# Circumstantial evidence, no hard proof



## gdtm0111 (Oct 15, 2012)

So our marriage is rocky again. She had an affair last October - says she only kissed him. But shaved (which she hates) and said she did it for OBGYN visit.

Along a lack of intimacy, where we might only have sex once on the weekend and short kissing. Last night I tried to fool around with her and it was like she couldn't stand it.

Here's some things I've also found lately, some by digging (snooping) thru her purse.
1. Phone call made on Sunday lasted 2 minutes, might belong to AP from Oct.
411 Info gave me a first initial and partial last name that match OM. Coworker called the # but no answer and no voicemail.

2. She took $80 cash out of her account on Monday just before lunch, but didn't purchase anything other than inexpensive birthday party stuff. I need to see if there is a receipt for it.
There are several hotels near her work.

3. Sticky note in purse "My husband is an idiot and sometimes I want to *** him, but he's my idiot and I don't want to *** anyone else.
WTF, who writes something like that?

4. She's been very secretive at times when using her phone. She rarely leaves it sitting around for me to check.

Neither one of us can afford to move out right now, and I'm certainly not leaving - we have a son. I've been going thru phone records for the last few days to see if any # matches a hotel, but so far nothing.


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## mahike (Aug 16, 2011)

All of these things would have me sitting up straight and thinking the same thing.

I would start with the phone bill and she who she is calling, check the home computer and put a key logger on it. VAR they always talk with the AP in the car. You can also put a GPS on her car and see where she goes.

It sounds like the A is not over or it started up again. It sounds like you were trying to R with her. Did you set boundries and rules. 

You can always demand her to hand over the phone or their is the door.


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## awake1 (Jan 29, 2013)

Knowing what I know after having been in this situation, I would have just demanded the phone when she left the room to use it. 

FWW would only delete conversations after they were over. But would often leave the room, or go to bed early to talk to the APs. 

You should only need 1 conversation to know what's up and draw conclusions from. 

In hindsight the biggest red flag is being over protective of the phone. 

FYI: "We just kissed" is cheater speak. The english translation is "we had sex". 

Can you get the phone bill? That itself will often shed enough light on things.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

VAR under the seat of her car.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

turnera said:


> VAR under the seat of her car.


:iagree:


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## workindad (May 7, 2011)

Third vote for a var. read weightlifter a tips.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## badbane (Jun 9, 2012)

Ruh Rough Raggie get a VAR. There is a link in my signature you might want to check out about evidence gathering post on there if you have questions.


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## ironman (Feb 6, 2013)

gdtm0111 said:


> 3. Sticky note in purse "My husband is an idiot and sometimes I want to *** him, but he's my idiot and I don't want to *** anyone else.
> WTF, who writes something like that?


Someone who is cheating/thinking of cheating, is trying to quit out of guilt, and needs to be reminded of who they are supposed to be sleeping with.

My 2 cents anyway.


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## ShootMePlz! (Oct 5, 2008)

ironman said:


> Someone who is cheating/thinking of cheating, is trying to quit out of guilt, and needs to be reminded of who they are supposed to be sleeping with.
> 
> My 2 cents anyway.


My first thought was that it was a note for you if you decided to search thru her purse. Just a thought!!


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

ShootMePlz! said:


> My first thought was that it was a note for you if you decided to search thru her purse. Just a thought!!


I thought this myself. She's aware you are snooping, chances were you would search the purse. It can be a gaslighting tactic.


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## mahike (Aug 16, 2011)

I thought the same thing about the note in the purse it was for you to find because she dislikes the snooping.

It also sounds like you may have done some rug sweeping with her about the A. Have you guys been in MC.

In my opinion if you are going to at least try and R you must be in MC for some time. This is about broken things in the marriage but also to make your wife accountable to more then just you.


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## gdtm0111 (Oct 15, 2012)

Well I contacted a mediator. I'm not interested in trying to R any further, and at this point am just acting along like I normally would. Haven't been distant or anything, that I'm aware of.

I've gone thru the phone bill (it's in my name) for the last couple of days, but damn iPhones don't track all texts - ie. iPhone to iPhone, but it does track our iPhone messages to each other. I haven't found anything else, even that phone # isn't listed anywhere else. 

Hopefully I've just been paranoid, except for the note. Maybe she did put it there for me to find.

The last time I mentioned MC, she said NO. I need IC to fix myself.... Already did that. Her IC seems like she just got incentive to live her life and stay married for the sake of our son. F' that, he doesn't deserve to grow up with 2 people screaming at each other. Almost 5 years old, and has asked me twice recently why "mommy is yelling at daddy".


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## Tobyboy (Jun 13, 2013)

Try running the phone number through these free websites. namefromphone.com or tnid.us
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mahike (Aug 16, 2011)

OK if she would not go to MC then I would show her the door. She does not get to have an A and then set the rules to R.

Read up on the 180 and tell her it is MC or she is out. Did you expose the A from last year? big mistake if you did not but it is never to late


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## gdtm0111 (Oct 15, 2012)

At this point I'm done, no need for MC. I rug swept last year, no question. Already read NMMNG and MMSL.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

I never heard of anyone having to shave for a gyno visit. My wife had to be shaved, but that was for a gall bladder removal. So shaving would only be required if your wife was going to have surgery around her general pubic area.


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## Tobyboy (Jun 13, 2013)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> I never heard of anyone having to shave for a gyno visit. My wife had to be shaved, but that was for a gall bladder removal. So shaving would only be required if your wife was going to have surgery around her general pubic area.


Perhaps the Gyno is a male.


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## camillaj (Aug 3, 2013)

Perhaps the gyno is a female.


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## gdtm0111 (Oct 15, 2012)

Yes she is a female GYN, and my wife did have an odd smile when she mentioned shaving again for the visit.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

So her shaving for the gyno is a standard thing with her, or is this the first time she felt the need???


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## KanDo (Jun 15, 2011)

The shaving is BS. You are taking the logical approach


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## harrybrown (May 22, 2013)

Are you sure she has closed the A from last year?


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## barbados (Aug 30, 2012)

gdtm0111 said:


> So our marriage is rocky again. She had an affair last October - *says she only kissed him. But shaved (which she hates) and said she did it for OBGYN visit.*


WE JUST KISSED = THEY HAD SEX ! Cheater speak 101

Absolutely no reason to shave for a regular GYNO visit. 

She shaved for him !


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## doubletrouble (Apr 23, 2013)

You're done with the marriage, yet you're concerned about her phone calls? Why bother? Just file.


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## daggeredheart (Feb 21, 2012)

Nothing worse that a spouse who cheats but the topping is when they leave a back door open to continue it. Cowards! 

You are doing the right thing in leaving her. The triangle keeps the infatuation going but taking yourself out of the equation sure topples it fast. By then you should be well on your way to finding peace and being a good dad away from her.


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## carmen ohio (Sep 24, 2012)

Dear gdtm0111,

Let me make a few observations (forgive me if I repeat what some others have said):



gdtm0111 said:


> So our marriage is rocky again. *She had an affair last October - says she only kissed him. But shaved (which she hates) and said she did it for OBGYN visit. [I presume you are aware that your WW almost certainly did more than just kiss him. Until you know what she actually did, it is highly unlikely that you and she can R.]*
> 
> *Along a lack of intimacy, where we might only have sex once on the weekend and short kissing. Last night I tried to fool around with her and it was like she couldn't stand it. [If she were really interested in R with you, this would not be the case.]
> *
> ...





gdtm0111 said:


> *Well I contacted a mediator. I'm not interested in trying to R any further, and at this point am just acting along like I normally would. Haven't been distant or anything, that I'm aware of. [Does this mean that you are giving up on your marriage? I'm confused because of what you say next.]
> *
> *I've gone thru the phone bill (it's in my name) for the last couple of days, but damn iPhones don't track all texts - ie. iPhone to iPhone, but it does track our iPhone messages to each other. I haven't found anything else, even that phone # isn't listed anywhere else.
> 
> ...





gdtm0111 said:


> *At this point I'm done, no need for MC. I rug swept last year, no question. Already read NMMNG and MMSL. [Excellent.]*


I guess what I sense is that you are still somewhat on the fence as to how to proceed. IMO, you are in a false R (she has not told you everything, is not showing real remorse, continues to hide things from you and is physically distant). In this case, the only way to move forward is to begin the process of ending your marriage. As mentioned above, this will either shock her out of the affair fog and into a mood to R (in which case you can slow down or stop the divorce process) or demonstrate to you that R is impossible.

Curious to know what you think about this.


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## AlphaHalf (Aug 5, 2012)

next time leave a sticky note in her purse saying " My wife is a cheating, remorseless b#$ch, who thinks I'm stupid and lies to my face with the worst excuses". 

Probably not the best thing to do but it made me feel better thinking about it.


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## camillaj (Aug 3, 2013)

AlphaHalf said:


> next time leave a sticky note in her purse saying " My wife is a cheating, remorseless b#$ch, who thinks I'm stupid and lies to my face with the worst excuses".
> 
> Probably not the best thing to do but it made me feel better thinking about it.


Remorseless butch?


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Go into settings->messages on her iphone. turn off using iMessage.

The other option btw is to configure another device to be using the same iTunes account and number as her phone, that second device will get all the iMessages too.

The second device can be an ipad, iPhone, Mac with the latest OSX, or one of advanced iPods that can use iMessage.

You'll need to click the warning that pops up on her phone when a new device the added to use the same iMessage identity as it.

I've got 3 devices of my own that all share an iMessage identity.


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

HOLY EFFINSH!T Shaggy the Iphone device share thing is brilliant! Mind if I steal it for my standard instruction set?

Here are step by step instructions OP

VARs and evidence

Your wife is acting funny. Her phone and email suddenly have passwords you don't know. She shuts down phone apps or changes windows on the computer whenever you enter the room. She is suddenly staying out until 2 to 5 in the morning. She has new single friends. She has lost weight and is dressing hotter to boot. Her ex contacted her 3 weeks ago and she wants “to meet to catch up at some public place” Any of this sound familiar? 

If you are reading this your gut is going crazy. “Relax”, in that there is a high liklihood that you are not crazy at least. “Your gut” is your basic instinct from the caveman period. There is something up with your mate. It is part of your mind built into you and in your DNA. You probably cant sleep. You are losing weight like crazy and are not hungry. Well if you are reading this and that is 90% of you reading this if its your first time... You are embarking on what is probably going to be the worst time of your life.

Chin up, yes I know it is damn near impossible to believe now, but I and the people at TAM here have taken dozens of men through this process. Some reconcile, most dont in the long run so be aware. Most of us hang around this grim grim place for a sense of “pay it forward” and “getting at the truth” Even in divorce, the long run the majority find love again... yes really. Often selecting a far far better future companion. Read poster BFF for a thread of disaster, divorce, recovery, and a new wonderful woman in his life. Younger and hotter, yes, but also one with better boundaries, often a far far better personality match. Oh and they get to go through that first time with her after the first I love you's have been exchanged. Just know, that for the majority, even if the marriage crashes, in six months, a year, maybe two you will wonder how you got so far so fast and how great your new life is. You will also be MUCH MUCH stronger as a person.

So. Here are your instructions. Do this now. I dont mean next week. I mean make something up within the next day and GET IT DONE! Not looking will only prolong your agony.

NO MORE CONFRONTS!! Play dumb husband for a bit. Dont drive her further underground! Soft confronts RARELY WORK AND ONLY MAKE GETTING AT THE TRUTH HARDER!!! THIS PROLONGS YOUR AGONY! NEVER give up you get your intel from the VAR. You tell her, you always got your info from a PI or someone saw them. Hard confronts with overwhelming evidence to crush all resistance are the name of the game.

Buy 2 sony ICDPX312 voice activated recorders. Best Buy sells them for like 50 bucks. DO NOT BUY THE cheapies. USE LITHIUM batteries. We have examples of 25 hour recordings using them on these sony recorders. My icon IS a Sony ICDPX312. No I do not have stock in nor work for Sony.

Setup instructions are on page 19. Also good stuff on page 31.
Use 44K bit rate for balancing file size vs quality DO NOT USE 8K!!!!! Simply put. The higher the quality the better the sound and 8K sucks. ALSO. The higher the quality the more you can manipulate the mp3 in Audacity.
Set VOR "on" see page 38
See page 40 for adding memory if necessary
Play with it yourself to get familiar. TEST IT OUT 
Turn off the beep feature. Its on one of the menus. You can even play prevent defense by going to a dollar store, buying uber-cheapie earbuds, cut off the buds but put in the jack which will actually disable the speaker for additional protection.

Go to Walmart and buy heavy duty velcro.
This is one item: Velcro Heavy-Duty Hook and Loop Fastener VEK90117: Office : Walmart.com
also
Purchase VELCRO Hook and Loop Fasteners, Sticky-Back, for less at Walmart.com. Save money. Live better.
The velcro is usually in the fabric section or the aisle with the fasteners like screws.

Use the velcro to attach the var under her seat UP INSIDE. SECURE IT WELL!!!!!! So well even a big bump wont knock it off. attach one side HD velcro from Walmart to back. USE BIG PIECE
attach other side HD velcro again UP INSIDE car seat. 

ATTACH THE CRAP out of it. It needs to stay put going over big potholes or railroad tracks.
I recommend exporting the sound files to your comp. The recorder is very cumbersome for playback.

Put the second VAR in whatever room she uses to talk in when you are not around. If you are a typical man, use your size advantage to put it someplace she cant reach, even on a chair. Beware spring cleaning season if she does it.

Usual warning. If you hear another man and perhaps a little kissing or... STOP Listening and have a trusted friend listen and tell you what went on. Knowing she is a cheat will kill you. Hearing her moan while another man is inside her will murder you to your very soul!!!!!! You are not strong enough to hear that. Dont try it. I know what I am talking about in this.

Amazon has a pen VAR that can be placed in a purse or other small place to get remote conversations. Yes the pen works.

If you need clean up the recordings get Audacity. Its free from the internet. I have used it on var work for others here to remove things like engine noise. If needed, I have done var work for four men here. RDMU is the only one who has released some of the confidentiality. Read his second thread for my reliability and confidentiality. NEVER GIVE UP YOUR ELECTRONIC EVIDENCE. They were seen by a PI or something NOT your VAR!!

The ezoom GPS has been found to be easy to buy at Radio shack and useful. There is even a tracking webpage you can track with.

Look for a burner phone. This is a second phone from a prepay service just used for cheating communications. That is often why wives let the husband "see their phone" The dont use their main phone for cheating purposes.

If your wife comes home from an alone time does she immediately change liners, change panties possibly even immediately laundering them?, shower? This can be an after the fact clean up. Amazon sells a semen detection kit called checkmate.

Look for apps on her phone like words with friends. It has a non traceable texting feature.
Here is a list 25 Apps to Help You Cheat On Your Girlfriend | Complex

OP. When was their meetup time and place before?
How much time does she have away from you and your kid?


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

That information is already posted within the evidence gathering thread and several of the iPhone specific ones, by both myself and badbane. So it exists out there in other places as well, can't believe you missed it Weightlifter?? It is good information to have. I have had this done since iMessages came out about 3 years ago, and this exact setup is what initially caught my wife. It screwed up and sent her stuff to my device (this was before they perfected it and allowed not only emails but numbers to be duplicated (it was only emails in the beginning, and an update screwed that up and duped the numbers as well. They all flooded into my Mac when I was at work, it is my personal machine that gets used for work). What a surprise and eye opener.


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

Still wanna steal it as some miss the evidence thread.

Im not an apple guy.

Now if someone knows how to kill off the gmail 1 week notice on external forwards ill be really impressed. Hate that.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

turnera said:


> VAR under the seat of her car.


secured with adhesive back Velcro so it does not slide out when the car stops.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

A year into a fake R ....why bother w/the VAR?

I regress it will give you intel on her next move and you can tell your lawyer what her agenda is so your lawyer can adapt to her game plan.

Also It might give intel on OM in which you can name him in the D papers.

Were do you plan on having her served? if its a coworker have her served at work!


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## 86857 (Sep 5, 2013)

turnera said:


> VAR under the seat of her car.


:iagree:
Do it! Find out now. Wish I had. 
FYI - I called my friend who's an OBGYN just now. He said the ONLY time shaving was necessary was before surgery for a Caesarian Section and OBGYNs never ask their patients to shave because it is unnecessary.


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## awake1 (Jan 29, 2013)

********** said:


> :iagree:
> Do it! Find out now. Wish I had.
> FYI - I called my friend who's an OBGYN just now. He said the ONLY time shaving was necessary was before surgery for a Caesarian Section and OBGYNs never ask their patients to shave because it is unnecessary.


FWW always shaved for the gyno, huh makes you wonder. 

I don't think she was cheating at the time (then again i've learned to question everything). 

Actually, come to think of it, she was always shaved, even during loonngg sex dry spells. 

:scratchhead:

Anyways, if you're interested, check the phone bill, NOT the phone. 

Until caught, cheaters almost always just use their personal phone. Get a few months back and you'll have your answer. Or follow what weightlifter said.


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## gdtm0111 (Oct 15, 2012)

carmen ohio said:


> Dear gdtm0111,
> 
> Let me make a few observations (forgive me if I repeat what some others have said):
> 
> ...


I think you hit the nail on the head. I'm trying to make this as painless on my 5 year old son. He's already asked why "mommy is so mad". I want to be clear with my intentions and keep it civil. I'd like to be able to stay clear of using any of this evidence I have. I'd like her to be served while we are sitting with her parents. Hopefully they will allow her to move in with them.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Being served is not an exact science and some lawyers never even know until they get the paper work back forn the serving agent.

Maybe I'm wrong.

But you could be sitting in the inlaws living room for days waiting for her to be served.... or you can have your inlaws serve her and they can turn the paper work into your lawyer.

Hell what do I know each state is different. My point is I hear guys posting about their old ladies getting served and it never happen when they expect it.

Geez some guys don't even find out from their lawyer...they get a phone call from ther cheating wife.

In CA I served poeple with a simple "you have been served" and throw the docs. on the ground and ran like hell!!!!!!

Most of the time poeple are cool and ask if they need to sign something and they don't. I sign a form stating that I served them.

My point here is having her served at a specific time is unrealistic in California at least. Maybe the East coast is different? IDK


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## gdtm0111 (Oct 15, 2012)

Well she'll get served either way. I guess it really doesn't matter when.

Again though, I'm using a mediator, if that matters. She's already said in the past that she won't sign anything.

I never wanted this for my son, I really had hoped for him to live with both parents (unlike mine) until he was ready and old enough to move out. I didn't want him to experience those feelings of abandonment (my mom moved several states away when I was a kid). So even though I would like to move away, I will not.


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## carmen ohio (Sep 24, 2012)

gdtm0111 said:


> I think you hit the nail on the head. I'm trying to make this as painless on my 5 year old son. He's already asked why "mommy is so mad". I want to be clear with my intentions and keep it civil. I'd like to be able to stay clear of using any of this evidence I have. I'd like her to be served while we are sitting with her parents. Hopefully they will allow her to move in with them.


Dear gdtm0111,

You are doing the right thing. Maybe the knowledge that you have finally had enough and are prepared to divorce her will cause your WW to reassess what she has done to -- and realize that she wants to save -- her marriage. I know you don't want your son to grow up with divorced parents but better that than for him to have a cuckolded father as role model.

As the guy pointed out, you can't orchestrate service. It will happen when it happens is about all anyone can say.

Stay strong and continue do what is best for both you and your son.


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