# Men v. Women re: sex



## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Having read so many similar posts here, as well as having first-hand experience and IRL anecdotes, I've started to wonder why - typically, and generally - women seem to differ from men so much in regards to sex, sexual touch, etc.

I just finished reading a post on TAM about a man who's wife dislikes her vagina and breasts being touched - during sex. I've also recently read (more than once) about women who dislike receiving oral sex (not uncommon, mind you). No, these aren't typical or common examples, but - I can't say I've ever read or heard about any men who dislike their penis being touched.

As sex (typically) involves the genitals, it's hard to fathom a dislike of one's genitals being touched (or licked, or...)

Furthermore, there have been, and will continue to be, posts about a strong dislike of bodily secretions, the kind typically associated with sexual activity. In most of these instances, it is women who have a phobia or strong dislike of them.

I'm not sure there's a question here, and this is more of an observation, but it seems to me that it's women who typically have these body and bodily fluid fears and phobias and the like - typically not men.

It's interesting to me, because women menstruate, have vaginal secretions, give birth, etc. I would have imagined that women have a high tolerance for quote/unquote "gross" things re: genitals.

Furthermore, and not to change the topic too much, why are so many women worried about their bodies, or what their vagina looks like, or other things like that - with the person they've spent years, or even decades with?


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## Slartibartfast (Nov 7, 2017)

..


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

alexm said:


> Having read so many similar posts here, as well as having first-hand experience and IRL anecdotes, I've started to wonder why - typically, and generally - women seem to differ from men so much in regards to sex, sexual touch, etc.
> 
> After years of reading on here, I find myself wondering why many men would expect women *not* to differ from men so much in regards to sex. I have concluded that men who expect or wish their female partner's sexual drive and desire to work like their own are often more likely to be dissatisfied with their sex lives.
> 
> ...


Is it dislike of, or is it discomfort with? There is a distinction. I think many women often have a harder time relaxing and enjoying particular activities because we can't "shut our minds off" and just focus on the physical. Why? Well, for me it's because the physical is actually not the most important aspect of the sexual activity. I need my head to be in the right place more than anything in order to enjoy sex. 

And yes, I do take responsibility for making sure my head is in the right place so that my husband and I can have a great sex life. But part of that is the ability to be completely honest with him about how that works for me, including how my sexuality is completely different than his. This includes the ability for me to tell him what inhibits my sexuality, and my ability to fully enjoy my sexuality. 



alexm said:


> Furthermore, there have been, and will continue to be, posts about a strong dislike of bodily secretions, the kind typically associated with sexual activity. In most of these instances, it is women who have a phobia or strong dislike of them.


For me, I don't need to "like" everything that he likes. What I need is for him to be okay with me not "liking" everything he likes. I hate it when he tries to figure out what I might like, and then do those things in a bid to please me. It's much easier for me to be completely open and frank about what I like and don't like, and then let him lead in bed. 

There was a period when my likes and dislikes led our sex life, and it was disastrous and neither of us was happy because we weren't having enough sex to satisfy either of our needs. (His physical and my emotional.) He's got a way higher physical need for sex than I do, but my emotional need for it is very, very high. I NEED him to be in charge of making sure his physical needs are met . . . .and this is turn is exactly what I need on an emotional level. I don't want to have to worry about whether I'm "giving him" enough sex. And I don't want to have to worry about faking how much I'm enjoying something that he is doing to me because HE likes it and wants to do it. 

I've talked about this with him a lot. He seems to really get it, and it's such a relief to me. At the same time, he has to know that I'm accepting of his leadership in that area, and am not going to engage in "gatekeeping" activities--including telling him what to do and not to do with my body, on my body, what time of day he can do it, etc, etc. And he needs to understand that if he wants to do things that I'm not feeling like doing, I might not be physically enjoying it, but that I will accept it willingly because it's something he is enjoying. He will sometimes acknowledge that he knows what he's doing or about to do isn't something that's going to drive me wild . . . and then go ahead and do it. It might sounds strange for me to say this: but I am so thankful that he doesn't need constant affirmation that I'm physically enjoying everything we do in bed. 

It's not that we have a perfect sex life where he's always happy and I'm always happy, but we have a framework for turning to if and when things decline in that area. We both try not to over-think it. 



alexm said:


> I'm not sure there's a question here, and this is more of an observation, but it seems to me that it's women who typically have these body and bodily fluid fears and phobias and the like - typically not men.
> 
> It's interesting to me, because women menstruate, have vaginal secretions, give birth, etc. I would have imagined that women have a high tolerance for quote/unquote "gross" things re: genitals.


Our relationships with our own bodies and its functions is an issue separate from how our bodies function in front of or with others. I actually think quite a few men probably experience similar feelings. 



alexm said:


> Furthermore, and not to change the topic too much, why are so many women worried about their bodies, or what their vagina looks like, or other things like that - with the person they've spent years, or even decades with?


I don't know that the answer is the same for all women. Shame, shyness, lack of self-confidence, past experiences, social conditioning . . . .there are probably lots of reasons. Emotional reactions are not something that most people can just turn off and on without a lot of work. With effort a person can change their reactions to things, but unless they feel motivated to do so, they instead try to stay within their comfort zone. That's just human nature. 

Motivation is key. People have to *want* to change in order to undertake change in the first place. Carrots work better than sticks in this area, IMO.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

There are men that have phobias and are squeamish about body fluids and secretions and have hang ups about touching various body parts etc

- those men likely are not sexually assertive and don't have sex at all.

As men are of the sexually aggressors and initiate sexual activity the most - if they are the ones with the hang ups, they likely simply don't have much sexual activity.

Conversely if a woman has the hang up, she will still likely have men initiating sexual activity with her and the issue becomes more acute and real for her.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

I'm not sure about the data on this one. I know of some pretty weird men and frustrated wives when it comes to this.

Anecdotally, Mrs. Conan is more skeeved out by bodily fluids than me.

She has no problem giving and receiving oral and will suck or lick anything on my body!👅😁


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## Spicy (Jun 18, 2016)

Great post. Young women/men and dads/moms should take note of this. They have a HUGE affect on their kids future. 

I greatly appreciate how my parents answered my body/sexual related questions age appropriately, always positively. As I got older they also would talk about how beautiful it was when that relationship is shared by two loving and giving people. I never got even the slightest HINT that I shouldnt enjoy sex, or I should be embarrassed about my body.

I realized only later as an adult what a wonderful gift they had given me by raising me this way. I copied them, and gave my kids the same gift. IMO we should all endeavor to do this. So the majority of people could have better sex lives!


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## Middle of Everything (Feb 19, 2012)

Spicy said:


> Great post. Young women/men and dads/moms should take note of this. They have a HUGE affect on their kids future.
> 
> I greatly appreciate how my parents answered my body/sexual related questions age appropriately, always positively. As I got older they also would talk about how beautiful it was when that relationship is shared by two loving and giving people. I never got even the slightest HINT that I shouldnt enjoy sex, or I should be embarrassed about my body.
> 
> I realized only later as an adult what a wonderful gift they had given me by raising me this way. I copied them, and gave my kids the same gift. IMO we should all endeavor to do this. So the majority of people could have better sex lives!


Great post here as well. If more parents would do this I dont think we would have this perception.

Seems most dads are keen on telling their sons how great their penis's are. Doesnt seem to be the case with mothers and duaghters. I know the fact that penis' are external affects this but it doesnt mean guys have to be positive about them.

Anecdotally for me as well, no problems ever about shaming from parents about penis or masturbation. My wife? MiL told her penis' are ugly and is so repressed about masturbation Im not sure if my wife ever did and also thinks her sons never did as "she did the laundry and would have known". Eye freaking roll.


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## Don't Panic (Apr 2, 2017)

Spicy said:


> Great post. Young women/men and dads/moms should take note of this. They have a HUGE affect on their kids future.
> 
> I greatly appreciate how my parents answered my body/sexual related questions age appropriately, always positively. As I got older they also would talk about how beautiful it was when that relationship is shared by two loving and giving people. I never got even the slightest HINT that I shouldnt enjoy sex, or I should be embarrassed about my body.
> 
> I realized only later as an adult what a wonderful gift they had given me by raising me this way. I copied them, and gave my kids the same gift. IMO we should all endeavor to do this. So the majority of people could have better sex lives!


My parents made a lot of mistakes, but they got this part right. I jokingly refer to my childhood as a hippy upbringing with yuppie parents. We could ask any questions, we were not body shamed, sex and sexual feelings were normal and wonderful but acted upon responsibly. 

So you would think as a new parent I'd have that covered right? Nope. But fortunately I caught myself....this scenario illustrates how easy it is to screw things up inadvertently:
Daughter is 18 months, I'm a busy mom with my newborn son. Changing A LOT of diapers lol. Well some of those diapers were pretty ummmm...messy and I was saying "yucky" to my daughter while changing her. Not thinking a single thing of it, i wasn't disgusted or anything, just making conversation. She started saying "yucky" to me while I was changing her regardless of the level of yuck actually going on. A light bulb went off (thank goodness)....oops, this is how we start body shaming. Oh hell no, I'm not doing that to my children. 
So I went the other way and started saying "pretty" to them BOTH as I changed DIAPERS of all things lol. Just for a few weeks to kinda undo the mentality I had created. It worked. That 18 month old was pretty proud of her equipment. We've got entertaining stories of when the aunts and uncles visited during _*that*_ time period. I would not trade those funny stories for the alternative (unattainable) perfect parenting in a million years. She's 21 now and all is well. Although I'm sure they could tell you some other mistakes we made!


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## BAN919 (Nov 20, 2017)

I think all these posts bring up great points. I have met both men and women that are ignorant of their basic anatomy and bodily functions. Also ignorant of the other genders anatomy and bodily functions. I grew up with a single mother, that is a nurse, and very religious. She taught me the correct names for all of my body parts and when puberty hit she taught me about how my reproductive system worked, as well as how a males reproductive system worked. She never once made me feel that my body was dirty or that sex was sinful and dirty. She did emphasize abstinence because she felt it was right but did not sacrifice understanding of myself to promote it.

As far as body as comfort with our bodies and sex... Everyone I have ever known both in platonic relationships and intimate ones, they all have something about their bodies they feel uncomfortable with. Men and women are presented with societal ideals constantly whether we realize it or not.

Personally, I have never felt overwhelmed or judged in a sexual encounter by my body and I have not judged another person's body while having sex with them or being intimate. It doesn't even register to do that. So I have never felt inhibited in that sense. What I do have trouble understanding is my husband has seen me naked every day for five years. He still talks about how much it arouses him and how he wants me. I find it baffling sometimes. But I am glad he feels it because I feel that way about him. In the end, we all come from different background with different understandings of ourselves and sex. Some people have room for boundaries to be pushed and others do not. Part of sex is being mature enough to respect the other person and be self aware enough to know what we can and cannot live with and realize that this may change with time. 

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

BAN919 said:


> Personally, I have never felt overwhelmed or judged in a sexual encounter by my body and I have not judged another person's body while having sex with them or being intimate. It doesn't even register to do that. So I have never felt inhibited in that sense. What I do have trouble understanding is my husband has seen me naked every day for five years. He still talks about how much it arouses him and how he wants me. I find it baffling sometimes. But I am glad he feels it because I feel that way about him. In the end, we all come from different background with different understandings of ourselves and sex. Some people have room for boundaries to be pushed and others do not. Part of sex is being mature enough to respect the other person and be self aware enough to know what we can and cannot live with and realize that this may change with time.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


I thought this was really well stated. It makes sense to really try and understand your partner's boundaries--not just what they are, but WHY they are. It opens the doors for some productive, non-threatening conversations that might enable your partner to re-examine their own boundaries and consider change, growth, etc. 

I also feel extraordinarily lucky to have parents who didn't saddle me with shame about my body or about sex (not that they had much to say it about it, lol), and to have a husband who has never once been negative about my body. On the contrary, he is demonstratively and vocally turned on by it, and makes me feel so desired that I'm usually able to put my own hang ups aside in the face of his enthusiasm. I wonder if men realize how very, very important it is to allow a woman the space to deal with her body issues, while not allowing them to change how he sees her as a desirable sexual being. It's a delicate balance, perhaps.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

GettingIt_2 said:


> I thought this was really well stated. It makes sense to really try and understand your partner's boundaries--not just what they are, but WHY they are. It opens the doors for some productive, non-threatening conversations that might enable your partner to re-examine their own boundaries and consider change, growth, etc.
> 
> I also feel extraordinarily lucky to have parents who didn't saddle me with shame about my body or about sex (not that they had much to say it about it, lol), and to have a husband who has never once been negative about my body. On the contrary, he is demonstratively and vocally turned on by it, and makes me feel so desired that I'm usually able to put my own hang ups aside in the face of his enthusiasm. I wonder if men realize how very, very important it is to allow a woman the space to deal with her body issues, while not allowing them to change how he sees her as a desirable sexual being. It's a delicate balance, perhaps.


We do, or at least I did. Wonder how few women realize there is a limit, we can be talked out of it after 15 or 20 years of your ( not you in particular of course) negative reinforcements


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

GettingIt_2 said:


> I thought this was really well stated. It makes sense to really try and understand your partner's boundaries--not just what they are, but WHY they are. It opens the doors for some productive, non-threatening conversations that might enable your partner to re-examine their own boundaries and consider change, growth, etc.
> 
> I also feel extraordinarily lucky to have parents who didn't saddle me with shame about my body or about sex (not that they had much to say it about it, lol), and to have a husband who has never once been negative about my body. On the contrary, he is demonstratively and vocally turned on by it, and makes me feel so desired that I'm usually able to put my own hang ups aside in the face of his enthusiasm. I wonder if men realize how very, very important it is to allow a woman the space to deal with her body issues, while not allowing them to change how he sees her as a desirable sexual being. It's a delicate balance, perhaps.





anonmd said:


> We do, or at least I did. Wonder how few women realize there is a limit, we can be talked out of it after 15 or 20 years of your ( not you in particular of course) negative reinforcements


I'm not sure how many women realize it or think about it. It's in that category of issues, I guess, that can slowly erode intimacy. The man is feeling it as a problem, while the woman just feels it's an unchangeable part of "who they are" and wants to be allowed to feel what she feels. Resentment can grow on both sides. 

But I guess when I asked, "I wonder if men realize how very, very important it is to allow a woman the space to deal with her body issues, while not allowing them to change how he sees her as a desirable sexual being.", I was thinking of men who haven't reached their limit, who haven't given up or checked out, but who are looking for ways to continue working on improving intimacy with their wives. It might be something for those men to consider, if indeed they are not already on top of it. 

By the same token, women should consider that their partner might have a limit for how negative body image and hang ups affect intimacy. 

My husband's behavior and attitude just makes me able to keep my self image issues in the background when I am with him. Once in awhile it takes some gentle encouragement from him, but how he can make me feel just drowns out that negative voice in my head.

But again, I don't have a history of negative conditioning from parents or intimate partners to do battle with in my head.


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## flowersandsun (Sep 23, 2017)

But what if your husband rarely gives the positive attention so as to feel that sexual desire from him? There was a post awhile ago titled "If i tell him what to do, it isn't genuine is it?" I feel this way all the time. He literally says he's clueless. So if i tell him what i need in terms of "words of affirmation" how is that genuine? I actually feel my negative body image comes directly from his lack of attention in that area. I get many positive comments from men & women outside of my marriage, but rarely from the one that i am most intimate with. He wants to try harder and we are working on it but it really hurts me that it does not come naturally to him. It's been a longstanding issue for me and i don't have any negative conditioning from the past. We have gone to counselling in the past and this was discussed among other things like lack of affection etc.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

flowersandsun said:


> But what if your husband rarely gives the positive attention so as to feel that sexual desire from him? There was a post awhile ago titled "if i tell him what to do, it isn't genuine is it? I feel this way all the time. He literally says he's clueless. So if i tell him what i need in terms of "words of affirmation" how is that genuine? I actually feel my negative body image comes directly from his lack of attention in that area. I get many positive comments from men & women outside of my marriage, but rarely from the one that i am most intimate with. He wants to try harder and we are working on it but it really hurts me that it does not come naturally to him. It's been a longstanding issue for me and i don't have any negative conditioning from the past.


If it matters, I'm in the same boat (and I'm a guy). Wife has never, and I mean never, made a positive (or negative, for that matter) comment about my body. Is it because she doesn't like it, or is it because she's just not wired that way?

I believe it's the latter. BUT, it's hard not to think it's the former, sometimes.

Unfortunately, some people like you and I, need to hear things like that from our partners. But they don't speak our language.


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## BAN919 (Nov 20, 2017)

flowersandsun said:


> But what if your husband rarely gives the positive attention so as to feel that sexual desire from him? There was a post awhile ago titled "if i tell him what to do, it isn't genuine is it? I feel this way all the time. He literally says he's clueless. So if i tell him what i need in terms of "words of affirmation" how is that genuine? I actually feel my negative body image comes directly from his lack of attention in that area. I get many positive comments from men & women outside of my marriage, but rarely from the one that i am most intimate with. He wants to try harder and we are working on it but it really hurts me that it does not come naturally to him. It's been a longstanding issue for me and i don't have any negative conditioning from the past.


I can understand how you feel. I dislike telling my husband what to say or do because it feels as though it isn't genuine when he does it. However, think about it this way... If you tell him exactly the kinds of things you wish he would say or do and he begins to do them, you can show a positive response and appreciation. This would probably lead to him understanding what you are seeking and he will be more capable of doing it independently. 

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## flowersandsun (Sep 23, 2017)

BAN919 - you said "my husband has seen me naked every day for five years. He still talks about how much it arouses him and how he wants me."
Never have i heard any words to this affect so count yourself lucky...sounds like he gets it...my husband has said i'm beautiful a few times but really nothing beyond that basic type of compliment in the body image dept....i will try your suggestions thanks.

alexm - yea my husband is an "acts of service" type of guy...not many words to show his love but he's working on it...


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Ladies, so, once men have served you with acts of service, do you feel superior, or is it more of a, "I am worth his efforts", self-esteem boost? 

Once you've had your first orgasm, if you can get there, is it easier to focus on the physical?


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## Middle of Everything (Feb 19, 2012)

alexm said:


> If it matters, I'm in the same boat (and I'm a guy). Wife has never, and I mean never, made a positive (or negative, for that matter) comment about my body. Is it because she doesn't like it, or is it because she's just not wired that way?
> 
> I believe it's the latter. BUT, it's hard not to think it's the former, sometimes.
> 
> Unfortunately, some people like you and I, need to hear things like that from our partners. But they don't speak our language.


 Your wife and my wife sound VERY similar Alex. 

While my wife has said nice things about my body it only came after I said something to her. I admittedly had been slacking in the body department. Decided I needed to get back into it and had improved quite a bit getting up to 180-200 push ups a day and at least 100+ crunches a day. Wife said ZERO. Finally asked her wtf? Of course get an answer that didnt want to say something because that would acknowledge that I had been less appealing before. Sure ok. Not saying I looked omg good, but some kind of acknowledgement would have been nice. 

And for something more on topic, my wife is more squeamish about "sex" fluids. I think this could be due to MiL being a borderline germaphobe as far as handwashing etc goes. IMO this contributed to my wife being less comfortable with what most would consider natural and even potentially sexy things.


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

Well I'm a vegetarian that swallows, not sure I fit into your generalisation about men v women >

As for words of affirmation and the like, he tells me everyday I am beautiful and sexy, I tell him he is gorgeous and sexy. IMHO my body is average but he tells me otherwise and has done so consistently for years, it makes me feel confident.


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## flowersandsun (Sep 23, 2017)

Middle of Everything- About the squeamish nature of your wife and MIL influence, i am huge on the hand washing and germ worries in day to day life but have no problem with any of that stuff in bed which is interesting actually...just don't even think about it at all...glad i can at least relax in that area LOL


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## flowersandsun (Sep 23, 2017)

2ntnuf - not sure what you mean about self esteem boost from the "acts of service"...it's just his way of showing love (doing nice things for me) it does not boost my self esteem unfortunately i wish it did.....


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

flowersandsun said:


> 2ntnuf - not sure what you mean about self esteem boost from the "acts of service"...it's just his way of showing love (doing nice things for me) it does not boost my self esteem unfortunately i wish it did.....


I figure there are two ways it can go. Either a woman feels special because the man she loves is doing something to help her, or she feels empowered because he has done what he was told with little effort. I'm sure there can be more, but that's all I could think of that might happen.

One of those, should help a woman to feel more free to enjoy the sexual contact and allow her to more easily achieve orgasm. Of course, there is technique and love, respect, etc. which must be attended to during sexual encounters. However, once those things are accomplished, and an orgasm is achieved, is it easier to focus the mind on the sex and less on the other burdens of life, allowing for easier second or more orgasms? 

I'm guessing it is, but I have never asked a woman this before.


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## Spicy (Jun 18, 2016)

2ntnuf said:


> I figure there are two ways it can go. Either a woman feels special because the man she loves is doing something to help her, or she feels empowered because he has done what he was told with little effort. I'm sure there can be more, but that's all I could think of that might happen.
> 
> One of those, should help a woman to feel more free to enjoy the sexual contact and allow her to more easily achieve orgasm. Of course, there is technique and love, respect, etc. which must be attended to during sexual encounters. However, once those things are accomplished, and an orgasm is achieved, is it easier to focus the mind on the sex and less on the other burdens of life, allowing for easier second or more orgasms?
> 
> I'm guessing it is, but I have never asked a woman this before.


I think I feel happy that he made the effort, and can tell he genuinely wants me to O. So more on the special side to answer your question, it never makes me for superior or anything. I feel very happy when i watch his fountain myself, so i hope he receives the same satisfaction from experiencing me going over the edge.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Spicy said:


> I think I feel happy that he made the effort, and can tell he genuinely wants me to O. So more on the special side to answer your question, it never makes me for superior or anything. I feel very happy when i watch his fountain myself, so i hope he receives the same satisfaction from experiencing me going over the edge.


Once you get that first one, are you able to focus more on his touch, and all that goes along with the sex or do you still have issues with concentration? 

You brought up another question, I was not expecting. Do most women simply have sex so they can please their partner, or are they interested in their own pleasure, as well? 

I may be misunderstanding your post, but that's how I'm reading it. After being here so long, I find that extremely difficult to believe. Most men, I think, would be happy to show their wife they are enjoying it. I guess they might not be very verbal, though and their wives don't know when they are enjoying themselves and therefore can't enjoy it as much, but I find that strange and nearly unbelievable.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

alexm said:


> Having read so many similar posts here, as well as having first-hand experience and IRL anecdotes, I've started to wonder why - typically, and generally - women seem to differ from men so much in regards to sex, sexual touch, etc.
> 
> I just finished reading a post on TAM about a man who's wife dislikes her vagina and breasts being touched - during sex. I've also recently read (more than once) about women who dislike receiving oral sex (not uncommon, mind you). No, these aren't typical or common examples, but - I can't say I've ever read or heard about any men who dislike their penis being touched.
> 
> ...


There are probably a variety of factors but a few I can think of:

1. Females grow up being told that they should cover up, cross their legs when they sit, be feminine, not to give it up, nice girls don't F***, 'nice girls don't give up the cookie,' etc etc. So there is a large amount of conditioning from young. Males are told to be wild, sow their oats, put notches on their belts, etc.

2. Women who have healthy sexual appetites and sleep with more than one person are often labelled as 'easy' 'bicycles', '*****s' whereas the males are 'good lads', 'jack the lads' 'romeo' etc. Get the picture?

3. so starting from the point it is not surprising that many women have hang-ups. Men do not go into long-term relationships or marriages with those hangups.

4. Many men do not know how to woo their woman. Especially after many years of marriage. once they get the woman they forget to do what they used to do. They are only concerned with the destination and not the journey. Women want the journey, that is how they connect.

5. Physiologically men and women are different. Men's primary need is for sex (with some exceptions) that is how they bond with their mate, woman's primary need is for conversation/attention (nothing to do with sex). So whereas men spend a lot of time thinking about sex, woman do not think so much about it and all its accompaniments.

4.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Thanks for the usual confusing answers I get here. Sorry alex, for asking anything and stopping your thread. I can see that either the women here are unable to speak about sex, or they simply don't want any issues resolved. Unless they just hate me, I can't think of any other reasons. Answers to the questions I posed would help their husbands and boyfriends to give them what they desire and alleviate problems. 

Sometimes, I'm left with the opinion that women like to have something to complain about or excuse them.


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

2ntnuf said:


> Thanks for the usual confusing answers I get here. Sorry alex, for asking anything and stopping your thread. *I can see that either the women here are unable to speak about sex, or they simply don't want any issues resolved. *Unless they just hate me, I can't think of any other reasons. Answers to the questions I posed would help their husbands and boyfriends to give them what they desire and alleviate problems.
> 
> Sometimes, *I'm left with the opinion that women like to have something to complain about or excuse them.*


Um why would people hate an anon person on the other end of the screen?

OK I can't answer your questions because it is difficult to understand what you are saying and asking.
The bolded lines are another reason some don't respond, you come across as either not liking women or having a very low understanding of them. We are all individuals but you seem to lump our gender into one basket.

Most women on here are very able to discuss sex.


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## Spicy (Jun 18, 2016)

2ntnuf said:


> Once you get that first one, are you able to focus more on his touch, and all that goes along with the sex or do you still have issues with concentration?
> 
> You brought up another question, I was not expecting. Do most women simply have sex so they can please their partner, or are they interested in their own pleasure, as well?
> 
> I may be misunderstanding your post, but that's how I'm reading it. After being here so long, I find that extremely difficult to believe. Most men, I think, would be happy to show their wife they are enjoying it. I guess they might not be very verbal, though and their wives don't know when they are enjoying themselves and therefore can't enjoy it as much, but I find that strange and nearly unbelievable.


Absolutely. Once I have one I get even more into it, as the pressure (I put on myself) is gone. I no longer need all that concentration. If he hasn’t cum yet, my full focus and attention goes onto him. For me, seconds and thirds are easy and awesome. I only wish they were on the menu more often. 

I have sex because I want the pleasure myself. In addition I absolutely want to please my husband. If he was horny and I am not, my motto is “come on over...use my body”. The few times in my life that this has occurred, within one minute of kissing I’m dying to go all the way. These have ended up being some of my better O’s. Also I LOVE IT when my husband is louder and expressive to what I’m doing to his body. That ramps me up fast. Hearing him...oh my...let us hear you boys. 

So I can only answer for myself, but those are my replies as a middle aged, married woman with two teens. YMMV- like, a lot.


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## flowersandsun (Sep 23, 2017)

***


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

MrsHolland said:


> Um why would people hate an anon person on the other end of the screen?
> 
> OK I can't answer your questions because it is difficult to understand what you are saying and asking.
> The bolded lines are another reason some don't respond, you come across as either not liking women or having a very low understanding of them. We are all individuals but you seem to lump our gender into one basket.
> ...


I don't know why they would hate, but it was all I was left with. No hello, goodbye or kiss my ass was offered. Might as well say it, it's as good an excuse as no response.


I've only seen a few women here, who were able to discuss sex. I have no issue asking questions or answering. If you have one, ask. 

Let me see if I can help you understand. I don't think it's that difficult. I guess that's why I considered the alternatives must be true.

One post said that women, in general, have a tough time getting their mind into sex. I believe a woman posted that and nothing was said about generalities. I don't understand why you are so touchy with generalities. Women have two breasts. Women have two ovaries. Most women are ticklish. Most women like chocolate. I think these generalities are able to be agreed upon as true. 

Is it hurtful to say that most women need their mind made love to first? It's a generality. 

I took it to be truthful, that women need their mind made love to first, since I have seen many women post similarly. I hope you've seen the same as me. That's a generality, but I think we can agree that it is more common than not, and rarely is there disagreement or hurt feelings for openly stating it to be true. 


Onward and upward....

It was said that touch alone, doesn't do much to arouse. Okay.......?

It was offered as a solution to lack of arousal by touch, that most men do something correctly to help get their partner in the mood long before touch starts. This is another generality that is widely accepted. One example that was corroborated by others was the idea that men don't know their partner's love language and/or don't attempt to speak it beforehand.

Generalities abound. No one got excited, including me. 

Okay, makes sense. Most women's posts I've read on here, say they like, "acts of service", though, not all are the same. I hope you are following, I haven't said anything that can't be corroborated with searches. This isn't easy, but it seemed necessary for understanding. 


Lot's of generalities there, but most posts by women on these, "languages", are similar, if not exactly the same in content. No issues with that from anyone.



So,

~ those acts of service help many women to get their mind off of things that might block them from being in the mood for sexual contact,


~ and it's their mind that has to be made love to first, to get them in the mood to allow sex with their partner,


Therefore:

... it is quite possible that once a woman has the first orgasm during that session where, "acts of service", or whatever love language was spoken, gets her mind onto sexy thoughts, and... 

...will then be more likely to forget about those responsibilities and/or any other things which might cause her to find sexual touch by her partner uncomfortable...


** The woman's body will feel sexual touch as pleasurable, as opposed to discomforting, due to use of "love languages". ** 



In case you think I am generalizing again: 

I'm not so much coming up with this myself and placing these onto all women, but reading, interpreting, and coming to conclusions drawn from being led their by the posts of women in this thread and other thread posts by women. 

I hope that makes sense and is not too harsh for anyone. 

So, then I'm thinking:

After the first orgasm, it is possible the next will come more easily, due to the woman's pleasurable feelings from the touch of her partner, instead of thoughts of, "responsibilities", in quotes because I think that's the term that was used. 


Now, for my question, which arose from being led by the posts of many women here and in other threads. 

Is this true or false? Why?

From my own experiences, I believe the women I was with, felt the touch as pleasurable, as long as I was being gentle and in no hurry. I wonder if it is possible that mostly, touch does feel great, just as for men... but without, "making love to her mind", first, it feels too rapey and fear sets in and doesn't allow for enjoying the pleasurable touch? 


That's a long one and I don't expect you to understand it. It's what was in my mind....shrugs....


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

2ntnuf said:


> I don't know why they would hate, but it was all I was left with. No hello, goodbye or kiss my ass was offered. Might as well say it, it's as good an excuse as no response.
> 
> 
> I've only seen a few women here, who were able to discuss sex. I have no issue asking questions or answering. If you have one, ask.
> ...


lol maybe it is me but I struggle to follow your posts.

Still not sure of what you are saying or are you asking something?

Many, many, many women discuss sex here, in great detail often, maybe you haven't seen those posts, who has time?

I eat about one block of chocolate a year or so.
Don't need acts of service to want to have sex.
My mind is usually already thinking about sex before we do it.
My husband is very vocal before, during and after sex (snoring haha).

What nationality are you if you don't mind me asking.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

flowersandsun said:


> 2ntnuf - regarding the term "acts of service"...i was referring to his day to day way of showing his love from the book 5 Languages of Love.
> I think you thought i meant acts of service in the bedroom, is that correct? To that i'll say Yes feeling special or empowered probably helps O's.
> 
> i have no problems with concentration and O's but Yes probably easier to get to 2 & 3 and put aside other mundane thoughts after the 1st.
> And Yes in my case like to please my partner and focus on my own pleasure as well, both go together...we have no issues in that area...


No, and I made it more general because I was hoping to learn something without asking anyone in particular about their personal sex life, which has very little to do with answering any questions, other than helping to solve something in your life. 

I don't have a desire to know what anyone in particular is doing, because I know specifics are best left up to the individuals involved. 

I hope that helps.


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## David51 (Sep 12, 2017)

alexm said:


> Having read so many similar posts here, as well as having first-hand experience and IRL anecdotes, I've started to wonder why - typically, and generally - women seem to differ from men so much in regards to sex, sexual touch, etc.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




If I were a standup comic, I would have a good time with your post. Not being so I think it is a simple answer is that individuals are different. i know men who love receiving sex but they are themselves pickie eaters....another man could easily snatch that guys lady away from him. Same goes for the opposite. After we get married it is assumed we have take a test drive and would not commit a life time to a man or woman who isn’t into the same sex we are into. As the say one mans vanillia is anothers butter pecan. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

MrsHolland said:


> lol maybe it is me but I struggle to follow your posts.
> 
> Still not sure of what you are saying or are you asking something?
> 
> ...





MrsHolland, I decided to be as vulnerable as I could and was abused for it.


I'm a black woman. 




If there are any respectable women here that would like to answer, I'd be willing to read your considered response. 


Get some of that good sex, MrsHolland. You are very uptight.


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

2ntnuf said:


> MrsHolland, I decided to be as vulnerable as I could and was abused for it.
> 
> 
> I'm a black woman.
> ...


TFF I always thought you were a man. 

And good sex isn't what I want, great sex is what I want and get. 

And no I'm actually the opposite of uptight but you seem to use this come back quite often on TAM, the misconduct thread is a good example. I asked what nationality you are because very often you seem to take offense so if English is not your first language then it is understandable.

All the best to you.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

MrsHolland said:


> TFF I always thought you were a man.
> 
> And good sex isn't what I want, great sex is what I want and get.
> 
> ...



I figured it was that thread. I'm pretty good, after all. So, you were being passive aggressive, like I thought. Okay, that's normal for you. 

Come to the thread and make your statements. 

Why is it okay for a woman to say those things and not a man? 

I'm a man, of course.


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

2ntnuf said:


> I figured it was that thread. I'm pretty good, after all. So, you were being passive aggressive, like I thought. Okay, that's normal for you.
> 
> Come to the thread and make your statements.
> 
> ...



:scratchhead: okey dokey, so you are a man that says your are a woman but you are looking for open discussion. Does not compute.

And PA is not my style, very direct actually and don't suffer fools easily. Have given this too much energy already.

Carry on.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

@2ntnuf

I didn't answer your questions because they don't really apply to me. I like sex. A lot. I don't have trouble shutting down my mind, my vag doesn't dry up if there's dishes in the sink or some shyte like that, I didn't lose any of my drive during my pregnancies or after the births of any of my 3 kids, I don't have any issues with bodily fluids, I love oral, anal, PIV, toys, fantasy, enjoy more than a few kinks, and my only hard boundary is I am a firm monogamist. 

Sometimes, I feel like some kind of oddball anomaly.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

MrsHolland said:


> :scratchhead: okey dokey, so you are a man that says your are a woman but you are looking for open discussion. Does not compute.
> 
> And PA is not my style, very direct actually and don't suffer fools easily. Have given this too much energy already.
> 
> Carry on.


You could have let it go a long time ago.


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

MJJEAN said:


> @2ntnuf
> 
> I didn't answer your questions because they don't really apply to me. I like sex. A lot. I don't have trouble shutting down my mind, my vag doesn't dry up if there's dishes in the sink or some shyte like that, I didn't lose any of my drive during my pregnancies or after the births of any of my 3 kids, I don't have any issues with bodily fluids, I love oral, anal, PIV, toys, fantasy, enjoy more than a few kinks, and my only hard boundary is I am a firm monogamist.
> 
> Sometimes, I feel like some kind of oddball anomaly.


Well you would fit in perfectly we me and my friends. IME your attitude, lifestyle is the norm and TAM is the anomaly.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

MJJEAN said:


> @2ntnuf
> 
> I didn't answer your questions because they don't really apply to me. I like sex. A lot. I don't have trouble shutting down my mind, my vag doesn't dry up if there's dishes in the sink or some shyte like that, I didn't lose any of my drive during my pregnancies or after the births of any of my 3 kids, I don't have any issues with bodily fluids, I love oral, anal, PIV, toys, fantasy, enjoy more than a few kinks, and my only hard boundary is I am a firm monogamist.
> 
> Sometimes, I feel like some kind of oddball anomaly.


The whole premise seemed like a bull**** story. I didn't want to call anyone out, though, so I had to ask. Hey, maybe it was true and I had something to learn? Okay......I had to ask to find out, right? 

I wasn't trying to screw with anyone. I know some think I was. That's the trouble with this place. You can't be open and honest. You have to be too careful and the questions get lost in the shuffle. 

Thank you. I have never encountered having to pay for sex with love languages. I've only had to use them to show that I loved someone. Sexual attraction was something chemical that couldn't be explained and desire couldn't be driven off due to, like you say, "dishes in the sink".

I didn't lose attraction with my first wife, but I was so uneducated and inexperienced back then, that I didn't want to have sex in the third trimester. Something messed with my head. It was untrue thoughts that did that. There was no internet and I could not talk with parents. No way. hahaha

I don't have issues with bodily fluids, either. I never liked sex during periods, though I don't think that's unusual. I do have kinks, but they are mostly unexplored. It takes great trust for me to open up. I like cunnilingus and PIV, but not anal. I've done it, but I don't like it. I think she asked for it to try and please me, but I only ever said I wondered what it felt like. When it happened, I didn't like the feeling or the fact that she may or may not find it pleasurable. Didn't want to hurt her and it wasn't worth the risk. I'm not against using toys if she wants. Whatever works, though those vibrating **** rings are too strong for me. I don't like them. Not sure what fantasy is, but if it means some dress up, I'm all for it. Wore some toy spurs once and had fun with that. 

It wasn't that I wanted to know what anyone liked. It was simply the parts about not feeling horny unless there was some, "love language", used. Seemed like there was a connection between that and orgasm. Then, I wondered if it was easier the second time. 

So, I don't mind sharing my thoughts on things, since you did, but the question was more about loosening up after the first one, if it took so much to get there. Seemed odd as hell, if there is natural attraction there.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

David51 said:


> If I were a standup comic, I would have a good time with your post. Not being so I think it is a simple answer is that individuals are different. i know men who love receiving sex but they are themselves pickie eaters....another man could easily snatch that guys lady away from him. Same goes for the opposite. After we get married it is assumed we have take a test drive and would not commit a life time to a man or woman who isn’t into the same sex we are into. As the say one mans vanillia is anothers butter pecan.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Yes, individuals ARE different, of course. Many men also have these phobias, too. But, IMHO, it's a little more skewed in favour of women who are like this.

As @aine said in her post above, the background reasons are fairly obvious and common.

I'm talking a bit more about after years of marriage or partnership - how are these women (and men) still grossed out about these things? How do they still feel embarrassed about their bodies when they hear regular positive comments from the only person that should matter in that regard?


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

alexm said:


> Yes, individuals ARE different, of course. Many men also have these phobias, too. But, IMHO, it's a little more skewed in favour of women who are like this.
> 
> As @aine said in her post above, the background reasons are fairly obvious and common.
> 
> I'm talking a bit more about after years of marriage or partnership - how are these women (and men) still grossed out about these things? How do they still feel embarrassed about their bodies when they hear regular positive comments from the only person that should matter in that regard?


Some people are just grossed out and that's cool. I cannot deal with blood and guts to the point where I struggle to help my kids when they are hurt.

In long term marriage where one person used to be OK with bodily fluids and then isn't it may be a loss of love/attraction. I often ask MrH if I can use his hanky, man oh man with any other person I would vomit at the thought of it.
He is also the only person I can share food with like an apple.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

Oh, sorry. I'm still struggling to get past the OP. If it's any one gender that has more insecurity about their genitalia, it isn't women. If you don't believe me, just try cracking a penis joke. 

As for women not liking to be touched? Can't relate!


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> ...
> From my own experiences, I believe the women I was with, felt the touch as pleasurable, as long as I was being gentle and in no hurry. I wonder if it is possible that mostly, touch does feel great, just as for men... but without, "making love to her mind", first, it feels too rapey and fear sets in and doesn't allow for enjoying the pleasurable touch?
> 
> 
> That's a long one and I don't expect you to understand it. It's what was in my mind....shrugs....


For ME, I am not much into acts of service. It is not that sexual overtures in the absence of a mental and emotional connection feels rapey. It would be very difficult to feel rapey around my husband. I feel unappreciated and unloved. Does that make me a living glory hole? It does not happen at all in recent years since we make love to each other in their way all day every day. DH feels loved through non-sexual touch. Not my thing really. But I make a point when we are together to do drive by touches because I want to show HIM, the way he experiences it, that I love him, for example.

But back when we were marching through our days with little concern for each other, just putting one foot in front of the other to deal with work, kids, household, and he approached me for sex... I was like meh, not right now. Dishes need to be done. Get off me. You are irritating. And I am a HIGHLY sexual person. The touch was NOT pleasurable. It was a demand for something. Or so I felt even though that is not how he intended it.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> Thank you. I have never encountered having to pay for sex with love languages. I've only had to use them to show that I loved someone. Sexual attraction was something chemical that couldn't be explained and desire couldn't be driven off due to, like you say, "dishes in the sink".


I am sort of disturbed by the notion that one is paying for sex by being attentive and loving in life. The one thing I do think people often miss, male and female, is that being attentive and loving in life needs to be done THEIR way by listening (within the lines and between the lines) on how it is done for THEM. It is not prescriptive. If DH did acts of service for me, it would avail him nothing in the loving and attentive department. For ME stuff needs to get done, so we both need to do it. That is not loving to ME. 

Whoever said up-thread that many women have to unpack a lot of familial and societal conditioning around what women are sexually, and what they aren't, is dead on as well. My Mom had an attitude that sex is a horribly difficult thing that wives have to do to please their husbands. YUCK!


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

wild jade said:


> Oh, sorry. I'm still struggling to get past the OP. If it's any one gender that has more insecurity about their genitalia, it isn't women. If you don't believe me, just try cracking a penis joke.
> 
> As for women not liking to be touched? Can't relate!


Many men may have insecurity about their genitalia, or their bodies in general, but you don't really come across too many who, as a result, will not allow someone to touch them sexually.

Regardless, that wasn't the point of the OP. There just seems to be a disproportionate amount of women who hate to be touched in certain places and/or who have phobias about bodily fluids (particularly semen). OR, who hate their vaginas.

Again, the background reasons are obvious and all-too-common, sadly. What I have a hard time grasping is why these things continue well into marriages with partners who clearly and obviously desire, or even lust after, said woman's body.

I have a hairy chest, and I've always been conscious of it. I'm certainly not alone in terms of being a man with a hairy chest, but I'm also very aware that it's generally not a desirable trait for most women, though some women LOVE hairy chests. My wife is definitely not one of them, unfortunately. But I don't have a phobia about being shirtless around her, know what I mean?


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## BAN919 (Nov 20, 2017)

flowersandsun said:


> BAN919 - you said "my husband has seen me naked every day for five years. He still talks about how much it arouses him and how he wants me."
> Never have i heard any words to this affect so count yourself lucky...sounds like he gets it...my husband has said i'm beautiful a few times but really nothing beyond that basic type of compliment in the body image dept....i will try your suggestions thanks.
> 
> alexm - yea my husband is an "acts of service" type of guy...not many words to show his love but he's working on it...


Flowers, I really hope it helps. It sucks to feel less desired by the one you want most. My husband complicates me almost every day whether is be "You look pretty/beautiful" or "I wish I could just bend you over the couch" both are compliments to an extent and have different effects on me. There have been times in our relationships where he would never do it and it was usually there were underlying reasons.

However, I do feel truly that if someone wants to work on these things with you they will try. It isn't romantic and isn't going to give you warm feelings by reminding him of what you are seeking. But hopefully he can realize the commonality and then do it independently and sincerely. 

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

alexm said:


> Many men may have insecurity about their genitalia, or their bodies in general, but you don't really come across too many who, as a result, will not allow someone to touch them sexually.
> 
> Regardless, that wasn't the point of the OP. There just seems to be a disproportionate amount of women who hate to be touched in certain places and/or who have phobias about bodily fluids (particularly semen). OR, who hate their vaginas.
> 
> ...


I'm guessing the main reason you haven't come across such men is that you aren't trying to sleep with men. :wink2:

I get what you're saying, but I also don't think it's fair to take posts from TAM as representative of how women feel about sex. It's a site full of problems, so very skewed. 

Agree, though, that women face a ton of body image issues. This is because we've been taught that our self worth is tied into how we look. Now that guys are getting the same sort of messages, they too are showing more and more of the same kinds of anxieties.


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## BAN919 (Nov 20, 2017)

wild jade said:


> I'm guessing the main reason you haven't come across such men is that you aren't trying to sleep with men. :wink2:
> 
> I get what you're saying, but I also don't think it's fair to take posts from TAM as representative of how women feel about sex. It's a site full of problems, so very skewed.
> 
> Agree, though, that women face a ton of body image issues. This is because we've been taught that our self worth is tied into how we look. Now that guys are getting the same sort of messages, they too are showing more and more of the same kinds of anxieties.


I have to whole heartily agree with this post. Especially when people take their facts and information based on a forum. No one comes here to post about how amazing their marriage is. 

Everyone has body issues. My husband is hairy and sweats a lot. He feels uncomfortable about those facts. I think my breasts look unattractive after I breastfed my child. I have known known muscular, fit "ideal" men that have a few stretch marks because they grew a foot and half over summer break in high school. They feel self conscious about it. The point is men and women both are spoon fed physical and gender role ideals that most can not live up to.

As for that discomfort carrying over to sex...women have been taught for centuries that our bodies are disgusting. Even recently in less developed countries women have died from being locked in a "period Hut" from heat stroke. And I'm sorry, but I have come across too many men that think we pee and bleed from the same hole and people treat our natural bodily functions as something that should be hidden away. A woman's sexuality has also been demonized as well. If a woman is expressive and enjoys sex then she gets called derogatory names. If she doesn't then she is a frigid prude. There is no way to win.

And also, at the end of the day different strokes for different folks. Some people don't like things and that is their right. If your spouse doesn't like aspects of sex or sex acts and you can't not live your life that way then they aren't the partner for you. I hate spit. If my husband had to spit on penis every time we had sex because he loved it I would not be happy.

Their are sexually stifled people of both sexes and they are that way for a variety of reasons. Religion, culture, negative expectations, low self esteem, etc. If they want to change that part of themselves, that's great. If they are happy and don't feel negatively about their likes and dislikes that's great as well. We are who we are. 

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Yeah! Women are disgusting! Eweew!

Oops! Gotta go!

My wife just bent over!!!😈😉


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## David51 (Sep 12, 2017)

After Being on TAM for the last few weeks, if I were not already married I think I would stay single.....or at least try to.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Slartibartfast (Nov 7, 2017)

..


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

David51 said:


> After Being on TAM for the last few weeks, if I were not already married I think I would stay single.....or at least try to.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Illuminate?


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

ConanHub said:


> Yeah! Women are disgusting! Eweew!
> 
> Oops! Gotta go!
> 
> My wife just bent over!!!😈😉


The old "pretending to pick something up" works every time.

I love hairy chests, so masculine.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

wild jade said:


> I'm guessing the main reason you haven't come across such men is that you aren't trying to sleep with men. :wink2:
> 
> I get what you're saying, but I also don't think it's fair to take posts from TAM as representative of how women feel about sex. It's a site full of problems, so very skewed.
> 
> Agree, though, that women face a ton of body image issues. This is because we've been taught that our self worth is tied into how we look. Now that guys are getting the same sort of messages, they too are showing more and more of the same kinds of anxieties.


I know! 

But... I still don't get why a woman - who's told by her partner/husband, perhaps on a daily basis, that he desires her, still feels and acts that way, with HIM.

Or a man, to be fair.


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

alexm said:


> I know!
> 
> But... I still don't get why a woman - who's told by her partner/husband, perhaps on a daily basis, that he desires her, still feels and acts that way, with HIM.
> 
> Or a man, to be fair.


If you were told on a regular basis while growing up that you were dumb, would you believe your wife if she kept telling you that you are smart? The things that get hammered in as a child, teenager don't just leave peoples minds.


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## BAN919 (Nov 20, 2017)

MrsHolland said:


> If you were told on a regular basis while growing up that you were dumb, would you believe your wife if she kept telling you that you are smart? The things that get hammered in as a child, teenager don't just leave peoples minds.


And not only that but a husband's actions need to back up his words. And people need to realize no matter how much reinforcement they give a person some people have broken self esteems and part of it are things they need to overcome themselves with a loved ones support. 

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

MrsHolland said:


> If you were told on a regular basis while growing up that you were dumb, would you believe your wife if she kept telling you that you are smart? The things that get hammered in as a child, teenager don't just leave peoples minds.


That's a hard question to answer, because my _parents_ never really said anything negative (about me, or sex, or whatever).

But generally speaking, my wife has made me see that many perceptions I had of myself were either not true, or simply don't matter. Some things going right back to my childhood. Many thanks to my ex-wife.

I don't know. If every woman who had seen my penis made a negative comment about it, then my wife came along and did nothing but praise it - and then demonstrated to me that she liked it and wanted it - I'd be more apt to go along with what she says - because she's the one that matters at that time.

I see your point, though - upbringing, and especially parents. That stuff is hard to shake.


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## David51 (Sep 12, 2017)

ConanHub said:


> Illuminate?




So many unhappy sad people here and by the replys given to someone in need of help, it is obvious that others are bitter. I am content in my marriage but if I was a single man and reading all of this negativity, Id think twice about marriage. Maybe I’d have a contract drawn up where we could dissolve the marriage if certain needs are not met.

I. Am reminded of an old joke where the bride tells her maid of honor. Last nights BJ is the last one he will ever get.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

alexm said:


> I just finished reading a post on TAM about a man who's wife dislikes her vagina and breasts being touched - during sex. I've also recently read (more than once) about women who dislike receiving oral sex (not uncommon, mind you). No, these aren't typical or common examples, but - I can't say I've ever read or heard about any men who dislike their penis being touched.
> 
> As sex (typically) involves the genitals, it's hard to fathom a dislike of one's genitals being touched (or licked, or...)


I have not read this thread, but wanted to toss this into the conversation. Recent research into those with autism seems to indicate that the respective sensory issues are often highly pronounced in regards to genitals. Research also indicates that just as many females have autism as males, but often go undiagnosed because females with autism are more difficult to detect. 

So for a female with autism it is very possible for her to not even realize she has autism, nor anyone else for that matter. However when it comes to intimacy, she could find the sensations of being touched on her genitals to be so overwhelming that it is uncomfortable and/or even painful. 

The fact that females are so difficult to diagnose with autism could cause a trend in research where one finds more "neurotypical" women that do not like to be touched sexually than compared to same number of neurotypical men. 

For those that want an example of a adult female with autism, here you go... (go to the 8 minute mark for discussions in this video relevant to this thread)






Regards, 
Badsanta


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

_I just finished reading a post on TAM about a man who's wife dislikes her vagina and breasts being touched - during sex._

a smart man would have figured this out during the dating process.


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## JayDee7 (Sep 12, 2017)

I heard once someone say something along the lines of - you cannot compare the sexual desire in men to women because it is like John McCain comparing his Vietnam experience to Jane Fonda’s experience in Vietnam. She played in Vietnam and he was in the s***.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

badsanta said:


> I have not read this thread, but wanted to toss this into the conversation. Recent research into those with autism seems to indicate that the respective sensory issues are often highly pronounced in regards to genitals. Research also indicates that just as many females have autism as males, but often go undiagnosed because females with autism are more difficult to detect.
> 
> So for a female with autism it is very possible for her to not even realize she has autism, nor anyone else for that matter. However when it comes to intimacy, she could find the sensations of being touched on her genitals to be so overwhelming that it is uncomfortable and/or even painful.
> 
> ...


I dunno. It has some merit, but I think we're in the age where everybody possibly, maybe, could have autism. It's like the go-to excuse for 1000 different things.

Anyway. I believe strongly that women have the very same desires men do, when it comes to sex. Unfortunately, men have done a fantastic job of stifling this desire over the past, oh, FOREVER.

As men, we never really feel shame or guilt over having sexual desire. Or actual sex. Or masturbating.

Men don't have the same hatred of their bodies as far too many women do. We don't have the same pressures to look a certain way.

When women who like sex come out and say so, they're either outright labelled, or the men around them make assumptions.

Here on TAM the old "not marriage material" BS is practically a daily occurrence.

It's us men who keep doing this to women, and thus to ourselves. Then we come here and complain about it, and the circle begins again.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

alexm said:


> I dunno. It has some merit, but I think we're in the age where everybody possibly, maybe, could have autism. It's like the go-to excuse for 1000 different things.
> 
> Anyway. I believe strongly that women have the very same desires men do, when it comes to sex. Unfortunately, men have done a fantastic job of stifling this desire over the past, oh, FOREVER.
> 
> ...


Seems legit. Is autism the new ADHD?

As to the two black bolded, I have some difficulty resolving these statements. Women do this to themselves. How many times have people said on this site, uncontested I might add, that a woman can be a basic 5 and get all the attention she could ever want, but for a guy to get by on his looks he's got to be an 8 or 9? Of course there are exceptions, but in the aggregate, while guys may look at porn and rave about blondes and big boobs, most will happily take what they can get. For the most part, women are the ones who get to say yes or no--it should be men who are going all Peacock all the time to compete for them. 

Traditionally, yes, but I think that is changing, at least in the western world. Most men are coming to appreciate a sexually confident woman who knows what she wants and how to get it. The holdout dinosaur ****-shamers are vocal enough that they are heard in excess of the proportion they actually represent. Maybe that's just my impression, but I haven't seen any mainstream ****-shaming or ****-shaming from any widely respected element of society lately.


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## MidnightBlue (Nov 20, 2017)

alexm said:


> I know!
> 
> But... I still don't get why a woman - who's told by her partner/husband, perhaps on a daily basis, that he desires her, still feels and acts that way, with HIM.
> 
> Or a man, to be fair.



For me, it was constantly seeing women judged by appearance that was partially responsible. Men will all too often disregard a woman’s skills, intelligence, capabilities, etc, and focus only in the effect she has on his genitals. We see it all the time with prominent female media figures. 

Then, there is the “locker room” talk that you hear if you’ve ever spent time around groups of men. I’ve heard a LOT of men talk about their women’s bodies, bodily functions/secretions, sex noises, and “O” face in great and often unflattering detail. It always struck me that those women would be heartbroken and humiliated to know they were being discussed . I knew (hoped) my husband would never do that but having been given an insider’s view on male gossip, it put a little nugget of unease in my brain. 

Also, I would view my husband’s enjoyment of porn as a sort of rejection of me. I couldn’t understand how he could look at those women with their perfect bodies and faces and possibly be aroused by a very average me. I considered myself a poor consolation prize or even just a handy hole in regards to his enjoyment of those women’s bodies. 

I’m not saying my reasons were always rational but it took a while to let my guard down and just ENJOY. I’ve always liked sex but now I’m older and care less about what people think of me, including him. I enjoy it much more and don’t care as much if parts of me are squishier than they were when I was 20. :grin2:


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## JayDee7 (Sep 12, 2017)

There was a day early in our marriage that I came home from work very stressed out and angry. When I walked in my wife gave me a kiss and I went to sit on my chair in the living room and put my head back and closed my eyes. My wife asked me what was the matter and I told her I was under a lot of pressure at work and I just needed a to decompress.
My wife kneeled down in front of me and started unzipping my pants and I asked her what she was doing. She said let me help you decompress. She gave me a BJ and I felt great afterward and everything came into perspective. I have my wife and I love her and work or work and I should not bring that stress home, rather I should enjoy my home for what it is as it will bring its own stress and joy. 
One day soon after I came into the house and my wife was very frustrated and stressed, she was ranting and pacing and she felt overwhelmed. I went to kiss her and she gave me her cheek. I tried sitting her down and she reluctantly did. I kneeled in front of her and started feeling her legs and hips and she asked what are you doing, and I answered I am going to help you relax and I tried unbuttoning her pants but she stood up angrily. I said do you want for me to go down on you to help you relax and she said no, she did not want sex right then, how could I even think she would, she went on and on about it.
There is a huge difference between men and women and sex. Men think about sex many times more than women do. Men are just hard (no pun intended) wired to want sex. I know women do not have the same drive generally nor do they want the same drive nor would I wish it on them, otherwise they would be just as controlled by it as many of us men are.


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## toblerone (Oct 18, 2016)

My wife can't handle _any_ physical contact when she's stressed out about things.

Which is all the time.

Just last night when we were alone for a second, I told her I wanted to give her a massage after our kid went to bed. She was upset that I offered.

I mean it's one thing to say "sorry, honey, but I don't feel like that would help me right now", but it's another to just say "NO THAT'S JUST GOING TO MAKE IT WORSE I CAN'T HANDLE THAT RIGHT NOW!".

Don't worry, hun. I learned my lesson. Won't ever happen again.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Seems legit. Is autism the new ADHD?
> 
> As to the two black bolded, I have some difficulty resolving these statements. Women do this to themselves. How many times have people said on this site, uncontested I might add, that a woman can be a basic 5 and get all the attention she could ever want, but for a guy to get by on his looks he's got to be an 8 or 9? Of course there are exceptions, but in the aggregate, while guys may look at porn and rave about blondes and big boobs, most will happily take what they can get. For the most part, *women are the ones who get to say yes or no*--it should be men who are going all Peacock all the time to compete for them.
> 
> Traditionally, yes, but I think that is changing, at least in the western world. Most men are coming to appreciate a sexually confident woman who knows what she wants and how to get it. The holdout dinosaur ****-shamers are vocal enough that they are heard in excess of the proportion they actually represent. Maybe that's just my impression, but I haven't seen any mainstream ****-shaming or ****-shaming from any widely respected element of society lately.


Funny, as when I was writing my reply, I brought up ADD then deleted it. Having been born in the mid-70's and being a child in the 80's, ADD was the "thing". Seemed like every second kid was on Ritalin, or jokingly told to get some.

I'm not at all disputing the prevalence of Autism - definitely a thing. It just seems to be the catch-all for people who behave somewhat out of the norm. Whatever the norm is, I guess.

The thing about the bolded part above is that saying "yes" or "no" isn't all that easy for women, and we men should recognize that a little more. It's not as simple as that. And sometimes, women DON'T get to say "no". Or they do, and it's ignored.

Saying "no" doesn't always mean the man will walk away.

This is a minor example, but highly indicative of what women go through pretty regularly. My wife was out with a few friends a couple of years ago. Not at a club or a bar, or a meat-market - just a friendly little pub. A guy approached her, politely, offered to buy her a drink. Wife said "no thanks, I'm married".

Guy came back NUMEROUS times throughout the night. I guess he figured the more alcohol she consumed, the better chances he'd have, that she'd loosen up or something. Wife ended up telling him he was going to lose some teeth if he kept it up.

Now - did it RUIN her night? No. But, it was definitely annoying, and eventually creepy, AND she had to make sure that when she left the pub he wasn't following.

This is the norm for women. Saying "no", however politely, often doesn't mean jack squat. To guys like you and I - we know better. Unfortunately, far too many men don't. Hell, the fact that my wife felt like she had to qualify her "no thanks" with "I'm married" is also kind of sad. Like she needed a reason to say no.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> As to the two black bolded, I have some difficulty resolving these statements. Women do this to themselves. How many times have people said on this site, uncontested I might add, that a woman can be a basic 5 and get all the attention she could ever want, but for a guy to get by on his looks he's got to be an 8 or 9? Of course there are exceptions, but in the aggregate, while guys may look at porn and rave about blondes and big boobs, most will happily take what they can get. For the most part, women are the ones who get to say yes or no--it should be men who are going all Peacock all the time to compete for them.


This site has some pretty odd ideas about men and women, what we are like, and what our lives are like. These ideas go uncontested, but that doesn't make them true.

Women are taught from day 1 that our value is in our looks, and this is reinforced every day of our lives. Most of us learn to ignore this or eventually stop caring. Some of us are lucky enough to have parents, loved ones, or employers that value us for something beyond our looks. But the reality is that our ornamental value outranks just about everything else in most situations.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

MidnightBlue said:


> For me, it was constantly seeing women judged by appearance that was partially responsible. Men will all too often disregard a woman’s skills, intelligence, capabilities, etc, and focus only in the effect she has on his genitals. We see it all the time with prominent female media figures.
> 
> Then, there is the “locker room” talk that you hear if you’ve ever spent time around groups of men. I’ve heard a LOT of men talk about their women’s bodies, bodily functions/secretions, sex noises, and “O” face in great and often unflattering detail. It always struck me that those women would be heartbroken and humiliated to know they were being discussed . I knew (hoped) my husband would never do that but having been given an insider’s view on male gossip, it put a little nugget of unease in my brain.
> 
> ...


Trust me - I get it. It's never very rational, but I do understand where it's coming from.

The thing women sometimes have to remember is that their partners/husbands also probably don't look like the men that most women fantasize about. To be fair, we're not exactly inundated with ads showing shirtless men with 6-packs and smouldering eyes, but nonetheless. Most of us guys don't look like the "ideal" sex gods most women fantasize about.

In all honesty, it all goes both ways. The main difference being the prevalence of it all. It's more in-your-face for women to look a certain way, as opposed to men. That said, we have our insecurities as well.

It's not the same - I get it. But the next time you feel as though your husband would prefer this body type, or that one - look at his.

If you find him sexy because he's HIM, he likely feels the same about you.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*To a certain extent, when we were kids and adolescents, we were yucked out about bodily fluids, more especially from other people, most notably hearing about girls our same age through bull sessions!

As a young preadolescent, I was so grossed out about hearing about girls bleeding and such that I was resolved in my mind to be a confirmed bachelor, not ever wanting to touch a girl!

But a near decade of erections and orgasmic emissions later, most young men drastically change their mind, seeing the voluptuousness and psychological warmth of a young lady! And I would hope and feel that young ladies come to feel much the same way about their male counterparts!

It’s to the point now that if a woman is not up to my standards in wanting loving sex through either PIV or oral, it is a consummate deal breaker no matter how attached to her that I initially am!

As we mature, we should gravitate toward what sex is all about and was created for ~ for our enjoyment and pleasure, rather than as a vehicle of control and fear!

In essence, I firmly believe that The Heavenly Father gave us sex as a gift of love and pleasure stemming straight from the heart, and never ever intended it as something to be aversive of, feared, or to be used as some kind of control mechanism against each other!*


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

wild jade said:


> This site has some pretty odd ideas about men and women, what we are like, and what our lives are like. These ideas go uncontested, but that doesn't make them true.
> 
> Women are taught from day 1 that our value is in our looks, and this is reinforced every day of our lives. Most of us learn to ignore this or eventually stop caring. Some of us are lucky enough to have parents, loved ones, or employers that value us for something beyond our looks. But the reality is that our ornamental value outranks just about everything else in most situations.


I didn't express any "odd ideas about women." I said_* I *_had trouble reconciling those statements. I'm not making proclamations here--just trying to understand. 

As far as women being taught to value their physical appearance, is that men's fault? Yes, men engage in crude talk about girl bits, but actions speak louder than words. As has been said many times on this site (and elsewhere), a woman who most would perceive as a hopelessly average '5' is still going to get plenty of attention based just on her looks, but for a man to draw attention based solely on looks, he's gotta' practically be Robert Redford or Richard Gere. This is why I'm confused as to why women feel the need to obsess over their appearance. Men are the ones who need a boost in that area, and we really think little about it and put even less effort into it.

And it appears, at least to me, that most of the appearance pressure, women put on themselves... it doesn't come from men. Vogue, Cosmo, Redbook, God knows what else... all these are women's publications that tell women how to be, how to look, how to attract and keep a man, etc. There are entire websites devoted just to hairstyles for chrissake! Does any woman really think a man really cares whether or not she's sporting the latest bob? Do any men actually notice SHOES? Egad--women do most of this to themselves. Indeed I have had women who are a little better at introspection tell me they do these things for themselves, not men. 

Granted, I'm probably missing something here, and I'm admittedly exaggerating a bit for effect. But I do perceive that women put a lot of unnecessary pressure on themselves.

And I suspect some of my confusion is that I seem to be something of an outlier with regard to my perception of female appearance. I like physical attractiveness as much as the next guy, but per my aesthetic, I find most women most attractive without modification. Plain ol' brown hair looks better to me than a bleach job. Lipstick is a turnoff as is obvious makeup of any kind. I'd rather grab a small handful of real flesh than a large handful of silicone. IMO, the sexiest woman is one who confidently rocks her natural state.


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## MidnightBlue (Nov 20, 2017)

It irritates me to keep hearing and reading how a female 5 can get “all the attention” she wants, as if being considered just attractive enough to be used for sex is a positive thing. Yes, we know that most men will gladly do a hump n dump with a 5 but let’s not pretend they don’t keep their sights firmly on the 8s, 9s, and 10s for anything beyond that. Men will use a less attractive woman for sexual release but they still want a woman who makes all their buddies jealous. 

Yes, women can be and all too often ARE shallow but let’s not pretend our shallowness is worse that that of men. Good looking women often want men with money. Men with money often want the best looking women money can buy.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

MidnightBlue said:


> It irritates me to keep hearing and reading how a female 5 can get “all the attention” she wants, as if being considered just attractive enough to be used for sex is a positive thing. Yes, we know that most men will gladly do a hump n dump with a 5 but let’s not pretend they don’t keep their sights firmly on the 8s, 9s, and 10s for anything beyond that. Men will use a less attractive woman for sexual release but they still want a woman who makes all their buddies jealous.
> 
> Yes, women can be and all too often ARE shallow but let’s not pretend our shallowness is worse that that of men. Good looking women often want men with money. Men with money often want the best looking women money can buy.


I didn't mean to imply that this "is a positive thing." I was just relating it to the ability to make an _initial _attraction. Which is often why people put effort into appearance.

Nor did I mean to imply that women are more shallow than men. If anything, I was implying the opposite--you said it yourself--"most men will gladly do a hump n dump with a 5."


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

MidnightBlue said:


> Yes, we know that most men will gladly do a hump n dump with a 5 but let’s not pretend they don’t keep their sights firmly on the 8s, 9s, and 10s for anything beyond that. Men will use a less attractive woman for sexual release but they still want a woman who makes all their buddies jealous.





Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Nor did I mean to imply that women are more shallow than men. If anything, I was implying the opposite--you said it yourself--"most men will gladly do a hump n dump with a 5."


It's not just men who will hump- n -dump a 5. I've known women who were chemically attracted to a 5, had sex with him at least once, enjoyed it immensely, and wouldn't admit it to anyone outside of those who saw them leave together because he wasn't handsome, educated, financially well off, and/or charming enough to be what she considers presentable to her friends and family.

A woman, just like a man, will use a less attractive man for sexual release. They, too, want a man that will make their friends jealous.


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## MidnightBlue (Nov 20, 2017)

MJJEAN said:


> It's not just men who will hump- n -dump a 5. I've known women who were chemically attracted to a 5, had sex with him at least once, enjoyed it immensely, and wouldn't admit it to anyone outside of those who saw them leave together because he wasn't handsome, educated, financially well off, and/or charming enough to be what she considers presentable to her friends and family.
> 
> A woman, just like a man, will use a less attractive man for sexual release. They, too, want a man that will make their friends jealous.


Totally agree. My point was that it is often said that a female 5 can “get” a man easier than the 5 male can get a woman. She’s not “getting” the man, she’s just getting laid. The 5 female is just as lonely as the 5 male. She isn’t any better off than him just because she can get laid by someone who considers her good enough to lay but nothing more.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

JayDee7 said:


> There was a day early in our marriage that I came home from work very stressed out and angry. When I walked in my wife gave me a kiss and I went to sit on my chair in the living room and put my head back and closed my eyes. My wife asked me what was the matter and I told her I was under a lot of pressure at work and I just needed a to decompress.
> My wife kneeled down in front of me and started unzipping my pants and I asked her what she was doing. She said let me help you decompress. She gave me a BJ and I felt great afterward and everything came into perspective. I have my wife and I love her and work or work and I should not bring that stress home, rather I should enjoy my home for what it is as it will bring its own stress and joy.
> One day soon after I came into the house and my wife was very frustrated and stressed, she was ranting and pacing and she felt overwhelmed. I went to kiss her and she gave me her cheek. I tried sitting her down and she reluctantly did. I kneeled in front of her and started feeling her legs and hips and she asked what are you doing, and I answered I am going to help you relax and I tried unbuttoning her pants but she stood up angrily. I said do you want for me to go down on you to help you relax and she said no, she did not want sex right then, how could I even think she would, she went on and on about it.
> There is a huge difference between men and women and sex. Men think about sex many times more than women do. Men are just hard (no pun intended) wired to want sex. I know women do not have the same drive generally nor do they want the same drive nor would I wish it on them, otherwise they would be just as controlled by it as many of us men are.


That's a big truth, right there

(Generalizing)

Men want sex as a stress relief. It relaxes them.

Women do not want sex until they are stress-free. If they are not already relaxed, sex is not appealing.

Maybe this is more related to libido than gender. Maybe the HD person feels sex as the stress relief, and the LD person is the opposite.

If you have this dynamic in your marriage, you have to pay attention to it. Most people don't get out of their own head enough to realize that their partner probably approaches stress and sex from another perspective.

Your wife seems to understand you, and hopefully since that time, you have learned to give her a glass of wine and take over making dinner when your wife is stressed instead of trying to touch her.


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## JayDee7 (Sep 12, 2017)

HopefulCynic, yes that was early on in our marriage, I have learned a lot since then. I am HD and she is mid-D if that makes sense. Still, if she were HD, there is no way in the world I can be convinced she would ever want as much sex as I do or ever enjoy it as much as I do. 

If she woke up early and offered a quickie or a BJ I would say yes, go to work happy, walk in the door and if she offered it again I would say yes, be happy for the evening and again when we go to bed if she offers it again I would say yes and go to sleep happy and wake up and want the exact offers the next day and everyday after and I would say yes every time and enjoy it every time unless I was sick or something. 

On the flip side, if I were to wake up early and offer to go down on her or a quickie, then again after work, then again before turning in for the night, I do not have to give a second thought to the number of times she would decline. It would be the morning and afternoon and every other night and the quickies would not result in orgasm and she would begin to ask me what is wrong with me offering so much sex all the time and think I am a sex obsessed deviant, which I am.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I didn't express any "odd ideas about women." I said_* I *_had trouble reconciling those statements. I'm not making proclamations here--just trying to understand.
> 
> As far as women being taught to value their physical appearance, is that men's fault? Yes, men engage in crude talk about girl bits, but actions speak louder than words. As has been said many times on this site (and elsewhere), a woman who most would perceive as a hopelessly average '5' is still going to get plenty of attention based just on her looks, but for a man to draw attention based solely on looks, he's gotta' practically be Robert Redford or Richard Gere. This is why I'm confused as to why women feel the need to obsess over their appearance. Men are the ones who need a boost in that area, and we really think little about it and put even less effort into it.


When I talked about the "odd ideas", I was merely referencing your claims about "5" women and "8" men that go uncontested. Of course they go uncontested -- these views are the core of the whole TAM experience.

But it doesn't make them true.

"5" women don't get "plenty" of attention, while poor "8" men are barely enough to qualify. It doesn't actually work that way, no matter how many TAMMERs assert it.

Imagine, just for a moment, that you have a woman coming on to you. She really, really, really, wants to get laid. You happen to be the last chance she has for getting that desire realized. You can clearly see that you are the bottom of her list, the very last person she's tried to lay that night. You decide to sleep with her anyway. 

Tell me now: how flattering and wonderful was that experience? Did it tell you that your looks don't matter? Or did it teach you that desperate people will do anything to get what they want, no matter how embarrassed they are about it later?


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

wild jade said:


> When I talked about the "odd ideas", I was merely referencing your claims about "5" women and "8" men that go uncontested. Of course they go uncontested -- these views are the core of the whole TAM experience.
> 
> But it doesn't make them true.
> 
> ...



Are there actually women who 'just want to get laid'? I always have a problem believing it. I know it's probably my problem. I always think for majority of women, it is not all about sex/sexual release but more about feeling 'validated'/connected/appreciated whereas for (most) guys, it can be just about emptying the load and feeling better afterwards from that alone.
Having said that, I would not sleep with a woman who was coming onto me (if I was single). Before anyone tells me it's because I am gay, I always found overly eager women off-putting.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

wild jade said:


> When I talked about the "odd ideas", I was merely referencing your claims about "5" women and "8" men that go uncontested. Of course they go uncontested -- these views are the core of the whole TAM experience.
> 
> But it doesn't make them true.
> 
> ...


I also never implied it was wanted or highly desirable attention. 

Nevertheless, such a woman who will sleep with anything just to get laid is more rare than such a man. So the assertion still has merit on its face. (unless you think this uncontested generalization is also an artificial construct of ignorant TAMmers)


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

inmyprime said:


> Are there actually women who 'just want to get laid'? I always have a problem believing it. I know it's probably my problem. I always think for majority of women, it is not all about sex/sexual release but more about feeling 'validated'/connected/appreciated whereas for (most) guys, it can be just about emptying the load and feeling better afterwards from that alone.
> Having said that, I would not sleep with a woman who was coming onto me (if I was single). Before anyone tells me it's because I am gay,* I always found overly eager women off-putting.*


Ditto. Desperation is not sexy. When I was dating, the quickest way to send me running was to be overly eager.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

I don't think this is a "I am correct and you are wrong" issue. In either direction. I think both sides are correct.

Women are correct that having access to sex relatively easily is no big deal if, in the main, it is access to sex with people you don't much want to have sex with. Once the initial thrill of not feeling desperate goes away, it isn't much of an ego rush that some stranger wants to use you for their satisfaction. Many men don't realize it is no big deal because they are pretty much perpetually under-sexed and continuously rejected so the absence of those states seems like nirvana. It isn't. Having someone put out their cigarette on your arm may not be as unpleasant as being tied to a stake and burned alive, but it isn't pleasant, either.

Men are correct that not having access to pretty much any sex at all (except prostitutes) for long stretches of time is horrid. Many women do not realize how horrid it is. They roughly equate not being able find someone you find desirable to have sex with when you are feeling horny as being roughly equivalent to not being able to find anyone to have sex with when you are feeling horny.

If you doubt how awful it is, let us go back to @wild jade's example. The '5' women who doesn't find sex with a stranger flattering and wonderful. Well, just how wonderful and flattering does anyone imagine that most customer's of prostitutes feel after they visit the prostitute? And yet, enormous numbers of men do it regularly. How can that be, if it is humiliating to have to pay for sex? THAT tells you all you need to know about how horrid it is to not have access to sex. So horrid that many men are willing to debase themselves and pay for sex rather than go without.

Both sides are correct that "their" side is not that great and that the other side doesn't get it. We are all human. We all hurt at times. And we are all looking for someone to help us carry our respective burdens.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

alexm said:


> Having read so many similar posts here, as well as having first-hand experience and IRL anecdotes, I've started to wonder why - typically, and generally - women seem to differ from men so much in regards to sex, sexual touch, etc.


You only started to wonder now? :wink2:



alexm said:


> I just finished reading a post on TAM about a man who's wife dislikes her vagina and breasts being touched - during sex. I've also recently read (more than once) about women who dislike receiving oral sex (not uncommon, mind you). No, these aren't typical or common examples, but - I can't say I've ever read or heard about any men who dislike their penis being touched.
> 
> As sex (typically) involves the genitals, it's hard to fathom a dislike of one's genitals being touched (or licked, or...)


Hmmm...that's maybe because many women (not all), possibly like your (and my) wife, instead of having sex with us, they _*let us*_ have sex with them. Big difference. Also the hornier you are, the less grossed out you are by all things bodily. Which doesn't necessarily mean women are always less horny than men. It' just...a bit different. (I don't think it's sexist to mention the general differences but perhaps others disagree). You will probably notice that HD women will not be that easily grossed out so there might be some correlation between LD and being grossed out by stuff/not wanted to be touched in places.



alexm said:


> Furthermore, there have been, and will continue to be, posts about a strong dislike of bodily secretions, the kind typically associated with sexual activity. In most of these instances, it is women who have a phobia or strong dislike of them.
> 
> I'm not sure there's a question here, and this is more of an observation, but it seems to me that it's women who typically have these body and bodily fluid fears and phobias and the like - typically not men.
> 
> ...


The last paragraph: I think it's more women who are with a relatively new partner who might be more conscious/insecure about their body image. But yes, also generally women are more concerned with their body image because they are more worried about their looks. That's like asking why the sky is blue - it's the way it is and has always been.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

LOL. Eager women are "off-putting". 

Gosh, I wonder why more women don't seem eager. :scratchhead:


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I also never implied it was wanted or highly desirable attention.
> 
> Nevertheless, such a woman who will sleep with anything just to get laid is more rare than such a man. So the assertion still has merit on its face. (unless you think this uncontested generalization is also an artificial construct of ignorant TAMmers)


My point remains that it is not a flattering experience, nor does it mean that unattractive women are somehow attractive to men -- or that looks don't matter for women. All it means is that you see men as desperate and willing to sleep with anything in sight -- even though you yourself and other men here quite clearly say they would run in the opposite direction when faced with a similar situation.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

wild jade said:


> LOL. Eager women are "off-putting".
> 
> 
> 
> Gosh, I wonder why more women don't seem eager. :scratchhead:




You seem to take a personal opinion and change it as if it’s a general fact, then apply it as an opinion of the TAM site as a whole for some reason: I clearly said that *I* found overly eager women off putting, not that ‘overly eager women are off putting’. 
Judging from my male friends, I clearly seem to be in the minority.
I know it’s tempting to blame the men for women not being as eager, but that’s clearly not the case (plus plenty of women are perfectly eager). And I would not openly judge them. I probably just wouldn’t sleep with them.



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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

wild jade said:


> My point remains that it is not a flattering experience, nor does it mean that unattractive women are somehow attractive to men -- or that looks don't matter for women. All it means is that you see men as desperate and willing to sleep with anything in sight -- even though you yourself and other men here quite clearly say they would run in the opposite direction when faced with a similar situation.




Only 2 men. I remember from earlier days in college, the majority of guys were all for ‘easy *****’ (to quote the locker room phrase). And here on the site, most men only compliment women for showing their sexuality (there is eager and there is confidence etc).
It’s a bit of a stretch to apply this to all men: it’s like if I said that blondes are not my type and then you took from it that no wonder that all the blond women have complexes about being blond. 2 people’s personal (probably minority) preference has nothing to do with anything.


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## Handy (Jul 23, 2017)

* WJ
even though you yourself and other men here quite clearly say they would run in the opposite direction when faced with a similar situation.*

Some guys will have any sex they can get. OTH, guys like me might be concerned what the woman wants or does after the sexual encounter. 

My general opinion is there is too much talk about appearance and looks. Kindness and caring trumps looks in long term relationships. BTW I am way over 18 - 21, so maybe i out grew the looks factor.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

wild jade said:


> LOL. Eager women are "off-putting".
> 
> 
> 
> Gosh, I wonder why more women don't seem eager. :scratchhead:




I would actually go further and say that in many cases, this eagerness turned out to be an act in order to please men (that’s where your theory falls apart) and friends who went onto have a relationship with/marry after we all graduated, later found out that those eager women didn’t like sex as much after all...
I think it’s great when women are just...themselves and don’t worry about what guys may or may not think about them.
Probably saves trouble and time later. (Also goes for men of course). 

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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Handy said:


> Kindness and caring trumps looks in long term relationships.


It does and it doesn't, and this will open a whole new can of worms... 

YMMV of course, but the reality is that kindness and caring (and all the other under-the-surface things) only matter for so long. Well, they ALWAYS matter - but when it comes to sexual attraction they don't. Being a nice guy/girl will really only get you so far. It can definitely attract a partner initially (particularly, IME, if said partner has had bad luck previously).

Unfortunately, you need to be attractive, physically, to your partner to have a successful marriage. The quote/unquote "non-shallow" things will only trump looks for so long.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

inmyprime said:


> ...who went onto have a relationship with/marry after we all graduated, later found out that those eager women didn’t like sex as much after all...


This is my marriage in a nutshell. And many others here, and in IRL.

That said, it doesn't prove anything, IMO. There are a whole host of reasons why these things happen (primarily with women it seems).

For example, who's to say my wife didn't genuinely and thoroughly enjoy sex with me during the first couple of years we were together? That she wasn't just "eager to please", she was just _eager_?

Yes, it sometimes happens. Men or women fake it to get a partner. But not always. Perceptions change, tastes change, people change.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

MrsHolland said:


> If you were told on a regular basis while growing up that you were dumb, would you believe your wife if she kept telling you that you are smart? The things that get hammered in as a child, teenager don't just leave peoples minds.


If one lacks introspection to the point of not understanding what they can do, then...

I had a lot of crap hammered into me as a child, on top of poverty, political and societal issues, and so on. If I took any of it seriously I'd be a Walmart greeter by now.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

alexm said:


> This is my marriage in a nutshell. And many others here, and in IRL.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




You mean she was eager first when you met her and then not so much anymore? Have you asked her why?
My wife was generally middle of the road at first (I would say going along with my eagerness). Then bit less eager but last year or so more eager (she’s making a bit of an effort).
I think a bit of plateauing is normal.
I’m talking about extremes (in reply to WJ’s theory that women are not eager because men are put off by it. Both of these things are not correct).


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

I did ask my wife why she was less eager; basically she says she didn’t notice it or if it did happen a bit, perhaps life got in the way. Which I completely understand.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

john117 said:


> If one lacks introspection to the point of not understanding what they can do, then...
> 
> I had a lot of crap hammered into me as a child, on top of poverty, political and societal issues, and so on. If I took any of it seriously I'd be a Walmart greeter by now.




If anything, it should inspire one to be more than what one is told. To prove them wrong!


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

inmyprime said:


> You seem to take a personal opinion and change it as if it’s a general fact, then apply it as an opinion of the TAM site as a whole for some reason: I clearly said that *I* found overly eager women off putting, not that ‘overly eager women are off putting’.
> Judging from my male friends, I clearly seem to be in the minority.
> I know it’s tempting to blame the men for women not being as eager, but that’s clearly not the case (plus plenty of women are perfectly eager). And I would not openly judge them. I probably just wouldn’t sleep with them.
> 
> ...


Let's take a step backwards and put the conversation into a bit of context shall we? 

I am told on this thread that there's something wrong with women. Indeed, that more or less is the premise of the thread. 

And one of those wrong things is that women are obsessed with our looks, even though looks are not important to men. After all a '5' woman can get tons of action even though an '8' man cannot.

So I pipe in and say, well, no, that's not how things are. Looks do matter for women, and a '5' woman is really only getting action from desperate men who are looking around for someone hotter. Then I posed a question. Say you are in that situation. Would you conclude that your looks don't matter? Or would you conclude you were last chance Charlie? 

And the response I get is basically that women won't do that, and if they did it would be a huge turn off. 

And I think to myself, exactly! Most men won't actually sleep with anything in sight, and when they are like that it's a huge turn off. 

Now you want to take me to task and assure me that most men will sleep with anything in sight, and they don't give a crap about "overly eager"?

Or are you just mad because I pointed out that if you find "overly eager" off-putting then it probably explains why you think women don't like sex?


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

wild jade said:


> Let's take a step backwards and put the conversation into a bit of context shall we?
> 
> I am told on this thread that there's something wrong with women. Indeed, that more or less is the premise of the thread.


We shall. I didn't really get from the thread that there is anything supposed to be at all *wrong* with women. I thought Alexm was discussing some *differences* and asking questions.



wild jade said:


> And one of those wrong things is that women are obsessed with our looks, even though looks are not important to men. After all a '5' woman can get tons of action even though an '8' man cannot.


I don't really understand this 5 and 8. What are these numbers for? Is this some kind of rating for hotness? A 5 will be an 8 to someone else and vice versa, it's freaking subjective!



wild jade said:


> So I pipe in and say, well, no, that's not how things are. Looks do matter for women, and a '5' woman is really only getting action from desperate men who are looking around for someone hotter. Then I posed a question. Say you are in that situation. Would you conclude that your looks don't matter? Or would you conclude you were last chance Charlie?


If I was a '5' woman (whatever that means) I would appeal to my self-esteem and conclude that I have no interest whatsoever in sleeping with any of these loser men who are looking for someone 'hotter'. Perhaps the reason they think I am a '5' is because I lower my standards so much, giving out the impression that those desperate numbskulls have any chance with me at all



wild jade said:


> And the response I get is basically that women won't do that, and if they did it would be a huge turn off.
> 
> And I think to myself, exactly! Most men won't actually sleep with anything in sight, and when they are like that it's a huge turn off.
> 
> ...


Hold on a sec. Women liking sex and acting as if they are nymphomaniacs in order to get men interested in them are two very different things. I don't really understand your last sentence: it doesn't really make any sense to me. Perhaps you can elaborate?

Some men are less and others are more discerning when it comes to who they are willing to sleep with. In my experience, most men were less discerning than I was. I couldn't really do ONSs back when I was bit younger so I have no clue how this whole 'scene' works. I know it sounds stupid but I had to fall in love, pursue and conquer the woman I wanted to be with. That woman (now my wife) may be a 5 to someone but she is definitely a 12 to me.

I am also not 'mad'. :smile2: but I thought the thread was something about how men and women *differ* when it comes to sexual touch etc. How did we end up with this ridiculous rating system?


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

The ridiculous rating system came from @Rocky Mountain Yeti. When I suggested that women are judged on our looks, and that this is where we are taught our main value lies, he informed me that this couldn't be true because a 5 woman can get sexual attention.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

alexm said:


> Again, the background reasons are obvious and all-too-common, sadly. What I have a hard time grasping is why these things continue well into marriages with partners who clearly and obviously desire, or even lust after, said woman's body.
> 
> I have a hairy chest, and I've always been conscious of it. I'm certainly not alone in terms of being a man with a hairy chest, but I'm also very aware that it's generally not a desirable trait for most women, though some women LOVE hairy chests. My wife is definitely not one of them, unfortunately. But I don't have a phobia about being shirtless around her, know what I mean?


It's to do with the fact that *you are not your wife* and cannot think like your wife. Conversely, your wife cannot think like you so she will not understand that no matter how much you tell her that, for example, you love giving her oral sex: if she doesn't particularly like oral sex, she will not really be able to relate why you might like it so much, no matter how much you reassure her to the contrary.

But like I said (and I think MEM said it first): the more horny the person is, the less grossed out he or she is about anything to do with the body (your own or your partner's).


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

inmyprime said:


> We shall. I didn't really get from the thread that there is anything supposed to be at all *wrong* with women. I thought Alexm was discussing some *differences* and asking questions.


 @alexm is a decent sort of guy, and so of course he didn't phrase his OP in terms of "what's wrong with women?" 

But the premise of the thread is still essentially why women don't like sex. You can pretend it's not a complaint by calling it a "difference", but it's still a "difference" that is being lamented, not celebrated. 

Personally, I think these discussions would go a lot further, with a lot more understanding achieved, if they weren't always framed as a "woman" thing.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

wild jade said:


> The ridiculous rating system came from @Rocky Mountain Yeti. When I suggested that women are judged on our looks, and that this is where we are taught our main value lies, he informed me that this couldn't be true because a 5 woman can get sexual attention.


I don't understand, either one of our translators is broken. He said this:

_'As to the two black bolded, I have some difficulty resolving these statements. Women do this to themselves. How many times have people said on this site, uncontested I might add, that a woman can be a basic 5 and get all the attention she could ever want, but for a guy to get by on his looks he's got to be an 8 or 9? Of course there are exceptions, but in the aggregate, while guys may look at porn and rave about blondes and big boobs, most will happily take what they can get. For the most part, women are the ones who get to say yes or no--it should be men who are going all Peacock all the time to compete for them.' _

Is it my imagination, or was he trying to pay a compliment? (Meaning that there will be plenty of men lining up to compete for women regardless of her looks). You took away something that is almost completely the opposite; I wonder why that happens so much.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

wild jade said:


> The ridiculous rating system came from @Rocky Mountain Yeti. When I suggested that women are judged on our looks, and that this is where we are taught our main value lies, he informed me that this couldn't be true because a 5 woman can get sexual attention.


You’ve really overextrapolated here. 

I admit the rating system was a clumsy way to make a point, but the point remain that, no matter how much guys talk trash about female looks, in the end if they’re looking for a meaningless hookup they’ll take what they can get and if they’re looking for a meaningful relationship, other qualities become equally important.

So I repeat my assertion that women bring a lot of this stress on themselves. It’s not men writing and buying Cosmo and Vogue. It’s not men worrying about the latest fashions or shoes or hairstyles. Men pay NO attention to these things. Women do this to themselves.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

inmyprime said:


> Is it my imagination, or was he trying to pay a compliment? (Meaning that there will be plenty of men lining up to compete for women regardless of her looks). You took away something that is almost completely the opposite;* I wonder why that happens so much*.


Because every time I say something you make all sorts of assumptions and claims about it that actually have nothing to do with what I said. 

It was a very simple exchange. I said women are taught that our value is in our looks, @Rocky Mountain Yeti said this can't be true because '5' women get all sorts of sexual attention.

Maybe he was complimenting women, I don't know, and it doesn't really matter. I took it as neither a compliment nor an insult. I just pointed out where I think he's wrong. 

Again, simple. And with none of the generalizations, assumptions, or feelings that you keep attributing to me.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

inmyprime said:


> I don't understand, either one of our translators is broken. He said this:
> 
> _'As to the two black bolded, I have some difficulty resolving these statements. Women do this to themselves. How many times have people said on this site, uncontested I might add, that a woman can be a basic 5 and get all the attention she could ever want, but for a guy to get by on his looks he's got to be an 8 or 9? Of course there are exceptions, but in the aggregate, while guys may look at porn and rave about blondes and big boobs, most will happily take what they can get. For the most part, women are the ones who get to say yes or no--it should be men who are going all Peacock all the time to compete for them.' _
> 
> Is it my imagination, or was he trying to pay a compliment? (Meaning that there will be plenty of men lining up to compete for women regardless of her looks). You took away something that is almost completely the opposite; I wonder why that happens so much.


Your translator appears to be fully functional


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

wild jade said:


> @alexm is a decent sort of guy, and so of course he didn't phrase his OP in terms of "what's wrong with women?"
> 
> But the premise of the thread is still essentially why women don't like sex. You can pretend it's not a complaint by calling it a "difference", but it's still a "difference" that is being lamented, not celebrated.
> 
> Personally, I think these discussions would go a lot further, with a lot more understanding achieved, if they weren't always framed as a "woman" thing.


Ok, *that*, I understand ('decent sort of guy' made me chuckle though :smile2

I think it's to do with his wife (and mine seems similar in many ways). There are averages, lets face it. There are more guys who are more obsessed about sex than there are women who obsess about sex. True or false? There are also many women who obsess more about sex than the guy but ut's less typical (which doesn't mean there is anything wrong with it!).

For me, this difference is not a negative thing: it's a fact. In fact, it's a positive thing. To me, obsessing about sex; who comes onto whom more or who is more keen on the other's bodily fluid seems like a waste of mental energy (sorry Alexm, don't mean to minimize your problem) *but I find myself lamenting about exact same things more often than I feel I should*. I can't help it even though my brain is telling me stop being an idiot and realise that *my wife's brain does not think or feel the same things that my brain does*. It doesn't mean she loves me less than I love her.

The fact that we appear to be 'lamenting' about it, helps us come to terms with the fact that sex may not always mean the same thing to our partners as it does to ourselves.
Women have also plenty of things to 'lament' about which are actually (if I try to look at it objectively) kind of more important. Like why the **** do we pay so little attention to them, don't listen or take more interest in their lives or their issues. I mean, come on. That's a cliche older than the world! There's nothing sexist or negative about it.
The problems happen when this small unbalance, becomes a huge imbalance. Then it's a pain in the ass and the marriage is likely to fall apart.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> You’ve really overextrapolated here.
> 
> I admit the rating system was a clumsy way to make a point, but the point remain that, no matter how much guys talk trash about female looks, in the end if they’re looking for a meaningless hookup they’ll take what they can get and if they’re looking for a meaningful relationship, other qualities become equally important.
> 
> So I repeat my assertion that women bring a lot of this stress on themselves. It’s not men writing and buying Cosmo and Vogue. It’s not men worrying about the latest fashions or shoes or hairstyles. Men pay NO attention to these things. Women do this to themselves.


Actually, men do pay attention to these things. Maybe not Cosmo or Vogue, but research does show that they rank looks as critically important in choosing a mate. You can dismiss the "trash talk" but it actually is grounded in real sentiment a lot of the time.

That said, I agree that men didn't just do this to women. Women have learned their lessons all too well, and play an equal role in reinforcing this idea that women's prime value lies in looks.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

wild jade said:


> Because every time I say something you make all sorts of assumptions and claims about it that actually have nothing to do with what I said.
> 
> It was a very simple exchange. I said women are taught that our value is in our looks, @Rocky Mountain Yeti said this can't be true because '5' women get all sorts of sexual attention.
> 
> ...


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

wild jade said:


> I said women are taught that our value is in our looks,


But with that very statement (which came from you), you are setting somebody up for a fall! Do you not see how this statement is very difficult to address, especially when it comes from a woman?

I am not qualified to disagree with you on this (because of...penis) but it is completely not how I was brought up in valuing women (on their looks), or people in general, for that matter.
This is what I believe Rocky Mountain Yeti meant when he said that 'women do it to themselves'.

I agree there are some men who may be more superficial and judge a person on their looks alone, but would you want to engage with somebody like that? (not to mention even sleep wth them).

I try very hard not to attribute anything (I only quote you directly). But if you make a statement that appears to be derogatory to women and then complain about TAM being 100% sexist to women...well, it becomes very difficult to have a conversation because I am not sure where you are coming from.
I mean, there are also decent men out there, you know? :wink2: Not just 'sort of decent'.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

@inmyprime

Fair enough. I don't want to take away from your lamenting time!

And maybe there is nothing more to be learned than your wife thinks differently than you.

I still think these discussions would get much further and lead to more understanding if they weren't always framed as a "woman" thing.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

wild jade said:


> Actually, men do pay attention to these things. Maybe not Cosmo or Vogue, but research does show that they rank looks as critically important in choosing a mate. You can dismiss the "trash talk" but it actually is grounded in real sentiment a lot of the time.
> 
> That said, I agree that men didn't just do this to women. Women have learned their lessons all too well, and play an equal role in reinforcing this idea that women's prime value lies in looks.


You keep missing what I’m saying

I never said men don’t pay attention to looks. I did Pont out that women obsess over looks in ways men don’t notice. We like nice hair for instance but we don’t care if it’s the latest style from some designer stylist. Ditto clothes and makeup. My point is that many women obsess over appearance related minutia that most of us Neanderthals would never notice. 

And as previously noted, it’s all highly subjective. One mans meh is another mans beauty, and that’s based on inherent characteristics, not artificial enhancements. If you don’t have the basic features that attract me, no amount of make up will change that. Conversely, if I find your natural state attractive, no amount of make up is necessary


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

wild jade said:


> @inmyprime
> 
> Fair enough. I don't want to take away from your lamenting time!
> 
> ...


Happy to lament with you about men, if that helps :wink2:
It's just that our wives happen to be women on this occasion. So while it's not strictly a 'woman thing', it's a spouse thing, more accurately


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

For the record, I called @alexm a decent sort, not "sort of decent". Very different!

As for women being taught that our value is in our looks -- this isn't derogatory, it's just the way it is. This is changing, but it's still true.

@inmyprime I'm glad that you pointed out that you weren't taught to view women this way -- and I know that there can be much more to attraction than looks.

But the whole reason for bringing up looks in the first place was to show that in fact women do face a lot of pressure in this area, and this is one reason why women tend to have more body image issues in general. 

And knowing that there are guys who will sleep with anything they can get their hands on isn't going to solve that problem. 

Knowing that their husbands don't really care about looks might help some -- but it's tough to believe in a world that's all about looks.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

wild jade said:


> For the record, I called @alexm a decent sort, not "sort of decent". Very different!


Sorry, I misread!



wild jade said:


> As for women being taught that our value is in our looks -- this isn't derogatory, it's just the way it is. This is changing, but it's still true.
> 
> @inmyprime I'm glad that you pointed out that you weren't taught to view women this way -- and I know that there can be much more to attraction than looks.
> 
> ...


I wouldn't say 'don't really care about looks'. Just that looks are first of all *subjective* and secondly, don't mean *everything*. 
There is also objective beauty too (to some extent) but that doesn't mean one will be automatically attracted to them. There are guys who i can say are objectively handsome but there is no attraction, same for my wife: she may find a woman beautiful. 

Attraction is more complicated than that. Imperfections can be precisely the things that are attractive (or endearing). Also if you are in a relationship with someone, it's the whole package. Looks play a part but not the whole part.

I don't know if I would go as far as Rocky Mountain Yeti that only women are responsible for the pressures they put onto themselves about their looks (though he probably means at the very extreme end which is probably true). It probably is to some extent a result of society which used to be more male dominated in the past (less so now). 

Plus I can see how looks can play a part when you meet someone for the very first time but to me this is almost of no value discussing or stressing about at all, because this stage in an encounter is of little to no consequence whatsoever: either you get to know someone better and discover other qualities that may form a more negative or a more positive impression overall or you just move on with your own lives. In short, looks are kind of superficial and it's a shame if women do feel they need to stress out about them too much (if that's in fact what they do which, i believe, you assert is the case).


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> You keep missing what I’m saying
> 
> I never said men don’t pay attention to looks. I did Pont out that women obsess over looks in ways men don’t notice. We like nice hair for instance but we don’t care if it’s the latest style from some designer stylist. Ditto clothes and makeup. My point is that many women obsess over appearance related minutia that most of us Neanderthals would never notice.
> 
> And as previously noted, it’s all highly subjective. One mans meh is another mans beauty, and that’s based on inherent characteristics, not artificial enhancements. If you don’t have the basic features that attract me, no amount of make up will change that. Conversely, if I find your natural state attractive, no amount of make up is necessary


How was I missing what you were saying? Wasn't I just agreeing with you?

Yes, there are some women who are into fashion and spend quite a lot of time on their appearance. Not sure why it's so important I acknowledge this? :scratchhead:

Point being, to my mind, is that body image is a huge issue for women, and in our lovely looks obsessed world is becoming much more of an issue for men. 

So some of this helps explain why we have some of our hangups and insecurities.


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

john117 said:


> If one lacks introspection to the point of not understanding what they can do, then...
> 
> I had a lot of crap hammered into me as a child, on top of poverty, political and societal issues, and so on. If I took any of it seriously I'd be a Walmart greeter by now.


Bravo Sir John but it means ****** all. Many people are affected by a constant, underlying tone of negativity or judgement against them. Not everyone is able to use it to their advantage and be stronger.


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## Handy (Jul 23, 2017)

Women and looks or style:

I was reading a dating forum where women were discussing what to wear on a first or second date. The discussion was about which style of shoe to wear (3 styles), which scarf to wear (solid, paisley, or something else I don't remember), and pants VS a skirt. I quit reading when this one woman was going over what color goes along with what accessory.

I replied saying I thought comfort or what best fir the date agenda was important in shoe choice and suggested the guy wouldn't notice between a "mary jane" style or what ever the other options were based on what I thought was important or in this case not important.

I won't go over the rest of the clothing or make up because to me what was being discussed was over thinking and and making dating more work than it needed to be. I don't hear any guy asking another man what shoes go with which pair of pants but most guys do try to not wear clashing wardrobe items.

OTH, I have heard some guys say or think the gal will be more interested in him if he has an attractive car. 

So some genders thinks some things matter more than the other gender to some extent.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*If a woman’s primary, but seemingly hollow interest in me lies within, say the precepts of the appearance or value of my car, my house, or of my bank account or finstats, and not remotely in my heart ~ then I’d much rather immediately abort my search in looking for yet another Mrs. Arb!

I really don’t want or need that type of woman!*


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

inmyprime said:


> It's to do with the fact that *you are not your wife* and cannot think like your wife. Conversely, your wife cannot think like you so she will not understand that no matter how much you tell her that, for example, you love giving her oral sex: if she doesn't particularly like oral sex, she will not really be able to relate why you might like it so much, no matter how much you reassure her to the contrary.
> 
> But like I said (and I think MEM said it first): the more horny the person is, the less grossed out he or she is about anything to do with the body (your own or your partner's).


You are right about not being the other person, for sure.

re: oral sex. It's not always about "not liking" it. For example, my wife likes it very much. What she does not like is that it's one-sided. I can tell you that with utter confidence, because she has told me so. This includes oral sex on her, with no expectation of reciprocation. I have heard this several times from other people here as well.

Which brings us full-circle to the topic, I think. Because, perhaps, my wife was conditioned that sexual activity is a tit-for-tat exchange (which is vaguely IS, imo, but that's another thread...) she is generally unable to accept something like oral sex on her, as she feels like she "owes me one". It doesn't matter if I tell her this is not the case, she has been conditioned by others to believe this.

And this is my wife. She has not had romantic or sexual contact with anyone but me in ~10 years, yet this conditioning still exists.

In regards to @Wildjade 's take that this thread is about "what's wrong with women?" - no. Not my intention. I am interested in discussing why this conditioning seems to affect women more than men, predominantly. Men seem to be more in tune with what their current partner is saying, rather than what others have said in the past.

Like I said earlier (and it's a small-scale example, but I have more) - I have a hairy chest. My ex wife, as well as other women I've been with or dated, did not like this. My ex wife, in fact, was somewhat negative about it. My current wife does not have a "thing" for chest hair, but she has never been negative about it, and in fact, quite the opposite. Because my wife is the one that matters, I no longer have any sort of stigma in regards to it. The other people's opinions no longer matter, in other words.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

wild jade said:


> @alexm is a decent sort of guy, and so of course he didn't phrase his OP in terms of "what's wrong with women?"
> 
> But the premise of the thread is still essentially why women don't like sex. You can pretend it's not a complaint by calling it a "difference", but it's still a "difference" that is being lamented, not celebrated.
> 
> Personally, I think these discussions would go a lot further, with a lot more understanding achieved, if they weren't always framed as a "woman" thing.


Thank you 

This thread is more about why married women don't always embrace sex with their husbands because of past stigmas, conditioning, negative experiences, and/or current views on their own bodies - which are no longer an issue with their current partners. Not just the blanket "why don't women like sex?"

It's hard for me to fathom why a person would arrive at the conclusion that they are not "good enough" for their spouse/partner/husband if said person is throwing themselves at them, complimenting them, visibly turned on (if you catch my drift), etc etc etc.

We men certainly have our issues with self-image, things like body hair, penis size (ugh), the size of our guts, and whatever else our bodies look like, or become. But when push comes to shove, we're the first ones getting naked to have sex with our wives and otherwise not being overly concerned with that sort of thing. It doesn't prevent us from having sex with our wives, in other words. You don't really hear men turning down their wives for sex because they're thinking "ah, I don't really feel that good about my body right now".


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

inmyprime said:


> I don't understand, either one of our translators is broken. He said this:
> 
> _'As to the two black bolded, I have some difficulty resolving these statements. Women do this to themselves. How many times have people said on this site, uncontested I might add, that a woman can be a basic 5 and get all the attention she could ever want, but for a guy to get by on his looks he's got to be an 8 or 9? Of course there are exceptions, but in the aggregate, while guys may look at porn and rave about blondes and big boobs, most will happily take what they can get. For the most part, women are the ones who get to say yes or no--it should be men who are going all Peacock all the time to compete for them.' _
> 
> Is it my imagination, or was he trying to pay a compliment? (Meaning that there will be plenty of men lining up to compete for women regardless of her looks). You took away something that is almost completely the opposite; I wonder why that happens so much.


Is it a compliment, though?

At the end of the day (to me, anyway), it reeks of "you'll do, I just want to get laid". Or just as bad, the man gauging that he has a better chance with a "5".

The reality is that you have just as much chance with an 8 as you do a 5. The difference is that the person doing the chasing has more confidence the quote/unquote "lower" they shoot for.

Interestingly enough, a woman who is perceived as drop-dead gorgeous and has visible confidence, is not likely to be approached by too many men - despite what we may think. Many men will decide right away that they have no chance, so why bother.

When the genders are reversed, the opposite often proves true. A drop-dead gorgeous man with confidence will have women (of all kinds) drawn to him.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

alexm said:


> You are right about not being the other person, for sure.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




But why do you believe your wife has been ‘conditioned’ by others to believe things? My wife hasn’t been with other guys sexually and she has similar preconceptions. I also offer her oral with no expectation but I’m not sure she buys it completely. Perhaps she thinks that while I might mean it, it would still be nicer to receive something back.
Plus maybe she is not always as keen to receive oral as I’m keen giving it to her (which i think might be closer to truth). I think these things are just not as high on a priority list to either think about or do anything about for them. She does seem to like it a lot every time I do it so that’s where the disconnect happens. 
However it’s probably like me going to the gym (I think this analogy was done before): it’s a bit of a chore but once I do the work out it’s quite enjoyable.
Whereas for sex for me...I would kill to go to the ‘gym’. And if I don’t get to work out for more than a week a i start going positively nuts and doubt all kinds of ****.
It’s annoying but it’s life.



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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

alexm said:


> Thank you
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Are these past stigmas really to blame though ? (Is there proof that these even exist?) Or is it just another way to ‘excuse’ our wives why they just don’t think or feel about us the same way we feel about them sexually? Lets face it, any stigma is pretty easy to overcome if you just can’t wait to hump your spouse...That’s not necessarily a negative thing. (Not always wanting to hump). It’s just...different.


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## toblerone (Oct 18, 2016)

inmyprime said:


> Are there actually women who 'just want to get laid'?


OF COURSE THERE ARE.

Just because a chick really wants to get laid doesn't make her desperate either. 

Just like guys can do as well!



inmyprime said:


> Are these past stigmas really to blame though ? (Is there proof that these even exist?)


The stigmas exist for some people. They might be to blame. Some are just excuses though. It's a case-by-case thing.

The thing is, the internet is extremely self-selecting for people who aren't getting laid on the regluar.


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## Notself (Aug 25, 2017)

I think the question, at base, is "Why don't women want sex as much as men do?" Which is provably true on a general level, though I've seen many women posters here argue that they are very different from the stereotype and this is also often true. I have two answers to the question, one factual, and one that is just my opinion.

The fact is that testosterone is the "horny hormone" and women just have less of it. If the hormone levels were somehow permanently reversed and women had more testosterone, then women would be the gender that wanted sex more often. There's not much to argue about here. Testosterone also does freaky things to brain chemistry - for example, fetishes and paraphilias are practically nonexistent in women as compared to the male population.

My personal opinion, outside of testosterone, about why women generally don't want sex as much as men do? Abuse. Women and girls are sexually abused at probably roughly twice the rate as boys and men are (this is a "best guess" since most sexual abuse across all genders is super under-reported). Sexual abuse in most cases leads to, at best, being conflicted about the role of sex in one's life, and at worst one is entirely sexually shut down. Mixed with less testosterone, it makes sense that many if not most women care way less about sex than the average man does. I've got no real source for this opinion except from hearsay and personal experience. I grew up with a very high sex drive, but after enduring years of abuse and trauma from my ex, now struggle to handle anything that has to do with sex in my own life. (I am male, btw.)


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

This is something I always wanted to ask about: if it’s all hormones, can hormone therapy not help? Or are the side effects too great? Or is the a ‘horny’ pill that can be taken?


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## Notself (Aug 25, 2017)

inmyprime said:


> This is something I always wanted to ask about: if it’s all hormones, can hormone therapy not help? Or are the side effects too great? Or is the a ‘horny’ pill that can be taken?


Sure it can help - if you like your ladies with large muscles, deep voices, and lots of facial and body hair! Women who take anabolic steroids, a kind of testosterone, to build muscle end up with much higher sex drives. Likewise, FtM trans folks who take extra testosterone also uniformly report higher sex drives.

But if you like your women, well, feminine, hormone therapy might not be advised.


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## toblerone (Oct 18, 2016)

Surely there's some happy medium.


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## Notself (Aug 25, 2017)

toblerone said:


> Surely there's some happy medium.


Hormones and body chemistry are very particular things and even now it isn't perfectly understood exactly how they work to do what they do. Pharmacology, unfortunately, can still be more of an art than a science. Hell, we've been throwing antidepressants at people for years without knowing why they work and what they exactly do in your brain.

You're not the first person to say this, but in practice it's very tricky and most people don't want to be guinea pigs for something that could go extremely wrong.


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## toblerone (Oct 18, 2016)

I nominate my wife to volunteer!


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## Notself (Aug 25, 2017)

Sorry to follow up on my own post, but I wanted to tell the story of "Pink Viagra." A drug company spent a long time developing a new type of antidepressant. It did not succeed, showing no benefit to human subjects. This isn't that uncommon; tons of money is sunk annually into failed medications.

The difference is that the company refused to accept this failure and decided to market it as a libido-enhancer for women. Problem is, it failed at that too. Studies showed it worked maybe slightly better than a placebo. But the company decided to go political, basically shaming the FDA into approving it because, hey, men have Viagra, so women deserve some kind of pill too. But the difference is that Viagra actually works; it acts in a very specific way physically in the body that helps men and doesn't do anything for women. "Pink Viagra" doesn't seem to do anything much physically or psychologically and very few shrinks or doctors will prescribe it.

Billions with a "b" of dollars have been spent trying to find a female version of Viagra with no success, and the reason is because women just straight-up don't want to have sex as much as men do, due to hormones (provable) and psychology (probably true, even if my own theory of it being the result of sexual abuse may not be).


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

:redcard:For a minute there I was going to clap, thought a women was admitting the obvious, then I checked your profile. :slap:


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## Notself (Aug 25, 2017)

anonmd said:


> :redcard:For a minute there I was going to clap, thought a women was admitting the obvious, then I checked your profile. :slap:


Sorry. For the record, I've never heard any women admit the obvious either.


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## Handy (Jul 23, 2017)

* Alexm

Which brings us full-circle to the topic, I think. Because, perhaps, my wife was conditioned that sexual activity is a tit-for-tat exchange (which is vaguely IS, imo, but that's another thread...) she is generally unable to accept something like oral sex on her, as she feels like she "owes me one"*

I can say this "tit-for-tat exchange" also applies to some men.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Handy said:


> I can say this "tit-for-tat exchange" also applies to some men.


I don't think it is so much a gender thing. I think sex almost inevitably becomes a "tit-for-tat exchange" when there is a habitual mismatch that consistently runs in one direction.

The LD knows the HD wants more sex than the LD does, so they need a mechanism for deciding when to say "yes". Easy to decide that "have they been 'good' enough to deserve 'extra'" is a fairly typical "sorting tool". Similarly, the HD knows the LD is reluctant to consent based on their own desire, so the HD resorts to "earning" more sex by treating the LD particularly well.

Same mechanism occurs within sex. Many people try to avoid being in debt. The don't like "owing" their partner. So they don't like when their spouse "gives" them an orgasm, because they don't like feeling obliged to try to give their partner one in return. They may not dislike sex, but they dislike the feeling of obligation.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Notself said:


> Hormones and body chemistry are very particular things and even now it isn't perfectly understood exactly how they work to do what they do. Pharmacology, unfortunately, can still be more of an art than a science. Hell, we've been throwing antidepressants at people for years without knowing why they work and what they exactly do in your brain.
> 
> You're not the first person to say this, but in practice it's very tricky and most people don't want to be guinea pigs for something that could go extremely wrong.




Well, if my wife grew a small hairy penis for the sake of being more keen of having more frequent sex with me, i might be ok with that...
Ok, that was a joke, in case the feminists among us don’t have a sense of humour. 
I might be ok if she grew a penis even if we didn’t have more regular sex 
I blame the wine.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Actually, what hormone is produced during pregnancy? (Can’t be testosterone). In the third trimester, my wife would often turn into a sexual animal: sometimes ‘molesting’ me in the middle of the night for no reason and sometimes against my will. How much I miss that.
There was nothing more appealing to me than when my wife used to use me for her sexual pleasure, selfishly, with otherwise complete disregard to me! It sounds wrong but I miss it. It’s amazing all the things that hormones can do...they seem to literally dictate the majority of our desires it seems.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

/


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Some men. I hate the fake look. I much prefer women who look natural, who wear comfortable shoes and functional clothes. Even if I'm just thinking of sex, I want a woman who looks like she is up for anything, not someone who looks fragile, or as if they will have to spend a ton of time getting ready.





notmyrealname4 said:


> snip
> 
> Men LOVE LOVE LOVE hyper-groomed, heavily made-up women, who wear "****ty" clothes and teeter around in 4"-6" heels.
> 
> .


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

How can someone not like smell of vagina! That’s unheard of. It’s like not liking taste of ice cream . Crazy! ;-)


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> How can someone not like smell of vagina! That’s unheard of. It’s like not liking taste of ice cream . Crazy! ;-)


There's research that says we most love the smell of someone with completely different genetics from ourselves (seeking biological fitness for procreation). So it follows that we would be most repelled by something with our exact genetics - ourselves.


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## Handy (Jul 23, 2017)

* Notmyrealname
I don't think men can begin to appreciate the "shame" factor that women have over the general smell and fluids that come with being a sexually mature female. If you really wanna know, meander down the "feminine hygiene" aisle at the drug or grocery store and check out all the washes, and sprays and "Fresh Breeze" scented napkins etc. etc. And then you've got the Brazilian (complete) pubic waxing, labiaplasty, and dyes to make your lips pinker, even affixable rhinestones to bedazzle your "va jay jay". Yeah, there's a lot of serious conditioning we take in that we are basically disgusting, and we need to remedy that situation.*

Maybe a lot of that feminine shame is because of advertisers what to sell products by convincing women they need things to be socially acceptable. Lets say 1/3 of feminine shame is because of advertising. Yes, read feminine pain reliever product labels and see the exact same ingredients as the normal pain relief products and wonder why people fall for the "pink line" of pain relievers.

Lysol was once promoted as a douche so you would feel "fresh." It sounds crazy to me.

Just for the record, the items on your above list, only two matter to me. Pads/tampons and lipstick, plus soap and water which wasn't on your list. A compatible partner that is pleasant to be around works wonders for me.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Hopeful Cynic said:


> There's research that says we most love the smell of someone with completely different genetics from ourselves (seeking biological fitness for procreation). So it follows that we would be most repelled by something with our exact genetics - ourselves.




If I could procreate with myself (even just to kill time), I would not be completely averse to the idea  Perhaps I reached a new level of narcissism (with 0 genetic diversity)


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Holdingontoit said:


> I don't think it is so much a gender thing. I think sex almost inevitably becomes a "tit-for-tat exchange" when there is a habitual mismatch that consistently runs in one direction.
> .....
> 
> Same mechanism occurs within sex. Many people try to avoid being in debt. The don't like "owing" their partner. So they don't like when their spouse "gives" them an orgasm, because they don't like feeling obliged to try to give their partner one in return. They may not dislike sex, but they dislike the feeling of obligation.


It comes down to personality.

It IS tit-for-tat, yes, but not in the same way as if you owed someone money. At least it's not supposed to be like that.

Ideally, you want it to be "it's my turn to give you X, Y or Z!".

You know when you go out for beers with your buddy, and you say "I'll get the next round"? Yeah, that.

Your buddy "owes" you a round, but (depending on how good friends you are!) you may lose track and just not worry about it. In other words, it's usually almost even.

Some people just hate the feeling of owing somebody something, so they're reluctant to accept too much, or outright adamant that they don't take anything "for free".


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

uhtred said:


> Some men. I hate the fake look. I much prefer women who look natural, who wear comfortable shoes and functional clothes. Even if I'm just thinking of sex, I want a woman who looks like she is up for anything, not someone who looks fragile, or as if they will have to spend a ton of time getting ready.


Same.
@notmyrealname4

I think less men than one would think like the dressed-to-the-nines, makeup wearing woman. It's more of an occasional thing, IMO. Same when men wear a nicely tailored suit. Most women like it when their husbands dress up. It's just something out of the norm, I suppose.

As for grooming - it's important no matter who you are, your gender, what you look like. It's something that's important to most people.

Most women I've come across do not like an unkempt mess of pubic hair on men any more than many men don't like the same on a woman. Nor do most women (well, ANY women!) like back or shoulder hair on men, or unkempt eyebrows, or, or, or.

Yes, it's true that the female grooming aisle is much bigger in stores than the one for men, but nonetheless, we are also 'expected' to keep up appearances.

Funny story - I'm a pretty hairy guy. Not excessively so, but more than the average dude. It took my wife about 5 years to figure out that I trimmed or shaved pretty much everywhere. She just assumed that was my natural state. What is even funnier, is that my ex wife did not like body hair at all, and let me know about it. For her, I did not trim or shave anything for the 14 years I was with her. I only started doing that once I became single!

Is it even, between men and women? Absolutely not. But, the reality is that we DO have similar expectations and pressures to look a certain way. Being a hairy guy, I have yet to come across a woman that LIKES it (they exist, however, I know that). My wife does not care. She doesn't dislike it, let alone hate it. But she is pretty much the only woman I've been with that hasn't made even the slightest negative comment about it.

In terms of porn habits, I would venture a guess that most men do not, in fact, gravitate towards quote/unquote "perfect" women. The reality is that the bulk of professionally produced porn simply HAS those types of women (and for the most part, men) in them. However, in this day and age of free porn everywhere you look, not to mention amateur porn, it's not nearly as prevalent as one would think. I don't watch a lot of porn, but if I do, the women are what I would call "normal" (ie. natural). For most of us men who watch porn (either a lot, or just a little bit) it's not simply about what the person looks like, rather it's the fantasy of watching a woman/couple who is eager, willing and uninhibited. THAT is what is sexy, IMO. Not your body.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

alexm said:


> Thank you
> 
> This thread is more about why married women don't always embrace sex with their husbands because of past stigmas, conditioning, negative experiences, and/or current views on their own bodies - which are no longer an issue with their current partners. Not just the blanket "why don't women like sex?"
> 
> ...


I used to date this guy who was so insecure about his package that we never had sex. That relationship didn't last too long, of course, but he was so totally afraid to get naked with me that he drove me away with his insecurity. Nothing I said to him made any difference at all. 

Things like performance anxiety are also a whole lot more common than most men seem willing to talk about. My husband has ED and let me tell you that while it's true that he doesn't care a whit about his looks, he has a lot of "I don't feel like it" moments. 

Point being that men aren't always just the simple always ready for sex types that they love to paint themselves as.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

Notself said:


> I
> The fact is that testosterone is the "horny hormone" and women just have less of it. If the hormone levels were somehow permanently reversed and women had more testosterone, then women would be the gender that wanted sex more often. There's not much to argue about here. Testosterone also does freaky things to brain chemistry - for example, fetishes and paraphilias are practically nonexistent in women as compared to the male population.


Testosterone is the horny hormone .... for men. Women have a different set of hormones, and let me tell you that they too produce horny.

Your facts, my friend, are askew.

I do agree, though, that abuse plays a role in many women's view of and enjoyment of sex.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

My husband also likes the "natural" look. What amuses me about this most is what's considered "natural" these days.


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## Tiggy! (Sep 9, 2016)

wild jade said:


> Testosterone is the horny hormone .... for men. *Women have a different set of hormones, and let me tell you that they too produce horny*.
> 
> Your facts, my friend, are askew.
> 
> I do agree, though, that abuse plays a role in many women's view of and enjoyment of sex.


Yep, Estrogen (mainly Estradiol) and Progesterone have a massive impact on a womans sex drive.

Also women are more sensitive to Androgens than mens.


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## Notself (Aug 25, 2017)

wild jade said:


> Testosterone is the horny hormone .... for men. Women have a different set of hormones, and let me tell you that they too produce horny.
> 
> Your facts, my friend, are askew.


Not really. Female hormones may be somewhat horny-making for *some* women, but certainly not to the level that testosterone is. Female bodybuilders and FtM trans people are solid proof of that.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

wild jade said:


> I used to date this guy who was so insecure about his package that we never had sex. That relationship didn't last too long, of course, but he was so totally afraid to get naked with me that he drove me away with his insecurity. Nothing I said to him made any difference at all.
> 
> Things like performance anxiety are also a whole lot more common than most men seem willing to talk about. My husband has ED and let me tell you that while it's true that he doesn't care a whit about his looks, he has a lot of "I don't feel like it" moments.
> 
> Point being that men aren't always just the simple always ready for sex types that they love to paint themselves as.



Not always but the majority are though. At least, statistically. Perhaps not so much ready, as more keen/needy for sex. (Also first stage performance anxieties does not mean one is not constantly keen on sex...).
Your phrasing also implies a kind of deception (‘that they love to paint themselves as’). There’s nothing really to gain by ‘painting’ ourselves as keen on sex and not actually being that keen. It doesn’t get us any more sex! (Probably the opposite in fact).


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

Notself said:


> Not really. Female hormones may be somewhat horny-making for *some* women, but certainly not to the level that testosterone is. Female bodybuilders and FtM trans people are solid proof of that.


No, actually, they're not. At all.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

So this is basically horny men and horny women shouting at each other, "NO, I'M TOTALLY HORNIER BECAUSE HORMONES!"

Neat.


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## Notself (Aug 25, 2017)

wild jade said:


> No, actually, they're not. At all.


OK ... Why not?


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

Notself said:


> OK ... Why not?


Why do they?

It's true, it's common for people taking testosterone supplements to experience a spike in sex drive, but this certainly isn't universal, and the effect is usually temporary.

Female body builders don't even necessarily get a boost in their muscle mass or performance, although FTM do become male. And as far as I know, there is zero evidence that over the long term either group has a higher sex drive than the average woman. 

Same is also true for men, btw. There are lots of high testosterone, low libido men out there, so sex drive cannot simply be explained in terms of testosterone levels even for guys.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

inmyprime said:


> There’s nothing really to gain by ‘painting’ ourselves as keen on sex and not actually being that keen. It doesn’t get us any more sex! (Probably the opposite in fact).


It may not lead to more sex, but there's actually quite a lot to gain.

The theme of this thread is that women are more "susceptible" to conditioning. I submit that it's just that the conditioning shows itself in different ways.


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## Notself (Aug 25, 2017)

Well, everything I've ever read about FtM transsexuals has said flatly that once on hormones, their sex drives go through the roof. All the transmen I've personally known have also said the same thing. 

So I dunno. I guess if you want to deny the lived experience of many thousands of people, that's your right. At least you don't create policy like Mary P. Koss did.

Obviously there's more to the story than hormones, as you are correct about the existence of high-testosterone, low-libido men. (This is where my theory of abuse comes in, actually.) But it doesn't affect my premise that IN GENERAL men have higher sex drives than women. It simply boggles my mind that women can continually deny this general statement of fact, as the evidence is absolutely everywhere.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

wild jade said:


> It may not lead to more sex, but there's actually quite a lot to gain.


Like what?? If I was a woman, I would find it very off putting if a guy kept whining about their ****ty sex life. In fact the more I write, the less attracted I feel towards myself 





wild jade said:


> The theme of this thread is that women are more "susceptible" to conditioning. I submit that it's just that the conditioning shows itself in different ways.



It may be a theme, but it’s not really a theme I particularly agree with. There is really no proof that this is the case beyond hearsay.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

I would like to understand why lack of sex has not only physiological but also psychological effects on men (what i observed on TAM) if a lot of it is to do with hormones. Maybe for another thread. 


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## Notself (Aug 25, 2017)

inmyprime said:


> I would like to understand why lack of sex has not only physiological but also psychological effects on men (what i observed on TAM) if a lot of it is to do with hormones.


Because the mind and the body are one unit.


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## Tiggy! (Sep 9, 2016)

Notself said:


> *Well, everything I've ever read about FtM transsexuals has said flatly that once on hormones, their sex drives go through the roof. All the transmen I've personally known have also said the same thing.
> 
> So I dunno. I guess if you want to deny the lived experience of many thousands of people, that's your right. At least you don't create policy like Mary P. Koss did.*


A women given HRT using Estrogen sex drive also significantly increases. Testosterone is a sex hormone, not the sex hormone.
Acknowledging the hormones that play roles increase/decrease a females sex is not denying the experiences of transsexuals.



> Obviously there's more to the story than hormones, as you are correct about the existence of high-testosterone, low-libido men. (This is where my theory of abuse comes in, actually.) But it doesn't affect my premise that IN GENERAL men have higher sex drives than women. *It simply boggles my mind that women can continually deny this general statement of fact, as the evidence is absolutely everywhere*


Just explaining what hormones that are involved in a females sex drive, because focusing on testosterone gives a inaccurate picture. Our hormones aren't a watered down version of men's.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Not surprisingly sex drive in humans is extremely complex. There can be a strong statistical correlation with various hormones, but with still enough scatter that hormone levels themselves are a poor predictor of libido. 




Tiggy! said:


> A women given HRT using Estrogen sex drive also significantly increases. Testosterone is a sex hormone, not the sex hormone.
> Acknowledging the hormones that play roles increase/decrease a females sex is not denying the experiences of transsexuals.
> 
> 
> ...


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Notself said:


> Because the mind and the body are one unit.


My body sometimes has a mind of its own.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

Notself said:


> Well, everything I've ever read about FtM transsexuals has said flatly that once on hormones, their sex drives go through the roof. All the transmen I've personally known have also said the same thing.
> 
> So I dunno. I guess if you want to deny the lived experience of many thousands of people, that's your right. At least you don't create policy like Mary P. Koss did.
> 
> Obviously there's more to the story than hormones, as you are correct about the existence of high-testosterone, low-libido men. (This is where my theory of abuse comes in, actually.) But it doesn't affect my premise that IN GENERAL men have higher sex drives than women. It simply boggles my mind that women can continually deny this general statement of fact, as the evidence is absolutely everywhere.


I am not denying the lived experience of many thousands of people, I am revealing that the picture is much more complex than the one you paint. And THAT also reflects the lived experience of many thousands of people.

Yet you want to deny that. Why?

There is a great pile of evidence that challenges your blanket statements and it too is worth being part of the discussion.


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