# Historical Honesty?



## Quality

VladDracul said:


> Considering the circumstance, he ask her if she had anything to confess. From my viewpoint, no. Before I met and married my wife, I led a sordid life. She knows better, but if she asked the details, she'd get a well deserved NOYB answer. There is nothing that gives me the liability and responsibility to incriminate myself, depreciate my relationship, risk my happiness, "confessing" things that happened before an agreement of exclusivity between us was reached .


[I don't know if I'm supposed to ask VladDracul if I can start a thread using his quote or not but I hope he doesn't mind and decides to participate]

When my wife and I are coaching premarital couples we encourage them to provide each other with a full personal historical accounting, specifically, for their past dating AND sexual behavior to the extent they are comfortable sharing. The worksheet is pretty much exactly like this one LINK (and I'm come to learn our team leaders developed our from this exact questionaire). 

My wife and I were always very open with each other about such things whereas my sister and her husband never spoke of their dating/sexual history premarriage. Most premarried couples seem pretty fine with sharing it too. 

I just wonder....is Vladdy right? Is it "none of their business" and/or does it lead to "incriminating" oneself, depreciating the marital relationship {or soon to be marriage}, and risk 'happiness"???

OR,

Does it hurt the marital relationship by depriving it of intimacy and making it a little more risky? Aren't secrets intimacy killers? 

Does knowing someone's ugly past actually depreciate the relationship or enhance it?

We see on these forums all the time people hooking up with their ex-girlfriends and ex-boyfriends trying to recapture their youth. How is a couple to protect themselves if they don't even know who these ex's all are and the extent of the past relationship? I mean a girl I "dated" in elementary school is certainly less of a risk than a woman I had full sex with in college or some girl I had three ways with and who was my dominitrix at the time {not that I did these things ~ just a for intance}. 

When coaching we strongly advise that our couples never have social media connections or speak alone with any person they have ever dated or had sex with {and if it happens, like say you run into an ex at the grocery store - you are obligated to call your spouse immediately and report the extent and content of the interaction as a habit because your spouse is your priority and what better way to demonstrate that}. I suppose you could implement that boundary without actually telling each other everything; however, it just seems to make a stronger and less tempting boundary to have all that messiness out on the table from the get go. Satan is crafty, he won't sent that temptress over to you until he's got you beaten' down and at your most vulnerable. Accountability and honesty is the first line of defense against such evil.

What do you think about historical honesty?


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## MJJEAN

I don't believe in the concept of privacy in marriage. Two become one and all that. When dating and discerning marriage, DH and I went over our sexual and relationship histories in detail to better know each other, to gauge both sexual and moral compatibility, and to avoid the possibility of nasty surprises later. I am definitely pro-historical honesty.


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## happy as a clam

Some historical honesty is warranted, but I certainly wouldn't want or expect all the sordid details, nor would he.

When we got together, my SO and I covered the very basics starting with "any potential STD risks?" We discussed any recent sexual partners -- as for me, I had been married for 20 years (with no infidelity for me or my then-husband); my SO hadn't been with anyone since he separated from his wife 18 mos prior, and they were married for 11 years. No infidelity for either of them. 

We didn't discuss much (who, how many, kinks, positions, "best ever", etc.) about partners in our distant past. But neither of us was ever into one night stands; sex for both was only ever in committed relationships. I was comfortable with that amount of detail and so was he.

Over the years I've gleaned that I probably had more sexual partners than he did (but I'm talking single digits) and all is good in our world .

ETA: I'm in line with @VladDracul... no need to churn up sleeping dogs. Unless someone's health or well-being is involved. Or someone is hiding something awful. In which case you should get the hell away from them anyway!


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## uhtred

For me, all I would care about are things in her past that could have a direct impact on our lives. Diseases. Vengeful mobsters. Trauma that significantly impacts her life today. Addictions. Mental illness. Non-obvious important physical disabilities.

No interest at all in how many guys or girls she has had sex with, or what porn movies she has starred in.


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## CharlieParker

My wife made sure I knew about, and was OK, with her large number of previous partners. That and when discussing sexual compatibility the word oxygen was used. But IIRC that was the extent of it, sex-wise at least. A lot of stuff on the worksheet came out anyway but without structure.


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## DustyDog

Quality said:


> [I don't know if I'm supposed to ask VladDracul if I can start a thread using his quote or not but I hope he doesn't mind and decides to participate]
> 
> When my wife and I are coaching premarital couples we encourage them to provide each other with a full personal historical accounting, specifically, for their past dating AND sexual behavior to the extent they are comfortable sharing. The worksheet is pretty much exactly like this one LINK (and I'm come to learn our team leaders developed our from this exact questionaire).
> 
> My wife and I were always very open with each other about such things whereas my sister and her husband never spoke of their dating/sexual history premarriage. Most premarried couples seem pretty fine with sharing it too.
> 
> I just wonder....is Vladdy right? Is it "none of their business" and/or does it lead to "incriminating" oneself, depreciating the marital relationship {or soon to be marriage}, and risk 'happiness"???
> 
> OR,
> 
> Does it hurt the marital relationship by depriving it of intimacy and making it a little more risky? Aren't secrets intimacy killers?
> 
> Does knowing someone's ugly past actually depreciate the relationship or enhance it?
> 
> We see on these forums all the time people hooking up with their ex-girlfriends and ex-boyfriends trying to recapture their youth. How is a couple to protect themselves if they don't even know who these ex's all are and the extent of the past relationship? I mean a girl I "dated" in elementary school is certainly less of a risk than a woman I had full sex with in college or some girl I had three ways with and who was my dominitrix at the time {not that I did these things ~ just a for intance}.
> 
> When coaching we strongly advise that our couples never have social media connections or speak alone with any person they have ever dated or had sex with {and if it happens, like say you run into an ex at the grocery store - you are obligated to call your spouse immediately and report the extent and content of the interaction as a habit because your spouse is your priority and what better way to demonstrate that}. I suppose you could implement that boundary without actually telling each other everything; however, it just seems to make a stronger and less tempting boundary to have all that messiness out on the table from the get go. Satan is crafty, he won't sent that temptress over to you until he's got you beaten' down and at your most vulnerable. Accountability and honesty is the first line of defense against such evil.
> 
> What do you think about historical honesty?


Well, I think the phrase "historical honesty" isn't quite the right one. "Historical completeness" works better for me.

I see far more issues with hiding the past than disclosing it. There may be some issues in your past that you know aren't going to go over well...but if you know they are there, so do other people, and your spouse may find out anyway. For instance, in my own distant past is a DUI arrest, but not conviction. If I were dating a woman with a history of alcoholism in her family, I'm sure this would be a troubling fact for her...but I am definitely going to let her know. I am not troubled by it. i know what led to it, I know how I got past it, it hasn't, and won't, happen again.

And that brings up another point.

Vlad says:


> Before I met and married my wife, I led a sordid life. She knows better, but if she asked the details, she'd get a well deserved NOYB answer. There is nothing that gives me the liability and responsibility to incriminate myself, depreciate my relationship, risk my happiness, "confessing" things that happened before an agreement of exclusivity between us was reached .


The whole tone of this paragraph says that Vlad has not come to terms with his own history. He describes it as "sorded", and that exposing it would "incriminate" himself and depreciate his relationship. If this is really how he feels about his own past, then this is a major impairment to his ability to fully enjoy his current relationship. Part of "psychological well-being" is self-acceptance. That means you consider everything in the past to be positive, or at least educational. If you're not seeing your past "negative" behaviors as educational, then you have not outgrown them.

I LOVE hearing the past misdeeds of those I get close to...not because the events matter so much, but what led them to making those decisions and more importantly - what led them to make decisions differently? This is a big part of getting to know someone - how they make decisions. And especially if there's a sequence of improved decision-making leading to personal growth. To hide your past from someone is to block their ability to see how wonderful you are at self-care and growth. And I would not want to be with anybody who'd like me without knowing that about me.

Just my woof....

DD


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## Married but Happy

Quality said:


> When my wife and I are coaching premarital couples we encourage them to provide each other with a full personal historical accounting, specifically, for their past dating AND sexual behavior *to the extent they are comfortable sharing*.
> 
> I just wonder....is Vladdy right? Is it "none of their business" and/or does it lead to "incriminating" oneself, depreciating the marital relationship {or soon to be marriage}, and risk 'happiness"???
> 
> What do you think about historical honesty?


Well, the bolded statement basically confirms Vlads position, so aren't you arguing for his position?

My thoughts are that a generalized summary of one's past is a good idea. Specifics about WHO, WHAT, WHEN, WHERE are not needed and often not desirable. For those who say that there is no privacy in marriage, then consider that this means that you or your spouse could share anything about _your_ relationship with anyone else (particularly in a later relationship, even if you keep current issues private). Past partners have a right to privacy, too, just as you probably expect to keep things in your relationship private now.

The only things that need to be revealed (in as general a way as suffices) are those that could negatively affect your partner now or at a later date if revealed (such as felonies, children from an earlier relationship, credit problems that could affect your joint financial future, and the like). Also, if you are still friends with a past lover, that should be shared, as it could look bad if it comes out later. The rest is up to them to decide to share - or not. Otherwise - IMO - you don't have to know about or approve of their past, as long as you are on the same page now, and are not hiding things you _will want_ from each other.

So, that youthful orgy doesn't matter - unless you could be blackmailed because someone has pictures!


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Married but Happy said:


> So, that youthful orgy doesn't matter - unless you could be blackmailed because someone has pictures!


:surprise:

If it truly doesn't matter, then the presence of pictures should be irrelevant. :nerd:


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## leon2100

I should have asked my wife years ago. Now, after 52 yrs of marriage, she doesn't even remember when we had sex the first time. She still thinks I nailed two of her sorority sisters, who by the way were sisters. I think it might disappoint her if she knew I hadn't.


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## Married but Happy

I'll add that honesty/completeness about the past is risky. So many people still have a double standard when it comes to women's sexuality vs. men's, so women will often be judged more harshly and unfairly because of this bias. Just as no one has the right to know my thoughts, they don't have the right to know my past. I may choose to share either with them, but it is not required (unless - as I said - my past can materially and negatively affect them in our future).


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## Andy1001

When I met my girlfriend I was one of those guys who are hated on tam,constant one night stands and short term relationships.I had never "fell" for any woman and didn't really understand the concept of long term relationships,or love for that matter.I had spent years traveling the world, staying at the best hotels and I had the ability to pick up women effortlessly it seemed.
Then in the space of one weekend my best friends and long term roommates (Two gay girls) moved out and both my parents died.
Basically I was lost and I decided to move to a new apartment while getting a house built.Very early one morning I was out walking and there was a new business,a gym getting ready to open and there was a girl cleaning the windows.She turned and looked at me and I swear it was like a physical punch to the gut,she was the most beautiful woman I had ever seen and I fell in love immediately.I spent months courting her before she agreed to be my girlfriend and for most of the time since we have being very happy.We had a problem last year but that has been sorted out.
I will never tell her how many women I have slept with(I don't actually know myself but it is in the hundreds) and told her I don't want to know how many previous partners she has had.In my opinion the most important thing is I have been faithful to her from the day we met.
I can't change my past,nor do I want to but I don't want to discuss it with the woman I love either.
Sometimes your private life should remain that way.


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## Hope1964

Andy1001 said:


> it is in the hundreds


Does she at least know this much? Have you shown her you're STD free? 

It was important for me to know the generalities at least. Unfortunately he left some things out that 'incriminated' him if you will - behaviours that would have raised red flags such as the fact he did phone sex for a period of time, and that he started using porn at a young age, and that he and his sisters friend used to 'act out' the porn he had. I think if I'd known a lot of what I know now I probably wouldn't have stayed with him. He's managed to become much more healthy today than he was when I met him, and I wouldn't even think of divorcing him over it, but it was pretty painful to find out all this stuff while going through the healing process of his betrayals. I don't feel like he lied about anything - I think if I'd been in his shoes I'd probably have neglected to mention it too. And I never specifically asked.


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## Andy1001

Hope1964 said:


> Does she at least know this much? Have you shown her you're STD free?
> 
> It was important for me to know the generalities at least. Unfortunately he left some things out that 'incriminated' him if you will - behaviours that would have raised red flags such as the fact he did phone sex for a period of time, and that he started using porn at a young age, and that he and his sisters friend used to 'act out' the porn he had. I think if I'd known a lot of what I know now I probably wouldn't have stayed with him. He's managed to become much more healthy today than he was when I met him, and I wouldn't even think of divorcing him over it, but it was pretty painful to find out all this stuff while going through the healing process of his betrayals. I don't feel like he lied about anything - I think if I'd been in his shoes I'd probably have neglected to mention it too. And I never specifically asked.


We both had blood tests and we were fine.Until her I had never gone "bare back" in my life.


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## MJJEAN

Andy1001 said:


> I can't change my past,nor do I want to, but I don't want to discuss it with the woman I love either.
> Sometimes your private life should remain that way.


This kind of thinking is so foreign to me. I can't understand why someone would want a past or present "private life" they keep the details of from the person they love. I understand that this is fairly common thinking, I just don't get it. I want my spouse to know and love all of me, including the part

I have seen relationships blow up over discoveries of past sexual behavior. Some variation of "I found out that my SO had a few bisexual threesomes/hired a prostitute once in the 90's/went to an orgy/did porn/slept with 200 people and, as much as it shouldn't matter, it does. S/he's not the person I thought s/he was..."

I know someone right now who had a MFM and really, really, doesn't want his wife to find out. In fact, he specifically asked we never say a word about it in her presence because he knows she'd have serious issues with it. Too bad he stabbed me in the back. I am waiting to "accidentally" run into her so I can tell her. I have felt bad about keeping it from her for years and then her fool husband gave me an excuse to A) get revenge and B) finally come clean by telling what I know.


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## Quality

Married but Happy said:


> Well, the bolded statement basically confirms Vlads position, so aren't you arguing for his position?


Not really.

As stated, Vlad's appears to me {a presumptio} to be a one sided non-disclosure that sounds a little bit more like he knows his wife doesn't have a sorbed past and he presumes she wouldn't and doesn't want to fully know about his.

We encourage couples to complete the historical honesty worksheets privately and to share them only with one another. Asking questions and for more detail is also encouraged, however, we also ask that they each consider the level of detail they want and can handle prior to asking for more detail. The worksheet itself doesn't leave a whole lot of room for more than a summary of the basics so the extent of further "digging" is really up to the couples. This exercise is supposed to develop intimacy ~ if it appeared to my wife and I that either the wife or the husband were some overbearing controlling jerk with an alcohol and|or anger issue, it might not be the right time for this intimate building exercise.

If, for instance, Vlad's wife was pretty much well aware of his history and they discussed it and she and he came to a joint agreement that they just didn't want to know any more about it and to live in the now and the future as though it didn't exist ~ that would be their choice. Maybe one spouse DOES want the history and the other is fine with providing theirs but not so much interested in hearing the others ~ if the couple if OK with that, then so be it.


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## FrazzledSadHusband

My wife's past is what caused me to find TAM. She had some serious baggage issues that caused a lot of turmoil in our marriage. None of it was disclosed before marriage, she lied to both me & the pastor doing the pre-marital counseling.

It wasn't until the kids were old enough to know Dad would never abandon them that I could tell her talk to a counselor or I file for divorce. Prior attempts at counseling led her to threaten taking the kids & leaving.

Marriage should start on a firm foundation. My wife could have written this article - https://forgivenwife.com/unbearable-lessons/ 

Her interactions in prior relationships affected our marriage. I sent her the link & said stop viewing me like all the other men in your life. I have NEVER treated you badly.


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## VladDracul

DustyDog said:


> The whole tone of this paragraph says that Vlad has not come to terms with his own history.
> DD





Quality said:


> As stated, Vlad's appears to me {a presumptio} to be a one sided non-disclosure that sounds a little bit more like he knows his wife doesn't have a sorbed past and he presumes she wouldn't and doesn't want to fully know about his.


As a point of clarification, my wife knows the basics of my past life and I have generally disclosed it here. Around this town, she'd heard it from somebody anyway. But in general terms is all anybody's going to get or is entitled to. She knew at the time if she needed details about my past "business endeavors" she probably need to avoid me. As yes, she's a good girl. Been married before and had a couple of relationships before and between marriages, but ain't nothing I couldn't compete with. At least that's what she tells me. But its like the song sez, "I got her boy and that makes me the winner."

But here's the thing. To each his/her own whether you feel it necessary to know a certain amount about your mate's past relationships. The reality is that you know with dead certainty whether you "shared" it all or maybe held a little back. But you will never know if your mate did. You may say, "I trust my spouse and know I got the whole story". Well ok, maybe you did. But if ten people believe they got the whole story, what's the likelihood that some didn't? So probing around for details about past relationships to see if anything disturbs you or if you measure up, is an exercise in futility and deep down causes suspicion and doubt. If a mate dated enough people, chances are of them could work all day, romance all night, and still make two of you. But you got her/him and that make you the winner.


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## alexm

There are two kinds of people in relationships - those who are okay with/want to disclose and/or know their partners past history. And those that do not. Period, full stop.

My ex wife and I were absolutely okay with sharing our histories with one another, pretty much right away, as well. The whole thing wasn't a big deal to either of us. We could have just as easily never discussed the topic whatsoever, and it wouldn't have mattered.

I'm an open book and always have been. I don't go around blabbing things, but if asked, I have no problems owning who I am, warts and all. My wife is the polar opposite, which is okay, of course, but it's at odds with my take on life in general.

So the problem (if it's a problem at all) _isn't_ that I know very little about my wife's past, it's that she's so unwilling to share anything, really, with me.

For me, the 'solution' is easy - if you find yourself in a relationship with somebody who IS an open book and wants to know you - the "real" you, including your past - then tell them what they want to know. It's the lesser of two evils, really.

The reality is that when you say "none of your business" or worse, lie, it'll actually create far bigger problems than actually owning your ****. The person wants to know, hence why they asked. If they judge you not worthy of your past actions, then so be it - that's their problem. It really is. The entire process of dating is to judge one another, literally. "Is this person up to my standards for a long-term/marital partner?" Part of this process for some is to inquire about their past relationship (or sexual) history.

Not being comfortable, or worse, feeling shame over your past actions indicates far more than actually being up front, if you ask me.


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## zookeeper

I don't believe in lying or shame. I am who I am and my experiences as a whole have molded me. Good and bad, they are a part of me.

I will gladly answer any questions my wife has about my past, but always caution her to make sure she actually wants to know the answer. I don't have a need to know details about her sexual history. 

I'd like to say how foolish it is to marry someone without knowing what you need to know, but I have to allow for the fact that as people evolve their needs evolve as well. 

The big problem arises when someone can't reconcile what they want with what they get. Some men seem obsessed with finding a virgin but then can't accept that a woman who avoids sex most likely has little sex drive. Some women want to be with an exciting "bad boy" and then get upset that he doesn't become an angel once they are married. I especially enjoy when someone marries a person who cheated on his/her spouse with them and are then devastated when that person eventually cheats on them in return. This isn't really that hard. Don't buy a Prius if you need to tow a horse trailer. Don't move to Miami if you want to snowmobile. Be honest with yourself about your priorities and accept the sacrifices that must be made to see them through.

When our needs harbor mutual exclusivity, the problem created is OURS to reconcile.


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## Andy1001

MJJEAN said:


> This kind of thinking is so foreign to me. I can't understand why someone would want a past or present "private life" they keep the details of from the person they love. I understand that this is fairly common thinking, I just don't get it. I want my spouse to know and love all of me, including the part
> 
> I have seen relationships blow up over discoveries of past sexual behavior. Some variation of "I found out that my SO had a few bisexual threesomes/hired a prostitute once in the 90's/went to an orgy/did porn/slept with 200 people and, as much as it shouldn't matter, it does. S/he's not the person I thought s/he was..."
> 
> I know someone right now who had a MFM and really, really, doesn't want his wife to find out. In fact, he specifically asked we never say a word about it in her presence because he knows she'd have serious issues with it. Too bad he stabbed me in the back. I am waiting to "accidentally" run into her so I can tell her. I have felt bad about keeping it from her for years and then her fool husband gave me an excuse to A) get revenge and B) finally come clean by telling what I know.


I told my gf that I had being sexually active from a young age and that I had a lot more previous partners than her,this was when we were having the exclusive talk.We both had blood work carried out and we were both clean.She told me,even though I didn't want to know,that she had had three previous partners,make of that what you will.She allready had a son when I met her and most of our activities had to include him so overnights were out of the question,at least during the first few months.When my house was finished that changed things a bit.
As far as something coming back to bite me in the ass, I never paid for escorts,never went to an orgy( I don't play well with others and I don't share)never did porn and no bi curious feelings, just straight hetero sex.It's the numbers I don't want to discuss and nobody else really knows except for my best friend and she's not going to say anything.
From the day I met my gf I have never had sex with anyone else.


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## Wolf1974

Pretty simple for me. I am an open book and I expect the same. No subject is off the table or we couldn't be together in an exclusive relationship. Has never been an issue. I only found out that people don't discuss these things when I came to TAM. To each their own so long as both partners are in agreement with what is or isn't shared...just don't lie. The truth always comes out eventually as we have seen the results of such here.


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## She'sStillGotIt

Quality said:


> When coaching we strongly advise that our couples never have social media connections or speak alone with any person they have ever dated or had sex with {and if it happens, like say you run into an ex at the grocery store - you are obligated to call your spouse immediately and report the extent and content of the interaction as a habit because your spouse is your priority and what better way to demonstrate that}.


You can't be serious.

It sounds like a parent coaching a child about 'stranger danger.'

Honestly, I'd laugh my ass off if my husband actually called me to 'report' that he'd just passed his ex-girlfriend in the mall and they stopped and said hi to each other and caught up for a few minutes. Am I supposed to give him a cookie when he gets home as a reward for 'reporting in to the warden' 12 seconds after their chat? He's not allowed to come home and just mention it to me that he happened to run into her? :rofl::rofl:


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## Quality

She'sStillGotIt said:


> You can't be serious.
> 
> It sounds like a parent coaching a child about 'stranger danger.'
> 
> Honestly, I'd laugh my ass off if my husband actually called me to 'report' that he'd just passed his ex-girlfriend in the mall and they stopped and said hi to each other and caught up for a few minutes. Am I supposed to give him a cookie when he gets home as a reward for 'reporting in to the warden' 12 seconds after their chat? He's not allowed to come home and just mention it to me that he happened to run into her? :rofl::rofl:


LOL ~~

These are just good habits that people practice in long term successful marriages. I was just giving a "for instance" and, in particular, if that spouse had been wayward, he/she shouldn't spend more than a couple seconds "catching up" with any old lover. 

The reason we suggest an immediate call is because most people can't recall the full extent of a short "catching up" conversation with an old flame word for word and it's much easier to fully recall the details if you call immediately. Also, if a person KNOWS they need to call their spouse immediately, they probably won't linger in the conversation with the ex, have lunch with them or exchange phone numbers or hugs because the old excuse hours later where they just say "hey, ran into Sheila today, she says "hi" and forget any other details doesn't work so easy that way. Further, many men might even forget to mention they ran into an old flame at all {because it's no big deal, right} and, wouldn't you know it, a month later you run into the same old flame as a couple and they bring it up leaving the wife upset about getting blindsided and suspicious about the prior meeting. 

This isn't a prison environment and there are no treats or rewards other than communicating to one another that you are each prioritizing and protecting your marriage from all outsiders ~ especially risky ones like old flames. We encourage couples to communicate their expectations and talks about what they are and are not comfortable with or NEED to know. I mean, it seems you agree your husband SHOULD tell you about running into the ex when he gets home later, so it's not like you don't recognize it's kind of an important thing to mention, right?

Like always though ~ any couple is free to do whatever they want in their own marriage. The absolute hardest thing about coaching pre-marrieds and couples that haven't experienced infidelity {yet} is convincing them just how likely it is to happen to them and how these "suggestions" and best practices aren't stupid or "laugh my ass off worthy". The more immune a person|couple thinks they are, the more at risk they are. If being married "long-term" is important to you, this is what couples that have successfully done it ~ did.


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## wild jade

She'sStillGotIt said:


> You can't be serious.
> 
> It sounds like a parent coaching a child about 'stranger danger.'
> 
> Honestly, I'd laugh my ass off if my husband actually called me to 'report' that he'd just passed his ex-girlfriend in the mall and they stopped and said hi to each other and caught up for a few minutes. Am I supposed to give him a cookie when he gets home as a reward for 'reporting in to the warden' 12 seconds after their chat? He's not allowed to come home and just mention it to me that he happened to run into her? :rofl::rofl:


I had a similar reaction when I read this. Both my husband and I have many friends that we might run into, that we might chat with online, that we might reconnect with through various means. My husband is an avid Facebook user and has most if not all of his old lovers and girlfriends on there. I can't imagine telling him he needs to account for every interaction with them any more than I feel obliged to account for every one of mine.


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## Quality

Why do we need "best practices" and to behave like other couples that have achieved successful long term marriages?


"Socrates compared living without thinking systematically to practicing an activity like pottery or shoemaking without following or even knowing of technical procedures. One would never imagine that a good pot or shoe would result from intuition alone; why then assume that the more complex task of directing one’s life could be undertaken without any sustained reflection on premises or goals? Perhaps because we don’t believe that directing our lives is in fact complicated. Certain difficult activities look very difficult from the outside, while other equally difficult activities look very easy. Arriving at sound views on how to live falls into the second category, making a pot or a shoe into the first." - Alain de Botton, _The Consolations of Philosophy _(2000).​
"Love is a skill, not an enthusiasm". Alain de Botton, _The Course of Love_ (2016)​

Sharing historical honesty might not be romantic, but perhaps romanticism is the single greatest obstacle to real genuine love???


"Marriage: a hopeful, generous, infinitely kind gamble taken by two people who don't yet know who they are or who the other might be, binding themselves to a future they cannot conceive of and have carefully omitted to investigate." Alain de Botton, _The Course of Love_ (2016)​
The person who is best suited to us is not the person who shares our every taste (he or she doesn’t exist), but the person who can negotiate differences in taste intelligently — the person who is good at disagreement. Rather than some notional idea of perfect complementarity, it is the capacity to tolerate differences with generosity that is the true marker of the “not overly wrong” person. *Compatibility is an achievement of love; it must not be its precondition. * Alain de Botton, _Why You Will Marry The Wrong Person_ New York Times, May 28, 2016 LINK​


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## alexm

All I know is that if I ever have to date again, I'm not going to do two things:

- pry
- continue to date someone who is sketchy, lies about something, or tells me it's is none of my business in regards to their past

The reality is, it matters to some people, and it doesn't matter to others. If one partner is the former and the other is the latter, it's trouble just waiting.


----------



## Quality

wild jade said:


> I had a similar reaction when I read this. Both my husband and I have many friends that we might run into, that we might chat with online, that we might reconnect with through various means. My husband is an avid Facebook user and has most if not all of his old lovers and girlfriends on there.


I'm in no way telling you or your husband how to live your lives, however, what you describe above is risky behavior.

I totally understand the mindset because it's exactly how my wife and I felt long ago about opposite sex friends. We were special snowflakes, immune to the trials and tribulations of "those" kind of couples. We didn't have facebook and all the technology back then but surely our love would protect us from all evil.

People aren't statistics {so I'm not fortune-telling here} ~ but somewhere around 50% of all marriages will, at some point, be impacted by infidelity {known or unknown}. I'm just guessing but it's probably somewhere between a 33%-66% likely that any affair that COULD potentially arise in your marriage would be with one of those "old lovers and girlfriends" either of you maintain relations with. Maybe you FEEL the percentages in your situation are much, much less but unless you can state with absolute 100% certainty that neither you nor your husband will EVER cheat {admittedly something nearly every wayward and betrayed spouse on every infidelity forum likely thought early in their marriages too}, than what you two are doing is, admittedly, risky behavior.

Doesn't mean you can't do it ~ however, ask yourselves this ~~ can you practice risky behavior without being at risk????




wild jade said:


> I can't imagine telling him he needs to account for every interaction with them any more than I feel obliged to account for every one of mine.


I'm also not suggesting you need to TELL HIM what to do. This is about mutual bilateral accountability. I'm suggesting you consider having a logical and reasoned conversation about such behavior. What are the boundaries and expectations? Are there any rules? Should you share passwords? What does accountability mean to us? Is it important and why? This is about making your marriage extraordinary, not a restriction on your life and freedom. 

25, even 30 year old me would have thought this all was absurd too. My wife and I hope to teach people to learn from our mistakes and do better. MANY don't listen, but we keep trying because we'd much rather couples avoid infidelity than have to help them pick up the pieces AFTER infidelity. If your {or anyone's} take away here is nothing more than just a frank discussion about it with your spouse, I haven't wasted my time.

For further information or a professionals viewpoint on the subject, perhaps this article would be helpful: 
The Risks of Opposite Sex Relationships in Marriage, By Dr. Harley, Marriage Builders.


----------



## sokillme

I had a general idea of my wife's sex count, don't think it's a lot. I wanted her to feel about sex the way I do, that is it is special and not like having coffee. I don't know the details or what they did, I don't care. She was an adult long before she met me. In fact besides a general conversation I never even asked any details. I could pretty much tell that she was telling the truth about how she felt about sex because of her example of character about everything (not saying sex count = character but we got to know each other first and fell in love before we did anything.). But who knows I may be wrong. 

I really don't have much fear of being cheated on anymore. I know it can't be any worse then what I went through (because I really thought the pain would never end, now I know it will). I chose to make the lesson be that nothing would ever break me like that again. Not that it couldn't happen again, I am well aware of that. 

Because of that the stuff like if she bumps into someone at a supermarket or whatever I don't need to know that. I trust my wife because she deserves it. The issue would be if she lied. If it came out she didn't tell the truth about her history then she misrepresented herself, then I would have to see. If it was too much of a trust breaker then I will just move on. If she seriously breaks the trust then she won't get it back. So if she cheats, she cheats, There will be no monitoring her phone or where she is, I don't want to be married to someone who doesn't want to be married to me. I will move on and have a happy life. 

I guess the point being, I just expect her to be authentic. If she is not then I won't want to be with her anymore. That's OK too.


----------



## chillymorn69

Never asked and neither did she as to our past relationships.

I could careless. 

Never caused any problems. She once mentioned that she had sex with a big one and it hurt and that my size was just right. And I said bullshat your just sayin that. Now get over here and......

Lol thats about all that was ever said.


----------



## Satya

My husband knew what he was getting with me. 

I knew what I was getting with him. 

We are honest with each other and things like retroactive jealousy or TMI just doesn't exist for either of us. 

I know for a fact that if my partner count had been a lot higher than it was when we met, we would not be together. 

Likewise, if he'd had a larger number of partners than he did when we met, we would not be together. 

For him, high partner count for a woman means she will bond less successfully, and I agree with his opinion, hence why I kept my number low when I found myself single again. 

For me, high partner count for a man is fine and acceptable (it's his choice and not my place to judge) but I would find his way of life incompatible with my own. I would find his ability to bed multiple women prior to me telling about the things he values in life. A man speaks through his actions, especially. He can be capable of change if he chooses, but he is still the sum of his experiences up to that point. I would not want to be a catalyst for such a dramatic lifestyle change in a man, because then I will be seen as the reason. Change should be an innate, personal decision. Making me the reason raises that pedestal high and takes away my ability to be seen for the person I am, fallible. 

Not sure if I am explaining it well.


----------



## wild jade

Quality said:


> I'm in no way telling you or your husband how to live your lives, however, what you describe above is risky behavior.
> 
> I totally understand the mindset because it's exactly how my wife and I felt long ago about opposite sex friends. We were special snowflakes, immune to the trials and tribulations of "those" kind of couples. We didn't have facebook and all the technology back then but surely our love would protect us from all evil.


I don't think I'm a special snowflake, and I really don't think that love will protect us from anything.

I guess I just don't view keeping in touch with exes s necessarily any more risky than any other activity. And moreso, I don't want to live in a world where my day to day has to be curtailed because of "risk". 

As for accountability, we have agreed that we won't cheat on each other. I know for 100% certainty that I can most easily keep that promise. I'm much less certain about him, but will cross that bridge when I have to. Not before. 

Don't get me wrong. I know that what you are saying is well-intentioned, that infidelity is very common, a risk faced by all couples. And maybe your advice is good. I just can't imagine living my life that way.


----------



## Married but Happy

I found the question list rather intrusive and while some of the questions are helpful, I think many are not. When I am exploring a relationship with someone, I have a different way of evaluating things. I do have my own questions and issues that I will explore, but not formally. These are things that come up in conversation and through spending time together in a variety of situations - many are not things I'd ask directly, either. As such, it is less succinct than a written questionnaire, but likely to be far more accurate. Here is a list of the questions and issues that I find important - it may not be complete or exhaustive, and will change somewhat depending on the person I'm with. Notice that there is no expectation of revealing number of partners or specific sex acts with anyone, but current attitudes are key. There is no particular order to these when it comes to real-life learning about each other -they arise in context - and many of these things are learned by observation and by doing things together, including sex. In my experience, sex begins early in the dating process, so sexual topics are often among the first things explored.

Do you currently have any STDs/STIs?
When were you last tested for STDs/STIs? If never or not recently, will you do so soon?
Do you have any kinks or fetishes that you may (ever) want to pursue? What are they?
[If children are desired, can you have children, as far as you know? Any known genetic/other issues?]
What are your views on birth control, and related issues?
Have you been sexually abused? Explain. If so, have you been treated for this?
Have you been physically, verbally, or emotionally abused? Explain. If so, have you been treated for this?
Have you ever abused someone else in any of these ways? Explain.
Were you raised with any strong social or religious views, or forced to behave in accordance with same?
How would you rank your sex drive several years into a long term relationship: low, medium, high? If you have not had any long relationships, try to project based on what you know about yourself.
Do you have any expectations for sexual frequency, initiation, and range of activities? Any aversions? Any problems or issues with performance?
What are your primary sexual turn-offs? Turn-ons?
[Discuss the factors contributing to each person’s sex drive.]
Do you use any illegal drugs, or improperly use any prescription drugs? Explain.
Do you abuse alcohol, and is there any history or alcoholism or abuse in your family? Any addictions?
Have you ever smoked tobacco or other drugs, and do you now smoke or use other drugs in any form?
Do you have any illnesses, physical or mental? If so, what are they, are they acute or chronic, and what are the treatments? Has your weight or fitness level been significantly different in the past?
Is there any history of physical or mental illness in your family? Explain.
Have you been previously married? Do you have any children? Do you want [more] children? Explain.
Are you still in love with or nostalgic about anyone from a past relationship? Are you still in contact? If so, who, where are they located, and how will you handle this?
Are you in any way settling or compromising for this relationship? Do you have reservations? Explain.
Do you have any problems committing to a relationship, and observing agreed-to boundaries? Explain.
Have you cheated on any past partner? Have you started another relationship before ending a prior?
Do you have any unconventional views on love, sex, or relationships? Explain. Do any of these affect the kind of relationship you want or need, and in what ways?
What constitutes unacceptable behavior regarding flirting, porn, OSFs, etc.?
Summarize for each other, and discuss: philosophical, political, social, sexual, and religious views.
How much debt do you have, and what is it for? What is your ability to pay it? What is your credit rating? Do you have any savings or assets? Are you saving for retirement, education, or a home?
Discuss mutual saving and spending and priorities for each. Education? Home? Cars? Travel? Etc.
What are your life, career, personal, and family goals? How and when do you plan to achieve them?
Describe some key life experiences that have shaped your views and goals.
What makes you feel loved and cared for?
What is your personality type (suggest using Myers-Briggs)? Do we have compatible communication styles?


----------



## CharlieParker

Satya said:


> We are honest with each other and things like retroactive jealousy or TMI just doesn't exist for either of us.
> 
> I know for a fact that if my partner count had been a lot higher than it was when we met, we would not be together.


I've come to learn I'm very much in the minority but not only was I OK with her high number, I thought of it a positive. 25+ years later, all without infidelity, it's a non issue. I'd never heard of retroactive jealousy before TAM.


----------



## Middle of Everything

Interesting discussion with all valid viewpoints.

Most important thing I think is honesty. If you are going down the "i got my number you have yours" route and dont want to know anymore, that works as long as both are honest in wanting/thinking that. If you go down the tell each other more route regardless of detail level, be honest.

For my wife and I the honesty is where we had problems. She early on told me "one guy, one time". That wasnt really honest, and we had some sexual/intimacy problems because of it. Now we've worked past most all of it and they were never really big problems at all. I also understand my wife's motivation for not being completely honest. She very much cared for me and was falling in love with me I believe. She didnt want to screw that up. I understand the pressure we can be under to be "perfect" for ones we love. In the end its water under the bridge.


----------



## james5588

Ugh...

Together 16 years and I still am trying to figure this one out. By either metric (NOYB or total openness), she gets an 'F'...

On our first date, on the way to her place following a lovely time at the beach, she went there and asked me about my 'past'. I could tell that she really liked me and I saw this as a way to facilitate openness and trust. My 'past' (or lack thereof) takes all but 3 seconds. She pressed for a few more details. Having really nothing to hide, I obliged. I then asked her to provide me with answers to same questions. Frankly, I didn't care. To me the past is the past. People grow and change. At the same time, fair is fair and good for the goose and all that other stuff. One thing that I don't tolerate is hypocrisy and double standards. So I expected her to be as forthright with me as she expected me to be with her.

But the devil truly lies in the details.

On the surface, her past is as non-existent as mine. Come later to find out that she seriously cheated on everyone before me but had rationalized to herself that it wasn't cheating because she retroactively decided they weren't "exclusive". She went back and forth and back and forth (and back and forth) between her BF's for years. Sure, her number was very low. But the details couldn't be anymore sordid. And then just went I think I heard it all, she piles on even more (some of which she now claims she just made-up).

But then, and here is the kicker, she is 'low desire' and we are textbook 'sexless'. Then the choir of common sense starts to chant: she isn't into me, what if I don't excite her, maybe she found someone else, maybe she reconnected with someone from her past (she is FB friends with one, promised to unfriend him and lied about that, too), maybe she is cheating, maybe she just settled for me thinking I would be a safe faithful provider. At the very least, she is trickle truthing me but about something - who knows.

Ah, but then kicker number 2 (because we all have 2 legs, I guess), she has really let herself go: she has gained close to 120 lbs, her hair is thinning and even balding in some areas, her complexion... People from before don't recognize her. You get the point. At the same time, she constantly jokes and makes reference to her past escapades even in polite conversation. The whole thing is pretty disgusting...

I started IC and after a few months, T advised me to graduate to MC. But truthfully, I don't even know if I care enough at this point to even bother. 

Point being. I think either one (NOYB or full disclosure) will and can work for a loving couple so long as people are consistent. Pick one and stick with it! I would only preface 'NOYB' with simultaneously demonstrating that you are truly a changed person and that the past is in the past never to rear its ugly head again.


----------



## Bananapeel

I don't really care about sexual past. My thought is that it is needy and insecure to ask numbers. I am not the type to get jealous and I'm only really concerned about whether we are having a good sex life, not what happened with her previous relationships. I expect to know about history of cheating since past behavior is a predictor of future behavior, so I'll ask about that.


----------



## Not

If I had known about my H's sexual past before marriage I never would have married him. It wasn't revealed until about 7 years and two kids into the marriage. At the same time though, because of the tremendous level of shame involved, I can understand his not saying anything. Very painful stuff to admit to but that doesn't change the fact that these are things I had every right to know. 

This thread does ask a great question and barring extreme circumstances I think I would side with those saying to be honest about things in the past. I don't know that I could ever be with someone who makes it clear they are keeping things from me, at least without reassurance from them that it's not something that would affect me today anyway. 

I'm a very private person, a loner basically and typical have no inclination to share things about myself with others but if I were to enter a new romantic relationship I feel that a huge part of getting to know someone is knowing their past and I would gladly answer most questions. If the questions were to get to the point where minute details of previous sexual experiences was being asked for that would throw up a red flag for me. I'd be wondering about the guys confidence level but that's just me.


----------



## james5588

Not, 

I don't get that, the inconsistency. In the beginning, don't wanna go there fine, only to then open the flood gates later?

Is it a matter of now that the relationship is secure they feel comfortable sharing?

Or something more nefarious, like trying to sabotage an unsatisfying marriage but too scared to pull the trigger...


----------



## Not

james5588 said:


> Not,
> 
> I don't get that, the inconsistency. In the beginning, don't wanna go there fine, only to then open the flood gates later?
> 
> Is it a matter of now that the relationship is secure they feel comfortable sharing?
> 
> Or something more nefarious, like trying to sabotage an unsatisfying marriage but too scared to pull the trigger...


James I honestly don't know. He's a very emotionally immature person and I've never been able to decide if his telling me was a tactic to get me to feel sorry for him or if he was genuinely reaching out for.... I don't know what, maybe help of some kind. It was never mentioned again which I know is really bad but I know when and when not to leave something be with him. This is one of those things that needs to be let be. Needless to say our marraige is in horrific shape because of the secrecy (and many other things) between us.


----------



## MAJDEATH

Interesting topic. Is it possible for the same person to start with "completely open/honest" then later go with "NOYB"? When we first met, W was very open about past relationships. Her number was much higher than mine (of course, anything is higher than 1). She even admitted to hooking up with my older brother briefly the year before we met. She kept the details to herself.

At the time, I appreciated the honesty because, even in my teenaged mind, I knew that when a girl really liked you, she wouldn't risk admitting to being loose in case the boy wouldn't care for that. 

In later years when we were separated (during the dark ages of our marriage), she wouldn't admit to other relationships or details, even when she had permission and there should have been no reason to hide it.

Perhaps that speaks to the nature of some folks, that at times when you are really into a person and blinded by love, you are so open and honest. But when trouble arises, suddenly you become very private and keep your business to yourself.


----------



## CharlieParker

I just remembered this. GF said she only had "sex" with 3 guys. Guy discovered she blew 36 other guys and is not happy.

Audio NSFW


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

CharlieParker said:


> I just remembered this. GF said she only had "sex" with 3 guys. Guy discovered she blew 36 other guys and is not happy.


My wife made it about half way through that movie and refused to watch the rest. She was so put off by an unmotivated slacker bragging about being able to make a girl come, that she refused to enjoy anything that came after, and ultimately bailed before the movie hit its stride.


----------



## Middle of Everything

CharlieParker said:


> I just remembered this. GF said she only had "sex" with 3 guys. Guy discovered she blew 36 other guys and is not happy.
> 
> Audio NSFW https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBtUFSHl4ZY


Good movie.

And somewhat was my problem. Nowhere near those numbers. But similar concept.

And always baffles me how some can minimize oral etc so much.


----------



## Hope1964

I guess the moral is - define SEX when you have the conversation. If you have the conversation. My husband had me thinking for YEARS that he'd had more intercourse partners than he actually did.


----------



## james5588

I wish I had the answer, Not.

In my case, maybe it's stemming from an incompatibility or different values. 

Maybe MAJDEATH is right. As much as I hate to admit it, I know that if she had told me this in the beginning I could have accepted it. Blinded by bliss? Or maybe just able to better accept that part of her past. But learning about it later (that is after watching her give birth to our children, standing by one another hospital bed, etc) leads to all kinds of questions and wondering and uncertainty. That doubt - it's a cruel thing to do to someone.

Either tell up front or forever keep quiet, I guess!

But how to come back once its out but not in the open?


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Hope1964 said:


> I guess the moral is - define SEX when you have the conversation. If you have the conversation. My husband had me thinking for YEARS that he'd had more intercourse partners than he actually did.


And Hillary though her husband had had sex with fewer partners than he did!

"I did not have sexual relations with that woman, Miss Lewinsky"


----------



## alexm

james5588 said:


> Ugh...
> 
> Together 16 years and I still am trying to figure this one out. By either metric (NOYB or total openness), she gets an 'F'...
> 
> On our first date, on the way to her place following a lovely time at the beach, she went there and asked me about my 'past'. I could tell that she really liked me and I saw this as a way to facilitate openness and trust. My 'past' (or lack thereof) takes all but 3 seconds. She pressed for a few more details. Having really nothing to hide, I obliged. I then asked her to provide me with answers to same questions. Frankly, I didn't care. To me the past is the past. People grow and change. At the same time, fair is fair and good for the goose and all that other stuff. One thing that I don't tolerate is hypocrisy and double standards. So I expected her to be as forthright with me as she expected me to be with her.
> 
> But the devil truly lies in the details.
> 
> On the surface, her past is as non-existent as mine. Come later to find out that she seriously cheated on everyone before me but had rationalized to herself that it wasn't cheating because she retroactively decided they weren't "exclusive". She went back and forth and back and forth (and back and forth) between her BF's for years. Sure, her number was very low. But the details couldn't be anymore sordid. And then just went I think I heard it all, she piles on even more (some of which she now claims she just made-up).
> 
> But then, and here is the kicker, she is 'low desire' and we are textbook 'sexless'. Then the choir of common sense starts to chant: she isn't into me, what if I don't excite her, maybe she found someone else, maybe she reconnected with someone from her past (she is FB friends with one, promised to unfriend him and lied about that, too), maybe she is cheating, maybe she just settled for me thinking I would be a safe faithful provider. At the very least, she is trickle truthing me but about something - who knows.
> 
> Ah, but then kicker number 2 (because we all have 2 legs, I guess), she has really let herself go: she has gained close to 120 lbs, her hair is thinning and even balding in some areas, her complexion... People from before don't recognize her. You get the point. At the same time, she constantly jokes and makes reference to her past escapades even in polite conversation. The whole thing is pretty disgusting...
> 
> I started IC and after a few months, T advised me to graduate to MC. But truthfully, I don't even know if I care enough at this point to even bother.
> 
> Point being. I think either one (NOYB or full disclosure) will and can work for a loving couple so long as people are consistent. Pick one and stick with it! I would only preface 'NOYB' with simultaneously demonstrating that you are truly a changed person and that the past is in the past never to rear its ugly head again.


I don't want to hijack this thread too much, but I think a lot of what you describe could (sort of) fit in with my wife's narrative of her life, as well.

Without turning this into a super long reply, I can tell you that my wife, who is also LD (or ND, or something around there) also had a 'history' and also trickle-truthed or omitted things.

Over the course of time, I have realized that it all has FAR less to do with sex than anybody would think. The amount of sex she may have had, or even the specific partners, have no bearing on who she _really_ is, at least as a sexual being.

Many of the things you mentioned in regards to your wife are classic low/no self esteem. The longer I've been with my wife, and the better I know her, and the more she opens up - the more I realize that much of her past was very much due to a similar lack of self esteem, as a woman or as a person.

And therein lies the rub in many cases - self esteem is built by being with an accepting, loving partner. The better you feel about yourself, the more you want to distance yourself from your very different past. Yet you mention that your wife often brings up her past escapades in conversation, which seem to coincide with some weight gain, and over all physical changes - ie. self-esteem affecting things. It seems as though she's sliding down that slope to requiring this sort of attention again. Which was likely the point of her bouncing around numerous guys and overlapping them. It made her feel good that she could have multiple men, pretty much when she chose to have them. And I don't mean sexually. Sex was just the means to an end.

So in a nutshell, I know that my wife didn't live her life for sex, or that her drive was any higher than it is now. Sex was just a way to feel attractive, in demand, wanted - all ego and self esteem boosts. I highly suspect that your wife is/was similar, given that you say she's LD. In some cases, I think being LD is actually a plus for that sort of behaviour - sex simply means less as a whole. It's just a thing you do. Not only that, but the less meaning it has, the easier it is to overlap with partners, as she did. You're able to make flippant justifications, such as "we weren't exclusive", etc.


----------



## Middle of Everything

Hope1964 said:


> I guess the moral is - define SEX when you have the conversation. If you have the conversation. My husband had me thinking for YEARS that he'd had more intercourse partners than he actually did.


To be fair Hope it's in the name. Oral sex. I think when someone doesnt count oral sex as "sex" its intentional and likely with a purpose of minimizing or if Im reading your post right in your husbands case exaggerating.


alexm said:


> Many of the things you mentioned in regards to your wife are classic low/no self esteem. The longer I've been with my wife, and the better I know her, and the more she opens up - the more I realize that much of her past was very much due to a similar lack of self esteem, as a woman or as a person.


Again I see similarites with your wife and mine Alex. Although she's never come out and said point blank that her early experiences were due to lack of self esteem and needing to feel desired as a woman, I'm pretty good at reading between the lines. I think this might be more common than we realize.


----------



## Hope1964

Middle of Everything said:


> To be fair Hope it's in the name. Oral sex. I think when someone doesnt count oral sex as "sex" its intentional and likely with a purpose of minimizing or if Im reading your post right in your husbands case exaggerating.


In our case, it was a matter of "How many people have you had sex with?" To him, that answer included oral sex. To me it didn't. And neither of us thought to clarify exactly what 'sex' included to us until we had 'The Big Reveal' many years later.


----------



## MAJDEATH

What the hell is "retroactive honesty" anyway? How can you forget an experience from a few months ago but remember finite details about that same experience many years later?

It is because you knew but didn't want to tell the most important person in your life - your spouse.


----------



## Married but Happy

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> And Hillary though her husband had had sex with fewer partners than he did!
> 
> "I did not have sexual relations with that woman, Miss Lewinsky"


My wife started naming sex acts lately, so last weekend I had a Lewinsky (oral) and a Falwell (missionary), and she had a Leslie (private joke).


----------



## MAJDEATH

Middle of Everything said:


> CharlieParker said:
> 
> 
> 
> I just remembered this. GF said she only had "sex" with 3 guys. Guy discovered she blew 36 other guys and is not happy.
> 
> Audio NSFW https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBtUFSHl4ZY
> 
> 
> 
> Good movie.
> 
> And somewhat was my problem. Nowhere near those numbers. But similar concept.
> 
> And always baffles me how some can minimize oral etc so much.
Click to expand...

I also remember a movie that talked about the "rule of 3". Basically, because of the double standard, girls divided the number of partners by 3, to not appear so ****ty. Guys multiplied the number of partners by 3, to appear more studly. I think the movie was "American Pie 2".


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Married but Happy said:


> My wife started naming sex acts lately, so last weekend I had a Lewinsky (oral) and a Falwell (missionary), and she had a Leslie (private joke).


I love it!

You could have a Lassie (doggie style), Rimes (cowgirl) or Semir (Reverse cowgirl!)


----------



## Not

james5588 said:


> I wish I had the answer, Not.
> 
> In my case, maybe it's stemming from an incompatibility or different values.
> 
> Maybe MAJDEATH is right. As much as I hate to admit it, I know that if she had told me this in the beginning I could have accepted it. Blinded by bliss? Or maybe just able to better accept that part of her past. But learning about it later (that is after watching her give birth to our children, standing by one another hospital bed, etc) leads to all kinds of questions and wondering and uncertainty. That doubt - it's a cruel thing to do to someone.
> 
> Either tell up front or forever keep quiet, I guess!
> 
> But how to come back once its out but not in the open?


That is the question. With hindsight I say I should have left right then but I had two small children and was still pretty young. I was afraid of being on my own and going to my family for help was not an option. I guess we do what we feel we have to do at the time, what seems the best option for all involved and try to continue living.


----------



## FrazzledSadHusband

james5588 said:


> Not,
> 
> I don't get that, the inconsistency. In the beginning, don't wanna go there fine, only to then open the flood gates later?
> 
> Is it a matter of now that the relationship is secure they feel comfortable sharing?
> 
> *Or something more nefarious, like trying to sabotage an unsatisfying marriage but too scared to pull the trigger..*.


Another way to look at it ...


----------



## james5588

Not said:


> That is the question. With hindsight I say I should have left right then but I had two small children and was still pretty young. I was afraid of being on my own and going to my family for help was not an option. *I guess we do what we feel we have to do at the time, what seems the best option for all involved and try to continue living.*


No coming back. There's just moving on...


----------



## DustyDog

Married but Happy said:


> I'll add that honesty/completeness about the past is risky. So many people still have a double standard when it comes to women's sexuality vs. men's, so women will often be judged more harshly and unfairly because of this bias. Just as no one has the right to know my thoughts, they don't have the right to know my past. I may choose to share either with them, but it is not required (unless - as I said - my past can materially and negatively affect them in our future).


I have never actually met anybody who had the "usual" double standard. I have met a LOT of women who "have needs that need filling" and if between boyfriends, they'll just find a safe-enough guy online and have first-date sex and never see him again. These same women, however, do not consider those guys worthy of a second date, specifically because they were willing to provide exactly what she wanted. I happen to enjoy the kind of energy these women have, so I am more than a one-night-stander...or rather, was...back in the days when I was dating, which is about 20 years ago.


----------



## DustyDog

james5588 said:


> Not,
> 
> I don't get that, the inconsistency. In the beginning, don't wanna go there fine, only to then open the flood gates later?
> 
> Is it a matter of now that the relationship is secure they feel comfortable sharing?
> 
> Or something more nefarious, like trying to sabotage an unsatisfying marriage but too scared to pull the trigger...


I think "b".

I am a genuinely nice caring person who shares himself readily and am able to reflect back to someone what I see - gently - and when they are ready.

I have had many women tell me "I can't believe I'm saying this to you, but you're the first man I've felt safe being weak around" or "telling the truth about my past". People tend to hide the past from those they don't trust with it...so be trustworthy. And if a relationship is working, the trust grows with every moment together.


----------



## Satya

Married but Happy said:


> My wife started naming sex acts lately, so last weekend I had a Lewinsky (oral) and a Falwell (missionary), and she had a Leslie (private joke).


We have a few joke names ourselves:

The "It's Dead, Jim." - When Odo is super groggy in the morning, amorous, but it's sleeping and doesn't want to get up. 

The "Whats your name again?" - Odo blurts this question out after a really good orgasm. References a time from our very first walk together, when I asked what his last name was. He sarcastically told me how shocking it was that such a mature woman would go "this far" with a man without knowing his name.  

The Bag of Doritos - When the orgasm is particularly intense it brings on euphoria. Odo posted the reference here a long time ago. He was so happy and euphoric one time after, he muttered this very slurred, "my balls feel like a bag of Doritos." It was by far the most random thing I've ever heard from him at such a time. Even he was like, "wtf did I just say?" and we both laughed hysterically. 

The Starfish - Acknowledging when one partner is just too darn tired for whatever reason but you need sex (happens to us both at times) so one of you just lays there and takes it like a pro. Usually involves many laughs. Starfish emulation is required. 

The Wifely Duty - What Odo calls it when he knows I've been particularly busy with work, but I do my best to make sure I don't neglect sex and bonding. We joke and call it duty sex even though it's nothing of the sort.

The "I'm off Like Your Prom Dress!" - Odo's parting words as he leaves for work each morning. Accompanied by necking and fondling me under my pj's until I'm a hot mess, then he's quickly out the door.


----------



## Married but Happy

Satya said:


> We have a few joke names ourselves:
> 
> The "It's Dead, Jim." - When Odo is super groggy in the morning, amorous, but it's sleeping and doesn't want to get up.
> 
> ...


Sounds like a Star Trek reference to me - love it!

One of my favorites is the "Earth Mover" (reverse cowgirl, but my name for it seems much more appropriate). I add sound effects as she backs into position: Beeep. Beeep. Beeep!

The first time, we broke down laughing hysterically.


----------



## jld

Married but Happy said:


> I found the question list rather intrusive and while some of the questions are helpful, I think many are not. When I am exploring a relationship with someone, I have a different way of evaluating things. I do have my own questions and issues that I will explore, but not formally. These are things that come up in conversation and through spending time together in a variety of situations - many are not things I'd ask directly, either. As such, it is less succinct than a written questionnaire, but likely to be far more accurate. Here is a list of the questions and issues that I find important - it may not be complete or exhaustive, and will change somewhat depending on the person I'm with. Notice that there is no expectation of revealing number of partners or specific sex acts with anyone, but current attitudes are key. There is no particular order to these when it comes to real-life learning about each other -they arise in context - and many of these things are learned by observation and by doing things together, including sex. In my experience, sex begins early in the dating process, so sexual topics are often among the first things explored.
> 
> Do you currently have any STDs/STIs?
> When were you last tested for STDs/STIs? If never or not recently, will you do so soon?
> Do you have any kinks or fetishes that you may (ever) want to pursue? What are they?
> [If children are desired, can you have children, as far as you know? Any known genetic/other issues?]
> What are your views on birth control, and related issues?
> Have you been sexually abused? Explain. If so, have you been treated for this?
> Have you been physically, verbally, or emotionally abused? Explain. If so, have you been treated for this?
> Have you ever abused someone else in any of these ways? Explain.
> Were you raised with any strong social or religious views, or forced to behave in accordance with same?
> How would you rank your sex drive several years into a long term relationship: low, medium, high? If you have not had any long relationships, try to project based on what you know about yourself.
> Do you have any expectations for sexual frequency, initiation, and range of activities? Any aversions? Any problems or issues with performance?
> What are your primary sexual turn-offs? Turn-ons?
> [Discuss the factors contributing to each person’s sex drive.]
> Do you use any illegal drugs, or improperly use any prescription drugs? Explain.
> Do you abuse alcohol, and is there any history or alcoholism or abuse in your family? Any addictions?
> Have you ever smoked tobacco or other drugs, and do you now smoke or use other drugs in any form?
> Do you have any illnesses, physical or mental? If so, what are they, are they acute or chronic, and what are the treatments? Has your weight or fitness level been significantly different in the past?
> Is there any history of physical or mental illness in your family? Explain.
> Have you been previously married? Do you have any children? Do you want [more] children? Explain.
> Are you still in love with or nostalgic about anyone from a past relationship? Are you still in contact? If so, who, where are they located, and how will you handle this?
> Are you in any way settling or compromising for this relationship? Do you have reservations? Explain.
> Do you have any problems committing to a relationship, and observing agreed-to boundaries? Explain.
> Have you cheated on any past partner? Have you started another relationship before ending a prior?
> Do you have any unconventional views on love, sex, or relationships? Explain. Do any of these affect the kind of relationship you want or need, and in what ways?
> What constitutes unacceptable behavior regarding flirting, porn, OSFs, etc.?
> Summarize for each other, and discuss: philosophical, political, social, sexual, and religious views.
> How much debt do you have, and what is it for? What is your ability to pay it? What is your credit rating? Do you have any savings or assets? Are you saving for retirement, education, or a home?
> Discuss mutual saving and spending and priorities for each. Education? Home? Cars? Travel? Etc.
> What are your life, career, personal, and family goals? How and when do you plan to achieve them?
> Describe some key life experiences that have shaped your views and goals.
> What makes you feel loved and cared for?
> What is your personality type (suggest using Myers-Briggs)? Do we have compatible communication styles?


Very good list, MbH. 

I would add, "_What do you think of spying on a partner? As in, placing a VAR in their car, secretly monitoring their phone/computer activity, hiring a PI to follow them if you have suspicions, etc.? What role do you think privacy in marriage has, if any?_"


----------



## alexm

Middle of Everything said:


> Although she's never come out and said point blank that her early experiences were due to lack of self esteem and needing to feel desired as a woman, I'm pretty good at reading between the lines. I think this might be more common than we realize.


That's generally the reason anybody does that sort of thing or has a multitude of sexual partners.

The major difference is that men generally feel great about it afterwards, whereas women do not. The truth is that neither should feel great OR bad about it, as it's a basic human need - being desired, that is.

I can't speak for her, but I don't think my wife is ashamed of having x-number of sexual partners so much as she's ashamed that she was so needful of attention for a period in her life and going about it in that way. And that's really how women are made to feel, unfortunately. You see a lot of that, even here.

I have a 17 year old stepson, and I've given him some advice when it comes to sex that I think all kids that age should be given, regardless of gender. I told him that sex is fun, but try to avoid using it as a tool to boost your self-esteem, and especially not your ego - it's very easy to get caught in that cycle.

And just as importantly, recognize when your prospective partner is looking for something like that, as well. Do everything you can to ensure both of you are in the right mindset to start with, and that there isn't an agenda that's going along with it. And don't take advantage of someone, if you can help it.

The long term effects of this type of behaviour can last well into adulthood and beyond. I'm fairly certain that my wife, for example, feels like she was taken advantage of, despite being a willing participant at all times. Because she was willing, she can't blame _them_, so she blames herself. And as a result, she ensures, to this day, that she is not "available" sexually to me, her husband. She subconsciously does not make herself vulnerable. I'm certain of this.


----------



## wild jade

Married but Happy said:


> I found the question list rather intrusive and while some of the questions are helpful, I think many are not. When I am exploring a relationship with someone, I have a different way of evaluating things. I do have my own questions and issues that I will explore, but not formally. These are things that come up in conversation and through spending time together in a variety of situations - many are not things I'd ask directly, either. As such, it is less succinct than a written questionnaire, but likely to be far more accurate. Here is a list of the questions and issues that I find important - it may not be complete or exhaustive, and will change somewhat depending on the person I'm with. Notice that there is no expectation of revealing number of partners or specific sex acts with anyone, but current attitudes are key. There is no particular order to these when it comes to real-life learning about each other -they arise in context - and many of these things are learned by observation and by doing things together, including sex. In my experience, sex begins early in the dating process, so sexual topics are often among the first things explored.
> 
> Do you currently have any STDs/STIs?
> When were you last tested for STDs/STIs? If never or not recently, will you do so soon?
> Do you have any kinks or fetishes that you may (ever) want to pursue? What are they?
> [If children are desired, can you have children, as far as you know? Any known genetic/other issues?]
> What are your views on birth control, and related issues?
> Have you been sexually abused? Explain. If so, have you been treated for this?
> Have you been physically, verbally, or emotionally abused? Explain. If so, have you been treated for this?
> Have you ever abused someone else in any of these ways? Explain.
> Were you raised with any strong social or religious views, or forced to behave in accordance with same?
> How would you rank your sex drive several years into a long term relationship: low, medium, high? If you have not had any long relationships, try to project based on what you know about yourself.
> Do you have any expectations for sexual frequency, initiation, and range of activities? Any aversions? Any problems or issues with performance?
> What are your primary sexual turn-offs? Turn-ons?
> [Discuss the factors contributing to each person’s sex drive.]
> Do you use any illegal drugs, or improperly use any prescription drugs? Explain.
> Do you abuse alcohol, and is there any history or alcoholism or abuse in your family? Any addictions?
> Have you ever smoked tobacco or other drugs, and do you now smoke or use other drugs in any form?
> Do you have any illnesses, physical or mental? If so, what are they, are they acute or chronic, and what are the treatments? Has your weight or fitness level been significantly different in the past?
> Is there any history of physical or mental illness in your family? Explain.
> Have you been previously married? Do you have any children? Do you want [more] children? Explain.
> Are you still in love with or nostalgic about anyone from a past relationship? Are you still in contact? If so, who, where are they located, and how will you handle this?
> Are you in any way settling or compromising for this relationship? Do you have reservations? Explain.
> Do you have any problems committing to a relationship, and observing agreed-to boundaries? Explain.
> Have you cheated on any past partner? Have you started another relationship before ending a prior?
> Do you have any unconventional views on love, sex, or relationships? Explain. Do any of these affect the kind of relationship you want or need, and in what ways?
> What constitutes unacceptable behavior regarding flirting, porn, OSFs, etc.?
> Summarize for each other, and discuss: philosophical, political, social, sexual, and religious views.
> How much debt do you have, and what is it for? What is your ability to pay it? What is your credit rating? Do you have any savings or assets? Are you saving for retirement, education, or a home?
> Discuss mutual saving and spending and priorities for each. Education? Home? Cars? Travel? Etc.
> What are your life, career, personal, and family goals? How and when do you plan to achieve them?
> Describe some key life experiences that have shaped your views and goals.
> What makes you feel loved and cared for?
> What is your personality type (suggest using Myers-Briggs)? Do we have compatible communication styles?


Wow! I've been with my husband for 20 years and I don't know the answers to all of these questions.


----------



## jld

wild jade said:


> Wow! I've been with my husband for 20 years and I don't know the answers to all of these questions.


Better get going, jade!


----------



## Married but Happy

wild jade said:


> Wow! I've been with my husband for 20 years and I don't know the answers to all of these questions.


We knew almost all of these things about each other before we moved in together, after about a year of dating. We were very confident that we were compatible and didn't have any significant land mines in our future. Most of this stuff is what I used to screen for serious relationship potential in the first few months of dating someone. Other stuff took more time (up to 2 years or more) - because it's based mostly on experience, not on discussion.

After making a poor choice of partners in my first marriage, I did a lot of research and reflection, and figured out what I needed and what mattered to me for any future relationship. Apparently, it worked! And I avoided a lot of poor and marginal potential relationships along the way.


----------



## jld

I told my husband everything I could think of that might make him not want to be with me right away, within 48 hours of the beginning of the relationship. Would have been sooner if I had not been called away for a death in the family.

If I were going to be rejected because of anything in my past, I wanted it to happen right away, and not waste my or his time, and minimize any pain.


----------



## Middle of Everything

alexm said:


> The long term effects of this type of behaviour can last well into adulthood and beyond. I'm fairly certain that my wife, for example, feels like she was taken advantage of, despite being a willing participant at all times. Because she was willing, she can't blame _them_, so she blames herself. And as a result, she ensures, to this day, that she is not "available" sexually to me, her husband. She subconsciously does not make herself vulnerable. I'm certain of this.


Interesting. I can definitely see that. If one never deals with those feelings it can stay with you for a long time indeed. 

I think Im a little better off than you here. I too think my wife was taken advantage of by guys with long term girlfriends who had no intentions of leaving them. Just a way to get their rocks off on the side. While I never point blank have said this to my wife or asked her, I think she ignores this fact and buries her head in the sand on this as to not feel used or taken advantage of. Self preservation of the old ego i think. So while we have experienced some ramifications of this in our sexual relationship over the years, I think my wife sounds more sexual available and over the years more and more vulnerable.


----------



## MJJEAN

wild jade said:


> Wow! I've been with my husband for 20 years and I don't know the answers to all of these questions.


Really? Wow. I knew the answers to those questions within 3 months of meeting DH. We sat and talked for hours about...well, everything. The only questions in the list he couldn't answer relate to long term relationships as he'd only been in a couple relationships before me and those were only 6 months and 1.5 years, respectively. Clearly, after 20 years, your relationship has worked for you two, but I couldn't imagine marrying someone if I didn't know the answer to those questions...and more!


----------



## jld

As much as I believe in transparency in marriage, I think it needs to be voluntary transparency. Forcing transparency would surely harm the level of trust, at least for me.


----------



## MJJEAN

jld said:


> As much as I believe in transparency in marriage, I think it needs to be voluntary transparency. Forcing transparency would surely harm the level of trust, at least for me.


Another compatibility issue. If you're a transparency person, find another transparency person as a mate. If you're a privacy person, find another privacy person.

I have noticed, though, that those "privacy people" tend to make a lot of assumptions about what their partner would and would not do, don't ask because they "know" their partner "would never...", then scream the longest and loudest when they find out something they don't like from their partners past.


----------



## Married but Happy

jld said:


> Very good list, MbH.
> 
> I would add, "_What do you think of spying on a partner? As in, placing a VAR in their car, secretly monitoring their phone/computer activity, hiring a PI to follow them if you have suspicions, etc.? What role do you think privacy in marriage has, if any?_"


I believe in a right to privacy, even in marriage. And you always have the right to keep your thoughts private. However, if there is suspicious behavior, or a change in habits that is typical in cheating scenarios or breaks an agreement that's been negotiated, I think it's justified to snoop to protect oneself from harm, and perhaps even prevent something from happening, or correct something that may be contributing to such changes. You do need to use careful judgment to avoid overstepping bounds, especially when nothing wrong is found.

As it is, we leave our email up and open, have no issues with each other reading our mail, and we share one cell phone, so any calls or messages are readily available to us both. Also, since our relationship is poly/open, and we can easily talk about having sex or even a relationship with someone else if we want to, it would take extraordinary circumstances for either of us to want to circumvent that. Why mess with something that works, when you can readily get permission to do what you want in most cases, anyway? This has worked for us for 17 years without any significant problems.


----------



## lifeistooshort

I agree with the mindset of sharing things that impact your partner.

Beyond that I think that one should share what they're willing to share after it's been requested.

I'm sure I'm somewhat biased by the fact that my husband has engaged in a lot of oversharing at ridiculously inappropriate times while making comments that make think he doesn't really want me to share anything.

In that sense motive matters, so before you either request information or offer it be clear on what you hope to accomplish by sharing. 

And when you do start sharing, watch your partners reaction. If the information is not regarding something that impacts them and thus they really need to know, stop talking if they are clearly uncomfortable.


----------



## Thor

Quality said:


> I just wonder....is Vladdy right? Is it "none of their business" and/or does it lead to "incriminating" oneself, depreciating the marital relationship {or soon to be marriage}, and risk 'happiness"???
> 
> OR,
> 
> Does it hurt the marital relationship by depriving it of intimacy and making it a little more risky? Aren't secrets intimacy killers?
> 
> Does knowing someone's ugly past actually depreciate the relationship or enhance it?
> .
> .
> .
> What do you think about historical honesty?


Interesting that you call it "historical honesty", as if the alternate is "historical lies". In my very strong opinion, _honesty_ is an absolute requirement, at what ever level of detail is wanted.

I was certainly hurt by my now ex-w who lied and omitted about her sexual history. Had I known the truth when we were dating, I never would have continued the relationship. Had I known the truth when marital problems started up early in the marriage, I would have either left the marriage or had knowledge which would have enabled effective corrections.

Having an accurate understanding of a person's sexual history is necessary to judge whether there is a good long term match. Some acts are a deal breaker for each of us, and we deserve to know the truth if those things are there. Some things may make us uncomfortable about a person's past but aren't by themselves a deal breaker. But in combination with other things might tip the scales. In discussing a person's sexual history we might discover a deeper connection, or we might ourselves grow in some way.

Sexual history is not only sexual in content, but also relationship related. A person's relationship history is important in order to judge whether we are a good long term match. Their sexual history is an important part of their relationship history.

It is wrong to intentionally let your partner be misled, either through intentional lies or through intentional omission, because it takes away that person's ability to make their own decisions.

Can "NOYB" be a valid answer? I think yes, but it is possibly hazardous. One can presume the "worst case" exists under NOYB. Might this result in leaving the relationship when the worst case actually is not there? Or, probably more likely, the person assumes it is not nearly the worst case and stays in the relationship, but finds the unanswered questions a nagging problem in the relationship.

I do believe deeper intimacy is possible when we know all about our partner, warts and all.

We all know that exes are a serious threat to relationships. Not knowing who the exes are, and not being informed of being in the presence of an ex, provides a lot of opportunity for infidelity. I also believe it is disrespectful to a partner to not inform them when an ex is within the social or professional circle.


----------



## james5588

Middle of Everything said:


> alexm said:
> 
> 
> 
> The long term effects of this type of behaviour can last well into adulthood and beyond. I'm fairly certain that my wife, for example, feels like she was taken advantage of, despite being a willing participant at all times. Because she was willing, she can't blame _them_, so she blames herself. And as a result, she ensures, to this day, that she is not "available" sexually to me, her husband. She subconsciously does not make herself vulnerable. I'm certain of this.
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting. I can definitely see that. If one never deals with those feelings it can stay with you for a long time indeed.
> 
> I think Im a little better off than you here. I too think my wife was taken advantage of by guys with long term girlfriends who had no intentions of leaving them. Just a way to get their rocks off on the side. While I never point blank have said this to my wife or asked her, I think she ignores this fact and buries her head in the sand on this as to not feel used or taken advantage of. Self preservation of the old ego i think. So while we have experienced some ramifications of this in our sexual relationship over the years, I think my wife sounds more sexual available and over the years more and more vulnerable.
Click to expand...

Again, the devil is in the details. I think that I could say the exact same thing, very similar narratives...

HOWEVER, in may case, I would be an absolute fool not to consider the possibility (accept the fact) that she actually pursued guys who were in LTRs and even engaged guys. Why? How knows - maybe the more the committed he is the bigger the compliment? The thrill of the secret? I hate thinking that way. I hate having to think that way even more...

Definitely would have run the other way. If this is where I currently need to go to 'understand' her, NO THANK YOU!


I think that sometimes people may see in others what they THINK they want or even what they HOPE to become, but sadly don't and won't. In cases where one if the couple lacks the self-awareness to admit what they require in order to have their needs met, 'historical honesty' will at least serve to enable the other to make a good decision for both...


----------



## alexm

james5588 said:


> Again, the devil is in the details. I think that I could say the exact same thing, very similar narratives...
> 
> HOWEVER, in may case, I would be an absolute fool not to consider the possibility (accept the fact) that she actually pursued guys who were in LTRs and even engaged guys. Why? How knows - maybe the more the committed he is the bigger the compliment? The thrill of the secret? I hate thinking that way. I hate having to think that way even more...
> 
> *Definitely would have run the other way.* If this is where I currently need to go to 'understand' her, NO THANK YOU!
> 
> 
> I think that sometimes people may see in others what they THINK they want or even what they HOPE to become, but sadly don't and won't. In cases where one if the couple lacks the self-awareness to admit what they require in order to have their needs met, 'historical honesty' will at least serve to enable the other to make a good decision for both...


See, this is where I differ from many here, I think. I'm sure I'm not alone, but possibly in the minority.

For me, I genuinely wouldn't care about my partners past. It's whether or not they own it and HOW they own it that actually matters to me.

Some people say the past doesn't matter. Some say it matters a great deal. The real answer (IMHO) is that the actions don't matter, the results of them do, and how that does, or could, impact your relationship.


----------



## alexm

Middle of Everything said:


> I think Im a little better off than you here. I too think my wife was taken advantage of by guys with long term girlfriends who had no intentions of leaving them. Just a way to get their rocks off on the side. While I never point blank have said this to my wife or asked her, I think she ignores this fact and buries her head in the sand on this as to not feel used or taken advantage of. Self preservation of the old ego i think. So while we have experienced some ramifications of this in our sexual relationship over the years, I think my wife sounds more sexual available and over the years more and more vulnerable.


But was she taking advantage of them, just as much as they were her? If she wasn't forced into doing anything and she was a willing participant, then she would have been getting something out of it, as well.

And that's exactly what I said to my stepson - be mindful of _why_ you're having sex, and why your partner is having sex with _you_.

In this day and age (or any, really) it's extremely easy for a woman, especially, to feel shame about this sort of thing. Even when you reach a point that you can chalk it up to emotional immaturity, it can still linger in many cases. Some people have the capacity to "own" it, others do not. When you do not, it'll almost assuredly impact any relationship you have going forward.


----------



## Not

alexm said:


> See, this is where I differ from many here, I think. I'm sure I'm not alone, but possibly in the minority.
> 
> For me, I genuinely wouldn't care about my partners past. It's whether or not they own it and HOW they own it that actually matters to me.
> 
> Some people say the past doesn't matter. Some say it matters a great deal. The real answer (IMHO) is that the actions don't matter, the results of them do, and how that does, or could, impact your relationship.


I like what you've said here but at the same time isn't a persons choices and/or actions a reflection of what they are? The kind of person they are? I'm not talking about decisions someone made when they were a horny 16 year old but of decisions made during a time of life when personality type and moral standards are pretty much set.


----------



## Not

double post - sorry


----------



## james5588

Not said:


> I like what you've said here but at the same time isn't a persons choices and/or actions a reflection of what they are? The kind of person they are? I'm not talking about decisions someone made when they were a horny 16 year old but of decisions made during a time of life when personality type and moral standards are pretty much set.


I agree and would go even further. I totally get 'past is the past' so long as it is truly behind someone (the whole "once when i was young, i...."). But stuff can also linger. Old habits, needs, wants, may not just 'go away' with age.

To add to your point, even taking the moral standard part out of the equation, no judging, no looking down at someone's choices, some people are what they are. Some are oil, others unfortunately are water.


----------



## Hope1964

Not said:


> I like what you've said here but at the same time isn't a persons choices and/or actions a reflection of what they are? The kind of person they are? I'm not talking about decisions someone made when they were a horny 16 year old but of decisions made during a time of life when personality type and moral standards are pretty much set.


I agree, but I also think people can change and grow. So for me, it would depend WHEN they made the choices as well.


----------



## Thor

Quality said:


> These are just good habits that people practice in long term successful marriages. I was just giving a "for instance" and, in particular, if that spouse had been wayward, he/she shouldn't spend more than a couple seconds "catching up" with any old lover.





She'sStillGotIt said:


> You can't be serious.
> 
> It sounds like a parent coaching a child about 'stranger danger.'





Quality said:


> Why do we need "best practices" and to behave like other couples that have achieved successful long term marriages?


In the airline biz we have what is known as the *Threat Error Model*. There are threats everywhere all the time. Some we can predict, some are surprises. When a threat materializes as real, we can deal with it correctly or we can make an error. When we make an error, we end up in an _Undesired State_. We brief potential threats several times per flight, and discuss how to mitigate them.

Obviously if we fly into that highly active thunderstorm we made an error in dealing with a threat, resulting in an undesired state! We can mitigate the threat by turning on the radar if we are not in clear skies, and we apply good practices by flying around any thunderstorms we see with our eyes or via radar. Threats can be simply public relations, such as videos on YouTube (accurate or not), which suggest a mitigation strategy of being thoughtful before doing/saying something which could cause hard feelings with customers (or the boss, or the FAA, etc).

In relationships we have all kinds of threats. Exes are a well documented threat. Any conscious actions to limit contact with exes and to keep full transparency with our spouse regarding exes is a preventive measure, like turning on the radar. The threat isn't just the potential for feelings to come back for our ex, but for our spouse to feel blindsided if they find out we've had contact which they didn't know about as in Quality's example. So, failure to have full transparency (i.e. informing our spouse when we run into a former lover) is an error in dealing with a threat.

I personally don't see the need for the immediate phone call, but I do think notification of the spouse is a good idea. It helps with "Walls around the relationship, windows within the relationship", which comes from the book Not Just Friends iirc.


----------



## wild jade

MJJEAN said:


> Really? Wow. I knew the answers to those questions within 3 months of meeting DH. We sat and talked for hours about...well, everything. The only questions in the list he couldn't answer relate to long term relationships as he'd only been in a couple relationships before me and those were only 6 months and 1.5 years, respectively. Clearly, after 20 years, your relationship has worked for you two, but I couldn't imagine marrying someone if I didn't know the answer to those questions...and more!


Oh, I know things that aren't on that list. LOL. But there's lots of things there that I've never bothered to ask, and while I might guess at the answer, don't know for sure. And there's at least one item on the list that he would have answered one way 20 years ago that absolutely wouldn't be true today. People change.

I dunno. I feel pretty satisfied with my knowledge of my h. And if there's things I don't know? Well, at least he still has some stories in him that I haven't heard before. :grin2:

ETA: I would add that he also doesn't know many of those things about me either, and has never asked. We don't leave our email up for each other to read, and don't account for each other's whereabouts at all times. I guess we're privacy people.


----------



## MJJEAN

wild jade said:


> Oh, I know things that aren't on that list. LOL. But there's lots of things there that I've never bothered to ask, and while I might guess at the answer, don't know for sure. And there's at least one item on the list that he would have answered one way 20 years ago that absolutely wouldn't be true today. People change.
> 
> I dunno. I feel pretty satisfied with my knowledge of my h. And if there's things I don't know? Well, at least he still has some stories in him that I haven't heard before. :grin2:
> 
> ETA: I would add that he also doesn't know many of those things about me either, and has never asked. We don't leave our email up for each other to read, and don't account for each other's whereabouts at all times. I guess we're privacy people.


At least you'll have something to talk about when you're retired and not much new is going on. Of course, by then, you both might be too old to remember anything!! :laugh:


----------



## alexm

Not said:


> I like what you've said here but at the same time isn't a persons choices and/or actions a reflection of what they *are*? The kind of person they are? I'm not talking about decisions someone made when they were a horny 16 year old but of decisions made during a time of life when personality type and moral standards are pretty much set.


"Were", IMO.

I'm not the guy I was 8 years ago, 15 years ago, or 20 years ago. I've learned lessons, made mistakes, have regrets, a litany of stupid **** that I did and lots of burned bridges. We all have things we wish we could take back or re-do or erase altogether.

The things I did in those days made me who I am, they are not a _reflection_ of who I am.


----------



## MAJDEATH

Rule of 3


----------



## MAJDEATH

As I have told my W, to me it is a much greater transgression to lie about a situation than the actual situation itself. If she messes up and crosses a boundary with some guy and kisses him (for example), I'm not gonna like it. I will be angry but we will work thru it because that's real life in a LTR. 

But if she doesn't come clean the next day and tell me about it, and I hear about it a month later from someone else, I'm gonna be really mad. Much more so than the confession of the act. Not to mention that the guy thinks he got away with something that needs to be addressed immediately.


----------



## MAJDEATH

Hope1964 said:


> I agree, but I also think people can change and grow. So for me, it would depend WHEN they made the choices as well.


Agreed! If she was a panty-dropper as a teenager that is much different than at 30 yrs old.


----------



## Personal

MAJDEATH said:


> As I have told my W, to me it is a much greater transgression to lie about a situation than the actual situation itself. If she messes up and crosses a boundary with some guy and kisses him (for example), I'm not gonna like it. I will be angry but we will work thru it because that's real life in a LTR.
> 
> But if she doesn't come clean the next day and tell me about it, and I hear about it a month later from someone else, I'm gonna be really mad. Much more so than the confession of the act. Not to mention that the guy thinks he got away with something that needs to be addressed immediately.


Do you realise your approach as related above encourages your wife to behave as she does. Your problem isn't the other men, it's actually your wife and your acquiescence.


----------



## zookeeper

MAJDEATH said:


> If she messes up and crosses a boundary with some guy and kisses him (for example), I'm not gonna like it. I will be angry but we will work thru it because that's real life in a LTR.


No. It's not. Unless you are in a relationship with someone of poor character. 

If you accept such abhorrent behavior as "normal" it becomes normal.


----------



## Quality

Married but Happy said:


> I'll add that honesty/completeness about the past is risky. So many people still have a double standard when it comes to women's sexuality vs. men's, so women will often be judged more harshly and unfairly because of this bias. Just as no one has the right to know my thoughts, they don't have the right to know my past. I may choose to share either with them, but it is not required (unless - as I said - my past can materially and negatively affect them in our future).


I would say if there is anywhere or anyplace in the world where it's OK to be biased it's when one is choosing their own marital partner.

If a man wants to marry a less inexperienced woman or even a virgin despite not being one himself, that's kind of his choice and the girl he's dating isn't entitled to lie about her past because he's a hypocrite with a double standard.

Double standards work both ways too. 30 year old virgin men aren't generally in high demand, but if that was something women held up as important and valuable to them when choosing a mate there'd probably be a few more of them.


----------



## Quality

Andy1001 said:


> When I met my girlfriend I was one of those guys who are hated on tam,constant one night stands and short term relationships.I had never "fell" for any woman and didn't really understand the concept of long term relationships,or love for that matter.I had spent years traveling the world, staying at the best hotels and I had the ability to pick up women effortlessly it seemed.
> Then in the space of one weekend my best friends and long term roommates (Two gay girls) moved out and both my parents died.
> Basically I was lost and I decided to move to a new apartment while getting a house built.Very early one morning I was out walking and there was a new business,a gym getting ready to open and there was a girl cleaning the windows.She turned and looked at me and I swear it was like a physical punch to the gut,she was the most beautiful woman I had ever seen and I fell in love immediately.I spent months courting her before she agreed to be my girlfriend and for most of the time since we have being very happy.We had a problem last year but that has been sorted out.
> I will never tell her how many women I have slept with(I don't actually know myself but it is in the hundreds) and told her I don't want to know how many previous partners she has had.In my opinion the most important thing is I have been faithful to her from the day we met.
> I can't change my past,nor do I want to but I don't want to discuss it with the woman I love either.
> Sometimes your private life should remain that way.



Of all the posts on this thread THIS ONE, to me, struck me as the most dangerous. 

If you value your relationship with "the woman you love" so much you should actually share the truth with her and let her know the real you, warts and all not only as means of furthering intimacy with her but also as a way to band together to protect your marriage from the consequences of your prior risky habitual sexual behavior. 

Monogamous marriage is quite a different lifestyle and kick that can down the road a piece ~ throw in some kids, a mortgage and MISERABLE trips to Disneyland and the risk of you seeking another "release" and boost to your ego while off alone somewhere on a business trip or while your wife is visiting family with the kids can become quite tempting. If we were "coaching" a couple like you and your wife {and you told me/us about your past} we would not only be suggesting that you never spend the night apart from one another {another good marital habit} but we'd be hammering that point home with you two and stressing the need for strict accountability should it just have to occur.

Bedding 100's of women around the world almost effortlessly as a single man is a skillset. The fact you didn't form attachments well or easily {until the one exception} is indicative of a pathology {not labeling you "pathological" - but it is/was a pretty unhealthy thing to do}. Marriage doesn't always boost your ego or provide the admiration and false pride a guy feels in those moments of seeming conquest and false machismo. With you keeping such history from your wife you are making it even MORE dirty and seductive and, frankly, something you will be more likely to do behind her back.

Telling your wife your deviant sexual history {even if you don't really consider it deviant ~ she gets to decide her opinion of it and choose to protect herself or not} releases your shame about it and takes it's allure away. Whereas, maintaining the secret keeps the past as your present and, at least internally, you remain that womanizing objectifying weaker man underneath. 

You can never avoid the consequences of your behavior by keeping them a secret. Consequences just are and one of those consequences is you are much more likely than the average husband to fall back upon old habits and uncaringly/unemotionally "bed" a woman or women, as you say, effortlessly, when temptation occurs. Instead of waiting and hoping to avoid such risks if and when they arise, why not be a little bit more proactive and just avoid temptation and ever putting yourself in a situation where you may be tested with the understanding and help of your wife?

Consider this ~~ why do you maintain the secret? Are you ashamed of it or afraid your wife won't understand or like it? Why give your past so much power over today and your future? Make it who you were, not who you are. 

I'm kind of getting interrupted here and coming back to this post now so I apologize if its disjointed but I also wanted to say that this isn't a precaution meaning your wife has to police you because you are completely incapable of managing your genitals yourself. Instead, sharing such history and discussing it's ramifications and potential consequences and risks upon your most treasured relationship IS, in itself, true trust & intimacy building behavior. The simple act of acknowledging and considering risk ~~ lowers risk. The alternative is simply hope and faith and these infidelity forums are chalk full of waywards that didn't think they'd ever cheat or need to ever take precautions too. Hope won't protect your marriage ~~ honesty, accountability and intimacy will. 

Finally, maybe you {or other men} don't tell because they simply don't want to raise alarm bells and the potential for heightened scrutiny later on. The problem in such instance isn't shame, but rather, lack of shame. You don't think the deviant behavior was bad or wrong but you fear your wife won't see it the same way and she MAY just want to cramp your style in the future. Maybe she won't "let" you go to a bachelor party in Vegas with your buddies or take that one month out of town assignment at work. However, please notice who exactly here is putting their spouse in the position of the parent here. Plus, it's further objectification of women only this time the woman is your wife who you are deciding to lie to and cover up the risks to her marriage that she should be aware of and, with you, together plan to minimize. Ostensibly, you do this because you don't think she can handle the truth, but you lie to yourself and delude yourself it's your private life and none of her business. In this instance, a man with your sexual history should never go to a Vegas bachelor party or month long work trip alone {not saying you're planning to, it's a for instance}. Your sexual impulse control was weak in the past so it's foolish to even test it ~ EVER. 

Of course, if monogamy isn't important to you {and her} and maintaining a private life so you can sneak around and do what you want is, then why get married. Share your life with your wife and she may just surprise you.


----------



## aine

Historical honesty is very important imo.
My H was pretty experienced, not me, I was very niave. However, knowing who , what, when etc is useful information for the future.


----------



## MAJDEATH

I would hate to have someone in our circle of friends and acquaintances who had been intimate with my spouse and I didn't know it. It is a direct threat to our marriage and the boundaries we have set.


----------



## *Deidre*

I think that knowing one's past (not every detail) is important because you know who you're getting into a relationship with. Not everyone will be accepting of someone's past, and that doesn't make that person ''wrong.'' Nor does it make the person with the past ''wrong.'' It just means that the two people might not be compatible based on how they've lived their lives up to that point, etc.

But, there are people who have a lot of sexual partners in the past, who make faithful spouses, and a lot of people who were virgins when they married, who make horrible spouses, and end up cheating. I don't think your past tells the entire picture of who you are and who you may become, in a marriage.


----------



## Faithful Wife

I have a very colorful sexual history and it's important to me that any potential partner knows about it and accepts me. So I tell them about the things I know might cause some people to be alarmed. I won't date anyone further if they are going to judge me or have retroactive jealousy.

I am open to hearing about their sexual past too and things that are relevant to a future sex life with me and them.

I do not tell details that are totally irrelevant and I hope not to hear those details from a prospective lover, either.

I want to be with someone who has made choices I can respect and who can respect mine.


----------



## CharlieParker

*Deidre* said:


> But, there are people who have a lot of sexual partners in the past, who make faithful spouses, and a lot of people who were virgins when they married, who make horrible spouses, and end up cheating. I don't think your past tells the entire picture of who you are and who you may become, in a marriage.


My wife had lots of partners and has said that when in a committed relationship she was always faithful but did get cheated upon more than once (hmm, I don't know the exact number, but it's ok). 

She was my first and we talked about it early on and both worried that I'd stray at around 40 to 45. She actually gave me a hall pass. I'm pushing 50 and made her take it back.


----------



## *Deidre*

CharlieParker said:


> My wife had lots of partners and has said that when in a committed relationship she was always faithful but did get cheated upon more than once (hmm, I don't know the exact number, but it's ok).
> 
> She was my first and we talked about it early on and both worried that I'd stray at around 40 to 45. She actually gave me a hall pass. I'm pushing 50 and made her take it back.


lol @ ''hall pass" 

Well, there you go. My point proven.


----------



## MAJDEATH

*Deidre* said:


> lol @ ''hall pass"
> 
> Well, there you go. My point proven.


Hall passes, like open marriages, seem to work much better for the woman than the man.


----------



## *Deidre*

MAJDEATH said:


> Hall passes, like open marriages, seem to work much better for the woman than the man.


What do you mean by ''better?'' 

I wouldn't want to sleep with other men, it's just not me. (I never did that when dating (sleep with more than the guy I'd be in a relationship with), so doing that AFTER marriage, doesn't seem to make sense to me lol) 

But, as long as both spouses are okay with the open marriage arrangement, then it could work. I have read too many stories though where one spouse seems to be more interested in it than the other, and so the open marriage exists, but one spouse is hurt over it. :frown2:

(I hope things are better for you, MAJDEATH.  I remember your posts.)


----------



## MAJDEATH

*Deidre* said:


> What do you mean by ''better?''
> 
> I wouldn't want to sleep with other men, it's just not me. (I never did that when dating (sleep with more than the guy I'd be in a relationship with), so doing that AFTER marriage, doesn't seem to make sense to me lol)
> 
> But, as long as both spouses are okay with the open marriage arrangement, then it could work. I have read too many stories though where one spouse seems to be more interested in it than the other, and so the open marriage exists, but one spouse is hurt over it. :frown2:
> 
> (I hope things are better for you, MAJDEATH.  I remember your posts.)


Things are much better in our marriage, thanks for asking Deidre. 

What I meant was almost all of the open marriages I have heard of seem to favor the woman finding willing partners, but the guys not so much, especially in the 50s-60s range. I guess when the women explain they're in an open marriage, the men totally believe them and are ready to move forward. When the guy says it, the women are like "yeah, sure you are, married guy".


----------



## lifeistooshort

I'd read somewhere that most open marriages are suggested by men wth tunnel vision..... all they can think of is getting to screw other women. 

But it doesn't occur to them that their wife will probably get a lot more action because it's so easy for women to find partners.

Once he realizes it the wife often either doesn't want to stop or doesn't want him anymore.

I don't remember where I saw it so won't claim it's credible.


----------



## VladDracul

Bottom line is if you need other sex partners, why get married. If you merely need companionship, get a dog.


----------



## Andy1001

Quality said:


> Of all the posts on this thread THIS ONE, to me, struck me as the most dangerous.
> 
> If you value your relationship with "the woman you love" so much you should actually share the truth with her and let her know the real you, warts and all not only as means of furthering intimacy with her but also as a way to band together to protect your marriage from the consequences of your prior risky habitual sexual behavior.
> 
> Monogamous marriage is quite a different lifestyle and kick that can down the road a piece ~ throw in some kids, a mortgage and MISERABLE trips to Disneyland and the risk of you seeking another "release" and boost to your ego while off alone somewhere on a business trip or while your wife is visiting family with the kids can become quite tempting. If we were "coaching" a couple like you and your wife {and you told me/us about your past} we would not only be suggesting that you never spend the night apart from one another {another good marital habit} but we'd be hammering that point home with you two and stressing the need for strict accountability should it just have to occur.
> 
> Bedding 100's of women around the world almost effortlessly as a single man is a skillset. The fact you didn't form attachments well or easily {until the one exception} is indicative of a pathology {not labeling you "pathological" - but it is/was a pretty unhealthy thing to do}. Marriage doesn't always boost your ego or provide the admiration and false pride a guy feels in those moments of seeming conquest and false machismo. With you keeping such history from your wife you are making it even MORE dirty and seductive and, frankly, something you will be more likely to do behind her back.
> 
> Telling your wife your deviant sexual history {even if you don't really consider it deviant ~ she gets to decide her opinion of it and choose to protect herself or not} releases your shame about it and takes it's allure away. Whereas, maintaining the secret keeps the past as your present and, at least internally, you remain that womanizing objectifying weaker man underneath.
> 
> You can never avoid the consequences of your behavior by keeping them a secret. Consequences just are and one of those consequences is you are much more likely than the average husband to fall back upon old habits and uncaringly/unemotionally "bed" a woman or women, as you say, effortlessly, when temptation occurs. Instead of waiting and hoping to avoid such risks if and when they arise, why not be a little bit more proactive and just avoid temptation and ever putting yourself in a situation where you may be tested with the understanding and help of your wife?
> 
> Consider this ~~ why do you maintain the secret? Are you ashamed of it or afraid your wife won't understand or like it? Why give your past so much power over today and your future? Make it who you were, not who you are.
> 
> I'm kind of getting interrupted here and coming back to this post now so I apologize if its disjointed but I also wanted to say that this isn't a precaution meaning your wife has to police you because you are completely incapable of managing your genitals yourself. Instead, sharing such history and discussing it's ramifications and potential consequences and risks upon your most treasured relationship IS, in itself, true trust & intimacy building behavior. The simple act of acknowledging and considering risk ~~ lowers risk. The alternative is simply hope and faith and these infidelity forums are chalk full of waywards that didn't think they'd ever cheat or need to ever take precautions too. Hope won't protect your marriage ~~ honesty, accountability and intimacy will.
> 
> Finally, maybe you {or other men} don't tell because they simply don't want to raise alarm bells and the potential for heightened scrutiny later on. The problem in such instance isn't shame, but rather, lack of shame. You don't think the deviant behavior was bad or wrong but you fear your wife won't see it the same way and she MAY just want to cramp your style in the future. Maybe she won't "let" you go to a bachelor party in Vegas with your buddies or take that one month out of town assignment at work. However, please notice who exactly here is putting their spouse in the position of the parent here. Plus, it's further objectification of women only this time the woman is your wife who you are deciding to lie to and cover up the risks to her marriage that she should be aware of and, with you, together plan to minimize. Ostensibly, you do this because you don't think she can handle the truth, but you lie to yourself and delude yourself it's your private life and none of her business. In this instance, a man with your sexual history should never go to a Vegas bachelor party or month long work trip alone {not saying you're planning to, it's a for instance}. Your sexual impulse control was weak in the past so it's foolish to even test it ~ EVER.
> 
> Of course, if monogamy isn't important to you {and her} and maintaining a private life so you can sneak around and do what you want is, then why get married. Share your life with your wife and she may just surprise you.


I have given some thought to this post and I feel there are some things I should clarify.
The first point is I'm not married and never have been.I have been with my girlfriend for six years.We split up last year for almost three months,cancelling our wedding but it had nothing to do with infidelity on either of our parts.We have since got back together and have a baby.
You point about traveling alone, while well thought out and well meaning no doubt,is all encompassing and I feel does not correlate with how I behave.For about the first four years of our relationship I traveled to Europe about three times a month,sometimes more.I never cheated.I still travel regularly and I love it when my girlfriend comes with me.In fact we are all going to Holland at the weekend.
My gf knows I have had a lot of partners,she just doesn't know the numbers involved.Since the day we met I have never behaved inappropriately with another woman.(Or man)
I don't need parenting,if I wanted to cheat I could and I get plenty of offers.
To be honest until you started this thread I hadn't thought about this subject for a long time.It isn't a fear of my girlfriend not accepting my past it's more a reluctance to try and justify it on my part.
I agree it was a huge ego boost to look around a lounge or a bar and feel I could have any woman I chose.It didn't always pan out that way but it usually did.
As regards flirting with other women or them flirting with me this is one subject which for years wasn't a problem and then it was.My girlfriend thought it was hilarious that so many waitresses or barmaids or even shop assistants would write their phone number on my receipt before passing it to me.Then she seemed to suddenly take offence at it but she would fight with me,not the other women.I don't know what I can do about this though but she seems to have gotten over it again.
Thank you for taking the time to advise me.


----------



## zookeeper

Quality said:


> Of all the posts on this thread THIS ONE, to me, struck me as the most dangerous.
> 
> If you value your relationship with "the woman you love" so much you should actually share the truth with her and let her know the real you, warts and all not only as means of furthering intimacy with her but also as a way to band together to protect your marriage from the consequences of your prior risky habitual sexual behavior.
> 
> Monogamous marriage is quite a different lifestyle and kick that can down the road a piece ~ throw in some kids, a mortgage and MISERABLE trips to Disneyland and the risk of you seeking another "release" and boost to your ego while off alone somewhere on a business trip or while your wife is visiting family with the kids can become quite tempting. If we were "coaching" a couple like you and your wife {and you told me/us about your past} we would not only be suggesting that you never spend the night apart from one another {another good marital habit} but we'd be hammering that point home with you two and stressing the need for strict accountability should it just have to occur.
> 
> Bedding 100's of women around the world almost effortlessly as a single man is a skillset. The fact you didn't form attachments well or easily {until the one exception} is indicative of a pathology {not labeling you "pathological" - but it is/was a pretty unhealthy thing to do}. Marriage doesn't always boost your ego or provide the admiration and false pride a guy feels in those moments of seeming conquest and false machismo. With you keeping such history from your wife you are making it even MORE dirty and seductive and, frankly, something you will be more likely to do behind her back.
> 
> Telling your wife your deviant sexual history {even if you don't really consider it deviant ~ she gets to decide her opinion of it and choose to protect herself or not} releases your shame about it and takes it's allure away. Whereas, maintaining the secret keeps the past as your present and, at least internally, you remain that womanizing objectifying weaker man underneath.
> 
> You can never avoid the consequences of your behavior by keeping them a secret. Consequences just are and one of those consequences is you are much more likely than the average husband to fall back upon old habits and uncaringly/unemotionally "bed" a woman or women, as you say, effortlessly, when temptation occurs. Instead of waiting and hoping to avoid such risks if and when they arise, why not be a little bit more proactive and just avoid temptation and ever putting yourself in a situation where you may be tested with the understanding and help of your wife?
> 
> Consider this ~~ why do you maintain the secret? Are you ashamed of it or afraid your wife won't understand or like it? Why give your past so much power over today and your future? Make it who you were, not who you are.
> 
> I'm kind of getting interrupted here and coming back to this post now so I apologize if its disjointed but I also wanted to say that this isn't a precaution meaning your wife has to police you because you are completely incapable of managing your genitals yourself. Instead, sharing such history and discussing it's ramifications and potential consequences and risks upon your most treasured relationship IS, in itself, true trust & intimacy building behavior. The simple act of acknowledging and considering risk ~~ lowers risk. The alternative is simply hope and faith and these infidelity forums are chalk full of waywards that didn't think they'd ever cheat or need to ever take precautions too. Hope won't protect your marriage ~~ honesty, accountability and intimacy will.
> 
> Finally, maybe you {or other men} don't tell because they simply don't want to raise alarm bells and the potential for heightened scrutiny later on. The problem in such instance isn't shame, but rather, lack of shame. You don't think the deviant behavior was bad or wrong but you fear your wife won't see it the same way and she MAY just want to cramp your style in the future. Maybe she won't "let" you go to a bachelor party in Vegas with your buddies or take that one month out of town assignment at work. However, please notice who exactly here is putting their spouse in the position of the parent here. Plus, it's further objectification of women only this time the woman is your wife who you are deciding to lie to and cover up the risks to her marriage that she should be aware of and, with you, together plan to minimize. Ostensibly, you do this because you don't think she can handle the truth, but you lie to yourself and delude yourself it's your private life and none of her business. In this instance, a man with your sexual history should never go to a Vegas bachelor party or month long work trip alone {not saying you're planning to, it's a for instance}. Your sexual impulse control was weak in the past so it's foolish to even test it ~ EVER.
> 
> Of course, if monogamy isn't important to you {and her} and maintaining a private life so you can sneak around and do what you want is, then why get married. Share your life with your wife and she may just surprise you.


Wow. That's an awful lot of assumptions and harsh judgements made about someone you've never even met. Perfect example of the attitudes that many people encounter that keep them (especially women) fearful of revealing their past. Is it any wonder a woman might fear telling a man she is dating that she has had 15 or 20 sexual partners in her life? How do you know how healthy or unhealthy it was? How do you know what her motivation was? It's funny that you talk about release from shame while most of your post is an attempt to make his behavior sound shameful. 

Just curious - is this post based upon some scientific, peer reviewed psychological study or simply your opinions?


----------



## Middle of Everything

zookeeper said:


> Wow. That's an awful lot of assumptions and harsh judgements made about someone you've never even met. Perfect example of the attitudes that many people encounter that keep them (especially women) fearful of revealing their past. Is it any wonder a woman might fear telling a man she is dating that she has had 15 or 20 sexual partners in her life? How do you know how healthy or unhealthy it was? How do you know what her motivation was? It's funny that you talk about release from shame while most of your post is an attempt to make his behavior sound shameful.
> 
> Just curious - is this post based upon some scientific, peer reviewed psychological study or simply your opinions?


I didnt read all of Quality's post and I didnt read Andys post that he quoted or even his reply. Just wanted to get that out of the way as this response is not tied to their posts at all.

IMO, you are making excuses for lying. One could fear telling their significant other and a person they hope to marry many things. Maybe they were addicted to a drug, maybe they had major financial trouble sometime in their life. Maybe they were once in a convent or seminary contemplating becoming a priest or a nun. Hell I dont know. 

It's not ours to pick and choose what we tell the one we claim to love more than all others.


----------



## zookeeper

Middle of Everything said:


> I didnt read all of Quality's post and I didnt read Andys post that he quoted or even his reply. Just wanted to get that out of the way as this response is not tied to their posts at all.
> 
> IMO, you are making excuses for lying. One could fear telling their significant other and a person they hope to marry many things. Maybe they were addicted to a drug, maybe they had major financial trouble sometime in their life. Maybe they were once in a convent or seminary contemplating becoming a priest or a nun. Hell I dont know.
> 
> It's not ours to pick and choose what we tell the one we claim to love more than all others.


I make excuses for nothing. I was very clear earlier in the thread that I don't tolerate dishonesty and am an open book to my wife. The fact that someone would write a narrative diagnosing character flaws and claiming to know a complete stranger's motivations is exactly the kind of thing that makes someone fearful in the first place. It would be hard for you to consider that without reading the actual thread. Context is crucial for understanding.


----------



## Middle of Everything

zookeeper said:


> I make excuses for nothing. I was very clear earlier in the thread that I don't tolerate dishonesty and am an open book to my wife. The fact that someone would write a narrative diagnosing character flaws and claiming to know a complete stranger's motivations is exactly the kind of thing that makes someone fearful in the first place. It would be hard for you to consider that without reading the actual thread. Context is crucial for understanding.


Agreed. Thats why I said my response was not addressing their interaction. It is my position that fear does not justify a lack of honesty in an ideal way. I VERY much get how fear can make us less than honest and realize that it can in the real world. I've let fear make me less than honest in my own life. I hope it doesnt in the future. 

Sorry for any threadjack. :grin2:


----------



## Quality

Andy1001 said:


> I have given some thought to this post and I feel there are some things I should clarify.
> The first point is I'm not married and never have been.I have been with my girlfriend for six years.We split up last year for almost three months,cancelling our wedding but it had nothing to do with infidelity on either of our parts.We have since got back together and have a baby.
> You point about traveling alone, while well thought out and well meaning no doubt,is all encompassing and I feel does not correlate with how I behave.For about the first four years of our relationship I traveled to Europe about three times a month,sometimes more.I never cheated.I still travel regularly and I love it when my girlfriend comes with me.In fact we are all going to Holland at the weekend.
> My gf knows I have had a lot of partners,she just doesn't know the numbers involved.Since the day we met I have never behaved inappropriately with another woman.(Or man)
> I don't need parenting,if I wanted to cheat I could and I get plenty of offers.
> To be honest until you started this thread I hadn't thought about this subject for a long time.It isn't a fear of my girlfriend not accepting my past it's more a reluctance to try and justify it on my part.
> I agree it was a huge ego boost to look around a lounge or a bar and feel I could have any woman I chose.It didn't always pan out that way but it usually did.
> Thank you for taking the time to advise me.


Thank you for responding. Glad I didn't seem to offend you. I don't know what Zoo's prob was but I think she/he thought you were a woman I was shaming for having premarital sex? To be clear, I am a repentant former premarital fornicator myself. So was my wife. Our cavalier 20th century modern attitudes about such proved to have significant consequences in our resulting marriage {my wife ended up having an affair}. So I speak from experience. Further, as a Christian, I could say/discern that ONE TIME is sinful and unhealthy so 100+ one night stands or sexual partners {I forget how he described it} isn't a hard call to make and it's obviously not something Andy is printing up on business cards or using as a bi-line on his facebook profile picture. But~~of course, everything I wrote was based upon peer reviewed psychological studies, what else would anyone post here in an opinion|discussion forum? {good laugh though ~ imagine an actual scientific study determining that lying about your sexual history was better for martial success ~ probably something the waywards at the Gottman Institute would come out with}

I don't think the actual number is the important part and I'm glad your girlfriend, Andy, has an idea that you were fairly promiscuous, but before you get married maybe mentioning that it might be a lot more than she thinks and see if she's even in the ballpark of actually "knowing" something that might be important for her to know {it's not important to me what you tell her, I'm just an anonymous poster on a forum ~ I care only to the extent it makes a good discussion for others and maybe you'll consider it too]. ALSO ~~ if she asks straight up, I hope you certainly don't lie {not saying you would but you've indicated some jealousy has been expressed already so don't try to protect her feelings by fudging your history}.

As far as reluctance to explain or justify it ~ maybe you don't. Demonstrate honesty and, if YOU aren't proud of it, don't rationalize and justify it ~ just own it. If you are religious ~ repent of it {repentance kind of means ~ "to change your mind"}. At one time {it appears from your statements} you seemed to derive a lot of pleasure and self-worth from such risky {unhealthy to the level you think it is} sexual behavior. You took pride in being able to select a woman in the room. target her and ultimately bed her. That's no longer who you are. Perhaps you express that it ultimately was lonely and a bit empty and though you aren't yet at fully regretting it, you still find yourself embarrassed about sharing it with her. You can be wrong ~ you don't have to justify it or explain away everything. 

Again, I will point out, I'm not suggesting your wife needs to police you. I AM suggesting, once married {but since you've got a baby why not just do it now} that you TOGETHER, hold each other accountable. That's great you successfully traveled the world off and on the first three years of your relationship without cheating but nobody gives out trophies for that and now the relationship has a child and an off-again on-again vibe to the wedding sounds like things are getting real. Old habits die hard and you only need to slip up once to mess up your entire marriage and family. Accountability is about intimacy building and demonstrating an EXTRAORDINARY amount of care for the relationship. Your wife would check in with you and you'd check in with her because you love each other and want to protect the marriage at all costs and at all time. If you do that your wife will feel CHERISHED instead of jealous or worse, secretly suspicious. Maybe your mutual protections could include things like: "when we are apart, we will never have more than 1,2 or 3 {whatever you decide} drinks of alcohol, always leave our location services on and use the find my friends app to know where each other are at all times and facetime each other {a face to face conversation versus a text good night}. Another good general rule, I will always take a call from my spouse {or call my spouse back as soon as I can if I happen to miss a call}. There is nothing more important than family and nobody should have a problem with that. 




Andy said:


> As regards flirting with other women or them flirting with me this is one subject which for years wasn't a problem and then it was.My girlfriend thought it was hilarious that so many waitresses or barmaids or even shop assistants would write their phone number on my receipt before passing it to me.Then she seemed to suddenly take offence at it but she would fight with me,not the other women.I don't know what I can do about this though but she seems to have gotten over it again.


I'm just guessing you're in sales and kind of have a large personality. You kind of LIKE to be LIKED and admiration is a top need of yours. Just a presumption so I apologize if I'm missing the mark completely but you're a flirt and despite her not liking it, you just can't help yourself holding that waitresses eyes a full second longer and more penetratingly than you really need to. You read people and they read you back and you're sending signals with your body language that communicate you're available even though you're with your girlfriend. You LIKE the attention and probably even a little of the jealousy. "What can I do?" is kind of a misnomer, because you don't want to change it ~~ it's who you are and a part of what makes you feel good about being you. Maybe now that you've got a baby it's calmed down a bit because these waitresses aren't all dying to be home wreckers but still, I think you know you COULD take it down a notch and possible consider why you are doing this ~ what are you getting out of it and realize that that kind of outside validation isn't worth really anything. Your family is the only important thing to derive self-worth from. 

How do you solve the question: "why should you take it down a notch?". 

The solution to your girlfriend ~ future wife's jealousy problem isn't for her to just accept it and laugh it off. If it bothers her still ~ you WANT her to tell you and not just be sucking it up. Most spouses in your position think the solution is for the other spouse to be less jealous. They've got nothing to worry about right? Besides I'm just a naturaly flirt and it's always been like this. Maybe that's true but your relationship can be better and YOU will be much more happy in your relationship if you just stopped doing the things that made her jealous to whatever extent you can. Let her pay sign the credit card receipt or pay if you foresee a woman taking interest in you. Do anything you can to ward off such attention. If a phone number plops into your lap while you're with her again through no action of yours ~ you should then be offended on her behalf and NOT flattered. It is RUDE for a woman to try to proposition you, absnet invitation by you, in front of your soon to be wife and you should maybe speak up about it {probably go over that with the girlfriend and discuss how SHE would like you to respond}. I have a feeling you might have been doing some of this already which is why she stopped bugging you about it.


So what's up with the delay getting married? If you don't want to share openly, you can PM me.


----------



## Quality

VladDracul said:


> Bottom line is if you need other sex partners, why get married. If you merely need companionship, get a dog.


Or sheep.:whip:

:smthumbup:


----------



## Quality

zookeeper said:


> Wow. That's an awful lot of assumptions and harsh judgements made about someone you've never even met. Perfect example of the attitudes that many people encounter that keep them (especially women) fearful of revealing their past. Is it any wonder a woman might fear telling a man she is dating that she has had 15 or 20 sexual partners in her life? How do you know how healthy or unhealthy it was? How do you know what her motivation was? It's funny that you talk about release from shame while most of your post is an attempt to make his behavior sound shameful.
> 
> Just curious - is this post based upon some scientific, peer reviewed psychological study or simply your opinions?


I responded to you above in my post to Andy but I also wanted to say that Andy's original post on this subject implied some degree of pre-existing shame, fear and|or embarrassment about his prior sexual behavior. Why else would he be keeping it a secret? He didn't explain so I took the opportunity to shotgun it. 

I'm glad Andy didn't take it as harshly as you. My intent wasn't to attack him. Just a discussion and some suggestion. A little coaching never hurt anyone and he can take it or leave it. He's a grown man ~ I presumed he could take it. As far as being judgmental. Being able to discern right from wrong is something we all need to work on. As I've gotten older I've gotten better at it {I'm not perfect and still sin ~ just nowhere near as much as the younger version of myself}; however, if you want to come in after and celebrate his self-described non-intimate very casual and random sexual conquests as awesome and healthy be my guest.


----------



## zookeeper

I don't know if his behavior is healthy any more than you, coach. Big difference between us it that I am aware of it. One of us doesn't have an agenda they are trying to push. Can you guess which one you are?

Express all the opinions you like. It would be nice if you didn't try to assert them as fact when they are simply your opinion. The fact that you are a "coach" doesn't make you an authority, no matter how much you throw the word around. Every season one coach comes in last.


----------



## MAJDEATH

I was honest in our pre-marriage counseling with the pastor. And I believe my W was as well. However I don't think the Pastor believed her when she said she did not know the name of the child's bio father. So he recommended we put out a public notice in the newspaper (carefully worded) and she contact anyone involved with the situation, which is what we did prior to the wedding.

In the years since, I have come to believe her and understand how hard it was to admit she made a big mistake, but still wanted to marry the likes of me.


----------



## Andy1001

Quality said:


> I responded to you above in my post to Andy but I also wanted to say that Andy's original post on this subject implied some degree of pre-existing shame, fear and|or embarrassment about his prior sexual behavior. Why else would he be keeping it a secret? He didn't explain so I took the opportunity to shotgun it.
> 
> I'm glad Andy didn't take it as harshly as you. My intent wasn't to attack him. Just a discussion and some suggestion. A little coaching never hurt anyone and he can take it or leave it. He's a grown man ~ I presumed he could take it. As far as being judgmental. Being able to discern right from wrong is something we all need to work on. As I've gotten older I've gotten better at it {I'm not perfect and still sin ~ just nowhere near as much as the younger version of myself}; however, if you want to come in after and celebrate his self-described non-intimate very casual and random sexual conquests as awesome and healthy be my guest.


There is one point on your post that I think you are wrong about.You called it a pathology that while I could attract almost any woman I wanted to,I didn't form any emotional bond with them.I think this is actually an advantage in a relationship.The only woman in the world that I love or have ever loved in a sexual sense is my girlfriend.
I would never cheat on her full stop.


----------



## alexm

Andy1001 said:


> There is one point on your post that I think you are wrong about.You called it a pathology that while I could attract almost any woman I wanted to,I didn't form any emotional bond with them.I think this is actually an advantage in a relationship.The only woman in the world that I love or have ever loved in a sexual sense is my girlfriend.
> I would never cheat on her full stop.


The word they were looking for was "pathological" (not pathology, that's something else entirely).

In any case, it's not wrong, IMO.

Not judging, but anyone who has had as many partners as you have would fit the definition of pathological quite well.


----------



## Robbie1234

Andy1001 said:


> There is one point on your post that I think you are wrong about.You called it a pathology that while I could attract almost any woman I wanted to,I didn't form any emotional bond with them.I think this is actually an advantage in a relationship.The only woman in the world that I love or have ever loved in a sexual sense is my girlfriend.
> I would never cheat on her full stop.


The problem you have is if you ever split up again you will be in bits.I read all your thread and the guy who posts on Tam now is a different man than when you and your fiance split up.You were acting very foolishly last year and I think you were depressed.It took me almost a year to start getting back dating when I caught my wife vheating so I know what being depressed is like.You should never tell J the truth about your past,she may not want to know and she may not believe you anyway.
When's the wedding Andy.


----------



## Andy1001

alexm said:


> The word they were looking for was "pathological" (not pathology, that's something else entirely).
> 
> In any case, it's not wrong, IMO.
> 
> Not judging, but anyone who has had as many partners as you have would fit the definition of pathological quite well.


I think the important word is had.That behaviour is all in the past and I am very happy with the woman I have.
I don't regret anything about my past,I had a blast and I honestly believe a lot of people who criticise me,especially guys,would love to have been in my shoes back then.
But as I said it's all in the past.


----------



## alexm

Andy1001 said:


> I think the important word is had.That behaviour is all in the past and I am very happy with the woman I have.
> I don't regret anything about my past,I had a blast and* I honestly believe a lot of people who criticise me,especially guys,would love to have been in my shoes back then.*
> But as I said it's all in the past.


I played a sport at a fairly high level back in the day (not pro, but closer than most will ever get a sniff at). A familiar mantra among the elite level athletes was "Act like you've been there before", which is another way of saying "be humble". That saying has stuck with me through my life, and it's just as apt outside of sports, as well.

In other words, you may think people want to be like you, but you'd be surprised at how happy people are just being themselves.


----------



## Andy1001

alexm said:


> I played a sport at a fairly high level back in the day (not pro, but closer than most will ever get a sniff at). A familiar mantra among the elite level athletes was "Act like you've been there before", which is another way of saying "be humble". That saying has stuck with me through my life, and it's just as apt outside of sports, as well.
> 
> In other words, you may think people want to be like you, but you'd be surprised at how happy people are just being themselves.


I didn't say all men wanted to act like me,I said a lot of the men who criticise me did.I think my post came across as bragging and if it did it was unintentional.If I wanted to brag it wouldn't be about female conquests.


----------



## Quality

Andy1001 said:


> There is one point on your post that I think you are wrong about.You called it a pathology that while I could attract almost any woman I wanted to,I didn't form any emotional bond with them.I think this is actually an advantage in a relationship.The only woman in the world that I love or have ever loved in a sexual sense is my girlfriend.



As Alex pointed out, I meant pathological.

*Pathological: *:
...

3. being such to a degree that is extreme, excessive, or markedly abnormal (i.e.- a pathological fear or pathological liar)

and "pathological" is synonymous with words like: obsessive, persistent, compulsive and habitual.

I don't think you're an ax murderer or anything but number of women you had casual sex with is pretty extreme, excessive, to some markedly abnormal. To Wilt Chamberlain ~ you are practically virginal.

You took a behavior many people save exclusively for committed relationships and took it to a pathological lever. I think I was asking you to THINK about what purpose or need this was filing in you to do so?? Why do you think men would be jealous of you??? Is it actually "manly" behavior??? What repercussions might such thinking have on your attempts at a monogamous relationship ~ marriage??? And ~ then ~ discuss it with your girlfriend|future wife|mother of your child so she just knows you inside and out and knows the truth about things that MAY make her relationship/marriage more risky than she thought.



Andy said:


> I would never cheat on her full stop.


What's your plan?

I'm really not being critical of you and I'm certainly not jealous. I HAD my own "too many" exploits and I'm merely speaking to you as a voice of experience indicating that your past "habitual" behavior remains a risk to this or really any future relationship you may have.

I get that at your age you don't regret and actually still wear it as a badge of honor that you THINK most men or, really, all men would be jealous of your history with women. Great. Congrats. You had awesome meaningless sex. Whatever. {IMO, none of it compares to great marital sex but that's another thread}. I just know that sin has consequences {it did for me} and hoped to point out to you what those consequences might include. I also know the if I were the devil plotting how to come after you and break up your eventual marriage {I hope} and family, I'd try to exploit this little foothold into your thinking that casual sex isn't bad or harmful and, besides, it'll make you feel like a man again and plot to send temptation your way while you were out of the country in a very similar surrounding as your other youthful "conquests". They'll whisper in your ear "your wife will never know ~ just add it to the pile of other secrets you are already keeping".

If you REALLY want to stay monogamous, you should WANT and WELCOME your future wife's heightened scrutiny. Being honest and accountable is just SOOO much easier than trying to hide things. 

50% or so of marriages are affected by infidelity at some point along the line. That's a lot of waywards, most of whom probably felt at one time that they'd "never cheat on their spouse ~ full stop". "Never" is a long time and all I'm saying is ~ the couples in long term successful marriages didn't achieve lifelong monogamy by accident. Instead, most, purposefully behave in a certain manner throughout their lives and throughout their marriages. They didn't lie or withhold information from one another and they work together to hold themselves mutually accountable to one another. Traveling for work is often a marriage killer but it's your life and you're the one gambling. However, clearly, will power is not always enough. 

ALSO - this is a mutual undertaking. Your future wife might completely agree with you today that she would NEVER cheat on you ~ full stop. What's her plan? Maybe she's got skeletons too? How many old boyfriends does she keep on her contact list or social media? What's she going to do and who is she going to hang out with while you are out of town travelling?. 

"Coaching" couples AFTER infidelity is very hard. But not as hard as coaching couples pre-marriage or early marriage and convincing them that they are not unique and just as susceptible to infidelity as anyone else. In fact, failure to acknowledge such risk is a risk factor in itself. You can possess all the character and good intentions in the world and it can all come crumbling down in one night or one season. Infidelity destroys lives and families. It's not worth the risk and it's, generally, avoidable. Just need a plan.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Kinda lost me after the devil got brought up.


----------



## Andy1001

Quality said:


> As Alex pointed out, I meant pathological.
> 
> *Pathological: *:
> ...
> 
> 3. being such to a degree that is extreme, excessive, or markedly abnormal (i.e.- a pathological fear or pathological liar)
> 
> and "pathological" is synonymous with words like: obsessive, persistent, compulsive and habitual.
> 
> I don't think you're an ax murderer or anything but number of women you had casual sex with is pretty extreme, excessive, to some markedly abnormal. To Wilt Chamberlain ~ you are practically virginal.
> 
> You took a behavior many people save exclusively for committed relationships and took it to a pathological lever. I think I was asking you to THINK about what purpose or need this was filing in you to do so?? Why do you think men would be jealous of you??? Is it actually "manly" behavior??? What repercussions might such thinking have on your attempts at a monogamous relationship ~ marriage??? And ~ then ~ discuss it with your girlfriend|future wife|mother of your child so she just knows you inside and out and knows the truth about things that MAY make her relationship/marriage more risky than she thought.
> 
> 
> 
> What's your plan?
> 
> I'm really not being critical of you and I'm certainly not jealous. I HAD my own "too many" exploits and I'm merely speaking to you as a voice of experience indicating that your past "habitual" behavior remains a risk to this or really any future relationship you may have.
> 
> I get that at your age you don't regret and actually still wear it as a badge of honor that you THINK most men or, really, all men would be jealous of your history with women. Great. Congrats. You had awesome meaningless sex. Whatever. {IMO, none of it compares to great marital sex but that's another thread}. I just know that sin has consequences {it did for me} and hoped to point out to you what those consequences might include. I also know the if I were the devil plotting how to come after you and break up your eventual marriage {I hope} and family, I'd try to exploit this little foothold into your thinking that casual sex isn't bad or harmful and, besides, it'll make you feel like a man again and plot to send temptation your way while you were out of the country in a very similar surrounding as your other youthful "conquests". They'll whisper in your ear "your wife will never know ~ just add it to the pile of other secrets you are already keeping".
> 
> If you REALLY want to stay monogamous, you should WANT and WELCOME your future wife's heightened scrutiny. Being honest and accountable is just SOOO much easier than trying to hide things.
> 
> 50% or so of marriages are affected by infidelity at some point along the line. That's a lot of waywards, most of whom probably felt at one time that they'd "never cheat on their spouse ~ full stop". "Never" is a long time and all I'm saying is ~ the couples in long term successful marriages didn't achieve lifelong monogamy by accident. Instead, most, purposefully behave in a certain manner throughout their lives and throughout their marriages. They didn't lie or withhold information from one another and they work together to hold themselves mutually accountable to one another. Traveling for work is often a marriage killer but it's your life and you're the one gambling. However, clearly, will power is not always enough.
> 
> ALSO - this is a mutual undertaking. Your future wife might completely agree with you today that she would NEVER cheat on you ~ full stop. What's her plan? Maybe she's got skeletons too? How many old boyfriends does she keep on her contact list or social media? What's she going to do and who is she going to hang out with while you are out of town travelling?.
> 
> "Coaching" couples AFTER infidelity is very hard. But not as hard as coaching couples pre-marriage or early marriage and convincing them that they are not unique and just as susceptible to infidelity as anyone else. In fact, failure to acknowledge such risk is a risk factor in itself. You can possess all the character and good intentions in the world and it can all come crumbling down in one night or one season. Infidelity destroys lives and families. It's not worth the risk and it's, generally, avoidable. Just need a plan.


What I said in my post was a lot of the men who CRITICISE me would have loved to be in my shoes back then.At no point did I say most men would behave as I did.
I was a young man,constantly traveling and I found company using the gifts I had.At one stage in my early twenties I spent over four hundred consecutive days traveling and the longest time I stayed anywhere would have been three nights.It didn't give me much time to form deep meaningful relationships and I didn't want to,I was having too much fun.
As for the Devil, Yeah.........


----------



## SimplyAmorous

wild jade said:


> I had a similar reaction when I read this. Both my husband and I have many friends that we might run into, that we might chat with online, that we might reconnect with through various means. My husband is an avid Facebook user and has most if not all of his old lovers and girlfriends on there. I can't imagine telling him he needs to account for every interaction with them any more than I feel obliged to account for every one of mine.


I don't see it as a matter of reporting "like a duty"..or a requirement sort of thing or you'll be in the doghouse....this would bother me too.... if it was the attitude..

How I see it : it's a feeling of .. we *want* to share with them... just because we share everything.. that's just how some couples ARE and enjoy being that way... I feel it's a compatibility thing even..

We don't really have exs... but there was a couple guys my husband worried I may break up with him & be with in our early years, he's told me that was a hard time for him... he doesn't care a hill of beans that I am friends on FB with one of them...or that we've talked in private messages on occasion even...but the reason why is..

I am an open book..always have been ... I willingly share everything with him.. and he greatly appreciates that .... what is there to worry about...it's one of the reasons I am so endeared to him...*because we have THAT*.. it's like "coming home"... we are each others biggest support... as it should be... 

When a couple finds they can't speak to their partner anymore.. too busy.. not listening.. too critical, or they just don't care, or want bothered.. this can open up a crack in the foundation for some,....where they may find themselves sharing private matters seeking support ... if the opposite sex, some attraction there... whether an old flame or not... doesn't matter.. gotta watch that... 

How important to keep the communication and flame lit at home...to always bring it back home..


----------



## goodgirlgonebad

Uh, I just read the first post and clicked on that link to the questionnaire. While I feel like many of the things on there would come out and be talked about over time in a committed relationship, if someone handed me that "inventory" prior to engagement/marriage, I would think they were a psychopath and run.


----------



## ReturntoZero

As a general guideline, if you have had 10 or less partners and your intended bride has banged an entire football team worth of guys (22 or more), and your ex's are the issue, you may wish to hesitate before taking things to the next level


----------



## alexm

ReturntoZero said:


> As a general guideline, if you have had 10 or less partners and your intended bride has banged an entire football team worth of guys (22 or more), and your ex's are the issue, you may wish to hesitate before taking things to the next level


And why would that be, exactly?

Numbers are arbitrary. Your exes could all have been serious relationships, not casual, sex-only romps. I was with my ex wife for ~14 years. She'd be far more of a threat (perceived or real) to my current wife/marriage than some hook-up I had when I was 20.

Its funny, because people just seem so threatened by somebody's "number". Here's reality for you - my wife was FAR more threatened by the fact that I had been married before (she hadn't) than I've ever been about the number of partners she's had. I mean, I had a wedding ceremony before, and all the planning. Bachelor party, honeymoon, etc. A lot of my friends and family were at both. I bought a house with my ex wife, took vacations, the whole nine. To my wife, all of these little (and not so little) milestones and life achievements, I've already done before - with someone else. It doesn't mean that she wasn't happy to share all of these things with me, but she knows it's not my first time doing them, either.

Long story short - almost all of us have had experiences with other people, to varying degrees. People's sexual experiences seem to be the only ones anybody whines about - or judges.


----------



## SunCMars

"I cannot handle the Truth!"

I am too emotional and jealous.
I would not say a word if told....but I would do-flips in my head.

I need to kept in the dark about someone's past.
Yes, to my detriment...I am sure.


----------



## ReturntoZero

alexm said:


> And why would that be, exactly?
> 
> Numbers are arbitrary. Your exes could all have been serious relationships, not casual, sex-only romps. I was with my ex wife for ~14 years. She'd be far more of a threat (perceived or real) to my current wife/marriage than some hook-up I had when I was 20.
> 
> Its funny, because people just seem so threatened by somebody's "number". Here's reality for you - my wife was FAR more threatened by the fact that I had been married before (she hadn't) than I've ever been about the number of partners she's had. I mean, I had a wedding ceremony before, and all the planning. Bachelor party, honeymoon, etc. A lot of my friends and family were at both. I bought a house with my ex wife, took vacations, the whole nine. To my wife, all of these little (and not so little) milestones and life achievements, I've already done before - with someone else. It doesn't mean that she wasn't happy to share all of these things with me, but she knows it's not my first time doing them, either.
> 
> Long story short - almost all of us have had experiences with other people, to varying degrees. People's sexual experiences seem to be the only ones anybody whines about - or judges.


Perhaps my point was a bit obtuse.

Let me clear that up.

If you are the one in the relationship who wants to move forward and take care of each other and your SO insists on grinding on your past and your ex's, (and - to buttress the absurdity of the double standard - you've had far less than her), you may wish to re-think your desire to take the relationship to the next level.


----------



## alexm

ReturntoZero said:


> Perhaps my point was a bit obtuse.
> 
> Let me clear that up.
> 
> If you are the one in the relationship who wants to move forward and take care of each other and your SO insists on grinding on your past and your ex's, (and - to buttress the absurdity of the double standard - you've had far less than her), you may wish to re-think your desire to take the relationship to the next level.


Well, your other post specifically mentioned numbers, so..

My point was that each person could have had one partner prior, and it doesn't matter. My example was apt, in that I have had far fewer than my wife, but among them was one that I was with for 14 years and married to. My wife doesn't, and didn't, feel threatened by her, so much as she knew that I'd already experienced numerous things she never had, which, naturally, minimizes the excitement of sharing "new things" (such as weddings and honeymoons... lol)

It's really no different when it comes to sex. "Oh, you've already done that?", meanwhile it's your first time doing whatever it is. With my ex wife, sex involved a lot of exploring. I had had experience before her, of course, but not much long term or terribly explorative. I don't know why, but I expected something similar with my current wife. There's not much she hadn't already done or tried prior to me, whereas I had numerous things I had not. All good, of course, it's just that brief moment of "this isn't new to you, is it?"  lol. So I know how she felt when we got married, bought a house, etc.


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## MAJDEATH

Either you are "experienced" before marriage, or you aren't. That's really all you need to say. 

My W had many lovers prior to me, but all of the "quick bang with the lights off" variety. She had never had an orgasm, never seen a peen up close, never received oral, etc. So she was experienced with penetration but not with advanced (and more fullfiling IMO) sexual encounters.


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## arbitrator

*I can honestly say that when the potential Mrs. Arb ever avails herself, the subject of infidelity will come up at the proper time. If she has been a willing party to it, it will be a dealbreaker!

If she is a "no-no sexual," or delights in playing "mind games," then that will be another deal breaker. That and a few other things!

But by the same token, I want her to know the extent of my honorable and caring love life with the former Mrs. A's as well as all of those that never quite made it as far as the alter!*


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## Affaircare

May I make a polite request, @arbitrator? You are one of the folks I respect most here on TAM and you've surely been through the ringer enough time to never want to go through that again! But based on what you wrote above, a female person such as myself would be a "deal breaker" and you might lose out on someone who was formerly disloyal and who took the time to repent and turn herself around. 

Now, I think we are in agreement that the number of disloyal folks who actually repent and turn around are very few and far between!! I'd guess 2 in 100 if we're lucky! But those 2 might be worth staying open-minded for a moment and asking, "What did you learn from that infidelity?" or "How did that change you?" and just see what she says. Based on her own words, if she takes personal responsibility and demonstrates ways that her thoughts and actions have changed, and doesn't blameshift or minimize, it may be worth it to give her a chance to show you the changes in action. Words are cheap. She could just know what to say... but if you take that attitude of 'Okay I'll sit back and objectively observe if I see the kind of character I need' you may find "one of the two of a hundred."

Know what I mean?


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## arbitrator

Affaircare said:


> May I make a polite request, @arbitrator? You are one of the folks I respect most here on TAM and you've surely been through the ringer enough time to never want to go through that again! But based on what you wrote above, a female person such as myself would be a "deal breaker" and you might lose out on someone who was formerly disloyal and who took the time to repent and turn herself around.
> 
> Now, I think we are in agreement that the number of disloyal folks who actually repent and turn around are very few and far between!! I'd guess 2 in 100 if we're lucky! But those 2 might be worth staying open-minded for a moment and asking, "What did you learn from that infidelity?" or "How did that change you?" and just see what she says. Based on her own words, if she takes personal responsibility and demonstrates ways that her thoughts and actions have changed, and doesn't blameshift or minimize, it may be worth it to give her a chance to show you the changes in action. Words are cheap. She could just know what to say... but if you take that attitude of 'Okay I'll sit back and objectively observe if I see the kind of character I need' you may find "one of the two of a hundred."
> 
> Know what I mean?


*AC: Thank you do much for your wise and most learned counsel! I completely realize the content of what it is that you are saying, but finding a repentant person of that magnitude is truly the worldly exception, much rather than the rule; or least it seems to be embedded in my mind! 

I've also intoned on occasion in my offerings that if I married what turned out to be the most loyal and faithful woman in the entire world, I greatly fear that there's something within my personal makeup, character, "good-guyness," Christian mantra, etc., that would drive them away to leave me much like my other two wives and to cheat on and rehurt me, making me yet a three-time loser.

Oh, I've had well meaning friends at church offer to fix me up with their single lady friends, but more often than not, I reject them out of abject fear!

Fear of a third failure absolutely tears the seams of my heart open! The Christian principle of "forgive and forget" is only half complied with by me, as I have seen fit to fully "forgive" both of my exes for their transgressions, but the fallible "human" in me just cannot seem to "forget!" Even if they have been summarily and totally forgiven by our Heavenly Father! 

And like Him, I have effectively "forgiven!" But unlike Him, as the lowly human that I am, my psychological shortcomings and insecurities will never allow me to "forget" until such time that I stand before the Heavenly Father himself for divine counsel!*


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## Affaircare

@arbitrator, 

I'm so sorry you feel that way. I can understand why, but it's still sad. So here's my weird question then---what's the point of asking someone for their history then? LOL If she not a loyal and faithful person, deal breaker. If she IS a loyal and faithful person, you fear something inside you is wrong such that they won't want to keep their vow. Either way, you are alone. 

By the way--no need to answer if I've hit a nerve. And I realize that most of this whole thread is theory and concept anyway!


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## samyeagar

Affaircare said:


> May I make a polite request, @arbitrator? You are one of the folks I respect most here on TAM and you've surely been through the ringer enough time to never want to go through that again! But based on what you wrote above, a female person such as myself would be a "deal breaker" and you might lose out on someone who was formerly disloyal and who took the time to repent and turn herself around.
> 
> Now, I think we are in agreement that the number of disloyal folks who actually repent and turn around are very few and far between!! I'd guess 2 in 100 if we're lucky! But those 2 might be worth staying open-minded for a moment and asking, "What did you learn from that infidelity?" or "How did that change you?" and just see what she says. Based on her own words, if she takes personal responsibility and demonstrates ways that her thoughts and actions have changed, and doesn't blameshift or minimize, it may be worth it to give her a chance to show you the changes in action. Words are cheap. She could just know what to say... but if you take that attitude of 'Okay I'll sit back and objectively observe if I see the kind of character I need' you may find "one of the two of a hundred."
> 
> Know what I mean?


And see, I look at it more from a loss mitigation point of view. Say I am hiring someone for my business...why would I hire a convicted thief, when I have 100 other applicants who aren't? 

In context of this thread, yes I could be missing out on a great woman, with whom I'd have a great relationship and chemistry, but in my experience, great women aren't all that hard to come by. I've never been one to believe in the whole "The One" concept.


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## arbitrator

Affaircare said:


> @arbitrator,
> 
> I'm so sorry you feel that way. I can understand why, but it's still sad. So here's my weird question then---what's the point of asking someone for their history then? LOL If she not a loyal and faithful person, deal breaker. If she IS a loyal and faithful person, you fear something inside you is wrong such that they won't want to keep their vow. Either way, you are alone.
> 
> By the way--no need to answer if I've hit a nerve. And I realize that most of this whole thread is theory and concept anyway!


*Thanks, @Affaircare ~ But quite frankly, if it ever got down to brass tacks, I'd probably chicken out and not ask if they had been unfaithful. But I'm so adept at finding excuses not to date, primarily because I find myself immeasurably scared that any new, blossoming relationship would just go south, much like the other two! And after a while, one finds solace and security in being alone and free from hurt of other people!

On my last few first dates, there have been quite a few internalized disqualifiers, such as their affluence, their superfluous education, social stature, overt flamboyancy, over-consumption of alcohol, among other things, which gives me sickening flashbacks of my RSXW! Then I just tell myself that they would greatly be the same as her!

I'll be the first to admit that these two failed marriages have done more damage to my marital hopes and psyche than I'd ever care to admit!

The sad thing is that I've counseled people, and with success I might add, who have had similar problems, into stepping back out in the dating world and getting proactive again.

Ol' Arb's problem, at least in regard to this, is that he will often not take the same medicine that he often doles out!
*


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## arbitrator

samyeagar said:


> And see, I look at it more from a loss mitigation point of view. Say I am hiring someone for my business...why would I hire a convicted thief, when I have 100 other applicants who aren't?
> 
> * In the context of this thread, yes,  I could be missing out on a great woman, with whom I'd have a great relationship and chemistry , but in my experience, great women aren't all that hard to come by.  I've never been one to believe in the whole "The One" concept.*


*Sadly, that's exactly where I'm finding myself right now!*


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