# Need a Sanity Check - Family Friend and Wife



## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

There is a family friend coming to visit within the next 2 weeks from Europe. He and his 2 sons will be here for about 10 days. We're in our 40s, and the family friend is going to be 50. My wife has 3 siblings, and her older brother is the closest to the family friend. The friend first met my in-laws back when he was a teenager for a student exchange program, and he's the same age as my BIL. So the gist of the thread is that he wants to have my wife, her two brothers (her sister will be out of state) and this guy's son go out for drinks at a bar. He doesn't want me to go. My wife's 2 brothers are single, so there are no other in-laws in the equation. I will be the only one excluded from the rest of the group who are around the same age. When I first found out, I heard that he made his wish clear to at least 2 people that I know of - my wife and my MIL. While I'm not this guy's biggest fan, I was hurt that I was being excluded since I thought that it would have been a fun time to go out to a bar to have drinks with my BIL's and my wife. We almost never do the bar scene, so this would be something different than we normally do. My wife showed empathy about it and she said that she wouldn't go. At the time we first discussed the situation, she let me infer that this was the guy's doing and possibly my MIL's (at least letting me think that this was possible). 

However, last night I was curious and I found this exchange between my wife and the guy on the FB IM:

Earlier parts of the thread is innocent small talk exchanging pleasantries

HIM: My life...is like a Rollercoaster! Hang on tight...cos' it will be a white-knuckle ride! Looking forward to seeing you guys this summer! I hope you will be free for a beer with your siblings on at least one night?

HIM: You can get P9 to babysit (note, youngest kid we have is 11...)

WIFE: Looking forward to it!!! You only live once, ride it to the fullest.

HIM: Jesus, P9's wife, I could do with just a little bit of plain sailing! I'm just fecked!

WIFE: Was planning on it. He did last year. LOL. He can stay his ass home.

HIM: Good plan! Leave his ass at home. We need a catch up with the (her maid name)!

WIFE: That's the only way to live. Plain sailing is boring.

Then more innocent small talk. This exchange occurred in June.

After seeing this I confronted her. I told her it felt like she stabbed me in the back over this. Her response was "she thought she was doing me a favor since I don't like him that much". The way I see it is that this guy can come in from the outside and has the "power" to determine who can go and who can be excluded in activities.

Tell me what you guys think - am I overreacting or is the pain on my part justified? I'm open to your thoughts either way.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

no way, no how should your W be forcing you to stay home so she can go on a binge drinking date with another man.

I would be beyond p8$$ed if my W suggested anything like this. It almost like they are planning to cuckold you.

She also has no respect for you, giving how she is deriding you to the OM. If this were me, I'd be tempted to take the kids away for the weekend, w/o any knowledge of where you are going and leave a copy of divorce papers on the table.


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## vauxhall101 (Jul 23, 2017)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> After seeing this I confronted her. I told her it felt like she stabbed me in the back over this. Her response was "she thought she was doing me a favor since I don't like him that much". The way I see it is that this guy can come in from the outside and has the "power" to determine who can go and who can be excluded in activities.
> 
> Tell me what you guys think - am I overreacting or is the pain on my part justified? I'm open to your thoughts either way.


Marriage is supposed to be the two of you 'against the world'. This sounds like a betrayal to me. Not a big betrayal, but a betrayal none the less. She shouldn't be talking about you that way behind your back, and I think she owes you an apology which she doesn't seem willing to give, instead pretending (to you and probably herself) that she was 'doing you a favour'. Just my thoughts.


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## tropicalbeachiwish (Jun 1, 2016)

I don't think they're planning on cuckolding you, as there are plenty of witnesses invited. This guy just doesn't like you for whatever reason. He really doesn't like you. The comment from your wife about leaving your ass at home was mean. That was the moment that she should have stood up for you and failed to do so. Because this guy has intentionally made it clear that you are not invited, your wife should make a stand and not go. Allowing him to disrespect you in turn disrespects her.


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## m00nman (Nov 29, 2014)

I'm thinking that there is some context here. What did you do last year that she felt necessary for you to "stay your ass home?" Was she upset with you from something that happened before this?


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> Earlier parts of the thread is innocent small talk exchanging pleasantries
> 
> HIM: My life...is like a Rollercoaster! Hang on tight...cos' it will be a white-knuckle ride! Looking forward to seeing you guys this summer! I hope you will be free for a beer with your siblings on at least one night?
> 
> ...


I have a different take on the situation. From the limited FB messages, it looks like maybe the family friend has had a rough couple of years and wants to spend some time with his long time friends catching up. Maybe there's stuff he wants to share with them but would be uncomfortable sharing with you present? By your own admission doesn't sound like you are on friendly terms with the man which would make open conversation awkward. 

Trust me, I've been in your shoes. My husband's roommate in college is not my favorite person in the world. When he visited us last year he specifically asked it to be "just the boys". At first I was upset but then thought "why would I want to be somewhere where I'm not wanted". Anyways, turns out he was going through some serious stuff (depression/suicidal) and just want to hang out with close friends before entering a mental health facility for treatment. I'm glad I didn't take it personally and just wrote it off as "boys night out".

Instead of looking at this as a lost opportunity to hang out with your wife and BILs, use it as an opportunity to make plans with them for a later date.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

It's possible that she's just trying to catch up with an old friend without having to worry about how little you two like each other, or how bored you'll be while they talk about events and people that you know nothing about. 

As in, she may really have been trying to do you a favor.

If you actually think it would be fun, then your wife should invite you along. Too bad for old friend dude if he doesn't like it.

ETA: Just read Lila's post, and that makes sense to me too. Maybe instead of being quite as mean as I was suggesting, she could ask to invite you along.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

Nice backpedaling on her part with the excuse disguised with your best interests in mind.
You either go with them or she doesn't go. Nothing else is reasonable in this case.

I have no problem with old friends or family catching up... but intentionally excluding you and her not even mentioning the possibility you could join? I don't think it would sit well with me if I were in your shoes.
Just my 2c.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Lila said:


> I have a different take on the situation. From the limited FB messages, it looks like maybe the family friend has had a rough couple of years and wants to spend some time with his long time friends catching up. Maybe there's stuff he wants to share with them but would be uncomfortable sharing with you present? By your own admission doesn't sound like you are on friendly terms with the man which would make open conversation awkward.
> 
> Trust me, I've been in your shoes. My husband's roommate in college is not my favorite person in the world. When he visited us last year he specifically asked it to be "just the boys". At first I was upset but then thought "why would I want to be somewhere where I'm not wanted". Anyways, turns out he was going through some serious stuff (depression/suicidal) and just want to hang out with close friends before entering a mental health facility for treatment. I'm glad I didn't take it personally and just wrote it off as "boys night out".
> 
> Instead of looking at this as a lost opportunity to hang out with your wife and BILs, use it as an opportunity to make plans with them for a later date.


Yeah, Lila just needs to stay her ass at home and babysit.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

m00nman said:


> I'm thinking that there is some context here. What did you do last year that she felt necessary for you to "stay your ass home?" Was she upset with you from something that happened before this?


Not that I'm aware of, but I have always tried to extend myself to this guy when he visits.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

Seems like she wants to hang out with her brothers and the old family friend without you. It's not like they're planning some secret rendezvous. They've made their plans to meet up for drinks and to catch up known to you and their mother, for Pete's sake!

If there were hints of inappropriate feelings or inappropriate intentions or if this was some kind of regular occurrence, I'd have a different opinion. But, from the look of things, all the woman wants to do is hang out for an evening by herself like a gawddam grown up human being, have a few drinks, while catching up with her brothers and a long time family friend who lives on another continent.

Yeesh.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

Thanks for the responses so far. While you an never know 100% if a spouse is cheating on you, I'm 99% sure that everything is on the level. There are zero red flags that would make me suspicious of infidelity with any other man let alone this guy.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

MJJEAN said:


> Seems like she wants to hang out with her brothers and the old family friend without you. It's not like they're planning some secret rendezvous. They've made their plans to meet up for drinks and to catch up known to you and their mother, for Pete's sake!
> 
> If there were hints of inappropriate feelings or inappropriate intentions or if this was some kind of regular occurrence, I'd have a different opinion. But, from the look of things, all the woman wants to do is hang out for an evening by herself like a gawddam grown up human being to have a few drinks and catch up with her brothers and a long time family friend who lives on another continent.


I can understand this if the context weren't plans made without even running it by Plan9 first, even as a courtesy to him, not only that but the messages dripped with contempt and taking him for granted. No, I don't think there is likely to be anything untoward happening, but geez...unseen by Plan9 and later to Plan9 face...one of those things is not like the other...


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

MJJEAN said:


> Seems like she wants to hang out with her brothers and the old family friend without you. It's not like they're planning some secret rendezvous. They've made their plans to meet up for drinks and to catch up known to you and their mother, for Pete's sake!
> 
> If there were hints of inappropriate feelings or inappropriate intentions or if this was some kind of regular occurrence, I'd have a different opinion. But, from the look of things, all the woman wants to do is hang out for an evening by herself like a gawddam grown up human being, have a few drinks, while catching up with her brothers and a long time family friend who lives on another continent.
> 
> Yeesh.


there is serious flirting and dissing of P9 in the FB posts. Plain as day.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

samyeagar said:


> Yeah, Lila just needs to stay her ass at home and babysit.


Yep, and make sure to have sammiches prepped and ready for when he gets home.  

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## Spitfire (Jun 6, 2015)

I'd be pissed and feel totally disrespected. Turn it around on her. Hypothetically, you and your sisters are meeting "an old family friend" from out of the country at the bar. She wants your wife to stay her ass home and watch the kids. You agree that's a good idea and you're doing your wife a favor in the process. LMAO that any female here could somehow justify those actions.


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## tropicalbeachiwish (Jun 1, 2016)

Lila said:


> Yep, and make sure to have sammiches prepped and ready for when he gets home.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


:rofl::rofl:


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Is she insists on still going and leaving you at home, I would find a babysitter and go out myself.


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## Middle of Everything (Feb 19, 2012)

I can see why you dont like him. In just that brief exchange of messages I get the picture of a douche that thinks he Bodee from Point Break. I also could see why you wouldnt be thrilled with your wife around him. In the exchange she seemed more worried about apprearing "cool" to him instead of saying "no my husband doesnt need to play babysitter".

Vauxhall said it well already. A betrayal. Not a big one but she doesnt need to treat you like that behind your back and then lie about it to your face.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Well, my ass wouldn't be staying home. Anyway you cut it, excluding a spouse so one can catch up with an old friend of the opposite sex is disrespectful. Since his son will be joining the gang, what is the harm with another family member who wasn't around in their hey-day joining in?

Your wife's half-assed trash talk was uncalled for and she owes you an apology. Someone needs to educate the foreigner that a parent doesn't 'babysit' their own children.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Spitfire said:


> I'd be pissed and feel totally disrespected. Turn it around on her. Hypothetically, you and your sisters are meeting "an old family friend" from out of the country at the bar. She wants your wife to stay her ass home and watch the kids. You agree that's a good idea and you're doing your wife a favor in the process. LMAO that any female here could somehow justify those actions.


Well, except the friend simply suggested Plan9 stay home and watch the kids. It was Plan9's wife who threw out the ...

"WIFE: Was planning on it. He did last year. LOL. He can stay his ass home."

Quite rude, disrespectful, and presumptuous in any context.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

naiveonedave said:


> there is serious flirting and dissing of P9 in the FB posts. Plain as day.


I didn't read any of that as flirtatious. Not even a hint.


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## cynthiaow2 (Jul 18, 2017)

Your pain is justified because your wife betrayed you. This makes me question how much she loves you. Ridiculing your husband with another man is not a FAVOR! Does she think you're stupid or what?
How can she be friends with someone who doesn't like her husband to the point of excluding him from something that was meant to be fun ? 

It looks to me like they have feelings for each other, DON'T let her see him.



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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

MJJEAN said:


> I didn't read any of that as flirtatious. Not even a hint.


really? Total flirtation. I read it again and think it is worse than I originally thought.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

farsidejunky said:


> Is she insists on still going and leaving you at home, I would find a babysitter and go out myself.


This is what I ended up doing minus babysitter. GF and I took our sons to Top Golf. Boys knocked the balls while she and I enjoyed music, a margarita, and a great company. Lots of fun. 

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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

Wow your wife was totally disrespected you..totally...instead of putting that guy in his place she did not have your back, she basically throwing you under the bus...please please tell me that he is not staying with you....

also you might want to tell him that your Fing ass will be not at home but else where with your wife...and he can go to fing hell.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

cynthiaow2 said:


> Your pain is justified because your wife betrayed you. This makes me question how much she loves you. Ridiculing your husband with another man is not a FAVOR! Does she think you're stupid or what?
> How can she be friends with someone who doesn't like her husband to the point of excluding him from something that was meant to be fun ?
> 
> It looks to me like they have feelings for each other, DON'T let her see him.
> ...


I'm not necessarily seeing the exclusion part as the biggest problem here. It was the way the exclusion was done. The two of them planned it that way in a really quite disparaging way. Especially with the cutesy "LOL" thrown in there.

There have been things my wife has done with friends without me, some where she has indicated she'd rather I not join them, but there was no presumption that I couldn't, just that she knows me and what I am comfortable with...simply, I have never been explicitly excluded, nor been told that if she couldn't go alone, she wouldn't go at all. And I have never seen her tell a male friend that I can just stay my ass home and clean the house while they go out...


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

Personally I would NEVER accept your W's response about you "staying your ass home".

That's my biggest concern. Has she talked **** about you in the past? Has there ever been a time where you were the butt of a joke in a setting with others around? Is she ever dismissive of you?

That statement alone is very bad.

People who respect their SO simply NEVER take a side AGAINST them. It's incompatible with respect.

I would bring it up again and get to the bottom of things. Is there something going on that she resents about you? Or was there a prior relationship or chemistry (unrequited even)? Seems it has to be one or the other. If it's neither, that's just as bad - that just means she considers his feelings and emotions MORE than yours. She would not have agreed with him otherwise.

Very, very troubling.

Oh and BTW I am not overreacting. It probably might seem so to many TAM members,but when you consider the crappy things many T members are trying to deal with in their marriages, that reaction would seem reasonable. However I'm talking as someone with decades in my relationship and I've never been treated that way. So my perspective is coming from a relationship where we respect one another.

In your shoes I might get a sitter and just go - not even tell her ahead of time - it shouldn't matter. That is assuming my w hadn't already completely shown remorse and worked it out ahead of time to my satisfaction (though I can't imagine how) or just decided on her own that she wasn't going (she would do this even if I encouraged her to go because she would value harmony in our marriage over meeting with anyone outside the marriage). That's why I might go with her as an accommodation - because she would not go otherwise. 


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

To add more context to this (and I wish I could have thought of everything in the OP), my wife claims she doesn't even like him. She's claimed this well before they ever did the bar thing last year - which was the first time they did something like this before where I was excluded. Last year, I didn't know that I was unwelcome and I don't recall the specifics, but I thought I was traveling that day. She was never close to him for many years as best as I can tell, and like me she thinks he's an arrogant ass. While we have both treated him cordially, we've both also called him on his sh!t and/or were not afraid to disagree with him. My wife talked to my MIL yesterday about it (before I found the text exchange), and MIL supposedly did tell the visitor that I should be included in the meet up. She also told my wife that she wishes that he doesn't come to visit next year. 

My wife has apologized for the comments 4 times yesterday, and I was candid with her on how I felt disrespected. I told her that I will not be involved in any activities that includes him. I will not see him at all this year. My wife told me that she will not go to the bar and she will also stay away. She says that now, but will she want to go as the time gets closer? IDK. Were her apologies coming from a place of remorse or regret? IDK. Right now, I'm not making any small talk - just about dinner and the kids ATM. Just feel hurt and stabbed in the back.


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

farsidejunky said:


> Is she insists on still going and leaving you at home, I would find a babysitter and go out myself.


* puts on passive aggressive hat *

Screw that, babysitter yes, but rather than go out myself I'm going along with my wife. Don't care that I don't like the dude and I'm not wanted, I'm coming with her.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> To add more context to this (and I wish I could have thought of everything in the OP), *my wife claims she doesn't even like him.* She's claimed this well before they ever did the bar thing last year - which was the first time they did something like this before where I was excluded. Last year, I didn't know that I was unwelcome and I don't recall the specifics, but I thought I was traveling that day. She was never close to him for many years as best as I can tell, and like me she thinks he's an arrogant ass. While we have both treated him cordially, we've both also called him on his sh!t and/or were not afraid to disagree with him. My wife talked to my MIL yesterday about it (before I found the text exchange), and MIL supposedly did tell the visitor that I should be included in the meet up. She also told my wife that she wishes that he doesn't come to visit next year.
> 
> My wife has apologized for the comments 4 times yesterday, and I was candid with her on how I felt disrespected. I told her that I will not be involved in any activities that includes him. I will not see him at all this year. My wife told me that she will not go to the bar and she will also stay away. She says that now, but will she want to go as the time gets closer? IDK. Were her apologies coming from a place of remorse or regret? IDK. Right now, I'm not making any small talk - just about dinner and the kids ATM. Just feel hurt and stabbed in the back.



Oh, hell no! THat is complete BS, and the rest about being an arrogant ass and all that. Disparaging trash talk is one thing, but to do it with someone she describes like that? I originally gave the benefit of the doubt, but I think he is playing the PUA script, and has likely had your wife on a slow burn for a very long time.

ETA: Seriously Plan9, if you were a new poster here, I would be sitting back waiting for the troll bait to end...You need to stop this and stop this hard.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

BTW it is very common (at least in my generation) for a girl to admire her older brothers friends. They come pre-vetted as good guys and they are seen in a positive light usually in the context they see them in. It's an older guy that isn't threatening and there are many attractive things about that situation. I know I'm treated with a lot of respect by the little sisters (ha ha now in their 40's and 50's so not little any more) because that just carries on because we really only casually run into each other (virtually online often) over the years.

It's historically common to get set up as a couple it's way.

Therefore I see this as the type of situation to view with a special interest


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## Middle of Everything (Feb 19, 2012)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> My wife told me that she will not go to the bar and she will also stay away. She says that now, but will she want to go as the time gets closer? IDK. Were her apologies coming from a place of remorse or regret? IDK.


Thats when the proof will be in the pudding. She has apologized enough now. Come game time?...........

Seems an awful lot of deference is being paid to some douche that people claim to not even like.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

Middle of Everything said:


> Thats when the proof will be in the pudding. She has apologized enough now. Come game time?...........
> *
> Seems an awful lot of deference is being paid to some douche that people claim to not even like.*


No doubt. It does not compute.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

samyeagar said:


> Oh, hell no! THat is complete BS, and the rest about being an arrogant ass and all that. Disparaging trash talk is one thing, but to do it with someone she describes like that? I originally gave the benefit of the doubt, but I think he is playing the PUA script, and has likely had your wife on a slow burn for a very long time.
> 
> ETA: Seriously Plan9, if you were a new poster here, I would be sitting back waiting for the troll bait to end...You need to stop this and stop this hard.


I actually mentioned to her the other day that I think he may be interested in her. To be fair, they don't communicate that much - maybe 30 posts over a 2 year period. I get your point and I have a lot of thinking to do. Truth be told, I'd like for her to unfriend him from FB and to completely cut him out of our lives. If my MIL and BIL's want to hang with them, fine. But I don't want me, my wife or my kids to ever associate with the asshat. I feel highly disrespected tbh. She knows exactly where I stand on this and with him.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> To add more context to this (and I wish I could have thought of everything in the OP), my wife claims she doesn't even like him. She's claimed this well before they ever did the bar thing last year - which was the first time they did something like this before where I was excluded. Last year, I didn't know that I was unwelcome and I don't recall the specifics, but I thought I was traveling that day. She was never close to him for many years as best as I can tell, and like me she thinks he's an arrogant ass. While we have both treated him cordially, we've both also called him on his sh!t and/or were not afraid to disagree with him. My wife talked to my MIL yesterday about it (before I found the text exchange), and MIL supposedly did tell the visitor that I should be included in the meet up. She also told my wife that she wishes that he doesn't come to visit next year.
> 
> 
> 
> My wife has apologized for the comments 4 times yesterday, and I was candid with her on how I felt disrespected. I told her that I will not be involved in any activities that includes him. I will not see him at all this year. My wife told me that she will not go to the bar and she will also stay away. She says that now, but will she want to go as the time gets closer? IDK. Were her apologies coming from a place of remorse or regret? IDK. Right now, I'm not making any small talk - just about dinner and the kids ATM. Just feel hurt and stabbed in the back.




Your reaction is very important. Rethink the silent treatment - that's passive aggressive and not strong.

It's ok to be angry but throttle down the hurt. Hurt is internal and anger is external as an emotion. A man that gets angry is often seen as strong whereas a hurt man seems vulnerable and is sitting in the victim seat.

Talk to her and let her know you're still angry but don't want someone else to interfere in your relationship.

It's also ok to say you've thought about it and have changed your mind. Don't feel locked into any decision you make. You're allowed to reflect and change your response.

So a less drama oriented approach might be to say - I accept your apologies but am still a bit angry about this. Let's both go and put this behind us. No need for extra drama where we're the focus when this guy comes into town. I like your brothers so I think we should be able to have a good time.

Something to think about 


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

samyeagar said:


> Oh, hell no! THat is complete BS, and the rest about being an arrogant ass and all that. Disparaging trash talk is one thing, but to do it with someone she describes like that? I originally gave the benefit of the doubt, but I think he is playing the PUA script, and has likely had your wife on a slow burn for a very long time.
> 
> ETA: Seriously Plan9, if you were a new poster here, I would be sitting back waiting for the troll bait to end...You need to stop this and stop this hard.


I agree. And if she doesn't like him, why the f is she facebooking him, dissing you in the process and flirting pretty heavily with him. It doesn't add up.

I think she is regretting getting caught. Probably even making up stuff that her and your MIL talked about.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

"Wife, I hear your apologies and want to believe them, but then I read your words to him...do I believe those as well? Which version is you? The one who respects me, or the one who doesn't?"


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

samyeagar said:


> ETA: Seriously Plan9, if you were a new poster here, I would be sitting back waiting for the troll bait to end...You need to stop this and stop this hard.


That bad, huh? That's why the phrase "Physician, heal thyself" is more difficult when it's personal!


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## Taxman (Dec 21, 2016)

Under no circumstances would I allow my wife into a bar with this son of a bi+ch. Secondarily, I would inform her that her disrespect of me in this circumstance has wounded both myself and the marriage. Impress upon her that he is to be ghosted. If, when asshat hits town, she suddenly wants to go to the bar "to keep peace in the family" (this is an expression my wife has used to get me to do things when I hate doing them, usually involving people who have disrespected us in the past), you will inform her, that she is welcome to go, just that either you will accompany her, and you will not be responsible for any outbursts that may occur. If she wants to go alone, then fine, just tell her to not bother coming home afterward.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Your wife claims she doesn't even like him and you think she thinks he's an arrogant ass. So, where did that exchange come from? If your wife were a teenager, I could see her trying to impress an older guy with the big talk. But, she's in her forties.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> No doubt. It does not compute.


Did she validate your feelings of anger, and feeling disrespected by her? Is she offering to not go because she thinks it is the right thing to not go, or is she doing it to placate you? Her phrasing and framing is very important.

The closest analogy I can come up with...in the ongoing context with my wife and her outward expressions of raw attraction to other men, while remaining verbally reserved and filtered about me, she was all giddy for the weeks leading up to her and my step daughter going to see the latest Magic Mike movie...god I wish I could have been the subject of even a tenth of the drool, but I digress...I asked her to at least refrain from engaging in the drooling on her Facebook page. She agreed, and followed through, but made it pretty clear she was only doing it out of respect for me, and it really seemed like she saw it as some big sacrifice on her part, like she was martyring herself for me. No, it didn't feel as if it was out of any kind of respect. It felt like placation, and done grudgingly. There was no validation of my feelings.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> That bad, huh? That's why the phrase "Physician, heal thyself" is more difficult when it's personal!


Seriously man, you should know from my posting here, that I am not one who typically rushes to judgement in these things, and do typically give benefit of the doubt. In this case, from your OP, I didn't really think anything beyond just disrespect. But what you just said a bit ago lit my spidey sense up like the noonday sun. No, I don't think she is cheating on you, and likely hasn't, but I have no doubt that her heart goes pitter patter just a bit more when she is thinking about him. I can pisture a bunch of high school girls sitting about talking about how big of an ass this guy is, how they just hate him so much, how he is a total douchecanoe, and they'd neeeeever even think about anything with him, all the while playing the pick me dance with him in their own minds...


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

Not sure who, but someone asked if she's ever disrespected me before or made me the butt of jokes with people. I have never seen anything like that from her before - ever. I have never taken the role of a "nice guy" in our relationship and I always thought we had mutual respect for each other. The marriage has been quite good for a long time - AFAIK. Before this hit this week, no red flags of anything wrong going on, and honestly I believed that a number of people in the family think the guy is an arrogant ass. My SIL will intentionally cut her trip short to avoid interacting with the man. As of this week though, it appears that may not have been the case.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

Blondilocks said:


> Your wife claims she doesn't even like him and you think she thinks he's an arrogant ass. So, where did that exchange come from? If your wife were a teenager, I could see her trying to impress an older guy with the big talk. But, she's in her forties.




But he'll always be big brothers friend. That's a special category of man for many women (not you ******locks because you're a well adjusted adult - but many keep childhood feelings locked up in their hope chest)

[edit "hope" chest not the Freudian slip I typed]

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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

samyeagar said:


> Did she validate your feelings of anger, and feeling disrespected by her? Is she offering to not go because she thinks it is the right thing to not go, or is she doing it to placate you? Her phrasing and framing is very important.
> 
> The closest analogy I can come up with...in the ongoing context with my wife and her outward expressions of raw attraction to other men, while remaining verbally reserved and filtered about me, she was all giddy for the weeks leading up to her and my step daughter going to see the latest Magic Mike movie...god I wish I could have been the subject of even a tenth of the drool, but I digress...I asked her to at least refrain from engaging in the drooling on her Facebook page. She agreed, and followed through, but made it pretty clear she was only doing it out of respect for me, and it really seemed like she saw it as some big sacrifice on her part, like she was martyring herself for me. No, it didn't feel as if it was out of any kind of respect. It felt like placation, and done grudgingly. There was no validation of my feelings.


Honestly, I'm not sure. It breaks my heart to say that, because I should know.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

Arrogant guys often play the PUA script because when you throw it at 20 women, at least 5% have low self esteem or have some seething resentment sufficient to get picked up by the a hole and feel validated even by a jerk.

Not saying your w is that, but I do think he could be. Those guys are toxic because some would sleep with their best friends wife if given the chance 

No way she texts 30 times over 2 years with someone she isn't either interested in or admire in some way


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

naiveonedave said:


> really? Total flirtation. I read it again and think it is worse than I originally thought.


Here it is in it's entirety. Lemme give you my translation


"Earlier parts of the thread is innocent small talk exchanging pleasantries

HIM: My life...is like a Rollercoaster! Hang on tight...cos' it will be a white-knuckle ride! Looking forward to seeing you guys this summer! I hope you will be free for a beer with your siblings on at least one night?

HIM: You can get P9 to babysit (note, youngest kid we have is 11...)

_*He's going through some things. His life is full of ups and downs right now. He wants to meet up with OP's wife and her siblings for a beer. He's aware she has children and might not have a sitter (some people won't leave an 11 year old alone at home) and knows she also has a husband who is also responsible for childcare, so maybe he can watch the kid.
_
WIFE: Looking forward to it!!! You only live once, ride it to the fullest.

_*She is looking forward to seeing her long time family friend and she's telling him to embrace the insanity. Life's a rollercoaster full of ups and downs, we only live once, so enjoy the insane ride.
_
HIM: Jesus, P9's wife, I could do with just a little bit of plain sailing! I'm just fecked!

_*He's stressed and would like things to get easier for a while. Too much uphill, not enough downhill.
_
WIFE: Was planning on it. He did last year. LOL. He can stay his ass home.

_*She was planning on having OP watch the kid since OP watched the kid last year. He can be the one to stay home. It literally means exactly what is sounds like it means. 
_
_"X can stay their ass at home.." a commonly used phrase by both genders when talking about spouses, kids, and even friends and extended family members. I've heard it said with contempt, as a plain statement, and jokingly.
_
HIM: Good plan! Leave his ass at home. We need a catch up with the (her maid name)!

_*He, echoing her phrasing, approves of the plan to have OP watch the kids so the siblings and he can spend time with the core group of himself and the <maiden name> family. Remember, this is OP's wife AND her brothers, who will also be there.

Look, most of my friends are people I've known since high school. We've all married (some more than once) and had kids (some even have grandkids), but we still like to get together as a core group without our spouses and kids once in a while. It's all about enjoying the old dynamic, inside jokes you had to be there for, remember when's, and sometimes comfort.
_
WIFE: That's the only way to live. Plain sailing is boring.

*Smooth sailing is boring. The ups and downs that make up life's rollercoaster add interest. An attempt to make him feel better about being on a rollercoaster.

Then more innocent small talk. This exchange occurred in June."

I really do see zero flirting there.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

Btw it does seem like we're over reacting but many long time TAMsters have all seen red flags at some level so that's what this is. An early warning to mate protect


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

TheTruthHurts said:


> Arrogant guys often play the PUA script because when you throw it at 20 women, at least 5% have low self esteem or have some seething resentment sufficient to get picked up by the a hole and feel validated even by a jerk.
> 
> Not saying your w is that, but I do think he could be. Those guys are toxic because some would sleep with their best friends wife if given the chance
> 
> ...


That's just it...more often than not in my experience, when a woman expresses that she doesn't really like a guy, and describes him as arrogant, all the while actually staying in contact with him when there really is no compelling reason to...there is a soft spot somewhere for him.

Even with women who don't, and wouldn't fall all the way for that PUA crap, there is a fine line between confidence, don't give a crap about anything attitude that most women find extremely attractive, and arrogance that many women claim is a turn off. And if the guy hovers right around that line, a lot of women will stay in orbit just for the little fluttery feelies they get.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

TheTruthHurts said:


> But he'll always be big brothers friend. That's a special category of man for many women (not you ******locks because you're a well adjusted adult - but many keep childhood feelings locked up in their hope chest)
> 
> [edit "hope" chest not the Freudian slip I typed]
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Perhaps it's a foo issue. She automatically reverts to the role of little sister when around her family?

BTW, it's *****locks. Get it right, bubba.
@samyeagar, your wife is seriously ****ed up. She consistently does her best to make you feel less than. Your time, your dime.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

MJJEAN said:


> Here it is in it's entirety. Lemme give you my translation
> 
> 
> "Earlier parts of the thread is innocent small talk exchanging pleasantries
> ...


My translation:
[HIM] Look at me, I am a bad boy. Leave your H at home and jump on my wild bad boy ride.

[Her] I'll jump on that ride and make sure my POS H is not around to ruin my fun.

pretty obvious to me, he is using PUA type of antics and she is falling for them.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

@Plan 9 from OS, 

You've discussed this with your wife and have expressed your feelings. She's apologized for her part in hurting your feelings and has offered to stay home with you. So moving forward.....what do you think you need to help you move past this situation? Do you think her apology was genuine (is it something you can accept and move on) or do you feel her transgression warrants a legal separation/divorce? maybe marriage counseling?


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

MJJEAN said:


> Here it is in it's entirety. Lemme give you my translation
> 
> 
> 
> ...




What if OP represents boring "smooth sailing"? Would that change your assessment?


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

If a husband of mine wrote to a female he was making plans with---LOL Livvie can stay her ass home---I'd think differently of him, and our relationship, going forward. It would be a permanent shift in perception.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> There is a family friend coming to visit within the next 2 weeks from Europe. He and his 2 sons will be here for about 10 days. We're in our 40s, and the family friend is going to be 50. My wife has 3 siblings, and her older brother is the closest to the family friend. The friend first met my in-laws back when he was a teenager for a student exchange program, and he's the same age as my BIL. So the gist of the thread is that he wants to have my wife, her two brothers (her sister will be out of state) and this guy's son go out for drinks at a bar. He doesn't want me to go. My wife's 2 brothers are single, so there are no other in-laws in the equation. I will be the only one excluded from the rest of the group who are around the same age. When I first found out, I heard that he made his wish clear to at least 2 people that I know of - my wife and my MIL. While I'm not this guy's biggest fan, I was hurt that I was being excluded since I thought that it would have been a fun time to go out to a bar to have drinks with my BIL's and my wife. We almost never do the bar scene, so this would be something different than we normally do. My wife showed empathy about it and she said that she wouldn't go. At the time we first discussed the situation, she let me infer that this was the guy's doing and possibly my MIL's (at least letting me think that this was possible).
> 
> However, last night I was curious and I found this exchange between my wife and the guy on the FB IM:
> 
> ...




My W had better not tell a family member I should keep my azz home. Disrespect. Period. You are not overreacting at all. In fact, said BIL should keep is azz in whatever country he resides.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

tropicalbeachiwish said:


> i don't think they're planning on cuckolding you, as there are plenty of witnesses invited. This guy just doesn't like you for whatever reason. He really doesn't like you. The comment from your wife about leaving your ass at home was mean. That was the moment that she should have stood up for you and failed to do so. Because this guy has intentionally made it clear that you are not invited, your wife should make a stand and not go. Allowing him to disrespect you in turn disrespects her.


bingo!


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

Lila said:


> I have a different take on the situation. From the limited FB messages, it looks like maybe the family friend has had a rough couple of years and wants to spend some time with his long time friends catching up. Maybe there's stuff he wants to share with them but would be uncomfortable sharing with you present? By your own admission doesn't sound like you are on friendly terms with the man which would make open conversation awkward.
> 
> Trust me, I've been in your shoes. My husband's roommate in college is not my favorite person in the world. When he visited us last year he specifically asked it to be "just the boys". At first I was upset but then thought "why would I want to be somewhere where I'm not wanted". Anyways, turns out he was going through some serious stuff (depression/suicidal) and just want to hang out with close friends before entering a mental health facility for treatment. I'm glad I didn't take it personally and just wrote it off as "boys night out".
> 
> Instead of looking at this as a lost opportunity to hang out with your wife and BILs, use it as an opportunity to make plans with them for a later date.


Did your H tell his friend you can keep your ass at home? Big difference.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Yeswecan said:


> Did your H tell his friend you can keep your ass at home? Big difference.


I don't know and don't care. I didn't overhear the conversation or read his text messages. If I had learned there were comments on par with OP's, I would have interpreted as a joke amongst friends. My husband and his friends have known me long enough to know the absurdity of such of comment. My "ass" does not let grass grow under it.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Are there times you go out with friends and she stays home to watch the kids? 

I have only brothers and while I was with my ex, he could go out and have fun with friends (he didn't do it often) because I there to watch the kids. If I went out it was with him or with the kids. 

My brothers would take me out sometimes. Dinner, movie, casino, etc because they wanted me to be able to get out of the house in a safe environment and just have fun and the ex could take his turn "keeping his *ss at home watching the kids"


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> To add more context to this (and I wish I could have thought of everything in the OP), my wife claims she doesn't even like him. She's claimed this well before they ever did the bar thing last year - which was the first time they did something like this before where I was excluded. Last year, I didn't know that I was unwelcome and I don't recall the specifics, but I thought I was traveling that day. She was never close to him for many years as best as I can tell, and like me she thinks he's an arrogant ass. While we have both treated him cordially, we've both also called him on his sh!t and/or were not afraid to disagree with him. My wife talked to my MIL yesterday about it (before I found the text exchange), and MIL supposedly did tell the visitor that I should be included in the meet up. She also told my wife that she wishes that he doesn't come to visit next year.
> 
> My wife has apologized for the comments 4 times yesterday, and I was candid with her on how I felt disrespected. I told her that I will not be involved in any activities that includes him. I will not see him at all this year. My wife told me that she will not go to the bar and she will also stay away. She says that now, but will she want to go as the time gets closer? IDK. Were her apologies coming from a place of remorse or regret? IDK. Right now, I'm not making any small talk - just about dinner and the kids ATM. Just feel hurt and stabbed in the back.



Whatever the case...you stood up(got a set) and will not tolerate disrespect from your W or anyone else(BIL coming to visit). Your W can think about how she handled the exchange and how she will get out of this dope coming to visit.


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## chillymorn69 (Jun 27, 2016)

some foreign guy would be getting an ass kicking ... and my wife ....I'd be pi$$ed 

sorry only goes so far. the conversation they had of face book was basically saying they had a fling before she got married . thats why the maiden name was used .

plain sailing is boring means let have a bumpy ride together just like old times.

I would be pissed .


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

Lila said:


> I don't know and don't care. I didn't overhear the conversation or read his text messages. If I had learned there were comments on par with OP's, I would have interpreted as a joke amongst friends. My husband and his friends have known me long enough to know the absurdity of such of comment. My "ass" does not let grass grow under it.


It could very well be interpreted as a joke or jokingly said as one types it out. But, I could never see my W saying that(writing it out to someone) to me except perhaps in person(me present) and laughing as it is said. Hell, I just get called stupid head with a laugh from time to time. Keep my ass home, never.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Lila said:


> I don't know and don't care. I didn't overhear the conversation or read his text messages. If I had learned there were comments on par with OP's, I would have interpreted as a joke amongst friends. My husband and his friends have known me long enough to know the absurdity of such of comment. My "ass" does not let grass grow under it.


To each their own for sure. My friends and I don't really share that kind of inside joking about our spouses

Plan9's situation does not apply directly to my wife and I as we do not have kids at home, but to me, a far more appropriate and respectful response by Plan9's wife's response to the guys suggestion that her husband stay home with the kids would have looked closer to "Well, let me run it by Plan9, see what he says, and we'll go from there." Especially considering she claims to not really like the guy, and finds him arrogant and all that.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

chillymorn69 said:


> some foreign guy would be getting an ass kicking ... and my wife ....I'd be pi$$ed
> 
> sorry only goes so far. the conversation they had of face book was basically saying they had a fling before she got married . thats why the maiden name was used .
> 
> ...


Maiden name would be used because it's her family, the brothers would still have that last name. Old family friends would consider me and my brothers "the maiden name's" My Mom has had a different last name for 40 years and she is still grouped in with the "maiden name's" when it comes to family get togethers.... 

Don't know how that translates in ANY way to they had an affair before marriage


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Yeswecan said:


> It could very well be interpreted as a joke or jokingly said as one types it out. But, I could never see my W saying that(writing it out to someone) to me except perhaps in person(me present) and laughing as it is said. Hell, I just get called stupid head with a laugh from time to time. Keep my ass home, never.





samyeagar said:


> To each their own for sure. My friends and I don't really share that kind of inside joking about our spouses
> 
> Plan9's situation does not apply directly to my wife and I as we do not have kids at home, but to me, a far more appropriate and respectful response by Plan9's wife's response to the guys suggestion that her husband stay home with the kids would have looked closer to "Well, let me run it by Plan9, see what he says, and we'll go from there."


This does appear to be an issue of different strokes for different folks where one partner thought one way and the other thought differently. She responded differently than Plan9 expected, and unless she's purposefully mean spirited, I honestly don't think she did so intentionally (It appears to be a first for Plan9 and his wife which is why it was so hurtful to Plan9). He can focus on validating his feelings or he can focus on communicating his expectations for the future and working through the anger. That's just my 2 cents.


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## chillymorn69 (Jun 27, 2016)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Maiden name would be used because it's her family, the brothers would still have that last name. Old family friends would consider me and my brothers "the maiden name's" My Mom has had a different last name for 40 years and she is still grouped in with the "maiden name's" when it comes to family get togethers....
> 
> Don't know how that translates in ANY way to they had an affair before marriage


I guess I see deception and wheres theres smoke theres fire.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

Lila said:


> This does appear to be an issue of different strokes for different folks where one partner thought one way and the other thought differently. She responded differently than Plan9 expected, and unless she's purposefully mean spirited, I honestly don't think she did so intentionally (It appears to be a first for Plan9 and his wife which is why it was so hurtful to Plan9). He can focus on validating his feelings or he can focus on communicating his expectations for the future and working through the anger. That's just my 2 cents.




I don't think you are hearing what these guys are saying.

It's not about OP's feelings or reactions, it's a question about OP's W's mindset and intentions.

Men tend to be action-oriented. So the "slight" that OP's W threw at him angers him because it came out of the blue. It changed things and his understanding of her past actions. It went against what she has told him. It caused him to reassess, and when he reassessed, the pieces no longer added up or fit into the places they fit before.

So he came here. To understand. To be reassured or warned. To ask people distant from the situation to give them their read.

The words alone are not the issue for me and probably many others here.

Now the problem is adding up the actions to date.

Very old family friend. Friend of older (?) brothers. Strong enough friendship to look them up decades later to see them while in the country. W has stated he's an ass. He's arrogant. But... has 30 FB contacts with him over 2 years. But... makes plans with him that expressly exclude her H. But... uses derogatory terms for her H - possibly just joking, possibly matching OM's emotions, possibly (probably not) meaning it.

Why invest this much in someone who's an ass? Why portray someone you MAKE PLANS to see as someone you don't like or respect and don't want to see?

We don't know why, but history tells us that things that do not appear to add up probably don't. And history tells us not to jam the pieces back into place as though you never had concerns.

So the only things left seem to be extreme reactions on either side; bury your head in the sand and ignore or make a federal case. And a few have recommended both of these extremes. But know that those recommendations come from lenses biased by personal experience. Either or neither could be right.

That's why I advised to monitor and mate guard. Coupled with actions that demonstrate boundaries and offer the hope of trust. Go with your spouse and allow the issue to rest if apologies seem sincere. But still seek to understand and be persistent until the pieces fall into place without being forced. But that's just my recommendation. I'm content that OP has reached out and is now vigilant.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Lila said:


> This does appear to be an issue of different strokes for different folks where one partner thought one way and the other thought differently. She responded differently than Plan9 expected, and unless she's purposefully mean spirited, I honestly don't think she did so intentionally (It appears to be a first for Plan9 and his wife which is why it was so hurtful to Plan9). He can focus on validating his feelings or he can focus on communicating his expectations for the future and working through the anger. That's just my 2 cents.


This is a first for Plan9, not so convinced about his wife with regards to this family friend that she claims to not really like, and claims is an arrogant ass. Presumably too, since Plan9 has known this guy for the entire relationship with his wife, if this was indeed the type of banter this group, including his wife engages in, he would not have been caught off guard by it. I am not sure I would even characterize this as mean spirited either. It actually seemed to be honest and matter of fact in the context of that conversation...like both of them knew the situation as it relates to Plan9, they both knew he didn't like the guy, which again, the wife claims she doesn't really like him either, and wouldn't really want to hang around anyway, yet they were making plans to get together anyway. One can not claim friendly banter in this context, with the claims of not liking the others anyway.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

TheTruthHurts said:


> I don't think you are hearing what these guys are saying.
> 
> It's not about OP's feelings or reactions, it's a question about OP's W's mindset and intentions.
> 
> ...


It would be interesting to see how things would proceed from here if Plan9 said he would make arrangements for a babysitter, and would actually like to go with them, and then make absolutely certain he would be on his best behavior so as not to give confirmation or their presumption of awkwardness and disdain.

While I will reiterate that I do not think their is anything affair like going on, and that there is not likely to be any previously unknown romantic situations between this guy and Plan9's wife, it would be a great exercise to see exactly where everyones loyalties lie.


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

Try to think back to the time when she wrote the "keep his ass home" line. Is there any chance that it was written during a period where you might have had some guy's night out activities of your own? One explanation (not an excuse) is that she was feeling resentment over you having time out of the house & away from family responsibilities. In that context, it would be her saying the equivalent of "yeah, his ass can stay home for a change."

Still points to problems in communication. But, if delivered in that context, it would be a bit more understandable.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

samyeagar said:


> This is a first for Plan9, not so convinced about his wife with regards to this family friend that she claims to not really like, and claims is an arrogant ass. Presumably too, since Plan9 has known this guy for the entire relationship with his wife, if this was indeed the type of banter this group, including his wife engages in, he would not have been caught off guard by it. I am not sure I would even characterize this as mean spirited either. It actually seemed to be honest and matter of fact in the context of that conversation...like both of them knew the situation as it relates to Plan9, they both knew he didn't like the guy, which again, the wife claims she doesn't really like him either, and wouldn't really want to hang around anyway, yet they were making plans to get together anyway. One can not claim friendly banter in this context, with the claims of not liking the others anyway.


It is possible that she actually likes the family friend and lied about it just to appease Plan 9. @Plan 9 from OS, how would you have responded if she had been honest and told you that the meet up with Family Friend was for{maiden name} family members only?


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

Lila said:


> It is possible that she actually likes the family friend and lied about it just to appease Plan 9. @Plan 9 from OS, how would you have responded if she had been honest and told you that the meet up with Family Friend was for{maiden name} family members only?




My W would never want to go somewhere with an asshat without me being there. Just doesn't make sense


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Lila said:


> It is possible that she actually likes the family friend and lied about it just to appease Plan 9. @Plan 9 from OS, how would you have responded if she had been honest and told you that the meet up with Family Friend was for{maiden name} family members only?


Yeah, because this is so much better :laugh:


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

TheTruthHurts said:


> My W would never want to go somewhere with an asshat without me being there. Just doesn't make sense
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



You missed the first part of my quote



> It is possible that she actually likes the family friend and lied about it just to appease Plan 9.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

I may have missed it but are the brothers bringing their spouses or is it JUST "maiden name family" and old family friend?

It's not like it's a GNO, it's a family get together.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

Lila said:


> You missed the first part of my quote




You mean what if she admitted she liked the OM and wanted to go on a chaperoned date with him without OP? 


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I may have missed it but are the brothers bringing their spouses or is it JUST "maiden name family" and old family friend?
> 
> 
> 
> It's not like it's a GNO, it's a family get together.




He's not family


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## Roselyn (Sep 19, 2010)

OP, your wife & her family are disrespectful to you. This family friend is no friend to your marriage. I would never invite that type of person in my home. Let your wife know exactly how you feel about her family & her "old family friend". If you wish to preserve your mind and your marriage, move to another state. Best thing my husband & I ever did was to get away from his disrespectful family. Give yourself some peace in your marriage & teach your wife some manners; especially referring to you as an "ass"!


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## Dannip (Jun 13, 2017)

Your family friend is testing the waters and desires to be the brash dominant male at the watering hole. I feel he wants to be desired and admired by all. Eliminating you helps with the effort. 

Tell your wife to find a baby sitter for the event and keep one on flexible hold for the next outings during the stay. There will be more than one. 

VERY Diplomatically: 

Then tell your wife she will accompany you to the social events. It's mate guarding. If there's no problem, you won't be disappointed. 

Tell her you two are a pair. Let on that there will be no one on one sessions with this guy. He's close friends with someone else anyway. If she argues, listen. Then ask why? If she says you are controlling. Tell her she makes controlling sound like a bad thing. Then shut up and walk away. 

The entire Texts between them look innocent but half raise a yellow flag. She doesn't like but keeps in contact is irrational. Maybe ask why 5 times and just listen. I really don't see an argument forming so don't turn it into one. 

Body language at the events will tell you much. 

All in all, she goes with you to the outings. You do not go with her.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Lila said:


> You missed the first part of my quote


And Family Only with friend. Spouses not welcome...at what point does a long term spouse become considered as family?

I know you are trying to come up with various alternative explanations, but what you are coming up with are not really in the realm of normal situations, and are kind of outliers, which is fine, but it is far enough out of the ordinary that if it was really like this, Plan9 would have been aware of this dynamic...not exactly like he and his wife have only been together for six months...


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

I've had family friends that I don't like necessarily, I wouldn't have picked them as a friend for myself or want to be BFFs and hang out all the time or even do anything with them alone because we have nothing in common just as 2 people, but they are family and we all get along and it's fun when they are here and we all catch up. 

There's a middle ground between like and not like.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

samyeagar said:


> Yeah, because this is so much better :laugh:


So the only way that you would have found this situation acceptable is if Plan 9 was invited to participate? 

Maybe it's just my relationship dynamic with my husband but we do stuff independently of each other all of the time. Sometimes I go out to dinner with my girlfriends and/or family. Sometimes he does stuff with his guy friends and/or family. 

Everything seems to boil to the "keep his ass at home" comment, which some interpret it as a joke and others interpret it as nefarious.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I may have missed it but are the brothers bringing their spouses or is it JUST "maiden name family" and old family friend?
> 
> It's not like it's a GNO, it's a family get together.


Brothers are not married, so no spouses, though I do wonder if it was presented to them that girlfriends/dates were not welcome?


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

Lila said:


> So the only way that you would have found this situation acceptable is if Plan 9 was invited to participate?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




But do you do things with guy friends and he does things with girl friends? without the other being welcome? Because that's the dynamic AFAICT


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

TheTruthHurts said:


> He's not family
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Family means different things to different people. If they were suggesting an alone date I would be 100% disagreeing with it but it's an outing WITH her brothers as a family event. 

I have all brothers, we go out. They have friends that tag along sometimes that have been part of the family since they were in Kindergarten. It's a memory lane kind of thing 

My and my SILs also do girls nights where we absolutely tell the boys to stay home and babysit while we sip coffee or do pottery or crafts (real wild nights lol)


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

TheTruthHurts said:


> You mean what if she admitted she liked the OM and wanted to go on a chaperoned date with him without OP?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


No. She likes him as a family friend. She claimed to Plan 9 that she didn't really like him because he was arrogant. I think she told plan 9 that to appease his anger. She can "like" this male family friend as just a friend, no? :|


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Lila said:


> So the only way that you would have found this situation acceptable is if Plan 9 was invited to participate?
> 
> Maybe it's just my relationship dynamic with my husband but we do stuff independently of each other all of the time. Sometimes I go out to dinner with my girlfriends and/or family. Sometimes he does stuff with his guy friends and/or family.
> 
> Everything seems to boil to the "keep his ass at home" comment, which some interpret it as a joke and others interpret it as nefarious.


If by some, you mean you, then yeah, I agree 

My wife and I do things apart too, but we never explicitly exclude the other, behind the others back, before telling them about the get together, and commit them to taking care of the kids... especially at the behest of an opposite sex long time friend, that we don't really like and who is an arrogant ass.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

TheTruthHurts said:


> But do you do things with guy friends and he does things with girl friends? without the other being welcome? Because that's the dynamic AFAICT
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes, we have long-time family friends of the opposite sex that we meet up with, without the other, on occasion. It's always in a family setting but nevertheless, it's a mixed sex group. We also participate in independent hobbies and other activities where RSVP is strictly for 1. 

We do have an inter-culture relationship but it does not appear to be much different than our friends in same-culture relationships.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

Lila said:


> No. She likes him as a family friend. She claimed to Plan 9 that she didn't really like him because he was arrogant. I think she told plan 9 that to appease his anger. She can "like" this male family friend as just a friend, no? :|




But if you lied about liking another man that you had a long history with, made plans to see him... then said ok jk I like him as a friend... you're saying 1) you didn't trust your H with the truth 2) you made plans and specifically excluded him and 3) your lies were to protect the OM's feelings above your H

I don't think you'd do that. So this isn't the never ending "can a married person ever have an OS friend" issue which NEVER gets resolved on TAM. This is peculiar behavior from someone who has never acted this way before. The "not normal" aspect is really one thing raising the yellow or tiny red flag 


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

I am not getting any kind of attraction, OM vibe here between Plan9's wife and this guy, honestly that doesnt seem to be a concern. Exclusion and disrespect ARE the concern. My suggestion would be for Plan9 to just GO. If someone doesnt like it, then thats too bad for them, let them say it to his face.


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## Middle of Everything (Feb 19, 2012)

TheTruthHurts said:


> The words alone are not the issue for me and probably many others here.
> 
> Now the problem is adding up the actions to date.
> 
> ...


Well said. Its that 1+1 is not equaling 2 here that concerns me.

When I put myself in Plan9's shoes, Im ****ing pissed. First that my wife concocted some bull**** lie to tell me that is contradicted by a FB exchange. Second that my spidey sense is going off like a mother because she "doesnt like him" and thinks he is an ass yet remains in contact with him and makes plans with him EXCLUDING me.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

samyeagar said:


> And Family Only with friend. Spouses not welcome...at what point does a long term spouse become considered as family?
> 
> I know you are trying to come up with various alternative explanations, but what you are coming up with are not really in the realm of normal situations, and are kind of outliers, which is fine, but it is far enough out of the ordinary that if it was really like this, Plan9 would have been aware of this dynamic...not exactly like he and his wife have only been together for six months...





samyeagar said:


> If by some, you mean you, then yeah, I agree
> 
> My wife and I do things apart too, but we never explicitly exclude the other, behind the others back, before telling them about the get together, and commit them to taking care of the kids... especially at the behest of an opposite sex long time friend, that we don't really like and who is an arrogant ass.


Looks like you and I do not agree and that's fine by me  but for the record, I'm not the only one that interpreted it as a joke as seen by some of the earlier responses to the thread.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

If my brothers and I were planning a family get together, no spouses/girlfriends allowed and my husband showed up anyway or didn't let me go they would be very concerned about me and my wellbeing. 

Isolating someone from family is a red flag. 

People are allowed to go out alone, it's her brothers and family friend (who she most likely looks at as a brother as well)


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Lila said:


> Yes, we have long-time family friends of the opposite sex that we meet up with, without the other, on occasion. It's always in a family setting but nevertheless, it's a mixed sex group. *We also participate in independent hobbies and other activities where RSVP is strictly for 1.*
> 
> We do have an inter-culture relationship but it does not appear to be much different than our friends in same-culture relationships.


I understand this, but that is a whole bunch of different than a casual meetup at a bar where there is no RSVP limit beyond what the group makes up.

With my group of friends, if we get together to play golf, paintball, online games, play pool at the bar, what ever else, none of us would bat an eye if a significant other showed up, and all are expressly welcome, even though none ever actually want to come with, except for pool at the bar, because none are actually interested, but the invitation is always there.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

samyeagar said:


> I understand this, but that is a whole bunch of different than a casual meetup at a bar where there is no RSVP limit beyond what the group makes up.
> 
> With my group of friends, if we get together to play golf, paintball, online games, play pool at the bar, what ever else, none of us would bat an eye if a significant other showed up, and all are expressly welcome, even though none ever actually want to come with, except for pool at the bar, because none are actually interested, but the invitation is always there.


Do you have sisters? Do you ever have sibling get togethers to get out of the house away from kids a while and let her husband stay home with them? 

If your sister told you she was not allowed to go out with you and the rest of your family without her husband, that would seem normal?

IMO there is a big difference between siblings and just a GNO or social meeting playing pool


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

My biggest issue would be the guy flatly -- and very intentionally -- excluding/uninviting/not inviting me.

Oh, and my wife gleefully going along with it.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

TheTruthHurts said:


> But if you lied about liking another man that you had a long history with, made plans to see him... then said ok jk I like him as a friend... you're saying 1) you didn't trust your H with the truth 2) you made plans and specifically excluded him and 3) your lies were to protect the OM's feelings above your H


 I asked a question earlier of Plan 9, specifically, how would he have responded if his wife had just been honest with him and told him he wasn't invited. His response would determine whether the answer is 1,2, or 3. 




TheTruthHurts said:


> I don't think you'd do that. So this isn't the never ending "can a married person ever have an OS friend" issue which NEVER gets resolved on TAM. This is peculiar behavior from someone who has never acted this way before. The "not normal" aspect is really one thing raising the yellow or tiny red flag


I think it'll be up to Plan 9 to decide how to interpret his wife's behavior. If he thinks this situation was a ruse by his wife to go bang the family friend, he'll have plenty of support at TAM. 

He asked for opinions, I gave him mine.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Question- if it was a group of sisters and a female family friend who were making plans to go out and leave the husband at home to watch the kids, would that be any different?

Or is it because the brothers and family friend are male that is the issue?


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## TX-SC (Aug 25, 2015)

In my humble opinion, there are two issues here. The first is the wording. Neither I nor my wife would say such a thing, old friend or not. In our relationship, it would go something like this: "Sounds like fun! I'll check with TX-SC and see if he wants to tag along or if he'd prefer to have a movie night with the kids." To me and in context of my own relationship, her message sounded disrespectful. 

The second issue is the lying. It's not cool to tell your spouse something but really feel differently. Honesty is usually the best policy. By lying, she has made the WHOLE ISSUE seem fishy and has now caused more problems than she avoided by not being honest in the first place.


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## cynthiaow2 (Jul 18, 2017)

CharlieParker said:


> * puts on passive aggressive hat *
> 
> Screw that, babysitter yes, but rather than go out myself I'm going along with my wife. Don't care that I don't like the dude and I'm not wanted, I'm coming with her.


Lol

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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Do you have sisters? Do you ever have sibling get togethers to get out of the house away from kids a while and let her husband stay home with them?
> 
> If your sister told you she was not allowed to go out with you and the rest of your family without her husband, that would seem normal?
> 
> IMO there is a big difference between siblings and just a GNO or social meeting playing pool


I actually have two sisters, one deceased. Spouses and partners are always considered family for the purposes of family get togethers.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

samyeagar said:


> I actually have two sisters, one deceased. Spouses and partners are always considered family for the purposes of family get togethers.


We do as well for most family get togethers but there are times where it's no boys allowed with the SILs or my brothers took me out to get me out of the house a bit without the kids. The brothers also have boys nights that they have invited my ex to but no girls allowed. We can joke about it. Sometimes during a holidays with us all together the girls drink a bit and "we're gonna let loose and let the boys drive home for once!!" 

I'd have a huge problem with anyone telling me I couldn't go out with my brothers without them or needing to be invited to every single event.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Question- if it was a group of sisters and a female family friend who were making plans to go out and leave the husband at home to watch the kids, would that be any different?
> 
> Or is it because the brothers and family friend are male that is the issue?


I personally don't commit to plans that exclude my wife, while also committing her to picking up the slack for me without at least running it by her first.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

samyeagar said:


> I personally don't commit to plans that exclude my wife, while also committing her to picking up the slack for me without at least running it by her first.


and if he never goes out without inviting her and always asks if she can watch the kids while he goes out then that's fine. Wouldn't be a situation I would like but it's at least the standard they have set. 

If he goes out sometimes with family or friends that is a general "away from spouse" time or he makes plans with friends assuming she will be home to watch the children then he really can't be upset if she does too.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> We do as well for most family get togethers but there are times where it's no boys allowed with the SILs or my brothers took me out to get me out of the house a bit without the kids. The brothers also have boys nights that they have invited my ex to but no girls allowed. We can joke about it. Sometimes during a holidays with us all together the girls drink a bit and "we're gonna let loose and let the boys drive home for once!!"
> 
> I'd have a huge problem with anyone telling me I couldn't go out with my brothers without them or needing to be invited to every single event.


One huge difference between what you describe, and Plan9's situation, is really, who the hell does this family friend, read, non family member, think he is to call a family reunion, and exclude a spouse? That's the thing, family privilege is out the window, unless this guy is considered more family than Plan9, and in that case, it is very instructive to see exactly where Plan9 stands in the family structure. At least that is plainly out in the open now.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

Nope -- BS -- She should have defended you -- what she wrote was flat-out disrespectful to you and your marriage. She WASN't just "trying to spare you". She should have defended the marriage -- NOT gone along with him dissing you. Just flat out BS.

One other thing -- the IM that OP posted is NOT the banter of a wife who thinks the guy is an asshat. This is friendly banter of someone she likes. I would call her on it -- IF she thinks he is an ass, then WHY does she actually want to hang out with him??? Again, that's just BS. I think she protests that she doesn't like him/ass to cover the fact she DOES like him/attracted.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

To be clear my w encouraged me to go out with guys and I encourage her to go out with girls. Each of us is ok with OS friends there without us assuming their SO is there too. And each would be welcome to the others outing if they wanted to join.

My w often tries to include me with just the girls. I try to beg out but she says they like me and want to see me. When I golf with the guys I always want w to come but she only has if another guy brings a w (then it's best ball format  ). But the door is always open.

So to me it isn't about controlling the other, it's the opposite - it's curious to exclude the other. Even that's ok when it's in the open and discussed. I'm going to Reno with my brother and a bunch of guys from college. R u ok with that? Yes - have fun!

So it's curious that there was no open dialog.

Maybe it's just OP's relationship where they are both less direct. Idk


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## chillymorn69 (Jun 27, 2016)

let her go and then show up and see her reaction and his. 

sorry your going through this bull$hit. 

something is definitely off here.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> and if he never goes out without inviting her and always asks if she can watch the kids while he goes out then that's fine. Wouldn't be a situation I would like but it's at least the standard they have set.
> 
> If he goes out sometimes with family or friends that is a general "away from spouse" time or he makes plans with friends assuming she will be home to watch the children then he really can't be upset if she does too.


Lets reframe this a bit closer to the context Plan9 is dealing with...Your husband says he was getting to an old family friend of his sisters, that your husband claims not to like because she's a snooty ass, and you weren't invited, and that you were to watch the kids, then later you find out that the friend suggested you stay home, and your husband said yeah, she can stay her ass home and watch the kids...

You would be perfectly fine with that? Ok, cool honey, I'll take care of the kids. Not even the least bit of being taken for granted? You do seem to value your independence in your relationship, and I would think that having your spouse commit your time without your consent, and just telling you after plans were already committed to would not sit terribly well...


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

samyeagar said:


> Lets reframe this a bit closer to the context Plan9 is dealing with...Your husband says he was getting to an old family friend of his sisters, that your husband claims not to like because she's a snooty ass, and you weren't invited, and that you were to watch the kids, then later you find out that the friend suggested you stay home, and your husband said yeah, she'll stay her ass home and watch the kids...
> 
> You would be perfectly fine with that? Ok, cool honey, I'll take care of the kids. Not even the least bit of being taken for granted? You do seem to value your independence in your relationship, and I would think that having your spouse commit your time without your consent, and just telling you would not sit terribly well...


Going out alone- Hell no
Going out with his sisters and her- Fine

There used to be people on ex's FB page that were female family friends who he thought of as sisters. He didn't hang out with any family but if he had and old family friends were there I wouldn't care at all. 

I think of my male family friends as brothers. If they were at a brothers and I get together it would make no difference.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Going out alone- Hell no
> Going out with his sisters and her- Fine
> 
> There used to be people on ex's FB page that were female family friends who he thought of as sisters. He didn't hang out with any family but if he had and old family friends were there I wouldn't care at all.
> ...


But this is not the same context Plan9 is dealing with. Take what you said above, and reframe it in the context of this thread...

Your husband says he was getting to an old family friend of his sisters, that your husband claims not to like because she's a snooty ass, and you weren't invited, and that you were to watch the kids, then later you find out that the friend suggested you stay home, and your husband said yeah, she'll stay her ass home and watch the kids...

Would you be happy and content with that?


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

chillymorn69 said:


> let her go and then show up and see her reaction and his.
> 
> sorry your going through this bull$hit.
> 
> something is definitely off here.


If I was out with my brothers and family and my husband showed up to check on me and see my reaction I think they would stage an intervention to get me out of there. 

She's not going alone with this guy, her brothers are there. If he can't trust her enough to not have an affair while out with her family then they have much bigger problems.


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## lucy999 (Sep 28, 2014)

Please note that I have not read the rest of the replies here. Only your initial thread. My gut reaction is nope, nope, and nope. My feelings would be so hurt. And, I'd be pretty pissed off that my wife talk smack about me. I would be very disappointed and upset if my wife ended up going to party with this guy. He does not sound like a friend of the marriage. I don't think you're overreacting at all.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

samyeagar said:


> But this is not the same context Plan9 is dealing with. Take what you said above, and reframe it in the context of this thread...
> 
> Your husband says he was getting to an old family friend of his sisters, that your husband claims not to like because she's a snooty ass, and you weren't invited, and that you were to watch the kids, then later you find out that the friend suggested you stay home, and your husband said yeah, she'll stay her ass home and watch the kids...
> 
> Would you be happy and content with that?


It's assumed that when one goes out alone the other is to stay their ass at home and watch the kids. The wording wouldn't bother me because I'd see it as a joke.

The only way this would bother me is if he was going alone OR if everyone else's partners were invited but me. 

Going _with _family to see an old family friend and hang out while the spouse takes their turn "staying their ass at home to watch the kids" would not bother me. 

But if he's never gone out to an event where it was her turn to "stay her ass home and watch the kids" then I can see where the trouble could come in. If he has though...


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## TX-SC (Aug 25, 2015)

I think it's important that we all step back a second and realize that the dynamic we have with our own spouse is of very little concern here. What's important is that this conversation was outside of the dynamic that he and his wife share. It bothered him because it's not the way she usually reacts. That in itself is a problem and it's enough for him to have concerns.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

For people who hardly communicate, her texts sounded flirty (or at least a bit too enthusiastic and supportive.) Her disrespecting you to him was a wide open door for him to walk through....THAT is what you need to focus on. She either doesn't go anywhere with OM, regardless if her brothers are there, or you go too.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

P9, did your wife and this guy have any kind of relationship before you met?


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> It's assumed that when one goes out alone the other is to stay their ass at home and watch the kids. The wording wouldn't bother me because I'd see it as a joke.
> 
> The only way this would bother me is if he was going alone OR if everyone else's partners were invited but me.
> 
> ...


But go back to the OP and read through it carefully, at what was said, who said what, and when. And then look at the follow up post a bit later, and just substitute yourself and you husband into the context. My first observation, and you will correct me if I am wrong, but my first observation is that in your relationship with your husband, things would not happen this way.


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

Eight pages of comments within 1/2 a day!

FWIW, I'd be pissed off if my wife told another man that I could stay my ass home. That said, I would not call their exchange "flirty". My wife has a gay married male friend who completely acts like I'm invisible when I've seen him. Fortunately, he lives far far away and I will never need to spend time with him again, so I just let it go.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

samyeagar said:


> But go back to the OP and read through it carefully, at what was said, who said what, and when. And then look at the follow up post a bit later, and just substitute yourself and you husband into the context. My first observation, and you will correct me if I am wrong, but my first observation is that in your relationship with your husband, things would not happen this way.


I do understand and in his exact shoes I may have felt an initial "hey, that wasn't really nice" and get a "sorry" 
But then I'd think and remember, he's out with family, they are just kidding around, he would never do anything bad in front of his sisters and I can trust him so chill out. 

I wouldn't blow it up into a big thing where I put my foot down that he's not allowed to go without me or show up to spy on them. 

People say stupid things sometimes without thinking about how it sounds first knowing other people can not interpret jokes in writing and context they aren't in.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

samyeagar said:


> I personally don't commit to plans that exclude my wife, while also committing her to picking up the slack for me without at least running it by her first.


QFT.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

@Plan 9 from OS What say you to these questions and comments? 


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I do understand and in his exact shoes I may have felt an initial "hey, that wasn't really nice" and get a "sorry"
> But then I'd think and remember, he's out with family, they are just kidding around, he would never do anything bad in front of his sisters and I can trust him so chill out.
> 
> I wouldn't blow it up into a big thing where I put my foot down that he's not allowed to go without me or show up to spy on them.
> ...


And I think that may be where my disconnect with other people is...it just never occurs to me to make disparaging remarks involving my wife and think it's funny or a joke. Especially behind her back to someone we have a supposedly mutual distaste for.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

I wouldn't see them as disparaging so it really depends on who his wife is and her family is. 

We can be a pretty crude and outspoken bunch when together so that wouldn't bother anyone. 

And again, it also really depends on if he goes out and leaves her to watch the kids and also if she doesn't go out much on her own because that gives it a whole different meaning imo. 

Ya, he can stay home and watch the kids for a change! 

I didn't go out much until my brothers started "making" me. It was very much a he can stay his ass home and watch the kids. I needed a break and he already had his outings where I was left to watch the kids.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

farsidejunky said:


> "Wife, I hear your apologies and want to believe them, but then I read your words to him...do I believe those as well? Which version is you? The one who respects me, or the one who doesn't?"


I really, really like this...


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

Roselyn said:


> OP, your wife & her family are disrespectful to you. This family friend is no friend to your marriage. I would never invite that type of person in my home. Let your wife know exactly how you feel about her family & her "old family friend". If you wish to preserve your mind and your marriage, move to another state. Best thing my husband & I ever did was to get away from his disrespectful family. Give yourself some peace in your marriage & teach your wife some manners; especially referring to you as an "ass"!


The MIL doesn't seem to care much for him either... I'm sure she see's some things and in my opinion gave a clear message to her daughter. I am bothered that the wife deflected the blame initially that it was the MIL when it clearly wasn't in addition to the disrespectful banter.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

Plan 9, whether the guy is a nice guy or not, my concern if I were in your place would be which truth do you follow from your wife, because both seem half in their intent.

She showed a callous disrespect of you... I've not experienced or seen bad lead to good without remorse, true remorse and emotional restitution and ... without that bad only leads to worse. And that is what I see here, if her judgement is clouded and altered by just a simple message, what can face to face bring?

Removing the suffering will bring near immediate relief, but your wife needs to be clear with him that their buddy-time on his visits is over, they she does not like the influence he brings to her marriage, and that she wishes him the best in life as he navigates it without communications with her.

This is her's to own and recognize... we are our own "mate protectors" if we respect the marriages we are in.

There is a wonderful lesson in this for her...


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Every marriage should have respect but needing so much that one comment, one time, about staying your ass home with the kids so she can go out with her brothers and friend is cause for needing her to make a scene with her family will more likely backfire and make him look weak IMO

I respect my partner, in ways different from typical even, but if one comment like that caused such a huge problem I wouldn't think it was confident or protective. I'd think it was jealous and a self esteem issue on his end. 

I'd acknowledge it was a little rude and not do it again and we'd kiss and make up and go about our day.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Every marriage should have respect but needing so much that one comment, one time, about staying your ass home with the kids so she can go out with her brothers and friend is cause for needing her to make a scene with her family will more likely backfire and make him look weak IMO
> 
> I respect my partner, in ways different from typical even, but if one comment like that caused such a huge problem I wouldn't think it was confident or protective. I'd think it was jealous and a self esteem issue on his end.
> 
> *I'd acknowledge it was a little rude and not do it again* and we'd kiss and make up and go about our day.


Taking the specific words Plan9's wife used, that he odviously thought were kind of disparaging, and substituting something you would feel disparaged by...what you said above would be what I would expect someone to say and do if they truly were sorry. In Plan9's case, she told him she didn't even like the guy, and she wouldn't go. To me, that indicates they are on two different pages entirely. Either she does not remotely get that what she said was hurtful to Plan9, or she does, but doesn't really care.

This is akin to a difference between my wife and I. If she calls me out on something, my automatic assumption is that she is being honest in how she feels, I will validate her feelings, and we'll come up with something to make sure it never happens again. If I call her out, there is an immediate, reflexive defensive reaction where she will dig in her heels to prove she is right and I am wrong. She will eventually let that drop and acknowledge me, but it is just exhausting getting to that point...to the point that I am pretty careful in what I bring up to make sure it is worth the inevitable dance to resolution.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

aine said:


> P9, did your wife and this guy have any kind of relationship before you met?


No. He was an exchange student when they first met, and the next time he began to make fairly regular trips to the U.S. (once a year with some years skipped), we were adults and already in a relationship. She would have been in elementary school when he came over the first time.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Question- if it was a group of sisters and a female family friend who were making plans to go out and leave the husband at home to watch the kids, would that be any different?
> 
> Or is it because the brothers and family friend are male that is the issue?


Women go out "with the girls" and men go out "with the boys" all the time and it's not a huge deal. And, while almost no one ever says "No husbands/wives", it's more or less an implied rule, and somehow everyone is OK with it.

That's not what this is.

The issue here is three-fold...

* Husband / brother-in-law being excluded -- to the point of actually saying, "He's not invited." -- from what is ostensibly a sort of "family" outing... and by someone who isn't even a member of said family.

* Another man essentially telling P9, "I'm taking your wife out. Don't bother waiting up."

LOL. No.

* P9's wife being OK -- even giddy -- with all of this.

Now flip the genders and tell us how _you'd_ feel.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

GusPolinski said:


> Women go out "with the girls" and men go out "with the boys" all the time and it's not a huge deal. And, while almost no one ever says "No husbands/wives", it's more or less an implied rule, and somehow everyone is OK with it.
> 
> That's not what this is.
> 
> ...


QFT^^^

What I find interesting is that the in laws of the OP are dissing him as well. Almost like they want the W out of the M...


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

GusPolinski said:


> Sounds like a question for the ladies.
> 
> Can't imagine most would be thrilled by it.
> 
> ...



and if it was an alone date I would agree with you 100% but it's not. It's with her brothers. It's not an outing for these two to hang out, it's a "maiden name family get together and catch up with an old family friend" time. 

If her brothers were bringing partners or dates then I'd also think it was crappy.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> and if it was an alone date I would agree with you 100% but it's not. It's with her brothers. It's not an outing for these two to hang out, it's a "maiden name family get together and catch up with an old family friend" time.


Doesn't matter, especially since P9 is far more a member of his wife's family than Mr. Euro Dumb**** is. 



SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> If her brothers were bringing partners or dates then I'd also think it was crappy.


Crappi*er*.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

I had to step away for awhile to get some work done. I hope answer most of the questions, and I'll try to get them all in this one post. IMHO, I don't think there is any attraction to the man from my wife. While there have been some communications on and off, they usually came in spurts and only around the times when he'd visit. Last year was my inlaws 50th anniversary, so exchanged were made that focused around that. I also asked her about her communication method with him, i.e. if she loathes the man, then why so friendly on the IM? She states that she uses the same texting style with everyone - even girlfriends. Based on what I do know of her, this is plausible. There may be a FOO dynamic to this too. My wife does not like conflict. While we have good overall communication, she will have a tendency to shut down at times with me if we have too long of an argument. Her mother is also a people pleaser and I think this plus a conflict avoidant tendency could explain a lot of this.

We both work at home, so we've had time to have a couple of discussions over this. I told her I was NOT OK with the exchange she had with the family friend pertaining to the night out at the bar. She apologized for that again. I stressed to her that what hurt the most was that she did not have my back. It's one thing to get hurt if some outsider tries to exclude you as being a part of the family. Sh!t like that can happen to anyone. What hurt the most was that no one had my back in this. I think she understands as well as can be expected. I do believe that she may have had my interest in mind by trying to separate us. I pointed out to her that we should have talked about this right out of the gate. While I wouldn't have been enthused about it, if she came to me straight away and said that the fam friend wanted to have a get together with "just the siblings", I could have lived with that OK. The way it went down behind my back was what really hurt. 

We had a few convos today, so it wasn't as neat and tidy as a 50s/60s family sitcom where the conflicts are resolved in 5 minutes and we are all happy... but we did hash things out. She insisted that she really didn't want to go to this anyways, that she was trying to be friendly. The reason she went to this last year (first year this happened), she only went because her sister also went. My SIL is skipping town early to avoid the guy, so it would be just her and the guys. My wife suggested that I go in her place and that she would be happy to stay home. She says she would feel out of place with her and the guys. She told me that she hadn't had much of a chance to spend any time this summer with her mom, and she would like to spend the evening with her instead of going to a bar. Honestly, bars have not been her scene since we've been out of college, so I can buy that she really wouldn't have an interest in going to this event. Even when she goes out with friends, they don't hit the bars but go out to dinner and do tame activities and never coming home at very late hours. My first thought was to avoid spending any time with the d!ckhead at all; however, this idea actually sounds enticing to me because it rejects one of the things that he wants. Another interesting thing is that my wife's older brother - the one who is supposed to be the closest to the guy - has been attending Al-Anon meetings periodically because he's been married to 2 alcoholics before, so while he doesn't mind drinking he's never one to want to get drunk. Asshat wants to get my BIL drunk. Last year the dildo was being an ass about it because my BIL kept refusing drinks from him. So we got to thinking about it and my wife suggests that my BIL be the DD for the night. That would actually deny the guy 2 things he wanted: 1) me to be excluded and 2) to get the BIL drunk. 

I think it's too delicious of an idea to pass up.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

Clever to be sure and a reminder that anger and alcohol mix poorly... an a****t sober is a super a****t drunk.

Keep the upper calm...


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

"I think it's too delicious of an idea to pass up."

You might want to rethink this. 

1. Why spend one minute with the jerk? Get a sitter and take your wife out for the evening. Have her inform him that she's received a better offer for her time that evening (even if it's cheese & crackers & a movie) 

2. If he annoys the BIL enough, he won't be welcomed by any of the family members in the future (he's already gotten on MIL's & SIL's nerves) 

3. Don't let the bastard see he got to you


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> and if it was an alone date I would agree with you 100% but it's not. It's with her brothers. It's not an outing for these two to hang out, it's a "maiden name family get together and catch up with an old family friend" time.
> 
> If her brothers were bringing partners or dates then I'd also think it was crappy.


HOW do you justify her saying she thinks he an ass and arrogant and she doesn't even like him with WANTING to go hang out with him?? It's pure BS. Nothing like making your husband feel he's NOT part of the family. There is absolutely NO reason he shouldn't have been included.


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> I had to step away for awhile to get some work done. I hope answer most of the questions, and I'll try to get them all in this one post. IMHO, I don't think there is any attraction to the man from my wife. While there have been some communications on and off, they usually came in spurts and only around the times when he'd visit. Last year was my inlaws 50th anniversary, so exchanged were made that focused around that. I also asked her about her communication method with him, i.e. if she loathes the man, then why so friendly on the IM? She states that she uses the same texting style with everyone - even girlfriends. Based on what I do know of her, this is plausible. There may be a FOO dynamic to this too. My wife does not like conflict. While we have good overall communication, she will have a tendency to shut down at times with me if we have too long of an argument. Her mother is also a people pleaser and I think this plus a conflict avoidant tendency could explain a lot of this.
> 
> We both work at home, so we've had time to have a couple of discussions over this. I told her I was NOT OK with the exchange she had with the family friend pertaining to the night out at the bar. She apologized for that again. I stressed to her that what hurt the most was that she did not have my back. It's one thing to get hurt if some outsider tries to exclude you as being a part of the family. Sh!t like that can happen to anyone. What hurt the most was that no one had my back in this. I think she understands as well as can be expected. I do believe that she may have had my interest in mind by trying to separate us. I pointed out to her that we should have talked about this right out of the gate. While I wouldn't have been enthused about it, if she came to me straight away and said that the fam friend wanted to have a get together with "just the siblings", I could have lived with that OK. The way it went down behind my back was what really hurt.
> 
> ...


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

jlg07 said:


> HOW do you justify her saying she thinks he an ass and arrogant and she doesn't even like him with WANTING to go hang out with him?? It's pure BS. Nothing like making your husband feel he's NOT part of the family. There is absolutely NO reason he shouldn't have been included.




p9 put perspective on it that was missing. She's conflict avoidant and a pleaser. I can understand that people like that say things in a situation to minimize conflict. It's not good but it's a pattern I've seen.

So if she is truly apologetic and you believe that's what caused her to respond this way, then that takes a bit of the sting out, I suspect.

Hopefully you can use this, gently, going forward to talk about ways for her to gain confidence to express her actual feelings more often, rather than suppressing them situationally to avoid conflict.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## No Longer Lonely Husband (Nov 3, 2015)

Not right. Call me suspicious but she and him would likely be bumping fuzz. Be the man. She can't go


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> No. He was an exchange student when they first met, and the next time he began to make fairly regular trips to the U.S. (once a year with some years skipped), we were adults and already in a relationship. She would have been in elementary school when he came over the first time.


And this explains why she thinks he's an arrogant prick, but still wants to visit with him. He's been a friend of the family since they were young children. They claim him. He's as good as a brother or cousin to them. He may be an ass, but he's family as far as they're concerned. I've got a couple of those, myself. I actually wouldn't be necessarily choose them for friends now, but we've been friends since forever and we don't see each other often. I enjoy those guys in groups and sparingly.

My family are rude, crude, and obnoxious. They're loud, swear like sailors, like to joke around a lot, and have been known to say "Hold my beer and watch this!" on land and sea. MY DH doesn't much like them and, hell, neither do I. They are family, though, and sometimes I have a yen to down a few beers and enjoy their insanity. I go alone unless my father is there manning the grill. Only then does DH want to accompany me.

Yes, there have been a couple times DH was specifically excluded because we were meeting at a restaurant or bar with a long time family friend. I simply told him we wanted it to just be <my maiden names> and he understood. 

DH has a family he grew up with, a brother and sister, and remained semi-close to into adulthood. The sister moved overseas. On one of her trips home to visit, she wanted to have a few drinks and some food with DH and her brother at the restaurant they used to go to when they were young. No biggie.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

MJJEAN said:


> And this explains why she thinks he's an arrogant prick, but still wants to visit with him. He's been a friend of the family since they were young children. They claim him. He's as good as a brother or cousin to them. He may be an ass, but he's family as far as they're concerned. I've got a couple of those, myself. I actually wouldn't be necessarily choose them for friends now, but we've been friends since forever and we don't see each other often. I enjoy those guys in groups and sparingly.
> 
> My family are rude, crude, and obnoxious. They're loud, swear like sailors, like to joke around a lot, and have been known to say "Hold my beer and watch this!" on land and sea. MY DH doesn't much like them and, hell, neither do I. They are family, though, and sometimes I have a yen to down a few beers and enjoy their insanity. I go alone unless my father is there manning the grill. Only then does DH want to accompany me.
> 
> ...


Both my wife and I have family like this, along with the adopted, and honorary family. For us though, becoming a spouse is becoming part of that. While we have both declined casual family get togethers,

I just cannot relate in any way to a spouse being explicitly excluded like that. To me, it seems like it's setting different tiers of who is family and who is an outsider... you're family, except when you're not.

ETA: I will add that there have been a few times where my wife and I have excluded eachother from family issues, but the context of those times where a specific meeting with a family member going through something specific, not just casual get togethers to catch up.


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## Capt. Cootie (Feb 22, 2013)

I read your first post was immediately pissed off. First I would not go and meet that guy and second I am not anybody's babysitter after being disrespected like that. Just my 2 cents. 
 Good Luck


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## Middle of Everything (Feb 19, 2012)

samyeagar said:


> I just cannot relate in any way to a spouse being explicitly excluded like that. To me, it seems like it's setting different tiers of who is family and who is an outsider... you're family, except when you're not.


You havent met my MiL. Married 15 years, been around 18. I'm family......kind of. Shes the type of person that views me as partial outsider forever. 

Yeah doesnt make sense. How exactly do families come to be? Duh. But to people like that? Replaceable, you are always replaceable.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

samyeagar said:


> Both my wife and I have family like this, along with the adopted, and honorary family. For us though, becoming a spouse is becoming part of that. While we have both declined casual family get togethers,
> 
> I just cannot relate in any way to a spouse being explicitly excluded like that. To me, it seems like it's setting different tiers of who is family and who is an outsider... you're family, except when you're not.
> 
> ETA: I will add that there have been a few times where my wife and I have excluded each other from family issues, but the context of those times where a specific meeting with a family member going through something specific, not just casual get togethers to catch up.


Spouses become part of the family, but that doesn't mean they need be invited to every meet up that involves family. Note the parents and cousins aren't invited. Does that mean they're seen as not family? No. They're just not part of the core group of the brothers, the friend, and the OP's wife.

Also, it does sound like this friend is having a rough time. The roller coaster and needing smooth sailing comments. So, it is reasonable to think he may want to do a bit of crying in his beer and on the shoulders of his lifelong friends. For him, it'd be real awkward to do that with someone else there.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

Blondilocks said:


> "I think it's too delicious of an idea to pass up."
> 
> You might want to rethink this.
> 
> ...


In most likelihood, I don't think this event is going to take place after all. I spoke to my BIL today. He didn't know that this was even being planned, and this is the guy that's basically the same age as the family friend. I let my BIL know what the family friend tried to do where he excluded me from this activity that he (family friend) was planning. BIL said he didn't know anything about trying to exclude me and he told me that he wouldn't like it to be exclusive like that. BIL even said that he does not care to go to this event - because he's been directly affected by alcohol in previous marriages. Around this time, the wife came over and she asked her brother his opinion on why the family kisses this family friend's ass despite acknowledging that he's a true blue asswhole. BIL doesn't really know why. He did say that he is not all that close to the guy anymore and that the one family member with the closest relationship to the family friend (by far) is my MIL. No, I don't think my MIL wants to see our marriage fail. She's a good Catholic, i.e. she tries to practice what they preach. 

I'm almost positive that I will not be attending any night at the bar with the family friend. I'm 100% sure that my wife will not be going.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

GusPolinski said:


> My biggest issue would be the guy flatly -- and very intentionally -- excluding/uninviting/not inviting me.
> 
> Oh, and my wife gleefully going along with it.


Yep and if it were me the wife's ass would not be going and his ass would be permanently blocked. No further discussion needed. Period.

Why would you put up with this **** in your marriage with someone who isn't even family.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Capt. Cootie said:


> I read your first post was immediately pissed off. First I would not go and meet that guy and second I am not anybody's babysitter after being disrespected like that. Just my 2 cents.
> Good Luck


Taking care of his own children is not babysitting.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> Taking care of his own children is not babysitting.


Exactly. Despite the wife and friend telling each other that Plan9 would stay his ass home and babysit..


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## chillymorn69 (Jun 27, 2016)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> If I was out with my brothers and family and my husband showed up to check on me and see my reaction I think they would stage an intervention to get me out of there.
> 
> She's not going alone with this guy, her brothers are there. If he can't trust her enough to not have an affair while out with her family then they have much bigger problems.


I agree they have a much bigger problem ,the exchange stinks and is very disrespectful . So I don't reccumend that he burry his head in the sand and be passive about it . 

It sounded bad he actually told her not to bring her husband are you kidding me and she giggled back yea he can kept his ass home.

And and in my opinion your mimanizing it. 

Were going to have to agree to disagree on this one. RESPECT from my wife is important too me.


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## chillymorn69 (Jun 27, 2016)

EleGirl said:


> Taking care of his own children is not babysitting.


Samantics 

Its just a phrase most parents ues it. And everybody knows what you mean.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

samyeagar said:


> Exactly. Despite the wife and friend telling each other that Plan9 would stay his ass home and babysit..


Yea, if I found out that my husband told someone that I should stay my ass home and babysit, I would not be pleased at all. It's not about the babysitting. It's that "stay my ass home" is pretty harsh way to talk about me to someone else.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

Hmmmm so BIL wasn't even aware of the Meetup? Is it possible he was just trying to meet your w alone but make her think her siblings were going?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Tobyboy (Jun 13, 2013)

TheTruthHurts said:


> Hmmmm so BIL wasn't even aware of the Meetup? Is it possible he was just trying to meet your w alone but make her think her siblings were going?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That's what I was thinking. Also, your wife asking her own brother why the family likes kissing the family friends ass appears like a huge deflection considering she practically threw her husband under the bus! Major manipulator your wife is.


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## Archangel2 (Sep 25, 2014)

GusPolinski said:


> My biggest issue would be the guy flatly -- and very intentionally -- excluding/uninviting/not inviting me.
> 
> Oh, and my wife gleefully going along with it.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

P9 - Is there any way you can go back to see if she's done anything like this before, especially the lying and disrespect?


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## Capt. Cootie (Feb 22, 2013)

Archangel2 said:


> :iagree::iagree::iagree:
> 
> P9 - Is there any way you can go back to see if she's done anything like this before, especially the lying and disrespect?


Didn't she do the same thing last year?


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

Wife never did anything like this before from as far as I know. No, I didn't have a thread like this last year where the wife did this before. Actually, MIL and the other BIL was aware of the plans for the get together, so the family friend did not try to get my wife one on one. I have to BIL's. The younger one was aware of the plans (not the exclusion part) and the older one was kinda clueless. It looks like we have this issue resolved to my satisfaction. There were no red flags prior to this nor are there any red flags today. I think it was a one off.

Thanks everyone for your help!


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Holy crap. I would be fuming if my spouse/SO ever had a text exchange like that about me. Completely disrespectful and secretive. And I don't think it's "innocent" at all. More likely there were some flirtations and unresolved crushes from all those years ago when he was an exchange student, or the years following (pre P9) when they would all meet up.

I thought the text exchange was somewhat flirtatious. He's fishing (and she's playing along) to see how far he can take it. Hell no, she should not go and exclude you.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> Wife never did anything like this before from as far as I know. No, I didn't have a thread like this last year where the wife did this before. Actually, MIL and the other BIL was aware of the plans for the get together, so the family friend did not try to get my wife one on one. I have to BIL's. The younger one was aware of the plans (not the exclusion part) and the older one was kinda clueless. It looks like we have this issue resolved to my satisfaction. There were no red flags prior to this nor are there any red flags today. I think it was a one off.
> 
> Thanks everyone for your help!


Look can I give you a bit of advice and this is from the heart.Ring this ******* and tell him to go and **** himself and to stay away from you and your wife.This passive behaviour from your inlaws to a guy they profess to dislike pisses me off no end.
"**** off" is a universal language that everyone understands.
There will be no misunderstandings.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

Ugh, I cringed reading that exchange.  

I can't imagine talking like that to anyone, about my husband. I think you have every right to be offended and hurt. This guy is a JERK... why is she friends with someone who has so little respect for her and her marriage?

Oops, I just noticed there are ten pages ...I always do this, post my reply after reading the OP, then it all gets resolved.


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## TX-SC (Aug 25, 2015)

Andy1001 said:


> Look can I give you a bit of advice and this is from the heart.Ring this ******* and tell him to go and **** himself and to stay away from you and your wife.This passive behaviour from your inlaws to a guy they profess to dislike pisses me off no end.
> "**** off" is a universal language that everyone understands.
> There will be no misunderstandings.


I think his wife refusing to attend will be a pretty good F-you.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

TX-SC said:


> I think his wife refusing to attend will be a pretty good F-you.


I agree but he needs to be told why she is not turning up,not given some lame excuse.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Okay, maybe I missed it, but did she ever explain what she meant about what you did the other time? I'm with everyone about her insult, but what would bother me more is hiding something I did so, I can't fix it or explain the behavior which irritated my wife. I can get over the name calling, wrong as it is, but not some type of shared secret mistake I may have made.


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## Capt. Cootie (Feb 22, 2013)

Capt. Cootie said:


> Didn't she do the same thing last year?




HIM: My life...is like a Rollercoaster! Hang on tight...cos' it will be a white-knuckle ride! Looking forward to seeing you guys this summer! I hope you will be free for a beer with your siblings on at least one night?

HIM: You can get P9 to babysit (note, youngest kid we have is 11...)

WIFE: Looking forward to it!!! You only live once, ride it to the fullest.

HIM: Jesus, P9's wife, I could do with just a little bit of plain sailing! I'm just fecked!

WIFE: Was planning on it. He did last year. LOL. He can stay his ass home.

HIM: Good plan! Leave his ass at home. We need a catch up with the (her maid name)!

WIFE: That's the only way to live. Plain sailing is boring.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My mistake, I thought you "stayed your ass home" last year too. I am glad you got things resolved.


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## Sparta (Sep 4, 2014)

After reading it again you're talking about f.ucking,  and he's OK with that and oh yeah they definitely had something going on. I mean the more I think about this just men idiots. He is and see if there's a problem that if I would've saw that s.hit would hit the fan...


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