# Stop Thinking you Can "Nice" Your Way out of Infidelity



## carolinadreams (Nov 30, 2012)

This is a recent, persistent theme particularly when the wayward spouse is the wife and the betrayed is the husband.

People seem to think that if they are nice enough, persistent enough, if they just keeping eating crap long enough their spouse will take pity on their poor pathetic self, and give them some crumbs of love.

Stop it.

If you want to save your marriages stop it.

You don't have to be an an uber alpha *******, but you do have to be a determined man, who had boundaries and enforces them, and be completely unwilling to tolerate disrespectful treatment.

Time and time again, the passive, the tolerant will get used, abused, and discarded. Embrace respect for yourself and you may have a chance. Go the route of Mr. Nice Guy and you are guaranteeing misery for yourself.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

carolinadreams said:


> This is a recent, persistent theme particularly when the wayward spouse is the wife and the betrayed is the husband.
> 
> People seem to think that if they are nice enough, persistent enough, if they just keeping eating crap long enough their spouse will take pity on their poor pathetic self, and give them some crumbs of love.
> 
> ...


Couldn't have said it better.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ironman (Feb 6, 2013)

carolinadreams said:


> This is a recent, persistent theme particularly when the wayward spouse is the wife and the betrayed is the husband.
> 
> People seem to think that if they are nice enough, persistent enough, if they just keeping eating crap long enough their spouse will take pity on their poor pathetic self, and give them some crumbs of love.
> 
> ...


The guys you are referring to tend to be the White Knight personality type. It's part of their being, it's who they are. Very beta-ish. They tend to "not get it" until it's too late. I've seen a few redeemed on these forums, but far more just get used.

* Of course, this only applies when they married a cheater-type.


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

tom67 said:


> Couldn't have said it better.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


OK - you both go to my last post on my thread "After the lies - their connection fully revealed" are unanimously saying that what I wrote is an example of a passive / tolerant / nice guy?


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## carolinadreams (Nov 30, 2012)

Horizon said:


> OK - you both go to my last post on my thread "After the lies - their connection fully revealed" are unanimously saying that what I wrote is an example of a passive / tolerant / nice guy?


You sound deeply disillusioned and frustrated more than passive. 

Don't get me wrong I'm not trying to make a thread to "Bash the Betas", by the time they are here they've likely been bashed enough for a lifetime.

People are stubborn though and think they can keep doing the same thing over and over again, just better and with more feeling, and get the change they want to see.


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## MovingAhead (Dec 27, 2012)

Horizon,

I'm saying it. You want to be nice to her because she is your wife and you want to understand what you could have done so wrong as to mess up your marriage. You are being a passive wimp... I was too... I was trying to be the better 'adult male'... Problem was I wasn't being the better man!

A man days dammit the crap you did, that was wrong as hell and I don't want to here any of your damned excuses because truly they are all full of crap. Now you can decide if you want to lay here feeling sorry for your damned cheating and caught stupid self, in case ill pack your bags and throw you and them out or you can face what you did, admit it and see if you have what it takes to be a woman worth having. And if I find you lied to me even once you are out on your a$$!

Being passive is a definite road to divorce!!!


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Ya... I know one of my huge problems when I started down the R path was thinking: “What should a good husband be?” and trying like hell to be the very best example of one I could think of. That meant treating my WW like a wife. Sort of like ‘maybe if I pretend she’s a wife she’ll become a good wife again.’... So I was afraid to do anything that might drive her further away. Failed miserably. 

Start by eradicating that you need to live up to that high standard now. Place yourself first.


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## movin on (Jan 24, 2012)

I tried to nice my marriage back to a good place.. It didn't work. When I said I was moving out of the town we lived in and started making plans for my life as a single guy .well that changed everything .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

carolinadreams said:


> This is a recent, persistent theme particularly when the wayward spouse is the wife and the betrayed is the husband.
> 
> People seem to think that if they are nice enough, persistent enough, if they just keeping eating crap long enough their spouse will take pity on their poor pathetic self, and give them some crumbs of love.
> 
> ...


1,000% guaranteed 

Sad but so so true


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## HusbandX (Jul 13, 2012)

It's a natural thing for many men to take this approach. 

The _thinking_ is that they weren't good/nice enough which drove their wife into the arms (and bed) of another man. So they have to be nicer to win them back.

As mentioned this is a beta trait and cannot be resolved with beta actions.

The tragedy is, for most betas, the reality of having to be alpha to win back their wife is so alien that it seems wrong and inevitably fails.

I just wonder what percentage of beta males who have failed to R and gone on to D eventually become more alpha, or move onto a relationship where they feel more appreciated as a beta again...


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## Paladin (Oct 15, 2011)

More of the Alpha Beta crap, sometimes I think people posting this advice have a stake in a lumber yard, or just have a surplus of 2x4's to get rid of. 

If there was a 'one size fits all' approach to marriage and infidelity, this forum wouldn't exist, and the world would be a less miserable place. 

You do not have to lay there and take it up the arse while a WS is "figuring" things out and diddling the POSOM. You also dont have to walk into the room high on viagra with a raging boner, punch the WS in the face, ****** the POSOM, beat your chest proudly and say "me tarzan, you go clean the toilet and suck my c0ck" to "win" back your wife.

Its not a contest, its not a game, you dont win anything. 

It is your responsibility as an adult to demonstrate that you understand what a proper marriage and relationship look like, and that you will do everything in your power to uphold that. Since you can only control your own actions, this should basically be a willingness to accept your faults in the marriage, but an unwillingness to accept disrespect, by filing for D if the A continues.

I think what most of you have a problem with is when a person begins trying to work on their own faults in the marriage without first establishing if their spouse is actually interested in continuing the marriage to begin with. I agree with this to a degree, and also believe that trying to work on what was wrong in the marriage before ensuring that there is no third party involved, will lead to failure.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Really? In my ignorance I did exactly what you say I shouldn't have done. And it worked.

Why? Because one size does not fit all.

There's an element of truth in the alpha/beta stuff but there's much more to it than that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hardtohandle (Jan 10, 2013)

I agree with Paladin to some degree as well. 

BUT

I think as was mentioned by the time you come here your so Beta that even if you can muster up a bit of [email protected] You only might be low end Alpha or high end Beta. 

I honestly know I could not have went from please honey I will eat Sh1t off the floor take me back to I am Tarzan.

I just didn't have the will power or intestinal fortitude. I was too beaten up.. I couldn't even deal with myself, let alone my STBXW. 

Sadly what happens with many, like it did for myself. I became Alpha during the Divorce stage. Fortunately for me it worked out well, financially.

I do believe though it is really psychological. That both the WWS and BS do shut down in some emotional level and revert back to some primal thinking or feeling. I think they are so damaged for that period of time that they can't do any great form of higher thinking. 

You can see it how many of us were irrational with some of our own thoughts. How you look back and say how retarded was I back then.

From reading many of the success stories here, many of them if not all seem to have that underlying story I told the WWS to get the fvck out on day one and they came crawling back weeks later.

I have not read any stories where begging and being overly nice won someone back. It might work short term though, but I it won't work out long term. I know as I am living proof of it.

Not adding a 3rd dimension to this, but regardless of being Alpha or Beta, there are some people that should not be married. Again I reflect back on my story. My wife was a serial cheater and was always looking to get out and probably never loved me. I just never seen it.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Paladin said:


> More of the Alpha Beta crap, sometimes I think people posting this advice have a stake in a lumber yard, or just have a surplus of 2x4's to get rid of.
> 
> If there was a 'one size fits all' approach to marriage and infidelity, this forum wouldn't exist, and the world would be a less miserable place.
> 
> ...


Obviously there is no blueprint to these scenarios as every marriage is different and obviously it' s not a game 

However that said 

How many successful reconciliations are there whereby the husband, as the opening poster says 'niced' his way back into his wayward spouses affections? 

I'd say as many as about er ................zero.

If it happens and is lasting, I'd guess that's about one in a hundred where that tactic worked.

What clearly does help in terms of r is that the betrayed gets up on their hind legs, grows a a pair and starts laying down the law about boundaries etc etc and lets not forget that has often already gone past the deal breaker point anyway 

There are some patterns in life that are frankly written in stone and it's pretty obvious that this is one of them imo anyway.


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## ironman (Feb 6, 2013)

Paladin said:


> More of the Alpha Beta crap, sometimes I think people posting this advice have a stake in a lumber yard, or just have a surplus of 2x4's to get rid of.


Meh, whatever. Personally, I don't believe anybody fits perfectly into any one "category". I think we all have elements of these different traits to varying degrees.

In the end I think it boils down to respect ...

1) Do you respect your spouse?

2) Does your spouse respect you?

3) Are you living a life worthy of respect from your spouse?

4) Do you respect yourself?

Knowing the answers to to these questions can tell you a lot about whether a couple will encounter infidelity and/or will be able to overcome it if it has already occurred.


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## sarcasmo (Feb 1, 2013)

For some reason I was drawn to this thread....

Nice sucks. Passive sucks. Fear sucks. I'm passive with an anxiety disorder. Even better. 

I know I have had plenty of chances to man-up and try to get my wife to commit to reconcilliation, but my passivity stopped me in my tracks.

A year ago, in marriage counceling, the marriage couselor made me a proposition. "I'm going to put $100 on the table. If you promise to call and schedule and appt with a therapist by next session, it's yours." Me: "I'd like to think I can do it, but I know myself. I can't promise you I will make the call so I can't take the money. " 

Before she had even met this guy, she asked me what I would do if she met someone else. Me, "I don't know. I guess I would fight for our marriage." No firm commitment. Sad.

Early on, when she had just met this guy, she told me they were talking. Me, "OK honey. As long as you guys are just friends." 

Sick. So sick. Three clear opportunities I had to man-up and take care of my sh*t and prove to my wife that I love her and that she is worth fighting for. I will live with this regret for a long time. 

I'm not taking blame for the affair. She could have stopped anytime, but why? Why stay with a man who clearly wont fight for her? I allowed her to detach from me. Did she do it the wrong way, absolutely, but I enabled it long before the affair. My actions said to her that I didn't care about the marriage. That I didn't want her. That I was indifferent. In her mind, why would I care if she had an affair? I seem so uninvested in everything. She figured I would just crawl away like I always do.

The sad irory is now that I have nothing to lose, I don't operate with fear around her any more (ok, as much). The affair has awakened my emotions; my passion and desire for her and our marriage, but it's falling on deaf ears. Unfortunately, she is too far gone to appreciate that and we are done.

All I know is I'm glad I found NMMNG. I'm glad I found this forum. I may still be a passive guy, but I'm changing for the better. Slowly. It wont help this marriage, but I'm setting out on a course that will hopefully help future relationships. Especially with my kids.


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## sarcasmo (Feb 1, 2013)

ironman said:


> Meh, whatever. Personally, I don't believe anybody fits perfectly into any one "category". I think we all have elements of these different traits to varying degrees.
> 
> In the end I think it boils down to respect ...
> 
> ...


I agree with this. I was talking with someone recently and he was telling me about how he and a freind of his joke about their marriages and their wives' control. My friend was saying that he controls 10-20% of the relationship. His friend said he was envious. He wishes he had that much control. Thing is, they are both happily married. I believe this is because while they relinquish "control" to their wives, there is mutual respect. While the wife runs things, she still respects her man. These guys don't have to be Alpha males, but they are integrated enough to be respected and not come off as passive chumps. 

For me, the goal will be to find that happy medium. Somewhere between controlling a-hole and passive wussy.


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## Paladin (Oct 15, 2011)

sarcasmo said:


> I agree with this. I was talking with someone recently and he was telling me about how he and a freind of his joke about their marriages and their wives' control. My friend was saying that he controls 10-20% of the relationship. His friend said he was envious. He wishes he had that much control. Thing is, they are both happily married. I believe this is because while they relinquish "control" to their wives, there is mutual respect. While the wife runs things, she still respects her man. These guys don't have to be Alpha males, but they are integrated enough to be respected and not come off as passive chumps.
> 
> For me, the goal will be to find that happy medium. Somewhere between controlling a-hole and passive wussy.


Our couples counselor refers to it as a co-equal relationship, or a relationship of co-equal decision making. As far as joking about how much control a wife has over the relationship, that goes as far back as relationships do. The phrase about "behind every strong man there is a good woman" <or something like that> comes from that concept, and a man who is truly secure with himself and his place in his relationship will have no problem with seeming as if his wife is running things while out in public.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

carolinadreams said:


> People seem to think that if they are nice enough, persistent enough, if they just keeping eating crap long enough, < aka : " justbe yourself and she will respect you."> their spouse will take pity on their poor pathetic self, and give them some crumbs of love.
> 
> [/COLOR] >
> 
> Stop it.


:iagree:

In Physics, 
Newton's first law of motion states:

".... _Every object in a state of uniform motion tends to remain in that state of motion unless an external force is applied to it_...."

In other words, 
".._Nothing changes , if nothing changes_..."

My thoughts are that some men who find themselves in the BS position have been conditioned to accept certain types of bad behaviour from their spouse.
The actual cheating is the end product, or the result of this type of social conditioning.
But anybody who truly respects themselves would never tolerate disrespect , especially in a marriage.
And yes, sometimes respecting oneself means walking away, or telling that other person to GTFO of my life.


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

Well......

Sometimes you just end up marrying a selfish bit(h....

Nuff said.


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## OhGeesh (Jan 5, 2010)

carolinadreams said:


> This is a recent, persistent theme particularly when the wayward spouse is the wife and the betrayed is the husband.
> 
> People seem to think that if they are nice enough, persistent enough, if they just keeping eating crap long enough their spouse will take pity on their poor pathetic self, and give them some crumbs of love.
> 
> ...




I agree, but only in affair scenarios. The day my life is micro managed or the day my wife's is it's probably time to reevaulate.


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## carolinadreams (Nov 30, 2012)

OhGeesh said:


> I agree, but only in affair scenarios. The day my life is micro managed or the day my wife's is it's probably time to reevaulate.


Affair/infidelity scenarios are entirely the context of the post


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

OhGeesh said:


> I agree, but only in affair scenarios. The day my life is micro managed or the day my wife's is it's probably time to reevaulate.


I don't understand you to be honest 

This thread is entirely about the mentality of a betrayed spouse contemplating a reconciliation and hoping todo it 'nice' and 'respectfully' 'not wanting to hurt their (wayward's) feelings' 

Generally speaking because of the rugsweeping, blaming, trickle truthing, gaslighting and justification of the affair by the wayward the betrayed often feels at fault and sees the only way back is by being apologetic and 'taking' that blame and fault, thinking it will change things in the eyes of the wayward who will now 'want them'.....- WRONG

It's easy to miss the fact that this, due to betrayed spouse 'fog' 'love' blindness, is a huge blunder in hoping to get back the wayward.

It 99% never works as it does not actually deal with why the wayward is happy to obliterate a marriage, a relationship, a family other families for what is often a quick thrill a covert liaison emotional or physical. Their guilt is so entrenched and covered by a multitude of lies and deceit that the only way they can get through it is for it to be left alone, hidden, to be somebody else's problem and the betrayed by not confronting it from fear actually coherces that belief in the wayward and so they stay where they have become most comfortable, on a pedestal issuing out dictums of blame to the betrayed (for example check out horizons many threads)

Well for all of us who have had that and are out of the fog and seeing _now without the 'mist'_ we KNOW that that is all a huge vat of shvte

It's unfortunate that it takes time for that cloud of disbelief to rise and leave the truth staring at you right in the face - that this person you have given your heart soul life body to is actually happy to CHOOSE to rip your heart and life to pieces....in small bits and slowly 

....with a smile on their face as they say "I love you darling" whilst wiping their inner thighs clean of Mr Unicorns latest cum droppings.

These are the husband wives and partners who are happy to sit at the family xmas dinner table playing with the kids whilst pressing that button to text "I love you" "cant wait for the next" "xxx" etc etc etc 

That's why 'nice' never really works - EVER


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Paladin said:


> More of the Alpha Beta crap, sometimes I think people posting this advice have a stake in a lumber yard, or just have a surplus of 2x4's to get rid of.


Surely it's ultimately about assertiveness.

If only alpha males could be assertive then there would be no assertive women - or at least they would all be masculine ball-breakers.

And if it were all about being an alpha male, what would the advice be for Betrayed Wives (particularly those who had been doormats and need to stand up to their WHs)?


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## snap (Oct 3, 2011)

Well all our life we men getting the concept of weak, vulnerable women hammered into us, down to the idea that expressing your frustration with wife is unacceptable and you rather should buy her some flowers. Even if you google for how to deal with unfaithful wife, for the most part you'd see the same idiotic "it's not her, it's you" type of advice everywhere.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Most of this thread so far is focused on the BH, but this natural urge to 'nice' the WS out of an affair and back into the marriage is an equal opportunity thing. Women have exactly the same impulse when faced with a cheating H.

For me, it's not a matter of nicing a spouse back. Rather, it's about establishing some respect. A healthy relationship should be based on mutual respect, and affairs grow from a lack of respect on the part of at least one spouse. There are plenty of people who are strong, honorable, respectable, and nice as human beings. I realize that I am naive in this, but for me this all comes with the territory of being an adult.

So, I believe that if 'nice' is all you've got, it won't win the day. As with so much, it's more complicated.


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## snap (Oct 3, 2011)

Dame, I think the idea that if a man cheats, he must be a pig who can't keep it zipped, is quite common (and a lot closer to truth). It's relatively hard to find advice to betrayed women asking them to take responsibility for their husband's "unhappiness", pay them more attention etc. The suggestions are more realistic and to the point.

Perhaps I'll get chewed by some guys here for saying this, but I think a lot of hesitation on part of BWs can be explained by their typically less advantageous position in case of divorce.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

snap said:


> Dame, I think the idea that if a man cheats, he must be a pig who can't keep it zipped, is quite common (and a lot closer to truth). It's relatively hard to find advice to betrayed women asking them to take responsibility for their husband's "unhappiness", pay them more attention etc. The suggestions are more realistic and to the point.
> 
> Perhaps I'll get chewed by some guys here for saying this, but I think a lot of hesitation on part of BWs can be explained by their typically less advantageous position in case of divorce.


My experience on TAM is that the BW threads are much more lightly perused by the TAM men. You might be surprised at how traumatized many of the BW's are because they put their H's up on a pedestal and thought 'he would never cheat, he's too honorable, etc.' They don't think of their H's as the 'typical man who can't keep his pants zipped.' They think that he must have been driven emotionally to find some connection with someone else & this thought makes them want to work to be that emotional connection. So, they try to nice the WH's.

The advice they get here is often very practical, but, here's the thing - that advice comes from the experienced posters. When women who have never experienced the cheating H and are new to TAM come to give advice, it is almost 100% to 'nice' the WH. They are told by these inexperienced posters to go with their instincts - 'Don't rock the boat. Don't mention the A. Don't badmouth the AP. Give him more, great sex. Lose that weight. Flatter him. Don't snoop - that will anger him. Etc.'

So, this is the standard cant for BW's in the wider world - he must have needed something you weren't giving him, so try to be that wife now.

I'm very sympathetic with the fact that there are gender differences that are very important to take note of. (I've learned more on TAM about men than I've ever known in my life.) I do think, though, that the impulse to be 'nice' to try to win back the spouse affects both genders, although in different guises. For most BW's, getting tough is the only way to not just wake up the WH, but to regain some self-respect and independence.

(And the part about the relative positions re divorce I completely agree with. When my H and I went to a lawyer to draw up a pre-nup that we had written together (and that he had insisted on), the lawyer looked straight at my H and said, "You do realize that in this state, you would do much better financially if you divorced without this pre-nup, don't you? Here, a man's standard of living goes up by about 40% with divorce, while a woman's goes down by a similar amount."


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## beautiful_day (Mar 28, 2013)

I think you're right ... it's terrifying for women with a couple of small children and maybe a part time job. The reaction to force yourself to be nice or abject poverty is overwhelming. Women WILL put up with all kinds of nonsense for the love of their kids. The other woman will also put her best, sweetest patient foot forward to win the 'prize'.


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## beautiful_day (Mar 28, 2013)

And to add ... because this hits a nerve with me ...

This was the deal breaker for me. My husband said something about the other woman waiting for him, and the penny suddenly dropped. That was the moment. I said to him "What is this? The sweetest and most patient wins? Sorry, I'm not playing that game". And that was it .. game over.


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## Robsia (Mar 11, 2013)

It's the same for women too. My turning point came when I found myself sitting on the sofa blubbering and begging him to give me a hug to make me feel better because I was upset about what he'd done and he sat there refusing because "I'd pissed him off."

And HE was the one who cheated on me.

I realised that he did not respect me for that kind of behaviour. Who would? I was needy and desperate, begging him to love me, and I sickened myself.

I started the 180 that night.


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## ALWAYS TRYING (Mar 2, 2013)

Just read and reread this thread. I am wondering how to not be "the good wife". I have tried, for 30 years, to be that person. And he still cheats. So as you all have said being nice doesn't work. And Im having such a hard time with the 180. We both travel for jobs (SomedayDig will understand). So when we are together i don't want to ignore him or not talk to him. 

So what's a "Nice" girl to do?


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## carolinadreams (Nov 30, 2012)

beautiful_day said:


> And to add ... because this hits a nerve with me ...
> 
> This was the deal breaker for me. My husband said something about the other woman waiting for him, and the penny suddenly dropped. That was the moment. I said to him "What is this? The sweetest and most patient wins? Sorry, I'm not playing that game". And that was it .. game over.


There's a writer, Chumplady maybe, who calls it something like "the humiliating dance of pick me".


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