# Verbally and Emotionally Abusive Wife



## Jonny Be Confused

There doesn't seem to be a lot of threads on verbally abusive wife's and not a lot of info online.

This was interesting and discouraging to read
Your Verbally Abusive Wife, What Can You Do? - HealthyPlace

I have not been on the forum long but have read some good stuff, especially about the fitness testing.

So I am curious what you all have to say about dealing with a verbally abusive wife.

In my situation about half the time my wife is very cold natured and abrupt, abrasive about things. If we are talking about something that we need to decide on and she wants to do one thing and I want to do another I can try to explain why it is a good idea to do one thing and about 75% of the time she will start to get very cold and abrasive pushing what she wants to do and won't give me a chance to even explain my perspective. I think this is a manipulation tactic and I find it very irritating.

We do have plenty of times were we get along and enjoy being around each other but it seems like those times are getting fewer and farther away. This has been going on for many years.

The main part I am having a hard time dealing with is the attacks and insults she will dish out any time we are in an argument or debate that she is losing. Some times it is light and some times very brutal, insulting my mother that has past away brutal.

For example, I work a side job and my employer gave me a gift card for Christmas. I told them thank you very much. My wife bought a gift card for them that has been sitting in a drawer for weeks, I found it and asked what it was for, she said to give a gift back to the side employer. I said it has been several weeks so I would be embarrassed to give it to them now (Keep in mind I work several hours through the year for free for them) since so much time has passed.

(I took the test by Gary Chapman and the one where you value kind words and affection where the highest, of course  )

This devolved into a argument with me stating it was stupid to give the gift so long after the fact to her insulting me in every way possible, I work my butt off constantly to try and provide a better future for us (no kids yet), from insulting me that I am trying to build a business and it is working out great (seriously), to saying I can't provide financially which I do very well, on to insulting my parents and problems that she unfortunately heard about, to insulting my passed away mother. Lines were crossed that should never be crossed. As well as some other things I am leaving out that are hurtful. This type of scenario happens about once a 1/4, but lesser intensity things go on all the time, weekly or bi-weekly.

What scares me is today I am very calm and at peace on once side and thinking of different options like separation or divorce. It is such a shame to throw away 18 years of marriage but what can someone do to fix this kind of problem or does it get to a point to where there is nothing that can fix it?

I do not want to get divorced but I also do not want to be 60 years old with a wife that verbally abuses me every time she doesn't get her way or is just in a bad mood. 

I am kind of liking the option of getting separated for 3-6 months, just so tired of dealing with constant stress and issues like the one mentioned above I think it would be a nice break to just not have to deal with this stuff all the time, usually about every week or two similar things come up in varying degrees.

When I have brought it up in the past she usually makes suggestions that she knows won't fly like me staying with my dad that doesn't have internet access and she knows good and well that wont work since I work from home many days and deal with our business online. I know she would also be very embarrassed for her friends and family to know we are separated which is the main reason I have not pursued it more in the past when things like this happen.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

Same thing about dealing with verbally abusive husbands, detach and protect yourself first. Btw, your own emotional health should come first before her self-image and what she wants to project towards others. You have to learn to prioritize yourself and what in the end will make you fulfilled and content, not her.


----------



## Lostinthought61

I knew this guy who played the stock market, his theory was that when times were bad he would invest more money into stocks and wait for the market to go back up and some how it worked for him, in a conversation i had with him several years ago, i asked if he ever read reports and articles about why a particular company stock was hurting and he basically said he just listened to the Bloomberg or like to get his news...so when a particular stock was hurting he just brought more of it and in the end he lost it all on one stock...Enron. I guess in a round about way you can try to reinvest in a marriage but if you don't think that management team will change then you are better off dumping it and reinvesting in yourself .


----------



## Kivlor

Jonny Be Confused said:


> In my situation about half the time my wife is very cold natured and abrupt, abrasive about things. If we are talking about something that we need to decide on and she wants to do one thing and I want to do another I can try to explain why it is a good idea to do one thing and about 75% of the time she will start to get very cold and abrasive pushing what she wants to do and won't give me a chance to even explain my perspective. I think this is a manipulation tactic and I find it very irritating.
> 
> We do have plenty of times were we get along and enjoy being around each other but it seems like those times are getting fewer and farther away. This has been going on for many years.
> 
> The main part I am having a hard time dealing with is the attacks and insults she will dish out any time we are in an argument or debate that she is losing. Some times it is light and some times very brutal, insulting my mother that has past away brutal...
> 
> When I have brought it up in the past she usually makes suggestions that she knows won't fly like me staying with my dad that doesn't have internet access and she knows good and well that wont work since I work from home many days and deal with our business online. I know she would also be very embarrassed for her friends and family to know we are separated which is the main reason I have not pursued it more in the past when things like this happen.


Sorry you're here, especially for this. Hopefully we can help you out a bit. First, you shouldn't leave the home in a separation; you should make her. 

What do you normally say / do when she insults you / your dead mother or otherwise gets verbally abusive? Does she get physical?


----------



## happy as a clam

How about some marriage counseling so the therapist can help your wife see how destructive her verbal abuse is? She may actually be able to learn some new communication skills and change the way she treats you.

If she refuses to go, then you have some difficult decisions to make.


----------



## Jonny Be Confused

Kivlor,
That's an interesting perspective about me not leaving, does this fall into the standing up for yourself mentality?

One of my biggest problems is when things get like this I will get mad and talk loud, not yelling but I will try to debate the subject with obvious irritation. One thing I am working on and it is difficult is not to get visually upset when these things happen but I am trying. I never go crazy screaming or throwing things, physically I stay sedentary and just talk loud, like "IF WE DO THIS THEN THIS WILL HAPPEN AND WILL BE MUCH WORSE" I usually remain calm at first for a good part of these issues and then just get irritated and mad at how its going down and how I am being treated and speak with a loud non yelling tone, maybe excitable is a good word?.

She does not get physical anymore but did pretty bad the first 5 years or so of marriage. Tried to stab me once, tried to run a car into another car head on once, tried to hit me in the head with a stick once, Threw large items that could seriously hurt someone several times, grab a gun in a threatening manner once but I do not think she would have used it. I have never hurt or hit her other than shoving her away from me after severely scratching my neck one time when we were first married, these actions were in response to arguments and her getting mad and throwing a fit nothing like one of us cheating or doing something really major that you might think would instigate this behavior. Thank God she does not get physical anymore, I made it very clear before when it happened the last time that I would not tolerate anything that would put me at harm physically.

The verbal abuse has been going on since we were dating 19 or so years ago. 

Here is another example. We went on a dream vacation to a nice resort in the Bahamas and had a great time overall but about three days were terrible. What started it was she has a food allergy, we went to one of the restaurants that cook on a open grill in front of the table. She asked me to make sure they know she is allergic to a certain food item. I said ok, the waiter was talking to everyone explaining how they do the meal, I let her know I would be certain to let the cook know when he comes out about the allergy so he would make sure to cook the allergen food last and not first, seems logical right? But she got mad and stood up and told the waiter who did not take food orders anyways instead of letting me take care of it. I tried to explain that I was going to tell the cook as soon as he came out because it would be fresh on his mind and we can make sure he is careful since we are watching him cook the food. It wasn't like we went back and forth about who to tell and when just a few words during normal conversation she said tell the waiter and I said it would be better to tell the cook and then boom.

So the entire dinner she gave me the cold shoulder, never made a big deal about it in front of my family or other guests with us but had an obvious attitude. So the next two days she acted rude, abrasive and cold to me, mostly in a passive aggressive manner but it is easy to tell there is a problem and then when we were in private like the room it would get rough, I would bring it up asking what's wrong in a normal fashion and she would proceed to tell me that I am a terrible husband, stupid, worthless, embarrassing to her, blahblahblah. During these times I do not apologize, we had issues like this for a few days and then she apologized and the vacation got back on track. Once things went south in our private conversations I showed irritation and made comments that I would like to enjoy the vacation and not fight or have any problems I.




happy as a clam said:


> How about some marriage counseling so the therapist can help your wife see how destructive her verbal abuse is? She may actually be able to learn some new communication skills and change the way she treats you.
> 
> If she refuses to go, then you have some difficult decisions to make.


That is something I am planning on suggesting, I don't know if she will. In the past a few times I have said we needed to go to counseling and she would change her attitude pretty quick, I think she knows how she is acting is not right and what a counselor would say.

I am not saying it is all her fault though, I have my problems too but I have made a lot of effort to live peacefully and not fight or have issues all the time. I work hard and provide more than she needs, she does not have to work full time.


----------



## Satya

Jonny Be Confused said:


> She does not get physical anymore but did pretty bad the first 5 years or so of marriage. Tried to stab me once, tried to run a car into another car head on once, tried to hit me in the head with a stick once, Threw large items that could seriously hurt someone several times, grab a gun in a threatening manner once but I do not think she would have used it. I have never hurt or hit her other than shoving her away from me after severely scratching my neck one time when we were first married, these actions were in response to arguments and her getting mad and throwing a fit nothing like one of us cheating or doing something really major that you might think would instigate this behavior. Thank God she does not get physical anymore...


Holy cats... Why did you stay with such an unstable person?


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

Satya said:


> Holy cats... Why did you stay with such an unstable person?


Seriously! 

OP be careful when it comes to leaving this woman (which you should) violent people like that can get worse when they feel their control leaving. Yes, she's not physical now but you know she can go there and actually leaving could result in even worse abuse. 

Tell people who can support you, have people there when you or her move out, even call the police to be there if you have no one else and this would be the time I would suggest a VAR, to make sure she doesn't say you did anything you didn't. 

Get all your stuff together, money and important papers, and call a lawyer about who should leave and how it should be done to protect you best.


----------



## Jonny Be Confused

Well, I guess I still felt love for her and still do now. We came a long way from that point. Looking back I should have left when some of these incidents happened. I am a lot bigger than her so I think she thought she could do whatever she wanted and it would bounce off or something but when you have someone even small they can seriously hurt someone that is not fighting back, I did protect myself though which is why I was never stabbed and not hit in the head with a stick, it did fracture my wrist though. 

I will heed the advise posted above if it comes to that.


----------



## Kivlor

Jonny Be Confused said:


> Kivlor,
> That's an interesting perspective about me not leaving, does this fall into the standing up for yourself mentality?


No, some jurisdictions consider leaving abandonment, and in a Divorce it could hurt you. You should know your local laws before moving out, so I always start with: Don't, make them instead.



> One of my biggest problems is when things get like this I will get mad and talk loud, not yelling but I will try to debate the subject with obvious irritation. One thing I am working on and it is difficult is not to get visually upset when these things happen but I am trying. I never go crazy screaming or throwing things, physically I stay sedentary and just talk loud, like "IF WE DO THIS THEN THIS WILL HAPPEN AND WILL BE MUCH WORSE" I usually remain calm at first for a good part of these issues and then just get irritated and mad at how its going down and how I am being treated and speak with a loud non yelling tone, maybe excitable is a good word?.


Work on that some more. You're going in the right direction. Personally, I'm a fan of taking someone by the hand, walking them out the door, and saying "You're not going to speak to me (or about my mom) like this. Come in when you're ready to treat me like a person and apologize". Then lock the door. Politely and firmly, no yelling or screaming or crying.



> She does not get physical anymore but did pretty bad the first 5 years or so of marriage. Tried to stab me once, tried to run a car into another car head on once, tried to hit me in the head with a stick once, Threw large items that could seriously hurt someone several times, grab a gun in a threatening manner once but I do not think she would have used it. *I have never hurt or hit her other than shoving her away from me after severely scratching my neck one time when we were first married, these actions were in response to arguments and her getting mad and throwing a fit nothing like one of us cheating or doing something really major that you might think would instigate this behavior.* Thank God she does not get physical anymore, I made it very clear before when it happened the last time that I would not tolerate anything that would put me at harm physically.


Wow. Just, wow. Personally, I think the section in bold is part of the problem. I'd have knocked her out cold. Violence begets violence, and women shouldn't be immune. It's too late now though.

At least she's not physical anymore. Do you mind telling me, why did you stay with someone who tried to stab you? 



> The verbal abuse has been going on since we were dating 19 or so years ago.


I thought as much. It will continue until she understands that this is unacceptable behavior. What convinced you to marry your wife, someone who was physically and verbally abusive to you? 

Did you grow up with women who treated you like this? (Ie mom, aunts, cousins, etc?)

You both should get into counseling.


----------



## karole

Your wife sounds like a toddler having tantrums. Do her parents treat her like a princess and she is used to getting her way about everything? It sure sounds like it. 

This is what I would do in your situation: Print off divorce papers on-line and fill them out. Hand a copy to her. Then you tell her that she has ONE chance to work on the marriage, and by that you mean that she starts individual counseling for her anger and marriage counseling with you to work on your communication skills. If she refuses either, then tell her you will be filing the divorce petition the very next day - AND THEN DO IT!!

If she doesn't agree to your terms, she doesn't value you or your marriage, so you know where you stand and what you have to do.


----------



## Kivlor

karole said:


> Your wife sounds like a toddler having tantrums. Do her parents treat her like a princess and she is used to getting her way about everything? It sure sounds like it.
> 
> This is what I would do in your situation: Print off divorce papers on-line and fill them out. Hand a copy to her. Then you tell her that she has ONE chance to work on the marriage, and by that you mean that she starts individual counseling for her anger and marriage counseling with you to work on your communication skills. If she refuses either, then tell her you will be filing the divorce petition the very next day - AND THEN DO IT!!
> 
> If she doesn't agree to your terms, she doesn't value you or your marriage, so you know where you stand and what you have to do.


That may have been the right thing 15 years ago. He's let it go this long, I'd say it's worth his time to get counseling for both of them first.


----------



## Relationship Teacher

Jonny Be Confused said:


> So I am curious what you all have to say about dealing with a verbally abusive wife.


Emotional abuse may only be received, not given (theoretical statement).

It really comes down to whether or not you want to be happy. When you desire happiness, you no longer let your attention be dominated by negativity. In time, you may learn to no longer accept verbal abuse as negative. If my partner says anything remotely "negative" it is because she is suffering. Instead of me feeling victimized, I see the cause of it and can be empathetic. By not receiving negativity, it disallows individuals to remain in a negative emotional state. Humans function by attempting to match energies. The giver of negativity will expect the negative reception, meaning you will match her energy. If you don't receive negativity, she will be forced to match you.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

Buddy, seriously, whether it is through arguments or not, having self control is a sign of mental and emotional maturity. Lack of impulse control is a major problem.

Btw, look for resources to help you leave someone that highly unstable since she never worked on her issues, her behavior is still there, lying beneath the surface waiting for a trigger to set her off again.

You should look up the cycle of abuse and realize that you are a victim and do not be ashamed. You were manipulated and her actions cause or help further reinforce your response to her in unhealthy manners.

One will stay a victim due to one's own mental traps such as you prioritizing her over yourself and her wants.

It should be your own well-being over others.

Please do some research on cycle of abuse again. There is a reason why it is called a cycle and why you are constantly in that position to be abused.

The goal is never the marriage, but your safety and mental health.


----------



## jld

Jonny Be Confused said:


> One of my biggest problems is when things get like this I will get mad and talk loud, not yelling but I will try to debate the subject with obvious irritation. One thing I am working on and it is difficult is not to get visually upset when these things happen but I am trying. I never go crazy screaming or throwing things, physically I stay sedentary and just talk loud, like "IF WE DO THIS THEN THIS WILL HAPPEN AND WILL BE MUCH WORSE" I usually remain calm at first for a good part of these issues and then just get irritated and mad at how its going down and how I am being treated and speak with a loud non yelling tone, maybe excitable is a good word?.


Any emotional reaction like this is likely to escalate the conflict. Try to remain calm.

Instead of defending yourself or trying to reason with her, listen to what she is saying. Try to hear what is bothering her, and not just her tone of voice or her angry words.



> She does not get physical anymore but did pretty bad the first 5 years or so of marriage. Tried to stab me once, tried to run a car into another car head on once, tried to hit me in the head with a stick once, Threw large items that could seriously hurt someone several times, grab a gun in a threatening manner once but I do not think she would have used it. I have never hurt or hit her other than shoving her away from me after severely scratching my neck one time when we were first married, these actions were in response to arguments and her getting mad and throwing a fit nothing like one of us cheating or doing something really major that you might think would instigate this behavior. Thank God she does not get physical anymore, I made it very clear before when it happened the last time that I would not tolerate anything that would put me at harm physically.


I can certainly see this being a dealbreaker. I am glad it is in the past.



> Here is another example. We went on a dream vacation to a nice resort in the Bahamas and had a great time overall but about three days were terrible. What started it was she has a food allergy, we went to one of the restaurants that cook on a open grill in front of the table. She asked me to make sure they know she is allergic to a certain food item. I said ok, the waiter was talking to everyone explaining how they do the meal, I let her know I would be certain to let the cook know when he comes out about the allergy so he would make sure to cook the allergen food last and not first, seems logical right? But she got mad and stood up and told the waiter who did not take food orders anyways instead of letting me take care of it. I tried to explain that I was going to tell the cook as soon as he came out because it would be fresh on his mind and we can make sure he is careful since we are watching him cook the food. It wasn't like we went back and forth about who to tell and when just a few words during normal conversation she said tell the waiter and I said it would be better to tell the cook and then boom.


She did not trust you to keep her safe. She felt she had to do it herself.

Why would she feel that way about you? Does she feel you have disappointed her in that way many times in the past?



> So the entire dinner she gave me the cold shoulder, never made a big deal about it in front of my family or other guests with us but had an obvious attitude. So the next two days she acted rude, abrasive and cold to me, mostly in a passive aggressive manner but it is easy to tell there is a problem and then when we were in private like the room it would get rough, I would bring it up asking what's wrong in a normal fashion and she would proceed to tell me that I am a terrible husband, stupid, worthless, embarrassing to her, blahblahblah. During these times I do not apologize, we had issues like this for a few days and then she apologized and the vacation got back on track. Once things went south in our private conversations I showed irritation and made comments that I would like to enjoy the vacation and not fight or have any problems


I think using active listening would be helpful. Basically you just repeat her words back to her, or paraphrase, or ask her an open-ended question.

"Wife, it really upset you that I did not talk to the waiter right away about your shellfish concerns. You felt you could not trust me to keep you safe? You had to do it yourself?"

"I can see why that would upset you. You were counting on me, and I disappointed you. How do you think we could handle something like this better the next time?"



> That is something I am planning on suggesting, I don't know if she will. In the past a few times I have said we needed to go to counseling and she would change her attitude pretty quick, I think she knows how she is acting is not right and what a counselor would say.
> 
> I am not saying it is all her fault though, I have my problems too but I have made a lot of effort to live peacefully and not fight or have issues all the time. I work hard and provide more than she needs, she does not have to work full time.


Does she work at all? Could she start?


----------



## Jonny Be Confused

Thank you all for the replies. I am going to try to answer as much as I can in order.

Kivlor,
I remain calm and never throw or bash stuff together just show irritation and talk at a high but not yelling volume. I am working on it, it is difficult but much better, I usually remain calm and talk normal during most issues and when the verbal abuse starts I can only go so long some of the time and get irritated. I see what you mean but if I walked her out and locked the doors I believe she would throw bricks through the windows.

When things get abusive should I just leave the room immediately?

On the next comment, I agree, I let certain behavior go too long and made the mistake of not following through with ultimatums in the past. After about 5 years I started to not put up with a lot of the stuff going on and things did get much better after that point.

I did love her when we got married and still do, she was my first serious girlfriend and we married at 19 years old so my experience was pretty much nothing. The interesting thing is I grew up in a very supportive family, no verbal or physical abuse from anyone male or female, maybe that is one reason why it hurts so much. Some things I would not say to my enemy but here is my wife saying it to me. 

BUT, I think this is part of the problem. Her mother was very verbally and lightly physically abusive with her father sometimes and she had other male figures in her family that I have heard her and sisters talk very badly about. Like accusing them of stealing money (that the guy worked for) from the family. This part I did not know until after being married several years.
==============================


Karole,
You may have a point. She grew up in a poor family that lived in a rich city and her mom went way out of her way to buy things for her, eat out at nice restaurants etc.

I agree with the counseling idea.
==============================

Relationship Teacher,
It’s interesting the last year or so I have started making up my mind that when issues happen I am not going to let it ruin my day or change my happiness level and it has worked and helped a lot but obviously still working on this habit. A lot I have learned to ignore but there are certain lines that you just don’t cross.

One issue is when we are talking about a subject that could turn into a fight. Sometimes I can stay calm through the whole thing and sometimes it goes this way… We talk about it, she gets irritated, I stay calm and cool, she gets more irritated and I try to calmly explain my point of view and she gets mad, yells and some insults, I try to stay calm, she cuts me off when I try to talk or talks over me and will not consider what I am staying, I stay calm but start increasing my voice and become agitated otherwise she will run right over me like a lawnmower.

Conversations are reasonable sometimes and sometimes they go like above.
==============================


Mr. Fisty,

That is interesting and I will look that up. I can definitely see a cycle of ups and downs of the flow of things and situations like this. 

I have always been raised with a very gentlemanly attitude and always put her first, putting my own needs first will be difficult, although I can feel myself naturally going that way. I am so tired, so tired of walking on glass not knowing what the next trigger is going to be. This is why I thought about getting separated for a while and just live in peace and not worry about it.
==============================


Jld,
I agree and is the main reason why I have made a lot of effort the last many years to remain as calm as I can and a lot of times I do and it helps but many times it does not matter and will just get worse. Either I walk away or I have to stand up for myself. When I say talk loud I don’t mean scream. Like you are talking to someone about 15 or so feet from you, or in a car with a window rolled down.

I can handle tone and anger much better than I can handle the verbal abuse. When the verbal abuse or disrespect starts is when I start to show irritation, although it is getting better and sometimes I am able to remain calm, this usually does not stop her reaction but it does help me not get as stressed or end up with a migraine later that night.

What I don’t get about the restaurant is it wasn’t a real obvious problem at the time, it wasn’t totally clear to me what the issue was until after the fact but I knew she became cold and irritated.

This is a totally anonymous forum, no one knows me, so I have no reason to lie... I do not have any idea what so ever why she would feel that I would not keep her safe. I have always stood up for her with other people that gave her a hard time, with issues in previous jobs, against family members, if we travel I make extra effort to make sure we are protected and prepared, for times when I cannot be with her I stress to her personal safety and awareness. I have always worked hard and made good money, thank God. I am making serious plans all the time for our future so that we are financially taken care of. I care about her emotionally and when she is down or depressed.

For most of our marriage she basically has refused to work other than part time some the first year or two. She did had a health issue about 7 years ago and legitimately couldn’t do much for a few years. The last 5 years she has worked at home part time on her own schedule in a very relaxed manner.


----------



## jld

It seems like she was very concerned about not eating that particular food. If she got up to tell a waiter before you had, I am guessing she felt you were not doing your job quickly enough, which was, in her mind, to keep her safe from eating that particular food. Just a guess, as I am obviously not in her head.

You did say she eventually apologized. It is just too bad that it took 2-3 days. Lost time.

To better deal with her anger while remaining calm yourself, I would suggest learning about active listening. It is a way of talking to an angry person that calms them down, helps you understand what they are upset about, and helps them be able to eventually listen to *you*.

3 main ways to do this:

*Repeat their words back to them
*Paraphrase what they said
*Ask an open-ended question


----------



## EleGirl

Jonny Be Confused said:


> Well, I guess I still felt love for her and still do now. We came a long way from that point. Looking back I should have left when some of these incidents happened. I am a lot bigger than her so I think she thought she could do whatever she wanted and it would bounce off or something but when you have someone even small they can seriously hurt someone that is not fighting back, I did protect myself though which is why I was never stabbed and not hit in the head with a stick, it did fracture my wrist though.
> 
> I will heed the advise posted above if it comes to that.


I know a woman who was like your wife. She too was married to a guy who was a lot bigger than she. One day in an argument, she picked up a phone (one of those old land-line phones) and hit him in the head. He fell over dead. She's doing a lot of years in prison.

It's probably true that if she uses her hands, she cannot hurt you much if at all. But smaller people will often use weapons... anything close by that they can grab.

Can she change? She has to want to change. There are things that you can do, like just walk away from her when she starts to yell/argue. Tell her that you will not participate in an angry exchange. 

The only reason that I'm not telling you that you need to get away from her asap is that you ways it's been over 10 years since the last time she tried to hurt you physically. But you need to be careful. If she is upset enough, that behavior can come back.

You need to get a counselor because you clearly have no idea how to handle this situation. Leaving is probably your best bet.

You also need to see an attorney, without telling her, to know what your rights are. For example if you move out of your home, is that considered abandonment? What are the criteria for abandonment in your state? You need to find that out.


----------



## Mr The Other

You need a lawyer first of all. There is a lot of advice, but see a professional.


----------



## sapientia

You're a battered husband! I am so sorry. Can you document at least some of what she did?

I wouldn't be worried about abandonment just getting away from her. She's crazy. You will need counselling to help you recover.


----------



## Adelais

Have you read Love Busters by Willard Harley? You can read about what they are on his website, Marriage Builders, and also buy the book there.

Perhaps you and your wife can read it together. When I read some of my own behaviors in it, I was more motivated to work on them, because I realized that I could very well be killing my husband's love for me, and he would be justified in leaving me someday if I kill his love with love busting behaviors. My husband has also been able to identify his love busting behaviors that have pushed me away over the years, and he is he is working on himself too.

If your wife sees herself on paper, and realizes that her behaviors are not going unnoticed, and are very serious, causing you to stop loving her someday, she might be motivated to get help to change.


----------



## farsidejunky

Relationship Teacher said:


> Emotional abuse may only be received, not given (theoretical statement).
> 
> It really comes down to whether or not you want to be happy. When you desire happiness, you no longer let your attention be dominated by negativity. In time, you may learn to no longer accept verbal abuse as negative. If my partner says anything remotely "negative" it is because she is suffering. Instead of me feeling victimized, I see the cause of it and can be empathetic. By not receiving negativity, it disallows individuals to remain in a negative emotional state. Humans function by attempting to match energies. The giver of negativity will expect the negative reception, meaning you will match her energy. If you don't receive negativity, she will be forced to match you.


While this is true in theory, happiness also involves surrounding yourself with people who bring you joy, not suck it from you.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## farsidejunky

OP:

Are you familiar with the Karpman Drama Triangle? 

Part of your problem is that you are stuck in it...with her. Find your way to the center to see things more clearly.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Uptown

Jon, the behaviors you describe -- i.e., verbal and physical abuse, controlling behavior, easily triggered temper tantrums, drama seeking, lack of impulse control, low empathy, and always being "The Victim" -- are classic warning signs for BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). Importantly, I'm not suggesting your W has full-blown BPD but, rather, that she may exhibit moderate to strong traits of it.

I caution that BPD is not something a person "has" or "doesn't have." Instead, it is a "spectrum" disorder, which means every adult on the planet occasionally exhibits all BPD traits to some degree (albeit at a low level if the person is healthy). At issue, then, is not whether your W exhibits BPD traits. Of course she does. We all do. 

Rather, at issue is whether she exhibits those traits at a strong and persistent level (i.e., is on the upper end of the BPD spectrum). Not having met her, I cannot answer that question. I nonetheless believe you can spot any strong BPD warning signs that are present if you take a little time to learn which behaviors are on the list. They are not difficult to spot because there is nothing subtle about behaviors such as always being "The Victim," lack of impulse control, and temper tantrums.



Jonny Be Confused said:


> Tried to stab me once, tried to run a car into another car head on once, tried to hit me in the head with a stick once, Threw large items that could seriously hurt someone several times, grab a gun in a threatening manner once....


Intense, inappropriate anger is one of the nine defining traits for BPD. If your W is a BPDer (i.e., has strong BPD traits), she carries enormous anger inside from early childhood. You therefore don't have to do a thing to CREATE the anger. Rather, you only have to do or say some minor thing that TRIGGERS a release of the anger that is already there. 

This is why a BPDer can burst into a rage in only ten seconds. Moreover, BPDers have very weak control over their emotions. Indeed, the key defining characteristic of BPD is the inability to regulate one's own emotions because a BPDer's emotional development typically is frozen at age 3 or 4. As @*karole* stated, your W "like a toddler having tantrums" if she has strong BPD traits.

Because BPDers have little control over their emotions, the _physical_ abuse of a spouse or partner has been found to be strongly associated with BPD. One of the first studies showing that link is a 1993 hospital study of spousal batterers. It found that nearly all of them have a personality disorder and half of them have BPD. See Roger Melton's summary of that study at *50% of Batterers are BPDers*. Similarly, a *2008 study* and a *2012 study* find a strong association between violence and BPD. 



> We went on a dream vacation to a nice resort in the Bahamas and had a great time overall but about three days were terrible.


Likewise, my BPDer exW would sabotage several days of our most wonderful vacations. The reason is that, although BPDers crave intimacy just like nearly every adult does, they cannot tolerate it for very long because they quickly start to feel "controlled" and suffocated by your strong personality. Because BPDers have a weak, fragile sense of who they are, they quickly start to feel like they are losing themselves into the strong personalities of their partners.

The result is that it is common for BPDers to start the very WORST fights -- to push you away so as to give them breathing space -- immediately after the very BEST of times. My BPDer exW, for example, typically would start a fight -- over absolutely nothings at all -- right after a great weekend or intimate evening or in the middle of a great vacation.



> She would proceed to tell me that I am a terrible husband, stupid, worthless, embarrassing to her.


If she is a BPDer (i.e., has strong BPD traits), this devaluation behavior is to be expected. Because BPDers are emotionally unstable, they will flip -- in only ten seconds -- between Jekyll (adoring you) and Hyde (devaluing, or even hating, you). As is true for very young children, BPDers don't see the middle ground between those polar extremes because they are too emotionally immature to handle ambiguities and strong conflicting feelings toward their loved ones. The resulting behavior is called "black-white thinking," which I describe at one of the links provided below.



> [Marriage counseling] is something I am planning on suggesting.


If your W's BPD traits are at a low to moderate level, MC may prove helpful. If they are at a strong level, however, MC likely will be a total waste of time. Although many MCs are excellent at teaching simple communication skills, a BPDer's issues go far beyond the lack of such skills. When BPD traits are strong and persistent, what is needed is several years (at least) of intensive individual therapy to teach her the emotional skills she had no opportunity to learn in childhood. But, sadly, it is rare for a BPDer to be willing to work hard in such a therapy program.



> What can someone do to fix this kind of problem or does it get to a point to where there is nothing that can fix it?


If she has strong and persistent BPD traits, she is the only person who can address it by learning how to manage those traits. Because that learning process is strictly an "inside job," there is nothing you can do to help her if she is not strongly self-motivated to work hard in therapy.

I therefore suggest you take a quick look at my list of 18 BPD Warning Signs to see if most sound very familiar. If so, I would suggest you also read my more detailed description of them at my posts in Rebel's Thread. If that description rings many bells, I would be glad to join the other respondents in discussing them with you. 

I also would suggest you see a psychologist -- for a visit or two all by yourself -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is you're dealing with. Importantly, this should be a psychologist who has never treated or seen your W. That way, you are assured he is ethically bound to protect only YOUR best interests, not hers.

Significantly, learning to spot these warning signs will NOT enable you to diagnose your exGF's issues. Only a professional can do that. Yet, like learning warning signs for stroke and heart attack, learning those for BPD may help you avoid prolonging a very painful situation. Take care, Jon.


----------



## Shoto1984

Uptown got to this before I did (as I continue projecting my experience onto others  ) She might be a BPD person and as such nothing you can do is going to "fix" it. YOU decide to deal with it or not. There is no good choice. Either path will require a lot to protect your emotional health. Also, while BPD might be an explanation it is not an excuse. I echo the "see a professional" advise.


----------



## turnera

Three things. First, read the book No More Mr Nice Guy. You need to re-educate yourself about what normal behavior (on your part) looks like. PLEASE read it; you will be amazed.

Second, learn to control yourself. You admit that you escalate. So STOP. You KNOW what's coming if you stand up to her and try to out-argue her. So stop interacting. You've got the brains to do this. Just stop.

Third, WHEN she raises her voice, you need to change the dynamics. How? By refusing to participate. Avoiding abuse 101: If you raise your voice at me, I will leave the room for 20 minutes; we'll try to discuss this later when we can do it without raising voices. And then LEAVE THE ROOM. If she tries to pick up where she left off when you return, turn right back around and leave for an hour. If she does it again, leave the house and go for a walk or a drive. If she does it again, go stay somewhere else for the night. If she does it again the next day, go stay somewhere else for TWO nights. Then three. Then four. Show her that you will no longer participate in blame-throwing, voice-raising, nonproductive spats - when she is ready to talk to you as a civilized person, you will be more than happy to do so; until then, you will not be participating with her, period. TEACH her how to treat you.

And I echo the responses to look into the signs of BPD.


----------



## andydrew

If your not happy move on. At least there's no kids involved. Kids really complicate things.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## happy as a clam

OP... Are you still here? You've gotten some great advice... Just wondering if you're following any of it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## tech-novelist

Fortunately, since you have no kids, this is simple. Divorce her.


----------



## Maxo

Jonny Be Confused said:


> Well, I guess I still felt love for her and still do now. We came a long way from that point. Looking back I should have left when some of these incidents happened. I am a lot bigger than her so I think she thought she could do whatever she wanted and it would bounce off or something but when you have someone even small they can seriously hurt someone that is not fighting back, I did protect myself though which is why I was never stabbed and not hit in the head with a stick, it did fracture my wrist though.
> 
> I will heed the advise posted above if it comes to that.[/QUOTE
> 
> 
> You are joking,right?


----------



## MenMarsWomenVenus

My wife is verbally and emotionally abusive, and things got that bad and messed up that it actually helped me to develop depression, an anxiety disorder, and PTSD which I am all recovering from now. This woman was so skilled she had me thinking I was going insane and things were all my fault when in fact it was her who was the complete nut case manipulating every single move of mine for her own selfish needs.

She was also cold, abrupt, and had the worst short fuse you've ever seen. When she blew (and she blows regularly) she's like a wild animal attacking you, it absolutely kills your self-esteem and your spirit and I've been a broken man for 6 years. I finished her at the weekend and although she's still in the house I have felt better in the last 5 days then I have in years, as I am simply not taking this sh*t anymore, that's it. 

These women are seriously dangerous and they learn these tactics as children, who scream and have temper tantrums when they don't get what they want. If I even smell this on another woman in the future she'll be kicked to gutter before you can say jack rabbit! My advice from a 10 year relationship and 2 year marriage, RUN FOR THE HILLS MATE, RUN FOR THE HILLS!!!!

This woman almost landed me in a looney bin, she messed me up that badly! But I'm strong and I am male again now, and I ain't taking no sh*t, so get your alpha back and kick her f*ck out


----------



## jnyu44

So sorry you are going through this. My wife of several years is the same: a very short fuse, verbally and physically abusive, throws tantrums, blames everyone and refuses to seek help. 

Don't have a child with her for whatever reason, even if you think the relationship is improving. I thought mine was but am kicking myself for not waiting longer to see if the change was authentic. 

You absolutely have to take care of yourself. Remember the three stools of wellness: social, physical, and recreation (and spiritual for some). I get the three by exercising daily, seeing a ton of friend a couple days a month (without wife), and read a lot. I'm also seeing a counselor who helps me blow off steam. 

You likely can't find any comfort from your wife so I would try to stop seeking it. Still try to be pleasant, helpful and keep a good attitude in general, but no one will blame you if you're not a saint. After all, we are talking about being nice to someone who is likely continually vomiting negativity and being aggressive and nasty towards you despite your best efforts. Stop arguing with her b/c it's useless, stop trying to make her see your point of view b/c that won't happen. If she's just temporarily maxed out and pissed at you, doing these things might chill her out a little. Most likely though, this is who she is and you have to make the difficult decision of living with that for the rest of your life or seeking a different path. 

My plan is to gain clarity on my situation through counseling and continue managing myself. I'm also trying to wait until my son is a little older before destabilizing his life. I don't know...I might even end up waiting for years b/c the thought of leaving him alone with my wife is terrifying. 

Best of luck and know that you have brothers and sisters here who have or are suffering the same thing. We're here to talk things through and give support. Stay strong and remember to tell yourself often that you are a competent, strong, and valuable human being. No amount of verbal thrashing from her will change that.


----------



## 86857

There's an old saying, "people don't change". Even if they do, they can usually only do it in the short term. I think what you see is what you get. She been doing this for 20 odd years. 

I honestly can't see counselling working. Maybe, but will she be able to sustain it long term?

There's another saying which says that people treat us the way we allow them to. 
To make abusers stop & it isn't always possible, there needs to be very serious consequences put in place if they continue. 

The next time it happens, you could try telling her that she has just abused you for the last time & if/when it happens again, you will be out the door. But, you have to mean it 100% & do it when/if she does it again. I only mentioned it because you mentioned separation. As far as what family/friends might think, you can't let that stop you for goodness sake. They don't have to suffer the abuse. 

Abusers always to go for givers. Anyone else wouldn't stay with them & put up with it. Google 'codependency'. A better way of describing is it self-love deficit. You don't honour and love yourself enough. This is no way to live. It sounds absolutely awful. Life is too short for that. I'm very glad you haven't had kids yet & I certainly wouldn't even think about doing so in this situation.


----------



## philreag

I allowed my STBXW to emotionally and verbally abuse to keep my family together. I thought if I gave her control and put up with the abuse, she would never leave and family would remain intact. I was wrong.

She lost respect for me, she fell out of love with me, she quit having sex with me, she rejected me, she had emotional affairs, and finally she left me.

I am getting better daily. Four months of separation now. I do not have to deal with the abuse now. I still fear her, but only in that she may seek more custody of my son.

Interesting no one has seen this side of her except for her immediate family, her mom, dad, and brother, and now me. There were flags when I would see her disrespect for her father and brother before we got married. When she could not be reasoned with she would yell, call names, bring up the most hurtful secrets, just to hurt them emotionally.

None of her friends have seen this side of her, most would not believe it possible. The rest of her and my families have no idea what she is capable of.  I am in a small exclusive club with her immediate family. We know.

Her parents, of course, are enablers. I understand, she is their daughter, they do all they can to not alienate her by disagreeing with her. She's been estranged from them and her brother before. She still has a distant relationship with her brother. 

And now she has left me. Her parents now can put up with her again. Her brother is wary of her. I don't have to deal with her, with the exception of raising a child together.

No one will know until they get too close. Then she WILL come out.


----------



## Uptown

philreag said:


> I allowed my STBXW to emotionally and verbally abuse to keep my family together. I thought if I gave her control and put up with the abuse, she would never leave and family would remain intact. I was wrong.


So was I, Phil. My experience -- if your STBXW is a BPDer as you suspected in your 2/19 post -- is that BPDers typically walk away after 12-15 years (or 10 years in your case). One reason is that, as they see you starting to stand up for yourself over the years, their abandonment fear becomes so painful that they leave before you are able to do it to them. Another reason is that, as the years go by, a BPDer becomes increasingly resentful of your failure to make her happy -- an impossible task.



> Interesting no one has seen this side of her except for her immediate family, her mom, dad, and brother, and now me.... None of her friends have seen this side of her, most would not believe it possible.... *No one will know until they get too close*. Then she WILL come out.


Yes, that is typical in BPDer relationships. The vast majority of BPDers are high functioning. This means they tend to get along fine with casual friends, business associates, neighbors, and total strangers. As you correctly observe, the reason is that none of those folks have drawn close enough to trigger one of her two fears: abandonment and engulfment. There is no close relationship that can be abandoned and no intimacy to trigger the suffocating feeling of being engulfed and controlled.



> I don't have to deal with her, with the exception of raising a child together.


Phil, *as an initial matter*, if you still believe your STBXW has strong BPD traits, I recommend that you NOT tell her. If she is a BPDer, she almost certainly will project the accusation right back onto you, believing YOU to be the BPDer. 

*Second, *I suggest you start participating (or at least lurking) at BPDfamily.com at its_ Co-Parenting after the Split_ board.

*Third,* while you are at BPDfamily.com, I suggest you read the excellent articles in their resources section. A good place to begin is article 1 at How a Borderline Personality Disorder Love Relationship Evolves - Roger Melton, M.A..
*
Fourth,* I suggest you see a clinical psychologist -- for a visit or two by yourself -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is you and your son are dealing with. As I've explained in other threads, your best chance of getting a candid opinion regarding a possible BPD diagnosis is to NOT have the BPDer along. Therapists are loath to tell high functioning BPDers the name of the disorder -- for the protection of those clients. 

*Fifth*, if you are interested in reading a good book targeted to the abused partners and family members, I recommend the book _Stop Walking on Eggshells _and the book _I Hate You, Don't Leave Me.
_ 
*Sixth*, there are validation techniques you can use to reduce the conflict between you while co-parenting. If your STBXW has only moderate traits of BPD, those techniques may prove quite helpful. If her traits are strong, however, I doubt you would see any substantial improvement because she won't believe whatever it is you are saying. 

Some of these techniques are discussed in the two books I mentioned_._ Or you might want to look at two online resources. One is a psychiatric nurse's blog providing 20 tips to nurses on how they can best deal with obstinate BPDer patients. It is located at Borderline Personality Disorder on the Behavioral Unit - Psychiatric Nursing. The other resource is BPDfamily's list of tools for reducing the conflict with a BPDer family member. Those tools are described at Decision Making Guidelines. Sadly, my exW's BPD traits were so strong that none of these techniques made a real difference.

*Finally*, please don't forget those of us on this TAM forum. We want to keep trying to answer your questions and providing emotional support as long as you find our shared experiences helpful. Moreover, by sharing your own experiences, you likely are helping numerous other members and lurkers.


----------



## philreag

Uptown said:


> Another reason is that, as the years go by, a BPDer becomes increasingly resentful of your failure to make her happy -- an impossible task.
> 
> Yes, that is typical in BPDer relationships. The vast majority of BPDers are high functioning. This means they tend to get along fine with casual friends, business associates, neighbors, and total strangers. As you correctly observe, the reason is that none of those folks have drawn close enough to trigger one of her two fears: abandonment and engulfment. There is no close relationship that can be abandoned and no intimacy to trigger the suffocating feeling of being engulfed and controlled.
> 
> 
> Pretty spot on. Thanks for the support and reading suggestions.
> 
> I appreciate it.


----------



## Jonny Be Confused

I apologize for not responding to this thread sooner. I really appreciate all of the advice and encouragement and honest opinions given.

I think I have been in denial about the situation I am in. I am going to start a new thread about separation advice. It looks like we will get separated soon. Its kind of like trying to fix a gaping wound with band aides.


1.	Black-white thinking, wherein she categorizes everyone as "all good" or "all bad" and will recategorize someone -- in just a few seconds -- from one polar extreme to the other based on a minor comment or infraction;

*She will look down on certain people pretty easily and elevates certain people but usually doesn’t go back and forth with the same person although does over time on several occasions. She either respects you or doesn’t like you much.*


2. Frequent use of all-or-nothing expressions like "you always" and "you never;"

*Uses terms like you always do this or act that way regularly and during every argument, always an extreme. *


3.	Irrational jealousy and controlling behavior that tries to isolate you away from close friends or family members
She has always hated *my mom for what she perceived as trying to steal me away from her and took her anger out on me as a results and still does to this day. She thinks that I put my family first or I put my mom first. My mom did have some issues with me moving out such a young age and missed me but the reality is she was not like my wife perceived her and I confronted my parents every time they did something that was out of line and caused issues. I always put my wife first and stood up for her when needed. An example that she uses to hurt me to this day, about 13 years after the fact, is when we went on an out of country vacation for two weeks to visit her family, my mom made comment that if she died while we are gone we will miss the funeral. She did have some serious health issues that could have made that a possibility but it was manipulation and wrong for her to try and guilt us (The reality is she was afraid we would move to this country to pastor, still no excuse for my mom to act this way). I went to my mom and told her that was not fair to make a comment like that and please don’t do it again and she never did. But my wife accuses me like it is my fault even today and accuses me of not sticking up for her when in reality I did confront my mom and dad about the comment and made sure she didn’t do it again.

She does not like to even visit with my extended family that I am close to. She no longer tries to keep me from them after I made it clear that I will not abandon my family and never see them again because she does not want to be around them but just the act of me asking her to go with me on a family reunion trip every few year’s ends in a big fight. I never try to force her but I let her know I would really appreciate it if she spent time with me and my family together and that I miss her when she doesn’t go but it always ends up in her attacking me and insulting my family, I can honestly say that I am not aware of any issues with my other family other than with my mom, they have always been very welcoming and loving to her, my mom was also very loving and looked at her as a daughter.

I am very friendly and open with her family and have never tried to keep her from visiting or being around them. In fact we take trips to visit her family on a regular basis but she refuses to go with me to visit my extended family.

Recently what kicked off a big fight is such a stupid and silly issue. We had a family dinner planned for the new years, a new bridge opened with tolls in my area. We just took a trip over the bridge and paid the tolls. The day before we agreed to take the non-tolled road that takes longer to get there since we were driving separate so she could attend another even that she did not invite me to. The next morning I offered to take my dad so he could save on tolls and gas and had a slip of mind and suggested he arrive in time to take the toll bridge even though I intended on taking the non-toll bridge, she got irate and exploded accusing me of putting my family first and not caring about her. I tried to explain it was an honest mistake and slip of the mind but it did not help and only made it worse, about 30 seconds after hanging up and realizing he needed to be here sooner I called back and updated the time to be earlier to allow us to take the non-toll bridge. She continued to attack me because of it and brought up stuff from 12+ years ago.

At a later time she then accused me of having a weird family that is too close and I should have sex with my sister, what a disgusting and mean thing to say to your spouse. As a family with them and their kids and my dad we eat out maybe once a month and have a get together maybe 3 times a year, she will eat out most of the time but does not attend most get togethers to visit any more. Her accusations are completely off base and unreasonable.*


4. A strong sense of entitlement that prevents her from appreciating your sacrifices, resulting in a "what have you done for me lately?" attitude (e.g., not appreciating all the 3-hour trips you made to see her for two years) and a double standard ;

*This hit me hard in the last few days, I realized it all along, but I don’t know, the reality just sort of hit me. I work hard and make plans for the future and still am able to spend as much time with her as she wants. I make good money and am working on plans to allow a better standard of living now and in the future.

I can honestly say that it is so rare that she shows any appreciation or support for my work or the stress I go through every day at work that I cannot remember the last time she made any effort to show appreciation to me or say thanks, how was your day, good job etc. I compliment her all the time for her looks, effort with the household and the part time job she has, maybe I need to stop?

What hit me is I don’t think she really wants to be with me, she very rarely initiates any affection, cuddling, never says she loves me without me doing it first and just replies, or me making a comment that she never starts by saying she loves me.

She acts as if she is entitled to all the love and money in the world but does not have to provide any effort or anything from her.*


5. Flipping, on a dime, between adoring you and devaluing you -- making you feel like you're always walking on eggshells;

*She goes irate over small things and things that she brings up from the past on a regular basis, always my fault even if it is something that someone else did. Sometimes I am left stunned trying to figure out what set her off or why she is attacking me for whatever happened.

But she does not flip to an adoring side, maybe a get along well and can enjoy the evening level but never adoring or overly affectionate or complimenting.*


6. Frequently creating drama over issues so minor that neither of you can recall what the fight was about two days later;

*See pretty much all of the above comments I made.*


7. Low self esteem;

*Not that I can tell at least. She seems to be pretty confident although how she blows up with things related to my family makes me think there is some self esteem issue.*


8. Verbal abuse and anger that is easily triggered, in seconds, by a minor thing you say or do (real or imagined), resulting in temper tantrums or cold sulking that typically start in seconds and last several hours;

*This ties in with the reactions about my family above and also about other non-family related things. I constantly have to walk on eggshells worried I will say the wrong thing that will set her off. This has become slightly better the last 5 years but still a big issue.

Family is only one example she blows up for many reason, the consistent thing is blaming and accusing me and then berating me.*


9. Fear of abandonment or being alone -- evident in her expecting you to “be there” for her on demand, making unrealistic demands for the amount of time spent together, or responding with intense anger to even brief separations or slight changes in plans;

*I can see this to a point. If she blows up about something before a trip or date night or get together she will threaten to not go and stay at home ruining plans and has done so several times in the past. But she doesn’t indicate that she wants to be with me, not openly at least.*


10. Always being "The Victim," a false self image she validates by blaming you for every misfortune;

*She does this all the time. The first few years of marriage I would apologize even when it wasn’t my fault. Now I only apologize if it is my fault or partially my fault but I make it clear if she is at fault.

Any of the issues that always come up she is the victim and it is always my fault. Even in cases that I had nothing to do with what happened or when I try to explain what happened since she perceived it the wrong way or misunderstood what actually happened.*


11. Lack of impulse control, wherein she does reckless things without considering the consequences (e.g., binge eating or spending);

*We have had many financial problems in the past with extra spending. I had to completely take over managing the budget. She would always get irate when talking about money when she did the bills and I asked why we came up short. After she racked up about $40,000 in credit card debt I slowly started taking over the budget and now I think she accepts I am doing the bills although I still constantly have issues with her spending budgeted bill money, it is a nightmare to keep track.

The credit card debt came from us starting an online retail business at a site like Amazons stores. Due to the language difference she had to take care of transferring money from the Amazon site to our business account. I set up a plan to manage the cashflow to make sure the cost of inventory was replaced and then I failed to make sure it was being handled correctly and now we have about $40,000 in debt from spending money that should have been put back in the business to pay off inventory.

In addition to the $40k she spent about $50,000-$60,000 over 15 years in herbs an supplements from her families doctor in Asia that and I quote “if I don’t take these herbs I will die”. I am wondering now if she was sending money to her family behind my back although she did receive some stuff from overseas but I have no idea how much it cost. I asked her several times for a list of each item and what it cost but she never provided a list or receipt for the items, it could have actually been $10 a month for all I know.

Typing this out makes me embarrassed that I let all this happened, how in the world did it get to this point. But like with other issues when I brought up that we cannot afford $400-600 a month for garlic extract and ground up mushrooms she would get irate and accuse me of wanting her to die and not caring about her.*


12. Complaining that all her previous BFs were abusive and claiming (during your courtship) that you are the only one who has treated her well;

*Never had this happen although she does have a very negative opinion of the men in her family, accusing them of stealing money and not giving their family money to live on.*


13. Mirroring your personality and preferences so perfectly during the courtship period (e.g., enjoying everything and everyone you like) that you were convinced you had met your "soul mate;"

*Not at all for this one. Some of the issues came up while dating. I was young and ignorant and did not realize how much of a red flag they were.*


14. Relying on you to center and ground her, giving her a sense of direction because her goals otherwise keep changing every few months;

*Not that is evident by her behavior. She does have an issue with making goals and having plans for the future.*


15. Relying on you to sooth her and calm her down, when she is stressed, because she has so little ability to do self soothing;

*She has a hard time calming down when she is stressed out but does not indicate that she needs to be soothed by me unless verbal abuse is considered soothing her. She normally doesn’t want to be around anyone when stressed out.*


16. Having many casual friends but not any close long-term friends (unless they live a long distance away);

*This is very interesting. She has a few casual friends but no one that I would consider a really close friend other than her sisters and two overseas that she really doesn’t even talk to that often. She has over dramatized things with friends in the past and ruined several casual friendships accusing them of acting crazy.*


17. Taking on the personality of whatever person she is talking to, thereby acting quite differently around different types of people; and

*Don’t think this is the case too much. She does act way overly polite to people we meet casually, especially people she perceives at a higher level like a boss, pastor or elder. Also with new people we meet.	*


18. Always convinced that her intense feelings accurately reflect reality -- to the point that she regards her own feelings as self-evident facts, despite her inability to support them with any hard evidence.

*This is definitely true with her. Any argument or thing that comes up she cannot be convinced otherwise no matter how sound the reasoning or evidence that I can show. In some cases I have shown literal physical evidence of something but she continues to be angry about it fabricating a new reason.*


----------



## turnera

You are going to be SO RELIEVED once you are free of this negative, hypocritical, self-absorbed woman.

There are so many kind, giving, loving women out there, you're going to slap your forehead that you waited so long to leave.


----------



## katiecrna

My husband has told me before that I can be verbally abusive. I can have a temper every once in a while and I am working on it and become a lot better. But when I can fly off the handle and I go for the jugular. After I calm down, I know I didnt mean anything I have said but the damage was done to my husband. I didn't realize the damage I caused because this is something I observed from my mom as well, my mom would flip and say crazy mean things to my dad, then we would forget about it and go on with life and we all just understood that she didn't mean it she is just crazy. But my husband didn't have this attitude and not should he. 
Him talking to me has really changed me and made me realize that it causes so much more damage than I realize. I'm working on it and I'm so much better.
You need to work on creating boundaries with your wife. I've said some not so nice things about my mil to my husband and he would say... don't say that, and it didn't stop me. Now he literally puts his hand up and is like STOP!! Your not talking about my mom like that or else I'm walking away. He created a healthy boundary and it has made us learn how to communicate in a healthier constructive way.


----------



## jb02157

I'm dealing with the same issues that you are. I didn't want to break up a long marriage either so decided to stay married. It was a very bad decision. This issue is not going to get better because she knows that she can get away with it. I would go with your gut and divorce her unless you are like me and can't because of finances.


----------



## katiecrna

People can change but only if they know you mean business. I think you need to establish boundaries, bluntly state your position to her, and tell her you want a separation because is these issues. Then separate. That will give her the final chance to realize the damage she caused, if she can change then great, if not, then at least you gave her another chance and she will know it's her fault the marriage ended.


----------



## Uptown

Jon, welcome back! What a pleasant surprise to hear from you after a year. From my list 18 BPD Warning Signs, you've identified 12 signs as being strong and persistent. If accurate, that indicates that your W is exhibiting a strong pattern of BPD traits. Moreover, as I discuss below, your description of her behavior seems to imply that two other signs (#7 and #9) are strong as well.

Importantly, her exhibiting strong and persistent traits does not imply those traits are so severe as to satisfy 100% of the diagnostic criteria for having full-blown BPD. That determination must be made by a professional. Yet, for the purposes of deciding whether to stay married to an abusive woman, it really does not matter whether her strong traits are above or below that diagnostic threshold. Anyone satisfying only 75% or 85% of the threshold criteria (thus "not having BPD") will be nearly as difficult to live with as a person satisfying 100% (thus "having BPD").



> 7. Low self esteem -- Not that I can tell at least. She seems to be pretty confident although how she blows up with things related to my family makes me think there is some self esteem issue.


Jon, I suggest you rethink this warning sign. If your W is a BPDer -- i.e, has strong BPD traits, regardless of whether they are below or above the diagnostic threshold -- she almost certainly would have low self esteem (and self loathing) even if she is very good at hiding it. People having high self esteem don't feel a need to berate their spouses as being "stupid" -- and berate their friends as being "crazy" -- over minor disagreements.



> 9. Fear of abandonment -- I can see this to a point.


Jon, I suggest you rethink this warning sign too. If your W is a BPDer, she almost certainly has a great fear of abandonment. That likely is what is driving her hatred for your mom. As you said, your W has _"always hated my mom for what she perceived as trying to steal me away from her."_ 

Moreover, your W's severe abandonment fear also is likely the reason that _"She does not like to even visit with my extended family that I am close to." _ Similarly, my BPDer exW absolutely hated my adult foster son and rarely would go with me to visit my mother or other family members.



> Recently what kicked off a big fight is such a stupid and silly issue [about the toll bridge].... she got irate and exploded *accusing me of putting my family first and not caring about her*.


Again, this is an indication she has a great abandonment fear and very low self esteem. Otherwise, her perception of your harmless action -- i.e., telling your father to drive over the toll bridge -- would not have been so frightening to her. Make no mistake, she was frightened and threatened to be exploding into such anger and rage over something so minor.

Similarly, I oftentimes triggered my exW's abandonment fear (and her low self esteem) by harmless actions that would not have bothered a mentally healthy woman. She would go into a temper tantrum, for example, when I would mindlessly be walking a few steps ahead of her on the sidewalk -- an action she misinterpreted to mean that I was embarrassed to be seen walking beside her. And she would go into a jealous rage if she caught me looking at an attractive woman for 3/4 second instead of 1/2 second.



> An example that she uses to hurt me to this day, about 13 years after the fact, is.... my mom made comment that if she died while we are gone we will miss the funeral.... She continued to attack me because of it and brought up stuff from 12+ years ago.


If she is a BPDer, she has a fragile unstable sense of who she really is. She therefore will keep a death grip on the false self image of being "The Victim," always "The Victim." Your main role in the marriage, then, is to "validate" that false self image by enabling her to blame you for every misfortune and mistake. As long as you continue to play this role of being "The Perpetrator," she obtains the frequent validation she needs to maintain her sense of self.

Toward that end, a BPDer will keep a mental list of every mistake and infraction you ever did (real or imagined) going back to when you started dating. A BPDer will not hesitate to pull out the entire list, when arguing over the smallest issue, if she feels it is needed to reaffirm her role of being "The Victim." 

My BPDer exW, for example, was convinced in the last several years of our marriage that I was making up a new lie every week. Yet, whenever I would ask her to give me one example of something false I had said in the previous week, she was unable to do so. She nonetheless had a powerfully intense feeling that I HAD TO BE LYING about something. 

She therefore would cite -- as proof of my lying in the past week -- something I had said 5 or 10 or 15 years earlier. The further back the better because she knew that neither of us could recall anything we had said 15 years ago in much detail. 

Importantly, my exW really did believe I was lying about something every week. Similarly, if your W is a BPDer, she likely is sincerely convinced that you are wrong. A BPDer experiences such intense feelings, and is so emotionally immature, that she believes those feelings are self-evident "facts."



> I cannot remember the last time she made any effort to show appreciation to me or say thanks.


With BPDers, it is impossible to build up a store of appreciation or good will on which you can later draw during the hard times. Trying to do so is a futile as trying to build a lasting sandcastle beside the sea. It will be washed away by the next tide of intense feelings flooding her mind. 

A BPDer's perception of reality -- like that of a young child -- is whatever intense feeling she is experiencing AT THIS VERY MOMENT. She therefore is capable of being very appreciative for a few hours -- maybe even for a few days. But, after that, it's always "What have you done for me lately?" I mention this because, during your separation from her, it would be foolish to make any sacrifice or compromise thinking that it will smooth your path later on. It won't.



> What hit me is I don’t think she really wants to be with me....


The vast majority of people exhibiting strong BPD traits also exhibit strong traits of another PD as well. A 2008 study of nearly 35,000 American adults found, for example, that a third of the female full-blown BPDers also exhibit full-blown NPD (Narcissistic PD). 

Given your statement about her perhaps not wanting to be with you, I ask whether you believe she loves you now or ever loved you? Significantly, if she exhibits only strong BPD traits, she likely is capable of truly loving you, albeit in the immature way that a young child is able to love. If she were to also exhibit very strong NPD traits, she may be incapable of truly loving you or anyone else.

I raise the issues of narcissism not only because of your speculation on whether she loves you but also because of your speculation that -- in addition to the $40,000 she blew on credit cards -- she may have been lying to you about the $60,000 sent to her "doctor" (i.e., parents?) in Asia. Such prolonged manipulation and outright deceit -- if that's what it really is -- is trait of narcissism, not BPD.



> I constantly have to *walk on eggshells*....


No, you don't "have to" do that. But, if you've been married to a BPDer for many years, I can understand why you would feel that way. That is how all the abused partners of BPDers feel. This is why the #1 best-selling BPD book (targeted to those abused partners) is titled _Stop Walking on Eggshells_.



> When I brought up that we cannot afford $400-600 a month for garlic extract and ground up mushrooms she would get irate and accuse me of wanting her to die and not caring about her.


As I noted above, this huge waste of money is a narcissistic trait if, as you suspect, she's been lying for 15 years about money sent to her parents. On the other hand, it would be a BPD trait in the unlikely event she really has been paying that much for garlic/mushrooms and really does believe your objections imply that you want her to die without her "medication."



> She has a hard time calming down when she is stressed out.


The core feature of BPD is the inability to regulate one's own emotions. This occurs because a BPDer's emotional development typically is frozen at the level of a four year old.



> She has over dramatized things with friends in the past and ruined several casual friendships accusing them of acting crazy.


The vast majority of BPDers are high functioning. This means that they typically (but not always) interact very well with casual friends, business associates, clients, and total strangers. The reason is that NONE of those people are able to threaten a BPDer's two great fears: abandonment and engulfment. There is no close relationship that can be abandoned. And there is no intimacy to cause the suffocating feeling of being engulfed.

Yet, when one of those folks makes the mistake of drawing close to a BPDer, he will start triggering her two fears. The result, of course, is that the BPDer will push him away by taking great offense at some minor thing he did or said. This is why BPDers usually have no long term friends unless those people live a long distance away.



> Any argument or thing that comes up she cannot be convinced otherwise no matter how sound the reasoning or evidence that I can show.


A BPDer's anger is always there because the hurt has been carried since childhood. You therefore don't have to do a thing to CREATE the anger. Rather, you only have to say or do some minor thing that TRIGGERS the anger that's already there. This is why a BPDer's rage can be triggered in only 10 seconds.

This means that, when you want to discuss a sensitive matter, approaching your W during a calm and peaceful moment does NOT help at all. Within 10 seconds you will be dealing with the young child part of her mind, not the adult part. That is, you will be dealing with a raging child within a short period of time. Sadly, there are not many marital issues that can be resolved in 10 seconds.



> Jonny Be Confused.


Jon, if you really have been living with a BPDer for 15 years, consider yourself lucky you are only feeling "Confused." Because BPDers typically are convinced that the absurd allegations coming out of their mouths are absolutely true -- they generally have a greater "crazy-making" effect than can ever be achieved by narcissists or sociopaths. This is why that, of the 157 mental disorders listed in the APA's diagnostic manual, BPD is the _one most notorious _for making the abused partners feel like they may be losing their minds.

As to the migraines, Jon, if you intend to remain married to a woman who seems to exhibit the emotional development of a four year old, I suggest you ask your doctor to prescribe Sumatriptan. For about 80% of migraine sufferers, that drug will completely stop a headache in 20 minutes.


----------



## Jonny Be Confused

Thank you all for the replies.



Uptown said:


> Given your statement about her perhaps not wanting to be with you, I ask whether you believe she loves you now or ever loved you?


The main reason I feel that way is to me if you love someone then you wouldn't do things with the sole purpose of hurting them and you would show some affection and appreciation. I think she is capable of love although I can see some similarity with the NPD traits as well. She has had issues with her sisters and mom off and on and sometimes goes a month or more without speaking to them. We do have some peaceful times and can enjoy being around each other but it is a constant up and down battle, sometimes withing the same day. It is more hard times than good though overall, and when its hard its hard. Being a crazy maker is spot on.

This is a lot to take in right now. I knew something was off and it is shocking to see so many similarities with BPD and some NPD traits.

My first choice would be to have a happy and peaceful marriage but I can't live another 20 years of my life with this emotional up and down roller coaster, is that even possible to get where it is 90% peaceful if someone has strong BPD and some NPD traits? I have hinted in the past that she should see a psychiatrist and that went over exactly how you would probably imagine it would.

I am open to reading books but should I let her know why I am reading them or keep it to myself? What bothers me from the way I understand it she will never change unless she is willing to acknowledge a problem and get help.

I told her today that I would like to have a happy and peaceful marriage but if the choice is the rest of my life with verbal and emotional abuse or divorce then I will get divorced. She got mad and blamed me for everything for about 30 minutes and brought something up 15+ years ago, I'm not really even sure what happened since I can barely remember it.

It has been very difficult dealing with this over the years, its almost a relief to know that there could be a underlying mental issue at hand not that it excuses the behavior. It is very demoralizing and degrading to live with someone like this. 

Its interesting you bring that up about the lying. She doesn't do it all the time but sometimes when arguing about something she will accuse me of lying and I will ask her to give one single example and she can't do it. Just today I had mentioned that law in our state could force us to go through a 90 day period before finalizing a divorce and she just came home and said that I said I would force her to move out of the house during that period of time, it never ends.

Something that is really bothering me now is thinking back to something she said in our first few years of marriage. She got mad about something and blew up, I think it was the time she fractured my wrist with a stick and she left over night and I had no idea where she was for about a day or two. She came back and said that she went to a bar and went back to someones apartment and had sex with them. It made me pretty upset and after some tears and broken heart she said it wasn't true after a day or so of this, even today she says it never happened.

From what you have experienced is it common for someone with BPD to lie about something like having an affair just to hurt you or could this fall in the self destructive symptom and actually have happened? She regularly tried to make me jealous the first few years of marriage and every now and then the last several years by light flirting with men and comparing me to other men that we knew telling me they were nicer, made more money, better men than me etc. I hope this is not true, it has always bothered me since I can't imagine saying something like that to someone you love just to hurt them. If it was true that would simplify what needs to be done right now, sometimes I wish I would have immediately taken her for her word and acted accordingly instead of letting her go back on what she said.


----------



## farsidejunky

Yes. I would believe what she told you the first time.


----------



## Uptown

Jonny Be Confused said:


> From what you have experienced is it common for someone with BPD to lie about something like having an affair just to hurt you or could this fall in the self destructive symptom and actually have happened?


*Short answer: * Yes, it could have happened. Because BPDers lack impulse control, they are more likely to cheat (and do drugs, spending binges, or other risky behavior) than a healthy person. This does not imply that most are cheaters, however. On the contrary, most BPDers don't do cheating, IME. Serial cheating is an NPD behavior, not a BPD behavior.

*Long answer:* Although BPD and NPD are called "disorders," nobody has yet proven what it is that causes any of the ten PDs. It therefore is not known whether they are caused by ten separate disorders or three separate disorders. Indeed, all ten PDs may be caused by the very same disorder.

Because the underlying disorders are not yet known, the APA's diagnostic manual (DSM-5) cannot describe anything about the disorders themselves. Instead, the DSM-5 only describes the behavioral symptoms exhibited by people having the unidentified underlying disorders. 

It thus is common for a person exhibiting BPD symptoms to also exhibit strong symptoms of NPD or another PD together with one or two clinical disorders such as OCD, PTSD, bipolar, ADHD, depression, or anxiety. Hence, saying that a person exhibits both BPD and NPD is not like saying she has two diseases. Rather, it is like saying that she has an upset stomach and tiredness together with body aches and mild fever.

Although learning to spot these PD symptoms will tell you little or nothing about the underlying _cause_ of those symptoms, it still is extremely valuable to be able to spot these patterns of behavior. Once you know what set of behavioral symptoms you are dealing with, you unlock a world of information as to what type of distorted thinking gives rise to those specific patterns of behavior.

Whereas NPDers typically are very stable people, BPDers are emotionally unstable. Hence, your W's unstable behavior is a warning sign for BPD. Indeed, BPD is the only PD (of the 10 PDs) for which instability is a defining trait. Moreover, you describe a number of other BPD traits too. On the other hand, you also describe some NPD traits, as I discussed earlier.

As to your question of whether she would deliberately hurt you, she could easily do so if she were a full-blown narcissist. In that case, she would be incapable of loving you and would perceive of you as an object that is useful only as long as you continue to "validate" her false image of being the nearly perfect special person. 

In contrast, a BPDer generally does not intend to deliberately hurt her partner. A BPDer is very reactive to perceived threats to her two fears, abandonment and engulfment. So, generally, a BPDer lashes out in rages -- like a young child -- when she feels very threatened. Her main intent is to protect herself from perceived harm, not to do deliberate harm. 

That said, BPDers can be very destructive and harmful even though their intent is to defend themselves. Because they are too emotionally immature to handle strong conflicting feelings, they generally will split you white ("with them") or black ("against them"). While splitting you black, a BPDer's conscious mind is completely out of touch with the love feelings she has toward you. This is why BPDers are capable of being very vindictive and mean -- thus intending to do you deliberate harm -- whenever they have split you black and are in great pain themselves.

As to the lying, a narcissist or sociopath won't hesitate to do it if they figure they can get away with it. BPDers, on the other hand, typically lie only when you paint them into a corner and there is absolutely no other way for the BPDer to escape humiliation and shame. 

Generally, BPDers don't have to lie to defend their fragile egos. The reason is that a BPDer's subconscious works 24/7 protecting her fragile ego from seeing too much of reality. It accomplishes this by projecting all hurtful thoughts of feelings onto YOU. Because that projection occurs entirely at the subconscious level, her conscious mind is convinced that those thoughts and feelings are actually coming from you.

My experience with my BPDer exW, for example, was that she truly believed nearly all the outrageous allegations coming out of her mouth. I did catch her on some lies, however, whenever she was in a corner and was desperate to avoid the shame of being caught doing the wrong thing. Yet, if I had seriously tried to separate those very few lies from all the outrageous projections, I would have driven myself crazy.



> She came back and said that she went to a bar and went back to someones apartment and had sex with them. It made me pretty upset and after some tears and broken heart she said it wasn't true after a day or so of this, even today she says it never happened.


Like I said, if she is a BPDer, you likely would drive yourself crazy trying to separate the few lies from the multitude of false projections she believes in. In contrast, an NPDer would be far more likely to lie to you -- and to sleep well after having done so.



> I think she is capable of love although I can see some similarity with the NPD traits as well.


If she is capable of love, she may exhibit moderate to strong NPD traits but is not a full-blown narcissist.



> Just today I had mentioned that law in our state could force us to go through a 90 day period before finalizing a divorce and she just came home and said that I said I would force her to move out of the house during that period of time, it never ends.


If she is an NPDer, she likely is simply lying. If she is a BPDer, however, she likely is doing what is called "rewriting history" in her mind. As with a young child, a BPDer's perception of your intentions and recollection of what was said is largely dictated by whatever intense feeling she is experiencing at this moment in time. That is, the feeling is so intense that it distorts her perception of what was agreed to and what your motivations are.

I can't tell you how many hundreds of times my BPDer exW would agree to something -- or even beg for something -- and then disavow ever wanting it a week or two later. After she moved in with me, she told me several times about how she had loved playing the piano in high school and how it had such a calming effect on her. 

So I surprised her by buying a $3,500 piano and having it delivered and set up before she got home. She was absolutely thrilled with it for two weeks. I eventually decided to sell it online, however, because she had played the piano only five times -- for a combined total of about three hours -- in three years. When I was selling it, she told me she never asked for the piano and never really wanted it. It was all my idea, she said. And she believed that nonsense.

Similarly, she spent over $11,000 on 4 sewing machines and fabric bolts. In 15 years, she managed to produce only one vest, one dress, one blouse, and a cat collar. When she bought the 4th machine, I asked her why she had bought the 3 other machines earlier. She answered that they did not have the features she needed to do her sewing work.

When I asked why she had chosen to buy 3 machines without the proper features, she explained that it was my fault. She said she knew that I would object to her spending more money to get the right features. So, to keep peace in the family, she had sacrificed herself by buying cheaper machines that wouldn't do the job. And she really believed that nonsense.



> She has had issues with her sisters and mom off and on and sometimes goes a month or more without speaking to them.


Likewise, my BPDer exW has a falling out with one of her sisters nearly every year and they will stop speaking sometimes for 4 to 6 months. Then they're back to being best friends and thick as thieves. 

What usually happens is that one sister will tell a joke that they all have laughed to on 6 or 7 occasions -- all of them thinking it is outrageously funny. But, on the 7th or 8th telling of the joke, one or two sisters will take great offense -- feeling as though they have been insulted. So they stop speaking to each other for months. 

With BPDers, you never know what tiny thing is going to trigger the anger they have inside. Oftentimes, you don't have to say or do a thing. Rather, just being in the room with them is sufficient for you to serve as a "perpetrator" on which they can project a hurtful feeling or thought. They will be convinced it was coming from you even though you haven't moved a muscle.



> Is that even possible to get where it is 90% peaceful if someone has strong BPD and some NPD traits?


With NPD, I've never seen any convincing studies showing that therapy can make a dent in it. With BPD, most major cities in advanced countries offer excellent treatment programs (e.g., DBT and CBT) that can teach BPDers the emotional regulation skills they missed in early childhood. Yet, it is rare for a high functioning BPDer to remain in such a program long enough (several years at least) to make a real difference. I would be surprised if as much as 1% of high functioning BPDers have the self awareness and ego strength required to make a real improvement in behavior.



> I am open to reading books but should I let her know why I am reading them or keep it to myself?


Keep it to yourself. If she really does exhibit strong BPD traits, she almost certainly will project the accusation (that SHE has strong traits) right back onto you. The result is that she will be absolutely convinced that YOU are the one exhibiting strong BPD traits.

This is not to say, however, that I followed my own advice. After we separated -- not wanting to leave any rock unturned -- I slipped a copy of _Stop Walking on Eggshells_ into a box of her belongings. She found it and read it. Of course, she immediately concluded that I am the BPDer. Never mind that SHE is the one who was sexually abused by her own father for years.



> What bothers me from the way I understand it she will never change unless she is willing to acknowledge a problem and get help.


You understand correctly. The change must come from her. There are a number of emotional skills she must work hard to learn: how to self sooth, how to avoid black-white thinking, how to trust, how to regulate her own emotions, how to intellectually challenge intense feelings instead of accepting them as "facts," and how to be "mindful" (i.e., how to remain in the present instead of escaping into the past and future through daydreams). 

If she is willing -- which is highly unlikely -- she can make some progress in acquiring those skills by reading. But she won't get far on her own. Professional guidance is essential.



> It has been very difficult dealing with this over the years, its almost a relief to know that there could be a underlying mental issue at hand not that it excuses the behavior.


You are right, of course. Being able to _explain_ her dysfunctional behavior does not _excuse_ any of it. Like a spoiled young child, a BPDer should be allowed to suffer the logical consequences of her own bad choices and bad behavior. Otherwise, you are robbing her of any incentives and opportunities she might have to confront her own issues and learn how to manage them.



> It is very demoralizing and degrading to live with someone like this.


Yes, but keep in mind that the "demoralizing and degrading" is not something SHE is doing to you. Rather, it is something you BOTH are doing to each other. After all, a toxic relationship cannot be sustained for nearly 20 years without two willing participants.

Granted, her role in this toxicity -- i.e., her abuse and neglect of you -- is very easy to see. What is much harder to see is the role you have played in the toxicity. While she has been harming you for many years, you have been harming her too. 

You've been an "enabler," i.e., a person who enables her to behave like a spoiled four-year-old for many years -- and KEEP GETTING AWAY WITH IT. She's been able to do this only because you protect her from having to experience the logical consequences of her own bad behavior.


----------



## Jonny Be Confused

Uptown said:


> Yes, but keep in mind that the "demoralizing and degrading" is not something SHE is doing to you. Rather, it is something you BOTH are doing to each other. After all, a toxic relationship cannot be sustained for nearly 20 years without two willing participants.
> Granted, her role in this toxicity -- i.e., her abuse and neglect of you -- is very easy to see. What is much harder to see is the role you have played in the toxicity. While she has been harming you for many years, you have been harming her too.
> You've been an "enabler," i.e., a person who enables her to behave like a spoiled four-year-old for many years -- and KEEP GETTING AWAY WITH IT. She's been able to do this only because you protect her from having to experience the logical consequences of her own bad behavior.


Thanks for the advice, it really helps me to understand what is going on better. I am shocked at the similarities I am seeing with reading up on BPD and NPD and the experiences you are sharing.

You are correct, sadly I have enabled her and allowed her to continue acting this way and I have developed some bad habits over the years. I eventually became very defensive when the verbal abuse would start up which made the situation worse than it needed to be.
The first five years or so she really steam rolled over me as much as I hate to admit it, I had no idea what was going on and just thought it was my fault most of the time and I was doing something wrong. The middle 10 I started to put my foot down on some things like the physical abuse but I developed a bad habit of becoming defensive when the verbal abuse would start up. Every now and then she will pick something up and act like she is going to throw it at me and I have to remind her she cannot do that and I will NOT put up with it. I can see how defensive I became and have done much better in the last 5 or so years over time.

I can see that I will need to see a psychiatrist weather we get divorced or not even for my own benefit and understanding of the situation and how it has affected me over the years. I grew up in a loving family, never abused in any way, so you can imagine how much of a contrast it is living with someone verbally and emotionally abusive.

At this point do you think it would help to get separated as a way of letting her know I can’t put up with verbal abuse anymore or is that a futile effort at this point if she does not see any problem with how she acts? Would it help to say either we see a psychiatrist to help deal with these issues or I will file for a divorce? I can see now the importance of actually following through with it if I make any statements like this to her, I have made similar statements in the past but never followed through.

This morning she accused me again of saying that I said I would force her to move out for the 3 month cooling off period. I informed her that is not what I said but she continued to accuse me and blame me for saying it. Then while I was preparing breakfast for myself she came up and tried to hug me and be sweet to me, which is not normal behavior at all for her unless I initiate it first and even then it is more of a reciprocal hug or kiss etc. I let her know the situation is more serious than she realizes and stepped away. This makes me think she really doesn’t understand how I feel right now and thinks she can smooth it over. How do you convey what is going on to someone that is a perpetual victim and will have a hard time accepting that their behavior needs to change?


----------



## katiecrna

She is going to blame you, manipulate you, and be the victim even if you do the best job conveying the seriousness of her issues. That's what these people do. 

You know yourself best and your wife best. So whether or not you should go for the D right away or separate is best answered by you. 

Separation- may give her a chance to change. But it may also give her more change to lie and manipulate to try to get back in.
Divorce- is like ripping the bandaid off. It will be hard and painful but both of you can start the recovering process sooner.


----------



## turnera

You can't. You can point her to a doctor or family member. All you can do is be consistent with whatever it is you've decided and let her come to her own conclusions. If she's BPD, she won't be hearing anything from you anyway; she's in a tailspin.


----------



## Uptown

Jonny Be Confused said:


> I can see that I will need to see a psychiatrist weather we get divorced or not even for my own benefit and understanding of the situation and how it has affected me over the years.
> 
> 
> 
> Jon, given that you're seeking an "understanding," not medication, I suggest you start with a _psychologist_. That likely will cut your office charge in half because a psychologist has only a PhD in psychology. With a _psychiatrist_, the fee about doubles because you're paying for that PhD in psychology together with an MD degree.
> 
> Generally, you will want to see a psychiatrist only if you need medication for treating a mental disorder (e.g., bipolar, ADHD, or schizophrenia). Yet, if you only need something like Zoloft for two months to help you deal with temporary mild anxiety or mild depression, you likely can get a prescription for that from your general medical doctor.
> 
> My experience is that psychologists and psychiatrists are about equally good at diagnosing a mental disorder. And, because psychiatrists spend much of their time writing prescriptions and assessing the need for a medication change, psychologists usually are the ones who are more experienced at providing actual therapy. If a psychologist believes medication will help, he/she will refer you to a psychiatrist.
> 
> As to the diagnosis itself, the psychologist will be able to diagnose your issues but not those of your W. A formal diagnosis cannot be made without seeing the patient. The irony is that, if a psychologist does see your W and determine she has full-blown BPD, he likely will NOT tell her. Nor is he likely to tell you the name of her diagnosis if it is BPD or NPD. I explain the reasons for this withholding of information at Loath to Diagnose.
> 
> Hence, when BPD and NPD may be involved, your best chance of obtaining a candid professional opinion (not a formal diagnosis) on your W's issues is to see a psychologist who has not treated or even seen your W. That way, you are assured he is ethically bound to protect YOUR best interests, not hers. Although he won't be able to give you a diagnosis, he can say something like, _"It sounds to me like she may be suffering from ...." _
> 
> He can do that based on your recollection of nearly 20 years of dysfunctional behaviors. Keep in mind that a therapist seeing your W may have to see her for two or three years before he sees any of the abusive behaviors you see all week long.
> 
> Relying on your W's psychologist for a candid opinion during the marriage would be as foolish as relying on your W's attorney for advice during the divorce. Like the attorney, her psychologist is ethically bound to protect her best interests.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How do you convey what is going on to someone that is a perpetual victim and will have a hard time accepting that their behavior needs to change?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You convey it by saying it _once_ and then showing it in your actions. As you know all to well, it is pointless to try to argue or reason with a BPDer. The only thing that is likely to motivate her -- and there is very little chance of it actually working -- is to allow her to suffer the logical consequences of her own choices.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At this point do you think it would help to get separated as a way of letting her know I can’t put up with verbal abuse anymore or is that a futile effort at this point if she does not see any problem with how she acts?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If she does not have sufficient self awareness to see the problem with her own behavior, there is no way she is going to spend several years working on a problem she cannot see. Even if she does see the problem and has great self awareness, it is still unlikely she will do the hard work it takes to improve. I've not seen any figures on it but I would guess that perhaps 1/5 of the self-aware BPDers have sufficient ego strength to stay in therapy long enough to make a difference.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Would it help to say either we see a psychiatrist to help deal with these issues or I will file for a divorce?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No, that's the mistake I made. To preserve the marriage, my BPDer exW readily agreed to weekly therapy and proceeded to play mind games with the therapists. Over 15 years, she was "treated" by six of them and 3 MCs. Of course, it cost me a small fortune and did not make a dent in her BPD traits. Not one dent.
> 
> As I said earlier, therapy only works if she has a strong desire to do it on her own without being forced into it. Even then, there is absolutely no guarantee that she will do the work necessary to improve. Moreover, how would you really KNOW when she has made a _lasting_ substantial improvement?
> 
> Like the many smokers who are always quitting and throwing away their "last pack" periodically, a BPDer typically will be seen making great improvements every two months or so. So how can you possibly know you are seeing a lasting improvement in a woman who is greatly improving half the time? Remember, even a roller coaster moves upward half the time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I informed her that is not what I said but she continued to accuse me and blame me for saying it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Why are you discussing this with her again? As you know, even in the unlikely event she would agree with you, that agreement almost certainly would be ignored or forgotten in a few days. If she is a BPDer, you are dealing with an intelligent, highly educated woman having the emotional development of a four year old. Hence, as with a young child, you explain the situation and your personal boundary once. No arguments. Then you start enforcing that boundary as soon as it is violated.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then while I was preparing breakfast for myself she came up and tried to hug me and be sweet to me, which is not normal behavior at all for her....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Like I said earlier, she almost certainly has a great fear of abandonment if she is a BPDer. This means that, once she sees you establishing personal boundaries and enforcing them, you are going to scare the ****ens out of her.
> 
> Once she realizes that the love bombing and manipulation no longer work, you likely will start seeing a rage and vindictiveness that you never even imagined she was capable of (even when she was trying to stab you). My BPDer exW, for example, was so convinced I was going to leave her when I started enforcing boundaries that she became frantic and furious.
> 
> She chased me around our home from room to room. When I pushed her away from a bedroom door she was trying to destroy, she tripped when stepping backward and fell down. That's all it took for her to call the police and have me arrested for "brutalizing" her.
> 
> When I got out of jail 3 days later, I learned that she had obtained a R/O barring me from returning to my own home. So I had to rent an apartment for 18 months until the divorce was finalized. For a BPDer, having her partner arrested is the height of success in establishing her own self identity.
> 
> It is the equivalent of being given a Harvard Ph.D. in Victimhood. She may even want to hang your arrest record on her wall. I therefore suggest you start preparing by reading the book, _Splitting: Protecting Yourself while Divorcing a Borderline or Narcissist._
Click to expand...


----------



## DepressedHusband

Sounds like a Narcissistic Sociopath, and there are far more female ones then you would care to believe.


----------



## Jonny Be Confused

Uptown said:


> Jon, given that you're seeking an "understanding," not medication, I suggest you start with a _psychologist_. That likely will cut your office charge in half because a psychologist has only a PhD in psychology. With a _psychiatrist_, the fee about doubles because you're paying for that PhD in psychology together with an MD degree.


Very interesting I didn’t know the difference between the two terms.




Uptown said:


> Hence, when BPD and NPD may be involved, your best chance of obtaining a candid professional opinion (not a formal diagnosis) on your W's issues is to see a psychologist who has not treated or even seen your W. That way, you are assured he is ethically bound to protect YOUR best interests, not hers. Although he won't be able to give you a diagnosis, he can say something like, _"It sounds to me like she may be suffering from ...." _


So the main benefit in reference to dealing with my wife’s issues is they could help me understand how severe or serious it might be in order to determine what the best long term decision is.




Uptown said:


> You convey it by saying it _once_ and then showing it in your actions. As you know all to well, it is pointless to try to argue or reason with a BPDer. The only thing that is likely to motivate her -- and there is very little chance of it actually working -- is to allow her to suffer the logical consequences of her own choices.


When you say suffer the logical consequences of her own choices how would I go about doing that? Or are you saying do it by ending it permanently since she won’t change or continue to deal with the same problems as long as you are together?




Uptown said:


> If she does not have sufficient self awareness to see the problem with her own behavior, there is no way she is going to spend several years working on a problem she cannot see. Even if she does see the problem and has great self awareness, it is still unlikely she will do the hard work it takes to improve. I've not seen any figures on it but I would guess that perhaps 1/5 of the self-aware BPDers have sufficient ego strength to stay in therapy long enough to make a difference.


It’s really sad but it doesn’t sound like there is much hope a BPD’er overcoming the tendencies they have. If we were to stay together is the only option with me learning how to ignore or deal with it when issues come up? 



Uptown said:


> Why are you discussing this with her again? As you know, even in the unlikely event she would agree with you, that agreement almost certainly would be ignored or forgotten in a few days. If she is a BPDer, you are dealing with an intelligent, highly educated woman having the emotional development of a four year old. Hence, as with a young child, you explain the situation and your personal boundary once. No arguments. Then you start enforcing that boundary as soon as it is violated.


It was a much shorter conversation than usual, after I made that comment I didn’t say much more and left the room. Something I need to really work on and figure out how to do it to set the boundary and then enforce it.




Uptown said:


> Like I said earlier, she almost certainly has a great fear of abandonment if she is a BPDer. This means that, once she sees you establishing personal boundaries and enforcing them, you are going to scare the ****ens out of her.
> Once she realizes that the love bombing and manipulation no longer work, you likely will start seeing a rage and vindictiveness that you never even imagined she was capable of (even when she was trying to stab you).


I’ve seen this happen on a smaller scale, something happens and she blows up, rips in to me, I don’t apologize or make up for several days, she starts to try to act like nothing happen, I don’t bite then she rips into me again. I can imagine it is much worse when you get to the point that they realize you ARE getting divorced.



Uptown said:


> She chased me around our home from room to room. When I pushed her away from a bedroom door she was trying to destroy, she tripped when stepping backward and fell down. That's all it took for her to call the police and have me arrested for "brutalizing" her.


Its crazy. My wife has threatened to call the police before when I got so fed up I yelled at her, not even in a threatening way just ignorantly responding to something she said to hurt me.



Uptown said:


> I therefore suggest you start preparing by reading the book, _Splitting: Protecting Yourself while Divorcing a Borderline or Narcissist._


That’s good to know, thanks.




Here is the really crazy part about all of this. I feel sorry for her. 

She has never worked full time, not that she isn’t capable of it but I think she may be a hypochondriac also and she did recover from thyroid cancer about 9 years ago but nothing that would keep her from working but she always says she doesn’t have energy and isn’t healthy and can't work etc. (for 20 years not just after recovering from cancer), I think she got this from her mother who always claimed to be sick and would never work and then held it against her husband for not having enough money, she also coddled her kids that way and only one of them works full time on a regular basis. She finally started working 15 hours a week recently to try to help out with the debt but if this happens she will not have a choice but to work full time at low wages to be able to provide money to live on… and I feel sorry for her, a metric ton of reality is going to come crashing down on her head when she realizes we are going separate ways (I realize this is the wrong way to look at it and I would never tell her that I feel that way). Not that it would prevent me from getting a divorce but this is difficult because I do love her and it hurts me to think of her feeling abandoned and being in this situation, it breaks my heart.

This probably has something to do with why it is difficult to think of going through with a divorce. She is the first and only woman I have ever been with, dated, kissed romantically, had sex with…


----------



## Uptown

Jonny Be Confused said:


> So the main benefit in reference to dealing with my wife’s issues is they could help me understand how severe or serious it might be in order to determine what the best long term decision is.


Yes. But keep in mind the limitations imposed on psychologists. They cannot do a true diagnosis of any PD -- not in the sense that term is used in every medical field and throughout the rest of society. That is, psychologists cannot tell you the underlying CAUSE of the PD. 

Instead, they are only able to tell you whether the behavioral symptoms are sufficiently severe and persistent as to IMPLY that some (unproven) disorder exists. For the purpose of deciding whether to remain married to someone, finding out that a professional considers her traits to be at 80% of the diagnostic threshold (thus "not having BPD") or at 100% (thus "having BPD") is pretty useless. A person at 80% will be nearly as painful to live with as one at 100%.

I mention this so you understand that, because BPD and NPD traits are only behavioral symptoms, you already are the world's expert on your W's behavioral symptoms. You've been observing them for nearly 20 years. Whereas the professionals are experts on true diagnosis, laymen are the experts on recognizing symptoms. By definition, symptoms are something that laymen can spot on their own. 

This is why, when the layman cannot spot the effects of a disorder, it is said to be "asymptomatic," i.e., having no symptoms. Hence, when you go to a medical doctor, the first thing he will ask you is what symptoms you are seeing, how severe they are, and how long you've been seeing those symptoms. 



> When you say suffer the logical consequences of her own choices how would I go about doing that?


A year ago, @*Turnera* gave you specific examples of how to do this in post #26 above. She wrote, _"If you raise your voice at me, I will leave the room for 20 minutes; we'll try to discuss this later when we can do it without raising voices. And then LEAVE THE ROOM. If she tries to pick up where she left off when you return, turn right back around and leave for an hour. If she does it again, leave the house and go for a walk or a drive. If she does it again, go stay somewhere else for the night. If she does it again the next day, go stay somewhere else for TWO nights. Then three. Then four."_



> Or are you saying do it by ending it permanently since she won’t change or continue to deal with the same problems as long as you are together?


That is a decision you have to make on your own. When I was confronted with the same predicament after 15 years of abuse, I decided to divorce my exW -- a woman who had been my first love and whom I had known for several decades. If your W does exhibit strong and persistent BPD traits, I would be surprised if there is more than a 1% chance she will substantially improve even if you do force her to see a psychologist.

A few recent published studies seem to contradict my conclusion. They find that, as BPDers age beyond the late 40's, a substantial portion of them no longer have the disorder. Yet, this finding of "improvement" is not what it seems. It does not mean that the BPDers are cured of anything. 

Rather, it is simply an artifact of the absurd "diagnosis" procedure that psychologists have been using since 1980 -- wherein a person satisfying 80% or 90% of the diagnostic criteria is said to "not have the disorder." As I noted above, a person exhibiting strong PD traits will be very difficult to live with regardless of whether they are slightly above or below that diagnostic threshold. 

This binary approach to "diagnosis" for a spectrum disorder is as ridiculous as declaring everyone above 6' 6" to be "tall" and everyone below that height to be "short." This is why the American psychiatric is in the process of revising its diagnostic manual to replace this outdated binary approach with a graduated (i.e., dimensional) approach.

If my experience is any guide, your W's behavior may well get much worse. What I found was that, as the years go by, a BPDer's fear of abandonment grows as she sees her body aging. And her resentment grows as she sees, year after year, that you continue to fail at making her happy -- an impossible task.



> It’s really sad but it doesn’t sound like there is much hope a BPD’er overcoming the tendencies they have. If we were to stay together is the only option with me learning how to ignore or deal with it when issues come up?


Yes, that was my experience. If your W exhibits only mild to moderate BPD traits, you can substantially improve your R/S by learning validation techniques. Yet, if she exhibits strong traits, my experience is that all the validation in the world won't make a significant difference.



> Its crazy. My wife has threatened to call the police before when I got so fed up I yelled at her, not even in a threatening way just ignorantly responding to something she said to hurt me.


Like I said, getting you arrested will make her feel like she's walking onto stage at a university graduation ceremony. It's like being handed a Harvard PhD in victimhood. The ultimate "validation" of her false self image of being "The Victim."



> Here is the really crazy part about all of this. I feel sorry for her.


That's how nearly all of the abused partners feel. It feels like you're walking away from a sick, young child who desperately needs you. This is why the abused partners typically go through numerous breakups over a period of years before they are able to break free of the toxic relationship.



> I do love her and it hurts me to think of her feeling abandoned and being in this situation, it breaks my heart.


Likewise, I still love my BPDer exW. It took me 15 years to finally understand that, when a person is unable to trust, she can turn on you at any time -- and she certainly will do so many times. This means, of course, you can never really trust her. Absent trust, there is no foundation on which to build a lasting adult relationship.


----------



## Jonny Be Confused

Uptown said:


> _"If you raise your voice at me, I will leave the room for 20 minutes; we'll try to discuss this later when we can do it without raising voices. And then LEAVE THE ROOM. If she tries to pick up where she left off when you return, turn right back around and leave for an hour. If she does it again, leave the house and go for a walk or a drive. If she does it again, go stay somewhere else for the night. If she does it again the next day, go stay somewhere else for TWO nights. Then three. Then four."_


That is something I will have to try and do and work on. I usually like to resolve issues when they come up, which never works with my wife, so maybe this approach will help if I don’t leave soon.




Uptown said:


> If my experience is any guide, your W's behavior may well get much worse. What I found was that, as the years go by, a BPDer's fear of abandonment grows as she sees her body aging. And her resentment grows as she sees, year after year, that you continue to fail at making her happy -- an impossible task.


I’m sure I am stretching here but in some ways she is slightly better than the first 5 years of marriage in frequency and intensity, much less physical violence, BUT the big blow ups still happen regularly and verbal abuse and blame every time an occurrence comes up. Is it unrealistic to think she may not have the most severe symptoms based on seeing even a small improvement after the first 5 years? Or if they were not as severe would she have progressed much more by now?

On the down side, ultimatums helped to reduce certain things like the violence but hasn't helped much with the verbal abuse. My problem up to this point is not following through.




Uptown said:


> Likewise, I still love my BPDer exW. It took me 15 years to finally understand that, when a person is unable to trust, she can turn on you at any time -- and she certainly will do so many times. This means, of course, you can never really trust her. Absent trust, there is no foundation on which to build a lasting adult relationship.


This is definitely a problem. The accusations and blame shock me on a regular basis that she would accuse me of such and such.


I am planning on reading the book you suggested about how to prepare for a divorce with someone with BPD.

I am still seriously thinking about getting separated before divorcing even just to give myself some peace and really think about the situation. 

I’m so tired emotionally, the constant ups and downs are very difficult to deal with and I feel like something must change one way or the other. A few days ago I was a monster and everything was all my fault and now she is nice the last day or two which usually only happens immediately after a blow up and make up, then the cycle of neglect and blow ups continue... As much as it hurts to think about leaving her the thought of a more static peaceful life style seems like a dream.


----------



## Uptown

Jonny Be Confused said:


> Is it unrealistic to think she may not have the most severe symptoms based on seeing even a small improvement after the first 5 years? Or if they were not as severe would she have progressed much more by now?


Jon, I don't know what will happen in your specific case. The two recent studies I mentioned suggest that, for full-blown BPDers, there is at least a 50% chance a BPDer will mellow a little -- i.e., will drop below the diagnostic threshold and thus no longer "have BPD." As I discussed, however, that vague finding offers little comfort to anyone married to a BPDer because the studies provide no information on whether "dropping below the 100% threshold" means they dropped on average to 70% or, rather, to 95%. 

Anecdotally, nearly all the reports from TAM members living a long time with BPDers report that behavior did not improve. But, granted, that proves nothing because, if things had improved, they likely would not have shown up here on TAM talking about it. My personal experience, as you know, was that things got so bad my exW had me thrown in jail.

Yet, regardless of whether your W mellows a bit, what you can expect is that -- when you stop walking on eggshells and start establishing strong personal boundaries -- she will interpret it as a sure sign you are planning on divorcing her. Initially, she may do the love bombing and caring behavior you've seen in the past. 

As you remain steadfast with the boundaries, however, she likely will eventually be so frightened by it -- and so resentful that you are not validating her self image of being "The Victim" -- she will start lashing out with rage and fury. That, at least, is what my exW did when I started standing up for myself.



> I am planning on reading the book you suggested.


You may also benefit from reading some online articles written by professionals. I recommend two BPDfamily articles: Surviving a Breakup with Someone Suffering with BPD and Leaving a Partner with BPD. I also recommend Divorcing a Narcissist. These three articles describe what it's like to leave high-conflict spouses and give some tips that may be useful.


----------



## Jonny Be Confused

Uptown said:


> Yet, regardless of whether your W mellows a bit, what you can expect is that -- when you stop walking on eggshells…..
> 
> You may also benefit from reading some online articles written by professionals. I recommend two BPDfamily articles: Surviving a Breakup with Someone Suffering with BPD and Leaving a Partner with BPD. I also recommend Divorcing a Narcissist. These three articles describe what it's like to leave high-conflict spouses and give some tips that may be useful.


Thank you I will read those articles also. As far as leaning how to set boundaries and how to enforce them are the books Stop Walking on Eggshells and I Hate You, Don't Leave Me the best place to start?

You mentioned this in a earlier post.


Uptown said:


> Moreover, your W's severe abandonment fear also is likely the reason that "She does not like to even visit with my extended family that I am close to." Similarly, my BPDer exW absolutely hated my adult foster son and rarely would go with me to visit my mother or other family members.


I think I already know the answer to this but is there any hope of this situation (visiting family out of state) getting better with learning more about how to interact with someone with BDP? If we were to stay together then maybe the best bet is more of a live separate lives approach about certain things since she no longer tried to keep me from visiting, usually.


Before making any permanent decisions I am reading the two books and asking my primary doctor for psychologist recommendations to talk to alone just with me and explain what is going on and see what I can learn about myself and my wife the last 20 years and see what they say or what approach they recommend.

The one thing I know for sure is something has to change.


----------



## ScrambledEggs

Jonny Be Confused said:


> There doesn't seem to be a lot of threads on verbally abusive wife's and not a lot of info online.
> 
> This was interesting and discouraging to read
> Your Verbally Abusive Wife, What Can You Do? - HealthyPlace
> 
> I have not been on the forum long but have read some good stuff, especially about the fitness testing.
> 
> So I am curious what you all have to say about dealing with a verbally abusive wife.
> 
> In my situation about half the time my wife is very cold natured and abrupt, abrasive about things. If we are talking about something that we need to decide on and she wants to do one thing and I want to do another I can try to explain why it is a good idea to do one thing and about 75% of the time she will start to get very cold and abrasive pushing what she wants to do and won't give me a chance to even explain my perspective. I think this is a manipulation tactic and I find it very irritating.


When logic and collaboration are denied, emotion and force will always win. Whatever she wants, she gets. Sounds like she has you trained pretty well to accept that she is in charge.

I have read that, despite modern egalitarian notions of marriage, equal power in a marriage rarely seems to work according to some studies--one spouse or the other has to take more of a lead role. But that leadership comes with the responsibility of being benevolent. If that power is just a selfish tool to get what they want, it is a problem that will always make you unhappy. You will have to suck up for your whole life, or do something about it and I have to tell you there are no easy ways to shift the balance of power in a relationship.


----------



## As'laDain

Posting this so I can find it later...


----------



## Uptown

Jonny Be Confused said:


> As far as leaning how to set boundaries and how to enforce them are the books Stop Walking on Eggshells and I Hate You, Don't Leave Me the best place to start?


The _Eggshells_ and _Hate You_ books offer advice on establishing boundaries but a lot of the focus is on explaining BPD behavior, much of which you already are able to spot. You therefore might get more benefit from _Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist_ by Margalis Fjelstad. I suggest going to BigRiver and reading the customer reviews to see if that would be more helpful.

As you already realize, your contribution to the marriage toxicity is your overly strong desire to be needed (for what you can do) -- which far exceeds your desire to be loved for the man you already are. This problem is well covered in the well-known book, _Codependent No More_ by Melody Beattie. Like Fjelstad, Beattie does a good job discussing how to build strong boundaries and thus you may want to consider reading her book. 

I tend to favor Fjelstad because -- unlike Beattie -- she doesn't make the unsupported claim that we excessive caregivers all want to _control_ our partners. My experience is that most excessive caregivers just want to be needed and to have a beneficial impact on their partners' lives without wanting to control them and without wanting to keep them dependent.



> Is there any hope of this situation (visiting family out of state) getting better with learning more about how to interact with someone with BDP?


Because anything is possible, there is always some hope the situation might improve. Yet, counting on possibilities and "might be's" is a very low standard on which to base your decisions. I say this because, if your W exhibits strong and persistent BPD traits, she likely has the emotional development of a four year old. 

If so, you've been in a parent/child relationship -- not a husband/wife relationship -- for nearly 20 years. I therefore believe you are very wise to be seeking -- from a psychologist recommended by your doctor -- a candid professional opinion on what it is you're dealing with.


----------



## As'laDain

Sounds a lot like me and my wife...

Several years ago, that was us. I'll let her describe how I responded to her when things started changing for the better.

If you are dealing with a low emotional maturity, you will have to make your spouse feel safe before she will work with you and cooperate. Things that will make her feel safe may not look like you think it should. You CAN enforce boundaries while providing her with the safety and security to open up. 

But you will have to enforce boundaries from a position of compassion. Which means they must be rock solid.

Anyway, @Akinaura , care to chime in?


----------



## Akinaura

Boundaries are going to be your friend, so don't make idle ones or ones you can't enforce.

For example, I have quite the acidic tongue. I can be brutal, as my husband can attest. What he chose to do was enforce a simple rules "no assuming what I'm feeling or thinking"...over the years it's been shortened to "no one is a mind reader", lol. If I assumed what he was thinking or feeling I got one warning of "you assumed, do it again, I'm leaving the room for x minutes, after the time is up, I will be back." At first, I was terrified he was gonna leave the room and not come back, so of course I got even worse. But after a few weeks of the same behavior, I began to feel safe...I can began to rely on my knowledge he had come back every time before so him walking away wasn't that night of an issue. That turned into better monitoring what I said so I could talk about what was going on instead of driving him away.

Another boundary he enforced was something you've experienced, which is the "flip-flop" as I call it. I did many of the same behaviors as your wife. What my husband did was to enforce a personal space around himself that I wasn't to encroach on. Again, it made me upset he would "seal" himself off like that, but what he was doing was teaching me self-soothing and it made so that after a fight, we both could approach each other relaxed instead of on edge. It was also my husband's way of ensuring the conflict was over and I wasn't blaming him for behavior that was my decision and not his. He wanted me to recognize myself which behavior was out of line, so the next time I could do better at controlling myself.

Basically it comes down to small consequences that are easily repeated, that show "you can only go so far" and not the nuke option of "I'm leaving and you'll never see me again". Remember you are dealing with a severe fear, borderline phobia of abandonment. Giving something the bpder can grasp on to, something that they can quantify, will make things easier. But also remember you're gonna have some more intense blowups on the road to the bpder learning they are safe.

Oh, and lastly, carry a VAR. A lot of times, when a bpder is at full meltdown, it's hard for them to remember what they have said, this is a way for you to remind her if she swears up and down she never said something. Also, it will help if she decides to be stupid and do something vindictive.


----------



## As'laDain

Just about anyone here would have told me to divorce akinaura early on in our marriage. I am certain I would have heard the same line about them not changing. 

Truth is, people typically only change as a response to a change in their environment. Jonny, YOU are a part of your wife's environment. There is a lot of things you can do. 

9ne of the first things I would do, if I were you, is get a VAR and record her verbal abuse. Pull it out and tell her is is there so that you can have an accurate record of who said what. Because you can't always remember or something. 

This will do two things. One, it will catch her verbal abuse on record, so that if she tries to spin things around on you or twist your words, YOU will know what was actually said. And how it was said. More importantly, anyone you show it to will see the truth. This is important if you decide to do marriage counseling. 

In our case, I recorded aki several times. I told her that if we cannot work things out between us and be satisfied with our solutions to our own problems, then I would be bringing those recordings to a marriage counselor so that they have an accurate picture of what they are dealing with. 

Aki was not proud of those outbursts, she hated it. But she didn't know how to self sooth or regulate her emotions. So, if she was going to talk to me, she had to either accept that other people would see HOW she talked to me, or she would have to change the way she talked to me. 

Because of her past exoeriences, she was constantly on guard for the day that I would abandon her. Everyone else in her life had done so, and she could not logically find a reason for me to do any different, especially since I started to see the "real" her. She hates herself for her inability to be "normal". 

The VAR was there, in part, to give her a reason to make a habit of calming herself down. At first, she would often refuse to talk to me, but she couldn't keep that up for long when she saw me slipping away. Like your wife, she tried to just act like nothing was wrong. She would try to approach me and I would push her back and tell her that I would not "reconcile" until she was willing to hear what I had to say and we come to an agreement that allows me to let it go. At first, that was usually just her acknowledging that she did something wrong. Admitting that she did something "bad" was very difficult for her. 

After she made whatever effort I needed in order to let the conflict go, I went right back to the kind of love bombing that she did. I let her know that if she did something "bad" I would put the two of us through this process again, amd so long as she cooperated, we could go back to being "good". 

This took a lot of the fear of abandonment away. When she KNEW she could always find a way to "make it right", she triggered a lot less. If she did something particularly nasty, I required something that was more difficult from her. So long as she did it, I was willing to drop it. 

That will not work until she believes that it is possible for you to move past it and let it go. Until you reach that point, small consequences work better. Apply them, and then let it go. If she asks if you are "good now" tell her that you aren't, not entirely, but that you are not going to leave her over it. 

That opens the doors from one sided consequences to two sided conflict resolution. Anyway, more on this later. I need to get to work.


----------



## Jonny Be Confused

The last few days she stopped attempting to love bomb me and has been reclusive and silent, although while I have been polite I have not gone out of my way to talk to her either while I am working through this stuff. So this morning she told me she feels sick and she has cancer again and will die, and this time she is not going to have treatment and will die sooner like a friend of ours did a few years ago and I will be happier etc. I left after a short volley of these comments. 

I told her if she thinks she has cancer again then she needs to see doctor and I can’t control what she chooses to do in reference to therapy if she did have cancer.

Obviously she doesn’t have cancer and if she did she would have no clue without proper tests being done. Is this a sign of BPD abandonment fear or is it more like NPD manipulation, or both? I c an see how it would be hard to diagnose these disorders accurately.

I recently read this list of traits about NPD and I am shocked at how familiar these 8 points are. I see strong similarities in all of them in what I have witnessed over the years. If this is accurate then it makes me rethink how strong the NPD traits are in her. Even the terms at the bottoms are very familiar, I can see similarities in almost all of them.

https://freefromtoxic.com/2015/06/16/the-8-most-common-narc-sadistic-conversation-control-tactics/

This is really bothering me now, I can see a strong lack of empathy in a lot of cases but is it possible for someone with strong NPD traits to love or do they put on a show of the ability to love? Is it possible for them to have some love for certain things but then no love or empathy for other things? On one side I can’t imagine telling someone you are supposed to love the things she has said to me so it makes me feel like she does not love me. Or does it go back to it being a spectrum disorder and someone may have strong NPD traits but not be 100% full blow 0 empathy 0 love NPD?




Uptown said:


> You therefore might get more benefit from _Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist_ by Margalis Fjelstad. I suggest going to BigRiver and reading the customer reviews to see if that would be more helpful.
> 
> As you already realize, your contribution to the marriage toxicity is your overly strong desire to be needed (for what you can do) -- which far exceeds your desire to be loved for the man you already are. This problem is well covered in the well-known book, _Codependent No More_ by Melody Beattie.


Thanks I will check these out also.



Uptown said:


> I tend to favor Fjelstad because -- unlike Beattie -- she doesn't make the unsupported claim that we excessive caregivers all want to _control_ our partners. My experience is that most excessive caregivers just want to be needed and to have a beneficial impact on their partners' lives without wanting to control them and without wanting to keep them dependent.


Good point and I agree with how you feel about it also. Is the idea that someone that is an excessive caregiver is going to be more likely to stay with a BPD/NPD longer?

Another element to staying married almost 20 years is a deep ingrained cultural “honor” and religious obligation on my part. But the more I learn I don’t believe that anyone must put up with any type of abuse long term without it being fixed and the behavior stopping. The sad thing is with these types of strong symptoms fixing it probably won’t be an option.





Akinaura said:


> Another boundary he enforced was something you've experienced, which is the "flip-flop" as I call it. I did many of the same behaviors as your wife. *What my husband did was to enforce a personal space around himself that I wasn't to encroach on*. Again, it made me upset he would "seal" himself off like that, but what he was doing was teaching me self-soothing and it made so that after a fight, we both could approach each other relaxed instead of on edge. It was also my husband's way of ensuring the conflict was over and I wasn't blaming him for behavior that was my decision and not his. He wanted me to recognize myself which behavior was out of line, so the next time I could do better at controlling myself.


Thank you both for sharing your experiences of how you have handled this in your marriage.

When you say this (bold above) would this fall under something like an issue or insult that is brought up like a personal insult, you don’t allow them to insult you like that and leave the room/conversation?

I like the idea, I think it will be extremely difficult to get anywhere with my wife from my experience but definitely worth working on if there is a chance it will help.

That’s a great idea about using a voice recorder. I have thought many times I wish I would have recorded certain conversations.

Good tips on conflict resolution. I think one key factor is if both are willing to see what they are doing wrong and then takes steps to fix it. Up to this point she has made no indications at all that anything she has done is wrong and immediately blames me for current issues and brings up issues from 15+ years ago as if it happened yesterday. Maybe this will change if I start to learn how to set and enforce boundaries better and watch how I communicate when issues come up.


----------



## turnera

IMO, her whole life is spent searching for ways to get attention and keep people, one after another. It's never about the other person. If something she's doing isn't giving her the attention she needs, the high, she'll seek out something else. Thus the cancer diagnosis. I've watched my friend go through this; it's totally predictable. And sad.


----------



## Uptown

As'laDain said:


> Sounds a lot like me and my wife.


Not to me, Asla. Jon is describing a toxic marriage that sounds much different from that described by you and your W, Akinaura. I will mention three differences that seem particularly striking.

*One difference* is that, whereas Jon is describing a W who is very controlling (to prevent him from being too close or too far away), you are describing a W (Akinaura) who loves for you to take control. That is why she likes the Dominant/Submissive (D/S) lifestyle you both describe in your thread, *I am My Wife's Dom*. You say the D/S role playing extends beyond your sex life into your entire lifestyle together. 

As Akinaura explains in that thread (post 17), _"I needed him to take control in the exact same way! I hated feeling like I needed to control everything. So I sat him down and explained why I needed the D/S lifestyle." _Jon, however, is not describing a W who needs the D/S lifestyle. Rather, he is describing a W who has a great fear of control and engulfment. 

*A second difference* is that, whereas Jon says his W exhibits most of the BPD warning signs, you say your W does not. Specifically, you say _"My wife has her own issues, but nothing as irritating as BPD"_ (4/5/14 post). Your W agrees. She says (11/30/14) that her behavioral issues are not due to BPD but, rather, _"due to depression and fibromyalgia._" She also says (9/11/14) that she was _"diagnosed with GAD w/ Agoraphobia."_ 
*
A third difference* is that the baggage you brought into the marriage sounds much heavier than what Jon had to carry. Whereas Jon says he had loving and supportive parents, you describe a childhood that was so horrible it is a wonder you managed to survive. Your mother threw knives at you, tried to stab you, and broke a wooden chair over your back. You would survive oftentimes by sleeping on the ground in the woods to be safe from the chance of her going on a midnight rampage. You say (11/22/16) that your mother was diagnosed as having Dissociative Identity Disorder (aka, Multiple Personality Disorder). 

The result of that childhood abuse is that you've been _"told by many, who know what they are talking about, that I have strong indicators that I am, or at least was, a sociopath" _(8/9/16 post). You also say (11/17/16) that 12 years ago _"I did have a psychologist tell me I was a sociopath." _Another result of the abuse is that you did not learn how to love anyone until you were being pronounced dead. You say, _"It wasn't until I heard my own time of death being announced that I realized that I can really love someone, out of choice_" (8/9/16 post).


----------



## Uptown

Jonny Be Confused said:


> Is [her false claim of having cancer] a sign of BPD abandonment fear or is it more like NPD manipulation, or both?


I don't know, Jon. Although you can spot the overall patterns of behavior, you likely will never know for certain whether or not she actually believes some false claims. That ambiguity between lies and projections will be especially strong if she exhibits strong traits of both BPD and NPD. As I said earlier, you likely would drive yourself crazy trying to separate the few lies (narcissistic trait) from the multitude of false projections she believes in (BPD trait).



> This is really bothering me now, I can see a strong lack of empathy in a lot of cases.


There are two types of empathy. One is _affective_ empathy, which is our automatic drive to respond appropriately to another person’s emotions. This kind of empathy happens automatically, and often unconsciously. It occurs only if we are able to feel how the other person is feeling. Whereas narcissists generally lack affective empathy at all times, BPDers typically lack it only when very angry or when splitting a person black. Otherwise, it is common for a BPDer to have a very high level of affective empathy. 

The other is _cognitive_ empathy, which is the largely conscious drive to recognize accurately and understand another’s emotional state. It is common for narcissists to have a high level of cognitive empathy at all times because it is a skill they can learn that makes it much easier to manipulate other people. As with affective empathy, BPDers typically do well with it when splitting someone white but badly when splitting that person black.



> Is it possible for someone with strong NPD traits to love or do they put on a show of the ability to love?


By definition, a full-blown narcissist is "Unwilling to empathize with others' feelings, wishes, or needs" and "Needing constant admiration from others." Such a person thus is unable to love. Yet, if a person has strong NPD traits that do not fully satisfy the diagnostic threshold, she may be able to love to some degree -- albeit in the immature way a child (or BPDer) is able to love.



> Does it go back to it being a spectrum disorder and someone may have strong NPD traits but not be 100% full-blown 0 empathy 0 love NPD?


Yes, that is my understanding. Moreover, keep in mind that everyone gets in temporary moods/circumstances where their ability to love or have affective empathy gets very low. What distinguishes a full-blown narcissist, then, is that this condition is _persistent_ for many years -- most likely for a lifetime. It is not the temporary hostility/grumpiness you will see in normal folks when they are laid low by a hormone surge, drug abuse, fatigue, or illness.



> I can’t imagine telling someone you are supposed to love the things she has said to me so it makes me feel like she does not love me.


Sure you can. Simply recall some of the hateful things that came out of your mouth when you were an angry teenager rebelling against your own parents or a sibling. Had the love vanished? No. But your conscious mind was completely out of touch with it during those moments.



> Is the idea that someone that is an excessive caregiver is going to be more likely to stay with a BPD/NPD longer?


Yes. As you and I can attest, we excessive caregivers stay MUCH longer. Generally, BPDer relationships tend to last about 18 months or 12-15 years. They last up to 18 months when the abused partner has strong personal boundaries. In this case, he will enjoy the passionate 6-month courtship period and then will be willing to spend another 6 or 12 months trying to restore his GF to that glorious woman he saw at the beginning. Then he walks.

The R/S lasts 12-15 years for excessive caregivers like you and me. We have enormous affective empathy and very low personal boundaries. Hence, while trying to help our loved one, we become enmeshed to such a great extent that most of us are unable to ever walk away. Instead, the BPDers typically walk away from us after about 12-15 years. 

As the years go by, a BPDer's fear of abandonment grows as she sees her body aging. And she becomes increasingly resentful of our inability to rescue her from unhappiness. In my case, I almost certainly would still be married to my BPDer exW if she had not called the police and had me thrown in jail on a bogus charge. 

Sadly, even my being tossed in jail and locked out of my home wasn't really sufficient. After I got out of jail and found a new apartment, I STILL would not file for divorce because I simply could not imagine that she would betray me by standing in front of a judge and making false testimony. But, six months later when the case went to trial, she did exactly that. The next day I filed.


----------



## As'laDain

Uptown said:


> Not to me, Asla. Jon is describing a toxic marriage that sounds much different from that described by you and your W, Akinaura. I will mention three differences that seem particularly striking.
> 
> *One difference* is that, whereas Jon is describing a W who is very controlling (to prevent him from being too close or too far away), you are describing a W (Akinaura) who loves for you to take control. That is why she likes the Dominant/Submissive (D/S) lifestyle you both describe in your thread, *I am My Wife's Dom*. You say the D/S role playing extends beyond your sex life into your entire lifestyle together.
> 
> As Akinaura explains in that thread (post 17), _"I needed him to take control in the exact same way! I hated feeling like I needed to control everything. So I sat him down and explained why I needed the D/S lifestyle." _Jon, however, is not describing a W who needs the D/S lifestyle. Rather, he is describing a W who has a great fear of control and engulfment.
> 
> *A second difference* is that, whereas Jon says his W exhibits most of the BPD warning signs, you say your W does not. Specifically, you say _"My wife has her own issues, but nothing as irritating as BPD"_ (4/5/14 post). Your W agrees. She says (11/30/14) that her behavioral issues are not due to BPD but, rather, _"due to depression and fibromyalgia._" She also says (9/11/14) that she was _"diagnosed with GAD w/ Agoraphobia."_
> *
> A third difference* is that the baggage you brought into the marriage sounds much heavier than what Jon had to carry. Whereas Jon says he had loving and supportive parents, you describe a childhood that was so horrible it is a wonder you managed to survive. Your mother threw knives at you, tried to stab you, and broke a wooden chair over your back. You would survive oftentimes by sleeping on the ground in the woods to be safe from the chance of her going on a midnight rampage. You say (11/22/16) that your mother was diagnosed as having Dissociative Identity Disorder (aka, Multiple Personality Disorder).
> 
> The result of that childhood abuse is that you've been _"told by many, who know what they are talking about, that I have strong indicators that I am, or at least was, a sociopath" _(8/9/16 post). You also say (11/17/16) that 12 years ago _"I did have a psychologist tell me I was a sociopath." _Another result of the abuse is that you did not learn how to love anyone until you were being pronounced dead. You say, _"It wasn't until I heard my own time of death being announced that I realized that I can really love someone, out of choice_" (8/9/16 post).


I used to think that BPD was a "all or nothing" kinda thing. Be careful about dismissing my experiences based on how things are now. 

Truth is, our marriage was horrible. My wife threw knives at Mr too when we were first married. A lot of people told me I married a younger version of my mother...

I have never gone into the full extent of my wife's past behavior, and I likely never will on these forums. That would invite a lot of pointless criticism of both myself and my wife. 

The point though is that my wife displayed every single characteristic of BPD, even self mutilation. Damn near every time I see you post up the BPD traits, its in a thread where someone describes us several years ago. Through time, with motivation, she developed better coping skills and now functions better as an adult. 

I have not seen anything on any of these "BPD" threads that I have not had to face in real life, with akinaura. To this day she still fears being abandoned even though she knows logically that I am not likely to leave her, especially now that things are so good. As time goes on, I continue to encourage her to do things that help her to abate that fear.

Jonny and his wife do not sound like my wife and I today. But nobody on these forums, not even those who have met us in person, has any clue how bad it was when we first started. If it weren't for the fact that I'm a little bit insane, I probably would have left her years ago. I did not fear physical abuse, jail time, having my reputation destroyed, etc. It was all a possibility that I accepted. 

Nobody would have blamed me for leaving her. I'm glad I didnt. Who she is today is a different person than who she was back then. As am i. The emotions are changing slowly, but fvck emotions. Emotions don't rule either of us anymore.


----------



## As'laDain

@Jonny Be Confused
400 to 600 dollars a month for mushrooms? what is she buying, wild collected cordyceps sinensis? 

regardless, the cancer thing sounds like her trying to get sympathy, a way to pull you back in so that she can diminish the fear of being abandoned. a plea, "please dont look at my behavior, look at this terrible illness, please love me". of course, if its a false fear, one used to pull you back in, then she will not be able to keep up the charade for long and will resent herself, and in turn you, for it.

she knows she has messed up. if she is pulling away now, so quickly, then your marriage is probably going to end soon, unless you can find a way to change things. at this point, she probably doesn't believe that you could love her, and she knows that trying to push for the relationship is grasping at straws. she knows you are on the way out and she is grabbing at whatever she can to keep you there.

the question you have to ask yourself is if you are willing to try and change your dynamic, or if you would rather just get a divorce and cut your losses. changing requires more work and dedication, because you will have to change the way you do things too. you will have to change the way you act, portray yourself, etc. at times, you will have to act like certain things don't bother you at all when they really do, and at others you will have to act like certain things bother you when they really don't. the goal is to find a way to motivate your wife to act in a more productive way, just the same as you have to in order to deal with her outbursts and verbal abuse. 

at times, you will have to use her fear of abandonment, her fear of being exposed, her desires for the passionate reconciliations that BPDers are so well known for, etc. all of it is oriented at getting her to act appropriately regardless of how she _feels_.

she will likely not believe that you are serious at first because the change will be seemingly out of nowhere. the quickest way to convince her that you ARE serious is to simply do everything you say you will do, and state what you will do often and accurately. for instance, if you are upset with her, tell her that you are upset with her and will not speak to her until you calm down. and that you will check in every 30 minutes to let her know whether you have calmed down or not. or, do the same if SHE is the one who cannot calm down. tell her that you will refuse to speak to her until she calms down, and you will check in every 30 minutes to see if she has. 

she will likely do whatever she can to sabotage your efforts at first. for instance, if you tell her that you will check in with her every 30 minutes, she may make herself unavailable. just let her know that you will make one attempt to check in and then you will wait another half hour. after three or four attempts, you will stop trying to engage with her. 

the point is, do not give her the option of controlling your actions unless it is on your terms. by all means, give her a way to talk to you again, and give her a way to "make it right" between the two of you, but make sure that it is something that you can actually accept. its her choice to do it or not. YOU cannot afford to go back on your word. if you say you will do something, do it, even if it scares you.

her verbal abuse is causing you to consider leaving her. for that reason, she needs to experience the fear of being abandoned by you EVERY single time she decides to verbally abuse you. that doesnt mean that you actually have to leave her. simply telling her you will leave for an hour and refusing to engage her for said hour will likely be enough to hit on that fear of abandonment. do this a few times and your wife will likely be the one walking off in order to calm down rather than you walking away. that would be a step in the right direction because she would then have to calm herself down, something she apparently doesn't do much.

when i first started up with all this, we would have arguments that often lasted several days, with her going back and forth between trying to love bomb me, act like nothing was wrong, or scream out in anger, throw stuff, etc. i would not tell her we were "good" until she apologized for her behavior. for her to apologize meant that she did something "bad", a hard thing for her to accept at the time because she believed that "bad" people get abandoned. they aren't worth love. only "bad people" do bad things, and if she had done something bad, then she must be a bad person. 

i had no hope of getting her to really open up to me until she understood that she could fvck up and i would still love her. she couldn't believe me when i said i still loved her because nobody else in her life had every stuck with her through it. they had all used, abused, and abandoned her at some point. 

your wife probably really hates herself, or at least she would, if she could stomach the thought of looking at herself. looking at herself is probably the most terrifying thing she could ever do. if she did, she would see that she does bad things, and would know she is a "bad person". and that means that she is unworthy of love. scary stuff, no? 

but that's a fallacy...

anyway, carry a VAR. regardless if you want to stay married or not, carry a VAR. it is a vital tool for both paths. i have recorded more interactions between my wife and i than i care to count. having them prevented her from being able to do the easy thing of rewriting history, and forced her to accept the truth of her own behavior. she is a joy to me, she really is. i couldn't be more proud of her growth and progress...


----------



## As'laDain

where did this term "excessive care giver" come from? i find it interesting, since i know so many professionally BPDers that are in CG/l dynamics. many of them have been happily married for years.

care giver is even in the name of the dynamic...


----------



## Jonny Be Confused

I read somewhere that BPD traits can be inherited if someone has a parent with BPD. Is that a genetic thing or learned? As far as I know nothing overly traumatic happened to my wife when she was younger, maybe some neglect but I don't think it was sever, or the family could have hidden it form me I guess. What I know about her parents I would say her mom definitely has strong BPD traits and her sisters also.

If it is a learned thing does that make it easier for them to get help dealing with the symptoms?

Is it normal for depression to set in when they think that you are getting serious about whats going? She may actually be sick as in have a cold or flu but she didn't go to the doctor and has been in bed sleeping most of the time since Sunday. Not sure if she just feels sick or if its normal for depression to set in.

I am going to put a lot more effort into setting and enforcing boundaries and I can see the poo is going to hit the fan, but that's ok, something has to change.


----------



## As'laDain

Jonny Be Confused said:


> I read somewhere that BPD traits can be inherited if someone has a parent with BPD. Is that a genetic thing or learned? As far as I know nothing overly traumatic happened to my wife when she was younger, maybe some neglect but I don't think it was sever, or the family could have hidden it form me I guess. What I know about her parents I would say her mom definitely has strong BPD traits and her sisters also.
> 
> If it is a learned thing does that make it easier for them to get help dealing with the symptoms?
> 
> Is it normal for depression to set in when they think that you are getting serious about whats going? She may actually be sick as in have a cold or flu but she didn't go to the doctor and has been in bed sleeping most of the time since Sunday. Not sure if she just feels sick or if its normal for depression to set in.
> 
> I am going to put a lot more effort into setting and enforcing boundaries and I can see the poo is going to hit the fan, but that's ok, something has to change.


i dont think it makes any difference if it is a learned issue or a genetic one. the truth is, everyone is capable of making decisions. 

as for depression, i wouldnt be surprised by it. akinaura used to get overwhelmed by depression when she hated herself for her actions. if your wife is thinking "i finally messed up bad enough" then she is probably both hating herself for it and trying to find anything to take her mind off of the fact that she is her own worst enemy. 

the depression is part of the reason i started finding ways for akinaura to "make up for it". if she could do something difficult for her to do that i would accept as a just compensation, or apology, then she would be able to believe that it was something we could get passed. being able to do the work to make amends and have us go back to being "good" allowed her to forgive herself and stop kicking herself for being a ****ty person. 

in short, it gave her hope. she may have messed up, but there was always a way to "fix it". it also provided her with safety, because instead of getting abandoned, her mistakes would only cause her some discomfort. i would still be there if she wanted me to. she just had to do the work to make amends.


----------



## Uptown

Jonny Be Confused said:


> I read somewhere that BPD traits can be inherited if someone has a parent with BPD. Is that a genetic thing or learned?


Jon, as I noted earlier (post #45), the underlying cause of BPD is still unproven. The current theory is that it is caused partly by genetics and partly by early childhood environment (e.g., an abusive or invalidating mother). 

As to the relative importance of these two factors, a number of studies have been done to estimate the role of heritability and environment. Identical twin studies for BPD suggest that the role of heritability explains a bit more than 50% of occurrences and environment explains the remainder. See, e.g., the 2013 JAMA study. This finding suggests BPD is only partly genetic. If it were completely genetic, then if one identical twin had the condition, the other would always be certain to have it.

That 50% figure, however, does not apply to your children. Rather, it applies only to the risk facing a person whose identical twin has already developed BPD. Of more interest, then, are studies showing heritability when one parent or non-twin sibling (i.e., when one first-degree relative) has BPD. 

It is unclear how high that risk is because only a few studies (all with small sample sizes) have been done. Three older studies (1985 and 1988) found that _"between 10 and 20 percent of first-degree relatives of people with BPD also have BPD...."_ See BPD Survival Guide (at p. 42). 

A more recent 2011 study, however, estimates the risk at between 28% and 37%. It therefore concludes that _"An individual with a first-degree relative showing BPD exhibited a statistically significant 3- to 4-fold increase in risk of BPD compared with an individual without a first-degree relative with BPD." _See "Comment" section of BPD Family Study. Whereas the earlier studies had been based on self-reporting by the BPDer patient being treated, this 2011 study was based on interviews of both the BPDer patients and their affected family members. 

The NAMI (National Alliance on Mental Illness) reports an even higher figure. It states "BPD is about five times more common among people who have a first-degree relative with the disorder." See NAMI on BPD. Given that the lifetime incidence is 6% for the general population, this estimate would place the risk at 30%.



> If it is a learned thing does that make it easier for them to get help dealing with the symptoms?


There are no studies addressing that question that I've seen. Keep in mind, however, that the damage to BPDers is believed to occur before the age of five -- at which time the child's emotional development is frozen, preventing the child from developing a stable self image and an ability to self regulate emotions. 

Hence, if the damage occurs that early, as is believed, the damage is so firmly entrenched in the child's way of thinking that, by the time she tries to manage her symptoms 20 years later in adulthood, it likely doesn't matter whether that damage had been caused by genetics or environment. This, at least, is my view.



> Is it normal for depression to set in when they think that you are getting serious about whats going?


Yes, depression is very common in BPDers. The 2008 study found that 80% of female BPDers suffer at some point from a mood disorder and 36% of female BPDers suffer from Major Depressive Disorder.


----------



## RClawson

Sometimes ultimatums are good. You need help as a couple and she needs help as an individual. If she is not interested in participating I would call that a deal breaker.


----------



## Jonny Be Confused

That's the key IF she is willing to see we need to work on these issues together and individually. Once I go to see a psychologist I am hoping they can help point me in the right direction. If she is willing I think she should see her own psychologist though.

It seems like it is important though for it to be of her own free will and not forced into it.

I wish I would have realized some of this stuff especially about the BPD and NPD symptoms years ago. We would either be in a better place now or gone our own ways by now most likely. Now I am learning all this stuff and already at my wits end 

At this point my main hope is we can have a happy and peaceful marriage, which is unfortunately not likely given what I am learning, but if we end up getting divorced I will still live a happy life with or without her.


----------

