# Wife Never Initiates Sex Which Leads To Same Arguement Over & Over Again



## ptomczyk11 (Feb 9, 2015)

Hi,

My wife and I are great together. However, we always get stuck in the same argument which has gotten repetitive at this stage in our life. We go great for a couple of months and then the vicious argument cycle starts up again. We have had this fight so many times now that it is just draining us to the point where we just both break down and even have discussed divorce / marriage counselor at this point. 

I think the beginning of our issue comes from each of us speaking different love languages. My wife is very emotional and is very affectionate in terms of kissing/hugging whereas I'm not like that. When she shows me affection, I of course reciprocate back but she takes the lead on this. I do show affectionate as well but not at the level as she does. I never was one of those guys that says "i love you" all the time; which I feel most of it comes from how I was raised, so saying it all the time doesn't come as natural to me as it does to her. 

We've been together now for 7+ years (married for 2 years), and obviously at the beginning of the relationship sex was not an issue. There was less resentment towards each other and we would always do anything for each other...the word "no" wasn't so easily used when we wanted to do something.

Based on how long we've been together, I can count on 1 hand how many times she initiated sex. Which is fine, she has told me that she doesn't like to initiate sex, which I don't mind doing. In the beginning / middle of the relationship she would barely turn me down when I initiated sex. However, now that we are married when I initiate sex I get turned down more; which in turn makes me feel like sh*t and resentful towards her. Her famous line now is "i'm tired"; my skin actually crawls each time she says that because it feels like she is basically saying "no we're not having sex today so don't try to initiate anything".

I'm sorry to say but as a guy I need sex to feel fulfilled in my relationship. My wife on the other hand needs the emotional affection and doesn't rely on sex as much. If I don't get sex I start to feel distant from her and I don't feel like being very emotional with her. This is what starts our vicious cycle; lack of sex for me & being turned down for sex leads to resentment towards her and makes me be less emotional towards her. Then with me being less emotional with her she becomes resentful towards me because she then doesn't want to have sex with me because it is only way she can get me back to being more emotional.

She always tells me that she doesn't require much and the more emotional affection I give her the more it will make her happy and in return make me happy, but that hasn't been the case. I've tried being very affectionate with her without looking for sex in return and it has been great, but now that she is getting her emotional needs met as days go by and I'm hoping she will initiate sex or not turn me down for trying to have sex by using her "i'm tired" line I start getting resentful again because my needs are not being met now.

I think this cycle stems from us being able to say "no" to each other so easily because it was never like this at the beginning. I'm a very easy going person so if she wants me to hang out with her friends, family, etc. I never put up an argument and always go with the flow. However, I hate the way she reacts to the same situations when they are reversed. Instead of saying, yeah babe I'd love to do that, I get the "do we have to do to that"; which I in turn say don't worry about you can stay home and then she says "no, i'll go; i feel bad" but at that point I feel like saying I don't even want you to go; please stay home if you wanted to go you would have said so at the very beginning.

And it's even been like this a couple times for sex; she would turn me down I would get a little annoyed but accept it at this point in time because it has been like this for a while; so I accept defeat, but then she'll be like okay let's have sex but in the back of my mind this annoys me even more, don't give me pity sex because now you feel bad for turning me down.

She always says that she's a great wife and she thinks of her as above average and wants to be treated like she's above average. I of course don't treat her bad and I'll do anything for her. She says that she tries to cook as often as she can, laundry, make the house look nice, etc...which is great. I also do the man duties of the household as well, but she always says it's never good enough for me. I'm glad that she does these things for the house, but I'm never disappointed if she doesn't cook; it doesn't bother me. I feel like just saying; please initiate sex more with me or don't turn me down so much because that is a big need in my life that I need fulfilled to feel more connected to you.

I'm sorry for this rant...I went all over the place. 

However, has anyone gone through the same issues I'm going through? How did you break this vicious cycle?

Thanks!


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

First thing, both of you take the 5 love languages quiz, separately and then compare the results to each other. You will find out, your love languages might be very different from each other. When you both take the quiz, be totally honest and for yourselves.

Here's the quiz.

Language Profile | The 5 Love Languages®


She wants you to be the man and take charge, lead and initiate.
You must do this whether you like it or not. I do the same thing in my marriage.

Isn't that crazy? Our women expect us to initiate sex but then turn us down for every little reason!! So after years of this, we stop initiating and then they say, if you initiated more.......etc.:scratchhead::scratchhead:

It's like this. Ladies want what they don't have and don't want what they do have......something like that.

If I don't initiative sex, my wifee is fine with that for a while, then she will initiate and its great. She has told me, if you did this or that I might be in the mood more.....if you initiated more.....we'll, I have done this and still excuses not to have sex and if she does give in, it feels like duty or pity sex at times.

My solution. Buy yourself a male masturbator sex aid. When you initiate and she turns you down, use the sexual aid. Then if she comes back to you later, wants duty or pity sex, tell her, no thanks, I took care of business. She won't be making excuses as often when you initiate.

http://www.amazon.ca/Doc-Johnson-Sa...TF8&qid=1423508615&sr=1-2&keywords=sasha+grey

My wifee is more emotional so I cuddle with her a lot to the point her cuddle tank is full and says, GO AWAY. I massage her back, legs, calves and feet until she says, GO AWAY. I listen to her about her day more than I used to but I also give her lots of space so she can unwind and do her own thing.

As for chores, I would say I do more than my wifee. Every day when I leave for work and when I get home, I take out the kitchen garbage, unload the dishwasher, food and water for kitty, minor outside cleanup, clean the cat litter, recycle, etc. Maybe 20 minutes each day so it never piles up. Then on my weekends, I do major cleanup and pruning, recycle glass, bills paid early, clean kitchen, grocery shop, and make appointments with contractors for our place. My wifee does nothing all week long....then on her days off, she spends one day doing chores and gets upset she had wasted her day. I tell her, spread it out so chores never pile up.....I know she says, but never does this. Listening, but not learning.

And my wifee also thinks she is a great wife, chores and LD......

What I've learned, as a man, is you must be the leader, initiate but put up with her excuses not to have sex. This will frustrate you to no end but that's the way our wives act. You can't tell her initiate more and stop making excuses not to have sex because that won't do anything either. She has to read your results from the 5 love languages quiz and post your results on the fridge as a daily reminder. If that doesn't do it, then use the sexual aid and go out with friends and do your own thing more.

Arguing about the sex issue will bring it to the forefront. Not talking about the sex issues will mean to her, everything is okay for you and it continues.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

ptomczyk11 said:


> Hi,
> 
> My wife and I are great together. However, we always get stuck in the same argument which has gotten repetitive at this stage in our life. We go great for a couple of months and then the vicious argument cycle starts up again. We have had this fight so many times now that it is just draining us to the point where we just both break down and even have discussed divorce / marriage counselor at this point.
> 
> ...


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## Joey2k (Oct 3, 2014)

ptomczyk11 said:


> _snip_


Don't have much to add, except you pretty much described my relationship to a T. Only mine has been going on like this for 15 years. I doubt it will get better. We both pay lip service to the fact that one of us will have to take the first step toward giving the other what they want in order to get what they want in return. Only trouble is I feel like I have taken that first step many times, and she has never reciprocated. It will probably end us, as soon as I get up the will to leave and get my ducks in a row.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

ptomczyk11 said:


> ...we always get stuck in the same argument which has gotten repetitive at this stage in our life.
> ...we just both break down and even have discussed divorce / marriage counselor at this point.
> 
> I think the beginning of our issue comes from each of us speaking different love languages.
> ...


My 2 cents.

Congratulations you have a good idea on what the problem is.

My wife is a quality time and act of service 5LL person. I am a touch and words of affirmation person. For the longest period of time we just were not providing each other what we needed to feel loved.

I would reach out and touch my wife to tell her I loved her. She felt I was groping her trying to get sex. And so my statement of "I love you" was rejected by her as much as if she had slapped me in the face. 

On the other hand, as an act of service person it was very very important to her to state and show her love to me by having a hot meal ready when I came home from work. She then liked to sit at dinner and discuss our days so she got her quality time. Dinner was critical to her showing love and feeling loved in return. Like you I was clueless. I use to work late and not call her. She would wait, sometime dinner would be burned or ruined and she would feel totally rejected and unloved because I wasn't there for her and her statement of love was effectively rejected by me. When that happened she was very angry at me and not at all in the mood for sex or meeting any of my needs which were more for intimacy than sex, but I would settle for sex.

Any of this sound familiar to you?

What I finally learned how to do was to drop my anger toward my wife, get a life where I wasn't as dependent on her for my happiness, and learn how to love her unconditionally in HER LOVE LANGUAGES. That made her feel really loved. It allowed her to work past her anger toward me and allowed her to understand that she needed to meet my sexual and intimacy needs, even if it wasn't a high priority for her.

Since my wife really needs acts of service and quality time in the morning, I get up when the alarm rings and bring 2 cups of coffee up to bed. We each drink coffee, wake up and then talk to each other about our days. That makes my wife feel I am performing an act of service to her (bringing her coffee) and she is also getting some quality time. She starts out the day feeling loved in HER love languages.

When I get home, I usually open or pour some wine for her (my act of service) and while she is making dinner (her act of service) I talk to her so she gets some quality time early and I try to help out by doing things she really doesn't care about. I love to eat salad, she doesn't.  So rather than going without salad, I will make a salad most nights. At dinner we talk about the day and I ask how the things she talked about in the morning turned out. Then after dinner she goes to the living room to read, while I load the dishwasher as an act of service to her.

One of the things, that I would like to suggest is that you and your wife really read Chapmans 5LL and figure out how you can make each other feel loved. To do that you will likely have to change how you treat her and she how she treats you.

The other suggestion I would like to make has to do with your sex life. None of the 5 LL's are sex. Sex can be involved in all of them, but none of them are sex. This is an additional dimension that seems to be a point of contention. If it is, a sex therapist is not a bad investment in a marriage, as it is a lot cheaper than two divorce attorney's.

Once you have done your 180 and started making your W feel loved, you might want to have a serious discussion with her about your wanting to change your sex life so that it is more playful. Tell her that you really want to feel emotionally connected with her and for you that happens after sex and the release of hormones associated with sex. If that is true for you, make sure that after sex you really walk the talk by cuddling and being intimate with her and do all of the things (Chapman's 5 LL) that make her feel loved.

In particular tell her that you want it to be fun and exploratory. As such, you will each have to initiate at time when you are feeling relaxed and playful or maybe figure out times you can schedule sex and intimacy.

Good luck.


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## usmarriedguy (Dec 9, 2013)

I guess a lot of HD/LD marriages go through this.

Frankly there is not a lot you can do about her.

Having the same argument over and over again is not going to help.

You need to adjust your thinking and stop expecting her to be different because you want her to be different. Spending your time resenting her is a waste of time. 

I do not want any couple to divorce but life is short and we all have to weigh the good and the bad. If in this case the good outweighs the bad than accept and make the best of it.


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

Sounds like you with held on the emotional side of things for quite some time which has stared this cycle of resentment. It won't be fixed by you simply putting a half felt effort of meeting her emotional needs. It is something that happens often in marriage, men forget to keep treating their wife as they did when they started dating.

This may be deep resentment she is carrying, it will require consistent effort on your part to get this back on track. I would not say this is a HD/LD problem, it is one of resentment.

Honest and open discussion is needed. Ask her if she wants to participate in fixing your marriage and having a happy life together. If she does then you both need to talk and listen to each other. You will both have to step outside your comfort zones to reconnect. You could show her more NSA affection, make her feel like she did all those years ago. She needs to really understand the bond that sex brings to a marriage and stop rejecting you, come to some compromise on how many times for sex a week to start with.

I am pro divorce for sexless marriages usually but yours sounds more about resentment than anything which can be fixed if you both want it to be.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Holland said:


> Sounds like you with held on the emotional side of things for quite some time which has stared this cycle of resentment. It won't be fixed by you simply putting a half felt effort of meeting her emotional needs. It is something that happens often in marriage, men forget to keep treating their wife as they did when they started dating.
> 
> This may be deep resentment she is carrying, it will require consistent effort on your part to get this back on track. I would not say this is a HD/LD problem, it is one of resentment.
> 
> ...



:iagree:


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

ptomczyk11 said:


> However, has anyone gone through the same issues I'm going through? How did you break this vicious cycle?


The fallacy in her argument is that even if you increased the amount of emotional affection, it wouldn't necessary lead to more sex. We see this time and time again. A guy will do everything he can to make his wife feel special, like a queen, etc, and it won't lead to more sex. The emotional satisfaction is enough for her and it doesn't create actual sexual desire. In some cases she may be more willing to give in as a form of gratitude, but she would be just as happy not having sex.

You need to make it clear that regular sex (min 1/week) needs to be part of the marriage or else divorce is an option. Unless there are obvious bad behaviors you're doing (being rude, sloppy, dirty, etc), you shouldn't have to entice her into sex. Don't throw divorce out as a threat. You want to be happy and you want her to be with someone who makes her happy. If you can't make each other happy, then you're better off with other people. Have a serious heart-to-heart and say you can't continue like this. If she's unwilling to change or puts all the responsibility on you (you need to love me more...), seriously consider divorce. If she's not going to make an effort, you won't be able to turn this around.


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## MarriedDude (Jun 21, 2014)

Not sure I have much to add -but I am sure of a few things...

1. Talking to your wife about sex...will NOT lead to more sex. You will not talk her into being attracted enough to want sex as much as you do. 

2. Determine -exactly what is different about your relationship mechanics NOW- compared to when sex was more frequent. I.E., treating her like a queen...meeting all her emotional needs...without any reciprocity...did you do these things before??? 

3. Don't whine, complain, negotiate, argue, cajole, guilt-trip or anything of like when she says no. That always comes off childish and reinforces her belief that she holds all the power/control in your sexual relationship. I'm pretty sure that most women will not be turned on by a whiny guy. 

4. Just because she say's "I'm tired"...doesn't always mean she doesn't want sex. Don't make negative assumptions. No doesn't always mean no...(I'm not talking about abuse or forced sex)...Sometimes no...means, not right now...or that she wants you to pursue a little harder. She's your wife...you know her. Know her limits.

5. If you aren't keeping the momentum going all the time...she's gonna be cold. How often to you initiate affection that doesn't lead to sex? How often do you slap her behind? How often do you tell her how attracted you are? How often to show her that you want to tear her clothes off and get down...and that the only stopping you is x or y....but it's still a struggle because you want her sooooo badly? 

6. Does your wife believe that you are sooo attracted to her, that you could tear those clothes off and take her immediately, anywhere, anytime? Does she feel like a beautiful creature and the object of your desire 24/7? Because, I bet if she did- that would up her Desire as well. 

I might be wrong, this could not work at all for your relationship...But IME....after 24 years of marriage..the physical aspect of our relationship is central to our mutual feelings of being connected, loved, heard and understood..We have sex at least twice a day -often more. My normal end of the day routine has me coming home...going into the bedroom, getting out of my work clothes...and getting a BJ. I'm would say conservatively- I get 7 to 10 BJs a week. We talk on the phone at least 10 times a day. We text almost non-stop. We play little online games throughout the day. We seduce each other...ALL DAY. 

You know what happens when my wife is sick, or anything else comes up that keeps us from having sex??? We kiss, we snuggle together, we do what we can for each other. I don't get mad, I don't argue, b***h, whine or otherwise stamp my feet. I go about the business of life and do what needs to be done. 

Hope some of this helps....but for the love of all that is Holy....Stop arguing with her about sex. Your pretty much pushing a boulder up a mountain there which will simply frustrate and sadden both of you.


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## MarriedDude (Jun 21, 2014)

wilson said:


> The fallacy in her argument is that even if you increased the amount of emotional affection, it wouldn't necessary lead to more sex. We see this time and time again. A guy will do everything he can to make his wife feel special, like a queen, etc, and it won't lead to more sex. The emotional satisfaction is enough for her and it doesn't create actual sexual desire. In some cases she may be more willing to give in as a form of gratitude, but she would be just as happy not having sex.
> 
> *You need to make it clear that regular sex (min 1/week) needs to be part of the marriage or else divorce is an option.*
> 
> ...


AVOID anymore serious heart to heart sex talks.....You will not talk her into wanting sex with you. Unless you have somekind of Vulkan mind powers....It ain't gonna happen


ETA: If you do have some kind of vulcan mind power....Please IM me- That could be a fun skill to have....in a crowded elevator...or plane....or pretty much anywhere


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

wilson said:


> *The fallacy in her argument is that even if you increased the amount of emotional affection, it wouldn't necessary lead to more sex. We see this time and time again. A guy will do everything he can to make his wife feel special, like a queen, etc, and it won't lead to more sex. The emotional satisfaction is enough for her and it doesn't create actual sexual desire. In some cases she may be more willing to give in as a form of gratitude, but she would be just as happy not having sex.*
> 
> You need to make it clear that regular sex (min 1/week) needs to be part of the marriage or else divorce is an option. Unless there are obvious bad behaviors you're doing (being rude, sloppy, dirty, etc), you shouldn't have to entice her into sex. Don't throw divorce out as a threat. You want to be happy and you want her to be with someone who makes her happy. If you can't make each other happy, then you're better off with other people. Have a serious heart-to-heart and say you can't continue like this. If she's unwilling to change or puts all the responsibility on you (you need to love me more...), seriously consider divorce. If she's not going to make an effort, you won't be able to turn this around.


It definitely seems like this sometimes, and for some it's absolutely the case. It's a roll of the dice whether simply providing what she needs on faith will actually get you anywhere. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. The only thing that's definite is that if you DON'T do it, you're not going to make any progress at all. So which is better, a 50% chance of happiness or a 100% chance of misery?


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## Time4Tea (Feb 8, 2015)

Youngatheart - wonderful response. I wish there were a way to "thumbs up" your post.


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## marriedtotrouble (Feb 8, 2015)

Pp


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Well, how is the sex when you have sex? Does she enjoy it? Does she have orgasms? Maybe she's not having as good a time during sex as you are. 

How do you initiate? What is your overall relationship like? Do you two spend quality time together connecting? Do you talk and laugh together, enjoy doing anything together? You both could be somewhat detached from each other, which is another reason sex can become less desirable. 

I think you're wrong that you trying to be more affectionate with her from time to time is truly emotionally fulfilling for her. If affection doesn't come naturally to you, the times you make a point of doing it probably aren't enough. I'm one who needs lots of affection, and if it's not there all the time, I would feel its absence. It would feel like something's missing.

If you're missing the spark you used to have, you have to address whatever current issues are standing between you (all the buried resentments), and you have to refresh the way you two interact with each other. No, things aren't the way they were when you were dating, because neither of you are the same people and your lives aren't the same. That doesn't mean you can't find new ways to appreciate each other, and more things that can bring you together. But you do have to bring some of the fun and joy into your lives as a couple. Right now, I'm guessing sex is more of a minefield than playful or fun.


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## Zouz (May 28, 2014)

Evaluate your personality , deep inside yourself , are you giving enough affection to her ?
If you can give more ; go ahead , but at the same time be assertive , and fair ...

If you are really helping at home and responsibilities really, giving love but your wife is still showing how much LD she can be ; this means one thing : she doesn't Care to make you happy ; if this is an old story , I doubt that she is satisfying herself outside marriage.

Love chemistry can not be taught ; when a wife is LD by nature ( not LD for you) ; if she cares and sacrifice for her husband then she might change ; otherwise ; such a marriage is just a business deal .

I know females who would please their husband even if they have pain ;they are generous ; they love and care ;and when married to a good guy ; such a women will be appraised by her king even if she can't even sleep with him; others will nag a lot before they are even touched ;because sex is not important to them ...

The worst combination , is if your wife is LD , Selfish and Has PD on top of it ...

I believe With one of the Above , sun could shine sometimes ; but with the three , forget about it .

Is she just LD ?


good luck


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

My ex WS never initiated - ever! It was good when it was there in in the early years probably up to when the children arrived. Then it was more rare, but still pretty hot - on occasions. Over time though the frequency plummeted and we drifted apart. It seemed like we were both too tired or too stupid to do anything about the resentment which built up over time. Now she had ready made excuses to reject my advances if it became subject for discussion ie argument! My hints were base and embarrassing and it took me ages to understand that. I started to review how I behaved - even though I was depressed (and had been for years) I felt I was functioning OK but nothing changed. There was no reading on the subject or counselling and yet on rare occasions we would "get it on". Then she had an affair. I did all I could to change myself but to no avail. She couldn't change. I made it clear to her that I could not go on like this. She put out twice without any emotional involvement. I gave up on her last year. She wasn't attracted to me on any level but passed it off has having lost interest in sex - post her affair. I later discovered that she had invested in a new toy and contrary to her lies she was very pleased with it and used it each week. She could fire up OK but not with me. I wish I had known early on that the non-initiation pattern would not auger well for my future intimacy requirements. Game over.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Personally, I think that, when you get to this stage, it's too late... yes, I've seen cases where the marriage has been turned around (there are a few here on TAM), but, to me, it's the exception, not the rule. If you love her and don't want to get divorced, then accept her for who she is... stop getting angry and resentful and enjoy life. Concentrate on your hobbies. Stop putting pressure on her. She might respond to that, she might not. If she doesn't, then it's up to you. You know where the door is...


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## 'CuseGal (Feb 5, 2015)

You need to figure out if she is just LD or LD for you. Do you guys have legitimate chemistry with each other or is the spark gone (if it was ever there)?

My husband and I had some chemistry when we met. It wasn't as strong as the chemistry I'd had with a couple of previous boyfriends (who I'd never slept with BTW), but combined with the fact that I actually loved him, it was enough. But because I am admittedly pretty much a LD person, he was the one who took the initiative most of the time, because I really didn't care one way or the other if we had sex or not. I could have lived without it but because I knew he needed it our schedule was anywhere from once a day early on to maybe 3 times a week after the first few years.

But by the time we had been together 5 years, his behavior had pretty much killed the love and whatever mild chemistry we had left wasn't enough to save our sex life. He treated me like dirt in and out of the bedroom, made me feel worthless on a regular basis, and cheated on me so many times I don't even know how many other women there were. Our sex life went to hell after the first time I found out he was cheating and it's amazing we stayed together as long as we did after that. I not only didn't want to have sex with him, I didn't want him to touch me at all.

I think if you still love her and she still loves you, you need to decide if this issue is worth breaking up over. My husband and I were fine while the love was still there, even though we were the classic HD/LD couple. But once the love is gone I have to question if the marriage is worth saving, even in cases where the sex is still great.


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## hookares (Dec 7, 2011)

The divorce business would soon dry up if all married couples could settle on sex twice per week. The fact of the matter is that if the couple can't find a way to communicate their needs and get the information across to their SO, the success of the union is doomed.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Read Bagdon and neuklas


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## Propel (Aug 1, 2014)

I think you and wife need to agree to change the way you look at your relationship. Make it less transaction in nature, no one likes to be told they need to pay up. Maybe go for something like, 'You know what would make me feel really loved right now? Having sex with you'. And possibly looking into how you communicate when your needs are not being met, in terms of how it makes you feel instead of saying its your fault or you need to do this. Ex. I feel like this when you do this. I think she may not understand yet that her idea of what makes you feel loved is different from what makes you feel loved. She is communicating in her love language and thinks you think the same and prioritize it the same way. Work on correcting this misunderstanding. If you can both agree and commit to simply try for a set time to do the things that make each other happy without keeping score, that maybe your ticket back. As long as you both love each other, want the other to be happy and are committed to making the marriage work then there is hope. 

Its feels to me like as a couple the communication needs some more work, so that you both can get what you need, without a war of attrition. I recommend doing a google search on how to communicate your needs in a relationship and looking for other resources that help develop those skills.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

If I've read your narrative correctly, is sounds like you're married to someone who expects more than they're willing to give back.




ptomczyk11 said:


> ....however, now that we are married when I initiate sex I get turned down more.....
> 
> ....however, I hate the way she reacts to the same situations when they are reversed. Instead of saying, yeah babe I'd love to do that, I get the "do we have to do to that...



We all have our quirks and this actually seems to be an important component of the emotional well being of some people, (From their upbringing, I would guess..) so it's not necessarily a bad thing, provided you can live with it.

The trick is going to be maintaining some semblance of balance, without looking like a horse's ass in the process.

From what I've seen (Not an expert..) these people tend to be classic over-achievers who are crushed by the idea that they're not perfect (Or reasonably close to it) and your observation about her wanting to be "Above average" and a "Great wife" sounds pretty typical.

So one thing to avoid is *directly* calling that worldview into question. Our worldviews help to keep us sane and people will defend them at almost any cost, even if it means denying reality. Arguments about sex need to stop immediately. 

On the flip side of the coin though, she probably cares far more about your high opinion of her than you realize.

Does she understand what you consider a "Good wife" to be? --And not by anything that could remotely be construed as criticism....


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## ptomczyk11 (Feb 9, 2015)

Thanks for the replies everyone, great advice!

I know I have to learn to still be emotional/affectionate with her no matter what and not take her declines in having sex so personal and then in turn being cold towards her.

But it's just so frustrating to me; I never thought I would be pleasuring myself as often as I do being married. I was having more sex when I was single; what a disappointing turn of events they don't warn you when getting married...haha.

I love having sex with her and she has even said "why can't you just hug and kiss me, why does it always have to lead to sex". To which my response is, "I can't help it, when I kiss/hug you turn me on and I want to have sex". So with her saying that I have stopped trying to turn it into sex all the time this way she doesn't perceive that it always leads to sex. Meanwhile, I walk away being still very turned on but just have to not go into the sex direction.

She's very smart and I can even recall her saying in past conversations "I know guys need to have sex more often than girls do because you are wired that way". And I'm like yes that's exactly true, sex for guys is like brushing your teeth in the morning, I just need to have it to release the pressure valve. We would then talk about, well how often do you think you would want it to be satisfied and I would be like if we could pull off 1-2 week; it would be great! But what drives me crazy is she is fully aware of this and we have even talked about a schedule but nothing changes.

She even goes to say that having sex 1-2 week there is a lot more effort involved than me just being more emotional/affectionate with her. And I can't punish her by being cold towards her if we don't have sex. Which in one way I can agree with her because there are days where we both get home late and sex is not an option because she then goes straight to bed. But in the same breath I feel like it's a also an easy cop-out for her to say.

I snore pretty loud and lately we've been sleeping in separate beds because she's a light sleeper. However, I loved when we would be in the same bed because I could cuddle with her and usually in the mornings it was a perfect opportunity to have sex. Which she says she doesn't like having sex in the morning but I know based on past experiences if we don't have sex right then and there; when later in the day comes I'll start getting the "i'm tired" responses and then I know it's out the door. Anyway, on the weekends when we have nothing to do she used to come in to my bed and we would cuddle which led to sex. But what annoys me now is she gets up and then just goes downstairs; which bothers me because I get the feeling that she's is doing this just to avoid sex.

In the last fight/heated conversation we had; she mentioned that it's unfair to her for me to be so cold towards her when we don't have sex and that sex is the only thing that makes me feel close to her and be more affectionate. It makes her feel used and she resents me for it and doesn't want to have sex with me. Which I agree 100% and I have to work on being the same person even if we can't have sex.

But what drives me nuts is I can say the same thing in reverse but then I look like a pathetic husband that only wants sex. I could say it's unfair to me for you to deny me sex. It's a losing battle which I've learned now, so when we get into these discussions I never mention "sex" anymore because then it just spirals down the rabbit hole of how all I want is "sex". And looking at this in the most basic form, I feel like saying "yes, exactly sex is great for me and makes me feel happy and in turn makes me more affectionate towards you"...there is nothing more to it but I can't say that because then all I care about is "sex".

And just to point out a recent example, she goes to bed before me so I usually lay with her for a bit / cuddle before she goes to bed (footnote: i never try to have sex with her at this point because it's a losing proposition; so i just try to give her the affection she needs before bed). She also leaves before me for work in the morning and playfully I was like I thought you were going to start my car in the morning because it was snowing. I didn't care if she did or didn't, and she was like omg I was going to do that and I was thinking to myself he would have thought I was such a good wife if I did that for him. And in the back of my mind, I'm like yes that would have been very nice but it wouldn't have made me think you were a good or bad wife; it would have been a nice gesture. But what I really wanted to say is "sex please" would make you an outstanding wife but I don't want to go down that road.

I feel men are wired so simple compared to women, it reminds me of that Dave Chappelle line from one of his stand-ups:

"I see magazines in the grocery store, says on the cover "100 Ways to Please Your Man" by some lady. Come on, man. Ain't no 100 ways. That list is four things long. Just suck his d**k, play with his balls, fix him a sandwich, and don't talk so much and he'll be happy!"

Hahaha...I know this is just a joke he says but there is a lot of truth in it; we don't require much to be happy but "sex" is definitely a priority, well at least to me it is I can't speak for all men.

Thank you, again!


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

> And I'm like yes that's exactly true, sex for guys is like brushing your teeth in the morning, I just need to have it to release the pressure valve.


I don't know any woman who wants to be used as a pressure release valve, or that wants to hear that having sex is like brushing your teeth. It leads to this:



> It makes her feel used and she resents me for it and doesn't want to have sex with me.


Your wife feels used, that you are using her for sex. There doesn't seem to be any thought in your posts to whether she is actually enjoying the sex you do have or your approach to it. Sounds like she isn't. And, at this point, because of the years of resentment, it's not likely to get any better because this sex has turned into a traumatic event for her rather than a sexy one.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

ptomczyk11 said:


> ...I know I have to learn to still be emotional/affectionate with her no matter what and not take her declines in having sex so personal and then in turn being cold towards her.
> 
> ..I love having sex with her and she has even said "why can't you just hug and kiss me, why does it always have to lead to sex". ... So with her saying that I have stopped trying to turn it into sex all the time this way she doesn't perceive that it always leads to sex. Meanwhile, I walk away being still very turned on but just have to not go into the sex direction.
> 
> ...


One of the standard sex therapy exercises for couples is Sensate focus exercises. The key to this is abstaining from sex for 3 to 4 weeks, while you build back up to sex after working on feeling and giving sensations, first non-sexual, then based on arousal and finally sexual stimulation. 

If you wife says touch always leads to sex, you might want to investigate some typical sensate focus exercises so both you and she can understand the difference. The Gottmans in their research feel that touch and daily bonding rituals are important elements in a sucessful marriage. You might want to tell her that you want to work with her on reserving some days for just touch with no chance of sex happening.

It sounds like your wife is pretty clear to you on her need for more and consistent respect/affection in order for her to be mentally ready for sex.

One of the things I tried, was giving my wife unconditional love. I was lucky in that I had a great dog to mentor me. Unconditional love is pretty overpowering. It means showing your wife that you love her even when she disappoints you. You really need to internalize you unconditional love for your wife, as a spouse can often tell when their partner is not being sincere. You might give this a try. I used affirmations of my unconditional love for my wife, several times a day while commuting to and from work and at lunch and while I was going to sleep at night. In part (along with a lot of help from a sex therapist) it helped me give my wife the space she needed to drop her anger at me and change from a Sex Starved Marriage where we hadn't had sex for months into a marriage where we have sex a couple times a week.

Good luck to you.


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

Let me solve this chicken and egg situation for you, this downward spiral: if you don't feel emotionally connected to her because of a lack of sex, that means you feel emotional connection with your penis. But honestly, you don't. This is a combination of ego and sexual needs. You will have to love her with your heart; the penis comes after. If you have kids or parents or anyone else especially important in your life, you don't need to have sex with them to be connected. Now, go connect with your wife from your heart. 

Good luck!

Think of it this way: there's such a thing as loving someone, but not sexing them. Sex is not a verb. Love is.


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

Sexual Intimacy vs. Emotional Intimacy
*
Sexual Intimacy*

There are times when we hunger for sexual connection, and the longing is physical. Not only might we yearn for intercourse, but we want the press and presence of another person in all his or her sensual splendor - the tastes, scents, sounds, textures - and naturally, visual aspects enhance the experience.

In sex, we let down barriers, and we permit another person into our most private personal spaces.

Sexual intimacy involves a degree of vulnerability and trust - for some more than others, and in some scenarios more than others. (Have you ever considered why a "quickie" with your clothes on may be "hot" but less intimate than slowly undressing with your partner? Think about it. It's a matter of exposure and vulnerability.)

There are times we want (and engage in) sex, not lovemaking. This may occur with no "attachment" whatsoever, with some affection, or with friendship (friends with benefits). As adults, if we're paying attention, we understand the nuances of sharing parts - not hearts.

*Emotional Intimacy*

There are times when we seek an emotional bond - being accepted for ourselves, loved for ourselves, sharing our happiness or for that matter, tough times. We crave that state of being that is all about closeness, trust, and comfort. We want a special connection with another person at a deep emotional level.

Psychology Today describes emotional intimacy as closeness that requires:

"... a high level of transparency and openness. This involves a degree of vulnerability that can feel uncomfortable or anxiety-producing to many of us."

When achieved in a relationship, emotional intimacy may act as:

"... a formula for enhanced emotional well-being, and physical health as well..."

Note that emotional intimacy does not require physical affection, though certainly for most of us it is enhanced by something as simple as a kiss on the cheek or holding a hand.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

You've been very honest about how you feel and that's refreshing. Look over what you wrote and put yourself in your wife's place. She needs a show of affection and probably the feeling from you that she is special and that is why you want to have sex with her. You want sex to relieve yourself like pulling up at a filling station. The Dave Chappelle type of sex - a service. That's not partnered sex, it's self-centered and insulting. Who wants to be a filling satiation and toothbrush. Your wife is alive and has feelings and you don't seem to realize that.

From your expressed feelings about sex - its a pressure release, makes you feel great, makes you willing to be affection with your sexual partner and you would like her to give it up, feed you and shut up. 

She may feel used because she is being used. You could have a series of ONS with women you meet in bars and be happy. It would be easier for you, you get your release, brush your junk and have a nice day.


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

Catherine602 said:


> It would be easier for you, you get your release, brush your junk and have a nice day.


:rofl: Brush your junk!?! That is the funniest thing I've read on TAM!


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## ptomczyk11 (Feb 9, 2015)

Thanks for the reply!

Of course I'm not using my wife as a "pressure release valve"; I'm just using that as an analogy showing how "sex" is more of a biological / mechanical need that men crave a lot more than women do because of our crazy high testosterone levels. I'm sure a lot of men can relate that "sex" is on our minds all the time.

That's the thing; she enjoys the sex very much and has told me so numerous times before. She always says that even if I don't want to have sex if I put her in the mood with my advances she enjoys it just as much but for her and I guess other women out there she doesn't require it that often.

I think the reason she feels resentment towards me is in the cold front I put up when we go 4+ weeks without having sex and each day that passes just makes me feel unfulfilled. It feels like the Seinfeld episode where Elaine stops having sex and her mind gets cluttered and the garbage bags keep piling up in her head...haha. I feel the same way the longer without sex we go the more I feel less connected with her.

Jerry: Wait a second, I know what's happening. The no sex thing is having a reverse effect on you.
Elaine: What? What are you talking about?
Jerry: To a woman, sex is like the garbage man. You just take for granted the fact that any time you put some trash out on the street, a guy in a jumpsuit's gonna come along and pick it up. But now, it's like a garbage strike. The bags are piling up in your head. The sidewalk is blocked. Nothing's getting through. You're stupid.
Elaine: I don't understand.
Jerry: Exactly.

But this is something I definitely have to work on; the ability to not be different if for example we go 3 months without sex; which is something that is very hard for me to do at this point in time.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

ptomczyk11 said:


> But it's just so frustrating to me....


By all means, vent if it makes you feel better. The choir will gladly listen.  

From the standpoint of "Fairness," it is frustrating to be expected to cheerfully and willingly take care of someone's emotional needs for purely altruistic reasons when the mere thought of doing the same for you is not only utterly alien to them, it will be viewed as a character flaw. 

But this isn't a game of checkers or a barter system or anything else that follows a linear set of rules. The more you think about it in those terms, the more frustrated you're going to be.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

ptomczyk11 said:


> Thanks for the reply!
> 
> Of course I'm not using my wife as a "pressure release valve"; I'm just using that as an analogy showing how "sex" is more of a biological / mechanical need that men crave a lot more than women do because of our crazy high testosterone levels. I'm sure a lot of men can relate that "sex" is on our minds all the time.


SHE might think you are using her as a release valve if you say it that way, or something like that. If you talk to her about your mechanical need for sex, then she will believe you're only interested in relieving yourself, just like your mechanical need to urinate.


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## ptomczyk11 (Feb 9, 2015)

Thanks for the replies! 

Thank you for letting me vent it definitely helps, but I'm also getting some great advice from everyone that I have to start applying to my relationship.

I know my toothbrush/pressure release analogies, comedian joke references, and my need of "craving sex" makes me sound like a sex fiend but I'm just trying to be honest with what my needs are. I'm not looking for sex every day, but I would be content if we could at least make an effort for once a week; I don't think that is something that is unattainable. 

I've never cheated on my wife nor do I intend to; she's the one I want to share my life with, but I just wished we had more sex like we use to.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

There are many sexless marriage threads on TAM. If you keep yours going, John and Boston Bruin Fan might chime in with the story of their frustration and misery. We feel we know their wives because they have described them so long. We don't really know your wife. What makes her tick or winds her watch is unclear.

Do you think she is low drive and would be with any man?

Why don't you have children? If your marriage goes months without sex now, just wait till you have children.

You really should read neuklas and Bagdon. Both succeeded in getting sex back into their marriages. Bagdon's wife no longer loved him and had begun to think of other men. She had not cheated but she was fantasizing.

Your wife may masturbate and think about the alpha dude who discovers that she is amazing.

Between neuklas and his wife there was some distance. He increased the distance to create uncertainty. She began to initiate sex. 

To some psychological strategies to create a need for a mate to win back and bond anew reek of manipulation. But if you consider the idea of dating your wife, isn't that manipulation? Men go on dates, hiding the desire for sex until a woman, who may also be horny, feels emotionally attracted. You are not attractive to your wife and that hurts.

There is also a woman who was a former LD spouse. GettingIt is her name, I think. She is full of regret for starving her husband. They rediscovered each other sexually. They are also in love.

What are your hobbies? Are you in shape?

Are you overweight?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

pto

You have a huge issue. If she's letting it go over a month - at your ages - she either doesn't respect you or isn't attracted to you or both. 

A month? Seriously? 

Are you in shape? The same shape as when you two met?

Do you have children? 

Who is the primary breadwinner in your family?





ptomczyk11 said:


> Thanks for the replies!
> 
> Thank you for letting me vent it definitely helps, but I'm also getting some great advice from everyone that I have to start applying to my relationship.
> 
> ...


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

You don't sound at all like you have an unusual sex drive. It's normal but somewhat immature for sustainable partnered sex. If that is true, then your responses don't indicate that you get it. Your wife feels used, you have to address this, IMO.

Sex may be good for an orgasm for her once in a while but not worth the feeling of being used. She seems to be looking for an emotional connection with you, love making. If she wants an orgasm, she can get one without feeling used. It needs a battery instead of a samitch and is indifferent to communication. 

How old are you and your wife and what is your sexual background. Do you find that masturbation gives you the release that you crave? You feed yourself and enjoy the silence of being alone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## chaos (Mar 9, 2012)

From Dr Robert Glover's book *No More Mr Nice Guy*. I hope it helps you:



> *Saying "No" To Bad Sex Helps Nice Guys Get The Sex They Want*
> 
> When it comes to sex, Nice Guys are consummate bottom feeders. They settle for scraps and come back begging for more. Nice Guys settle for distorted images of bodies in pornography. They settle for the faceless sex of 900 numbers and chat rooms. They settle for trying to persuade unavailable people to begrudgingly be sexual with them. They settle for quick, compulsive masturbation. They settle for passionless, mechanical lovemaking. They settle for trances and fantasy. Nice Guys do a lot of settling.
> 
> ...


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

A year ago my relationship was in similar circumstances, OP, but we managed to turn it around. Notice I said "we" because it took effort from both of us.

I would tell you that my wife had lost attraction and respect towards me, just as Mem has indicated in your case. He knows my story as he was pretty instrumental in helping me along the way.

In order to turn those things around, you are going to have to take a long, hard look at yourself and decide to become a better you. For me, it took laying down alcohol and porn, getting myself back into shape, knocking off the passive aggressive nice guy crap, and treating my wife like I actually wanted her to be my lover. Then it just took patience for her to come back to me.

Start with this: What is the part of you that you that you are not proud of when you have to look yourself in the proverbial mirror? 

But you have to remember that you must do it for you, not for her. In my case, it led to my wife falling in love with me again.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> Do you find that masturbation gives you the release that you crave?


You understand male physiology, right? --It's not like he has a choice about this...


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

I am not sure I like the idea of a declared sexual moratorium. In essence, the moratorium is also a form of distancing.

If the OP did what Bagdon did, would it work. Far Side Junky also took control. 

Since you are not getting sex in the morning, why not get up earlier and work out?

Go to bed earlier. Cut out porn. Read in bed. Stop initiating sex. Listen carefully to your wife. Be fully engaged in communication. Don't get sucked into shyte tests. Learn to see them and avoid failing them. 

Do you have some office job that you talk about? Stop sharing work frustrations with her.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

ocotillo said:


> You understand male physiology, right? --It's not like he has a choice about this...


He does not need a woman to get a physiologic release, though. That's the difference between partnered sex and solo sex. There is another living, feeling person that needs to be considered. I think he needs to takes that into account. If he can do that, his sex life will improve. I bet that is all she is asking for. He can use masturbation for physiologic release and make love to his wife.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

chaos said:


> From Dr Robert Glover's book *No More Mr Nice Guy*. I hope it helps you:


This is good for two emotionally healthy and reasonable people, who care about, love and respect each other. Maybe they let the day to day concerns take priority over their relationship. One person lost sight of what makes their lives together possible.

But what about a spouse who sees the moratorium as a welcomed relief and something that they have been hoping for? 

Before stopping sex, the former nice guy has to consider the risks and make sure he knows which group he falls into. For some spouses, sexlessness for 6 months is the beginning of no sex ever again in the marriage. This calls for contingencies if things fall the wrong way.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Catherine602 said:


> This is good for two emotionally healthy and reasonable people, who care about, love and respect each other. Maybe they let the day to day concerns take priority over their relationship. One person lost sight of what makes their lives together possible.
> 
> But what about a spouse who sees the moratorium as a welcomed relief and something that they have been hoping for?
> 
> Before stopping sex, the former nice guy has to consider the risks and make sure he knows which group he falls into. For some spouses, sexlessness for 6 months is on the road no no more sex in the marriage ever again. This calls for contingencies if things fall the wrong way.


Could not agree more. I've gone 6 months and more without sex before. Didn't faze my wife in the slightest. We'd gone for long stretches before leading up to it and like the OP I got tired of being the only person to ever initiate. So on a few occasions I just stopped initiating altogether. She didn't come knocking looking for sex because I gave her space--she just took the space and enjoyed it. This continues to this day--sex will ONLY happen if I initiate, and it's still not a slam dunk.


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## Dogbert (Jan 10, 2015)

Catherine602 said:


> This is good for two emotionally healthy and reasonable people, who care about, love and respect each other. Maybe they let the day to day concerns take priority over their relationship. One person lost sight of what makes their lives together possible.
> 
> But what about a spouse who sees the moratorium as a welcomed relief and something that they have been hoping for?
> 
> Before stopping sex, the former nice guy has to consider the risks and make sure he knows which group he falls into. For some spouses, sexlessness for 6 months is the beginning of no sex ever again in the marriage. This calls for contingencies if things fall the wrong way.



The LD wife may see it as a "welcomed relief" but it is actually a taking back of his personal power. Once this happens, many wives begin to realize that they can no longer use sex to control their husbands, and that it may signal the beginning of the end of the marriage.

You know that sex is not about simply sexual relief but of an emotional connection that bonds two people together. Intercourse is not even mandatory to create this bond because it is just a part that encompasses other ways of physical intimacy.

To again quote Dr Glover:



> A sexual moratorium can have many benefits:
> 
> *Helps break dysfunction cycles.
> l
> ...


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

If you write more about your wife's personality and your relationship dynamic, you will answer many of your own questions. You may even discover new ones.

Sex has become a focal point in a power struggle. Your wife may be dissatisfied with the way you make love, but it is possible that she wants you to a different person, the person she thought you were before marriage.

Did she expect you to get raises and promotions at work to affirm her choice of you as the provider of protein?

You need to become a mystery man to yourself and her. Get up and go to the gym or pool before work. Let her wake up without you. Text message good morning to her.

Does she say "I love you" often? How often do you declare it ?


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Your wife has lost respect and attraction for you because you are not fulfilling her needs. She thinks you only want her for sex. Of course this is not true and she should be fulfilling your needs too, but she is in a bad place sexually. And she is right that having sex with you two times a week is a lot harder (no pun intended) for her than you showing her a bit of emotional suppport. I hope you can see the difference.

You need to take the pressure off. Connect with her in a non sexual way. Don't initiate. Give her space for a bit. Allow her to regain respect and attraction for you. It might take some time and it might never happen, but you don't have much choice, apart from divorcing her.

This is from someone who was in your position. Sex is nowhere near to what I would like (once a week instead of once a month), but at least the pressure is off, she is not in a bad place sexually anymore and, although she is very LD because of her meds, she wants to have sex. Before, she would run a mile. It's an massive improvement. I know she'll never regain her desire because of her condition, therefore I've accepted her for what she is, despite her not wanting therapy to fix herself. Not sure I will be here forever (probably not), but I'm making the best out of our relationship at the moment. 

Your situation seems fairly uncomplicated. Try it out. You have nothing to lose...


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## Joey2k (Oct 3, 2014)

In Absentia said:


> And she is right that having sex with you two times a week is a lot harder (no pun intended) for her than you showing her a bit of emotional suppport. I hope you can see the difference.


I'm sick of hearing how hard it is for some people to have sex. WTH is so hard about it??? Why is it so difficult to do the most enjoyable thing two people can do with each other? It's probably the easiest part of a relationship, certainly easier than managing intangible concepts like "intimacy", "emotional connection", etc. 

If it's that hard for you to drum up the desire for or interest in sex, especially with the person you are supposed to love more than anyone else, and if you find yourself feeling like that on a regular basis, you probably shouldn't be in that relationship.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Joey2k said:


> I'm sick of hearing how hard it is for some people to have sex. WTH is so hard about it??? Why is it so difficult to do the most enjoyable thing two people can do with each other? It's probably the easiest part of a relationship, certainly easier than managing intangible concepts like "intimacy", "emotional connection", etc.
> 
> If it's that hard for you to drum up the desire for or interest in sex, especially with the person you are supposed to love more than anyone else, and if you find yourself feeling like that on a regular basis, you probably shouldn't be in that relationship.


Sex is not just an animalistic need. Yes, it's easy, but without the right connection, it doesn't work the way your are describing it. If your relationship is working on an emotional level, sex will be part of it. If it isn't, sex will be the hardest part... people are on TAM because there is a problem and sexual problems are just the tip of the iceberg, a symptom...


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Joey2k said:


> I'm sick of hearing how hard it is for some people to have sex. WTH is so hard about it??? Why is it so difficult to do the most enjoyable thing two people can do with each other? It's probably the easiest part of a relationship, certainly easier than managing intangible concepts like "intimacy", "emotional connection", etc.
> 
> If it's that hard for you to drum up the desire for or interest in sex, especially with the person you are supposed to love more than anyone else, and if you find yourself feeling like that on a regular basis, you probably shouldn't be in that relationship.


I don't understand why you ask this question. You know why it's so hard. That's the cultural norm you set up and enjoy. If you want a wife who has an easy and fun approach to sex and is not caught up in emotions and intimacy, then you have to marry her. She has managed that attitude in spite of cultural norms. Most woman learn to be guarded about having sexual fun with no emotions or intimacy. They don't suddenly throw off what they learned because their partner find it annoying. They worked too hard to decrease sexual interest.

There are really bad names for woman who have sex too easily. Men have fun sex with women before they pick a mate, but they disrespect the ones that are easy and fun. They pick a woman who makes it hard to have sex and embrace intimacy and emotional connection. So you get what you get. It's is hard because we make it hard. 

The attitudes about sex does not come out of the minds of woman, it's imposed on men and woman. You can't have easy sex after marriage if you did not welcome it before marriage.


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## Joey2k (Oct 3, 2014)

Catherine602 said:


> *There are really bad names for woman who have sex too easily.* Men have fun sex with women before they pick a mate, but they disrespect the ones that are easy and fun. They pick a woman who makes it hard to have sex and embrace intimacy and emotional connection. So you get what you get. It's is hard because we make it hard.


Not within the context of a relationship.

(And those bad names come more from other women than from men)

And no, we don't pick women who are hard to have sex with as mates. That's definitely not a quality we look for.

Having sex too early has little to do with whether a man sees you as LTR material. Whether you are easy to get along with and enjoyable to be around is much more important. A woman who is enjoyable to be around will be much more likely to get and keep a man, no matter how quickly she has sex. A woman who is overly needy, b***y, or otherwise a PitA will find fewer men want to be involved with her, no matter how quickly she has sex.


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## ptomczyk11 (Feb 9, 2015)

LongWalk said:


> If the OP did what Bagdon did, would it work. Far Side Junky also took control.


Can you send me the links for Bagdom and Far Side Junky that you are referring to here?



Catherine602 said:


> Before stopping sex, the former nice guy has to consider the risks and make sure he knows which group he falls into. For some spouses, sexlessness for 6 months is the beginning of no sex ever again in the marriage. This calls for contingencies if things fall the wrong way.





Fozzy said:


> Could not agree more. I've gone 6 months and more without sex before. Didn't faze my wife in the slightest. We'd gone for long stretches before leading up to it and like the OP I got tired of being the only person to ever initiate. So on a few occasions I just stopped initiating altogether. She didn't come knocking looking for sex because I gave her space--she just took the space and enjoyed it. This continues to this day--sex will ONLY happen if I initiate, and it's still not a slam dunk.





Dogbert said:


> The LD wife may see it as a "welcomed relief" but it is actually a taking back of his personal power. Once this happens, many wives begin to realize that they can no longer use sex to control their husbands, and that it may signal the beginning of the end of the marriage.


I agree with all the above. I'm torn on what direction I should take to get me to a place where I'm not thinking about this all the time.

I like the "Mr. Nice Guy" approach of not focusing/initiating sex and taking a sexual moratorium to focus on my personal self; I'm basically already participating in a mini-sexual moratorium so what's another 5 months...haha. During this time I'll still provide her with the emotional/affectionate needs she requires to be happy. But just like Fozzy and Catherine602 stated above, I can see this being the end of "sex" in my marriage because of the LD my wife has it wouldn't even phase her. I would love for her to have an epiphany and be like we haven't had sex in X months but I don't think she would even notice.

Maybe this "Mr. Nice Guy" approach will help me get my personal power back which would be nice for myself and not have to rely on my wife controlling me with "sex" but like Dogbert mentioned this could be the end of the marriage. 

*So where does this leave me if I take this "Mr. Nice Guy" approach?*
Now I'm focusing my attention on other aspects of my life instead of constantly obsessing about having "sex" with my wife. I will continue to fill up her love tank with emotional/affectionate needs. Which would then leave her being happy and me feeling more distant / unsatisfied in my sexless marriage. This "Mr. Nice Guy" approach basically seems to me of the first steps of being more independent and leading down being single again.

I want to do the "Mr Nice Guy" approach and have things turn around with my wife making sexual advances toward me just like Aaron experienced, but if doesn't go down this path and back fires on me I'm basically molding myself to reenter the single lifestyle again.

I could also see this "Mr Nice Guy" approach working where maybe she does initiate a sexual advance towards me by following this, and let's say we have sex I feel like we would just fall back into another period of "sexless marriage". I can't see this having an effect where we would just start increasing the volume of sex we have if I go through this sexual moratorium.

What' my other approach besides "Mr Nice Guy"? Do I just keep on pursuing, get denied, rinse, repeat...until there's success?

I don't want to be this guy begging for sex and when we do have it, it's more of a chore instead of the passion of wanting to have sex with each other. 

"I want you to want to do the dishes - (Jennifer Aniston) The Breakup". 

I want you to want to have sex with me. I want you to be satisfied by having sex with me. I always want her to orgasm when we have sex because I want it to be as enjoyable to her as it is for me.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

Read MMSLP. Find out what you are doing wrong.

Doing more chores won't help, either, unless you are really not doing anything.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> You know why it's so hard. That's the cultural norm you set up and enjoy. If you want a wife who has an easy and fun approach to sex and is not caught up in emotions and intimacy, then you have to marry her.


Catherine, do you think sexual repression affects women differently than men? (Honest question)

The reason I ask and the reason I would be confused on this point too is because it is not hard to find sexually repressive environments in the U.S. 

A number of religions openly forbid premarital sex; A few excommunicate members for it and some even practice extreme forms of shunning afterwards. 

These groups have almost completely insulated themselves from the societal double standard you describe (i.e. Men are not allowed to have fun sex before marriage.) and yet couples experience the exact same problems as the rest of the population in pretty much the same proportions.


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## neuklas (Jun 13, 2013)

ptomczyk11 said:


> Now I'm focusing my attention on other aspects of my life instead of constantly obsessing about having "sex" with my wife. I will continue to fill up her love tank with emotional/affectionate needs. Which would then leave her being happy and me feeling more distant / unsatisfied in my sexless marriage. This "Mr. Nice Guy" approach basically seems to me of the first steps of being more independent and leading down being single again.
> 
> I want to do the "Mr Nice Guy" approach and have things turn around with my wife making sexual advances toward me just like Aaron experienced, but if doesn't go down this path and back fires on me I'm basically molding myself to reenter the single lifestyle again.
> 
> ...


What's the definition of insanity?

Here's what you should do:

1. Stop talking to her about sex.
2. Do not mope around the house.
3. Do fun things that make you happy. Go without her. Do not ask permission. Just go.
4. Do not ask for her approval. 
5. Be cheerful. Be fun. Be confident. Be all these things while being independent.
6. Watch and listen.

Here's what you will do, at least for the immediate future:
1. Keep expressing self doubt on this board for awhile.
2. Remain indecisive, but you will couch it in terms of not wanting to make a mistake or make things worse.
3. Allow your self doubt and indecisiveness to be perceived by her at home.
4. Continue asking permission to have sexual relations with your wife.
5. Remain frustrated, angry, and resentful.

You want things to change? Change yourself. When you do, you will either see her happily at her side or your won't. When you get to the point that you don't care whether she's on board your train or not, I predict you'll look back and realize you have everything you want.


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## Zouz (May 28, 2014)

This is really a very interresting thread , because it is going deeper and deeper ..

I believe we all are shaped in our childhood ; we become who we are ...

what works for a couplle might not work for others...

I can see very important facts to summarize :

-Any good husband , should try to resolve similar issue by listening , being affectionaist , help in services , give unconditional love , etc ....

when he does all this and things doesn't work; it is worth analyzing the cause ...

If the wife is only LD , but a giver type ; he might succeed ...

selfish but HD , will be ok sometimes ....

But if she is LD and selfish , there is no way on earth to make a real wife out of her .

I was lucky enough to have a selfish ,LD and Borderline wife ; I wasted 17 years in unconditional love , and the Bullxhit .
I red hundreds of books ....

I recall one time , I spent a full year pleasing her ;didn't bother about sex , suppressed my HD for a year , and accepted the couple of occasions per month or 6 weeks ...
at the end of this year , I just broke a hand ; had few operations , and after few weeks I became better ; I felt one night needing more than a hug ; so I tried to initiate ...
To tell the truth she didn't refuse , but just critisized me to hell when I proposed having her on top of me as it is easier ; her answer was straight forward , if you can't make it missionary position don't do it ...

since few years , I am on treatment for a pituitary tumor ; one of the medecines triggers me so hard , to an extent that I start sweating because I am aroused...

When I tried not to correlate the medical part , to avoid making her feel mechnaical about ; results were catastrophic; she will be more receptive on any day but that day of the week ; and when |I told her once , well the doc prescribed for me a new med ; one of the side effects is climbing walls  ; so whenever you feel like to , lets time it once per month ...

the result was after that :" can u make it faster ....why r u taking too long ..."


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

JMHO

women who never initiate sex with there husband/lover is because somewhere along the way they lost respect and desire for them.

it might be because the man is poor in bed and the woman can't bring herself to have the your crappy in bed conversation with him so she represses it hoping that some day he will all of a sudden become don wan.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Bagdon's wife is a writer. I gather she was smart observant, critical. He is a sound engineer at a university who earned extra money consulting, according to my memory.

You can find neuklas's thread by clicking on his name (see post above).


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

neuklas said:


> What's the definition of insanity?
> 
> Here's what you should do:
> 
> ...


This is great advice, but much easier said than done. I won't dispute its effectiveness if you can pull it off. The question a lot of times is how you get yourself to a point of "not caring whether she's on board your train or not" without either purposefully disconnecting or letting your resentment drive you to that point. For someone who actually still loves their wife, do you really want to disconnect from them? If you don't, resentment probably will force it to happen anyway. So by the point where you look back and realize you have everything you want, it's only because you no longer want your wife to be part of it anyway. Maybe that's a win, but it still seems kind of sad.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

Fozzy said:


> This is great advice, but much easier said than done. I won't dispute its effectiveness if you can pull it off. The question a lot of times is how you get yourself to a point of "not caring whether she's on board your train or not" without either purposefully disconnecting or letting your resentment drive you to that point. For someone who actually still loves their wife, do you really want to disconnect from them? If you don't, resentment probably will force it to happen anyway. So by the point where you look back and realize you have everything you want, it's only because you no longer want your wife to be part of it anyway. Maybe that's a win, but it still seems kind of sad.


It can be done. I have been working on this for at least 2 years. It's not necessarily a disconnect, it's simply being content in and of yourself. It's showing your wife through ACTION that if she left tomorrow you would be fine, emotionally or otherwise. I went so far as to tell my wife that if she, along the way, stopped loving me or did not want to stay married, "go for it." I told her that if being happy did not include me, that's OK. I can find someone else.

I never disconnected, I just became (becoming) an independent, self reliant, self controlled, strong man.


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## Zouz (May 28, 2014)

chillymorn said:


> JMHO
> 
> women who never initiate sex with there husband/lover is because somewhere along the way they lost respect and desire for them.
> 
> it might be because the man is poor in bed and the woman can't bring herself to have the your crappy in bed conversation with him so she represses it hoping that some day he will all of a sudden become don wan.



The first sentence is contradictory by itself : never initiate from the start because lost desire in partner 2hr after the vow!

and she run away because hubby is poor in Bed .

yes maybe poor, suffering , but definetly not in bed ; An HD partner , will do everything for sometimes hours to start the cold engine ; and surprisingly when it starts she enjoys it ...

But Pufff ; everything disappears once she remember that she is LD and will try her best to get any other satsifaction in return ; she will ask for services because she gave one ...

Well , truth is , the Bitsh is the one who break vows everyday ;though she keeps her vag1na clean ...


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## Dogbert (Jan 10, 2015)

An emotional disconnect is not such a bad thing IF its purpose is to starve the destructive emotions of resentment, anger and bitterness and not to punish the LD spouse. Once those get taken care of, then we can be free to look for solutions. We can then express to our LD spouse, without blaming, the emotional of importance of sex - not intercourse - to us and how it can benefit BOTH. If after this, the LD spouse acts like "it went one in one ear and out the other" then the HD can decide whether he/she would be better served to separate or divorce. The LD spouse will then have nobody to blame but him/herself.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

Dogbert said:


> An emotional disconnect is not such a bad thing IF its purpose is to starve the destructive emotions of resentment, anger and bitterness and not to punish the LD spouse. Once those get taken care of, then we can be free to look for solutions. We can then express to our LD spouse, without blaming, the emotional of importance of sex - not intercourse - to us and how it can benefit BOTH. If after this, the LD spouse acts like "it went one in one ear and out the other" then the HD can decide whether he/she would be better served to separate or divorce. The LD spouse will then have nobody to blame but him/herself.


This is true. I noticed that in the past I would say "I love you" every friggen time I got off the phone with my wife. I now limit myself to maybe 2 or 3 times a week. It's not that I'm trying to punish my LD wife, I'm trying to be selective with my emotional actions toward her. After sex, I ALWAYS say I love you to my wife when it REALLY means something, at least to me.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Joey2k said:


> Not within the context of a relationship.
> 
> (And those bad names come more from other women than from men)
> 
> ...


It seems unreasonable to expect a woman to change suddenly from a sexually controlled person to a sexually free person for the benefit of her partner in a relationship. It may be possible for 2 yrs or so when the relationship is new but difficult to maintain if one person expects a miracle and the other is struggling to be normal. . 

You can't really be angry with women, be angry with a culture that perpetrates these dysfunctional attitudes. Anything that effects women effects men. If its good, we both benefit, if its bad, we both suffer.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Dogbert said:


> An emotional disconnect is not such a bad thing IF its purpose is to starve the destructive emotions of resentment, anger and bitterness and not to punish the LD spouse. Once those get taken care of, then we can be free to look for solutions. We can then express to our LD spouse, without blaming, the emotional of importance of sex - not intercourse - to us and how it can benefit BOTH. If after this, the LD spouse acts like "it went one in one ear and out the other" then the HD can decide whether he/she would be better served to separate or divorce. The LD spouse will then have nobody to blame but him/herself.


It might also help to bring up some of the negative messages women get that makes them feel used or indifferent when they are sexual. It's there and it effects relationships, married or not.


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## Joey2k (Oct 3, 2014)

Catherine602 said:


> It seems unreasonable to expect a woman to change suddenly from a sexually controlled person to a sexually free person for the benefit of her partner in a relationship. It may be possible for 2 yrs or so when the relationship is new but difficult to maintain if one person expects a miracle and the other is struggling to be normal. .
> 
> You can't really be angry with women, be angry with a culture that perpetrates these dysfunctional attitudes. Anything that effects women effects men. If its good, we both benefit, if its bad, we both suffer.


It seems unreasonable to expect a man to change suddenly from an emotionally controlled person to an emotionally available person for the benefit of his partner in a relationship. It may be possible for 2 yrs or so when the relationship is new but difficult to maintain if one person expects a miracle and the other is struggling to be normal. 

You can't really be angry with men, be angry with a culture that perpetrates these dysfunctional attitudes. Anything that effects men effects women. If its good, we both benefit, if its bad, we both suffer.

And yet women have no qualms about taken men to task for lack of emotional intimacy and not being sensitive and "emotionally available".


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## Dogbert (Jan 10, 2015)

Catherine602 said:


> It might also help to bring up some of the negative messages women get that makes them feel used or indifferent when they are sexual. It's there and it effects relationships, married or not.


Yes it could but each woman is different and what one woman considers a message to be malicious and offensive, another may consider it to be simply a boneheaded remark born more out of ignorance than of malice.

It's how each person views the world and the people in it. Some will look for the best in people while others will look for the worst in them.

Some LD wives may view their husband's sex moratorium as another example of manipulation and domination over them, while others will view it as an opportunity to emotionally connect with their husbands in a non sexual fashion. The former group will remain LD because of their negative mindset, while the latter group will again reconnect sexually with their husbands because their husbands have reconnected with them emotionally.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> It seems unreasonable to expect a woman to change suddenly from a sexually controlled person to a sexually free person for the benefit of her partner in a relationship.


Why? 

Is this a fundamental difference in female psychology?

Gender Studies tells us that, "Male sexuality is celebrated, while female sexuality is repressed" and as you allude to on this thread, that is the root of much sexual dysfunction in marriage. 

Unfortunately, Gender Studies cares not a fig whether other academic disciplines agree with or support its theories. 

In this case, it is very easy to find sexual repression of both genders in isolated demographic groups and they suffer the same basic problems as the rest of the population.

Do women need to be promiscuous early in life to be sexual later in life? (Again an honest question.)


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

ocotillo said:


> Do women need to be promiscuous early in life to be sexual later in life? (Again an honest question.)


I think young women need to learn that good sex is natural, healthy and fun in order to be sexual later in life.

What kind of environment leads to women growing up believing that?


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Joey2k said:


> It seems unreasonable to expect a man to change suddenly from an emotionally controlled person to an emotionally available person for the benefit of his partner in a relationship. It may be possible for 2 yrs or so when the relationship is new but difficult to maintain if one person expects a miracle and the other is struggling to be normal.
> 
> You can't really be angry with men, be angry with a culture that perpetrates these dysfunctional attitudes. Anything that effects men effects women. If its good, we both benefit, if its bad, we both suffer.
> 
> And yet women have no qualms about taken men to task for lack of emotional intimacy and not being sensitive and "emotionally available".


Exactly. Both men and woman have challenges. How difficult is it for some men to be emotionally available for their wives? It's not easy to change especially if it something that is basic to ones identity. Do some men expect change in their wives but don't feel they should have to change? Thy can't give what they want to get. My husband is stoic and has his emotions carefully walled off. He learned early to be a man and he is teaching our son to be the same way and he is only 5 yo. 

I could get angry and impatient with my husband for not magically becoming emotional open and sharing. I did at first because he had me fooled early in our relationship. He seemed so open and talked about his feelings. The door slowly shut soon after marriage, especially when we had children. I don't get sick of hearing about the emotional unavailability of men. That's how they are. I didn't blame my husband. But I wanted him to be different with me out of love and trust. 

But that has not happened. The need to appear strong and unruffled is central to his identity. I have come to terms with it. I worry that he is holding in too much in. Plus I really need more of a show of softness and tenderness. We work on it and when he remembers he tries hard and I appreciate that. 

Is it fair to demand more of him? I don't think so. It makes him miserable and me too. Making him happy is more important to me than trying to turn him into someone else. I've decided to be consistently the type of wife a man would feel safe to opening up. I can complain and be demanding and angry but that will not make him trust me. 

I am not telling you to settle, you don't have to do that. You don't need to try and understand nor accept. You don't have to be the man she can trust to reveal how conflicted she feels about expressing her sexuality. Your anger and frustration says that she cannot trust you with her fears. 

*"I'm sick of hearing how hard it is for some people to have sex. WTH is so hard about it??? Why is it so difficult to do the most enjoyable thing two people can do with each other? It's probably the easiest part of a relationship, certainly easier than managing intangible concepts like "intimacy", "emotional connection", etc. 

If it's that hard for you to drum up the desire for or interest in sex, especially with the person you are supposed to love more than anyone else, and if you find yourself feeling like that on a regular basis, you probably shouldn't be in that relationship*


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

norajane said:


> I think young women need to learn that good sex is natural, healthy and fun in order to be sexual later in life.
> 
> What kind of environment leads to women growing up believing that?


Women are cautious about sex because their brains are hard wired to choose mates based on their ability to protect and supply. This is instinct.

Cultural norms bolster the conservative attitude to female sexuality because cultures are in a competition. Hence, people are pressured to marry within their religious confession and ethnic group. 

i have a cousin from a non-Western background who would not vaccinate her daughter against HPV for fear it would make her promiscuous.


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

In Absentia said:


> Sex is not just an animalistic need. Yes, it's easy, but without the right connection, it doesn't work the way your are describing it. If your relationship is working on an emotional level, sex will be part of it. If it isn't, sex will be the hardest part... people are on TAM because there is a problem and sexual problems are just the tip of the iceberg, a symptom...


Very true - when there was no room for any type of forum to discuss it (and to hopefully work on solutions - considering how much more difficult it was due to her affair) it just confirmed that this was my life getting away from me. You can only throw so much effort at something and turn up zero.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

norajane said:


> I think young women need to learn that good sex is natural, healthy and fun in order to be sexual later in life.
> 
> What kind of environment leads to women growing up believing that?


Thank you, NoraJane.

I would say that your first sentence answers the second, and the million dollar question is how best to provide such an environment for our young people. 

And please don't misunderstand. I'm not questioning the fact that society presents young women with some very, very negative messages about their sexuality. That's undeniable.

I'm disputing the mean spirited feminist notion that, 

A. You [Men] have set up this cultural norm to benefit yourselves. 

B. You [Men] have reaped the rewards of it. 

_quod erat demonstrandum_ - You [Men] shouldn't cry like stuck pigs when this selfish scheme of yours bites you in the ass a few years into marriage.​
The vast majority of men have no more clue how things got so screwed up than women do and more than a few of them grew up in extremely sexually repressive environments themselves.


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## Zouz (May 28, 2014)

"I'm sick of hearing how hard it is for some people to have sex. WTH is so hard about it??? Why is it so difficult to do the most enjoyable thing two people can do with each other? It's probably the easiest part of a relationship, certainly easier than managing intangible concepts like "intimacy", "emotional connection", etc."

*Tha'st true, very true , when their desires matches ;when one of the spouses is LD , sex becomes a sacrifice , a favor ;, or even a business deal !*

"If it's that hard for you to drum up the desire for or interest in sex, especially with the person you are supposed to love more than anyone else, and if you find yourself feeling like that on a regular basis, you probably shouldn't be in that relationship"
*
A romantic loyal romantic and caring husband -Ideal pic of a women dream- is the one who suffers the most in such a situation .

Affectionate ppl are the one who expects more from the one they love .

" A man will learn and should learn to have a thicker skin whenever his wife is LD, because for him even when he speaks the same language of love being sensitive ; she still translate this into words without action"
*


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## Zouz (May 28, 2014)

It was really less complicated when a women main job was to be a wife , she used to lead more than now , creates heroes when she is still fertile ; and a generation when she become a grandma ; look at her now , lost between a fake job fighting for her identity and a cold house with a baby sitter who would play with a child ; and sometimes offer more !

I have heard about lesbians ,bi , demons and more in the dark ages...

But never heard of an LD Wife !

It is only when she started to be the employee of the month outside her home .


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Zouz said:


> It was really less complicated when a women main job was to be a wife , she used to lead more than now , creates heroes when she is still fertile ; and a generation when she become a grandma ; look at her now , lost between a fake job fighting for her identity and a cold house with a baby sitter who would play with a child ; and sometimes offer more !
> 
> I have heard about lesbians ,bi , demons and more in the dark ages...
> 
> ...


You believe working women are what created women with LD? I suspect you have no evidence for this! 

Lots of SAHM's are also embroiled in marriages where they don't want to have sex with their husbands very often. The Sex in Marriage forum here would give you plenty of evidence of that.

In the Dark Ages, women had NO agency, so they were forced to have sex when their husbands wanted because they were men's property. I don't think anyone wants to go back to the Dark Ages.


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## Maria Canosa Gargano (Jan 30, 2015)

Zouz said:


> It was really less complicated when a women main job was to be a wife , she used to lead more than now , creates heroes when she is still fertile ; and a generation when she become a grandma ; look at her now , lost between a fake job fighting for her identity and a cold house with a baby sitter who would play with a child ; and sometimes offer more !
> 
> I have heard about lesbians ,bi , demons and more in the dark ages...
> 
> ...


I don't think this is true.

But even if it was true, 

I have one life to live and the maintenance of culture is less important to me than reaching the pinnacle of who I am.


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## Joey2k (Oct 3, 2014)

I think the problem comes from women wanting men to be women with penises. Started when society began encouraging men to get in touch with the sensitive side and to be more emotional. Men really are different than women in that regard, we are simply not wired to process emotions the same way and to the same intensity level as women. Being expected to talk about feelings is often more stressful for a man than whatever problems he was dealing with in the first place.

So men started trying to be more sensitive because that's what they were being told they were supposed to do, and it ended up making them into something women weren't sexually attracted to.

That's my theory anyway.


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## Maria Canosa Gargano (Jan 30, 2015)

Joey2k said:


> I think the problem comes from women wanting men to be women with penises. Started when society began encouraging men to get in touch with the sensitive side and to be more emotional. Men really are different than women in that regard, we are simply not wired to process emotions the same way and to the same intensity level as women. Being expected to talk about feelings is often more stressful for a man than whatever problems he was dealing with in the first place.
> 
> So men started trying to be more sensitive because that's what they were being told they were supposed to do, and it ended up making them into something women weren't sexually attracted to.
> 
> That's my theory anyway.


I am not going to break apart your theory because I am not a social scientist. 

But go back and read old books and talk to those who are social scientists of ancient times.

Cheating, lack of sex, fights, love, every range of human emotion was set into play.

Just as it is now.

We tend to romanticize the past when they were just as big of *******s as we are now. They also didn't have the internet. If they did I feel they wold be *****ing about the same things and say...back when we were roaming the Savannah men were real men and women were real women.

Personally, I like a man who is sensitive. I feel less close to my fiance when he is aggressive towards me. However, I don't see him as any less of a man. I think one of the great lovemaking sessions of ours was after he helped an abused pregnant woman escape from her boyfriend. In some ways that was a traditional man protecting woman role but it was done with sensitivity.

I don't think manliness has to be opposite of caring.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Joey2k said:


> So men started trying to be more sensitive because that's what they were being told they were supposed to do, and it ended up making them into something women weren't sexually attracted to.


I would say that you don't have to go back very far in time before a woman's alternative to saying, "No" was to be pregnant a good portion of her adult life. Breech presentations, previas and other pregnancy complications could very easily kill a woman and even if they didn't, there was no such thing as an epidural. 

So women have had a vested interest in guarding their sexuality (To the extent they were able) for a long, long time and it shouldn't really be a surprise that for many of them, sexual contact is predicated on a much higher emotional threshold.


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## Maria Canosa Gargano (Jan 30, 2015)

ocotillo said:


> I would say that you don't have to go back very far in time before a woman's alternative to saying, "No" was to be pregnant a good portion of her adult life. Breech presentations, previas and other pregnancy complications could very easily kill a woman and even if they didn't, there was no such thing as an epidural.
> 
> So women have had a vested interest in guarding their sexuality (To the extent they were able) for a long, long time and it shouldn't really be a surprise that for many of them, sexual contact is predicated on a much higher emotional threshold.


Not to much to add as I think ocotillo did a great job. Just felt a desire to put in my thoughts.

Sex for me is a way to express my feelings on many different levels. Desire, love, happiness, joy, affection, a need for closeness. 

That comes first. 

But then there is a true anxiety of the fear of pregnancy. Afterwards I wait with much interest to see if I will have my period or not. I am on birth control, protection is used, rhythm method. Everything I think I can do to protect myself.

I am not a man so I don't know if in general men have that fear after they have sex with a woman. But every time I have had sex that fear has always followed. Not loudly, but a steady drumbeat until the month is over.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Maria Canosa Gargano said:


> Not to much to add as I think ocotillo did a great job. Just felt a desire to put in my thoughts.
> 
> Sex for me is a way to express my feelings on many different levels. Desire, love, happiness, joy, affection, a need for closeness.
> 
> ...


Now imagine actively trying to get pregnant. Does that internalized automatic drumbeat just end? No, it's weird and you have to un-do years of hearing the drumbeat and trying not to get pregnant.

I think it can be similar for sexuality in general. For years, the drumbeat is no sex, wait until marriage, sex is full of horrible consequences for you from sl*t shaming to being considered unworthy of marriage to pregnancy to STD's to being used just for sex and dumped, ad nauseum. In order to heed the warnings of the drumbeat, you have to train your mind and body to ignore natural sexual impulses. So turning off the drumbeat after marriage, and paying no more heed to the drumbeat, and giving free reign to sexual impulses you long denied is not easy for a lot of people, depending on how hard that drum had been beaten.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

Maria Canosa Gargano said:


> But then there is a true anxiety of the fear of pregnancy. Afterwards I wait with much interest to see if I will have my period or not. I am on birth control, protection is used, rhythm method. Everything I think I can do to protect myself.
> 
> I am not a man so I don't know if in general men have that fear after they have sex with a woman. But every time I have had sex that fear has always followed. Not loudly, but a steady drumbeat until the month is over.


In general no. Once in a while yes but in general no.


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## Maria Canosa Gargano (Jan 30, 2015)

norajane said:


> Now imagine actively trying to get pregnant. Does that internalized automatic drumbeat just end? No, it's weird and you have to un-do years of hearing the drumbeat and trying not to get pregnant.
> 
> I think it can be similar for sexuality in general. For years, the drumbeat is no sex, wait until marriage, sex is full of horrible consequences for you from sl*t shaming to being considered unworthy of marriage to pregnancy to STD's to being used just for sex and dumped, ad nauseum. In order to heed the warnings of the drumbeat, you have to train your mind and body to ignore natural sexual impulses. So turning off the drumbeat after marriage, and paying no more heed to the drumbeat, and giving free reign to sexual impulses you long denied is not easy for a lot of people, depending on how hard that drum had been beaten.


The only thing I cannot relate to at this time is trying to get pregnant, but I have felt everything else you have said. I think sometimes as a society we get so politicized thinking we know what is the correct sexuality for everyone, we don't realize how that effects our daily lives. 

The main operation of my sex life has been with my fiance and I waited to initiate it and it is emotionally filled. I understand waiting and creating an emotional connection.

I also had sex with a man who entered and left my life fairly quickly outside of any relationship. I understand what it is to open yourself up to desire, experimentation and connection without waiting. 

I have heard criticism on both sides. I think the one that hurts the most is "You are x, y, z. You are not worthy of compassion. Your value is nonexistent because it does not fit in to my worldview"

I just think. It's my body. I understand the political reasons or the logical reasons why someone would come to that conclusion, but that person is fitting my life and body into a mold/lens of how they see the world. It doesn't make the judgments any less painful.

Men do have their own pressures. I have not felt them as a women, but I am sure a man can post an outline differing in points from what you said, but with equally splitting values on either side. 

I don't think we need to feel that understanding either side's problems mean we have to bring down the other side.


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## Maria Canosa Gargano (Jan 30, 2015)

anonmd said:


> In general no. Once in a while yes but in general no.


Anonmd.

Thank you for replying. 

Would be nice to do a scientific review of men and women and their response to this. I have a gut feeling (but no science) in thinking that this is the main difference in male and female sexuality.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Maria Canosa Gargano said:


> I am not a man so I don't know if in general men have that fear after they have sex with a woman.


I got taken to task fairly early on here on TAM for comparing the art of sex to the art of a giving a good back rub.

(i.e. "How could you say such an ignorant thing, you sad, shallow, little man...")

The comparison wasn't intended to put them both on the same plane (That was inferred) but I have to admit it was a valid inference. 

In a committed, monogamous relationship there really isn't any more risk for me, as the man. I'm happy to do either.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

Maria Canosa Gargano said:


> Anonmd.
> 
> Thank you for replying.
> 
> Would be nice to do a scientific review of men and women and their response to this. I have a gut feeling (but no science) in thinking that this is the main difference in male and female sexuality.


You may well be right. 

A short time after (whatever the recovery period was, a couple or a few weeks) my wife had her tubes tied she got her mojo back. It was like a supernova, a brief week or two flare of the most intense sex drive I've ever seen her exhibit in 20+ years. The women was on fire, sometimes multiple times in a day. 

Then like all supernova, it dimmed back to invisibilty:scratchhead:


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Joey2k said:


> I think the problem comes from women wanting men to be women with penises. Started when society began encouraging men to get in touch with the sensitive side and to be more emotional. Men really are different than women in that regard, we are simply not wired to process emotions the same way and to the same intensity level as women. Being expected to talk about feelings is often more stressful for a man than whatever problems he was dealing with in the first place.
> 
> So men started trying to be more sensitive because that's what they were being told they were supposed to do, and it ended up making them into something women weren't sexually attracted to.
> 
> That's my theory anyway.


I agree partly with this, but I think you have to strike a balance somewhere... extremes usually don't work, unless you are a psychopath...


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## Maria Canosa Gargano (Jan 30, 2015)

ocotillo said:


> I got taken to task fairly early on here on TAM for comparing the art of sex to the art of a giving a good back rub.
> 
> (i.e. "How could you say such an ignorant thing, you sad, shallow, little man...")
> 
> ...


Can you explain to me how you compared the back rub?

Analogies do not have to be of equal gravitas for them to make sense or clear up our understanding of particular aspects.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Maria Canosa Gargano said:


> Can you explain to me how you compared the back rub?


The comparison was simply a way of stating that we're not born knowing how to do these things and doing either of them well is an art. Similar comparisons sometimes get made with ballroom dance and sex.

I didn't bring it up on this thread to criticize that person. --Only to show how much higher a plane sex occupies in some people's minds.

I don't think a lot of married men understand this _vis-à-vis_ their wives.


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## Maria Canosa Gargano (Jan 30, 2015)

ocotillo said:


> The comparison was simply a way of stating that we're not born knowing how to do these things and doing either of them well is an art. Similar comparisons sometimes get made with ballroom dance and sex.
> 
> I didn't bring it up on this thread to criticize that person. --Only to show how much higher a plane sex occupies in some people's minds.
> 
> I don't think a lot of married men understand this _vis-à-vis_ their wives.


I understand.

I think we are not born knowing especially the emotional side of it and how to take care of ourselves or the other person.

A lot of women don't know how sex relates to a man emotionally either. How it relates to total acceptance and approval.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

ocotillo said:


> Catherine, do you think sexual repression affects women differently than men? (Honest question)
> 
> The reason I ask and the reason I would be confused on this point too is because it is not hard to find sexually repressive environments in the U.S.
> 
> ...


Sorry didn't see your question Ocotillo. I think it does but not directly. Men enjoy sex without shame or concern about what people will think of them. Many women can't. When a man falls in love and marries, he expects the same shameless pleasure with his beloved. Joeyk2 feels that a wife should forget about all that negative stuff in a marriage so her husband can have as carefree a sex life as he enjoyed before marriage. Humans don't work like that. We don't get away with the negativity that we create. It comes back one way or another. 

I have a suggestion. Entertain the notion that your wife's attitude is a product of environment and is not something she has created. For a moment, drop the idea that marriage should cure her of all of cultural influences. Notice what you say. You'd be surprised how many negative things men say and do to confirm their negativity towards of female sexuality. It may not be in your wife's hearing but it lacks out. She may not take it in consciously but she gets it. 

Practice picking up on negative things that are said about women and sex when you read this forum. This from men who want their wives to have sex with them. Someone called women who have lots of fun sex promiscuous. I'm not making accusations, I asking anyone who wants to look at the situation in a different way to look. Maybe that will help to attack the problem more effectively.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> Men enjoy sex without shame or concern about what people will think of them. Many women can't. When a man falls in love and marries, he expects the same shameless pleasure with his beloved.


Thank you for your reply, Catherine. 

Your captioned comment above is the theory, but as I've pointed out, it's not universal. Not by a long shot.

There are Christian sects right here in the United States that forbid unmarried men and women to dance together. One of them will excommunicate an single man for even touching a single woman's breasts. They brand this as "Loose conduct," a term drawn from both the OT & NT. If he cannot subsequently convince an ecclesiastical tribunal of his repentance, they will forbid even his own family from speaking with him again. Extreme shunning is one of the stronger forms of social shaming still practiced in the Western world. 

There are Christian sects that teach that masturbation is a sin. One of them taught up until very recently that it was a form of homosexuality. There are two Christian sects that frown very strongly on fellatio and cunnilingus. There are several Christian sects that teach that sex is only for reproduction and not recreation. 

With one exception, these are not large denominations, but collectively, we're still talking about many millions of members distributed across a wide swathe of the Midwest and Southwest. So with respect, I believe the idea that men enjoy sex without shame or concern might be invoked a little too casually, because there are plenty of examples where that's just not true. 

Sociologists have studied these groups and they have virtually the same rate of divorce and other marital woes as the rest of the population, so I think the theory falls short here inasmuch as it doesn't seem to account for a fair amount of contrary data. 




Catherine602 said:


> Someone called women who have lots of fun sex promiscuous. I'm not making accusations...


I have used that word because it is the correct term in Biology, Anthropology, Evolutionary Biology, etc. It would not offend my wife (Who is a professor) but if it's offensive here, I'm both surprised and embarrassed and will make a point never to use it again.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

I didn't know it was you who said promiscuous. It didn't bother me, I was just interested that it came up. One of those things I notice because I am too sensitive to it. 

I don't think we have to be too serious about what we say though.  I try to notice my preconceived ideas and biases. I have a lot to work on and it is a starting point for me.


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