# Philat's story: The coping never ceases



## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

I’ve been a member of this board for about a month and have made a number of posts, including reference to my fWW’s long-term EA and its lasting impact on our marriage. Recently another poster asked me how R is going, which prompted me to think maybe it’s time to tell my story. I don’t consider it a particularly special one, and it’s not nearly as gut-wrenching as some of those that have been shared here, but maybe I can contribute something to this board’s collective wisdom. I’ve chosen the CWI forum because I’m living proof that you never stop coping with infidelity. After all, I discovered TAM because I’m still looking for answers several years after the affair ended.

Brief bio: Married 37 years, together 41. Each other’s first and only partners, to the best of my knowledge. Three grown and fully launched children (two were still in high school when the story starts). 

Rewind to 2005, which was a bad year. W had breast cancer diagnosis and her father was dying. By early 2006 she had completed treatment (radiation) and her father had passed. I was looking forward to resuming a normal life when she announced that she was going to attend a “facilitated women’s retreat” to examine what she wanted to do with the rest of her life. Huh? She came back from this event having composed a “life chart” of her major life’s milestones and where she “wanted to go from here.” Ominously, I was not allowed to see this, suggesting that she did not intend me to accompany her on this journey. So I start to snoop, which is when I found a printed copy of an email she had sent to a former coworker some months previously begging in very personal terms to see him. This was Dday, June 2006. Ironically, the “life chart” turned out to be a non-issue. But this email certainly was not.

Not having had the benefit of TAM advice, I immediately confronted her demanding to know wtf was this? “It’s nothing.” “It’s irrelevant.” Etc. Says “I love you” while looking straight at the floor. But she takes the note from my hands and tears it up. OK, I said, I think you’d better tell me this whole story when you’re ready. A little while later she fesses up to what she called an “emotional affair.” These were her words, showing that she knew exactly what she was doing—I’d never heard the term before. The AP was someone she had known from work for 20 years. I also knew him (and liked him). W said she and I had developed bad communication habits, had grown apart in our thinking on politics, religion, etc., and she found this friend (call him “Keith”) to be an attentive and “safe” like-minded conversation partner. She also said she knew that “he wanted more” but that she “wasn’t going there.” Um … OK. How long has this been going on? She said she had been confiding in Keith for years, but hadn’t “done anything wrong.” Her assessment of our communication issues was fair, but I fully subscribe to the notion that the married couple shares responsibility for issues in the marriage but the WS is solely responsible for seeking solutions outside the marriage. At this point, being clueless as to what an EA is, I didn’t know quite what to make of the situation, but the fact that I felt gobsmacked at discovering this years-long secret part of W’s life told me that this was bad. The possibility that the EA had gone PA was also in my mind.

I mentioned that the email I found was several months old. Turns out that Keith had become an alcoholic and had withdrawn from everyone (some years before he had left his family and divorced), so there was no active contact going on at the time. So we swept it under the rug. But I had to check for myself, and got access to her email (work and private), FB, and phone. I discovered two things: 1) Keith had in fact contacted her after Dday, and 2) Keith’s best friend was also talking to my W, in a most inappropriate way. As the story moves forward, it is this friend (call him “Melvin”) who becomes the real issue, a near deal-breaker.

Through late 2006 and early 2007 I am clumsily trying to communicate to W how hurt I am and what I need to get better (which I’m not even sure of). I vacillate between anger and patheticness, she between defensiveness and tearful sorrow. If only I had found TAM or something like it at that time! I heard it all: Just friends, nothing to do with you, feeling controlled, etc. etc. But I did get a hold of the book Not Just Friends, which put things into focus. W read it too, agreed that she had crossed a line in her relationship with Keith. But still had not done anything “wrong.” Things calmed down a bit but were still simmering just below the surface. The big mistake here was wasting a year trying to resolve things with inconsistent approaches. I didn’t know any better, and was still under the impression that I might have been overreacting or else partially responsible for this EA. And I knew I still didn’t have the whole story—I didn’t push for it. More rug sweeping.

In April 2007 I get a phone call at work from W: She had gone to visit Keith (secretly), and had found him dead. I’m not making this up—he had drunk himself to death. She had been seeing him occasionally during these months, which I knew about (at least some of the meetings), but for her he was now a salvage project, not an active affair partner. He had nothing left to offer her in this area. Many BS out there might happily contemplate the death of the OM/OW, but I can tell you that it didn’t help—it relieved W of having to break off contact, which is one of the things I needed her to do but was not insistent enough about. The sweet memory of her EA remained intact (and I believe is to this day).

Now Keith’s friend Melvin really enters the picture. I had seen in W’s email that this guy was beyond flirty—he was overtly sexual. Lots of specific references to oral and anal sex etc. W didn’t exactly respond in kind but you could tell she enjoyed it. So I again (mistakenly) confronted her with this, which let her know I was in her email. She felt “violated,” said there was nothing to it etc. She didn’t encourage him but didn’t discourage either. Total crap in retrospect. At one point he referred to W’s relationship with Keith as “friend with benefits.” WTF? W said he was full of sh!t and was just ball busting. I let the FWB thing go but told her I didn’t like her relationship with Melvin. I’m thinking Melvin is now a surrogate for the dear departed Keith. W says she’ll have Melvin cool it with the sexual talk. There’s no question of a PA here, because Melvin lives on the opposite coast.

She changes all her passwords but I have no trouble breaking back in (I’m very good at solving puzzles). And I see that she and Melvin are discussing ways in which to deceive me into thinking they have become innocent. Melvin says he’ll make sure his emails are bland enough for his mother to read while saving the raunchy stuff for the phone (which he doesn’t know I have access to as well). She sent him one email in which she said she had a dream about a threesome with the two of them and Keith. She set up a profile on ******* (with virtually no info in it). When I ask her what the hell that is she says it’s so that she can see Melvin’s ******* profile, which he was using to get some on the side (he’s married with 2 kids). Now I’d been looking at W’s profile since it went up and can see that she is not actively working it so her story checks out, but nevertheless it calls her moral compass into serious question—she was in fact a party to Melvin’s infidelity. (Incidentally, I have a hard time thinking of Keith as a POS, but Melvin certainly is.) So I’ve had enough here. I printed out all the incriminating stuff and made up my mind that we are through. I had decided to do the 180 without knowing it, intending to pursue divorce and surprise her with it. This is in June 2008.

Then came cancer diagnosis number two, this time requiring mastectomy and heavy duty chemo. I shelved the divorce plan in view of this, but as I drove her to her first chemo I handed her an envelope with all the evidence I had and told her that I would take care of her during chemo, but the bullsh!t with Melvin had to stop. It may have been coldhearted to do this right before chemo, but I had truly had enough and wanted to make this loud and clear. I also sent email copies of this material to Melvin and told him to stay the fvck away. Melvin emailed W and said they should stop emailing each other. She responded “Whatever, right now I’m just thinking about the prospect of facing the nightmare of chemo by myself.” She actually copied me on this response. It was something of a breakthrough.

So to wrap this story up, W went through her chemo course with me by her side. We both started working hard on communication, and we’ve made great progress up to today. Melvin faded from the stage, with only the occasional check-in call until one day W on her own gave him a NC message. We are a loving and mutually supportive couple. And she is cancer-free five years later.

But things are not what they were. My trust in her is not and never will be complete. I still monitor her comms (she doesn’t know this). Not once did she offer to make them accessible to me (I didn’t press because I knew I could get access anyway). Nothing suspicious for the last few years, but I’m still in trust but verify mode. I also never got what I regard as a truly remorseful apology and request for forgiveness. Just “I’m sorry I hurt you—I never meant to.” Duh! 

I also know far from everything about the EA with Keith. I don’t think it went PA but believe me I know it may have (I haven’t forgotten Melvin’s FWB comment). In any case, I’ll never know for sure, and since Keith is not coming back I’m not sweating it. So it’s far from what you might call a “clean” reconciliation. The unanswered questions well up occasionally, and W tends to plead ignorance, forgetfulness, or else just shrugs. But I’ve found I can live with this, because I am certain that she now understands proper boundaries. I make an effort not to lament the marriage we had—it is something different now. If I had had the benefit of advice such as is available here on TAM I would have done things differently. But it is what it is. We are well into middle age, love one another, respect each other, enjoy each other’s company, have hot sex, and are proud of our children (I should note that W was never anything less than a great mother). Neither one of us is going anywhere. And I hope you will all forgive this long-winded account. It’s been difficult for me, but many of you have experienced far worse at the hands of those you trusted implicitly.


----------



## PamJ (Mar 22, 2013)

And at first I thought H and I were the oldest couple dealing with this stuff. I am 58 and H is now 61 (today). There are times I think it is ridiculous that at my age I have to deal with this crap. 

Then I read Disconnected's story, now your's and some others who appear to be at least in my age bracket and I don't feel so alone in this. It still sucks though. I thought we would grow older and wiser together, and so far, it's just older for him, although I am now wiser and maybe he'll get there too.

I know you said neither of you are going anywhere and I respect your decision not to ask about a PA, but I couldn't do it. Even though I am 99.9% certain my H's EAs never went PA, mostly due to distance and the fact that I pretty much know where he is ALL the time because of the business we run together, I still have asked him a few times if he ever cheated on me physically as well as emotionally. I really didn't expect him to ever admit to it unless I had proof, but you never know, so I have asked. Of course he said no. If I had seen the FWB comment I would not have let go of that question.

Thank you for sharing your story, I hope you find peace in all of this some day, but, if you are like me, I have pretty much accepted that it will always be that little wedge between us that he put there 16 years ago and wedged in a little more starting in 2011 through March of this year. And I am not one to hold onto grudges and things, it's just there.


----------



## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Imho, 100% trust is not a good thing. My reasoning is at weak moments anyone can make stupid decisions that lead down the wrong path.

Especially ,being the leader of a family , thenumber one priority is to protect that family. This means every man needs to be aware that some other men will jump at the oppurtunity to take away what is his.


----------



## 3putt (Dec 3, 2012)

PamJ said:


> And I am not one to hold onto grudges and things, *it's just there.*


That's it in a nutshell right there.

And it will never go _completely_ away.


----------



## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

PamJ said:


> And at first I thought H and I were the oldest couple dealing with this stuff. I am 58 and H is now 61 (today). There are times I think it is ridiculous that at my age I have to deal with this crap.
> 
> Then I read Disconnected's story, now your's and some others who appear to be at least in my age bracket and I don't feel so alone in this. It still sucks though. I thought we would grow older and wiser together, and so far, it's just older for him, although I am now wiser and maybe he'll get there too.
> 
> ...


Yep, it's always gonna be there, sad but true. I did ask about PA after reading POS Melvin's comment about FWB. She denied that it ever became physical. I tend to believe this because W is a terrible liar (albeit a frequent one in the past). Her voice sounds strangled when she's lying, which tipped me off to much of what I ended up finding out. But when asked about PA she did not respond in her "lying voice." But as I say, I'll never be sure.


----------



## BrockLanders (Jul 23, 2012)

Schedule a poly. She'll sing in the parking lot and you can give her the divorce papers. I can understand not leaving someone who might die. She's healthy now, let that toolbag deal with the next relapse.


----------



## nuclearnightmare (May 15, 2013)

PHILAT
you are the opposite of a troll (poster making things up). No one could make up the story you just related. Perhaps the most puzzling/intriguing personal story I've seen on here - that's saying something. 
I can't resist commenting more on your story but at this late hour I can't possibly do it justice. To be continued............


----------



## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Why have you not shared the evidence with Melvin's wife?


----------



## disconnected (May 30, 2013)

Philat said:


> I’ve been a member of this board for about a month and have made a number of posts, including reference to my fWW’s long-term EA and its lasting impact on our marriage. Recently another poster asked me how R is going, which prompted me to think maybe it’s time to tell my story. I don’t consider it a particularly special one, and it’s not nearly as gut-wrenching as some of those that have been shared here, but maybe I can contribute something to this board’s collective wisdom. I’ve chosen the CWI forum because I’m living proof that you never stop coping with infidelity. After all, I discovered TAM because I’m still looking for answers several years after the affair ended.
> 
> Brief bio: Married 37 years, together 41. Each other’s first and only partners, to the best of my knowledge. Three grown and fully launched children (two were still in high school when the story starts).
> 
> ...


All I wanted to do was click on "like" ... but was concerned that it might look like I 'liked' reading about your situation. It was not a happy read, but it was great that I could relate toit. It is really unfair what you have been through.

I found TAM/CWI five months after DD. It has saved me. But I went through much the same as you did in 7 years ago, but without being able to share with family or friends ... or anyone ... until TAM/CWI. I had no idea what I was going through, or what was ahead.

The more I read about people's situations - especially ones that are fairly long term since DD - the more I think that I am not going to go through that grief. 

Yours is a much tougher predicament than mine ... you and your wife have had to go through two bouts of cancer. Huge credit to you for the support you showed your wife.

I know of a few women (with children) at my work (both overseas and in head office) who have had cancer diagnoses - and it is not uncommon for the marriage to fail within two or three years of the treatment. BTW not all the women have survived. So again, huge credit to you for your loyalty to her, borne out of love no doubt.

It is doubtful (impossible) that WH and I will reconcile. WH doesn't want to. And slowly - day by day - neither do I.

Thank you for writing about your situation. It is posts like these that help me enormously in moving on. Also, the posts on my thread that have offered advice and support are a tremendous help.

Good luck. It is totally unfair that you have had to go through this at a stage of life where grandchildren have either arrived, or are on the horizon.


----------



## hopefulgirl (Feb 12, 2013)

Philat - I don't know if you'd feel it's too late, but the experts say "you can't apologize too much" for an affair and I think that really is true. I let my husband read that for himself (I bought some books on infidelity) and I told him that it would help me, and his frequent apologies have helped my healing and our reconciliation process a lot (still in the early stages - 8 months in).



Chaparral said:


> Imho, 100% trust is not a good thing. My reasoning is at weak moments anyone can make stupid decisions that lead down the wrong path.
> 
> Especially ,being the leader of a family , thenumber one priority is to protect that family. This means every man needs to be aware that some other men will jump at the oppurtunity to take away what is his.


Chaparral - So PamJ and I and other women who are BS's - we will never have 100% trust in our husbands (even if it wasn't a good thing to have 100% trust in the first place), and we will never feel as protected as we once were. You think we can - or would want to - view our husbands as the "leaders" of our families??


----------



## AngryandUsed (Jun 23, 2011)

Philat,

Your case resembles in many ways mine.
I have zero evidence. You have some.

I am afraid, because I am not sure:

1. if she had any consequence.
2. if you have full truth about her A with both Keith and Melvin.
3. if you live a "loveless" "trust less" life, and you are okay with it.
4. if you have healed from the hurt.

Take care
AU


----------



## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Terrible, but sadly I don't think you know the half of it Phil

Nil remorse, nil respect, nil boundaries, selfish, entitled the full cheater script 

I could see why paradoxically you might NOT want to dig deeper because I'm certain you'll uncover bucket loads 

It's a shame you did'nt go fully public with Melvins wife and full family disclosure you'd probably have got a lot more of the truth

See this is how it works, because you never actually got fully through it, it will NEVER go away and for that I'd nail her to the wall - personally speaking

Frankly she's got clean away with it all from top to bottom


----------



## ironman (Feb 6, 2013)

Hi Philat.

Thanks for sharing your story. 

It seems obvious she has not revealed the full nature of her "affairs" in my opinion. Seems like you know this too. 

My question to you is ... do you want to know the full truth? I certainly would. If so, your best bet is to schedule a polygraph test for her telling her you can't shake the feeling that you don't have the full truth. Act as if the polygraph is 100% accurate (even though it is not) ... the point being that she most likely will confess beforehand out of fear of being embarrassed at the actual test. Sometimes people even hold off on the truth until they reach the parking lot of the test location. Either way, go forward with the test ... if you want the truth that is.


----------



## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

Shaggy said:


> Why have you not shared the evidence with Melvin's wife?


Shaggy: One thing I didn't include in the story is the fact that I tricked Melvin into giving me his wife's personal contact info by pretending to be interested in a book she had written (this was when he was in town for Keith's funeral). Later when I sent him copes of my evidence I suggested that his W might also be interested in seeing it. This is when he backed off.


----------



## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Philat said:


> Shaggy: One thing I didn't include in the story is the fact that I tricked Melvin into giving me his wife's personal contact info by pretending to be interested in a book she had written (this was when he was in town for Keith's funeral). Later when I sent him copes of my evidence I suggested that his W might also be interested in seeing it. This is when he backed off.


With respect Phil, that's not the same 

Telling her, not him would have completely blown up whatever your wife and he had 

It's one of the first rules of dealing with with a cheat - Tell ALL - EVERYBODY her side of her family your side of your family, other man's wife and all associated friends of both of them

Then watch them try and wriggle their asses out of that. It's one of the biggest and quickest techniques to get rid of the wayward spouses fog


----------



## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

Thank you all for reading my story and for your comments. Like Disconnected, I have found TAM to be a very affirming place. 

Do I want to dig hard for whatever truth might be unspoken regarding W’s affair with Keith? At this point no. If this were 2006 and I had the benefit of TAM advice it would be a different story, and I would take inspiration from the likes of TheFlood117. And for those of you who recommend going hard with a polygraph even now: I hear you. But now it really wouldn’t help me. By a very convoluted road, W now clearly understands 1) she took actions that were disrespectful to me and our marriage (we have discussed this explicitly); 2) she came within a hair’s breadth of losing me; 3) she has no more room for error. She has been on the straight and narrow for several years now. She also knows that she will never have my unquestioned trust again. She is ashamed. Any new revelations from the past will not promote healing—the scars are there already and cannot be erased. Since we’ve arrived at a good place in our relationship considering all that has happened, I don’t take the view that W has gotten away with something. I must admit, though, that in my darker moments I relish the karma of the WS discovering the (former) AP dead. Terrible of me, I know…

As for POS Melvin, all I had to do was suggest that his W might be interested in reading what he had to say to my W in order to send him scurrying back under his rock, where he became a nonfactor. That was enough for me in view of everything else that was going on. There was never anything more to this part of the story than sleazy sexting/phoning. W had no problem detaching from him.

AngryandUsed: We are living a life of diminished trust to be sure, but one that is definitely full of love. Is this contradictory? I don’t know, but it’s true nonetheless. Go figure.


----------



## harrybrown (May 22, 2013)

Glad that you are doing better.

If I were the spouse of a cheating spouse, I would like to know.

His wife should find out somehow.

I hope you find a way to let her know. 

Tell your wife she is lucky to have you.

My wife and I have only been married for 39 years. 

I wish I could get to the same acceptance of the situation as you.


----------



## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

_Glad that you are doing better.

If I were the spouse of a cheating spouse, I would like to know.

His wife should find out somehow.

I hope you find a way to let her know.

*Tell your wife she is lucky to have you.*

My wife and I have only been married for 39 years.

I wish I could get to the same acceptance of the situation as you. _

Thanks, Harry. W actually has said this often since the fog has lifted.


----------



## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Philat said:


> Thank you all for reading my story and for your comments. Like Disconnected, I have found TAM to be a very affirming place.
> 
> Do I want to dig hard for whatever truth might be unspoken regarding W’s affair with Keith? At this point no. If this were 2006 and I had the benefit of TAM advice it would be a different story, and I would take inspiration from the likes of TheFlood117. And for those of you who recommend going hard with a polygraph even now: I hear you. But now it really wouldn’t help me. By a very convoluted road, W now clearly understands 1) she took actions that were disrespectful to me and our marriage (we have discussed this explicitly); 2) she came within a hair’s breadth of losing me; 3) she has no more room for error. She has been on the straight and narrow for several years now. She also knows that she will never have my unquestioned trust again. She is ashamed. Any new revelations from the past will not promote healing—the scars are there already and cannot be erased. Since we’ve arrived at a good place in our relationship considering all that has happened, I don’t take the view that W has gotten away with something. I must admit, though, that in my darker moments I relish the karma of the WS discovering the (former) AP dead. Terrible of me, I know…
> 
> ...


Similar to my situation. Knowing her faults and still loving her is in some ways deeper. Not fair perhaps, but life isn't fair. I'll settle for being happy.


----------



## nuclearnightmare (May 15, 2013)

Philat said:


> I’ve been a member of this board for about a month and have made a number of posts, including reference to my fWW’s long-term EA and its lasting impact on our marriage. Recently another poster asked me how R is going, which prompted me to think maybe it’s time to tell my story. I don’t consider it a particularly special one, and it’s not nearly as gut-wrenching as some of those that have been shared here, but maybe I can contribute something to this board’s collective wisdom. I’ve chosen the CWI forum because I’m living proof that you never stop coping with infidelity. After all, I discovered TAM because I’m still looking for answers several years after the affair ended.
> 
> Brief bio: Married 37 years, together 41. Each other’s first and only partners, to the best of my knowledge. Three grown and fully launched children (two were still in high school when the story starts).
> 
> ...



Philat:
I've been married for over 30 years myself. but....hmmmm......every once in awhile I encounter a poster that actually seems more expert than I am on how they should proceed with their life. 

So I'm just gonna give you a couple reactions is all:

1. She may well have done a lot for you in your life and long marriage. But once she had these EAish-type affairs, you at that point owed her nothing, including no hand-holding or emotional support of any kind with cancer treatment 1 or 2. everything you've done for her since that time, your love etc. is your gift to her. not clear to me that's a gift she deserved.

2. you are right not to trust her, still. I think you should have an exit strategy well-in-hand, just in case she pulls this crap again, or anything like it.

3. never cover for her with your kids. If something gets out in the open with them, from the past or in the future, let her deal with it. she's on her own.....

4. have you praised her in public in the past? or in front of your extended family or kids (are you that type?? i.e. saying "my wife is wonderful at this, at that, which is why I love her etc....). If so I think you should knock that off at this point.
A spouse that can't be trusted should not be fawned over....at all.

thanks for sharing your story. this one has a lot to learn from, I think.


----------



## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

_Philat:
I've been married for over 30 years myself. but....hmmmm......every once in awhile I encounter a poster that actually seems more expert than I am on how they should proceed with their life.

So I'm just gonna give you a couple reactions is all:

1. She may well have done a lot for you in your life and long marriage. But once she had these EAish-type affairs, you at that point owed her nothing, including no hand-holding or emotional support of any kind with cancer treatment 1 or 2. everything you've done for her since that time, your love etc. is your gift to her. not clear to me that's a gift she deserved.

2. you are right not to trust her, still. I think you should have an exit strategy well-in-hand, just in case she pulls this crap again, or anything like it.

3. never cover for her with your kids. If something gets out in the open with them, from the past or in the future, let her deal with it. she's on her own.....

4. have you praised her in public in the past? or in front of your extended family or kids (are you that type?? i.e. saying "my wife is wonderful at this, at that, which is why I love her etc....). If so I think you should knock that off at this point.
A spouse that can't be trusted should not be fawned over....at all.

thanks for sharing your story. this one has a lot to learn from, I think._

Thanks, Nuke,

You raise some good thoughts. My exit strategy is right to the lawyer's office the moment anything out of line happens again. She knows this. It was when I finally decided to end the marriage right before the second cancer diagnosis that things actually took a turn for the better. I wish it hadn't taken so long for me to get to that state of mind. TAM would not have let that happen...

The kids are all adults, so no real issue there. They will get the true facts, whatever they may be, if it comes to that.

In my mind the cancer temporarily trumped everything else, but otherwise yes, she forfeited the right to my affections. She realized this and has done enough to win them back with certain reservations (though she didn't do everything that she could have). As I said, at this point it is what it is.


----------



## sammy3 (Jun 5, 2011)

Philat, if all is pretty much ok at home , what made you recently come on to TAM for ? 

~sammy


----------



## illwill (Feb 21, 2013)

Not sure how or why you'd want her back when she has not even said sorry. And i do believe your wife got off easy. And no tangible consequences breeds boldness to commit the crime again. You are happy now, and that's awesome. No need to look back as long as she believes you will leave the next time. I doubt she believes it. And that's the ptoblem when there are no consequences. And you really shouldn't need to come here to understand that. It's basic human behavior. Like the others said, your wife is lucky to have you. Only time will tell if you are lucky to be with her though.


----------



## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

sammy3 said:


> Philat, if all is pretty much ok at home , what made you recently come on to TAM for ?
> 
> ~sammy


Sammy,

There are still some loose ends/unaddressed feelings/unanswered questions. I was looking for others who might have these same issues. I'm happy to see that I am far from alone.


----------



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Very moving description.

1) It is human nature to cake eat when we can get away with it. You don't have to be evil to cake eater, just greedy and hypocritical.

2) Did you ever consider a revenge affair?

3) Do you feel that you lived in state of emasculation while you could not stamp these EAs dead?

4) Cancer recovery requires a good psychological state of mind. You may have saved your wife's life. If you had divorced or separated at that point, she probably wouldn't have made it. Has she ever said this?

5) Do you ever feel like she owes you, as in there is some unpleasant task that is your turn to do and you just tell her to do it while all the while thinking if she gives me grief I'll just say something angry about the affair or just go and file for a divorce?

6) The stuff Melvin wrote implies very strongly that not only did Keith and your wife have sex, he shared information about her with Melvin and this is what stimulated his fantasies about anal sex, etc. He saw himself as the inheritor of a very sexual woman who had to have her needs met outside of marriage.

7) As you observe love defies easy explanation. TAM would be boring if people like you didn't contradict the truisms. The proof that you have made a contradiction here is that no reader will wonder if you are a troll. The death of the OM is a typical sensational bit that would be a central wish for many, but you have painted a more profound picture.

Keith was a flawed person but in some sense a human being to whom you could relate. Melvin was a died in wool POS. This also something people in TAM understandably tend to too black and white about.

If someone falls in love does the AP always have to be a POS? In reality, no, but to survive the BS must fight back with this label.


----------



## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

sammy3 said:


> Philat, if all is pretty much ok at home , what made you recently come on to TAM for ?
> 
> ~sammy


"The coping never ceases"

You decide one of two things:

Either cheaters have some defect, and the art of a perfect marriage is to find someone who wont cheat. I don't believe this.

Or you decide anyone can cheat. In which case you pick a parter you love who is an acceptable level of risk and manage the risk, or you live alone. This is what I believe, and I don't want to live alone.


----------



## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

_Very moving description.

1) It is human nature to cake eat when we can get away with it. You don't have to be evil to cake eater, just greedy and hypocritical. *Or else simply clueless as to what you are doing*

2) Did you ever consider a revenge affair? *No*

3) Do you feel that you lived in state of emasculation while you could not stamp these EAs dead? *Emasculation is the wrong word but in the right ballpark. Shafted is more like it*

4) Cancer recovery requires a good psychological state of mind. You may have saved your wife's life. If you had divorced or separated at that point, she probably wouldn't have made it. Has she ever said this? *Not so definitively, but an occasional tearful "thank you for taking care of me" *

5) Do you ever feel like she owes you, as in there is some unpleasant task that is your turn to do and you just tell her to do it while all the while thinking if she gives me grief I'll just say something angry about the affair or just go and file for a divorce? *No. I try to stay away from scorekeeping.*

6) The stuff Melvin wrote implies very strongly that not only did Keith and your wife have sex, he shared information about her with Melvin and this is what stimulated his fantasies about anal sex, etc. He saw himself as the inheritor of a very sexual woman who had to have her needs met outside of marriage. *This is the rub isn't it? They may or may not have. Melvin was prone to use graphic and suggestive language for shock value. There were no blips in our sex life at home, no unexplained absences etc. But I'm not blind to the real possibility.*

7) As you observe love defies easy explanation. TAM would be boring if people like you didn't contradict the truisms. The proof that you have made a contradiction here is that no reader will wonder if you are a troll. The death of the OM is a typical sensational bit that would be a central wish for many, but you have painted a more profound picture.

Keith was a flawed person but in some sense a human being to whom you could relate. Melvin was a died in wool POS. This also something people in TAM understandably tend to too black and white about. *You are dead on about both Keith and Melvin. *

If someone falls in love does the AP always have to be a POS? In reality, no, but to survive the BS must fight back with this label. _ *Even if the AP is not in some general sense a POS, the affair is still s****y, which is where the BS is coming from, I think.*

Thanks for your insight, longwalk.


----------



## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

_Or you decide anyone can cheat. In which case you pick a parter you love who is an acceptable level of risk and manage the risk, or you live alone. This is what I believe, and I don't want to live alone. _

That's about the size of it, wazza. And I think the level of acceptable risk varies with the length of the relationship, prior history of cheating, etc. After 40+ years with this woman I can live with what has happened. If we had been married say only 10 years it might be a different story altogether.


----------



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

You're welcome.
I hope TheFlood follows this thread.

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


----------



## sammy3 (Jun 5, 2011)

Wow,philat, I get the 40+ yrs, as Im at 30 mark where he cheated... I too wished he had done this when even at the 25 yr mark, at least I would have been younger. 

Someone pointed out to me in another thread of mine , that had hubs died, my choice would had been to go it alone & I would manage, & make it work, as one of my biggies of leaving the marriage is the fear of being alone now. That's whats so hard about this mess, it is like a death, but no corpse, and no guilt of not returning to the marriage. 

I wonder, you say the sex is great, I know men and women view it differently, but I wonder how many women here are really satisfied w their man after they have had it with an other women ? We tend to view sex more personal ? Is it easier for men then to R in this stage of recovery ? 

~sammy


----------



## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

sammy3 said:


> Wow,philat, I get the 40+ yrs, as Im at 30 mark where he cheated... I too wished he had done this when even at the 25 yr mark, at least I would have been younger.
> 
> Someone pointed out to me in another thread of mine , that had hubs died, my choice would had been to go it alone & I would manage, & make it work, as one of my biggies of leaving the marriage is the fear of being alone now. That's whats so hard about this mess, it is like a death, but no corpse, and no guilt of not returning to the marriage.
> 
> ...


Sounds like a topic for a new thread, sammy.


----------



## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

PamJ said:


> And at first I thought H and I were the oldest couple dealing with this stuff. I am 58 and H is now 61 (today). There are times I think it is ridiculous that at my age I have to deal with this crap.
> 
> Then I read Disconnected's story, now your's and some others who appear to be at least in my age bracket and I don't feel so alone in this. It still sucks though. I thought we would grow older and wiser together, and so far, it's just older for him, although I am now wiser and maybe he'll get there too.
> 
> ...


It will always be there. 

I was in R for 30 years until my husband cheated again with the same woman. I have no idea now if it ever stopped but for sure it started again. And the other shoe finally dropped. So after a 45 year marriage I got a divorce this summer. I wish in retrospect I had gotten out 30 years ago but I'm happy with my life now. 

Betrayal knows no age bracket.


----------



## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

Openminded said:


> It will always be there.
> 
> I was in R for 30 years until my husband cheated again with the same woman. I have no idea now if it ever stopped but for sure it started again. And the other shoe finally dropped. So after a 45 year marriage I got a divorce this summer. I wish in retrospect I had gotten out 30 years ago but I'm happy with my life now.
> 
> Betrayal knows no age bracket.


It will indeed always be there.  I'm glad you have arrived at a happy place, openminded.


----------



## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Philat said:


> It will indeed always be there.  I'm glad you have arrived at a happy place, openminded.


Thank you, Philat. It was a long and difficult journey but I did eventually get there. And I wish happiness to all who find themselves where they never expected to be when they took their vows.


----------



## 86857 (Sep 5, 2013)

Philat said:


> I still monitor her comms (she doesn’t know this). Not once did she offer to make them accessible to me.


Not good enough.


> I also never got what I regard as a truly remorseful apology and request for forgiveness. Just “I’m sorry I hurt you—I never meant to.” Duh!


Not good enough.


> I also know far from everything about the EA with Keith. The unanswered questions well up occasionally, and W tends to plead ignorance, forgetfulness, or else just shrugs.


Not good enough.


> There are still some loose ends/unaddressed feelings/unanswered questions.


Not good enough.

Philat I just read your very moving post. I detected an undercurrent of sadness. You sound like an utter gentleman with a very big heart who knowingly settled for a less-than-perfect R. But do you really have to? 


> I was looking for others who might have these same issues. I'm happy to see that I am far from alone.


It is still bothering you. An EA/PA will always bother us - the scar will always be there. But that is very different to being in the position of still not knowing exactly what happened. Another reason to know the full truth is that unless we are fully aware of the facts an informed decision is impossible. As TAM always advocates with good reason, the BS must fully disclose, offer a resounding apology and be transparent.


> If I had had the benefit of advice such as is available here on TAM I would have done things differently..


You NOW have the benefit of advice on TAM and more to the point, you are still suffering unease and are still here. Many posters are questioning your R.
Is is really too late Philat to get answers to those questions and lighten your load, so than you can stop wondering about it? Would it be better if you knew and the questions went away? Is that what perhaps unconsciously brings you here? Isn't it time for WS to tell you the truth instead of shrugging you off when you question her, to offer complete transparency and a resounding apology? 
If I may be blunt, I think WS has not stepped up to the mark here, particularly given how you stood by her through her illness despite her actions and the fact that she had 2 x EAs, not just one. 
If you decided to get answers to your questions you could read out your post to her because it expresses perfectly what you are feeling. Or perhaps try MC. Or best of all I'm sure some TAMMERS would have advice on how to proceed.
Regardless of what I have said, I respect the decision you made enormously. 
With every good wish,
**********


----------



## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

********** said:


> Not good enough.
> 
> Not good enough.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your thoughts and good wishes, @86857.


----------



## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

Folks, there are updates to this story. Will post in a new thread soon.


----------



## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Oh dear...?


----------



## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

Wazza said:


> Oh dear...?


Good, I think, but time will tell.


----------



## 86857 (Sep 5, 2013)

Philat said:


> Good, I think, but time will tell.


I sure hope so Philat,
Don't forget about your well-wishers on here though!
Keep us posted.


----------

