# Balancing 180, Divorce Busting, Love Banks, and Counseling



## gettingjacked (Jun 24, 2018)

Hey All,

I've been reading way too many things in trying to deal with my new situation. Its the classic I'm in love, but not in love fiasco. Here is a run down of the history so you know how it got this way.


We met on vacation 7 years ago, went wild for each other, I re-located to her city 6 months later. She had a 3 year old, I had money.
1 1/2 Years later we're engaged.
3 years in we have our 2nd kid (like back to back). This is when it starts going downhill. I blame it on the hormones and keep my distance and we go down to a 1 income household to avoid daycare.
There are some highlights but much of the next 3 years is a grind of me paying for stuff in return for obligatory sex. For whatever reason we both accepted this as normal. Obviously this should have been fixed a long time ago.
This spring she starts rebelling. Getting distant, drinking with friends, being short with me. Things women do right before they have an affair. I was the catalyst in this, that I said something regretful during a fight.
Late spring, I have an epiphany and make a huge change, albeit with a couple slip ups that you'll see in a moment. I'm calm with the kids, I stop working so much, and I start listening and paying much more attention. It's too late, the obligatory sex stops. "I love you but I'm not in love with you". She's numb. She's confused (but won't admit it). She attributes this to the last 3 years, but I feel it is a bit exaggerated.
As I go through stages of grief and anger, we iterate on a few weeks of ups and downs, with me prying for answers and being WAY too clingy. Finally I get to what I believe is the truth. She believes she has fallen out of love, but can't feel love for anyone (doesn't want to be with anyone else), and doesn't want to split up the kids. So we're at a stalemate.
I give an ultimatum that we will do counseling. She always said she was against counseling, but this time she agrees. After 1 week of MC and IC, I have a slip up, and try to push for some affection thinking we fast forwarded the heal process. Big mistake, I lost another week of progress. The IC however has revealed to her some weaknesses, and she actually accepts it and starts working on herself. I do the same.

So here we are. I've read all the 180 techniques about self-improvement and detaching, but my concern is that it will come off too cold. She has agreed to take counseling seriously and has no desire for an affair or a new partner. Now I can tell you I'm hitting the gym hard, dressing nicer, trying to make new friends, and being super-dad to be the best I can be.

But how do I treat her? Do I engage in conversation? The 180 calls for abrupt answers and generally avoiding shared space. I feel like I want to create a safe space for her to feel comfortable, and being pre-occupied will only bring up those old memories of me over-working all the time. Her #1 LL is quality time. But, I also don't want to be in the friend zone, and I know I can't force her to love me.

As far as clinginess, I dropped all that. No I love yous or advances. I'm not following her around the house. Just being nice and letting her make the moves.

Thanks for reading.


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## Trident (May 23, 2018)

What do you define as a slip up?

If you did the whole clingy needy begging and pleading thing then you've probably caused too much damage to fix, and worse it says volumes about how insecure you are. That needs to be fixed before you ever think about getting involved with someone else.

As far as this relationship goes? She checked out a long time ago. You simply refuse to accept that even though it's clear as day.

Now if you are unwilling to take my advice at this time, then sure go ahead and try the 180 but you can't pick and choose which parts to do. You're already saying "I'm going to come off too cold" as if that's a bad thing. It's not.


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## Betrayedone (Jan 1, 2014)

It's going to take more time for this to play out but you have to stay the course with the 180. The obvious answer will come.........soon. Be alert for toxic girlfriends........


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## gettingjacked (Jun 24, 2018)

Not sure I agree I did too much damage to fix it. If that were the case, wouldn't she be gone?

Maybe it is insecure, but maybe not. Do you have kids? Think about the desperation you would feel if you had to undo all the joint accounts and a 6,000 sqft house full of stuff and destroy the lives of two little innocent kids, plus probably also harm your stepchild. 

One of her primary complaints is that all I did was work for the last 3 years. So if I do the 180 and part of that is being out with friends or doing hobbies instead of spending time with her or helping rear the kids, then I think it is going to come off as selfish and the same old same. What am I missing?


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

You should check your phone bill just because.

And read up its short
https://archive.org/details/RobertGloverNoMoreMrNiceGuy


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## gettingjacked (Jun 24, 2018)

I did a little spying, it all checks out. She told me once before that in a previous relationship a doctor gave her meds for her sex drive. This is not a horny woman we're dealing with.

She has a low tolerance for stress and is very emotional, plus self-esteem issues from the first marriage. This makes it really easy for her to shut down. Until she deals with those problems in IC, I have to walk on eggshells to keep her level. She feels the same way about me, the eggshells part, so I'll deal with my own problems in IC (too assertive, not empathetic enough).

Trust me, she has no desire to be with other dudes. She has no desire at all. Eventually when she wakes up from this, she'll want something, and if I manage to wait this out long enough, I'll be there to capitalize.

But back to the original question. Is it ok to do the 180, but still give her positive reinforcement and engagement when she initiates it? If I start becoming distant or pre-occupied, she'll pick up on it like a bloodhound.


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## gettingjacked (Jun 24, 2018)

Would it be out of bounds to start openly dating? Take off my wedding ring?

I'll try to get through this no more mr. nice guy quickly. I know in phase 5 of the men's married life sex primer it calls for open dating. I sort of felt like I was in phase 5 after reading it.

just trying to get a sense for the boundaries, i'm willing to be aggressive if necessary, it just seems like there is so much grey area


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Let's stop a moment and take a step back and reevaluate our goals and objectives here. 

I think you have misunderstood what The 180 is and what it is not. 

Are you or are you not trying to reconcile and save this marriage and improve your relationship????

If the answer is yes, then the 180 and dating and involving yourself with other women is completely asinine. What are you? 15 years old here???

If you are working to save the marriage and relationship, then you need to be all-in and working with the counselor/therapist and working with your wife in trying to bring the two of you back into the fold. 

The 180 was never intended to be therapy or a means to 'save' a relationship. 

It is a series of steps and activities to break away from a toxic relationship in which you are being mistreated and a means to get out of a bad relationship without getting used, manipulated or suckered in to being someone's b1+ch that you are trying to hold on to. 

So if you are trying to work collaboratively to foster and preserve and improve the relationship - The 180 is the last thing you should be doing. 

If the relationship is toxic and you know you have to get out of it to save yourself, then The 180 is useful as the most efficient means to cut your losses and exit the relationship without allowing yourself to be used and manipulated by your partner.


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## KM87 (Nov 5, 2017)

@gettingjacked

As a wife of a workaholic, and a woman whose primary love language is quality time, I'd advise you to not start spending all of your spare time out and about with friends or other women. That will be the final blow to your wife's already dwindling confidence in herself, you, and your marriage.

Be there - for her and your kids. Be consistent. Be ready to talk when she is. Give her some time to see that you've made this change she's probably desperately wanted for a long time. Because, if she's anything like me, I'd have to have some time to get past my skepticism that my husband is, in fact, finally hearing me. 

Having your partner choose everything else over meeting your basic need in a relationship does a lot of damage to the core of who you are - and the foundation your relarionship. If you're serious about wanting to help your wife re-engage in your marriage, you have to do the work and put in the time you've starved her of over the last 3 years.


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## gettingjacked (Jun 24, 2018)

Thanks guys, this is immensely helpful. The 180 to me seemed so unnatural which is why I was second guessing myself.

So I'll be a stalwart husband who is always self-improving, and consistently supporting the household without being clingy or needy, while she takes as much time as she wants. I won't be pressing her to validate myself or show any other signs of weakness.

She does have toxic behaviors, we both screwed this marriage up, I haven't told you all the things she has done to me. But that needs to be water under the bridge while we both go to IC and fix our own demons. The problems we have were brought into this marriage and it was just covered up with the honeymoon effect.

What an arduous process!!


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## KM87 (Nov 5, 2017)

Good luck, @gettingjacked! 

But don't forget that, after you've been consistently investng back into your wife, family and marriage (long enough to prove you've made a change), it is a two way street. As you said, your wife has also brought her own problems into the relationship. And if she's not willing to also put in the time and effort to help change the dynamic of your marriage, you are fighting a losing battle.


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## gettingjacked (Jun 24, 2018)

I agree. She talked to her family about this and got furious when they even mentioned the word divorce. I think she is invested and the IC got through to her right away. On the flip side, she isn't naturally as hard as a worker as I am. And she goes off of gut feeling, not logic. Therefore when we get exercises from the IC or MC she thinks its dumb and goes into a holding pattern. I did see her trying to power through the 5 languages of love book at one point, but now she seems to have lost interest.

I guess we'll see. If this doesn't work at least we'll be 100% sure that its time to call it quits.

I'm banking on the fact that once her self-esteem improves and she is feeling all good, she'll start to want things, and I'll be there to provide them. I don't think anyone, regardless of sex drive, wants to go through life not experiencing physical touch and sex.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Are you really asking if it's ok to start dating other women while still married?

I dont know what to say to that. 

What did you say to her that you feel caused this?


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## gettingjacked (Jun 24, 2018)

lifeistooshort said:


> Are you really asking if it's ok to start dating other women while still married?
> 
> I dont know what to say to that.
> 
> What did you say to her that you feel caused this?


The only dumb questions are the ones that aren't asked. I figured it was a no! HAHA

What did I say? Not sure to which point you were asking or if you just mean in general. We argue about a bunch of stuff, where both of us are at fault.

The history has been like this:
Me: pressuring for sex, talking about work too much, complaining about money, being short with kids, being distant when I'm resenting something
Her: yelling at me, name calling, using sex as a weapon, exaggerating, projecting things onto me like telling me how I think and what I'm going to do (to tip the scales in her favor)

And the new way should look like this:
Me: working less, listening better, not being afraid to challenge her when I disagree with something (instead of being resentful), stop asking for sex
Her: get control of emotions, stop pleasing others when it hurts herself, grow self-esteem, better coping skills, stop watching so much tv and do something constructive


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

lifeistooshort said:


> Are you really asking if it's ok to start dating other women while still married?
> 
> I dont know what to say to that.
> 
> What did you say to her that you feel caused this?





gettingjacked said:


> The only dumb questions are the ones that aren't asked. I figured it was a no! HAHA
> 
> What did I say? Not sure to which point you were asking or if you just mean in general. We argue about a bunch of stuff, where both of us are at fault.
> 
> ...


You mentioned saying something that you felt caused her to withdraw and that you regretted it. 

I was wondering what that was. Words can really hurt, as we all know.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

gettingjacked said:


> I did a little spying, it all checks out. She told me once before that in a previous relationship a doctor gave her meds for her sex drive. This is not a horny woman we're dealing with.
> 
> She has a low tolerance for stress and is very emotional, plus self-esteem issues from the first marriage. This makes it really easy for her to shut down. Until she deals with those problems in IC, I have to walk on eggshells to keep her level. She feels the same way about me, the eggshells part, so I'll deal with my own problems in IC (too assertive, not empathetic enough).
> 
> ...


Why are you doing the 180? Can you please explain?


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## gettingjacked (Jun 24, 2018)

EleGirl said:


> Why are you doing the 180? Can you please explain?


I guess I'm not now. It seems counter-intuitive.

My wife said something rude to me this morning. In the past I never confronted her on this, and the MC pointed this out. I let her know that it hurts and it wasn't positive words of affirmation.

Not sure what her reaction will be. She acts like a real bi*ch. I say good night and good morning and she just ignores me.


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## Trident (May 23, 2018)

gettingjacked said:


> My wife said something rude to me this morning. In the past I never confronted her on this, and the MC pointed this out. I let her know that it hurts and it wasn't positive words of affirmation.


Your response was rather lame. She says something hurtful and you say "That hurt my feelings and it wasn't positive words of affirmation".

Maybe you need to toughen up a bit. Weak is not attractive. 



gettingjacked said:


> Not sure what her reaction will be. She acts like a real bi*ch. I say good night and good morning and she just ignores me.


Stop saying good night and good morning then. All you're doing is getting crapped on. Seriously I think you are wasting your time trying to fix this, she clearly dislikes you and shows you no respect.


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## SentHereForAReason (Oct 25, 2017)

This whole thread sounds like another thread that stopped getting updated (different name). Strange, just strange and not going to help OP one bit if that's the case.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

gettingjacked said:


> *Would it be out of bounds to start openly dating? *Take off my wedding ring?
> 
> *I'll try to get through this no more mr. nice guy quickly.* I know in phase 5 of the men's married life sex primer it calls for open dating. I sort of felt like I was in phase 5 after reading it.
> 
> just trying to get a sense for the boundaries, i'm willing to be aggressive if necessary, it just seems like there is so much grey area


First, yes it would be out of bounds as you have two children by her according to your post.

Second don't skim No More Mr. Nice Guy, study it. The read MW Davis book the Sex Starved Marriage and compare the two approaches. They both urge you to stop being clingy. They both urge you to "Get a Life" that is fix yourself and change yourself for the better both emotionally and physically, so your wife can see you as a new and different person. MW Davis has great suggestions on various 180's----if something doesn't work, try something else until you find an approach to your wife that does work.

Good luck.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

gettingjacked said:


> Thanks guys, this is immensely helpful. The 180 to me seemed so unnatural which is why I was second guessing myself.
> 
> So I'll be a stalwart husband who is always self-improving, and consistently supporting the household without being clingy or needy, while she takes as much time as she wants. I won't be pressing her to validate myself or show any other signs of weakness.
> 
> ...


You need to add Lovebusters to your reading list. Your posts are full of them.

I'm FLABBERGASTED you think you should DATE?!?!?


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## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

personofinterest said:


> I'm FLABBERGASTED you think you should DATE?!?!?


Someone gave him **** for that a month ago, and he acknowledged it was dumb.

If you read the very first sentence in his very first post, you see he's overwhelmed himself with a tonne of ''advice'' from various sources and he's trying to figure it out. He's made great strides in his thinking over this short time. Give him a bit of grace, k?


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

The 180 is stupid HS bs...like pretending someone isn't really there. Why play pretend? Work on your IDGAF attitude, dont be afraid to knock her down a few notches, neg her. Go find some female friends if she doesnt want you, you dont have to sleep with them, but at least you will show her you have options.


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## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

I disagree, the 180 has a purpose, just not in this fellow's case.


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

I just can't understand. When, true love is not there...it isn't there. Why fight it, why force it. Whenever you get the statement: I love you, but I'm not in love. BELIEVE IT. It is true. All you are doing is delaying the inevitable.


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