel Knievals of the world. From extreme sports enthusiasts of all types to high stakes gamblers, it turns out their brains naturally produce less of certain chemicals needed for balance. These high risk activities stimulate the production of those chemicals. The less such chemicals are produced in a particular brain, the more that individual engages in high risk behavior. 

Conversely, some brains produce an abundance of these chemicals. Anything that spurs additional production is most uncomfortable. These people will never go bungee jumping or risk tens of thousands of dollars at a blackjack table. 

My wife, apparently has more than an ample supply of these chemicals. I appear to be a little deficient in that area (although now on the high side of 50, I'm getting more cautious). 

I wonder if there's not a similar dynamic in sexuality. We know that sex spurs certain chemical reactions in the brain. Maybe LDs have enough of this chemical and HDs are lacking. In this sense, it would be us HDs that would be more "broken" than the LDs. We're obviously more "high maintenance" in that area. (as an aside, it seems odd to me that we most often use the term "high maintenance" in association with women, when it's us men who seem, more often than not, to need the most "maintenance" to be happy)


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Yes to what Cletus said -- the answer can be it "just is". 

The problem obviously is not discovering incompatibility early on. That's my regret. I was very young and inexperienced and I thought things would improve. They never did. I did all I could to make that work but it just didn't. The desire was never there and what was there -- wanting to make my husband happy -- wasn't enough. 

Very few people like me "wake up" one day. This is who we are.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Mostly the last. She was raised to believe that sex is something women do *for* men, but probably really shouldn't. Also I think she is innately low desire. 



Middle of Everything said:


> Not sure if you've ever said, but do you know why this is for her? And why you think this way?
> 
> Any of the "usual" causes?
> -low t
> ...


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I've certainly considered that she might be lesbian. No hints of it though. (of course she might hide it well).





inmyprime said:


> Not sure what to suggest then. Grow some boobs, see if anything changes?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Openminded,
Your story helped me triangulate on M2. She is different than you, in that she likes sex. But she has always been willing to accommodate my higher drive. 

This is mainly driven by:
- Her internal definition of what a good wife does
- Her genuine fondness for me
- My reciprocity via the golden rule - that is - I don’t treat her like a hyper-realistic sex doll
- The desire to please - is accepted at face value - and whatever passion appears is accepted without comment or complaint




Openminded said:


> Yes to what Cletus said -- the answer can be it "just is".
> 
> The problem obviously is not discovering incompatibility early on. That's my regret. I was very young and inexperienced and I thought things would improve. They never did. I did all I could to make that work but it just didn't. The desire was never there and what was there -- wanting to make my husband happy -- wasn't enough.
> 
> Very few people like me "wake up" one day. This is who we are.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Possible, but at least in my wife's case if she is sexually attracted to anyone she has hidden it well. (again possible).



Livvie said:


> One more to add to the list: just not attracted to partner....


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

am i the only one who lifted his low drive wife to high drive?


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

As'laDain said:


> am i the only one who lifted his low drive wife to high drive?


I don't know maybe?

Thus far I haven't experienced being with a low sexual drive woman, so that hasn't been an issue for me.

That said I have experienced sexual incompatibility, which I resolved through dumping them.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

As'laDain said:


> am i the only one who lifted his low drive wife to high drive?


No, but most of the ones who succeed stop posting. The ones who stick around are the ones, like me, who failed. So the sample is skewed.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

As'laDain said:


> am i the only one who lifted his low drive wife to high drive?


It could depend on how you word it. Is your W truly HD now, or is it she understand the issues and was/is willing to work on. There is a big difference between the two (unless you are pumping your W with T lol)


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

I think you may be conflating two issues that really don't go together. My counterpoint would be that a person delivering a message to (sharing information and a perspective with) his or her spouse is just that. Guilt is the recipient's emotional reaction to that message and largely beyond the control of the deliverer.

A personal example: during my son's illness and after his passing, my then-wife treated me poorly. While I had to largely accept it while my son was alive (to not add to his burden), I certainly did not after he was gone. So, I did less for her like you noted below. I didn't shirk my duties, but my kid and I did our own thing. This went on until my ex tried to re-engage me in a wifely / partner manner.

Some time after our separation, I learned my ex told the psychologist evaluating the family situation she was miserable during that time. I had caused her misery by having iced her (her viewpoint) during that period.

I can accept that my actions (prioritizing myself and our child and de-prioritizing an unsupportive, selfish spouse) directly led to her profound unhappiness. But I did not (and still do not) feel a speck of guilt over that situation. Any guilt I felt would have said much more about me (that I felt I had acted unreasonably or deprived her of something to which she was entitled) than about her.

Getting back to your example, in a Christian marriage it your responsibility to provide for your spouse's sexual needs. It is also a commonly held viewpoint that masturbation is sinful. So, in your example below, the lower-drive spouse would feel guilty because he or she is knows there is a responsibility to his or her spouse that is going unmet. It is not the message of "we aren't having enough sex and I'm not happy" on it's own that is driving guilt.



MEM2020 said:


> If you tell your partner that religious beliefs prevent you from engaging in solo sex and therefore they are your only sexual outlet and lacking sufficient frequency makes you tense and angry - that is putting a lot of weight on the other person.
> 
> It’s making them directly responsible for how you feel.
> 
> ...


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I remember seeing a documentary on thrill seekers: the Evel Knievals of the world. From extreme sports enthusiasts of all types to high stakes gamblers, it turns out their brains naturally produce less of certain chemicals needed for balance. These high risk activities stimulate the production of those chemicals. The less such chemicals are produced in a particular brain, the more that individual engages in high risk behavior.
> 
> Conversely, some brains produce an abundance of these chemicals. Anything that spurs additional production is most uncomfortable. These people will never go bungee jumping or risk tens of thousands of dollars at a blackjack table.
> 
> My wife, apparently has more than an ample supply of these chemicals. I appear to be a little deficient in that area (although now on the high side of 50, I'm getting more cautious).


Have you tested for them? How? 



Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I wonder if there's not a similar dynamic in sexuality. We know that sex spurs certain chemical reactions in the brain. Maybe LDs have enough of this chemical and HDs are lacking. In this sense, it would be us HDs that would be more "broken" than the LDs. We're obviously more "high maintenance" in that area. (as an aside, it seems odd to me that we most often use the term "high maintenance" in association with women, when it's us men who seem, more often than not, to need the most "maintenance" to be happy)



Evolution would disagree. It obviously favours individuals who **** around, rather than ‘**** around’.
I think high maintenance means trying to maintain something without success: not many men have a clue or understand what it is that women need or want...With men, it’s just sex and food. And they can survive without food.




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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

As'laDain said:


> am i the only one who lifted his low drive wife to high drive?




It very much depends why they were ‘Low Drive’. If it’s because they were lazy, didn’t feel pretty and felt ****ty about themselves it’s one thing. If they were Low Drive because they were born low drive or didn’t find their partner attractive it’s something completely different.

My wife is probably one of the most forthcoming people I know but if she doesn’t feel like having sex for biological reasons, it will feel like rape to her.


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## 2020hindsight (Nov 3, 2015)

Middle of Everything said:


> I get all that. And I agree that its just the way some people are.
> 
> But my original question was addressing something Uhtred posted about his wife not finding any kind of man attractive. That to me is being broken. Thats not being as fast as Usain. Thats not being able to walk. Something is wrong. It might not be her fault, but something is wrong. And yes I think someone could be considered broken if they want sex TOO much and maybe in too extreme ways.


There are some people who do not experience sexual attraction at all. They are not broken. They were born that way. There is nothing about them that medicine or therapy can fix.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

2020hindsight said:


> There are some people who do not experience sexual attraction at all. They are not broken. They were born that way. There is nothing about them that medicine or therapy can fix.


All species exist to make more of themselves. Whatever else we do while we're here is gravy. Our purpose is to perpetuate the species. Humans reproduce sexually. So, yes, there is "something wrong" with a human who doesn't experience sexual attraction. It's abnormal to not want to do what you were literally designed to do. Were those people who don't experience sexual attraction just born that way? Probably. Defects of some sort or other aren't uncommon among all species. Can they be "fixed" by medication and/or therapy? Not currently, but medicine makes advances at pace, so there is hope for the future.


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## 2020hindsight (Nov 3, 2015)

MJJEAN said:


> All species exist to make more of themselves. Whatever else we do while we're here is gravy. Our purpose is to perpetuate the species. Humans reproduce sexually. So, yes, there is "something wrong" with a human who doesn't experience sexual attraction. It's abnormal to not want to do what you were literally designed to do. Were those people who don't experience sexual attraction just born that way? Probably. Defects of some sort or other aren't uncommon among all species. Can they be "fixed" by medication and/or therapy? Not currently, but medicine makes advances at pace, so there is hope for the future.


It's easy to reproduce, even as an asexual. Especially for a woman, sexual desire is not required in order to bear children. So there's no problem making more of ourselves. The reproductive system works even if sexual attraction is not there.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

2020hindsight said:


> It's easy to reproduce, even as an asexual. Especially for a woman, sexual desire is not required in order to bear children. So there's no problem making more of ourselves. The reproductive system works even if sexual attraction is not there.


No, sexual desire isn't required to physically mate and reproduce. However, the vast majority of humans experience sexual desire/sexual attraction because nature instilled such in us to encourage us to mate and reproduce. Bottom line is the very vast majority of humans aren't asexual. Asexuality isn't the norm. It is abnormal for a post-pubescent humans not to experience sexual attraction and desire for sex.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

2020hindsight said:


> It's easy to reproduce, even as an asexual. Especially for a woman, sexual desire is not required in order to bear children. So there's no problem making more of ourselves. The reproductive system works even if sexual attraction is not there.


Precisely. Further, it is a mistake to equate sexual drive in general with the drive to reproduce. You look through this and some other boards, or just talk to women, and you'll see/hear stories of women who were LD/not interested in sex/always had something better to do become very active while trying to conceive, then shut it back down once that objective had been achieved.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

While your logic is fine, your conclusion is questionable. 

And very few Christians in the modern world - consider masturbation to be a real sin. 

You can use guilt as a trigger to focus on passion. But as a trigger to get more sex, good luck. 




DTO said:


> I think you may be conflating two issues that really don't go together. My counterpoint would be that a person delivering a message to (sharing information and a perspective with) his or her spouse is just that. Guilt is the recipient's emotional reaction to that message and largely beyond the control of the deliverer.
> 
> A personal example: during my son's illness and after his passing, my then-wife treated me poorly. While I had to largely accept it while my son was alive (to not add to his burden), I certainly did not after he was gone. So, I did less for her like you noted below. I didn't shirk my duties, but my kid and I did our own thing. This went on until my ex tried to re-engage me in a wifely / partner manner.
> 
> ...


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## 2020hindsight (Nov 3, 2015)

MJJEAN said:


> No, sexual desire isn't required to physically mate and reproduce. However, the vast majority of humans experience sexual desire/sexual attraction because nature instilled such in us to encourage us to mate and reproduce. Bottom line is the very vast majority of humans aren't asexual. Asexuality isn't the norm. It is abnormal for a post-pubescent humans not to experience sexual attraction and desire for sex.


I agree asexuality isn't the norm, but we have over 7 billion people on earth, so 1% of the population being asexual makes the total estimated number of asexual people 70 million. A minority, yes, but not tiny.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

2020hindsight said:


> I agree asexuality isn't the norm, but we have over 7 billion people on earth, so 1% of the population being asexual makes the total estimated number of asexual people 70 million. A minority, yes, but not tiny.


 Lay out 100 pennies. Now separate out 1 penny. 1% is tiny compared to the other 99%.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

MJJEAN said:


> No, sexual desire isn't required to physically mate and reproduce. However, the vast majority of humans experience sexual desire/sexual attraction because nature instilled such in us to encourage us to mate and reproduce. Bottom line is the very vast majority of humans aren't asexual. Asexuality isn't the norm. It is abnormal for a post-pubescent humans not to experience sexual attraction and desire for sex.


Only if sexual attraction is viewed as a binary switch, yes or no proposition.

If it is in fact a continuum, let's assume Gaussian until a better model comes along, then there mathematically _must_ be some living at the extremes who suffer from endless attraction to anything with a pulse, and those who feel nothing at all. They are not abnormal - they are at the tails of the distribution.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

Cletus said:


> Only if sexual attraction is viewed as a binary switch, yes or no proposition.
> 
> If it is in fact a continuum, let's assume Gaussian until a better model comes along, then there mathematically _must_ be some living at the extremes who suffer from endless attraction to anything with a pulse, and those who feel nothing at all. They are not abnormal - they are at the tails of the distribution.


We were speaking of asexuals. Those who claim they have felt no sexual attraction or sexual urges. That is decidedly abnormal. As in, outside the norm.

Using a scale of 1-10, the vast majority are going to be mid-range with some high range and some low range. What we're talking about isn't a 1-10 on the scale, but a 0.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

Cletus said:


> Correct. In my never humble opinion, too many of the HD people come here looking for a solution that gets them everything they want, with no mind for the cost of what they are asking. If you want your spouse to work this hard to please you, you damned well better be prepared to do some compromising of your own.
> 
> 
> 
> It's not all about you.




Hey now, Cletus. For me it’s all about me.

I haven’t been involved in your thread because, well, I have no common ground. But I just thought this was interesting.

I wonder how it differs if a couple irons out sexual expectations before getting married. I spent the few weeks my wife and I dated pretty much just establishing what I expected our sex life to be like. 

Luckily for me it worked out that way, almost exactly as I expected. I have been pretty demanding along the way which might have contributed, but somehow I think it was actually all down to Mary being completely on board. Just lucky.

So why don’t couples spend weeks just establishing exactly what they expect sexually in their marriage?

And if they do, then how would such an understanding be viewed going forward?

For instance, I was blasted for telling Mary of my need to be allowed to perform cunnilingus on her, or my wife, whoever that ended up being. Yet I firmly believe when we were discussing marriage it was imperative I tell her everything I would expect, and give her the chance to say no before we got married.

Certainly my needs were deal breaking, but that’s why I was telling her about my needs.

That whole negotiation was very important to me, and I have never understood why other people don’t seem to do it.

I told Mary a whole laundry list of things, and asked her what she wanted. 

Anyway, I think negotiations about sexual relations in marriage should be a really big huge thing before people get married.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

MJJEAN said:


> We were speaking of asexuals. Those who claim they have felt no sexual attraction or sexual urges. That is decidedly abnormal. As in, outside the norm.
> 
> Using a scale of 1-10, the vast majority are going to be mid-range with some high range and some low range. What we're talking about isn't a 1-10 on the scale, but a 0.


And I'm telling you they are not. I'm not using some artificial scale of 1 to 10. I'm using a distribution with a mean, median, and mode - the best description for a wide range of naturally occurring phenomenon. 98% of the population will lie within 3 standard deviations of average. A full 1% on the left end will have so little sexual attraction as to seem nonexistent. 1% will have so much sexual energy that we will label them in some other equally pejorative way. 

All of them, from top to bottom, are part of the normally distributed (and normal) human experience of sexuality.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

Yes 

1-10 is for jocks rating girls.

It has no place in valid discourse.

What about intelligence? A perfect 10 for everyone over x IQ? Mensa is 10.8+, and they aren’t all that.

My wife is bisexual and we have played the 1-10 game for fun. I rate most women pretty highly. She rates them even higher. There’s no curve in that curve!

1% on a standard normal curve is certainly still normal and acceptable as long as they are functional. 

My wife is out in the 1% range on several metrics.

I am 0.2% on the only metric I care about. 

1-10 is meaningless.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

Let me try again.

Normal defined as the majority. Abnormal defined as outside of that majority. Unless the majority of humans are asexual, asexuals are outside of the norm and therefor abnormal. A minority. Different from the majority.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

So American men are abnormal, and Chinese women are abnormal. But Indian men are normal and Swiss women are normal.

Okay.

“On Liberty” by John Stuart Mill speaks to this, I think.


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## Notself (Aug 25, 2017)

Get this - asexuals apparently have a governing body, and they have come up with a dictionary for people to use when discussing asexuality and asexuals.

Lexicon - AVENwiki

Say what you want about asexuals - they may not love other people, but they sure do love terminology.

Imagine all the subjects that could get cleared up if us heteros also had a decision-making group! Just kidding, it would immediately turn into the same dumpster fire that always occurs when men and women attempt to discuss gender with each other.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

There's another total misconception.

Asexual has no bearing on love.

Agape and Eros are not associated.

Consider your love for your children. I told my wife I would save my children from any life threatening event and let her die. I love my children, and I love my wife.

But I am not going to have sex with my children.

Agape is much stronger than Eros in my opinion. The love of man for God, and God for man. I apply that to the love I have for my children. I cherish that bond above all others. Yes, even my spouse.

I know lots of people disagree with that, and think a spouse should be first, and a child second. Oh well, they aren't me.

The point is, love is not in my genitals. That is just sex.

Love is in my heart.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

WilliamM said:


> Consider your love for your children. I told my wife I would save my children from any life threatening event and let her die.



What???? Why would you let your wife die???? Why not save all of them???? 
I am really not sure you are treating her the best possible way...



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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

WilliamM said:


> The point is, love is not in my genitals. That is just sex.
> 
> 
> 
> Love is in my heart.



That’s true. However I often find my heart located near the genitals.

But yes, I think the vocabulary should differentiate between spousal live and family type of love. Those are very different.




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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

There are many situations were the option is to save only one. When studying philosophy such issues are often tackled, for instance. The burning building, the overturned boat. I did not enjoy philosophy, overall, but I found it necessary. And some ideas were fascinating, and even useful.

And in reality there are many situations where it is in fact only possible to save one person.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

inmyprime said:


> That’s true. However I often find my heart located near the genitals.
> 
> But yes, I think the vocabulary should differentiate between spousal live and family type of love. Those are very different.
> 
> ...


The vocabulary does exist, we just seldom use it. I grow rusty myself. It has been over 35 years since I have taken any classes. I had only focused on the meaning of truth, anyway. I needed to re-learn what is truth, to find a way to accept living with Mary.

For while I bluster mightily about divorce for others on occasion, I never considered it for myself.

When I got married I thought of truth as a holy grail, and always saying what is true was a part of that. Since my wife can't, it was very hard on my internalized value systems. Error, does not compute.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

WilliamM said:


> There are many situations were the option is to save only one. When studying philosophy such issues are often tackled, for instance. The burning building, the overturned boat. I did not enjoy philosophy, overall, but I found it necessary. And some ideas were fascinating, and even useful.
> 
> 
> 
> And in reality there are many situations where it is in fact only possible to save one person.



Yes I know.  You didn’t say if you could only save one  
But why on Earth would you say that to your wife in any case, even if you thought so?

Also: when do you ever have to deal with a Sophie’s Choice of a situation in every day life? This is maybe an interesting exercise in philosophy but is hardly ever applicable.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

Actually, we did.

We were with relatives on their boat, peacefully lolling by the coast, when the idiot owner decided to go racing out to the middle of the lake. No life vests. And then we hit choppy water, and were getting bounced around.

I assured my wife I would save our son, and she could just drown.

But as for why I would tell my wife, why not. I feel free to tell her anything. And I mean anything. I would never hesitate to share anything with her. She worked with me through every one of the philosophy conundrums I had to solve, work on solving, consider, in class. I was taking all that garbage because of her. Which I certainly reminded her of often.

As I grew happier with continuing with our reconciliation I had no problem ever discussing any issue with my wife. She reads everything I write on here, for instance. I discuss a great deal more with her than I ever discuss with anyone else. She is my closest friend and total confidant.


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## LeananSidhe (Feb 6, 2018)

Windwalker said:


> I also have been on the other end of things. I knew my wife was pretty high drive when we got together. At times I would have to tell her that I just needed a break. However, that all ended the day she went on the Depo shot. The doctor didn't bother to tell her about the side effects of the Depo BC. It took a high drive woman and made her a absolutely NO Drive woman. I mean no drive. It took me 5 years to figure out what was causing the issues. When she come home one day and told me she had to go on calcium and iron supplements because of the Depo shot. This got me to wondering and I began to do research. Sure enough, one of the side effects was an extreme loss of drive. Some doctors just do not give a damn and will just push whatever drug is convenient for them. It took another 5 years to get her to change her BC method. It caused a multitude of problems. It also prompted me to get a vasectomy. Enough of the poison already.


I know this comment is over a month old but it just hit so close to home for me. This will be long so feel free to skip. 
My husband and I got married young and have been married for almost 15 years. When we first started having sex (we were friends with benefits for a little while) I was all for it. Loved it. I remember being at work and thinking about him coming over that night and I’d instantly get so turned on I couldn’t think straight. I was a “good Mormon girl” so every time it happened was “the last time”. I was always telling him that we had to stop but at the same time I was burning for him. 
We got married a couple years later and it was great. We had sex all the time. We spent our weekends naked. I’m not kidding. I’d cook breakfast naked and we’d eat dinner naked.
After about 4 years of marriage I got pregnant. Sex slowed down a little during pregnancy because I felt uncomfortable and also scared (we had fertility problems). After baby was born I was put on birth control pills for the first time. My sex drive went down. We attributed it to having a baby and being tired (I was exhausted and falling asleep at 8pm every night). We were still having sex about 2-4 times a week at that point. 
A couple years later we had baby #2. Afterwards I went back on birth control pills. Sex drive went even lower. We again thought it must be because I was a mother and more tired and stressed. Sex went down to 1-2 times a week. At this point my husband did start getting frustrated with me. I was just always so exhausted. I went on antidepressants and they just made things worse (I gained weight and that made me feel awful). I tried different herbal “remedies” that were awful and didn’t help. 
Two years ago I got pregnant for the 3rd time. Breastfeeding had not worked out well with the first 2 and I wondered if my birth control pills had been to blame so I didn’t start them this time. I couldn’t even wait the entire 6 weeks after having the baby before I wanted sex. I was wanting it all the time. My husband could barely keep up but was amazed and happy that I suddenly was interested again. 
After 8 months we got nervous about another pregnancy happening so I decided to go back on birth control. My doctor recommended the depo shot. My sex drive completely went away. If my husband so much as touched my shoulder I would tense up. It was strange because I could remember liking sex at one time but the thought of it was so awful to me that I couldn’t imagine why I had ever liked it so much. I rolled my eyes at sex scenes on tv because I thought sex could never be that good (even though I sort of remembered loving it years ago). I still forced myself to do it a few times a month but I wanted to scream “hurry up!!!” I remember my husband going down on me and I was making myself moan but in reality I was clenching my jaw and digging my nails into my palms and fighting the urge to actually hit him and make him stop. It was a horrible feeling because I knew it wasn’t normal and I knew it would kill him to know how I was feeling. I felt so guilty. I felt broken. He’s amazing and was always so sweet to me during this. We were still very close and had a good relationship except for sex. Basically best friends without many benefits. (Except that we were still having sex 2-4 times a month and I didn’t always hate it. Most times I did eventually come around to enjoying myself somewhat but I never actually wanted sex.)
Finally I started digging around on the internet and found out about the side effects to the shot and hormonal birth control in general. I doubted that it would help but I was desperate so I went off birth control. I had been on the shot for about a year. A few months after discontinuing it my husband and I were having sex and realized (tmi sorry) that for the first time in a year I was actually wet. 
Slowly my drive has been coming back. It’s been 7 months since I stopped birth control and I’d say it’s finally back to where it was before we had kids. We’ve had sex 5 times in the last 4 days. I promised my husband that I’d give him a break tonight since we woke up at 4:30 this morning to have sex. 
It’s funny how different I feel. I have more energy and I’m laughing more. I am much more affectionate with my husband. I care more about how I look. I want to look and act sexy for him. I feel like I was sleeping and I’m finally awake. Just this morning I was getting dressed and thought “Why the **** do I have these ugly granny panties?!” And then went out and bought all new sexy ones. Lol. 

I’m honestly extremely thankful that my husband never found this forum (he’s not a forum guy). It hurts to think of the advice he would have gotten.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

One of the pieces of advice he would have gotten would have been to consider what drugs you were taking, including the type of birth control you were using. To think about your usage patterns compared to your sex drive patterns.

Another piece of advice would have been to read all the advice and just use what he thinks sounds reasonable and useful to him, and ignore the rest.

I am very glad you found what was bothering you.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

inmyprime said:


> Yes I know.  You didn’t say if you could only save one
> But why on Earth would you say that to your wife in any case, even if you thought so?
> 
> Also: when do you ever have to deal with a Sophie’s Choice of a situation in every day life? This is maybe an interesting exercise in philosophy but is hardly ever applicable.
> ...


And yes, I forgot that part of the problem!

It has been a few years.

This board is about the only place where I get feedback. While I discuss things with my wife, you can imagine she doesn't provide much feedback since she has that problem of hers. She does give me some really good input sometimes though. 

Once she said, in response to something I said, "That's just stupid."

I said I never say anything stupid. She just laughed.

Then she smiled and said, "What about I do?"

I was speechless. She doubled over laughing. She still laughs about that, over 20 years later.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

WilliamM said:


> Actually, we did.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I don't know, it's just that telling my wife that if push comes to shove I would smash her brain open with a sledge hummer, if I really had to, -

that wouldn't really make for a particularly entertaining afterdinner conversation.



So...I still am not certain why you ordered your wife to drown. Sorry, maybe I am being thick here. Did you all fall overboard and did nobody apart from you know how to swim?

It's not about conundrums, more about common courtesy. These conundrums are not usually discussed explicitly for a reason: the discussion itself may be so insensitive that it would cause more harm than the actual event, when it comes to it (_*should*_ it ever come to it).


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

WilliamM said:


> One of the pieces of advice he would have gotten would have been to consider what drugs you were taking, including the type of birth control you were using. To think about your usage patterns compared to your sex drive patterns.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I’m not so sure actually. The main theme is usually either accept that ‘bait and switch’ happens or accept the newfound HD/LD dynamic or divorce o find someone who enjoys sex. That’s the advice I read all the time on here for men who post that their wife stopped wanting to have sex with them.
I think considering side effects of BC is actually quite important. 
It’s quite ironic actually: you are supposed to take pill/shot to have more sex...but end up despising it.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

In the boat was only the three of us, and two others. The owner was drunk off his ass, his wife I do not know about. I suspect she was three sheets to the wind, as well. They are my wife's relatives, and I have no idea if they even knew how to swim. I do know my 2 year old could not swim. I do know my wife could not make it back to shore alone. I do know I had a life saving certificate. I was sure I could save one person.

I would save my son.

My wife's response was, "Thank you."

We aren't at all reserved with each other.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

Where did Cletus go?

Sort of like Where's Waldo.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

WilliamM said:


> Where did Cletus go?
> 
> 
> 
> Sort of like Where's Waldo.




He must be ‘surviving’ 


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

WilliamM said:


> <snip>
> 
> We aren't at all reserved with each other.
> 
> <snip>


This isn't actually true. I just never do the things I am not supposed to any more.

I have chased Mary away now, so I can mention some things.

She is triggered by these things:

If I raise my voice she will cry.
If I make any derogatory remark, such as that was stupid, about her or anything she says, she will stop and say I shouldn't say that, and wait for me to apologize, and I must give her lots of hugs and kisses.
If I make fun of her other than just in a very light loving teasing way she is badly hurt. One word followed by positive praise and hugs and kisses is okay, any more words, or forgetting the praise or hugs or kisses and she is hurt badly.

One cardinal rule is about something that made her explode, triggered her like a bomb. I wondered to the air one day if her masochism and love of being tied down might be the result of the abuse she suffered as a child. She was furious. She made appointments with her shrink for both of us, individually. Mary wouldn't talk to me. She had her shrink tell me I made a big mistake. He scolded me, on my time mind you, about making assumptions. He talked about how some masochists have not been abused, and most abuse victims are not masochists. The same applies to those who find bondage exciting. He extolled to me the worthlessness of my attempts. He told me how ignorant I was.

After the appointment everything was fine and back to normal. But let me tell you I never, and I mean never, will suggest any connections again. Or attempt any armchair psychoanalysis.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

WilliamM said:


> This isn't actually true. I just never do the things I am not supposed to any more.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Your wife sounds somewhat child-like from your descriptions. Or that parts of her possibly never really matured.
I thought I was the one who mentioned that connection between masochism and abuse...
My wife has similar tendencies but she was not abused physically (as far as I know). She was perhaps emotionally abused by a sibling.



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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

So says the man who would have passed on marrying his wife - sans a HIGH, and very precisely defined level of sexual compatibility.




WilliamM said:


> There's another total misconception.
> 
> Asexual has no bearing on love.
> 
> ...


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

Mary is a CSA survivor. And was brutally physically abused.

I will not venture to analyze her.

She is extremely intelligent. No one could live with me who wasn't. She is extremely stubborn, which is a plus when dealing with me.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

MEM2020 said:


> So says the man who would have passed on marrying his wife - sans a HIGH, and very precisely defined level of sexual compatibility.


For sure!

I wanted it all!!!

Sex is just sex, but it's great fun. I knew other people had a lot of problems with it. I did everything I could think of to make sure I had as few problems with it as possible.

When looking for a wife there is a whole world of potential mates out there. There is never a reason to settle.


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## LeananSidhe (Feb 6, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> I’m not so sure actually. The main theme is usually either accept that ‘bait and switch’ happens or accept the newfound HD/LD dynamic or divorce o find someone who enjoys sex. That’s the advice I read all the time on here for men who post that their wife stopped wanting to have sex with them.
> I think considering side effect BC is actually quite important.
> It’s quite ironic actually: you are supposed to take pill/shot to have more sex...but end up despising it.
> 
> ...


Exactly. I haven’t been here long (less than a week) but I’ve been reading through the posts and I would say 90% of the “advice” would not have been friendly towards me. I would have been accused of “bait and switch”, being LD, a cold fish, and possibly cheating. My husband would have been told to give me ultimatums or “detach” from me. It’s honestly a pretty upsetting to think about. 
I mean, hopefully my husband would have been level headed and fair enough to mention that I was trying to compromise and wanting to make things better too but emotions run high here so who knows. 

I don’t think enough people consider birth control as a source of lowered sex drive. It took us 8 years and 3 kids to realize the connection. Part of the problem (I think) is that society jokes about sex going away after marriage and kids. I remember one day (before kids) my husband and I were out at a big outdoor event. He said something to me and I laughed and grabbed him and kissed him. A man yelled “That **** will stop once you get married!” My husband yelled back “We are married!” The man yelled “You must be newlyweds! Wait until after it’s been a year!” And my husband yelled “It’s already been 3 years!” And then man yelled “Well then just wait until you have kids!” At that point he won because we didn’t have kids so we just rolled our eyes and continued on. The “joke” is always that sex stops after marriage and/or kids. So when things started going downhill for us after we had our first child, we didn’t stop and think “what caused this”, we thought “oh, I guess everyone was right”. We thought it was just from exhaustion and stress (2 very real feelings after having kids). It wasn’t until after I had our 3rd child and I took a break from birth control that I started seeing the connection. 

I’m not saying that “bait and switch” never happens (although I think it’s probably extremely rare) and I definitely know that some women can just be very LD....but it’s not always the case and I wish that both sides would show a little understanding towards each other and work together to find out what’s going on instead of these weird power struggles that I keep reading about.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

WilliamM said:


> Where did Cletus go?
> 
> Sort of like Where's Waldo.


Other than off tomorrow to Germany for a business trip, nowhere. Did I miss something?


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

It's your thread, and I just like to think we are doing justice in your eyes.


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## Machjo (Feb 2, 2018)

My wife is into mostly vanilla sex whereas I used to have compulsive masochistic submission fantasies and still have submissive fantasies today. We have made it work though. When we have sex, it's mostly vanilla. Outside of sex, I often engage in chastity play with myself and sometimes but rarely with her. It's a blessing in disguise though since if she catered to my every fantasy, it would bore me sooner or later and I'd soon need to look for something even more extreme. By her showing only passive interest in it, I find it exciting whenever she does choose to participate since it would have been so long since the last time so it's always new again.

The contrast between her desire for vanilla sex and my desire for more role play forces me to extend the role play outside of the bedroom into cooking, cleaning, and sometimes in the bedroom giving her a massage, embracing, kissing her feet, rear, etc. She just sees it as cooking and cleaning whereas I see it as foreplay.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

inmyprime said:


> Your wife sounds somewhat child-like from your descriptions. Or that parts of her possibly never really matured.
> I thought I was the one who mentioned that connection between masochism and abuse...
> My wife has similar tendencies but she was not abused physically (as far as I know). She was perhaps emotionally abused by a sibling.
> 
> ...


That incident where I triggered her occurred in 1985 or '86. Since then I ignore any suggestions about causality regarding her masochism.

As a side note, true masochism is reported by various studies to be 2 to 4 percent of the general population. 

Mary says having me as her husband is the best thing for her because she knows I won't hurt her too much.


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## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

LeananSidhe said:


> I know this comment is over a month old but it just hit so close to home for me. This will be long so feel free to skip.
> My husband and I got married young and have been married for almost 15 years. When we first started having sex (we were friends with benefits for a little while) I was all for it. Loved it. I remember being at work and thinking about him coming over that night and I’d instantly get so turned on I couldn’t think straight. I was a “good Mormon girl” so every time it happened was “the last time”. I was always telling him that we had to stop but at the same time I was burning for him.
> We got married a couple years later and it was great. We had sex all the time. We spent our weekends naked. I’m not kidding. I’d cook breakfast naked and we’d eat dinner naked.
> After about 4 years of marriage I got pregnant. Sex slowed down a little during pregnancy because I felt uncomfortable and also scared (we had fertility problems). After baby was born I was put on birth control pills for the first time. My sex drive went down. We attributed it to having a baby and being tired (I was exhausted and falling asleep at 8pm every night). We were still having sex about 2-4 times a week at that point.
> ...


First, although it's brings up a lot of bad memories, thank you for your story.

Second, I'm very glad you were able to find a solution to the issues.

Third, I'm very glad that you were able to find a resolution so quick and that you took the initiative to look into it yourself. You really should be commended for that. 

I only wish that my wife had taken that initiative. However, our story is not quite as pleasant (I say that, tongue firmly in cheek.) Our marriage really has been forever changed because of it. It will never be the potential it had. Don't get me wrong, I played a massive part in the disfunction and have not been the best husband on the planet. I do own my **** on my side of the street. 10 years being married to, what felt like a zombie, takes a hell of a toll on a marriage. A lucky break found me working on the road, and I jumped all over it. Partially to get away from the disfunction at home and partially to try and keep my sanity and marriage. This June will be 20 years. To be totally honest, I have no intention of celebrating. I'm hoping for a total reset. Just have to see what happens.

*"If my husband so much as touched my shoulder I would tense up. It was strange because I could remember liking sex at one time but the thought of it was so awful to me that I couldn’t imagine why I had ever liked it so much. I rolled my eyes at sex scenes on tv because I thought sex could never be that good (even though I sort of remembered loving it years ago). I still forced myself to do it a few times a month but I wanted to scream “hurry up!!!” I remember my husband going down on me and I was making myself moan but in reality I was clenching my jaw and digging my nails into my palms and fighting the urge to actually hit him and make him stop. It was a horrible feeling because I knew it wasn’t normal and I knew it would kill him to know how I was feeling"*

I do wish that if these were the feeling rolling around in my wife's head, that she would have told me. In hindsight and further introspection, I have a firm belief that it was very very close, if not worse. I however was a strange combination of stubborn, deluded, and just plain ignorant. Had I known, I would have divorced her to set her free and gotten rid of her burden. I honestly believe for a long time she hated my guts. We were not friends, let alone best friends. There certainly were no benefits for either party. 

My wife is the most beautiful woman I have ever known, both inside and out. I have loved her so much it hurt, although it didn't always show. Although the first statement is still true to this day, the second statement is not, and realistically never will be again. 

Having a few issues here of late. She cut her hair off really short (less than shoulder length) and it's really affecting my attraction to her. I gently suggested that I wasn't into boys, but at the end of the day, it's her hair. When I first saw her on my home trip last weekend, the attraction just kind of bottomed out. She cut it really short once before and it killed the attraction then as well. Thankfully, my back has been out for about the last 5-6 weeks, so I wasn't expected to have to perform. Think I will just go to my next project rather than stop by the house. Hopefully it will grow back quickly. 

I'm sorry you feel glad that your husband did not find TAM. I myself wish I had found it sooner. At one time, this place was pretty consistent about suggesting BC as an issue. Maybe my perception is off, but it doesn't seem as quick to suggest that as it use to.

Regardless, thank you for your story.


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## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

MEM2020 said:


> So says the man who would have passed on marrying his wife - sans a HIGH, and very precisely defined level of sexual compatibility.


Devils advocate :

I dare say this part of the forum would be a fraction of its size if people would take that stance more often.

I don't often agree with William. I do however, commend him on knowing his deal breakers. 

A marriage for the sake of marriage and the sake of companionship, is not much of a marriage.

Just my lowly opinion.


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## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

LeananSidhe said:


> I mean, hopefully my husband would have been level headed and fair enough to mention that I was trying to compromise and wanting to make things better too but emotions run high here so who knows.
> 
> I’m not saying that “bait and switch” never happens (although I think it’s probably extremely rare) and I definitely know that some women can just be very LD....but it’s not always the case and I wish that both sides would show a little understanding towards each other and work together to find out what’s going on instead of these weird power struggles that I keep reading about.


Food for thought:

Would your husband been as level headed after 2 years?
What about 5? What about 10? Does the first part of my comment begat the second part of yours? 

As for the second part of your comment. I'm not sure that it's extremely rare. It may well indeed be rare, but maybe not extremely rare. Actual LD folks are quite common, and no, there's not a single thing wrong with them. It's the fact that a couple does not do the due diligence to talk about drive levels and expectations that causes most problems.

Work together to find out what's going on? While that's certainly a novel idea, it kind of suggests that, that hasn't been tried, or at a minimum, offered in most cases.

Not being snarky, just playing devils advocate here.


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## LeananSidhe (Feb 6, 2018)

Windwalker said:


> LeananSidhe said:
> 
> 
> > I know this comment is over a month old but it just hit so close to home for me. This will be long so feel free to skip.
> ...



I’m really sorry that things worked out so differently for you. I wish I knew exactly what it was that made things easier for us. Maybe it was me, maybe it was my husband, probably it was both of us. I have no idea where we would have ended up if I wouldn’t have realized I needed to stop the depo shot. I know it wouldn’t have been good though. I think I would have eventually refused sex. Not because I wanted to be selfish or controlling but because it literally felt like torture some nights. I still loved him through all of it and I still wanted to protect his feelings but I feel like it wouldn’t have been enough eventually. I wouldn’t have been able to live like that much longer. I can’t believe how angry I would feel at him when he’d be trying his best to please me. I’d have to take deep breaths to stop myself from punching him. 
I did eventually tell my husband about the feelings I had but not until after things started getting better. It did hurt him but luckily I was able to let him see that I no longer felt that way. He made me promise that I would stop him and let him know if I ever had those feelings again....I hope I never have to keep that promise. 
This June will be 15 years for us.

I’m glad that I found TAM... I enjoy being able to be this open about sex and hearing different perspectives. Especially men’s perspectives. 
Like I said, I’ve only been here a short time but I feel like a lot of the “advice” I’ve seen just seems so bitter. Yours was the first post I’ve seen mentioning BC. If my husband would have followed some of the advice I’ve seen it would have probably ruined us. I don’t know...maybe I’m just reading the wrong posts.


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## LeananSidhe (Feb 6, 2018)

Windwalker said:


> LeananSidhe said:
> 
> 
> > I mean, hopefully my husband would have been level headed and fair enough to mention that I was trying to compromise and wanting to make things better too but emotions run high here so who knows.
> ...


I wouldn’t expect my husband to be completely level headed after many years. We were still having sex 2-3 times a week up until the year I was on the depo shot so it was only a year when things got really bad (by “really bad” I mean sex was 2-4 times a month which I’m learning isn’t as bad as it could be). I definitely would expect him to give me the benefit of doubt after only a year (especially since the previous years were much better) but I know eventually he’d become less supportive. 

I wasn’t saying that I thought LD was extremely rare. I don’t even think LD is rare. I was saying that I think true “bait and switch” is rare. I don’t believe that there are tons of LD women out there who pretend to be these sex crazy porn stars for years of dating and engagement and then as soon as it’s official they say “haha sucker!” Again, not saying it doesn’t ever happen but I don’t think it’s happening as much as I’ve seen it brought up here. 
I have many unhappy women friends. They complain about “bait and switch” too. They had these wonderful boyfriends who spent time with them and were thoughtful and sweet and made them feel special and sexy....then they got married and suddenly their new husband stayed out hunting all day or hanging out with his buddies while the wife stayed home with the kids all day and then he expected her to spread her legs when he got home. I heard it all the time. “You’re so lucky. My husband quit doing all that after we got married.” Before I’m crusified by all the menfolk, I don’t believe that all men do this (mine obviously did not). Just using an example that I’ve heard over and over. I think that it’s normally (but not always) faults in both sides of the marriage that slowly causes couples to resent each other for their own versions of “bait and switch”.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

And I do think I have often seen the suggestion to look at prescription drugs in use as a potential culprit. I remember several instances where that was suggested, anyway.

I wouldn't try to put a number on it.


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## Handy (Jul 23, 2017)

LeananSidhe, I happy to hear you discovered the LD problem. 

Most men are told to stay out of the W's medications because men are not women and only women should suggest medication changes, especially if it is something she puts in her body. I am just point out why some men don't get too involved in BC topics.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Windwalker,

My comment was a response to William saying that sexual love wasn’t as strong as non sexual love. Which I sort of agree with - so I was kind of just teasing him a bit since he said that right after conditioning his marriage on a healthy sex life. 

As far as his expectation setting with W2, I did something similar with M2 and agree that people need to be very clear about their priorities before marriage. 

As far as this forum goes, I believe that William represents a near perfect example of:
- unabashedly stating his needs before marriage 
- doing what was needed in the marriage, to sustain passion

We frequently see the opposite end of the spectrum on here, which is not - entering into marriage blindly. But rather entering into marriage with incontrovertible evidence that your partner is not that attracted to you/into sex and you are experiencing a steadily worsening sex life. The best examples of that are when people post honestly that, the following happened as they climbed the staircase of commitment:
- Got engaged - sex life declined
- Got married - it got even worse - talked about it and nothing improved 
- Had their first child - still worse
- Had their last child - sexless marriage 

Those folks show up here and blame their spouse. I don’t think their spouses are to blame. 

I DO feel bad for folks who really do seem to have a great sex life until they have a child. That is really tough. That said, if you really are a good partner and it’s obvious you aren’t going to tolerate this - it is fairly rare. 




Windwalker said:


> Devils advocate :
> 
> I dare say this part of the forum would be a fraction of its size if people would take that stance more often.
> 
> ...


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## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

LeananSidhe said:


> I’m really sorry that things worked out so differently for you. I wish I knew exactly what it was that made things easier for us. Maybe it was me, maybe it was my husband, probably it was both of us. I have no idea where we would have ended up if I wouldn’t have realized I needed to stop the depo shot. I know it wouldn’t have been good though. I think I would have eventually refused sex. Not because I wanted to be selfish or controlling but because it literally felt like torture some nights. I still loved him through all of it and I still wanted to protect his feelings but I feel like it wouldn’t have been enough eventually. I wouldn’t have been able to live like that much longer. I can’t believe how angry I would feel at him when he’d be trying his best to please me. I’d have to take deep breaths to stop myself from punching him.
> I did eventually tell my husband about the feelings I had but not until after things started getting better. It did hurt him but luckily I was able to let him see that I no longer felt that way. He made me promise that I would stop him and let him know if I ever had those feelings again....I hope I never have to keep that promise.
> This June will be 15 years for us.
> 
> ...


Let me give you a hint. 

*"A couple years later we had baby #2. Afterwards I went back on birth control pills. Sex drive went even lower. We again thought it must be because I was a mother and more tired and stressed. Sex went down to 1-2 times a week. At this point my husband did start getting frustrated. "*

Your husband did start to get FRUSTRATED. Now add a year or so of hate sex to the equation. (as in, God I hate sex!) His frustration was probably through the roof.

You fixed the problem. You took the initiative. You did the research. Sounds like you wanted to fix the frustration arguably more than he did. You at the very least put the puzzle together.

You never had to say a word. He knew something was up, he just couldn't put his finger on it. He was telling himself we are just in a bad spot, all the while wondering what the **** was wrong with him. BTDT, got the shirt, don't want it.

I never got any information from my wife on what was going through her head. It doesn't matter now anyways. I do know that I will never go through it again though. It's just not worth it to me. I have lived a very rough life and had to fight for every single thing I have on this planet. Nothing has been has hard as having to accept that the one person you cherish and hold dear hates you with every once of their being. I truly believe that drug made her a completely different person.

It's pretty simple really. She broke me. She pushed me to my limit and kept going. I was dumbfounded the first 5 years she was in the shot. Once I finally put 2+2 together, I spent the next 5 begging, pleading and demanding that she go to the doctor and get on something else, just do something. She fought me the whole way. One day I just snapped. I had had enough. I was about a month into a new job and work life was really good. I was making killer money. I was getting along great with my boys. But we were still drowning in the same BS for the last 10 years. We talked on a daily basis, but it was small talk and general BS. She got snappy with me one night and that was the last straw.

The next morning I sent her a text message.
"I love you. I have loved you so much it has hurt at times. I know that my love has not always shown through, and for that I'm sorry. I fully accept all the bad I have caused to happen in the marriage and I am so very sorry. I'm tired though. I'm tired of fighting. I'm tired of the bickering. I'm tired of all the BS. I love you, but I don't like myself when I'm around you, and that's a very disturbing thought to have to reconcile. We practically life totally separate lives. I do all my own cleaning, cooking, ect. You do the same on your end. You don't need me/I don't need you. How do we work past that? I'm not sure we can. I love you, but I don't like myself when I'm around you, and I can't stand feeling like that anymore. Nothing will change,im just not coming home. My checks will still going in the bank and you will still pay the household bills and buy groceries and all that jazz. I'm just not coming home. I will notify you when I come to get my boys to visit. Past that, you're free. I wish you the best."

We didn't talk for over a month, and then it was sporadic. I did not go home for 6 months. We are still married, but it took a min. All it would have taken was for her to get off her ass and get to the doctor, before I snapped. Instead, all I got was excuses.

Your perception is not that far off in my opinion. Although, I joined in 2014, I lurked for a few years before that, early 2012 maybe. TAM has always had its share of bitterness, but it's been a good place to me for the most part. I do think that the bitterness is a little more out front here of late, but there are many good posters who give solid advise, with a wide range of perspectives. You just have to take what's useful and discard the rest.

Sorry for the book, but thanks as well. That's the most that I have ever posted about my story.


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## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

MEM2020 said:


> Windwalker,
> 
> My comment was a response to William saying that sexual love wasn’t as strong as non sexual love. Which I sort of agree with - so I was kind of just teasing him a bit since he said that right after conditioning his marriage on a healthy sex life.
> 
> ...


Mem,

Fair enough, I took it the wrong way. I have to admit it struck me as strange knowing your posts.

Damn it man, even I could be wrong once!
>


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## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

MEM2020 said:


> Windwalker,
> 
> My comment was a response to William saying that sexual love wasn’t as strong as non sexual love. Which I sort of agree with - so I was kind of just teasing him a bit since he said that right after conditioning his marriage on a healthy sex life.
> 
> ...


Double post, sorry.
Solid points though.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

You weren’t wrong. My post was very ambiguous. My bad. Not yours. 




Windwalker said:


> Mem,
> 
> Fair enough, I took it the wrong way. I have to admit it struck me as strange knowing your posts.
> 
> ...


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## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

MEM2020 said:


> You weren’t wrong. My post was very ambiguous. My bad. Not yours.


You ambiguous? HA!

Half of your posts come off as a twisted cross between Confucius and The Riddler. I do however understand why.

That is also said with a high regard.


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## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

LeananSidhe said:


> I wouldn’t expect my husband to be completely level headed after many years. We were still having sex 2-3 times a week up until the year I was on the depo shot so it was only a year when things got really bad (by “really bad” I mean sex was 2-4 times a month which I’m learning isn’t as bad as it could be). I definitely would expect him to give me the benefit of doubt after only a year (especially since the previous years were much better) but I know eventually he’d become less supportive.
> 
> I wasn’t saying that I thought LD was extremely rare. I don’t even think LD is rare. I was saying that I think true “bait and switch” is rare. I don’t believe that there are tons of LD women out there who pretend to be these sex crazy porn stars for years of dating and engagement and then as soon as it’s official they say “haha sucker!” Again, not saying it doesn’t ever happen but I don’t think it’s happening as much as I’ve seen it brought up here.
> I have many unhappy women friends. They complain about “bait and switch” too. They had these wonderful boyfriends who spent time with them and were thoughtful and sweet and made them feel special and sexy....then they got married and suddenly their new husband stayed out hunting all day or hanging out with his buddies while the wife stayed home with the kids all day and then he expected her to spread her legs when he got home. I heard it all the time. “You’re so lucky. My husband quit doing all that after we got married.” Before I’m crusified by all the menfolk, I don’t believe that all men do this (mine obviously did not). Just using an example that I’ve heard over and over. I think that it’s normally (but not always) faults in both sides of the marriage that slowly causes couples to resent each other for their own versions of “bait and switch”.


For the record, I don't think that you are asking to much all things considered. Some men are not very patient, while I would like to think that most would give you the benefit of the doubt. There's a fine line between letting someone get their **** straight and seeing a lack of give a ****.

As for the rest, I tend to agree that true bait and switch is rare. I'm sorry I didn't make the distinction clear. The rest of your post was very solid. It's been said many times here and I always have a hard time disagreeing with it.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

This topic is very difficult. 

When I first came here - I was way way more focused on the mechanics of it. If frequency was the problem, request/demand more frequency. 

I no longer believe that is a good approach. Don’t get me wrong, I think it’s ok to say that the frequency isn’t long term viable - which is a type of indirect demand. 

But now I recommend adding in the comment that you don’t want your partner to do anything they don’t WANT to do, so the goal is for them to work with you on THAT. 

There are many folks here who claim that the LD people often don’t know why they don’t like sex very much. I believe that is VERY rare. 

Much more likely, that the underlying issue isn’t fixable, why they hide behind not knowing what they want. 

I also think that - your chances of overriding someone’s religious issues with sex - are better before kids. 




Windwalker said:


> You ambiguous? HA!
> 
> Half of your posts come off as a twisted cross between Confucius and The Riddler. I do however understand why.
> 
> That is also said with a high regard.


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## LeananSidhe (Feb 6, 2018)

Windwalker said:


> LeananSidhe said:
> 
> 
> > I’m really sorry that things worked out so differently for you. I wish I knew exactly what it was that made things easier for us. Maybe it was me, maybe it was my husband, probably it was both of us. I have no idea where we would have ended up if I wouldn’t have realized I needed to stop the depo shot. I know it wouldn’t have been good though. I think I would have eventually refused sex. Not because I wanted to be selfish or controlling but because it literally felt like torture some nights. I still loved him through all of it and I still wanted to protect his feelings but I feel like it wouldn’t have been enough eventually. I wouldn’t have been able to live like that much longer. I can’t believe how angry I would feel at him when he’d be trying his best to please me. I’d have to take deep breaths to stop myself from punching him.
> ...


I think I did want to fix the frustration more than he did. I mean, he obviously wanted things to get better but he’s always been an optimist and I think probably in denial. I feel like he was telling himself that things would get better and it was just because our kids were so young. I also think that these issues are much more common than we thought. To us, having sex 2-4 times a month was the worst dry spell we’d ever been in but he’d hear male coworkers complain about not even getting sex that much and that once a week was something to be proud of. So I think eventually he felt bad for complaining. He rarely complained at all during the bad year. You have actually made me want to talk to him about it and hear more about his thoughts and feelings during that time. I have a feeling that he’ll say that he was fine and understood that I was struggling...whether or not it’s entirely true. 

I’m probably being too quick to judge TAM. I’ve been here less than a week so my opinion shouldn’t really matter. 

I really hope you can still find some happiness. I hope that something changes for you. Why do you stay? 
The biggest part of me doesn’t understand how your wife could let things go so far...but a tiny part of me knows that I may have done be same if I hadn’t stopped it as soon as I did. I could sense myself feeling less and less. It’s scary to think about and you have made me feel sad but also thankful.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

Given all my careful planning before marriage, I was still only lucky.

Mary is a pathological liar, and fell in love with me almost a year before we ever dated. She planned to get my attention and worked at it. She said anything she needed to say to get me to marry her. Talk about the proverbial bait and switch.

I have always thanked God she just happened to be a very highly sexual person, who was temporarily stunted by the horrors she went through in her childhood. After her psychotherapy paid off her libido skyrocketed, and is still streaming through the upper atmosphere somewhere.

She claims a few things. Most often she just says it was Fate. But she often says I drew her to me like a bee to honey because she is highly sexual even though she didn't know it at that time, and I recognized her true nature in spite of the damage. Mary has a lot of spiritualism in her. In any case, she is convinced it had to happen, and nothing could have kept us apart.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Leanan,
You had the more important desire, the desire to please. Raw lust, is a fickle friend. 

It comes it goes, it comes back, it goes, it suddenly comes roaring back out of nowhere, and slowly creeps away. 

And that’s ok. IF you desire to please each other. At least half of all the sex we have, one of us doesn’t start out turned on at all. But - we start doing stuff and like magic - it all works. And that is based on the desire to please and it’s mirror image, the desire to avoid displeasing your partner. 

I would no more grind M2, than she would starve me. Both are - unkind. 






LeananSidhe said:


> I think I did want to fix the frustration more than he did. I mean, he obviously wanted things to get better but he’s always been an optimist and I think probably in denial. I feel like he was telling himself that things would get better and it was just because our kids were so young. I also think that these issues are much more common than we thought. To us, having sex 2-4 times a month was the worst dry spell we’d ever been in but he’d hear male coworkers complain about not even getting sex that much and that once a week was something to be proud of. So I think eventually he felt bad for complaining. He rarely complained at all during the bad year. You have actually made me want to talk to him about it and hear more about his thoughts and feelings during that time. I have a feeling that he’ll say that he was fine and understood that I was struggling...whether or not it’s entirely true.
> 
> I’m probably being too quick to judge TAM. I’ve been here less than a week so my opinion shouldn’t really matter.
> 
> ...


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## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

MEM2020 said:


> This topic is very difficult.
> 
> When I first came here - I was way way more focused on the mechanics of it. If frequency was the problem, request/demand more frequency.
> 
> ...


I completely understand. The good lord knows I have had to face my own deamons in this regard. I have had to face my own bitterness. I know it well. Thankfully, I have also fought those, and while I may come across as jaded at times, I believe it has made me stronger. In as much, I prefer to think of it as a form of acceptance. It's a different form of acceptance than that of Cletus, but in the end its still acceptance.

"There are many folks here who claim that the LD people often don’t know why they don’t like sex very much. I believe that is VERY rare."

QFT. I do believe we had a short discussion on this earlier in the thread.

I still believe the best way to get to the heart of the matter is to create a safe place so that both people can talk with out fear of judgment. The problem is getting to that place. Then you have to worry about defensiveness and protecting of privileges from both sides. It's a tough nut to crack.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

LeananSidhe said:


> <snip>
> 
> I’m probably being too quick to judge TAM. I’ve been here less than a week so my opinion shouldn’t really matter.
> 
> <snip>


Your opinion matters just as much as any of us.

Oh, except mine! Mine of course is way more important than anyones!!


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Very difficult to change a partners mindset. In that regard I’m very, very fortunate.

M2 believes it his her responsibility to ensure I am at the very least not unhappy with our sex life. 

Just as it’s my job not to be high maintenance about the whole thing. Unfortunately I was very high maintenance our first 15 years together. I slowly realized that wasn’t very nice. 




Windwalker said:


> I completely understand. The good lord knows I have had to face my own deamons in this regard. I have had to face my own bitterness. I know it well. Thankfully, I have also fought those, and while I may come across as jaded at times, I believe it has made me stronger. In as much, I prefer to think of it as a form of acceptance. It's a different form of acceptance than that of Cletus, but in the end its still acceptance.
> 
> "There are many folks here who claim that the LD people often don’t know why they don’t like sex very much. I believe that is VERY rare."
> 
> ...


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## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

LeananSidhe said:


> I think I did want to fix the frustration more than he did. I mean, he obviously wanted things to get better but he’s always been an optimist and I think probably in denial. I feel like he was telling himself that things would get better and it was just because our kids were so young. I also think that these issues are much more common than we thought. To us, having sex 2-4 times a month was the worst dry spell we’d ever been in but he’d hear male coworkers complain about not even getting sex that much and that once a week was something to be proud of. So I think eventually he felt bad for complaining. He rarely complained at all during the bad year. You have actually made me want to talk to him about it and hear more about his thoughts and feelings during that time. I have a feeling that he’ll say that he was fine and understood that I was struggling...whether or not it’s entirely true.
> 
> I’m probably being too quick to judge TAM. I’ve been here less than a week so my opinion shouldn’t really matter.
> 
> ...


Sexual problems are much like any other problems, they are relative to the people involved. No one else matters. Create a place free from judgments and honesty hopefully comes through.

Why should your opinion not matter? Your opinion is as valid as any other.

The things I speak of are in the past. I am happy in my own way. I personally believe that happiness is a relative thing. Please don't take what I said the wrong way. What came out was pure, raw and unfiltered. That is a pretty rare thing for me. I can come across as jaded and cross at times, but rarely pure and unfiltered.

Lots of things did change for us. Some good, some not so good. We are in the best place we have been since year 5 before all this crap started. I only expressed regret in reflection of what has happened and what could have been.

I stayed because I never stopped loving her, I came close, but never stopped. I stayed for my boys. I stayed because I have always been a fighter and I just never know when to stop. That's a blessing and a curse. I stayed because it has caused me to grow, and has as painful as it has been at times, has made me a better person. 

I dished out just as much as I got. She a strong woman. Damn strong. She also is the one person I respect more than anyone else. She's earned it.

One of the most important things I learned was to be thankful for what is and fearful of what could have been, but to never let the fear dictate the outcome.


I think you have a good perspective.


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## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

MEM2020 said:


> Very difficult to change a partners mindset. In that regard I’m very, very fortunate.
> 
> M2 believes it his her responsibility to ensure I am at the very least not unhappy with our sex life.
> 
> Just as it’s my job not to be high maintenance about the whole thing. Unfortunately I was very high maintenance our first 15 years together. I slowly realized that wasn’t very nice.


Lol.
Realization is accepting that maybe I haven't provided the safety and security to bring out the best in her.

The older I get the more I realize just how big of an ass I have been to her.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Right there with you brother. 




Windwalker said:


> Lol.
> Realization is accepting that maybe I haven't provided the safety and security to bring out the best in her.
> 
> The older I get the more I realize just how big of an ass I have been to her.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

LeananSidhe said:


> I’m really sorry that things worked out so differently for you. I wish I knew exactly what it was that made things easier for us. Maybe it was me, maybe it was my husband, probably it was both of us. I have no idea where we would have ended up if I wouldn’t have realized I needed to stop the depo shot. I know it wouldn’t have been good though. I think I would have eventually refused sex. Not because I wanted to be selfish or controlling but because it literally felt like torture some nights. I still loved him through all of it and I still wanted to protect his feelings but I feel like it wouldn’t have been enough eventually. I wouldn’t have been able to live like that much longer. I can’t believe how angry I would feel at him when he’d be trying his best to please me. I’d have to take deep breaths to stop myself from punching him.
> I did eventually tell my husband about the feelings I had but not until after things started getting better. It did hurt him but luckily I was able to let him see that I no longer felt that way. He made me promise that I would stop him and let him know if I ever had those feelings again....I hope I never have to keep that promise.
> This June will be 15 years for us.
> 
> ...



It’s great how open and introspective you are about yourself and your marriage. 
I think that’s a big help when it comes to willingness to fix issues.
I sometimes wonder about people who are not as honest with themselves: is it because they know those things but their brain tries to suppress an honest explanation or is it because they really don’t have an explanation and will forever be looking on the outside for reasons rather than inside?

I noticed something funny: when it’s the PMS week for my wife and she literally can’t stand any physical touch from me, she used to initiate fights preemptively, to get me off her back. Then she would often say “you really hate me don’t you”. Whereas it’s clear as day that she is the one feeling this way yet too scared or guilty to admit it to herself.

It’s really weird, this projection thing. I know hormonal changes are rough etc but there must still be ways to be loving and civil. 
(It’s not like I’m constantly jumping on her for sex but when the two of us are alone, she would feel the pressure somehow and feel guilty that she wouldn’t feel the same that I feel).
Maybe I could be projecting too but I can’t explain it otherwise. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## itskaren (Dec 28, 2011)

Since my husbands affair 6 years ago I detest sex with him. I think about his affair every day but it is most prominent when we are intimate. So I do all I can to avoid it.


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## LeananSidhe (Feb 6, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> LeananSidhe said:
> 
> 
> > I’m really sorry that things worked out so differently for you. I wish I knew exactly what it was that made things easier for us. Maybe it was me, maybe it was my husband, probably it was both of us. I have no idea where we would have ended up if I wouldn’t have realized I needed to stop the depo shot. I know it wouldn’t have been good though. I think I would have eventually refused sex. Not because I wanted to be selfish or controlling but because it literally felt like torture some nights. I still loved him through all of it and I still wanted to protect his feelings but I feel like it wouldn’t have been enough eventually. I wouldn’t have been able to live like that much longer. I can’t believe how angry I would feel at him when he’d be trying his best to please me. I’d have to take deep breaths to stop myself from punching him.
> ...


I can get very snappy during PMS week. I get this nervous, sick feeling in my stomach and my whole body feels tense. My patience is completely drained and I struggle because we have 3 young kids and I have to stay patient with them...so unfortunately my husband sometimes becomes the outlet for my annoyance and frustration. 
The only thing that helps me is that I now recognize it. I know I can be irrationally angry during that time. Recognizing it doesn’t always stop it but I’m quicker to calm myself down and apologize now. The biggest thing though is that I have to work that out myself. If he tries to tell me that I need to calm down because I’m PMSing...yikes. Lol. 
He also has times when he’s irrational and snappy. When he’s very tired or stressed he will sometimes be very short with me or yell about something. He’s not as defensive as I am though so I normally calmly say “You are tired and stressed. You’re not mad at me.” And walk away. After a few minutes he normally comes and apologizes. 
It wasn’t always like that. We used to fight quite a bit because one of us would be irritable and the other would take offense and get angry and then it becomes a full blown screaming match. We are big into late night talks though and we’ve worked through a lot of things. 

I’m not perfect be any means. There are lots of things I struggle with. 

It was hard at first to be so open to my husband about how I was feeling. I didn’t want to hurt his feelings. It’s pretty easy for me here because of the anonymity of the forum. I would never want to tell my real life friends that at one point I wanted to punch my husband during oral sex. Lol.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

itskaren said:


> Since my husbands affair 6 years ago I detest sex with him. I think about his affair every day but it is most prominent when we are intimate. So I do all I can to avoid it.


That's not sexual incompatibility. That's: your partner cheated on you and it ruined your relationship.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

LeananSidhe said:


> I can get very snappy during PMS week. I get this nervous, sick feeling in my stomach and my whole body feels tense. My patience is completely drained and I struggle because we have 3 young kids and I have to stay patient with them...so unfortunately my husband sometimes becomes the outlet for my annoyance and frustration.
> The only thing that helps me is that I now recognize it. I know I can be irrationally angry during that time. Recognizing it doesn’t always stop it but I’m quicker to calm myself down and apologize now. The biggest thing though is that I have to work that out myself. If he tries to tell me that I need to calm down because I’m PMSing...yikes. Lol.
> He also has times when he’s irrational and snappy. When he’s very tired or stressed he will sometimes be very short with me or yell about something. He’s not as defensive as I am though so I normally calmly say “You are tired and stressed. You’re not mad at me.” And walk away. After a few minutes he normally comes and apologizes.
> It wasn’t always like that. We used to fight quite a bit because one of us would be irritable and the other would take offense and get angry and then it becomes a full blown screaming match. We are big into late night talks though and we’ve worked through a lot of things.
> ...


I miss those late night talks and wish we had more of these. I read somewhere that you shoudl spend a certain amount of hours with your partner, just two of you, per week (was it 15?). I think she used to sometimes deliberately avoid them, in case they lead to sex. They don't need to but when she does fall asleep at 8pm next to one of hour kids for the night, that's when it's most depressing/empty. I know she is tired and it's not personal...
Who initiates those talks, you or your husband? I think it's important to keep that up.

It can be hard when the brain tells you one thing but the body maybe another. If the body is repulsed/lacks the drive then no matter what the brain says, it'll be tough to override the body...It's not impossible but still tough. Anyway, that only happens during her PMS week. Or first 4-6 months after birth. In the 3rd trimester, she was crazy sex hungry...And I wish she would agree to have another baby (no4!) just so that she would wake me up again in the middle of the night to 'rape' me.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

LeananSidhe said:


> I wasn’t saying that I thought LD was extremely rare. I don’t even think LD is rare. I was saying that I think true “bait and switch” is rare. I don’t believe that there are tons of LD women out there who pretend to be these sex crazy porn stars for years of dating and engagement and then as soon as it’s official they say “haha sucker!” Again, not saying it doesn’t ever happen but I don’t think it’s happening as much as I’ve seen it brought up here.


I personally don't think it happens intentionally. Many women think that sex is all the guy likes/wants (and it's not completely wrong) so during the first stages of a relationship, when hormones are all over the place as well, it's easier to make (unintentional) tweaks to personality and do things perhaps a woman wouldn't normally do. However this can't go on forever, eventually everyone reverts to being themselves. You can't forever pretend to be someone you are not (though some people can), you become miserable.
There are also things like kids, life, responsibilities, reality etc. All of this can push the priority for sex towards the end of that to do list..So to an outsider it may look like bait and switch whereas it's a more complex process.

I remember times when I felt really guilty asking for sex because of wife's reaction. "Are you insane, you really expect me to give you a hand job while my parents are in the house?!" 
"They don't have to watch..."
That's the kind of dynamic we had after our third was was born. I felt like some kind of pervert for even looking at her as a woman. But I couldn't stop and couldn't relate to her mindset: to me, she could not ever do anything for me to stop feeling strong attraction. To her, it was insulting that I even felt that way.

Things are normally not like that at all nowadays. She likes and enjoys sex usually. She also initiates (though prefers more vanilla type sex but at least if she's in the mood, I can steer her into different flavours of sex since she would let me).

I am just concerned because that time when we had those problems left me confused to this day who the REAL her is: is it the person who despises me or the one who enjoys being with me? How do I know? And more importantly, how can I know that SHE knows?
I don't believe in free will when it comes to those things...The mind reacts to the body and finds a suitable explanation. Not the other around!


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## LeananSidhe (Feb 6, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> LeananSidhe said:
> 
> 
> > I can get very snappy during PMS week. I get this nervous, sick feeling in my stomach and my whole body feels tense. My patience is completely drained and I struggle because we have 3 young kids and I have to stay patient with them...so unfortunately my husband sometimes becomes the outlet for my annoyance and frustration.
> ...


I initiate the serious talks... He’s usually open to them (sometimes a little reluctant) but I’m more of a “let’s work this out” person. Like when we fight over something I think he’d be content to just forgive and move on but I’m the annoying one who’s like “let’s discuss why we fought and how we can prevent it in the future”. Lol. But I really think it helps! I’m a grudge holder and I need to hash things out to really move on. 

We both initiate the random talks. The ones where we just stay up late talking about stuff like who we hate or dream vacations. Lol. Just the random “we’re still friends too” talks. It’s not always easy to have those though. Being a parent is tough and exhausting. Most nights we watch tv together and then spend maybe 5-10 minutes chit chatting in bed before we fall asleep. The long talks don’t happen as much as they did before kids. I can also see where your wife would avoid them if she really doesn’t want to have sex. Nearly all of our long talks in bed end up with sex. My husband can’t spend too long in bed with me not sleeping before he starts thinking about sex. Usually there’s talking and loving physical contact and things start slowly. 

You saying that she falls asleep next to the kids at 8pm really hits home for me. I was just thinking this morning about how my mindset has changed since my sex drive has gone back up. I don’t really know how to explain it. First off let me say that I adore my 3 little brats...but it’s become easier for me to not give myself entirely to them. If that makes sense. A year ago I really enjoyed the nights when the kids would sleep in our bed. Not only did that mean no sex (a plus for me at the time) but I also wanted to cuddle them and just loved falling asleep with them. I still love cuddling with them and I love nap time cuddles...but I want my bed back. It’s mine and my husband’s space and I don’t want my kids there. I’m still nursing my 2 year old. A few months ago I was in no hurry for him to wean...now I’m seriously thinking about weaning him soon. I’m wanting more dates with my husband now sans kids. Before we always went on lunch dates with the baby but now I’m the one suggesting we find a sitter (I never wanted to leave him before). 
I think maybe it has to do with me feeling more like an actual person again instead of “just mom”. When I’m feeling like “just mom” it’s easy to give all of my body and mind to the kids. Everything was about them. I knew my husband needed me too so I would sort of force myself to be there for him but it was forced and that’s never good. Now I want to be close to him for myself too. I don’t feel like “just mom”. I’m Leah and Leah likes sex and date nights and even things like reading books and going for walks and everything else that I forgot about when I was “just mom”.

Speaking of a 4th kid. This has even changed the idea of more kids for me. I always thought that if we had more money or a bigger house that I’d want more kids. Nope. I’m done. I am so ready for the next part of my life. I always felt sad about that before. Like if I wasn’t having kids that meant I was old. Now I’m actually excited about my kids growing up and becoming more independent. I know that I’ll miss them being little and I still cry thinking about it...but there’s also a part of me that is excited about what’s next. Kid free vacations?? YES! Loud sex with no worries?? YES! Sleeping in??? YES PLEASE!!

And now I’ll probably end up pregnant again...lol


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

LeananSidhe said:


> And now I’ll probably end up pregnant again...lol


Please be very VERY careful with this. It can happen too easily...

I do want no4. My wife is absolutely adamant that she can't go through with this all over again and she said word for word what you said the other day. 

I keep going in circles in my mind that if only we organised our lives better, we could manage it and have good lives together. We can afford another one but my wife doesn't want nannies and always was/is very hands on with all of them. She's amazing as a mom. And I am probably dreaming and being completely unrealistic that it will be possible for them to all get enough attention from parents. Even with 3.


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## LeananSidhe (Feb 6, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> LeananSidhe said:
> 
> 
> > I wasn’t saying that I thought LD was extremely rare. I don’t even think LD is rare. I was saying that I think true “bait and switch” is rare. I don’t believe that there are tons of LD women out there who pretend to be these sex crazy porn stars for years of dating and engagement and then as soon as it’s official they say “haha sucker!” Again, not saying it doesn’t ever happen but I don’t think it’s happening as much as I’ve seen it brought up here.
> ...


I’m glad that she enjoys and initiates sex now! That’s a weird sentence to type. I kind of feel like a pervert...hopefully you understand what I’m saying. Lol.
I only recently started initiating sex again.

I would ask my husband “why do you always have to think about sex” and he’d say “because your body turns me on, would you prefer that it didn’t?” That always made me stop and think. Even when I didn’t want sex I still wanted him to want me. Not in a sadistic “You can’t have me” way but just because he’s my husband and of course I want him to think I’m attractive. It’s kind of a cruel situation....I didn’t want sex but I still wanted him to want to have sex with me. 

I don’t think it’s as easy as knowing who “the real” person is. We change and grow. Different situations make us feel different ways. I feel like your wife is probably the person who wants to be with you...


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## LeananSidhe (Feb 6, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> LeananSidhe said:
> 
> 
> > And now I’ll probably end up pregnant again...lol
> ...


Oh, I know. Our 3rd was conceived while I was consistently taking birth control pills.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

LeananSidhe said:


> I’m glad that she enjoys and initiates sex now! That’s a weird sentence to type. I kind of feel like a pervert...hopefully you understand what I’m saying. Lol.
> I only recently started initiating sex again.
> 
> I would ask my husband “why do you always have to think about sex” and he’d say “because your body turns me on, would you prefer that it didn’t?” That always made me stop and think. Even when I didn’t want sex I still wanted him to want me. Not in a sadistic “You can’t have me” way but just because he’s my husband and of course I want him to think I’m attractive. It’s kind of a cruel situation....I didn’t want sex but I still wanted him to want to have sex with me.
> ...


I am torn between thinking that and feeling that she just might like 'the idea' of me. Like when i go on work trips (which is more than half the time), she seems much more attracted to me. Whereas I am much more turned on by her when I am in her proximity...I also can't quite wrap my head around this. If real attraction existed, it should be when I am right here, with her.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> If real attraction existed, it should be when I am right here, with her.


But don't you think part of that is because attraction isn't just physical? It's also mental and emotional.

For me, it's very much a barometer of the overall health of the relationship as a whole.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

minimalME said:


> But don't you think part of that is because attraction isn't just physical? It's also mental and emotional.
> 
> 
> 
> For me, it's very much a barometer of the overall health of the relationship as a whole.




Yes I hope it is both! But it’s not much good if she really wants to have sex with me while I’m not at home and then when I come back, she suddenly remembers ‘ah it’s that guy who really annoys me’.
Ok the last part is an exaggeration. Sex is usually great after I have been away.
Anyway, I do hope it’s a more benign explanation...I need to do more of those ‘talks’ I guess to find out. 
Though she’s more pragmatic person in that she doesn’t like digging stuff up unnecessarily.
I feel like such a woman in our relationship sometimes 
Need to man the **** up and stop doubting ****.
I think that’s what happens when you go through a phase of rejection. The effects are somehow long lasting. I know they shouldn’t be but they seem to be.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> I am just concerned because that time when we had those problems left me confused to this day who the REAL her is: is it the person who despises me or the one who enjoys being with me? How do I know? And more importantly, how can I know that SHE knows?


As a long time married person, I can tell you that it's both - sometimes in the same day.


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

Cletus said:


> Anyone want to discuss this?
> 
> Many come to this site looking to fix an unsatisfying sex life. Sometimes the problems stem not from having a sexless marriage or an LD spouse, but from simply having an irreconcilable difference of opinion on what a satisfying sex life should contain. Your spouse desires intimacy with you, but under terms that you find hard to agree to.
> 
> ...




- At first, when Mrs.CuddleBug and I got married, I could have sex every day and multiple times, were as she wanted sex 1x month or less.....as you can imagine our marriage was very rocky and we almost divorced at one point.


- Her parents told Mrs.CuddleBug you don't communicate enough and bottle it up. Give it a chance, so she came back, apologized and said she wanted to make it work.


- Then we bought a place and now we have our own space and a cat. Huge improvement.


- The sexual incompatibility issue persisted.


- She started working out and got hormone therapy.


- The weight started coming off and her LD became more normal drive, 2x week I'd say.


- Then she missed a workout session here and there and no longer went to the gym.


- Her weight came back and much more....about 100 lbs over weight now.


- I realized that she isn't serious about taking care of her body.


- I am on newer supplements, got my old energy levels back, am bigger and ripped like my 20's again, loving it. I will be going back to the gym real soon once the snow is gone.


- My sex drive is still the same, so I bought nice sex toys and use them when the mood hits me. No point initiating sex with a LD spouse.


- We don't fight much, money isn't an issue (no mortgage), she loves her career and I like my new career path and our cat is a good boy.


- We will never be close because of the lack of physical intimacy and sex, which is sad but that's life and you can't have it all.


- I am HD adventurous and she is LD conservative.


- I am more than willing to meet her half way, sex maybe 3x week but if left up to her more like 1x every 2 months now......so I don't initiate at all anymore.


- She likes the fact I am big and muscular and grabbed my bum last night, oh, you have a nice bum from the weight training......heh heh.


- Summary. Short of a miracle, I still haven't found a solution to HD / LD sexual incompatibility, after roughly 20 years of marriage.


- I just do more things like outside landscaping our place, weight training, more interests, and leave her be for the most part.


- I've learned so much from TAM its amazing from EVERYONE, and I will continue to learn more.


- But getting a LD spouse to get a sex drive is almost impossible, unless someone on TAM figured it out, then I'm there.:grin2:


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

CuddleBug said:


> - Her weight came back and much more....about 100 lbs over weight now.


That's a lot of weight to add - not like 5 or 10 lbs.


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

minimalME said:


> That's a lot of weight to add - not like 5 or 10 lbs.



- Yuppers.


- The ladies on TAM who complain they need to lose 5lbs, 10 lbs, 20lbs, etc. really don't have much to complain about....its not a lot of weight and back to the gym and it comes off fast. When doing nothing for years, it adds up and then you get 50 lbs, 100 lbs, etc. over weight and especially as we all get older.


- I see it this way. I chose to take care of myself and she doesn't. Simple. Consequences on both sides.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

...


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

CuddleBug said:


> - But getting a LD spouse to get a sex drive is almost impossible, unless someone on TAM figured it out, then I'm there.:grin2:



I think it’s possible. It was possible in my case at least.
At least where the mismatch is not that dramatic and where the LD partner is willing to compromise. There are also a few women on TAM (LD-ish) who understood the true extent of what their husbands were going through by reading other men’s stories (about the same old problem). I don’t know why it takes a strange man’s personal story to get a better understanding - it’s ironic really - but I also understood many things about my wife that way.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> I think it’s possible. It was possible in my case at least.
> At least where the mismatch is not that dramatic and where the LD partner is willing to compromise. There are also a few women on TAM (LD-ish) who understood the true extent of what their husbands were going through by reading other men’s stories (about the same old problem). I don’t know why it takes a strange man’s personal story to get a better understanding - it’s ironic really - but I also understood many things about my wife that way.
> 
> 
> ...



- Cool.:smthumbup:

- What worked in your case?

- I'm all eyes....


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## LeananSidhe (Feb 6, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> I don’t know why it takes a strange man’s personal story to get a better understanding - it’s ironic really - but I also understood many things about my wife that way.


You’re so right about this. For me, it’s because a strange man has no reason to worry about my feelings or the consequences of telling the truth. I’m not saying that my husband would be purposely dishonest (well, not always) but I think it’s human nature to want to protect the feelings of the ones we love.


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## Handy (Jul 23, 2017)

Why does it take another person's problems for the spouse to understand? Some men and women think their spouse is being unreasonable and out of the norm until the reluctant spouse hears the story from several other people.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

farsidejunky said:


> AP:
> 
> I have found similar acceptance in my marriage at once to twice a month in frequency.
> 
> ...



Im glad I’m getting to come back to this, the bolded part.

I know your wife is what we call high maintenance. How does she react to getting less than your total devotion? How do you respond to that?

Recently, this issue came to a head in my marriage. He is angry and reacting in his typical passive aggressive way. He had an opportunity to “really stick it to me” and I called him on it. More silent than crickets.... followed by avoidance. I honestly don’t really care. I don’t feel hurt, or even angry really. Just kinda laughing like ‘another Trump Tweet...he said what?’ It’s expected.

But the problem is my youngest feels stuck in the middle and that is not a place she should be. However, marriages are not smooth sailing and as long as confrontations aren’t nasty or venomous, if they happen to be in the same room it doesn’t mean they are involved. 







Cletus said:


> So you don't accept my acceptance. Or at least the premise on which it is based.
> 
> What makes you say that everyone can fly? Maybe a jog is the best that some can manage. What if my sexual proclivities included Class IV S&M Bondage, scat play, and cuckholding? Would my spouse be considered such a knuckle-dragger for not being capable of winning the KinkOlympics? And if the answer is no, which I hope it is, then who gets to draw the line on when someone is being reasonable in their sexual line-in-the-sand versus any other?



No fair @Cletus, you’re the numbers guy! Bell curve of what most people consider normal sexual acts between consenting adults. There is a HUGE gap between _No boob touching, no genital touching with hands and absolutely no oral play and only in missionary”_ and _S&M Bondage scat cuckholding._ 

Kinsey gets to draw the line. Kinsey gets to chart, based on years of research, what is a reasonable expectation to negotiate between consenting adults and what isn’t reasonable based on the bell curve of sexual acts. It’s all normal, but there is a range that is reasonable and your wife isntnin that range.







> Best answer I can give is "because I can". One of us has to bend, or we have to break. I am capable of bending, so I do. To answer the immediately obvious question, yes there are things over which I would break. Sexlessness is one of them. Vanilla sex apparently is not. Her bend-but-not-break points are different but no less important, I suspect, and probably exercised as frequently.
> 
> As difficult as it might be for me to do the heavy lifting on sexual compromise, it's still less work than she would have to do to come up to my level. If the very thought of something makes you sick to your stomach, that's a higher hill to climb, IMHO.


Expecting her to come up to your level of reasonable is unreasonable, IMO. Expecting her to grow her comfort level with one or two sex acts over the course of a very long marriage, considering you respected her desire to remain celibate prior to marriage, is very reasonable.





> I had to mostly give up chocolate cake when my weight got out of control.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh I see him for who he is and I have zero, nine, nada, expections, hopes or desires that he change. For me, even if he did change miraculously, it would be absolutely meaningless at this point. I don’t want it. I don’t want from him or from anyone. 

I don’t know what you could use to approach your wife except education. People who refuse to grow have closed their eyes and their hearts and stick their fingers in their ears refusing to look around and take notice of other people. Narrow minded and rigid people should not be catered to, and I know you’re not doing that. Education about sex, sex practices in other cultures, sex acts considered average and sex acts considered outside of average. No one is suggesting she learn to enjoy the smell of intestinal gas straight from the source (found in a book of ways to show to your husband “smell his farts and tell him how much your love his scent.” True story!) but telling her that growing comfortable with one or two new ways is reasonable. 

Not too many young women, new to sex, look an erect penis and think “yum I can’t wait to get that in my mouth it looks delicious! They do it because he wants it. They do it again because he loves it and it makes him very happy. They do it over and over again, throughout the relationship, because turning him on turns her on. It’s win win that didn’t start out as a win win at all.

Insisting she read this book about sex and grow her knowledge base is far different than insisting she learn to give head and learn to like it.


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## JustTheWife (Nov 1, 2017)

My view is that a couple needs to work hard to make their sexuality compatible. Compatible does not mean that you are the same. My husband is very different from me sexually. He is very conservative and didn't have any experience before we were married. I prefer for a guy to take charge and kind of be more dirty (sorry i don't know how else to say it).

Everyone needs to try to make things work. I'm not going to give up on my marriage just because of sex. Not saying it's not important and not saying that I don't get frustrated sometimes but just because we have a different idea of sex, I don;t think we cannot be compatible and there's more to marriage than sex. We all have to adjust with things and you can't change what people want. Anyway, I did a lot of that stuff before my husband so now is the time to represent love and not about being "dirty" all the time.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

MEM2020 said:


> While your logic is fine, your conclusion is questionable.
> 
> And very few Christians in the modern world - consider masturbation to be a real sin.
> 
> You can use guilt as a trigger to focus on passion. But as a trigger to get more sex, good luck.


I am not sure how my conclusion is questionable. I wouldn't use guilt as a trigger for more sex. I'm simply suggesting issues like this need to be addressed head-on. If this were me again, I would avoid being mean, but I would be frank and direct even though my spouse may feel guilty, angry, etc. I would care about her emotional state, but (1) getting the issue out in the open is the priority and (2) we are responsible for our own emotions; I would expect her to deal with it and have a meaningful conversation despite them.

I don't see a problem with a guy telling his wife "we don't have enough sex to meet my need and I find masturbation sinful". That is just how he feels. I would not suggest he say it's her responsibility to provide. In fact, I would suggest he do the opposite; he could follow up with "I am taking more responsibility for my happiness than I had before" (if he felt the need) and then start doing his own thing more. Your argument suggests that having the talk about his needs necessarily leads to guilt and unwilling accommodation by his wife, which isn't the case at all.

At that point, his wife is free to either make spending time with her more appealing to him, or to accept this new situation and move on from there. Either way, she has made that decision freely without him guilting or pressuring her into something. She might be pissed that he changed the paradigm to one where his happiness is more central, but that's just the way it is.

Hope that clears it up.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> Im glad I’m getting to come back to this, the bolded part.
> 
> I know your wife is what we call high maintenance. How does she react to getting less than your total devotion? How do you respond to that?
> 
> ...


 @Anon Pink, believe it or not, the high maintenance part of her has decreased substantially. The business we started has completely taken off, and it owns her (our) time in her working 70+ hour weeks. There is some light at the end of the tunnel in that we are in negotiations for selling it to a larger company. We will see if it goes through.

As far as how she reacts...in some ways the same, but in many ways better. She feels little pressure of expectation from me anymore. This has actually resulted in some interesting things. We have quite a bit of sexual flirting, much of it initiated by her. In fact, I am fairly certain I could notch the frequency up a bit, but I kind of enjoy our current dynamic and doing so may bring that pressure back. I don't like her to feel pressured, and I don't like to feel like she is pressured. Bottom line is the that I am pretty content with our current arrangement. 

She still needs me to be centered for her world to be okay, which is a lot of pressure when I let it get to me. The nice guy clutches to old habits... But most of the time I remind myself not to be too concerned with that. 

As for Thumper...it is very disappointing. It has been said a million times...some people value comfort over happiness. He is the poster child for it. It does indeed suck for your youngest. 

What is the long term plan? Once the youngest is out of the house, are you gone?


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## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> Oh I see him for who he is and I have zero, nine, nada, expections, hopes or desires that he change. For me, even if he did change miraculously, it would be absolutely meaningless at this point. I don’t want it. I don’t want from him or from anyone.


I'm sorry you are past your breaking point Pink. That fragile bond is so resilient, but once it's broken, there usually is no recovering it. It's hard, you try, you push, you try to explain, you try to reason, and in the end they just don't care enough to try. 

I'm sorry he values his comfort over you.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> Kinsey gets to draw the line. Kinsey gets to chart, based on years of research, what is a reasonable expectation to negotiate between consenting adults and what isn’t reasonable based on the bell curve of sexual acts. It’s all normal, but there is a range that is reasonable and your wife isntnin that range.


The numbers only tell you what is - they will never tell you what should be. Numbers are great for the population and useless for the individual. 

When was the last time you won an argument with anyone when you said "But everyone else is doing it?"



> Expecting her to come up to your level of reasonable is unreasonable, IMO. Expecting her to grow her comfort level with one or two sex acts over the course of a very long marriage, considering you respected her desire to remain celibate prior to marriage, is very reasonable.


By that metric then I am succeeding. Growth is possible, but it is slow and it has a ceiling. You have to be able to set your definition of "better" at a reasonable level for your mate. 



> Oh I see him for who he is and I have zero, nine, nada, expections, hopes or desires that he change. For me, even if he did change miraculously, it would be absolutely meaningless at this point. I don’t want it. I don’t want from him or from anyone.


Really? You've lost even the desire to see him change? You wouldn't accept it if it happened? That's a dangerous level of dissociation. What's going to stop you from becoming a walk-away wife? 



> I don’t know what you could use to approach your wife except education. People who refuse to grow have closed their eyes and their hearts and stick their fingers in their ears refusing to look around and take notice of other people.


I don't think I agree with this. I know that people in southeast Asia eat large bugs-on-a-stick, but I just don't think my knowing it would ever make it sound appetizing. I might try it once, but unless it's the best thing since single malt I don't really believe extra education is going to override my disgust reaction. I think that there is a statute of limitations on exposure to some things that once closed is hard if not impossible to reopen. 

I have to be very careful not to be dismissive of the growth that has happened in my sex life. There is no single better way to discourage your mate from even trying than to shrug off as trivial what for them was hard work. It _is_ better than it was on my honeymoon.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

farsidejunky said:


> @Anon Pink, believe it or not, the high maintenance part of her has decreased substantially. The business we started has completely taken off, and it owns her (our) time in her working 70+ hour weeks. There is some light at the end of the tunnel in that we are in negotiations for selling it to a larger company. We will see if it goes through.
> 
> As far as how she reacts...in some ways the same, but in many ways better. She feels little pressure of expectation from me anymore. This has actually resulted in some interesting things. We have quite a bit of sexual flirting, much of it initiated by her. In fact, I am fairly certain I could notch the frequency up a bit, but I kind of enjoy our current dynamic and doing so may bring that pressure back. I don't like her to feel pressured, and I don't like to feel like she is pressured. Bottom line is the that I am pretty content with our current arrangement.
> 
> She still needs me to be centered for her world to be okay, which is a lot of pressure when I let it get to me. The nice guy clutches to old habits... But most of the time I remind myself not to be too concerned with that.



Aha, since you’ve given up the covert contract and focused on yourself you’ve lessened the pressure she instinctively felt. I think she’ll probably always need your centering influence. Now that you’ve come to a place where you keep yourself centered because it works for YOU, rather than because she needs it, the pressure you feel isn’t invasive and fraught with landmines? It really does sound as if you’re in a better place than you were a few years ago. I’m happy for you.



> As for Thumper...it is very disappointing. It has been said a million times...some people value comfort over happiness. He is the poster child for it. It does indeed suck for your youngest.
> 
> What is the long term plan? Once the youngest is out of the house, are you gone?


Can’t quite settle on a long term plan. It’s a very tricky time of almost empty nest and close to retirement, time to downsize. 

In terms of the marriage...IDK. Sometimes I think why bother with divorce, the only thing that would change would be less laundry.  




Windwalker said:


> I'm sorry you are past your breaking point Pink. That fragile bond is so resilient, but once it's broken, there usually is no recovering it. It's hard, you try, you push, you try to explain, you try to reason, and in the end they just don't care enough to try.
> 
> I'm sorry he values his comfort over you.



Exactly! The snap cannot be undone.




Cletus said:


> The numbers only tell you what is - they will never tell you what should be. Numbers are great for the population and useless for the individual.
> 
> When was the last time you won an argument with anyone when you said "But everyone else is doing it?"



Oh no no no. This isn’t about everyone else is doing it, although it’s related. Is it reasonable? What makes it so or what makes it unreasonable?






> Really? You've lost even the desire to see him change? You wouldn't accept it if it happened? That's a dangerous level of dissociation. What's going to stop you from becoming a walk-away wife?


Nothing will stop it. I already am an away wife who just hasn’t walked yet. However, labeling wives as walk-aways is often misapplied. I have spent far too long trying to make this marriage work to ever be a true walk-away. But if that’s how you see it I’m okay with that.





> I don't think I agree with this. I know that people in southeast Asia eat large bugs-on-a-stick, but I just don't think my knowing it would ever make it sound appetizing. I might try it once, but unless it's the best thing since single malt I don't really believe extra education is going to override my disgust reaction. I think that there is a statute of limitations on exposure to some things that once closed is hard if not impossible to reopen.
> 
> I have to be very careful not to be dismissive of the growth that has happened in my sex life. There is no single better way to discourage your mate from even trying than to shrug off as trivial what for them was hard work. It _is_ better than it was on my honeymoon.



Cletus I really don’t want to challenge your ability to find happiness and contentment within your marriage. I know you’ve put a lot of effort and thought into the problematic sex life and you’ve come to a place of acceptance. You see it as serenity, accepting the things you cannot change, and I see it lacking the courage to change the things you can. Your wife is the one lacking courage, not you. Truthfully, you’re probably very wise because you know the difference. You cannot change your wife, just as I cannot change my husband. You’ve found contentment in acceptance, I’ve found disgust in acceptance.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I never thought I would be on my way to being single, but here I am. I suppose I could use the "why split now" but there's simply too much gone by. 

And much of it is related to practical stuff, not intimacy or emotional well-being. I proved to both of us that there's life after McMansion. It just that we couldn't work out a way to stay together. Long distance marriage is tough enough as it is. Having a decade of bad feelings is not any better.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

john117 said:


> I never thought I would be on my way to being single, but here I am. I suppose I could use the "why split now" but there's simply too much gone by.
> 
> And much of it is related to practical stuff, not intimacy or emotional well-being. I proved to both of us that there's life after McMansion. It just that we couldn't work out a way to stay together. Long distance marriage is tough enough as it is. Having a decade of bad feelings is not any better.


Oh wait...so you did leave? Sold the uber house and are in the process of divorce? And all this after a decade of living essentially the way I’m living now; emotionally divorced from the marriage, no longer reactive to or bothered by the daily B.S. of dealing with a spouse who hasn’t and won’t ever be one in the true sense of the word? Long distance? So you moved out but also moved far away? How’d that come to be? How’d your crazy wife react?

Although that final snap for me happened 2 years ago, it’s only been the past few months that I realized I could control my own sex life and have, as a result, stopped having sex with him. I think he might be close to realizing I really have left the marriage now that sex isn’t happening at all. 

I like sex, a lot, so I didn’t see the point in denying myself the one good thing continuing a marriage to him would bring me. 

Over the last two years our sex life had become one that required more effort from me as he put less and less effort into it. I had to mentally arouse myself because his touch sure as hell wasnt doing it, his approach sure as hell wouldn’t work for 90% of women, and the sex itself became utterly formulaic and predictable. As time wore on, it got worse and worse until I realized I had made sex so damn easy for him he was pretty much lost without me orchestrating and I had stopped orchestrating leaving him floundering.

The joys of being on HRT means my sex drive is now nearly 100% responsive. So if there is nothing to respond to.... one of the things that concerned me about divorce was sex. How would I get sex, good sex, given my issues with strange men? Now I know I can live without it.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Totally agree with this. 

Largest bugs on a stick - high disgust reflex. 





Cletus said:


> The numbers only tell you what is - they will never tell you what should be. Numbers are great for the population and useless for the individual.
> 
> When was the last time you won an argument with anyone when you said "But everyone else is doing it?"
> 
> ...


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Anon Pink said:


> Cletus I really don’t want to challenge your ability to find happiness and contentment within your marriage. I know you’ve put a lot of effort and thought into the problematic sex life and you’ve come to a place of acceptance. You see it as serenity, accepting the things you cannot change, and I see it lacking the courage to change the things you can. Your wife is the one lacking courage, not you. Truthfully, you’re probably very wise because you know the difference. You cannot change your wife, just as I cannot change my husband. *You’ve found contentment in acceptance, I’ve found disgust in acceptance.*


Per the bolded, it is amazing how two different people can arrive at two completely different conclusions. I have actually found a certain amount of peace in acceptance, hard to explain. Not ideal and I truly hope it doesn't get to the point where it turns to disgust.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

LeananSidhe said:


> My sex drive completely went away. If my husband so much as touched my shoulder I would tense up. It was strange because I could remember liking sex at one time but the thought of it was so awful to me that I couldn’t imagine why I had ever liked it so much. I rolled my eyes at sex scenes on tv because I thought sex could never be that good (even though I sort of remembered loving it years ago). I still forced myself to do it a few times a month but I wanted to scream “hurry up!!!” I remember my husband going down on me and I was making myself moan but in reality I was clenching my jaw and digging my nails into my palms and fighting the urge to actually hit him and make him stop. It was a horrible feeling because I knew it wasn’t normal and I knew it would kill him to know how I was feeling. I felt so guilty. I felt broken. He’s amazing and was always so sweet to me during this. We were still very close and had a good relationship except for sex. Basically best friends without many benefits. (Except that we were still having sex 2-4 times a month and I didn’t always hate it. Most times I did eventually come around to enjoying myself somewhat but I never actually wanted sex.)





LeananSidhe said:


> I did eventually tell my husband about the feelings I had but not until after things started getting better. It did hurt him but luckily I was able to let him see that I no longer felt that way. He made me promise that I would stop him and let him know if I ever had those feelings again....I hope I never have to keep that promise.
> This June will be 15 years for us.


I've been haunted by these posts for the last couple of days.

It's not like it's ever happened for me, but the thought of my wife fighting the urge to "want to punch me" me while I'm going down on her (and thinking that I'm pleasing her) is *SO* disturbing....

And, he was a good guy and you loved him, so it's not like he was doing anything wrong.

Your feelings were not within your conscious control. It's interesting that you have vague memories of enjoying sex so you suspected that this wasn't normal. You did, thankfully, realize that it was a problem and took steps to resolve it which is very commendable and something that I don't think most wives would do. 

I can see why your husband made you promise that if you ever felt this way again, you'd tell him. It would be better to never have sex again than to have sex with a wife who is feeling this way, but then that's not exactly an optimal solution either.

It just sucks so much that this sort of stuff happens (mostly to women) due to hormonal issues beyond their control.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> Oh wait...so you did leave? Sold the uber house and are in the process of divorce? And all this after a decade of living essentially the way I’m living now; emotionally divorced from the marriage, no longer reactive to or bothered by the daily B.S. of dealing with a spouse who hasn’t and won’t ever be one in the true sense of the word? Long distance? So you moved out but also moved far away? How’d that come to be? How’d your crazy wife react.


Long story - read below for details...

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/showthread.php?p=18836066

We both came to the conclusion that her move for work was a good breaking point. So we're separated, and relatively happy. Once she's a resident of the new state we'll move forward with the paperwork. That's a few months from now.


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## LeananSidhe (Feb 6, 2018)

Buddy400 said:


> I've been haunted by these posts for the last couple of days.
> 
> It's not like it's ever happened for me, but the thought of my wife fighting the urge to "want to punch me" me while I'm going down on her (and thinking that I'm pleasing her) is *SO* disturbing....
> 
> ...


It really does suck. Especially since doctors don’t really warn us about it. I had concerns and asked questions but they were brushed off. And in my case, I went on it after having kids and was always told that a woman’s sex drive went down after having children. So for several years I thought it was normal even though I wasn’t happy with it. It wasn’t until it got really bad (when I was on the depo shot) and I wanted to hit my husband during sex that I realized that it couldn’t be normal and there was something wrong. 

I do still feel guilty about those thoughts even though I know it wasn’t my fault.

And I’m incredibly lucky that I realized the problem and fixed it. I feel like if it would have continued I would have eventually forgotten that I used to enjoy sex and then I would have just thought I didn’t like sex and that was that. I could also feel myself caring less and less.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

Our societies are screwed up. You have to shop around to find a doctor who isn't either too starched to help or too wacky to be on anything like a real wavelength with humanity.

Doctors get just as embarrassed talking about sex as anyone else, and most of them can't do it. 

When Mary wanted me to ask about Cialis my doctor was reluctant to talk about it. I switched doctors, and asked if she was okay with talking about it. She said sure. I took Mary with me to my physical and we discussed it.

Now my blood pressure is creeping up and Mary wants me to bump up my meds yet again. I have no idea why she wants to bother. I am worth a fortune dead. I think she is worried I will survive a heart attack. Yea, that's it.


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## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

LeananSidhe said:


> It really does suck. Especially since doctors don’t really warn us about it. I had concerns and asked questions but they were brushed off.


This right here is why I ****ing hate (or did anyways) the entire medical industry. Nowadays, I have a straight up conversation with any doctor I interact with. We will work as a team on this condition and find the best route to take, but I am in no way obligated to listen to you to take some damn magic pill to cure all my ills. I don't want you to say stuff because you think that what I want to hear. I want the truth and all my options and their positives/negatives. 

Between the pharmaceutical industry and the medical industry, I think the whole mess is a big damn joke.

Women's hormonal health care is probably the worst, with men's being a close second.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Anon,
That is painful to read.

Real effort - sincere - genuine effort is such a powerful thing. 




Anon Pink said:


> Oh wait...so you did leave? Sold the uber house and are in the process of divorce? And all this after a decade of living essentially the way I’m living now; emotionally divorced from the marriage, no longer reactive to or bothered by the daily B.S. of dealing with a spouse who hasn’t and won’t ever be one in the true sense of the word? Long distance? So you moved out but also moved far away? How’d that come to be? How’d your crazy wife react?
> 
> Although that final snap for me happened 2 years ago, it’s only been the past few months that I realized I could control my own sex life and have, as a result, stopped having sex with him. I think he might be close to realizing I really have left the marriage now that sex isn’t happening at all.
> 
> ...


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