# Interesting article on "why?"



## helolover (Aug 24, 2012)

I like Mark Manson. His writing style is interesting and might be perceived as offensive to some. He's down to earth and makes pretty interesting (and spot on, in my opinion) observations and suggestions.

If you're interested, see the attached article on another data point on why people cheat in relationships. I think he breaks it down well. 

Best, 

HL

Why People Cheat in Relationships


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## tonygunner007 (Apr 24, 2015)

Hm! So revealing...


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Very TAMish


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## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

So, the crux is to not date someone who is a big on "self-gratification". He left out how to identify such people. Do they always have a cookie or ice cream cone in their mouth?


Maybe something humming in their pants?


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## Melvynman (Mar 19, 2014)

Don't waste your time reading that article!!!


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## ScrambledEggs (Jan 14, 2014)

I remember it clearly and it was not that long ago - seven years. She was beautiful successful and worked in the same building I did. She was a Director for a company in the same office I was in but our work was entirely separate. We talked often in the office and went to lunch, always in groups, but clearly there was chemistry there.

At the time I was living alone in France because my wife moved back to States as she got "bored" of living an hour from Paris. (Go figure) It turned out to be a year long separation. I was lonely and angry at my wife for leaving me there. I had every reason to pursue this women as she was an "upgrade" in every way to my wife, looks, career, everything, and I was abandoned.

It was a cold December evening and there was a work party in the office. She was there and we talked a good part of the night but I did my rounds as this was a working party. When the party died, we walked out together in the freezing night. There was ice on the sidewalks. She was cold and was likely to miss her train, the last one to her commune, and I had a car. She wanted me to give her a ride home-she mentioned my car and talked about where she lived--it was not so far. Normally I'd be the gentlemen and give her a ride, but I knew if she got into my car I would find myself in her flat and our friendship would be converted to an EA or probably a PA that very night. I remember the look on her face as I drove away. Astonishment. Disgust, surprise as I left her in the cold to walk to the train alone. We hardly talked again. 

So This article is crap. My needs where not met at all. The amount of self gratification in my life was at an all-time low in the romance and intimacy department and then according to Manson, I should have cheated? Any honest article about infidelity has to address the cause of cheating as the willingness to cheat, not the circumstance.

And honestly if my marriage was going good, I can't say the temptation would have been any less ---this women was awesome--, but my resolve to do the right thing would have been just as strong. 

This article is apologetic to cheaters and blame shifting. Garbage.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

I'll make it easy for the author of the article.....

People betray because they can and because they want to.


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## helolover (Aug 24, 2012)

I think the article lends some insight into the "why" question. It doesn't answer the "why" question as that's based on individuals and circumstances. We are all capable of becoming involved in relationships with people we shouldn't. I concur that it's The gift of choice that separates us from our mammalian instinct, and allows up to operate within our individual moral codes. 

We all read materials with our emotional filters on. I understand. I'm a former BS and I used to be angry too. I get it.

BSs have choices too - the choice to make a decision to move through the train wreck of devastation and havoc. The choice to maintain titanium boundaries with their WSs. The choice for self transformation and self improvement through the healing process. The choice to reconcile or not on their own terms. The choice just to move forward and get past the "why" question. 

Rock on.


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## badaboom (Feb 19, 2015)

thatbpguy said:


> I'll make it easy for the author of the article.....
> 
> People betray because they can and because they want to.


I agree with this. This article reads like it's my fault that my husband made the choice to seek out another woman rather than honestly talk to me about what was going on and explore his own urge to do so. He didn't do that, he just did what he wanted to do. So I agree with the self-gratification part, because he just wanted to do what he wanted (to make himself feel better) with no consideration of the wife and child he was abandoning, even while living in the same house.


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## MichinCC (Sep 30, 2014)

I like the self-gratification vs. intimacy equation. I would have to agree.


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## ScrambledEggs (Jan 14, 2014)

MichinCC said:


> I like the self-gratification vs. intimacy equation. I would have to agree.


I guess then I am just a chump for not acting on my urges when the math said I could.


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## Recoveringws (Oct 1, 2014)

While it's so simple to treat people like they are all the same, one grand put down like, "Because they are selfish pieces of ****, that's why!", it's far more complex than that. There is no one answer. First, you have to define the cheating. There are so many kinds - a flirty email is not the same as a multi-year physical affair, yet both are cheating. And frankly, from what I've seen in blog-land, some couples don't agree on what even defines cheating.

And there are different kinds of affairs - the one night stand is not the same as the "exit affair" (where the person cheats as the final act to get out of a marriage/relationship they really no longer want).

And why humans cheat is different for different people. It varies a lot. I think this covers it pretty well, the result of a lot of research. At least food for thought. Some people cheat because they can. Others because they are excitement addicts. Many in response to an unresponsive, neglectful or abusive spouse. Except for your Bill Clinton/Tiger Woods type, most people don't cheat merely because the opportunity presented itself. Happy and content people rarely have affairs. there is always a context behind it concerning themselves and their marriages/relationships. And there are factors that influence it: Opportunity and attractiveness being the primary ones, as well as certain personalities predisposed to things like risk-taking. Anyway. Here it is.

https://affairadvice.wordpress.com/2013/08/16/why-do-we-cheat/


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

I think it would be interesting to see statistics on the number of WS's who, having engaged in an exit affair, lie/deny/gaslight upon being confronted, and even when the BS has evidence of the affair.

I guess it would depend on whether or not the WS actually intended to disclose the affair upon exiting the marriage. After all, he or she could've been doing nothing more than hedging his/her bets... kind of like a monkey swinging from one vine to another.


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## Recoveringws (Oct 1, 2014)

MichinCC said:


> I like the self-gratification vs. intimacy equation. I would have to agree.


Yeah, but often times in very torrid and long-term affairs, the intimacy with the AP is actually what the WS is seeking. An intimacy he/she doesn't have at home, for whatever reason. That's what's reported. That affairs are primarily conducted for emotional reasons. Connections. For the most part, they aren't really about sex (even if they include them), unless it's sex that is largely missing in the marriage.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Recoveringws said:


> Yeah, but often times in very torrid and long-term affairs, the intimacy with the AP is actually what the WS is seeking. An intimacy he/she doesn't have at home, for whatever reason. That's what's reported. That affairs are primarily conducted for emotional reasons. Connections. For the most part, they aren't really about sex (even if they include them), unless it's sex that is largely missing in the marriage.


No doubt real intimacy is an issue in some marriages, but this sounds more like an excuse than a reason. An affair heightens a sense of intimacy but so much of that is caught up in the secrecy and drama of it. Two people pouring out both lies and truth so that they can reveal parts of themselves (pun intended) they are unwilling or unable to reveal to their spouses. If you want emotional intimacy, talk to your spouse or get a divorce if you feel alone in a marriage. Share feelings with friends, families or other people. Affairs are betrayals and make you a worse person for having them. I think it's all too common for people (women especially) to look back on affairs as some sort of "learning experience". They don't regret the affair just parts of it and that they "hurt" someone. They should not be asked to sacrifice happiness but they'll throw someone under the bus to achieve that "happiness". Feelings are fleeting, integrity and self-worth is not.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

**** sapiens developed the institution of marriage to reduce conflict. The deal is that men know that they fathered the children they support. Women don't have to live in polygamy. This contract has always required sanctions to make it stronger. Infidelity was once illegal but largely no fault divorce has taken over.

Men and women have different psychological needs. These are unlikely to coincide over a lifetime, thus the high failure rate of marriage.

It is entirely logical that in a consumer society we replace or upgrade spouses.

Right now in Sweden the parliament is about the pass legislation allowing single women to undergo artificial insemination and IVF. The cost is about $5,000 per woman, which is picked up by the taxpayer. This is an exit affair in advance. The woman rejects all the men in her life and does not want to random hook up guy to be the father. She wants the genes of a healthy donor vetted by the authorities. This is the selfish gene calculating.

Since reproduction, sex and relationships can be separated people will avail themselves of the opportunity.

Cheater naturally swing from branch to branch because if provides the most security.

Infidelity creates a massive shyte test in both directions. The betrayed spouse without children who takes back a cheater makes no sense to me, unless there is some really terrific hysterical bonding reconnection and total communication. When people have children, the hesitation to divorce is often practical. The cheaters probably have this factored into their subconscious calculations of what they can get away with.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Wouldn't it also then be logical for a man who wants to marry a woman who decided to have children through AI and reject the men she finds attractive, to have the legal right to marry her without being legally required to care for her child/ren?


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

LongWalk said:


> **** sapiens developed the institution of marriage to reduce conflict.


Humans have the intrinsic characteristic of one dimensional , simplistic, cause and effect thinking. We seek, "if this happens, that will happen" predictably that sounds elaborate and complex (in other words, sounds "scientific") to explain the subjectivity of human perception and highly unpredictable behavior. Behavioral scientist have been more than willing and find it highly profitable to accommodate such one dimensional , simplistic, cause and effect thinking.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

ThePheonix said:


> Humans have the intrinsic characteristic of one dimensional , simplistic, cause and effect thinking. We seek, "if this happens, that will happen" predictably that sounds elaborate and complex (in other words, sounds "scientific") to explain the subjectivity of human perception and highly unpredictable behavior. Behavioral scientist have been more than willing and find it highly profitable to accommodate such one dimensional , simplistic, cause and effect thinking.


I think you are saying you have no more control over yourself than a baboon? Complexity falls into intellectual as well as emotional categories at the very same levels. We understand our emotions better, the more intelligent we are. We control our behavior and actions more easily when we can understand. By the same token, we can find better reasons to allow ourselves to do things we didn't think we ever would through this same intellectual capacity. 

However, this is philosophical, not scientific. 

Marriage wasn't made to stop conflict. Laws were made and enforced to prevent conflict and lawyers were invented to help those who were guilty be proven innocent. It just so happens, those defense attorneys were so good at skirting punishment, prosecuting attorneys were invented. 

It's all about proving justifications, not integrity or character.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> I think you are saying you have no more control over yourself than a baboon?


Not at all. I'm saying that humans desire that deviation from certain "acceptable" behavior be explained such that the perceived deviation is due to something outside self control and personal responsibility, hence relieving them to some extent of accountability for their actions. How many time have you read where people try to explain cheating (a deviation from acceptable behavior) "scientifically" as more or less, "its all in the DNA." 
I actually "unscientifically" place humans much higher than monkeys; at least when they come to terms that they have the ability of thought, reasoning, and critical thinking. 
I said in another thread that the more reasons you can develop explaining infidelity, the less you have to face the reality that maybe your WS has just lost interest in you: wink2:


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

ThePheonix said:


> Not at all. I'm saying that humans desire that deviation from certain "acceptable" behavior be explained such that the perceived deviation is due to something outside self control and personal responsibility, hence relieving them to some extent of accountability for their actions.


I agree that most WS do this with reasons for their infidelity. Many have said they didn't know why they were unfaithful.



ThePheonix said:


> How many time have you read where people try to explain cheating (a deviation from acceptable behavior) "scientifically" as more or less, "its all in the DNA."


I've read it plenty in the posts of WS and even tried to figure it out myself and came to a conclusion about it. Maybe you read it?



ThePheonix said:


> I actually "unscientifically" place humans much higher than monkeys; at least when they come to terms that they have the ability of thought, reasoning, and critical thinking.


:laugh:



ThePheonix said:


> I said in another thread that the more reasons you can develop explaining infidelity, the less you have to face the reality that maybe your WS has just lost interest in you: wink2:


It's more likely that would have ended in divorce than infidelity. I think they lost respect. Most still have sex with their spouse while cheating. I think they lose respect for themselves at the same time.

I would bet no one else wants to bet half their stuff on them.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

I was thinking about this earlier today, and I'm left w/ the realization that there's really only ever been a single answer w/ respect to "WHY?!?"... because the WS lacked sufficient consideration, esteem, love, regard, and respect for his or her family, home, marriage, and spouse necessary to resist the allure of OW/OM.

And that's pretty much it.

Now... you can crawl all up into the "why's?!?" behind the "WHY?!?" (and, TBH, that's fine... in fact, when reconciling, it's sort of necessary), but, if you think about it, it all comes back to ^this^.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

True Gus. Here's an interesting article from a Psy. D., posted on psychcentral.

Don?t Fall for Infidelity | World of Psychology



> People who cheat have basically lost all hope for their relationship, and all respect for their partner.





> You can go down the easy road and cheat — because, after all, somewhere between 10 and 20 percent of people in relationships do. Or you can acknowledge something is going on with your relationship and work to fix it. Cheating is never a sign of a healthy relationship after all.
> 
> And if you can’t fix it, you’ll do the honorable thing — leave the relationship first. Before cheating.





> Regardless of the reason why a person may turn to infidelity, the reality is that it’s the expression of an underlying issue in that person’s life and/or relationship. And while cheating fixes that problem short-term, it’s just that — a shallow, short-term fix.





> Remember, if cheating was normal or okay, there’d be no need for the secrecy.





> Infidelity — whether real or contemplated (outside of the random fantasy you’d never act upon) — suggests your relationship is in trouble. You can, of course, deny that and say you just need some variety in your sexual life. But if that’s the kind of person you are, you simply shouldn’t be in any long-term, monogamous relationship.





> If you have so little respect for another human being, why are you in a long-term relationship with them?


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

I have posted this in less detail on several threads in an attempt to help various OPs release some guilt and angst. The why behind infidelity is, as Gus alluded to, an absence. All of the things that he listed are sub causes derived from the root cause, lack of intellect. We all make decisions based on our ability to extract, compile, extrapolate and disseminate data. If the computer (brain) is faulty (insufficient) then the resultant data (choice) will be in error.

To say that we are genetically predisposed to cheat is true to a point but only inasmuch as it pertains to a level of physical retardation, which I believe to be present but not necessarily prevalent. In most cases it would be more accurate to say that we have a propensity to cheat based on programming or, more accurately, the lack of it. Think of it this way, a 5yo child would find thinking about quantum physics impossible, not necessarily because he doesn't have the ability genetically but rather because his brain has not yet developed the networking capabilities necessary to contemplate the data with any degree of understanding. As he grows however and is taught (programmed) to think in this manner, his brain develops the necessary networking to allow him to do so and he gains understanding about a subject he once thought impossible to comprehend. It is important to note however that if he were never exposed to the teaching and his brain never fully developed those connections necessary, he may, at some point, have a vague understanding of the concept but the true comprehension is beyond him. His brain simply cannot process data in a way necessary to experience that level of understanding.

As we mature, we are shaped and molded by the sensory input of life's circumstances and our developing brains grow to facilitate our continued existence. As the brain is forced to think, new and more complex synaptic connections are formed and our network expands and interconnects more and more of our brain cells. In so doing, it allows for data to be processed from many different angles and on multiple levels. Simply put, the more complex the neural network the more intelligent the organism. However, in order for the intelligence to be of real value the development must be somewhat uniform in all areas. For instance, a "geek" is someone who may have highly developed technical connections but lacks development in the area of the brain that allows for smooth social interaction. Likewise, an idiot savant may actually present as retarded an yet show signs of superior performance in one particular area. Without uniform development intelligence is suspect.

So, understanding the above, we can see that unless a person receives the necessary stimuli to cause development that they can, and will, be at some level retarded in their development, we all are. Therefore, if this underdevelopment were to occur in the area of philosophical thought, that including accountability, responsibility and empathy, what behavior do you suppose the resultant individual would exhibit? In severe cases, they would be murderers, thieves, rapists, child molesters and the like. In less severe cases they would be liars, embezzlers, cons and cheaters. The level of underdevelopment dictates the level of deviant behavior.

So why do we not just "stimulate" (teach) those affected individuals and put an end to deviant behavior. The answer is simply we cannot. Like all other cells in the body, once the age of growth is over, it is over. It is not possible for a man who grew to 5'8" to decide at 30 he wants to continue to grow to 6'1". The growth period in finite. It is the same for neurons, once the growth stage is complete the person's intellect is set. As a society, a culture and a world we are not providing the stimuli necessary to provide well rounded development and the result is an entire race of mentally underdeveloped beings. We are all affected to some degree and since our intellect dictates or behavior many of us behave in a manner inconsistent with what would be considered normal by the less severely retarded among us.

In essence, many of the decisions made by these lesser developed individuals are, to us, ill thought out and that is exactly what they are. They are not making decisions based on sound, logical thought but rather based on limited processing (brain) ability and instinct. They are acting in the only manner they can with the level of development they have attained. They simply have nochoice.


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## Recoveringws (Oct 1, 2014)

staystrong said:


> No doubt real intimacy is an issue in some marriages, but this sounds more like an excuse than a reason. An affair heightens a sense of intimacy but so much of that is caught up in the secrecy and drama of it. Two people pouring out both lies and truth so that they can reveal parts of themselves (pun intended) they are unwilling or unable to reveal to their spouses. If you want emotional intimacy, talk to your spouse or get a divorce if you feel alone in a marriage. Share feelings with friends, families or other people. Affairs are betrayals and make you a worse person for having them. I think it's all too common for people (women especially) to look back on affairs as some sort of "learning experience". They don't regret the affair just parts of it and that they "hurt" someone. They should not be asked to sacrifice happiness but they'll throw someone under the bus to achieve that "happiness". Feelings are fleeting, integrity and self-worth is not.


No, it's not an excuse. there IS no excuse. But I assure you, unless you're a Bill Clinton/Tiger Woods type of thrill-seeking, serial cheater, there almost always is a "reason". Happy and content people rarely have affairs. I realize it's difficult for some people to acknowledge that their cheating partner had a reason for choosing the bad choice they made, because frankly it may make them (the BS) look in the mirror. But it's reality. Research supports it. You can argue all you want, but affairs simply just don't come out of the blue.

"According to many psychologists and scholarly works, people cheat because they are not getting their needs met in their current relationship. Some of those needs may be a need to feel attractive, to feel young, or to connect through shared interests. According to Dr. Willard F. Harley, Jr., who has created the Marriage Builders® website and program, “there is usually a dissatisfaction with marriage that stems from the failure to meet an important emotional need.”

He talks about “love-units,” or the way that people feel appreciated and connected within their marriages (some people need conversation, for example, others need concrete acts of service or romantic gestures). When a partner is not hearing that they are loved in a way that makes sense to them, they become vulnerable to an affair.

Put simply, the extent to which we feel loved, desired, wanted, understood and our most critical emotional needs are being met within a relationship has a direct impact on the chances that a spouse will stray. Happy and content people rarely have affairs."

You can deny this basic truth, but in doing so, I think one misses an opportunity to understand "why" it occurred. While it's simple to just say, "All cheaters are horrid, selfish people! Almost as bad as murderers! I was the PERFECT SPOUSE!!", I think it is kinda inaccurate in most cases. Self-satisfying and dismissive, yes, but probably not correct.

If you don't understand "why" your partner chose it, how can you reconcile? Even if you don't reconcile, how can you even choose whether to reconcile without knowing "why"? To me, it seems self-evident. But yes there is a difference between "reason" (eg, "this is why I was so unhappy that I chose to do this, even if it was the wrong way to respond to my unhappiness"), and "excuse" ("I was ENTITLED to do this because my spouse sucks"). Huge difference!


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