# Could someone explain this "fog"



## marksaysay

I believe my wife is now in the "fog" that i've read about. Could someone please explain this to me? I've been hearing much of what every has been saying. "I have love for you, but I'm not in love with you." "I don't think I can love you anymore" All of this kind of stuff. She is currently not fixed in just one emotional affair, but she has actually been seeking the attention and exchanging explicit texts with several men. She says she wants to see whats out there, but I know in my heart that she loves me. She says she wants to see what else is out there and that it is not about sex or about a commitment. She wants to have fun, what our marriage has missed for so long. She says she's done what everyone else wanted her to do, now it's time that she does what she wants to do. She has even talked of divorce. I don't want the divorce. I believe that with time, this can pass. I just want more information on how I should proceed. I want to fight for our marriage. What is this plan A and plan B stuff? What the deal with saying you want to try to reconcile in the midst of divorce process? Help me out...


----------



## michzz

RWB said:


> The "fog" in an affair is more or less an altered sense of reality. Your wife is emotionally confused. Once the excitement of the affair takes hold, she sees the begans to re-write her history with you. Your "bad" side is magnified and your "good" side is deminshed. You become the problem with her confusion. It is a living fantasy.
> 
> Note: If you are hearing from her the "I love you, but I am no longer in love with you" and she has mentioned divorce as rememdy to her unhappiness, she is seeing another man or about to. I have personally been there and have friends in the same situation. The reality is a wife will not leave you cold unless she has given herself over to another man. Furthermore, expect her involvement to be much worse than the "truth" she is willing to tell you.


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:


----------



## notreadytoquit

Welcome to the club! Sorry that you find yourself here. Just read the Coping with Infidelity forum and you will see many versions of that fog.


----------



## marksaysay

The interesting thing is that it's not really one guy which makes it even more confusing as this is far from my wife's character. I'm aware that she has been corresponding with atleast 3 different guys via phone, text, email, facebook and such. It doesn't make it any easier to deal with but she's, in my opinion, lashing out because of what she calls "emotional neglect" for several years. I just want to know that best route to getting back to the love i know is still there. I want my wife and my marriage back.


----------



## michzz

marksaysay said:


> The interesting thing is that it's not really one guy which makes it even more confusing as this is far from my wife's character. I'm aware that she has been corresponding with atleast 3 different guys via phone, text, email, facebook and such. It doesn't make it any easier to deal with but she's, in my opinion, lashing out because of what she calls "emotional neglect" for several years. I just want to know that best route to getting back to the love i know is still there. I want my wife and my marriage back.


Your wife's actions ARE what she is. She may have been hiding her true nature from you for a very long time. Confusing isn't it.


----------



## 827Aug

marksaysay, I'm glad you are hearing from other victims on this thread as well. They are giving you sound advice. Hopefully you are getting a better understanding of the "fog" now.


----------



## Tanelornpete

michzz said:


> Your wife's actions ARE what she is. She may have been hiding her true nature from you for a very long time. Confusing isn't it.


I don't think it's a _confusing_ as it is surprising. _Everyone_ has it within themselves to behave in this fashion - some people are better at controlling it, and many people are in relationships where this sort of behavior simply is irrelevant - there's no point to it. But all of us, given the right circumstances, will find ways to justify our behavior - especially if a choice we make, and the resultant activity (that we want to continue) militates against what we know to be 'the right thing to do'. 

The surprise is not that spouses can behave this way - but that they find a reason to do so. Most people are unaware that the situation is building up to infidelity, until reality suddenly slaps them in the face.


----------



## Affaircare

To my mind, the "fog" is what I call Disloyal Dizzy talk. That's when the disloyal spouse says something out loud, and you think to yourself, _"Umm??  Do you hear what you just said?_"

You have known your disloyal spouse for years. You know what his/her true character is like, but while your disloyal is active in the affair, it LOOK like them and SOUND like them...but it's not them. I personally call this the "Evil Twin" (in a nerdy reference to that Star Trek Classic episode with the goatees). Many loyal spouses make the mistake of thinking, "Oh s/he would never do that to me or hurt the kids like that..." and their spouse's true character might never do that, but whilst in the affair, the disloyal's way of thinking is very different. Not in every single case, but about 99% of the time, the disloyal is thinking primarily of themselves only and if they have to hurt a few people along the way (their spouse or their children) they will do so. This fact ALONE is really hard for many loyal spouses to accept. 


*Here's how Disloyal Dizziness starts*. Most disloyals think of themselves as someone honest and faithful, so why would someone who's honest and faithful commit adultery? They have to come up with a reason to justify doing something that's utterly against their character! To continue, let's think of a drug addict. 

Have you ever seen someone who isn't a drug addict yet have their first few times with drugs--wooooooo it feels good! They act silly or feel numb or whatever the effect is...they like it. But who thinks of themselves as a crack addict, right? I bet most people think, "I would never be a drug addict--I grew up in a nice neighborhood" (or something along that line). Then they have their first couple times with the drug and LOVE the feelings and the effect! So they want to do that again, and they have a job so they buy some. Then it takes more of the drug to get that same effect/feeling so they buy more. Now they aren't doing so good at work--maybe they're in trouble--but they rationalize that away as the boss being out to get them. Their family or parents say something and they justify their crabbiness by saying their family "doesn't understand them." Then the drug addict doesn't have enough money and they NEED the drug, so they steal it out of their mom's purse. Now the addict isn't the kind of person who would steal, but they justify it to themselves don't they? They have to do it again, and this time their mom catches them, and do they admit the drugs are wrong and take personal responsibility? NO!!! No, they blame their parents, blame work, blame EVERYONE but themselves and even when they can see the damage they're doing, they won't admit it. Finally they even run away and end up sleeping people for money so they can buy their drug. Some part of them may know they're living in the gutter, but they do and say things that are not them--not the nice kid who was raised by good parents in a nice neighborhood. 

Does that make sense? Your disloyal is addicted to the affair. Like a drug addict s/he will say or do anything to get more of the zing of the affair--including hurt people and do things that are not them. They magnify your flaws and their unhappiness, sometimes even saying things like "I never have loved you all these years" or "I was never happy" when you know darn well they were! They magnify the Other Person's (OP's) good points and how "happy" they are, and supported by Hollywood Hype think it is a love story and they are "star-crossed lovers who found each other. They complete me. They are my destiny." (CHOKE!) AND when they talk, it is the talk of confusion to deflect responsibility, deny it, blame others, ANYTHING to twist it around so they can continue the affair. 


My favorite tactic with "fog" (aka Disloyal Dizziness) is to agree and then turn it around on them. For example:

Disloyal: "Why should I end the affair? You ignored me for years! You had your chance and you blew it!"

Loyal: "You're right. Why would I love someone who's had an affair and is ignoring me? You are blowing your chance to do the right thing."

-OR-

Disloyal: "Oh so you can have female friends but I can't have male friends?"

Loyal: "You're right. I maintain friendships with people of the opposite sex being sure they all understand that you have 100% of my affection and loyalty. Is that what YOUR friendships mean, or do you give those other men affection and loyalty over your spouse?"


----------



## marksaysay

How long does the fog usually last? This came to a head after her discovery of my continued pornography addiction that I'm now going to therapy for. She then asked me to leave, but the conversations that followed were not only about that but about how I've emotionally neglected her for so long. I admit to having done so but that doesn't excuse the fact that she's decided to pursue other people. When the pornography discovery was made this time, I immediately found a therapist. Since then it's been "I don't think I'm in love with you anymore" or something like that. She didn't really throw up the divorce card until I discovered her web activity, her texting and so forth. I really want to fight for my marriage but I want to do it in a dignified way. How do you drag out a divorce process by saying that you want to try counseling and so forth to give the DS time to come out of the fog while i get myself together?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Initfortheduration

I am a hardliner. I believe that you cannot afford to "wait" and hope she returns. To me, she needs a clear message that her behavior will not be tolerated. What she wants is for you to sit by and wait for her while she goes and has sex with other men. And let me say this, if she engaging in explicit e-mails, texting or phone calls, IT IS ALL ABOUT SEX!

You seriously need to pour over the past posts on here. You will find (like so many other betrayed spouses here), she will say anything she needs to in order to get you to free her up. She will suggest that you move out, or that she will move out. She will suggest divorce or separation. She will say she just needs space right now. She will make agreements with you to not see anyone if you or she moves out. THE MINUTE SHE GETS FREE, SHE WILL START ARRANGING SEX WITH OTHER MEN. 

She has brought up divorce for one reason. She is hoping that you will be so desperate to save your marriage that you will literally allow her to spread her legs for other guys. 

You could prove this theory. Tell her "instead of divorcing, what if I said you could go out and date other guys?" Watch how quickly divorce will be taken off the table. She does not want a divorce, she wants to have sex with other men. She wants you for security and them for sex. Seriously, I would bait her with that offer. Then when she agrees to it. You will know exactly whats on her mind.

*When she agrees to your very generous offer, that's when I would lower the boom. I would immediately cut off all financial support for her. Close off her access to your credit cards and open new bank accounts. I would also file for divorce ( you don't have to sign the papers). Filing will stop her from getting any credit in your name. I would also expose her actions to all friends and family.*

I swear that she is testing the waters to see if you will let her have an open marriage. In closing, the nuclear option I have suggested will clear the fog away. This is not the time to beg and plead for her to stay with you. This is the time for you to respect yourself and your marriage by not allowing your wife to debase it by letting other men inside her. The decision is yours. Read the past posts and see which strategy works. Letting her walk all over you by cuckolding you with other men. OR send her the clear signal that you will sweep every aspect of her security away and kick her to the curb, rather then let her so disrespect you.

There can be respect without love. THERE CAN BE NO LOVE WITHOUT RESPECT!


----------



## michzz

Tanelornpete said:


> I don't think it's a _confusing_ as it is surprising. _Everyone_ has it within themselves to behave in this fashion - some people are better at controlling it, and many people are in relationships where this sort of behavior simply is irrelevant - there's no point to it. But all of us, given the right circumstances, will find ways to justify our behavior - especially if a choice we make, and the resultant activity (that we want to continue) militates against what we know to be 'the right thing to do'.
> 
> The surprise is not that spouses can behave this way - but that they find a reason to do so. Most people are unaware that the situation is building up to infidelity, until reality suddenly slaps them in the face.


To me, it is both confusing and surprising. The context is one person finding this out about their spouse, not of someone who makes it their business to know of such things. Think back to the time when you were not cognizant of such things.

It is an individual reaction of confusion, surprise, shock, and disillusionment.


----------



## josh1081

The part that gets to me the most is when you said she told you it wasn't about sex but just having fun and seeing what's out there. That's a HUGE red flag to me. In my experience that means she's already had meaningless sexual contact with someone and wants more, or is currently in the process.
Time to decide what it is that you really want, buckle down, and go for it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## AFEH

marksaysay said:


> I believe my wife is now in the "fog" that i've read about. Could someone please explain this to me? I've been hearing much of what every has been saying. "I have love for you, but I'm not in love with you." "I don't think I can love you anymore" All of this kind of stuff. She is currently not fixed in just one emotional affair, but she has actually been seeking the attention and exchanging explicit texts with several men. She says she wants to see whats out there, but I know in my heart that she loves me. She says she wants to see what else is out there and that it is not about sex or about a commitment. She wants to have fun, what our marriage has missed for so long. She says she's done what everyone else wanted her to do, now it's time that she does what she wants to do. She has even talked of divorce. I don't want the divorce. I believe that with time, this can pass. I just want more information on how I should proceed. I want to fight for our marriage. What is this plan A and plan B stuff? What the deal with saying you want to try to reconcile in the midst of divorce process? Help me out...


If my wife told me that stuff my reaction would be tell her if that’s what she truly wants out of her life then she must go out and get it. That she doesn’t do it on either my time or my money. She would get absolutely zero support from me and she would know that from the outset. I would tell her that I accept absolutely no responsibility for the path she has chosen. That she is totally responsible for her life and if she falls it’s exceedingly doubtful that I’d be there to pick her up. She would be the one to move out of the home.

Then I would build new boundaries to protect myself from her behaviour. I would also tell her that if she wants to go to marriage counselling before she sets off on the new journey of hers I’d be glad to do that with her. That it would be very doubtful if she fails in anyway at all on her chosen path that I would take her back.

It gets them out of the “fog” pretty darn quickly and they know exactly where they stand.

Bob


----------



## marksaysay

I just left my house where I told the DS that I could not accept her terms of being able to hang out with other guys and use me as a security blanket. I told her that I wanted her to stop what she was doing. Her reply was that she didn't want to and that she was just going to plan on moving forward without me. I then talked with a respected elderly women, and asked her if she could possibly talk with her about commitment and marriages hoping that this might wake her up out of the fog. Do I think I will do any good? No. She says her willingness to stay committed to this relationship is gone. She says she plans on seeing a lawyer and proceeding with the divorce proceedings. While I know that I'm going to have some difficult days ahead, it felt good to look her in the eyes and tell her that. While I still have some hope that things can be worked out, that hope is diminishing fast and I'm actually in a better place to accept that. I hope that as I progress through the 7 steps, things might turn around. If not, that's ok.


----------



## Initfortheduration

I'm proud of you. You are respecting yourself. Let her file. But be sure to separate finances like I said. Or she could clean you out by opening another account and transferring your money there. You are entitled to a wife who will love you and won't cheat. Instead of a skank who wants to play the field. Good luck.


----------



## 827Aug

I'm glad you took the blinders off and stood up for yourself. At least you know where you stand now. And you still may have a chance with her. As I've said before, I tried the nice approach with my husband. It didn't work at all. Make sure you safeguard your assets and credit now. A wayward spouse in the "fog" can wreak havoc on fiances.


----------



## toolate

I can attest. I have been in the fog and now am out. I hope this helps you, but honestly I wish it was your wife reading this instead of you (not that it would get through to her at this point). 

The fog can build quickly or slowly, for one reason or host of reasons. The timing at which the cheating actually happens is different for everyone who does it, bc the point at which resntment has built enough (real or rationalized) is dependent on each persons limit or personal threshold. 

Mine was 2 years. During that 2 years I felt I was spinning my wheels trying to work things out with my husband (so we both were getting needs met, and not just him) and he continued to push further and further away. After we married, he said to no to any sexual advance and disallowed me to contact him during the day. At that point I had no idea why he married me when all he was doing was pushing me away and what I felt was controlling me. I married him bc he promised he would have sex with me (bc at the time that was my focus... I wanted to make up for 12 years of a sexless life in my last marriage (ex hu had ED)...no excuse though). All I saw were more and more walls going up. I began having panic attacks, then I went through a brief depression and then I picked myself up and "tried" one more time. When that failed, I went elsewhere, outside the marriage. It was awesome the first few times to have someone not say no to me, but then I realized of course its awesome... we dont live with each other on a day to day basis with personality pluses and minuses etc... Of course it was a fantasy, and I knew that inside going into it, but I was so hurt by failure in the marriage it was the one thing I hadnt tried. It made my marriage better so that was a positive reinforcement that I needed to continue it. I got to a point where I couldnt continue even if marriage was better bc I felt wrong. So, I felt that nothing I could do would work and my desire for sex at all went away. That was my conscience kicking me in the butt and feeling like a failure, but it was hidden by my resentment towards my husband.

She is probably feeling like she is taking control of her life and doing what she wants or missed out on, or wants again. I actually told myself that I was giving myself that which my husband refused to give me... how is that for fantasy! I even used the bible to rationalize my ways... the bible says for men to love their wives and women to respect their husbands... and my husband doesnt love me, so I dont respect him. He is not living up to his vows, so why do I... he gets away with it, so will I... I was seeking revenge and not even aware of it. Unbelievable and Im so ashamed of that.

I think if you can understand she may need to learn her own lesson it may be less saddening. People here use the drug addict anaolgy, which I think is bc its similar. Like a drug addict, she may have to hit bottom with it on her own before it ends. Sadly, many cheaters leave their spouses for the fantasy with the other person... thinking it will better. A lie is not better and will backfire in one way or another.

Like a spouse of an alcoholic, you may have to watch her spiral down and pray that she gets out of it. Steps to take, this is a bit harder/grey area... do not fund her phone if she is using it to sext/txt other men even a little bit. You have to say to her that you love her, and want the marriage to work but you will not participate in any of the extra marital ways... meaning you will not enable the cheating. As long as she is cheating she will need to find another place to live and provide it with her own money, she will need to get her own phone or computer and fund it with her own money. If she is having a physical affair she will need to provide her own car or metro money and fund that and gas with her own money. If she is going to continue to do those txts etc, then not on your time and your tab. Know your boundary and love her within that boundary.

I hope this helps.


----------



## toolate

marksaysay said:


> How long does the fog usually last? This came to a head after her discovery of my continued pornography addiction that I'm now going to therapy for. She then asked me to leave, but the conversations that followed were not only about that but about how I've emotionally neglected her for so long. I admit to having done so but that doesn't excuse the fact that she's decided to pursue other people. When the pornography discovery was made this time, I immediately found a therapist. Since then it's been "I don't think I'm in love with you anymore" or something like that. She didn't really throw up the divorce card until I discovered her web activity, her texting and so forth. I really want to fight for my marriage but I want to do it in a dignified way. How do you drag out a divorce process by saying that you want to try counseling and so forth to give the DS time to come out of the fog while i get myself together?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My other post addressed your first post... I just read this one. Ok, you were unfaithful first, now she is getting revenge. I dont know how much help you need for the porn addiction bc I dont know your entire story about it. What I do know is therapy isnt going to ehlp your wife with her resentment and equally childish behavior. You have to make ammends for your actions with the porn and admit to her that you strayed on the marriage and it wasnt right, but neither is her straying... and then proceed with the steps in my other post.

She needs to decide if and when she will let herself let go of the resentment for your porn activity. You need to let her go if she decides she cant, that is her choice. You cant convince her of anything as to her, you have 0 influence bc of what you did. If you want her back you need to prove to her that you want her, and only her, but without the activities she is doing now. Court her like you were dating but within the boundaries I described above. She will need to learn again that you do love her and cherish her, then she will give you her heart... and only you.

Oh, the fog can last as long as it lasts... its different for everyone. Mine lasted 2 1/2 years (2 yrs building and 6 months affair and after affair).


----------



## marksaysay

I think she's gonna have someone over tonight. When I picked up daughter for school, she said don't come over for anything tonight cuz I can't stand to see you. She calls 10 minutes later asking what is used in heating garage, kerosene or gas. Only reason to heat garage now is to hang out there and play pool. She never hangs out in there. Whatever it is, she doesn't want to do it in the house. I'm gonna catch her and when I do, she's leaving my house and I'll keep our daughter.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Initfortheduration

Good for you. Don't change your schedule. Does she work or is she a SAHM? If I were you I would set up a voice activated recorder in your garage. You need to start documenting everything.


----------



## Amplexor

marksaysay said:


> I think she's gonna have someone over tonight. When I picked up daughter for school, she said don't come over for anything tonight cuz I can't stand to see you. She calls 10 minutes later asking what is used in heating garage, kerosene or gas. Only reason to heat garage now is to hang out there and play pool. She never hangs out in there. Whatever it is, she doesn't want to do it in the house. I'm gonna catch her and when I do, she's leaving my house and I'll keep our daughter.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is a potential powder keg for all involved. If you intend to "catch her in the act" then take along a trusted friend to:

1. Make sure things stay calm and that no violence breaks out.

2. To witness and document the event for your own protection.


----------



## toolate

marksaysay said:


> I think she's gonna have someone over tonight. When I picked up daughter for school, she said don't come over for anything tonight cuz I can't stand to see you. She calls 10 minutes later asking what is used in heating garage, kerosene or gas. Only reason to heat garage now is to hang out there and play pool. She never hangs out in there. Whatever it is, she doesn't want to do it in the house. I'm gonna catch her and when I do, she's leaving my house and I'll keep our daughter.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ok, confused here. Whose garage? Is this meaning she is living at your marital home while all this is going on and you arent there? Boy, if that is the case, you made you grave... now lay in it. No wonder she feels like she can do anything, you have given her the go ahead.

Sorry to be so blunt, but how can you expect to not enable her if you are giving her everything including your butt hole wrapped up in a ribbon with a sign... please F me, Ill take it?


----------



## marksaysay

Yeah, I understand that i've done some wrong in addressing this situation, but now I'm going to rectify them. She threatened to take my daughter and leave but now that is not an option. I'm going back home tonight and reclaiming what is mine. And that's that. She can leave but she's not taking my daughter.


----------



## jessi

good for you, don't let her call the shots, this is what she wants, you have every right to keep your daughter and stay in your home, if she isn't happy, make her go.......


----------



## 827Aug

See, I told you in the other thread not to move out in the first place! Hope all goes well tonight. We are all pulling for you!


----------



## marksaysay

i'd actually already moved out. She'd threatened to take my daughter out of her comfort zone if i didn't leave. I'm not having that. I have a 3rd degree blackbelt in judo as my backup just in case. But i'm going back home tonight one way or the other.


----------



## the guy

I hope you bring someone with you, this would be a good time to have a witness. She will set you up and then your screwed. This could be a trap for a restraining order so protect your self (legaly)
At the very least tape record the interaction. it may make a great difference in maintaining your residence.

Be careful, to not talk to her, just go to your room, this could be dangerous. But you know what ,I would do the exact same thing, just stay calm, and do not be alone with her.


----------



## marksaysay

the guy said:


> I hope you bring someone with you, this would be a good time to have a witness. She will set you up and then your screwed. This could be a trap for a restraining order so protect your self (legaly)
> At the very least tape record the interaction. it may make a great difference in maintaining your residence.
> 
> Be careful, to not talk to her, just go to your room, this could be dangerous. But you know what ,I would do the exact same thing, just stay calm, and do not be alone with her.


Plan didn't go so well. She refused to let me in and even called police. They told me that they couldn't make me leave but it was in everyone's best interest that I did. She's now decided that she's gonna leave anyhow so oh well. I do get the house back tomorrow but I've lost my wife for good. I'm actually ok with it. I just don't want there to be any adverse affects to my relationship with my daughter. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## the guy

Was she alone?


----------



## the guy

I just don't like the thought of a guys daughter in the house with a stranger. If the Om is immoral enough to be with a married women, who knows.


----------



## the guy

marksaysay said:


> I think she's gonna have someone over tonight. When I picked up daughter for school, she said don't come over for anything tonight cuz I can't stand to see you. She calls 10 minutes later asking what is used in heating garage, kerosene or gas. Only reason to heat garage now is to hang out there and play pool. She never hangs out in there. Whatever it is, she doesn't want to do it in the house. I'm gonna catch her and when I do, she's leaving my house and I'll keep our daughter.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


call the police back and get your daughter out of the house or have them make OM leave your daughters home.


----------



## marksaysay

the guy said:


> call the police back and get your daughter out of the house or have them make OM leave your daughters home.


Don't think anyone was there, but not for sure. She says she's not that kind of person. She actually called a minute ago stating she was filling out papers for divorce and that I could come back to the house today cuz she couldn't stay knowing I wanted to be there. She offered 50% of mortgage and her half of phone bills and car insurance. Said if I can't handle that then sell the house. She said some pretty ugly things too but I knew she was capable of that so I wasn't surprised. Is this how it usually goes? Obviously I don't want the divorce but it seems inevitable, I still have hope.

I also know that she's still on those dating websites and while we were talking, she got a call she wouldn't answer acting like the call was puzzling.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## toolate

Wow, I wish I had seen your other thread. It seems over. I had no idea you had already moved out. Last night was a set up and you walked into it (Im guessing alone). Fortunately, police hate domestic disputes unless there is violence or assault (something they can arrest someone for). Lucky for you they didnt do the restraining order.

I see you typing that you still have hope, from a limited outside perspective I dont see any. She has moved on. I wish I could tell you differently. I wish she had the same experience I had and wanted to go back to the marriage, but it just doesnt look that way.

Im shocked as a mother, if she would have her daughter around another man at this point. That is distressing. Its her adult thing, not something to put on a youth.

Only you can decide on the offer she gave you, which sounds pretty darn good. But, you also have to consider the ramifications for giving her an easy divorce... it enables her to get off the hook easy. IF you dont have anything in your years with her or privately that she could slam you with in court, you may want that option (and I mean police papers of any kind, work problems, non involvement with kids to play golf or work more hours). BUT, if you go the court route, you have to have hard evidence of adultery, and depending on your state it can be very difficult to substantiate. You would have to hire a PI to gather evidence, bc even activity after a separation can be considered by the court as demostrating a pattern to the downfall of the marriage. Other than that, take the offer and let her figure herself out.

I wish we all had manuals that could show us if we do x then y will be what is interpreted by others. Some people know this instinctively, others learn the hard way.

What a mess, but I dont judge bc my marriage is not so great either.


----------



## marksaysay

Yeah, she's checked out. While I said I have hope, I dont think there's much either. We will move on. I'll get over it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 827Aug

Sorry things didn't go so well last night. Don't give up all hope yet. I'm curious....have you discussed this with your minister? Continue to pray for God's guidance here. And ask others to pray.


----------



## marksaysay

827Aug said:


> Sorry things didn't go so well last night. Don't give up all hope yet. I'm curious....have you discussed this with your minister? Continue to pray for God's guidance here. And ask others to pray.


Yes, he's fully aware of everything. I'm still praying and I'm willing to accept any result cuz I'll know it's God's will.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## marksaysay

Yesterday, my wife officially submitted our divorce papers and it is, at this point, still very difficult for me to accept. While my pornography addiction (I'm currently in therapy to get over it) was a part of the problem, she states that the primary reason was that she was tired of all the years of emotional neglect. I hadn't met her emotional needs, she says, and she was tired of being unhappy in her relationship. At 33, and after 10 years of marriage to someone who didn't and felt couldn't make her happy, she said she was done. While in recent months, I'd started reading relationship books to try to rectify my issues, I had made some changes with my behavior but she said it was too little too late. We have come up with some pretty reasonable terms as it relates to the divorce, but obviously I'm not happy about this. I love her so much. We have a beautiful daughter together. I planned on spending my entire life with her. I relocated from my home state of Texas to be with her (I met her here while playing baseball and decided to stay 900+ miles away from home). I have no family here other than hers so now i find myself completely alone. It doesn't feel good.

Her biggest complaint was my selfishness. I always wanted to do what I wanted to do, never taking her needs into consideration. I never wanted to do things with her. I never showed her much affection. I never wanted to just sit and talk to her. While I did do these things sometimes, it wasn't enough to take away the displeasure she felt. While I believe that some of her expectations were difficult to achieve, I believe that things would be so different now if I'd learned this lesson a few years ago. At one time, we were madly in love. At one time, she was pleased to be with me. At one time, she couldn't wait to see me at the end of a long day. Not anymore. She says I stopped having fun and, therefore, allowed our relationship to grow stale. As we part our separate ways, I hold on to hope that after making some personal changes, i may become once again attractive to her and we may be able to rekindle the lost flame, but I'm not sure it's possible with all the hurt she has built up. If I could just do it all over again. 

I do understand the environment in which i grew up contributed to my inability to express love, it is ultimately all my fault for not recognizing it earlier. I wish I'd know about books like "His Needs Her Need" or "The Love Dare" before now. I wish I'd sought out more help for my issues in order to prevent this. As it stands now, I have lost the woman I am still so deeply in love with. I will work on my issues and stay optimistic that my changes might help me get her back, but what I believe is that I'm correcting myself in order to not have this happen again in my next relationship. Such a hard way to learn a lesson. They say as long as one spouse still has love, there is always a chance. We have a daughter together so we will still have a lot of contact. She's even stated that I could still attend her families functions and gatherings, since they are really all the family I have here. I still have a chance, albeit a small one, but there's nothing wrong with hope. 

I'm not gonna wait around for her to have a change of heart, but I'm sure that I will always have love for her. I'm sure there are gonna be countless days ahead when I think of her greatly. I'm sure it'll be hard to date once the storm has subsided. I'm sure it'll be difficult to see her with someone else knowing had I done something different, that would still be me. But I'll have to deal with it.

I think in some ways, I have a blessing in disguise, I think. We both agreed to remain at the church we'd been attending. She grew up there and I became quite involved in the ministries there. Also, we bowl together in a league and neither one of us wanted to give that up. There are two opportunities each week for her to see that I am serious about making changes and to show them to her. It is possible that once her resentment dies or goes away, if it ever will, she may again begin to see what it was that caused her to fall in love with me. If not? I'll deal with it. I will continue to pray that God will show me his will as it relates to our relationship. I do know one thing. If it is God's will, we'll get back together. If it's not, then we won't.


----------



## marksaysay

no one have anything to say about my previous post?


----------



## Tanelornpete

Have you seen 'Fireproof' yet?


----------



## marksaysay

Tanelornpete said:


> Have you seen 'Fireproof' yet?


Yes. Was actually on day 14 when this all began a couple weeks ago. Found out that my wife bought books also but never opened it. I'm actually starting to believe it's over.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tanelornpete

My advice is to stop trying to push anything. _Slow down._ Step back and work on _you_. Quit worrying about what she thinks or feels. As long as you give her reasons, she will continue to resent. You can't change her, you can't talk her into anything, and you cannot trick her into believing you. That must come _over time._ Stop trying to get everything done _now_. It just plain won't happen.

A divorce is never _instant_ and it can be delayed a very long time. In the meantime, study what it means to be a Christian man, and concentrate on that. That is far more important, and the end result is far more beneficial, than merely going through motions. 

Because you worked very hard to create the situation in which you find yourself (the porn, etc., was _deliberate_ and no accident) you can't expect things to 'magically' fix themselves. Sometimes the consequences of what we have done simply are too certain to avoid. But the LESSONS that can be learned are invaluable. Pay attention to what is happening RIGHT NOW, in your life. The past is gone, the future doesn't exist. What matters is where you are, what you are, _right now_, because what you are doing _now_ will generate consequences that you'll experience _later_. 

So again: stop trying to 'will' her into behaving. Tend your own garden, mend you own fences, and get the log out of your own eye. She went through a lot with you, and it apparently seemed to have no favorable resolution (in her eyes) - now she is choosing a very immoral solution. What she is doing is quite wrong, and must be addressed, and there is a proper way to do it. But until she sees something entirely different in you, _you_ won't be able to do much about it. She's 'heard it all before' and even told you what would happen. 

Having said all that, I also add this: her behavior should NOT be acceptable in any self respecting church. You say you made a habit of viewing porn, and you also say that you have stopped this. Taking what you say as true, I have to ask, do people in your church know this about you? I don't mean as fuel for gossip - I mean, as a means of support? Do you have people who know what happened, and are there to help you get through it? 

Here's the important point: [note I am deliberately making this as 'generalized' as I can.] If you are involved in a church, most of its focus should be on people helping each other get past faults, destructive behaviors, etc., and grow to be more honorable and trustworthy. But part of that must of necessity also include consequences for REFUSING to change immoral behavior. Any institution in society operates that way. That is, if you allowed people in your church to know you had a problem with porn, and were working to end this - and yet kept on with the behavior, at some point the church would, if it was doing its job correctly, take steps to make things more difficult for you to continue with your behavior. Of course, you could always choose to leave the church - it isn't a prison. The hope of a good church is that the steps it takes are done for the right reasons, and done so wisely. 

So, what is your wife's church doing about her infidelity? Is it going to be of any support to you at all, or is it simply going to sit back and pretend the boat isn't sinking?


----------



## NickCampbell

I think it's really important you take responsibility for what happened too - *years* of emotional neglect, an addiction to something that she considers offensive, etc - and then to paint her as the bad guy? Come on...that's like turning the heat up on a pot of water and then saying "I had no idea it would start boiling!" 

I get the impression a lot of this "fog" is from men who neglected their marriage, took their spouse for granted, had little consideration for their needs, and then had the gall to wake up one day and wonder *why* she is distant "all of the sudden?" And then: *surly* the problem is with her, "she's just been a cheater all along!" Ugh, give me a break! 

I'm sorry for your problem, and I'm very glad your latest posts show that you're taking responsibility as well. My advice - cool down with the hot headed-ness (going to the house in an attempt to catch her with another guy?), realize it stems *from a hurt ego,* ("she's not going to do that to me!") and spend lots of time correcting the reason you found yourself in this problem.


----------



## marksaysay

I am trying to move past everything. I started the 180 degree divorce buster from marriage builder yesterday as we bowl together and all. I don't really feel she liked how I wasn't 'up her butt'. I wasn't mean and didn't total ignore her, but I didn't go out of my way to engage her. It felt good until I decided to go home. I'm convinced she stopped to hang out with some guy because her car was at another bar, a place she never really goes. It was on my way home, so I didn't really have to look hard. I think she's really done.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## marksaysay

I am trying to move past everything. I started the 180 degree divorce buster from marriage builder yesterday as we bowl together and all. I don't really feel she liked how I wasn't 'up her butt'. I wasn't mean and didn't total ignore her, but I didn't go out of my way to engage her. It felt good until I decided to go home. I'm convinced she stopped to hang out with some guy because her car was at another bar, a place she never really goes. It was literally on my way home, so I didn't really have to look hard. I think she's really done.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## the guy

Stay the course Mark, you are one of the strongest men I've seen posting.
I to believe the last thing right now is to engage her about her immoral behavior. She knows the rules, and its all on her know.
Go work out and treat your self to something you could never find the time for.


----------



## Affaircare

Marksaysay~

I have to say, that as I read through your posts it reminds me of a ship casting about, tossing to and fro, but having no real direction or destination in mind. You try *this* once or twice--oops that wasn't the magic button--you try *that* once or twice--oops she still says she doesn't love me--you try another thing--oops that didn't make her come back. Furthermore, you keep acting as if what she's doing is reasonable, in line with her character and the kind of woman she is, and like what she decides now makes sense. Remember that fog you asked about? When she says she still doesn't love you, that's about 90% fog talk with kernels of some truth in it. And no I don't mean it's a "lie"--it's just not based on reality. She feels infatuation for the OM; she feels the "affair zing" from the OM; she does not feel that from you. But that "zing" is not LOVE, because love is treating someone lovingly--and starting a relationship in falsehood and deceit, breaking up two homes, and encouraging any other person to break their vows is NOT (I repeat... *NOT!*.. love). 

For the sake of "The Guy's" ADD I'll keep this short. You are not giving any of this time to work. I understand that part of you wants her to stop *today*, turn around *today*, give you another chance *today*...but that is not how affairs usually play out. In addition, you have the added severe issue of porn addiction, which you keep saying "I'm going to counseling for that!" and yet I hear little or nothing about how you're addressing THAT issue! It's all about her, and what she's doing, and her affair. You are here--she is not, so there is not one thing we can do to stop her or "make" her end her affair. But YOU are here! We can work with you and talk to you about the changes you can make yourself a better man and a more attractive candidate to return to. 

So to keep this short, stop changing in mid-stream. Pick a plan and stick with is for the LONG HAUL. There just is no instant fix or fast cure. Unless she were to have an epiphany right now, you are probably looking at several months at least (like, 6-9 months), and frankly not everyone can hold out that long. So pick a plan with the intention of staying with that plan for a Long, LONG time. Really read about that particular plan in detail. Get to know the ins and outs, and the hows and whys of that plan so you understand where you are and what you have to do. Then get your focus off of her and onto you. Focus on your recovery from porn addiction. That is a GIGANTIC issue in this marriage and would be in any other relationship/marriage you choose to get into--so let's dwell on that. 

What did you do today to keep your eyes pure?


----------



## marksaysay

the guy said:


> Stay the course Mark, you are one of the strongest men I've seen posting.
> I to believe the last thing right now is to engage her about her immoral behavior. She knows the rules, and its all on her know.
> Go work out and treat your self to something you could never find the time for.


Strong, I am. Rational. I may not be. We had a brief discussion this evening and she seemed pretty content with her decision to divorce stating that it's too late for me to want to change for her. She said she I had 10 years to do that and that she wasn't gonna spend another day wondering if I'd change. I do believe this is it. Will I stop loving her? No. Am I going to dust myself off and try again? Absolutely. She, as most women go, will not have problem finding someone else, especially her because she's beautiful. She already has connected with atleast one individual because I've seen the length of their cell phone conversations and 'been thinking of you' texts. I, on the other hand, don't think I'm ready to thrust myself back on the dating scene just yet. I will at some point, just not right now. I will get through this...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## marksaysay

Affaircare, it seems you have hit the nail on the head. I have been trying a little of everything, hoping to turn things around quickly. I have been so determined to fix things that all I believe I've done is made things worse. And based on all of the online activity, texting and so forth, I know this isn't reasonable behavior, nor is it anything that fits her character. I'm not sure if the other individual(s) are attached, but I do know that she is, atleast until the divorce reaches it's conclusion. I guess my objective has been to do everything in MY power to try to stop the process. I have been looking for a quick fix while all the while knowing that there really isn't one. I'm not sure of the divorce timetable but that will change next week as I seek council to get a better understanding. I just wanted it to stop. I guess if it is in the cards for us to be together, there is always remarriage.

As to the porn addiction, I have actually made great progress since I have revealed it to several people such as family members, church members, and in-laws over the past couple of weeks and it seems a gigantic weight has been lifted off of my shoulders because I don't have to hide it anymore. Also, because I've been spending so much time on this site, I haven't indulged in that activity for quite a while, even while being home alone, so I know I'm making progress. 

You say prepare myself for the long haul, even though most people aren't willing to hold out that long. Were you referring to the effort of salvaging the relationship? I don't think it would be a good idea that I date for the next 6-9 months, anyway, so the only other thing would be to stay on course with the plan I choose. But you say I shouldn't heed her words? She seems so at peace with her decision. 

From the eyes of you relationship gurus, which plan would you say would work best for me? I don't really know if the plan A and B will work, but that's just my opinion, since we see each other each week at bowling and church. I will be moving out, since she is financially more capable of maintaining the house throughout this process. We have a 7 year old daughter. Give me your best advice...

Update (8:30am): After discovering some more of her activity and texts to these guys, including one to her friend stating that she needed to find a f*** buddy, I'm so sure that she is completely consumed by this "fog". She even had the nerve to come and ask that I help her with getting another care since her current one is falling apart.


----------



## marksaysay

Update: I know it's probably pretty much over now and I know you guys are probably gonna beat me up for this, but I called my wife after daughter was put to bed and the second night in a row wife did not call prior to this event, asking if something was wrong. She had just chewed me out because she said this same thing about me and that it made her mad that I did it. I said something wasn't right about her not calling her daughter. I told her despite the fact that we are in a divorce process, that she was still my wife and that she could do whatever she wanted after everything was finalized. Then I probably shouldn't have but I told her about the recent discovery that she was no longer strictly talking to men on this dating website, but also texting with them now. I wasn't actually snooping but concerned knowing that we had limited # of texts on our plan and I wanted to know where we stood, since at this time we are still married. She'd been doing and excessive amount so I wanted to know. The number came up on our phone bill 000000XXXX. She said it was her friends on facebook, but that's a different number because I did the whole facebook phone messages before she did. Nothing crazy. Just notifications of updates and messages, so I knew what that number looked like. She denied, denied, denied that this activity was from this website and got really pissed. I know it's from this website. They range in time from early afternoon to 4 am and there were 252 either sent or received from or to this number from 10/18 to 10/25. That's not facebook. I doubt, after my discovery, she would ever be willing to reconcile now. Oh well.


----------



## turnera

Your marriage can withstand your WS's anger; it cannot withstand another man. Or two or three.

For now, document EVERYTHING. File for custody. Let her sow her oats. Let her hit rock bottom. And let her come crawling back when she realizes what she did. And if she doesn't? 

Then YOU and your daughter are better off without her.


----------



## marksaysay

Yeah, I know. I am now content with accepting whatever may come. I'm gonna try the Divorce Busting ideas as soon as I complete the book in the next day or so, but I'm prepared for whatever comes.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## marksaysay

Today, I began the 180 method. I actually got an opportunity to see the affects fairly quickly. I made some plans to hang out with some coworkers tonight. Then my wife calls and says that since our daughter is sick and since she would be hanging out with me tomorrow because of no school, she rather she stay with me this evening. When I told her that we would have to work something out because today was not my day to have her, and because I had already made plans, she didn't seem to like it very much. I hope this works. I'm gonna stay the course. I also noticed from the computer's history that she'd looked up quotes about forgiveness to post on facebook. Now her lack of forgiveness is one of the reasons we find ourselves in this situation. I'm not saying that nothing I did didn't warrant some anger, but as a Christian, I believe what the bible says about love being blind. She may have been also mad because I think she found out that I'd saved an excel file of all her cell phone activity. Who knows, but I will stay the course.


----------



## turnera

Sounds good!


----------



## marksaysay

A few minutes after she left to go to her friend's house (the place she's been staying), she calls asking me to bring something to her. She asks what time i was going out. When I told her, she made a noise like she was surprised and disapproving at the same time. when I dropped off that she was asking for, i'd noticed that she'd changed to go out somewhere as well. I didn't even ask where or with who.


----------



## turnera

Maybe you peaked her interest, and she wanted to find out more, thus the excuse to bring her something.


----------



## OhGeesh

Don't get your hopes up!! Focus on you, your future, and your daughter. She seems very very distant and as if her mind is made up.


----------



## 827Aug

Sounds like you are headed in the right direction--either way it goes. Have you put down the cigarettes yet?! A lot of people will take notice of that! We're going to encourage you there too!


----------



## marksaysay

OhGeesh said:


> Don't get your hopes up!! Focus on you, your future, and your daughter. She seems very very distant and as if her mind is made up.


Yeah, she's distant but she always has something to say. This morning, she brought over daughter on her way to work. On her way out, she says "I hope you feel good about kicking me and your daughter out." obviously, I replied that I hadn't. She said i did because I wouldn't stay away. It's never her decision or choice. It's always my fault.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

I would have laughed at that.


----------



## marksaysay

turnera said:


> I would have laughed at that.


She calls again later asking to help her get another car b/c hers is acting up. When I was hesitant she explodes talking about me being so selfish. She changed her mind about me staying at our house til I find apartment by the end of the week to having to find it today. She started talking about me not helping with anything as far as family expenses when everytime I've offered she said don't worry about anything. Either she's just extremely bitter towards me or the fact that I went out last night got under her skin. It's probably a little of both.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Yep. You're supposed to keep feeding her ego by begging her to keep you.


----------



## Blanca

marksaysay said:


> Now her lack of forgiveness is one of the reasons we find ourselves in this situation. I'm not saying that nothing I did didn't warrant some anger, but as a Christian, I believe what the bible says about love being blind.


Then as a Christian I think you'll recall that passage in the bible that says a man that puts away his wife for the sake of fornicating causes her to commit adultery. So i guess biblically speaking, you need to apologize once for fornicating and then again for causing her to commit adultery. Fools are blind. Love is honest. Your wife has been a fool for years but i think she's finally starting to be honest.


----------



## marksaysay

Blanca said:


> Then as a Christian I think you'll recall that passage in the bible that says a man that puts away his wife for the sake of fornicating causes her to commit adultery. So i guess biblically speaking, you need to apologize once for fornicating and then again for causing her to commit adultery. Fools are blind. Love is honest. Your wife has been a fool for years but i think she's finally starting to be honest.


I admit to the porn issue but it was a fantasy world I lived in that didn't involved any contact with another individual. Last I checked, fornication involves voluntary intercouse between two who are not married to one another. I can and have apologized for the porn viewing, but I can't apologize for her making her choice to go outside the marriage. Are the issues we are dealing with fixable? Yes. Have I overlooked her many flaws? Yes. I have a hard time naming many of her issues, not because there are none, but because I love her and they are irrelevant.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tanelornpete

> I admit to the porn issue but it was a fantasy world I lived in that didn't involved any contact with another individual. Last I checked, fornication involves voluntary intercouse between two who are not married to one another. I can and have apologized for the porn viewing, but I can't apologize for her making her choice to go outside the marriage. Are the issues we are dealing with fixable? Yes. Have I overlooked her many flaws? Yes. I have a hard time naming many of her issues, not because there are none, but because I love her and they are irrelevant.


Couple of things to point out: the passage to which the above poster referred actually says "...But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery..." - that is, with the exception of sex outside the marriage, a divorce causes the wife to become an 'adulteress.' (Matt 5:31-32). Paul explains that passage in more depth in 1 Corinthians 7. 

But it does point to a much deeper thread of thought that runs with Jesus' and Paul's advice on marriage: the husband is indeed held responsible for the spiritual life of his family. He is by nature the leader of the family, and his choices tend to influence his family's decisions. Keep that in mind when you do approach the porn 'addiction' you talk about. 

A more relevant passage, one that addresses your objection, is one that you should be paying more attention to: 

"...But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart..." 

The idea of a 'fantasy world which didn't involve contact with another individual' is irrelevant in your case: you claim to be a Christian. This idea has NOTHING to do with _physical_ touch - what is involved is the breaking of your covenant (the contract you made with your wife). A great verse that refers to the importance of that contract is "...Whatever your lips utter you must be sure to do, because you made your vow freely to the LORD your God with your own mouth..." (Deuteronomy 23:23). The error of adultery is the idea of turning to another person for something that is designed to be between you and your spouse. 

Note: that is why I always say that it is virtually irrelevant whether an affair is emotional or physical. A PA simply involves possible health issues. But the issue is that the unfaithful spouse is turning to someone BESIDES their spouse for the things that ONLY their spouse should be giving them. 

Having said that, keep in mind that you do not need to apologize for your wife making the choice to go outside the marriage. Instead, you should be making some intense study of your marriage, finding out the innate problems that created the ENVIRONMENT where this choice seem acceptable. Get rid of those. 

And part of those issues are directly related to your porn 'addiction'. Most likely not all, but that was damaging to your wife - it was certainly not a moral means of leading your family. 

Keep this in mind as well: a person's flaws are not irrelevant - they are things that need to be worked on. Love does not ignore them - it helps a person overcome them. Keeping score is most certainly wrong - it is a lack of forgiveness. But ignoring them is also as damaging. If these are not addressed, there is a lack of growth - and as the leader in your home, you have a job to do: lead your family toward improvement. And the start is right there with you - ending the things you know are wrong. You've made a great start.


----------



## marksaysay

Tanelornpete said:


> Couple of things to point out: the passage to which the above poster referred actually says "...But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery..." - that is, with the exception of sex outside the marriage, a divorce causes the wife to become an 'adulteress.' (Matt 5:31-32). Paul explains that passage in more depth in 1 Corinthians 7.
> 
> But it does point to a much deeper thread of thought that runs with Jesus' and Paul's advice on marriage: the husband is indeed held responsible for the spiritual life of his family. He is by nature the leader of the family, and his choices tend to influence his family's decisions. Keep that in mind when you do approach the porn 'addiction' you talk about.
> 
> A more relevant passage, one that addresses your objection, is one that you should be paying more attention to:
> 
> "...But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart..."
> 
> The idea of a 'fantasy world which didn't involve contact with another individual' is irrelevant in your case: you claim to be a Christian. This idea has NOTHING to do with _physical_ touch - what is involved is the breaking of your covenant (the contract you made with your wife). A great verse that refers to the importance of that contract is "...Whatever your lips utter you must be sure to do, because you made your vow freely to the LORD your God with your own mouth..." (Deuteronomy 23:23). The error of adultery is the idea of turning to another person for something that is designed to be between you and your spouse.
> 
> Note: that is why I always say that it is virtually irrelevant whether an affair is emotional or physical. A PA simply involves possible health issues. But the issue is that the unfaithful spouse is turning to someone BESIDES their spouse for the things that ONLY their spouse should be giving them.
> 
> Having said that, keep in mind that you do not need to apologize for your wife making the choice to go outside the marriage. Instead, you should be making some intense study of your marriage, finding out the innate problems that created the ENVIRONMENT where this choice seem acceptable. Get rid of those.
> 
> And part of those issues are directly related to your porn 'addiction'. Most likely not all, but that was damaging to your wife - it was certainly not a moral means of leading your family.
> 
> Keep this in mind as well: a person's flaws are not irrelevant - they are things that need to be worked on. Love does not ignore them - it helps a person overcome them. Keeping score is most certainly wrong - it is a lack of forgiveness. But ignoring them is also as damaging. If these are not addressed, there is a lack of growth - and as the leader in your home, you have a job to do: lead your family toward improvement. And the start is right there with you - ending the things you know are wrong. You've made a great start.


Ok. I've disclosed to someone we both respect and look up to and my wife won't even speak to her. I think it's due to the other person asking if she wanted to talk and not saying "I need to talk to you". I've told my family, her family, and a few respected members of our church. He mother basically told me that I should just accept it. Should I have asked them to try and speak to her or is just telling them enough? Should I tell more people? Am I now ready move to the 'carrot and stick' phase? Can this works if we are in separate places? What is the recommended tine frame for this phase? Is this where you do the 180? Any feedback would be appreciated....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Deejo

Do not choose someone that does not choose you.

I think you're getting some great input, but I'm going to cut to the chase; you need to let go of the idea that any of this changes at all any time soon.

You have a lot of work to do on your own self-esteem, self-control, boundaries, and a 'mission' to live by. Your 'mission' should not be 'I want to get my wife back'. If you reconcile it will be incidental to the other positive changes you have made, not a result of having made them.


----------



## turnera

Yes, go back to them and tell them what she's doing, ask them to talk to her. I would tell as many people as she cares about, people she wouldn't WANT to know what she is doing. If she's going to cheat, she has to deal with the stigma. Make sure you let her know she's welcome back home as soon as she chooses one man only, you. Expect her to be mad when they start calling her.


----------



## marksaysay

marksaysay said:


> Ok. I've disclosed to someone we both respect and look up to and my wife won't even speak to her. I think it's due to the other person asking if she wanted to talk and not saying "I need to talk to you". I've told my family, her family, and a few respected members of our church. He mother basically told me that I should just accept it. Should I have asked them to try and speak to her or is just telling them enough? Should I tell more people? Am I now ready move to the 'carrot and stick' phase? Can this works if we are in separate places? What is the recommended tine frame for this phase? Is this where you do the 180? Any feedback would be appreciated....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My pastor has decided that since my wife will not come to him, he's going to go to her. I've told him about everything I know. I also told him that my request was not for him to ask her to come back to me but to let her know that he knows about what she's been doing. I think this will have an affect on her because she's always been one who cared about what others thought. But who knows what will happen during this fog. She doesn't know that our families both already know. I hope this will snap her out. I'm convinced it's more the fog than what I've done because one of her texts to a friend stated that she was going to end things with me because I wanted her to stop what she was doing.

Another question...how do you deal with the fury that comes as a result of disclosure. I know she's gonna be really mad. Is that what will break her from the fog?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Affaircare

marksaysay said:


> My pastor has decided that since my wife will not come to him, he's going to go to her. I've told him about everything I know. I also told him that *my request was not for him to ask her to come back to me but to let her know that he knows about what she's been doing*. I think this will have an affect on her because she's always been one who cared about what others thought.


I'll be blunt, marksaysay--this is one of the wisest things I've seen you do. The bold part is particularly on the money. You know how Tanelorn and I operate, and I would have to say that a certain period of time separated, wherein you prove yourself and commitment to dealing with your porn issue, would be appropriate. During the time apart, the proper biblical response on her side would be to continue honoring God and her marriage. Thus, it's not the time apart that's the problem, but her response of turning outside her marriage unfaithfully. 

You need to make sure the phone pole is out of your own eye and work on your porn problems. 

She needs to make sure the phone pole is out of her eye and work on her infidelity problems. 

THEN you two could come together and rebuild a Godly, loving marriage. 



> But who knows what will happen during this fog. She doesn't know that our families both already know. I hope this will snap her out. I'm convinced it's more the fog than what I've done because one of her texts to a friend stated that she was going to end things with me because I wanted her to stop what she was doing.


Well bear in mind that she will likely say anything she thinks she "has to" in order to magnify the problems in the marriage and minimize the problems with infidelity. Likewise, she'll say anything to maximize the benefits of being unfaithful and justify it...and minimize the costs of adultery. So her saying that to her friend is very likely her way of trying to convince the friend what a horrible monster you are..and that's why she has to dishonor her covenant! 

Okay so you've told your pastor and he's going to "go to her" (YES! Thank you God for a strong pastor). Let's pray about that meeting together, and you continue on working on keeping pure eyes. Are you doing a bible study on fidelity or faithfulness? That might be helpful--hint, hint. I suspect it may also be helpful in renewing your mind to learn about what God thinks about fidelity both in marriage and His own faithfulness.


----------



## turnera

Just remember that your WS WILL be mad that you exposed. They are SUPPOSED to be mad. That means that exposure WORKED!

Just smile, refuse to be drawn into a pointless discussion, and say "I'm trying to save my married from your adultery."


----------



## marksaysay

turnera said:


> Just remember that your WS WILL be mad that you exposed. They are SUPPOSED to be mad. That means that exposure WORKED!
> 
> Just smile, refuse to be drawn into a pointless discussion, and say "I'm trying to save my married from your adultery."


Okay, my wife was furious that I told her mother. She was furious that I knew about another man whom she continues to lie about. She said they only exchanged a picture to put in their contacts, but why would you do that at 2 am and why are there 4 or 5 pictures from each of them. She's mad that I found out through our joint cell phone accounts. She says that I'm "stalking" her because I keep finding out about her lies. I found out today that she still hadn't paid the fee for the divorce, but she said she would do it on Monday. She said that last week, too. I also found out today that she did cheat,which I already felt she did. She said that I need to get it in my head that she doesn't want me. I'm almost beginning to believe her. She's supposed to meet with our pastor tomorrow and I know she's gonna be furious that he knows. Is this all a part of the "fog" or should I stop while I have my sanity? She seems to really have her mind made up.

She's been so untruthful to me at this point, I don't really know what to believe. She has really made me feel as if she doesn't really love me anymore. When I told her that I was fighting for my family, she said there is no family anymore. But what do I believe. She lied about the getting off of the dating website. She lied about people from the website having her phone number. She lied about not knowing the guy I caught her with. She lied when she said hadn't cheated on me. She lied about everything, so what do I believe.


----------



## turnera

Stay calm. She is trying to create CHAOS based on what you know.

Remain calm.

YOU know what's going on.

The more she tries to make YOU look bad, the worse she looks.

Stay calm.


----------



## turnera

Reminder: Cheaters LIE.

And they LIE WELL.


----------



## marksaysay

turnera said:


> Stay calm. She is trying to create CHAOS based on what you know.
> 
> Remain calm.
> 
> YOU know what's going on.
> 
> The more she tries to make YOU look bad, the worse she looks.
> 
> Stay calm.


So you don't think I was wrong for doing any of the things I did? Did I stalk her? Should I not give up and continue on with the 7 steps from affaircare's site? Is it a good thing that she's so angry about me calling her mom? I just want to gain some type of reassurance that I'm on the right path. She really made me believe that she's done and that she didn't care about who knew about her infidelity. She's said that she now no longer has even a desire to be friends with me, not knowing that I really can't and don't want to be friends with her. I want to be her husband and lifelong partner, and if I can't, then I won't be her friend.


----------



## turnera

My option is that you have to decide your own personal boundaries.
Aside from what you want in a marriage.
What can YOU live with?


----------



## marksaysay

turnera said:


> My option is that you have to decide your own personal boundaries.
> Aside from what you want in a marriage.
> What can YOU live with?


Would elaborate more about what you mean about boundaries? What do mean about what I can live with?


----------



## turnera

THIS woman aside, what would you require for ANY woman to be involved?


----------



## Affaircare

marksaysay said:


> So you don't think I was wrong for doing any of the things I did? Did I stalk her? Should I not give up and continue on with the 7 steps from affaircare's site? Is it a good thing that she's so angry about me calling her mom? I just want to gain some type of reassurance that I'm on the right path. She really made me believe that she's done and that she didn't care about who knew about her infidelity. She's said that she now no longer has even a desire to be friends with me, not knowing that I really can't and don't want to be friends with her. I want to be her husband and lifelong partner, and if I can't, then I won't be her friend.


Marksaysay, I keep going back to the Bible, not because I'm trying to preach at you, but because you said you're a Christian and really believe that. So look at what the Bible says about husbands and wives. "Adam KNEW his wife Eve..." in Genesis right? That doesn't mean he just had sex with her. If that's all it was, there are Hebrew words for that. This means that two of them were intimate--they were transparently honest, they shared themselves with each other, they were open, he took the time to study her and she took the time to study him...he KNEW her. That intimate kind of sharing and entwining was expressed physically and resulted in a child. 

So, it is not stalking to want to know your wife intimately: who she's with, what she's doing, where she is and how long she'll be, why she would rather be on the phone than with you, when she will get off the phone. Part of being married is that you take another person into account and you are no longer just one...but a team! It is right and reasonable for a husband to show that kind of interest in his wife and for her to show that kind of interest in her husband. But almost every Disloyal I know will follow the script of saying "How DARE you invade my privacy!" when their Loyal Spouse tells them that they looked at the phone and discovered the adultery. This is because rather than face and admit that they did wrong, it is much easier to blame you and deflect so that the focus is you rather than looking at their own choice to commit adultery. 

See how that is? If you were doing something that you knew was wrong...like viewing porn as an example...and you were trying to cover it up and lying about it, but my Dear Hubby spoke to you and said "I have proof that you've been viewing porn" wouldn't your first, knee-jerk reaction be to deny it and shout something about what HE was doing wrong? It's human nature. She's been caught. She won't be able to lie about it anymore or mislead others that it's your fault. So it's human nature to get mad. 

Just so you know, her reaction is not unusual and you are not on the wrong track. If anything, you told the truth, and the truth is she is not being faithful. FYI, faithfulness is "offering 100% of her affection and loyalty to the one to whom it's due" and as long as she is not offering ALL of her affection to you and ALL of her loyalty to you and not the OM...she is being unfaithful. If she does not like her mom knowing that she's committing adultery, she always has the choice to STOP COMMITTING ADULTERY! If she doesn't like you looking through her phone to find out her secret sexual rendezvous with other men, she has the choice to open up her phone to you, share it with the man to whom she has made a commitment, and stop being sexual with other men. 

So do you see what I mean? She is mad--no doubt. You caught her, didn't keep it a secret, and now you're not going "according to her fantasy" (of divorcing nicely and staying "friends" so you can continue to meet her needs). She's about 99% mad at herself and is squirming now because the affair has gone from a "dirty little secret" to uncomfortable and inconvenient. Stay the course; stay honest; keep working on your own issue; and don't accept "guilt" for the things for which SHE is personally responsible. She is the ship in the middle of the ocean in a storm--you are the lighthouse on the shore guiding her home.


----------



## Tanelornpete

> So you don't think I was wrong for doing any of the things I did? Did I stalk her? Should I not give up and continue on with the 7 steps from affaircare's site? Is it a good thing that she's so angry about me calling her mom? I just want to gain some type of reassurance that I'm on the right path. She really made me believe that she's done and that she didn't care about who knew about her infidelity. She's said that she now no longer has even a desire to be friends with me, not knowing that I really can't and don't want to be friends with her. I want to be her husband and lifelong partner, and if I can't, then I won't be her friend.


Mark, don't forget that she is choosing to view things this way: she is using every resource she has to justify her actions, including what, in essence, is fabricated out of thin air. She is following what has been called 'the script' almost perfectly. She is acting in a very predictable way. She is manipulating the facts: magnifying your faults, minimizing hers. Maximizing the good of the other man (men) and minimizing their faults.

Even more importantly (_infinitely more important_) is the fact that she is operating on her emotions. She is _reacting_ rather than acting. She is embarrassed that people know she was behaving immorally. And, she is turning that into anger, and then acting out of anger toward you, her family, her church - _anyone_ who does not favor infidelity and lying. 

On the other hand, you have the choice to be absolutely deliberate, purposeful and proactive. You have a calm spot in which you can stand in the middle of this storm.

So, are her actions moral activity on her part? Obviously it is not. What Turnera wrote is _very_ true: 



> THIS woman aside, what would you require for ANY woman to be involved?


What is expected? We are told in Scripture to treat EVERYONE, even our enemies, with love. Is this how your wife treats you? If not, is this what you want from a woman? If not, what DO you want? What is right?



> She really made me believe that she's done and that she didn't care about who knew about her infidelity.


So, is this true? Does she really not care? From what you say, she is furious at you that other people know - and yet she somehow got you to believe this? Here's something to ponder: the fact that she said she didn't care, and yet got this angry reveals that she was lying. How much else of what is coming out of her is equally untrue? This is why we call it 'the fog'.

You ask above:



> "...She lied about everything, so what do I believe...."


You can believe that she is lying to you a great deal of the time. You can believe that she doesn't mean half of what she says. You even know how people in her position act. 

Look up 2 Timothy 1:12!


----------



## marksaysay

Tanelornpete/Affaircare, thank you guys for keeping me encouraged. She was really mad tonight and obviously thinking quite irrationally, which is to be expected. And now that I think about it, she was never really this mad and angry until I found out about so many of her actions. She was OK as long as I didn't know. But now I do know and she can't stand it. I threatened to call the individual with whom I suspected she'd had a PA with if she did not tell me the truth. This bothered her greatly so she did admit. She did say some things that made me wonder if I was doing the right thing, but I loved Affaircare's analogy of the "guiding the ship back to the shore." God knows that's what I'm trying to do. She told me that she didn't feel any remorse about her infidelity, which also made me wonder if I should give up. But then I began to think, who is remorseful when they are so entangled and engaged in what they've been doing? A close friend, who knows about this whole situation, asked under what circumstances would I accept her back. I told him that they would obviously be on my terms and not on hers. I told him that she would have to truly express remorse and that going to counselling had to be a must. I would not accept her under any other circumstances. I also told him that I'd considered giving up based on the events of today, but that I just felt so strongly that this was a storm that would pass. I told him that I felt deeply that she still loved me and that this was just a brief but highly education experience in our lifelong journey together that would make both of us better suited for the other. He also encouraged me to continue to go with my heart. I'm not saying that I will wait forever, especially since it's important in Plan B, that a time frame be set and followed, but I'm not gonna give up. I wouldn't be able to live with myself if I did not do what I could to save this family.


----------



## AFEH

marksaysay said:


> Would elaborate more about what you mean about boundaries? What do mean about what I can live with?


Hi Mark, Take a look at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/14963-boundaries-men.html.

At these times all we can do is work on ourselves. You will get told lies, you will be deceived, you will be blamed and you will get denial from your wife. This is not the time to react to any of that.

This is the time to construct your boundaries to protect yourself from lies, deceits, denial and blames. You do that with your N.U.T.s. These are your Non-negotiable, Unalterable Terms.

Here’s one for you concerning your wife “I will not accept any of your criticism until you have ended your abusive behaviour”. State that as a matter of fact and do not respond to anymore criticism other than by stating that boundary. She’ll get the idea pretty soon. I don’t know enough of your situation to suggest other boundaries for you.

You take the control away from her with your boundaries. For example, she is stopping you calling OM, she has done that. For goodness sake call him if you want to, don’t just threaten to call him.

These type of boundaries are kind of like pulling up your drawbridge. You leave her outside your castle, you and everything you represent, to make her mind up to do what she wants to do. If she wants back in again then she must knock on your door, then it’s up to you what you do if you hear the knock.

Bob


----------



## marksaysay

AFEH said:


> Here’s one for you concerning your wife “I will not accept any of your criticism until you have ended your abusive behaviour”. State that as a matter of fact and do not respond to anymore criticism other than by stating that boundary. She’ll get the idea pretty soon. I don’t know enough of your situation to suggest other boundaries for you.


I like this one. I think I may do exactly that. I will have to look at and decide on more boundaries so that I can continue to maintain my self-respect. I have to put the ball back in my court as it relates to control.





AFEH said:


> You take the control away from her with your boundaries. For example, she is stopping you calling OM, she has done that. For goodness sake call him if you want to, don’t just threaten to call him..


This one puts me in a difficult predicament. Because of my finances, I'm not able to maintain our home on my income alone which is why I decided to move out and get an apartment. I signed a lease on Monday and will move in tomorrow. Since she knows about my financial abilities and since I keep exposing her, she threatens to walk away from the house and leave me high and dry knowing that I can't handle it. Her name is not on the loan because her credit would not allow it, but her name is on the deed. She says that if I contact any other person, she will leave the house and let it go to forclosure if I can't handle it. I've worked hard to correct many of my past credit mistakes and don't want to deal with something like that. I'm not sure contacting anyone else is necessary since she knows that I know. She also found my excel sheet highlighting all of her activity. She's mad about that, too. 


Bob


----------



## AFEH

Yes. You must do things that help you maintain and increase your self-respect and self-esteem. Without those two things and your boundaries you quite literally make yourself a doormat. And what women wants a doormat she can clean her shoes on anytime she likes?

I was wondering about your finances. Maybe this is a bit of a time for reflection? In the future do everything you possibly can to be financially independent. You’ve learnt a very hard lesson about financial dependency. You are not alone in that.

I don’t agree with “exposing” at all. I can’t see the point in it. All it does is create more and more aggravation in the WS and in my mind will drive her even more into the arms of the OM. Plus it is a real bonding thing for them, whatever bond they have between them is made even stronger by “exposure”. It gives them something to talk about and laugh about.

Well you’ve kind of withdrawn to a new castle. I would never have moved out of my home under any circumstances. But what’s done is done I guess. If OM moves into your home you are going to have one heck of a battle on your hands.

Bob


----------



## Affaircare

marksaysay said:


> ...I threatened to call the individual with whom I suspected she'd had a PA with if she did not tell me the truth. This bothered her greatly so she did admit.


 Just a note, marksaysay. Making threats is not a Love Kindler because it is forcing someone to do what they do not want to do voluntarily--it is a controlling, Love Extinguishing behavior. Thus I would strongly suggest not threatening her. It's one thing to make a statement about you, what you will do or what you will accept--it's another to threaten her with the intent to make her do something. Okay? Give that a thought. 




> She told me that she didn't feel any remorse about her infidelity... But then I began to think, who is remorseful when they are so entangled and engaged in what they've been doing?


This is an excellent point. Yes, we would HOPE that when she realizes that it's not a secret that she'd immediately be sorry and stop, but in real life that isn't usually how it happens. In real life, it usually has to get pretty uncomfortable first...and my guess is that she has EXTREME resentment and hurt over the porn. Still you are beginning to be able to see your way through her Disloyal Dizzy fog talk to more realistic reason. 



> A close friend, who knows about this whole situation, asked under what circumstances would I accept her back. I told him that they would obviously be on my terms and not on hers. I told him that she would have to truly express remorse and that going to counselling had to be a must. I would not accept her under any other circumstances.


I would like to suggest a few things. First, if you only "accept her back on your terms" does she even get a say in her own relationship or are you trying to control her again. This isn't the first controlling behavior I've seen so I'm beginning to think "hmmm...." Next, what about God's terms? Did you stop to check if your terms match what He says to do? What if she decides to "do the right thing" even though her heart isn't in it, and she ends contact with the OM but doesn't "feel the love" or feel remorse at all (yet)? I point these things out to you because you are getting the idea of not being a doormat and not letting the unfaithful person make the decision for the relationship, but it's almost as if the pendulum has swung the opposite way now. She expressed to you over and over that her terms were that she would not be a partner with someone who valued porn above her or who committed sexual impurity by looking at porn, and yet you enjoyed it and justified yourself. The difference is that you've seen the error of your choices. Have you every considered that she may be thinking sort of like you are? That she'll only take you back on HER terms and not yours; that counseling is required for a long time first; and that you have to "truly express remorse"? 

Again I point this out to you because when a person decides to do the right thing because it is the right thing to do, the "emotional feeling" of remorse may not always be there at that moment. As they continue to do the right thing, and as the foggy-thinking clears more and more...as the addiction to the 'affair zing' subsides... THEN she'll start to think more clearly about what she's done and emotions will follow. But God doesn't tell us to obey "when we feel sorry" or "when we have emotions about it." He expects us to obey NOW whether we feel it or not. 

When people consider reconciling with their Disloyals, we usually recommend that there be three requirements:

1) A No Contact Letter. The Disloyal has to voluntarily agree to never, ever contact the OP ever. If they work with the OP they may have to quit their job! And as part of this agreement, the Disloyal writes a No Contact Letter to the OP and they give it to the Loyal...who mails it. 

2) Personal Transparency. BOTH spouses agree to be completely open and honest with each other. We use the word "transparency" because that means letting the other person see the Real You and not hiding yourself. We suggest that you both share access to all your accounts, both share email passwords, cell phones...everything. You let her check on you and she lets you check on her. 

3) Commitment. Both spouses agree to commit to doing whatever work is required--on their personal issues and the marital issues. Both agree that they will not avoid their own issues and blame the other, and both work to change. There may be personal issues that need to be addressed, and there definitely are issues in the marriage that need to be rebuilt. 




> ...but that I just *felt *so strongly that this was a storm that would pass. I told him that I *felt *deeply that she still loved me and that this was just a brief but highly education experience in our lifelong journey together that would make both of us better suited for the other. He also encouraged me to *continue to go with my heart*. I'm not saying that I will wait forever, especially since it's important in Plan B, that a time frame be set and followed, but I'm not gonna give up. I wouldn't be able to live with myself if I did not do what I could to save this family.


Did you notice how you are allowing your emotions to dictate your actions and your decisions? See how three times you mentioned feelings but did not once mention THINKING? In this instance, I propose that you follow a plan based on rational, reasonable THOUGHTS. Your feelings are fickle, unstable, and wavering--and thus they make a poor way for deciding what to do and when. By contrast, making a plan based on rational thought can be consistent, stable and unwavering in the face of a rollercoaster of emotions. So go to God's word, figure out what HIS plan is, and follow that no matter how you feel.


----------



## marksaysay

Affaircare said:


> Just a note, marksaysay. Making threats is not a Love Kindler because it is forcing someone to do what they do not want to do voluntarily--it is a controlling, Love Extinguishing behavior. Thus I would strongly suggest not threatening her. It's one thing to make a statement about you, what you will do or what you will accept--it's another to threaten her with the intent to make her do something. Okay? Give that a thought. .


You are so right about that. I didn't even consider this in the heat of the moment. I just knew she was lying about it so I just used a tactic that I thought would get that out of her. I'm really not a very hostile or controlling guy. I will say that one of the reasons we are here is that during our relationship, I was quite selfish. But I will fix this. 






Affaircare said:


> This is an excellent point. Yes, we would HOPE that when she realizes that it's not a secret that she'd immediately be sorry and stop, but in real life that isn't usually how it happens. In real life, it usually has to get pretty uncomfortable first...and my guess is that she has EXTREME resentment and hurt over the porn. Still you are beginning to be able to see your way through her Disloyal Dizzy fog talk to more realistic reason. .


I'm hoping that by my pastor speaking with her about all that's going on, this will serve to be an eye opener. I really don't expect her to be remorseful right away. That would be a sign that she's coming out, i believe, and I don't think she's there yet. 





Affaircare said:


> I would like to suggest a few things. First, if you only "accept her back on your terms" does she even get a say in her own relationship or are you trying to control her again....The difference is that you've seen the error of your choices. Have you every considered that she may be thinking sort of like you are? That she'll only take you back on HER terms and not yours; that counseling is required for a long time first; and that you have to "truly express remorse"? .


Maybe I'm trying to get advice from too many people at this time. The idea was about a boundary and maybe I don't fully understand or grasp the concept. It is not about controlling her, really, but more about me. I really don't control her and haven't ever. And yes, I have considered that she's thinking like me. I'm hoping that she doesn't take as long as I did to start thinking differently.




Affaircare said:


> When people consider reconciling with their Disloyals, we usually recommend that there be three requirements:
> 
> 1) A No Contact Letter. The Disloyal has to voluntarily agree to never, ever contact the OP ever. If they work with the OP they may have to quit their job! And as part of this agreement, the Disloyal writes a No Contact Letter to the OP and they give it to the Loyal...who mails it.
> 
> 2) Personal Transparency. BOTH spouses agree to be completely open and honest with each other. We use the word "transparency" because that means letting the other person see the Real You and not hiding yourself. We suggest that you both share access to all your accounts, both share email passwords, cell phones...everything. You let her check on you and she lets you check on her.
> 
> 3) Commitment. Both spouses agree to commit to doing whatever work is required--on their personal issues and the marital issues. Both agree that they will not avoid their own issues and blame the other, and both work to change. There may be personal issues that need to be addressed, and there definitely are issues in the marriage that need to be rebuilt.


Again, I need to stay committed to your methods and principles and not let too many other sources cloud my way of thinking. I think this is perfect as it does not dictate but agrees. This, I feel, would be the best way to handle a reconciliation, if there is one. 



Affaircare said:


> Did you notice how you are allowing your emotions to dictate your actions and your decisions? See how three times you mentioned feelings but did not once mention THINKING? In this instance, I propose that you follow a plan based on rational, reasonable THOUGHTS. Your feelings are fickle, unstable, and wavering--and thus they make a poor way for deciding what to do and when. By contrast, making a plan based on rational thought can be consistent, stable and unwavering in the face of a rollercoaster of emotions. So go to God's word, figure out what HIS plan is, and follow that no matter how you feel.


Are you saying that my FEELINGS are bad? Most of everything I know at this point is based on the fact that I went with my gut feeling and it was found to be accurate. Don't get me wrong, when the feelings arrived there was much thinking involved as to the validity of what I was feeling. I'm still gonna be prayerful and seek God's will.

Also, is it bad that my wife says that she gave me fair warning that if I didn't change this would happen. Is that a bad sign?


----------



## Tanelornpete

> Maybe I'm trying to get advice from too many people at this time. The idea was about a boundary and maybe I don't fully understand or grasp the concept. It is not about controlling her, really, but more about me...


The problem isn't getting advice from too many people: the problem would be in trying to implement contradictory or contrary actions. Then things get difficult. Just refer to Acts 17:11 before adopting any advice. Makes it much simpler.



> Are you saying that my FEELINGS are bad? Most of everything I know at this point is based on the fact that I went with my gut feeling and it was found to be accurate. Don't get me wrong, when the feelings arrived there was much thinking involved as to the validity of what I was feeling. I'm still gonna be prayerful and seek God's will.


It isn't that feelings are bad - they are not; they are simply reactions to prior thoughts. The key to rational action (remember Romans 12:2?) is to keep in mind that this is a reaction, and then locate the initial thought process - and then determine the morality of that thought! Even your gut feeling that lead to your discovery of the affair was not the primary source; you knew things weren't quite right, deep inside, even before you could voice them. That gut reaction was the response to those thoughts. 

So many people act the moment they feel something: they immediately jump to fill that emotional need - without examining _why_ that emotion happened. We've been trained to act that way: makes you much easier to control - great for the State and great for business. Makes for a lot of infidelity too. It takes some effort to begin looking for the prior thoughts!



> Also, is it bad that my wife says that she gave me fair warning that if I didn't change this would happen. Is that a bad sign?


I can understand the desire to look into the future to see how things will turn out: if we could do that we'd be able to alleviate a lot of stress and anxiety. If you knew your wife was coming back say, next March, you could relax and get busy with a hobby, or travel, etc. Crystal balls don't work, and even if they did, you are a Christian: remember Leviticus 19:31! 

But consider this: did your wife really tell you that if you looked at porn, she would have an affair? If so, would you accept that as 'good' or 'bad'? In reality, she had a specific boundariy: she did not want a husband who chose porn over her. She believed (possibly even for a Scriptural reason) that this was wrong, and wanted to abide by that. 

One wrong never justifies another wrong however: her moral choice would have been to request that you leave, based upon your behavior, and that she would remain faithful, with all that entails (1 Corinthians 7:10-11). But she chose an affair. That is just plain wrong.

So, is it bad that your wife says she gave you fair warning? Only if that warning included immoral behavior on her part. In that case, you would be best served by taking a good long look at your marriage: there are a lot of unaddressed problems there. If, on the other hand, that warning (and the accompanying consequences) caused you to re-examine your life and make moral changes - then no, it isn't necessarily bad - _even if the end result is the loss of your marriage _. It would be bad if you chose NOT to proceed to make the necessary changes. But in the end, it would be good if it brought about growth in you!

Always look back to Romans 8:28!


----------



## Affaircare

I think rather than quote from different posts, I'm going to take a bit of a general approach. 

From what you've written, it sounded like you were confusing and equating "intuition" and "acting on your emotions." "Intuition" would be trusting your gut instinct. Usually if you think about it, a person gets a gut instinct because there are some facts here or there that they notice or gather and mull over, sometimes even sub-consciously, and then put 2+2 together. "Intuition" is not acting based on emotion--it's more like acting on facts you've gathered and noticed but couldn't necessarily list off. It's been on your mind stewing in the background and now you have an awareness or understanding. Okay? Got that one? 

"Acting on your emotions" is different. Emotions are actually something we decide on ourselves, but they also can change up and down based on circumstances. As two quick examples, think of the story of Joseph and Paul in prison. Joseph had good reason to feel depressed, vengeful, and vindictive that his own brothers sold him. Then he had YEARS and YEARS of his life being treated like a slave and having to serve others, and being in horrible prison. But Joseph made the decision to trust God, do his best, and honor God despite the circumstances. Same for Paul. He was in prison about to be put to death for preaching the gospel and what does he say? "...I have learned the secret of being content in any and every situation..." (Phil 4:12). Again he made the choice to be content even in jail about to die. Yet despite the fact that we actually choose our feelings, very, very often people say that their circumstances dictate their mood or their spouse/partner "made them" happy or sad or angry. How often have you heard or thought: "She's cheating! Of course it made me mad!" or "If she hadn't burned the dinner I wouldn't have been raging at her"? These are typical examples...not real you, ya know? But that means "If he or she isn't perfect, then my emotions/feelings go up and down, loop de loop, back and forth...and I have no control over it whatsoever. I couldn't help myself!" I personally think we can choose our feelings in spite of circumstances, but even if we couldn't...if emotions can change with the wind and change on a dime, it wouldn't make sense to try to demonstrate a stable, committed, consistent love based on something that changes up and down and twists every few minutes! You want to base your choices on something that can stay stable, committed and consistent all through the ups and downs and twists and turns. That way you may absolutely feel happy or sad or angry or loving (or all at the same time) but your actions and choices are SOLID. 

So see what I mean? Feelings are not bad. Shoot, I'm a Feeler person and I tend to gather info and interpret it through my emotions too, just like you. Feelings are the ways we enjoy things and experience things, and they can warn us of impending danger. But they are a reaction. The trick is to get to the thought that brought about the feeling in the first place. 

*********

The other thing I observed in your replies is that we're talking about "boundaries" but it sounds like you're having some trouble figuring out exactly what those are. To be completely blunt, AFEH has a very firm knowledge of what a boundary is, and in that regard I believe he will probably be able to help you a lot. 

But in a summary, a boundary is not about your wife and setting up rules "for her." A boundary is about YOU. Envision setting up a fence around YOU and saying "Here's what I'll allow inside my fence, and here's what I will not allow inside." A threat would be telling your wife how she has to construct her fence, or what she will or will not allow inside her fence; it's force. Making a boundary, and then stating it, is talking about YOU and sharing with others where you built your fence and what are allow in and what you don't. 

So how about a couple of examples of what is not a boundary...and then a couple examples of some good boundaries? 

*NOT A BOUNDARY:* 

"You have to stop going out for 'night out' on Friday nights." 
"You have to show me your cell phone everyday!"
"Tell me if you two had sex or I'm calling that OP and I'll find out!"
"Did you do housework today? What did you get done? "
"Why were you late coming home from church? Were you with someone?"

Just as a review, see how each of those examples would be one person trying to control the other person? 

Now I'll use the same concepts but word them as a boundary. 

*A GOOD BOUNDARY:* 

_(These would not be for "when you're dating," because at that point you can think about the kinds of attributes you'd look for in a woman/wife. These are for "after you're already married" because that commitment is already made, and you don't want to threaten the marriage over every difference.)_


"You are free to choose for yourself, but I want to be with a spouse who would rather spend time at home or out with me than going to 'nights out' excluding me. So we need to reach a mutual agreement we are both enthusiastic about."
"I choose to be with a spouse who will openly share themselves with me, be honest and be transparent. Thus either one of us could look at the others' things because we share things intimately" 
"If a person wants to have the benefits of being with me and share my Love Kindlers, I would accept nothing less than 100% of their affection and loyalty. If some affection is given to another or they are loyal to someone other than me, I will not allow that kind of treatment in my life."
"I want a spouse in my life who shares my definition of cleanliness and who has a work ethic similar to mine, so we need to meet a mutual understanding about housework and we need to be accountable to actually following through on the chores we're responsible for."
"I sought out a spouse who is considerate enough to call if he/she is going to be late and who will not hide their whereabouts from me. I do expect honesty, transparency and intimate sharing with my spouse and that includes whereabouts."

To review the same things about these boundaries, do you see how the first person is just stating what they will and will not allow/tolerate in their life? The second person may or may not be that way--they have the freedom (and responsibility) to make their own choices--but the first person is just making statements about their own self! It's all about YOU. 

So does that make more sense? One very basic boundary we (Tanelorn and I) strongly suggest to people is "I will not tolerate a spouse offers anything other than 100% of their affection and loyalty to me." That is right in line with the vows (...forsaking all others...) and right in line with the Bible's ideas about fidelity and faithfulness.


----------



## marksaysay

Update: My wife met with our pastor today. My pastor did tell me that he disclosed to her the fact that he was aware of her infidelities and that regardless of whether or not she gets back with me, she is still married at this point and that God will not be pleased with her actions. She told him that she would stop, but I'm not sure I believe that. He said that while she did not show remorse, she put her head in her hands and said, "Oh, he's telling everybody." I haven't really told everybody, but I have told him, her mother, and her aunt all of the details and her dad and step-mom some of the details. She told him that she doesn't want anything to do with me and that she just wants me to be a father to my child. My pastor thinks that her lack of remorse is not a good sign as it relates to our reconciliation, but to me, the most telling sign was the recognition of the "cat being out of the bag." Is this typical and to be expected? 

He told me that I should just leave her alone which is really leading me to the next step anyway, Carrot and Stick. While I understand that this is not a full proof way of reconciling with my wife, it will definitely help me. As I moved into my apartment today, I realized that I may actually enjoy being by myself. This will give me alot of time to really concentrate on me. So tell me guys, what do you think?

Another question..she's so mad that I know so much about her activities through her cell phone records. She threatened that if i don't separate our accounts, that she would stop paying the bill and force me to suffer the consequences. Obviously, I don't want to have to pay nor can I afford to pay for her phone, but I also don't want to give her the ability to do what she wants without being noticed. What should I do?


----------



## the guy

Mark,
Maybe the phone thing is a good way to start the "Carrot and Stick"

What I mean is, the consequences go both ways. She will lose the contact that she may want with you. So go get a cheap plan and move forward. 

Don't let this phone grap fool you call her bluff and tell her you will give her your new number when YOU are ready.


----------



## marksaysay

Wife just continues to lie. Found out that she'd been calling another guy from the website and that she'd shown his picture to several of her friends and is even planning on meeting up with him. She lied to our pastor yesterday about stopping her activities because she was back to her old tricks last night. I am so trying to believe she will come out of this, but it seems likely that she may not as she has already involved her "friends" in her plans to be unfaithful. Maybe I should expect this? How do I stop feeling so bad? I was in good spirits after finding out about her conversation with our pastor, thinking that it might affect her knowing that he knew everything. But to realize that she lied to him also caused my emotional state to take a few steps backward. I am about to spend some time in prayer because God knows I need to talk to him about my plight. Should I continue now to take it to the "carrot and stick" phase, or should I give up? Something keeps telling me to do all I can possibly do, but the results of this process tell me something different. Which way do I go?


----------



## AFEH

marksaysay said:


> Wife just continues to lie. Found out that she'd been calling another guy from the website and that she'd shown his picture to several of her friends and is even planning on meeting up with him. She lied to our pastor yesterday about stopping her activities because she was back to her old tricks last night. I am so trying to believe she will come out of this, but it seems likely that she may not as she has already involved her "friends" in her plans to be unfaithful. Maybe I should expect this? How do I stop feeling so bad? I was in good spirits after finding out about her conversation with our pastor, thinking that it might affect her knowing that he knew everything. But to realize that she lied to him also caused my emotional state to take a few steps backward. I am about to spend some time in prayer because God knows I need to talk to him about my plight. Should I continue now to take it to the "carrot and stick" phase, or should I give up? Something keeps telling me to do all I can possibly do, but the results of this process tell me something different. Which way do I go?


If it was my wife she’d be out the door and told I might let her back in when I’m good and ready. But it does depend on your situation. I‘d cut all contact with her even contact via proxies, family, friends etc. Then I’d get on with my life.



Doesn’t sound like a “fog” at all to me. Rather it sounds like she is making plans to leave you and has been for a while. Why not tell her that? Something like “I know you are planning to leave me. Do the right thing and leave now”.

Bob


----------



## Tanelornpete

Mark, it takes a while for the temptation to cheat becomes strong enough to fall for it. Left to herself to end it could also take quite a while. Don't expect her to 'on her own' - or even with persuasion, etc., from others, to immediately stop what she is doing. That rarely happens, especially if its been going on for some time (merely a suspicion on my part). Her pride, if nothing else, is involved here, and pride is one of the most difficult things to overcome - especially if it is up to the person who's pride is involved. And that is difficult, if not sometimes impossible to overcome. 

May we assume that the friends she has involved in her plans to be unfaithful are not church friends? It may be that she might need new friends one day! 

As for the 'carrot & stick': what exactly is the 'stick' you are using? This is the portion of this stage in attacking the affair where you take the time to clean up your side of the street, giving her ample opportunity to see changes - all the while refusing to enable the affair. It is not something that you do for a couple of days. It is a lifestyle - something that should never end: you work as hard as you can to always do the right thing, and refuse to allow damaging behavior to hurt your marriage. Everyone should live their lives in the 'carrot & stick' pattern. In essence, it involves being moral and loving, and setting clearly defined boundaries. Why would anyone give up on being moral or loving - or give up on setting clear boundaries? 

Yes, do all you can possibly do! Are the results of this process telling you to do less than you can possibly do? 

Plan B is the step where you withdraw from contact with your spouse while they are refusing to change their behavior. You turn them loose to go their own way, but let them know that they are welcome to come back, once they are willing to stop this behavior and return to the marriage. But Plan B is usually ineffective unless you take enough time working on Plan A to let your spouse see the real changes in you, the real you, so to speak. Not the one who took part in damaging the marriage: the one who is willing to commit to it. The more time you can give yourself to let your spouse see this, the more they will miss it in Plan B.

There are no guarantees that things will necessarily go the way you want them to right now. But there is a right way and a wrong way to do everything, and choosing the right way ALWAYS works to your benefit in the end. Always. Even if reality turns out different than what you had expected.


----------



## marksaysay

Tanelornpete said:


> Mark, it takes a while for the temptation to cheat becomes strong enough to fall for it. Left to herself to end it could also take quite a while. Don't expect her to 'on her own' - or even with persuasion, etc., from others, to immediately stop what she is doing. That rarely happens, especially if its been going on for some time (merely a suspicion on my part). Her pride, if nothing else, is involved here, and pride is one of the most difficult things to overcome - especially if it is up to the person who's pride is involved. And that is difficult, if not sometimes impossible to overcome.
> 
> May we assume that the friends she has involved in her plans to be unfaithful are not church friends? It may be that she might need new friends one day!
> 
> As for the 'carrot & stick': what exactly is the 'stick' you are using? This is the portion of this stage in attacking the affair where you take the time to clean up your side of the street, giving her ample opportunity to see changes - all the while refusing to enable the affair. It is not something that you do for a couple of days. It is a lifestyle - something that should never end: you work as hard as you can to always do the right thing, and refuse to allow damaging behavior to hurt your marriage. Everyone should live their lives in the 'carrot & stick' pattern. In essence, it involves being moral and loving, and setting clearly defined boundaries. Why would anyone give up on being moral or loving - or give up on setting clear boundaries?
> 
> Yes, do all you can possibly do! Are the results of this process telling you to do less than you can possibly do?
> 
> Plan B is the step where you withdraw from contact with your spouse while they are refusing to change their behavior. You turn them loose to go their own way, but let them know that they are welcome to come back, once they are willing to stop this behavior and return to the marriage. But Plan B is usually ineffective unless you take enough time working on Plan A to let your spouse see the real changes in you, the real you, so to speak. Not the one who took part in damaging the marriage: the one who is willing to commit to it. The more time you can give yourself to let your spouse see this, the more they will miss it in Plan B.
> 
> There are no guarantees that things will necessarily go the way you want them to right now. But there is a right way and a wrong way to do everything, and choosing the right way ALWAYS works to your benefit in the end. Always. Even if reality turns out different than what you had expected.


I guess I may have been overly optimistic that my pastor would have had more of an impact on her. I now think back to the comparison of the drug addict being forced to go to rehab. It usually doesn't work unless they go themselves. The most painful part is watching her live in such a destructive manner. I fear for her safety due to her meeting these guys from a website. I fear that she will get into something that will cause her a great deal more hurt than what I may have caused her or even what I'm currently experiencing. Its so painful to watch and know there is absolutely nothing you can do. I will say that I dont agree with the previous posters comment about it not being a fog. My pastor said that he's felt from the beginning that her desire to divorce had very little to do with me and everything to do with somebody else. 

And no, the majority of her friends are all single and don't go to church. She definitely needs new friends. 

I am committed to making changes to who I am, regardlfessvof what happens. This alone will eventually benefit me as much if not more than this experience. I just feel so helplles. I do understand that this will take some time. I just hate seeing this and feeling like this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Affaircare

marksaysay said:


> ...The most painful part is watching her live in such a destructive manner. I fear for her safety due to her meeting these guys from a website. I fear that she will get into something that will cause her a great deal more hurt than what I may have caused her or even what I'm currently experiencing. Its so painful to watch and know there is absolutely nothing you can do. ...
> ...I just feel so helplles. I do understand that this will take some time. I just hate seeing this and feeling like this.


You have hit the nail RIGHT ON THE HEAD! One of the very hardest parts about being a Loyal Spouse is that you can see both the damage she's doing to herself and you can see how it could be fixed and repaired! YOU see it, she doesn't see it at all (or is denying it at least), and there is nothing you can do about it--except one thing. 

Remember, Marksaysay, that even if you two were to divorce and the marriage were to end that she will always be in God's Hands. He does not NEED you in order to guard her and watch over her, nor do you NEED to be in her life so God can work! I bet you can think of a hundred verses in the book of Psalms that talk about God knowing each one of us intimately and guarding us and guiding us, and one of the biggest lessons I learned during my divorce was to let go of my ex and not be so arrogant to assume that *I* had to be in my ex's life for God to work. He is almighty and surely able to be in her life whether you are there or not. HE will watch over her and protect her..and be perfectly just toward her too. Even though you would like to be the one protecting her, isn't it comforting to know that HE will never leave her or forsake her? If you can't be there or she pushes you away so that you aren't there, that does not mean that God leaves her. So take some comfort in that, and do continue to pray for her.


----------



## marksaysay

Affaircare said:


> You have hit the nail RIGHT ON THE HEAD! One of the very hardest parts about being a Loyal Spouse is that you can see both the damage she's doing to herself and you can see how it could be fixed and repaired! YOU see it, she doesn't see it at all (or is denying it at least), and there is nothing you can do about it--except one thing.
> 
> Remember, Marksaysay, that even if you two were to divorce and the marriage were to end that she will always be in God's Hands. He does not NEED you in order to guard her and watch over her, nor do you NEED to be in her life so God can work! I bet you can think of a hundred verses in the book of Psalms that talk about God knowing each one of us intimately and guarding us and guiding us, and one of the biggest lessons I learned during my divorce was to let go of my ex and not be so arrogant to assume that *I* had to be in my ex's life for God to work. He is almighty and surely able to be in her life whether you are there or not. HE will watch over her and protect her..and be perfectly just toward her too. Even though you would like to be the one protecting her, isn't it comforting to know that HE will never leave her or forsake her? If you can't be there or she pushes you away so that you aren't there, that does not mean that God leaves her. So take some comfort in that, and do continue to pray for her.


Thanks, Affaircare, for your words of comfort. It does help knowing that God is still with her. I do believe that he is but I also know that God does not force people to make certain choices. He gives them the chance to make up their own minds whether it be good or bad. I also know that since He is a just God, He will punish us for the sinful choices we make. I do believe that some of the reason for this situation is my many years of sinful activityand that it is one of the ways God is using to deal with me, to get me to wake up, see the errs of my ways and repent. Ultimately, I do not know completely that it will result in losing my wife and the family unit we have, but nonetheless it is painful. I also believe that He's using this as a way to get me to understand that I need to treat my wife much better than I had. Don't take my comments as excusing her behavior, but I'm just saying that there is so much that I can take from this situation. 

Also, it's not that I feel I have to be there for her to come out of this, but as a married couple tied to one another, I'm hurting because she's apart of me and is hurting. She obviously doesn't feel as though she's doing anything hurtful to herself, but that doesn't mean it's not happening. I hurt knowing that I can't do anything to change what she's doing. I hurt because the other part of me is living this way with no thought and care about how what she's doing will impact not only her but her entire family. I just doesn't feel good to have this hopeless and helpless feeling. But I KNOW that no situation is hopeless and helpless when God is involved.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Women need their men to be strong. They just do. Until you're ready to say 'quit or leave,' she'll continue to use you.


----------



## Deejo

marksaysay said:


> Update:
> Another question..she's so mad that I know so much about her activities through her cell phone records. She threatened that if i don't separate our accounts, that she would stop paying the bill and force me to suffer the consequences. Obviously, I don't want to have to pay nor can I afford to pay for her phone, but I also don't want to give her the ability to do what she wants without being noticed. What should I do?


If you are the account holder, just remove her. She can set up and pay for her own line. You shouldn't do a blessed thing.

At this point, you having access to her phone is immaterial. YOU KNOW she's cheating, and she plans on continuing the behavior. You CANNOT change this.

Which is why people stress establishing your own boundaries. If she is going to keep this crap up, do you really want to keep her under the same roof?


----------



## marksaysay

I have a dilemma that I need help with. It was suggested in another thread to contact the OM letting them no that you are the spouse of the person they've been speaking with or seeing and that you are not planning on simply laying down. I've wanted to do this but I didn't know if it would be the right thing to do. My problem is, because I couldn't afford to stay there alone, I moved out of our house and she has threatened to leave me with the house and my aprtment's responsibilities if I contact anyone. Obviously, I can't afford this but I think it would be so much of a wakeup call to her to see how serious I am about fighting for my family. What should I do?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## AFEH

Deejo said:


> If you are the account holder, just remove her. She can set up and pay for her own line. You shouldn't do a blessed thing.
> 
> At this point, you having access to her phone is immaterial. YOU KNOW she's cheating, and she plans on continuing the behavior. You CANNOT change this.
> 
> Which is why people stress establishing your own boundaries. If she is going to keep this crap up, do you really want to keep her under the same roof?


Deejo good Men like you are wasted on bad women.

Bob


----------



## AFEH

marksaysay said:


> i have a dilemma that i need help with. It was suggested in another thread to contact the om letting them no that you are the spouse of the person they've been speaking with or seeing and that you are not planning on simply laying down. I've wanted to do this but i didn't know if it would be the right thing to do. My problem is, because i couldn't afford to stay there alone, i moved out of our house and she has threatened to leave me with the house and my aprtment's responsibilities if i contact anyone. Obviously, i can't afford this but i think it would be so much of a wakeup call to her to see how serious i am about fighting for my family. What should i do?
> _posted via mobile device_


make yourself financially independent.


----------



## marksaysay

Deejo said:


> If you are the account holder, just remove her. She can set up and pay for her own line. You shouldn't do a blessed thing.
> 
> At this point, you having access to her phone is immaterial. YOU KNOW she's cheating, and she plans on continuing the behavior. You CANNOT change this.
> 
> Which is why people stress establishing your own boundaries. If she is going to keep this crap up, do you really want to keep her under the same roof?


First of all, we aren't under same roof. I moved out cause I couldn't afford to stay there alone. Secondly, I would almost seem to enable her even more by freeing her up in this manner.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## marksaysay

AFEH said:


> make yourself financially independent.


Please elaborate. I don't make alot of money while in school so there are limited possibilities right now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tanelornpete

> First of all, we aren't under same roof. I moved out cause I couldn't afford to stay there alone. Secondly, I would almost seem to enable her even more by freeing her up in this manner.


You would not be enabling her at all, unless you were paying the phone bill. Your objection is that you would not be able to_ control_ her actions as well if she had her own account. What she does with her own money is her own business, and she gives an account of that to God, not you. 

So cut off her phone, minimize your phone usage/minutes/costs and let her accept responsibility for her actions. 

Next: an affair has ramifications that you cannot escape - both of you are responsible for this: you overran one of her boundaries, she is cheating. The cost may well be the loss of this house and a hit to your credit. But what is more important: your credit rating or your marriage? 

You'll have to understand this with absolute clarity: if your credit reputation if more important than your marriage, then be honest, and take the steps NOW to fix the situation, before it gets worse. You'll take a hit on your credit in any divorce proceedings - you'll take it anyway if you are unable to keep up these payments. 

On the other hand, she is _counting_ on you keeping the house. That is enabling her affair in a HUGE way. She extorts the house from you via emotional blackmail, you let her live there, so your credit doesn't get ruined, and she gets to keep finding lovers. 

If you want to get through to her, you had better start doing things in an entirely different way. 

Hence, what Bob wrote: "make yourself financially independent." 

It may well be that you will have to quit school for a time until things calm down, and your life becomes manageable. If a divorce happens, you will be hit with more financial troubles than you can imagine. That in itself could end school for a while - you'll have to provide ALL for yourself, and very likely at least partial child support. 

Be realistic: you are trying to maintain everything while it falls apart. There's a great analogy: in one of my favorite movies, the entire population of an island are so convinced that they are OK that they refuse to notice that their island is sinking. Instead, they gather around their king, singing a song about how wonderful their lives are, until the island sinks and all that you see is bubbles as they continue singing. 

You are going to have to make some changes, very quickly.


----------



## turnera

marksaysay said:


> I have a dilemma that I need help with. It was suggested in another thread to contact the OM letting them no that you are the spouse of the person they've been speaking with or seeing and that you are not planning on simply laying down. I've wanted to do this but I didn't know if it would be the right thing to do. My problem is, because I couldn't afford to stay there alone, I moved out of our house and *she has threatened to leave me with the house and my aprtment's responsibilities if I contact anyone*. Obviously, I can't afford this but I think it would be so much of a wakeup call to her to see how serious I am about fighting for my family. What should I do?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Huh?

She is extorting you and you're wondering what you should do?

First, if she TELLS you you'd better not tell, or else, that is the ONE thing you have to be SURE to do - she's threatening you because she is AFRAID of you telling. That means that you telling is the ONE thing that will harm her affair.

So TELL.

Second, why on earth would you let her control YOU like this? Time to grow a pair.

Remember, your marriage can survive her anger; it CAN'T survive another man.


----------



## marksaysay

Tanelornpete and Tunera, thanks for your brutal honesty. Your responses were very forthright and direct. I guess, as you put it, I did put my credit rating ahead of my marriage and I was afraid of pissing her off. But if she wasn't already, we wouldn't be here now, would we. It made me feel better, also, after talking with our realtor to find out what options were available if she were to follow through with her threat. She assured me that the any really negative consequences wouldn't happen until a minimum of 6 months had past, so that really took away my skepticism about moving forward with making those calls. I have never been one to just lay down and accept defeat so why should I start now. I'm gonna go out, if I go out, with guns blazing. I'm gonna make sure I've done everything possible. Please understand that I'm not unmindful that taking these steps may be fruitless, but either I try to do something or I do absolutely nothing. Doing nothing is not an option. I guess I really do have a pair. Also, how can I earn any respect from her by giving in to her intimidation. I can't and I won't.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## the guy

My thinking is, if she is so active in being with OM's and web site stuff, and hanging out with single friend will she really have the time to screwing you over? Secondly, she kepts telling you that you will suffer the consequences, well granted you will, but won't you both feel the consequences?
I believe she will and if you play our cards right you may come out looking like the stronger guy, so take the hits, you will one way or another. Take the hit and this will let her know that the whole "consequence" thing won't work and she (hopefully) stop playing that consequence card. At the very least you will look more confident in... "I can handle this and screw you", kind of thing.
I can't imagin loosing every thing but she will lose too( I think). Some times we/her have to hit rock bottom befor we can pick our selves up. Is there a verse for that

Good luck Mark, it looks like your between a rock and a hard place, just dont let her know that. You will find a way and you will figure this out with out her threatening you all the time, that bs. Got out from under that.


----------



## marksaysay

the guy said:


> ....if you play our cards right you may come out looking like the stronger guy, so take the hits, you will one way or another. Take the hit and this will let her know that the whole "consequence" thing won't work and she (hopefully) stop playing that consequence card. At the very least you will look more confident in... "I can handle this and screw you", kind of thing.
> I can't imagin loosing every thing but she will lose too( I think). Some times we/her have to hit rock bottom befor we can pick our selves up. Is there a verse for that


Not only do I think I will come out looking like the stronger guy, but I will take back my dignity even if I don't get my wife back. I thought about it and I'm not gonna sit back and let her bully me into letting her do whatever she wants, especially in MY house. Her name is not even on the loan for the house because of her past credit history. I think, that at some point, it will cause her to look back and understand just how strong I am, and it might just be too late when she comes to that realization. It will begin tomorrow with a call to our cell phone provider to split our accounts. Then I will make the calls. I'm ok with losing my wife and/or home if it means maintaining my dignity and self-respect.


----------



## turnera

Great plan. Just remember, women want men who are dangerous, strong, provocative. The more you show her you won't accept crap, the more appealing you become. Good luck!


----------



## AFEH

marksaysay said:


> Please elaborate. I don't make alot of money while in school so there are limited possibilities right now.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Why not move back into your home. When there ask your wife to do the right thing and move out. Rent out a room in your home to help with the mortgage and sublet the apartment if you can’t get out of the lease.

Or else stay in the apartment and rent your house out.

Bob


----------



## marksaysay

AFEH said:


> Why not move back into your home. When there ask your wife to do the right thing and move out. Rent out a room in your home to help with the mortgage and sublet the apartment if you can’t get out of the lease.
> 
> Or else stay in the apartment and rent your house out.
> 
> Bob


Sounds like a good idea. Im gonna start searching now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## marksaysay

marksaysay said:


> Sounds like a good idea. Im gonna start searching now.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She got furious that I made the phone calls. Told me I could take care of the house. Im cool with that. I couldn't take her cheating on me in my own house. Says her dad will be coming on Saturday for what I don't know. I'm. Not really worried about that. I get my house back. Whatever happens after that happens.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## marksaysay

marksaysay said:


> She got furious that I made the phone calls. Told me I could take care of the house. Im cool with that. I couldn't take her cheating on me in my own house. Says her dad will be coming on Saturday for what I don't know. I'm. Not really worried about that. I get my house back. Whatever happens after that happens.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


While I am still not for certain that its all over, I'm extremely worried about her because she says that regardless of what our pastor says and what the bible teaches, she's gonna do what she wants any way. Our pastor asked about the guys she's been talking to and she says they are just meeting her emotional needs. He told her that regardless of whether or not she wants to be married, she still is and that's not right. She told him she would stop but told me she wasn't going to. I will continue to the next phase.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

What phone calls? Are you talking about exposure?

What happened? You moved back home?


----------



## marksaysay

turnera said:


> What phone calls? Are you talking about exposure?
> 
> What happened? You moved back home?


Yes I made calls and she's mad mad mad. Said she would be moving out next week and that I could have the house. Funny thing is her father and step-mom are on my side and she doesn't know it. She's still texting me today in an uproar. Is it good for her to be this mad? 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Oh, VERY expected. Don't get drawn into it. Just reply "I'm trying to save my marriage" and leave it at that.

She's going to say all kinds of things, like 'I was going to choose you but now you've ruined it' or 'you ruined my reputation' (uh, no, wouldn't that be YOU?) or 'that's it - I'm divorcing you NOW'...

Just ignore it. Your marriage can survive her anger, it can't survive another man.


----------



## turnera

Did you move back home?


----------



## Wolf359

I still like this one, If she starts going crazy pull out a bag of cookies and offer her one. My sister used to do this with me when I was being a little s**t. :smthumbup:


----------



## marksaysay

I got served the divorce papers today and I'm beginning to think that it really is over. My wife told her dad that my making the phone calls a few days ago is really what did it for her. But as I think now about it, wasn't it already over? I know that the papers don't really have to be signed right away and that I still have a little time but she just seems so comfortable and at peace with this. I did find out something that was troubling and encouraging all at once. She told me she called the OM to give him a heads up that I would be calling (she knew because I'd call yet another guy who called her) because the people she wanted in her life needed to be warned. Understand that she's been talking to several different guys and I called them all. It was troubling because this revealed an emotional connection but encouraging because she later tried to say there wasn't a connection, continuing with the lies and increasing my suspicion of the 'fog'. Maybe I'm holding on to a sense of false hope or maybe I'm not. 

As my next step is the carrot and stick, I've studied all the information and have a much better idea of who I am and where mistakes were made. I guess my question is how do I carry this out in a way where she might notice or am I looking at in in the wrong perspective. Obviously, my desire at this point is to save my marriage but I also am aware that the changes I make will have great benefits in the long run for me. I do want to move on and get on with my life but I am so emotionally messed up. Some days are good but others are not so good. I just want this all to be over. I know that if our relationship was to change for the better, it's gonna take time. I just have to learn to put her out of my mind, focus on my faith and myself and press on. It's just easier said than done.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## notreadytoquit

turnera said:


> Oh, VERY expected. Don't get drawn into it. Just reply "I'm trying to save my marriage" and leave it at that.
> 
> She's going to say all kinds of things, like 'I was going to choose you but now you've ruined it' or 'you ruined my reputation' (uh, no, wouldn't that be YOU?) or 'that's it - I'm divorcing you NOW'...
> 
> Just ignore it. Your marriage can survive her anger, it can't survive another man.


Mark, my now Ex H asked for divorce less than a month after I busted him in front of the restaurant and about 2 weeks after I disclosed the affair to HIS family and close friends. He never said that he did it because I was talking to people, in fact he did not say anything an refused separation flat out(which is what I was going for if I had a choice). 

It can go either way, the WS will be angry no matter what.


----------



## Tanelornpete

When an affair is exposed, it is no longer hidden. It loses it's secretive allure, and the cheating spouse is left with the choice of backing down from the affair or choosing to pursue it with some vigor. 

Often they will file divorce papers - this is a reaction done out of anger (hence they are usually rushed.) However, it is to your benefit to postpone playing this game as long as possible - to allow the anger to cool, and reason to set in. Mark, this is especially true in your case, since your wife's cheating involves online 'short' encounters - almost none of which will result in any significant relationships (and almost all lead to disaster, disappointment and loss.) 

Don't sign any papers - dispute any claims, etc. Make this as long and drawn out as possible. All of that will give you ample time to back away from the overwhelming desire you have to arrange your wife's life and instead turn yours in the direction it should be going.

You no longer need consider exposing the affair. It's out in the open - your wife is trying to get you to release her from the marriage so that her choices will seem more moral (in reality they would be no more moral if she were single, would they?) Your church has some work to do - and so do you. It's time to concentrate on that instead. Don't try to deliberately do things so that she will 'notice' - you'd be much better served if she stumbled across the truth on her own. 

In the meantime, your life will be heading in the right direction, which is by far more important.


----------



## marksaysay

Tanelornpete said:


> When an affair is exposed, it is no longer hidden. It loses it's secretive allure, and the cheating spouse is left with the choice of backing down from the affair or choosing to pursue it with some vigor.
> 
> Often they will file divorce papers - this is a reaction done out of anger (hence they are usually rushed.) However, it is to your benefit to postpone playing this game as long as possible - to allow the anger to cool, and reason to set in. Mark, this is especially true in your case, since your wife's cheating involves online 'short' encounters - almost none of which will result in any significant relationships (and almost all lead to disaster, disappointment and loss.)
> I guess I may have been overly optimistic that my pastor would have had more of an impact on her. I now think back to the comparison of the drug addict being forced to go to rehab. It usually doesn't work unless they go themselves. The most painful part is watching her live in such a destructive manner. I fear for her safety due to her meeting these guys from a website. I fear that she will get into something that will cause her a great deal more hurt than what I may have caused her or even what I'm currently experiencing. Its so painful to watch and know there is absolutely nothing you can do. I will say that I dont agree with the previous posters comment about it not being a fog. My pastor said that he's felt from the beginning that her desire to divorce had very little to do with me and everything to do with somebody else. Don't sign any papers - dispute any claims, etc. Make this as long and drawn out as possible. All of that will give you ample time to back away from the overwhelming desire you have to arrange your wife's life and instead turn yours in the direction it should be going.
> 
> You no longer need consider exposing the affair. It's out in the open - your wife is trying to get you to release her from the marriage so that her choices will seem more moral (in reality they would be no more moral if she were single, would they?) Your church has some work to do - and so do you. It's time to concentrate on that instead. Don't try to deliberately do things so that she will 'notice' - you'd be much better served if she stumbled across the truth on her own.
> 
> In the meantime, your life will be heading in the right direction, which is by far more important.


She says that it was not a decision made in haste but that she's been considering it for years. She had brought it up before in years past but things always seemed to get back on track. While I will say that I've never really met all of her expectations, I have changed a lot of the things ive done. It just always seemed that if I made a concession, it was never enough. She would always find a way to find something wrong with what I've done. Obviously, she has her issues that will have to be addressed if reconciliation were to take place, but I still love her, flaws and all. I don't know what tomorrow will bring as far as my emotions, but I know that I've got to do something different. I like your reply regarding her 'stumbling across' my changes as I've been so focused on getting her back that I'd lost the overall idea of the carrot and stick, which is getting myself to a place where I know I should be, creating some lasting changes. I will and I must. 

About the divorce process, how long do I have before I have to sign? When do we have to go to court? Can I tell the judge I don't want this? Will they make us go to counseling? I want to fight this all the way to the end. If this is really what she wants, I want ho make her earn it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## iamnottheonlyone

You did fine. You don't want to end up looking like the bad guy here. Since you revealed her secret people know the truth and she will be unlikely to convince anyone otherwise. We have seen this work over the last several months. I hasn't worked for me. But our friends came out strong to support me. You are likely to see the same result. I would have never imagined how great my friends and family could be. Shame and stubborness pay prevent her from ever returning but you have moved the process along and improved your chances of recovery.


----------



## 827Aug

iamnottheonlyone said:


> You did fine. You don't want to end up looking like the bad guy here. Since you revealed her secret people know the truth and she will be unlikely to convince anyone otherwise. We have seen this work over the last several months. I hasn't worked for me. But our friends came out strong to support me. You are likely to see the same result. I would have never imagined how great my friends and family could be. Shame and stubborness pay prevent her from ever returning but you have moved the process along and improved your chances of recovery.


Well put! I've had the same experience also regarding friends, family and acquaintances. It's been comforting to know that these people don't condone my estranged husband's behavior either. I believe marksaysay will benefit from this too.


----------



## marksaysay

827Aug said:


> Well put! I've had the same experience also regarding friends, family and acquaintances. It's been comforting to know that these people don't condone my estranged husband's behavior either. I believe marksaysay will benefit from this too.


Already has the support I've received been overwhelming. Oddly enough, some has even come from her family. Some of her family even feel like me in that she'll get tired and want to come back at some point. While, at this point, this is a great desire of mine, I don't know just how receptive I will be when that happen. On another note, my daughter and I have had the best time we've had in along time over the last 5 days she's been staying with me. I'd not taking much time over the years to enjoy her as I should and it's been great. This, I believe is part of the change that has needed to take place and I'm loving it. In the back of my mind, though, it would be nice if her mother could see it. I'll continue on and pray that our family can remain intact but I will also continue to change. God knows I need to.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

It'll be worth it to consult with an attorney if you want to postpone the divorce.


----------



## marksaysay

My wife's dad came over this weekend and told me that if my desire was to fight for my marriage, i was going about it the wrong way. He was referencing the phone calls I'd made to the OM earlier in the week. That really made her mad and she quickly called her dad. I told him about some of the things she had been doing, and he said that without proof, it is only speculation. I then looked him in the eyes and told him firmly that I have proof. He was quiet and didn't say much after that continuing to try to support her. While I regret it now, i should have pulled out my proof to show him right then and there but I didn't really want to put things out there like that. Obviously, she has made me seem like the bad guy, as you all said she would. My question to you all is, since he doesn't seem to believe me, should I send him proof so that he can have a clear understanding of what I've been talking about? Without it, I don't think he will ever address her in the manner necessary to get her to wake up....


----------



## Tanelornpete

> My question to you all is, since he doesn't seem to believe me, should I send him proof so that he can have a clear understanding of what I've been talking about? Without it, I don't think he will ever address her in the manner necessary to get her to wake up....


It is entirely possible that even _with_ proof, he would choose not to take any action on your behalf. It is his daughter he is talking about, and he may either not know how to deal with this sort of problem, may want to avoid it, or may simply be one of those who would support their own child, regardless of behavior.

Moreover, even if he did talk to her, who is to say that this would 'wake her up'? She has already chosen to ignore everyone else! My guess is that she is very good at playing daddy (what daughter isn't?) If you do give him the proof, which is entirely within your rights, please understand that what he does with it is his choice, and the outcome is not in your hands at all. 

Unless she has a change of heart - unless she is moved to change, she will not. I'm not saying this is a bad idea (giving her dad proof - I would definitely do it!) - but I did want to point out that there are no guarantees in anything we try to do. It's simply one more try to get through to her - a way of telling her you've tried and tried.


----------



## marksaysay

Tanelornpete said:


> It is entirely possible that even _with_ proof, he would choose not to take any action on your behalf. It is his daughter he is talking about, and he may either not know how to deal with this sort of problem, may want to avoid it, or may simply be one of those who would support their own child, regardless of behavior.
> 
> Moreover, even if he did talk to her, who is to say that this would 'wake her up'? She has already chosen to ignore everyone else! My guess is that she is very good at playing daddy (what daughter isn't?) If you do give him the proof, which is entirely within your rights, please understand that what he does with it is his choice, and the outcome is not in your hands at all.
> 
> Unless she has a change of heart - unless she is moved to change, she will not. I'm not saying this is a bad idea (giving her dad proof - I would definitely do it!) - but I did want to point out that there are no guarantees in anything we try to do. It's simply one more try to get through to her - a way of telling her you've tried and tried.


I'm fully aware of the facts that he may still choose to do nothing and that she may still, even if he says something, choose to continue. When he left, I just felt he thought I was either stretching the truth or simply making it up. He even, in talking to our pastor, whom he knows pretty well made excuses for her, mainly, I believe, because he only got a one-sided story from her. It may not turn out the way I hope, but I know, having been a part of this family for the last 11 years, that her dad has great influence in her. If he knew jus half of what I know, I believe he'd blow a gasket. I just really want him to understand the full magnitude of what I've been dealing with. I don't believe that her mother's knowledge of the 'evidence' will have as much affect on her since they've had such a rocky relationship, but her and her dad are different. I think I will put the package together tomorrow and send. What can it hurt? I already look like the bad guy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tanelornpete

I've run into so many parents who will chose their child's side, regardless of the morality of the situation. It's unfortunate - but it could also be the one person to whom she might listen. One can only hope!


----------



## Affaircare

I think I agree with the idea of putting the package of "proof" together and showing her father the full extent, as long as you are crystal clear that he may choose to do nothing or may choose her side precisely because she is his daughter. 

I can testify that when I showed my M-I-L my proof (ex's hotel receipt when I'd never been there, lingerie that wasn't mine that was left there, video of them going IN the night before and OUT the day after, and email about "celebrating his birthday") that she said right out loud that she wouldn't get involved. And she never, ever did say one word to him that leaving his family for a mistress was wrong either. I won't kid you -- that hurt! But it's what it was.


----------



## AFEH

marksaysay said:


> My wife's dad came over this weekend and told me that if my desire was to fight for my marriage, i was going about it the wrong way. He was referencing the phone calls I'd made to the OM earlier in the week. That really made her mad and she quickly called her dad. I told him about some of the things she had been doing, and he said that without proof, it is only speculation. I then looked him in the eyes and told him firmly that I have proof. He was quiet and didn't say much after that continuing to try to support her. While I regret it now, i should have pulled out my proof to show him right then and there but I didn't really want to put things out there like that. Obviously, she has made me seem like the bad guy, as you all said she would. My question to you all is, since he doesn't seem to believe me, should I send him proof so that he can have a clear understanding of what I've been talking about? Without it, I don't think he will ever address her in the manner necessary to get her to wake up....


Mark, it is a father’s duty to stand by their daughter hence he could not just take your word. He will hopefully more likely still stand by her even if he does have all the information.

But your credibility and integrity and your resulting self-esteem and self-respect is exceptionally important to you. So to maintain those priceless values send him the information. But do it with compassion thinking of the impact it may well have on her father. Because his most fundamental beliefs about his daughter may seriously be deeply hurt by her actions.

And her father will step in and try and help his daughter. That may or may not result in her returning to you. But at least she will get some help from a person she loves and respects.

In the 180 they recommend NOT involving the spouses family for this very reason, that they will "gang up" against the LS. See http://talkaboutmarriage.com/self-help-marriage-relationship-programs/18671-180.html.

Bob


----------



## turnera

I would show it to him. Tell him you know you can't expect him to side with you, but as her father, you have hopes that he could at least say something to her about the path she's on, for her OWN sake. Tell him you admire him, and you know she does, too, and that's why you hope he will step in as her father and comment about the choices she's making.


----------



## notreadytoquit

Mark, here is what happened in my case:

My ex MIL refuses to this day to see the actual evidence of my ex H affair. His brother saw some of the emails and he knows all that is true. Yet my BIL and SIL have not called once since April to even ask how I or the child are doing. At one occasion my MIL tried to convince me that ex H was not making calls to the OW during our son's bday party at her house. Then I pulled out the cell phone records and showed her the phone call. She did not say anything. She now occasionally calls to ask how grandson(not me) is doing. She is the only close family my son has from his dad's side here in Canada(ex H and BIL are in the US) yet she has not even made the effort to come and see where her grandson is living. She is now even spreading lies that I have been seeing this man since I came back to Canada(news to me) and that it did not cost me anything to restart my life here(how arrogant to even make a comment like that).

I am still debating what to do with the rest of the evidence I have. I know now it won't make a difference but I still wanted to send a package to her and to my ex BIL. I feel they deserve to know the truth, no matter that my ex H chose a different path.


----------



## AFEH

notreadytoquit said:


> Mark, here is what happened in my case:
> 
> My ex MIL refuses to this day to see the actual evidence of my ex H affair. His brother saw some of the emails and he knows all that is true. Yet my BIL and SIL have not called once since April to even ask how I or the child are doing. At one occasion my MIL tried to convince me that ex H was not making calls to the OW during our son's bday party at her house. Then I pulled out the cell phone records and showed her the phone call. She did not say anything. She now occasionally calls to ask how grandson(not me) is doing. She is the only close family my son has from his dad's side here in Canada(ex H and BIL are in the US) yet she has not even made the effort to come and see where her grandson is living. She is now even spreading lies that I have been seeing this man since I came back to Canada(news to me) and that it did not cost me anything to restart my life here(how arrogant to even make a comment like that).
> 
> I am still debating what to do with the rest of the evidence I have. I know now it won't make a difference but I still wanted to send a package to her and to my ex BIL. I feel they deserve to know the truth, no matter that my ex H chose a different path.


Yup. It's called "Family Loyalty". Sometimes it goes exceedingly deep in spite of any “evidence” of a wrong doing. That’s quite simply ignored, or not seen as a wrong doing, in the most seemingly irrational way.

Family Loyalty is probably one of the most subjective, irrational, unpredictable things on the planet and there’s no telling which way it will go or what the outcome will be. Most especially while a daughter is looking seriously distressed and crying in front of her father about “look what he did to me” no matter what the truth of it.

It will be interesting to see which way it goes.

Mark I truly wish you all the best. I hope it goes good for you.

Bob


----------



## marksaysay

AFEH said:


> Yup. It's called "Family Loyalty". Sometimes it goes exceedingly deep in spite of any “evidence” of a wrong doing. That’s quite simply ignored, or not seen as a wrong doing, in the most seemingly irrational way.
> 
> Family Loyalty is probably one of the most subjective, irrational, unpredictable things on the planet and there’s no telling which way it will go or what the outcome will be. Most especially while a daughter is looking seriously distressed and crying in front of her father about “look what he did to me” no matter what the truth of it.
> 
> It will be interesting to see which way it goes.
> 
> Mark I truly wish you all the best. I hope it goes good for you.
> 
> Bob


My fil's wife of 30 years, who has been my confidant throughout all this, says it would be useless to disclose anything to him. She says he has always been somewhat of an advocate of wrong by teaching that it's not wrong unless you get caught. She also said that he'd been unfaithful to her before so him saying anything to his daughter would serve to also condemn his actions and he doesn't want to do that. I'm still leaning towards sending the info anyway for my own sanity and credibility. Do I think anything will happen as a result of it? Probably not, but it would do wonders for me knowing that I've not withheld anything.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## AFEH

marksaysay said:


> My fil's wife of 30 years, who has been my confidant throughout all this, says it would be useless to disclose anything to him. She says he has always been somewhat of an advocate of wrong by teaching that it's not wrong unless you get caught. She also said that he'd been unfaithful to her before so him saying anything to his daughter would serve to also condemn his actions and he doesn't want to do that. I'm still leaning towards sending the info anyway for my own sanity and credibility. Do I think anything will happen as a result of it? Probably not, but it would do wonders for me knowing that I've not withheld anything.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well coincidentally Mark that’s what my wife was taught by her father. It sucks. Maybe you should have listened to her mother, they are wise in these things. Now your FIL can hardly “moralise” with his daughter, can he. It’s a true can of worms. But I still hope it works out ok for you.

My wife had an affair when our sons were very young. No one knew about it in my wife’s family or my family. If I’d told my family my wife could certainly not have gone back into my family when we returned to the UK from an overseas contract, she would have been far too ashamed. And that would have meant none of my family especially my mother who loved her deeply would have enjoyed my wife’s company like they did for the next few decades. My family still don’t know about my wife’s affair even though we’re separated now and will never hear it from me. They have their memories of her and I’m not going to spoil those.

Thirty years on my two sons still don’t know about my wife’s affair and they never will from me even though I told my eldest son about mine when he asked me one time a while back if I’d ever had an affair. He’s response was “I thought so dad”. I did tell him that it was over 30 years ago and I knew I’d made a big mistake. He didn’t think any less of me as he’s a man of the world. He thought more of me because he got my honesty even though it could have been detrimental to myself. I just don’t lie. It’s one of my N.U.T.s.

I believe an affair is an exceedingly private thing. And it’s far better to take the high road when discovered and keep it private as much as possible. I think if it’s kept private there’s a far better chance of a reconciliation and a “coming back into” the extended family fold.

Bob


----------



## marksaysay

AFEH said:


> Well coincidentally Mark that’s what my wife was taught by her father. It sucks. Maybe you should have listened to her mother, they are wise in these things. Now your FIL can hardly “moralise” with his daughter, can he. It’s a true can of worms. But I still hope it works out ok for you.
> 
> My wife had an affair when our sons were very young. No one knew about it in my wife’s family or my family. If I’d told my family my wife could certainly not have gone back into my family when we returned to the UK from an overseas contract, she would have been far too ashamed. And that would have meant none of my family especially my mother who loved her deeply would have enjoyed my wife’s company like they did for the next few decades. My family still don’t know about my wife’s affair even though we’re separated now and will never hear it from me. They have their memories of her and I’m not going to spoil those.
> 
> Thirty years on my two sons still don’t know about my wife’s affair and they never will from me even though I told my eldest son about mine when he asked me one time a while back if I’d ever had an affair. He’s response was “I thought so dad”. I did tell him that it was over 30 years ago and I knew I’d made a big mistake. He didn’t think any less of me as he’s a man of the world. He thought more of me because he got my honesty even though it could have been detrimental to myself. I just don’t lie. It’s one of my N.U.T.s.
> 
> I believe an affair is an exceedingly private thing. And it’s far better to take the high road when discovered and keep it private as much as possible. I think if it’s kept private there’s a far better chance of a reconciliation and a “coming back into” the extended family fold.
> 
> Bob


Still debating on sending FIL the proof I have since I know it won't do any good. But yesterday, wife called saying she wanted to talk. It was about the required parenting class for those divorcing with children. She said she'd gone and wanted to agree on what we'll do as far as our daughter is concerned. She said she no longer wanted to argue and that she'd put aside much of her anger for our daughter. As she talked, she seemed so content with her decision to move on. I know I'm not supposed to be so concerned about getting her back at this point, but seeing her discuss this in such a calm manner really makes me doubt a reconciliation is possible. She talked about us both still being present at her events and about having 'family' dinners with just the three of us. She said that I shouldn't misconstrue her message by thinking that she still loved me. This was all for our daughter's sake. I didn't say anything afterward. I just kissed my daughter and left. 

I took a few things from this: she is either highly consumed by this fog or she really just wants to move on, I don't know which. I do know that the arrangements she discussed will give me the chances to show her my changes upfront. I still haven't signed the papers yet as I plan to drag this on as long as I can. I do know a guy from the dating website whom she had gotten somewhat attached to told her to lose his information as he thought she was divorced. Its funny because she finally filed almost a month after she said she had already done so, but it was only after someone she was involved with found out the truth and bailed. Another lie emerges as she stated she was upfront with him and had told him she was still married but separated. She is still chatting with all kinds of guys through this website. I didn't say anything to her but I so want this to work out. Her 'act', if that's what it is, is pretty convincing but everything in me says to not lose hope.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## notreadytoquit

My ex H also acted like your wife. He seemed very calm almost happy that the divorce was coming. I did not know whether it was very deep fog or he had already moved on emotionally. It's very tough and painful. He still acts like that as if nothing happened between us. 

He just asked me this morning on Skype(he talks to son 3 x a week on skype) if WE needed anything from the US for him to bring this weekend. I never ask for anything for myself I just asked him to bring some special yogurt our son likes that Icannot find here.


----------



## AFEH

marksaysay said:


> She talked about us both still being present at her events and about having 'family' dinners with just the three of us. She said that I shouldn't misconstrue her message by thinking that she still loved me. This was all for our daughter's sake.


Mark, I read that as she wants to keep one foot in your camp as a just In case, a full back. I’d say no to the “family dinners” (think about it, what a joke that is) and I wouldn’t be there with her at any child’s events. I’d do that alternately.

“Do anything you want, don’t get caught” is no way to bring up a child.

Through learned values, beliefs, morality (lack of it), conscience (lack of it), empathy (lack of it) and subsequent behaviour from her father you may well have a promiscuous wife on your hands. She’s certainly being promiscuous with the number of contacts she has going with men at any one time and may well be running multiple EAs. If she is that’s probably one step away from simultaneous PAs. 

It certainly sounds like it with all the contacts with men she has running simultaneously. Pity she couldn’t learn something about having a decent morality and conscience from the good men who broke contact as soon as they discovered she’s married.

I suggest not worrying about the fil. No way to you need to demonstrate your credibility and integrity with a man who lives by the belief “Do anything you want, don’t get caught”. I don’t reckon it would make any difference even if you did.

She is not in a “fog”. She's planned her campaign exceptionally well.

Bob


----------



## notreadytoquit

That's the thing AFEH, how do you distinguish the fog from the premeditated well planned divorced by the WS?


----------



## AFEH

notreadytoquit said:


> That's the thing AFEH, how do you distinguish the fog from the premeditated well planned divorced by the WS?


I’m no MC. I’m a guy who’s 61 and was with my wife for 42 years. In 42 years, 4 decades, a heck of a lot can happen. And it did, good and bad, sad and joyful. I was really fortunate, blessed in that my marriage was around 90% good. I was passionately in love and totally committed for 42 years. In all that time I’ve witnessed my extended family’s marriages and my friends marriages. Some of the stuff I’ve seen happen beggars belief. Three blokes, single mates. Got a couple as a friends. Go round to their house for a dinner, game of cards having deliberately set out to get the husband drunk so that one of them can have sex with his wife while the husband is asleep on the couch. When I found out it’d been happening for 6 months. It beggars belief.

I’ve seen a spouse really unhappy and dissatisfied in their marriage plan to get out of it. There’s no talking about the problems, they plan and make a strategy to get out. They are not brave enough or whatever is needed to declare the marriage over, walk away and get a divorce. They actually start looking for their next marriage partner while they’re still in their current marriage. When this person’s affair is discovered no way are they in a “fog”. Their whole strategy has been rationally and objectively thought out. That’s not a “fog”. That is crystal clear thinking and planning.

I believe that everyone who has an affair, EA or PA but doesn’t want out of the marriage knows full well that what they are doing is wrong. They know that. They also know that they are being secretive, deceptive and lying in order to hide what they are doing because they know it is wrong. They are seriously very conscious of what they are doing. That is not a “fog”. That is crystal clear thinking.




What neither of those two types know is the consequences of what they are doing. They haven’t got a clue of what the consequences will be when their affair is discovered. That’s one of the fundamental reasons why I like the 180 from Divorce Busters. It initiates those consequences at the earliest possible opportunity.




I see the “affair fog” as a person being “in love” with a person other than their spouse. That’s all it is to me. All the blaming, denials, further deceits and lies that come after the affair is discovered are there from the DS not because they are in a “fog” it’s because they are “in love” and totally unable to accept responsibility for their behaviour. And of course to continue the affair if that is what they want to do.




In either case, a DS who has deliberately planned to get out of a marriage or a DS who made no plans to get out of the marriage then I think the only measurement that the loyal spouse can go by is the amount of remorse the DS demonstrates once discovered.

To fake remorse takes probably an Oscar winning film star. Remorse, when faked is obviously faked. If there is no heart felt remorse that means they don’t have empathy for another human being, let alone their LS. There is a word for a person without empathy which I wont use here. And those people are best let go of.




It is in my mind very difficult to know if the DS deliberately planned to get out of the marriage or they didn’t deliberately plan to get out of the marriage. Unless of course they tell you which would take a great deal of openness and honesty and therefore I think it highly unlikely. You could look back for “signs”. Was a secretive savings account opened before any affair started? That sort of thing. But who’s going to know exact dates of when the affair started etc.?

I think the biggest single thing with either type of DS when the DS wants back into their marriage with the LS is the amount of remorse they demonstrate for the pain they have caused the LS. Without that heart felt remorse due to the suffering they caused another human being they are far more likely to continue secretly in the original affair or start up another somewhere down the line.

Bob


----------



## notreadytoquit

Very well written, I think my DS was one of those who preplanned everything since I never got any real explanations as to why the affair even happened. It's sort of hard to work on oneself when you only try to "guess" what might be broken.

BTW send me in a private message the word you use for people with no empathy. I am curious to see which one you use.


----------



## AFEH

notreadytoquit said:


> Very well written, I think my DS was one of those who preplanned everything since I never got any real explanations as to why the affair even happened. It's sort of hard to work on oneself when you only try to "guess" what might be broken.
> 
> BTW send me in a private message the word you use for people with no empathy. I am curious to see which one you use.


If you Google “no empathy” and Personality Disorders you will see a number of PDs where no empathy is one of the criteria.

Bob


----------



## Tanelornpete

There isn't really ever a way to know if reconciliation is possible. The key is to go ahead as if it might happen, and do things with all honesty and sincerity ("...do all things in love...") 

One thing to keep in mind is this: in this case (and in notready's case) - the disloyal spouse may well have been planning on divorce (that is a very popular way of running from problems - in the mistaken belief that what is out there is better). The problem is not that - the problem is the infidelity that is occurring _right now_. A person who cheats and leaves their spouse is not heading in a good direction - it will lead to eventual failure or disaster in some form or other. A married spouse has no right, no moral authority, no ethical reason - to cheat, _ever_. They have made a commitment that only divorce ends. Until that divorce ends the marriage, cheating is wrong, period - every time it is done, every way it is done. After the divorce: it is no longer cheating (it is another class of action all together.)

And the fog which confuses people so much in discussion is not an issue with a divorce. It is an issue with infidelity: it is the justification of cheating which involves manipulating, disguising or discrediting known moral standards. It may well involve, or lead up to, the decision to end the marriage - but that is a symptom of the symptom, so to speak - not the problem itself. 

Here is some distorted thinking, however: 



> She talked about us both still being present at her events and about having 'family' dinners with just the three of us.


This won't happen. In an affair situation, the wayward spouse always thinks that things are going to end up rosy and everyone will be happy: they get the home, the cash, the cars, all the good stuff, their old spouse will fade into the woodwork and show up for all the fun times; life will be peachy! Reality: she is going to lose her daughter half of the time, there will be no dinners with the three of you (how about the four of you whenever she has a new boyfriend?

Notready remarked:



> It's sort of hard to work on oneself when you only try to "guess" what might be broken.


Actually, it is not at all. Its quite easy to work on one's self. The difficulty you are thinking of is in finding some way to manipulate the environment so that your spouse will come back: 'if only I did "X", then "Y" would happen.' 

Changing in order to get your spouse back is not a good reason to change: changing in order to become a more moral, stronger, healthier person is much more important. Your cheating spouse may recognize some change and even come to the realization that this is what they want, but that should never be the reason to change! 

Side note: of course, you do need to know what a strong, healthy, moral person IS, in order to aim at that!


----------



## notreadytoquit

TP, what I meant to say was that if let's say I was doing X,Y,Z thing not even realizing they somehow hurt my ex H, I would like to know what those things are so I don't do them not just to him but to other people as well. I am not trying to change myself so he comes back to me but to avoid any sort of damaging behaviour for my next relationship. Sometimes we are not even aware that we are doing things that may hurt other people.


----------



## Tanelornpete

That's true, Notready - and for many people, all that they have to go on in reference to their behavior is what others think of them. This is unfortunate, but true - especially in a society that places happiness as the only (or at least, most important) goal of humans. 

I believe there are standards of behavior that can be worked at that are important, even of they don't meet the approval of your spouse: openness, honesty, loyalty, respect, honor, diligence, etc, (used to be called virtues). These are things that CAN be worked at regardless of whether someone else is around or not. 

And they should also take precedence over what is pragmatic (what works for the current situation) or even utilitarian (what gets you the results you want the in the fastest possible manner). 

Each person also has specific needs that they hold precious: this falls into the category of things that must be communicated between the partners in a relationship.

But, and I do want to stress this - it is entirely possible to work out, and live, an entirely faithful, happy and satisfying marriage if the 'virtues' are in place as primary needs, even if other 'needs' are not met. That is because these things create a safe environment in which to return the same virtues. Anything beyond these are more akin to 'wants' than 'needs' - and therein lies the issue!

Why is it that so many relationships fail nowadays? Because people tend to place their 'wants' on a level with, or even in precedence to the 'needs' I mentioned above. And if they don't get what they 'want' - they move on to someone else who 'promises' to grant their wishes. It's the perpetual chase after a phantasmal 'happiness'. 

Question is, in the end: how important is it to be married to a person who places their 'wants' (not real needs) above all else? The problem is that if you place your happiness as the most important issue in your marriage, you end up ignoring virtues like honesty (say...it suits you better to lie to stay happy than to tell the truth and suffer some discomfort) - then you sacrifice honesty for happiness: and you thereby reduce the value of your mate. Is this really the kind of person you wish to marry anyway? One who will readily sacrifice you if it makes them happy, or reduces some discomfort for them?

Hence, I say that it takes precedence to work on 'virtues' - by yourself, if need be: because the person you become is one that will make an EXCELLENT permanent mate. All else can be worked out in the day to day. That is because deep down we all have pretty much the same 'needs' - a need for our spouse to be open, honest, loyal, respectful, honorable, diligent, etc...


----------



## marksaysay

I take it that you guys don't seem to like this idea of being together as a family in any context? Wife read these suggestions from info obtained at the parenting class we both have to attend. Obviously I haven't gone but I watched as she read along from this info. Are you saying it's not a good idea or that it won't turn out the way it's designed. The messages seem somewhat confusing. Please clarify...

I also found out today through an attorney that I don't have to do anything until I'm forced to do something. I didn't know so it makes me feel better knowing I don't want to do anything. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tanelornpete

Initially, the point is that the 'family' ends with the divorce. It isn't a family in any context at all. After that there are two separate, unconnected adults and a child or two passed between them from week to week. It isn't as romantic as social workers would like to picture it.

No, it's not likely to happen - you might get together once or twice, but then new families will emerge, new priorities will take place. Your child is always yours: your wife is not. Will your new wife want or appreciate you having private dinners with your ex and children? Is that even appropriate?

It isn't a good idea, nor will it work out the way it is designed. In essence, the goal of this form of social organization is very aptly described in Plato's "Republic"...where the family is so redefined that in the end, the State is the family, and parents are the organisms that supply products for the State's use...

In reality, the best your wife can hope for 50/50 custody, trade off holidays and see the kids about half the time. Provided her newest boyfriend is into children.......

On the other hand, although there is little you need to do regarding a divorce, I would advise that you attend the parenting classes. The State will view that favorably when determining custody: a parent who refuses to attend gains a black mark or two against them in the paperwork ("...father refused parenting classes..."), and if it comes down to subtleties in legal maneuvering - any mark against you is a bad thing.


----------



## AFEH

marksaysay said:


> I take it that you guys don't seem to like this idea of being together as a family in any context? Wife read these suggestions from info obtained at the parenting class we both have to attend. Obviously I haven't gone but I watched as she read along from this info. Are you saying it's not a good idea or that it won't turn out the way it's designed. The messages seem somewhat confusing. Please clarify...
> 
> I also found out today through an attorney that I don't have to do anything until I'm forced to do something. I didn't know so it makes me feel better knowing I don't want to do anything.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I guess as far as you are concerned you’ve to do what you consider to be the best interests of your child in the short, medium and long term. So maybe sit back and think on that for a while.

I didn’t realise the “behaving as a family” came from the child parenting class. I thought that had come from your wife and she was trying to leave your door open. It does really sound like she has checked out of your marriage.

Bob


----------



## marksaysay

AFEH said:


> I didn’t realise the “behaving as a family” came from the child parenting class. I thought that had come from your wife and she was trying to leave your door open. It does really sound like she has checked out of your marriage.
> 
> Bob


My pastor gave me a different perspective as did the counselor I've been working with for my porn/marriage issues. These 'family' gatherings may be my opportunity to show her any changes I've made as well as those she's been asking for. He said the fact that she has decided to put away some of her anger may be God's way of beginning to soften her heart in order to begin the process of healing and that it's a way where she can say she does still care and want me in her life without saying it. There are things I can do in these instances to show off the changed person I am and will be with or without her. Understand that I know this may or may not be the case but it's worth a shot. I'm thinking in terms of the love kindlers that I can actually display without her participation. Many of them I realized I'd done before and can commit to doing them again such as taking more pride in appearance. Keep in mind that I've never let myself go or practiced bad hygiene. I just didn't make much effort to look nice like I used to. That can change now. There are many others. 

Also Bob, I wouldn't necessarily agree that she's checked out. I believe that she's in this "fog" and since this is part of the divorce process that she desires, she's gonna do whatever it takes to make this happen. It's just her attempt to speed this process along. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Affaircare

> I take it that you guys don't seem to like this idea of being together as a family in any context? Wife read these suggestions from info obtained at the parenting class we both have to attend. Obviously I haven't gone but I watched as she read along from this info. Are you saying it's not a good idea or that it won't turn out the way it's designed. The messages seem somewhat confusing. Please clarify...


My guess is that your wife thinks that you two can divorce and yet you will continue to be available to her for meeting some needs (like mowing her lawn "for your daughter") and continue to still have Christmas and Easter together "for your daughter." It's like a form of fence-sitting: not wanting to commit to staying and working but not wanting to entirely cut all ties either. 

The concept as a theory is nice, but isn't honestly very practical or realistic for the reasons that Dear Hubby gave. In real life, if you two divorce, you or your ex are no longer a "family unit"--so you may move to another state, you may meet and marry another lady, she may meet and marry another man...and chances are that 2nd wife will not much appreciate you having Christmas with the ex "for your daughter"--especially if you have children with 2nd wife! Furthermore, if you two divorce, it's not really very healthy for either one of you to "hang onto each other" that way and just continue carrying on. Divorce *means* that you two are apart. So "working together civilly, coordinating visitation schedules in a business-like manner" is realistic, but "spending time together as a family, having dinners and holidays together" probably just is not. 

Does that make more sense? It's not so much that we're "against" it, but rather that even in a relatively friendly divorce, once you divorce both parties gradually move apart and carry on with separate lives. Thinking/expecting to continue behaving "as if" you're a family would be confusing. 



> I also found out today through an attorney that I don't have to do anything until I'm forced to do something. I didn't know so it makes me feel better knowing I don't want to do anything.


Naturally be sure to confirm this with your attorney, but it is my understanding that once divorce papers are actually filed and you are served, that there is a deadline to reply. To be precise, most states require that from the date you are served, you have 30 days to respond. If you do NOT respond, then the divorce will go 100% as she put in the filing. If you DO respond within that timeframe, you can ask for what you want, ask for a delay, ask for a court order for counseling, etc. So if you do not want the divorce, and she files and has you served, you can not ignore it "because you don't want to divorce." You would be "forced" to reply within 30 days. Does that make sense?


----------



## marksaysay

While I still find it hard to believe, I'm really starting to think there is little to no chance of reconciliation. She seems to sure about it as i found out she has signed up for yet another dating site. This one is an interracial dating site. She says I just need to accept the fact that she's done and move on.I want to believe that I should still fight to the end, but what good will come of it. My fighting, regardless of whether its simply working on me or trying to prolong the divorce process seems to bring more hurt to me than anything else. She got bothered yesterday by being confronted by our family friend about her infidelity and angrily yelled at her and me that it doesn't matter what anyone thinks. She said she's a grown woman and can do what ever she feels like doing. She said she'd lied to me about everything because she didn't want me to hurt. That, to me, seems a little odd. Just 3 months ago, we started planning for our second child. Part of me feels that she has simply checked out, wants to take control of her life andmove on. Part of me feels it is this "fog" and that she'll come out at some point. I've already began to make my changes and will continue to do so. I want this hurt to go away. I want my family back. I want to show her I can and will change. Unfortunately, these changes may have come to late to save our marriage. She just doesn't seem to have much of a conscience about her infidelity, about dating while she's still married or anything else. She says she doesn't want another relationship but her new profile says she's looking for "long term". I may just need to concede to the fact that she's gone and move on but that's easier said than done....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tanelornpete

> She got bothered yesterday by being confronted by our family friend about her infidelity and angrily yelled at her and me that it doesn't matter what anyone thinks.


If it didn't matter, she would not have yelled at you. I t matters, just not enough make her want to change. That happens a lot, exposing the affair is one step in a long process. Sometimes it is the last thing you need, at other times it is not. But anger is an expected reaction, regardless. Absolute unconcern would be a more troubling (and less normal) reaction.



> I want to believe that I should still fight to the end, but what good will come of it. My fighting, regardless of whether its simply working on me or trying to prolong the divorce process seems to bring more hurt to me than anything else.


Here's the issue: fighting to the end means doing the right thing until either the marriage ends, or the marriage recovers. It does not mean 'do what is right only until you are convinced that the marriage will end'! What does that infer? That once you are convinced that the marriage will end, that you can go back to all the things that caused problems in the relationship before?



> She said she's a grown woman and can do what ever she feels like doing.


The mark of an adult is taking the responsibility to do things that you NEED to do - regardless of 'how you feel' or what you want to do. That is called 'maturity'. Even more striking about her statement is what it reveals about her spiritual condition, n'est pas?



> Part of me feels that she has simply checked out, wants to take control of her life andmove on. Part of me feels it is this "fog" and that she'll come out at some point.


The two possibilities are not mutually exclusive: a person in the fog is absolutely certain that they MUST check out, because of how awful things were in the past. 



> She just doesn't seem to have much of a conscience about her infidelity, about dating while she's still married or anything else. She says she doesn't want another relationship but her new profile says she's looking for "long term". I may just need to concede to the fact that she's gone and move on but that's easier said than done....


Take a screen print of the profile and show it to your pastor/church council. This should encourage them to take the steps they should already be doing.


----------



## marksaysay

I found it odd for her to say that she didn't care but yet she was so mad about it. The funny thing about it was she called after she got the call. She expressed her anger towards me again later on in another phone call. But it doesn't bother her, right? I didn't think that wa the case at all. Concerning my willingness to fight, I really wasn't meaning that I would stop doing what I know to be right. I was really saying should I continue to fight for her and my family thinking that it wouldn't make a difference. My FIL's wife, one of my sounding boards who is also appalled by my wife's actions, says there is nothing wrong with you fighting especially since its for my wife and family. She also feels as I do about being rewarded in one way or another for my willingness to fight, for my persistence, and just for not giving up. 

Her reason for doing wrong and the fact that she tries to hide and cover up her actions tells me that she is not acting or thinking very rationally or clearly at all, but I already knew that. To me, it's much like the behavior of a child. She even shot me a finger the other day. I hadn't done or seen it done in forever so I just kinda laughed. What made me think it was actually over was her starting yet another profile she doesn't know I know about. If all of what she said were true, that she wasn't looking for someone, that she just wanted to be by herself, and all the other stuff, then why not one but two dating sites. Someone, in my opinion, who simply wanted out of a bad relationship and was thinking rationally, would not be doing what she's doing. She even went as far last night as saying that in 7 years, the only thing I've done for our daughter is buy 2 pair of shoes and that is simply not possible.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tanelornpete

> ght, I really wasn't meaning that I would stop doing what I know to be right. I was really saying should I continue to fight for her and my family thinking that it wouldn't make a difference. My FIL's wife, one of my sounding boards who is also appalled by my wife's actions, says there is nothing wrong with you fighting especially since its for my wife and family. She also feels as I do about being rewarded in one way or another for my willingness to fight, for my persistence, and just for not giving up.


Yes! Great lady! There's no reason not to fight to the very end - read JAR's thread! Regardless of what happens, you'll walk out of it knowing you did all you could, and it was she, not you, that brought about the destruction of your covenant.


----------



## marksaysay

Ok so last night I went out and played some pool and sang some karaoke. Had a good time even though thoughts of wife were there. This morning, I get a call from her but I decided I didn't want to talk to her. She left a message stating she needed daughter's dance shoes since I had them last weekend. I text back that I would drop them off at dance studio. She calls again within 5 minutes but still I didn't answer. I text back asking what's up. She texts for me to answer phone. Finally I do and she says that I should answer phone because her calls were only concerning daughter. I said I told u I was dropping off shoes so what more is there. She says daughter decided she didn't want to dance today but I told her she couldn't texted that to me. She then started talking about how I was being rude for not answering phone. She talks about not caring about where I'm living and all this kind of stuff. Then talks about me taking required parenting class and I told her I would. I still have 13 days before I have to sign up so I'm not in a hurry. It actually felt good. Do I still love her? Yes, very much so. I just want to limit our contact as much as possible and in some sense do the 180, I guess. Still got a long ways to go. I still think she cares even though she tells herself and me something different or she wouldn't have gotten agitated by me not answering my phone. What do you guys think?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Sounds like a good plan.


----------



## marksaysay

I was surprised to see wife at church yesterday. She came looking really good I must say. But I kept with my plan of keeping my space and did not pursue her and only spoke regarding some mail she had for me. I find it somewhat odd that she still came because I would have thought someone who wanted to do nothing with me and was done would not voluntarily come to same place. I still stuck to my guns. I haven't really talked with her for several days and at this point it doesn't seem to bother her. Reality is starting to set in as I will be spending thanksgiving away from her and daughter for first time in 11 years. It will be rough but I'll get through it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## marksaysay

Hadn't been here for a while so I decided to give an update. Things haven't really changed a lot other than my more committed approach to me and my improvement. I've had several difficult days but I'm still here. Wife has been pretty unresponsive to her cousin who addressed her as nonconfrontational as possible. She admitted several things but quickly cut the conversation when her cousin stated that her actions were not proper for a married woman. Wife then refused to accept any calls for days. Wife called her back days later leaving a message about how she had not had time to think and how could she believe anything I told her. All this was done while crying into the phone. We are still not communicating although she has gotten bothered by my unwillingness to allow her to control everything as well as my lack of contact with her. I will continue to try and wait out the storm for a little while longer and also continue to work on myself.

Also, my wife has done some kinda weird things in the last few days, atleast in my eyes. She has told me she doesn't care about what happens to me yet she calls to inquire about an issue I have with my car. She says she no longer cars what I do but then she wants to ask about what I'm doing and where i've been hanging out. She says she doesn't want to be around me but yet she still comes to the same church, although we don't really communicate. She also decided to rejoin the bowling team we've been a part of for the last 2 years. Keep in mind that all this has been done over the last 4-5 days. Is this normal for a woman who is done and no longer wants a relationship with or am I starting to affect her? I just thought all these things were kind of peculiar....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## marksaysay

The 30th day after being served D papers is monday. My birthday is Tuesday. What a present, huh? Not any major changes other than the fact that I am completely commited to not giving up. I know there is not much else I can do. I have had some really difficult days. I've considered reproaching mother-in-law who has told another relative she doesn't believe my "accusations". I don't know if it will do any good because I found out she's been inquiring to therapists at her job about my likelihood of getting over my porn problem and totally overlooking her daughters activities. I really think the best thing for me to right now is just worry about what I can control, me. At this point, divine intervention is the only thing that might save my family and my marriage. I won't stop believing that a reconciliation is possible until all is said and done. Its just so bothersome that there are members of her family who know of her activities and disagree with because they are wrong but they won't say anything. They feel that only her mother or father should say something. I think that's sad.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

If you have proof, just send her a note with copies of it and say 'I'm hearing that you are telling people you don't believe what I've been telling you about your daughter. I know it hurts to hear about your loved ones doing things you don't approve of, but I was really hoping you'd help support our marriage - there's so much there to just throw away, and it will hurt a lot of people. 

So, just in case you're debating what to do, here is a copy of what I've been dealing with. I still love your daughter and I'm willing to work on this marriage if she will give up OM and recommit to us. I promise you, and daughter, that I am fully aware of my own issues and am working diligently to rid myself of any obstacles to us having a great marriage moving forward. I only hope that she will see the benefits of that, too. And I hope you will help me reconcile our family. I don't want to lose her, OR you guys.

Love, 
Your SIL'


----------



## 827Aug

turnera said:


> If you have proof, just send her a note with copies of it and say 'I'm hearing that you are telling people you don't believe what I've been telling you about your daughter. I know it hurts to hear about your loved ones doing things you don't approve of, but I was really hoping you'd help support our marriage - there's so much there to just throw away, and it will hurt a lot of people.
> 
> So, just in case you're debating what to do, here is a copy of what I've been dealing with. I still love your daughter and I'm willing to work on this marriage if she will give up OM and recommit to us. I promise you, and daughter, that I am fully aware of my own issues and am working diligently to rid myself of any obstacles to us having a great marriage moving forward. I only hope that she will see the benefits of that, too. And I hope you will help me reconcile our family. I don't want to lose her, OR you guys.
> 
> Love,
> Your SIL'


:iagree: I think this should be your next step. It's worth a try. What do you have to lose at this point? I tried something very similar with my estranged husband last year. 

My mother actually sent my FIL a very nice letter urging him to help last year. My FIL is a church deacon, so my mother pleaded to him as a Christian to step in an help. She also included the proof of his "swinging" activities. My therapist thought my mother wrote the most compassionate ( & beautiful) letter. But, you know my FIL simply ignored the letter--he never responded to my mother. However, I do know something was said to my estranged husband; he was really angry for weeks. That was about the extent of it though. 

I really hope you find a way to change your wife's heart.


----------



## marksaysay

I've been so hesitant to completely reveal everything. The little I have revealed hasn't done much but make her mad. I'm wondering if it would be too late to do something since our court date will probably be set soon since I'm not signing papers. But again I know her mother hasn't said anything about the things I revealed to her because my wife hadn't called me about it and I know she would. A woman told me to be careful in doing a complete exposure because she feels it would hurt more than help and that she could become extremely more vindictive as it pertains to the divorce but the more I think about it, what do I really have to lose. I just feel like if her mother knew everything, she would have to say something but I also know that her mother is different and finds it difficult to address wrong in her children, specifically her daughter whom she doesn't have the best relationship with. I'm torn with what to do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

If for nothing else, let her know what her daughter's doing so that, maybe, somewhere along the line, her mother (who will finally know the truth) just may have some sort of influence over your STBX.

As you said, what have you got to lose?


----------



## marksaysay

My wife tried to hit me last night. I went over to pick up daughter and she asked why I hadn't submitted divorce papers yet. I just told her that i didn't want the divorce. She said that she stopped loving me years ago and that I didn't have to make it this hard. She said to just give her what she wants so she can be free to do what she wants and free from me. I just told her she filed the divorce and i have the right to contest it. She then swung at me but I blocked it. All this with our daughter in the car a few feet away. Don't think she saw it though. Is this typical of someone in the "fog" or should I just throw in the towel, give her the quick, divorce and move on? I still have a lot of fight in me and I'm not really ready to give up yet....


----------



## 827Aug

It sounds to me as though she is getting very frustrated. Perhaps some of the pressure you are exerting (like exposing her activities) is starting to get to her. She would like for you to make this easy for her--and that's not happening. She's still in the fog and will probably be there a while longer. The very fact that she is "rewriting" history is indicative of that.

I believe you have answered you own question when you stated that you had plenty of fight left and not ready to quit yet. So, who says you have to quit? You need to follow your heart on this one......so you never have regrets. You'll know when you need to quit.

Hang in there!


----------



## marksaysay

827Aug said:


> It sounds to me as though she is getting very frustrated. Perhaps some of the pressure you are exerting (like exposing her activities) is starting to get to her. She would like for you to make this easy for her--and that's not happening. She's still in the fog and will probably be there a while longer. The very fact that she is "rewriting" history is indicative of that.
> 
> I believe you have answered you own question when you stated that you had plenty of fight left and not ready to quit yet. So, who says you have to quit? You need to follow your heart on this one......so you never have regrets. You'll know when you need to quit.
> 
> Hang in there!


This is exactly what I was thinking. She wants control of everything and I'm not letting her. She so wants to convince everyone that she no longer wants to be with me and has made look like such an awful person by giving very one-sided accounts of our relationship and not revealing her issues or recent activities. I don't expect her to. She even called our pastor today asking him to tell me that I needed to give her the divorce she wanted and just leave her alone. Keep in mind I haven't texted her, called her, or pursued her for atleast 2 weeks. Whe she voluntary returned to our bowling team and spent the entire evening texting, I never questioned her nor did I act as if it bothered me. I dressed nice and just bowled and even left before she did, as if I had somewhere to go (even though I didn't). I think my not reacting to her texting whom I'm sure was another guy bothered her more than she wants me to believe. I just don't believe she is as disconnected from me as she wants people to believe which is evident to me by her outbursts. Wouldn't she be more unconcerned if she was totally done? I will continue my course and deal with whatever the result. She wants me to concede but I want to fight and that's what I'm gonna do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## AFEH

Marksaysay, there is no such thing as a “fog”. It doesn’t exist.

Your partner will see her behaviour and actions as extremely rational and objective …. from her point of view.

She will see your actions and behaviour as extremely subjective and irrational. That is she will see you as the person in a “fog” if indeed a “fog” did exist.

Are you in a “fog”. Is that what you would call the thing you are in? Is your behaviour and actions objective and rational given the circumstances you find yourself in?

Just because you see her actions and behaviours as subjective and irrational that does not mean she is in a “fog”.

Bob


----------



## turnera

marksaysay said:


> She so wants to convince everyone that she no longer wants to be with me and has made look like such an awful person by giving very one-sided accounts of our relationship and not revealing her issues or recent activities.


Mark, THIS is why we urge you to expose the affair - FIRST.

Because you didn't tell people the truth, they now believe HER. Go back behind her and tell them that she has been having an affair and that's why she wants out. Let her see that they won't accept her version.

If you want to still fight, there is NO POINT unless you have told people the truth, so they can help you end the affair.

What else are you doing to fight it?


----------



## Affaircare

marksaysay said:


> The 30th day after being served D papers is monday.


Just a note, marksaysay. If you were served divorce papers and you do not respond to them, then that means the divorce will be signed the way she filed them. The judge will just sign them and it's over. 

If you do not intend to be divorced in about 90 days (or whatever your states says the waiting period is) you MUST respond to the court. "Must" means it is not optional. 

If you do not respond, whatever is in the papers she filed about custody and division of property will be what is signed and enforced by the court and law enforcement in your divorce. It WILL happen. 

On the other hand, if you do respond, you can file with the court the way you would like custody, the way you would like to divide property, indicate you are contesting it, and indicate that you don't think it's irreconcilable and request counseling and then request mediation. Even if you thought her ideas about custody and property were pretty fair and okay--if you do not respond you do not delay it! *If you do respond, you DO DELAY IT*. 

So I would extremely strongly recommend responding by or before Monday. Friday would be best. If you need a link to the forms for your state, just ask and I'll add a link right here. You can also search for something like: 'Answer and Counter-petition for Divorce with Children" for your state. You can file the response--you can have an attorney file the response for you--but one way or another my guess is that you'll want to respond in order to delay the divorce. If you do not it will be signed and after 90 days (in most states) finalized.


----------



## marksaysay

In reading the Indiana laws for contested divorces, it says judge will still make ruling within the allotted 60 day period. I don't have the money for lawyer so I'm at discretion of the courts. I will have to present some very good reasons as to why I feel marriage is worth saving. Oddly enough, her cousin feels as if her infidelity may work inmy favor because Im willing to try to work on the relationship even in spite of it. While I know I can't count on that, the only thing that i can do is hope and pray for divine intervention and be ready for whatever the result. I'm not gonna stray from my path of self improvement nor will I stray from the 180 that I've been doing. Whatever will be will be.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## honey0108

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## marksaysay

honey0108 said:


> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What was your thought?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## marksaysay

Wife called our pastor yesterday asking him to tell me to leave her alone and that she was going to file restraining order against me. This further proves how mentally not there she is. I haven't contacted her since thanksgiving nor have I done anything to make her think I would harm her nor have I ever. She's the one that threw water in my face when I confronted her about her activities. She's the one that tried to hit me with our daughter a few feet away. The problem is I won't let her have total control of the situation by conceding to an easy and smooth divorce. If she desires to divorce I have the right to not want it and to fight it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

You're documenting her actions, right?


----------



## marksaysay

turnera said:


> You're documenting her actions, right?


Absolutely! Also, MIL called pastor to say that I just need to back off and let things die down. She obviously doesnt know that I have not contacted her daughter since thanksgiving. The only exchanges we've had have been about our daughter. She also stated that she didn't appreciate me leaving the very explicit information with her and that she didn't want to know about that stuff. She didn't say that it was wrong or that it bothered her, but that she didn't want to know. Obviously, she didn't say anything to her daughter about it. Anyways, I will continue to not contact wife and will move forward with my plan for self-improvement. I do believe my lack of pursuit is bothering her more than she wants me to believe. MIL also said that her daughter isn't doing anything right now, which I'm not convinced of, but if she isn't, that's good because I will get what I wanted all along. Time for her to think about what's going on and make a clear-headed decision without outside influence. I think some of her frustration is due to having stopped the contact with other men, if she has. It's also due to me not letting her have total control of the situation. I will continue with my 180 and hope for reconciliation. If it doesn't happen, though, I will be a better man.


----------



## turnera

And more attractive.


----------



## marksaysay

Go figure. In my wife's conversation with our pastor, she said she was going to leave the church because she couldn't stand to be around me but she shows up tonight to bowl. I just don't know what's going through her mind. It surprised the heck out of me. Any of you guys got a take on this?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 827Aug

Yeah, I see a couple of things here. Her behavior tells me your work is paying off. First, I would say that it is getting to be uncomfortable for her to attend church (as well as church related activities). Second, perhaps she is starting to feel alienated from people--inside and outside of church. That would be my guess at this point because a lot of people must now know of her adulteress behavior. I wouldn't worry too much about her threats--where else is she going to go?


----------



## Affaircare

Marksaysay~

I posted this for another person here on this forum and I think this extremely important point is being "lost in the shuffle": you were served with divorce papers and Monday is the 30 day deadline. I don't know the circumstances of how you were served, but my guess is either certified, return receipt or a sheriff handed you papers. But if the 30 day deadline is Monday, I don't want you to learn a lesson the VERY HARD WAY ...so I'm raising the alert!

Please, *please* take the time to look up, read, and research the laws of your state!! In most states it goes like this: The Petitioner files for divorce. They have 30 days to prove that they served you. They can hand you the papers if you sign the Waiver of Service (which usually is "I agree to take the papers"). If you do not sign the Waiver, she would have to mail them to you certified, registered, return receipt or get a sheriff or some other adult over 18yo who will sign saying they did serve you. Based on what you've said, you have been served, so I'm assuming that this part has been done!!! 

THEN if you do sign you'd have 30 days to Respond (thus why you'd be called a Respondent) and say that you don't think it's irreconcilable, that here's how you'd like the custody, and request counseling etc. If you don't respond within that 30 days, then the judge will wait the 60 days waiting period in your state, and he'll sign the Petitioner's version of the divorce and you're *done*!!! If you didn't respond, you can't come in on day 50 and say "But I don't want this...I disagree" because you gave up your right by not responding within 30 days after you were served. 

Sooooooooo...*CHECK YOUR STATE LAWS!!!* If she served you and you don't respond on Monday, you will have lost your chance to object to the divorce and it will be signed and finalized some time after 60 days has elapsed. They will look at the calendar on Dec. 13th, and look for the soonest open date after Feb. 13th and it will be all final! SO IF YOU DO NOT WANT HER VERSION OF CUSTODY you will need to file some kind of response by or before Monday. If you do not, and you show up day 50 and say you object, it will be too late. 

I am bringing this up again because you are not seeking the advice of an attorney, and I don't want you to miss an important deadline that will affect your life and your marriage. If you miss it, the divorce will go through exactly as she filed it in a little more than 60 days. Your only hope at that point is to somehow hope she'd retract the divorce--and it's much easier to stall one until she has time to come to her senses than it is to "hope she'll agree to retract it."


----------



## marksaysay

Wife filed a "no-fault/irretrievably broken" marriage. In indiana, with a no-fault divorce, there is nothing that can be done to stop it or contest it. From everything I've read,and I've read a lot, the only thing that can be done during a no-fault divorce is to suggest mediation or counseling. I am currently in counseling myself for my maritable problems in addition to my porn issue, or shall I say, former porn issue, but she has not gone, although she said she would two months ago. She has a lot of things that she doesn't want to address right now, at least that's what I believe.

It really is not that I don't want to do all I can to try and delay things. I just don't have the money to drag things out the way I would like. I did have a consultation with an attorney and he stated that I really didn't have to sign anything. He said I could ask the court to recommend counseling as well.


----------



## marksaysay

Today is my birthday and it has been one of the toughest days I've had in a while. The first one without my wife or daughter waking me up with b-day wishes, cards, etc. I'm still praying everyday for a resolution and possible reconciliation, but I will keep making myself better. Decided to quit smoking today so my path to self improvement continues. 

Also, how do you break news to children about possible divorce? I don't want to lie to her by saying this is a mutual decision but I don't want her to hate her mother either. I'm not ready to have that talk yet but I just want ya'lls input.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

I firmly believe in telling the kids the truth. "Mommy got a boyfriend, and you shouldn't have boyfriends when you're married. I don't want to live with Mommy if she still has her boyfriend, so we are deciding what to do now."

HAPPY BIRTHDAY!


----------



## 827Aug

turnera said:


> I firmly believe in telling the kids the truth. "Mommy got a boyfriend, and you shouldn't have boyfriends when you're married. I don't want to live with Mommy if she still has her boyfriend, so we are deciding what to do now."
> 
> HAPPY BIRTHDAY!


Ditto on the advice and the birthday wish!


----------



## marksaysay

Ok my wife of whom I've been separated from for about 2 months just texted wishing happy birthday. Maybe I just try to read too much into things but everytime she says something to me or texts me she always has to add that she is not doing this because she loves me. I haven't been in pursuit of her and have been pretty much doing the 180 for the past three weeks. She tells everybody she can't stand to be around me because she hates me so much but she voluntarily continues to come to places where I am. She said she would leave our church but she still comes. She said she was done bowling on our team but she returned 2 weeks ago. I don't understand why she has to keep beating a dead horse. Maybe she is just trying to convince herself. I don't know. I will continue on my path of self improvement as well as with the 180. It's all in God's hands now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## rome2012

marksaysay said:


> Maybe she is just trying to convince herself. I don't know.


Sure seems like it....

:smthumbup:


----------



## Wolf359

turnera said:


> I firmly believe in telling the kids the truth. "Mommy got a boyfriend, and you shouldn't have boyfriends when you're married. I don't want to live with Mommy if she still has her boyfriend, so we are deciding what to do now."
> 
> HAPPY BIRTHDAY!




:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:


----------



## marksaysay

Okay, so i did something i'm extremely proud of today. On sunday, my wife asked me to drop something off at our church so that she could pick it up, which i did. So today, she asks me to go back and get it and bring it to her. I replied that i'd already done what she asked. She said, "I know but no one was there when I went to pick it up and you have a key to the church." I haven't responded and I won't. If she doesn't want to be married to me, then she no longer gets the priviledges of my "wife". If she wants it, she has to go get it herself. What do think about that guys???


----------



## Powerbane

Good one! What are you her errand boy now? If she wanted it so bad she should have just asked you to bring it to her the first time!


----------



## 827Aug

I'm in full agreement with you on that one. She was complaining to everyone how you wouldn't leave her alone--even when that wasn't the case. I would hate for you to provide her proof of that claim.


----------



## marksaysay

Now she calls me at 6:45 am to inquire about something to do with daughter. I answered only because I thought it was an emergency but found out it wasn't. She then calls again at 7:45 but I didn't answer this time. Her message was about a couple of different things, but damn, I won't leave her alone. The two phone calls could have easily been texts. Why does she have to keep calling over really trivial things? Why does she continue to call when she "hates" me so much? I must add that we both attended our daughter's gymnastics showcase last night. We didn't talk but I showed up dressed really nice, like I used to when we first got together. I left promptly after my daughters final event. I think my changes and my 180 are really getting to her. She does still seem angry but I think some of it now is due to my 'moving on' and the fact that I'm not groveling over her or proclaiming my love for her anymore. She also no longer is in control of everything. I'll continue on my path.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Powerbane

Is it time to kick this into high gear and get an intermediary and go to Plan B? At least with plan b you would not be danger of being in her space and her claiming you did something.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## marksaysay

Powerbane said:


> Is it time to kick this into high gear and get an intermediary and go to Plan B? At least with plan b you would not be danger of being in her space and her claiming you did something.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm not quite ready to make that step right now, especially with Christmas a little more than a week away. I do think that right after Christmas, meaning the day after, would be a great time to start, though. That would put my plan A at a month. I do believe it's starting to affect her and that I need to take it to another level, but not ready just yet. This will also give me time to figure out who that intermediarry will be. I will tell you, though, that I really feel good about the personal changes I've made. I'm back, in many ways, to the person I was before I got complacent in our relationship. Deep down, I really wish that a reconcile is in the future, but I know there is a strong possibility that it isn't. For some reason, though, I feel it is more likely than not. Only time will tell....


----------



## turnera

She's calling to make sure you stay 'hooked'.


----------



## marksaysay

Hooked? Please explain.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

It's part of the cake eating. People who cheat want to have their Emotional Needs met by TWO people - their spouse AND the affair partner. That way, they get quite a thrill, knowing two people are 'fighting' for them. What an ego boost!

Eventually, however, the betrayed spouse starts getting tired of being used and abused, and starts to pull away, stops chasing, doesn't engage in the 'battle.'

The cheater, then, starts feeling put out. Wait a minute! He's supposed to be sitting at home pining away for me! I'd better call him up and give him a few crumbs so he'll come back around and try to win me again. Make him think he's got a chance by being nice to him. So he'll start chasing and feed my ego again.

All subconscious, of course, but real nonetheless. 

She doesn't want this fish (you) to get away by treating you TOO badly. Gotta throw you some crumbs.

Cut off her cake supply.


----------



## marksaysay

I came to the conclusion today that I'm gonna stop fighting to be with someone who, at this point, doesn't want to be with me. In my opinion, she doesn't even deserve me. The woman I am seeing right now is not the woman I fell in love with. When we have our day in court, I will let her have the divorce. What I do know and believe is that one day, either sooner or later, she will regret her decision. I am a good man, although I've made mistakes. She will one day realize that and she better hope I haven't already moved on. I am still married right now and will continue to act as such but I will no longer fight her if this is what she wants. It will only be her loss.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bangun

I like this.. this is a clear statement from a man :smthumbup:


----------



## disbelief

Reaching that point myself
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## marksaysay

Had a talk with the wife today expressing my desire to move forward with giving her the divorce stating that I deserved better, deserved to be loved, deserved someone committed to me. She followed with some other complaints that were exagerrated. I told her that i was still married and would conduct myself as a married man until I am no longer married (a dart at her activities). She tells me that i can come over and celebrate christmas with daughter and her at her apartment (that's where all the gifts are) but that it was her place and I have no right to be snooping around. Why throw that in if you are not doing anything that requires secrecy? Anyway, I'm getting more and more confident about my decision to move forward with my life because she doesn't deserve me. If she is willing to continue this behavior, but deny it to everyone, then I can do better. I wish her the best, but she will one day regret leaving me...


----------



## Powerbane

Mark - you've found your self respect and backbone. You're doing a fine plan A showing both the Carrot and the Stick. You've come a long way and you might want to go to a Dark Plan B. It might be enough to finally snap her out of this fog she's still in. You're seeing only glimpses of the woman you married because she's got you and the OM. Going dark will show her what it's like to be divorced.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## marksaysay

Powerbane said:


> Mark - you've found your self respect and backbone. You're doing a fine plan A showing both the Carrot and the Stick. You've come a long way and you might want to go to a Dark Plan B. It might be enough to finally snap her out of this fog she's still in. You're seeing only glimpses of the woman you married because she's got you and the OM. Going dark will show her what it's like to be divorced.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm not sure that I want to do this for a couple of reasons. 1) She says that she is not convinced that I was moving on, even though this is the first time I've said that I was no longer going to fight the divorce. So I really want her to see that I am. 2) I am really starting to feel like I don't want to be married to her any longer since she wants to act this way. I won't lie and say that I don't still have feelings for her, because I do. I won't lie and say that, after the divorce is final, I won't be bothered by seeing her with someone else, because I know it will. Maybe it won't. I don't know. But I deserve better and she just may not be what I need. If she doesn't come around before we go to court in January, I feel like it will be time for me to move forward and wait for the right person to come along. I really don't have any hard feelings towards her, but I do know that she will one day hate the fact that she prematurely gave up on me and our marriage and hope for another chance. Unfortunately, it may very well be too late.


----------



## turnera

The best way to get her to come around, is to go dark Plan B and SHOW her what she's losing and to show her that you ARE moving on - by being dark!

Plan B DOES give her time to realize it. Read up on it at marriagebuilders.com or in Surviving An Affair.


----------



## Powerbane

:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:

Do it Mark! Plan B - Get your Intermediary lined up so you can see your daughter and then drop out of sight! 

I know Marriage Builders has an example of Plan B letters to lay out exactly what you are doing at each step. 

You need to save any of whats left in your Love Bank towards your wife while you still can.


----------



## AFEH

marksaysay said:


> I came to the conclusion today that I'm gonna stop fighting to be with someone who, at this point, doesn't want to be with me. In my opinion, she doesn't even deserve me. The woman I am seeing right now is not the woman I fell in love with. When we have our day in court, I will let her have the divorce. What I do know and believe is that one day, either sooner or later, she will regret her decision. I am a good man, although I've made mistakes. She will one day realize that and she better hope I haven't already moved on. I am still married right now and will continue to act as such but I will no longer fight her if this is what she wants. It will only be her loss.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



For me, your conclusions and judgements are spot on. As is your way ahead and through all this.

Bob


----------



## marksaysay

turnera said:


> The best way to get her to come around, is to go dark Plan B and SHOW her what she's losing and to show her that you ARE moving on - by being dark!
> 
> Plan B DOES give her time to realize it. Read up on it at marriagebuilders.com or in Surviving An Affair.


Yep. It is now time for plan b. She has pushed me long enough. Like Popeye, 'I stands all I can stands and I can't stands no more'. She will regret having walked out on me and our family.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Affaircare

Here are some sample letters to send right before the Consequences/Plan B phase: 

Sample Consequences Letters

But here's my question for ya. Consequences/Plan B is for someone who is not divorcing. Carrot & Stick/Plan A shows the disloyal that you CAN BE the one to give her love kindlers and that you can end the love extinguishers you were doing...AND it shows the disloyal that there is a cost associated with the choices they're making. Consequences/Plan B is to protect the love you have for the disloyal before they completely extinguish it all. It's to give them a rude wake up to what it will be like when you meet NONE of their needs and give no love kindlers anymore. But the goal or aim is to wake them up and reconcile the marriage. 

At this point it sounds to me as if you are determined to divorce, and if that's the case, you wouldn't send this letter telling her that you accept your part in the breakdown or what steps she'd need to do before you'd discuss allowing her to return to the marriage. There ARE no steps because you're not willing to return. Does that make sense? 

For your own mental health, if you have decided to divorce, you may want to disentangle from her, but it would not be Consequences/Plan B. It would look a little similar but the aim is different. In disentanglement you have made the decision to divorce no longer what to have your life, finances, affection, etc. tangled with her life, finances, and affection--you want to be apart, be an individual, be free, and move on.


----------



## marksaysay

It's been a while since I last posted, but I've had some time to think about my last post. I must confess that I'd given in to what everyone was telling me that I should while ignoring what my heart was telling me to do. Ive decided that I'm not going to give up. That decision actually came the day after my last post. No one else is in my shoes. No one else can tell me what I should do in terms if whether or not I should continue fighting for mr marriage. No one else can tell me what I really feel so I need to stop listening to people telling me to give up and give in. I have continued to stay on my path of self improvement and have kept contact with wife at a bare minimum. It really ticks her off that I am not there at her every beck and call. 

Over the last few days, I've learned a lot about myself as well as my wife. More importantly I've learned a lot about God and his views on marriage and divorce. Ive also learned that my wife finds every little thing that I do or don't do as a reason to get angry with me. Yesterday, when I stopped by her apartment to pick up daughter while her mother was babysitting, I grabbed a handful of the 200+ DVDs that we'd accumulated during our relationship since I don't have cable. She got extremely mad about that. I didn't let it bother me as I did nothing wrong unless my mistake was not asking permission to borrow what already was mine, at least partially anyway. Didn't think it would be a big deal as she knows I'm without cable but it was. Personally, I feel like a change in our situation in near. I may be wrong but that's how I feel and feeling is so strong. I know one thing, I've come to realize just what it means to have unconditional love for someone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Powerbane

Mark - only you can know when enough is enough. I think you're far from the giving up stage. 

As for your wife - keep Plan A when you can and your 180. 

I wish you luck and the best for the new year.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## marksaysay

I am still on plan a/180. I am far from the giving up stage. I feel kinda of silly knowing that I'd allowed others to tell me that it was time I gave up. I do believe that my switch in attitude towards her has affected her. Now I think her anger is due to me longer chasing and pleading and questioning. Do I still at times wonder? Yes, but what she does is out of my control. I will say that I don't have the frequent bad days like before.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Eli-Zor

If this helps you then carry on, plan B is normally when you cannot carry on and have to step back for you own sanity. At a point in time you may have to plan B her. Have an IM ready at that stage you will go dark.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## marksaysay

I just can't figure this out. Why is she so mad? I am the faithful spouse who has done nothing but love her. I didn't cheat. What I did do was expose her to a few people i thought would at the least express to her how wrong her actions were, but they didn't. I have stopped being at her every beck and call. I've stopped chasing her. I've stopped doing many of the things I did at the beginning but she just continues to express anger towards me. I should be the one who's angry for all that she's done, but I'm not. It's just so crazy how all this has unfolded.


----------



## RegionRat

Mark, I understand your feelings. I'm in the same position. My wife was having the affair, I exposed it and she has been giving me the angry treatment ever since. While it's difficult, you have to know that you did the right thing by exposing it, executing Plan A and looking into Plan B. And if it ends badly, then you know at least that you did everything you could to save the marriage.


----------



## turnera

She's ashamed of herself for what she's done, and she expects you to be ashamed of her, too. You aren't. You're just numb. 

What she really wants, IMO, is for you to be chasing her, pursuing her, being angry, being motivated to get your wife back.


----------



## marksaysay

turnera said:


> She's ashamed of herself for what she's done, and she expects you to be ashamed of her, too. You aren't. You're just numb.
> 
> What she really wants, IMO, is for you to be chasing her, pursuing her, being angry, being motivated to get your wife back.


So are you saying I should be chasing her or continue with what I'm doing?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

When I say chasing, I'm really talking about when you first find out they are cheating or leaving - FIGHT for the marriage!

At this point...who knows?


----------



## marksaysay

God knows. I tried all of that at the beginning and it made things worse. I'm past that phase. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Affaircare

You know, marksaysay, I can't speak for your wife. Each woman obviously is different, and different things drive and motivate a person. But I can share with you some things that I thought. 

[NOTE: THE FOLLOWING BLUE THOUGHTS ARE DISLOYAL FOG THINKING--SO IT IS NOT REASONABLE OR REALISTIC, BUT IT IS SOMEWHAT TYPICAL OF WHAT A DISLOYAL *MAY *THINK]
For one thing, I was mad basically for two things: 1) mad that I tried and tried and tried to be taken seriously and he didn't really "hear" until I was so fed up I was done and 2) mad that I found someone who was willing to do things he wasn't willing to do and give some things I wanted...and then he "got it" so he messed that all up. _(Note: in real life, I hinted, then suggested, then tried to be more direct but in a controlling way...and of course he didn't "hear" that. Also in real life I justified knowing what I knew was wrong, rather than doing "the right thing" because it was hard.)_

Now I'm not saying that is clear-thinking, godly, right or anything...that's just the type of thing I was mad about in my head. I got to a point where I felt like if I lit myself on FIRE his response would have been, "Huh? Oh... yeah..." so I can't say that's how she felt but I bet she says something along that line. Then in whatever way she did it, she did try to say to you, "Hey this is serious...you might lose me" and your response was more of that activity that was killing her love, so like I said, its that foggy thinking but part of your head thinks, "Okay. Well if you're checking out I guess I will too." Then along comes some opportunist, sees the chance to get some, and she sees it as her hubby couldn't care less if she were ON FIRE and this other guy actually gives a rip and will make the effort! _(Note: in real life when we marry someone we make promises to them about forsaking all others, and that means I know my own weaknesses and protect my spouse from being hurt due to my temptations. And in real life I would be willing to meet his needs and thinking of him...not being selfish and wanting to "take".)_

Then, all-of-a-sudden you get it. You're going to actually lose her! Then, you make the effort, and it makes her mad because for all that time before (in her head) she asked and asked and asked you and you didn't care enough because it was FOR HER. Now you'll be the one hurting...and NOW you care. So see how that would make a person mad? She probably has this whole, big burden of resentment she's carrying around because of it.

Plus, you didn't care enough about her to make the effort when she needed it, but when you finally said, "Well guess I'll look elsewhere then" and found someone who she thinks "made her happy"--did you think "Oh good for you. You did what you had to do to pursue your own happiness"? No! She finally got something good going and you went and told everyone and busted up her ability to be happy! Again, this is not accurate or clear-thinking, but it may well be something like what she's mad about. 

_And a Very Small Voice in there is also her being mad at herself because she KNOWS she's a better person than this and she let herself commit adultery. That is actually a burden to bear...so part of it is her not wanting to admit she's mad at herself so she blames others. _ 

OKAY--so here's what you can do to help her. Put on a flame-retardant uniform (with helmet and goggles), and ask her if she'd be willing to go one-by-one through the things you did that she resents. Ask if she'd keep it to one at a time, and she doesn't have to "prove" what she means or how she feels, but it would be helpful for you to understand it better if she gave you an example of a time where she felt that way. She may be hesitant because my guess is that in the past when she tried something like this, it was met with a reply like: "No I didn't! You said this and this first, and that's what made me do that!" Soooooo...let her say one and give you her example, and no matter WHAT SHE SAYS, you repeat it back to her in your own terms and then say "Do I have it right?" or "Do I understand what you said?" If she says no then ask for clarification and if she says yes then say (memorize this...I'm serious): "THANK YOU FOR BEING HONEST. I APPRECIATE YOU OPENING UP TO ME LIKE THAT. I'M GOING TO THINK ABOUT WHAT YOU SAID, OKAY?" 

And then don't say anything else. Maybe give her a hug and then for real, go and think about what she said.


----------



## marksaysay

Affaircare, I can't say that I disagree with your assessment. I will say that, in my opinion, this is much more a spiritual battle than anything else. Looking back, I noticed she was gradually moving away from God. I found out, through some of my snooping, that when she went out on Halloween, she dressed as the devil. I didn't think much of it at the time but it has more significance than I thought.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Affaircare

Well any time there is an affair like this, in real life there is some spiritual warfare going on. I personally believe Satan will do what he can to trip up believers and lead them astray. Likewise, sometimes someone can be deceptive and put on an "act" for a while when in real life, they just are not a believer. So I would have to say that's a given. God's word is clear that adultery is not pleasing to Him; yet your wife clearly wants (or at least wanted) to do exactly what is displeasing to God. 

I will say though "Welcome to the human race"--we have all sinned so this doesn't make her worse and you better. It just IS. Our best weapon will be Micah 6:8 "...act justly and love mercy and to walk humbly with your God"


----------



## marksaysay

Affaircare said:


> Well any time there is an affair like this, in real life there is some spiritual warfare going on. I personally believe Satan will do what he can to trip up believers and lead them astray. Likewise, sometimes someone can be deceptive and put on an "act" for a while when in real life, they just are not a believer. So I would have to say that's a given. God's word is clear that adultery is not pleasing to Him; yet your wife clearly wants (or at least wanted) to do exactly what is displeasing to God.
> 
> I will say though "Welcome to the human race"--we have all sinned so this doesn't make her worse and you better. It just IS. Our best weapon will be Micah 6:8 "...act justly and love mercy and to walk humbly with your God"


I hope i didn't give you the impression that I think I'm better than she is. What I will say is that I'm definitely more spiritually mature but that doesn't make me better, maybe stronger. I just know that without her being led by God away from Satan and back to him, our reconciliation is highly unlikely. She is too busy thinking only about herself. She can't see the forest for the trees because she is too busy blaming me and criticizing me to examine herself and acknowledge her role in where we currently find our relationship. She did get mad at me today for telling her that I was still praying for and fighting for our marriage and family, although it now means more or less waiting on God to do whatever his will dictates he will do. I will continue to pray for her. 

I will say that tonight, she called stating that she had to take our daughter to ER for severe abdominal pain so I met them there. We were there for 2 1/2 hours and I managed to get her to laugh and smile at one point. We really didn't talk much other than that, although I tried. She spent a lot of time texting, but I didn't question her about it. Her mom told our pastor that she isn't doing any of the things she was doing earlier (I exposed to her mother). I'm not sure if this came from my wife or it's an assumption that was made, but i find it hard to believe. MIL told pastor that she really didn't like that I showed her the things that I showed her and that there are just some things she would not like to know. That's just a way of trying to run from her responsibility as a parent to address wrong, whether or not her adult daughter accepts it or not. I do know or believe that MIL didn't address it with my wife because I waited for that angry phone call but it never came. Oh well....


----------



## turnera

marksaysay said:


> MIL told pastor that she really didn't like that I showed her the things that I showed her and that there are just some things she would not like to know. That's just a way of trying to run from her responsibility as a parent to address wrong, whether or not her adult daughter accepts it or not. I do know or believe that MIL didn't address it with my wife because I waited for that angry phone call but it never came. Oh well....


 Does your wife know that you told her mom? That's the REAL point of exposure - her knowing that her important people know what she's doing wrong.

Remember the old saying, look at your fiance's mother, to see what you'll end up with...


----------



## Tanelornpete

> MIL told pastor that she really didn't like that I showed her the things that I showed her and that there are just some things she would not like to know. That's just a way of trying to run from her responsibility as a parent to address wrong, whether or not her adult daughter accepts it or not.


That is a fairly normal response, especially in a society with virtually no ethical basis for any choice. I might point out that a parent's 'responsibility' for their children is quite minimal once the child leaves home - and even more so when the child is married. The real responsibility to respond to her immoral actions is the authority she places herself under (voluntarily) when she joins a church. Then, the congregation has the responsibility to see that the membership lives in a way that is commensurate with their moral standards (in a Christian congregation, this would be the Scriptures, which have very specific steps listed for ways to help someone move away from an immoral behavior). 

Nothing you can do about her mom's behavior (nor hers, of course) but there is some that the church can do regarding her membership privileges. If the congregation is aware of her cheating, and pretends it is not happening, then a huge moral problem resides within that church! Burying its head in the sand is something addressed in 1 Cor 5:1-13. 

As for you: just keep on with what you are doing. She will notice - and will come to see the truth, even if it may be well down the road. You are doing well. Stick with Romans 12:2!


----------



## marksaysay

The entire church doesn't know. I didn't really want to expose her in that fashion but maybe I should've. Her infidelity was a one night stand when she went to visit a girlfriend 2 1/2 hours away. Since then, it's almost like she came back and has been in search of her next fling through many different avenues. I really don't know what to think anymore. She is just out there and there's nothing I can do but pray.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tanelornpete

> Her infidelity was a one night stand when she went to visit a girlfriend 2 1/2 hours away


Actually, her infidelity has been way more extensive: the searches for companions on 'dating' sites, texting and emailing other men, etc. The 'act' of sex is not the only possible permutation of infidelity (Matt. 5:28)- she's been unfaithful to you for quite a while - she has NOT been giving 100% of her loyalty and affection to her husband! The _searching_ is unfaithfulness as surely as is any physical act.

As for telling the whole church: my understanding is that this is the responsibility of the church authorities (elders, pastor, counsel, etc, depending on denomination) - see Matt 18:15-20).


----------



## marksaysay

This morning, wife called about something to do with cell phones and wouldn't even allow me to explain anything. She starts talking about me invading her privacy which is how I found out about her activities. She started talking about how she would be mean until I gave her what she wanted. I just told her I wouldn't retaliate and that I would continue to fight and pray for our family. She continues with the "I don't want to be with you ou love you" talk and continue to blame me for everything. I eventually told her I was ending the conversation and hung up. She called back trying to explain more of her plans. She says that none of her family think less of her because of her actions. Maybe I shouldn't have but I replied that it was because they've all done the same thing. She hung up. I thought that was funny, but I'm not discouraged or sad, though. Whatever will happen will happen but that doesn't mean that I have to stop. At this point, I'm not really doing anything other than being the best me I can be. One day she will come to realize that she made a mistake if the divorce goes through. One day she will have to face up to how mean and vindictive she's been. Unfortunately, it will probably be too late. I'm a good man although I've made my fair share of mistakes. I've done nothing but love her and I continue to do so even in her current state of mind. She won't really realize what she had until it's gone. I just continue to pray and wait.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Are you filing for divorce?


----------



## marksaysay

She has already filed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Then just ignore her. Don't take her calls. She is now an acquaintance. Let her see what single feels like.


----------



## marksaysay

So today we were supposed have the RO hearing (she claims my snooping was stalking and has conjured up and twisted some other events). We get there and we were told by judge that it had to be rescheduled along with the divorce hearing because he taught my wife in college. I don't believe in chance but I do believe in divine intervention. I don't know what's gonna happen down the road but I do know that my wife today found out that she was not in total control. She didn't like it very much. I will continue to be prayerful and stay on my course. 

The funny thing about the RO is since she filed and even before, she has been the one calling me. She even invited me to come over for Christmas but I declined. She has been to my apartment, although I made her stand outside. She now gets mad that I won't accept her phone calls. This sounds nothing more than someone who wants things her way. She can contact me, but she doesn't want me to contact her. She's just trying to manipulate and bully me into giving her what she wants, an easy and quick divorce, but I will not be bullied. I'm a fairly small guy (5'10", 160lbs) and I learned how to deal with bullies years ago. Fight them. In this situation, I, of course, don't mean literally, but I'm not gonna give in. The thing I also learned about bullies is they soon respect you more for your unwillingness to back down. I can only hope that happens here, but who knows.


----------



## rome2012

marksaysay said:


> The thing I also learned about bullies is they soon respect you more for your unwillingness to back down.


That's interesting....

Maybe I should pin that to my mirror because I come to realize my (ex?)husband might be bullying me by stringing me along "Wanting his cake and eating it too" and as your wife, wanting everything his way....

Maybe he will really fall back in love with me once he finds respect for me again.....

:scratchhead:  :scratchhead:


----------



## turnera

rome2012 said:


> That's interesting....
> 
> Maybe I should pin that to my mirror because I come to realize my (ex?)husband might be bullying me by stringing me along "Wanting his cake and eating it too" and as your wife, wanting everything his way....
> 
> Maybe he will really fall back in love with me once he finds respect for me again.....
> 
> :scratchhead:  :scratchhead:


 The key would be when he realizes that YOU realize that you don't NEED him, and are WILLING to live without him. Suddenly, you become more interesting.


----------



## Affaircare

Please go out today and buy a little Dayplanner type calendar, and DOCUMENT all the times she has contacted you, called, emailed, been to the house, etc. If you have been documenting on a calendar all along, it is admissible in court (you'd have to give them the whole calendar), and it will show a pattern that SHE is contacting YOU and is clearly not "threatened" by you or afraid of you. Likewise you can show, by documentation, that you have not been contacting her.


----------



## marksaysay

I have already started compiling that info. I am remaining to be steadfast in prayer. I'm struggling in so many ways right now, it's unreal. Marriage dying or dead. Not enough money at the end of the month. Car problems. Not being able to see my daughter. No money to continue fun activities. Marital home behind. I'm a mess, but I'll get through it. Don't know how or when but I will get through. All of this while things seem to be so smooth for her. It really sucks.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tanelornpete

Psalm 73, Romans 8:28....


----------



## turnera

What fun activities are you missing out on?


----------



## marksaysay

Due to the lack of finances, I may have to drop out of my pool league and probably the bowling league we share. I just can't afford it anymore. During this time, I've also learned how few friends I have. As a fairly young African-American minister (35 yo) who lives in a place with no relatives and far from where I grew up, it has been difficult to find others who didn't want to party, drink, smoke weed, chase women, and all of that stuff. I know I'm not perfect, nor will I claim to be, but there just are a few things that I can't compromise. I'm not sure if it's that I don't want to be around them so much as they don't want to be around me. I have a few guys that I know pretty well, but all they want to do is drink and hang out to the wee hours at various bars. That's just not me. There are a few church members that I've hung out with, but they are all 50+. I really just feel alone. Again, this sucks, but I'm dealing with it the best I can.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Minister, huh? Hmmm...let me think.

Have you looked into bartering? Do you have any hobbies or skills that you can get some extra money through? For instance, my DH is a audio/video electronics whiz; if I could get him to, I would like him to go out and do consultations on people's home theater setups for a small fee. Or build some of the things he used to make, like a lighted console, or a pachinko game, stuff like that, for sale.

I mean, seriously, what have you got now but time on your hands? Does your town have something like a town website, where you can advertise for free or little money? Think of things you can do or make that would get you some side cash.


----------



## turnera

As for friends, let the web be your friend. Check craigslist for things going on in your area; join a book club or find a board game club and start going. Or volunteer to mentor some kids; Lord knows there's plenty of need for that! You might even meet a nice woman that way. (DOWN THE ROAD!)

Anyway, be creative.


----------



## notreadytoquit

Not to throw the topic of this thread off, but I joined a single parents group in my town. We have tons of activities for both the kids and adults. I met a lot of new friends since Aug 2010 when I came back to Canada. I found the group on Do something, Learn something, Share something, Change something - Meetup There you can find different groups with different interests anywhere in the world.


----------



## Affaircare

I concur with notready's thought. After my divorce I joined a Fisher "Rebuilding When Your Relationship Ends" seminar and I met a bunch of people who had been through the same thing I had, who understood, etc. Some wanted to party and hook up (hey that's what people do now) but some were adults and just wanted to meet some folks...like me!

Also I don't know what your personality type is, marksaysay, but I myself am an introvert and don't really like "going out"--the noise and lights are sort of exhausting to me. So I have a ton of friends online and I play WOW with family on our family guild...and I come here and get to know some folks. You know, not all friends are "IRL"


----------



## marksaysay

Affaircare said:


> I concur with notready's thought. After my divorce I joined a Fisher "Rebuilding When Your Relationship Ends" seminar and I met a bunch of people who had been through the same thing I had, who understood, etc. Some wanted to party and hook up (hey that's what people do now) but some were adults and just wanted to meet some folks...like me!
> 
> Also I don't know what your personality type is, marksaysay, but I myself am an introvert and don't really like "going out"--the noise and lights are sort of exhausting to me. So I have a ton of friends online and I play WOW with family on our family guild...and I come here and get to know some folks. You know, not all friends are "IRL"


I am currently working full time and going to school full time so that keeps me pretty busy. I am now at the point where I'm prepared for the end of my marriage while I still hold on to a thread of hope knowing that God can turn things around if it be his will. I will continue to pray for her. I do think I will have to make some changes as I don't believe I can still remain at the same church and see her week after week. I can see her for our daughters sake but I don't know if I can deal with the questions from members about what happened and so forth. I don't thInk I can continue to get the cold shoulder from her mother who also goes there. I didn't make this choice and I'm tired of feeling like I have the plague. I have not done anything other than love her throughout this. Our dates for both the divorce and RO have been reset in a week or so. Unless divine intervention occurs, I will be single in a month or so. Anything can happen.....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## marksaysay

Nothing new to really report other than my coming to realize how few friends I have and how difficult it is to do things to keep mind off of situation when you have no money. Yesterday was pretty rough not really having anything to do on my day off from work. I did some school work, had devotional time, practiced on the keyboard, did some laundry, but had no actual interaction with others. Im learning that my wife was really my best friend. I missed hanging out with my family all day long. If something were to change and another chance is given to me, oh so how different things would be. I've always been aware of my issues and know that I need to make changes, and many have been made, at least the ones I can do by myself. Just trying to take day by day. Our real problem is not and has not been my unwillingness to change or acknowledge my flaws, it's that wife hasn't and won't address hers. Will she ever? Who knows. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Um...didn't I give you a bunch of suggestions recently on how to get a life? What are you doing about it?


----------



## marksaysay

I've looked on the events calendars of the local newspaper, the county website, craigslist, and others. There isn't anything out there that I'm even remotely interested in. There are dances and bingo and dinner parties for $30 a plate. There are Texas Holdem tourneys but I won't do those. I've searched for support groups as was also suggested with no luck. Right now, although I am a full-time student (classes m, w, & th 6-9pm, other class done online) that also works full time, I would love to break from everything and just be able to talk to someone. It's funny because I think a lot of our recent problems are due to my hectic school schedule. I went back at the urging of my wife, and because I'm being funded by unemployment office (was laid off for 6 months) I have to go full time until completion. There is only so much reading and keyboard playing a person can do. I can't afford even basic cable right now so that's not an option. It'll get better sooner or later, preferably sooner.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

I'm confused. You're a minister, but you were laid off?


----------



## turnera

fwiw, sounds like an excuse to me. There are people right outside your door. You just have to go out and meet them.


----------



## turnera

If you live in an apartment building, print out a Block Party flier and go door to door and invite everyone to attend. Then just go to the appointed place (per your invite) at the appointed time, bring a book in case no one comes, and wait. BTDT - and at least one or two people always show up, sometimes 30.


----------



## Affaircare

turnera said:


> I'm confused. You're a minister, but you were laid off?


:lol: Turnera, you're cute. I bet this will make more sense. A person can go through seminary and get a ministerial degree (like a doctorate in theology, or a masters in discipleship ministry). That can give someone the right to call themselves a minister or reverend. Then after seminary some churches or denominations have a minister pass like certification testing basically. That would also give them the right to call themselves a minister or reverend. Some ministers are like a "Youth Minister" or "Music Minister" or a "Counseling Pastor" and although they have the training, there's no church hiring a music minister at the time...so technically they're laid off. And lots of times someone is a "Music Minister" for a living but supplements that with a part-time job, etc. So you can be laid off from that part-time job too!


----------



## marksaysay

I'm an ordained minister but not a pastor. I have a full time job until God sees fit to do something else with me. As far as the party goes, my party days are gone, especially in that type of setting. I don't mind a small, controlled gathering, but not interested in a block party. In addition, it's 20 degrees outside.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## notreadytoquit

Did you check Meetup? Trust me there are groups for anything and everything, anywhere on the planet. This is NOT a dating website.

Do something, Learn something, Share something, Change something - Meetup


----------



## 827Aug

marksaysay,

I completely understand what you are describing. I've been in the same boat for a long time too. At least I have my family to keep me company. I really think everyone assumes we all have access to plenty of free social venues. We don't. For example, everyone on this site keeps pushing "meet ups". There are very few in my area...and due to lack of funds, I can't drive 100 miles to get to one of the darn things. Trust me; if I had plenty of money (& were healthy), I could find plenty of social activities.

Wishing you the best.


----------



## marksaysay

notreadytoquit said:


> Did you check Meetup? Trust me there are groups for anything and everything, anywhere on the planet. This is NOT a dating website.
> 
> Do something, Learn something, Share something, Change something - Meetup


Just check. Nothing there other than reptile lovers, pagans, and colt fans (i live in indiana but from Texas...Go Cowboys). Something will give sooner or later. Thanks for the idea.


----------



## jonny

I didn't read all 17 pages. I think I read up to about 8 - then this last page.

A lot of what I read was you trying to work on something she doesn't want to work on. The self help / divorce books, the affaircare 7 steps website - While all very good information I'm sure - also probably takes into account the other individuals willingness to try and work things out.

You're not a failure as a man if things don't work out. Let me change that - you're not a failure even though things are not working out, and you are getting a divorce.

Focus on you, focus on being the best father you can be considering the circumstances, Be polite to your ex, but don't feed into what you don't need to. Don't get involved / tangled in her web. She wants to be an adult and discuss something that pertains to your daughter - great. She wants to blame you for something - get mad or angry - tell her that you'll be happy to hear her out when she wants to talk to you like an adult - not lecture you like a child.

Go to the gym, get in shape - All this talk about God. God gave us these bodies that have the ability to transform and strengthen when they're met with greater and greater resistance, They get stronger by what they go through. Just like you - you'll be stronger because of the experiences you've had - the trials you face.

Be the strong man God intended you to be.
Physically, Mentally.

Join a co-ed group. ultimate frisbee, volleyball, badminton, soccer, reading group, recreational hockey - anything.

Try that meetup site - look for something you're interested in. Even if it's building model rockets - get together with some guys. Befriend some guys - go have a beer. ( Or a club soda with Cranberry - ) just get out of the house.

Work on you.

You'll always have a relationship with your ex. Its up to you to mold and define that type of relationship, b/c from what I've seen - she's not mature enough to take it in the right direction / the healthy direction for your daughter.

If she's still doing this crap when your daughter is 21, an adult, able to make her own choices. Cut the string if it's more pain than it is pleasure.

Or earlier.

When you can talk to your daughter as an adult and explain what you are doing.

Good luck with everything man. Good luck.


----------



## marksaysay

827Aug said:


> marksaysay,
> 
> I completely understand what you are describing. I've been in the same boat for a long time too. At least I have my family to keep me company. I really think everyone assumes we all have access to plenty of free social venues. We don't. For example, everyone on this site keeps pushing "meet ups". There are very few in my area...and due to lack of funds, I can't drive 100 miles to get to one of the darn things. Trust me; if I had plenty of money (& were healthy), I could find plenty of social activities.
> 
> Wishing you the best.


That's what sucks about it. All my family is 1000 miles away. I came here and met her so I decided to stay. There is just no adequate social places that allow me to be comfortable as a minister. I don't party or drink so bars are out. I know sooner or later, something will give. everyday has it's own set of challenges so i just continue to press on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

marksaysay said:


> I'm an ordained minister but not a pastor. I have a full time job until God sees fit to do something else with me. As far as the party goes, my party days are gone, especially in that type of setting. I don't mind a small, controlled gathering, but not interested in a block party. In addition, it's 20 degrees outside.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Still sounds like excuses. I think you're enjoying feeling sorry for yourself. A lot of us do that; I did, for 30 years. The payoff is not having to blame ourselves for our own unhappiness. Then I got tired of being a victim who no one was rescuing, so I got off my butt and started changing my OWN life.

I'm a Lutheran, and we can't get pastors ordained fast enough. So I guess that's why it seems weird to me. Ours are all already farmed out to churches before they even graduate seminary.

As far as the block party, I'm not sure what kind of party you are envisioning. The ones I've thrown and/or attended usually involve each family or person bringing something to eat or drink, which we put on a table so everyone can share; the kids bring their toys and play together. And the adults talk. And if the weather's bad, we all just agree to go into someone's house and continue it (solves the cold problem, eh?). Usually they don't even have any alcohol present, just cokes and tea.


----------



## marksaysay

Had a talk with my pastor yesterday. The discussion started with my wife's activities and how "her mind is so foggy" as he put it. He pretty much told me nothing can be done to stop her because she is so wrapped up in what she's doing, knows its wrong but won't stop. he said she will probably regret all of this sooner or later when she comes out of her fog and back to reality, but will I be there when she does is the question? Only God knows.

On another note, I also mentioned to him that I think I'll start visiting some other churches. I don't know if it will be permanent or what, but it really is hard on me seeing her every week and having to deal with all of the questions and comments from others. She said she would leave months ago but didn't, so maybe I should. He told me he doesn't believe God would want me to do that but to stay. I don't know if i can deal with that. Does God want me to put myself through the torture of being around my stbxw when i don't have to be? Does he want me to endure all of the questions and comments that will do nothing but increase or prolong the heartbreak of the situation?


----------



## turnera

Are you talking about questions and comments from other people? If so, you ARE telling them the truth, right?


----------



## marksaysay

no, not those kind of questions. nobody but her mother, pastor, a couple of people really close to know. it's the comments like "divorce happens" or "you don't need her" or "maybe she's not the one for you". That's not the most uplifting or encouraging when you are still in love with someone. I take it with a grain of salt, but I don't want to hear it from people week in a week out. if those kinds of questions did come, YES, i would tell the truth.


----------



## 827Aug

I think people say those phrases simply because they don't know what else to say. They want to appear supportive. Yet, they really don't want to get involved. Many of those people now find themselves in an awkward position. I've been there too.

Since you have no family support system nearby, I really think you need to remain in the same church. Besides, you have nothing to be ashamed of. Your wife is the one with the problem. When I get hesitant about going to certain events, my brothers are very quick to point that fact out to me. They tell me to go to the event or place with my head held high.....that I did nothing to bring shame to my family or self....and that I have every right to be there. And it does get easier after time. 

I've given more thought to your situation and I've got a couple of suggestions for the social aspect of your situation. I actually think it could be a good thing for you to visit other churches. Perhaps attend some of their services in addition to your own church--like Sunday evenings or Wednesdays evenings, etc. It would also be a good opportunity to network. Also, how about becoming a mentor? I know many areas do have mentoring programs to work with problem teens and disadvantaged youths. This might be another way for God to work through you.

Hang in there! Sometimes waiting on God is the hardest thing.


----------



## marksaysay

827Aug said:


> I think people say those phrases simply because they don't know what else to say. They want to appear supportive. Yet, they really don't want to get involved. Many of those people now find themselves in an awkward position. I've been there too..


Yeah, that's pretty much what I figured, too, but it doesn't make me feel any better. I still love her so much and knowing that I will no longer be her husband makes it really difficult. Did you and your spouse stay at the same church? 



827Aug said:


> Since you have no family support system nearby, I really think you need to remain in the same church. Besides, you have nothing to be ashamed of. Your wife is the one with the problem. When I get hesitant about going to certain events, my brothers are very quick to point that fact out to me. They tell me to go to the event or place with my head held high.....that I did nothing to bring shame to my family or self....and that I have every right to be there. And it does get easier after time.


I don't feel guilty about anything. Yes, I had the porn issue that has been addressed and one that I've been pretty open about. It's not like going to our daughter's gymnastics showcases or her softball games where no one really knows us or anything about us. It's easy at those type of events to get lost in the crowd. That's not the case at church. We've been there for 11+ years and they all know us, although some better than others. 




827Aug said:


> I've given more thought to your situation and I've got a couple of suggestions for the social aspect of your situation. I actually think it could be a good thing for you to visit other churches. Perhaps attend some of their services in addition to your own church--like Sunday evenings or Wednesdays evenings, etc. It would also be a good opportunity to network. Also, how about becoming a mentor? I know many areas do have mentoring programs to work with problem teens and disadvantaged youths. This might be another way for God to work through you.


Right now, my school schedule keeps me pretty busy until the weekends come. If I have my daughter that weekend, I'm fine, but it's the other weekends that are pretty rough. I go and visit a couple of church members that i'm close to, but that's it. I would have to try to find out about the mentoring...it could be a good thing for me to do.



827Aug said:


> Hang in there! Sometimes waiting on God is the hardest thing.


Yes, it is. I know that whatever happens is what God wills. I know that sooner or later, he will come through and bless me financially in his timing because God knows I need it. I know that He will eventually get her attention. Whether or not that is for the purpose of bringing us back together is really irrelevant. Is it my desire? Yes! Is it what God wants? Only He knows. I will continue to wait.


----------



## jonny

I probably wouldn't have posted if I had read the entire thread / this new stuff! Sorry if I stepped on any toes or went against any beliefs / spiritual direction!

Question - Are you allowed to go in bars / pubs / lounges?
Since I'm getting in shape - I avoid alcohol. Bars around here will actually give you free beverages if you claim you're the designated driver. ( Which I am, if I think anyones had to much to drive. )

Also saying that - pub food can be delicious!

I know I didn't step on any toes by suggesting physical fitness. You in shape? Strong? Fit? Doing so would boost confidence in oneself, and it's using a gift from God, your body, treating it well. Not abusing it and taking it / life for granted.

( That sounds like guilting you - it's not. haha. )

Change of church is probably a great idea. Get away from seeing her when you don't have to. Make new church buddies, get some more friends a support system or even mental diversion.

Like I said before - I wish you the best of luck!


----------



## turnera

jonny, the best food I've ever had was at a pub. And it was half the price of a regular restaurant! Pork chops more than an inch thick!


----------



## 827Aug

marksaysay said:


> Yeah, that's pretty much what I figured, too, but it doesn't make me feel any better. I still love her so much and knowing that I will no longer be her husband makes it really difficult. Did you and your spouse stay at the same church?


Unfortunately, from 1998 to 2008 my estranged husband and I found ourselves enslave to a business working seven days each week. We didn't have time for church or family. I began going to a nice church out of town in 2009. My spouse by this time was doing nothing but partying and swinging--about as far from God as he could get.

Sadly, I did have to stop going to that particular church in May 2010 when things were at their worst. Our banker also went to that church. He wasn't very nice when our business was going under. Things got out of hand outside of Church. Therefore, I couldn't go back. I do talk to the minister from time to time though. And I really haven't had the motivation to seek another church yet.


----------



## marksaysay

My w/stbxw and I both still attend same church. She grew up there and i joined after my relocation 11 yrs ago. She said she would leave 2 months ago. She said she would step down from her position as clerk, although at our pastors request, she is currently not acting clerk but still has the title. She has done none of that so it may just force me to do so for my sanity, however, things did change a little yesterday. It was brought to my attention that a friend of a member of the church saw wife's profile on dating site and asked if she was divorced. The reply was no and the friend became angry that she is honestly seeking a companion and my wife is being dishonest on the same site. Found out other church members are also aware of it through their family members and friends on the site. I went to pastor and asked to finish the biblical plan for handling such matters since we've followed all the other steps and since she has not stopped like she said. He refused stating that she wouldn't listen so there was no use. Then said she may reply that she asked for dvorce 2 months ago and how do we respond. My issue is 1) the lack of him wanting to follow the Word & 2) me being the bad guy for fighting for my family and marriage. Who cares if she asked for the divorce. That doesn't make her actions acceptable. In this day and time, is there anyone willing to take a hard stand against wrong for what I'd right?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

If you're thinking of leaving anyway, why not start raising a stink there? Let them ALL know what she has done and is now doing. Even if it doesn't get her back, it may put a plug in her plans and make it a little harder for her to continue on this path without repercussions.

What's the worst that will happen? They kick you out? You were leaving anyway. At least SHE won't end up looking like the victim.


----------



## marksaysay

I don't want to cause a stink. I'm not trying to embarass my wife. My plan to leave church is something I think I need temporarily to allow me time to adjust and heal without the well-meaning but feeble attempts at comforting me. I understand that following the bible's plan may make her mad. I understand that it might further damage our chances of reconciliation. But I also know that there is no us until she is repentant and sorry for her actions. I just dont understand why everybody is so set on not making her mad. Maybe that's what she needs in order for her to really take a good look at herself. As I believe Tanelorne stated, our marriage can survive her anger but not other men.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## marksaysay

Okay, with daughter with me this weekend, I decided to go to another church today. Pastor knew about it but wife didn't. She showed up, realized we weren't there, and asked pastor if he knew. He told her I went somewhere else. She tried to call but I didn't answer because it was during service. She did stay at church for about 20 minutes (several people called and told me) but left. This proves to me even more about how lost she is. Why does it bother her that I or we weren't there? Why did she have to leave? Why couldn't she just stay and enjoy service by herself? Makes me wonder....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 827Aug

It does, indeed, sound as though she does care. This is especially interesting since she keeps alleging you are the one pursuing her. Wasn't she the one requesting a restraining order at one time? It's not adding up. I think you may be on to something.


----------



## marksaysay

Yeah, the restraining order is simply an attempt to manipulate me into giving in and just giving her what she wants. She is not nor has she ever been afraid of me. Im just a boxer who is not ready to throw in the towel. I do and always have felt she still cares despite what she's said and done. I've also felt that she is just spiritually disconnected. This was evident by her not remaining at church today because we weren't there. Us not being there should not have determined whether or not she stayed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

She doesn't care if YOU are happy and had to leave church.

She worries that SHE looked bad and feared that people were talking about her.

That is all.

Until you stop making excuses for her, she will continue to 'win.'

Because you have no balls.


----------



## marksaysay

Turnera, I don't really appreciate the tone especially with your last statement. How am I making excuses for her? How is she 'winning'? If I were a betting man, I would say she left to go find out where I was. She has told me over and over that she doesn't care anymore but her actions show otherwise. She even texted me to wish me a happy bday a few weeks back. It was funny because the text included reasons why she was doing it as if to justify and cover up her feelings.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Sorry for being rude but you 'wanted' her to leave the church. She didn't. Then you did...what?

You did nothing.

She KNOWS you will do nothing. That's why she cheated on you. That's why she continues to flaunt it in front of you and all the church. 

She has had no consequences. Does she care about you? Of course she does. But she has no respect for you, because you are not respecting yourself. That is what people mean when they say around here that you have no cajones.

Have you read No More Mr. Nice Guy?

I really think you would benefit from it. It would give you the courage to address her NOT leaving your church when she said she would (and hasn't because YOU haven't forced the issue).


----------



## SurprisedinME

Hi, just read your whole thread. 

A few comments:

Following a Biblical plan is good...the best, in my opinion. That's not going to drive her away. That's your hope for reconciliation. Can I assume that's just fear talking when you made that comment?

These other plans - carrot and stick, 180, etc etc are all good and solid...they are really doing the same thing. And they focus on you doing work on yourself. And they WORK! Really, they do. It's hard but it works. 

You seemed to be very solid and gung ho on the plans and moving forward in one direction and then that falters. Which I get, I faltered all the time. I prayed and cried and cried and prayed so much. I sent freak out texts to the few I trusted to hold me on course. My friends were not close by (actually all of them were far away) but they were reachable by phone and they helped me. 

Going out, staying home, doesn't matter, IMO. I strongly feel you are missing support for staying on course. This board is amazing, but maybe get some key people, even one or two, in your offline life, who understand and accept where you are and your goals. My friends would not have held onto their marriages like I did, but they accepted that I was, and they continue to support and encourage me.


So where are you now? With everything?


----------



## 827Aug

Clearly no one has all the answers. Keep praying and ask God for guidance. I honestly think your wife is beginning to feel some alienation because of her decisions. If that leads to some humility on her part, hopefully she will find God again.


----------



## marksaysay

827Aug said:


> Clearly no one has all the answers. Keep praying and ask God for guidance. I honestly think your wife is beginning to feel some alienation because of her decisions. If that leads to some humility on her part, hopefully she will find God again.


You are exactly right. No one has all the answers. I do know and I'm convinced of a couple of things. 

1) God's will will ultimately be accomplished no matter what we do or don't do.
2) Contrary to what she has said and done, I know there is still love there. 
3) Some of the things I've done have had an affect on her, maybe not as much as I would like. 

What I think I need to do is spend less time on here hoping to find the magic that will turn things around and allow God to do whatever he's gonna do. I, from the beginning, have felt that it would happen, I just don't know when or how. From the beginning, I felt it was less about what I've done and more about what she's doing. I think getting on here regularly to vent or seek advice has actually hurt me more than it has helped so I'm gonna take some time off and see what happens. I appreciate all the assistance and help. I will continue on my path of self-improvement and my commitment to doing what's right. It may work out and it may not. I'll have to deal with either outcome and I WILL. 
4)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## marksaysay

Well, its been a little more than 5 months since all of this started. I have made a lot of progress, but there is no change in wife. I don't know what she's been doing but I do know that she's been caught in several lies and has been very manipulative in trying to get certain things to go the way she wants. I started out by asking about the "fog" and most would have said that it could last anywhere from 6 months or longer. I just wish things were different now. I've been having a lot more good days than bad days, but i can say that my emotions take a huge hit on Friday nights when we bowl on the team we started. It wouldn't be so bad, I don't think, if she didn't spend the whole night texting every week. I know it should not be my concern, but she still is my wife and it only causes me to wonder who she texting, especially since I don't know. I used to be able to see the numbers on our bill but that was seperated months ago so I am now in the dark on that. I think she does it really to try to irritate me but I won't let it. The same thing happens every week until Friday. I don't see her nor do I talk to her and then Friday comes and all those emotions come back. Then there is also Sunday at church (when she decides to come). I try to keep my distance from her but she always finds a reason to seek me out for something. 

As far as the proceedings, our Final Hearing was last Friday, but it ended up not being the final. We were ordered to mediation because we couldn't come to any agreement on several things. I know some of you may wonder why'd we wait until then? Well, I'd tried to talk to her about the logistics on a couple of occasions, without any mention of my feelings for her or wanting to work on the marriage, just business. She would always take the conversation somewhere else by stating things like "understand that I no longer want to be with you" or "I don't love you anymore" and I never even went there. When I would ask where those statements came from given our current topic, she would simply say she could talk about whatever she wanted to talk about. So after those attempts, I stopped trying. She was extremely mad that we are not divorced yet, as was expected, but maybe more time is what is needed for this "fog" to start to wear off. 

Throughout all of this, I've became a much better person having learned so much about so many different things. I just wish she would just wake up and accept that she has some flaws that need to be fixed. I wish she would stop blaming me for things that aren't my fault like her excessive drinking (She said being with me almost turned her into an alcoholic). I wish she would seek help for some of her childhood issues (she was sexually abused as child which explains her stance on my pornography issue). 

I don't know what the future holds and I may be grasping at straws trying find a simple piece of evidence of a possible future reconciliation. Yes, I still love my wife. Yes, I would love to renew and rebuild our relationship knowing that my changes alone would make things different. But I also know that until she recognizes that she has her own issues to work on, she won't do anything. Unless she wants to work on our relationship, my desire alone will not do anything. I will just keep pushing ahead.


----------



## turnera

You will never get her out of the fog while she still has another man. If you're not willing to do what it takes to find this other man and expose him, you can't expect any other outcome but for her to be in a hurry to get rid of you.


----------



## Affaircare

marksaysay said:


> Throughout all of this, I've became a much better person having learned so much about so many different things. I just wish she would just wake up and accept that *she has some flaws that need to be fixed*. I wish she would stop blaming me for things that aren't my fault like her excessive drinking (She said being with me almost turned her into an alcoholic). I wish she would seek help for some of her childhood issues (she was sexually abused as child which explains her stance on my pornography issue).
> 
> I don't know what the future holds and I may be grasping at straws trying find a simple piece of evidence of a possible future reconciliation. Yes, I still love my wife. Yes, I would love to renew and rebuild our relationship knowing that my changes alone would make things different. But I also know that *until she recognizes that she has her own issues to work on,* she won't do anything. Unless she wants to work on our relationship, my desire alone will not do anything. I will just keep pushing ahead.


Marksaysay~

Turnera has a point in what she says, _"You will never get her out of the fog while she still has another man... you can't expect any other outcome but for her to be in a hurry to get rid of you"_ but in addition to the part she has so clearly stated (i.e., no progress will be made in the marriage as long as there is still an affair), there is another part that has not been spoken. A loyal spouse can do all the steps, and in order, and correctly (namely: Gather Evidence, Confront, Disclose, Expose, Carrot&Stick, Consequences/No Contact, Legal Separation) and despite all their efforts, still end up divorced. Know why? 

Because at some point, what we call "the fog" starts as smoke and mirrors and is not the disloyal's character...but as more time goes on and more time passes by, their heart hardens more and more and it BECOMES part of their character. In the past your wife may have been a pretty honest, thoughtful, reasonable woman and with the onset of "the fog" she was cast into a lifestyle that was contrary to her usual, past character. BUT as she continues to live a life that is dishonest, based on fantasy and not reality, self-centered, and irrational...she will gradually become that way. It becomes her new character. 

Her heart hardens and she does not "face the fact that she has her own issues to work on" (as you so correctly worded it) because if she were to do so, she would have to put aside her pride, admit that what she did was wrong, AND FACE HERSELF AND HER ISSUES HEAD ON...and that is more scary to her than having to face losing you. As a Christian, you also know that she would have to do something similar to make herself right with God, and again, having to do that and face herself is not something she's willing to do right now. So her heart grows hard and these are the character qualities she has chosen to embrace rather than her former character, and it does slowly become "the new her."

So I remind you of a verse. *1 Corinthians 7:15* (NIV 2011): _"But if the unbeliever leaves, let it be so. The brother or the sister is not bound in such circumstances; God has called us to live in peace."_


----------



## marksaysay

So what do I do? Do I hack into accounts? Do I send proof to more family members? I only told her mom and her cousin...Do I expose to more people from church? I showed pastor but he simply says let God deal with her...

I totally agree with the 2 posts above and the more I think about it, it really kinda makes me mad that people simply have brushed things under the rug as if nothing is happening. MIL says that's just kinda what happens. FIL's side of family thinks nothing is wrong, with the exception of FIL's wife who has been in my wife's life for over 30 years. Wife won't even talk to her because she knows what she'll get. People at church know that something is wrong by her lack of attendence. She has never missed church so much in the 10+ years we've been together, so everyone at the least understands that there is something not right. They just don't know all the details. 

How do I go about things now? We're seperated and I no longer have access to her computer, her cell phone account, or her email, etc. The stuff i do have is a couple of months old. Who do I go to? Pastor? Done that? Mother and father? Done that? A close family friend? Wife was standoffish and mean. I don't really think there is anyone left. Pastor says following the bible plan from Matthew is only 2/3 good. He didn't want to do the final step. I don't know what I can do. I'm not really crying over the situation or anything but I atleast thought that given the proof that some people are aware of, someone would do or say something. Everybody seems to be afraid of making her mad or either they don't care that she's doing it, i.e. MIL & FIL. The common statement I get is to just let her do what she's doing and sooner or later she will crash and burn, so to speak. As far as my marriage is concerned, I just don't agree with that. Especially from the Christian perspective with all of the teachings about bearing one another's burdens, and going to get lost sheep, and lovingly addressing a fellow believer who's caught up in sin (all paraphrases).


----------



## Affaircare

> So what do I do?


Tell me if I'm wrong, but before I make suggestions I want to be sure I factually understand what has already happened and where you stand now. Okay?

First, you had an issue with porn. This contributed to the issues in the marriage, and you yourself admitted this and have addressed it consistently for many months if not years. 

Second, your wife does not have "one man" she is having an affair with, but rather has signed up on several "dating services" as single (although you two are not divorced), flirts online and via texts with several people, and generally lives an overall unfaithful lifestyle (such as flirty Facebook or Myspace, etc. ) rather than a specific OM. 

Third, you did disclose to your pastor, who has told you some wise council, but then failed to enforce Galatians 6:1 "Brothers and sisters, if someone is caught in a sin, you who live by the Spirit should restore that person gently. But watch yourselves, or you also may be tempted" and Matthew 18:17 "...If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector." [In other words I personally believe he should have spoken to the elders, and the elders should have spoken to her, and then if she would not end her unfaithfulness and be reconciled to her husband, they should have enforced church discipline.] 

Fourth, you did expose to her mom and her cousin (the family that she has) and they have all committed adultery and cheated on each other, so they don't see what she has done as "wrong." Thus, you've exposed and in this instance the family is choosing to not support the marriage. 

Fifth, you've done Carrot&Stick (aka "Plan A") and Consequences/No Contact (aka "Plan B") and this is where you basically are today--although your No Contact is not really *NO CONTACT* because you see her at church and talk to her...and you still go to bowling league with her. To this point none of these steps has made an impact on her choices, but each of the steps has had an impact ON YOU. Thus, although the two of you are not recovering your marriage, you, as a person, absolutely have recovered and grown from the experience as a man and as a husband. 

Are those the basic facts--where we stand today?



> Do I hack into accounts?


Please see this sticky post about my response to that question: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...isloyal-you-being-controlling.html#post238370 . I can not see any positive in doing more hacking and spying, other than to drive you nuts. You do know you are not being told the full truth, but this is already established as fact. Thus there is no need to prove that you're being lied to--you know that! If she were to choose to reconcile, of her own free will, SHE would have to choose to stop lying, and SHE would have to make the effort to demonstrate her honesty to you in word and in matching actions. So at this point it's on her. You know you are being lied to, you know she is not giving you 100% of her affection and loyalty, you have made the choice to be "open to" reconciliation if she were to be, and now SHE has to make the choice to choose to reconcile and demonstrate her honesty. Otherwise you are safe to assume that you can not trust in her honesty. Period. No need for more hacking.



> Do I send proof to more family members? I only told her mom and her cousin...


The idea of exposure is to shine the light of The Truth on the infidelity and to inform people who are likely to be affected by the divorce (so they are not told a pack of lies from the disloyal). Thus, if you have only told her mom and her cousin, you'll probably want to tell your own family (parents and siblings--if you have them) so that they can support you and in order to assure that they aren't told the disloyal version of "We're getting a divorce because I loved him but I could not stand his abuse any longer." You may also want to tell your own employer or student advisor if you're in school because it's pretty likely you'll have a few "bad days" or may need extra "time off" for court dates, and if they know, they'll probably be a bit more understanding. 

HOWEVER, as far as exposure goes, I don't see how further exposure would be helpful at this point. She does not have a singular "OM" with whom she's committing adultery, so you don't have OMW or OM's parents to contact, and contacting everyone who responds to her singles ad is akin to stalking-type behavior. It would be vengeance to talk to her employer (if there is one) because it's not a work-affair or using company resources (thus again it would be closer to stalking). And her pastor already knows of her behavior and is not actively addressing her sin. Yes I said it: sin. 



> Do I expose to more people from church? I showed pastor but he simply says let God deal with her...


You know, this one is a little complicated, and I'll speak to you here invoking the right of speaking to a brother in Christ, not just as if I'm speaking to a non-christian or an anonymous person on a forum, okay? So note to self: this is said assuming that we both hold to a Christian worldview. 

I absolutely do agree with "...let God deal with her" because to be honest, marksaysay, she is HIS and was only loaned to you from Him anyway. It is arrogance to think that God will not be in her life, dealing with her just because YOU are not in her life dealing with her. Further, we already have the promise of Romans 8:28 "And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose." So she is God's and HE is far more effective at accomplishing His work in her than you or I will ever be. 

That being said, however, if someone at church were to ask you or speak to you about why you two aren't sitting together or coming at the same service, I would recommend speaking the truth to them, and naming it for what it is. Thus, if some nosy person asks you, "Marksaysay I notice you and your wife don't come to church together anymore. Are you two having trouble?" I would see no problem with answering honestly and fully: "I am sad to say that we are having trouble and I would very much ask that you'd pray for my wife and I, as she is being unfaithful to the marriage and broken her vow. Please pray for both of us and specifically that God would soften her heart and lead her back to honoring Him. For me, for strength to carry on... (or whatever prayer request you want to ask)." 

I'll be honest and pretty blunt here. The fact that your pastor and the church is willing to turn a blind eye to adultery is not a good sign, marksaysay. I understand that a pastor does not want to hurt a parishioner or "take sides", and yet as the shepherd of the flock of your church, it is his (the pastor's) job to guide a person who is actively living in sin, and he would need to be trying to bring her back to right relation with God -- it's his responsibility. If your church is not willing to stand against adultery, I have to admit, I think I would suggest you begin looking for another church. 

I would conclude with this one thought. I take it very personally and deeply that we, as Christians, are to be an example of love, joy and peace in this world. I am not suggesting that your pastor legalistically and judgmentally kick her out of the church. I am saying that as a pastor he has a duty to not turn a blind eye to sin, to work to restore her, if he has to...work with you so that ultimately the marriage can be reconciled, and if she absolutely hardens her heart and refuses to stop doing what she knows is wrong and has been told is wrong, then to discipline as the denomination allows/suggests. For example, I've heard of churches where the youth group leaders (a male and a female, married to other people) had an affair, everyone in the church KNEW they were having an affair, and they were not removed from being youth group leaders!!!  Why? Because the pastor said they needed them for the youth group!!! :banghead: Sorry but in my book, when THE CHURCH won't stand up to sin...time to look for a new church!


Anyway, as far as what do you do? If anything I would say to maybe look at our Sample Consequences Letters and actually write her an official Consequences/No Contact Letter and officially enter a firmer "Plan B." This would entail not talking to her at church; no contact via email, phone, or text; and ending the bowling league. It would also give you one last chance to admit your side, and to let her know what she would need to do in order to repair the marriage. It would also possibly make it more clear that if she does divorce, she doesn't get the little "fixes" of seeing you and blaming you for her unhappiness, and that a divorce will "cost her." Honestly...that's the only thing I can see to do at this point. As far as mediation goes, I would tell the mediator right up front that you do not want a divorce, never have wanted one, and don't intend to now make a divorce easy and painless. Will you be confrontational and vengeful? NO! But will you just give in to her whims to make things go fast or smooth? No. I would recommend having an idea of what you believe is "fair" and the minimum you would accept, and then don't necessarily propose any of it. For example, why should you say, "I would be willing to give up X in exchange for Y" when she hasn't even put a list together of what she would or would not ask for? Let HER do all the work. Let HER go through the pain of having to divide everything and decide what she's willing to give up. And when she proposes that she wants everything and you get nothing, then you have written proof of her unwillingness to be realistic, and you can say, "Well you can see why I don't agree with this proposal. According to our state's laws she would at minimum have to assume this and that debt and give me A and B asset!" Anyway, does that make sense? You do need to know what is rightfully yours, but you don't need to necessarily propose it and/or make that easier or faster. LET her do the work (and she'll probably drag it out forever because it hurts).


----------



## turnera

She chooses this because you allow it. Are you willing to be with her forever, watching her cheat, just so she doesn't leave you? Waiting for her to move back in with you?

Or are you ready to affirm that you deserve MORE than this and you are walking away from the relationship until such time as she sees the error of her ways and asks your forgiveness?


----------



## Jellybeans

Mark, if she wants out, the most loving thing you can do is let her go.

I know that is hard as heck to hear but if someone doesn't want to be with you, ther ei no point in fighting them on their feeling. You deserve to be with someone who loves you. 

She has even taken a restraining order on you. Do not fight her on this. It could be dangerous. Not to mention illegal if you are trying to stay in touch with her.

At this point, you need to follow her ACTIONS. Her actions are telling you she doesn't want to be married, she's even got protective orders against you. Let her go. She will never feel the loss of you while you are still in the picture.

I agree with you that "God's will" will be whatever it is.


----------



## marksaysay

FYI...she dropped the RO partly due, I believe, to her knowing the accusations were false and unwarranted. As a believer, yes, I know that God's will will be done. Yes, understand the battle that is taking place spiritually.

I did come to a decision after reading Affaircare's post that I am leaving my church. It pains me to do having been the only place I've known in the 11+ years I've been here in Indiana. It pains me because of the relationships that have been developed. It pains me because of the ministries that I was involved in, but I can't stay if she is still there. I can't stay with the rest of her family there knowing they are aware of her actions and have basically turned a deaf ear to it and I have no family there or within 1000 miles. I can't stay knowing that my pastor, who has been my best friend for 9+ years and is our daughters godfather, chooses to do nothing as opposed to what the bible teaches and what a shepherd should do. It is probably the hardest decision I've ever had to make but I believe it to be the right one. I'm now gathering my bearings to go and express these same thoughts to my pastor in a few. Thank you all for your help and support throughout all of this. No it's not over yet. No, I'm not hurting over my wife now nor have I been for a while. I'm more hurt that I haven't got the type of support from those from which I expected it, specifically my pastor.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 827Aug

marksaysay,

I think you are doing the right thing also. Affaircare wrote two very well thought out posts. I really agree with what she said. Your minister could have done more. Unfortunately he took the easiest route. The church elders should have been a part of the intervention, and the _church_ should have stood behind you regarding your wife's infidelity.


----------



## marksaysay

Well, the pastor and I had the talk. He said he felt I was making the wrong decision in leaving. Understand that it was probably one of the most difficult things I've ever done because of how close he and i have always been. He stated that he didn't feel stripping her position away for her blatant disregard was not the right thing to do. He said when she told him she was going to do whatever she wanted, there was nothing more he could do. Yes, he said it's obvious that's she is at the least in a backslidden condition but that she was in Gods hands now. He compares my situation with one he had with a girlfriend. When it ended, they remained at the same church and he said it was tough, but he stayed. Yes, there may be similarities but his relationship was a few years. Being married for 10+ years is not the same as having a girlfriend for few years. Still an uphill climb ahead of me but I will make it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

He still missed the boat. He is the ONE person at the church whose responsibility exceeds just 'accepting' her behavior. What a shame.


----------



## Affaircare

Marksaysay~

There are actually two MAJOR differences between his "girlfriend" example, and your wife:

1) As a girlfriend, she had not stood before God and made a covenant to forsake all others. Your wife HAS done that, and is blatantly breaking her covenant with you and with God. So if/when a girlfriend breaks up with you, there is no promise, no vow, no covenant that is sealed by God's witness. With a marriage, there IS a promise, a vow and a covenant all of which were said before God. Take a look at the Gibeonites in Joshua 9. They deceived the Israelites into making a treaty/covenant with them (when Joshua was going through Canaan defeating everyone). HUNDREDS of years later, in II Samuel 21 there was a huge faminine in the land and David sought the Lord to find out why, and verse 1 says “It is on account of Saul and his blood-stained house; it is because he put the Gibeonites to death.” 

So a covenant before God is an entirely different thing than a girlfriend with no promise whatsoever who "broke up."

2) Matthew 18:15-17 is really specific about what to do and how to do it: _“If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector."_ Thus to put is simply, your pastor is essentially saying that he knows better than God. Coming from a pastor I would not say that's cool; he has an obligation to obey God, not do what "feels good" or what he thinks is best. 

Thus, I am very sorry that he's making those choices, and I'm very sorry you have to leave that church, but I will encourage you that I think you've made a wise decision and you are dead on track. I know it hurts and is hard, but even as congregants we too have an obligation to obey God rather than man. I would very much encourage you to continue to be loving, to continue maybe even discussing it with him and explaining why...but ultimately I'm proud of you that you are taking a stand. 

Finally, just to reiterate, I'm not at all suggesting the church should be mean to her or vengeful, but the fact is that they are fully aware she is behaving unfaithfully and leaving her husband without cause. If she does choose to live like that against God's will, it would be reasonable to indicate that then she can not continue to be a "Sunday School teacher" or in a leadership position until she returns to God and obeys Him, or that she can not continue to receive the benefits of fellowship such as communion. Yes, of course she can come and hopefully hear the loving call to return back to right relation with God, but while she's disobeying it is reasonable to obey what God tells us to do to a person who falls back into sinful living! 

It's pretty simple really: He knows best, so obey Him. Do what He says even if it hurts or is hard. I say this specifically because it is a CHURCH involved and the whole point of a church is to be God's representatives here on earth.


----------



## marksaysay

I just came back from the house of one of the older women of the church, another grandmother to me, who had something to give me. She has been a huge part of my family's life as she was our daughter's first care giver until around 2 yrs old. She has known my wife all of her life and me since i've been here. I told her of my decision and that was almost as difficult as telling my pastor, if not more. She's aware of the situation with my wife and I, but I didn't want to go into any more details, especially concerning the pastor. I simply said that it was deeper than just my marital issue and left it at that. I'm not regretful of the decision to leave as it was something that I've been praying about for quite some time. The post by Affaircare last night was what seemed like the thing I needed to push me over the edge. It was essentially exactly what I was feeling. There are tons of people that love me dearly at this church that I will miss. Some of them I will stay in contact with in one way or another. This phase of my life has brought about many different changes and it seems that this is yet another one. I've managed to deal with and get past the rest of them, so this too shall pass.


----------



## marksaysay

Last night, I thought about the meeting with my pastor and I didn't feel as if I adequately expressed what I truly felt so I wrote him a letter and delivered off to him today. In it i listed what he is aware of as proof that he could and should do more than "just let God deal with it. This is what it said:

I never asked you to tell my wife to come back to me but to address her spiritual condition. Yes, I believe we wouldn't be here if her spiritual condition wasn't what it is. I think you've been concentrating on her coming back to me and missing the point that she is lost and doesn't recognize it. You asked me what I would do? I wouldn't let her remain as church clerk knowing she's committing adultery (talking to other guys, pursuing them on a website, texting them, and all that is adultery). And since she is lost and doesn't know it, as pastor, I think you should make her aware that she's lost, since she doesn't see it. Examples:

1) you can't serve the Satan and God (the heavy drinking and partying and such)
2) missing church, bible study, etc. equals not concerned about God 
3) knowingly and intentionally sinning means not having a right relationship with God (unrepentant)
4) a tree is recognized by it's fruit and from what we've discussed she has no resemblance to Christ
5) Galatians 5 as well as others talks about works of flesh and fruit of spirit. She has works but little or no fruit meaning she is either unconverted or backslidden. 
6) not want or seeking Godly advice means not caring about God. 
7) pride always ends in shame (diverting responsibility, blaming others, not wanting to face personal issues, etc.)

I felt if you addressed her spiritual situation, everything else will take care of itself. "you are the watcher of her soul." To not do anything and say 'let God handle it" is wrong. 


That was my letter and it is how I feel.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Jellybeans

marksaysay said:


> 7) pride always ends in shame (diverting responsibility, blaming others, not wanting to face personal issues, etc.)


I agree with that totally.


----------



## turnera

That was a great letter.


----------



## 827Aug

That's exactly what the minister needed to hear. I think the letter will help you with closure as well. Hope you find a church where the minister watches over his/her flock instead of putting his responsibilities off on God.


----------



## marksaysay

What made writing the letter as well as leaving the church so difficult is that the pastor and I started our journeys essentially at the same time, he as a pastor and me as a minister. We have had a little brother, big brother relationship for the past 9 years. He has willingly and unselfishly helped me and my family out financially on several occasions. He and his wife are my daughters godparents. Over the years, we have disagreed on scriptural interpretations but there has not been a time when we just agreed to disagree lovingly and moved on. I don't know what the letter did to him or how he reacted to it, but I hope that our relationship somehow can be salvaged and he can continue to be my loving "big brother". 

I am now in a place where it would seem I am all by myself. I have no family within a thousand miles. I just left the only church I've ever known since moving here. There are so many people there who have been such an encouraging voice to me throughout this and it would seem that I've thrown it away. Some, I will still have a chance to see and talk to from time to time, but it will be nothing like it used to be. I go from being a Sunday School teacher, substitute for bible study teacher and church musician to now trying to find and reestablish my place within a new church. It will be hard to replace the very close connections I have with the people there. People who have been there for my family. People who have seen the changes I've gone through over the years. 

BUT, I don't really regret making the decision. I had been feeling that way about how he handled the situation for a while. One thing I've learned throughout all of this is to be open and upfront, no matter how difficult it can be. I had to say something and I did. I just know that this is going to be a very difficult transition for me as has been the whole separation/divorce. God has helped me to get through the last 5 months and he will continue to strengthen me to keep moving forward.

ALSO, at the urging of Affaircare, I composed my Plan B letter and sent it via email this morning. She responded very quickly and very negatively, of course. The "I don't want to be with you" stuff, which is OK. I'm okay with that. I will continue to press forward. The changes in my life are huge right now, but with my faith and never-give-up attitude, I will be okay. I've gone through a lot of obstacles in my life and I'm sure there are more to come, but I WILL RISE.


----------



## turnera

Well, from what I know of churches, most are ALWAYS eagerly seeking new members and especially volunteers, so whereever you choose to go, you'll be welcomed.


----------



## MisguidedMiscreant

marksaysay said:


> What made writing the letter as well as leaving the church so difficult is that the pastor and I started our journeys essentially at the same time, he as a pastor and me as a minister. We have had a little brother, big brother relationship for the past 9 years. He has willingly and unselfishly helped me and my family out financially on several occasions. He and his wife are my daughters godparents. Over the years, we have disagreed on scriptural interpretations but there has not been a time when we just agreed to disagree lovingly and moved on. I don't know what the letter did to him or how he reacted to it, but I hope that our relationship somehow can be salvaged and he can continue to be my loving "big brother".
> 
> I am now in a place where it would seem I am all by myself. I have no family within a thousand miles. I just left the only church I've ever known since moving here. There are so many people there who have been such an encouraging voice to me throughout this and it would seem that I've thrown it away. Some, I will still have a chance to see and talk to from time to time, but it will be nothing like it used to be. I go from being a Sunday School teacher, substitute for bible study teacher and church musician to now trying to find and reestablish my place within a new church. It will be hard to replace the very close connections I have with the people there. People who have been there for my family. People who have seen the changes I've gone through over the years.
> 
> BUT, I don't really regret making the decision. I had been feeling that way about how he handled the situation for a while. One thing I've learned throughout all of this is to be open and upfront, no matter how difficult it can be. I had to say something and I did. I just know that this is going to be a very difficult transition for me as has been the whole separation/divorce. God has helped me to get through the last 5 months and he will continue to strengthen me to keep moving forward.
> 
> ALSO, at the urging of Affaircare, I composed my NC letter and sent it via email this morning. She responded very quickly and very negatively, of course. The "I don't want to be with you" stuff, which is OK. I'm okay with that. I will continue to press forward. The changes in my life are huge right now, but with my faith and never-give-up attitude, I will be okay. I've gone through a lot of obstacles in my life and I'm sure there are more to come, but I WILL RISE.


Stand strong but I wouldn't completely cut personal ties with the pastor and others unless you find that being friends with them is a problem too. Remember, she'll pay for her transgressions so go with God.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## marksaysay

Today, I went by church to pick up last of my musical equipment. Had to go by pastors office, which is almost always open. It was and he never even lifted head away from his work. He replied 'ok' when I told him why I'd come but nothing else. I still don't regret the decision but it is so difficult to know that this whole divorce thing has caused more than one strained relationship. It's sad to know how pastor and I used to be and to see where we are. Just sad.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## marksaysay

Yet another update. Since the plan b letter I sent to wife in which I stated that all contact be done through email, she has texted and called about 8 times and it's only been 2 days. I am gonna stick to my guns on this one but I would like some suggestions of maybe a better way, if there is one, when kids are involved. Is the email thing okay or should I consider something else? I believe she refuses to email me because she doesn't want me to know her new email address because she changed it months ago when I found out all the dirt by guessing her passwords. Any thoughts?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 827Aug

The e-mail is fine. That's how my estranged husband and I communicate. It keeps the emotions in check. Of course, my children are much older, so nothing is usually very urgent with them. My estranged husband wouldn't be there in emergencies anyway. However, you may want to designate an intermediary as a contact in case emergencies do arise.


----------



## Affaircare

I personally think email is fine, because that way anything said is documented in writing. I can also recommend Parenting Notebook It's like a notebook online so that your daughter's schedule, etc. is on there, online, and the two parents have access but don't really have to get into each others' business.


----------



## marksaysay

Okay wife called and texted about 10 times last night none of them were responded to. She won't email after work because she doesn't want me knowing her new email address for reasons stated earlier. She finally emails after getting to work this morning. Nothing major but she does say she will stop cussing at me. If that is the only thing she thinks she's doing wrong then that's sad.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

You could also set up an account at cozi.com for all parenting/child schedules and issues. That removes the need to converse with her.

Stick to your guns and ignore all calls/texts.


----------



## marksaysay

This experience has been one that I don't wish on anyone. Losing your wife and the family unit itself. Leaving the only church you've known including the relationships. Losing your pastor/big brother because he wouldn't stand up against wrong. Knowing wife is atleast emotionally involved with others. Knowing your wife is spiritually lost. Financially struggling to even pay basic necessities. It's been rough. Everyday is another put behind. I don't know what the future holds but it can't get any worse.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 827Aug

marksaysay said:


> I don't know what the future holds but it can't get any worse.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Don't say that! I remember uttering those infamous words in 2009. It did get much worse. I spent two weeks in the hospital on life support--and my family was told I would never survive. Life has not been that great since. But, now at least when I feel that way, I go make a list of things I have to be thankful for. That list somehow ends up being longer than the "bad" list.

I really do know how hard it is. I've pretty much endured all of the things on your list and more. Plus my marriage was more than 20 years. You will get through it. With God's help we all will.


----------



## Powerbane

Mark - just remember that God will never give you more than HE can handle. Ask for help and let the Spirit guide you. You will come out a better man even though it hurts right now. 

Get the child settled and do the very best that you can. 

God Bless and I've got the South Florida Prayers coming your way!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## marksaysay

827Aug said:


> Don't say that! I remember uttering those infamous words in 2009. It did get much worse. I spent two weeks in the hospital on life support--and my family was told I would never survive. Life has not been that great since. But, now at least when I feel that way, I go make a list of things I have to be thankful for. That list somehow ends up being longer than the "bad" list.
> 
> I really do know how hard it is. I've pretty much endured all of the things on your list and more. Plus my marriage was more than 20 years. You will get through it. With God's help we all will.


I know you're right. I really should've chosen better wording b/c i didn't really mean for it to sound that way. I am really thankful that things are not worse than they are. I guess i really meant that things can only go up when you've reached the bottom. 

Leading up to the final hearing (or what I thought was going to be the final hearing) I had emotionally gotten to a place where I'd accepted the fact that my marriage was over. I didn't agree with the reasons for the divorce. I didn't want the divorce but I had pretty much accepted the fact that I would walk in court on 3/11 married and come out divorced. It didn't quite happen that way for a number of reasons and that has caused many of the emotions that had gone dormant for a period to reemerge. Add to that now the fact that I've left my church and the only "family" that I have here and I have this great sense of loneliness/emptiness. It pretty much seems as if I've gone backwards and not forwards. I thought I was done feeling this way, but here I am again.

Mediation is still several weeks away. I don't know if things will get resolved then but I'm still trying to figure out how I'm going to pay my half of the cost. I'm wondering if it will take more than one session to get things resolved which will also add to my concerns. I'm really not that worried about it to the point of being anxious because I have faith that God will work things out somehow. It is just a rough patch and I know that I'll make it. I keep thinking about David in Psalm 23 when he said "yea though I walk THROUGH the valley" which implies that the valley was not his final destination. I may be in the valley right now, but I KNOW that I will make it through.


----------



## MisguidedMiscreant

marksaysay said:


> This experience has been one that I don't wish on anyone. Losing your wife and the family unit itself. Leaving the only church you've known including the relationships. Losing your pastor/big brother because he wouldn't stand up against wrong. Knowing wife is atleast emotionally involved with others. Knowing your wife is spiritually lost. Financially struggling to even pay basic necessities. It's been rough. Everyday is another put behind. I don't know what the future holds but it can't get any worse.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


"Out of the night that covers me,
Black as the Pit from pole to pole,
I thank whatever gods may be
For my unconquerable soul.

In the fell clutch of circumstance
I have not winced nor cried aloud.
Under the bludgeonings of chance
My head is bloody, but unbowed.

Beyond this place of wrath and tears
Looms but the Horror of the shade,
And yet the menace of the years
Finds, and shall find, me unafraid.

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll.
I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul." 

"When you’re up against a trouble, 
Meet it squarely, face to face; 
Lift your chin and set your shoulders, 
Plant your feet and take a brace. 
When it’s vain to try to dodge it, 
Do the best that you can do; 
You may fail, but you may conquer, 
See it through! 


Black may be the clouds about you 
And your future may seem grim, 
But don’t let your nerve desert you; 
Keep yourself in fighting trim. 
If the worst is bound to happen, 
Spite of all that you can do, 
Running from it will not save you, 
See it through! 


Even hope may seem but futile, 
When with troubles you’re beset, 
But remember you are facing 
Just what other men have met. 
You may fail, but fall still fighting; 
Don’t give up, whate’er you do; 
Eyes front, head high to the finish. 
See it through!"

The first poem was _Invictus_ by William Ernest Henley and the second was _See It Through_ by Edgar Allen Guest. These are two poems that I repeat to myself when the fire dies down. Maybe they could work for you.


----------



## 827Aug

marksaysay said:


> I keep thinking about David in Psalm 23 when he said "yea though I walk THROUGH the valley" which implies that the valley was not his final destination. I may be in the valley right now, but I KNOW that I will make it through.


I understand what you mean in reference to "can't get any worse". We really never know when we are in that valley, do we? Many days I hope I'm at the very bottom, but then something else happens. People around me sometimes laugh because I now say, "Am I there yet?" In my own way I'm looking forward to being at the lowest point, so that I may look forward to brighter days. That probably won't make sense to a lot of people who have not faced serious trials/suffering. 

May we soon begin our ascent up that mountain. As always, I will say a prayer for you and your family.


----------



## marksaysay

Well today was first day at different church and it felt odd. I know some of the people there but don't have the relationship with them. It was very odd since I was usually very involved in the service at old church whether playing keyboard/piano or giving a few words from pulpit, etc. I sat in the pews with my daughter and it felt good but different. Still haven't heard from my pastor since the note. Today the church was to go and worship with another church this afternoon and I would normally be accompanying the choir. Today they are accapella for the first time in years. Don't know if wife went to church. Prior to today she had missed 4 of last 5 weeks which is another reason why I don't understand pastor's reluctance. 

As far as the NC, this is the end of week 1 and so far so good. It still doesn't feel the best but I don't have many choices at this point. Just gotta keep looking to the future and saying in the words of Annie, "the sun'll come out tomorrow". I'll just be glad when tomorrow comes.

Wife must really think that I'm gonna give in because she will not stop calling or texting. The no contact letter was delivered on Tuesday and since then I have 9 calls and 8 texts, none of which have been responded to. I'm not gonna give in. No contact means no contact. I gave her the option of email and I started an account on Cozi.com which she hasn't responded to. Those are my terms right now and if she doesn't get it, she doesn't get it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Good for you. You're doing the right thing. No matter what happens, you know you've fought the good fight.


----------



## Jellybeans

What did you say in your no contact letter, Mark? Also, what has she been messaging you?

No contact is hard as heck so I commend you.


----------



## marksaysay

Yes, it is hard. She just will not accept my terms for communication. I told her to email me or use the emergency contact none of which she's done. She called and texted again this morning saying we need to communicate concerning our daughter. We do but I told her to email me but if it's after her work hours, she won't email because she doesn't want me to know her new email address since I cracked her last email and found the dirt. The messages were just saying to call her. I'm sticking to it no matter how hard. And yes, I've fought the good fight. Also, I will try to post my NC letter later. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Jellybeans

I'm glad to hear you are staying above things. Eventually you guys WILL have to make contact regarding the kids. You could always just keep your interactions/communication strictly co-parenting.


----------



## marksaysay

Well, today daughter had a concert at school. I purposely showed up a little late knowing wife and MIL would be settled by then. I stood close to the door to watch the whole thing knowing that wife could possibly try to come to me. After the last song was sang, I left. It hurts me that I didn't get a chance to go and tell my daughter that I saw her and how proud I was but no contact means no contact, right? I will see daughter onthe weekend so we'll talk then.I wouldn't have been able to do that without wife being in my face. About 5 minutes after I left, wife calls and of course I don't answer. Since last Tuesday she has pretty much disregarded my request for email contact only and she wonders why haven't responded. I will continue to push forward and wait out the storm.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MisguidedMiscreant

marksaysay said:


> Well, today daughter had a concert at school. I purposely showed up a little late knowing wife and MIL would be settled by then. I stood close to the door to watch the whole thing knowing that wife could possibly try to come to me. After the last song was sang, I left. It hurts me that I didn't get a chance to go and tell my daughter that I saw her and how proud I was but no contact means no contact, right? I will see daughter onthe weekend so we'll talk then.I wouldn't have been able to do that without wife being in my face. About 5 minutes after I left, wife calls and of course I don't answer. Since last Tuesday she has pretty much disregarded my request for email contact only and she wonders why haven't responded. I will continue to push forward and wait out the storm.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Damn, that sucks. I'm sorry if you've already mentioned but how old is your daughter and how much does she know?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## marksaysay

MisguidedMiscreant said:


> Damn, that sucks. I'm sorry if you've already mentioned but how old is your daughter and how much does she know?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Our daughter is 7. I'm not sure if she knows about the divorce or what it actually means but she does know that her mother and I don't live together anymore. That's pretty obvious. It pains me to see her get upset about her mother not coming to church (prior to me leaving). It pains me to see her so upset about having to go to a different church this past weekend when she was with me. She stated that she wanted to see mommy at church. She doesn't know, but another church member told me that my wife didn't show up yet again this week. That makes 5 of the last 6 weeks she hasn't gone. My wife had previously blamed my being there for her not coming. Well, she knew I had left the church, so what is her excuse now? Another attempt at her to shift the blame, as she has done about countless other things, to me when it more accurately is her fault. 

Also, just got another text about 5 minutes ago. She will not stop. All she has to do is send me an email. Nothing that she's texted about or called and left messages about have been emergencies. I'm started to believe that she really doesn't like not being able to have any contact with me. Who knows???


----------



## Affaircare

> I'm glad to hear you are staying above things. Eventually you guys WILL have to make contact regarding the kids. You could always just keep your interactions/communication strictly co-parenting.


Actually for both marksaysay's benefit and for those who are following along, I would like to clarify something. Marksaysay has not said he is unwilling to communicate with her about their daughter. What is HAS said he is unwilling to do is to have his disloyal spouse be entangled in his day-to-day daily life via phone and text messaging. 

In real life, 90% or more of the communication about kids could easily be done via a calendar and a notebook/folder in the "transfer backpack". Things like appointments, assignments, things the child has upcoming or may need, even the child's schedule could all be communicated in an email or in said calendar like this "For next month, since it's Easter, I propose that I have her until noon and you have her after noon." Or "Normal schedule all month: Wed. to Sun. and Sun. to Wed. Thanks!" Know what I mean? There is VERY RARELY a need for daily calls or texts. 

If his wife wants to be divorced....well this is what divorce MEANS. She is no longer part of his life. She no longer controls him or his calendar or anything. She doesn't get a vote or even input! If he wants to, he can date and even move 1000 miles away as long as he get court approval and pays for visitation then (or at least follows the divorce agreement whatever that says). So if she wants to call daily and text, that means she has to end her unfaithful lifestyle and be his wife. Otherwise, he's not turning away from her; he's allowing her to experience that divorce means that she is NO LONGER part of his life. 

Now my guess is that if the text said, "Medical emergency: daughter hurt at softball game and broke her arm. Please call" ...well that is entirely different. Calling to say "How are you? Why won't you talk to me?" or to yell at him... nope. No more.


----------



## marksaysay

Thanks, Affaircare, for that post. Hopefully, it was able to clarify to those on the outside exactly what I'm doing. It is pretty tough for me to do but I'm gonna stick it out. It can't do nothing but help in the long run either way. 

I want to let everyone know, also, that even though most people today would say that since the divorce is in the process, they are free to do what they choose as far as relationships go. I've heard from countless number of people that I should date and move on. While it may seem like the "normal" thing to do, it is morally AND legally wrong, because getting a divorce and being divorced are two different things in my book. Yes, we are in the process, and yes, it may be inevitable that it happens, but I am STILL married and will not date anyone probably for a while after the divorce, if and when it happens. Emotionally, I'm not sure I will be ready to try and pursue a new relationship and I don't want to lead anyone on. 

By the way, her last text pretty much called me selfish for not sticking around to talk to daughter after the performance. I'm sure I would've gotten one had I not shown up. But I also got one because we were not "a happy FAMILY" afterwards. She said it is not all about me. That is kind of funny because the reason she said she wanted the divorce was all about her. Go figure.


----------



## turnera

Well, honestly, I do think you should have just ignored wife and stayed to talk to your daughter. As a former daughter whose dad hid and left me feeling unwanted...it's not fun.


----------



## MisguidedMiscreant

turnera said:


> Well, honestly, I do think you should have just ignored wife and stayed to talk to your daughter. As a former daughter whose dad hid and left me feeling unwanted...it's not fun.


I agree with turnera here, I understand what you were doing but I would make sure that I would involve myself in my daugther's life despite her. I definitely would've walked over to your daughter, without even acknowledging the "wife," and congratulated her then left just as fast as I arrived. Also, you need to make sure that your wife is not using any of this against you with your daughter, I've seen lots of women poison their children's relationship with their father as a way to get back at him. 

I want to tackle two other thing's you've mentioned:

Church: She's straying from the path, simple as that. I'm not religious, but I see that it does work to help a lot of people live righteously if done correctly. I don't know what happened but, at some point, she made that "right turn at Albuquerque." You were just a smokescreen but I think this is a deeper issue that you and her in this regard. Repairing her relationship with God could do wonders to repairing her relationship with you, if not full R at least you two would be able to coexist. 

Calling and Texting: You were her punching bag, she needs that from you at least. With you leaving her in the wind, she has no one to beat up on but herself. From what I read in a prev post, it sounds like she's doing more looking online now than anything, right?


----------



## marksaysay

I agree with turnera here, I understand what you were doing but I would make sure that I would involve myself in my daugther's life despite her. I definitely would've walked over to your daughter, without even acknowledging the "wife," and congratulated her then left just as fast as I arrived. Also, you need to make sure that your wife is not using any of this against you with your daughter, I've seen lots of women poison their children's relationship with their father as a way to get back at him. 

I understand your thoughts about daughter, but my daughter is a very bright girl (in accellerated learning program at her school) and we always have a good talk about things. She and I just had a great weekend together so I'm not so concerned about my wife trying to poison her mind. And the main reason I didn't go down was because about 3 weeks ago, wife asked to talk after she arrived at church (before church started) so we went outside and she started trying to have a serious divorce talk. I told her this was not the time nor the place but she would not stop. She literally chased me around the parking lot as I was trying to walk away from her. Another member saw and went and told our pastor and he came out to stop it. I don't put anything past her at this point.

I want to tackle two other thing's you've mentioned:

Church: She's straying from the path, simple as that. I'm not religious, but I see that it does work to help a lot of people live righteously if done correctly. I don't know what happened but, at some point, she made that "right turn at Albuquerque." You were just a smokescreen but I think this is a deeper issue that you and her in this regard. Repairing her relationship with God could do wonders to repairing her relationship with you, if not full R at least you two would be able to coexist. 

Yes, she has strayed and I've been aware of that for several months. My pastor (or former pastor) had some indepth discussions about the things that revealed her wayward condition. He was thoroughly convinced as well. This was another reason it was so hard for me to stay at that church knowing pastor could talk to me about her condition but not talk to her. She even told me that her spirituallity was important to her, but yet she doesn't even recognize that she is not exhibiting anything close to what a Christian should. I believe that her return to God would possibly help in her return to me, but I'm not naive to think that it WILL result in her return. I also knew that her excuse was a lame one and really didn't give it much thought.

Calling and Texting: You were her punching bag, she needs that from you at least. With you leaving her in the wind, she has no one to beat up on but herself. From what I read in a prev post, it sounds like she's doing more looking online now than anything, right?

This is so true which is why I believe it bothers her so much to not be able to talk to me. But I don't believe and I'm almost certain that she's doing more than just looking on the internet. Before she filed for divorce, I found out that she'd exchanged cell #'s with guys from the website, which she denied doing initially. I found out that she'd began showing some pictures of them to her "friends". I even saw correspondence where she was talking about going out with a couple of them. That was months ago, and since I no longer have access to her cell phone account (we split them), nor the computer (she left the dating site open one day which is how i found out), and knowing that she is essentially flying under the radar with no accountability, I believe she's probably been on some dates if not more. She's been caught in several lies in recent weeks, including a trip in which she said she was hanging out with her dad over the weekend. It was later found to be a lie but she didn't divulge any more info. 

I haven't tried to find out what she's doing knowing that I probably don't really want to know. I just know that God is in control and that He will take care of things in His own way and time.


----------



## marksaysay

Well, my wife has now found a way to get around my NC request. She has bought our daughter a cell phone which I thought was great. Daughter texted me about it this morning and I immediately called her. BUT then I hear my wife in the background saying "tell your dad this", "tell your dad that", or "ask your dad this". I promptly sent her an email stating that she was going to ruin her daughter's ability to speak with her father if she does not respect my request for NC. The phone is not to be used as a medium to relay messages from her. She can contact me ONLY through email. Was I wrong in saying this? Please give me feedback
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

No, you were exactly right.


----------



## Affaircare

No and here's what you can do, marksaysay. 

I have no doubt in my mind that she will not respect your request mainly because in her past actions your wife has not been respectful. So when your daughter calls again, ask her if her mom is in the room with her. If her mom is, you can ask her to go to her room to talk to you but leave the door open (no need for secrecy after all...just no "eavesdropping"). If her mom persists with "Tell your dad this and that" you can ask your daughter to say "If you want to talk with dad, does that mean you're ready to give him 100% of your affection and loyalty? No? Please talk to him then okay?" 

After all, that is what the official Consequences/Plan B Letter said right? "When you're ready to end your unfaithful lifestyle contact me and we can consider reconciliation." Thus EVERY time she attempts to contact you covertly like this, just ask: "Oh are you ready to give me 100% of your affection and loyalty now and end your unfaithfulness?" If the answer is no, then just tell her "Oh you're not? Okay contact me when you are--until then I will only accept email."


----------



## marksaysay

You're absolutely right on the money. Through email today, she told me she would not use cozi.com. She told me that she would not accept any of my options for NC on weekends where I don't get my daughter. I get her now on Sundays and every other Fri evening thru Mon morning. I asked that she choose one of several options on those Sunday's: 

1) have her mom bring her to me
2) have her mom wait with her at church until I arrive. 
3) have her stay with our pastor who is her godfather until I get there
4) have her hang out with her other grandmother who lives next door to church until I get there (she's not really her grandmother but she was her first caregiver and has a close relationship with her)

She said she would not do any of these and calla me selfish and says that I'm only thinking about myself. If that ain't the pot calling the kettle black. I'm trying all I can but she will not or does not want to make any concessions or compromises. The very same thing she did during our marriage. I don't think anything I've asked for is unreasonable or is it?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Nope. My next step would be to visit a lawyer and have the lawyer write her a letter about complying with at least one of your options.


----------



## Affaircare

Save that email so that you have in writing that she is unwilling to be a cooperative parent. Next time in court or mediation or whatever, give the official a copy of the document, indicate that she is withholding visitation in an attempt to force communication which you do not want, and ask that your be allowed to pick up your daughter after school every Friday and drop her at school every Monday...and then wife can pick her up after school on Monday. This minimizes contact and gets you regular, consistent time with your child...and it is MORE THAN REASONABLE!!

At this time your wife doesn't realize that your daughter is just as much YOURS as she is "hers" so if she keeps this up and you continue documenting uncooperative parenting, YOU can ask for primary parenting and then she would be the one getting weekend "visits". This is unacceptable and may take a while for justice to be served, but keep documenting her usage of the child to force communication.


----------



## MisguidedMiscreant

Hey, with all that's going on, are there any positives in your life? It's important to take stock in those things too.


----------



## marksaysay

MisguidedMiscreant said:


> Hey, with all that's going on, are there any positives in your life? It's important to take stock in those things too.


Oh yes! I have many things to be thankful for. First and foremost is my relationship with Christ and knowing with certainty that my salvation is secure. I know that He has been with me in the midst of all of the chaos that surrounds me. He has given me strength to get through so far. I have a place to lay my head. I have food to eat and clothes on my back. I have health and strength. I have a wonderful daughter. I have a job. I have the peace of mind in knowing that whatever I'm going through is for my good. I have people who I know love and care about me (although my family is many states away). I have everything thing I NEED right now. And as odd as it may seem, I am even still glad to have a WIFE. Yes, you all read it correctly. Maybe she won't be my wife for much longer or maybe she will. I guess I see this is a good thing because as long as she is still my wife, it's not over. We were supposed to be divorced by now but we aren't. I don't hate her and I'm not going to be vindictive or attempt to repay evil for evil no matter what she does. That would not be the right thing to do. Who knows what will happen, but I still have a lot to be happy about. 

Was that enough? LOL

And to clarify, the weekends that I have her Friday through Monday aren't the problem. I pick daughter up on Fri and take her to school on Mon. The problem is what happens on the other weekends. I just want to be able to see daughter without having to see wife. Even with this being the case, I still don't see it as being unreasonable.


----------



## MisguidedMiscreant

marksaysay said:


> Oh yes! I have many things to be thankful for. First and foremost is my relationship with Christ and knowing with certainty that my salvation is secure. I know that He has been with me in the midst of all of the chaos that surrounds me. He has given me strength to get through so far. I have a place to lay my head. I have food to eat and clothes on my back. I have health and strength. I have a wonderful daughter. I have a job. I have the peace of mind in knowing that whatever I'm going through is for my good. I have people who I know love and care about me (although my family is many states away). I have everything thing I NEED right now. And as odd as it may seem, I am even still glad to have a WIFE. Yes, you all read it correctly. Maybe she won't be my wife for much longer or maybe she will. I guess I see this is a good thing because as long as she is still my wife, it's not over. We were supposed to be divorced by now but we aren't. I don't hate her and I'm not going to be vindictive or attempt to repay evil for evil no matter what she does. That would not be the right thing to do. Who knows what will happen, but I still have a lot to be happy about.
> 
> Was that enough? LOL


Well, see? There you go. Remember, in God's light, we cast our own shadow. Keep living with God in your heart and that shadow will become shorter and shorter.



marksaysay said:


> And to clarify, the weekends that I have her Friday through Monday aren't the problem. I pick daughter up on Fri and take her to school on Mon. The problem is what happens on the other weekends. I just want to be able to see daughter without having to see wife. Even with this being the case, I still don't see it as being unreasonable.


If I understand this fog correctly, if she's still in it, she won't be reasonable for a long time.


----------



## marksaysay

MisguidedMiscreant said:


> If I understand this fog correctly, if she's still in it, she won't be reasonable for a long time.


No, she hasn't been reasonable at all. I can remember so many contradictions throughout this process, it's unreal. She first began saying that she was emotionally neglected for 5 years. It has slowly made it's way up to 8 years now. There are many other inconsistencies and incidents she has greatly exaggerated or altered the facts on, you would not believe. Maybe you would. Did I make mistakes? Yes. But some of her statements are just flatout not true.

Anyways, there is not really much to report other than the fact that I literally had to force her to accept my no contact yesterday. I had left the church I am now attending and recieved a text from daughter asking was I coming. I said yes, but when I drove up, I saw wife's car still there. I waited a bit and got a call from pastor stating that wife and daughter were waiting on me. I told him to have her leave daughter with him and I would be there. She finally did and I picked up my daughter. I don't think she liked it, though. I actually parked a couple of blocks away so that i could see when she left and she sped down the street really fast. Maybe she was late for a date or something. LOL


----------



## MisguidedMiscreant

marksaysay said:


> No, she hasn't been reasonable at all. I can remember so many contradictions throughout this process, it's unreal. She first began saying that she was emotionally neglected for 5 years. It has slowly made it's way up to 8 years now. There are many other inconsistencies and incidents she has greatly exaggerated or altered the facts on, you would not believe. Maybe you would. Did I make mistakes? Yes. But some of her statements are just flatout not true.
> 
> Anyways, there is not really much to report other than the fact that I literally had to force her to accept my no contact yesterday. I had left the church I am now attending and recieved a text from daughter asking was I coming. I said yes, but when I drove up, I saw wife's car still there. I waited a bit and got a call from pastor stating that wife and daughter were waiting on me. I told him to have her leave daughter with him and I would be there. She finally did and I picked up my daughter. I don't think she liked it, though. I actually parked a couple of blocks away so that i could see when she left and she sped down the street really fast. Maybe she was late for a date or something. LOL


I don't know about you but here's what's pissing me off with Preacherman, he can't help you but he can help her?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 827Aug

MisguidedMiscreant said:


> I don't know about you but here's what's pissing me off with Preacherman, he can't help you but he can help her?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I noticed that too. It is interesting the estranged wife is trying her darnedest to have contact.


----------



## marksaysay

MisguidedMiscreant said:


> I don't know about you but here's what's pissing me off with Preacherman, he can't help you but he can help her?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is actually not strange in one sense. She has actually used him to relay messages throughout this process on a number of occasions when she's felt like she didn't want to talk to me. It's been very sporadic, though. But most of the time she's tried to call me herself. This was pretty much the first time I've asked him to pass on a message. Well, now that I think about it, no it wasn't. He was just unwilling to pass on the most difficult message of them all, that most of the behaviors she's been exhibiting have little or no resemblance of a child of God. 

Yeah, she tried to have contact but I wouldn't budge. I did do something yesterday, though. I found out that on Dr. Harley's website, Marriagebuilders.com, you can submit questions to him via email. So I spelled out my situation the best I could to see what type of advise he may have. I would love to hear what he has to say. Can't wait to see his response.


----------



## marksaysay

So yesterday i went and had a discussion with the pastor of the church I am currently attending about why I'm there. He knew me and our pastor before and he knew we had a close relationship. without going into the heavy stuff, i just told him that the impending divorce is the reason why i've decided to attend his church at least temporarily. 

He then starts talking to me about God's will for marriage and how it is necessary that Christians understand that by walking away from a marriage, particularly with unbiblical grounds, your are essentially telling God you don't care what he thinks. I had to interrupt him to clarify that i wasn't walking away and that i didn't want the divorce. 

I didn't go into any of my wife's behaviors other than those that may be obvious signs of her having spiritually strayed. I didn't talk about infidelity and the other stuff. He then asks a very difficult question, "What does your pastor think about it?". I simply told him that he felt that this was something that God should handle. Again, i didn't think it necessary to reveal everything in that regard, but he did comment by saying that pastors do have a certain responsibility.

I came to realize yesterday that most of the negative emotions i have right now are because of my pastor and not my wife. What do you guys think about that?


----------



## Affaircare

I


> didn't go into any of my wife's behaviors other than those that may be obvious signs of her having spiritually strayed. I didn't talk about infidelity and the other stuff.


I realize that you want to avoid gossiping, etc. and that is reasonable and respectful...but by the same token your new pastor would have spiritual authority over you and he will not be able to give spiritually wise advise or make fully informed decisions without knowing all the facts as you know them. Thus, I strongly recommend that you go to him again, tell him you are wrestling with knowing where "the line" is, but that there are additional facts he needs to know to help guide you. It is the honest truth and nothing more. Your wife is acting now, at this time, in an unfaithful way, and you have not "made it up" so it is a fact that your pastor does need to know in order to guide you as you go through this. 



> I came to realize yesterday that most of the negative emotions i have right now are because of my pastor and not my wife. What do you guys think about that?


I am not surprised by this in the least. You have had some time to adjust to the pain of your wife's actions, and you have been dealing with that for a time now. Your pastor's choices to not stand by you and not discipline her are a new and fresh betrayal on two levels: pastor-to-congregant authority figure and man-to-man friendship. Your wife's behavior is sad and hurts but has been a consistent pain for a while now (like a chronic ache) but the pastor...that is a new wound. Thus I am not surprised and pray that you don't do as so many do and lose faith in God and wander "off the path" because of the actions of one man.


----------



## 827Aug

I agree with Affaircare. Your new minister does need to know of your wife's adulteress ways though. You were betrayed twice. First, by your wife then by your former pastor. In essence by your pastor doing nothing, he did plenty. There are times when doing nothing isn't an option, and this was one of those times.


----------



## turnera

I agree. You're not gossiping about your wife - you're asking your new pastor for help. He needs to know the truth to be able to give you the correct advice.


----------



## marksaysay

First of all, I haven't formally become a member of this new church. I will continue to attend there but the new minister is not actually my pastor, yet. He even mentioned in our conversation that until I do formally unite with the church, my pastor is still at the other church. This is why i am and have been hesitant to reaveal anymore details. Doing so would not only cast a different light on my situation as well as my wife but it would also implicate my pastor and his lack of action.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Your pastor NEEDS to have his lack of appropriate action implicated.

Why are you treating this man as if he's better than you? If you weren't doing YOUR job well, don't you think it would be brought up to your boss?


----------



## marksaysay

Well, instead of going to my 'new' pastor, I went to someone better. I went to the mentor of both my pastor and I. Several years ago, my pastor and I went to seminary together and our classes were taught by one of, if not the most respected pastors in our town. He's in his upper 70's and has been pastoring for 40+ years. My pastor and I both have a close relationship with him. I told him everything about my situation including what my wife is doing and what my pastor didn't do. To say the least, he was more appalled by my pastors lack of action. He too spoke of an obligation of the pastor. He stated that he didn't think I was wrong in how I felt. He said that it iwas unnecessary for my pastor to wait on Gods urging to do something when the bible is pretty explicit about such matters. 

I don't know what will come of that conversation but I feel better k owing that someone else knows. Maybe he will givenhim a friendly call or visit, I don't know.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

That would be great. Maybe your pastor can receive some courage to do the right thing from such a call.


----------



## Affaircare

marksaysay said:


> Well, instead of going to my 'new' pastor, I went to someone better. I went to the mentor of both my pastor and I. ... He said that i*t was unnecessary for my pastor to wait on Gods urging to do something when the bible is pretty explicit about such matters.*


:iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

VERY good job, marksaysay!! Just the right person to go to! :smthumbup:


----------



## MisguidedMiscreant

marksaysay said:


> Well, instead of going to my 'new' pastor, I went to someone better. I went to the mentor of both my pastor and I. Several years ago, my pastor and I went to seminary together and our classes were taught by one of, if not the most respected pastors in our town. He's in his upper 70's and has been pastoring for 40+ years. My pastor and I both have a close relationship with him. I told him everything about my situation including what my wife is doing and what my pastor didn't do. To say the least, he was more appalled by my pastors lack of action. He too spoke of an obligation of the pastor. He stated that he didn't think I was wrong in how I felt. He said that it iwas unnecessary for my pastor to wait on Gods urging to do something when the bible is pretty explicit about such matters.
> 
> I don't know what will come of that conversation but I feel better k owing that someone else knows. Maybe he will givenhim a friendly call or visit, I don't know.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Old preachers are the best preachers. I find that they really cut to the root of the matter and the Bible.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## marksaysay

Keep in mind that I don't know if he intends to say something or do something because he never said it. I could only hope that he does. If he doesn't, it felt good to tell someone else.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

And that's the whole point. We're here to help YOU.


----------



## marksaysay

Well, I found out today that our mediation is set for May 4th. I asked the scheduler generally how long it takes. She said there is really no way in knowing. It could take an hour or it could take all day. I'm not going to really worry too much about the cost of $220/hr. I can't even cover my bills now as it is. Maybe I can give them an IOU for my portion. I guess this is yet another opportunity for me to just trust that God will do as he has throughout this situation, provide. 

So I've got just under a month before this takes place and it will be a difficult one since I'm now in Plan B with the wife and I am no longer in contact with my best friend, my pastor and big brother. I guess I'm literally at the point where there is nothing really left for me to do. As far as my wife is concerned, I guess my hope and prayer is that someway, somehow, divine intervention will cause her to break out of the "fog" and see the light. Anything is possible....


----------



## turnera

What are you doing to get YOUR life on track?


----------



## marksaysay

Monday, I'm starting P90x. That'll be a start. I'll have to figure out some other things.


----------



## turnera

It always helps to have a plan. And to share that plan with someone, so they can check in on you.


----------



## paramore

Hey Mark, P90X is TOUGH!!! Good luck dude.


----------



## marksaysay

Yeah I know but I'm a former pro baseball player so I'm use to being pushed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## paramore

That's pretty cool, I tried it twice...couldn't make it through half the workout LOL


----------



## turnera

marksaysay said:


> Yeah I know but I'm a former pro baseball player so I'm use to being pushed.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 Cool!


----------



## marksaysay

It's been a while but I have a question for all of you veterans. It's been months since the exposure of my wife's ONS and her internet activities, etc. She has told me that she told our daughter that "mommy and daddy just can't be together right now." 

We are just weeks away from our mediation hearing, which I can't afford, but my question is should I tell our 7 yr old daughter the truth? The parenting class we went to stated that children should not be involved in adult business. In my opinion that statement was for those who conceded to divorce and move seperate ways. I still have a hope to pull my family back from the grave. 

Would it hurt my chances or hurt my chances of a possible reconciliation if I told my daughter the "whole" truth. If I do tell my daughter, how should I tell her?


----------



## turnera

I believe in tellng them the truth.


----------



## MisguidedMiscreant

turnera said:


> I believe in tellng them the truth.


Yeah, but she's 7. No need to ruin her innocence yet, she'll learn all about this stuff soon enough.


----------



## Affaircare

Okay in a general way I do agree that a 7 yo has a limit to what they can understand about adult relationships, marriage, intimacy, etc. She has no clue and no way to relate. 

However, 7yo's DO understand some about moms and dads not having boyfriends or girlfriends. Also 7yo's DO understand about not lying--not even when telling the truth is hard or might hurt the other person. Even 7yo's could understand that you don't divorce and break up your family "because mom and dad don't get along right now..."  I mean really...so the next time she doesn't get along with someone (say at school) can she leave, move, or go to another school? Then why can mommy? It makes no sense and does not teach her morality or right from wrong. 

Here is the truth. There were things that dad did that hurt mom. Mom was pretty mad and then did things that hurt dad. Now it's not so much that mom and dad can't "get along right now" but along the way, dad learned that it's not cool to lie--even when it's hard or scary it's better to tell the whole, entire truth. And dad also learned that when moms and dads are married they should only love each other and no one else--no boyfriends or girlfriends. 

There ya go. Leave it at that and ask if she has any questions. It will probably be: "Yeah I do have a question daddy. Does this mean we can go play Dora Explorer now?"


----------



## ladyybyrd

The "fog" is basically confusion and doesn't know what he/she really wants.


----------



## marksaysay

Had a bit of a breakthrough today. No, my wife didn't call and ask to reconcile. This breakthrough is more personal. After all these months of dealing with the adultery of my wife, it was pointed out to me that, although i did not engage in the outward act, I did inwardly commit adultery based on Matthew 5:27,28.

I've known porn was wrong and God has helped me tremendously in dealing with this issue. But today, I saw it for what it actually was, adultery in the eyes of God. I read that passage and began to study it more in depth and my hands began to shake uncontrollably with the conviction of what I had just learned.

It may not be enough to save my marriage or change my situation in other ways, but it did wonders for me and my relationship with God. This was one of those "WOW" moments.

I just thought I would share this with all. God Bless.


----------



## Indy Nial

So what you're saying is that you're actually a serial adulterer? Guess you're more than even with your wife?


----------



## marksaysay

Indy Nial said:


> So what you're saying is that you're actually a serial adulterer? Guess you're more than even with your wife?


Thanks for the words of compassion. It's nice to see there are people who believe in kicking a person when they're down. If it wasn't meant that way, it sure did come across like that.


----------



## paramore

I am sure Indy meant that as sarcasm. At least that's how I am reading it, but again I could be wrong. The whole porn thing, I guess I am one that doesn't have a problem with it if it's an occasional thing, but that's just me, I don't know if you had a problem with it or what, but I am very happy for you that you found a way to beat that if you were addicted. Good for you friend.


----------



## Indy Nial

I'm not trying to kick you I'm genuinely interested if you think watching porn is remotely close to having an affair. It's not. Porn is a fantasy. You don't know these people, its not like drooling over your next door neighbour. Did you stop loving your wife because of it? Did you want to walk away from the marriage so you cod watch porn?

The relationship you have with God is not the same as the one you have with your wife. She is just human and prone to making mistakes, just like you. God is perfection and cannot have ANYTHING to do with sin. What you're talking about is thoughts, what your wife did was a lot more than that with a lot more consequences. 

I'm not saying porn is ok for a Christian but there is a HUGE difference between looking at naughty images and going out into the real world and having a relationship with another man.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Lazarus

Porn can be very destructive. It can be one of the reasons why a wayward spouse (male or female) steps out and has an affair!

The rest becomes a tailspin for the LS. 

Lives can be wrecked over porn where the fantasy becomes reality and it leads to an affair or multiple serial encounters.

When a LS finds out about a DS with porn issues don't always jump to the conclusion that it is just fantasy because with the internet, text, emailing, msm, webcams the fantasy can become reality.

It is why a LS should get checked for STDs particularly if the DS has subscriptions on social network sites. 

With the internet, porn is much more different to just a few dirty magazines. Women may not see that side of porn as totally threatening but internet porn can turn out to be something quite different and destroy the lives of both spouses and family.

Look at the thread Relationships and addictions. Can I get him to stop and do it with me. Other threads in this section too show that porn can be a very serious problem in relationships.


----------



## Eli-Zor

The way I see what you are doing is trying to find reasons for your wifes affair, don't she is knowingly, intentionally and purposefully committing adultry. Lay off the self blame and deal with the issue at hand. While using your faith to strengthen you works don't use it to undermine yourself. You have been far to nice a guy, cut her out completely , fight for custody of your child aim high and get the maximum you can get, you are at war with a cheat who knows no boundaries to what pain she will cause you. Toughen up, go darker than dark on her and deal with her like a predator who seeks to destroy your family. One day should she grow up and show true remorse you may choose to forgive her, forgiveness comes with remorse until then she is a wolf at the door, treat her as such.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## marksaysay

I'm not trying to find reasons for my wife's affair. I'm strictly looking at myself at gaining an understanding of the greater standards that God holds us to. I am fully aware that her outward acts are completely different from my inward acts. But what I also know is that whether outward or inward, God does not see them any differently. They are both sin. 

I'm simply saying that I cannot justify my actions by calling it less than what it was based on the biblical understanding of those actions. I committed adultery in the eyes of God and his eyes are the ones that matter the most.


----------



## Lilyana

Ever see the movie Fire Proof? It's a great movie, my MC suggest my H and I watch it together when his porn addiction really started to effect our marriage. It shows how devestating a pornography addiction can be on a marriage.


----------



## marksaysay

Yeah, we watched it together a few months before this all started. I went out and bought the book and started the dare but got mad at her for something and stopped. I later realized that was the wrong thing to do and again picked it up and started the plan, determined to see it through. I think I was on Day 15 or 16 when I got the "ILYBINILWY" speech. 

I later found out that she also bought the book but her copy looked virtually brand new. It was hidden in the bottom of a drawer. I don't think she ever started it. 

Anyways, that's all water under the bridge now. Understand that I know my wife has a problem. But I also have to look at things as best I can from a heavenly perspective and my inward act and her outward act are equally sinful in God's eyes. No, my act did not lead to the breakup of our family but everyone's sin have different consequences. I can't speak for her but I know mine has caused me great pain. It's not up to me to determine the length of my suffering and pain. That's God's call. I will accept my chastening and pray that HE sees fit to relieve me at some point.


----------



## Indy Nial

Look, this isn't a debate about porn this is about a man in love with has adultress wife and trying to level the playing field. This guy is desperately searching for ways to stay with his wife and if they both have issues then they are both in the same boat.

The relationship you have with your wife is not the same that you have with God. Us humans can have relationships with each other despite our flaws. That's what makes marriage so great, its 2 people accepting each other despite their flaws. It's called love. Whatever porn can be, however God views it, it has no bearing on your marriage if its in the open and being worked on. Adultery in this case has torn apart a family and now porn is being used to minimise the damage caused by the affair.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Lilyana

My H used porn in horrifying ways... And I never once even had the temptation to have an affair. If she is using that as an excuse don't believe it. 

I did have the temptation to burn smash and rip apart any porn I found (ok not temptation, i did) but I never once thought to step outside the marriage and look for attention there. I thought ok, addiction, needs help, get help.

I think my H's addiction however, has clouded his judgement, because he is the one that has chosen to have an affair.

We all have a hand in the demise of our marriages. No one is blameless. However, don't let them blame you 100 percent for all of it. Don't let them shift the blame to your lap. they need to own up to it. Just like you owned up to your addiction, your wife needs to own up to her adultress ways. Or the circle will never end.


----------



## marksaysay

You guys are really missing the point. The post really had nothing to do with my marriage or my wife. It was a personal revelation about MY sin. Im not minimizing my wife's wrong. I'm not justifying her actions. At this point, I'm starting to actually care less and less about whether or not we get back together because whatever happens is what God wants. What I did was completely acknowledge that I did wrong in Gods eyes in a way that I was not aware of. It's about me and MY relationship with MY God.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

We all have to go through a journey, especially after devastating events.

I'm glad your soul searching.

May I suggest, however, one more layer to that. If you could find a good, qualified therapist (actually with a degree in psychology), start going with one goal in mind: working on your level of self-respect. IMO, you are too much into the Nice Guy spectrum to be able to find the right mate after this. Despite how your marriage turned out, you show a LOT of signs of being too malleable, being too willing to forego your own needs to keep a woman happy. And, as you've seen, that's a recipe for disaster.


----------



## marksaysay

turnera said:


> We all have to go through a journey, especially after devastating events.
> 
> I'm glad your soul searching.
> 
> May I suggest, however, one more layer to that. If you could find a good, qualified therapist (actually with a degree in psychology), start going with one goal in mind: working on your level of self-respect. IMO, you are too much into the Nice Guy spectrum to be able to find the right mate after this. Despite how your marriage turned out, you show a LOT of signs of being too malleable, being too willing to forego your own needs to keep a woman happy. And, as you've seen, that's a recipe for disaster.


Please explain. I don't understand what you mean about being willing to forego my own needs. Actually, I don't think I am. I've actually got a really good plan in place if she were to ever break away from the "fog". And the plan includes guidelines for having both our needs met. Any of you guys ever read "His Needs, Her Needs". In my opinion, it's one of the best books on a marriages, giving a great explanation of how both parties are responsible for marital issues. It also gives great advice. I was worth my money.


----------



## turnera

I always recommend HNHN. But you also need to read No More Mr Nice Guy. 

I was talking about the way you dealt with her infidelity. Had you taken a stronger approach, a secure approach, where you said 'you want to cheat? Fine. There's the door,' she may still be with you. Because there's one thing that women want from men above all - strength. 

And in my experience, every man who tries to 'please' his wife back into being in love with him...loses her.


----------



## marksaysay

turnera said:


> I always recommend HNHN. But you also need to read No More Mr Nice Guy.
> 
> I was talking about the way you dealt with her infidelity. Had you taken a stronger approach, a secure approach, where you said 'you want to cheat? Fine. There's the door,' she may still be with you. Because there's one thing that women want from men above all - strength.
> 
> And in my experience, every man who tries to 'please' his wife back into being in love with him...loses her.


Okay, so the beginning was a huge mess because I was not aware initially of her activities until I wrongly moved out. It wasn't until moving back in for a brief period to get my own place was the infidelity discovered. I then, after confronting her, exposed and moved to Plan A. I've been on Plan B for a short while now, so what part did I do wrong?


----------



## turnera

Well, let's see. When you found out, you asked a friend to talk to her. When that didn't work, you asked your pastor to talk to her. When she griped enough, you moved back out again. And then she blackmailed you to stop you from exposing, so you did. And then you waited for the church to do something to 'change' her. And in the end? She has controlled the entire last seven months. And she's still getting what she wants.


----------



## MisguidedMiscreant

You may have already explained this so I apologize if you already have but has your WS always been into the church? I ask because on of the ploys of some of the amoral women in western culture use the church as a way to ensnare men while waiting to cast off their sheeps clothing. Maybe this is always who she's been and the porn issue was just the right time for her to strike giving her the perfect "excuse."


----------



## marksaysay

turnera said:


> Well, let's see. When you found out, you asked a friend to talk to her. When that didn't work, you asked your pastor to talk to her. When she griped enough, you moved back out again. And then she blackmailed you to stop you from exposing, so you did. And then you waited for the church to do something to 'change' her. And in the end? She has controlled the entire last seven months. And she's still getting what she wants.


First of all, I was already back out of the house when exposure was done to pastor or anyone else. Secondly, where was there blackmail? Thirdly, I left the church because pastor didn't take a stand. Fourth, most of everything I did at the beginning was completely based on a lack of understanding. I didn't really understand much of what I was being told I should do until I had already messed things up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## marksaysay

MisguidedMiscreant said:


> You may have already explained this so I apologize if you already have but has your WS always been into the church? I ask because on of the ploys of some of the amoral women in western culture use the church as a way to ensnare men while waiting to cast off their sheeps clothing. Maybe this is always who she's been and the porn issue was just the right time for her to strike giving her the perfect "excuse."


Yes, she has been. She went faithfully for the first 2 years of our relationship without me because I worked on Sunday's. She has even stated that her spirituality is important to her when I made some of the disrespecting judgments about her activities (before I knew that I was making disrespectful judgments). Another example of something I did that was totally wrong because I realize I didn't do a very good plan a on many levels.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

She said that if you didn't stop contacting people she was going to abandon the house and ruin you financially. And you did. That's blackmail. 

So what if you were already back out of the house before you exposed (though you should have exposed in October as you were advised, but you were afraid of angering her).

You left the church because the pastor didn't take a stand, but you were STILL asking HIM to take the stand that you were afraid to take.


----------



## marksaysay

turnera said:


> She said that if you didn't stop contacting people she was going to abandon the house and ruin you financially. And you did. That's blackmail.
> 
> So what if you were already back out of the house before you exposed (though you should have exposed in October as you were advised, but you were afraid of angering her).
> 
> You left the church because the pastor didn't take a stand, but you were STILL asking HIM to take the stand that you were afraid to take.


That's why she ended up filing and moving out. I went deeper with exposure including calling and emailing men she was in contact with on November 8th. She filed on November 9th. Also, what was I supposed to do that the pastor wouldn't so. I was simply asking him to be the pastor by removing her from her position and following the plan Jesus laid out in Matthew. Those were things I could not do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Look, I'm not trying to rag on you. I'm trying to give you ideas for introspection. Now that she's out of your life...work on yourself and find ways you could have done things differently. Because what you did do didn't work. Not saying her leaving is your fault, just that we should all use our bad times as LEARNING times, so we don't repeat ourselves, ok? 

And let's be honest here. You went to your pastor because you hoped he would talk her into coming back to you. If you can't at least be honest with yourself over that, you're not going to do much learning.


----------



## marksaysay

I will make an attempt tonight to speak with WW not just about the pornography revelation but also about my greater understanding of my failings as her husband based on the fact that I didn't fully "love my wife as Christ loves the church". Don't get me wrong. I still love her and would willingly take her back in spite of her physical adultery, but I failed in many respects because on many occasions I failed to put her before myself. This situation has been an extremely difficult learning experience, but it is one that I know has only come to better equip me for whatever God has for me in the future. 

Understand that I'm not making light of the fact that my wife is 50 percent responsible for our problems but this is about me and my journey. The bible states that you should confess your faults to those you have wronged whether they choose to forgive or not. I, for a long time, thought that my pornography issue was simply "lust" but last Wednesday, I finally saw it for what it was, adultery.

I don't know if all the learning and even my desire to "reconcile" matters with my wife will be enough to save my marriage since we go to mediation tomorrow, but I will continue to hold on to the understanding that, like the 3 Hebrew boys, even if God doesn't deliver, I know He's able. Add to my marital issues the fact that I am completely and utterly in financial ruin right now as so many of my bills are behind including my rent due to my job situation. I really can't afford the mediation but it is what is.

Our final hearing has been reset for June 2nd pending the mediation so is there still time for God to do something if he see's fit? Of course there is. But what I know is whatever he chooses to do is for my good and for his glory.


----------



## marksaysay

Well, I don't know what God is doing, but HE is doing something. I and wife both showed up for mediation today with the knowledge that we'd be billed for our session if we couldn't pay. Upon getting there, we were told that we had to pay $300 upfront before anything could be started. We were both then given 60 days to come up with the money. This is the 3rd time in our divorce process where things have hit a snag that really neither of us had control over. 

Wife was livid. She called questioning our reason for having to go to mediation even though she already knows. I told her that if she couldn't talk to me in a respectable way, then I would end the conversation. She wouldn't so I did.

We were supposed to be going to final hearing that was reset for June 2nd pending mediation but now that's not gonna happen. I don't know but my thoughts based on everything that has happened is that our divorce may not be in His will. I just don't know anymore.

But one thing I do know is that God is in control.


----------



## 827Aug

I don't know what to tell you. That is interesting though. I've had incidents like what you are describing happen many times throughout my own saga. In the early days after my husband walked out, I used to see those unforeseen delays as a sign. Now, I don't know anymore. However, there's no way I would have my husband back. I do wonder why all the delays though.


----------



## turnera

When were you planning to pay for it?


----------



## marksaysay

turnera said:


> When were you planning to pay for it?


When I called them to ask about payment options because of my financial situation, they told me that they would bill after they figured out the total # of hours to get it done. They said that I could pay $50/month until I paid it off, so I was going in thinking that I would have some time and so was my wife. Neither one of us can actually afford it but we couldn't agree on several issues. For example, she was trying to take my car since it is newer and I wouldn't agree to that. There were other issues as well. 

827Aug, I, too, can't help but wonder about all the delays. The first was the original rescheduling of the provisional/restraining order hearing due to the judge assigned having taught her during college (she has criminal justice degree). The second time was because we didn't agree. Now we had some control over that but she has some very unreasonable requests that I am not willing to allow. The third was today. Again, we really didn't have any control over that. 

Also, 827Aug, you guys aren't divorced yet, right? You said you thought something similar in your situation. How so? I guess a big difference with me is that I'm willing to accept wife back if she ever desires to work on marriage. I just believe with a young daughter, 2 parents at home is what's best in addition to divorce not being God's plan for marriage. Your kid's were older, weren't they?

Our final hearing should have been on March 11th. Now it seems it's not gonna happen til around August or September.


----------



## marksaysay

marksaysay said:


> Wife was livid. She called questioning our reason for having to go to mediation even though she already knows. I told her that if she couldn't talk to me in a respectable way, then I would end the conversation. She wouldn't so I did.


So wife calls this morning and confirmed my thoughts as to why she was so livid yesterday. She continued with the fog talk saying that our 10 yr marriage was a mistake because she never loved me. Then she said that she has a new man in her life and she likes him. Surprise. Surprise. Not really. But it did hurt to actually hear her say it. I think what hurt the most was to hear her say that she doesn't care about what God wants. This is about what she wants. I'm afraid those are some words she will regret saying.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

All you can do is make the best decisions for your kids at this point.


----------



## 827Aug

marksaysay said:


> Also, 827Aug, you guys aren't divorced yet, right? You said you thought something similar in your situation. How so? I guess a big difference with me is that I'm willing to accept wife back if she ever desires to work on marriage. I just believe with a young daughter, 2 parents at home is what's best in addition to divorce not being God's plan for marriage. Your kid's were older, weren't they?


No, after three years of separation my divorce is still not final. My children are now ages 21 and 17 x 2 (twins). But, my husband started this downward spiral back in 2005, so they were younger then. At that time I had a lot to lose besides the family. There was a business which grossed over $6 million annually and a considerable list of assets. I had been blessed in every way.

The first road block occurred back in 2007 soon after he threatened divorce. He and his mistress spent a week in the Bahamas. On his return flight, the airplane developed a mechanical problem and couldn't leave the Atlanta airport on schedule. After three hours another plane was brought in, and the flight finally departed. As this flight was getting ready to begin its decent into our area airport, a dense fog rolled in. The fog was so bad, the control tower diverted the fight to a city 300 miles away. The next morning the husband was told he would be getting another flight back to Atlanta by noon. Noon came, and he got bumped from that flight. He then rented a car and drove home--a six hour trip. Ironically he had been scheduled to meet with his divorce attorney on this day to file for divorce. He rescheduled his appointment only to have to cancel it. His attorney then dropped him.

Although I finally filed for divorce, there has been one delay after another. Another litigation case hit us and our divorce had to be suspended. I went into a sudden coma which delayed everything for an additional six months. My husband's divorce attorney also dropped him. There have been other things, but those are the big ones. It does make one wonder though.

Clearly the book of Job is at play in my life. I've lost almost everything now. That's okay because my family has stood behind me every step of the way. That's been by far more valuable than all the worldly possessions. With that in mind, I just accept what each day has to offer and have faith in Him. No need to over analyze everything. Have faith in God and accept what happens......and look forward to each day.


----------



## marksaysay

827Aug said:


> Clearly the book of Job is at play in my life. I've lost almost everything now. That's okay because my family has stood behind me every step of the way. That's been by far more valuable than all the world possessions. With that in mind, I just accept what each day has to offer and have faith in Him. No need to over analyze everything. Have faith in God and accept what happens......and look forward to each day.


I really have not other alternative but to have faith in him especially in light of the happenings of this morning, although I wasn't that surprised. (Did you see my post this morning).

The most bothering aspect of all of this was to hear her say in a very demanding tone of voice, "I don't care about what God wants...." That literally sent chills down my spine.


----------



## 827Aug

marksaysay said:


> The most bothering aspect of all of this was to hear her say in a very demanding tone of voice, "I don't care about what God wants...." That literally sent chills down my spine.


That's the cheater speaking. They are selfish and without a conscience. I, too, wrestled with that mindset....and how they completely turn their back on God. Several years ago a friend read a passage from Romans to me. I wished I could remember which one. But, it did make me understand the situation better. It had to do with there being a time when even God quits trying to "reason" with someone. I need to see which passage that was in.....

All of this is just so hard for a Godly person to understand.


----------



## marksaysay

827Aug said:


> That's the cheater speaking. They are selfish and without a conscience. I, too, wrestled with that mindset....and how they completely turn their back on God. Several years ago a friend read a passage from Romans to me. I wished I could remember which one. But, it did make me understand the situation better. It had to do with there being a time when even God quits trying to "reason" with someone. I need to see which passage that was in.....
> 
> All of this is just so hard for a Godly person to understand.


It's Romans 1:28, "And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient". 

At least I think that's the one you were referring to. If not, it's one that may be still applicable....


----------



## turnera

fwiw, she DOES care what God says, she's just hiding from it.


----------



## marksaysay

turnera said:


> fwiw, she DOES care what God says, she's just hiding from it.


Do you really think this? I don't believe a person who really cares would have the gall to make a statement like that because not only did I hear it, but so did HE.


----------



## turnera

Then you have no clue into the minds of a cheater or an addict of any other substance. (which is good! lol)

It's all ABOUT lying to one's self and to God.


----------



## marksaysay

I understand the lying cheater part. It's just that I hadn't seen or read about many on this site that were devout Christians. Not saying that it doesn't happen, just that she made a very bold statement for someone who has been adamant that their Christianity was important. Obviously, her actions and statements prove otherwise at this point.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## marksaysay

You know I'm doing fairly well since the revelation from my wife this morning. It's not like it was really a big surprise. I actually got a chuckle from the "fog babble" she threw out. I've read tons of stuff that are attributed to wayward spouses and she followed it in textbook fashion. One of the interesting things she said was that if she ever had to return to me, she would cheat on me and make my life a living hell. Man she is in deep.

All of this because the mediation didn't happen yesterday and that pushes the finalization of our divorce back another 2-3 months if not more. And she was mad about me hanging up on her when she called after the failed mediation appointment. She starts ranting and raving so I told her that if she wouldn't talk respectfully to me, I would hang up. She wouldn't so I did. She then goes on to tell me this morning that she was blocking my number so that I couldn't call her and sent me a text later saying, "Ur # is now BLOCKED...LMAO". To me she is acting kinda like a spoiled kid that doesn't get their way. 

She did the same thing when our first court appearance was rescheduled. So sad.....


----------



## turnera

You must be messing up her holiday plans.


----------



## marksaysay

Well, I haven't been here for a while so I thought I'd post an update. I have officially gone dark plan b. I started it Wednesday and it caught her as a total surprise. We had just had a short, brief conversation on Tuesday about daughter when it hit me. Since the failed mediation appointment and her admission of having a new man in her life, she said she would block my calls and texts. And she did. Then I realized that she could call me but I couldn't call her. That was it. 

I know it was probably long overdue but that's where I am now. She absolutely hates it. She told the intermediary that this is a way for me to control her and that she would not comply. WTH? How am I controlling her by removing myself from her life? Whether or not she wants to do, she will learn that she has to if any communication is going to be made with me. I hate to say it in such a harsh way but it is time that she crash and burn without me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Jellybeans

She is just whining cause you finally stood up for yourself and put the kabosh on her antics.
Good for you.


----------



## morituri

marksaysay said:


> Well, I haven't been here for a while so I thought I'd post an update. I have officially gone dark plan b. I started it Wednesday and *it caught her as a total surprise*. We had just had a short, brief conversation on Tuesday about daughter when it hit me. Since the failed mediation appointment and her admission of having a new man in her life, she said she would block my calls and texts. And she did. Then I realized that she could call me but I couldn't call her. That was it.
> 
> I know it was probably long overdue but that's where I am now. She absolutely hates it. *She told the intermediary that this is a way for me to control her and that she would not comply. WTH?* How am I controlling her by removing myself from her life? Whether or not she wants to do, she will learn that she has to if any communication is going to be made with me. I hate to say it in such a harsh way but it is time that she crash and burn without me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If I had a dollar for every time that a cheating spouse said that his/her betrayed spouse was 'controlling' I'd be richer than Carlos Slim, Warren Buffett and Bill Gates combined.:rofl:

If she's not going to comply with the terms of mediation then its time to 'release the legal hounds' after her and show no mercy.


----------



## marksaysay

These are not terms of mediation. They are what I have to do to totally remove myself from her life in order to heal, stay emotionally sane, and maintain any love that's left in case she would wake up from her fantasy. Our mediation fell through due to unforeseen circumstances and will be rescheduled for some time in July.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## morituri

marksaysay said:


> These are not terms of mediation. They are what I have to do to totally remove myself from her life in order to heal, stay emotionally sane, and maintain any love that's left in case she would wake up from her fantasy. Our mediation fell through due to unforeseen circumstances and will be rescheduled for some time in July.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Understood. My statement was related to the arrangement to share custody of your daughter between the two of you. I should have been more specific.

I know Dr Willard Harley's Plan A/Plan B. The one thing I don't like about Harley's approach is that he doesn't give enough concise details on how to help the betrayed spouse emotionally heal from the devastating effects of the affair. He also puts too much emphasis on emotional needs not being met as the environment for the birth of affairs and not enough on FOO (family of origin) issues inside the cheating spouse that might led them to have an affair. Though I've got to admit that his books 'His Needs, Her Needs' and 'Love Busters' are masterpieces and should be required reading in most high schools.

In any case, I agree with JellyBeans in that you're doing a great job. Keep it up. I wish you much success.


----------



## Jellybeans

Offtopic: I am not a fan of Plan A at all. I know I may be in the minority but I think it basically allows for more cake-eating.


----------



## morituri

Jellybeans said:


> Offtopic: I am not a fan of Plan A at all. I know I may be in the minority but I think it basically allows for more cake-eating.


I agree and though it has exposing the affair to the light of day by informing those closest to the affairees, it sucks by encouraging the betrayed spouse to negotiate with the wayward spouse to meet his/her emotional needs but to drop the OP first. Yeah good luck with that approach on a wayward spouse addicted to the attention of the OP.
The first step forward of exposure is sabotaged by the two steps backward of 'negotiating to meet EN'. Is it any wonder then that Plan A has a miserable record? If you don't believe me then I'd suggest that you hang around the Marriage Builders forums to judge for yourself the effectiveness of Plan A.


----------



## marksaysay

As one who is active on marriagebuilders as well, I really think plan a is to set the stage for plan b. I would agree that it is not very effective inwinning the wayward back, but I think it does wonders in creating that doubt in the mind of a wayward about what they are giving up once plan b is active.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## morituri

There is also the 'fog' of the betrayed spouse. Unlike the 'fog' of the wayward spouse, which is fantasy fueled, the betrayed's fog is fear filled. It causes the BS (or LS) to act out in ways that the WS (or DS) finds repulsive.

You want to put the doubt in the mind of a wayward spouse? Go dark and have him/her believe - falsely of course - that you are pursuing another person and that you are moving on with your life. Unless they're involved in an exit affair, there is more than a good chance that he/she will come out of the fog much sooner than later. He/She will panic that his/her BS (or LS) is no longer the consolation prize that they thought they could come back if their affair fizzled.

Like it or not, a WS (or DS) while engaging in an affair, doesn't look at his/her BS ( or LS) as a lover but as a sibling. He/She no longer views you as a sexual being. But just look at what happens when a BS (or LS) starts going out with members of the opposite sex. Your sexual value or desirability increases tremendously and often even surpasses that of the OP. Just read the success stories of BS (or LS) who have implemented this part of the 180 degrees protocols and more often than not, the unintended side effect is that their WS (or DS) have not only come out of the fog but begged to come back to the marriage.

I'm not trying to dissuade you from following Dr Harley's Plan A/Plan B but to consider other successful strategies as well.


----------



## marksaysay

morituri said:


> I'm not trying to dissuade you from following Dr Harley's Plan A/Plan B but to consider other successful strategies as well.


I know but truthfully, I never had much of an opportunity to do a proper plan a. I moved out the day she found out a day I'd downloaded porn while daughter was across the room (no, i didn't watch nor did she see anything). I thought this was the reason but found out it was just an excuse to cover up so many other things. 

I really think that plan b has a lot of the same principles of many other approaches but with a different name. Now, I will do no dating due to my beliefs that dating while married, no matter the circumstances is wrong but it will not prevent me from moving in a different direction.


----------



## morituri

marksaysay said:


> Now, I will do no dating due to my beliefs that dating while married, no matter the circumstances is wrong but it will not prevent me from moving in a different direction.


Good for you but consider that giving the impression that you're dating is totally different than actually dating. Secondly, dating is how you define it. If you define it as a way to establish a committed relationship while you're still married, then I agree with you that it is absolutely wrong. However, if you define it as a way of meeting new women for platonic friendships without crossing marital boundaries, by being totally honest about your intentions of true friendships, then dating women who share your beliefs can be a part of your healing process. I have good women friends that have been a source of valuable insight and support and whose friendship I will always treasure. If temptation is your concern then date an old lady, she's still a woman and there would be no sexual interest on your part.

You are a man of religious principles, you are now much more knowledgeable with regards to the dynamics of relationships between men and women than before you discover your wife's affair. Follow the route that best suits you and your beliefs.


----------



## marksaysay

Affaircare said:


> If you do not intend to be divorced in about 90 days (or whatever your states says the waiting period is) you MUST respond to the court. "Must" means it is not optional.
> 
> If you do not it will be signed and after 90 days (in most states) finalized.


I was looking back through my thread and found this posted back in December. It's now the middle of May with still 2-3 months to go. WOW!


----------



## turnera

marksaysay said:


> As one who is active on marriagebuilders as well, I really think plan a is to set the stage for plan b. I would agree that it is not very effective inwinning the wayward back, but I think it does wonders in creating that doubt in the mind of a wayward about what they are giving up once plan b is active.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 :smthumbup:
Mark, that is EXACTLY what Plan A is for.


----------



## morituri

morituri said:


> If temptation is your concern then date an old lady, she's still a woman and there would be no sexual interest on your part.


My version of carbon dating :rofl:


----------



## marksaysay

Well, I'm approaching the end of the first week of plan b and I'm doing fairly well. Had a tough Saturday night but I pulled through. My disloyal wife is not taking it so well though. She sent an email telling me that she would not comply with my request that all communication be done through an intermediary. She also stated that if that was the way I want then I won't know anything about my daughter.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## notreadytoquit

How old is your daughter? Is she old enough to work a cell phone. Maybe you can get her one of those prepaid plans so you can contact her directly.


----------



## marksaysay

She already has a phone so that's no problem. The big issue is, as a super control freak, my wife has lost control of the situation and it is killing her. It's funny because she went back to the courts about 3 weeks ago requesting to have our provisional agreement modified to state that I could no longer contact her via email or texts or anything. Now I've voluntarily done it, just not in the way she wants it, and she cannot handle it.


----------



## turnera

Stand tough. This is the best thing for ALL of you. If she won't teach herself, do it for her. And your kids.


----------



## marksaysay

turnera said:


> Stand tough. This is the best thing for ALL of you. If she won't teach herself, do it for her. And your kids.


What do you mean teach herself?


----------



## turnera

Take a hard look at herself. Show her by example how she should have acted.


----------



## marksaysay

I will tell you all that plan b is tough. Today is the one week mark of going dark and I don't know if I like it or not. I know that everyday will get better, at least I hope it will. I just try to keep my mind off of the affair and it is still difficult to do at this point. 

Alot of my reservation initially about going plan b was knowing I never really had a chance to do a plan a properly. Therefore, to me, going plan b was more like kissing my marriage goodbye. As a Christian, the one thing that I know and believe is that God is able to do anything in spite of the way things look so I will hold on to that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## marksaysay

So I'm starting to feel a lot better since I've gone totally dark plan b and have had no contact with wife. I still love her but at this point, I've done everything humanly possible, some good and bad, to try to pull things together. The ball is now in her court. 

Our daughter was in her first play yesterday, and I wasn't gonna go, but I decided to go anyway. I showed up about 15 mins late knowing that I wouldn't miss daughters part. I stood at the door in a very dark auditorium and recorded on my phone when she came out and did her part. Nobody knows I was there and I'll tell our daughter when I see her this weekend. 

Wife did call and leave message promptly after play was over probably mad that "i didn't show up". Her call was ignored and the message was deleted without listening. At this point, I don't feel the need to tell her anything. Daughter will know that I was there and that's all that matters right now.

I can't really say that I'm not hoping that my plan b will have a positive affect on her and our marriage because I am. I know that there are no guarantees and that Plan b is all about me. It's just a shame that she can't see the forest for the trees. She can't see someone who honestly loves her enough to forgive her ways and rebuild the family we had and the life we dreamed. 

I'm not giving up, though, because it's not over yet. But at this point I guess I have to prepare myself for the worst. I do still know and believe one thing, God can do anything.....


----------



## turnera

Good job staying strong.


----------



## marksaysay

So today I recieved a text from daughter stating that I had to pick her up from DS's apartment for my time. Obviously, this would be against my plan b because it would offer an opportunity for my spouse to come out so I just stated that I could pick her up at the regular places. Wife refused, thus I did not get to see my daughter today. I have talked and texted her today but didn't get my time. 

Does this make me the bad guy because I wouldn't budge on my plan b and give in? It's not like this is new because DS has been dropping daughter off at two different places for a while now. Daughter usually just texts me when she's there. My IM sent a message stating that I would not pick up daughter from DS's house and that this place or that place would be acceptable. Who looks bad because of this episode?


----------



## Affaircare

Marksaysay~

Just document this in a way that can be introduced as evidence in court; for example, print your texts and DS's texts, print your IM's emails stating that place A or place B would be acceptable, and then document in your calendar (the one that is a daily record of the "stuff" that DS pulls) that although this arrangement had been established (both places and times) that suddenly she refused access to your own child with no reasonable reason. 

This makes it look like she was dropping off your D at those spots before and out of the blue she decided to withhold your child. This demonstrates that she is alienating your relationship with your D. It also demonstrates that you're being reasonable and able to support a relationship between D and her mom. All this, in turn, makes you look sane and reasonable, and makes her look unstable and unreasonable. 

Sorry you didn't get to see your daughter, but court will frown on this heavily. Stay firm.


----------



## disbelief

Stay strong mark.........maybe u know but depending on your phone there's apps to back up text to email. Then they are easier to save and print
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## marksaysay

I know i shouldn't be getting info about wayward wife during plan b but I got word that she is having a hard time financially. She talked about daughter having to sacrifice her regular summer program and other things. She's talking about having to get a second job. And the thing about it is none of this has to be this way. I want to call her and reiterate the fact that she has the power to change her situation pretty quickly bit I know she has to realize it on her own. 

On another not, it about broke my heart a few nights ago when our daughter calls me at 9:30 because she was terrified of the storm that we were experiencing. I wanted to be there to comfort her but the most I could do was talk for a bit. Something has to give.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## marksaysay

NZHappy said:


> I'm a Christian as well. So I'll know you'll get this question, "when did the prodigal son come home?"
> 
> Stay the course to give in now is to welcome defeat.


I'm hoping it will work out that way. She may be too proud to admit she made a mistake or she may repent and come back. Only time will tell.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## marksaysay

So yesterday we had provisional modification hearing because wife wanted to change our visitation schedule (actually in my benefit), she wanted to take away my ability to text and email her (even though she texted me a week ago saying if the storm that was passing got to bad, I could take shelter with her and daughter). But she also wanted the judge to implement a gag order that prevented me from telling our daughter a out her infidelity not knowing that I'd already told. 

The judge didn't like that I told and asked me why. I just said it is my obligation to tell her he truth about why her family and her world has been torn apart. When my wife heard that I'd told, she made a loud gasp and began crying profusely. I have mixed emotions because I hate, even still, to see my wife cry but, at the same time, I felt that I did the right thing by telling and if it hurt her, it should. I really think my wife was crushed. 

I can't get the picture out of my head, the continuous stream of tears flowing down her face. I don't know if they were tears based on anger or tears based on regret. I can't say that I'm not somewhat hopeful that that will somehow get my wife to open her eyes to what she's doing to our daughter and family. I don't know what will happen now, but time will tell.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

NZ, Plan B isn't meant to 'work.' It's not a ploy, it's not manipulation.

It is simply removing yourself from the drama so you have time and opportunity to heal.

mark, they were tears of shame. Probably for the first time in her life. You cheat, you hurt people. Whodathunkit?


----------



## turnera

Plan B is a good path if she isn't willing to COME back. Doing a 180 while your wife is cheating only brings harm to you, as you sit back and watch her cheat. And it causes you to fall out of love with each other. 

Plan B keeps you from falling out of love AND it shows you will not be manipulated. IMO, 180 is for when you are still together and you're trying to fight the affair.

It's all his choice. You and I are obviously from different camps, so we'll have to agree to disagree.


----------



## turnera

Frankly, I hope she never DOES approach him, because she's too messed up to deal with.


----------



## morituri

Don't get your hopes up but that is some strange behavior coming from a woman who walked away from her husband to be with another man. It almost seems like she may be coming out of the fog enough to realize the damaged she has caused, not to you but to her child.


----------



## disbelief

Can only hope for the best but maybe the shock of hearing that the young one knows will burst her bubble and bring some reality back..........no matter what either way a long road.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## marksaysay

disbelief said:


> Can only hope for the best but maybe the shock of hearing that the young one knows will burst her bubble and bring some reality back..........no matter what either way a long road.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's what I'm hoping. When I say she cried, it was for like 15 minutes with tears just running profusely. She didn't even say a word to me after the hearing was over.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Can't repair until you hit rock bottom.


----------



## marksaysay

Yeah, I know. But I also know that shes having financial troubles because she told our pastor she needs to get a second job. She was also turned down yesterday for a request from a friend who confronted her about her infidelity but she told that friend they were never that close so she didn't know why I told her. That statement came back to bite her yesterday. It almost seems like things aren't going in the direction that she wanted. Also mention the fact that the divorce she thought would take 2 months is now going into the 7 month with atleast 11/2 more to go if not more.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 827Aug

marksaysay said:


> The judge didn't like that I told and asked me why. I just said it is my obligation to tell her he truth about why her family and her world has been torn apart. When my wife heard that I'd told, she made a loud gasp and began crying profusely. I have mixed emotions because I hate, even still, to see my wife cry but, at the same time, I felt that I did the right thing by telling and if it hurt her, it should. I really think my wife was crushed.


Did the judge make any comments after you explained your position? I'm glad you wife is getting fully exposed. It must be having an impact on her.


----------



## marksaysay

That was actually the only issue he gave a ruling on. He said that children should not be exposed to adult issues and that nothing else should be said. There really isn't anything else to say. 

I wanted to argue that it was not "adult" business but family business and that everyone in the family deserves to know, but I knew that wouldn't get me anywhere so I didn't.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Reality bites, huh?


----------



## marksaysay

So I told our pastor last night about what happened and about my wife's tears. He didn't agree with me telling daughter but he did say she has to now suffer fir what she's done. I called him today and he says he talked to her last night and she said that she had been strongly considering trying to reconcile but the hurt of me telling our daughter was too much. She also told him that she just wished we had been able to sit down and talk about things. 

I told him that was nonsense because I've tried so many times to just do that. I tried but she would always concentrate on my faults. She would always escalate the conversation after my repeated requests to be civil. She even had turned down the last request I made for a simple cup of coffee together. I decided a while ago that I'm done trying. If we vet divorced, we get divorced. I don't want it but it may be a reality. If we are to work things out, the ball is in her court. She knows where I stand. She knows I'm willing to take care if my part in the marital breakdown. She knows I still love her. At this point, she's gonna have to do something now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

marksaysay said:


> she said that she had been strongly considering trying to reconcile but the hurt of me telling our daughter was too much.


Yeah, right.

Straight out of the Wayward Who's Been Exposed Dialogue Book.

Every wayward says the exact same thing. I feel sorry for your pastor that he's not even a good enough counselor to know that.


----------



## 827Aug

turnera said:


> Yeah, right.
> 
> Straight out of the Wayward Who's Been Exposed Dialogue Book.
> 
> Every wayward says the exact same thing. I feel sorry for your pastor that he's not even a good enough counselor to know that.


Isn't that the truth! I heard plenty of those lines myself.

Are you now back at your original church?


----------



## marksaysay

No. He's just so close to me and my whole family. Technically he is still my pastor since i haven't formally joined the new church yet.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## marksaysay

So I talked to pastor this morning and told him basically that she is trying to play like she's the victim when she isn't. I said the only times she has said this types of statements about comic back were when she was exposed. He agreed that she is not the victim because that distinction belongs to my daughter and I. I told him that it hurt me, because of the love I still have for her, to see her crying. But I also told him I wasn't sorry for telling our daughter. 

If it hurts then it should. I've hurt for months. Our daughter will be hurt for life. I told him if she thinks that her relationship with our daughter has changed then she has the power to change it. She can give up her adulterous ways, return and commit to the family, and in the eyes of our daughter, fix the mistake she made. 

I also told him that I haven't for a while and I will not contact her. If our marriage is to survive and our family put back together, she's gonna have to make the move. I've done all I'm gonna do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 827Aug

Well said, mark. The ball is in her court. It makes me wonder if she and her boyfriend broke up.....


----------



## marksaysay

I was curious, too. Last week during a storm, she texted me and said that if the storm got really bad, I could come and take shelter with her and daughter.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

That was excellent. What you said to pastor. If it ever comes up again (you telling daughter), remind him that it's your job as a moral parent to teach your daughter the morals she needs to run a healthy, happy life as an adult. To see a parent tear a family apart through infidelity and NOT discuss it, is just as bad as cheating itself. Children learn from what their parents do AND from what they tell them. Daughter is learning from what her mom did (being selfish) AND from what you say and do. She needs to HEAR that cheating is wrong, and see that cheating ruins your life. Otherwise, she'll blame herself for losing mom.


----------



## lordmayhem

turnera said:


> That was excellent. What you said to pastor. If it ever comes up again (you telling daughter), remind him that it's your job as a moral parent to teach your daughter the morals she needs to run a healthy, happy life as an adult. To see a parent tear a family apart through infidelity and NOT discuss it, is just as bad as cheating itself. Children learn from what their parents do AND from what they tell them. Daughter is learning from what her mom did (being selfish) AND from what you say and do. She needs to HEAR that cheating is wrong, and see that cheating ruins your life. Otherwise, she'll blame herself for losing mom.


:iagree:

And the kids need to know that the breakup of the family was not their fault.


----------



## marksaysay

I wanted to make sure I told him that today because he said he was going to talk to her today. I also told him that if he wanted to really help, that he should feed it to her straight. Since she claims that she is spiritually where she needs to be, he needs to tell her that all the lies and deciet, the adultery, the unbiblical divorce, the anger and lack of forgiveness, the lack of church attendance, and her walking away from her church duties are not signs of a spiritually healthy individual. I told him that those things need to be addresed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## marksaysay

Well, after the events of the last few days, today has not been the best. It has been good in the sense that I got to spend time with daughter and I loved hearing her say how much fun she had. I just can not seem to let go of the hope that my wife will just wake up. It's been 7 months since she filed and there's probably still another month or two to go before we get to the final hearing. Heck, the judge even stated that it was odd to see a couple still going through divorce proceedings after this long (in Indiana, minimum is 60 days). 

Some days, I think that, because neither one of us were really responsible for the delays, that God doesn't seem to want it to happen. Other days, I don't know. Don't get me wrong, I trust that things will work out the way he wants them, the hard part is just waiting. I've gotten to the point, on a number of occasions, where I simply accepted the fact that I would be divorced. Then a delay occurs and the hope for my marriage and family that I thought I'd let go of comes back. I really hate feeling like this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

What are you doing to change your life?


----------



## marksaysay

I started back running. Trying to get into my playing shape again. What makes it tough is being so lonely once the day is over. I have no family to visit or friends to hang out with so at the end of the day, it's just me. I read and study the bible a lot so that helps. It's just very difficult when you virtually have no support system around. Again, my nearest family is 3 states away.

I have no cable because I can't afford it. I no longer have a laptop because either my battery or power cord has died and I can't afford to replace wither right now. I used my laptop for the jazz piano course that I'd purchased and had been working through, and the p90x program that was downloaded onto it. There are no support groups around as I've searched. I don't go to bars. I'm not dating as I believe it's wrong to do so since I'm still married. I can't afford a gym membership. 

You told me to make friends in my apartment complex months ago and an effort was made but, as a minister, it's difficult for me to regularly surround myself with those who swear every other word, who care nothing about morals, who drink alcohol nonstop,who play video games all day. Maybe my standards are too high but theyve always been that way as I've never really had a lot of real friends. It's okay. I've dealt with it for the last 7 months and I guess I will have to deal with it until there is some resolution to my marital situation. 

If my wife wakes from the fog and decides to return to marriage, then everything else will take care of itself. If she doesn't, then I will be free to re-enter the world of dating which will also eliminate much of what I'm dealing with. One way or another, things will work themselves out n
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Why don't you have any friends?


----------



## marksaysay

I've never really had many friends. I'm the type of person that doesn't like to do things just because everyone else does. I have a lot of acquaintances but no real friends. I very rarely have anyone call me just to see how I'm doing. But it's okay
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Well, obviously it's not. 

Humans aren't meant to just have one partner and forsake the rest of society. Maybe that was an issue with your wife, if you believed that, or acted accordingly. 

It's not healthy for you to not have friends. Believe me, I get it. I'm solitary, and I'd rather have lunch by myself with a book than go out with coworkers. 

But I do it anyway because I learned that being that solitary harmed ME. 

What does it mean, 'just because everyone else does'? 

What's wrong with getting to know someone a little better? What's wrong with saying to a coworker "Hey, I'm gonna stop at Barneys after work and play a game of pool. Wanna come?"


----------



## marksaysay

It means I've always done the opposite of what everyone else does. I don't go with the in crowd. No, there's nothing wrong with doing that but I work with mostly women other than my boss and another individual who only talks about going out drinking. As a matter of fact, my coworkers regularly get together at bars but I'm not invited, mainly because they know I won't go to bars (I am a minister).
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 827Aug

Don't feel alone mark--I'm almost the same way. Although I have some friends, much of our activities were spent doing hobby related activities. Now that I have very little money, I can't exactly participate in those hobbies. We still chat on the phone, but it's not the same. I've never been a social butterfly either. Also, I live in the middle of nowhere--I typically only see family most days. But, I'm very close to nature. Do all the animals count as friends?!


----------



## marksaysay

There is a guy at my apartment building I somewhat hang out with. It's reall not much more than watching games together and stuff. He's known my wife and her family all his life and was best friends with her brother who is now incarcerated. He's oddly enough in a similar situation although he and his stbxw have been going through seperation/divorce for almost 3 years. He has chosen to go a little different route by deciding to get someone else when he discovered his wife's infidelity. I won't do that. 

He, nor his family whom I know, are spiritual and I've talked to him about things such as my not drinking and why I won't date until I'm divorced. I won't force my spiritual beliefs on him although I elude to what I believe quite often. Other than that, I just find it difficult. I'm friendly with everyone. I speak to all the neighbors. I have had conversations with many of them. As I stated before, I have many acquaintances but not many friends. To me, a friend is someone who has your back and you theirs. They have similar beliefs and morals and enjoy doing many of the same things as you. The people that know I'm a minister don't really want me as their friend because being around me makes them uncomfortable. They dont want to do what they normally do, i.e. The drinking, the swearing, the weed smoking, etc. When they're around me so they choose to keep me at an acquaintance level. I notice their lack of comfort when they're around me too so it makes me uncomfortable as well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

I don't understand why you don't look outside this group for friends.

I'm sure we've discussed this before, you getting outside your comfort zone. How else can you grow and learn and improve your life? Surely there are hobbies you may find interesting. Clubs you can join. They don't have to be associated with your church. 

There's no reason for you to be going home every night to an empty house. I mean, eventually, yeah, but you could be filling your life with other things, too. What do you say?


----------



## turnera

And btw, 'good' friendships don't just spring up overnight. They are built, one 'hangout' at a time. You have to start somewhere, take a chance on getting to know people, to get to that point.


----------



## marksaysay

I guess it really boils down to a couple of things. 1) I am not and never have been the type of person who wanted or needed to surround myself with a bunch of people to be happy. I didn't in school. I didn't before I met my wife. I guess I really don't now. Those I hung out with back at the beginning of my marriage were simply due to them being acquaintances of my wife since I live in the town where she grew up. 2) I won't compromise who I am and what I believe just to make friends. 

There are tons of things that I like to do and many people I've come to know because of those things such as golf, pool, softball, bowling, etc. Most of things things I can't do right now due to my financial situation. I don't go to bars anymore. I don't gamble and play poker to the wee hours of the night anymore. Plus, most of the people I've met in those activities are just that, activity partners and not friends. We don't call each other through the week to chat. We called each other if we wanted to play golf, etc. And since I haven't done many of those things for a while, even those types of calls don't come anymore. 

Again, understand that I am friendly with everyone. I don't consider anyone to be a stranger but I am just so guarded when it comes to friendships. I have, over the years, had many whom I thought were friends but only turned out to be just someone I knew because when I really needed them, they weren't there. It's experiences like those that taught me a lot about true friends. To me, friend is a term that is used too loosely because everyone you call a friend really isn't. 

I greatly understand your concern and your viewpoint, but at this point, I guess I'll just have to stay where I'm at and deal with things the way they are.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## marksaysay

So there have been some very crazy events happen over the weekend. I "accidentally" caught my wife with OM (not being sexual) while my daughter was with me. She ends up filing a RO today because she says she felt threatened. I didn't get violent or confrontational. I didnt threaten either of them. I just asked the OM, whom my wife initially and adamantly said didn't exist, to leave so I could talk to my wife. He tells me that she's no longer my wife because she has filed for divorce. I wanted to so badly to beat his brains in, but I'm no longer the person I was 10-12 years ago, luckily for him. I ended up just leaving wih my daughter. 

I also get news from my wife's cousin saying that he family is tired of our whole ordeal and that they thought I was wrong for exposing my wife. This is the first ive heard about the exposure. She says if I want my wife back, exposing her was the wrong thing to do because it does nothing but make her madder at me and push me farther away. She says I need to stop being hateful and vindictive and more loving and compassionate and that I should stop trying to make my wife look bad. I simply replied by saying I was sorry they had to find out but I only told the truth. If she doesn't want to look bad, she has the option to stop what she's doing. I said if she's mad it's because her dirty little secret is no longer a secret.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Crazy, sad people, aren't they? All hanging together in their delusion of 'if it makes you happy, it's right.' Personally, you ought to be glad you escaped that family.


----------



## lordmayhem

marksaysay said:


> So there have been some very crazy events happen over the weekend. I "accidentally" caught my wife with OM (not being sexual) while my daughter was with me. She ends up filing a RO today because she says she felt threatened. I didn't get violent or confrontational. I didnt threaten either of them. I just asked the OM, whom my wife initially and adamantly said didn't exist, to leave so I could talk to my wife. He tells me that she's no longer my wife because she has filed for divorce. I wanted to so badly to beat his brains in, but I'm no longer the person I was 10-12 years ago, luckily for him. I ended up just leaving wih my daughter.


As for the RO, I suggest you get the advice of a lawyer once you are served. You have a certain amount of time to respond to this RO and have a hearing wherein you can contest it and tell the judge your side of the story. He can then throw it out.



marksaysay said:


> I also get news from my wife's cousin saying that he family is tired of our whole ordeal and that they thought I was wrong for exposing my wife. This is the first ive heard about the exposure. She says if I want my wife back, exposing her was the wrong thing to do because it does nothing but make her madder at me and push me farther away. She says I need to stop being hateful and vindictive and more loving and compassionate and that I should stop trying to make my wife look bad. I simply replied by saying I was sorry they had to find out but I only told the truth. If she doesn't want to look bad, she has the option to stop what she's doing. I said if she's mad it's because her dirty little secret is no longer a secret.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Of course her family would support her, blood is thicker than water in most cases.


----------



## 827Aug

lordmayhem said:


> Of course her family would support her, blood is thicker than water in most cases.


That and they are embarrassed too. Of course, they don't like everyone finding out the truth.


----------



## marksaysay

turnera said:


> Crazy, sad people, aren't they? All hanging together in their delusion of 'if it makes you happy, it's right.' Personally, you ought to be glad you escaped that family.


I have always known they have a different way of seeing things. It's not really surprising. But I can't say I'm glad. If my wife were to come to her senses and commit to doing what's necessary to make our marriage what it should be, I would take her back. I'm not saying under any conditions but if certain conditions were would, yes, I would take her back, crazy family and all. 

I still love her as crazy as it sounds. I still want what's best for our daughter, her mom and dad raising her under the same roof. It may not happen, but I wouldnt feel bad about it. 

A comment that was also made was that none of them could make her do anything. I said I was aware of that but my hope was that if enough people spoke out against what she was doing, it's possible that the pressure would cause her to stop and reevaluate things. She really didn't have a response for that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## broken1

marksaysay said:


> A comment that was also made was that none of them could make her do anything. I said I was aware of that but my hope was that if enough people spoke out against what she was doing, it's possible that the pressure would cause her to stop and reevaluate things. She really didn't have a response for that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Battling the same stuff with my wife's family/friends... Not a single person in her life that is actually giving it to her straight (she has made sure of that). It all the "we just want you to be happy" crap. I'm the only person to date that has actually told her "don't do this. Its wrong, you'll regret it, our kids deserve more effort from their parents."

Yeah, well... you can probably guess how well that went coming from me... My wife thinks she is thinking totally independently without letting anyone else influence her decisions. Not true. Their lack of confronting her has great influence. I still beleive that if all the sudden her parents and best friend took the position of being totally against what she's doing, it would make her think. But there's no sense in even wasting my thoughts on that because it isn't going to happen and there's nothing I can do about them.

Sorry you're going through this Mark. IT IS ABSOLUTE TORTURE. I KNOW. Praying...


----------



## marksaysay

NZHappy said:


> Mark - I've read this thread for a long time - read it and re-read it again and again.
> 
> I really feel for you man.
> 
> But one thing is clear - you are still trying to win back someone who is still deep in the fog - that's proven not to work and will only push her further away.
> 
> Mate - I've said it before and I'll say it here for the last time - you need to to 180 hard if you ever hope for her to come out of the fog for fresh air.
> 
> Good luck


I haven't pursued her in a long time. Okay, maybe the way I responded to seeing her with OM wasnt exactly 180, but I haven't called her, texted her, emailed her for a long time. I haven't been chasing her. I've done nothing for a while. What have I done in your opinion that says I'm trying to win her back?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## marksaysay

^I don't know if he left, but he went to his car. Maybe he did or maybe he didn't. I just got my daughter and left without really talking to wife so I don't know. Yes, I do have a candle burning for her and I can't deny it. I guess until those papers are signed and the divorce is final, I will always have that hope.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

If you want her back, divorce her. PROVE to her that you deserve better than what she's dishing. Make her wish she had you, by you not wanting her.

THEN you can start dating again, and you can insist on a prenup agreement and therapy before marrying again.


----------



## marksaysay

^so do I simply do that and let her have everything she wants. We were ordered to mediation because she was trying to take my car, walk away from the financial responsibility of our marital home, etc. Plus, that won't take place until late July or early August. Btw, our first attempt at mediation fell through in May because the mediation office told us both we could make monthly installments to cover the cost, but when we showed up, they then tell us we had to pay $300 upfront. 

It's these kinds of snags that keep happening that almost cause me to believe its just not Gods will. Obviously I can't say for sure but it almost seems that way.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Indy Nial

Little bit worried about your antisocial behaviour you don't make friends because you want to. You make friends so that you develop as a person. Have you ever considered that maybe you don't need friends but other people do? Your view is selfish and depriving others of getting to meet and know a Christian. You're supposed to be a witness, what kind of impression do you think a porn loving, anti social divorcee makes? Is really how you want people around you to view you?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## marksaysay

First of all, I'm a former porn lover. Secondly, I'm more than simply a Christian. I'm an ordained minister. One who has dealt with a terrible addiction, but that still puts more of a bullseye on me so I have to be especially careful with where I go and what I do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Indy Nial

Did Jesus take that approach when he talked to the woman at the well?

And you are simply a christian, there are no ranks in God's army. Are you now implying that you're special because you're ordained. Minister or not you are just another Christian. And your ministry should be to those around you.

Re-read some of your comments... they all start with "I"


----------



## turnera

Great points.


----------



## marksaysay

Indy Nial said:


> Re-read some of your comments... they all start with "I"


I guess I'm somewhat perplexed as to the meaning of this. You've made comments about me but I can't use the word "I"? I fully understand that I'm nothing special, just one who is being used in a different capacity than most. I don't go around even introducing myself as a reverend or minister. I'm still just Mark. But the truth is the perception of a minister in the eyes of layman and unsaved alike is what can hinder my ministry. Yes, I will know the truth about why I went to a certain place but others won't. 

I learned this lesson the hard way about 7 years ago when people started rumors that I was having an affair with a coworker with whom I was friends. There was nothing going on, and I have since learned that the friendship probably wasn't the best idea to begin with, but my marriage almost ended then because of the perception.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Interesting. How did your wife react?


----------



## marksaysay

She asked me to stop talking with her and stuff which I initially didn't because I knew I wasn't cheating. I would never do that. We were smoking buddies because she and I were the only two in our department that smoked. I eventually did though. She actually told her cousin, the one that made the comments about my exposure, that that situation was the beginning of the end of our marriage. Really? Is that how it works ladies?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Well, if you refused to stop being friends with the woman...you flat out disrespected your wife and chose your personal wants ahead of hers. So, yeah...at the very least it could have been an indicator of an improper balance.


----------



## marksaysay

You're probably right. Again, I'm not saying I was right but I did it. It was something I had to learn from.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Indy Nial

> I am not and never have been the type of person who wanted or needed to surround myself with a bunch of people to be happy. I didn't in school. I didn't before I met my wife. I guess I really don't now.


You say I 6 times in the above paragraph



> I won't compromise who I am and what I believe just to make friends.


Just how exactly do you compromise yourself by being friends!?

Making friends isn't about you, its a 2 way street, just because you don't want to doesn't make it OK. Its not healthy and as someone who supposedly has this great faith why aren't you out sharing it with people?

What if there is some guy whose wife just left him and is contemplating suicide? There you are just looking out for yourself when you could be helping others. What if this is what God has planned for you? Maybe its his will for you to reach those who are suffering from the fallout of infidelity. You have great insight and experience, you could be helping to restore people's faith.

I've followed your thread and I have to be honest, you come across as a whinny, self righteous, self justified, loner who feels like God is punishing him. You complain about not having enough money, how hard done by you are yet you have this faith that should set you apart from everyone else. Anytime someone disagree with you you hide behind your religion as though you are unique and special, no one can understand except God.

Seriously, just seize life with both hands and give it everything you've got. Push yourself out there, be seen, show people how strong your faith really is and how it can overcome any obstacle no matter how impossible the situation is.


----------



## marksaysay

I share my faith everywhere I go. I try to live the best I can and as close as humanly possible to what the bible teaches. I fall often, but I get back up. And I have been helping others. There is an individual at my apartment complex in a similar situation. There is a coworker whom I've been helping in a similar situation. There is one co worker who had an issue in her marriage that I was able to help. There is another coworker who is soon getting married that I've recommended books and things that would help her and her future husband avoid some of he pitfalls my wife and I made in our marriage. I've been helping alot of people. 

I have never felt that God was punishing me but preparing me for a greater work that will be revealed in his timing. When you speak of the grat faith I profess having, I try my best to exhibit it everyday. I've even had a couple of people who are aware of my situation say that they couldn't believe how well I was dealing wih things. Yes, I have my bad days and most of the time the nights are the worst. But in my public life, not many people would even know the struggles that I encounter from time to time. I believe the quote of the great C.H. Spurgeon which says "Gods greatest vessels are recruited from the battlefield of adversity". Yes, I'm experiencing a very difficult time but I will rise. 

As it is described in Hebrews, faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen. It's believing something that has not become a reality. I've believed that God would sustain me in spite of my financial struggles and he has. I've believed that God would give me the strength to endure and he has. I've believe that good will come out of this and in many ways it has. It's taught me a lot about my past mistakes. It's enabled me to finally free myself from pornography. It's helped me learn about what a real husband should be. It's helped me understand why God hates divorce (the termoil and destruction it causes to families). I could go on and on. Will it result in a reconciled marriage? Only time will tell. 

Whinnying? I may not consider what I've done as whining. Using this place as a way to vent some of my frustrations and thoughts, maybe.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MisguidedMiscreant

If the man doesn't want to make friends then he doesn't want to make friends, I think it's admirable that he's standing on his own two feet and doing things his own way. Mark, you may know it being a minister but there's a verse in The New Testament about this topic. It basically says that you should pray to God and God alone about your troubles, talking to others only accomplishes the goal of them hearing about them so God isn't needed anymore. So, maybe the reason God hasn't stepped in yet for anyone going through this is because He hasn't been asked properly. 

I wish I could remember the passage but I believe it's in the first three books.

It said something about praying in the closet.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## marksaysay

All I can say is WOW! Got a message from another of my wife's relatives today via Facebook, one to whom I had also exposed to. She pretty much said my wife knows right and wrong and that it's not her place to bring anything to her attention or say anything about what she's doing. I've never seen so many people who are afraid to stand for what's right. In my family, if you are messing up, there's not many who won't tell you. WOW! They would rather watch a loved one sink than try to help them up out of the pit.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## marksaysay

MisguidedMiscreant said:


> If the man doesn't want to make friends then he doesn't want to make friends, I think it's admirable that he's standing on his own two feet and doing things his own way. Mark, you may know it being a minister but there's a verse in The New Testament about this topic. It basically says that you should pray to God and God alone about your troubles, talking to others only accomplishes the goal of them hearing about them so God isn't needed anymore. So, maybe the reason God hasn't stepped in yet for anyone going through this is because He hasn't been asked properly.
> 
> I wish I could remember the passage but I believe it's in the first three books.
> 
> It said something about praying in the closet.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It's Matthew 6:6 and it does speak about private prayer. Proverbs also talks about a wise person is one that seeks council. I don't think there's anything wrong with advise. You just have to be careful about whose advise you accept and whose you reject.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

marksaysay said:


> All I can say is WOW! Got a message from another of my wife's relatives today via Facebook, one to whom I had also exposed to. She pretty much said my wife knows right and wrong and that it's not her place to bring anything to her attention or say anything about what she's doing. I've never seen so many people who are afraid to stand for what's right. In my family, if you are messing up, there's not many who won't tell you. WOW! They would rather watch a loved one sink than try to help them up out of the pit.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Did you respond with this exact message? You should have.


----------



## marksaysay

I didn't say the same thing but something similar. I told her that, yes, god is in contr, but he most often uses earthly vessels to help accomplish his purpose, much like evangelism. If no one plants the seeds, they dint give Him much to work with. 

As inthought about it even more, I actually became quite troubled and more hopeful at the same time. I'm troubled because it makes me think that my daughter will probably get the same treatment. They probably wouldn't say anything to her if she was going down a wrong path. It makes ms more hopeful that things turn around because I want an opportunity to be there 100% of the time to teach her and influence her. I know I can still if the divorce happens, but I won't get the chance to do it everyday. I won't get he chance to speak up when no one else will if she's with her mom and her family. It really saddened me to think about that. I already have to remind her to say grace over her food, something that never happened when I was with her everyday. Yes, that may be just a small thing but as she grows, there will be even more of a need to have steady and consistent positive influence and not what my wife is getting.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## AFEH

Mark you followed the advice of some people here and exposed your wife’s affair to her family and you also told your seven year old daughter about it.

You would take your wife back, yet both of your actions have driven your wife and her family further away from you making it very much less likely that your wife will return to you.

If you could turn back the clock, would you expose your wife to her family and friends and your daughter?

And if you had someone in a similar situation to your own seeking your advice, would you recommend that they expose their wife’s affair to their children, family and friends?

Maybe you can help me out here with your Christianity? I can see where your Devil is in exposing, but for the life of me I can’t see where your God is in exposing.


----------



## marksaysay

I don't regret the exposure. I don't regret telling the truth. I don't regret any of that. Where is God in my exposure? He's there in the sense that his word teaches things done in the dark will come to light. He there in the fact that sin thrives on secrecy. Jesus exposed the Pharisees and all they were doing. I don't regret any of it and I feel confident that I did the right thing. 

Right now, I seem to be at the point where I just want to throw in the towel, give her the divorce, give her anything she wants, let her have my car, let her stick me with financial responsibility of our marital home, let her just walk away and move on. I've fought hard for my wife, my family, and for the Godly ordained institution of marriage. But ive learned in life that, no matter how hard you fight, there are some battles you just can't win. This just may be one of those battles. 

I will continue to seek Gods direction and wait on his prompting as to my next course of action. But if it was up to me and the way I feel right now, I'm DONE!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Just because you divorce doesn't mean you have to give her all your money.


----------



## iamnottheonlyone

I think that exposure makes it more difficult for the proud person to return. Once I exposed my wife she talked of me to others like I was the devil. She represented to others that I was controlling one. Of course we know they all claim this. Isn't asking someone to not be close to some one of the opposite sex controlling? Or to come home after work? Or if your spouse is a flight attendant, asking that when she works the Carribean she not rush to the pool to have drinks with the pilots? Are they disrespectful or are we controlling?


----------



## marksaysay

turnera said:


> Just because you divorce doesn't mean you have to give her all your money.


I don't have any money. I have literally been financially decimated as a result of this whole ordeal. At this point, what I know is that, when I met my wife, I didn't have a pot to pee in. We spent the last 11 years building our lives together. If I just cut off the source of my turmoil no matter the cost, I know that I will be able to rebuild. 

I don't really care about it at this point. If she wants out, I'll accept my losses and move on. If I did it once, I can do it again. That's just where I am at this point.


----------



## marksaysay

iamnottheonlyone said:


> Once I exposed my wife she talked of me to others like I was the devil. She represented to others that I was controlling one. Of course we know they all claim this. Are they disrespectful or are we controlling?


I think it may be a little of one and a lot of the other. I may a little controlling in that you are asking someone to do what's right. If I'm considered controlling by asking my wife to be faithful, then so be it. I believe it's mostly disrespect.


----------



## 827Aug

ABOUT WHETHER TO EXPOSE:

I followed several people's advice and elected not to expose my husband's shenanigans for 2 1/2 years. I was very nice to him and ignored all of the bad behavior. I gave an inch and he took a mile. The humiliation of being a doormat took its toll. And guess what else? The more money he robbed from our business to fund all of the sugar babies, the more his heart hardened for me. After all, I was being nice. That enable a spark to turn into a raging wildfire that no one can contain even to this day. 

My regrets? That I didn't bust him when he told me he made a new friend in September 2006. At that point his cheating and lying were not a way of life. Then, some shame would have meant something. He still cared that he had the respect of a community and a family. Also, that's when I should have done the 180.....while he still cared what I thought. Mark, perhaps that is also your regret, that you didn't expose sooner?


----------



## marksaysay

I did expose but not very well. The last exposure was a lot bigger and I've gotten some feedback from it, not the kind I wanted, though. I dont think exposure at anytime would have mattered much. Her family just doesn't have the boldness to speak out against someone who is doing wrong.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 827Aug

marksaysay said:


> I dont think exposure at anytime would have mattered much. Her family just doesn't have the boldness to speak out against someone who is doing wrong.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Or it may be like my therapist and divorce lawyer tell me...... A person as messed up as my husband didn't just happen. He came from a family as dysfunctional as he is. Therefore, I can't expect a lot of guidance from any of them. Had I done a fraction of the things my husband did, my family would have come down very hard on me. There's no telling what they would have done! But, still had I exposed the mess my husband was doing 2 1/2 years earlier, I would be in a much better place now.


----------



## marksaysay

827Aug said:


> Or it may be like my therapist and divorce lawyer tell me...... A person as messed up as my husband didn't just happen. He came from a family as dysfunctional as he is. Therefore, I can't expect a lot of guidance from any of them. Had I done a fraction of the things my husband did, my family would have come down very hard on me. There's no telling what they would have done! But, still had I exposed the mess my husband was doing 2 1/2 years earlier, I would be in a much better place now.


Same here. My family would've chewed me a new one. 

On another note, I had a long conversation with my wife tonight. It started kinda rocky but calmed down and she actually listened. In the conversation, I basically told her if she wants the divorce, she can have it. I think I'm gonna go to the court tomorrow and file a motion. My head tells me to just give her what she wants, don't worry about mediation, and just be done with it. She told me things may have worked out if I hadn't tried to bully her (by asking her to stop committing adultery?) and if I hadn't have twisted my stories with her family, if I hadn't have told people. I didn't believe a word of it. 

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## broken1

Mark, I don't agree with what you did as far as exposing your wife. I know what you're saying about Matthew 18 but even still, the end result of that scripture is not "If he still refuses to listen, expose him to everybody and try to shame them into repentance." I also don't think there is a comparison between this and Jesus exposing the pharisees. Your wife is a lost, deceived, sinner... she is not a respected leader of the church teaching false doctrine. Thats why Jesus was so hard on the Pharisees. Because they had been given great authority in His kingdom and were using for personal gain. They were leading the multitudes to hell. That's not what's happening here... As a husband, your job is to wash her in the water of the word and present her without blemish. Don't you think that means in front of other people too?

Look, I know its tempting. I've thought about posting everything I know about my wife on facebook. But other than my close friends and family, I haven't gone around blabbing about it. She knows what she's doing. Someday, I will want my kids to know what happened. But 7 is too young. You did it out of anger and spite. You need to see this and ask forgiveness.

As far as how to proceed right now? If I was you, I'd just let it go. Don't file divorce, don't do anything. Just leave it alone. Do YOU want a divorce? Then why would you file? If she wants it let her file. One thing that keeps me halfway encouraged these days is knowledge of something I heard a few weeks ago. That's this:

_The main reason these type of situations rarely end up in reconciliation is because the LS gets mad and gives up. _

Don't give up. Just stop focusing on it so much. Whether you separate, divorce, or whatever... It is almost guaranteed that at some point she will sorely regret what she has done. You might get another chance with her someday. But in the mean time there is absolutely nothing you can do. In fact, your not letting go is making you do things that are making it worse. Focus your perspective back on eternity. What else really matters right? This life is but a vapor. Move on. Find who YOU are again, love your daughter with everything you have and just... start moving on. YOU CANT CONTROL THIS. I know you want to. I wan't to control my situation. I want to fix it. It is all so fixable. But you are helpless. Only she and God can do it. So let them hash it out, let her see you getting healthy and becoming the strong man she probably fell in love with and maybe you'll get another chance with her. But if you don't, you need to do this anyway. Life isn't going to stop.

Your situation is NOT impossible. Worse situation have turned around to full restoration. But maybe God is trying to show you that your wife had become an idol in your life. Do you love her more than God. Is this separation becoming an idol in your life? Would you compromise on your beliefs a little bit just to have her back? When I answered that question truthfully for the first time I realized I had been compromising for a LONG time. I thought I was just doing right by my wife and making her happy. But slowly I was breaking down the foundation that our relationship was supposed to be grounded on. Once the foundation is gone it doesn't take much storm to come crashing down.

Mark you seem like a really great guy. You seem very grounded and committed to your beliefs. But you also seem very stubborn. Your replies to many of the postings indicate that you are able to defend just about everything you do with scripture. Maybe you just need to listen more. Maybe God is trying to show you what to learn from all this and you aren't listening. Jesus didn't go around defending his position. In fact, when under attack, he largely stayed quiet and humble. He walked in a divine confidence. Thats all he needed. He knew he was right by the Father and it didn't matter what anyone else said or did that might indicate otherwise. He was content with every circumstance knowing that he was in the center of Gods will. That's all that truly matters right?

I'm not a minister mark. You probably know what I'm saying better than I do. Or maybe I'm not making any sense at all. I know that I pray every day for my wife and hope with all my heart I'll have her back someday. I'm actually getting choked up right now thinking about her. But ALL THINGS WORK TOGETHER FOR GOOD. One way or another you just have to know that your purpose right now is the same as its always been. Align yourself in God's will. Get healthy. Raise your child to know Him and love him. "And if your wife insists on leaving, let her go."

I will continue to pray for you.


----------



## AFEH

That was said with Grace, a living Grace, it’s as things should be. Fabulous. I sincerely hope you’ve helped Mark on his way to a better life.

Bob


----------



## marksaysay

Understand that I didn't go out and just to anyone and expose. It was to family a couple of close family friends. And the passage in Matthew is for the purpose of bringing a lost sheep back to the fold. In most cases, public exposure, taking it to the church, is not even needed because most would have repented after either step one or two. If I had to do it again, I would still expose. If she's mad, it's because her family knows what she's doing. I just wish I had nothing to expose. She said I embarrased her. Her actions did that. She does have the option to stop. If asked, instead of continuing, she could stop. 

I didn't do anything out of spite or anger. I did it with the hope that enough people would speak against her wrong and simply cause her to stop and really think about what she was doing. I don't want her to hurt. I just would like for her to just turn back to God. I know there is no guarantee that she would come back to me. Turning back to God would suffice because of the danger she keeps putting herself in. Meeting up with guys, and there has been more than one, from a dating website is just dangerous. I really have all but lost hope for my marriage, but I still care enough for her to not want to see any harm done to her. I know I can't control her and nor can anyone else. I know God is in control but I also know that he uses human vessels to help bring about his plan, much like evangelism. If nobody tells someone about the errs of their ways, no one would ever recognize a need for Christ in their life. In order for that to happen, someone has to know. 

As far as the divorce goes, she filed quite a long time ago. I was just tempted to go and speed up the process so as to get it over with. I don't think I actually will. I do agree that I shouldnt give up because it may be that God has allowed all the roadblocks in our process for a reason and I would never know if I threw in the towel. As far as focusing on it, the times that are the hardest are when I go home every night. Those are the roughest. Before Saturday, I don't think I had actually laid eyes on her, excluding our June 2nd court date, in over 2 months. I haven't called her, emailed her, texted her since April. All the correspondence we've had since April has been initiated by her. Satuday wasn't planned. It caught me off guard and I overreacted, but it was just so unexpected. 

I know my situation is not impossible but at times I can't say I don't wish there hadn't been setbacks during our process. Everytime I get to the point of acceptance such as prior to our initial final hearing in March that wasn't final, and prior to our initial attempt at mediation in May that didn't happen, the set back causes all the emotions that seemed to be dormant to return with the thought that maybe God doesn't want us to get a divorce. One scripture i have come to really understand is proverbs 13:12 which says, "deferred hope maketh the heart sick..." (i know, there i go with scripture again When you say has this separation become my idol, what do you mean? That I focus on it more than I do on God? Every morning I wake up with prayer. Just about every evening I spend a lot of time studying the bible. I give God all the credit for helping me and sustaining me for as long as He has, because I know I couldn't make it without him. I'm not being sarcastic when I ask, but please help me understand how I've made it my idol. If you've noticed something I'm not aware of, I'd like to know. 

I guess I do agree with the fact that I've supported most of my arguments with scripture. It is something I feel I have a decent understanding of, even though I strive to know more. I guess my question is am I not supposed to govern my every action by what I believe in the most? I don't know what else to do. When you say listen, I think my problem is not that I don't, it's that I've been listening to too many people. Throughout this process, I admit to having made many mistakes and that is probably my biggest one. I think that from now until there's some resolution, I might just need to stay away from here. I thought this might help me by being able to vent, but I think it's done just the opposite. 

I would like to see the response to this post, but after today, the next time you will probably hear from me is with the news of a start in the reconciliation or the finalization of the divorce.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

broken, how much reading have you done about exposing? You sound like you are viewing it as the WS does - as revenge. 

A married man has a responsibility to protect his marriage and his wife from an interloper. And the chemical, mental change that a wife goes through (or an unfaithful husband) once an affair starts COMPLETELY, TEMPORARILY CHANGES that person. It's well documented that the cheater becomes akin to a drug addict - they LITERALLY crave the good feelings they get from the PEA chemicals coursing through their veins, every time they think of, let alone see, their affair partner. They do anything to keep it coming - lie, justify, change history, throw people under the bus, give up their money and jobs and familes.

They almost never quit it on their own.

And the longer it goes on, the more scorched earth there is to repair.

Thus it behooves the BS to STOP the affair in the best way possible. And psychologically speaking, the best way to get someone to quit what's bad for them is to realize that the bad is not worth it. Too much to lose - like the dismay, disgust, and disapproval of the FEW people in their lives whose respect they crave the most. 

Does exposure always work? Of course not. But it's a hell of a lot better chance than just sitting back and waiting and hoping the affair falls apart, while she creates history with OM.

Once the OM is out of the picture, withdrawal comes, fog clears, and the WS often comes to her senses, realizes what she did, is ashamed, and - if the BS is still there and steady and strong and loving - can come to her husband and say 'I screwed up, how can we fix this?'

Your marriage can survive your wife's anger; it can't survive another person.


----------



## broken1

I definitely agree with not taking advice from too many people. Everyone means well but nobody knows for sure what's right in any situation. When my whole deal was first starting someone told me "everyone you talk to will have advice for you. But your best bet is to just do what YOU think is right." I had no idea how important that advice was at the time. There are times I have surely looked like a fool with all the inconsistencies of my actions. All the result of acting certain ways based on certain opinions.

Still not with you on the exposure thing... I TOTALLY understand wanting to rally family/friends to join the cause and speak against her. I've tried it. My wife's parents have probably been one of the KEY devastating factors in the decline of the last 3 months. They have enabled her. They bought her a house for crying out loud!! Her mom helped her find the right birth control so her affair would be a "safe" one! Does it get any sicker?!?! And all I ever get from them when I try to tell them how wrong it all is: "Broken, she's clearly done with your marriage and she's moving on. She seems happy and we don't see anything wrong with that. It would be best for you to move on as well." My point is... You, much like me, want to control the situation. You want to fix it. You want to control her by controlling the family into standing against her. But you're sabotaging your own cause! Don't you think your wife knows you're talking to these people trying to get them to speak against her? So even if they did how effective do you think that would be on her? Plus, what i've learned, is if you have to convince a friend or family member that something like this is wrong, they're NOT GOING TO GET IT. You're not wrong for feeling like you do. They probably all stood in agreement at your wedding. Supported your covenant. They probably call themselves believers. Therefore, I beleive, as you clearly do, they have an obligation to uphold the truth do whatever they can to help correct her path. But if they don't...? There's nothing you can do about it. Difficult to accept, I know. Let go... Let God.

Idolatry: 1. Worship of Idols; 2. Blind or excessive devotion to something.

Are you consumed by your circumstances? Has your wife been placed somewhere above God? Would you sin if it would bring your wife back right now? Do you think about her more than God or anything else.

I was studying Isaiah awhile back and somewhere toward the back (maybe chapter 64, 65...?) and really started pondering what can become an idol in our life that we might not even realize. Idols don't always have to be good things. The definition doesn't include anything about worship or devotion to something you love. Bad situations can also consume so much of us that they become idols as well. I'm guilty of it. I had placed my wife on a higher pedestal than God. I compromised my beliefs to try pleasing her. Ironically, when she left, the sadness and pain became the idol. It is also very consuming. My prayers have now turned from begging and pleading God to intervene and change her heart, to simply having His will with my family, protecting her and my children while they are not with me, and helping me to embrace this darkness as an opportunity to be the man I am called to be. I also try to spend time just talking to Him as though I'm just speaking my thoughts or innermost feelings. Then I try to sit in quietness and listen. See the shift in focus? Once you truly accept that you are not in control and re-focus as a single, Christian Father/Man (church leader)... the anxiety and desperation begin to fade. Your calling is to love God with all your heart mind and soul, and love your neighbor as yourself. And you in particular have been called to lead in ministry. How can all your heart/mind/soul be devoted to your calling if you're allowing your worldly circumstances to consume and distract you. Hmmm... well that actually sparks a whole new thought... Could it be that Satan is using this to manipulate you without you even knowing it? Because your wife has given her mind over, he has been able to, at least, distract you from your purpose. I'd say he's probably come closer to destrying you alltogether than you might want to admit. I know because I'M THERE TOO. Your wife was the easy but very strategic target. He knew if he could get her, hi might be able to destroy you, your daughter, church members... the list could go on. See how important it is for you to stay strong?

I'm just trying to encourage you Mark. I TOTALLY understand if you discontinue using this site. I've seen how overwhelming it can be to get so many different opinions. I have chosen to no longer write on my own threads but have found there is something fulfilling about trying to help others. Don't know if I've helped anyone yet... But I keep thinking to myself: If my wife were to pour her heart onto a site like this looking for answers, I hope the person on the other end would be giving her a message of hope, life, encouragment. That's the only reason I'm still here.

Good luck. God Bless.


----------



## broken1

turnera said:


> broken, how much reading have you done about exposing? You sound like you are viewing it as the WS does - as revenge.
> 
> A married man has a responsibility to protect his marriage and his wife from an interloper. And the chemical, mental change that a wife goes through (or an unfaithful husband) once an affair starts COMPLETELY, TEMPORARILY CHANGES that person. It's well documented that the cheater becomes akin to a drug addict - they LITERALLY crave the good feelings they get from the PEA chemicals coursing through their veins, every time they think of, let alone see, their affair partner. They do anything to keep it coming - lie, justify, change history, throw people under the bus, give up their money and jobs and familes.
> 
> They almost never quit it on their own.
> 
> And the longer it goes on, the more scorched earth there is to repair.
> 
> Thus it behooves the BS to STOP the affair in the best way possible. And psychologically speaking, the best way to get someone to quit what's bad for them is to realize that the bad is not worth it. Too much to lose - like the dismay, disgust, and disapproval of the FEW people in their lives whose respect they crave the most.
> 
> Does exposure always work? Of course not. But it's a hell of a lot better chance than just sitting back and waiting and hoping the affair falls apart, while she creates history with OM.
> 
> Once the OM is out of the picture, withdrawal comes, fog clears, and the WS often comes to her senses, realizes what she did, is ashamed, and - if the BS is still there and steady and strong and loving - can come to her husband and say 'I screwed up, how can we fix this?'
> 
> Your marriage can survive your wife's anger; it can't survive another person.


Don't totally disagree with you Turnera. But in marks case (and my own) his wife is fully aware that its not a secret. If she was acting like life was normal and having a secret affair on the side. Yes. I agree. Expose and wake up call! At this point she knows he knows and is not remorseful. And knowing he knows, we can assume she knows there are other people that are going to know. But for this situation, I would argue that an "intervention" type exposure is only going to fan the flame. Certainly telling the daughter is not right. A 7 year olds mind should NOT be burdened with such thoughts.

I could be wrong through Turnera. I don't claim to be an expert and have never really had any reason to read books about infidelity...  Never thought I'd have to.


----------



## turnera

He exposed back when she WAS keeping it a secret. It didn't work in his case because she comes from a family of cheaters and because the church threw him under the bus instead of doing what's right. 

He's not exposing now.


----------



## broken1

Also (I should probably re-read the thread before making assumptions) I believe the affair started after the separation. So her reasons for leaving are more complex than her "chemicals" or whatever. The affair is probably more of a coping mechanism or "exit" detachment strategy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

I completely disagree with not telling a 7 year old, who IS old enough to understand that her life is falling apart because a parent made a bad choice (to have a boyfriend) and not because SHE did something wrong. You are his/her LIFE, and everything they know depends on you and your actions and words; they watch you like a hawk; they learn from your actions; they learn to lie from your lies; they become you.

Read all the books, and you'll see over and over again that the VERY FIRST thing children do when parents split (and don't include them by telling them the truth) is BLAME THEMSELVES. And this becomes a lifelong self-defeating prophecy of claming themselves and seeking out self-destructive actions to fit in with 'what they deserve.'

The absolute best thing you can do with a child is tell him the age-appropriate truth so he feels at least safe in knowing that at least one parent will tell him the truth so he knows what his world really is.


----------



## broken1

turnera said:


> I completely disagree with not telling a 7 year old, who IS old enough to understand that her life is falling apart because a parent made a bad choice (to have a boyfriend) and not because SHE did something wrong. You are his/her LIFE, and everything they know depends on you and your actions and words; they watch you like a hawk; they learn from your actions; they learn to lie from your lies; they become you.
> 
> Read all the books, and you'll see over and over again that the VERY FIRST thing children do when parents split (and don't include them by telling them the truth) is BLAME THEMSELVES. And this becomes a lifelong self-defeating prophecy of claming themselves and seeking out self-destructive actions to fit in with 'what they deserve.'
> 
> The absolute best thing you can do with a child is tell him the age-appropriate truth so he feels at least safe in knowing that at least one parent will tell him the truth so he knows what his world really is.


Don't need to read a book T. I was that kid. Also glad I didn't know the whole truth till I was about 15.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

I was that kid, too, and knowing it would have saved my life.


----------



## turnera

It all depends on how it's revealed, of course. And in no way did I see Mark every disparage his child's mother.


----------



## 827Aug

turnera said:


> I completely disagree with not telling a 7 year old, who IS old enough to understand that her life is falling apart because a parent made a bad choice (to have a boyfriend) and not because SHE did something wrong. You are his/her LIFE, and everything they know depends on you and your actions and words; they watch you like a hawk; they learn from your actions; they learn to lie from your lies; they become you.
> 
> Read all the books, and you'll see over and over again that the VERY FIRST thing children do when parents split (and don't include them by telling them the truth) is BLAME THEMSELVES. And this becomes a lifelong self-defeating prophecy of claming themselves and seeking out self-destructive actions to fit in with 'what they deserve.'
> 
> The absolute best thing you can do with a child is tell him the age-appropriate truth so he feels at least safe in knowing that at least one parent will tell him the truth so he knows what his world really is.


:iagree: It is never correct to lie to a child.....unless you want them to grow up believing that lying is okay. It creates a vicious cycle. My MIL always lied to my FIL. It's no surprise my husband and his siblings learned this from their mother. And guess what? I married a compulsive liar. Lucky me!


----------



## ahhhmaaaan!

So you exposed... so what. You had to do what you thought was best. Obviously she didn't take to it quite well, but what cheater does. I believe exposure is the just one of the consequences these people have to endure for their atrocious behavior. Its not for them to decide if jilted spouse wants to tell or not. THEY ****ed up- now THEY got to bite the bullet of the ensuing fallout.


----------



## turnera

I believe he started out by saying she was hitting up on MULTIPLE men while still with him.


----------



## broken1

Wow... I never said lie to a child. I said a 7 year old mind is not ready for it. Truly the logistics don't matter turnera. I'm not sure why you seem to be wanting to argue. Its done. Nothing can change it. I'm trying to give spiritual counsel to a fellow christian. Not sure how you think you've taken this conversation in a productive direction. I'm stepping out of this one now. Good luck mark.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

I was doing the same, broken. Not sure how you think you did, either, since he DID already do it. It's not like he's getting a do over.


----------



## marksaysay

Thanks all. And broken, it began about 2 weeks before separation. I was still at home. Also, thanks everyone for all the input. You have all helped me in your own ways. At this point, I'm going to leave the site, after tonight, and wait and see what happens. Ive pledged to not talk about my wife or our marriage until either reconciliation begins or divorce takes place. 

God bless all
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Good luck!


----------



## marksaysay

Well, I guess I've changed my mind. 

Since the incident with OM and DS, there has been no more contact. Yesterday was RO hearing and judge said he would rule today. While wife and judge both basically admitted that I was no physical threat to wife, he did say I disturbed her peace by confronting her with the OM. I simply told him that since April, I'd had no contact with her. No phone calls. No emails. No texts. Nothing. The incident was not premeditated nor was I violent. It was just something that truly caught me off guard and since then there has been no contact. I also added that since she filed for the RO, she has invited me to a gathering for our daughter. He asked her, based on the ramifications of the RO, if thats what she really wanted. She said no. She just wanted me to leave her alone (as if I have been pestering her relentlessly). 

At this point, I'm not sure I care anymore about what happens. I have stood for the truth. My wife has lied and cheated and tried to manipulate and all sorts of things (I know it's common fog behavior). Right now, while I'm just worrying about me and trying to get my life in order, I still have the hope that i will have enough love left in my heart for her to help her through the difficult days that lie ahead of her due to her waywardness. She WILL fall. It may not be next week or next month or next year, but she will fall. She even lied to the judge yesterday. I didn't comment about it but just made the mental note. 

Its funny because nothing really bothers me much anymore. It doesn't bother me that I've been marked as the villain because I know I've tried to do nothing more than stand for the truth. It doesn't bother me that we may be divorced in another couple of months or so because I will be okay regardless of what happens. It doesn't bother me to have some financial struggles because God has sustained me and he's helping me to slowly get that under control. I've started helping my former baseball coach give hitting lessons in the evenings. It's something I can do to earn extra cash while at the same time do something I really and truly love. That's a win win situation. 

It's funny but I'm not even bother that someone else is with my wife. She's made that choice and I can't change that. One day she'll come to her senses and realize what she has done. But I take great consolation in the fact that they're not with my wife. He has someone who doesn't even remotely resemble my wife. When the OM came into her life, my wife disappeared. They have no idea what it feels like to be loved by my wife, hasnt ever looked into her eyes and seen her soul, hasn't known the woman who cared about others more than herself. He doesn't know my wife or has he ever met my wife, just someone who looks like her. 

Is it possible that that person can return? Yes! She might have some scratches and scars but it's possible. God will be the only one who canbring her back, though. If he wants me to be there when she returns, I will. If he doesn't, I won't.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Sounds like you're doing really well. I'm proud of you.


----------



## lordmayhem

marksaysay said:


> Is it possible that that person can return? Yes! She might have some scratches and scars but it's possible. God will be the only one who canbring her back, though. If he wants me to be there when she returns, I will. If he doesn't, I won't.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Just don't live your life pining away for her, ruining any chances of a fulfilling relationship with someone else, in the unrealistically faint hope that she will come back to you. I know a guy who did just that, he spurned quite a few potential relationships with women while he waits for his WW. To my knowledge, he is still waiting, and his daughter has already grown up. It's just so sad.


----------



## marksaysay

I won't.

I want to also add that I sent her a message asking to alter my parenting schedule. I have a car issue that can't be fixed until Saturday. I requested to just switch weekends as she has done in the past. She replied that she would not change it and that she will be keeping her until mediation (august 10th) and that I will not be getting her any more until then. She said if I want to contact her for any reason, which I hadn't been doing, I have to find another way because I no longer exist as far as she's concerned. 

She is just so foggy it's unreal. I'm tempted to take some cash from my IRA, get a lawyer (which neither of us have) and give her the run of her life. I'll be praying to see what direction I should go. 

And to top it off, today is her bday. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

You don't have a lawyer?! Get some help, man! She is NOT ALLOWED to keep your daughter from you!


----------



## marksaysay

Neither of us can afford it which is why we were ordered to mediation. I know she can't keep my daughter from me. This is the second time she has made a similar threat and both of them are documented in emails. Anyone know of something I can do myself or do I have to have a lawyer?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

I can't think of anything you can do without a lawyer except MAYBE go to the city's Children's Protective Services and tell them she refuses to give you access. If nothing else, they may be able to sick the city on her.


----------



## marksaysay

The funny thing about that is she is a case manager for the department of child services in the next county for the last 4 years. She should know better but the fog is terribly thick.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Numb-badger

I see a potential disciplinary on the horizon!
I'm sure you could use terms like:
Professional misconduct
Abuse of position
Abuse of power
Bringing the name of the service provider into disrepute
Personal conflict of interests
Acting contrary to an accepted code of conduct
And finally:
Dropkick through window

Sickens me when people use kids as pawns.


----------



## 827Aug

I really think you need an attorney. Look around in your area for free legal aid. If you can not find any way possible to get legal help, go to the clerk of court's office. Ask them how to file a motion to restore child custody. Do you already have a case number assigned by the court for your divorce proceedings? If so, it will be easier to file a motion and get on the court's calendar.


----------



## karole

Do you have your visitation agreement in writing? If so, take a copy of the order, along w/the email your wife sent you refusing to allow you visitation to your sheriff's department and have them go w/you to your wife's house to pick up your child.


----------



## lordmayhem

I'm sorry, but in the absence of a court order clearly designating child custody and visitation rights, there's basically nothing that marksaysay can do. The same goes for if marksaysay had the child. And a custody agreement, even if notarized by a lawyer, also doesn't mean anything. It has to be a court order signed by a judge. Yes, the WW knows what she's doing in this regard. Unfortunately, marksaysay has no choice but to lawyer up if he wants to see his child.


----------



## karole

That's why I asked if he had it in writing. Sometmes a temporary order is entered to schedule visitation/child support/alimony, etc. to serve until the final order is entered.


----------



## marksaysay

To answer the question, the provisional order outlines the visitation. It IS in writing. But I disagree that she knows what she's doing. She is definitely not acting like someone who works for the DCS and is familiar with the processes and laws. Trying to keep anchild from a parent doesn't go over well for her profession, going back to what a previous poster said. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lordmayhem

marksaysay said:


> To answer the question, the provisional order outlines the visitation. It IS in writing. But I disagree that she knows what she's doing. She is definitely not acting like someone who works for the DCS and is familiar with the processes and laws. Trying to keep anchild from a parent doesn't go over well for her profession, going back to what a previous poster said.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If that's the case and you have the provisional order signed by a judge, then you can call the cops to enforce the order.


----------



## turnera

Go online for your city and look up free legal aid. If you're in America, you have access to it. USE it.


----------



## morituri

Click on the link below my signature 'dadsdivorce.com: Lessons Learned - Before and During'.


----------



## 827Aug

lordmayhem said:


> If that's the case and you have the provisional order signed by a judge, then you can call the cops to enforce the order.


Doesn't he have to first notify the court, have a hearing, her be found in "contempt of court", THEN law enforcement can act? At least that's how things have worked in my situation. Perhaps my state laws are different. That's why mark really needs an attorney.


----------



## lordmayhem

827Aug said:


> Doesn't he have to first notify the court, have a hearing, her be found in "contempt of court", THEN law enforcement can act? At least that's how things have worked in my situation. Perhaps my state laws are different. That's why mark really needs an attorney.


You're right, it depends on the state. I know in my state, as long as there is a court order and one party is in violation of the court order, then law enforcement can enforce it. That's why every morning where I am, there's people doing the custody exchange right outside the police department headquarters.

A lot of times, when one party is a few minutes late bringing the child, usually the wife comes barging in to the lobby demanding the ex husband be arrested.


----------



## marksaysay

So I found a pro Bono organization and I will be filling out application and submitting. Also after the email from wife stating she would basically be doing a Plan B on me (I didn't respond), she has sent me 2 more emails this morning filled mostly with "fog babble", i.e. you've been mean to me (by saying she needed to quit her adulterous ways and exposing), I'm controlling, move on (I have not attempted any contact with her since April), and on and on. 

I don't really care about what she says anymore. I stopped caring about her words after getting a good understanding of the fog. I don't have any expectations as to whether or not things will change but it seems that lack of contact with me is eating at her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 827Aug

marksaysay said:


> So I found a pro Bono organization and I will be filling out application and submitting.


That's great news and the direction you should go. Although I have a divorce attorney, I've had to deal with a lot of legal issues outside of the divorce. And could not afford an attorney for those. It's been tough! A family member has been there for legal guidance, the clerk of court has been helpful, and the internet has a wealth of information. But, nothing is as good as having a competent attorney on your side.


----------



## karole

You can call the State Bar of your state and they can direct you to their legal aid division. Also check with your county clerk's office and ask them if there is a legal aid office in your county. There are some attorneys that will agree to let you pay their fees on a monthly or semi-monthly basis.


----------



## marksaysay

marksaysay said:


> Since the incident with OM and DS, there has been no more contact. Yesterday was RO hearing and judge said he would rule today. While wife and judge both basically admitted that I was no physical threat to wife, he did say I disturbed her peace by confronting her with the OM. I simply told him that since April, I'd had no contact with her. No phone calls. No emails. No texts. Nothing. The incident was not premeditated nor was I violent. It was just something that truly caught me off guard and since then there has been no contact. I also added that since she filed for the RO, she has invited me to a gathering for our daughter. He asked her, based on the ramifications of the RO, if thats what she really wanted. She said no. She just wanted me to leave her alone (as if I have been pestering her relentlessly).
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So I got the news that the RO was granted and it states that I can have no contact with her for 2 years. I'm pretty positive that's not what she wanted. She asked that I be ordered to not be able to come to her apartment or her job. I haven't done either in forever especially not her job because she works 30 minutes away (only have been there 3 times in 4 years). She just wanted added assurance that I couldn't know who she was with or what she was doing not realizing that I stopped caring a while ago. 

Since the hearing last week, she's left 4 or 5 messages and has sent me 4 emails. All have been erases or deleted. I guess I'm in a really dark plan b now. I believe she just wanted to control when and where I could see her and got more than she asked for because since I can't contact her, neither can she contact me. 

I actually thought I would be bothered by that outcome but I wasn't. I've really come to grips with the fact that God is in total control and what he allows is what's best for me. I continue keep myself busy and I actually feel pretty good.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 827Aug

I'm sorry mark. Are you at least getting to see your daughter now?


----------



## COGypsy

marksaysay said:


> So I got the news that the RO was granted and it states that I can have no contact with her for 2 years. I'm pretty positive that's not what she wanted. She asked that I be ordered to not be able to come to her apartment or her job. I haven't done either in forever especially not her job because she works 30 minutes away (only have been there 3 times in 4 years). She just wanted added assurance that I couldn't know who she was with or what she was doing not realizing that I stopped caring a while ago.
> 
> Since the hearing last week, she's left 4 or 5 messages and has sent me 4 emails. All have been erases or deleted. I guess I'm in a really dark plan b now. I believe she just wanted to control when and where I could see her and got more than she asked for because since I can't contact her, neither can she contact me.
> 
> I actually thought I would be bothered by that outcome but I wasn't. I've really come to grips with the fact that God is in total control and what he allows is what's best for me. I continue keep myself busy and I actually feel pretty good.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If there's an RO in place, she's most likely in violation by contacting you, often nullifying the whole thing. I would keep every one of those emails and messages as evidence of that. Even if you don't want to take action now to have the RO dismissed, two years is a very long time and it's easier to keep a record that you never use than it is to go back to a he said/she said about it when you've finally had enough of her games.


----------



## turnera

Agreed.


----------



## marksaysay

827Aug said:


> I'm sorry mark. Are you at least getting to see your daughter now?


Don't feel sorry for me. I'm not depressed, worried, bothered, or any other type of negative emotion you can think of. I'm really doing pretty good. If there is an area of concern, it is my daughter. We can't contact one another so the exchanges are going to have be worked out somehow. Since my wife has pretty much stopped going to church (our first exchange option), we'd been doing it at mcdonalds. That's not an option now. 

I had been calling daughter every day but I won't do that any more. She used to have a prepaid that was provided by a close family friend when I went plan b. She stopped paying when she realized WW was only using her (other ways than just the phone). I've been stopping in to see my daughter in the mornings on my way to work (at her summer program) so I have been seeing her. 

I deleted the voice message but I still have the emails.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## marksaysay

COGypsy said:


> If there's an RO in place, she's most likely in violation by contacting you, often nullifying the whole thing. I would keep every one of those emails and messages as evidence of that. Even if you don't want to take action now to have the RO dismissed, two years is a very long time and it's easier to keep a record that you never use than it is to go back to a he said/she said about it when you've finally had enough of her games.


The judge signed off on it the day of the hearing. Since I assume we were both notified at approximately same time (I got paperwork yesterday), her attempts to contact me prior probably wouldn't result in much other than a warning, I would guess. I will hang on to everything I get, though, from now on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lordmayhem

marksaysay said:


> So I got the news that the RO was granted and it states that I can have no contact with her for 2 years.


So in spite of all that, this judge still granted the RO? Are you serious? Thank goodness we dont have that in my state. We have whats called a Protection Order (PO) and its only good for 1 year, and like an RO, it can be contested in court. Then there is an appeal process.

Were you represented by a lawyer in this? Because you have child visitation and custody issues that you have to coordinate with her.


----------



## marksaysay

No. Neither of us were represented. The puzzling part was that she admitted that I was not a physical threat to her but that she just wanted me to leave her alone. I've pretty much been in plan b since late April (other than the incident with OM where no threats were made nor was there any violence). Judge simply said I disturbed her peace which is prohibited during divorce proceedings. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## marksaysay

Well, without going into great details, things are getting worse everyday. I'm not talking about emotionally but as certain circumstances are concerned. The funny or maybe the comforting thing about is I'm not really bothered by how bad my current circumstances are. I guess I just realize that no matter how bad things are for me, someone always has it worse. I also am confident, because of my faith, that God is taking these not so good experiences and using them to bring about good for me. I don't know when, where or how but I know it. 

I read a quote the other day that pretty much has become my motto. It said, "Setbacks pave the way for comebacks". 

That's an awesome way at looking at things. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

What's going on?


----------



## marksaysay

Don't really want to talk about. Just know it's not very good. But I'll be okay once this storm has passed. I'm really okay. Just going through this so that I can come out stronger in the end. Everything happens for a reason. Once this is all over, man will I have a story to tell.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## marksaysay

Don't really want to talk about. Just know it's not very good. But I'll be okay once this storm has passed. I'm really okay. Just going through this so that I can come out stronger in the end. Everything happens for a reason.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## marksaysay

So it's been quite a while so I thought I'd give you a brief update. It's important to know that I haven't seen nor spoke to my wife in a couple of months. 

I stopped to talk to my pastor/best friend today and he said he tried to come over to my apartment last night twice but wasn't sure he was at the right place. I wasn't home since I give hitting lessons in the evenings. He said he called my wife to make sure he had the right place and she started drilling him about what was wrong, was I okay, etc. He informed her it was nothing but that he just needed to get in touch with me for something. 

He says he got to the office this morning and promptly got a call from wife asking if he found me, if I was okay, etc. He again assured her that it wasn't anything serious and that if it was, since she was still my wife he would tell her. But since it wasn't, there was nothing to tell. So she goes on about how she has been worried about me, how she's heard I've been seen begging at a convenience store (not true), how I'm on drugs (not true), how im about to be homeless (not true), etc. He said he wasn't going to continue to discuss my life with her and ended the conversation. 

Later today, I get a message from my dad at work to call ASAP. When I did call, he said my wife called him and told him exactly what she'd told my pastor and I assured him I was fine. Yes, I have my own set of struggles but I am fine. He also talked to my pastor who told him the same thing. 

I just find it so odd that a women who doesn't love me or want to be with me now wants to know so much about what I'm doing and what's going on in my life. Right now, I'm living life the best I can for me and she doesn't need to know anything. Im doing okay with it being that way. I'm going to keep it that way.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

What kind of people would be giving her crap like that?


----------



## marksaysay

Who knows? I don't really care either. There's only one way for me to let her back in my life. She knows where I stand. Until then, I'm just gonna keep worrying about me. 

Also, we had another failed mediation attempt on Wednesday. My discussion with mediator didn't get past our daughter. I told him I wasn't going to agree to her being custodial parent and that I was going to get a lawyer and fight her for custody. Ive narrowed my choices down and I'm now searching for another job to pay for it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Sounds like a good plan.


----------



## disbelief

Sounds like No contact getting the best of her. I wish I knew it off hand but there's a web site out there that is pro dad in divorce support. Will post if I find it stay strong!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## marksaysay

Tunera and Disbelief, 

Thanks for your support and words throughout all of this. I have decided that it's time that I fight for my daughter with all I've got. It's gonna take some sacrificing on my part but that's the road i've decided to take. 

My ultimate goal is to try and get full custody of my daughter. Is it realistic to think I can? Maybe or maybe not but she doesn't deserve to be raised by a mother that has no moral compass, at least not right now. 

As far as the wife, yeah, I think NC is really getting to her but oh well. And yes, I do still love her. That won't change. But I know I can't make her change. Only God can do that. What I can do is try to get my daughter in an environment that is best for her.


----------



## Powerbane

Mark - keep the faith. You know that Gods plan for you, your wife and your daughter is only of his knowing and is meant to teach. Keep busy and have a plan and stick to it. Keep praying and improving yourself to be better everyday. 

Bless you man!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## marksaysay

Powerbane said:


> Mark - keep the faith. You know that Gods plan for you, your wife and your daughter is only of his knowing and is meant to teach. Keep busy and have a plan and stick to it. Keep praying and improving yourself to be better everyday.
> 
> Bless you man!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks, Powerbane. And to be honest with you, my faith is the only thing that has kept me. 

It almost seems crazy when I look back at the beginning and realize that its still not over yet. The encouraging part is knowing and recognizing how God has kept me throughout all of this and how I've really grown. I look back at all of the "small" miracles that God has performed for me and I can't help but feel so blessed. 

I know God does have a plan. Of that, I am sure. I may not know it but I know He has one that will be revealed in his time. In the meanwhile, I will continue on my path of self-improvement. I will continue to allow God to change me and those things within me that don't belong. There are still many but I have to remember I'm a work in progress and that He is not through with me yet. 

I still pray for my wife regularly. It's really all that I can do. The rest is in Gods hands. I pray for our daughter's protection from the damaging effects of all that has transpired. I pray that God just accomplish his purpose in us all. 

It's been a long road with still a stretch to go but I will make it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## disbelief

Faith, I keep bumping into more and more faith based stuff without seeking it I have always just ya know kinda had faith. Either way the basis is good morals and a decent set of rules for life. (No negative tone there) I am lucky in my sitch that as bad as being seperated is my Ds an I will not futher risk extra emotional harm to the kids since there is no time machildren. 
Stick to your guns Mark, document document and have proof of things that will help in court. If you have a buzz cut let it grow out image has an effect. A buddy of mine fighting for custody was given that bit by his lawyer.

Good luck stay true to yourself!

Dis
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## that_girl

Sometimes that 'fog' isn't a fog but reality.

It depends on the situation.

Was I in the fog years ago? Nope. I was tired of the loveless, sexless, abusive relationship that I was in for 3 years. I was in love and that "fog" was reality.


----------



## disbelief

It definitly depends on the situation. My marriage was not loveless or sexless. At the time of her A there was alot of extraordinary stress. But this is Marks thread.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## marksaysay

Well, today I went to the church where my wife and I had worshipped our entire relationship (she grew up there) since I'd been told she no longer attends. It was great to see those I hadn't seen in months and it was touching when some almost broke into tears when they saw me. Some actually did. I've missed them so dearly since I've been gone. 

It was a good experience but somewhat bittersweet. Many of the members spoke about how they have been praying for me and for that I was grateful. The thing that kept coming to my mind was that no one said they were praying for my wife or my daughter or my family. I know it doesn't mean they may not have been, but it would have been nice to just hear it once. I know some of you may say, "just worry about yourself" but, at this point, I have a daughter and I still have a wife, even though she's doing what she's doing. I actually even reminded some to whom I've particularly grown close to not to forget about my family. 

All in all, I enjoyed being there.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## disbelief

Good to hear it was a good experience.


----------



## Powerbane

Mark - gently remind or ask them to pray for your family as well. They very may well be praying for all 3 of you. As I said before, be unwavering I your prayers and continue to ask for guidance. Don't forget to stop and listen too. 

You too disbelief. I watch only a couple of you guys and pray for you and your family. Might mean too much but I know you guys will take help where you can get it. 

JP
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## marksaysay

I did, Powerbane, and they all understood. I won't stop praying. Actually, yesterday in my daily reading was the story of the persistent widow in Luke 18. No matter what, I will never stop praying. God is definitely in control.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## marksaysay

Well, today is our anniversary and I thought it would be a little harder on me but it's not so bad. I did get up and wish WW happy anniversary, just not to her personally. Maybe I really have reached true peace. Maybe I still expect something miraculous to happen. Maybe both. But GOD is in control.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## disbelief

Stay strong and positive Mark. Your not alone in this journey.
Dis.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## marksaysay

Staying strong and positive are really the only options for me. Being depressed or any other negative emotion will do nothing but cause unnecessary pain. It's gonna be alright. I'm gonna be alright. That's what I know and believe.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## disbelief

Yeah I am in that same boat. I have noticed a big change in myself since I found out about A Dr David Abbot and listened to his podcast positive thinking radio I believe his website with links is positivegraphics.com. Between that the NMMNG book, Hold onto your NUTS, Way To Superior Man, reading about NLP, body language, affair psychology, MLC and countless other things I have listened to or read including the Divorce care curriculum and discussions as well as a new mens discussion group where we all kinda hold each other accountable, I feel different I react different, I am changing me and no matter the final destination of my marriage I have already noticed it having a positive effect with my kids neighbors and friends so maybe this journey is like the Phoenix rising from the ashes. I was definitley at a mental and spiritual low point. Before dday and especially after. 
So I am sure you do the same and try to stick to the positive kicking out those negative thoughts. I know in my case we could reconcile but that is out of my hands. She has to choose to do so I will not try to persuade, punish, nor will I pursue her.
What will be will be.

Sorry so long of a response have a great day! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## marksaysay

Don't be sorry. It's encouraging to hear from others in similar situations. It seems we both have been on this journey for a while. My journey still has a way to go but what journey doesn't take time. It gets better day by day. There is still the occasional step backwards but that happens very infrequently at this point. 

Like you, I also know that we can recover from this but I don't hold that card. Indo often wonder if she would be too proud to admit her mistakes in order to rebuild. Again, that's not my call. As of right now, it has been pretty close to 3 months since I last spoke to her in any way. It feels really wierd but I don't think communication with her would help me right now. I'm out of her life (and she's out of mine) since that's what she wanted. That's what's best for me right now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Hoosier

> [I'm out of her life (and she's out of mine) since that's what she wanted. That's what's best for me right now.
> /QUOTE]
> 
> I struggle with this. But I do have a good sense when something is correct, I seem to just "know" what is right, and am usually correct. This statement above is how it is with myself and my stbxw, I miss her terribly, I would really like to talk with her every day, I wonder if she misses me at all? I wonder if she misses our marriage that is soon to end. I wonder all these things, but your quote is correct and I know it is. Time will tell if it ever changes, I am just trying to move forward so if it does or doesnt I will be ready.


----------



## marksaysay

Hoosier said:


> [I'm out of her life (and she's out of mine) since that's what she wanted. That's what's best for me right now.
> /QUOTE]
> 
> I struggle with this. But I do have a good sense when something is correct, I seem to just "know" what is right, and am usually correct. This statement above is how it is with myself and my stbxw, I miss her terribly, I would really like to talk with her every day, I wonder if she misses me at all? I wonder if she misses our marriage that is soon to end. I wonder all these things, but your quote is correct and I know it is. Time will tell if it ever changes, I am just trying to move forward so if it does or doesnt I will be ready.
> 
> 
> 
> I can't say I struggle as much as at the beginning but at times I do have similar thoughts. They are not the healthiest thoughts, I understand, but they do still come. At times, I get those queasy like stomach feelings or butterflies like at the very beginning, especially on days like today. I don't hurt but I do still love her deeply in spite of who she has become. But isn't that what REAL love is? Loving in spite of?
> 
> I do still try to stay busy but idle time happens and then what. It's those times when I try to submerge myself into Gods word and find that comfort and peace. Knowing that my problems and situation didn't catch Him by surprise really helps. He knew this was going to happen. He also knows how it will end up. I just have to keep trusting and believing that His purpose will be accomplished. In time, we shall all know.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
Click to expand...


----------



## turnera

Idle time...why are you not listening to our advice and finding NEW ways to spend your time?


----------



## marksaysay

The idle time comes after I've been to work, to my hitting instructor gig after work (usually 8:30 or 9:00 pm). It comes when I get home after a long day to an empty house. I do keep busy but idle time happens. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Someone on another forum was talking about CHOOSING to redirect your thoughts when they start straying into unpleasant things. It really is a choice, an active movement away from such thoughts. It's hard to work to pull your thoughts away from your 'comfort food' of feeling sorry for yourself, but you will be better for it in the long run.


----------



## marksaysay

So wife leaves message on my phone asking me to go into my IRA for $600 so that we can file bankruptcy together due to some financial struggles that have arisen. She says it will be cheaper to do it jointly and that if I dont, the backlash will cause her to move and make some drastic cuts. But more importantly, not doing so will probably force me to move back to Texas. She tells me I need to call her by Monday. I won't, especially since she has an RO against me, but doesn't she have some nerve? Waywards are really out of this world. The crazy and often confusing part is I choose to still love her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## disbelief

turnera said:


> Someone on another forum was talking about CHOOSING to redirect your thoughts when they start straying into unpleasant things. It really is a choice, an active movement away from such thoughts. It's hard to work to pull your thoughts away from your 'comfort food' of feeling sorry for yourself, but you will be better for it in the long run.


:iagree:
I end up doing the a series of Why am I thinking that? Does it really matter? Is it going to change anything? Can I move past this thought and not get stuck on it ? When You realize you can move past the thought things are better. 

Comedy channel
Positive art and reading etc.


----------



## disbelief

marksaysay said:


> So wife leaves message on my phone asking me to go into my IRA for $600 so that we can file bankruptcy together due to some financial struggles that have arisen. She says it will be cheaper to do it jointly and that if I dont, the backlash will cause her to move and make some drastic cuts. But more importantly, not doing so will probably force me to move back to Texas. She tells me I need to call her by Monday. I won't, especially since she has an RO against me, but doesn't she have some nerve? Waywards are really out of this world. The crazy and often confusing part is I choose to still love her.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Is that what she really needs or is it money for something else? If it's her financial crisis due to bein WS then is this her rock bottom to realize the consequences of her choices?

Good luck hang in there.


----------



## marksaysay

It is really a financial crisis because I'm affected by it as well. I just don't really care about it.


----------



## 827Aug

My estranged husband and I were going to file jointly for bankruptcy--to save money. However, after three appointments, my estranged husband just wouldn't turn in all of his financial information. After that my divorce attorney advised me to file alone. Since my estranged husband does nothing but lie, there's a good chance he may not be truthful on the bankruptcy paperwork. And that could get the bankruptcy dismissed and risk jail time. Do you think you can trust your wife to tell the truth and disclose everything on the paperwork?

I ended up not filing bankruptcy. Several attorneys felt it was more advantages for me not to. I'm following other strategies, so the creditors really aren't bothering me. Make sure you look at all options.


----------



## marksaysay

The truth is I don't want to file bankruptcy. She does and it would be her second one (2005). She is just trying to do this for her benefit and used the "you will have to go back to Texas if you don't" statement to force me to do it. I'll survive as I have for the past 11 months.


----------



## turnera

Why would you have to go back to Texas?


----------



## marksaysay

turnera said:


> Why would you have to go back to Texas?


Because she believes the financial burden would be too much for me to handle here by myself. I guess that's her way of trying to force me to do it for my benefit. The thing is she said it would be cheaper for us to do it together, but it wouldn't. To do it jointly is $600. To do it individually is $300.

Also, I'm not supposed to be contacting her and she is not suppose to be contacting me. What's up with that? I haven't talked to her since the beginning of June but she keeps calling, texting, emailing.


----------



## turnera

Funny how she doesn't want you, but she feels entitled to tell YOU where YOU should live.


----------



## marksaysay

turnera said:


> Funny how she doesn't want you, but she feels entitled to tell YOU where YOU should live.


To top it off, she told the pastor the same story about why she left church last Sunday and goes on this long list of excuses and lies that he brought to a halt. He told her he knew the truth and to prevent her from lying to him yet again, he told her what he knew. During her spiel, he tells her that I would never hurt her much less at church because I still love her. Her reply was, "he doesn't love me. He's just obsessed with me". 

Wow! She is just so full of herself she can't even see straight. I pray daily that God just be merciful to her. Pride always comes before the fall.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Created2Write

Hey Mark. I haven't read the whole thread, but I wanted to say that I'm praying for you and your wife. Just remember that God sees all and He knows the deepest parts of your heart and your wife's. I'll respond more once I've read the thread.


----------



## marksaysay

Created2Write said:


> Hey Mark. I haven't read the whole thread, but I wanted to say that I'm praying for you and your wife. Just remember that God sees all and He knows the deepest parts of your heart and your wife's. I'll respond more once I've read the thread.


Not sure if you want to read the whole thread. It's very, very, very, very long. 

And yes, I know that nothing gets by God and his omniscience. He's definitely got a plan that I am not aware of. But that's usually the way God likes it. It's a test of my faith and whether or not I'll trust him in spite of circumstances. I have and I will.


----------



## marksaysay

Please pray for me. I work at a school and I seem to be attracted to a case worker who comes to visit clients there. We've had several conversations, all of which are about her clients since I work with them, also. 

I still love my wife and really want to work things out with her, but we've been seperated now for 11 months. I'm not looking for another relationship and I haven't dated or anything. I just feel so conflicted because I've actually had thoughts about someone other than my wife. Please pray for me.


----------



## turnera

Done.

But, mark, don't you think God expects you to handle these things appropriately? I think if you took a show of hands in your family and community, it would be pretty much 100% wanting you to divorce and move on with your life. Maybe this is God's way of pushing you in that direction.


----------



## 827Aug

turnera said:


> Done.
> 
> But, mark, don't you think God expects you to handle these things appropriately? I think if you took a show of hands in your family and community, it would be pretty much 100% wanting you to divorce and move on with your life. Maybe this is God's way of pushing you in that direction.



That's what I'm thinking also. Perhaps God's plan is to give you something better. If you haven't already read _The Magnificent Obsession_ by Anne Graham Lotz you may find it helpful.


----------



## marksaysay

But the thing is she's married. I don't want put anyone else through what I've gone through. She and I just really started discussing her clients a couple of weeks ago and since then she seems to come more frequently. This week, she's been in everyday. It wasn't that way before. 

It all could very well be just something in my head because it's been so long. I don't know. But I do know her being married is not good for me either way if there is intent from her side or not. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Often people don't want to move on; they think they'll never find someone else, blah blah blah. So maybe He's showing you that you CAN have feelings for someone else, despite your protestations. And He put this married woman in your path to show you that, so you'll leave your wife behind (as she is toxic), but so that you won't just jump to the next woman who catches your fancy (this married woman), but will instead MENTALLY start getting yourself prepared to look again - hopefully not for another 6 months to a year.


----------



## marksaysay

OR it could be Satan's attempt to get me off the focus of what I've felt I've been let to do all along, faithfully and patiently wait for God to move in mine AND my wife's life.

I know it's an unpopular view and most would not do it nor recommend it but I believe it's best for me to simply wait on God. In my devotionals over that past few weeks and months, there have been many things God has showed me that seemed to confirm this. I won't go into them all but there have been a lot. 

One morning, the devotional was based on Isaiah 40:31, "they that wait on the Lord....". Another morning, it was Exodus 14:13, "Stand still, and see the salvation of the Lord". Yet another morning, it was from John 11:4, "this sickness shall not end in death..." which was from the story of Lazarus who was raised from the dead. Another day, it was titled "Asking for mountains", based on when Caleb did seek the easy road, but he sought out the difficult mountain. Reconciling with a wayward is will definitely be difficult, but it's a challenge that I'm prepared to take. 

Many of the scriptures have spoke to me specifically because of all that "I" tried to do to change the situation. It took me a while to understand that there is nothing that "I" can do or anyone else that can change my wife's spiritual condition. And just recently, I read a quote that pretty much summarized it all. "When you are at work, God rests. When you are at rest, God is at work." That's how I feel right now. I'm gonna just rest and let God bring about whatever he chooses in his time and in his own way.

I know I sound like someone in denial to many. I may even sound crazy for even having a desire to still be married to someone who has done what my wife is doing, but God is very capable of turning around my wayward wife. I also believe that he will. May not be tomorrow or next month. May not even be next year, but he will. 

I guess only time will tell if I'm just blindly optimistic or one living by faith.


----------



## turnera

What is your Biblical definition of a good wife?


----------



## marksaysay

One who loves God, follows his instruction and gives her whole heart to him. 

I know. You say that is not my wife right now and I would have to agree with you. But at one point in my life, I said I loved God but I didn't follow his instruction nor did he have my whole heart. It took God to change me. 

With that being said, I know that what God did for me and so many others is also possible and, in my opinion, likely at some point with her. Where is that point? Only God knows.

That's why I've decided to simply "stand still".


----------



## disbelief

After this past year and everything i have learned i would say to be still is good. 
You are seperated and not divorced therefore if you live up to your own high standards you would not pursue a relationship. To realize again that you can be attracted to other females is a sign of being human, approaching forgiveness and self recovery. When the time extends from hours and days to days weeks and months between triggers and bad memories and anger of her A then things are improving.
I attend the Divorcecare group and much of what i have learned to work through this comes from there. Almost everyone there and in the videos has been affected by infidelity. 
On new relationships the ongoing theme is take your time time. You are ready for a new relationship when you are not looking and satisfied as a single man. Take the opportunity to rediscover yourself and the truth about what you want in life. 
They also say on average it takes a person about 1 year for every 3-4 to heal from a marriage from the day the divorce is final.
It is supposedly two years for a marriage to be able to heal from DDay with no futher contact.

So I agre Be still. But be detatched establish boundaries.

Then when you make your decision you will be of sound mind and body with a clear head thinking logically.


----------



## turnera

Standing still is fine by me; as long as you don't move TOWARD her until she demonstrates what you describe.


----------



## disbelief

:iagree:


turnera said:


> Standing still is fine by me; as long as you don't move TOWARD her until she demonstrates what you describe.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

There definitely must be signifigant behavior changes coming from the WW. The old marriage will never be again it would be a new redefined relationship.


----------



## marksaysay

Only when she exhibits Godly remorse and repents can anything close to reconciliation begin. I know and understand this very well so I wait. She and I haven't talked in almost 4 months although she has attempted on a variety of occasions and for a variety of reasons. Right now, I'll just wait n
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Powerbane

Stay the course Mark. You know the married woman is just a temptation. You may not be strong enough to resist but you're not alone. Jesus is with all of us. 

Stay the course and make the right choice!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## marksaysay

Powerbane said:


> Stay the course Mark. You know the married woman is just a temptation. You may not be strong enough to resist but you're not alone. Jesus is with all of us.
> 
> Stay the course and make the right choice!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes! I know. I have been praying and I feel much better but I also know that these temptations aren't over so I will be on guard. Thanks all for the encouragement as I only have one option - keep my eyes on Christ. I can't worry about what God is or isn't doing on my wife's side of the mountain. My side of the mountain is my only concern. I just have to keep climbing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## disbelief

Day two of my own morning revalations this one fits your thread at this point better than mine. 
I think I have realized that despite my W's despicable behavior I have for her what apparently she does not yet and perhaps never will for me that Agape love. 

Now I seem to be at the same point you are as far as attraction goes. I am seeing in this world(during the day to day) many attractive interesting women. Now what this is doing for me is the realization that although my preference is to heal my marriage, my blinders are off and I can see again all the "fish in the sea". i believe this to be a sign of healing. This is what is natural when a man is not distressed over well say infidelity. You notice all the "beauty" around you.
This is a sign in my case of the "old me" as a close friend of mine reminded me how several years ago it was for a while a game between me and my W, when we were out, to point out certain features of a female. So even during my marriage before all this duress finding others attractive was normal. 

It is similar to being able to laugh again. 

There is no need to jump into bed or into a relationship, having casual conversations in public places is where you set your limits. Don't go for coffee or dinner just chat when passing. Don't exchange phone numbers and you will remain true to yourself.

Some how this must be part of the process to slowly rediscover these thing when coming from such a painful place vs just jumping in the sack with someone.

Rediscovery of self and a brighter day.


----------



## marksaysay

disbelief said:


> There is no need to jump into bed or into a relationship, having casual conversations in public places is where you set your limits. Don't go for coffee or dinner just chat when passing. Don't exchange phone numbers and you will remain true to yourself.
> 
> Rediscovery of self and a brighter day.


This is really where I struggle right now. I'm not really ready for a new relationship but it would be nice to simply have coffe or something, to have some conversation. It's been almost a year. I just can't help but think how for the last year or so, my wife has been having her fill of whatever. I know that's just my carnal nature but it is something I've thought about. 

As far as your statement about agape love, that is something that only comes from God. It is possible for her to feel that way about you, but her relationship with God has to change. I wouldn't totally count it out. At this point, I am trying to just continue to love my wife with that agape love since it's the only thing I can control. It is a love of the will meaning it's a choice you have to make. Right now, it's still my choice.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Do you have any male friends? Start there.


----------



## marksaysay

Yeah, I have a few but most don't live here. We talk on the phone occasionally but that's it. I have some acquaintances here but not many friends. The friends I do have are mostly from church and older (45 and up - I'm 35). As I have stated on a number of occasions, it's really difficult for me because those around my age are either wrapped up in their own families or driven by drinking, drugs, and club hopping or both. That's just not me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Right, I remember. Look, I think you're just going to have to bite the bullet and get outside your comfort zone. You NEED some friends, mark. Find a way to rearrange your time so you DO have some time to either volunteer somewhere other than your church, or else join some sort of club/organization for something you're interested in. I know it's hard to go into something like that by yourself if you're shy, but trust me - everyone is too busy thinking about themselves to give you a second glance when you walk in. And once you get involved and start talking and engaging, you'll be part of the group.


----------



## marksaysay

So yesterday I went back to our old church for 3rd time in 4 weeks and WW didn't show (surprise) so there was no issues. I had a good time as usual. Today, I practically did nothing but clean house and I spent a lot of time working on magic tricks (something I got sorta serious about during all of this) and I was actually okay with it all. There was no sorrow because of the loneliness or anything. I listened to a bunch of music and I was okay. 

I think I have hit the point where I still would like for my wife to wake up and work on our marriage but I'm okay with the fact that she may not. I do believe that one day it will happen but one day may be a long ways off. She is in fantasy world and believes that the grass is greener. She has abandoned me, our church, and it would really seem like God, as well. This pretty much means that she's in God's hands and he'll do what he sees is necessary. 

I do have a huge choice. I could continue to love her unconditionally or I could not. I could allow my love for her to be swept into the recesses of my heart to be reopened when the time comes or I could close it forever. The choice I make is unconditional love as God would have it and that chapter will never close. If she would repent and desire to return, good. If she doesn't, it'll be okay. God already knows the outcome.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

I choose to advise people to use logic.

Yes, you COULD choose to love her unconditionally. But I equate that to the crush I had in childhood for David McCallum (Ilya Kuryakin from Man From Uncle). I was SURE I would meet him one day. We were destined to be together. 

Until I realized we wouldn't.

Logic prevailed.


----------



## marksaysay

I understand your point of view but what I CHOOSE to do is based on what I have chosen to follow, namely the BIBLE. Ephesians 5:25 (NKJV) says,"Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her...". It has nothing to do with logic or what I think or what I feel. It's what the bible teaches. 

The word love in Greek is "agapao". It is the love of volition meaning you can choose or choose not to. It is the type of love Christ has for the church that is not based on performance or what is or isn't done. It's loving someone who doesn't deserve your love just like we as humans, with our sinfulness, don't deserve God's love. It's simply the choice. And since this is what God, through his word, tells me to do, then that's what I'm gonna do. Biblical teaching doesn't make sense to many who live by worldly standards or teaching but Christians are supposed to be different.

Most people operate with "phileo", the Greek word for "brotherly love". This means that when their expectations aren't met, when their significant other messes up, cheats, etc., then they stop loving. If you can stop loving someone, then it is not the type of love Christ commands us to have for one another, especially our spouses.


----------



## morituri

Love does not absolve us from facing the consequences of our actions.


----------



## turnera

So...if you make a mistake and marry a psychopath or a person with NPD or some other mental illness...you're just stuck? That's the only life you get?

That's not the God I believe in.


----------



## marksaysay

Morituri, could you expound on your statement?

Turnera, that's not my reasoning. It's what scripture teaches. The vows say for better or worse for a reason. And biblically speaking, death is the only thing that severs the marital bond regardless of the earthly status. Unconditional love is definitely hard but so is living by God's standards. I try to do the best I can and will continue to do so.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## marksaysay

Okay. This is somewhat of a rough day. After all the months of being undercover, word got back that wife is now being open about her new relationship on FB. And some of the responses were said to be negative due to her still being married. It doesn't bother me because she's with someone, but that she is now open about it with no shame. Again, I know it's out of my control, but it still hurts like he!!.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## morituri

marksaysay said:


> Morituri, could you expound on your statement?


God loves us unconditionally but that doesn't mean that He will not allow just punishment to come to us if we continue being sinful. The same with man or woman, you can love your wife unconditionally but that doesn't mean that she should not suffer the consequences i.e. divorce. of her sinful actions i.e. adultery.


----------



## marksaysay

morituri said:


> God loves us unconditionally but that doesn't mean that He will not allow just punishment to come to us if we continue being sinful. The same with man or woman, you can love your wife unconditionally but that doesn't mean that she should not suffer the consequences i.e. divorce. of her sinful actions i.e. adultery.


You may have it confused. She filed for divorce after the infidelity was discovered. I'm the one who seems to be suffering somewhat because I still choose to love her in spite of it all and it hurts.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## morituri

I am sorry if I assessed your situation incorrectly. Nevertheless, her adultery has proved that she is not a believer in Christ and that the divorce she is seeking MAY BE part of God's plan for you and thus a blessing in disguise.


----------



## southernmagnolia

marksaysay said:


> You may have it confused. She filed for divorce after the infidelity was discovered. I'm the one who seems to be suffering somewhat because I still choose to love her in spite of it all and it hurts.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Do you believe that you are supposed to suffer? Being a martyr is a good thing?


----------



## turnera

marksaysay said:


> You may have it confused. She filed for divorce after the infidelity was discovered. I'm the one who seems to be suffering somewhat because I still choose to love her in spite of it all and it hurts.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 Then this is all your choice and your own consequences. Do you think this makes you more godly, to suffer? After all, YOU didn't do anything wrong. So you must be a better person. And choosing not to let go of her is your...cross to bear? Sorry, but you've been coming back here with the exact same words, month after month after month after month, having done NOTHING since Spring to improve your life. I'm starting to think that you're enjoying the 'role' of betrayed husband too much.


----------



## marksaysay

For one, it's not an everyday event for me to be feeling like this. Two, I won't apologize or for bad about the fact that I still love my wife. In spite of what you or anyone else thinks or feels. Is it be aide of the unconditional love that I hurt sometimes? Yes! But it's no different than a parent with unconditional love for their drug addict son or daughter that hurts everytime they think about what that child was once and what they are now doing. Unconditional love will cause hurt and pain. 

Another thing, I spent ALL spring and summer giving hitting lessons every evening which helped take my mind off of my wife and do something I loved. Those lessons are now dying down so time seems to accumulate more easily now. I also preoccupied myself with learning my new craft of magic and working on an old craft of piano. BUT at the end of the day, no matter how much you attempt to avoid the fact that you love someone whom has made some very terrible choices, they can't be avoided. 

If I stopped caring or loving her, it would be really easy because I wouldn't give a damn. Unfortunately, that isn't the case. I still care and love her as much as the day we got married. That won't change. Am I'm not going to apologize for that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## southernmagnolia

I didn't read the whole thing, it's very longgggg. 

Why......are you choosing to continue to love this woman? My belief system does not believe that God wants us to choose things that are bad for ourselves. Continuing to love such a selfish woman is hurting you. What part of you thinks you deserve this continued pain? YOU are choosing to wallow in this pain and hiding behind verses that I think you are misguided in regards to what they mean. 

Why be a martyr? What are you getting out of that? Something inside of you must like this pain to continue, please think about that. 

Let her go, continue to pray for her but for pete's sake stop torturing yourself. You are not living, existing maybe but not living.


----------



## marksaysay

I guess my question is how can I misunderstand agape love. It does mean unconditional, right? God did say we are to have this type of love for our spouses, right? Scripture does teach that while legally you may be divorced but that spiritually, death alone severs the marital covenant, right?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

I would say that depends on which branch of Christianity you are from. Mine doesn't say that at all.

Which tells me that that particular belief is open to interpretation, since so many different Christian branches read it differently.


----------



## LovesHerMan

Yes, but Jesus did call out sinners from the Temple who loved money more than God, prostitutes from their trade, and Pharisees who loved the letter of the law more than the spirit of it. He did not tolerate people breaking spiritual laws or advocate unconditional love without consequences.


----------



## marksaysay

turnera said:


> I would say that depends on which branch of Christianity you are from. Mine doesn't say that at all.
> 
> Which tells me that that particular belief is open to interpretation, since so many different Christian branches read it differently.


It has nothing to do with denomination or the likes and everything to do with what the bible says. I could specifically reference ever point made with scriptures or passages of scripture but I won't. It's not necessary. If you are a believer of "the" bible, it does say exactly what I stated and in several places on most of those. 

Also, I'm still trying to understand what has been stated about unconditional love without consequences. What consequences can I give her? She has pursued sinful endeavors and "seems" so happy about it. I'm the one who hurts because of the love that remains. But I not only hurt for that. I hurt because I also know the outcome for those who abandon God, who allow pride to cloud their judgment, who essentially turn themselves into their own gods because they are in control. I understand the fate of those who reject Gods teaching or biblical counsel for that of the world. It's those things that also cause me to hurt because I would much rather not see her deal with God's punishment or wrath.

Yet, at the same time, I know and have accepted the fact that God, in his own timing, must chastise those whom belong to him. Do I believe she really is a Christian? Yes. I also believe that she's a prodigal who will come back to God, first and foremost, before there is any hope of reconciliation. She is definitely not living for God and he alone can change that. That, my friends, I have accepted. Understand that i quit trying to change my situation and circumstances many months ago since nothing I did worked. But what hurts is the love still remains. I could possibly get 'i don't give a crap' but I would be lying to myself. I'm not trying to stop her from doing what she wants but I do still care. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

*shrug*
Well, my church doesn't require us to use the words of 'the' Bible quite so literally. In fact, they invite us to question them, discuss them, and come to our own conclusions. General meaning, yes; literal translation, no.

My take on consequences is that, if you love her and want her to be better, going and staying dark IS helping her, because it's causing her to get her own needs met and, hopefully, coming to a point where she simply is no longer satisfied with this life. At THAT point, she may look back and see how you have acted throughout, and come to a point of contrition.


----------



## LovesHerMan

Mark:

Have you read Love Must Be Tough by James Dobson? 

Amazon.com: Love Must Be Tough: New Hope for Marriages in Crisis (9781414317458): James C. Dobson: Books

It provides a Christian view of handling wayward spouses and rebellious children. Family members are tough because we are always connected to them.


----------



## Lavender

This is a sad situation clearly. Most Men would not have your faith! I have witnessed a very similiar situation recently within my family. Its sad & very disturbing at times.

A marriage of 38 years went from I want a divorce ,Not in love with you, but still love you in a diffrent way etc. Upon the husband discovering another man existed by accident ( he stumbled upon his wife at a very dangerous time health wise) but ever sense then It was Ok you know now, so no need to hide & in a matter of days the husband was moved out the new guy moved in & then yes other public ventures like facebook..& walking around with the new person( even to the husbands new apartment) with the new guy became the norm! All of this has unfolded in the last 3 months, Im sure shock and disbelief are still lurking in the husband. He's been very sick and spent alot of time in the hospital recently, he's hurt & destroyed... but at the same time, He wont allow any negative comments, wont defend himself & has basically went into a state of depression that he deserves this, she is innocent in his eyes, he defends her & her actions???? Holding on to blind hope I guess. 

He is around her constantly ( now that he has fallen so sick) but he is around them both. Its hard for others around that love this couple to understand where he is coming from? He has anger and sadness ,but refuses to let those emotions guide him. Your faith and his Blind Love resemble each other. Love as God did everyone, but Move on & free yourself from those who mean you emotional harm!


----------



## marksaysay

Tunera, there is mo disagreeing that scripture uses both literal and figurative language. As one who studies the bible in the original languages of Greek and Hebrew, I'm also aware of the importance of immediate context as well as overall biblical teaching on any subject. Love, as God defines it and exemplifies it through Christ, is without condition. If there were conditions, if we could lose God's love due to some mistake or sin, we'd all be in bad shape. He loves the sinner but hates the sin. 

Also, I know that my staying dark and forcing her to stand on her own is helping her. Sometimes, though, I feel it's helping her, through her newfound sense of freedom, fall deeper and deeper into pride and sin. Months ago she was hiding her infidelity. Now she becoming more brazen with it as if it is not wrong, as if God doesn't know and see it, as if there will be no consequences. But that again is another of the things that hurts me so because I know that there will be consequences, whether sooner or later. And I know that God does see. It brings to mind specifically Psalm 50:21-22 which are words spoken to those who think their sins goes unnoticed. 

Lovesherman, I am familiar with that book and that method may have done wonders at the onset of this all but with so much water under the bridge, I've totally given up the notion that anything that I do will be to no avail. There are also several reasons why simply cutting the cord, so to speak, is difficult as there are still several unresolved marital assets and issues to resolve. Mediation hasn't gone anywhere. I could just sign off on the divorce, but I would do myself a disservice by doing so. Right now, Mark is done doing anything. Everything I tried for months was wrong and didn't work. God can only do what I can't, change her. 

Lavender, it is sad. It's sad that I still love this women. It's sad that she can't see the forest for the trees. It's sad that her family and friends are enabling her. It's sad that she seems to think that she's getting away from any consequence of the devastation she's caused. It's sad that our daughter has to suffer through all of this. You mention my faith. It is really the only thing I have. I appreciate your comment about my great faith, but it is only as great as my understanding and trust of God. It is only as great as he who is in me. 

I'm not so sure the two examples are that similar, though. I'm not angry. I have no contact with my wayward wife. We haven't spoke in almost 4 months. I don't see her ever. I don't go through the motions or follow her around like a lost puppy dog. I've come along way since this all started and days like this don't happen very often anymore, but they do still happen. I have moved on in many ways. I just can't stop caring for her and loving her. And because of that, the occasional day of sadness does come, much like the parent of a lost child. Everyday is probably not a bad day, but the days of thinking about where that child is or what that child is doing does happen.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

If she becomes more brazen, she will start attracting the kind of people who condone such acts. Kind of like falling into the kind of people who sell and use drugs - before long, you're living on the street and wearing burlap. Maybe that will help her hit bottom faster.


----------



## marksaysay

Who knows. I know she will fall sooner or later. As the old proverbs says, "pride comes before the fall". Please don't take me as being some sel-righteous maniac because I'm fully aware of my shortcomings and I'm working on all of them. Some are easy and some not so easy. I will just continue to pray that things work out according to Gods plan.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## marksaysay

Well, on Thursday, my MIL called the pastor asking about what he thought about me coming back to the church. He said there is nothing to think about because her daughter hadn't been in three months and he is as welcome as she is but she doesn't come. 

He said she then went on talking about all that I've done and he stopped her and told her that her daughter is the one who's wrong. Her daughter is the one who has never been honest with him since the beginning of the situation and that she's probably only telling her bits and pieces of the story also. She's the one that was unfaithful in her marriage. She's the one who is still being unfaithful because she's still married. She's the one who has blamed him for her drinking but she still drinks. She's the one that blamed him for her lack of church attendence at the beginning, but in the 3 months he was gone, she came maybe twice. He told her that I never have claimed to have been perfect but that she needs to stop looking at her daughter as the victim. 

He told her that other members of the church have seen her daughter with another man or men but she has claimed the seperation/divorce has nothing to do with another man. She talked about my exposure and how I put her business out there, even though it was to only family and a couple of close friends. He told her that he has kept his mouth shut as it related to the ordeal, but he had to speak up when someone was trying to paint me as the bad guy. 

He told her that even though I was absent for all those months, I still contributed financially to the church. He also brought up the claims of my wife that she couldn't contribute financially the way she wanted to the church because of me but in my absence she hasn't attended nor contributed in addition to stepping down from her position as church secretary. He also told her that if she (MIL) wanted to leave because of my return, then she should do what she thought necessary (she's been there her whole life) but he was never going to tell me that I shouldn't attend.

Whether or not that served to be reality check for her or not, it felt good to know that someone spoke up about it all. God still has a plan and of that I am sure.


----------



## turnera

Wow! Finally found his spine! I think you had a positive (shaming) influence on him, mark. Way to go.


----------



## marksaysay

turnera said:


> Wow! Finally found his spine! I think you had a positive (shaming) influence on him, mark. Way to go.


I don't know if really had as much to do with me as it did with his disgust in the picture they were trying to paint of me. Regardless of the motivation, he said what needed to be said.


----------



## marksaysay

Just thought I'd post a short little poem that has helped me greatly:

When through life's darkened maze I go
And troubles overwhelm my soul,
O grant me, Lord, your grace to know
That You are surely in control. 

Hopefully, it may help someone else, too.


----------



## marksaysay

Right now, I'm so mad I can't even see straight. I was in a parade this evening with the school I work for. I happen to see my wife, my daughter, and the OM as if they were a family. She was is just so open about it now. But what makes me mad is her allowing this man into my daughter's life and she is still married. My daughter is being corrupted even more and that makes me MAAADDDD!!!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## morituri

marksaysay said:


> Right now, I'm so mad I can't even see straight. I was in a parade this evening with the school I work for. I happen to see my wife, my daughter, and the OM as if they were a family. She was is just so open about it now. But what makes me mad is her allowing this man into my daughter's life and she is still married. My daughter is being corrupted even more and that makes me MAAADDDD!!!!!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I feel for you man but remember that God gave everyone one of us the freedom to choose and though this is far from what He would wanted from her, it is nevertheless her way of exercising that freedom.

If there is one consolation I can give you is this 'What she does with him, he can do to her and most probably will'. Why? because both of them have justified the unjustifiable and when the OM gets tired of your wife, he will dump her for another woman. Your wife will receive the same treatment from him, that you are receiving from her. Barring the possibility that you were a horrible husband and the OM a better human being than you, it is just a matter of time before their relationship self-destructs.


----------



## marksaysay

Was I a horrible husband? It depends on who you ask. I made a lot of mistakes, and that I will admit. I have never denied that. I've also cone to realize we both made a lot of mistakes. Do I deserve this? Well, the bible teaches me that I deserve much more than what I get because of my inherent sinfulness. So maybe I do deserve it. 

I also draw comfort from knowing God never pits on you more than you can bear. It almost seems that God has recommended me to Satan for his tempting, like Job, to see if I would lose my faith. Based on what I know about God, that is not even an option. I know God has a plan for me. I know that all this is for the purpose of preparing me for a greater work. I know that winter only lasts for a season and then comes spring. 

Can my marriage still be resurrected? Yes. Will I live if it doesn't? Yes. Do I know what the future holds? No. Can I change my circumstances? No. Does my daughter deserve a better model of living? Yes. Do I still love my wife? After tonight, I don't know if I can honestly say I do anymore....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## morituri

marksaysay said:


> Do I still love my wife? After tonight, I don't know if I can honestly say I do anymore....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Does God still loves us despite all our betrayals we have flaunted in front of Him? I think you know the answer to that. But despite God's love for us, does he not allow for us to face the consequences of our betrayal? I think you know the answer to this question as well. Now the question I pose to you is, are you going to continue to become a willing participant in a sinful one sided 'open marriage'?


----------



## marksaysay

I think I would be lying to myself to say that I don't still love my wife. My emotions were definitely pretty raw after seeing the OM with my daughter. I did good to not say anything. I just kept walking. 

If you believe I'm a willing participant in an "open marriage", then so be it. What I believe is I'm a man trying to live as best I can to what I've learned from Gods word. Hosea never divorced his wife in spite of her adultery. God never even totally walked away from Israel. In Isaiah 50:1, you'll see where he says this and that Israel was the one who walked away from him. In Jeremiah 3:14, god tells Israel that he is still their master (translated husband in many translations) even after their waywardness. He continues to love them and encourages them to leave their adulterous ways and return. 

Like Hosea and God, I'm simply allowing her the space she wanted to do what she chooses to do, waiting for the day she decides to return to God. They both waited for the chance to show the love, compassion, and forgiveness they still had. Only when she returns to God will her return to me be possible. If God and Hosea were willing participants to an open marriage, then I guess I am guilty of the same. Remember Gomer, hosea's wife came back. Some of the Jews did as well (Paul comes to mind).
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

I may be wrong, but I believe that, in some places, if you have a legal setup in order (separation or divorce proceedings), you at least have a chance at determining in whose presence she's allowed to bring your son.


----------



## marksaysay

It has never been formally discussed and obviously won't be prior to next hearing. I was so naive at the beginning at all of this. When the seperation started, it was to give her space (I know, big red flag). Then when it was discovered, it was supposed to have been a one time thing. Then it was "I'm not looking for anyone right now, I'm just doing this to pass the time while I'm by myself (in reference to her dating website profiles and no i didn't believe it). Then it was I will never bring any one around your daughter until all of this is over and it's serious. All of this was my fault for not having discussed it or brought it up at some point. Excuse me, but this is my first seperation/divorce and I WAS really green. Not anymore, though. 

In my research, I havent' found many places that actually think its a good thing to expose children to others prior to divorce being final. It really depends on the judge though.


----------



## marksaysay

Well, I will hopefully have the money for my lawyer in the next few days. I hope to have counsel before Monday's status hearing because I think it will send a clear message to my wife that I'm done playing games and that it's time to get to business for my daughter, for my future, for my well-being, and possibly for my family.

I told pastor about what I saw Saturday and he was as disgusted as me. He told me he was going to try to meet with our judge (they have a relationship and often go out to lunch) and ask hypothetically, without mentioning names, how to handle a situation like this. He told me to call him later.

No matter what his intel gives me, I'm going to move forward.


----------



## lordmayhem

marksaysay said:


> No matter what his intel gives me, I'm going to move forward.


Move forward with what? She has a current Restraining Order against you, so the judge decided you are a threat to her and her OM. Face it, you're not going to do anything except pine away for her while she rubs it in your face. Soon your daughter will be calling OM her daddy, while you sit back and cherry pick verses from scripture to justify to yourself you inaction. 

People have been giving you sound advice throughout your long thread and you REFUSE to accept any of it. Then you come here and basically whine about what your cheating wife is doing and how it upsets you and yet you still refuse to do anything. So I have to ask, why do you come here? Is it just to vent? You know your wife is an *unrepentant adulteress* who will be cast into the eternal lake of fire on judgement day. You can't save her. And sitting at home pining away for her and praying the Lord will change her heart isn't going to save her. Some people are just unrepentent, that's why the Lord created hell and the lake of fire for the unrepentant. Forgiveness isn't automatic, that's the message of the whole New Testament. You have to repent of your sins to get that forgiveness.

So I'm not going to give you advice because it's quite clear that it would fall on deaf ears. I'm just going to ask what are you moving forward with and what do you hope to get out of this forum?


----------



## marksaysay

lordmayhem said:


> Move forward with what? She has a current Restraining Order against you, so the judge decided you are a threat to her and her OM. Face it, you're not going to do anything except pine away for her while she rubs it in your face. Soon your daughter will be calling OM her daddy, while you sit back and cherry pick verses from scripture to justify to yourself you inaction.
> 
> People have been giving you sound advice throughout your long thread and you REFUSE to accept any of it. Then you come here and basically whine about what your cheating wife is doing and how it upsets you and yet you still refuse to do anything. So I have to ask, why do you come here? Is it just to vent? You know your wife is an *unrepentant adulteress* who will be cast into the eternal lake of fire on judgement day. You can't save her. And sitting at home pining away for her and praying the Lord will change her heart isn't going to save her. Some people are just unrepentent, that's why the Lord created hell and the lake of fire for the unrepentant. Forgiveness isn't automatic, that's the message of the whole New Testament. You have to repent of your sins to get that forgiveness.
> 
> So I'm not going to give you advice because it's quite clear that it would fall on deaf ears. I'm just going to ask what are you moving forward with and what do you hope to get out of this forum?


Actually, it's a Protective Order and the judge, in his own words just said I disturbed her peace with the NON-VIOLENT confrontation with the OM back in June. I don't even think it's the same guy, either. I didn't get a good look at him so I'm not sure. 

Anyway, even if you or the judge may feel I'm a threat, she doesn't. She has been trying to contact me since it was put in order about a variety of things not concerning our daughter which is why I'm going to ask to have it thrown out. 

Also, even if I was a threat to my wife, which I'm not, the order didn't prevent me from threatening the OM, even though I don't have a desire to (just thought I'd add that) because I don't have a problem with him. Nor am i a threat to my daughter whom I am determined to fight for.

BTW, I just got the money I need and the appointment with the attorney is set for Thursday. YEAH!!!


----------



## marksaysay

So I set my appointment with the lawyer yesterday. I have the money for the retainer and I'm starting to get ansy and nervous. I don't know why. Maybe it's because I know it's the right thing to do and I can't wait to get this phase of the process moving. IDK.


----------



## marksaysay

Update...

Pastor was told by our judge that what my wife is doing is normal and that the justice system can't control that. He also told him that if he father is concerned, he simply needs to build a case and fight it out in the court of law. I can't say I was surprised. 

It was ssomewhat discouraging but at the same time it validated the course of action I've decided to take.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

WHY is a judge telling a pastor ANYTHING?


----------



## lordmayhem

I also have to wonder why a pastor is tell him anything. Religious clergy are also supposed to have the same confidentiality rules like doctors and lawyers. The pastor isn't really supposed to be telling marksaysay anything about what his WW and in-laws are telling about him. That's why I have to wonder about the last few posts.


----------



## marksaysay

I need to add some clarity to my pastor's involvement. 

First of all, he has a relationship with most of the judges in our city because he has been helping people in legal trouble his entire tenure which spans 10 years. He's come to know them all.

Secondly, he is probably my best friend and has known my wife and I all but about a year of our marriage. Him and his wife are also my daughter's God-parents. He understands the spiritual aspects of my wife's waywardness and how her actions will impact our daughter. He has been very disappointed in her actions from the beginning but knows that he can't change her no more than I can. 

When I told him about WW allowing other men in my daughter's life, it bothered him greatly and he simply went to the judge with a hypothetical senario, mentioning no names or extensive details of our situation, wanting to see if there was anything that could be done.

He is HIGHLY concerned about my daughter's spiritual, emotional, and moral upbringing because he knows that my wife is not setting a good example for her and he doesn't want my daughter to be negatively impacted. He cares about OUR daughter and he just wanted to see for himself, first and foremost, but also help direct me, if he could.


----------



## marksaysay

So today I meet with the attorney and I'm nervous yet determined all at once. I just have to remember it's all about my daughter.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## marksaysay

So I had the meeting with the lawyer. I told him everything I knew and all the proof I have about her adulterous. He told me that there are no guarantees that I can pull my family back together which is a hope even though it's small. He said there are no guarantees that I will win my daughter (the biggest focus at this point). I simply told him I expected no guarantees but that I knew I couldn't win a fight I never chose to enter. Today, I signed up for a fight I was reluctant to enter but I'm comfortable with the decision.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

I'm proud of you. I hurt for you, but what you are doing is necessary.


----------



## marksaysay

Yeah, I think it was necessary as there are tons of things to be settled in addition to the issue with daughter. It wasn't something I wanted to do because I know it can get nasty but I have to for me and for my daughter.


----------



## marksaysay

So today my lawyer makes his first appearance at our status hearing. I'm kinda nervous but I know this is the path I must take. My wife doesn't know I have one nor do I think she thought I would or could get one. I think she'll be really surprised and probably angry since she petitioned the court for an "emergency hearing" (whatever that is) after she was told by mediator I would fight for daughter. 

Just keep me in your thoughts and prayers.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## sam83

marksaysay said:


> So today my lawyer makes his first appearance at our status hearing. I'm kinda nervous but I know this is the path I must take. My wife doesn't know I have one nor do I think she thought I would or could get one. I think she'll be really surprised and probably angry since she petitioned the court for an "emergency hearing" (whatever that is) after she was told by mediator I would fight for daughter.
> 
> Just keep me in your thoughts and prayers.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


now it's ur time man fight for ur daughter and for yourself and show no mercy to the cheater :smthumbup:


----------



## disbelief

Take that stand for your daughter do all the right things so it works out for you cover all the bases. Good luck.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## marksaysay

Yes, I'm going to fight but I don't plan on fighting dirty. I just want to do the right things, things necessary to help my cause. I'm not angry at my wife nor am I wanting to be vindictive. I am hurt by her actions and even hurt to have to do this to someone I still love. But I am also trying to do what's best for me and my daughter, though. It must be done. 

I didn't want to take this action but I know I must so it's okay. God is still in control.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## sam83

she was /is fighting dirty man forget the nice guy in u this time and protect yourself, fight for ur own daughter, move on and find a decent lady deserve ur love 

wish u luck


----------



## marksaysay

I didn't say that I WOULDN'T. I said I would do what would help my cause. I will do what is necessary as my lawyer (and God) directs me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## sam83

marksaysay said:


> I didn't say that I WOULDN'T. I said I would do what would help my cause. I will do what is necessary as my lawyer (and God) directs me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


best of luck man :lol::smthumbup:


----------



## marksaysay

I don't need luck. I need God!ray:ray:ray:


----------



## marksaysay

Well, here's the update on today's status hearing...(rather long)

It began rather interesting to see her mother and aunt there. Her mother has been her biggest supporter in spite of knowing what she's done. Her aunt (who's very nonconfrontational) has been non-committal and her presence was the biggest surprise because she also knows.

We were asked into the judges chamber where he wanted to know what was still on the table after our failed mediation. Wife said she didn't know. My lawyer stated everything including custody. My wife then gets mad about that and starts asking why. The judge, in a very agitated voice says anyone can fight for custody. She starts outlining how I haven't seen my daughter since June (not true and she knows it) and how she's tried several ways to contact me but I wouldn't respond.

The judge got extremely agitated by that statement since she asked for a protective order, got it granted, but yet admitted to repeatedly trying to contact me. He told her, "This is what you wanted. You didn't want him to contact you and now you're trying to contact him. The order says no contact via email, phone, text, or smoke signal (I so wanted to laugh)." He then tells her she would have to somehow communicate through a third party.

She then tells the judge she wants to utilize the services of a guardian ad litem (child advocate) because my residence was unfit. He replied that it wasn't unfit 10 minutes ago but he still agreed. She also requested that I be analyzed phsychologically (go figure). He stated was she gonna pay for it and she said no.

I have to tell you all the our judge has a known temper throughout the community so that doesn't really help either of us. My lawyer stated that the child advocate might really help because I might be able to tell about why I felt the way I do about custody but they would also probably find out about her boyfriend.

We moved to the courtroom to get things on the record and her mother and aunt came in. The judge ended up kicking them out because her mother was trying to coach her. He then basically yelled at my wife because she seemed to be unwilling to communicate with my lawyer.

He also got mad at her because she suggested that I give her my insurance information (I've been on her insurance for 5 years) but he told her that she couldn't do that because we are still married.

He did have a few words for me stating that I couldn't stop the divorce (I thought right, but God can if he wants). He stated that i was trying to drag things out but no matter what happens, we will get a divorce. 

He said that it seems that the two of us are simply trying to hurt one another now when he initially thought, way back in November, that this divorce would be smooth. I shook my head to his notion of me trying to hurt my wife and he asked why I did that. I just told him that I don't want to hurt my wife and that there are details that he's unaware of that cause me to be uncomfortable with my wife raising our daughter for the next 10 years. 

He did say that we would have to go back to mediation and that it would possibly be another 3-4 months before any thing will get resolved. My wife wasn't the least bit happy about that. Lawyer said he thinks she may be already trying to get married again. I said IDK but who knows. 

Anyways, that's the rather lengthy update.


----------



## turnera

I take it infidelity is not allowed to be considered in these things?


----------



## Powerbane

God Bless You Brother!

Good on you for sticking up for yourself and your daughter.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## marksaysay

turnera said:


> I take it infidelity is not allowed to be considered in these things?


It has not been discussed at length. The only mention of it was when she asked that a "gag order" be put in place to prevent me from telling our daughter. 

The judge knows, due to that conversation, but he doesn't know all the details as I have been hesitant to reveal them. Now, due to my custody battle, I don't know if I will have to expose with all the proof that I have, but I'm prepared to. 

My lawyer actually asked for the proof and I'm in the process of compiling it all to be passed along to him.


----------



## turnera

I would think that her poor moral choices would be the number ONE consideration for a judge. She made her choices, mark. It's not your place to hide her from her own consequences.


----------



## Shaggy

Mark, why are you playing softball when she isn't? Why are you diffusing the truth of the heinous choice she has made?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## marksaysay

June 2nd was the first time infidelity was mentioned. That was the provisional modification hearing. Since then, we had the protective order hearing and the failed mediation. It just doesn't seem there has been a right time for all the details to come out. Now it seems there will be no way to avoid it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## marksaysay

Had an interview today to help with the continued litigation in my divorce/custody case. I could start as soon as saturday. Im ready to do whatever I need to do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

{{{mark}}}


----------



## marksaysay

marksaysay said:


> Had an interview today to help with the continued litigation in my divorce/custody case. I could start as soon as saturday. Im ready to do whatever I need to do.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


They called me back about 30 minutes ago saying I can come to orientation on Saturday and start the following week. YEAH!!!


----------



## Houstondad

Fog sucks. The week leading up to the discovery of the affair my wife keep texting me with "I miss you" & "I love you" all the time. This was when she was out of town on business...with the OM. Two days after she returns and I bust her on the affair, she tells me she's not in love with me and has never said the "I love you" since then. I asked her if she was lying about "loving me" and she said no. Really? Either the fog totally enveloped her or she is an FN liar. I'll probably never know. But fog is powerful and evil!


----------



## marksaysay

Had my orientation today. I start my first shift a week from thursday. I'm so ready.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## marksaysay

marksaysay said:


> Had my orientation today. I start my first shift a week from thursday. I'm so ready.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Then I had a flat tire but it didn't bother me. I've trusted God throughout it all and I won't stop. 

Note to Satan:

You cannot win. God is with me and that's more than the whole world against me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Almostrecovered

mark, while it's nice that you have such a fervent faith to help your pain, I do hope you realize that you have to rely on yourself and the inner strength that you hold.


----------



## marksaysay

Almostrecovered said:


> mark, while it's nice that you have such a fervent faith to help your pain, I do hope you realize that you have to rely on yourself and the inner strength that you hold.


You're both right and wrong at the same time. While I do have inner strength, it is not my own strength. I draw strength from God and of that I am sure. While many will make proud statements that would imply their own self-sufficiency, I am not one of them. 

Knowing where I was months ago and where I am now, I recognize that the change was brought about when I changed my focus. I stopped looking at what was going on in my life and started focusing on God. That, my friend, is most certainly where my strength lies.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Powerbane

Nice way to put it Mark. 

God does give us inner strength but also provides us with a path to His endless strength. 

Never give up. Our trials are nothing to those of Job and not even close to the ultimate price paid by Jesus. 

Keep on moving! It's harder for old man Satan to hit a moving target!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## marksaysay

Thanks, powerbane. I have no intention of ever giving up because HE will never give up on me. 

On a different note, I just realized tomorrow is the anniversary of the ILYBNILWY speech and the day we separated. I never thought a year would pass but it has. And the thing is I'm not really sad about it, just kinda indifferent. Oh well...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

But you know what, mark? You have improved, moved forward, 1000-fold since then, since you came here. I know it's been painful but I can see a lot of growth, a lot of testing of your faith (and coming out on the side of God), and a lot of promise in you.


----------



## marksaysay

Thanks, Tunera. I'd like to think I've come a long. Actually I know I've come a long way. It has been a rollercoaster but I'm much better now, stronger now, confident that I will survive. It has taken words from many here, lots of prayer, lots of bible study, self-reflection.

I've realized that I can live without my wife since I've done so for the past year. I've realized that I can be happy with who I am (not that I wasn't before). I've realized how much fight I have in me as I've fought for my marriage and now for my daughter. I've realized that God must think I'm a man of great faith for him to allow so many burdens to come over course of this situation (you all really don't know half of all I've experienced). Most importantly, I've realized God is faithful. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Wow. As a member of a family who has endured a LOT, I am here, on your side. The one thing I have said over and over and over again is that God is testing us, and proving to us that we are worthy because we are prevailing over the hard stuff. Better things are ahead of us.


----------



## marksaysay

It doesn't seem to stop. I've had nothing but issues since I got my second job. 

The day after, my battery dies on my car. Saturday I got new battery, then I had a flat tire Saturday night. I got up to go to work this morning and had another flat. WOW! It's okay. I'll be okay.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shaggy

Hmm two flats and an nasty wife. Sure it isn't her OM knifing the tires?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## marksaysay

Shaggy said:


> Hmm two flats and an nasty wife. Sure it isn't her OM knifing the tires?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Nah...I had known the second tire has a slow leak for a couple of days but the first tire blew when I hit a pothole. Just something that happened...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## marksaysay

Well I called my wife's stepmom today to update her on what has been going on with me. She said wife called her dad last week to tell him I was fighting for custody. His reply was she needed to get herself together, leave this or these guys alone and stay her [email protected]@ at home (told those were his exact words). Keep in mind FIL wouldn't support me for obvious reasons when I brought it all to his attention at the beginning. Now he wants to tell her she needs to shape up when custody of our daughter is at stake. 

Wifes stepmom then drops a bomb on me. She says it wasn't to hurt me but she thought I should know that wife posted pics of her and OM on fb AND pics of our daughter doing gymnastics in her underwear. I asked her if she would send me the pics and she said she would have to think about it and that I should just call back tomorrow. I'm currently waiting on a family friend (and deacon at our church) who is still her Facebook friend to see if he can get me those pics. I called lawyer but he was unavailable. His paralegal said she thought I would have to have proof before things could be done. I'm praying I can get those pics. 

Stepmom also showed FIL the pics to prove his daughter didn't heed his words (I believe it's too late for him to try to be her father now). His response was one of extreme disappointment, she said. I tried to tell him and her mother about how far gone wife was but they chose to do nothing. Now it's getting worse. 

The crazy thing is I setup an account on cozy.com (to keep up with daughters schedule when I went dark) and passed along the username and password. She refused to use it saying our daughters life shouldn't be public. Now she does this. 

And to top it off, she a social worker. But she is a wayward...too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

That's so sad. At least your in-laws now understand what you've been dealing with. 

MIL is giving her daughter a day to take down the pictures. You'd better call EVERYONE you can think of to ask them to get those pictures for you NOW.


----------



## marksaysay

I am.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## marksaysay

I have the pic. And my daughter has on nothing but panties. No shorts. No tshirt. No gown. Just panties and I have the pic. Thank you lord!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

How old is she?


----------



## marksaysay

She's 8.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Oh wow. Yeah that's rape age. Bad stuff.


----------



## marksaysay

Having this info is somewhat bittersweet because I still love my wife and have never wanted to do anything to hurt her intentionally BUT I have to do what's best for my daughter right now. God will take care of my wife in his time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## marksaysay

Btw, the pic has already been forwarded to my lawyer.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## COGypsy

marksaysay said:


> Having this info is somewhat bittersweet because I still love my wife and have never wanted to do anything to hurt her intentionally BUT I have to do what's best for my daughter right now. God will take care of my wife in his time.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This isn't really hurting her intentionally--this is allowing the consequences of her actions to happen. Realistically, there are any number of people that should have done the same thing and probably much more. Given her work, she could be reported professionally and sanctioned either at her job or through the licensing board as well. This is a serious thing given your daughter's age. We're not talking about cutesy pictures of a baby in their diaper! Who knows too what her privacy settings are or any of that? She has you blocked, but what about the rest of the world, you know? 

Thankfully some of those people at least let you know what was going on and helped the right things to happen. Frankly, I'd go to a lot farther than just a custody issue with this. But be sure-- this isn't "hurting" her by any means....


----------



## marksaysay

I can't win!!!

Lawyer responded to the pic and all the info I sent about her adulterous and immoral activities negatively. He stated that since my wife's settings are set at private, the picture is not a big issue. Also, because the pic was highlighting something daughter was doing at the time, it wasn't for the purpose of exploitation. Said it would be better to just bring it to the GAL's attention.

He said that since our state is No-fault, the immoral/adulterous activities aren't usually a consideration.

Then it was stated that I should concentrate on the task of either getting custody or more time with my daughter. That's what the he!! i'm doing. 

I JUST CAN'T WIN!!!!


----------



## turnera

Aren't USUALLY a consideration. Unless you tell your lawyer to MAKE it one.

You're paying his bill, mark. Tell him what you want. And keep gathering proof.


----------



## marksaysay

turnera said:


> Aren't USUALLY a consideration. Unless you tell your lawyer to MAKE it one.
> 
> You're paying his bill, mark. Tell him what you want. And keep gathering proof.


Not so sure that will matter. The courts here don't care about morality. They don't care about what a parent is or isn't teaching their kids. They just care about which parent has the most amount of money to provide a comfortable life for the child. Not that that isn't a good thing, but I came up poverty level with a single mother and 5 other siblings. 

We didn't have a lot but we had what we needed. We didn't have name brand clothes or a lot of stuff, but it wasn't about money. I learned that life wasn't about material possessions. 

The only chance I've got is with the GAL and I'm not sure what I've got will matter that much but all I can do is try. 

Today has been a very disappointing day, but I guess I'll just have to deal with it just like all the rest.


----------



## turnera

He said 'usually.'

That means that sometimes, it IS. 

But it will NEVER be in your case if you don't bring it up.


----------



## marksaysay

Right now, my lawyer is trying to negotiate with my wife but she is making it very difficult. They even said she might even be shooting her own self in the foot. It's so sad the she has just gone crazy with her prideful action, her sense of entitlement, her feeling that she is in total control. She will learn one day God, and not her, is in control. One of the paralegals that spoke with her and is aware of much of the info and proof i gave lawyer was dumbfounded at her knowing that she's a social worker and actuall said "She is just lost". I told her to tell me something I didn't know. 

Im just so sad to see her line this but I have to remember, SHE IS A WAYWARD. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

mark, being wayward doesn't explain what she's doing. You're using that to tell yourself that if it weren't for that horrible pixie dust that turned her wayward, you could have her back.

It's her own moral code that is determining this, mark.


----------



## marksaysay

It does when she is eyeball deep in a thick fog.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

You really think she is some alien in your wife's body? You think she didn't justify her actions to herself, saying she deserves to be happy? What good does it to tell yourself that YOUR wife would never do this, it must be the pixie dust? Is it an ego thing?


----------



## marksaysay

Yes, I do! Having spent 10 yrs with my wife prior to all this, the woman I married is MIA. She is still there, just missing. I do believe she will one day return, but that will have to be the work of God and no one else. 

I'm not excusing my wife's actions or trying to discount them but it's a known fact that waywards live in a world of fantasy, have lost the ability to think rationally, and are only consumed with self. And no, my wife as I knew her, would not do these things but the person she has become will. What I don't believe is this person will remain permanently. I believe the fog will lift but what I don't know is if I will still have the desire to be her husband when it does. 

Isnt that the case in most situations like this? The betrayed spouse has a desire to try and rebuild for a time but eventually decides to move on leaving the wayward to wallow in their own filth. It happens all the time. The fog does lift whether it's a month or years down the road. Reality does set in. The question of the day, though, is will I be there when it does? 

I know many don't believe in the idea of unconditionally loving your spouse but I do. I'm not focusing on trying to change her, either, as I did months back. I realized I can't. I'm focusing on living my life and trying to do the best I can for my daughter. It doesn't bother me anymore, as it once did, knowing she's with someone else. He doesn't have my wife, just someone who looks like her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BillAlfonso

marksaysay said:


> Yes, I do! Having spent 10 yrs with my wife prior to all this, the woman I married is MIA. She is still there, just missing. I do believe she will one day return, but that will have to be the work of God and no one else.
> 
> I'm not excusing my wife's actions or trying to discount them but it's a known fact that waywards live in a world of fantasy, have lost the ability to think rationally, and are only consumed with self. And no, my wife as I knew her, would not do these things but the person she has become will. What I don't believe is this person will remain permanently. I believe the fog will lift but what I don't know is if I will still have the desire to be her husband when it does.
> 
> Isnt that the case in most situations like this? The betrayed spouse has a desire to try and rebuild for a time but eventually decides to move on leaving the wayward to wallow in their own filth. It happens all the time. The fog does lift whether it's a month or years down the road. Reality does set in. The question of the day, though, is will I be there when it does?
> 
> I know many don't believe in the idea of unconditionally loving your spouse but I do. I'm not focusing on trying to change her, either, as I did months back. I realized I can't. I'm focusing on living my life and trying to do the best I can for my daughter. It doesn't bother me anymore, as it once did, knowing she's with someone else. He doesn't have my wife, just someone who looks like her.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I definitely understand unconditional love and wanting to save your marriage so please don't take this as piling on but, at what point does the actions speak to who she is as a person? You keep saying that your wife wouldn't do this and you may be right, the woman you married wouldn't but people change. This may just be who you she is now and the woman you married is gone. I mean, from what I read about the photos, I'd be in prison right now if I were in your shoes that's how vile an act of having your 8 year old daughter around another man that's a willing participant in adultery is. I understand that you're a man of faith and I get the forgiveness aspect of it all but at what point do you let go and let God?


----------



## marksaysay

I have let go. I've let go of trying to change her. I've let go of the pain of being betrayed. I've let go the hurt of knowing shes with someone else. I've come to grips with only God being the one that can change her. I don't sit around pining over her. I hang out with the guys. I joined a new ministry at church. I just do me and what I can for my daughter. 

What I haven't let go of is the love that remains. It's still there and that probably won't change. I haven't let go of my acknowledging her as my wife. Legally and biblically speaking we are still married. The fact that she doesn't act like doesn't negate the fact that we are. I haven't let go of the hope that God can still turn things around. There may only bena tiny chance but with God anything is still possible. 

I know there is a high possibility that she won't ever change. I know that. I know that I have to live for me and my daughter, and I'm doing that. My wife can do what she wants because I can't control her. But she is still my wife. I know my view of this is unpopular to many but that doesn't bother me. I will continue to love her unconditionally. I will continue to be willing to forgive her and rebuild if/when the opportunity comes. I will continue to move forward with my life. I will also continue to believe that all things are possible as long God exists.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BillAlfonso

marksaysay said:


> I have let go. I've let go of trying to change her. I've let go of the pain of being betrayed. I've let go the hurt of knowing shes with someone else. I've come to grips with only God being the one that can change her. I don't sit around pining over her. I hang out with the guys. I joined a new ministry at church. I just do me and what I can for my daughter.
> 
> What I haven't let go of is the love that remains. It's still there and that probably won't change. I haven't let go of my acknowledging her as my wife. Legally and biblically speaking we are still married. The fact that she doesn't act like doesn't negate the fact that we are. I haven't let go of the hope that God can still turn things around. There may only bena tiny chance but with God anything is still possible.
> 
> I know there is a high possibility that she won't ever change. I know that. I know that I have to live for me and my daughter, and I'm doing that. My wife can do what she wants because I can't control her. But she is still my wife. I know my view of this is unpopular to many but that doesn't bother me. I will continue to love her unconditionally. I will continue to be willing to forgive her and rebuild if/when the opportunity comes. I will continue to move forward with my life. I will also continue to believe that all things are possible as long God exists.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't think that view is unpopular given the nature of this forum but I think it's just that everyone here is more concerned for your interests than hers and don't want to see you putting yourself through it for the sake of someone who less than deserving of it.


----------



## marksaysay

That's what unconditional love means - choosing to love someone even when they don't deserve it. That's what we do for our children and more importantly, that's what God does for us.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## marksaysay

So I got a call from MIL this morning. My cell was in bedroom so I didn't see it til later. It was kinda odd timing since yesterday my lawyer forced WW into giving me daughter this weekend. What does she have to say to me? All of a sudden, with my fight for my daughter she wants to talk. 

I exposed to her at the beginning and she turned a deaf ear. I tried to call her and even went to her house and she wouldn't answer the phone or her door. Now she wants to talk.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

She only wants to beg you to stop harassing her daughter and to let her daughter keep your child - stop fighting for custody.


----------



## marksaysay

That's what I was thinking. I'm making her daughters life he!!.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## marksaysay

Well, nothing new to really report other than the fact I started my second job. It's actually gonna be a welcomed change and some additional income (Yeah!). 

Just gotta keep movin....


----------



## marksaysay

MIL called pastor again asking him to tell me to leave the church so her daughter could return to the church where she grew up (she has a bogus protective order). He again said he would not. He told her if her daughter really wanted to be there, where was she the three months he (me) left the church. MIL said 3 of those weeks were spent with her father. Pastor and I know that to be a lie because I've been in contact with my wife's stepmom from theseveral beginning and she has only seen her once in the last year. Even if it were the truth, how does she account for the other 9 weeks.

Pastor also told me he disclosed to the judge which we were (members of his church) and judge told him he was p!ssed when he heard my wife say she's been trying to contact me (after he granted her protective order). He also says he recognized how my wife has been trying to use the system.

Regardless of what happens, its been a saga, to say the least.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Sounds promising.


----------



## marksaysay

I don't know if promising is the way I would describe it. A hot mess may be better. Its just so crazy that its funny.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Almostrecovered

at least you have a kick-ass pastor on your side!


----------



## karole

I can't believe your pastor or the judge - especially the judge - is discussing your case outside the church or the courtroom.


----------



## turnera

Hmmm, good point.


----------



## marksaysay

So I'm on my way to my 2nd job today and my ww passes by. The funny thing is I didn't really feel any emotion. I actually kinda felt sorry for her. I know I've come along way since this started. If she were to express remorse and a desire to reconcile tomorrow, I would still do it. But what is this lack of emotion?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Indy Nial

> But what is this lack of emotion?


Its called acceptance


----------



## marksaysay

You are probably right. I've accepted that I can't change her. I've accepted that our marriage may actually be over as hard as I've tried to fix it. I've accepted that I can't fix it by myself. I've accepted that I must live for me. There really isn't anything else to do. 

I'm dark and have been for quite a while and I plan to stay that way forever or until she wants to work on our marriagebuilders, which ever comes first.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Bartimaus

Mark I am new to this forum and have just found your thread and have read some of it but not all.
Mark I really think you are waiting and expecting God to save her, and bring her to conviction,sorrow,and remorse for her lies and cheating and make her come crying and repenting to the whole world.... She doesn't want that brother! And it doesn't look like God is going to strike her down and force her to do this neither. He seemingly only does that every millionth case or so.
Mark, I am a broken 57 year old half backslid preacher. Wife and I have been married over 38 years. The first 6 months of our marriage she cheated on me..my entire family knew of it. 
I forgave her,begged her back...THIS IS WHAT YOU ARE WANTING TO DO....and she has continued to cheat on me from time to time for all of our marriage. She comes from a cheating family, her mother and several of her sisters were cheats. I have phone recordings as proof.
Cheating and flirting with other men is in her blood,heart,and soul. Each time I would catch her up in being unfaithful we would argue and she would leave. I would beg her back and expect God to change her. She has let up on her unfaithfulness at times but always goes right back. Even when she has let up she has still had eyes for other men when we were out in public and these things torment you and never let you heal and gain trust again. She is an addicted cheater.
Much of my life has been a nightmare. 
My opinion is that you are on the same self-destructive path as I took by needing your woman. If you ever get your wife back I really expect you to live the blind fools life that I have. 
Sorry so blunt brother but maybe...just maybe God sent me to your thread to be able to tell you what a cheating wife can do to your life. I don't know but this I do know...get your divorce and find a new love and then you will understand what I am saying and not pick my words apart while justifing your own blind behavior.


----------



## turnera

marksaysay said:


> So I'm on my way to my 2nd job today and my ww passes by. The funny thing is I didn't really feel any emotion. I actually kinda felt sorry for her. I know I've come along way since this started. If she were to express remorse and a desire to reconcile tomorrow, I would still do it. But what is this lack of emotion?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 It means you are falling out of love with her. VERY common.


----------



## marksaysay

Bartimaus said:


> Mark I really think you are waiting and expecting God to save her, and bring her to conviction,sorrow,and remorse for her lies and cheating and make her come crying and repenting to the whole world.... She doesn't want that brother! And it doesn't look like God is going to strike her down and force her to do this neither.


It happens all the time. Many waywards do see the errors of their ways until life slaps them in the face, forces them to take an honest look at themself and the destruction they've caused. I've had it happen to me before, not with a wife, but an old girlfriend. After deciding to "move on", she came back wanting to try again. Unfortunately, I was done. The difference is she wasn't my wife, the mother of my child, the woman I vowed to love until death.



Bartimaus said:


> The first 6 months of our marriage she cheated on me..my entire family knew of it.
> I forgave her,begged her back...THIS IS WHAT YOU ARE WANTING TO DO....and she has continued to cheat on me from time to time for all of our marriage.


For one, there is no begging. I pleaded at the beginning prior to understand that adultery was involved, but that has been gone months ago. We have had one conversation since April. I haven't had any contact, outside of court proceedings, since June. I have left her to her own destructive behavior and I'm living my own life. I'm not begging her back. If she comes back, it will be because she wants to.



Bartimaus said:


> I would beg her back and expect God to change her. She has let up on her unfaithfulness at times but always goes right back. Even when she has let up she has still had eyes for other men when we were out in public and these things torment you and never let you heal and gain trust again. She is an addicted cheater.


So did you change anything when you found out your wife was cheating. When she came back, was she genuinely remorseful or did you just allow her to come back under any conditions. It has been stated that wayward spouses should be willing to be totally transparent. Was your wife that way? Did you help to create an atmosphere that was different prior to the infidelity? Did you spend more time with her? Did you start having more fun together? Did you learn about the differences in what men need and what women need? Did you make some personal changes? Or did you simply just let her come back. 



Bartimaus said:


> My opinion is that you are on the same self-destructive path as I took by needing your woman.


I don't NEED her. I've lived a year without her and I'm doing pretty good. I'm not living self-destructively. I go hang out with friends. I do my own thing. I work to jobs to support myself. I live my own life.



Bartimaus said:


> If you ever get your wife back I really expect you to live the blind fools life that I have.


Blind would be letting her come back without a willingness to do some "heavy lifting". Blind would be letting her come back without a desire to "show me" that she's change, i.e. transparency, extraordinary precautions, etc. I wouldn't be doing so blindly. I've learned to much over the past year to do that.



Bartimaus said:


> Sorry so blunt brother but maybe...just maybe God sent me to your thread to be able to tell you what a cheating wife can do to your life.


Actually, her cheating may have been the best thing to happen to me because it has caused me to make some much needed changes. It has caused me to understand and learn about what marriage is, what a husband is, what unconditional love is. It has caused me to have a greater appreciation for God's unconditional love knowing that in spite of my many mistakes over my life, he still loves me.



Bartimaus said:


> I don't know but this I do know...get your divorce and find a new love and then you will understand what I am saying and not pick my words apart while justifing your own blind behavior.


My friend, I am far from blind....


----------



## marksaysay

So last night, I did something I hadn't done since last December. I played pool for a pool league team. Id done it the last.6 years but quit when finances wouldn't allow me to continue. A friend called and said a sub was needed and asked if I could do it. Yes, I could and I still got it. Had a good time. 

Tonight, I'm going out to do some karaoke.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## morituri

:smthumbup:


----------



## turnera

'bout damm time.


----------



## lordmayhem

Yeah, it only took 50 pages before he had his epiphany.

Good luck. Stay strong and don't backslide on the progress you made. You may yet reach alpha status.


----------



## marksaysay

turnera said:


> 'bout damm time.


This really made me laugh! ROFLMAO
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Maybe you could barter something to earn money to play in that league. You most definitely need something like that about now.


----------



## marksaysay

I actually started another thread discussing more of what's been going on with me...http://talkaboutmarriage.com/going-through-divorce-separation/33703-moving.html

Check it out if you like.


----------



## marksaysay

lordmayhem said:


> Yeah, it only took 50 pages before he had his epiphany.


Thanks...:rofl::rofl:


----------



## marksaysay

Well,tonight I'm gonna start something else. I work with a Master Kung Fu instructor whom I helped during his marriage problems. He told me I could come at a reduced price (basically nothing) because he wanted show his gratitude for my help. 

I'm excited. I've always wanted to learn martial arts. Now I can.


----------



## lordmayhem

marksaysay said:


> Well,tonight I'm gonna start something else. I work with a Master Kung Fu instructor whom I helped during his marriage problems. He told me I could come at a reduced price (basically nothing) because he wanted show his gratitude for my help.
> 
> I'm excited. I've always wanted to learn martial arts. Now I can.


:smthumbup:

Good to see that you are starting to live life again and starting a positive activity.


----------



## marksaysay

Well, I found out that DS (ww) has filed for bankruptcy. Anyone have any experience with a BK during divorce? How will this, as well as the custody fight, impact the whole divorce process? I don't have my initial meeting with the GAL until 11/10 (ironically the anniversary of her filing divorce). 

I have sent these questions to my lawyer but I was just curious if anyone else gone through this while I await a response.


----------



## turnera

DS is your stbx?


----------



## marksaysay

Yes...disloyal spouse. I am just one who refuses to refer to her as "estranged" or "stbx". She still is my wife so that's what I'll call her until she isn't.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## marksaysay

marksaysay said:


> Well, I found out that DS (ww) has filed for bankruptcy. Anyone have any experience with a BK during divorce? How will this, as well as the custody fight, impact the whole divorce process? I don't have my initial meeting with the GAL until 11/10 (ironically the anniversary of her filing divorce).
> 
> I have sent these questions to my lawyer but I was just curious if anyone else gone through this while I await a response.


I would still love to hear any thoughts on the above. I was also thinking, most of the stuff on her credit is minor. The major things are on my credit due to her previous BK and poor money management. If she filed the BK, she still won't be free and clear like she thinks. I maybe wrong.

Well, on another note, I started my Kung Fu classes.tonight and I am beat. It was great, though. I will definitely be.going back again.

I'm doubly glad I went cause it helped take mind off first time not trick or treating with my daughter. Its okay. I'm gaining strength with every passing day.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## marksaysay

Well, I am really hurting today. No, it's not because of my ww or my marriage/divorce. It's because of the Kung Fu lessons. We did a lot of kicking last night and I'm feeling the affects. 

I'm actually starting to wonder, too, if I'm starting to reach the point of no return. I'm really enjoying my life right now. I like the fact that I've removed myself from my wayward's life and I'm concentrating on me. It feels good.

Deep down, I know that an honest attempt at reconciliation would be worth a try for my daughter's sake, but now I don't even know if I really want to. My thoughts on this could change as emotions do, but right now, I just don't know.


----------



## morituri

Love is a choice, unlike falling in love.


----------



## turnera

I took a kickboxing class once; gave it my all. I couldn't get out of bed for 2 days.


----------



## BillAlfonso

marksaysay said:


> Well, I am really hurting today. No, it's not because of my ww or my marriage/divorce. It's because of the Kung Fu lessons. We did a lot of kicking last night and I'm feeling the affects.



I have better kung fu than him then, who is your master?

Sorry, I'm a big fan of old school kung fu movies, I do that everytime.


----------



## marksaysay

I think I might have broke a toe at my Kung Fu class tonight. I may be limping around for a few days but I think I'll make it. If I can make it through the worst event I've ever had to go through like my ww and all the drama that comes with it, a toe can't stop me. It WON'T stop me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## marksaysay

So I was reminded of a verse in 1 Corinthians 13 that says "love never fails". This reminder was from a thread in the reconciliation stories section. It has prompted several thoughts. Obviously, this passage is talking about "agape" or "unconditional love " that many claim to not be possible in terms of their spouse. My understanding of this is that its the love of God and it is contrary to the love of the world and the love most people have for.their spouses. It is this type of love we are commanded to have for our wives/husbands regardless of their deserving it or not. I believe wholeheartedly the scriptures and the fact that it says "love (unconditional love) never fails".

So my thought are spurred by so many threads I've read and stories I've heard about LS's that are faced with the choice to reconcile with the cheating spouse but refuse with a variety of reasons like "I've moved on" or "I've become disconnected and don't feel that love for you anymore", etc. Its these feelings.that have at times, caused me to examine my love for my cheating spouse and if its really what it should be. 

Don't get me wrong. I have moved on. I live my own life. I have my own activities. I am content with the way things are but yet I still love my wife unconditionally. I don't know when, where, or even how I will ever be able to show this but I believe, one day, I will get that chance. I will get the chance to show her the Christ-like example of love. I believe that I will one day be able to prove what I really have in my heart. In my heart, there is no malice, hatred, bitterness. Just love. There is the disappointment that comes with having been betrayed like this but the love remains.

Is it because I have no respect for myself? Is it because I'm weak and have no backbone? Is it because I'm being a doormat? The answer to all those questions is NO. If so, the my example, Jesus, would be all of those also for accepting us back in spite of all of our offenses against him. 

Yes! Many would never allow their wayward spouse to return. Many feel they no longer love their spouse enough to ever attempt a reconciliation. Many just wouldn't do it. BUT I realized that I'm not like everyone else and nor.should any who claim Jesus as their Lord or God as their father. We are called to be different than those in the world. To the world, this all may not make sense. I don't care what the world thinks. 

I believe God's word and it says "love never fails".
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

I can relate to that. I'm one of the most forgiving people in the world - when someone does something, I strive to find the reason for it, rather than just hate them. 

That said, just taking back a cheater without ensuring they have a new outlook is just dumb.


----------



## marksaysay

I didn't say I would "just take her back". I've learned too much over the last year to do that under any circumstances. Continuing with the example of Christ, he forgives and reconciles with those who return to him broken, expressing "godly repentance", and willing to do the things necessary to create any lost intimacy. That is what it will take.

I've learned too much to not set boundaries. I've learned too much to not expect change on her part as she would expect from me. I've learned too much to do that. 

A few posters I've seen have done this without any expectation of change or restitution. And they end up having their spouse do the same things over and over again. I've learned too much for that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Oh, I wasn't talking about you, mark. I just meant that any BS should not just do that. I don't think God wants us to just forgive everyone and let us become a patsy. Forgiveness in that context is not what He wants, I think.


----------



## marksaysay

turnera said:


> Oh, I wasn't talking about you, mark. I just meant that any BS should not just do that. I don't think God wants us to just forgive everyone and let us become a patsy. Forgiveness in that context is not what He wants, I think.


Yeah, I see it on this forum often. It is never a good choice to accept a cheating spouse back without true remorse. A lot of the times its "I'm sorry I hurt you" and that is not remorse. "I'm sorry I cheated. I'm sorry chose to be selfish. I'm sorry I wanted to run from my problems instead of addressing them". Those statements take responsibility.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## marksaysay

So I was wondering how long it would take and it finally happened today. My second job is the place I worked when I got married 11 yrs ago so there are many there who know my wife and I well. After a month, one of them finally came and began asking about my ww. I didn't just come out and say she was cheating but I believe she got the message after a couple of questions and a lack of response on my part.

She asked if we were divorced and i told her no. She got a somewhat puzzled look on her face, maybe even a sad look and said, "you just seem so positive". I just told her positive is the only way I can be.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## marksaysay

Well, I thought I would say goodbye to all who have followed my thread. I can't stay on here and NOT think about my wife. Goodbye.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MrQuatto

Mark, best of luck to you and i hope you will drop in and update us on how your doing from time to time.

Good Luck!

Q~


----------



## turnera

Good luck, Mark. I know you'll be fine.


----------



## lordmayhem

Don't spend the rest of your life pining away for her in the vain hope that she'll come back to you. Life is too short for that. I've seen this happen.


----------



## turnera

And please feel free to come back if you're ever having a bad day, for some support!


----------



## marksaysay

I said I wouldn't return but I guess I own all who have followed this last update:

I met with the GAL today, whom had already spoken with wife (and told her about her boyfriend) and had interviewed daughter (who admitted to knowing about mommy's boyfriend). She said daughter seems very healthy and unaffected by all of this. She stated she saw no reason to give me.custody and take her out of ww home. I showed her the fb pic (with daughter only in panties) and she said she wasn't bothered by it and that it wasn't much different than a bathing suit minus the top.

I said all of that to say the only fight left fighting is over before it really began and I have nothing left to fight for. The reasons to fight (first for my marriage and then for my daughter) are all gone. And I don't.think there is any more fight in me left. I put up a.valiant effort but there are fights you just can't win.

Afterwards, I told my lawyer to just speed the divorce process along. I won't put up a fight for anything at mediation. Our house is already being foreclosed. Her BK is taking care of.her debt. Once I finish paying of lawyer, the costs of GAL and mediation, I will file a BK myself and just start fresh. I'm not gonna fight her over my car she was supposed have given back to me in march. She went and refinanced it without my consent and now.she can.just keep it. It'll soon be over and a new chapter will start.

The GAL did tell me to petition to have the PO thrown out since judge knows that ww violated it repeatedly (she told him at status hearing and he was furious). I told lawyer to do so but that NC would continue perpetually. A third party will be the way we communicate from here on out (its been that way since June). If I can't be what I vowed to be, her husband, lover, and friend, then I will be none of them. I will continue to do what I can for and with my daughter, but my ww will no longer be a part of my life (that's what she wanted anyways, isn't it).

I would like to also add, specifically for lordmayhem, I'm nit pining away for her. NC has been going on for a while, and if you read my thread titled "moving on" in the divorcing section, you'll see that I keep myself quite busy these days, doing things for me. 

Inspire of it all, I have no hatred, malice, or anything for my wife. I hate what's she's done to me, our family, and even to herself. But I still love her and I always will. Some may say that I'm crazy. But I don't care really about what others think on that subject. The love I have for her is only possible because of God. Divorce will not make me.stop loving her. Its a choice and one that I make WITH ABSOLUTELY NO REGRETS.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## morituri

Your forgiving heart speaks volumes about the person your are. I have no doubt the All Mighty will bless you.


----------



## turnera

{{{mark}}}

Stake out a better life for yourself, mark. You deserve it.


----------



## lordmayhem

marksaysay said:


> I would like to also add, specifically for lordmayhem, I'm nit pining away for her. NC has been going on for a while, and if you read my thread titled "moving on" in the divorcing section, you'll see that I keep myself quite busy these days, doing things for me.


It's great that you're moving on, really it is. However, you were forced into NC by your WW filing a Protection Order on you and moving in with OM, so this wasn't voluntary for you. Far be it for me to interpret His Will, but I can't help but wonder if there was a little divine intervention going on, perhaps giving you a hint that she isn't meant for you, that there may be someone in the future that will be right for you to spend the rest of your life with. Who knows? The Lord works in mysterious ways.


----------



## marksaysay

She didn't move in with om (by the way, the man I saw her and daughter with in September is not the same guy). Both live in adjacent state an hour away. Plus I had already been dark, just not completely. The incident that resulted in PO was 1st time I'd seen or talked to her in 3 months.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lordmayhem

marksaysay said:


> She didn't move in with om (by the way, the man I saw her and daughter with in September is not the same guy). Both live in adjacent state an hour away. Plus I had already been dark, just not completely. The incident that resulted in PO was 1st time I'd seen or talked to her in 3 months.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My apologies, then it's OM#2. Maybe you got a hint that this woman isnt meant for you and this trial was meant to make you a better man/husband for the woman that you will eventually spend the rest of your life with. I'm just speculating. The Lord works in mysterious ways.


----------



## marksaysay

lordmayhem said:


> My apologies, then it's OM#2. Maybe you got a hint that this woman isnt meant for you and this trial was meant to make you a better man/husband for the woman that you will eventually spend the rest of your life with. I'm just speculating. The Lord works in mysterious ways.


Meant for me? Only God knows. Through the help of my pastor, I have realized that, even though I fought for my marriage, my family, my daughter, it has never really been mine to fight. It was recognized by him, as well as my self, that my wife is now a "spiritual pow" and there's no resources under my control that can do anything about that. That task belongs to God. So now I'm moving on. 

If God brings us back together, that's good. If he doesn't, that's good too. Its ALL under his control.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## marksaysay

So today, I get an email from lawyer about PO modification allowing ww and me to communicate via email. She said ww and I need to communicate. I tried to communicate directly with wife and now third party communication is all I want. I want to stay totally dark. Wife doesn't want to involve anyone else, says lawyer.
I almost laughed at that statement. It really made me kinda mad. No, it really made me mad. All of this about what she wants. She wanted another man or men. She wanted divorce. She wanted to be free. She wanted to lie and cheat at the expense of a loving, yet flawed husband and family. She wanted no financial burdens left by the marriage. All I want is to never have any direct contact with her again.

It doesn't surprise me that she's doing this. It just bothers me that the "system" seems to.be forcing me back into contact. They question that what I'm doing is best for our daughter. It is best that daughter has atleast 1 parent with sanity. Staying in NC and not dealing with ww drama has helped me get there and it will help me.stay there. I will reiterate to my lawyer what I want and see where it goes.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Oregon38

marksaysay said:


> So today, I get an email from lawyer about PO modification allowing ww and me to communicate via email. She said ww and I need to communicate. I tried to communicate directly with wife and now third party communication is all I want. I want to stay totally dark. Wife doesn't want to involve anyone else, says lawyer.
> I almost laughed at that statement. It really made me kinda mad. No, it really made me mad. *All of this about what she wants. She wanted another man or men. She wanted divorce. She wanted to be free. She wanted to lie and cheat at the expense of a loving, yet flawed husband and family. She wanted no financial burdens left by the marriage. All I want is to never have any direct contact with her again.* _same here
> _
> It doesn't surprise me that she's doing this. It just bothers me that the "system" seems to.be forcing me back into contact. They question that what I'm doing is best for our daughter. It is best that daughter has atleast 1 parent with sanity. Staying in NC and not dealing with ww drama has helped me get there and it will help me.stay there. I will reiterate to my lawyer what I want and see where it goes.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I hear ya, Mark. My ex wife got me into some trouble in April which resulted in a no contact order. Even though it came with the price of not contacting or seeing my daughter it was a blessing in disguise. The major stressor "my ex wife" was eliminated which gave me my sanity back. I finally realized that she was the reason why I went insane, ended up in hospitals and trying to kill myself. Her emotional and mental abuse of almost 17 years got me there. 

Last week I was forced to see her again after 7 months due to a mediation session for a parenting plan. I was shocked, she got so old, guess all the guilt is already eating her up inside. I actually wanted to be in two separate rooms but she insisted on being in one, saying she would postpone the meeting until I'm ready to be in the same room with her. WTF

It looks like our ex wifes could have had it all but chose to seek instant gratification instead of working on the marriage and themselves. I strongly believe that my cheating ex wife is the one with the real issues and will continue wandering in darkness until she finally addresses them. 

All we can do for our daughters is to be the best dads we can possibly be. They didn't choose this path of life, it was chosen by our selfish ex wifes without asking them. I pray daily that my daughter will not suffer any permanent emotional damage down the road, so that she at least can have a better life. I will include your daughter too in my prayers, Mark.

In the end we will be the winners. Even though it was by force, we got more insight about ourselves and can use the positive changes in future relationships. Our ex wifes, on the other hand, will still keep on searching for something they actually already had but couldn't see. The affair drug will eventually wear off and reality will set in. At least we won't be there when that happens.


----------



## turnera

The law can't tell you HOW to communicate with her. If she emails you, just reply 'ok.' If she calls you, hand the phone to your child; you answered the phone. 

Are you fighting for equal time with your daughter?


----------



## marksaysay

Yes, but they tell me its unlikely when we can't communicate and compromise. The thing is, I've never been unwilling to communicate. I just don't want direct communication with her in any form. Dark. Real dark is what I want.

I don't want email from her because that opens the door to her disrespect, blameshifting, info I don't want to know about, etc. All of those things will do nothing for my personal recovery but harm.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## morituri

Have you considered using a VAR (voice activated recorder) to record all talks with your ex-wife? 

If you inform her that every interaction you have with her will be recorded - including the warning itself - and that by continuing the conversation, she is acknowledging and consenting to being recorded, then you have a better chance of having her bite her tongue for if she doesn't, then the recording could be used as legal evidence of her bad parental behavior in further custody matters.


----------



## turnera

Great point.


----------



## Oregon38

marksaysay said:


> Yes, but they tell me its unlikely when we can't communicate and compromise. The thing is, I've never been unwilling to communicate. I just don't want direct communication with her in any form. Dark. Real dark is what I want.
> 
> I don't want email from her because that opens the door to her disrespect, blameshifting, info I don't want to know about, etc. All of those things will do nothing for my personal recovery but harm.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I completely understand all of this, Mark. Sometimes I feel like a schizophrenic looking for something bad around the corner when she opens her mouth. I want never ever again to be in one room together with just her, only with a third party. Constructive communication in whatever form is a matter of respect and that's something my ex wife does not deserve because she disrespected me all the way. 

The point is, the trust is gone and there is no point of communicating about anything but our daughter. That lack of trust makes it really difficult for me sometimes because I am forced to trust her with the well being of your child.


----------



## marksaysay

My lawyer told me I was trying to micromanage the divorce after an email I sent asking them to push for the third party communication or staying dark. They said the GAL suggested email only communication and to be copied.on them all. I'm think I'm going to utilize my other email address and have an IM monitor it anyhow.

They trust the GAL's advice, given her experience and that they would follow all her suggestions. I really didn't want it amended. I wanted it thrown out. If I don't accept the amendment, it will stay that way til 6/2013.

They told me I could settle out of court now (let her keep my car, not force her to share my financial debt from marriage), or go to mediation with another $600-800 in costs. If we have to go to trial, its another $2500 to them. I think I should just throw in the white flag because it seems everything is going against me. 

I really don't want to amend the PO. I just want to be able to stay dark. I really don't want to accept the terms they are pushing so I can "move on". It seems it is not in my favor. It doesn't seem like anything is working for me including my lawyer. 

I almost regret getting a lawyer now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## marksaysay

So tomorrow, I fly home for a few days for the first time since last August when me, WW, and daughter took a road trip. I'm looking forward to seeing family but I'm not looking forward to all the questions. 

AND I may or may not have a job (my main job) when I return. They told me Tuesday my time off request was denied. I informed them that my plane tickets were paid for and that I would not return to town 'til Tuesday. Hadn't gotten a response since. Oh well...


----------



## turnera

Good luck with your job!

Have faith in your family; it'll be good to have their support.


----------



## marksaysay

Well, I got back Tuesday so I'm a little late updating. I still have a job as far as I know. I had an interesting trip (its a long story) but I had a great time with my family. All of 6 of my mothers kids were in one place.for.the first time in about 12-15 years.

On another note, only time will tell if I was able to help save my brother's marriage. My brother is the offender and I spoke with both him and SIL. She is so willing to work through this as is he but he attempted to blame her for his choices but I stopped him quickly. We had a long talk and I was able to educate him on many things. I recommended some activities, some steps to take, a couple of books. But the most importantt thing I told them was that they need to start spending more time together. They don't spend hardly any time alone, which they both admitted. I hope they listened.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## disbelief

Hopefully you were able to pay it foward and they heed the advice, what else can we do. Stay strong
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Powerbane

You're an inspiration Mark! Stay strong and set the example.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## marksaysay

Powerbane, thanks for your kind words. It feels good to.hear someone call me an inspiration. The unfortunate thing is, I've learned so much as a result of my seemingly failed marriage and the education that came as.a.result of it. Not only am I educated more I can terms of what makes a marriage last but also on infidelity. I

If I can help people overcome or even avoid what I've been through, then this experience has not been in vain.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lordmayhem

Then perhaps you can venture out of your thread once in a while and help those in need, since you're a minister.


----------



## marksaysay

lordmayhem said:


> Then perhaps you can venture out of your thread once in a while and help those in need, since you're a minister.


Im somewhat offended by these remarks because they seen to imply I do nothing sit around reading and posting on my thread. That is FAR from the truth.

BTW, I have been helping people. My brother was only the most recent. I was given basically free Kung Fu lessons because of what I'd done for someone else. And there are others. I even spoke to pastor about starting something at church to help troubled marriages or teach how to make a marriage work based on what I've learned and from a biblical perspective.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lordmayhem

marksaysay said:


> Im somewhat offended by these remarks because they seen to imply I do nothing sit around reading and posting on my thread. That is FAR from the truth.


Then why are you being so defensive? I'm talking about here in the forum.


----------



## marksaysay

lordmayhem said:


> Then why are you being so defensive? I'm talking about here in the forum.


Ahhh! Thanks for the clarification. I stopped reading other threads a while back because it would take me mentally to a place I didn't want to be. That's why I came back inly to post updates on my own thread. I believe I am much more able to deal with things now so maybe I can do that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lordmayhem

marksaysay said:


> Ahhh! Thanks for the clarification. I stopped reading other threads a while back because it would take me mentally to a place I didn't want to be. That's why I came back inly to post updates on my own thread. I believe I am much more able to deal with things now so maybe I can do that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes, it's quite understandable that reading the different threads can be a trigger for you. It took me quite a while to be able to read the different threads on the different forums before I was able to see things dispassionately and not get very angry. If its still a trigger for you, then don't. Just continue to help people in the real world. Sorry if you were offended, because it was not meant to be so.


----------



## marksaysay

I just misunderstood your statement. Some of the reason for not being here much is also the fact that I try to keep myself really busy. Sitting and reading on this site doesn't do it for me. I think I have ADHD. Lol.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## marksaysay

So its been a while since I've posted but there has been no new changes really. I did do something tonight I.said I wouldn't do. I ran into a former coworker I hadn't seen in a few years and when asked how the wife was.doing, I said "you mean the stbx?". I said I wouldn't call her that but it came out almost instinctually. It felt weird.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## morituri

Don't beat yourself up over having told your friend the truth regarding your marital status.


----------



## marksaysay

I'm not beating myself up. I just told myself I would call her my wife because we were still married. I still warranty my ring which speaks of how I feel about the permanence of marriage regardless of how she feels or acts. It was just weird.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

It's just your mind's way of preparing you. Has to happen.


----------



## stuckmick

notreadytoquit said:


> Welcome to the club! Sorry that you find yourself here. Just read the Coping with Infidelity forum and you will see many versions of that fog.


Im going through the same thing but cant figure out how to post my story


----------



## marksaysay

stuckmick said:


> Im going through the same thing but cant figure out how to post my story


Click on new thread on the coping with infidelity page.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## marksaysay

UPDATE:

I told lawyer to move forward with the paperwork that had been drawn up. In them, I asked for absolutely nothing from my wife. If I'm going to move forward, I'll just have to do without anything from her. 

The paperwork was sent to her and we're just waiting on her response. It will be over soon and I will be moving forward. 

There has still been no contact. GAL tried to force me to communicate with WW through MIL since ww refused to use IM. I refused. I told her I could not do that. I told her I go to the same church with MIL still and she has done nothing but make faces at me and roll her eyes at me even when I've attempted to be cordial. I told her MIL blamed me for wife's infidelity when it was exposed to her. MIL refused to answer my calls on a number of occasions when I tried to discuss matters. She refused to answer her door when I went to her home one day to try to discuss things (I heard her inside so I know she was home). MIL told me her daughter is doing nothing wrong (referring to her continued relationship with OM because we are seperated). I just told GAL I would not communicate through MIL. 

I found it somewhat unreasonable to expect me to communicate through MIL for my daughter's well-being. That has never been a concern of hers. At one time I was told by MIL I was the cause of our daughter's anxiety attacks that began and have continued since we first seperated. I just told I did not make the decision to destroy her world and left it at that.

The unfortunate thing is, no one else wants to serve as our mediator. No one else in her family. No one at our church. Only the friend of mine whom she refuses to use. The GAL told me I was being difficult but I don't think I am.

Anyways, this is where things currently are.


----------



## marksaysay

Update: I am now divorced. Lawyer told me yesterday ww approved of the agreement that was drawn up. I promptly went in this morning and signed all documents. I am now single again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## morituri

Legally that may be but do you really consider yourself single now or will you continue living as though you are still married to and continue wearing your wedding band?


----------



## marksaysay

morituri said:


> Legally that may be but do you really consider yourself single now or will you continue living as though you are still married to and continue wearing your wedding band?


I was thinking the same thing right after I wrote that post. I guess really and truly, I am still married. My ww nor the judge have signed the paperwork, so I'm not legally divorced yet.

Spiritually, I know that I will still be married until death ends that so I guess I will continue to live as if I'm married and I will continue to wear my ring. 

The signing of the paperwork went a little different than I'd anticipated months ago. It was something I dreaded ever having to do but there was really now emotion. 

It's okay. God is with me and that's enough....


----------



## morituri

Please do not take offense, but seeing that you are very religious man, have you considered going into some sort of religious order where a vow of celibacy is required? I ask because since it seems highly unlikely that you an your WW will ever be reunited or that you will ever remarry, then the exclusive service to God may be a viable alternative for you.


----------



## marksaysay

morituri said:


> ... it seems highly unlikely that you an your WW will ever be reunited or that you will ever remarry, ...


With God, all things are possible...


----------



## marksaysay

So I've got everything necessary for my first attempt at cooking a holiday meal. Wish me luck....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## morituri

Good luck Mark and have a great one.


----------



## marksaysay

Its now official. Got paperwork today. I AM DIVORCED.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## aug

just in time for xmas and the new year!


----------



## marksaysay

Yeah...what a nice Christmas present!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TRy

marksaysay said:


> She is currently not fixed in just one emotional affair, but she has actually been seeking the attention and exchanging explicit texts with several men. She says she wants to see whats out there


She is flat out telling you that she is looking for someone better and that she will leave you when she finds him. She is also telling you that she has no respect for you or your marriage, which is why she is in your face about it as she continues to do it.

Why wait for the end on her timetable? You should show self respect by letting her go and filing for divorce. Maybe she will snap out of it and try to earn you back. If she does, only then will you have a marriage worth saving.


----------



## TRy

Just saw that the first post in this thread was in 2010.


----------



## marksaysay

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Best of luck, mark. You'll find happiness again.


----------



## disbelief

Good Luck Mark
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## marksaysay

So its been 9 days since my divorce went final. These last few days have been filled with peaks and valleys. There have been some thoughts of going out and finding someone to have a fling with (just being honest) but my beliefs won't allow me to do that. That thought passed as fast as it came but it was there.

Today, I went out and did a total overhaul of my wardrobe. I hadn't treated myself to anything in well over a year. And I did it BIG today. I'm out now with some acquaintances watching some UFC and having a good time. 

THE JOURNEY CONTINUES....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lou

Good for you.  I recently purchased an entire new wardrobe for myself also. Feels good to feel brand new... But it is hard to let go of your old self. Best of luck with the new year starting.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## marksaysay

I'm home now listening to some jazz, going through my clothes. I've got a large pile on the floor that will be going out tomorrow. As they say, out with old, in with the new.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Awesome way to start the new year.


----------



## marksaysay

So I've been getting tons of compliments on my new look. My 8 yr old daughter even said something yesterday. I think the change has been a good one and well over due.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## marksaysay

Well, I haven't given you an update in a while so here it goes...

WxW called pastor a couple of days after D was final asking him to facilitate a meeting between the two of us so she could give me "closure". She told him she was sorry for the way things went and that she would do things differently if she could. She told him she was as happy as she has ever been and thatI she wantedstated us toto be friends.

I did wonder why he seemed to buy all of her bull. I'm not sure he understands at all the mind of a wayward. One of the first things I thought was she was still only thinking about herself. Yeah, she may be "happy" but happiness is based on outward stimuli and doesn't come from within. 

I actually contemplated the meeting but it won't do anything but push me back to a place I've worked so hard to get away from. I haven't spoke to her or seen her (outside of 2 court appearances) in 7 months. Its my desire to keep it that way.

On another note, I've been doing pretty good. My daughter and I have been having a great time together. I feel good with my new wardrobe. 

Oh, I also quit my regular 8-5 job because I could no longer deal with hating to get up every morning to go. I do pretty well at my part-time job working only half the hours so I'll be okay. 

What still remains, though, is an intense love for my WxW and I don't feel bad saying it. I don't cry it feel bad because of the situation anymore. But the love is still there. I haven't removed my ring yet and I'm not sure I will.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Good job not meeting her. No point.

You ought to buy your pastor a copy of the book Surviving An Affair, so he can see how the wayward mind works.


----------



## marksaysay

Well, it's been a bit since i've updated so here it goes...

Nothing new concerning my ww (or wxw) but I'm doing well. I'm lifting weights again with the goal of putting on about 20 lbs of muscle (I'm 5'10", 160). I've already put on about 5 lbs and my physique has started to draw some comments so that makes me feel good. 

I went out Sunday night to do some karaoke and I had a blast. Not trying to brag or anything but I was the hit of the night (I've been singing since i was 6 and I actually sang at my wedding). I had people coming up to me asking me to sing this and sing that. It was great. The attention I got from the ladies was good, too. Some probably stayed away because I still wear my ring, but that's okay because I'm not looking for anything. It was just good to get some attention. I will probably make that a regular event now because it was fun. 

I'm also learning New Testament Greek and it's coming along well. I started that a couple of weeks ago and I can now read it although my understanding of the vocabulary is limited. I work on vocab regularly and my knowledge of it will increase as i continue.

Also, my relationship with my daughter is as good as it's ever been and I haven't had to talk to or see my wife for that to happen. 

Well, that's all for now....


----------



## ashamed74

Fog is when someone is so infatuated with their desires that they refuse to see the consequences of what they are doing for how harmful it is and what it really is. After the fog lifts comes the pain.


----------



## marksaysay

So its been a while. For me, things are good. Im working out pretty hard with the goal of packing on about 25 lbs of muscle (im 5'10", 157). Im up 10 lbs so far. It seems that ive become somewhat of a celebrity in the karaoke realm lol. I go a couple times a week and people are coming to me making requests and such. Its fun and I enjoy it.

My daughter and I have the best relationship we've ever had. I get to do things with her that I never could now that I work nights. I go eat lunch with her at school, watch her presentations, see her at gymnastics. I was her "date" to her valentines dance. It was great. 

I bought her a childrens devotional during christmas and we read one and discuss it everytime shes with me. She loves it. She even reminds me if I seem to have forgot about it. She looks forward to it.

Its approaching 9 months since my last contact with wife or exwife. That has helped tremendously. Shes still very much wayward and I pray for her everyday. Its funny though because a girl a church told the pastor wife had confronted her about our relationship. We're divorced now so why does she care. The rumor was just that, a rumor because im not seeing anyone and I really dont plan on it.

I cant say im not bothered by the fact that wife seems to be trying to buy our daughter. Daughter always has a story about what her mom has bought her when she comes to see me. It really makes me sick. What bothers me most is the condition our daughter is in. Her hair is an absolute mess every time I see her among other things. Its to the point now where people are starting to talk about my wife (sorry, in my heart, she still ismy wife). I made an appointment with a girl at our church to get daughters hair done this weekend because I cant stand to see it that way anymore. Thats gonna do nothing but raise more questions about my ww. 

I know I cant worry about what shes caused but I do still love her and it is still mildly painful to see her like that. I will just continue to pray...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bandit.45

From the way you describe your wife's neglect of your daughter and her statements to the girl at your church, sounds to me like she is not enjoying her new life the way she thought she would and is fishing to see what kind of response whe can get from you. 

If I may ask, how do you arrange for the pickups of your daughter without talking to your XW?


----------



## marksaysay

I pick her up at gymnastics on wednesdays. On the weekends, I get her from mil. If theres any changes, mil calls and leaves a voicemail because I dont talk to her, either.

I dont know if shes enjoying it or not. I do know its a shame that I have to arrange to get daughters hair done. Wife for years made it her routine to do it either before or after the bath every night. I guess I cant be surprised because waywards are different people. She used to take great pride in how she cared for daughter. Not so anymore.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

marksaysay said:


> I pick her up at gymnastics on wednesdays. On the weekends, I get her from mil. If theres any changes, mil calls and leaves a voicemail because I dont talk to her, either.
> 
> I dont know if shes enjoying it or not. I do know its a shame that I have to arrange to get daughters hair done. Wife for years made it her routine to do it either before or after the bath every night. I guess I cant be surprised because waywards are different people. She used to take great pride in how she cared for daughter. Not so anymore.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Take photos and notes you may need'em.


----------



## marksaysay

Its funny you say that. Yesterday, I called and asked Pastor if he knew anyone who might be willing to do her hair, explaining to him my concern. He said he'd seen pictures because other member of the church have been taking pictures and discussing the lack of care for a while. I will take my own, though.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## notreadytoquit

what's the problem with her hair? Is it too long or too curly and difficult to manage?


----------



## marksaysay

I guess you must first understand we are african american with thick and, at times, difficult to manage hair. And yes, daughters hair is very long. The last couple of times ive had her and have had to do it myself, I noticed it's broken off and frayed in several areas from the lack of care.

Understand, also, that the hair issue is NOT the only thing ive noticed. Unfortunately, I was told by the GAL during our divorce that unless daughter was in serious danger, I had little or no chance getting a judge to grant me custody. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## notreadytoquit

Ok in that case you have to do something about it. Keep the lenght at least manageable and maybe you should say something to your ex wife via your ex mil( I would put it in an email). Your ex wife should be providing for your daughter's care and basic necessities when she is with her. Keeping a neat appearance is part of that.


----------



## marksaysay

I thought about doing that but I just don't know. MIL has enabled wife since the beginning. I pleaded with her when I told her about the infidelity to help me end it, if not for me, then for her granddaughters well-being. I was told it was my fault, I caused it, her daughter's new relationship wasnt wrong because we were seperated (failing to mention it started prior to that). I go to church with her every week but we havent spoken to one another since the spring. Everything I've done or tried to do or say has been twisted. She even used my waywards line by telling me I tried to force my wife back to me by trying to end her affair(s).
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## notreadytoquit

Regardless of what they say at least your concern is on paper. What she is doing is neglect. Today is her hair tomorrow will be something else


----------



## marksaysay

Wow! I didn't realize how long it had been since my last post. I very rarely even read the thread at all anymore but I just thought I'd share something from last night.

I decided to go out and enjoy myself for a bit. I had been standing out front chatting with a few people for about 15 min. when here comes my wxw and 2 of her gfs. The 3 entered the building, walked right by me and I DID NOT CARE.

She obviously didn't care about the bogus PO she has against me since I was there 1st so neither did I. At first I contemplated leaving because they were there. That thought was quickly scrapped. I entered a few minutes later, walked within 2 ft of the trio without eye contact, bought a beer and sat down. I had planned to do it anyhow, so that's what I did.

They ended up leaving about 1/2 later but I REALLY DIDN'T CARE!!!

This was only the 2nd time I've seen her in over a year. In the days and months before, I would have literally fell apart and probably even left, allowing simply her presence to fluster me. That didn't happen and it felt GREAT.

At one time, I came here proclaiming my "unconditional" love and now I even wonder if I still even love her at all. One thing I am totally sure of is I've let her go.......

In some ways, I almost seem like last night's encounter was some sort of victory. I mean, I can barely tell you what she had on or even what she looked like. I noticed she was wearing white pants and that she had long braids, but other than that I don't even know. Once I entered, I didn't even look her direction.

She was probably quite surprised to see me out and drinking a beer. I hadn't done either of those things in the last 6-8 years of our marriage. Actually I hadn't drank in 10 yrs. Maybe that's a regression of sorts but I don't drink to get drunk. I don't even drink at home. 

But nonetheless, I'm happy about how things went last night....


----------



## turnera

Awesome post! We all knew you'd get here.


----------



## Affaircare

Marksaysay~

Dear Hubby and I were just discussing our ex's last night. We've both been divorced for many years now, and we were listening to Marvin Gaye's divorce album "Here My Dear." It's an awesome listen if you can find it!  Anyway one of the songs has to do with "When did you stop loving me? When did I stop loving you?" and so we talked about when we stopped loving our ex's.

I can honestly say that during the divorce process (paperwork and legal stuff) I still very much loved my ex...and probably for a couple years after it was final too. Did I pine after him and whatnot? No, not that but I did care about him and I did wish he had made other choices. At the time the divorce was final, I just accepted the fact that he's the father of my kids...I'll probably always love him in some sense. 

Well....time went on and I can honestly say I don't love him. I don't know when that precisely occurred, but since I think of love as an action mixed with feeling affection, I can say that I did stop acting in a "loving" way and started acting like I would treat any human: civil but detached. I think by not acting "loving" eventually the feelings of affection just died. 

My Dear Hubby is somewhat similar--he stopped behaving in a "loving" way about the time she walked out the door for her AP, but I think the feelings of affection lasted for a while. However, she tried a custody stunt that really hurt the kids and it was so blatant even THEY could tell....and he says after that he didn't care if he ever saw her or heard her voice again. Any feelings were killed by that action.


----------



## marksaysay

I don't really know how to explain it. There is really a part of me that says if she ever had the desire, i would strongly consider reconciliation under the right conditions. But there's another part of me that says if she doesnt ever defog, i will be ok. Maybe its more of acceptance. 

There are still times when i think of possibilities. To be honest, I have actually rehearsed what i would say and ask if they time came. I do still love her, i think. I think i really have come to understand what was meant by the saying "love them enough to let them go"....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lordmayhem

marksaysay said:


> Wow! I didn't realize how long it had been since my last post. I very rarely even read the thread at all anymore but I just thought I'd share something from last night.
> 
> I decided to go out and enjoy myself for a bit. I had been standing out front chatting with a few people for about 15 min. when here comes my wxw and 2 of her gfs. The 3 entered the building, walked right by me and I DID NOT CARE.
> 
> She obviously didn't care about the bogus PO she has against me since I was there 1st so neither did I. At first I contemplated leaving because they were there. That thought was quickly scrapped. I entered a few minutes later, walked within 2 ft of the trio without eye contact, bought a beer and sat down. I had planned to do it anyhow, so that's what I did.
> 
> They ended up leaving about 1/2 later but I REALLY DIDN'T CARE!!!
> 
> This was only the 2nd time I've seen her in over a year. In the days and months before, I would have literally fell apart and probably even left, allowing simply her presence to fluster me. That didn't happen and it felt GREAT.
> 
> *At one time, I came here proclaiming my "unconditional" love and now I even wonder if I still even love her at all. One thing I am totally sure of is I've let her go.......*
> 
> In some ways, I almost seem like last night's encounter was some sort of victory. I mean, I can barely tell you what she had on or even what she looked like. I noticed she was wearing white pants and that she had long braids, but other than that I don't even know. Once I entered, I didn't even look her direction.
> 
> She was probably quite surprised to see me out and drinking a beer. I hadn't done either of those things in the last 6-8 years of our marriage. Actually I hadn't drank in 10 yrs. Maybe that's a regression of sorts but I don't drink to get drunk. I don't even drink at home.
> 
> But nonetheless, I'm happy about how things went last night....


You know you're healing when you reach the stage of indifference. Indeed, your encounter really was a victory, that her hold on you is diminishing. 

The only thing that would have been better is if you had a lady friend with you at the time.


----------



## Fvstringpicker

Ok, let's see, Fog :

A thick cloud of water droplets suspended in the atmosphere at or near the earth's surface that obscures or restricts visibility...

A word used to assuages the ego of the BS and lessens the guilt of the cheater for making bad, deliberate choices. It's like saying, "the devil made them do it", and gives a foundation for whitewashing what really happened and blaming a person who is labeled the sorry POS who seduced one's spouse.


----------



## marksaysay

lordmayhem said:


> You know you're healing when you reach the stage of indifference. Indeed, your encounter really was a victory, that her hold on you is diminishing.
> 
> The only thing that would have been better is if you had a lady friend with you at the time.


Im still trying to figure out if it is indifference or what. As i stated, im almost possitive i would reconcile under right conditions. Maybe ive come to grips with the fact that those condirions may never be met and thats okay.

As far as having a girl on my arm, i thought about that, too. There have been about 3 or 4 different girls that have shown me some attention recently. Had any of them been out that night, i would have really gave her something to see...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bandit.45

Why would you even think about reconciling with a person who put you through the hell she did? :scratchhead:

You need to spend your money on some counseling to get to the core of your codependency.


----------



## marksaysay

I don't think I'm codependent AT ALL!!! I can survive without her. I have survived without her. I will continue to survive without her. 

To answer your question about why? She is, until one of dies, still considered by God to be my wife. She is also the mother of my only child. The best scenario for any child is a loving home with BOTH parents. 

Again, I'm not saying it would happen under ANY circumstances. She would have to pursue it and not me. Even then that would not be enough. I have learned greatly throughout it all about marriage - what does and doesn't work. I've learned about infidelity, how to move past it and ways to try and prevent it's recurrence through firm boundaries, etc. She would also have to be willing to lift the heaviest portion of the reconciliation load. 

That's what I mean when I say conditions. Without those, I'll pass and continue to do what I'm doing...


----------



## MattMatt

marksaysay said:


> I don't think I'm codependent AT ALL!!! I can survive without her. I have survived without her. I will continue to survive without her.
> 
> To answer your question about why? She is, until one of dies, still considered by God to be my wife. She is also the mother of my only child. The best scenario for any child is a loving home with BOTH parents.
> 
> Again, I'm not saying it would happen under ANY circumstances. She would have to pursue it and not me. Even then that would not be enough. I have learned greatly throughout it all about marriage - what does and doesn't work. I've learned about infidelity, how to move past it and ways to try and prevent it's recurrence through firm boundaries, etc. She would also have to be willing to lift the heaviest portion of the reconciliation load.
> 
> That's what I mean when I say conditions. Without those, I'll pass and continue to do what I'm doing...


Now, that's your problem, right there! You should not want to survive without her! You should want to _*THRIVE *_without her!:smthumbup:


----------



## bandit.45

marksaysay said:


> I don't think I'm codependent AT ALL!!! I can survive without her. I have survived without her. I will continue to survive without her.
> 
> To answer your question about why? She is, until one of dies, still considered by God to be my wife. She is also the mother of my only child. The best scenario for any child is a loving home with BOTH parents.


Oh.

Okay.


----------



## Machiavelli

marksaysay said:


> She is, until one of dies, still considered by God to be my wife.


Jeremiah 3:8


----------



## Almostrecovered

fwiw mark I am glad you are in a better place and are happier


----------



## marksaysay

So this makes 2 weeks in a row that I've encountered my wxw on a night out. This time i didn't realize she was in the same establishment (it was packed) until a mutual friend told me they saw her. I REALLY DIDN'T CARE!!!

I stayed and did what I'd planned to do, have a good time, and i did. I shot the breeze with some guys, drank a couple of beers, danced, and simply enjoyed myself. I did pass wxw a few times throughout the night but, again I didn't care.

At one point, i stepped out to catch some air and passed her with some overweight guy. I didn't care. I actually laughed because I'm a former college/pro baseball player who has maintained my physique over the years. The guy she was with didn't seem much like an upgrade....oh well.

Last time, I wished I'd had a girl on my arm. This time I was glad I was alone. I had a good time all by myself and I'm SURE she saw it. 


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## marksaysay

WOW! What is going on???

Today, I ran into my wxw twice. This makes 4 times in the last 2 weeks. Before that, I had only seen her once in 8 months.

The first encounter today was as I was driving by a house where she must have been working (she's a social worker). When I turned the corner, I saw her standing on the porch. When I passed, I looked in the rearview and her eyes were fixed on my car.

The second encounter today was about 1/2 hour later. I met up at the park to chat with a girl a met recently and my wxw drives up. Again, she seemed to be working (she had another kid with her), but i was surprised she stayed because it was obvious she saw me standing there.

I didn't stay once she got out (since her PO says I'm a physical threat to her...which i'm not). But the real reason I left was the point was made even clearer than what she witnessed the last 2 saturday nights.

The last 2 Saturday she's seen me out having a good time by myself. Today, she saw me talking to another women. She now should understand that I AM MOVING ON!!!!


----------



## turnera

I used to stage myself to be where my crush was going to be, when I was in high school...


----------



## marksaysay

turnera said:


> I used to stage myself to be where my crush was going to be, when I was in high school...


HUH??? I may just be having a moment but you're going to have to bring some clarity to this statement.


----------



## marksaysay

marksaysay said:


> HUH??? I may just be having a moment but you're going to have to bring some clarity to this statement.


I got it!!! Duh!!! She's had the choice to leave when she's seen me but she hasn't which means she chose to stay....she wanted to be there.


----------



## turnera

Four times in one week seems like more than a coincidence.


----------



## marksaysay

Now it has been over the course of actually 2 1/2 weeks. Secondly, she couldn't have known where i was going to be on those nights out. There are a couple of places I go from time to time. BUT the first night, she chose to stay even knowing I was there already. 

Passing her while she was working was strictly coincidental. But she did stare in my direction as I passed (i looked in the mirror and saw). 

She also couldn't have known I was going to be at the park. But she did see me there and chose again not to leave.


----------



## CJ83

Mark you are an inspiration. I have read all 57 pages of this thread and have had cold chills with some of things you have dealt with and overcame.


----------



## marksaysay

CJ83 said:


> Mark you are an inspiration. I have read all 57 pages of this thread and have had cold chills with some of things you have dealt with and overcame.


I think I've still got a long way to go yet before I will say I've heard overcome it all but I've come a LONG way. 

Thanks for the kind words but i have to applaud you for subjecting yourself through the torture of reading my horrendous story. There is still so much more to the story than what you have read, both past and present, but what you've read is enough. I consider myself to be the very definition of a "survivor".

One day, I think I might go back and read it in it's entirety just to look at where I once was. I'd like to look back and remember some of the things i did and didnt do, some of the learned, some of the advise i shunned, etc. I think it would be an awesome thing to do. 

I'm not sure the time is now to do that but I'll do it. I still have many struggles but I'm moving on!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CJ83

marksaysay said:


> I think I've still got a long way to go yet before I will say I've heard overcome it all but I've come a LONG way.
> 
> Thanks for the kind words but i have to applaud you for subjecting yourself through the torture of reading my horrendous story. There is still so much more to the story than what you have read, both past and present, but what you've read is enough. I consider myself to be the very definition of a "survivor".
> 
> One day, I think I might go back and read it in it's entirety just to look at where I once was. I'd like to look back and remember some of the things i did and didnt do, some of the learned, some of the advise i shunned, etc. I think it would be an awesome thing to do.
> 
> I'm not sure the time is now to do that but I'll do it. I still have many struggles but I'm moving on!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Your story isn't so different from what I have feared my future may become if my marriage cant be saved with the marriage counselors help. So reading your story and how you have survived is a true inspiration.


----------



## marksaysay

Well, I haven't been here in quite a while so i thought I'd stop in to give an update: 

I'm still single BUT it is by choice. I've had some dates since my last failed relationship (she was a piece of work) but nothing serious. I have really submerged myself into music. I've been singing since about 5 and playing piano since about 10. I recently started doing local open mic events and had a guy interrupt my set last Thursday and asked me if i wanted to perform on local TV. Pretty cool!!!

In 2 weeks, I will have my first paid gig at a local blues/bbq restaurant. I'm really excited about this. At 36, I don't really have any aspirations of making it big but you never know what could happen. People seem to think I'm pretty good....and so do I...LOL!!!


----------



## turnera

Woohoo! What a GREAT update! I am SO happy for you, mark! Send us a link!


----------



## SkaterDad

wow, just read all of this! very inspiring, I have a daughter that's 7 and a wayward with a very similar family who think nothing of it. I'm on my way to divorce, and very much in the state of still seeing reconciliation, but also having NC and working on letting go, knowing it is very much over unless she decides to change. Glad you're doing well!


----------



## marksaysay

SkaterDad said:


> wow, just read all of this! very inspiring, I have a daughter that's 7 and a wayward with a very similar family who think nothing of it. I'm on my way to divorce, and very much in the state of still seeing reconciliation, but also having NC and working on letting go, knowing it is very much over unless she decides to change. Glad you're doing well!


I'm doing okay. I'm just glad my story can serve to be an encouragement and an inspiration for someone. It was definitely one hell of a ride! 

While I can't say I'm seeking reconciliation, I can honestly say I *still *love my ex. I'm pretty sure I always will. If she were to express remorse tomorrow with a willingness to do her part in recovery, I wouldn't think twice about. I don't think that's gonna happen, though, and I have accepted that.


----------



## marksaysay

Things have been really different lately. It seems that since I've come out of my proverbial shell, i have been getting attention from all sorts of women ranging from 18 - 45. It's very differnt!!!

I wouldnt consider myself to be the most physically attractive but it seems that something is causing this. Maybe it's my new found confidence and the idea that i don't need someone to be happy. Whatever it is, i like it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## marksaysay

Well, my first gig is tomorrow night. I have 30 minutes to fill and I've narrowed my song choices down to 7. I'll prepare them to do them all and just feel out the crowd. 

I invited about 100 people via fb and word of mouth. Several have stated they would be attending. I'm so excited!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## the guy

I have said this a couple of time and I'll say it again chick dig confident guys.

Have fun man you diserve it! In fact we all diserve good things.


----------



## turnera

Good luck! I mean, break a leg!


----------



## marksaysay

Thanks!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## marksaysay

Show went well. I could have done better but i always say that! I could feel my voice tiring about halfway through my 3rd of 6 songs. I still finished fairly well. 

About 10 of 100 people i invited were there so that made it nice. Overall, it was just an awesome experience!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bigtone128

Affaircare said:


> To my mind, the "fog" is what I call Disloyal Dizzy talk. That's when the disloyal spouse says something out loud, and you think to yourself, _"Umm??  Do you hear what you just said?_"
> 
> You have known your disloyal spouse for years. You know what his/her true character is like, but while your disloyal is active in the affair, it LOOK like them and SOUND like them...but it's not them. I personally call this the "Evil Twin" (in a nerdy reference to that Star Trek Classic episode with the goatees). Many loyal spouses make the mistake of thinking, "Oh s/he would never do that to me or hurt the kids like that..." and their spouse's true character might never do that, but whilst in the affair, the disloyal's way of thinking is very different. Not in every single case, but about 99% of the time, the disloyal is thinking primarily of themselves only and if they have to hurt a few people along the way (their spouse or their children) they will do so. This fact ALONE is really hard for many loyal spouses to accept.
> 
> 
> *Here's how Disloyal Dizziness starts*. Most disloyals think of themselves as someone honest and faithful, so why would someone who's honest and faithful commit adultery? They have to come up with a reason to justify doing something that's utterly against their character! To continue, let's think of a drug addict.
> 
> Have you ever seen someone who isn't a drug addict yet have their first few times with drugs--wooooooo it feels good! They act silly or feel numb or whatever the effect is...they like it. But who thinks of themselves as a crack addict, right? I bet most people think, "I would never be a drug addict--I grew up in a nice neighborhood" (or something along that line). Then they have their first couple times with the drug and LOVE the feelings and the effect! So they want to do that again, and they have a job so they buy some. Then it takes more of the drug to get that same effect/feeling so they buy more. Now they aren't doing so good at work--maybe they're in trouble--but they rationalize that away as the boss being out to get them. Their family or parents say something and they justify their crabbiness by saying their family "doesn't understand them." Then the drug addict doesn't have enough money and they NEED the drug, so they steal it out of their mom's purse. Now the addict isn't the kind of person who would steal, but they justify it to themselves don't they? They have to do it again, and this time their mom catches them, and do they admit the drugs are wrong and take personal responsibility? NO!!! No, they blame their parents, blame work, blame EVERYONE but themselves and even when they can see the damage they're doing, they won't admit it. Finally they even run away and end up sleeping people for money so they can buy their drug. Some part of them may know they're living in the gutter, but they do and say things that are not them--not the nice kid who was raised by good parents in a nice neighborhood.
> 
> Does that make sense? Your disloyal is addicted to the affair. Like a drug addict s/he will say or do anything to get more of the zing of the affair--including hurt people and do things that are not them. They magnify your flaws and their unhappiness, sometimes even saying things like "I never have loved you all these years" or "I was never happy" when you know darn well they were! They magnify the Other Person's (OP's) good points and how "happy" they are, and supported by Hollywood Hype think it is a love story and they are "star-crossed lovers who found each other. They complete me. They are my destiny." (CHOKE!) AND when they talk, it is the talk of confusion to deflect responsibility, deny it, blame others, ANYTHING to twist it around so they can continue the affair.
> 
> 
> My favorite tactic with "fog" (aka Disloyal Dizziness) is to agree and then turn it around on them. For example:
> 
> Disloyal: "Why should I end the affair? You ignored me for years! You had your chance and you blew it!"
> 
> Loyal: "You're right. Why would I love someone who's had an affair and is ignoring me? You are blowing your chance to do the right thing."
> 
> -OR-
> 
> Disloyal: "Oh so you can have female friends but I can't have male friends?"
> 
> Loyal: "You're right. I maintain friendships with people of the opposite sex being sure they all understand that you have 100% of my affection and loyalty. Is that what YOUR friendships mean, or do you give those other men affection and loyalty over your spouse?"


Okay, my ex left me for her AP - what will ultimately snap her out of the fog?


----------



## turnera

That's great, mark!


----------



## turnera

bigtone128 said:


> Okay, my ex left me for her AP - what will ultimately snap her out of the fog?


 bigtone, I'll tell you what we tell everyone - until you can stop hanging your hopes on her coming back, and start living your life for YOU, no matter WHAT she does, you will live in misery.

You weren't born married to her; you won't die tied to her at the hip - we all die alone. Even the minute she said I do, you weren't assured of 'getting to keep her.' Until you can understand that it's always been a crapshoot and that she IS NOT WHAT MAKES YOUR LIFE COMPLETE, you will live in misery.

We tell you to move on and then if she comes back, you MAY still be interested in taking her back. Meanwhile, you're living your life again no matter WHAT she does. It's the only way you'll stay sane.

(see how I didn't tell you how to get her back?)


----------



## marksaysay

I found my old thread an actually thought about reading it. Then I thought why? I can remember at one time I didn't know how I could make it. Now more than 4 yrs after my first post, I have made it through. 

If anyone is crazy enough to read through all I endured, how unstable I was mentally and emotionally, how hopeless I felt, more power to you. But I can give you the cliff notes version of my 50+ page saga...I made it throught it all. And so can you!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## disbelief

marksaysay said:


> I found my old thread an actually thought about reading it. Then I thought why? I can remember at one time I didn't know how I could make it. Now more than 4 yrs after my first post, I have made it through.
> 
> If anyone is crazy enough to read through all I endured, how unstable I was mentally and emotionally, how hopeless I felt, more power to you. But I can give you the cliff notes version of my 50+ page saga...I made it throught it all. And so can you!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



I made it through as well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lordmayhem

marksaysay said:


> I found my old thread an actually thought about reading it. Then I thought why? I can remember at one time I didn't know how I could make it. Now more than 4 yrs after my first post, I have made it through.
> 
> If anyone is crazy enough to read through all I endured, how unstable I was mentally and emotionally, how hopeless I felt, more power to you. But I can give you the cliff notes version of my 50+ page saga...I made it throught it all. And so can you!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah, its been a while, last I saw you decided to stay at the marriagebuilders forum because you told those people there that people here were pro divorce. Do you still have an intense love for your cheating ex-wife? Do you believe God sees her as your wife? Do you still run into her all over town? 

I honestly felt that you were going to be one of those guys who spends the rest of his life pining away for his cheating ex-wife who lied to everyone about you, had a frivolous RO served on you and kept your daughter from you. From your threads, it looks like you've started to live again and have relationships but haven't yet found The One.


----------

