# The Controlling Wife



## Downtrodden

As the topic suggests, I'm currently in a marital relationship with an overly controlling woman that I am fairly certain has undiagnosed BPD/NPD. This, as you can imagine, is putting an incredible strain on not only our relationship but also the quality of our lives in general. 

I personally feel like I've become so much less than what I should be. I don't feel like a person any more, much less an equal in our relationship. I have no authority over my own life or our life together, and any attempt I make at wading through these issues, no matter how delicately I try, end in disaster. If anyone has experienced a BPD/NPD wife, they know exactly what I'm talking about. There is no way to broach the subject of your own feelings of complete and utter domination without invoking the wrath of this woman that inevitably materializes any time she feels that her control is being threatened; this is common procedure for this type of person. 

I have no friends left, as I've been forced to choose between them and her one by one until they're all gone. That isn't enough, though. She's set to work on my family as well, and she's bound and determined to see me cut them entirely from my life, and until I finally relent to this, there will be no end to the proverbial ****storm that ensues any time she's forced to accept the fact that I do, indeed, have a family that I was born into. I'm not allowed to call my mother any more to check up on her because that makes me "dependent" and "spineless" and causes more issues that always end in a fight where I'm forced to choose between her and someone else, because I'm such a mean, evil person. 

And she's right. I am spineless. I have no way to stand up to her for fear of everything in my life completely falling apart because I had the audacity to make friends with someone, or make a decision on my own. Every minute issue has to be blown into epic proportions if it involves any perceived threat to her dominance of our lives, and anything out of her emotional lockstep inevitably ends with threats of divorce and her being a professional victim while I magically transform into the horrible person she likes to paint me as when it's convenient for her. I find it's gotten to the point where I've nearly given up hope for any sort of respect or equality. I don't really open my mouth any more because whatever is going to happen when I do, even if only for casual conversation, will generally end up with me regretting whatever I said. I can't speak without being snapped at (I love being told to shut the **** up in public, like at the grocery store, and treated like a two year old wherever I go), I'm not allowed to have a negative opinion about the way she speaks to me (this makes me the bad guy), I can't have friends or family (or I'm dependent on other people/she isn't fully in control), I can't talk to people on the internet (if she knew I was posting this I'd honestly fear for my physical well-being), I am not allowed to make decisions or question those that she makes without me, everything that we own together is "hers" and all of the problems we have are "mine"... I just don't know how to do it any more. Even the idea of me having my own cell phone, credit card or vehicle is just unthinkable. I only get a certain allowance out of what I make and I damn well better be able to account for every cent before it's even spent. I feel like I have to give up on trying to be happy and consent to live in her bubble of insanity with no outside connections just to avoid what's become an unbearable amount of stress.

I've come here to ask if anyone else has experienced a relationship like this and if they ever found a way to save it. I love my wife more than anything, and we can have an amazing time together when this problem isn't rearing it's head. We're a great fit for each other, and I want to make it work if there's a way. 

Thank you all for your time, it's very much appreciated.


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## Gaia

Therapy.... you and her... that's my immediate suggestion. How is she with her own family and friends?


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## Downtrodden

Gaia said:


> Therapy.... you and her... that's my immediate suggestion. How is she with her own family and friends?


I had planned to schedule therapy of some sort within the week and hope it helps. 

As for her own family, they're fine, they don't count in her insanity bubble. She can be an hour, two or even three hours late picking me up from somewhere or doing something important because she gets caught up talking to her mother for all that time. It's perfectly normal and acceptable for her to have a family (as it should be), but I have to get rid of mine.

As for friends, she has extreme difficulty making any. The ones she does have are all well and good, I suppose. I think they're really just there to give her someone to talk down about when they aren't around than to foster any actual friendships.


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## AFEH

Far too incredible for me to believe that any man would tolerate that.


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## Gaia

I know a few people here have experience with this sort of thing and will offer better advice then i can but i do wonder... Have you pointed out that if she can have family and friends... then you can as well? How would that work out? Oh... i think this may help... 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/18181-man-up-nice-guy-reference.html

You can take a look at that and see if anything there can help?


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## Gaia

AFEH said:


> Far too incredible for me to believe that any man would tolerate that.


For me.. it's any person.. man or woman but it does happen sadly enough.


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## Downtrodden

Gaia said:


> I know a few people here have experience with this sort of thing and will offer better advice then i can but i do wonder... Have you pointed out that if she can have family and friends... then you can as well? How would that work out? Oh... i think this may help...
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/18181-man-up-nice-guy-reference.html
> 
> You can take a look at that and see if anything there can help?


I've tried everything I can think of. I've gone through letting her get her way, I've put my foot down and tried to establish myself, I've tried a mix of the two; none of it changes much of anything. Things might be different for a while, maybe a week or so, but something always happens to knock it back down. 

I have pointed that out, yes. If you bring up anything that she can't navigate her way past or else she'd have to stare it in the face, I.E. something that is blatantly truthful and she can't thwart, she flies off the handle and any hope of _some_ semblance of a reasonable conversation is instantly shot to pieces. That's when the "just divorce me" rigamorrole begins and there's a complete refusal to face any logical facts.

She doesn't get her way anymore, and that's where this enormous amount of stress is coming from. It's a daily battle where I'm struggling to be a whole person and catching almighty hellfire because of it. I'm not a weak person and I've never been what you would call a "nice guy", so there's that unavoidable butting of heads that HAS to stop. A high-conflict relationship is like pulling teeth day after day.

I refuse to give into her emotional vampirism anymore, and I'm looking for a way to save our relationship without being her pet. I think I deserve a normal life.


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## Gaia

She's unwilling to make a compromise of ANY kind? How does she feel about going to therapy? (Clearly she needs it imo...)


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## Downtrodden

Here is a very informative article that does an exceptional job of illustrating the behavior of this type of individual, where I'm not so great at getting my point across. An excellent resource to get a feel for what is going on.


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## AFEH

Downtrodden you are an enabler of abusive behaviour.


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## Downtrodden

Gaia said:


> She's unwilling to make a compromise of ANY kind? How does she feel about going to therapy? (Clearly she needs it imo...)


Compromises are choppy water at best here. There have been "compromises" in theory that end up being a sham where I'm expected to follow through, but only me. More often than not the closest thing resembling a compromise is "fine, do whatever you want, I don't care" which anyone with any sense will realize is just a way to cover your own ass so later down the road you can say "I told you I didn't care!"

As for therapy, yes, she knows she has this problem and she's willing to see a therapist. Last night, in fact, she came right out and said that she doesn't want to be this way, and by the end of the night we were full-blown fighting after another control-binge. We've both agreed to see a marriage counselor for various reasons. I've done a bit of research, though, and found very little comfort in the idea of professional help; it doesn't seem to do squat in these situations, at least that's the general consensus I've gathered here.


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## Gaia

I know there are a few here with bpd and have dealt with those who have it... they come on later though i think. They could probably give you some great advice on... as AFEH puts it... your an enabler and they may be able to help you STOP being an enabler. Hell I have anxiety issues myself but clearly not like that... and i sure as heck don't try and control my H. At least she does recognize she needs therapy. Have you considered a psychiatrist that specializing in dealing with this sort of thing?


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## AFEH

Your wife royally shet tests you and you enable it because you have no healthy boundaries whatsoever. Sure your wife has problems but your most significant problems lay within you, not your wife.

Look to yourself for solutions to your problems. Go and see a psychologist and get yourself sorted out. First thing you need to understand is why you are “in love” with a woman who consciously, repetitively and deliberately shet tests you, wounds you and causes you pain. You need a therapist for some form of CBT such that you are reprogrammed to know what love really is all about.


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## Ndleje

Downtrodden said:


> As the topic suggests, I'm currently in a marital relationship with an overly controlling woman that I am fairly certain has undiagnosed BPD/NPD. This, as you can imagine, is putting an incredible strain on not only our relationship but also the quality of our lives in general.
> 
> I personally feel like I've become so much less than what I should be. I don't feel like a person any more, much less an equal in our relationship. I have no authority over my own life or our life together, and any attempt I make at wading through these issues, no matter how delicately I try, end in disaster. If anyone has experienced a BPD/NPD wife, they know exactly what I'm talking about. There is no way to broach the subject of your own feelings of complete and utter domination without invoking the wrath of this woman that inevitably materializes any time she feels that her control is being threatened; this is common procedure for this type of person.
> 
> I have no friends left, as I've been forced to choose between them and her one by one until they're all gone. That isn't enough, though. She's set to work on my family as well, and she's bound and determined to see me cut them entirely from my life, and until I finally relent to this, there will be no end to the proverbial ****storm that ensues any time she's forced to accept the fact that I do, indeed, have a family that I was born into. I'm not allowed to call my mother any more to check up on her because that makes me "dependent" and "spineless" and causes more issues that always end in a fight where I'm forced to choose between her and someone else, because I'm such a mean, evil person.
> 
> And she's right. I am spineless. I have no way to stand up to her for fear of everything in my life completely falling apart because I had the audacity to make friends with someone, or make a decision on my own. Every minute issue has to be blown into epic proportions if it involves any perceived threat to her dominance of our lives, and anything out of her emotional lockstep inevitably ends with threats of divorce and her being a professional victim while I magically transform into the horrible person she likes to paint me as when it's convenient for her. I find it's gotten to the point where I've nearly given up hope for any sort of respect or equality. I don't really open my mouth any more because whatever is going to happen when I do, even if only for casual conversation, will generally end up with me regretting whatever I said. I can't speak without being snapped at (I love being told to shut the **** up in public, like at the grocery store, and treated like a two year old wherever I go), I'm not allowed to have a negative opinion about the way she speaks to me (this makes me the bad guy), I can't have friends or family (or I'm dependent on other people/she isn't fully in control), I can't talk to people on the internet (if she knew I was posting this I'd honestly fear for my physical well-being), I am not allowed to make decisions or question those that she makes without me, everything that we own together is "hers" and all of the problems we have are "mine"... I just don't know how to do it any more. Even the idea of me having my own cell phone, credit card or vehicle is just unthinkable. I only get a certain allowance out of what I make and I damn well better be able to account for every cent before it's even spent. I feel like I have to give up on trying to be happy and consent to live in her bubble of insanity with no outside connections just to avoid what's become an unbearable amount of stress.
> 
> I've come here to ask if anyone else has experienced a relationship like this and if they ever found a way to save it. I love my wife more than anything, and we can have an amazing time together when this problem isn't rearing it's head. We're a great fit for each other, and I want to make it work if there's a way.
> 
> Thank you all for your time, it's very much appreciated.


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## Downtrodden

AFEH said:


> Your wife royally shet tests you and you enable it because you have no healthy boundaries whatsoever. Sure your wife has problems but your most significant problems lay within you, not your wife.
> 
> Look to yourself for solutions to your problems. Go and see a psychologist and get yourself sorted out. First thing you need to understand is why you are “in love” with a woman who consciously, repetitively and deliberately shet tests you, wounds you and causes you pain. You need a therapist for some form of CBT such that you are reprogrammed to know what love really is all about.


I am scheduling an apointment with a therapist, yes. However, and with all due respect, I won't be blamed for the way my wife treats me. She acts this way because she has psychological issues that need to be addressed, and her attitude would be the same regardless of who her spouse might be. By your definition, every victim of abuse would be an enabler. It sounds a lot like blaming the abused for the abuser's behavior. That's along the same line of thinking that leads people to say things like women who wear skimpy outfits are asking to be raped. 

I have issues that need to be addressed and I intend on taking care of that. Everyone has faults and I don't hide my own. If it's all the same, I'll wait around for someone who's dealt with this personally. "Setting healthy boundaries" is not a possibility with a NPD/BPD individual; if it were so simple there would be a lot of marriage counselors out there with empty pockets.


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## Ndleje

I often thought my yf was controlling but after reading ur post I have to swallow my words. This is unbelievably ridiculous, I cant bliv u r not allowed to even have a cell phone like you actually need any1's permission for that.

I have to wonder though the root course of her current behaviour, did you do anything b4 to trigger her defensive and protective behaviour?

Anyway, you both need couselling.


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## Gaia

ND the OP already stated his wife has a mental disorder and often, people with mental disorders have been this way with others before their spouse. OP I do hope you two can find a therapist/psychiatrist that will help. It is good news that she realizes she has a problem and she doesn't want to be that way.


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## Downtrodden

That's something that I think everyone in my position has to (and probably does) ask themselves at some point; what have I done to contribute to this behavior? I'm not a perfect person and I don't pretend to be. I have explored that possibility and I can't think of anything that could possibly justify this behavior. I've always been faithful, I've no history of anything to the contrary, et cetera. It's difficult for a spouse in this situation to get a feel for what is causing or exacerbating the issue because there is a lack of meaningful communication and anything of the sort is more or less impossible. I suppose that's what the therapy is for, and once we have a clearer understanding of the underlying issues, hopefully we'll be able to make some progress. 

We both are going to do individual therapy along with marriage counseling and I can only hope it helps. I know that therapy doesn't solve anything, but it should help us to help ourselves, so to speak.


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## AFEH

Take a look at Karpman drama triangle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

Your wife is the Victim on the triangle. Victims are people who were wounded in the past, but never healed their wounds. They keep their wounds forever open by constantly picking and poking at them.

Victims (there are some really sad stories) turn into Persecutors. They Persecute others around them, even those they “confess to love”, for the crimes of the person who wounded them way back. So you are being Persecuted for the crimes of others.

Persecutory Acts are acts of sheer aggression. If it’s a man, the aggression normally takes the form of hitting his wife with his fists. This is Overt Aggression. If it’s a woman, the aggression normally takes the form of covert aggression. You feel the pain, are wounded and your mind is confused. Yet you don’t see it as aggression.

On the triangle you are the Rescuer (or Hero) and how you love your role! Look at your posts man! Look at your endeavours! Look at what you put up with in order to play your role as the Hero!

But you too are also a Victim. You are a Victim to your wife’s massively aggressive and passively violent behaviour. You are no different to the woman of a husband who beats her with his fists he says “But I love him! And I know he loves me!”.

It can be tremendously difficult for the Hero to get off of the triangle. But get off he must. If he gets off he loses his “Life’s Project”, the Life Project he has taken on as the Hero to “Change His Wife”.

But some men, some Heroes just can’t see these things. And so they become more and more the Victim of their wives Persecution by way of her shet testing, passive, covertly aggressive behaviour.

And then one day the Hero gets wounded one too deep and one too many times by his Victim of a Persecutory wife. And when that happens the Hero becomes the Persecutor intent on wounding his wife as deeply as she wounded him. That is an exceeding dangerous time indeed because it’s the first time the Hero wants to harm his wife with acts of aggression.


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## AFEH

Downtrodden said:


> I am scheduling an apointment with a therapist, yes. However, and with all due respect, I won't be blamed for the way my wife treats me. She acts this way because she has psychological issues that need to be addressed, and her attitude would be the same regardless of who her spouse might be. By your definition, every victim of abuse would be an enabler. It sounds a lot like blaming the abused for the abuser's behavior. That's along the same line of thinking that leads people to say things like women who wear skimpy outfits are asking to be raped.


You don’t know it as yet, but you are very wrong in not taking the blame for the way your wife treats you. People treat us in ways we let them treat us. Almost in ways we’ve trained them to treat us by ways of what we are prepared to tolerate and what we’re not prepared to tolerate.

The wife who without protest, without telling family, without calling in the police, without leaving for a shelter and accepts her husband’s hitting her has taught him that it is ok for him to hit her.

That wife has “No Boundaries” against her husband’s seriously abusive aggressive behaviour.

You are a person such as that wife. You can say your wife has some form of PD. That is absolutely no “excuse” for her violent aggression against you and while you keep tolerating it she will keep on doing it.


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## Downtrodden

AFEH said:


> Take a look at Karpman drama triangle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
> 
> Your wife is the Victim on the triangle. Victims are people who were wounded in the past, but never healed their wounds. They keep their wounds forever open by constantly picking and poking at them.
> 
> Victims (there are some really sad stories) turn into Persecutors. They Persecute others around them, even those they “confess to love”, for the crimes of the person who wounded them way back. So you are being Persecuted for the crimes of others.
> 
> Persecutory Acts are acts of sheer aggression. If it’s a man, the aggression normally takes the form of hitting his wife with his fists. This is Overt Aggression. If it’s a woman, the aggression normally takes the form of covert aggression. You feel the pain, are wounded and your mind is confused. Yet you don’t see it as aggression.
> 
> On the triangle you are the Rescuer (or Hero) and how you love your role! Look at your posts man! Look at your endeavours! Look at what you put up with in order to play your role as the Hero!
> 
> But you too are also a Victim. You are a Victim to your wife’s massively aggressive and passively violent behaviour. You are no different to the woman of a husband who beats her with his fists he says “But I love him! And I know he loves me!”.
> 
> It can be tremendously difficult for the Hero to get off of the triangle. But get off he must. If he gets off he loses his “Life’s Project”, the Life Project he has taken on as the Hero to “Change His Wife”.
> 
> But some men, some Heroes just can’t see these things. And so they become more and more the Victim of their wives Persecution by way of her shet testing, passive, covertly aggressive behaviour.
> 
> And then one day the Hero gets wounded one too deep and one too many times by his Victim of a Persecutory wife. And when that happens the Hero becomes the Persecutor intent on wounding his wife as deeply as she wounded him. That is an exceeding dangerous time indeed because it’s the first time the Hero wants to harm his wife with acts of aggression.


 I'm very glad that you've got this complete stranger so figured out, but I think I'll get a second opinion from the people who have applicable degrees and experience; they're usually a bit more qualified to psychoanalyze people. 

As a side note, that has to be easily one of the most cynical theories of psychology I've come across in quite a while, and it's definitely a great example of what the field of behavioral sciences was like in 1968. Everyone is to blame, everyone is getting their twisted satisfaction and everyone's problems are caused by someone else, but it's simultaneously their own fault. Try presenting that gem to a group of battered women and tell them they've been taking fists to the face because of their own egotistical inner desires.

I can see you probably are the type to tell a rape victim she shouldn't have been wearing a mini-skirt.


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## AFEH

Downtrodden said:


> I have issues that need to be addressed and I intend on taking care of that. Everyone has faults and I don't hide my own. If it's all the same, I'll wait around for someone who's dealt with this personally. "Setting healthy boundaries" is not a possibility with a NPD/BPD individual; if it were so simple there would be a lot of marriage counselors out there with empty pockets.


Absolutely!!! How soon they would be out of business!

But do you have the healthy levels of self-respect, self-esteem, dignity and yes pride in your self to put boundaries of intolerance around your wife’s exceedingly aggressive behaviour?

Are you Man enough to go and see your very own family without taking any heed whatsoever of what your wife thinks about it or how she will respond?

Sure your wife has very deep problems. But so do you. It takes two to tango and some dances are very aggressive, abusive and dysfunctional. Believe me I’ve seen the ones that turn men into mass murderers. I know what I talk of in these things.


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## AFEH

You are in an exceedingly dysfunctional yet well known game. You don’t want to take a cool hard look at yourself and recognise your participation in that game.

And so you are in denial.

Just like the wife of the husband who beats her with his fists.

Your story has a long way to go as yet. It’s ending will depend on how much abuse you are prepared to take. It will depend on your reserves of patience and tolerance and how much you have left. How low you can go is totally within your hands.

By your own story you are running on empty tanks as far as self-esteem, self-respect and dignity are concerned.


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## Downtrodden

AFEH said:


> Absolutely!!! How soon they would be out of business!
> 
> But do you have the healthy levels of self-respect, self-esteem, dignity and yes pride in your self to put boundaries of intolerance around your wife’s exceedingly aggressive behaviour?
> 
> Are you Man enough to go and see your very own family without taking any heed whatsoever of what your wife thinks about it or how she will respond?
> 
> Sure your wife has very deep problems. But so do you. It takes two to tango and some dances are very aggressive, abusive and dysfunctional. Believe me I’ve seen the ones that turn men into mass murderers. I know what I talk of in these things.


When "boundaries of intolerance" end in divorce and your aim is to make an attempt to save a marriage, what then? Am I supposed to just say "**** this, I'm a _real man_" and give up without a fight? 

I'm sorry, armchair Freud, you're not really getting it. If therapy doesn't help anything, then I can move on, but I'm not going to throw my marriage out the window without fighting to save it. What you fail to realize is there are no _boundaries_ with these types of people. You can push the envelope, but there's a thin line until you're sitting in court having the system throw you for a loop. The day you stand in front of a person with these issues and put your big, manly foot down and everything goes your way, you'll probably be elevated to the level of saint and elected president of the world. 

It must be easy to say "you're doing it wrong and it's your fault" if you're really under the impression that problems like these can be solved by bulldozing your way through them with a greased up handlebar moustache. This isn't a 1950's drama film, this is real life in 2012. Macho, sure. Practical, hardly.

If I weren't concerned with making an attempt at repairing a marriage, then this wouldn't be an issue.


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## AFEH

Downtrodden said:


> I'm very glad that you've got this complete stranger so figured out, but I think I'll get a second opinion from the people who have applicable degrees and experience; they're usually a bit more qualified to psychoanalyze people.
> 
> As a side note, that has to be easily one of the most cynical theories of psychology I've come across in quite a while, and it's definitely a great example of what the field of behavioral sciences was like in 1968. Everyone is to blame, everyone is getting their twisted satisfaction and everyone's problems are caused by someone else, but it's simultaneously their own fault. Try presenting that gem to a group of battered women and tell them they've been taking fists to the face because of their own egotistical inner desires.
> 
> I can see you probably are the type to tell a rape victim she shouldn't have been wearing a mini-skirt.


You play your Victim role very well. Hope you have a lot of money for your therapy.


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## Downtrodden

AFEH said:


> You play your Victim role very well. Hope you have a lot of money for your therapy.


Am I the victim, or the rescuer? What are _you_? You're the sort of amateur psychologist who has a knack for these cynical perspectives and knows just what everyone else's problem is and it's always because they're just not good enough. Everything is so crystal clear from your end of the looking glass, right? Anybody who can stand here and apply Karpman's "fairy tale" to a physically abused woman isn't going to get any respect from me, so we can agree to disagree. 

Where did you earn your degree, anyway? I wasn't aware that Wikipedia awarded doctorates.


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## AFEH

These are the sort of things often discussed here in the Men’s Clubhouse on TAM.

I bet you are a real Nice Guy. Right?

And if you were to read your initial post as though someone else had written it, you may well think “That guy just lets his wife walk all over him. Wont let him see his family, can’t have a mobile phone. What a right Doormat that guy is”. Right?

See yourself in your post through the eyes of another person. And if you did that you may just have an epiphany moment.

Then go take a look in http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/18181-man-up-nice-guy-reference.html where many guys just like you have gained great benefit from.

But I think you are way too blind to benefit. You are blinded by your self, your ego centric ways.

Good luck with your journey.


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## Downtrodden

AFEH said:


> These are the sort of things often discussed here in the Men’s Clubhouse on TAM.
> 
> I bet you are a real Nice Guy. Right?
> 
> And if you were to read your initial post as though someone else had written it, you may well think “That guy just lets his wife walk all over him. Wont let him see his family, can’t have a mobile phone. What a right Doormat that guy is”. Right?
> 
> See yourself in your post through the eyes of another person. And if you did that you may just have an epiphany moment.
> 
> Then go take a look in http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/18181-man-up-nice-guy-reference.html where many guys just like you have gained great benefit from.
> 
> But I think you are way too blind to benefit. You are blinded by your self, your ego centric ways.
> 
> Good luck with your journey.


I've never been accused of being nice. The nice guy thing isn't my shtick. 

I understand how you must see my situation from an outside view. Yes, I appear to be a doormat. I'm not disputing that. For all intents and purposes you may as well call me a doormat, if you're going to assume you're familiar with all the intricacies of my day-to-day life and particularly my marriage. You've taken what I've given you and assumed far too much, and that isn't going to be of any help to anyone. You've obviously assumed that I've made no attempt to set boundaries and stand up for myself, and that's what you're basing your analysis on. I appreciate your insight, I do, but you're making conclusions in the absence of evidence and filling in the blanks to fit your own perspective on someone else's situation. 

As I said before, your theory of establishing boundaries and putting your foot down are all well and good, but when your aim is to salvage a marriage and fix the issue, you cannot do that by shoving the issue aside and "being a man". I'm not trapped in my marriage because I don't know a why out, I'm trying to deal with the issue and keep my marriage intact until valid attempts have been made to address the problems. These methods you preach may well work for some people, but that isn't applicable in a situation where doing that would lead directly to the very situation that you're trying to prevent. What you're saying is "man up" and what I'm telling you is that it isn't going to work that way unless I'm ready to be done with it and settle for a divorce. Again, you're assuming that hasn't been tried. 

I have been reading the thread you suggested. I'll say again, I'm not a "nice guy" and you won't meet anyone who knows me personally that will tell you anything to the contrary. I'll see what can be gleaned from it, though.

I came to seek _practical_ advice from people with similar real-world experience on ways to navigate these waters I'm in while making an attempt at saving this marriage. I'll pay for a psychologist when I'm looking to be analyzed and diagnosed. No offense to you, but you sit pretty neatly into this triangle you're so quick to apply to my situation and deem it fact and me blind. If I'm the "yes, but/white/victim", then you very well fit part of "why don't you/black/rescuer". See how easy it is to apply psychoanalytical theories onto other people that you don't know much of anything about? 

Again, I appreciate you taking the time out to read what I've written and offer your two cents. Unfortunately, I'm not here for an appointment with the resident Dr. Phil and, believe it or not, there's a reason that psychology is considered a field of study and a profession and not a hobby. It takes a lot more than a few paragraphs to gather enough information before you can tell someone what their problem is and how to address it, especially with such a lack of necessary information. 

Thank you, and good luck with yours.


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## MEM2020

D,
What was she like at the point you asked her to marry you?

If you can't enforce boundaries with her, what hope do you have for ever owning a Samsung galaxy 3, or being able to continue having a relationship with your family? More broadly, without boundaries, how do you continue to exist as an individual person?




QUOTE=Downtrodden;876825]I'm very glad that you've got this complete stranger so figured out, but I think I'll get a second opinion from the people who have applicable degrees and experience; they're usually a bit more qualified to psychoanalyze people. 

As a side note, that has to be easily one of the most cynical theories of psychology I've come across in quite a while, and it's definitely a great example of what the field of behavioral sciences was like in 1968. Everyone is to blame, everyone is getting their twisted satisfaction and everyone's problems are caused by someone else, but it's simultaneously their own fault. Try presenting that gem to a group of battered women and tell them they've been taking fists to the face because of their own egotistical inner desires.

I can see you probably are the type to tell a rape victim she shouldn't have been wearing a mini-skirt.[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## NextTimeAround

I am sure that my exH says the same about me, that I was controlling.

but there comes a point when
1. You're tired of his friends being dismissive of you. Barely able to acknowledge you at a social event.

2. When your husband makes plans with your free time without your input. You find out that you're expected to do something, go somewhere before you've even said yes to the activity.

3. When everyone who knows your husband, that is friends, wives, friends' girlfriends, bypass the household phone and only call him on his cellphone.

4. If they do call the household phone, they want to be passed immediately on to your husband. No pleasantries to me.

5. If I do call his friends, even with the express of finalising joint activities, whether it's a woman or a man,they call my husband to say that I have called them. My husband then tells me not to call them.

6. Your husband doesn't see a problem with any of this.

OP, only you know the truth to your situation. so good luck. and if she is making your life so miserable and you believe that she is the only reason she is making it miserable, then get a divorce just like my exH did.

And be more careful in selecting the next one. If being No.2 to all your friends is a requirement for marriage to you,then tell her so BEFORE you marry her.


----------



## AFEH

On your Triangle?

I was for a bit before I knew what was going on. How deeply entrenched you are. As soon as I could see what was what, how exceedingly firmly entrenched you are I withdrew myself.

If I had stayed in your thread, then for sure I would stay on your Triangle and have turned my helping hand into that of a Rescuer.

I have absolutely no desire to do that. So again. Good luck.


----------



## morituri

Sometimes to save a marriage one should be willing to end it. So says this fortune cookie Confucius.:beer:


----------



## Downtrodden

AFEH said:


> On your Triangle?
> 
> I was for a bit before I knew what was going on. How deeply entrenched you are. As soon as I could see what was what, how exceedingly firmly entrenched you are I withdrew myself.
> 
> If I had stayed in your thread, then for sure I would stay on your Triangle and have turned my helping hand into that of a Rescuer.
> 
> I have absolutely no desire to do that. So again. Good luck.


Why thank you, doctor. Your wisdom is infallible. How much do I owe you? I'm sure you charge a premium for such outstanding service. I might have to write a check, my wife keeps the bank card.



MEM11363 said:


> D,
> What was she like at the point you asked her to marry you?


No, the issue didn't present itself so obviously before. I'm sure there were red flags that I should've paid attention to, but hindsight is 20/20, as they say.



> If you can't enforce boundaries with her, what hope do you have for ever owning a Samsung galaxy 3, or being able to continue having a relationship with your family? More broadly, without boundaries, how do you continue to exist as an individual person?


That, my friend, is the million dollar question that I hope someone can shed some light on for a significantly lower price; my Ponzi scheme is running low on funds. The ideal result would be a therapist or counselor helping us to figure out ways to work through this and actually repair the situation rather than just ignoring it and trying to continue this way. 



NextTimeAround said:


> I am sure that my exH says the same about me, that I was controlling.
> 
> but there comes a point when
> 1. You're tired of his friends being dismissive of you. Barely able to acknowledge you at a social event.
> 
> 2. When your husband makes plans with your free time without your input. You find out that you're expected to do something, go somewhere before you've even said yes to the activity.
> 
> 3. When everyone who knows your husband, that is friends, wives, friends' girlfriends, bypass the household phone and only call him on his cellphone.
> 
> 4. If they do call the household phone, they want to be passed immediately on to your husband. No pleasantries to me.
> 
> 5. If I do call his friends, even with the express of finalising joint activities, whether it's a woman or a man,they call my husband to say that I have called them. My husband then tells me not to call them.
> 
> 6. Your husband doesn't see a problem with any of this.
> 
> OP, only you know the truth to your situation. so good luck. and if she is making your life so miserable and you believe that she is the only reason she is making it miserable, then get a divorce just like my exH did.
> 
> And be more careful in selecting the next one. If being No.2 to all your friends is a requirement for marriage to you,then tell her so BEFORE you marry her.


Well, there's an interesting perspective and certainly a possibility to explore. Maybe it's just me? Let's see...

1: She wouldn't know what it was like to be around my friends, seeing as she never took the chance to go out with them or be near them. She's the quintessential hermit with severe social anxiety that she's dealt with her entire life, so far as I know. So getting her to actually meet these people was out of the question. It's hard enough going to the grocery store when it's crowded. 

2: That's a situation that I can easily say has never once happened. You have to maintain a social life to make plans.

3: I don't have a cell phone, remember? The idea sends my wife into a panic that always results in an argument.

4: I don't have a house phone. If I want to make a phone call, I have to use her cell phone, and I'm not "allowed" to store the numbers of my family members in this phone and it's only by chance that I catch a text or phone call from someone before it's deleted. 

5: N/A. I have no friends left to call and she wouldn't call them if I did.

6: She sees the problem, just doesn't know what we can do to fix it. 

She isn't making my life miserable on purpose, and I don't want to give up on my marriage, especially without trying to fix it first. I married her because I wanted to spend the rest of my life with her, and that hasn't changed. Of course, we can't go through life this way, and we will have to go our seperate ways if it can't be fixed, but that's something we're trying to avoid. She's never had to play second fiddle to anyone. I'm sorry your marriage turned out that way, it sounds like he was a bit controlling, if anyone.


----------



## Downtrodden

morituri said:


> Sometimes to save a marriage one should be willing to end it. So says this fortune cookie Confucius.:beer:


There's wisdom in that quote that you might not have even intended. That's something for me to chew on for a while. Thank you.


----------



## thunderstruck

Downtr, you raised your defense shields and then jumped up AFEH's azz when he gave you good advice. I guess you'll do the same with me...so be it. I'll tell you that your story is similar to mine, or at least where I was 4+ years ago. Then I yanked my head out of my azz. We train/teach people how to treat us. You don't like hearing this, but you have let your wife know that it is acceptable for her to treat you like dog shyte. My W tries to isolate me from all friends and family as well. She rages. She flies off the rails and goes batshyte at times. See my intro thread link below...sound familiar? We still have issues, but my W has now learned that I respect too much to be anyone's doormat. Some advice, take it or leave it...

-Read _No More Mr. Nice Guy _and _Hold On To Your Nuts_
-Get a life. Get your own cell or house phone. Being FORCED to use your W's cell is absolutely ridiculous.
-Get a hobby, some activities, some guy friends, go hit the gym, etc. Your wife will raise hell. Laugh in her face.
-The next time she rages on you and/or tells you to shut the **** up in public, deal with it like you have a pair. Stand tall and tell her in a confident tone that she will no longer speak to you that way. Then you STFU and walk away. The conversation is over.
-I don't do this often and I don't like it, but I will do it. When she gets in your face and she's raging, don't yell, but tell her in a confident voice to go F**K herself. Then STFU and walk away. You obviously don't want to play that card a lot, but it works wonders the first few times. Your W needs to see that you actually have a sack, you respect yourself, and you will no longer walk on eggshells around her.
-The part about you divorcing is key. Until you can accept in your skull that you are willing to leave her, she'll keep you sack in her back pocket. 

Good luck. You're in a tough situation...I can relate.


----------



## Downtrodden

thunderstruck said:


> Downtr, you raised your defense shields and then jumped up AFEH's azz when he gave you good advice. I guess you'll do the same with me...so be it. I'll tell you that your story is similar to mine, or at least where I was 4+ years ago. Then I yanked my head out of my azz. We train/teach people how to treat us. You don't like hearing this, but you have let your wife know that it is acceptable for her to treat you like dog shyte. My W tries to isolate me from all friends and family as well. She rages. She flies off the rails and goes batshyte at times. See my intro thread link below...sound familiar? We still have issues, but my W has now learned that I respect too much to be anyone's doormat. Some advice, take it or leave it...
> 
> -Read _No More Mr. Nice Guy _and _Hold On To Your Nuts_
> -Get a life. Get your own cell or house phone. Being FORCED to use your W's cell is absolutely ridiculous.
> -Get a hobby, some activities, some guy friends, go hit the gym, etc. Your wife will raise hell. Laugh in her face.
> -The next time she rages on you and/or tells you to shut the **** up in public, deal with it like you have a pair. Stand tall and tell her in a confident tone that she will no longer speak to you that way. Then you STFU and walk away. The conversation is over.
> -I don't do this often and I don't like it, but I will do it. When she gets in your face and she's raging, don't yell, but tell her in a confident voice to go F**K herself. Then STFU and walk away. You obviously don't want to play that card a lot, but it works wonders the first few times. Your W needs to see that you actually have a sack, you respect yourself, and you will no longer walk on eggshells around her.
> -The part about you divorcing is key. Until you can accept in your skull that you are willing to leave her, she'll keep you sack in her back pocket.
> 
> Good luck. You're in a tough situation...I can relate.


I threw my shield up at being psychoanalyzed and applied to an outdated theory suggesting that I'm just a glutton for the punishment and am getting some sort of twisted satisfaction from it. "Downtrodden you are an enabler of abusive behaviour" was the first gem of advice I received from AFEH. I wouldn't exactly call that "good advice", but that's my opinion.

I will take advice from someone who's dealt with it personally. I'll take that any day of the week over Wikipedia psychology (no offense to amatuer psychologists). You've raised good points, and that thread does sound familiar. I'm afraid that, by backing down and not nipping this in the bud when it first started to develop, I have contributed to the growth of the problem and now it's gotten out of control. I've made attempts to rectify it when I realized this, but it seemed too little too late. When this first cropped up, I thought it was something that would pass, just a hormonal spike or something of that nature, not something that would become a chronic issue to be dealt with every day. So I did let it go, let it slide and tried not to make an uncomfortable, volatile situation any worse than it was. But, it got worse, and by the time I started trying to put my foot down, the concept of me getting any respect seemed alien to her. Once she got that taste of control, I suppose she wanted to cement it. Judging by her parents relationship, I guess it would seem perfectly normal for her to control me. Everything I've seen of my in-laws has been much the same, albeit to a lesser extent. On the other hand, I grew up in a family utterly dominated by an abusive father, so it's doubtful that either of us have a healthy, working knowledge of what a balanced relationship is supposed to be like, and perhaps I tipped the balance too far in her favor in an attempt to be as disimilar to my own father as possible.

I'll pick up those books this week. I've noticed _No More Mr. Nice Guy_ being tossed around as a good reference. The other is new to me, but I'll give them both a read. The "get a life" part, that's a work-in-progress. It's been difficult for either of us to do much of anything due to our financial situation, but we are both starting new, higher paying jobs this month and moving into a new apartment, so I'm excited about the possibilities that a new place and a fresh start may offer us. I think it'll be a great catalyst to get things headed into a healthier direction before all hope is completely lost. I have a cell phone on the way through UPS as of last night, so there's that. The hobbies, the activities, those will come with the new job, and we're both very excited about those prospects. Getting back to the gym will be a godsend. 



> The next time she rages on you and/or tells you to shut the **** up in public, deal with it like you have a pair. Stand tall and tell her in a confident tone that she will no longer speak to you that way. Then you STFU and walk away. The conversation is over.


That's precisely what I do, it just doesn't seem to have that desired effect. In fact, it only serves to make her even angrier that I can stay calm and keep a firm, even tone in those situations. She hates that most of all, I think. The same goes for the next bit. I try to adopt that same tone and diffuse the situation, but eventually it will get to that point. Unfortunately, and the reason that it's been so difficult to restablish that level of respect I deserve, she's taken to going straight for the 'D' word at the slightest provocation. If I say I don't like something, or there's a problem, or that we really need to talk about what's bothering me/her, it's not even five minutes before it comes down to "well just divorce me, then, you obviously don't care about me/love me". I have to admit, I am _terrified_ of the divorce word, and so she's learned that instead of using that as her very, very last line of defense, it's become her vanguard catchphrase to swing every tiny situation back into her favor. That, my friend, is when it all falls apart and me listening to my music without headphones becomes a matter of whether or not we should stay married. 

The part about divorcing is key, indeed. It's obvious that it's the last thing I want to do, and I don't know if I can handle the stress of going through a divorce at this point. I'm a bundle of damn nerves anymore. I've never been willing to leave her, and with that you seem to have hit the nail right on it's ugly head. 

What to do about that is another tricky question.


----------



## thunderstruck

Like I posted, I've lived it, so hit me up with any questions you have. Like you, I grew up with an abusive father who dominated us. I guess that's why I slipped into Nice Guy mode. I read that book with my jaw on the ground...maybe it will be a life changer for you as well. 

On control, and taking it back...look, you've given her control of the ship for many years, so it's going to take a long time to undo that. I would say it took a year or so of me working my azz off on myself to see some good progress.

And yes, the first few times I grabbed my sack and stood my ground, her fury was off the charts. As you man-the-F**K-back up, she's going to test you this way. 

On the divorce comment...hell, that's straight out of the playbook. You have to get in your head that you're okay to divorce. If you cower under her divorce comment...game over, you lost, and she puts your sack in her back pocket. F**K that. The last few times my W mentioned the D word, I grabbed the phone book and told her I was looking up divorce lawyers and Uhaul to come pick up her shyte. She doesn't use the D word any longer.


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## NextTimeAround

Don't feel bad, Downtrodden, not only are these types all over cyberspace, they even exist in the form of qualified therapists.

I got free (thankfully) therapy sessions as part of getting diagnosedfor cancer. I mentioned to the therapist that I had a difficult relationships to my parents. Even at the age of 50, my parents still make jokes about my hair and ask me to comb my hair, somtimes publicly so, as if I were a child --- as if I were really unattractive and offesive looking to others.

the therapist say that I needed to tel my parents in very direct terms to stop making those comments. I said that I had already done that, on several occasions over the years, even......

The therapist gave me a look and then said nothing more. so I guess what she was trying to tell me was that she had no more tricks up her sleeve.......

Well, I guess, you can divorce your spouse but not your parents.

In your case Downtrodden, put it down to inexperience. You didn't know where her demands might lead to. You wanted to give her a chance and a benefit of the doubt. Now you realise you got nothing for it and you need to make some important decisions. 

You do not deserve what you are getting from your wife.


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## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby

I grew up with an extremely controlling mother. It was plain awful. Now that I'm an adult, I'm able to voice my opinion. I was never "heard" as a child. My opinion did not matter to her or any other family adult member. It still does not matter to her. She still treats me like I am 2 years old. I've tried telling her she has control issues, she quickly falls and sees herself as the victim. The name calling towards me got old quickly. She chose my friends. If she didn't like them, she'd put a stop to me seeing them. This included boyfriends as well. I was living under her roof, I had to play by her rules. 

Now that I'm grown, I do not have the time or energy for her "games". My mother has resorted to lying and making wrong assumptions. It's ridiculous! 

My first husband was trying to control me. He has diagnosed BPD. Our marriage lasted 1.5 years. I married due to being pregnant and not thinking rationally. I wanted out from living with my mother. My ex was far worse. Not only that, he was unfaithful, which made it easy to leave. I moved back home with my parents. The lesser of two evils. Even at 26 years old, I had to be home before midnight. It's redicilous to have a curfew as an adult. That's how controlling she was. 

I thank God everyday that I met my current husband. He has been a lifesaver like no other. We fell in love quickly and married a year after dating. My mother still tries to control my life, but no longer can. She says very negative things and lies about me. She pulls crap out of the air. I'm so tired of her assumptions and her yelling. She calls me a horrible parent. I bought my daughter a laptop computer a few months back for college and it didn't work right. Well, she screamed at the top of her lungs towards me telling me how awful I am for buying a faulty computer. Really??? I don't have a computer myself, yet we were able to scrounge up 1k for a nice college laptop.

It never ends. The controlling never ends. My ex is worse then ever, 18 years later. My mother is still just as bad as she was growing up. I was able to get away from both.

My suggestion is to leave. There is no reason any one should ever treat you this way, ever. My husband now puts my needs before his own. He is so kind, gentle and thoughtful. I can not express how happy I am to finally live a "normal" life. It's peaceful and quiet. Everyone is happy here.

My brother and I did not pick up on the controlling traits. I don't even nag one bit towards him or anyone. 

I wish you the best of luck!


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## Downtrodden

thunderstruck said:


> Like I posted, I've lived it, so hit me up with any questions you have. Like you, I grew up with an abusive father who dominated us. I guess that's why I slipped into Nice Guy mode. I read that book with my jaw on the ground...maybe it will be a life changer for you as well.
> 
> On control, and taking it back...look, you've given her control of the ship for many years, so it's going to take a long time to undo that. I would say it took a year or so of me working my azz off on myself to see some good progress.
> 
> And yes, the first few times I grabbed my sack and stood my ground, her fury was off the charts. As you man-the-F**K-back up, she's going to test you this way.
> 
> On the divorce comment...hell, that's straight out of the playbook. You have to get in your head that you're okay to divorce. If you cower under her divorce comment...game over, you lost, and she puts your sack in her back pocket. F**K that. The last few times my W mentioned the D word, I grabbed the phone book and told her I was looking up divorce lawyers and Uhaul to come pick up her shyte. She doesn't use the D word any longer.


I'm willing to keep suffering the wrath if it'll actually get me somewhere. Like I've said, I want this to work and I'm a pretty persistent/stubborn person. I'll definitely have to check out the suggested reading if it offers some insight into regaining that lost ground. Hopefully the therapy will also help her work on herself so that my efforts aren't wasted, because I don't really think it's going to get me very far unless she learns some coping mechanisms as well. She knows that the way she feels isn't right, but I don't think she realizes just how deep all of this goes, and how vital it is to establish a healthy balance. She says she's paranoid, neurotic, "not normal", so there's the recognition, but a lack of tools, so to speak. 

I really appreciate you taking the time out to post in this thread. It's great to know that someone else has made it work in the face of these problems. All I had read before coming to this site pretty much amounted to "you're screwed, man, hire a lawyer", which isn't at all encouraging. 

This will be a beautiful marriage if we can work this thing out.


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## Downtrodden

NextTimeAround - Decisions will have to be made, that's for sure. These are strange and dangerous waters to me, but I'm not the first person to tread them and unfortunately won't be the last. That bit about the therapist, I'll have to remember that; there's something I can keep as a reminder, just that image in my mind of the therapist. I hope all worked out with your parents; as you say, they cannot be divorced.

I'mInLoveWithMyHubby - I am genuinely sorry to hear all that you had to go through. Being under someone else's total control is a horrible, desperate feeling that I wouldn't wish on anyone. I'm glad you found your husband and that "normal life". That's exactly what I'm aiming for here, just a normal life. I don't believe in fairy tales, I'm realistic. 

Normal life. Normal life. Here I come!


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## thunderstruck

Down - no problem, brother, we're all here to learn. 

I went looking for solutions to "fix" my marriage a few years back, and stumbled on the Nice Guy book. The author warns that you may actually kill your marriage sooner by working on yourself. Just something to keep in mind. Before I picked up the book I was scared to death that my wife may leave me. After doing the work and opening my eyes...I now sit here and wonder why I stay.

You're about to enter a real shyte storm. Stay strong.


----------



## MEM2020

D,
If you can pull this off, the results will astonish you. Prepare yourself mentally for her threats to leave. Imagine yourself a year from now, with someone new, who loves and respects you. Someone who would look at you in shock if you asked: would you divorce me over wearing headphones, keeping in touch with my family, etc. Imagine walking out the door with that person to visit your mom/sister and they are happy and smiling. Feeling calm as you sit on the couch with them.

Soon your W will again threaten a D, when she does, don't respond at all. Say nothing. When she freaks and escalates - AND SHE WILL - picture yourself in that happy future. 
When she starts to pack, go and listen to music, or go for a walk. 

Remember this as if your sanity depended upon it: fighting, this type of fighting is not about logic, fairness, or decency. It is actually about emotional stamina. She has essentially learned how to key into your anxiety response. When she does that with the threat of D, you spin yourself into a bad state where you hemmorage emotional energy. Not only do you feel awful "in the moment" but the longer it lasts the more exhausted you are afterwards. 

The good news: you are an intelligent guy, and can teach yourself how to rewire your emotional response patterns. And you can do so in a short time if you are determined. 
The "not so good" news: the way your wife manages HER anxieties is by transferring them to you. Generally when you freak out, it reassures her she is in control and that calms her down. Oops - that means when she gets anxious and you stay calm she is going to completely lose it. 

That means she she will do stuff you have never seen before. Because the primary path she knows to being calm is to make you - anxious.
If you prepare, and then refuse to engage with her - she will get more aggressive until her fear overwhelms her anger and she switches gears from aggressor to helpless victim. When that happens and it won't take long - I would be surprised if longer than 2-3 days - you have to manage your "built in" protector response. You will feel an intense desire to comfort her. She is going to try to make you wear the guilt for her misery. Don't. 

This is a very brief window of opportunity during which she will "hear" you. And that is when you ask her: let me know when you are ready to do two things:
- apologize for the hateful way you have been treating me and
- commit to marriage counseling 

And then shut the heck up. She will likely see that as an opening to draw you into that anxious place you have. Expect that. Prepare for it. When you hear anything other than a firm, positive response to those two things, just be silent and then leave. Don't say another word as each word at that moment implies weakness. 

She will approach again and again trying to blame you. Be silent. Don't respond. When she is convinced you won't break, she will either end it (moving you towards a more sane future), or she will do what you say - moving you one big step towards a saner future.

You can either fix this fast or slow. Fast is you don't immediately accept her pathetic non-apologies. Slow is you accept tiny efforts on her part to improve. Those tiny efforts mean nothing. When she snaps - you either force a hard look in the mirror and commitment to change, or you soothe her and get nothing done.







Downtrodden said:


> I threw my shield up at being psychoanalyzed and applied to an outdated theory suggesting that I'm just a glutton for the punishment and am getting some sort of twisted satisfaction from it. "Downtrodden you are an enabler of abusive behaviour" was the first gem of advice I received from AFEH. I wouldn't exactly call that "good advice", but that's my opinion.
> 
> I will take advice from someone who's dealt with it personally. I'll take that any day of the week over Wikipedia psychology (no offense to amatuer psychologists). You've raised good points, and that thread does sound familiar. I'm afraid that, by backing down and not nipping this in the bud when it first started to develop, I have contributed to the growth of the problem and now it's gotten out of control. I've made attempts to rectify it when I realized this, but it seemed too little too late. When this first cropped up, I thought it was something that would pass, just a hormonal spike or something of that nature, not something that would become a chronic issue to be dealt with every day. So I did let it go, let it slide and tried not to make an uncomfortable, volatile situation any worse than it was. But, it got worse, and by the time I started trying to put my foot down, the concept of me getting any respect seemed alien to her. Once she got that taste of control, I suppose she wanted to cement it. Judging by her parents relationship, I guess it would seem perfectly normal for her to control me. Everything I've seen of my in-laws has been much the same, albeit to a lesser extent. On the other hand, I grew up in a family utterly dominated by an abusive father, so it's doubtful that either of us have a healthy, working knowledge of what a balanced relationship is supposed to be like, and perhaps I tipped the balance too far in her favor in an attempt to be as disimilar to my own father as possible.
> 
> I'll pick up those books this week. I've noticed _No More Mr. Nice Guy_ being tossed around as a good reference. The other is new to me, but I'll give them both a read. The "get a life" part, that's a work-in-progress. It's been difficult for either of us to do much of anything due to our financial situation, but we are both starting new, higher paying jobs this month and moving into a new apartment, so I'm excited about the possibilities that a new place and a fresh start may offer us. I think it'll be a great catalyst to get things headed into a healthier direction before all hope is completely lost. I have a cell phone on the way through UPS as of last night, so there's that. The hobbies, the activities, those will come with the new job, and we're both very excited about those prospects. Getting back to the gym will be a godsend.
> 
> 
> 
> That's precisely what I do, it just doesn't seem to have that desired effect. In fact, it only serves to make her even angrier that I can stay calm and keep a firm, even tone in those situations. She hates that most of all, I think. The same goes for the next bit. I try to adopt that same tone and diffuse the situation, but eventually it will get to that point. Unfortunately, and the reason that it's been so difficult to restablish that level of respect I deserve, she's taken to going straight for the 'D' word at the slightest provocation. If I say I don't like something, or there's a problem, or that we really need to talk about what's bothering me/her, it's not even five minutes before it comes down to "well just divorce me, then, you obviously don't care about me/love me". I have to admit, I am _terrified_ of the divorce word, and so she's learned that instead of using that as her very, very last line of defense, it's become her vanguard catchphrase to swing every tiny situation back into her favor. That, my friend, is when it all falls apart and me listening to my music without headphones becomes a matter of whether or not we should stay married.
> 
> The part about divorcing is key, indeed. It's obvious that it's the last thing I want to do, and I don't know if I can handle the stress of going through a divorce at this point. I'm a bundle of damn nerves anymore. I've never been willing to leave her, and with that you seem to have hit the nail right on it's ugly head.
> 
> What to do about that is another tricky question.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Downtrodden

I think I'm going to go ahead and pick up the book today. It can't hurt to get a running start. I'm not going into it looking for reasons to leave my wife, quite the opposite in fact, and I know she's a very strong person when she has her proper footing, so to speak. This gives me hope that we can get this thing beat. 

Thanks, and you too. I'll let you know how long it takes me to pick my jaw off the floor after reading this book.


----------



## Downtrodden

MEM11363 said:


> D,
> If you can pull this off, the results will astonish you. Prepare yourself mentally for her threats to leave. Imagine yourself a year from now, with someone new, who loves and respects you. Someone who would look at you in shock if you asked: would you divorce me over wearing headphones, keeping in touch with my family, etc. Imagine walking out the door with that person to visit your mom/sister and they are happy and smiling. Feeling calm as you sit on the couch with them.
> 
> Soon your W will again threaten a D, when she does, don't respond at all. Say nothing. When she freaks and escalates - AND SHE WILL - picture yourself in that happy future.
> When she starts to pack, go and listen to music, or go for a walk.
> 
> Remember this as if your sanity depended upon it: fighting, this type of fighting is not about logic, fairness, or decency. It is actually about emotional stamina. She has essentially learned how to key into your anxiety response. When she does that with the threat of D, you spin yourself into a bad state where you hemmorage emotional energy. Not only do you feel awful "in the moment" but the longer it lasts the more exhausted you are afterwards.
> 
> The good news: you are an intelligent guy, and can teach yourself how to rewire your emotional response patterns. And you can do so in a short time if you are determined.
> The "not so good" news: the way your wife manages HER anxieties is by transferring them to you. Generally when you freak out, it reassures her she is in control and that calms her down. Oops - that means when she gets anxious and you stay calm she is going to completely lose it.
> 
> That means she she will do stuff you have never seen before. Because the primary path she knows to being calm is to make you - anxious.
> If you prepare, and then refuse to engage with her - she will get more aggressive until her fear overwhelms her anger and she switches gears from aggressor to helpless victim. When that happens and it won't take long - I would be surprised if longer than 2-3 days - you have to manage your "built in" protector response. You will feel an intense desire to comfort her. She is going to try to make you wear the guilt for her misery. Don't.
> 
> This is a very brief window of opportunity during which she will "hear" you. And that is when you ask her: let me know when you are ready to do two things:
> - apologize for the hateful way you have been treating me and
> - commit to marriage counseling
> 
> And then shut the heck up. She will likely see that as an opening to draw you into that anxious place you have. Expect that. Prepare for it. When you hear anything other than a firm, positive response to those two things, just be silent and then leave. Don't say another word as each word at that moment implies weakness.
> 
> She will approach again and again trying to blame you. Be silent. Don't respond. When she is convinced you won't break, she will either end it (moving you towards a more sane future), or she will do what you say - moving you one big step towards a saner future.
> 
> You can either fix this fast or slow. Fast is you don't immediately accept her pathetic non-apologies. Slow is you accept tiny efforts on her part to improve. Those tiny efforts mean nothing. When she snaps - you either force a hard look in the mirror and commitment to change, or you soothe her and get nothing done.


Have you published a book that I can flip through? In all seriousness, that is very sound advice and I can't thank you enough for providing that. I'll have this page bookmarked so that I can come back to it when everything starts to blow up. You've mentioned a few things that should have been so obvious before but I never managed to catch onto, especially about preparing for what's coming and refusing to engage. Even when I knew what was coming, I wasn't _prepared_ to deal with it properly. 

Thank you.


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## Runs like Dog

You could have her arrested for bigamy since this is clearly my wife. 

Seriously though, I see some similarities. I've discovered that the best approach to paranoid psychopaths with a martyr/tyrant streak is simply never engage them seriously. I was talking to my wife the other day and I mentioned in passing after she started having a minor meltdown over who remembers anymore that she truly and deeply did not like me or treat me in any way that showed me she liked me. She really didn't argue, she just defended it - but I wasn't really listening at that point and we got in the car and went to Trader Joe's as planned. Her new thing is to tell me every day, all day I'm some kind of 'bully'. Oh you want to make a pot of coffee? You're a bully. You want to adjust the thermostat 1 degree? You're a bully. And so on. Usually followed by "If you don't do what I want I'm going to have to kill you..." etc etc etc. (that's a direct quote).

To be honest I don't pay much attention. It's just noise. It's like throwing sand into a jet engine and listening to it grind. Blah blah I'm going to hit you on the head and put you in the.....blah blah blah you suck you monster I hate you blah blah everything's your fault I'm a victim.

This is what martyr-tyrants do. They vent and vent and vent some more. It never stops. It's like a hot spring that's always gushing steam and sulfur.


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## Downtrodden

Runs like Dog said:


> You could have her arrested for bigamy since this is clearly my wife.
> 
> Seriously though, I see some similarities. I've discovered that the best approach to paranoid psychopaths with a martyr/tyrant streak is simply never engage them seriously. I was talking to my wife the other day and I mentioned in passing after she started having a minor meltdown over who remembers anymore that she truly and deeply did not like me or treat me in any way that showed me she liked me. She really didn't argue, she just defended it - but I wasn't really listening at that point and we got in the car and went to Trader Joe's as planned. Her new thing is to tell me every day, all day I'm some kind of 'bully'. Oh you want to make a pot of coffee? You're a bully. You want to adjust the thermostat 1 degree? You're a bully. And so on. Usually followed by "If you don't do what I want I'm going to have to kill you..." etc etc etc. (that's a direct quote).
> 
> To be honest I don't pay much attention. It's just noise. It's like throwing sand into a jet engine and listening to it grind. Blah blah I'm going to hit you on the head and put you in the.....blah blah blah you suck you monster I hate you blah blah everything's your fault I'm a victim.
> 
> This is what martyr-tyrants do. They vent and vent and vent some more. It never stops. It's like a hot spring that's always gushing steam and sulfur.


That is scary. I have a feeling that this is where my wife is headed if we don't pump the breaks and figure this out. I don't want a martyr-tyrant to hit me in the head and put me in the... I like to think I can handle a lot of crap, but that'll be the day that you'll find me running naked through the streets foaming at the mouth with glazed eyes and nubs where my fingers used to be.


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## MEM2020

D,
I have not published a book, I have however thought about it quite seriously. I am glad this helped you.
Sometimes people find that keeping a "feelings" journal helps them. 
You could do something a bit more advanced which is to also include a predictive feelings section.
The typical version goes like this:
1. I melted down today over ...
2. She melted down today because my mom called
3. We got in an argument over headphones today and she threatened to divorce me. After half hour I apologized and she calmed down

The weekly forecast:
1. She is going to go nuts over my cell phone: I expect it and know that staying calm is the only way to conserve my emotional energy. I expect ....
2. I plan to start visiting my family every week, I will tell her on Tuesday - she might melt down right away - but if she can tell I expect it, she might wait a few hours and then hit me unprepared - I am going to expect a non stop set of seemingly random blowups during the next week - as she attempts to get me on the Anxiety Express to drain me of the strength to act independently
3. On Wednesday I am going to let her know that once a week will be guys night out - i must have a death wish but the truth is I refuse to be prisoner anymore - I wonder if she will be clever enough to do the "indifference thing - where she acts so cold and says nothing is wrong". I should expect that

Actually I am going to write a list of my anxiety triggers:
1. She threatens to divorce me
2. She refuses to accept my apology even when she was abusing me
3. She ignores me when we are together - silent treatment
4. She ignores my calls/texts/emails
5. She screams at me or says cold hateful things
6. She pushes me away when I try to hug her 
7. She refuses a kiss or sexual advance
8. She won't say "I love you" back to me
Thursday
9. She says "I am not sure I can take much more of this" low key divorce threat
10. She says things in word or tone that imply something bad and then denies saying it and attacks me for accusing her

I expect some combo of the above today - Thursday 
I will make notes on what she does and when. And I will:
- ignore her provocations
- ignore it when she says something mean that I know she will deny
- i will let her initiate the I love you, hug, kiss, sex thing this week. If she initiates I will respond. 
I accept she may initiate, get mento respond, just to reject me. Because she is getting crazily determined to break my calm.

Friday:
Everything she does today - I will ask myself: is she trying to hijack my emotional state using a method above?
If she finds new methods I will add them to my list. 
- trying to start an argument by being critical of something I have done - cooking - cleaning 
- trying to argue by saying that I promised her "something" when what she claims is not true

D,
Take this list and add to it. She has a standard list of tactics, write them down, prepare for them. Define your response in advance. 
She may try new ones: "get out of my bed". Don't argue on that one, just find the couch and then go stay with a friend until she apologizes.
Don't force bed type proximity on someone who is destabilizing. Too much risk. 

If she asks you to leave the apartment. Same thing - pack and leave. Once you get somewhere else - set up a checking account and redirect your paycheck into it.
Say theme: don't force physical proximity - it is too risky in this type situation. 





Downtrodden said:


> Have you published a book that I can flip through? In all seriousness, that is very sound advice and I can't thank you enough for providing that. I'll have this page bookmarked so that I can come back to it when everything starts to blow up. You've mentioned a few things that should have been so obvious before but I never managed to catch onto, especially about preparing for what's coming and refusing to engage. Even when I knew what was coming, I wasn't _prepared_ to deal with it properly.
> 
> Thank you.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Halien

Downtrodden,

Really not much to add, because MEM has brought up the reality you must face in addressing this. 

Basically, I wanted to stress a couple of points that overlap what he said, though, because I think that it will be very important. I'm just a guy, like you, so I hope you take the advice that helps, and leave the rest.

I believe that you have to see this future state MEM mentioned, but bring it home to today in your mind. Ask yourself what are the basic, reasonable assumptions that a man or woman must be able to make in a marriage. Shouldn't a man be able to communicate freely with his biological family? To own a phone? To find harmony between his personal life and his married life?

It may be helpful to write down some of these basic assumptions about what is normal. Focus on them now, while adhering to a plan that gets your marriage to that future state. In other words, pick your battles. Don't fight every detail every day, but claim what matters in your progression. When your wife contronts you about owning a pone, or calling friends, don't let it escalate. Its more important, I believe, to convey a calm self-assurance of what is right. With your expressions and the way you defend the changes you make, just absolutely sure that you treat her like she is the one who is extreme, with skewed expectations. The most important part of this is that she sees your resolve to cling to some basic expectations of your boundaries, and that SHE is the abnormal one for pushing the issue.

But she didn't get this control overnight. It came along with some very positive parts of your relationship, parts that you want to keep. So, make it your plan to be methodical in reasserting your equal standing in the relationship. In other words, choose one thing at a time, but accept her in every area except when she crosses those boundaries. If you garner a significant improvement, don't be afraid to reinforce your connection with her before moving on. I just think that you have to start thinking like a strategist, because this unhealthy behavior pattern in her is just as methodical.

In the end, it is possibly embedded enough that you may have to risk losing the relationship to save it, though. If you don't respond in the way she has programmed you too, there is no way to really predict how she will respond, despite your attempts to control the process of recapturing equal ground in this relationship.


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## MEM2020

Down,
What Halien suggests will not work during the next 12 months. You cannot simultaneously stay emotionally enmeshed and protect your sanity. You need to decide.
Also: you must not discuss why you have a cell phone, or why you are visiting your family. Because the very act of conversation implies that she has the right to even raise that topic with you. She doesn't. And I can abso***inlutely guarantee one thing: the BEST way to avoid having her hijack your emotional state, and paralyze you with anxiety, is to engage in conversation with her when she is acting inappropriately aggressive. Because engaging in that conversation, reinforces the master/servant dynamic.

D - ask yourself why I am so fluent in this area? When your wife acts crazy - and you don't engage - she knows why. She knows she has been out of line - she wants you to set boundaries, she knows this is bad stuff on her side. 

Halien is right about one thing: you need to list what "rights" you are going to take back. 
As for picking your battles, the way this works in your situation:
- if her request is reasonable, AND it is asked respectfully - you accommodate her
- if the request is not so reasonable, but she asks nicely, offer some compromise that you feel is fair to both of you - expect her to escalate - and when it happens - just be silent
- crazy requests: I need to review your cell phone use whenever I want: don't discuss - don't debate - if you need to just smile and shake your head no

All of this is fair. And all of it is focused on resetting her sense of what is acceptable to you. 



QUOTE=Halien;877806]Downtrodden,

Really not much to add, because MEM has brought up the reality you must face in addressing this. 

Basically, I wanted to stress a couple of points that overlap what he said, though, because I think that it will be very important. I'm just a guy, like you, so I hope you take the advice that helps, and leave the rest.

I believe that you have to see this future state MEM mentioned, but bring it home to today in your mind. Ask yourself what are the basic, reasonable assumptions that a man or woman must be able to make in a marriage. Shouldn't a man be able to communicate freely with his biological family? To own a phone? To find harmony between his personal life and his married life?

It may be helpful to write down some of these basic assumptions about what is normal. Focus on them now, while adhering to a plan that gets your marriage to that future state. In other words, pick your battles. Don't fight every detail every day, but claim what matters in your progression. When your wife contronts you about owning a pone, or calling friends, don't let it escalate. Its more important, I believe, to convey a calm self-assurance of what is right. With your expressions and the way you defend the changes you make, just absolutely sure that you treat her like she is the one who is extreme, with skewed expectations. The most important part of this is that she sees your resolve to cling to some basic expectations of your boundaries, and that SHE is the abnormal one for pushing the issue.

But she didn't get this control overnight. It came along with some very positive parts of your relationship, parts that you want to keep. So, make it your plan to be methodical in reasserting your equal standing in the relationship. In other words, choose one thing at a time, but accept her in every area except when she crosses those boundaries. If you garner a significant improvement, don't be afraid to reinforce your connection with her before moving on. I just think that you have to start thinking like a strategist, because this unhealthy behavior pattern in her is just as methodical.

In the end, it is possibly embedded enough that you may have to risk losing the relationship to save it, though. If you don't respond in the way she has programmed you too, there is no way to really predict how she will respond, despite your attempts to control the process of recapturing equal ground in this relationship.[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020

Halien,
Sometimes I reread my posts and am embarrassed. 

This is one of those times. What I should have said yesterday in commenting on your very well thought out and constructive post was:

DT,
Halien has made a lot of good points. The one area I think you should initially be careful about is in "reinforcing your bond with her". Right now your bond to her is too strong. So much so that she is able to control your emotional state and through it, your behavior in a very scary manner. 

So this ties in to the suggestion to have a plan/strategy. One element of your plan has to be: How long does my W need to consistently demonstrate an absence of abusive/threatening behavior before I begin to give her positive encouragement?

Think about that for a while. I was wrong in my initial post - something I think H was tactfully pointing out. You can't make her wait 6-12 months to give her encouragement. She needs to know she is loved also. This is for you to evaluate. 

And you need to observe - when you give her love/support - does that increase or decrease her overall level of aggression towards you. Generally she will be fairly consistent. There is some level of emotional support/love from you that will produce the best results. 

In the meantime you need to resist the intense desire you will feel to thank her profusely for letting you have a cell phone. You can however make it all about her:
"The more trust and respect you show me, the happier you will be over time"

Of course - DT - that means you actually have to perform - and not violate her trust. 




Halien said:


> Downtrodden,
> 
> Really not much to add, because MEM has brought up the reality you must face in addressing this.
> 
> Basically, I wanted to stress a couple of points that overlap what he said, though, because I think that it will be very important. I'm just a guy, like you, so I hope you take the advice that helps, and leave the rest.
> 
> I believe that you have to see this future state MEM mentioned, but bring it home to today in your mind. Ask yourself what are the basic, reasonable assumptions that a man or woman must be able to make in a marriage. Shouldn't a man be able to communicate freely with his biological family? To own a phone? To find harmony between his personal life and his married life?
> 
> It may be helpful to write down some of these basic assumptions about what is normal. Focus on them now, while adhering to a plan that gets your marriage to that future state. In other words, pick your battles. Don't fight every detail every day, but claim what matters in your progression. When your wife contronts you about owning a pone, or calling friends, don't let it escalate. Its more important, I believe, to convey a calm self-assurance of what is right. With your expressions and the way you defend the changes you make, just absolutely sure that you treat her like she is the one who is extreme, with skewed expectations. The most important part of this is that she sees your resolve to cling to some basic expectations of your boundaries, and that SHE is the abnormal one for pushing the issue.
> 
> But she didn't get this control overnight. It came along with some very positive parts of your relationship, parts that you want to keep. So, make it your plan to be methodical in reasserting your equal standing in the relationship. In other words, choose one thing at a time, but accept her in every area except when she crosses those boundaries. If you garner a significant improvement, don't be afraid to reinforce your connection with her before moving on. I just think that you have to start thinking like a strategist, because this unhealthy behavior pattern in her is just as methodical.
> 
> In the end, it is possibly embedded enough that you may have to risk losing the relationship to save it, though. If you don't respond in the way she has programmed you too, there is no way to really predict how she will respond, despite your attempts to control the process of recapturing equal ground in this relationship.


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## pansy

Down, 

I realize this is an old post and I can only hope you still read replies. I regret I was unable to read all the responses to your posts, however, I have to respond before I am discovered online without supervision. For anyone who doesn't understand how a person (on man in your chauvinistic world) ends up in these circumstances., view a world where your significant other threatens everyday to take away you child, your son, the light of your life, on a daily basis, and if you have never dealt with the completely mother biased world of parent custody you can understand the relevancy of such fears, you can't possibly know the power that has. 

My wife continually does everything in her power to cut me off from the outside world. IM with any friend is forbidden. Our latest confrontation based purely on the discovery that I have a Facebook account where in three years I posted one entry that has nothing to do with my personal life. I have seen my best friend once in our five years of marriage. If I mention anything I have just told you to anyone I am accused of "Emotionally Cheating." 

When I attempt to talk to my wife I am immediately shutdown, however I am immediately and constantly accused on "not communicating" I feel like I have to keep any friend I may make, male of female, a secret. but keeping secrets violates our "trust'

I don't know how to protect myself. I am the sole breadwinner, my wife cannot work due to "injuries" she happened to receive a month after my son was born. 

Her Doctors want to send her to rehab due to Independence on painkillers.

I know everyone will have their opinions, and they are valued and respected, but what legitimate legal rights do I have where the medication abuse is still perfect legit due to her ability to manipulate even her Dr.s? 

I guess at this point I have overstepped the original circumstances you described, the reason I chose I could respond to your post is it is truly the only description I could find that really is what I am experiencing.

I can no longer stand to live in an environment where I am made to feel like to feel guilty for attempting to live like a normal, rational human, but cannot stand the idea of losing my son. 

Unfortunately I live in a world where i have already lost one child to the system of child custody, where my ex was ranted full custody of my daughter even though her mother spends my child support payments on hair appointments even though my daughter doesn't have a winter coat. I have even been told by child support enforcement that the practices used against me were unlawful although there was no legal way to protect myself.


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## EleGirl

pansy,

If you want some support here, start your own thread and put the above post as your first post.

I'll see you on your own thread.


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## He'sallright

Downtrodden said:


> I've tried everything I can think of. I've gone through letting her get her way, I've put my foot down and tried to establish myself, I've tried a mix of the two; none of it changes much of anything. Things might be different for a while, maybe a week or so, but something always happens to knock it back down.
> 
> I have pointed that out, yes. If you bring up anything that she can't navigate her way past or else she'd have to stare it in the face, I.E. something that is blatantly truthful and she can't thwart, she flies off the handle and any hope of _some_ semblance of a reasonable conversation is instantly shot to pieces. That's when the "just divorce me" rigamorrole begins and there's a complete refusal to face any logical facts.
> 
> She doesn't get her way anymore, and that's where this enormous amount of stress is coming from. It's a daily battle where I'm struggling to be a whole person and catching almighty hellfire because of it. I'm not a weak person and I've never been what you would call a "nice guy", so there's that unavoidable butting of heads that HAS to stop. A high-conflict relationship is like pulling teeth day after day.
> 
> I refuse to give into her emotional vampirism anymore, and I'm looking for a way to save our relationship without being her pet. I think I deserve a normal life.



This is just my opinion, but i think you should divorce her. Seriously. Her behavior is far too ingrained for you to really make any progress, in my opinion. I mean, if it were.me, she would have to agree to counseling, medication, and a whole grocery list of other reasonable demands before I would consider giving this relationship another shot. Given the fact that she's "relapsed" so many times in the past after an inch of progress is made should be.a.strong indication that this will likely not end well for you. Get out, now. ...or make an ultimatum, "I am leaving unless A, B, and C happen."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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