# After the Lies



## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

I'd be interested to hear community feedback about the current phase I'm locked into. I have had some very good advice but this zone is just plain weird.

I've dealt with the OM, I've notified his wife and we have just had the STD's test (waiting on results) but now what? 

Against the promise I made to myself and a promise I made to my older brother (the only one in my family who knows - on her side only her best friend knows) I abused the tripe out of my partner.

I guess that's rage for you. There have been some pretty ugly texts as well. It came to the boil when she allowed access to FB and it was clear that I had all but been expunged from her life. 

One photo of me from 5 years ago. The rest is her and her friends and our kids and a few strangers (to me) - couples, other people. Nothing really suggestive except her interests are listed as "Men". I note she likes the photos of the "Ink boys" - blokes with tats, soccer physique types. Bad boys??

No big deal (except I'm the antithesis of that image) but clearly she was, IMO, projecting a message that she was single. I guess it was just me feeling delicate but her counter to my comments was that I have shown little interest in FB and she was not wanting to tread on my privacy or something like that (I do have an FB page which I rarely visit - I find the whole FB thing mind numbing. For her it's the very social outlet it is designed for).

That's when I blew up "protecting my privacy!!!" - "BS,BS,BS..." I bellowed. Then the hang-up and then the texts.

This the pattern. I blow up, she puts facile, IMO, counter arguments like the very last text yesterday. "You have a choice to make. I have no reason to lie now. I am trying to get to a point where we can actually work on saving our relationship. Right now you just want to abuse me - calling me a liar and a cheat. You need to work out if you can get past that. Calling me those things over and over is not helping. You need to decide if you actually want to believe what I say or not".

Then we go back to a more level playing field and carry on with the day to day as if nothing happened. At night I lie in bed next to her and I'm feeling mega arousal but it goes nowhere. Nothing is going to happen. It's like she is holding all the cards.

People here say do this and do that but I'm in this limbo land where my heart has been smashed. I feel imasculated and I have this expectation that she will approach me and we'll move to level 1 of reconcilliation.

Yes I'm very conscious of doing it for me, getting my mojo back, doing the 180 but at the moment I'm still in this shocked, angry numb state. I'm just not at that point where I can act entirely independently. Parenting is about it at this point. Just thought I'd put it out there.

Horizon.


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

Go to Dr. Phil's website and type in Deal breaker in his search bar. It might help you decide to stay or leave.


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

Thorburn said:


> Go to Dr. Phil's website and type in Deal breaker in his search bar. It might help you decide to stay or leave.


Thanks Thorburn


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

Horizon said:


> I'd be interested to hear community feedback about the current phase I'm locked into. I have had some very good advice but this zone is just plain weird.
> 
> I've dealt with the OM, I've notified his wife and we have just had the STD's test (waiting on results) but now what?
> 
> ...


The one who fears losing the relationship least, holds all the cards. This is true in any negotiation, and a marriage is, among many other things, also a negotiation.

Your wife is more willing to walk away from the marriage than you, and she knows it. So she plays her trump card, the implication that you MUST forgive her ... or what? the marriage ends? That's the implication.

FACEBOOK

What your wife did is what many cheaters do. She really did disconnect from you. It must have been obvious to many, especially other women, that your wife was done with you. One picture from five years ago? Trust me, that's one more than many betrayed husbands get on their cheating wives' facebook pages. The fact that one of her interests is "MEN"? Wow. Yes, it's disrespectful to you, but it also makes her look very immature, childish, or worse yet, cold and unloving, don't you think? People who can see her page who knows she's married see nothing about you and that she is interested in "MEN"? She has young children, whose friends could look at this page, even if they must sign on using their parents accounts. What is she, in high school, trying to get boys to like her?

CALM YOURSELF DOWN. Whatever is going to happen, is going to happen. You can't control your wife. You can only control yourself and what you are willing to accept and not accept in a marriage. After the kids in bed, tell your wife that you want her to revise her Facebook page. You want to be mentioned prominently. I confess somewhat of an ignorance regarding Facebook, but in the "about me" section it should say something like "Loving Wife of Horizon and mother of child 1 and child 2". 

Get some pictures of you, her and your children, get some pictures of you and her, and get some pictures of just you, get ones that are flattering to you, and have her post them on her facebook. Her profile picture should be of just you and her, smiling and touching, arms around each other, something along those lines, not with the kids. THIS IS ABOUT YOU FEELING BETTER. It also is about her reaction to your request. It also is about HER KNOWING THAT YOU CARE ENOUGH TO DEMAND SUCH A THING. Facebook is important to her, and you have ignored it. Don't think for a minute that she didn't notice how little you cared about what she put on Facebook to show the world, and part of your "omission" was her resentment and punishment of you. She may put up a short fight. Do not let your feelings be easily hurt and insist on the pictures and the change in about me.

Does your facebook page have a profile picture of you? Any pictures of you at all? Any information about yourself? If so, it may be that she really didn't want to put TOO MUCH of you on it because or your apparent disdain for it. Yes, BS on the protecting your privacy thing, but don't belabor the point, just get her to change the Facebook page to make you happy. Her willingness to do it tells you a lot.

Oh, and finally, the interests of "men" and "ink boys" have to go. They are disrespectful for you. It is OK if she likes men (you in particular) or tattoos, but it is disrespectful of her to publicly post it. Maybe you like looking at Jennifer Aniston's butt in her latest movie, but you don't go and post that on Facebook, not if you're married. It's just disrespectful.

CALLING HER A LIAR AND A CHEAT

Probably wrong to call her that but, she is, in fact, a liar and a cheat. Nevertheless, maybe you're short, fat, and bald, but there's no reason to keep calling you that. You are going to have to tell her that you will try to refrain from the name-calling as long as she is working on the marriage and doing what you need to rebuild trust, but that she is going to have to expect that from time to time, you will have things that trigger you and make you upset and you WILL slip up and call her that from time to time.

YOU NEED TO WORK OUT IF YOU CAN GET PAST THAT

She lied for a long time. You are not going to be able to just "get past that" that easily. It is a process that takes time. You will get past it faster if she does things to help you. Tell her that. Shouldn't your spouse help you deal with painful emotional traumas? (especially if it's of their own making)?

YOU NEED TO DECIDE IF YOU ACTUALLY WANT TO BELIEVE WHAT I SAY OR NOT

Trust is always earned. She earned your trust once, and blew it, now she must earn it again. She lied for a long time. You are not going to be able to just "get past that" easily.

MEGA AROUSAL

This is natural. Reclaim your territory. Tell your wife you want this, she was willing to give it to other man, if she wants to stay married, she's going to have to give it to you. This is not negotiable.

YOU ARE IMPORTANT AND YOU HAVE VALUE. Say to yourself out loud: "I am important and I have value." Repeat it a few times in a firm voice. ACT LIKE IT. Stop subjugating your needs to hers. What you want is just as important as what she wants. Do not settle for less.


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

START ASKING FOR WHAT YOU WANT

Don't keep quiet and think she will read your mind, and don't keep quite and just take it if she refuses to give you what you want when you do ask. If it's important to you, tell her so.

If she doesn't want to put you on her facebook or even mention you much or take down her "men" interest or have sex with you, there is not much you can do about it. You can't make her. But you don't have to stay in a marriage where your wife won't do what things she can, which are relatively easy and painless to do, to help you out.


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

Will_Kane said:


> START ASKING FOR WHAT YOU WANT
> 
> Don't keep quiet and think she will read your mind, and don't keep quite and just take it if she refuses to give you what you want when you do ask. If it's important to you, tell her so.
> 
> If she doesn't want to put you on her facebook or even mention you much or take down her "men" interest or have sex with you, there is not much you can do about it. You can't make her. But you don't have to stay in a marriage where your wife won't do what things she can, which are relatively easy and painless to do, to help you out.


Your a good man Will Kane. You've gone to a lot of trouble to put some much needed reality back into my head. You and others have noted my example of a bloke who in the midst of such a sh!t storm has lost his way. Thank you for taking the time.

I was talking to my brother about FB and social media. He plainly believes it is insidious. Let's face it - if my partner says that David Beckham is "hot" and that some other inked sportsman is hot I can't really deny it and I get the point. 

For a bloke like me I've always had to temper that jealous side when another male, actors or sportsman, are referred to as hot by my partner. It's kind of a moment where I think I'm not in the same league and I feel it. But this is normal isn't it? The male ego?

But social media is also a place where certain individuals can have a fantasy life - in essence. Which is what my partner was doing in, to be fair, a pretty straightforward way. It was not over the top and the remarks about "hot" are few and far between. 

The real thing was that I was virtually non existant even though there was an old photo of me and that her profile suggested she was married/defacto but...where the section said family only our kids were listed.

The other point is that the "friends" feed of each other to a certain extent. Suddenly an image of some sculptured stud shows up and there's 3 or 4 girls saying things like "yes please". One part of me suspects that really this is pretty harmless except that now that the cat is out of the bag all of this is loaded with meaning.

Yes, I'm waiting to see exactly what she will do to win back my trust and as yet there is no sign of me recaliming my "territory". 

This is the thing though - I have a sneaking suspicion that despite what she said originally about being sickened at the thought of losing me she is not going to be able to go those extra yards.

Today, and we have had a great family day, I'm feeling like the love has gone for good. This thought is gaining clarity. Maybe it's the death of the old and the birth of the new, whatever the new may be. Some will laugh and say hello! wake up! but that's another aspect of this awful journey. Even the obvious is not always obvious and most of the time you just don't know what to believe.

Once again thanks for your guidance.


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## BobSimmons (Mar 2, 2013)

You are entitled to feel angry, heck even entitled to rage. But you're not entitled to shout and scream at her as some form of externalizing her "punishment". It will not sate the fury you feel inside because where does it stop...when the shouting no longer works, do you lean in closer so she can feel it more?

Whatever moral high ground you have, you surrender it bit by bit because she maybe taking the abuse now as she thinks she may deserve it or as part of her initial remorse but it will get old for her pretty quick and she may use it to just some of her behavior as irrational as that sounds. Think of shouting at a child..after a while they just stop listening.

Taking a moment to yourself when you feel the anger to calm down and talk rationally will not stop you from being a man or reclaiming this lost territory, nor will it make you look weak. The force and impact of your words and thoughts comes from the conviction of which they are delivered.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Horizon said:


> I'd be interested to hear community feedback about the current phase I'm locked into. I have had some very good advice but this zone is just plain weird.
> 
> I've dealt with the OM, I've notified his wife and we have just had the STD's test (waiting on results) but now what?
> 
> ...


Okay I know where you are and its a terrible terrible place but with respect you are doing a few things wrong here 

In terms of any proper and good reconciliation there are some basic 'written in stone' rules and they are on this site in tabulated form

The most fundamental requirement is remorse from the wayward. Simply, if in any way that is undermined you may as well just go straight to the divorce court today

What is that remorse. For the wayward it is being completely honest and open, transparent in every concievable any possible way about the way you brought all this about and what you intent to fix it.

One crucial fact you will both accept is that should you go onwards together life between you will NEVER be the same 
EVER

Part of that is beginning from square one all over again. That means owning up to what you have done as a wayward destructive spouse

this means there has to be full exposure for her FULL. This is how you wrest control from her and for success you have to do it anything less and it's over before its starts

Only her best friend know and your brother.!! That has to change today The moment she has a huge embarrassment about her behavior you will see a difference. She is STILL comfortable in her cheating mode whilst nobody knows anything about it. Because of that she feels untouched and confidant and here's the biggest thing that will make her do it again - she will have ZERO respect for you because she can at will just do it all again with no repercussions as basically nobody knows

Everyone has to know - EVERYBODY. Its the only way you'll actually get her to really deep down admit to any fundamental wrongdoing

I know this is hard my friend but really it is how you deal with this today that will point towards your future with her if there is one. For you to succeed together there has to be mutual respect and balance and right now you still have misguided bucket loads for her and she has very very little for you - you've just made a dent where you need to kick the door off and make her sit up and understand she has to give you an awful lot more than an 'I'm sorry I wont do it again' - 'lets get it all back on then' 

She needs to know that she will not be deciding how this works in the future - you will

( Just read your thread and even moreso I urge you to publicly nail her arse to the wall - you'll soon find out if there's any real love left after that. She deserves that and if truly remorseful will accept everything that goes with it. If she doesn't you'll save yourself years and years of more destruction and heartache


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

She isn't remorseful.

If she isn't remorseful, you haven't got a marriage - you have an arrangement that is convenient - more to her than you I suspect.

As has been said many times before, you have to be prepared to lose your marriage to save it.

That doesn't mean playing "chicken" with your spouse - it means being prepared to walk out of the door - or preferably kick her out - and never look back.

*She is abusing you far more than you are her*; it is easy to ignore names once they have been called. It is easy to ignore somebody shouting at you.

It is not easy to ignore betrayal, disrespect and continued emasculation and contempt. This eats at you. It destroys part of how you defined yourself. It causes very real psychological and emotional wounds that will never heal properly. It is very, very, nasty of her.

You see, your "abuse" to your spouse is words. Her abuse to you is actions.

Look her in the eye and tell her what you need to make the relationship work. She is damaged goods now to you and any other decent man out there. 

If she won't give it to you: walk.

If you don't take control you will be her abused, emasculated, eunuch that is good at babysitting her kids and bringing some cash in. That isn't a marriage. It's an existence - and not a good one at that.


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

Chris989 said:


> She isn't remorseful.
> 
> If she isn't remorseful, you haven't got a marriage - you have an arrangement that is convenient - more to her than you I suspect.
> 
> ...


Chris, I'm in a terrible place at 3.45am. I asked to talk earlier tonight and within moments of me requesting more of a profile of myself (a recent family shot) on her FB we descended to bickering. Her arms crossed with the idea as she defended FB as a place where her married frinds didn't neccessarily have info on their spouses, that they all knew we were together anyway. All true. 

She agreed to an updated photo but with some sarcasm "do it now shall we!". She then went down the path of attacking me about my FB page which didn't feature her - true. But I rarely go there it is as it was when I set it up 3-4 years ago. Her other attack was that I do not use my correct name.

I do in fact use my name plus another name which happened because at the time of set-up I was dealing with the fact that my blood name is different to my birth name. It was a family secret on my father's side which came to light around then. I was sort of giving air to what should have been my correct last name.

I did something similar with a gmail account which I created as a "memorial" to an uncle who died at the age of 6 back in the 1930's. I always felt sad about that little boy never having a life, never growing to be my uncle, and the way my father had recalled that little fella who wanted to go play with his older brothers. Dad remembered saying no to him - "you can't follow us because you are too young" - when they were kids. A regret my father carried. I used to have to call friends and tell them the youtube clip was actually from me!

This fact was used against me tonight when I went down the FB path. My partner has a knack for digressing and going down dead ends - gaslighting etc. Suddenly I was the bloke who could not use his correct name, who doesn't even know who he is. 

Further, she outright said "no" when I offered to include our family portrait on my FB page. "Why" I asked and her odd response was this thing about me no knowing who I am and not using my birth certificate correct name on FB. Which it is except I have added my blood last name as an additional name so it appears as a hyphenated last name.

In the end she repeated and repeated that she can't help me. "I can't make you believe me" etc. She is taking long earned leave and that extended to "I'm exhausted, I can't go through these next weeks with you on my case when I so badly need this rest" - "I could sleep for a week"....we really did shred each other again.

I tried to use the advice - I went after my lack of profile on her FB in a fair and proper way, I said putting "Men" as your interest in your FB profile was inappropriate - ("for Christ sake it's a joke!!"). I said I wanted a loving intimate relationship including sex. "Oh right!, when?. What are you saying? Sex is the last thing on my mind. Do you want it right now!!" - "That's all it's about, you just want someone to f##k, well go out there and get it!" - "I can't just do it, I need to be engaged up here" (pointing to her head). 

From this she slammed me for demanding. I denied this and told her I have tried to be reasonable but you are so defensive... She accuse me of all types of things..."You are loving this, persecuting me..." - not for the first time has she said this and I again firmly squashed the idea as a slur on my character.

It didn't work folks. She even said "What do you expect me to do? Sit here while you back me in to a corner" - "You always do this, you go after people, you grind them down (my paraphrasing)..." - "People can never meet your expectations" - "You have unresolved issues with your mother, you hate her because she didn't protect you from your father...". (I never have thought I hate my mother for this but I would say I both love and hate her). Her point being that therefore I hate / loathe all women.

See, there are layers and layers. 17 years of built up stuff. Personal Sh!t. At one point she broke down and cried saying - "I've had to put up with people...men treating me as worthless my whole life". Here she is targetting me for the last 4 years of being emtionally absent but also revealing a lot about her psych make-up and her attitude to men - not to mention her rude overbearing unreconstructed father who completely lords it over the mother (she will not be controlled tamed by a man I guess). 

I have always believed that her "appetite" for the male species (if I can put it that way) is tied in with this mind-set. A way to dominate, have her own control? Who knows.

Here is the real tough bit people. I am as weak as piss. I'm dependent. Waking up in the middle of this night I could not secure a cuddle which we normally do at different stages of the night and have been this last wekk despite the nightmare. 

It was then that the horrible thoughts of those broken relationships from many years ago came haunting me. The awful feeling of aloneness, the terrible feeling that my partner has, for all her words, moved past me. That all the "on the front foot" advice I'm taking here and using is all for nought.

She is stronger, she holds the cards, she has as someone said "less to lose" and can therefore more easily walk away if need be. I feel she is ahead of the game in that sense and in reality I'm just becoming annoying now. Even after just 11 days since the truth came out I'm kind of cast as a trouble maker - sort of. She has already effectively said & more than once "How long is this going to go on for, how long are you going to hold onto this?" 

I need someone to hold me and make it better, I want it to be her but she isn't going to be Mummy. Shoot, I'm coming apart at the seams here people. I want to be a strong capable bloke but I don't know how to make it happen. Sorry blokes I'm a pathetic piece of you what at the moment. Serioulsy, the real question is how long will it be before she finds a way to do it without me as nanny? I'm completely all over the shop now - no where land.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

You need to separate from her. There seem to be mistakes on both sides and they can be fixed but there is not one bit of respect for you. Total utter disdain to you and your feelings.

Go meet an attorney. Stop the arguments over facebook. If your wife is so rational, she wouldn't have an affair in the first place. Right now, some guilt is holding her back. She will probably get over it sooner or later.


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## Juicer (May 2, 2012)

I agree, she is not remorseful, because no one knows what she did. 

A cheating wife is not looked upon happily today. People look at them with disgust, but because no one knows, she can still hold her head high and not worry about being judged. 

When my XW told me about her affair, I posted something to the effect on FB of "Just got cheated on, looks like I'll be single again," or something like that. I was angry and upset. 
Guess what! Every one knew what had happened, and she was devastated by that. I took the post down not long after, but the damage was done. She could no longer hold any moral high ground for that. 

Now, as for remorse. You know it when you see it. Your wife doesn't have any. 
My XW:
Quit her job, when I told her to. 
And when we got home from her quitting her job, she wrote a NC letter. 
And then she begged me to go to MC. Are you having to beg your wife to go to MC, or are you two even going?
She begged me to eat. 
She begged me to go to IC. 
And she was perfect. She was on her best behavior for a long time. Sex was at the drop of a hat, or would have been if I hadn't...killed my drive for a few weeks...kinda regret doing that now.
She was transparent. I had every password to everything. And if I thought she was sneaking, it was the curb. 
She texted me where she was going, who with, and even sent me pictures so I could have peace of mind. But she rarely left the house because she wanted to be with me. 

And you know what the kicker is?
She did ALL of that, WHILE I was heading for divorce. 

You are wanting to reconcile. 
How much of the above has your wife done?


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## Jasel (Jan 8, 2013)

Hope I'm not coming off as harsh but she's showing you no respect and for the most part you just seem to be taking it. You need to kick her out or start the seperation process. I'd even recommend some individual counseling for _yourself _if you think you can afford it. 

I don't know your story off hand but from what you've said in this thread I'm not sure why you're even trying to stay with that woman the way she's acting.

Like someone else said, the one who is more willing to walk away from the marriage holds all the cards. She's treating YOU like an inconvienence after cheating on YOU and disrespecting YOU, and yet you still stick around and just take it. It's quite obvious who has the control in this situation. And as long as she has it, especially after cheating on you, she's not going to respect you.

If she had any genuine remorse, she'd be willing to meet your conditions, if they're reasonable, and not give you an attitude about it. Your wife is showing no genuine remorse. And you cannot have a genuine reconcilliation without remorse or respect.

You need to change your approach to this situation. Whether it ends in divorce or reconcilliation remains to be seen, but from what you're saying in this thread you aren't doing yourself any favors either way with how you're going about this.


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

Horizon, I really feel for you here.

My wife slowly but surely took me apart. She emasculated me figuratively and, I guess after I agree to having a vasectomy, literally. She did it because it is how she is. She wants to control everything and over our years together I compromised. I let her "win" because I figured I was winning the war, not the battle. I was very, very wrong.

The first time she told me she had been in love with another man (she insisted nothing physical had happened), I reacted by hugging her. The longest relationship I had before our 23 year marriage was 3 months and I felt I messed that up. I have had interest from other women over the last many years. Some very insistent - but I never thought they would measure up to my wife so I declined every time.

I was terrified of losing her. Of not having her touch any more. Of her not hugging me if I needed it.

I thought we were soul mates. I thought I would never find another woman that would put up with me. My moods. My foibles. My blah blah whatever.

Our divorce was finalised about 6 weeks ago. If she walked away tomorrow I wouldn't think twice. I still enjoy her touching me - but she is on very borrowed time and I keep telling her that.

The point is: I think I was where you are now. Part of the battle is accepting that you are not ready to do anything yet. Don't beat yourself up if you can't stand up to her.

Bide your time. Ask for a hug if you really need one. Cry if it helps. God knows I've cried - before and after finding out what a sh1t my ex wife was to me.

This isn't a competition. You only live this life once and that's not enough times to do it in misery. 

I couldn't let go until I realised that I didn't have to. You aren't there yet and that is fine.

I found a great counsellor that helped me get my head sorted and stand up for myself and I guess that saved me perhaps 6 months.

What you are going through is traumatic in the extreme. Don't fight it. Do what you need to to get through.

Keep posting. It helps.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Horizon said:


> Chris, I'm in a terrible place at 3.45am. I asked to talk earlier tonight and within moments of me requesting more of a profile of myself (a recent family shot) on her FB we descended to bickering.
> I have always believed that her "appetite" for the male species (if I can put it that way) is tied in with this mind-set. A way to dominate, have her own control? Who knows.
> 
> Here is the real tough bit people. I am as weak as piss. I'm dependent. Waking up in the middle of this night I could not secure a cuddle which we normally do at different stages of the night and have been this last wekk despite the nightmare.
> ...


You are not alone. Know that

We've all been in your shoes and have come out the other side and are at varying stages of either reconciliation separation or divorce . Just try to focus on maybe short small things your health your fitness, if there is some interest hobby you've always wanted to do now have a look at it. 

Slowly you will feel stronger. It is a day by day situation this. Two steps forward one and a half back !

You can't see the wood for the trees atm and everything coming at you too fast for you to get a real handle on what is happening and how to react to it. 

Feel your strength your inner strength - you will need that but it IS there within you and gradually it will show itself when called upon 

You may feel you need to be hugged or cuddled. I did so. I started cuddling myself for a few moments - it's not quite the same but I got the feeling from that that I am rooting for ME for MYSELF. I quickly realized I might need a cuddle but she is the last person I'd want one from 

It is vital you get yourself mentally placed to wrest the real control in the relationship for your future or else this will never change 

Fk facebook just make your own rules about how you want the near and distant futures to go and play by your rules not hers

Taking control is a tangible thing - you will feel instantly better the moment you feel you have done that. Its the key to your own well being

Hang in there


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

Chris989 said:


> Horizon, I really feel for you here.
> 
> My wife slowly but surely took me apart. She emasculated me figuratively and, I guess after I agree to having a vasectomy, literally. She did it because it is how she is. She wants to control everything and over our years together I compromised. I let her "win" because I figured I was winning the war, not the battle. I was very, very wrong.
> 
> ...


Even this morning I'm in bed and the mega arousal is in overdrive and she's fast asleep, in her fav zone above all else, and I'm gently stroking her back - forlornly knowing that the few sighs of pleasure have nothing to do with what I'm thinking about. Candy store closed. 

I hear what everyone is saying but being proactive is beyond me at the moment. We had a great day yesterday and it descended into what I described when, as the night rolled on, I could not handle that it was just another night as far as she was concerned. She made the evening meal, the kids were happy, we a were happy but I could not go to bed with that new "normal".

I cannot deal with this idea that her default position is that we just carry on like normal and at some point she will magically be loving and intimate with me. When the flick will that be? That's why part of my reasoning (attack) with her 2 days ago included the question - "When are you going to do some of the heavy lifting?" I asked her this question repeatedly last night as she ducked and weaved and all she could manage when nailed was - "I don't know".

What? I asked. No suggestions, nothing about counselling or a night out or a shared piece of lierature on the subject or some Godam thing! Nothing like this has crossed your mind?? then the "I'm exhausted" default etc. etc. etc....

The weather here is perfect right now, glorious and yet I can't give it homage it the deserves. Just roll with it, waiting, wondering when she will come to me and look deeply into my eyes and say...something, anything to give me hope that the first response reconcilliation lines "I can't live without you..." - "the thought of losing you makes me sick..." (sounds like ab grade love story) is genuine.

Now I'm wondering if those intial texts & emails to me when the truth was outed were little more than an auto type shock reaction. Yes she ceased any contact with him (there had been some secret hotmail account correspodence 2 weeks before I busted it) and they hadn't actually seen each other since October 2012 - so she says. And yes he's gone thanks to me scaring the excrement out of him but...

It seems right now that the only option I have is to play her game. Tough it out to see where she goes with it, if she will be able to lead me to that place where we can become an intimate loving couple. Nothing I say or do to bring it fwd is going to work.

This where you clearly see a lack of respect yet again that a more genuine contrite person wouldn't choose this course of action, that she wouldn't put me through this waiting. But she's got nothing else in the quiver. She's stronger, I sort of hover between being balanced and falling in a heap which I can't do because i have a boy and a girl to nuture among all the domestic sh!t that has to be done.

People i'm in my 50's !!!! I've become this older bloke who is burying himself in her eyes. I want to be the one she genuinely doesn't want to lose but I cannot make that happen. Sh!t, I even belive that if I walked today to some crappy shre accommodation around the corner she'd get over me pretty quickly because she effectively has anyway. The final tendons aren't that hard to cut through - know what I mean. 

She's ten years younger - as if she couldn't pull any number of men from corporate blokes like she cheated with to cashed up tradesmen who abound where we live. I'm f**ked every which way. If you see my dignity lying in the gutter somewhere please drop me a line. (self pity off!)


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

*Originally Posted by marduk 
I happened to be thinking today about the past year of my marriage. Everyone on these forums were so instrumental in my being in the great place I am today I thought I would post a note about where I was, where I am, and what I’ve learned.

A year ago my marriage was a mess. After 3 kids my stay at home wife spontaneously decided to start going out with her girlfriends again, including a “girls trip” to Vegas. She started a crazy fitness routine, including marathon running and triathalons. She started leaving me at home with the kids 2-3 evenings a week. A rough summer. I was insecure, controlling, alone, and afraid.

Thanks in part to the folks on this forum, life is much better now. My wife only goes out with her friends maybe once a month, and the last time she did, she came home early, threw her arms around me, and told me she’s so happy she gets to come home to me. She goes to the gym maybe once or twice a week for an hour or so in the early evening. When she does leave on races out of town the whole family will go on a camping trip together so we can be there for her at the finish line. The stress level in the house is much lower, and our happiness and respect for each other is much higher. Are things perfect? No – we still fight, have conflict, and disagree. But they’re shorter-lived, not has hostile, and just plain don’t seem to hurt so much. What’s changed? Me. Here’s what I learned:

1. Let her go. You can fight, hold her back, be controlling… and you’ll just look petty, insecure, and weak. Be cool, act secure, give her a kiss and say “have fun.” If she’s going to cheat or leave, she’s going to cheat or leave. It’s better if it happens sooner rather than later in my book. A marriage is a choice, a decision that’s made one day at a time. You’re in or out. This was really, really hard. But I've learned that nothing lasts forever, life is change. We can grow together or apart. I can't force her to decide to want to be with me.

2. Set boundaries, and then stick to them. I found in my marriage that it wasn’t ok to say “I don’t want you to do that” but it was ok to say “would you be ok with me doing that?” And then hold her to it. 9 times out of 10 the behaviour would go away on its own if I stuck to it. For example: if it was ok for her to be gone 2-3 nights a week so would I. After a couple of weeks she was dying to sit on the couch and watch a movie after we spent the evening with the kids together. Conversely, if it's within your boundaries, be cool with it. I started to let her off the hook for minor annoyances a lot more which cooled the stress levels.

3. Be ok with losing her. Seriously. After one of our last bad fights before things got better, I reconciled myself to thinking this might be it. The end of our marriage and little family. I thought out how things would be living on my own, sharing custody of the kids, etc. And as tough as it would be, made peace with it. It wouldn’t kill me, it wouldn’t kill my kids. Very negative experience and one I’d like to avoid at all costs, but we would survive. This changed my attitude and clinginess significantly… and to be blunt scared the hell out of my wife. Just last month she told me “I think you’d be more ok without me than I’d be without you.” And for our marriage, that balance of neediness works. I think it’s an alpha male thing, not sure but it seems to work.

4. Do my own thing. I’m out at least once or twice a week doing martial arts, yoga, weights, cross-fit, trail running, hanging with buddies… you name it. Gives me perspective and gives my wife time to miss me. And I’m in kick ass shape compared to last year, and now instead of me worrying about my wife getting hit on I’m having to deal with having her be upset because other women check me out when we go out. I’m going on a weekend martial arts training camp… and my wife couldn’t say a word after going to Vegas last year. Another thing: I make sure I either do something fun with the kids when she goes out (she’ll have to decide if it’s more important to miss out on family fun or friend fun) or I have fun while she’s out. Even something stupid like a scotch and cigar in the back yard when the kids go to bed so I can kick back and listen to the complete lack of complaining about the cigar stink. Ahh…

5. Be a father to our children. Not just “quality” time but real time. Conversations, walks in the park, helping with homework, taking them to soccer, etc. all seemed to help big time. Not just with my wife, but with all of us. And I also found my “father voice,” the voice of discipline and reason in the family. My kids listen to me a lot more, not in fear, but they know they have to listen. Now my wife comes to me when the kids don’t listen to her, not the other way around.

6. Get some buddies. Guys need close guy friends to do guy stuff. Complain about their wives. Be stupid and macho. Whatever that means to you, it worked wonders for me.

7. Fight different. Walk away rather than blow up. Mean what you say and stand up to it. For example, if I threaten that if she keeps doing x that means I'll do y, then I bloody well do y if she does x. This had two effects: I thought about what I said more, and so did my wife. I think my wife has a need to be able to hold me at my word, even if that’s a bad thing. Not sure why. Using few words in a fight, slowly and quietly while looking her directly in the eye seems to also work. Once it’s said, don’t repeat it. It is what it is.

8. Act from a place of strength. I don’t think my wife wants a weakling. She may say that she’ll want me to be more intimate, vulnerable, etc… I think that’s actually BS. Or at least that she doesn’t mean weak or actually vulnerable. If you have flaws or weaknesses either accept it and move on or fix it. I don’t let my wife try to fix my flaws any more. If she brings something up and tries to fix it I’ll ask her to mind her own business (gently). Not a behaviour that impacts her, those I’ll always try to listen to her on. But I don't let her judge me or try to live up to her expectations any more. I define myself, I don't let her do that for me.

9. Be decisive. Again I think this is an alpha male thing. Make plans. I planned a few date nights, and didn’t ask what she wanted to do. Instead I planned stuff I thought might be fun for us, and asked if she was having a good time. She was, especially if it was stuff she didn’t normally like to do (one time we went to a tattoo expo – I have one small tattoo and she has none – but got us out of our element and we had a blast!) Now if she asks me “what do you want to do” I answer with what I want. Works in bed too – I just made sure she felt comfortable in saying “no.” Don’t bully, be decisive and adaptable.

10. Know what I want from life. This is hard in today’s world. I had to pull my head out of my ass and figure out that I don’t want to sit on the couch every night and watch TV. So now I don’t. At least not every night.

11. Do more macho stuff. Fix something around the house. Dig a big hole in the back yard and plant a tree. Fixing her car, for example, seemed to turn a light bulb on in my wife’s head that reminded me that I’m a man and not one of her girlfriends.

So that’s my list. Hope it helps some of the guys out there. Your mileage may vary, and my marriage may still fail, but I’m in a much better spot in the past year than I have been in a long, long time.*


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

*originally posted by carmen ohio:

While I greatly respect the other posters on this thread, I believe many of them, like you, are missing the big picture here -- namely, what should you do to regain your happiness.

From reading your notes, it is clear that you were absent from class the day they handed out the "how to be happy" instructions. So let me fill you in on The 10 Rules for Happiness:

Rule No. 1: You only get one life; never forget that. Corollary: You don't know how long you will live, you could live another 50 years or you might die tomorrow; never forget that either.

Rule No. 2: Deal with things as they really are, not as you would like them to be. Face up to your problems rather than pretending they don't exist or hoping they will simply go away.

Rule No. 3: You are solely responsible for your own happiness: don't expect or look to others to make you happy.

Rule No. 4: Your decisions and actions will have the greatest impact on your happiness. If you do the right things, your life will be better and vice versa. Corollary: Be honest with yourself about your failings and genuinely seek to improve yourself.

Rule No. 5: There is no guarantee that you will always be happy: some people win life's lottery, most don't and some people get the shaft. Corollary 1: Don't complain about the cards you are dealt or wallow in self-pity. Instead, focus on what you can control and learn not to worry about the rest. Corollary 2: Understand that it sometimes takes time and effort to regain your happiness.

Rule No. 6: Understand what makes you happy and what doesn't. Corollary 1: Since you will change over time, reconsider from time to time what will make you happy now and adjust your decisions and actions accordingly. Corollary 2: When something happens that makes you very unhappy, consider the totality of the situation: sometimes cutting down a few trees is the answer, other times you need to look for a new forest in which to live.

Rule No. 7: Do what makes you happy. Don't do what others (parents, friends, bosses, spouses, even children) want you to do unless it is what makes you happy. This might sound selfish but it's not. Some people are happiest when they are serving others (e.g., firemen, Mother Teresa). 

Rule No. 8: If you are unhappy about something, eliminate it from your life or, if that is not possible, minimize the degree of unhappiness it can cause you. If it's a situation (like a bad job), change it. If it's a thing (like a poorly operating car), get rid of it. If it's a person (like a wayward spouse), stop interacting or least minimize contact with the person. Corollary: When something or someone starts to cause you unhappiness, take action immediately; don't wait around hoping things will get better.

Rule No. 9: You don't apologize to anyone for doing what makes you happy. Corollary: You have no obligation to explain yourself or justify your decisions or actions. If you choose to do so, it should only be because it is to your advantage to do so.

Rule No. 10: Be the best person you can be, as you measure things. For most men, this means being fit and attractive to members of the opposite sex, being financially successfully and being emotionally strong and independent. But if you measure life success differently (e.g., displaying Christian virtues, gaining notoriety, acquiring power), then make these the main focus of you efforts.

If we apply these rules to your situation, it become readily apparent that you are breaking all the rules. For example:

☻ You are focused in the moment rather than thinking about how you want to live the rest of your life (violation of Rule No. 1). 

☻ You are more concerned about what your W may or may not have done rather than dealing with what you know she has done (violation of Rule No. 2).

☻ You seek affirmation from your W of your self-worth and the guidance of strangers as to what you should do, rather than taking responsibility for yourself (violation of Rule Nos. 3, 4 and 9).

☻ You are reluctant to take steps to improve your situation and instead are wallowing in self-pity and shame (violation of Rule Nos. 5, 7, 8 and 10).

☻ You seem not to have thought deeply about what you really want out of life (violation of Rule No. 6). 

☻ You reject the notion that your life may have to radically change in order for you to (eventually) be happy (another violation of Rule No. 6).

Based on the facts as you have recited them, I believe you have ample reason to be unhappy in your current circumstances and sufficient justification for taking action. So let me offer you an alternative approach to your problem that is consistent with the Rules of Happiness:

1. Sit your W down and tell her that you are so unhappy with your marriage that you are prepared to end it. Explain that, given what you know (OM's note, her hiding her phone messages, etc.), you can only conclude that either she is having an affair or that she doesn't care about you (as these are the only two reasons why she would not have taken steps to address your concerns when you first raised them). Say that, in either case, you would rather end your marriage than continue it since you deserve and are confident that you can have better than what you have right now.

2. Tell her that, out of love for her and your children, you are willing to give her one last chance to save her marriage and prove to you that she is a worthy wife. This requires her telling you everything that has happened between her and her boss, showing you all of her e-mails and text messages, giving you access to all of her communications in the future, immediately terminating all contact with her boss, demonstrating by word and deed on a daily basis that she loves and respects you and doing whatever else you require for her to prove her worth.

3. Tell her that it is her choice whether to do these things or not but, if she chooses not to, you plan to hire an attorney and file for divorce.

4. Stay calm and collected and don't argue with her. If she questions or challenges anything you say, calmly reply that she now knows what you expect of her and it is up to her to decide what she wants to do. Repeat your message as many times as necessary until she realizes that you mean what you say.

5. Give her a very short period of time to consider this. For example, tell her that you plan to speak to an attorney the next day so, if she wants to save her marriage, she has but a few hours to accept your offer.

6. If she refuses, immediately speak to an attorney and commence divorce proceedings.

7. If she agrees, continue to monitor her closely to make sure she does not go underground. Don't tolerate her complaining or pouting for more than a couple of days. If you get any indication that she is not serious about following through with her promise, start divorce proceedings.

8. For the foreseeable future, be cordial toward your W but nothing more. Don't initiate conversations, compliment her, argue with her or do anything else that would lead her to believe that she is anything special to you. Act at all times like a man who knows what he wants and knows that he can get what he wants, if not from her, then somewhere else.

9. Begin to take steps to improve yourself (exercise, work, activities). Make this -- along with your kids -- the focus of your life for now.

10. Start to educate yourself on what it takes to be a man in the 21st century. A good place to start is to read "The Married Man Sex Life Primer" by Athol Kay.

If you take these steps, I can't guarantee that you will end up in a happy marriage with your current W but I can promise that, eventually, you will give yourself the greatest chance of finding true happiness. The key point is that you can't control your W but you can control you. Hence, you should be doing the things that will eventually make you happy, whether your W wants to be with you or not.

I'm not saying any of this will be easy; it may be the hardest thing you will ever have to do. But unless you do it, your life will likely only get worse.

Wishing the best for you. *

One way or the other you have to control yourself before you can control the situation.


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

Horizon said:


> Even this morning I'm in bed and the mega arousal is in overdrive and she's fast asleep, in her fav zone above all else, and I'm gently stroking her back - forlornly knowing that the few sighs of pleasure have nothing to do with what I'm thinking about. Candy store closed.
> 
> I hear what everyone is saying but being proactive is beyond me at the moment. We had a great day yesterday and it descended into what I described when, as the night rolled on, I could not handle that it was just another night as far as she was concerned. She made the evening meal, the kids were happy, we a were happy but I could not go to bed with that new "normal".
> 
> ...


I think my point is:

You need a plan. 

It might be that you can't begin to put it into place yet - and that is understandable - but you need one.

Give yourself some time. Know that you will put the plan into place.

No one is worth what you are going through but maybe you need another few months.

No one knows the 'right' answer here. Only you.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Horizon said:


> Even this morning I'm in bed and the mega arousal is in overdrive and she's fast asleep, in her fav zone above all else, and I'm gently stroking her back - forlornly knowing that the few sighs of pleasure have nothing to do with what I'm thinking about. Candy store closed.
> 
> It seems right now that the only option I have is to play her game. *Tough it out to see where she goes with it, if she will be able to lead me to that place where we can become an intimate loving couple.* Nothing I say or do to bring it fwd is going to work.
> 
> ...


Okay you're down very down we see that but because you're in the eye of the storm you can make mistakes big ones . BUT you are here and we can help. We can and will.

*Tough it out to see where she goes with it, if she will be able to lead me to that place where we can become an intimate loving couple.*

If you do become an intimate loving couple_ it will NOT help your predicament _- it will just hide what the main issue is. You'll just be bonding hysterical as the phrase goes trying desperately to find the elusive but reassuring intimacy that great sex gives you but that does not pin her down and make her answerable for her abysmal treatment of you - You should not forget that and should not let her forget that either

I'm in my late 50's and my stbew is 20 years younger. So what, it's still a spouse who has shat upon her husband - the age is irrelevant

You are losing sight of the one thing that would show you she really wants you - true unconditional remorse. SHe is not as far as we know prepared to give you even half of that so you know the score.

Until she is prepared to do that you have nothing to fight back with other than you realizing she has already checked out of it and she point blank refuses to do the heavy lifting required to make any reconciliation half positive and if that is the case you are ultimately better off without her.

This is hard and you have not been here long and I know it's harsh words but you must understand should you get great sex tonight and cuddles after it will not put right what she has done, you'll still be sleeping together on a bed of thorns not roses


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

Headspin said:


> Okay you're down very down we see that but because you're in the eye of the storm you can make mistakes big ones . BUT you are here and we can help. We can and will.
> 
> *Tough it out to see where she goes with it, if she will be able to lead me to that place where we can become an intimate loving couple.*
> 
> ...


It's true. She has expressed remorse but it's shortlived. When things have become heated and I have, to ilustrate a point, become somewhat graphic about what took place and where she gets very upset. Implying that I'm rubbing her face in it. She wants it gone.

So many things are said. When I expressed, with calm, how I wanted an intimate relationship which includes sex her first port of call was defensiveness and then - "How often do you expect this?". Then when the storm calmed a little she said (I love this despite the pain) - "How long is this going to go one, your in your 50's when is this going to stop?" - My always very strong libido folks. She's asking when am I going to slow down:rofl:

I have decided to go with her on this. I'm going to suck it up, avoid humiliation, work on myself and see where it takes me. Not good plan maybe, but a plan.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

Who cares if you're in your 50's? I'm 56 have prostate cancer, but if my wife left me, I would be pulling 40 year olds. It's all about your physique and your ballsy attitude. I have a client who is 71, has a T level of 815, and has a 37 year old wife. His attitude is a very cøcky 30 years old.

What are you doing to raise you SMV?

And I don't mean raise it for your wife. I'm talking about how you're going to put together a whole new harem.


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## carmen ohio (Sep 24, 2012)

Horizon said:


> Even this morning I'm in bed and the mega arousal is in overdrive and she's fast asleep, in her fav zone above all else, and I'm gently stroking her back - forlornly knowing that the few sighs of pleasure have nothing to do with what I'm thinking about. Candy store closed.
> 
> *I hear what everyone is saying but being proactive is beyond me at the moment.* We had a great day yesterday and it descended into what I described when, as the night rolled on, I could not handle that it was just another night as far as she was concerned. She made the evening meal, the kids were happy, we a were happy but I could not go to bed with that new "normal".
> 
> ...


Horizon,

You can do something about your situation by improving your health and fitness, getting a job and doing things for yourself and your own enjoyment.

Or you can continue to wallow in self-pity.

It's your choice. It's your life. Nobody on TAM can do it for you or tell you how to make it happen. Your WW is certainly not going to help you lift yourself up. You either have it within you or you don't.

If you need any motivation, think about your children. Are you the kind of man they can look up to? If not, become that man.

And remember that it will take time to make major improvements in your life. The sooner you start, the sooner you will accomplish it. If you never start, then will only yourself to blame when your life really crashes down around you.

Finally, stop blaming your WW for your miserable life. She may be a heartless b*tch but you're the one who married her, enabled her and chose to become dependent on her. So your present situation is the result of choices you made. Take responsibility for those choices and do something about them.

Sadly, I don't think you have what it takes. Please prove me wrong.


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

Horizon said:


> I have decided to go with her on this. I'm going to suck it up, avoid humiliation, work on myself and see where it takes me. Not good plan maybe, but a plan.


Translation: you're going to continue licking her boots. 

So what if your wife is ten years younger. I'm 54 and my wife is 24. Check out *Headspin* with one 20 years younger. This is oppotunity. 

*Machiavelli* is right about attitude. You need to get up off the floor and stand like a man. No woman, least of all her, respects a doormat. If you change that attitude then you'll have them coming to you. 

Sorry to hear about the prostate cancer *Machiavelli*.


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

carmen ohio said:


> Horizon,
> 
> You can do something about your situation by improving your health and fitness, getting a job and doing things for yourself and your own enjoyment.
> 
> ...


I'm trying CO. Trying to prove it to myself. Thanks.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

Horizon said:


> I'm trying CO. Trying to prove it to myself. Thanks.


So what are you going to do about that physique? How tall and how much do you weigh? What's your program?


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

Machiavelli said:


> So what are you going to do about that physique? How tall and how much do you weigh? What's your program?


So glad you are interested M. I will not be posting pics but I can tell you that I'm 183 cms (6'1") and 120 Ks (what's that in Lbs?)
Should be around 90Ks according to doc.

Seriously, all I can manage is a bit of swimming and walking (I have a lower disc issue from 20 yrs ago and also a bad right ankle) But I get around. As I get me cardio act together I'd like to work on definition with a weights program.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

What's the point of having her when she isn't worth having?

She's not remorseful, not in anyway. 

She doesn't act like she values the marriage, the relationship, or you.

You say your in your 50's? So what. You know all those faithful wives married to cheating losers. Well they are divorcing the scumbags and are looking for a good man. A man like you!

And men aren't looking for a relationship with a cheating wife in her 40s. Oh, they'll bed her, but they won't put any effort into a relationship with her. They'll take one look at her and realize she's not the prize a 30 year old is. Her model year is not current and she's got a ton of problems, so why put up with that when there are newer a better models available out there.

You just haven woken up to that reality yet because you are still caught up in the distortion field she's living in. Just look at all the other guys on here who dump their cheating wives and are now dating women 10 years or more younger and hotter then their exs.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

Horizon, I don't know what you're will to do, but if I was in your shoes, I jettison this chick. How many ways does she have to indicate you're way down on her list of priorities. My advise; quit being her stooge and realize there are others out there with the same plumbing and a lot better attitude.


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

Machiavelli said:


> So what are you going to do about that physique? How tall and how much do you weigh? What's your program?


meant to ask - SMV?


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## carmen ohio (Sep 24, 2012)

Horizon said:


> meant to ask - SMV?


Sexual Market Value -- how attractive you are to members of the opposite sex (assuming you're heterosexual).

How are you doing? Have you started doing anything for yourself? You know how important this is, right?

I was pretty tough on you in my last post but I hope you understand that it was out of concern for you -- trying to light a fire under you to encourage you to start making improvements in your life.


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