# frustration in communication



## paladinkc (Dec 22, 2015)

Marriage vows are an important vital part of holding things together but my question is where do I go from here?

I have been married now for 16 years, and I cant even count on one hand the number of times my w has ever initiated anything in the bedroom.

I am the one that does the cooking, the cleaning, the laundry on top of typically working 10 hours a day Monday through Friday and another 6 on Saturday. Sex for us stopped the moment we were married, according to her, she knew it was important if she was ever going to "get"me. The things she knew were important began to be used as tools to modify what she considered undesirable behavior, with the promise that with good behavior would come the reward.
thing is rewards never, ever came; on top of that she tells me she loves me very much, she just resents men. flash forward to now and she says i never take any interest in her, but when I get home from work, I can't even so much as enjoy a book without her being upset that I'm doing that where she can see me. As long as she can't see me and she has something to do herself its fine, just not if she is bored.
I am so tired of being caregiver, husband, provider with no emotional input unless I am at the point of irreversible breakdown, and then she is there for damage control until the storm is over, but that is it


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

It sounds like it's long past time to divorce her. If you're stuck on the vows you made, then consider that she long ago broke her vows, which IMO voids the contract. Make it official - you can do far better.


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## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

Why did you neglect yourself for so long? Take a Married but happy is right, she betrayed you long ago, and many times over. She failed to show you love and affection, put in the time and energy to make a relationship viable.

Detach, and move on.

A healthy skill is to detach and analyze your life and listen to your own pain and what is causing it. You have a 16 year-old pattern to show you the type of person she is if you took away the emotions, and that sounds like a vampire. You are not responsible for her well-being, she is responsible for that. You should prioritize yourself and see what and if your own needs are being fulfilled, whether you can compromise on it or not to some degree. If you are giving at a high lop-sided rate, then it is just a one-sided relationship.

Healthy relationships are a give and take, there has to be a healthy balance.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

paladinkc said:


> ...with the promise that with good behavior would come the reward.


Generally speaking that does NOT define a loving relationship. 

Occasionally you find it very well used in kinky relationships, but it is not the reward that is desired, it is the punishment! So if you want to venture straight from a sex starved marriage into a kinky BDSM relationship, perhaps you could teach your wife to punish you? 

Other than that bad advice that is somewhat perverted, I got nothing...

Cheers, 
Badsanta


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## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

Read the married man's sex life primer by athol kay. You need to establish boundaries and set reasonable expectations for your marriage. If you don't you'll keep getting the same results you have been living with. Also, check into marriage counseling. Do you have any strong willed male friends? They might serve as a role model for you in communicating your needs/desires in the relationship.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

You have allowed yourself to become a house-slave, all on top of working a full-time job. Why on earth would you put up with this?

Either marriage counseling and an immediate division of duties (like yesterday) or it's time to toss this one back.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

paladinkc said:


> Marriage vows are an important vital part of holding things together but my question is where do I go from here?
> 
> I have been married now for 16 years,....
> 
> ...


A couple of thoughts and questions.

First, Did she actually say in blunt plane language that she is trying ton condition you by rewarding good behavior with sex and denying sex for bad behavior?

The reason I ask is that one of the hallmarks of a "Nice Guy" is covert contracts where the NG says to himself, if I clean the house, do the cooking, due the laundry then "she" will have sex with me. As Glover in his book, No More Mr. Nice Guy points out covert contracts just don't work and especially not in regards to getting sex. So much of what you are posting sounds like you are the proto-type Nice Guy. Women don't find that attractive at all.

Reclaiming your masculinity is not about becoming a jerk. It is about figuring out what makes you happy, what challenges and defines you as a fascinating and interesting man. I strongly urge you to get a copy of Glover's book, NMMNG and study it. I would also urge you get what I consider the companion book to it which is MW Davis book The Sex Starved Marriage. They address essentially the same problem from two slightly different perspective. In doing so if you study both, you will understand the concepts, the problem and the suggested solutions.

MW Davis points out how it takes two to destroy a marriage. One of the two may just be enabling the other as opposed to active destruction. Still Davis offers hope with suggestions on how one person can change themself in a way that changed the dynamic so that the other partner can no longer get away with acting the way they have in the past. The other partner my change the way they act for the better or for the worse, but they will need to respond differently. Davis they gives advice on how to work with the differently in a way to try to save the marriage.

My advice to you is to read those two book and then "Get a Life" which is code words they both use and define slightly differently. It is about changing yourself to be a happier, more interesting more integrated man. If you do that, you will then either be able to save your marriage or when you end your marriage you will be in a much better position to find a new partner in your life who will appreciate and love you.

Good luck.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

#1 stop engaging in anything but logistical or small talk.
#2 spend your free time without her. Instead of doing the dishes, hit the gym.
#3 do not initiate sex.

Do this for a couple weeks. If she notices, tell her that you expect a wife that carries her weight and has a reasonable sex life if you're going to stay married.

If she doesn't notice or just complains about you not doing the housework, see a lawyer.

You also need to find the part of you that enabled her behaviour and tolerated this marriage for 16 years and KILL it.


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## paladinkc (Dec 22, 2015)

Thanks for your input, my belief has always been you never give up no matter the cost to yourself, it is hard to step away from someone that I love so very much. I guess thats what I get for never taking off the rose colored glasses. I need to stand up for myself, it is hard to do that when you don't believe you are worth standing up for. I think I will try counseling. one other thing, how do you go about doing a division of duties, I've never heard of such a thing, is that something legal similar to division of assets?


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

paladinkc said:


> Thanks for your input, my belief has always been you never give up no matter the cost to yourself, it is hard to step away from someone that I love so very much. I guess thats what I get for never taking off the rose colored glasses. I need to stand up for myself, it is hard to do that when you don't believe you are worth standing up for. I think I will try counseling. one other thing, how do you go about doing a division of duties, I've never heard of such a thing, is that something legal similar to division of assets?


Well, there you go.

I wonder where you draw the line between victim and volunteer. At some point, you step over the line from one to another and from that point on, it's on you. Personally I think you stepped over it a long time ago and this is in your hands now. Tell me, how do YOU feel about people who complain but refuse to change their circumstances?


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## EnigmaGirl (Feb 7, 2015)

> Sex for us stopped the moment we were married, according to her, she knew it was important if she was ever going to "get"me.


Bait-and-switch is the same thing as lying.

She lied to you about who she was and that's a deal breaker. 

On top of this:



> I am the one that does the cooking, the cleaning, the laundry on top of typically working 10 hours a day Monday through Friday and another 6 on Saturday.


And the drama:



> on top of that she tells me she loves me very much, she just resents men. flash forward to now and she says i never take any interest in her, but when I get home from work, I can't even so much as enjoy a book without her being upset that I'm doing that where she can see me. As long as she can't see me and she has something to do herself its fine, just not if she is bored.


I'd get rid of her so fast her head would spin. Then she can go resent someone else.

If I were you, I'd be asking myself "What do I need her for?"


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

paladinkc said:


> Thanks for your input, my belief has always been you never give up no matter the cost to yourself, it is hard to step away from someone that I love so very much. I guess thats what I get for never taking off the rose colored glasses. I need to stand up for myself, it is hard to do that when you don't believe you are worth standing up for. I think I will try counseling. one other thing, how do you go about doing a division of duties, I've never heard of such a thing, is that something legal similar to division of assets?


Forget "division of duties." Right now, any negotiation with her is you bringing a knife to a gun fight.

So don't. Do what you think you should do, and don't do what you think you shouldn't do.

Go to counselling, sure. Do you have good guy friends? That are willing to smack you upside the head a little bit?


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

This relationship is broken at so many levels it's hard to determine where to start. Much of this will be repeats from above.

Anytime the sex life gets changed to a bartering system, it's a huge red flag. Typically involving a controlling spouse and a subservient mate. Sorry man, you've been transformed into a house dog doing tricks for treats. Since you have been living in this arrangement for so many years, it's going to take an iron will to change it. The first step is to mentally prepare yourself to walk away from this mess. It is not a marriage by any stretch. Do all the steps needed. See a lawyer and understand your rights and responsibilities. Do further research on the net. Spend time developing a "what if" budget if you leave. Go through the financial assets and where they will land. Look at what housing will cost and where you'd like to live if you leave the current house. Do you have kids? Consider the impact and how you'll handle it. Go through it all mentally until you can say to yourself with confidence, "I can come out on the other side and be fine!".

Once you've done that you must confront her but not in the ways you have before. You must be emotionally stable, pragmatic and in control. You must state that things must change or you will leave. Lay out your expectations without interruption. If she agrees to try and salvage the marriage, immediately demand both marriage and individual counseling for her. Make it clear, this is an ultimatum, things will change or you will walk and be ready to do it. After this many years, success will be difficult but it's time for you to take control of your life. With or without her.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

@paladinkc , I'm every bit as bad as you. Feel free to look up my troubles. But what you are being told is true. I started going on a hike every weekend this past summer. It took only three weeks before she started trying to figure out how to go with me. Now that it's winter I swim 4 mornings a week. The pool is full of younger, fitter women and she knows it. The seventh emotional need is mystery. In the UK they call it being interesting. Try supplying that instead of domestic support. Domestic support is generally a male need.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

paladinkc said:


> Thanks for your input, *my belief has always been you never give up no matter the cost to yourself*, it is hard to step away from someone that I love so very much. I guess thats what I get for never taking off the rose colored glasses. *I need to stand up for myself, it is hard to do that when you don't believe you are worth standing up for.* I think *I will try counseling*. one other thing, *how do you go about doing a division of duties*, I've never heard of such a thing, is that something legal similar to division of assets?


First you are worthy of being loved by a woman. You need to do things so that you truly believe that and own it.

Next one of the really nice things about MW Davis approach in her book the Sex Starved Marriage and her other books is that she doesn't assign blame and allow that to determine who is responsible for fixing the marriage. 

I believe in marriage and that we should try to fix it and only after failing to fix it, should be work to end it, but if we end it, it should be as friends. 

I think some individual counseling for you is probably a great thing. However, I would also urge you to look into NMMNG and the SSM books as it can help you better understand what is going on.

As to division of labor, that involves communications, negotiations and setting boundaries. You will need to be able to sit down with your wife and talk to her about how you have changed and that change is going to require a change in who does what around the house. If you have taken up a new hobby that can help explain the change. The new division might involve some things being done less often (laundry, cleaning, shopping), or it might involve doing them a different way (delivery of food ordered on-line, hiring a house keeper to come in once every other week, sending clothes out to be washed), or it could involve different people doing the household labor (you do your wash, she washes her clothes or you do wash one week and she does it the next). You can also use the line, that I have done X for the past y years and it is now your turn for the next z years, so I can do some other chore that hasn't been being done adequately.

Obviously, what your goal is, is to off-load a lot of your chores/ duties. I wouldn't be surprised for you W to object to taking them on herself. If so, then she needs to explain her duties that interfere with picking up some you let go of. 

Good luck


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Amplexor said:


> Anytime the sex life gets changed to a bartering system, it's a huge red flag. Typically involving a controlling spouse and a subservient mate.


But @Amplexor what about situations where a spouse begs to use sexual bartering system in order to help motivate themselves to improve something? For example I might beg my wife to ONLY TEASE me a little bit and NOT give into my sexual advances until I have completed something important that she wants done around the house. Otherwise she would just give in to my advances and effectively "knock me out" for being able to get anything useful done! 

...wait a minute, I think perhaps I'm the one using sex to control myself. 

Yes, you are right that is probably not a good thing! Oh shît, what I am teaching my wife? I guess I better stop that right away! 

But seriously, I get ramped up when she teases me and can do anything she needs around the house! Then I'm done for when she actually gives it to me and can't do crap for the rest of the day. 

*Such a catch 22. *

This post is just a joke (kind of), that may offer some insight as to why wives might treat a husband this way. 

Badsanta


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

badsanta said:


> But @Amplexor what about situations where a spouse begs to use sexual bartering system in order to help motivate themselves to improve something? For example I might beg my wife to ONLY TEASE me a little bit and NOT give into my sexual advances until I have completed something important that she wants done around the house. Otherwise she would just give in to my advances and effectively "knock me out" for being able to get anything useful done!
> 
> ...wait a minute, I think perhaps I'm the one using sex to control myself.
> 
> ...


Sounds more like playful roll play or mutual fun as opposed to a true bartering arrangement. I have no issue with that at all.

But I am nauseated by the number of men who are willing to act as trained pets in order to get laid by their wives. Why? I used to be one of them. Not that she ever consciously held the carrot out in front of me, it was my own doing by not understanding that it made me look pathetic and needy. By not honestly confronting my wife about the lack of sex in the marriage and why it needs to be addressed as a serious issue.

If my wife were to ever, seriously, ask me to do something in exchange for sex my response would be "A blow job now would be a sufficient retainer for my services."


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

Amplexor said:


> Sounds more like playful roll play or mutual fun as opposed to a true bartering arrangement. I have no issue with that at all.
> 
> But I am nauseated by the number of men who are willing to act as trained pets in order to get laid by their wives. Why? I used to be one of them. Not that she ever consciously held the carrot out in front of me, it was my own doing by not understanding that it made me look pathetic and needy. By not honestly confronting my wife about the lack of sex in the marriage and why it needs to be addressed as a serious issue.
> 
> If my wife were to ever, seriously, ask me to do something in exchange for sex my response would be "A blow job now would be a sufficient retainer for my services."


I am similarly nauseated by women who withhold or restrict sex as a way to "train" their husbands. That's BS. Sex shouldn't be a tool for bartering. It's a joyful, bonding experience that should flow freely and frequently between partners. And men should do nice things for their wives because they love them and want to see them happy. And women should do nice things for their husbands because they love them and want to see them happy. NONE of this should be done out of obligation or in some misguided bartering attempt, ESPECIALLY when it's the "nice guy," unspoken, assumed barter arrangement that the other partner hasn't explicitly agreed to or isn't aware of.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

I eliminated the bartering in my marriage. Now whatever I do for her I do because I want to, not because she will reward me sexually. Of course, I also eliminated the sex in my marriage. But hey, no one gets everything they want in life.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

Holdingontoit said:


> I eliminated the bartering in my marriage. Now whatever I do for her I do because I want to, not because she will reward me sexually. Of course, I also eliminated the sex in my marriage. But hey, no one gets everything they want in life.


Intentionally? Or as a result of eliminating the bartering?


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

I intentionally eliminated the sex. Once you eliminate the sex, there is no ability to barter. I took away the "currency" she had used to extort concessions from me.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

Well, I suppose that's one way to go about it. But it doesn't address the actual problem, and now you're stuck in a sexless marriage.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

I was always stuck in a sexless marriage. Now I don't feel tempted to make covert contracts or to knuckle under to her demands in exchange for sexual crumbs. If I want a marriage that includes sex, I need to divorce my wife. I don't want the sex badly enough to divorce. So I'd rather be literally sexless than sacrifice my self-respect for rare occasions of masturbating into a starfish.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

Holdingontoit said:


> I was always stuck in a sexless marriage. Now I don't feel tempted to make covert contracts or to knuckle under to her demands in exchange for sexual crumbs. If I want a marriage that includes sex, I need to divorce my wife. I don't want the sex badly enough to divorce. So I'd rather be literally sexless than sacrifice my self-respect for rare occasions of masturbating into a starfish.


I have to say you sound like you have it together and thought out. I too was once into covert contracts, until I read Glover and discovered that I didn't want to be a Nice Guy anymore.

I was in a sexless marriage and actually gave up on having sex with my wife, because whenever we did have sex, she would emotionally hurt me to cause a fight so she could retain her emotional distance. 

Ultimately, I decided that I deserved to be in a loving and sexual relationship with a woman who cared deeply about me. I knew that my wife cared deeply about me and I wanted to try to see if we could make our marriage work. MW Davis Book the Sex Starved Marriage helped me a lot. Also Chapman's 5 languages of Love helped me understand what my wife needed to feel loved and cherished.

Per Davis and Glover, I worked on changing myself. Since I had promised myself that by a certain birthday that I was going to be in a loving sexual relationship, I felt that I was changing myself either for my wife's benefit or for my new girl friends benefit and my wife could choose who it would be by her actions or in-actions. That mind-set really helped me.

I learned how to forgive my wife of all anger I had toward her. I healed my emotional wounds. I learned how to love unconditionally the woman I was with and make her feel special in her love languages. My wife was amazed at the changes, but still didn't want to have sex with me. She also didn't want to be as emotionally distant as before, which made things a lot better.

Ultimately I suggested marriage counseling with a sex therapist and that really expedited the changes she was feeling toward me. It took a few months of work with the sex therapist, before my wife wanted to have sex with me and then some time before she really became comfortable and committed to being my "wife" and my sex partner for life.

I think I understand where you are. I would urge you to work on yourself and your happiness and when you decide you deserve having a loving sexual woman as your partner, even if it means divorce that you give your wife a chance at being that partner.

Good luck.


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