# No sex after her affair...



## Road Scholar

I found out about her affair on 5.1.13. Crushed me. Still does. Married 14 years with two amazing kids I adore. Love my wife. Love my life. Want to work it out. Been doing the Mort Fertel put love first approach. After initial rage I've been trying to keep things cool but not doing a great job with my emotions. Not huge outbursts or anything like that just my tact of question focused on the affair which pust the mood very negative v. positive. My wife says she wants to work it out and try to see if we can have the relationship we both want. Claims to have been unhappy over the years and focuses on all the bad stuff. I admit to not being perfect and to have definitely contributed to a disfunctional marriage looking back on it but at the time I thought things were "ok". I'm sure this is a familiar story. I think we're both trying. Doing joint counseling and we were both doing individual as well but stopped recently as it's just so exhausting and life is demanding with work and kids activities. Very draining. We are mildly affectionate. We cuddle in bed. We kiss but not passionately anymore. She stops it from going anywhere. Bottom line no sex in nearly 5 months even though we were still having sex during her 2 month affair (as far as I know). I haven't pressed for many details but I know enough. I know his name and where he lives. they worked together. I sometimes think about blowing up his life like he did to mine but sent him a text as soon as I found out and told him if he ever spoke to my wife again I would do just that. no evidence he hasn't complied. the no sex thing is killing me. I'm here trying to work **** out and she needs to feel closer to me to have sex with me. Her husband (mostly good) of 14 years and together for about 20. Says she's not feeling it. Struggling with how she feels about me and doesn't feel close to me. I'm trying to be patient and give her time and let her work through this and "put love first" build positive momentum and allow her infatuation with him pass. But any advise or suggestions? I don't believe the affair has started back up and he lives out of town but the no sex thing makes me wonder WTF. She is obviously not willing to take one for the team and it's always sorta been this way. I always want it more and she holds all the cards. Feeling rejected again as before and trying to save my marriage for my family, me, and kids - if it can be salvaged but I feel like I need more from her.


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## Shaggy

I'd bet she maybe still in contact with him.

How are you monitoring her?

Did you make her change jobs?

I think you should revisit not exposing him to his wife.


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## Thound

You have to risk losing her to keep her. I would let her know either she start getting things going or you are going to file for divorce. 

She needs to be the one doing the heavy lifting, and if you are going to play the part of the poor sap things will not get better.

Hope everything works out for you.


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## Merton Densher

Road Scholar said:


> I found out about her affair on 5.1.13. Crushed me. Still does. Married 14 years with two amazing kids I adore. Love my wife. Love my life. Want to work it out. Been doing the Mort Fertel put love first approach. After initial rage I've been trying to keep things cool but not doing a great job with my emotions. Not huge outbursts or anything like that just my tact of question focused on the affair which pust the mood very negative v. positive. My wife says she wants to work it out and try to see if we can have the relationship we both want. Claims to have been unhappy over the years and focuses on all the bad stuff. I admit to not being perfect and to have definitely contributed to a disfunctional marriage looking back on it but at the time I thought things were "ok". I'm sure this is a familiar story. I think we're both trying. Doing joint counseling and we were both doing individual as well but stopped recently as it's just so exhausting and life is demanding with work and kids activities. Very draining. We are mildly affectionate. We cuddle in bed. We kiss but not passionately anymore. She stops it from going anywhere. Bottom line no sex in nearly 5 months even though we were still having sex during her 2 month affair (as far as I know). I haven't pressed for many details but I know enough. I know his name and where he lives. they worked together. I sometimes think about blowing up his life like he did to mine but sent him a text as soon as I found out and told him if he ever spoke to my wife again I would do just that. no evidence he hasn't complied. the no sex thing is killing me. I'm here trying to work **** out and she needs to feel closer to me to have sex with me. Her husband (mostly good) of 14 years and together for about 20. Says she's not feeling it. Struggling with how she feels about me and doesn't feel close to me. I'm trying to be patient and give her time and let her work through this and "put love first" build positive momentum and allow her infatuation with him pass. But any advise or suggestions? I don't believe the affair has started back up and he lives out of town but the no sex thing makes me wonder WTF. She is obviously not willing to take one for the team and it's always sorta been this way. I always want it more and she holds all the cards. Feeling rejected again as before and trying to save my marriage for my family, me, and kids - if it can be salvaged but I feel like I need more from her.


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## Merton Densher

You will know when you have had enough in the meantime support her and hope she starts to make an appropriate effort.


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## Road Scholar

I'm not really monitoring her. I have phone access but I don't want to be checking it all the time. Plus when I have checked it no texts msgs or emails. she knows i have snooped on it and found out a lot of details so she is pretty careful with it now I would guess. still works at the same place. the guy lives out of state but good chance of IMs/emails. No way of knowing really. Been thinking about exposing him more lately. He has much to lose as I do and I know he was divorced previously.


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## thatbpguy

It is my personal experience that betrayers who are women don;t want to have sex with the betrayer as they still are sexually attached to their lover.


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## just got it 55

RS sorry you are here my brother.

First of all get right with yourself. Tell your WW what you want. Put this "Power of love "stuff aside for now. Be a strong man. No sex =no marriage. If she is holding out on you because of the "fog" for him you’re going no place fast.

You have come to the right place. You will be getting a lot of advice here. Some of it will seem counterintuitive. Think of it this way. If the Capitan of the Titanic actually increased the speed of the ship, they would have avoided the iceberg


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## Refuse to be played

Wow just wow. Check her phone records look for text and calls to this d-bags number. Install a keylogger on her whatever computer she uses. Velcro tape a voice activated recorder (VAR, the $50-60 sony model) under the driver seat and whatever room she spends the most time alone in. If she has an android, blackberry, or iPhone you can put a spy app on it and basically see everything she does on it and more. If your interested in it let me know and I'll give you the link. If you feel she is being untruthful about any details of the affair tell her to take a polygraph. If she fails or refuse to take it then you will go for divorce. 

Chances are they just took it underground. She needs a new job and the guy's wife needs to know.


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## just got it 55

Road Scholar said:


> I'm not really monitoring her. I have phone access but I don't want to be checking it all the time. Plus when I have checked it no texts msgs or emails. she knows i have snooped on it and found out a lot of details so she is pretty careful with it now I would guess. still works at the same place. the guy lives out of state but good chance of IMs/emails. No way of knowing really. Been thinking about exposing him more lately. He has much to lose as I do and I know he was divorced previously.


You are not snooping You are protecting your marriage & family


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## WalterWhite

You need to leave your cheating wife because you will never be able to trust her. Before you waste more time, ask her to move out and start a new life without you. Staying with her is to slowly drive yourself insane, and besides, you will not ever be able to trust her. Don't fool yourself.


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## barbados

How did you find out about the affair ? 

Sounds to me that it may still be going on. For her to be withholding sex while she is the one that betrayed you is a big red flag.

Also, she CANNOT work with him. PERIOD ! If she refuses to leave the job, I would file for D.


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## bandit.45

My guess is she is either still in contact with him or she is mourning the affair. 

She needs to sh!t or get off the pot 

I'd see a lawyer. Get the ball rolling. 

By the way her affair was 100% on her, regardless of the state of your marriage. And... I'm getting sick of repeating this advice. Go visit Coping With Infidelity and read the plethora of tales just like yours. 

Oh yeah, and learn the value of paragraphs.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thor

What is this Mort Fertel plan?

Being NICE to your wife is always the wrong approach in recovering a marriage from her affair. Blaming yourself for her affair is always destructive to reconciliation.

Yes you made mistakes as her husband. Yes you were not perfect. She though is 100% responsible for the choice to cheat. She had many other options, such as talking to you or asking for counseling or asking for divorce.


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## bryanp

She is not feeling it..........Oh please.
This woman betrays your marriage and humiliate you her husband by having a sexual affair for two months behind your back making you look like a fool and puts your health at risk for STD's. Many husbands would have kicked her to the curb.

Apparently there were no consequences to her actions. Would she have been so accepting and forgiving as you? You know that there may have been times that you had sex with her after she was intimate with her lover since you said the sex never stopped with her.

Out of the goodness of your heart you forgive her. Her reaction to this gift is to cut you off sexually for the past 5 months. What is wrong with this picture? You cannot be serious.

She seems to think that you are a doormat and are willing to accept all sorts of humiliation and disrespect. Tell her that her actions indicate that is not truly invested in this marriage and you will be having divorce papers drawn up. If you do not respect yourself then who will? This is all backwards. How can you not see this?


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## WorkingOnMe

Reconciliation: you're doing it wrong.


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## weightlifter

DUDE STOP IT! Honestly I can see her footprints on your back from here.

Most of the time if a WW gets caught its the BH who may not want sex. If the BH is on board the sex often comes roaring back like horny teenagers. I mean the wife is ALL OVER the BH offering all kinds of kink she would never even try before. Its called hysterical bonding.

Here are standard VAR instructions. I just cut and paste this part. BTW the correct answer to you are snooping on me, it is none of your business is "You are my wife, you ARE my business"

Your wife is acting funny. Her phone and email suddenly have passwords you don't know. She shuts down phone apps or changes windows on the computer whenever you enter the room. She is suddenly staying out until 2 to 5 in the morning. She has new single friends. She has lost weight and is dressing hotter to boot. Her ex contacted her 3 weeks ago and she wants “to meet to catch up at some public place” Any of this sound familiar? 

If you are reading this your gut is going crazy. “Relax”, in that there is a high liklihood that you are not crazy at least. “Your gut” is your basic instinct from the caveman period. There is something up with your mate. It is part of your mind built into you and in your DNA. You probably cant sleep. You are losing weight like crazy and are not hungry. Well if you are reading this and that is 90% of you reading this if its your first time... You are embarking on what is probably going to be the worst time of your life.

Chin up, yes I know it is damn near impossible to believe now, but I and the people at TAM here have taken dozens of men through this process. Some reconcile, most dont in the long run so be aware. Most of us hang around this grim grim place for a sense of “pay it forward” and “getting at the truth” Even in divorce, the long run the majority find love again... yes really. Often selecting a far far better future companion. Read poster BFF for a thread of disaster, divorce, recovery, and a new wonderful woman in his life. Younger and hotter, yes, but also one with better boundaries, often a far far better personality match. Oh and they get to go through that first time with her after the first I love you's have been exchanged. Just know, that for the majority, even if the marriage crashes, in six months, a year, maybe two you will wonder how you got so far so fast and how great your new life is. You will also be MUCH MUCH stronger as a person.

So. Here are your instructions. Do this now. I dont mean next week. I mean make something up within the next day and GET IT DONE! Not looking will only prolong your agony.

NO MORE CONFRONTS!! Play dumb husband for a bit. Dont drive her further underground! Soft confronts RARELY WORK AND ONLY MAKE GETTING AT THE TRUTH HARDER!!! THIS PROLONGS YOUR AGONY! NEVER give up you get your intel from the VAR. You tell her, you always got your info from a PI or someone saw them. Hard confronts with overwhelming evidence to crush all resistance are the name of the game.

Buy 2 sony ICDPX312 voice activated recorders. Best Buy sells them for like 50 bucks. DO NOT BUY THE cheapies. USE LITHIUM batteries. We have examples of 25 hour recordings using them on these sony recorders. My icon IS a Sony ICDPX312. No I do not have stock in nor work for Sony.

Setup instructions are on page 19. Also good stuff on page 31.
Use 44K bit rate for balancing file size vs quality DO NOT USE 8K!!!!! Simply put. The higher the quality the better the sound and 8K sucks. ALSO. The higher the quality the more you can manipulate the mp3 in Audacity.
Set VOR "on" see page 38
See page 40 for adding memory if necessary
Play with it yourself to get familiar. TEST IT OUT 
Turn off the beep feature. Its on one of the menus. You can even play prevent defense by going to a dollar store, buying uber-cheapie earbuds, cut off the buds but put in the jack which will actually disable the speaker for additional protection.

Go to Walmart and buy heavy duty velcro.
This is one item: Velcro Heavy-Duty Hook and Loop Fastener VEK90117: Office : Walmart.com
also
Purchase VELCRO Hook and Loop Fasteners, Sticky-Back, for less at Walmart.com. Save money. Live better.
The velcro is usually in the fabric section or the aisle with the fasteners like screws.

Use the velcro to attach the var under her seat UP INSIDE. SECURE IT WELL!!!!!! So well even a big bump wont knock it off. attach one side HD velcro from Walmart to back. USE BIG PIECE
attach other side HD velcro again UP INSIDE car seat. 

ATTACH THE CRAP out of it. It needs to stay put going over big potholes or railroad tracks.
I recommend exporting the sound files to your comp. The recorder is very cumbersome for playback.

Put the second VAR in whatever room she uses to talk in when you are not around. If you are a typical man, use your size advantage to put it someplace she cant reach, even on a chair. Beware spring cleaning season if she does it.

Amazon has a pen VAR that can be placed in a purse or other small place to get remote conversations. Yes the pen works.

Usual warning. If you hear another man and perhaps a little kissing or... STOP Listening and have a trusted friend listen and tell you what went on. Knowing she is a cheat will kill you. Hearing her moan while another man is inside her will murder you to your very soul!!!!!! You are not strong enough to hear that. Dont try it. I know what I am talking about in this.

If you need clean up the recordings get Audacity. Its free from the internet. I have used it on var work for others here to remove things like engine noise. If needed, I have done var work for four men here. RDMU is the only one who has released some of the confidentiality. Read his second thread for my reliability and confidentiality. NEVER GIVE UP YOUR ELECTRONIC EVIDENCE. They were seen by a PI or something NOT your VAR!!

If your wife comes home from an alone time does she immediately change liners, change panties possibly even immediately laundering them?, shower? This can be an after the fact clean up. Amazon sells a semen detection kit called checkmate.

The ezoom GPS has been found to be easy to buy at Radio shack and useful. There is even a locator webpage you can track with.

Look for a burner phone. This is a second phone from a prepay service just used for cheating communications. That is often why wives let the husband "see their phone" The dont use their main phone for cheating purposes.

There is an app out there called teensafe. Its for both Iphone and Android. It monitors texts, GPS and facebook. Needs no jailbreak. Not perfect and delayed but no jailbreak required.

Look for apps on her phone like words with friends. It has a non traceable texting feature.
Here is a list 25 Apps to Help You Cheat On Your Girlfriend | Complex


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## Thor

Find yourself a copy of the 2 ebooks "Women's Infidelity" part 1 and part 2 by Michelle Langely.


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## Want2babettrme

Road Scholar said:


> I found out about her affair on 5.1.13. Crushed me. Still does. Married 14 years with two amazing kids I adore. Love my wife. Love my life. Want to work it out. Been doing the Mort Fertel put love first approach. After initial rage I've been trying to keep things cool but not doing a great job with my emotions. Not huge outbursts or anything like that just my tact of question focused on the affair which pust the mood very negative v. positive. My wife says she wants to work it out and try to see if we can have the relationship we both want. Claims to have been unhappy over the years and focuses on all the bad stuff. I admit to not being perfect and to have definitely contributed to a disfunctional marriage looking back on it but at the time I thought things were "ok". I'm sure this is a familiar story. I think we're both trying. Doing joint counseling and we were both doing individual as well but stopped recently as it's just so exhausting and life is demanding with work and kids activities. Very draining. We are mildly affectionate. We cuddle in bed. We kiss but not passionately anymore. She stops it from going anywhere. Bottom line no sex in nearly 5 months even though we were still having sex during her 2 month affair (as far as I know). I haven't pressed for many details but I know enough. I know his name and where he lives. they worked together. I sometimes think about blowing up his life like he did to mine but sent him a text as soon as I found out and told him if he ever spoke to my wife again I would do just that. no evidence he hasn't complied. the no sex thing is killing me. I'm here trying to work **** out and she needs to feel closer to me to have sex with me. Her husband (mostly good) of 14 years and together for about 20. Says she's not feeling it. Struggling with how she feels about me and doesn't feel close to me. I'm trying to be patient and give her time and let her work through this and "put love first" build positive momentum and allow her infatuation with him pass. But any advise or suggestions? I don't believe the affair has started back up and he lives out of town but the no sex thing makes me wonder WTF. She is obviously not willing to take one for the team and it's always sorta been this way. I always want it more and she holds all the cards. Feeling rejected again as before and trying to save my marriage for my family, me, and kids - if it can be salvaged but I feel like I need more from her.



The CWI veterans will soon be here to give you good advice. What I want to point out to her is that she does not feel close to you because she put her emotional focus and energy into the other man instead of her marriage and her husband. She messed up by cheating. 100% on her alone. She needs to accept her culpability and start doing some heavy lifting to fix the damage SHE has done. Let her know that YOU will decide if you want to stay married to her cheating @$$ based on the actions you see from her.

You hold the cards here, not her. She should be doing everything she can to make you feel desired and that she wants to be with you. You need to be ready to lose the marriage to save it. If she won't give it everything she's got all in, you are ready to send her packing. Have divorce papers ready to hand to her. Tell her you can replace her with another woman who will love you, wants to have sex with you, and won't cheat!

If she's willing to spread her legs for her pos OM, who is just another lying cheater same as her, she damn well be giving it up enthusiastically for her husband. That is, if she wants to keep you. Better yet, if she wants to get you back, since she ended the marriage. You've got options.


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## tom67

Want2babettrme said:


> The CWI veterans will soon be here to give you good advice. What I want to point out to her is that she does not feel close to you because she put her emotional focus and energy into the other man instead of her marriage and her husband. She messed up by cheating. 100% on her alone. She needs to accept her culpability and start doing some heavy lifting to fix the damage SHE has done. Let her know that YOU will decide if you want to stay married to her cheating @$$ based on the actions you see from her.
> 
> You hold the cards here, not her. She should be doing everything she can to make you feel desired and that she wants to be with you. You need to be ready to lose the marriage to save it. If she won't give it everything she's got all in, you are ready to send her packing. Have divorce papers ready to hand to her. Tell het you can replace her with another woman who will love you, wants to have sex with you,, and won't cheat!


:iagree::iagree:


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## illwill

Affair is still active. Women do not want a weak man, and with no respect there can be no love. Expose the om now! Why on earth did you allow him a pardon? You can continue to do nothing and watch your world burn down. Your choice. There is no honor in reconciling without consequences


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## Want2babettrme

I apologize for the harshnes of my previous post. Got a little too worked up.


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## tom67

If the om has a wife expose him thursday please!


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## TRy

Road Scholar said:


> I admit to not being perfect and to have definitely contributed to a disfunctional marriage looking back on it but at the time I thought things were "ok". I'm sure this is a familiar story.


 It is a very familiar story. As humans, no one is perfect, yet cheaters rationalize their cheating by holding their faithful partners to a standard of unachievable perfection that they do not hold themselves to. It is a test that you cannot pass, because holding themselves as judge and jury they want you to fail. Stop buying into this. If she was unhappy, she should have told you instead of letting you think that things were OK. She did not tell you because no matter what you did she was going to cheat. Stop taking any responsibility for her cheating. Tell her that you are both responsible 50%-50% for the marriage (meaning that you tell each other what is wrong and work together to fix it), but that she is 100% responsible for cheating as cheating is never right. If you do not work things out with her, you will divorce her and not cheat, because you have a correct understanding of what is right and she does not. She has lost her moral compass, stop letting her lead the way.



Road Scholar said:


> We are mildly affectionate. We cuddle in bed. We kiss but not passionately anymore. She stops it from going anywhere. Bottom line no sex in nearly 5 months even though we were still having sex during her 2 month affair (as far as I know).


 Affair sex has a newness factor that induces strong brain drugs that makes it better sex. These brain drugs are a medical fact. You cannot compete with affair sex, which is why many people say that "once a cheater, always a cheater". She needs to get over this, and commit to fully meeting your needs for sex. At this point she was addicted to the affair sex brain drugs, and is punishing you for taking it away.



Road Scholar said:


> I haven't pressed for many details but I know enough.


 You need to be honest with yourself. You do not know enough. She is an un-remoseful cheater that has told you to get over it, and she has told you that you know enough so stop asking. You are going along with this, which is a mistake as you should never let the cheater make the rules of reconciliation. 



Road Scholar said:


> Says she's not feeling it. Struggling with how she feels about me and doesn't feel close to me.


 This shows that she is a un-remorseful cheater. Without remorse from her, your reconciliation will fail.



Road Scholar said:


> She is obviously not willing to take one for the team and it's always sorta been this way.


 This shows that she does not respect you. Without respect from her, your reconciliation will fail.



Road Scholar said:


> I always want it more and she holds all the cards.


 Stop saying that she hold all the cards because that is not true. You have cards too. The only reason that you say that is because she is willing to play her cards and you are afraid to play yours. Everyone knows that playing cards while being afraid to lose, is the surest way to guarantee that you will lose.

You need to demand true remorse and respect from her for you to be willing to give her the gift of reconciliation. You need to be willing to end the marraige and mean it, if she will not give you this. If you do not do this, your marraige will end anyways, but all on her terms.


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## warlock07

How did you catch her in the affair ?

How o you know it was 2 months ?


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## tom67

TRy said:


> It is a very familiar story. As humans, no one is perfect, yet cheaters rationalize their cheating by holding their faithful partners to a standard of unachievable perfection that they do not hold themselves to. It is a test that you cannot pass, because holding themselves as judge and jury they want you to fail. Stop buying into this. If she was unhappy, she should have told you instead of letting you think that things were OK. She did not tell you because no matter what you did she was going to cheat. Stop taking any responsibility for her cheating. Tell her that you are both responsible 50%-50% for the marriage (meaning that you tell each other what is wrong and work together to fix it), but that she is 100% responsible for cheating as cheating is never right. If you do not work things out with her, you will divorce her and not cheat, because you have a correct understanding of what is right and she does not. She has lost her moral compass, stop letting her lead the way.
> 
> Affair sex has a newness factor that induces strong brain drugs that makes it better sex. These brain drugs are a medical fact. You cannot compete with affair sex, which is why many people say that "once a cheater, always a cheater". She needs to get over this, and commit to fully meeting your needs for sex. At this point she was addicted to the affair sex brain drugs, and is punishing you for taking it away.
> 
> You need to be honest with yourself. You do not know enough. She is an un-remoseful cheater that has told you to get over it, and she has told you that you know enough so stop asking. You are going along with this, which is a mistake as you should never let the cheater make the rules of reconciliation.
> 
> This shows that she is a un-remorseful cheater. Without remorse from her, your reconciliation will fail.
> 
> This shows that she does not respect you. Without respect from her, your reconciliation will fail.
> 
> Stop saying that she hold all the cards because that is not true. You have cards too. The only reason that you say that is because she is willing to play her cards and you are afraid to play yours. Everyone knows that playing cards while being afraid to lose, is the surest way to guarantee that you will lose.
> 
> You need to demand true remorse and respect from her for you to be willing to give her the gift of reconciliation. You need to be willing to end the marraige and mean it, if she will not give you this. If you do not do this, your marraige will end anyways, but all on her terms.


Read this a few times then read again.:iagree:


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## clipclop2

I think the simplest answer is that she transferred any attraction she ever felt for you to him and them multiplied it by some factor. 

A lot of women can't go back once their feelings attach to another, moreso if they had sex with them.

I think the Fertel thing is good before a disconnect gets too far. This disconnect isn't going to resolve itself by being nice.

How "nice" is she? What nice new memories has she built? 

My impression is that you want to rug sweep and "just move on". As you can see from her side, it ain't that easy. You both have to want it and be able to withstand the battle scars that are still yet to come if you want to get somewhere.

The idea of "taking one for the team" can only be said by a man. It is about a lot more than sex. Reducing it to an equation where Having Sex = Good Marriage is thinking with your little head.

I wouldn't have to still be cheating to not want sex with my mate. I stopped wanting sex with my ex- without anyone else around. Then I stopped *having* sex with him.

I don't get an impression of a strong alpha from you. Lose her respect and you are toast.

Stopping MC because life is busy is lame. You didn't value it enough so you quit. You don't really want to go there anyway. 

There are a lot of BSs living in Fantasy Land these days. They must be giving you a good rate.

When you are ready to repair your marriage and she is on board 100% you might have a chance. You aren't there yet. 

How "on board" is she, really? 

What about your life do/did you love so much that she disconnected and looked elsewhere? How unobservant of your marriage were you? Seems like your style hasn't changed. So why should her's?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Road Scholar

asked to see her phone tonight after a minor argument... yep still having the affair


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## tom67

Road Scholar said:


> asked to see her phone tonight after a minor argument... yep still having the affair


Sorry file and EXPOSE THE POS if she comes around great if not well...you can always cancel it will take months anyway.


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## Blacksmith01

RS burn the OM with his wife. If you want any chance of R.


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## Dyokemm

Expose the A to OMW.

Make this POS scramble to save his own life. That way he cannot be a support to your WW. It is more probable than not that he is still in contact with her. 

I say this because she seems to have little interest in rebuilding things with you. She still has POS in her life somehow, either as a fantasy or, more likely, through underground contact by some method you know nothing about.

Exposing will actually deal with both these possibilities because he will almost assuredly throw your WW under the bus to save his own a**. This will both end contact and blow up her fantasy view that this s**tbag is a great guy or a soulmate.

Plus, there is the added bonus of doing both justice and the right thing. 

Its the right thing because OMW deserves to have the facts about her M and life. She should have the chance to make her own informed decisions about her life. Stop playing God by deciding what she has a right to know.

Its justice of course because this piece of human filth deserves to have his life blown up for the damage he did to your M and family.

After exposing and making the A known to all, THEN see how your foolish WW reacts. 

If she doesn't show true remorse and real effort to fix this disaster she created, then I suggest you hit her with D papers and dump her hard.


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## illwill

You tried it the nice way. No more. Expose om by friday. As for your wife you have two options file or kick her out. I'm not saying end the marriage, but unless the consequences of the affair are worst than the thrill of the affair it will not end.


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## Road Scholar

The advise on this site has been right on. I probably should have been on here 5 months ago instead of accepting her back and trying to forgive and reconcile from day 1. I was trying to be strong for my family and kids and take the pain on myself. I understand that was a bad move. It was not enough of a wake up call for her. She has still been in contact with him.

Text from tonight: "Grey goose and soda. Alone at bar. Wish u were here."

I could seriously wreak havoc on them both at work tomorrow. I'm so pissed right now. Can't believe she is blowing apart our family and will destroy our kids souls. I'm sure there is more pain and hurt ahead I guess I am just sorta numb right now. 

Really thought we were trying to reconcile and rebuild. I planned a 14 year anniversary get away this weekend - cost a G - and tonight she is sending text messages to him wishing he was there. 

I guess good guys do finish last. Really wanted to work this **** out but I had a hard enough time trusting her the first time. I don't believe I can EVER trust her after this. The last 5 months I have been in much pain fighting through this trying to be strong for my family and trying to give the benefit of the doubt and let her feelings come around. So so stupid. Catholic upbringing/training hasn't helped me with this.


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## jack.c

yeah..... she was keeping you on the edge for plan B
You must be strong and man-up.... you tried and hoped,she just was fooling with your feelings and mind!


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## Road Scholar

Oh yeah my wife has said that his wife already knows about the affair. i have tried calling several times already tonight their home phone, his cell phone....no answer.

Do i blow him up at work which could come back on my wife.


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## tom67

Road Scholar said:


> Oh yeah my wife has said that his wife already knows about the affair. i have tried calling several times already tonight their home phone, his cell phone....no answer.
> 
> Do i blow him up at work which could come back on my wife.


What do you have to lose...nothing. Go see his wife personally though.


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## illwill

What are the consequences for your wife regarding this second dday? And u should go see his wife if u cannot call her.


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## TRy

Road Scholar said:


> Oh yeah my wife has said that his wife already knows about the affair.


 This is again right from the cheaters script. They almost always tell you that the other man's wife knows, because they are trying to get you to falsely beleive that telling the other man's wife is a waste of your time. Cheaters lie. Your wife is a cheater. Your wife is liar. Do not beleive anything that she says. Tell the wife yourself.



Road Scholar said:


> Do i blow him up at work which could come back on my wife.


 As much as you want to, please resist blowing them up at work, as this will hurt you financially when alimony is being determined.


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## Road Scholar

I told her I was filing for divorce and there is no way I could ever trust her again. On top of some mud slinging her way. 

Still do not know if the physical part of the affair was reignited but for sure she is still into him which is just as bad as far as I'm concerned. 

I told her at the very least to be honest with me going forward. We looked into each others eyes on Monday night in couples therapy and she swore to tell me if she ever felt anything that she would let me know before anything took place.


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## LongWalk

File for divorce. 180. Work on weights. End all discussion of relationship, except kids. Strengthen yourself mentally. Let her face the consequences.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Road Scholar

Thanks to all for your posts.

Been into weights again over the last 5 months since DDay and looking pretty good again - even if I do say so myself. Dropped 20 lbs, bulked up, getting that washboard stomach back. 45 years old and single again. Not really looking forward to that to be honest. 

Is there any way I should take her back? I know what a fool right? I do not want to break my kids hearts. They are really great sensitive kids - 9 and 11. Breaks my heart thinking about it. We are really very close. One thing we did right anyhow, but this will absolutely crush them. 

Where can i get the rules/direction on the 180? Sorta know the concept but would like to do additional research.

Thanks ALL!


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## Road Scholar

Thanks to all for your posts.

Been into weights again over the last 5 months since DDay and looking pretty good again - even if I do say so myself. Dropped 20 lbs, bulked up, getting that washboard stomach back. 45 years old and single again. Not really looking forward to that to be honest. 

Is there any way I should take her back? I know what a fool right? I do not want to break my kids hearts. They are really great sensitive kids - 9 and 11. Breaks my heart thinking about it. We are really very close. One thing we did right anyhow, but this will absolutely crush them. 

Where can i get the rules/direction on the 180? Sorta know the concept but would like to do additional research.

Thanks ALL!


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## Road Scholar

God I feel like I do not even know who this woman is anymore.


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## whatUknow

I am saddened by your story and understand your devastation. 
I would suggest two books for you. 
Married man sex primer latest version
And
'Just friends'

Both of these books will explain a lot about your situation and hopefully point you in the right direction. 
Bottom line you need to talk to the omw and blow up his spot. You need to kick your lying cheating wife out of the house, and you need to get those divorce papers ready. They are both living in a fantasy world and you need to give them a dose of reality. You deserve better and the only one who can make that happen IS you. 

Sad to say but your being way too beta in this situation it's time to get more alpha, sack up and demand respect.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jack.c

Road Scholar said:


> Thanks to all for your posts.
> 
> Been into weights again over the last 5 months since DDay and looking pretty good again - even if I do say so myself. Dropped 20 lbs, bulked up, getting that washboard stomach back. 45 years old and single again. Not really looking forward to that to be honest.
> 
> Is there any way I should take her back? I know what a fool right? I do not want to break my kids hearts. They are really great sensitive kids - 9 and 11. Breaks my heart thinking about it. We are really very close. One thing we did right anyhow, but this will absolutely crush them.
> 
> Where can i get the rules/direction on the 180? Sorta know the concept but would like to do additional research.
> 
> Thanks ALL!



Before thinking to get her back you should FIRST work on your self and expose them both.
In order to be strong whith your kids you MUST find your mental health, otherwise you wont be able to do NOTHING right.... Your kids can be strong ONLY if they see a father sure of himself and determined and not weak.
If things get better with your wife it all depends on how you feel AFTER regaining your self controll. Also much depends on how you will be able to trust again


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## illwill

Your kids will survive. Mine did. If you want to reconcile you must put the burden on your wife to prove she deserves your love. Kick her out or file. How she responds will give you a indication of whether she deserves another chance.


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## harrybrown

Stop being her second choice. Tell her family. Tell his family. Give her the divorce papers. She is still in the affair and the affair fog. Tell her that she has to do the heavy lifting and the affair is all her fault! How would she react to you having an affair?


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## MattMatt

No sex with you. And she is blaming you for her affair.

What? She can't take responsibility for her own actions? 

Even if she is not still having sex with him dhe is still in the affair and possibly resenting you.

Which means she is sabotaging the counselling, whether she means to or not.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Will_Kane

Make sure YOU cover your tracks with this website. You don't want your wife finding the advice we're giving you.

Whatever you threatened the guy with - exposure to family, exposure at work - whatever it was, do it.

Call your family and hers and let them know what is going on. Don't tell her you are doing this. THIS IS A MUST.

Call the other man's wife and expose to her. DO NOT GIVE UP ON THIS. And DO NOT TELL YOUR WIFE ABOUT IT. Just do it.

Go and see a lawyer and start the divorce process. Do this even if you decide to try to reconcile one more time.

Start detaching from your wife. Talk only about the kids and finances. Cancel your anniversary trip, get what money you can back, or just write it off as wasted money.

In order to decide whether to reconcile or not, you need to know what is going on. You obviously can't believe her when she says she wants to make it work - she's told so many lies, you can't tell if she's lying or telling the truth anymore, at least when it comes to the affair.

Buy a couple of voice-activated recorders. Put one in her car and one in the house where she is likely to talk on the phone when you are not around. Monitor this for a week.

ONLY DECIDE WHETHER OR NOT TO EXPOSE AT WORK after you listen to the voice-activated recorders after a week. Also monitor the phone bill online, the emails, the bank account, the credit card bills - you are looking for money spent to meet him, or money spent on a burner phone.

If the VARs and the other things you look at after a week do not give any indication of repeated contact, AND if you still want to try to save your marriage, expose at work. This is a calculated risk on your part. If you wind up divorcing, it could come back to bite you if she loses her job. However, there is NO WAY you save your marriage while they still work together.

IF you decide to reconcile again:

1. She gives up her cell phone.
2. She gives up her email and uses yours.
3. She leaves the job immediately and finds another.


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## Chaparral

Road Scholar said:


> Oh yeah my wife has said that his wife already knows about the affair. i have tried calling several times already tonight their home phone, his cell phone....no answer.
> 
> Do i blow him up at work which could come back on my wife.


They always say that. Its always a lie, hoping you will not contact her. Expose them to work and especially to his wife. She has already told him you know its not over.

He doesn't love your wife, he doesn't want to lose his family. Your wife is being played or he would already have left his family. She is just a lay for him. But your wife thinks he loves her and she loves him, that's why she has been faithful to him and refused you sex. 

Whether you want to keep her or not you need to expose them. That will show her where she really stands and what a tool her boyfriend is.

Tell her all she is is a mistress to cheating pile of crap.


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## Chaparral

Road Scholar said:


> Thanks to all for your posts.
> 
> Been into weights again over the last 5 months since DDay and looking pretty good again - even if I do say so myself. Dropped 20 lbs, bulked up, getting that washboard stomach back. 45 years old and single again. Not really looking forward to that to be honest.
> 
> Is there any way I should take her back? I know what a fool right? I do not want to break my kids hearts. They are really great sensitive kids - 9 and 11. Breaks my heart thinking about it. We are really very close. One thing we did right anyhow, but this will absolutel
> y crush them.
> 
> Where can i get the rules/direction on the 180? Sorta know the concept but would like to do additional research.
> 
> Thanks ALL!


First break up the affair with exposure. Then if she realizes she is losing everything, comes you crying, begging on her knees with snot flowing, you can consider reconcilliation. Nothing but the 180 till then.

She is not your friend. She is a lying traitor to your family.

The main part of the 180 is to be strong, cheerful and aloof. Make her believe you are happy to move on be happy with another woman and leave her dirt behind you.

Ask her to leave the bedroom. Tell her you will be fighting for full custody. Do not bring up the relationship. Only discuss a future with her if she brings it up.


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## barbados

Road Scholar said:


> Oh yeah my wife has said that his wife already knows about the affair. i have tried calling several times already tonight their home phone, his cell phone....no answer.
> 
> Do i blow him up at work which could come back on my wife.


Absolutely blow it up at work. Why in the world are you worrying if it comes back on your cheating wife ? She just wasted another 5 months of your life lying to you.


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## russell28

Road Scholar said:


> Oh yeah my wife has said that his wife already knows about the affair. i have tried calling several times already tonight their home phone, his cell phone....no answer.
> 
> Do i blow him up at work which could come back on my wife.


*SHE *told you that his wife knows? I'd have a good laugh at that one, and ask her 'and I should believe you why again?'...

Not sure if you're aware, but they probably got wind that you're going to tell her and he's watching the phone, turned off the ringer.. who knows... Do a background check on her, get her cell phone number since you know her name. Call her, have a nice chat with her.. tell her you think you wife has been sleeping with her husband for possibly years (yes, my wife also started with 2 months.. it was 5 years, don't believe 2 months) Ask her if she's been suspicious and tell her what you know. I'd have already had my wife quit that job if she wanted any chance to move back in with me and R...


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## workindad

OP sorry to hear about your position. My guess is that she is still physical with posom that is why you are not getting any action from her. 

Make sure his wife knows. You can't believe a freaking word coming out of your wife's mouth. She is a liar and will protect her om and affair at your expense and the expense of your marriage and family. He is her priority now. 

Get tested for stds. She may have infected you months ago. 
File as quickly as possible
Post them both on cheaterville 
Make sure you speak to his wife. She may have some information of use to you
Stop all marriage counseling with her. It is a waste and a sham if she still has another man in your marriage. 

Believe me when I say you can be 45 single again and happy. That is not a problem. Change is difficult but do you really want a sexless marriage because your wife is having it put to her by some ahole? 

You deserve better and she deserves what she gets. 

If she wants to come crawling which may happen when you do a hard 180 and hit her with a d then you can evaluate your options at that point. As it is now you have no options other than divorce or cuckold
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## weightlifter

OP her age and state? (So we can advise you generally what you are looking forward to on the D)
Does she have a job? Is she buying top shelf liquor on YOUR DIME?
You DID save any evidence offsite right? If not do it NOW! DOCUMENT EVERYTHING!
Look up "the 180" and execute plan!

First. Should you take her back? I dont see it (as in NO!) Im the guy that quietly advised RDMU to consider R even before confrontation and that was a hella story. I saw something in his wife I simply DONT in yours. Man did I catch hell here when it came out I had advised him to consider it. There were two other cheating wives of ?100? that I have been involved in where I said the wife MAY be worth a second chance. The other two have not acknowledged it publicly so their names will go un-named.

but echoing above if you want to reconcile. For a start:
Understand most men try to combine two questions into one. The questions are:
a) Am I a man who can reconcile? There is ZERO shame in answering no to this. I know a single instance of the ?500? stories I have read here where I would have considered it. (RTBP's wife)
b) Is she doing all of the below requirements and more?
You need TWO yesses.

1) Complete NC with him
2) Complete transparency on time and all modes of communication. She agrees to this FOR LIFE! 
3) There is no such thing as get over this. You are entitled to ask a question 6 years from now about her affair.
4) Exposure to 1st circle friends and immediate family

Honestly it does not sound like she wants it so I would let the affair fog linger AND USE IT AGAINST HER! for your settlement.

OK OP now the pep talk.
First understand they do not teach how to deal with an affair. Even five months late you are ahead of the 98% of betrayed men who dont end up here for support. IT IS NOT YOUR FAULT

Understand a majority of men need to know everything. Id say about 60% do. Its simply to quiet their imaginations creating pornos with "Did they do this" mind movies. 

Let me pre answer the likely answer.

Yes she probably let him do some things she never even considered with you like anal, pictures, public sex etc.

No he was not likely much larger than you. If you are between 5.25" and 8". For many women size is not much of a factor and men not within those limits are uncommon at best. I knew a couple "adventurous" women in college. One in particular was very blunt. "If you are over 5" and under 8" its not really a factor for me. Its how he uses it. So yes it does matter... for tiny and huge.

Hit meetup.com for things like hiking groups to get your mind off it.

Now we are going on Weightlifter's magic time machine. Times vary
Sounds like your shock fog is beginning to lift and these are estimates. Get with your friends and start hitting house parties. This serves TWO purposes the first is getting your mind off it and your social life going. The second purpose will become clear below

+8 weeks. House party 1. Social connections strengthen
+10 weeks. House party 2. social connections further strengthen and a random 32 year old woman flirts with you. Nothing happens but you never even felt your ego click from 0% to 1%
+12 weeks. House party 3. You see same woman again. You talk. She heard your story. She looks you dead in the eye, "wanna hook up and celebrate your new freedom?" You fvck the crap out of her with her bent over the trunk of your car. Your ego clicked from 1% to 60%! In 15 minutes! You feel like a new man. With your ego better than half your heart will accelerate its healing.
+20 weeks you date some random girl 4 times. Nothing happens
+26 to 104 weeks you meet wife 2.0 and enjoy the ride. 

Yes some cynic is gonna say wife 2.0 will cheat on you. Life is all about chances. You say it wont happen but statistically you WILL marry again and have a good selection of women to choose from. Be picky.

Understand also you were around 30 when you were last single. The playing field moderately favored women at that age. The tables are turned now and favor the male.


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## bandit.45

Sorry you're going through this. She sounds unremorseful and probably never was. She most likely checked out on you even before her affair. 

Keep taking care of yourself and before anything else go see a lawyer and get the D rolling. Expose the OM to his wife. Guarantee you your wife is lying and his wife is clueless about what is going on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bandit.45

Oh, and very, very few waywards ever come "crawling back". That's a myth by and large. Don't hope for it and don't expect it. Pride is stronger than remorse. Remember that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## warlock07

Data recovery on her phone..

Keylogger on home computer

GPS on her vehicle

Exposure to family

Exposure at work..(legal opinion on this)


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## tom67

DNA test the kids too. They are about $100 each look online.


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## tom67

If you guys have a joint bank acct. split it asap before she wipes you out and carry a voice activated recorder on you to avoid a false dv charge and you get kicked out of the house. and once again go see the omw. Hang in there.


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## Shaggy

At this point yes , you blow him up at work. 

You don't want this guy around your kids down the road, so do what's needed to kill the affair. Exposure at work helps there - he will have both his wife and his job as reasons to dump your wife.

Sadly, this is typical of affairs and especially work affairs where you rug sweep the affair. It's like an infection where you didn't finish taking all the antibiotics. You only killed off the weak parts, but the root of the infection survived and continued to grow.

You need to go nuclear this time to really kill it off.

The fact that she didn't already leave you for him means that isn't what she sees as a viable option. She's willing to accept him as her BF, conspirator and lover, but she didnt want him enough to hones and divorce you.

Use that fact.

Use the Vars as other have said.

Pull the phone records from the carrier.

Find his home address and send details of the affair via registered mail to his wife. Send them staggered by a couple days.

Have a female friend or family member go with you to visit the wife if possible. Having a woman along makes you less threatening and more believable.

But today your mission is to blow him up at work and to post him to cheaterville.com. Act quickly before he can put up blocks.

Go dark on your wife by going to a hotel for the next couple of nights. Don't talk to her, don't respond to any texts.


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## badmemory

RS,

Most all BS's make regrettable mistakes when they get nuked with infidelity. I also wished you had found this sight after your first Dday, because some of your mistakes increased the chances of a second Dday. But now that it's here, don't make them again. This time:

- Expose. Make this A as uncomfortable for her as possible; whether you decide to R or not. Find his wife and tell her. Tell your family and her family. Wait and see what happens before you decide to expose her at work; but keep that as an option should it continue.

- Detach from her by implementing the 180. Be polite, don't loose your cool. Your aim is to show apathy. Don't talk to her unless it's about kids, finances, or the D.

- Just as it should have after the first Dday, your mindset should be that you're heading straight to D. Keep heading there for now. D's take months and that gives you plenty of time to think things through and watch how she reacts.

- She is not showing remorse so I don't think you have much chance for R. But if by some small chance you decide to try again; do not accept anything less than her accepting every consequence and demonstrating complete remorse; and that includes, transparency, affection, and yes, *sex*.

Be prepared to end your marriage to have a "small" chance to save it.


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## clipclop2

Road Scholar said:


> asked to see her phone tonight after a minor argument... yep still having the affair


Sorry to hear but glad you asserted yourself. That's what it takes.... And take no prisoners
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shaggy

At least you learned your lesson about rugs sweeping and making bargains with cheaters and liars,

They always betray those bargains.

Don't make those mistakes again.

Nuke the OM

Don't trust your wife without verification.

Don't bargain or negotiate. Instead state your terms and only accept your terms - no affair, no contact, full transparency, new job.


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## Road Scholar

Without defending her whatsoever but rather to portrary an accurate picture. She is remorseful now, again, after having been caught. Tears, snot, sobbing, etc. all that. I was unmoved. 

Last night, as I held her phone in my hand, was looking at her text to him, "Wish you were here", and asked her if she has been in contact with him at all. Her reply, "No, not at all." 

So remorseful of where we are at in our marriage maybe but not true remorse for her actions. I mean she despises what she did and who that makes her because she is has always railed against cheaters and now she is one. Just like her mother whom she has had deep resentment and other "issues" with over the years. 

Still last night was talking about how unhappy she was. I never knew it. First idea I really had how serious things were was 2 days before DDay. That was my wakeup call and was prepared to do whatever it took to save us, change improve myself, rededicate, etc. Two days later I found out the truth of what had been going on.


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## Truthseeker1

Road Scholar said:


> Without defending her whatsoever but rather to portrary an accurate picture. She is remorseful now, again, after having been caught. Tears, snot, sobbing, etc. all that. I was unmoved.
> 
> Last night, as I held her phone in my hand, was looking at her text to him, "Wish you were here", and asked her if she has been in contact with him at all. Her reply, "No, not at all."
> 
> So remorseful of where we are at in our marriage maybe but not true remorse for her actions. I mean she despises what she did and who that makes her because she is has always railed against cheaters and now she is one. Just like her mother whom she has had deep resentment and other "issues" with over the years.
> *
> Still last night was talking about how unhappy she was.* I never knew it. First idea I really had how serious things were was 2 days before DDay. That was my wakeup call and was prepared to do whatever it took to save us, change improve myself, rededicate, etc. Two days later I found out the truth of what had been going on.


WS use this as a common excuse for their affairs...


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## Jasel

Road Scholar said:


> Still last night was talking about how unhappy she was. I never knew it. First idea I really had how serious things were was 2 days before DDay. That was my wakeup call and was prepared to do whatever it took to save us, change improve myself, rededicate, etc. Two days later I found out the truth of what had been going on.


It's very common for cheaters to rewrite their marital history to place the blame on their spouse or alleviate blame from themselves. That way they can place all the heavy lifting of the marriage onto you while they cake eat with their AP. She had YOU willing to jump through hoops for your marriage while she was pissing all over it herself. There's a good chance your marriage, as well as her happiness, was nowhere near as bad as she claimed but she had to have a reason to rationalize her cheating not just to you but to herself. Not to mention the fact that you are NOT responsible for her happiness anymore than you're responsible for her decision to cheat.


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## tom67

Jasel said:


> It's very common for cheaters to rewrite their marital history to place the blame on their spouse or alleviate blame from themselves. That way they can place all the heavy lifting of the marriage onto you while they cake eat with their AP. She had YOU willing to jump through hoops for your marriage while she was pissing all over it herself. There's a good chance your marriage, as well as her happiness, was nowhere near as bad as she claimed but she had to have a reason to rationalize her cheating not just to you but to herself. Not to mention the fact that you are NOT responsible for her happiness anymore than you're responsible for her decision to cheat.


Typical cheater speak.:iagree: If it was strained it was because there were 3 in the marriage.


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## alte Dame

You know by now that your WW is following the typical pattern of a cheating spouse.

One of the things that this means is that she is rewriting your marital history in order to justify her actions.

Please try to ignore her justifications. There is a reason that you were 'unaware' of her unhappiness before her affair. It's because the cheating is the cause of your marital problems, not the gripes that she is manufacturing and/or magnifying now.

You've gotten excellent advice from the very experienced people here, mostly men who know what to expect from a wife who is unfaithful. Please take their advice.

Be strong and stay honorable. This is how you make things right for your children. As long as they know you love them and are there to take care of them, they will be OK.

Do the 180 for yourself:

The Healing Heart: The 180

I'm sorry that you have to go through this. Your WW is still lying badly to you. Please find as much truth as you can and do the right thing for yourself.


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## Road Scholar

I may get nuked by you all for this but I am a rookie at this and somehow still in love with my wife after all this. I never thought that would be the case by the way. EVER. My motto I would tell people was run don't walk away. I am a strong and confident person and yes this has crushed me to some degree but I am fighting through it and will be back at some point to my former self. I love my family. I love my kids. I still love my screwed up wife.

I sent her a text this am that for the last 5 months I have done nothing but show her I truly love her and wanted to work on building that relationship we talked about, letters, cards, outpouring of my soul to her, fun outings, dates, affection, everything she felt she was missing. She has shown me the opposite. How bad everything was. How unhappy she has been. Everything I did to screw it up and make her unhappy basically. Worse yet still being in communication with him - or worse don't know if the physical contact was rekindled. (After all he is married and out of state - but realize its a possibility.) I let her know I plan to file for Divorce but also said the ball is in your court if you want to save this marriage. Left the door open a little I guess. Do I shut it at least for now? 

NOW, she is asking (texting because I am not answering my phone) if I would give her another chance. That she doesn't want to lose me and family. That I am a wonderful, kind, caring compassionate man and she has taken me for granted.

Now what? File and let it play out. Finally feel like i have a little juice after eating sh*t for 5 months. 

The first 5 months have been a yo-yo back and forth up and down. maybe because I was letting her play me for the fool I was. If I give her another shot, will the next 5 months be any better? Can I trust her again? I would definitely be calling the shots this time around but still. And I am not saying I would do this immediately if at all. Just curious as to what you all think. I'm not a wuss but if this can be salvaged I still think it might be worth it. Of course, i could be wrong too.


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## jerry123

Of course she is unhappy, you just ruined her "perfect lie". She was happy cheating then coming home to you. Your are here safe and secure husband and OM is her naughty/sexy guy. 

Now she is losing you and losing her OM. 

If you stay with her, the next time she cheats it will be much more discrete. She knows how to cover her tracks now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Road Scholar

"The one who is most willing to walk away from the relationship, is the one who controls the relationship." 

I really like this. Thank you all for the advise here! This is very helpful providing me clarity and support.


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## jerry123

Exactly, you were a model husband for 5 months and she did this to you. What excuse can she possibly come up with to justify cheating. She is/was in such a deep fog. 

You need time to think this all out. Away from her. In the end it's your decision. 

In any event, OM wife NEEDS to know what her husband was doing. Just like you would want to know.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WyshIknew

First thing you have to do is nuke OM.

IMHO.

If you want to reconcile that is.


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## Jasel

It sounds like your mistake was insta-forgiving her and trying to nice her out of her affair. Neither one of these work (especially for men with cheating wives) and more often than not make the situation worse, yet they're pretty common mistakes. Your wife disrespected you by betraying you in one of the worst possible ways that she could short of stabbing you. And in response you gave her even more love and put more effort towards your marriage which caused her to lose even more respect for you. Women do not respect doormats and weak men. Which is exactly how you came off by behaving the way you did after D-Day.

She needs to think that she is on the verge of losing her marriage. Before she didn't have to worry about it. She had you willing to put up with a sexless marriage for months on end after cheating on you while having her affair partner on the side. She needs to face CONSEQUENCES by YOU.

There's nothing wrong with still loving your wife but if you think your love and giving 100% to your marriage is going to get her out of her affair fog and in a legitimate reconciliation, then you're dead wrong.

In order to save your marriage you need to be willing to lose it. Your problem is (and it's not surprising or unnatural) is you're still looking at ways to salvage your marriage. The only way accomplish that at this point is to do what you should have done from the start. Your first step should be to see a lawyer, you should also be exposing far and wide to family and friends about this 2nd betrayal especially if you didn't do it the first time around. Stop telling her about your feelings, stop telling her how much you love her, stop telling her how much you want to work on the marriage, don't even try have sex with her (it would probably be better if you made her sleep in a different room or did so yourself), etc. 

File for divorce, have papers drawn up, and give them to her or have her served. Doesn't mean you can't put it on hold later, but she needs to know that you are more than willing to walk away from her and she needs to see you taking steps to move on with your life. And do NOT feel the need to tell her what you're doing, plan on doing, or give her any explanations. At this point you owe her none.

Read up on the 180 and start doing it ASAP. 

SurvivingInfidelity.com - Support for Those Affected by Infidelity


----------



## badmemory

Road Scholar said:


> She is remorseful now, again, after having been caught. Tears, snot, sobbing, etc. all that. I was unmoved.


Cheating wives that withhold sex from their husbands after Dday are not remorseful.

Cheating wives that continue contact with the POSOM after Dday are not remorseful.

What she is now, is feeling guilty for being caught; maybe even for hurting you - but that is *NO* where near the definition of true remorse. She wasn't then and I doubt she is now.


----------



## tom67

jerry123 said:


> Of course she is unhappy, you just ruined her "perfect lie". She was happy cheating then coming home to you. Your are here safe and secure husband and OM is her naughty/sexy guy.
> 
> Now she is losing you and losing her OM.
> 
> If you stay with her, the next time she cheats it will be much more discrete. She knows how to cover her tracks now.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


One thing at a time. You expose to his wife first and then if she is really mad at you later, you know it's time to file. If her ACTIONS not words show real remorse you will have time to stop the process. The ball is in your court now and you get the power back through exposure.


----------



## Refuse to be played

If you want to R then there has to be consequences. I don't know if you have but tell the OMW about the affair. She quits her job now. Then have your W write out a NC letter that you read and send. She gives you all passwords and pin #s. Still do the keylogger, VAR, and GPS in the car to keep tabs. She gets her a## in IC and you two go to MC. Have her tell you every thing about the affair and say that you plan on having her take a polygraph.

Question. What type of phone does she have?


----------



## Truthseeker1

Refuse to be played said:


> *If you want to R then there has to be consequences.* I don't know if you have but tell the OMW about the affair. She quits her job now. Then have your W write out a NC letter that you read and send. She gives you all passwords and pin #s. Still do the keylogger, VAR, and GPS in the car to keep tabs. She gets her a## in IC and you two go to MC. Have her tell you every thing about the affair and say that you plan on having her take a polygraph.
> 
> Question. What type of phone does she have?


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:


----------



## tom67

One thing that was a positive is that she recorded the confession for you to play for the omw I have to give her credit there.


----------



## warlock07

Road Scholar said:


> Without defending her whatsoever but rather to portrary an accurate picture. She is remorseful now, again, after having been caught. Tears, snot, sobbing, etc. all that. I was unmoved.
> 
> Last night, as I held her phone in my hand, was looking at her text to him, "Wish you were here", and asked her if she has been in contact with him at all. Her reply, "No, not at all."
> 
> So remorseful of where we are at in our marriage maybe but not true remorse for her actions. I mean she despises what she did and who that makes her because she is has always railed against cheaters and now she is one. Just like her mother whom she has had deep resentment and other "issues" with over the years.
> 
> Still last night was talking about how unhappy she was. I never knew it. First idea I really had how serious things were was 2 days before DDay. That was my wakeup call and was prepared to do whatever it took to save us, change improve myself, rededicate, etc. Two days later I found out the truth of what had been going on.


You are confusing guilt with remorse. Remorse is not the same as feeling bad for getting caught. Remorse is more than crying for "hurting you". 

Take your time understanding what she actually did. Your history and respect for this woman is coming in the way of properly analyzing the situation and her actions


----------



## Thor

Talk to a lawyer asap to find out how things really work in your location for divorce. You need this info.

Are you in an at-fault state? Some states are no-fault yet they do allow for infidelity to be a factor in some aspects such as alimony.

Your kids will be fine either way this goes. If you stay just for them, you will be miserable and it will show, and it will negatively affect them. They are better off with you happy, even if it is D for you.

Don't nuke your wife's job right now. If you D, it could affect her alimony. You need your lawyer's input on this one. He/she will say don't nuke, just let the process be simple. But, you may choose to expose at their work anyway. Be aware of the alimony issues if your wife is unemployed - you may be paying a lot of alimony for a long time, plus she may get more physical custody of the kids and you'll pay more child support.

I'm all for exposing far and wide except at work until you have more info. Then, when the timing suits your interests, nuke posom and stbxw at work.

Note that the employer won't care unless they improperly used company time or assets, or if they badly violated a policy.


----------



## arbitrator

bandit.45 said:


> My guess is she is either still in contact with him or she is mourning the affair.
> 
> She needs to sh!t or get off the pot
> 
> I'd see a lawyer. Get the ball rolling.
> 
> By the way her affair was 100% on her, regardless of the state of your marriage. And... I'm getting sick of repeating this advice. Go visit Coping With Infidelity and read the plethora of tales just like yours.
> 
> Oh yeah, and learn the value of paragraphs.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


*I couldn't agree more! And if I were you, I'd get fastly checked out for the presence of STD's, since it's more than evident that, for some inordinate period of time, she was actively boinking you both, all while treating you like a mushroom ~ just keeping you in the dark and feeding you sh!t!
*


----------



## warlock07

Road Scholar said:


> I may get nuked by you all for this but I am a rookie at this and somehow still in love with my wife after all this. I never thought that would be the case by the way. EVER. My motto I would tell people was run don't walk away. I am a strong and confident person and yes this has crushed me to some degree but I am fighting through it and will be back at some point to my former self. I love my family. I love my kids. I still love my screwed up wife.
> 
> I sent her a text this am that for the last 5 months I have done nothing but show her I truly love her and wanted to work on building that relationship we talked about, letters, cards, outpouring of my soul to her, fun outings, dates, affection, everything she felt she was missing. She has shown me the opposite. How bad everything was. How unhappy she has been. Everything I did to screw it up and make her unhappy basically. Worse yet still being in communication with him - or worse don't know if the physical contact was rekindled. (After all he is married and out of state - but realize its a possibility.) I let her know I plan to file for Divorce but also said the ball is in your court if you want to save this marriage. Left the door open a little I guess. Do I shut it at least for now?
> 
> NOW, she is asking (texting because I am not answering my phone) if I would give her another chance. That she doesn't want to lose me and family. That I am a wonderful, kind, caring compassionate man and she has taken me for granted.
> 
> Now what? File and let it play out. Finally feel like i have a little juice after eating sh*t for 5 months.
> 
> The first 5 months have been a yo-yo back and forth up and down. maybe because I was letting her play me for the fool I was. If I give her another shot, will the next 5 months be any better? Can I trust her again? I would definitely be calling the shots this time around but still. And I am not saying I would do this immediately if at all. Just curious as to what you all think. I'm not a wuss but if this can be salvaged I still think it might be worth it. Of course, i could be wrong too.


More manipulative bull****. You had to catch her in a lie to get this remember ? What about the last few months. Whatever happened to basic common dignity ?

At this point, her words could well b a delay tactic to get the best outcome for her before she leaves for the other man.

This might be

1) Worried about you exposing the OM and her at her work place.

2) Her image in front of family and friends(and somehow turn her affair into we weren't happy and separated)

3). Worried about exposing OM to her wife and make the affair untenable like the last time.

or could be any f*cked up reason.

Put yourself in your wife's place. What should you be feeling for your spouse to actually do what she did to you ? Your desperation for your family and your kids could end both your kids and you in a much worse position. Nice guys don't finish last until they want to. 

Remember how you acted the last time. This isn't much different. If you want a different outcome, try a different path. A path which you won't regret.

Also, make her get tested for STDs. She was not being intimate with you because she was remaining faithful to her OM. Do you realize how f*cked up this is. Proceed with divorce unless you see very good reasons not to.


----------



## alte Dame

Start acting strong and consistent. Follow the advice to nuke the OM with his BW. Do not waver or act reactive with your WW.

Tell your WW that you need some time to consider what you will do for your life. Take the time to get as much info as you can on the sly about the A and do the 180. Make it clear to her that divorce is the most likely option.

Acting and staying strong and resolute is your best chance of saving this. She needs to know that she is not in control of your life anymore & that you can and will decide to divorce her.

(And btw, it's quite normal to still love your WW. This is an integral part of the living hell that cheating sets upon you.)


----------



## Thor

alte Dame said:


> (And btw, it's quite normal to still love your WW. This is an integral part of the living hell that cheating sets upon you.)


:iagree:

Good post, alte.


----------



## Acabado

False reconciliations are the worse. Personaly I wouldn't stay but this just my opinion, others can.
I'd file anyway. D takes time, also you can divorce and give the relationship a chance afterwards if she's really interested (Isn't it a real test?), you can even put a stop to it last minute and change to a post nuptial as a requirement... Your call.
She has time to fight for YOU.
If she persist asking a third chance you can tell her that as long as she complies with some basic rules and you see continued improvements on her part you won't renounce to give the relationship/marriage an honest last shot regardless the legalities but you will be watching her closely, her actions, her mindset. Her words means nothing, she's a proven, sneaky liar. She's the one to prove herself to you, to prove you she's becoming someone worthy of that chance, someone safe to be with, that she loves you enough to make that effort.
She's not the first woman in this earth in this potition and there's tons of resources out there to get advice on how to fix what's broken, counselors, books, online...
You can tell her what your boundaires and expectations are in order to don't close the door definitely without looking back, including of course a full disclosure of all her transgressions since you started dating to the date. Tell her there's zero garantees and your mindset is simply self protection and moving on with or without her.
I'd quit MC altogether for now, it was a complete joke, a smoke screen she used to move the target everyday while eating her cake, she's the one who needs to find out what the hell is wrong with her. Tell her you won't buy the rewritten version in her head anymore and that you won't keep being played like a puppet as you were the last five months. That you will be exclusively focused on making yourself happy.
She's soooo unhappy, fine, get a divorce and stop the hipocresy and mind games.

Find out that BW and expose her, nuke OM for good. And please, if you really comtemplate a last shot get every snooping tool in the arsenal.


----------



## arbitrator

alte Dame said:


> *(And btw, it's quite normal to still love your WW. This is an integral part of the living hell that cheating sets upon you.)*


*Agreed! No truer words were ever spoken!*


----------



## TDSC60

I would get the Divorce ball rolling. You can stop it at anytime right up until the judge has pen in hand to finalize it.

States differ in length of waiting periods so a lawyer can tell you how much time you have.

If you want to give R a shot use this time to watch her actions and determine if she is truly remorseful and true wants you only. Personally, I'm not sure if I could have enough faith in her to even try again after the lies and betrayal you have already gone through. But that is up to you.

If you believe her then the D can be stopped or put on hold, if not or there is a D-Day 3, you are ahead of the game.

You absolutely HAVE to contact OMW personally to verify that she knows. Consider having her quit her job since company email offer a communication method that you cannot monitor (at least it is very difficult.)

Good luck


----------



## Thor

Acabado said:


> She's soooo unhappy, fine, get a divorce and stop the hipocresy and mind games.


Morituri had a spectacular post a year or so ago about "Just let her go". Give her what she wants. It was brilliant, though you summed it up nicely in one sentence.

For the Nice Guy, I think this is the best approach. We Nice Guys are too oriented towards trying to understand what and why she did what she did, and we try to be considerate of our spouse while trying to fix the marriage. What a disaster!!!


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## hopefulgirl

You mentioned a Catholic upbringing - are you a practicing Catholic? That might have something to do with your reluctance to divorce. Certainly your upbringing, even if you're not practicing, is having an effect on your being reluctant to file.

But I think it's still a good idea to file. Even if you don't really have the heart right now to follow through. You can follow through or not - see what happens as time goes by. Your wife needs to know you mean business. She believes she can play you - she did before. 

Of course you still love her - but don't tell her that. Read the link to the 180. You need to be doing that right now. You need to detach in order to start thinking more clearly. Your heart has been ripped out and stomped on. You've been traumatized. You can't make good decisions right now. But you can detach from her, and doing the 180 and filing for divorce will help you to buy some time and you can make decisions later. Focus on taking care of yourself and your kids now. Maybe trying to reconcile will be a possibility, and I can understand wanting to do it for their sake. But a sham of a marriage will not be doing them any good.

Consequences are absolutely necessary. R may be a possibility, but not right now. You need to detach first and see if she's "sorry I got caught" or feeling true remorse, as in "I'm deeply sorry for the pain I've caused you" - there IS a difference.

The book "NOT Just Friends" by Shirley Glass provides very good insight into affairs and rewriting marital history (trust me - she wasn't as unhappy as she's now claiming she was) and some good guidelines about R, if you do decide to go that route.


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## tom67

Stop looking weak in front of her and detach go out a few nights a week don't tell her where you are going. 'I'll ask what aguy here Machievelli usually asks, do women hit on you, are you in shape with the 32 inch waste or better and a v torso that's what gets the ladies going in their limbic brain. Believe it or not if a woman was to hit on you with your wife present, she would really change her tune.


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## tom67

Chateau Heartiste


----------



## Ovid

File for D. You can stop the D at any time, but you need to show her you are serious.

Do not agree to R or D for 90 days. Give yourself time to clear your head and think clearly.

Do the 180 immediately.

Give her a list of demands and tell her if she does not meet them there will be no reconcilliation. Tell her you will only consider R if she meets all of the demands.

Your demands:
0. She gets tested for STDs.
1. A complete written timeline of her affair. Have her sign it.
2. No contact letter sent to OM. 
3. She helps you expose OM to his wife.
4. She turns over all texts, emails, and photos from her to the OM, or the OM to her.
5. She destroys any clothing she wore for OM.
6. She gets a new job, phone number, and email.
7. Complete transparency. All passwords etc.
8. Post nup agreement.
9. She has to tell your family her family and mutual friends about the A.

Tell her you will only consider R if she does all of these things, and until they are done you will continue with D.

When you give the list make it clear that you are filing for D and will not even consider stopping the D until she meets your requirements. Then go no contact with her until she is served.


----------



## Hicks

Road Scholar said:


> I may get nuked by you all for this but I am a rookie at this and somehow still in love with my wife after all this. I never thought that would be the case by the way. EVER. My motto I would tell people was run don't walk away. I am a strong and confident person and yes this has crushed me to some degree but I am fighting through it and will be back at some point to my former self. I love my family. I love my kids. I still love my screwed up wife.
> 
> I sent her a text this am that for the last 5 months I have done nothing but show her I truly love her and wanted to work on building that relationship we talked about, letters, cards, outpouring of my soul to her, fun outings, dates, affection, everything she felt she was missing. She has shown me the opposite. How bad everything was. How unhappy she has been. Everything I did to screw it up and make her unhappy basically. Worse yet still being in communication with him - or worse don't know if the physical contact was rekindled. (After all he is married and out of state - but realize its a possibility.) I let her know I plan to file for Divorce but also said the ball is in your court if you want to save this marriage. Left the door open a little I guess. Do I shut it at least for now?
> 
> NOW, she is asking (texting because I am not answering my phone) if I would give her another chance. That she doesn't want to lose me and family. That I am a wonderful, kind, caring compassionate man and she has taken me for granted.
> 
> Now what? File and let it play out. Finally feel like i have a little juice after eating sh*t for 5 months.
> 
> The first 5 months have been a yo-yo back and forth up and down. maybe because I was letting her play me for the fool I was. If I give her another shot, will the next 5 months be any better? Can I trust her again? I would definitely be calling the shots this time around but still. And I am not saying I would do this immediately if at all. Just curious as to what you all think. I'm not a wuss but if this can be salvaged I still think it might be worth it. Of course, i could be wrong too.


Dont' decide now.

Come up with all the things she must do to stay married to you.

Examples:
No contact letter. Quit her job. Password transparency. Anal Sex 7 times a day. Exposure to her parents. Lie detector test. Write down the whole story. Post Nup. The possiblities of what you can demand are endless.

Observe her level of remorse and committment to your marriage through her attitidue and willingness to do these things.

You don't have to play fair. You can tell her yes you are willing to stick together, but choose not to whenver you want.


----------



## Chaparral

There is no hurry in giving her an answer. She needs to sweat this out. She failed as a person not because she was unhappy, she failed because she was weak to temptation. People make their own happiness. Did she give you a chance to make changes ? Did you ignore her or did she just now need an excuse?

Lget the two books linked to in my signature. MMSLP is just for FRIENDS is for you both.

Keep her feet to the fire and see if she is worth keeping.

Expose the om as fast as possible. You can tell what what with your wife if she has a fit for hurting the Posom.


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## Ovid

You need to make it clear that she has to earn you back. That she chose to destroy your M on her own, and that it is now up to her to prove to you that she really does want you and that you are her first choice, and not her plan B.

You may own half of the problems in the M, but she owns all of the A.


----------



## Ovid

While you are waiting on her to start the list have the kids DNA tested. It doesn't matter if you are 100% sure they are yours. Do it to show her how completely she has destroyed your faith in her, and that you must now question everything in your past.


----------



## 6301

Road Scholar said:


> I may get nuked by you all for this but I am a rookie at this and somehow still in love with my wife after all this. I never thought that would be the case by the way. EVER. My motto I would tell people was run don't walk away. I am a strong and confident person and yes this has crushed me to some degree but I am fighting through it and will be back at some point to my former self. I love my family. I love my kids. I still love my screwed up wife.
> 
> I sent her a text this am that for the last 5 months I have done nothing but show her I truly love her and wanted to work on building that relationship we talked about, letters, cards, outpouring of my soul to her, fun outings, dates, affection, everything she felt she was missing. She has shown me the opposite. How bad everything was. How unhappy she has been. Everything I did to screw it up and make her unhappy basically. Worse yet still being in communication with him - or worse don't know if the physical contact was rekindled. (After all he is married and out of state - but realize its a possibility.) I let her know I plan to file for Divorce but also said the ball is in your court if you want to save this marriage. Left the door open a little I guess. Do I shut it at least for now?
> 
> NOW, she is asking (texting because I am not answering my phone) if I would give her another chance. That she doesn't want to lose me and family. That I am a wonderful, kind, caring compassionate man and she has taken me for granted.
> 
> Now what? File and let it play out. Finally feel like i have a little juice after eating sh*t for 5 months.
> 
> The first 5 months have been a yo-yo back and forth up and down. maybe because I was letting her play me for the fool I was. If I give her another shot, will the next 5 months be any better? Can I trust her again? I would definitely be calling the shots this time around but still. And I am not saying I would do this immediately if at all. Just curious as to what you all think. I'm not a wuss but if this can be salvaged I still think it might be worth it. Of course, i could be wrong too.



Ask yourself this. If she wasn't happy with a wonderful, kind, caring, compassionate man before, why is she so suddenly wanting to be with you now. You can bet she hasn't had an epiphany. She knows that she pushed you to the edge thinking that you would roll over and play dead since that's what you have been doing since you found out about her affair.

Right now she knows she has her boobs in the ringer and she's not only going to lose the Grey Goose drinking OM but now her home so you can bet the house that she will say anything/do anything to hold on to something. 

She told you she wasn't happy so that's the reason for the cheating. Now that she's caught and cornered she realizes that she wants to be with the wonderful, kind, caring, compassionate man that SHE'S NOT HAPPY WITH. You see where I'm going with this? 

In my humble opinion, she's handing you a big slice of baloney and is looking out for her best interest. You are the fall back guy whether you know it or not. Your the only one that can decide if you can be satisfied being #2 after how many years of marriage. Your the only one who can decide if you deserve better and your the only one who can decide if you want to stay in a marriage that she destroyed. Think long and hard about this.


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## ThePheonix

Road Scholar said:


> She has shown me the opposite. How bad everything was. How unhappy she has been. Everything I did to screw it up and make her unhappy basically. Worse yet still being in communication with him - or worse don't know if the physical contact was rekindled.


I've said dozens of times before it does't matter how you feel, how much you love her etc., etc.. The only thing that matters is how she feels about you. And apparently it ain't good.
That's the trouble with many men, yourself included. You actually believe "your" love conquers all...that your love acts as some kind of "love potion" that's going to make her love you. That ain't the way it works Dawg. Like a lot of guys, it's them caught up in their wife's affair fog, not their wife. 
My man, you know you can never trust her again. You couldn't trust her after the first time. You did and see what it got you.
Now you can go ahead and "blow up' the affair by telling his wife, causing problems at work, putting them on Cheaterville, etc, but guess what. When its all over, she will still rather be with him than with you. Youre 45 my man. There are thousands of 30-40 year olds waiting in the wings.
I guess I'm one of the luck ones that cannot imagine what its like to be trying to hold on to a women who has lost interest in me and willing to accept what few scraps she may be willing to throw my way.


----------



## LongWalk

Do a modifierad 180. Be dignified. Treat her politely, but don't make declarations of love. Concentrate on being a better person for your own sake, so that you will come out stronger regardless of the fate of your marriage. If you can maintain a sense of humor and reduce tension without indicating that you have let her off the hook, she will have time to express remorse. If she initiates sex, don't act grateful or needy afterwards
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## mahike

My bet is she is either still emotionaly attached to that POS or she also still in contact with him. I might be wrong but she does not understand the pain you are going through.

Get off your butt and expose the A to this guys wife and do it now. I would not be trusting your wife at this point. You also have to understand she is just with you at this point because she may not know what else to do. The point is she does not want you. 

You need to man up a bit. You need to go fishing with the guys, smoke cigars and watch the fight with you bro's. Next tell her the sex life steps up or their is the door.

This may hurt but I am betting she was much more active with that POS then you. She desired him forbidden fruit and all that crap. I would demand that she tells you what happened in a bit of detail. It hurt me but not knowing hurt be deeper.

She needs to be pulling the weight on fixing the marriage and that includes fixing the bedroom as well. 

She needs to know if she does not get it done then she is out.


----------



## Shaggy

And nuke the OM today. Not out of anger, but because before you can choose R or D you need to be dealing with your wife on honest terms.

She has to know you won't passively turn the other cheek, that you will take decisive action against those who threaten your family

And

You need this guy gone.

Remember generals who act win wars, not analysts who sit in a room weighing pros and cons and doing nothing,


----------



## Shaggy

Also suggestion, acquire a new phone with a new number and put a logger on it. One of the androids you can do this with.

Once ready hand it to her and demand her current phone. You get the current phone and number and can both do forensics on it, but you'll see when he contacts her.


----------



## Thorburn

While she is in this mood i would suggest the following. You are getting good stuff from the rest of TAM.

1. Write out your plan.
2. Stay cool with your wife. No matter how emotional she gets stay cool. Don't tell her you forgive her. Don't tell her you will work on the M. Don't tell him that you want to work things out. We know you more than likely do but don't Write yourself a card put it in your pocket that says, don't say a darn word until you write it down.
3. Ask your wife this: (In person)
a. Do you have any other phone? If she says yes, then ask her to give it to you immediately.
b. Give me your phone and let me check it.
c. Do yu have any other way of contacting him? If so, give me all the passwords.
d. I want to know dates, times, places and what you did (as much detail as you need). Then you put the OM on cheaterville with this info. As of yesterday I have had over 4 million hits on my wife's XOM.
e. Ask her if it is over.
f. no contact. None. If he contacts her she will immediately contact you. She does not engage him. Hangs up or whatever and informs you.
g. ask if there has been other men. If so, names, dates, places, etc.
h. Ask her to give you all his information, phone numbers, emails, etc.
i. Ask her if she will be willing to be available at a drop of a hat. Via phone, whatever.


Don't put her on cheaterville if you want to R but put the dude and blow him wide open. Don't inform your wife.

Go see an attorney. Start the ball rolling. You can start the process for D you can stop it at any time. 

You are a good man so be a good man and don't promise her a thing. Put space between all this. You have lots of time to figure things out.

If she is remorsefull she will tell you everything you need to know willingly. She may hesitate a little, but if she opens up and answers your questions, you will know. When my wife repented I knew.


----------



## azteca1986

Ovid said:


> 9. She has to tell your family her family and mutual friends about the A.


With you present, OP. Don't let her 'manage' the situation to play down her betrayals.


----------



## Shaggy

Well thought out Thorburn!



To OP - you need to see any attempt by her to protect or shield the OM by her as what it is - her being more loyal to him than to you. She doesn't want him to suffer consequences because she fears he will hate her and dump her.

Help make her fears come true,


----------



## illwill

You will not survive this unless you are truly willing to end your marriage. Truly. Ask yourself why would you love a woman, who clearly does not respect or likely love you. Is she worth the risk? To me two ddays are enough. Can you survive a third? These are questions you must ask yourself.


----------



## Shaggy

Btw - expect her to now throw some sex your way.


----------



## tom67

Shaggy said:


> Btw - expect her to now throw some sex your way.


Ha. She'll try but you'll make her sleep on the couch.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Wazza

Reconciliation.....well I reconciled with my wife and 23 years later I am sure it was the right decision ...for us.

Right now you love your wife, but who you love doesn't exist. You are in love with a fantasy.

The real woman can look you in the face and lie to you. She can have feelings (emotional and physical) for another man. She can conspire with him against you. She has done all this.

Those things aren't showstoppers to reconciliation. My wife did them all. But it was out of character. We were able to deal with underlying causes. You have to work out if it is out of character for your wife. You have to work out how to break this cycle. No easy answers to that one.

The other thing is, it takes two to build a marriage and one to destroy it. Right now your wife is destroying it. Actively so. Therefore, my strong advice to you is to line up your ducks as if you are going to divorce, to protect your financial well being and your future. It has the useful side effect of being a dash of cold water to your wife, and it forces you to find strength within yourself. You need to do that, because even if you reconcile in the longer term, it will be years before you can really see her as a safe place again, and it will never be as it was before the affair.


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## WorkingOnMe

Ignore her words and shows. Only trust her actions and then only half. I'll tell you right now if she's not begging for sex then she's not remorseful. If she's not offering her career on a silver platter she's not remorseful. Plus a whole lot more. You've been chasing her which is exactly opposite of how you deal with a cheater. You need her to chase you. Listen to her actions. That will tell you the truth.


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## Thorburn

WorkingOnMe said:


> Ignore her words and shows. Only trust her actions and then only half. I'll tell you right now if she's not begging for sex then she's not remorseful. If she's not offering her career on a silver platter she's not remorseful. Plus a whole lot more. You've been chasing her which is exactly opposite of how you deal with a cheater. You need her to chase you. Listen to her actions. That will tell you the truth.


I showed my wife love after d-day in February. I wrote a letter to her saying, I love you, etc and out of love I am filing for D. Love in these situations must be firm. At some point from February 2013 till the end of May Christ got a hold of her. My wife cheated on me several times. Her repentance seems very real. She came clean on everything. From that day she may have lied twice and they were small things but it sent me into a tailspin and she saw what it did to me. There are no more lies.

You are a kind good man, which can be a strength. Use your kindness and goodness to show your wife that tough love is the only way to break the evil that she has embarked upon.


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## Road Scholar

I am a practicing Catholic and have been really trying to take that approach and take the high road. She has always just went along with going to church, etc. If it weren't for me pushing it it wouldn't happen. Just for some background on me...and my flaws. Two flawed people trying to figure sh*t out.

Irish + Catholic + Temper = Guilt. 

I have done things for which I am truly remorseful for...on three occasions over 20 year history (6 dating, 14 married) things got physical between the two of us. I am not a wife beater by any stretch but there had been some physical contact between us which I feel has been my part in contributing to our dysfunctional marriage. Nothing like that would ever happen again and sickens me that it ever did. But feel the need to come clean with you all again for a true picture. I am no saint but still a decent to good husband and great father. I have also been known to go silent and shut down for a couple days. Again my contribution to a poor marital situation. I cannot change history although I wish I could. I have learned much about myself during this process and have become a better person I think already in many respects. 

I feel more in control today than I have in the 5 months and I am ready to walk and file for D. Part of me feels I should walk part of me feels a responsibility to allow her to prove to me she will do what it takes to earn my trust and my love back. 

If it got physical with him in the last 5 months I do not think I could take her back but she claims it ended back in May and they only talked as "friends". she said she thought she could maintain the friendship while trying to figure things out with us. I don't know how else to verify if it was physical or not. 

I guess it shouldn't matter. I'm sure texts/emails are long gone. I guess a polygraph might flush that out. In the end she lied and continued to call/text/im when she told me she was no longer in contact. So DDay 2 I guess from a betrayal point of view.

We both make very good money and she actually makes more than I do. The AP is an executive and has a lot to lose. in terms of comp, house value $1.2M, etc. Hard to blow him up without blowing her up in the process - same company.

Oh and her phone is an older droid Samsung.


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## TDSC60

If they work for the same company and he is an executive they will have ways of contact that you can never know about. That is a tough nut to crack. Will she consider quitting to save the marriage?


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## tom67

Forget exposing at work for now but his wife has to know he could have a disease and give it to her. I grew up in an irish catholic family also I know what you mean. This is not your fault. Show strength and resolve. That's your only chance to save this.


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## Road Scholar

I sent a text that if you want to show me this is important to you then resign today. She would find another job within a few months as she is smart and attractive. She is reluctant to quit but said she will start looking immediately. She is afraid of losing our home. We have 401K $ we could tap into for hardship if needed. It would be a strong sign she is serious, but would she resent it later? I know it's a poor financial move but would make a BIG statement to me.

I mailed the AP's wife a letter explaining her husband has been having an affair and added some specifics. I have tried calling the home numerous times but no answer. I left a voicemail at the home this am for the first time to call me back. So far no call back. Maybe she knows already. I will make sure of it.

To clarify, he is the executive with high compensation and million dollar house not me...not that it matters really other than much to lose. Oh he has been divorced once before, so she really picked a winner over me.


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## Thorburn

I suspect lies. Cheaters rarely end their A's on friendly terms. If they did the deed they never stopped. My wife confessed in 2011 crying, "We had Sex!!!!". Then she told me she met with him 5 more times and they sat on a wall saying how bad they felt about what they did. My BIL (a pastor) told me and I told my wife, that she would have been the first person in history to have sex with a guy and then go meet with him five times and not do it again. Found out that she lied about the wall thing. She kept having sex. Went into a false R for over a year and she was still nailing the guy.

Get it in your head cheaters lie. And if your wife has any Christian faith, until they truely repent and bring Christ into their lives, they will continue to lie. And she needs to confess not only to a priest but to you, her husband.

And stop blaming yourself for your wife's A. Sure you contributed to the good and bad in the M and you own it. But your wife is 100% at fault for any and all A's she was involved in.


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## Thorburn

Road Scholar said:


> I sent a text that if you want to show me this is important to you then resign today. She would find another job within a few months as she is smart and attractive. She is reluctant to quit but said she will start looking immediately. She is afraid of losing our home. We have 401K $ we could tap into for hardship if needed. It would be a strong sign she is serious, but would she resent it later? I know it's a poor financial move but would make a BIG statement to me.
> 
> I mailed the AP's wife a letter explaining her husband has been having an affair and added some specifics. I have tried calling the home numerous times but no answer. I left a voicemail at the home this am for the first time to call me back. So far no call back. Maybe she knows already. I will make sure of it.
> 
> To clarify, he is the executive with high compensation and million dollar house not me...not that it matters really other than much to lose. Oh he has been divorced once before, so she really picked a winner over me.


She will only resent it if she is not true to you. It is only money, and doing the hardship will take 10 % off the top and added income tax. It will be a good hit, but will show her colors, (IMO)


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## just got it 55

Ovid said:


> File for D. You can stop the D at any time, but you need to show her you are serious.
> 
> Do not agree to R or D for 90 days. Give yourself time to clear your head and think clearly.
> 
> Do the 180 immediately.
> 
> Give her a list of demands and tell her if she does not meet them there will be no reconcilliation. Tell her you will only consider R if she meets all of the demands.
> 
> Your demands:
> 0. She gets tested for STDs.
> 1. A complete written timeline of her affair. Have her sign it.
> 2. No contact letter sent to OM.
> 3. She helps you expose OM to his wife.
> 4. She turns over all texts, emails, and photos from her to the OM, or the OM to her.
> 5. She destroys any clothing she wore for OM.
> 6. She gets a new job, phone number, and email.
> 7. Complete transparency. All passwords etc.
> 8. Post nup agreement.
> 9. She has to tell your family her family and mutual friends about the A.
> 
> Tell her you will only consider R if she does all of these things, and until they are done you will continue with D.
> 
> When you give the list make it clear that you are filing for D and will not even consider stopping the D until she meets your requirements. Then go no contact with her until she is served.


RS...... All of this

Be patient

Her words say nothing

Her actions say everything


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## Wazza

Road Scholar said:


> I feel more in control today than I have in the 5 months and I am ready to walk and file for D. Part of me feels I should walk part of me feels a responsibility to allow her to prove to me she will do what it takes to earn my trust and my love back.
> 
> If it got physical with him in the last 5 months I do not think I could take her back but she claims it ended back in May and they only talked as "friends". she said she thought she could maintain the friendship while trying to figure things out with us. I don't know how else to verify if it was physical or not.
> 
> I guess it shouldn't matter. I'm sure texts/emails are long gone. I guess a polygraph might flush that out. In the end she lied and continued to call/text/im when she told me she was no longer in contact. So DDay 2 I guess from a betrayal point of view.


Thing is, you know she can look you in the eye and lie. I strongly suggest you tell her that because of that, you cannot believe her. Up to you whether you get angry when do it, or just make it a very sad statement of fact. Sometimes not being angry about some horrible truth is more powerful, because it is more clear you mean it.

Do you need to decide at once? It's a long emotional journey - years - and you are in no state to make these sorts of decisions. Take your time, and leave her in limbo for that time.

Under the circumstances, I think demanding she leave her job is a very good move.



Road Scholar said:


> Oh and her phone is an older droid Samsung.


Not sure. Others who know will chime in. Maybe post the exact model, but maybe stuff can be got back. However even if the phone is clean she is not in the clear IMO.


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## barbados

Road Scholar said:


> I sent a text that if you want to show me this is important to you then resign today. She would find another job within a few months as she is smart and attractive. *She is reluctant to quit but said she will start looking immediately. She is afraid of losing our home.* We have 401K $ we could tap into for hardship if needed. It would be a strong sign she is serious, *but would she resent it later?* I know it's a poor financial move but would make a BIG statement to me.
> 
> I mailed the AP's wife a letter explaining her husband has been having an affair and added some specifics. I have tried calling the home numerous times but no answer. I left a voicemail at the home this am for the first time to call me back. So far no call back. Maybe she knows already. I will make sure of it.
> 
> To clarify, he is the executive with high compensation and million dollar house not me...not that it matters really other than much to lose. Oh he has been divorced once before, so she really picked a winner over me.


She is not afraid of losing the home, she is afraid of losing the POSOM. If she had any fear of financial repercussions, i.e. practical things that matter, she would not be banging the boss ! You are being lied to still by her.

Her resentment ? REALLY ?? She was F'ing her boss and destroying her family. She false R'd with you for 5 months with no sex, because she was still banging the boss, and you are actually worried about her having resentment ??


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## Refuse to be played

Road Scholar said:


> Oh and her phone is an older droid Samsung.


See if it was one of these...
Mobile Spy Compatibility | Android, iPhone and BlackBerry Spy App

Android Spy App | Android Monitoring Software | Mobile Spy


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## Acabado

She knows damm well she was betraying you mantaning contact with him, she knew the risks, she's not deluded into thinking she coud still be friends with him while working in the marriage. It's a huge pile of bull. That's why she's asking a last chance. Call her on this. Tell her to try to sell that bridge to the MC. She played you and she must be humble and brave enough to admit it to you. She didn't value you enough and didn't believe you'd catch her. Period.
And it's very likely she was still f'ing him. A polygraph (or faking it to the deep end) would prove it.

If you are really tending towards D I've be careful about exposing it to HR or leaving your wife with no job. Demand she canges it but not resigning with nothing aligned. This is JMO.

Find out where OM's wife works or live and tell her face to face.


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## hopefulgirl

> If it got physical with him in the last 5 months I do not think I could take her back but she claims it ended back in May and they only talked as "friends". she said she thought she could maintain the friendship while trying to figure things out with us. I don't know how else to verify if it was physical or not.


I would prepare myself, if I were you, for the probability that it was physical during the last 5 months. Even if she says it didn't get physical: she's probably still in damage control mode, and still in the habit of lying because they don't "snap out of it" all at once. They become practiced in the art of deception and now it's a matter of saving her skin, so she's desperate - she'll tell you what you want to hear. In some sick way, if she was having sex with him these last few months, she'll also convince herself she's "sparing" you by keeping that truth from you. 

She also knows you're half crazed now, and knowing the Catholic guilt part, she hopes that by not putting you over the top by owning up to having sex with him (but not with you) these last few months, you MIGHT give her another chance and not divorce her. No way is she going to tell you the truth about that NOW.

This is why you need to detach, and I think, at least see a lawyer about filing for divorce (even if you're not convinced you'll follow through). And LATER, if you decide to R, you can THEN insist on getting the truth. Because one of the conditions of R is no more lies. But in the meantime, you will have to decide if the physical part of the affair going on in recent months is a dealbreaker for you. Just want to prepare you - it's very likely the sex was still going on. Sorry.


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## 6301

Road Scholar said:


> I She is reluctant to quit but said she will start looking immediately. She is afraid of losing our home. We have 401K $ we could tap into for hardship if needed. It would be a strong sign she is serious, but would she resent it later?
> 
> 
> It doesn't matter if she resents it later. If she does and brings it up in the future, all you have to do is look the woman square in the eyes and tell her bluntly that if she would have been a little more responsible, honest, faithful, and kept her clothes on and her knees together, she wouldn't have to look for another job. Do not let her blame you for her indiscretion. The OM didn't hold a gun to her head and force her to strip and have sex with him. It was her choice to have an affair and now since she wanted to dance to the music, it's time to pay the piper. Plain and simple. Bet you dollar to doughnuts she would tell you the same thing if you were the one that stepped out on her. Probably not. If it was her, I would bet the house that you would be bunking out in the back seat of your car or living in a motel somewhere.


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## tulsy

She hasn't been having sex with you because she is involved with the OM, and it would feel like she was cheating on him with you.

Just file, and attempt a 180. I would ask her to leave the house. If she refuses to leave, when she goes to work move all of her stuff out of the master bedroom and into a spare room...that will be her new room.

Get a lock for YOUR master bedroom and let her know matter-of-fact-like that she is no longer welcome in YOUR room. Have no contact with her except when it comes to the children, and even then, don't even look her in the eye when you talk to her...she deserves nothing but your contempt. 

Keep exercising and eat healthy. Stay busy, and get some new hobbies. Start taking the kids out alone, making plans without her, because she's not invited. Try to make dinner for yourself and the kids, and try to finish before she sits down at the table. Basically, you will be letting her know in every aspect of your life that you no longer need her. This also prepares you for life as a single dad, because that is currently where you are headed.

If she really wants R, SHE will have to do ALL of the heavy lifting, ie: quitting her job, NC letter, exposure, passwords for all email/phone, checking in and detailing whereabouts, etc. It could takes years of work, and even still, you may never be able to fully trust her again if you decided to R. You would have to think long and hard about whether or not you could live the rest of your life that way, but first and foremost, DON'T THINK ABOUT IT AT ALL RIGHT NOW. You don't think about R at all right now, you just 180. If she truly wants R, she will have to do the work, NOT YOU. So far, she hasn't done a thing...asking for another shot isn't even remotely good enough to "let bygones".

For now, apply the 180 HARDCORE, and proceed with serving her with D papers. Remember, the 180 is about you, NOT about winning her back, although that can sometimes happen. Regardless, the 180 makes you strong and resilient, and send a direct message that you will no longer be her doormat, ready to forgive all and step back into her plan-B slippers.

That guy is gone, bye bye.


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## Will_Kane

Road Scholar said:


> If it got physical with him in the last 5 months I do not think I could take her back.


It did.

Tell her immediately that you want to set up a polygraph to verify whether it was physical in the last five months.


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## tom67

Will_Kane said:


> It did.
> 
> Tell her immediately that you want to set up a polygraph to verify whether it was physical in the last five months.


:iagree::iagree::iagreeo it don't threaten do it.


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## Will_Kane

Road Scholar said:


> she claims it ended back in May and *they only talked as "friends". *she said she thought she could maintain the friendship while trying to figure things out with us.


Ludicrous. Look at the content of her last message to him. Have you ever in your life sent a friend a message like that?

The fact that you give any credence at all to what is coming out of her mouth is a sign that you still are dazed from all this.

CHEATERS LIE. After the affair is found out, 99% of cheaters lie for at least 2-3 weeks. Most much longer.

Cheaters only will admit to what you can PROVE. Do you remember what she answered when you asked her if she had been in contact with other man as you held her phone in your hand LOOKING at the message? She had to know you were looking at the message, yet she held out hope that you might somehow miss it, so she lied.

It is the same with "talking as friends" and getting physical since May. It was a full affair, with you being cut out from sex and her telling other man how alone she felt without him there while she drowned her sorrows at the bar. That is not "just friends."


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## illwill

She is lying about everything. And you know it. It has been physical this whole time. Assume it was and act as you should have the first time. Enough is enough.


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## Will_Kane

When she talks to you, or texts you, you might as well put your fingers in your ears and shout "bvllsh1t, bvllsh1t, bvllsh1t" over and over and over.

ACTIONS are the ONLY thing you should be paying attention to. Not crying, not snot-blowing, not saying "I'm so sorry," or "I took you for granted."

ACTIONS. "Here is my phone."

ACTIONS. "Here are my passwords."

ACTIONS. "I deleted my Facebook."

ACTIONS. "I deleted my email address, from now on I will share yours."

ACTIONS. "I quit my job today."

Ignore all words, pay attention only to actions.

Also, in the meantime, get those voice-activated recorders in place.

And don't let up on trying to contact other man's wife.


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## tom67

And don't let up on trying to contact other man's wife. Hire a pi if you have to.


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## Shaggy

Think about this - afte having sex with your wife during the first part of the A, do you really think this OM would continue to respond to her for months as just a friend without getting more sex?


----------



## Dyokemm

OP,

Crush the POS at his work.

I guarantee you his BW will find out about the A when he is getting his a** canned for screwing around with a subordinate employee.


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## arbitrator

Shaggy said:


> Think about this - afte having sex with your wife during the first part of the A, do you really think this OM would continue to respond to her for months as just a friend without getting more sex?


*Common sense would greatly dictate that! Even if he's been responding to her for months, you can bet your sweet backside that the OM is definitely addicted to some rather new and pleasantly strange "cooter pie!"*


----------



## LongWalk

tulsy said:


> She hasn't been having sex with you because she is involved with the OM, and it would feel like she was cheating on him with you.
> 
> Just file, and attempt a 180. I would ask her to leave the house. If she refuses to leave, when she goes to work move all of her stuff out of the master bedroom and into a spare room...that will be her new room.
> 
> Get a lock for YOUR master bedroom and let her know matter-of-fact-like that she is no longer welcome in YOUR room. Have no contact with her except when it comes to the children, and even then, don't even look her in the eye when you talk to her...she deserves nothing but your contempt.
> 
> Keep exercising and eat healthy. Stay busy, and get some new hobbies. Start taking the kids out alone, making plans without her, because she's not invited. Try to make dinner for yourself and the kids, and try to finish before she sits down at the table. Basically, you will be letting her know in every aspect of your life that you no longer need her. This also prepares you for life as a single dad, because that is currently where you are headed.
> 
> If she really wants R, SHE will have to do ALL of the heavy lifting, ie: quitting her job, NC letter, exposure, passwords for all email/phone, checking in and detailing whereabouts, etc. It could takes years of work, and even still, you may never be able to fully trust her again if you decided to R. You would have to think long and hard about whether or not you could live the rest of your life that way, but first and foremost, DON'T THINK ABOUT IT AT ALL RIGHT NOW. You don't think about R at all right now, you just 180. If she truly wants R, she will have to do the work, NOT YOU. So far, she hasn't done a thing...asking for another shot isn't even remotely good enough to "let bygones".
> 
> For now, apply the 180 HARDCORE, and proceed with serving her with D papers. Remember, the 180 is about you, NOT about winning her back, although that can sometimes happen. Regardless, the 180 makes you strong and resilient, and send a direct message that you will no longer be her doormat, ready to forgive all and step back into her plan-B slippers.
> 
> That guy is gone, bye bye.


:iagree:

Well, perhaps you do not need to be so draconian, but in spirit you must be tough. Exposing the AP at his work place to HR is a very good idea. If he is senior to her, he could lose his job. Your wife may or may not lose her job, but if he goes and she days, there is a good message for her. Moreover, you would have impressed her with your command of the situation.

If she loses her job, that is also good. If OM does not lose his job – unlikely in this day and age since you can spread this within the company and it will anger female employees – then your wife will see the injustice towards herself. You also come out stronger.

You do not need to apply all of hardest aspects of the 180 at once. The work place element will be a good start.

You need to discover her hopping into bed with just a T shirt and an anxious smile. She should invite a kiss and you should not hesitate when you make your move. If she holds out on you for a few more weeks after you have stirred things up, then file for D. You can always cancel later.


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## workindad

Expose posom to the fullest. Let the consequences fall as they may. You need to show your wife that you are a man and will not tolerate that BS. 

Fallout from his exposure, should it happen to affect her, so be it. She brought it upon herself. 

You will regret not exposing him to the fullest. Make sure you also speak to his wife and show her evidence. He will make you out to be. Some random nut as a defense. 

Your wife's actions and response after you nuke om will speak volumes about where her true feelings and loyalty lie. 

I would still file for d
Demand a polygraph 
Get checked for stds. 

I know this is a difficult spot and it is hard to follow some of the advice given but it is your best path forward for happiness be that r or d 

Also believe next to nothing your ww says actions are important. Lies are easy and free. 

Good luck
Wd
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chaparral

You told him if he ever talked to your wife again you would let everyone know what he was doing. If you do not follow through, you know what that means , right?


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## workindad

Great point chaparral. He can't say he wasn't put on notice and if you fail to follow thru...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RWB

workindad said:


> *Your wife's actions and response after you nuke om will speak volumes about where her true feelings and loyalty lie. *
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


In regards to her true feelings and loyalty... spot on. 

I'll add, if she is truly committed to R, *she should be helping you in this exposure...* Providing you, with names, phone numbers, addresses... etc.

Don't buy that sh-t about it being vindictive, recklessly destroying another family, not your fight... furthermore, don't believe a word when she says, why bother, she already knows the truth. Rarely does the Other Spouse know the details. Remember... the OM is lying just like your wife on the other end. Fact is he was lying to everyone, including your wife.


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## warlock07

Imagine beating up your wife the day after you apologized to her for getting physical. Now imagine apologizing everyday and beating her up the next day for 5 months. 

Understand where her mind is before you even start thinking about reconciliation.


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## CASE_Sensitive

If your wife has committed to changing jobs, you really should contact the old job's HR, let them know what happened and see if they have a policy on co-worker relationships. If you can prove any business trips, lunches, away time were just rendez vous romps, it would defintiley help you case to know this f'er gets a taste of the hardship you've encountered.


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## LostAndContent

Please just file friend. Don't let her keep making a fool of you. Remember that this started off as her refusing to be intimate with you even though she claimed to be working on the marriage and maintaining NC. Think about what it means that she's really been texting him all that time. Don't let her keep making a fool of you. 

She didn't sleep with you because she didn't want to cheat on him. 

Please. Please file and leave her. You're not setting a good example for anyone.

At most she's trying to save the marriage just long enough so she can leave without looking bad. I get the feeling that people's opinion means a lot to her. She wants to put in a good appearance of "Trying" so she can leave later without her reputation suffering as much. Don't let her have the satisfaction of being the one to leave you. YOU leave HER.


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## Road Scholar

Last night she was hysterically, begging, pleading, sobbing uncontrollably for me to give her another chance. Actually said, I'm begging you. 

She told me my decision to file for divorce was her wake up call and never saw me that serious about it before. I had my mind made up that I was going to file for the first time in my life and I am against divorce but at the time felt I had no other choice even though by doing so I would inflict a great deal of pain into my kids life for the rest of their life....and complicate mine forever as well. 

I said what about the last 5 months where I have been going through hell trying to save our marriage and all the excruciating pain I have been enduring, and the counseling, and BS reconciliation, meanwhile last night you send a text saying "wish you were here". 

She asked me to give her this gift of one more chance to allow her to show me how serious she is and how committed to me she is. 
Last night I asked her to send the NC letter to him and copy me. She complied and sent it this am and BCC'd me. I think its soft and I'm rather disappointed with it. I wish I had written it instead. What do you all think of it?

xxxx- xxxxx and I have decided that we are 100% committed to giving our marriage another chance. In order to have any hope of being successful, you and I can no longer communicate, even as friends. I know you understand and are completely focused on your marriage but I wanted to make sure we are all on the same page. 
xxx

Part of me is happy to see the change in heart finally but I am still very guarded. I don't want divorce if this can be salvaged but do not want to play the fool again. I am asking myself if she was with him in the last 5 months, does that matter if she is now ready to reconcile. I know she has already slept with him before. I cannot prove she has been with him in the last 5 months since he lives out of town. Everyone on this site seems to think she has for sure. They definitely both had the means to. Can I take that risk again to try to save family if she is now finally out of the fog? She does appear to be 100% sincere and remorseful.

I don't want to throw this away if it can be saved and save my family, spare my kids, break the cycle of divorce in my wife's family, but is this the walk away point? Do I just say its been enough and move on with my life and start over? 

I'm really thinking about blowing this guy up at work but it may impact my wife also. She has said she will be looking for a new job and has committed to leaving. I made it clear that I would turn his professional/personal life upside down if he contacted my wife in any way. If possible I do not want to ruin my wife's reputation in the process. I know many of you may disagree but she is still the mother of my children.

I feel for the first time that this has started that I am in the drivers seat and wish I filed for divorce as soon as I found out if nothing else to give her the wake up call. But my wake up call came 2 days before DDay and I had already committed to reconciling with her in my mind so it was hard for me to make that shift. Might not anyhow but sur wish I had been on this site from day one. All the advice you folks are giving has been great and cheaters clearly have a pattern that is predictable, but I also believe each situation is unique in its own way too. I am no longer afraid to walk away at any point, but want to give this a fair shot before I do if it can be salvaged from the heap. 

Very much appreciate all your wisdom and time you are taking to provide it!!! Thank you.


----------



## harrybrown

Has she initiated relations with you? Will she take the polygraph? She spent so much energy in cheating on you, lying to you, and doing anything she could for the AP. What has she done for you? Will she give you a written timeline of the affair and all the things that she did with the AP? How will she explain that you were her second choice and now you are her first choice? Has she put in her resignation at work and actively working for a new job? What is she doing to show you that she wishes you were there?


----------



## jack.c

Road Scholar said:


> Last night she was hysterically, begging, pleading, sobbing uncontrollably for me to give her another chance. Actually said, I'm begging you.
> 
> She told me my decision to file for divorce was her wake up call and never saw me that serious about it before. I had my mind made up that I was going to file for the first time in my life and I am against divorce but at the time felt I had no other choice even though by doing so I would inflict a great deal of pain into my kids life for the rest of their life....and complicate mine forever as well.
> 
> I said what about the last 5 months where I have been going through hell trying to save our marriage and all the excruciating pain I have been enduring, and the counseling, and BS reconciliation, meanwhile last night you send a text saying "wish you were here".
> 
> She asked me to give her this gift of one more chance to allow her to show me how serious she is and how committed to me she is.
> Last night I asked her to send the NC letter to him and copy me. She complied and sent it this am and BCC'd me. I think its soft and I'm rather disappointed with it. I wish I had written it instead. What do you all think of it?
> 
> xxxx- xxxxx and I have decided that we are 100% committed to giving our marriage another chance. In order to have any hope of being successful, you and I can no longer communicate, even as friends. I know you understand and are completely focused on your marriage but I wanted to make sure we are all on the same page.
> xxx
> 
> Part of me is happy to see the change in heart finally but I am still very guarded. I don't want divorce if this can be salvaged but do not want to play the fool again. I am asking myself if she was with him in the last 5 months, does that matter if she is now ready to reconcile. I know she has already slept with him before. I cannot prove she has been with him in the last 5 months since he lives out of town. Everyone on this site seems to think she has for sure. They definitely both had the means to. Can I take that risk again to try to save family if she is now finally out of the fog? She does appear to be 100% sincere and remorseful.
> 
> I don't want to throw this away if it can be saved and save my family, spare my kids, break the cycle of divorce in my wife's family, but is this the walk away point? Do I just say its been enough and move on with my life and start over?
> 
> I'm really thinking about blowing this guy up at work but it may impact my wife also. She has said she will be looking for a new job and has committed to leaving. I made it clear that I would turn his professional/personal life upside down if he contacted my wife in any way. If possible I do not want to ruin my wife's reputation in the process. I know many of you may disagree but she is still the mother of my children.
> 
> I feel for the first time that this has started that I am in the drivers seat and wish I filed for divorce as soon as I found out if nothing else to give her the wake up call. But my wake up call came 2 days before DDay and I had already committed to reconciling with her in my mind so it was hard for me to make that shift. Might not anyhow but sur wish I had been on this site from day one. All the advice you folks are giving has been great and cheaters clearly have a pattern that is predictable, but I also believe each situation is unique in its own way too. I am no longer afraid to walk away at any point, but want to give this a fair shot before I do if it can be salvaged from the heap.
> 
> Very much appreciate all your wisdom and time you are taking to provide it!!! Thank you.



ok, well i guess she's got your attention now! One step at a time... Personaly the first thing that I would do is going dark, see how thing are going. Second thing continue with D. till she see's the papers with her own eyes, make her understand that it's not a fake. And then I would Expose that MOTHXXFUXXER of a posom no matter what!

180 100%


----------



## Truthseeker1

Road Scholar said:


> Last night she was hysterically, begging, pleading, sobbing uncontrollably for me to give her another chance. Actually said, I'm begging you.
> 
> She told me my decision to file for divorce was her wake up call and never saw me that serious about it before. I had my mind made up that I was going to file for the first time in my life and I am against divorce but at the time felt I had no other choice even though by doing so I would inflict a great deal of pain into my kids life for the rest of their life....and complicate mine forever as well.
> 
> I said what about the last 5 months where I have been going through hell trying to save our marriage and all the excruciating pain I have been enduring, and the counseling, and BS reconciliation, meanwhile last night you send a text saying "wish you were here".
> 
> She asked me to give her this gift of one more chance to allow her to show me how serious she is and how committed to me she is.
> Last night I asked her to send the NC letter to him and copy me. She complied and sent it this am and BCC'd me. I think its soft and I'm rather disappointed with it. I wish I had written it instead. What do you all think of it?
> 
> xxxx- xxxxx and I have decided that we are 100% committed to giving our marriage another chance. In order to have any hope of being successful, you and I can no longer communicate, even as friends. I know you understand and are completely focused on your marriage but I wanted to make sure we are all on the same page.
> xxx
> 
> Part of me is happy to see the change in heart finally but I am still very guarded. I don't want divorce if this can be salvaged but do not want to play the fool again. I am asking myself if she was with him in the last 5 months, does that matter if she is now ready to reconcile. I know she has already slept with him before. I cannot prove she has been with him in the last 5 months since he lives out of town. Everyone on this site seems to think she has for sure. They definitely both had the means to. Can I take that risk again to try to save family if she is now finally out of the fog? She does appear to be 100% sincere and remorseful.
> 
> I don't want to throw this away if it can be saved and save my family, spare my kids, break the cycle of divorce in my wife's family, but is this the walk away point? Do I just say its been enough and move on with my life and start over?
> 
> I'm really thinking about blowing this guy up at work but it may impact my wife also. She has said she will be looking for a new job and has committed to leaving. I made it clear that I would turn his professional/personal life upside down if he contacted my wife in any way. If possible I do not want to ruin my wife's reputation in the process. I know many of you may disagree but she is still the mother of my children.
> 
> I feel for the first time that this has started that I am in the drivers seat and wish I filed for divorce as soon as I found out if nothing else to give her the wake up call. But my wake up call came 2 days before DDay and I had already committed to reconciling with her in my mind so it was hard for me to make that shift. Might not anyhow but sur wish I had been on this site from day one. All the advice you folks are giving has been great and cheaters clearly have a pattern that is predictable, but I also believe each situation is unique in its own way too. I am no longer afraid to walk away at any point, but want to give this a fair shot before I do if it can be salvaged from the heap.
> 
> Very much appreciate all your wisdom and time you are taking to provide it!!! Thank you.


Be very very careful...that NC letter was kind of soft....she might try to take her affair further underground....you simply can not trust a thing that comes out of her mouth....


----------



## tom67

Truthseeker1 said:


> Be very very careful...that NC letter was kind of soft....she might try to take her affair further underground....you simply can not trust a thing that comes out of her mouth....


Whether you expose at her work is your choice but give his wife a choice and let her know asap!


----------



## Wazza

Noooe else can tell you your walk away point.

In your shoes I would let the divorce proceedings run for a bit while I saw what happened, even if I intended to reconcile. And I would spy on her in ways she does not know about, since her word at the moment is simply not enough.

For me a lot would depend on her staying clean. Not everyone agrees but I also think staying for the kids can be the right thing to do.


----------



## workindad

Rs now is not the time to roll over and play nice. You have done that for the last 5 months and what did it get you. Of course she found a way to continue banging him. That is why she hasn't needed sex in the last 5 months from you. That and she didn't want to cheat on om because she values and respects him more than she does you. 

It is time to expose him far and wide. Let him know that is the price for fvcking with your family. If she is looking for a new job so be it. 

Be wary of her words. Actions count. She hasn't taken you seriously for 5 months because she has no respect for you as a man or her husband. 

Do not backslide. Take actionable steps. Make her earn reconciliation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## workindad

Also to translate her last text for you. 

Wish you were here translates to wish your d!ck was in me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Ovid

Your demands:
0. She gets tested for STDs.
1. A complete written timeline of her affair. Have her sign it.
2. No contact letter sent to OM. 
3. She helps you expose OM to his wife.
4. She turns over all texts, emails, and photos from her to the OM, or the OM to her.
5. She destroys any clothing she wore for OM.
6. She gets a new job, phone number, and email.
7. Complete transparency. All passwords etc.
8. Post nup agreement.
9. She has to tell your family her family and mutual friends about the A.

Two out of ten is a nice start.

Understand this isn't a list you give her to make things right. It's a list you will need to establish that she really is serious about R. It protects you, but it also gives her the opportunity to start earning your trust back by being willing to do the hard things that give you two a chance.

The A has to be destroyed on every level. Once that is done the two of you can begin work on a new marriage.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

Actions my friend. She still hasn't DONE anything. All talk. Are you still sexless? Is she still remaining faithful to him? If you're going to really reconcile then you need to reclaim her. That means twice daily, and she better be totally enthusiastic about it. Actions. That's the only thing you can believe.


----------



## weightlifter

Alright Im gonna take some arrows for your wife and I dont do this much. She wants R when the whole world says D... No idea why Im writing this but here you go.

1) File D slowboat style. Its in the works. MAKE HER FEEL THE PRESSURE.
2) Poly test SHE pays.
3) Im not a huge fan of workplace exposure unless it is one sided mission to destroy the OM. Call me Klingon but I dont mind revenge one little bit.
4) Paper SHE SIGNS with the following (Hint print the below and have her sign it)
a) ANY contact forbidden and is grounds for divorce.
b) You will get the sex issue worked out. This means the following.
You will let me do anything he did to you. With a smile and a moan of pleasure.
You will tell me your deepest darkest kinks. 
*I* want to try the following:
(cross off those YOU dont want)
oral
anal 
public
informal pictures
a nudoir book done as a project together
all night sessions
d/s
light to moderate bondage
light s/m (aka spanking not that freaky Easter Euro porn tit torture stuff)
(Do not 3somes and swapping are not there. bad bad road)
c) You will sexually surrender yourself to me. my balls need to be drained and kept that way.
d) You will initiate and make me feel wanted
e) You will be truly passionate toward me or the best acadamy award winning actress ever.
f) A burner phone is grounds for divorce
g) I get all email and phone passwords.
h) ANY contact by him needs to be reported to me IMMEDIATELY. Doing this by the way will give me a tiny piece of my trust back. If I am not immediately available a text counts as they are time stamped.
i) I am entitled to ask you ANY question even 5 years from now. j) YOU ARE TO NEVER ASK ME TO GET OVER IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You have injured me grievously to my soul.
k) You will out yourself to both our inner circle family and top two inner circle friends.
l) You are to account for all your time and fill in any blank time questions with a smile thanking me for the new chance YOU DO NOT DESERVE!
m) Here is a piece of paper. You have one day. You will give me a COMPLETE time line that MUST include:
first innocent contact
first inapropriate contact date and its nature
first outright dirty contact
first lip to lip kiss
first nudity date (trust level milestone)
first non piv (bj/hj etc) sex date 
first piv sex date
number of piv sex dates
locations 
positions
sex acts list
Dates may be approximate
n) Understand I simply may not be able to get over this but doing above I will try. (have her specially initial this one)
o) You will carry a copy of these divorce papers with you at all times in an envelope and sleep with them under your pillow. This is to remind you of how close you came to destroying 'us'.
p) STD check


----------



## Truthseeker1

Ovid said:


> Your demands:
> 0. She gets tested for STDs.
> 1. A complete written timeline of her affair. Have her sign it.
> 2. No contact letter sent to OM.
> 3. She helps you expose OM to his wife.
> 4. She turns over all texts, emails, and photos from her to the OM, or the OM to her.
> 5. She destroys any clothing she wore for OM.
> 6. She gets a new job, phone number, and email.
> 7. Complete transparency. All passwords etc.
> 8. Post nup agreement.
> 9. She has to tell your family her family and mutual friends about the A.
> 
> Two out of ten is a nice start.
> 
> Understand this isn't a list you give her to make things right. It's a list you will need to establish that she really is serious about R. It protects you, but it also gives her the opportunity to start earning your trust back by being willing to do the hard things that give you two a chance.


:iagree::iagree::iagree: Her tears and begging are meaningless she has to do the heavy lifting...too many BS in their hearts really just want to R and will look for any sign of hope..the WS HAS to walk the extra mile...they need to pay a penance for their actions...many WS simply do not...


----------



## tom67

weightlifter said:


> Alright Im gonna take some arrows for your wife and I dont do this much. She wants R when the whole world says D... No idea why Im writing this but here you go.
> 
> 1) File D slowboat style. Its in the works. MAKE HER FEEL THE PRESSURE.
> 2) Poly test SHE pays.
> 3) Im not a huge fan of workplace exposure unless it is one sided mission to destroy the OM. Call me Klingon but I dont mind revenge one little bit.
> 4) Paper SHE SIGNS with the following (Hint print the below and have her sign it)
> a) ANY contact forbidden and is grounds for divorce.
> b) You will get the sex issue worked out. This means the following.
> You will let me do anything he did to you. With a smile and a moan of pleasure.
> You will tell me your deepest darkest kinks.
> *I* want to try the following:
> (cross off those YOU dont want)
> oral
> anal
> public
> informal pictures
> a nudoir book done as a project together
> all night sessions
> d/s
> light to moderate bondage
> light s/m (aka spanking not that freaky Easter Euro porn tit torture stuff)
> (Do not 3somes and swapping are not there. bad bad road)
> c) You will sexually surrender yourself to me. my balls need to be drained and kept that way.
> d) You will initiate and make me feel wanted
> e) You will be truly passionate toward me or the best acadamy award winning actress ever.
> f) A burner phone is grounds for divorce
> g) I get all email and phone passwords.
> h) ANY contact by him needs to be reported to me IMMEDIATELY. Doing this by the way will give me a tiny piece of my trust back. If I am not immediately available a text counts as they are time stamped.
> i) I am entitled to ask you ANY question even 5 years from now. j) YOU ARE TO NEVER ASK ME TO GET OVER IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You have injured me grievously to my soul.
> k) You will out yourself to both our inner circle family and top two inner circle friends.
> l) You are to account for all your time and fill in any blank time questions with a smile thanking me for the new chance YOU DO NOT DESERVE!
> m) Here is a piece of paper. You have one day. You will give me a COMPLETE time line that MUST include:
> first innocent contact
> first inapropriate contact date and its nature
> first outright dirty contact
> first lip to lip kiss
> first nudity date (trust level milestone)
> first non piv (bj/hj etc) sex date
> first piv sex date
> number of piv sex dates
> locations
> positions
> sex acts list
> Dates may be approximate
> n) Understand I simply may not be able to get over this but doing above I will try. (have her specially initial this one)
> o) You will carry a copy of these divorce papers with you at all times in an envelope and sleep with them under your pillow. This is to remind you of how close you came to destroying 'us'.


I like your thinking:lol:well thought out!


----------



## weightlifter

which is thought out tom?


----------



## Shaggy

So threaten to file D got her attention.

See, being passive and soft balling consequences results in you being ignored, lied too, and continued being cheated on.

Her NC wasn't a break up letter, or even an admission that cheating was wrong - instead is was asking him to give her a chance to have you not divorce her.

You absolutely need to get off the fence and expose him at work. By not doing it you are showing her that you fear him, and you fear her possibly suffering consequences.


----------



## CASE_Sensitive

Here's a way to determine if she truly is fully committed to being with you and not O/M. You admit your N/C letter was soft and you sent it by email. You tell your WW you are not satisfied this was strong enough and demand a typed letter drafted by you (with TAM input), signed in ink by both her and you. Demand that it be sent registered to HIS address....demand if she's serious about saving the marriage, she will give this. If she doesn't...well then I guess you can sign the Divorce papers no problem.


----------



## weightlifter

UGH why does my gut say she deserves a chance if she agrees to MY ENTIRE LIST? WHY?

It makes no sense. I see nothing redeeming so why is my gut telling me this?


----------



## badmemory

RS, you are now at a different stage in this process; where you can can now "consider" R with her. And you should remain in this "consideration" phase for at least a few weeks.

Don't stop the D process yet. Stay separated from her in the bedroom if not location wise. Make sure that you give her, and that she accepts all of the consequences you've been advised on; including a polygraph, complete exposure, and transparency.

If after *at least* a couple of weeks, you do ultimately elect to R with her, make sure she is aware that you are "attempting" this, and that her willingness to *demonstrate* remorse will be your most important consideration. But make no promises that you won't change your mind regardless of what she does. Don't look back one day and regret that you didn't test her remorse in every way possible.

Beware of the effects of a likely hysterical bonding period. When it finally plays out, that's when the mind movies and resentments can return full force. 

Bottom line, if you do try to R, you have every right to change your mind if she doesn't keep up her end of the bargain; or even if she does.


----------



## Truthseeker1

Shaggy said:


> So threaten to file D got her attention.
> 
> See, being passive and soft balling consequences results in you being ignored, lied too, and continued being cheated on.
> 
> Her NC wasn't a break up letter, or even an admission that cheating was wrong - instead is was asking him to give her a chance to have you not divorce her.
> 
> You absolutely need to get off the fence and expose him at work. By not doing it you are showing her that you fear him, and you fear her possibly suffering consequences.


:iagree::iagree: DO NOT let up on the pressure now...the more I think about it the more that NC letter reads like a "wink wink I'll get back to you when my hubby is back in the dark about us" - she didn't end it - she hit the fvcking pause button....


----------



## workindad

UGH why does my gut say she deserves a chance if she agrees to MY ENTIRE LIST? WHY?

It makes no sense. I see nothing redeeming so why is my gut telling me this?
[Reply] [!!]

Maybe it is just hunger pains or gas.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dyokemm

RoadScholar,

I still really think you HAVE to blow this guy up at work and with his BW.

You have to get him the h**l away from your WW and keep him from sniffing around again.

If he does not suffer any consequences, he will eventually come around again to interfere in your life.

Send him running for the hills, scrambling to save his own a**.

Then he will be much too busy to ever think about f'ing with your family's life again.


----------



## tom67

weightlifter said:


> which is thought out tom?


Everything you outlined if she is hesitant on any it should be a deal breaker. She has to realize it has come to this.


----------



## tom67

If you inform his wife she may demand he quit.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

If it were me, I'd take a couple days off from work, fly to their city and tell his wife in person. She has a right to know. And I would not tell my wife I was going.....just go. Let her stew and wonder what's going on.


----------



## hopefulgirl

Your wife is NOT out of the fog - she's a mess right now. A lot of what she says could be true, but some trickle truth is very likely right now. Take some time to "separate" at least in your house. Another bedroom for awhile would be a good idea. Detach and do the 180. 

The OM's wife deserves to know. If you were in her shoes, would you prefer that the other affair partner's spouse who knew about it kept it from YOU?

Your wife won't think you're serious unless you at least visit an attorney. The separate bedrooms will help emphasize how serious you are. YOU need some time to think about this too. DO NOT decide about R right now. Leaning that way is fine. But do not tip your hand.


----------



## TRy

She cheated and has sex with another man (OM), she denies you sex as you did all of the effort to fix the marriage, and then she sends a text to the OM that says "Grey goose and soda. Alone at bar. Wish u were here." First, why is a proven recent cheater alone at at bar drinking? Second, why did she deny you sex during your 5 months of false reconciliation, when she freely gave herself sexually to the OM? Third, do you really beleive that you can trust her? You need to like the answers to these questions before you can even think about giving her yet another chance.


----------



## turnera

Road Scholar said:


> Part of me is happy to see the change in heart finally but I am still very guarded. I don't want divorce if this can be salvaged but do not want to play the fool again.


Did she give you all her passwords? Does she hand over her phone when you ask for it? Has she shown you the jobs she has applied for? Has she found a marriage counselor and set up an appointment? No? Then you should be guarded.


----------



## Want2babettrme

_


Shaggy said:



So threaten to file D got her attention.

See, being passive and soft balling consequences results in you being ignored, lied too, and continued being cheated on.

Her NC wasn't a break up letter, or even an admission that cheating was wrong - instead is was asking him to give her a chance to have you not divorce her.

You absolutely need to get off the fence and expose him at work. By not doing it you are showing her that you fear him, and you fear her possibly suffering consequences.

Click to expand...

DO NOT let up on the pressure now...the more I think about it the more that NC letter reads like a "wink wink I'll get back to you when my hubby is back in the dark about us" - she didn't end it - she hit the fvcking pause button.... 

1) File D slowboat style. Its in the works. MAKE HER FEEL THE PRESSURE.
2) Poly test SHE pays.
3) Im not a huge fan of workplace exposure unless it is one sided mission to destroy the OM. Call me Klingon but I dont mind revenge one little bit.
4) Paper SHE SIGNS with the following (Hint print the below and have her sign it)
a) ANY contact forbidden and is grounds for divorce.
b) You will get the sex issue worked out. This means the following.
You will let me do anything he did to you. With a smile and a moan of pleasure.
You will tell me your deepest darkest kinks. 
*I* want to try the following:
(cross off those YOU dont want)
oral
anal 
public
informal pictures
a nudoir book done as a project together
all night sessions
d/s
light to moderate bondage
light s/m (aka spanking not that freaky Easter Euro porn tit torture stuff)
(Do not 3somes and swapping are not there. bad bad road)
c) You will sexually surrender yourself to me. my balls need to be drained and kept that way.
d) You will initiate and make me feel wanted
e) You will be truly passionate toward me or the best acadamy award winning actress ever.
f) A burner phone is grounds for divorce
g) I get all email and phone passwords.
h) ANY contact by him needs to be reported to me IMMEDIATELY. Doing this by the way will give me a tiny piece of my trust back. If I am not immediately available a text counts as they are time stamped.
i) I am entitled to ask you ANY question even 5 years from now. j) YOU ARE TO NEVER ASK ME TO GET OVER IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You have injured me grievously to my soul.
k) You will out yourself to both our inner circle family and top two inner circle friends.
l) You are to account for all your time and fill in any blank time questions with a smile thanking me for the new chance YOU DO NOT DESERVE!
m) Here is a piece of paper. You have one day. You will give me a COMPLETE time line that MUST include:
first innocent contact
first inapropriate contact date and its nature
first outright dirty contact
first lip to lip kiss
first nudity date (trust level milestone)
first non piv (bj/hj etc) sex date 
first piv sex date
number of piv sex dates
locations 
positions
sex acts list
Dates may be approximate
n) Understand I simply may not be able to get over this but doing above I will try. (have her specially initial this one)
o) You will carry a copy of these divorce papers with you at all times in an envelope and sleep with them under your pillow. This is to remind you of how close you came to destroying 'us'.
p) STD check_

OP, I agree with the foregoing. She has been laughing in your face. She may have gotten a little nervous when you stated you would file, but she still thinks she's got things under control. Show he how wrong she is. You have to break her ego and show her how ugly her fantasy affair is. Do all the above and expose to family, friends, church. Post a facebook message on her wall stating she has had an affair and resumed contact after agreeing to NC, that you are in process of divorce, and that you need facebook friends' support to help WW see the error of her ways. 

Don't worry about her feelings being hurt. Don't worry about her feeling shamed with widespread public exposure. She created this F upped mess and she can reap the consequences. She certainly hasn't been concerned with your feelings. 

And expose the posOM to the entire world. Let him taste the pain he has been making you deal with.


----------



## bryanp

Your wife clearly is in damage control. For 5 months you have been working on recovery and she contacts him wishing he was with her. You threaten divorce and she begs for still another chance. She then writes a ridiculously soft no contact letter. She is totally playing you for time and does not want to change her life style.

She has had 5 moths to show herself after screwing her lover and putting your health at risk for STD's but refused sex to you because he was not feeling it. It seems she knows how to play you like a violin.
If the roles were reversed she never would have put up with such constant humiliation and disrespect so why are you? You judge a person by their actions and not by their words and her actions speaks volumes how she really feels about you. Enough is enough. Stop letting her play you.


----------



## tom67

WorkingOnMe said:


> If it were me, I'd take a couple days off from work, fly to their city and tell his wife in person. She has a right to know. And I would not tell my wife I was going.....just go. Let her stew and wonder what's going on.


This is what I would do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## just got it 55

just got it 55 said:


> RS...... All of this
> 
> Be patient
> 
> Her words say nothing
> 
> Her actions say everything


One more time for the record

This is consistant advice


----------



## just got it 55

TRy said:


> *She cheated and has sex with another man (OM), she denies you sex as you did all of the effort to fix the marriage,* and then she sends a text to the OM that says "Grey goose and soda. Alone at bar. Wish u were here." First, why is a proven recent cheater alone at at bar drinking? Second, *why did she deny you sex during your 5 months of false reconciliation, when she freely gave herself sexually to the OM?* Third, do you really beleive that you can trust her? You need to like the answers to these questions before you can even think about giving her yet another chance.


Along with the betrayal and the lies

This is the worst of it. It’s crushing humiliation.

Unimaginable cruelty .How does one recover from this ?


----------



## warlock07

tom67 said:


> Ha. She'll try but you'll make her sleep on the couch.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





Road Scholar said:


> Last night she was hysterically, begging, pleading, sobbing uncontrollably for me to give her another chance. Actually said, I'm begging you.
> 
> She told me my decision to file for divorce was her wake up call and never saw me that serious about it before. I had my mind made up that I was going to file for the first time in my life and I am against divorce but at the time felt I had no other choice even though by doing so I would inflict a great deal of pain into my kids life for the rest of their life....and complicate mine forever as well.
> 
> I said what about the last 5 months where I have been going through hell trying to save our marriage and all the excruciating pain I have been enduring, and the counseling, and BS reconciliation, meanwhile last night you send a text saying "wish you were here".
> 
> She asked me to give her this gift of one more chance to allow her to show me how serious she is and how committed to me she is.
> Last night I asked her to send the NC letter to him and copy me. She complied and sent it this am and BCC'd me. I think its soft and I'm rather disappointed with it. I wish I had written it instead. What do you all think of it?
> 
> xxxx- xxxxx and I have decided that we are 100% committed to giving our marriage another chance. In order to have any hope of being successful, you and I can no longer communicate, even as friends. I know you understand and are completely focused on your marriage but I wanted to make sure we are all on the same page.
> xxx
> 
> Part of me is happy to see the change in heart finally but I am still very guarded. I don't want divorce if this can be salvaged but do not want to play the fool again. I am asking myself if she was with him in the last 5 months, does that matter if she is now ready to reconcile. I know she has already slept with him before. I cannot prove she has been with him in the last 5 months since he lives out of town. Everyone on this site seems to think she has for sure. They definitely both had the means to. Can I take that risk again to try to save family if she is now finally out of the fog? She does appear to be 100% sincere and remorseful.
> 
> I don't want to throw this away if it can be saved and save my family, spare my kids, break the cycle of divorce in my wife's family, but is this the walk away point? Do I just say its been enough and move on with my life and start over?
> 
> I'm really thinking about blowing this guy up at work but it may impact my wife also. She has said she will be looking for a new job and has committed to leaving. I made it clear that I would turn his professional/personal life upside down if he contacted my wife in any way. If possible I do not want to ruin my wife's reputation in the process. I know many of you may disagree but she is still the mother of my children.
> 
> I feel for the first time that this has started that I am in the drivers seat and wish I filed for divorce as soon as I found out if nothing else to give her the wake up call. But my wake up call came 2 days before DDay and I had already committed to reconciling with her in my mind so it was hard for me to make that shift. Might not anyhow but sur wish I had been on this site from day one. All the advice you folks are giving has been great and cheaters clearly have a pattern that is predictable, but I also believe each situation is unique in its own way too. I am no longer afraid to walk away at any point, but want to give this a fair shot before I do if it can be salvaged from the heap.
> 
> Very much appreciate all your wisdom and time you are taking to provide it!!! Thank you.


How come everything changed once you caught her ? How do you know that these 5 months, she was trying to continue the affair and the OM wasn't interested anymore after the first D-day. She is probably scared because the OM is no longer there and you are now leaving. The NC letter sounds like a very friendly goodbye. Has she confessed to anything that happened in the last few months that you did not find out ? 



> She does appear to be 100% sincere and remorseful.


The thing is, I can only betray you only if you trust me. Every BS that posts here is shocked that their spouse could cheat on them. That is where the pain of the betrayal comes from

One more thing. Forgiveness given easily is not valued or respected. You have experience about this first hand. Even if you decide to reconcile, give her a month or two to ponder over her actions. Don''t tell her that you decided to come back. Maybe she will only appreciate you only when she loses you


----------



## Road Scholar

I mailed a letter to his wife yesterday with some details of the affair. 

I actually spoke to OM today and insisted he provide me with date and time he last saw my wife. I wanted to compare stories his/hers. He did not provide me with a date. Acted very remorseful, etc. etc. said he is in therapy, etc. never wanted to do this, etc. etc. It was a mistake, blah blah blah. 

He is a very accomplished liar as my wife has been and he only admitted to what I told him I knew and even denied being with my wife on a date that I know he was with her. So very similar pattern deny, deny, deny even when caught red handed. Complete lying POS.

She tried to initiate sex last night after I opened door to R. I put her off. I am still very leery and wonder if I can really trust her ever again regardless of what really happened in the last 5 months. I know she continue to deceive me and to lie and to go along to counseling the whole time WHILE making me feel like we were on our way to reconciling and she just needed time before she was ready.

The text is really pretty damning and damaging in itself, but if the fog has lifted since because of my very real threat of filing for D. And she is now back and realizes how bad she f'd things up...what if? As I had mentioned or maybe not, this whole thing has been very out of character for her. 

I fully agree to gauge her actions versus words because anyone that can lie as flawlessly as she was able to is very dangerous. My skin has gotten pretty thick over the last 5 months, but especially so the last two days. D is now an option for me I know that and I am not afraid to file. It wasn't before because I was taking so much of this on me. What transpired after the last 5 months has made me realize it ain't me - part of me knew that already.

Soooo, I had already spent money on a getaway weekend before I found out she was in contact with him which was not refundable, so we are going. I know either way there is still a long road ahead of me regardless the path I end up on, so I will use this weekend to see how she acts. I'm guessing now that sex will be part of the weekend so at least there is that and we'll see how everything else goes. This may be a mistake based on all the posts but I'm willing to see how it goes and realize I may be opening myself up again but at least now I see it as a real risk. I know I am strong enough if I get hurt again or lied to again and my kids deserve that much. 

I will be proceeding very cautiously and taking precautions every step of the way. I will also be demanding some of the things mentioned in this post to test her resolve this weekend. I know the road ahead will not be easy and if she cannot handle the heat now I'm not going to go down that path with her. I am one foot out the door the other is not far behind based on how things go.

Again thanks.


----------



## turnera

It's really easy to cry and beg your way back into your BH's arms, while having no intention of being faithful. Women do it all the time. In fact, I'd say we've been trained to do it, over the eons, out of self protection.

That's why you will always hear here: trust ACTIONS, not WORDS.


----------



## turnera

Road Scholar said:


> I'm guessing now that sex will be part of the weekend so at least there is that and we'll see how everything else goes. This may be a mistake based on all the posts but I'm willing to see how it goes and realize I may be opening myself up again but at least now I see it as a real risk. I know I am strong enough if I get hurt again or lied to again and my kids deserve that much.


meh, let her 'make it up to you.' You deserve that much.


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## tom67

Decompress this weekend and do what you want if you need space go out by yourself she is on your timetable now.


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## just got it 55

RS : you have some idea of what you face at this time.
First and foremost remain the best man and father you can be. Remember she has inflicted some serious pain and humiliation with her own hands.

I know of men in your situation that made it a point to inflict the same pain and humiliation on their WW .It may have been satisfying at the time but that brings you to a deeper darker place. Making them do things sexually demeaning and would say “Did he do this “or: Did you do that” At some point you both need to heal be it R or D.

Every move counts here. Long term the truth is what you need. Insist on it on all counts before you move forward. Watch her actions when you go away retake your wife in a powerful way.

We are human animals


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## Thor

Are you in a state where infidelity might affect the D settlement or alimony? Having sex is considered forgivemesd in some such states, voiding any legal advantage you may have. Do some quick google-fu before you get naked with her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chaparral

Make sure to take a Var on your trip. Leave her alone in your room with plenty of time and a phone she can call om. So many ww have been caught here on vacations and getting back together trips its obscene.


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## workindad

Definite agree with chaparral. Use the var this weekend. Of course that won't show you the text Be on the lookout for a burner phone. 

The temptation to rug sweep is powerful. Avoid that pitfall. If you want to reconcile. I wish you well. Your biggest mistake now will be forgiving to eAsily and rug sweeping. It will just enable her cheating although she will get better at hiding it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## workindad

If you do plan to sleep with her. Buy some condoms to protect your health. You don't want her to infect you with an std.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Will_Kane

Road Scholar said:


> Last night I asked her to send the NC letter to him and copy me. She complied and sent it this am and BCC'd me. I think its soft and I'm rather disappointed with it. I wish I had written it instead. What do you all think of it?
> 
> xxxx- xxxxx and I have decided that we are 100% committed to giving our marriage another chance. In order to have any hope of being successful, you and I can no longer communicate, even as friends. *I know you understand and are completely focused on your marriage *but I wanted to make sure we are all on the same page.
> xxx


This letter is unacceptable. That bolded part is cheater code for "I am only writing this to you because my husband is making me - you and I both know that you are not completely focused on your marriage." Do you get what I'm trying to say? By putting in this statement that they both know is completely untrue, it is her way of saying to him "I still love you and you still love me but I have to do what I have to do."

Have her write a new one. It should be handwritten by her. On paper. This is what it should say:

_Other Man Name:

I am terribly ashamed of my behavior and feel horrible for having risked losing my husband, who I love more than anyone else in the world. Do not contact me ever again, for any reason, work or otherwise. If you do, I will file sexual harassment charges against you with the company and I will file harassment charges against you with the police and let the chips fall where they may.

Signed,

Wife Name_

After she writes it, and signs it, she gives it to you. You make a copy of it, then you mail the original via certified mail to the other man's home.


----------



## illwill

The sex will likely set back your recovery.


----------



## Will_Kane

Road Scholar said:


> Part of me is happy to see the change in heart finally but I am still very guarded. I don't want divorce if this can be salvaged but do not want to play the fool again. I am asking myself if she was with him in the last 5 months, does that matter if she is now ready to reconcile. I know she has already slept with him before. I cannot prove she has been with him in the last 5 months since he lives out of town. Everyone on this site seems to think she has for sure. They definitely both had the means to. Can I take that risk again to try to save family if she is now finally out of the fog? She does appear to be 100% sincere and remorseful.
> 
> *All the advice you folks are giving has been great and cheaters clearly have a pattern that is predictable*, but I also believe each situation is unique in its own way too. I am no longer afraid to walk away at any point, but want to give this a fair shot before I do if it can be salvaged from the heap.
> 
> Very much appreciate all your wisdom and time you are taking to provide it!!! Thank you.


It only seems unique to you. Like I'm sure each case of the flu is unique to the person who has it, but not so much to the doctor treating it, or how each tax return is unique, but not to the tax accountant. No, your wife is not unique in any way.

We don't know if your wife is truly remorseful, but we can guess, based on past performance of others, compared to hers, that there is a pretty good possibility that she is not.

Stop believing anything she says. Words, crying, tears, begging - these are all easy, they really are, and neither you nor us out here in cyberspace are good judges of whether or not she is sincere. She is a convincing liar. She seems sincere. I saw the movie Lincoln, darn if I didn't think that actor really was Lincoln.

What you are looking for is ACTIONS. That is the only thing you should be looking for. The ONLY action you have so far is the "no contact" letter, which as I posted earlier, is extremely suspect; so much so that I consider it a negative action rather than a positive one.

You have done well so far, no doubt, and you are making progress. Don't get so excited with the little bit of progress that you've made so far that you destroy everything you've accomplished. Make her suffer some consequences before you reward her with reconciliation and sex and "I love you's." Let her show you through ACTIONS that she is committed to making this work.

When you push her away, she chases you. When you try to pull her close, she will pull away. That will happen again if you go on this anniversary weekend and make her feel like she is forgiven, if you have sex with her and start acting like you have decided to stay in the marriage. As soon as she realizes she has you hooked back in that easy, she will stop valuing you, and start taking you for granted, and start wanting the guy who she can't have - the other man. To some degree, this is human nature, to take for granted and not value things that come too easy. Certainly at your stage and position of life you recognize this.

Saying she will quit the job is a lot different than doing it. What is more important to her, this job or her marriage. You can make it on your salary until she gets something else. These are the consequences of the affair. It's on her, not you. It's not your job to make it better for her - not this fallout from the affair. For her to appreciate it, she has to suffer it. You have spent your whole marriage making her life easier whenever you could (ask me how I know) - you've got to let her suffer through these consequences all by herself. The wife you get back will be more like the one you first married, minus a lot of your trust. The only thing on you right now is to expose to the other man's wife, to make sure she got your letter, to talk to her, and to offer her what proof you have. And to blow the other man up at work. You should not have any trouble finding out who to contact or how.

What's going to happen if you go on this anniversary weekend and start to make nice-nice with your wife is this: She is going to F your brains out, then she is going to cuddle with you and kiss you and be all over you; then she is going to start with, "honey, I love my job, I don't even see other man, can't I just keep my job, you can monitor my phone, my email, I will quit anytime you want if you don't like what's going on, ..." Then, six months from now, when things are more settled, she (and you) will fall back into your old habits, you will start being suspicious, she will start being secretive and deny everything ... .

Others have posted a list of actions for your wife. They all looked good, you have to decide what you need. QUITTING THE JOB IS A MUST. I also would add the following:

1. Re-do the no contact letter.

2. Write a timeline of the affair, when it started, how it started, why it started, how often, any details of their encounters that you want, how many times, etc. Definitely the first time they had sex and the last time they had sex, the last time they had contact.

3. She gets tested for STDs and pregnancy and gives you the results.

4. She agrees to take a polygraph to prove any point you have doubt about - particularly the last time they had contact, the last time they had sex, and whether she has had any other affairs since you've been married.

5. Transparency - passwords, access - to all accounts and devices. I think she should just give them up for a while, like three months, to make it a little harder to act on temptation (like not keeping candy in the house when you are on a diet) and to ease your mind and help you get through the first part of reconciliation where you will be ultra suspicious of everything. Give up the cell phone, delete facebook, delete her email and share yours. Three months.

6. Get rid of any gifts received, any special lingerie, any special clothing worn for the other man.

AFTER, and only AFTER, she meets the conditions you need met, ONLY THEN do you start to truly reconcile.


----------



## Will_Kane

illwill said:


> The sex will likely set back your recovery.


The sex will make you feel better and lull you into a false sense of security. You will be less likely to enforce her leaving the job, etc. She will feel she has won you back, will begin to value you less, because she no longer has to work at it. Start thinking more about other man.


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## turnera

Will_Kane said:


> The sex will make you feel better and lull you into a false sense of security. You will be less likely to enforce her leaving the job, etc. She will feel she has won you back, will begin to value you less, because she no longer has to work at it. Start thinking more about other man.


Yeah, but they're stuck in a vacation together. 

Of course he could always ditch her and take his best friend.


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## ThePheonix

Personally I don't think getting a little poon tang is necessarily a bad thing. Just don't give up your soul and common sense and take it for what it is. Think of it this way my man, if she didn't have that thing would you allow yourself to dance to her tune. After that, walk down the street, look at the other women and tell yourself, "all these gals have the same thing my old lady's got. Like my great uncle would say, "Boy, de best advice I can give you is don let some pu--y tell you what to or ruin your life"


----------



## aug

Road Scholar said:


> *Last night she was hysterically, begging, pleading, sobbing uncontrollably for me to give her another chance. Actually said, I'm begging you.
> *
> She told me my decision to file for divorce was her wake up call and never saw me that serious about it before. I had my mind made up that I was going to file for the first time in my life and I am against divorce but at the time felt I had no other choice even though by doing so I would inflict a great deal of pain into my kids life for the rest of their life....and complicate mine forever as well.



It's still a game to her. Real remorse shows through over time. Thus far, what she has shown is not real remorse.

She's currently appeasing you. If she was remorseful, she would do things on her own to show that her moral anguish is driving her actions. Thus far, from what you have written, I dont see that.


----------



## tom67

ThePheonix said:


> Personally I don't think getting a little poon tang is necessarily a bad thing. Just don't give up your soul and common sense and take it for what it is. Think of it this way my man, if she didn't have that thing would you allow yourself to dance to her tune. After that, walk down the street, look at the other women and tell yourself, "all these gals have the same thing my old lady's got. Like my great uncle would say, "Boy, de best advice I can give you is don let some pu--y tell you what to or ruin your life"


Eh if you're in the mood be the aggressor, take charge and when you are done take a shower and go to the bar no "I love you" just say I'm going out.


----------



## workindad

Road Scholar said:


> She tried to initiate sex last night after I opened door to R. I put her off. I am still very leery and wonder if I can really trust her ever again regardless of what really happened in the last 5 months. I know she continue to deceive me and to lie and to go along to counseling the whole time WHILE making me feel like we were on our way to reconciling and she just needed time before she was ready.
> 
> .


OP, I'm not trying to beat a dead horse... but Shaggy called this yesterday. Go back and read his posts. He accurately predicted this would happen. 

I hope you take the advice seriously that has been given and follow thru. Follow thru is difficult. But in the end, R or D, it is your best course of action.

All the best
WD


----------



## Shaggy

Consider this, if you are ready to throw away the marriage and divorce her, considering the all the time, money, effort you've put into it , why aren't you nuking the OM at work?

I know, you are afraid of fall out on your wife.

Which would you be willing to sacrifice for your family?

- your marriage
- your wife's job 
- OMs job

List these in the absolute order your be willing to sacrifice to save your family. Then start with the first on the list and keep walking down the list until you've achieved your goal.

Right now you are ranking them this way.

First you'd be willing to do: D - sacrifice the marriage
Second - OMs job
Last - wife's job.


Or in other words, you'll D before you do go after the OM.

Is that the priority you really agree with.?


----------



## Shaggy

Btw - if the sexy clothes she brings on the trip haven't been bought just now for the trip, they are retreads from the OM.

Dump them in the trash.


----------



## workindad

Shaggy said:


> Consider this, if you are ready to throw away the marriage and divorce her, considering the all the time, money, effort you've put into it , why aren't you nuking the OM at work?
> 
> I know, you are afraid of fall out on your wife.
> 
> Which would you be willing to sacrifice for your family?
> 
> - your marriage
> - your wife's job
> - OMs job
> 
> List these in the absolute order your be willing to sacrifice to save your family. Then start with the first on the list and keep walking down the list until you've achieved your goal.
> 
> Right now you are ranking them this way.
> 
> First you'd be willing to do: D - sacrifice the marriage
> Second - OMs job
> Last - wife's job.
> 
> 
> Or in other words, you'll D before you do go after the OM.
> 
> Is that the priority you really agree with.?


:iagree::iagree::iagree: Absolute spot on!


----------



## hopefulgirl

Road Scholar said:


> I mailed a letter to his wife yesterday with some details of the affair.
> 
> I actually spoke to OM today and insisted he provide me with date and time he last saw my wife. I wanted to compare stories his/hers. He did not provide me with a date. Acted very remorseful, etc. etc. said he is in therapy, etc. never wanted to do this, etc. etc. It was a mistake, blah blah blah.
> 
> He is a very accomplished liar as my wife has been and he only admitted to what I told him I knew and even denied being with my wife on a date that I know he was with her. So very similar pattern deny, deny, deny even when caught red handed. Complete lying POS.
> 
> She tried to initiate sex last night after I opened door to R. I put her off. I am still very leery and wonder if I can really trust her ever again regardless of what really happened in the last 5 months. I know she continue to deceive me and to lie and to go along to counseling the whole time WHILE making me feel like we were on our way to reconciling and she just needed time before she was ready.
> 
> The text is really pretty damning and damaging in itself, but if the fog has lifted since because of my very real threat of filing for D. And she is now back and realizes how bad she f'd things up...what if? As I had mentioned or maybe not, this whole thing has been very out of character for her.
> 
> I fully agree to gauge her actions versus words because anyone that can lie as flawlessly as she was able to is very dangerous. My skin has gotten pretty thick over the last 5 months, but especially so the last two days. D is now an option for me I know that and I am not afraid to file. It wasn't before because I was taking so much of this on me. What transpired after the last 5 months has made me realize it ain't me - part of me knew that already.
> 
> Soooo, I had already spent money on a getaway weekend before I found out she was in contact with him which was not refundable, so we are going. I know either way there is still a long road ahead of me regardless the path I end up on, so I will use this weekend to see how she acts. I'm guessing now that sex will be part of the weekend so at least there is that and we'll see how everything else goes. This may be a mistake based on all the posts but I'm willing to see how it goes and realize I may be opening myself up again but at least now I see it as a real risk. I know I am strong enough if I get hurt again or lied to again and my kids deserve that much.
> 
> I will be proceeding very cautiously and taking precautions every step of the way. I will also be demanding some of the things mentioned in this post to test her resolve this weekend. I know the road ahead will not be easy and if she cannot handle the heat now I'm not going to go down that path with her. I am one foot out the door the other is not far behind based on how things go.
> 
> Again thanks.


OM is probably not even in therapy. Don't believe a word he said.

While it's good that this was hopefully the only affair she's ever had and that it was out of character for your wife, do NOT believe that the fog has completely lifted just because of the threat of D. It's actually too soon for her to have changed her ways that fast. 

She's been practicing deceiving you without giving it a second thought for many months now - she can't stop doing that on a dime. It's become automatic. I know you don't want to believe that. My husband was as principled as they come: he HATED liars, and spoke about that fairly frequently. Imagine my surprise when it turned out he became really good at it himself. After D-Day, even though I know the affair was over, he continued to hide some things from me for awhile (there was no contact, but it had to do with facts and other things) - the fog does NOT clear overnight!

Don't go back to counseling with her yet - unless you state upfront that you can't believe what she says in the sessions at this time (which is kind of a waste of money). If you do go soon, make it clear that you're ambivalent about R - can't believe in it - since you can't believe what she says yet. If you wait to go back to counseling, when you have a better sense that she's actually out of the fog, then it will be more useful.

Also, don't even think about forgiving her yet. For one thing, you don't know the facts yet, so you don't know what you'd be forgiving her for. And forgiveness is something that should come much later in this process - doing it too early makes it easy for her to play you yet again.


----------



## Shaggy

I'm betting the OM is in the same therapy the recent X mayor of San Diego attended.


----------



## tom67

Shaggy said:


> I'm betting the OM is in the same therapy the recent X mayor of San Diego attended.


----------



## ThePheonix

tom67 said:


> Eh if you're in the mood be the aggressor, take charge and when you are done take a shower and go to the bar no "I love you" just say I'm going out.


That would be my move. I'd add to "I'm going out" , to do some thinking. Be ready in the morning to go to breakfast.


----------



## aug

Road Scholar said:


> *He is a very accomplished liar as my wife has been* and he only admitted to what I told him I knew and even denied being with my wife on a date that I know he was with her. So very similar pattern deny, deny, deny even when caught red handed. Complete lying POS.



That's the type of person your wife likes. That's the type of person who turns her on.

He's a liar. She loves him. She respects him. She's faithful to him by abstaining from sex with you. She's an accomplished liar too. They are similar this way.

She's using sex to appease you. But she cant and wont put her lover out of her mind. The OM will always be in her head and remembered fondly.


I dont see how you can compete with all that.


----------



## Shaggy

You need to see the situation for what really has gone down
Before dday 1 she gave you sex to keep you in the dark,

After dday 1 sex stopped because you knew she was a cheater, but you let her stay , so she no longer had to bare having sex with you. She didn't want to cheat on him,


Now she fears you may actually drive him off, so she's trying to throw some sex again to appease you and protect him.

But her loyalty remains entirely with him.


----------



## the guy

tom67 said:


>


Can we leave San Diego out of this?
Granted Filner is a POS, but come on!


----------



## happyman64

Road Scholar

You should still see the attorney.

1st visit is for you to be informed about what a divorce will cost you.

Then make a 2nd visit with your wife so she understands what a divorce will cost her.

Do not tell her just take her.

Let her know just how serious you are.

And do not let up on the OMW.

She needs to know and the oM needs to know you really mean business.

Hope your trip went ok.

HM


----------



## tom67

happyman64 said:


> Road Scholar
> 
> You should still see the attorney.
> 
> 1st visit is for you to be informed about what a divorce will cost you.
> 
> Then make a 2nd visit with your wife so she understands what a divorce will cost her.
> 
> Do not tell her just take her.
> 
> Let her know just how serious you are.
> 
> And do not let up on the OMW.
> 
> She needs to know and the oM needs to know you really mean business.
> 
> Hope your trip went ok.
> 
> HM


This would be a good way to shock her back into reality plus shows you are not putting up with her bs.:iagree:


----------



## the guy

When OP contacted the OM I would have told him " I'm going to phuck the hell out of your girl friend this wekend...and then laughed.

Point here is if your old lady wants to keep her marriage its time to put out....

Ya I know, I'm just wired different then most.


----------



## illwill

Wow!


----------



## tom67

the guy said:


> When OP contacted the OM I would have told him " I'm going to phuck the hell out of your girl friend this wekend...and then laughed.
> 
> Point here is if your old lady wants to keep her marriage its time to put out....
> 
> Ya I know, I'm just wired different then most.


Scary part is I agree with you.


----------



## Road Scholar

Back from the weekend which went as well as could be expected given circumstances and recent discovery that she has still been in contact with OM.

Personally, I went 3-for-3. What I mean is sex Fri, Sat, Sun. So 5 months of nothing while I gave everything I had and now that I'm willing to walk and file for D and move on with my life, the sex comes roaring back. I guess she feels a connection all of the sudden. What a line.

She seems to be much more vested and remorsefull now. I tried to keep the weekend mostly pleasant as our goal was to get away and have a nice weekend and demonstrate we could still be with each other and have fun together even in this incredibly difficult situation. On occassion throughout the weekend, we did discuss the situation and it ended in her sobbing, or me being somewhat on the attack verbally, basically saying to her with so much on the line you showed me so little and every indication is that you were still f**** him while telling me you loved me and going to MC, etc. I told her I needed to figure out if i could be with someone that could treat me that way. He logic is still flawed she said, "well i was afraid you would end it because that is what you told me". I was like so that mattered enough that you would lie and deceive about the contact, but not enough NOT to be in contact with him. I must have asked her 15-20 times in the last 5 months have you been in contact with him. No IMs, EMAILS, phone calls. Every time, the answer was no. It's not about me and him, it's about you and I and whether we can be happy together. It's not a competition, etc. She told me she thought she could manage it. Makes me so mad that I bought it and didn't listen to my gut which has NEVER lied to me or let me down.

I don't know, but I no longer feel the need to or desire to or feel like crying anymore. Been there done that I suppose maybe numb, maybe more aware of the true situation. Obviously still saddend by all of this and in some respects just disappointed this is where I'm at in my life right now, but still unsure of what to do really moving foward. 

She admitted to looking at my phone over the weekend as saw that I texted with OM and asked me about it. I told her I haven't decided what I'm going to do with him yet and I really haven't. I told her I spoke with him also and what an utter scumbag the guy is. Denying everything. I will ensure his wife is aware of the situation and will do what I can to verify she knows. If I take him out at work, it will likely take her out also and in the back of my head I am still trying to reconcile if I am able to I guess so I don't want to put all our dirty laundry out there and damage her reputation at the same time and likely she would lose her job and be humiliated in the process. To me that is also a pretty big betrayal which I am not inclined to do right now and still prefer to keep this semi-private. I understand she did all that to me but I'm not going to stoop to that level right now. Is this a bad decision? Still trying to take the high road for now I can always play that card but once it's played I can't take it back. I don't want to become less of a person in this process. I want to become a better person as a result of it and not allow it to ruin who I am. I'm also reluctant to tell her family and my family about the affair. Some of my/her family know we are having problems but not of the details. Her brother knows and so does mine. That's it.

I am concerned about the "rug sweeping" and impact down the road and recognize I might be doing some of this unknowingly. For example, I don't know everything about the affair but I think I know enough. I would like to know if she was with him sexually in the last 5 months. I feel like she probably was but how can I confirm this? She dienies it saying it ended in May. I'm not sure if it would impact what I do going forward (if she is now begining to come out of the fog) but I need the truth about the past and as we move forward...and an my gut tells me she was still sleeping with him or did a few times during the false reconciliation. I did not go about this the right way after finding out about the affair. I was being a total ***** and trying to be the NICE GUY owning up to my mistakes and trying fix them. Clearly the wrong approach.

She keeps saying not to focus on the past, to focus on what we want moving forward, doesn't understand how it can help, she can't change the past, etc, etc. etc. She also says she realizes this is somewhat self-serving too. I really don't want to focus on the details either but is it absolutely critical I know everything? I don't want to be haunted by every little detail but I also don't want lingering questions years from now. What about this? What about that? Again is this more of a test for her to come clean and bring everything into the light of day?? How important is it for me to understand all aspects of the affair before moving forward? I don't want to be back here in 2 or 3 years or ever for that matter and I am willing to lose the marriage reluctantly at this point so want to do what is necessary now to be successful in long term R if that is to happen. Is part of it for her to show me what she is willing to do to save our marriage by telling all and complying with every one of my requests?? 

She has a completely different attitude about it I can tell you that and it does look to me like remorse right now, but I have been fooled before. Or, is it combined, saddness the affair may truly be over now and fear of losing family too and being the lying cheating spouse that caused it all?? Who can be sure the fog has really lifted and she is not doing it to protect him still?? 

I told her she needs to go back to individual counseling since she stopped some time ago. I also let her know I mailed a letter to his wife and don't believe that she knows - although she just might. She was shocked at how much information I had on this guy and said that she thought I was trying to get revenge and what would I gain by ruining his life. She said it's not who you are.

Next, I am going to have her redo the NC letter and also the give me a timeline of events, places and other details in addition to scheduling the counseling. She has obviously been lying to her counselor and our MC for 5 months as well as everyone else. 

I told her I'm not sure she knows what the truth is right now anymore. Fact is I'm not sure I know what the truth is either with where she is truly at. Time I guess will tell. In the meantime, I remain guarded...


----------



## Jasel

You're not exposing (which makes it even easier to slip into rug sweeping). I don't get what the point of another NC letter would be seeing how the first one did absolutely nothing. Please stop telling your wife everything you know, how you know it, and what you plan to do about it.

I'm not saying you don't have to go after the OM (not in a way that would get you into legal trouble) but stop telling her about your plans to do so. All you're doing is potentially giving him a heads up, not to mention stroking her ego.

No offense but it doesn't sound like you're doing anything differently than you did the last time. All I'm seeing is you making her go back to counseling while you sit and wait to see if she ****s you over for a 3rd time while she feeds you crocodile tears. Have you even talked to a lawyer??


----------



## Dyokemm

RoadScholar,

Yes I think it is important for her to come clean with the complete story and truth.

If there is going to be a real R, how can that be possible if she still feels she can lie, deceive and hide things from you?

What basis would there be for truthfulness and trust going forward?

And she absolutely has to stop protecting this POS, because that is exactly what she is doing by trying to guilt you into not destroying his life.

How in the h**l can she be worried about a scumbag who has almost destroyed her M and HER OWN children's lives?

F that a**hole. 

And she needs to get on board with this attitude ASAP.


----------



## turnera

Tell her you want a day-by day timeline, by next Sunday night. Once she gives it to you, tell her that she is going to a polygraph that you have scheduled for her the next morning (you already called her work and told them she would be late). The polygraph tech can use her timeline to verify (or not) the truth.

Expect lots of 'forgotten details' to pop up in the ride to the polygraph.


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## happyman64

Road Scholar

You are right it is not a competition. Because you are a much better person than your spouse.

Wait till she comes out of the fog in a few months and realize how the OM used her.

it will happen.

Stay firm. Get your ducks in a row and enforceable boundaries in place with your wife that have serious consequences.

You can hold the job over both their heads.

Trust your gut....

HM


----------



## badmemory

Road Scholar said:


> Back from the weekend which went as well as could be expected given circumstances and recent discovery that she has still been in contact with OM.
> 
> Personally, I went 3-for-3. What I mean is sex Fri, Sat, Sun. So 5 months of nothing while I gave everything I had and now that I'm willing to walk and file for D and move on with my life, the sex comes roaring back. I guess she feels a connection all of the sudden. What a line.
> 
> She seems to be much more vested and remorsefull now. I tried to keep the weekend mostly pleasant as our goal was to get away and have a nice weekend and demonstrate we could still be with each other and have fun together even in this incredibly difficult situation. On occassion throughout the weekend, we did discuss the situation and it ended in her sobbing, or me being somewhat on the attack verbally, basically saying to her with so much on the line you showed me so little and every indication is that you were still f**** him while telling me you loved me and going to MC, etc. I told her I needed to figure out if i could be with someone that could treat me that way. He logic is still flawed she said, "well i was afraid you would end it because that is what you told me". I was like so that mattered enough that you would lie and deceive about the contact, but not enough NOT to be in contact with him. I must have asked her 15-20 times in the last 5 months have you been in contact with him. No IMs, EMAILS, phone calls. Every time, the answer was no. It's not about me and him, it's about you and I and whether we can be happy together. It's not a competition, etc. She told me she thought she could manage it. Makes me so mad that I bought it and didn't listen to my gut which has NEVER lied to me or let me down.
> 
> I don't know, but I no longer feel the need to or desire to or feel like crying anymore. Been there done that I suppose maybe numb, maybe more aware of the true situation. Obviously still saddend by all of this and in some respects just disappointed this is where I'm at in my life right now, but still unsure of what to do really moving foward.
> 
> She admitted to looking at my phone over the weekend as saw that I texted with OM and asked me about it. I told her I haven't decided what I'm going to do with him yet and I really haven't. I told her I spoke with him also and what an utter scumbag the guy is. Denying everything. I will ensure his wife is aware of the situation and will do what I can to verify she knows. If I take him out at work, it will likely take her out also and in the back of my head I am still trying to reconcile if I am able to I guess so I don't want to put all our dirty laundry out there and damage her reputation at the same time and likely she would lose her job and be humiliated in the process. To me that is also a pretty big betrayal which I am not inclined to do right now and still prefer to keep this semi-private. I understand she did all that to me but I'm not going to stoop to that level right now. Is this a bad decision? Still trying to take the high road for now I can always play that card but once it's played I can't take it back. I don't want to become less of a person in this process. I want to become a better person as a result of it and not allow it to ruin who I am. I'm also reluctant to tell her family and my family about the affair. Some of my/her family know we are having problems but not of the details. Her brother knows and so does mine. That's it.
> 
> I am concerned about the "rug sweeping" and impact down the road and recognize I might be doing some of this unknowingly. For example, I don't know everything about the affair but I think I know enough. I would like to know if she was with him sexually in the last 5 months. I feel like she probably was but how can I confirm this? She dienies it saying it ended in May. I'm not sure if it would impact what I do going forward (if she is now begining to come out of the fog) but I need the truth about the past and as we move forward...and an my gut tells me she was still sleeping with him or did a few times during the false reconciliation. I did not go about this the right way after finding out about the affair. I was being a total ***** and trying to be the NICE GUY owning up to my mistakes and trying fix them. Clearly the wrong approach.
> 
> She keeps saying not to focus on the past, to focus on what we want moving forward, doesn't understand how it can help, she can't change the past, etc, etc. etc. She also says she realizes this is somewhat self-serving too. I really don't want to focus on the details either but is it absolutely critical I know everything? I don't want to be haunted by every little detail but I also don't want lingering questions years from now. What about this? What about that? Again is this more of a test for her to come clean and bring everything into the light of day?? How important is it for me to understand all aspects of the affair before moving forward? I don't want to be back here in 2 or 3 years or ever for that matter and I am willing to lose the marriage reluctantly at this point so want to do what is necessary now to be successful in long term R if that is to happen. Is part of it for her to show me what she is willing to do to save our marriage by telling all and complying with every one of my requests??
> 
> She has a completely different attitude about it I can tell you that and it does look to me like remorse right now, but I have been fooled before. Or, is it combined, saddness the affair may truly be over now and fear of losing family too and being the lying cheating spouse that caused it all?? Who can be sure the fog has really lifted and she is not doing it to protect him still??
> 
> I told her she needs to go back to individual counseling since she stopped some time ago. I also let her know I mailed a letter to his wife and don't believe that she knows - although she just might. She was shocked at how much information I had on this guy and said that she thought I was trying to get revenge and what would I gain by ruining his life. She said it's not who you are.
> 
> Next, I am going to have her redo the NC letter and also the give me a timeline of events, places and other details in addition to scheduling the counseling. She has obviously been lying to her counselor and our MC for 5 months as well as everyone else.
> 
> I told her I'm not sure she knows what the truth is right now anymore. Fact is I'm not sure I know what the truth is either with where she is truly at. Time I guess will tell. In the meantime, I remain guarded...


I would presume you've decided not to ask her to take a polygraph test, despite a lot of advice to do so. That's probably your only chance to get more of the truth.

Whether you believe in their accuracy is not really important. One, no matter what, you should to ask her to take a poly if only to gauge her reaction. If she refuses, then you know she is likely lying and is not remorseful (still).

Two, just the threat of one may invoke further confession ahead of the poly date - or even the day of.

And you're right, her urging you to stop thinking about the past is not only self serving, it's rug sweeping. I would make sure that she knows that kind of talk is not acceptable - especially so soon after your discovery.


----------



## LongWalk

The 5 months... Perhaps the affair was still going on physically, perhaps not. She was in love with him and that killed her desire for you. Love can last a period of months. You could tell her that you want to escape thinking of the affair and enjoy rediscovering passion for each other. The affair is a fact that will not disappear. It can have an official history to limit its capacity to damage. Explain to her that you want a time line that you can rely on. One that no accidental discovery, such a receipt or note, can topple her account of things. 

If she had more contact or sex during the 5 months that is horrible, but trickle truth is now worse.

Does it feel right to be intimate again? If yes, congratulations on solving one riddle
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shaggy

Her projects for tomorrow

1. To give you th real full timeline of th A
2. Schedule her wn polygraph test
3. Make short list of the companies she will be applying to by the end of the week
4. Update her resume 

By weeks end - send out hee CV and cover letter to at least 10 jobs, followed by 20 every week until age changes companies.

Have her get calling her contacts and to look at LinkedIn postings.

Make her give you a weekly status on the job hunt.


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## harrybrown

Yes, you need the details of this affair, have her write a timeline and a history of this affair. Tell her to include any other affairs. Then tell her you need access to the history of all the texts from the phone company. 

She ripped your heart out and set it on fire. She has to put the fire out before putting the heart back into the chest, to see if it can start beating again, and you need to know if she kicked the heart before or after she set it on fire.


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## LongWalk

There you go. Shaggy agrees with a full time line idea.

A key here is that you treat yourself with dignity and respect, seeking the same from her. Show restraint. Don't let anger drive you to speak rudely or cruelly.


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## illwill

Consequences.


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## bryanp

I am sure she is very remorseful......remorseful that she got caught.

My friend you have married a chronic liar. When she knows that you will no longer take her **** sandwich anymore then all of a sudden she is feeling it to have sex with you. You do understand that you are being clearly manipulated. There is no way in the world to ever believe a chronic liar. She will never tell you the truth because she does not want to hurt you and have you leave her.....What is wrong with this picture?

I would strongly suggest a polygraph so you will know how much she is lying to you. I would strongly suggest that you also expose her affair to the OM's wife. If the roles were reversed wouldn't you have wanted her to inform you.

I just cannot see the point of believing that you could have a happy marriage with a chronic liar who has had no problems cheating on you and then cutting you off because she did not feel it for you for 5 months. Now all of a sudden with you planning to leave the she now feels it.......Oh Please! If you believe this then I have a bridge to sell you also.


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## workindad

bryanp said:


> I am sure she is very remorseful......remorseful that she got caught.
> 
> My friend you have married a chronic liar. When she knows that you will no longer take her **** sandwich anymore then all of a sudden she is feeling it to have sex with you. You do understand that you are being clearly manipulated. There is no way in the world to ever believe a chronic liar. She will never tell you the truth because she does not want to hurt you and have you leave her.....What is wrong with this picture?
> 
> I would strongly suggest a polygraph so you will know how much she is lying to you. I would strongly suggest that you also expose her affair to the OM's wife. If the roles were reversed wouldn't you have wanted her to inform you.
> 
> I just cannot see the point of believing that you could have a happy marriage with a chronic liar who has had no problems cheating on you and then cutting you off because she did not feel it for you for 5 months. Now all of a sudden with you planning to leave the she now feels it.......Oh Please! If you believe this then I have a bridge to sell you also.


Absolutely right on the money. Sorry she got busted and scared her paycheck might walk away.

Follow thru on the polygraph. Get all the details so you can work through them now. Then decide.


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## Wazza

You need to work our how much you need to know. My strong advice is to demand what you need and not compromise, though bear in mind it is painful for her and don't hurt her needlessly. 

Otherwise it will eat at you forever.


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## Acabado

Road Scholar said:


> Personally, I went 3-for-3. What I mean is sex Fri, Sat, Sun. So 5 months of nothing while I gave everything I had and *now that I'm willing to walk and file for D and move on with my life, the sex comes roaring back*. I guess she feels a connection all of the sudden. What a line.


Damage control sex.



> She seems to be much more vested and remorsefull now.


False, given...


> she said, "well i was afraid you would end it because that is what you told me".


It's a blatant lie: she had you exactly where she wanted you, jumping like trained puppy, making a mockery of the reconciliation, being underground in the most typical unrepetant cake eater fashion, rejecting any kind of intimacy while giving it to OM. It's called a premeditated, cold false R. She's playing stupid, that's why her lames excuses doesn't make sense at all, her IQ didn't get lowered suddenly, she was very smart at MC sessions, making excuses to reject you, playing perpetual victim, right?. She knew what she was doing.
Stop using euphemisms. It was not "contact", it's sugarcoating what was going on, she was still in the affair while faking reconciliation, the texts you incercepted screams volumes even she wasn't f'ing the man (which she was, you know how to find out if you really want).


> She told me she thought she could manage it.


= I'm a skilled cake eater. No different from her mindset before initial DDay.


> She admitted to looking at my phone over the weekend as *saw that I texted with OM and asked me about it*.


She's scared, upset, still protecting her lover. Yes, that's the word, for her he's the man to protect, you are the one to betray and lie.



> I am concerned about the "rug sweeping" and impact down the road and recognize I might be doing some of this unknowingly.


 It's imperative she writes a complete timeline (just facts, what, where, when, how) to back up with a polygraph, and her recolection of the entire affair, meaning the emotional parts. To the date, including the false R.
You will realize she's still lying.



> She keeps saying not to focus on the past, to focus on what we want moving forward, doesn't understand how it can help, she can't change the past, etc, etc. etc.


Of course, you should worry to rugsweep this as she's fully into it.

You need the full disclosure and the right to discuss, talk about it as long as you want, to your entire satisfaction.



> She has a completely different attitude about it I can tell you that and it does look to me like remorse right now, but I have been fooled before.


Sorry, you are still being fooled. I'm not saying she can't eventualy come to that place, but for now...
- She's pushing you to forget about it ASAP.
- She's protecting his OM.
- She's lying, about what was going on since she started this crop until you intercepted the latest texts.
- She's manipulating you with; *sex*, *tears *and...


> she thought I was trying to get revenge and what would I gain by ruining his life. She said *it's not who you are*.


...pushing the right bottoms of the nice guy, guilty tripping.


----------



## WyshIknew

Acabado is right I think.


If she was truly remorseful and 'with you' she would not hesitate to help you nuke OM.


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## bandit.45

Just understand that what you are getting is duty sex. As long as her loyalty is with the OM all you are getting is pity sex and no emotional sex. 

But use her anyway, the way she is using you for a meal ticket. And while you're at it divorce her sorry butt.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## arbitrator

bandit.45 said:


> Just understand that what you are getting is duty sex. As long as her loyalty is with the OM all you are getting is pity sex and no emotional sex.
> 
> But use her anyway, the way she is using you for a meal ticket. And while you're at it divorce her sorry butt.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


*The only thing that I will take exception with you on here, Bandito, is that this skank is, and in all reality, simultaneously sharing herself sexually with both the OM and her H. I really wouldn't want any of that worthless bastard's STD's in my system! She's using the same modus operandi that my XW(damn, it feels great to say that) did to me!

And by the way Bandit ~ the divorce unexpectedly finalized earlier today! When I rest up real good and finally get my bearings back, it'll be high time for you to get your sorry butt down here to Brazos County to help us pop a few porkers!*


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## bandit.45

Hey that's great Arb! So this just came out of the blue huh? Are you going to update your thread and give us the details?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## illwill

As i predicted the sex came at a high price and when you see the bill...


----------



## Will_Kane

WyshIknew said:


> Acabado is right I think.
> 
> 
> If she was truly remorseful and 'with you' she would not hesitate to help you nuke OM.


Acabado said everything I was thinking. Excellent analysis of what your wife is doing.

Turnera is right about writing the timeline and the polygraph.

Plus what Wysh says - sorry, man, when she is truly sorry she will hand him up to you on a silver platter. Maybe not with a smile on her face, but she will do it.

I think you have a good chance at reconciliation, but if you are too eager, then she will wind up back with him once she placates you.

From out here in cyberspace, it smells more like a pause in the affair, a short break, rather than the end of it. You've got to end her affair if you want to save your marriage. THAT WON'T HAPPEN UNTIL EITHER HE LEAVES THE JOB, OR HER.

As for you, road, you can't be overly cautious, afraid every next move might ruin what progress you have made. You made this progress by being aggressive, you will make even greater progress if you continue to be. Don't be afraid to say whatever comes into your head when you're talking with your wife. Don't be afraid to ask her for anything. If you want her to stand on her head and spit wooden nickles, tell her that's what you want.

When she had you where she wanted you, lying about no contact and begging for sex while she still was having sex with other man (oh, yes, we all know she was, only you are still doubting that), she was showing you no mercy, none at all. She was treating you in a way that most of us would feel bad treating our worst enemies. What was that, like a week ago?

Demand whatever info you want. The more you know, the better you will understand, the more likely you will be to save your marriage. I do not advocate being mean or nasty, but I do advocate being ruthless. This is your marriage, those are your kids, this is your life. Play to win.


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## Will_Kane

Where do you stand on your wife and the other man continuing to work for the same company?


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## Will_Kane

There's no need to embarrass your wife at work if she leaves the job of her own accord. Let her give three weeks notice and start looking immediately. She can make up an excuse about being stagnant, needing a change of pace, needing a different challenge, whatever she wants.


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## Will_Kane

If your wife doesn't leave the job, the only way to save your marriage will be to nuke other man. If you do, maybe your wife can get off with a reprimand. If not, that's the consequences of her own actions. It didn't have to be that way if she didn't cheat and then, even after she was caught, it didn't have to be that way if she was honest with you. Now you have no choice - either she leaves the job or you nuke the other man. But please don't tell her anything about "or I will nuke the other man." Keep that to yourself and just do it IF the time comes.


----------



## ShootMePlz!

She is resorting to the "Tried and True" 'Lifting of Her Skirt" technique of placating you. Keep her feet to the fire and don't settle for anything less than true reconciliation!!!


----------



## Will_Kane

Road Scholar said:


> We are mildly affectionate. We cuddle in bed. We kiss but not passionately anymore. She stops it from going anywhere. *Bottom line no sex in nearly 5 months* even though we were still having sex during her 2 month affair (as far as I know). the no sex thing is killing me. I'm here trying to work **** out and *she needs to feel closer to me to have sex with me*. *Says she's not feeling it*. Struggling with how she feels about me and *doesn't feel close to me*. *I'm trying to be patient and give her time and let her work through this and "put love first" build positive momentum and allow her infatuation with him pass.* the no sex thing makes me wonder WTF. She is obviously not willing to take one for the team and it's always sorta been this way. I always want it more and she holds all the cards. *Feeling rejected again *as before and trying to save my marriage for my family, me, and kids - if it can be salvaged but I feel like I need more from her.


You are a good man and what she has done to you is pure evil. There you were taking it all on your own back, carrying her, her cheating, her lying, doing ALL of the work of reconciliation, while all she was doing was lying to you and screwing other man, then sending him messages like *"Grey goose and soda. Alone at bar. Wish u were here."* AFTER FIVE MONTHS OF YOU PUTTING UP WITH HER SH1T, HE GOT THAT MESSAGE, NOT YOU.

She raked you over the coals for five months AFTER SHE CHEATED ON YOU.

And that was not going to end. If you didn't come here and find her out, you would have just spent your anniversary weekend exercising your wrists. 

I'm glad you got your rocks off, but she is just using it to manipulate you. 

What happened in the last week that would have made her so horny?


----------



## Wazza

WyshIknew said:


> Acabado is right I think.
> 
> 
> If she was truly remorseful and 'with you' she would not hesitate to help you nuke OM.


My wife had genuine feelings for OM. She did eventually give me the material necessary to nuke him, but it was done reluctantly. Whatever she says, she saw him as a nice guy. 

So you can reconcile when that is the message she has sent - I did. But it hurts.

A fe years later, having stayed for my kids, I met someone. It never became an affair, but it did help me understand how my wife had been torn.

This is a life changing event RS. Your marriage will never be what it was before. And if you are like me, no other relationship could be like your marriage was before. Every now and then, twenty years from now, the mere presence of your wife will cause you to trigger and remember the affair.

Dn't get me wrong, I am glad I reconciled. Just letting you know how it feels so you go in with your eyes open.

I believe relationships are built. I you believe it is a case of finding your soul mate, then things just work out....well she has shown she is not that. As Abacado said, she is prioritising the OM over you right now.


----------



## hopefulgirl

> She keeps saying not to focus on the past, to focus on what we want moving forward, doesn't understand how it can help, she can't change the past, etc, etc. etc. She also says she realizes this is somewhat self-serving too. I really don't want to focus on the details either but is it absolutely critical I know everything? I don't want to be haunted by every little detail but I also don't want lingering questions years from now. What about this? What about that? Again is this more of a test for her to come clean and bring everything into the light of day?? How important is it for me to understand all aspects of the affair before moving forward?


It is very important for you to know SOME aspects of the affair in order for you to heal. I think reading Shirley Glass' book NOT Just Friends will help you a lot in understanding the benefit of your knowing the when and where and what lies were told to pull it all off (it will help your wife understand too; it's a good book for waywards to read as well). Glass is widely considered to be THE expert in the field of infidelity. She also discusses how the details of what went on will probably not be beneficial for you to know (once you know them, you can't "un-know" them, and they could indeed end up haunting you).

Unfortunately, for now, what she's saying can't be trusted - she's probably still in damage control, trickle truth mode (fog hasn't lifted). You need to play hardball. Visit a lawyer, schedule a polygraph, or do something to SHOW her you mean business other than just ask her to tell you the truth because you tried that once already, and you know how well that worked.


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## LongWalk

Where was the Grey Goose bar? Did your wife and OM hang you there? Where else did they meet? Your wife sounds like the type who would parking lot confess on the morning of the polygraph. 

One of the key questions: do you feel that she loves you? In what way is respect for you affecting that love? She has had sex with you? Was it different for you? Did she orgasm? If so do you think it was a relief for her that the sex was not repulsive to her? Is she initiatiating now? 

Keep pushing for the truth but do it without drama, malice or plea.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## carpenoctem

_Quote:
*Originally Posted by Road Scholar 

**she thought I was trying to get revenge and what would I gain by ruining his life. She said it's not who you are.*_*
*



“Correction, dear. It is not who I WAS. Your actions / choices have changed me. Now, I want to see some comeuppance on the other side too. It’s either this, or I fornicate with his wife for x months, just as he and you did. Which would you (and he) prefer?”



Serious ‘nice guy’ exploitation underway. She exploited his ‘niceness’ to rug-sweep her own actions, and now exploits it to protect the OM.



-	The noise you hear is my teeth grinding.


----------



## hrhubandstuff

the guy said:


> When OP contacted the OM I would have told him " I'm going to phuck the hell out of your girl friend this wekend...and then laughed.
> 
> Point here is if your old lady wants to keep her marriage its time to put out....
> 
> Ya I know, I'm just wired different then most.


I guess I'm really wired different than most, then, because if this woman thought she could just placate me with a little sex, I'd be breaking out the video camera and making her prove just how far she'd be willing to go to make her point. It just might be her turn to be sexually humiliated for a change, all the while knowing it would be recorded as a souvenir for private posterity, D or R. Just as the ball is in your court, your balls ought to be in her mouth, as she tries gamely to smile for the camera. Because as long as you're making her jump through appropriate hoops to prove herself worthy of R, you should also make her jump through some actual hoops, inappropriately, in nothing but high heels and 1080p high-definition.

But that's just me. Seriously.


----------



## Road Scholar

You are all a great source of support, guidance and direction. Very much appreciated!!! I cannot express enough thanks.

While I don't agree with everything everyone posts here, my main goal remains to determine whether or not reconciliation is an option for me. I know I want to. I feel and I am strong enough and have enough faith to bear that burden of triggers for the rest of my life for me and my kids if she is there with me to help. I also know now I need to see what she is willing to do to show me she is sincere and wants the same for the long haul. Being the the nice guy and being accountable for my mistakes, and owning them, while helpful for me in the long run has done nothing to help our current situation or to force any change in her. It has allowed her to continue on with the same destructive behavior. 

Looking back, she has become very narcissistic and reckless over the last year which has also contributed to how I have been reacting to her and part of our recent problems. Again, painfully now I know why. That was always something I had admired previously about her, how she was so beautiful and yet so warm, kind, compassionate, and down to earth. I wouldn't exactly say she was humble but there was always a down to earth feel about her. That has changed. Guys, I'm not fawning over her by any stretch just reflecting I guess and realizing how much she has changed in the last year. She has been up until now a very good person. I feel success with her career, power, money, etc. has allowed her to lose sight of what is important in life. I have always sought those same things but at my core, I have never lost sight of what really matters. To me, it's always been family and friends not money, power, fame or fortune.

She is still a very good mom to our kids (day to day) but man is this a HUGE f*** up and I also realize, before I get chastised, that her actions clearly are not a reflection of what a "good mom" would do - but you know what i mean.

Stay tuned.

I'm holding the line and keeping her accountable to coming clean with the truth. Offer up her high paying job. I know it's a risk for her, but she risked me and our family for him. 

What is she willing to risk to keep us?


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## warlock07

said that she thought I was trying to get revenge and what would I gain by ruining his life. She said it's not who you are.

This is enough to say where her mind is


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## remorseful strayer

warlock07 said:


> said that she thought I was trying to get revenge and what would I gain by ruining his life. She said it's not who you are.
> 
> This is enough to say where her mind is


OP, I agree with warlock's statement. 

If your wife made this statement, it sounds like an attempt to manipulate through blameshifting. 

By this point, she should not care what happens to the OM. He knew he was having and affair and that things could possibly end badly. They both did. 

In another post, I think I read that you said or implied that cheating was "out of character" for your wife. 

Well, if it was, she would be acting far more remorseful and regret the affair by now. 

The lack of sex does indicate pining for the OM. That is not the behavior of someone who is feeling remorse.


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## tom67

Expose the pos do not tell your wife then observe.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

A FORMER WW would not care if you ruin this guy's life.


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## Wazza

The notion that she hate OM is simplistic. Would you want to be close to someone who can love another guy enough to do what she did, then turn on him without regret?

I just reckon real life is more complex than that.


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## hopefulgirl

For a lot of people, power corrupts. Money too. Several wise, extremely rich folks are not planning to pass their fortunes on to their children because they know they wouldn't be doing them any favors. It could just mess them up big time. 

R is possible, but don't let your guard down yet. Stay wary.


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## happyman64

turnera said:


> A FORMER WW would not care if you ruin this guy's life.


You are right T.

She is no former WW.


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## carpenoctem

a POV:

'hate' is an emotion / feeling, and no one can decree that another 'hate' someone, and have it accomplished. 

but 'protecting' someone is a proactive action, which indicates a preferential (or at least well-disposed) attitude towards that person.

if she is really attempting reconciliation with her husband, that's the wrong camp to be in now.

and to expect 'greater maturity' in a recently betrayed spouse will also be an unrealistic stretch of human nature.


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## remorseful strayer

If she can't simply shut off lust for the affair partner, or still feels the need to protect him, then she is putting his feeling above her husband's. that's a dangerous sign, IMO, and based on my own experience. 

She need not hate the OM, but she need not be concerned about his life anymore. 

No contact includes no more fantasizing in your head about the affair partner. No pining about what could have been. 

If the person is really interested in reconciliation, the affair partner should no longer be on their mind. 

If they are still thinking about them, protecting them, pining for them, it was love and not just lust.

And, yes, that situation is far more complicated for the betrayed spouse.


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## moto164

Agree expose POS without telling wife first.


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## Road Scholar

She is getting her resume together and has agreed to show me progress each week with what she is doing toward that end and agrees that she can no longer stay at the same company even though they work in different states.

She still appears to be avoiding putting together the timeline. I will reinforce my need for that tonight before I committ again to reconciling or attempting to. I need to see that she is willing to do the hard things before I go there again. I truly ate sh*t for 5 months while being lied to and deceived after DDay1.

While she says it never would have worked, was a bad idea, a friendship that went too far, and it was never an option for her and that they were not planning their future together, I feel as though in her mind, it was her fantasy that they could be together as illogical as it is looking at it from reality. I think a part of her did - or possibly still does - love him. She says she doesn't although even last night as I was talking about her text to him. She said to me, "Well there were still feelings there." I said, "that was a week ago." I know it never would have worked. In the back of her head, I think she knows that too. I guess that's where reality messes with fantasy. Just as the reality of life, day-to-day responsibility, and work/family stress plays a part in everyone's life and keeps us all from fantasyland. Fantasyland doesn't have to take any of that into account, or living together, raising kids, getting them ready in the morning, making lunches, paying bills, getting them to all their activities, laundry, etc. etc. That's life...the good, the bad the ugly. But that's what I value and see the value in what I thought we were doing together. To me all of that is my fantasyland - the good, bad and ugly.

At any rate, we are back to being physically intimate with each other and I think maybe that is helping her find her way back to me. She is crying nearly every day and night and while I do comfort her because I still love her and still in love with her, I also hold back from being all in. I know she is in pain and confused. Hell, i've been in pain and confused for months, so welcome to the party you have created!! In my mind, it's simply been too short of a timeframe from DDay2 for everything to flip 180 degrees. Yet, part of me wants to believe...and be optimistic. I don't want it to come too easily for her though. I see the value in making her work for it and prove to me just how badly she wants this R. It would be easier for me to walk away now than 6 months or a year from now. I think. Maybe. 

When I ask about how on Wednesday she could send that text, "Wish you were here..." to now one week later where we're having sex again, and she wants to make it work and realizes how badly she f***ed everything up, cyring in the am, crying at night, crying at work, calling me all the time, etc. she says it was like a switch has flipped and she now sees things differently.

This am, she asked if I was in contact with his wife. I pretty much lost it. I said that should be the last thing you're worried about. She said she wants me to focus on us not them. So there are still warning signs that she may not be 100% here with me yet. But there are definite signs that she is on her way back. Maybe that's normal and it will take time until that connection to him is gone baby gone. 

For our family's sake, if it can be salvaged, that is what I want. I still lover her and don't want to put our kids through misery if we can pull ourselves from it and find a way to put this behind us. If she is committed to it, the next 5 months would go 100% better than the last 5 months. I couldn't understand why we weren't making better progress. I really gave it all I had - while not perfect by any stretch - dealling with my emotions over this has been tough. Especially when she was telling me how crappy things were and still with him - emotionally, physically probably, etc. I was reconciling solo. She has clearly been in a fog for months and not thinking clearly.

How long does it typically take to lift once the lightbulb goes on??

While I want to move forward an be positive, I feel she needs to provide the timeline as you all have stated. I struggle exposing the POS at work still because it may come back to her and that still is not what I want. I would have no problems exposing him if it did not come back to bite her. Not from a financial point of view but from a reputation point of view. I know many of you disagree and if you can convince me that it would do more good than harm to my situation/her situation/our situation I am open to it. I guess I still feel a need to protect her even though she has caused me so much pain and suffering.

I have not filed for D, but do plan on speaking to a lawyer to better understand what might lie ahead. Should I let her know this? I feel she doesn't know where my head is at or what my next move will be.


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## BK23

1 week is too short a time. Be wary of her crocodile tears. She thought she might actually lose you and she stepped up her game. Honestly, you can do better than her...


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## ArmyofJuan

Road Scholar said:


> How long does it typically take to lift once the lightbulb goes on??


If you are lucky, months.

When she starts to talk negatively about the OM as if she hates him THEN you will be on your real path to R. That won't happen overnight.

There's always a danger of false R at this stage (its more of the rule than the exception) so no matter how good things look always keep your guard up. They can flip-flop right out of the blue from "I love you and can't live without you" one minute to moving in with the OM the next. 

Her txt last week is a red flag and a sign that she has a LONG way to go yet to completely pulling out of her A. Don't be shocked if in a couple of months you find out she tried to contact him again.

Its a rough ride but only you know if its worth it. Make sure you stand your ground so she knows that if you catch her again she'll be out the door, no more chances.


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## moto164

Have you put the POS on cheaterville.


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## Shaggy

On the question of have you talked to his wife. The response I recommend is this:

Dear, I'm not ino having secrets between us. Right now I do not trust you not to defend and protect him. I don't trust you not to put him ahead of me. So I'm going to tell you that I won't tell you about anything I may or may not do there. Perhaps one day, when I know I can trust you again, that you've my back, we can talk about that, but not now.


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## hopefulgirl

Road Scholar said:


> How long does it typically take to lift once the lightbulb goes on??
> 
> While I want to move forward an be positive, I feel she needs to provide the timeline as you all have stated. I struggle exposing the POS at work still because it may come back to her and that still is not what I want. I would have no problems exposing him if it did not come back to bite her. Not from a financial point of view but from a reputation point of view. I know many of you disagree and if you can convince me that it would do more good than harm to my situation/her situation/our situation I am open to it. I guess I still feel a need to protect her even though she has caused me so much pain and suffering.
> 
> I have not filed for D, but do plan on speaking to a lawyer to better understand what might lie ahead. Should I let her know this? I feel she doesn't know where my head is at or what my next move will be.


Not weeks, but months for fog to fully lift. So foot-dragging on the timeline is partly due to this: she's not entirely out of la la land yet. If she could truly think clearly, she would be prioritizing saving your marriage and your family, and helping you heal above the pain and embarrassment she feels over doing the timeline. But she's not there yet, so it's hard for her to face the lying, the deception, and the cold hard facts of her adultery. As long as she keeps all the affair stuff in her head (fantasy land) it's not so ugly - on paper, it is what it IS.

Going to an attorney and letting her know isn't playing games - it's keeping your options open and it's one of the consequences of her behavior. You haven't decided yet, R or D, and information gathering is part of this ambivalent stage. Letting her know you're visiting the lawyer may help "burn off" a little more of the fog!

Waiting on the decision re exposing POS makes sense too as you are still gathering information and holding off on making big decisions. You can always do that later, but if you do it now you can't undo it. It's very early in the game for you - it's wise not to make any big decisions right now, especially ones that might be more out of anger. If you do it, you want to do it for the right reasons. If you hear from his wife that this is a pattern and he preys on women at this company who are subordinates, that might figure into your decision.


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## Wazza

If it were me...

Weekly updates on preparation of her resume? Please tell me I misread that, and you mean weekly updates on job hunting.

OMs wife. She doesn't get a say. I would tell her what I was doing after had done it, maybe, but no advance warning. And I would put as "I am better than to seek revenge on the guy. But as I sit here trying to decide whether to divorce, I think his wife has the right to make the same decision on the basis of truth, and I doubt she'll get it from him".

Side note may be that she can provide intelligence on your wife perhaps. 

And I would definitely talk to a lawyer and understand the legal and financial implications of divorce. Even if you reconcile, you will always know that your wife was willing to unilaterally destroy the marriage once. She could do so again, and allowances for this contingency should be in all your plans.


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## Silvr Surfer

So sad. It sounds like you are doing the right things. I too am worried by her continued focus on the OMs wife. Be strong.


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## Will_Kane

Road Scholar said:


> This am, she asked if I was in contact with his wife. I pretty much lost it. I said that should be the last thing you're worried about. She said she wants me to focus on us not them. So there are still warning signs that she may not be 100% here with me yet. But there are definite signs that she is on her way back. Maybe that's normal and it will take time until that connection to him is gone baby gone.


Take this to the bank: She is worried about him. He is the first thing on her mind when she wakes up, the last thing on her mind when she goes to bed.

Believe it or not, this a good sign. It shows she is not in contact with him. How easy would it be for her to contact him while at work? Even at home, using secretive methods? Very easy. But because she is asking that question, it shows that she is NOT.

This is normal. Remember the five months you weren't getting sex? And even before that? She was thinking about him morning, noon, and night. Her life was all about how to talk to him, how to be with him, so that you would not find out. It required her to devote a lot of thought to the other man. That doesn't just stop overnight.

A week ago, she was sitting in a bar, pining for other man - not for you.

Now, she is re-committing herself to you, but she still thinks of him. She was "in love" with him. She might not be now, but she still thinks of him positively.

Try to put yourself in her shoes. Here was a guy who was telling her wonderful things about her every time he talked to her. "You're so fun!" "You're so pretty!" "You're so sexy!" "I can't wait to see you again!" "You brighten up my day!" You can just imagine. Like you said, never an argument over the kids, over money, over the mess in the bathroom, over the broken water heater - just how great she was, all the time. Wouldn't it be hard for you to think ill of a person who told you all that?

If you want to hasten her getting over him, drop comments every now and then about what kind of guy cheats on his wife? Even though she is a cheater, she will identify with this because (1) she hates cheaters, she always did, and part of her still does and (2) she can imagine you cheating on her with another woman. If you have a son, ask what she would say if your son's wife cheated on him. If you have a daughter, ask her what she would think if her daughter's husband cheated on her, like other man did?

Things are better for you, and that is good, but not enough time has passed and she hasn't left the job yet. You are moving in the right direction, but you are far from where you want to be.

The key is for her to leave the job. Not just look. Leave.


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## Road Scholar

Wazza: Yes of course, updates on the job hunt but the resume updating is the first part of that. She is getting her networking contacts together also.

HopefulGirl: I agree to keep exposure at work on the table. For now I plan to hold that card in my hand and decide down the road whether I play it based on how this plays out and/or how I feel down the road. He/She was fully aware of this risk as I informed both early on.

ALSO, many have said exposing the A to everyone is a MUST. Is it really? I mean, I don't want to humiliate her and air our dirty laundry unneccessarily or create any feelings that I betrayed her by doing so if her mind is at R. I also don't necessarily want the world to know if we are successful at R. I know this is sorta backwards based on what she has done to me, but of the two R's - Revenge or Reconciliation I guess i choose the latter first and foremost. And I also know that she has NOT been thinking with a clear head. If it is helpful for the reconciliation - or a must as some have said - I'm curious as to why? Or can R accomplished without exposing to everyone and their mother? 

I guess what I don't want to have happen is this becomes such a negative toxic environment that she (nor I) cannot deal with it and bails because it is such a bad place to be (regardless how we got here). So it feels like a fine line between making her earn it and showing positive signs, hope and/or positive movement to be able to (at some point) move past this.


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## Wazza

I agree with you that exposure can do more harm than good, particularly if it is indiscriminate.

I would consider specific exposure for specific purposes. Revenge on OM not being one I would look at. And I don't see any big deal to not exposing at all.


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## MattMatt

Road Scholar said:


> Wazza: Yes of course, updates on the job hunt but the resume updating is the first part of that. She is getting her networking contacts together also.
> 
> HopefulGirl: I agree to keep exposure at work on the table. For now I plan to hold that card in my hand and decide down the road whether I play it based on how this plays out and/or how I feel down the road. He/She was fully aware of this risk as I informed both early on.
> 
> ALSO, many have said exposing the A to everyone is a MUST. Is it really? I mean, I don't want to humiliate her and air our dirty laundry unneccessarily or create any feelings that I betrayed her by doing so if her mind is at R. I also don't necessarily want the world to know if we are successful at R. I know this is sorta backwards based on what she has done to me, but of the two R's - Revenge or Reconciliation I guess i choose the latter first and foremost. And I also know that she has NOT been thinking with a clear head. If it is helpful for the reconciliation - or a must as some have said - I'm curious as to why? Or can R accomplished without exposing to everyone and their mother?
> 
> I guess what I don't want to have happen is this becomes such a negative toxic environment that she (nor I) cannot deal with it and bails because it is such a bad place to be (regardless how we got here). So it feels like a fine line between making her earn it and showing positive signs, hope and/or positive movement to be able to (at some point) move past this.


I told nobody. But with what subsequently happened, rugsweeping, stupid revenge affair, maybe we should have told people?


----------



## just got it 55

just got it 55 said:


> Along with the betrayal and the lies
> 
> This is the worst of it. It’s crushing humiliation.
> 
> Unimaginable cruelty .How does one recover from this ?


RS how are you handling the humiliation

This is an enormously powerful emotion don’t let it destroy your psyche 

But use it as motivation to get to where you need to be
This would kill me and most men

Down the line in time it will build during your anger stage, it will be the primary force and fuel for anger.

Keep this in mind when you are trying to gain control of it .What actions can you demonstrate to overcome this?


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## harrybrown

So what are the consequences to her cheating? What will stop her the next time? You are not exposing? What?


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## RyanBingham

harrybrown said:


> So what are the consequences to her cheating? What will stop her the next time? You are not exposing? What?


At least put a plan together to expose to her friends and family so that this isn't rug-sweep again the 2nd time.


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## Will_Kane

Road Scholar said:


> ALSO, many have said exposing the A to everyone is a MUST. Is it really? I mean, I don't want to humiliate her and air our dirty laundry unneccessarily or create any feelings that I betrayed her by doing so if her mind is at R. I also don't necessarily want the world to know if we are successful at R. I know this is sorta backwards based on what she has done to me, but of the two R's - Revenge or Reconciliation I guess i choose the latter first and foremost. And I also know that she has NOT been thinking with a clear head. If it is helpful for the reconciliation - or a must as some have said - I'm curious as to why? Or can R accomplished without exposing to everyone and their mother?
> 
> I guess what I don't want to have happen is this becomes such a negative toxic environment that she (nor I) cannot deal with it and bails because it is such a bad place to be (regardless how we got here). So it feels like a fine line between making her earn it and showing positive signs, hope and/or positive movement to be able to (at some point) move past this.


Exposure is a useful tool, but it is situational. Not every situation calls for it. It can help a lot; it also can hurt a lot. Once you do it, though, it's done and can't be taken back.

In your situation, my opinion is to hold off on exposing until there is a relapse - you find out she is in contact with the other man again and they are being friendly.

You can expect that she will be in contact with him at work. She may not tell you, but it almost definitely will happen. She will get her "closure." This is to be expected. Pay attention to changes in her behavior to see if it's starting back up. Would be a good idea to keep keyloggers and VARs in place, too, at least until she's out of that job.

You also can expect more lies to come out about the affair. Once you get the timeline, you easily will be able to pick out some parts that just don't make sense. She will lie about some of what she puts on the timeline, minimize some things. It is painful for the repentant cheater to admit to some of the egregious behavior they engaged in. She may lie about how long the affair lasted or how many times they hooked up. Lying and minimizing is to be expected, they will hold on to some things even for a few months afterward.

Even if she doesn't talk to other man at work, I consider her to still be "in contact" as long as they work for the same company and she sees his name on company emails, internal project plans, and such. Anything that makes her think about him is "contact." She won't fully be into reconciliation until she's gone from that job and contact has truly ended. I won't say there are no cases where they continued to work together and the marriage recovered, but it is extremely rare.

Keep your eye on the ball and don't be swayed too much by her words, or crying, or looking depressed. Sure, she feels bad about hurting you, but she also feels bad about losing other man - that's a big part of it. Pay attention to actions. Prepare a resume - big deal. Go on interviews - big deal. You are looking for actions that affect her life and show evidence of her distancing herself from other man and the affair, as distinguished from lip service and going through the motions.

If the sex is working out for you, keep at it. But don't let her use it to manipulate you. She is not "all in" yet, and she is beginning to feel she has weathered the storm. It should take a few hours to put together a timeline. It's easy to do if you just write the truth. It takes longer if you have to make sure your lies all line up. 

What is taking her so long to give you the timeline?


----------



## turnera

Exposure should be done when you confront your cheating spouse and tell them you expect them to stop and they either refuse or agree but you catch them still cheating. It is done to wake the cheaters up and make them too embarrassed to continue the affair. That's why you expose ONLY to the people whose respect they crave (parents, best friend, priest, siblings).

Will she be mad? Maybe, maybe not. I've seen it about 50/50, and of the half that get mad, half of them end up crying and ashamed and apologetic. Once the fog has lifted, however, they are likely to understand WHY you did what you did and not hold it against you.

But none of that will happen, they will almost never end the affair on their own (except years later), if you don't expose.

ETA: You can also expose at work IF they both work there and exposing will get rid of the cheating spouse's OW/OM.


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## weightlifter

RS. Count me in the column of not being a big fan of work exposure UNLESS you get to wreck the OM with impunity. IE not wrecking your wife's career. Should you simply not have it in you the last thing you want in a career crippled ex!

Now I am a HUGE fan of exposure to all first circle friends and first circle relatives.

Let me confirm something you suspect. I have had access to cheating wives both directly and indirectly through these boards. (People talk to me because I dont out them unless they release me) MANY women actively disengage part of their brains (Compartmentalize is the closest word I can come up with but it also includes a strong dose of reckless abandon) when having an affair in the early stages. When she says she does not know how she felt in the week before or even on the way to that first hook up, she is likely telling the truth.

Hopefully you printed my list after getting rid of the sex acts YOU and only YOU dont want to try and make it part of the contract for considering R. For the 5 months of pain, she needs to become YOUR wanton wh0re giving herself fully to you and in that same process letting you know exactly whatever kink it is will give her that toe curling O no matter how dirty it is. (dont wanna know info is for you and you alone)


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## cledus_snow

very selfish of you to keep the discovery of the affair to yourself, if the other BS is still in the dark. she has as much right to know as you did. tell me..... wouldn't you like to know if the shoe was on the other foot?


you are protecting your wife from due consequences at every turn at the expense of others who are involved. namely, this POS's wife. although very admirable, your love for your wife is seriously clouding your judgment. 


the only reason you're getting back on track is because you came here and started to take up the advice that was being given. if you wouldn't have done this, you'd still be in limbo with an unremorseful wife due to your rugsweeping. take the advice and act on it, including exposure. 


this has been said many times here before- "You must be willing to lose your marriage in order to save it."


----------



## illwill

Cheaters tend to know their spouses better than the betrayed know their cheaters. They use the potential humiliation from exposure as insurance that they will be given a pass. You are also giving the waywards a soft place to land, which eliminates some of the necessary consequences, that could aid in reconciling. Oh yeah, and you are also protecting the affair, which feeds into the cheaters manual.


----------



## illwill

You wife's willingness to accept all the negative consequences will give you a indication if she is worthy of even the mere consideration of reconciliation. But i sense you don't really want to know if she is worthy.


----------



## lordmayhem

What a sad, but typical case. An affair right out of the Cheaters Handbook. She follows the Cheaters Script exactly play by play: 

*No sex after an affair = affair is still active. She's faithful to her OM.*

Yet another play out of the handbook: The WS claims the other betrayed spouse already knows about the affair and doesn't care, OR the WS claims the other spouse is batsh!t crazy. *Listen, if the other spouse knows about the affair, she would be raking the OM over the coals in a divorce because he has so much to lose.* 

RS, listen to the advice you've been given by those who have been in your shoes. Ignore the advice and things will be worse. You can take that to the bank.


----------



## lordmayhem

cledus_snow said:


> very selfish of you to keep the discovery of the affair to yourself, if the other BS is still in the dark. she has as much right to know as you did. tell me..... wouldn't you like to know if the shoe was on the other foot?
> 
> 
> you are protecting your wife from due consequences at every turn at the expense of others who are involved. namely, this POS's wife. although very admirable, your love for your wife is seriously clouding your judgment.
> 
> 
> the only reason you're getting back on track is because you came here and started to take up the advice that was being given. if you wouldn't have done this, you'd still be in limbo with an unremorseful wife due to your rugsweeping. take the advice and act on it, including exposure.
> 
> 
> this has been said many times here before- "You must be willing to lose your marriage in order to save it."


:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:


----------



## Remains

Acabado said:


> and......pushing the right bottoms of the nice guy, guilty tripping.


Acabado, I just LOVE your typos!


----------



## WyshIknew

Quick question.

Do any of you feel that once RS's wife has left this place of employment a simple letter addressed to any interested parties, (HR, CEO?) might be of benefit?

Just simply stating that the reason for my wife leaving your place of employment was an affair with MrX.

Perhaps include something like "I do not want to pursue any legal course of action but felt you should know the character of this man, and would hate to think he will do this with other employees as it cannot be conducive to good morale within your workplace."

I don't know if that is petty revenge but it's what I'd do.

There is a poster I think called Russ 101, something like that who posted on a thread that his lawyer has advised him that he can expect hush money of $150,000 due to his wifes affair with her boss.

Just sayin'


----------



## Shaggy

The OM is a high level executive. From my experience high level executives that screw around at work do it many times, not just one woman.

They'll have a list of secretaries they've dated, juniors who where loving the attention from the big shot and hoped they'd get a career boost from it, doors opened etc.

So frankly, reporting the guy to hr is the decent thing to do the minute after your wife gives her notice. It may save other marriages down the line.


----------



## tulsy

Road Scholar said:


> ...
> ALSO, many have said exposing the A to everyone is a MUST. Is it really? I mean,* I don't want to humiliate her* and air our dirty laundry unneccessarily or create any feelings that* I betrayed her by doing so *if her mind is at R. I also don't necessarily want the world to know if we are successful at R. I know this is sorta backwards based on what she has done to me, but of the two R's - Revenge or Reconciliation I guess i choose the latter first and foremost....


It always amazes me when the BS is so overly concerned with not hurting the cheaters feelings, and not betraying them in any way. Especially when the cheater is so focused on not exposing their AP, and continuously insinuates how exposure isn't a good idea. 

The cheater wants to protect their lover and themselves, above the concern of the BS' feelings, and the BS enables them to do this. Meanwhile, the AP's spouse is still oblivious to the affair, and the BS is now helping to protect the cheating spouse and their lover, the 2 people who have hurt them the most.


----------



## LostViking

Where did OP go?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## warlock07

Maybe she is reconciling because she is more worried about her reputation and image at this point than anything. How would you know that she really wants to reconcile?

What actually changed after you found her text message ?? It was not even Dday1. 


To betray you, she must have your trust first. You mention her crying a lot after D-day 2 but please don't be fooled by that. Her words suggest other wise. They don't even make sense. If you intend to believe her blindly again like the last two times, you are just setting yourself up for more pain. She could well be continuing the deception out of fear of exposure at work.

How would she react if you expose her at work ?


----------



## Road Scholar

To clarify, I have attempted twice to notify his wife via mailed letter to his home address as well as attempted to call her at her home. I believe the home phone has been deactivated recently. So she may not know and he is trying to make sure she doesn't find out. I suppose a certified letter would do the trick?

Of course I want to see if she is "worthy" of reconciliation, but I don't want to make a bad situation worse. I'm not convinced that exposing her to everyone we know and causing her to be publicly humiliated is the only way to know whether she is remorseful or worthy of another chance. I'm torn to be honest. Of course I want to know that she is 100% committed to reconciling. I guess in truth, I know she still has doubts about it - doubts about whether we can move forward and move past this to a better place. To be perfectly honest, I'm not 100% sure I can or should either at this point. She cheated on me, lied and deceived me for a very long time, went through a false reconciliation where she was still in contact with him and probably much more, and now after me finding out and telling her it's over and I'm filing for D, she sees the light and errors of her ways. I want to give it a shot for my kids and try to keep the family together if we can get to the point of being happy. 

When she expresses any doubt about things working out, while normal I suppose makes me NOT want to try and makes me feel like walking away now without going through it again. Nobody would expect me to file and divorce her. They would figure out pretty quick what happened.

I know there are no guarantees with any of this but up until now Divorce has never really something I have been in favor of or a real option in my mind, while it has always been for her coming from a divorced family. I have always had the mindset of working through problems and getting to the other side. That was my position during the first attempt at R after finding out about the affair. I know the road ahead will be very difficult, more difficult now and I don't know that she has the ability to make it through the tough times ahead. I could see her just giving up saying we're "not happy" or "we don't make each other happy anymore". I may not be able to get past this, forgive what has happened and may never be able to look at her without her lies and deception being part of what I see.

When I see her remorseful and tearful, I feel better it actually makes me feel good (that she cares and is sorry) and more in control of the situation and more willing to reconcile. When I see her stronger and more confident, like nothing happened, I feel resentful and feel like I want to or should get divorced. Is that normal? Will that ever change? I mean i know that she can't continue to beat herself up about it constantly nor can I and have this work where we are both happy together, but if I resent when she feels good/better this is just not going to work out.


----------



## Hicks

Exposure is only to kill affairs.
It's a dramatic tactic that is not necessary for wives who are remorseful and who ended the affair.


----------



## tom67

For now just make sure his wife knows. Hey if you have to hire a pi in om city to tell her do it sooner rather than later.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

If your wife says she wants to R, there's no reason to expose to anyone except OM's wife. SHE needs to know so that she can (1) decide if she wants to stay with a cheater and (2) help you keep OM away from your wife by keeping vigilant about his activities.


----------



## turnera

And a certified letter that only SHE can sign for would work.


----------



## hopefulgirl

> When I see her remorseful and tearful, I feel better it actually makes me feel good (that she cares and is sorry) and more in control of the situation and more willing to reconcile. When I see her stronger and more confident, like nothing happened, I feel resentful and feel like I want to or should get divorced. Is that normal? Will that ever change? I mean i know that she can't continue to beat herself up about it constantly nor can I and have this work where we are both happy together, but if I resent when she feels good/better this is just not going to work out.


It's completely normal to feel better about R when you see obvious signs that she feels bad about what she did, and more inclined to D when she's more chipper. This is why all the experts tell waywards that they CANNOT apologize too often, and why I told my husband that too. Almost daily apologies help me because his affair is STILL on my mind daily almost 8 months past D-Day - and when he's all smiley and happy about things, it's as if he forgets that I still have a lot of healing to do. He'd like the affair to fade into the past, but it's not that simple. We have work to do, and HE especially has work to do to help me with my healing. I'm grieving and traumatized - you don't just "get over" this, like some little spat has happened in the marriage. No, the marriage has been blown apart. Nuked. 

The cheaters did big time damage, and as long as they're mindful of that, and we know - daily - that they're mindful of that, we have hope about R. Which is not a quick process. It seems from what I've read that a good two years is needed for most BS's to start to feel they've been able to let down their guard enough to feel something resembling "normal" and "comfortable" (though we'll never trust 100%).


----------



## turnera

Have you read calvin and CSS's thread?


----------



## Road Scholar

turnera said:


> Have you read calvin and CSS's thread?


I have read through all of these threads but don't recall those.
:scratchhead:


----------



## CASE_Sensitive

Some of them might be in the Private Members forum


----------



## Road Scholar

When I read through these threads, I just feeling like filing and being done and moving on. But I know it's not that simple. Life gets real complicated with D and plus I know the pain I woudl inflict on my own kids for the mistakes we made in the marriage and for her ridiculous AFFAIR. I truly believe I would leave if not for my kids and family. Too much work, too much pain and too many unknowns about whether any of it would work. Maybe that is the answer.

Last night I felt she was trying to turn the tables during a discussion we had. I left and said fine, let's file and get it over with. She asked me to come back in the room. We kept talking and we got past it. She found out about me sending her counselor a note asking her to reach out to my wife. I knew it might have been inappropriate but I did it anyhow. I told her about the false R and that our life may not have been as bad as she portrayed it. In short she was mad I sent it and felt it was somewhat retaliatory. Maybe part of it was self-serving, part of it was that I wanted her to get back into therapy because I feel she is very screwed up right now. After DD1 I said it feels like you have been brainwashed into what you are saying/thinking. I also sent her friend a note asking her for support and to give her a wake up call and she has been engaged in very destructive behavior which has put our marriage in jeapordy and help her to think about what's important in her life. She did not know about that initially, but I told her since she asked if I contacted anyone else. I don't want to become a liar and have always been very truthful - maybe to a fault. She was pissed at that also and felt it was self-serving and done out of revenge. I think she looked at it as me going public with a "very personal and private matter". In looking at it now, it may have been done for a couple reasons 1) out of concern and looking for help and positive support from friends/family 2) maybe a little lashing out or self serving to get my side of the story out there.

I definitely feel like I am in a position to be manipulated as long as I am starting to think about R which sucks because I want to be positive but also do not want to rug sweep this. I simply feel if she tries to put this on me and tries to share the blame of this I cannot and will not accept it and I will have no alternative. She has always had a hard time looking at herself unless ABSOLUTELY forced to. My threat of D did that initially and now feels like she is backing off that somewhat.


----------



## Road Scholar

CASE_Sensitive said:


> Some of them might be in the Private Members forum


Still new here...not sure how to get there or if I can. RS


----------



## Road Scholar

I'm thinking maybe I just move out this weekend. Give me time to think. Force her to think about just what she's done to our family.


----------



## azteca1986

Road Scholar said:


> I simply feel if she tries to put this on me and tries to share the blame of this I cannot and will not accept it and I will have no alternative.


This is good. Stick to this.


----------



## tom67

Road Scholar said:


> I'm thinking maybe I just move out this weekend. Give me time to think. Force her to think about just what she's done to our family.


She is on your timetable now if she doesn't like that too bad.


----------



## theroad

cledus_snow said:


> very selfish of you to keep the discovery of the affair to yourself, if the other BS is still in the dark. she has as much right to know as you did. tell me..... wouldn't you like to know if the shoe was on the other foot?
> 
> 
> you are protecting your wife from due consequences at every turn at the expense of others who are involved. namely, this POS's wife. although very admirable, your love for your wife is seriously clouding your judgment.
> 
> 
> the only reason you're getting back on track is because you came here and started to take up the advice that was being given. if you wouldn't have done this, you'd still be in limbo with an unremorseful wife due to your rugsweeping. take the advice and act on it, including exposure.
> 
> 
> this has been said many times here before- "You must be willing to lose your marriage in order to save it."



Telling the OMW can result in the OMW putting her foot down and make the OM find a new job so she has NC in place.


----------



## theroad

turnera said:


> And a certified letter that only SHE can sign for would work.


Very important fact that you tell the post office that only the Person addressed can sign for the letter.


----------



## BobSimmons

Road Scholar said:


> I'm thinking maybe I just move out this weekend. Give me time to think. Force her to think about just what she's done to our family.


That's punishment. Do you want to punish her? Or maybe you moving out gives her the freedom to contact OM without you looking over her shoulder.

All this seems to be a play to skate around the issue. You can't guilt trip someone by your actions. You either bring the truth to her then make her to confront it (if she wants to), if she's unremorseful (or backing off as you put it) then space won't force her into anything..you're just giving her move room to back into.


----------



## Wazza

I stayed for the kids. It worked out for me, but part of that is that my wife is fundamentally a good choice for me. And the trouble is you can't know that until you try.

The faults that let me wife get into the affair are part of her still. There were some extreme curcumstances that will not repeat, and she has learned from her mistakes, but I can never totally rule out the risk of a repeat.

The other thing is, I took a lot of time out. Went for walks by a local river (water is a source of serenity for me), worked long hours. Really just left the marriage as a ruin for a while. In retrospect I don't know if that is a good thing (over time we healed) or a bad thing (took longer to heal than we should have).

I think in your shoes some time out might help, but then one day you have to either divorce or walk back through that door. It used to be sometimes I would walk into the house after work, and then have to turn around and walk back out again as the emotions hit.

Truly sucks but you get through. We are in a good place now.

Every time I read a story about some step parent or live in love interest abusing the kids, I am glad I stayed. My kids were never exposed to that risk. No judgement implied for anyone who chose differently.

Right now Mrs Wazza and I are busy babysitting one of our grandkids. Years of shared memories and experiences post affair. Never totally goes away, but it gets better, or did for us.

Time to stop typing. The little one is busy and will need changing....ewwww. Most things about grandkids are fun.


----------



## Wazza

BobSimmons said:


> That's punishment. Do you want to punish her? Or maybe you moving out gives her the freedom to contact OM without you looking over her shoulder.
> 
> All this seems to be a play to skate around the issue. You can't guilt trip someone by your actions. You either bring the truth to her then make her to confront it (if she wants to), if she's unremorseful (or backing off as you put it) then space won't force her into anything..you're just giving her move room to back into.


Doesn't have to be punishment. Time to think can be good. As can making the seriousness of things clear.

If they reconcile they will always still be just that bit closer to divorce. I find it helpful to acknowledge. And while I am not into power games, there is no doubt that making it clear you are willing to walk away can be healthy for a marriage.


----------



## TOMTEFAR

Road Scholar said:


> Still new here...not sure how to get there or if I can. RS


Once you reach 30 posts you will be able to enter the private forum. SO 30 posts and some time and it will happen. I actually sent a PM to one of the moderators as well when I reached 30 posts. But I don't know if that is nessesary.


----------



## TOMTEFAR

BobSimmons said:


> That's punishment. Do you want to punish her? Or maybe you moving out gives her the freedom to contact OM without you looking over her shoulder.
> 
> All this seems to be a play to skate around the issue. You can't guilt trip someone by your actions. You either bring the truth to her then make her to confront it (if she wants to), if she's unremorseful (or backing off as you put it) then space won't force her into anything..you're just giving her move room to back into.


That is not punishment. You need time for yourself in this situation. Time to Think without the WS beeing there and without other distractions. It also has the benefit of showing the WS the seriouseness of the situation. It's only punishment if it is done to punish the WS which it's not in this case...


----------



## Syco

The cheating partner should be the person leaving the house.


----------



## Will_Kane

If you are not hurting for money, just hire a private investigator to deliver the letter to her in person.


----------



## Will_Kane

Road Scholar said:


> When I see her remorseful and tearful, I feel better it actually makes me feel good (that she cares and is sorry) and more in control of the situation and more willing to reconcile. When I see her stronger and more confident, like nothing happened, I feel resentful and feel like I want to or should get divorced. Is that normal? Will that ever change?


She has to be respectful of you in all situations. Not necessarily agree with you, but be respectful in her disagreements. Think before she speaks and not let anything come out harshly. That's if she wants to help you get over it. For the truly remorseful cheaters, they seem to know this intuitively.

What you are feeling is normal. It will be like that for a while, until the passage of some amount of time, of waking up and going to bed and waking up and going to be and waking up and going to bed over and over without any signs of her continuing contact and with signs she is committed to the marriage. *That feeling won't really improve for you until she leaves the job*. By a year or so out, if all goes well, you will be a lot closer to how you used to feel. Never 100% back to normal, but maybe you can get close enough.


----------



## Chaparral

tulsy said:


> It always amazes me when the BS is so overly concerned with not hurting the cheaters feelings, and not betraying them in any way. Especially when the cheater is so focused on not exposing their AP, and continuously insinuates how exposure isn't a good idea.
> 
> The cheater wants to protect their lover and themselves, above the concern of the BS' feelings, and the BS enables them to do this. Meanwhile, the AP's spouse is still oblivious to the affair, and the BS is now helping to protect the cheating spouse and their lover, the 2 people who have hurt them the most.


This attitude.............and ending up here.................coincidence or cause and effect?


----------



## RyanBingham

TOMTEFAR said:


> Once you reach 30 posts you will be able to enter the private forum. SO 30 posts and some time and it will happen. I actually sent a PM to one of the moderators as well when I reached 30 posts. But I don't know if that is nessesary.


This is my magical 30 post. Now it's all downhill from here...


----------



## Will_Kane

Road Scholar said:


> She found out about me sending her counselor a note asking her to reach out to my wife. *I told her about the false R and that our life may not have been as bad as she portrayed it*. In short she was mad I sent it and felt it was somewhat *retaliatory*.
> 
> I also sent her friend a note *asking her for support and to give her a wake up call and she has been engaged in very destructive behavior which has put our marriage in jeapordy and help her to think about what's important in her life*. She did not know about that initially, but I told her since she asked if I contacted anyone else. She was pissed at that also and felt it was self-serving and done out of *revenge*.
> 
> I think she looked at it as me going public with a *"very personal and private matter"*.


Your wife is very self-centered. Not a good sign. Meanwhile, she imputes very bad motives to your actions. Ask her, who is more to blame here, the one who cheated and lied about it, or the one who told the truth about it?

All you did was tell the truth to people she lied to. She lied by omission. She lied by telling them things about your marriage that omitted a very significant fact - that she was cheating.

I think the reason she is mad is because she wants to prolong the lie. She doesn't want to own up to her shortcomings, she wants to be able to leave others thinking that you are to blame.

Does she ever ask about how bad you were hurt? Would it be natural for her to assume that you did these things because of the way she hurt you? * Is it all just about her?*

Tell your wife that this is HER LIFE and this also is YOUR LIFE. And you are allowed to talk to people and tell the truth about your own life. You want to feel that people are judging you accurately based on all the facts, not the lies and omissions that your wife told or remained silent about.

*Tell her that you reserve the right to set the record straight* wherever you feel that lies were told, either directly or by omission.

She cheated. You are the victim. She is the perpetrator. She is asking you to remain silent and take the heat as the bad guy who caused the marital problems. Don't do it.


----------



## Chaparral

This is my number one concern and mentioned by Wazza and Christian counselors. The amount of abuse that goes on by step parents of their partners kids. They counsel to do everything in your power to keep your kids from living with males that are not blood kin........especially daughters.

Think about that and ask your wife how she will feel if you get divorced and her children will end up with another mother.

I would think you will do better find a good spouse. To be honest, there is no telling what a woman like your wife might drag home with her new reputation.


----------



## harrybrown

She seems to be crying because she got caught and had to end the affair. Is she sorry she ripped your heart out twice?


----------



## Will_Kane

Road Scholar said:


> I'm thinking maybe I just move out this weekend. Give me time to think. Force her to think about just what she's done to our family.


If you need time to think, leave the house for a few hours and tell her you need time to think.

If you move out this weekend, will she have more time to think or will she have even less time to think with sole responsibility for the kids?

I don't think moving out is going to help her or you.

My advice would be to stop talking about the affair for the time being, let her sit and write the timeline instead. Is she working on it? Did she start it yet? Let's see what she writes. Let's see if she fesses up to screwing the other man during the past five months. 

*Focus on actions.*

When does she think the timeline will be ready?

Is the resume finished? Has she started looking for jobs? Gone to any headhunters?

When does she think she'll be able to leave the company?

She had a lot of time to devote to the affair. Please tell me that she has time to devote to what the marriage needs, also, especially now that she doesn't have to spend so much time talking to the other man about the affair.


----------



## Wazza

Will_Kane said:


> If you need time to think, leave the house for a few hours and tell her you need time to think.
> 
> If you move out this weekend, will she have more time to think or will she have even less time to think with sole responsibility for the kids?
> 
> I don't think moving out is going to help her or you.
> 
> My advice would be to stop talking about the affair for the time being, let her sit and write the timeline instead. Is she working on it? Did she start it yet? Let's see what she writes. Let's see if she fesses up to screwing the other man during the past five months.
> 
> *Focus on actions.*
> 
> When does she think the timeline will be ready?
> 
> Is the resume finished? Has she started looking for jobs? Gone to any headhunters?
> 
> When does she think she'll be able to leave the company?
> 
> She had a lot of time to devote to the affair. Please tell me that she has time to devote to what the marriage needs, also, especially now that she doesn't have to spend so much time talking to the other man about the affair.


Very hard not to talk about it, or at least think about it. Kind of explodes out of you.


----------



## hopefulgirl

Road Scholar said:


> When I read through these threads, I just feeling like filing and being done and moving on. But I know it's not that simple. Life gets real complicated with D and plus I know the pain I woudl inflict on my own kids for the mistakes we made in the marriage and for her ridiculous AFFAIR. I truly believe I would leave if not for my kids and family. Too much work, too much pain and too many unknowns about whether any of it would work. Maybe that is the answer.
> 
> Last night I felt she was trying to turn the tables during a discussion we had. I left and said fine, let's file and get it over with. She asked me to come back in the room. We kept talking and we got past it. She found out about me sending her counselor a note asking her to reach out to my wife. I knew it might have been inappropriate but I did it anyhow. I told her about the false R and that our life may not have been as bad as she portrayed it. In short she was mad I sent it and felt it was somewhat retaliatory. Maybe part of it was self-serving, part of it was that I wanted her to get back into therapy because I feel she is very screwed up right now. After DD1 I said it feels like you have been brainwashed into what you are saying/thinking. I also sent her friend a note asking her for support and to give her a wake up call and she has been engaged in very destructive behavior which has put our marriage in jeapordy and help her to think about what's important in her life. She did not know about that initially, but I told her since she asked if I contacted anyone else. I don't want to become a liar and have always been very truthful - maybe to a fault. She was pissed at that also and felt it was self-serving and done out of revenge. I think she looked at it as me going public with a "very personal and private matter". In looking at it now, it may have been done for a couple reasons 1) out of concern and looking for help and positive support from friends/family 2) maybe a little lashing out or self serving to get my side of the story out there.
> 
> I definitely feel like I am in a position to be manipulated as long as I am starting to think about R which sucks because I want to be positive but also do not want to rug sweep this. I simply feel if she tries to put this on me and tries to share the blame of this I cannot and will not accept it and I will have no alternative. She has always had a hard time looking at herself unless ABSOLUTELY forced to. My threat of D did that initially and now feels like she is backing off that somewhat.


One of the books I've read says she didn't consult you about her affair, so now is the time when "YOU get to" call the shots. Will there be R? You get to decide that. If so, when? You get to decide. Will you expose this "personal and private matter?" You get to decide.

As for her getting into counseling now, it may or may not be beneficial. She's probably going to be less than honest, even to an individual counselor. You'd think that's one place where a wayward would be open, but no - at this early stage, they're still very used to lies and deception, even deceiving themselves. So it's best to hold off on MC for sure, and often IC for awhile too, unless someone indicates a strong willingness to explore their own character flaws and what could have led them to do what they did. Unless she's expressing a strong desire to really face the facts and look deep into herself and her issues, IC might be premature.

This early stage is awful. No getting around that fact. I encourage you to read NOT Just Friends and/or How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair for some ideas about how to try to "repair the couple." In depth talks right now are guaranteed to be nightmarish, but you have to have SOME talking about the affair ("lift the lid a little bit" to let off some steam) or else you'll go nuts.


----------



## turnera

Road Scholar said:


> I'm thinking maybe I just move out this weekend. Give me time to think. Force her to think about just what she's done to our family.


 NEVER move out if you have kids at home unless your lawyer says so.

Smarter to just GO OUT and HAVE FUN. Without her. Let her see what YOUR life will be like without her - while you're still in the house.


----------



## Shaggy

Tricks to deliver the letter to the OMW

1. Send it in her name, but to the neighbors address. They get it and give it to her

2. Find her parents and sent it to them with her name of it,

3. Hire a process server to give it to her. They are very good at what they do.

4. Do they have kids? Figure out the school they go to, send it addressed to her, but at the school address


----------



## Wazza

turnera said:


> NEVER move out if you have kids at home unless your lawyer says so.
> 
> Smarter to just GO OUT and HAVE FUN. Without her. Let her see what YOUR life will be like without her - while you're still in the house.


I agree with taking legal advice before moving out, to protect your rights in the case of divorce.

But going out and having fun is terrible advice if you want to reconcile. You don't find peace by escalating a war. The baggage of this will already hurt forever. Adding to it is as smart as sitting there sticking needles into your eyeballs.


----------



## cledus_snow

it just seems like your wife's only concern is her reputation. she's always getting in a tiff about people knowing what she's done. that should be the least of her concerns. 

first, she didn't want you to inform OM's wife..... always asking if you've taken that step. then, she got her panties in a bunch because you sent a note to her counselor. now, it's because you reached out to her friend. all the while, she's accusing you of "retaliatory" and "self-serving" behavior. 

she may very well be remorseful and guilt-ridden, but the reasons for it seem to be a form of damage control. trying to appease you so as not to expose her for the cheating wife that she is.

only until you "blow this up" can you begin to rebuild again.


----------



## turnera

Wazza said:


> I agree with taking legal advice before moving out, to protect your rights in the case of divorce.
> 
> But going out and having fun is terrible advice if you want to reconcile. You don't find peace by escalating a war. The baggage of this will already hurt forever. Adding to it is as smart as sitting there sticking needles into your eyeballs.


 Agree to disagree. He needs to GAL. I'm not talking dating or turning into a *****hound. I'm talking reconnecting with his friends, taking classes, taking up sports, all the stuff he was when he was dating her.


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## Road Scholar

She admitted to being with him physically during the 5 months. Now I don't believe it was only one time. Still believe she is in damage control mode or trickle truth as some have commented. Its hard to say goodbye to what was my life but might be harder go stay. Really don't know and of course want to protect the kids from the looming hurt.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## warlock07

Road Scholar said:


> She admitted to being with him physically during the 5 months. Now I don't believe it was only one time. Still believe she is in damage control mode or trickle truth as some have commented. Its hard to say goodbye to what was my life but might be harder go stay. Really don't know and of course want to protect the kids from the looming hurt.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not really a surprise,is it? What prompted her to confess? Did you find anything new?

And you really understand what that means, right?

She won't have sex with you because she was remaining faithful to her lover. There is a word for that.


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## LostViking

Road Scholar said:


> She admitted to being with him physically during the 5 months. Now I don't believe it was only one time. Still believe she is in damage control mode or trickle truth as some have commented. Its hard to say goodbye to what was my life but might be harder go stay. Really don't know and of course want to protect the kids from the looming hurt.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's why I think you need to see a lawyer and file for divorce. You need to get the ball rolling so that next year at this time you are not whining that no progress has been made with her and you are still on limbo. You can always stop a divorce but you are in a rut and you need to make some forward progress.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Road Scholar

LostViking said:


> That's why I think you need to see a lawyer and file for divorce. You need to get the ball rolling so that next year at this time you are not whining that no progress has been made with her and you are still on limbo. You can always stop a divorce but you are in a rut and you need to make some forward progress.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sadly I think I agree. At least it will expose the truth. Yes I think she loved him. She claims she doesn't now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## illwill

You should have filed already. And what is actually your dealbreaker? Do you have one? And staying for the kids can be honorable or a excuse.


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## Road Scholar

Road Scholar said:


> Sadly I think I agree. At least it will expose the truth. Yes I think she loved him. She claims she doesn't now.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I assumed the PA was still on....now I assume that it went beyond just the one time she is admitting to now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WyshIknew

I'd be so tempted to nuke the twat of an OM at their workplace.


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## bryanp

Well now you know. If the roles were reversed she never would have put up with such humiliation and disrespect from you so why are you tolerating it? Enough is enough. If you do not respect yourself then who will? Good luck.


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## azteca1986

Road Scholar said:


> I assumed the PA was still on....now I assume that it went beyond just the one time she is admitting to now.


Of course it did.


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## Road Scholar

warlock07 said:


> Not really a surprise,is it? What prompted her to confess? Did you find anything new?
> 
> And you really understand what that means, right?
> 
> She won't have sex with you because she was remaining faithful to her lover. There is a word for that.


She confessed after we were talking this am about her timeline or lack thereof thus far. I told her she hasn't provided me what I had told her I needed to be able to move forward. She said that she doesn't understand how it will help, I already know what has happened and wants to move forward.

Eventually we got around to the last 5 months. I asked her again, when she seemingly was willing to be truthful how many times she saw him in the last 5 months. She told me twice and was with him physically one time. I can't believe that is the full truth yet. I'm pretty sure it was going on for awhile. When my gut was aching, something was up and I felt it. Odd that thousands of years of instinct really does let you know when something isn't right. GOOD ADVICE TO ALL. TRUST YOUR GUT INSTINCT. YOU'RE NOT PARANOID OR CRAZY. IT IS THERE TO PROTECT US. 

She said they stopped all communication initially and basically she missed him too much and was hurting. So she contacted him again. I know she thought she loved him at the time anyhow. Maybe she does love him still. I don't know what the truth is anymore. She may not know either at this point. she tells me she has no feelings for him, which cannot be truthful either. 

Her counselor basically urged her to tell me the truth put the cards on the table and then whatever comes her way, she will deal with as consequences of her actions and decisions. It's still not the full truth. Can't be. She said she is terrified of what I might do. File for divorce is what she means. Part of me thinks it's what she wants just can't handle being the one to file - then she's the bad guy v. me. 

Someone asked me what my dealbreaker point is. And that is one heck of a question, because if DDay 1 wasn't it and DDay 2 wasn't it and now finding out she was still sexually intimate with him and probably in love with him isn't it. *God what is my deal breaker??? *For her to continue with this for so long without regret or remorse after seeing what it did to me, then she isn't who I thought she was and has become far more self-centered, and selfish than I ever imagined.

During the 5 month period following Dday, I bought flowers, and cards, sent notes, and post its, gifts and poured out my soul as I mentioned in attempts to show her my love and all the while she continued to lie and betray me. I guess I felt guitly for my own actions and behavior leading up to the affair and it was my wake up call as how badly we both screwed it up. She showed me support during this time but it always felt like I had to beg for it. I played the needy hurting husband part really well. How can I ever trust this woman again?? Why do I still feel love for her? Why do I want to believe that she still loves me and wants to reconcile now? Funny thing is I'm not surprised by this revelation but thinking it and having it confirmed are two different things. Now again i am thinking how many more times were you with him. With any reveleation of new truth or details I find myself wanting more or wondering if that's really the end of it. I don't know if there's an end in sight. I guess that cycle could repeat for months if not years. What a mess. 

THE ROAD TO HELL ARE PAVED WITH GOOD INTENTIONS.


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## Summer4744

Road Scholar said:


> When I read through these threads, I just feeling like filing and being done and moving on. But I know it's not that simple. Life gets real complicated with D and plus I know the pain I woudl inflict on my own kids for the mistakes we made in the marriage and for her ridiculous AFFAIR. I truly believe I would leave if not for my kids and family. Too much work, too much pain and too many unknowns about whether any of it would work. Maybe that is the answer.
> 
> Last night I felt she was trying to turn the tables during a discussion we had. I left and said fine, let's file and get it over with. She asked me to come back in the room. We kept talking and we got past it. She found out about me sending her counselor a note asking her to reach out to my wife. I knew it might have been inappropriate but I did it anyhow. I told her about the false R and that our life may not have been as bad as she portrayed it. In short she was mad I sent it and felt it was somewhat retaliatory. Maybe part of it was self-serving, part of it was that I wanted her to get back into therapy because I feel she is very screwed up right now. After DD1 I said it feels like you have been brainwashed into what you are saying/thinking. I also sent her friend a note asking her for support and to give her a wake up call and she has been engaged in very destructive behavior which has put our marriage in jeapordy and help her to think about what's important in her life. She did not know about that initially, but I told her since she asked if I contacted anyone else. I don't want to become a liar and have always been very truthful - maybe to a fault. She was pissed at that also and felt it was self-serving and done out of revenge. I think she looked at it as me going public with a "very personal and private matter". In looking at it now, it may have been done for a couple reasons 1) out of concern and looking for help and positive support from friends/family 2) maybe a little lashing out or self serving to get my side of the story out there.
> 
> I definitely feel like I am in a position to be manipulated as long as I am starting to think about R which sucks because I want to be positive but also do not want to rug sweep this. I simply feel if she tries to put this on me and tries to share the blame of this I cannot and will not accept it and I will have no alternative. She has always had a hard time looking at herself unless ABSOLUTELY forced to. My threat of D did that initially and now feels like she is backing off that somewhat.


This happens all the damn time. Get out! She is buying time.

If you won the lottery and you had to split 50 million both ways, do you think she would still want to be with you? If the answer is yes than great. If the answer is no or maybe then move out. She may make a good amount of money, but being on her own might be scary. The longer you sit there and pander to her the more easily she will replace you.


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## Philat

_ She said she is terrified of what I might do. File for divorce is what she means._

She should know (by your actions) that what she is terrified of is what will happen if she *doesn't* come clean. Make this one of your non-negotiable conditions for R. "Honey, I love you and want our marriage to continue in health, but this can't happen unless I know the whole truth."

You can't forgive if you don't know what you are forgiving.


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## Philat

P.S. This is your deal-breaker.


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## Will_Kane

Road Scholar said:


> During the 5 month period following Dday, I bought flowers, and cards, sent notes, and post its, gifts and poured out my soul as I mentioned in attempts to show her my love and all the while she continued to lie and betray me. I guess I felt guitly for my own actions and behavior leading up to the affair and it was my wake up call as how badly we both screwed it up. She showed me support during this time but it always felt like I had to beg for it. I played the needy hurting husband part really well. How can I ever trust this woman again?? Why do I still feel love for her? Why do I want to believe that she still loves me and wants to reconcile now? Funny thing is I'm not surprised by this revelation but thinking it and having it confirmed are two different things. Now again i am thinking how many more times were you with him. With any reveleation of new truth or details I find myself wanting more or wondering if that's really the end of it. I don't know if there's an end in sight. I guess that cycle could repeat for months if not years. What a mess.


Don't make any hasty decisions.

Let this play out.

She still is saying she wants to reconcile, you still say you love her, and you have your children to think about. I am not advocating reconciling and I am not advocating divorce. I am suggesting you wait it out and see which way she goes.

You will NEVER get 100% of the truth, especially about her inner feelings. Expect more trickle truth. That is the natural progression - I don't know why, but I've seen it so many times, in fact, just about every single time. Maybe it's too much for them to admit to some of the monstrous things they've done, like letting you fawn all over her while giving you the cold shoulder and screwing her lover. Expect to learn that she was in contact with him constantly, that "no contact" the first time lasted all of 2-3 days, that while they didn't see each other every day or every week, that they ALWAYS had the next hookup planned. I would guess that they met up for sex every 2-4 weeks, so maybe 5-10 times while you were supposedly trying to reconcile. They did it many more times before you even found out the first time, so it's really just a drop in the bucket. She wasn't in it for the sex, she was in it for love.

The truly repentant ones, once out of the heat of the affair for a while, six months to a year later, look back and can't believe how badly they treated their betrayed spouse. Even they realize they turned into a different person, like some type of space alien.

When she is truly repentant, you will get an honest number, not that it matters all that much, and she will let go of trying to protect other man at all. She will not want you to destroy him, but she will accept with hardly any argument if you do. She will be detached from him at that point and realize that he is just someone she used to know, and will never see or talk to again.

*Actions* are the key. She has to write that timeline. That will open up more of the truth. AND *she has to leave that job*. Then you will start to be able to judge whether to reconcile or not. There will be more contact. Based on how she acted a few nights this week when you talked to her, I suspect she already has broken no contact at work. That is to be expected.

You can tell her that, after the timeline, you might like to try a polygraph to make sure she wasn't lying.


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## LongWalk

You need the time line to share with OMW. Can't hurt to kill the affair one more time.

Have you asked your wife how she envisions your future together? She lost all sexual attraction for you. Is that what the future of your marriage holds for you in her mind?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Will_Kane

It is imperative that you tell other man's wife and blow up his life. Until you do that, your wife still is open game to him.


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## just got it 55

RS The question you will have to eventually answer is:

Is the price of effort / pain you will need to endure worth the risk of failure?

Simply put Risk VS Reward

Only you can answer this 1000 internet strangers could possibly do it for you.

TRUST YOUR GUT 

It has not been wrong up to this point


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## Will_Kane

IF YOU CAN PULL THIS OFF: If you want to get her to trickle out the truth faster, let her know that you want to reconcile, and you will reconcile with her as long as she tells you the full truth (no matter how bad) and lets you verify it with a polygraph (in addition to leaving the job, ending all contact forever, and letting you verify it by giving you passwords/access to her computers/phones). She likely will open up much sooner that way. Otherwise, you are looking at a couple of months with you bugging her constantly before you get most of it. Once you have the truth, whether you try to reconcile or not is up to you.


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## Will_Kane

If she is getting comfort/concern from other man at work, then she will not need it so much from you at home. Even though she knows she should act a certain way, actually acting that way is a different story. Very few cheaters can pull it off. You can usually tell if they still are in contact by their attitude/demeanor toward you.

It is highly likely they will contact each other at work. That is a safe place for them. They do not have much willpower. Your wife is very worried still that other man is coping OK with what has happened, and if she doesn't hear from him, she wonders why (is he OK? did he really love me? (it's a terrible blow when they realize other man didn't really love them)).

When you blow it up with other man's wife, you move forward much more quickly. Other man throws your wife under the bus. It's also an excellent source of more truth about what went on.


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## seasalt

What if anything about her is different this time than the time five months ago? You should take control of the situation by filing for divorce now and let her know it will become a finality after you judge her actions to be insufficient to you and our children's needs.

You can no longer use the "once bitten" mantra. Too bad for her.

Seasalt


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## lordmayhem

I would post my Trickle Truth and Rugsweeping pics, but I'm not allowed to because *SOME* mods think its over the top. 

If you attempt R again, it will be a False R yet again. Why? Because she is not truly remorseful. Don't fall for crocodile tears. Crying does not equal remorse. Look at this table.










All your WW wants to do is rugsweep. If she was truly remorseful, she would literally do just about anything, and that includes taking whatever consequences (loss of job, friends, and embarassment from exposure) in order to show you she means it. Instead, your WW is the one getting defensive at even a little exposure.

Your False R will fail.


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## WyshIknew

lordmayhem said:


> I would post my Trickle Truth and Rugsweeping pics, but I'm not allowed to because *SOME* mods think its over the top.
> 
> If you attempt R again, it will be a False R yet again. Why? Because she is not truly remorseful. Don't fall for crocodile tears. Crying does not equal remorse. Look at this table.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All your WW wants to do is rugsweep. If she was truly remorseful, she would literally do just about anything, and that includes taking whatever consequences (loss of job, friends, and embarassment from exposure) in order to show you she means it. Instead, your WW is the one getting defensive at even a little exposure.
> 
> Your False R will fail.


In your experience do all these things have to happen immediately?

Once the wayward spouse finally realises how badly they have screwed up can they not tick the left side of the chart later on?


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## bryanp

For the past 5 months she only saw him twice and had sex with him once......Oh please. She would not have sex with you for 5 months but she only needed to have sex with him once during these 5 months to satisfy her sexual needs.......Oh Please.

Meanwhile during this time period you were busting your butt with cards and love gestures and she just tells you she is not feeling it? I am sorry but I really think she was getting off seeing you jump like a puppy dog for her attention and she rejecting your advances. Good lord man. Please have some pride in yourself.


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## illwill

I'm the one that asked what your dealbreaker is. And since you don't know. This is it. Do what you should have done the first time. Man up and file. You waited around long enough being passive. No disrespect but some on here will tell you to wait forever. Don't. I'm not saying end the marriage, but if you get your wife back but lose yourself, what have you gained? Women respect strong men, start being strong. If not now, when? I promise you will look back wishing you had been more courageous. She'll never say it but everytime you put up with this, she loses more respect for you. She knows most men would not put up with this crap.


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## weightlifter

I thinking the poly ultimatum is his best route.

Wife you need to come clean to me. You said sex once. This will be one of the questions.

You may change your answer at any point up to the door of the poly. Once inside your answers are locked.
Fail and we divorce.
Pass and I will consider reconciling.

Expect a parking lot confession which is your real goal.


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## tom67

Will_Kane said:


> It is imperative that you tell other man's wife and blow up his life. Until you do that, your wife still is open game to him.


If you have to fly there yourself do it! Whatever it takes.


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## harrybrown

She has had enough time to do the timeline. Get it to you now! She has treated you horribly. She has no respect for you. Respect yourself. You are in love with what you thought was your wife. She is not who you think she is. She lies and lies and cheats and cheats. 

Start making some boundaries and deadlines and file now. 

Does she see what the hell she is doing to you? Have you asked her how she could keep doing this to you? Tell her you are tired of being her second place. She ripped your heart out and tell her to fix it now. She did so many wonderful things for the OM. How about her husband, like the truth right now.


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## tom67

harrybrown said:


> She has had enough time to do the timeline. Get it to you now! She has treated you horribly. She has no respect for you. Respect yourself. You are in love with what you thought was your wife. She is not who you think she is. She lies and lies and cheats and cheats.
> 
> Start making some boundaries and deadlines and file now.
> 
> Does she see what the hell she is doing to you? Have you asked her how she could keep doing this to you? Tell her you are tired of being her second place. She ripped your heart out and tell her to fix it now. She did so many wonderful things for the OM. How about her husband, like the truth right now.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## Shaggy

Seriously, Monday nuke both of them at work,, as a senior exec he will get roasted for having an affair with a junior.

You've been played by her and played by him. He's laughing that you bought that he was in therapy and he feels that he is untouchable because you are afraid of her.

Way past time to show him you are willing to gamble it all to win,

Even if she quit, every time he is in town she's gonna be hooking up with her, because we both know the A isnt really over. She's just had to up her game and give you some pity sex.

Nuke him at work, show him you are not afraid of him,

Do not warn her you are doing it,


----------



## Thor

Road Scholar said:


> Someone asked me what my dealbreaker point is. And that is one heck of a question, because if DDay 1 wasn't it and DDay 2 wasn't it and now finding out she was still sexually intimate with him and probably in love with him isn't it. *God what is my deal breaker??? *For her to continue with this for so long without regret or remorse after seeing what it did to me, then she isn't who I thought she was and has become far more self-centered, and selfish than I ever imagined.
> 
> During the 5 month period following Dday, I bought flowers, and cards, sent notes, and post its, gifts and poured out my soul as I mentioned in attempts to show her my love and all the while she continued to lie and betray me. I guess I felt guitly for my own actions and behavior leading up to the affair and it was my wake up call as how badly we both screwed it up. She showed me support during this time but it always felt like I had to beg for it. I played the needy hurting husband part really well. How can I ever trust this woman again?? Why do I still feel love for her? Why do I want to believe that she still loves me and wants to reconcile now?


You are not unique. You are not the first one to have these conflicting thoughts and feelings about her.

One thing I have learned is that my wife is who she is, and her behaviors explain it very well. Unless she makes substantial changes, in the future she will still be the same person she is today. And thus, _those undesirable behaviors will repeat in the future_.

The unpleasant feelings she is experiencing today will fade, and then at some point in the future she will find herself in a similar situation and she will repeat her behavior.

Yes you love her, and yes she has many good qualities worthy of your love and admiration. Now she has shown you another side of her which you were not aware of. This is why you have conflicting feelings. 

Don't make the mistake of trying to be Nice to her. You have to apply tough love in order to get her to make real changes. Plus, tough love protects you in the event she does not make changes.


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## Thor

I just browsed some stuff about Mort Fertel. To me, the biggest red flag on his approach is that he is highly endorsed by therapists. The mainstream philosophy amongst marriage therapists seems to be one of blaming yourself for your spouse's affair. They seem to rugsweep the affair, and concentrate on just building good relationship skills going forward. The cheater never has to atone for their betrayal, and never has to deeply reflect on why they did it.

If this is what Mort is about, I think you were led down the wrong path. Especially because you seem to be a pretty Nice Guy. I admit to being a Nice Guy, and I know the hell it can unleash in a marriage.

Yes you made mistakes in your marriage. If you are a Nice Guy, you taught your wife to not respect you, all the while you thought you were being thoughtful of her needs. So if she has done something so horrible as have an affair, you must have failed as a husband somehow. Thus, according to many therapists, you are partly guilty for the affair!

Then the Nice Guy starts playing the game of balancing his screw ups with hers. Do your inadequacies as a husband outweigh her mistake of having an affair? Did your failures drive her to having an affair?

Here's where you are going off the tracks. You are connecting your errors with her bad choices. In reality, your mistakes are yours, and her mistakes are hers. You can work on making yourself a better man and a better husband as you work through this marital crisis. But your work is distinctly separate from her work. She has to earn her way back. You can't do it for her. I think you have tried over the past number of months, out of love, to take it on yourself.

You can see now how that approach failed you.


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## WyshIknew

Thor said:


> I just browsed some stuff about Mort Fertel. To me, the biggest red flag on his approach is that he is highly endorsed by therapists. The mainstream philosophy amongst marriage therapists seems to be one of blaming yourself for your spouse's affair. They seem to rugsweep the affair, and concentrate on just building good relationship skills going forward. The cheater never has to atone for their betrayal, and never has to deeply reflect on why they did it.
> 
> If this is what Mort is about, I think you were led down the wrong path. Especially because you seem to be a pretty Nice Guy. I admit to being a Nice Guy, and I know the hell it can unleash in a marriage.
> 
> Yes you made mistakes in your marriage. If you are a Nice Guy, you taught your wife to not respect you, all the while you thought you were being thoughtful of her needs. So if she has done something so horrible as have an affair, you must have failed as a husband somehow. Thus, according to many therapists, you are partly guilty for the affair!
> 
> Then the Nice Guy starts playing the game of balancing his screw ups with hers. Do your inadequacies as a husband outweigh her mistake of having an affair? Did your failures drive her to having an affair?
> 
> Here's where you are going off the tracks. You are connecting your errors with her bad choices. In reality, your mistakes are yours, and her mistakes are hers. You can work on making yourself a better man and a better husband as you work through this marital crisis. But your work is distinctly separate from her work. She has to earn her way back. You can't do it for her. I think you have tried over the past number of months, out of love, to take it on yourself.
> 
> You can see now how that approach failed you.


If I could like this a hundred times, I would.


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## Vulcan2013

WyshIknew said:


> If I could like this a hundred times, I would.


:iagree:


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## TDSC60

The nice guy, carpet bombing with love and attention never works.


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## workindad

OP, you will not nice her out this. You will only come off as weak and pathetic with that approach. Weak and pathetic is not a desirable trait.

Your time for strong and decisive action passed, but the good news is that it is never too late to correct that mistake.

You have been given some excellent advice here. I hope you execute it. If you do, then you may have an honest shot at true reconciliation. If you don't, you are doomed to the limbo hell you are living now. Is this the example of how an adult should live their life that you want to set for our kids? I doubt it.

I wish you well.

Good luck
WD


----------



## carmen ohio

Road Scholar said:


> . . . Someone asked me what my dealbreaker point is. And that is one heck of a question, because if DDay 1 wasn't it and DDay 2 wasn't it and now finding out she was still sexually intimate with him and probably in love with him isn't it. *God what is my deal breaker??? *For her to continue with this for so long without regret or remorse after seeing what it did to me, then she isn't who I thought she was and has become far more self-centered, and selfish than I ever imagined . . .


Dear Road Scholar,

This is probably the most important thing you have posted on your thread to date -- you admit that you don't know what is your deal breaker.

What this means is that you are a man with little self-respect and a man with little self-respect will not be respected by others, especially by his WW. You say you love her and want to save your marriage but, as long as your WW disrespects you, she will not love you and your marriage will not improve.

Whatever one might think of your WW's morals, her behavior is at least logical. She wanted to have an affair so she had it. She got caught, promised to stop in order to avoid your divorcing her and, perceiving that you were weak, renewed her affair. Now she has been caught again and, again sensing your weakness, is negotiating for terms that will allow her to remain married to you while leaving open the possibility of future infidelities.

Your behavior, on the other hand, is illogical. Your WW cheated on you and you agreed to reconcile with no consequences for her. She cheated again and your reaction is, in effect, to beg her to stay and to negotiate the terms of her staying rather than dictating them as any self-respecting BH would. 

I urge you to read NMMNG. You need to understand that your willingness to put with all the crap your WW has thrown and continues to throw at you means that you have very serious "nice guy" problems. Above all else, you need to identify, address and overcome these. Until you do, you have no hope of ever having a good marriage and a happy life.

Hoping you see the light and get help soon.


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## Road Scholar

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Road Scholar

I don't expect that by my few posts here anyone on this site will truly know me or my situation, although you may all have seen it a 1000 times. I have to believe each is slightly unique but maybe not all that different either. Regardless the advice on this site has been helpful and insightful. 

I admit not knowing my walk away point becuase I guess it's moving on me. Does anyone ever really establish a "walk away point" going into marriage or a particular situation? I mean, I think you think about how you might respond to a certain situation but you never really know how you will respond until you're in that situation. I don't know that I could establish one and stick to it. I think when the walk away point comes, I will know. If you had asked me what it was a year ago, I would have said if my wife cheated, I would be gone. Now that that has happened I find it difficult to just walk away from the life we have built together and our family (2 kids). Now that I have learned she has continued the affair, I still find it hard to walk away. Again, after DDay1, I would have said if she cheats again, I am gone. Well, here I am still clinging to my old life and what I thought it was. Part of me wants to believe she hasn't been herself or has been delusional or something. I mean clearly she knew what she was doing was wrong but wasn't in the right frame of mind to stop. And I know that sounds lame and like I am making excuses for her, which I'm not. BTW, I have a great deal of respect for myself and I am a strong man and come from a large, close knit family with ample support. I have a strong moral compass but I also realize the fraility of human nature and we are all capable of things even we cannot imagine until we do them. 

I am trying as hard as I can to do the right thing for me, my kids, and even my wife, even if that means I take one for the team for some time until she gets her head right. It would be easy to quit and walk away from this mess she created. I'm not sure what that would solve other than short lived revenge and maybe even have justice served. But then what?? A pile of sh*t for many many years to come for me and my kids. That may well be what lies ahead anyhow. I don't know yet. I guess my desire NOT to be divorced is greater than my desire to blow it all up justifiably and start over. I am still hoping for a successful reconciliation where we can both be happy. I don't know that it's possible yet and I don't want to let her off that easy either.

I'm not an arrogant person but I know I have much to offer and could find happiness again at some point. I am in good shape, successful, I am fun, I am active and as bad as this may sound I have never really had issues finding women that think I am a good looking guy. Yeah, I know that sounds pretty arrogant. Worst of (I guess) is that I am a Nice Guy. GUILTY. I always took pride in being a "nice guy" up until now I guess. I know that I handled this wrong from the start and probably should have taken more control of the situation but I didn't. I did not want to walk away from my family without a fight. I needed to keep my feelings in check and keep my temper under control so I tried to demonstrate that I still loved her. I am not some passive puppy dog. Yes I have a pretty big temper being Irish Catholic. So I'm good at guilt too. So I fought for the first 5 months and I'm still fighting. I'm clearly conflicted as far as what to do next. The Mort Fertel approach was not helpful to my marital situation even though it did help me deal with the situation. I probably would've been better off filing. I'm sure I would have felt better anyhow and it sounds like it would have given her the wakeup call 5 months earlier. 

Anyhow this still sucks because while I want to reconcile I still can't get over the last 5 months and yeah I'm sure she was banging him every other week at least while I played the puppy dog.

She is doing the resume tonight. Still no timeline but she said she will do it. I will give her a week and then I will file if I don't have it. I'm not going to ask for it again though. There, I set my first boundry.


----------



## illwill

Good for you. You set it. Now stick to it. Two things. A. Reconciliation is hard, but so is walking away from all that you have built. Which is why you have stayed. B. Being nice does not mean you must be weak. I'm nice, but don't tolerate disrespect. Understand the difference.


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## turnera

Did you tell her you're filing if she doesn't get the resume done?


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## Road Scholar

New job and the timeline of the affair was what I told her. I also mentioned polygraph and passwords to everything.


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## tom67

illwill said:


> Good for you. You set it. Now stick to it. Two things. A. Reconciliation is hard, but so is walking away from all that you have built. Which is why you have stayed. B. Being nice does not mean you must be weak. I'm nice, but don't tolerate disrespect. Understand the difference.


Right on point!
:iagree::iagree:


----------



## carmen ohio

Road Scholar said:


> I don't expect that by my few posts here anyone on this site will truly know me or my situation, although you may all have seen it a 1000 times. I have to believe each is slightly unique but maybe not all that different either. Regardless the advice on this site has been helpful and insightful.
> 
> I admit not knowing my walk away point becuase I guess it's moving on me. Does anyone ever really establish a "walk away point" going into marriage or a particular situation? I mean, I think you think about how you might respond to a certain situation but you never really know how you will respond until you're in that situation. I don't know that I could establish one and stick to it. I think when the walk away point comes, I will know. If you had asked me what it was a year ago, I would have said if my wife cheated, I would be gone. Now that that has happened I find it difficult to just walk away from the life we have built together and our family (2 kids). Now that I have learned she has continued the affair, I still find it hard to walk away. Again, after DDay1, I would have said if she cheats again, I am gone. Well, here I am still clinging to my old life and what I thought it was. Part of me wants to believe she hasn't been herself or has been delusional or something. I mean clearly she knew what she was doing was wrong but wasn't in the right frame of mind to stop. And I know that sounds lame and like I am making excuses for her, which I'm not. BTW, *I have a great deal of respect for myself and I am a strong man* and come from a large, close knit family with ample support. I have a strong moral compass but I also realize the fraility of human nature and we are all capable of things even we cannot imagine until we do them.
> 
> *I am trying as hard as I can to do the right thing for me, my kids, and even my wife, even if that means I take one for the team* for some time until she gets her head right. It would be easy to quit and walk away from this mess she created. I'm not sure what that would solve other than short lived revenge and maybe even have justice served. But then what?? A pile of sh*t for many many years to come for me and my kids. That may well be what lies ahead anyhow. I don't know yet. I guess my desire NOT to be divorced is greater than my desire to blow it all up justifiably and start over. I am still hoping for a successful reconciliation where we can both be happy. I don't know that it's possible yet and I don't want to let her off that easy either.
> 
> I'm not an arrogant person but I know I have much to offer and could find happiness again at some point. I am in good shape, successful, I am fun, I am active and as bad as this may sound I have never really had issues finding women that think I am a good looking guy. Yeah, I know that sounds pretty arrogant. Worst of (I guess) is that I am a Nice Guy. GUILTY. I always took pride in being a "nice guy" up until now I guess. I know that I handled this wrong from the start and probably should have taken more control of the situation but I didn't. I did not want to walk away from my family without a fight. I needed to keep my feelings in check and keep my temper under control so I tried to demonstrate that I still loved her. I am not some passive puppy dog. Yes I have a pretty big temper being Irish Catholic. So I'm good at guilt too. So I fought for the first 5 months and I'm still fighting. I'm clearly conflicted as far as what to do next. The Mort Fertel approach was not helpful to my marital situation even though it did help me deal with the situation. I probably would've been better off filing. I'm sure I would have felt better anyhow and it sounds like it would have given her the wakeup call 5 months earlier.
> 
> *Anyhow this still sucks because while I want to reconcile I still can't get over the last 5 months and yeah I'm sure she was banging him every other week at least while I played the puppy dog.*
> 
> She is doing the resume tonight. Still no timeline but she said she will do it. I will give her a week and then I will file if I don't have it. I'm not going to ask for it again though. There, I set my first boundry.



Dear Road Scholar,

You claim to have self-respect and to be strong but some of your other statements (bolded above) belie your claim.

A man with self-respect does not "take one for the team" or act like a "puppy dog."

Ask yourself the following question: if one of your children were in the situation you find yourself in, would you advise him or her to do what you are doing? If you can't answer the question with a confident "yes," then you know that you are going about this wrongly.

Please, read NMMNG. It will open your eyes to who you really are. Until you see yourself as others see you, and especially how your WW sees you, you will continue to struggle. Once your eyes are open, the way forward will become much clearer.

Good luck.


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## Thor

Road, you're right we don't know if our limit is real until she blasts past it. Then we reassess and double-think ourselves, perhaps wondering if she _really_ violated the boundary or just accidentally brushed close against it. Or we make excuses for her. The woman we dated and married would never have done this, so she must be in some kind of temporary mental state to do this.

Three suggestions.

1) Stop thinking in terms of wanting to Reconcile. Reconciliation is a process not a result. I think you are better off sitting down and writing freeform, perhaps several times over several days, what kind of marriage and life you want. Keep in mind you can never have what you used to have. It will forever be different whether you stay or leave. Write out how it feels, what it looks like, and what you do in this relationship you would like to have.

2) Think of your relationship separate from other variables. This is tough! Your marriage is it's own entity. Your finances are another entity, your career another, your kids yet another, your home is another one, etc. It is too easy to jumble it all together and get stalled out. Imagine you stay with her because she is earning $1million per year. Cool, but if you have a horrible marriage the money isn't going to make it good! You'll be driving a nice car but you'll still be unhappy. Judge your marriage by itself, either good enough or not good enough.

3) Investors have a tool to evaluate their current holdings to decide if they should keep or sell a particular stock. They ask, "would I buy this stock today at the current price, given all I know about it?". Try the same with your wife. Given all you know, would you marry her today? If you went on a first date with her today and learned everything, would you go on a second date?


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## Wazza

carmen ohio said:


> Dear Road Scholar,
> 
> You claim to have self-respect and to be strong but some of your other statements (bolded above) belie your claim.
> 
> A man with self-respect does not "take one for the team" or act like a "puppy dog."
> 
> Ask yourself the following question: if one of your children were in the situation you find yourself in, would you advise him or her to do what you are doing? If you can't answer the question with a confident "yes," then you know that you are going about this wrongly.
> 
> Please, read NMMNG. It will open your eyes to who you really are. Until you see yourself as others see you, and especially how your WW sees you, you will continue to struggle. Once your eyes are open, the way forward will become much clearer.
> 
> Good luck.


In staying in my marriage after wife's affair for the sake of my kids, I guess I took one for the team. It actually worked out really well in the long term, but there were some very sad years in there. It is a big decision to make.

And I know others who have had the same success. And others who have not. I don't know how to pick when it will work out.

I am sure some people "take one for the team" because they lack the self esteem to do otherwise, but in other cases you decide that something else is more important than your desire to end the marriage. To me, self respect is having a clear head as to what you are doing and why, then acting on it.

That said, you have to accept RS, that you CANNOT hold your marriage together alone. Unless your wife starts trying, seriously trying, nothing you do will be enough. She hasn't done her resume yet. How long does it take? 

Can I suggest you make a decision. You are going to stay regardless of what she does, or you will walk away if things don't work out. And if walking away is an option, make some moves in that direction now, just to show you are serious and light a fire under her.

And you should start to build a support system for the coming years. You are going to need it.


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## cledus_snow

i think the majority of the posters want to see you come through this with your marriage intact and on the road to recovery. that being said, much of the advice you're getting is based with that in mind.

you have to realize that your wife's infidelity has dealt a heavy blow to your relationship- and as you've admitted yourself, it can't be rugswept. that means people must be held accountable for said actions. 

you keep thinking what is being suggested is somewhat vengeful and/or vindictive; when in reality, these are the basic steps to save your marriage. you just have to follow through..... you're wife should follow suit.


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## Shaggy

Road which would you sacrifice first :

1. Your family

2. Your wife's job & income.

If you had to pick one, which would you save and which you kill?

Right now you are faced with just such a choice.

Played well, the OM will be fired and your wife will be given a package to leave and not sue and not tell others.


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## Will_Kane

Road Scholar said:


> I don't expect that by my few posts here anyone on this site will truly know me or my situation, although you may all have seen it a 1000 times. I have to believe each is slightly unique but maybe not all that different either.


Although we may have slightly or even drastically different opinions about what you should do, we all know your situation better than you do.

We have had months and even years of unwanted "training" dealing with your situation, or one very slightly different from it. You are a rookie.

Your situation in particular is not at all unique. There are several plot lines these affairs and aftermaths may follow, not many, just a few, and your situation is following one of those plot lines to a T.

These cheaters are nothing, if not predictable.

Your wife is dragging her feet. She was NOT a snot-blowing hysterical crying mess when you confronted her - strike one. She is protecting the other man and verbally defends him to you - strike two. She has not done ONE SINGLE THING you've asked her to do. At least, nothing of import in regards to ENDING THE AFFAIR. Talk is cheap. Where are the actions?

As long as she goes in to work at that company, the affair lives. By now, the temptation has become too great and she has contacted him. The longer she drags her feet on leaving that job, the more likely they will decide they need to talk for "closure." Closure consists of them telling each other how they love each other, will never forget each other, and maybe one day will meet again after their kids are grown. If you let this go on much longer, they will decide that in order for them to have true "closure," they will have to meet up one last time.

Don't keep silent about the timeline or the resume. Remind her every morning and every night that you still are waiting for it. Do it calmly and tell her it has taken too long already, that if she was being honest on it, she should be able to knock it out in three or four hours. Every morning and every night you talk to her, remind her of your deadline. Tell her if you don't have it by next Sunday night, you will be filing for divorce Monday morning. Then, if she doesn't produce it, do it.

I recommend talking little about the affair, not being emotional, needy, depressed, or harpy.

You say you mentioned the polygraph, but not what her reaction was.

I believe you when you describe yourself as generally strong and confident, but I know your weak spot is your kids, and it is a HUGE weak spot - and don't think that wifey doesn't know that as well. Your wife cares about the kids, too, but not as much as you. Judging from her having the affair, being caught, then resuming the affair, breaking up the kids stable environment is much less important to her than to you. Even the dragging of the feet she's doing now, almost pushing you to the divorce.

There is an element of rebellion here. Like she has become your teenage daughter and you are telling her she can't see her boyfriend, who you disapprove of, anymore.

I posted a day or two ago that all this type of stuff is to be expected and that you should not make any hasty decisions, and that still is the correct course. Your wife still says she wants to reconcile, she has said she will do what you need - write the timeline and leave the job. But she is starting to really show signs of dragging her feet. Give her a deadline and stick to it. Remind her of it once every morning and once every night. Then, stick to it.

What is your day-to-day relationship like with her now? Are you getting along, is she angry at you, annoyed at you, deferential to you, making an extra effort to be nice to you? Are you still sleeping in the same bed? Still having sex?

Opinions may differ, but I think that if you want to, you should "reclaim" your territory (and then some).


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## Will_Kane

The two most important things still remain:

1. Blow up the affair with the other man's wife. Nuke his life. Make him regret the day he started up with your wife. Let him throw her under the bus.

2. She has to quit the job. This can't be emphasized enough. A six-month job search is going to kill your marriage, even if she stops contact, which she won't.


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## MEM2020

Road,
There is no question you are in a terribly difficult situation and that certainly the past 5 months have been a 100 percent betrayal. 

While I believe your demand for a timeline is fair, and am certain that you now must follow through with it, I want to offer a suggestion that will help you minimize the amount of trickle truth (there will be some), while teaching her to respect your boundaries.

The suggestion is to convey this message to her, ideally in writing.

Wife,
In order for me to begin healing and rebuilding trust in you, I need to know that going forward you will be honest with me, even when you fear the consequences of doing so. Right now you are wrestling with a few very difficult questions:
1. How much can I actually tell him without pushing him over the edge into the abyss of 'irreconcilable betrayal'.
2. What is the minimum amount of 'trickle truth' I can offer while still seeming credible? 
3. What other information does he have or might he soon unearth independently? 

Let me try and help you decide whether you want to continue to try to 'trickle truth' me. 

1. I know that for the last 5 months you have brought the other man into OUR bed every night. He has slept between us. And by doing that you harmed our family, and showed me not just a 'lack of respect', but actual contempt. This is not open to debate, it is a fact. 
2. I am giving you conditional amnesty for one week. The conditions are simple: Take responsibility for your selfish choices by providing me an honest account of the schedule of your physical affair with him during that time. I am not going to demand the specifics of your sexual activities. 

I am going to be angry when you tell me. I know it was frequent. And I am sure the most recent encounter was not very long ago. So you don't get amnesty from my anger. 

However, if you do what I ask, which is to go through your calendar/emails/chats/whatever for the last five months, and tell me when you met to have sex, I will commit to a genuine effort at reconciliation. 

If you really want to give us a fair shot at 'marriage 2.0', you need to accept the foundation will be built on: respect, trust and communication. 

You cannot truly 'feel' respect for me, if you continue to lie and/or hide things from me. At some level you will think of me as 'the guy who believes whatever I tell him'. Or the 'guy who lets me refuse to answer fair questions'. That won't work. 

And frankly I won't feel respect for you and will actively distrust you if, despite be given amnesty, you continue to lie or try to stonewall me. 









Road Scholar said:


> I don't expect that by my few posts here anyone on this site will truly know me or my situation, although you may all have seen it a 1000 times. I have to believe each is slightly unique but maybe not all that different either. Regardless the advice on this site has been helpful and insightful.
> 
> I admit not knowing my walk away point becuase I guess it's moving on me. Does anyone ever really establish a "walk away point" going into marriage or a particular situation? I mean, I think you think about how you might respond to a certain situation but you never really know how you will respond until you're in that situation. I don't know that I could establish one and stick to it. I think when the walk away point comes, I will know. If you had asked me what it was a year ago, I would have said if my wife cheated, I would be gone. Now that that has happened I find it difficult to just walk away from the life we have built together and our family (2 kids). Now that I have learned she has continued the affair, I still find it hard to walk away. Again, after DDay1, I would have said if she cheats again, I am gone. Well, here I am still clinging to my old life and what I thought it was. Part of me wants to believe she hasn't been herself or has been delusional or something. I mean clearly she knew what she was doing was wrong but wasn't in the right frame of mind to stop. And I know that sounds lame and like I am making excuses for her, which I'm not. BTW, I have a great deal of respect for myself and I am a strong man and come from a large, close knit family with ample support. I have a strong moral compass but I also realize the fraility of human nature and we are all capable of things even we cannot imagine until we do them.
> 
> I am trying as hard as I can to do the right thing for me, my kids, and even my wife, even if that means I take one for the team for some time until she gets her head right. It would be easy to quit and walk away from this mess she created. I'm not sure what that would solve other than short lived revenge and maybe even have justice served. But then what?? A pile of sh*t for many many years to come for me and my kids. That may well be what lies ahead anyhow. I don't know yet. I guess my desire NOT to be divorced is greater than my desire to blow it all up justifiably and start over. I am still hoping for a successful reconciliation where we can both be happy. I don't know that it's possible yet and I don't want to let her off that easy either.
> 
> I'm not an arrogant person but I know I have much to offer and could find happiness again at some point. I am in good shape, successful, I am fun, I am active and as bad as this may sound I have never really had issues finding women that think I am a good looking guy. Yeah, I know that sounds pretty arrogant. Worst of (I guess) is that I am a Nice Guy. GUILTY. I always took pride in being a "nice guy" up until now I guess. I know that I handled this wrong from the start and probably should have taken more control of the situation but I didn't. I did not want to walk away from my family without a fight. I needed to keep my feelings in check and keep my temper under control so I tried to demonstrate that I still loved her. I am not some passive puppy dog. Yes I have a pretty big temper being Irish Catholic. So I'm good at guilt too. So I fought for the first 5 months and I'm still fighting. I'm clearly conflicted as far as what to do next. The Mort Fertel approach was not helpful to my marital situation even though it did help me deal with the situation. I probably would've been better off filing. I'm sure I would have felt better anyhow and it sounds like it would have given her the wakeup call 5 months earlier.
> 
> Anyhow this still sucks because while I want to reconcile I still can't get over the last 5 months and yeah I'm sure she was banging him every other week at least while I played the puppy dog.
> 
> She is doing the resume tonight. Still no timeline but she said she will do it. I will give her a week and then I will file if I don't have it. I'm not going to ask for it again though. There, I set my first boundry.


----------



## Wolfman1968

RS:

I think it is mistake if you think your situation is unique. You say you have read other threads. Then, doesn't it strike you that the plot is ALWAYS THE SAME? No one is unique, no matter how much they want to think so.

There has been some great advice on this thread. (And I agree with Shaggy so much, he might as well have 2 votes for every post he "likes"). LISTEN to it. Others have been through this.

As a side note, I am shocked that, with the predictability of how all these situations turn out, most so-call marriage counselors seem incapable of giving sound advice. I can't believe any of their advice or teachings are "evidence-based". Do they not subject any of this discipline to any outcomes studies?

So don't get suckered by any Marriage Counselor pablum.


----------



## JCD

Dyokemm said:


> RoadScholar,
> 
> I still really think you HAVE to blow this guy up at work and with his BW.
> 
> You have to get him the h**l away from your WW and keep him from sniffing around again.
> 
> If he does not suffer any consequences, he will eventually come around again to interfere in your life.
> 
> Send him running for the hills, scrambling to save his own a**.
> 
> Then he will be much too busy to ever think about f'ing with your family's life again.


I agree with this 100%.

HOWEVER...the rules of escalation apply. If you destroy his whole world, what will he do in retaliation. Right now, Road Scholar is the rat backed in the corner and he's (finally) fighting.

What happens if you back this POS into the corner? Yes, it satisfies our mental bump for justice. I personally would be content with a signed affidavit from your wife with a lawyer about the affair which you can use with HR and revealing to the OMs wife.

If you take EVERYTHING away from him, what's to stop him from using his money to return the favor?

Just saying...

That being said, her job needs to be history.


----------



## JCD

Road Scholar said:


> Back from the weekend which went as well as could be expected given circumstances and recent discovery that she has still been in contact with OM




I think this was a bad idea, but too late now. You should have gone alone. 



> She keeps saying not to focus on the past, to focus on what we want moving forward, doesn't understand how it can help, she can't change the past, etc, etc. etc. She also says she realizes this is somewhat self-serving too. I really don't want to focus on the details either but is it absolutely critical I know everything? I don't want to be haunted by every little detail but I also don't want lingering questions years from now. What about this? What about that? Again is this more of a test for her to come clean and bring everything into the light of day?? How important is it for me to understand all aspects of the affair before moving forward? I don't want to be back here in 2 or 3 years or ever for that matter and I am willing to lose the marriage reluctantly at this point so want to do what is necessary now to be successful in long term R if that is to happen. Is part of it for her to show me what she is willing to do to save our marriage by telling all and complying with every one of my requests??


Okay...it is true, she can't change the past. And if the BS keeps throwing this crap in the WS face, I generally say to stop it.

That is not where you are right now.

The NTSB (National Transportation Safety Board) examines EVERY accident it can: rail, auto, airplane etc. They want to know WHY that airplane just took a nose dive into the ocean. Was it the three fifths of vodka the pilot had? Was it an error in the control programming? Etc.

You have no idea HOW this happened, WHY it happened, and most importantly HOW TO PREVENT IT FROM HAPPENING AGAIN.

Ignore the people who say it's 'just because she's selfish'. That is lazy thinking. That is not self reflective thinking. How can a woman trust you with unpleasant truths if she isn't sure you won't haul off and pop her one? How likely would YOU be honest to someone like that? And this goes beyond just the infidelity. That will mar the whole marriage.

So you need to get that together and foster an atmosphere where she feels that she can be open and honest without losing...well...everything and a few teeth as well. IF you want to R.



> She has a completely different attitude about it I can tell you that and it does look to me like remorse right now, but I have been fooled before. Or, is it combined, saddness the affair may truly be over now and fear of losing family too and being the lying cheating spouse that caused it all?? Who can be sure the fog has really lifted and she is not doing it to protect him still??


It will take her at least 5 months to emotionally disconnect from the other person. Probably more like a year. That doesn't mean she won't...but it will take some time. Trust me on this. That is the timeline you are looking at. And I don't know that I would expect the sex to stay at that fevered pitch.



> I told her she needs to go back to individual counseling since she stopped some time ago. I also let her know I mailed a letter to his wife and don't believe that she knows - *although she just might. She was shocked at how much information I had on this guy and said that she thought I was trying to get revenge and what would I gain by ruining his life. She said it's not who you are.*



Proper Response: "This _wasn't_ who I was. This is what you forced me to become. I seem to be the only person trying to defend this marriage, while YOU are defending HIS marriage. Think very hard about what message you are sending me here..."

Yes, she is defending this guy, but she is also not wanting to get into a possible life altering deathmatch and doesn't want you to change from the man she used to love. But she's got it wrong and needs to change her attitude.



> Next, I am going to have her redo the NC letter and also the give me a timeline of events, places and other details in addition to scheduling the counseling. She has obviously been lying to her counselor and our MC for 5 months as well as everyone else.
> 
> I told her I'm not sure she knows what the truth is right now anymore. Fact is I'm not sure I know what the truth is either with where she is truly at. Time I guess will tell. In the meantime, I remain guarded...


Guarded is good. Because, while I took a swipe at those who preach 'it's all selfishness', it MIGHT be all selfishness...but you need to KNOW that about her character. Right now, the house just burned down..and you have no idea why, but you're willing to buy a new house without maybe addressing that the POS committed arson, that there was faulty wiring you never got around to fixing, or that she smokes in bed.

You need to know that before you choose to R. But I generally favor R. if it is warranted.


----------



## illwill

Does the op have a history of popping her in the mouth? Ridiculous reason to lie.


----------



## MEM2020

JCD,
I agree with much of this post. I suggested conditional amnesty because Road scholar does need to create an environment where it is far safer to tell the whole truth, than the barest trickle truth. 

I think he ought to add that bit you mention to the amnesty. 

Without trying to blame shift, she should honestly describe the sin factors that weakened the marriage and made it vulnerable to the affair. 

That said, he needs to overlay his value system and self assessment over what he hears. For example if she says he wasn't spending much quality time with her, and he knows that isn't true, he can ask for clarity. Maybe she means something more specific. Maybe she is terrified of telling him: when it got to the point where you wouldn't stand up to me when I was being selfish or ****y I started to lose respect and desire. 




JCD said:


> I think this was a bad idea, but too late now. You should have gone alone.
> 
> 
> 
> Okay...it is true, she can't change the past. And if the BS keeps throwing this crap in the WS face, I generally say to stop it.
> 
> That is not where you are right now.
> 
> The NTSB (National Transportation Safety Board) examines EVERY accident it can: rail, auto, airplane etc. They want to know WHY that airplane just took a nose dive into the ocean. Was it the three fifths of vodka the pilot had? Was it an error in the control programming? Etc.
> 
> You have no idea HOW this happened, WHY it happened, and most importantly HOW TO PREVENT IT FROM HAPPENING AGAIN.
> 
> Ignore the people who say it's 'just because she's selfish'. That is lazy thinking. That is not self reflective thinking. How can a woman trust you with unpleasant truths if she isn't sure you won't haul off and pop her one? How likely would YOU be honest to someone like that? And this goes beyond just the infidelity. That will mar the whole marriage.
> 
> So you need to get that together and foster an atmosphere where she feels that she can be open and honest without losing...well...everything and a few teeth as well. IF you want to R.
> 
> 
> 
> It will take her at least 5 months to emotionally disconnect from the other person. Probably more like a year. That doesn't mean she won't...but it will take some time. Trust me on this. That is the timeline you are looking at. And I don't know that I would expect the sex to stay at that fevered pitch.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Proper Response: "This _wasn't_ who I was. This is what you forced me to become. I seem to be the only person trying to defend this marriage, while YOU are defending HIS marriage. Think very hard about what message you are sending me here..."
> 
> Yes, she is defending this guy, but she is also not wanting to get into a possible life altering deathmatch and doesn't want you to change from the man she used to love. But she's got it wrong and needs to change her attitude.
> 
> 
> 
> Guarded is good. Because, while I took a swipe at those who preach 'it's all selfishness', it MIGHT be all selfishness...but you need to KNOW that about her character. Right now, the house just burned down..and you have no idea why, but you're willing to buy a new house without maybe addressing that the POS committed arson, that there was faulty wiring you never got around to fixing, or that she smokes in bed.
> 
> You need to know that before you choose to R. But I generally favor R. if it is warranted.


----------



## Wazza

How do you create safety in such an environment? I can't see it. She is not done with the marriage and she knows the truth may be a dealbreaker. 

Thing is, Road might already have 99% of the truth or only 1%. And not knowing is one thing that eats you up.

I would gather clues from as many different sources as I could, and use it to check up on what she says.


----------



## illwill

Exactly.


----------



## warlock07

I think you can still reconcile, but i think the way you are going about it will only prolong the whole mess and pain. Most BS take time to get some clarity on the situation. You haven't reached that point yet. 

There are 2 issues here. 1) Saving your family and 2) Being happy in a married relationship with your wife. These 2 are equally important


----------



## JCD

Road Scholar said:


> ALSO, many have said exposing the A to everyone is a MUST. Is it really? I mean, I don't want to humiliate her and air our dirty laundry unneccessarily or create any feelings that I betrayed her by doing so if her mind is at R. I also don't necessarily want the world to know if we are successful at R. I know this is sorta backwards based on what she has done to me, but of the two R's - Revenge or Reconciliation I guess i choose the latter first and foremost. And I also know that she has NOT been thinking with a clear head. If it is helpful for the reconciliation - or a must as some have said - I'm curious as to why? Or can R accomplished without exposing to everyone and their mother?
> 
> I guess what I don't want to have happen is this becomes such a negative toxic environment that she (nor I) cannot deal with it and bails because it is such a bad place to be (regardless how we got here). So it feels like a fine line between making her earn it and showing positive signs, hope and/or positive movement to be able to (at some point) move past this.


There is a middle path and part of it is that deposition I laid out. Essentially she needs to lay out the affair, that she went into it willingly, what happened and who was involved.

You might also ask her to write a letter to her parents to admit the affair and explain what happened. Don't let her get out of this. IF she is close to her parents, this will be particularly wracking.

When she is finished, you simply burn the letter in front of her. Holding it over her head is R based on blackmail. However, having the emotions of guilt and personal failure and the thought of admitting it, while it seems sadistic, might very well make her VERY thoughtful about how she would explain herself if this came out.

The deposition you do hold on to...because you might very well have to flambé this POS guy if you don't get some serious satisfaction.

BTW, since you are threatening his very being, be a bit more mindful of your surroundings and who is around. He might try anything from a PI to more nefarious things if he's one of these Alpha pr*cks who feels he is allowed anything. I would even suggest a voice activated recorder on yourself both for her and for any other confrontations which happen.


----------



## LongWalk

I think RoadScholar is coming to the conclusion that the advice he is getting is good. The soft approach is not working well. The longer the rot drags out, the greater the poison.

RS, your wife wants you to lay down the law because it will define the choices open to her. Abandon ship and go for a new family with the POSOM or repair her marriage.

As long as she gets away with cake eating she feels sort of good, but she knows the emotional truth. Allowing the OM to have her without commitment for a long time weakens her change at a LTR with him. Why should he commit himself to your kids?

Every stroke of his body into your wife is erasing your wife's respect for you. You need to halt it.

If she has to have the pleasure, she must define the costs for all. For OM, you and herself. When you put the pressure on her she may bail, but even if she does quit your marriage, if he has sex with while you are separated, it will at least not be a dirty secret. That will change their relationship. 

The chances of that new relationship failing are great. Will you want her back then? She needs to think about this. And she will if she is not out of her mind. If she is out of her mind, you need to cut her loose in any case.


----------



## JCD

illwill said:


> Does the op have a history of popping her in the mouth? Ridiculous reason to lie.


He admitted to being physical with her three times, enough that it 'registered' with him that he wasn't just wrong, but WAY wrong...though he clarified that he is not a wife beater.

Well...here's the thing...once things get physical ONCE, she has no idea if things will get physical AGAIN. It's sort of like infidelity. And unfortunately, everyone has heard of the fact that these things just escalate. It starts with a push...and then a slap...and then...

She has three instances to look at. I hope that he's gotten over this issue. It's a hard one to forget. But it's pretty big and is a rather large barrier to communication. How does she admit in a timeline that she was screwing this guy on (for example) his anniversary without a little voice saying 'wow...are you REALLY going to tell him that? What is he going to do to you if you tell him THAT?'

I would suggest anyone who thinks this is not a big deal take a flight to Vegas, and go to Mike Tyson's house in a private room and tell him exactly what you think of his morality, character and that stupid tattoo he put on his face.

The OP is not Mike Tyson, but I think you get the idea.

Amnesty is exactly the word that should be offered here. Remember that friend you 'outed' her to? Here is my suggestion. She draws up the timeline and you go over it together while that friend is in another room or in a car in the driveway, the backyard with the kids, whatever. That way, things won't get out of hand.

Doing this in front of a counselor is also a good option.

Now, I could be wrong. It might be 100% she is still in love with him, or she doesn't want to hurt her hubby anymore...or she knows she crossed some serious lines EVEN INSIDE OF INFIDELITY.

But humans are rather complex creatures. When she upset you in the past, you hurt her. She now has a lot of upsetting material to lay on you. I think that is part, not all, but PART of what is driving her hesitation.

And Road Scholar...are you deliberately being dim and passive about letting the OMs wife know? REALLY?

Here, let me solve the riddle for you. You GET IN YOUR CAR...you DRIVE TO HER HOUSE...you SEE HER...you HAND HER AN ENVELOPE without a word. Then you go out for pizza and beer. Or a PI. Or a process server.

Was that so bloody hard? You are dragging your feet on this. I don't care if he's out of state. Your marriage isn't worth a road trip?


----------



## illwill

If she was that afraid of him, why would she start and than continue the affair? Please don't say the fog. Her hesitation is likely because she loves the om. If she had ended it but then refused to commit that would be different. Seems to me she's hedging her bets.


----------



## Chaparral

The point of exposing the om is to make him end the relationship. To make him work to save his family. To make him turn on your wife. No matter how he has played your wife, all he was in it for was the sex. At least put him on cheaterville.com and send him the link. Let him scramble for his life and give him something to do besides messing with your family.

Show him you are not the little man he thinks you are,.take what belongs to you back from him.

Show your wife what he really is, take the shine off him so she can see the ugly cheater he is.


----------



## WyshIknew

Chaparral said:


> The point of exposing the om is to make him end the relationship. To make him work to save his family. To make him turn on your wife. No matter how he has played your wife, all he was in it for was the sex. At least put him on cheaterville.com and send him the link. Let him scramble for his life and give him something to do besides messing with your family.
> 
> Show him you are not the little man he thinks you are,.take what belongs to you back from him.
> 
> Show your wife what he really is, take the shine off him so she can see the ugly cheater he is.


Yet another of those posts I wish I could like a hundred times.


----------



## turnera

You say you're a strong man, yet you're willing to just sit there and wait for your wife to come home from banging her OM. That is not strength; it's a doormat. A man who's too scared to lose his wife to do anything. Which then ENSURES he loses his wife.


----------



## seasalt

On May first you found out she made you her chump. Now you are making yourself a chump if there is no consequence to her continuing actions. It's just my opinion that the lowest of the low is not the long term cheater or the serial cheater, but the cheater who asks for or is given forgiveness that craps on it.

The title of this thread is no sex for five months and now you have found out that you were the only one without sex. You couldn't trust her on May second, how can you tell yourself that you could trust her now? Unless the idea of your leaving her is solidly planted in her mind and that has real negative consequences that are visible in her responses you are never going to save a life with her worth having.

Good luck I guess,

Seasalt


----------



## Kallan Pavithran

warlock07 said:


> I think you can still reconcile, but i think the way you are going about it will only prolong the whole mess and pain. Most BS take time to get some clarity on the situation. You haven't reached that point yet.
> 
> There are 2 issues here. 1) Saving your family and 2) Being happy in a married relationship with your wife. These 2 are equally important



Saving his family is an easy thing, just forgive her and move on. Stop asking questions to her and beleive what she said is complete truth. Adrress all her complaints about you which lead her to cheat and become a good man to her satisfaction.

Being happy in married relationship, It will happen when you learn to forget her cheating and move on as if nothing happened.

But I wont advice this to any one, by doing above you are prolonging your misery for rest of your life and end up here again after five or ten yrs later.

I know you are a nice guy, almost all of us were like that only. I know you are proud to be a nice guy but there are certain situation where we should keep our niceness at shelf and act like a real alpha man. This is one of the situation, so stop playing nice, its time to be tough.

You asked her for time line do you have it NO, you asked for a polygraph did she done it NO. She will only do what she is comfortable with. either you can accept it or you can tell her to fuuuuuk off.


----------



## Vulcan2013

RS, have you read MMSLP? Would really help you understand what is going on and how to approach.


----------



## Road Scholar

Will_Kane said:


> Although we may have slightly or even drastically different opinions about what you should do, we all know your situation better than you do.
> 
> We have had months and even years of unwanted "training" dealing with your situation, or one very slightly different from it. You are a rookie.
> 
> Your situation in particular is not at all unique. There are several plot lines these affairs and aftermaths may follow, not many, just a few, and your situation is following one of those plot lines to a T.
> 
> These cheaters are nothing, if not predictable.
> 
> Your wife is dragging her feet. She was NOT a snot-blowing hysterical crying mess when you confronted her - strike one. She is protecting the other man and verbally defends him to you - strike two. She has not done ONE SINGLE THING you've asked her to do. At least, nothing of import in regards to ENDING THE AFFAIR. Talk is cheap. Where are the actions?
> 
> As long as she goes in to work at that company, the affair lives. By now, the temptation has become too great and she has contacted him. The longer she drags her feet on leaving that job, the more likely they will decide they need to talk for "closure." Closure consists of them telling each other how they love each other, will never forget each other, and maybe one day will meet again after their kids are grown. If you let this go on much longer, they will decide that in order for them to have true "closure," they will have to meet up one last time.
> 
> Don't keep silent about the timeline or the resume. Remind her every morning and every night that you still are waiting for it. Do it calmly and tell her it has taken too long already, that if she was being honest on it, she should be able to knock it out in three or four hours. Every morning and every night you talk to her, remind her of your deadline. Tell her if you don't have it by next Sunday night, you will be filing for divorce Monday morning. Then, if she doesn't produce it, do it.
> 
> I recommend talking little about the affair, not being emotional, needy, depressed, or harpy.
> 
> You say you mentioned the polygraph, but not what her reaction was.
> 
> I believe you when you describe yourself as generally strong and confident, but I know your weak spot is your kids, and it is a HUGE weak spot - and don't think that wifey doesn't know that as well. Your wife cares about the kids, too, but not as much as you. Judging from her having the affair, being caught, then resuming the affair, breaking up the kids stable environment is much less important to her than to you. Even the dragging of the feet she's doing now, almost pushing you to the divorce.
> 
> There is an element of rebellion here. Like she has become your teenage daughter and you are telling her she can't see her boyfriend, who you disapprove of, anymore.
> 
> I posted a day or two ago that all this type of stuff is to be expected and that you should not make any hasty decisions, and that still is the correct course. Your wife still says she wants to reconcile, she has said she will do what you need - write the timeline and leave the job. But she is starting to really show signs of dragging her feet. Give her a deadline and stick to it. Remind her of it once every morning and once every night. Then, stick to it.
> 
> What is your day-to-day relationship like with her now? Are you getting along, is she angry at you, annoyed at you, deferential to you, making an extra effort to be nice to you? Are you still sleeping in the same bed? Still having sex?
> 
> Opinions may differ, but I think that if you want to, you should "reclaim" your territory (and then some).


Day-to-day is fine I guess.... We are still living together and in the same space and still raising our kids and I guess trying to be normal and happy with the kids until we figure out the next move. Getting kids to activities, off to school, etc. When we talk about stuff we usually will go up to the bedroom or walk outside and sit on the patio. We're trying to keep things away from the kids but we are talking a lot more then ever before and yes even hugging more. They have noticed and made comments. I think they are both worried about what's going on. They have seen a change in the last 6 mos.

Saturday am is when she told me she was with him physically "once" during the 5 months. I guess we all know it was more than that and my gut could have told me when exactly as I sensed something was up on certain days or when she would go off to work all happy and dress up. It's all she could bring herself to tell me at the time I guess - trickle truth? She said she is petrified about what I will do with the information. She is afraid that the next piece of truth will be the straw that broke the camel's back. That is when I pointed out to her again that she hasn't done anything that I asked her to do. I walked out of the room twice out of frustration and said let's just get it over with and file. At some point during the discussion, she tried telling me that work would not care about the affair. I let her know I disagreed and that misuse of company assets just about anywhere is grounds for termination. Basically we are in an at will state. Employment at will. If they want to get rid of you they will. At one point in the conversation she actually had the nerve to tell me we both screwed up during the 5 months. I said maybe but I gave it everything I had and you were barely there with me except to console me when I was on the verge of or having a panic attack. I was in the game fighting for our marriage and you remained on the sidelines rooting for the other team. It was really hell for a long time just functioning day to day. Getting through a work day was a huge accomplishment early on after DDay 1. Anyhow, she was a crying mess on Saturday after we went for a walk to the park with the kids. I was not overly affectionate but I consoled her back at the house and sat outside with her for an hour or so trying to both decompress. I still love this woman as f****d up as that is. And, it feels right to do at the time but I wonder afterwards If I am being the NICE GUY again and should not be consoling to her. Am I letting her back in too easily again? I am no longer emotional about this oddly. I mean it is a hard situation but I don't cry in front of her at all anymore. Don't feel like it. It's almost as if she cannot hurt me anymore that what has already been done and I'm just waiting to see if this can be fixed.

She has been pretty distraught about this since I found out the affair was still going almost 2 weeks ago. I find myself wondering what is really driving the emotions. How bad she screwed up? What she has now become (a cheating spouse)? Just the bad state of affairs of our marriage? Does she miss him and feels like she's breaking up with him in addition to everything else going to sh*t? Is she fearful that work and friends and family will find everything out? Or, truly remorseful about what she has done to me and our family. Or all of the above?

We are sleeping in the same bed and having sex again so it's not completely an unloving or toxic environment, which is a weird balance of holding her accountable for her actions without pushing her away totally. I can't say I'm all in yet and I'm not all out either. Limbo I guess but seeing progress forward I think.

She worked on the resume for 3 or 4 hours yesterday and again today. She is definitely showing an effort and being nice to me. She is going out of her way to show me she cares and is willing to do what it takes to make things right. This is a change from the first 5 months. I do wonder how long she can keep it up. I also find myself not trusting anything she says after she says it. This morning she said, "If you're thinking I am going to contact him or talk to him, just put it out of your head because that's the furthest thing from what I want or what I'm working towards right now."

I'm not being needy, depressed, harpy really either. We didn't discuss the affair this weekend except on Saturday am. I don't throw it in her face - or I don't try to. I honestly struggle with the last 5 months more not that the initial affair. To me that's a deeper level of betrayal and deceit that the initial affair. Knowing just how badly she hurt me the first time around, she was willing to do it and risk it all again. Not just hurting me but risking our family and our life for a fantasy. My brother called it pathetic like a guy "falling in love" with a stripper and leaving his family for her. Total fantasy. That may end up being my deal breaker - but I'm still trying for now.

Thanks to all for your posts!


----------



## Road Scholar

Vulcan2013 said:


> RS, have you read MMSLP? Would really help you understand what is going on and how to approach.


MMSLP is that Married Man Sex Primer or something along those lines? Not yet. I have 4 books I will be ordering today.

MMSLP
No More Mr Nice Guy
Not just friends
Women's Infidelity

Any others you would recommend?


----------



## harrybrown

You really need to have her step up to the plate or call it quits.

She did dress up and do wonderful things for the POSOM and what has she done for you? She went back again and ripped your heart out of your chest and then set it on fire!

Expose at work, you need to be no more nice guy. She does not respect you. RESPECT yourself.


----------



## treyvion

LongWalk said:


> I think RoadScholar is coming to the conclusion that the advice he is getting is good. The soft approach is not working well. The longer the rot drags out, the greater the poison.
> 
> RS, your wife wants you to lay down the law because it will define the choices open to her. Abandon ship and go for a new family with the POSOM or repair her marriage.


Decisive and well-principled responses.



LongWalk said:


> As long as she gets away with cake eating she feels sort of good, but she knows the emotional truth. Allowing the OM to have her without commitment for a long time weakens her change at a LTR with him. Why should he commit himself to your kids?


Cake eating is "la-la" land, she knows it... But she figures as long as you are ok with it, why should she stop.




LongWalk said:


> Every stroke of his body into your wife is erasing your wife's respect for you. You need to halt it.


This sounds gory put this way, but it is right. It doesn't even take that long, the OM has his rightful place as your Wifes "man". When you try to address her as such over time it even becomes comical to her brain.



LongWalk said:


> If she has to have the pleasure, she must define the costs for all. For OM, you and herself. When you put the pressure on her she may bail, but even if she does quit your marriage, if he has sex with while you are separated, it will at least not be a dirty secret. That will change their relationship.


On of the basic principles of these situations was not to support the WAS. To 180 and get on with your life. One strategy was to completely bow out of the relationship, let the OM "have" her. Most of them came around for the easy sex, but when it comes to taking care of or being responsible for your WAS, it was not what they signed up for. When the WAS see's that the OM will not take care of her, then she will wake up. The doubt about the whole thing, is what if she stays gone? Well she could've done it anyway, and she could have stayed... Keeping the OM in the picture as her sexual and intimate relation partner, while drawing on you for emotional and financial support.



LongWalk said:


> The chances of that new relationship failing are great. Will you want her back then? She needs to think about this. And she will if she is not out of her mind. If she is out of her mind, you need to cut her loose in any case.


These affairs fail at a rate much greater than american marriage when it becomes the primary situation. You may have solice in this, that your WAS may come back home after that situation fails. But another thought process was do you really want to be with someone who is comfortable doing that to you?


----------



## nogutsnoglory

harrybrown said:


> You really need to have her step up to the plate or call it quits.
> 
> She did dress up and do wonderful things for the POSOM and what has she done for you? She went back again and ripped your heart out of your chest and then set it on fire!
> 
> Expose at work, you need to be no more nice guy. She does not respect you. RESPECT yourself.


I agree completely. You have not shown her any real consequences for the affair and that is why she continues it. She has not finished the resume because you demanded it. She does not do what you tell her. She only does what he tells her.
You are teaching your children what it is like to be a sucker. I am sorry but drag her azz to a polygraph and expose her to everyone. stop being the weak individual she cheated on. You continue to be that man, so she continues to treat you the same way. you want different than do something different. Enough with the idle threats. She is as bored with them as we are. We have seen this a thousand times and nothing will work out in your favor if you do not show strength. Hard exposure is necessary. She is still in the affair fog and you must lift the fog. Only exposure does that. She is manipulating you, still lying to you and you know it. Show your kids what a real man does when he is disrespected. Show them what happens to lying cheating wh0res. Teach them that theyh do not have to allow others to hurt them. You will damage them more if you continue the charade you are living in now. Was fu$king him 2 weeks ago... Give me a break man, grow a pair! I am so sorry you are hurting, but actually do something about it.


----------



## Will_Kane

Road Scholar said:


> She has been pretty distraught about this since I found out the affair was still going almost 2 weeks ago. *I find myself wondering what is really driving the emotions*. How bad she screwed up? What she has now become (a cheating spouse)? Just the bad state of affairs of our marriage? Does she miss him and feels like she's breaking up with him in addition to everything else going to sh*t? *Is she fearful that work and friends and family will find everything out?* Or, truly remorseful about what she has done to me and our family. Or all of the above?


As you rightly say, it is some combination of all of the above. Her top three concerns are easy to identify:

1. Afraid of family/friends finding out.
2. Afraid of work finding out/getting fired.
3. Very worried that other man will have pain, and it will be her fault. She does not want to be the source of pain for him.

I think those are in the correct order, and each is very important to her. Maybe all close to a rank of 1 out of 5 in order of what is driving her emotions.

Further down the list would be fear of hurting your kids and having a lasting negative impact on their lives. Maybe a rank of 2 out of 5 in terms of what is driving her emotions, but only when they are present; otherwise, out of sight, out of mind.

Your rank in all this is even much lower than the kids. But that's not as bad as it sounds, because you always were number three in the family, behind her and the kids, way before the affair even took place, so this is nothing new. You placed yourself below her and the kids all these years by always deferring on what you wanted to what they wanted. (That's a lesson for some time in the future, to place your needs on an equal level with everyone else's in the family and not always subjugate what you want to what they all want.) Hurting you is maybe a rank of 3.5 out of 5 in terms of what is driving her emotions, but moreso when you are present and she can see you hurting, less so when you are not in her presence.

The relationship with other man is fantasy, but they only were good things to each other. There was no "bad" between them. Every single thing about each other was "positive." No fights or arguments, no unpleasantness, no criticisms of each other, just telling each other how great each other are and how hot, sexy, funny, pretty, etc. It's hard to dislike someone who only tells you nice things about yourself, and it is hard to watch someone who dedicated themselves so selflessly to you, not even ever being critical of you, get hurt on your account. So she really doesn't want to hurt him, or for him to be hurt by you on her account.

It is important for you to contact other man's wife, to let him throw your wife under the bus, and to keep busy with his own problems. Don't believe her when she says she is not in contact with him. It's extremely probable that she already warned him about you contacting his wife, or you contacting the job. You shouldn't be talking about either of those things with her, going forward, just change the subject, because right now she still is a spy looking out for other man as well as herself. She worries that other man's wife could blow up the situation on the job, and could contact her family, and could contact you and tell you some bad details you are not aware of yet. It is probable that some of that will occur, which part of it is anybody's guess.

Judging from her behavior, the romantic/sexual part of the affair is at least on hold, though I think they still are in "protecting each other and protecting against further repercussions" mode. It may be that after she warned other man, he already started to distance himself from her, and if so that also would be driving her emotional state. Chances that she has had contact with other man since D-Day 2 are close to 100 percent, and getting higher with each passing day.

It would be a very, very significant blow to your wife's ego that this guy who she risked so much for, not once, but twice, would be willing to walk away from her at all. Even if she told him she had to end it, just him agreeing to it would devastate her. She would expect him to tell her, "no way, I will not give you up, I will leave my wife if I have to," to which she could reply, "no, that's not necessary, let's just cool it for a while."


----------



## workindad

OP you have a plan and a timeline of sorts. Do not back slide 

My best guess is the she will probe for weakness in you and attempt to exploit that to her advantage. If correct expect that she will test your resolve and boundaries with excuses for why she can't get your demands met 

Make sure you follow through with a poly. Her timeline will likely be bogus, if she does one at all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shaggy

RS - has she purged her affair stuff?

1. Clothes , lingere, shoes, jewelry , make up she wore for him? It all goes. Yes she will need to buy new stuff , but it's important to purge her world of ALL physical things that were for him. 

2. Gifts her gave her

3. Photos of him or photos of her when she was with him?

This stuff should be gone immediately.


----------



## anchorwatch

*Re: Re: No sex after her affair...*



Road Scholar said:


> MMSLP is that Married Man Sex Primer or something along those lines? Not yet. I have 4 books I will be ordering today.
> 
> MMSLP
> No More Mr Nice Guy
> Not just friends
> Women's Infidelity
> 
> Any others you would recommend?


Surviving an Affair
His Needs, Her Needs

Those Six books are the most recommended on this site.


----------



## LongWalk

Your detachment, though incomplete, has not escaped her. It has had an affect. You may continue with hysterical bonding for a period, but then you will feel angry and disgusted.

Perhaps, to increase the chances of a successful R you need to get the timeline. This will allow a better chance to get to the bottom, for without a reliable history, your R will be built on sand.

The emotional component is vital here.

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


----------



## Will_Kane

Road Scholar said:


> That is when* I pointed out to her again that she hasn't done anything that I asked her to do*. I walked out of the room twice out of frustration and said let's just get it over with and file. At some point during the discussion, she tried telling me that work would not care about the affair. At one point in the conversation she actually had the nerve to tell me we both screwed up during the 5 months.
> 
> Anyhow, she was a crying mess on Saturday after we went for a walk to the park with the kids. I was not overly affectionate but I consoled her back at the house and sat outside with her for an hour or so trying to both decompress. I still love this woman as f****d up as that is. And, it feels right to do at the time but *I wonder afterwards If I am being the NICE GUY again and should not be consoling to her. Am I letting her back in too easily again?*
> 
> We are sleeping in the same bed and *having sex again* Limbo I guess but *seeing progress forward I think*.
> 
> *She worked on the resume for 3 or 4 hours yesterday and again today.* *She is definitely showing an effort and being nice to me*.


Updating a resume shouldn't take three hours. Whoever is going to hire her is going to spend all of five minutes looking at it. Given the urgency of the circumstances, three hours is enough time spent already. *She is dragging her feet*. She really would like to spend a couple of weeks honing every single word on the resume so she can avoid (1) looking for a job and (2) writing a timeline.

Don't talk to her about whether or not they would care about the affair at her job. Keep silent about that for now. Focus on her quitting the job. 

Completing the resume is a meaningless accomplishment and should take no one more than an hour. We're not talking about a great literary work here, we're talking about a piece of paper that describes your basic experience and qualifications. Anyone she sends it to already is going to know what her job entailed just by her job title. The President of the United States has a lot of varying domestic and international responsibilities, but I bet he could write a resume in less than an hour. Her time would be better spent networking with past co-workers and bosses from past jobs or who left your wife's place of work to see if they have any leads.

*It's leaving the job that should be the focus*, not completing the resume. Most people at your wife's level get hired based on contacts, connections, and reputation, not by sending resumes to strangers.

I think you are being too nice with the consoling. In my opinion, more sex, less consoling. Let her cry it out. If she seeks you out for comfort while she is crying, don't push her away, but keep any hug or reassuring touches short, no more than a minute or so, and then let her know gently that she was the one that cheated on you, and that you still are waiting for that timeline and for her to leave the job.


----------



## Shaggy

Btw, you should sit down and write your own timeline.


----------



## carmen ohio

Road Scholar said:


> Day-to-day is fine I guess.... We are still living together and in the same space and still raising our kids and I guess trying to be normal and happy with the kids until we figure out the next move. Getting kids to activities, off to school, etc. When we talk about stuff we usually will go up to the bedroom or walk outside and sit on the patio. We're trying to keep things away from the kids but we are talking a lot more then ever before and yes even hugging more. They have noticed and made comments. I think they are both worried about what's going on. They have seen a change in the last 6 mos.
> 
> Saturday am is when she told me she was with him physically "once" during the 5 months. I guess we all know it was more than that and my gut could have told me when exactly as I sensed something was up on certain days or when she would go off to work all happy and dress up. It's all she could bring herself to tell me at the time I guess - trickle truth? * She said she is petrified about what I will do with the information. She is afraid that the next piece of truth will be the straw that broke the camel's back.* That is when I pointed out to her again that she hasn't done anything that I asked her to do. I walked out of the room twice out of frustration and said let's just get it over with and file. At some point during the discussion, she tried telling me that work would not care about the affair. I let her know I disagreed and that misuse of company assets just about anywhere is grounds for termination. Basically we are in an at will state. Employment at will. If they want to get rid of you they will. At one point in the conversation she actually had the nerve to tell me we both screwed up during the 5 months. I said maybe but I gave it everything I had and you were barely there with me except to console me when I was on the verge of or having a panic attack. *I was in the game fighting for our marriage and you remained on the sidelines rooting for the other team.* It was really hell for a long time just functioning day to day. Getting through a work day was a huge accomplishment early on after DDay 1. Anyhow, she was a crying mess on Saturday after we went for a walk to the park with the kids. I was not overly affectionate but I consoled her back at the house and sat outside with her for an hour or so trying to both decompress. I still love this woman as f****d up as that is. And, it feels right to do at the time but I wonder afterwards If I am being the NICE GUY again and should not be consoling to her. Am I letting her back in too easily again? I am no longer emotional about this oddly. I mean it is a hard situation but I don't cry in front of her at all anymore. Don't feel like it. It's almost as if she cannot hurt me anymore that what has already been done and I'm just waiting to see if this can be fixed.
> 
> She has been pretty distraught about this since I found out the affair was still going almost 2 weeks ago. I find myself wondering what is really driving the emotions. How bad she screwed up? What she has now become (a cheating spouse)? Just the bad state of affairs of our marriage? Does she miss him and feels like she's breaking up with him in addition to everything else going to sh*t? Is she fearful that work and friends and family will find everything out? Or, truly remorseful about what she has done to me and our family. Or all of the above?
> 
> *We are sleeping in the same bed and having sex again so it's not completely an unloving or toxic environment, which is a weird balance of holding her accountable for her actions without pushing her away totally.* I can't say I'm all in yet and I'm not all out either. Limbo I guess but seeing progress forward I think.
> 
> She worked on the resume for 3 or 4 hours yesterday and again today. She is definitely showing an effort and being nice to me. She is going out of her way to show me she cares and is willing to do what it takes to make things right. This is a change from the first 5 months. I do wonder how long she can keep it up. I also find myself not trusting anything she says after she says it. This morning she said, "If you're thinking I am going to contact him or talk to him, just put it out of your head because that's the furthest thing from what I want or what I'm working towards right now."
> 
> I'm not being needy, depressed, harpy really either. We didn't discuss the affair this weekend except on Saturday am. I don't throw it in her face - or I don't try to. I honestly struggle with the last 5 months more not that the initial affair. To me that's a deeper level of betrayal and deceit that the initial affair. Knowing just how badly she hurt me the first time around, she was willing to do it and risk it all again. Not just hurting me but risking our family and our life for a fantasy. My brother called it pathetic like a guy "falling in love" with a stripper and leaving his family for her. Total fantasy. That may end up being my deal breaker - but *I'm still trying* for now.
> 
> Thanks to all for your posts!


Dear Road Scholar,

I find it really amazing that you are able to ignore what everybody -- including your WW -- is telling you: that this will not end until you give her serious consequences for her repeated infidelity and demonstrate your willingness to divorce her if she does not tell you the truth, break it off once and for all with the OM and start doing what she needs to do to regain your trust.

When she says that she is afraid of what you will do with the information you already have or if the next piece of information will be "the straw that broke (sic) the camel's back," she is essentially begging you to do something to force her to give up the OM and return to you and her marriage. She is pleading with you in her own way to start acting like a man and tell her on no uncertain terms what you expect from her or else you will divorce her.

What do you do? You continue to dither, hoping that she will find her way back to you without you having to do anything. You claim to have fought for your marriage the past 5 months but, if you think what you did was "fight" for it, I'd hate to think what you would consider capitulation. Fighting for your marriage means laying down rules for your WW to follow with the consequence that, if she fails to follow the follow the rules, you will divorce her.

I'm sorry but I feel it necessary to remind you once again that a man who lets his WW continue in an adulterous relationship is behaving like a man with no self-respect. Given that cheating on you was the most dramatic expression of your WW's disrespect for you that she could make, your continued tolerance of her adultery means that she will eventually lose whatever remaining respect she has for you. When that happens, your marriage and your family will be toast.

You find the fact that she is now having sex with you again as a good thing. In fact, what she has done is test whether you are willing to share her and, by having sex with her while her affair is on-going, you have said "yes."

The truth is that you are so screwed up in your thinking that you consider what you are doing (which is basically nothing) as "still trying." Still trying to do what, come to grips with the fact that your WW cheated on you (she did), see if you can live with her continuing to cheat (you are), get over it if she does (sadly, it looks like it)? These are merely attempts by you to rationalize doing nothing.

If you prefer to do nothing and are prepared to suffer the consequences because you fear that anything you do may result in the end of your marriage and break up of your family, fine. But at least admit to yourself that you would prefer to live the life of a cuckold in order to "save" your family (if what you will have at that point can be called a "family") and that that is what you mean to do. Stop pretending that you are struggling to end her infidelity and simply face the fact that you have given up. Get a new hobby to take your mind off the fact that your WW loves someone else and to occupy your time when she is with him.

At the very least, read the books that have been recommended to you and then ask yourself if you are doing any of the things that they recommend a BS do. I believe you will learn that the answer is "no."

I realize that this is a very harsh note (as are many others that you have received). The reason for it is that some guys can't seem to understand how badly they are screwing up unless they are hit with numerous proverbial 2x4s. You are one of those guys. If I've offended you, just tell me to keep quiet in the future and I will. But, if any of this rings true, please reconsider what your inaction is doing to you and your family and start to take the advice you have received here.

Wishing you the wisdom and courage to do what you need to do.


----------



## hopefulgirl

Road Scholar said:


> MMSLP is that Married Man Sex Primer or something along those lines? Not yet. I have 4 books I will be ordering today.
> 
> MMSLP
> No More Mr Nice Guy
> Not just friends
> Women's Infidelity
> 
> Any others you would recommend?


NOT Just Friends by Glass and How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair by MacDonald. Both are books by marriage therapists who specialize in working with couples who have dealt with infidelity; Glass did research on the subject and is widely regarded as the foremost expert in the field.

I am reconciling with my husband. If you decide to go that way, I will warn you that it is VERY difficult. Eight months out and I still deal with trust issues, even though the affair is totally over (I have NO doubt about that). I know that I will never have 100% trust in him again, and I've accepted that fact. But I'm not even near that level yet - it's going to take a lot of "proving" himself over time to get into the upper 90's.

I would also warn you that a lot of people who post on TAM chose not to reconcile, and some of them are quite bitter. Their advice, and recommendations for reading material as well, will reflect their experiences - and biases. We all have biases. Let's put that right out there. I'm biased in favor of trained experts who have track records in saving marriages that have been blown apart by the trauma of infidelity. 

I know I married someone who was a good man and I believe that good man is still in there - something happened, he changed, the whole thing was totally out of character for him, and I'm going to give him and our marriage another chance. He is ashamed, he hates what he did, it wasn't like him at all, and even though he was "nuts" even for awhile after I found out (they don't snap out of it right away), I am hopeful that with time and counseling and healing, we can get through this.

I'm not a practicing Catholic, but I was raised one, so I think I get some of what is behind the "nice guy" stuff. I think there's nothing wrong with being a nice guy. Actually, the world might be a better place if there was more of it. (This new pope seems like a "nice guy" and frankly, I'm very impressed, even though I don't follow much about the church. A little more mercy and a little less condemnation. Let he who is without sin....)

Yes, there must be consequences! I said, and still think, a trip to a lawyer would be helpful, to emphasize to yourself AND your wife that D is in fact an option. Letting her know you are considering both R AND D at this stage is better than deciding too soon. But she can STILL read that book on helping you to heal. (The sooner, the better - it will help her to come out of her fog.) The last 5 months, you were dealing in good faith, she wasn't. That's not a "nice guy" problem - you just took her at face value. It was a D-Day #2 situation, which is not too uncommon - she took it underground. You need to decide if she was a good person who changed temporarily, or if she is really someone who was a bad woman all along and you were fooled. You may not know that yet. That's why you "get to" take this time to sort out what you feel and what you think. Don't be rushed into anything. Read stuff, but I suggest you put more stock in what real experts have to say, especially if you are truly considering R.


----------



## awake1

Road Scholar said:


> When we talk about stuff we usually will go up to the bedroom or walk outside and sit on the patio. We're trying to keep things away from the kids but we are talking a lot more then ever before and yes even hugging more. They have noticed and made comments. I think they are both worried about what's going on. They have seen a change in the last 6 mos.


Holy moly. 

She's all but still having sex with OM and you're playing nice? Talking? Exactly what is there to talk about? 


Road Scholar said:


> And, it feels right to do at the time but I wonder afterwards If I am being the NICE GUY again and should not be consoling to her. Am I letting her back in too easily again? I am no longer emotional about this oddly. I mean it is a hard situation but I don't cry in front of her at all anymore. Don't feel like it. It's almost as if she cannot hurt me anymore that what has already been done and I'm just waiting to see if this can be fixed..


You're consoling her? Can you explain the logic behind this entire reversal of the script? 

You're stretched thin and emotionally burnt out. No wonder you're numb. 


Road Scholar said:


> She has been pretty distraught about this since I found out the affair was still going almost 2 weeks ago. I find myself wondering what is really driving the emotions.


A worry you might decide play time is over and throw away the cake. 


Road Scholar said:


> What she has now become (a cheating spouse)? Just the bad state of affairs of our marriage? Does she miss him and feels like she's breaking up with him in addition to everything else going to sh*t?


If they aren't still talking, probably. If they are still talking it's a dog and pony show.


Road Scholar said:


> Is she fearful that work and friends and family will find everything out? Or, truly remorseful about what she has done to me and our family. Or all of the above?


Your feelings obviously factor very little into her world of unicorns who crap rainbows. She would have quit her job that instant. 


Road Scholar said:


> We are sleeping in the same bed and having sex again so it's not completely an unloving or toxic environment, which is a weird balance of holding her accountable for her actions without pushing her away totally.


This is a FWWs main weapon to reel you back in. The very week of my DDay one, my cousin who had his wife cheat on him said "She'll try using sex to pull you back in." He was spot on. She'll try anything to avoid facing the music. Pushing her away is _exactly_ what you should be doing.


Road Scholar said:


> She worked on the resume for 3 or 4 hours yesterday and again today. She is definitely showing an effort and being nice to me. She is going out of her way to show me she cares and is willing to do what it takes to make things right. This is a change from the first 5 months. I do wonder how long she can keep it up. I also find myself not trusting anything she says after she says it. This morning she said, "If you're thinking I am going to contact him or talk to him, just put it out of your head because that's the furthest thing from what I want or what I'm working towards right now."


You'd be a fool to trust anything that comes out of her mouth. Without force of action there is no reason to be compliant. 


Road Scholar said:


> I'm not being needy, depressed, harpy really either. We didn't discuss the affair this weekend except on Saturday am. I don't throw it in her face - or I don't try to. I honestly struggle with the last 5 months more not that the initial affair. To me that's a deeper level of betrayal and deceit that the initial affair. Knowing just how badly she hurt me the first time around, she was willing to do it and risk it all again. Not just hurting me but risking our family and our life for a fantasy. My brother called it pathetic like a guy "falling in love" with a stripper and leaving his family for her. Total fantasy. That may end up being my deal breaker - but I'm still trying for now.


That is similar to my own situation. continuing deception after DDay is a new level of betrayal and abuse. 

Treating you like dirt is like pulling the wings off a fly to watch it squirm. It has a sadistic nature to it. 

So now you know who she is, and not who you thought she was. 

Will you kiss her goodbye before work knowing what she is capable of?


If you're not already, lifting weights and eating right are priority #1. Second, read MMSLP and no more mr nice guy. Talk to guy friends, go out, have fun. Make your relationship and her a smaller part of your life.

I saw you mentioned all this, but they're CRUCIAL. If you're not already, counseling might help.


----------



## illwill

hopefulgirl said:


> NOT Just Friends by Glass and How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair by MacDonald. Both are books by marriage therapists who specialize in working with couples who have dealt with infidelity; Glass did research on the subject and is widely regarded as the foremost expert in the field.
> 
> I am reconciling with my husband. If you decide to go that way, I will warn you that it is VERY difficult. Eight months out and I still deal with trust issues, even though the affair is totally over (I have NO doubt about that). I know that I will never have 100% trust in him again, and I've accepted that fact. But I'm not even near that level yet - it's going to take a lot of "proving" himself over time to get into the upper 90's.
> 
> I would also warn you that a lot of people who post on TAM chose not to reconcile, and some of them are quite bitter. Their advice, and recommendations for reading material as well, will reflect their experiences - and biases. We all have biases. Let's put that right out there. I'm biased in favor of trained experts who have track records in saving marriages that have been blown apart by the trauma of infidelity.
> 
> I know I married someone who was a good man and I believe that good man is still in there - something happened, he changed, the whole thing was totally out of character for him, and I'm going to give him and our marriage another chance. He is ashamed, he hates what he did, it wasn't like him at all, and even though he was "nuts" even for awhile after I found out (they don't snap out of it right away), I am hopeful that with time and counseling and healing, we can get through this.
> 
> I'm not a practicing Catholic, but I was raised one, so I think I get some of what is behind the "nice guy" stuff. I think there's nothing wrong with being a nice guy. Actually, the world might be a better place if there was more of it. (This new pope seems like a "nice guy" and frankly, I'm very impressed, even though I don't follow much about the church. A little more mercy and a little less condemnation. Let he who is without sin....)
> 
> Yes, there must be consequences! I said, and still think, a trip to a lawyer would be helpful, to emphasize to yourself AND your wife that D is in fact an option. Letting her know you are considering both R AND D at this stage is better than deciding too soon. But she can STILL read that book on helping you to heal. (The sooner, the better - it will help her to come out of her fog.) The last 5 months, you were dealing in good faith, she wasn't. That's not a "nice guy" problem - you just took her at face value. It was a D-Day #2 situation, which is not too uncommon - she took it underground. You need to decide if she was a good person who changed temporarily, or if she is really someone who was a bad woman all along and you were fooled. You may not know that yet. That's why you "get to" take this time to sort out what you feel and what you think. Don't be rushed into anything. Read stuff, but I suggest you put more stock in what real experts have to say, especially if you are truly considering R.


It is insulting to call the betrayed spouses on here bitter. They give freely of their time for years sometimes, even suffering through triggers. Just because someone has no tolerance for cheating does not make them bitter. Just like it does not make you weak for reconciling.


----------



## TRy

Road Scholar said:


> Saturday am is when she told me she was with him physically "once" during the 5 months. I guess we all know it was more than that and my gut could have told me when exactly as I sensed something was up on certain days or when she would go off to work all happy and dress up. It's all she could bring herself to tell me at the time I guess - trickle truth? She said she is petrified about what I will do with the information. She is afraid that the next piece of truth will be the straw that broke the camel's back.


 The next piece of truth that she fears would break the camel's back, is to admit to you what you already know. That while denying you sex over the last 5 months, she has been having regular sex with the other man (OM). That for the past 5 months while being disloyal and sexually unfaithful to you, she has been loyal and sexually faithful to the OM by denying you her husband sex. What an ego boost for the OM to know that she was in a sexually exclusive relationship with him while still being your wife. Everything tastes better to him when he knows that it is off of your plate, especially when he knows that your wife is willing to let you go hungry to meet his ego boosting needs.


----------



## Road Scholar

carmen ohio said:


> Dear Road Scholar,
> 
> I find it really amazing that you are able to ignore what everybody -- including your WW -- is telling you: that this will not end until you give her serious consequences for her repeated infidelity and demonstrate your willingness to divorce her if she does not tell you the truth, break it off once and for all with the OM and start doing what she needs to do to regain your trust.
> 
> When she says that she is afraid of what you will do with the information you already have or if the next piece of information will be "the straw that broke (sic) the camel's back," she is essentially begging you to do something to force her to give up the OM and return to you and her marriage. She is pleading with you in her own way to start acting like a man and tell her on no uncertain terms what you expect from her or else you will divorce her.
> 
> What do you do? You continue to dither, hoping that she will find her way back to you without you having to do anything. You claim to have fought for your marriage the past 5 months but, if you think what you did was "fight" for it, I'd hate to think what you would consider capitulation. Fighting for your marriage means laying down rules for your WW to follow with the consequence that, if she fails to follow the follow the rules, you will divorce her.
> 
> I'm sorry but I feel it necessary to remind you once again that a man who lets his WW continue in an adulterous relationship is behaving like a man with no self-respect. Given that cheating on you was the most dramatic expression of your WW's disrespect for you that she could make, your continued tolerance of her adultery means that she will eventually lose whatever remaining respect she has for you. When that happens, your marriage and your family will be toast.
> 
> You find the fact that she is now having sex with you again as a good thing. In fact, what she has done is test whether you are willing to share her and, by having sex with her while her affair is on-going, you have said "yes."
> 
> The truth is that you are so screwed up in your thinking that you consider what you are doing (which is basically nothing) as "still trying." Still trying to do what, come to grips with the fact that your WW cheated on you (she did), see if you can live with her continuing to cheat (you are), get over it if she does (sadly, it looks like it)? These are merely attempts by you to rationalize doing nothing.
> 
> If you prefer to do nothing and are prepared to suffer the consequences because you fear that anything you do may result in the end of your marriage and break up of your family, fine. But at least admit to yourself that you would prefer to live the life of a cuckold in order to "save" your family (if what you will have at that point can be called a "family") and that that is what you mean to do. Stop pretending that you are struggling to end her infidelity and simply face the fact that you have given up. Get a new hobby to take your mind off the fact that your WW loves someone else and to occupy your time when she is with him.
> 
> At the very least, read the books that have been recommended to you and then ask yourself if you are doing any of the things that they recommend a BS do. I believe you will learn that the answer is "no."
> 
> I realize that this is a very harsh note (as are many others that you have received). The reason for it is that some guys can't seem to understand how badly they are screwing up unless they are hit with numerous proverbial 2x4s. You are one of those guys. If I've offended you, just tell me to keep quiet in the future and I will. But, if any of this rings true, please reconsider what your inaction is doing to you and your family and start to take the advice you have received here.
> 
> Wishing you the wisdom and courage to do what you need to do.


I'm curious as to why you feel the affair is still going on and if others on the site feel the same? She claims to have ended it....and my threat of filing made her see the light. I understand I found out about her still being in contact with him versus her telling me but is it possible she has snapped out of it when I told her I'm filing for divorce? 

Also, while she probably felt like she loved him, during the affair why is it you feel she still loves him? It's sick that she was telling me she loved me during the whole 5 month period. Again says she only saw him once....can't be true right?

I appreciate the tough love but what specifically are you suggesting I do that I haven't done?


----------



## TRy

Road Scholar said:


> what specifically are you suggesting I do that I haven't done?


 Most of us are suggesting that you stop believing that the trickle truth of a proven liar and cheat, is the truth. You have stated that "I guess we all know it was more than that and my gut could have told me when exactly as I sensed something was up on certain days or when she would go off to work all happy and dress up." We are instead suggesting that you start trusting your gut, as it has proven to be a better indicator of the truth then what your cheating wife is telling you.


----------



## Will_Kane

Road Scholar said:


> I'm curious as to why you feel the affair is still going on and* if others on the site feel the same? * She claims to have ended it....and my threat of filing made her see the light. I understand I found out about her still being in contact with him versus her telling me but *is it possible she has snapped out of it when I told her I'm filing for divorce?*
> 
> Also, while she probably felt like she loved him, during the affair *why is it you feel she still loves him?* It's sick that she was telling me she loved me during the whole 5 month period. *Again says she only saw him once....can't be true right?*
> 
> I appreciate the tough love but what specifically are you suggesting I do that I haven't done?


I'm answering the questions from your most recent post. 

*Do others on the site still feel the affair is going on?*

I think she is in contact with him at work. I think she has warned him about you telling his wife and about you possibly telling work. I think she keeps him updated on developments. I think it is possible that she has told him she still cares for him deeply and loves him, but she is reconciling with you ONLY for the sake of the children. This is based on past experience of seeing and reading here about other cheating wives, and how much your wife is following exactly what has happened in those other cases. I think if she continues to work with him and have access to him at work, and you do not contact his wife, this will blow back up into a physical affair again. As it is, just being in contact with him, seeing his name on emails or work assignments or project plans, even going so far as to talk to others in his department and asking them how he's doing or asking them about a client he's doing work for, is keeping her mind in the affair. As long as she still works with him, the affair lives. My guess is that he started to distance himself from her after she warned him about you, which hurt her deeply, but that she still MIGHT be open to advances from him if he makes a turnaround.

Your wife gets a call from other man. The receptionist buzzes your wife, "Mrs. Road, Other Man is on line 3" - what do you think your wife says in order to act like nothing is wrong - "tell him I'm not in" would raise some suspicion, especially if it happens multiple times. She would have to pick up the phone and talk to him.

You made a mistake in tipping your hand about possible exposure at work. If other man has any sense, he already has dropped a few hints with superiors/co-workers that "Mr. Road seems to have gotten the wrong idea over some innocent conversations I've had with Mrs. Road. That man is wacko. I feel sorry for Mrs. Road, having to live with a jealous possessive guy like that. Can you keep this between us, I don't want this getting back to Mrs. Road and making her feel any worse or any more embarrassed than she already does. She's a nice woman who doesn't deserve that."

He also probably tipped off his wife in a similar way.

*is it possible she has snapped out of it when I told her I'm filing for divorce?*

Answering a question with a question: Did you "snap out of it" when you found out she was cheating the first time? How about when you found out the second time, did you "snap out of it" then? The two situations (you loving her, she loving him) are somewhat different, but alike enough in that you don't stop loving someone just because someone else finds out about it or threatens a harsh action. When the affair was going on, HE WAS NUMBER ONE, YOU WERE A DISTANT SECOND. There are a lot of other factors at play here - the kids, her job, her worry for consequences for the man she is "in love" with, her reputation with friends and family, other man distancing himself from her - who knows. THIS MUCH IS A FACT: SHE DIDN'T "SNAP OUT OF IT" ENOUGH TO TELL YOU THE FULL TRUTH RIGHT AWAY. She lied to you about not being physical with him in the last five months.

*why is it you feel she still loves him?*

1. Not coming clean about it being physical and being worried more about her reputation and job than her marriage and kids and husband.
2. Her still worried about protecting him, telling you that her job will not care (she supposedly is an intelligent women with some career smarts, right? there is no way to interpret this other than protecting herself and protecting him).
3. Her not quitting the job immediately, and not yet still.
4. Her still giving you blame for her continuing the affair after the first D-Day, saying that you "both screwed up during those five months."
5. Her dragging her feet with the timeline and resume, not doing ONE SINGLE ACTION yet. (TWO KEY ACTIONS - LEAVE THE JOB, WRITE THE TIMELINE; after that, it will be take the poly).

There are some positives, too, but as others have posted, they could be false positives. I don't think so, but there is no guarantee.

*Again says she only saw him once....can't be true right?*

Right, it can't be true, she slept with him once every 2-4 weeks, or about 5-10 times total during those five months. You posted correctly: _I guess we all know it was more than that and my gut could have told me when exactly as I sensed something was up on certain days or when she would go off to work all happy and dress up. It's all she could bring herself to tell me at the time I guess - trickle truth? _

On the bright side, she still says she wants to reconcile and still is saying she will do what you want. On the not-so-bright side, after her initial enthusiasm, she seems now to just be wishing that you will forget about everything and go back to "normal." The other posters are growing impatient with her lack of concrete actions, as should you be. She is pushing you to see how far she will go. I think whatever deadline you set, she will put you off to see if you are serious. Monday morning: "do you have the timeline" her-"I'm still working on it" you-"I'm going now to file" her-"OK, here it is, but it's not completely finished" you-(looking at it) "it's practically empty, there's nothing on it" her-"it's what I thought you wanted, I did my best, I can't remember everything." IF ANYTHING LIKE THIS HAPPENS, GO FILE, THEN SORT IT OUT WITH HER. If she tries to put you off like that, you know she is just testing you.

1. Leave the job
2. Timeline
3. You tell other man's wife
4. Polygraph
5. STD tests?

Do you have a voice-activated recorder in the car? If not, it's time to get one in place.


----------



## tom67

You still have not contacted the omw did you, not good.


----------



## Refuse to be played

Wow. F##k a 2x4, the OP needs to get hit a whole goddamn redwood.


----------



## tom67

Refuse to be played said:


> Wow. F##k a 2x4, the OP needs to get hit a whole goddamn redwood.


:slap:
:banghead:
:wtf:


----------



## carmen ohio

Road Scholar said:


> *I'm curious as to why you feel the affair is still going on* and if others on the site feel the same? She claims to have ended it....and my threat of filing made her see the light. I understand I found out about her still being in contact with him versus her telling me but is it possible she has snapped out of it when I told her I'm filing for divorce?
> 
> Also, while she probably felt like she loved him, during the affair *why is it you feel she still loves him?* It's sick that she was telling me she loved me during the whole 5 month period. Again says she only saw him once....can't be true right?
> 
> I appreciate the tough love but *what specifically are you suggesting I do that I haven't done?*


Dear Road Scholar,

In your post of September 19 (#28) you said, "asked to see her phone tonight after a minor argument... yep still having the affair." You also told us (post #114) that you don't know when the "physical" part of the affair ended and had no way of determining it other than to accept the word of your WW who lied to you for 5 months after you discovered her PA. Then you told us that she finally admitted to being with the OM during the 5 months, that she claimed only once and that you don't believe that (post #319). You've also said that they work together (post #1), that she's refused to quit her job (post #117) and that she is dragging her feet in putting her resume together (post #356). She did send him a NC letter but even you admitted that it was rather perfunctory (post #145). The OM has refused to tell you when he last say your WW and even lied to you about it (post #178) and she expressed dismay at the thought of your going after the OM (posts ##211 and 253). She's also delayed producing the time-line you asked for (post #253) and, as recently as this Saturday was still claiming you were partly to blame for the false R (post #387).

Do I know for a fact that your WW's affair "is still going on"? No, but what has that got to do with anything. The question is, is your WW serious this time about R and is she capable of it? What I do know is that it's only been 11 days since you found out that the last 5 months of supposed R was a complete lie on your WW's part. IMO, you had best not consider the affair over until you know FOR A FACT that your WW has had no contact with the OM at work or anywhere else for a really long period of time, she proves to you not with tears but by her actions that she comprehends the magnitude of the injustice she has done to you and the harm she has done to her family and she becomes completely open and honest with you about what she has done.

As to her still loving him, you've said that you believe she probably still does (posts ##253 and 328) and, given how little time has past since you know she was in contact with him behind your back, it is hard to imagine that she does not continue to be in love with him.

You ask what you should do now. Let me ask you: what consequences has your WW received for cheating on you not once but twice (and getting caught doesn't count as a consequence)? You've threatened divorce but you haven't filed or even spoken to a lawyer. You haven't exposed her infidelity. You she hasn't had to quit her job. She hasn't produced the time line. She hasn't taken a polygraph test (even thought you know she continues to lie to you). From what I can tell, she hasn't even given you all her passwords.

Perhaps I misunderstand but from what you write you seem afraid to do anything about your WW's infidelity for fear of driving her away. What I think you fail to comprehend is that she has already left you emotionally, even if she agrees, for now, to stay with you. How will you know if she is really sorry for what she's done and is willing to do the hard work to fix her marriage? Do some of the things that numerous posters have suggested and see how she reacts. If she continues to show remorse, starts to tell the complete truth and does everything else you ask of her willingly and promptly, then you can be reasonable assured that R may work. If she complains, argues, makes excuses, delays or refuses, then you will know that another attempt at R is unlikely to succeed.

Until she experiences serious consequences for her actions, you are simply proceeding on hope and trust and, given what you WW has done, this is a poor basis on which to attempt to R with her.


----------



## Thor

Has she had a complete panel of STD tests annd shown you the results?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shaggy

RS, yes she is very likely still having the affair.

You thought she stopped back on dday 1, but all the really changed was she stopped giving you pity sex and she began wasting time and money on the MC.

The affair continued, despite you throwing every kindness and relationship building tool you had.

Then you caught her just days ago at the bar showing her loyalty , desire and devotion to him.

All that changed was you threatened D, so she reverted back to the pity sex.

She stick hasn't come clean, she still hasn't taken the polygraph.

If I was you, I'd be nuking him at work, right after she took her polygraph test.

On the test ask her if she's been with him since dday 2, ask if she has plans to be meet up with him, ask her is she going to keep having sex with him, as her is the affair still going on.

I'd also send a note to the OM informing him that your wife has begun cheating on him with you again.


----------



## warlock07

Like someone already mentioned, your love for her did not stop after DDay1 or Dday2. Why should her love for OM stop ? He did not betray her either. After all, she chose to continue the affair even while seeing how much pain it was causing you all these 5 months. What actually changed this time ? I don't think love for you is the reason. How come she is the one crying and being consoled by you while the one that is repeatedly betrayed is you ?


----------



## Wazza

Road Scholar said:


> I'm curious as to why you feel the affair is still going on and if others on the site feel the same? She claims to have ended it....and my threat of filing made her see the light. I understand I found out about her still being in contact with him versus her telling me but is it possible she has snapped out of it when I told her I'm filing for divorce?
> 
> Also, while she probably felt like she loved him, during the affair why is it you feel she still loves him? It's sick that she was telling me she loved me during the whole 5 month period. Again says she only saw him once....can't be true right?
> 
> I appreciate the tough love but what specifically are you suggesting I do that I haven't done?


Noone knows for sure if it is still continuing. Neither do you.

Before D Day 1, did you think she was having an affair? Between D Day 1 and D Day 2, did you believe it was continuing? Two strikes, why are you confident there will not be a third?

There are some common things that are basic human nature. First, she is not being truthful. She has admitted that to you. Second, she is attracted to the OM. Why would that suddenly switch off? Why would it suddenly stop? Unless you can answer that, you have to assume she has feelings with him. Unless something happens to end contact, there will be relapses. 

So she wants to stay in an environment where she could still have contact with him. That is a danger. If you like, I can point you to other threads that are examples of this. 

Maybe she is not really sorry, and is continuing the affair more secretively. Or maybe she is sincere about ending it, but will struggle at some future time.


----------



## Wazza

Additional comment....you have a long journey in front of you. Even if she is sincere, your emotions could still end the marriage. I have seen that more than once.


----------



## azteca1986

Road Scholar said:


> She claims to have ended it....and my threat of filing made her see the light.


I think you have that the wrong way round; the _threat_ of you filing made her 'claim' she's ended it. But you heard the same story five months ago after DDay1. You haven't actually DONE anything as and far as we can see from your posts she hasn't really done anything either. Why would she 'see the light' this time round?

Has she changed her number yet? This happens in the business world each day every day. It's no big deal. Has she done it yet?

Why is she resistant to give you a timeline? Why will the next piece of information be the 'straw that breaks the camel's back'? Do you not think that these two things are inter-related? My guess is that her timeline will show the affair barely paused whilst for five months SHE put YOU through the wringer! Beggars belief what an entitled WS is capable of.

The reason I think the affair is still on-going is that she has yet to face any kind of consequence for her choices. She won't change (see the light) until she's forced to. Over to you, OP.


----------



## hopefulgirl

Thor said:


> Has she had a complete panel of STD tests annd shown you the results?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Excellent point. Since you're having sex with your wife, I hope you're using a condom. Until test results that you've SEEN prove otherwise (ask her to get written results), assume she has an STD (or two): assume the OM has been with other subordinates at work. In addition to the usual STD tests, make sure she gets a pap with an HPV test because men can't be tested for HPV - only women can be tested for that.

STD testing is one major consequence.

Another consequence for her: you need to communicate with the OM's wife (I know you've tried, but you don't know if you got through) and your wife should even help you do it. You can explain that it's not out of revenge but out of kindness to her - that if you were in her shoes, you wouldn't want to be left in the dark; it wouldn't be fair to her. In case she's been unaware of the affair all this time, you HAVE to get through to her and you can ask your wife to help in that regard. She may know where the OM's wife works or have some other idea re how you can reach her. This will also help to extinguish the lingering embers of the affair. Exposure to anybody else may not help if you intend to explore the possibility of R, but this kind of exposure is the kindest thing you can do for the OM's wife, and a major, necessary consequence for your wife (it will feel bad, because it will make her feel ashamed, and she should feel that way!).

Still a good idea to at least consult an attorney about D info and let your wife know that you need the info because D is one way this may go and R is another way but you are still in the information gathering phase. Let her know you haven't decided yet. This is another major consequence.

Let your wife know you don't trust her - that's a consequence of her affair. And getting D info is so that you will have that ready in case that's what you decide you need to do. You don't know if that's what you'll do, but in the coming weeks you will be deciding about R. That will get her thinking, and hopefully, more of the fog lifting.


----------



## Chaparral

Go to brickstone.com and buy the pen voice recorder. It works great. Put it in her purse, kiss her, pat her on the head and send her off to work.

The reason you are not following the advice here is because you prefer limbo to divorce. The problem is that the longer you delay destroying the affair the less likely your kids will grow up in your home. 

Look in your rearview mirror, what you see coming in at the edge is your marriage. Put on the brakes and turn this thing around.


----------



## harrybrown

Your wife should also help you with telling her work.


----------



## Jasel

Refuse to be played said:


> Wow. F##k a 2x4, the OP needs to get hit a whole goddamn redwood.


I was thinking train.


----------



## badmemory

Chaparral said:


> Go to *brickstone.com* and buy the pen voice recorder. It works great. Put it in her purse, kiss her, pat her on the head and send her off to work.
> 
> The reason you are not following the advice here is because you prefer limbo to divorce. The problem is that the longer you delay destroying the affair the less likely your kids will grow up in your home.
> 
> Look in your rearview mirror, what you see coming in at the edge is your marriage. Put on the brakes and turn this thing around.


Don't mean to nitpick, but it's brickhousesecurity.com


----------



## JCD

Everyone here thinks she is dragging her feet, even me. She liked what she had, and frankly, her NC letter had a strong tone of 'We will always have Paris..."

Will Kane is also correct. You are like a chess player who is sitting there, saying "I'm going to take your bishop." AND actually intend to take the bishop! Why are you telegraphing all your moves to her...and by proxy, to him?

The things you need to do here should be sudden and a surprise, not whining 'If you don't do this, I'll do that." And even then, the threat is NOT carried out...because you know that actually DOING these things will mean meaningful and abrupt changes to your previously happy circumstance.

Well, let me lay it out for you right now: your previously happy circumstance is GONE. Done. You will say "Hey, buddy, I FEEL like crap...I know things have changed." You can say that, but you are acting like the dinner table has a spilled glass of wine, not been totally upended.

This is what should have happened: you filed, demanded a HARSH NC letter, had a PI or process server give a DETAILED letter of the affair WRITTEN IN YOUR WIFE'S HAND to the OMW. You should have gotten a deposition from the wife about the affair and made her see that while the dinner table MIGHT be corrected, it will take her a LOT of effort to get the plates and cutlery back on the table.

Instead, for 5 months, you have been the one picking up all the forks off the floor. And you know it.

I get that you want to treat this as a single bobble in your marriage. AND...if after the first D-Day, she had acted as pure as the driven snow, or at least TRIED, it might have been possible.

But she wasn't. She was keeping up the affair. So she lied once about the affair...and once about ENDING the affair. So your acceptance of her word is misplaced. We all would like to trust our partner again...but she proved that she wasn't trustworthy...and you seem to be dragging your feet coming to grips with this reality.

Of course NOW she asserts that she's seen the light, she' been REDEEMED, washed in the blood, and a born again virgin just waiting to be a proper chaste and true wife. And maybe she is. 

BUT...she has given up any right to you taking her word for ANYTHING, if not for the first lie, for the second act of treachery. You should be checking everything if only to give her a sense of how low her veracity has fallen in your eyes. Excuse me..._should_ have fallen in your eyes...because you still believe everything she says.

I also am banging my head against the wall at how long you are taking with this OMW thing. This guy is doing EVERYTHING in his power to deflect any accusations you level at him. Now, IF you want to (or should I say _need_) to blow up his world, you will find it a much harder thing...and will probably need to rely on testimony from your wife...the one who was less than 2 months ago giving him sweet phone calls and having sex with him. Her feelings and allegiances cannot be taken for granted.

Now, right now, I am thinking she's dragging her feet for a lot of reasons. She thinks you are overreacting. She thinks that blowing up your life and his life for something so 'small' is childish. She happens to LIKE the place she's at (why not...she was getting validation from two men, making more money than you and had all kinds of power).

You are asking her to give all that up. Why would she want to willingly? 

You need to apply pressure...but are afraid of what her response will be. It might be to NOT give this up and leave you. Well...that is bad...but it is not the end of the world. And you'll know what is really in her heart instead of guessing.

I am not in the camp of total 'my way or the highway'. However there are a lot of REASONABLE things being asked here that she is not doing.

Why isn't she? Why aren't you insisting on it?


----------



## LongWalk

OMW exposure is a crucial step, RS.

With all the lumber flying, don't panic and don't doubt your heart. If you want reconcilation, that is great. You still need to clean up. It is possible that you can have a wife who doesn't cheat again but who fails to really go the root of her problems.

You, too, need to toughen up. I'll bet 9 out of 10 posters will agree that subconsciously your wife wants you set boundaries and not be a doormat. Even if she finds the constriction of her freedom irksome, she needs to bear a cross to remind herself of how close to the edge she came. 

One thing I have come to wonder about: WW who have children with a man and then look for fresh DNA (a bit of strange), do they feel that their husband already got an enormous part of them? By that I mean pregnancy, childbirth, bodily changes. Do they that their contribution put the BH into some sort of debt that justifies an affair?

One of the best ways to erase or spoil positive memories of the affair sex and romance, is to have unpleasant emotional consequences. For some WS, just the pain on their BS face is enough. Even a bad conscience can be enough, but for how many?

When OMW blows up you can have your wife write a letter of apology to her or meet her to take a tongue lashing and dagger eyes. That might make the lovely big O's seem like a lie. You need to make them a lie. After wars and economic scandals there needs to be an accounting. Note: all of the mortgage scandal from 2008 – and there were crimes aplenty here – led to prosecutions. Are the bankers scared now?


----------



## Road Scholar

I took a few days to think about things.

I put a VAR in place in the car so far nothing that would suggest the affair is still on. I will continue to monitor of course. I am going to install spyware on her phone this week. I have sent 4 letters to the OMW now the first two to his address, the second two last week to his neighbors address c/o her name marked private and confidential. Hopefully it will be hand delivered to HER.

MY WIFE has an interview scheduled for this week. Resumes sent out to all contacts and headhunters and assures me she is not taking this lightly at all and understands and agrees it is time to get a new job and move on.

I feel the affair is over and she is now trying as hard as she can to reconcile with me and pick up the pieces. Only time will tell if R is really possible and whether I can get over the hurt and really be with her and get back to respectable trust levels. Time will tell if she can do for me what I need and give me what I need beyond these last couple weeks. 

Anyway, it feels different this time for sure and can't stop thinking how much better it would have gone the first time (5 mos after DDay1) around if she was actually trying. I know she is hating what she did and can't stand to think about it. On occassion I will make a snide remark about this or that it immediately makes her feel like crap. Both of us actually. She mentions the self-loathing feeling she has about what she has done and I believe her. I feel she has beaten herselful up about this for some time - both during the affair and after. I also believe for self preservation as individuals, we cannot continue to beat ourselves up about bad mistakes and poor choices and still feel good about who we are. So, I think there will always be some rationalization of what happened and why - at least in her mind, deep down. In the end, she knows what she did and that there is really no good excuse. When I focus on all the lies and deception as well as the physical act of meeting this guy in hotel rooms, it sickens me to know that she could do that. When I allow us to just be together and allow myself to forget about that stuff I feel much better and close to what "normal" used to be. But those feelings come and go - good, bad, good, bad, etc. At some level, somehow she was able to keep what she was doing with him separate from what was goin on in our life. Although I'm sure it consumed her consciousness. Oddly, I know it wasn't done intentionally to hurt me but it's also clear that what she was doing was wrong and hurtful to me, to herself, to our family, and to his family.

Part of me wants to see her continue to beat herself up and feels she could do this forever to make up for what she has done. The other part of me knows that if this relationship becomes all about her feeling bad and me feeling bad all the time, then R will not be possible or desirable. We'll both just want out to stop the pain. So while I don't just want to forgive and forget and move on like nothing happend, at some point we will need to move past this in order to try staying together.

I guess I struggle with how much time do you spend talking about the affair, the details, the timeline, etc. etc. and when is it time to focus on moving forward and moving past it all? I don't want any negative consequences later from rugsweeping. I feel like we'll move forward have a couple of really good days, get along great and then I'll want to discuss something that may be interpretted by her as going backwards and focusing on the A. Is going through the details helpful in healing? I'm not talking about sex acts, etc. because I really don't think I want to know. But to me dates are important so I am able to see what else was going on in our lives while she was involved in her 2nd life. 

So how much talking about the A is helpful, constructive to move forward and how much of it is detrimental and keeping us in that place of negativity and lies, and betrayal, etc. 

She is going out of her way to be extra nice to me. Cooking great meals, being sensitive to what I want, being sweet and affectionate, etc. I have noticed a change and continue to look for actions v. words but my guard will remain up for sometime if not forever.


----------



## Shaggy

Has she thrown out all the clothes and lingerie she wore for him? Especially anything she bought during the affair?

It's a very important purging of him from her.

Also gifts from him. Especially look for any jewelry she obtained during the affair that you didn't buy her. Look for earrings and pennants/chains, and stuff that isn't cheap junk, that'll be from him.

Are you going to do the polygraph?


----------



## turnera

I suggest that you take all affair talk off the table except for one hour a week, where you can ask or say whatever you need. Spend the rest of the week trying to build a new relationship. Start with the Love Buster questionnaire and then the Emotional Needs questionnaire.


----------



## Road Scholar

Shaggy, you have given some very good advice here. Thanks. 

On the lingerie, yes she claims to have thrown it away. I haven't seen it. As far as other outfits, honestly probably not. She was buying clothes like crazy during that timeframe.

She claims that he did not buy her anything other than a nighty, which she said she threw away. I don't know all her jewelery so I cannot tell for sure. I will insist on clothing worn / purchased with him to be discarded.

I'm undecided on the polygraph to be honest. Seems like a pretty drastic measure. Why do you feel this is a necessary step? To my point on will this do more harm than good? I mean the line of questioning alone would be degrading and humiliating with another person in the room.


----------



## arbitrator

*With the already accumulated amount of evidence that you now have piled up against her, a polygraph is the absolute minimum that she should subject herself to.

But do not be at all surprised, when at the very last minute, she will bail on taking the test, citing personal emotional issues!*


----------



## warlock07

> Oddly, I know it wasn't done intentionally to hurt me but it's also clear that what she was doing was wrong and hurtful to me, to herself, to our family, and to his family.


Either you will be very lucky or we will see you again in few months...

RS, before you forgive or try to reconcile, understand the nature of an affair. It is not just having sex with someone other than your spouse. You seem to have a very superficial idea on the nature of her betrayal. 

You made a mistake after D-day1. Now you are making a different kind of a mistake. I am not saying this because you are reconciling or because of your wife's actions. Your whole attitude sounds self defeating. RememberIn the mean time, please do read as much as you can about infidelity. Or just read threads around infidelity sites like TAM. 

Good luck.


----------



## Shaggy

I think the polygraph is an important step

1. It will hopefully trigger her to finally come clean thus helping to reduce a nasty new surprise a year or two the road

2. It gives her a chance to "prove" she's told the truth.


----------



## Road Scholar

Shaggy,
Ok, good point. Get the dirtly laundry on the table now so that I can deal with it now while we are deciding what to do going forward. Also allows for her to prove her honesty to me. I think she has been less than honest with me about all the details and dates.


----------



## Wazza

warlock07 said:


> Either you will be very lucky or we will see you again in few months...
> 
> RS, before you forgive or try to reconcile, understand the nature of an affair. It is not just having sex with someone other than your spouse. You seem to have a very superficial idea on the nature of her betrayal.
> 
> You made a mistake after D-day1. Now you are making a different kind of a mistake. I am not saying this because you are reconciling or because of your wife's actions. Your whole attitude sounds self defeating. RememberIn the mean time, please do read as much as you can about infidelity. Or just read threads around infidelity sites like TAM.
> 
> Good luck.


Warlock, why do you say this?

Different affairs are different, if he does come back, I am not sure it means he has failed. 

Could you be more specific about your concerns?


----------



## Shaggy

If you intend to R, which you seem to be, turn perhaps the way to say it to her is this -

Explain that you already know she has had lots of sex with him, and that she did things with him that are hard for her to tell you.

But that your imagination and loss of trust in her, has created a situation where you frankly are assuming the absolute very worst.

You want to R, and you want to face the truth no matter how awful now, rather than the stuff you do imagine, and now rather than in 5 years.

She needs to tell the full awful truth now, let both of you deal with it, and move on.


----------



## Road Scholar

warlock07 said:


> Either you will be very lucky or we will see you again in few months...
> 
> RS, before you forgive or try to reconcile, understand the nature of an affair. It is not just having sex with someone other than your spouse. You seem to have a very superficial idea on the nature of her betrayal.
> 
> You made a mistake after D-day1. Now you are making a different kind of a mistake. I am not saying this because you are reconciling or because of your wife's actions. Your whole attitude sounds self defeating. RememberIn the mean time, please do read as much as you can about infidelity. Or just read threads around infidelity sites like TAM.
> 
> Good luck.


Warlock, also some great insight...thx. Not trying to be dense here or get smacked around with some more wood from other posters, but I think I know the nature of this ugly situtation. My wife had probably close to a year long affair - 2 mos. plus 5 mos. plus time leading up to what I have been told was the first encounter with him. She slept with him on numerous occassions and spent the night with him at least twice possibly more on trips out of town. I feel that she was "falling in love" with him or felt that she was or "loved him". Basically, she led a double life for better part of a year. GOD SICKENS ME TO EVEN TYPE THIS DOWN. 

Why do you feel I am being self-defeating or have a superficial idea about the affair? I know that I am trying to be positive and hopeful about reconciling mainly because I still lover her and don't want to break up my family, but I am also seeing positive changes in her that help bolster these feelings. 

I realize it has only been 2.5 weeks since she sent her last text to him, but she has done a 180 with how she is now acting. So I guess I am trying to focus on that. 

Are you saying that I am letting her off too easy and that it will come back and bite me? Can you be more specific please. I may still not be thinking clearly or letting other things cloud my judgement.


----------



## Wazza

Shaggy said:


> I think the polygraph is an important step
> 
> 1. It will hopefully trigger her to finally come clean thus helping to reduce a nasty new surprise a year or two the road
> 
> 2. It gives her a chance to "prove" she's told the truth.





Road Scholar said:


> Shaggy,
> Ok, good point. Get the dirtly laundry on the table now so that I can deal with it now while we are deciding what to do going forward. Also allows for her to prove her honesty to me. I think she has been less than honest with me about all the details and dates.


Red up on the accuracy of polygraphs and think about your strategy before you take this step.

I see some logic to the polygraph as a bargaining chip to force a parking lot confession


But the polygraph itself can report a person is telling the truth when they are lying, or that they are lying when telling the truth.

So, she tells you the truth, the polygraph says she is lying. Where does that leave you? There is something like a 10% to 20% chance of this outcome.


----------



## MEM2020

Road,
Only you can answer the questions below. 
1. Will insisting on full disclosure of the calendar weaken or strengthen your marriage?
2. How will it impact your respect for each other? 
3. How will it impact your commitment to each other?




Road Scholar said:


> Shaggy, you have given some very good advice here. Thanks.
> 
> On the lingerie, yes she claims to have thrown it away. I haven't seen it. As far as other outfits, honestly probably not. She was buying clothes like crazy during that timeframe.
> 
> She claims that he did not buy her anything other than a nighty, which she said she threw away. I don't know all her jewelery so I cannot tell for sure. I will insist on clothing worn / purchased with him to be discarded.
> 
> I'm undecided on the polygraph to be honest. Seems like a pretty drastic measure. Why do you feel this is a necessary step? To my point on will this do more harm than good? I mean the line of questioning alone would be degrading and humiliating with another person in the room.


----------



## MEM2020

VAR is good. 

If I were in your shoes and had a choice between options (1) and (2) below, I would choose option 2 in a nanosecond. 

1. Clarity about what she has already done (via polygraph) or
2. Extreme transparency going forward including her commitment to keep a phone (plus a fully charged spare battery) on her person at all times with location services turned on. 


OTE=Road Scholar;4733010]I took a few days to think about things.

I put a VAR in place in the car so far nothing that would suggest the affair is still on. I will continue to monitor of course. I am going to install spyware on her phone this week. I have sent 4 letters to the OMW now the first two to his address, the second two last week to his neighbors address c/o her name marked private and confidential. Hopefully it will be hand delivered to HER.

MY WIFE has an interview scheduled for this week. Resumes sent out to all contacts and headhunters and assures me she is not taking this lightly at all and understands and agrees it is time to get a new job and move on.

I feel the affair is over and she is now trying as hard as she can to reconcile with me and pick up the pieces. Only time will tell if R is really possible and whether I can get over the hurt and really be with her and get back to respectable trust levels. Time will tell if she can do for me what I need and give me what I need beyond these last couple weeks. 

Anyway, it feels different this time for sure and can't stop thinking how much better it would have gone the first time (5 mos after DDay1) around if she was actually trying. I know she is hating what she did and can't stand to think about it. On occassion I will make a snide remark about this or that it immediately makes her feel like crap. Both of us actually. She mentions the self-loathing feeling she has about what she has done and I believe her. I feel she has beaten herselful up about this for some time - both during the affair and after. I also believe for self preservation as individuals, we cannot continue to beat ourselves up about bad mistakes and poor choices and still feel good about who we are. So, I think there will always be some rationalization of what happened and why - at least in her mind, deep down. In the end, she knows what she did and that there is really no good excuse. When I focus on all the lies and deception as well as the physical act of meeting this guy in hotel rooms, it sickens me to know that she could do that. When I allow us to just be together and allow myself to forget about that stuff I feel much better and close to what "normal" used to be. But those feelings come and go - good, bad, good, bad, etc. At some level, somehow she was able to keep what she was doing with him separate from what was goin on in our life. Although I'm sure it consumed her consciousness. Oddly, I know it wasn't done intentionally to hurt me but it's also clear that what she was doing was wrong and hurtful to me, to herself, to our family, and to his family.

Part of me wants to see her continue to beat herself up and feels she could do this forever to make up for what she has done. The other part of me knows that if this relationship becomes all about her feeling bad and me feeling bad all the time, then R will not be possible or desirable. We'll both just want out to stop the pain. So while I don't just want to forgive and forget and move on like nothing happend, at some point we will need to move past this in order to try staying together.

I guess I struggle with how much time do you spend talking about the affair, the details, the timeline, etc. etc. and when is it time to focus on moving forward and moving past it all? I don't want any negative consequences later from rugsweeping. I feel like we'll move forward have a couple of really good days, get along great and then I'll want to discuss something that may be interpretted by her as going backwards and focusing on the A. Is going through the details helpful in healing? I'm not talking about sex acts, etc. because I really don't think I want to know. But to me dates are important so I am able to see what else was going on in our lives while she was involved in her 2nd life. 

So how much talking about the A is helpful, constructive to move forward and how much of it is detrimental and keeping us in that place of negativity and lies, and betrayal, etc. 

She is going out of her way to be extra nice to me. Cooking great meals, being sensitive to what I want, being sweet and affectionate, etc. I have noticed a change and continue to look for actions v. words but my guard will remain up for sometime if not forever.[/QUOTE]


----------



## Shaggy

It will be interesting when his wife gets your letter.

I wonder if you could successfully claim it isn't you and that he's been cheating with a second woman too?


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## carmen ohio

Road Scholar said:


> Shaggy,
> Ok, good point. Get the dirtly laundry on the table now so that I can deal with it now while we are deciding what to do going forward. Also allows for her to prove her honesty to me. *I think she has been less than honest with me about all the details and dates.*





Road Scholar said:


> Warlock, also some great insight...thx. Not trying to be dense here or get smacked around with some more wood from other posters, but I think I know the nature of this ugly situtation. My wife had probably close to a year long affair - 2 mos. plus 5 mos. plus time leading up to what I have been told was the first encounter with him. She slept with him on numerous occassions and spent the night with him at least twice possibly more on trips out of town. I feel that she was "falling in love" with him or felt that she was or "loved him". Basically, she led a double life for better part of a year. GOD SICKENS ME TO EVEN TYPE THIS DOWN.
> 
> Why do you feel I am being self-defeating or have a superficial idea about the affair? * I know that I am trying to be positive and hopeful about reconciling mainly because I still lover her and don't want to break up my family, but I am also seeing positive changes in her that help bolster these feelings. *
> 
> I realize it has only been 2.5 weeks since she sent her last text to him, but she has done a 180 with how she is now acting. So I guess I am trying to focus on that.
> 
> Are you saying that I am letting her off too easy and that it will come back and bite me? Can you be more specific please. I may still not be thinking clearly or letting other things cloud my judgement.


Dear Road Scholar,

I think what everyone is trying to tell you is that you are moving way too fast towards reconciliation. As your statement in the first post above indicates, you don't even have all the facts. You also don't know for sure how serious your WW is this time about doing what she needs to do to fix her marriage. She's already fooled you once and it's only been a few weeks that she's been "good." She needs to prove her commitment to you and her marriage by her actions over a significant length of time. Until she does this, you would be foolish to think that you can reconcile with her.

There is nothing wrong with beginning to think about reconciliation at this point and to start to pave the way by, for example, spending more time with her, avoiding angry outbursts and encouraging her to get IC. But it is way too soon to be "positive" about anything and, the easier you make it for her, the less likely she will learnn her lesson. Reconciliation takes _years_, not weeks or months. You don't even know if you can get over what she's done (a lot of guys can't).

Slow things down. Demand that she answer all of your questions. Give her consequences. Start to improve yourself. Become more independent. And, please, _stop_ already with the "I love her so much" way of thinking. Don't you understand that this attitude contributed to her straying in the first place (have you read _MMSLP_ yet)?

If you do the things people here are recommending, you actually improve your chances of reconciling successfully. If you don't, you risk finding yourself back on TAM in a year or two saying, "I wish I had listened."

If you really want to win your WW back, start acting like a confident guy, who values himself and who knows he has options. 

Woman like strong men. Start being strong.


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## Thorburn

Road Scholar said:


> I took a few days to think about things.
> 
> I put a VAR in place in the car so far nothing that would suggest the affair is still on. I will continue to monitor of course. I am going to install spyware on her phone this week. I have sent 4 letters to the OMW now the first two to his address, the second two last week to his neighbors address c/o her name marked private and confidential. Hopefully it will be hand delivered to HER.
> 
> MY WIFE has an interview scheduled for this week. Resumes sent out to all contacts and headhunters and assures me she is not taking this lightly at all and understands and agrees it is time to get a new job and move on.
> 
> I feel the affair is over and she is now trying as hard as she can to reconcile with me and pick up the pieces. Only time will tell if R is really possible and whether I can get over the hurt and really be with her and get back to respectable trust levels. Time will tell if she can do for me what I need and give me what I need beyond these last couple weeks.
> 
> Anyway, it feels different this time for sure and can't stop thinking how much better it would have gone the first time (5 mos after DDay1) around if she was actually trying. I know she is hating what she did and can't stand to think about it. On occassion I will make a snide remark about this or that it immediately makes her feel like crap. Both of us actually. She mentions the self-loathing feeling she has about what she has done and I believe her. I feel she has beaten herselful up about this for some time - both during the affair and after. I also believe for self preservation as individuals, we cannot continue to beat ourselves up about bad mistakes and poor choices and still feel good about who we are. So, I think there will always be some rationalization of what happened and why - at least in her mind, deep down. In the end, she knows what she did and that there is really no good excuse. When I focus on all the lies and deception as well as the physical act of meeting this guy in hotel rooms, it sickens me to know that she could do that. When I allow us to just be together and allow myself to forget about that stuff I feel much better and close to what "normal" used to be. But those feelings come and go - good, bad, good, bad, etc. At some level, somehow she was able to keep what she was doing with him separate from what was goin on in our life. Although I'm sure it consumed her consciousness. Oddly, I know it wasn't done intentionally to hurt me but it's also clear that what she was doing was wrong and hurtful to me, to herself, to our family, and to his family.
> 
> Part of me wants to see her continue to beat herself up and feels she could do this forever to make up for what she has done. The other part of me knows that if this relationship becomes all about her feeling bad and me feeling bad all the time, then R will not be possible or desirable. We'll both just want out to stop the pain. So while I don't just want to forgive and forget and move on like nothing happend, at some point we will need to move past this in order to try staying together.
> 
> I guess I struggle with how much time do you spend talking about the affair, the details, the timeline, etc. etc. and when is it time to focus on moving forward and moving past it all? I don't want any negative consequences later from rugsweeping. I feel like we'll move forward have a couple of really good days, get along great and then I'll want to discuss something that may be interpretted by her as going backwards and focusing on the A. Is going through the details helpful in healing? I'm not talking about sex acts, etc. because I really don't think I want to know. But to me dates are important so I am able to see what else was going on in our lives while she was involved in her 2nd life.
> 
> So how much talking about the A is helpful, constructive to move forward and how much of it is detrimental and keeping us in that place of negativity and lies, and betrayal, etc.
> 
> She is going out of her way to be extra nice to me. Cooking great meals, being sensitive to what I want, being sweet and affectionate, etc. I have noticed a change and continue to look for actions v. words but my guard will remain up for sometime if not forever.


I can only speak for myself. My last d-day was Feb. 6 2013. My wife finally confessed and repented at the end of April, early May. She answered some questions this weekend. I don't ask much. I don't bring up the A much at all. She (even with her new illness) is giving all she can. And honestly I am as well. It is not fun all the time. I trigger, hel* I ended up in the E.R. on Friday due to this crap.

Sounds like you two are on your way. All I can say is it stinks to think of what they have done to us. Yes the WS need to do the heavy lifting but we need to come alongside them and help at some point and let them know that their efforts are worth it.

Love can overcome the pain.


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## Ovid

I think you are moving toward R way to fast. You need to consider that a lot of the way you are responding is due to the shock of the second D-day. I'm not saying don't R, but I am saying you should slow down. Don't box yourself in yet. 

You can't go back to the old marriage. You need to build a new marriage for it to work out. Right now should be the dating and reestablishment phase. You need to get to know each other again, and build from the ground up.


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## harrybrown

It will help you to have her give you a diary and timeline of the affair.

You do need to know the details of the affair.

You do not have all of the puzzle. She gave you a false R before, and only with consequences has she even started to try.

Get the written timeline to know if she is even in your camp or still in the protective mode for the OM.


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## Ovid

She was involved with OM for a year. Don't expect her to be "over" him in an instant.


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## Want2babettrme

Road Scholar said:


> Warlock, also some great insight...thx. Not trying to be dense here or get smacked around with some more wood from other posters, but I think I know the nature of this ugly situtation. My wife had probably close to a year long affair - 2 mos. plus 5 mos. plus time leading up to what I have been told was the first encounter with him. She slept with him on numerous occassions and spent the night with him at least twice possibly more on trips out of town. I feel that she was "falling in love" with him or felt that she was or "loved him". Basically, she led a double life for better part of a year. GOD SICKENS ME TO EVEN TYPE THIS DOWN.
> 
> Why do you feel I am being self-defeating or have a superficial idea about the affair? I know that I am trying to be positive and hopeful about reconciling mainly because I still lover her and don't want to break up my family, but I am also seeing positive changes in her that help bolster these feelings.
> 
> I realize it has only been 2.5 weeks since she sent her last text to him, but she has done a 180 with how she is now acting. So I guess I am trying to focus on that.
> 
> Are you saying that I am letting her off too easy and that it will come back and bite me? Can you be more specific please. I may still not be thinking clearly or letting other things cloud my judgement.


Reading this makes me feel so bad for you RS. Just sick to my stomach. So sorry for you.


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## carmen ohio

Road Scholar,

If you haven't already, you should read this thread:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...eelings-changed-after-things-settle-down.html

It will give you some keen insights into what you are facing if you decide to reconcile with your WW.


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## Thor

Road Scholar said:


> I'm undecided on the polygraph to be honest. Seems like a pretty drastic measure. Why do you feel this is a necessary step? To my point on will this do more harm than good? I mean the line of questioning alone would be degrading and humiliating with another person in the room.


From my perspective, if there was something I could do to ensure my wife was freed of some doubts or worries, I would want to do it. Those doubts and worries will make recovery impossible, and will make the future relationship less than it should be.

So, I think a good way to approach this with her is not to do this as a punitive thing, and not to make it out that you still think she is lying about tons of things. Rather, this is a way for you to find certainty and to be able to put the doubts to bed.


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## Thor

Road Scholar said:


> Are you saying that I am letting her off too easy and that it will come back and bite me? Can you be more specific please. I may still not be thinking clearly or letting other things cloud my judgement.


When a criminal is sentenced to 10 years, but then is paroled in 14 months, he feels like he won. He feels that he got one over on The Man.

The same kind of psychology could play out with your wife. She feels terrible for what she did, but then sees you apparently don't feel as terrible about it as she does. If you do the hard work, she won't have to. And she won't value the result of the hard work you do.


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## Lovemytruck

Road Scholar said:


> Warlock, also some great insight...thx. Not trying to be dense here or get smacked around with some more wood from other posters, but I think I know the nature of this ugly situtation. My wife had probably close to a year long affair - 2 mos. plus 5 mos. plus time leading up to what I have been told was the first encounter with him. She slept with him on numerous occassions and spent the night with him at least twice possibly more on trips out of town. I feel that she was "falling in love" with him or felt that she was or "loved him". Basically, she led a double life for better part of a year. GOD SICKENS ME TO EVEN TYPE THIS DOWN.
> 
> Why do you feel I am being self-defeating or have a superficial idea about the affair? I know that I am trying to be positive and hopeful about reconciling mainly because I still lover her and don't want to break up my family, but I am also seeing positive changes in her that help bolster these feelings.
> 
> I realize it has only been 2.5 weeks since she sent her last text to him, but she has done a 180 with how she is now acting. So I guess I am trying to focus on that.
> 
> Are you saying that I am letting her off too easy and that it will come back and bite me? Can you be more specific please. I may still not be thinking clearly or letting other things cloud my judgement.


RS,

I wish we could give you the exact words to fix this. It is a broken mess, and my heart aches for your pain. Been there.

The quote above sounds much like something I would have written at the 2.5 week post d-day mark. You are trying to be strong, and move in a positive direction.

I also think that you and I (at that same point) are/were suffering in the state of denial. You are wondering what the Hell happened, why me, and now what.

R is not a thing you can jump into. You want to fix it by moving full speed into R. It will probably cause her to think that her actions were not that big of a deal, and it will make you bury things that will re-surface in a few months.

My hope would be that you back off of the R, and move to becoming more independent. She needs to have fear and remorse in order to R. She won't have those until she knows she has destroyed your marriage.

You and me would have been better served to take a long time to go through all of the grief stages before we tried to R. I would say that a regret of mine is that I was too forgiving too quickly. My trade-off was later when I realized she was full of crap, and D was a no-brainer. Lol!

Good luck my friend. Please keep us posted.


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## Road Scholar

Lovemytruck said:


> RS,
> 
> I wish we could give you the exact words to fix this. It is a broken mess, and my heart aches for your pain. Been there.
> 
> The quote above sounds much like something I would have written at the 2.5 week post d-day mark. You are trying to be strong, and move in a positive direction.
> 
> I also think that you and I (at that same point) are/were suffering in the state of denial. You are wondering what the Hell happened, why me, and now what.
> 
> R is not a thing you can jump into. You want to fix it by moving full speed into R. It will probably cause her to think that her actions were not that big of a deal, and it will make you bury things that will re-surface in a few months.
> 
> My hope would be that you back off of the R, and move to becoming more independent. She needs to have fear and remorse in order to R. She won't have those until she knows she has destroyed your marriage.
> 
> You and me would have been better served to take a long time to go through all of the grief stages before we tried to R. I would say that a regret of mine is that I was too forgiving too quickly. My trade-off was later when I realized she was full of crap, and D was a no-brainer. Lol!
> 
> Good luck my friend. Please keep us posted.


Love my Truck....the 2.5 weeks marks my DDay 2 after a false R and going through IC and MC for nearly 5 months. I'm still coming to terms with what that means and what really happened during the 5 months she claimed we were "trying to figure things out". She claims they did not talk/text all the time and she admits to being with him just once physically during that time. I have a hard time believing that is true and need to know the truth. I feel she was maybe pulling away from him during that time and her feelings lessened for him during that time but I think it was probably still fairly an intense game for her. So I kinda know she is/was full of crap, but I'm also thinking she made a terrible mistake and is begining to realize that now.

From an outsider looking in, it's easy to say run away, don't walk and certainly don't stay with this woman. that would have been my advise to someone in my shoes....BUT, I have 2 great kids to think about and still wonder if the M can be salvaged. She doesn't deserve another chance but my kids do. She certainly was begging me for another chance 2 weeks ago. Some may think that's a cop out and maybe to some extent it is, but I don't want to hurt my kids who are very sensitive and I am extremely close to them.

But I agree with what people here are saying. She needs to do the heavy work this time around and earn it. I need more truth and I need for her to want help heal me. I can't make it too easy or it will be taken for granted. I get it. I can't let what I want get in the way of what needs to happen.


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## Lovemytruck

Thanks for catching me up. Guess I should have read your previous posts before posting.

I am all for a happy ending, especially when there are children.

Probably the reason some of us are telling you to move on, is because we exhausted ourselves working through our own false Rs.

Please know that I want you to recover, and be happy. Do what you need to do in order for that to happen.


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## Shaggy

Given the 5 month false R, I suggest that you plan, but do not tell her, that you will have her take a second polygraph in 8-12 months to validate no contact.


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## illwill

Assume your marriage is dead and it's on her to prove you should bring it back to life. Your version if being optimistic is actually rugsweeping. And you are letting her off too easy. The consequences for her affair must be worse than the thrill of it was. It's not about punishment. It's about seeing if she is willing to take her medicine, without resentment. It could be a good indicator that she has humbled herself and now sees the damage she did. This would make her a safer bet for reconciliation. 
And cheap forgiveness has no value.


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## hopefulgirl

Road Scholar said:


> I guess I struggle with how much time do you spend talking about the affair, the details, the timeline, etc. etc. and when is it time to focus on moving forward and moving past it all? I don't want any negative consequences later from rugsweeping. I feel like we'll move forward have a couple of really good days, get along great and then I'll want to discuss something that may be interpretted by her as going backwards and focusing on the A. Is going through the details helpful in healing? I'm not talking about sex acts, etc. because I really don't think I want to know. But to me dates are important so I am able to see what else was going on in our lives while she was involved in her 2nd life.
> 
> So how much talking about the A is helpful, constructive to move forward and how much of it is detrimental and keeping us in that place of negativity and lies, and betrayal, etc.
> 
> She is going out of her way to be extra nice to me. Cooking great meals, being sensitive to what I want, being sweet and affectionate, etc. I have noticed a change and continue to look for actions v. words but my guard will remain up for sometime if not forever.


You may have questions/things you need to say about the affair for the next couple years or more. You can't bottle it up inside or you'll go nuts. But you can't talk about it all the time either - you need to "repair the couple" as Shirley Glass puts it if there is to be any hope of R. You may want to declare one or two days every week to be an "affair free zone" and hold off on discussing it on that day or days.

If you both read How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair you'll both learn how important it is for her to understand that this is going to be prominent in your mind for a long time, and you will not just "get over it," and she cannot expect you to just "move forward" and not think or talk about it. Any WS who hopes or expects that doesn't "get it." Reading that book, which I highly recommend, will help her to get it.

Dates are important to almost all BS's - that timeline is really necessary to help us put the pieces of the puzzle together. Sex details are important to only some BS's. If your gut tells you that hearing sex details will only hurt you, trust your gut - you can't "un-hear" that stuff, and it may just add to the tons of unpleasant stuff that's already in your head.

Your trust in her will be very low for some time, and if you move into R, with luck and hard work on her part, it will grow but will never be at the level it was. Sadly, we can never trust our spouses as much as we did before their affairs. But it can be a lot better than it is now.


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## Will_Kane

Road Scholar said:


> to me dates are important so I am able to see what else was going on in our lives while she was involved in her 2nd life.


Yes, dates were important to me, also. They are important to all of us.

*Why has she not written you the timeline?*

In another post today you stated that you feel she still is holding back the details, the full extent of how long and how deep. You need to know, or you always will wonder. When did it start, when did it end, and where and when were they hooking, the time frame and the frequency. This is basic information we all need to understand the affair in our own mind, to come to terms with it, and be able to move past it. Without the truth, you NEVER get past it.

*Why does she get to know all of the dates and times, and you don't?* Who has done who wrong here? Who is begging who for forgiveness?

She treated you horribly. She denied you sex and gave it freely to other man, all the time lying to you. AND SHE STILL HASN'T TOLD YOU A STORY THAT MAKES SENSE TO YOU - SHE STILL HASN'T TOLD YOU THE TRUTH. And yet here you are, afraid you are going to hurt her tender feelings? No one likes a dupe, and no one likes a doormat who smiles as you are lying to them. *There can be no respect from your wife if you don't DEMAND the truth from her.* 

She is testing you, whether she consciously knows it or not or whether you consciously know it or not, just like your kids test you to know how much they can get away with. That analogy obviously doesn't work on all levels, but it is true about the timeline, which represents telling the whole truth about the affair. Your kids need to know that you won't allow them to lie to you and get away with it, they respect you more for it, and so will your wife. She needs to know that when you say you need a timeline and the truth, you mean what you say.

These are the concrete actions that count:

1. Leave the job
2. Timeline (with dates/details that make sense)
3. You tell other man's wife
4. Polygraph
5. STD tests?

She has done ZERO of these important actions.

*Cooking you dinner and being nice to you is bullsh1t*. Having sex with you. *That's how a normal wife is supposed to act*. Try not to get too thrilled over it.

Road, I'm not trying to be mean, but it is so obvious to all of us. I've been on this forum for a long time, and just about everyone posting on this thread is pro-reconciliation. But if you sweep this under the rug, you will be back here in a year, and you will be saying, "it was a year ago, can I really make her write a timeline and take a polygraph now?" You need the truth. And she must leave that job.

You came here a few weeks ago without a clue that your wife was still in the affair and we all recognized that she was immediately. She lied to you about not having had sex since D-day 1, and we all immediately knew that was a lie. So why won't you believe us now? We won't steer you wrong. We are trying to help you reconcile.

No reconciliation truly starts until she is out of that job and you have the truth. That much has been proven over and over again on these threads. YOU DESERVE THE TRUTH.


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## Will_Kane

This is an old letter, originally written by a man named Joseph on a different message board:

_Dear Wife, 

I know you are feeling the pain of guilt and confusion. I understand that you wish all this never happened and that you wish it would just go away. I can even believe that you truly love me and that your indiscretion hurts you emotionally much the same way it hurts me. I understand your apprehension to me discovering little by little, everything that led up to your indiscretion, everything that happened that night, and everything that happened afterwards. I understand. No one wants to have a mistake or misjudgment thrown in his or her face repeatedly. 

No one wants to be forced to 'look' at the thing that caused all their pain over and over again. I can actually see, that through your eyes, you are viewing this whole thing as something that just needs to go away, something that is over, that he/she doesn’t mean anything to you, so why is it such a big issue? I can understand you wondering why I torture myself with this continuously, and thinking, doesn’t he/she know by now that I love him/her? I can see how you can feel this way and how frustrating it must be. But for the remainder of this letter I’m going to ask you to view my reality through my eyes. 

*You were there. There is no detail left out from your point of view. Like a puzzle, you have all the pieces and you are able to reconstruct them and be able to understand the whole picture, the whole message, or the whole meaning. You know exactly what that picture is and what it means to you and if it can effect your life and whether or not it continues to stir your feelings. You have the pieces, the tools, and the knowledge. 

You can move through your life with 100% of the picture you compiled. If you have any doubts, then at least you’re carrying all the information in your mind and you can use it to derive conclusions or answers to your doubts or question. You carry all the 'STUFF' to figure out OUR reality. There isn’t really any information, or pieces to the puzzle that you don’t have. 

Now let’s enter my reality. Let’s both agree that this affects our lives equally. The outcome no matter what it is well affect us both. Our future and our present circumstances are every bit as important to me as it is to you. So, why then is it okay for me to be left in the dark? Do I not deserve to know as much about the night that nearly destroyed our relationship as you do? Just like you, I am also able to discern the meaning of certain particulars and innuendoes of that night and just like you, I deserve to be given the opportunity to understand what nearly brought our relationship down. *

To assume that I can move forward and accept everything at face value is unrealistic and unless we stop thinking unrealistically I doubt our lives well ever 'feel' complete. You have given me a puzzle. It is a 1000 piece puzzle and 400 random pieces are missing. You expect me to assemble the puzzle without the benefit of looking at the picture on the box. You expect me to be able to discern what I am looking at and to appreciate it in the same context as you. You want me to be as comfortable with what I see in the picture as you are. 

When I ask if there was a tree in such and such area of the picture you tell me don’t worry about it, it’s not important. When I ask whether there were any animals in my puzzle you say don’t worry about it, it’s not important. When I ask if there was a lake in that big empty spot in my puzzle you say, what’s the difference, it’s not important. 

Then later when I’m expected to understand the picture in my puzzle you fail to understand my disorientation and confusion. You expect me to feel the same way about the picture as you do but deny me the same view as you. When I express this problem you feel compelled to admonish me for not understanding it, for not seeing it the way you see it. 

You wonder why I can’t just accept whatever you chose to describe to me about the picture and then be able to feel the same way you feel about it. 

So, you want me to be okay with everything. You think you deserve to know and I deserve to wonder. You may honestly feel that the whole picture, everything that happened is insignificant because in your heart you know it was a mistake and wish it never happened. But how can I know that? Faith? Because you told me so? Would you have faith if the tables were turned? Don’t you understand that I want to believe you completely? But how can I? I can never know what is truly in your mind and heart. 

I can only observe you actions, and what information I have acquired and slowly, over time rebuild my faith in your feelings. I truly wish it were easier. 

So, there it is, as best as I can put it. That is why I ask questions. That is where my need to know is derived from. And that is why it is unfair for you to think that we can effectively move forward and unfair for you to accuse me of dwelling on the past. My need to know stems from my desire to hold our world together. 

It doesn’t come from jealousy, it doesn’t come from spitefulness, and it doesn’t come from a desire to make you suffer. It comes from the fact that I love you. Why else would I put myself through this? Wouldn’t it be easier for me to walk away? Wouldn’t it be easier to consider our relationship a bad mistake in my life and to move on to better horizons? Of course it would, but I can’t and the reason I can’t is because I love you and that reason in itself makes all the difference in the world. 

Signed,

Joseph_


----------



## Wazza

RS, what do you think reconciliation looks like? 

I wonder if you thik you can put all this behind you, and things will be as they were before. I don't know anyone who has achieved that.

That is not necessarily all doom and gloom. My marriage is the best it's ever been. But I will never have total trust in my wife again, never totally rely on her for emotional security. I will always know what she did. I will always know that it was done behind my back, and then when I discovered it, dishonestly and directly against my objections. That can never be undone.

At the time of the affair, I gave up on getting the truth. I stayed for the kids. Over time we rebuilt. A year or so we revisited things, and she still lied. Well, I could have pressed the point, but decided not to. I believe her reason for continuing to lie is a combination of shame and worry that I might not handle the truth. The net result though, is that I will always know she lied and would not come clean. There will always be doubt.

Knowing how that feels, I would strongly advise you to insist on the truth now, before you reconcile. And I would look for ways to independently confirm what she says.


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## LongWalk

Road Scholar said:


> I found out about her affair on 5.1.13. Crushed me. Still does. Married 14 years with two amazing kids I adore. Love my wife. Love my life. Want to work it out. Been doing the Mort Fertel put love first approach. After initial rage I've been trying to keep things cool but not doing a great job with my emotions. Not huge outbursts or anything like that just my tact of question focused on the affair which pust the mood very negative v. positive. My wife says she wants to work it out and try to see if we can have the relationship we both want. Claims to have been unhappy over the years and focuses on all the bad stuff. I admit to not being perfect and to have definitely contributed to a disfunctional marriage looking back on it but at the time I thought things were "ok". I'm sure this is a familiar story. I think we're both trying. Doing joint counseling and we were both doing individual as well but stopped recently as it's just so exhausting and life is demanding with work and kids activities. Very draining. We are mildly affectionate. *We cuddle in bed. We kiss but not passionately anymore. She stops it from going anywhere. Bottom line no sex in nearly 5 months even though we were still having sex during her 2 month affair (as far as I know).* I haven't pressed for many details but I know enough. I know his name and where he lives. they worked together. I sometimes think about blowing up his life like he did to mine but sent him a text as soon as I found out and told him if he ever spoke to my wife again I would do just that. no evidence he hasn't complied. *the no sex thing is killing me.* I'm here trying to work **** out and she needs to feel closer to me to have sex with me. Her husband (mostly good) of 14 years and together for about 20. *Says she's not feeling it. Struggling with how she feels about me and doesn't feel close to me.* I'm trying to be patient and give her time and let her work through this and "put love first" build positive momentum and allow her infatuation with him pass. But any advise or suggestions? I don't believe the affair has started back up and he lives out of town but the no sex thing makes me wonder WTF. She is obviously not willing to take one for the team and *it's always sorta been this way.* I always want it more and she holds all the cards. Feeling rejected again as before and trying to save my marriage for my family, me, and kids - if it can be salvaged but I feel like I need more from her.


How could this change?


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## LongWalk

Did you ever expose to OMW?

Make sure you get the time line.


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## turnera

> Says she's not feeling it. Struggling with how she feels about me and doesn't feel close to me.


At this point, you staying is merely proving to her that she doesn't need to do anything to keep you, that you are so needy that she can live like roommates (and probably look for other men on the side) with you and you'll accept those crumbs. 

If you can't just say 'I need more than this, if you're not feeling it, I'll help you move out' then you may as well just give up expecting anything else out of life.


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## Thor

I don't think I can express this as well as I would like to, but here goes.

Your emphasis should be on you, not her. You seem to be the one fighting for the marriage and the family, not her. You seem to be the one worrying about the kids, not her. You seem to be the one who values marriage generically.

Yet, you are concentrating on whether she is happy, engaged, committed, or attracted to you. There is a big disconnect here. Why are you worried about what she says? How about worrying about whether you are happy, whether you are getting your needs met, and whether you are attracted to her?

I think you are making the same error which many make, including me. You value marriage and family, so you make it your goal to save the marriage. Yet you forget to evaluate whether this person is the one you want to be married to. You forget to evaluate whether she is willing and capable of meeting your needs for the long run. 

You put your emphasis on 1) family/marriage, and 2) her thoughts and words. You completely miss out on 3) your needs and desires.


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## workindad

If you want different results. Then you need to act differently.
Try making her work for it. 

Good luck
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Road Scholar

turnera said:


> At this point, you staying is merely proving to her that she doesn't need to do anything to keep you, that you are so needy that she can live like roommates (and probably look for other men on the side) with you and you'll accept those crumbs.
> 
> If you can't just say 'I need more than this, if you're not feeling it, I'll help you move out' then you may as well just give up expecting anything else out of life.


Turnera, This was from my initial post when I was wondering why my wife did not want to have sex with me. Since DDay2 when I found out she was still in contact with him, everything has changed since I basically told her I planned to file for D. She was literally begging and pleading for a second chance the next day. We are having sex again which started almost immediately after I found out they were still talking. A few days later I found out she was with him "once" during that time. We went away for a long weekend that I had planned several weeks prior for our anniversary. We've been going from there trying to rebuild, I guess. 

I brought up some stuff last night about not getting her timeline yet and not buying the book that I had asked her to buy and that I was frustrated and annoyed by this. How to Heal your Partner - or something along those lines which was mention on TAM. I purchased all the other books suggested here already and had them shipped and delivered to me. She wants to see if she can get it from the library...and has been focused on job search, resume, networking, etc. Which TRUTHFULLY she has and is not easy and time consuming given all else we have going on in our world and kid's world. BUT, seriously it takes 5 minutes to buy the book on Amazon and have it shipped. She knows this and is the queen of online/in-store shopping. I did it and I am not the Amazon shopper she is.

Anyhow, I was feeling sorta crappy and told her I was disappointed and annoyed that she hasn't done the two things I asked - Book and Timeline. She started questioning why I need a timeline that it won't help me and it only keeps us focused on the past not our future and she cannot change the past. She tells me I know the truth already. I feel like I know maybe 75% of the truth. She has told me alot, but still feel like not everything. She was sobbing and in tears, beating herself up again and both were feeling pretty crappy about things. Things got a little heated at times. Tried blameshifting a couple times about how we both screwed up - I shut that down immediately. We both own the marital problems. She took it outside the marriage. I've learned that much. Initially I was blaming myself after DDay1 and went about everything completely wrong, hence DDay2. But I have learned a little thanks to this site. I'm not sure I will every get 100% of the truth as one poster said, so how close is enough? The physical acts, the # of times, the frequency, locations, intensity, the feelings. ALL BAD. By finding out more I will find out more versions of what I already know. I don't know that it will help me one way or another to be honest. What will help me is knowing she has true remorse and it would never happen again.  If part of finding that out is forcing a timeline out of her, to see what she can endure, then I guess I'm in favor of getting it. I know facing what she did and documenting it will be a very painful process for her because it forces her to think about what she did not only with him, but to our family and all the lies and deception. It would probably be good for her in the end, but I'm sure she is afraid I will decide that I'm out if I know everything.

I saw the letter that was posted earlier, I think I will try that approach. I know it's hard for her thinking that we were moving to a good place only to have the rug yanked from under her feet with my questioning her, but honestly it feels right. It has felt at times like she has gotten too comfortable and that things were moving ahead smoothly. It's been 2.5 weeks since she sent the text, "Greygoose and soda. Alone at the bar. Wish you were here." I told her I don't know how she is going to feel in 2 weeks or 3 weeks from now. She has asked me can't you see a change, doesn't it feel different? I said yes, for 2.5 weeks it has. Try it for 5 months. 

Anyhow, I still want to be able to R but it's still a pretty fresh wound, but healing faster the 2nd time around. Or maybe its just part II of the same sh*t show. I told her that I didn't want to lose her at some point over the last 2 weeks, which she asked me to remember last night after our "talk". 

The kids are a big part of the equation. It would be easier to move on if not for my strong desire not to hurt them and my responsibility for their well being. If the home situation got to the point that it was no longer a good place for them to be with us constantly going at it, I think I would know that too. I don't think we are there yet and there is still love between us both. I want a solid base for a new foundation to be built on. I guess I want the truth so we can move forward.


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## hopefulgirl

How to Help Your Partner Heal From Your Affair by MacDonald is a book that she needs to have at home (not check out from the library). She needs to KEEP it because she needs to study it and you will want to read it too, because you may want to highlight parts of it for her to read and re-read. You'll both learn a lot from it - it's SUCH an easy read. Short book, too. But packed with PRACTICAL info about what she needs to understand and what she needs to start doing ASAP.


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## azteca1986

Road Scholar said:


> She started questioning why I need a timeline that it won't help me and it only keeps us focused on the past not our future and she cannot change the past. *She tells me I know the truth already.*


If this bit were true...



> It would probably be good for her in the end, but I'm sure *she is afraid I will decide that I'm out if I know everything.*


... she has nothing to worry about. You're right to insist on the timeline. It's helps you know just what you are supposed to be forgiving and makes her confront the extent of her betrayal. Both are necessary for a successful R.

I agree the letter is an excellent way to help her see why you deserve an accurate timeline. Good luck going forward.


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## bandit.45

The value of the timeline and completely transparency is this: 

You need to know all and everything they did together , because I guarantee she is maybe giving you 50% of all the things she did for him, sexually and otherwise. You need to make her understand that you need her to go 120% above and beyond what she did for him. If she cannot, if she won't, then she simply doesn't value you as much as him. 

Sex is just sex. You can pay any wh0re off the street to give you what your wife is giving you and more. It's the quality of the loving that you are demanding. If she's going through the motions without the feeling, then all she is saying to you is rugsweeping garbage. She wants you to drink her cool aide. 

Timeline and transparency or 180 and lawyer.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lovemytruck

Will_Kane said:


> *She is testing you, whether she consciously knows it or not or whether you consciously know it or not, just like your kids test you to know how much they can get away with.* These are the concrete actions that count:
> 
> 1. Leave the job
> 2. Timeline (with dates/details that make sense)
> 3. You tell other man's wife
> 4. Polygraph
> 5. STD tests?
> 
> She has done ZERO of these important actions.
> 
> *Cooking you dinner and being nice to you is bullsh1t*. Having sex with you. *That's how a normal wife is supposed to act*. Try not to get too thrilled over it.
> 
> Road, I'm not trying to be mean, but it is so obvious to all of us. I've been on this forum for a long time, and just about everyone posting on this thread is pro-reconciliation. But if you sweep this under the rug, you will be back here in a year, and you will be saying, "it was a year ago, can I really make her write a timeline and take a polygraph now?" You need the truth. And she must leave that job.
> 
> You came here a few weeks ago without a clue that your wife was still in the affair and we all recognized that she was immediately. She lied to you about not having had sex since D-day 1, and we all immediately knew that was a lie. *So why won't you believe us now?  We won't steer you wrong. We are trying to help you reconcile.*No reconciliation truly starts until she is out of that job and you have the truth. That much has been proven over and over again on these threads. YOU DESERVE THE TRUTH.


:iagree:

I just re-read your post from today. Not to be rude, but it seems that your are in a fog. You are allowing her to play by her own rules.

The part about getting your books at the library SCREAM of her feeling that you are not worth buying it. Let me guess, she is in charge of the money in your home.

I think you frustrate me and others because we probably made some of the same mistakes you are currently making. The story is like an infected wound that you refuse to drain. It might hurt now, but as it festers it will continue to get worse.

Will Kane said it. We all want to help you in your effort to R, but beyond the R, we want to help you recover.

My MC told be at the 8 month mark that I should have "righteous indignation." He compared the action to Jesus clearing the temple. I don't know or care if you are religious, but I hope you get the point.

CLEAR THE TEMPLE. It will be for your own good. Then you can heal, and work on a R with a fresh start.


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## badmemory

Road Scholar said:


> If part of finding that out is forcing a timeline out of her, to see what she can endure, then I guess I'm in favor of getting it. I know facing what she did and documenting it will be a very painful process for her because it forces her to think about what she did not only with him, but to our family and all the lies and deception. It would probably be good for her in the end, but I'm sure she is afraid I will decide that I'm out if I know everything.


RS,

If you R with your wife, you don't want to look back some day and regret that you didn't give and she didn't accept all of the deserved consequences for her actions. That you didn't test her remorse enough. Trust me, I know this from experience.

This timeline is a reasonable request. If it hurts her feelings or makes her feel vulnerable, that's too bad. It doesn't matter her reasons for not wanting to do it or your reasons for wanting it; it only matters that you asked her to do it; and so far, she has refused.


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## bandit.45

Your wife hurt your kids, not you. Quit using them as an excuse to not do what you need to do to motivate your wife to work on her marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thorburn

*She started questioning why I need a timeline that it won't help me and it only keeps us focused on the past not our future and she cannot change the past. She tells me I know the truth already.*

Since Dday 1 in Nov. 2011 I kept bringing up two particular dates that I had proof that my wife and the XOM were together. My wife would only admit to 4 times and that they were together 5 times with the last time being the day I busted them. I had proof of them having sex 6 times. The 7th time they were together is when my son and I busted them. I suspected 8 times that they had sex but I could not prove those dates and did not press her for those dates. 

When my wife came clean in late April early May of this year, she told me everything and said that they had sex 8 times in 2011. She said the two dates I kept bugging her about were in fact dates that they were together and in addition there were two other times and she gave me those dates and they matched up with the ones I suspected but had no hard proof.

I said all this to say, that when a WS is truely remorseful, they will look at you and give you what you want and need. I am not saying they won't hesitate a little bit, mine did, and said if I tell you then you will be hurt, I said, hurt me and tell me. My wife did. I am suspicious whenever a WS tells you that you need to move forward and not go over the past. Mine did for over a year, and it was a false R. It was hel*. 

Since my wife repented and came clean I still ask her questions from time to time, (I did ask one question this weekend), and she answers them. Then gives me a hug and a kiss saying she is sorry for what she did.

This is still way too fresh for you to be moving on and I would tell her. Yes the WS has feelings and they do want to move forward but that takes time and right now she needs to feel the heat (so to speak).


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## harrybrown

She had you in a false R for 5 months. 

She has done wonderful things for the AP. 

She has not given you the timeline in writing.

You are still in a FALSE R. She does more for the AP than for you,
and she is still not doing any heavy lifting.

You have received good advice about several things she should be doing. Actions speak now. She has lied to you in the past. It was easy. She is still lying to you and she is not showing that she respects you at all. Does she need the divorce filed to give you the timeline? Ask her when will her actions show that she cares more about you than the POSOM? She is doing nothing and she did all those wonderful things for the POSOM? 

She does not love you or her actions and remorse would show up in her actions.


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## Thor

Road Scholar said:


> She started questioning why I need a timeline that it won't help me and it only keeps us focused on the past not our future and she cannot change the past. She tells me I know the truth already.


She doesn't get to define what will help you or what you need/want.

The whole thing about moving forward and not focusing on the past is a common tactic when there is something she does not want to be discovered.

If you already know the truth then it should be simple for her to give you a detailed timeline. There isn't much to tell according to what you currently know.

Someone who is determined to make amends for their transgressions would be cooperative despite the difficulty of the task.


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## illwill

She won't even invest in books to save this marriage? Are you really unaware of what's happening here? I'm not sure if it's been asked yet. So forgive me if it has. Are you, or have you been, in therapy? I don't want to be rude. There seems to be more going on here than just denial.


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## Road Scholar

illwill said:


> She won't even invest in books to save this marriage? Are you really unaware of what's happening here? I'm not sure if it's been asked yet. So forgive me if it has. Are you, or have you been, in therapy? I don't want to be rude. There seems to be more going on here than just denial.



Never been in therapy until 5 months ago. Never felt like I needed it until 5 mos ago. I get the point. Buy the book. Write the timeline if you want to move forward and if you want to save the marriage. Not really asking that much given her crimes against me. Thanks.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## azteca1986

Road Scholar said:


> Never been in therapy until 5 months ago. Never felt like I needed it until 5 mos ago. I get the point. Buy the book. Write the timeline if you want to move forward and if you want to save the marriage. *Not really asking that much given her crimes against me.* Thanks.


That should read - Crimes against me, our marriage and our children. All HER choices.


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## illwill

Nothing wrong with therapy. I went during my divorce. We all need help sometimes.


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## Shaggy

Her not doing the timeline lets her keep her time with him private, safe, and precious.

It permits her to be loyal to him, to not reveal his secrets to you, and for her to be worthy of his trust.

It keeps the places, times, and things they did no just in bed, but on dates safe from you and for them only.

Wouldn't you want to know if you are checking into the same hotel they used for sex ? Wouldn't you want to know if you are at dinner or a place if they met there together on dates?

Wouldn't you want to know if she's started wearing her hair like he likes it, or ordering his favorite meal, or drinking the drink he recommended for her?

See it's about knowing the affair history inside and out, so you can deal with it now, and so you can steer clear of it later.

This isn't an old before you relationship that she gets to keep safe and tucked away, this is an adulterous sexual affair with an executive at her company. She lied, betrayed and was unfaithful to you for at least a year.

It needs to be faced, dissected and destroyed.


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## ShootMePlz!

I think one of the fears of doing a timeline(in written form) is that there is now a permanent record of all of their dirty activities. 

If the marriage doesn't survive then you have a written record of her affair sex acts, locations, amounts etc that can be shown to everyone. 

As a BS I personally don't care if it bothers them that I would have a nuclear weapon of sorts to show our kids one day but I understand why the WS would be very scared to give a written timeline even if they have verbally given all there is about the cheating.


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## BWBill

_The kids are a big part of the equation. It would be easier to move on if not for my strong desire not to hurt them and my responsibility for their well being._

Have you told her you be gone if not for the children?

She should know that. It empowers her if she thinks you're staying for her.


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## LongWalk

Once you have made the timeline an issue, you have to see it through to the end. Your credibility is on the line. When a teenager is told if you do this or that, you will be grounded and the they do it and grounding doesn't happen, well, what authority do the parents have?

One of the important things here is the length of the affair. That meant there was deep emotional involvement. Time and time again TAM posters discover that husband and wives are doing stuff with APs that they don't do with their spouses.

Some of it pertains to sex. Anal sex and swallowing for the lover is great, but for hubby it's not on the table. Equally harmful are emotional aspects. The marital bed. That really hurts to that a strange man or woman has been polluting the bed you sleep in every night. I mean that bed is like an animals burrow or den. You don't want to share that sacred place. 

If a cheating husband remembers to buy chocolate and flowers for his lover but forgets his wedding anniversary that is really horrible for most women.

The list of what bothers people is long. But above all lying and trickle truth are an additional obstacle to R. When a timeline is really detailed and follow up questioning is allowed, then the need for fear about unknown facts emerging diminishes. It is in the interests of the spouse to but this to rest.

The down side of detail is that it may be unbearable. If a BS insists on hearing the truth, well the truth might be that the WS says:

"We fvcked like bunnies three times that night and it felt great, I can't lie even if I am sorry now." 

Nothing is perfect here. You are a very clear headed individual and I suspect your wife is appreciating that you are no dummy. She will not be attracted to you if you are easy to trick.


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## Will_Kane

Road Scholar said:


> She started questioning why I need a timeline that it won't help me and it only keeps us focused on the past not our future and she cannot change the past.


*Rugsweeping and foot-dragging.*



Road Scholar said:


> She tells me I know the truth already. I feel like I know maybe 75% of the truth. She has told me alot, but still feel like not everything.


*Minimizing.* You are entitled to your opinion about knowing 75%, but my judgment, based on what you posted about the details she has told you, her past and CURRENT behavior, and other very similar tales posted here, is that *you have about 25% of the truth*. Maybe even less. Whether you want sexual details is up to you, but she has to tell you how long and deep this thing was, how frequent, how often they talked, how often they told each other they loved each other, how often they had sex, and how much time it robbed from you and your family.

Road, we all know it's hard to face up to something terrible we've done, but she's got to do it, she's got to admit it, she's got to own it, and *she has to apologize for it, for all of it, not just the 25% you know about*. The affair started earlier and lasted longer than she is admitting and the sex never slowed down after D-day 1. She's been in contact with him since D-day 2 at work. She still talks to him at work. It's inevitable, because he hasn't suffered any consequences at all, and neither has your wife, and the storm in her opinion already had passed.

What was her strategy about the timeline, just keep quiet about it and not do it and hope you forget about it? You asked her for it, it's obvious from her response that she had no intention of doing it unless you asked again. This is how she is going to help you heal? By hiding the truth?

*Here is how to handle the timeline now. Tell her she has until Friday morning to give you the timeline, if you don't have it by then, you'll be seeing the attorney and filing for divorce on Friday.*



Road Scholar said:


> Things got a little heated at times. Tried blameshifting a couple times about how we both screwed up - I shut that down immediately. We both own the marital problems. She took it outside the marriage. I've learned that much. Initially I was blaming myself after DDay1 and went about everything completely wrong, hence DDay2. But I have learned a little thanks to this site.


*Blameshifting.* Good job on shutting it down, but not a good sign that she still brings this up.



Road Scholar said:


> I'm not sure I will every get 100% of the truth as one poster said, so how close is enough? The physical acts, the # of times, the frequency, locations, intensity, the feelings. ALL BAD. By finding out more I will find out more versions of what I already know. I don't know that it will help me one way or another to be honest. What will help me is knowing she has true remorse and it would never happen again. If part of finding that out is forcing a timeline out of her,* to see what she can endure*, then I guess I'm in favor of getting it. I know facing what she did and documenting it will be a very painful process for her because it forces her to think about what she did not only with him, but to our family and all the lies and deception. *It would probably be good for her in the end*, but I'm sure she is afraid I will decide that I'm out if I know everything.


The point of the timeline is so that you can get the truth, not to see how much pain she can endure. You have 25% now. You want 90% or more. She writes the timeline, you review it, then you see if it all makes sense to you. What will happen is that she will list dates/times/places/things that don't add up, that don't make sense based on what you already know. The reason they won't make sense is because they are lies. It really is important - for her, for you, and for your marriage - that she tells you the truth AND apologizes for all of it. If you don't demand the truth from her, she will not respect you going forward, and you always will feel taken advantage of by her. It will come back to haunt you and bother you months and years from now.

This is how it works: In order to recover your marriage, YOU HAVE TO FORGIVE HER. In order for you to forgive her, you have to know what you are forgiving. Her apology for everything is not needed for forgiveness, but it is needed if you want to save the marriage. She has to say she's sorry, and you both have to understand exactly what it is she is apologizing for.



Road Scholar said:


> I saw the letter that was posted earlier, I think I will try that approach. I know it's hard for her thinking that we were moving to a good place only to have the rug yanked from under her feet with my questioning her, but honestly it feels right. It has felt at times like *she has gotten too comfortable *and that things were moving ahead smoothly. *It's been 2.5 weeks since she sent the text, "Greygoose and soda. Alone at the bar. Wish you were here." * I told her I don't know how she is going to feel in 2 weeks or 3 weeks from now. She has asked me can't you see a change, doesn't it feel different? I said yes, for 2.5 weeks it has. *Try it for 5 months*.


Use the letter. Re-type it as your own, or just print out the one here. You need the truth. Definitely, she got too comfortable, wants to skip over the hard parts - doing the timeline, leaving the job (sorry, I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think she's going to leave that job anytime soon, despite all her resume-writing and networking). I hope you told her "try it for 5 months." Her affair probably lasted a year or longer, so yeah, for her to expect you to be ready to forget about it all in 2.5 weeks borders on delusional.



Road Scholar said:


> healing faster the 2nd time around. Or maybe its just part II of the same sh*t show.


This is because she at least is saying the right things (most of the time), giving you sex, cooking your meals, and being pleasant. At least trying to placate you. After D-day 1, you got nothing at all, she made zero effort.



Road Scholar said:


> *I told her that I didn't want to lose her at some point *over the last 2 weeks, *which she asked me to remember* last night after our "talk".


I guess we all have a level of bullsh1t we're willing to put up with, and I have kids, too, but really, F her and the horse she rode in on.

*Also - telling other man's wife is key*. This is starting to drag out - she's still working there, he's still working there, they can communicate whenever they want at work, NOTHING MUCH HAS REALLY CHANGED. They have already had contact since d-day 2 to get some "closure" and say their tearful "I'll always remember you and love you" goodbyes. Pretty soon, one or the other of them will miss the affair and escalate it back up to where it was.

The way it works is, she still has feelings for him, still sexually desires him, and most of all, *she still worries about him and how he is doing - constantly*. The feelings will die out eventually with no contact, but it will be like a crack addict quitting cold turkey for her not to reach out to him to see how he is doing when she is at work. There still is contact, and that is why you still are getting the foot dragging, blame-shifting, and rug-sweeping.

As long as they work for the same company, there will be contact.


----------



## Acabado

Shaggy said:


> Her not doing the timeline lets her keep her time with him private, safe, and precious.
> 
> It permits her to be loyal to him, to not reveal his secrets to you, and for her to be worthy of his trust.
> 
> It keeps the places, times, and things they did no just in bed, but on dates safe from you and for them only.
> 
> Wouldn't you want to know if you are checking into the same hotel they used for sex ? Wouldn't you want to know if you are at dinner or a place if they met there together on dates?
> 
> Wouldn't you want to know if she's started wearing her hair like he likes it, or ordering his favorite meal, or drinking the drink he recommended for her?
> 
> See it's about knowing the affair history inside and out, so you can deal with it now, and so you can steer clear of it later.
> 
> This isn't an old before you relationship that she gets to keep safe and tucked away, this is an adulterous sexual affair with an executive at her company. She lied, betrayed and was unfaithful to you for at least a year.
> 
> It needs to be faced, dissected and destroyed.


This .. x1000
She has to betray OM with you and she needs to renounce to any possible fond memory friom this time.
Not a single secret from this.
She's protecting her precious luurv affair.


----------



## Wazza

On digging for the truth, here is a thread you might find helpful:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/52432-archeologist-truth.html

There are lots of reasons she might not want to come clean with the details. There might be more you don't know that she is not sure you could accept. She might be not wanting to talk about it because the affair is still going on (sorry but it is a possibility, I can point you to plenty of threads where that has happened to others). 

But in my wife's case, and with some other waywards I have known, the motives can be pure. They can think that the best way to put things behind them is not to talk about it. They can be ashamed of what they did. My wife was like this. She believed when I brought it up I was attacking her. Not so......I needed to heal.

You will know when you have enough truth. You will know when you are better to stop digging for details, when extra information does more harm than good. But until you reach that point, you will never heal 100%. There are some horrible emotions ahead of you and your wife is making them worse.

That is the point of Joseph's letter, and I think it is a good approach to discussing with her.


----------



## Wazza

Acabado said:


> This .. x1000
> She has to betray OM with you and she needs to renounce to any possible fond memory friom this time.
> Not a single secret from this.
> She's protecting her precious luurv affair.


Alternately it could hurt her to talk about it.

Tough luck imo. She caused the damage. While it may be very noble of RS to take the emotional load on himself, it won't work. It is too much to bear.


----------



## Acabado

Wazza said:


> Alternately it could hurt her to talk about it.
> 
> Tough luck imo. She caused the damage. While it may be very noble of RS to take the emotional load on himself, it won't work. It is too much to bear.


I absolutly disagree with this.

Full, complete disclosure is key, for both. At all levels.
I couln't imagine even to think on R with less that it.


----------



## Acabado

For her own sake she can't have that place, the little box in her head where she put OM, the romance, the excitement, any good memory from this time.. where she can scape and daydream every time things get though.
On the other hand I wouldn't reconcile with a woman who still deep inside believe her better times were those asociated a another man... while married to me... therefor settled with the second best. No way.


----------



## Wazza

Acabado said:


> I absolutly disagree with this.
> 
> Full, complete disclosure is key, for both. At all levels.
> I couln't imagine even to think on R with less that it.


I am not arguing against full disclosure. I never got it, and that is a major issue in our marriage, one that will never totally heal. 

But the post you quoted was simply examining the WS reasons for not disclosing. And it's not always to preserve a special place with OM. That's all I was saying.


----------



## Shaggy

Btw, I remember one BS who made his fww read her love letters to the OM out loud to him, and to do it well into R and well after the fog. It served as both a punishment and a reminder.


----------



## Kallan Pavithran

I my opinion BS who are ready to 
1. loose the marriage can save the marriage.
2. Who can detach and see things for what it is can save the M.
3. BS who can stand for his needs can save the marriage
4. BS who is firm and know what they needed can save the marriage.
5. BS who knows the complete truth or what they are forgiving can save the marriage.
6. Most important one for R is a truly remorseful wife, who is ready to do anything to heal their BS.

You dont have any of this, so you can R when you have all the above. 


She is dragging you without meeting any of your demands in the hope that you will get over it in few weeks but it never works like that when its about infidelity.

Take your own time and decide. Dont give any promises now. Stop being so desperate to R, it will only show you as weak, needy and self respect less in her eyes.


----------



## bfree

First off all you do NOT take these types of books out from a library. You BUY them so that you can use them as a reference going forward. They need to be read over and over again until they sink in. Second, did I read that she reminded you that YOU don't want to lose HER? Really? My friend, she is dragging her feet big time and if you continue to allow it you're going to turn this R into another false R.


----------



## Thorburn

I know several folks have hammered the timeline. I want to emphasize that this was a big issue with me from Nov. 2011 till late April 2013. My wife lied about her timeline. I went into investigation mode and had just about everything as far as dates, times and places. And my wife just dug in her heels about several dates and times. It really made no sense to me why she was so reluctant to just admit to the evidence. I showed her phone records that nailed her.

When she came clean those things were willingly revealed. She did not want to admit to them because she and the XOM agrreed to a timeline and honoring him was more important at the time. When he was no longer important and her focus was on saving our marriage the timeline was freely given. I did not have to push it. She gave it to me willingly.

When your wife shows reluctance in any of these areas it is a huge red flag. When she becomes an open book and stops dragging her feet you will know it.


----------



## bfree

Let me follow up a little if I may.

She is not sorry that she had an affair, she is sorry she got caught.

She is not afraid of losing you, she is afraid of losing her "family."

She is not remorseful, she is regretful.

What you need to understand is that you are NOT reconciling yet. She is still having an affair so reconciliation cannot take place. Now she might not be having sex with him. She might not even be talking to him. But he is taking up space in her head and that will not end until she is no longer working at that job.

When she wakes up every morning she is not thinking "where can I send my resume to." She is thinking "I wonder if I'll see him."

When she is driving to work she is not thinking "I need to buy that book my husband wants me to read." She is thinking of ways to either avoid him or run into him. And it really doesn't matter which one she is thinking because she is NOT thinking of you, your marriage or your children.

So long as HE is in her head you are not the focal point. So long as HE is in her thoughts your children are being treated as second class citizens. So long as she thinks about him every day she is not going to work to rebuild the marriage or do the heavy lifting required to reconcile. And as long as she (even potentially) sees him every day she is NOT your wife. Friend, you are too nice a guy and so long as you drag your feet so will she.

This is going to sound harsh but I'm going to say it anyway. You are failing. You are NOT leading your family, you are not leading her and you are not leading your marriage. Men are action oriented creatures and women expect men to ACT. You are standing around and letting your house burn down. You need a catalyst and you need to be the creator of that catalyst.

YOU NEED TO DEMAND THAT SHE QUIT HER JOB TODAY!

I know what you are going to say. Financially its not possible. Well then I suggest you start thinking of taking money out of your 401k. You know, the retirement account she will get half of when you divorce. Or I suggest you think about taking money out of the kids college fund. You know, the bank account you and she created, the same one she is going to be in charge of after you and she are no longer together.

"We can't afford for her to just leave her job."

I ask you this. Can you afford her to stay?


----------



## theroad

Road Scholar said:


> I'm curious as to why you feel the affair is still going on and if others on the site feel the same? She claims to have ended it....and my threat of filing made her see the light. I understand I found out about her still being in contact with him versus her telling me but is it possible she has snapped out of it when I told her I'm filing for divorce?
> 
> Also, while she probably felt like she loved him, during the affair why is it you feel she still loves him? It's sick that she was telling me she loved me during the whole 5 month period. Again says she only saw him once....can't be true right?
> 
> I appreciate the tough love but what specifically are you suggesting I do that I haven't done?


Without NC the affair is still on.

Without NC the WW will not get over her feelings for the OM and hence out of not wanting to cheat on her OM she will not put out for you.


----------



## Shaggy

Her refusing to do things to protect the OM is an important thing to watch out for. She might far him loosing his job or marriage if certain events are known, or it might motivate you to expose him if you knew he did certain things with her, or at particularly horrible times.


The bottom line is it is about loyalty and secrets.

She's been more loyal to him for at least the past year than she has been to you.

She needs to betray him to you if R has any chance.


----------



## theroad

Road Scholar said:


> Love my Truck....the 2.5 weeks marks my DDay 2 after a false R and going through IC and MC for nearly 5 months. I'm still coming to terms with what that means and what really happened during the 5 months she claimed we were "trying to figure things out". She claims they did not talk/text all the time and she admits to being with him just once physically during that time. I have a hard time believing that is true and need to know the truth. I feel she was maybe pulling away from him during that time and her feelings lessened for him during that time but I think it was probably still fairly an intense game for her. So I kinda know she is/was full of crap, but I'm also thinking she made a terrible mistake and is begining to realize that now.
> 
> From an outsider looking in, it's easy to say run away, don't walk and certainly don't stay with this woman. that would have been my advise to someone in my shoes....BUT, I have 2 great kids to think about and still wonder if the M can be salvaged. She doesn't deserve another chance but my kids do. She certainly was begging me for another chance 2 weeks ago. Some may think that's a cop out and maybe to some extent it is, but I don't want to hurt my kids who are very sensitive and I am extremely close to them.
> 
> But I agree with what people here are saying. She needs to do the heavy work this time around and earn it. I need more truth and I need for her to want help heal me. I can't make it too easy or it will be taken for granted. I get it. I can't let what I want get in the way of what needs to happen.


WW speak:
It was just an EA = they kissed

We just kissed = oral

Any time a WW says they only did it once = they did it more then once, most likely a lot more.

Just oral = In the words or Howard Cosell: he/OM went all the way.


----------



## RWB

Shaggy said:


> Btw, *I remember one BS who made his fww read her love letters to the OM out loud to him,* and to do it well into R and well after the fog. It served as both a punishment and a reminder.


That would be Me. 

Yes, there was some punishment (satisfaction) in my doing this, but it was also to "show" her just how far she had fallen. She was great at compartmentalizing. She had buried years of serial cheating and needed to own the horrible truth if we were going to have any chance. 

My grown son was "holding" the emails, he didn't think I could handle them early on. In truth, when I/she read them out loud, it was worse than I expected 1000X. Yeah, the sexual content was hard, but the total disregard for our marriage (30 years), the admission of prior affairs, the casual-reckless-selfishness she showed was something I could never imagined. She had fooled everyone for years.

That day, I looked at a woman I had shared a life with for 30+ years and realized I didn't know who she was, what she believed, a stranger.

Good idea?... Truthfully, that day, week, month, was a major setback, but without going there... real R would never of happened. She could never hide behind her pretty facade again and ignore the truth.


----------



## someone90

Road Scholar,

I read through all of your posts on this thread and although I can't put myself in your shoes I just don't see how you can still be there with all of the things she has done.

I don't see how she cares for you, going to MC while banging him on the side after she had already been exposed? Only showing remorse after you're willing to file for divorce? Texting that she misses him only a couple of weeks ago? 
It doesn't seem like anything she is doing is for you, she just wants to keep her family life, not a special relationship with you.

What really confuses me is that you still want to have sex with her, how is that even possible? Just a few days after all this happened you jumped in bed with her again, this situation should have made you repulsed by her and she should be the one trying to fix things, but it's the opposite. I know a lot has changed over the past 5 months but where is your self respect? 
Bottom line, even though you let her walk all over you, she shouldn't have. She showed you the person she is and the fact that she hasn't fully complied with everything you've said shows that she's still trying to play you.


----------



## Will_Kane

someone90 said:


> What really confuses me is that you still want to have sex with her, how is that even possible? Just a few days after all this happened you jumped in bed with her again, this situation should have made you repulsed by her.


It's called "hysterical bonding" though there's nothing particularly funny about it. It refers to the surprisingly common phenomenon following discovery of a spouse's adultery to suddenly crave sex with that person morning, noon and night. 

There may be a period of of what is termed 'hysterical bonding' between the BS WS. Often this is manifested in the form of frequent sex, far in excess of what may have been 'normal' pre infidelity. There is very little information on this phenomenon, but it appears to be a primal, instinctual way for the partners to reconnect and reclaim each other. While it may feel counter-intuitive to the BS; as if they are 'rewarding' the WS for the affair, hysterical bonding can be a stepping stone to reconciliation. The intimacy encourages communication and a closeness that may otherwise take some time to re-build. For some BS's it is a way of 'reclaiming' the WS, or 'overwriting' the OP from the WS's memories. Hysterical bonding may not happen for you, some BS's find it takes time before they desire intimacy with their WS. This is completely normal and has no relation as to the possible success or failure of your recovery. As far as how long hysterical bonding will last - again it will rely on many factors.


----------



## LongWalk

Hysterical bonding makes great sense from an evolutionary point of view. The male is trying to impregnate the female. The female is trying to avoid violence. Furthermore, she is reestablishing the relationship with a mate who may be important for her survival and the survival of existing and future offspring.

A great deal of the advice on TAM deals with interpreting the gap between what is said and what is done. Spouse says they love their partner but never initiate sex. What does that mean? Spouse says they need time in separation to rediscover passion for partner. Is this a genuine need for reflection or a sneaky means to dump?

Hysterical bonding in the short term is an unambiguous form of communication. You hare having so much sex that you know cheating cannot take place. The spouses are calling each other names in lust and tenderness, creating a love high, even if it is a relationship that is in deep trouble.

On the negative side, for the cheater it is a rugsweeping tool. The BS cannot ask questions if they are sleeping after all the exercise. For the WS there is the implicit element of forgiveness, which may be retracted but at least gives hope.


----------



## theroad

someone90 said:


> Road Scholar,
> 
> I read through all of your posts on this thread and although I can't put myself in your shoes I just don't see how you can still be there with all of the things she has done.
> 
> I don't see how she cares for you, going to MC while banging him on the side after she had already been exposed? Only showing remorse after you're willing to file for divorce? Texting that she misses him only a couple of weeks ago?
> It doesn't seem like anything she is doing is for you, she just wants to keep her family life, not a special relationship with you.
> 
> What really confuses me is that you still want to have sex with her, how is that even possible? Just a few days after all this happened you jumped in bed with her again, this situation should have made you repulsed by her and she should be the one trying to fix things, but it's the opposite. I know a lot has changed over the past 5 months but where is your self respect?
> Bottom line, even though you let her walk all over you, she shouldn't have. She showed you the person she is and the fact that she hasn't fully complied with everything you've said shows that she's still trying to play you.


You sound as a person that does not know much about affairs.

All WW that go to MC during the affair are just wasting time. Making it appear that they are working on the marriage. They do this so they can deny they are having an affair an they hope to get the MC to tell the BH to stop being paranoid.

How are you confused that he wants to have sex with his WW. Having sex is what a BH wants to do when he is trying to recover his marriage.

This BH is doing nothing wrong.


----------



## terrence4159

road im late to the thread, everyone here WANTS TO SAVE YOUR marriage. every bit of advice is to SAVE your marriage i know it feels like we are all saying run from it. we are not, she is all begging now and threw some sex at you and you want to beleive her. what happened was she saw her back up plan (you) her fish getting off the hook when you mentioned divorce that she set the hook in deeper with tears and sex and you gobbled it up faster the speed of light and are hooked again.

most of us have been where you are i wished i would have had this website when my ex wife cheated on me 9 years ago i didnt and i handled it all wrong for 3 months.


----------



## someone90

theroad said:


> You sound as a person that does not know much about affairs.
> 
> All WW that go to MC during the affair are just wasting time. Making it appear that they are working on the marriage. They do this so they can deny they are having an affair an they hope to get the MC to tell the BH to stop being paranoid.
> 
> How are you confused that he wants to have sex with his WW. Having sex is what a BH wants to do when he is trying to recover his marriage.
> 
> This BH is doing nothing wrong.


You're right, I really don't know much about affairs. 

I know he's trying to recover his marriage but I just don't know how he could still want her after all of this. If I were in that situation I would be repulsed by her.


----------



## WyshIknew

someone90 said:


> You're right, I really don't know much about affairs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I know he's trying to recover his marriage but I just don't know how he could still want her after all of this. If I were in that situation I would be repulsed by her.







no one 'knows' what they would do until they have lived it.


----------



## illwill

WyshIknew said:


> no one 'knows' what they would do until they have lived it.


That's not really true. I did what i thought i would do. I quickly left, and so did my brother, and sister, and best friend. The issue is how well do you know yourself? Most of the betrayed never think it will happen, so they were not being honest with themselves when they said they'd leave.


----------



## LongWalk

Wazza said:


> On digging for the truth, here is a thread you might find helpful:
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/52432-archeologist-truth.html
> 
> There are lots of reasons she might not want to come clean with the details. There might be more you don't know that she is not sure you could accept. She might be not wanting to talk about it because the affair is still going on (sorry but it is a possibility, I can point you to plenty of threads where that has happened to others).
> 
> But in my wife's case, and with some other waywards I have known, the motives can be pure. They can think that the best way to put things behind them is not to talk about it. They can be ashamed of what they did. My wife was like this. She believed when I brought it up I was attacking her. Not so......I needed to heal.
> 
> You will know when you have enough truth. You will know when you are better to stop digging for details, when extra information does more harm than good. But until you reach that point, you will never heal 100%. There are some horrible emotions ahead of you and your wife is making them worse.
> 
> That is the point of Joseph's letter, and I think it is a good approach to discussing with her.


Read these posts about reconciliation carefully. You are the captain of the ship. Others have seen their reconciled marriages smash on the rocks again. That doesn't mean it is your fate. Merely consider the wisdom of their experience.

Part of the deal is that your wife and you are in a new marriage. If she does something your don't like, perhaps not even related to the affair, you may just snap and say fuggit and she will not find it fair. So, it is better to create moral order that will give you confidence. It is better for her, too.

You are going to be less dependent on her for happiness and affirmation now, correct? She must not feel that you are needy and can be brought back on board easily with food and sex.

Men are suckers for food and sex by the way


----------



## Chaparral

One way to get the point across cheaply. Download divorce papers for your state. If not downloadable, you should be able to pick them up at your county courthouse.

Let her see them (accidently?). Check out her reaction, but the main point is to let her know SHE isn't off the hook for a long time.


----------



## someone90

Chaparral said:


> One way to get the point across cheaply. Download divorce papers for your state. If not downloadable, you should be able to pick them up at your county courthouse.
> 
> Let her see them (accidently?). Check out her reaction, but the main point is to let her know SHE isn't off the hook for a long time.


I don't know how much hope there is for him. Obviously his wife has been taking advantage of her husband's passive nature, from the affair all the to faking MC. 
It seems like she got scared when he started talking about divorce but what does that really mean? Did she have an epiphany and wants to change? Or did she just realize that she needs to be more strategic. 

Doesn't seem like this marriage is healthy when you have to threaten someone to make it work...


----------



## Thor

someone90 said:


> I don't know how much hope there is for him. Obviously his wife has been taking advantage of her husband's passive nature, from the affair all the to faking MC.
> It seems like she got scared when he started talking about divorce but what does that really mean? Did she have an epiphany and wants to change? Or did she just realize that she needs to be more strategic.
> 
> Doesn't seem like this marriage is healthy when you have to threaten someone to make it work...


I believe it takes more than a threat, it takes a deep fright. If one establishes a line in the sand, the WS will act like a 4 yr old child and see how far they can push things.

"WS, if I find you have had any contact with posom I will divorce you!".

OK, so WW has to be sure he never _finds_ any evidence.

But if it is turned into a consequence already occurring, the cheater will feel real fear of loss. "WW, our marriage is done. D is in process. There is the possibility I will change my mind, but _only if you prove to me there is good reason for me to stay with you_.".

Lines in the sand are valid, but the cheater may not believe the line is well defined, or may not believe the consequences will be enforced. A line in the sand is useful to the BS as a trigger point for him/her self to bail out. I am not convinced the line in the sand causes change in the WS.


----------



## Road Scholar

illwill said:


> That's not really true. I did what i thought i would do. I quickly left, and so did my brother, and sister, and best friend. The issue is how well do you know yourself? Most of the betrayed never think it will happen, so they were not being honest with themselves when they said they'd leave.


Do you have regrets? Truthfully. Does or did she have regret or remorse? Were all options explored before you ended it or was that not something you could even consider? Do you have kids? How long were you married. Lots of variables come in to play obviously....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Lovemytruck

Road Scholar said:


> Do you have regrets? Truthfully. Does or did she have regret or remorse? Were all options explored before you ended it or was that not something you could even consider? Do you have kids? How long were you married. Lots of variables come in to play obviously....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I like your post above. You are thinking clearly, and you are living up to your posting name.

We sometimes get caught up in the emotion of the betrayal. It is an essential part, but it needs to be balanced with the logic.

You choices now become critical to your long-term happiness.

Is the R worth it? Is the D worth it? Both are difficult.

It seems we all have our own timetable while evaluating the risk/reward of our choices. I have made a couple of observations about regret. Some seem to quickly move to a D. Generally they don't report much regret. Some (me included) take a few months to become sure of their choice. Some never make a choice, and still suffer.

Give yourself a reasonable time to evaluate what you feel is in your best interest. Don't let FEAR be the reason you make your decision. Decide what truly is in YOUR best interest. Not what is just best for kids, money, etc.

Time is more valuable than money. Consider that when you begin to realize you are not in a place you want to be.

I would hope that you make the best choice possible. Don't discount the unforseen benefits of a new life in either path.


----------



## Wazza

Lovemytruck said:


> I like your post above. You are thinking clearly, and you are living up to your posting name.
> 
> We sometimes get caught up in the emotion of the betrayal. It is an essential part, but it needs to be balanced with the logic.
> 
> You choices now become critical to your long-term happiness.
> 
> Is the R worth it? Is the D worth it? Both are difficult.
> 
> It seems we all have our own timetable while evaluating the risk/reward of our choices. I have made a couple of observations about regret. Some seem to quickly move to a D. Generally they don't report much regret. Some (me included) take a few months to become sure of their choice. Some never make a choice, and still suffer. *And some reconcile successfully and are happy.
> *
> Give yourself a reasonable time to evaluate what you feel is in your best interest. Don't let FEAR be the reason you make your decision. Decide what truly is in YOUR best interest. Not what is just best for kids, money, etc.
> 
> Time is more valuable than money. Consider that when you begin to realize you are not in a place you want to be.
> 
> I would hope that you make the best choice possible. Don't discount the unforseen benefits of a new life in either path.


Fixed it for you. 

Each person has their on approach to life, their own heart, their own way of dealing. We can share ideas and information, but how you process betrayal is a personal matter.


----------



## Lovemytruck

Wazza said:


> Fixed it for you.
> 
> Each person has their on approach to life, their own heart, their own way of dealing. We can share ideas and information, but how you process betrayal is a personal matter.


Thanks for the fix! I agree 100%. The wording was a little unclear. My intent was to make a choice. I think regret comes to those that never choose to head down one path or the other.

R is a choice, and may be a good one!


----------



## illwill

15 years and a son and not 1 regret. She was very remorseful, and i forgave her, but divorced her. All the others were from 12 to 18 years married. They all had kids. No one i know regrets divorcing a cheater. Did not try counseling, because cheating is my only dealbreaker. My dad established early that a man must have a code of what he will and will not accept. I teach my son the same. I'm not knocking those that do reconcile, i respect the ones who do it from a positison of tough love, but many people love their spouses, but still walk away, like they said they would.


----------



## Openminded

There is unfortunately no way to determine what the future holds for any of us. Some R successfully. Some do not. Some rush into D. Some wait and then D. Some stay in miserable marriages for the rest of their lives for a number of reasons. Some have happy marriages. 

We go forward because we for sure can't go back.


----------



## Road Scholar

Just a quick update...I talked to the OM's wife today. 

She called me after apparently having received the letter I sent to his neighbors house in care of Her Name and marked Personal and Confidential. BRILLIANT suggestion to whomever it was on TAM that made the suggestion. I sent a total of 4 letters. She was very cold and very unemotional - borderline rude really. She apparently DID know about the affair and apparently received my other letters. She asked me to stop sending them, which of course I will. She said she understood I was angry but suggested that I act with class going forward. Can you imagine? Obviously she is concerned about her neighbors finding out about it. Anyhow, I assurred her that she would not hear from me again and I wished her luck. I told her I felt it was my responsibility to let her know. The call was from her home phone so I am fairly certain it was her.

As far as the R goes, we're still working on it. After I complained last week about her not getting me a timeline or the book, she purchased the book online the next day. One day later, she read the entire thing. She initially thought I was asking her to buy to book to punish her or make her feel bad about things. Not my intention - it was to educate her (and me) on what we both need to be doing to make things work and increase our odds of being successful. Still no timeline as she is reluctant to chronicle the events of the affair. She is doing what she can to help me. She understands how bad she f'd up and is being very loving and supportive. I feel better still when I see her feeling bad and tearful and sobbing. That can't continue either because while it provides reassurance to me that she is sincere, I cannot take comfort or joy if she is miserable. At some point I need to feel happy that she is feeling happy and vice versa. My guess is that will take time. 

Trust is definitely broken and pretty much still non-existent. She sent me an invite to an after work function for this week - a team happy hour - and very casually mentioned, "I might go but not sure". I lost it. I said I don't know how you even remotely think this is a good idea and sent examples of all the lies perpetrated during the affair under the same kind of fascade. I demanded that she tell me when she was with him last. She got it, but I am bothered that she would have sent that to begin with without having given it more thought or thinking first, maybe I shouldn't even think about going out with work friends just yet....in the past, i wouldn't have thought twice about it. Total faith total trust. No mas.

There is still work to be done. And who knows how this will end. I am willing to try for now and we'll see where it goes from here.


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## Shaggy

She's hoping you'll rugsweep if she just keeps putting off.

Sorry but it's now weeks after dday and while you've gotten sex, you haven't gotten std results, a polygraph or timeline.

And his many jobs has she applied to?

In many ways you are right where you were after dday one. Except you are getting laid.

I'm not trying to attack you, You are going through hell right now.

My advice sit her down an say what you need and need now or else you will file.

She's following the exact game plan she did before, and you are accept it again. So don't expect to get different results.


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## Shaggy

I would have told OMW that you will leave her alone only if her husband leaves your wife alone. 

She's obviously going to go with rug sweeping, so her husband will be free to continue with your wife.

Sorry, I think you're going to facing dday 3 unless you really change the situation. All you've done at this point is catch her again.


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## azteca1986

Have you got the timeline yet? 

If not, why are you letting her stall you for so long? It's for your benefit to help YOU heal. Is helping you get through this a priority for her?


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## Will_Kane

Road Scholar said:


> Just a quick update...I talked to the OM's wife today.
> 
> She was very cold and very unemotional - borderline rude really. She apparently DID know about the affair and apparently received my other letters. She asked me to stop sending them, which of course I will. She said she understood I was angry but suggested that I act with class going forward. Can you imagine?
> 
> Still no timeline as she is reluctant to chronicle the events of the affair.
> 
> She sent me an invite to an after work function for this week - a team happy hour - and very casually mentioned, "I might go but not sure".


Good job on contacting the other man's wife. What happened was that your wife warned the other man of your intentions to contact the other man's wife, and other man was able to paint you as a crazy liar. Maybe your wife even talked to other man's wife to tell her how crazy jealous you've always been. I'm guessing she doesn't really believe you. You'll never know.

She agreed to the timeline, but now won't do it. Next step then would be to ask for a polygraph. Questions to include: (1) Yes or no: only one time sexual after the first D-day? (2) Yes or no: no contact since the second D-day? She definitely will fail on both.

If you never do the timeline and never do the polygraph, you will just have to live with the acceptance that your wife most likely lied to you, and doesn't love you enough to tell you the truth. It hurts, but others have done it, and it only bothers them occasionally.

The most important thing now is for her to leave that job.

In my opinion, not being willing to do the timeline is a very bad sign. Too many cheaters have acted sad and cried crocodile tears for me to believe in them. Actions don't lie.


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## turnera

Focus on the timeline.


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## Wazza

I tend to agree that you should push the timeline. I suspect you won't fully heal without it.

Trust is a strange thing. Here I am advising you, but the bottom line is that I think nothing would ever restore total trust in my wife again.


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## Dyokemm

Well,

If OMW wants to rugsweep and protect her POS WH from consequences, and he tries to continue the A with your WW, you have one option, OP.

Next time he reaches out to your WW in ANY way nuke the living s**t out of his career completely and ruthlessly.

That is probably what its gonna take with this scumbag.

And if your WW truly wants to R, not only should she be OK with this, she should provide you with any necessary info or evidence you need to destroy this piece of filth.

Loyalty to you and the M MUST come first.


----------



## warlock07

> I said I don't know how you even remotely think this is a good idea and sent examples of all the lies perpetrated during the affair under the same kind of facade.


Maybe if you actually gave her a chance to think about what she did. 

Maybe if you placed your forgiveness and R at a premium instead of handing out easily just because she chose you when you said you would file for divorce...


----------



## harrybrown

She has had enough time for the timeline. Is she protecting the OM and still not caring about you and your feelings? Get the timeline now and tell her to put you first and not the OM.

She is embarrassed, but you need to know the timeline. She did wonderful things for the OM and spent a lot of energy and effort for the OM. She needs to spend some energy on you. Respect yourself, she is still not respecting you.


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## bfree

"Wife, if we are to stay together I must come to a point where I can forgive you for what you have done. If I cannot learn to forgive you then I can never rebuild my trust for you. In that case we can no longer stay married. The timeline I have asked you for is something I need in order to eventually forgive you. Without the timeline I have no idea what I'm forgiving you for. Believe me, I don't want to read it any more than you want to write it. It is a painful but necessary step in our reconciliation. The longer it takes you to complete the timeline the further along down the road of detachment I travel. Eventually I will be too far down that road for you to reach me and then our marriage is over."


----------



## Shaggy

Is there a point where you will nuke the OM at work? Or is that sacred ground that is safe for him?


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## Thor

There is a reason she is stalling on the timeline. None of the possible reasons are good. At best she has not committed to R.


----------



## wilderness

If this were me I would go ahead and send the letter to the OMs next door neighbors. The OM wife has shown that she doesn't care to resolve this thing personally, so maybe a little pressure from the neighborhood may help. It is certainly not your responsibility to keep your wife and OMs secret.


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## Thor

Disagree. There is no reason to drag the neighbors into this now. It will only result in law suits for harassment.


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## warlock07

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/109673-just-found-out-about-my-wife-cheating.html

Read this thread Road. Your story is following his. There are many similarities. You are a few weeks behind him


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## wilderness

Thor said:


> Disagree. There is no reason to drag the neighbors into this now. It will only result in law suits for harassment.


Harassment for _one_ letter? No way.


----------



## Air Texas

The lack of her willingness to do the timeline is an indication of her lack of being open and honest. Period. If you and she do not see this, you are both missing the big picture. You deserve the truth so you can get over it. If you aren't told the truth you will never trust her or ever it over it. You might as well end your misery.


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## Wazza

wilderness said:


> Harassment for _one_ letter? No way.


Exposure can backfire. If I received random mails about neighbours infidelities, I would probably assume the sender was a nutter....


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## wilderness

Wazza said:


> Exposure can backfire. If I received random mails about neighbours infidelities, I would probably assume the sender was a nutter....


With all due respect, so what? These are neighbors of the OM, not his own neighbors. Let them assume whatever they want to.


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## Wazza

wilderness said:


> With all due respect, so what? These are neighbors of the OM, not his own neighbors. Let them assume whatever they want to.


Lol. 

What's the point of making random strangers think you are crazy? I don't particularly care if some stranger thinks that of me, but it's not an impression I go out of my way to create. Apart from anything else, if the aim is to put pressure on OM, I don't think presenting him as the victim of a serial lunatic achieves that end. 

There are times when I think exposure can be useful, but it must be strategically applied.


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## wilderness

Wazza said:


> Lol.
> 
> What's the point of making random strangers think you are crazy? I don't particularly care if some stranger thinks that of me, but it's not an impression I go out of my way to create. Apart from anything else, if the aim is to put pressure on OM, I don't think presenting him as the victim of a serial lunatic achieves that end.
> 
> There are times when I think exposure can be useful, but it must be strategically applied.


I'll tell you one thing. If someone contacted my next door neighbors about me, about _anything_, it would make me uncomfortable as hell. So to me, there is utility there as it makes the affair an uncomfortable place to be. I would also expose to OMs work (whether he works with W or not), other man's boss/superviser, OMs coworkers, OMs facebook friends, OMs immediate and extended family, and even OMs x spouses and girlfriends.


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## Thor

wilderness said:


> Harassment for _one_ letter? No way.


OP has sent 4 letters, and the recipient has asked he stop sending any more.



Road Scholar said:


> She called me after apparently having received the letter I sent to his neighbors house in care of Her Name and marked Personal and Confidential.
> 
> I sent a total of 4 letters. She was very cold and very unemotional - borderline rude really. She apparently DID know about the affair and apparently received my other letters. She asked me to stop sending them


OP stands to be sued for some sort of harassment or defamation of character by contacting neighbors with information not directly related to the neighbor.

OP got the job done, he did his good deed notifying the posom's wife.


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## wilderness

Thor said:


> OP has sent 4 letters, and the recipient has asked he stop sending any more.
> 
> 
> 
> OP stands to be sued for some sort of harassment or defamation of character by contacting neighbors with information not directly related to the neighbor.
> 
> OP got the job done, he did his good deed notifying the posom's wife.


The way you phrase it is a little deceptive imo. The OP has sent 4 letters to OMs wife, not 4 letters to OMs neighbors. The OP has sent 1 letter to OMs neighbors, and that letter was addressed to OM. So I think most reasonable people would interpret OMs wife's request to mean that she wishes that OP stop sending letters to her. And really, she doesn't have authority to request that OP not send letters to people other than herself. 

Also, being sued for harassment and/or defamation of character is extremely unlikely to happen, because any letter would be a one time thing (ok, 2 if you count the first one, but still not harassment) and would just contain facts, anyway. The truth is the ultimate defense, as they say. And these types of lawsuits are expensive for the party doing the sueing and very rarely succeed. 

As such I stand by my advice.


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## Wazza

wilderness said:


> The way you phrase it is a little deceptive imo. The OP has sent 4 letters to OMs wife, not 4 letters to OMs neighbors. The OP has sent 1 letter to OMs neighbors, and that letter was addressed to OM. So I think most reasonable people would interpret OMs wife's request to mean that she wishes that OP stop sending letters to her. And really, she doesn't have authority to request that OP not send letters to people other than herself.
> 
> Also, being sued for harassment and/or defamation of character is extremely unlikely to happen, because any letter would be a one time thing (ok, 2 if you count the first one, but still not harassment) and would just contain facts, anyway. The truth is the ultimate defense, as they say. And these types of lawsuits are expensive for the party doing the sueing and very rarely succeed.
> 
> As such I stand by my advice.


I think that being cheated on is incredibly emotional, and it is wise to assume your judgement is flawed and be wary of doing rash things.


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## wilderness

Wazza said:


> I think that being cheated on is incredibly emotional, and it is wise to assume your judgement is flawed and be wary of doing rash things.


That's an ad hominem argument, my friend.


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## Wazza

Well I believe in thinking before acting. The phrase "bull in a China shop" exists for a reason. But in the aftermath of my wife's affair it was very hard to be rational, and very easy to think in terms of how good acts of revenge would feel, without properly considering how they would rebound on me.

More true if divorce is on the table, since the financial impacts can be huge.

But I respect that your experience must be sufficiently different that the relevance of what I am saying is not obvious.


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## wilderness

Wazza said:


> Well I believe in thinking before acting. The phrase "bull in a China shop" exists for a reason. But in the aftermath of my wife's affair it was very hard to be rational, and very easy to think in terms of how good acts of revenge would feel, without properly considering how they would rebound on me.
> 
> More true if divorce is on the table, since the financial impacts can be huge.
> 
> But I respect that your experience must be sufficiently different that the relevance of what I am saying is not obvious.


Actually, my wife and her family used my exposure as a means to accuse me of abuse and harassment, and eventually had me thrown in jail on a false allegation as well, which had a lot to do with my exposure. (this despite the fact that the exposure was a one time thing, AND it was not harassing or abusive in any way at all) Yet I was fighting for my family, and if I had to do it all over, I would do the same thing.

In the case of OP, I truly do not believe that him sending 1 letter will result in consequences to him. The risk is extremely small, imo. I believe the vast majority of people feel after the fact that they under exposed, and not vica versa.


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## Wazza

wilderness said:


> Actually, my wife and her family used my exposure as a means to accuse me of abuse and harassment, and eventually had me thrown in jail on a false allegation as well, which had a lot to do with my exposure. (this despite the fact that the exposure was a one time thing, AND it was not harassing or abusive in any way at all) Yet I was fighting for my family, and if I had to do it all over, I would do the same thing.
> 
> In the case of OP, I truly do not believe that him sending 1 letter will result in consequences to him. The risk is extremely small, imo. I believe the vast majority of people feel after the fact that they under exposed, and not vica versa.


Good post.

If, understanding the implications clearly, you feel your decision was the right one for you, I totally respect that.


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## Thor

wilderness said:


> The way you phrase it is a little deceptive imo. The OP has sent 4 letters to OMs wife, not 4 letters to OMs neighbors. The OP has sent 1 letter to OMs neighbors, and that letter was addressed to OM. So I think most reasonable people would interpret OMs wife's request to mean that she wishes that OP stop sending letters to her. And really, she doesn't have authority to request that OP not send letters to people other than herself.
> 
> Also, being sued for harassment and/or defamation of character is extremely unlikely to happen, because any letter would be a one time thing (ok, 2 if you count the first one, but still not harassment) and would just contain facts, anyway. The truth is the ultimate defense, as they say. And these types of lawsuits are expensive for the party doing the sueing and very rarely succeed.
> 
> As such I stand by my advice.


\

If you were sending me letters, and had sent *1* to the neighbors, I would ask you to stop. Even if it were about my wife cheating, I do not want the neighbors dragged into it.

If you continued to contact me, my wife, my kids, my neighbor, my dog, or my employer you would be receiving ugly looking legal papers from my lawyer.

Asking someone to stop contacting you is enough to set the line in the sand. Whatever the reason, this woman has asked OP to stop sending letters. If he does, he is harassing her, and she could start ugly expensive legal wheels in motion.

In addition, I see no benefit to OP to contact neighbors about posom. If I were posom, I would be very motivated to sue the living daylights out of OP.

Just my opinion.


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## Road Scholar

Shaggy said:


> Is there a point where you will nuke the OM at work? Or is that sacred ground that is safe for him?


There is a point and it is not sacred ground. I haven't decided yet whether I will or not. I may after my wife leaves the company. At that point, I really don't give a flying f*ck what happens to this guy, but would like to see him humiliated and lose his SVP position for what he has done to my life and for lying to me and not taking me seriously. 

As I type this I feel a very strong urge to ligth this guy up regardless the fallout to my wife.


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## Road Scholar

Thor said:


> Disagree. There is no reason to drag the neighbors into this now. It will only result in law suits for harassment.


I don't want to get myself into legal trouble and she sounded a little threatening so I don't want to push it on that front. His job is another story and he was fore warned about what I would do but did not listen.


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## Road Scholar

I had a thought the other day about getting toll records so I got online and was able to pull up her travels pretty well. It reveals additional trips and meetings I was not aware of. This has stirred up a lot of negative emotions in me. I'm not sure what to do at this point. Wrestling with D or R at this point. Thinking maybe separating to at min create space as well as send a stronger message. I'm really confused.

Apparently the day after I got my wake up call after a huge fight we had and stayed up all night talking, it was the first time I realized we were in serious trouble. I did not know about the affair yet, but we both decided to go to MC. I thought we were on our way to making things better. She went to see him the next day. I found out about the affair a day later. She went to see him the next day!

I'm not sure what to do next. Demand the timeline and tell her she has one shot to get it right - our marriage hangs in the balance? Do I let her know about the toll reports - show them to her? She doesn't want to come clean with everything obviously. Is that normal? I mean she is scared I will leave her I am sure of that. If she fears it will be over if I hear more than I can handle, is she trying to protect the relationship by witholding some of this. I know it sounds like I am making an excuse but in some way I understand why she is keeping some of this from me. Or am I just that f*cked up right now in my thinking?

I am 99% certain the affair is dead. I can't say the same for her feelings about the guy. I mean I really don't know. I believe she loves me. I believe she is sincere about reconciling. I also know she wants this to go away as fast as it can. She is humiliated. She hates what she did, but probably not as much as I do. I don't want to throw it in her face but she needs to know that I know. In a few years she may even look back on it fondly. Who knows? 

Anyhow I'm pretty confused. I know my options. Staying is a choice. Leaving is a choice. Both come with consequences. As I mentioned previously this is just more of the bad sh*t I already knew. It doesn't change much only gives me a clearer picture of what was taking place during that ugly time.


----------



## bfree

Road Scholar said:


> I had a thought the other day about getting toll records so I got online and was able to pull up her travels pretty well. It reveals additional trips and meetings I was not aware of. This has stirred up a lot of negative emotions in me. I'm not sure what to do at this point. Wrestling with D or R at this point. Thinking maybe separating to at min create space as well as send a stronger message. I'm really confused.
> 
> Apparently the day after I got my wake up call after a huge fight we had and stayed up all night talking, it was the first time I realized we were in serious trouble. I did not know about the affair yet, but we both decided to go to MC. I thought we were on our way to making things better. She went to see him the next day. I found out about the affair a day later. She went to see him the next day!
> 
> I'm not sure what to do next. Demand the timeline and tell her she has one shot to get it right - our marriage hangs in the balance? Do I let her know about the toll reports - show them to her? She doesn't want to come clean with everything obviously. Is that normal? I mean she is scared I will leave her I am sure of that. If she fears it will be over if I hear more than I can handle, is she trying to protect the relationship by witholding some of this. I know it sounds like I am making an excuse but in some way I understand why she is keeping some of this from me. Or am I just that f*cked up right now in my thinking?
> 
> I am 99% certain the affair is dead. I can't say the same for her feelings about the guy. I mean I really don't know. I believe she loves me. I believe she is sincere about reconciling. I also know she wants this to go away as fast as it can. She is humiliated. She hates what she did, but probably not as much as I do. I don't want to throw it in her face but she needs to know that I know. In a few years she may even look back on it fondly. Who knows?
> 
> Anyhow I'm pretty confused. I know my options. Staying is a choice. Leaving is a choice. Both come with consequences. As I mentioned previously this is just more of the bad sh*t I already knew. It doesn't change much only gives me a clearer picture of what was taking place during that ugly time.


In your conversations what does she say about how to rebuild the trust? What does she say about forgiving her? If she is dragging her feet on leaving that job and she is reluctant about writing the timeline what does she suggest would be an acceptable and effective way for you to be able to forgive her and trust her once again? Unless she has a better idea maybe you should make it clear to her that doing nothing is not an option?

And I must ask you this. Why are you dragging your feet on her leaving her job? Why haven't you demanded she quit now? Why are you allowing her to procrastinate on writing the timeline? Frankly what I'm seeing is that she is hiding her head in the sand and you are paralyzed by indecision. This is not the way to reconcile. This is what leads to divorce.


----------



## happyman64

RS

Demand the timeline.

Tell her this is not to embarrass her or to threaten D.

Tell her this is her chance to come clean and get everything out in the open.

And tell her not to lie to you anymore.

It is the lies that have consequences not the truth.

At least until you decide what to do with the truth.

Stay cool and calm.

HM


----------



## Summer4744

A lot of R depends on why she wants you. Is it because she loves you or because she fears losing a dependable provider.


----------



## Wazza

Don't tell her about the toll records. Don't tell her about any other sources of information you have.

Someone having an affair becomes a liar. She doesn't want to give you a timeline, therefore she is still not coming clean with the truth.

In order to rebuild trust, you need her to demonstrate trustworthiness. If she only confesses to things you know, she hasn't demonstrated trustworthiness. If she tells you a story that doesn't match up against the other evidence you have (such as toll records) then she hasn't demonstrates trustworthiness.

So you need to push her for the truth, and then verify it without telling her how.


----------



## Shaggy

I would tell her you can see via the toll charges when she went to be with him. Phrase it like that, but do not give her the data.

Then tell her that nothing has moved forward in the past weeks.

1. You are scheduling a polygraph for next week.
2. She needs to give you her timeline the day before the polygraph.
3 std test this week
4 She also needs to apply for jobs an give you a weekly report. 
5 She needs to set an end date after which she leaves the job regardless of having a new one.

And you need to tell her failure to meet goals and times means divorce


She isn't serious because she doesn't believe you will leave.


----------



## tribesman

Divorce divorce divorce!


----------



## Thor

It is common but not productive for the WS to not want to provide the detailed timeline.

Which book did she buy and read? The ones I am familiar with explain clearly the BS' need for total truth and transparency. If she read one of the infidelity books she should be informed about how you need her enthusiastic cooperation and how you need information. She should understand that the dishonesty and deception are huge major aspects of the hurt she has inflicted on you, and thus she needs to be openly and fully honest with you now.

Frankly, those toll records are a bit of DDay3 for you. This information proves some of what she told you is false. If I recall correctly she minimized the extent of the affair, which you now have hard evidence was more than she stated.

You have given her far more time than is reasonable to complete some tasks. She may not believe you are currently able to divorce her, and so she is weighing in her mind the odds of the best outcomes for her if she reveals nothing more vs revealing everything.


----------



## Shaggy

Question to ask her, and watch her reactions

Are you loyal to me or are you loyal to him?


----------



## Will_Kane

Road Scholar said:


> I had a thought the other day about getting toll records so I got online and was able to pull up her travels pretty well. It reveals additional trips and meetings I was not aware of.
> 
> I'm not sure what to do next. Demand the timeline and tell her she has one shot to get it right - our marriage hangs in the balance? Do I let her know about the toll reports - show them to her? She doesn't want to come clean with everything obviously. Is that normal? Or am I just that f*cked up right now in my thinking?
> 
> I am 99% certain the affair is dead. I can't say the same for her feelings about the guy. I mean I really don't know. I believe she loves me. I believe she is sincere about reconciling. I also know she wants this to go away as fast as it can. She is humiliated. She hates what she did, but probably not as much as I do. I don't want to throw it in her face but she needs to know that I know. In a few years she may even look back on it fondly. Who knows?
> 
> Anyhow I'm pretty confused. I know my options. Staying is a choice. Leaving is a choice. Both come with consequences. As I mentioned previously this is just more of the bad sh*t I already knew. It doesn't change much only gives me a clearer picture of what was taking place during that ugly time.


All of this is completely normal. You yourself posted a while back that you KNEW she had seen him 5-10 times since D-day 1, yet she only admitted to seeing him once.

All cheaters do this. It is called trickle truth and minimizing and rug sweeping.

Demand the timeline or you will file for divorce. Tell her forcefully that you want it to be accurate, but do not threaten any consequences if it is not, just say that you demand an ACCURATE timeline. The reason to not threaten consequences is because no matter how dire the consequences are, your wife will lie on the timeline. She cannot help herself. I won't call it human nature, but it is cheater's nature. Every cheater does it, with very, very few exceptions. DO NOT MENTION THE TOLL RECORDS. SHE WILL LIE ON THE TIMELINE. EXPECT IT. After she lies on the timeline, THEN you pull out the toll records and catch her in the lie. Then you make her re-do the timeline. Then she will lie on it again. This will happen 2, 3, or 4 times if your wife is typical, which so far she is the poster child for the typical cheater.

If you want a greater degree of honesty on the timeline, tell her that you are going to polygraph her on the key points of it - how many times they've hooked up since D-day 1 until D-day 2, the last time they saw each other, the last time they communicated with each other. Don't bluff, if you say you are going to do the polygraph, do it. Otherwise she will take advantage of you later knowing you're full of it when you threaten it.

None of this means that you won't reconcile. You will. It's just that this is how cheaters act, this is the course you have to take. SHE HAS TO OWN UP TO EVERYTHING SHE'S DONE, ADMIT TO IT, AND APOLOGIZE FOR *ALL* OF IT. 

It's like when you go to the doctor with a cold, he tells you it's going to take three days, then you'll have a cough for two weeks, if it lasts longer than that come back and see me. This is similar. This is how the disease called cheating plays out. Sure, there are colds that go away in a day, and some that take longer than two weeks. And there are cheaters who behave differently. But your wife is following the script to a T. How your wife is trickling out the truth, minimizing, delaying, rug sweeping - almost every cheater does this. It must be human nature. Let's call it cheater's nature.

Don't expect her to act like the mature, intelligent, rational, logical woman that you know she is. When it comes to the cheating, she is like a 15-year-old who got caught and will do or say anything to avoid the consequences.

I have posted all this before, more than once. Go back and read them again.

Lastly, she WILL get involved again in the affair if she continue to work there. It's a matter of time. IF your wife is typical, it will be 3, 4, or 5 weeks since D-day and initial no-contact until this happens. Your wife is acting busy with the resumes and the networking, but she is not getting out of there fast enough. If the affair starts up again, the chances of you saving your marriage decrease drastically. This is based on my experience reading these threads. The marriages that get saved, those are the ones where the wife leaves the job immediately, with nothing else lined up, or else within three weeks of D-day. After that, your chances get worse and worse each day.

She already has contacted him (or he her) for closure at work. Now that life is returning to "normal," they will be in contact a few more times because she is "worried about him," she is "wondering how he's doing," "she wonders how he withstood it from his wife finding out"; contact will increase until the affair starts up again.

I'm trying to help. This is your life, and your kids' lives your messing with.

There is a lot of pain and aggravation in getting your wife to do what you need her to do. You seem to want to talk rationally with her and reason with her about how it was wrong to cheat and she will leave the job and not contact him and tell you the truth, like you've always done with everything else with her. That would be easy and nice, but that's not how it actually works. We here have already done what you've done, and this is what we've found out. 

Being nice and mature and logical and reasonable WORKS WITH EVERYTHING ELSE, BUT NOT WITH CHEATING. She will not act rationally. Later, she will look back with deep regret for how she acted and she will be glad that you didn't back down. Now, she is just trying to cover her ass and get out with as little consequence as possible. No telling her family, no telling her work, no leaving the job until she has another one, just everything as normal, the only bad thing is that you are upset, but you never were a prime consideration for her during the affair, and she only has to look at you a few hours each night, so it's not that bad.

If you reconcile, in a few years (or maybe even sooner), she will deeply regret the affair, not remember it fondly.

MOST IMPORTANT THINGS:

1. Leave the job
2. Timeline


----------



## Wazza

Shaggy said:


> I would tell her you can see via the toll charges when she went to be with him. Phrase it like that, but do not give her the data.
> 
> Then tell her that nothing has moved forward in the past weeks.
> 
> 1. You are scheduling a polygraph for next week.
> 2. She needs to give you her timeline the day before the polygraph.
> 3 std test this week
> 4 She also needs to apply for jobs an give you a weekly report.
> 5 She needs to set an end date after which she leaves the job regardless of having a new one.
> 
> And you need to tell her failure to meet goals and times means divorce
> 
> 
> She isn't serious because she doesn't believe you will leave.


If she knows about the toll charges they have no use as a tool to keep an eye on things in future.


----------



## carmen ohio

Road Scholar said:


> I had a thought the other day about getting toll records so I got online and was able to pull up her travels pretty well. It reveals additional trips and meetings I was not aware of. This has stirred up a lot of negative emotions in me. I'm not sure what to do at this point. *Wrestling with D or R at this point.* Thinking maybe separating to at min create space as well as send a stronger message. I'm really confused.
> 
> Apparently the day after I got my wake up call after a huge fight we had and stayed up all night talking, it was the first time I realized we were in serious trouble. I did not know about the affair yet, but we both decided to go to MC. I thought we were on our way to making things better. She went to see him the next day. I found out about the affair a day later. She went to see him the next day!
> 
> *I'm not sure what to do next.* Demand the timeline and tell her she has one shot to get it right - our marriage hangs in the balance? Do I let her know about the toll reports - show them to her? She doesn't want to come clean with everything obviously. Is that normal? I mean she is scared I will leave her I am sure of that. If she fears it will be over if I hear more than I can handle, is she trying to protect the relationship by witholding some of this. I know it sounds like I am making an excuse but in some way I understand why she is keeping some of this from me. Or am I just that f*cked up right now in my thinking?
> 
> I am 99% certain the affair is dead. I can't say the same for her feelings about the guy. I mean I really don't know. * I believe she loves me. I believe she is sincere about reconciling.* I also know she wants this to go away as fast as it can. She is humiliated. She hates what she did, but probably not as much as I do. I don't want to throw it in her face but she needs to know that I know. In a few years she may even look back on it fondly. Who knows?
> 
> *Anyhow I'm pretty confused. I know my options. Staying is a choice. Leaving is a choice. Both come with consequences.* As I mentioned previously this is just more of the bad sh*t I already knew. It doesn't change much only gives me a clearer picture of what was taking place during that ugly time.


Dear Road Scholar,

You are not as much confused as you are paralyzed.

You say you are "[w]restling with D or R . . ." I disagree. You are wrestling with whether finally to insist that your WW tell you the full truth about her relationship with the OM or to continue to rugsweep it.

You have gotten lots of good and fairly consistent advice from numerous posters but, so far, have chosen to ignore much of it. There's really no point in repeating it -- go back and read your thread if you're interested.

IMO, your real problem is that you cannot accept the possibility of D. Hence, you dither about demanding the full truth from your WW and refuse to give her any real consequences for her infidelity because you know that, if you do, there is a chance that you will finally be forced you to make the decision you don't want to make.

Frankly, I don't think it matters much what you do at this point. If you demand the truth and learn that her betrayal is even worse than she led you to believe, you will likely find a way to rationalize it and, again, avoid making a hard decision. Of course, if you do nothing, you also avoid having to make a decision.

The question you need to answer is, can you live with not knowing exactly what happened between your WW and the OM, how she really feels about him and, most importantly, if she has decided to stay with you because she really loves you or because she doesn't feel she has an alternative (for now). As you think about this, and as I recommended before, please read the thread by love=pain (http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...eelings-changed-after-things-settle-down.html).

If you do want the truth, do not share any information that you have with your WW. The less she knows about what you know, the more likely you are to catch her in a lie, a half-truth or an omission.

You say you "believe" she loves you and that she is "sincere" about wanting to R. I hope you're right. Time will tell.


----------



## warlock07

> She doesn't want to come clean with everything obviously. Is that normal? I mean she is scared I will leave her I am sure of that. If she fears it will be over if I hear more than I can handle, is she trying to protect the relationship by witholding some of this.


Do you honestly believe this ?



> I know it sounds like I am making an excuse but in some way I understand why she is keeping some of this from me. Or am I just that f*cked up right now in my thinking?


yes. You are now moving into the denial stage now...


----------



## Will_Kane

The other posters are right about the toll records - don't tell your wife about them.

When you call her out on her lies, don't tell her how you know, just that you know.

You can point to the timeline and say confidently, I don't know the whole story, but I KNOW FOR SURE that some of this is just and out-and-out lie. Then demand she fix the lies.


----------



## Shaggy

RS - I really hope you succeed, but I gotta say it seems like your wife has you number. She plays you at her pace and her game rules.

Her putting you through 6 months of false R, while you bent over backwards is a great example if this.

I'm guessing you are uncomfortable with confrontation and ultimatums and you prefer to have open honest commitments.


----------



## bandit.45

His inability to confront and stand up for himself is one of the reasons she lost her respect and desire for him. Even though some won't admit it, most women favor a man who can handle himself in a conflict.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LongWalk

bfree said:


> Road Scholar said:
> 
> 
> 
> I had a thought the other day about getting toll records so I got online and was able to pull up her travels pretty well. It reveals additional trips and meetings I was not aware of. This has stirred up a lot of negative emotions in me. I'm not sure what to do at this point. Wrestling with D or R at this point. Thinking maybe separating to at min create space as well as send a stronger message. I'm really confused.
> 
> Apparently the day after I got my wake up call after a huge fight we had and stayed up all night talking, it was the first time I realized we were in serious trouble. I did not know about the affair yet, but we both decided to go to MC. I thought we were on our way to making things better. She went to see him the next day. I found out about the affair a day later. She went to see him the next day!
> 
> I'm not sure what to do next. Demand the timeline and tell her she has one shot to get it right - our marriage hangs in the balance? Do I let her know about the toll reports - show them to her? She doesn't want to come clean with everything obviously. Is that normal? I mean she is scared I will leave her I am sure of that. If she fears it will be over if I hear more than I can handle, is she trying to protect the relationship by witholding some of this. I know it sounds like I am making an excuse but in some way I understand why she is keeping some of this from me. Or am I just that f*cked up right now in my thinking?
> 
> I am 99% certain the affair is dead. I can't say the same for her feelings about the guy. I mean I really don't know. I believe she loves me. I believe she is sincere about reconciling. I also know she wants this to go away as fast as it can. She is humiliated. She hates what she did, but probably not as much as I do. I don't want to throw it in her face but she needs to know that I know. In a few years she may even look back on it fondly. Who knows?
> 
> Anyhow I'm pretty confused. I know my options. Staying is a choice. Leaving is a choice. Both come with consequences. As I mentioned previously this is just more of the bad sh*t I already knew. It doesn't change much only gives me a clearer picture of what was taking place during that ugly time.
> 
> 
> 
> In your conversations what does she say about how to rebuild the trust? What does she say about forgiving her? If she is dragging her feet on leaving that job and she is reluctant about writing the timeline what does she suggest would be an acceptable and effective way for you to be able to forgive her and trust her once again? Unless she has a better idea maybe you should make it clear to her that doing nothing is not an option?
> 
> And I must ask you this. Why are you dragging your feet on her leaving her job? Why haven't you demanded she quit now? Why are you allowing her to procrastinate on writing the timeline? Frankly what I'm seeing is that she is hiding her head in the sand and you are paralyzed by indecision. This is not the way to reconcile. This is what leads to divorce.
Click to expand...

Agree

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


----------



## LongWalk

You are getting all the right advice. Follow it. Be prepared up lose your marriage to save it. Don't tell about the toll records.

Every time after Dday that she put out for him, every orgasm they shared is a boot print on your heart. You need to turn those meetings into a disgusting memory for her.

Put the OM on Cheaterville. It works. Let all of the OM's friends and relative see him in public humiliation. Write a short, factual account. He will squirm and reach out to your wife and beg you to take it down. Do not remove it.

Your sex rank will rise above OM or at least you will change the direction they are moving.

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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## turnera

The problem is she hasn't hit rock bottom. She still thinks she has some control over you so she isn't fully committing to doing 'all it takes' to make up for her crime. IMO, she'll never reach that until you kick her out or disappear yourself.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

bandit.45 said:


> His inability to confront and stand up for himself is one of the reasons she lost her respect and desire for him. Even though some won't admit it, most women favor a man who can handle himself in a conflict.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So true. As an example, my wife has flat out told me several times that she could never be with someone that she could lead around by the nose and bend completely to her will. One of the reasons we have a good marriage is that we act as real checks and balances for each other in order to keep each other grounded and committed to each other. Just my 2 cents.


----------



## turnera

My DD23 refuses to date anyone who acts like that. Has broken up with guys because of it. Women HATE weak men. It literally makes women mad.


----------



## Shaggy

turnera said:


> My DD23 refuses to date anyone who acts like that. Has broken up with guys because of it. Women HATE weak men. It literally makes women mad.


Yet many women push, challenge, and undermine when a guy does lead, which slowly tricks some guys into becoming a doormat to keep the peace - not to mention all the tv shows showing doormat behavior over and over.


----------



## turnera

Yep. That's why she refuses to date anyone who (1) isn't confident and (2) doesn't have a laid-back personality to not take anything too seriously.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

Shaggy said:


> Yet many women push, challenge, and undermine when a guy does lead, which slowly tricks some guys into becoming a doormat to keep the peace - not to mention all the tv shows showing doormat behavior over and over.


Then I'm either very lucky or some of you guys are hanging out in the wrong areas. I'd say a minority of women may covertly try to transform men as a "challenge". However, I'd say the majority of women want a real partner that they can spend the rest of their life with - someone who can be strong, caring, dependable and sexually desirable. Early in a relationship, if a woman is pushing to assert her authority, I'd say it's more likely that she's trying to determine if she is with a pushover or someone that is willing to stand his ground. Generally this time period will not last too long. However, men need to use common sense too and if anyone finds himself in a relationship with a woman where it feels like a war just to maintain your dignity and place in the relationship, then use the fvcking sense you have and know when to break it off.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: No sex after her affair...*



Shaggy said:


> Yet many women push, challenge, and undermine when a guy does lead, which slowly tricks some guys into becoming a doormat to keep the peace - not to mention all the tv shows showing doormat behavior over and over.


Women like strong men. It's a biological evolutionary response. If a man isn't strong he cannot defend her and her children. It has been widely accepted that long term relationships like we have today were not the norm centuries ago. So women were always testing men to see if they were strong and remained strong. If a man weakened then he was no longer worthy. She then moved on to the stronger male. This is the origin of fitness testing that women tend to do today. A strong man will handle these tests well. A weak man will crumble and let her take over completely.


----------



## LongWalk

One of the reasons some wives are controlling is to prevent their husbands from leaving them. But they also limit drinking and other self destructive behavior.

As couples get older women are often in better shape and dominate due to the gender health advantage.

My brothers are both earning very money and have status jobs. Both are pvssy whipped. They would never cheat... Probably. One of my brothers has too much integrity. The other also, but he could be emotionally vulnerable in the wrong situation. His wife would never let that arise. She keeps him tired.

They know for sure in a divorce they would be shredded. They don't even dream of being free. And from a woman's POV why should she allow herself to be replaced by a younger more fertile competitor?

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


----------



## wilderness

Thor said:


> \
> 
> If you were sending me letters, and had sent *1* to the neighbors, I would ask you to stop. Even if it were about my wife cheating, I do not want the neighbors dragged into it.
> 
> If you continued to contact me, my wife, my kids, my neighbor, my dog, or my employer you would be receiving ugly looking legal papers from my lawyer.
> 
> Asking someone to stop contacting you is enough to set the line in the sand. Whatever the reason, this woman has asked OP to stop sending letters. If he does, he is harassing her, and she could start ugly expensive legal wheels in motion.
> 
> In addition, I see no benefit to OP to contact neighbors about posom. If I were posom, I would be very motivated to sue the living daylights out of OP.
> 
> Just my opinion.



A threatening letter from a lawyer is not a consequence. Neither is a lawsuit that has virtually no chance of success. IMO you are vastly overstating the risks, here.


----------



## hopefulgirl

So much misogynistic baloney. Men trickle truth too at this stage. 

A betrayed spouse of either gender who has some hope of R and who detects some hints of genuine remorse in their wayward spouse will sense that there's a lot of internal turmoil and a huge amount of shame mixed in, so this "demanding" a timeline that so many here are calling for would be like pinning on the scarlet letter. Putting pen to paper when someone is still coming out of the fog AND actually feeling a great deal of shame will be an excruciating experience. The thumbs down folks who like to see the lions chew up the person in the ring are drooling for fresh wayward meat - let's humiliate another one, inflict a lot of pain.

Demanding information is NOT what Shirley Glass advises according to her book NOT Just Friends. TAM people may have some experience (a lot of them are divorce experiences, by the way), but SHE has a lot of research to back her up and she's the generally recognized expert in helping couples heal from infidelity. She advises:

"Although it's best to delay discussing the affair until you are on more solid ground, it's unrealistic to expect a sealed lid. Lifting the lid just a little bit can relieve some of the pressure that builds up over unanswered questions. It's important to share a reconstruction of events that allows the betrayed partner to establish the reality of the affair. Betrayed partners have to know the extent of the deception so they can understand what has happened. This means full disclosure of significant facts."

The way to do that is not by "demanding" a timeline or giving an assignment (like you're the boss of her), but "both partners need to get out their calendars, discuss the receipts, and review the cell phone calls." She emphasizes that "Your goal is to shift from an adversarial process to an empathetic process for discussing the story of the affair."

This stage, she says, is the time to focus on "repairing the couple and building goodwill." All this "demanding" talk has nothing to do with repairing or reconciliation.


----------



## Nucking Futs

wilderness said:


> A threatening letter from a lawyer is not a consequence. Neither is a lawsuit that has virtually no chance of success. IMO you are vastly overstating the risks, here.


Even if the risks are overstated, what's the reward? It would have to be pretty good since you're pushing so hard for something the op has already said he's not going to do.


----------



## Thor

No, I am stating that I would start the legal process immediately if you sent another letter after I asked you to stop. You would probably have to hire a lawyer, at least most people would at least consult with a lawyer. I would probably have you served with some form of restraining order. If you violated it I would pursue every legal remedy.

Because you are describing harassment. Sending salacious details to the neighbors who have no connection to the infidelity is intended to create distress. This is totally different than normal exposure to people who have a part in the drama, such as an employer where the affair was taking place.

OP could take the chance that further contact may benefit his marriage and is worth trying. His call.


----------



## wilderness

hopefulgirl said:


> So much misogynistic baloney. Men trickle truth too at this stage.
> 
> A betrayed spouse of either gender who has some hope of R and who detects some hints of genuine remorse in their wayward spouse will sense that there's a lot of internal turmoil and a huge amount of shame mixed in, so this "demanding" a timeline that so many here are calling for would be like pinning on the scarlet letter. Putting pen to paper when someone is still coming out of the fog AND actually feels a great deal of shame will be an excruciating experience. The thumbs down folks who like to see the lions chew up the person in the ring are drooling for fresh wayward meat - let's humiliate another one, inflict a lot of pain.
> 
> Demanding information is NOT what Shirley Glass advises according to her book NOT Just Friends. TAM people may have some experience (a lot of them are divorce experiences, by the way), but SHE has a lot of research to back her up and she's the generally recognized expert in helping couples heal from infidelity. She advises:
> 
> "Although it's best to delay discussing the affair until you are on more solid ground, it's unrealistic to expect a sealed lid. Lifting the lid just a little bit can relieve some of the pressure that builds up over unanswered questions. It's important to share a reconstruction of events that allows the betrayed partner to establish the reality of the affair. Betrayed partners have to know the extent of the deception so they can understand what has happened. This means full disclosure of significant facts."
> 
> The way to do that is not by "demanding" a timeline or giving an assignment (like you're the boss of her), but "both partners need to get out their calendars, discuss the receipts, and review the cell phone calls." She emphasizes that "Your goal is to shift from an adversarial process to an empathetic process for discussing the story of the affair."
> 
> This stage, she says, is the time to focus on "repairing the couple and building goodwill." All this "demanding" talk has nothing to do with repairing or reconciliation.


This has to be the worst post that I've seen in a long time. Demanding a time line has nothing to do with 'being the boss of' someone. That's the same logic that says that when a BS insists that the WS stop having sex with another person, they are controlling.
You have every right in the world to know what happened during your wife's affair. I'll go one step further: as long as she doesn't disclose this info, which you fully need in order to heal AND to know what needs to be forgiven, your wife is still engaged in the affair. The secret remains between her and OM.

Shirley Glass is totally wrong on this one, imo. "Building goodwill" can not be accomplished as long as this dirty little secret remains. It's impossible. In fact, your wife is doing the opposite, building _badwill_. When all the dust is settled, if you reconcile (or even if you don't), if you are like many you will look back at this time and still be pissed that your wife has been so defiant about this timeline. It is _critical_ that she share it ASAP.

Last thing, perhaps most important. Please do not anyone tell you that asking or even demanding a timeline has anything to do with being a misogynist. That is patently ridiculous.


----------



## wilderness

Thor said:


> No, I am stating that I would start the legal process immediately if you sent another letter after I asked you to stop. You would probably have to hire a lawyer, at least most people would at least consult with a lawyer. I would probably have you served with some form of restraining order. If you violated it I would pursue every legal remedy.
> 
> Because you are describing harassment. Sending salacious details to the neighbors who have no connection to the infidelity is intended to create distress. This is totally different than normal exposure to people who have a part in the drama, such as an employer where the affair was taking place.
> 
> OP could take the chance that further contact may benefit his marriage and is worth trying. His call.


Sending 1 letter is not harassment. Period.


----------



## Wazza

hopefulgirl said:


> So much misogynistic baloney. Men trickle truth too at this stage.
> 
> A betrayed spouse of either gender who has some hope of R and who detects some hints of genuine remorse in their wayward spouse will sense that there's a lot of internal turmoil and a huge amount of shame mixed in, so this "demanding" a timeline that so many here are calling for would be like pinning on the scarlet letter. Putting pen to paper when someone is still coming out of the fog AND actually feeling a great deal of shame will be an excruciating experience. The thumbs down folks who like to see the lions chew up the person in the ring are drooling for fresh wayward meat - let's humiliate another one, inflict a lot of pain.
> 
> Demanding information is NOT what Shirley Glass advises according to her book NOT Just Friends. TAM people may have some experience (a lot of them are divorce experiences, by the way), but SHE has a lot of research to back her up and she's the generally recognized expert in helping couples heal from infidelity. She advises:
> 
> "Although it's best to delay discussing the affair until you are on more solid ground, it's unrealistic to expect a sealed lid. Lifting the lid just a little bit can relieve some of the pressure that builds up over unanswered questions. It's important to share a reconstruction of events that allows the betrayed partner to establish the reality of the affair. Betrayed partners have to know the extent of the deception so they can understand what has happened. This means full disclosure of significant facts."
> 
> The way to do that is not by "demanding" a timeline or giving an assignment (like you're the boss of her), but "both partners need to get out their calendars, discuss the receipts, and review the cell phone calls." She emphasizes that "Your goal is to shift from an adversarial process to an empathetic process for discussing the story of the affair."
> 
> This stage, she says, is the time to focus on "repairing the couple and building goodwill." All this "demanding" talk has nothing to do with repairing or reconciliation.


There's a balance.

On the one hand, my wife suffers terribly from the guilt of her affair. Your scarlet letter point you make is right on the money in her case.

On the other hand, she hates confrontation and will lie to avoid it. During the affair, she made all sorts of "it's over" assurances that in the end were worthless for the longest time.

And I never got the facts on significant events, which I think will eat at me for the rest of my life.

I think there is a strong risk RS's wife is still torn (at this stage of things my wife was) and it seems obvious that she is not being forthcoming with significant details. Therefore she is still adversarial.

Hence the need to challenge her on some of the lies. It's a make or break time. In my case the marriage only survived it because I stayed for the kids, and even though things are good now, it still hurts.


----------



## Thor

wilderness said:


> Sending 1 letter is not harassment. Period.


OP has sent FOUR letters, not one. He sent one of those letters through the neighbor. Posom's W has made it clear she does not want any further letters sent.

Any contact after a request to be left alone is grounds for harassment.

The next letter will be the fifth, not the first.


----------



## Nucking Futs

wilderness said:


> Sending 1 letter is not harassment. Period.


Your opinion that it's not harrassment is not going to stop someone with a different opinion from filing a suit that you'll have to spend time and money defending, even if it gets dismissed. So I ask you again, what's the reward for following this advice that you're so sure is good but everyone else is equally sure is bad. How is it going to help the OP?


----------



## harrybrown

She still has not given you a timeline. 

Give her a timeline that it is time for divorce.

And go after the POSOM.


----------



## Shaggy

Misogyny is the hatred of women, the deliberate attack upon them for being a woman.

My comments are nothing of the sort. It is not misogynistic to observe that in male - female relationships the norm in our culture and even our species is for the male to act in role of defender, protector, and even leader.

That's not the same a saying dictator, enslaver, tyrant which is what the anti men crusaders would label each role.

It's also not misogynistic to warn men that many women will say they want a strong man, but then will test him by challenging him even fighting him if he asserts himself in anyway, and that in many such situations the guy may choose to be more passive, and submissive to his wife to keep the peace, only for both of them to find that she no longer desires to be either him because he has become a doormat by his own choice.


----------



## Wazza

harrybrown said:


> She still has not given you a timeline.
> 
> Give her a timeline that it is time for divorce.
> 
> And go after the POSOM.


The timeline is a tool, a means to an end. There may be other ways to accomplish the real purpose, which is to get back to a place of truth and trust.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: No sex after her affair...*



Wazza said:


> The timeline is a tool, a means to an end. There may be other ways to accomplish the real purpose, which is to get back to a place of truth and trust.


I'm more concerned with the fact that she still works with her AP. That to me would be the primary issue and I would have insisted she quit long before today.


----------



## Will_Kane

hopefulgirl said:


> So much misogynistic baloney. Men trickle truth too at this stage.
> 
> A betrayed spouse of either gender who has some hope of R and who detects some hints of genuine remorse in their wayward spouse will sense that there's a lot of internal turmoil and a huge amount of shame mixed in, so this "demanding" a timeline that so many here are calling for would be like pinning on the scarlet letter. Putting pen to paper when someone is still coming out of the fog AND actually feeling a great deal of shame will be an excruciating experience. The thumbs down folks who like to see the lions chew up the person in the ring are drooling for fresh wayward meat - let's humiliate another one, inflict a lot of pain.
> 
> Demanding information is NOT what Shirley Glass advises according to her book NOT Just Friends. TAM people may have some experience (a lot of them are divorce experiences, by the way), but SHE has a lot of research to back her up and she's the generally recognized expert in helping couples heal from infidelity. She advises:
> 
> "Although it's best to delay discussing the affair until you are on more solid ground, it's unrealistic to expect a sealed lid. Lifting the lid just a little bit can relieve some of the pressure that builds up over unanswered questions. *It's important to share a reconstruction of events that allows the betrayed partner to establish the reality of the affair. Betrayed partners have to know the extent of the deception so they can understand what has happened. This means full disclosure of significant facts*."
> 
> The way to do that is not by "demanding" a timeline or giving an assignment (like you're the boss of her), but "both partners need to get out their calendars, discuss the receipts, and review the cell phone calls." She emphasizes that "Your goal is to shift from an adversarial process to an empathetic process for discussing the story of the affair."
> 
> This stage, she says, is the time to focus on "repairing the couple and *building goodwill*." All this "demanding" talk has nothing to do with repairing or reconciliation.


The original poster had a "D-Day 1" about six months ago. He talked and "shared" with his wife at that time. She lied, told him zero "significant facts," and continued the affair.

Now the original poster has found out that "significant fact," that the affair never ended, thanks entirely to the advice given by the posters on this forum, and there has been a "D-Day 2."

The original poster has consistently posted that he feels his wife is sincerely remorseful; he also has consistently posted that he believes she still is lying about many "significant facts." Since D-Day 2, his wife has told him she had not met up with the other man for sex in the past six months since D-Day 1. Now she has told him that she did, in fact, meet up with other man since then, but "only once." The original poster doesn't believe that, and also thinks his wife may not be telling him many other things. She has told him, "what difference will it make if you know?"

He already had asked her point blank, "were there more hook-ups?" and she said, "no." Now, the original poster has found evidence that makes it almost certain that his wife has, in fact, lied to him again and there were more hook-ups. He wants the truth, and he wants her to stop lying.

On top of that, most of us posting here can tell from our experience that she continues to lie and drag her feet. Thus, some of us believe she should write a timeline. If not write a timeline, then tell him the truth. Which so far she has agreed to do, then lied anyway. 

What does Shirley Glass say about this situation? Is this lying that his wife is doing part of "building goodwill"?


----------



## wilderness

Nucking Futs said:


> Your opinion that it's not harrassment is not going to stop someone with a different opinion from filing a suit that you'll have to spend time and money defending, even if it gets dismissed. So I ask you again, what's the reward for following this advice that you're so sure is good but everyone else is equally sure is bad. How is it going to help the OP?


I disagree. It is common sense that 1 letter is not harassment. It is common sense that people have no right to tell someone not to send a letter to someone other than themselves. It's common sense that this lawsuit will fail. Does that mean 100% it won't be filed? I won't say never, because people do crazy things in this world. But I will say that it's more than safe to assume it won't happen. I used to be in judgment industry. These types of lawsuits are _rare._ The ones that do get filed are almost always legit. Maybe if he sent 10 letters to the neighbor, he's have something to worry about. Not 1 (plus 1 addressed to OM).
As to what he has to gain, as I've already stated if someone sent a letter to my next door neighbor for _anything_, 
it would make me uncomfortable. It establishes the affair as a bad place to be. It's a consequence to OMs actions.


----------



## Nucking Futs

wilderness said:


> I disagree. It is common sense that 1 letter is not harassment. It is common sense that people have no right to tell someone not to send a letter to someone other than themselves. It's common sense that this lawsuit will fail. Does that mean 100% it won't be filed? I won't say never, because people do crazy things in this world. But I will say that it's more than safe to assume it won't happen. I used to be in judgment industry. These types of lawsuits are _rare._ The ones that do get filed are almost always legit. Maybe if he sent 10 letters to the neighbor, he's have something to worry about. Not 1 (plus 1 addressed to OM).
> As to what he has to gain, as I've already stated if someone sent a letter to my next door neighbor for _anything_,
> it would make me uncomfortable. It establishes the affair as a bad place to be. It's a consequence to OMs actions.


So in your opinion the legal system is based on common sense? That would be nice if it was true. Regardless, the op has already rejected your suggestion and no one has agreed with you. How about letting it go this time.


----------



## wilderness

Nucking Futs said:


> So in your opinion the legal system is based on common sense? That would be nice if it was true. Regardless, the op has already rejected your suggestion and no one has agreed with you. How about letting it go this time.


The legal system is not based on common sense, that's not the point. The point is that it's a pain in the neck to file a civil lawsuit and they ALL have low probabilities of success...even the ones that are legit. As such, it is not likely at all that sending 1 letter will result in a lawsuit.
For some reason, those advocating the opposite seem to have an irrational fear of something that practically is not going to happen.


----------



## Wazza

wilderness said:


> The legal system is not based on common sense, that's not the point. The point is that it's a pain in the neck to file a civil lawsuit and they ALL have low probabilities of success...even the ones that are legit. As such, it is not likely at all that sending 1 letter will result in a lawsuit.
> For some reason, those advocating the opposite seem to have an irrational fear of something that practically is not going to happen.


I think the key point is your approach caused some serious pain for you. Jail time. It you think it was worth it for you I respect that, but I scratch my head when you advise others how safe the advice is.


----------



## wilderness

Wazza said:


> I think the key point is your approach caused some serious pain for you. Jail time. It you think it was worth it for you I respect that, but I scratch my head when you advise others how safe the advice is.


No, sir. It wasn't my approach that caused the pain, it was the false allegations of my wife and her family. The way things are nowadays, anybody can make a false allegation and say _anything_ and it is very difficult to defend. I don't think it's advisable and/or reasonable to NOT do something under the irrational fear that as a result one will have false allegations levied against them. Truthfully, if there is one thing I learned about prison, it's that my case was the _exception _and not the rule. Most people do not have the will to carry out that type of evil against an innocent person.


----------



## LongWalk

hopefulgirl said:


> So much misogynistic baloney. Men trickle truth too at this stage.
> 
> A betrayed spouse of either gender who has some hope of R and who detects some hints of genuine remorse in their wayward spouse will sense that there's a lot of internal turmoil and a huge amount of shame mixed in, so this "demanding" a timeline that so many here are calling for would be like pinning on the scarlet letter. Putting pen to paper when someone is still coming out of the fog AND actually feeling a great deal of shame will be an excruciating experience. The thumbs down folks who like to see the lions chew up the person in the ring are drooling for fresh wayward meat - let's humiliate another one, inflict a lot of pain.
> 
> Demanding information is NOT what Shirley Glass advises according to her book NOT Just Friends. TAM people may have some experience (a lot of them are divorce experiences, by the way), but SHE has a lot of research to back her up and she's the generally recognized expert in helping couples heal from infidelity. She advises:
> 
> "Although it's best to delay discussing the affair until you are on more solid ground, it's unrealistic to expect a sealed lid. Lifting the lid just a little bit can relieve some of the pressure that builds up over unanswered questions. It's important to share a reconstruction of events that allows the betrayed partner to establish the reality of the affair. Betrayed partners have to know the extent of the deception so they can understand what has happened. * This means full disclosure of significant facts*."
> 
> The way to do that is not by "demanding" a timeline or giving an assignment (like you're the boss of her), but "both partners need to get out their calendars, discuss the receipts, and review the cell phone calls." She emphasizes that "Your goal is to shift from an adversarial process to an empathetic process for discussing the story of the affair."
> 
> This stage, she says, is the time to focus on "repairing the couple and building goodwill." All this "demanding" talk has nothing to do with repairing or reconciliation.



From the first post:



> We are mildly affectionate. We cuddle in bed. We kiss but not passionately anymore. She stops it from going anywhere. Bottom line *no sex in nearly 5 months* even though we were still having sex during her 2 month affair (as far as I know). I haven't pressed for many details but I know enough. I know his name and where he lives. they worked together. I sometimes think about blowing up his life like he did to mine but sent him a text as soon as I found out and told him if he ever spoke to my wife again I would do just that. no evidence he hasn't complied. *the no sex thing is killing me.* I'm here trying to work **** out and she needs to feel closer to me to have sex with me. Her husband (mostly good) of 14 years and together for about 20. *Says she's not feeling it. Struggling with how she feels about me and doesn't feel close to me. I'm trying to be patient and give her time and let her work through this and "put love first" build positive momentum and allow her infatuation with him pass*.





> I had a thought the other day about getting toll records so I got online and was able to pull up her travels pretty well. It reveals additional trips and meetings I was not aware of. This has stirred up a lot of negative emotions in me. I'm not sure what to do at this point. Wrestling with D or R at this point. Thinking maybe separating to at min create space as well as send a stronger message. I'm really confused.
> 
> Apparently the day after I got my wake up call after a huge fight *we had and stayed up all night talking, it was the first time I realized we were in serious trouble. I did not know about the affair yet, but we both decided to go to MC. I thought we were on our way to making things better. She went to see him the next day. I found out about the affair a day later. She went to see him the next day!*


What do you suggest Hopefulgirl?


----------



## Thor

wilderness said:


> I disagree. It is common sense that 1 letter is not harassment. It is common sense that people have no right to tell someone not to send a letter to someone other than themselves. It's common sense that this lawsuit will fail.


This is not a case of 1 letter, it is a case where 4 have already been sent. 

If there is anything at all put in a letter which is not provable fact in a court of law with admissible evidence, it becomes a case of defamation of character.

I can only tell you what I would do if such letters were sent about my wife cheating. If you had sent 4 letters already and I had asked you to not have any more contact with me or my family or my neighbors, I would hire a lawyer to send you some really nasty letters which you would likely have to hire a lawyer to respond to. If there were any chance of a law suit going through, I would take you to court.

Why? Because it is harassing me and it is harassing my family. It may be disrupting my chances of R.

If I asked you to stop sending letters and you send just 1 more, you are harassing me according to the law.


----------



## tom67

Will_Kane said:


> The original poster had a "D-Day 1" about six months ago. He talked and "shared" with his wife at that time. She lied, told him zero "significant facts," and continued the affair.
> 
> Now the original poster has found out that "significant fact," that the affair never ended, thanks entirely to the advice given by the posters on this forum, and there has been a "D-Day 2."
> 
> The original poster has consistently posted that he feels his wife is sincerely remorseful; he also has consistently posted that he believes she still is lying about many "significant facts." Since D-Day 2, his wife has told him she had not met up with the other man for sex in the past six months since D-Day 1. Now she has told him that she did, in fact, meet up with other man since then, but "only once." The original poster doesn't believe that, and also thinks his wife may not be telling him many other things. She has told him, "what difference will it make if you know?"
> 
> He already had asked her point blank, "were there more hook-ups?" and she said, "no." Now, the original poster has found evidence that makes it almost certain that his wife has, in fact, lied to him again and there were more hook-ups. He wants the truth, and he wants her to stop lying.
> 
> On top of that, most of us posting here can tell from our experience that she continues to lie and drag her feet. Thus, some of us believe she should write a timeline. If not write a timeline, then tell him the truth. Which so far she has agreed to do, then lied anyway.
> 
> What does Shirley Glass say about this situation? Is this lying that his wife is doing part of "building goodwill"?


Time for a timeline

Time for a polygraph
Or divorce really simple.


----------



## hopefulgirl

LongWalk said:


> From the first post:
> 
> What do you suggest Hopefulgirl?


First, let me respond to those took offense to my point about the misogynistic take on women and trickle truth. Men do trickle truth this soon after D-Day too. Should women betrayed spouses who have foot dragging husbands be looking for covert plans that have something to do with the husbands trying to manipulate us for any reason OTHER than the fact that they've just been caught cheating?? (Like, checking out our reactions to test our suitability as a wife, or some such nonsense?) The discussion was veering off into a theoretical area that smacked of a general distrust of women (one of the definitions of misogyny), suggesting that women are scheming and playing SPECIAL manipulative tricks when THEY trickle truth. Do you think trickle truth is more "pure" when men do it??

Warning RS that his wife may have all these other ulterior motives does NOT promote reconciliation. It's all theory anyway - you can't prove it, and you certainly don't know his wife or if she has "extra" motives aside from the usual cheater stuff.

Men AND women trickle truth soon after D-Day - period. They are in the fog and still in damage control mode and they're going to try to protect themselves and some even lie to themselves by convincing themselves they're protecting US by not telling the full truth. In other words, they're still messed up.

As for what I'd suggest, I think RS needs time to think about R or D. He needs to collect information, and he can let his wife know that as of right now, he's up in the air and it could go either way. He should let her know he needs to get legal information in case he decides on D (not the same as filing, which I understand is a big step for a Catholic). So going to an attorney would be part of the information gathering, and it might also help to hasten the "fog clearing." But he needs to let her know that R is still a possibility, and continue to do fun, caring activities together with the idea of repairing the couple in case R is the way it goes. 

After the trip to the lawyer, other information might be more forthcoming. The fact that his wife bought and read How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair is a good start; I would suggest that RS read it and highlight parts HE thinks are important, and ask her to read those parts again. After she's done that, I think he should ask her to read the parts he underlined in the first 4 pages of Chapter 5 out loud to him. That's the chapter titled "Undoing the Damage from Your Lies and Rationalizations." By sitting together (instead of "demanding" that she write something down and hand it in to him), they are less adversarial but hearing the material as the therapist author explains how sharing this information is healing. Then I think it would be good for RS to say he'd like an honest answer about the first and last dates of the PA - as the book says, "tell no more lies." The in-between dates could be filled in at another time, depending on how heavy that end date discussion is (it could get rough, if it's really recent).


----------



## theroad

WW still works with the OM. And people are complaining about that the WW will not write a timeline.


:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

I'm exhausted from all that ROTFALMAO'ing.


----------



## Wazza

Hopefulgirl. The problem is that some wayward spouses come clean and others don't. You need a way to work out if your wife has come clean.

23 years ago my wife sustained lie after lie for maybe 8 months, until I stopped asking and gave up. Stayed for the kids. A year and a half ago I opened the topic again, and she lied again. Her motives are "pure" in her eyes, protecting my feelings.....but I don't know if I have 99.9% of the truth or 0.0001%. And it matters to me. But there's nothing I can do..too late. A degree of limbo for the rest of my life, whatever choices I make.

My problem with your approach is that, while I agree we don't know what her motivations are, I think it's important to establish whether she has started to come clean while you can still check.


----------



## LongWalk

Hopefulgirl, you write:



> But he needs to let her know that R is still a possibility, and continue to do fun, caring activities together with the idea of repairing the couple in case R is the way it goes.


They are in R, but they have not had sex for 5 months. For men sex is a caring activity. The obstacles to intimacy are two fold:

1) She still belongs to OM in her heart
2) She is not attracted to her husband

If the facts about the affair come out, won't it be easier for them to face this?


----------



## Nucking Futs

LongWalk said:


> Hopefulgirl, you write:
> 
> 
> 
> *They are in R*, but they have not had sex for 5 months. For men sex is a caring activity. The obstacles to intimacy are two fold:
> 
> 1) She still belongs to OM in her heart
> 2) She is not attracted to her husband
> 
> If the facts about the affair come out, won't it be easier for them to face this?


I disagree with the part in bold. They're in false R, she's still at least mentally in the affair.


----------



## Shaggy

Does your fee gave vacation or personal leave time she can take?

Have her rake it now AND use that time to go full out in her job search. Lots of places are now in hiring mode because they've gut their 2014 budget done and they need to begin filing the jobs they've been authorized to hire for. They want to get as much for before the holidays as possible.

So there is a sweet spot for professional job hunting right now.


----------



## hopefulgirl

I noticed in one recent post that RS mentioned something about how R was going. Previously he'd been talking about being undecided. I think if he's calling this phase R, either to himself or out loud to his wife, that's a mistake. I think it's too soon for that, especially after the false R before. 

They've been having sex, so that's a significant change that's taken place.

As for her quitting the job before she has another one, both of them are hesitant on that front, and understandably so - if there's a divorce and she doesn't have another job, that's not a good spot to be in, and if they do try to reconcile they appear to need the two incomes so they would have financial stress on top of the stress they've got going on right now. It's easy in the abstract to advise somebody else to tell his wife she has to quit her job or else, but in the real world it isn't always that simple.

Once he has more information - legal advice about divorce, plus they've sat down with a calendar and he's satisfied that he's been told at least the true start and end dates of the PA - he may be ready to declare that he's really ready for R. THEN they can figure out together how they might be able to afford living on his salary alone so she can quit ASAP (borrow $, move, etc.). Or if he's still undecided a few weeks from now she might have another job by then - that would be great!


----------



## wilderness

hopefulgirl said:


> First, let me respond to those took offense to my point about the misogynistic take on women and trickle truth. Men do trickle truth this soon after D-Day too. Should women betrayed spouses who have foot dragging husbands be looking for covert plans that have something to do with the husbands trying to manipulate us for any reason OTHER than the fact that they've just been caught cheating?? (Like, checking out our reactions to test our suitability as a wife, or some such nonsense?) The discussion was veering off into a theoretical area that smacked of a general distrust of women (one of the definitions of misogyny), suggesting that women are scheming and playing SPECIAL manipulative tricks when THEY trickle truth. Do you think trickle truth is more "pure" when men do it??
> 
> Warning RS that his wife may have all these other ulterior motives does NOT promote reconciliation. It's all theory anyway - you can't prove it, and you certainly don't know his wife or if she has "extra" motives aside from the usual cheater stuff.
> 
> Men AND women trickle truth soon after D-Day - period. They are in the fog and still in damage control mode and they're going to try to protect themselves and some even lie to themselves by convincing themselves they're protecting US by not telling the full truth. In other words, they're still messed up.
> 
> As for what I'd suggest, I think RS needs time to think about R or D. He needs to collect information, and he can let his wife know that as of right now, he's up in the air and it could go either way. He should let her know he needs to get legal information in case he decides on D (not the same as filing, which I understand is a big step for a Catholic). So going to an attorney would be part of the information gathering, and it might also help to hasten the "fog clearing." But he needs to let her know that R is still a possibility, and continue to do fun, caring activities together with the idea of repairing the couple in case R is the way it goes.
> 
> After the trip to the lawyer, other information might be more forthcoming. The fact that his wife bought and read How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair is a good start; I would suggest that RS read it and highlight parts HE thinks are important, and ask her to read those parts again. After she's done that, I think he should ask her to read the parts he underlined in the first 4 pages of Chapter 5 out loud to him. That's the chapter titled "Undoing the Damage from Your Lies and Rationalizations." By sitting together (instead of "demanding" that she write something down and hand it in to him), they are less adversarial but hearing the material as the therapist author explains how sharing this information is healing. Then I think it would be good for RS to say he'd like an honest answer about the first and last dates of the PA - as the book says, "tell no more lies." The in-between dates could be filled in at another time, depending on how heavy that end date discussion is (it could get rough, if it's really recent).


The reason the relationship is adversarial is because of his wife's affair, not because of his 'demands'. In my opinion he should be insisting (or 'demanding' if you will) that his wife quit her job tomorrow AND that she produce a full timeline tomorrow. If I was OP, I would also want to know how his wife plans to replenish the family funds that will be depleted due to her affair and the potential loss of income that switching jobs creates.


----------



## Kallan Pavithran

Road Scholar said:


> There is a point and it is not sacred ground. *I haven't decided yet whether I will or not*. I may after my wife leaves the company. At that point, I really don't give a flying f*ck what happens to this guy, but would like to see him humiliated and lose his SVP position for what he has done to my life and for lying to me and not taking me seriously.
> 
> As I type this I feel a very strong urge to ligth this guy up regardless the fallout to my wife.




Your wife and OM met and had sex even after you confronted her. He was aware of the fact that you know, still he didnt gave a fooook about you or your marriage but even after six months of false R you are not yet decided about exposing him.REALLY?

Stop dreaming and act.


----------



## Thor

hopefulgirl said:


> As for her quitting the job before she has another one, both of them are hesitant on that front, and understandably so - if there's a divorce and she doesn't have another job, that's not a good spot to be in, and if they do try to reconcile they appear to need the two incomes so they would have financial stress on top of the stress they've got going on right now. It's easy in the abstract to advise somebody else to tell his wife she has to quit her job or else, but in the real world it isn't always that simple.


I agree with your logic. The practicalities of finance are important. For some people it may make sense to quit the job instantly, but for others it may not. In this case there is false R plus a lot of other questions, so I agree that her staying employed is a logical priority.

What I think is missing from her though is a sense of urgency to look for another job. It doesn't sound as if she is making an all-out effort to find a new job. If she were really hitting it hard to find the new job I would feel much better about her staying where she is temporarily.

As it is, I think it is evidence of false R.


----------



## LongWalk

Cheaterville works. Vulgar, sure. But it a blow torch.


----------



## Thorburn

Road Scholar said:


> I had a thought the other day about getting toll records so I got online and was able to pull up her travels pretty well. It reveals additional trips and meetings I was not aware of. This has stirred up a lot of negative emotions in me. I'm not sure what to do at this point. Wrestling with D or R at this point. Thinking maybe separating to at min create space as well as send a stronger message. I'm really confused.
> 
> Apparently the day after I got my wake up call after a huge fight we had and stayed up all night talking, it was the first time I realized we were in serious trouble. I did not know about the affair yet, but we both decided to go to MC. I thought we were on our way to making things better. She went to see him the next day. I found out about the affair a day later. She went to see him the next day!
> 
> I'm not sure what to do next. Demand the timeline and tell her she has one shot to get it right - our marriage hangs in the balance? Do I let her know about the toll reports - show them to her? She doesn't want to come clean with everything obviously. Is that normal? I mean she is scared I will leave her I am sure of that. If she fears it will be over if I hear more than I can handle, is she trying to protect the relationship by witholding some of this. I know it sounds like I am making an excuse but in some way I understand why she is keeping some of this from me. Or am I just that f*cked up right now in my thinking?
> 
> I am 99% certain the affair is dead. I can't say the same for her feelings about the guy. I mean I really don't know. I believe she loves me. I believe she is sincere about reconciling. I also know she wants this to go away as fast as it can. She is humiliated. She hates what she did, but probably not as much as I do. I don't want to throw it in her face but she needs to know that I know. In a few years she may even look back on it fondly. Who knows?
> 
> Anyhow I'm pretty confused. I know my options. Staying is a choice. Leaving is a choice. Both come with consequences. As I mentioned previously this is just more of the bad sh*t I already knew. It doesn't change much only gives me a clearer picture of what was taking place during that ugly time.


Confronting with evidence is a two edged sword. I did it. My wife denied or said she does not remember. Yet it was clear where she was. When my wife came clean she said those dates and the evidence I had did not matter. Her and the XOM had a story and they were sticking to it.

This is my opinion RS. If you confront with the evidence and she admits to it and gives you a plausible reply, the truth, I would then say you are on your way to a true R. If she back paddles, denies, says she does not remember, etc. Then I would say you are in the same boat I was for over a year, in a false R. False R stinks. My wife took the A futher underground. Got better at hiding stuff. I will tell you from horrible experience that this a bad place to go. I can't emphasis enough. My wife came clean. Everything was open book. If your wife hesitates, tells you it will be too hurtful to you, she is hiding stuff and it is a false R.


----------



## bfree

Thorburn said:


> Confronting with evidence is a two edged sword. I did it. My wife denied or said she does not remember. Yet it was clear where she was. When my wife came clean she said those dates and the evidence I had did not matter. Her and the XOM had a story and they were sticking to it.
> 
> This is my opinion RS. If you confront with the evidence and she admits to it and gives you a plausible reply, the truth, I would then say you are on your way to a true R. If she back paddles, denies, says she does not remember, etc. Then I would say you are in the same boat I was for over a year, in a false R. False R stinks. My wife took the A futher underground. Got better at hiding stuff. I will tell you from horrible experience that this a bad place to go. I can't emphasis enough. My wife came clean. Everything was open book. If your wife hesitates, tells you it will be too hurtful to you, she is hiding stuff and it is a false R.


Listen to Thorburn. He knows what he is talking about. Go read his thread if you doubt. He has lived what you are going through.


----------



## Road Scholar

Shaggy said:


> Does your fee gave vacation or personal leave time she can take?
> 
> Have her rake it now AND use that time to go full out in her job search. Lots of places are now in hiring mode because they've gut their 2014 budget done and they need to begin filing the jobs they've been authorized to hire for. They want to get as much for before the holidays as possible.
> 
> So there is a sweet spot for professional job hunting right now.


Shaggy: Yes, that would be an option. It's a great suggestion. I will suggest she take at least one day a week to job search exclusively. She has been working on it diligently each night. More so when I suggest things areen't moving quickly enough. She has a promising opportunity she will be interviewing for next week. It's a big job. While they still work at the same company, he is in NY. We're in IL.


----------



## Road Scholar

Nucking Futs said:


> Your opinion that it's not harrassment is not going to stop someone with a different opinion from filing a suit that you'll have to spend time and money defending, even if it gets dismissed. So I ask you again, what's the reward for following this advice that you're so sure is good but everyone else is equally sure is bad. How is it going to help the OP?


I notified his wife. She confirmed receipt of my letters and asked that I stop. She called me on my cell phone and asked me verbally and sent me a notarized letter the next day via fed ex confirming receipt of the letter and asking me not to contact her again or her family members again and that the sum of my actions is making her feel threatened and harrassed. I sent two letters to the OMs house and one letter to two different neighbors. I have accomplished what I wanted which was to make sure his wife knows of the affair. Now that she does it's her business how she handles it. It was never my intention to harrass or threaten only inform and now that I've done that, she won't hear from me again. I don't need any legal problems on top of this. 

Contacting his employer is still in my pocket.


----------



## LongWalk

Have you read JS's thread? Cheaterville will make the OM squirm. You don't have to write anything angry or bitter. Just state the facts.

OMW wants to rug sweep. Her business.


----------



## Road Scholar

LongWalk said:


> Hopefulgirl, you write:
> 
> 
> 
> They are in R, but they have not had sex for 5 months. For men sex is a caring activity. The obstacles to intimacy are two fold:
> 
> 1) She still belongs to OM in her heart
> 2) She is not attracted to her husband
> 
> If the facts about the affair come out, won't it be easier for them to face this?


We were in a false R after DDay1 back in May. That is when for the next 5 months I was taking this all on me and really doing the heavy lifting, putting love first (huge mistake), giving her time, allowing the fog to clear and her feelings for the OM to pass. (huge mistake all of it) It was before I found this sight. I made many many mistakes during that time and if I did the hard 180 then things would have been different I believe.

I found out during that 5 months they were still in contact and it was physical again. Initially she denied that it got physical. Then she admitted to being with him once. Now it would appear based on toll records and other soft proof it was more than once. So trickle truth to damage control likely for her benefit. I know it's hard to face the really bad **** you do especially to the people you are supposed to love but at some point you need to come clean, righ? For her as much as me. I have demostrated a committment and she should demonstrate a committment to the truth. I hope that comes soon.

But, she is different now and I feel she is very remorseful, shameful, regrets that it started and continued. She cries alot everytime we talk. She is caring, affectionate, want to be there for me and show She is doing a good chunk of the work now. If she had been like this during the first 5 months we would be mostly past this by now. But now, it's more damage done and more healing that needs to take place. We are having sex again after 5 months of nothing. Sex has always been very important to me - and more so now it feels like. I'm taking advantage of her willingness to please me and I hope it's not temporary. It's nice and I think it helps me to get through this but I still struggle with what path to take. I'm giving it time before taking definitive action. I guess what I struggle with is if I want to R, I am confused as to how moving out or filing for D will help toward that effort other than to send the message that I'm done trying. I mean when I am done if I get to that point then I will file or move out but it doesn't feel like the right thing to do right now given where we are at. She is trying. I am trying. We are trying to rebuild. If it was like before I could not do again. It was so hard every day and now I know why. I was carrying us both and beating myself up on top of it while she was still in la la land. I don't think she is there anymore. Maybe not 100% here given the intensity of the A but it's getting close. She claims she has not desire to see him, call him, talk to him, etc. She says everything she is doing is focused on us and our family and trying to repair what she has done.

As frustrating as it is to everyone on this site, I go back and forth. I know she is trying. I know she is remoreful. I know she wants things to work out between us. She is demonstrating this through her actions, mostly. She has not complied with the timeline which I know will be painful for her to do. I will continue to ask for it. I don't know if she blocked this **** out or if she just cannot remember or if she is choosing to forget but it seems i have more dates memorized than she does. i have my own timeline. I look at in nearly every day and add to it or subtract from it. I'm putting the pieces of the puzzle together so i have my version of the truth. In that respect, I guess I am doing the work for her but need to so I can tell if what she tells me is truthful. 

We talked last night and I called her out on a few of her lies or half truths. I did not tell her about the toll reports. She could log on herself if I did and see all the details I have. * I told her that I cannot stress to her enough the importance of being honest and truthful with me at this point. The only way this gets worse is if the lies and deceit continue. * I don't think I can be hurt any more or cut any deeper. It's been done. Maybe I'm wrong. But I don't cry anymore about this. I did often when I initially found out. Yes it still hurts but I guess the pain is like scar tissue and it's gotten thicker with time.

Like I said more of same bad ****. I guess I would like to see her offer up something that I did not know about, then I can possibly begin to trust her again slowly and bit by bit.


----------



## Road Scholar

Are there any legal repercussions from posting to Cheaterville? Any risk whatsoever for libel or slander or harrassment or otherwise?


----------



## Thor

There is a disconnect between all the good things she is doing and her failing to do the timeline.

Have you explained to her the reason the timeline is important? Has she read about BS' need for complete truth? I think you wrote that she got one or more infidelity books. They explain how different the BS experience is than the WS experience, and how you have needs which she may not understand, yet she must do those things in order for you to heal.

Perhaps she thinks this is some kind of punishment you are imposing. Which is in some ways true, she has to feel pain and she has to do some heavy lifting in order for real change and recovery to happen. But the real reason you ask her to do the timeline is as you wrote - establishing the full set of facts (you describe putting the puzzle together) and establishing some level of trust going forward.

You specifically have this need for the timeline. Maybe some other BS wouldn't. Maybe your wife doesn't understand quite why you are asking. Regardless, it is something you need. If she understands why you need it, and how central the need is before R can happen, her actions currently indicate something different.


----------



## Thor

One quick addition. When she does do the timeline there is some chance of honest error. Either on your part or more likely on her part. Ideally she matches what you know 100%, but she might get a date wrong, she might get a destination wrong on one trip (you have toll data, she may work from fallible memory).

Anyhow, be willing to consider the possibility there are unintentional errors. You'll get triggered but try to stay calm and rational.


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## bfree

Let me ask you this question RS. If you asked for the timeline and she said to you "I'm not doing it because it is too painful and I want to move forward. Don't ask for it again." What would you do?


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## BK23

Road Scholar said:


> Are there any legal repercussions from posting to Cheaterville? Any risk whatsoever for libel or slander or harrassment or otherwise?


Zero risk as long as everything you post is true. He could sue you (he won't), but you'll get it tossed quite easily at the preliminary stages.


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## Ovid

Road Scholar said:


> Are there any legal repercussions from posting to Cheaterville? Any risk whatsoever for libel or slander or harrassment or otherwise?


TAM is a good place for Affair issues, but I wouldn't get my legal advice here.


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## BK23

Ovid said:


> TAM is a good place for Affair issues, but I wouldn't get my legal advice here.


I generally agree with you.

If it would make you more comfortable, Road, you can PM, get a retainer, and pay me $450 an hour.


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## Road Scholar

bfree said:


> Let me ask you this question RS. If you asked for the timeline and she said to you "I'm not doing it because it is too painful and I want to move forward. Don't ask for it again." What would you do?


bfree: I know where you're going with this. While she never came right out and told me she would not do it, she has not done it yet, which is not very different than her saying I'm not going to do it because it's too painful... I have brought it up many times and again last night. I have asked specifically for "the one time" they were together during the last 5 months. She claims she was looking at her calendar at would and could not remember. Probably can't keep it straight or doesn't want to. I'm really not sure which. 

There are trips she was supposed to have gone on and I cannot tell for sure if she went on them or just shacked up at a hotel near the airport (same toll booth). I thought today that parking receipts can be produced to verify trips taken/not taken. She claims he was not with her on these trips either, but I haven't thought of how to verify. 

We have these difficult talks and then try to make nice for the rest of the night. I am trying to let her know what I need very directly and logically and calmly (mostly) without giving her an ultimatum. 

I could take her through my timeline but I think that defeats the purpose, right?


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## Jasel

> I am trying to let her know what I need very directly and logically and calmly (mostly) *without giving her an ultimatum*.


And there's part of your problem. Why should she tell you what you want to know? What _are _you going to do about it if she never does? The other part is even if you did give her an ultimatum I doubt she'd expect you to follow through with it and she'd probably be right.

You might as well stop asking for a timeline at this point if all you're going to do is just keep asking. If she was going to give you one she most likely would have at this point.


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## azteca1986

RS, this is taken from the thread "Examples of the Cheater's Script"



********** said:


> _DRUM ROLL. . . And the three winners in our cheater's script are:_
> IDK. . . I don't know.
> ICR. . . I can't remember.
> INS. . . I'm not sure.


Sound familiar?


----------



## Wazza

Road Scholar said:


> bfree: I know where you're going with this. While she never came right out and told me she would not do it, she has not done it yet, which is not very different than her saying I'm not going to do it because it's too painful... I have brought it up many times and again last night. I have asked specifically for "the one time" they were together during the last 5 months. She claims she was looking at her calendar at would and could not remember. Probably can't keep it straight or doesn't want to. I'm really not sure which.
> 
> There are trips she was supposed to have gone on and I cannot tell for sure if she went on them or just shacked up at a hotel near the airport (same toll booth). I thought today that parking receipts can be produced to verify trips taken/not taken. She claims he was not with her on these trips either, but I haven't thought of how to verify.
> 
> We have these difficult talks and then try to make nice for the rest of the night. I am trying to let her know what I need very directly and logically and calmly (mostly) without giving her an ultimatum.
> 
> I could take her through my timeline but I think that defeats the purpose, right?


But this is the truth of it.

Try this. What days in April,did you visit a friend. If someone asked you to list them, could you write the all down? Dates, times.

Now suppose you are inclined to cheat. How hard would it be to find opportunity?

Right now my wife is away from home with work for a couple of days. I know where she is, I know it is legitimate but sometimes the brain wonders....

In your case, if the tolls clearly indicate more than one tryst post DD1 I would make an issue of that. It is significant. " I know you were with him more than once. I hoped you would be truthful. I am moving out, call when you are prepared to give me the whole story." That sort of thing. But maybe she can't remember the exact number of times. Not sure that is a hanging offence.

You have to decide. Just know that, if you don't get enough truth now it will eat at you for a long time.


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## LongWalk

I think men and women both remember sexual episodes. Not all of them but some stand out. The first time is usually remembered pretty well. And because the affairs require some creativity and planning people remember details there, too.


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## LongWalk

Ovid said:


> TAM is a good place for Affair issues, but I wouldn't get my legal advice here.


Cheaterville legally safe as long as what you write is true.


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## Openminded

Cheaters stall because it benefits them. They hope their spouse will eventually give up trying to learn the truth. And many do give up. Others get out.

I never got the truth of my ex-husband's affair 30 years ago. I gave up trying. I believed him when he said he would be faithful forever. He lied. Or maybe he thought he meant it. Not too long ago he resumed his affair. Or perhaps it never stopped. I don't know and no longer care. I got a divorce after 45 years of marriage. My son recently told me he wished I had gotten out 30 years ago and not waited until now. I wish I had as well.

Your wife is not doing what she should and until she does it is going to be very difficult for you to move on. She's hoping to wait you out. Only you know if that timeline is a deal breaker or not.


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## hopefulgirl

I didn't think my husband could forget things like this, but I later came to believe it was actually possible - especially if there was a lot of guilt involved.

A motel bill was on a credit card statement (one that was online, recently switched from a paper bill!), so the date was right there, but neither one of us could remember how on earth he could have come up with a cover story since it was in the middle of the week. We BOTH couldn't remember what was going on that day!! I couldn't figure out how I could have been OK about him being gone on a week night, and how neither one of us could think of why he might be gone overnight.

And speaking of forgetting, it was such a horrible time in my life (initial weeks after D-Day), right now I don't even recall how many days it took but it was a more than a couple before HE came up with the answer - a very rare, last minute business trip that involved driving to a city not too far away (most of his trips involve flying), and it was just one night (most of his trips last a week or even more). It was so last minute, it wasn't even on his calendar - it made me ask him, "did you even really go out of town?" (Yes, he did - and he used that opportunity to get together with her.)

He left early in the afternoon and met her before he left the area. Told me a lie about having to go back to the office before leaving town, and since the weather was bad, best not to call me and "distract" his driving - he'd call me. I got a progress report text about being at a rest stop but really he had just started driving - and another text later on to say he was checking in to the hotel in the destination city, when he was still really more than 3 hours away. (It's interesting that he never did call me - he was able to lie to me by text in the hours immediately after being with her the few times they did the dirty deed but he could never call and TALK to me.)

He really finds it uncomfortable to discuss this stuff. He literally squirms. Even in MC, where we're only just starting to go there (because we're working on making it "safe" to talk about really difficult things), it's obviously very painful for him. And now he's able to use more empathetic language, something he was completely incapable of a few months ago, things like "it had to make you feel really rejected." He hates who he was back then, because it's like he was someone else that even he doesn't know. He's very ashamed of it all. I think he compartmentalized that dirty part of his life, and it's easier to forget details connected with stuff that you're really ashamed of.


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## BobSimmons

Put it like this..

You're engaged in extra marital activities, there's an active and willing objective to lie and manipulate to get what you want.

Having said that..

It's the planning, organising places to meet to do the deed

The anticipation of what will come to pass

Unless the person is some supreme compartmentalizer (I just made that up) able to go about the day to day life without once thinking of AP, what they are doing (which is virtually impossible since they'd have to be in some sort of communication anyway)

Days, hours, minutes leading up to the sex

Then all of a sudden they black out during the event and forget it in it's entirety afterwards? .. REALLY!!?

Not that I'm saying they have to remember every single detail but you can bet your bottom dollar, much of the imagery is still fresh in the memory.


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## Wazza

hopefulgirl said:


> I didn't think my husband could forget things like this, but I later came to believe it was actually possible - especially if there was a lot of guilt involved.
> 
> A motel bill was on a credit card statement (one that was online, recently switched from a paper bill!), so the date was right there, but neither one of us could remember how on earth he could have come up with a cover story since it was in the middle of the week. We BOTH couldn't remember what was going on that day!! I couldn't figure out how I could have been OK about him being gone on a week night, and how neither one of us could think of why he might be gone overnight.
> 
> And speaking of forgetting, it was such a horrible time in my life (initial weeks after D-Day), right now I don't even recall how many days it took but it was a more than a couple before HE came up with the answer - a very rare, last minute business trip that involved driving to a city not too far away (most of his trips involve flying), and it was just one night (most of his trips last a week or even more). It was so last minute, it wasn't even on his calendar - it made me ask him, "did you even really go out of town?" (Yes, he did - and he used that opportunity to get together with her.)
> 
> He left early in the afternoon and met her before he left the area. Told me a lie about having to go back to the office before leaving town, and since the weather was bad, best not to call me and "distract" his driving - he'd call me. I got a progress report text about being at a rest stop but really he had just started driving - and another text later on to say he was checking in to the hotel in the destination city, when he was still really more than 3 hours away. (It's interesting that he never did call me - he was able to lie to me by text in the hours immediately after being with her the few times they did the dirty deed but he could never call and TALK to me.)
> 
> He really finds it uncomfortable to discuss this stuff. He literally squirms. Even in MC, where we're only just starting to go there (because we're working on making it "safe" to talk about really difficult things), it's obviously very painful for him. And now he's able to use more empathetic language, something he was completely incapable of a few months ago, things like "it had to make you feel really rejected." He hates who he was back then, because it's like he was someone else that even he doesn't know. He's very ashamed of it all. I think he compartmentalized that dirty part of his life, and it's easier to forget details connected with stuff that you're really ashamed of.


My wife the same. But at the risk of sounding hard, so what? She caused it all, and yet so much load falls on me. Even if I was prepared to take the entire emotional load, I am not capable of it. And I don't think it is healthy. Elephants have no place in the room.


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## tainted

I want to go back to the idea of getting a polygraph test . 
Have you tried bringing up the polygraph test? Its important that you be adamant about getting the truth from her, and not knowing is causing more damage to your marriage.


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## bfree

Road Scholar said:


> bfree: I know where you're going with this. While she never came right out and told me she would not do it, she has not done it yet, which is not very different than her saying I'm not going to do it because it's too painful... I have brought it up many times and again last night. I have asked specifically for "the one time" they were together during the last 5 months. She claims she was looking at her calendar at would and could not remember. Probably can't keep it straight or doesn't want to. I'm really not sure which.
> 
> There are trips she was supposed to have gone on and I cannot tell for sure if she went on them or just shacked up at a hotel near the airport (same toll booth). I thought today that parking receipts can be produced to verify trips taken/not taken. She claims he was not with her on these trips either, but I haven't thought of how to verify.
> 
> We have these difficult talks and then try to make nice for the rest of the night. I am trying to let her know what I need very directly and logically and calmly (mostly) without giving her an ultimatum.
> 
> I could take her through my timeline but I think that defeats the purpose, right?


Well then the way I see it she has absolutely nothing to gain by giving you a timeline and being completely honest does she? You're asking for the timeline but you aren't demanding it. You won't or at least are extremely reluctant to give her an ultimatum. Some have suggested a polygraph but I don't recall what your position is on this. You could say she either gives you a timeline or you schedule a polygraph but there's that darned utimatum again. Let me ask you this. If you were in her position would you write out a timeline if your spouse asked for but didn't demand it? What incentive does she have? You aren't going anywhere are you?

The question you need to ask yourself is this. Can you live without knowing the truth? If the answer is no then I might suggest you push for the truth now rather than wait until she can truly use the I can't remember excuse. The longer this goes on the less likely you are to ever find out the information you seem to need. Procrastination in this case is going to be a marriage killer for you.


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## harrybrown

If you do not get the timeline now, it will haunt you in the future.

You will have enough hard times with the memory of the affair, but when your mind games come in the future years, you will have triggers over things that may or may not have happened. 

Do not set yourself up for this future torture. Get the timeline.

If you cheated, she would want the information. Ask her to give you the timeline and try to start your heart beating again. She broke it, she needs to help fix it.


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## Thor

I can understand someone not remembering precisely if it was 5 times. There could be some confusing of details, perhaps not sure if one meeting was before or after another event, or mixing two together. Yeah, so she might not remember exactly, but she must remember it was not once. And she should get most of the dates pretty darned close (maybe mistaking a Tues for a Weds, or getting it precisely one week wrong).

Don't be so Nice to her. She needs to feel the pain in order to change. This isn't about you showing her how good of a man you are, this is about her earning her way back.


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## Kallan Pavithran

Insanity is doing the same thing repeatedly and expecting a different result-Einstein.

Stop asking her for a time line, you are not going to get it.

One more thing, you are in your second false repair.


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## Kallan Pavithran

She will give you the time line when she learns that you will file if she didnt gave it to you.


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## BetrayedDad

hopefulgirl said:


> I didn't think my husband could forget things like this, but I later came to believe it was actually possible - especially if there was a lot of guilt involved.
> 
> A motel bill was on a credit card statement (one that was online, recently switched from a paper bill!), so the date was right there, but neither one of us could remember how on earth he could have come up with a cover story since it was in the middle of the week. We BOTH couldn't remember what was going on that day!! I couldn't figure out how I could have been OK about him being gone on a week night, and how neither one of us could think of why he might be gone overnight.



I'm sorry but there is no way your husband "forgot" he was in a motel room. Why do you presume that he had to have been there overnight? He needed to rent the room to have sex so he probably only used it for an hour and left. That's why you don't remember any mid week cover story. He did his business and was home by supper time.


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## harrybrown

She did wonderful things for the OM.

What wonderful thing has she done to show you that you are her life now, she is out of the fog and deserves a chance to stay?

Do not remarry her! Another lady will come along after she is out of the house, that will cherish you and not cheat on you.


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## Lovemytruck

bfree said:


> Well then the way I see it she has absolutely nothing to gain by giving you a timeline and being completely honest does she? .....
> 
> The question you need to ask yourself is this. Can you live without knowing the truth? If the answer is no then I might suggest you push for the truth now rather than wait until she can truly use the I can't remember excuse. The longer this goes on the less likely you are to ever find out the information you seem to need. Procrastination in this case is going to be a marriage killer for you.


:iagree:

Here is a different perspective using this quote as a starting point:

Does any of this matter anymore?

RS,

I relate to your sense of not wanting to force the timeline issue. The question you need to ask yourself really is does it even matter? The feeling I get from your last post was that you are hoping. She is showing you that her needs are more important than yours. You are trying to be fair, and she refuses to do the same.

Why, oh, why do you want to continue?

The tests you offer her are rejected. She has not only failed your expectations, but she has refused to take the tests.

I spent many months in Hell. You, my friend, are in Hell. I would strongly suggest you move out of Hell, and find a new life.

D is not easy, but it will feel MUCH better than living in Hell.

My $0.02 for you. 

I say this with deep empathy for you. I have been in your shoes.


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## hopefulgirl

BetrayedDad said:


> I'm sorry but there is no way your husband "forgot" he was in a motel room. Why do you presume that he had to have been there overnight? He needed to rent the room to have sex so he probably only used it for an hour and left. That's why you don't remember any mid week cover story. He did his business and was home by supper time.


I must not have explained myself clearly. He didn't forget he was in the motel room. It was the cover story he couldn't recall. He can't just leave work in the middle of the day for even an hour - he doesn't have that kind of job. This business trip was virtually last minute and a driving one at that: really unusual. He came home in the afternoon to pack an overnight bag, and said he was going back to the office because he "forgot something," then he was going to be starting his drive out of town. That was a ruse to confuse me about his actual start time for the drive; the weather was bad so he told me not to call him so he could concentrate on his driving - another way to keep me from calling during their tryst. 

This business trip was so different than most, and it was several weeks in the past by the time we were trying to figure out how he hid going to the motel in the middle of the week, and neither one of us recalled this particular business trip at first. He'd had several trips since then, most by plane, most planned well in advance and most lasting 5 days or more - this was a strange thing that came up all of a sudden, and they grabbed the opportunity.

He also can't remember telling me not to call him so he could concentrate on his driving due to the bad weather - he has no recollection of that. This wasn't the worst of his lies but he still can't remember it. I do think that when there's a lot of guilt surrounding some bad memories, and someone truly hates what they've done, there really could be some mechanism that puts some of those memories further into the recesses of the mind so they're actually harder to access. Lying and cheating are ugly, and your mind may be able to at least temporarily block parts of it out.

At least in his case, HE was the one who did eventually remember that it was this unusual business trip that he used for cover, and he told me that it came to him.


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## turnera

Kallan Pavithran said:


> She will give you the time line when she learns that you will file if she didnt gave it to you.


 Yep.

Funny how that changes things.


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## turnera

BetrayedDad said:


> I'm sorry but there is no way your husband "forgot" he was in a motel room. Why do you presume that he had to have been there overnight? He needed to rent the room to have sex so he probably only used it for an hour and left. That's why you don't remember any mid week cover story. He did his business and was home by supper time.


Just to play devil's advocate, I've forgotten tons of things. I don't even remember my first date with my husband. Didn't tell him that.


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## JCD

So...more than two weeks ago, I posted.

Since then

She hasn't gotten a new job.

She hasn't done a time line.

She _merely_ engages in normal wife activities which she denied you in the past with a few tears.

In response

any time SHE is upset for HER actions, you feel like a schmuck and back off.

You still think that women can't fake crying. They can

You aren't asking questions.

Now, Wazza has a good point. If you asked me to recall all the sexual encounters I had with my wife in the month of July, I would be hard pressed to give you an exact count or describe it in any detail.

If you asked how often I was in contact with my 'friend' the answer would be meaningless. It was every day if at all possible. How exactly is she supposed to say "Hey...I talked to him EVERY DAY." (Did you check the phone records?)

And she perhaps correctly fears that if she gave you a timeline, mentioning when you were putting siding on the house or helping her sick mother cut down some trees, she was farming out the kids and shagging his ass rotten, you would likely leave her.

So it is important to SUGGEST (not promise) that a timeline will likely involve amnesty. Why only suggest? It might be impossible to keep that promise if you find out that on an anniversary or birthday, she 'was at work' which really involved a hotel room or some other bout of blatant disrespect.

You are foot dragging. She is motionless unless acted upon by an outside force. YOU are not being that force.

But...it has BEEN two weeks...and it has ONLY been two weeks. Not long enough for a job, but certainly enough to sketch some notes.

***

I would suggest this tactic. Ask her a question. Ask another question. Separate them over the course of a few hours or a day. "Did you ever go dancing with him? Where? Who paid? What was 'your song?"

See...she doesn't want to make the effort to make the timeline, but A question requires an immediate answer and it starts to chip at the intimacy factor. She no longer has that secret special song. She no longer has the 'Coconut Grove' lounge as that 'special place'. You are getting your messy fingerprints all over her fantasy...BUT as a so called remorseful wife, she can't refuse to answer A question...and another and another.

You can build your timeline that way if you'd like.


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## bfree

Hey RS, go read Philat's story. He has been attempting reconciliation with his wife since 2006! And in all that time he has never received full disclosure about her affair even though he has been pushing for it all along. He now ackowledges that since so much time has passed he'll never know the entire truth.

Is this where you want to be in 7 YEARS!!!

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/132010-update-philats-story.html


----------



## just got it 55

JCD said:


> So...more than two weeks ago, I posted.
> 
> Since then
> 
> She hasn't gotten a new job.
> 
> She hasn't done a time line.
> 
> She _merely_ engages in normal wife activities which she denied you in the past with a few tears.
> 
> In response
> 
> any time SHE is upset for HER actions, you feel like a schmuck and back off.
> 
> You still think that women can't fake crying. They can
> 
> You aren't asking questions.
> 
> Now, Wazza has a good point. If you asked me to recall all the sexual encounters I had with my wife in the month of July, I would be hard pressed to give you an exact count or describe it in any detail.
> 
> If you asked how often I was in contact with my 'friend' the answer would be meaningless. It was every day if at all possible. How exactly is she supposed to say "Hey...I talked to him EVERY DAY." (Did you check the phone records?)
> 
> And she perhaps correctly fears that if she gave you a timeline, mentioning when you were putting siding on the house or helping her sick mother cut down some trees, she was farming out the kids and shagging his ass rotten, you would likely leave her.
> 
> So it is important to SUGGEST (not promise) that a timeline will likely involve amnesty. Why only suggest? It might be impossible to keep that promise if you find out that on an anniversary or birthday, she 'was at work' which really involved a hotel room or some other bout of blatant disrespect.
> 
> You are foot dragging. She is motionless unless acted upon by an outside force. YOU are not being that force.
> 
> But...it has BEEN two weeks...and it has ONLY been two weeks. Not long enough for a job, but certainly enough to sketch some notes.
> 
> ***
> 
> I would suggest this tactic. Ask her a question. Ask another question. Separate them over the course of a few hours or a day. "Did you ever go dancing with him? Where? Who paid? What was 'your song?"
> 
> See...she doesn't want to make the effort to make the timeline, but A question requires an immediate answer and it starts to chip at the intimacy factor. She no longer has that secret special song. She no longer has the 'Coconut Grove' lounge as that 'special place'. You are getting your messy fingerprints all over her fantasy...BUT as a so called remorseful wife, she can't refuse to answer A question...and another and another.
> 
> You can build your timeline that way if you'd like.


 Get your timeline verbally.AS you ask the questions make notes. Let her see you making these notes. She cannot avoid you unless you allow it.

Do this two or three times a day.

Re ask the same questions from time to time.

Make eye contact with her as she answers.

Let her understand you are reading her. Do this only with eye contact.

Write your questions in advance. Memorize them and let her think they are spontaneous.

Do this as long as it takes to get the answers you need


----------



## Shaggy

RS, I want you to succeed and save your marriage, which is why I continue to point out where I see you slipping off the path.


Dude - you say she's doing the right things and showing change.

Yet time and time again TAM warns BS to ignore words, snot, and tears from WW and only watch actions.

I fear you desperately want to succeed, and you are looking for things you can use to assure yourself versus seeing real actions toward R from her.

You still do not have the full unrestricted truth from her - not only do you NOT have a timeline, but she isn't actually answering your questions.

Your wife is at best determined to rug sweep and at worst continuing the A.


----------



## warlock07

RS, you say that you made mistakes after your DD1 that you regret now. 

You are making mistakes now that you don't see right now but will regret in the future.

Your empathy is misplaced and it your own fault for continuing to be weak. Crying is a manipulative tool. The bits and pieces you post of your discussions only demonstrate that she is the one in control of the whole situation. Self preservation on her part. In your desperation to reconcile(Cannot blame you), you are compromising your position and stance. 

I am not sure you answered this - "Why did she suddenly choose you once you were ready to file for divorce ? What changed ? Especially after leading you through false R for 5 months. Ahve you asked her ?"

And did you read the MMSL and the Nice Guy books ?


----------



## jim123

RS

You are being played. Get control now. Go see an attorney. Give her the paperwork Give her your proof. Tell her you are done playing games. Ask her to leave.

Start the disclosure process. Write a letter to her/his company hr.

It is time to stop being a victum.


----------



## Road Scholar

warlock07 said:


> RS, you say that you made mistakes after your DD1 that you regret now.
> 
> You are making mistakes now that you don't see right now but will regret in the future.
> 
> Your empathy is misplaced and it your own fault for continuing to be weak. Crying is a manipulative tool. The bits and pieces you post of your discussions only demonstrate that she is the one in control of the whole situation. Self preservation on her part. In your desperation to reconcile(Cannot blame you), you are compromising your position and stance.
> 
> I am not sure you answered this - "Why did she suddenly choose you once you were ready to file for divorce ? What changed ? Especially after leading you through false R for 5 months. Ahve you asked her ?"
> 
> And did you read the MMSL and the Nice Guy books ?


I did purchase both books and I am working my through them. Three of them actually. Not the most voracious reader but I'm chipping away at them. They're insightful if nothing else. Mainly reading NMMNG. Definitely some nice guy issues with putting other people's needs before mine. I told myself I'm being a good father, good husband, good brother, good friend, while not necessarily being good to me. Always thought if I thought of me first I was being selfish or self-centered. So I'm working on that.

After DDay2 she said the last 5 months they were trying to break things off, but it was hard. They would go through periods where they wouldn't talk or see each other and then they would....she said it was like being addicted to a drug she couldn't pull away from (could've read that). She said it was up and down between them during that period time. (resist the urge) She said that the night I found out she was still in contact and told her it was over, she came to the realization of what was at stake and what she had to lose. She said it was like a switch had been flipped and she could see and think clearly. She did not want to lose me or our family. She said it became so clear and obvious that night but especially the next day when I told her I was filing for divorce. Her attitude changed over night literally and I could see it in her actions and her words pretty consistently since then. I know this has been painful for her. Probably not as painful as it's been for me but I know she is hurting. It makes me feel better to know that sometime and yes I do back off when I see it. Can't help it I guess. I do still love her and I am hoping our love for each other will get us through this. I am going to continue to push on the timeline. 

I wrote a modified letter explaining why I need it and that it's to help us heal. I am going to ask for airport parking receipts for when they she was supposed to be out of town. I am going to ask for explanations on tolls. Big interview for her on Wednesday. I'm pacing myself and waiting for timing to be right.

EVERYONE on this site has been incredible. I appreciate all the words of wisdom. I just need to apply my knowledge of the situation too as I am living it. The support and encouragement has been nothing short of incredible! So sincere thanks to you all! 

The "Road Scholar" aka road meat after the truck that ran over me. lol! hey humor, progress!:rofl:


----------



## Wazza

Please do not ask her about the tolls yet, or give away any of your other sources of evidence. Keep it in reserve. Keep ways to check up on her for a while.

Trust me, it's not a sprint it is a marathon. She struggled to give him up before and she will most likely do so again.

I know it isn't what you want to hear.....


----------



## Road Scholar

Wazza said:


> Please do not ask her about the tolls yet, or give away any of your other sources of evidence. Keep it in reserve. Keep ways to check up on her for a while.
> 
> Trust me, it's not a sprint it is a marathon. She struggled to give him up before and she will most likely do so again.
> 
> I know it isn't what you want to hear.....


Definitely NOT what I want to hear. You really think so? I guess I am being naive this still thinking she has learned her lesson. Maybe not. I guess time will tell, but i don't think I could handle a 3rd DDay and continue with attempts at reconciliation.


----------



## turnera

You don't learn your lesson in weeks or months. You learn it over YEARS.


----------



## Wazza

Road Scholar said:


> Definitely NOT what I want to hear. You really think so? I guess I am being naive this still thinking she has learned her lesson. Maybe not. I guess time will tell, but i don't think I could handle a 3rd DDay and continue with attempts at reconciliation.


Yes I really think so. 

There is absolutely no question that the temptation will recur. The only question is what she will do about it. She wouldn't be human if she were not conflicted.


----------



## LongWalk

RS,

I think that what Waza and Turnera are saying is that you should not look for a particular signal and say... ah, at last, things are fixed. People talk about the fog, brain chemistry, love and excitement as an illusion. That is in part merely an explanation to give BS a fighting chance.

Emotions and the choices surrounding them are complex. When you wife was longing to hump with OM and wanting to be with him, it felt good, it felt great. Complete repudiation of sexual pleasure and emotion can only come from the belief that it was a really a lie. If the AP lied and manipulated your wife, she may a come to consider the sexual and emotional high abhorrent. But there is no guarantee of this.

People will love in vain. It is very common. A person who spurns someone is not hated, they are loved even more. Just recall your teens.

At the moment your wife has made a momentous decision because of realism. But what percentage of her decision was based on – and I am going to be graphic here – her desire for your penis, your body, your smell, your voice, you touch, etc? Could it be that she still feels fondness for OM. Is the expression on his face when climaxing a wonderful sight in her mind?

Now that you have reversed her direction, Waza and Turnera are urging that you keep her moving in the right direction. What does that mean in practice? If she gets her old life back rather easily, she will not be as vigilant in fighting desire to see him again. Killing off her desire is partly an intellectual and ethical business, but at bottom it is her heart which must want to be with you, not just a brain afraid of punishment.

But it is the consequence of her infidelity that will deepen her desire for you. By seeing the divorce through she be more likely to consider her time with him bad, not something neat that she had to sacrifice but something she regrets having done.

If she loves you, divorce will simply motivate her to ramp up her love for you. If after all she has put you through, she cannot suffer a bit and continue to love you, then she is not worth it.

I don't think you should have endless relationship discussions. They demean her respect for your masculine qualities. Moreover, you don't have lie to her. Tell her she has been wonderful since you decided to divorce her. You loved her while she cheated and you love her now, but you must divorce to protect yourself from her. End of discussion. 

If she wants to know if you will have any chance of getting back together. You can look her in the eye, pause for an eternity and reply with just one word, "maybe". Do not plan or elaborate. Let her plan. Even if you don't see the divorce through, she will at least be cooking your favorite foods, looking at you fondly, initiating sex. Let her feel that she has to fight to win you back.

The last thing you need is for her day dream about the affair. Fill her mind with an existential problem.

Do not risk letting her stumble. Lead her to safety.


----------



## Lovemytruck

LongWalk said:


> But it is the consequence of her infidelity that will deepen her desire for you. By seeing the divorce through she be more likely to consider her time with him bad, not something neat that she had to sacrifice but something she regrets having done.
> 
> If she loves you, divorce will simply motivate her to ramp up her love for you. If after all she has put you through, she cannot suffer a bit and continue to love you, then she is not worth it.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

Great post! I could have quoted all of it. The part that is quoted above is the essence of why it is better to pursue D over R after a betrayal.

Kudos Longwalk! Very well written.


----------



## warlock07

Road Scholar said:


> I did purchase both books and I am working my through them. Three of them actually. Not the most voracious reader but I'm chipping away at them. They're insightful if nothing else. Mainly reading NMMNG. Definitely some nice guy issues with putting other people's needs before mine. I told myself I'm being a good father, good husband, good brother, good friend, while not necessarily being good to me. Always thought if I thought of me first I was being selfish or self-centered. So I'm working on that.
> 
> After DDay2 she said the last 5 months they were trying to break things off, but it was hard. They would go through periods where they wouldn't talk or see each other and then they would....she said it was like being addicted to a drug she couldn't pull away from (could've read that). She said it was up and down between them during that period time. (resist the urge) She said that the night I found out she was still in contact and told her it was over, she came to the realization of what was at stake and what she had to lose. She said it was like a switch had been flipped and she could see and think clearly. She did not want to lose me or our family. She said it became so clear and obvious that night but especially the next day when I told her I was filing for divorce. Her attitude changed over night literally and I could see it in her actions and her words pretty consistently since then. * I know this has been painful for her. Probably not as painful as it's been for me but I know she is hurting. * It makes me feel better to know that sometime and yes I do back off when I see it. Can't help it I guess. I do still love her and I am hoping our love for each other will get us through this. I am going to continue to push on the timeline.


What changed between Dday1 and DDday 2 ? Did she not consider your pain?

Do you think it is OK to lie to people so as not to hurt them?

How do you think she would react if you tell her that you would date other women until you make a decision about the marriage ?



> I wrote a modified letter explaining why I need it and that it's to help us heal. I am going to ask for airport parking receipts for when they she was supposed to be out of town. I am going to ask for explanations on tolls. Big interview for her on Wednesday. I'm pacing myself and waiting for timing to be right.


Stop writing letters, frequently. She needs to start empathizing with your feelings on her own.


----------



## RWB

Road Scholar said:


> They would go through periods where they wouldn't talk or see each other and then they would....*she said it was like being addicted to a drug she couldn't pull away from* (could've read that). She said it was up and down between them during that period time. (resist the urge)
> 
> She said that the night I found out she was still in contact and told her it was over, she came to the realization of what was at stake and what she had to lose. *She said it was like a switch had been flipped and she could see and think clearly. She did not want to lose me or our family.*


RS,

The night (4 years ago) I caught my wife serial cheating on me for years, I was devastated but not really surprised, suspected with no proof for years. (Why I never looked here TAM shame on me)

What you say about an addiction and switch being flipped is exactly how I remember it. My wife only tried to justify for maybe 5 minutes, her excuses even sounded teenage silly to her. 

Point: I struggled for years, how 15 minutes before being caught she was professing her love for her AP, planning their next "meeting", making plans to divorce and move on to "build something new and exciting with her love". 

Once caught, she is remorseful, shamed, guilty. She wants only me, pleads for mercy. How does this work? 

In an instant, she saw her life, her husband, her grown children, her home, her friends, her security, disappear. All she had left was a cheating AP that only made promises, sugar coated with lies. She knew she lied to him, she knew he lied to her. Her life was screwed and it was her own doing? No more blame shifting. The day that would never come, was here and could no longer be mislead, justified away. D-Day in spades.

For years while getting away with cheating, she struggled with her poor choices, her years of lies, her fraud... But... she never really had real, concrete, consequences.


----------



## turnera

btw, writing letters is what weak people do. Strong people SAY what they want and DO what they want. And what they will and won't abide by. No reason for 'another' letter.


----------



## harrybrown

It is time to tell her without the timeline, the divorce will be filed.

She is still protecting the OM and not caring about the pain she put you thru.

She needs to wake all the way up. Go NC on her, and respect yourself. You come first, she is extremely selfish.

Do not tell her why you need the timeline, either she gives it to you now, or give her the divorce papers.

She wants to respect a man. Be a man that respects himself.


----------



## Thor

The #1 rule is to never ever reveal your sources. Never.

Not only is this a TAM 101 rule, it is Sun Tzu from The Art of War, and it is Robert Greene in 48 Laws of Power.

Try to find a creative mis-direction. (This is also Sun Tzu, and every business graduate school).

Ask her to provide you with those records, rather than tell her you have them. Or, find another way you might have a particular piece of data. "JoeBob from work said he saw you driving into the airport the week of July1. Can you explain that? Do you have any records to show where you were if it wasn't you he saw?".

Does she submit travel expense accounts at work? Ask her for those.


----------



## MEM2020

This is very good.





Thor said:


> The #1 rule is to never ever reveal your sources. Never.
> 
> Not only is this a TAM 101 rule, it is Sun Tzu from The Art of War, and it is Robert Greene in 48 Laws of Power.
> 
> Try to find a creative mis-direction. (This is also Sun Tzu, and every business graduate school).
> 
> Ask her to provide you with those records, rather than tell her you have them. Or, find another way you might have a particular piece of data. "JoeBob from work said he saw you driving into the airport the week of July1. Can you explain that? Do you have any records to show where you were if it wasn't you he saw?".
> 
> Does she submit travel expense accounts at work? Ask her for those.


----------



## wilderness

This is a little against the grain, but I wouldn't file for divorce or threaten to file for divorce. IMO ultimatums rarely work, and more importantly, they are a sign of weakness. 
What I would do is make it extremely difficult for her to continue in the marriage without giving you the timeline.
As soon as I'd walk in the door, the first question would be "do you have my timeline yet?"
If she asks you to do something (anything): "as soon as I get my timeline."

I'd even be texting multiple times a day: "are you working on my timeline?"
If no, "why not?"


----------



## Road Scholar

RWB said:


> RS,
> 
> The night (4 years ago) I caught my wife serial cheating on me for years, I was devastated but not really surprised, suspected with no proof for years. (Why I never looked here TAM shame on me)
> 
> What you say about an addiction and switch being flipped is exactly how I remember it. My wife only tried to justify for maybe 5 minutes, her excuses even sounded teenage silly to her.
> 
> Point: I struggled for years, how 15 minutes before being caught she was professing her love for her AP, planning their next "meeting", making plans to divorce and move on to "build something new and exciting with her love".
> 
> Once caught, she is remorseful, shamed, guilty. She wants only me, pleads for mercy. How does this work?
> 
> In an instant, she saw her life, her husband, her grown children, her home, her friends, her security, disappear. All she had left was a cheating AP that only made promises, sugar coated with lies. She knew she lied to him, she knew he lied to her. Her life was screwed and it was her own doing? No more blame shifting. The day that would never come, was here and could no longer be mislead, justified away. D-Day in spades.
> 
> For years while getting away with cheating, she struggled with her poor choices, her years of lies, her fraud... But... she never really had real, concrete, consequences.


RWB,
Thanks for the post and I am sorry for you went/going through also. Did you reconcile with your wife? Does it still haunt you? Are you happy with your choice? 

I feel like there similarities for sure. She told me just the other night that something "just clicked". She never ever thought I would divorce. She knew it then. It was something I was just so against. I still am - which she knows. But I am also now seeing it as a very real possibility now even though it is not what I want. I am still trying to decide which road to take but I am at the moment trying for R.

I guess what I struggle with is that my wife IS remorseful, she is tearful, she is loving and caring and much more sensitive to what I need and want. We have gone shopping together and has bought me new clothes, etc., etc. She is going out of her way to show me she wants this. Yes I question it still and where her heart/head truly is but basically she is where I want her to be, so what would filing for D do at this point if she is doing the things I want her to be doing - again for the most part? True she has not provided the timeline and that is still something I'm working on while trying to maintain day to day normalcy with our kids and jobs. Yet, she is resistant still on providing details. She told me today we can talk about anything I need to but would prefer to wait until after the interview tomorrow so she is not a wreck. Which she would be. When we have these "truth sessions" they are incredibly hard on her. I'm pretty much emotionless. New details do not really have too much of an immediate impact. I think about them later though. She does want to work things out and stay together. She tells me daily she loves me and almost daily she is sorry. 

I don't know what her reaction would be and it might be that maybe it is best for us both. It might be that she tries harder to save it. But I'm still in the mind to try working things out. When I reach the point that I want D more than R, then I will file and see what her response is at that point, but I'm still trying to R. If I filed knowing it's not what I want but to try to get a response I want out of her, it wouldn't feel right me. 

I guess my head and my heart needs to be convinced D is best for me to take that action and I don't 100% feel that right now. Many here feel that this is a mistake but I don't feel that filing for D to get a reaction or to get her to act differently is the right move unless I believe in it. I do understand the point about making her work for it though and not having things come too easy.


----------



## bfree

RS,

You need the truth in order to fully reconcile. Your wife is now behaving the way she always should have but won't give you the truth. Neither of you wants a divorce but the fact is that it is inevitable because you need something she refuses to give. And other than divorce you have nothing to persuade her to give you what you need. Do you see where this is heading? You're at an impasse and the scenario where the desire for divorce exceeds the resolve to stay married is going to come to pass.


----------



## just got it 55

bfree said:


> RS,
> 
> You need the truth in order to fully reconcile. Your wife is now behaving the way she always should have but won't give you the truth. Neither of you wants a divorce but the fact is that it is inevitable because you need something she refuses to give. And other than divorce you have nothing to persuade her to give you what you need. Do you see where this is heading? You're at an impasse and the scenario where the desire for divorce exceeds the resolve to stay married is going to come to pass.


RS This is hard to argue with


----------



## RWB

Road Scholar said:


> RWB,
> Thanks for the post and I am sorry for you went/going through also. Did you reconcile with your wife? Does it still haunt you? Are you happy with your choice?
> 
> I feel like there similarities for sure. She told me just the other night that something "just clicked". She never ever thought I would divorce. She knew it then. It was something I was just so against. I still am - which she knows. But I am also now seeing it as a very real possibility now even though it is not what I want. I am still trying to decide which road to take but I am at the moment trying for R.
> 
> I guess what I struggle with is that my wife IS remorseful, she is tearful, she is loving and caring and much more sensitive to what I need and want. We have gone shopping together and has bought me new clothes, etc., etc. She is going out of her way to show me she wants this. Yes I question it still and where her heart/head truly is but basically she is where I want her to be, so what would filing for D do at this point if she is doing the things I want her to be doing - again for the most part? True she has not provided the timeline and that is still something I'm working on while trying to maintain day to day normalcy with our kids and jobs. Yet, she is resistant still on providing details. She told me today we can talk about anything I need to but would prefer to wait until after the interview tomorrow so she is not a wreck. Which she would be. When we have these "truth sessions" they are incredibly hard on her. I'm pretty much emotionless. New details do not really have too much of an immediate impact. I think about them later though. She does want to work things out and stay together. She tells me daily she loves me and almost daily she is sorry.
> 
> I don't know what her reaction would be and it might be that maybe it is best for us both. It might be that she tries harder to save it. But I'm still in the mind to try working things out. When I reach the point that I want D more than R, then I will file and see what her response is at that point, but I'm still trying to R. If I filed knowing it's not what I want but to try to get a response I want out of her, it wouldn't feel right me.
> 
> I guess my head and my heart needs to be convinced D is best for me to take that action and I don't 100% feel that right now. Many here feel that this is a mistake but I don't feel that filing for D to get a reaction or to get her to act differently is the right move unless I believe in it. I do understand the point about making her work for it though and not having things come too easy.


RS,

I have been "following" your world of infidelity for a while. While having 2 DD is not what I had, a lot of the WW remorse and wanting to R is very much the same. 

Yes, 4 years+ DD we are still together, married, living together and moving on. For about a year after finding out, I was very much on the fence. We went through years of IC, MC, STD test and all the rest. She had been serially cheating for 6+ years when I found out the truth. 

I don't know your future, I was married to this woman for 30+ years when I found out that she was unfaithful. Truth: it killed me for years. Yes, R can take years to before you find peace. HEAR A TRUTH: you will never forget or really ever get "OVER" it. We just move on and deal with it best we can, like losing a family member. 

RS, hear this... I can tell that you still love your unfaithful wife. Your threats of divorce, while real, are still threats at this point. 

PAUSE... 

You can divorce at anytime from now until whenever... that is the right of the BS. I'm 4 years into R and my wife knows that her cheating/transgressions/lying/unfaithfulness nullifies our vows forever. 

The truth of her re-faithfulness will show in time. However, understand, you will be a BS for the rest of your life. You will be looking/checking/verifying for the rest of your life if you stay married. 

It's not a choice it's just the way it is. 

Good Luck, press on, don't give up regardless, RWB


----------



## Road Scholar

RWB said:


> RS,
> 
> I have been "following" your world of infidelity for a while. While having 2 DD is not what I had, a lot of the WW remorse and wanting to R is very much the same.
> 
> Yes, 4 years+ DD we are still together, married, living together and moving on. For about a year after finding out, I was very much on the fence. We went through years of IC, MC, STD test and all the rest. She had been serially cheating for 6+ years when I found out the truth.
> 
> I don't know your future, I was married to this woman for 30+ years when I found out that she was unfaithful. Truth: it killed me for years. Yes, R can take years to before you find peace. HEAR A TRUTH: you will never forget or really ever get "OVER" it. We just move on and deal with it best we can, like losing a family member.
> 
> RS, hear this... I can tell that you still love your unfaithful wife. Your threats of divorce, while real, are still threats at this point.
> 
> PAUSE...
> 
> You can divorce at anytime from now until whenever... that is the right of the BS. I'm 4 years into R and my wife knows that her cheating/transgressions/lying/unfaithfulness nullifies our vows forever.
> 
> The truth of her re-faithfulness will show in time. However, understand, you will be a BS for the rest of your life. You will be looking/checking/verifying for the rest of your life if you stay married.
> 
> It's not a choice it's just the way it is.
> 
> Good Luck, press on, don't give up regardless, RWB



Thanks RWB. I'm glad things are working out for you as best as can be expected. Were you satisfied with the details provided to you? Do you feel there are still secrets or things that you don't know? How important is it do you feel to get 100% or as close as possible to the whole truth? Do you still have questions about dates or specifics are have you been able to let it go at this point? Kids? 

I'm 45 and while I know I could start over with a clean slate with someone new that would treat me with respect and appreciate me, I don't know that is best for my kids or for me, or for my wife. 

If it turns out I can't get past this hurt and end up hating my wife for what she did, then I will simply have to move on and that would be best for everyone.


----------



## harrybrown

She is still protecting her AP and herself. She has not given you the timeline. 

She has this fantasy world that she loves and keeps close to herself and away from you.

To get her out of the affair, you need to shine the light on the affair and get rid of the secrets. She goes there in her mind all the time to the land of the unicorns. 

If she will not give you the timeline, get the divorce. You are still her backup plan. She needs to give up her secrets. There should be no secrets in the marriage or her POSOM in her mind. 

Man up and get the timeline or kick her to the curb.


----------



## 2asdf2

Road Scholar said:


> ---------snip---------
> 
> I'm 45 and while I know I could start over with a clean slate with someone new that would treat me with respect and appreciate me, I don't know that is best for my kids or for me, *or for my wife*.
> 
> ---------snip---------


I am with you on your stance. I urge you to -however- start thinking along lines that do not include the highlighted text above.


----------



## happyman64

Road Scholar said:


> Thanks RWB. I'm glad things are working out for you as best as can be expected. Were you satisfied with the details provided to you? Do you feel there are still secrets or things that you don't know? How important is it do you feel to get 100% or as close as possible to the whole truth? Do you still have questions about dates or specifics are have you been able to let it go at this point? Kids?
> 
> I'm 45 and while I know I could start over with a clean slate with someone new that would treat me with respect and appreciate me, I don't know that is best for my kids or for me, or for my wife.
> 
> If it turns out I can't get past this hurt and end up hating my wife for what she did, then I will simply have to move on and that would be best for everyone.


RS
Time. 



> I don't know that is best for my kids or for me, or for my wife.


Time is what is best for you, your wife and your kids. Time to decide what direction your marriage is heading in.

Take as much as you need. It is your life and family after all.



> Were you satisfied with the details provided to you? Do you feel there are still secrets or things that you don't know? How important is it do you feel to get 100% or as close as possible to the whole truth? Do you still have questions about dates or specifics are have you been able to let it go at this point?


I know some of the posters shouting get rid of her will not like this but let me give you something to think about.

Every once in a while we see a wayward spouse (mostly female) that are so embarrassed by their bad decisions and bad behavior that they make a conscious decision to take this info to their grave.

They wakeup, realize that if they tell the whole truth their BS will divorce them, out them to their entire family and worse, hate them for the rest of their lives.

We have seen a wayward like this.

I said TIME is on your side. But realize that TIME is also on your wifes side as well. 

She can hope you will forgive her and never ask for the details.
Some of us think this is rugsweeping.
But I think you have to show your wife that no matter what she tells you that you will not make any hasty decisions or life altering decisions from this further info.

Actions speak louder than words. You probably have said that to her but the same goes for you even if you are the battered spouse.

It sucks but it is true.

So take your time. Make your wayward wife feel secure. Enforce the healthy boundaries. Look for her true remorse.

As I say "Take care of business, manage the business and tolerate no more monkey business".

HM


----------



## JCD

Road Scholar said:


> I feel like there similarities for sure. She told me just the other night that something "just clicked". She never ever thought I would divorce. She knew it then. It was something I was just so against. I still am - *which she knows*. But I am also now seeing it as a very real possibility now even though it is not what I want. I am still trying to decide which road to take but I am at the moment trying for R.


So far she is counting on it. The MINUTE you pulled on the reins, she suddenly settled down. Now every time you pull on the reins, she turns on the water works and you back down.

There is a VAST difference between being forceful and being a monster. Demanding a timeline and causing her a modicum of emotional trauma is NOT monstrous!

I get that you want love to work through this...but you keep MISSING THE POINT! SHE needs to love you back. As her husband, as her lover, as someone important to HER...supposedly, she needs to try to make you feel whole.

So you ask and you beg and you whine and honestly, any respect she has for you from jerking on her reins that first time has dwindled away...because she knows you hate the idea of divorce. 




> I guess what I struggle with is that my wife IS remorseful, she is tearful, she is loving and caring and much more sensitive to what I need and want. We have gone shopping together and has bought me new clothes, etc., etc. She is going out of her way to show me she wants this. Yes I question it still and where her heart/head truly is but basically she is where I want her to be, so what would filing for D do at this point if she is doing the things I want her to be doing - again for the most part? True she has not provided the timeline and that is still something I'm working on while trying to maintain day to day normalcy with our kids and jobs. Yet, she is resistant still on providing details. She told me today we can talk about anything I need to but would prefer to wait until after the interview tomorrow so she is not a wreck. Which she would be. When we have these "truth sessions" they are incredibly hard on her. I'm pretty much emotionless. New details do not really have too much of an immediate impact. I think about them later though. She does want to work things out and stay together. She tells me daily she loves me and almost daily she is sorry.


I can understand her not wanting to do that before an interview.

Honestly, besides buying you a few shirts and saying "I'm sorry" with some tears thrown in, what is she doing? Can you be specific?

The things which WILL make you whole, she refuses to do. Now...maybe the timeline ISN'T a big deal to you. Perhaps it is TAM driven. But it seems you want or need DETAILS. If THAT is what you need, you need to drive that point home!

And I would pull a totally unfair move and say 'If you loved me, if you wanted me to heal, you would tell me what I need to know.'

She is using your love for her as a shield. Why aren't you using her supposed love for you as a lever? 



> I don't know what her reaction would be and it might be that maybe it is best for us both. It might be that she tries harder to save it. But I'm still in the mind to try working things out. When I reach the point that I want D more than R, then I will file and see what her response is at that point, but I'm still trying to R. If I filed knowing it's not what I want but to try to get a response I want out of her, it wouldn't feel right me.
> 
> I guess my head and my heart needs to be convinced D is best for me to take that action and I don't 100% feel that right now. Many here feel that this is a mistake but I don't feel that filing for D to get a reaction or to get her to act differently is the right move unless I believe in it. I do understand the point about making her work for it though and not having things come too easy.


In some respects, I see this as a bit of a cop out. NO ONE feels 100% good about a D. Hell, no one feels 50% good about a D...Some people feel good about it AFTERWARDS...but even they are the minority.

If you are waiting for that certainty, you will be waiting forever. So far, you are a believer in hope over history.

I am not an advocate of divorce. In a majority of the cases, marriages can be fixed. Here is the deal though: *It takes both people working on it.* SHE needs to find ways to heal you which don't involve shirts. YOU need to extend that olive branch of forgiveness. 

Well...you got all kinds of olive leaves on your hand. What is she doing? You can't answer this because she has done very little. 

Allow me to postulate something: that she IS serious about staying together. She wants it on HER terms...which means that she is allowed to keep her dignity by concealing the details and control of the relationship. I am not a big believer in 'control' either...and particularly not for her.

But you continue to allow this to happen...and you talk about how hopeful you are and how things are going swimmingly. You have your shirts. Life is good. 

That is a pretty cheap price. If you are going to sell yourself, hold out for a car or Rolex.


----------



## JCD

happyman64 said:


> She can hope you will forgive her and never ask for the details.
> Some of us think this is rugsweeping.
> *But I think you have to show your wife that no matter what she tells you that you will not make any hasty decisions or life altering decisions from this further info.*
> Actions speak louder than words. You probably have said that to her but the same goes for you even in you are the battered spouse.
> 
> It sucks but it is true.
> 
> So take your time. Make your wayward wife feel secure. Enforce the healthy boundaries. Look for her true remorse.
> 
> As I say "Take care of business, manage the business and tolerate no more monkey business".
> 
> HM


I am heavily in favor of that. Allow me to offer a practical way to address this doubt and fear in her heart.

Tell her "If we are going to get by this, you need to give me the details I need. But you may be afraid that I will be so angry that I will divorce you immediately. So I promise to take NO actions with regard to our marriage for (select time frame...I suggest a month) . If you want to undergo counseling afterwards, I promise at least four sessions."

That way, she feels nothing precipitous will take place. She needs to know she is safe in revealing these things to you...otherwise, what's the point?

If she doesn't tell you and you dump her, at least she spares you pain and keeps her dignity. If she DOES tell you and you dump her...she's lost it all.


----------



## Decorum

Déjà vu all over again.

Do you want this...



Road Scholar said:


> The advise on this site has been right on. I probably should have been on here 5 months ago instead of accepting her back and trying to forgive and reconcile from day 1. I was trying to be strong for my family and kids and take the pain on myself. I understand that was a bad move. It was not enough of a wake up call for her. She has still been in contact with him.
> 
> Text from tonight: "Grey goose and soda. Alone at bar. Wish u were here."
> 
> I could seriously wreak havoc on them both at work tomorrow. I'm so pissed right now. Can't believe she is blowing apart our family and will destroy our kids souls. I'm sure there is more pain and hurt ahead I guess I am just sorta numb right now.
> 
> Really thought we were trying to reconcile and rebuild. I planned a 14 year anniversary get away this weekend - cost a G - and tonight she is sending text messages to him wishing he was there.
> 
> I guess good guys do finish last. Really wanted to work this **** out but I had a hard enough time trusting her the first time. I don't believe I can EVER trust her after this. The last 5 months I have been in much pain fighting through this trying to be strong for my family and trying to give the benefit of the doubt and let her feelings come around. So so stupid. Catholic upbringing/training hasn't helped me with this.



or this...




Road Scholar said:


> After DDay2 she said the last 5 months they were trying to break things off, but it was hard. They would go through periods where they wouldn't talk or see each other and then they would....she said it was like being addicted to a drug she couldn't pull away from (could've read that). She said it was up and down between them during that period time. (resist the urge) She said that the night I found out she was still in contact and told her it was over, she came to the realization of what was at stake and what she had to lose. She said it was like a switch had been flipped and she could see and think clearly. She did not want to lose me or our family. She said it became so clear and obvious that night but especially the next day when I told her I was filing for divorce. Her attitude changed over night literally and I could see it in her actions and her words pretty consistently since then. I know this has been painful for her.



It’s repeated over and over again.

Op you are in a critical point and I don’t want to cause you to second guess yourself.

You have received the right advise, and I am interested to see the outcome after the interview.

This may seem a little esoteric but I believe that a woman can tell when something is a settled issue with a man. It’s shows in how a man can act with confidence and authority.

A calm determination and purpose of action, and resignation to the reality of the situation. I hope you can find that man when you deal with her.

Don’t give her any reason to doubt your resolve.


----------



## illwill

Buying clothes and cooking for you is easy. Her willingness to go through the shame and pain of what she inflicted upon you, is the real indication of her remorse. She does not get to choose what you need from her. You do. And it is on your timetable not hers.


----------



## tom67

illwill said:


> Buying clothes and cooking for you is easy. Her willingness to go through the shame and pain of what she inflicted upon you, is the real indication of her remorse. She does not get to choose what you need from her. You do. And it is on your timetable not hers.


Right to the point :iagree:


----------



## Road Scholar

JCD said:


> So far she is counting on it. The MINUTE you pulled on the reins, she suddenly settled down. Now every time you pull on the reins, she turns on the water works and you back down.
> 
> There is a VAST difference between being forceful and being a monster. Demanding a timeline and causing her a modicum of emotional trauma is NOT monstrous!
> 
> I get that you want love to work through this...but you keep MISSING THE POINT! SHE needs to love you back. As her husband, as her lover, as someone important to HER...supposedly, she needs to try to make you feel whole.
> 
> So you ask and you beg and you whine and honestly, any respect she has for you from jerking on her reins that first time has dwindled away...because she knows you hate the idea of divorce.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I can understand her not wanting to do that before an interview.
> 
> Honestly, besides buying you a few shirts and saying "I'm sorry" with some tears thrown in, what is she doing? Can you be specific?
> 
> The things which WILL make you whole, she refuses to do. Now...maybe the timeline ISN'T a big deal to you. Perhaps it is TAM driven. But it seems you want or need DETAILS. If THAT is what you need, you need to drive that point home!
> 
> And I would pull a totally unfair move and say 'If you loved me, if you wanted me to heal, you would tell me what I need to know.'
> 
> She is using your love for her as a shield. Why aren't you using her supposed love for you as a lever?
> 
> 
> 
> In some respects, I see this as a bit of a cop out. NO ONE feels 100% good about a D. Hell, no one feels 50% good about a D...Some people feel good about it AFTERWARDS...but even they are the minority.
> 
> If you are waiting for that certainty, you will be waiting forever. So far, you are a believer in hope over history.
> 
> I am not an advocate of divorce. In a majority of the cases, marriages can be fixed. Here is the deal though: *It takes both people working on it.* SHE needs to find ways to heal you which don't involve shirts. YOU need to extend that olive branch of forgiveness.
> 
> Well...you got all kinds of olive leaves on your hand. What is she doing? You can't answer this because she has done very little.
> 
> Allow me to postulate something: that she IS serious about staying together. She wants it on HER terms...which means that she is allowed to keep her dignity by concealing the details and control of the relationship. I am not a big believer in 'control' either...and particularly not for her.
> 
> But you continue to allow this to happen...and you talk about how hopeful you are and how things are going swimmingly. You have your shirts. Life is good.
> 
> That is a pretty cheap price. If you are going to sell yourself, hold out for a car or Rolex.


Actually feeling very good today. Wakeup sex initiated by her isn't a bad start to the day ever. The advise here is great and I am listening to it all. 

As far as things she has done for me, there hasn't been any huge act bestowed upon me. She has been very loving, affectionate, complimentary, appreciative, apologetic, tearful, remorseful and sensitive to how I am feeling. She has been there for me I guess. Yes, when we went shopping she bought a bunch of stuff for me but that's not too uncommon. She always did that - just not lately. So I don't think she was trying to buy forgiveness or ease her guilt just returning to how she used to be. Maybe the truth is somewhere between the two. She tells me what an incredible person I am for giving her/us another chance and how she never wants to mess that up again. How she wants to keep what we are doing now pure and without lies. She has always taken pride in herself and how she has acted and she is certainly not proud of these actions. Always held herself to a higher standard, but in many ways can't now or at least needs to start rebuilding toward that end.

I would love to see a heart felt card from her or a several page letter of apology thinking through her actions over the last several months and her understanding how it must have made me feel. Put herself in my shoes for a minute. I haven't asked for that nor will I. During the 5 month period following DDay1, and before finding TAM, I wrote a letter of apology to her for all the things I felt I did wrong during the marriage and with our relationship. I believe we let it get away from us and wanted to acknowledge my part for the failure in the marriage. Not the Affair as she owns all of that.

When she came clean on the affair, her exact words were, "I planned on taking this to the grave, but couldn't continue lying to you." Of course, that proved to be wrong over the following 5 months that she continued to contact him. 

To answer a question someone posted, the timeline of events from begining to end with all details isn't what's important to me right now. What is important is that the lies told are corrected and I know the truth about what was told to me. If it was lie or an excuse I want to know it. TO KNOW IT. With proof if necessary. I want to believe her again and I dont' think I really can if she never comes clean or is not willing to own up to her lies now. If I was deceived for alterior motives I want to know. If she was in town with him at a hotel and was supposed to be out of town on a business trip i want to know. If she flew out of town for the day to be with him and came back later that night after "working late" I want that revealed to me. I want lies and deceit on the table. I know what happened over that period of time. I don't need physical details of what took place or exactly how many times but as Tom Cruise said it best, "I WANT THE TRUTH"! 

I don't think it will be a deal breaker for me to find out additional lies, even though it might sting alittle. But if she doesn't confess things I don't know and only reluctantly admits to those things I do know, when I know there has to be dates/times I'm not aware of, I will struggle with whether she is truly remorseful and willing to what is necessary for me/us. 

I plan on having a "truth talk" tonight. It's been a good day for me hopefully a good night will follow. These discussions are emotionally draining. Not going to reveal toll information but will use it along with my timeline to mine for the truth from her.

Thanks to ALL!


----------



## turnera

illwill said:


> Buying clothes and cooking for you is easy. Her willingness to go through the shame and pain of what she inflicted upon you, is the real indication of her remorse. She does not get to choose what you need from her. You do. And it is on your timetable not hers.


One of the things I always advise BSs to do is to tell the fWS that you expect them to go to their parents and admit what they did or, if they already know, to apologize to them. With you watching. 

Why? Because that humiliation of seeing the disappointment in your own parents' eyes, to me, is the BIGGEST wakeup call of them all. That humility, to me, is KEY to rebuilding a real marriage. Without it, she is just a flattering remark away from another roll in the hay.


----------



## azteca1986

Bearing in mind your thread title, I just wanted to bring some perspective.



Road Scholar said:


> Actually feeling very good today. *Wakeup sex initiated by her *isn't a bad start to the day ever. The advise here is great and I am listening to it all.
> 
> As far as things she has done for me, there hasn't been any huge act bestowed upon me. *She has been very loving, affectionate, complimentary, appreciative*, apologetic, tearful, remorseful and *sensitive to how I am feeling.* *She has been there for me I guess. * Yes, when we went shopping *she bought a bunch of stuff for me* but that's not too uncommon. She always did that - just not lately. So I don't think she was trying to buy forgiveness or ease her guilt just returning to how she used to be. Maybe the truth is somewhere between the two. *She tells me what an incredible person I am* for giving her/us another chance and how *she never wants to mess that up *again. How she wants to keep what we are doing now pure and without lies. *She has always taken pride in herself and how she has acted *and she is certainly not proud of these actions. *Always held herself to a higher standard,* but in many ways can't now or at least needs to start rebuilding toward that end.


The bolded bits are just normal, everyday things wives do.


----------



## Road Scholar

turnera said:


> One of the things I always advise BSs to do is to tell the fWS that you expect them to go to their parents and admit what they did or, if they already know, to apologize to them. With you watching.
> 
> Why? Because that humiliation of seeing the disappointment in your own parents' eyes, to me, is the BIGGEST wakeup call of them all. That humility, to me, is KEY to rebuilding a real marriage. Without it, she is just a flattering remark away from another roll in the hay.


I thought about revealing this to her Dad. She has always put him on a pedestal and is constantly looking for his approval. Oddly, or strangely, or whatever you want to call it, he was cheated on by his wife, my wife's mother. So he felt the pain I have felt. He lived it. It, among other reasons, ended their marriage. Something my wife has long resented about her mother 'til this very day, along with other things.

The shame, embarrassment, and humiliation she would feel would be nearly unbearable for her I would imagine. That realization that he would find out about it if we did D may have been part of her wakeup call. I don't really know. It would crush her and eventually at some point, she would defend herself by letting him know private details of our marriage that contributed to the cheating. While she would say there is no defending it, she would attempt to rationalize it possibly by putting all the dirty laundry on the table. I have done things I am NOT proud of in the marriage....

I could see it play out that way.


----------



## turnera

Then you both go visit him, you admit your part in mishandling your marriage, and then you turn to his daughter, and you say 'now W has something she wants to tell you.'


----------



## Wazza

turnera said:


> Then you both go visit him, you admit your part in mishandling your marriage, and then you turn to his daughter, and you say 'now W has something she wants to tell you.'


This punishment idea is popular on TAM but I don't buy it.

Eventually you have to rebuild something loving and positive if you want a continued marriage. I can't see how tattooing "cheater" on your wife's forehead (symbolically) helps that.


----------



## turnera

It's not punishment. It's you wanting a wife who understands the gravity of what she did so that she never considers doing it again, because she'll remember how it affected her dad.

If she doesn't want to do that, that's fine. I'd move on. But I would never R without that level of willingness to make up for it, as I'd assume that that level of self-protection just means more CYA.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Road Scholar said:


> Actually feeling very good today. Wakeup sex initiated by her isn't a bad start to the day ever. The advise here is great and I am listening to it all.
> 
> As far as things she has done for me, there hasn't been any huge act bestowed upon me. She has been very loving, affectionate, complimentary, appreciative, apologetic, tearful, remorseful and sensitive to how I am feeling. She has been there for me I guess. Yes, when we went shopping she bought a bunch of stuff for me but that's not too uncommon. She always did that - just not lately. So I don't think she was trying to buy forgiveness or ease her guilt just returning to how she used to be. Maybe the truth is somewhere between the two. She tells me what an incredible person I am for giving her/us another chance and how she never wants to mess that up again.* How she wants to keep what we are doing now pure and without lies.* She has always taken pride in herself and how she has acted and she is certainly not proud of these actions. Always held herself to a higher standard, but in many ways can't now or at least needs to start rebuilding toward that end.
> 
> I would love to see a heart felt card from her or a several page letter of apology thinking through her actions over the last several months and her understanding how it must have made me feel. Put herself in my shoes for a minute. I haven't asked for that nor will I. During the 5 month period following DDay1, and before finding TAM, I wrote a letter of apology to her for all the things I felt I did wrong during the marriage and with our relationship. I believe we let it get away from us and wanted to acknowledge my part for the failure in the marriage. Not the Affair as she owns all of that.
> 
> *When she came clean on the affair, her exact words were, "I planned on taking this to the grave, but couldn't continue lying to you." Of course, that proved to be wrong over the following 5 months that she continued to contact him. *
> 
> *To answer a question someone posted, the timeline of events from begining to end with all details isn't what's important to me right now. What is important is that the lies told are corrected and I know the truth about what was told to me. If it was lie or an excuse I want to know it. TO KNOW IT. * With proof if necessary. I want to believe her again and I dont' think I really can if she never comes clean or is not willing to own up to her lies now. If I was deceived for alterior motives I want to know. If she was in town with him at a hotel and was supposed to be out of town on a business trip i want to know. If she flew out of town for the day to be with him and came back later that night after "working late" I want that revealed to me. I want lies and deceit on the table. I know what happened over that period of time. I don't need physical details of what took place or exactly how many times but as Tom Cruise said it best, "I WANT THE TRUTH"!
> 
> *I don't think it will be a deal breaker for me to find out additional lies, even though it might sting alittle. But if she doesn't confess things I don't know and only reluctantly admits to those things I do know, when I know there has to be dates/times I'm not aware of, I will struggle with whether she is truly remorseful and willing to what is necessary for me/us. *
> 
> I plan on having a "truth talk" tonight. It's been a good day for me hopefully a good night will follow. These discussions are emotionally draining. Not going to reveal toll information but will use it along with my timeline to mine for the truth from her.
> 
> Thanks to ALL!


How the hell can you believe anything she says? She's not doing anything special to win you back, her actions are average. You're falling for the words she says and seem so relieved to be back to a normal level of affection that you're willing to let her continue to hide what she's done.

You need that timeline, not because you personally have to have it, but because you need to break the intimacy that your ww and the om have. You can't let her go on carrying the secrets that the two of them share. As long as they share secrets from you they have an intimate link. Don't let your ww have an intimate link to someone she's already proven she will cheat with.

Good God, why do you think so many people are insisting that you get the timeline? Why so much emphasis? THINK!


----------



## Wazza

turnera said:


> .....that humiliation of seeing the disappointment in your own parents' eyes, to me, is the BIGGEST wakeup call of them all.





Wazza said:


> This punishment idea is popular on TAM but I don't buy it.
> 
> Eventually you have to rebuild something loving and positive if you want a continued marriage. I can't see how tattooing "cheater" on your wife's forehead (symbolically) helps that.





turnera said:


> It's not punishment. It's you wanting a wife who understands the gravity of what she did so that she never considers doing it again, because she'll remember how it affected her dad.
> 
> If she doesn't want to do that, that's fine. I'd move on. But I would never R without that level of willingness to make up for it, as I'd assume that that level of self-protection just means more CYA.


Punishment, humiliation. Semantics.

Either my wife gets how it affected US or I don't want her.

Having said that, I told my wife's parents, but the reasons was the affair was in full swing, I thought the marriage was not going to survive, and I wanted her and the kids to have support I could not provide. I don't think it saved the marriage, but I did do it.


----------



## MEM2020

Turnera,
In this marriage, that particular bullet is a 'hollow point' round due to her mothers infidelity. Her father might well trigger on this disclosure in a way that permanently damages the parent/child relationship. It is also kind of unfair to the father given his history with her mother. 

QUOTE=turnera;5087250]It's not punishment. It's you wanting a wife who understands the gravity of what she did so that she never considers doing it again, because she'll remember how it affected her dad.

If she doesn't want to do that, that's fine. I'd move on. But I would never R without that level of willingness to make up for it, as I'd assume that that level of self-protection just means more CYA.[/QUOTE]


----------



## turnera

*shrug* To each his own. I wouldn't stay in a marriage that didn't include that level of honesty. And I would look to the father and possibly mother to help stabilize their daughter and her intentions. Painful? Of course it would be painful. That's how we learn and grow.


----------



## tom67

turnera said:


> *shrug* To each his own. I wouldn't stay in a marriage that didn't include that level of honesty. And I would look to the father and possibly mother to help stabilize their daughter and her intentions. Painful? Of course it would be painful. That's how we learn and grow.


:iagree::iagree:

With actions there are consequences, that's life.


----------



## warlock07

Road Scholar;5086122[B said:


> ]I thought about revealing this to her Dad. She has always put him on a pedestal and is constantly looking for his approval. Oddly, or strangely, or whatever you want to call it, he was cheated on by his wife, my wife's mother. So he felt the pain I have felt. He lived it. It, among other reasons, ended their marriage. Something my wife has long resented about her mother 'til this very day, along with other things.
> [/B]
> *The shame, embarrassment, and humiliation she would feel would be nearly unbearable for her I would imagine*. That realization that he would find out about it if we did D may have been part of her wakeup call. I don't really know. It would crush her and eventually at some point, she would defend herself by letting him know private details of our marriage that contributed to the cheating. While she would say there is no defending it, she would attempt to rationalize it possibly by putting all the dirty laundry on the table. I have done things I am NOT proud of in the marriage....
> 
> I could see it play out that way.


we have a winner...This might be a huge huge part of her remorse. If her wake up call is shame in front of her father and family...she can always continue the A in secret. Discuss the possibility of telling her father(or her confessing on her own) and let her mull over it for a few days. True intentions might surface.


----------



## illwill

Stop giving her soft places to land. She is a adult. Perhaps if she were made to deal with the fallout from her decisions when she was younger, she would not have cheated to begin with. Tough love. Are you prepared to give her any at all?


----------



## LongWalk

It is interesting to consider it from the father's point of view. Would exposing him to such a trigger be unkind to him? Good question. As a compromise short of actually revealing anything to him, why not get together with him. Does he live far away?

Invite him to dinner. Let your wife see you talking with him. Let her think about the choice she made. Do you get along well with him?

If you your wife becomes recidivist, you will always be able to go back to him and share this unpleasant reality about his daughter.


----------



## harrybrown

If there are no consequences for cheating, no timeline, and she went back to him after the first D-day for 5 months, you are making it very easy to continue the affair, or start up with someone new.

Man up! She does not respect you.


----------



## Wazza

turnera said:


> *shrug* To each his own. I wouldn't stay in a marriage that didn't include that level of honesty. And I would look to the father and possibly mother to help stabilize their daughter and her intentions. Painful? Of course it would be painful. That's how we learn and grow.


Pathos reads to me your idea of honesty in a marriage is your partner tells your parents all your serious faults or makes sure you do. I don't see it that way.

Mrs Wazza and I are a team, us against the world. Not perfectly so, but I am her partner, not her jailer. Long term, I agree with the need for strength, but the real consequences are enough. I don't need to invent them.


----------



## LongWalk

Exposure to family must always consider the family. Suppose you don't have perfect relationship with certain family members, perhaps you don't want them to get dirt on your spouse because they will use it for nefarious purposes, including destroying your marriage.

Exposure has to be judicious.


----------



## turnera

LongWalk said:


> It is interesting to consider it from the father's point of view. Would exposing him to such a trigger be unkind to him?


If YOUR child were destroying her life, would YOU want to know?


----------



## turnera

LongWalk said:


> Exposure to family must always consider the family. Suppose you don't have perfect relationship with certain family members, perhaps you don't want them to get dirt on your spouse because they will use it for nefarious purposes, including destroying your marriage.
> 
> Exposure has to be judicious.


 Ok, you got me. If your dad is a murderous, abusive, dysfunctional mean person, of course you don't expose to him. 

Most of us don't have to deal with that.


----------



## Wazza

turnera said:


> If YOUR child were destroying her life, would YOU want to know?


Destroying her life? People survive divorce.

Past a certain age your kids are their own masters. You love them, you care for them, and you try to be there to help them out when you can. But sometimes you just have to let them do stuff you disagree with.

What do you expect the father to do with this information?


----------



## Wazza

turnera said:


> Ok, you got me. If your dad is a murderous, abusive, dysfunctional mean person, of course you don't expose to him.
> 
> Most of us don't have to deal with that.


With respect......most families have elements of stress
Not doesn't have to be murderous or abusive to have that.


----------



## turnera

Wazza said:


> Destroying her life? People survive divorce.
> 
> Past a certain age your kids are their own masters. You love them, you care for them, and you try to be there to help them out when you can. But sometimes you just have to let them do stuff you disagree with.
> 
> What do you expect the father to do with this information?


 If he is a decent dad, I expect him to take her over his knew figuratively and ream her a new one.

That's what parents do.

That's how kids learn.


----------



## Nucking Futs

turnera said:


> If he is a decent dad, I expect him to *take her over his knew figuratively and ream her a new one.*
> 
> That's what parents do.
> 
> That's how kids learn.


Am I the only one that took this in a really perverted direction?


----------



## tom67

Nucking Futs said:


> Am I the only one that took this in a really perverted direction?


:wtf:


----------



## Wazza

turnera said:


> If he is a decent dad, I expect him to take her over his knew figuratively and ream her a new one.
> 
> That's what parents do.
> 
> That's how kids learn.


But she is not a kid, she is an adult. How often did you obey your parents once you were older and moved out of home?

She has the right to her choices. Infidelity and divorce are allowed. Dad has to respect that. I can only ever give my adult children advice if they want to receive it.


----------



## Wazza

Nucking Futs said:


> Am I the only one that took this in a really perverted direction?


Yes.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: No sex after her affair...*



Nucking Futs said:


> Am I the only one that took this in a really perverted direction?


No comment


----------



## illwill

Nucking Futs said:


> Am I the only one that took this in a really perverted direction?


Yeah.


----------



## terrence4159

you say you want to stay for the kids....so kids copy their parents (not all the time but 90%) so you want your kids to be cheaters or cheated on. she is not sorry she cheated she is sorry her cheating is a little harder to do. she still is sleeping with him at work. you said you were 99% sure the affair was over...well before you found out she was cheating i bet you were 100% SURE she would never cheat.

she is showing 0 signs of wanting a R while you are showing 182,293 signs she knows she has you where she wants you and her om still gets her where he want because you will not do anything to stop it.


----------



## illwill

He is not really staying for the kids.


----------



## Decorum

Road Scholar said:


> Actually feeling very good today. Wakeup sex initiated by her isn't a bad start to the day ever. The advise here is great and I am listening to it all.
> 
> As far as things she has done for me, there hasn't been any huge act bestowed upon me. She has been very loving, affectionate, complimentary, appreciative, apologetic, tearful, remorseful and sensitive to how I am feeling. She has been there for me I guess. Yes, when we went shopping she bought a bunch of stuff for me but that's not too uncommon. She always did that - just not lately. So I don't think she was trying to buy forgiveness or ease her guilt just returning to how she used to be. Maybe the truth is somewhere between the two. She tells me what an incredible person I am for giving her/us another chance and how she never wants to mess that up again. How she wants to keep what we are doing now pure and without lies. She has always taken pride in herself and how she has acted and she is certainly not proud of these actions. Always held herself to a higher standard, but in many ways can't now or at least needs to start rebuilding toward that end.
> 
> I would love to see a heart felt card from her or a several page letter of apology thinking through her actions over the last several months and her understanding how it must have made me feel. Put herself in my shoes for a minute. I haven't asked for that nor will I. During the 5 month period following DDay1, and before finding TAM, I wrote a letter of apology to her for all the things I felt I did wrong during the marriage and with our relationship. I believe we let it get away from us and wanted to acknowledge my part for the failure in the marriage. Not the Affair as she owns all of that.
> 
> When she came clean on the affair, her exact words were, "I planned on taking this to the grave, but couldn't continue lying to you." Of course, that proved to be wrong over the following 5 months that she continued to contact him.
> 
> To answer a question someone posted, the timeline of events from begining to end with all details isn't what's important to me right now. What is important is that the lies told are corrected and I know the truth about what was told to me. If it was lie or an excuse I want to know it. TO KNOW IT. With proof if necessary. I want to believe her again and I dont' think I really can if she never comes clean or is not willing to own up to her lies now. If I was deceived for alterior motives I want to know. If she was in town with him at a hotel and was supposed to be out of town on a business trip i want to know. If she flew out of town for the day to be with him and came back later that night after "working late" I want that revealed to me. I want lies and deceit on the table. I know what happened over that period of time. I don't need physical details of what took place or exactly how many times but as Tom Cruise said it best, "I WANT THE TRUTH"!
> 
> I don't think it will be a deal breaker for me to find out additional lies, even though it might sting alittle. But if she doesn't confess things I don't know and only reluctantly admits to those things I do know, when I know there has to be dates/times I'm not aware of, I will struggle with whether she is truly remorseful and willing to what is necessary for me/us.
> 
> I plan on having a "truth talk" tonight. It's been a good day for me hopefully a good night will follow. These discussions are emotionally draining. Not going to reveal toll information but will use it along with my timeline to mine for the truth from her.
> 
> Thanks to ALL!



RS, I cant speak to the current discussion but this just feels right to me. I think she is genuine in her appreciation.

Giving her some assurance that more revelations will not change your commitment to the marriage may yield some benefit.

Letting her know that clearing her conscience is important to you because it will enable her to give herself fully to you, because that is what you desire most, is a crucial step.

This is good for her and good for the relationship, you want her to be free.

I think you have a foundation to build on.

I'm glad for you.

If you truly love her you will want her to be truly free and honest.

Like I said telling her dad and all that I just don't know, but the more honest she is with you the better your relationship will be because she will be truly free to love you.

I wish you well,
Take care.


----------



## Decorum

illwill said:


> He is not really staying for the kids.


:iagree:

yeah they say this but I always have the feeling that it has more to do with the chemical bonding in the brain.

I'm not sure what you meant Illwill so I am just inferring here but I think there is a purpose for that bonding because it carries a relationship though a rough time.

I will admit it drives me crazy when a Bs stays with a spouse who will still cheat because they feel that bond.

At that point I want the intellect to rule and expect some change and some new boundaries.

But I may be way off of what you meant.

Knowing ourselves is worth it's weight in life history!


----------



## Will_Kane

Road Scholar said:


> To answer a question someone posted, the timeline of events from begining to end with all details isn't what's important to me right now. What is important is that the lies told are corrected and I know the truth about what was told to me. If it was lie or an excuse I want to know it. TO KNOW IT. With proof if necessary. I want to believe her again and I dont' think I really can if she never comes clean or is not willing to own up to her lies now. If I was deceived for alterior motives I want to know. If she was in town with him at a hotel and was supposed to be out of town on a business trip i want to know. If she flew out of town for the day to be with him and came back later that night after "working late" I want that revealed to me. I want lies and deceit on the table. I know what happened over that period of time. I don't need physical details of what took place or exactly how many times but as Tom Cruise said it best, "I WANT THE TRUTH"!


This is basically the same as a timeline. If you keep pushing for it, you will get it. If your wife is like most cheaters, the first version still will be full of holes and inconsistencies - in other words, lies and omissions. When you get a story that makes sense to you, that is not full of holes and inconsistencies, that agrees with what your gut tells you and agrees with all known facts, then you will have a version that is at least close to the truth.

No matter how smart or sneaky the cheater is, there almost always are things that they don't think of that come back to bite them later - in your case, for example, the toll receipts.

Tell your wife what you posted above.


----------



## JCD

Road Scholar said:


> Actually feeling very good today. Wakeup sex initiated by her isn't a bad start to the day ever. The advise here is great and I am listening to it all.
> 
> As far as things she has done for me, there hasn't been any huge act bestowed upon me. She has been very loving, affectionate, complimentary, appreciative, apologetic, tearful, remorseful and sensitive to how I am feeling. She has been there for me I guess. Yes, when we went shopping she bought a bunch of stuff for me but that's not too uncommon. She always did that - just not lately. So I don't think she was trying to buy forgiveness or ease her guilt just returning to how she used to be. Maybe the truth is somewhere between the two. She tells me what an incredible person I am for giving her/us another chance and how she never wants to mess that up again. How she wants to keep what we are doing now pure and without lies. She has always taken pride in herself and how she has acted and she is certainly not proud of these actions. Always held herself to a higher standard, but in many ways can't now or at least needs to start rebuilding toward that end.
> 
> I would love to see a heart felt card from her or a several page letter of apology thinking through her actions over the last several months and her understanding how it must have made me feel. Put herself in my shoes for a minute. I haven't asked for that nor will I. During the 5 month period following DDay1, and before finding TAM, I wrote a letter of apology to her for all the things I felt I did wrong during the marriage and with our relationship. I believe we let it get away from us and wanted to acknowledge my part for the failure in the marriage. Not the Affair as she owns all of that.
> 
> When she came clean on the affair, her exact words were, "I planned on taking this to the grave, but couldn't continue lying to you." Of course, that proved to be wrong over the following 5 months that she continued to contact him.
> 
> To answer a question someone posted, the timeline of events from begining to end with all details isn't what's important to me right now. What is important is that the lies told are corrected and I know the truth about what was told to me. If it was lie or an excuse I want to know it. TO KNOW IT. With proof if necessary. I want to believe her again and I dont' think I really can if she never comes clean or is not willing to own up to her lies now. If I was deceived for alterior motives I want to know. If she was in town with him at a hotel and was supposed to be out of town on a business trip i want to know. If she flew out of town for the day to be with him and came back later that night after "working late" I want that revealed to me. I want lies and deceit on the table. I know what happened over that period of time. I don't need physical details of what took place or exactly how many times but as Tom Cruise said it best, "I WANT THE TRUTH"!
> 
> I don't think it will be a deal breaker for me to find out additional lies, even though it might sting alittle. But if she doesn't confess things I don't know and only reluctantly admits to those things I do know, when I know there has to be dates/times I'm not aware of, I will struggle with whether she is truly remorseful and willing to what is necessary for me/us.
> 
> I plan on having a "truth talk" tonight. It's been a good day for me hopefully a good night will follow. These discussions are emotionally draining. Not going to reveal toll information but will use it along with my timeline to mine for the truth from her.
> 
> Thanks to ALL!


We had (have?) a poster. His wife went off and had an affair with a personal trainer. She was caught (how, I have no idea) and she withheld sex from him. Said she didn't feel she wanted it.

So...he instituted 'The Plan' where he tries to be the absolute BEST HUSBAND EVER...or some crap like that. He did not monitor her, he did not insist she cancel her gym membership, he did not insist on cutting contact. HIS PLAN was to be this perfect husband until she 'got into the mood' on her own and wanted to ravish him by her own recognizance.

Correct me if I'm wrong readers, but he waited TWO YEARS until she finally threw him a bone....and for some reason, I think 'ravish' wasn't the term to use for it.

So...are you spontaneously waiting for the truth? Waiting for her to 'ravish you' with details and confessions from a woman who said she'd take this to her grave? Good luck with that.

Okay, let me step back a bit.

There are two functions for TAM: to try to help 'fix' bad marriages and to provide an emotional outlet to the people involved.

MY goal is to help heal you. For that, you have this truth you need. My advice is simple: go get it! You know where it is!

YOUR goal maybe different. So let me give you advice on how I see your goals in order of YOUR seeming priority.

If you want to *continue* the marriage, stop asking questions, don't drink and get rough with her anymore. Get some anger management and never bring this up again.

You will, for a while at least, still have a marriage. It might even last until the kids are in college. This is an admirable goal in itself. Please note I am not promising happiness, sex or a GOOD marriage. Because when her guilt runs out, so will all this early morning sex.

If you want to *fix* your marriage, you need to be healed and feel that your marriage will continue. SHE has to be onboard and not just afraid of loss of reputation and her kids. I believe strongly that this will require her to put a lot more facts on the table.

However, there is a risk. The cost to her may be too high and she would rather end it than pay the price.

So you need to figure out what YOUR terms are to 'fix' things...and you need to find out what SHE will be willing to do...and find out if there is any middle ground.

Reconciliation is a long process. So is dying of infection, emotional or otherwise.

Figure out which path you are on...because it sounds like you are NOT getting what you need AND you are VERY HESITANT AND PASSIVE about ASKING for what you need.

Quick joke:

A church needed a new pastor. So they had a line of preachers come into the church. One guy came in and the congregation was LOVED IT. So they hired him on the spot.

The next Sunday, the Pastor got on the pulpit and gave the EXACT SAME SERMON. The people looked at each other. Anyone can make mistakes. So they were polite. It was still a good sermon but...they had heard it before.

The third Sunday came and the Pastor gave the SAME SERMON AGAIN. So the church elders came to him and said "Um...Pastor...do you realize that you gave the EXACT SAME SERMON three Sundays in a row now?"

The Pastor smiled and nodded. "I do. And when you get that one right, I have another ready for you!"

I have said the same thing three times. If you use that advice or you come with a NEW problem, I have more advice for you. I am not so good at hand holding since badgers are quadrupeds. 

Until then, the Sermon remains the same.


----------



## LongWalk

turnera said:


> Ok, you got me. If your dad is a murderous, abusive, dysfunctional mean person, of course you don't expose to him.
> 
> Most of us don't have to deal with that.


My mother email copies my two SIL about everything going on in her life. My mother is a super busy body and has alienated both of my SIL at times by being pushy. However, both of my SIL have 180'd her from time to time and cut back her relations with grandchildren. My mother felt the pain big time and recognized that she would never be the boss of DIL. She realized that neither of her sons would be the primary decision makers in their families. Now my mother always defers to them.

Furthermore, she sends all her most intimate thoughts and affairs to them for discussion and consultation, without asking herself if they are truly interested. She documents and details everything regarding my Alzheimer's ill father to them, every gory loss of bowl control without a diaper.

All of our original family financial affairs are discussed with SIL, including will, funerals, death, gifts. I think that it should be up to my brothers to decide what they want to share about our family with their wives, not my mother. I don't want to discuss whether my father's body should go to the medical school for dissection with my SIL. He is not their father.

I told my mother not to email copy me in these nearly daily communications. She would not respect my wishes, until at last I stopped emailing and calling. Suddenly after several months of relative silence, she writes me individual emails in which I can discuss thought privately.

So the problem is not merely that someone might have bad intentions. Some people are not discrete. 

Knowledge is power. My SIL are very controlling of my brothers.

RS's FIL may be a very a very wise person who is capable of dealing with the information in positive way. If so, by all means it would positive for this wife to tell her father that she made the same mistake. However, he is not capable of handling it, then it can have unexpected results.



> If you want to *continue* the marriage, stop asking questions, don't drink and get rough with her anymore. Get some anger management and never bring this up again.
> 
> You will, for a while at least, still have a marriage. It might even last until the kids are in college. This is an admirable goal in itself. Please note I am not promising happiness, sex or a GOOD marriage. Because when her guilt runs out, so will all this early morning sex.
> 
> If you want to *fix* your marriage, you need to be healed and feel that your marriage will continue. SHE has to be onboard and not just afraid of loss of reputation and her kids. I believe strongly that this will require her to put a lot more facts on the table.
> 
> However, there is a risk. The cost to her may be too high and she would rather end it than pay the price.


:iagree:

She will ultimately be happier if she chooses the latter.

Read JustGrinding's letter that he never sent to his WW. Amazing.

re: Healing
Right now you are feeling so much better because your wife has chosen you. That is good. You are having sex again. Good.

The horrible fact that will make closure difficult is the knowledge that your wife really enjoyed her sexual and emotional connection to him. You don't know how that is going to affect you in the long term. She is over him in so far as she has control over her desire for him. Maybe when you make love she only thinks about you now. But how do you know one day, maybe three months from now or whenever she is going to masturbate and fantasize about him and only him. She is going feel a little guilty but she not going to stop.

If I were you, I would want her to look upon the sweetness of that whole experience with all pervading disquiet. You want her heart to scream at her brain to tell her clitoris and vagina that they were lying to her entire being. The poison from those lies is has not been flushed out entirely. It never will be with a long intimate affair like this.

Addiction is an inadequate description of a long affair.


----------



## Chaparral

I disagree with exposing to her father. It could very well backfire and I do not see an upside at this point. Unless of course the affai is ongoing. You don't need to harm her dad and her. Although a reference or two about what it would do to him could get her attention.

I would do the cheaterville thing and send him the link. Then sit back and watch your wife to see if he contacts her. You don't have to worry about liability as long as anything you say is what you believe.


----------



## Wazza

Decorum said:


> :iagree:
> 
> yeah they say this but I always have the feeling that it has more to do with the chemical bonding in the brain.
> 
> I'm not sure what you meant Illwill so I am just inferring here but I think there is a purpose for that bonding because it carries a relationship though a rough time.
> 
> I will admit it drives me crazy when a Bs stays with a spouse who will still cheat because they feel that bond.
> 
> At that point I want the intellect to rule and expect some change and some new boundaries.
> 
> But I may be way off of what you meant.
> 
> Knowing ourselves is worth it's weight in life history!


Interesting notion.

In my case at least it was certainly confused at first, but as I went on, the enormity of the damage hit me. The fact that none of the needs I had signed up for were being met. The way my wife spoke of my behind my back. The point, a few years after the affair, where we were able to look each other in the eye and agree we had made a mistake getting married. Sad as it was in itself, this was a turning point. Honest communication.

The bonding might have carried me through the first shock, but not the lot.


----------



## Chaparral

I meant to say, exposure is fr breaking up an affair, not spreading the hurt around. Telling her father could be very bad. It will no doubt cause him to relive his own wifes betrayal.

Re. Cheaterville. If you wife shows no reaction, he didn't contact her and that's good. If she tells you he contacted her and she cares less what he thinks that's also good. If she gets angry and has a fit, the affair ain't over. Call it the cheaterville test.


----------



## turnera

Wazza said:


> I can only ever give my adult children advice if they want to receive it.


You can give your kids advice for the rest of their lives. Do they have to TAKE your advice? No. But it's still your job to let them know what their parent feels about their actions.


----------



## turnera

Chaparral said:


> I disagree with exposing to her father. It could very well backfire and I do not see an upside at this point. Unless of course the affai is ongoing. You don't need to harm her dad and her. Although a reference or two about what it would do to him could get her attention.


That makes sense, as long as she IS working her butt off to fix the marriage. If she's just coasting, well, his best bet is to just move on. But if he's determined to stay, she needs a wakeup call.


----------



## Wazza

turnera said:


> You can give your kids advice for the rest of their lives. Do they have to TAKE your advice? No. But it's still your job to let them know what their parent feels about their actions.


I can only speak from the perspective of relationships I know. And I find it less black and white than you seem to.

I am very selective indeed about when I nag my kids. I don't know what I would do in this case. I am fairly sure my kids would know my views on the subject. My experience is that nagging them would do more harm than good.

From RS perspective, he also has to consider whether he gets on with his inlaws. I know mine tended to think highly of their children and blame the spouses for any problems. To the point where, when my wife's brother divorced, they felt the only thing he did wrong was to marry her in the first place.

But if this strategy worked for you, all good, and it is worth putting up as an option.


----------



## Road Scholar

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Road Scholar

Felt great yesterday. Feel like crap today. I guess the life of a BS trying to R. It's like she has amnesia. Can't remember. Doesn't want to remember ****. My timeline has gotten pretty tight. She admitted to Being with him now more than once during the 5 months. Which I knew anyhow from toll records. Nothing really new, just stings a little and feeling some rage. She is scared. I am again thinking D as I recount my pain during those 5 mos and how she let me twist. Starving our marriage and feeding him love and sex. If it wasn't her who was it? She says she still wants to R. 

When does the healing begin? When does it stop being considered rug sweeping and starts being considered healing and forgiveness?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LongWalk

Did she realize you knew more dates?

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


----------



## Road Scholar

LongWalk said:


> Did she realize you knew more dates?
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


Yes. I basically gave her the dates because she either cannot remember, or doesn't want to remember. I told her I have good reason to believe you were with him on such and such dates. She doesn't know how I know. I did not tell her even though she asked several times.

I really don't think she remembers or is blocking it or simply cannot admit it to me. She would leave the house on occassion and see him in the am before going to work at least that is what I believe based on data I have.


----------



## Wazza

Road Scholar said:


> Yes. I basically gave her the dates because she either cannot remember, or doesn't want to remember. I told her I have good reason to believe you were with him on such and such dates. She doesn't know how I know. I did not tell her even though she asked several times.
> 
> I really don't think she remembers or is blocking it or simply cannot admit it to me. She would leave the house on occassion and see him in the am before going to work at least that is what I believe based on data I have.


I would not expect her to remember every detail, but I don't believe she really would not remember seeing him more than once in five months. I believe that is a lie.

Hold onto your sources, but also onto some facts. When she starts admitting stuff unbidden, it helps.


----------



## Will_Kane

Road Scholar said:


> She admitted to Being with him now more than once during the 5 months. _Posted via Mobile Device_


How many times did she admit to?

I estimated every two to four weeks, which would be between 5 to 10. I would imagine she wouldn't remember every time, and might mis-count, but she would at least know it was a bunch, and if she wanted to be honest, she would tell you it was a bunch of times.

If it was two or three, she would remember exactly how many times it was.

So how many times did she admit to?

Did you ever give her the "I need truth" speech or letter?


----------



## Will_Kane

How is the job search going?

There are two important things: the truth and the job.

She won't write a timeline, which definitely would help you uncover a lot of truth. Now she can't remember, so you can't even re-construct it in your head.

And she's supposed to be looking for a job. Is this going to be a 6-12 month project?

The rug sweeping ends when she stops trying to sweep it under the rug.

I've been managing people all my life. I will give you a tip. Deadlines work. In fact, in many, many situations, without a deadline, NOTHING gets accomplished. Why do you think strikes get settled, negotiations get finished, debt ceilings get raised, with hours to go before the deadline each time?

You are negotiating the terms of your reconciliation. And the rest of your marriage. She wants to keep the status quo. Doing nothing is exactly what she wants. Have you considered giving her a deadline. Unfortunately, you have backed down so much, she absolutely WILL NOT MEET your deadline. So you will have to act on it if you give her one. No way she gives in to you until she sees you are willing to follow through. She will respect your for following through. Right now, even though she loves you, and she respects you in some respects, she does not respect you enough to give you the truth about her affair, stop lying to you, or do what she promised.

Didn't she promise a timeline and a new job, BOTH?


----------



## Thor

Road Scholar said:


> Yes. I basically gave her the dates because she either cannot remember, or doesn't want to remember. I told her I have good reason to believe you were with him on such and such dates. She doesn't know how I know. I did not tell her even though she asked several times.
> 
> I really don't think she remembers or is blocking it or simply cannot admit it to me. She would leave the house on occassion and see him in the am before going to work at least that is what I believe based on data I have.


:slap:


----------



## warlock07

Road Scholar said:


> Yes. I basically gave her the dates because she either cannot remember, or doesn't want to remember. I told her I have good reason to believe you were with him on such and such dates. She doesn't know how I know. I did not tell her even though she asked several times.
> 
> I really don't think she remembers or is blocking it or simply cannot admit it to me. She would leave the house on occassion and see him in the am before going to work at least that is what I believe based on data I have.


You are getting delusional. Your inability to separate bulls!t from reality is going to hurt you. 

She remembers the events or atleast the number of times they met. She is still lying.


----------



## harrybrown

Has she totally gone NC with POSOM? Are you sure?

She really twisted the knife during the 5 months and will only tell you what you already know. 

She is sorry she got caught, not that she had the affair. She is still keeping her A in a safe fantasy land that can be special for her. She needs to bring all the dark secrets into the light of day.
Or she will never come out of the fog and lose the special feeling in her heart for the OM>

I can not imagine someone "loving you" and treating you this way.


----------



## bfree

You know RS, much of what you write about your wife's words and actions seems to me to be fog speak. Are you absolutely sure they aren't still carrying on?


----------



## Nucking Futs

warlock07 said:


> You are getting delusional. Your inability to separate bulls!t from reality is going to hurt you.
> 
> She remembers the events or atleast the number of times they met. She is still lying.















harrybrown said:


> Has she totally gone NC with POSOM? Are you sure?
> 
> She really twisted the knife during the 5 months and will only tell you what you already know.
> 
> She is sorry she got caught, not that she had the affair. * She is still keeping her A in a safe fantasy land that can be special for her. She needs to bring all the dark secrets into the light of day.
> Or she will never come out of the fog and lose the special feeling in her heart for the OM*>
> 
> I can not imagine someone "loving you" and treating you this way.


RS, do you actually want her to be faithful to you? I have to ask because you just seem unwilling to kill the affair. You seem satisfied to force her to be more discrete about it. Out of sight out of mind?


----------



## MEM2020

*Responding to blatantly untrue statements*

Road,
The best answer to 'I can't remember' is this: 

Our primary long term responsibility in this marriage is to 'bring out the best in each other' and by doing so, set great examples of individual and team behavior to our children. 

Do you agree with that? (Get her to respond - because this is the foundation for the rest).

Part of what we are responsible for teaching our children is how to constructively deal with failure. Reconciliation is just that, an attempt to constructively deal with failure. 

How do you think trying to hide behind 'selective amnesia' fits into a reconciliation based on:
- Trust 
- Respect 
- Communication 
-----
Let her respond and then close with this:

I know you. You have the strength to do this right. So I am not going to pretend that this ongoing deceit is acceptable. You are better than this, so step up. 

---------



QUOTE=Road Scholar;5114410]Yes. I basically gave her the dates because she either cannot remember, or doesn't want to remember. I told her I have good reason to believe you were with him on such and such dates. She doesn't know how I know. I did not tell her even though she asked several times.

I really don't think she remembers or is blocking it or simply cannot admit it to me. She would leave the house on occassion and see him in the am before going to work at least that is what I believe based on data I have.[/QUOTE]


----------



## wilderness

*Re: Responding to blatantly untrue statements*



MEM11363 said:


> Road,
> The best answer to 'I can't remember' is this:
> 
> Our primary long term responsibility in this marriage is to 'bring out the best in each other' and by doing so, set great examples of individual and team behavior to our children.
> 
> Do you agree with that? (Get her to respond - because this is the foundation for the rest).
> 
> Part of what we are responsible for teaching our children is how to constructively deal with failure. Reconciliation is just that, an attempt to constructively deal with failure.
> 
> How do you think trying to hide behind 'selective amnesia' fits into a reconciliation based on:
> - Trust
> - Respect
> - Communication
> -----
> Let her respond and then close with this:
> 
> I know you. You have the strength to do this right. So I am not going to pretend that this ongoing deceit is acceptable. You are better than this, so step up.
> 
> ---------
> 
> 
> 
> QUOTE=Road Scholar;5114410]Yes. I basically gave her the dates because she either cannot remember, or doesn't want to remember. I told her I have good reason to believe you were with him on such and such dates. She doesn't know how I know. I did not tell her even though she asked several times.
> 
> I really don't think she remembers or is blocking it or simply cannot admit it to me. She would leave the house on occassion and see him in the am before going to work at least that is what I believe based on data I have.


[/QUOTE]

How about the next time she wants you to pay a bill, clean the dishes, make a bed, etc etc...
"I couldn't remember."

Put it right back on her. If she has CRS (can't remember expletive) disease, you caught it from her. It must be contagious.


----------



## Thor

Mem, that was right on the money. 

His wife is avoiding telling the truth due to some misguided rationalization in her own mind. Your post totally blows her delusional logic right out of the water.

It also defuses any power struggle she might be playing.

The only addition I would suggest to Road is that there be some definite boundary established. The best would be one stated to her. "I am not able to stay in a relationship with someone who is not willing to work constructively to rebuild from failure". If Road isn't ready to say such a thing, he needs to know in his own heart where his line in the sand is.

Without a boundary there is no R.


----------



## 2asdf2

Thor said:


> Mem, that was right on the money.
> 
> His wife is avoiding telling the truth due to some misguided rationalization in her own mind. *Your post totally blows her delusional logic right out of the water.*
> 
> It also defuses any power struggle she might be playing.
> 
> The only addition I would suggest to Road is that there be some definite boundary established. The best would be one stated to her. "I am not able to stay in a relationship with someone who is not willing to work constructively to rebuild from failure". If Road isn't ready to say such a thing, he needs to know in his own heart where his line in the sand is.
> 
> Without a boundary there is no R.


While I agree wholeheartedly with you, let me make the point that WS never follow logic. Attempting to follow a train of cheating thought logically seldom leads to the desired result. Unfortunately.


----------



## LongWalk

Lovemytruck said:


> :iagree::iagree::iagree:
> 
> Great post! I could have quoted all of it. The part that is quoted above is the essence of why it is better to pursue D over R after a betrayal.
> 
> Kudos Longwalk! Very well written.


Thank you. I only copy and rewrite what others have said before.

RoadScholar,

Remember this?



> This am, she asked if I was in contact with his wife. I pretty much lost it. I said that should be the last thing you're worried about. *She said she wants me to focus on us not them*. So there are still warning signs that she may not be 100% here with me yet.


She was defending OM from his wife's anger. Poor guy. Did you expose? If you did good. If you did not, do it now. If OM contacts her and she talks with him, that is a violation of NC.

Put him on Cheaterville. If you're wife is upset and asks why, tell her that on the outside you are nice guy but on the inside you are a whisky drinkin SOB from the wrong side of the tracks in a county where nobody read a book last year. Add that once the kids are asleep, you'll be in the mood for some lovin.

OM's wife may be interested in swapping notes on the affair you can provide timeline data to each other.


----------



## MEM2020

They respond best to a combination of carrot and stick.

That was the carrot. The stick would be Road then adding this when she resists/rationalizes:

I am here, for now . Let me know when you are willing to be straight with me. Until then, let's limit our interaction to kids / schedules. And then go into a true 180 while continuing to demand total transparency. 





2asdf2 said:


> While I agree wholeheartedly with you, let me make the point that WS never follow logic. Attempting to follow a train of cheating thought logically seldom leads to the desired result. Unfortunately.


----------



## Shaggy

It's been weeks.

How many interviews has she had?

Sorry, but is still thinks she's trying to keep with him. Maybe she's just buying time until he and his wife don't work out and he runs to her?

Tine to nuke mr. Executive at work.


----------



## JCD

OP has disappeared. It seems the talks have not gone well.

Might I add that this man has stated FIRMLY that he wants to R so all this advice telling him how wrong he is to do so is counterproductive.

At this point we need to teach him how to SUCCESSFULLY R, not vent our wishes at him.


----------



## Wazza

How is it going RS?


----------



## LongWalk

Life is a tricky business. TAM sells a particular formula. It is probably a good one but all medicine can be toxic if taken in high doses.

I can imagine a wayward spouse who is at a particular spot in the R process and they want to put their heart into R and the love coming back but a hard approach chokes the R to death. In all human intercourse it is possible to overplay a hand and cause a reply that is a reaction from which there is no return.

Remember Rookie? His wife said that his manhood was smaller that OM's. It took two years them to reconcile. What if he had blasted her with similar attacks over and over? What then. As it was it took ages of quiet communication to win back trust.


----------



## walkonmars

LongWalk said:


> Life is tricky business. TAM sells a particular formula. It is probably a good one but all medicine can be toxic if taken in high doses.
> 
> I can imagine a wayward spouse who is at a particular spot in the R process and they want to put their heart into R and the love coming back but a hard approach chokes the R to death. In all human intercourse it is possible to overplay a hand and cause a reply that is a reaction from which there is no return.
> 
> Remember Rookie? His wife said that his manhood was smaller that OM's. It took two years them to reconcile. What is he had blasted her with similar attacks over and over? What then. As it was it took ages of quiet communication to win back trust.


Good post longwalk. Worth repeating.


----------



## Road Scholar

Hello TAM. Sorry I've kept you all in the dark but I felt like I needed to take some time this site off for a bit. Sorry to see Shaggy drop. Liked his tough love. 

Quick update. I continue to pursue R for now. My wife is still very remorseeful. Says she doesn't want to lose me or our family. She is very tearful and sometimes sobs uncontrollably while telling me how sorry she is. Point being I feel like she is sincere and is remorseful. Again she says she was not thinking clearly, like on some drug, had her priorities screwed up, but now she knows what's important, etc., etc., etc. She asks me to look at her actions now versus then and judge her based on who she is and has been for the majority of our lives versus who she was at that time, "this f*cked up person" to use her words.

6 months after Dday1 and 6 weeks after Dday2, I still go back and forth from feeling good, being happy, being together as a family, to a day or two later (or even sometimes hours later) to thinking about what she did to me during the first 2 months of the affair, then the second 5 months of the affair. How I was trying to be the perfect husband and "nice her out of it". Again wish I would have done 180 right after Dday 1 and 2. Not sure but is it too late?

I still don't have a timeline on paper but we are continuing to discuss details from time to time without making that the focus. There has been more "trickle truth" about what went on during that time. She told me that one of her business trips she came home early and spent the night with him at a hotel less than 10 miles from our house. They used to rendezvous at a hotel across the street from where I work and near the airport. Painful to hear but it was not something I knew. Another night they spent together which compounds feelings they both felt. That makes at least 3 overnighters, but I would guess there were more. 

I'm not sure if that is normal in an affair spending the night together versus just sex hookups but it seems like it was more damaging, more intense. Cuddling in bed, morning sex, all night sex, etc.

I'm still trying to get at the truth so this AM I asked for airport parking receipts for the dates she was supposedly out of town. (It doesn't prove anything because he could have been there with her and probably was althought she denies it.) Anyhow, she was confused, started to cry asking me why I'm focusing on that again and that she thought we moved past that. I said, "I'm just trying to get to the truth and get the facts. To understand that if you said you were somewhere that you were in fact there." It escalated. I became enraged and started yelling and screaming that if she would have complied with what I asked over a month ago that we could be past this but as it is I still have to mine for the details and facts. She felt attacked and said it was emotional abuse. I said fine, let's just end the abusive relationship then.

I told her I was filing for divorce this week and that I'm tired of feeling this way and see no other way out of this. I feel like when I care for her and love her, then what she did to me during that time hurts me and maybe the only way out for me is to stop caring about her and for me to move on without her. Then I could stop wondering if my wife really loves me and who does she really want to be with, etc.

I doubt she believes I will. I've threatened it before during the last 6 weeks and then we "made up" and decided to continue trying. As you all know I have been reluctant to file and she knows this. 

I believe she wants to save the marriage. I do. I believe she is trying, but it is somewhat on her terms. She has not provided a timeline and bucks when I ask for details like this am. I have a better timeline than she has because I worked at understanding it and documenting it. She says it's because I'm obsessed with it. Painful as it was and painful as the details are I did work at it. I am trying to understand it all. I go back and forth between emails between us and other events in our lives during those times. That's the really painful part and what hits home with who she became. Keeping me warm and in the dark and without sex and day dreaming of being with him. Meanwhile we're still going through the motions in our kid's lives and with our friends and family.

I want to forgive but I am really struggling with it. I am still hurting and in pain. Sometimes I think maybe I'm not being strong enough and I am focusing on me too much and my hurt versus us and our hurt and pain. She needs to heal from this too.

My priest gave a very appropriate sermon at church which felt was directed at me/us. She was in tears throughout this in mass. I know she is hurting too. It was essentially, "To be human is to keep score, to get hurt, to respond by hurting the other person back twice as bad and the cycle continues. To judge. To sit back and catch someone in a mistake or in a sin. To punish. To be Godlike is to see everything, to forgive it all, to change a little. To lead with love. To love people for who they are with all their faults" I have been trying to be more Godlike than human. Obviously it isn't working so well. 

I pray often for the strength and grace from God to rise above this. To be able to love and forgive. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone and all that. Without turning this into a religious thing, I have prayed for some time to become closer to God, to help me see opportunities to be more Godlike. I sometimes think this is HIM answering my prayer and this is my test. I'm no holy roller but I have been trying hard.

Anyhow, I was feeling very down going to church and came out feeling really pretty good because of his sermon...until Sunday night and Monday am of course. Is this just self pity? Feeling sorry for myself?

Either way it sucks.

Last week Tuesday, she told me that he was in town and briefly stopped by her office to ask if her boss was around. She sits next to her boss. She said there was no other conversation and it was a 5 second fly by with no additional conversation. It was volunteered information from her that I did not know, but I still went nuts. She suspected that he might be in town that week and yet said nothing to me beforehand. I came home on Tuesday night and asked if she had seen him or how work went or something along those lines which is when she told me this. Eventually we got past it.

This weekend she tells me he will be in town for a program they are both involved with for work. It slipped her mind and she hasn't been thinking about it. It's from Tuesday pm thru Friday pm with dinners and other work sessions during the day. She told me she was not planning on going to the sessions that he would be at and would only attend those he wasn't. I immediately wanted to go balistic but held it together, barely. I basically said our marriage is on the line and you're talking about going to this thing that is really NOT mandatory where he may possibly be attending in certain functions and not others AND in a hotel for the week. Really? I said, you are leaving the company, why do you care? I said, if it were me I would back out of the program completely and give some BS reason that would be acceptable. Work is too busy. Personal reasons. Health reasons. Who gives a sh*t what you say or what anyone else thinks. It makes me wonder if she is testing the waters with me, but I don't know. Again she is volunteering this information and feels slightly attacked after doing so. I can't help it. 

She accepted my suggestion and thanked me for talking to her about it rationally. She understands my POV, but it's very disappointing to me that she would not have backed out of this herself and let me know that instead of sorta asking for permission to go to parts of it. She's not really sure how I'm getting my information so may feeled compelled to tell me when he is in town. Don't really know, but I know it bugs her that I know things and she has no idea how. She would also have been unavailable during a good part of the day during the week and needed to tell me because of that.

Those two recent disclosures last week and this week I think have added to my outbursts this am. Other than that life has been pretty normal! 

I will await the onslaught. (AND yes still reading the book NMMNG)


----------



## warlock07

> Anyhow, she was confused, started to cry asking me why I'm focusing on that again and that she thought we moved past that. I said, "I'm just trying to get to the truth and get the facts. To understand that if you said you were somewhere that you were in fact there." It escalated. I became enraged and started yelling and screaming that if she would have complied with what I asked over a month ago that we could be past this but as it is I still have to mine for the details and facts. She felt attacked and said it was emotional abuse. I said fine, let's just end the abusive relationship then.


This is manipulation. Anytime you give her hard questions, she will start crying with no real answers. Then soon she will start getting impatient with your question for not having moved on. Oh, this is happening already, right!!

For once file for divorce. Start being a man of word. Sooner or later, by making these half assed empty divorce threats, you are only making it comfortable for her to get used to the idea of divorce...Remember, she is already much detached from you. Divorce is long process. You can stop it anytime in the middle. But for now, she should realize that you really mean divorce when you say it...

And tell her family about her infidelity. She is already using the emotional abuse word.. Soon, it will be that she is divorcing you because of the emotional abuse. 

Take control of the situation and stop being a gullible fool. This is not going to end up well if things go as they are going now...


----------



## warlock07

She still hasn't given you a timeline or the complete truth..Good luck man...


----------



## tom67

This is what happens when a cheater isn't faced with consequences.
The fact that she would attend this non manditory conference is telling.
If she goes to that file plain and simple.


----------



## warlock07

Ok, after reading the last two paragraphs....


:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:


I am going to take a break from this thread or I am going to break my laptop keyboard...

Do you have a friend/sbling you talk the infidelity stuff with ? Who else knows about this other than you two and the OM?

You R is going to end up in failure. Only you will end up a humiliated heart broken man during the process...

I wish your wife is kind enough to let you go...


----------



## harrybrown

She is still protecting the POSOM. She has not gone NC.

Is she is counseling and still no timeline? 

File for divorce now! When will you respect yourself? She does not respect you. Affairs love the dark and secrecy. She keeps her affair with him in her lovey dovey heart, and you are the backup plan.

What would she do if you had the affair? She would bust your balls. You will never get there with the nice crap. This is war and she is your enemy and still in love and contact with the POSOM.


----------



## TDSC60

You cannot fully forgive, heal and have a successful R with her if you feel that she is still not completely truthful.

How can you forgive IF YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT IT IS THAT YOU ARE EXPECTED TO FORGIVE?


----------



## turnera

What have her consequences been?


----------



## warlock07

A husband you empathizes too much to the detriment of the marriage..


----------



## Ovid

I told my W that her A was as much a part of my life as it was hers, but that she had the entire puzzle and I only had pieces. I told her I needed to understand the A or I could never get over it, and I would never understand it without the entire puzzle. Tell your WW this and see how she responds. Mine gave me everything.


----------



## MEM2020

Road,
This isn't about her. This is about you. 

Adult temper tantrums. Screaming. Threatening divorce while out of your mind with rage. 

What do you expect to come of that? 

Her ongoing bad behavior needs to be managed. If you aren't up to the job, you file and put the papers in front of her to sign. Maybe it is best to part ways because you can't expect success by demanding disclosure and then getting highly volatile when she tells you something. 

As a group, we haven't given you the best advice in terms of 'focus'. The absolute priority needed to be getting her to change jobs. Wasting all this emotional energy on disclosure, instead of staying laser focused on getting her away from the other man, was a mistake. You loop back to disclosure AFTER she has changed jobs. 






Road Scholar said:


> Hello TAM. Sorry I've kept you all in the dark but I felt like I needed to take some time this site off for a bit. Sorry to see Shaggy drop. Liked his tough love.
> 
> Quick update. I continue to pursue R for now. My wife is still very remorseeful. Says she doesn't want to lose me or our family. She is very tearful and sometimes sobs uncontrollably while telling me how sorry she is. Point being I feel like she is sincere and is remorseful. Again she says she was not thinking clearly, like on some drug, had her priorities screwed up, but now she knows what's important, etc., etc., etc. She asks me to look at her actions now versus then and judge her based on who she is and has been for the majority of our lives versus who she was at that time, "this f*cked up person" to use her words.
> 
> 6 months after Dday1 and 6 weeks after Dday2, I still go back and forth from feeling good, being happy, being together as a family, to a day or two later (or even sometimes hours later) to thinking about what she did to me during the first 2 months of the affair, then the second 5 months of the affair. How I was trying to be the perfect husband and "nice her out of it". Again wish I would have done 180 right after Dday 1 and 2. Not sure but is it too late?
> 
> I still don't have a timeline on paper but we are continuing to discuss details from time to time without making that the focus. There has been more "trickle truth" about what went on during that time. She told me that one of her business trips she came home early and spent the night with him at a hotel less than 10 miles from our house. They used to rendezvous at a hotel across the street from where I work and near the airport. Painful to hear but it was not something I knew. Another night they spent together which compounds feelings they both felt. That makes at least 3 overnighters, but I would guess there were more.
> 
> I'm not sure if that is normal in an affair spending the night together versus just sex hookups but it seems like it was more damaging, more intense. Cuddling in bed, morning sex, all night sex, etc.
> 
> I'm still trying to get at the truth so this AM I asked for airport parking receipts for the dates she was supposedly out of town. (It doesn't prove anything because he could have been there with her and probably was althought she denies it.) Anyhow, she was confused, started to cry asking me why I'm focusing on that again and that she thought we moved past that. I said, "I'm just trying to get to the truth and get the facts. To understand that if you said you were somewhere that you were in fact there." It escalated. I became enraged and started yelling and screaming that if she would have complied with what I asked over a month ago that we could be past this but as it is I still have to mine for the details and facts. She felt attacked and said it was emotional abuse. I said fine, let's just end the abusive relationship then.
> 
> I told her I was filing for divorce this week and that I'm tired of feeling this way and see no other way out of this. I feel like when I care for her and love her, then what she did to me during that time hurts me and maybe the only way out for me is to stop caring about her and for me to move on without her. Then I could stop wondering if my wife really loves me and who does she really want to be with, etc.
> 
> I doubt she believes I will. I've threatened it before during the last 6 weeks and then we "made up" and decided to continue trying. As you all know I have been reluctant to file and she knows this.
> 
> I believe she wants to save the marriage. I do. I believe she is trying, but it is somewhat on her terms. She has not provided a timeline and bucks when I ask for details like this am. I have a better timeline than she has because I worked at understanding it and documenting it. She says it's because I'm obsessed with it. Painful as it was and painful as the details are I did work at it. I am trying to understand it all. I go back and forth between emails between us and other events in our lives during those times. That's the really painful part and what hits home with who she became. Keeping me warm and in the dark and without sex and day dreaming of being with him. Meanwhile we're still going through the motions in our kid's lives and with our friends and family.
> 
> I want to forgive but I am really struggling with it. I am still hurting and in pain. Sometimes I think maybe I'm not being strong enough and I am focusing on me too much and my hurt versus us and our hurt and pain. She needs to heal from this too.
> 
> My priest gave a very appropriate sermon at church which felt was directed at me/us. She was in tears throughout this in mass. I know she is hurting too. It was essentially, "To be human is to keep score, to get hurt, to respond by hurting the other person back twice as bad and the cycle continues. To judge. To sit back and catch someone in a mistake or in a sin. To punish. To be Godlike is to see everything, to forgive it all, to change a little. To lead with love. To love people for who they are with all their faults" I have been trying to be more Godlike than human. Obviously it isn't working so well.
> 
> I pray often for the strength and grace from God to rise above this. To be able to love and forgive. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone and all that. Without turning this into a religious thing, I have prayed for some time to become closer to God, to help me see opportunities to be more Godlike. I sometimes think this is HIM answering my prayer and this is my test. I'm no holy roller but I have been trying hard.
> 
> Anyhow, I was feeling very down going to church and came out feeling really pretty good because of his sermon...until Sunday night and Monday am of course. Is this just self pity? Feeling sorry for myself?
> 
> Either way it sucks.
> 
> Last week Tuesday, she told me that he was in town and briefly stopped by her office to ask if her boss was around. She sits next to her boss. She said there was no other conversation and it was a 5 second fly by with no additional conversation. It was volunteered information from her that I did not know, but I still went nuts. She suspected that he might be in town that week and yet said nothing to me beforehand. I came home on Tuesday night and asked if she had seen him or how work went or something along those lines which is when she told me this. Eventually we got past it.
> 
> This weekend she tells me he will be in town for a program they are both involved with for work. It slipped her mind and she hasn't been thinking about it. It's from Tuesday pm thru Friday pm with dinners and other work sessions during the day. She told me she was not planning on going to the sessions that he would be at and would only attend those he wasn't. I immediately wanted to go balistic but held it together, barely. I basically said our marriage is on the line and you're talking about going to this thing that is really NOT mandatory where he may possibly be attending in certain functions and not others AND in a hotel for the week. Really? I said, you are leaving the company, why do you care? I said, if it were me I would back out of the program completely and give some BS reason that would be acceptable. Work is too busy. Personal reasons. Health reasons. Who gives a sh*t what you say or what anyone else thinks. It makes me wonder if she is testing the waters with me, but I don't know. Again she is volunteering this information and feels slightly attacked after doing so. I can't help it.
> 
> She accepted my suggestion and thanked me for talking to her about it rationally. She understands my POV, but it's very disappointing to me that she would not have backed out of this herself and let me know that instead of sorta asking for permission to go to parts of it. She's not really sure how I'm getting my information so may feeled compelled to tell me when he is in town. Don't really know, but I know it bugs her that I know things and she has no idea how. She would also have been unavailable during a good part of the day during the week and needed to tell me because of that.
> 
> Those two recent disclosures last week and this week I think have added to my outbursts this am. Other than that life has been pretty normal!
> 
> I will await the onslaught. (AND yes still reading the book NMMNG)


----------



## Road Scholar

Point taken. Need to work on my temper and communication style when angry. This is the first big blowup in many months.

BTW, she is working on the job situation and it is progressing. That has been her primary focus. It's a big job and she will know this week if she is in the final 2. It would be several weeks before she would start. 

There are other promising opportunities she is pursuing. 

OM is out of state but apparently in town often for work.

Maybe this M is already over and I'm just holding on to a dream.


----------



## walkonmars

Road Scholar said:


> My priest gave a very appropriate sermon at church ... To be Godlike is to see everything, to forgive it all, to change a little. To lead with love. To love people for who they are with all their faults" I have been trying to be more Godlike than human. Obviously it isn't working so well. ....


This is very admirable. And if fact, you want to do just that. But first you have to "see everything" in order to forgive it all. 

She is reluctant to let you see it all. She doesn't have faith in you and your capacity to forgive. Or she is so prideful that she is reluctant to expose ALL her misdeeds. 

You're doing fine. But please don't threaten to initiate D again unless you are prepared to do it.


----------



## Thorburn

Road, your wife is B-Sing you. I see it and others do as well. I went through this he*l for over a year. In April my wife came clean after I started the process for D, and I ws serious and done with the M. Christ intervened in a marvilous way and I am in R. My wife repented and came clean.

I don't know what will happen in your case, but she is pulling one over. My wife used the same things in 2012, that I was verbally abusive, and I was, but man she deserved it. But I had to get it under control. I did get out of control, but she continued to lie and never ended her A during this time.

I think your wife is playing you.


----------



## workindad

walkonmars said:


> You're doing fine. But please don't threaten to initiate D again unless you are prepared to do it.




The above is spot on. Do not make empty threats. You lose credibility when you do and you will be ignored.


----------



## Thor

Your wife is stalling. She is metering out some data which keeps you on the hook. Yet she is not tackling the really tough stuff like the timeline. For you the timeline is important, but to her it is scary and embarrassing. She is more concerned with soothing her feelings than making amends to you for what she did to hurt you.

So far her focus is still on herself rather than on you and the marriage.

Has she read any books on infidelity? I can't keep all the threads clear so I don't remember if you told us yet. How about MC? Has she gone with you to a good MC?


----------



## LongWalk

RS,

Most important of all at this point is self possession. Whether you D or R, treat this haze of uncertainty as a challenge. You are coaching your team. Half time has come that there is great deal left to do. You need to reassure yourself. Pretend you have to get a team going and you are leader.

By being calm and restrained you will be more likely to get the timeline from your wife. I say apologize to her for the angry outburst. Tell her you will not do it again. And as long as you are apologizing, apologize for your failures as husband. Do not make a single additional accusation against her. It is after all up to her to come clean.

And since you have threatened D, you must follow through. When you give her the papers you can say in all honesty that it was a very difficult decision. Tell her that as horrible as the affair itself was, the trickle truth was worse. She does not trust you with entire truth. Without the truth you can have no healthy marriage.

Tell your wife that your pursuit of the truth was actually a sign that you were fighting to save your marriage. Giving up that pursuit meant resignation. And so nothing was left but divorce. 

Every BS must struggle with complex and contradictory feelings. If a WS confessed to having anal sex with her AP, it might be crushing, but it might be possible to cope with such a horror by imagining that it had been a shıtty experience for them. More difficult is the sharing of marital secrets, running down the BS to the AP. But even this can be explained as the rationalization hamster in his stinking plastic and metal cage.

The lack of trust that is a tough one. She should just lay her fvcking soul open and trust you. That would be an act of love. That would impress you.

RS, you are having sex again. That was big issue. Are you having good sex? Is she letting go. Are you close to her? Does it feel real?


----------



## happyman64

RS



> Again wish I would have done 180 right after Dday 1 and 2. *Not sure but is it too late?*


Good question but it all depends on what you want to use the 180 for.

The 180 is a tool to allow you to detach from your wife and help you forge inner strength. It is so you can become a strong person that can deal with your personal issues.

It is not a tool to bring your wife to her knees begging for Reconciliation.

It is a tool to help you get your emotions under control and allow your mind to clear so you make a path to better your life.

The team is right you do need to get your emotions under control. How can she ever tell you more details of the affair or give you that timeline you want if you are going to keep exploding on her and threatening divorce every time you feel threatened by the OM and her contact with him.

And why do you keep asking to get hit by 2x4's from us??? Reconciliation is tough. Just getting to that point where you feel secure that you are heading in the right direction takes time.

IMO I do not think threatening divorce because she has not given you a timeline is a waste.

If she is actively looking at a new job, giving you more info then get your head and emotions under control. En courage her and work with her. You have gone this far haven't you??

Keep going forward.

HM


----------



## Will_Kane

Road Scholar said:


> I will await the onslaught. (AND yes still reading the book NMMNG)


Glad to see you still have your sense of humor.

I think eventually your marriage will survive and you will get where you want to go, but there IS an easier way to do it.


----------



## Will_Kane

Road Scholar said:


> "To be human is to keep score, to get hurt, to respond by hurting the other person back twice as bad and the cycle continues. To judge. To sit back and catch someone in a mistake or in a sin. To punish. *To be Godlike is to see everything, to forgive it all, to change a little. To lead with love. To love people for who they are with all their faults" I have been trying to be more Godlike than human*. Obviously it isn't working so well.
> 
> I will await the onslaught. (AND yes still reading the book NMMNG)


I am Catholic, too. I do my best. But when it comes to cheaters, this "turn the other cheek," "forgive and forget" stuff doesn't work AT THIS POINT. It will help you later, AFTER she decides to commit 100% to you.

She is conflicted. She still loves the other man. You might be number one right now - maybe, maybe not.

Try this to get some perspective:

1. Look at your wife and you from the outside, like you are reading another thread on here that is not yours. What do you see going on, with no pre-conceived notions.

2. Why is the cheating wife unwilling to give the timeline, give a full accounting of the affair - not every single small detail, but at least the big ones? Why is she still holding back?

The next thing I'm going to write might hurt quite a bit, except I don't think you really take anything I post very seriously anyway, so maybe not, but here goes:

1. Those carefree romantic dinners with the other man, drinking just enough to get pleasantly drunk, then the passionate nights spent making love to the other man, cuddling with other man afterward, telling each other how much they meant to each other, waking up in bed in his arms, having a quickie in the morning with him, sitting at the table having coffee, showering together, NO KIDS AROUND TO DISTURB THEM, their own special SECRET HAPPY time together, then back to the GRIND (YOU). Nothing you have done or are doing can hold a candle to this AT THE PRESENT TIME. She still is not removed from the other man. ANY CONTACT WITH OTHER MAN BRINGS BACK THESE PLEASANT EXCITING ROMANTIC MEMORIES, AND SETS THE RECONCILIATION CLOCK BACK.

2. She is telling you about some contact with other man, probably not all. Not likely they had a five-second exchange. Not likely she just wasn't thinking about it when planning to go to the non-mandatory hotel sessions where other man would be. She has been minimizing how often other man comes in from out of state. I think you have a good chance of reconciling, but it is by no means a done deal.

3. If she ever does get away from other man, have no contact with him, these feelings will fade and EVENTUALLY she will look back with bitter memories of how fake the whole affair was, how childish, how unrealistic, and realize that she only felt those things with other man because they BOTH were acting foolishly, and other man was a FOOL who can't hold a candle to a man like you.

4. Please, Please, PLEASE - don't pay any attention to her tears or her sobbing. She could be feeling sorry for herself, sorry for her kids, sorry for the other man - she certainly is NOT feeling sorry for you, because if she was, she would just tell you the truth. The sobbing, crying sincerity WHILE AVOIDING TELLING THE TRUTH is part of the script. If she was crying sobbing and seemed sincere AND she was telling you all of the dates and times so that it all ADDED UP and MADE SENSE to you, then you would know she truly was sincere. (IT'S THE ACTIONS, NOT THE WORDS).

Hang in, Road. Stop making empty threats. That's part of the reason why you're still at the point you are.

It's not too late to do the 180, detach, and make the truth a bigger issue. However, I would hold off on it for now. Leaving the job is HUGE, really it is the most important thing that has to occur for you to reconcile, so if she is within a couple of weeks until that happens, wait it out and keep working it as best you can.


----------



## bfree

RS, how do you know she is remorseful? She says to judge her on her actions. I agree. What actions has she taken to show you she is remorseful? She cries? She now allows you to have sex with her? What else? Tell me what does she do above and beyond what a good wife who hasn't cheated does already?

Why don't you want to divorce? What exactly about your current marriage is so great? I realize that I'm here and you're there but objectively speaking I don't see it. All I see is a woman that doesn't want to lose her quality of life but doesn't really care about you or what you need. I see a woman who is willing to throw you token sex and puts on a nice display of "fake tears" but when it comes to doing actual work or delving into actual truths she goes running for the hills. So, what is it you see that I don't?


----------



## Road Scholar

walkonmars said:


> This is very admirable. And if fact, you want to do just that. But first you have to "see everything" in order to forgive it all.
> 
> She is reluctant to let you see it all. She doesn't have faith in you and your capacity to forgive. Or she is so prideful that she is reluctant to expose ALL her misdeeds.
> 
> You're doing fine. But please don't threaten to initiate D again unless you are prepared to do it.


I appreciate the support.

I am trying to get at what I feel I need to understand about what took place. It's like pulling teeth. I have to tell her a date that I want information on and remain laser focused on getting it otherwise the discussion erodes into why do you need that, how is this going to make you feel better, focus on the positive, etc. As painful as it is I feel better when she gives up some information but wish it was volunteered. 

It is painful for her to reveal and I understand she is protecting herself and fearful of my reaction (which could be D or rage), which hasn't always been great and I am working on. She is prideful for sure but also realizes that this is her fault and she brought this on us.

This was my email to her 6 weeks ago. i just resent it earlier this week.

Do you recall this email sent on 9/24? It’s been 6 weeks and I have only what YOU have decided to provided to me. Not what I asked for. 



W,
I really hope you are having a good day and I certainly do not want to upset you at work or change that. BUT, if you cannot take a moment to read this, you may want to wait until you can leave for lunch because it may be upsetting to you.

I’m certainly not trying to keep this issue at the forefront of what we are finally trying to do after 5 mos. but I need to know the truth about what has happened over the last 7 mos. to a year. I know certain details but I don’t have a full or complete picture yet. I have snippets of texts and trips and that is all. Everything minimized and damage controlled. I need for you to want to tell me the truth and take that risk so we can build a better future on a solid foundation. One built on truth and trust and enough respect for me and for yourself to be honest. Then and I think only then can I honestly assess for myself what is best for me, best for us, and what I am capable of living with and/or able to reconcile and forgive. Isn’t that what you want too? I don’t want another 5 or 6 months to pass feeling unsafe and unsure. I want to be without resentment of the past mistakes we have made and create what we both want and have talked about using what we have learned from ourselves and our pasts out of this. I understand people make mistakes and I have made mine. It’s what we do after we realize it that matters. Until I know the truth this will linger on forever in my mind and I will never be able to get past it or move forward to any place good with you. There will always be doubt and unanswered questions. I know doing this be difficult for you and painful and require a leap of faith but I think it’s necessary to move forward together and for me to trust you again. If you cannot do this I understand but it’s what I need to move forward with you or without you. 

Here is what I need so that I can be fully informed of our situation and then be able to move ahead.

1) Timeline and details of the affair. From the beginning as friends to wherever and whenever it ended. I need to be able to discuss this.
2) How many times and how many places did you rendezvous? Where? I don’t need specifics of actions but I need to know the extent of it.
3) Gifts and articles of clothing purchased worn together or while with him. What else have you bought him?
4) Credit card statements. Full disclosure. Passwords. Transparency without me feeling like I am prying on my wife instead of protecting my family and my life from outside threats. That got me nowhere in 5 months – playing dumb and looking the other way while my gut told me otherwise.
5) I simply cannot agree with you both continuing to work for the same company. I can no longer blindly trust that the affair won’t continue at some point down the road. Clearly, you both have ample opportunity to restart it at any point without anyone ever knowing. I cannot turn a blind eye to that possibility again and attempt to reconcile again knowing the possibility still exists. The temptation is just too great. At some point soon for us to reconcile, you will need to leave. Or he does. I cannot control him leaving without risking damage to you or your reputation. You know that’s not what I want or it would have been done already. I understand your concern/hesitancy over not leaving until you have a job, but frankly don’t really care about the $ - and never have. We will be fine and can tap into our 401K if needed to stay afloat as well as the home equity line. That would be a huge sign we are in this together and are relying on each other to get through it. But as you said this am, you have your doubts still so I don’t expect that. My unwavering commitment to continue helping out with your Dad’s financial situation throughout all this should have demonstrated many many things to you (clearly meant nothing to you like my letters, cards, emails, texts, actions, pain, regret, remorse, love, extra effort to please you) but if nothing else, it should have demonstrated that I am not especially concerned with my financial well being or out to destroy anyone in this process. That said, I would not feel the slightest bit of remorse about exposing OM for who and what he is. 

Basically, I think you need to think about what’s really important to you individually? To the life you want? To our life together? You need to ask yourself if you’re willing to do what it takes by letting your actions demonstrate it. I cannot trust that what you tell me is truthful so to rebuild that trust I will need to see what you really want through your actions. Yes it’s a risk. I get it. You need to figure out if it’s one worth taking it. 

You have risked much for him more than once, what are you willing to risk for me or our family? I think it’s a fair question to ask yourself.


----------



## harrybrown

Road Scholar said:


> OM is out of state but apparently in town often for work.
> 
> Maybe this M is already over and I'm just holding on to a dream.


You are holding on to the dream of who you thought your wife was, and she is not the person you dreamed about when you married her.

She has treated you horribly even after being caught. What part of NC does she not understand.

She is not giving you the timeline, because she is protecting the OM and she loves him more than you. She could not give you sex, because she would be cheating on him, not you. 

She has taken this further underground. How can you heal and go on without the truth? There is no way. 

When you do man up and file for divorce and not let her treat you this way anymore, you may finally get the truth, one way or another. 

If she will not then give you the truth when you are filing, you know that she loves the POSOM more than you. 

How can you let her keep you as her backup plan? You are too good to be someone's backup plan. Find someone new that really loves you and not someone else.

Ask her if she ever loved you as much as she did the POSOM.


----------



## Road Scholar

bfree said:


> RS, how do you know she is remorseful? She says to judge her on her actions. I agree. What actions has she taken to show you she is remorseful? She cries? She now allows you to have sex with her? What else? Tell me what does she do above and beyond what a good wife who hasn't cheated does already?
> 
> Why don't you want to divorce? What exactly about your current marriage is so great? I realize that I'm here and you're there but objectively speaking I don't see it. All I see is a woman that doesn't want to lose her quality of life but doesn't really care about you or what you need. I see a woman who is willing to throw you token sex and puts on a nice display of "fake tears" but when it comes to doing actual work or delving into actual truths she goes running for the hills. So, what is it you see that I don't?



I don't want to divorce because I don't feel most people end up happier. I feel D complicates everyones lives involved for the rest of their lives. I feel it passes our mistakes onto our children forever. Essentially I feel this is salvageable but will require much blood, sweat and tears on both sides to get there and the odds are stacked against us, which I also realize. 

We have two small children we both love very much. We have 14 years invested in our marriage and 20 years to our relationship. I still love her and I feel she still loves me. I feel she lost here way and was sucked into something she now regrets. She let it happen. She chose it. She accepts responsibility for this and is trying to reconcile with me finally after 7 months. She is struggling with disclosure of details and while I may be wrong I am trying to work with her on this while getting bits and pieces of information over time. She is making strides on leaving the company and this week backed out of this volunteer program she was selected for. It's like a fast track mentoring program but may have put the two of them together at some point in various working sessions. 

I feel I am begining to see her actions back up her words that she wants us to reconcile and be happy and be together. Yes, the details are slow to come and I will continue to mine for the truth. 

I have to believe even if someone is remorseful for what they have done, they can also be embarrassed and humiliated and ashamed for what they've done and not want to reveal it fearing the repercussions. I also feel she is trying to protect me and even us from some of the details. Not that it's right or justified.


----------



## bfree

Road Scholar said:


> I don't want to divorce because I don't feel most people end up happier. I feel D complicates everyones lives involved for the rest of their lives. I feel it passes our mistakes onto our children forever. Essentially I feel this is salvageable but will require much blood, sweat and tears on both sides to get there and the odds are stacked against us, which I also realize.
> 
> We have two small children we both love very much. We have 14 years invested in our marriage and 20 years to our relationship. I still love her and I feel she still loves me. I feel she lost here way and was sucked into something she now regrets. She let it happen. She chose it. She accepts responsibility for this and is trying to reconcile with me finally after 7 months. She is struggling with disclosure of details and while I may be wrong I am trying to work with her on this while getting bits and pieces of information over time. She is making strides on leaving the company and this week backed out of this volunteer program she was selected for. It's like a fast track mentoring program but may have put the two of them together at some point in various working sessions.
> 
> I feel *I am begining to see her actions back up her words* that she wants us to reconcile and be happy and be together. Yes, the details are slow to come and I will continue to mine for the truth.
> 
> I have to believe even if someone is remorseful for what they have done, they can also be embarrassed and humiliated and ashamed for what they've done and not want to reveal it fearing the repercussions. I also feel she is trying to protect me and even us from some of the details. Not that it's right or justified.


What actions?

I'm only trying to get you to examine things in a more objective manner. YOU want to reconcile. YOU don't want a divorce. But YOU are not the only person in this marriage. SHE needs to fix what SHE has broken. Playing the part of the "good wife" for a while is just putting a bandaid on a severed limb. So other than token sex and some tears what actions has she taken? Try seeing this from the outside. If you were looking at this from outside your marriage what would you see?


----------



## Want2babettrme

Road Scholar said:


> I appreciate the support.
> 
> I am trying to get at what I feel I need to understand about what took place. It's like pulling teeth. I have to tell her a date that I want information on and remain laser focused on getting it otherwise the discussion erodes into why do you need that, how is this going to make you feel better, focus on the positive, etc. As painful as it is I feel better when she gives up some information but wish it was volunteered.
> 
> It is painful for her to reveal and I understand she is protecting herself and fearful of my reaction (which could be D or rage), which hasn't always been great and I am working on. She is prideful for sure but also realizes that this is her fault and she brought this on us.
> 
> This was my email to her 6 weeks ago. i just resent it earlier this week.
> 
> Do you recall this email sent on 9/24? It’s been 6 weeks and I have only what YOU have decided to provided to me. Not what I asked for.
> 
> 
> 
> W,
> I really hope you are having a good day and I certainly do not want to upset you at work or change that. BUT, if you cannot take a moment to read this, you may want to wait until you can leave for lunch because it may be upsetting to you.
> 
> I’m certainly not trying to keep this issue at the forefront of what we are finally trying to do after 5 mos. but I need to know the truth about what has happened over the last 7 mos. to a year. I know certain details but I don’t have a full or complete picture yet. I have snippets of texts and trips and that is all. Everything minimized and damage controlled. I need for you to want to tell me the truth and take that risk so we can build a better future on a solid foundation. One built on truth and trust and enough respect for me and for yourself to be honest. Then and I think only then can I honestly assess for myself what is best for me, best for us, and what I am capable of living with and/or able to reconcile and forgive. Isn’t that what you want too? I don’t want another 5 or 6 months to pass feeling unsafe and unsure. I want to be without resentment of the past mistakes we have made and create what we both want and have talked about using what we have learned from ourselves and our pasts out of this. I understand people make mistakes and I have made mine. It’s what we do after we realize it that matters. Until I know the truth this will linger on forever in my mind and I will never be able to get past it or move forward to any place good with you. There will always be doubt and unanswered questions. I know doing this be difficult for you and painful and require a leap of faith but I think it’s necessary to move forward together and for me to trust you again. If you cannot do this I understand but it’s what I need to move forward with you or without you.
> 
> Here is what I need so that I can be fully informed of our situation and then be able to move ahead.
> 
> 1) Timeline and details of the affair. From the beginning as friends to wherever and whenever it ended. I need to be able to discuss this.
> 2) How many times and how many places did you rendezvous? Where? I don’t need specifics of actions but I need to know the extent of it.
> 3) Gifts and articles of clothing purchased worn together or while with him. What else have you bought him?
> 4) Credit card statements. Full disclosure. Passwords. Transparency without me feeling like I am prying on my wife instead of protecting my family and my life from outside threats. That got me nowhere in 5 months – playing dumb and looking the other way while my gut told me otherwise.
> 5) I simply cannot agree with you both continuing to work for the same company. I can no longer blindly trust that the affair won’t continue at some point down the road. Clearly, you both have ample opportunity to restart it at any point without anyone ever knowing. I cannot turn a blind eye to that possibility again and attempt to reconcile again knowing the possibility still exists. The temptation is just too great. At some point soon for us to reconcile, you will need to leave. Or he does. I cannot control him leaving without risking damage to you or your reputation. You know that’s not what I want or it would have been done already. I understand your concern/hesitancy over not leaving until you have a job, but frankly don’t really care about the $ - and never have. We will be fine and can tap into our 401K if needed to stay afloat as well as the home equity line. That would be a huge sign we are in this together and are relying on each other to get through it. But as you said this am, you have your doubts still so I don’t expect that. My unwavering commitment to continue helping out with your Dad’s financial situation throughout all this should have demonstrated many many things to you (clearly meant nothing to you like my letters, cards, emails, texts, actions, pain, regret, remorse, love, extra effort to please you) but if nothing else, it should have demonstrated that I am not especially concerned with my financial well being or out to destroy anyone in this process. That said, I would not feel the slightest bit of remorse about exposing OM for who and what he is.
> 
> Basically, I think you need to think about what’s really important to you individually? To the life you want? To our life together? You need to ask yourself if you’re willing to do what it takes by letting your actions demonstrate it. I cannot trust that what you tell me is truthful so to rebuild that trust I will need to see what you really want through your actions. Yes it’s a risk. I get it. You need to figure out if it’s one worth taking it.
> 
> You have risked much for him more than once, what are you willing to risk for me or our family? I think it’s a fair question to ask yourself.


RS,

I'm sorry to have to tell you this but she's thinking of herself first. OM is still probably second if not first since she still works at the same place as he does. Unfortunately, in her mind you are still low on her list of priorities. Change that. 

File for the divorce and have her served. Consider serving her at work to drive the point home. Tell her to move out. Then let her know you will only consider stopping the divorce only if she willingly and without prodding complies with all your demands. Take her out of the driver's seat and make yourself driver of this bus. Let her know you understand that talking about her A is difficult for her, but she chose to have the A, and she's got to live with the consequences.


----------



## harrybrown

You are putting alot of effort into this marriage.

You sent her an email with heart and feeling.

So how did she respond? and how quickly did she respond?

Where is this marriage in her priority? and she is still in contact with her AP!


----------



## LongWalk

Shaggy has gone but we still have Will. 

re: HB's excellent question:


> Ask her if she ever loved you as much as she did the POSOM.


It is a great question, but I would think deeply before asking it, for the goal is to erase POSOM from the category of positive memories. If there is a to be a successful reconciliation, it is much better to hear her come forth on her own and state that she loves you more.

She is going through a process. Certain aspects of an affair, the sex, the excitement, the emotional lift may be destroyed by the new reality that her marriage may be terminated. It won't necessarily happen overnight.

RS,

Pardon me for being stubborn but I must repeat my question: Is the sex you're having good? IMO, hysterical bonding, although it sometimes floats reconciliation attempts that are doomed, is still a sign of something. Are you fvcking her brains out? Is she into you or is it just high quality duty sex?

One suggestion: do not tell her you love her. Especially not when your having sex or afterwards, for if you do it sends the signal that she is forgiven and that the rug sweeping is ok.

Your letter was good but too long, too nice. You need to write a really short note in your own words of course, but here a suggestion. Hope you can make even shorter and hard hitting:

WW,

You say you love me and you don't want to hurt me by telling me the truth about what happened. I'll be the judge of what I should and shouldn't know. I am not going to live with puzzle that stops me from enjoying Sunday afternoons.

I am ready to hear you come clean. 

BH


----------



## harrybrown

You are putting alot of effort into this marriage.

You sent her an email with heart and feeling.

So how did she respond? and how quickly did she respond?

Where is this marriage in her priority? and she is still in contact with her AP!


----------



## hopefulgirl

We're 8 months from D-Day, in MC, and have a counselor with a lot of experience helping couples dealing with infidelity. Our counselor goes along with Shirley Glass' philosophy, which is that the betrayed partner is dealing with both trauma and grief.

A pertinent passage from her book from NOT Just Friends:

"It is a challenge to construct a disclosure process that unfolds rather than explodes. Traumatic reactions will make it hard for the injured partner to act rationally and with self-control. Fear of consequences will make it hard for the involved partner to be open."

Among the first steps of trauma recovery, according to Glass, is establishing safety. And that's the focus of our MC right now. We've BARELY touched on timeline or any other questions of mine about the A. We're working on repairing the couple, promoting goodwill, and practicing more "compassionate communication." This is the foundation for what Glass calls "the hard work ahead." 

It is ESSENTIAL to get my questions answered, and that was clearly established at the outset of counseling. But it doesn't have to be RIGHT NOW. I tried getting answers from my WS in the early weeks after D-Day (on my own, before getting into MC), and it was mostly disastrous. A couple calm discussions, but a lot that really "exploded." 

And yes, I agree with you that "if someone is remorseful for what they have done, they can also be embarrassed and humiliated and ashamed for what they've done and not want to reveal it fearing the repercussions." And mixed in with the self-protection, I believe it is possible, even for selfish cheaters, to have a genuine desire in their hearts to protect their spouses from some of the hurtful details - some cheaters DO have enough empathy to care about what the telling will feel like to us. 

Since it's a D-Day #2 situation, it wouldn't be a bad idea to consult an attorney just to have some info (and maybe clear the fog a tad faster), but having been raised Catholic, I understand the belief that divorce should whenever possible be a last resort, especially when there are children. But her not being able to calmly report all the facts to you a few months after D-Day #1 and a few weeks after D-Day #2 is no big surprise.

My husband and I are learning to communicate in a way that we couldn't before all this happened. When we "break the rules" for a moment or two (we're not supposed to talk about the A between counseling sessions), it's so much easier and calmer now.


----------



## Road Scholar

harrybrown said:


> You are putting alot of effort into this marriage.
> 
> You sent her an email with heart and feeling.
> 
> So how did she respond? and how quickly did she respond?
> 
> Where is this marriage in her priority? and she is still in contact with her AP!


She's never been big on emails back to me truthfully. I have poured my heart into them many times over the past few months, and texts, etc. Very short replies typically. I feel I express myself better in writing and its therapeutic for me to a degree. I think she prefers in person communication.

She says the marriage is a priority and is begging nearly every day for another chance. Said today even when things are good between us I show you how distraught I am about what I did to you. This is true and why I feel she is remorseful. Yet I still struggle. 

I think she would have a hard time accepting full responsibility for a D if it were to go that way. I think it might be rationalized to we had a bad marriage, we didn't treat each other right, or with respect, all the stuff we definitely needed to work on but not the ultimate reason for where we are at today.


----------



## walkonmars

She's not going to find a new job is she? 

She''s not going to tell you everything is she?

If the OM had sent her texts or emails would he have received brief terse replies?


----------



## Road Scholar

I think its probably time we get back into MC. 

I feel a little burned out after the first 5 month attempt. It was a waste and the counselor should have KNOWN what the F was going on. 

If she didn't she is a bigger dumb a$$ than I was. It should have been obvious to me but it wasn't. It should have been obvious to her and I feel it was her obligation to clue me in rather than continue to let the knife twist.


----------



## Thor

Road, that email was excellent imho. You explained clearly what you need and why you need it. You explain you want to repair and improve the marriage.

And yet she does not respond. She, as far as you have reported, has not explained why she isn't answering your questions. She isn't asking for some kind of arrangement where she feels safe(r) answering your questions.

In short, she stonewalls you.

In my opinion you should not give her any further chances without consequences. The reason? I think she does not believe you are capable of divorcing her. Not only did she continue the affair during the 5 months after DD1, she now is working a strategy of obscuration and delay.

I'm sorry it is going like this. I bet you are seeing glimpses of the wonderful woman you married, and you are hoping for a lot of reasons she gets her act together. But I think she is not that same person she used to be. She needs more motivation than you have applied so far.

To save your marriage, you have to be ready to end it. For real.


----------



## Will_Kane

Road Scholar said:


> This was my email to her 6 weeks ago. i just resent it earlier this week.
> 
> _Do you recall this email sent on 9/24? It’s been 6 weeks and I have only what YOU have decided to provided to me. Not what I asked for. _
> 
> ...
> 
> You have risked much for him more than once, what are you willing to risk for me or our family? I think it’s a fair question to ask yourself.


*I would be interested in her response to you re-sending the email.*

As far as the contents of the email go, in the beginning, you come off sounding deferential, not wanting to upset her. Eventually you get to the point, but in my opinion you are very nice about it. 

I understand it is your marriage and your life and you have to do it your way - you and your children have to live with the result, not us. However, I would like to point out that, by being "nice" (as you seem to be - that was very mild language and tone for someone who just was completely deceived and made a fool of for five months), you also could lose the marriage BECAUSE you were too nice. Being a doormat is not an attractive quality. I don't think you are a doormat, but it is not my perception that counts.

You are choosing the more patient, less demanding path to reconciliation rather than the less patient, more demanding path. No one can be sure what is the best path for you, but based on past threads and personal experience, the odds favor the less patient, more demanding path.

What you might perceive as "being nice," she might perceive as "being weak," even if on a subconscious level.

When a wife has cheated as bad as your wife has - by which I mean especially the five months between D-day 1 and D-day 2, and just the fact that there was a D-day 2 - if she truly is remorseful, she will do ANYTHING within reason to save the marriage. 

Surely coming clean with dates, times, and places is within reason. When I consider that, I get a bad feeling about whether or not she still has you fooled and is not carrying on this affair. It died a little too neatly and cleanly after D-day 2, after having not died at all after D-day 1.

Let's just see what happens with leaving the job over the next 2-3 weeks. If she leaves, that will be huge. If not, it's anybody's guess as to what is really going on.


----------



## walkonmars

It's not beyond reason that the POSOM has told her to cool her heels for a while and try to work it out with you but he'll be in the background 'just in case'.

As Will expressed in his well-thought out post; the proof will be in the pudding if she actually leaves her job. My guess is that in a few weeks she'll try to convince you that there are legitimate reasons for her to keep her job. Expect it and decide what your reaction should be.


----------



## dogman

She won't leave her job because she anticipates the end of the marriage and wants the job for her independance. She is riding this out to see if it works. If not, she has a plan...trust me...she has a plan.


----------



## Wazza

RS, I know you want to be married, and I know you love her. But the single most important think to learn from all this is that it takes two to build a marriage but only one to destroy it.

I am 23 years out from my wife's affair, reconciled, yet the lies she told, the facts I never got, still eat me. I think it always will.

You have the chance to avoid that now, but at some point it will be too late. The longer you leave it, the harder it is to get the truth.

If I were in your shoes, I would change the discussion from "we are together but I need you to tell me..." to "we are now apart and will not be together again until.....". At the moment she has an incentive to minimise, because the full story might scare you off. Realising that not telling the full story might be what loses you changes what she thinks.

Let's be honest. How do you know she is not still seeing him, just hiding it better? I am not trying to feed paranoia here. Any human being in your shoes would ask that question.


----------



## turnera

Road Scholar said:


> She says the marriage is a priority and is begging nearly every day for another chance. Said today even when things are good between us I show you how distraught I am about what I did to you. This is true and why I feel she is remorseful. Yet I still struggle.


Words are cheap. Words are easy. ACTIONS are the only thing that can show she is sincere.


----------



## terrence4159

this thread is like a 80's horror movie. we all know the killer is in the basement we call and tell road the killer is in the basement but he still runs into the basement. 

i wish you luck road i really do but im tired of beating a dead horse im taking my stick and leaving


----------



## Wazza

terrence4159 said:


> this thread is like a 80's horror movie. we all know the killer is in the basement we call and tell road the killer is in the basement but he still runs into the basement.
> 
> i wish you luck road i really do but im tired of beating a dead horse im taking my stick and leaving


To me it's more a risk than a certainty.

Arguing the other side, I stayed for the kids and we rebuilt and I never got full truth. It hurts, but would we have stayed together if I had pushed it? Would I have been better off?

But there were a few lean years there. And it may be just luck that I turned out ok.


----------



## LongWalk

Stop having sex with her... is she giving you 100% in bed, and I mean 100%... and firmly request the timeline. Give her a form that you have written up. Tell her to fill it in leaving out nothing. She should give detail about her decisions to have sex. What was going through her mind?

The emotional journey she has gone on. She and you both need to see it. Remember how smart you are. Read the name of your own thread: No sex in reconciliation. Without that it was not reconciliation. Now you need 100% remorse. That will lead to 100% passion.

You need to exhibit alpha certainity, calm and resolve. You desire for the truth and remorse are not neediness or weakness. It is the psychological basis for an honest foundation in your relationship. She must surrender her pride.

Infidelity is not a crime in a court of law. The state has given up trying regulate this activity because it is to complicated and too intimate. However, it were a crime, your wife would not be allowed to tell the judge that the dog ate her homework so she had to cheat but now she knows it was wrong.

She did not cheat because the dog ate her homework. She cheated for other reasons. Her homework is write the timeline.

There is no guarantee that reconciliation will work, but if you are going to do it, do it right.


----------



## davecarter

Road Scholar said:


> The advise on this site has been right on. I probably should have been on here 5 months ago instead of accepting her back and trying to forgive and reconcile from day 1. I was trying to be strong for my family and kids and take the pain on myself. I understand that was a bad move. It was not enough of a wake up call for her. She has still been in contact with him.
> 
> Text from tonight: "Grey goose and soda. Alone at bar. Wish u were here."
> 
> I could seriously wreak havoc on them both at work tomorrow. I'm so pissed right now. Can't believe she is blowing apart our family and will destroy our kids souls. I'm sure there is more pain and hurt ahead I guess I am just sorta numb right now.
> 
> Really thought we were trying to reconcile and rebuild. I planned a 14 year anniversary get away this weekend - cost a G - and tonight she is sending text messages to him wishing he was there.
> 
> I guess good guys do finish last. Really wanted to work this **** out but I had a hard enough time trusting her the first time. I don't believe I can EVER trust her after this. The last 5 months I have been in much pain fighting through this trying to be strong for my family and trying to give the benefit of the doubt and let her feelings come around. So so stupid. Catholic upbringing/training hasn't helped me with this.


FFS, and I thought _I_ was a doormat. :scratchhead:


----------



## warlock07

Road Scholar said:


> She's never been big on emails back to me truthfully.


Luckily i did not read most of his latest post. 

I've read posts where the BS reconciled inspite of incredible betrayals(Mathias or DD) but this does not sound like an R in anyway. I hope I am wrong for RS's sake. But he has an excuse for everything his wife won't do.

"She was ashamed"

"She was never a email person".

"She does not want to hurt me"

"She has lot of guilt"

FFS, she could not even tell him the truth about the last 5 months...and he actually believes that she forgot about them.


----------



## jack.c

davecarter said:


> FFS, and I thought _I_ was a doormat. :scratchhead:



doormant is the less thing he is....
Keeping up with this shxt is way more worse!


----------



## davecarter

jack.c said:


> doormant is the less thing he is....
> Keeping up with this shxt is way more worse!


This is why, have you noticed in pretty much all CWI threads, the OM gets away scott-free...because the BS almost never confronts or does anything to stop them.
How often have we seen the OM crash-n-burn as a result of ACTION from the BS?? :scratchhead:

One poster said something like _"the bad guy wins 80% of the time_" or something like that...



Road Scholar said:


> I guess good guys do finish last. Really wanted to work this **** out but I had a hard enough time trusting her the first time. I don't believe I can EVER trust her after this. The last 5 months I have been in much pain fighting through this trying to be strong for my family and trying to give the benefit of the doubt and let her feelings come around. So so stupid. Catholic upbringing/training hasn't helped me with this.


The OM doens't think about stuff like 'trust' or 'benefits-of-the-doubt' or 'feelings'.
He does what wants to do.
And thats why women gravitate toward him...


----------



## LongWalk

Also, worth noting: many WAW never return. So RS is ahead of many in this respect.


----------



## Thor

warlock07 said:


> this does not sound like an R in anyway. I hope I am wrong for RS's sake. But he has an excuse for everything his wife won't do.
> 
> "She was ashamed"
> 
> "She was never a email person".
> 
> "She does not want to hurt me"
> 
> "She has lot of guilt"
> 
> FFS, she could not even tell him the truth about the last 5 months...and he actually believes that she forgot about them.


I want to weigh in on this, because I too have done those things. What it shows is that RS is a caring thinking person. He thinks about the consequences of possible courses of action. He genuinely cares for his wife. Still, even after what she did, he is able to see the good person he married. He values his family, and he values marriage.

All good stuff.

The bad part? He is putting his own needs at the very bottom of the list. Which is in fact harmful to his kids, as they are seeing everything and learning bad lessons (which they will repeat as adults). And it is bad for his wife because she is not living an authentic life herself. She either should live in a great marriage with him or she should be given freedom to live the life she wants without this marriage.

In short, *fear* is keeping RS stalled.

RS, the turmoil you feel is due to a conflict between what you allow yourself to believe and what your gut knows is reality. If you truly believed your marriage and family were primary needs for you, and your other needs (trust, sex, emotional intimacy, etc) were much lower in priority, you would not feel the turmoil.

I went many years without sex in my marriage, and while it was not fun it was _acceptable_ in trade for other things I held more important. In my case it was some significant issues with my daughters in their teens. Being here was more important to me than getting sex from my wife. I learned to live with the situation.

You know the truth in your gut that your wife is not who she used to be. You know in your gut she is putting you low on her list. You know she is stalling for time. You know she is hedging her bets in case things don't work out. You know you were barely a thought in her mind when she was in the affair. You know she is capable of terrible deceit.

Yet you try to rationalize with her via that email. The email was fine. It clearly communicated your position. It was a carrot. Now you need the stick. But you are afraid of the stick because you fear the potential outcome may not be what you prefer.

It is time for you to make a selfish decision and a strong self-serving stand. It is time for you to understand it is ultimately the _best_ for your kids even if it is not a utopian outcome.


----------



## donkler

Dont know who wrote this but I kept during my co-dependence recovery.

You continue going back because you get knocked off your path when you let one of your needy, dependent moods take over your life. Your Higher Self is no longer in charge. Your mood is! (Oh no!) 

Then, feeling lonley, you're no longer sure about what the "right" thing to do is. You flee the pain of being alone by closing your eyes to what is, remembering the few good times, forgetting the bad. You hope that maybe this time it will be better. And any resolve you had to stay away is lost. You are stuck in a wishful thinking cycle. You deny reality because reality hurts. Yet, pain is a part of life and helps us grow. This is a very common problem! 

When your very normal and very Human dependency needs kick in, you buy into them and let yourself stray from your intended path. He may give you j u s t e n o u g h to keep you hanging in, maybe enough to get you to question your decision to leave. You've seen the same thing happen over and over, yet you give in to the needy stuff. 

You are the only one in control of your life. Unless you want to find yourself in the same boat five years from now, I suggest you set yourself a direction that makes you proud. Then follow that path, no matter what! You can count on your needy voices (the dependency stuff) to try to knock you off your path. Do not let this happen! Put your goals down on paper. Look at them when in doubt! You may need help doing this. Read Read Read! Post on the CatBox! Join a support group! Learn mindfulness skills! Get a therapist! 

You can't contol him, but you can control you. When you really get it and fully accept that the situation is what it is, you will understand that denying reality with wishful thinking only hurts you. Making the goal-driven choice to take the plunge gets a little bit easier. 

Think about all this. All the wishing and hoping in the world won't change reality. Set your plan and follow through, especially through the tough times. Persevere, persevere, persevere. And when you mess up, and you will, love yourself for being Human, pick yourself back up and get back to the plan.


----------



## Road Scholar

Thor said:


> I want to weigh in on this, because I too have done those things. What it shows is that RS is a caring thinking person. He thinks about the consequences of possible courses of action. He genuinely cares for his wife. Still, even after what she did, he is able to see the good person he married. He values his family, and he values marriage.
> 
> All good stuff.
> 
> The bad part? He is putting his own needs at the very bottom of the list. Which is in fact harmful to his kids, as they are seeing everything and learning bad lessons (which they will repeat as adults). And it is bad for his wife because she is not living an authentic life herself. She either should live in a great marriage with him or she should be given freedom to live the life she wants without this marriage.
> 
> In short, *fear* is keeping RS stalled.
> 
> RS, the turmoil you feel is due to a conflict between what you allow yourself to believe and what your gut knows is reality. If you truly believed your marriage and family were primary needs for you, and your other needs (trust, sex, emotional intimacy, etc) were much lower in priority, you would not feel the turmoil.
> 
> I went many years without sex in my marriage, and while it was not fun it was _acceptable_ in trade for other things I held more important. In my case it was some significant issues with my daughters in their teens. Being here was more important to me than getting sex from my wife. I learned to live with the situation.
> 
> You know the truth in your gut that your wife is not who she used to be. You know in your gut she is putting you low on her list. You know she is stalling for time. You know she is hedging her bets in case things don't work out. You know you were barely a thought in her mind when she was in the affair. You know she is capable of terrible deceit.
> 
> Yet you try to rationalize with her via that email. The email was fine. It clearly communicated your position. It was a carrot. Now you need the stick. But you are afraid of the stick because you fear the potential outcome may not be what you prefer.
> 
> It is time for you to make a selfish decision and a strong self-serving stand. It is time for you to understand it is ultimately the _best_ for your kids even if it is not a utopian outcome.



I appreciate all that have posted here and all that have followed my story. I know it's been frustrating for some of you. This is a great post.

Part of why I stayed away for a couple weeks was because I usually have left this site feeling worse than when I visited it. I don't mean that to be a negative comment to anyone that posts here or to be a critical comment on any of the post because I feel they all can provide some value and insight to my situation. I have learned a great deal here. All your insight helps me question what I am doing and whether I am making mistakes or not. It's hard to know to be honest and the outside perspective with people knowledgeable about this sort of thing is valuable. 

After a pretty tough talk last night with the W on not providing me with information and details. I actually felt pretty good last night and this am. Morning sex is always good. Not crazy but good. BTW, the sex has been pretty good. Probably not affair sex, but good.

Usually after I get serious and we talk about the situation I end up feeling better. She doesn't necessarily provide the details or facts I want but she provides reassurance that she loves me, that she regrets all that has happened, that she will forever regret what she did and how badly she hurt me, that she doesn't want to lose me or our family. To give her one more chance to prove based on her actions that she loves me. To continue giving her this gift to let her prove to me that she can make me happy, that we can be happy together. To give it time. She realizes that D is a very real possibility whether she thinks I will or not, she realizes even I have a breaking point and I am at it. She knows I don't want to but that I am there and giving it consideration. It's real. I have a lot to forgive. It's a lot to get past. She told me she would be devastated. That I would trade our problems for another set of problems. Stuff i told her during the 5 months really. She is trying to convince me to stay and to continue to fight for us.

Earlier in the week she provided parking receipts for trips out of town that I asked for. It confirms she went on the trips but doesn't confirm whether he was with her or not. She told me place they went for lunch, dinner on various dates. Again she tells me that I know "everything". I don't know everything. We haven't talked about every single date and what occurred where they went, what they did. WTF is knowing everything anyhow?? I know they had sex. I know she thought she loved him and told him so. I know she lied, cheated, betrayed me and our kids to be with him and when she got busted once, she did it again. I know it lasted 2 months plus 5 months plus months leading up to it. All in, better part of a year. I don't know that I care about many other details but I want her to come clean on her own without me have to follow up on specific questions I have asked because it's always a day later or not at all if I don't press.

Still as someone said, she hasn't left. She is here with me and wants to stay based on what she si saying. She is asking for forgiveness and another chance. She hasn't left and claims to be where she wants to be. I am not fighting for her to break from the fog. She seems to be out of it, at least mostly. She realizes at least to some extent the damage she has done. Of course she has a backup plan. She's not stupid. She is being practical - at least for now. She realizes she will need an income if we D. I don't think that is a bad thing. I have been thinking about my back up plan as well if things don't work out as intended. I don't know that that says anything about what she wants or her intentions or mine. We have responsibility. We have bills and are adults.

Marriage and my family in tact are important to me so are all the other things. (sex, intimacy, truthfullness, trust, love, etc.) At this point she is telling me that she wants those things and is willing to do what it takes have them in our marriage. 

I don't know if we will get there or be able to reconcile but I am willing to try. I plan to continue pushing for disclosure along the way.

I told her I going to spend some time with my Mom this weekend for her birthday and allow myself time to think. I told her I was going to take her to a spa. She called the spa this am set everything up for both of us on Saturday and sent me an email - her treat.

1:30 80 minute signature massage for RS
1:30 Signature pedicure for Mom
2:30 Color for Mom
3:45 Haircut for Mom

Hi- I just sent you a couple of emails from my hotmail accounts with your details . I am jealous but no two people deserve a day of pampering more than you and your mom. I love you both very much.

I'm curious as to what everyone's read is on this. It tells me she is trying and trying to be thoughtful and demonstrate this through actions.

Your thoughts? Many thanks to you ALL!! R.S.


----------



## WyshIknew

My thoughts?

This is just stuff my wife and I do for each other anyway. You do it because you love your spouse.

You don't do it because you effed some dude or woman.


----------



## walkonmars

It's was a very sweet, endearing, and generous gesture on her part.

You seem to have analyzed your marriage over the past year or so in a very objective way. 

The pull of the POSOM will always be potentially there won't it? How long are you willing to let him be a safety valve for her? I understand that it can happen even if they're not working for the same org or that she could find someone else. But why give her a potential head start? 

Who's to say that 8 months from now you pizz her off with some comment and she calls him or runs into him at a meeting? But more than that, it's a consequence of her actions with this POS that she gets another job. She should be scouring the placement services with her CV. 

On the bright side, she IS giving you pieces of what you want. I doubt she will be forthcoming on her own - I'm sure it's demeaning for her - but another consequence. She's lucky you haven't dropped her. 

Work on yourself. Be the man you want to be. Live the life you want - she can be part of that life but doesn't need to be. Accept that as a fact.


----------



## davecarter

:slap:


----------



## LongWalk

Even on TAM there is a lot of debate about knowing details. Weightlifter, who is into audio tape analysis, advises BS not to listen to VAR tapes of sex because they are too painful. If that is true, then knowing more about the sex that they had may not be healthy for reconciliation.

I apologize for harrassing you about the quality of your current sex life, but your answer shows that it is a relevant question. Moreover, it has been a key question: clearly your wife is aware of it. She is trying to address the problem. Living with the idea that she had much better sex with him is deeply unpleasant.

I don't think you can simply forget or undo this. There are two cures:

1) You up the ante. You 180 and file for divorce, you make your wife so miserable that she begins to actually have a different memory of the sex she had with him. Whenever something really terrible happens, we always examine the circumstances and recriminate ourselves.

If someone forgets to pick up milk on the way home, then gets in a car accident while making an additional trip to buy some, there is a possibility of enormous regret even if the accident itself was not their fault. In the case of an affair the consequences are the result of wrong doing rather than coincidence. So, your wife's regret may erradicate positive associations from the affair.

However, you have to raise the pain level for both of you to reach that point. You cannot be certain that it will not cause your relationship to snap. However, it may be that failing to put pressure on your wife will result in bad feelings with which you cannot cope. Your marriage could be poisoned.

If would have been better if you had forced your wife to confess more fully, earlier on. You didn't. So, you are struggling. How many do everything perfecty under pressure in crisis? Don't beat yourself up.

2) You determine to go forward in life, seeking to make certain that your sex life is good. Sex technique or tricks could make you a mystery man, allowing you to top OM. But that might appear insecure. Ultimately, if you become more self confident as person, your wife will be more attracted and in love with you. Anytime two people in love have sex, it can be amazing.

One TAM truism that I have never heard denied is that reconciliation is always hard, often it is harder than divorce. But the fact that your calls divorce a different set problems shows that she is a thinking person.

Some BS are just dying to reconcile but their wayward wives either refuse to have sex or agree to have sex but just lie there. So, in that respect you are a priviledged among the victims of adultery. 

One thing you might want to consider to gain to psychological balance is to post OM on Cheaterville. You would not put your wife's name up there. It could make OM's job less pleasant. If you can make him pay, you may feel a lot better.

You once wrote.


> I sometimes think about blowing up his life like he did to mine but sent him a text as soon as I found out and told him if he ever spoke to my wife again I would do just that. no evidence he hasn't complied.


You owe him nothing but a virtual Internet age kick in the teeth. If he feels that you are not a man of honor and contacts you, tell him that he is free to come to your house so that you can discuss the matter in person. He won't have the courage to face you. Who knows you might be a pıssed off husband with a baseball bat.


----------



## Wazza

Road, the truth is, there is no right answer.

Is she trying? Well who knows....if she thinks she has told you everything, maybe she is. But you have to test it to be sure. Sad isn;'t it. You cannot just believe what your wife says, because of the lies she has told in the recent past.

But then, lots of people lie and hope they won't be caught. It isn't right, and in your situation it is downright dangerous, but it is normal.

Just bear in mind that this is a marathon. The fallout of this will last years. You cannot solve it, whatever approach you take, in five minutes.

I still struggle with the notion that she pleads for another chance, and says she will do whatever it takes, but then won't write out a timeline, and is dragging her feet on changing jobs. I can understand with the job, but not the timeline. Not saying you need a timeline to reconcile....but if she will do what it takes, why won't she do that?

Sorry you feel bad when you come here, but is that because we are all being overly negative, or because we are forcing you to confront issues you would rather not face?


----------



## bfree

Wazza said:


> Road, the truth is, there is no right answer.
> 
> Is she trying? Well who knows....if she thinks she has told you everything, maybe she is. But you have to test it to be sure. Sad isn;'t it. You cannot just believe what your wife says, because of the lies she has told in the recent past.
> 
> But then, lots of people lie and hope they won't be caught. It isn't right, and in your situation it is downright dangerous, but it is normal.
> 
> Just bear in mind that this is a marathon. The fallout of this will last years. You cannot solve it, whatever approach you take, in five minutes.
> 
> I still struggle with the notion that she pleads for another chance, and says she will do whatever it takes, but then won't write out a timeline, and is dragging her feet on changing jobs. I can understand with the job, but not the timeline. Not saying you need a timeline to reconcile....but if she will do what it takes, why won't she do that?
> 
> Sorry you feel bad when you come here, but *is that because we are all being overly negative, or because we are forcing you to confront issues you would rather not face*?


I think RS is in his own fog. And it will probably cost him his marriage at some point.


----------



## LostViking

No real consequences for her at all. 

Her chances of cheating again down the road? Probably 75%. Cheating again with the OM? 50%. 

It isn't over.


----------



## Thor

Why won't she give you a timeline?

I can only come up with one answer. Because she fears it will cause you to divorce her if you know the full truth. She sees less risk of divorce by withholding data than giving you the timeline.


----------



## LostViking

I would never accept duty sex....or pity sex...from an unremorseful WW. 

No way. She is keeping him happy so he won't dig. She's playing OP like a cheap violin.


----------



## LongWalk

> I still struggle with the notion that she pleads for another chance, and says she will do whatever it takes, but then won't write out a timeline, and is dragging her feet on changing jobs. I can understand with the job, but not the timeline. Not saying you need a timeline to reconcile....but if she will do what it takes, why won't she do that?
> /QUOTE]
> :iagree:
> 
> Bfree,
> 
> I don't think he is a fog. He knows as everyone else that the sexless marriage was killing him. He put a stop to it by following TAM advice and threatening divorce. That action restored his wife's libido. He has both gained and lost from this. Gained because she is treating him better, but lost because he did not push his advantage to gain 100% remorse.
> 
> His wife is smart and strong minded, so this post affair relationship has changed the dynamics of their interaction. That both of them see divorce as an outcome implies that 100 percent remorse may never come. She simply will not allow herself to be at a disadvantage in terms of power.
> 
> One of the reasons she had the affair may have been that she no longer respected him, for he was unable to stand up for himself.
> 
> Jerry123 is a very good example in this respect. He was a tool and die maker who quit his job to be a stay at home dad. His wife, who was making good money with some big company, felt no respect and attraction. He strongly suspected her cheating but couldn't prove it. At last when he was sick of her disrespect he told her that he was going to divorce her.
> 
> She finally cracked and Jerry123 was at last getting laid. He did not give her vanilla sex but came on rather dominant. But from Jerry's description there is tension in their relationship. He broaches no shıt from her.


----------



## LostViking

Yeah but being in a marriage where there is a constant power play between husband and wife, instead of partnership, just sucks. It just sucks the bone. 

I could see sweating it out in a relationship like this if there are kids involved, but after the kids are gone? D time. 

No one should spend the rest of their life with a WS who's only concern is who has the power advantage in the relationship. That is just no way to live.


----------



## Wazza

Thor said:


> Why won't she give you a timeline?
> 
> I can only come up with one answer. Because she fears it will cause you to divorce her if you know the full truth. She sees less risk of divorce by withholding data than giving you the timeline.


No, there are other reasons.

If she is penitent, you are forcing her to spend time thinking in detail about something she did that is deeply shameful and possibly painful to her. A BS has to live with what was done to them, but a WS with a conscience has to live with what they did. 

Depending how it is approached, Mrs RS may also see RS as attacking her, not seeking to work through issues.

And lots of people would say you aren't going to heal if you keep picking at the scab of the affair. Of course, you do need to clear the air, but the point at which it is no longer constructive to discuss things is different for each couple. Some people confront problems, others bury them. 

So there are other reasons. But of course, your answer is probably part if it. For my wife, I think all of the above were at play.


----------



## Road Scholar

LongWalk said:


> You once wrote.
> 
> You owe him nothing but a virtual Internet age kick in the teeth. If he feels that you are not a man of honor and contacts you, tell him that he is free to come to your house so that you can discuss the matter in person. He won't have the courage to face you. Who knows you might be a pıssed off husband with a baseball bat.


It has been eating away at me that he is at a hotel 30 minutes away with his colleagues in a mentoring workshop offsite where he is a mentor. 

Company big wigs are coming out to close the session. Keep thinking of picketing outside the hotel/conference room with something like "POSOM WILL MENTOR YOU ON HOW TO CHEAT ON YOUR WIFE AND FAMILY" or "POSOM HAD A 7 MONTH AFFAIR WITH MY WIFE. IS HE YOUR MENTOR?" or simply go there tonight or tomorrow and beat the living **** out of him. I'm guessing he will be having ****tails in the area or somewhere. I don't want to get arrested of course but the idea is compelling and would be very satisfying.


----------



## walkonmars

Road Scholar said:


> It has been eating away at me that he is at a hotel 30 minutes away with his colleagues in a mentoring workshop offsite where he is a mentor.
> 
> Company big wigs are coming out to close the session. Keep thinking of picketing outside the hotel/conference room with something like "POSOM WILL MENTOR YOU ON HOW TO CHEAT ON YOUR WIFE AND FAMILY" or "POSOM HAD A 7 MONTH AFFAIR WITH MY WIFE. IS HE YOUR MENTOR?" or simply go there tonight or tomorrow and beat the living **** out of him. I'm guessing he will be having ****tails in the area or somewhere. I don't want to get arrested of course but the idea is compelling and would be very satisfying.


hoooboy... if this is part of his reg duties it's probably a good bet your wife wasn't the only one he was messin' with. Players with game gotta play.


----------



## seasalt

How did you come by this information? I know the common wisdom is not to confront but some type of self-respect restoring form of a consequense would be my choice. Do you have a brother or friend available to you to keep things from getting out-of-hand? A confrontation does not have to be a physical one to get satisfaction.

I tell my children that you should try to do good, right and smart things, not bad, wrong and stupid things. As long as you're prepared for the consequences a stupid thing can be and feel good and right.

Good luck'

Seasalt


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## Will_Kane

Her setting up a spa appointment is only a big deal when contrasted with how horribly she was treating you before. If she hadn't treated you so horribly, you wouldn't think so highly of it. 

She picked up the phone and made an appointment, then wrote you a nice email.

It's OK to be happy about it. Just try not to get too carried away by it. 

After all, just two short months ago you were sniffing around and getting none while she was going to town with other man. Now she is being nice to you and having sex with you (that's kind of what I expected when I got married, didn't you? It would be kind of sad if you made too big a deal of it).

When she says she is "willing to do what it takes," does that not include answering your questions about dates, places, and times? How it started, how it ended?


----------



## LostViking

He's too afraid to take her to the brink and force the truth out if her and she's more than happy to prevaricate.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## carpenoctem

Road Scholar said:


> It has been eating away at me that he is at a hotel 30 minutes away with his colleagues in a mentoring workshop offsite where he is a mentor.
> 
> Company big wigs are coming out to close the session. Keep thinking of picketing outside the hotel/conference room with something like "POSOM WILL MENTOR YOU ON HOW TO CHEAT ON YOUR WIFE AND FAMILY" or "POSOM HAD A 7 MONTH AFFAIR WITH MY WIFE. IS HE YOUR MENTOR?" or simply go there tonight or tomorrow and beat the living **** out of him. I'm guessing he will be having ****tails in the area or somewhere. I don't want to get arrested of course but the idea is compelling and would be very satisfying.



*RS:

*

If you were my own brother, I would feel really bad if you did this. I would feel you were degrading yourself in front of the OM (though this sort of an undignified exposure is what he deserves).

I would wish there was another way where the psychological advantage was with you, not him. Where the intra-male dynamics was in your favour, not his.

*If you confront him at the conference venue, and instead of cringing in shame, he laughs at you / scoffs you, that would lacerate your sense of manhood really bad.*

Maybe cheaterville? Maybe arrange for a print-out (“Mentor, or Tormentor?”) to be handed over (by someone else), to all participants of this event? So that you are not there personally?

Maybe.

I just don’t want you to feel any more ashamed / outraged than you do already.

Just a thought.


----------



## davecarter

Road Scholar said:


> It has been eating away at me that he is at a hotel 30 minutes away with his colleagues in a mentoring workshop offsite where he is a mentor.
> Company big wigs are coming out to close the session. Keep thinking of picketing outside the hotel/conference room with something like "POSOM WILL MENTOR YOU ON HOW TO CHEAT ON YOUR WIFE AND FAMILY" or "POSOM HAD A 7 MONTH AFFAIR WITH MY WIFE. IS HE YOUR MENTOR?" or simply go there tonight or tomorrow and beat the living **** out of him. I'm guessing he will be having ****tails in the area or somewhere. I don't want to get arrested of course but the idea is compelling and would be very satisfying.


Hmmm...just a hunch here, but somehow, your nice-guy, head-in-the-sand, Catholic upbringing/training makes me think....you won't do _any _of this...





...which is a good thing!


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## jack.c

R.S.

Once you come back from your weekend, why not considering a 180? What I mean is let her see that you need to work on yourself because you still cant forget or forgive.... make her understand that she is in a dangerous probabilty of D. but without saying it... 
Then she will see that YOU CHANGED and THAT YOU DO NOT HAVE TRUST AND RESPECT for her, and at that point watch her actions and see what she will do SERIOUSLY for her to keep you! 
It's a psychological work THAT helps to have answers. But most of all make you understand if she is willing to do THE REAL HARDWORK!


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## LongWalk

Road Scholar said:


> It has been eating away at me that he is at a hotel 30 minutes away with his colleagues in a mentoring workshop offsite where he is a mentor.
> 
> Company big wigs are coming out to close the session. Keep thinking of picketing outside the hotel/conference room with something like "POSOM WILL MENTOR YOU ON HOW TO CHEAT ON YOUR WIFE AND FAMILY" or "POSOM HAD A 7 MONTH AFFAIR WITH MY WIFE. IS HE YOUR MENTOR?" or simply go there tonight or tomorrow and beat the living **** out of him. I'm guessing he will be having ****tails in the area or somewhere. I don't want to get arrested of course but the idea is compelling and would be very satisfying.


Of course this is not allowed in our times. In past men could meet rivals like this when they left the pub on Friday night and smash them up. If they were alpha or sufficiently enraged they did it without thought of losing the fight. They were going to win or fvcking die trying.

Others had brothers and friends so there was no chance of a fair fight. We are still animals inside. Have you ever noticed that in so many virtual games, GTA, you are allowed to express all the violent urges, killing and humiliating the competiting DNA? Amazing to think of the market size.

Put POSOM on Cheaterville. Write up a little text, keep in factual and emotion free. You may run a draft by us here for critique. Later you can delete the posts with the draft to avoid it being Google searchable. You will be surprized with how good you will feel as he is lashed on the virtual shame pole.


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## PreRaphaelite

RS: I read most of your posts and I just want to make one point that you do not seem to have wrapped your head around as of yet.

Why has she delayed so much in constructing a timeline? Is it because she doesn't want you to focus on the past? Fear?

It's because she didn't have sex with him once or 3 times. It's because they had sex as often as they could, and if it was possible, even at work. A quickie in the office.

The number of times they had sex over a 5 month period is way, way beyond 3x. 3x a week is far more likely. 

Deal with that and stop avoiding it.


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## LongWalk

Yes, you need to put an official estimate on it, so that you can deal with it.

Importantly, your wife also needs to do an accounting of the affair for herself. Tell her she needs to quantify it because it is something she has to deal with, too. Even if the facts are extremely unpalatable, they give you a reference point from which the two of you share.

And as far as the power dynamics of your relationship, you may have to change them in your favor for a long period of time. Remember, you don't just want to coexist and cohabit. The idea is to be with someone you respect and care for.

She is trying and it is fair and honest to ask even more. The key is to not lose your temper. You need to be resolute but restrained. The stronger you are at the core. The more she will look up to you and discover that her reasons for staying are not just a kind love tinged with pity for poor you.

Your goal is to get back to the feeling that when you are having sex she completely surrenders.

If you do Cheaterville, she will be surprised that you are that kind of guy. I predict it will turn her on. You must act like it is no big deal. Every guy who messes with you can expect some fight. 

Don't apologize to her for feeling rage inside. Don't be nice if you don't feel like it.


----------



## warlock07

Road Scholar said:


> I appreciate all that have posted here and all that have followed my story. I know it's been frustrating for some of you. This is a great post.
> 
> Part of why I stayed away for a couple weeks was because I usually have left this site feeling worse than when I visited it. I don't mean that to be a negative comment to anyone that posts here or to be a critical comment on any of the post because I feel they all can provide some value and insight to my situation. I have learned a great deal here. All your insight helps me question what I am doing and whether I am making mistakes or not. It's hard to know to be honest and the outside perspective with people knowledgeable about this sort of thing is valuable.
> 
> After a pretty tough talk last night with the W on not providing me with information and details. I actually felt pretty good last night and this am. Morning sex is always good. Not crazy but good. BTW, the sex has been pretty good. Probably not affair sex, but good.
> 
> Usually after I get serious and we talk about the situation I end up feeling better. She doesn't necessarily provide the details or facts I want but she provides reassurance that she loves me, that she regrets all that has happened, that she will forever regret what she did and how badly she hurt me, that she doesn't want to lose me or our family. To give her one more chance to prove based on her actions that she loves me. To continue giving her this gift to let her prove to me that she can make me happy, that we can be happy together. To give it time. She realizes that D is a very real possibility whether she thinks I will or not, she realizes even I have a breaking point and I am at it. She knows I don't want to but that I am there and giving it consideration. It's real. I have a lot to forgive. It's a lot to get past. She told me she would be devastated. That I would trade our problems for another set of problems. Stuff i told her during the 5 months really. She is trying to convince me to stay and to continue to fight for us.
> 
> Earlier in the week she provided parking receipts for trips out of town that I asked for. It confirms she went on the trips but doesn't confirm whether he was with her or not. She told me place they went for lunch, dinner on various dates. Again she tells me that I know "everything". I don't know everything. We haven't talked about every single date and what occurred where they went, what they did. WTF is knowing everything anyhow?? I know they had sex. I know she thought she loved him and told him so. I know she lied, cheated, betrayed me and our kids to be with him and when she got busted once, she did it again. I know it lasted 2 months plus 5 months plus months leading up to it. All in, better part of a year. I don't know that I care about many other details but I want her to come clean on her own without me have to follow up on specific questions I have asked because it's always a day later or not at all if I don't press.
> 
> Still as someone said, she hasn't left. She is here with me and wants to stay based on what she si saying. She is asking for forgiveness and another chance. She hasn't left and claims to be where she wants to be. I am not fighting for her to break from the fog. She seems to be out of it, at least mostly. She realizes at least to some extent the damage she has done. Of course she has a backup plan. She's not stupid. She is being practical - at least for now. She realizes she will need an income if we D. I don't think that is a bad thing. I have been thinking about my back up plan as well if things don't work out as intended. I don't know that that says anything about what she wants or her intentions or mine. We have responsibility. We have bills and are adults.
> 
> Marriage and my family in tact are important to me so are all the other things. (sex, intimacy, truthfullness, trust, love, etc.) At this point she is telling me that she wants those things and is willing to do what it takes have them in our marriage.
> 
> I don't know if we will get there or be able to reconcile but I am willing to try. I plan to continue pushing for disclosure along the way.
> 
> I told her I going to spend some time with my Mom this weekend for her birthday and allow myself time to think. I told her I was going to take her to a spa. She called the spa this am set everything up for both of us on Saturday and sent me an email - her treat.
> 
> 1:30 80 minute signature massage for RS
> 1:30 Signature pedicure for Mom
> 2:30 Color for Mom
> 3:45 Haircut for Mom
> 
> Hi- I just sent you a couple of emails from my hotmail accounts with your details . *I am jealous but no two people deserve a day of pampering more than you and your mom.* I love you both very much.
> 
> I'm curious as to what everyone's read is on this. It tells me she is trying and trying to be thoughtful and demonstrate this through actions.
> 
> Your thoughts? Many thanks to you ALL!! R.S.


I would ask her to cancel it if I were you..The sucking up cannot be more obvious than this. RS, how easy are you ?


----------



## LongWalk

No need to cancel. But recognize that these are gestures. They are only bad if they are enough. But they are not enough. Warlock is right that you cannot be easy. Easy will destroy her respect for you. Does she want to be with an easy conquest.

Do not belittle her.

By the way, you are successfully describing your wife and relationship, the place that you are at. Your wife is a strong personality. She is artful, pragmatic, intelligent. She considered herself to be a good person and his struggling to reconcile that with the reality of how she has treated you.

If she had been honest, she would not have taken the wrong path. Have you asked her if one of the issues she faces is her desire to salvage her sense of selfworth? Because if that is her primary motivation for reconciliation she can skip it. Reconciliation is not an obligation. She can repair her life as a divorced woman, too. In any case, she needs to deal with this on an individual level. You cannot fix her some sort of blessing of forgiveness. She must forgive herself. That will take time in complex situation.

RS, the 5 sexless months that ended when you threatened divorce, how has your wife explained that? Would her desire have returned in and of itself if you had not prepared to hurl your marriage over the cliff?

Does she wish that you have done it earlier? Or does she feel she had to go through this mourning period? 

Before the affair did you ever spank her hard during sex and talk dirty? Have you wanted to do that now? Have you dared? Hmmm... and I wrote "do not belittle her". Seems like a contradiction. You'll figure it out.


----------



## Thor

PreRaphaelite said:


> RS: I read most of your posts and I just want to make one point that you do not seem to have wrapped your head around as of yet.
> 
> Why has she delayed so much in constructing a timeline? Is it because she doesn't want you to focus on the past? Fear?
> 
> It's because she didn't have sex with him once or 3 times. It's because they had sex as often as they could, and if it was possible, even at work. A quickie in the office.
> 
> The number of times they had sex over a 5 month period is way, way beyond 3x. 3x a week is far more likely.
> 
> Deal with that and stop avoiding it.


I agree this is likely the reason she is avoiding.

Reconciliation requires the betrayer to make amends. The betrayer has to genuinely feel remorse for the harm done, and then has to seek to in some way make up for the wrongs committed.

I think this means the betrayer has to capitulate. The betrayer has to give up control over the reconciliation. The betrayer has to ask to be forgiven, and has to be willing to do whatever their spouse needs.

If the betrayer is unable to capitulate, or unwilling to do what the spouse asks for, there is no R.

Mrs. RS is either unwilling or unable to capitulate. She is failing to let go of control of the R, and thus RS is not getting what he needs.


----------



## carmen ohio

Dear RS,

Your dilemma is that you want her to tell you the whole truth about her A but are reluctant to insist that she do so (which would require you to start D proceedings if she continues to refuse).

Eventually, you must decide whether you can live with not knowing everything that happened between your WW and the OM. If you can, then settling for TT may work for you. Just be aware that you will likely be haunted for a long time, maybe for the rest of your life, with questions and doubts about the extent of her betrayal, how deeply she loved him and why she returned to you.

Even if the two of you manage to smooth over your marital problems in the short term, there are numerous threads on TAM/CWI that indicate that most BSs can neither heal completely nor genuinely forgive the WS without learning the truth. It is for this reason that most posters, myself included, believe that your R will be significantly more difficult and may ultimately fail if she doesn't tell you everything you want to know.

I presume you _will_ insist that she leave her employer soon, so that she no longer has any reason to be in contact with the OM. If you fail to do this, then I see little chance of your ever again being happily married to her.

Still wishing you and your family the best possible outcome.


----------



## Road Scholar

Just got back from the conference hotel. Not really sure what I was going to do or say when I got there. My heart was pounding out of my chest. I could feel the rage in me as I walked in and waited outside the ballroom doors where I anticipated him being. I wanted to catch him on the way out. This am would have been better but I need to keep my job and didn't want to take off time so I went at lunch. 

He must have bailed early. Not there. Who knows maybe didn't go at all. I checked the front desk he did not stay at the hotel. Could have stayed elsewhere I guess where he gets his points. Or maybe was taking precautions.

The wife knows I went there. I didn't see any reason to hide it from her. She was pleading with me to leave so I didn't get arrested (again) and have a record.

I'm in a bad place right now and so is she. She feels me pushing for the D today. Last night was the opposite. I feel like I feed the rage and hate and hurt when I am like this. When I feel good about her efforts and affection, I feel like a sucker and resentful. Partly because of feedback here partly because I am of how she treated me over the 7 months. 

I haven't lost my temper but I am pushing her away now. Rejecting her efforts to R and pushing for D. She feels it too. She wanted to do something with the kids tonight. I told her I wanted to do something with them and me. Saturday night pizza for my Mom she said she will not go to respect my wishes. 

Now we're both hurting. Is this progress? 

Feels like hate and resentment will get you one place only. D not R. Love may not work either but at least it seems to keep all options open. I don't know. I feel better being in the drivers seat but not sure I like where I'm going.


----------



## Road Scholar

BTW, she is absolutely planning on leaving the job. NOT NEGOTIABLE, but timing will depend.

There are no disputes or questions about that.


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## BK23

Road Scholar said:


> BTW, she is absolutely planning on leaving the job. NOT NEGOTIABLE, but timing will depend.
> 
> There are no disputes or questions about that.


Just like she's planning on giving you a timeline? Not trying to pour fuel on the fire, but she's still not doing what she needs to do to help you heal. How long will you wait?


----------



## Thorburn

Just part of the emotional roller coaster ride.


----------



## Clay2013

Road Scholar said:


> Just got back from the conference hotel. Not really sure what I was going to do or say when I got there. My heart was pounding out of my chest. I could feel the rage in me as I walked in and waited outside the ballroom doors where I anticipated him being. I wanted to catch him on the way out. This am would have been better but I need to keep my job and didn't want to take off time so I went at lunch.
> 
> He must have bailed early. Not there. Who knows maybe didn't go at all. I checked the front desk he did not stay at the hotel. Could have stayed elsewhere I guess where he gets his points. Or maybe was taking precautions.
> 
> The wife knows I went there. I didn't see any reason to hide it from her. She was pleading with me to leave so I didn't get arrested (again) and have a record.
> 
> I'm in a bad place right now and so is she. She feels me pushing for the D today. Last night was the opposite. I feel like I feed the rage and hate and hurt when I am like this. When I feel good about her efforts and affection, I feel like a sucker and resentful. Partly because of feedback here partly because I am of how she treated me over the 7 months.
> 
> I haven't lost my temper but I am pushing her away now. Rejecting her efforts to R and pushing for D. She feels it too. She wanted to do something with the kids tonight. I told her I wanted to do something with them and me. Saturday night pizza for my Mom she said she will not go to respect my wishes.
> 
> Now we're both hurting. Is this progress?
> 
> Feels like hate and resentment will get you one place only. D not R. Love may not work either but at least it seems to keep all options open. I don't know. I feel better being in the drivers seat but not sure I like where I'm going.


The real problem is now you have to make a choice. It is not fair this was put on you or how you have been treated but this is the way it goes. You have to figure out if you can move passed it or D. It sounds like her still being in that job is a real trigger for you. I think that is the first thing that needs to be done if not today. I understand you might have financial things to deal with but that is the breaks. Your hear now. You have to take action now for the sake of your own sanity. 

Clay


----------



## turnera

Road Scholar said:


> Just got back from the conference hotel.
> 
> He must have bailed early. Not there.
> 
> The wife knows I went there.
> 
> She was pleading with me to leave


He wasn't there. Well, duh.



Road Scholar said:


> so I didn't get arrested (again) and have a record.


Yeah, right.


----------



## Road Scholar

turnera said:


> He wasn't there. Well, duh.
> 
> Yeah, right.


Sorry, to clarify, she did NOT know I was going there in advance but called me while I was there so I told her where I was. 

If you're implying she told him, it wasn't possible since she did not know.

Oh and my other arrest was from 20 years ago, when I was a real hothead.


----------



## turnera

WHILE you were there, or AFTER YOU LEFT? Big difference.


----------



## LongWalk

RS,

Usually TAMers on CWI say "don't go and get in a fight," and then list the consequences, arrest, jail, child custody issues, etc. Bullwinkle, one the legendary TAM posters praised a BH who beat up an OM. He considered it a sound response in an age of politically correct dishonesty.

The other point that is often made is that you should be angy at your WW, not the OM. The OM never vowed to remain stay clear of married women. Some even go so far as to say one should thank the OM for taking the POSWW because her POS'ness had been concealed, but since it had come out the POS cheaters deserved each other.

But in evolutionary terms we know this is in part rationalization. POSOM turned you into a cuckold and at the biologcial level was trying to impregnate your mate so that you could devote your resources to furthering his DNA. This is why affair sex is often without a condom. Naturally, you want to drive off such a competitor.

By wandering around that meeting with murder in your eyes, you have sent out a signal to POSOM. Didn't HR at your wife's company give her a dressing down for violating the company code of ethics that forbid sexual relationship colleagues? So your appearance may well have been observed by those who know you. Perhaps someone will inform OM that you are a potential OJ Simpson type.

At the liminal level your wife might actually find you more attractive because of this behavior. I cannot see any positive selection process in your being passive.

Have you read the sexual harrassment section of the corporate ethical guidelines at your wife's company? She ought to have the basis for a lawsuit if she wanted to claim that OM used his authority over her. She may be unwilling to consider such a suit because she either wants to protect the OM or she believes that the affair occurred by mutual consent and had no bearing on work.

Although she may tell herself that she and the OM merely had good chemistry, in reality we all know how men who want sex think: anything that promotes the cause of bedding a woman can flash through the mind. How could he not have considered the hot nookie was subordinate? He certainly weighed the effect of his position as factor.

He would have thought and thought again before trying to seduce a senior VP above him the chain of command.

Your wife is smart. She has probably gone through these things in her own mind, but from her subjective angle. Maybe you have even discussed how OM asked her to come and discuss her great project proposal Powerpoint presentation and when he told her how terrific and asset she was to the company, and then he put his hand frmly on her shoulder and in so doing broke down a barrier on the way to more flirting and carressing. 

In a timeline your wife would have to reveal this process. You will never get your wife to admit that he liked to stick finger in the backdoor when they had intercourse or anything like that, but the emotional process in the seduction is important for you. Maybe your wife pursued him and that is what he told HR.

If you decide to resort to Cheaterville, you may wish to put the Gray Goose vodka fishing message into the text. OM did not give up pursuing your wife. You might PM GutPunch, Disenchanted and other BS who used Cheaterville successfully. GutPunch didn't but I think he regretted it.

I think the rage that you feel is healthy. If you don't channel it towards the OM, then it must go towards your WW or even back towards yourself.


----------



## Will_Kane

Road, have you considered giving your wife amnesty? You sound like you want to reconcile no matter what, and if your wife really is re-committing fully to the marriage, I don't blame you, no matter what she did. If the reason she is not telling you is because she thinks it might cause you to leave, giving her amnesty might help.

None of us said go beat the sh1t out of the other man. Go after him legally, through your wife, once she gets out.

The main thing is that she leave the company. You have time to get the truth. Though after a certain period of time, maybe six months, if you don't have it, it gets less and less likely that you ever will get it.

I must say that it is a very odd situation. Wife says she wants to re-commit to the marriage and will do anything, but will not just tell you the truth, even with you obviously hurting over it. Something ain't right with that picture.

It could be that after she leaves the company, and sees and hears and reads nothing about other man for a few weeks, she will detach from him and tell you what you want to know. Maybe she is afraid you will blow it up at her job if you know the full truth, like you tried today. Maybe she is embarrassed about some of the places they did it. Maybe it was in your home, or in the bathroom of a gas station, or some other place. Maybe it was way, way more than you thought. Maybe she is just extremely stubborn and prideful and can't admit the full details of how badly she screwed up. I'm sure that if she told you it was any or all of those things, you still would reconcile with her.

Calm yourself down, work on your marriage to the extent you can, *think of your family, your kids*, wait for her to leave the job, and hope that she opens up more after that. In the meantime, just imagine that the worst happened, that she did it at dates, times, and places that are extremely hurtful and she did it a lot, and when you do find out the truth, you will be prepared for it. Keep pushing her for the details, but try to stay calm when you do it.

Consider offering her amnesty if she'll give you the truth.

Consider running the 180 until you get the truth.

Consider working on the marriage and trying to be happy, and delay the battle for the truth for some time in the near future, AFTER she's been out of that job for a few weeks.

Whatever path you pick, stick with it for at least the next few weeks.


----------



## anchorwatch

Joseph's Letter 

This is a post by Joseph, a member of the now defunct BAN Message Board. He wrote to this letter to his wife to explain why he asked for details of her affair.

To......... ,

I know you are feeling the pain of guilt and confusion. I understand that you wish all this never happened and that you wish it would just go away. I can even believe that you truly love me and that your indiscretion hurts you emotionally much the same way it hurts me. I understand your apprehension to me discovering little by little, everything that led up to your indiscretion, everything that happened that night, and everything that happened afterwards. I understand. No one wants to have a mistake or misjudgment thrown in his or her face repeatedly.

No one wants to be forced to 'look' at the thing that caused all their pain over and over again. I can actually see, that through your eyes, you are viewing this whole thing as something that just needs to go away, something that is over, that he/she doesn’t mean anything to you, so why is it such a big issue? I can understand you wondering why I torture myself with this continuously, and thinking, doesn’t he/she know by now that I love him/her? I can see how you can feel this way and how frustrating it must be. But for the remainder of this letter I’m going to ask you to view my reality through my eyes.

You were there. There is no detail left out from your point of view. Like a puzzle, you have all the pieces and you are able to reconstruct them and be able to understand the whole picture, the whole message, or the whole meaning. You know exactly what that picture is and what it means to you and if it can effect your life and whether or not it continues to stir your feelings. You have the pieces, the tools, and the knowledge.

You can move through your life with 100% of the picture you compiled. If you have any doubts, then at least you’re carrying all the information in your mind and you can use it to derive conclusions or answers to your doubts or question. You carry all the 'STUFF' to figure out OUR reality. There isn’t really any information, or pieces to the puzzle that you don’t have.

Now let’s enter my reality. Let’s both agree that this affects our lives equally. The outcome no matter what it is well affect us both. Our future and our present circumstances are every bit as important to me as it is to you. So, why then is it okay for me to be left in the dark? Do I not deserve to know as much about the night that nearly destroyed our relationship as you do? Just like you, I am also able to discern the meaning of certain particulars and innuendoes of that night and just like you, I deserve to be given the opportunity to understand what nearly brought our relationship down.

To assume that I can move forward and accept everything at face value is unrealistic and unless we stop thinking unrealistically I doubt our lives well ever 'feel' complete. You have given me a puzzle. It is a 1000 piece puzzle and 400 random pieces are missing. You expect me to assemble the puzzle without the benefit of looking at the picture on the box. You expect me to be able to discern what I am looking at and to appreciate it in the same context as you. You want me to be as comfortable with what I see in the picture as you are.

When I ask if there was a tree in such and such area of the picture you tell me don’t worry about it, it’s not important. When I ask whether there were any animals in my puzzle you say don’t worry about it, it’s not important. When I ask if there was a lake in that big empty spot in my puzzle you say, what’s the difference, it’s not important.

Then later when I’m expected to understand the picture in my puzzle you fail to understand my disorientation and confusion. You expect me to feel the same way about the picture as you do but deny me the same view as you. When I express this problem you feel compelled to admonish me for not understanding it, for not seeing it the way you see it.

You wonder why I can’t just accept whatever you chose to describe to me about the picture and then be able to feel the same way you feel about it.

So, you want me to be okay with everything. You think you deserve to know and I deserve to wonder. You may honestly feel that the whole picture, everything that happened is insignificant because in your heart you know it was a mistake and wish it never happened. But how can I know that? Faith? Because you told me so? Would you have faith if the tables were turned? Don’t you understand that I want to believe you completely? But how can I? I can never know what is truly in your mind and heart.

I can only observe you actions, and what information I have acquired and slowly, over time rebuild my faith in your feelings. I truly wish it were easier.

So, there it is, as best as I can put it. That is why I ask questions. That is where my need to know is derived from. And that is why it is unfair for you to think that we can effectively move forward and unfair for you to accuse me of dwelling on the past. My need to know stems from my desire to hold our world together.

It doesn’t come from jealousy, it doesn’t come from spitefulness, and it doesn’t come from a desire to make you suffer. It comes from the fact that I love you. Why else would I put myself through this? Wouldn’t it be easier for me to walk away? Wouldn’t it be easier to consider our relationship a bad mistake in my life and to move on to better horizons? Of course it would, but I can’t and the reason I can’t is because I love you and that reason in itself makes all the difference in the world.


----------



## LongWalk

I think what Will is saying is that you have come to a fork in the road. I agree with him. However, when he writes:



> The main thing is that *she leave the company*. You have time to get the truth. Though after a certain period of time, maybe six months, if you don't have it, it gets less and less likely that you ever will get it.


I disagree.

Correct me if I getting it wrong. Your wife reporte to the OM and was below him in the corporate hiararchy. Therefore OM should leave the company. Your wife is the victims of sexal harrassment. Pursuing this vigorously now could be an important decision. 

By blaming the OM does that mean you are mitigating or denying her guilt? Formally, perhaps to some degree, but not personally. Your wife was not threatened with dismissal if she refused him. She willingly opened her legs for him.

But why force her to quit when that punishes your family economically. Force the OM out. Talk to a lawyer who can represent your wife. I would personally contact HR and request an appointment for you, your wife and the attorney to meet HR and the OM's boss.

By being an annoying person you will embarrass your wife. But let's be frank here; the affair was not a secret. She is already embarrassed. That is one reason that she agrees to leave the company. If she is going to leave, why not force them to offer 8 months severance pay.

If they jack you around, put the OM on Cheaterville. When people Google, they will look up his name and see the company. The company will hate this.

The longer you put off going after the OM, the harder it will be to make him pay.

re: amnesty
It is true that you very much have written about your desire for reconciliation. The obstacle to a successful reconciliation was the sexless state of your marriage. Now that your have sex, you are not satisfied. In fact, you are even leaning more towards divorce.

Your wife feels this change in your mood. It must feel good to you that you can make an impression on her after 5 months of going to bed when your wife wasn't feeling it. Did you used to go to bed naked when you were inititating sex? If you had an erection coming on did you hide it in shame? Did your wife cover up more? No wonder you are angry. I don't think you can just declare an amnesty, not with the level of rage you feel.

At some point in the future you may wish to ask your wife's forgiveness for the intensity of what she is going through, but you are nowhere near that.

One thing that Will may be suggesting is that it is not good to drive your wife so hard that she concludes divorce is inevitable and just gives up. At this point you are only a short distance from saying hurtful things to each other.

Your wife seems to love you, but her remorse is not unconditional. Perhaps her love for the OM is receding but she doesn't feel that it is process that she can consciously control. Perhaps writing out a timeline is too painful for her because she still love him and feels despair when recalling the many happy moments she had with him. 

Your wife has always been level headed enough to measure the evil of divorce against the evil of lost love. The lost love includes both yours and the OM's. She loved two men and may lose both of them.

I don't sense that your wife is prepared to give up on your marriage yet. Instead of offering her her amnesty, would you consider handing her pen and paper and telling her to start writing the timeline. You should not threaten her with divorce. She is smart enough to understand that the spa treatment is not enough. You want to know how the MFPOSOM got into her pants.


----------



## Will_Kane

Will_Kane said:


> I must say that it is a very odd situation. Wife says she wants to re-commit to the marriage and will do anything, but will not just tell you the truth, even with you obviously hurting over it. Something ain't right with that picture.


I can't read Road and I can't read his wife.

Something is not right with the situation. If she's as sorry and wants to "prove it by her actions" as much as Road says she keeps saying she does, she would have given up the majority of the truth by now.

I would understand a little bit of trickle truth, I don't think any of us ever gets 100% truth, but Road has like 25% truth when, if wife is really that sorry, he should have 90% plus by now. Road and his wife both are very educated, expressive people. They both know how to get their points across. How could his wife not see what is needed here is some truth?

She failed miserably at no contact after D-day 1 and carried on affair for five more months, now after D-day 2 she shows zero signs of relapse and seems totally committed (except for truth, except for leaving job). Road says affair lasted two months prior to first D-day and five months after it. The five months we know, but how do we know only two months before? To be in that deep, it would seem to me it would need to be a lot longer than that, minimum six months to a year.

Many truly remorseful wives would have quit the job with nothing else to go to, just up and quit and worried about finding a job later, just to keep betrayed husband from divorcing. Road made it clear that money was not an issue, wife still did not leave.

She still works with other man, who knows how much contact they have? We now know it is not zero, that he drops by her office and sees her. No matter what, she still sees his emails, she still sees project plans, training plans, etc., with his name on them. Undoubtedly colleagues knew that wife and other man were "friends" and for either of them to be completely distant to the other would give something away.

Road did not seriously threaten divorce over getting the truth, and did not threaten at all with leaving the job.

Wife was happy before being married to Road and carrying on affair on the side. She was not rocking the boat. Only after D-day 1 did the sex stop and the boat start to rock. It was at that point she was considering her options, should she leave to be with other man, would other man have her?

I don't really know what the situation is and neither does Road. His wife still could be knee deep in the affair, boffing other man in the back of his car at lunch every other week when he comes on one of his frequent visits. Or she really could be recommitted to the marriage.

My best guess is that she still loves the other man, but other man wouldn't give up his family and possibly his career to be with her, and now she is trying to do her best to get back in Road's good graces, though she's not willing to give the truth yet.

There is a lot that is uncertain. In my experience, when you don't know what's going on, sometimes the best move is no move - until you can figure out what is going on.

Road is all over the place right now, and seems on the verge of self-destructing. He just went without any plan to the other man's work conference, where he would at best come off looking like a nut case and at worst get himself arrested.

If Road's wife leaves the job in 2-3 weeks as he has projected, then that will be a sign in favor of reconciliation. If not, then it might be time to force the issue.

There is nothing wrong with threatening divorce if she doesn't come clean and if she doesn't leave the job, as a matter of fact, I think that it's the way to go, it saves a lot of wasted time, and if she is going to decide to stay and work it out, these couple of weeks of delay aren't going to make any difference, the result is going to be the same now or later, so might as well get it over with now.

But Road is not willing to do that, seems to be imploding, and maybe it's just better if he backs off and sees if she follows through with leaving the job. We all have to go at what speed we're comfortable with, it is Road's life and he will have to live with the consequences of his own actions.

Whatever Road does, I hope he picks a path and sticks with it. The rollercoaster of up one day and down the next is not good for him, not good for saving his marriage, and not good for his kids.


----------



## JCD

harrybrown said:


> You are putting alot of effort into this marriage.
> 
> You sent her an email with heart and feeling.
> 
> So how did she respond? and how quickly did she respond?
> 
> Where is this marriage in her priority? and she is still in contact with her AP!


He had to send this email TWICE. That says all we need to know.


----------



## 6301

56 pages and how many months now and what has happened? From what I read from this thread is a wife that refuses to move off of square one and nothing short of a stick of dynamite up her ass is going to make her budge.

56 pages and a husband who by now a shell of himself because he's in a situation where he refuses to draw a line in the sand and drop the hammer. 

Friend. it's time you either $h!t or get off the pot. If she is unwilling to come clean and give you the information you need to put this nightmare away, then it's about time you try another approach. You have been playing the stick and the carrot thing with her except minus the stick. Why the hell are you so afraid of her?

Wanna get her ass in gear? Go get a lawyer, file for divorce, have her selfish inconsiderate ass served at work and tell her to move the hell on because your through with her and her behavior and when you do it you make sure that the look on your face shows her that you mean what you say and say what you mean.

Stop playing games with her because honestly, your not good enough to play the kind of game she's playing. She's eating you alive and your letting her bite by bite.


----------



## aug

Road Scholar said:


> Sorry, to clarify, she did NOT know I was going there in advance but called me while I was there so I told her where I was.
> 
> If you're implying she told him, it wasn't possible since she did not know.
> 
> *Oh and my other arrest was from 20 years ago, when I was a real hothead*.


What happened to you? Where did that hothead go? What changed you? You seemed so opposite now...


----------



## Thor

Will_Kane said:


> Something is not right with the situation. If she's as sorry and wants to "prove it by her actions" as much as Road says she keeps saying she does, she would have given up the majority of the truth by now.
> 
> I would understand a little bit of trickle truth, I don't think any of us ever gets 100% truth, but Road has like 25% truth when, if wife is really that sorry, he should have 90% plus by now. Road and his wife both are very educated, expressive people. They both know how to get their points across. How could his wife not see what is needed here is some truth?


Because she knows the truth is really bad. At least it is very bad in comparison to what Road currently knows, and compared to what she thinks his deal breaker is.

And, my guess is that she isn't sure how much he knows and she doesn't want to get caught in a lie. If she starts to give him data and he catches her in blatant lies, she knows the marriage is toast.

So, she sees the least risk strategy to be saying nothing about the past.


----------



## Thor

Will_Kane said:


> Consider offering her amnesty if she'll give you the truth.


I disagree. Amnesty may get him the truth but then it puts him in a bind of having to R. In other words, he has given her a free pass on her transgressions.

I would suggest a promise to make a good faith effort at R for the next 90 days in exchange for the full truth. Of course there is no way to know if he is getting any truth at all if she admits to anything.

The other half of the discussion with her is that he knows he currently has incomplete data, and her failure to fully participate in R means R is not possible.


----------



## Thor

The more time goes by, the less likely it is she will give full truth. She will start thinking she is going to succeed at not giving him a complete timeline. There is no motivation to tell him the truth at some time in the future.


----------



## JCD

My first thoughts were to go full snark. Here it is because I think it has a trickle of truth in it: 

Road Scholar, you have two posts.

One: this is what I want.

Two: These are the excuses I am telling you about why I am not getting what I want.

"She is not giving me X...but she's crying" "She refuses to discuss blah...but she ACTS like she wants to stay."

Hum!

**

However...IIRC, you have a history of violence.

AND...you've said that you start 'going off on her' so all she is triggering is 'is he going to hit me again?' So this gives me pause to just calling her someone who does not have a rational reason to avoid these conversations.

I would be upset too. Kids cry before they get spanked. They KNOW they are going into a situation where they are about to feel pain and they want to avoid it.

I believe I advised you to do the timeline in a safe place. One where she felt that she would not be subject to your rages. Go to an MC session where she laid out some truth and then you spend the weekend with your mother or something so you have time to cool down.

Maybe this would make a difference...but from what it sounds like, probably not.

**

Let's break down this whole 'save my marriage' pap. Your marriage is dead. She killed it. What you once had is gone. The magic romantic naïve little thing you had for 20 years is no longer.

Get used to this fact.

NOW...you CAN continue the marriage, but it will have to be a whole new thing with new rules, assumptions and activities. The fact that the legal process of being married continues does not change the fact that the marriage as a bond is broken and needs to be reforged, not have some duct tape put on some links to keep things together for now.

**

Stop being so damned a) needy and b) violent.

**

Here is an option and I am not sure this is a good idea. But it offers your wife AN option. Here is the conversation. Unlike your letter, it is pithy, direct and no nonsense.

"You say you will do anything to 'fix' this marriage. Fine. I told you...and you continue to not do it. I have to pull these things out of you like teeth. Is that 'anything'? It is not.

If you are worried about my violent temper, you can write it out and I'll take it somewhere and read it. So this is no longer an excuse. I expect names, places, dates, amounts of time and some basic details. I'll have a list of questions of things you said to each other and you will answer them honestly. So being afraid of me is no longer an excuse. 

You will get blanket amnesty. Nothing you say can justify a divorce IF you are honest. BUT...if I get a SINGLE fact, or some other little revelation, like an abortion that you don't disclose, or Vegas marriage plans, I WILL divorce you. If it's written down, it's no longer 'actionable'. So write it ALL down.

OR...there is another option. I will not ask you another question. Not one. I don't care about the details. I won't want to know the details. You get a free pass on EVER discussing this again.

Right now, all you have are wonderful happy memories of this POS. You risked and hurt your MARRIAGE, your REPUTATION, your JOB, my LIFE and our kids FUTURE. But you get to remember lying in bed next to him teasing his nipple after a wonderful night of sex. The coffees together where you teased each other. It is a nice comfort to fall back on as you instead deal with this horror of a marriage that you helped create. 

Well, you don't get to keep them. YOU need to figure out a way to put a stake through that relationship so finally, that I NEVER need to worry about you returning to him. When Cortez landed in America, he burned his ships. There was only one way to go forward with NO looking back. You don't get a fall back anymore. You choose the family or this guy.

And if you choose this second option, I HAVE to be there. Whether it's telling his wife personally a blow by blow of your affair with hurtful details OR sending an Email to human resources outlining your affair, I have to see it or press the send button. See, your word is no good anymore. You have no 'credit' to fall back on. It's all cash on the barrel head from here on out. Any trust I give you is a gift which should be cherished. It is no longer you due.

You have two weeks"


That two weeks is to allow you to nut up enough to actually file.

If anyone can see holes in this, PLEASE point them out. She needs to feel a ticking clock.


----------



## tom67

JCD said:


> My first thoughts were to go full snark. Here it is because I think it has a trickle of truth in it:
> 
> Road Scholar, you have two posts.
> 
> One: this is what I want.
> 
> Two: These are the excuses I am telling you about why I am not getting what I want.
> 
> "She is not giving me X...but she's crying" "She refuses to discuss blah...but she ACTS like she wants to stay."
> 
> Hum!
> 
> **
> 
> However...IIRC, you have a history of violence.
> 
> AND...you've said that you start 'going off on her' so all she is triggering is 'is he going to hit me again?' So this gives me pause to just calling her someone who does not have a rational reason to avoid these conversations.
> 
> I would be upset too. Kids cry before they get spanked. They KNOW they are going into a situation where they are about to feel pain and they want to avoid it.
> 
> I believe I advised you to do the timeline in a safe place. One where she felt that she would not be subject to your rages. Go to an MC session where she laid out some truth and then you spend the weekend with your mother or something so you have time to cool down.
> 
> Maybe this would make a difference...but from what it sounds like, probably not.
> 
> **
> 
> Let's break down this whole 'save my marriage' pap. Your marriage is dead. She killed it. What you once had is gone. The magic romantic naïve little thing you had for 20 years is no longer.
> 
> Get used to this fact.
> 
> NOW...you CAN continue the marriage, but it will have to be a whole new thing with new rules, assumptions and activities. The fact that the legal process of being married continues does not change the fact that the marriage as a bond is broken and needs to be reforged, not have some duct tape put on some links to keep things together for now.
> 
> **
> 
> Stop being so damned a) needy and b) violent.
> 
> **
> 
> Here is an option and I am not sure this is a good idea. But it offers your wife AN option. Here is the conversation. Unlike your letter, it is pithy, direct and no nonsense.
> 
> "You say you will do anything to 'fix' this marriage. Fine. I told you...and you continue to not do it. I have to pull these things out of you like teeth. Is that 'anything'? It is not.
> 
> If you are worried about my violent temper, you can write it out and I'll take it somewhere and read it. So this is no longer an excuse. I expect names, places, dates, amounts of time and some basic details. I'll have a list of questions of things you said to each other and you will answer them honestly. So being afraid of me is no longer an excuse.
> 
> You will get blanket amnesty. Nothing you say can justify a divorce IF you are honest. BUT...if I get a SINGLE fact, or some other little revelation, like an abortion that you don't disclose, or Vegas marriage plans, I WILL divorce you. If it's written down, it's no longer 'actionable'. So write it ALL down.
> 
> OR...there is another option. I will not ask you another question. Not one. I don't care about the details. I won't want to know the details. You get a free pass on EVER discussing this again.
> 
> Right now, all you have are wonderful happy memories of this POS. You risked and hurt your MARRIAGE, your REPUTATION, your JOB, my LIFE and our kids FUTURE. But you get to remember lying in bed next to him teasing his nipple after a wonderful night of sex. The coffees together where you teased each other. It is a nice comfort to fall back on as you instead deal with this horror of a marriage that you helped create.
> 
> Well, you don't get to keep them. YOU need to figure out a way to put a stake through that relationship so finally, that I NEVER need to worry about you returning to him. When Cortez landed in America, he burned his ships. There was only one way to go forward with NO looking back. You don't get a fall back anymore. You choose the family or this guy.
> 
> And if you choose this second option, I HAVE to be there. Whether it's telling his wife personally a blow by blow of your affair with hurtful details OR sending an Email to human resources outlining your affair, I have to see it or press the send button. See, your word is no good anymore. You have no 'credit' to fall back on. It's all cash on the barrel head from here on out. Any trust I give you is a gift which should be cherished. It is no longer you due.
> 
> You have two weeks"
> 
> 
> That two weeks is to allow you to nut up enough to actually file.
> 
> If anyone can see holes in this, PLEASE point them out. She needs to feel a ticking clock.


I don't see any cracks

To get the truth, he has to be cool calm and dispassionate.

No guarantee she will though a show of not giving a sh!t on his part would go a long long way.

He would be surprised how others may notice.


----------



## lordmayhem

6301 said:


> 56 pages and how many months now and what has happened? From what I read from this thread is a wife that refuses to move off of square one and nothing short of a stick of dynamite up her ass is going to make her budge.
> 
> 56 pages and a husband who by now a shell of himself because he's in a situation where he refuses to draw a line in the sand and drop the hammer.
> 
> Friend. it's time you either $h!t or get off the pot. If she is unwilling to come clean and give you the information you need to put this nightmare away, then it's about time you try another approach. You have been playing the stick and the carrot thing with her except minus the stick. Why the hell are you so afraid of her?
> 
> Wanna get her ass in gear? Go get a lawyer, file for divorce, have her selfish inconsiderate ass served at work and tell her to move the hell on because your through with her and her behavior and when you do it you make sure that the look on your face shows her that you mean what you say and say what you mean.
> 
> Stop playing games with her because honestly, your not good enough to play the kind of game she's playing. She's eating you alive and your letting her bite by bite.


:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

Limbo is hell, and he's definitely living in limbo.


----------



## tom67

lordmayhem said:


> :iagree: :iagree: :iagree:
> 
> Limbo is hell, and he's definitely living in limbo.


:iagree::iagree:


----------



## warlock07

TBH, I am not even sure the affair ended.

By holding on to her lies, she is not letting go. This often means that the affair did not end..

Maybe it is just about saving face in front of her family for her ? maybe the break is temporary lull that will soon resume after the storm(your divorce threats) has passed ?

RS, how do you think she will react if you ask her to come clean with her parents(especially her father). Would she actually do it if you asked ? Ask her and her answer would give you an insight of her state of mind.


----------



## omoplata

This forum goes to show you that men typically are more in love/infatuated with their wives than their wives are with them. They can drop your ass today and be over you and on to the next guy in a month. 

Yet the men on here will take cheating, humiliation, disrespect, etc., and still miss and want to reconcile with their former spouse. It's ****ing pathetic and it's an insult to the male gender. Grow a pair of balls. Stop empowering these ****ing sloots. Scorched earth policy.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: No sex after her affair...*



JCD said:


> My first thoughts were to go full snark. Here it is because I think it has a trickle of truth in it:
> 
> Road Scholar, you have two posts.
> 
> One: this is what I want.
> 
> Two: These are the excuses I am telling you about why I am not getting what I want.
> 
> "She is not giving me X...but she's crying" "She refuses to discuss blah...but she ACTS like she wants to stay."
> 
> Hum!
> 
> **
> 
> However...IIRC, you have a history of violence.
> 
> AND...you've said that you start 'going off on her' so all she is triggering is 'is he going to hit me again?' So this gives me pause to just calling her someone who does not have a rational reason to avoid these conversations.
> 
> I would be upset too. Kids cry before they get spanked. They KNOW they are going into a situation where they are about to feel pain and they want to avoid it.
> 
> I believe I advised you to do the timeline in a safe place. One where she felt that she would not be subject to your rages. Go to an MC session where she laid out some truth and then you spend the weekend with your mother or something so you have time to cool down.
> 
> Maybe this would make a difference...but from what it sounds like, probably not.
> 
> **
> 
> Let's break down this whole 'save my marriage' pap. Your marriage is dead. She killed it. What you once had is gone. The magic romantic naïve little thing you had for 20 years is no longer.
> 
> Get used to this fact.
> 
> NOW...you CAN continue the marriage, but it will have to be a whole new thing with new rules, assumptions and activities. The fact that the legal process of being married continues does not change the fact that the marriage as a bond is broken and needs to be reforged, not have some duct tape put on some links to keep things together for now.
> 
> **
> 
> Stop being so damned a) needy and b) violent.
> 
> **
> 
> Here is an option and I am not sure this is a good idea. But it offers your wife AN option. Here is the conversation. Unlike your letter, it is pithy, direct and no nonsense.
> 
> "You say you will do anything to 'fix' this marriage. Fine. I told you...and you continue to not do it. I have to pull these things out of you like teeth. Is that 'anything'? It is not.
> 
> If you are worried about my violent temper, you can write it out and I'll take it somewhere and read it. So this is no longer an excuse. I expect names, places, dates, amounts of time and some basic details. I'll have a list of questions of things you said to each other and you will answer them honestly. So being afraid of me is no longer an excuse.
> 
> You will get blanket amnesty. Nothing you say can justify a divorce IF you are honest. BUT...if I get a SINGLE fact, or some other little revelation, like an abortion that you don't disclose, or Vegas marriage plans, I WILL divorce you. If it's written down, it's no longer 'actionable'. So write it ALL down.
> 
> OR...there is another option. I will not ask you another question. Not one. I don't care about the details. I won't want to know the details. You get a free pass on EVER discussing this again.
> 
> Right now, all you have are wonderful happy memories of this POS. You risked and hurt your MARRIAGE, your REPUTATION, your JOB, my LIFE and our kids FUTURE. But you get to remember lying in bed next to him teasing his nipple after a wonderful night of sex. The coffees together where you teased each other. It is a nice comfort to fall back on as you instead deal with this horror of a marriage that you helped create.
> 
> Well, you don't get to keep them. YOU need to figure out a way to put a stake through that relationship so finally, that I NEVER need to worry about you returning to him. When Cortez landed in America, he burned his ships. There was only one way to go forward with NO looking back. You don't get a fall back anymore. You choose the family or this guy.
> 
> And if you choose this second option, I HAVE to be there. Whether it's telling his wife personally a blow by blow of your affair with hurtful details OR sending an Email to human resources outlining your affair, I have to see it or press the send button. See, your word is no good anymore. You have no 'credit' to fall back on. It's all cash on the barrel head from here on out. Any trust I give you is a gift which should be cherished. It is no longer you due.
> 
> You have two weeks"
> 
> 
> That two weeks is to allow you to nut up enough to actually file.
> 
> If anyone can see holes in this, PLEASE point them out. She needs to feel a ticking clock.


I see no holes and its very good. Two problems. 1) He won't send it because it puts a timeline on things and removes his excuses to continue procrastinating. 2) If he did find the intestinal fortitude to send it she won't care, won't comply and he won't enforce any consequences. She'll know that the lion is toothless.


----------



## davecarter

omoplata said:


> This forum goes to show you that men typically are more in love/infatuated with their wives than their wives are with them. They can drop your ass today and be over you and on to the next guy in a month.
> 
> Yet the men on here will take cheating, humiliation, disrespect, etc., and still miss and want to reconcile with their former spouse. It's ****ing pathetic and it's an insult to the male gender. Grow a pair of balls. Stop empowering these ****ing sloots. Scorched earth policy.


Pretty harsh...but I agree.
I was one of these guys until I got my head somewhat straight and got a TON of advice of the guys off this Forum.

I look back to June this year and think of myself, _"WTF was that guy?" _


----------



## Wazza

davecarter said:


> Pretty harsh...but I agree.
> I was one of these guys until I got my head somewhat straight and got a TON of advice of the guys off this Forum.
> 
> I look back to June this year and think of myself, _"WTF was that guy?" _


Your profile says separated, so I assume you didn't get back together.

What changed in your behaviour as you got your head straight, and what difference did it make in your situation?


----------



## Wazza

omoplata said:


> This forum goes to show you that men typically are more in love/infatuated with their wives than their wives are with them. They can drop your ass today and be over you and on to the next guy in a month.
> 
> Yet the men on here will take cheating, humiliation, disrespect, etc., and still miss and want to reconcile with their former spouse. It's ****ing pathetic and it's an insult to the male gender. Grow a pair of balls. Stop empowering these ****ing sloots. Scorched earth policy.


Cannot agree. I have seen both genders do wrong and both genders suffer long mistreatment. 

There is a place for scorched earth sometimes but I don't think it is always appropriate.


----------



## davecarter

Wazza said:


> Your profile says separated, so I assume you didn't get back together.
> 
> What changed in your behaviour as you got your head straight, and what difference did it make in your situation?


Divorce going through without any real hiccups. We speak most days and I see her weekends when I see our kids.

I looked long and hard at myself, my wife, my marriage...and I realized I hadn't been 'in love' with her for a while, hence my neglectful attitude and behavior toward her.
When we separated and she subsequently started seeing her OM, I fell apart, buried my head in the sand and lamented on what I was losing.
But it was 'what' I was losing that confused me and scared me...


----------



## LongWalk

omoplata said:


> This forum goes to show you that men typically are more in love/infatuated with their wives than their wives are with them. They can drop your ass today and be over you and on to the next guy in a month.
> 
> Yet the men on here will take cheating, humiliation, disrespect, etc., and still miss and want to reconcile with their former spouse. It's ****ing pathetic and it's an insult to the male gender. Grow a pair of balls. Stop empowering these ****ing sloots. Scorched earth policy.


Male and female infidelity are different. Men are wired to get a little on the side and want their primary relationship to remain intact. Sperm is small investment by the selfish gene. Women want sex, but they also want an emotional connection with sex.

So for BS in general the trends are different. I have read veteran posters say that WAW/WW seldom reconcile while a significant percentage of men return to their BS. Herein lies a partial explanation for the Road Scholar type husbands who do not just kick their cheating wives to the curb. They don't want to be dumped. They hate having their lives taken away.

Women left by their husband feel enormous pain, but on TAM their threads do not attract much attention or sympathy in comparison with male victims of infidelity. Life ain't fair.

RS, sorry for the thread jack. Your situation is both simple and complex. You love your wife. She is not a weak or superficial person, so her affair is a deep critique of you as man and husband. You are not that person anymore. Your wife sees and appreciates that. She has done you wrong.

I would want to know why she kept the affair going. What was going through her mind. I would also want to know what was going on before it started, when it started and when she saw that had to end. She has gone through a process. She ought to share that journey with you.

It has everything to do with your confidence in the future. For her there must have been many critical moment of hope, joy, pleasure, panic, disillusion, sadness, etc. you want to know about this. Does she know everything about the process on your side. More certainly but not everything.

She can see you drifting on the current of your emotions towards D. Tell her that the current is driven by things outside your conscious control. She actually affects the river upon which your marriage is drifting. The timeline is not risk free, but it may stop the course that is now on.

Again, once the kids are in bed. Tonight give 10 blank sheets of paper and tell her to start writing. No threats or discussion are really necessary. Just tell her there is too much you don't know.

As others have noted, it was not a ONS.

Put the OM on Cheaterville. Shortly after he goes up he will feel that his life sucks. People in the company will begin to say he is an a hole. Even though it will cause your wife enormous unpleasantness as well, her colleagues will note that she is not divorced. If she feels close to someone and tells them that the two of you are fighting for your marriage, she may feel that the worst is over.

*May I add that I don't believe in a scorched earth policy. If you love your wife and tell her that you are dealing this the best you can, the earth is not scorched. She cannot think that if you are having sex with her.

Also, RS, given what you have gone through so far and your fighting spirit, I believe in you. You may end up divorcing but that will only be because you become convinced that your wife's passion for you will never be adequate. I don't think she knows herself 100% at this point.*


----------



## JCD

LongWalk said:


> Tonight give 10 blank sheets of paper and tell her to start writing. No threats or discussion are really necessary. Just tell her there is too much you don't know.
> [/B]


This


----------



## 6301

Better yet. Why don't you give her 10 minuets to pack up and get out while you still have some sanity.


----------



## Wazza

davecarter said:


> Divorce going through without any real hiccups. We speak most days and I see her weekends when I see our kids.
> 
> I looked long and hard at myself, my wife, my marriage...and I realized I hadn't been 'in love' with her for a while, hence my neglectful attitude and behavior toward her.
> When we separated and she subsequently started seeing her OM, I fell apart, buried my head in the sand and lamented on what I was losing.
> But it was 'what' I was losing that confused me and scared me...


Sorry for your situation.

This is why I zoomed in on your post. My observation is that scorched earth is more prevalent among those who divorce than those who reconcile. I think in taking different people's ideas on board, it is useful for RS to know some background on their situations and values.


----------



## Wazza

LongWalk said:


> Again, once the kids are in bed. Tonight give 10 blank sheets of paper and tell her to start writing. No threats or discussion are really necessary. Just tell her there is too much you don't know.


Something like this is a good idea. Maybe ask her to set the evening aside, then give her the paper and go out.

I agree about no threats or discussion. I would make the comment to her that she says she will do anything, yet despite repeated requests she has not done this. I would observe it is obvious she has not come completely clean. But I would not discuss either of these points. Just make the comments, tell her that you need her to do this, then give her the time alone to do it. 

Should she not comply, I would then refuse to accept her word when she says "I will do whatever it takes." I would not get angry, I would just say "please don't say that when we both know it isn't true". Don't reassure her. 

Some of the standard advice that you get on TAM is to focus on yourself a bit, and I think that would be good. Commit some time to an interest that doesn't include her. Work out. Get some exercise. Let her feel that she cannot take you for granted. Let her see, as she refuses to come clean, that distance is growing.

Then you find out whether she cares.....if she does, all good. If not, sad, but better to know.


----------



## husbandfool

eeeewwwhhhh!


----------



## JCD

Wazza said:


> Something like this is a good idea. Maybe ask her to set the evening aside, then give her the paper and go out.
> 
> *I agree about no threats or discussion. I would make the comment to her that she says she will do anything, yet despite repeated requests she has not done this.* I would observe it is obvious she has not come completely clean. But I would not discuss either of these points. *Just make the comments, tell her that you need her to do this, then give her the time alone to do it. *
> 
> *Should she not comply, I would then refuse to accept her word when she says "I will do whatever it takes." I would not get angry, I would just say "please don't say that when we both know it isn't true". Don't reassure her. *
> 
> Some of the standard advice that you get on TAM is to focus on yourself a bit, and I think that would be good. Commit some time to an interest that doesn't include her. Work out. Get some exercise. Let her feel that she cannot take you for granted. Let her see, as she refuses to come clean, that distance is growing.
> 
> Then you find out whether she cares.....if she does, all good. If not, sad, but better to know.


This is really the minimum that you need to do. However, and I say this sympathetically, there is no way in Hell you will do this because it is a line in the sand. You would rather make yourself believe that tears mean a lot more than they do.

Because so far I have seen her do NOTHING

Let's do a bullet point summary, okay?

-She has not GIVEN a timeline. You have had to *extract* it grain by grain and buddy, platinum is easier to extract.

-She is quitting 'any day now'. Sure she is.

-She has NOT gone No Contact. She has, in fact, asked you if it would be okay to go to a team building exercise with that POS there "but I PROMISE not to see him there." As you noted, if she is quitting, why is she working so hard on her career HERE? Maybe it was face saving, or maybe not.

-He comes into her work area and you have justifiable doubts if she tells you every time he 'just stops by'.

I am not trying to exacerbate your fears and doubts. However these things should add up. I get that she isn't over this guy...but she needs to make a better good faith effort!

This isn't it. When my wife asks a question, I answer it. Period. I may frame it in a less hurtful way, but I answer it. Right then. Right there.


----------



## tom67

JCD said:


> This is really the minimum that you need to do. However, and I say this sympathetically, there is no way in Hell you will do this because it is a line in the sand. You would rather make yourself believe that tears mean a lot more than they do.
> 
> Because so far I have seen her do NOTHING
> 
> Let's do a bullet point summary, okay?
> 
> -She has not GIVEN a timeline. You have had to *extract* it grain by grain and buddy, platinum is easier to extract.
> 
> -She is quitting 'any day now'. Sure she is.
> 
> -She has NOT gone No Contact. She has, in fact, asked you if it would be okay to go to a team building exercise with that POS there "but I PROMISE not to see him there." As you noted, if she is quitting, why is she working so hard on her career HERE? Maybe it was face saving, or maybe not.
> 
> -He comes into her work area and you have justifiable doubts if she tells you every time he 'just stops by'.
> 
> I am not trying to exacerbate your fears and doubts. However these things should add up. I get that she isn't over this guy...but she needs to make a better good faith effort!
> 
> This isn't it. When my wife asks a question, I answer it. Period. I may frame it in a less hurtful way, but I answer it. Right then. Right there.


:iagree:
Just the facts the rest is up to you.


----------



## harrybrown

Sorry RS, but she is still in the affair.

Do you have a VAR in place? She has somehow taken the affair underground. You can not watch her at work. 

She is still seeing him and hiding it from you.

She will never give you the timeline. She is sorry she was caught, not remorseful over the pain she is causing you.

I thought the affair was over, she kept it up at work. I could not and still can not monitor her work communications.

I am sorry, but until she gets out of the job, and has consequences, what will she do at the next job(if she does leave)? 

She has taken this underground somehow at work. She has admitted seeing him. Did she have sex with him at lunch? 

I am the world's biggest fool, but my WW kept it going thru work.

Your WW and mine still see us as a backup plan. She is number 1, the POSOM is number 2 and maybe I am number 4 or 5, because there are many men in the world. She is not the person you thought she was, you are trying to hold on to the dream/ fantasy that you were married to someone wonderful.

Surprise to me and to you that we were in the land of the unicorns.


----------



## bfree

RS is still in denial. The same denial that led to his first false reconciliation. Whether she is actively in the affair or not it makes little difference. He won't take steps to kill it outright preferring to trust his wife. Actually he is an easy man to please. A few tears and some token sex and he's a happy guy again. She could do this for years until she is finally ready to dump him, the loyal spouse, because she would prefer someone with a backbone. And when I say a backbone that does not equate to a temper. See those behaviors come from the same place....fear. A man who is confident and strong doesn't display a temper. He handles his business with decisiveness and resolution. RS is afraid of losing his wife so he will rattle his saber in a token manner until he feels she is tired of it. He believes that people should want to be nice to him. He believes that if he is a good man that his wife will want to love him. We all know that these are prototypical "Nice Guy" beliefs and will only end up costing RS everything he holds dear. The reason I say it doesn't matter if his wife is still actively in the affair or not is because she doesn't respect RS and is not attracted to him. Her OM took what he wanted. He showed strength and demonstrated with action he is a MAN. Why would she want to leave her job and stop seeing him every day? What we are seeing here is just a slow agonizing death of a marriage that could have been saved but was allowed to bleed to death by a husband that refused to take action to save it. I'm sorry if that seems harsh RS but your situation has played out hundreds of times on TAM and it always ends the same way.


----------



## carpenoctem

RS:

*The timeline you ask for is past tense in your mind. In her life, it could be present continuous, *and hence, untenable to articulate at the moment.

You have created as much fracas as she THINKS / PRESUMES you will create, over this issue. Now, whether more sordid details are revealed later, or even if it becomes evident later that she continued the affair underground for a while, you are not going to create too much more trouble (in her estimation) than now. *So, why not eke a little more dopamine out of the affair, and then, restart the Reconciliation effort afterwards, to please the sulking husband (you)?*


*Unless she knows and BELIEVES she has to choose you or lose you, *she might not show much more accountability to you.

She is not taking you as seriously as she should, in sum.

*Only a real probability of Divorce might re-precipitate the wife in her.

Or, to your surprise, you might find her signing it without as much protestation as you expect –* whether or not the OM takes her in.

In which case, well, is it worth anyway?


----------



## jim123

RS

Read the three strikes thread and the Devestated Dad threads.

Her head does want you and she is telling you what she hopes is the truth.

The A is alive in her like a cancer. You need to kill the cancer. You need a time line and you need to expose. It is not only for you but for her.

Once she writes down all this and also need to communicate to someone else, the fantasy dies. She reads and thinks about what she became. That is the only way true R can happen.

At the same time you need to work on you. You will regret not being stronger down the road. It will never die because you will never heal. 
do not live with fear or regrets. Deal from strength.

Tell her to get out. Go see an attorney. Expose the affair. Start moving on. This has been a game for her with nothing but upside for her. Time for you to take care of you.


----------



## just got it 55

Honestly RS

Take a step back....... outside of yourself and re read this thread

What other conclusion could you come to ?

What can kill you 

Will kill you


----------



## Road Scholar

I wanted to enter a quick post to my friends on TAM. I've been away for a couple weeks but still around reading up on 3rd Strike and other stories from this site. Still trying to educate myself.

We are still trying to R. Last post was that she purchased a spa day for me and my mom. We were having family get together afterwards and initially I told her I did not want her to be there. When she arrived with the kids fully expecting to drop them off I told her I wanted her to join us. I was pretty negative that Friday and Saturday and ran into someone that had just finalized a D that took 4 or 5 years after fighting it out in court and ruining him financially. I don't believe it would go that way with us in all honesty, but his advise was if you have someone willing to own their sh*t and work on things, then do it. Weird but I felt it was a sign.

It made her day. She was elated to be with my family that night.

She has been consistent with her efforts. She has demonstrated the same kind of remorse she has in the past verbally and with tears and affection. I don't know you guys, but it sure feels like real remorse. 

No written timeline but she did reveal the last date she was with him physically. It seems to check out and was not a date I was aware of. 

She has told me over and over that I will not regret giving her this chance and she will not F it up. She has told me how sorry she is for having hurt me over and over. She has told me how luck she feels to have another chance with me and will cherish me forever and make me happy. She tells me I deserve to be happy and she will do something everyday to make me happy. So far she has been pretty consistent 8 weeks after their last contact. She tells me how amazing I am, caring, kind, compassionate, sweet, thoughtful, loving, sexy,funny. She tells me I amaze her, etc. etc. She claims to be thankful everyday we are still together.

Like I said this all feels good. I don't get carried away with it though. I still have good days and bad. She is helpful and caring on my bad days. She reassures me that I never have to worry about that ever happening again. There has been NC. She feels no pull toward him at all like she did previously.

We are treating each other alot better since all this started. A different level of respect and caring. We had gotten to a place where we resented each other and took each other for granted. At times it was not very good at all. Almost apathetic to one another. Other times were better. If you look at our marriage as a roller coaster, were were near a low point. I always felt we'd pull out of it and end up at a high point again. Still felt there was love there but we were both just going along not focused on each other. We are now focusing on us and being better to each other.

She has told me she feels like she loves me more now than she has ever before and it sorta feels that way too based on her actions. I'm still guarded. I'm still lacking trust. But, I'm still in R and trying to get to the other side.

Thank you all. I will continue to read up on other stories and happy to take any and all suggestions and advise. 

-RS


----------



## harrybrown

If she really love you like she says, she would give you the timeline already.

Actions speak louder than words. Her lack of work on the timeline speaks volumes. 

You are getting the TT and will not heal this way. 

If she really cares at all about you, she will quit lying, give you the truth, and quit taking this underground. 

It is amazing that you met your friend that went thru the D.

Maybe that was a huge clue.

So was this last meeting one that you thought NC had already occurred? Did she do the std testing since this last "visit"?


----------



## Refuse to be played

Road Scholar said:


> I wanted to enter a quick post to my friends on TAM. I've been away for a couple weeks but still around reading up on 3rd Strike and other stories from this site. Still trying to educate myself.
> 
> We are still trying to R. Last post was that she purchased a spa day for me and my mom. We were having family get together afterwards and initially I told her I did not want her to be there. When she arrived with the kids fully expecting to drop them off I told her I wanted her to join us. I was pretty negative that Friday and Saturday and ran into someone that had just finalized a D that took 4 or 5 years after fighting it out in court and ruining him financially. I don't believe it would go that way with us in all honesty, but his advise was if you have someone willing to own their sh*t and work on things, then do it. Weird but I felt it was a sign.
> 
> It made her day. She was elated to be with my family that night.
> 
> She has been consistent with her efforts. She has demonstrated the same kind of remorse she has in the past verbally and with tears and affection. I don't know you guys, but it sure feels like real remorse.
> 
> No written timeline but she did reveal the last date she was with him physically. It seems to check out and was not a date I was aware of.
> 
> She has told me over and over that I will not regret giving her this chance and she will not F it up. She has told me how sorry she is for having hurt me over and over. She has told me how luck she feels to have another chance with me and will cherish me forever and make me happy. She tells me I deserve to be happy and she will do something everyday to make me happy. So far she has been pretty consistent 8 weeks after their last contact. She tells me how amazing I am, caring, kind, compassionate, sweet, thoughtful, loving, sexy,funny. She tells me I amaze her, etc. etc. She claims to be thankful everyday we are still together.
> 
> Like I said this all feels good. I don't get carried away with it though. I still have good days and bad. She is helpful and caring on my bad days. She reassures me that I never have to worry about that ever happening again. There has been NC. She feels no pull toward him at all like she did previously.
> 
> We are treating each other alot better since all this started. A different level of respect and caring. We had gotten to a place where we resented each other and took each other for granted. At times it was not very good at all. Almost apathetic to one another. Other times were better. If you look at our marriage as a roller coaster, were were near a low point. I always felt we'd pull out of it and end up at a high point again. Still felt there was love there but we were both just going along not focused on each other. We are now focusing on us and being better to each other.
> 
> She has told me she feels like she loves me more now than she has ever before and it sorta feels that way too based on her actions. I'm still guarded. I'm still lacking trust. But, I'm still in R and trying to get to the other side.
> 
> Thank you all. I will continue to read up on other stories and happy to take any and all suggestions and advise.
> 
> -RS


Haven't kept up with this situation for awhile so I'm a little bit out of the loop.

What she's been saying is lovely and all but.......what has she done? She still hasn't given you a timeline. Is she still working with him? How is the job hunt going? Oh and what actions have been taken against the OM? Have you considered a post nup? Has she taken any steps towards R on her own without prompting from you?

Also what do you have in place to monitor? Keylogger, VARs, gps, spy apps? Not trying to discourage you from R but she burned you once and you need to be sure. They always say trust but verify here. Just make sure dude.


----------



## CASE_Sensitive

Sorry if this is already buried in the thread, but has O/M been posted to cheaterville with his pic yet?


----------



## Nucking Futs

She hasn't given you the timeline or quit her job. She's all talk and no action. You've got her just where she wants you. 

It sucks to see you being so blatantly manipulated and so blindly falling for it.


----------



## Road Scholar

The job process is pretty long and drawn out but it is nearing its completion. It is high level job in a smaller company. They are being very thorough. She should know if she has it in a couple weeks. All the feedback is that she is the frontrunner. It is taking longer than anticipated but is a big step up, significant pay increase, big title, etc. Not that I really care about that but the timing was such that this came along at the time she needed to be looking and so has pursued it.

What spy apps would you recommend? VAR in car suggests no contact. I wish it really was voice activated. Digital recorder is what I have. There is one recording I would like to clean up any advise as to how? The road noise is really bad and it's difficult to make out the conversation.

Not posted yet on cheaterville. Can any legal action be taken against me? I believe his wife is an attorney. She knows about the A. Doubt she is doing much about it. I sent multiple letters to his house and neighbors to notify. She was quite rude to me on the phone and sent me a letter basically telling me to back off.


----------



## walkonmars

Road Scholar said:


> ...There is one recording I would like to clean up any advise as to how? The road noise is really bad and it's difficult to make out the conversation.


try audacity -- just download the file and use this free program to filter out road noises. It's pretty awesome. My son uses it to filter out wind and such from his videos. 


Audacity | DownloadInfo - We Review Software!




Road Scholar said:


> ... Can any legal action be taken against me? I believe his wife is an attorney. ..


Anyone can sue anyone for anything in this country. An aggressive person posted to cheatreville could go after you for libel. 

BUT truth is a defense. It's not likely that someone who is guilty and belongs there will have a legal leg to stand on. Of course I'm no lawyer. 

Here's what 3 lawyers had to say re possible repercussions: 

*Lawyer 1: _"You might be sued, but whether or not the suit is Successful is another matter. Truth is a defense."_

*Lawyer 2: _"You can always be sued, but the truth is a defense to either of these potential claims."_

*Lawyer 3 (a response to a cheater wanting to sue for being placed on cheaterville and accused of passing STDs):
_" The first thing you may want to consider is to ask the poster to take it down. If that doesn't work, you could file a claim for defamation and libel per se. However, with lawsuits like that, you open your entire personal life up for investigation, because the opposing side's defense is that the statement is either an opinion, or based in truth.

As such, depending on the circumstances, the opposing side may be able to dig into your past regarding any person with whom you had a sexual encounter, and then ask that person if they have or received an STD. Moreover, anything printed in a law suit is public record and there is an absolute privilege and a right to reproduce and distribute anything written in a law suit without repercussions - EVEN IF THEY DO IT WITH MALICE OR BAD INTENT.

So in the end, a lawsuit regarding defamation is risky because it could publicize the issue worse than it is now and it would cost quite a bit in legal fees. "_

I was posted on cheaterville with claims that I gave someone an std. - Avvo.com


----------



## Road Scholar

Great insight on both audacity and legal perspective. 

I actually tried the cheaterville post but for some reason it didn't work.


----------



## Chaparral

Re the timeline. I would think that she is afraid of what you would do if she told the truth. On the other hand, you already think she met him a lot more than she has admitted. If that is a deal breaker, tell her so and proceed to divorce. If you are comfortable with the way things are going you may just assume the worst and accept it. She may be incapable of saying something she thinks will destroy her.

I would consider telling her that you have to assume the worst or she would not be hiding things.

Other that, things sound as well as can be expected in R.

Remember, trust but verify, and that is true infidelity or not.


----------



## Will_Kane

Road Scholar said:


> I was pretty negative that Friday and Saturday
> 
> No written timeline but she did reveal the last date she was with him physically. It seems to check out and was not a date I was aware of.
> 
> There has been NC. She feels no pull toward him at all like she did previously.
> 
> We had gotten to a place where we resented each other and took each other for granted.
> 
> She has told me she feels like she loves me more now than she has ever before and it sorta feels that way too based on her actions.


Your negativity and giving her a hard time about the timeline probably have played a part in her remorseful demeanor. The natural progression would be that you become less and less negative and give her less and less of a hard time as she re-builds your trust in her through her behavior.

The written timeline in and of itself is not that important. It is important that you feel you know enough of the truth so that you later don't wonder what the real truth is, and that you are not blindsided when other facts come out in the future, like they inevitably do. When those facts leak out, you want them to be small facts, not huge ones. That's one of the main points of the timeline - to get all of the truth out there so that once you start feeling good and positive about the reconciliation, some huge thing doesn't come out and de-rail everything. Get the painful truths out now and deal with it.

Taking each other for granted is a common theme in cheating stories. Is there a couple who have been married for 10 plus years with kids who have not, at one point or another, taken each other for granted?

I can believe that she feels more in love with you than ever before, or at least since your earliest days together, well before marriage. The reason, I believe, is that she has not felt this close to losing you since those very early days in your relationship, when she wondered if you would be "the one" for her. Because of your willingness to possibly divorce, she was able to realize what she was losing, stop taking you for granted. 

I am going to guess that she has had contact with other man since D-day which has left a big negative impression on her as to his true colors, thus her realizing how much better a man you are than him. Even more likely, maybe, is that she has in fact had no contact with him, and THAT - the fact that he didn't reach out to her, or even actively avoided her, so he could save his own ass at work - showed her what a coward and a liar he was, and how much better you are than him.

Leaving the job remains important. It is the rare man who can watch the wife who cheated on him go off to work at the same company as other man, where the affair occurred, and not have enough daily anxiety, anger, and resentment to kill any reconciliation, even if she does go no contact with him. It's one less thing to worry about, one less source of future annoyance and aggravation.


----------



## Will_Kane

Chaparral said:


> Re the timeline. *I would think that she is afraid of what you would do if she told the truth*. On the other hand, you already think she met him a lot more than she has admitted. If that is a deal breaker, tell her so and proceed to divorce. *If you are comfortable with the way things are going you may just assume the worst and accept it. She may be incapable of saying something she thinks will destroy her.*
> 
> I would consider telling her that you have to assume the worst or she would not be hiding things.
> 
> *Other that, things sound as well as can be expected in R*.
> 
> Remember, trust but verify, and that is true infidelity or not.


I think this is pretty much on the money.


----------



## Wazza

Will_Kane said:


> I think this is pretty much on the money.


Agree. Pretty much what I did and it worked for me.

Sad though....coming clean would have removed some little niggles. Just have to live with them.


----------



## warlock07

I think RS will shortly get the "I love both of you.."(negative Nancy here)

For now, I think she just changed tactics. She knows RS won't buy her old act anymore. Genuine or just guilt motivated, he will find it out soon....


----------



## barbados

Is she still withholding sex ?


----------



## LongWalk

Her infatuation for OM may have ended. I would consider Cheaterville, something very factual without emotion. Let his wife be angry at the humiliation.

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


----------



## Road Scholar

barbados said:


> Is she still withholding sex ?


No, for the last 8 weeks the sex has been good and frequent. Prior to that I was on ice for 5 months during a false R. I am still checking and challenging that this one is real. I am being assurred every step of the way. With I love you's and I need you's. 

Keeping my eyes out for evidence that would suggest otherwise. I'm sure there is guilt and shame. I also feel there is remorse. Time will tell.


----------



## Road Scholar

warlock07 said:


> I think RS will shortly get the "I love both of you.."(negative Nancy here)
> 
> For now, I think she just changed tactics. She knows RS won't buy her old act anymore. Genuine or just guilt motivated, he will find it out soon....


Warlock your advise has been invaluable, but I really hope you are wrong. But, you have far greater experience with this than I do.

What actions on her part do you feel would prove true remorse and love for me?


----------



## Thor

Road Scholar said:


> What actions on her part do you feel would prove true remorse and love for me?


Her actions over time will either be consistent with true remorse, or she will slip up and do something which reveals her inner self is not truly remorseful.

For me, my wife slipped up and it showed me that she is still who she was. She intentionally perpetrated a fairly elaborate and serious deception. It was proof that her basic template never changed of what is acceptable behavior. She still believes lies are acceptable, and she believes it is ok to deceive her husband about important events.

I don't think there is any one thing a WW can do which proves once and for all she is honestly remorseful. Over time you will see a pattern of remorse, a pattern of open honesty, and you'll see from her body language and facial expressions that she has come to dislike what she did in the past. You will learn over time to trust her more.


----------



## warlock07

RS, you thread reminds me of poppoppop 's thread. Which is why I post my passive aggressive posts in your thread. that ended as a disaster with the WW openly dating the OM now.

And your wife keeps lying. She never gave you the complete truth. It is like pulling out teeth from her. Why should it be so hard ? You gave her benefit of doubt so many times that it is bordering on ridiculous. It is like you invested all you money on a single stock and you refuse to listen to the bad new or being overly optimistic just out of blind faith.

And did you read any of DevastatedDad, MrMathias, B1(EI), RefusedtobePlayed,'s threads ?(Just the one's I remember from the top of my head). The WS of these men also post on CWI. Read them. While every R is different, I think you can see some common themes that helped the BS too.



> What actions on her part do you feel would prove true remorse and love for me?


Consistent actions that help you over a long period of time. 

Like I said in one of my earlier posts, I am not sure if she is reconciling out of love or if she is scared that she will be outed to her family. It is like you are reconciling under the threat of blackmail. She might be more worried about her image , shame and judgement she will have to face rather than love for you.

Did you discuss exposing to her family(esp her dad ?) Do you think you can do it and still reconcile ? How do you think she will react ?


----------



## Refuse to be played

poppoppop's thread should serve as an example of what could happen when you don't nuke a work place affair.

And honestly I find it ridiculous that RS has had to ask more than once for a timeline. 

And even if the affair is really over and she isn't coming out with all the details out of fear RS will leave her she is still being selfish. She is still putting herself and her best interest ahead of RS.


----------



## hopefulgirl

Chaparral said:


> Re the timeline. I would think that she is afraid of what you would do if she told the truth. On the other hand, you already think she met him a lot more than she has admitted.


Of course she's afraid. And there probably is more to tell.

I posted this here a couple weeks ago (from Shirley Glass' book NOT Just Friends):

"It is a challenge to construct a disclosure process that unfolds rather than explodes. Traumatic reactions will make it hard for the injured partner to act rationally and with self-control. Fear of consequences will make it hard for the involved partner to be open."

I mentioned how early on I tried to get info from my husband and we had a few calm discussions, most discussions were extremely tense, but some were just disastrous. 

MC didn't start until just recently, and we are working on creating a sense of safety in our marriage for BOTH of us. We are breaking down our patterns into parts, and learning how to recognize how easy it is for things to escalate, on both sides. We can't deal with such LOADED stuff until we can repair US sufficiently and learn new skills and make it safe for us both to tackle this ugly, ugly stuff. He hates the facts, he knows I will be crushed at hearing them, and we have to have a whole new set of skills to delve into that dark place of lies and betrayal and furtive sex in motels. (I've already told him I don't want sex details, but discussing the lies he told me is painful enough for him.) 

We aren't even supposed to talk about it outside of the counselor's office because of the potential to do further damage while we're still on shaky ground as we're both still learning how to communicate better. 

People can choose to do it on their own, and demand the facts from their spouses without the help of a professional with expertise in helping couples deal with infidelity - but when the BS and WS are both in pain, and you've decided you want to try R, I think it's better to do this with empathy and experienced professional support. Yes, BS's need the information. How you go about getting it is important.

Frankly, so much of the advice you're getting is coming from people who are comfortable with the notion of marriage where the husband is the captain and the wife is just the first officer - apparently it's OK for the captain to demand information from the first officer. This advice isn't based on experience in helping hundreds of couples in therapy for infidelity, as is Shirley Glass' advice. She promotes repairing the couple first (in the meantime, lifting the lid off a little bit and getting some of the details out) and THEN when it TRULY feels safe, it's essential for the BS to get the story of the affair.


----------



## harrybrown

Yes it takes time to get to the heart of the matter.

When your heart has been ripped out and thrown into the fire, sometimes you have to put out the fire and get the heart beating again. If the WS keeps lying, you can not get to working on the couple, until the heart starts beating again.

It sounds like your spouse may be trying to help more than others, and in your situation, it will work better than other situations where the WS is not helpful at getting the heart started again.


----------



## Nucking Futs

hopefulgirl said:


> Of course she's afraid. And there probably is more to tell.
> 
> I posted this here a couple weeks ago (from Shirley Glass' book NOT Just Friends):
> 
> "It is a challenge to construct a disclosure process that unfolds rather than explodes. Traumatic reactions will make it hard for the injured partner to act rationally and with self-control. Fear of consequences will make it hard for the involved partner to be open."
> 
> I mentioned how early on I tried to get info from my husband and we had a few calm discussions, most discussions were extremely tense, but some were just disastrous.
> 
> MC didn't start until just recently, and we are working on creating a sense of safety in our marriage for BOTH of us. We are breaking down our patterns into parts, and learning how to recognize how easy it is for things to escalate, on both sides. We can't deal with such LOADED stuff until we can repair US sufficiently and learn new skills and make it safe for us both to tackle this ugly, ugly stuff. He hates the facts, he knows I will be crushed at hearing them, and we have to have a whole new set of skills to delve into that dark place of lies and betrayal and furtive sex in motels. (I've already told him I don't want sex details, but discussing the lies he told me is painful enough for him.)
> 
> We aren't even supposed to talk about it outside of the counselor's office because of the potential to do further damage while we're still on shaky ground as we're both still learning how to communicate better.
> 
> People can choose to do it on their own, and demand the facts from their spouses without the help of a professional with expertise in helping couples deal with infidelity - but when the BS and WS are both in pain, and you've decided you want to try R, I think it's better to do this with empathy and experienced professional support. Yes, BS's need the information. How you go about getting it is important.
> 
> *Frankly, so much of the advice you're getting is coming from people who are comfortable with the notion of marriage where the husband is the captain and the wife is just the first officer - apparently it's OK for the captain to demand information from the first officer.* This advice isn't based on experience in helping hundreds of couples in therapy for infidelity, as is Shirley Glass' advice. She promotes repairing the couple first (in the meantime, lifting the lid off a little bit and getting some of the details out) and THEN when it TRULY feels safe, it's essential for the BS to get the story of the affair.


You're letting your own prejudices color your view of the advice he's getting. Take out husband as captain and wife as first officer and insert BS as captain of the R and WS as first officer. Most of us giving this advice are giving this advice the same way to BH's and BW's.


----------



## carmen ohio

Dear RS,

A few observations:



Road Scholar said:


> I wanted to enter a quick post to my friends on TAM. I've been away for a couple weeks but still around reading up on 3rd Strike and other stories from this site. Still trying to educate myself.
> 
> We are still trying to R. Last post was that she purchased a spa day for me and my mom. We were having family get together afterwards and initially I told her I did not want her to be there. When she arrived with the kids fully expecting to drop them off I told her I wanted her to join us. I was pretty negative that Friday and Saturday and ran into someone that had just finalized a D that took 4 or 5 years after fighting it out in court and ruining him financially. I don't believe it would go that way with us in all honesty, but his advise was if you have someone willing to own their sh*t and work on things, then do it. *Weird but I felt it was a sign. [I hope that you do not really believe in "signs" and are not basing your decisions on such silliness.]*
> 
> It made her day. She was elated to be with my family that night.
> 
> *She has been consistent with her efforts. She has demonstrated the same kind of remorse she has in the past verbally and with tears and affection. I don't know you guys, but it sure feels like real remorse. [I would also be inclined to believe that she is remorseful. Just be aware that there are plenty of examples on TAM/CWI of remorseful WSs who cheated again.]*
> 
> *No written timeline but she did reveal the last date she was with him physically. It seems to check out and was not a date I was aware of. [So, basically, she's still trickle-truthing you. Not good.]*
> 
> She has told me over and over that I will not regret giving her this chance and she will not F it up. She has told me how sorry she is for having hurt me over and over. She has told me how luck she feels to have another chance with me and will cherish me forever and make me happy. *She tells me I deserve to be happy and she will do something everyday to make me happy. [But she will not do what you've asked her to do -- give you a timeline of her affair.]* So far she has been pretty consistent 8 weeks after their last contact. * She tells me how amazing I am, caring, kind, compassionate, sweet, thoughtful, loving, sexy,funny. [Two points here: First, these are just words. Second, these are descriptions of a beta male -- you would be better off if she perceived you as more alpha, i.e., **confident, self-reliant, **assertive, inspiring, etc.] She tells me I amaze her, etc. etc. She claims to be thankful everyday we are still together. [Of course she is thankful. She cheated on you twice and you are still with her. The question is, what do you have to be thankful about?]*
> 
> Like I said this all feels good. I don't get carried away with it though. I still have good days and bad. She is helpful and caring on my bad days. * She reassures me that I never have to worry about that ever happening again. [Hopefully, you are not buying this.] There has been NC. She feels no pull toward him at all like she did previously.** [Again, these are just words. Do you have evidence to back up her claims?]*
> 
> We are treating each other alot better since all this started. A different level of respect and caring. We had gotten to a place where we resented each other and took each other for granted. At times it was not very good at all. Almost apathetic to one another. Other times were better. If you look at our marriage as a roller coaster, were were near a low point. I always felt we'd pull out of it and end up at a high point again. Still felt there was love there but we were both just going along not focused on each other. We are now focusing on us and being better to each other.
> 
> She has told me she feels like she loves me more now than she has ever before and it sorta feels that way too based on her actions. I'm still guarded. I'm still lacking trust. But, I'm still in R and trying to get to the other side.
> 
> Thank you all. I will continue to read up on other stories and happy to take any and all suggestions and advise.
> 
> -RS


Let's assume that everything you say and believe about her is true. That's good but, in the long run, may not be enough. As I commented a few weeks ago, unless and until she tells you everything you want to know about her affair, you are left in the dark about what really happened between your WW and the OM. Maybe she's told you most of it or maybe there's a lot more that you don't know. Hence my reason for saying in my previous post:

_"Eventually, you must decide whether you can live with not knowing everything that happened between your WW and the OM. If you can, then settling for TT may work for you. Just be aware that you will likely be haunted for a long time, maybe for the rest of your life, with questions and doubts about the extent of her betrayal, how deeply she loved him and why she returned to you.

"Even if the two of you manage to smooth over your marital problems in the short term, there are numerous threads on TAM/CWI that indicate that most BSs can neither heal completely nor genuinely forgive the WS without learning the truth. It is for this reason that most posters, myself included, believe that your R will be significantly more difficult and may ultimately fail if she doesn't tell you everything you want to know."_

I really hope that things work out well for you and your family. I just have a bad feeling that, a year or two from now, you will be back saying you wish you had listened to the advice many people here have given you to insist on full disclosure.


----------



## Chaparral

hopefulgirl said:


> Of course she's afraid. And there probably is more to tell.
> 
> I posted this here a couple weeks ago (from Shirley Glass' book NOT Just Friends):
> 
> "It is a challenge to construct a disclosure process that unfolds rather than explodes. Traumatic reactions will make it hard for the injured partner to act rationally and with self-control. Fear of consequences will make it hard for the involved partner to be open."
> 
> I mentioned how early on I tried to get info from my husband and we had a few calm discussions, most discussions were extremely tense, but some were just disastrous.
> 
> MC didn't start until just recently, and we are working on creating a sense of safety in our marriage for BOTH of us. We are breaking down our patterns into parts, and learning how to recognize how easy it is for things to escalate, on both sides. We can't deal with such LOADED stuff until we can repair US sufficiently and learn new skills and make it safe for us both to tackle this ugly, ugly stuff. He hates the facts, he knows I will be crushed at hearing them, and we have to have a whole new set of skills to delve into that dark place of lies and betrayal and furtive sex in motels. (I've already told him I don't want sex details, but discussing the lies he told me is painful enough for him.)
> 
> We aren't even supposed to talk about it outside of the counselor's office because of the potential to do further damage while we're still on shaky ground as we're both still learning how to communicate better.
> 
> People can choose to do it on their own, and demand the facts from their spouses without the help of a professional with expertise in helping couples deal with infidelity - but when the BS and WS are both in pain, and you've decided you want to try R, I think it's better to do this with empathy and experienced professional support. Yes, BS's need the information. How you go about getting it is important.
> 
> Frankly, so much of the advice you're getting is coming from people who are comfortable with the notion of marriage where the husband is the captain and the wife is just the first officer - apparently it's OK for the captain to demand information from the first officer. This advice isn't based on experience in helping hundreds of couples in therapy for infidelity, as is Shirley Glass' advice. She promotes repairing the couple first (in the meantime, lifting the lid off a little bit and getting some of the details out) and THEN when it TRULY feels safe, it's essential for the BS to get the story of the affair.


This isn't a gender issue. It doesn't matter which partner cheats, the advice for reconciliation is the same. However, from what I have read, R is about three times more likely if the husband cheats than if the wife cheats. Why is that? Its because men and women ARE different.


----------



## aug

RS failure to insist on the timeline is his way of rugsweeping, is it not?


----------



## LongWalk

RS,

When she most receptive to honest discussion? What sort of conversations do you have after making love? Do you fear that you are reclaiming her through sex without becoming honest?

After having good sex could you ask her if she understands your desire for disclosure?

On TAM there is a analogy about an incomplete puzzle for BS.

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


----------



## 3putt

LongWalk said:


> On TAM there is a analogy about an incomplete puzzle for BS.


I believe you're talking about Joseph's Letter.....



> To Whomever,
> 
> I know you are feeling the pain of guilt and confusion. I understand that you wish all this never happened and that you wish it would just go away. I can even believe that you truly love me and that your indiscretion hurts you emotionally much the same way it hurts me. I understand your apprehension to me discovering little by little, everything that led up to your indiscretion, everything that happened that night, and everything that happened afterwards. I understand. No one wants to have a mistake or misjudgment thrown in his or her face repeatedly.
> 
> No one wants to be forced to 'look' at the thing that caused all their pain over and over again. I can actually see, that through your eyes, you are viewing this whole thing as something that just needs to go away, something that is over, that he/she doesn’t mean anything to you, so why is it such a big issue? I can understand you wondering why I torture myself with this continuously, and thinking, doesn’t he/she know by now that I love him/her? I can see how you can feel this way and how frustrating it must be. But for the remainder of this letter I’m going to ask you to view my reality through my eyes.
> 
> You were there. There is no detail left out from your point of view. Like a puzzle, you have all the pieces and you are able to reconstruct them and be able to understand the whole picture, the whole message, or the whole meaning. You know exactly what that picture is and what it means to you and if it can effect your life and whether or not it continues to stir your feelings. You have the pieces, the tools, and the knowledge.
> 
> You can move through your life with 100% of the picture you compiled. If you have any doubts, then at least you’re carrying all the information in your mind and you can use it to derive conclusions or answers to your doubts or question. You carry all the 'STUFF' to figure out OUR reality. There isn’t really any information, or pieces to the puzzle that you don’t have.
> 
> Now let’s enter my reality. Let’s both agree that this affects our lives equally. The outcome no matter what it is well affect us both. Our future and our present circumstances are every bit as important to me as it is to you. So, why then is it okay for me to be left in the dark? Do I not deserve to know as much about the night that nearly destroyed our relationship as you do? Just like you, I am also able to discern the meaning of certain particulars and innuendoes of that night and just like you, I deserve to be given the opportunity to understand what nearly brought our relationship down.
> 
> To assume that I can move forward and accept everything at face value is unrealistic and unless we stop thinking unrealistically I doubt our lives well ever 'feel' complete. You have given me a puzzle. It is a 1000 piece puzzle and 400 random pieces are missing. You expect me to assemble the puzzle without the benefit of looking at the picture on the box. You expect me to be able to discern what I am looking at and to appreciate it in the same context as you. You want me to be as comfortable with what I see in the picture as you are.
> 
> When I ask if there was a tree in such and such area of the picture you tell me don’t worry about it, it’s not important. When I ask whether there were any animals in my puzzle you say don’t worry about it, it’s not important. When I ask if there was a lake in that big empty spot in my puzzle you say, what’s the difference, it’s not important.
> 
> Then later when I’m expected to understand the picture in my puzzle you fail to understand my disorientation and confusion. You expect me to feel the same way about the picture as you do but deny me the same view as you. When I express this problem you feel compelled to admonish me for not understanding it, for not seeing it the way you see it.
> 
> You wonder why I can’t just accept whatever you chose to describe to me about the picture and then be able to feel the same way you feel about it.
> 
> So, you want me to be okay with everything. You think you deserve to know and I deserve to wonder. You may honestly feel that the whole picture, everything that happened is insignificant because in your heart you know it was a mistake and wish it never happened. But how can I know that? Faith? Because you told me so? Would you have faith if the tables were turned? Don’t you understand that I want to believe you completely? But how can I? I can never know what is truly in your mind and heart.
> 
> I can only observe you actions, and what information I have acquired and slowly, over time rebuild my faith in your feelings. I truly wish it were easier.
> 
> So, there it is, as best as I can put it. That is why I ask questions. That is where my need to know is derived from. And that is why it is unfair for you to think that we can effectively move forward and unfair for you to accuse me of dwelling on the past. My need to know stems from my desire to hold our world together.
> 
> It doesn’t come from jealousy, it doesn’t come from spitefulness, and it doesn’t come from a desire to make you suffer. It comes from the fact that I love you. Why else would I put myself through this? Wouldn’t it be easier for me to walk away? Wouldn’t it be easier to consider our relationship a bad mistake in my life and to move on to better horizons? Of course it would, but I can’t and the reason I can’t is because I love you and that reason in itself makes all the difference in the world.
> 
> -Joseph


----------



## sidney2718

RS:

Adding my two cents here. I don't think you can have a true R while you have unanswered questions. You may have buried them for now but they will crawl out in time.

Unanswered questions lead to serious trust issues. You can only regain trust when you know that she's not doing the sort of thing she did before, and if you don't know what she did before, you are in deep do-do.

I am not saying that she is not sincere. She may indeed be trying to avoid upsetting you even more. But you won't regain trust that way, and trust is, I think, the major issue in any reconcilliation.


----------



## Wazza

sidney2718 said:


> RS:
> 
> Adding my two cents here. I don't think you can have a true R while you have unanswered questions. You may have buried them for now but they will crawl out in time.
> 
> Unanswered questions lead to serious trust issues. You can only regain trust when you know that she's not doing the sort of thing she did before, and if you don't know what she did before, you are in deep do-do.
> 
> I am not saying that she is not sincere. She may indeed be trying to avoid upsetting you even more. But you won't regain trust that way, and trust is, I think, the major issue in any reconcilliation.


You can. I know because I did. But yes there are trust issues. There would have been anyway. If she will have an affair and lie about it once she may he capable of doing so again. Of course she may also be capable of learning from her mistake and be an even better risk for the future.

It's only with hindsight you can know.....


----------



## sidney2718

Wazza said:


> You can. I know because I did. But yes there are trust issues. There would have been anyway. If she will have an affair and lie about it once she may he capable of doing so again. Of course she may also be capable of learning from her mistake and be an even better risk for the future.
> 
> It's only with hindsight you can know.....


Of course you are right, but I do believe that not knowing makes it more difficult.


----------



## Wazza

sidney2718 said:


> Of course you are right, but I do believe that not knowing makes it more difficult.


It is the source of the vast majority of the ongoing issues. So yes, you are right.


----------



## wilderness

Wazza said:


> It is the source of the vast majority of the ongoing issues. So yes, you are right.


May I ask a question, Wazza?
Why not make it totally intolerable for her to continue withholding the truth from you? If I were you I would be asking questions the second that I walked in the door until the time I went to bed. Make it impossible for her to continue doing the same thing she has been doing.


----------



## Wazza

wilderness said:


> May I ask a question, Wazza?
> Why not make it totally intolerable for her to continue withholding the truth from you? If I were you I would be asking questions the second that I walked in the door until the time I went to bed. Make it impossible for her to continue doing the same thing she has been doing.


Affair was many years ago, had no support, no information, had to find my own way. She would lie, I would catch her out, in a cycle. In the end I gave up. I was staying for the kids.

Over years we rebuilt. I became convinced of her remorse and commitment. Went with that. 

Thing is, it is so long ago there is no way to verify much any more. So I wouldn't know if she had told the truth. She possibly has by now, but I cannot check it.


----------



## WyshIknew

Wazza said:


> Affair was many years ago, had no support, no information, had to find my own way. She would lie, I would catch her out, in a cycle. In the end I gave up. I was staying for the kids.
> 
> Over years we rebuilt. I became convinced of her remorse and commitment. Went with that.
> 
> Thing is, it is so long ago there is no way to verify much any more. So I wouldn't know if she had told the truth. She possibly has by now, but I cannot check it.


And if it was long ago there is no hope of an 'electronic trail' unlike nowadays.

Although Facebook, emails and text may facilitate affairs that might never have happened, they make confirming them and discovering how deep the affair went easier. Not that it makes it any better I suppose.


----------



## Wazza

WyshIknew said:


> And if it was long ago there is no hope of an 'electronic trail' unlike nowadays.
> 
> Although Facebook, emails and text may facilitate affairs that might never have happened, they make confirming them and discovering how deep the affair went easier. Not that it makes it any better I suppose.


Well before all that stuff. 1990.

Thing is, as two people who want to be married, we both suffered out of what happened, but the damage is done. You can only move forwards.

And we did grow as a couple out of it. 

But I am it advising our course for others. If I could exchange if I would.


----------



## WyshIknew

Wazza said:


> Well before all that stuff. 1990.
> 
> Thing is, as two people who want to be married, we both suffered out of what happened, but the damage is done. You can only move forwards.
> 
> And we did grow as a couple out of it.
> 
> But I am it advising our course for others. If I could exchange if I would.


About the same time as all my 'stuff'.

I'll never know what happened, if anything.

I wish I knew.

Yep my screen name!


----------



## ThePheonix

3putt said:


> I believe you're talking about Joseph's Letter.....


Sounds like a overly needy guy who baby's himself. Why not just assume his spouse got the full Monty, which is more than likely, and quit wringing your hands about whether you got "all the truth". You can never be certain anyway.


----------



## wilderness

Wazza said:


> Affair was many years ago, had no support, no information, had to find my own way. She would lie, I would catch her out, in a cycle. In the end I gave up. I was staying for the kids.
> 
> Over years we rebuilt. I became convinced of her remorse and commitment. Went with that.
> 
> Thing is, it is so long ago there is no way to verify much any more. So I wouldn't know if she had told the truth. She possibly has by now, but I cannot check it.


Lie detector. 

Yes, you may not be able to get every last detail, but you'll probably be able to confirm more than you have now.


----------



## Wazza

WyshIknew said:


> About the same time as all my 'stuff'.
> 
> I'll never know what happened, if anything.
> 
> I wish I knew.
> 
> Yep my screen name!


I know enough. They kissed, they made out, she was seeing him behind my back, they spent the night together.

I know the affair is long dead, and she is more lying from shame and fear of my reaction than anything else. And how tragic if she has told me the truth and I don't believe her.

I assume a few things she denied happened. After this long I know her character, including the circumstances where she is likely to lie, and I will stake a lot on her being, overall, a person of great tact and integrity. She just hates confrontation and has a massively overdeveloped sense of tact.

The problem is it was a crap shoot. I didn't think about the future, just got through raising the kids, and then looked at what we had after they were adults, and had to decide whether to stay with it. Fortunately it worked out, but if not I would have been in an awkward position.


----------



## Wazza

ThePheonix said:


> Sounds like a overly needy guy who baby's himself. Why not just assume his spouse got the full Monty, which is more than likely, and quit wringing your hands about whether you got "all the truth". You can never be certain anyway.


I know this looks logical, but price is a lot of angst. Nowhere near as simple as whether they did the full Monty.

And the overly needy guy stuff is crap. Anyone who goes into a committed relationship with someone they can trust. The affair violates that. You have to figure out what, if anything, you have left.


----------



## Wazza

wilderness said:


> Lie detector.
> 
> Yes, you may not be able to get every last detail, but you'll probably be able to confirm more than you have now.


Absolutely not.

If you read up on their accuracy it is not good. And sorry, but the idea is distasteful. If that is where I am I would rather divorce.


----------



## 3putt

Wazza said:


> Absolutely not.
> 
> If you read up on their accuracy it is not good. And sorry, but the idea is distasteful. If that is where I am I would rather divorce.


But, Wazza, it's not about you. It's about the wants of any OP. Our job isn't to push off onto others what we would do under the same circumstances. Our job is to provide assistance and information they don't have to get them to a point where they can make their own decisions.

Polys aren't distasteful, nor are they perfect. But what they have done is provide more parking lot confessions than I would even care to begin to count. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. But until we have a better way at getting to the real story, then I'll keep recommending them.

That being said, aside from all the negative articles you've read from people who claim to be in the know, just how much do you really know about polys? The way I see it is if a poly is good enough for the FBI, CIA, and the US Military, then it's good enough for me to at least have a chance to getting some of the truth or perhaps tripping the WS into confessing beforehand.

If you (or others) have a better way, then I'm all ears. But discouraging people from doing all they can to get what they need simply because you don't personally subscribe to the methods that we suggest, well then, I find _that_ distasteful.

Polys have worked many, MANY times around here and other places as well. I just find it odd that the ones that are so vocally against them have never suggested even one alternate solution.

Be my guest to be the first though. Personally, I'd love to hear it.

Seriously, I would, because I'm getting tired of defending one of the few tools we have, however accurate or inaccurate they may be, when that time could be better spent elsewhere....like trying to actually help someone with what _they_ want.


----------



## Wazza

3putt said:


> But, Wazza, it's not about you. It's about the wants of any OP. Our job isn't to push off onto others what we would do under the same circumstances. Our job is to provide assistance and information they don't have to get them to a point where they can make their own decisions.
> 
> Polys aren't distasteful, nor are they perfect. But what they have done is provide more parking lot confessions than I would even care to begin to count. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. But until we have a better way at getting to the real story, then I'll keep recommending them.
> 
> That being said, aside from all the negative articles you've read from people who claim to be in the know, just how much do you really know about polys? The way I see it is if a poly is good enough for the FBI, CIA, and the US Military, then it's good enough for me to at least have a chance to getting some of the truth or perhaps tripping the WS into confessing beforehand.
> 
> If you (or others) have a better way, then I'm all ears. But discouraging people from doing all they can to get what they need simply because you don't personally subscribe to the methods that we suggest, well then, I find _that_ distasteful.
> 
> Polys have worked many, MANY times around here and other places as well. I just find it odd that the ones that are so vocally against them have never suggested even one alternate solution.
> 
> Be my guest to be the first though. Personally, I'd love to hear it.
> 
> Seriously, I would, because I'm getting tired of defending one of the few tools we have, however accurate or inaccurate they may be, when that time could be better spent elsewhere....like trying to actually help someone with what _they_ want.


Wilderness actually directed the question at me, about my experiences, so my answer is about me. . But as input to RS. You will recommend them, you are free to do that. I wil not recommend them I am equally free.

And to me they are distasteful. But then a lot about infidelity is distasteful.

I'm not an expert but my understanding is they are at best 90% accurate,mand maybe as low as 60%. I don't regard those odds as good enough. Under some circumstances I might recommend the parking lot confession approach. I would never recommend taking a lie detector as solid evidence, and a non expert using it seems to me to be foolish. Better to accept you just cannot get the truth IMO.

Is that an alternate solution? Well some problems don't have a solution. However much you might want one.


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## 3putt

Wazza said:


> Wilderness actually directed the question at me, about my experiences, so my answer is about me. . But as input to RS. You will recommend them, you are free to do that. I wil not recommend them I am equally free.
> 
> And to me they are distasteful. But then a lot about infidelity is distasteful.
> 
> I'm not an expert but my understanding is they are at best 90% accurate,mand maybe as low as 60%. I don't regard those odds as good enough. Under some circumstances I might recommend the parking lot confession approach. I would never recommend taking a lie detector as solid evidence, and a non expert using it seems to me to be foolish. Better to accept you just cannot get the truth IMO.
> 
> Is that an alternate solution? Well some problems don't have a solution. However much you might want one.


Hell, who knows, but 60-90% accurate is 100% better than anything else we have to offer. I'm just saying that our belief on the accuracy, or the effectiveness of it, isn't up for us to decide. It's up to any OP out there.

And, like I said, until we have ANYTHING better to offer, then I just don't see the point in discouraging people from using it when it could be the only thing that stands between divorce and an attempt at reconciliation.

Now, before you say it, I know there's a thread on the board right now that supports your argument. But you've been around long enough to know that this is a much more rare occurrence than having a poly satisfy a BS's needs to get to the bottom of things.

It's up to the individual to decide if it's good enough or not.


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## Wazza

3putt said:


> Hell, who knows, but 60-90% accurate is 100% better than anything else we have to offer. I'm just saying that our belief on the accuracy, or the effectiveness of it, isn't up for us to decide. It's up to any OP out there.
> 
> And, like I said, until we have ANYTHING better to offer, then I just don't see the point in discouraging people from using it when it could be the only thing that stands between divorce and an attempt at reconciliation.
> 
> Now, before you say it, I know there's a thread on the board right now that supports your argument. But you've been around long enough to know that this is a much more rare occurrence than having a poly satisfy a BS's needs to get to the bottom of things.
> 
> It's up to the individual to decide if it's good enough or not.


I don't know the thread you refer to. But think about it.

It the worst case is true, 60% accuracy, and ten spouses suspect their innocent partners of infidelity, and use a polygraph, four of them will be falsely convicted of an infidelity they didn't commit. Four marriages ended by an error. Is that good odds? What if the accuracy rate is more like 90%? So only one innocent partner is falsely convicted. Is that ok?

Doing nothing is a real alternative. Just because you desperately want something doesn't mean it has to be possible.


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## theroad

A BH that goes 30 years without the whole truth will still be haunted by not knowing the answers to his questions.

It will leave him with trust issues for that time as well.


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## Thor

Wazza said:


> Absolutely not.
> 
> If you read up on their accuracy it is not good. And sorry, but the idea is distasteful. If that is where I am I would rather divorce.


I don't disagree with your side of it. However, I think a truly remorseful person would be open to all avenues and possibilities in order to make amends. No, we don't see it very often! Still, a truly remorseful WS who understands how deeply the BS needs to know the truth would come forth and offer to do the poly.

A large amount of time will provide good data that the WS is now trustworthy. I think if there is good communication and the the WS shows a good understanding of how/why the affair was permitted to happen then there is a good chance there will not be a repeat affair.

To me, the really difficult part is getting from the early days to that long time in the future. All that time in the middle with the doubts and triggers and mistrust. The WS could short circuit all of it by voluntarily going to a poly.


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## Thor

An alternate solution may be to use some chemical dis-inhibitors. Alcohol is the most well known. Start a good conversation which is positive and productive, and let the wine flow. Make sure WS drinks a lot more than BS does! Then turn the conversation towards needing closure on some things, and ask some non-threatening questions. When BS is comfortable talking about all of this, and has had enough alcohol to have a good buzz, ask the tougher questions in a non-threatening way.

There are rumors some anesthetics and anti-anxiety drugs used during medical procedures can have a strong dis-inhibiting affect, though they are not "truth serums". Still, such an opportunity may provide information. Though I would certainly never ask tough questions after a surgery for a serious condition such as cancer. That would be too unkind.


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## badmemory

I think the most over looked value of a polygraph; is the CS's willingness to take one. Excellent test of remorse if nothing else.

If they refuse - game over; you've got your answer.

If they agree - there's at least a reasonable chance that they will confess ahead of it.

If they don't confess and pass. Isn't that usually a good thing?

And if they don't confess and fail. At least you know there's better than a 50% chance they're lying. To me, that's better than not knowing at all.

What if they fail and actually aren't lying? I'm not a poly expert, but my understanding is that is very unlikely. That said, I think it's best to have reasonable evidence that there was at least an EA before using one.


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## bfree

The key to successful polygraphs is the correct questions and choosing the best and most reliable examiner. Also, when you schedule it you need to use the element of surprise as part of the pre test discovery. You don't tell him/her until last minute, preferably in the testing office parking lot. The surprise does two things. First it puts them on the defensive so that they panic and come clean. Second it gives them less time to prepare and the test tends to be a bit more reliable with less inconclusive responses.


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## Will_Kane

bfree said:


> The key to successful polygraphs is the correct questions and choosing the best and most reliable examiner. Also, when you schedule it you need to use the element of surprise as part of the pre test discovery. You don't tell him/her until last minute, preferably in the testing office parking lot. The surprise does two things. First it puts them on the defensive so that they panic and come clean. Second it gives them less time to prepare and the test tends to be a bit more reliable with less inconclusive responses.


Some good points here in favor of polys, and obviously they are not used by law enforcement if they are not useful.

Willingness to take one.
Last-minute (parking lot) confession.

Polygraphs measure physical body responses to questions, based on a baseline of questions to which an honest answer can be verified (name, date of birth, social, address, etc.). There are ways to beat it, but most involve obtaining an "inconclusive" result - can't tell if they are lying or telling the truth. This can be done, for instance, by putting a small rock in your shoe and stepping down hard on it when answering a question.

To really beat a polygraph, and to get a result that the truth was told when it really was a lie, is very rare.

Keep in mind, the circumstances under which the polygraph is given are key - the environment and especially the examiner.

Also, when you look at studies, they are not studies of "criminals" suspected of a crime, but just people being asked simple yes/no questions. The difference being, that when a suspect is questioned, there already is some amount of evidence in place, and MOST IMPORTANT, there are many other known "tells" - body language, gestures - that will give away a liar. You can look up what they are. There usually is more than one person observing the subject, looking for the "tells." Also, a lot is at stake (usually a conviction and a prison sentence), which leads to more "tells."

The polygraph is not a "stand-alone" tool. Its usefulness is that it is accurate (in the sense that it DOES measure a person's so-called "involuntary" physical reactions), but that in conjunction with that there is evidence, heightened anxiety, and investigators and interrogators who are trained to spot liars by body language and nervous mannerisms.

An experienced liar who is used to lying in such situations has a better chance of "beating" the polygraph, but usually has a long record, also.

Statistics show they are not very accurate because the studies done don't replicate the environment in which the polygraph really is used and also the studies focus solely on the polygraph result and not the OVERALL result (other things that give away lying and confessions).

As for their use to detect infidelity, I don't know.


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## ThePheonix

theroad said:


> A BH that goes 30 years without the whole truth will still be haunted by not knowing the answers to his questions.



If they flunk the poly you still won't have the "truth". I don't know why a man wants confirmation that she not only enjoyed it, but it was likely more exciting and/or she thinks of you as a dud. In the final analysis, there's a reason she went looking for a substitute for you. One certainty is that you ranked low one her romantic interest scale. 
Before you go asking too many question, you might ought to be sure you want to hear the answer. Its probable she not give you the full truth because she doesn't want to add insult to your obvious injured ego. You sure you want to hear, "he took me to places you never have and never will be able to reach"?


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## Wazza

Thing is, in this situation you are usually going to have a betrayed spouse who is hurting, desperate for closure and looking for a silver bullet. Not someone who is detached and rational, not someone who has expertise in the use of the technology. 

And they are going to be approaching an agency whose financial well being is built in selling the polygraph as a service. How often are they going to advise against it, recommend caution, or do anything else that might cost them a sale?

I see uses for the strategy, and the discussion here is good. It should help people make a more informed decision on usage.

Is it a solution. Well, bathing in sulphuric acid will probably clear up acne, but the side effects make it worth asking whether the solution is worse than the problem.

And that's from someone who knows what it is like to rebuild a marriage over decades without the full truth.


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## Will_Kane

ThePheonix said:


> If they flunk the poly you still won't have the "truth". I don't know why a man wants confirmation that she not only enjoyed it, but it was likely more exciting and/or she thinks of you as a dud. In the final analysis, there's a reason she went looking for a substitute for you. One certainty is that you ranked low one her romantic interest scale.
> Before you go asking too many question, you might ought to be sure you want to hear the answer. Its probable she not give you the full truth because she doesn't want to add insult to your obvious injured ego. You sure you want to hear, "he took me to places you never have and never will be able to reach"?


"Was other man better in bed than your husband?" is not the type of question the poly would help much with. The type of question where you could get a more definitive result would be very fact-based questions: Did you shoot John Doe? Were you inside John Doe's house? Those are the types of yes/no answers that work best - questions with no shades of gray, just yes/no, truth/lie type of questions - not, did you enjoy killing John Doe more than you enjoyed killing Joe Smith?

Is Road considering a poly for his wife? If she is not willing to tell him the number of times, when and where, it is unlikely she would agree to take a poly. For infidelity, a poly might be something to consider if the cheater is forthcoming with all answers, but the betrayed just doesn't believe the answers. For example, "I only kissed him once on the cheek, I guarantee you, it's the God's honest truth, I swear on the lives of our children and YOUR parents." Road's wife is not forthcoming, she is not swearing she is telling the truth, she is telling him certain facts but is not giving him a forceful statement that she has told the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. Once he gets that statement from her, if he still doesn't believe her, a poly might be something to consider.

In most of these threads, the cheater's lies don't make any sense in light of the facts that the betrayed partner does know, so a poly is not needed. For example, Road's wife denied him sex and was very distant with him for five months, then claimed she had no contact with other man during that time (then changed it to one hookup for sex, then two, and most recently I think she might have added a third time) - given the other factors, that she thought she was in love with other man and not with Road during this time - meeting up only three times in five months is theoretically possible, but not believable at all. She didn't preface her story with "I know you are not going to believe this, it sounds so ridiculous," as far as I know each time she told her story and each time she changed her story she told it as if it all made perfect sense and that Road should believe it, would have no problems believing it. My ears and common sense are the only lie detector I need for Road's wife.


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## ThePheonix

Will_Kane said:


> For example, Road's wife denied him sex and was very distant with him for five months, then claimed she had no contact with other man during that time (then changed it to one hookup for sex, then two, and most recently I think she might have added a third time) - given the other factors, that she thought she was in love with other man and not with Road during this time - meeting up only three times in five months is theoretically possible, but not believable at all.


What does she have to do, drive a truck over him for him to know its over? If she sez she's in love with the other guy, having sex with the other guy, (one time or greater) refusing and rejecting sex, how much more does it take before he says, "this ain't working". Any one of those would be a deal breaker for me. I assure you that when a woman loves or often times really likes you, she wants to have sex with you. Conversely when they don't want to have sex with you it mean your out my man. 
Am I wrong in formulating the opinion this chick no longer considers Roads her primary squeeze. What does he or anybody else think he's going to get out of keeping this vegetable of a marriage on life support. Getting her to admit to the truth ain't gonna make her realize, "hey, I'm really so in love with my husband that just thinking about him makes me wet my pants."


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## Will_Kane

ThePheonix said:


> I assure you that when a woman loves or often times really likes you, she wants to have sex with you. Conversely when they don't want to have sex with you it mean your out my man.
> Am I wrong in formulating the opinion this chick no longer considers Roads her primary squeeze."


She's having a lot of sex with Road now and is no longer distant and cold, just has been trickling out the truth about the affair. She says that something just clicked and she realized she never really was in love with other man, and she can appreciate Road so much more now. She also still works for same company as other man, same situation as existed during the affair, except she says she's not having contact with other man and has been looking for another job and appears close to getting one.

So some here think she's just putting up a front to keep Road on the hook until she's ready to move on and that she has taken the affair underground or put it on hold for a while and won't ever tell the full truth or get another job, that it's all just talk. Others here think she is out of the affair but is just too ashamed to admit the full truth yet and will leave the job soon. Road is taking a wait-and-see approach.


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## jack.c

His last post was about 4 days ago, his next one will probably be the most in 4 months with a new thread: I'NM BACK AGAIN AND IT HURTS!


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## treyvion

jack.c said:


> His last post was about 4 days ago, his next one will probably be the most in 4 months with a new thread: I'NM BACK AGAIN AND IT HURTS!


You know what DOESN'T hurt. Getting past these situations, not complaining about them and getting on with your life. Many times we have to replace/remove the people who have betrayed us.


----------



## ThePheonix

Will_Kane said:


> She's having a lot of sex with Road now and is no longer distant and cold, just has been trickling out the truth about the affair. She says that something just clicked and she realized she never really was in love with other man, and she can appreciate Road so much more now. She also still works for same company as other man, same situation as existed during the affair, except she says she's not having contact with other man and has been looking for another job and appears close to getting one.


Getting out from around of her boyfriend is not going to fix whatever problem that caused her to jump ship to begin with. As they say on Wall Street, "don't be impressed with one quarter of good earning after several quarter of losses". She's trickling the truth for a reason. I going to stay short on this one.


----------



## jack.c

treyvion said:


> You know what DOESN'T hurt. Getting past these situations, not complaining about them and getting on with your life. Many times we have to replace/remove the people who have betrayed us.



exactly.... its what he IS NOT doing.... thats why I'm convinced that he will be back with a new thread.


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## LongWalk

Polygraphs are not that reliable. Water boarding now that will get 100% of the truth and additional confession of sins unexecuted.

There are WS who by nature of personality will not spill the beans. They will not accept unconditional surrender even though they wish to save their marriage. RS's WW may be such a personality; he is not deficient in understanding. 

He thinks that a wife who has sex and treats him well is enough for the time being. After all getting her to have sex again was the goal of his thread. Let us congratulate him on his success.

Instead of being entirely skeptical, perhaps we could offer ideas on how he can get his wife to gain insight into his need for more information.

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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## tom67

LongWalk said:


> Polygraphs are not that reliable. Water boarding now that will get 100% of the truth and additional confession of sins unexecuted.
> 
> There are WS who by nature of personality will not spill the beans. They will not accept unconditional surrender even though they wish to save their marriage. RS's WW may be such a personality; he is not deficient in understanding.
> 
> He thinks that a wife who has sex and treats him well is enough for the time being. After all getting her to have sex again was the goal of his thread. Let us congratulate him on his success.
> 
> Instead of being entirely skeptical, perhaps we could offer ideas on how he can get his wife to gain insight into his need for more information.
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


He got great advice here from all angles.
I am not a big proponent of polygraphs I am much more for the THREAT of one the "parking lot confession" or the willingness or lack thereof to take one.
Guys all we can do is wish him the best and wait for an update.
Just my opinion.


----------



## Thor

LongWalk said:


> Instead of being entirely skeptical, perhaps we could offer ideas on how he can get his wife to gain insight into his need for more information.


He can do one of several things.

The polite way to handle it is to hand her one of the books on infidelity which explains it. This has been suggested to him already.

The more assertive way to handle it is for him to tell her with no wiggle room words that he needs certain things in order to move forward with the marriage, and here is the list written for her. This approach has been suggested to him.

The not so polite way, but perhaps the clearest, is to file for divorce and tell her that any chance of R requires certain things from her. D will continue in process. If enough progress is made before the D is finalized, the D can be put on hold. I believe this approach has already been suggested.

The one approach which won't work is the one of being a passive Nice Guy who asks her to please do it, but without any consequences if she does not.


----------



## Road Scholar

Will_Kane said:


> She's having a lot of sex with Road now and is no longer distant and cold, just has been trickling out the truth about the affair. She says that something just clicked and she realized she never really was in love with other man, and she can appreciate Road so much more now. She also still works for same company as other man, same situation as existed during the affair, except she says she's not having contact with other man and has been looking for another job and appears close to getting one.
> 
> So some here think she's just putting up a front to keep Road on the hook until she's ready to move on and that she has taken the affair underground or put it on hold for a while and won't ever tell the full truth or get another job, that it's all just talk. Others here think she is out of the affair but is just too ashamed to admit the full truth yet and will leave the job soon. Road is taking a wait-and-see approach.


That is correct WillKane. 

She very plainly doesn't want to talk about the affair. Says it's too painful to think about and wants to move on and look to our future together. She says when we focus on that on him we both end up feeling like crap. which is true, but also in my opinion part of the heavy lifting tough work. She want to continue to show love to each other and treat each other the way we have been these past few weeks. It has been a dramatic improvement. Prior to A, we took each other for granted and acted very negatively to each other AT TIMES. Not ALL THE TIME. So we are more respectful of each other and appreciative and thoughtful of one another.

She continues to say she hates what she did and it's hurts her to think about it. She continually tells me how wonderful I am. How thankful I am that I am giving her another chance and she will not screw it up. She says she is amazed at how great I have been blah, blah, blah. The sex is frequent and good.

My primary goal was not to get sex going again but to understand why during 5 months of what turned out to be a false R, I wasn't getting any. The good people here on TAM clued me in instantly, the affair wasn't over. DUH. I guess I really had my blinders on and even when there were signs I apparently missed them conciously or unconciously I guess. I was focused very hard on getting past my hurt and pain, partly due to guilt of my own prior shortcomings, partly becuase of my strong desire to keep my family in tact and together. I also can understand how people can lose their way and I have faith that they can turn things around and get back on track.

I do find it difficult to file for D when I want to save the M and she appears to be ready willing and able to work on it. She has told me things I did not know and I know pretty much all of it. They had a lot of sex. Clearly she enjoyed it. She did things with him that she refused to do with me - bj's. (she does now) She felt she loved him and has told him so. She probably fantasized about spending the rest of her life together with him. She felt happy and fulfilled with him. She was truly infatuated with him. It all hurts and it all sucks. I know I can do better. I can find someone that hasn't caused me this much pain. I know I can find someone where good feelings aren't followed by bitterness and pain. There are times I feel so good with her. There are times I am really hurt by what she did to me and then did to me again. I am hurt that she could knowingly do these things behind my back while pretending to be working on our marriage in MC. Having what I felt were meaningful conversations - pillow talk. She claims they were trying to end it. 

I am willing to try at least for now to keep my family together with the hopes that the anger fades, that the hurt heals, that our marriage can be restored and be better than it had been before. I want to walk away, if comes to it, that I did everything I could do to save it the M with my head held high - nice guy and all. I'm not a pushover as some people on TAM may take me for. I am firmly grounded on what's right and wrong. Huge family for support to lean on. Self sacrificing, maybe, as that was how I was raised in an Irish Catholic family with 13 kids and father a Chicago cop. We learned to put others first as kids. Not to be selfish or greedy. To think of others before we think of ourselves. Maybe in this world that's a bad thing. In the next I feel it will be rewarded. If I get screwed over again, her loss and can move on with my dignity and self respect in tact. A D spreads the pain around and complicates a lot of people's lives. I can take it all. If she wasn't here with me 100% I would not take but I feel she is here now.

Would I stay if it were just her and I and not two incredible kids? Probably not. But my life at this point is not just about me. I have a responsibility to protect my kids and I am trying to that and if I can end up with happier wife, happier marriage and make sense of the rubble she has created, well that would be fine too. At some point, if I'm miserable and there is no end in sight, I will make that call, but for now I see signs that things can improve. She is trying to own her sh*t best she can and I feel she is remorseful. As they say, time will tell.

Good news: The job update. All things are good. The offer should come next week! Great opportunity for us to start over.

I will post my timeline later this week so you all see what I know. I want to share it with her and make sure she knows what I know. I want to use that to walk her through the 7 months of hell she put me through. Punishment? Yeah maybe a little medicine. Thoughts.

Sorry for the long post. I get going and sometimes it's hard to stop. Happy Thanksgiving to all!


----------



## tom67

Road Scholar said:


> That is correct WillKane.
> 
> She very plainly doesn't want to talk about the affair. Says it's too painful to think about and wants to move on and look to our future together. She says when we focus on that on him we both end up feeling like crap. which is true, but also in my opinion part of the heavy lifting tough work. She want to continue to show love to each other and treat each other the way we have been these past few weeks. It has been a dramatic improvement. Prior to A, we took each other for granted and acted very negatively to each other AT TIMES. Not ALL THE TIME. So we are more respectful of each other and appreciative and thoughtful of one another.
> 
> She continues to say she hates what she did and it's hurts her to think about it. She continually tells me how wonderful I am. How thankful I am that I am giving her another chance and she will not screw it up. She says she is amazed at how great I have been blah, blah, blah. The sex is frequent and good.
> 
> My primary goal was not to get sex going again but to understand why during 5 months of what turned out to be a false R, I wasn't getting any. The good people here on TAM clued me in instantly, the affair wasn't over. DUH. I guess I really had my blinders on and even when there were signs I apparently missed them conciously or unconciously I guess. I was focused very hard on getting past my hurt and pain, partly due to guilt of my own prior shortcomings, partly becuase of my strong desire to keep my family in tact and together. I also can understand how people can lose their way and I have faith that they can turn things around and get back on track.
> 
> I do find it difficult to file for D when I want to save the M and she appears to be ready willing and able to work on it. She has told me things I did not know and I know pretty much all of it. They had a lot of sex. Clearly she enjoyed it. She did things with him that she refused to do with me - bj's. (she does now) She felt she loved him and has told him so. She probably fantasized about spending the rest of her life together with him. She felt happy and fulfilled with him. She was truly infatuated with him. It all hurts and it all sucks. I know I can do better. I can find someone that hasn't caused me this much pain. I know I can find someone where good feelings aren't followed by bitterness and pain. There are times I feel so good with her. There are times I am really hurt by what she did to me and then did to me again. I am hurt that she could knowingly do these things behind my back while pretending to be working on our marriage in MC. Having what I felt were meaningful conversations - pillow talk. She claims they were trying to end it.
> 
> I am willing to try at least for now to keep my family together with the hopes that the anger fades, that the hurt heals, that our marriage can be restored and be better than it had been before. I want to walk away, if comes to it, that I did everything I could do to save it the M with my head held high - nice guy and all. I'm not a pushover as some people on TAM may take me for. I am firmly grounded on what's right and wrong. Huge family for support to lean on. Self sacrificing, maybe, as that was how I was raised in an Irish Catholic family with 13 kids and father a Chicago cop. We learned to put others first as kids. Not to be selfish or greedy. To think of others before we think of ourselves. Maybe in this world that's a bad thing. In the next I feel it will be rewarded. If I get screwed over again, her loss and can move on with my dignity and self respect in tact. A D spreads the pain around and complicates a lot of people's lives. I can take it all. If she wasn't here with me 100% I would not take but I feel she is here now.
> 
> Would I stay if it were just her and I and not two incredible kids? Probably not. But my life at this point is not just about me. I have a responsibility to protect my kids and I am trying to that and if I can end up with happier wife, happier marriage and make sense of the rubble she has created, well that would be fine too. At some point, if I'm miserable and there is no end in sight, I will make that call, but for now I see signs that things can improve. She is trying to own her sh*t best she can and I feel she is remorseful. As they say, time will tell.
> 
> Good news: The job update. All things are good. The offer should come next week! Great opportunity for us to start over.
> 
> I will post my timeline later this week so you all see what I know. I want to share it with her and make sure she knows what I know. I want to use that to walk her through the 7 months of hell she put me through. Punishment? Yeah maybe a little medicine. Thoughts.
> 
> Sorry for the long post. I get going and sometimes it's hard to stop. Happy Thanksgiving to all!


The job aspect sounds good.
It's progress.


----------



## x598

> There are WS who by nature of personality will not spill the beans. They will not accept unconditional surrender even though they wish to save their marriage. RS's WW may be such a personality; he is not deficient in understanding.





> She very plainly doesn't want to talk about the affair. Says it's too painful to think about and wants to move on and look to our future together. She says when we focus on that on him we both end up feeling like crap. which is true, but also in my opinion part of the heavy lifting tough work. She want to continue to show love to each other and treat each other the way we have been these past few weeks. It has been a dramatic improvement. Prior to A, we took each other for granted and acted very negatively to each other AT TIMES. Not ALL THE TIME. So we are more respectful of each other and appreciative and thoughtful of one another.


this is exactly what my STBXW did.

she wanted to R. it took me a while to realize that she will never come clean. NEVER. i think partially she is/was deceiving HERSELF. i know there are other skeletons in the closet, just can prove it as i did with some of them.

the point is, its a REALLY LOUSY way to live. i walked around in pain and limbo. its like finding a cancer mole, having it cut out, and never getting the biopsy results to know if its spreading or you are OK.

your wife is being nice to you now, lots of sex, all the things you were missing. just understand that she is doing this becasue she got caught. this is the way she should be treating you beacuse she wants to. it will just slowy erode back to where you were. unless you can deal with the issues head on and not rug sweep anything, but i highly doubt thats possible with a spouse doing what yours is........


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## LongWalk

Very good. You have this well reasoned. Your need for more information can wait.

Did she explain to you how it felt for her to realize that her feelings for him were false or temporary? What made her come to? How did she struggle with feeling of not being in love with you? That must have been very uncomfortable for her.

I suppose she will always say she suddenly realized she loved you but in truth is was a process. I think learning more about that process, including the sexual aspect, is more important to you than knowing that she lied about something on a particular date.

Also, I would want to know more about her thinking about integrity and honesty. She must have felt that she was degrading herself morally. Is recover of that better self a motivation in remaining married to you?


----------



## aug

Road Scholar said:


> I do find it difficult to file for D when I want to save the M and she appears to be ready willing and able to work on it. *She has told me things I did not know and I know pretty much all of it. They had a lot of sex. Clearly she enjoyed it. She did things with him that she refused to do with me - bj's. (she does now) She felt she loved him and has told him so. She probably fantasized about spending the rest of her life together with him. She felt happy and fulfilled with him. She was truly infatuated with him. * It all hurts and it all sucks. I know I can do better. I can find someone that hasn't caused me this much pain. I know I can find someone where good feelings aren't followed by bitterness and pain. There are times I feel so good with her. There are times I am really hurt by what she did to me and then did to me again. I am hurt that she could knowingly do these things behind my back while pretending to be working on our marriage in MC. Having what I felt were meaningful conversations - pillow talk. She claims they were trying to end it.



Unfortunately for you, her good times with the OM are now deeply imprinted in her head. I doubt the exciting memories of the affair will ever be forgotten or erased. She has her fail-safe position.

I suppose you have a lot of thinking to do.


----------



## badmemory

Road Scholar said:


> There are times I feel so good with her. There are times I am really hurt by what she did to me and then did to me again.


RS,

I've been in your shoes. I understand where you're coming from.

But you need to make her understand something. Her wanting to put the past behind her and not talk about the A, no matter how remorseful she is otherwise; is rug sweeping. It's her avoiding deserved consequences. It's delaying if not preventing, your ability to get past this. It's selfish and self centered.

Can you R in this situation? Maybe - if she continues to show you love, affection, and is sexually open to you. But it's going to make it harder for you; because you'll continually resent that she wasn't willing to accept the full consequences of her actions. Perhaps that will fade in time.

If you can live with an "almost" remorseful spouse, fine. I wish you the best and a successful R.


----------



## x598

badmemory said:


> RS,
> 
> I've been in your shoes. I understand where you're coming from.
> 
> But you need to make her understand something. Her wanting to put the past behind her and not talk about the A, no matter how remorseful she is otherwise; is rug sweeping. It's her avoiding deserved consequences. It's delaying if not preventing, your ability to get past this. It's selfish and self centered.
> 
> Can you R in this situation? Maybe - if she continues to show you love, affection, and is sexually open to you. But it's going to make it harder for you; because you'll eventually resent that she wasn't willing to accept the full consequences of her actions.
> 
> If you can live with that, fine. I wish you a successful R.


:iagree: x1000


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## turnera

I'm glad that you're considering staying together for the kids.

I will posit, however, that since she's unwilling to discuss the affair, as it is too painful for HER, that she is not truly remorseful. Rather, she has thrown her lot in with you, as the best current prospect. Thus all the great sex. She's working you. (and apparently it's working)

If she weren't, she would be doing the 'hard' stuff.


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## Wazza

badmemory said:


> RS,
> 
> I've been in your shoes. I understand where you're coming from.
> 
> But you need to make her understand something. Her wanting to put the past behind her and not talk about the A, no matter how remorseful she is otherwise; is rug sweeping. It's her avoiding deserved consequences. It's delaying if not preventing, your ability to get past this. It's selfish and self centered.
> 
> Can you R in this situation? Maybe - if she continues to show you love, affection, and is sexually open to you. But it's going to make it harder for you; because you'll continually resent that she wasn't willing to accept the full consequences of her actions. Perhaps that will fade in time.
> 
> If you can live with an "almost" remorseful spouse. Fine. I wish you the best and a successful R.


I am never comfortable with all this talk of consequences. What level of consequences is enough?

If our wives have integrity, the knowledge of what they did is a consequence. The fact that the marriage is forever changed is a consequence.

I am more interested that my wife realises that she did wrong, and what she cannot do. Over the years I too have been tempted. I have not fallen, but maybe that is because I learned from her mistakes.

That said, your wife is setting things up for you to always have niggling doubts. I agree that this is rug sweeping, not because of consequences, but because you aren't being given the information you need to settle. I have no doubt she feels better not talking about it. My wife was the same. She felt (to some extent accurately) that I was punishing her.

The hardest part is it takes years to be reasonably sure if your wife's character again. I wil never be totally sure. But then, I am sure my wife is of better than average character and therefore a better than average risk. And I know her, I have a good understanding of her weaknesses. We can manage this.

I stayed for the kids. It worked out well for me. But I didn't have a plan. Were I to go back and advise myself, I would say....commit to the marriage emotionally (so you have the beat chance possible of a fulfilling relationship when the kids are gone. It's hard, but work in being friends first and grow from there.) Plan your finances on the assumption you will divorce, so that of she does it again, it if you just can't get over it, you are not trapped. Then decide at what point you are free to re evaluate and leave (if ever).


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## workindad

Best of luck OP. 

However if she were truly as remorseful as she says and owning her ****. Then she would answer your questions and discuss the issues. 

Her actions do not match her words. 

I do wish you luck. 
WD
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## badmemory

Wazza said:


> What level of consequences is enough?


I would suggest; to whatever level the BS can have no regrets for there not being enough of them.


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## Wazza

badmemory said:


> I would suggest; to whatever level the BS can have no regrets for there not being enough of them.


Really? So if my idea if appropriate consequences is to vent my anger by beating her up a few times, that is ok because it is an appropriate consequence?

Oh, of course not, we didn't mean physical abuse (I hope you are thinking). Ok, what about emotional abuse? At what point does it all become emotional abuse?

An affair is a sh1t sandwich and both partners in an affair get a taste. I can understand the notion that justice is served by the WS doing as much of the eating as possible, but my primary goal is a relationship, not a wife who stayed because of consequences. That means finding a balance both of you can live with.

And if consequences are her only reason for being here, then maybe she should be somewhere else.....


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## wilderness

Why make this more complicated than it needs to be?

Her: "I don't like talking about the A because it makes us both feel horrible."
You: "I don't like NOT talking about the A because it makes me feel horrible."

Then talk about it. 

If she avoids the subject, keep talking about it. And keep talking about it, and keep talking about it. Put her in a spot where her choices are limited. Either-
a- talk about the A and tell the truth
b- avoid talking about the A and deal with the consequences


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## azteca1986

Wazza said:


> *An affair is a sh1t sandwich* and both partners in an affair get a taste. I can understand the notion that justice is served by the WS doing as much of the eating as possible, but my primary goal is a relationship, not a wife who stayed because of consequences. That means finding a balance both of you can live with.


No. The _aftermath_ of an affair is a sh!t sandwich for both the WS & the BS. For the WS the affair included all that exciting affair sex and a chance to fall in love, whilst withholding the ultimate act of bonding from the man she married to keep herself pure for her lover.

The WS gets the good and bad of her choices. The BS only gets the bad. The least she should do is be completely honest and open and not keep herself or the affair safe from it's sordid reality.


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## Road Scholar

LongWalk said:


> Very good. You have this well reasoned. Your need for more information can wait.
> 
> Did she explain to you how it felt for her to realize that her feelings for him were false or temporary? What made her come to? How did she struggle with feeling of not being in love with you? That must have been very uncomfortable for her.
> 
> I suppose she will always say she suddenly realized she loved you but in truth is was a process. I think learning more about that process, including the sexual aspect, is more important to you than knowing that she lied about something on a particular date.
> 
> Also, I would want to know more about her thinking about integrity and honesty. She must have felt that she was degrading herself morally. Is recover of that better self a motivation in remaining married to you?


Thanks Long Walk. Really good insight and line of questioning for her. This IS stuff I want to know. How does the switch flip just like that? Or maybe it was gradual and over the 5 months I was being super husband she realized I wasn't such a jerk, but maybe it was HER being the jerk. Of course, she knew what she was doing was wrong, just didn't think about any consequences. Or maybe felt she was always going to be safe, knowing me. Maybe the goodwill we built up over that 5 month period allow us now to be in a position to try to R without guarantees. I don't know what the reaction would have been if I moved out and did the 180 right away. I agree in hindsight I should have.


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## Wazza

azteca1986 said:


> No. The _aftermath_ of an affair is a sh!t sandwich for both the WS & the BS. For the WS the affair included all that exciting affair sex and a chance to fall in love, whilst withholding the ultimate act of bonding from the man she married to keep herself pure for her lover.
> 
> The WS gets the good and bad of her choices. The BS only gets the bad. The least she should do is be completely honest and open and not keep herself or the affair safe from it's sordid reality.


If that is your walk away point, fair enough for you. I didn't need an amazingly detailed and complete timeline to know that my wife was made fully aware of the wrong she did. I have no doubt that she is fully aware of her guilt and stupidity. And if she's not....well she has used her lifeline. She should not assume the marriage would survive a repeat.


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## azteca1986

Wazza said:


> If that is your walk away point, fair enough for you. I didn't need an amazingly detailed and complete timeline to know that my wife was made fully aware if the wrong she did. I have no doubt that she is fully aware of her guilt and stupidity. And if she's not....well she has used her lifeline. She should not assume the marriage would survive a repeat.


Let me be clear. I think your experience constitutes a valuable shade-of-gray in what can be a world of absolutes. Your marriage is proof that you can re-build a marriage post-affair without knowing each and every detail. I'm not criticising how you had to deal with your wife's affair.

I just think that whilst there's still a chance, RS should be pushing for a whole lot more. This affair is fresh, unlike yours.

RS's WW is behaving like, well, a normal faithful wife - sex and telling him he's wonderful. Great.


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## Wazza

azteca1986 said:


> Let me be clear. I think your experience constitutes a valuable shade-of-gray in what can be a world of absolutes. Your marriage is proof that you can re-build a marriage post-affair without knowing each and every detail. I'm not criticising how you had to deal with your wife's affair.
> 
> I just think that whilst there's still a chance, RS should be pushing for a whole lot more. This affair is fresh, unlike yours.
> 
> RS's WW is behaving like, well, a normal faithful wife - sex and telling him he's wonderful. Great.


I agree totally, I would push it too. Making it clear that it is about coming to terms with things, not punishment, not consequences.

I would consider counselling. Maybe some time apart "to think" ie send a signal that all is not well just because you don't talk about it.

The sad thing is that trust and innocence are gone, probably forever. And then one day you might meet someone else who is as attractive as your wife, but without the hurt of the affair, and you will think "what if.....". Common scenario. I have seen marriages end years after an affair because of this. I myself have experienced it but have thought through it enough to see the trap for what it was and avoid it.

So I guess the positive is that the affair can start a master class in effective relationships. I am so much stronger, better and happier as a person now than I was then. Not that I would advise anyone to get cheated on just so they can have that learning.....


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## LongWalk

Road Scholar said:


> Thanks Long Walk. Really good insight and line of questioning for her. This IS stuff I want to know. How does the switch flip just like that? Or maybe it was gradual and over the 5 months I was being super husband she realized I wasn't such a jerk, but maybe it was HER being the jerk. Of course, she knew what she was doing was wrong, just didn't think about any consequences. Or maybe felt she was always going to be safe, knowing me. Maybe the goodwill we built up over that 5 month period allow us now to be in a position to try to R without guarantees. I don't know what the reaction would have been if I moved out and did the 180 right away. I agree in hindsight I should have.


On TAM people often describe the WS as "dead" or "non-existent". This is true in the sense that we are always changing. Your wife must have realized she was going to be a different person, not one that she approved of. Her conscience had remind her reason that her vagina and clit were lying to her. Some lies are sweet, so it is not surprizing that it took time. She had get rid of being in love with OM. It must have frightening to you both to resume having sex, for if it felt off, then you would have had a difficult time falling in love. You merely have ended up p!ssed off. 

I would be interested in her thoughts and behavior in general: is she a better person?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## badmemory

Wazza said:


> Really? So if my idea if appropriate consequences is to vent my anger by beating her up a few times, that is ok because it is an appropriate consequence?
> 
> Oh, of course not, we didn't mean physical abuse (I hope you are thinking). Ok, what about emotional abuse? At what point does it all become emotional abuse?


At the same point as it would for any faithful spouse. A WS spouse has the choice to accept reasonable consequences or not, just as any spouse has the choice to leave an abusive relationship. 

We can disagree about what are reasonable consequences; but I hope you're smarter than to think that I would advocate emotional or physical abuse.


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## Will_Kane

Road Scholar said:


> *She has told me things I did not know and I know pretty much all of it. They had a lot of sex. Clearly she enjoyed it. She did things with him that she refused to do with me - bj's. (she does now) She felt she loved him and has told him so. * She probably fantasized about spending the rest of her life together with him. She felt happy and fulfilled with him. She was truly infatuated with him.
> 
> I am willing to try at least for now to keep my family together with the hopes that the anger fades, that the hurt heals, that our marriage can be restored and be better than it had been before. I'm not a pushover as some people on TAM may take me for. I am firmly grounded on what's right and wrong. Huge family for support to lean on. Self sacrificing, maybe, as that was how I was raised in an Irish Catholic family with 13 kids and father a Chicago cop. We learned to put others first as kids. Not to be selfish or greedy. To think of others before we think of ourselves.
> 
> Would I stay if it were just her and I and not two incredible kids? Probably not.
> 
> I will post my timeline later this week so you all see what I know. I want to share it with her and make sure she knows what I know. I want to use that to walk her through the 7 months of hell she put me through. Punishment? Yeah maybe a little medicine. Thoughts.


If you know she had a lot of sex and did things with him she wouldn't do with you, was in love or at least infatuated, probably making plans, you know just about all you are going to know. I'm not trying to discourage you from asking for more info from her, but as far as KNOWLEDGE goes, there is no point to it. If you want her to confess more details to prove herself, there may be some point to it, but you already know what you need to. It doesn't really get any worse than that, unless she did it in your bed or with your kids in the next room or something like that.

If I were you, I would be more interested in the answers to the types of questions LongWalk posed. How did she give herself permission to do this? What did she tell herself - how did she rationalize it? What was her assessment of her marriage to you, what was her assessment of you, what was her assessment of herself, AS the affair was going on? What was it about other man that made her think she loved him more than you? What was it that made her realize it was all fake - something other man did, something you did, or something else?

I don't see the point of walking her through the timeline *EXCEPT if it is something YOU WANT to do. Then by all means.* But in my opinion, it doesn't necessarily help at this point. Time WILL tell. If she is faking all of this, it will wear off and she will turn around sooner or later, she will cheat again and you will find out. If this is an act and she can keep it up convincingly for years, good for her and good for you. Too many details can be a bad thing. If you need them, you need them, and you should forge ahead and get what you feel is missing. But you don't need any more details to understand the depth of her betrayal, I doubt you will learn any new fact that will change your opinion about what actually went on.

The phase you are in now is called hysterical bonding. Enjoy it while it lasts, because it doesn't last forever.


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## aug

LongWalk said:


> I would be interested in her thoughts and behavior in general: is she a better person?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Isnt it too early, way too early, to tell if she's a better person? It takes years for a person to be truly changed into a better person. And that's only with steadfast intention to be better. How can a person a few weeks out of D-day #2 be a better person already?


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## illwill

Sometimes the level of guilt, horror, and shame you see can indicate a changing. Also a willingness to quickly humble yourself to help your victim. The ones who seem to have a ability to change, start changing on dday. I do not believe in the fog. But if i did a truly mournful spouse would break that fog the moment they truly realize what they have done. We saw this with someday dig and regret, as well as dd and changing me, to a lesser extent.


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## bfree

*Re: Re: No sex after her affair...*



Road Scholar said:


> Thanks Long Walk. Really good insight and line of questioning for her. This IS stuff I want to know. How does the switch flip just like that? Or maybe it was gradual and over the 5 months I was being super husband she realized I wasn't such a jerk, but maybe it was HER being the jerk. Of course, she knew what she was doing was wrong, just didn't think about any consequences. Or maybe felt she was always going to be safe, knowing me. Maybe the goodwill we built up over that 5 month period allow us now to be in a position to try to R without guarantees. I don't know what the reaction would have been if I moved out and did the 180 right away. I agree in hindsight I should have.


I read a article awhile back about women's ability to detach quickly and form new attachments just as quickly. Basically the author hypothesized that in the time before writing (prehistoric) when humans were still evolving there were many and frequent tribal battles. In the aftermath the women of the losing tribe would be "taken" by the warriors of the conquering tribe. Those women that could form new bonds quickly with the conquerors lived and those that lamented their situation died. The author surmised through historical data that the ability to detach and attach quickly became a survival instinct that evolved in women. He explained that many women today still share that trait and stated that he believed it was this biological survival trait that contributed to much of the modern day relationship issues we now see. Just thought I'd throw it out there.


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## seasalt

All instances of faithlessness are different of course but on this site there are three wives that come to mind (Mrs. Mathias, EI, and ChangingMe) that had been found cheating, lied or hid their continued cheating, and are now in what appears to be successful reconciliation with their husbands.

I think a 100% remorseful wife is a better alternative to a future relationship with someone who may very well treat you badly as well. Your sensabilities are what you have to rely on if you will have a marriage worth having from this point forward. I guess this is my way of saying "trust your gut".

Good luck,

Seasalt


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## Daisy10

For the love of God, divorce this woman. You deserve better.


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## just got it 55

badmemory said:


> I would suggest; to whatever level the BS can have no regrets for there not being enough of them.


Absolutly correct

There is not a universal standard

Each individual needs to set those terms.

RS take note of this. Don't feel pressured to make decisions based on internet consensus.


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## warlock07

bfree said:


> I read a article awhile back about women's ability to detach quickly and form new attachments just as quickly. Basically the author hypothesized that in the time before writing (prehistoric) when humans were still evolving there were many and frequent tribal battles. In the aftermath the women of the losing tribe would be "taken" by the warriors of the conquering tribe. Those women that could form new bonds quickly with the conquerors lived and those that lamented their situation died. The author surmised through historical data that the ability to detach and attach quickly became a survival instinct that evolved in women. He explained that many women today still share that trait and stated that he believed it was this biological survival trait that contributed to much of the modern day relationship issues we now see. Just thought I'd throw it out there.


I cannot remember it but there is a word for these kind of deductions(psuedo pop psychology or something). They don't actually have any scientific evidence behind them and usually it is just an biased opinion author depending on what agenda they are working on. I wouldn't put too much stock into them bfree..


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: No sex after her affair...*



warlock07 said:


> I cannot remember it but there is a word for these kind of deductions(psuedo pop psychology or something). They don't actually have any scientific evidence behind them and usually it is just an biased opinion author depending on what agenda they are working on. I wouldn't put too much stock into them bfree..


After what my ex put me through years ago I don't take anything at face value. I'm sure it was unintentional but a healthy skepticism is probably the best thing she ever gave me. But still the theory is quite interesting although I'm sure there is no way to prove it.


----------



## illwill

seasalt said:


> All instances of faithlessness are different of course but on this site there are three wives that come to mind (Mrs. Mathias, EI, and ChangingMe) that had been found cheating, lied or hid their continued cheating, and are now in what appears to be successful reconciliation with their husbands.
> 
> I think a 100% remorseful wife is a better alternative to a future relationship with someone who may very well treat you badly as well. Your sensabilities are what you have to rely on if you will have a marriage worth having from this point forward. I guess this is my way of saying "trust your gut".
> 
> Good luck,
> 
> Seasalt


Staying in a bad situation because you are afraid the next one is worse is the very definition of staying for fear not love. No one would ever accomplish anything of value if they assume risk will mean failure.

Many people simply do not cheat we forget that on this site sometimes.

Anytime you take a cheater back, no matter how sorry they are, you tell them cheating is not my dealbreaker. And they remember it. Ill take someone who has been cheated on over a remorseful wife. And i did.


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## LongWalk

bfree said:


> I read a article awhile back about women's ability to detach quickly and form new attachments just as quickly. Basically the author hypothesized that in the time before writing (prehistoric) when humans were still evolving there were many and frequent tribal battles. In the aftermath the women of the losing tribe would be "taken" by the warriors of the conquering tribe. Those women that could form new bonds quickly with the conquerors lived and those that lamented their situation died. The author surmised through historical data that the ability to detach and attach quickly became a survival instinct that evolved in women. He explained that many women today still share that trait and stated that he believed it was this biological survival trait that contributed to much of the modern day relationship issues we now see. Just thought I'd throw it out there.


Musy be true. DNA testing has shown that the modern day population of Iceland comes Norse Viking and Irish women. You know few of those women wanted to get in wooden ships with men who spoke a different language and travel to where nobody knows. The memories of their dead men must have been horrific. For sure they died of heartbreak and disease.

Did the Vikings rape their captive women?


----------



## LostViking

Yes. But once a Viking took a wife, she would find that she had a tremendous amount of political and sexual freedom. For instance, a Wykkng woman could own her own property, was the primary financial executor of the marriage, and could freely have sex with other men if she wanted and her husband could say little about it. This was because the female to male ratio was as high as 3:1. A Wykkng woman was expected to bear lots of offspring, even when her husband was away trading or at war. Empregnation by other men was no big deal.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

So there was less monogamy and multiple genes went on. Probably for most of human evolutionary history monogamy was not the norm.


----------



## Chaparral

I may be mistaken but the odds of marrying a cheater is appx one out of three. If I remember correctly, the odds of marrying two cheaters in a row would be one out of nine.


----------



## JCD

bfree said:


> I read a article awhile back about women's ability to detach quickly and form new attachments just as quickly. Basically the author hypothesized that in the time before writing (prehistoric) when humans were still evolving there were many and frequent tribal battles. In the aftermath the women of the losing tribe would be "taken" by the warriors of the conquering tribe. Those women that could form new bonds quickly with the conquerors lived and those that lamented their situation died. The author surmised through historical data that the ability to detach and attach quickly became a survival instinct that evolved in women. He explained that many women today still share that trait and stated that he believed it was this biological survival trait that contributed to much of the modern day relationship issues we now see. Just thought I'd throw it out there.


So is that the basis of a man wanting to take every woman he sees as well? Does that fit into men's relationship issues?


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## bfree

Couldn't tell you. I didn't write the article.


----------



## cantthinkstraight

SO many similarities to what your wife and my ex did. 

It hurt just reading through all of this. I wish you the best.


----------



## Road Scholar

cantthinkstraight said:


> SO many similarities to what your wife and my ex did.
> 
> It hurt just reading through all of this. I wish you the best.


I'm sorry you went through the same stuff I have been going through. Sometimes it's hard to believe this is my life. It's like I have a "normal" family life trying to keep things on an even keel with my kids and for my kids and sometimes struggle to comprehend what it all means. 

I'm curious what happend in your situation. Did you decide enough was enough and call it quits? Did your wife not want to reconcile? Or was it a mutual decision that it was over between you both.

I wish you the best also.


----------



## aug

Road Scholar said:


> I'm sorry you went through the same stuff I have been going through. Sometimes it's hard to believe this is my life. It's like I have a "normal" family life trying to keep things on an even keel with my kids and for my kids and sometimes struggle to comprehend what it all means.
> 
> I'm curious what happend in your situation. Did you decide enough was enough and call it quits? Did your wife not want to reconcile? Or was it a mutual decision that it was over between you both.
> 
> I wish you the best also.


She never became truly remorseful. Instead she strung him along. They are either in the divorce process or recently divorced.


----------



## Road Scholar

Quick update - at least I will try to make it quick.

My wife got the job offer. She is planning to accept after working out the details and final negotiations. The start date will likely be Feb 1. We are both excited for a fresh start. As I mentioned this is a big step up for her and really allows her to realize one of her major career goals. Oddly it came about after my demanding she leave her current company. I have been patient with the amount of time it has taken and it appears that it has paid off. It has been almost 3 months in the making (DDay2).

The delayed start date is due to scheduled surgery my wife had planned. Another wrinkle I haven't mentioned until now. As a result, she is out of commission for a few weeks and recovering at home. I am helping to care for her while she is on the mend. I worked from home for the first week as she was unable to get around very well. It started out fine but after a few days I found myself resenting my caring for her and began to think how I have always cared for her pretty well whenever something like this came up and began feeling that she has taken my kindness for granted. She has had minor female health issues over the years and I have always been very supportive I feel. As bad as I knew she was feeling I could not stop myself from discussing this with her and how I was feeling. I knew the timing was not right but I was hurting and I guess I gave in knowing it would upset her and make her feel bad talking about the affair details, etc. As a result, there were a couple days that were pretty tough while she was still recovering (still is) that we had fairly spirited discussions. Some of my feelings stemmed from a conversation she had with her brother a month ago about us that I obtained through VAR.

Aside from that discussion, she has been pretty consistent with me for nearly 3 months now. Always telling me that she wants to be with me forever, how terribly sorry she is, how much she loves me and needs me, how wonderful I am basically. I have not been as consistent but I am getting better. She has also been very reassuring over the last 3 months. I feel she continues to be remorseful about all that happened and in some way cannot believe herself that it happened and who she became during that period of time. 

When we have the conversations about the A, they seem to be going better although it is clear she doesn't want to discuss any details. When we are in our "happy place", when we show each other love and compassion, I feel we are both better than we have ever been. At those times, I feel closer to her than I ever have. I know she feels the same. It's at these times where what has happened takes a back seat and the focus is on us in the present - not the past. I know she feels lucky to have another chance at us. She tells me so. She tells me things like I wish you knew how much I love you. Give me a chance and I will show you. I will never hurt you again. You are my sunshine. Without you my live is incomplete. With you by my side I feel I can do anything. Etc. Yes very flowery and flattering but I feel that she is genuine.

Of course all of this feels good and the reassurance helps no doubt. I also know when I show the "ugly" side of me, you know the pain, the anger, the hurt the resentment that she may have her own doubts about "us" even if she doesn't verbalize them to me. We both have tempers and when they take over we have both been known to say pretty hurtful things to each other which has partly led us to where we are. 

I guess I am begining to realize that being together is a choice. I have the choice to leave or the choice to stay and work on being better together. So far in this R, we have both made that choice to be with each other. There is a lot at stake. I am trying to make the choice to be happy, to be loving, to be kind, merciful, compassionate versus the alternative of hateful, vengeful, spiteful, resentful, etc. Trying to take a page from Nelson Mandella, a far greater man than I. Easier said than done but when I am able to truly be in that state, I am happier. I feel better. I feel in love. Love builds with love. And sometimes I need to "Fake it til you make it" until I get through those negative feelings. The hurt is still there no doubt, just under the surface sometimes, sometimes in my face, sometime barely in my conscience. If I feed it it gets bigger. If I work through it and focus on the end goal it gets smaller and I become happier. Knowing my wife is in this with me makes doing this easier.

I still love my wife. I love my kids more than life itself. They need me in their lives every day, in the am and in the night. My love of these things is stronger than the negative feelings I have about the A and that keeps me going. My wife is doing the right things now, finally, otherwise I could not do what I did for the 5 months while I was in false R - defending my life.

I feel I am in the process of reclaiming my life and at least for now, that feels pretty good.

I love the people on TAM. THANK YOU!

PS - The POS is on Cheaterville! Sort of a weak post but I was frustrated with the site.


----------



## TOMTEFAR

Has she given you a timeline yet?


----------



## Road Scholar

TOMTEFAR said:


> Has she given you a timeline yet?


I do NOT have a timeline that she provided rather one that I constructed based on conversations with her and as a result of my own digging and investigating. In other words, she never presented me with a timeline with all the dates and whereabouts, however through my own efforts I have a reasonable timeline of what occurred. I have a pretty good idea the nature of the relationship. It's not pretty and she knows this.

This hasn't been anything she has been able or willing to produce for me. I don't know the real reason why truthfully. Could be that it's too painful for her to relive. Could be that she is still hiding dates/times/places and wants to keep it that way to avoid additional pain and hurt on both sides.

At this point, I don't want to focus on it. I know the nature of what occurred and how ugly it was. So does she. I see the pain on her face when I have gone through the timeline. I'm not about inflicting pain on her at this point - at least not intentionally. When i get into my funk and we talk about A things my emotions get to an intensity level that is borderline emotional abuse to her. I don't want that and I don't mean for that to happen but it does. I know she feels I am throwing it in her face and saying how could you do this, how could you do that, it's how I verbalize my pain I guess. For me it's venting, for her it's me verbally beating her up. Mind you, I'm not yelling and screaming, just the intensity is off the charts so I think it feels that way to her.

For example, during one of our recent conversations, I asked again if she talked to OM since DDAY2. She said no. I said, well I don't believe you and I won't believe you until you show me your cell phone bill to prove it. She interpreted this as me calling her a liar. I said, I never called you a liar but I guess it's my way of telling you that I don't fully trust what you're telling me yet. I said I am looking to validate what YOU tell me with multiple sources and as many data points as I can gather.

I still have my guard up. I probably always will.


----------



## Thor

She proved herself a liar, thus any rational person would want proof of the truth of any claims she makes from now on.

At some point years down the road there will be, hopefully, a long history of her being truthful and you verifying it. Thus trust will be rebuilt and you will no longer doubt she is telling the full truth.

Until then, you have every right to believe she is capable of still telling you major lies.

She has no right to shame you or belittle you for doubting her honesty at this point.


----------



## the guy

I would have a hard time with out knowing what I was forgiving her for, but ya I can remember have some intense convos about her other life.
Add dude it was some painful crap to hear...so my friend maybe you are better off with what you got as compared to the god awful details I wanted and got!

So maybe you can count your self lucky...but in the end, can me or you or anyone here look at it as being lucky?

I'm kind of trigging thinking about the time line and the details and when I did get them you are right it was some painful crap for the both of us. She had to verbalize some shameful behavior she just wanted to block out for the rest of her life. She did some crazy sh1t it took a lot to pull it out of her.

So in the end...maybe its just as well you have put enough together on your own to finally move forward... hearing some crap you just can't unhear!!!!!!

As for Mrs.the-guy she has to go thru live doing crap you just can't undo.


----------



## wilderness

Asking for cel phone bills is so far from abuse it's not even in the same ballpark.

Refusing you a timeline can most certainly be considered abuse, however.

It seems to me that you are simply making excuses for her unaceptable behavior.


----------



## the guy

Thor said:


> She proved herself a liar, thus any rational person would want proof of the truth of any claims she makes from now on.
> 
> At some point years down the road there will be, hopefully, a long history of her being truthful and you verifying it. Thus trust will be rebuilt and you will no longer doubt she is telling the full truth.
> 
> Until then, you have every right to believe she is capable of still telling you major lies.
> 
> She has no right to shame you or belittle you for doubting her honesty at this point.


:iagree:


----------



## tom67

She won't show you the cell phone bill. That would be a deal breaker for me and most of us here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thor

To me it isn't about simply knowing what she did, it is knowing she is genuinely remorseful about what she did. Without remorse, how does one gain confidence she will not perpetrate further betrayals?

I think she is still being loyal to her selfish desires, in this case avoiding further difficult revelations and the possibility of D as a result. A remorseful person must be more loyal to the marriage and spouse than to themselves.


----------



## treyvion

Thor said:


> To me it isn't about simply knowing what she did, it is knowing she is genuinely remorseful about what she did. Without remorse, how does one gain confidence she will not perpetrate further betrayals?
> 
> I think she is still being loyal to her selfish desires, in this case avoiding further difficult revelations and the possibility of D as a result. A remorseful person must be more loyal to the marriage and spouse than to themselves.


They don't give it up easily. You have to kill it to the root if you want a chance of not being cheated on again in the future.


----------



## Syco

What's his name on cheaterville?


----------



## Wazza

What was the VAR conversation with her brother?

Regarding the cell phone bill, you are not going to like this, but I would try to get access to it without her knowing. If it is clean, well and good. If she is lying.....,well at least you can make your decision based on a full set of facts.

I think allowing her to be evasive is going to create long term problems. I see nothing she is done to make amends. Nothing. Refusing to let you see that phone bill suggests to me they may still be in contact. Sorry.


----------



## LongWalk

Road,

I think you have given a very well thought out account of your present situation. The 5 months of sexless false R created a huge bed of red hot coals. Your wife fears that more information about her deception, and this may include post Dday hook ups/communication with OM, would engulf your marriage in pyre that you would have no strength or desire to fight.

She could be right, but it is clear that she sees herself a strong person and not a woman to be dominated by her husband.

One thing that you might explore in your own mind is how far you are from asking her to forgive you for all your failings since your marriage is in a new stage. If you cannot imagine that you could examine yourself critically as a husband and lover, then you still have a lot of resentment weighing on your mind.

The dynamic in your relationship must be very dfferent now. Perhaps your wife seldom turns you down when you want sex. Does she initiate much? That would go a long ways to repairing your hurt. Also, have you gotten more passionate sex from her? Are new things happenng in bed?


----------



## ConanHub

the guy said:


> I would have a hard time with out knowing what I was forgiving her for, but ya I can remember have some intense convos about her other life.
> Add dude it was some painful crap to hear...so my friend maybe you are better off with what you got as compared to the god awful details I wanted and got!
> 
> So maybe you can count your self lucky...but in the end, can me or you or anyone here look at it as being lucky?
> 
> I'm kind of trigging thinking about the time line and the details and when I did get them you are right it was some painful crap for the both of us. She had to verbalize some shameful behavior she just wanted to block out for the rest of her life. She did some crazy sh1t it took a lot to pull it out of her.
> 
> So in the end...maybe its just as well you have put enough together on your own to finally move forward... hearing some crap you just can't unhear!!!!!!
> 
> As for Mrs.the-guy she has to go thru live doing crap you just can't undo.


If I was cheated on I personally would not care about the details, I would however, make her recount every disgusting, slimy detail while I was recording it. 

When someone has an affair it seems pleasant to them and very pleasurable. But when it is exposed, it is seen for what it truly is, something grotesque and vile.

If my wife ever cheated, she would need to confront her ugliness in the open, in front of me. She would need to see her actions clearly to be revolted by them and that would hopefully cause her to want to be someone different and better.

I would do this with no promise of R, but if she didn't absolutely submit, there would be no chance.


----------



## the guy

LongWalk said:


> but it is clear that she sees herself a strong person and not a woman to be dominated by her husband.


Thats sick..
I couldn't even imagine this.
Why, why, why is that even possible?

I'm all for being equal in a marriage but once that contract is broken if the wayward wants to stick around well then there must be some degree of submission from the wayward.

IDK, maybe I'm putting to much thought into it.


----------



## Will_Kane

You are giving us your perceptions of how it is going, but honestly, sometimes an outsider can be a better judge, even of someone we are close to, or of ourselves. More objective.

Some of the things you post make me think things are going well. Most things look good. The job, especially. How she is still playing nice. It's hard to keep that up for a long time if it's an act. The surgery and the time at home, now that you know all went well health-wise, probably is a good thing for your marriage.

Is she accessing her work email from your home? I'm assuming she is, she probably has to help out the people who are covering for her, but I would be just a little concerned if she spent too much time doing it.

Not giving you the timeline is not good, but not something to let get in the way of the reconciliation since you have been able to reconstruct a timeline and you can see how bad it was when it was still going on. You never put the screws to her - timeline or divorce - which would have been interesting to see which she would choose. Hopefully she would have given you the timeline. There definitely is worse stuff that you don't know about, but nothing that probably would be a deal-breaker. If you have a timeline that you put together that makes sense to you, that is good enough. Wife could give you same timeline and leave out anything really terrible, like OM in your house or in your bed, and you would be none the wiser anyway.

My guess is that she told her brother stuff about your marriage, maybe complained about you, but didn't give the full picture. Maybe the brother noticed her or you acting "funny" and she blamed it on you being insecure. That's not good but it's not a death blow to the reconciliation. I hope you didn't give away that you were using the VAR.

I think she must have talked to other man after D-day 2. Just about every cheater does it, even if it is just to say "sorry it didn't work out" and "I'm working on my marriage, don't call me." Your wife would be unusual if she didn't contact other man after D-day 2. I would think she would have done this using the work phone or email, or done it in such a way to hide it well enough that you would never find it, but maybe she used her cell phone instead. I don't think the affair is ongoing, or even was ongoing, but I think there probably was some communication.

Be concerned about her response to your request to see the cell phone bill. Her reaction may just be a knee-jerk to the way you asked for it, telling her you don't believe her is the same thing as calling her a liar. Been there, done that. You WILL lash out at her, it will decrease over time, eventually it will become very rare, and it's good that you are working at keeping it under control. After the initial reaction, however, once you both calm down after a few minutes, she should hand the bill or the phone or whatever it is you need to see over pretty easily, she should understand why you want to see it and not be too upset that you are looking at it. Has she given it to you, or is she still refusing? Ask nicely and explain why, but if she doesn't give it to you, it's not a good sign. Be nice, but be firm, and don't back down on this one. 

Going forward, you both should be open books with this type of stuff.

Maybe it's too soon, but you also should start thinking about how you could improve for her, keep working on what was missing from your marriage.

In the meantime, try to keep the rage under control. If you have a question, ask it, if something is bothering you, bring it up, if you need clarification on something, let her know, but if it's just rehashing the same old stuff, just venting, try to figure out a different way to handle it, go hit the heavy bag, go howl at the moon, because just going over the same old stuff, going round and round over the same material just for the sake of punishing her or raging on her, is counter-productive. She's back in, she's recommitted, you've already probably yelled at her enough, so anything more doesn't help. You feel better for a short time for getting it out, then you feel worse when you see how it only hurts the reconciliation.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Wazza said:


> Refusing to let you see that phone bill suggests to me they may still be in contact. Sorry.


Yep. I took my wife's phone when she was sleep, changed the password for online records and deleted the text from her phone. I downloaded all of her phone records and questioned her from a position of authority. It was not pretty, but she couldn't lie about anything.


If you've decided to let it go, than do that with no remorse. Don't put this on your kids or anything else and own your decision. Sounds like you are trying to convince yourself, not anyone on this board, of your decision.


----------



## warlock07

Road Scholar said:


> I do NOT have a timeline that she provided rather one that I constructed based on conversations with her and as a result of my own digging and investigating. In other words, she never presented me with a timeline with all the dates and whereabouts, however through my own efforts I have a reasonable timeline of what occurred. I have a pretty good idea the nature of the relationship. It's not pretty and she knows this.
> 
> *This hasn't been anything she has been able or willing to produce for me. I don't know the real reason why truthfully. Could be that it's too painful for her to relive. *
> no
> 
> *Could be that she is still hiding dates/times/places and wants to keep it that way to avoid additional pain and hurt on both sides.*
> 
> no
> 
> 
> At this point, I don't want to focus on it. I know the nature of what occurred and how ugly it was. So does she. I see the pain on her face when I have gone through the timeline. I'm not about inflicting pain on her at this point - at least not intentionally. When i get into my funk and we talk about A things my emotions get to an intensity level that is borderline emotional abuse to her. I don't want that and I don't mean for that to happen but it does. I know she feels I am throwing it in her face and saying how could you do this, how could you do that, it's how I verbalize my pain I guess. For me it's venting, for her it's me verbally beating her up. Mind you, I'm not yelling and screaming, just the intensity is off the charts so I think it feels that way to her.
> 
> :banghead::banghead:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *For example, during one of our recent conversations, I asked again if she talked to OM since DDAY2. She said no. I said, well I don't believe you and I won't believe you until you show me your cell phone bill to prove it. She interpreted this as me calling her a liar. I said, I never called you a liar but I guess it's my way of telling you that I don't fully trust what you're telling me yet. I said I am looking to validate what YOU tell me with multiple sources and as many data points as I can gather.
> *
> 
> You are not in R. You are in some kind of space where you keep fooling yourself that you are Ring on your terms...She is managing you and the whole situation. Of course , she is a proven liar. She even accused you of motional abuse
> 
> You are one of the weakest and self deluded BS I've come across in the site. And I am not saying this to antagonize you..Your acceptance of such mediocre R will cause further damage in the long term.
> 
> Tell me something she did that you asked for other than blowing hot air up your ass?? Making stupid grandiose statements are easy...She never gave you the time line.. The worst thing reading your posts is, even you can see that but you are choosing to willfully ignore the red flags and trying to
> rationalize what she is doing with stupid excuses.
> I still have my guard up. I probably always will.


----------



## Wazza

Sadly, I suspect Warlock might be right.

RS, you have been here before. She is being nice to you, but sex aside, was that not true after DDay 1? She changed jobs, but isn't that really something that was in her interests due to the huge promotion? And the phone bill is a big red flag. At the very least she is saying to that even though she betrayed you, you have no right to question her. At the most, she is still in contact with him.

The thing is, the longer you leave it, the harder it is to sort out, the trail goes cold, the truth becomes lost. Or you find out the hard way they were still in contact.....

If not for the phone bill, I would be inclined to give her the benefit of the doubt on the other stuff. I don't even see the timeline as a deal breaker. But taken all together, I think it is too early to relax.

Sorry.


----------



## turnera

So basically, nothing has changed. You haven't manned up, she hasn't disclosed, and you both pretend life is great cos she wants a nanny and you want your kids full time. Oh well, could be worse.


----------



## jim123

Road Scholar said:


> I do NOT have a timeline that she provided rather one that I constructed based on conversations with her and as a result of my own digging and investigating. In other words, she never presented me with a timeline with all the dates and whereabouts, however through my own efforts I have a reasonable timeline of what occurred. I have a pretty good idea the nature of the relationship. It's not pretty and she knows this.
> 
> This hasn't been anything she has been able or willing to produce for me. I don't know the real reason why truthfully. Could be that it's too painful for her to relive. Could be that she is still hiding dates/times/places and wants to keep it that way to avoid additional pain and hurt on both sides.
> 
> At this point, I don't want to focus on it. I know the nature of what occurred and how ugly it was. So does she. I see the pain on her face when I have gone through the timeline. I'm not about inflicting pain on her at this point - at least not intentionally. When i get into my funk and we talk about A things my emotions get to an intensity level that is borderline emotional abuse to her. I don't want that and I don't mean for that to happen but it does. I know she feels I am throwing it in her face and saying how could you do this, how could you do that, it's how I verbalize my pain I guess. For me it's venting, for her it's me verbally beating her up. Mind you, I'm not yelling and screaming, just the intensity is off the charts so I think it feels that way to her.
> 
> For example, during one of our recent conversations, I asked again if she talked to OM since DDAY2. She said no. I said, well I don't believe you and I won't believe you until you show me your cell phone bill to prove it. She interpreted this as me calling her a liar. I said, I never called you a liar but I guess it's my way of telling you that I don't fully trust what you're telling me yet. I said I am looking to validate what YOU tell me with multiple sources and as many data points as I can gather.
> 
> I still have my guard up. I probably always will.


RS,

She is doing nothing to help you heal and you are not either. She should be willing to do anything for you and she is not. She does what is best for her and you accept it.

You will never heal. This will never go away because you will never talk about it.

Communication is the key in a marriage foundation and your wife will only communicate what is in her best interest.

However, you are to blame in that you are allowing it. Be strong and fight for your marriage now or loose it in the future.


----------



## ThePheonix

Road Scholar said:


> This hasn't been anything she has been able or willing to produce for me. I don't know the real reason why truthfully. Could be that it's too painful for her to relive.


If you think a woman is withholding the details of an affair because its too painful for her to relive I've got news for you Dawg.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

> Trying to take a page from Nelson Mandella, a far greater man than I.


Mandela was a Great man. He also separated and divorced his cheating wife. HE also had his affairs. 

Great men make mistakes, the greatest men learn from them. Good luck, I hope you deal with your depression, then you can truly reconcile or divorce.


----------



## tom67

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Mandela was a Great man. He also separated and divorced his cheating wife. HE also had his affairs.
> 
> Great men make mistakes, the greatest men learn from them. Good luck, I hope you deal with your depression, then you can truly reconcile or divorce.


Eh he was a man not a great man

aangirfan: THE MURDEROUS MANDELAS


----------



## illwill

tom67 said:


> Eh he was a man not a great man
> 
> aangirfan: THE MURDEROUS MANDELAS


Take your agenda someplace else. I will put his acts up against 99% of most people. Including you.


----------



## illwill

Op you are still being a doormat. And she is still playing you. Words whisper, actions scream. 

But i sincerely wish u the best.


----------



## MyTurn

RS,
how about telling her in IC ,that in order to get past this, you need to have the time line . With out it you will keep wondering what else happend and that is stopping the R progress.Reminde her that you need it so you can forgive her ,so you start slowly trusting her again.
I suspect that there is more to this and she is afraid of the fall out.
I also think it's best to have the A talk once a week ,like every friday night after the kids are a sleep.That will give more time in the week to focus only on "us" time.
Hope for the best .


----------



## The Cro-Magnon

illwill said:


> Take your agenda someplace else. I will put his acts up against 99% of most people. Including you.


You brought him up, don't whine just because other people disagree.


----------



## LostViking

Much ado about nothing.


----------



## illwill

The Cro-Magnon said:


> You brought him up, don't whine just because other people disagree.


Actually, i did not bring it up first. Get your facts right before you come at me, son.


----------



## barbados

No timeline, still wants to rug sweep, and still has the [email protected] to try to hide cell phone records. 

You still don't get it RS. 

SHE DOES NOT GET TO MAKE DEMANDS ABOUT THIS !

True remorse means TOTAL OPENNESS !

Hate to break it to you, but she WON'T give you the full timeline because she is OBVIOUSLY hiding some things that make HER look like a total #[email protected]#@ !

Its still not about YOU, like is has to be. Its still all about HER !

This isn't real R. You simply went from false R with no sex to false R with sex.


----------



## turnera

barbados said:


> This isn't real R. You simply went from false R with no sex to false R with sex.


Sadly, this happens all too often. And women are all too aware that, often, all they have to do to keep a man (and avoid responsibility) is to offer it up.

I'm just sorry he was one of them. Thirty years from now, he's going to regret selling his soul for some bedroom time.


----------



## Road Scholar

tom67 said:


> She won't show you the cell phone bill. That would be a deal breaker for me and most of us here.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I probably should have clarified on the phone bill. 

It's a corporate issued phone, direct billed to the company. She doesn't get phone bills or details. They have a provider (TMobile) and it goes through a 3rd party to her. I need to find out if TMobile can produce the detailed billing and history of usage.

It's not like she is saying I'm not going to show you my phone bill. She doesn't get one. I will need to do some research to see if her account can be accessed online with her phone #.

If anyone else sees another way let me know.


----------



## Road Scholar

LongWalk said:


> Road,
> 
> I think you have given a very well thought out account of your present situation. The 5 months of sexless false R created a huge bed of red hot coals. Your wife fears that more information about her deception, and this may include post Dday hook ups/communication with OM, would engulf your marriage in pyre that you would have no strength or desire to fight.
> 
> She could be right, but it is clear that she sees herself a strong person and not a woman to be dominated by her husband.
> 
> One thing that you might explore in your own mind is how far you are from asking her to forgive you for all your failings since your marriage is in a new stage. If you cannot imagine that you could examine yourself critically as a husband and lover, then you still have a lot of resentment weighing on your mind.
> 
> The dynamic in your relationship must be very dfferent now. Perhaps your wife seldom turns you down when you want sex. Does she initiate much? That would go a long ways to repairing your hurt. Also, have you gotten more passionate sex from her? Are new things happenng in bed?


Part of the reason I am able to attempt this reconciliation is that I realize my own faults and shortcomings in the marriage that contributed to this. I take no responsibility for her actions, only mine. I have done things I am not proud of and do not think accurately represent who I am or what I believe. Yet, I did things that go against who and what I am so that is a part of me. I am capable of doing things that do not honor me or my upbringing. Clearly so it she. I know that I am truly remorseful for my actions and that gives me the belief that she is also.

We are human and we make mistakes. We need to forgive and be forgiven. Or, we can harbor ill will for the rest of our lives against those that hurt us and die of cancer some day. We had a broken marriage and while not that much different than alot of marriages, it wasn't working for a lot of reasons. I'm taking the opportunity to make it right. There is no guarantee and I accept that.

The sex is on hold while she recovers from her surgery. And yes that makes it a little more difficult for me during this R. When she is feeling better I will insist on alternatives until we can reengage. Generally speaking the sex is better but there have always been issues (pain) due to her "female problems". We are both hoping the surgery addresses some of those. She was not turning down sex anymore and was initiating more often prior to surgery.


----------



## terrence4159

ive been gone a while from this thread but i called it 65 pages ago. she threw some sex at you but did nothing else to change and the sex hooked you. there is no R going on but hey its your life if you want to go down the false R more hurt road your choice i wish you luck........cause buddy you need it


----------



## BrockLanders

Road Scholar said:


> I probably should have clarified on the phone bill.
> 
> It's a corporate issued phone, direct billed to the company. She doesn't get phone bills or details. They have a provider (TMobile) and it goes through a 3rd party to her. I need to find out if TMobile can produce the detailed billing and history of usage.
> 
> It's not like she is saying I'm not going to show you my phone bill. She doesn't get one. I will need to do some research to see if her account can be accessed online with her phone #.
> 
> If anyone else sees another way let me know.



I have a corporate phone from T-Mobile too, billed to the company. I can see usage reports, etc.


----------



## the guy

Road Scholar said:


> I take no responsibility for her actions, only mine. I have done things I am not proud of and do not think accurately represent who I am or what I believe. Yet, I did things that go against who and what I am so that is a part of me. I am capable of doing things that do not honor me or my upbringing. .


I can relate, in fact I think alot of guys were really good husbands only to get screwed over by their WW and I can read the pain when these guys got burned so bad.

I believe in our cases we have a certain degree of grace to forgive since we have been given the same grace from our spouses.

But these days both me and Mrs. the guy are honoring our upbringing by having the tools in preventing these bad behaviors from coming back.

I can't speak for my old lady with regards to her cheating again but I know for a fact I will never commit another felony or strike my old lady.


----------



## LongWalk

Credit card statements


----------



## tom67

barbados said:


> No timeline, still wants to rug sweep, and still has the [email protected] to try to hide cell phone records.
> 
> You still don't get it RS.
> 
> SHE DOES NOT GET TO MAKE DEMANDS ABOUT THIS !
> 
> True remorse means TOTAL OPENNESS !
> 
> Hate to break it to you, but she WON'T give you the full timeline because she is OBVIOUSLY hiding some things that make HER look like a total #[email protected]#@ !
> 
> Its still not about YOU, like is has to be. Its still all about HER !
> 
> This isn't real R. You simply went from false R with no sex to false R with sex.


I have to agree with this but it's your decision.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Has she taken a polygraph?


----------



## nogutsnoglory

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## nogutsnoglory

RS-
If you value the experience on this site you must know that you are kidding yourself 
For those experienced on here i would like to rate the chance of a successful R in this case. Simply put, it appears you are more attracted toward the ever so popular rug sweeping than the required transparency and heavy lifting required by your wife
I give your R a 0% chance until you demand for her to act appropriately
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## nogutsnoglory

turnera said:


> Has she taken a polygraph?


She won't come clean period. Polygraph is out of the question
She is dictating his recovery
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Nucking Futs

nogutsnoglory said:


> She won't come clean period. Polygraph is out of the question
> She is dictating his lack of recovery
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


fify


----------



## Road Scholar

BrockLanders said:


> I have a corporate phone from T-Mobile too, billed to the company. I can see usage reports, etc.


Thanks for this. I'm on it this afternoon and will provide an update to all on the phone records. It's just not easy putting her through this when she is recovering from surgery.

I appreciate the TAM folks keeping me honest. I want to believe everything I am hearing from her but maybe I'm not requiring her to do enough to help me.

I don't know that I want more details of what transpired. If I hear more than I can handle, I may not be able to forgive which is what I want.

Warlock: What you see as weakness I see as my strength, regardless I appreciate people here challenging me to do what they feel is necessary to heal. I'll pick and choose what I think is appropriate for my situation.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Road Scholar said:


> Thanks for this. I'm on it this afternoon and will provide an update to all on the phone records. It's just not easy putting her through this when she is recovering from surgery.
> 
> I appreciate the TAM folks keeping me honest. I want to believe everything I am hearing from her but maybe I'm not requiring her to do enough to help me.
> 
> *I don't know that I want more details of what transpired. If I hear more than I can handle, I may not be able to forgive which is what I want.*
> 
> Warlock: What you see as weakness I see as my strength, regardless I appreciate people here challenging me to do what they feel is necessary to heal. I'll pick and choose what I think is appropriate for my situation.


Don't you understand that that's the very basis of rug sweeping? You're so determined to forgive that you don't want to know what you're forgiving. You're rug sweeping, not reconciling.

This is not a healthy attitude.


----------



## warlock07

> Warlock: What you see as weakness I see as my strength,


Do you honestly believe that ? Then may be it is the way you post or I am reading them wrong about your situation. It appears that you are trying to convince yourself of these rationalizations by convincing the crowd on here. If you come up these kind of excuses in any kind of work, you would be called a mediocre worker and probably fired for it.

Think about it yourself. The lack of conviction and belief in your posts is pretty obvious. I don't blame you for trying to make this work. Who knows how anyone would react in your situation ? But for a 3rd party like me, it is very clear. It is just like watching a crash in slow motion. 

You said she was offended when you asked to see the phone records. How did the discussion end ?


----------



## tom67

Nucking Futs said:


> Don't you understand that that's the very basis of rug sweeping? You're so determined to forgive that you don't want to know what you're forgiving. You're rug sweeping, not reconciling.
> 
> This is not a healthy attitude.


Road you need to know exactly what you are forgiving.

We don't want to see you p!ssing away months in a false r.

You shouldn't have to chase her for this info she should be giving to you on demand.


----------



## warlock07

And I don't remember it but does the OM wife know ?


----------



## harrybrown

So what has the OM done for her while she had surgery? 

Your wife still did many things for the OM that took effort, energy and her love for him.

She has not done any thing to really help you heal. She never provided the timeline. 

File for divorce, she if she will ever wake up out of the affair fog.

She has probably taken the affair underground. She is still lying to you and I hope you survive Dday3.


----------



## missthelove2013

This is a heartbreaking story...on a forum FILLED with heartbreaking stories...

I dont know how you can do this, RS...she might not still be invested with this OM, but she is NOT owning what she did...she should NOT be refusing you anything right now...if you want detailed scripts of their sex, she should provide it (my wife did...im talking down to smell taste feel, I wanted it all and we never were or are going to R)...

Do you want to get a year into R and discover details she withheld from you that could possible have been deal breakers (there probably are, thats why she wont provide a time line, she will only verify what SHE is sure YOU already know)

ugh...I dont know how you guys do this R thing...especially in this story...I get it, the kids...but I dont want my daughter growing up thinking its ok to cheat, or worse, its ok to rug sweep cheating...


----------



## dogman

Road Scholar said:


> Part of the reason I am able to attempt this reconciliation is that I realize my own faults and shortcomings in the marriage that contributed to this. I take no responsibility for her actions, only mine. I have done things I am not proud of and do not think accurately represent who I am or what I believe. Yet, I did things that go against who and what I am so that is a part of me. I am capable of doing things that do not honor me or my upbringing. Clearly so it she. I know that I am truly remorseful for my actions and that gives me the belief that she is also.
> 
> We are human and we make mistakes. We need to forgive and be forgiven. Or, we can harbor ill will for the rest of our lives against those that hurt us and die of cancer some day. We had a broken marriage and while not that much different than alot of marriages, it wasn't working for a lot of reasons. I'm taking the opportunity to make it right. There is no guarantee and I accept that.
> 
> The sex is on hold while she recovers from her surgery. And yes that makes it a little more difficult for me during this R. When she is feeling better I will insist on alternatives until we can reengage. Generally speaking the sex is better but there have always been issues (pain) due to her "female problems". We are both hoping the surgery addresses some of those. She was not turning down sex anymore and was initiating more often prior to surgery.



So this begs the question...did it hurt when she had sex with the OM during false R? Since he was the only one having her. Or are you not able to ask that question or maybe you can ask it but she will refuse to answer or maybe you're afraid to ask it because she might get mad or the memories she has of sex with the OM are soooo painful she can't bear to be reminded. 

This whole thing about this being too painful to talk about for her is bullsnot. It's an easy way to avoid answering questions that I really think Road Scholar doesn't want to know the answers to.


----------



## MattMatt

Nucking Futs said:


> Don't you understand that that's the very basis of rug sweeping? You're so determined to forgive that you don't want to know what you're forgiving. You're rug sweeping, not reconciling.
> 
> This is not a healthy attitude.


Not everyone wants all the details. I didn't. Just knowing my wife had cheated was more than enough, thank you very much!


----------



## Wazza

I reconciled. 

If a spouse's decision to cheat is out of character, then it is painful for them to talk about something they are deeply ashamed if, and they can feel like they are being attacked. These were true in my case.

On the other hand, when they withhold information or actively lie, as my wife did, the damage that does to trust and intimacy is huge and ongoing.

Like you RS, I did not get a timeline out of my wife (I did not know to ask for one, it was all pre Internet). When I out together my own timeline, I know that it shows lots of broken promises. The fact is there will always be a shadow of doubt. 

That is what drives my posts on your thread. The knowledge that the pain you feel how will recede, but not disappear. And the belief that the more secrets you guys have from each other, the harder it will be to heal.

You want to believe your wife is sorry and has changes. Maybe she has, but the only way to know is to take the journey. And my firm belief is, the more you eliminate dishonesty and secrets from the relationship, the better your chances.

It's a hard journey. Don't make it harder.


----------



## barbados

Road Scholar said:


> I don't know that I want more details of what transpired. If I hear more than I can handle, I may not be able to forgive which is what I want.


This is rug sweeping. 

You say you want to forgive her for what you know she did, but since you don't have the full truth, what exactly are you forgiving her for ?

You are not DEMANDING she face ALL of what she did. 

All I read in your recent posts, its all about YOU FORGIVING HER. SHE IS THE ONE WHO CHEATED !

Again, this is false R. This will come back to bite you down the road.


----------



## dogman

Wazza said:


> I reconciled.
> 
> If a spouse's decision to cheat is out of character, then it is painful for them to talk about something they are deeply ashamed if, and they can feel like they are being attacked. These were true in my case.
> 
> On the other hand, when they withhold information or actively lie, as my wife did, the damage that does to trust and intimacy is huge and ongoing.
> 
> Like you RS, I did not get a timeline out of my wife (I did not know to ask for one, it was all pre Internet). When I out together my own timeline, I know that it shows lots of broken promises. The fact is there will always be a shadow of doubt.
> 
> That is what drives my posts on your thread. The knowledge that the pain you feel how will recede, but not disappear. And the belief that the more secrets you guys have from each other, the harder it will be to heal.
> 
> You want to believe your wife is sorry and has changes. Maybe she has, but the only way to know is to take the journey. And my firm belief is, the more you eliminate dishonesty and secrets from the relationship, the better your chances.
> 
> It's a hard journey. Don't make it harder.


True but it's funny that they aren't ashamed and they aren't painful thoughts to focus on until they get caught and they have motivation to hide details. Then it's all about "oh...it hurts too much!.. Stop questioning me! It hurts"


----------



## workindad

Rugsweeping is not a strength.


----------



## Wazza

dogman said:


> True but it's funny that they aren't ashamed and they aren't painful thoughts to focus on until they get caught and they have motivation to hide details. Then it's all about "oh...it hurts too much!.. Stop questioning me! It hurts"


It took my wife months for her to accept what she had done. During the affair, everything was my fault. Then there was a period of crisis. And then she got it. And now the shame of what she did still hurts her. 

One if many examples of "the fog" that I witnessed first hand.

Not defending it. And not saying that it's always that way. But it was definitely so in our case.


----------



## dogman

Wazza said:


> It took my wife months for her to accept what she had done. During the affair, everything was my fault. Then there was a period of crisis. And then she got it. And now the shame of what she did still hurts her.
> 
> One if many examples of "the fog" that I witnessed first hand.
> 
> Not defending it. And not saying that it's always that way. But it was definitely so in our case.



This is true Wazza and I respect anything you have to say. In this case she is ashamed or pained by the thoughts way too soon. This is a play.
In your case it seems the process was as it should be. It took time to realize the fool she was and when that set in she was ashamed.
In the OPs case she was discovered and continued lying and sleeping with the OM and then she was busted again, now she's suddenly ashamed and it hurts to speak of it. No, that's her trying to manipulate for rugsweeping. 
I'm not saying a WS can't be sorry, I'm saying this one is making a manipulative play with something that others experience.


----------



## Road Scholar

warlock07 said:


> Do you honestly believe that ? Then may be it is the way you post or I am reading them wrong about your situation. It appears that you are trying to convince yourself of these rationalizations by convincing the crowd on here. If you come up these kind of excuses in any kind of work, you would be called a mediocre worker and probably fired for it.
> 
> Think about it yourself. The lack of conviction and belief in your posts is pretty obvious. I don't blame you for trying to make this work. Who knows how anyone would react in your situation ? But for a 3rd party like me, it is very clear. It is just like watching a crash in slow motion.
> 
> You said she was offended when you asked to see the phone records. How did the discussion end ?



Yes Warlock, I do believe I am being strong not weak. I am fighting through these sh*tty feelings in an attempt to get to the other side and save my marriage and keep my family in tact.

I feel filing for D is an end to this situation but one that causes a great deal of pain not only for me but my kids too and everyone involved. I can file at any time I feel this is not going well. Maybe after 5 months and now 3 months, it could be viewed as NOT going well, but there have been some happy moments in there and I want to see if I am able to string more than 2 or 3 days of being happy together. The yo-yo or limbo if you want to call it that is hard. If I am being weak it is that I have not been able to fully commit to the R without going back and forth, rehashing the A.

Yes, part of me may be trying to convince myself that I am doing the right thing by attempting to R. Sometimes I am convinced I am. Other times I am not so sure. So if it feels to you and others here that I am rationalizing or seeking approval of posters here, to some extent I probably am. I haven't taken all advice and I am not as knowledgeable as many here so I am trying to convey what's going on in my head and within our relationship as we both are struggling through this. I am interested in your collective opinions on how you see this going through your experienced eyes. 

Basically regarding the phone bill, she told me she has NOT been in communication with him since 9/18 when she sent the NC. I told her I have reason to believe she did and I could not believe her until I saw phone records to prove otherwise. She later interpreted that as me calling her a liar.

Yesterday I gained access to her phone usage detail. There was NO evidence that there had been any contact between them. At least not through her cell phone. She has been adamant that there has been no contact between them other than the time she told me about where he stopped by her office.

I was triggering bigtime looking through the details of the calls/texts between them intertwined with my own while the A was still on. Still, I was relieved that there appeared to have been no contact. I realize there may have been contact at work via IM, email, but I am more inclined to believe that there hasn't been any since DDay2.

Again, she was extremely emotional. They're not fake tears as far as I can tell. They stream from her face uncontrollably. I feel she is remorseful.

Some people here say I need to understand what I'm forgiving. I do and while I still am not 100% convinced I can forgive it, I am trying. She cheated, lied, schemed, fell out of love with me, fell in love with someone else, rationalize it all away, blamed me for it all, and when I found out about the affair, went into a false R, and continued the affair by taking it underground and witholding sex from me so she could be true to her OM. When DDay2 occurred and I found out she was still involved with him, and told her i was filing for D, the switch flipped and she realized how disgusting she had become and what she was about to lose. From that point on she has been consistent about trying to save our marriage.

I have a timeline. Not one she provided, but one I constructed based on certain details she provided under direct questioning. Yes, not ideal I get that but I also know she is afraid any more details will be the straw that breaks my back.

I'm not about making her pay or making her suffer even though these conversations seemingly do exactly that. She is ashamed. She feels horrible (as she should). She tells me it's the worst most horrible thing she has ever done in her life. She is desperately trying to save our marriage. She has killed me. She has killed herself. She looks at that period of time as the worst time in her life and wished she could take it back, change it, stop sooner, never have started it. Really hard to believe when looking at the phone records, but call it the Affair Heroine. 

What else should she be doing? She went to confessed to our pastor face to face on the altar with tears streaming down her face. She may not be doing everything or doing it "by the book" but I have to believe it is real remorse. And still, I don't know that it will be enough in the end.

Yes, the OM wife knows. Sent her letters, then sent her neighbors letters addressed to her. She got them and felt "threatened". Whatever.


----------



## illwill

Would you take her back if you did not believe in the fog?

Your post do come across weak. They are loaded with excuses. Take my words with a grain of salt. 

Figure out your true deal breaker and stick to it. Hopefully you will not need it.

I think youll be fine either way.


----------



## VFW

Road,

She needs to understand you are not calling her a liar, but like Ronald Reagan suggested you want to trust, but verify.


----------



## lordmayhem

I called my fWW a liar, so what? Its the truth after all. And she knows it and admits it. Thats why she's busting her butt so hard to regain credibility with me.

Your WW is still defensive and not giving details. This is rugsweeping. I would post my chart but I'm on my phone right now.


----------



## turnera

Road Scholar said:


> Basically regarding the phone bill, she told me she has NOT been in communication with him since 9/18 when she sent the NC. I told her I have reason to believe she did and I could not believe her until I saw phone records to prove otherwise. She later interpreted that as me calling her a liar.


So?

You have every REASON to consider her a liar.

That she can't see that, or acknowledge it, or can live day to day being _indignant _at you calling her a liar is the problem we see.

She won't have the right to be indignant for quite some time.


----------



## harrybrown

She will not give you the timeline and the details, because she is still in love with the OM and she is protecting him.

You are her plan B. You were while she would not give you, her husband, sex for several months and you are still her plan b.

Did she always use protection when she did all the wonderful things for the OM? She has done so much more for the OM than for you. She still keeps you as her plan b and when she decides to cheat again and again, she knows you will rugsweep.

Past behavior is a great prediction of future behavior. People here have given you great advice. She will cheat on you again. 

If you file for divorce, she can try to win you back after the divorce is final. She may someday wake up from the affair fog.

I do wish you happiness in the future, but I do not see it with your wife that is still cheating on you and treating you so rotten.

Has your wife read no more friends or any book on the subject?


----------



## cantthinkstraight

She's showing the tell tale signs of a rugsweeper and wants
the easy way out. Don't allow this. You have every right to
not only demand the truth, but also to confirm it by any
means required.

You don't owe her squat. Keep up the pressure and make
her do the heavy lifting. Her whining about it should tell you
how serious she really is about fixing what she screwed up.

This is not on you, it's on her.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

lordmayhem said:


> I called my fWW a liar, so what? Its the truth after all.


Liars offended by being called an implied liar? Yes, just what the marriage needs, moral outrage after a betrayal of trust through lying.

If you feel she is remorseful I think that is great. I hope you'll make sure you avoid the history rewrites. Seriously, she lied, cheated, shared herself with another and is offended because you don't trust her?
Wow.

I find it ironic that she can't/won't give you a timeline or phone records without a fight, but you accept the tears and pastor confessions with love and a small amount of triggering.


----------



## Openminded

Tears don't mean much. Many females can cry very convincingly. They learn early how to manipulate males through tears. So discount the tears.


----------



## warlock07

A few things:



> I'm not about making her pay or making her suffer even though these conversations seemingly do exactly that. She is ashamed. She feels horrible (as she should). She tells me it's the worst most horrible thing she has ever done in her life. She is desperately trying to save our marriage. She has killed me. She has killed herself. She looks at that period of time as the worst time in her life and wished she could take it back, change it, stop sooner, never have started it. Really hard to believe when looking at the phone records, but call it the Affair Heroine.


It wasn't a ONS. It happened over several months. And it happened after you already found about it and you were breaking your back to fix the marriage. She could look at you and lie wonderfully. How easy is it for her to go back to that emotional state ?

She accused you of emotional abuse.

Tears are not real remorse. Women cheaters are extremely good at it.

And you know how addicts say that they really mean it this time when they say they would stop the drugs. They really mean it at that instant. her pain at this moment might be very real. But it does not mean that she wouldn't do it again. Especially if she can conveniently make her H rugsweep the whole issue through her tears. She need not be a evil mastermind to do this. 

The whole thing is no longer about her. Her crying could easily be self pity. Why is is she even crying ? Every action has been her own doing. By letting her get away by crying and tears, you are having a stop gap fix to the situation. Like a band aid on a deep cut. It is a temporary fix to your situation but inside , the wound is rotting and you will have to amputate it sooner or later

Or she is forced to reconcile because she is scared of the being exposed to her family ?



> She went to confessed to our pastor face to face on the altar with tears streaming down her face.



Not the pastor, he is probably a stranger and she can change churches easily. There is no emotional investment in a pastor. Do you actually think she is ready to confess to her father ? You mentioned it before. She hated her mom because she cheated on his father, right ? And to still do that to you..You need to actually find out what she feels about you. Not pity, not guilt, not shame. You need her to love and respect you.


----------



## warlock07

> Yes Warlock, I do believe I am being strong not weak. I am fighting through these sh*tty feelings in an attempt to get to the other side and save my marriage and keep my family in tact.


I get what you mean. The flip side of the coin are those people that stop taking medicine to actual illness and hope to heal through prayer. You are trying t do the "right thing". Just make sure that it really is.


----------



## turnera

RS, I hope you will hear this. This statement:


> She later interpreted that as me calling her a liar.


is the one problem in your whole marriage.

Do you see the problem?

It's that she talks, and you listen.

Moreso, the ... relationship ... you have with her is one of subserviance, of needing to please her, or fearing her anger or wrath, or needing her admiration, or ... or what?

Your relationship is in an uneven keel, sinking, and YOU are the one trying to tread water, because you are so insecure that you feel worthless without her and her 'wanting' you. You can't rock the boat because you are SCARED TO DEATH that she will NOT choose you.

That is no way to live.


----------



## LongWalk

Road,

You describe your situation well. Yes, she is remorseful. However, you are not satisfied, otherwise you would not be here. You would not be wondering if divorce is coming. Regardless of what you hope, you are still seeking closure.

What do you want? What do you need?

If your wife were to see a picture of OM, a picture of him smiling, what emotions would go through her head? Would she feel hatred, anger, sadness, regret, love, disgust? Some mixture? Would seeing him risk re-igniting her desire for him?

Perhaps, she herself does not know the answer to these questions.

One factor that bothered you was the relative indifference to you when you resumed sexual relations. That she was faithful to OM and had trouble giving herself to you was bad, but in some way if suggests that if you have overcome that, you are replacing her memories of him with memories of you. Your wife is no longer faithful to the OM. She is not saving herself for him anymore.

Her sexual passion for him was presumably enormous since she was willing to engage in a prolonged false R. It could be that she was beginning to tire of cheating and the intensity of her feelings for him were on the wane when you threatened divorce.

One aspect of the false R that clearly bothers you: he wanted to have sex with her and was not calling a halt to the affair. She was fine with that. She came when he asked her to, she lied when he asked her to, she did what he wanted sexually when he asked her to. And all you want is the truth. What sort of things might she be concealing?

All the details about sex. What do want to know? What knowledge would destroy your R.

If she told you OM pushed her to have anal sex and she did it and did not like it and it even harmed her feelings for him, would you beliieve her? Would thinking about it make things unbearable?

You need a psychological strategy to deal with triggers. 

Is the intimacy and affection she shows you sufficient to keep your soul intact? Can you be affectionate and loving towards her? Is something missing from your own emotional capacity?


----------



## terrence4159

road please dont use the pain it would cause my kid B.S. line here. its not about them because kids know when stuff is wrong and when they find out about the affair (if they havent already stop following a while ago) what kind of example you setting?

most kids turn out like their parents so which one do you want your kids to turn out like? the wife a cheating liar that only cares about herself? or the dad who lets the wife walk all over him? 

kids from D families turn out just fine. set a good example for them put your foot down and since you want to R she has to want to R and right now she is not. you are in a false R. only hurting your kids


----------



## Wazza

terrence4159 said:


> road please dont use the pain it would cause my kid B.S. line here. its not about them because kids know when stuff is wrong and when they find out about the affair (if they havent already stop following a while ago) what kind of example you setting?
> 
> most kids turn out like their parents so which one do you want your kids to turn out like? the wife a cheating liar that only cares about herself? or the dad who lets the wife walk all over him?
> 
> kids from D families turn out just fine. set a good example for them put your foot down and since you want to R she has to want to R and right now she is not. you are in a false R. only hurting your kids


Sorry, but I disagree.


----------



## terrence4159

dont say sorry wazza im not offended if you disagree.


----------



## MyTurn

R,
have you tried to make a list of pros and cons about your wife?
It will help you see your thoughts more clear and objectively .
I would also share it with her,so she can understand better what needs to be done ,to improve the cons.


----------



## LongWalk

What Turnerna wrote is also pertinent. The balance of power in your relationship is not 50/50. If you demand an equal say in your relationship, will it survive?

Regarding the timeline:
The timeline includes unpleasant facts, for the most part. If you commit to forgiving, without knowing what exactly you are forgiving, you will always have the puzzle that others have described. She knows what the puzzle looks like but you don't. Someone wrote about this analogy very well; it's one of the classic TAM essays.

What you did struggle to learn, i.e., what you did learn leading to Dday 2, saved your marriage. So, the truth was good for it then. Now what you wonder is when more of the truth will be bad for your marriage. Indeed, there must be a point when discussing a particular lie she told on a particular day serves no purpose.

You could perhaps tell how this works. Tell her that you cannot drive this from your mind entirely. Maybe you need to have an agreement. When you feel bad, you need to be able to tell her and she has to reach inside herself and generate extra affection and empathy. Some afflictions have no permanent cure and the only medicine is an asprin and forebearance.

You are, of course, being stronger.


----------



## carmen ohio

Road Scholar said:


> Yes Warlock, I do believe I am being strong not weak. I am fighting through these sh*tty feelings in an attempt to get to the other side and save my marriage and keep my family in tact.
> 
> I feel filing for D is an end to this situation but one that causes a great deal of pain not only for me but my kids too and everyone involved. I can file at any time I feel this is not going well. Maybe after 5 months and now 3 months, it could be viewed as NOT going well, but there have been some happy moments in there and I want to see if I am able to string more than 2 or 3 days of being happy together. The yo-yo or limbo if you want to call it that is hard. If I am being weak it is that I have not been able to fully commit to the R without going back and forth, rehashing the A.
> 
> Yes, part of me may be trying to convince myself that I am doing the right thing by attempting to R. Sometimes I am convinced I am. Other times I am not so sure. So if it feels to you and others here that I am rationalizing or seeking approval of posters here, to some extent I probably am. I haven't taken all advice and I am not as knowledgeable as many here so I am trying to convey what's going on in my head and within our relationship as we both are struggling through this. I am interested in your collective opinions on how you see this going through your experienced eyes.
> 
> Basically regarding the phone bill, she told me she has NOT been in communication with him since 9/18 when she sent the NC. I told her I have reason to believe she did and I could not believe her until I saw phone records to prove otherwise. She later interpreted that as me calling her a liar.
> 
> Yesterday I gained access to her phone usage detail. There was NO evidence that there had been any contact between them. At least not through her cell phone. She has been adamant that there has been no contact between them other than the time she told me about where he stopped by her office.
> 
> I was triggering bigtime looking through the details of the calls/texts between them intertwined with my own while the A was still on. Still, I was relieved that there appeared to have been no contact. I realize there may have been contact at work via IM, email, but I am more inclined to believe that there hasn't been any since DDay2.
> 
> Again, she was extremely emotional. They're not fake tears as far as I can tell. They stream from her face uncontrollably. I feel she is remorseful.
> 
> Some people here say I need to understand what I'm forgiving. I do and while I still am not 100% convinced I can forgive it, I am trying. She cheated, lied, schemed, fell out of love with me, fell in love with someone else, rationalize it all away, blamed me for it all, and when I found out about the affair, went into a false R, and continued the affair by taking it underground and witholding sex from me so she could be true to her OM. When DDay2 occurred and I found out she was still involved with him, and told her i was filing for D, the switch flipped and she realized how disgusting she had become and what she was about to lose. From that point on she has been consistent about trying to save our marriage.
> 
> I have a timeline. Not one she provided, but one I constructed based on certain details she provided under direct questioning. Yes, not ideal I get that but I also know she is afraid any more details will be the straw that breaks my back.
> 
> I'm not about making her pay or making her suffer even though these conversations seemingly do exactly that. She is ashamed. She feels horrible (as she should). She tells me it's the worst most horrible thing she has ever done in her life. She is desperately trying to save our marriage. She has killed me. She has killed herself. She looks at that period of time as the worst time in her life and wished she could take it back, change it, stop sooner, never have started it. Really hard to believe when looking at the phone records, but call it the Affair Heroine.
> 
> What else should she be doing? She went to confessed to our pastor face to face on the altar with tears streaming down her face. She may not be doing everything or doing it "by the book" but I have to believe it is real remorse. And still, I don't know that it will be enough in the end.
> 
> Yes, the OM wife knows. Sent her letters, then sent her neighbors letters addressed to her. She got them and felt "threatened". Whatever.


Dear Road Scholar,

As you know, I have been a pretty harsh critic of how you have handled your wife's infidelity. Among other things, I have urged you to do everything possible to get the full truth from her so that you can make the decision to reconcile or not based on full information and have closure if you do reconcile. Her failure/refusal to do so is still something that would concern me if I were you.

I must say, however, that I am impressed by your latest post. It seems to me that you have come at this problem from a mostly rational POV and that the risks you are taking (there are always risks in situations like this) are reasonable ones.

While I am inclined to agree with Warlock07 that your response is still somewhat weak, I appreciate that you are trying to strike a balance so as not to drive your wife away emotionally. I would urge you not to err too far on the "weak" side in doing this as, if you do, you run the risk of your WW losing even more respect for you (and, don't kid yourself, she would not done what she did -- especially going back to the OM after you caught her the first time -- if she really did respect you).

I agree that there is no urgency in filing for divorce. What is important is that your WW believe that you are prepared to do so if she strays again, even the least little bit.

You are probably correct that she is no longer in contact with the OM. While there is always a chance that they will connect again, I think the bigger problem is her ego and apparent feelings of entitlement. Given that you are playing nice and she now has an even better job than before this all happened, the danger is that she will learn the wrong lesson -- that she can wander off the reservation, come back when she is ready, and you will take her back in order to keep your family together. I understand you desire not to break up your family but would urge you not to let her know that this is one of if not your principal motivation.

As to what else she should be doing, only you can decide that. The question is, do you believe she is doing enough? You should reflect on this from time-to-time and let her know immediately if she is not. The reason for this is two-fold:

- to reassure you that she is really remorseful (stop falling for her words and tears, they mean nothing -- only actions count) and

- to continue to reinforce in her the realization that there will be even more serious consequences if she ever betrays you again.

Finally, don't lose sight of the fact that -- despite your best intentions and even if you do everything right -- your marriage may still fail. She may cheat again (I think the odds are pretty high that she will) or you may not be able to get over what she's done already. Therefore, please protect yourself financially and emotionally. You should consider speaking to an attorney about getting a post-nuptial agreement and you should get involved in activities and make friends outside of your marriage so that, if things don't work out, you will be in the best possible place to deal with it.

Wishing you and your family the best.


----------



## Thor

I think several here have touched on the problem but have not clearly identified what it is. Maybe I can connect the dots differently.

Reconciliation is not where you forgive her for having sex with someone else. The sex is just a data point. Most of us have wives who were not virgins when we met, and so our wives have experienced PiV and who knows what else with other men. Our wives have felt love and said ILY to other men before us. While not a joyful thing for a husband to think about, we accept it as fact, and it happened before we were married.

So what was the transgression? Betrayal. Betrayal of trust. Betrayal of love. Betrayal of the marriage itself. The physical sex or the emotional love in an affair is the mode of the betrayal, but it is not the core of the betrayal.

A recovery of the relationship requires that the betrayal ends, and that the betrayer proves worthy of once again being trusted not to betray in the future.

And this is where the disconnect seems to be right now. She is refusing to provide a timeline. This seems to be a form of betrayal to me. She is protecting herself and perhaps others when she should be behaving loyally to the relationship. She should be putting the needs of the relationship above herself and the OM.

She is either unwilling or unable to act loyally today to the marriage or to Road. Why? It doesn't matter. She is simply failing to do the first step in R, which is return to full loyalty to the marriage.

It doesn't matter if BS knows every detail of what happened from his own sleuthing. What matters is the WS becoming fully loyal to the marriage and then doing the hard work to rebuild.

Though this is just an outline it is an excellent overview worthy of several readings. It is clear WW is violating necessary requirements for Road to heal. An unhappy R is guaranteed if she cannot do her part. *You cannot do her work for her.*

http://www.eftsummit.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Healing-Attachment-Summit-Wkbk-rev71212.pdf


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## phillybeffandswiss

From a post from lordmayhem and bunch of other posters:









Believe what you will, but rugsweeping is your situation to a T. She isn't transparent, is defensive, resentful, angry and blamseshifting. You are currently experiencing three out of those four rugsweeping boxes. Just sayin.

You don't have to agree, as we all pull stats to fit our arguments. Just showing you something that isn't exclusively created by TAM or TAM members opinions.


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## wilderness

The next time you see your wife, ask her where your timeline is.
When she makes an excuse, start a huge fight. Say things to her that make her extremely uncomfortable. Make sure to up the anxiety level as high as possible. Make it a long fight.

The next day, do the exact same thing.

And the next day after that, and the next day after that, and the next day after that.

She will either produce your timeline or leave you, very quickly, if you do this.


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## LongWalk

Hope you had good holidays.


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## Road Scholar

Holidays were good, thanks. I hope yours were as well.

Quick update for anyone interested. My wife had surgery scheduled over the holidays and that went fine. She was out of commission and really needed me to be there for her and take care of her. I think it helped her realize how important it is to have someone there by your side no matter what. For someone to always have your back when the chips are down. A life partner. I feel I have demonstrated this time and time again over the years, but one more time during this new period in our lives can't hurt underscore that importance. I felt good about being there for her, but I did feel resentful at times during those weeks. Periods where I felt hurt, sad, angry, etc. Again mostly positive but with some short periods of "darkness" mainly where I allowed myself to focus on my hurt and pain and her behavior during the time of the affair. She also had complications after the surgery which required additional surgery and recovery time and yes all during a two week Christmas/New Year vacation. All in all we are doing pretty well. I think we both have a new found love and respect for each other and I need to realize we are in a different place with each other than we were before the A. Sometimes I can do that pretty easily, effortlessly, sometimes it's hard, serious work to stay upbeat and stay out of the negative vortex. I believe we are on a path to something better. She has been consistent and loving and patient as I have bounced back and forth somewhat between feeling love and closeness and intimacy and feeling betrayed, and hurt and lied to. If she waivered whatsoever when I was down and low, I don't think we'd be here today but she remained steadfast with love and compassion. her I remain committed to the goal of working through this to achieve a better healthier happier marriage for us and our family. I think we both can see what is possible when we treat each other with respect and lead with love. We also see whats possible when we don't. I think we both realize what is finally at stake and what could be lost. I realized it sooner than she did I guess and that makes it harder on me in some respects.

So basically, still working at this R thing and doing pretty well. I refuse to let things go back to the way they were. I am more communicative and more engaged in my happiness and what I want. Reading some books too has helped. 

She accepted the new job and her last day is this Friday at the old company. I am looking forward to this new begining for us both. Hoping this milestone helps us both turn the corner. We are both excited for the new year and to being able to put 2013 behind us. I see the remorse in her eyes and feel it in her heart. She realizes all the pain and suffering this whole thing has caused us both. She has accepted responsibility for it. I know there will continue to be struggles along the way. I only hope we're both strong enough to get through them for us both and our kids.

All the best. ~RS


----------



## LongWalk

You did not mention the timeline. There is someone else in R who never got one... could it be Wazza?

So, your R in marriage sounds like a partnership with a large element of blind trust. Your wife sounds like a very self confident person and it sounds like she is solid in wanting to be a better person. She wants to respect herself. Is that a fair description?

Do you feel a need to snoop through her email and telephone?


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## harrybrown

Did she ever give you the timeline?

If you had the affair, would she want that?


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## Will_Kane

Thanks for the update Road. As long as no new big lies are discovered, I think you are past the toughest part. Make sure you continue to make time for each other without the kids. Don't let things fester and don't assume the other knows or should know what you are thinking. Keep doing what you are doing and it should continue to improve.


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## Wazza

LongWalk said:


> You did not mention the timeline. There is someone else in R who never got one... could it be Wazza?
> 
> So, your R in marriage sounds like a partnership with a large element of blind trust. Your wife sounds like a very self confident person and it sounds like she is solid in wanting to be a better person. She wants to respect herself. Is that a fair description?
> 
> Do you feel a need to snoop through her email and telephone?


Lol, I never got the truth. I have a timeline, I dug it out myself. There are details I don't have, I just make some pessimistic assumptions about those.

The fact that she never came totally clean was her attempt at damage control. It backfired on her but by the time she knew that the damage was done.

I hope this isn't a provocative statement, but people around TAM put lots of faith in timelines, no contact letters, exposure and so on. These are all tools that can help if applies correctly, but the bottom line IMO is whether you can build a workable partnership with your spouse based on who they are, warts and all. Not who you wish they were.

The sad thing for me is that I know my wife to be incredibly decent, caring and moral in most ways, yet if know she is capable of looking me in the eye and lying. Sigh. That is the sad legacy of how RS's wife approached all this.


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## Thor

I think there are two benefits of a timeline, or more generally of full disclosure about the infidelity.

First, it is capitulation by the betrayer. He/she fully surrenders all resistance to the BS. There appears to genuinely be no more deception. And to be clear, the deceptions are the biggest part of the betrayal, and any withholding of information after D-Day is yet another deception.

Providing a timeline or full disclosure is the first verification that deception has ended. Over time the WS's truthfulness is verified and thus in hindsight the timeline is fully accepted as truthful.

Without the timeline or full disclosure, there is no marker in time when the BS can start believing the WS has ended deception.

The second reason is that during the period of deceptions, which extends up until full disclosure is given, the BS denies the WS a basic right to make fully informed decisions about himself and about the relationship.

The BS would likely not agree to stay with the WS if he knew everything about the affair as it was ongoing.

So now after the fact, a timeline and full disclosure give the BS the opportunity to make that fully informed choice. In some ways it is symbolic, when the BS learns the truth and then chooses to attempt R. In some ways it is substantive when the BS decides there are sufficient positives to make R worth a try.


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## sidney2718

Thor said:


> I think there are two benefits of a timeline, or more generally of full disclosure about the infidelity.
> 
> First, it is capitulation by the betrayer. He/she fully surrenders all resistance to the BS. There appears to genuinely be no more deception. And to be clear, the deceptions are the biggest part of the betrayal, and any withholding of information after D-Day is yet another deception.
> 
> Providing a timeline or full disclosure is the first verification that deception has ended. Over time the WS's truthfulness is verified and thus in hindsight the timeline is fully accepted as truthful.
> 
> Without the timeline or full disclosure, there is no marker in time when the BS can start believing the WS has ended deception.
> 
> The second reason is that during the period of deceptions, which extends up until full disclosure is given, the BS denies the WS a basic right to make fully informed decisions about himself and about the relationship.
> 
> The BS would likely not agree to stay with the WS if he knew everything about the affair as it was ongoing.
> 
> So now after the fact, a timeline and full disclosure give the BS the opportunity to make that fully informed choice. In some ways it is symbolic, when the BS learns the truth and then chooses to attempt R. In some ways it is substantive when the BS decides there are sufficient positives to make R worth a try.


I not only think that this is right, I think it is crucial. There are several threads here and on other boards where there was no full disclosure (a timeline is part of that) and so many years later the BS was still wondering about the facts. Some seem to be headed for divorce though it is more than a decade later -- a decade of being eaten alive through being denied knowlege.

No, I don't mean that the WS should disclose every detail right away. A timeline is a good thing. If the BS has questions, they should be answered in full. I do think that this is the main highway to regaining trust, to KNOW that the WS is not hiding information.


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## MEM2020

RS,
Changing jobs was by far the most critical step she needed to take in your recon. Truly Happy for you 







Road Scholar said:


> Holidays were good, thanks. I hope yours were as well.
> 
> Quick update for anyone interested. My wife had surgery scheduled over the holidays and that went fine. She was out of commission and really needed me to be there for her and take care of her. I think it helped her realize how important it is to have someone there by your side no matter what. For someone to always have your back when the chips are down. A life partner. I feel I have demonstrated this time and time again over the years, but one more time during this new period in our lives can't hurt underscore that importance. I felt good about being there for her, but I did feel resentful at times during those weeks. Periods where I felt hurt, sad, angry, etc. Again mostly positive but with some short periods of "darkness" mainly where I allowed myself to focus on my hurt and pain and her behavior during the time of the affair. She also had complications after the surgery which required additional surgery and recovery time and yes all during a two week Christmas/New Year vacation. All in all we are doing pretty well. I think we both have a new found love and respect for each other and I need to realize we are in a different place with each other than we were before the A. Sometimes I can do that pretty easily, effortlessly, sometimes it's hard, serious work to stay upbeat and stay out of the negative vortex. I believe we are on a path to something better. She has been consistent and loving and patient as I have bounced back and forth somewhat between feeling love and closeness and intimacy and feeling betrayed, and hurt and lied to. If she waivered whatsoever when I was down and low, I don't think we'd be here today but she remained steadfast with love and compassion. her I remain committed to the goal of working through this to achieve a better healthier happier marriage for us and our family. I think we both can see what is possible when we treat each other with respect and lead with love. We also see whats possible when we don't. I think we both realize what is finally at stake and what could be lost. I realized it sooner than she did I guess and that makes it harder on me in some respects.
> 
> So basically, still working at this R thing and doing pretty well. I refuse to let things go back to the way they were. I am more communicative and more engaged in my happiness and what I want. Reading some books too has helped.
> 
> She accepted the new job and her last day is this Friday at the old company. I am looking forward to this new begining for us both. Hoping this milestone helps us both turn the corner. We are both excited for the new year and to being able to put 2013 behind us. I see the remorse in her eyes and feel it in her heart. She realizes all the pain and suffering this whole thing has caused us both. She has accepted responsibility for it.  I know there will continue to be struggles along the way. I only hope we're both strong enough to get through them for us both and our kids.
> 
> All the best. ~RS


----------



## warlock07

> She was out of commission and really needed me to be there for her and take care of her. I think it helped her realize how important it is to have someone there by your side no matter what. For someone to always have your back when the chips are down. A life partner. I feel I have demonstrated this time and time again over the years, but one more time during this new period in our lives can't hurt underscore that importance. I felt good about being there for her, but I did feel resentful at times during those weeks. Periods where I felt hurt, sad, angry, etc. Again mostly positive but with some short periods of "darkness" mainly where I allowed myself to focus on my hurt and pain and her behavior during the time of the affair..


Are you patting your own back for being a "good boy" ?

I just hope you end up lucky...


----------



## WyshIknew

Good update RS.

You seem to have gone above and beyond.

How determined is she to make sure *you *heal?

She won't do a timeline despite you telling her it will help you.

Now she is leaving her place of employment would she drop the bomb on OM?

Whenever I have left a place of employment I have had a meeting with HR or had to fill in a form, letter whatever stating my reasons for leaving.

Perhaps she would consider this? Nothing too dramatic, just a simple statement of fact.

I am leaving as my boss? Mr Sleaze engaged me in a workplace affair and my husband found out.

She doesn't even have to go ahead and do it, just be *prepared* to do it for *your* healing.

"I'll do anything to help you heal and repair our marriage."

"Except this."

"Oh and that."

"Ah yes and that too."

Not saying she should go ahead with it but it would be interesting to see what occurs if you ask.

To be honest total indifference to him is the best plan of action.
As Healer says, these people are like dog shet and all you do with that is scrape it off your shoe and walk away from the stench.


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## LongWalk

Thor wrote:


> So now after the fact, a timeline and full disclosure give the BS the opportunity to make that fully informed choice. In some ways it is symbolic, when the BS learns the truth and then chooses to attempt R. In some ways it is substantive when the BS decides there are sufficient positives to make R worth a try.


This must be true. R is a gamble based on the BS deciding they are attempting something rational, unless they are simply begging for more pain in what they know is a doomed relationship.

What in the timeline is important?

1) The actual date that the affair began
Did actually begin much earlier? Could be a horrible new piece of information. It is even possible that it began later but that this, too, is in some way negative.

RS, are you satisfied in what you know about the start of the affair?

2) The lies that allowed it all
What sort of lies did she tell to make time for him? It could be that hearing some of them would make you laugh because they were out of character for her. Realizing how she lied might allow you to see her more fully, for better and worse.

Some lies might increase distrust.

3) Details about the sex and emotion
Time lines are about sex and emotion. What exactly did they do and what did she feel?

As far as the sex goes, well if she disclosed what ever attracted her to him in bed, that might be crushing. It is possible that woman enjoyed the sex more with him but loves you more. The more good sex you have with her, the more he becomes a footnote. Of course, footnotes can be as important as the main body of text.

Also, she may be loath to admit that she did something with him that she will not do with you. The husband is not allowed to have the inner slvt.

There maybe emotional betrayal. For example, she betrayed you on an anniversary date or encouraged you to do something with your children so that she could scroow him. 

RS, maybe she has told you that she felt she was in love with him. Clearly she was. What became of this love? During the 5 months of a sexless marriage was she still saving her vagina for him? Or had she lost respect for you as a man. If I recall, the switch flipped when you began to detach from her. The courage to divorce made you look like a man again.

When you are both in a good mood further discussion about the knowledge gaps could be discussed. Maybe in MC. If you are enjoying your marriage again, you could make the timeline an issue rather than the crux.

Your story is one of success. You should be proud of yourself but you will also have to remain vigilant. You have to make certain that you sex ranking does not slide because you wife clearly does not like it when you are uncertain of yourself.

p.s. It is a good thing that you keep the thread going with periodic updates, even if only once every couple of months. Keep going until all of the poster who know you are long gone. That will be a sign that your marriage has lasted a least a couple of years.


----------



## Chaparral

At this point the reason for getting an honest timeline is to find out why she refuses to write one. Unless it is just embarrassment, which I doubt, or denial, she is hiding something she doesn't think you can handle.

From what I have seen here, cheating wives that cut their husbands off do so because they are done with their husbands and are moving on to someone else. The wives in physical, thrill seeking affairs don't mind having sex with their husbands, the more the merrier although they may slow down or even speed things up wanting more or less.

If I couldn't get timeline I would ask her directly why not. Then schedule a polygraph. I am having a hard time imagining the problem with the timeline unless it started a long time before she has admitted to or maybe she had made plans to leave you that fell through when she found out he was using her.


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## Road Scholar

warlock07 said:


> Are you patting your own back for being a "good boy" ?
> 
> I just hope you end up lucky...


Yeah maybe I am. So what?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jack.c

road scholar said:


> yeah maybe i am. So what?
> _posted via mobile device_






road scholar said:


> i found out about her affair on 5.1.13. Crushed me. Still does. Married 14 years with two amazing kids i adore. After initial rage i've been trying to keep things cool but not doing a great job with my emotions. Think we're both trying. Bottom line no sex in nearly 5 months even though we were still having sex during her 2 month affair (as far as i know). The no sex thing is killing me. I'm here trying to work **** out and she needs to feel closer to me to have sex with me. Her husband (mostly good) of 14 years and together for about 20. Says she's not feeling it. Struggling with how she feels about me and doesn't feel close to me. She is obviously not willing to take one for the team and it's always sorta been this way. I always want it more and she holds all the cards. Feeling rejected again as before and trying to save my marriage for my family, me, and kids - if it can be salvaged but i feel like i need more from her.



yeah.... So what.....


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## Road Scholar

jack.c said:


> yeah.... So what.....


Yes all still very painful to think about. I can walk or I can stay. I can focus on how badly I was treated or I can focus my energy on improving how we treat each other moving forward. There are no guarantees in anything in life but the 20 years I have invested and for the most pt were good are worth fighting for. My family a d k:ids factor into the equation also
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## treyvion

Road Scholar said:


> Yes all still very painful to think about. I can walk or I can stay. I can focus on how badly I was treated or I can focus my energy on improving how we treat each other moving forward. There are no guarantees in anything in life but the 20 years I have invested and for the most pt were good are worth fighting for. My family a d k:ids factor into the equation also
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If the relationship is going to be detrimental to you, you don't have to use her for lover and wife. You can break the relationship and work with her as a co-parent.

These affair situations are notoriously difficult to get past, and cost the betrayed spouse in a lot of ways.


----------



## Wazza

treyvion said:


> If the relationship is going to be detrimental to you, you don't have to use her for lover and wife. You can break the relationship and work with her as a co-parent.
> 
> These affair situations are notoriously difficult to get past, and cost the betrayed spouse in a lot of ways.


We live in the real world. This is a difficult and painful decision, there is no fairy tale ending. Leaving your spouse when there are kids DOES impact the kids, and DOES expose them to risks. On the other hand, a dysfunctional marriage is not ideal for the kids either.

Is the affair hard to get past? Yes. Does it cost the BS? Yes. So what? It can be done. It comes at a price, but it can be done.

Should you stay? Individual choice. Those of you who chose not to stay, I respect your decision. I chose to stay, and twenty four years on it is abundantly clear to me that, for all the pain, it was the right decision for my kids, and has given me a rewarding marriage with a very special person. But if I had raised my kids, and then divorced (I considered that) I would still have felt it was right to stay.

Road, if this is what you want to do, go for it. But really go for it, no half-measures.


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## barbados

Road Scholar said:


> Yes all still very painful to think about. I can walk or I can stay. I can focus on how badly I was treated or I can focus my energy on improving how we treat each other moving forward. There are no guarantees in anything in life but the 20 years I have invested and for the most pt were good are worth fighting for. *My family a d k:ids factor into the equation also*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 But they didn't factor into the equation for her, did they ? You still seem content to rug sweep this. Your update post was full of self imposed blame shifting and rug sweeping. 

The thought of maybe having to end the marriage, and live a different life moving forward was to difficult for you to deal with, so you forgave her without her having to do any real heavy lifting. 

You never got a timeline, and you most likely never will. You have allowed her to dictate some terms, but a truly remorseful wayward does not get that privilege until its earned !


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## LongWalk

RS,

Perhaps as you feel more secure in your marriage you will see opportunities to discuss the affair from time to time. I think you should tell your wife that you will have a need to talk about it. It cannot be a forbidden subject. However, you can tell her that you are working to make it less important.

Your wife has strong personality. She knows it. You are attracted to her. She has fallen in love with you again. Do you feel she loves you differently? Do you think she feels you are erasing whatever magic he exerted over her?

Does she feel betrayed by him?

There is a guy who doesn't post so much Southsideirish whose British wife had an affair with a judge. She was completely in love the judge, but once the judge had to dump her to avoid scandal, the wife was very depressed. After months horrible R, she called the judge Voldemort, after the Harry Potter evil character.

He never took much of a hard line with his WW so their reconcilation seemed to have a large B plan stamped on it. Sometimes the B plan can stand for B as in "better". 

I imagine that some night after you have made love to your wife, and you are feeling open and warm, you ought to be able to ask your wife about something concerning the affair. She ought to be able to trust you and just spit it out. You ought to be able to laugh and accept whatever revelation is in it with matter of fact confidence. It ought to strengthen you relationship. You may need to perform these small tests.


----------



## treyvion

Wazza said:


> We live in the real world. This is a difficult and painful decision, there is no fairy tale ending. Leaving your spouse when there are kids DOES impact the kids, and DOES expose them to risks. On the other hand, a dysfunctional marriage is not ideal for the kids either.
> 
> Is the affair hard to get past? Yes. Does it cost the BS? Yes. So what? It can be done. It comes at a price, but it can be done.


I live in the real world too and have been mucking around with affair land since 2007. From 2001-2003 I was a cheater of my own self in another situation.

What I learned is you cannot support them, because they cannot feel the impact of their pain. Until they can feel the impact and understand the betrayal cost, you aren't really doing anything by taking them back.

Subjecting your children to a bad relationship isn't better for the kids.



Wazza said:


> Should you stay? Individual choice. Those of you who chose not to stay, I respect your decision. I chose to stay, and twenty four years on it is abundantly clear to me that, for all the pain, it was the right decision for my kids, and has given me a rewarding marriage with a very special person. But if I had raised my kids, and then divorced (I considered that) I would still have felt it was right to stay.
> 
> Road, if this is what you want to do, go for it. But really go for it, no half-measures.


My response is to LOOK AT THE STATS. It usually does not work, and the cheater comes home even more self centered and more entitled. The empowered themself at your expense and never let it go.

You may give yourself a chance by truly seperating and not helping them out. One to two years. I wouldn't talk to them very often.

Let them taste the world as a true single and see how foul it is. Then they will know what they had at home. Until then, they never know.


----------



## Wazza

treyvion said:


> I live in the real world too and have been mucking around with affair land since 2007. From 2001-2003 I was a cheater of my own self in another situation.
> 
> What I learned is you cannot support them, because they cannot feel the impact of their pain. Until they can feel the impact and understand the betrayal cost, you aren't really doing anything by taking them back.
> 
> Subjecting your children to a bad relationship isn't better for the kids.
> 
> 
> 
> My response is to LOOK AT THE STATS. It usually does not work, and the cheater comes home even more self centered and more entitled. The empowered themself at your expense and never let it go.
> 
> You may give yourself a chance by truly seperating and not helping them out. One to two years. I wouldn't talk to them very often.
> 
> Let them taste the world as a true single and see how foul it is. Then they will know what they had at home. Until then, they never know.


Id like to see comprehensive and detailed stats. Not aware of any. Post a link to yours and let's discuss them.

As for the kids....real scenario. Stepfather goes to jail for filming his teenage step daughter naked via webcam. Was she better off that her father left? My kids never faced that risk.

How to get through to cheater? That's a complex question, but is it necessary to do so immediately? And if so why? My wife didn't get it at the time. She blamed me. It took a long time to heal. But we did. Of course that is just one case.

I am not saying reconciliation always works, or is a bed of roses. But it can work, and it can be better.


----------



## bfree

There is something to be said for persistence so long as it's not confused with misplaced stubbornness.


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## warlock07

Road Scholar said:


> Yeah maybe I am. So what?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think it is a painful and a sad situation to look at.


----------



## LongWalk

RS have portrayed his wife quite well, perhaps not entirely objectively but pretty well. The fact that he comes back to post is important. TAM is a kind of litmus test. He can sound off here and get feedback that is necessary.

His wife is remorseful but she has pride. She will not be abject in her relationship with him. She is not that sort of person. That is part of what makes her attractive. She is ultimately a moral person if we go by what he has written.

RS,

What do you wonder most about the affair?

The 5 months of sexless reconciliation?


----------



## LongWalk

RS has portrayed his wife quite well, perhaps not entirely objectively but pretty well. The fact that he comes back to post is important. TAM is a kind of litmus test. He can sound off here and get feedback that is necessary.

His wife is remorseful but she has pride. She will not be abject in her relationship with him. She is not that sort of person. That is part of what makes her attractive. She is ultimately a moral person if we go by what he has written.

RS,

What do you wonder most about the affair?

The 5 months of sexless reconciliation?


----------



## LongWalk

Road Scholar said:


> Day-to-day is fine I guess.... We are still living together and in the same space and still raising our kids and I guess trying to be normal and happy with the kids until we figure out the next move. Getting kids to activities, off to school, etc. When we talk about stuff we usually will go up to the bedroom or walk outside and sit on the patio. We're trying to keep things away from the kids but we are talking a lot more then ever before and yes even hugging more. They have noticed and made comments. I think they are both worried about what's going on. They have seen a change in the last 6 mos.
> 
> Saturday am is when she told me she was with him physically "once" during the 5 months. I guess we all know it was more than that and my gut could have told me when exactly as I sensed something was up on certain days or when she would go off to work all happy and dress up. It's all she could bring herself to tell me at the time I guess - trickle truth? She said she is petrified about what I will do with the information. She is afraid that the next piece of truth will be the straw that broke the camel's back. That is when I pointed out to her again that she hasn't done anything that I asked her to do. I walked out of the room twice out of frustration and said let's just get it over with and file. At some point during the discussion, she tried telling me that work would not care about the affair. I let her know I disagreed and that misuse of company assets just about anywhere is grounds for termination. Basically we are in an at will state. Employment at will. If they want to get rid of you they will. At one point in the conversation she actually had the nerve to tell me we both screwed up during the 5 months. I said maybe but I gave it everything I had and you were barely there with me except to console me when I was on the verge of or having a panic attack. I was in the game fighting for our marriage and you remained on the sidelines rooting for the other team. It was really hell for a long time just functioning day to day. Getting through a work day was a huge accomplishment early on after DDay 1. Anyhow, she was a crying mess on Saturday after we went for a walk to the park with the kids. I was not overly affectionate but I consoled her back at the house and sat outside with her for an hour or so trying to both decompress. I still love this woman as f****d up as that is. And, it feels right to do at the time but I wonder afterwards If I am being the NICE GUY again and should not be consoling to her. Am I letting her back in too easily again? I am no longer emotional about this oddly. I mean it is a hard situation but I don't cry in front of her at all anymore. Don't feel like it. It's almost as if she cannot hurt me anymore that what has already been done and I'm just waiting to see if this can be fixed.
> 
> She has been pretty distraught about this since I found out the affair was still going almost 2 weeks ago. I find myself wondering what is really driving the emotions. How bad she screwed up? What she has now become (a cheating spouse)? Just the bad state of affairs of our marriage? Does she miss him and feels like she's breaking up with him in addition to everything else going to sh*t? Is she fearful that work and friends and family will find everything out? Or, truly remorseful about what she has done to me and our family. Or all of the above?
> 
> We are sleeping in the same bed and having sex again so it's not completely an unloving or toxic environment, which is a weird balance of holding her accountable for her actions without pushing her away totally. I can't say I'm all in yet and I'm not all out either. Limbo I guess but seeing progress forward I think.
> 
> She worked on the resume for 3 or 4 hours yesterday and again today. She is definitely showing an effort and being nice to me. She is going out of her way to show me she cares and is willing to do what it takes to make things right. This is a change from the first 5 months. I do wonder how long she can keep it up. I also find myself not trusting anything she says after she says it. This morning she said, "If you're thinking I am going to contact him or talk to him, just put it out of your head because that's the furthest thing from what I want or what I'm working towards right now."
> 
> I'm not being needy, depressed, harpy really either. We didn't discuss the affair this weekend except on Saturday am. I don't throw it in her face - or I don't try to. I honestly struggle with the last 5 months more not that the initial affair. To me that's a deeper level of betrayal and deceit that the initial affair. Knowing just how badly she hurt me the first time around, she was willing to do it and risk it all again. Not just hurting me but risking our family and our life for a fantasy. My brother called it pathetic like a guy "falling in love" with a stripper and leaving his family for her. Total fantasy. That may end up being my deal breaker - but I'm still trying for now.
> 
> Thanks to all for your posts!


Worth re-reading.


----------



## Wazza

I decided my example of webcamming step father, while true and real (it was an acquaintance, a friend of a friend) was not enough, so I hung out in Google.

Consider this:


> Fatal batterings of small children
> 
> This most severe category of child maltreatment exhibits Cinderella effects of the greatest magnitude: in several countries, stepparents beat very young children to death at per capita rates that are more than 100 times higher than the corresponding rates for genetic parents.
> The most thorough analyses are for Canada, where data in a national archive of all homicides known to police indicate that children under 5 years of age were beaten to death by their putative genetic fathers at a rate of 2.6 deaths per million child-years at risk (residing with their fathers) in 1974-1990, while the corresponding rate for stepfathers was over 120 times greater at 321.6 deaths per million child-years at risk (Daly & Wilson 2001). Note that because few small children have stepfathers, this rate differential does not, in itself, convey anything about the absolute numbers of victims; what these rates represent are 74 fatal batterings by genetic fathers in 28.3 million child-years at risk, and 55 by stepfathers in 0.17 million child-years at risk.


From : http://www.cep.ucsb.edu/buller/cinderella effect facts.pdf


----------



## jack.c

Wazza said:


> We live in the real world. This is a difficult and painful decision, there is no fairy tale ending. Leaving your spouse when there are kids DOES impact the kids, and DOES expose them to risks. On the other hand, a dysfunctional marriage is not ideal for the kids either.
> 
> Is the affair hard to get past? Yes. Does it cost the BS? Yes. So what? It can be done. It comes at a price, but it can be done.
> 
> Should you stay? Individual choice. Those of you who chose not to stay, I respect your decision. I chose to stay, and twenty four years on it is abundantly clear to me that, for all the pain, it was the right decision for my kids, and has given me a rewarding marriage with a very special person. But if I had raised my kids, and then divorced (I considered that) I would still have felt it was right to stay.
> 
> Road, if this is what you want to do, go for it. But really go for it, no half-measures.



well, i guess it all depends on how a person can live what life offers... if i can wake up in the morning and look at the mirror without sadness but only happyness, then fine.... but if I NEED to do it and see the opposite, then its something that i will never understand... and why should i live this way?
Personaly, i started to see a happy face when i kicked my ex's ars out of my life, without looking back.
But i admire who has that strenght to try R. despite the mirror....


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## Wazza

jack.c said:


> well, i guess it all depends on how a person can live what life offers... if i can wake up in the morning and look at the mirror without sadness but only happyness, then fine.... but if I NEED to do it and see the opposite, then its something that i will never understand... and why should i live this way?
> Personaly, i started to see a happy face when i kicked my ex's ars out of my life, without looking back.
> But i admire who has that strenght to try R. despite the mirror....


I am wary of making emotional arguments. The link I posted is a small minority, very small. But would your happiness of being free of your cheating spouse override your sorrow if her next romantic partner killed your children?

I understand post affair pain. I remember walking into the house after work, seeing my spouse, and having to turn around and walk our again. Decades after the fact, I type these words, I remember how it felt, and I feel like crying.

But we rebuilt something that was good, and strong, and beautiful. And the starting point of this was that I made a decision, as I saw it, to put my children's happiness ahead of my own. And I know others who have experienced the same thing. 

I didn't post to put a guilt trip in those who walk. Staying together after an affair is at best hard and at worst impossible. But Road Scholar has decided to try. I see lots of good reasons, and I will support him, not try to talk him out of it.


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## bfree

Wazza, I completely understand your point and off I were placed in that situation I'm not totally sure how I'd decide to proceed. But you also cannot live in fear of the unknown. There are do many dangersfacing people every day. Should I not let my children out if the house because they could potentially be struck by a car? You choose your path and thank God it has worked out to everyone's benefit. It also could have been a disaster and the tension and fighting could have traumatized your children if you and your wife had not been reasonable and loving parents. It's really all subjective and relative to individual cases.


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## jack.c

bfree said:


> Wazza, I completely understand your point and off I were placed in that situation I'm not totally sure how I'd decide to proceed. But you also cannot live in fear of the unknown. There are do many dangersfacing people every day. Should I not let my children out if the house because they could potentially be struck by a car? You choose your path and thank God it has worked out to everyone's benefit. It also could have been a disaster and the tension and fighting could have traumatized your children if you and your wife had not been reasonable and loving parents. It's really all subjective and relative to individual cases.


EXATLY. Now, like i said, i admire who can manage to R. even if they are going through hell, but its just not me.
When i saw with my eyeballs what happend with my ex, i already knew that nothing in the world can erase that immage. Even now after decades i still have disgust, and i live a different and much happier life! 
The point is in order to be a positive person, you need to live a positive life.... seeking deep in your innerself will give you the answer, but it depends on us to listen to it.


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## carmen ohio

Road Scholar said:


> Holidays were good, thanks. I hope yours were as well.
> 
> Quick update for anyone interested. My wife had surgery scheduled over the holidays and that went fine. She was out of commission and really needed me to be there for her and take care of her. I think it helped her realize how important it is to have someone there by your side no matter what. For someone to always have your back when the chips are down. A life partner. I feel I have demonstrated this time and time again over the years, but one more time during this new period in our lives can't hurt underscore that importance. I felt good about being there for her, but I did feel resentful at times during those weeks. Periods where I felt hurt, sad, angry, etc. Again mostly positive but with some short periods of "darkness" mainly where I allowed myself to focus on my hurt and pain and her behavior during the time of the affair. She also had complications after the surgery which required additional surgery and recovery time and yes all during a two week Christmas/New Year vacation. All in all we are doing pretty well. I think we both have a new found love and respect for each other and I need to realize we are in a different place with each other than we were before the A. Sometimes I can do that pretty easily, effortlessly, sometimes it's hard, serious work to stay upbeat and stay out of the negative vortex. I believe we are on a path to something better. She has been consistent and loving and patient as I have bounced back and forth somewhat between feeling love and closeness and intimacy and feeling betrayed, and hurt and lied to. If she waivered whatsoever when I was down and low, I don't think we'd be here today but she remained steadfast with love and compassion. her I remain committed to the goal of working through this to achieve a better healthier happier marriage for us and our family. I think we both can see what is possible when we treat each other with respect and lead with love. We also see whats possible when we don't. I think we both realize what is finally at stake and what could be lost. I realized it sooner than she did I guess and that makes it harder on me in some respects.
> 
> So basically, still working at this R thing and doing pretty well. I refuse to let things go back to the way they were. I am more communicative and more engaged in my happiness and what I want. Reading some books too has helped.
> 
> She accepted the new job and her last day is this Friday at the old company. I am looking forward to this new begining for us both. Hoping this milestone helps us both turn the corner. We are both excited for the new year and to being able to put 2013 behind us. I see the remorse in her eyes and feel it in her heart. She realizes all the pain and suffering this whole thing has caused us both. She has accepted responsibility for it. I know there will continue to be struggles along the way. I only hope we're both strong enough to get through them for us both and our kids.
> 
> All the best. ~RS


Dear Road Scholar, 

I am very happy to learn that you had a good Holiday and that things are going well with you. You are doing the right thing by focusing on the positive aspect of your marriage while remaining vigilant.

I hope that you will keep us posted from time to time and I wish God's blessing on you and your family.


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## Wazza

bfree said:


> Wazza, I completely understand your point and off I were placed in that situation I'm not totally sure how I'd decide to proceed. But you also cannot live in fear of the unknown. There are do many dangersfacing people every day. Should I not let my children out if the house because they could potentially be struck by a car? You choose your path and thank God it has worked out to everyone's benefit. It also could have been a disaster and the tension and fighting could have traumatized your children if you and your wife had not been reasonable and loving parents. It's really all subjective and relative to individual cases.


I agree, it's case by case and there could be problems either way. It's a hell of a decision.

I was responding to Trevyion who I felt was trying to talk Road Scholar out of trying. 

There is fear of the unknown.....what could happen if you divorce....and there is fear of the unknown...whether you will be able to successfully reconcile. Risks both sides.

But you can....I did....make a decision that you will be strong, and will not visit the tension on your kids. You are right in as much as Mrs Wazza didn't do that either, but for a few years there she put a lot of crap on me.


----------



## bfree

And had you been a different man Wazza that crap she put on you could have backfired and things could have blown up. I'm thankful that didn't happen. Each person has to weigh their own choices. If RS chooses to try to reconcile I am going to support him all I can. But we also need to advise him of the traps and pitfalls he is going to face. And we have to inform him off the ways he can potentially navigate the rocky waters he is approaching.


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## Thor

Staying with a WS out of fear that her next man might kill your children is not R.


----------



## Openminded

R is always a work in progress. And never feel it can't happen again. I was in R for 30 years between incident one and incident two. Is it possible my ex-husband and his AP were in contact off and on during those 30 years and I didn't know it? Absolutely -- although I would have said "no" to that idea during that time. 

I'm not pro-R, because of my own experience, but there are people who make it succeed. You obviously are always taking a chance when you R. Sometimes you are right and sometimes you are wrong. But regardless of whether you succeed the innocence is gone forever.


----------



## Road Scholar

LongWalk said:


> RS have portrayed his wife quite well, perhaps not entirely objectively but pretty well. The fact that he comes back to post is important. TAM is a kind of litmus test. He can sound off here and get feedback that is necessary.
> 
> His wife is remorseful but she has pride. She will not be abject in her relationship with him. She is not that sort of person. That is part of what makes her attractive. She is ultimately a moral person if we go by what he has written.
> 
> RS,
> 
> What do you wonder most about the affair?
> 
> The 5 months of sexless reconciliation?


The 5 months after my initial discovery is what I struggle with the most I think. 

She knew how badly it destroyed me. How hard it was on me. At that point though she likely saw me as a different person than she saw me for most or our lives together. She saw our relationship differently. She convinced herself she did not love me or maybe never did feel the kind of love she was feeling with him. She only focused on our problems. She thought I was probably weak and unattractive. 

She blew things way out of proportion. The negative was amplified, the positive good times minimized all part of helping her rationalize her behavior. Life is short and she deserved to be happy I'm sure she thought. But the dishonesty during that time is really tough. We were going to marriage counseling almost every week. Meanwhile she was still talking to and seeing and sleeping with him. Although not regularly she may have slept with him another 5-10 times during the 5 months. She claims that it was ending. That they were trying to stop seeing each other but that she was not strong enough. Whatever that means. 

Part of what bothers me is just how she lost all attraction to me during that time or over time. I don't want this to be viewed as arrogance but I'm not an unattractive person and I feel I am a fun, fun loving guy. I come from a good family. I make a very good living. I am a good father and pretty good husband. I have faults too and am far from perfect but most boxes are check to be considered a "good catch". She lost sight these things and demonized me to an extent. Part of her still loved me, loved the "person I am", but she really fell in love with someone else and out of love with me. At least during that time.

I struggle with how quickly she fell back in love with me when I told her I was filing for divorce. Does it work like that? Can the switch all of the sudden just flip back on? Part of me doesn't trust it. I now know what an accomplished liar she is. 

I tell myself the 5 months maybe was needed to bring positive energy back to our relationship to show her that things were not as bad as she made them out to be. Time for me to prove my love for her since she felt I did not really love her. Who knows if that's true. She felt indifference. We both did. Maybe that time allowed her to detach from him if even a little and start to feel a tug back in my direction.

Some people here have called what I'm thinking aloud and writing as rug sweeping and rationalizing and maybe to some extent it is. We rationalize almost everything we do to justify it. But I don't want to focus on the affair all the time. I think about it enough. I try to come to terms with certain aspects of it a little at a time. I'm trying to forgive her and realize we are all imperfect people. I'm trying to be happy together and love each other and for the most part we are succeeding. 

It hasn't been dysfunctional at all. Sometimes there is tension and sad times and tough talks but I would not call that dysfunctional. I look at it as two people that have hurt each other but still love each other trying to work through an incredibly tough situation. 

She is thankful I am giving this another chance. She has told me that the time she is able to spend with me now is a gift and she will always look at it as such regardless what happens with us. She holds herself accountable for what she did and cannot believe it herself. She is remorseful. She triggers too based on hearing people talk of affairs or cheaters. I don't understand fully all that she is going through and she cannot understand fully what I am going through or the depth of pain her betrayal has caused. But I'm getting through it and moving on. We're both trying to stay together to help each other heal and be happy together with a rewarding and fulfilling marriage and closeness and intimacy we have both wanted.

Sometimes something must die for something else to take it's place I was told recently. Our old marriage and relationship is dead and we're working to build a better one moving forward positively. 

I don't know that we'll get there but it's a worthy goal for us.

Live like your dying.

Thanks, RS


----------



## Wazza

Thor said:


> Staying with a WS out of fear that her next man might kill your children is not R.


No, but considering the benefits that might accrue to your kids if you can work it out is a reason to try. It was an extreme (though real) example to make a point.

Here's the deeper point. When you decide the relationship is not a consumer transaction, and instead view it as a promise you made and have to keep, good things can come. Deep things. For it to work, both of you have to be that way. Both of you have to seriously try.

Road Scholar has said it is not just between him and his wife. His kids are a factor. I agree.


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## Wazza

Webcamming perverts and murderers are extreme examples. Being a bit more broad:

How divorcing parents delude themselves about the effect on children: Only a fifth of youngsters say they're happy after split | Mail Online

http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/fcs/pdfs/fcs482.pdf

Is Divorce Bad for Children? - Scientific American


Tons more on the web. Some articles focus on how to minimise the damage, but I don't think I have seen a single article denying the potential for damage.

All this has to be balanced against the toxicity of the parents relationship. I am not saying reconciliation is always possible or even desirable. I am just saying that your happiness at leaving the marriage trades off against potential impact to your children. By staying and working things out, you can avoid that impact.

This is not intended as a challenge to anyone who chose divorce. There are no easy choices in this area. But we aren't having a complete discussion of the topic unless we consider these awkward truths.


----------



## warlock07

I struggle with how quickly she fell back in love with me when I told her I was filing for divorce. Does it work like that? Can the switch all of the sudden just flip back on? Part of me doesn't trust it. I now know what an accomplished liar she is. 

I think the switch was about preserving her image, in front of family - especially her father who was cheated upon by her mother and probably the kids.

I've asked this repeatedly but do you think she will come clean with her father if you ask her to ? 

Most successfully reconciling WS on this board came clean to their family after the affair. Do you think this can happen in you case ?

The reason I am repeatedly asking you about this is, I think she is managing you. She is managing your emotions and the situation. She gave you a bit here and there to keep you quiet for the moment. And probably the affair is on hold and stopped for now. She keeps lying which you rationalized as her guilt talking. For her reasons are not clear. What changed when you threatened divorce ? Why did she get so comfortable lying and deceiving you ? And she was even faithful to her OM by not having sex with you. I don't know how you go on without answers to any of these.



> She knew how badly it destroyed me. How hard it was on me. At that point though* she likely* saw me as a different person than she saw me for most or our lives together. She saw our relationship differently. She convinced herself she did not love me or maybe never did feel the kind of love she was feeling with him. She only focused on our problems. She thought I was probably weak and unattractive.
> 
> She blew things way out of proportion. The negative was amplified, the positive good times minimized all part of helping her rationalize her behavior. *Life is short and she deserved to be happy I'm sure she thought.* But the dishonesty during that time is really tough. We were going to marriage counseling almost every week. Meanwhile she was still talking to and seeing and sleeping with him*. Although not regularly she may have slept with him another 5-10 times during the 5 months.* She claims that it was ending. That they were trying to stop seeing each other but that she was not strong enough. Whatever that means


You still don't know a lot about her affair. Except that she is lying. The affair ill always be that sweet memory in her mind. By not insisting that she come clean about everything, I I think this will be an issue in the long term


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## Syco

warlock07 said:


> The reason I am repeatedly asking you about this is, I think she is managing you. She is managing your emotions and the situation. She gave you a bit here and there to keep you quiet for the moment. And probably the affair is on hold and stopped for now. She keeps lying which you rationalized as her guilt talking. For her reasons are not clear. What changed when you threatened divorce ? Why did she get so comfortable lying and deceiving you ? And she was even faithful to her OM by not having sex with you. I don't know how you go on without answers to any of these.
> 
> You still don't know one bit about her affair. Except that she is lying. The affair ill always be that sweet memory in her mind. By not insisting that she come clean about everything, I I think this will be an issue in the long term


:iagree: :iagree:


----------



## Thor

Wazza said:


> No, but considering the benefits that might accrue to your kids if you can work it out is a reason to try. It was an extreme (though real) example to make a point.
> 
> Here's the deeper point. When you decide the relationship is not a consumer transaction, and instead view it as a promise you made and have to keep, good things can come. Deep things. For it to work, both of you have to be that way. Both of you have to seriously try.
> 
> Road Scholar has said it is not just between him and his wife. His kids are a factor. I agree.


The deal is broken when one party fails to abide by the agreement. The BS is no longer under any moral obligation to keep promises about staying together.

As far as staying for the kids, there is always that calculation. If the calculation is to stay solely to avoid harm coming to the children it is not an R at all. We have some men here who have no intention of staying after the nest empties, and they have no real relationship with their WW. Sad.

Ironically, I made the calculation 20+ years ago to stay in a bad marriage because I did not want my then infant daughter to potentially be molested by a future step-father. Yet the very last thing my wife would have done is get remarried, due to her own child sex abuse history. My biggest fear was in fact the least likely scenario!

I've come to the conclusion that children should be a tie-breaker in the decision, nothing more. Staying together in a bad marriage does a lot of harm to kids. If it cannot be a good marriage, leave.


----------



## lordmayhem

I don't think theres any more to see here. He's bound and determined to R no matter what is said here. Thats his choice. No need for another 20 pages to convince him otherwise. The test will be if she's consistently remorseful over time. So for now, only time will tell.


----------



## Nucking Futs

lordmayhem said:


> I don't think theres any more to see here. He's bound and determined to R no matter what is said here. Thats his choice. No need for another 20 pages to convince him otherwise. *The test will be if she's consistently remorseful over time. So for now, only time will tell.*


Or when he catches her again.


----------



## treyvion

Thor said:


> The deal is broken when one party fails to abide by the agreement. The BS is no longer under any moral obligation to keep promises about staying together.
> 
> As far as staying for the kids, there is always that calculation. If the calculation is to stay solely to avoid harm coming to the children it is not an R at all. We have some men here who have no intention of staying after the nest empties, and they have no real relationship with their WW. Sad.
> 
> Ironically, I made the calculation 20+ years ago to stay in a bad marriage because I did not want my then infant daughter to potentially be molested by a future step-father. Yet the very last thing my wife would have done is get remarried, due to her own child sex abuse history. My biggest fear was in fact the least likely scenario!
> 
> I've come to the conclusion that children should be a tie-breaker in the decision, nothing more. Staying together in a bad marriage does a lot of harm to kids. If it cannot be a good marriage, leave.


So you stayed in a bad relationship to prevent the possibility of molestation of your daughter. Did you find a lover outside of the relationship to take care of that part of you?


----------



## Wazza

Thor said:


> The deal is broken when one party fails to abide by the agreement. The BS is no longer under any moral obligation to keep promises about staying together.
> 
> As far as staying for the kids, there is always that calculation. If the calculation is to stay solely to avoid harm coming to the children it is not an R at all. We have some men here who have no intention of staying after the nest empties, and they have no real relationship with their WW. Sad.
> 
> Ironically, I made the calculation 20+ years ago to stay in a bad marriage because I did not want my then infant daughter to potentially be molested by a future step-father. Yet the very last thing my wife would have done is get remarried, due to her own child sex abuse history. My biggest fear was in fact the least likely scenario!
> 
> I've come to the conclusion that children should be a tie-breaker in the decision, nothing more. Staying together in a bad marriage does a lot of harm to kids. If it cannot be a good marriage, leave.


I agree with what you wrote here. In the context of infidelity "promise" was the wrong word to use. I agree. It is so hurtful, so damaging, that it does release the BS.

I was able to make, at first, a functional coparenting and cohabiting arrangement with occasional sex. For the first few years after the affair that was it.

Over time we gradually rebuilt. And now what we have is very good, but not perfect. The perfect does not exist.

So, two things I would say to RS from my journey.

The first is, this is not your fault. She didn't have an affair because you are not good enough. She did it because she is not good enough

The second is, if you are going to stay married, go for the best relationship you can, boots and all, but it will take time. This is, I think, Thoe's point. Reconciliation is not Jair staying for the kids, or anything else. It is working to have a wonderful relationship.

The success of all this is not in you alone, it is also on her.


----------



## lordmayhem

Wazza said:


> This is, I think, Thoe's point. Reconciliation is not Jair staying for the kids, or anything else. It is working to have a wonderful relationship.
> 
> The success of all this is not in you alone, it is also on her.


:iagree:

Using the kids to manipulate the BS into R is by far, the most common manipulation tactic ever. Its seen in literally dozens of threads here.


----------



## Wazza

lordmayhem said:


> :iagree:
> 
> Using the kids to manipulate the BS into R is by far, the most common manipulation tactic ever. Its seen in literally dozens of threads here.


I cannot speak for anyone else. I can only say that for me it was my decision. My wife did not even get input to it.

I don't think manipulation would have worked. It is precisely the fact that my wife is at her core decent and not manipulative that made reconciliation possible. There was someone there who, despite her faults, I could work with and love. 

That's another part of why it is a personal decision. Because each relationship is different. Thing is though, none if us went into marriage expecting our partners to cheat. 

So you find yourself in this situation where your spouse has shown this side of her you never thought existed, this vile side that you would never have married if that was the core of who she was. Your whole judgement of her is called into question. Everything you thought you knew is in doubt. And you are hurting. In the midst of this, I doubt anyone can be totally logical about what sort future the relationship might hold. You have to just go with your gut. Think as much as you can, but go with your gut.


----------



## Road Scholar

warlock07 said:


> I struggle with how quickly she fell back in love with me when I told her I was filing for divorce. Does it work like that? Can the switch all of the sudden just flip back on? Part of me doesn't trust it. I now know what an accomplished liar she is.
> 
> I think the switch was about preserving her image, in front of family - especially her father who was cheated upon by her mother and probably the kids.
> 
> I've asked this repeatedly but do you think she will come clean with her father if you ask her to ?
> 
> Most successfully reconciling WS on this board came clean to their family after the affair. Do you think this can happen in you case ?
> 
> 
> The reason I am repeatedly asking you about this is, I think she is managing you. She is managing your emotions and the situation. She gave you a bit here and there to keep you quiet for the moment. And probably the affair is on hold and stopped for now. She keeps lying which you rationalized as her guilt talking. For her reasons are not clear. What changed when you threatened divorce ? Why did she get so comfortable lying and deceiving you ? And she was even faithful to her OM by not having sex with you. I don't know how you go on without answers to any of these.
> 
> 
> 
> You still don't know a lot about her affair. Except that she is lying. The affair ill always be that sweet memory in her mind. By not insisting that she come clean about everything, I I think this will be an issue in the long term


Warlock, I don't believe it is a sweet memory any more. Perhaps it once was but I feel it brings nothing but pain and remorse when we discuss it. 

I think if I asked her to tell her parents that she would. At one point early after DDay2 I did ask and she reached for the phone to call her Dad that night. I stopped her as it was late and I wasn't sure I really wanted her to at that point. She might not have gone through with it anyhow. Bottom line is I guess I am torn about it. If folks here feel it is critical in the healing process while working toward reconciling I have no issue with making that a deal breaker, but I also don't want to humiliate her to her family unneccessarily. I don't want to "punish" her. She is beating herself up already pretty good I think. If by disclosing to her family it improves our odds of successfully reconciling then I would do it yesterday. I'm trying not to be vengeful and take a negative approach to this. I feel that could blow up in my face and send me down a rabbit hole of rage and negativity. I feel the same way about exposing the POS at work. Today is her last day there and the urge is strong to out this guy who was her partner in destroying my life. I have gone back and forth on that point for months. 

I put him on cheaterville was my only real retaliation toward him. I feel he deserves much more and he asked for it and was forewarned about just what I was prepared to do. I just don't know that I want to give in to the hatred for him. Violence begets violence, love and forgiveness begets love and foregiveness, etc.

TAM is a great sounding board as LongWalk mentioned. I don't want to make the same mistakes I have made and I do want to be able to successfully reconcile if that is even possible after all this crap. At the end of the day, will I still feel the same way about her? Unless she continues to kiss my arse as she has been will I still remain in love with her? Will the resentment take over or will I be able to forgive and move on and be able to let this period of time as horrible as it's been be a catalyst for a better relationship with my wife and a wake up call to me.

Yeah time will tell. I'm going to try to stay focused on my goal for now and push for more details as time moves on. Would like to hear opinions on disclosure to family at this point nearly 11 months after the affair started, 9 months after false R, 4 mos after the A really ended and 4 mos into what I feel is a true R.


----------



## turnera

I don't believe in taking back a cheater UNLESS they go to their parents and admit what they did. The humility it takes to do that, I feel, is imperative for the cheater to really understand the gravity of what they did. And it's a good test. If they aren't willing to look their parents in the eyes and admit it, they aren't sincere.


----------



## bfree

RS, your mindset it's all wrong. You use words like humiliation and vengeful instead of using words like responsibility, honesty and (as turnera suggests) humility. Why is that? You didn't have an affair. Why are you so concerned with how your actions and relationship safety measures will be seen?


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## bfree

RS, let me ask you this. If one if your children did something wrong would you help them hide their crime? If you did something wrong wouldn't you do the right thing and confess? How is confessing and asking for forgiveness a bad thing? Did she cheat on her father? No. But her actions very much could have and still possible could affect his life couldn't they? Shouldn't he know? Furthermore, if he has any influence on your wife why wouldn't you want him to know so that he can help keep her objective and honest. Wouldn't positive influence from someone she respects help your chances of reconciliation? Better yet, if she is serious about reconciliation why wouldn't she want to make an all out effort and give it the best chance possible. I would think she would welcome any and all positive influences in her life.


----------



## Thor

treyvion said:


> So you stayed in a bad relationship to prevent the possibility of molestation of your daughter. Did you find a lover outside of the relationship to take care of that part of you?


Yes. No.

I was ready to walk when suddenly she got pregnant. The doc said it was not going to happen if it hadn't yet (fertility meds). She literally begged me to try one more time, and yes she get preggers. I am 100% sure it is mine, btw.

My goal was always to "fix" the marriage, not simply survive until the child graduated high school. But had there not been a child I would have walked back then. The determining factor was not wanting my baby girl to face the risks of having a step-dad.


----------



## Will_Kane

Road Scholar said:


> Warlock, I don't believe it is a sweet memory any more. Perhaps it once was but I feel it brings nothing but pain and remorse when we discuss it.
> 
> *I think if I asked her to tell her parents that she would. At one point early after DDay2 I did ask and she reached for the phone to call her Dad that night. I stopped her as it was late and I wasn't sure I really wanted her to at that point.* She might not have gone through with it anyhow. Bottom line is I guess I am torn about it. If folks here feel it is critical in the healing process while working toward reconciling I have no issue with making that a deal breaker, but I also don't want to humiliate her to her family unneccessarily. I don't want to "punish" her. She is beating herself up already pretty good I think. If by disclosing to her family it improves our odds of successfully reconciling then I would do it yesterday. I'm trying not to be vengeful and take a negative approach to this. I feel that could blow up in my face and send me down a rabbit hole of rage and negativity. I feel the same way about exposing the POS at work. *Today is her last day there and the urge is strong to out this guy* who was her partner in destroying my life. I have gone back and forth on that point for months.
> 
> I put him on cheaterville was my only real retaliation toward him. * I feel he deserves much more and he asked for it and was forewarned about just what I was prepared to do*. I just don't know that I want to give in to the hatred for him. Violence begets violence, love and forgiveness begets love and foregiveness, etc.
> 
> TAM is a great sounding board as LongWalk mentioned. I don't want to make the same mistakes I have made and I do want to be able to successfully reconcile if that is even possible after all this crap. At the end of the day, will I still feel the same way about her? Unless she continues to kiss my arse as she has been will I still remain in love with her? Will the resentment take over or will I be able to forgive and move on and be able to let this period of time as horrible as it's been be a catalyst for a better relationship with my wife and a wake up call to me.
> 
> Yeah time will tell. I'm going to try to stay focused on my goal for now and *push for more details as time moves on*. Would like to hear opinions on disclosure to family at this point nearly 11 months after the affair started, 9 months after false R, 4 mos after the A really ended and 4 mos into what I feel is a true R.


My wife was a snot-blowing hysterical mess when I confronted her. Anything I asked her to do, she did. A lot of stuff she did without me asking.

I didn't ask my wife to tell her parents. None of our family or friends know. I didn't need it and I didn't think it would help. I'm pretty sure she would have done it if I asked. I think she would have cut off her foot if I asked. My opinion for your situation is to disclose to the family if you think you or your marriage will get any kind of benefit from it. To me it doesn't seem like you will, but you have to be the judge of it.

I didn't ask for a timeline. I had read every single email and message between them, so I knew everything. But if I felt anything was missing I definitely would have asked her to write a timeline. I would have insisted on it. My opinion on your situation is to insist on being told all the details you want to know.

I talked to other man's boss on the phone and shortly after that he was fired. Then I called other man and told him that he was lucky all he lost was his job. I didn't tell my wife I was doing it and, as far as I know, she still doesn't know. I did get some satisfaction from it.


----------



## warlock07

> She is beating herself up already pretty good I think.


Your biggest mistake IMO. I think your second D-day happened for the exact same reason. You probably over empathize. You are probably over estimating how much guilt she is feeling about this. You are not her. You wouldn't imagine doing the same things to her that she did to you. She is a different person. Stop trying to protect her from her own mistakes and let her learn. She willingly went through the whole thing twice. It wasn't a drunk one night stand. Her actions after the D-day should be a deal breaker in most cases. Yet, you are here in pain while she cannot stop lying(you rationalize it as her guilt not allowing her to confess. I think it is bullsh!t. Like I said, what you think she should feel is not necessarily what she is feeling).

Only through guilt, shame and humility will she have the opportunity to reflect on what she did. And from the pain of the whole situation will she learn to not do it again. How else will she learn ? Do you understand how she really felt about you during her affair and then after the first D-day ? If she can flip a switch and end the affair with the OM so easily, why do you think it cannot happen again to you. You will surely have bad times in your marriage again. It is very easy for her to go back to that mental state again


----------



## LongWalk

There is something to what Warlock says.

I think you should ask your wife to write out the timeline. After she finishes writing it she should of her own accord want to share it with you.

It may be that you don't want to know all the nitty gritty details of sex acts, but the emotional aspect of it and the time involved, it is like a mountain to which your back is turned. How big is it? You only know that it stands there, blocking the sun.


----------



## treyvion

treyvion said:


> They don't give it up easily. You have to kill it to the root if you want a chance of not being cheated on again in the future.


Some of the "professional" cheaters are furious that there are men and women who really want to defend themself and relationships behind cheating. They are not too happy that some of them can start getting hurt.


----------



## LongWalk

How are you doing RS?


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## lordmayhem

LongWalk said:


> How are you doing RS?


Last activity was Jan 31. Probably doing the same as the OTHER BS with the sexless marriage. I'm everyone knows which thread that is.


----------



## davecarter

lordmayhem said:


> Last activity was Jan 31. Probably doing the same as the OTHER BS with the sexless marriage...


...and/or back with OM.


----------



## Road Scholar

I thought I would touch base and let folks on TAM know where I'm at. It's been awhile since I have been to the site. 

My wife and I are still together and working on reconciling and loving each other. I still think about the affair and the OM every day. Some days are hard. Some days I feel great. 2/28/13 was the first day they hooked up and it was a tough day. I spent that day with just my kids skiing to take my mind off things and had a really great day with just the three of us. I'm going through all teh 1st year anniversary dates in my mind which pretty much sucks.

Generally speaking though I'm doing pretty well. She continues to be reassuring to me. She tells me every day multiple times a day how much she loves me and how close she feels to me now and that she loves me more now than ever. We are much more respectful and appreciative of one another. We go on dates and make time for us to connect. 

The sex is still pretty frequent 3-4x week and is good but I'm guessing not affair sex which really bothers me. This has always been a sore spot for us. I think she has tried. She has bought a few outfits but it's still pretty run of the mill. I try not to let it bother me that much but I keep going back to it. It feels to me like she doesn't have the passion for me like I do for her. She says she does and was hurt when I told her our sex life is just ok. Says it will never be good enough. We're trying to work on that aspect of our relationship too. I let her know I'm just trying to make things better in all areas of our relationship.

I've had a few blow ups but for the most part things are leveling off with my emotions. I'm living with the situation and dealing with teh ups and downs better. I still sometimes wonder if I would be better off solo but usually come back around that we are all better off together provided we can all be happy (us and kids).

I went to a retreat my church sponsored and have gotten strength from the message of forgiveness. It's been very powerful for me and I guess you could say I have relied on my faith to help me through this. I have not been perfect and while I have never had an affair, I have done things I'm not proud of which have no doubt hurt our relationship.

Some days I feel really great with her, some days I still feel crappy and extremely hurt by her betrayal, lies, deceit, and of course sleeping with another man.

She started the new job and things are going well on that front. We're rebuilding our lives and our relationship and it's hard sometimes to stay focused on that goal but we are moving forward together.


----------



## LongWalk

It seems like the missing timeline is really the information that would illustrate the extent of the sexual aspect of the affair. Your wife doesn't want to share that with you for fear of undermining R. Not an unreasonable worry on her part.

She is comfortable with you. She loves you. Her core values, abandoned during the affair and false reconciliation, are important to her. So, she wants your marriage to survive but cannot conjure up the sexual passion that she felt with the OM. It was exciting. You are her husband, not a lover who talks dirty and fingers her anally without asking permission.

Is she orgasmic when you have sex? Is your sex live different than before the affair?

Hang in there. Remember that the key to ending the five months of sexless false R was when she saw in your eyes that you were leaving. You don't have to leave, but you must manifest the same determination. When you are decisive that wets her panties. You need to get rid of the glum face. Turn your negative emotions into energy to do things.

What sort of property do you have? Maybe you need to build a sauna or hot tub so that you can bang your wife in a dfferent atmosphere.

Anyways, nice to hear from you again.

p.s. Life is never perfect. Do not let your wife be the determinant of your self confidence and sense of worth.


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## bandit.45

I know it sucks, but you may need to be the one who drives the passion in your sex. 

Quit waiting for her to initiate. Take her. Take what you want from her, toss her around the bed a little....don't ask, just do. You may be surprised at how she responds. 

Her OM was most likely very commanding and did what he wanted to with her, and she got excited by it. You don't have to be abusive. Just take what you want. 

Try it. Maybe it will work, maybe it will backfire... but you have to do something to get over the hump.


----------



## harrybrown

Still no timeline? 

No consequences. What will stop her next affair at the new job?

I do hope you find happiness. Would she be so kind if you had an affair?


----------



## davecarter

bandit.45 said:


> I know it sucks, but you may need to be the one who drives the passion in your sex.
> 
> Quit waiting for her to initiate. Take her. Take what you want from her, toss her around the bed a little....don't ask, just do. You may be surprised at how she responds.
> 
> Her OM was most likely very commanding and did what he wanted to with her, and she got excited by it. You don't have to be abusive. Just take what you want.
> 
> Try it. Maybe it will work, maybe it will backfire... but you have to do something to get over the hump.


Yep. Isn't this quite often the case with women married to passive husbands who go onto having affairs?


----------



## Road Scholar

LongWalk said:


> It seems like the missing timeline is really the information that would illustrate the extent of the sexual aspect of the affair. Your wife doesn't want to share that with you for fear of undermining R. Not an unreasonable worry on her part.
> 
> She is comfortable with you. She loves you. Her core values, abandoned during the affair and false reconciliation, are important to her. So, she wants your marriage to survive but cannot conjure up the sexual passion that she felt with the OM. It was exciting. You are her husband, not a lover who talks dirty and fingers her anally without asking permission.
> 
> Is she orgasmic when you have sex? Is your sex live different than before the affair?
> 
> Hang in there. Remember that the key to ending the five months of sexless false R was when she saw in your eyes that you were leaving. You don't have to leave, but you must manifest the same determination. When you are decisive that wets her panties. You need to get rid of the glum face. Turn your negative emotions into energy to do things.
> 
> What sort of property do you have? Maybe you need to build a sauna or hot tub so that you can bang your wife in a dfferent atmosphere.
> 
> Anyways, nice to hear from you again.
> 
> p.s. Life is never perfect. Do not let your wife be the determinant of your self confidence and sense of worth.


LongWalk,
I have to say I love your posts. They are very direct and get right the root of the issue. They make me think or rethink. They challenge me, as do many posts here. 

As far as the timeline, I don't feel that it will be the end all and give me all the facts and insight that I may need. Even the timeline, if I were to force it, which is what it would take at this point, would be trickle-truth and minimized with details left out. I haven't pressed on sex details because I don't know that I could live with that knowledge and continue to live with my life. Part of me wants to know, part of me doesn't want to go there.

Orgasmic no, not really at least not every time. She tells me it feels good sometimes and sometimes it hurts. Female issues going way back. Sex life is different in that it's more frequent but back to normal married sex v. affair sex. That's how I would classify it. Sex was always better when she had a few too many ****tails.

As far as your comment on focusing on taking action and doing things, couldn't agree more. Feels empowering. Felt great taking the kids skiing solo and without her. I could tell she missed me and wanted to be part of the fun, but she wasn't.

At the end of the day, I am trying to forgive and forget and rebuild versus punishing her for her mistakes, but part of me does feel better when she is hurting because of what she did to us. It moves me from victim to healer I guess. It's reassuring to me that she feels bad about what she did. At least a part of her does. I would guess somewhere deep down she may still think of that time and smile inside. Although, she would never admit that to me.

She actually told one of her friends about it and that she made a huge mistake. That's another story.


----------



## LongWalk

Did she feed that story to the friend, knowing it would leak back to you? Many people know that certain confessions in confidence will not remain secrets. People blab.

It is interesting the way people rewrite history and the meaning of events. This happens in all aspects of life. People wish for things and do things, which when they lead to bad consequences change perceptions.

Your perception of your wife underwent an enormous negative change and while this bothered her for months, she did not actually care enough about you or your marriage to change her feelings. She might actually have been mad at the circumstances that led to the end of uncomfortable yet fulfilling time of having two men feed her ego.

I gather that in your original courtship and pre affair married life, your wife always felt that you married up and she married down in some aspect of sex/status ranking. However, intellectually she knew you were a reliable mate. Her behavior has all the hypergamy logic.

Your wife can read your moods pretty well, can't she. She is also rather flexible. Would your describe her a socially competent?

Don't try and match her in fluidity. Your relationship will have no weight or gravity. You need to responsible for your own happiness. Take what she gives that fits your needs as your right. Do things for her but before you do them, ask yourself if you will feel resentment. If it is likely, then skip it.

Why would sex be painful for her? Is it when she is not aroused? Do you know what gets her off? I didn't really know about G-spot stimulation until late in the game. Technique is sometimes very important but it feels like hot sex is mostly about chemistry.

One thing that BH wonder about: was there something he did that I don't. Sometimes doing was POSOM did might not be good at all. It might just be a trigger for her.


----------



## MEM2020

Road,
I think there are a lot of positive signs:
- The big BIG thing was her changing jobs. 
- She seems to accept consequences - like the ski trip - without complaint
- She is working hard to make you happy in bed
- She isn't lying about whether or not she has an O - this is bigger than you might realize. She's under duress due to the affair guilt, but she isn't pretending. You want to encourage her continued sincerity. Many men react negatively to encounters where their wives don't reach the rapture. This creates a subtle and toxic pressure for the W to lie. And that particular lie does a lot of damage. 

There's this thing I do every once in a while along those lines. After we connect, and she doesn't get there, I say: 

- You know I would do anything - anything - to try to make 'this' as good for you as it is for me. 
- A big part of what I love about you is that this 'hand gesture to us' is real. Sometimes real isn't exactly what either of us want. And that's good because you're the one person I don't want to play 'pretend' with. And I hope that's true in reverse. 



As for the specifics, she won that battle. And that's ok because it doesn't change the landscape much. You both know she wasn't truthful about the frequency of their trysts. 

That said, I do hope she is being proactively transparent with you. When I go out I tell my wife where I'm going. And vice versa. 







Road Scholar said:


> LongWalk,
> I have to say I love your posts. They are very direct and get right the root of the issue. They make me think or rethink. They challenge me, as do many posts here.
> 
> As far as the timeline, I don't feel that it will be the end all and give me all the facts and insight that I may need. Even the timeline, if I were to force it, which is what it would take at this point, would be trickle-truth and minimized with details left out. I haven't pressed on sex details because I don't know that I could live with that knowledge and continue to live with my life. Part of me wants to know, part of me doesn't want to go there.
> 
> Orgasmic no, not really at least not every time. She tells me it feels good sometimes and sometimes it hurts. Female issues going way back. Sex life is different in that it's more frequent but back to normal married sex v. affair sex. That's how I would classify it. Sex was always better when she had a few too many ****tails.
> 
> As far as your comment on focusing on taking action and doing things, couldn't agree more. Feels empowering. Felt great taking the kids skiing solo and without her. I could tell she missed me and wanted to be part of the fun, but she wasn't.
> 
> At the end of the day, I am trying to forgive and forget and rebuild versus punishing her for her mistakes, but part of me does feel better when she is hurting because of what she did to us. It moves me from victim to healer I guess. It's reassuring to me that she feels bad about what she did. At least a part of her does. I would guess somewhere deep down she may still think of that time and smile inside. Although, she would never admit that to me.
> 
> She actually told one of her friends about it and that she made a huge mistake. That's another story.


----------



## DailyStruggle

Hello RS:

So glad to hear that things are moving forward for you guys. 

Not wishing to highjack your thread with my very first post, I just want to let you know that your story helped me immensely. I first came to TAM in, I believe, October of last year. My life was a mess, and I was desperately seeking some sense of direction. I read many threads, but found what I needed in yours. My situation was as complicated as any here, and I will forever be grateful to you and the many kind folks that advised you (and, indirectly, me). All were great, especially Will Kane. 

I believe an Alpha is someone that has a sense of purpose, and doesn't give up easily. You fit the bill. 

You should probably use caution in accepting any advice from a first time poster, but here goes: A recent poster suggested that you consider spicing things up by taking your wife in a more forceful and spontaneous way. I recall reading a thread on TAM in which women were polled as to what one thing would they like their husband to do. This very thing was frequently listed. Apparently, the books many women find popular are popular for a reason.

Wishing you and your wife the best,

DS


----------



## LongWalk

I agree but it has to feel natural. Women have BS detectors. However, pent up emotion channeled into sexual emotion can be powerful.


----------



## happyman64

RS

Focus right here.



> At the end of the day, I am trying to forgive and forget and rebuild versus punishing her for her mistakes, but part of me does feel better when she is hurting because of what she did to us. It moves me from victim to healer I guess. It's reassuring to me that she feels bad about what she did. At least a part of her does. I would guess somewhere deep down she may still think of that time and smile inside. Although, she would never admit that to me.


This is on you.

Just feeling that you get from being a victim to a healer tells me a lot about where you are.

But notice that even though you feel better moving towards being a healer you still feel that somewhere deep inside your wife still thinks about the affair and she smiles inside.

I think deep inside yourself you feel she is not 100% remorseful. And that bothers you.

So I will make a suggestion.

Stop being a victim. Stop being a healer. Start being a leader.

You already started with the skiing trip and the dates.

But continue to walk on your own, making those family decisions and basing those decisions on what is best for you, your kids and then your wife.

I would also recommend that you make it clear that while she has never given you a timeline most likely to protect herself from additional fallout that you will never give her a second chance.

I like Long Walks suggestion.

My wife is as sexually shy as they come. She was making dinner for our kids and her parents.

She asked me to get her father a beer from the downstairs fridge.

I grabbed a cold one and then just waited downstairs to see how long it would take her to go see why I did not bring the beer upstairs.

Two minutes was all it took.

She comes running down the stairs to get the beer herself.

I pinned her against the wall just for a minute. I kissed her hard and used that beer bottle to my advantage.

My wife got all hot and bothered in a heart beat.

I then smiled, let her go and said to her "What a shame our house is so full".

I then brought my FIL his beer.

My MIL saw my wife come back to the kitchen with her face all red and just smiled to herself.

I thought I would share that with you. And no my wife has never read 50 Shades of Grey.

Glad you and your family are doing better.

HM


----------



## warlock07

> As far as the timeline, I don't feel that it will be the end all and give me all the facts and insight that I may need. Even the timeline, if I were to force it, which is what it would take at this point, would be trickle-truth and minimized with details left out. I haven't pressed on sex details because I don't know that I could live with that knowledge and continue to live with my life. Part of me wants to know, part of me doesn't want to go there.


At what point does it become rug-sweeping and suppressing your emotions ? We had a poster here that was still suffering 12 years after the event. Do you think not knowing the details a long term solution ?

And if you even wanted to, do you think she will tell you ? Do you really have the luxury ? I don't really think you do.

By not asking her, I think you are maintaining the status quo that will hold the marriage together.



> It feels to me like she doesn't have the passion for me like I do for her.


Why is that ? Do you think she feels obligated(or pressurized) to put out 2-3 times a week ? Do you start triggering bad when the gap gets bigger ? Who initiates most of the time ?

How would you describe your love making ? Is it passionate ?( Don't give me too many "I think" "I think she thinks" like you usually do. Think realistically)

Not really looking for the lurid details. 

Have you considered that she is doing everything to hide her shame from her family ? You mentioned her mother cheating on her father.

I've asked this before but have you had a discussion about making her confess to her father ? Not actually telling her father. I would be very interested to know how she would react to this suggestion ?

It would really suck to find out if this is the reason she is reconciling is because of shame, not out of love for you.(She need not necessarily hate you if she does not love you)

What happened when her father found out her mother was cheating on him ? How old was she when this happened ? What is her relationship with her mother ?



> She says she does and was hurt when I told her our sex life is just ok. Says it will never be good enough.


Can you tell us a bit more about this discussion ?


----------



## Road Scholar

DailyStruggle said:


> Hello RS:
> 
> So glad to hear that things are moving forward for you guys.
> 
> Not wishing to highjack your thread with my very first post, I just want to let you know that your story helped me immensely. I first came to TAM in, I believe, October of last year. My life was a mess, and I was desperately seeking some sense of direction. I read many threads, but found what I needed in yours. My situation was as complicated as any here, and I will forever be grateful to you and the many kind folks that advised you (and, indirectly, me). All were great, especially Will Kane.
> 
> I believe an Alpha is someone that has a sense of purpose, and doesn't give up easily. You fit the bill.
> 
> You should probably use caution in accepting any advice from a first time poster, but here goes: A recent poster suggested that you consider spicing things up by taking your wife in a more forceful and spontaneous way. I recall reading a thread on TAM in which women were polled as to what one thing would they like their husband to do. This very thing was frequently listed. Apparently, the books many women find popular are popular for a reason.
> 
> Wishing you and your wife the best,
> 
> DS


DS,
Thanks for the post. I'm glad my story and all those that have commented on my situation helped you with yours. Many similarities in all of these posts. TAM has definitely been a huge support group for me and I feel the same way you do, grateful to all that have cared enough to put their opinions out there for public consumption.

Appreciate the comment on taking my wife more forcefully, I'll give it a try and see how it works out.

All the best with your situation!


----------



## badmemory

warlock07 said:


> Do you think she feels obligated(or pressurized) to put out 2-3 times a week ?* Do you start triggering bad when the gap gets bigger ?*


Very insightful Warlock. I've never heard anyone on TAM mention that particular trigger before. That's one of mine, 2 and a half years into R.


----------



## LongWalk

Reading Racer's thread, I began to wonder if some WW are to some degree challenged and motivated to win back BH's love, the love that was naive, unsullied but now gone forever. Women are generally adept at reading men and they realize that their marriages are now fragile. They want to work to win their husbands back to a safer place. Racer is not satisfied with his sex life, but he is at peace with the freedom that he has. He has even defined it in the most concrete and banal terms: he hates the idea of moving and buying IKEA furniture. That laziness gives their relationship some cushion. His wife senses this, though perhaps less acutely than RS's wife. She is working to repair the situation but her personality has limitations. She has trouble conceptualizing the exactly how their life is structured financially. She assumes that her role is bigger than it is, that she is more of a contributor to their common cause: three teens. Racer does not want a radical makeover, just more affection, more humility.

Remorse is necessary for R to begin, but some sign of a healthy relationship has to emerge. The BH has to take a lead showing that positive emotions can return, but at the start what can he say but "maybe"? There must be WW who would like to R but feel that they cannot see anything but a ruin. Maybe is just the beginning of an unknown project.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Road Scholar

Just thought I would check in for a bit.

It's been 1 year and 5 days since DDAY1 and about 8 mos. and 12 days since DDAY2. I'm still on the Road so to speak to reconciliation. It's a bumpy road for sure riddle with all kinds of potholes, and speedbumps and sharp turns and dangerous cliffs. Well you get the point. It's been up and down. 

Warlock yes I guess I trigger when the period of time between sex gets longer, but that's when I'm waiting for her queues and get the sense that shes "not feeling it". It makes me question why she isn't feeling it with me but felt it with OM morning, noon, and night.

I would say the longest stretch I have gone feeling really high and in love would be about 2 weeks, sometimes less. Then I get sad, hurt, think that perhaps it would be better to move on. I question her actions then and the conscious decisions she made. I blame her. I understand how an affair could happen, what I really struggle with is what she did after DDAY when I put it all out there to make things work and she threw it in my face and continued to see him and be with him all the while torturing me. "I never meant to hurt you." Yes I was very naive and stupid. Trusted it was over, believed she wouldn't hurt me all that stuff. I was wrong and she deceived me again. That's what haunts me. that and the trickle truth and reluctance to come clean fully. Always saying you know everything. It ended in May....yada yada yada. 

She continues to be remorseful and committed to working through this. When I get down and challenge things she cries at my line of questioning. She is always supportive and has not shown any sign of giving up even though I certainly have at times. She pulls me back in. She has said I was being strong for us during that whole time and now she is trying to be strong for us. There is something about that I like and it gives me comfort even to think it now. I've been pretty down this week. C*ck blocking myself because I'm not feeling it. She wants to move past all that affair stuff and focus on our future which is understandable from her point of view but still bothers me. Am I holding on to it too long? Keeping it alive? Can't let it go but can't let her go either.

There's an arrogance that lingers that bothers me. She has one or two IC sessions since DDay2 and not since. We have had 2 MC since DDay2 one I scheduled, one she did after I again brought it up in an argument. She read one of the books I suggested and skimmed the other. In truth, I haven't read it either fully "Not Just Friends". In many ways I feel we're past that, but I'm always searching for information online looking for a cure. I know there isn't one really. She feels like she understands why it happened and claims to have learned a life lesson and would never ever remotely come close to doing that sort of thing again. Part of me feels like she still has a lot to learn. After all, she was lying while we were in MC and IC so how beneficial could it really have been to her?

I guess when I was trying to keep it all together after DDay1, I bought books, I scoured the internet, joined chat groups, prayed, confessed, bought the Mort Fertel books, cd's, dvds, sold my motorcycle, wrote long letters apologizing for my short comings as a husband and trying to let her know just what she meant to me. I was grasping at anything to save the marriage. It feels to me that she hasn't reached that point. Maybe I have allowed that to some extent by interceding before she gets there and pulling her close to me when I feel I seen enough remorse and regret from her. Then things are good for a while and I regress to questioning the road I am on.

I am just over one year from DDAY1 and wondering if this is good progress or not. DDAY2 was 8.5 month ago. We have had some incredible weeks and some really tough weeks. There have been times when I haven't felt closer to her and it seems like the affair stuff is barely in focus, like it is the furthest thing from both of us. Then there are times when it's all I can focus on and the hurt and sadness comes back and I wonder how can I be with this person who treated me so poorly and when I offered her forgiveness and another chance, stuck the knife in deeper and twisted it.

I have a hard time when she tells me as she did last night that it was hell for her too because at any point she could have stopped it. I could not have done that to her especially if I were caught in an affair and she gave me a second chance to save my marriage and family. So I question her love for me at the end of the day. And maybe I do deserve better and can be happy without having a daily reminder sharing my life. But then there is the kids. 

Do the highs get longer, and lows get shorter? I could live with that if the lows get to the point that they don't barely register.

Open to all comments...thanks.


----------



## WhiteRaven

All she has understood from your actions is now matter what she does, you won't leave her. She just wants the marriage bro, not you.

This marriage will eventually end.


----------



## walkonmars

How are the kids - surely they know all is not well in the Scholar household.


----------



## MEM2020

You don't trust her because she didn't/doesn't trust you enough to tell you the whole truth. She stonewalled on the 'full disclosure'.

Pretty sure she thought/thinks you would leave her. So her stonewalling is not driven by a lack of remorse, but rather by a very real fear. 

It is of course much harder to forgive something like this when the other person refuses to admit the full extent of their betrayal. 

As far as her desire levels. The weaker you seem, the less desire she feels. The stronger (real strength) you seem, the more desire she feels. 

How often does she reject you, when you initiate?
How often does she preemptively block you by saying she's tired, headache, not feeling well?





Road Scholar said:


> Just thought I would check in for a bit.
> 
> It's been 1 year and 5 days since DDAY1 and about 8 mos. and 12 days since DDAY2. I'm still on the Road so to speak to reconciliation. It's a bumpy road for sure riddle with all kinds of potholes, and speedbumps and sharp turns and dangerous cliffs. Well you get the point. It's been up and down.
> 
> Warlock yes I guess I trigger when the period of time between sex gets longer, but that's when I'm waiting for her queues and get the sense that shes "not feeling it". It makes me question why she isn't feeling it with me but felt it with OM morning, noon, and night.
> 
> I would say the longest stretch I have gone feeling really high and in love would be about 2 weeks, sometimes less. Then I get sad, hurt, think that perhaps it would be better to move on. I question her actions then and the conscious decisions she made. I blame her. I understand how an affair could happen, what I really struggle with is what she did after DDAY when I put it all out there to make things work and she threw it in my face and continued to see him and be with him all the while torturing me. "I never meant to hurt you." Yes I was very naive and stupid. Trusted it was over, believed she wouldn't hurt me all that stuff. I was wrong and she deceived me again. That's what haunts me. that and the trickle truth and reluctance to come clean fully. Always saying you know everything. It ended in May....yada yada yada.
> 
> She continues to be remorseful and committed to working through this. When I get down and challenge things she cries at my line of questioning. She is always supportive and has not shown any sign of giving up even though I certainly have at times. She pulls me back in. She has said I was being strong for us during that whole time and now she is trying to be strong for us. There is something about that I like and it gives me comfort even to think it now. I've been pretty down this week. C*ck blocking myself because I'm not feeling it. She wants to move past all that affair stuff and focus on our future which is understandable from her point of view but still bothers me. Am I holding on to it too long? Keeping it alive? Can't let it go but can't let her go either.
> 
> There's an arrogance that lingers that bothers me. She has one or two IC sessions since DDay2 and not since. We have had 2 MC since DDay2 one I scheduled, one she did after I again brought it up in an argument. She read one of the books I suggested and skimmed the other. In truth, I haven't read it either fully "Not Just Friends". In many ways I feel we're past that, but I'm always searching for information online looking for a cure. I know there isn't one really. She feels like she understands why it happened and claims to have learned a life lesson and would never ever remotely come close to doing that sort of thing again. Part of me feels like she still has a lot to learn. After all, she was lying while we were in MC and IC so how beneficial could it really have been to her?
> 
> I guess when I was trying to keep it all together after DDay1, I bought books, I scoured the internet, joined chat groups, prayed, confessed, bought the Mort Fertel books, cd's, dvds, sold my motorcycle, wrote long letters apologizing for my short comings as a husband and trying to let her know just what she meant to me. I was grasping at anything to save the marriage. It feels to me that she hasn't reached that point. Maybe I have allowed that to some extent by interceding before she gets there and pulling her close to me when I feel I seen enough remorse and regret from her. Then things are good for a while and I regress to questioning the road I am on.
> 
> I am just over one year from DDAY1 and wondering if this is good progress or not. DDAY2 was 8.5 month ago. We have had some incredible weeks and some really tough weeks. There have been times when I haven't felt closer to her and it seems like the affair stuff is barely in focus, like it is the furthest thing from both of us. Then there are times when it's all I can focus on and the hurt and sadness comes back and I wonder how can I be with this person who treated me so poorly and when I offered her forgiveness and another chance, stuck the knife in deeper and twisted it.
> 
> I have a hard time when she tells me as she did last night that it was hell for her too because at any point she could have stopped it. I could not have done that to her especially if I were caught in an affair and she gave me a second chance to save my marriage and family. So I question her love for me at the end of the day. And maybe I do deserve better and can be happy without having a daily reminder sharing my life. But then there is the kids.
> 
> Do the highs get longer, and lows get shorter? I could live with that if the lows get to the point that they don't barely register.
> 
> Open to all comments...thanks.


----------



## turnera

Road Scholar said:


> When I get down and challenge things she cries at my line of questioning.
> 
> She wants to move past all that affair stuff and focus on our future
> 
> There's an arrogance that lingers that bothers me.
> 
> She has one or two IC sessions since DDay2 and not since. We have had 2 MC since DDay2 one I scheduled, one she did after I again brought it up in an argument.
> 
> She read one of the books I suggested and skimmed the other.
> 
> She feels like she understands why it happened and claims to have learned a life lesson and would never ever remotely come close to doing that sort of thing again. Part of me feels like she still has a lot to learn.
> 
> It feels to me that she hasn't reached that point.


We told you this would happen. We told you that you HAD to hold her extremely accountable and DEMAND a LOT LOT LOT of work from her. You didn't, and she hasn't. It's in a cheater's nature to work as little as possible UNLESS they face SEVERE CONSEQUENCES.

As we suggested, you never put that in front of her. She never felt in danger of losing everything. She never hit rock bottom.

Therefore, psychologically, she doesn't have that much to lose, she doesn't have to work that hard, because you proved to her that no matter what she does, you'll always be there.

I don't know what to tell you, RS. You can either carry on as you are and maybe achieve happiness some day, or you can tell her you can't do it, not without more from her. JMHO


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## azteca1986

> ...and claims to have learned a life lesson and would never ever remotely come close to doing that sort of thing again.


What lesson did she learn? She didn't even attempt to be completely truthful with you. What does she mean by 'that sort of thing'? She knows. You don't.

You won't find the answers your looking for on the internet. The person with the greatest power to ease your mind is the person who betrayed you. Twice over.

Sorry you're still in the same place, RS.


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## bandit.45

Her affair was like a lightning bolt hitting an old ancient oak tree. That tree can appear healthy for years afterwards, but deep inside the heartwood there is a slow rot occurring. It will eventually spread through the whole tree and kill it, despite your best efforts or hers. 

I agree with the others that she has not given it her best effort. Four counseling sessions? Four? Wow.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

> I have a hard time when she tells me as she did last night that *it was hell for her too because at any point she could have stopped it.* I could not have done that to her especially if I were caught in an affair and she gave me a second chance to save my marriage and family. So I question her love for me at the end of the day. And maybe I do deserve better and can be happy without having a daily reminder sharing my life. But then there is the kids.


How was it a hell for her? It didn't feel that bad when she was having intercourse with him. Was it hell because she feared divorce? Shame? Embarrassment? Or what she was doing to you?

Was the sexless period after Dday 2?

She started having sex and crying when she realized you were checked out. That is what made and impression on her. Demanding a timeline at this late stage seems pointless. You already know plenty of bad stuff about the affair which was a total betrayal.

My advice is to reread Turnera and the others. We all remember you because you have given us a thoughtful and moving account of one of the biggest decisions of your life.

1) Your wife loved the OM or love the sex with him and that is why she did not return to intimacy for months. Both of you are smart enough to know that this cannot be denied and it is the reason she did not want to provide a timeline.

Af the end of the day she had to get a fix from the OM, regardless of you or your efforts.

2) I do see what your wife means by saying that she is fighting to keep you together now and that she owes it to the both of you.

3) Does she see a better, stronger more passionate love down the road. How does she convey this incentive?

4) Can you hurt the OM in the eyes of your wife? Was he married? What consequences were there for him?

5) Finding peace within. One thread that might interest you is neuklas's. He and his wife have two children and she has been uninterested in sex for the past 7 years. He is doing a modified 180 and she has responded by becoming physically more affectionate.

Now, though, he must deal with 7 years of resentment. He is angry at himself for putting up with it for so long.

Resentment is something that is spoiling your lives.

Becoming happy without depending on her affirmation would seem to be a must. Do you think deciding to end your marriage would bring enormous relief? Do you fear that hanging on with eat you up inside in the long run?

By the way, has she ever asked you if you have a desire for a revenge affair? Have you ever asked her if she worries that you will now stray?


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## Openminded

What's happened is what posters said would happen. You chose not to hold her completely accountable and now you are seeing the result. It was predictable.


----------



## warlock07

Does her father or family know ?(Is she 'R'ing out of shame ?)

Do you have the complete timeline ? 

How do you know if they haven't resumed the affair underground ?


----------



## LongWalk

I should add that I believe in you RS. You will find a solution and your wife, even if she becomes your ex wife will respect you for it.

Not being dependent on her for your sense of self worth and integrity is key. Once you are stronger, you will find out what sort of love you have for her. You will also see her more clearly.

re: the false R
The first time she slept with him after Dday one, did she ever at least explain what was going through her head then?


----------



## Chaparral

I'm going off on a different tangent. You sold your motorcycle? Wtf? What did she sell? I don't see a problem with changing/improving yourself but what has she done?

I think you haven't read the mmslp book. Its a book about being a man that attacts a woman. My hunch is you changed after marriage. You became overly domesticated and by default became less attractive.

If you are giving up your motorcycle and doing other things to become a "better" husband, there is a good chance you are making the wrong changes.

Get the mmslp book linked to below, and both of you study the NOT JUST FRIENDS book.

You can hold this thing together but not like you are doing it.


----------



## harrybrown

Marriage is tough, especially with her cheating and continued cheating.

You can not make it work by yourself. She does not have to work to make the marriage better. You have and continue to do so.

She did not face any consequences in the past for her cheating. When she cheats again, she will do a better job of hiding it from you. She got to have her fun and she will again.

How old are your kids now? Are you staying just for the kids now?

Do you know the people from her new job? You can not trust your wife. She does not respect you. 

She is still thinking of herself and her "pain". She is not doing any counseling to change. She did so much for the OM. When was the last time she had contact with the OM? She is not doing anything for you, she really treated the OM so much better than she treats you. 

I do wish you happiness someday. But she still does not love you and she is not the person you ever thought she was, she loves herself and probably the kids. 

She does not love you. How could you do what she did and is still doing to you if she did love you? If she loved you, she would move heaven and earth to try to help with your pain. 

What is she doing for you? no timeline, no counseling, still thinks of her pain and not yours, not reading to make any changes, but most likely back into another A or continuing the old, but doing all the communication thru her work .


----------



## bfree

It was hell for her? Yes, I can imagine how it was so difficult having your cake and eating it too. I could do that as well but I have this little thing called integrity that prevents me from trying it.


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## happyman64

Road Scholar

Do you truly love your wife after all that has transpired?

Do you feel she truly loves you?

HM


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## LongWalk

Most posters are skeptical of your wife. They advised you to seek the timeline and to get full disclosure. They believe it was a mistake to resume intimacy without total remorse. Of course we don't see your wife crying so we don't exactly how remorseful she is. You are not satisfied and that is what matters. And she is not content without you being back into your marriage.

In this sense you are both on the same page. That is positive. You want the same thing. But do you want the same thing for the same reason? Is it important that the reason is the same?

Where do you feel she is holding back?


----------



## barbados

She is giving you a less than half effort in R at best. She did a whooping 4 counseling sessions. And I am assuming still no timeline ?

RS, you said all comments are welcome, so here are mine :

She's just not that into you anymore. She had affair sex, and loved it. Sex with you will never be as good for her. She knows this. She is just trying to avoid a D for the kids and monetary reasons just like you are.

Why only 4 IC's ? Because she knows they are a waste of time. Why ? See above. She will not tell the therapist the full truth so they can't work.

She has typical cheaters speak still. 

She just wants to move past the A

She wants to focus on the future... etc.

You are still in a false R. You are worrying about the kids, but this is not a healthy situation for them to be raised in.

I think you really need to start D.


----------



## LongWalk

Barbados could be right. However, if you become a stronger person and become the leader in your marriage, your wife may grow to love you more. The strength you gained by being ready to divorce her attracted her back. But you cannot live with a constant threat of divorce.

You can hit the gym, cultivate your hobbies and dominate your wife in the bedroom. Read Jerry123. He is a tool and die maker who became a SAHD. His wife is a successful executive and lost respect for him. She probably cheated but he could never prove it. By threatening divorce and putting up with zero put downs he forced her to back track. Sex is power struggle. He makes her enjoy herself. His wife is not even as sympathetic a character.

Acoa is a guy who is divorcing his WW after false R. She was still cheating. She loves him. He loves her, but he will not accept her deceit. Two strikes and you're out.

So it depends on the people involved.

Above all be strong. Easy to say but if you treat yourself with self respect and regard, your wife will love you more.


----------



## LongWalk

happyman64 said:


> Road Scholar
> 
> Do you truly love your wife after all that has transpired?
> 
> Do you feel she truly loves you?
> 
> HM


:iagree:


----------



## lordmayhem

I see the resentment building already. I have not noticed a single thing about this WW being transparent or RS monitoring her to ensure that there is NC. None of that. All I've read is a lot of "she loves me" and "I love her" stuff. 

He posted she was willing to do anything to heal the marriage, yet won't give a timeline or details, and then only goes to 4-5 counselling sessions? 










Where's the effort? Then sex is still pretty much duty sex, but he claims she's trying. Really? Back to the old "its painful for her", but apparently not painful for the OM. 

Then all she wants is to get past this. This is cheater speak for "get over it already". In my last post in this thread, I said time will tell. Everyone has it right, there's no real progress, just rugsweeping...and the resentment continues to build.


----------



## WhiteRaven

lordmayhem said:


> All I've read is a lot of "she loves me" and "I love her" stuff.


Not everyone can accept the bare truth. He has been justifying and keeps on justifying. One day, he won't have a thing to justify about her behavior. 

This M is heading for a really bitter ending. OP, just for once do what needs to be done rather then finding reasons to rugsweep.


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## bandit.45

The woman ain't done d!ck to improve herself or affair proof her marriage. This is rugs weeping at its finest.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## WhiteRaven

This sham of an R disgusts me as I have been through the same. 

Sex is an intimate gift given freely, without any obligation in a normal marriage. What I see here is sex being used as a manipulation tool, a bargaining chip. 'You stay, you get to fk me' situation is revolting. Paying an escort for sex is way better than this kind on sh*t.


----------



## LongWalk

Can duty sex turn into something better? Can OP's WW fall back in love with him?


----------



## Ripper

Successful reconciliations are rare. It requires a BS capable of that level of forgiveness and a WS willing to die on the cross. OP might be capable, but his wife isn't willing.

Welcome to purgatory OP.


----------



## LongWalk

Will Kane wrote some fantastic posts on this thread. Classic discourse. RS, remember you yourself predicted after Dday2 that you might be facing divorce 5 months later. You foresaw the position you are in now and guessed that it would be even harder down the road. Clearly the moniker you chose for yourself was self consciously prophetic.

The statistics indicate that adultery is common. There are cheaters aplenty in my family, my maternal grandparents were cheaters. According to my uncle (mother's twin bro), who was cheater himself, my grandfather brought to grandmother round the house to taunt his dying wife. On my father's side one uncle cheated, two cousin's husbands. My brother's BIL cheated. None reconciled.

When thinking of couples I know among friends and relatives and try to imagine how they would handle infidelity it seems to me that none of them would ever cheat. Furthermore, adultery would lead to divorce for all of them. In truth, though, who knows?

A couple of years ago my mother, now 83, talked to me so much about a friend of hers, an old man who had been friends with my parents when I was child, that realized that the two of them had a special connection. They had been in an emotional affair for years. The connection to our family was that he and his wife had sponsored my parents when they were naturalized (became US citizens). That favor must have something that my mother got him to do.

Now that they were all struggling with all the health problems of old age my mother was helping him from time because he was going blind. She listened to him complain about his wife. A spouse complaining about their partner to a member of the opposite sex: that is almost a certain sign of an EA.

Oddly my mother was unconscious that this was an affair. She loves and cares for my Alzheimer's ill father with great dedication and tenderness. As far as wife's go, my father has nothing to complain about. However, between this retired professor and my mother there clearly a romantic attachment. Could they have ever been physical. I don't think so. They were both upright people.

I drove the old guy to the health club one day. He was a very nice guy, great conversationalist, something my father was not. He passed away.

My father was doctor. I think he had an emotional affair with one of his patients, a charismatic woman who owned a hair salon. But my father would never have had an affair or done anything improper. Still, he let this female patient with gazongers enter his circle of trusted persons.

People who perceive unmet emotional needs can get nearer to their crushes by offering sympathy, admiration, etc. As long as the affair is merely emotional, it is possible to deny the character of the relationship. Sex takes everything to a higher, or should I say lower, level. You commented at one point that the affair was out of character for her and that in the past year or two she had become narcissistic instead of down to earth.

You have struggled to her image to the world and perhaps even to the two of you. You have been fighting for the two of you, keeping the memory of the woman she was living even as she was destroying her. In this sense she was in hell. You were saving her from ruin while she continued on the path to disaster. That is a kind of hell as all self conscious self destruction is. Heroin addicts know that it is getting harder and harder to find undamaged veins and yet they continue.

Your wife refused to contribute a timeline to your R. Perhaps she rightly feels that describing how often and what she did with the OM will simply blow your marriage out of the water, leaving nothing splinters of what it once was.

However, there is something you could ask about that requires no details about the affair. You wife started initiating sex shortly after Dday 2 when the determination to divorce was written on your face. She tried unsuccessfully at home but you went on a long weekend and had sex three times per day.

Perhaps you should ask her to describe her thoughts then. When she tried to initiate sex and you rejected her what was going through her head and then on the trip. Her vagina belonged to the OM and suddenly she betrayed him. What was she thinking at the time? An honest account of her emotions would I think force her to be more vulnerable, which at this point may be necessary if you are going to keep this R going.


----------



## barbados

Road Scholar said:


> Do the highs get longer, and lows get shorter? I could live with that if the lows get to the point that they don't barely register.
> 
> *Open to all comments...thanks.*


RS checks in every few months at this point when his false R really bothers him. Sorry, but that is just the truth. Almost every post, mine included, have said to him that he is in false R, that his WW is not sincere, etc.

Then when he vents and does not like what he hears, he checks out.

I quoted the above because, though he says he wants comments, he doesn't really absorb them.

RS, YOU DESERVE BETTER !!


----------



## tom67

barbados said:


> RS checks in every few months at this point when his false R really bothers him. Sorry, but that is just the truth. Almost every post, mine included, have said to him that he is in false R, that his WW is not sincere, etc.
> 
> Then when he vents and does not like what he hears, he checks out.
> 
> I quoted the above because, though he says he wants comments, he doesn't really absorb them.
> 
> RS, YOU DESERVE BETTER !!


barbados
some listen some don't:scratchhead:
RS I wish you the best but I'm out here do whatever you are going to do.


----------



## barbados

tom67 said:


> barbados
> some listen some don't:scratchhead:
> RS I wish you the best but I'm out here do whatever you are going to do.


You're right Tom, but RS really triggers me more than most. 

Actually, way more than most. Don't know why ?

Thanks for the wake up call T !


----------



## LongWalk

Ge triggers us because he is a good writer and a brave person trying to do the right thing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LongWalk

An old post from Will. Man. Guy is sharp.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Road Scholar 
I had a thought the other day about getting toll records so I got online and was able to pull up her travels pretty well. It reveals additional trips and meetings I was not aware of. 

I'm not sure what to do next. Demand the timeline and tell her she has one shot to get it right - our marriage hangs in the balance? Do I let her know about the toll reports - show them to her? She doesn't want to come clean with everything obviously. Is that normal? Or am I just that f*cked up right now in my thinking?

I am 99% certain the affair is dead. I can't say the same for her feelings about the guy. I mean I really don't know. I believe she loves me. I believe she is sincere about reconciling. I also know she wants this to go away as fast as it can. She is humiliated. She hates what she did, but probably not as much as I do. I don't want to throw it in her face but she needs to know that I know. In a few years she may even look back on it fondly. Who knows? 

Anyhow I'm pretty confused. I know my options. Staying is a choice. Leaving is a choice. Both come with consequences. As I mentioned previously this is just more of the bad sh*t I already knew. It doesn't change much only gives me a clearer picture of what was taking place during that ugly time.


Will_Kane said:


> All of this is completely normal. You yourself posted a while back that you KNEW she had seen him 5-10 times since D-day 1, yet she only admitted to seeing him once.
> 
> All cheaters do this. It is called trickle truth and minimizing and rug sweeping.
> 
> Demand the timeline or you will file for divorce. Tell her forcefully that you want it to be accurate, but do not threaten any consequences if it is not, just say that you demand an ACCURATE timeline. The reason to not threaten consequences is because no matter how dire the consequences are, your wife will lie on the timeline. She cannot help herself. I won't call it human nature, but it is cheater's nature. Every cheater does it, with very, very few exceptions. DO NOT MENTION THE TOLL RECORDS. SHE WILL LIE ON THE TIMELINE. EXPECT IT. After she lies on the timeline, THEN you pull out the toll records and catch her in the lie. Then you make her re-do the timeline. Then she will lie on it again. This will happen 2, 3, or 4 times if your wife is typical, which so far she is the poster child for the typical cheater.
> 
> If you want a greater degree of honesty on the timeline, tell her that you are going to polygraph her on the key points of it - how many times they've hooked up since D-day 1 until D-day 2, the last time they saw each other, the last time they communicated with each other. Don't bluff, if you say you are going to do the polygraph, do it. Otherwise she will take advantage of you later knowing you're full of it when you threaten it.
> 
> None of this means that you won't reconcile. You will. It's just that this is how cheaters act, this is the course you have to take. SHE HAS TO OWN UP TO EVERYTHING SHE'S DONE, ADMIT TO IT, AND APOLOGIZE FOR *ALL* OF IT.
> 
> It's like when you go to the doctor with a cold, he tells you it's going to take three days, then you'll have a cough for two weeks, if it lasts longer than that come back and see me. This is similar. This is how the disease called cheating plays out. Sure, there are colds that go away in a day, and some that take longer than two weeks. And there are cheaters who behave differently. But your wife is following the script to a T. How your wife is trickling out the truth, minimizing, delaying, rug sweeping - almost every cheater does this. It must be human nature. Let's call it cheater's nature.
> 
> Don't expect her to act like the mature, intelligent, rational, logical woman that you know she is. When it comes to the cheating, she is like a 15-year-old who got caught and will do or say anything to avoid the consequences.
> 
> I have posted all this before, more than once. Go back and read them again.
> 
> Lastly, she WILL get involved again in the affair if she continue to work there. It's a matter of time. IF your wife is typical, it will be 3, 4, or 5 weeks since D-day and initial no-contact until this happens. Your wife is acting busy with the resumes and the networking, but she is not getting out of there fast enough. If the affair starts up again, the chances of you saving your marriage decrease drastically. This is based on my experience reading these threads. The marriages that get saved, those are the ones where the wife leaves the job immediately, with nothing else lined up, or else within three weeks of D-day. After that, your chances get worse and worse each day.
> 
> She already has contacted him (or he her) for closure at work. Now that life is returning to "normal," they will be in contact a few more times because she is "worried about him," she is "wondering how he's doing," "she wonders how he withstood it from his wife finding out"; contact will increase until the affair starts up again.
> 
> I'm trying to help. This is your life, and your kids' lives your messing with.
> 
> There is a lot of pain and aggravation in getting your wife to do what you need her to do. You seem to want to talk rationally with her and reason with her about how it was wrong to cheat and she will leave the job and not contact him and tell you the truth, like you've always done with everything else with her. That would be easy and nice, but that's not how it actually works. We here have already done what you've done, and this is what we've found out.
> 
> Being nice and mature and logical and reasonable WORKS WITH EVERYTHING ELSE, BUT NOT WITH CHEATING. She will not act rationally. Later, she will look back with deep regret for how she acted and she will be glad that you didn't back down. Now, she is just trying to cover her ass and get out with as little consequence as possible. No telling her family, no telling her work, no leaving the job until she has another one, just everything as normal, the only bad thing is that you are upset, but you never were a prime consideration for her during the affair, and she only has to look at you a few hours each night, so it's not that bad.
> 
> If you reconcile, in a few years (or maybe even sooner), she will deeply regret the affair, not remember it fondly.
> 
> MOST IMPORTANT THINGS:
> 
> 1. Leave the job
> 2. Timeline


RS, a lot of answers you seek are all in your thread.

HappyMan asked the 64 dollar question(s): Does your wife truly love you? Do you still love her?

You yourself wrote that you needed to trust your gut, because it never let you down.


----------



## Road Scholar

WhiteRaven said:


> All she has understood from your actions is now matter what she does, you won't leave her. She just wants the marriage bro, not you.
> 
> This marriage will eventually end.


I respectfully disagree. I will leave if that is what I decide to do. If that is what I feel I need to do. She knows this without a doubt. When I go through low periods as I do, she can feel me pulling away, contemplating leaving. If it were not for her pulling me back, pleading with me, trying to get me to shift my focus to the positive momentum we have created, I likely would have left already. At the end of the day, it's not what I want - none of this is what I have wanted, ever, but it's where I am.

As far as the marriage ending, it's a possibility. I recognize that. But in truth, it was a possibility from the day we tied the knot and I recognized that from day 1 even though I never thought it would happen. Statistically we had a 50/50 shot, now probably a 30% chance of succeeding if those figures are correct.


----------



## happyman64

RS

In addition to my questions above I have another question for you.

Have you ever separated or walked away from your wife for a period of time?

Have you ever taken some "space" from each other?

HM


----------



## CASE_Sensitive

RS, what would you say is more of an issue for you to overcome?

1) POSOM going unpunished/getting away relatively unscathed?
2) Wife's original false reconciliation?
3) Not knowing if there's more to the story?


----------



## Road Scholar

How often does she reject you, when you initiate?
How often does she preemptively block you by saying she's tired, headache, not feeling well?

Very rarely do I get shut down these days. Our sex life has improved dramatically over the past several months both in terms of frequency but also enjoyment. She is much more willing generally speaking. I think part of that stems from her/our realization that this unmet need in the past has led to other problems in our relationship - resentment, frustration, anger, etc. - and she is trying to do her part to address it. I think part of it is that she genuinely feels closer to me and more connected to me than ever before. We have both made a conscious effort to treat each other with a greater amount of respect and appreciation. We not only feel it, but express it, which was my problem specifically, verbally communicating the things I valued and appreciated. I don't let things go unsaid anymore.

I would say we equally initiate at this point which balances things out to where things should be. In the past I would hesitate to initiate because I wouldn't want to get rejected. That's not a concern for me at this point.


----------



## Road Scholar

azteca1986 said:


> What lesson did she learn? She didn't even attempt to be completely truthful with you. What does she mean by 'that sort of thing'? She knows. You don't.
> 
> You won't find the answers your looking for on the internet. The person with the greatest power to ease your mind is the person who betrayed you. Twice over.
> 
> Sorry you're still in the same place, RS.


I really don't feel that I am in the same place. We have made progress there is no doubt about that. I am much stronger and I have begun to come to terms with all of this. I am able to distance myself from it somehow, not all the time but sometimes. When I focus on the aspects of the affair and how she treated me then, I feel much weaker and victimized. It's as if I give power to her or give power to the darkness of this whole situation. I try to avoid going through that these days because it's a cycle I have been through too many times. Heck just last week I was very very down. I hope I am able to stay positive. I pulled out of it with her help again and by listening to her side of things. She was confused. She was weak. She f*'d up big time. She knows this and acknowledges it. There is so much I don't understand about just how that could happen and I never will. I pray I can live with not being able to fully understand how all that could happen. My goal is to be happy. That cycle doesn't make me happy it makes me sad, resentful, hurt. I choose (when I can) not be in that place. Sometimes I can, sometimes I can't and that sucks, but I think it's improving. 

Focusing on what we are doing now to rebuild our life is what makes me happy. Focusing on seeing my kids every morning and every night makes me happy. Showing appreciation for my wife when she does something thoughtful for me makes me happy. Treating her with respect and love and her doing the same for me makes me happy.

I feel we both look at this now and are very thankful we still have a chance to make things right for each other and our family. In a way, we're BOTH giving each other another chance by giving our relationship/marriage another chance. There are no guarantees.

And yes, sometimes when I'm feeling vengeful, I still want her to pay for what she did. But what does that get me/us in the end?


----------



## Road Scholar

bandit.45 said:


> Her affair was like a lightning bolt hitting an old ancient oak tree. That tree can appear healthy for years afterwards, but deep inside the heartwood there is a slow rot occurring. It will eventually spread through the whole tree and kill it, despite your best efforts or hers.
> 
> I agree with the others that she has not given it her best effort. Four counseling sessions? Four? Wow.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think I like the comparison of a lightning bolt hitting me (the oak tree) but not the ancient part.  I have shown a strength through this process that I didn't know I had. I have also shown weakness that has surprised me too. I hope that the inner damage that has been done can be healed and the scar tissue that forms is stronger. (I think someone here posted that once)

I don't feel every script is the same, at least not with regard to reconciliation. Similarities for sure. Timing is everything. I haven't pushed hard on the IC or MC because in the end I feel it's what we do for each other that matters ultimately. In some cases I feel it can help, in other cases I feel it might hurt.


----------



## Road Scholar

walkonmars said:


> How are the kids - surely they know all is not well in the Scholar household.


Actually, we are doing fairly well in that department, now. Early on in the process after DDay1 and DDAY2, there were long talks in the bedroom behind closed doors. Some heated, most tearful. They saw quite a range of emotions as you can all imagine. I'm sure they noticed something was up. They were also very suspicious when we would leave for MC sessions after DD1.

A few months ago, my daughter, 11 found the book 'Not Just Friends' and asked through her tears if that's what we have been fighting and talking about. It broke my heart and I lied my ass off. It's not anything I want her to be thinking about at her tender age. I know I'm right about that. At one point she also heard me tell my wife that I needed to be apart from her and we should separate to see how we are without each other. Again, it broke my heart to see what that did to her.

Since those episodes, things have been pretty stable from the kids perspective.


----------



## LongWalk

I think your wife understands that you are being a leader. The way you handled your daughter's question was decisive. You most certainly should not have burdened her with this dark history that threatens her security. If she were 14 or 15 you could not get away with it so easily.

Did you give your wife a heads up so that she would back up the story in the event that your daughter questioned her? (It could be eyes alone that would be enquiring).

Do you feel that the positive things that are happening in your marriage the book of your life together may have two terrible chapters but many more positive ones, especially as time goes on, so that the net will be overwhelmingly positive.

People survive wars and other terrible tragedies, not all can pull themselves together but it is possible.

I started a new thread, based on your experience.

Perhaps you have never asked your wife about the first weekend that you had hysterical bonding after Dday2. At that point she still belonged to OM, so having sex with you was a betrayal of him. Did she feel genuine and complete desire and passion for you then. How many times did you have to have sex before she knew it could work.

How many times did it is take before she no longer felt like she belonged to him?

She may wish to answer this honestly. I don't see how she can actually fail because the truth will be a good enough answer for you.

Also, as you relationship goes forward, you may go places sexually that weren't before. If you are strong and confident, that should enhance your ability to attract her and maybe make her want to give more of herself.

Although living for revenge is generally not healthy, I think it can play role in healing. Giving POSOM some kind of hell is not a bad thing. If you can get the karma bus to swing round, so that the thunk of him going down will sound briefly on the busy road of life, you can smile to yourself.

Have you ever invited your wife to drink grey goose and soda... maybe you should offer her a different brand and tell her that you hope it will do. If you can laugh and bring it off, she may find it embarrassing but reassuring at the same time.


----------



## MEM2020

Road,
It sounds like you are steadily piloting the ship to true north. 

And also that R2 is continuing to demonstrate empathy and remorse. 

My main hope for you is that you continue to encourage, and when needed demand a high level of ongoing honesty from yourself and R2. She's chosen to stay with you, and prioritize you. That's real and it's something you ought to feel good about. 

The chorus line on this thread is fixated on you forcing her to fully disclose the extent of her post Dday physicality. I'm not on that line because I have no idea whether her refusal to do so was driven by a desire to protect the marriage, or to protect herself. 

Have you ever had a conversation along the lines of: I know you aren't willing to fully disclose the specifics of your post DD1 affair. That said you need to accept that I KNOW you slept with the OM a LOT more often than you admitted. 

And then leave it at that. You know she lied about it, you don't like it. She just needs to know that after DD2, you weren't the same gullible guy she fooled after DD1. 







Road Scholar said:


> How often does she reject you, when you initiate?
> How often does she preemptively block you by saying she's tired, headache, not feeling well?
> 
> Very rarely do I get shut down these days. Our sex life has improved dramatically over the past several months both in terms of frequency but also enjoyment. She is much more willing generally speaking. I think part of that stems from her/our realization that this unmet need in the past has led to other problems in our relationship - resentment, frustration, anger, etc. - and she is trying to do her part to address it. I think part of it is that she genuinely feels closer to me and more connected to me than ever before. We have both made a conscious effort to treat each other with a greater amount of respect and appreciation. We not only feel it, but express it, which was my problem specifically, verbally communicating the things I valued and appreciated. I don't let things go unsaid anymore.
> 
> I would say we equally initiate at this point which balances things out to where things should be. In the past I would hesitate to initiate because I wouldn't want to get rejected. That's not a concern for me at this point.


----------



## LongWalk

> Have you ever had a conversation along the lines of: I know you aren't willing to fully disclose the specifics of your post DD1 affair. That said you need to accept that I KNOW you slept with the OM a LOT more often than you admitted.


:iagree: The key to what Mem is saying is that you don't even need an answer from her. You also need to pick the right time to say this.


----------



## TRy

Road Scholar said:


> A few months ago, my daughter, 11 found the book 'Not Just Friends' and asked through her tears if that's what we have been fighting and talking about. It broke my heart and I lied my ass off.


 I know that you think that you were doing the right thing here, but what you did will hurt your relationship with your daughter for the rest of your life. I was much younger than your daughter when I found out about my Dad's affair, and that they had been lying to me. Since I was so young, I did not appreciate just how bad a thing that an affair was until years later. What impacted me more was the secrecy and lying. It is funny, studies show that the betrayed spouse usually gets over the sex of an affair far faster than they get over the secrecy and lying associated with the affair, yet so many cheaters get the betrayed to buy into continuing the secrecy and lying to the children. The truth is you are not protecting the children, and they will find out eventually. What you are really doing is protecting the cheater, just like the cheater protected hurting you by lying and keeping the affair a secret from you.

Stop lying to your daughter right now. It is more important that she trust her parents than she not know about an affair that she already suspects and will eventually learn of. When she gets older, you will need to call on that trust to help guide her; that trust better be there when you need it.


----------



## hopefulgirl

The BEST book of all for jump-starting R, IMHO, is How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair by MacDonald. And I recommend that you read it first, highlight the parts you want her to see, and then give it to her.

She will learn that rather than trying to put it all behind (which is a self-centered way of dealing with this), the way to help YOU is for her to realize that you are thinking about it every day and for her NOT to be afraid to bring it up - that she should be proactive: apologizing often, and asking often if YOU need to talk about it. Until YOU let her know that you want to let a few days go by without mention of it.

Most WS's don't get the "trauma" aspect of this, how we BS's are consumed by thoughts of the affair in the first year to two years. The MacDonald book helps them to "get" it. This book made a significant difference in the R in my marriage, and in Mr & Mrs John Adams' marriage - they recommend it too.

Also, you may be hesitant about MC (and if she wasn't really ready the first time you tried it, I can see why you didn't get much out of it), but it's VERY difficult to make progress in R without it. But make sure the counselor has experience in working in the area of infidelity - this is very important. Not all of them do. A good counselor is like a coach: someone who is working to get the team functioning better, moving forward together, but dealing with the problems in a constructive way that doesn't leave anyone feeling bad about themselves. The focus is on growing as a couple and learning and making progress, and dealing with the difficult issues in a safe setting.


----------



## LongWalk

Try,

Giving the daughter the truth can be done later.
Of course, she is not a dumb kid. The presence of the book cannot really be explained away. She will not forget it.

Siblings talk about this kind of stuff when there are triggers for them, e.g., a friend's parents get divorced. They read about the marital collapse of a celebrity or sports hero.


----------



## azteca1986

LongWalk said:


> Try,
> 
> Giving the daughter the truth can be done later.
> Of course, she is not a dumb kid. The presence of the book cannot really be explained away. She will not forget it.


Not at the expense of telling outright lies now. Telling lies when the kid has already put two and two together only damages the credibility of RS with his child.

It's rugsweeping, nothing else . Mommy has to live with her bad choices - it's a consequence of the affair she chose to have.


----------



## LongWalk

Well, perhaps it could be part of the healing for RS and his wife to agree to tell the children that mom had boyfriend, which hurt dad's feelings, but the two of them have straightened it out and that the two of them should not worry. Both parents love them and will do so regardless of their troubles.

Furthermore, they could add that they decided to explain the situation because they are such mature children. Afterwards they would have question and answer time. If mommy loses it and cries and everyone hugs maybe its not a bad thing for a family.


----------



## bandit.45

If you can live with half truths then go for it I guess. It's hour life, not ours.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

My daughter resents my ex for two lies she told when she was 8. She found out when she was 16 and the guilt for blaming me, plus the revelation, destroyed their relationship to this day. She is actually paying to remove her mom's last name from her child. Yep, it involved infidelity. It's your life, every family situation is different and you know your child better than us, but I'd contemplate an apology and a sanitized version of the truth.


----------



## hopefulgirl

The book NOT Just Friends provides some excellent "scripts" in the chapter called "Healing Together," recognizing that kids figure out that there's tension between the parents, and that some kids do find out (one way or another) what actually happened. Kids aren't stupid - think of it from the daughter's perspective. She knows there's been tension, and then she found that book. Do you really think she totally bought whatever lame story you told her? You might want to read Shirley Glass' suggestions about what to say, then consider having a talk soon to explain why you thought you had to be dishonest with her.

At 11, was there ANY place in your house that you DIDN'T dig into? If it's not under lock and key, consider it NOT a secret hiding place from a kid!


----------



## turnera

I'm mad that no one ever told me the truth about why my folks split up. Even madder that no one told me that he tried to come back and my mom wouldn't let him - and I never knew. I always thought he didn't like her/me and that she was a wimp; turns out SHE was the strong one, he was an ass, and had I known, I'd have modeled myself after her to be strong like her. Didn't find out til my late 40s.


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## LongWalk

So telling the children is an important test for R?


----------



## Openminded

Children are far more perceptive than parents think and when they aren't comfortable with the answers they get then they begin to fill in the blanks themselves. And they are usually wrong. It's better to tell them the truth. It doesn't have to be every detail but it does need to be the truth.


----------



## jerry123

LongWalk said:


> Barbados could be right. However, if you become a stronger person and become the leader in your marriage, your wife may grow to love you more. The strength you gained by being ready to divorce her attracted her back. But you cannot live with a constant threat of divorce.
> 
> You can hit the gym, cultivate your hobbies and dominate your wife in the bedroom. Read Jerry123. He is a tool and die maker who became a SAHD. His wife is a successful executive and lost respect for him. She probably cheated but he could never prove it. By threatening divorce and putting up with zero put downs he forced her to back track. Sex is power struggle. He makes her enjoy herself. His wife is not even as sympathetic a character.
> 
> Acoa is a guy who is divorcing his WW after false R. She was still cheating. She loves him. He loves her, but he will not accept her deceit. Two strikes and you're out.
> 
> So it depends on the people involved.
> 
> Above all be strong. Easy to say but if you treat yourself with self respect and regard, your wife will love you more.




Yup, it's all about how you "frame" yourself...if you show your wife you can be walked on, she will do it. Took me a good 2 years to change "me"...notice how i said me?? You can never try and change a wife, only yourself...if the wife likes/respects the new "you" then you have won. If she does not then just move on to someone who does.
With me it's a daily battle. A battle i win every time.

I still have no proof my wife may have cheated but i now know what to look for. It had all the classic flags.
I'm in a much better place now.


----------



## treyvion

jerry123 said:


> Yup, it's all about how you "frame" yourself...if you show your wife you can be walked on, she will do it. Took me a good 2 years to change "me"...notice how i said me?? You can never try and change a wife, only yourself...if the wife likes/respects the new "you" then you have won. If she does not then just move on to someone who does.
> With me it's a daily battle. A battle i win every time.
> 
> I still have no proof my wife may have cheated but i now know what to look for. It had all the classic flags.
> I'm in a much better place now.


You can get cheated on from not losing that battle. But personally I would rather be cheated on for not getting trampled versus getting trampled and cheated on as well.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

LongWalk said:


> So telling the children is an important test for R?


I don't consider it a test, unless you mean something different.


----------



## azteca1986

LongWalk said:


> So telling the children is an important test for R?


In this case it serves as an accurate barometer of the R; lies, deceit and withholding of important information* is still rife. As RS stated R can come in many flavours. What many of us are still trying to do is provide their new marriage with the best possible foundation.

*Obvisously an 11 year old shouldn't get full disclosure of current events. They need to know that the arguing they've overheard has nothing to do with them. As Turnera's post sadly reminds us, children have a horrible habit of blaming themselves.


----------



## Road Scholar

LongWalk said:


> How was it a hell for her? It didn't feel that bad when she was having intercourse with him. Was it hell because she feared divorce? Shame? Embarrassment? Or what she was doing to you?


Yes I struggle with that part of it also. Obviously whatever she was feeling during that time was worth the risk of getting caught, losing her husband, and the family as we knew it. I think she painted such a poor picture of our life that she was willing to toss it aside. She is a very smart woman but also pretty immature in many ways. Selfish in many ways and has been used to putting herself first. I do feel her eyes have been opened or the fog has lifted and she sees that our life wasn't nearly as bad as she made it out to be. We had our challenges, our struggles, our problems but maybe no more than any other couple that had been together for 20 years (14 married). I feel like she looked at the situation as I can't believe this is happening to us. Like we're splitting up heading toward divorce because we're so unhappy and I've found the one person that makes me happy. I know she felt she loved him and was in love with him during that time. She didn't fault herself at that time. It was just happening to her versus her actually pursuing it and allowing it all to happen. It must be a different reality when you're in that mindset. You tell yourself all kinds of sh*t to justify what's really taking place. Evil.



LongWalk said:


> Was the sexless period after Dday 2?


The sexless period was after DDay1. We went to MC IC and after 1 month she was back together with him. That continued for 5 months. It was a very difficult time for me. Of course, I felt that we were trying to save our marriage. It turns out only I was. It was hell. I handled it wrong, I think, but had I handled it differently maybe the chance we now have would not have been an option. She was over her head and drowning and confused. She just didn't know it. Yes it was her choice. I don't know how she was able to lead a double life like that for so long and continue with the lies and deceit. Lack of honesty and integrity I guess. I could see myself falling for another woman. I could even see myself being weak to the point of sleeping with another woman. But to carry on with an affair for so long and then after having it discovered, be able to resume it risking my marriage and family for months, is what I cannot grasp nor understand, but trying desperately to forgive for the sake of my family. I ask for the grace of God to be able to do it.



LongWalk said:


> She started having sex and crying when she realized you were checked out. That is what made and impression on her. Demanding a timeline at this late stage seems pointless. You already know plenty of bad stuff about the affair which was a total betrayal.


Agreed. Total and complete betrayal - disgusting and pathetic behavior. I probe certain aspects of that time occasionally for a better understanding and to test her reaction but specific dates and is usually met with I don't even remember anymore. 



LongWalk said:


> My advice is to reread Turnera and the others. We all remember you because you have given us a thoughtful and moving account of one of the biggest decisions of your life.
> 
> 1) Your wife loved the OM or love the sex with him and that is why she did not return to intimacy for months. Both of you are smart enough to know that this cannot be denied and it is the reason she did not want to provide a timeline.
> 
> At the end of the day she had to get a fix from the OM, regardless of you or your efforts.
> 
> 2) I do see what your wife means by saying that she is fighting to keep you together now and that she owes it to the both of you.
> 
> 3) Does she see a better, stronger more passionate love down the road. How does she convey this incentive?


Yes I believe she does. I do feel like she was not happy with our relationship, but I also feel like part of that stemmed from her own issues from childhood and her parent's divorce. She was much more needy of me and I did not get that. It created a vicious circle of resentment taking form in many ways in our relationship. We have learned from this for sure, now it remains to be seen if we can still salvage what we have and apply that knowledge. It is going to take strong commitment, a strong will, love, forgiveness, humility, grace and selflessness on both parts. She claims what we have now is what everyone wants. What she has wanted. In many ways I thought we had that already before all this. She didn't. My eyes are opened now. I feel she needed more from me but didn't know how to get it. I didn't know how to give it or wasn't willing to.



LongWalk said:


> 4) Can you hurt the OM in the eyes of your wife? Was he married? What consequences were there for him?


I put him on cheaterville after DDAY2 with picture. As far as I know, my wife does not know. His wife knows. I went on a letter writing campaign - his house, his neighbors, etc. At one point she called, we spoke. She was b*tchy, felt threatened. I backed off. I search his name and it comes up on the first or second page (I forget). ~250K hits. I stopped short of contacting his boss who is the COO and I am acquaintances with him through friends of friends. I feel he would be fired if I were to expose but you never know. I emailed the story to his work email but I don't know if the spam filters caught it. Many times I have contemplated having a chat with him over the phone but again do not want to hurt my wife's reputation and I don't know how he would view it anyhow. It is in many respects a personal matter.



LongWalk said:


> 5) Finding peace within. One thread that might interest you is neuklas's. He and his wife have two children and she has been uninterested in sex for the past 7 years. He is doing a modified 180 and she has responded by becoming physically more affectionate.


Will look into it thanks. I don't spend much time on the site because I am trying to stay positive and sometimes the heartbreaking stories here put me on a negative tact. I do want to give back though and help others if my story can at all, which is why I check in periodically. I think we all need to remember that we are human and make mistakes incomprehensible mistakes sometimes. If she remains contrite and remorseful I will help her learn from hers so we can both heal together. If not, I know I gave it my all and that it will have been worth it. 



LongWalk said:


> Now, though, he must deal with 7 years of resentment. He is angry at himself for putting up with it for so long.
> 
> Resentment is something that is spoiling your lives.
> 
> Becoming happy without depending on her affirmation would seem to be a must. Do you think deciding to end your marriage would bring enormous relief? Do you fear that hanging on with eat you up inside in the long run?


I don't feel by ending it I will feel relieved. I think it would make me incredibly sad to see my family split up and to see my kids go through that pain. As well as my own. That is why I am trying so hard and as long as she is trying also and there is a chance of still having the dream, I will continue to chase it. One day my hope is this fades from memory enough to be mostly happy. I see glimpses of that already.



LongWalk said:


> By the way, has she ever asked you if you have a desire for a revenge affair? Have you ever asked her if she worries that you will now stray?


At one point she did mention something along those lines but not exactly. It was more along the lines of there's no guarantee. At some point you could meet someone and say this is the fresh start I have needed and be gone. Above all we both realize it is a choice to stay and a choice to leave. We are both choosing to stay and work on this together. It's painful at times. It's rewarding at times. It's by no mean easy but I feel the end goal with us both focused on it, is worth giving it a shot. I have almost thrown in the towel more times than I can count over the past ~9 months, but something has kept me fighting for us. Partly her efforts, partly mine, and if you will all indulge I think partly the grace of GOD.

I hope all on this site find happiness, inner peace and love as we all deserve but sometimes you have to fight for what you want too.


----------



## Road Scholar

Sweet...finally figured out how to do the partial quote/replies.


----------



## warlock07

You are your own biggest enemy. You cleaned up and patched up any external injuries but the body is rotting from within due to the internal destruction.

She gets away with a lot because she knows she can get away with it. Once your initial anger and the emotion of D-day went away, she is back to her selfish behavior because she know you... And you are too scared to rock the boat any further for the family..


----------



## turnera

What have been her consequences?


----------



## Road Scholar

Chaparral said:


> I'm going off on a different tangent. You sold your motorcycle? Wtf? What did she sell? I don't see a problem with changing/improving yourself but what has she done?
> 
> I think you haven't read the mmslp book. Its a book about being a man that attacts a woman. My hunch is you changed after marriage. You became overly domesticated and by default became less attractive.
> 
> If you are giving up your motorcycle and doing other things to become a "better" husband, there is a good chance you are making the wrong changes.
> 
> Get the mmslp book linked to below, and both of you study the NOT JUST FRIENDS book.
> 
> You can hold this thing together but not like you are doing it.


----------



## Road Scholar

Chaparral said:


> I'm going off on a different tangent. You sold your motorcycle? Wtf? What did she sell? I don't see a problem with changing/improving yourself but what has she done?
> 
> I think you haven't read the mmslp book. Its a book about being a man that attacts a woman. My hunch is you changed after marriage. You became overly domesticated and by default became less attractive.
> 
> If you are giving up your motorcycle and doing other things to become a "better" husband, there is a good chance you are making the wrong changes.
> 
> Get the mmslp book linked to below, and both of you study the NOT JUST FRIENDS book.
> 
> You can hold this thing together but not like you are doing it.


I bought the bike roughly 2 years ago now. My mid life crisis I guess. I had always wanted so I figured what the hell. Picked up a used crotch rocket for $2K. After DDay1, yeah that was part of me trying to undo what I felt may have contributed to the situation. It doesn't bother me at all.

Over the years one of her biggest complaints was me going out with my friends all the time and feeling insecure about my feelings for her. Well, the last 5 years I would say I have put much more energy and focus on my family. I guess I began to see my priorities more clearly and saw that I wasn't putting my true priorities first so I made an effort to change that.

I need to pick up both books again. I have them both but haven't been reading either one diligently. I thought being a good husband and father was to become more domesticated. Help with cooking, cleaning, grocery shopping, etc. I think mature women with their values and self esteem in tact appreciate what they have. Others look at what they don't have and blame their partner for their unhappiness. Happiness comes from within I'm convinced. Others can augment it one way or another unless it's something pretty extreme.


----------



## Road Scholar

harrybrown said:


> Marriage is tough, especially with her cheating and continued cheating.
> 
> You can not make it work by yourself. She does not have to work to make the marriage better. You have and continue to do so.


I do feel that she is working to make it better, maybe not doing everything perfectly but she is trying.



harrybrown said:


> She did not face any consequences in the past for her cheating. When she cheats again, she will do a better job of hiding it from you. She got to have her fun and she will again.
> 
> How old are your kids now? Are you staying just for the kids now?


Kids are now 12 and 10. I don't feel I am staying for the kids but they are a big factor in my deciding to stay and try to work through this. If I were miserable every time I saw her and was with her, I would leave. I would. I'm not miserable. Sometimes I'm very happy, sometimes I'm very sad. I'm waiting to see which one takes over.



harrybrown said:


> Do you know the people from her new job? You can not trust your wife. She does not respect you.
> 
> She is still thinking of herself and her "pain". She is not doing any counseling to change. She did so much for the OM. When was the last time she had contact with the OM? She is not doing anything for you, she really treated the OM so much better than she treats you.
> 
> I do wish you happiness someday. But she still does not love you and she is not the person you ever thought she was, she loves herself and probably the kids.
> 
> She does not love you. How could you do what she did and is still doing to you if she did love you? If she loved you, she would move heaven and earth to try to help with your pain.
> 
> What is she doing for you? no timeline, no counseling, still thinks of her pain and not yours, not reading to make any changes, but most likely back into another A or continuing the old, but doing all the communication thru her work .


Well, we have 20 years into this and for the majority of the 20 she treated me pretty well. Sure we were on a roller coaster for some of that with highs and lows, with plenty of good times and some bad times. For what I'll call a year she treated me like sh*t and crapped on me. I'm justified in walking out and I know that. I guess I don't want to give up on her when she is trying even if imperfectly. I feel she does love me but I do struggle with how she was able to treat me that way.


----------



## Road Scholar

happyman64 said:


> RS
> 
> In addition to my questions above I have another question for you.
> 
> Have you ever separated or walked away from your wife for a period of time?
> 
> Have you ever taken some "space" from each other?
> 
> HM


No we haven't , aside from a few business trips I was on and one that she was on. 

I've come close but never pulled the trigger for various reasons. Her pleading for me to stay. Kids possibly getting upset. In truth partly my own fear that it would be over at that point.

I wonder if being apart would provide more clarity or we would just get used to being apart and get used to it.

Thoughts?


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: No sex after her affair...*



Road Scholar said:


> I do feel that she is working to make it better, maybe not doing everything perfectly but she is trying.
> 
> 
> 
> Kids are now 12 and 10. I don't feel I am staying for the kids but they are a big factor in my deciding to stay and try to work through this. If I were miserable every time I saw her and was with her, I would leave. I would. I'm not miserable. Sometimes I'm very happy, sometimes I'm very sad. I'm waiting to see which one takes over.


Don't you think that if she made a truthful and concerted effort happy would win out over sad?


----------



## Lovemytruck

Road Scholar said:


> Kids are now 12 and 10. I don't feel I am staying for the kids but they are a big factor in my deciding to stay and try to work through this. If I were miserable every time I saw her and was with her, I would leave. I would. I'm not miserable.  Sometimes I'm very happy, sometimes I'm very sad. I'm waiting to see which one takes over.


Your ability to articulate your state of mind is impressive. I felt I was in your shoes as described above.

My kids were older (18 and 21) when I finally stepped off of my rollercoaster. It was a bit easier knowing that they were almost adults.

Thanks for sharing. I have checked your story from time to time. It is a lesson for others in several positive ways. Your struggle is the gray area most of us find ourselves after betrayal.

I can't add much to the previous posts. Many great things have been said.

My concern is your well being. Tolerating limbo takes a toll on us.

I also feel that you, much like me, are not comfortable with anger or confrontation. It is easier to accept and feel sad than it is to be mad and push for change. Reflect on your personality type and know that controlled anger is occasionally a great motivator for change.

Best wishes. You are a gentleman. I hope you will find the type of life that you deserve.


----------



## Lovemytruck

Road Scholar said:


> No we haven't , aside from a few business trips I was on and one that she was on.
> 
> I've come close but never pulled the trigger for various reasons. Her pleading for me to stay. Kids possibly getting upset. In truth partly my own fear that it would be over at that point.
> 
> I wonder if being apart would provide more clarity or we would just get used to being apart and get used to it.
> 
> Thoughts?


My thought...

If you move out and get comfortable with it, you will never want to go back. If you move out and she sucks you in, you will prove to yourself that you are not capable of moving on.

Sounds harsh. Moving out is a good way to begin a D. I think you will enjoy it, especially if you happen to meet some decent single women during the split. Your tolerance for her has put you in a "fog" for several years. I can say I was there too.

Maybe "moving out" is a good step for both of you to begin a D process without being nasty and hostile.

My thoughts went along those lines, until she freaked out and proved to me once again that she was [email protected]!t crazy. 

Good luck! I am still glad I did it. That was almost 3 years ago.


----------



## TRy

Road Scholar said:


> Well, the last 5 years I would say I have put much more energy and focus on my family. I guess I began to see my priorities more clearly and saw that I wasn't putting my true priorities first so I made an effort to change that.
> 
> I need to pick up both books again. I have them both but haven't been reading either one diligently. I thought being a good husband and father was to become more domesticated. Help with cooking, cleaning, grocery shopping, etc.


 How did that work out for you? Didn't she start to cheat after you did this? She cheated because once you became "domesticated" (your word), she saw you as weak, and knew that no matter what she did you would never leave her. This proved true. After Dday #1, not only did she not stop the affair, but she cut you off from sex and became exclusive with her lover until Dday #2. Amazingly, even now she has not been required by you to come clean about just how extensively she cheated with the other man between Dday #1 and Dday #2. Heck, she even has you lying to your children for her. When the cheater gets to set the rule of reconciliation, it usually ends badly for the betrayed spouse.


----------



## LongWalk

Warlock and Turnera,

You know I have a lot of respect for your opinions and I think you raise good questions. However, I think RS is very generous to come and share his story. TAM is a double edged sword to him, offering him solidarity and scepticism. If there were a poll taken among readers, I guess 65% would declare this R unsound, 25% hopeful and the remaining 5% optimistic and 5% uncertain what to make of it.

I would place myself among the optimists. Why?

On some TAM CWI threads there is talk about church. Often the BS hopes that the church will shame the cheater into quitting the affair. People drop out of church. BS are surprized to see the cheater show up to church. BS and families hope pastors will take sanity into the wayward husbands and wives. But from RS I get non of this. His wife is not religious and he does not seem to call on God to change his wife, but only to give him the strength to stick out this shxty situation if that is what he should do.

I am an atheist but it impresses me that RS feels that R will never be only his wife's responsibility. He has to permit himself to believe, although the facts speak against her. She was brazen. What good are her statements about her heart when she lied so well so long? On this count neither RS nor his wife can have any illusions.

Who hasn't been in a car running very low on gas. The needle rests on empty and your imagine what is left in the tank, just wetness and vapors. Climbing every slope you expect the engine to sputter; every incline allows gravity to help. There is a sign, declaring gas at the next exit, but it seems so far away. You keep your foot on the pedal as steady as you can. An attempt to accelerate will surely waste the last drops. All the passengers are depending you the driver, as if you could will fuel into the car.

That is why RS lied to his daughter. He didn't want to tell her that mom drove the tank dry on trips to fornicate with a POS boyfriend and that is why the family might come to halt in the middle of nowhere. RS is that responsible a character.

Here is a re-cap of the Dday2: 



> asked to see her phone tonight after a minor argument... yep still having the affair





> The advise on this site has been right on. I probably should have been on here 5 months ago instead of accepting her back and trying to forgive and reconcile from day 1. I was trying to be strong for my family and kids and take the pain on myself. I understand that was a bad move. It was not enough of a wake up call for her. She has still been in contact with him.
> 
> Text from tonight: "Grey goose and soda. Alone at bar. Wish u were here."
> 
> I could seriously wreak havoc on them both at work tomorrow. I'm so pissed right now. Can't believe she is blowing apart our family and will destroy our kids souls. I'm sure there is more pain and hurt ahead I guess I am just sorta numb right now.
> 
> Really thought we were trying to reconcile and rebuild. I planned a 14 year anniversary get away this weekend - cost a G - and tonight she is sending text messages to him wishing he was there.
> 
> I guess good guys do finish last. Really wanted to work this **** out but I had a hard enough time trusting her the first time. I don't believe I can EVER trust her after this. The last 5 months I have been in much pain fighting through this trying to be strong for my family and trying to give the benefit of the doubt and let her feelings come around. So so stupid. Catholic upbringing/training hasn't helped me with this.





> I told her I was filing for divorce and there is no way I could ever trust her again. On top of some mud slinging her way.
> 
> Still do not know if the physical part of the affair was reignited but for sure she is still into him which is just as bad as far as I'm concerned.
> 
> I told her at the very least to be honest with me going forward. We looked into each others eyes on Monday night in couples therapy and she swore to tell me if she ever felt anything that she would let me know before anything took place.
> 
> RS is also generous of character. The fact that he forgave his wife after Dday 1 was something she took for granted. His generosity was a well she might poison but still it would not go dry. It cannot be easy to come here and swallow the bitter medicine that is dished out on TAM.





> ... 45 years old and single again. Not really looking forward to that to be honest.
> 
> Is there any way I should take her back? I know what a fool right? I do not want to break my kids hearts. They are really great sensitive kids - 9 and 11. Breaks my heart thinking about it. We are really very close. One thing we did right anyhow, but this will absolutely crush them...
> 
> God I feel like I do not even know who this woman is anymore.





> Without defending her whatsoever but rather to portrary an accurate picture. She is remorseful now, again, after having been caught. Tears, snot, sobbing, etc. all that. I was unmoved.
> 
> Last night, as I held her phone in my hand, was looking at her text to him, "Wish you were here", and asked her if she has been in contact with him at all. Her reply, "No, not at all."
> 
> So remorseful of where we are at in our marriage maybe but not true remorse for her actions. I mean she despises what she did and who that makes her because she is has always railed against cheaters and now she is one. Just like her mother whom she has had deep resentment and other "issues" with over the years.
> 
> Still last night was talking about how unhappy she was. I never knew it. First idea I really had how serious things were was 2 days before DDay. That was my wakeup call and was prepared to do whatever it took to save us, change improve myself, rededicate, etc. Two days later I found out the truth of what had been going on.





> I may get nuked by you all for this but I am a rookie at this and somehow still in love with my wife after all this. I never thought that would be the case by the way. EVER. My motto I would tell people was run don't walk away. I am a strong and confident person and yes this has crushed me to some degree but I am fighting through it and will be back at some point to my former self. I love my family. I love my kids. I still love my screwed up wife.
> 
> I sent her a text this am that for the last 5 months I have done nothing but show her I truly love her and wanted to work on building that relationship we talked about, letters, cards, outpouring of my soul to her, fun outings, dates, affection, everything she felt she was missing. She has shown me the opposite. How bad everything was. How unhappy she has been. Everything I did to screw it up and make her unhappy basically. Worse yet still being in communication with him - or worse don't know if the physical contact was rekindled. (After all he is married and out of state - but realize its a possibility.) I let her know I plan to file for Divorce but also said the ball is in your court if you want to save this marriage. Left the door open a little I guess. Do I shut it at least for now?
> 
> NOW, she is asking (texting because I am not answering my phone) if I would give her another chance. That she doesn't want to lose me and family. That I am a wonderful, kind, caring compassionate man and she has taken me for granted.
> 
> Now what? File and let it play out. Finally feel like i have a little juice after eating sh*t for 5 months.
> 
> The first 5 months have been a yo-yo back and forth up and down. maybe because I was letting her play me for the fool I was. If I give her another shot, will the next 5 months be any better? Can I trust her again? I would definitely be calling the shots this time around but still. And I am not saying I would do this immediately if at all. Just curious as to what you all think. I'm not a wuss but if this can be salvaged I still think it might be worth it. Of course, i could be wrong too.
> 
> Clearly TAM has strengthened RS because it has given him a reference point. 50,000ft is a cold and lonely place. I am sure that it is easier to go their if you know that are personalities, virtual but nonetheless real, who are waiting for a report. They are sympathetic.





> I am a practicing Catholic and have been really trying to take that approach and take the high road. She has always just went along with going to church, etc. If it weren't for me pushing it it wouldn't happen. Just for some background on me...and my flaws. Two flawed people trying to figure sh*t out.
> 
> Irish + Catholic + Temper = Guilt.
> 
> I have done things for which I am truly remorseful for...on three occasions over 20 year history (6 dating, 14 married) things got physical between the two of us. I am not a wife beater by any stretch but there had been some physical contact between us which I feel has been my part in contributing to our dysfunctional marriage. Nothing like that would ever happen again and sickens me that it ever did. But feel the need to come clean with you all again for a true picture. I am no saint but still a decent to good husband and great father. I have also been known to go silent and shut down for a couple days. Again my contribution to a poor marital situation. I cannot change history although I wish I could. I have learned much about myself during this process and have become a better person I think already in many respects.
> 
> I feel more in control today than I have in the 5 months and I am ready to walk and file for D. Part of me feels I should walk part of me feels a responsibility to allow her to prove to me she will do what it takes to earn my trust and my love back.
> 
> If it got physical with him in the last 5 months I do not think I could take her back but she claims it ended back in May and they only talked as "friends". she said she thought she could maintain the friendship while trying to figure things out with us. I don't know how else to verify if it was physical or not.
> 
> I guess it shouldn't matter. I'm sure texts/emails are long gone. I guess a polygraph might flush that out. In the end she lied and continued to call/text/im when she told me she was no longer in contact. So DDay 2 I guess from a betrayal point of view.
> 
> We both make very good money and she actually makes more than I do. The AP is an executive and has a lot to lose. in terms of comp, house value $1.2M, etc. Hard to blow him up without blowing her up in the process - same company.
> 
> Oh and her phone is an older droid Samsung.





> I sent a text that if you want to show me this is important to you then resign today. She would find another job within a few months as she is smart and attractive. She is reluctant to quit but said she will start looking immediately. She is afraid of losing our home. We have 401K $ we could tap into for hardship if needed. It would be a strong sign she is serious, but would she resent it later? I know it's a poor financial move but would make a BIG statement to me.
> 
> I mailed the AP's wife a letter explaining her husband has been having an affair and added some specifics. I have tried calling the home numerous times but no answer. I left a voicemail at the home this am for the first time to call me back. So far no call back. Maybe she knows already. I will make sure of it.
> 
> To clarify, he is the executive with high compensation and million dollar house not me...not that it matters really other than much to lose. Oh he has been divorced once before, so she really picked a winner over me.





> Last night she was hysterically, begging, pleading, sobbing uncontrollably for me to give her another chance. Actually said, I'm begging you.
> 
> She told me my decision to file for divorce was her wake up call and never saw me that serious about it before. I had my mind made up that I was going to file for the first time in my life and I am against divorce but at the time felt I had no other choice even though by doing so I would inflict a great deal of pain into my kids life for the rest of their life....and complicate mine forever as well.
> 
> I said what about the last 5 months where I have been going through hell trying to save our marriage and all the excruciating pain I have been enduring, and the counseling, and BS reconciliation, meanwhile last night you send a text saying "wish you were here".
> 
> She asked me to give her this gift of one more chance to allow her to show me how serious she is and how committed to me she is.
> Last night I asked her to send the NC letter to him and copy me. She complied and sent it this am and BCC'd me. I think its soft and I'm rather disappointed with it. I wish I had written it instead. What do you all think of it?
> 
> xxxx- xxxxx and I have decided that we are 100% committed to giving our marriage another chance. In order to have any hope of being successful, you and I can no longer communicate, even as friends. I know you understand and are completely focused on your marriage but I wanted to make sure we are all on the same page.
> xxx
> 
> Part of me is happy to see the change in heart finally but I am still very guarded. I don't want divorce if this can be salvaged but do not want to play the fool again. I am asking myself if she was with him in the last 5 months, does that matter if she is now ready to reconcile. I know she has already slept with him before. I cannot prove she has been with him in the last 5 months since he lives out of town. Everyone on this site seems to think she has for sure. They definitely both had the means to. Can I take that risk again to try to save family if she is now finally out of the fog? She does appear to be 100% sincere and remorseful.
> 
> I don't want to throw this away if it can be saved and save my family, spare my kids, break the cycle of divorce in my wife's family, but is this the walk away point? Do I just say its been enough and move on with my life and start over?
> 
> I'm really thinking about blowing this guy up at work but it may impact my wife also. She has said she will be looking for a new job and has committed to leaving. I made it clear that I would turn his professional/personal life upside down if he contacted my wife in any way. If possible I do not want to ruin my wife's reputation in the process. I know many of you may disagree but she is still the mother of my children.
> 
> I feel for the first time that this has started that I am in the drivers seat and wish I filed for divorce as soon as I found out if nothing else to give her the wake up call. But my wake up call came 2 days before DDay and I had already committed to reconciling with her in my mind so it was hard for me to make that shift. Might not anyhow but sur wish I had been on this site from day one. All the advice you folks are giving has been great and cheaters clearly have a pattern that is predictable, but I also believe each situation is unique in its own way too. I am no longer afraid to walk away at any point, but want to give this a fair shot before I do if it can be salvaged from the heap.
> 
> Very much appreciate all your wisdom and time you are taking to provide it!!! Thank you.





> I mailed a letter to his wife yesterday with some details of the affair.
> 
> I actually spoke to OM today and insisted he provide me with date and time he last saw my wife. I wanted to compare stories his/hers. He did not provide me with a date. Acted very remorseful, etc. etc. said he is in therapy, etc. never wanted to do this, etc. etc. It was a mistake, blah blah blah.
> 
> He is a very accomplished liar as my wife has been and he only admitted to what I told him I knew and even denied being with my wife on a date that I know he was with her. So very similar pattern deny, deny, deny even when caught red handed. Complete lying POS.
> 
> She tried to initiate sex last night after I opened door to R. I put her off. I am still very leery and wonder if I can really trust her ever again regardless of what really happened in the last 5 months. I know she continue to deceive me and to lie and to go along to counseling the whole time WHILE making me feel like we were on our way to reconciling and she just needed time before she was ready.
> 
> The text is really pretty damning and damaging in itself, but if the fog has lifted since because of my very real threat of filing for D. And she is now back and realizes how bad she f'd things up...what if? As I had mentioned or maybe not, this whole thing has been very out of character for her.
> 
> I fully agree to gauge her actions versus words because anyone that can lie as flawlessly as she was able to is very dangerous. My skin has gotten pretty thick over the last 5 months, but especially so the last two days. D is now an option for me I know that and I am not afraid to file. It wasn't before because I was taking so much of this on me. What transpired after the last 5 months has made me realize it ain't me - part of me knew that already.
> 
> Soooo, I had already spent money on a getaway weekend before I found out she was in contact with him which was not refundable, so we are going. I know either way there is still a long road ahead of me regardless the path I end up on, so I will use this weekend to see how she acts. I'm guessing now that sex will be part of the weekend so at least there is that and we'll see how everything else goes. This may be a mistake based on all the posts but I'm willing to see how it goes and realize I may be opening myself up again but at least now I see it as a real risk. I know I am strong enough if I get hurt again or lied to again and my kids deserve that much.
> 
> I will be proceeding very cautiously and taking precautions every step of the way. I will also be demanding some of the things mentioned in this post to test her resolve this weekend. I know the road ahead will not be easy and if she cannot handle the heat now I'm not going to go down that path with her. I am one foot out the door the other is not far behind based on how things go.
> 
> Again thanks.





> Back from the weekend which went as well as could be expected given circumstances and recent discovery that she has still been in contact with OM.
> 
> Personally, I went 3-for-3. What I mean is sex Fri, Sat, Sun. So 5 months of nothing while I gave everything I had and now that I'm willing to walk and file for D and move on with my life, the sex comes roaring back. I guess she feels a connection all of the sudden. What a line.
> 
> She seems to be much more vested and remorsefull now. I tried to keep the weekend mostly pleasant as our goal was to get away and have a nice weekend and demonstrate we could still be with each other and have fun together even in this incredibly difficult situation. On occassion throughout the weekend, we did discuss the situation and it ended in her sobbing, or me being somewhat on the attack verbally, basically saying to her with so much on the line you showed me so little and every indication is that you were still f**** him while telling me you loved me and going to MC, etc. I told her I needed to figure out if i could be with someone that could treat me that way. He logic is still flawed she said, "well i was afraid you would end it because that is what you told me". I was like so that mattered enough that you would lie and deceive about the contact, but not enough NOT to be in contact with him. I must have asked her 15-20 times in the last 5 months have you been in contact with him. No IMs, EMAILS, phone calls. Every time, the answer was no. It's not about me and him, it's about you and I and whether we can be happy together. It's not a competition, etc. She told me she thought she could manage it. Makes me so mad that I bought it and didn't listen to my gut which has NEVER lied to me or let me down.
> 
> I don't know, but I no longer feel the need to or desire to or feel like crying anymore. Been there done that I suppose maybe numb, maybe more aware of the true situation. Obviously still saddend by all of this and in some respects just disappointed this is where I'm at in my life right now, but still unsure of what to do really moving foward.
> 
> She admitted to looking at my phone over the weekend as saw that I texted with OM and asked me about it. I told her I haven't decided what I'm going to do with him yet and I really haven't. I told her I spoke with him also and what an utter scumbag the guy is. Denying everything. I will ensure his wife is aware of the situation and will do what I can to verify she knows. If I take him out at work, it will likely take her out also and in the back of my head I am still trying to reconcile if I am able to I guess so I don't want to put all our dirty laundry out there and damage her reputation at the same time and likely she would lose her job and be humiliated in the process. To me that is also a pretty big betrayal which I am not inclined to do right now and still prefer to keep this semi-private. I understand she did all that to me but I'm not going to stoop to that level right now. Is this a bad decision? Still trying to take the high road for now I can always play that card but once it's played I can't take it back. I don't want to become less of a person in this process. I want to become a better person as a result of it and not allow it to ruin who I am. I'm also reluctant to tell her family and my family about the affair. Some of my/her family know we are having problems but not of the details. Her brother knows and so does mine. That's it.
> 
> I am concerned about the "rug sweeping" and impact down the road and recognize I might be doing some of this unknowingly. For example, I don't know everything about the affair but I think I know enough. I would like to know if she was with him sexually in the last 5 months. I feel like she probably was but how can I confirm this? She dienies it saying it ended in May. I'm not sure if it would impact what I do going forward (if she is now begining to come out of the fog) but I need the truth about the past and as we move forward...and an my gut tells me she was still sleeping with him or did a few times during the false reconciliation. I did not go about this the right way after finding out about the affair. I was being a total ***** and trying to be the NICE GUY owning up to my mistakes and trying fix them. Clearly the wrong approach.
> 
> She keeps saying not to focus on the past, to focus on what we want moving forward, doesn't understand how it can help, she can't change the past, etc, etc. etc. She also says she realizes this is somewhat self-serving too. I really don't want to focus on the details either but is it absolutely critical I know everything? I don't want to be haunted by every little detail but I also don't want lingering questions years from now. What about this? What about that? Again is this more of a test for her to come clean and bring everything into the light of day?? How important is it for me to understand all aspects of the affair before moving forward? I don't want to be back here in 2 or 3 years or ever for that matter and I am willing to lose the marriage reluctantly at this point so want to do what is necessary now to be successful in long term R if that is to happen. Is part of it for her to show me what she is willing to do to save our marriage by telling all and complying with every one of my requests??
> 
> She has a completely different attitude about it I can tell you that and it does look to me like remorse right now, but I have been fooled before. Or, is it combined, saddness the affair may truly be over now and fear of losing family too and being the lying cheating spouse that caused it all?? Who can be sure the fog has really lifted and she is not doing it to protect him still??
> 
> I told her she needs to go back to individual counseling since she stopped some time ago. I also let her know I mailed a letter to his wife and don't believe that she knows - although she just might. She was shocked at how much information I had on this guy and said that she thought I was trying to get revenge and what would I gain by ruining his life. She said it's not who you are.
> 
> Next, I am going to have her redo the NC letter and also the give me a timeline of events, places and other details in addition to scheduling the counseling. She has obviously been lying to her counselor and our MC for 5 months as well as everyone else.
> 
> I told her I'm not sure she knows what the truth is right now anymore. Fact is I'm not sure I know what the truth is either with where she is truly at. Time I guess will tell. In the meantime, I remain guarded...


If RS's wife had confessed the truth directly, namely that she had been having sex with OM during the false R, quite likely RS would have filed for divorce. One could argue that trickle truth saved his marriage or conversely that the second reconciliation rests upon a foundation of falsehood, stonewalling and omission.

RS,

You have have been very patient with us over these months. Shaggy and Ovid are both long gone.

I wonder if you are curious to know what went on in your wife's head after Dday 2. Even if you were only the beta plan, she must have been very nervous on that weekend. What do your recall of your conversations? We can only imagine how strained it must have been to eat dinner and then go to bed, both of you wondering if you would have sex and if so would it work or feel like a sham.

thatbpguy wrote:



> After my WW's second [known] betrayal I took the spare bedroom. After her third and I ordered her out within 10 days, the last night before she left she came to my room and was acting really strange and demanded sex and was crawling all over me. But it was just her state of mind- like she was half crazy or something.
> 
> But it was surreal. For the life of me I couldn't understand her state of mind. As if she was on drugs or something.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by GusPolinski
> Be under no illusions, sir... She knew exactly what she was doing, and she was likely "crazy" only because you didn't take the bait. (I'm assuming that you didn't.)
> 
> 
> 
> thatbpguy replied
> 
> 
> 
> Um, I opted for plan B- I drilled her like an oil well.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Mahike commented:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think the WW if she is trying to R fakes it until she makes it. The HS is about holding on to what she has, she is fighting to save or fix a marriage.
> 
> I think the true desire is something that comes about later on.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## jim123

She has not and will not be open and honest which is what is required to make it.


----------



## warlock07

Longwalk, did you read the Mathias story ?

Do you see similarities in the WW betrayal ? 2 Ddays and all...

I think I've said this a couple of times in this thread. The most frustrating part is how RS tries to delude himself. We can actually see the process of his broken rationalization in his posts... He doesn't seem to believe half of what he posts either. 

Not sure what he is scared of at this point ? he is not happy with how R is going on but he refuses to rock the boat or confront his wife. At one point, I think his wife even accused him of emotional abuse for asking questions about the affair. 

Yes, it is keeping his marriage together at this point but at what price ?


----------



## LongWalk

Yes, the 36-year-old music teacher sleeping with her 21-year-old student. She lied and started the affair up again even while the two of them were on TAM.

Turnera says that men are deceived by sex. Shaggy or someone told RA to expect sex to be thrown his way after Dday 2 and sure it enough that's what transpired.

But Will Kane said that she was lying about cheating during the false R and yet he did not suggest RS give up.

Will did suggest a timeline was necessary.

RS's wife cannot really explain how good being with OM was she feels it would be a deal killer and she could be right. That is why I suggested that he ask her to tell him how she felt about resuming their sex life. That must be a complex psychological moment. To be sure she could lie about that, too.

Will also noted that in true reconciliation the WW does not really mind if the AP ends up being destroyed.

One thing that keeps people in relationships is the investment. We cannot live our lives over. Every partner, lover, spouse has a place. Once you put most of your prime into a relationship, it is hard to condemn and repudiate it. Rug sweeping to keep it going is one interpretation of RS's situation. Working to save it is another. Perhaps the truth is lies in between? In any case, RS does not believe he is just a victim.

MrMathias got to look into his wife's head through a Skype conversation.



> Here's a Skype conversation I discovered today, from my STBXW to her OM. I asked her to contact him with me, jointly, to see her falling apart and to make it clear he is to stay away from my boy and found it quite by mistake.
> 
> I'm not sure how I missed it before, it was on her normal Skype, which I checked right after Dday1 and periodically after. I even looked for messages from him, but this one wasn't found. Whatever the case, she hadn't cleared her trail as much as she thought and I doubt me knowing about it on Dday#1 would have mattered, she was going to do it anyway.
> 
> Utterly astounding. The free pass any young buck would love to get from his target. To be fair, none of this is a surprise, she's told me this already (from Dday#1 to last night) but interesting to see it in writing, which to ME is an implicit, thought-out contract of sorts. No 21 year old knave would say no to this invitation to affair:
> 
> Quote:
> [6/10/12 12:12:16 AM]: 1. *Don’t read this drunk.
> 
> 2. *I am not asking anything of you, you don’t need to feel obligated to respond. *I’m just trying to work some things out in my head, and you are the primary person I share my thoughts with, so here goes...
> 
> I’ve been thinking a lot about your comment this afternoon. And I am absolutely NOT interested in sacrificing a lifetime friendship for a short-term more intense relationship, despite the joy we may find in that. *The thought that we may not be speaking in a year seriously flips my ****. *If you think that is really a possibility, then that's it, we chalk this up to a week of temporary insanity and go on as we did before.
> 
> I never dreamed I'd find myself in a situation like this. *I don't know how to navigate it, or even to begin to figure out which direction I want it to go. *I'm not trying to freak you out, or turn this into something more than you had intended... if you even know what that is. *But I've always been honest with you, and I want that to continue. *What we've shared is not something that I have done with many people. *Okay, with 5 people, including you. *Two of those were boyfriends/future husband, and two were me trying to figure out how *everyone around me seemed to sleep around so easily* with no emotional strings attached. And then there's you. *I'll be honest, I don't do no strings attached very well, and for me, what I've shared with you is more than just physical.
> 
> I don't want to scare you or make you think I'm all crazy Fatal Attraction or something.  *If this is primarily a physical thing with you, that's ok with me... I'm not trying to make you feel or think anything specific about this. *But I really do mean it, when i say I love you. *There are so many things I'd like to have, do, and share with you, but most of those I can't ever see happening. **Because I really do love Matt, too. *I can't even begin to describe how it feels to share this level of emotion for both of you. *Selfishly, if I could have my way and there were no complexities to life, I'd sleep every night for the remainder of my days in the middle of a CJ/Matt sandwich. But I'm sure that is a fairly repellant concept to both of you, and I know that's not the realities of life and relationships.*
> 
> I want you to be so happy and fulfilled in life. *I never want you to feel like you are a second choice, or not as important. *I see how much that hurts you when Chelsea treats you that way, even if you deny it. *I want to love you, and show you how amazing I think you are in any way available to me forever. But I will always have to balance that with my love for Matt and Asher. *So I need you to really think, before anything else is shared between us, about how you feel with sharing me. *It's too much for me to ask of you, and I know that. *Someday you will find someone who is free to make you the center of her world, and give you everything that I can't. *But, if I'm being honest, you are a vital piece in my life, and I can't imagine it without you, in some way.
> 
> So please, really look at this selfishly for you.*Ask yourself what you need and want from our relationship, and I will do everything I can to give it to you. *Be honest with yourself about what this is, and what my limitations are. *I never want to hurt you, I never want this to be something negative for us. I would rather spend the rest of my life wondering what if, rather than destroying a lasting friendship. *Please help me figure out if and/or how to step back from this before any damage is done.
> I wish she had said this:
> 
> Quote:
> I would rather spend the rest of my life wondering what if, rather than destroying a lasting marriage.
> I've had crushes, and seen myself being drawn into an EA, and always pulled back. I made a commitment, and if that meant wondering what if? despite the emotional conflict, so be it.


RS had the "Grey Goose and soda" text.

footnote: MrMathias took her back after Dday3 and found hysterical bonding confusing.


----------



## bfree

Mr. Matthias is still struggling mightily. Mrs. M recently posted that he is still contemplating separation or outright divorce. I hope that does not come to pass but it just shows how destructive deception can be as it relates to false R. It is also interesting to note that while all indications are that Mrs M is doing everything she can to support and heal Matt during this attempt at R, the same cannot be said for RS's wife. I feel that Mr and Mrs M have a much greater chance at a successful R than RS. RS and his wife might stay married but I think happiness is not necessarily going to be a part of their R if RS doesn't push for more and his wife doesn't step up her attempts to help heal him. To me that is not a successful R.


----------



## LongWalk

It's amazing how much of life involves determining what is going on in the heads of other people.

Also, defining what betrayal is difficult. If RS were now to tell his wife that he has decided to divorce, she would be upset. If he filed for divorce and handed her papers "without warning", she might find that far more terrible, perhaps perceiving it as betrayal.

MrMathias was always had difficulty with the way MrsMathias had sent out "fvck me" signals so that OM did not have to sweet talk or romance her but just put his hand straight up her skirt.


----------



## warlock07

> RS had the "Grey Goose and soda" text.


He has very little. From what i understand, he does not know much about their relationship or what was said between OM and his WW during their affair. He absolutely has no idea on why his WW is reconciling but likes to believe that they are out of good intentions. He has the Dday 2 texts and the toll gate receipts.


----------



## turnera

I'll be optimistic when she starts putting as much energy into R as he is.


----------



## TRy

LongWalk said:


> MrMathias got to look into his wife's head through a Skype conversation.


 I am glad that you posted the Skype conversation as it is a good example of how a cheater thinks. When I first read this what jumped out at me was how honesty with the affair partner was so important, yet was not important with the spouse. The affair partner got to know everything and had a choice in what would happen, while the spouse was to know nothing and had no choice; his marraige would be decided exclusively by the affair partner, with the affair partner's happiness being all that mattered. Also, in this case it was the affair partner on one side, and the husband and child on the other; her love for the husband did not stand on its own like it did with her affair partner. Below are some of the quotes that really struck me:

"*I am not asking anything of you, you don’t need to feel obligated to respond. *I’m just trying to work some things out in my head, and you are the primary person I share my thoughts with, so here goes..."

"*I'm not trying to freak you out, or turn this into something more than you had intended... if you even know what that is. *But I've always been honest with you, and I want that to continue." 

"*If this is primarily a physical thing with you, that's ok with me... I'm not trying to make you feel or think anything specific about this. *But I really do mean it, when i say I love you." 

"*I never want you to feel like you are a second choice, or not as important. *I see how much that hurts you when Chelsea treats you that way, even if you deny it. *I want to love you, and show you how amazing I think you are in any way available to me forever. But I will always have to balance that with my love for Matt and Asher."

"So please, really look at this selfishly for you.*Ask yourself what you need and want from our relationship, and I will do everything I can to give it to you."


----------



## LongWalk

She wrote: *"So please, really look at this selfishly for you.*Ask yourself what you need and want from our relationship, and I will do everything I can to give it to you."*

Basically she is acknowledging that she doesn't mean so much to him beyond sex and some ego stroking. She is willing to keep giving it to him, although it has little value to him. Sad for MrMathias.

RS felt violent primitive rage and hunted the OM at a conference at one point. OM wasn't there. But basically the male desire is to hit OM in the head with a stone. Not allowed in modern society. So much is unresolved. And how can a society in which divorce is easier than at any time in human history create a emotional impact on a cheaters?

Divorce and economic inconvenience are about the the maximum. Oh, yes, unfriend on Facebook.

MrsMathias solution was to get pregnant again. RS's wife probably never speaks about more children.

Also, RS's wife did not rush to quit her job. She could have sued the company for sexual harassment as OM was a senior executive.


----------



## happyman64

Road Scholar said:


> No we haven't , aside from a few business trips I was on and one that she was on.
> 
> I've come close but never pulled the trigger for various reasons. Her pleading for me to stay. Kids possibly getting upset. In truth partly my own fear that it would be over at that point.
> 
> I wonder if being apart would provide more clarity or we would just get used to being apart and get used to it.
> 
> Thoughts?


I know a man that separated from his wayward wife. She did not want this.

But what he did was interesting. He moved out and took an apt for 6 months. He took his two children with him. Both under 10.

His wife totally broke down in less than two months. She was devastated being in their home without the family.

She moved him and the kids back home and they ate the 4 months rent.

She got into IC and they have a really strong marriage now.

All she told him was that she finally understood that the consequences for her bad decisions was total "loss".

Maybe the separation would clear your head. 

Maybe it won't. The key is for both of you to recognize why you are staying in the marriage....


----------



## Lovemytruck

WOW!!!

Good parallels and analogies for us to consider.

RS needs a little extra on the side of proof and logic. I still am hoping he will pull the plug.

Can it get much worse?

Consider how good it can be with a "decent" wife. They exist. All of us have flaws, but it is obvious that your WW has some that are extremely worse than most.

Good luck, and keep us posted.


----------



## turnera

Akin to MB's Plan B, especially when they recommend that you go dark right before an important holiday, so the cheater has to experience a typically great holiday without his/her family.


----------



## Iver

RS,

Have you considered making her submit to a Polygraph? This is to see if she hooked up with the OM after DD1.


----------



## Lovemytruck

turnera said:


> Akin to MB's Plan B, especially when they recommend that you go dark right before an important holiday, so the cheater has to experience a typically great holiday without his/her family.


:scratchhead:

What? I missed the point. Fridays do that to me. I also have some blonde hair.


----------



## warlock07

She hooked up with the OM after D-day1. RS has the tollgate receipts. Only he does not know the frequency and his wife is still lying about it.

LongWalk did a good job summarizing a lot of RS earlier posts.

She is reconciling out of the possible reasons
1) shame (in front of her father)
2) Kids (less likely)
3) Knows that the OM will never leave his wife for her. He probably made that pretty clear. So she better not lose everything.
4)Guilt



3 (70%) ->1 (20%) -> 2 (7%) -> 4 (2%) 

I'm being a a bit facetious with the percentage thing


----------



## warlock07

> Also, RS's wife did not rush to quit her job. She could have sued the company for sexual harassment as OM was a senior executive.


What did the company do? It is also incredibly sexist and offensive


----------



## Lovemytruck

warlock07 said:


> She hooked up with the OM after D-day1. RS has the tollgate receipts. Only he does not know the frequency and his wife is still lying about it.
> 
> LongWalk did a good job summarizing a lot of RS earlier posts.
> 
> She is reconciling out of the possible reasons
> 1) shame (in front of her father)
> 2) Kids (less likely)
> 3) Knows that the OM will never leave his wife for her. He probably made that pretty clear. So she better not lose everything.
> 4)Guilt
> 
> 
> 
> 3 (70%) ->1 (20%) -> 2 (7%) -> 4 (2%)
> 
> I'm being a a bit facetious with the percentage thing


Thanks for the reader's digest version.

It seems love and attraction were not mentioned. 

Damn it RS. I wish your torment over her would end.


----------



## LongWalk

warlock07 said:


> What did the company do? It is also incredibly sexist and offensive


In our politically correct times you can sue MacDonald's for serving the coffee too hot. In the work place whenever a person who has authority makes sexual advances towards a subordinate that is frowned upon, especially when it affects employment. Companies have anti-sexual harassment policies. Do people meet and date among colleagues, sure.

Could a rewriting of the affair's history legitimately dig up the basis for a complaint or lawsuit? Depends on the facts. If a manager arranges for a subordinate to participate in a meeting at a hotel, where sexual overtures first take place, perhaps the WS will feel that they were place in position where their job could be affected.


----------



## LongWalk

Iver said:


> RS,
> 
> Have you considered making her submit to a Polygraph? This is to see if she hooked up with the OM after DD1.


She did. This was admitted later on. But the number of times might be more.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> *Road Scholar*
> Above all we both realize it is a choice to stay and a choice to leave. We are both choosing to stay and work on this together. It's painful at times. It's rewarding at times. It's by no mean easy but I feel the end goal with us both focused on it, is worth giving it a shot. I have almost thrown in the towel more times than I can count over the past ~9 months, but something has kept me fighting for us. Partly her efforts, partly mine, and if you will all indulge I think partly the grace of GOD.
> 
> I hope all on this site find happiness, inner peace and love as we all deserve but sometimes you have to fight for what you want too
> 
> I think mature women with their values and self esteem in tact appreciate what they have. Others look at what they don't have and blame their partner for their unhappiness. Happiness comes from within I'm convinced.
> 
> I guess I don't want to give up on her when she is trying even if imperfectly. I feel she does love me but I do struggle with how she was able to treat me that way.





*She treated you that way because she is a weak woman and put her selfishness above all else*. You say that she is truly remorseful and is trying to make things up the best that she can. I have no reason to doubt you and I think that is a very good start on her part.


I would suggest a few actions for you to consider.


*1	Have a legal paper executed that separated all your assets for now and the future.


2	Get another legal agreement that stipulates the custody and visitation rights of both parents.*

Trust has been broken and consequences and time bring out truth.

Your big issue of your damaged emotions and your wanting to understand is going to take more time. I am not talking months I am talking years. With the assets and custody of children issues settled then you can wait and let the test of time and actions answer your questions much more convincingly.


The plan above will do several things.* The first is you will see how committed she is to making things much better because she will have to show actions rather than words, tears, and promises*. With the words-tears-promises method, if she does an affair again, you are at a great disadvantage. If she shows you with actions of legal documents for assets and custody then you know she is serious.


Secondly, you will have years to get much more proof as to what is really true and what the motive of her remorse really is. Right now you are unsure. *Anyone can be remorseful for one year but if it is real and deep it will last decades.*

You both will have two legal issues settled; assets and custody, so then what you have left to keep the relationship together is real love. A love that has been tested by time and actions.


*The method that I am suggesting is one that has only real love as a test to see if it will hold you two together. That is what you want most is it not?*

If she really is remorseful and is truly going to show you with actions for years that she is going to be a good and loyal wife then you will have a much better relationship than now and that seems to be what you both want. Right?


Of course I know you know about two other methods; divorce and the second is you can just trust her to be a loyal and good wife.

So I see at least three options for you:
1	The method that I described above
2	Divorce
3	Trust her


*For me actions always speak louder than words and time is a great revealer of truth!*


----------



## LongWalk

4. HappyMan's trial separation
5. Return to excavation by demanding the timeline
6. Continue to work on self and rise up, lifting her along (Bagdon style)
7. Limp along like Mr and Mrs Mathias, struggling with the long term psychological effects
8. Divorce but live together (Emptyshelldad)
9. Request open marriage (not RS's style)
10. Revenge affair (also not RS)


----------



## illwill

Its good she is trying, but you must analyze why she is trying now, based on what she did you then.

It is almost impossible to fix this, with your self respect, if you know you are plan b. And she is there out of fear and a lack of options.


----------



## LongWalk

While I was planting potatoes today – got a blister from the shovel – I thought about RS's situation and perhaps gained a bit of new insight. Relatively few of the key decisions are made rapidly in an affair drama. RS's wife probably thought about having an affair as OM began to court her. But this was a slow process. The actual move to accept his first kiss was moment separate from the decision to consider or encourage OM.

"Now it's happening!" must have rushed through her head and there was still a chance to stop it and say no. The decision to allow this hands to wander (or hers) was another high speed judgment. Stripping and penetration were all moments in which she had fleeting thoughts of resistance. After the affair began to roll, the decisions to keep it going were carefully considered.

After Dday1 there was a need to make a rapid decision to stop RS from divorcing her. She impulsively assured him that she would end the affair. Whether or not she ever intended to respect this promise is a mystery, but the moment that she set up a new meeting with OM, the moment she accepted him physically, those again were rapid moves determined on the go.

To this point RS had made very few decisions beyond resolving to investigate his wife, based on the signals she sent out. His decision to reconcile was probably rapid and ill considered.

His wife then made a series of considered decisions to keep the affair going by taking it deeper underground. She also concluded that she could remain true to OM by cutting RS off sexually. This decision was an instinctive impulse (not feeling it) the first time that RS attempted to initiate after Dday 1 but it then became a considered policy. RS's considered policy in response was to be nice.

For a 5 months there were no changes, until at last fed up, RS out of the blue had the courage to demand a look at his WW's telephone. In a flash she denied him access and thus confirmed that the affair was still on.

After Dday 2 RS determined his mind quickly. Divorce. But he immediately (and impulsively) left open a crack in the door to reconcile.

We could go on and consider other moves by both spouses, but what is noteworthy is that of all the decision making in this drama RS has been the party who has made fewer course changing moves. Most of the power has been in the hands of his wife.

This is one of the difficulties of reconciliation - the imbalance of power. And lopsidedness has continued because RS has made his decisions with relatively little information about what the affair entailed.

If RS had a timeline or spontaneous confession of what went on sexually and emotionally on his wife's side, RS might be making different choices. His wife has never trusted him with that knowledge. She is in essence making the decision to fight for them to stay together based on her wisdom and understanding of his character.

This is exactly where MrsMathias is, for she believes her husband's best interests lie in staying with her.

Herein lies the contradiction. If she loves him for who he is – whatever that means – why doesn't she trust him to take the bad details about her infidelity and weigh them over in his mind to resolve his heart? In this sense RS is not an equal partner in the salvage operation of his marriage.

The separation suggested by HappyMan would not give RS new knowledge of the affair but it would give him decision making power and reduce the dominance of his wife in the process. Demanding a historical accounting of the affair would also change the situation.

One of the torments of the BS in reconciliation are missing pieces of the puzzle. Did the WS engage in different sex acts with OM that he never has explored? MrMathias learned that the OM was rather rough with wife wife and began to do things (unspecified) that he previously thought inconsiderate.

Did the emotional aspect of OM top all other men in her life? I think every person who reviews a list of all sex partners and lover, more or less automatically ranks them in terms of importance. This list ordinarily never comes up in couple's life as a subject for discussion, unless there is a marital crisis.

RS now has three things upon which his R is based, WW's tears, sex and his gut feelings. No, perhaps four. He has his faith.

Is ignorance bliss? Can a many lead his wife back into a more profound love merely through self confidence and personal integrity? I think it is possible but clearly this creates fault lines upon which everything may crumble.

It's too bad there aren't more women offering insight, besides Turnera of course.


----------



## bandit.45

LongWalk said:


> While I was planting potatoes today – got a blister from the shovel – I thought about RS's situation and perhaps gained a bit of new insight. Relatively few of the key decisions are made rapidly in an affair drama. RS's wife probably thought about having an affair as OM began to court her. But this was a slow process. The actual move to accept his first kiss was moment separate from the decision to consider or encourage OM.
> 
> "Now it's happening!" must have rushed through her head and there was still a chance to stop it and say no. The decision to allow this hands to wander (or hers) was another high speed judgment. Stripping and penetration were all moments in which she had fleeting thoughts of resistance. After the affair began to roll, the decisions to keep it going were carefully considered.
> 
> After Dday1 there was a need to make a rapid decision to stop RS from divorcing her. She impulsively assured him that she would end the affair. Whether or not she ever intended to respect this promise is a mystery, but the moment that she set up a new meeting with OM, the moment she accepted him physically, those again were rapid moves determined on the go.
> 
> To this point RS had made very few decisions beyond resolving to investigate his wife, based on the signals she sent out. His decision to reconcile was probably rapid and ill considered.
> 
> His wife then made a series of considered decisions to keep the affair going by taking it deeper underground. She also concluded that she could remain true to OM by cutting RS off sexually. This decision was an instinctive impulse (not feeling it) the first time that RS attempted to initiate after Dday 1 but it then became a considered policy. RS's considered policy in response was to be nice.
> 
> For a 5 months there were no changes, until RS out of the blue had the courage to demand a look at his WW's telephone. In a flash she denied him access and thus confirmed that the affair was still on.
> 
> After Dday 2 RS determined his mind quickly. Divorce. But he immediately (and impulsively) left open a crack in the door to reconcile.
> 
> We could go on and consider other moves by both spouses, but what is noteworthy is that of all the decision making in this drama RS has been the party who has made fewer course changing moves. Most of the power has been in the hands of his wife.
> 
> This is one of the difficulties of reconciliation - the imbalance of power. And lopsidedness has continued because RS has made his decisions with relatively little information about what the affair entailed.
> 
> If RS had a timeline or spontaneous confession of what went on sexually and emotionally on his wife's side, RS might be making different choices. His wife has never trusted him with that knowledge. She is in essence making the decision to fight for them to stay together based on her wisdom and understanding of his character.
> 
> Herein lies the contradiction. If she loves him for who he is – whatever that means – why doesn't she trust him to take the bad details about her infidelity and weight them over in his mind to resolve his heart? In this sense RS is not an equal partner in the salvage operation of his marriage.
> 
> The separation suggested by HappyMan would not give RS new knowledge of the affair but it would give him decision making power and reduce the dominance of his wife in the process. Demanding a historical accounting of the affair would also change the situation.
> 
> One of the torments of the BS in reconciliation are missing pieces of the puzzle. Did the WS engage in different sex acts than with him? Did the emotional aspect of OM top all other men in her life? I think every person who reviews a list of all sex partners and lover, more or less automatically ranks them in terms of importance. This list ordinarily never comes up in couple's life as a subject for discussion, unless there is a marital crisis.
> 
> RS now has three things upon which his R is based, WW's tears, sex and his gut feelings. No, perhaps four. He has his faith.
> 
> Is ignorance bliss?


Good analysis. Brilliant actually. Too bad RS won't absorb it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LongWalk

I am not sure about that.

Another example of spontaneous decision making: his wife initiates sex and he rejects her. That is a bit passive aggressive, but he is aware of this as a weakness. What is more likely in other areas of their lives, decisions about raising their children, vacations, purchasing decisions, etc. RS is will simply say "no" to something that is essentially a matter of taste or opinion. Usually men give in to their wives in many of these matters. However, for RS, he may just unilaterally become the executive on the authority that he just won't care about her opinion or feeling. 

In this sort of new dynamic he will gauge her reaction. Will she become more loving and affectionate or bear a grudge? That sort of unrelated dynamic may reveal how they feel about each other. And at this point RS can simply inwardly flip over and say to himself, "I am tired of this woman." The love that he has nursed for her though this trauma can suddenly be fatally smashed. 

In other words, when the WS refuses unconditional remorse, they lose leverage in the relationship. Refusing sex now is no longer an option for RS's wife. If she is not feeling it, she has to suck it up and find passion. If their sex life is unsatisfying – and RS has not been 100% pleased since Dday 2 – then their marriage could go belly up.

What distinguishes RS from the average guy is that he does not like to act in anger. This is both a strength and weakness. I would say that some apparently nice guys have limits after which they don't take shxt. RS is one of them.


----------



## jld

Well, LW, the more I read about infidelity, the more my ideas are challenged. 

When I think of a WW, I think of someone who lost her head for a few minutes and then is utterly and completely remorseful and transparent, and crawls back to her husband, begging forgiveness but knowing she deserves to be thrown out. In my ideal, he demands transparency and accountability for the rest of her life . . . but looks at what he may have contributed, too. 

Many men take their wives for granted, LW. Not saying RS is like that at all. But many men are, and a neglected wife might fall easily to someone who pays her a little attention. It still is not right, but I can see it happening. We humans are often weak, sadly.

I don't think there should have been two D-days. I think there probably should be automatic divorce in the case of an affair. The couple can decide to get back together, but there must be some kind of consequence that makes both take a hard look at why the fidelity promised in marriage failed.


----------



## Just Joe

I find the denial of sex combined with the 5-10 hookups with the other man for 5 months after the first d-day until the second d-day particularly grievous.

How big a factor are the kids?


----------



## jld

Just Joe said:


> How big a factor are the kids?


Probably a huge one.


----------



## Suspecting2014

It seems like you get the full R.


----------



## LongWalk

Originally Posted by LongWalk 
One recurring topic infidelity threads in which the wife cheats is that she often loses sexual desire for her husband. The notable exception is the cheater who has a heightened sex drive once the affair is underway.

JustJoe replied:



> After Dday how often to WW who face undesired divorce feel new and genuine sexual passion for the betrayed husband?
> From my personal experience pre-marriage, whenever one partner is dumping the other, the dumpee usually feels very intense desire for the dumper. That is, as long as the dumpee wasn't "done" with the relationship. I noticed this both with myself and friends of mine.
> 
> In an affair situation, it usually is the betrayed who has the "being dumped" feeling, which I think accounts for some of the desperate measures they take, and also how strongly in love and attracted they feel about their betrayers. My observation is that this is human nature, maybe some psychology major out there will confirm or deny that there is something known about this.
> 
> Anyway, I think when the betrayed finally decides to divorce and dump the cheater, the cheater will feel that same strong *sexual desire and "in love" feeling but IF, and ONLY IF,* the betrayer truly fears losing the relationship and truly didn't want to lose the relationship. I don't believe it will be the case if the cheater was looking to exit the relationship and doesn't really care if it ends.
> 
> *I was looking at Road Scholar's thread, and I think this MIGHT have happened with his wife. I think he says, that she says, it was like a switch was flipped when she realized she was losing him, that she never intended to leave him.*
> 
> We can uncover a lot of facts and evidence about the affairs, *the one thing we can't get at is the private thoughts inside the cheater's head.*


----------



## clipclop2

It isn't a heightened sex drive. It is an anxiety that they use sex to address. I would hazard to say that it is using sex to address insecurity. Sex can be about power at the very same time it is about being insecure. 

I am insecure so I want reassurance. I use sex to get reassurance. Being reassured through sex reminds me I have power. Depending on my mood I may just want to exert power. If I'm getting guilty I may want reassurance. 

I think certain personality types may be more likely to bounce between the two and some may not even realize what they are doing and be genuinely confused.

Then there are those who are calculated and cruel. They are looking to maximize benefit also known as cake eating.


----------



## LongWalk

In other words a whole gamut of meaning exists in post Dday reconciliation sex. Can it include a healthy desire for intimacy? Does it metamorphosis into something positive?


----------



## turnera

I think it could be that some women are raised to be repressed when it comes to sex and it takes a decade or two to realize you can do it and it not be the evil thing your parents told you it was to keep you from getting pregnant at 16, and once they get to the point of doing it with more than just their husband, the feel freer to explore it more, just as the men have been doing all along. I know lots of women in this boat.


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Re: No sex after her affair...*



turnera said:


> I think it could be that some women are raised to be repressed when it comes to sex and it takes a decade or two to realize you can do it and it not be the evil thing your parents told you it was to keep you from getting pregnant at 16, and once they get to the point of doing it with more than just their husband, the feel freer to explore it more, just as the men have been doing all along. I know lots of women in this boat.


This is spot on. My wife still wrestles with this.


----------



## treyvion

LongWalk said:


> Originally Posted by LongWalk
> One recurring topic infidelity threads in which the wife cheats is that she often loses sexual desire for her husband. The notable exception is the cheater who has a heightened sex drive once the affair is underway.
> 
> JustJoe replied:


Yes. Men and women do have some different psyshological responses in these situations. I found it was quite normal for a wife to see her husband in a diminished light because SHE cheated. Actually her rationalization hamster may come up with some logical conclusions why she is right and the husband is wrong. Whereas men usually know they are pulling the wool over her eyes and accept they are doing this.


----------



## Thor

Some women get off on having sex with their stupid unsuspecting husband after having had sex with their POSOM. It's a power trip, an ego boost, an act of aggression, and/or the supreme degradation and humiliation of their husband.


----------



## treyvion

Thor said:


> Some women get off on having sex with their stupid unsuspecting husband after having had sex with their POSOM. It's a power trip, an ego boost, an act of aggression, and/or the supreme degradation and humiliation of their husband.


Well of course. If they do do it, it is carefully orchestrated to raise her god level.

But men do it too. Cheat on their wife, act like they are the only one in the world for the wife and bone her too because "he can".

Men usually end up putting the OW on a pedastal and over time the wifey won't be getting sex and good treatment from him.

Women on the other hand... They will be downright mean and torturous to the betrayed husband.


----------



## LongWalk

Obviously from an evolutionary point of view women had to be more devious since they could not win physical conflicts.


----------



## treyvion

LongWalk said:


> Obviously from an evolutionary point of view women had to be more devious since they could not win physical conflicts.


They are very efficient VIPERS when they choose to be like that.


----------



## bandit.45

treyvion said:


> They are very efficient VIPERS when they choose to be like that.


"Vipers"...

Yeah I could name a few women here on TAM who fit that description.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Road Scholar

Just Joe said:


> I find the denial of sex combined with the 5-10 hookups with the other man for 5 months after the first d-day until the second d-day particularly grievous.
> 
> How big a factor are the kids?


This is in fact the biggest thing I struggle with I think. I mean there is a lot I struggle with really, but to be caught in an affair and to be offered a chance at redemption, reconciliation, and a chance to save the family, etc. and to consciously decide to go back to him instead of me is very disturbing to me. 1) the hurt and pain she caused me during the initial affair was clear. I was distraught and unable to function really for some time, panic attacks, couldn't focus, despair, all the sh*t. Working out probably saved me. Had thoughts of just wanting to die. To be taken, lifted out of my body, wanted God to just take me. That did not matter. Only her wants and desires mattered. Compartmentalization at it's finest. "I didn't mean to hurt you..." 2) the shock and reality of possibly losing what we know as our family did not wake her up from the fog either. She was in love, or thought she was. Thought this other married guy - 10 years older than her was her soulmate though she never used those words. It's amazing that she was really able to completely repaint me, who I was, and our entire history together to make it all fit in her head. It was on me that this was happening not her. I was the reason for her unhappiness, not the baggage she has been carrying around, not what she focused on during our lifetime together. It was me, all me.

At this point, it really does make me question her love for me and our family above all else. Her selfishness took over and she put herself above all - me, kids, etc. 

Yes, the kids are a huge factor. I didn't believe in divorce, but I know I am justified if that is what I opt for. If I can be strong for them and we can work through this horrible sh*t together and be happy, I am willing to try. 

But at what point does this memory fade to black? Or does it always keep coming back and dragging me down as long as I'm still with her?


----------



## farsidejunky

I can't tell you a definitive timeline. Think months to years. But I can promise you they will never go away as long as your WW continues to stonewall you from the basic information and timeline. 

She is preventing your healing.

And you are allowing it.


----------



## GusPolinski

Road Scholar said:


> But at what point does this memory fade to black? Or does it always keep coming back and dragging me down as long as I'm still with her?


Probably so, at least to some degree. However, this may very well mean that you feel -- if even on a subconscious level -- that there's something that she still isn't showing you. Understanding and/or true remorse, perhaps?


----------



## turnera

A long time ago, a coworker, around 25 years old, was a sweet sweet girl, with a husband. She went to a church counselor, who 'helped' her see her real self and realize that she deserved to be happy, no matter what. She turned into....I don't know what. But she ended up divorced, quit her job, it was a whole clusterfluck. It only now occurs to me that she probably met another guy.


----------



## tom67

Road
Set a time down the road say 6 months or whatever you are comfortable with.
Reassess the m then.
This process of forgiving and moving on can take 2 to 5 years.


----------



## tom67

Read Razgor's thread.
You two could probably help each other.


----------



## tom67

turnera said:


> A long time ago, a coworker, around 25 years old, was a sweet sweet girl, with a husband. She went to a church counselor, who 'helped' her see her real self and realize that she deserved to be happy, no matter what. She turned into....I don't know what. But she ended up divorced, quit her job, it was a whole clusterfluck. It only now occurs to me that she probably met another guy.


Bet it was the "counselor"


----------



## Just Joe

Road Scholar said:


> This is in fact the biggest thing I struggle with I think. I mean there is a lot I struggle with really, but to be caught in an affair and to be offered a chance at redemption, reconciliation, and a chance to save the family, etc. and to consciously decide to go back to him instead of me is very disturbing to me. 1) the hurt and pain she caused me during the initial affair was clear. I was distraught and unable to function really for some time, panic attacks, couldn't focus, despair, all the sh*t. Working out probably saved me. Had thoughts of just wanting to die. To be taken, lifted out of my body, wanted God to just take me. That did not matter. Only her wants and desires mattered. Compartmentalization at it's finest. "I didn't mean to hurt you..." 2) the shock and reality of possibly losing what we know as our family did not wake her up from the fog either. She was in love, or thought she was. Thought this other married guy - 10 years older than her was her soulmate though she never used those words. It's amazing that she was really able to completely repaint me, who I was, and our entire history together to make it all fit in her head. It was on me that this was happening not her. I was the reason for her unhappiness, not the baggage she has been carrying around, not what she focused on during our lifetime together. It was me, all me.
> 
> At this point, it really does make me question her love for me and our family above all else. Her selfishness took over and she put herself above all - me, kids, etc.
> 
> Yes, the kids are a huge factor. I didn't believe in divorce, but I know I am justified if that is what I opt for. If I can be strong for them and we can work through this horrible sh*t together and be happy, I am willing to try.
> 
> But at what point does this memory fade to black? Or does it always keep coming back and dragging me down as long as I'm still with her?


I'm sorry if what I posted triggered you. I have my own sad story, and I have my own triggers.

You will be OK. You are doing the right thing for your kids, as long as your wife is all in now, and stays all in, I think you should continue on the path you're on.

I have a number of ways of looking at it to make me feel better. One, I look at my kids, and I think there is nothing I would not do for their happiness. Nothing. Two, I think of guys I know, some have been in accidents, been disabled, paralyzed, some have died. Bad things happen to people. People do the best they can with the hand they've been dealt and move forward. Our wives' affairs happened to you and me, we have wives who have for a period of time cheated on us, treated us poorly, but we have our health, we have great families, great kids, we are doing well financially, and we have wives who have recommitted to us. It could be worse. We're pretty damn lucky if you think about it. Three, whenever I start to think too negatively about my wife's past actions that have hurt me, I try to focus on my wife as a complete human being. I look at her baby pictures, I look at pictures of her growing up, celebrating with her family, her graduation photos, our wedding photos. I think of things she has done for me in the past that were unselfish, I think of things she does for me now, and I ask myself can I accept her weakness. She has a lot of good points, people all love my wife, everyone she meets likes her, she really is a good person. She has made bad choices and made mistakes.

I recommitted to my wife, I am staying married, I am not in limbo and have not been for some time. Sure, some things still bother me and always will, but no matter what, those things will not cause me to rethink staying with my wife. Now if she cheats again, that's a different story.

There is no time machine. You can deal with it and move forward, or you can dwell on it. When I was at your stage, I was not yet recommitted. I was still in limbo, still living day-to-day, still struggling. It was probably a year and a half before I started to feel that she had gone long enough without slipping up, that I didn't think it was fake, that I thought I could recommit.

You are still relatively close to the day of discovery. I see your thread started in September 2013 and you still didn't know the affair still was going on. So you're not even a year out.

My advice is to just be happy day to day, don't dwell on this stuff that you've already spent a lot of time thinking about, it's not going to change no matter how much you think about it. Let your wife's actions guide your healing, if she isn't up to it, you can back out when she shows that to you. If she continues to do what you need, then you will start to get over it, you will feel better. Don't be too hard on yourself, you are a good man trying to do the right thing. All you can do is to do your best as you see fit, no one can criticize you for that.


----------



## MattMatt

turnera said:


> A long time ago, a coworker, around 25 years old, was a sweet sweet girl, with a husband. She went to a church counselor, who 'helped' her see her real self and realize that she deserved to be happy, no matter what. She turned into....I don't know what. But she ended up divorced, quit her job, it was a whole clusterfluck. It only now occurs to me that she probably met another guy.


I wonder exactly how "hands on" the counsellor was?


----------



## OptimisticPessimist

Call me cynical, but the longer im around here, the more I think the very first step in any situation regarding infidelity is to drop D papers right in front of the WS. No expressions of feeling, no timeline, no nothing- papers. Come right out full swing with an action that essentially says one will NOT be a doormat, that there is a price, and that one will be just fine without the cheater.

We talk about marriage counseling, no contact letters, demanding full disclosure, etc and all of these things are good (necessary even). But ultimately, human beings only seem to respond to calamity. Throughout history warning signs have existed regarding impending disaster, and it seems people only marginally apply themselves to any solution. Only when the world is crumbling around them do they wake up and truly consider a radical change in their lifestyle (because they FEEL the problem).

Feelings are how we understand our relationship to our environment. If you see someone trying to steal your car, you FEEL emotions that motivate you to stop the theft by personal action or by calling out to others. Human beings do not respond to logical premonitions of hypothetical catastrophe precisely because they arent subjected to the punishment of FEELING- feeling is not born from logic- logic is only a tool we use to create, sustain or destroy the basis for a feeling (a tool to modify our social environment in a way that makes it better, sustains it, or destroys it).

Divorce (like marriage) is a tool. Dropping D papers straight away accomplishes two things. First, it makes the WS understand the state of their environment through feeling. Second, it provides a logical response (on behalf of the BS) for dealing with the feeling.

It brings catastrophe to the WS's doorstep. If they are so detached that divorce doesnt make them FEEL anything, the marriage is lost anyways. If they do feel, they realize calamity is at their doorstep and that the usual tricks of gaslighting, rugsweeping, blameshifting, etc is what got them here.

Only when they have a desire to move forward is moving forward possible. Maintaining the affair after a D day? Response: I would drop D papers even IF you are in R now just to remove any doubt she might have as to whether or not you mean business. 

OP, I second the above where someone commented your problems starting after becoming a "good husband". Buying flowers, making money, cleaning and cooking is NOT the way you make a woman want you. You may choose to do those things time to time or even 50/50, but it in and of itself does not inspire attraction.

A woman loves a man when he puts FIRE between her legs AND when he demonstrates care- you may have done the latter, but the former is equally important. A saying I like: "there are two kinds of sex in a relationship- fvcking and making love- and you need both for the relationship to work". Beyond that, you must demonstrate confidence. You must let bravado ooze from your demeanor. You need to mix humor with ****iness- have the cohones to crack a supremely arrogant statement with a crooked smile that lets her know you are confident enough to say bold things without taking yourself too seriously. (**EDIT** A crooked smile that lets her know its a joke..)

You must demonstrate mastery over the world around you. THAT is what will fix this (if it is fixable at this point). Do not mope or pout about life- REVEL in it and give her reason to FEEL. If you can do this, she will be forever addicted to you.

Finally, a "feeling" is nothing more than a lingual label describing various neurochemical states of the mind (dopamine levels, serotonin, oxytocin, glutamate, noepinephrine, etc). Every action you take affects the neurochemical state of her mind. You must constantly strive to show her that YOU can keep her secreting the good stuff she wants through actions you take. Good luck.


----------



## just got it 55

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Outstanding post OP

55


----------



## turnera

OptimisticPessimist said:


> Call me cynical, but the longer im around here, the more I think the very first step in any situation regarding infidelity is to drop D papers right in front of the WS. No expressions of feeling, no timeline, no nothing- papers.


That's MY method.


----------



## MEM2020

Road,
Would you like a gentle suggestion?




Road Scholar said:


> This is in fact the biggest thing I struggle with I think. I mean there is a lot I struggle with really, but to be caught in an affair and to be offered a chance at redemption, reconciliation, and a chance to save the family, etc. and to consciously decide to go back to him instead of me is very disturbing to me. 1) the hurt and pain she caused me during the initial affair was clear. I was distraught and unable to function really for some time, panic attacks, couldn't focus, despair, all the sh*t. Working out probably saved me. Had thoughts of just wanting to die. To be taken, lifted out of my body, wanted God to just take me. That did not matter. Only her wants and desires mattered. Compartmentalization at it's finest. "I didn't mean to hurt you..." 2) the shock and reality of possibly losing what we know as our family did not wake her up from the fog either. She was in love, or thought she was. Thought this other married guy - 10 years older than her was her soulmate though she never used those words. It's amazing that she was really able to completely repaint me, who I was, and our entire history together to make it all fit in her head. It was on me that this was happening not her. I was the reason for her unhappiness, not the baggage she has been carrying around, not what she focused on during our lifetime together. It was me, all me.
> 
> At this point, it really does make me question her love for me and our family above all else. Her selfishness took over and she put herself above all - me, kids, etc.
> 
> Yes, the kids are a huge factor. I didn't believe in divorce, but I know I am justified if that is what I opt for. If I can be strong for them and we can work through this horrible sh*t together and be happy, I am willing to try.
> 
> But at what point does this memory fade to black? Or does it always keep coming back and dragging me down as long as I'm still with her?


----------



## jld

turnera said:


> That's MY method.


Has your husband ever cheated on you, turnera? Did you put papers in front of him?


----------



## ThePheonix

Road Scholar said:


> At this point, it really does make me question her love for me and our family above all else. Her selfishness took over and she put herself above all - me, kids, etc.


Over the years I've run into numerous guys like you my man. You spend a plethora of time doing an repeated autopsy on why your old lady behaves as she did/does. All of you say basically the same thing and end up still scratching your head over how she could throw it all away, how selfish she is, the kids, your history together, etc., etc.
Here's the thing Dawg. Her version of your marriage and history doesn't jib with yours. When a woman cheats, she's lost interest in you or at least want somebody in their life that offers something other than what they have. I don't care what anybody says. When a post comes up where a woman cheated, pay particular attention to what she says after she states, "I love my husband" and you'll see what I mean. 
In your case, she lost interest in you. When a woman has a romantic interest in you, they want to have sex with you. 
When a woman loses interest in you, its exactly what it is. She's lost interest and doesn't give a rats azz about your history together, how much you love her, your family unit, etc. She not selfish. I expect she still focuses on the needs of the kids and pays attention to the rest of the family. Face it Dawg, the only one not being doted over is you. She just doesn't care anymore about pleasing you. Time to quit crying in your beer, ask yourself what she has that you can't live without and can be easily replaced and move on.


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## turnera

jld said:


> Has your husband ever cheated on you, turnera? Did you put papers in front of him?


No, and I didn't have to. I told him when we married that if he ever cheated, he'd never see me OR any kids ever again. He told me recently, when I asked him why he never cheated (and boy has he had opportunities), that he still remembers me telling him that and he was never willing to test it.

I did, however, threaten divorce a couple years ago due to his other issues that he's refused to address over the years; he's changed nearly 180 degrees since then. Wish I'd done it sooner.


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## Chaparral

farsidejunky said:


> I can't tell you a definitive timeline. Think months to years. But I can promise you they will never go away as long as your WW continues to stonewall you from the basic information and timeline.
> 
> She is preventing your healing.
> 
> And you are allowing it.


How long it takes depends on each individual. I want to say though that you never forget but it does quit hurting. In retrospect, for me it was a good thing..........as in enlightening. I have and will never give someone compete trust again. That has served me well now for decades.

I consider myself well rounded, happy and successful too. I don't dwell on it but it has kept me from overlooking the bad in people all my adult life. It has made me realistic.

Like the statisticians say, 75% of people would cheat if they knew they would get away with it. About 30-35% of people do cheat. These numbers are estimated to be between 20% and over 50% btw, depending on who does the study.

Unfortunately, you have learned this lesson the hard way. Turn it into an asset rather than a liability. In my case I decided I could not make my fiancé happy and left her after two years. We didn't have kids and as it turns out she could not have kids. I on the other hand raised the valedictorian of her class and a son that was equally smart and a sports all star.

Read MMSLP, somewhere along the line your wife lost respect for you or she has a personality disorder. Both should be seriously considered.


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## LongWalk

RS and his wife are always on trial. He takes long breaks from TAM because it pains him to read here. However, he returns because there are people who care about him. He needs to decide if he needs more information about the affair. He may wish for more remorse from his wife, but he may also fear that he may break her by continuously bathing her in anger and resentment. 

In any case, their marriage maybe better in some ways but worse in others. 

RS has his gut feeling that has never betrayed him. He asks the existential questions:

Who am I? (What indignity will I tolerate?)

Who am I? (What would I not do for my children?)

Who am I? (Can I live with an imperfect person and be better for it?)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## staystrong

ThePheonix said:


> Over the years I've run into numerous guys like you my man. You spend a plethora of time doing an repeated autopsy on why your old lady behaves as she did/does. All of you say basically the same thing and end up still scratching your head over how she could throw it all away, how selfish she is, the kids, your history together, etc., etc.
> Here's the thing Dawg. Her version of your marriage and history doesn't jib with yours. When a woman cheats, she's lost interest in you or at least want somebody in their life that offers something other than what they have. I don't care what anybody says. When a post comes up where a woman cheated, pay particular attention to what she says after she states, "I love my husband" and you'll see what I mean.
> In your case, she lost interest in you. When a woman has a romantic interest in you, they want to have sex with you.
> When a woman loses interest in you, its exactly what it is. She's lost interest and doesn't give a rats azz about your history together, how much you love her, your family unit, etc. She not selfish. I expect she still focuses on the needs of the kids and pays attention to the rest of the family. Face it Dawg, the only one not being doted over is you. She just doesn't care anymore about pleasing you. Time to quit crying in your beer, ask yourself what she has that you can't live without and can be easily replaced and move on.


It's the definition of selfish, Phoenix. 

And weak. 

Maybe she was fine with hubby before, but got drawn in by something shiny and new. H can't compete with a mystery OM.. everyone knows that. It's usually her failing, not the H's. Bill, chores, routine.. that's part of marriage. Most people are blindsided because they got comfortable. 

End result. H's pride killed, mom often ashamed, kids in tears, broken homes. All because she got the tingles...


----------



## warlock07

> RS and his wife are always on trial. He takes long breaks from TAM because it pains him to read here.


Not sure he is here for venting or actual advice. He posts something then goes away for a few weeks, then posts the same 'woe is me' thing again without trying anything different...

R or D, he has to do something different than keep indulging in self pity. Something has to change. The thread will run a few more pages without him responding, then he will bump it again in a few weeks. Rinse, repeat!!


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## barbados

warlock07 said:


> Not sure he is here for venting or actual advice. He posts something then goes away for a few weeks, then posts the same 'woe is me' thing again without trying anything different...
> 
> R or D, he has to do something different than keep indulging in self pity. Something has to change. The thread will run a few more pages without him responding, then he will bump it again in a few weeks. Rinse, repeat!!


:iagree:

He's in a total limbo place. Worse place to be. He won'r D and she won't give him everything he needs for a true R. Still no timeline, wants to rugsweep, etc. Very sad.


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## ThePheonix

staystrong said:


> It's the definition of selfish, Phoenix.


I'm saying that if she's concerned about the needs or feelings of other people in life, but she's not concerned about him, that doesn't rise to the level of "selfish". She simply replaced him and wants nothing to do with him. If they were simply engaged and one decided, "hey this is not for me" it wouldn't make them selfish. Moreover, a spouse can ditch the other, and although may be a life altering event, does not necessarily destroy the entire family. The rejected spouse is just out and life goes on. (in some cases the family and both spouses are better off)


----------



## CASE_Sensitive

Lots of people here have done all the "right" things and still in limbo.


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## ThePheonix

Life ain't Burger King. You don't always get it your way.


----------



## LongWalk

Some cheaters have absolutely lost attraction for their BS. RS's wife would not have sex with him at all during the false reconciliation. This changed dramatically with Dday 2. If denying sex to him was an honest reflection of her state of mind, and here we are referring to the primitive aspects of desire, then one must ask if the change was driven by compulsion, i.e., fear of change in life, or a genuine renewal of attraction.

Perhaps it was some combination. Can women psych themselves back into love better than men?

Does the return of eros require pain on the part of the WS? If so, how much?

If the WW is rising to meet BS in climax, what more can there be in sex? Is the WS's emotional vulnerability fake?

If indifference creeps into the BS's heart, what prevents it from destroying the love that survived the affair?


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## treyvion

LongWalk said:


> Some cheaters have absolutely lost attraction for their BS. RS's wife would not have sex with him at all during the false reconciliation. This changed dramatically with Dday 2. If denying sex to him was an honest reflection of her state of mind, and here we are referring to the primitive aspects of desire, then one must ask if the change was driven by compulsion, i.e., fear of change in life, or a genuine renewal of attraction.
> 
> Perhaps it was some combination. Can women psyche themselves back into love better than men?
> 
> Does the return of eros require pain on the part of the WS? If so, how much?
> 
> If the WW is rising to meet BS in climax, what more can there be in sex? Is the WS's emotional vulnerability fake?
> 
> If indifference creeps into the BS's heart, what prevents it from destroying the love that survived the affair?


"primitive aspects of desire"... I like that. And it be wise for a man to have the primive aspevts covered.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ThePheonix

"_Perhaps it was some combination. Can women psyche themselves back into love better than men?

Does the return of eros require pain on the part of the WS? If so, how much?

If the WW is rising to meet BS in climax, what more can there be in sex? Is the WS's emotional vulnerability fake?"_


I don't know LW; you tell me. A paid mistress or a good call girl easily emulates what you're talking about.


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## treyvion

ThePheonix said:


> "_Perhaps it was some combination. Can women psyche themselves back into love better than men?
> 
> Does the return of eros require pain on the part of the WS? If so, how much?
> 
> If the WW is rising to meet BS in climax, what more can there be in sex? Is the WS's emotional vulnerability fake?"_
> 
> 
> I don't know LW; you tell me. A paid mistress or a good call girl easily emulates what you're talking about.



Wow. So a paid mitstress or callgirl wil "easily" rise past the effort a WAS will.... Probably true.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

Emulation of passion is of course not what the BS wants. I think prostitutes can fall in love with certain clients. It must be a strange process. Is a WS is less likely to fall back in love with a BS than a prostitute with a favorite customer?


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## illwill

OptimisticPessimist said:


> Call me cynical, but the longer im around here, the more I think the very first step in any situation regarding infidelity is to drop D papers right in front of the WS. No expressions of feeling, no timeline, no nothing- papers. Come right out full swing with an action that essentially says one will NOT be a doormat, that there is a price, and that one will be just fine without the cheater.
> 
> We talk about marriage counseling, no contact letters, demanding full disclosure, etc and all of these things are good (necessary even). But ultimately, human beings only seem to respond to calamity. Throughout history warning signs have existed regarding impending disaster, and it seems people only marginally apply themselves to any solution. Only when the world is crumbling around them do they wake up and truly consider a radical change in their lifestyle (because they FEEL the problem).
> 
> Feelings are how we understand our relationship to our environment. If you see someone trying to steal your car, you FEEL emotions that motivate you to stop the theft by personal action or by calling out to others. Human beings do not respond to logical premonitions of hypothetical catastrophe precisely because they arent subjected to the punishment of FEELING- feeling is not born from logic- logic is only a tool we use to create, sustain or destroy the basis for a feeling (a tool to modify our social environment in a way that makes it better, sustains it, or destroys it).
> 
> Divorce (like marriage) is a tool. Dropping D papers straight away accomplishes two things. First, it makes the WS understand the state of their environment through feeling. Second, it provides a logical response (on behalf of the BS) for dealing with the feeling.
> 
> It brings catastrophe to the WS's doorstep. If they are so detached that divorce doesnt make them FEEL anything, the marriage is lost anyways. If they do feel, they realize calamity is at their doorstep and that the usual tricks of gaslighting, rugsweeping, blameshifting, etc is what got them here.
> 
> Only when they have a desire to move forward is moving forward possible. Maintaining the affair after a D day? Response: I would drop D papers even IF you are in R now just to remove any doubt she might have as to whether or not you mean business.
> 
> OP, I second the above where someone commented your problems starting after becoming a "good husband". Buying flowers, making money, cleaning and cooking is NOT the way you make a woman want you. You may choose to do those things time to time or even 50/50, but it in and of itself does not inspire attraction.
> 
> A woman loves a man when he puts FIRE between her legs AND when he demonstrates care- you may have done the latter, but the former is equally important. A saying I like: "there are two kinds of sex in a relationship- fvcking and making love- and you need both for the relationship to work". Beyond that, you must demonstrate confidence. You must let bravado ooze from your demeanor. You need to mix humor with ****iness- have the cohones to crack a supremely arrogant statement with a crooked smile that lets her know you are confident enough to say bold things without taking yourself too seriously. (**EDIT** A crooked smile that lets her know its a joke..)
> 
> You must demonstrate mastery over the world around you. THAT is what will fix this (if it is fixable at this point). Do not mope or pout about life- REVEL in it and give her reason to FEEL. If you can do this, she will be forever addicted to you.
> 
> Finally, a "feeling" is nothing more than a lingual label describing various neurochemical states of the mind (dopamine levels, serotonin, oxytocin, glutamate, noepinephrine, etc). Every action you take affects the neurochemical state of her mind. You must constantly strive to show her that YOU can keep her secreting the good stuff she wants through actions you take. Good luck.


The truest thing i have read on here. If all betrayed spouses found the fortitude to simply file, there would be no second ddays or trickle truth. Or bluffing.


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## illwill

ThePheonix said:


> I'm saying that if she's concerned about the needs or feelings of other people in life, but she's not concerned about him, that doesn't rise to the level of "selfish". She simply replaced him and wants nothing to do with him. If they were simply engaged and one decided, "hey this is not for me" it wouldn't make them selfish. Moreover, a spouse can ditch the other, and although may be a life altering event, does not necessarily destroy the entire family. The rejected spouse is just out and life goes on. (in some cases the family and both spouses are better off)


The very fact that they are even WILLING to risk the destruction of their childrens lives, for their own pleasure, not needs, is unequivocally selfish.


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## ThePheonix

LongWalk said:


> Is a WS is less likely to fall back in love with a BS than a prostitute with a favorite customer?


Yep. If a woman has lost romantic interest in you, it will never come back. (well maybe one case in a couple of thousand) Oh, she may love him, but its the old not in love with him. (meaning she doesn't want him touching anything from the neck down)



illwill said:


> The very fact that they are even WILLING to risk the destruction of their childrens lives, for their own pleasure, not needs, is unequivocally selfish.


"Destruction of the childrens' lives" is hyperbole by a BH grasping for straws to save the marriage he lost. Plenty of kids from divorced households do as well or better. In fact, is fairly easy to find situations where the kids would have been better off had the parents busted up.


----------



## turnera

ThePheonix said:


> Yep. If a woman has lost romantic interest in you, it will never come back. (well maybe one case in a couple of thousand) Oh, she may love him, but its the old not in love with him. (meaning she doesn't want him touching anything from the neck down)


Hogwash. If the man is willing to invest in learning how to create a loving relationship, how to be strong, how to keep things fresh, how to treat his wife the way he treated her when they were dating, she CAN fall in love with him again. And vice versa.


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## bfree

*Re: Re: No sex after her affair...*



turnera said:


> Hogwash. If the man is willing to invest in learning how to create a loving relationship, how to be strong, how to keep things fresh, how to treat his wife the way he treated her when they were dating, she CAN fall in love with him again. And vice versa.


Absolutely. I've seen it many times. Athol Kay has built a very successful business on it.


----------



## Cynthia

ThePheonix said:


> Yep. If a woman has lost romantic interest in you, it will never come back. (well maybe one case in a couple of thousand) Oh, she may love him, but its the old not in love with him. (meaning she doesn't want him touching anything from the neck down)


:scratchhead: Romance is more easily rekindled by someone who knows you well and has already had a romantic relationship with you. There is history and many loving memories already, so getting back to that isn't really difficult if a person makes positive emotional connections and treats the other person in a loving, caring manner, which dropping behaviors that cause the other person to disconnect. It's not rocket science.


----------



## ThePheonix

CynthiaDe said:


> :scratchhead: Romance is more easily rekindled by someone who knows you well and has already had a romantic relationship with you.


Sorry CD but not from things I've seen over the year. I've seen a number of men a rekindle their interest but I've seldom seen women do it. When a woman ditches you because they've lost interest, you stay ditched.


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## Wolfman1968

CynthiaDe said:


> :scratchhead: Romance is more easily rekindled by someone who knows you well and has already had a romantic relationship with you. There is history and many loving memories already, so getting back to that isn't really difficult if a person makes positive emotional connections and treats the other person in a loving, caring manner, which dropping behaviors that cause the other person to disconnect. It's not rocket science.


Remember the question was specifically about getting a Wayward Spouse to reconnect.

It sounds like you are blaming the victim here. The BS "caused the WS to disconnect?"

And what if there weren't behaviors that "caused the other person to disconnect." What if the problem is personality defects of the WS?


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## LongWalk

Is human nature a personality defect?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bandit.45

ThePheonix said:


> Sorry CD but not from things I've seen over the year. I've seen a number of men a rekindle their interest but I've seldom seen women do it. When a woman ditches you because they've lost interest, you stay ditched.


Exactly. 

You nailed it.

And that is why RS's reconciliation is doomed to fail. She is stringing him along until the next OM makes his appearance.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ThePheonix

turnera said:


> Hogwash. If the man is willing to invest in learning how to create a loving relationship, how to be strong, how to keep things fresh, how to treat his wife the way he treated her when they were dating, she CAN fall in love with him again. And vice versa.


I'm glad you pointed out how his failure to do this things contributed to her lost romantic interest. Nice to see someone put some accountability on the BH for his wife seeking fulfillment elsewhere.


----------



## Chaparral

Are you following the MAP plan in MARRIED MAN SEX LIFE PRIMER?

Have you printed the WAYWARD SPOUSE INSTRUCTIONS and gone over them step by step with your wife.........together?

*Understanding Your Betrayed Spouse - A quick reference manual for unfaithful partners.

The Sea of Stress is Difficult to Understand.

YOU BETRAYED YOUR PARTNER. NOW COMES THE FALLOUT.

They discovered your adultery. You ended the affair and promised you’ll never cheat again. But the stress from their emotional devastation lingers. And you don’t see much change – at least, not as much positive change as you expected. Many times, any visible changes are for the worse. You observe them bouncing back and forth like a ping-pong ball, moment to moment, from one emotion to the next. They’re unpredictable. There’s no discernable pattern. Their nerves are frayed. They can’t sleep. They can’t eat. Their thoughts are obsessive. Intrusive visions and flashbacks assault them without warning. They cry at the drop of a hat. They feel empty, used up, exhausted. The stress consumes their energy and their life until they feel like there’s nothing left. It’s terrible.

It’s an ordeal for you to witness their tortured, depressed and angry states, and what’s worse; you don’t know what to do. You’re not alone. Unfaithful spouses never dream they’ll get busted, so when confronted with their adultery they’re always caught by surprise; first by their partners’ knowledge, then by their intense agony. Indeed, unfaithful partners never think about what they’ll face “after” until after. The fact is: Though they inflict it, adulterers are unprepared for the onslaught of their spouses’ overwhelming emotional distress. Is this real? Is this permanent?

As you watch them sink lower and lower, wallowing in an emotional abyss, you wonder where the bottom is, when they will hit it, and if they will ever ascend from it and return to “normal.” You ask yourself, “Is this real?” Then you ask, “Will this ever end?”

The simple answers are: Yes, it is real. And, yes, it will end. But recovery takes a long time, often years, and much depends on you. Can you be remorseful, apologetic, loving, patient, empathetic and soothing over an extended period of time? Can you commit to openness and honesty at all times – and forevermore being faithful to your spouse?

Be honest with yourself: If you can’t or don’t want to get over your affair, if you don’t feel shame and remorse, and if you can’t generously provide appropriate support to your spouse, then now is the time to consider ending your marriage and spare your marital partner further pain. (If this is the case, you need not read any further.)

But if you have put the affair permanently behind you, if you feel and can freely express your remorse and shame for your unfaithfulness, and if you can commit to supporting your spouse through their excruciating anguish, then you have an excellent chance of rebuilding from this disaster you’ve wrought to a happy, satisfying, caring and loving marriage. The following is intended to help you help your partner, and in turn yourself, through this horrible time and jumpstart your journey to recovery.

So, take a couple of deep breaths… and let’s start with three foundational facts:

What you’re seeing in your spouse is a normal reaction to a life-changing event.

Your spouse needs to grieve for as long as it takes in order to recover and heal.

You can be a positive influence on their recovery.

Now, go back and reread them several times. Let them really sink in. When you can repeat them without looking, continue.

Your first mission is to learn.

Learning about your partner’s myriad reactions to your betrayal allows you to recognize, understand and properly respond to them as they occur. Doing so will help you get through
this horrible initial stage, which can last a long time.
Below you’ll find a little of what your spouse is probably experiencing. They may shift from one reaction to another, or they could experience multiple reactions concurrently. And don’t be surprised if they return to previous states many times. Where applicable, we’ve added some tips to help you to assist your partner through this. In some cases, however, there may be little for you to do except to simply “be there.”

Most importantly, remember at all times: Your infidelity has traumatized your spouse. Act accordingly.

SECTION 1 - THE WILD PATCHWORK OF EMOTIONS

DISBELIEF: They expect to wake up any minute from this nightmare. It can’t be true. They don’t believe it. This is natural. They trusted you and don’t want to believe you did what you did. It is common for this to occur in the very first moments of discovery. (Note: If some time elapsed between the discovery of your affair and the confrontation, you may have missed this when it happened, but it is also possible for your spouse to return to disbelief.)

SHOCK: They are numb and often seem dazed. Their emotions are frozen. Their senses are dulled. They go through the motions mechanically, robotically, but can’t seem to apply sufficient concentration to their day-to-day lives.

REALITY: “Oh my God. It really happened.” They feel they’re getting worse. Actually, reality has just set in. It’s as if a ton of bricks just fell on them and they’re buried beneath them. They don’t know where to turn, or can’t. Don’t discount the likelihood that they feel shamed by your infidelity. So, they may be reluctant to seek support from friends and family. Be available to them for emotional support and encourage them to talk freely with anyone they choose. Suggest therapy as a means to help them through their trauma, but never accuse them of “being irrational” or “acting crazy.” Be supportive and encouraging. Commend them for seeking help.

CONFUSION: They’re disoriented. They can’t think straight. They become impatient, disorganized and forgetful. More frequently than usual they go to a room to retrieve something, but once they get there they can’t remember what it was. This is very upsetting to them. Bear with them. Be gentle and be helpful. Help them find their misplaced purse or locate their lost keys. Know that they will eventually come out of the fog. Also be aware that their confusion, as with other states listed here, may be set off or magnified by certain “triggers.” (Note: Read more about “triggers” below.)

PHYSICAL SYMPTOMS: They may sleep or eat too little – or too much. They may suffer physical aches and pains, numbness or weakness. They may feel unusually tense and develop headaches, abnormal tics, twitching or shaking. They may feel sick to their stomach and vomit, or their digestive system may react with constipation or diarrhea. Weight loss is common. Usually the symptoms fade gradually. If these symptoms persist, make sure they check with a doctor to rule out other causes. Encourage them to eat well and to exercise – but don’t nag. You might instead take control of their diet by preparing healthy, well balanced meals. If you don’t cook, take them to restaurants where you know they serve nourishing food and, if necessary, order for them. If they’re not exercising, initiate taking long walks together. It’s a good way to ease them into a healthy exercise regimen, which is always a good stress reliever, and will provide opportunity for you to begin constructively re-establishing your “couplehood.”

CRYING: Deep emotions suddenly well up, seeking release as crying, uncontrollable sobbing and even screaming out loud. Allow them their time for tears. They can help. So can you. When they cry, give them your shoulder. Hug them. Help them through it by gently encouraging them, to “get it all out.” Be certain to verbalize your remorse for causing their pain. They need to hear this from you. (Note: Right now, genuine, complete and repeated apologies are the best “general use” tool you have in your repair kit. That is why you’ll see many more references below. Read “Apologize” in Section 2.)

SELF-CONTROL: They control their emotions to fulfill their responsibilities, or to simply rest from the pain. Self-control can shape and give rhythm to their grieving, but be on the lookout for constant and rigid self-control. It can block healing. They need to reduce their emotional pressure to regain equilibrium. Allow them to vent when it happens. Be aware: Too much self-control means they are storing up much anger and will release it powerfully, like floodwaters breaking through a dam. So don’t be alarmed if they suddenly lash out at you, your affair partner, or even themselves. Understand that the release of anger is necessary to heal. Though it may not feel this way to you when it happens, it’s beneficial.

NEED TO KNOW: They will ask lots of questions. Their curiosity may be insatiable or it may be limited. Different people have different needs and tolerances for information, but they need information to process their trauma, move through it, and move past it.

Let them set the agenda. Whenever they ask a question, whatever they ask, answer honestly and sufficiently. Refusing to answer gives the appearance that you’re still keeping them in the dark, that you still have something to hide. Do not hold anything back. If they discover later that you omitted or hid details, or if the facts they discover don’t match the story you tell, they’ll feel betrayed once again. Follow the delivery of each new piece of hurtful information with an apology, and soothe them with another promise that you’ll never again be unfaithful.

WHY: They ask, “Why did you do this?” They may or may not expect an answer, but they ask repeatedly. If they do want an answer, provide it – and answer honestly. Even if the question is rhetorical, be aware that the question itself, rhetorical or not, is a cry of pain. And each time they feel pain, it should be answered with another apology. (I can’t stress enough how important this is.) Be aware: Even if they are not verbalizing this to you, they are still silently asking the question “Why?” over and over and over again.

INJUSTICE: They feel it’s all so unfair. You invited danger, you took the risk, but they suffered injury. They want justice and begin to think like a vigilante. They may harbour a secret desire to do harm to you or your affair partner. They may want to get even by having a “revenge affair.”
Understand that the aftermath of your unfaithfulness is an agony you have thrust upon them. Meanwhile, despite your betrayal and deceit, and the shame you feel, you and your affair partner may retain fond or even loving memories of your affair. One of my patients described her feelings of injustice this way: “I feel like a rape victim watching helplessly as the jury returns a ‘not guilty’ verdict. Then, the assailant looks at me, points his finger at me and laughs all the way out of the courtroom. How can this possibly happen?”

A sad truth of infidelity is: It is unfair. Of course, there is no “justice” that can come from this. Betrayed spouses generally settle into this realization on their own, but they need to know that you understand how this plagues them. (Note: Read “Share your feelings of guilt and shame” in Section 2. It explains the best way to help them through their sense of injustice.)

INADEQUACY: Their self esteem is shattered. They feel belittled, insignificant, and often even unlovable. Just as you would crumple a piece of scrap paper and toss it in the garbage without a second thought, they feel you crushed them, discarded them, and didn’t give them a second thought, either. So, they question their own value. They wonder if you truly love them – or if anyone could. They need to know why you now choose them over your affair partner, even if they don’t ask. Make your case convincingly. Be generous, but be genuine. They’ll know if you aren’t, and false flattery for the purpose of mere appeasement will only hurt them more.

REPEATING: Over and over again, they review the story, thinking the same thoughts. Do not attempt to stop them. Repeating helps them to absorb and process the painful reality. You can help them get through it by answering all their questions truthfully and filling in all the gaps for them. The more they know – the more they can repeat the complete story – the faster they process it, accept it and begin to heal. If the story remains incomplete or significant gaps are filled in later, they may have to start the process all over again.

IDEALIZING: Sometimes they remember only good memories, as if their time with you was perfect. They long to live in the past, before the affair came along and “messed it up.” Assure them that you, too, remember the good times, and want things to be good again. Remind them that you want an even better future, that you are willing to work at it, and, most importantly, that you want your future with them – and not your affair partner.

FRUSTRATION: Their past fulfillments are gone. They haven’t found new ones yet and don’t seem interested in finding any. They feel they’re not coping with grief “right” or they feel they should be healing faster. They don’t understand why the pain returns again and again. They wonder if they will ever recover and feel better. You can help them by verbalizing what they need to hear even if you don’t or can’t fully understand it yourself. Be empathetic and assure them that under the circumstances they’re doing okay. Remember that despite how much you have hurt them, you are still the one they chose as their life partner, for better or for worse. You may still be their closest confidante. As incongruous as it may seem, don’t be surprised if they choose to confide in you over others.

BITTERNESS: Feelings of resentment and hatred toward you and your paramour are to be expected. Don’t be surprised if they redirect much of the anger that’s really meant for you toward your paramour. This is natural. It’s actually a way of protecting their love for you during the early stages. By restricting their anger toward you, they allow it to be time-released, and only in smaller, more manageable amounts. Expect their anger to surface periodically, and give them plenty of time to work through it so they can eventually let go of it. Understand that until they’ve worked through and exhausted their anger, they cannot heal.

WAITING: The initial struggle is waning, but their zest for life has not returned. They are in limbo, they are exhausted and uncertain. Indeed, life seems flat and uninteresting. They are unenthused about socializing, perhaps reluctant, and they are unable to plan activities for themselves. Help them by finding ways to stimulate them. Plan activities for them around things that hold their interest and bring joy back into their life.

EMOTIONS IN CONFLICT: This is one of the most difficult manifestations because there is so much going on at the same time and their feelings do not always synchronize with reality. The most succinct description was provided by the late Shirley Glass, PhD: “One of the ironies of healing from infidelity is that the perpetrator must become the healer. This means that betrayed partners are vulnerable because the person they are most likely to turn to in times of trouble is precisely the source of their danger.” The inherent conflict for a betrayed spouse is obvious, but Dr. Glass also recognized how difficult this balancing act can be for a repentant adulterer: “On the other hand, [unfaithful] partners sometimes find it hard to stay engaged with their spouses when they know they are the source of such intense pain.” The key, of course, is to stay engaged nonetheless. Be supportive and remorseful, and above all… keep talking.

TRIGGERS: Particular dates, places, items and activities can bring back their pain as intensely as ever. It feels like they’re caught in a loop as they relive the trauma. It is emotionally debilitating.

Triggers can cause days and nights of depression, renew anger, and can spark and reignite nightmares, which may make them fear sleeping. Triggers can cause them to question if they will ever again experience life without the anguish. Get rid of all the reminders immediately: Gifts, letters, pictures, cards, emails, clothing… whatever your spouse associates with your affair. Do this with your spouse so they are not left wondering when those triggers may recur. Never cling to anything that bothers your partner. It leaves the impression that your keepsakes and mementos, or any reminders of your affair, are more important to you than they are.

Attend to your partner. Learn what dates, songs, places, etc., are triggers for your partner. Pay attention to your environment: If you hear or see something that you think might be a trigger, assume it is. Each occasion a trigger arises is an appropriate moment for you to communicate a clear and heartfelt message that you’re sorry you acted so selfishly and caused this recurring pain. So again, apologize and let them know how much you love them. The occurrence of a trigger is also a good opportunity to express that you choose them and not your affair partner, which is important for them to hear. If a trigger occurs in public, you can still wrap your arm around your spouse’s waist or shoulder, or simply squeeze their hand, but verbalize your apology as soon as you are alone again.

It is very important for you to understand and remember this… Triggers can remain active for their entire life. Don’t ever think or insist that enough time has passed that they should be “over it” because another sad truth of infidelity is: Your affair will remain a permanent memory for them, subject to involuntary recall at any time – even decades later. They will NEVER be “over it.” They simply learn to deal with it better as they heal, as you earn back their trust, and as you rebuild your relationship – over time.

SECTION 2 - WHAT ELSE CAN YOU DO TO EASE THEIR PAIN & RELIEVE THEIR STRESS?

Make certain you’ve killed the beast: Your affair must be over, in all respects, completely and forever. You cannot put your marriage in jeopardy ever again. Your spouse has given you a second chance that you probably don’t deserve. That may sound harsh, but think about it this way: Despite any marital problems the two of you experienced, you would certainly understand if they divorced you solely because of your adultery. So assume there will not be a third chance and behave accordingly.

This opportunity you have been bestowed is a monumental gift, particularly considering the anguish you caused them. Treat this gift, and your spouse, with care and due respect: No contact means NO CONTACT OF ANY KIND – EVER.

GET INTO THERAPY: Most attempts to heal and rebuild after infidelity will fail without the assistance of a qualified therapist. Make certain you both feel comfortable with the therapist. You must trust them and have faith in their methodology. Talk about it: If of you are uncomfortable with your therapist at any time, don’t delay – find another. And if need be, yet another. Then stick with it. Save particularly volatile topics for counselling sessions. Your therapist will provide a neutral place and safe means to discuss these subjects constructively. Every so often, think back to where you were two or three months earlier. Compare that to where you are now and determine if you’re making progress. Progress will be made slowly, not daily or even weekly, so do not perform daily or weekly evaluations. Make the comparative periods long enough to allow a “moderate-term” review rather than “short-term.” Expect setbacks or even restarts, and again… stick with it.

APOLOGIZE: Actually, that should read: “Apologize, apologize, apologize.” You cannot apologize too often, but you can apologize improperly. Apologize genuinely and fully. Betrayed spouses develop a finely calibrated “insincerity radar.” A partial or disingenuous apology will feel meaningless, condescending or even insulting, particularly during the months following discovery. Your spouse will feel better if you don’t merely say, “I’m sorry.” To a betrayed spouse that sounds and feels empty. Try to continue and complete the apology by saying everything that’s now salient to your partner: “I’m ashamed I cheated on you and I’m so very sorry. I know that my lying and deceiving you has hurt you enormously. I deeply want to earn back your trust – and I want so much for you to be able, some day, to forgive me.” As noted earlier, right now genuine, complete and repeated apologies are the best “general use” tool you have in your repair kit.

REALIZE YOUR PARTNER WANTS TO FEEL BETTER: There is so much they have to deal with – pain, anger, disappointment, confusion and despair. Their being, their world, is swirling in a black hole of negative feelings. It’s agonizing. They wish it would stop, but they feel powerless to make it go away, which worries them even more. Remember that they can’t help it: Just as they didn’t choose for this to happen, they don’t choose to feel this way. Beyond all the possible feelings described in the section above (and that list may be incomplete in your spouse’s case), even if they don’t understand them, they do recognize that changes are occurring in themselves – and they are frightened by them. As terrible as it is for you to see their ongoing nightmare, it is far worse to live in it. Periodically assure them that you know they will get better, that you are willing to do everything necessary for them to heal and to make your marriage work. Reassure them that you are with them for the duration – no matter how long it takes – and that you intend to spend the rest of your life with them.

HIDE NOTHING, OPEN EVERYTHING: While they’re greatly angered and hurt that you were emotionally and/or sexually involved with another person, they are even more devastated by your secret life, your lies and deception. They feel no trust in you right now – and they’re 100% justified. If ever there was someone in the world they felt they could trust, it was you – until now. Now, they have difficulty believing anything you say. They are driven to check up on everything. Let them. Better still, help them. Overload them with access. The era of “covering your tracks” must end and be supplanted by total and voluntary transparency.

You must dismantle and remove every vestige of secrecy. Offer your spouse the passwords to your email accounts – yes, even the secret one they still don’t know about. Let them bring in the mail. If you receive a letter, card or email from your paramour, let your spouse open it. If you receive a voice or text message on your cell phone, let them retrieve it and delete it. If your friends provided alibis for you, end those friendships. Do not change your phone bill to a less detailed version or delete your browser history. Provide your spouse with your credit card bills, bank account statements, cell phone bills and anything else you think they might wish to check. Immediately tell them if you hear from or accidentally run into your affair partner. Tell them where you are going, when you’ll be home, and be on time. If your plans change, notify them immediately.

The more willing you are to be transparent, the more honesty and openness they see and feel, the more “trust chits” you’ll earn. Replacing your previously secret life with complete openness is the fastest and most effective way to promote trust, even if it feels unfair or uncomfortable. Think of this as the “reverse image” of your affair: Your affair was about you selfishly making yourself feel good. Now, rebuilding trust is about selflessly making your partner feel safe with you – and you were certainly unfair to them. Keep in mind that eventually they will trust you again, but you must earn it and it will take time.

SPEND LOTS TIME WITH THEM: Assume that they want your company at all times. The more time you spend in their sight, the more they will feel a sense of safety, if only for that time. There may be times when you feel they’re a constant, perhaps even an annoying presence. Just remember that they need to be around you – more than ever. If they need time alone, they’ll let you know and you must respect that, too. Knowing where you are and who you are with reduces worry, but expect them to check up on you. Don’t take offence when this happens. Instead, welcome the opportunity: Think of each time – and each success – as receiving a check mark in the “Passed the Test” column. The more check marks you earn, the closer you are to being trusted again.

PHYSICAL CONTACT: They may or may not want to be sexual with you. If not, allow sufficient time for them to get comfortable with the idea of renewed intimacy and let them set the pace. But if so, don’t be discouraged if the sex is not optimum. They’re likely to be low on confidence and may feel self-conscious or inept. They may even act clumsily. This can be offset by lots of simple, soothing physical gestures such as hugging them, stroking them softly and providing kisses. You might try surprising them sexually. Try something new. Choose moments when they don’t expect it – it can feel fresh again. On the other hand, don’t be surprised if their sexual appetite and arousal is unusually heightened as some partners experience what’s called ‘Hysterical Bonding.’ Also be aware that during lovemaking they may suffer intrusive thoughts or mental images of you and your affair partner, so they may suddenly shut down or even burst into tears. Again, apologize for making them feel this way. Express that you choose them – and not your affair partner. Reassure them by emphasizing that they are the only one you truly want.

SHARE YOUR FEELINGS OF GUILT AND SHAME: If you exhibit no shame or guilt for hurting them, they’ll wonder if you’re truly capable of being sensitive, caring or even feeling. They may see you as callous and self-absorbed, and question if it’s really worth another try with you. But if you’re like most people who have badly hurt someone you truly love, then you certainly feel shame and guilt, though verbalizing it may be hard for you. Of course, some people do find it difficult to express these feelings, but try. You’ll find it provides a great sense of relief to share this with your partner. Moreover, do not fail to realize is how vitally important it is for your partner to hear it, to feel it, to see it in your eyes. It’s a building block in the reconstruction of trust and the repair of your marriage. Do not underestimate the power of satisfying their need to know that you are disappointed in yourself. Your opening up about this will help them feel secure again, help them to heal, and help you heal, too.

LET THEM KNOW YOU ARE HAPPY WITH YOUR CHOICE TO RECOMMIT: You probably think this is obvious, but to your betrayed partner, precious little is obvious anymore. They will wonder about this. Do not make them guess, and do not make them ask. Just tell them. If it doesn’t seem to come naturally at first, it may help if every now and then, you ask yourself, “If they had betrayed me this way, would I still be here?” (Most of us would answer, “No,” even if we can’t imagine being in that position.) When people give second chances to others, they really want to know that it’s meaningful to, and appreciated by, the recipient. So, express your thanks. Tell them how grateful you are for the opportunity to repair the damage you’ve done and rebuild your marriage. You’ll be surprised how much this simple, heartfelt act of gratitude will mean to them, and how it helps to re-establish the bond between you.

HERE’S A GREAT TIP: You will find it’s particularly meaningful to them when they’re obviously feeling low, but they’re locked in silence and aren’t expressing it to you. Just imagine… In their moments of unspoken loneliness or despair, you walk up to them, hug them and say, “I just want you to know how grateful I am that you’re giving me a second chance. Thank you so much. I love you more than ever for this. I’ve been feeling so ashamed of what I did and how much pain I caused you. I want you to know that I’ll never do anything to hurt you like this – ever again. I know I broke your heart and it torments me. I want you to know your heart is safe with me again.”

These are beautifully comforting words, particularly when they’re delivered at such a perfect
moment. You can memorize the quote, modify it, or use your own words, whatever is most
comfortable for you. The key is to include, in no particular order, all six of these components:

A statement of gratitude.

An expression of your love.

An acknowledgment of your spouse’s pain.

An admission that you caused their pain.

An expression of your sense of shame.

A promise that it will never happen again

Unfaithful spouses I’ve counselled often report that this most welcome surprise is the best thing they did to lift their partner’s spirits – as well as their own.

SECTION 3 - SO WHAT ARE THE NEXT STAGES, AFTER THEY WORK THROUGH ALL THEIR GRIEF, PAIN AND STRESS?

HOPE: They believe they will get better. They still have good days and bad days, but the good days out balance the bad. Sometimes they can work effectively, enjoy activities and really care
for others.

COMMITMENT: They know they have a choice. Life won’t be the same, but they decide to actively begin building a new life.

SEEKING: They take initiative, renewing their involvement with former friends and activities. They
begin exploring new involvements.

PEACE: They feel able to accept the affair and its repercussions, and face their own future.

LIFE OPENS UP: Life has value and meaning again. They can enjoy, appreciate, and anticipate events. They are willing to let the rest of their life be all it can be. They can more easily seek and find joy.

FORGIVENESS: While the memory will never leave them, the burden they’ve been carrying from your betrayal is lifted. Given what you have done, the pain it caused them and the anguish they lived through, this is the ultimate gift they can bestow. They give it not only to you, but to themselves. Be grateful for this gift – and cherish it always.

Rejoice in your renewed commitment to spend your lives together in happiness. Celebrate it together regularly! 
*


----------



## Chaparral

bandit.45 said:


> Exactly.
> 
> You nailed it.
> 
> And that is why RS's reconciliation is doomed to fail. She is stringing him along until the next OM makes his appearance.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Wouldn't that mean no reconciliation was ever possible when the wife cheats?


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## bandit.45

Chaparral said:


> Wouldn't that mean no reconciliation was ever possible when the wife cheats?


I don't believe there is such a thing as true reconciliation. One spouse has to give up more than the other. Equality is gone forever.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ThePheonix

Chaparral said:


> Wouldn't that mean no reconciliation was ever possible when the wife cheats?


"Reconciliation" is possible and couples can stay together. But it ain't going to ever be the same and the wayward will never get the other person out of their mind. Folks are right about playing disturbing mind movies because I'll guarantee she/he will be playing them to, but they won't be disturbing; at least not in the same sense. 
Moreover, in the back of your mind you will always be thinking, "hey they cheated before. What makes me think they won't cheat again?" You have to remember Dawg, if she was that crazy about me and I provided for all her need, why the hell was she slipping around to be with someone else? And why do I believe things have changed where she now has it out of her system.


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## Just Joe

bandit.45 said:


> I don't believe there is such a thing as true reconciliation. One spouse has to give up more than the other. Equality is gone forever.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


bandit, you are one of my favorite posters here. Was reading another thread this morning where you posted something like "her skank value just doubled" and made me spit my coffee out all over the front of my pants. Where do I send the dry cleaning bill?

I have never been in an equal relationship. One partner is always contributing more than the other, one is always giving up more than the other. I don't equate reconciliation with equality.

It seems Road's relationship was close to equal before and close to equal now, except that he has to live with the memory. Hard to judge from out here.


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## bfree

*Re: Re: No sex after her affair...*



bandit.45 said:


> Exactly.
> 
> You nailed it.
> 
> And that is why RS's reconciliation is doomed to fail. She is stringing him along until the next OM makes his appearance.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree in that I don't believe RS's marriage is going to survive. However, you do have to acknowledge that a woman's interest in you can be rekindled. And btw, that goes for men too. If you go over to Athol Kay's site you can read many success stories by both men and women. Infidelity is never acceptable at any time but for those couples that are both really open to trying marriages can be rebuilt.


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## bfree

*Re: Re: No sex after her affair...*



ThePheonix said:


> "Reconciliation" is possible and couples can stay together. But it ain't going to ever be the same and the wayward will never get the other person out of their mind. Folks are right about playing disturbing mind movies because I'll guarantee she/he will be playing them to, but they won't be disturbing; at least not in the same sense.
> Moreover, in the back of your mind you will always be thinking, "hey they cheated before. What makes me think they won't cheat again?" You have to remember Dawg, if she was that crazy about me and I provided for all her need, why the hell was she slipping around to be with someone else? And why do I believe things have changed where she now has it out of her system.


I would argue that it shouldn't be the same and in fact should never have been that way in the first place. Nobody should ever trust anyone 100%. We are all human and we will screw up from time to time, sometimes royally. When you hurt someone the amount they are hurt is directly proportional to how close a relationship they have. And if you are constantly worried about someone cheating I would suggest that is more due to a personal insecurity rather than anything they do or don't do.


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## Just Joe

ThePheonix said:


> "Reconciliation" is possible and couples can stay together. But* it ain't going to ever be the same* and *the wayward will never get the other person out of their mind*. Folks are right about playing disturbing mind movies because I'll guarantee she/he will be playing them to, but they won't be disturbing; at least not in the same sense.
> Moreover, in the back of your mind you will always be thinking, "hey they cheated before. What makes me think they won't cheat again?" You have to remember Dawg, if she was that crazy about me and I provided for all her need, why the hell was she slipping around to be with someone else? And why do I believe things have changed where she now has it out of her system.


I had a lot of relationships before I got married and things got pretty serious in a couple. Those have faded and I rarely think of them. Are you saying that if I had an affair, I would never stop thinking about the other woman and it would never fade like those others? Some former cheaters post here, it doesn't seem like they are thinking about their affair partners constantly. What do you base your comment on?

As far as things staying the same, a lot happens in relationships to cause things not to stay the same, some good and some bad. Cheating is on the extreme "bad" side of that scale, but I don't think it's insurmountable to get over it.

I think a lot of this is situational. A 1 night stand or a 6-month affair or a 3-year affair I think are different. Road's case is weird because his wife seemed pretty great before the affair, then after he found out she pulled the "no sex for 5 months while I lie and continue to fook other man," which I think is one of the more egregious things I've come across as far as bad cheaters and things that are tough to get over go, and then she went back all in. That's what it looks like from here. I think Road and his wife will work it out eventually, it's only been less than a year and it seems everyone who has reconciled says it takes at least 2.

One thing I noticed is that it's not the cheating so much that determines whether reconciliation is possible, it's what happens, how the betrayed and the cheater react, after the cheating is discovered. The lies and blaming afterward seem to be the biggest obstacle in a lot of these threads.


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## Cynthia

Wolfman1968 said:


> Remember the question was specifically about getting a Wayward Spouse to reconnect.
> 
> It sounds like you are blaming the victim here. The BS "caused the WS to disconnect?"
> 
> And what if there weren't behaviors that "caused the other person to disconnect." What if the problem is personality defects of the WS?


I was responding specifically to the comment made by ThePheonix that I quoted.
Edited to add:
I understand how it could seem to be blaming the victim, but that is not my point at all. It goes both ways. She will have to help him heal and do whatever it takes before she can expect anything from him. She took from him and she needs to replace that before he has anything to give her.


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## azteca1986

Just Joe said:


> One thing I noticed is that it's not the cheating so much that determines whether reconciliation is possible, it's what happens, how the betrayed and the cheater react, after the cheating is discovered. *The lies and blaming afterward seem to be the biggest obstacle in a lot of these threads.*


In RS's case the deception continues. There has been no time line proffered. RS has no idea the extent of her betrayal, so he knows not what he forgives. Keeping secrets is part of her affair behaviour and her failure to to be honest is what keeps RS in limbo and is what some suspect will doom their R.

TAM is a pro-marriage forum, lest we forget, and for the best shot at a successful R honest communication between RS and his wife is the best way forward. For now the "f"WW is dictating the terms of the (false?) R.


----------



## Just Joe

azteca1986 said:


> In RS's case the deception continues. There has been no time line proffered. RS has no idea the extent of her betrayal, so he knows not what he forgives. Keeping secrets is part of her affair behaviour and her failure to to be honest is what keeps RS in limbo and is what some suspect will doom their R.
> 
> TAM is a pro-marriage forum, lest we forget, and for the best shot at a successful R honest communication between RS and his wife is the best way forward. For now the "f"WW is dictating the terms of the (false?) R.


I agree I wouldn't want to continue if she refused to give me a timeline, but I also am not him, so it is not my decision.

I'm not sure what your "pro-marriage lest we forget" comment means, I am pro marriage.

My opinion from reading the posts made by Road is that he knows what he is forgiving, he has filled in the blanks of the timeline on his own, so it really is just a matter of her refusal to give him one rather than the details it would reveal. I could be wrong. In my opinion, the lack of a timeline is not enough reason in this case to break up the marriage.

I look at her not giving him a timeline from a few different angles. She said she didn't want to give him one, but I don't see where he really pushed her for it. He seemed to have glossed over it and not really ever said it something he needs. It is a long thread and I definitely didn't read every post, so maybe I missed it. He seems like he doesn't care too much about it and has let it go, so it would be odd for her at this point to give it to him out of the blue now months after being initially being asked when the subject has been dropped for months now. She and he both seem to have put that in the past, it would be different if he kept asking her for it every day and she kept refusing. As much as you or I would like to see her do it, he is the one who has to push for it if that is what he needs and wants.

What is the deception that is continuing? I'm not saying there is not, how could I know, but also, how could you know? Is there some behavior on her part that cheaters do when they still are actively deceiving? Is the timeline it?


----------



## LongWalk

RS is a thoughtful guy. Don't mistake his forgiveness for cowardice. His wife has fudged it when it comes to the time line, but that only means that she can lose him if she doesn't suck up to him to compensate for his lingering resentment. Any day RS can listen to her say something, any really small thing really, and it will trigger a reaction that flip the switch. It could be a small incident but he will just say,"I don't want her anymore. It's not worth it." Their marriage will be over. The missing timeline which could have saved their marriage will not be there.

RS's wife is alpha and assertive. That dynamic must now be suppressed. She may find it unbearable over time. Perhaps, though, they will have a deeper respect for each other.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## just got it 55

turnera said:


> Hogwash. If the man is willing to invest in learning how to create a loving relationship, how to be strong, how to keep things fresh, how to treat his wife the way he treated her when they were dating, she CAN fall in love with him again. And vice versa.


Worked that way for me T

I am living testimony to your point.

But..... It was damn hard work.

Mostly recognizing my POS tendencies. 

Well worth it though.

55


----------



## turnera

ThePheonix said:


> I'm glad you pointed out how his failure to do this things contributed to her lost romantic interest. Nice to see someone put some accountability on the BH for his wife seeking fulfillment elsewhere.


Uh, the question was can you get a woman back AFTER she has stopped loving him. And I said yes, you can.

It has nothing to do with who did what before any affair.


----------



## ThePheonix

turnera said:


> Uh, the question was can you get a woman back AFTER she has stopped loving him. And I said yes, you can.
> 
> It has nothing to do with who did what before any affair.


You said, " _If the man is willing to invest in learning how to create a loving relationship, how to be strong, how to keep things fresh, how to treat his wife the way he treated her when they were dating, she CAN fall in love with him again._" That infers he lost her love because he failed in the areas you mentioned. If not, what did you mean?


----------



## tom67

LongWalk said:


> RS is a thoughtful guy. Don't mistake his forgiveness for cowardice. His wife has fudged it when it comes to the time line, but that only means that she can lose him if she doesn't suck up to him to compensate for his lingering resentment. Any day RS can listen to her say something, any really small thing really, and it will trigger a reaction that flip the switch. It could be a small incident but he will just say,"I don't want her anymore. It's not worth it." Their marriage will be over. The missing timeline which could have saved their marriage will not be there.
> 
> RS's wife is alpha and assertive. That dynamic must now be suppressed. She may find it unbearable over time. Perhaps, though, they will have a deeper respect for each other.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



I think this is pretty darn accurate in my opinion it is up to RS as to how much more he will tolerate.
I am not him so I have no idea.


----------



## turnera

ThePheonix said:


> You said, " _If the man is willing to invest in learning how to create a loving relationship, how to be strong, how to keep things fresh, how to treat his wife the way he treated her when they were dating, she CAN fall in love with him again._" That infers he lost her love because he failed in the areas you mentioned. If not, what did you mean?


I said no such thing. I have no idea why any such couple would have fallen out of love. As I said, I wasn't addressing that. It could have come from a lot of reasons, his OR hers. I'm addressing a couple where the woman IS out of love. 

So, if he wants to change _that_, he would go back to what he did when they were dating and he was wooing her - having a loving situation, being strong, keeping things fresh. It worked once, it can work again.


----------



## tom67

turnera said:


> I said no such thing. I have no idea why any such couple would have fallen out of love. As I said, I wasn't addressing that. It could have come from a lot of reasons, his OR hers. I'm addressing a couple where the woman IS out of love.
> 
> So, if he wants to change _that_, he would go back to what he did when they were dating and he was wooing her - having a loving situation, being strong, keeping things fresh. It worked once, it can work again.


I have no problem with this.


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## ThePheonix

turnera said:


> I said no such thing.


Well, ya you did Dawg.




turnera said:


> Hogwash. If the man is willing to invest in learning how to create a loving relationship, how to be strong, how to keep things fresh, how to treat his wife the way he treated her when they were dating, she CAN fall in love with him again. And vice versa.


Therefore, if he can do these things and cause her to fall back in love with him, his failure to do them must have caused her to fall out of love with him. I mean the tingly became a chill for some reason.


----------



## turnera

ThePheonix said:


> Well, ya you did Dawg.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Therefore, *if he can do these things and cause her to fall back in love with him, his failure to do them must have caused her to fall out of love with him*. If he was already doing these things, he ain't gonna have what it takes and he's SOL.


I can see how you could extrapolate this, but again, it is NOT WHAT I SAID. I never said that he caused ANYTHING.

People fall out of love for hundreds of reasons - being in a rut, baggage from fights, issues with family members, picking to defend your parents in a fight instead of your spouse, not sharing the chores, workaholics, abuse...I could go on.

And I can name fewer than 5 couples I've known in my 56 years who STILL do those things after 10, 20, 30 years. It's human nature to let all that stuff fall by the wayside. And it's why when couples are having trouble, the first thing I tell them to do is start spending 15 hours a week together, doing 'date' things again.


----------



## Truthseeker1

Wow..I commented early on in this thread and things still seem to be unresolved. This is a sad frustrating story.


----------



## illwill

ThePheonix said:


> Yep. If a woman has lost romantic interest in you, it will never come back. (well maybe one case in a couple of thousand) Oh, she may love him, but its the old not in love with him. (meaning she doesn't want him touching anything from the neck down)
> 
> 
> 
> "Destruction of the childrens' lives" is hyperbole by a BH grasping for straws to save the marriage he lost. Plenty of kids from divorced households do as well or better. In fact, is fairly easy to find situations where the kids would have been better off had the parents busted up.


I agree. But that is not the issue. Unless there is somehow a guarantee the child will survive the split, it is still selfish. It is the actual RISK that is selfish, because they cannot know how it will turn out.

They weigh that risk then decide their own desire is worth the risk. 

They know it will destroy the spouse and family(that is why they hide it) and do it anyway.

Also children surviving the divorce is irrelevant. It does not change the narcissist acts that led to the divorce. 

And any money spent in that affair, is money that should have gone to the family you created, and promised to support. 

And often when we look back at our wayward spouses, that selfishness was always there in some form, hiding in plain sight.

There is simply no way to logically win this argument. 

Cheating is selfish. That is academic.


----------



## LongWalk

Truthseeker1 said:


> Wow..I commented early on in this thread and things still seem to be unresolved. This is a sad frustrating story.


By definition reconciliation takes time.

The BS who was deceived deeply over a period of time has to forge a new identity as a former BS. RS must feel that he is beloved by his WW and that she embraces an identity as a faithful spouse. An alcoholic can't skip drink for a week and conclude that they are dry. Months must pass before they can believe.

RS hasn't talked about the timeline. Perhaps he sees signs in her behavior that make the need less acute. The OM may have loved RS's WW. It is also possible that he got off on the triumph of enjoying another man's wife, without actually respecting her a person. He may have found her love flattering and naive. She may have asked herself these questions. After all, after Dday2, she knew that OM was not going to leave his wife to start a new life with her. Does the affair now seem sordid to her?

There is another thread about WW not doing the same things sexually with BH in R. Presumably, some "inner slvt" sex would seem like contamination of the healthy marriage to a woman. She would want her husband to want a profound connection. I wonder if missionary position is the choice in the beginning to make certain the emotional connection is there?


----------



## ThePheonix

turnera said:


> I never said that he caused ANYTHING.
> 
> And I can name fewer than 5 couples I've known in my 56 years who STILL do those things after 10, 20, 30 years. It's human nature to let all that stuff fall by the wayside. And it's why when couples are having trouble, the first thing I tell them to do is start spending 15 hours a week together, doing 'date' things again.


All couples have relatively the same fights, family problems, etc. Its like the glue you buy at the hardware store my man. The glue that binds some couples together is stronger than others. And generally one is more committed than the other. Personally, I'd rather the one more committed be my wife. Men are generally more satisfied with the status quo than women. (why gals change wardrobes so often) 



Truthseeker1 said:


> Wow..I commented early on in this thread and things still seem to be unresolved. This is a sad frustrating story.


It ain't gonna get resolved Dawg. Old RS's wife really just needs a place to crash. He's worked himself to death trying to reanimate his old lady. He needs to read the nursery rhyme, Humpty Dumpty


----------



## LongWalk

Affairs happen for a variety of reasons. A couple can be profoundly disconnected because one or both drink too much. One can be a workaholic. People get bored. Etc. One of TAM's mantras is that cheaters make a decision to get naked with someone else. They could always announce their decision to seek a divorce. Even a cheater who reveals that they are separating but not dating - often a lie - is at least signaling that monogamy is over.

RS never outlined a list of relationship issues. He has an Irish temper and Catholic guilt, but from what he writes we see a regular sort of guy. He probably was beta-ized by marriage. He failed to date his wife who has her own career. She wasn't feeling horny around him.

Marriage is a surrender for men since our nature is to seek more sex partners at the same time. Under social pressure we volunteer to enter marriage. We escape violence stemming from sexual jealousy but we become passive and less attractive to women.

In reconciliation the wayward and betrayed must find a new relationship. RS wasn't good enough for his wife in the false R. Now she is the one who fears rejection. If he doesn't initiate sex, that means he is checking out. 

It must be terrible looking at a wife's intimate parts and feeling, "yeah, but OM has been there, too, and got an enthusiastic reception." Must really kill an erection.

On the other hand after rejecting the WW and knowing the last thing she thought before she fell asleep was how her pvssy, which was magic as a teen, young woman and adulteress, is suddenly inadequate. Does the BH feel tenderness after dishing out the hurt?

Whenever the BH meets a flirtatious woman what incentive does he have to turn it off? Must be tempting to go for a revenge affair. Few TAM BS share RA details in real posting.


----------



## turnera

ThePheonix said:


> Personally, I'd rather the one more committed be my wife. Men are generally more satisfied with the status quo than women.


Which is why it's called Walkaway WIFE, not Walkaway HUSBAND. Why it's so common that the woman complains but the man's satisfied cos the woman is still taking care of him, doing the housework, raising the kids, doing the homework, and being ignored when she says she's not satisfied...until she just gives up and leaves.


----------



## LongWalk

Do you think RS's wife was WAW? Was it a exit affair?

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: No sex after her affair...*



LongWalk said:


> Do you think RS's wife was WAW? Was it a exit affair?
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


If it was then she didn't do it right cause she's still there...sort of.


----------



## LongWalk

She will be on board 100% if RS leads. He is doing it.

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


----------



## warlock07

bfree said:


> If it was then she didn't do it right cause she's still there...sort of.


unless her exit plan bailed on her and she was stuck with RS.


----------



## LongWalk

What she was thinking probably has never been honestly discussed between them. The timeline would have brought the subject into the open.

The affair might have become an exit affair if it had continued undiscovered. POSOM's marriage did not survive, did it? So RS's wife could perhaps have jumped ship. Having their email and text correspondence would have revealed their thinking. Perhaps her resistance to his requests for information were necessary to prevent him confronting the truth.

To know all is to forgive all. But one cannot forgive what is unknown.

When RS's fWW is half asleep at night does she reach for him instinctively?


----------



## GusPolinski

LongWalk said:


> But one cannot forgive what is unknown.


Exactly correct, sir.


----------



## LongWalk

Well, perhaps RS will return to talk about what is missing from the puzzle.

His wife may actually wish to unload more of the truth to avoid carrying it alone. Reminds of leaving a rake on the ground. Step on it and it smacks you in the face. Affairs create a lot of hazards.


----------



## ThePheonix

turnera said:


> Which is why it's called Walkaway WIFE, not Walkaway HUSBAND. Why it's so common that the woman complains but the man's satisfied cos the woman is still taking care of him, doing the housework, raising the kids, doing the homework, and being ignored when she says she's not satisfied...until she just gives up and leaves.


In my experience, women don't lie and men don't listen. When she does leave, and/or finds someone else, its always "the selfish bit-ch did me wrong". Maybe she just had all of your version of the good life you gave her she could stand.


----------



## Nucking Futs

ThePheonix said:


> In my experience, *women don't lie* and men don't listen. When she does leave, and/or finds someone else, its always "the selfish bit-ch did me wrong". Maybe she just had all of your version of the good life you gave her she could stand.


:bsflag:


----------



## OptimisticPessimist

Nucking Futs said:


> :bsflag:


+1



I mean, Im not trying to insult anyone but "dont lie" is going a bit far..


----------



## bandit.45

ThePheonix said:


> In my experience, women don't lie and men don't listen.


That's a lie.


----------



## tom67

bandit.45 said:


> That's a lie.


Women don't lie in the land of rainbows and unicorns.:lol:


----------



## illwill

ThePheonix said:


> In my experience, women don't lie.
> 
> You need to puff puff and pass that weed to me.


----------



## warlock07

ThePheonix said:


> In my experience, women don't lie and men don't listen. When she does leave, and/or finds someone else, its always "the selfish bit-ch did me wrong". Maybe she just had all of your version of the good life you gave her she could stand.


This is a guy..


----------



## sammy3

Delete


----------



## jld

ThePheonix said:


> In my experience, women don't lie and men don't listen.


This is true in our marriage.


----------



## sammy3

I really dont know if a marriage can survive when a third person comes into it. I myself have been struggling over 3 years, and while it's not even the affair anymore, but it's the fallout of the damage to one sense of self, and how it all relates now to the relationship. 

Some people move on quickly, bounce right back, move forward, some stay in limbo, some fight for the marriage, some stay forever in a unhappy marriage, and a small part are happy. 

But, what I'm learning, after all the hurt emotions are dealt with, it's the understanding and loving emotions, empathy for the ww, that need to come forward to start to grow the relationship again.

R is really hard. It will always a part of the marriage from now on out. Imho 

~sammy 

...and don't hang on to it for to long, illwill;-)


----------



## jld

sammy3 said:


> But, what I'm learning, after all the hurt emotions are dealt with, it's *the understanding and loving emotions, empathy for the ww,* that need to come forward to start to grow the relationship again.


I think this is wisdom, Sammy.


----------



## ThePheonix

jld said:


> This is true in our marriage.


They know I'm right. The gals told, or showed, them time and time again something was wrong. ( I should have explained I was limiting " women don't lie" when she tells you about the relationship. They'll lie to you after that because they don't want to deal with you and don't want you fettering their action) It amazes me how guys talk about how great a husband he was and she ditched him anyway. I've got news for those cats; if she thought everything was that great and you were the best thing since sliced bread, she'd still be around.


----------



## treyvion

ThePheonix said:


> They know I'm right. The gals told, or showed, them time and time again something was wrong. ( I should have explained I was limiting " women don't lie" when she tells you about the relationship. They'll lie to you after that because they don't want to deal with you and don't want you fettering their action) It amazes me how guys talk about how great a husband he was and she ditched him anyway. I've got news for those cats; if she thought everything was that great and you were the best thing since sliced bread, she'd still be around.


 You been on TAM tjis long and youre still putting most of the blame on the man?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lordmayhem

ThePheonix said:


> They know I'm right. The gals told, or showed, them time and time again something was wrong. ( I should have explained I was limiting " women don't lie" when she tells you about the relationship. They'll lie to you after that because they don't want to deal with you and don't want you fettering their action) It amazes me how guys talk about how great a husband he was and she ditched him anyway. I've got news for those cats; if she thought everything was that great and you were the best thing since sliced bread, she'd still be around.


Thing about it is

Many men don't recognize hints
Many men don't understand double talk
Most men don't read minds

Most men understand communication thru actual spoken words, not innuendos, hints, and double talk. Take for example, the wife says "Don't you get me something for Valentines Day" or something like that. So what happens, the guy takes that literally and doesn't get her anything. He doesn't realize this is yet another sh!t test/fitness test. Then he doesn't understand why she's so pissed off that he didn't get her anything. In her mind, _if he really loves her, he would get her something despite her telling him not to get her anything_. This is the double talk I'm talking about. Husbands are expected to read between the lines, when men are literal. 

Just like when a husband sees that his wife is upset about something, and he asks what's the matter, and he gets the dreaded N word...."Nothing!". Of course he's supposed to read her mind and figure out what's wrong. And once again, the mindset is _if he really loves you, he would know what's wrong_.

So of course, many dudes go about their marriage thinking nothing is wrong and they're doing great because they don't get all the hints or understand all the fitness tests and double talk.


----------



## illwill

ThePheonix said:


> They know I'm right. The gals told, or showed, them time and time again something was wrong. ( I should have explained I was limiting " women don't lie" when she tells you about the relationship. They'll lie to you after that because they don't want to deal with you and don't want you fettering their action) It amazes me how guys talk about how great a husband he was and she ditched him anyway. I've got news for those cats; if she thought everything was that great and you were the best thing since sliced bread, she'd still be around.


I could take this post, bury it in my backyard, and grow vegetables. 

Stop blaming the husband. Its ridiculous. You can be a great husband and still get dumped. It is usually not because the husband is damaged, its because the wife is.

The green grass theory comes to mind. Or maybe the seven year itch.

And if the hubby is here because he was cheated on, im willing to bet he was the giver in that marriage, and by default the better partner.

For waywatds being the giver often translates to a perceived weakness to be exploited. 

You been here too long to be this ignorant about the complexities of why people cheat.


----------



## illwill

lordmayhem said:


> Thing about it is
> 
> Many men don't recognize hints
> Many men don't understand double talk
> Most men don't read minds
> 
> Most men understand communication thru actual spoken words, not innuendos, hints, and double talk. Take for example, the wife says "Don't you get me something for Valentines Day" or something like that. So what happens, the guy takes that literally and doesn't get her anything. He doesn't realize this is yet another sh!t test/fitness test. Then he doesn't understand why she's so pissed off that he didn't get her anything. In her mind, _if he really loves her, he would get her something despite her telling him not to get her anything_. This is the double talk I'm talking about. Husbands are expected to read between the lines, when men are literal.
> 
> Just like when a husband sees that his wife is upset about something, and he asks what's the matter, and he gets the dreaded N word...."Nothing!". Of course he's supposed to read her mind and figure out what's wrong. And once again, the mindset is _if he really loves you, he would know what's wrong_.
> 
> So of course, many dudes go about their marriage thinking nothing is wrong and they're doing great because they don't get all the hints or understand all the fitness tests and double talk.



Or they say nothing at all and simply cheat because they like cake and feel entitled. Many women cheat without giving their husbands a warning shot. Many.

Your view on husbands sounds like a relic from The Oprah Winfrey show.

Modern men are a lot more sensitive to their wives needs than you are giving them credit for.


----------



## illwill

jld said:


> This is true in our marriage.


You hope its true in your marriage. Like many betrayed spouses also hoped before dday.


----------



## lordmayhem

illwill said:


> Your view on husbands sounds like a relic from The Oprah Winfrey show.
> 
> Modern men are a lot more sensitive to their wives needs than you are giving them credit for.


----------



## Chaparral

illwill said:


> Or they say nothing at all and simply cheat because they like cake and feel entitled. Many women cheat without giving their husbands a warning shot. Many.
> 
> Your view on husbands sounds like a relic from The Oprah Winfrey show.
> 
> Modern men are a lot more sensitive to their wives needs than you are giving them credit for.


Well, it sure as hell hasn't shown up in marriage statistics has it? Divorce and infidelity are at epic porportions.


----------



## bfree

The trick is not so much being sensitive to a women's needs as being willing and able to walk away from the relationship if necessary. My wife knows if she tells me there is a problem I will work with her to solve it. But if she hints around I'm not going to give it a brain cell's thought. If she doesn't explicitly tell me about a problem and it ends our marriage it's on her and I won't feel the slightest guilt. I'm not a mind reader, don't want to be and refuse to be. Communicate or shove off.


----------



## xakulax

bfree said:


> The trick is not so much being sensitive to a women's needs as being willing and able to walk away from the relationship if necessary. My wife knows if she tells me there is a problem I will work with her to solve it. But if she hints around I'm not going to give it a brain cell's thought. If she doesn't explicitly tell me about a problem and it ends our marriage it's on her and I won't feel the slightest guilt. I'm not a mind reader, don't want to be and refuse to be. Communicate or shove off.





:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:


----------



## treyvion

illwill said:


> I could take this post, bury it in my backyard, and grow vegetables.
> 
> Stop blaming the husband. Its ridiculous. You can be a great husband and still get dumped. It is usually not because the husband is damaged, its because the wife is.
> 
> The green grass theory comes to mind. Or maybe the seven year itch.
> 
> And if the hubby is here because he was cheated on, im willing to bet he was the giver in that marriage, and by default the better partner.
> 
> For waywatds being the giver often translates to a perceived weakness to be exploited.
> 
> You been here too long to be this ignorant about the complexities of why people cheat.


Hey, I'm glad you brought out the idea of being a "giver".

You see some who are "givers" don't realize that there are people sneaking and creeping in the grass looking for someone just like them...

"Just cause you did so and so for me doesn't mean I have to do something for you".

It's up to you as an adult to recognize it.


----------



## treyvion

lordmayhem said:


>


We show a wife the love of a man, and they show us the treachery of a elusive viper.


----------



## ThePheonix

illwill said:


> Stop blaming the husband. Its ridiculous. You can be a great husband and still get dumped. It is usually not because the husband is damaged, its because the wife is.



Of course some women, like some men, are going to cheat. They've got a hole in them that nobody can fill. But you've got other, both men and women, that have to have a little motivation. Take a former "client" of mine. At age 36 she gained a good bit weight due to medications she was taking and couldn't exercise it off. Her old man found her repulsive, let her know it, refused to have anything to do with her, and started chasing skinner chicks. She had a enough of his crap and complained to my friend who steered her to someone who appreciates a curvy woman and knows how to make them feel special. I pretty well know she wouldn't have look for outside interest if her old man wouldn't have been such a d-ck. 

To simply blame the WS without exploring your possible contribution is counterproductive and you my repeat the action in your future relationship. We've heard of several guys who claim two, three, or more woman have cheated on them. Either they are the unluckiest guys you'll every meet, their choice and judgement in women is way out of kilter, or their actions are driving the babes into the arms of another man. Notwithstanding the bad luck factor, in either cases they need to take a look at their own actions. It may be because they're a wussy beta guy, a SAHD (one in the same) or mistreating their woman. Or maybe he latched onto a gal who just wakes up feeling like a new man.

I'm just trying to help Dawg


----------



## turnera

The thing is, we are ALL people and each of us has feelings, needs, fears...even cheaters. And, except for the psychopath types, there's usually a reason a cheater goes from the wide-eyed bride or groom to the person who cheats. Not necessarily the FAULT of the BS, but if the BS wants to ensure a good marriage going forward post-affair, it behooves him or her to take a good hard look at the marriage and see what BOTH of them could do differently. Truth is, most of us suck at having an amazing marriage. We get complacent, we seek comfort, we get in ruts, we take things for granted, we stop 'dating,' we develop unspoken resentments that plant seeds...we're nearly all guilty of this in some level and thus we all could take steps to ensure that both parties are being nearly completely satisfied in our marriages so that even considering turning to someone else would be unthinkable.


----------



## OptimisticPessimist

ThePheonix said:


> Of course some women, like some men, are going to cheat. They've got a hole in them that nobody can fill. But you've got other, both men and women, that have to have a little motivation. Take a former "client" of mine. At age 36 she gained a good bit weight due to medications she was taking and couldn't exercise it off. Her old man found her repulsive, let her know it, refused to have anything to do with her, and started chasing skinner chicks. She had a enough of his crap and complained to my friend who steered her to someone who appreciates a curvy woman and knows how to make them feel special. I pretty well know she wouldn't have look for outside interest if her old man wouldn't have been such a d-ck.
> 
> To simply blame the WS without exploring your possible contribution is counterproductive and you my repeat the action in your future relationship. We've heard of several guys who claim two, three, or more woman have cheated on them. Either they are the unluckiest guys you'll every meet, their choice and judgement in women is way out of kilter, or their actions are driving the babes into the arms of another man. Notwithstanding the bad luck factor, in either cases they need to take a look at their own actions. It may be because they're a wussy beta guy, a SAHD (one in the same) or mistreating their woman. Or maybe he latched onto a gal who just wakes up feeling like a new man.
> 
> I'm just trying to help Dawg





turnera said:


> The thing is, we are ALL people and each of us has feelings, needs, fears...even cheaters. And, except for the psychopath types, there's usually a reason a cheater goes from the wide-eyed bride or groom to the person who cheats. Not necessarily the FAULT of the BS, but if the BS wants to ensure a good marriage going forward post-affair, it behooves him or her to take a good hard look at the marriage and see what BOTH of them could do differently. Truth is, most of us suck at having an amazing marriage. We get complacent, we seek comfort, we get in ruts, we take things for granted, we stop 'dating,' we develop unspoken resentments that plant seeds...we're nearly all guilty of this in some level and thus we all could take steps to ensure that both parties are being nearly completely satisfied in our marriages so that even considering turning to someone else would be unthinkable.


It seems to me you both have the same opinion here? I guess im not quite sure if Turnera's reproach is intended to argue with or reinforce what ThePhoenix said. Apologies if im not following the desired intent...

I agree with you both. Cheating is never the fault of the BS- the WS made the choice, and the choice was made placing self-interest above the feelings of the other party. At the same time, the cheating spouse cheats precisely because sensory input and the subsequent interpretation of such sensory input has led them to believe the AP is "higher" in rank than the BS. This may not be true of course (and often isnt). 

I look at it this way- if the other person wanted you enough to marry you, subsequent acts of infidelity are an issue of failed value communication and of failed moral capacity (at least divorce before ANY relationship with another person); that is to say, either the cheater fails to realize the many positive characteristics of their spouse through interpretational complacency, or the betrayed spouse hasnt effectively communicated their value through actions they take. It doesnt mean they dont have value, just that they should consider the manner in which they communicated their value.

Plenty of guys buy roses all the time, jewelry, constantly compliment, etc. However, too much of this indicates neediness, insecurity (must cover faults by being overly nice), or desperation. A woman will only FEEL for a man doing nice things for her when that very man demonstrates implicitly or explicitly his ability to effect a positive environment through his actions; if he has this ability, she will FEEL for him regardless of how nice he is to her (unfortunately..) so long as his "non-niceness" doesnt demonstrate a lack of value in his character. Even a woman with self-confidence in spades might feel for a man who treats her poorly (so long as he has "power" over physical or ideological facets of his environment), but she at least will have the confidence to leave and find another man who also treats her with respect.

Disclaimer: we could argue whether any man of value would treat a woman who loved him poorly. Einstein treated his wife like crap, and yet few would argue his contributions to the field of physics. So like anything else, a simple label often fails to survive any scrutiny.


----------



## NoRush

ThePheonix said:


> They know I'm right. The gals told, or showed, them time and time again something was wrong. ( I should have explained I was limiting " women don't lie" when she tells you about the relationship. They'll lie to you after that because they don't want to deal with you and don't want you fettering their action) It amazes me how guys talk about how great a husband he was and she ditched him anyway. I've got news for those cats; if she thought everything was that great and you were the best thing since sliced bread, she'd still be around.


Women don't lie about relationships? Ooooh boy have you got a lot to learn.

It's true that the woman is usually the first to complain, but even then you are operating under a misguided notion. Not all communication is effective. Women tend to behave passively rather than assertively.

How does a woman tell you she wants to go to Hawaii? Does she tell you: "Honey, for our next vacation let's go to Hawaii"? No. She talks loudly over the phone to her friend about how wonderful it must be to be there. And she does it while you're watching the big game.

Like you I am generalizing, but the situation I described happens far, far too often.


----------



## ThePheonix

NoRush said:


> Women don't lie about relationships? Ooooh boy have you got a lot to learn.


Go back and read some post that guys write and you'll see what I mean. For instance (changed slightly to protect the poster):

_"She has bouts with depression and doesn't want me around"

"She screams and criticizes me all the time."

" She says she doesn't know what she wants anymore"

" Sex has tapered off to zero and she acts like she can't stand it if I touch her"_

" But she lead me to believe everything was ok."


----------



## OptimisticPessimist

NoRush said:


> Women don't lie about relationships? Ooooh boy have you got a lot to learn.
> 
> It's true that the woman is usually the first to complain, but even then you are operating under a misguided notion. Not all communication is effective. Women tend to behave passively rather than assertively.
> 
> How does a woman tell you she wants to go to Hawaii? Does she tell you: "Honey, for our next vacation let's go to Hawaii"? No. She talks loudly over the phone to her friend about how wonderful it must be to be there. And she does it while you're watching the big game.
> 
> Like you I am generalizing, but the situation I described happens far, far too often.


Ahh, this reply makes me realize what Turnera was responding to. You get involved in so many threads its hard to keep it all straight 

I definitely do not agree in the slightest with "women do not lie in relationships". I do agree with the post ThePhoenix posted above that I quoted, and Turnera's following


----------



## OptimisticPessimist

ThePheonix said:


> Go back and read some post that guys write and you'll see what I mean. For instance (changed slightly to protect the poster):
> 
> _"She has bouts with depression and doesn't want me around"
> 
> "She screams and criticizes me all the time."
> 
> " She says she doesn't know what she wants anymore"
> 
> " Sex has tapered off to zero and she acts like she can't stand it if I touch her"_
> 
> " But she lead me to believe everything was ok."


I understand where youre coming from. At the same time, women also say things like:

"I need some time alone to figure out my feelings" (LIE- they know their feelings)
"Im fine" (LIE- something is wrong and she wants to know if you care enough to find out what. She does NOT want you to just assume shes fine)
"I love you but im not in-love with you" (LIE- they are 2 steps from blowing up your life)
"We only kissed" (LIE- they had unprotected sex in your bed)
etc, etc, etc..

Of course, men lie as well, so I certainly am not only giving women a hard time. Anyways, this is going a little off-topic so Ill stop there


----------



## Nucking Futs

ThePheonix said:


> Actually she's not lying. Its womanspeak for saying "get lost".
> 
> Here's a translation for the first one:
> 
> You hear, "I need some time alone to figure out my feelings"
> 
> She's saying, "You’ve become very annoying and undesirable. I get back with you, like in 25,000 years."


Womanspeak eh? Might be a good idea to just use womanspeak with other women, and speak plainly to men.


----------



## ThePheonix

OptimisticPessimist said:


> "I need some time alone to figure out my feelings" (LIE- they know their feelings)
> 
> "I love you but im not in-love with you" (LIE- they are 2 steps from blowing up your life)
> 
> "We only kissed" (LIE- they had unprotected sex in your bed)
> etc, etc, etc..


Actually she's not lying. Its womanspeak for saying "get lost". 

Here's a translation for the first one:

You hear, "I need some time alone to figure out my feelings"

She's saying, "You’ve become very annoying and undesirable. I'll get back with you when I've decided, like in 25,000 years."


----------



## ThePheonix

OptimisticPessimist said:


> "Im fine" (LIE- something is wrong and she wants to know if you care enough to find out what. She does NOT want you to just assume shes fine)


I may as well translate the second one.

You hear, "I'm fine"

She's saying, "I'm pizzed, you ain't getting any so forget about it."


----------



## OptimisticPessimist

ThePheonix said:


> Actually she's not lying. Its womanspeak for saying "get lost".
> 
> Here's a translation for the first one:
> 
> You hear, "I need some time alone to figure out my feelings"
> 
> She's saying, "You’ve become very annoying and undesirable. I'll get back with you when I've decided, like in 25,000 years."


Right. How is this not lying? Shes saying something that is not true- she doesnt need to figure out her feelings- she knows what they are and yet she says she doesnt.


ThePheonix said:


> I may as well translate the second one.
> 
> You hear, "I'm fine"
> 
> She's saying, "I'm pizzed, you ain't getting any so forget about it."


Same as above. Shes lying to either spare your feelings, avoid a fight, because shes too mad to want to fix anything with you, or to see if you have the salt to figure it out on your own. Its a lie- it isnt what she presents on the surface.

"Im headed out to comfort a friend whos having problems with her husband" (LIE- Im going out to be with another man, most likely sexually). This may as well be taken from 3/4 of the stories in CWI!

I understand what you mean about a man missing cues given to him, I understand and agree that a man should retrospectively consider his actions and how they may have contributed to the failed relationship, and I understand that a man can drop the ball.

But a woman never lies in a relationship? No, that is definitely not true.

If "codespeak" seeks to mislead or subtly present an issue in a way that is not compliant with how she actually feels, its a lie too. Words are lingual labels that describe states of being; a "feeling" word describes an electrochemical state of the mind, which in itself is a response to the surrounding environment. If she doesnt put forth words that clearly demonstrate her "feeling" in regards to the environment of the relationship and she does so intentionally, thats LYING.

The burden of conveyance lies with the speaker, not with the audience.

I suppose we will have to agree to disagree since you seem adament about this and I can assure you I am as well.


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## bfree

A man instinctively knows (most of the time) when "his woman" is troubled. The question is whether he really wants to probe or not. Sometimes my wife gives me the "I'm fine" response when I know she really isn't. In my first marriage and with other women I might have left it alone and figured she'd tell me if it really mattered. Now I'll just look at her and say "I know you aren't fine but I'm not a mind reader. If you choose not to tell me what is bothering you then you aren't communicating with me and any fallout is on you." She knows I'm serious and not once has that ever failed to get her to open up.


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## NoRush

ThePhoenix, saying one thing and meaning another is the very definition of lying. If I need a cypher to figure out what you're talking about, you're lying.


----------



## turnera

OptimisticPessimist said:


> Plenty of guys buy roses all the time, jewelry, constantly compliment, etc. However, too much of this indicates neediness, insecurity (must cover faults by being overly nice), or desperation. A woman will only FEEL for a man doing nice things for her when that very man demonstrates implicitly or explicitly his ability to effect a positive environment through his actions


And to take it to a more complicated level, a woman's top Emotional Needs determine how she receives said gestures. If one's top EN is gestures of affection, great, bring home the flowers and jewelry. If it's not, then you're wasting money, effort, and the chance of your marriage succeeding.

And a person's top 5 ENs fluctuate, depending on her/his environment. If the house is well kept up and immaculate, her/his EN for taking care of the home will be low on the list. If it's falling apart like mine is, it can become the #1 EN - as it is for me. EVERY single day I feel grief over a house not kept up. It consumes me. And if my H were to bring home a dozen roses, I would cry. In grief, sadness, and a feeling of hopelessness.

For the first 25 years, he kept giving me clothes, jewelry, perfume, and flowers, because that's what HE wanted me to give HIM. In his mind, if HE wanted it, I should want it too. And, because our houses are constantly in a state of disrepair and he always blamed it on not having good enough tools (yeah, I finally figured out that was a lie), I kept giving him bigger and better tools. It wasn't until I found MB that I figured out what we were doing wrong. I now give him the clothes and the cologne and I ask for tools etc. for MY gifts. Now that DD23 is old enough to help him understand me - and KEEP him from buying me more clothes - I've been getting things I really wanted, for the last few years - weedeater, BBQ pit, etc.

In other words, be smart about how you approach and deal with your partner.


----------



## turnera

"I need some time alone to figure out my feelings" Men's version: I need some time alone.
"Im fine" Men's version: I AM fine; I'm eating cake! Why wouldn't I be fine?
"I love you but im not in-love with you" Men's version: ILYBINILWY - OR I love you! (it's just that I love you and a couple other women I'm screwing)
"We only kissed" Men's version: You're just being paranoid, nothing happened! Is it your time of the month? Let's talk when you're not so emotional.


----------



## ThePheonix

OptimisticPessimist said:


> But a woman never lies in a relationship? No, that is definitely not true.
> 
> If "codespeak" seeks to mislead or subtly present an issue in a way that is not compliant with how she actually feels, its a lie too.


If I wasn't clear, I meant it as woman never lie about a relationship. And I've been a little tongue in cheek. 

But let me confuse it even more. What you hear is her feelings which dictate her reality. When she's done wrong, she presents the information in a way minimize her culpability and makes her feel better about herself. She's not interest in given you clarity or how it affects you. "We only kissed" is not lying because they did kiss. Well the "only" may be. But she's not saying it to protect your feelings. In fact she probably thinks, "if he's that stupid, let him think it". And when she's sleeping with another guy, her interest in you is in the toilet. She says it because "only kissing" is a vision of a gal with the discipline to stop and more dignified than a vision of a gal who went for booty call. She wants to be seen as the gal with discipline and doesn't want to be the one seen as causing and end in the relationship. 

Their view of reality actually fools them. Gals with anorexia see themselves as fat. A gal that's fat prefers you tell them they are not. When she ask, "does these pants make my azz look big" and you say no (you better if you want to get in them) she actually sees her azz smaller.


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## LongWalk

There are few men or women who do not lie to their partners. A diplomatic white lie may be a good thing. Those who reveal everything ugly and humiliating to their partner just because it's true are sadists. How many people do we know who are treated sadistically by the husband or wife?

Cheating is a qualitative leap in sadism and one-upmanship. Is cheating never justified or at least understandable? A man 30-years-married wrote that his wife recently came out to him as a lesbian. Their sex life had never been good, but now he revealed it was permanently over. They had agreed to stay together and remain faithful. In my opinion the wife lied for most if not all of their marriage. She betrayed him. If he has the courage to cheat and cake eat by protecting his emotional state, who can blame him?

This is an example of poor communication that amounts to betrayal akin to infidelity.


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## imjustwatching

If you decide not to divorce , and she cheated for the third time don't come back here because we already told you that gonna happend


----------



## Road Scholar

It's been a long time since I have posted and thought I would sign on to provide an update to all those interested and those that have followed my story and weighed in with their opinions. I guess I'm not doing this for me as much as I'm trying to provide more data back on my situation.

My wife and I are still together and working through this. We go to counseling once in a while but not weekly anymore. We used it as sort of a touch point or barometer to check in with the original therapist we were going to after Dday1. I'm not sure it helps a ton frankly other than to ge another's (professional) opinion. I'm not sure I would refert to her as an infidelity expert, though or Dday2 would not have occurred.

At any point, my wife has been very steady, very consistent, very loving, very remorseful, very tearful, etc. All of it. It's been over a year since DDay2 (9/19/13) and nearly 1 1/2 (5/3/13) years since Dday1. I have made it over a year. I have bounced back and forth since that time often. Between trying to convince myself to stay and trying to convince myself to leave. There are times when I am at peace with it and in love with my wife dearly. There are also times (still) that I push her away and can only focus on how badly she hurt me and her total disregard for me and our family. It's a very sad, very angry place and I question why I'm still with her during those times. 

The bottom line is that I still love her and I very much still love our family. I do not want my kids to experience the pain of our family splitting up ever and I am willing to try my best to make things better. At this point, I don't think I could or would unless she was fully in it 110% and doing everything I think she can to help me and help us stay together. She feels the weight of what she did during that time on her now. I'm not sure when that happened gradually maybe but i'd say probably 3-6 months after it was really over is when the pure remorse was felt.

At this point, I rely heavily on my faith and my belief that people deserve forgiveness when they are truly sorry and realize the mistake they have made. I feel loving each other will help to heal us both and get our relationship to a better place than it was. It has improved in many ways already and as this horrible period of time fades, I can only hope that it continues to grow stronger.

She has taken the initiative to plan many getaways for us, for our family so that we can spend time together and have something to look forward to. Even when I do not necessarily feel like it or want to. She has been very strong because there have been many many times I have pushed her away trying to move on. She continues to fight for us and I am glad ultimately that she does. It helps me to continue fighting for us. I don't feel like I could forgive myself for leaving my family if she was still fighting to keep us together - even though it was her actions that would have caused it. 

At the end of the day, I still feel the hurt, although it is getting better. When I allow it to be my focus, it can become very painful and debilitating. I am still learning how to deal with it. I know when I focus on love and forgiveness we are both in a better place and we have a pretty good chance. When I focus on how ugly she became we are in a very ugly, sad, angry, hurtful place. I feel her love and I know how much she is trying. I continue to try to look forward not backwards and judge her actions today rather than the mistakes she/we have made in the past.

It's not perfect but we are together. Our family is in tact. We have love and respect for each other. And we are trying to improve ourselves and our marriage every day. I am thankful to God for giving us another shot at this. It has taken love, patience, understanding, compassion, strength, and forgiveness to get this far and I'm sure any healthly relationship requires the same ingredients. 

I guess I hope to come through on the other side with a deeper understanding of each other and a deeper love for one another because of the storms we have weathered together and God forbid, if not, I hold my head high knowing I gave it my all and acted with honor and integrity.


----------



## bigfoot

RS,
Your update dredged up a memory for me. I used to know this guy, not real close friend, more of a friend of a friend acquaintance. Anyhow, his wife cheated on him. He went through what you mentioned. He said the same thing about being able to hold his head high and being able to say at least he tried. I didn't want to get in his business, but every time we all were together, the conversation ALWAYS turned to that. I had had enough of my usual, "keep on working", "do what you have to do", "good man", "it must be hard" support stuff I used to say to be polite. 

I asked him these questions (paraphrased as its been a while) (1) was there ever any question about you being honorable or committed to your marriage such that you have to prove anything? (2) Just who are you going to have to tell that you tried and why do you care what they might think? and (3) If you put aside all of that "knights of the round table" honorable thing babble, why exactly are you still putting yourself through this, you won't win any award, no applause, no kudos, just you one day realizing that you put yourself through all of this and for what and for who? (I did use that "knights of the RT" phrase)

Anyhow, he looked at me for a minute, started to get mad, then after a long pause, he said, "I don't know". He then said, "I love her enough to put myself thru this, but she didn't love me enough not to do it to me." I said that he probably would get used to the pain, but questioned was that the life he wanted. 

I don't know if I'm proud of this or not, but within a few months he divorced her. He later told me that divorce didn't stop his hurt, but he hurt differently and then, not at all. He thanked ME?! I was not too sure how to handle that. Your post just brought that back up. Still not sure how I feel about that. I know that he got remarried to someone else, but I haven't spoken to him or our mutual friend in over 10 years. Anyhow, good luck. I would ask you the same questions, but I'm sure that it matters not to your happiness.


----------



## LongWalk

It was very generous of you to come back and update us all. You thread stands out as one the memorable ones on TAM. I listed it in the thread on the best narratives of CWI.

In your absence, you were not forgotten. Often when your mention drew the comment that your reconciliation was false and would fail. I think there were also folks who thought that you would make it and that your wife was sincere.

One of the big points of argument was that you never got a timeline. But either that became unimportant or you resolved that over time.

Is it fair to say that your wife's passion for you made it to a more spiritual level? Maybe you don't feel a need to compete with some dirty affair sex.

One thing I took away from your story is that normal folk can have their lives uprooted by infidelity. You were patient with TAM. 

I am not drinking much vodka these days, but I don't think I could look at that brand again without thinking of your long journey.


----------



## MattMatt

LongWalk said:


> There are few men or women who do not lie to their partners. A diplomatic white lie may be a good thing. Those who reveal everything ugly and humiliating to their partner just because it's true are sadists. How people do we know who are treated sadistically by the husband or wife?
> 
> Cheating is a qualitative leap in sadism and one-upmanship. Is cheating never justified or at least understandable? A man 30-years-married wrote that his wife recently came out to him as a lesbian. Their sex life had never been good, but now he revealed it was permanently over. They had agreed to stay together and remain faithful. In my opinion the wife lied for most if not all of their marriage. She betrayed him. If he has the courage to cheat and cake eat by protecting his emotional state, who can blame him?
> 
> This is an example of poor communication that amounts to betrayal akin to infidelity.


My wife is honest. Sometimes brutally so.

Is she a sadist? No, it's part of her Asperger's Syndrome. I don't think she knows *how* to lie.


----------



## ThePheonix

Road Scholar said:


> I guess I'm not doing this for me as much as I'm trying to provide more data back on my situation.


Road, a barometer of how is relationship is doing is directly proportional to you love life.


----------



## tom67

MattMatt said:


> My wife is honest. Sometimes brutally so.
> 
> Is she a sadist? No, it's part of her Asperger's Syndrome. I don't think she knows *how* to lie.


Matt she is lucky you stayed with her.
One of my favorite English commercials...
Joan Collins & Stephanie Beacham 2012 Snickers Commercial - YouTube


----------



## MEM2020

Road,

Some day, when the kids are grown, you ought write a story about a man and his wife, and the affair that almost broke their marriage.

But that story - needs be gender neutral. Don't say who cheated. Just say their was a betrayal and a recovery. 

---------






Road Scholar said:


> It's been a long time since I have posted and thought I would sign on to provide an update to all those interested and those that have followed my story and weighed in with their opinions. I guess I'm not doing this for me as much as I'm trying to provide more data back on my situation.
> 
> My wife and I are still together and working through this. We go to counseling once in a while but not weekly anymore. We used it as sort of a touch point or barometer to check in with the original therapist we were going to after Dday1. I'm not sure it helps a ton frankly other than to ge another's (professional) opinion. I'm not sure I would refert to her as an infidelity expert, though or Dday2 would not have occurred.
> 
> At any point, my wife has been very steady, very consistent, very loving, very remorseful, very tearful, etc. All of it. It's been over a year since DDay2 (9/19/13) and nearly 1 1/2 (5/3/13) years since Dday1. I have made it over a year. I have bounced back and forth since that time often. Between trying to convince myself to stay and trying to convince myself to leave. There are times when I am at peace with it and in love with my wife dearly. There are also times (still) that I push her away and can only focus on how badly she hurt me and her total disregard for me and our family. It's a very sad, very angry place and I question why I'm still with her during those times.
> 
> The bottom line is that I still love her and I very much still love our family. I do not want my kids to experience the pain of our family splitting up ever and I am willing to try my best to make things better. At this point, I don't think I could or would unless she was fully in it 110% and doing everything I think she can to help me and help us stay together. She feels the weight of what she did during that time on her now. I'm not sure when that happened gradually maybe but i'd say probably 3-6 months after it was really over is when the pure remorse was felt.
> 
> At this point, I rely heavily on my faith and my belief that people deserve forgiveness when they are truly sorry and realize the mistake they have made. I feel loving each other will help to heal us both and get our relationship to a better place than it was. It has improved in many ways already and as this horrible period of time fades, I can only hope that it continues to grow stronger.
> 
> She has taken the initiative to plan many getaways for us, for our family so that we can spend time together and have something to look forward to. Even when I do not necessarily feel like it or want to. She has been very strong because there have been many many times I have pushed her away trying to move on. She continues to fight for us and I am glad ultimately that she does. It helps me to continue fighting for us. I don't feel like I could forgive myself for leaving my family if she was still fighting to keep us together - even though it was her actions that would have caused it.
> 
> At the end of the day, I still feel the hurt, although it is getting better. When I allow it to be my focus, it can become very painful and debilitating. I am still learning how to deal with it. I know when I focus on love and forgiveness we are both in a better place and we have a pretty good chance. When I focus on how ugly she became we are in a very ugly, sad, angry, hurtful place. I feel her love and I know how much she is trying. I continue to try to look forward not backwards and judge her actions today rather than the mistakes she/we have made in the past.
> 
> It's not perfect but we are together. Our family is in tact. We have love and respect for each other. And we are trying to improve ourselves and our marriage every day. I am thankful to God for giving us another shot at this. It has taken love, patience, understanding, compassion, strength, and forgiveness to get this far and I'm sure any healthly relationship requires the same ingredients.
> 
> I guess I hope to come through on the other side with a deeper understanding of each other and a deeper love for one another because of the storms we have weathered together and God forbid, if not, I hold my head high knowing I gave it my all and acted with honor and integrity.


----------



## warlock07

Atleast, it sounds like she is currently committed to R and doing everything she can to fix it ..

After infidelity, any certainty is a good thing..even if she might not be doing it right all the time.

Good luck. I hope it ends up well for you.


----------



## MEM2020

Road,

I wish to add a contrary point of view to Bigfoots post.

Your W treats you better than she did pre affair. Because she truly is remorseful. 

Early on, she was minimizing and I wasn't optimistic. She said she was sorry, but didn't really seem to be. 

But as time passed, and she fell back in love with you, she realized how bad what she did was. 

Resilience is a beautiful thing. 





Road Scholar said:


> It's been a long time since I have posted and thought I would sign on to provide an update to all those interested and those that have followed my story and weighed in with their opinions. I guess I'm not doing this for me as much as I'm trying to provide more data back on my situation.
> 
> My wife and I are still together and working through this. We go to counseling once in a while but not weekly anymore. We used it as sort of a touch point or barometer to check in with the original therapist we were going to after Dday1. I'm not sure it helps a ton frankly other than to ge another's (professional) opinion. I'm not sure I would refert to her as an infidelity expert, though or Dday2 would not have occurred.
> 
> At any point, my wife has been very steady, very consistent, very loving, very remorseful, very tearful, etc. All of it. It's been over a year since DDay2 (9/19/13) and nearly 1 1/2 (5/3/13) years since Dday1. I have made it over a year. I have bounced back and forth since that time often. Between trying to convince myself to stay and trying to convince myself to leave. There are times when I am at peace with it and in love with my wife dearly. There are also times (still) that I push her away and can only focus on how badly she hurt me and her total disregard for me and our family. It's a very sad, very angry place and I question why I'm still with her during those times.
> 
> The bottom line is that I still love her and I very much still love our family. I do not want my kids to experience the pain of our family splitting up ever and I am willing to try my best to make things better. At this point, I don't think I could or would unless she was fully in it 110% and doing everything I think she can to help me and help us stay together. She feels the weight of what she did during that time on her now. I'm not sure when that happened gradually maybe but i'd say probably 3-6 months after it was really over is when the pure remorse was felt.
> 
> At this point, I rely heavily on my faith and my belief that people deserve forgiveness when they are truly sorry and realize the mistake they have made. I feel loving each other will help to heal us both and get our relationship to a better place than it was. It has improved in many ways already and as this horrible period of time fades, I can only hope that it continues to grow stronger.
> 
> She has taken the initiative to plan many getaways for us, for our family so that we can spend time together and have something to look forward to. Even when I do not necessarily feel like it or want to. She has been very strong because there have been many many times I have pushed her away trying to move on. She continues to fight for us and I am glad ultimately that she does. It helps me to continue fighting for us. I don't feel like I could forgive myself for leaving my family if she was still fighting to keep us together - even though it was her actions that would have caused it.
> 
> At the end of the day, I still feel the hurt, although it is getting better. When I allow it to be my focus, it can become very painful and debilitating. I am still learning how to deal with it. I know when I focus on love and forgiveness we are both in a better place and we have a pretty good chance. When I focus on how ugly she became we are in a very ugly, sad, angry, hurtful place. I feel her love and I know how much she is trying. I continue to try to look forward not backwards and judge her actions today rather than the mistakes she/we have made in the past.
> 
> It's not perfect but we are together. Our family is in tact. We have love and respect for each other. And we are trying to improve ourselves and our marriage every day. I am thankful to God for giving us another shot at this. It has taken love, patience, understanding, compassion, strength, and forgiveness to get this far and I'm sure any healthly relationship requires the same ingredients.
> 
> I guess I hope to come through on the other side with a deeper understanding of each other and a deeper love for one another because of the storms we have weathered together and God forbid, if not, I hold my head high knowing I gave it my all and acted with honor and integrity.


----------



## ConanHub

Dude. Had some time on my hands saw this thread and read it.

All I can say is you are maybe the kind of guy that settles for less. I am not trying to offend just speaking truth. If you are satisfied, then that is all that should matter to you. I am not the kind of guy that will put up with less. I couldn't stand to be you. I could live through being cheated on, I would divorce immediately and she knows it.

My wife has not cheated on me but she is always honest and gives me any information I want. I reciprocate. I get the benefit of super hot "affair" sex without any betrayal. I give her super loving/ gentle sex as well. Give and take.

What I have, is quite honestly, better and I am not even including your WW affair. If I need something from my wife to help me and make our marriage continue, she gives it without hesitation.

I sincerely hope she has "killed" that lying, cheating, wh$re that she became and the world never sees her again.

I am still flabbergasted that you told her what you needed and she gave you the finger!

To each their own.....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LongWalk

Conan,

Is it possible that RS's wife is genuinely remorseful and moreover is a better person than she was before cheating?


----------



## ConanHub

LongWalk said:


> Conan,
> 
> Is it possible that RS's wife is genuinely remorseful and moreover is a better person than she was before cheating?


I think she is "genuine" enough for RS. For other BS , her behavior probably would not have been close enough to remorse.

Like I said, there has been no cheating from my wife and she gives me far more than than RS's wife on a daily basis. That is why I know he is settling for less. Seems like he is o.k. with it so to each their own. 

I expect,get and give far more in my marriage. It would probably be the start of the end of my 23 year relationship with Mrs. Conan if she treated me the way RS's wife treated him and I am not even referring to the infidelity.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ConanHub

I am also disturbed that they are building such a shaky foundation for their"new" marriage.

He has made an extremely reasonable request of her for the truth. He didn't even expose after D-Day 2 or blow up her "executive" who was taking charge of her body.

All he wanted from her was to be allowed some knowledge to help him piece a year of his life together that she already had full knowledge of.

She basically said "F YOU!" and bought him off with what she decided he deserved.

Maybe she is becoming a better person? Even without the infidelity, this woman would not be attractive to me.

Marriage, to me and my wife, is far more.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LongWalk

Is it possible that woman can love her BH and want to save her marriage while still having pleasant private memories of her AP?

Is is possible to eradicate the OM from a WW's memories?


----------



## ConanHub

Question 1. Sure. But it shows a lingering emotional commitment to the POS and on some level, it is a continuing betrayal of her husband and children. To still have pleasant thoughts of someone callous enough to help destroy her family, doesn't appear remorseful to me.

Question 2. I don't think anyone ever forgets infidelity on either side. However, a changed woman wishes she could forget because she is now revolted by what she allowed herself to become.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sammy3

Op, 

I'm on the other side of the fence. I'm the bs. Ww h has really changed in sooo many ways. Has really proven himself to be the man he wants to be for me. Has done things now that no other man ever will do for me. Taken on things with my aging father than no other spouse would ever do for another. Has been there in ways I cant even begin to explain, but has shown how truly sorry he is that he has ever hurt me, or what we had together. I see it in so many ways. Strangely, I believe no one will ever love me the way he really does...

He see how anal he has been in life and only wants to make my life so much better. Will now crawl over glass to make "my life" a better life, with or without him in it... not for him to return to me, but to make my life a full and fulling life. He truly does love me, & and I do him, But... the drawback, I cant be sexual with him... The 3 person changed it all. Maybe this is what happened w your wife. It just changed it all... Sadly, when a 3rd person came between us, that ghost lives on, and will always live on, your wife will always have the memories of the OM , how it was with him, she strayed for some reason.

I know if it were me that did so, the one that strayed and had to live with that each and everyday, had to have that in my life, looking at my bs, and living with, asking for forgiveness everyday day from now until eternity, I really don't know if I could go back into the relationship, no matter how forgiving my my spouse was, because I would be different too, it all changes us all so much... but this is just me... 

It's all just so different now, no matter how much we love each other, we are now just different people than we were before the affair no matter what. 

~sammy


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## clipclop2

I don't buy that answer to question 1. I still have the occasional good memory of the guy who abused me as a child. That's because there were some good times. It doesn't show any sort of lingering commitment. It is just a part of my past with this guy, all of which was not bad.

2. Not without a brain injury.


----------



## larry.gray

LongWalk said:


> Is it possible that woman can love her BH and want to save her marriage while still having pleasant private memories of her AP?


Isn't that the fear of every BS trying to reconcile? The way I see it, the only way for a BS to not feel in second place is to know for certain that his WS has turned those memories into disgust.

For those with prior sexual experience, we can look back on those early events fondly. If you're happy now, they're not thought of often, but you can recall them and they are happy memories. Since they aren't the cause of intense hurt to your spouse, they are "OK" to have. 

It's not a stretch for a BS to think the WS may have the same type of memories of the AP.



LongWalk said:


> Is is possible to eradicate the OM from a WW's memories?


Nope, simply not possible. But it is possible to have a WS that looks back on them with pain and regret.


----------



## LongWalk

Can a cheater come to feel greater remorse over the affair, yes, for the pain it causes their spouse. Can they conclude that AP was a bad immoral person? To some degree. However, if someone had a colleague whom they knew well and felt was good and responsible person, it may not be entirely possible. There have been more than one BH whose wife had an affair with a criminal or drug addict. Everyone points to that to condemn the affair, but it is possible that an AP is an upright person other than the affair. That cannot be rewritten.

As to the affair sex, a WS can say that they wish they had not done it, but to re cast it all a disgusting may not be possible. is it possible that the reconciling WS does not have the same level of passion for their BS? Yes, that is not uncommon. They may wish that it were not so. It may be that over time they will restore eros to their relationship. There is no guarantee in this.

One thing is certain, a BS who is packing and on their way out has better chance of passionate sex than a beaten down rug sweeper who is grateful for a hug from the the wayward.

I don't want to take any rides at amusement parks. They all cause nausea today, but they were fun when I was a kid.


----------



## ConanHub

clipclop2 said:


> I don't buy that answer to question 1. I still have the occasional good memory of the guy who abused me as a child. That's because there were some good times. It doesn't show any sort of lingering commitment. It is just a part of my past with this guy, all of which was not bad.
> 
> 2. Not without a brain injury.


I don't think that is a good comparison. An affair partner is a betrayal of spouse and children, someone that helped you deeply harm your family.

Having good thoughts about an affair partner after R is really established is kind of sick.


----------



## ConanHub

LongWalk said:


> Can a cheater come to feel greater remorse over the affair, yes, for the pain it causes their spouse. Can they conclude that AP was a bad immoral person? To some degree. However, if someone had a colleague whom they knew well and felt was good and responsible person, it may not be entirely possible. There have been more than one BH whose wife had an affair with a criminal or drug addict. Everyone points to that to condemn the affair, but it is possible that an AP is an upright person other than the affair. That cannot be rewritten.
> 
> As to the affair sex, a WS can say that they wish they had not done it, but to re cast it all a disgusting may not be possible. is it possible that the reconciling WS does not have the same level of passion for their BS? Yes, that is not uncommon. They may wish that it were not so. It may be that over time they will restore eros to their relationship. There is no guarantee in this.
> 
> One thing is certain, a BS who is packing and on their way out has better chance of passionate sex than a beaten down rug sweeper who is grateful for a hug from the the wayward.
> 
> I don't want to take any rides at amusement parks. They all cause nausea today, but they were fun when I was a kid.


The disgust should always set in when remorse is true.

The sex and romance were very pleasurable in the affair. Reconciling does not take the pleasure away.

What R does is set the affair sex and romance in the light of truth instead of fantasy. That is that while taking that pleasure, the WS was harming their spouse and family.

Anyone who realizes they are getting orgasms by harming those that love them and depend on them the most, is deranged.

The memory becomes unpleasant for the remorseful because the way they were getting off was destroying their spouse and children.

Good, thoughtful questions Long.


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## 3putt

ConanHub said:


> The disgust should always set in when remorse is true.
> 
> The sex and romance were very pleasurable in the affair. Reconciling does not take the pleasure away.
> 
> What R does is set the affair sex and romance in the light of truth instead of fantasy. That is that while taking that pleasure, the WS was harming their spouse and family.
> 
> Anyone who realizes they are getting orgasms by harming those that love them and depend on them the most, is deranged.
> 
> The memory becomes unpleasant for the remorseful because the way they were getting off was destroying their spouse and children.
> 
> Good, thoughtful questions Long.


This is why full nuclear exposure is so vital. It helps speed up that process. When the WS sees and hears the level of destruction that their actions have caused from the ones they respect the most (not just the BS), it burns off that affair fog pretty quickly and obliterates all those warm, fuzzy, fantasy feelings. It exposes their actions for the true sleaze it is.


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## LongWalk

Everyone agrees that a drastic response makes a big difference. Without consequences why should anyone break off an affair?

The BS will give the WS hell for a certain period of time; that is natural. Eventually, the BS cannot relentlessly chew out and abuse the wayward. There will be no reconciliation if the relationship is just an endless downer.

From RS's last post it seems that part of the hangover from the affair is that he had trouble liking her. She worked to fix that. Perhaps, though if she had been forthcoming with timeline, it would have gone faster. Alternatively, there might have been too many mind movies.


----------



## barbados

I am just going to assume he never got a timeline. Never saw it mentioned in his posts. (If he did then I apologize now and stand corrected)

RS has settled, but its his life and his call. I can only hope that he finds true peace, and that his WW realizes how lucky she is.


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## clipclop2

Asking a former wayward to turn every thought of their affair partner to disgust might very well be asking them to be dishonest. And this honesty in a wayward is not a good thing.

I think it's unrealistic to expect it though it's not unrealistic or unusual to want it.

This is the part of reconciliation that I find very difficult to support because what people are asking for is just against human nature. Most people aren't all good or all bad. And wanting that splitting someone black and white where the affair partner suddenly becomes evil incarnate is just not reality in the vast majority of cases. If that were the case then the wayward should be black all the time because after all they were the one in the affair.

I think it makes a lot more sense for a way to work to actively choose the spouse as the better person and person they want the way as opposed to turn against the affair partner because they are the s*** of the earth. That's not much of a choice is it. It certainly isn't because the spouse is the greatest person on the planet because anyone would be better than the affair partner. You want the person to pick you because you are the right person for them.

Sadly this is why I know I could never reconcile. I don't do mind games and lying to myself very well. So if I were required to have my husband decide that the affair partner was the most horrible person in the world and it was not factually based than I couldn't do it. Believing something because you want to believe it because it's true.


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## clipclop2

Conan, I'mguessing you have never been sexually abused as a child. Not a good comparison? If I can remember good things because they were good and they did happen, and know that the most terrible things also occurred it is because I can't as much as it would be helpful to me, cannot rewrite history.

I think you are out of your league in terms of experience here if you can say that remembering an AP in any good light as sick. If I can remember the truth of my past as both good and bad it is healthy, not sick. Same for anyone else. You can regret your own behavior but to paint another as all black because it makes someone else feel better is a lie... unless the AP was truly a total scum.

In which case the cheater isn't much better.

You can't have it both ways.

That same AP might be here trying to make up for what they have done. After time TAM might really around them trying to help them recover their marriage. 

Think about it.

These are not islands. These are real people and we can support each of them here on TAM. How can we do that if the AP is always scrum?


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## ConanHub

clipclop2 said:


> Conan, I'mguessing you have never been sexually abused as a child. Not a good comparison? If I can remember good things because they were good and they did happen, and know that the most terrible things also occurred it is because I can't as much as it would be helpful to me, cannot rewrite history.
> 
> I think you are out of your league in terms of experience here if you can say that remembering an AP in any good light as sick. If I can remember the truth of my past as both good and bad it is healthy, not sick. Same for anyone else. You can regret your own behavior but to paint another as all black because it makes someone else feel better is a lie... unless the AP was truly a total scum.
> 
> In which case the cheater isn't much better.
> 
> You can't have it both ways.
> 
> That same AP might be here trying to make up for what they have done. After time TAM might really around them trying to help them recover their marriage.
> 
> Think about it.
> 
> These are not islands. These are real people and we can support each of them here on TAM. How can we do that if the AP is always scrum?


Be careful of assumptions. I am a csa survivor. Years of torment that I am still trying to overcome at age 43. Being abused as a child is not a good comparison to infidelity.

Just my input on men who knowingly sleep with married women. They are most certainly scum and, if it were legal, I would gladly put them out of their misery. Any man that thinks his crotch is more important than a whole family is a waste of skin.

They could become better, healthier people. I sincerely hope they do. 

Also, any woman that stops controlling her crotch and lets her crotch control her, over the symbolic corpses of her husband and children, is also a waste of skin. I sincerely hope everyone of them become better, healthier people.

As far as black and white, good and evil, I am well studied.

I was and am a bold person. When the people that hurt me and my sisters and my mom were doing their business, I looked directly in their eyes. I saw little logic or thought. It was simple lust that was unrestrained. Talk all you want about how these people also did good in their lives, how they gave to charity, returned their library books, never got a speeding ticket.....whatever. 

It will never undo the pathetic sound a little girl makes when a man is forcing himself into her, it will never undo the sounds my mom was trying not to make as she was being raped 4 feet from were I lay. Sorry to everyone for posting this but sexual assault and child abuse is not a good comparison to infidelity.

People can change. Good people can become selfish disgusting people and they can change back. I will always hope that those who have sunk very low will regret their state and resolve to become better.


----------



## clipclop2

I'm sorry you experienced what you did. I'm also sad that you have not healed more.

I dont feel your perspective is healthy though I definitely know why it is as it is.


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## ConanHub

clipclop2 said:


> I'm sorry you experienced what you did. I'm also sad that you have not healed more.
> 
> I dont feel your perspective is healthy though I definitely know why it is as it is.


I appreciate your compassion. We all have to judge what is and is not healthy.

I have zero tolerance for truly sh!tty behavior. Infidelity makes my top 5 in that list but is certainly not the top. I call a spade a spade and my intolerance of sh!t has saved many individuals over the years and kept me from wasting my time with relationships that are going nowhere.

One very clear lesson I have learned in life is that if you don't stop a bad guy he will do bad things. Simple. Part of being able to stop something bad from happening is to recognize what it looks like.

I might not have been able to stop what was going on for several years but at 14 I was able to save my 13 year old sister from being strangled and raped because I could see it coming a day ahead of time. No one else did. My mom, my pastor, deacons, friends and neighbors, all of them were oblivious to the monster walking with us. I saw him for what he was long before he ,made his move on my sister and I knew a day before he attacked her what he was going to do.

If my mother had not screamed her lungs out at me, that SCUM would not be breathing today.

I will admit that I still have a lot of healing to do but anger at sh!tty behavior and a willingness to call it out and do something to correct or prevent it is pretty healthy in my book.

I see so much suffering because people get hung up on empty philosophy. When someone is screwing someone's wife, he is scum. When a woman is doing her ap, she is scum too.

It is not hard. People can and do get better. I just happen to be an individual that people seriously rethink doing something crappy around. 

You certainly have your own definition of healthy and that is fine.
We all have to live by our decisions. There are a lot of people in my life that are glad that I deal with things the way I do.


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## clipclop2

Acting against bad things is necessary but being able to see that the same brush you wish to paint the AP with must be applied to the WS is only fair. The problem with the high standard is that it leaves few waywards the grace for reconciliation when it might be possible. Rigidity is great for self protection but lousy for human relationships. Most people are betrayed in small ways by people they love but they forgive. An affair is a huge assault. But people have proven that it can be overcome. That is impossible of people have to paint someone else black to fit some ideal that isn't necessarily based on reality. To do that they could never forgive themselves because they are the same as the AP only worse as it was THEM who risks their spouse and children.


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## ConanHub

We just see the world a little differently. I absolutely agree that people can overcome infidelity. A core issue in overcoming infidelity is for the WS to change. They cannot remain the same and renew or heal their marriage. The reason they have to change is they have allowed themselves to become something bad. They could sell all the girl scout cookies in the world and they would still be bad for being unfaithful. Until they change, they are still murdering their family.

The WS is an inside enemy to their own marriage and family. If they change, they can help to restore their marriage.

The AP is an outside enemy of the marriage and should change but can do nothing to repair the damage, just disappearing and never bothering the particular family they helped to harm is about the best they can accomplish.

Maybe you function well seeing people as more grey than black and white. I do not. I don't believe anyone is really that good to begin with and I do agree with you about forgiveness. We all do crappy little things that we need to be changing on a daily basis and forgiving each other when we fall short.

When someone does something so purposely evil and harmful as infidelity, it takes a little more than a simple course correction and a sorry. It takes a core change. A WS has allowed corruption to infuse who they are to their very center. It takes becoming a new person to fix the situation because the corrupt person they allowed themselves to become is not only worthless to marriage and family, they have become the predator of their own family.

I just rambled, I'm afraid. Clip, you and I may not disagree all that much, we may just view the world a little differently.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ConanHub

ClipClop. Had a couple of glasses of O.J. and my brain woke up.

Our original disagreement was about a fws looking back on their infidelity with pleasurable, good, warm thoughts.

I claim that is still a betrayal, you are saying no.

You claim to have good memories of someone in your childhood that abused you. How about your abuser?

If you forgave your abuser and are in a relationship with them now, how would it make you feel if your former abuser still remembered with pleasure, warmth, and goodness about the times they were sexually abusing you?

How about if they liked thinking about the good old days so much that they still pleasured themselves while remembering how much they enjoyed you sexually as a child?

If someone has really changed, they will not look back on when they were severely harming someone with anything except revulsion.

Worse... A remorseful wayward has to remember a time when they were seriously enjoying harming their spouse and family and possibly friends.

My point is that someone can not be truly remorseful about hurting you if they still enjoy remembering when they were hurting you.

I do not see how any decent and loving spouse could look back on when they were destroying their family with anything but horror and disgust. Their AP was someone that will be forever tarnished in a fws mind because, even if an AP does change to become a better person, the fws will never know because NC is essential to help the marriage heal. The memories of how much the WS and the AP enjoyed harming the betrayed family are honestly enough to drive many remorseful waywards to self harm or attempt suicide!

I actually feel compassion for a remorseful WS. Full of true regret and remorse, they are tormented by their memories, not happy to recall, not warm or good.

Someone who has changed will not look back on their evil deeds, no matter how much they enjoyed those deeds at the time, with anything but shame, regret, horror, disgust and rage directed towards themselves and their AP.


----------



## clipclop2

In the case of infidelity the "abuser" role is the AP. The situation involves two consenting adults. 

I do not have a relationship with my abuser and have no idea what he thinks but I do wish you were a bit more careful with your language. It doesnt trigger me but it might others.

Black and white and shades of grey: no, I'm not more comfortable with grey. I have to remind myself that people are generally grey not because it is easier for me but because for me to be a good person, I have to remember that we are ALL human and fallible. We are all capable of good and evil. Most people who cheat are not also evil in all other aspects of their lives.

Some are.

Most have a selfish streak. Sometimes other shared characteristics. Not always though.

It is easy to look back and say you could see it coming. But plenty of spoiled brats manage to avoid cheating somehow. Why? Who knows.

Back to the idea that ANY good memory is a betrayal. How about thoughts the BS has of screwing someone else either before or after the cheating is known? They are thoughts. Not memories. But what if they linger on them? Actively fantasies about them?

A piece of the past floats through your mind like any other thought. It was a good moment. You can dwell on it or not. Dwelling on the good parts of an affair is active. Acknowledging the AP isn't all bad is most likely just being honest.

Be careful painting people all black. One day that brush may fall upon you.

It isn't easy esp for abuse victims. I know that very well. But I think it is an important part of healing. It is also an important part of raising a family. Teaching kids how to think critically involves a whole lot of grey. 

well I've enjoyed discussing this with you especially that it could turn into something really heated and hasn't. 

I think that's because in general we are on the same side. I just wish it were easier for people to be good and I sure wish it were easier to forgive. Because it's darn difficult.


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## ConanHub

clipclop2 said:


> Dwelling on the good parts of an affair is active.


I do not think that a WS or AP is necessarily totally evil. They have become scumbags but not total monsters. 

It is quotes like the above that make my head spin around and pea soup spew out!

Is there really anything good about infidelity?

I don't think so.

Anyway, I agree about a good discussion. Duty calls. Talk at you later.


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## farsidejunky

*Re: Re: No sex after her affair...*



ConanHub said:


> Is there really anything good about infidelity?
> 
> I don't think so.


The only thing positive that comes out of infidelity is the opportunity to grow, just like any other challenge or setback life may throw at you.


----------



## sidney2718

LongWalk said:


> Is it possible that woman can love her BH and want to save her marriage while still having pleasant private memories of her AP?


Yes.



> Is is possible to eradicate the OM from a WW's memories?


I strongly doubt it. In fact they may be retained as very special memories.


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## Horizon

sidney2718 said:


> Yes.
> 
> 
> 
> I strongly doubt it. In fact they may be retained as very special memories.


Quite right - after all the post affair torment and year long sex drought I laughed when I discovered that my ex WS had bought herself a "little helper". All the BS about having lost the desire and having demons blah blah blah. And who was on her mind when she was playing with her new toy? One guess. Thank God I don't have to endure that holding pattern any longer.


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## arbitrator

LongWalk said:


> It must be terrible looking at a wife's intimate parts and feeling, "yeah, but OM has been there, too, and got an enthusiastic reception." Must really kill an erection.


*For some of us, the WW's affair(s) was/were totally oblvious to us. I lovingly went down on her and loved her not even thinking that there were any OM anywhere.

Now I visualize those parts of hers and revile in total disgust because I was so trustingly stupid!*


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## Road Scholar

ConanHub said:


> Dude. Had some time on my hands saw this thread and read it.
> 
> All I can say is you are maybe the kind of guy that settles for less. I am not trying to offend just speaking truth. If you are satisfied, then that is all that should matter to you. I am not the kind of guy that will put up with less. I couldn't stand to be you. I could live through being cheated on, I would divorce immediately and she knows it.
> 
> My wife has not cheated on me but she is always honest and gives me any information I want. I reciprocate. I get the benefit of super hot "affair" sex without any betrayal. I give her super loving/ gentle sex as well. Give and take.
> 
> What I have, is quite honestly, better and I am not even including your WW affair. If I need something from my wife to help me and make our marriage continue, she gives it without hesitation.
> 
> I sincerely hope she has "killed" that lying, cheating, wh$re that she became and the world never sees her again.
> 
> I am still flabbergasted that you told her what you needed and she gave you the finger!
> 
> To each their own.....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Conan (I assume from the movie Conan the Barbarian) I wasn't going to reply to this but changed my mind. 

Who do you think you are? You are not even qualified to be giving advice on this site. You haven't lived through infidelity and have absolutely no idea how you would respond. Believe me I would have responded exactly like you did. I would've walked out the door if I found out my wife was cheating on me. Until it happened. Maybe you are different because your #1 priority is you. That changed for me when I had kids. Their happiness is something I hold sacred, to them happiness = our family.

I don't know why someone that isn't going through infidelity or hasn't gone through it would be lurking on this site other than to pump himself up by looking at others at a time of weakness and pain. I personally think that you feel better by seeing others weakness and it helps you convince yourself how superior you are. It is really interesting to me that you are here and I question why and why you would question my choice. But believe me you are not qualified and have no idea what you're talking about. You are entitled to your opinion but it's worthless to me and to others here unless you lived what we have. 

I would not presume to tell you what to do with the situation you lived through or how to deal with it - and I am very sorry for what you have lived through and had to endure. Noone should have to deal with that. I'm sure it has shaped the person you are today - both good and bad. But seriously do others on this site a favor and don't post your BS opinions here because to others that are more impressionable than I you could have a detrimental effect on their lives.

One can walk away from a life together and blow it up or one can try to salvage the life you knew - knowing that all people (even you I would bet) f*uck up from time to time. You are full of false bravado because you haven't been tested by this. You have not been confronted with having to make the choice between continuing to fight for your family and your children and thinking of only yourself. It's a choice I was forced to make. My decision was to fight for others instead of myself, my kids and my wife included. For me it's is the right choice. I know this and so far it has worked out. It hasn't been easy, but I fight on. I know fighting through this has made me a better person and makes me a better person for doing it. I think it would be easier to run for the hills, but the pain would still be there. It allows her to become a better person and for my kids to have a family that they deserve. I choose family over self. I have granted her forgiveness because I see the remorse and pain it has caused - to both of us. Yes, through the grace of God that has been possible. Through the grace of God, we will heal together and be stronger. Her remorse and commitment and my love and compassion have allowed for us to rebuild something from the ashes, something that is far far better for her, for me, and for our kids. I doubt you can comprehend that sort of selflessness, but that's my choice and what I choose. 

As someone else posted resilience is a great thing.

I don't know what caused it all to happen, but I know I contributed to some degree through my own faults, immaturity, ignorance of what it took to make a good relationship. I don't blame myself nor does she blame me, but there were contributing factors. I'm secure enough to be able to look at myself and know my strengths and my weakness and know that while I am a good man, I am not perfect. I know she is a good person too and made horrible decisions which caused a tremendous amount of pain for me and for her. We have another chance to make it right and we are making the most of it as others here have successfully.

All I can say is that you are not immune from this so don't think for a second you are. I don't wish it upon my worst enemy. 

Peace TAM and thank you all.


----------



## ConanHub

Hey Road. You got me wrong. Your marriage dynamic is unhealthy and I'm not even referring to the infidelity. You asked her for an extremely reasonable concession to help you move forward with your marriage.

She did worse than say no, she ignored you. She has given you what she has determined will pacify you and what she is willing to give. What about the next time, not talking about cheating, you need something to improve your marriage or grow closer? She knows you well enough to ignore your requests and placate you however she likes.

If the situation were reversed, I would say the same of you.

It us a very unhealthy way to rebuild your marriage. It may cause more trouble for you down the line. I sincerely hope not.

Best wishes.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

Well said RS.

Your measured self confidence and humility must make a difference. If your wife did or does have some pleasant memories of her time OM, your reconciliation is clearly much more important to her life in every respect.

From what you write your experiences in reconciliation are profoundly deeper than the carnal or emotional high of the affair.

If there were some metaphor, your wife left home to enjoy something illicit but on the journey back in the dark she saw the warm yellow light and sprinted harder and faster to get back inside before you locked the door forever. Once she came home, there was a mess to resolve. But she doesn't sit at the window longing to run off again.

RS, have you been able to take your improved self confidence and open communication to improve your sex life? Whatever happened with OM happened, but you no longer find yourself eaten up inside by it. Pardon me for this nosy question but it is the title of your thread.


----------



## ConanHub

P.S. As for my BS opinion. How do you know that I'm just not a lot smarter than you when it comes to marriage? Just a poke back!&#55357;&#56841;
Take care!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020

Road,

She changed jobs, went total NC with the OM, and fell back in love with you. 

The extra things she does to show you love, those are what matters. Those actions show remorse....

Sadly, there are a lot of folks on here who are WAY more focused on punishment than rehabilitation. 





QUOTE=Road Scholar;10612714]Conan (I assume from the movie Conan the Barbarian) I wasn't going to reply to this but changed my mind. 

Who do you think you are? You are not even qualified to be giving advice on this site. You haven't lived through infidelity and have absolutely no idea how you would respond. Believe me I would have responded exactly like you did. I would've walked out the door if I found out my wife was cheating on me. Until it happened. Maybe you are different because your #1 priority is you. That changed for me when I had kids. Their happiness is something I hold sacred, to them happiness = our family.

I don't know why someone that isn't going through infidelity or hasn't gone through it would be lurking on this site other than to pump himself up by looking at others at a time of weakness and pain. I personally think that you feel better by seeing others weakness and it helps you convince yourself how superior you are. It is really interesting to me that you are here and I question why and why you would question my choice. But believe me you are not qualified and have no idea what you're talking about. You are entitled to your opinion but it's worthless to me and to others here unless you lived what we have. 

I would not presume to tell you what to do with the situation you lived through or how to deal with it - and I am very sorry for what you have lived through and had to endure. Noone should have to deal with that. I'm sure it has shaped the person you are today - both good and bad. But seriously do others on this site a favor and don't post your BS opinions here because to others that are more impressionable than I you could have a detrimental effect on their lives.

One can walk away from a life together and blow it up or one can try to salvage the life you knew - knowing that all people (even you I would bet) f*uck up from time to time. You are full of false bravado because you haven't been tested by this. You have not been confronted with having to make the choice between continuing to fight for your family and your children and thinking of only yourself. It's a choice I was forced to make. My decision was to fight for others instead of myself, my kids and my wife included. For me it's is the right choice. I know this and so far it has worked out. It hasn't been easy, but I fight on. I know fighting through this has made me a better person and makes me a better person for doing it. I think it would be easier to run for the hills, but the pain would still be there. It allows her to become a better person and for my kids to have a family that they deserve. I choose family over self. I have granted her forgiveness because I see the remorse and pain it has caused - to both of us. Yes, through the grace of God that has been possible. Through the grace of God, we will heal together and be stronger. Her remorse and commitment and my love and compassion have allowed for us to rebuild something from the ashes, something that is far far better for her, for me, and for our kids. I doubt you can comprehend that sort of selflessness, but that's my choice and what I choose. 

As someone else posted resilience is a great thing.

I don't know what caused it all to happen, but I know I contributed to some degree through my own faults, immaturity, ignorance of what it took to make a good relationship. I don't blame myself nor does she blame me, but there were contributing factors. I'm secure enough to be able to look at myself and know my strengths and my weakness and know that while I am a good man, I am not perfect. I know she is a good person too and made horrible decisions which caused a tremendous amount of pain for me and for her. We have another chance to make it right and we are making the most of it as others here have successfully.

All I can say is that you are not immune from this so don't think for a second you are. I don't wish it upon my worst enemy. 

Peace TAM and thank you all.[/QUOTE]


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## ConanHub

Asking for a timeline is punishment? I AM NOT REFERRING TO THE INFIDELITY! I am glad for Road and his family. The shaky foundation statement stands. I sincerely hope they encounter no more serious issue. She could strengthen their marriage by honoring his request. It is that simple.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

While asking for the timeline is legit, it is up to RS to decide whether or not it is a deal breaker.

There are not so many marriages that survive Dday2, busting a false R. Matt and Mrs Matthias is one. They still struggle.


----------



## 2asdf2

Road Scholar said:


> Conan (I assume from the movie Conan the Barbarian) I wasn't going to reply to this but changed my mind.
> 
> Who do you think you are? You are not even qualified to be giving advice on this site. You haven't lived through infidelity and have absolutely no idea how you would respond. Believe me I would have responded exactly like you did. I would've walked out the door if I found out my wife was cheating on me. Until it happened. Maybe you are different because your #1 priority is you. That changed for me when I had kids. Their happiness is something I hold sacred, to them happiness = our family.
> 
> I don't know why someone that isn't going through infidelity or hasn't gone through it would be lurking on this site other than to pump himself up by looking at others at a time of weakness and pain. I personally think that you feel better by seeing others weakness and it helps you convince yourself how superior you are. It is really interesting to me that you are here and I question why and why you would question my choice. But believe me you are not qualified and have no idea what you're talking about. You are entitled to your opinion but it's worthless to me and to others here unless you lived what we have.
> 
> I would not presume to tell you what to do with the situation you lived through or how to deal with it - and I am very sorry for what you have lived through and had to endure. Noone should have to deal with that. I'm sure it has shaped the person you are today - both good and bad. But seriously do others on this site a favor and don't post your BS opinions here because to others that are more impressionable than I you could have a detrimental effect on their lives.
> 
> One can walk away from a life together and blow it up or one can try to salvage the life you knew - knowing that all people (even you I would bet) f*uck up from time to time. You are full of false bravado because you haven't been tested by this. You have not been confronted with having to make the choice between continuing to fight for your family and your children and thinking of only yourself. It's a choice I was forced to make. My decision was to fight for others instead of myself, my kids and my wife included. For me it's is the right choice. I know this and so far it has worked out. It hasn't been easy, but I fight on. I know fighting through this has made me a better person and makes me a better person for doing it. I think it would be easier to run for the hills, but the pain would still be there. It allows her to become a better person and for my kids to have a family that they deserve. I choose family over self. I have granted her forgiveness because I see the remorse and pain it has caused - to both of us. Yes, through the grace of God that has been possible. Through the grace of God, we will heal together and be stronger. Her remorse and commitment and my love and compassion have allowed for us to rebuild something from the ashes, something that is far far better for her, for me, and for our kids. I doubt you can comprehend that sort of selflessness, but that's my choice and what I choose.
> 
> As someone else posted resilience is a great thing.
> 
> I don't know what caused it all to happen, but I know I contributed to some degree through my own faults, immaturity, ignorance of what it took to make a good relationship. I don't blame myself nor does she blame me, but there were contributing factors. I'm secure enough to be able to look at myself and know my strengths and my weakness and know that while I am a good man, I am not perfect. I know she is a good person too and made horrible decisions which caused a tremendous amount of pain for me and for her. We have another chance to make it right and we are making the most of it as others here have successfully.
> 
> All I can say is that you are not immune from this so don't think for a second you are. I don't wish it upon my worst enemy.
> 
> Peace TAM and thank you all.


Good for you RS!!!!

The kind of senseless attack like you have had reveals a whole lot about the attacker. 

I don't like one ounce of what it reveals.


----------



## Road Scholar

LongWalk said:


> Well said RS.
> 
> RS, have you been able to take your improved self confidence and open communication to improve your sex life? Whatever happened with OM happened, but you no longer find yourself eaten up inside by it. Pardon me for this nosy question but it is the title of your thread.


Long, no worries. My life for the last year and a half has pretty much been an open book and I guess by putting it out there I invite whatever comments come my way. I get that and accept it. The sex life has improved dramatically. She initiates often and is trying to please me however she can in and out of the bedroom. I don't get shut down any more. I would say we are getting busy 3-5x a week and it's much better sex than ever before. She's into it. No fantasy stuff yet but working on it. :lol:

It feels good to be her first thought. For her to put me first. My happiness is important to her and I come before she does. That has been the most dramatic shift. She has always had a selfish, "me" streak, while I have alway been more "selfless". Different upbringing. ME huge family - used to sacrifice. Her small family - getting what she wanted and center of attention. I would agree with Conan that is not healthy in any relationship. It's a lot more balanced now as it should have been. You need to put each other first. If one partner does and the other does not it becomes unbalanced and unhealthy.


----------



## ConanHub

Hey RS. I could have expressed my concern without being a jack ass.

Sorry, it is something I am working on.

I still believe it is a valid concern but if all else seems well and you are satisfied, then that is what counts.

I actually, unfortunately, have a lot of experience with infidelity and other misbehaviors. 

My intentions were honorable and my delivery deplorable.

I certainly do wish you and your family peace and well being.

God Bless.


----------



## Road Scholar

ConanHub said:


> Asking for a timeline is punishment? I AM NOT REFERRING TO THE INFIDELITY! I am glad for Road and his family. The shaky foundation statement stands. I sincerely hope they encounter no more serious issue. She could strengthen their marriage by honoring his request. It is that simple.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thank you. The timeline was an issue for me but not as much anymore. I have my own timeline that I constructed which is very accurate down to dates times and places. I'm sure there may be things I don't know - but I know enough. I made her read it before I destroyed it. Intertwined with emails filled with I love you's and all the other long letters from me to her during that time of false reconciliation. 

I don't focus on that anymore because I understand her reluctance to provide it. She was deathly afraid once she realized I was ready, willing, and able to walk that any more information would send me over the edge and send me packing and it just might have. Maybe temporarily, maybe for good. She was in preservation mode. Self preservation and marital preservation mode. Everything was on the line.

Yes, she didn't provide what I asked for and took the risk that not providing it would buy us more time to work through this. As it turned out she was right. Was that being selfish and thinking of her best interests? Maybe. Maybe she was thinking of our best interest too. The timeline, or lack thereof, from her is less damaging to me than the deceit and betrayal that took place post DDAY1. By witholding it she did what she felt she needed to do to give us a chance, not realizing it would have helped me heal quicker, trust her quicker. I think had she known that it may have been provided sooner. I think she is still fearful additional details will send me packing. If there is another land mine out there she may be right. I have expressed to her very clearly my need for honesty, integrity and truth above all else at this point. 

I think about my past with her and some things I have done over our 20+ years together and I have not come clean to her about all of it either, so I understand the fear of revealing too much about shameful mistakes. I'm looking forward to what this new relationship may bring and trying to bury the corpse of the old one, while still holding onto the lessons painfully learned throughout all of this.

The biggest of them is we are all human and we will all make mistakes and hurt others along the way. It's what we do afterwards that defines our character.

RS


----------



## LongWalk

Here is a blog that discusses the issue of facts as a potential destructive force.

TAM is sometimes in a hurry to dispel the so-called affair fog. But let's be real, if someone is in love, that may not evaporate with a single Dday confrontation. In all probability many cheaters must go through a process in which their values and emotions are challenged.

This blog deals with this. Interestingly, he claims that women are more likely to regret the pain they caused their spouse but not actually regret the affair. But he notes that former cheaters may never get rid of all positive feelings for the affair partner. They may even love two persons at once, although the AP becomes a historical person in their lives.

I suspect that affair partners at work at more difficult to negate emotionally because they were important at work, where we often spend more time together than with our spouses. That's 8 hours of a day and work lunches. Add to that team building events, product launches, Christmas parties, etc. and it is easy to see how a marriage can get sucked dry.

There is validation of an AP at work. They are praised and acknowledged by colleagues and management. Who praises and acknowledges a spouse?


----------



## jim123

Road Scholar said:


> Thank you. The timeline was an issue for me but not as much anymore. I have my own timeline that I constructed which is very accurate down to dates times and places. I'm sure there may be things I don't know - but I know enough. I made her read it before I destroyed it. Intertwined with emails filled with I love you's and all the other long letters from me to her during that time of false reconciliation.
> 
> I don't focus on that anymore because I understand her reluctance to provide it. She was deathly afraid once she realized I was ready, willing, and able to walk that any more information would send me over the edge and send me packing and it just might have. Maybe temporarily, maybe for good. She was in preservation mode. Self preservation and marital preservation mode. Everything was on the line.
> 
> Yes, she didn't provide what I asked for and took the risk that not providing it would buy us more time to work through this. As it turned out she was right. Was that being selfish and thinking of her best interests? Maybe. Maybe she was thinking of our best interest too. The timeline, or lack thereof, from her is less damaging to me than the deceit and betrayal that took place post DDAY1. By witholding it she did what she felt she needed to do to give us a chance, not realizing it would have helped me heal quicker, trust her quicker. I think had she known that it may have been provided sooner. I think she is still fearful additional details will send me packing. If there is another land mine out there she may be right. I have expressed to her very clearly my need for honesty, integrity and truth above all else at this point.
> 
> I think about my past with her and some things I have done over our 20+ years together and I have not come clean to her about all of it either, so I understand the fear of revealing too much about shameful mistakes. I'm looking forward to what this new relationship may bring and trying to bury the corpse of the old one, while still holding onto the lessons painfully learned throughout all of this.
> 
> The biggest of them is we are all human and we will all make mistakes and hurt others along the way. It's what we do afterwards that defines our character.
> 
> RS


She made a choice, not a mistake.


----------



## tom67

Road Scholar said:


> Long, no worries. My life for the last year and a half has pretty much been an open book and I guess by putting it out there I invite whatever comments come my way. I get that and accept it. The sex life has improved dramatically. She initiates often and is trying to please me however she can in and out of the bedroom. I don't get shut down any more. I would say we are getting busy 3-5x a week and it's much better sex than ever before. She's into it. No fantasy stuff yet but working on it. :lol:
> 
> It feels good to be her first thought. For her to put me first. My happiness is important to her and I come before she does. That has been the most dramatic shift. She has always had a selfish, "me" streak, while I have alway been more "selfless". Different upbringing. ME huge family - used to sacrifice. Her small family - getting what she wanted and center of attention. I would agree with Conan that is not healthy in any relationship. It's a lot more balanced now as it should have been. You need to put each other first. If one partner does and the other does not it becomes unbalanced and unhealthy.


Road this is very good.
I'm glad she realized what a great guy you are.
Read MMSLP again on occasion to keep you honest.
Hey come back when you can and help others.


----------



## warlock07

Does she discuss the affair? About what her relationship with the OM was ? How does she look at him now?


----------



## warlock07

Road Scholar said:


> Thank you. The timeline was an issue for me but not as much anymore. I have my own timeline that I constructed which is very accurate down to dates times and places. I'm sure there may be things I don't know - but I know enough. I made her read it before I destroyed it. Intertwined with emails filled with I love you's and all the other long letters from me to her during that time of false reconciliation.
> 
> I don't focus on that anymore because I understand her reluctance to provide it. She was deathly afraid once she realized I was ready, willing, and able to walk that any more information would send me over the edge and send me packing and it just might have. Maybe temporarily, maybe for good. She was in preservation mode. Self preservation and marital preservation mode. Everything was on the line.
> 
> Yes, she didn't provide what I asked for and took the risk that not providing it would buy us more time to work through this. As it turned out she was right. Was that being selfish and thinking of her best interests? Maybe. Maybe she was thinking of our best interest too. The timeline, or lack thereof, from her is less damaging to me than the deceit and betrayal that took place post DDAY1. By witholding it she did what she felt she needed to do to give us a chance, not realizing it would have helped me heal quicker, trust her quicker. I think had she known that it may have been provided sooner. I think she is still fearful additional details will send me packing. If there is another land mine out there she may be right. I have expressed to her very clearly my need for honesty, integrity and truth above all else at this point.
> 
> I think about my past with her and some things I have done over our 20+ years together and I have not come clean to her about all of it either, so I understand the fear of revealing too much about shameful mistakes. I'm looking forward to what this new relationship may bring and trying to bury the corpse of the old one, while still holding onto the lessons painfully learned throughout all of this.
> 
> The biggest of them is we are all human and we will all make mistakes and hurt others along the way. It's what we do afterwards that defines our character.
> 
> RS


His 2 posts above this actually made me think that things got better and he is in a much happier situation.

Maybe he is making the best of his reality, but the rationalizations seem shallow and empty. Beautiful fluff.


----------



## turnera

Some people are utterly incapable of speaking out loud things they've done wrong. I know. I'm one of them. My toxic shame prohibits me from admitting I made a mistake. I'll take it to my grave. It's possible that, if this is her case, if they rebuild a fantastic relationship, she'll at some point feel safe enough to say it, give that timeline.


----------



## MEM2020

Road,

Your reconstruction of the timeline was brilliant. 

You totally shut down her attempt to minimize.

But the ultimate measure of the marriage is this theme you have touched on. I call it the: dual prime

You are my prime and I am yours. 









Road Scholar said:


> Thank you. The timeline was an issue for me but not as much anymore. I have my own timeline that I constructed which is very accurate down to dates times and places. I'm sure there may be things I don't know - but I know enough. I made her read it before I destroyed it. Intertwined with emails filled with I love you's and all the other long letters from me to her during that time of false reconciliation.
> 
> I don't focus on that anymore because I understand her reluctance to provide it. She was deathly afraid once she realized I was ready, willing, and able to walk that any more information would send me over the edge and send me packing and it just might have. Maybe temporarily, maybe for good. She was in preservation mode. Self preservation and marital preservation mode. Everything was on the line.
> 
> Yes, she didn't provide what I asked for and took the risk that not providing it would buy us more time to work through this. As it turned out she was right. Was that being selfish and thinking of her best interests? Maybe. Maybe she was thinking of our best interest too. The timeline, or lack thereof, from her is less damaging to me than the deceit and betrayal that took place post DDAY1. By witholding it she did what she felt she needed to do to give us a chance, not realizing it would have helped me heal quicker, trust her quicker. I think had she known that it may have been provided sooner. I think she is still fearful additional details will send me packing. If there is another land mine out there she may be right. I have expressed to her very clearly my need for honesty, integrity and truth above all else at this point.
> 
> I think about my past with her and some things I have done over our 20+ years together and I have not come clean to her about all of it either, so I understand the fear of revealing too much about shameful mistakes. I'm looking forward to what this new relationship may bring and trying to bury the corpse of the old one, while still holding onto the lessons painfully learned throughout all of this.
> 
> The biggest of them is we are all human and we will all make mistakes and hurt others along the way. It's what we do afterwards that defines our character.
> 
> RS


----------



## larry.gray

turnera said:


> Some people are utterly incapable of speaking out loud things they've done wrong. I know. I'm one of them. My toxic shame prohibits me from admitting I made a mistake. I'll take it to my grave. It's possible that, if this is her case, if they rebuild a fantastic relationship, she'll at some point feel safe enough to say it, give that timeline.


I guess I don't understand it. What is the big deal with admitting fault?

You do realize how much harder it is for the other person in the relationship because of this? I've posted before that I don't think I could overcome my wife's infidelity if it happened. I know many people say they would leave immediately before it happens, and then when it stares them in the face for real they reconsider and do reconcile. I say that for me, I really do doubt it could happen for us. Why can I be so certain? Because of what you just posted. 

I may be able to reconcile. But not if the cheater's pride is more important than helping the betrayed overcome the pain.


----------



## turnera

larry.gray said:


> I guess I don't understand it. What is the big deal with admitting fault?


Depends on what kind of family you came from. If you were punished as a child for admitting fault, well, your subconscious is going to fight tooth and nail to do it as an adult, and you won't even realize you're doing it. Your brain gets hardwired to do this or that, most of that hardwiring occurs in childhood as you're learning the ropes, so to speak. So even when I KNOW I should just admit I threw away an important paper or backed over his tool and broke it, I go into immediate fight or flight mode at the thought of it, even knowing that it would make things easier. The dysfunctional mind is a scary place, larry. And not at all logical.

And it may not be 'cheater's pride' but 'cheater's shame.'


----------



## azteca1986

Road Scholar said:


> I think she is still fearful additional details will send me packing. If there is another land mine out there she may be right. I have expressed to her very clearly *my need for honesty, integrity and truth* above all else at this point.


But she hasn't been completely truthful. 



> The biggest of them is we are all human and we will all make mistakes and hurt others along the way. * It's what we do afterwards that defines our character.*


I suppose this applies to both of you, yes?

Good luck going forward, RS


----------



## CASE_Sensitive

R/S - Just wondering if there is still part of you that wants to confront POSOM.


----------



## larry.gray

turnera said:


> Depends on what kind of family you came from. If you were punished as a child for admitting fault, well, your subconscious is going to fight tooth and nail to do it as an adult, and you won't even realize you're doing it. Your brain gets hardwired to do this or that, most of that hardwiring occurs in childhood as you're learning the ropes, so to speak. So even when I KNOW I should just admit I threw away an important paper or backed over his tool and broke it, I go into immediate fight or flight mode at the thought of it, even knowing that it would make things easier. The dysfunctional mind is a scary place, larry. And not at all logical.


But continuing it is ignoring self-awareness, isn't it?

Most of us are raised with some levels of screwed up upbringing. I had some myself. But self-awareness caused me to retrain myself.


----------



## turnera

That's good. Most people don't have that level of self control.


----------



## warlock07

turnera said:


> Some people are utterly incapable of speaking out loud things they've done wrong. I know. I'm one of them. My toxic shame prohibits me from admitting I made a mistake. I'll take it to my grave. It's possible that, if this is her case, if they rebuild a fantastic relationship, she'll at some point feel safe enough to say it, give that timeline.


All I see is logic is the continuation of WS putting her comforts and selfishness before BS needs. 


RS, did you read the stories of BS that post here several years after infidelity because the pain will never go away ? They try to swallow the pain away and it works temporarily for a few years. Then it comes out in full force. 

At the primal level, you understand that what she didn't do was pretty important to you. You are trying to convince yourself(by trying to convince people on TAM) that they are not important in the long run. 

Maybe your approach now is the best way to go about it. Maybe it is not. I don't think your strategy is any better than taking a more confrontational approach. 

Gaah!! Why am I even trying!!


----------



## turnera

warlock, why do you think I always tell people to give their requirements and be ready to walk if the cheater won't meet them? I'm not saying she's right; I'm saying you have to be willing to lose the marriage if she won't do what you need.


----------



## LongWalk

Hard_to_Detach also recently returned to update. He did not follow through with the divorce. He and his WW are still together. She even violated NC in August. He is not certain whether their marriage will survive but he wants to wait until his sons finish highschool before he decides. He want more information about the affair, but is not getting it. Still, he is hanging on. Is it wrong to compromise? That is the BS's choice.

Road Scholar pretty much assumes that his WW continued the affair after Dday1. She certainly remained emotionally invested in the OM, deeply in fact. Furthermore, he had no intimacy for 6 months and that is often a sign that the WW is remaining faithful to the AP.

RS's might not have discovered deal breaking dirt under the carpet. But as RS points out, not investigating all the details allowed them to go forward. Most importantly his wife now treats him like a lover, instead of the guy who is always trying to please his wife. She has become a less selfish person. That is an enormous achievement on her part.


----------



## sidney2718

turnera said:


> Depends on what kind of family you came from. If you were punished as a child for admitting fault, well, your subconscious is going to fight tooth and nail to do it as an adult, and you won't even realize you're doing it. Your brain gets hardwired to do this or that, most of that hardwiring occurs in childhood as you're learning the ropes, so to speak. So even when I KNOW I should just admit I threw away an important paper or backed over his tool and broke it, I go into immediate fight or flight mode at the thought of it, even knowing that it would make things easier. The dysfunctional mind is a scary place, larry. And not at all logical.
> 
> And it may not be 'cheater's pride' but 'cheater's shame.'


It may also have nothing to do with just cheating. I grew up in a loving warm home with only one major fault. Whatever I did around the house either did not meet expectations or could have been improved upon.

As a result almost anything I did resulted in pain. There was and is always the fear of doing something wrong. So now, many decades later, I still have trouble fixing things around the house if someone is here watching. It is a deep seated phobia that I've known about for years but have been unable to fix.

So I think that your "cheater's shame" comes from the same roots. There are things which, for whatever reason, we can't bring ourselves to do.


----------



## turnera

Yep. Dysfunction is dysfunction.


----------



## barbados

LongWalk said:


> But as RS points out, not investigating all the details allowed them to go forward. Most importantly his wife now treats him like a lover, instead of the guy who is always trying to please his wife. She has become a less selfish person. That is an enormous achievement on her part.


This is the very definition of rug sweeping. They move forward as long as she does not have to tell him everything. So he still does not know what he is really forgiving, and his updates reflect this.


----------



## LongWalk

There are discussions about what a BS has to know to go forward. I am not sure if a BS gets a description of OM's genitalia, etc. it helps. In RS's situation, there were several horror points:

1) His wife would no longer have sex with him;
2) She was still in love with OM;
3) She was lying about her commitment to R;

Can one conclude that she no longer desired him because she desired the OM and as long as that continued their marriage was a lie?

Once she started having sex with him thing improved. He felt loved. He still suspected that OM had had more exciting sex. But that is a reality because affair sex is often more fun than marital sex. This healing process did not save their marriage outright but allowed it to continue. Call it healing. During this RS has observed improvements in her as a person and himself.

If he were to now insist on details about sex with OM would that open up old wounds? 

Isn't the most import thing that RS and his wife have found a new relationship?

At the end of the day the BS must forgive. However, it is also apparent that a BS who has self respect is not defenseless. If RS's formerly WW does not meet his needs, he can still divorce her.

If RS's wife wants to bang as much as possible in a loving way because it makes her feel secure, is that rugsweeping?


----------



## clipclop2

There are a lot of marriages that allegedly survived infidelity in the past based solely on rug sweeping. We all know that. It is probably the reality for most people outside of TAM. 

We defined some rules we apply about knowing the full extent of an affair and demanding total transparency etc. The rules make sense to us. But just look at how few successful reconciliations we have under our belt!

In the end it is the OP's life. I couldn't do it but that doesn't mean he can't. Everyone makes choices and trade offs in their lives. 

Maybe consciously choosing to rug sweep is a valid gamble for some.


----------



## MattMatt

clipclop2 said:


> There are a lot of marriages that allegedly survived infidelity in the past based solely on rug sweeping. We all know that. It is probably the reality for most people outside of TAM.
> 
> We defined some rules we apply about knowing the full extent of an affair and demanding total transparency etc. The rules make sense to us. But just look at how few successful reconciliations we have under our belt!
> 
> In the end it is the OP's life. I couldn't do it but that doesn't mean he can't. Everyone makes choices and trade offs in their lives.
> 
> Maybe consciously choosing to rug sweep is a valid gamble for some.


And some of us on TAM, as well.

My wife's affair was way back in the days before TAM was on line.


----------



## clipclop2

Do you feel there is a place for conscious rug sweeping?


----------



## sammy3

((Sigh)) I would probably have a good R and even better than it was marriage, more loving, closer than was, more honest, more real, more true, more present, and more future building, if it weren't for one issue... infidelity... 

RS you'll make ...

~sammy


----------



## Thor

clipclop2 said:


> Do you feel there is a place for conscious rug sweeping?


Yes, but it depends on the BS. Some BS might believe that the WS has fully returned to the marriage and has completely repudiated their affair. So the BS feels secure in the relationship.

Some BS might want to know many more details before being able to move forward.

For most people I think a rugsweep means the BS can never heal. The marriage may survive from the perspective of not divorcing, but the marriage may never be healthy or happy. The BS decides staying is the lesser evil due to whatever his/her priorities are (kids, money, social status, etc).


----------



## clipclop2

How many marriages are truly healthy or happy?

No idea.


----------



## sidney2718

About rug sweeping and saving a marriage.



MattMatt said:


> And some of us on TAM, as well.
> 
> My wife's affair was way back in the days before TAM was on line.


Rug sweeping, in my opinion, is too broad a term. I know of cases here where the WS would not even admit that there was an affair. That, in my opinion, won't work.

On the other hand, rug sweeping the number of meetings, the lovey-dovey e-mails exchanged, etc., might not prevent a reconciliation.


----------



## sidney2718

clipclop2 said:


> How many marriages are truly healthy or happy?
> 
> No idea.


I've been around long enough to have a fair sample. For folks married more than five years, I know of NO MARRIAGES that have not had problems. And the longer folks are married (up to about 30 years) the worse the problems.

For some reasons, possibly resignation, after 30 few new problems surface (not talking about illness).

Just my observations.


----------



## LongWalk

Rug sweeping is often relative. If someone learned that there spouse kissed someone else passionately goodbye for the last time the day before their wedding 20 years ago it might be a killer blow to their marriage. This could be discovered in a letter or email. But some BS who were very secure in their marriage might be able to laugh it off since they knew what quality their marriage had. Jld used to go on about this. The truly strong BH could cope by absorbing the hurt. She would no doubt approve of RS.

How many times a cheater snuck off to fornicate might be a minor detail or a leaden weight to R. Who can say? Many times spouses are really angry that they were lured into taking care of children or were otherwise distracted so that the cheaters could enjoy their pleasures. 

Adriana could not forgive her ex for boinking a yummy mummy. She still thinks pretty well of her ex, but she is not the type to accept what he did, even if she believes a sort of happy life would still have been possible.


----------



## 2asdf2

I rugswept successfully for decades. Until...

She accused me of starting a homosexual affair. At that point all the rugsweeping came undone!


----------



## Road Scholar

warlock07 said:


> His 2 posts above this actually made me think that things got better and he is in a much happier situation.
> 
> Maybe he is making the best of his reality, but the rationalizations seem shallow and empty. Beautiful fluff.


I definitely am trying to make the best of it. It's a reall sh*tty situation. We rationalize everything we do - especially the illogical things. And this is probably the most illogical thing I have ever done (R). 

Things are better than they were and we are both trying to work through this. It ain't easy. A few days after posting all this I had myself convinced I was done with it all, yet I'm still here fighting. This is no slam dunk over a year later. I still go back a forth. When I feel I'm ready to walk (which is a very painful place), she reels me back in with how sorry she is and how badly she f'd up (it feels good to see her fight for me) And only wants to love me and make me happy. That works - at least for a little while. (about a week or two) I'm begining to wonder if I'm putting myself through the negative thoughts just to see her grovel a little. God, I hope not.

Good days intermixed with bad thoughts of that time and her actions, her deceit and betrayal. I know she does regret it, but I also know that I could not have done that to her. I know that the risk of losing my family and wife would have snapped me out of the fog. She was willing to lose it all for him. That remains a hard pill to swallow. As I said to her this am, "You had a taste of something - someone else and liked it, alot!"


----------



## Road Scholar

LongWalk said:


> Hard_to_Detach also recently returned to update. He did not follow through with the divorce. He and his WW are still together. She even violated NC in August. He is not certain whether their marriage will survive but he wants to wait until his sons finish highschool before he decides. He want more information about the affair, but is not getting it. Still, he is hanging on. Is it wrong to compromise? That is the BS's choice.


If NC were to be broken. That would be the last straw for me. No question. 



LongWalk said:


> Road Scholar pretty much assumes that his WW continued the affair after Dday1. She certainly remained emotionally invested in the OM, deeply in fact. Furthermore, he had no intimacy for 6 months and that is often a sign that the WW is remaining faithful to the AP.


Nope. I confirmed that affair was still on after she initially denied it, saying "it was over in May" then admitted to just once. My toll records and phone records confirmed the rest. We had a 



LongWalk said:


> RS's might not have discovered deal breaking dirt under the carpet. But as RS points out, not investigating all the details allowed them to go forward. Most importantly his wife now treats him like a lover, instead of the guy who is always trying to please his wife. She has become a less selfish person. That is an enormous achievement on her part.


----------



## bfree

Honestly RS, I don't know how you're still there. I can't decide if it's immense courage or blind stupidity. Nah...It's got to be courage. Can I ask you this question. What hasn't she done that you feel she should have done. I'm wondering what is missing because it seems that you and your wife have settled into a pattern of limbo. Two steps forward, two steps back. In your mind what would break this pattern?


----------



## LongWalk

Road Scholar said:


> I definitely am trying to make the best of it. It's a reall sh*tty situation. We rationalize everything we do - especially the illogical things. And this is probably the most illogical thing I have ever done (R).
> 
> *Man is not a rational animal, he is a rationalizing animal. (Robert Heinlein)*
> 
> Things are better than they were and we are both trying to work through this. *You have the ability to evaluate the situation; not everyone in your position would have it.* It ain't easy.
> 
> A few days after posting all this I had myself convinced I was done with it all, yet I'm still here fighting. This is no slam dunk over a year later. I still go back a forth. When I feel I'm ready to walk (which is a very painful place), she reels me back in with how sorry she is and how badly she f'd up (it feels good to see her fight for me) And only wants to love me and make me happy. That works - at least for a little while. (about a week or two) * I'm begining to wonder if I'm putting myself through the negative thoughts just to see her grovel a little*. God, I hope not.
> 
> *Why don't you ask her if she thinks you do? Ask her how long she thinks she can stand this roller coaster?*
> 
> Good days intermixed with bad thoughts of that time and her actions, her deceit and betrayal. I know she does regret it, but I also know that I could not have done that to her. *According to one authoritative blogger on infidelity, female cheaters feel regret less frequently than male cheaters.* I know that the risk of losing my family and wife would have snapped me out of the fog. She was willing to lose it all for him. That remains a hard pill to swallow. As I said to her this am, "You had a taste of something - someone else and liked it, alot!"
> 
> *What was her reply?*


----------



## warlock07

Road Scholar said:


> I definitely am trying to make the best of it. It's a reall sh*tty situation. We rationalize everything we do - especially the illogical things. And this is probably the most illogical thing I have ever done (R).
> 
> Things are better than they were and we are both trying to work through this. It ain't easy. A few days after posting all this I had myself convinced I was done with it all, yet I'm still here fighting. This is no slam dunk over a year later. I still go back a forth. When I feel I'm ready to walk (which is a very painful place), she reels me back in with how sorry she is and how badly she f'd up (it feels good to see her fight for me) And only wants to love me and make me happy. That works - at least for a little while. (about a week or two) I'm begining to wonder if I'm putting myself through the negative thoughts just to see her grovel a little. God, I hope not.
> 
> Good days intermixed with bad thoughts of that time and her actions, her deceit and betrayal. I know she does regret it, but I also know that I could not have done that to her. I know that the risk of losing my family and wife would have snapped me out of the fog. She was willing to lose it all for him. That remains a hard pill to swallow. As I said to her this am, "You had a taste of something - someone else and liked it, alot!"



No, her fixes are good for the time being but what about a long term solution?

You never ask this questions directly. I am not asking you to do them but your answers to these questions might reveal a lot about her motivations to R. 

1) What would happen if you expose the affair to her father ? (Is her mother still alive ? )

2) What will happen if you ask her for the complete timeline and the number of times she met him during false R ?

3)What would happen if you took a break and slept with other people during that time ? Would she mind ?


----------



## warlock07

You reason out that not giving you the timeline perhaps saved the marriage in retrospect, but would it also not mean she kept on putting herself before your feelings ? Or do you think she actually did do it for the greater good. 

Does it also not set a bad precedent by letting her make decisions of what is best for you ? Is it not this line of thinking that resulted in the affair in the first place(and also the second time ?)


----------



## ConanHub

warlock07 said:


> You reason out that not giving you the timeline perhaps saved the marriage in retrospect, but would it also not mean she kept on putting herself before your feelings ? Or do you think she actually did do it for the greater good.
> 
> Does it also not set a bad precedent by letting her make decisions of what is best for you ? Is it not this line of thinking that resulted in the affair in the first place(and also the second time ?)


Ya. That was the whole"shaky foundation" thing I was talking about. Quit drawing me in Warlock! LOL!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LongWalk

Warlock,

Does the importance of facts change? Does their presentation change their significance?

RS has always been highly conscious that his wife:

1. enjoyed sex with OM significantly;
2. was emotionally involved with OM to the point that she refused to have sex with him for 6 months;
3. lied to him;

At this point the time line will not change any of these facts. Their R has made to this point. If his wife now elaborates on how good sex with OM was, how head over heels in love her infatuation was, how many more lies there were, is it now going to make R easier?

Right now at the transactional love bank RS can over draw at will without fear of retribution while his wife must worry that a single "unacceptable" word or action will end their marriage. This is not a healthy situation in the long run. RS is a aware of this.

It is a testimony to his wisdom that he doesn't want to remain in this imbalance of power in their relationship. IMO everything hinges on his wife's appreciation of his generosity. If she mistakes R as a sign of his weakness, he will file for divorce the next day. That won't really ever change.

Footnote:



> Soooo, I had already spent money on a getaway weekend before I found out she was in contact with him which was* not refundable*, so we are going. I know either way there is still a long road ahead of me regardless the path I end up on, so I will use this weekend to see how she acts. I'm guessing now that sex will be part of the weekend so at least there is that and we'll see how everything else goes. This may be a mistake based on all the posts but I'm willing to see how it goes and realize I may be opening myself up again but at least now I see it as a real risk. I know I am strong enough if I get hurt again or lied to again and my kids deserve that much.


Refundable holidays are more expensive.

RS,

Perhaps you ought to not concentrate on how your wife treats you; better to observe how she treats others. Is she a good mother? Is she patient with others? Kind? Is she a better person? Certainly she is not as selfish as during the affair, but is she otherwise is a wiser, more compassionate human being?


----------



## warlock07

> At this point the time line will not change any of these facts. Their R has made to this point. If his wife now elaborates on how good sex with OM was, how head over heels in love her infatuation was, how many more lies there were, is it now going to make R easier?
> 
> You make the decision to R based on what happened. You don't decide that your R and then manipulate the reality around it. Do you ?
> 
> Right now at the transactional love bank RS can over draw at will without fear of retribution while his wife must worry that a single "unacceptable" word or action will end their marriage. This is not a healthy situation in the long run. RS is a aware of this.
> 
> It is a testimony to his wisdom that he doesn't want to remain in this imbalance of power in their relationship. IMO everything hinges on his wife's appreciation of his generosity. If she mistakes R as a sign of his weakness, he will file for divorce the next day. That won't really ever change.


I think you are speaking in hyperbole LS. I don't think it is weakness but it definitely is not wisdom. There is no wisdom in RS actions. 

The only defining moment is the mild threat of divorce RS made when he had the 2nd d-day. Even then, I am not sure how much of this R attempt is because of her love towards him. To me, the primary motivator for her R is shame. Shame of having a failed marriage or fear of having her affair exposed. or even worst case scenario, protecting the OM. 

From what I remember, OM wasn't exposed to his wife. Right RS ?


----------



## azteca1986

> I think she is still fearful additional details will send me packing. If there is another land mine out there she may be right. I have expressed to her very clearly my need for honesty, integrity and truth above all else at this point.


RS draws a line in the sand and demands "honesty, integrity and truth above all else". She _still_ keeps her secrets. 

Are we now in a world of double-speak where lack of honesty and truth is a good thing?


----------



## NoChoice

azteca1986 said:


> RS draws a line in the sand and demands "honesty, integrity and truth above all else". She _still_ keeps her secrets.
> 
> Are we now in a world of double-speak where lack of honesty and truth is a good thing?


Self preservation. She has made some very poor decisions and may be gunshy as to how much the full truth could blow up what's left of her life. The truth is always best but may not always be received as offered. Someone quoted the line from Tom Cruise "I want the truth" but maybe of more pertinence to this thread is Nicholson's reply....

It's sad that all situations are not easy and straightforward and simple but they are not. They are not even static but dynamic and in a constant state of flux. A complex interwoven maze of action and reaction, cause and effect, understanding and misunderstanding.

RS, I admire you for what you are doing for your family. Some have called you weak but I believe that standing in the wake of your wife's devastation as a shield for your children shows more internal fortitude than most of us will ever have. I find your character to be of a depth rarely seen anymore, it is commendable. I believe that no one will appreciate that more than your kids as they mature and become aware of what happened and what Dad did for us, an invaluable lesson for them. I've heard doormat used in reference to your approach but I see a door. A triple hinged, steel encased, deadbolted barrier with your kids on the inside safe and shielded.

Your wife also seems to be truly, deeply remorseful and willing to do some heavy lifting to save her marriage. Her trickle truthing may be, as stated above, out of sheer terror over losing what she has left. Most people are not fortunate enough to have a WS that REALLY wants to save their marriage and is willing to work to do it. One who can finally appreciate the value of what they have. You seem to.

No one can explain exactly how and why this happens but I have posited several posts in an attempt to shed some light on it. You can check some of them if you are so inclined and feel it may help you to understand. It has to do with the speed and accuracy with which information is processed by each individual and the resulting outcome or "choice" is based on that processing ability.

I believe that we really do not have a "choice" per say in what we do but are rather relegated to act based on our individual ability to process, compile and extrapolate information in any given situation coupled with our perception of honor, dedication, understanding and commitment. As an example, I believe that you had no choice but to stay and try to make your family work. Your honor, dedication and sticktoitiveness demanded it. That's why your "deal breaker" line moved multiple times.

I also firmly believe that no one really knows what they will do in any given situation until they stand there facing the raw force of it. I believe you reacted with honor, integrity and purpose caring less about yourself than your kids and even your wife.

If she is capable, your wife could learn an invaluable lesson from you as well. She cast aside her honor, integrity and virtue while you embraced yours even in the face of her betrayal.

I know your are a religious man from your posts and I am sure your beliefs helped you navigate these rough waters. I would like to quote a verse which I am sure you are aware of that exemplifies how little understanding most people have. While hanging on a cross, beaten and bloodied, ridiculed and scorned, hated and rejected, humiliated and shamed, Christ made a statement showing the depth of his character. He said "forgive them father for *they know not what they do*". He realized the limited intellectual ability of those involved and though he could have cut and run, he stayed and asked for their forgiveness. Did all who were involved see that, no. Did some, yes. I can only hope that your wife is among the few who can see and understand your sacrifice. I know your kids will, in time.

Your struggle will continue as you endeavor to fight the mental fallout from this but allow me to point out that this A has cost the Scholar family dearly. It has taken on a life of its own and has now become a beast that must be fed by emotional energy. It only takes and never gives, sapping some of the life from the marriage each day. The more you feed it the stronger it grows. At some point I think it would be healthy to say enough, we will feed this beast no longer and then set about starving it to death. Deprive it of its energy and the beast will die. The negative thoughts, the mind movies and the "reliving" of it feeds this beast.

You must force it from your mind. Like a soldier must somehow force out the thoughts of taking another life and watching comrades die so also must you forget the death of your first marriage and concentrate on the new life ahead. It will never be as it was and that is a good thing. Now it can be richer, and more robust with the lessons learned and the battles won. Look what your marriage has survived and now you are armed with more knowledge than you had before. You may even be able to help others facing what you have successfully conquered. I wish you all the best.


----------



## turnera

LongWalk said:


> Warlock,
> 
> Does the importance of facts change? Does their presentation change their significance?
> 
> RS has always been highly conscious that his wife:
> 
> 1. enjoyed sex with OM significantly;
> 2. was emotionally involved with OM to the point that she refused to have sex with him for 6 months;
> 3. lied to him;
> 
> At this point the time line will not change any of these facts. Their R has made to this point. If his wife now elaborates on how good sex with OM was, how head over heels in love her infatuation was, how many more lies there were, is it now going to make R easier?


I'm surprised to read this from you, LW. A timeline is NOT the same as telling him how she felt. And NOT giving a timeline is a SIGNIFICANT unwillingness to relinquish control. It has nothing to do with stating how she felt; so her not giving it DOES NOT make R easier because he is now completely aware that she - still - puts herself above him. 

As I have repeatedly stated, there can be no good R without real humility.


----------



## azteca1986

I'll say this as delicately as I can. If *I* make demands for "honesty, integrity and truth above all else" and I don't get it, it's then *my integrity* that gets called into question.

It's up to me to enforce my own boundaries. Or are boundaries going to go the same way as honesty, integrity and truth?


----------



## LongWalk

Warlock,

There is a strong argument for what you say. Her soft NC email was unsatisfying to RS. He is very candid the whole way through his thread and would probably agree that if he had been on TAM earlier and accepted coaching from the likes of Shaggy or you, he would have busted the affair and spared himself months of suffering.

It could well be that the Dday2 shift was primarily about the horror that her life was crumbling. She is smart, good looking, career minded. Being a great mom was her ambition. Happily married, yes, she wanted that, too. But she wanted sex and romance with an alpha guy and got hooked on him. Suddenly when cake eating was not on the menu, she quit the affair cold turkey.

When she retreated from OM she didn't really have time to find it disgusting, she was merely trying to escape the consequences and RS was the key holder to return to her life. Of course the environment was different. The affair was like an invasive species that can never be wholly removed. Since RS was hyper-vigilant and hostile to all concerning OM and the affair to protect her marriage (not RS) she had to begin to see the affair differently. It is said that WS often go through mourning and withdrawal from their AP. This is an unpleasant reality for BS.

We can only speculate on what went through her mind. I think you or someone else warned him that she would throw herself at him. RS went on the getaway, knowing that he was going to have sex with her to try to determine whether to R. He has since then honestly reported how their sex life has recovered. Arguably, as his wife has reflected over the extent of her betrayal, she has become more passionate in bed and grateful that RS still wants her. She has to chase him when he becomes distant.

RS will know that his marriage is dead if they are having sex and he becomes disengaged and finds her repulsive. If he says something cruel to her and she grovels, he may lose attraction for her. Can that happen? It is conceivable. RS is certainly conscious of this lurking hazard.

The first time I went swimming in the Atlantic i could see the ocean below but there was sand to walk through and then a section of rocky shore that was painful to walk on. And yet I never imagined that we would turn back. Every part of me wanted to get to crashing waves in the distance. I don't remember much about the water itself. Heck, I couldn't even swim. It was the struggle to get there that I recall.

RS has borne walking on the rocks for some time. It seems to be getting easier. His wife is a less selfish person now. He is more comfortable being the more desired partner in the relationship.

Asking for the timeline seems pointless now.

If RS were to really want to test her, he could always start a fake gmail account and email his wife with message from OM, fishing for an emotional reaction from her. If she responded to it at all, that would be the end.

I don't suppose RS is the kind of guy who would play a trick like that. It would certainly disappoint his wife because she would have to conclude that she changed him and not for the better.

The healthiest way to get through this is honest communication.

Maybe she should reveal the affair to someone in their family to further delineate the remorseful wife of the present from the adulterous one of the past.

@NoChoice
Very fair reckoning of who RS is and what he stands for. His wife is forced to improve herself to stay in their relationship.

@Turnera
Way back I thought RS should have laid out an uncompromising demand for a timeline. It would have accelerated repudiation of the affair. But that was months ago. At this point it might be helpful but it risks going back to the stage of raw hurt. Is that something they have the energy to deal with. NoChoice doesn't think they have the wherewithal to dredge it all up again.

In a fabulous world RS, his wife and OM would be at the edge of cliff beneath bright sky and she would push OM off to his death. This world doesn't exist and that is why everyone talks about the karma bus.


----------



## jim123

warlock07 said:


> I think you are speaking in hyperbole LS. I don't think it is weakness but it definitely is not wisdom. There is no wisdom in RS actions.
> 
> The only defining moment is the mild threat of divorce RS made when he had the 2nd d-day. Even then, I am not sure how much of this R attempt is because of her love towards him. To me, the primary motivator for her R is shame. Shame of having a failed marriage or fear of having her affair exposed. or even worst case scenario, protecting the OM.
> 
> From what I remember, OM wasn't exposed to his wife. Right RS ?


It was not the mild threat of D. He also on the same day, 9/19 called OM's home and cell. I would bet that OM ended it on 9/20. WW does not have a plan B and goes home to RS and wants R.

She was fully committed to OM and did not know what else to so as her plan A with her perfect love exploded.

She is now controlling RS through sex and is working for the most part. 

One thing needed for R is honesty and RS does not have it. They will never fully R.


----------



## LongWalk

It is possible to demand subservience. But ultimately that could also destroy their marriage.

One example of how time changes the circumstances is the destruction of objects associated with the affair. Find underwear and clothing that the WW wore to take for OM and burn it or put it in the trash. Shouldn't RS have done that ages ago?


----------



## Nucking Futs

LongWalk said:


> It is possible to demand subservience. But ultimately that could also destroy their marriage.
> 
> One example of how time changes the circumstances is the destruction of objects associated with the affair. Find underwear and clothing that the WW wore to take for OM and burn it or put it in the trash. Shouldn't RS have done that ages ago?


So now insisting on the truth is demanding subservience?


----------



## azteca1986

Nucking Futs said:


> So now insisting on the truth is demanding subservience?


Surely knowing the truth is part of that crazy concept; Actually knowing what you're forgiving.

Withholding the truth is "affair thinking". The (f)WS deciding what the BS does or does not need to know for them is "affair thinking".


----------



## LongWalk

> Originally Posted by LongWalk
> Road Scholar pretty much assumes that his WW continued the affair after Dday1. She certainly remained emotionally invested in the OM, deeply in fact. Furthermore, he had no intimacy for 6 months and that is often a sign that the WW is remaining faithful to the AP.


RS noted that she was not telling the truth:


> Nope. I confirmed that affair was still on after she initially denied it, saying "it was over in May" then admitted to just once. My toll records and phone records confirmed the rest. We had a [sic]


RS did not elaborate how the conversation ended. If she continued to deny that she had continued met OM and had sex, then I would say they are in false R and he should divorce her.

If she glumly nodded her head but declined to talk about it, then she was admitting the truth but not explicitly confessing. Will an explicit account of all the cheating now change things for the better?

RS can just hand her a calendar and tell her to describe each day she cheated and add notes about when and how they communicated and planned them. He can insist on asking what she wore. Has she changed perfume/cosmetics since then? How long were the meetings? He could add that. How many times did they have intercourse? Etc, etc.

Will he feel better extracting the truth, which will never be complete due to the passage of time?

It is always possible to play interrogator and squeeze more truth out by examining facts and questioning further. Forcing her to do this would amount to demanding subservience. Submit to inquiry until RS sees fit and then what? All semblance of normality and calm will be gone.

It would be better to go to MC and discuss the situation with someone to support a positive outcome.

In MC RS might ask his wife:

1) Does she wish she had come clean about the affair?

2) Does she feel like she is throwing sex and affection his way to stop discussion of the affair?

3) Does she think his desire to know will ever completely disappear?

4) Does she feel fatigued by his moodiness?

5) Does she feel optimistic now?

6) Does she feel that RS enjoys seeing her grovel?

7) How has RS become a better person?

8) How has he become worse?

9) Does she fear an revenge affair?

10) Could divorce be positive?

11) Is RS meeting her needs?


----------



## Thor

RS's wife might ask him some questions:

What can she do to help him heal from the damage she did to him?

What kinds of things does he want to know?

How much detail does he want?

Does he think he can deal with the full truth if he gets it?


----------



## Nucking Futs




----------



## warlock07

LongWalk said:


> It is possible to demand subservience. But ultimately that could also destroy their marriage.
> 
> One example of how time changes the circumstances is the destruction of objects associated with the affair. Find underwear and clothing that the WW wore to take for OM and burn it or put it in the trash. Shouldn't RS have done that ages ago?


 I fear the opposite of subservience is happening here. 

I've asked RS a few questions. What do you think the answers are ?

1) What would happen if you expose the affair to her father ? (Is her mother still alive ? )

2) What will happen if you ask her for the complete timeline and the number of times she met him during false R ?

3)What would happen if you took a break and slept with other people during that time ? Would she mind ?

Anyway, I agree. This is beating a dead horse. No point us arguing about RS marriage unless he partcipates.


----------



## LongWalk

TAM has these threads in which discussion goes on without the OP. RS will read as much as suits him and do as he sees fit.

Your questions are all legitimate. There is overlap with those that I suggested could be brought up in MC. 

RS's thread has many followers because there is so much tension between the OP's personality. He is not a doormat or passive beta guy. RS actually raises objections to the course he has taken. He is quite objective about his life. But he is struggling to save his family and dignity while not laying waste to his wife's affections. He doesn't want to emotionally abuse her.

Mrs Matthias and Mat are an example of how R is difficult. There are quite a few parallels. Now that they are in R she is beating herself up. He is hanging on but the problem is that while he may accept her as his wife, she doesn't have the same status in terms of character. She struggles with that a lot. RS's wife has the same shame to overcome. This actually may get worse as R goes on.

I don't think Matt wants to know more about the affair. He doesn't read what she writes on TAM. At least he doesn't post anymore. Their R has gone on without whatever details were missing. RS's R is rolling forward without all the blanks filled in.

At the end of the day, how they live and interact is more important than dredging up the affair. HappyMan always says one spouse cannot reconcile. It takes two.


----------



## larry.gray

LongWalk said:


> Mrs Matthias and Mat are an example of how R is difficult. There are quite a few parallels. Now that they are in R she is beating herself up. He is hanging on but the problem is that while he may accept her as his wife, she doesn't have the same status in terms of character. She struggles with that a lot. RS's wife has the same shame to overcome. This actually may get worse as R goes on.


I can see some similarity between RS and Matt. I do not with the WS's. 

Mrs. Mathias did TT while the affair was continuing. After that, the behavoir diverges. Mrs. Mathias didn't try rugsweeping, not after the first few weeks.


----------



## jim123

Nothing like Dr. Mathias. Matt had Mrs. M leave. He stood up for himself and his M. RS has not. WW is mostly in control. RS has his moments but she brings him back in with sex.


----------



## LongWalk

There are many differences between the two couples. Mrs Mathias got pregnant by her BH shortly into R. I don't think that was an accident but it was a good way to prove her commitment. As far as similarities go, Mrs Mathias and Mat also faced the unpleasant truth of two Ddays.

Also, neither WW suffers BPD, alcoholism. They took on lovers as a matter of free will. Mrs M and RS's wife wanted different things from their affairs.

The essential similarity is that neither woman saw themselves as the type to cheat and end up in disorder and chaos. Fear of being a divorced cheater motivated both to go into overdrive. Both begged for a chance to prove that they can earn back esteem, but the damage to their integrity is profound.

Is a WS's self worth entirely dependent on the affirmation of the BS? If they do end up divorced, don't they still have to pick themselves up and go on?

At the end of the day the BS has to tell the WW that their effort has meaning. Without any encouragement, how can the WW continue?

Is it possible that the WS beats him or herself up to assist the BS?


----------



## BjornFree

RS, you're indulging in conscious rug sweeping and that's a bad thing on many levels, its like a landmine set to blow the moment you step on it. Wounds fester if you try to cover em up without treating them. 

You're going to feel like everything is fine and you're all happy in a couple of years but there will always be this one thing which will never leave the outer recesses of your mind. You'll end up wondering about things from time to time but you'll shut up about it cos you've already decided not to bring it up. Down the line, you might even stumble upon something that takes you back to ground zero and you'll end up feeling like sh!t for not confronting the problem head on. "If I only knew....". And she's reeling you in with the sex and the remorse(??) but if I were you, she'd have to go the full mile for me to even consider R and that includes "dredging up the affair".

At the end of the day, whether you stay or leave is not relevant because you've already made your decision. But your willful blindness to this issue doesn't mean that its not there. If your wife refuses to give you the details, that only means that she's in self preservation and not really concerned about your need for the full truth. That oughta let you know where you stand.

But your not wanting the details, is a foolish choice and I honestly think that you'll regret it. My opinion.


----------



## LongWalk

Björnfree,

You are right, but it is only one aspect. If RS divorces, which is the best way to eliminate future torment, he may still feel regret. The lament will be something else: "why didn't I stick it out, she was flawed but in the end was a good woman who loved me."

Opportunity cost means RS cannot cake eat.

As to his wife throwing sex at him, well she didn't throw any at all during the half year of false R. So, he knows that doesn't go for sex without emotion.

RS should look his wife in the eye and ask her how she can stand being with him because he isn't always very loving and furthermore he doesn't know if and when he will ever be able to not see her in a negative light. Does she have the strength? What is her motivation? Does she want to bear a cross and still confront a husband in a foul mood periodically?


----------



## warlock07

LongWalk said:


> Björnfree,
> 
> You are right, but it is only one aspect. If RS divorces, which is the best way to eliminate future torment, he may still feel regret. The lament will be something else: "why didn't I stick it out, she was flawed but in the end was a good woman who loved me."
> 
> Opportunity cost means RS cannot cake eat.
> 
> As to his wife throwing sex at him, well she didn't throw any at all during the half year of false R. So, he knows that doesn't go for sex without emotion.
> 
> RS should look his wife in the eye and ask her how she can stand being with him because he isn't always very loving and furthermore he doesn't know if and when he will ever be able to not see her in a negative light. Does she have the strength? What is her motivation? Does she want to bear a cross and still confront a husband in a foul mood periodically?


LS, maybe take a break from this thread ? You are making a lot of assumptions based on guess work. 


You don't know what his wife is doing other than what RS is telling you. We can all worry about RS abusing the the power dynamic when it actually comes to it. We can all worry about RS ability to forgive her when she starts doing stuff that shows she is actually remorseful. 



> RS should look his wife in the eye and ask her how she can stand being with him because he isn't always very loving and furthermore he doesn't know if and when he will ever be able to not see her in a negative light.


This is utterly ridiculous. What are you on, LS ? 

Whatever is happening now is a consequence of her betrayal and infidelity. I don't work out => I get fat. I mess around at my job => I get fired. I repeatedly cheat on my husband and get caught both the times => There is a very realistic chance that this marriage will never workout even I work to the best of my abilities to fix it. 

She is the victim now ??


----------



## LongWalk

Warlock,

LW, not LS... where did get LS? Light Speed?



> LS, maybe take a break from this thread ? You are making a lot of assumptions based on guess work.


*If RS, requested that we drop the discussion, I'd consider it, assuming I could see that I was out of line. What assumptions am I making?*



> You don't know what his wife is doing other than what RS is telling you. We can all worry about RS abusing the the power dynamic when it actually comes to it. We can all worry about RS ability to forgive her when she starts doing stuff that shows she is actually remorseful.


*RS himself said that did not like the idea that he might be creating insecurity in his wife just to see her grovel. The goal of reconciliation ought to be a healthy relationship. RS himself questions whether their R is successful. He felt the need to tell her that she had chosen a sexual liaison and revelled in it. So her remorse has been inadequate. Wouldn't you say that there is a contradiction here?* 

LW wrote:


> RS should look his wife in the eye and ask her how she can stand being with him because he isn't always very loving and furthermore he doesn't know if and when he will ever be able to not see her in a negative light.


You responded:


> This is utterly ridiculous. What are you on, LS ?
> 
> *There is an empty whisky bottle in front of me*
> 
> Whatever is happening now is a consequence of her betrayal and infidelity. I don't work out => I get fat. I mess around at my job => I get fired. I repeatedly cheat on my husband and get caught both the times => There is a very realistic chance that this marriage will never workout even I work to the best of my abilities to fix it.
> 
> She is the victim now ??


*I don't see anything ridiculous. If RS put those questions to his wife, she would be forced to examine herself first and RS second. If RS is not healing, providing the timeline might repair their bond.

But what exactly should she provide?

Times and dates? He has these from his own detective work. Not complete but pretty damning.

Does he want more admissions about her emotional connection to OM? Her thoughts at the time?

Does he want details about sex?

He has the power to compel her to produce facts and some narrative or face divorce.

She may choose divorce rather than elaborate on the exchange of bodily fluids. Is that what RS wants? It is not wrong, it is his choice.

It is also possible that by sticking it out, in a few years time they may be in a good place with a deeper understanding and appreciation for each other.

It is your right to be skeptical that this is possible, given what she has done.

Hard_to_Detach and Racer have not yet divorced. They probably have regrets about how they handled the Dday and R. Even JustGrinding is still married. *


----------



## Buddy400

I find it hard to believe that others are still pushing for a timeline after RS is no longer asking for it. Are you looking at this from his perspective or your own?

Since DDAY2, R2 has been remorseful and committed to working on the marriage. The sex is good, RS rarely gets shut down. She initiates at least half of the time.

The problem now isn’t the WS, it’s RS. He wonders how she could ever have done this to him, the family, the kids. This thought occurs to him from time to time and eats away at him, as one would expect it to. He can’t figure out how she could have let this happen.

The most interesting thing about this story is how DDAY1 resulted in her denying RS sex and continuing the affair with no change in her behavior While RS does everything he can to be a better husband. Then comes DDAY2. He threatens her with divorce. It’s her fault. She needs to fix this now. She turns on a dime. Sex all the time, ends the affair for good, gets a different job. She’s constantly filled with remorse. Holds herself totally at fault; does all she can to make it up to RS. 

So, what’s the moral of the story? It looks like it might be “be nice to women and they’ll crap on you; be mean to them and they’ll be your love slave”. Is that really how women are? I don’t like to think so, but I’m afraid that there’s more to it than RS or I’d like to believe. I think this possibility is what bothers RS above all; that this is what his wife might be. 

My take is that she is a selfish person, would be happier not being selfish but has had no reason to be so. She had the affair because she could; for selfish reasons, it was exciting, it was an adventure, there were no consequences. Then Dday1, she was caught and much to her surprise, she was still able to get away with being selfish and worrying only about herself. It became a problem for RS to solve, not her. She tried not being selfish for a month or so, but couldn’t do it. Also, she lost respect RS for allowing her to get away with it so she stopped having sex with him. Then, on Dday2, he lays down the law. She faces consequences for her actions. I think this is all she needed to have a reason not to be selfish. I think this gave her the opportunity she needed to be the kind of person she always would have preferred to be. If only everyone hadn’t always been catering to her needs.


----------



## LongWalk

This fits RS's description of the affair and its aftermath. And given the psychological dynamic in their relationship, the stronger RS is, the harder she will work to try and be a better wife.

To what you have written one might add that she considers herself lucky to have RS – considers him a worthy man. She has a lower opinion of herself. Is she humble in a good way or lacking in self esteem?


----------



## MEM2020

ALL,

I'm astonished at how little credit you are giving RS.

IMO he has done a stellar job managing this recon. 

At the bottom of the trough his wife was:
In love with her AP, and out of love with RS. She was demonstrating this in the most definitive manner a married woman can. By enforcing monogamy with her AP (by refusing sex with her H). 

RS reconstructed her timeline for those 5 months and showed it to her. He did so to demonstrate that he knew she had lied and despite that he made the effort to discover the truth. 

Faced with the evidence she stopped denying and acknowledged the truth. 

Other steps he took, which I believe showed a genuine strength of character he forced her to:
- change jobs
- go NC with her AP

In the meantime she has clearly fallen back in love with him AND he is now being treated in a very loving and considerate manner. In terms of her priorities, he is now a much higher priority to her than before the affair. I believe that is a combination of love and genuine remorse on her part. 

In terms of a true recon, I give the one an A. 

As for publicly shaming her, he didn't want to do that. And frankly, given how committed she seems to be by her daily actions, it looks like he didn't need to do that. 

I'll close with one final observation. He and she both know that for 5 months the other man was in her head, and in a virtual sense lying in their bed - between them - keeping them apart. 

That was a massive betrayal. He has repeatedly reminded her of that and punished her for it. And she's taken her medicine and is doing her best to make amends in and out of bed. 

He took the marriage from a zero to a 9. And yet, over one detail of the mechanics of recon, he continues to get raked over the coals.....






BjornFree said:


> RS, you're indulging in conscious rug sweeping and that's a bad thing on many levels, its like a landmine set to blow the moment you step on it. Wounds fester if you try to cover em up without treating them.
> 
> You're going to feel like everything is fine and you're all happy in a couple of years but there will always be this one thing which will never leave the outer recesses of your mind. You'll end up wondering about things from time to time but you'll shut up about it cos you've already decided not to bring it up. Down the line, you might even stumble upon something that takes you back to ground zero and you'll end up feeling like sh!t for not confronting the problem head on. "If I only knew....". And she's reeling you in with the sex and the remorse(??) but if I were you, she'd have to go the full mile for me to even consider R and that includes "dredging up the affair".
> 
> At the end of the day, whether you stay or leave is not relevant because you've already made your decision. But your willful blindness to this issue doesn't mean that its not there. If your wife refuses to give you the details, that only means that she's in self preservation and not really concerned about your need for the full truth. That oughta let you know where you stand.
> 
> But your not wanting the details, is a foolish choice and I honestly think that you'll regret it. My opinion.


----------



## Buddy400

LongWalk said:


> To what you have written one might add that she considers herself lucky to have RS – considers him a worthy man. She has a lower opinion of herself. Is she humble in a good way or lacking in self esteem?


I would say that she has confirmed that her opinion of herself is closer to what she always thought it was than the opinion that others seemed to have of her. Her opinion of RS has increased. She is happy with the current alignment and was uncomfortable with the previous situation. Humble in a good way.


----------



## LongWalk

Early on in the thread whenever RS said that he was going to take a course of action that was a compromise, e.g., going on the weekend where he knew sex would be thrown at him before he had cleared up the FAQ on WTF happened between wife and OM, he came right out and admitted that he might be acting against the sort of advice TAM would generally offer.

Now he has said something: if his wife broke NC, it would result in divorce. I think that resolution is evident to his wife. That is attractive to her. He is finished with BS.


----------



## TRy

Road Scholar said:


> I confirmed that affair was still on after she initially denied it, saying "it was over in May" then admitted to just once.


 When you are talking about a betrayal as serious as this, putting "just" in front of "once", shows that she does not get it. She should never use the word "just" when she is talking about this.


----------



## treyvion

MEM11363 said:


> ALL,
> 
> I'm astonished at how little credit you are giving RS.
> 
> IMO he has done a stellar job managing this recon.
> 
> At the bottom of the trough his wife was:
> In love with her AP, and out of love with RS. She was demonstrating this in the most definitive manner a married woman can. By enforcing monogamy with her AP (by refusing sex with her H).
> 
> RS reconstructed her timeline for those 5 months and showed it to her. He did so to demonstrate that he knew she had lied and despite that he made the effort to discover the truth.
> 
> Faced with the evidence she stopped denying and acknowledged the truth.
> 
> Other steps he took, which I believe showed a genuine strength of character he forced her to:
> - change jobs
> - go NC with her AP
> 
> In the meantime she has clearly fallen back in love with him AND he is now being treated in a very loving and considerate manner. In terms of her priorities, he is now a much higher priority to her than before the affair. I believe that is a combination of love and genuine remorse on her part.
> 
> In terms of a true recon, I give the one an A.
> 
> As for publicly shaming her, he didn't want to do that. And frankly, given how committed she seems to be by her daily actions, it looks like he didn't need to do that.
> 
> I'll close with one final observation. He and she both know that for 5 months the other man was in her head, and in a virtual sense lying in their bed - between them - keeping them apart.
> 
> That was a massive betrayal. He has repeatedly reminded her of that and punished her for it. And she's taken her medicine and is doing her best to make amends in and out of bed.
> 
> He took the marriage from a zero to a 9. And yet, over one detail of the mechanics of recon, he continues to get raked over the coals.....


Nice analysis. This is why hysterical bonding is important. The repeated conjugations will push the OM further and further out of her mind.


----------



## LongWalk

He never clearly explained what her reply was when he presented the toll, telephone, etc. evidence. Presumably she more or less fell silent and that constituted admission. When he pressed for more she apologized. The lying was over.

re: hysterical bonding
It would be interesting to read the account of a WW who successfully reconciled after a torrid affair.

Sex with BH might not always be as raw and raunchy but it may have a deeper meaning.


----------



## NoChoice

Buddy400 said:


> I find it hard to believe that others are still pushing for a timeline after RS is no longer asking for it. Are you looking at this from his perspective or your own?
> 
> Since DDAY2, R2 has been remorseful and committed to working on the marriage. The sex is good, RS rarely gets shut down. She initiates at least half of the time.
> 
> The problem now isn’t the WS, it’s RS. He wonders how she could ever have done this to him, the family, the kids. This thought occurs to him from time to time and eats away at him, as one would expect it to. He can’t figure out how she could have let this happen.
> 
> The most interesting thing about this story is how DDAY1 resulted in her denying RS sex and continuing the affair with no change in her behavior While RS does everything he can to be a better husband. Then comes DDAY2. He threatens her with divorce. It’s her fault. She needs to fix this now. She turns on a dime. Sex all the time, ends the affair for good, gets a different job. She’s constantly filled with remorse. Holds herself totally at fault; does all she can to make it up to RS.
> 
> So, what’s the moral of the story? It looks like it might be “be nice to women and they’ll crap on you; be mean to them and they’ll be your love slave”. Is that really how women are? I don’t like to think so, but I’m afraid that there’s more to it than RS or I’d like to believe. I think this possibility is what bothers RS above all; that this is what his wife might be.
> 
> My take is that she is a selfish person, would be happier not being selfish but has had no reason to be so. She had the affair because she could; for selfish reasons, it was exciting, it was an adventure, there were no consequences. Then Dday1, she was caught and much to her surprise, she was still able to get away with being selfish and worrying only about herself. It became a problem for RS to solve, not her. She tried not being selfish for a month or so, but couldn’t do it. Also, she lost respect RS for allowing her to get away with it so she stopped having sex with him. *Then, on Dday2, he lays down the law. She faces consequences for her actions. I think this is all she needed to have a reason not to be selfish. I think this gave her the opportunity she needed to be the kind of person she always would have preferred to be. If only everyone hadn’t always been catering to her needs.*


Or possibly the newness wore off with the OM and she realized how empty her thrilling adventure had become. All the while, RS was working on being a better H and maybe she saw the grass really was greener at home. Just another possibility. In any event, she does seem to have done a 180 according to RS.


----------



## LongWalk

What amazes about RS's thread is this sudden moment that came after 6 months of fighting OM's influence. He looked into her phone. His gut must have been screaming at him to do so. The ugly truth came out; he was at once ready to divorce. She saw that there was no chance to lie further. Suddenly she was the powerless one in their relationship, perhaps not completely but once he rejected her first sexual overture, everything must have been different.

How often in our lives are we struck by such huge moments? Not often. Not often at all. She must also be struck by the wonder of it all.

If RS were a rigid person, he never would have conveyed this so impressively.


----------



## warlock07

On one end, we have posters like bff who thank the community immensely even though the help he received is minimal and most of what he did was his own doing..

RS is the complete opposite. I don't understand the dynamic. And this has nothing to do with whether he takes advice posted here or not(RDMU). Just when the thread us dying down, he makes one comment just to stir up things again and goes silent for a few weeks. .. He doesn't participate in his own thread. It is as if he enjoys the drama the thread generates.


----------



## LongWalk

He is not the only one to come and go. There is no obligation check in every day.

His last couple of posts give a lot of support to your contention that getting past the affair is difficult. There is no enjoyment in it for him that I can detect.


----------



## NoChoice

warlock07 said:


> On one end, we have posters like bff who thank the community immensely even though the help he received is minimal and most of what he did was his own doing..
> 
> RS is the complete opposite. I don't understand the dynamic. And this has nothing to do with whether he takes advice posted here or not(RDMU). Just when the thread us dying down, he makes one comment just to stir up things again and goes silent for a few weeks. .. He doesn't participate in his own thread. It is as if he enjoys the drama the thread generates.


Maybe Warlock we keep posting and exchanging theories to help hone our advice giving abilities for the next poster. To glean insight and understanding from how each of us views the same thread, even after the OP loses interest or is too caught up in life to participate right now.


----------



## NoChoice

LongWalk said:


> What amazes about RS's thread is this sudden moment that came after 6 months of fighting OM's influence. He looked into her phone. His gut must have been screaming at him to do so. The ugly truth came out; he was at once ready to divorce. She saw that there was no chance to lie further. Suddenly she was the powerless one in their relationship, perhaps not completely but once he rejected her first sexual overture, everything must have been different.
> 
> How often in our lives are we struck by such huge moments? Not often. Not often at all. She must also be struck by the wonder of it all.
> 
> If RS were a rigid person, he never would have conveyed this so impressively.


Agreed


----------



## Road Scholar

warlock07 said:


> On one end, we have posters like bff who thank the community immensely even though the help he received is minimal and most of what he did was his own doing..
> 
> RS is the complete opposite. I don't understand the dynamic. And this has nothing to do with whether he takes advice posted here or not(RDMU). Just when the thread us dying down, he makes one comment just to stir up things again and goes silent for a few weeks. .. He doesn't participate in his own thread. It is as if he enjoys the drama the thread generates.


Warlock & all TAM;
Please do not take my periodic disappearance from the site as lack of appreciation or interest in postings. I do eventually catch up to them, read all and then digest all the vies and try to add my comments and insights when I can. I am very very thankfull for all the posters here, even the ones I don't agree with necessarily. Again it keeps me honest and challenges my thought process through all of this. I'm trying not to let this whole thing consume my life more than it has. I don't want to rugsweep but I do want to eventually put this behind me one way or another and move on and try ot focus on better, more positive things. 

The posters on this site have helped me more than you all know. So thank you from the bottom of my heart.

The AP's wife is aware. I sent numerous letters to her and her neighbors after Dday2. She eventually got them. I don't know if she was aware of the affair beforehand, but was certainly made aware via the letters if not. I have talked the the POS, prior to Dday 2 and after Dday2, he is lucky I am working on being a forgiving person and not a nutjob. I know where he works and lives via the magic of the internet. I have his work and personal phone and emails. The POS is on cheaterville, search his name and it comes up on first page with his picture and a short recap of the dirty deeds. Maybe 300K hits. I think his friends and family are probably aware at this point and likely some folks at work too. I did not blow him up as I should have right away and I have paid dearly for that. I tried to take the higher road and got burned. I still think about blowing him up today, but then feel like that would be purely revenge versus protecting my family and the thought of doing it soley to hurt him and take revenge on him and his family bothers me, yet part of me still wants to do it. Again trying to maintain my own dignity. I could justify it. I gave him fair warning I would. If I were to contact his boss, the CEO whom I know, my wife would also be outed. I would hurt her reputation in the process. Part of me is less concerned about that now, and still I struggle with allowing him "getting away" with it. I'm sure he has his own hell to deal with, but I'm also sure he reflects fondly on nailing my wife.

Here is my timeline that I constructed painfully and have tried to protect the names. It's damning enough, but I'm sure there are details and hookups, maybe even trips I'm not aware of. How much worse could it get really. Clearly she thought she was in love with him and was willing to lose it all. Now she is back fighting for us and the life we have created and invested the majority of our lives building together. I haven't exactly made it easy. I waffle from one week to the next because of the gaslighting, betrayal, and deceit. 

She fell out of love with me because of her reasons mainly, her weakness and neediness, her selfish tendencies and insecurities. I unknowingly contributed. I didn't shower her with affection - not my way. She needed more of that. I get it now. She agrees with all the above by the way. I don't blame myself anymore but I take ownership of my part of it. She takes ownership of her part. She acknowledges what a hypocrit she became or always was. She judged others harshly, almost cruelly. Now she has to look at herself and knowing what she did, judge herself. I know that is hard for her, but I don't want her to let herself off the hook too easily. I know she beats herself up about it, but she also wants to move on from it as fast as she can. She tells me it was like an addiction, how crappy she felt through it all, how guilty she felt. I remind her at any point she could have stopped, come home to me and our family. It was a decision and she made it over and over and over. Guilt and addiction be damned. Her allegiance was to him. Until I had it. Then as she said the switch flipped. Maybe by then I had demonstrated enough love to her that it was able to flip back so easily. I'll never know exactly what allowed her to see me for who I was rather than who she deamonized me to be. But it happened and regardless where we end up, I'm glad it happened. She is at least more of the person I used to know - just more flawed now than either one of us could have ever predicted. We're both in better places mentally and spiritually. I don't know if the damage can be repaired or not but we are both trying.

I am no saint and I need to remind myself of this because in all my hurt and pain, I find myself becoming self-righteous and I know that I have had misteps along the way too. I have hurt her even though I love her, so I can see how that part of it could happen. I guess that is why I am trying to forgive and grow from this to a better relationship and marriage. We are all imperfect to varying degrees, we all need compassion and grace maybe that is how each of us becomes a better person - when someone shows us the right way.

I apologize for the long post and for the long timeline about to follow. Here is what I know. It's been a rough week and a rough 1.5 years. Never thought I would be here but I am here and I'm trying to salvage something from the ashes - for me and for my kids, and yes even my wife now that she seems to want the same things I do. 

Thank you TAM and all the posters that have been on this journey with me in cyberspace.


----------



## Road Scholar

Timeline of A
1/19 – Good friend’s birthday celebration at neighborhood pub. 
2/2 – Her friends from college over for a dinner party at our house. (Affair may have already started based on wife’s behavior. For sure there was an emotional affair, but may already have gotten physical)
2/3 – Superbowl party with friends.
2/5 – Her email to Gary, “FYI. Assuming you haven't already booked one (ha ha ha ha ha ha), we can share a car to the airport.” (Affair has probably already started) This email leading up to trip to San Francisco. She invited Gary to participate in scheduled meetings.
2/9 – We go to see our favorite band with good friends. Great night out.
2/11 - Email to me on Chinese New Year celebration with friends. 
“Hi- Are we going to chinese new year? I think it will be fun. I need to RSVP either way so let me know what you think. Have a safe flight. Love you!”
2/12 – Found out her cousin has cancer 
“Lots of sad news today. Would be easier if you were here. On the phone with my cousin. He has cancer . Luckily it is a curable kind- lymphoma. Right now they are monitoring and then will figure out what needs to be done. Sucks. Can you come home now?” Me: “ I’m sorry. I’m sure he will be ok. What is the treatment?” Her “Yes Dave. Not sure. He promised to let me know after he meets with the doctor next month.” Me: “Yes I’m sorry. Go enjoy the night tonight with the kids and don’t stress about anything. Say hi to your dad for me and bring binoculars for him.” (Gave her and dad tix to NHL game)
2/11-2/15 – I’m in Phoenix for the week.
2/15 – Friend’s 50th bowling party 
I didn’t go but she really wanted me to go…why? Feeling guilty about the emotional and possible physical affair and/or plans to hook up in San Francisco.
2/15 - Email to Gary regarding conference in San Francisco on 2/26 at Waldorf Astoria, NY
Was this a flight to NY then a flight to SF same week? Were you planning to meet in NY then fly to SF together?

From: Her
Date: Feb 15, 2013 4:34 PM
Subject: Re: Dinner Reservations in SF
To: Work Colleague
Hello Jeff- 
If Tyler is in San Fran it would be great to have him join us. I talked to Gary and it sounds like he is available. It will be good for you two to meet because he now has responsibility for sales so you can bring him up to speed on all the work your company has done/is doing for them. We may include Mark as well- I think it would be great for you and Joe to meet him but let's not add him to the invite yet. I will see if that will work first but maybe include him on the reservation count. Have a great weekend.
Her

Clearly she was behind bringing Gary out to this meeting to spend time with him alone. I believe she pursued him first and made herself available to him.

2/15 – Invitation to friend’s house for dinner 
2/16 – Close family friend’s dad services/wake; 
She and her brother’s girlfriend have their “heart to heart” about their situation and how she doesn’t want her brother to get hurt, meanwhile having an EA/PA at the same time. Her brother’s girlfriend dumped him twice for another guy and then they got back together. At least she had the decency to end the first relationship before moving to the second one. 
2/16 - Chinese New Year celebration with friends 
2/18 -2/21 –Me in Baltimore
2/21 – She is super stressed and wants to fly to spring break instead of driving as planned - doesn’t want to be in the car with me for 17 hours? Beginning to distance herself from me and demonize me.
From: Her 
Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 11:36 AM
To: Me
Subject: Colorado
Hi- I think I would like to fly to colorado. The thought of driving is very daunting to me right now. I think we could get flights AND an SUV for $500 per person. Are you OK with that?
2/22 – Daddy daughter dance me and my baby girl go to dance together.
2/23 – Daughter’s talent show & dinner at friend’s house
2/26 – Email from her possibly having second thoughts about meeting in San Francisco
From: Her 
Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2013 12:20 PM
To: Me
Subject: Re: ISATs
Fine. Just finished a meeting. Another one at one. Been on calls all morning. My trip looks iffy right now. 
2/28 – San Francisco, CA – last night of Salesforce conference? THE FULL ON AFFAIR BEGINS AT HOTEL VITALESAN FRANCI 
3/2 – Invitation friend to come over with their kids/family to celebrate St. Patrick’s day and go to parade
3/5 – Neighbor’s wake – She is out of town somewhere – I think Dallas 
3/5 – Big thunderstorm and rain. Flooding all over town. I’m at home dealing with it. 
3/5 – 3/6 Her in Dallas at Westin Galleria 
One of the Dallas trips she comes home early to spend the night with him at the hotel instead of coming home to our family. Very likely with Gary at the Westin Galleria but she has not admitted to this.
03/05/13 06:44 AM TOLL ($0.75) ISTHA Plz 32-Ohare East-Ln 01 32 
03/06/13 06:10 PM TOLL ($0.75) ISTHA Plz 33-Irving Park Rd-Ln 53 33 

3/7 – Email from Her to Me:
Hi- I can't find my Dell laptop charger. Last time I had it was at home- have you seen it? Thanks. This is when my gut started to hurt. Something just didn’t feel right but I said and did nothing. I ignored my instincts as I have done in the past. Took no action!!
3/7 – Email from her to Gary:
Hi- I got my special delivery this afternoon. Of course Weezer had to be the first song. Love it- thank you. He made 4 CD’s for her during the course of the affair and sent them to her at work.
3/8 – Accenture Women’s Day; Mayoral candidate at neighbor’s house; Out of town earlier in week or other late meetings;
She was acting extremely odd, rude and obnoxious. Intoxicated. Was the Accenture thing even real with work colleague or was she with Gary
3/9 – St Pat’s day parade in town with friends/family
3/13 – She in Dallas at the Westin Galleria 
One of the Dallas trips she comes home early to spend the night with him at the hotel instead of coming home to our family.

03/13/13 08:34 AM TOLL ($0.75) ISTHA Plz 32-Ohare East-Ln 01 32 
03/14/13 05:55 PM TOLL ($0.75) ISTHA Plz 33-Irving Park Rd-Ln 53 33 

Flight Information:
Reserved: AMERICAN AIRLINES 2315
Class: Economy
Seats: 22D
Departs: Chicago O'Hare, IL - ORD
Date: Mar 13,2013 Time: 9:45 AM
Arrives: Dallas Ft Worth, TX - DFW
Date: Mar 13,2013 Time: 12:15 PM

Hotel Information:
Reserved: THE WESTIN GALLERIA
Address: 13340 Dallas Parkway
 Dallas TX 75240 US
Phone: 972-934-9494
Check-In: Mar 13,2013
Check-Out: Mar 14,2013
Hotel Rate: 209.00 USD per night
Confirmation: C375531188

Flight Information:
Reserved: AMERICAN AIRLINES 2360
Class: Economy
Seats: 27D
Departs: Dallas Ft Worth, TX - DFW
Date: Mar 14,2013 Time: 3:05 PM
Arrives: Chicago O'Hare, IL - ORD
Date: Mar 14,2013 Time: 5:20 PM
3/16 – Friends come over to go to concert with neighbors. 
She gets extremely drunk and got mad at me for innocently dancing with our neighbor. What a hypocrite!
3/17 – Her and friend work on resume at our house
From: Her 
Sent: Monday, March 18, 2013 3:30 PM
To: Me
Subject: Re: hey
Hi- Yes I can, no problem. Did you see my invite last week about dinner Thursday? Are you good with the kids that night? Plans to go to dinner with Gary at nice restaurant in the city.

3/18 – Gary in town
3/19 – Her, Dad and brother with kids for his birthday celebration at Benihana. 
She insists I stay at my work function. Continues to distance herself from me and demonize.

3/20 – Email from her to Gary
From: Her
Date: Mar 20, 2013 2:26 P
Subject: Fwd: complimentary event in Chicago
To: "Garyl" 

We somehow got on the same nerd distribution list.

I’d like to personally invite you to this event "Digital Disruption: Winning In The Brave New World Of Certain Uncertainty" on Wednesday, April 10 at 5:30 p.m. at The Mid-America Club in Chicago. 
Dinner and drinks will be served.
I have included your invitation so please get registered as soon as possible as we expect a full event. Please feel welcome to extend this invitation to any other of your Executives.

You can use this link to register: Register now, or call me directly.

Where:
The Mid-America Club
200 East Randolph Drive
80th Floor
Chicago, IL 60601

3/21 – 9-11 am Bloomingdale/Itasca Army Trail Rd then back to Westin

03/21/13 09:18 AM TOLL ($0.95) ISTHA Plz 73-Army Trail Rd-Ln 62 73 
03/21/13 10:52 AM TOLL ($0.95) ISTHA Plz 73-Army Trail Rd-Ln 54 73 
03/21/13 11:00 AM TOLL ($0.55) ISTHA Plz 56-Highland Ave.-Ln 03 56 

3/21 – She and Gary go to the Girl and the Goat 

Especially painful since this is where I had taken her for a special anniversary dinner just months beforehand. I thought of it as our special place and a special memory for me. Just as music was “our thing” now it all feels tainted.

3/24-3/29 Spring Break with family in Colorado. 

We flew her mom out to meet us and spend the week together. WS wasn’t really there - distant, hostile, angry. Felt like she didn’t want to be there. Very little time together. Duty sex 1x. I felt very distant from her. No time in the pool or hot tub together. She would stay in the room to contact him while kids and I would swim, etc.

3/31 – Easter Sunday at my sister’s house. She’s on cloud nine. She has this great and I mean great (mine) family that she is a part of and loves her dearly and meanwhile has a lover on the side that props her up too. Best of both. She was actually playful with me sits on my lap, sorta to my surprise. I remember feeling very happy & blessed.

4/2 – With Gary at the Westin
04/02/13 08:37 AM TOLL ($0.55) ISTHA Plz 56-Highland Ave.-Ln 02 56 
04/02/13 06:43 PM TOLL ($0.75) ISTHA Plz 52-Meyers Rd-Ln 54 52 

4/2 – Her email to me:
These meetings are running super late. I can try to skip out but my applications are being covered last. 6 may be tight. Any chance you can get the kids just in case? If not I will just leave. Thanks

4/3 –Product Management team dinner @ Wed Apr 3, 2013
4/3 – With Gary at Westin 

04/03/13 07:54 AM TOLL ($0.75) ISTHA Plz 51-York Rd-Ln 54 51 
04/03/13 03:15 PM TOLL ($0.55) ISTHA Plz 56-Highland Ave.-Ln 03 56 

4/5 – Fondue at neighbors
4/5 – I send her the invite to Of Monsters and Men concert 
4/6 – Working on my son’s culture project

From: Her 
Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 3:15 PM
To: Me
Subject: Re: Team Dinner
I am in Dallas that day. I get back late but can find someone to get the kids after school- shouldn't be a problem.

4/8 – She leaves early to get to work 

From: Her 
Sent: Monday, April 08, 2013 11:55 AM
To: Me
Subject: Re: Roster
8:50 flight so I will leave the house after the kids leave. If you need to get in early I can take care of the morning. Thanks for getting the out this AM.
From: Her 
Sent: Monday, April 08, 2013 9:45 AM
To: Me and Neighbor
Subject: This week
Hi - Just wanted to send a quick note with the plans for this week. Neighbor will pick up the kids tomorrow right after school at 3. She can keep them until RS gets home for dinner or if it is going late they can spend the night. I will let RS make that call.
Neighbor also volunteered to take the kids for late start on Wednesday. RS, please just let Jenny know What time you need to drop them off. I am home Wednesday afternoon.
Thanks!!!!
4/9 – Her in Dallas supposedly 

One of the Dallas trips she comes home early to spend the night with him at the hotel instead of coming home to our family. It sounds as it this may have been when she came home early, but who knows? Sickening.
04/09/13 07:25 AM TOLL ($0.75) ISTHA Plz 32-Ohare East-Ln 01 32 
04/10/13 04:01 PM TOLL ($0.75) ISTHA Plz 33-Irving Park Rd-Ln 52 33 


4/12 – Email from her
We are rolling out Salesforce.com Customer Service- finished the first release last week (yippie) but we are kicking off the "blueprinting" phase later April 22, 23. I need to be there for the first two of the four days. I will have to leave the second day early to get home in time for daughter’s singing performance on the 23rd. I leave April 22am, return April 23 by 4:30. 
May is still up in the air.
This is the email that set up her trip to NY to celebrate Gary’s 50th birthday celebration. What an accomplished liar. The details and all the fun little comments (yippie) give you no reason or doubt to question anything.

From: Her 
Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 9:36 AM
To: Me
Subject: Re: This week
I just want to talk about where to pull the money from. I am so sorry we are in this situation. I need to figure out what to do to cover us from anything really bad happening. I am sorry.
My Reply: “It’s not something to stress about we have $$ and this is a short-term thing to help your dad out of a jam. We’re not hurting much because of it. The impact is minor and the money would just be sitting there. It will be fine.”
Her father is in a bad financial situation. He has put us in a bad financial situation as a result, supporting him and his poor real estate investment decisions. I have been nothing but supportive from day 1. Money while nice to have isn’t that important to me – it’s family and friends. That is what life is about. Not what you do or how much you make. It’s how you treat people that counts.
From: Her 
Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 1:26 PM
To: Me
Subject: Showing
OMG- on the phone with my dad- he had a showing yesterday! no news yet but at least it is something.
My reply: Great. It will sell. It’s a great place.
4/17 – WS meets “friends” for a drink 

From: Her 
Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 3:13 PM
To: Me
Subject: Leaving
Hi I am leaving for my big sister duties. Still ok with me having a quick drink with Friend? She has to be home by 7 so it won't be late but I won't be able to get the kids. If you run into an issue please call me by 545 so I can leave to get them. Thanks, see you later.
My reply: Should be fine. I will get the dry cleaning and then grab the kids at 630 from Religious Education. Give her a smooch for me.


4/22 – She in NY with Gary birthday boy’s 50th 

04/22/13 05:54 AM TOLL ($0.75) ISTHA Plz 32-Ohare East-Ln 01 32 
04/23/13 04:58 PM TOLL ($0.75) ISTHA Plz 33-Irving Park Rd-Ln 52 33 


Her email: We are rolling out Salesforce.com Customer Service- finished the first release last week (yippie) but we are kicking off the "blueprinting" phase later April 22, 23. I need to be there for the first two of the four days. I will have to leave the second day early to get home in time for Emma's emerson singers performance on the 23rd. I leave April 22am, return April 23 by 4:30. 
May is still up in the air.
4/29 – Her email to meet Gary all day.
My team invited me for pizza and drinks to celebrate Marianne's last day. I would like to go, can you pick up the kids? 
She’s out with Gary until very late….Westin. Big blow up when she get’s home. We stay up half the night talking. I could tell she was checked out and half way out the door. This is my wakeup call that we were in trouble. It hit me like a ton of bricks. She gets up early, we hug, kiss and she leaves to go be with him the next morning at the Westin. 
04/29/13 08:05 AM TOLL ($0.75) ISTHA Plz 32-Ohare East-Ln 01 32 
04/29/13 10:24 PM TOLL ($0.75) ISTHA Plz 33-Irving Park Rd-Ln 52 33 
04/30/13 06:07 AM TOLL ($0.75) ISTHA Plz 32-Ohare East-Ln 04 32 
04/30/13 08:00 AM TOLL ($0.75) ISTHA Plz 33-Irving Park Rd-Ln 52 33 
04/30/13 08:09 AM TOLL ($0.75) ISTHA Plz 51-York Rd-Ln 54 51 
04/30/13 04:51 PM TOLL ($0.75) ISTHA Plz 52-Meyers Rd-Ln 54 52 

4/30 – Her email to me that morning after leaving Gary:
I am trying my best to not break down at work but I wanted to pass along the information of the woman that I am going to talk to. I left her a message today but have not heard back.
Find a Therapist, Psychologist, Counselor - Psychology Today
If I don't feel a connection with her on the phone I will probably start my search again but I am hopeful that she will work out.
My Reply: Ok thanks. I will try to find someone today also. I have been fighting back my emotions all day. I know you can’t see how, but I am still in shock. I just never thought it was as bad as you thought it was. Even though we fight and disagree I still thought we were basically good. I can tell you have been looking for something different for some time in my mind which explains the change in your behavior. I just didn’t realize it or want to believe it. 

5/1 – DDay #1; I confront her just before we are supposed to leave for hockey playoff game with my son. Found hotel cards in the am in her top drawer then they disappeared. She admitted to the affair. I felt the blood run out of my body. Horrible night. Did not want to disappoint my son so we went to the game. Miserable. Torture.
5/10 – My Email to Her: Can we end our conversations with “I love you”? You didn’t hear me say it and hung up. I understand you are busy but we need to start behaving how we want to be together and doing and saying the things that will make us both happy.
I hope you have a great day!
I love you.
Her reply: Yes we can. Sorry. I love you too and really hope you have a good day. Love, Her

5/22 – Of Monsters of Men with friends. Had fun but I was very much still in a lot of pain. Tried to put on a brave front for her and our friends. She comments how buff I feel, which makes me feel good as I was working out like crazy trying to keep my sanity. All BS though.
6/3 – Her email to me. One of very very few with any length to them.
From: Her 
Sent: Monday, June 03, 2013 11:37 AM
To: Me
Subject: This past weekend
Hi- I know we've talked about this already but because of my deep guilt around what I've done I find myself justifying things or "blowing them off" that I really shouldn't because I am not OK with them and we need to stop sweeping things under the rug if we are going to get through this. Please know that I am not saying these things to make you feel bad (because I know you are already beating yourself up) and I know we will have setbacks (driven by both of our behavior) but the two incidents from this weekend are very upsetting to me and we need to work through them with our therapists as very recent, real examples of issues with our relationship. We talked about most of this in person so I am not hiding behind email and I didn't want to call and get all upset at work. I wanted to share with you before your appointment tonight so you could talk about it with your therapist. I also want to talk about it with Claudia. 
Thursday I was very happy that you were going out with your friends. I genuinely wanted you to get away and try to take your mind off of things. But it turned out to be a really bad thing. I've shared with you over the past several weeks that one of my biggest issues in our relationship is when you go out and what happens- in this example, not answering my multiple calls and texts. I know now that you were upset with me (which still doesn't make it OK) but at the time I had no clue. Over the past several weeks you have said you totally get it and understand and will never do it again but the first time that it is put to the test you choose to disregard everything you've said. When that happens I feel insecure, mad, disrespected and I lose trust in what you say. The hardest part for me is that it would have been so easy to call or text me and would have shown me that you really do mean all the things you've said over the past few weeks. For the life of me I don't understand why you didn't.
Sunday morning was terrible. I know that you felt rejected by me because I we didn't do something before son returned. But that doesn't make it ok to verbally and emotionally abuse me- I'm sorry but that is what you did. You threatened to ruin my career, to tell our children and family "the type of mother/person" I really am, told me to move out, said you were done, told me that I am incapable of having a real relationship, that I can't give you what you need and never have been able to, threw my dad's financial situation in my face, etc etc. Similar to Thursday, this is equally upsetting because it has happened a couple of times since we started down this process and each time you acknowledge that it is completely wrong but seem to justify it to some extent because I have hurt you so badly and because it is such an emotional time. Every time it has happened since this started (and I don't know if the 4ish times is a lot or not) I tell myself that it won't happen again because you get it but it just happened again yesterday. I then go to my defense mechanism and justify it by saying, he doesn't really mean those things and he is just really hurt and it's my fault he is hurt so maybe I deserve it. We can't continue with this pattern because each time it is more and more destructive. I feel like you are saying one thing and your actions are not always showing that what you say is truly how you feel. I know I am guilty of the same thing and I know I have made a ton of mistakes and will make mistakes through this process. I am not judging you or trying to make you feel bad. I am judging us and the behaviors we bring out in each other and trying to figure out how we change them. 
Sorry for the email, I hope you know it came from a good place. 

Thank you for the email. I know it comes from a good place and this is probably the single biggest thing I need to work on, among many many character flaws.
When I get my feelings hurt whether intentional or not (it wasn’t - you did nothing intentional to hurt me), whether I overreact or not (and I did on both occasions) I feel I am justified in saying/doing whatever to hurt the other person back. I don’t know why and I know I am NOT justified. What gives me that right? I know it’s wrong. That is my defense mechanism I guess – to prove it doesn’t hurt me. But it does. It hurts me to hurt you back. When I shut down and get silent it hurts me. When I say those horrible things to you it hurts me. So that is pretty twisted. I’m doing something I know hurts you and me and yet I continue doing it. Clearly, the better thing to do is not say anything, to think it through rationally, but I ignore any rational feelings or thoughts and let my emotions carry me away to a very bad, very ugly place. Thursday would have turned out so differently had I taken a different approach. Same with Sunday. How differently things would be right now had I called to say, “I’m hurting, but I miss you. I’ll be home as soon as I can. I stayed out longer than I ever thought” (the truth) or if I came home from the gym and just said, “I’m sorry. I love you. I felt hurt and I lashed out at you before I left and that’s the last thing I want to do right now.” (the truth) I didn’t. I fed the hurt feeling, I fed the negative feelings, instead of focusing on LOVE, I allowed myself to say and do horrible things, hateful things as you said. I don’t know why, but I do know the damage is done and has created more hurt in need of repair on top of everything else. If it can be repaired and I only hope that it still can. I am sorry. I have done this with us for too long. I recognize that. I know that I have caused this rift between us with my hurtful words and hurtful ways. I am always thinking the good will make up for the bad. A little extra effort on this or that or trying harder here or there. Pick up some nice flowers, make a nice dinner, buy something she will like, etc. etc. etc. Well if there’s enough bad, the good doesn’t make up for the bad. The bad makes even the good turn bad and tarnish. You deserve better. You really do. At this point I can only say that I will try my hardest to change this pattern I have gotten into and rather than trying to hurt whomever I felt has hurt me, I will accept it and try to look at it more objectively and “let it go”. I guess I’m not very different than my father after all. He was also a bit of a loose cannon, very emotional and was a “great guy” but could also be very hurtful to those he loved. I don’t think I am a terrible person, but I have allowed myself to get into some very negative very bad behaviors which have damaged our relationship to the point it is at now. I will have to live with that realization. I will forever live with knowing I contributed significantly to our failures. I’m my own worst enemy in so many ways and I need to work on my own flaws instead of focusing on everyone else’s. I have enough of them and I know I am far far from perfect. Please don’t give up on me. Please don’t give up on us. I am capable of change and I know we can be great together - as I feel we have been at times. I do love you and I have not shown you that over the years. Maybe I don’t know how to show you properly or do it consistently or steadily to the point that you really believe it. I just keep screwing it up over and over and over – never learning from past mistakes. All I know is I want to change how I treat you. I need to learn how to treat you the way I feel about you instead of putting walls all around ME and distancing myself. What is so hard about that? My pride, my fear, my insecurities, my selfishness, my immaturity gets in the way of my love for you. I want us to be happy together forever because I know I love you and I am in love with you. I also know how hollow that must sound after this weekend, but it is true. I sincerely hope you have feelings for me as well even though I’m a big dumb jerk. I have asked you for so many chances over the years and I guess I am asking you for another one now. I know you’re tired of the words, and the talk and it’s time for action. These are such critical and dangerous times for us. There is no room for error and there’s no room to repeat old patterns which got us here. 
I am sorry and I will forever love you. 

6/6 – The affair begins again. She spends all day with Gary possibly all afternoon. 
06/06/13 07:24 AM TOLL ($0.75) ISTHA Plz 54-Route 83-Ln 03 54 
06/06/13 01:48 PM TOLL ($0.75) ISTHA Plz 51-York Rd-Ln 71 51 
06/06/13 02:07 PM TOLL ($0.55) ISTHA Plz 56-Highland Ave.-Ln 02 56 
06/06/13 05:41 PM TOLL ($0.75) ISTHA Plz 52-Meyers Rd-Ln 54 52 


On Jun 6, 2013, at 9:30 AM, RS wrote:
Hi Her Boss,
I was thinking of trying to surprise WS at some point for a surprise getaway weekend (sort of a post 40th celebration) at some point and wanted to check dates with you. I was thinking of a Thu and/or Fri that might work for her schedule and I know you guys are both really busy with work these days. Sometime within the next month or so would be fine. 
I may try to call you a bit later, but either way let me know. 
Amazing how strong our human instincts are. I felt the need to reach out to her boss the very day she resumes the affair. Unfortunately I didn’t blow Gary out of the water on day 1, all this could have been avoided. I was trying to be a good person by not taking revenge on him.
From: Her Boss 
Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2013 10:12 AM
To: Me
Subject: Re: WS
A couple days won't be a problem - I will look at calendar later today in the office and see if there are any dates through July that look better then others 

My reply: Thanks, sounds great. Enjoy the conference! (supposedly at a conference with her boss)
RS
6/10 – Dell golf outing 
Hi WS…You are the best thing that has ever happened to me and I am so sorry I have not treated you how you deserve to be treated, loved and respected. Please be patient with me while I work on fixing me and I guarantee it will lead to far better and happier us. Let’s be the people we both want to be for each other and our kids.
I have so much love for you…RS.
PS – I really want to plan a golf getaway for just us…it will be July before we know it!
From: Her 
Sent: Monday, June 10, 2013 10:34 AM
To: Me
Subject: Re: morning baby
Hi RS- Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner, I had a presentation that I needed to get out before I leave. I really do understand that this is so hard for you and i am so sorry. It is terribly hard for me too. I just want us both to be happy. Wish there was a fast forward button but unfortunately it is going to take time to get through this. 
I wish you were golfing today too.....I would have a lot more fun with you.
Talk to you soon.
Love WS
On Mon, Jun 10, 2013 at 9:17 AM, RS > wrote:
Hi Hon.
I just want to say I hope you have a really great day at golfin today. I am so jealous and wish I were playing too but it looks like you will get lucky with weather today. If you need to stay later, just let me know and it will not be a problem. I also wanted to say sorry for the tone of our conversation last night. I was feeling down I guess. I want us to be close again and I know that will take time. I love you and I will continue to show you that I love you and that you are the most important person in my life. I want to reconnect with you so badly and be that person you need and want to be with. I think we had a very nice weekend together and I look forward to many many more to come.
Have a great day!
6/15 – Haircut and highlights for WS
6/17 - Invitation: CIO Forum Dinner @ Mon Jun 17, 2013 6pm – 9pm (WS likely with Gary based on her actions)
6/28 – Brother-in-law Birthday Party (big blowup) (WS likely with Gary earlier in the week based on her actions)
6/30-7/1 WS’s mom in town (WS likely with Gary based on her actions)
7/3 – Fireworks display with friends and family (another blowup) 
7/12 – Her and Kids Dentist Appt. (WS likely with Gary based on her actions)
07/12/13 09:56 AM TOLL ($0.95) ISTHA Plz 73-Army Trail Rd-Ln 53 73 
07/12/13 03:16 PM TOLL ($0.75) ISTHA Plz 52-Meyers Rd-Ln 55 52 

7/14 – My sister’s house for birthday party
7/16 – WS supposed to go to Dallas for the day
07/16/13 06:03 AM TOLL ($0.75) ISTHA Plz 32-Ohare East-Ln 03 32 
07/16/13 08:13 PM TOLL ($0.75) ISTHA Plz 33-Irving Park Rd-Ln 55 33 

7/17 – WS with Gary all day Westin.
7/18 – WS with Gary all day Westin.
07/17/13 08:12 AM TOLL ($0.75) ISTHA Plz 51-York Rd-Ln 71 51 
07/17/13 10:02 AM TOLL ($0.55) ISTHA Plz 56-Highland Ave.-Ln 02 56 
07/17/13 07:03 PM TOLL ($0.75) ISTHA Plz 52-Meyers Rd-Ln 53 52 
07/18/13 07:42 AM TOLL ($0.75) ISTHA Plz 51-York Rd-Ln 55 51 
07/18/13 09:16 AM TOLL ($0.55) ISTHA Plz 56-Highland Ave.-Ln 03 56 
07/18/13 04:04 PM TOLL ($0.55) ISTHA Plz 56-Highland Ave.-Ln 02 56 
07/18/13 06:16 PM TOLL ($0.75) ISTHA Plz 52-Meyers Rd-Ln 55 52 

7/19 – Pearl Jam concert. I had planned this month before I had any idea she was having an affair. Her favorite band. She’s tired and intoxicated. Disinterested. Like she doesn’t care to be there. Huge blow up. I tell her I want a divorce and she can f*ck whomever she wants to. Both intoxicated. I leave her there. She gets a ride home from her brother. Next morning she beats me up again. She tells me she’s not ready to ask me to move out but that my behavior is driving her away from me. Pretty ballsy. She’s having the affair but not ready to ask me to move out. 
WS was with Gary all day and the day prior. My reaction was purely based on instincts and a direct response to her interactions with me that night and leading up to that night
7/22 -7/26 RS in San Diego. I take the opportunity to write her a 10 page hand written letter apologizing for various things I have done to hurt her over the years. Poured my heart out. Read it to her that night I got home. We both cried.
WS likely with Gary based on her actions and listening to his playlist. I was able to look at her ipod and determine songs last played. Many of the songs he had made for her were played At minimum they had lunch together.
07/24/13 08:12 AM TOLL ($0.75) ISTHA Plz 51-York Rd-Ln 53 51 
07/24/13 12:32 PM TOLL ($0.30) ISTHA Plz 58-Winfield Rd.-Ln 08 58 
07/24/13 12:37 PM TOLL ($0.55) ISTHA Plz 59-Farnsworth Rd.-Ln 05 59 
07/24/13 01:41 PM TOLL ($0.55) ISTHA Plz 59-Farnsworth Rd.-Ln 07 59 
07/24/13 01:46 PM TOLL ($0.30) ISTHA Plz 58-Winfield Rd.-Ln 06 58 
07/24/13 05:40 PM TOLL ($0.75) ISTHA Plz 52-Meyers Rd-Ln 55 52 
07/25/13 07:45 AM TOLL ($0.75) ISTHA Plz 51-York Rd-Ln 55 51 
07/25/13 12:10 PM TOLL ($0.30) ISTHA Plz 57-Naperville Rd.-Ln 04 57 
07/25/13 12:16 PM TOLL ($0.55) ISTHA Plz 59-Farnsworth Rd.-Ln 01 59 
07/25/13 12:47 PM TOLL ($0.55) ISTHA Plz 59-Farnsworth Rd.-Ln 07 59 
07/25/13 05:27 PM TOLL ($0.75) ISTHA Plz 52-Meyers Rd-Ln 55 52 
07/25/13 07:27 PM TOLL ($0.80) ISTHA Plz 30-Balmoral Road-Ln 53 30 
07/25/13 09:31 PM TOLL ($0.75) ISTHA Plz 33-Irving Park Rd-Ln 52 33 

8/2 – Lollapalooza (WS likely with Gary based on her actions)
08/07/13 08:16 AM TOLL ($0.75) ISTHA Plz 51-York Rd-Ln 55 51 
08/07/13 05:12 PM TOLL ($0.75) ISTHA Plz 52-Meyers Rd-Ln 54 52 
08/07/13 05:30 PM TOLL ($0.75) ISTHA Plz 55-Midwest Rd.-Ln 02 55 

8/9 – Neighborhood Deck crawl (WS definitely with Gary that morning )
She actually admitted to this being the last time they were together. I don’t know whether that is true or not. I tend to not believe it but no other proof. But this was one of a few details volunteered that I did not know about.
08/09/13 09:00 AM TOLL ($0.75) ISTHA Plz 51-York Rd-Ln 53 51 
08/09/13 10:45 AM TOLL ($0.75) ISTHA Plz 52-Meyers Rd-Ln 53 52 

8/13 – Haircut
08/13/13 08:03 AM TOLL ($0.75) ISTHA Plz 51-York Rd-Ln 55 51 
08/13/13 11:52 AM TOLL ($0.75) ISTHA Plz 52-Meyers Rd-Ln 53 52 
08/13/13 01:01 PM TOLL ($0.55) ISTHA Plz 56-Highland Ave.-Ln 02 56 
08/13/13 05:19 PM TOLL ($0.75) ISTHA Plz 52-Meyers Rd-Ln 55 52 

8/17 - Good friend’s 50th party
I felt like WS was actually happy to be there with me. Kissed me and hugged me. It was a fun night with all our friends. 
8/21 - Not sure where she was on 8/21. Work meeting or other?
08/21/13 08:05 AM TOLL ($0.75) ISTHA Plz 51-York Rd-Ln 55 51 
08/21/13 05:59 PM TOLL ($0.95) ISTHA Plz 73-Army Trail Rd-Ln 63 73 

8/24 – Event for daughter’s school. Teamed up with neighbors for scavenger hunt. (WS likely with Gary recently based on her actions and demeanor)
08/27/13 11:47 AM TOLL ($0.55) ISTHA Plz 59-Farnsworth Rd.-Ln 07 59 
08/27/13 11:53 AM TOLL ($0.30) ISTHA Plz 58-Winfield Rd.-Ln 06 58 
08/27/13 05:44 PM TOLL ($0.75) ISTHA Plz 52-Meyers Rd-Ln 54 52 
08/28/13 08:02 AM TOLL ($0.75) ISTHA Plz 51-York Rd-Ln 72 51 
08/28/13 08:09 AM TOLL ($0.75) ISTHA Plz 53-Spring Rd.-Ln 01 53 
08/28/13 06:12 PM TOLL ($0.75) ISTHA Plz 52-Meyers Rd-Ln 55 52 

8/27 – My email to WS
I realize that I am getting discouraged at times during this process because progress with us may not be as quick as I’d like it to be. I also at the same time realize it will take time to fully rebuild and repair and I understand and accept that although it is hard. At the end of the day, I am thankful we still have the opportunity to work on fixing our issues and are both committed to reconciling or at least trying as hard as we can. We deserve to do that much for each other and for our kids. I can’t control the outcome of where we may end up so I am going to TRY to focus on what I can control which is what I do and say, which will ultimately affect our relationship – hopefully in a positive way. I say try because I am not perfect and still very emotional and hurt at times as you are I’m sure. I think I mentioned being a person of integrity early on in this process and I have been inconsistent with that. Saying one thing one day and another thing another day or saying one thing and doing another. I know I can improve on that once I learn how to control my emotions and not just react to my feelings as I have done in the past time and time again. I know you are scared and I am scared too. I think we are both afraid of getting hurt again and so maybe we are both reluctant to go “all in” with each other. Or we start to and then pull back for one reason or another. I hope over time we both feel safer with each other and trust that neither of us would hurt one another as we have in the past. We have both learned from this and grown from this. I only hope and pray we grow together and not apart with that knowledge. I know what an amazing person you are and I know what an amazing couple we can be and believe we once were. We just need to continue on this path no matter how hard it is and give it time. I will try to remember that because it’s not a normal thing to do. When you are hurting, or in pain, or sad, or angry, or depressed, etc. it’s only natural to want to get out of the situation and run from it or do anything to alleviate the bad thoughts and feelings. But I know in my mind that is a short term fix that will not result in my long term happiness. My happiness lies with you and I being able to fight through this together and coming through on the other side. It means so much to me now when we are together and treating each other well and loving each other and cuddling close. That is what I am fighting for. Anyhow, I think if I focus on these things they will help me be more consistent and have a halo effect on us. I just thought I would share these thought with you because I jotted them down at work. I love you WS.
1.	Be a great husband to my wife.
2.	Be a great father to my kids.
3.	Become a better person, closer to God and more like Jesus. 
4.	Help to repair the hurt and pain I have caused to others.
5.	Forgive those that have hurt me or may continue to without judgment.
6.	Be a good role model for others to aspire to in all aspects of my life.
7.	Be a better friend, brother, son.
8.	Drink less, exercise more.
9.	Be kind to myself and to others.
10.	Enjoy life and be happy.

8/29-9/2 – With the family over Labor Day weekend
WS’s quotes to me “I just don’t want to be with you anymore….” “Hawaii (10 year anniversary trip) was nothing special…” 
9/13 – BMW Championship with work friend 
9/14 – Block Party (WS likely with Gary recently based on her actions and demeanor)
9/16-9/18 - Gary in Chicago (WS likely with Gary recently based on her actions and demeanor)
She said that she saw him this week but in what context? No toll records to indicate hook up but it would be highly unusual if they didn’t especially in light of the text. Other hotels must have come into play that I am not aware of - she has denied this.
9/18 - DDay #2 - “Grey Goose and soda alone at the bar. Wish you were here.”
9/19 - The Fog seems to have lifted after having made a very real statement that I was filing for divorce. I felt relieved the next morning after staying up talking. Like a weight had been lifted. Finally, a clear decision that I knew was the right one based on all of the above. Saddened about pending divorce but relieved.
My text to WS – For the last 5 months of my life I have done nothing but show you that I truly love you and wanted more than anything to work this out and build a relationship we both talked about. Letters nonstop, emailing pouring out my soul to you, actions, gifts, attempts to go out have fun, bond move on, move forward. Your actions have shown the opposite, talking about all the bad stuff and most important still carrying on a relationship with your affair partner. You haven’t been honest with me or yourself and the counseling has been a waste of our time and money and more lies to keep up appearances. If you want to save this marriage, the ball is in your court but I plan to file for Divorce.
Her Texts – Can you talk. I understand. What can I do at this point? Would u give me another chance? I don’t want to lose you or our family. You’re a wonderful, kind, caring, compassionate, man that I have taken for granted. Why are you not responding?
My reply – If you want to reconcile after all your friends and family know then we can talk. Quit your job today if you are serious about it.
Her reply- I will look for a new job immediately. Why would you try to hurt me and tell everyone if we were going to reconcile? I can’t just quit. We would lose our house. I will start my search immediately. RS please give me a chance. Or if you are done please don’t try to ruin my life. That is not who you are.
My reply – You had 5 months. What have you shown me?
Her R - Not enough. I was scared. I am now scared to death of losing you and breaking up our family. I don’t know why it took me this long to realize it. Thank you for talking to me. Can I call you when my team meeting is over.
My R – Bcuz you love him not me and you are just sorry you got caught again and afraid of the light being shined on who you have become.
Her R – No I don’t RS. I love our family and it ended in May.
My R – Good one. Just like you haven’t had any contact with him, as I was reading your text to him. “wish you were here….” Just couldn’t bring yourself to cheat on him with me. By sleeping with me it would be cheating on him.
Her R – No, it was over.
My R – Maybe for him it was but I doubt that highly. He was done and got what he wanted from you. He had too much to lose. You had everything to gain….true love and finally happiness. And you are still protecting him.
Her R – No I’m not. On the way to work it all hit me RS. Is it too late? Can we go this weekend and lock ourselves in until we figure it out. Do you hate me already? I know you don’t care right now but I am very upset and would like to talk to you. I am sorry I upset you when we talked. When are you coming home?
9/21-9/22 – 14 Year Anniversary weekend that I spent weeks trying to plan and make special. Two days prior to leaving. She is texting him from the bar, “Grey Goose and soda. Alone at the bar. Wish you were here.”


----------



## Road Scholar

NoChoice said:


> Self preservation. She has made some very poor decisions and may be gunshy as to how much the full truth could blow up what's left of her life. The truth is always best but may not always be received as offered. Someone quoted the line from Tom Cruise "I want the truth" but maybe of more pertinence to this thread is Nicholson's reply....
> 
> It's sad that all situations are not easy and straightforward and simple but they are not. They are not even static but dynamic and in a constant state of flux. A complex interwoven maze of action and reaction, cause and effect, understanding and misunderstanding.
> 
> RS, I admire you for what you are doing for your family. Some have called you weak but I believe that standing in the wake of your wife's devastation as a shield for your children shows more internal fortitude than most of us will ever have. I find your character to be of a depth rarely seen anymore, it is commendable. I believe that no one will appreciate that more than your kids as they mature and become aware of what happened and what Dad did for us, an invaluable lesson for them. I've heard doormat used in reference to your approach but I see a door. A triple hinged, steel encased, deadbolted barrier with your kids on the inside safe and shielded.
> 
> Your wife also seems to be truly, deeply remorseful and willing to do some heavy lifting to save her marriage. Her trickle truthing may be, as stated above, out of sheer terror over losing what she has left. Most people are not fortunate enough to have a WS that REALLY wants to save their marriage and is willing to work to do it. One who can finally appreciate the value of what they have. You seem to.
> 
> No one can explain exactly how and why this happens but I have posited several posts in an attempt to shed some light on it. You can check some of them if you are so inclined and feel it may help you to understand. It has to do with the speed and accuracy with which information is processed by each individual and the resulting outcome or "choice" is based on that processing ability.
> 
> I believe that we really do not have a "choice" per say in what we do but are rather relegated to act based on our individual ability to process, compile and extrapolate information in any given situation coupled with our perception of honor, dedication, understanding and commitment. As an example, I believe that you had no choice but to stay and try to make your family work. Your honor, dedication and sticktoitiveness demanded it. That's why your "deal breaker" line moved multiple times.
> 
> I also firmly believe that no one really knows what they will do in any given situation until they stand there facing the raw force of it. I believe you reacted with honor, integrity and purpose caring less about yourself than your kids and even your wife.
> 
> If she is capable, your wife could learn an invaluable lesson from you as well. She cast aside her honor, integrity and virtue while you embraced yours even in the face of her betrayal.
> 
> I know your are a religious man from your posts and I am sure your beliefs helped you navigate these rough waters. I would like to quote a verse which I am sure you are aware of that exemplifies how little understanding most people have. While hanging on a cross, beaten and bloodied, ridiculed and scorned, hated and rejected, humiliated and shamed, Christ made a statement showing the depth of his character. He said "forgive them father for *they know not what they do*". He realized the limited intellectual ability of those involved and though he could have cut and run, he stayed and asked for their forgiveness. Did all who were involved see that, no. Did some, yes. I can only hope that your wife is among the few who can see and understand your sacrifice. I know your kids will, in time.
> 
> Your struggle will continue as you endeavor to fight the mental fallout from this but allow me to point out that this A has cost the Scholar family dearly. It has taken on a life of its own and has now become a beast that must be fed by emotional energy. It only takes and never gives, sapping some of the life from the marriage each day. The more you feed it the stronger it grows. At some point I think it would be healthy to say enough, we will feed this beast no longer and then set about starving it to death. Deprive it of its energy and the beast will die. The negative thoughts, the mind movies and the "reliving" of it feeds this beast.
> 
> You must force it from your mind. Like a soldier must somehow force out the thoughts of taking another life and watching comrades die so also must you forget the death of your first marriage and concentrate on the new life ahead. It will never be as it was and that is a good thing. Now it can be richer, and more robust with the lessons learned and the battles won. Look what your marriage has survived and now you are armed with more knowledge than you had before. You may even be able to help others facing what you have successfully conquered. I wish you all the best.


Thank you so much for this post. I really means alot to me especially given where I have been the last few days. I appreciate the kind words and the insight. I find myself trying to do the right thing but constantly faultering. I need to be more disciplined to achieve the outcome I want. I have thought of the your relicgious reference often and while I am nowhere near Jesus in character or morals, I believe it is a worthy goal for each of us to aspire to.

There are some really smart people on TAM. Long Walk has helped me tremendously also. Your insight into my incoherent ramblings is amazing. Thank you for support and wisdom.

RS


----------



## harrybrown

You have worked hard on your marriage.

She has not. You came up with this timeline. She should still give you a timeline so that you know what you are forgiving.

You are a better man than I am. I would be gone by this point.

Would she forgive you if you had an affair like this and a repeat affair?

If she was really trying to save your marriage, and stop protecting the OM, she would give you the complete timeline, she would tell everyone what she did and get tested for stds.


----------



## manfromlamancha

Reading that timeline was sickening to say the least. INMHO there is no way on God's earth that this "marriage" or "relationship" or whatever you call it should continue!!!

Really do not understand those that are backslapping or high-fiving RS! He has handled this abominably.

The monster he calls a wife should have been kicked out a long time ago!


----------



## Road Scholar

manfromlamancha said:


> Reading that timeline was sickening to say the least. INMHO there is no way on God's earth that this "marriage" or "relationship" or whatever you call it should continue!!!
> 
> Really do not understand those that are backslapping or high-fiving RS! He has handled this abominably.
> 
> The monster he calls a wife should have been kicked out a long time ago!


No doubt that I made mistakes. Buy she is trying to save the marriage now with every ounce of her being. She became a monster during that time. I don't feel like she is one now. It scares me that she was capable of such deception, but I chalk it up to affair fog. Still it was her decision and she made it repeatedly. Im choosing to give it another shot for my kids happiness and a short at ours if I can manage to forgive this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## warlock07

I just skimmed through a little..This is not my post. I don't know RS in real life. But I had to stop reading it a couple of mins in. Can only imagine the pain RS is going through everyday. 



> Buy she is trying to save the marriage now with every ounce of her being.


My heart just breaks for you. 

I hope it works out for you. But don't kill yourself one day at a 
time.



> but I chalk it up to affair fog.


What do you call an affair fog ?


----------



## warlock07

Why can't she give you the time line ? is this every ounce of her being ? She won't come clean to the family. She won't give you the timeline. She accused you of emotional abuse. The OM is no longer an option. Now she wants every to make it work with every ounce!!

The same theme is repeating again. You creating timeline is similar to the letters you were writing back then.


----------



## bfree

Road Scholar said:


> No doubt that I made mistakes. Buy she is trying to save the marriage now with every ounce of her being. She became a monster during that time. I don't feel like she is one now. It scares me that she was capable of such deception, but I chalk it up to affair fog. Still it was her decision and she made it repeatedly. Im choosing to give it another shot for my kids happiness and a short at ours if I can manage to forgive this.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


RS, I fully believe in affair fog. I have argued with many here on TAM that it does exist. However, it DOES NOT EXCUSE a WS of this type of behavior. She knew exactly what she was doing every step of the way. Fog may explain why she kept going back to him. It does NOT explain everything else.

That said, your timeline has too many holes in it. Why won't she help fill them in for you? If she is working hard to save the marriage shouldn't this at least be part of it? You are a Christian right RS? What does the Bible say about atonement? Can atonement occur alongside deception? In fact, I'm less concerned with her filling in the pieces for your benefit. I'm concerned that she will never reach a point of atonement without acknowledging these thing to and for herself. If she is resisting baring her soul can she ever truly make it right with God? I respect you working hard to save your marriage and I am incredibly impressed with your strength and resolve. But I fear that your zeal to put this past you is going to eventually cover up her sin and allow the poison to eat away at her soul. Atonement is not easy but without it we are damned.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.


----------



## murphy5

bfree said:


> If she is resisting baring her soul can she ever truly make it right with God?


maybe she made a pact with a different force?


----------



## ThePheonix

Road Scholar said:


> It scares me that she was capable of such deception, but I chalk it up to affair fog.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Road my man, you may need to take a personal inventory and see if you're in an "affair fog". It appears in a lot of your debriefing to TAM, you're the one coming to the table with his hat in his hand.


----------



## warlock07

RS, did you read some posts by FWW here on TAM

Mrs.Mathias, EI, ChangedMe, Tears

Please go though their posts if you have the time


----------



## LongWalk

RS,

JustGrinding did a lot of affair forensic investigation that levelled the foundation of his WW's stonewalling and gas lighting. Now it is he who declines to have sex with her. She once said that he now gave the family dog more affection than her. He has chosen not to divorce her. Why go on with a cheater who is busted if neither spouse is willing to take risk, which is what reconciliation entails. Why should a cheater stay if forgiveness will never be given?

Many admire JustGrinding's intellect. He truly indicts the cheaters, laying out the destructive hypocrisy under the coldest bright light.

His wife wants to reconcile. She is remorsefully but unable to articulate it to herself and formulate what needs to be said and done. JustGrinding is a very sharp guy. He could lead her to see how important remorse is.

I think if you read his thread, you might feel that you don't want to go on his path.

Tears' thread is very moving. Mrs Mathias has not really succeeded in her R. Regret, another exWW, is very articulate. It might help to read her posts. Her husband also used to post on TAM but he is content with their R.



> 9/18 - DDay #2 - “Grey Goose and soda alone at the bar. Wish you were here.”
> 9/19 - The Fog seems to have lifted after having made a very real statement that I was filing for divorce. I felt relieved the next morning after staying up talking. Like a weight had been lifted. Finally, a clear decision that I knew was the right one based on all of the above. Saddened about pending divorce but relieved.
> My text to WS – For the last 5 months of my life I have done nothing but show you that I truly love you and wanted more than anything to work this out and build a relationship we both talked about. Letters nonstop, emailing pouring out my soul to you, actions, gifts, attempts to go out have fun, bond move on, move forward. Your actions have shown the opposite, talking about all the bad stuff and most important still carrying on a relationship with your affair partner. You haven’t been honest with me or yourself and the counseling has been a waste of our time and money and more lies to keep up appearances. If you want to save this marriage, the ball is in your court but I plan to file for Divorce.
> 
> *This text was so much stronger than all the stuff you wrote before in which you lambasted yourself for contributing so much to her decision to have an affair.
> 
> Now even she admits that the affair was her fault.*
> 
> Her Texts – Can you talk. I understand. What can I do at this point? Would u give me another chance? I don’t want to lose you or our family. You’re a wonderful, kind, caring, compassionate, man that I have taken for granted. Why are you not responding?
> 
> *She did not know that you had fresh hard evidence. Has she admitted that the thought that you had discovered some evidence went through her mind or does she maintain that it was your tone that changed her attitude?
> 
> All the words of praise say nothing about her attraction to you as a man.*
> 
> My reply – If you want to reconcile after all your friends and family know then we can talk. Quit your job today if you are serious about it.
> 
> *Perhaps you later and even now wished that you had been tougher and let her come up with the need to quit the job and expose to family.*
> 
> Her reply- I will look for a new job immediately. Why would you try to hurt me and tell everyone if we were going to reconcile? I can’t just quit. We would lose our house. I will start my search immediately. RS please give me a chance. Or if you are done please don’t try to ruin my life. That is not who you are.
> 
> *The duality of this is unpleasant. Save what could be saved. No talk about what you might need.*
> 
> My reply – You had 5 months. What have you shown me?
> 
> Her R - Not enough. I was scared. I am now scared to death of losing you and breaking up our family. I don’t know why it took me this long to realize it. Thank you for talking to me. Can I call you when my team meeting is over.
> 
> *Her team meeting. Something unimportant in the context of the unfolding personal disaster. If your wife still has this communication style, you should wean her of it.*
> 
> My R – Bcuz you love him not me and you are just sorry you got caught again and afraid of the light being shined on who you have become.
> 
> *This was the truth. Interesting how much shorter all the sentences than when you were in apology mode.*
> 
> Her R – No I don’t RS. I love our family and it ended in May.
> 
> *Again, she is not talking about loving you but the family. Hardly an expression of passion towards you.*
> 
> My R – Good one. Just like you haven’t had any contact with him, as I was reading your text to him. “wish you were here….” Just couldn’t bring yourself to cheat on him with me. By sleeping with me it would be cheating on him.
> 
> 
> Her R – No, it was over.
> 
> *You must have been both irrate and happy to read this. Suddenly you had the dope on her.*
> 
> My R – Maybe for him it was but I doubt that highly. He was done and got what he wanted from you. He had too much to lose. You had everything to gain….true love and finally happiness. And you are still protecting him.
> 
> *This was an upleasant truth for both of you. The notion that he was done with her because he had enjoyed the passion she had put into the affair. As you noted, he liked having her driving to meet him. One quesion might bother you a lot. Who paid for these hotel rooms? It may sound crazy, but I think most men would be extra humiliated and angry that their WW voluntarily paid the bills so they could get another dose of OM.
> 
> So this is something that she does not want checked in a timeline. Did she take out cash to spend on the affair?*
> 
> Her R – No I’m not. On the way to work it all hit me RS. Is it too late? Can we go this weekend and lock ourselves in until we figure it out. Do you hate me already? I know you don’t care right now but I am very upset and would like to talk to you. I am sorry I upset you when we talked. When are you coming home?
> 
> *On the way to work is that before or after the divorce message? Lock ourselves in = sex can solve this.
> 
> She deserved to be hated at this point. Upset is a very mild word. Her upset or yours, which was worse?
> 
> "When are you coming home?" This is the same communication style as "when team meeting is over". She has a need to control.*
> 
> 9/21-9/22 – 14 Year Anniversary weekend that I spent weeks trying to plan and make special. Two days prior to leaving. She is texting him from the bar, “Grey Goose and soda. Alone at the bar. Wish you were here.”


Everyone following your thread can see why you wanted a timeline. I still don't think you need to press her for details. However, I think you might request a final confession. For your R to be healthier, she ought to come clean an say that she understated the extent of affair. She sought to minimize what came to light after Dday2.

At this point you don't need the details about all of their meetings, but she should certainly be honest and say that she did lie and tickle truth for fear of the consequences.

Her last wistful missive to OM, which she tapped into her phone after the vodka in her belly had warmed the organ of nostalgia, was a very straightfoward text.

When your wife is lying or being less than forthright, her words reflect it. If she is writes and speaks to you simply and directly in heartfelt language that will do a lot for your R.

You earlier wrote that she was now less selfish that she was prior to the affair. That is really significant. If she feels that making it up to you gives her pleasure, then that is a sign that your R is good.

Your wife seems to have realized that she was not coming out of the affair into a good place. It was self preservation that motivated her to finally commit to your marriage. Your periodic skepticism is a test that she has to keep passing from time to time.

By mutual consent you have used sex to heal your relationship. Why not keep it up?

If OM has 300,000 hits on Cheaterville, it must have gotten back to work.

You should go to MC and discuss how the time line issue has affect your R.

I have cousin who lives Lisle. Chicago and its suburbs are huge.


----------



## tom67

RS I'm about 20 minutes from you...
Small world.


----------



## warlock07

> 8/9 – Neighborhood Deck crawl (WS definitely with Gary that morning )
> She actually admitted to this being the last time they were together. I don’t know whether that is true or not. I tend to not believe it but no other proof. But this was one of a few details volunteered that I did not know about.


LW, what do you think about this ?

I'm a masochist and read a bit more



> My text to WS – For the last 5 months of my life I have done nothing but show you that I truly love you and wanted more than anything to work this out and build a relationship we both talked about. Letters nonstop, emailing pouring out my soul to you, actions, gifts, attempts to go out have fun, bond move on, move forward. Your actions have shown the opposite, talking about all the bad stuff and most important still carrying on a relationship with your affair partner. You haven’t been honest with me or yourself and the counseling has been a waste of our time and money and more lies to keep up appearances. If you want to save this marriage, the ball is in your court but I plan to file for Divorce.
> Her Texts – Can you talk. I understand. What can I do at this point? Would u give me another chance? I don’t want to lose you or our family. You’re a wonderful, kind, caring, compassionate, man that I have taken for granted. Why are you not responding?
> My reply – If you want to reconcile *after all your friends and family know then we can talk*. Quit your job today if you are serious about it.
> Her reply- I will look for a new job immediately. *Why would you try to hurt me and tell everyone if we were going to reconcile? *I can’t just quit. We would lose our house. I will start my search immediately. RS please give me a chance. *Or if you are done please don’t try to ruin my life. That is not who you are.*
> My reply – You had 5 months. What have you shown me?
> Her R - Not enough. I was scared. I am now scared to death of losing you and breaking up our family. I don’t know why it took me this long to realize it. Thank you for talking to me. Can I call you when my team meeting is over.
> My R – Bcuz you love him not me and you are just sorry you got caught again and afraid of the light being shined on who you have become.
> Her R – No I don’t RS. *I love our family and it ended in May.*
> My R – Good one. Just like you haven’t had any contact with him, as I was reading your text to him. “wish you were here….” Just couldn’t bring yourself to cheat on him with me. By sleeping with me it would be cheating on him.
> Her R –* No, it was over.*
> My R – Maybe for him it was but I doubt that highly. He was done and got what he wanted from you. He had too much to lose. You had everything to gain….true love and finally happiness. *And you are still protecting him.*
> Her R – *No I’m not. On the way to work it all hit me RS. Is it too late? Can we go this weekend and lock ourselves in until we figure it out. Do you hate me already? I know you don’t care right now but I am very upset and would like to talk to you. I am sorry I upset you when we talked. When are you coming home?*
> 9/21-9/22 – 14 Year Anniversary weekend that I spent weeks trying to plan and make special. Two days prior to leaving. She is texting him from the bar, “Grey Goose and soda. Alone at the bar. Wish you were here.”



This is everything people were warning you about(Atleast I was). This was what I was worried that your R is about. 

Manipulation and managing you. You were so happy that she would even beg you to re-consider/

I am not even sure if she won't do it again in a year or two down the line. I don't see any redeeming features here from your wife here. Maybe you cannot post everything she does daily since she committed to R. But the core seems rotten. 

Do you know if the OM is reconciling with his wife ? 

Do you know if the OM dumped her before Dday 2 ?

See, it could be the reason she wanted to R was because OM went back to his wife while she seemed to have lost her husband and family while still pining for him. She did not want to be point of ridicule. The woman who lost her husband, family and got dumped by her lover. Her motivation for R seem to be panic, fear rather than love and respect for you. You were just there as her husband. It could have been anybody. She just had to sex you up for a few days. This is also the real reason she never gave you the complete timeline or the details of her affair(I don't mean the sex details either).

Does her motivation matter to you ? Does it matter that it is shame for herself rather than love for you that motivated her to R. Is it good enough ?


----------



## LongWalk

warlock07 said:


> LW, what do you think about this ?
> 
> I'm a masochist and read a bit more
> 
> *I agree that even in the beginning stages of R, her response was not 100 percent on board the SS Remorse.*
> 
> This is everything people were warning you about(Atleast I was). This was what I was worried that your R is about.
> 
> Manipulation and managing you. You were so happy that she would even beg you to re-consider/
> 
> *Manipulation is evident. However, there was a lot less after Dday2.*
> 
> I am not even sure if she won't do it again in a year or two down the line. I don't see any redeeming features here from your wife here. Maybe you cannot post everything she does daily since she committed to R. But the core seems rotten.
> 
> *RS has said that she has changed fundamentally. The selfish side of her has gone. I believe he is recording a real change. RS has changed, too. He is not accepting the disrespect. His wife appreciates his character now.
> 
> RS ought to measure her in all of her relations. Is she being good to her own parents? Is she in general being less of a b!tch, more compassionate and empathetic? Is she a more sincere person?
> 
> Racer's WW is not really a better person. She may never cheat on him again but she doesn't meet his needs. RS's wife is now affectionate.*
> 
> Do you know if the OM is reconciling with his wife ?
> 
> *I think they did.*
> 
> Do you know if the OM dumped her before Dday 2 ?
> 
> *RS and OM probably talked about breaking it off or seeking divorce. They may have talked about marrying. Neither RS's wife or OM were up to divorce. Who was less up to it? Probably OM. But neither of them had the choice of considering divorce by hoodwinking their spouse because Dday1 took that choice away from them. Remember neither cheater had to dig into their pocket for the retainer for a lawyer.*
> 
> See, it could be the reason she wanted to R was because OM went back to his wife while she seemed to have lost her husband and family while still pining for him. She did not want to be point of ridicule. The woman who lost her husband, family and got dumped by her lover. Her motivation for R seem to be panic, fear rather than love and respect for you. You were just there as her husband. It could have been anybody. She just had to sex you up for a few days. This is also the real reason she never gave you the complete timeline or the details of her affair(I don't mean the sex details either).
> 
> *This negative interpretation is to some degree supported by her own communications to RS. "Scared to death", that is such cliche. "Upset" what false understatment – language is so inadequate at times. The Brits have an expression, "gutted", but it is very working class and lacks power.
> 
> Again when RS's wife speaks in cliche she seems phony. How does she communicate today? *
> 
> Does her motivation matter to you ? Does it matter that it is shame for herself rather than love for you that motivated her to R. Is it good enough ?
> 
> *This is a great question. I don't it has to be either or. She may initially have felt everything in selfish terms, i.e., RS was going to wreck her life. She should have been thinking only about RS at that point.
> 
> But it could be that RS's realized that RS is quality guy and she is not his equal. She wants to be with him because he is a good guy and she did take him for granted. That may be driven home more and more by her own musing over the situation.
> 
> Another thread that is comparable: SouthsideIrish. His wife definitely went completely over to the OM (a judge). After he rejected her she eventually came to appreciate her husband. Her former lover became "Voldemort" in her eyes. SouthsideIrish didn't say if he became Harry Potter or Hagrid. *


RS is now in marriage of unequals. His wife is going to have to kiss azz for some years, even decades. She no longer has the right to PMS and say crazy shxt. A single unconsidered statement from her might trigger a decision by RS to divorce. I don't think RS wants this hegemony over their lives, but really he has to continue to true to his gut feeling.

I also agree with him that people aren't perfect. Getting rid of an imperfect cheating spouse makes perfect sense if they are BPD. Those that are unremorseful are dubioius. HappyMan always wants folks to think it over if there are kids.

It must have been very frightening for RS's wife to not feel desire for him. When she threw sex at him it wasn't smooth going at first. She was into OM. How Om did her in bed was a very real pleasure. From RS's description of how they had to undo that over time so that getting laid by RS became emotionally and physiclally rewarding actually took work on their parts. The more they were intimate, the easier it became.

RS is very dispassionate in describing the failures in R. This also means that the positive aspects that he reports are more reliable. So, when he feels that she has turned a new leaf, I believe him.

RS has to go with his gut. If he feels that she is giving it up in bed willingly, that she wants to please him in little ways, that she takes good care of their kids, etc., then his marriage is in a better place than a lot folks.

If he looks at her and feels that she is an unremorseful lying hypocrite who is faking it to avoid disgrace, he should divorce her. However, from what he writes she is actually better than she was. He probably is, too.


----------



## warlock07

> She actually admitted to this being the last time they were together. I don’t know whether that is true or not. I tend to not believe it but no other proof. But this was one of a few details volunteered that I did not know about.



Leave about kissing his azz,she can't even bend a little. look at where RS is.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: No sex after her affair...*



LongWalk said:


> RS is now in marriage of unequals. His wife is going to have to kiss azz for some years, even decades. She no longer has the right to PMS and say crazy shxt. A single unconsidered statement from her might trigger a decision by RS to divorce. I don't think RS wants this hegemony over their lives, but really he has to continue to true to his gut feeling.


LW, I would tend to agree that if RS doesn't need the intimate details then he shouldn't press for them. However, his wife is still denying the length and seriousness of her affair. She claims it ended before it actually did. She doesn't see the depth of the destruction it caused because she's still minimizing aspects of it. She has not laid bare her soul, not to RS and not to God. God knows what she did. But in order to be forgiven for her sin she needs to confess it. She hasn't done that yet, not to God, not to RS, and not to herself. She can never atone for what she's done so long as she is still firmly entrenched in her deception. And that sin will continue to stain her soul until she releases that poison. Confession is not for God's benefit. He knows what we've done. Confession is for our benefit. It's to make us whole again and to purge that evil from our core.


----------



## LongWalk

That is why she needs to admit to being a liar. Clearly it was not over the way she said it was. Perhaps in her own mind she was trying half-heartedly to break it off after Dday one. She was very much in love with OM. Mrs Mathias love both Matt and OM, that was because OM was never in a position to replace Matt, so she wanted the excitment and buzz of a new love at the same time.

RS's wife followed the subliminal pattern: women love the man they are having sex with. Men cheat more for the sex sometimes. OM was cöckblocking RS after Dday One because she was faithful to OM. Theres is no getting round this ugly truth.

Confession is good. For RS's wife the problem may be fear that the new facts are a deal killer. It is entirely possible that OM booked hotels closer to RS's home and she slipped out for quickies during the false R. Those were not covered by the toll receipts, but this sort of scenario has clearly gone through RS's mind.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

The bottom line is that RS's WW will NOT do anything to save this marriage. Since there are a few things that RS has been asking for that his wife is refusing to give him - specifically the timeline and filling in the blanks for him.

The question is whether that is good enough for RS or not. Only RS can answer that. It seems like a number of people want to answer this for him. We all have our own values and thresholds for what we will and will not tolerate. If her other actions are outweighing the withholding of facts from filling in the affair timeline, then RS is happy with that.

Honestly, the only thing I can guess that she is withholding is days where she may have had unprotected sex with Gary and then later in the day had sex with RS. I have no idea if this was already covered in this thread, but it's the only piece of the puzzle that I can think of that is missing - aside from additional meetups.


----------



## LongWalk

She probably had sex on the same day or close it prior to Dday one. After Dday two RS and his WW were in a sexless marriage. So actually, the title of his thread should read, no sex after discovering the affair. While it was going on though, his sex life was not good.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: No sex after her affair...*



LongWalk said:


> That is why she needs to admit to being a liar. Clearly it was not over the way she said it was. Perhaps in her own mind she was trying half-heartedly to break it off after Dday one. She was very much in love with OM. Mrs Mathias love both Matt and OM, that was because OM was never in a position to replace Matt, so she wanted the excitment and buzz of a new love at the same time.
> 
> RS's wife followed the subliminal pattern: women love the man they are having sex with. Men cheat more for the sex sometimes. OM was cöckblocking RS after Dday One because she was faithful to OM. Theres is no getting round this ugly truth.
> 
> Confession is good. For RS's wife the problem may be fear that the new facts are a deal killer. It is entirely possible that OM booked hotels closer to RS's home and she slipped out for quickies during the false R. Those were not covered by the toll receipts, but this sort of scenario has clearly gone through RS's mind.


My question is truly why RS's wife is afraid of confessing. Is it because she's afraid of his reaction or is it that she doesn't want to face the truth for herself. The first reason might cost her the marriage but given how tolerant RS has beeni don't think this is likely. The second reason is worse. Not only will it make it more likely that she will repeat the pattern but the cost could be her very soul. This is why I have repeatedly stated that the entire truth needs to come out. Not so much for his sake but for hers.


----------



## LongWalk

I agree that more confession would be good for her. The problem is that the WW, or husband for that matter, cannot tell all the truth. They can only offer a narrative that is incomplete.

A BW asks her WH if sex with OW was good. What should he say?

"Honey, what can I say, at one point I looked down and saw that her pvssy juice had been beaten into a fine cream. The sight drove me crazy and I pounded her even harder. The sounds she makes are incredible."

That might be true, but saying it means R is not going to happen.

"The sex with her was exciting because it was new, but that feeling wore off and I knew that I missed making love to you because we mean more to each other, and you are hotter than her."

The second statement may also be true, but it doesn't include the word cream or moan. 

The worst thing in RS's false R was his pleading for her love. It didn't work and it was pathetic to both him and her.

RS's wife was proud. Does he find her less so?


----------



## imjustwatching

I cant believe that you are still with this woman really?!
honnestly I don't know if I should respect you or feel sorry for you


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: No sex after her affair...*



LongWalk said:


> I agree that more confession would be good for her. The problem is that the WW, or husband for that matter, cannot tell all the truth. They can only offer a narrative that is incomplete.
> 
> A BW asks her WH if sex with OW was good. What should he say?
> 
> "Honey, what can I say, at one point I looked down and saw that her pvssy juice had been beaten into a fine cream. The sight drove me crazy and I pounded her even harder. The sounds she makes are incredible."
> 
> That might be true, but saying it means R is not going to happen.
> 
> "The sex with her was exciting because it was new, but that feeling wore off and I knew that I missed making love to you because we mean more to each other, and you are hotter than her."
> 
> The second statement may also be true, but it doesn't include the word cream or moan.
> 
> The worst thing in RS's false R was his pleading for her love. It didn't work and it was pathetic to both him and her.
> 
> RS's wife was proud. Does he find her less so?


I understand what you're saying but you can tell the truth without being brutal. I'm not talking about the intimate details. I already said those are probably best left unspoken. I'm talking about the nuts and bolts of her affair. She needs to allow those facts to be purged so that true healing can take place.

You know, God is pretty smart. He already knows everything so why do we need to confess especially since as Christians we believe our sins have already been paid for. If I showed you a x-ray of an individual and asked you to tell me what's wrong with them, unless you're a doctor you probably couldn't. If that individual had the beginnings of cancer and was relying on us as untrained and ignorant people to diagnose and treat them they wouldn't live too long. The point is that unless you know what cancer looks like you cannot see it and take steps to remove it. Unless we know what sin looks like we cannot see it or take steps to remove it. That is why we confess. That is why we atone. And that is why God is the great healer and the best doctor we could ever hope to have. He knows what is needed to heal our souls. I trust Him.


----------



## LongWalk

I am not Christian but I agree that healing requires a leap of faith. RS is Catholic, so whatever course he chooses should jive with the teachings he holds to be true.

One question that RS might ask his wife is whether she fears that she has left something she could or should have done for R undone because of her shame, pride, cowardice. 

Does she worry that RS might now be open to having an affair himself? It would be interesting to hear what she has to say. For if she says, no he is not that kind of immoral person. He may think, well, I didn't think you were either.


----------



## turnera

RS, I don't understand. What has happened since 9/19? She 'gets it'? She doesn't want to lose her family? What else? Did she write him a No Contact letter? Did she go to the lawyer and draw up a postnup? Did she write out your timeline? Did she arrange the MC and IC? Did she go to her family and yours with you and admit to them what she's done to you? Did she drop the friends who enabled this? Did she change work so she never sees him again?

Or did she just say I'm sorry?


----------



## barbados

turnera said:


> RS, I don't understand. What has happened since 9/19? She 'gets it'? She doesn't want to lose her family? What else? Did she write him a No Contact letter? Did she go to the lawyer and draw up a postnup? Did she write out your timeline? Did she arrange the MC and IC? Did she go to her family and yours with you and admit to them what she's done to you? Did she drop the friends who enabled this? Did she change work so she never sees him again?
> 
> Or did she just say I'm sorry?


I'm pretty sure that the answer to most of those questions is no. So its why I will still say the RS is in a false R. It can't be true R id the WS does not capitulate 100 %, and RS's WW is not. So we see RS still emotionally struggling.


----------



## Nucking Futs

turnera said:


> RS, I don't understand. What has happened since 9/19? She 'gets it'? She doesn't want to lose her family? What else? Did she write him a No Contact letter? Did she go to the lawyer and draw up a postnup? Did she write out your timeline? Did she arrange the MC and IC? Did she go to her family and yours with you and admit to them what she's done to you? Did she drop the friends who enabled this? Did she change work so she never sees him again?
> 
> Or did she just say I'm sorry?


She did get a new job but did it on her own time table. I think that's the only action she took, the rest is just talk in service to the false R.

I don't much like to post on this thread any more. RS has been educated on this subject at length and refuses to use the knowledge, preferring to excuse her. At some point it's going to come back and bite him in the butt, but it's his mistake to make.


----------



## LongWalk

She wrote a no contact letter but is was softer than RS would have liked. As RS's wife has been forced to back pedal continuously since R2 has been going, she may wish that she had come to different realizations earlier so that she could have done things differently. But to do what? Mute his disquiet? Feel more remorse and express it better?

Some people are incapable of saying sorry. Neither of my parents say sorry ever. Okay my father and mother might have said to one another a few times during their worst fights, but never in front of my brothers and me. What sort of childhood did RS's wife have?


----------



## Road Scholar

turnera said:


> RS, I don't understand. What has happened since 9/19? She 'gets it'? She doesn't want to lose her family? What else? Did she write him a No Contact letter? Did she go to the lawyer and draw up a postnup? Did she write out your timeline? Did she arrange the MC and IC? Did she go to her family and yours with you and admit to them what she's done to you? Did she drop the friends who enabled this? Did she change work so she never sees him again?
> 
> Or did she just say I'm sorry?


So I think it's fair to remind everyone that I've had this timeline for about a year now. I'm just posting it now after having changed most of the names. There's been a lot of stuff happen in between then and now and I may not be sharing fully or clearly.

She did write a NC letter within a day or two as soon as I asked her to. There was no cell phone contact after that. I wasn't checking her phone at that time so I don't think she was concealing anything. I got her phone records maybe a month or so later. She may have used her work number but I don't think so. I believe she was committed to making a change in herself and to being who she wanted to be and thought she was. I think she has upheld the NC. He violated it the within a week or so and she told me voluntarily. She said he stopped by her office to see how she was. She said she was scared and her first thought was of me. She told me that night. Of course I became enraged. Again this goes back about a year.

She also changed jobs within a few months. That was non-negotiable and while it took longer than I wanted, I was patient and it has been good for her/us financially - not that that matters really.

The other stuff is a NO. I have come very close to telling her father. One night in an argument I called him late at night and she almost told him but didn't and just broke down crying. She couldn't bring herself to do it and neither could I. I know she already feels ashamed. Would this help her or us at this point? 

The MC and IC has been pretty light. I have gone back to this point from time to time when I feel like crap. Reminding her and asking her why she is not seeing anyone. She refocuses me to how she is treating me now that's important and what matters. It is a reminder to me that she is not _*really*_ doing everything she can. Even though part of me questions the effectiveness of IC/MC, it would be a sign that she is working hard on herself for us. Going the extra mile so to speak. But that is part of why I let it go. Regardless, this is part of her personality the arrogance that still bothers me. Like she already knows why all of this happened. She felt like something was missing. We took each other for granted. She felt like a nag always asking me to text and call. Her neediness. It was all her and what she focused on (the negative). Her insecurities. Her selfishness. Her immaturity. What she thought she wanted. These are her words. I told her after 20 years together that yes that became part of the equation unfortunately, but there was also the other part of the equation, the fun times together, the love, the support, our family, our history. Not everything is a bed of roses, sometimes there are thorns. But we failed to communicate with each other effectively in ways that we could understand. I complained about lack of sex - closeness, intimacy. In the end the good, did not outweigh the bad in her mind and she fell in love with someone else and demonized me severely leading up to and during the affair. 

It was hard for her to do that during the 5 month period though, while I was fighting for us and throwing myself on the sword, while doing what she was doing. 

This is what I think she now gets, her hypocrisy, her negativity, her judgmental ways, her selfishness, her neediness, all of it. She is ashamed and I feel she is remorseful and I know she wants to move on from it. I know part of her feels like I am not allowing her to move on and heal. Maybe that should be the least of her concerns as I'm still working on my healing and getting myself unstuck from this mess. 

I've been very cold this past week. It's been a very hard few days actually. I have been contemplating a different life. Contemplating whether I still lover her or how I could still love someone that treated me so poorly for so long. How could I love someone that risked something I held so sacred - our family - time and time again. 

1x a mistake, 2x another mistake for a slow learner. 35-50x (or more) after being given another chance to make it right?? A lot of pain and a lot of damage. So back to my kids and the family and life they believe is wonderful, innocent, happy with a mommy and daddy that love each other - too much in their opinion sometimes, when we're affectionate. It breaks my heart to think about disrupting that now that she is trying and her head it screwed on straight. I wonder if filing would help us in the long run. I wonder if I just keep my focus on the kids if everything else will work itself out over time. I wish someone would tell me what the right decision is. I keep looking for that one piece of evidence that will definitively tell me what to do - like breaking NC or something that will reveal to me her true allegiance.

She asked me last night WWJD? Love, Forgive, Follow Me I said. I think that is the answer even in light of all these bad choices, mistakes, lies, deceit, still mistakes made and imperfect character flaws. I agree there needs to be a leap of faith to heal. That there has to be more that cannot be understood or explained. I have felt truly loved and happy during the past year, but I always seem to gravitate back to that time and get sucked into the darkness and it consumes me as it does now.

I have told her I don't want her to be with me for any other reason than she loves me for who I am. All of it. But hypocritically, I don't know that I am staying just for her. I guess I have stayed in large part because of the kids - and the possibility for happiness down the road with the whole family package. If it were only her and I, I'm pretty sure I would have already filed. I don't know that says if anything other than the wounds are deep and the pain is still there.

Warlock, believe me I do NOT enjoy the drama. I guess I post to help clarify my own thoughts on this and then read the reaction. Maybe I come here to have a pity party for myself and feel sorry for myself rather than be thankful for what I have. I know I don't articulate everything very clearly or communicate as effectively as some here, but your questions are provocative.

I will look into the former WWs posting you and LW have suggested for other insight.


----------



## convert

Road Scholar said:


> So I think it's fair to remind everyone that I've had this timeline for about a year now. I'm just posting it now after having changed most of the names. There's been a lot of stuff happen in between then and now and I may not be sharing fully or clearly.
> 
> She did write a NC letter within a day or two as soon as I asked her to. There was no cell phone contact after that. I wasn't checking her phone at that time so I don't think she was concealing anything. I got her phone records maybe a month or so later. She may have used her work number but I don't think so. I believe she was committed to making a change in herself and to being who she wanted to be and thought she was. I think she has upheld the NC. He violated it the within a week or so and she told me voluntarily. She said he stopped by her office to see how she was. She said she was scared and her first thought was of me. She told me that night. Of course I became enraged. Again this goes back about a year.
> 
> She also changed jobs within a few months. That was non-negotiable and while it took longer than I wanted, I was patient and it has been good for her/us financially - not that that matters really.
> 
> The other stuff is a NO. I have come very close to telling her father. One night in an argument I called him late at night and she almost told him but didn't and just broke down crying. She couldn't bring herself to do it and neither could I. I know she already feels ashamed. Would this help her or us at this point?
> 
> The MC and IC has been pretty light. I have gone back to this point from time to time when I feel like crap. Reminding her and asking her why she is not seeing anyone. She refocuses me to how she is treating me now that's important and what matters. It is a reminder to me that she is not _*really*_ doing everything she can. Even though part of me questions the effectiveness of IC/MC, it would be a sign that she is working hard on herself for us. Going the extra mile so to speak. But that is part of why I let it go. Regardless, this is part of her personality the arrogance that still bothers me. Like she already knows why all of this happened. She felt like something was missing. We took each other for granted. She felt like a nag always asking me to text and call. Her neediness. It was all her and what she focused on (the negative). Her insecurities. Her selfishness. Her immaturity. What she thought she wanted. These are her words. I told her after 20 years together that yes that became part of the equation unfortunately, but there was also the other part of the equation, the fun times together, the love, the support, our family, our history. Not everything is a bed of roses, sometimes there are thorns. But we failed to communicate with each other effectively in ways that we could understand. I complained about lack of sex - closeness, intimacy. In the end the good, did not outweigh the bad in her mind and she fell in love with someone else and demonized me severely leading up to and during the affair.
> 
> It was hard for her to do that during the 5 month period though, while I was fighting for us and throwing myself on the sword, while doing what she was doing.
> 
> This is what I think she now gets, her hypocrisy, her negativity, her judgmental ways, her selfishness, her neediness, all of it. She is ashamed and I feel she is remorseful and I know she wants to move on from it. I know part of her feels like I am not allowing her to move on and heal. Maybe that should be the least of her concerns as I'm still working on my healing and getting myself unstuck from this mess.
> 
> I've been very cold this past week. It's been a very hard few days actually. I have been contemplating a different life. Contemplating whether I still lover her or how I could still love someone that treated me so poorly for so long. How could I love someone that risked something I held so sacred - our family - time and time again.
> 
> 1x a mistake, 2x another mistake for a slow learner. 35-50x (or more) after being given another chance to make it right?? A lot of pain and a lot of damage. So back to my kids and the family and life they believe is wonderful, innocent, happy with a mommy and daddy that love each other - too much in their opinion sometimes, when we're affectionate. It breaks my heart to think about disrupting that now that she is trying and her head it screwed on straight. I wonder if filing would help us in the long run. I wonder if I just keep my focus on the kids if everything else will work itself out over time. I wish someone would tell me what the right decision is. *I keep looking for that one piece of evidence that will definitively tell me what to do - like breaking NC or something that will reveal to me her true allegiance*.
> 
> She asked me last night WWJD? Love, Forgive, Follow Me I said. I think that is the answer even in light of all these bad choices, mistakes, lies, deceit, still mistakes made and imperfect character flaws. I agree there needs to be a leap of faith to heal. That there has to be more that cannot be understood or explained. I have felt truly loved and happy during the past year, but I always seem to gravitate back to that time and get sucked into the darkness and it consumes me as it does now.
> 
> I have told her I don't want her to be with me for any other reason than she loves me for who I am. All of it. But hypocritically, I don't know that I am staying just for her. I guess I have stayed in large part because of the kids - and the possibility for happiness down the road with the whole family package. If it were only her and I, I'm pretty sure I would have already filed. I don't know that says if anything other than the wounds are deep and the pain is still there.
> 
> Warlock, believe me I do NOT enjoy the drama. I guess I post to help clarify my own thoughts on this and then read the reaction. Maybe I come here to have a pity party for myself and feel sorry for myself rather than be thankful for what I have. I know I don't articulate everything very clearly or communicate as effectively as some here, but your questions are provocative.
> 
> I will look into the former WWs posting you and LW have suggested for other insight.


The bolded part above caught my eye. I was wondering the same, it was bugging me so bad, I had to know, so I even did a test (or as some call it a "honey pot").
I wrote a letter as OM asking to meet at a hotel I had it all staked out. I needed to see if she would pass. I didn't want to go through a false R.

She passed the test. She brought the letter to me. (she still does not know it was me that wrote it)

was this right to do? It was deceitful in itself.

A few other things i did was to stash some money away (not in an account) but hidden to where I could get to it and nobody else. changed beneficiaries and other. This again is deceitful but I just want to be able to have some protection if it does not work.

I am not saying to do these things, just "Steel" yourself for a worst case scenario.


WWJD is this "What Would Jehovah Do"??????


----------



## azteca1986

> 2/2 – Her friends from college over for a dinner party at our house. (Affair may have already started based on wife’s behavior. For sure there was an emotional affair, but may already have gotten physical)


So you don't even know when the affair started?

The rest of your timeline and especially some of your comments was painful to read.


----------



## bfree

WWJD? Really RS? Let's ask:

Matthew 5:23-24

23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; 24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

Had she reconciled with the ones that she harmed? Has she atoned with those she wronged. Because in Jesus' own words you cannot make it right with God until you make it right with man.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Road Scholar said:


> So I think it's fair to remind everyone that I've had this timeline for about a year now. I'm just posting it now after having changed most of the names. There's been a lot of stuff happen in between then and now and I may not be sharing fully or clearly.
> 
> She did write a NC letter within a day or two as soon as I asked her to. There was no cell phone contact after that. I wasn't checking her phone at that time so I don't think she was concealing anything. I got her phone records maybe a month or so later. She may have used her work number but I don't think so. I believe she was committed to making a change in herself and to being who she wanted to be and thought she was. I think she has upheld the NC. He violated it the within a week or so and she told me voluntarily. She said he stopped by her office to see how she was. She said she was scared and her first thought was of me. She told me that night. Of course I became enraged. Again this goes back about a year.
> 
> She also changed jobs within a few months. That was non-negotiable and while it took longer than I wanted, I was patient and it has been good for her/us financially - not that that matters really.
> 
> *The other stuff is a NO. I have come very close to telling her father. One night in an argument I called him late at night and she almost told him but didn't and just broke down crying. She couldn't bring herself to do it and neither could I. I know she already feels ashamed. Would this help her or us at this point? *
> 
> The MC and IC has been pretty light. I have gone back to this point from time to time when I feel like crap. Reminding her and asking her why she is not seeing anyone. She refocuses me to how she is treating me now that's important and what matters. *It is a reminder to me that she is not really doing everything she can.* Even though part of me questions the effectiveness of IC/MC, it would be a sign that she is working hard on herself for us. Going the extra mile so to speak. But that is part of why I let it go. Regardless, this is part of her personality the arrogance that still bothers me. Like she already knows why all of this happened. She felt like something was missing. We took each other for granted. She felt like a nag always asking me to text and call. Her neediness. It was all her and what she focused on (the negative). Her insecurities. Her selfishness. Her immaturity. What she thought she wanted. These are her words. I told her after 20 years together that yes that became part of the equation unfortunately, but there was also the other part of the equation, the fun times together, the love, the support, our family, our history. Not everything is a bed of roses, sometimes there are thorns. But we failed to communicate with each other effectively in ways that we could understand. I complained about lack of sex - closeness, intimacy. In the end the good, did not outweigh the bad in her mind and she fell in love with someone else and demonized me severely leading up to and during the affair.
> 
> It was hard for her to do that during the 5 month period though, while I was fighting for us and throwing myself on the sword, while doing what she was doing.
> 
> This is what I think she now gets, her hypocrisy, her negativity, her judgmental ways, her selfishness, her neediness, all of it. She is ashamed and I feel she is remorseful and I know she wants to move on from it. I know part of her feels like I am not allowing her to move on and heal. Maybe that should be the least of her concerns as I'm still working on my healing and getting myself unstuck from this mess.
> 
> I've been very cold this past week. It's been a very hard few days actually. I have been contemplating a different life. Contemplating whether I still lover her or how I could still love someone that treated me so poorly for so long. How could I love someone that risked something I held so sacred - our family - time and time again.
> 
> 1x a mistake, 2x another mistake for a slow learner. 35-50x (or more) after being given another chance to make it right?? A lot of pain and a lot of damage. So back to my kids and the family and life they believe is wonderful, innocent, happy with a mommy and daddy that love each other - too much in their opinion sometimes, when we're affectionate. It breaks my heart to think about disrupting that now that she is trying and her head it screwed on straight. I wonder if filing would help us in the long run. I wonder if I just keep my focus on the kids if everything else will work itself out over time. I wish someone would tell me what the right decision is. I keep looking for that one piece of evidence that will definitively tell me what to do - like breaking NC or something that will reveal to me her true allegiance.
> 
> She asked me last night WWJD? Love, Forgive, Follow Me I said. I think that is the answer even in light of all these bad choices, mistakes, lies, deceit, still mistakes made and imperfect character flaws. I agree there needs to be a leap of faith to heal. That there has to be more that cannot be understood or explained. I have felt truly loved and happy during the past year, but I always seem to gravitate back to that time and get sucked into the darkness and it consumes me as it does now.
> 
> I have told her I don't want her to be with me for any other reason than she loves me for who I am. All of it. But hypocritically, I don't know that I am staying just for her. I guess I have stayed in large part because of the kids - and the possibility for happiness down the road with the whole family package. If it were only her and I, I'm pretty sure I would have already filed. I don't know that says if anything other than the wounds are deep and the pain is still there.
> 
> Warlock, believe me I do NOT enjoy the drama. I guess I post to help clarify my own thoughts on this and then read the reaction. Maybe I come here to have a pity party for myself and feel sorry for myself rather than be thankful for what I have. I know I don't articulate everything very clearly or communicate as effectively as some here, but your questions are provocative.
> 
> I will look into the former WWs posting you and LW have suggested for other insight.


I started to mark this up to do a detailed reply but I think it's a waste of time. So let me just say this. She changed jobs, but did it on her own time table and moved into a better paying job, something she probably would have done if she were planning to leave you. She also went NC with the affair partner after realizing that he wasn't going to leave his wife for her. She has done NOTHING for YOU. NOTHING. 

LongWalk, I don't understand why you keep insisting this isn't rug sweeping. It's the worst example of rug sweeping I've seen.


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## turnera

So why don't you just start scheduling MC appointments and tell her you expect her to go? If nothing else, you'll be able to say how you feel there.


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## warlock07

The sense I get from the post is that she is just doing enough to keep the heads above water. While manipulate is a bit more negative than I want it to be, it does seem that she manages your feelings. 



> "You not being able to get over it is why we are not able to move on."


This is not good at all...


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## drifting on

Road Scholar

I don't believe I am in the position to give advice but I believe we are both in roughly the same spot in our marriage and reconciliation. For me I also go back to the time of WW's affair and become consumed in the darkness. I think twice about my decisions that have lead me to this moment. I feel lost and question whether I am right for staying or am I staying for my kids. I don't know. This is the hardest part for me personally. I feel as if I don't want a divorce but know deep down I should. I want to R successfully but I'm haunted by the thoughts that I should have divorced. WW is doing everything right but I question is that enough? For six months I was treated terribly as she loved someone else. That alone causes me pain that is unbearable.

I have thought that since my marriage is sacred to me, as is my family, to end the marriage and then try to reconcile. Maybe I would feel better knowing that marriage my WW through away is now over and then try to rebuild. I think of the terrible treatment I received and would WW have given me this chance. I wonder what our future holds after the kids leave home and if I will find peace and happiness with her. I have thought of new rings for her and I and to renew our vows and have that as our anniversary date. My anniversary date now only brought sadness to me as that marriage died when she let OM into the marriage. 

I have nothing but respect for you as a human being and a man. I don't know of anyone, including myself, that would have endured what you have. I wish you peace and happiness.

Side note, we are probably within an hour of your location if I am thinking correctly from your toll receipts.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Openminded

A truly remorseful wife acts much differently from the way your wife acts. She should have done anything you needed in order for you to take her back. But she didn't do that and still isn't doing it. She's the only one who knows why she hasn't. Obviously, her way is not the right way to reconcile successfully. 

You're a good guy and you didn't deserve any of this. I hope you find peace.


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## LongWalk

Good post. And it will help others who are struggling with their own difficult decisions.

Some people are more selfish than others. Partly it's hereditary, partly a reaction to childhood circumstance. If your wife genuinely less selfish, less sorry for herself and demonstrates it in day to day behavior maybe you cannot ask for more.

Exposure to her father might have helped back after Dday One or even Dday 2. Now, in fact, exposure is always hanging over her head, for if you decided to divorce and they pressed you to explain, all you would do is tell them to ask her.

She loved him and probably in her own mind there was a period of confusion. Had he thrown her under the bus or did the two of them agree that they had no choice put to sacrifice their secret pleasure because it was ruined. Probably she no longer believes that it was going anywhere, but this is also a rewrite of history.

RS,

You have pinned her down a couple of times to say that she was totally commited to him a several points. She even spoke of divorce.

It is also noteworthy that she considered R preferable to D. Not all WW are willing to eat humble pie, even if they know in their hearts that it would be better to let love grow again. 

By the time they want to try again the opportunity is gone. Shamwow's WW would have had a chance had she expressed remorse early on. Eric's WW wanted R, too, but she was to mixed up to figure out how to reconcile.


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## bfree

So she blameshifted the affair onto you and now she's blameshifting the false R onto you as well...and using Jesus to do it?! RS, this is not how a person who is remorseful behaves. She's saying you should just get over it. If she were doing what she should be doing YOU WOULD BE GETTING OVER IT! You need to change the dynamic and direction of this reconciliation before your false R fails completely. You are in limbo. It will not, cannot last. Take action my friend. You are stagnant.


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## turnera

IMO, your children would be better served by a father living in a different home where he is full of life, loving life and his kids, and showing them a home full of values and dignity. Not one he shares with their mom where he becomes more and more a shell of a man as the months go on - or worse.


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## Road Scholar

bfree said:


> WWJD? Really RS? Let's ask:
> 
> Matthew 5:23-24
> 
> 23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; 24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
> 
> Had she reconciled with the ones that she harmed? Has she atoned with those she wronged. Because in Jesus' own words you cannot make it right with God until you make it right with man.


I do not want to defend her but only offer that she did go to confession with our pastor and while I don't know all that was said, I believe she did confess this sin to him and to God. Of course, he told her that her sins are forgiven and she is like a newborn baby - free of it. I think she feels in her heart by treating me well and as she should always have, over the last year that she is making attempts to make it up to me and making amends. 

I have thought about asking her to tell her parents. They went through it. She cheated on him and a bitter divorce ensued eventually splitting up her and her brother into two different homes if you can imagine. She with her mom, her brother with her dad. So yeah I think there's some damage to her from that. But wouldn't you have thought it would have taught her a lesson about cheating?? The fact is as much as she resents her mom for what she did back then, the apple doesn't fall too far from the tree. Both are self-centered and selfish by nature.


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## RV9

RS, somewhere down the line you will break down. You don't have your closure. It's like a wound that'll keep festering till it infects every part of your life. If you want to fight for your marriage, fight for the truth. Every day you are in the dark, a little resentment creeps in and one day you'd realize you hate your wife so much that you hate yourself for staying. 

Remorse without truth is regret. This is rugsweeping. We are rooting for you, rather than your marriage because you can save your marriage only if you save yourself.


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## LongWalk

And therein lies the threat to R. Small but irritating acts of selfishness may trigger you more that some hitherto unknown afternoon hotel quickie that occurred after Dday1.


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## manfromlamancha

I agree with what is being said. You still do not have the "truth" from her leave alone real remorse - and linked to that is the very simple fact that she is not truly remorseful - and linked to that is that she is only sorry about being caught.

As has been said, you will continue to trigger and while you hold your vows sacred and all that, it will gradually eat away at your very soul. All this while she continues to believe that she is forgiven (less importantly by you and more importantly by God, all because some pastor said so!).

Some posts ago I called her a monster. You said she may not be a monster. I still stand by what I said.

While I understand you needing to do this "for your family" and "because you hold your vows sacred", I cannot respect this as it is a form of cowardice (that admittedly we all face at different times in our life). At some stage, you will (excuse the cliche saying) have to be a man and stand up for what is right. You know that this isn't right and at the moment everyone else can see this.

Even if you really want to help her, you need to stand up for yourself. It might be that when she sees some real response from you and real consequences for her actions that she becomes a better person.


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## tryingpatience

Road Scholar said:


> 1x a mistake, 2x another mistake for a slow learner. 35-50x (or more) after being given another chance to make it right?? A lot of pain and a lot of damage. So back to my kids and the family and life they believe is wonderful, innocent, happy with a mommy and daddy that love each other - too much in their opinion sometimes, when we're affectionate. It breaks my heart to think about disrupting that now that she is trying and her head it screwed on straight. I wonder if filing would help us in the long run. I wonder if I just keep my focus on the kids if everything else will work itself out over time. I wish someone would tell me what the right decision is. I keep looking for that one piece of evidence that will definitively tell me what to do - like breaking NC or something that will reveal to me her true allegiance.


You'll never find the answer waiting on her to do something. I truly believe that this is your decision to make. Yours alone. I have a friend who decided to keep his family together after he found out his wife cheated with a co-worker. His twin boys are finishing up high school and now he's decided that he is finally going to divorce his wife. He felt that he did what he needed to do to raise these boys right.

He's starting over again and finding it hard to date at his age. The irony about the whole situation is that his boys always knew that their parents weren't in love. Even from a young age. So what did he teach them? He just model for them an unhealthy marriage. He just taught them that it is OK to not have boundaries. Not having boundaries is what gets many of us BS and WS in trouble to begin with.


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## NoChoice

Road Scholar said:


> I do not want to defend her but only offer that she did go to confession with our pastor and while I don't know all that was said, I believe she did confess this sin to him and to God. Of course, he told her that her sins are forgiven and she is like a newborn baby - free of it. I think she feels in her heart by treating me well and as she should always have, over the last year that she is making attempts to make it up to me and making amends.
> 
> I have thought about asking her to tell her parents. They went through it. She cheated on him and a bitter divorce ensued eventually splitting up her and her brother into two different homes if you can imagine. She with her mom, her brother with her dad. So yeah I think there's some damage to her from that. But wouldn't you have thought it would have taught her a lesson about cheating?? The fact is as much as she resents her mom for what she did back then, the apple doesn't fall too far from the tree. *Both are self-centered and selfish by nature.*


RS, this statement is very telling. Of course it's up to you but I would advise having her confess to her parents for many reasons but one main reason. Self absorbed people need to feel discomfort (pain) to help them to understand how others feel because of their actions and the pain you experienced. By allowing her to skate on this, she dodged part of the pain associated with her actions.

I believe it to be necessary in her growth. We all have to face the music. You may say but what will it accomplish now and the answer is it will help build her character.

ETA: I was in a rush earlier when I wrote this and I wanted to expound a little more. I am not a religious person but I have studied many different religious beliefs in my search for truth. The core of Christianity is grace and forgiveness but there is also accountability. There is a verse in the Bible that states that if anyone will come to Christ, *confess his sins*, that he is faithful and just to forgive his sins and cleanse him from all unrighteousness.

The key is that there must be confession. I know she went to your pastor/priest and confessed but that was a private encounter with no open shame or humiliation. Don't misunderstand, it's not about shaming and humiliating her but rather about her standing in the face of severe personal pain and accepting the consequences of her "sins". It speaks to her character and her integrity, two things she cast serious aspersion on by her actions.

Look, the whole purpose of R is to live a happy life together going forward and part of that process allows the WS to experience personal growth in character, integrity, honesty and so on by owning what they did. I believe that by rug sweeping this you are depriving her of some of that necessary growth. Also, any information you request she should immediately provide proving complete transparency and openness.

She's afraid it might push you over the edge, that's good, she needs to feel that fear to help her understand vulnerability. Haven't you felt it? Shouldn't she? Again not because you need to punish her but so she can understand how it feels to trust your entire future to another person like you have done with her. She must also do that with you if R is to succeed. These are necessary steps to ensure her growth and the fact that you won't be here again in a couple of years asking what went wrong.

Now, once she has done this and satisfied all of your needs, wants and questions regarding the A then you must begin again. The wife you married is gone forever and now you must start anew with this person. You will however, have the advantage of seeing her go through all of the things necessary to come out on the other side and you will have a pretty good idea of her character and integrity based on how she handled the really tough parts. If she skates on them though, you will never really know.


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## bfree

*Re: Re: No sex after her affair...*



Road Scholar said:


> I do not want to defend her but only offer that she did go to confession with our pastor and while I don't know all that was said, I believe she did confess this sin to him and to God. Of course, he told her that her sins are forgiven and she is like a newborn baby - free of it. I think she feels in her heart by treating me well and as she should always have, over the last year that she is making attempts to make it up to me and making amends.
> 
> I have thought about asking her to tell her parents. They went through it. She cheated on him and a bitter divorce ensued eventually splitting up her and her brother into two different homes if you can imagine. She with her mom, her brother with her dad. So yeah I think there's some damage to her from that. But wouldn't you have thought it would have taught her a lesson about cheating?? The fact is as much as she resents her mom for what she did back then, the apple doesn't fall too far from the tree. Both are self-centered and selfish by nature.


RS, you do realize what that passage meant. She cannot be free from sin if she doesn't make it right with you first. And frankly she should be making it right with anyone else affected by her sin. This may include her parents, your parents, friends, other relatives, co workers, etc.


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## LongWalk

RS, if you put NoChoice's suggestion to her — you are going to tell her dad, what would her reaction be?

I think she would prefer to fill in the time line with more of her illicit meetings than confess to him. 

Clearly it would force her to examine herself even more deeply since he would take her affair as a betrayal of him as well.


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## Buddy400

RS,

If you (not TAM posters) need anything else out of her, by all means, demand it. It looks like she's willing to do anything if you threaten her.

The only thing that would worry me going forward is; what happens when you start being nice to her again? As long as you have the leverage (which you've had since DDAY2), she's fine.

Can you handle the relationship being so one-sided?


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## Road Scholar

LongWalk said:


> RS, if you put NoChoice's suggestion to her — you are going to tell her dad, what would her reaction be?
> 
> I think she would prefer to fill in the time line with more of her illicit meetings than confess to him.
> 
> Clearly it would force her to examine herself even more deeply since he would take her affair as a betrayal of him as well.


My guess would be that she would say she would do it if I felt it would help, but then try to convince me otherwise. That it is a very personal matter between her and I and no one else should be involved. She may bring up the 3x that things "got physical" between us and would I want to discuss that also. (I would)

But then what. Did it help others to reveal to family/friends? Dr Mathias's and many others still seem to struggle right? I keep looking for the magic bullet but there isn't one. No amount of details provided seems like it will ever be 100% complete or accurate or true. I think I may always wonder, what else don't I know. Or even question what I do know. No amount of remorse, tears, pleas for forgiveness, snot and tears and sobbing on the floor will take away the pain permanently it seems. Those shows of emotion and affection seem to work temporarily and then the memories of her actions come racing back, encasing me in my own fog. She says it was never meant to hurt me....how selfish, immature and naive. 

She says that she cannot even remember dates/times etc. - but this has been the case since the start. So I guess it is BS. It's like she wasn't there or something. For me certain dates are engrained in my mind forever 2/28, 4/29, 5/1, 7/18, 7/19, 8/9, 9/18, etc. Is that possible or she simply stonewalling because I have allowed it? Any previous experience with that?


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## warlock07

The exposure depends on the situation. I'm would be more interested in how she would react to exposure rather than actual exposure if that makes sense.

In your case, I think you are still married only because you held back on exposure. I don't know if it was shame or love for you that motivated her to R. And I think that is something that is quite important for you to find out. Would she still be with you if you she knows that you will never expose ?(_Cause you are better than that_)

Is she still good to you these days, RS ? Give us a honest answer instead of a glass half full angle.




> I do not want to defend her but only offer that she did go to confession with our pastor and while I don't know all that was said, I believe she did confess this sin to him and to God. Of course, he told her that her sins are forgiven and she is like a newborn baby - free of it


I hate religious hypocrites who use God as an excuse.


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## Openminded

In my opinion, she wants to rug-sweep because she wants it all to go away forever. My now ex-husband did the same thing. Unlike you, I didn't have TAM at the time to set me straight about what's real remorse and what isn't. 

Even now, after our 45 year marriage is over, and he wishes very much that it weren't over, all he can bring himself to say is he made "mistakes". But what he did no longer matters to me. I've forgiven him and moved on. 

My life without him is good. I have peace.


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## warlock07

> She says that she cannot even remember dates/times etc. - but this has been the case since the start. So I guess it is BS. It's like she wasn't there or something. For me certain dates are engrained in my mind forever 2/28, 4/29, 5/1, 7/18, 7/19, 8/9, 9/18, etc. Is that possible or she simply stonewalling because I have allowed it? Any previous experience with that?


I think there was similar story on TAM. Anyone remember the user name? It started with 'Z' I think.

His WS would claim no memory of the affair. She blamed her depression for the loss of mem. He went on for a year or two before he gave her an ultimatum. It went something like this 

"You lying to me about not remembering them anymore is a dealbreaker to me. I may or may not divorce you after hearing about the affair details but I will definitely divorce you if you keep lying about not remembering them."

RS, you are going through a false R. You are not going to heal. Take some actions even if it hurts both of you to save this in the long run. Your weakness is letting your wife continue as a dishonest manipulative person.


----------



## bfree

Road Scholar said:


> My guess would be that she would say she would do it if I felt it would help, but then try to convince me otherwise. That it is a very personal matter between her and I and no one else should be involved. She may bring up the 3x that things "got physical" between us and would I want to discuss that also. (I would)
> 
> But then what. Did it help others to reveal to family/friends? Dr Mathias's and many others still seem to struggle right? I keep looking for the magic bullet but there isn't one. No amount of details provided seems like it will ever be 100% complete or accurate or true. I think I may always wonder, what else don't I know. Or even question what I do know. No amount of remorse, tears, pleas for forgiveness, snot and tears and sobbing on the floor will take away the pain permanently it seems. Those shows of emotion and affection seem to work temporarily and then the memories of her actions come racing back, encasing me in my own fog. She says it was never meant to hurt me....how selfish, immature and naive.
> 
> She says that she cannot even remember dates/times etc. - but this has been the case since the start. So I guess it is BS. It's like she wasn't there or something. For me certain dates are engrained in my mind forever 2/28, 4/29, 5/1, 7/18, 7/19, 8/9, 9/18, etc. Is that possible or she simply stonewalling because I have allowed it? Any previous experience with that?


It helped EI and B1 in their R. It helped Dig in their R. It helped Regret in her R. It has helped so many that yes I believe it is as close to a magic bullet as you're going to find. Atonement. It's a big word and an even bigger idea. By refusing to atone for her transgressions she is rebelling against God. By allowing it to occur you are also ignoring God.

_Matthew 18:15
Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother._

There is a reason Dr. Harley and almost all other experts advocate exposure. Because it helps the BS to not feel so alone. You do feel all alone in this don't you RS? And how could you not. She and her affair partner got to have sex and yet you got screwed. I know you've said she has felt consequences but you and I both know those are trivial at best. She hasn't lost anything has she? She gets to play the nice strong loyal wife to the rest of the world while you sit there knowing the truth...alone. Her lover got off scott free, no consequences there either. And you sit there alone. You want to know why you are not going to recover from this betrayal? Because you're trying to do it all alone.


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## NoChoice

Road Scholar said:


> My guess would be that she would say she would do it if I felt it would help, but then try to convince me otherwise. That it is a very personal matter between her and I and no one else should be involved. *She may bring up the 3x that things "got physical" between us and would I want to discuss that also. (I would)*


So you tell on me and I'll tell on you?? Really? She does not sound like one ready to own her actions. I am sorry RS but that is the truth.



> But then what. *Did it help others to reveal to family/friends?*


RS, it is a process. The airing the dirty laundry isn't the issue it's ability/willingness to OWN what she did. No excuses, no wavering, no blame shifting, just owning it and facing the music. It's about character, integrity and honesty.



> Dr Mathias's and many others still seem to struggle right? I keep looking for the magic bullet but there isn't one. No amount of details provided seems like it will ever be 100% complete or accurate or true. I think I may always wonder, what else don't I know. Or even question what I do know. No amount of remorse, tears, pleas for forgiveness, snot and tears and sobbing on the floor will take away the pain permanently it seems. Those shows of emotion and affection seem to work temporarily and then the memories of her actions come racing back, encasing me in my own fog. She says it was never meant to hurt me....how selfish, immature and naive.
> 
> She says that she cannot even remember dates/times etc. - but this has been the case since the start. So I guess it is BS. It's like she wasn't there or something. For me certain dates are engrained in my mind forever 2/28, 4/29, 5/1, 7/18, 7/19, 8/9, 9/18, etc. Is that possible or she simply stonewalling because I have allowed it? Any previous experience with that?


This is only important if it's important to you. If you need information to be able to see what you are forgiving then she will have to recall.



warlock07 said:


> I think there was similar story on TAM. Anyone remember the user name? It started with 'Z' I think.
> 
> His WS would claim no memory of the affair. She blamed her depression for the loss of mem. He went on for a year or two before he gave her an ultimatum. It went something like this
> 
> "You lying to me about not remembering them anymore is a dealbreaker to me. I may or may not divorce you after hearing about the affair details but I will definitely divorce you if you keep lying about not remembering them."
> 
> *RS, you are going through a false R. You are not going to heal. Take some actions even if it hurts both of you to save this in the long run. Your weakness is letting your wife continue as a dishonest manipulative person.*


Warlock does not mince words. This is truth. She wants to bury this and go back to life as before. That cannot happen because the old her is deceased. She want's you to resurrect her and go back to wonderland, that is simply unrealistic and not possible for a successful R.


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## bfree

RS, this is a letter that EI wrote to B1. I want you to read these words and know that she put actions, not just once but continuously behind these words. EI self exposed her affair so that she could eventually purge that sin from her soul. She disclosed every fact that B1 wanted to know without hesitation. Theirs is probably the most successful reconciliation I have ever been privileged to witness. Now you tell me if this sounds like your wife at all.

*A letter for my Betrayed

I want you to know..........

I hate that my actions have caused you to have to carry the burden of resentment in your soul,

I hate knowing that you feel bitter towards me and possibly others, as well. I hate what that has taken from you and I hate what it does to me. But, I know, that it was my choice that brought this Hell into our lives. It is my earned cross to bear, but I hate that you must bear it, also.

I hate that my actions took something precious from both of us. Something so real and so vital to the core of our beings that neither of us will ever truly feel the same, again.. I hate that you have to live with the undeserved pain of feeling violated and incomplete because of my selfish choice. I hate that I must forever live with the knowledge, shame and guilt that I feel knowing that I took that from you.

I hate that you will never enjoy the comfort of naïveté about unconditional love and trust, again. The kind of love that is so deep that it can only be shared from a parent to a child or from two adults in a healthy, loving, committed and monogamous relationship. Whether you understand or believe it or not, I robbed myself of the same naïveté with my lies, deceit and betrayal of you.

I hate knowing that by my simply attempting to enjoy even the most mundane pleasures of life like interacting with our children and playing with our grandson and laughing at the precious things they do might actually cause you pain. I struggle daily to walk a fine line of trying to heal myself and move forward, honestly believing that the best way that I can help you heal is to try to heal myself, as well. I believe that if I choose to wallow in my own misery and self-pity that all I have to offer you is a defeated and broken down version of myself..... not very much to inspire you to want to work with me towards building a happier, healthier future for the two of us. But, what helps you one day, may cause you pain the next....... I hate that for you..... I hate it for me, too.

I hate seeing the pain in your eyes as a certain song plays on the radio, or we pass a certain restaurant, or a specific date on the calendar is approaching. I hate wondering if I should speak first about the "elephant" in the room or if I should wait and take your lead. I promise you, I have not forgotten how I hurt you, our children and our extended family..... nor will I ever be free of this self-imposed burden that I carry. I feel a tremendous desire, and obligation, to build a new life, a happy life, a healthy life for all of us. I don't know how to move towards that future if I am always dwelling on the past. 

I hate the damage that I have caused you. But, I also envy you, too. If you choose, you can walk away from all of this, from me, your betrayer. It would not undo the damage to your soul or erase your pain..... But, you can choose to begin a new life, unencumbered by the presence of the very one who betrayed you and destroyed our marriage. I cannot. Until the day I take my last breath, I have to look in the mirror and see the face of the person responsible for destroying my family, the ones I love most in this world..... the family who calls me "Wife" and "Mom."


I am so, so, so very sorry....... But, I know that will never be enough to heal all of our broken hearts... And, I hate that, too.... </3*


----------



## LongWalk

Nucking Futs said:


> I started to mark this up to do a detailed reply but I think it's a waste of time. So let me just say this. She changed jobs, but did it on her own time table and moved into a better paying job, something she probably would have done if she were planning to leave you. She also went NC with the affair partner after realizing that he wasn't going to leave his wife for her. She has done NOTHING for YOU. NOTHING.
> 
> LongWalk, I don't understand why you keep insisting this isn't rug sweeping. It's the worst example of rug sweeping I've seen.


I agree that rug sweeping is going on. The question is what does RS want to do about it. What is missing? A lot of detail, actually. But mostly the principle facts are clear.

1) the affair was extended in time
2) it did not dissolve of its own accord
3) it was physical and emotional
4) it was arguably an exit affair at times, while at other moments it was just for pleasure and emotional reward
5) it was an exclusive relationship; she cut RS off sexually as much as possible before Dday1 and afterwards
6) the affair damaged their family
7) it risked WW's job and livelihood
8) it raised the possibilty of them losing their home
9) it may have exposed them to STDs
10) it may have resulted in an "unplanned" pregnancy (I don't remember any discussion of this. Did RS every ask her if she longed for OM's baby? )
11) she lied and gaslighted

I don't think any of the above is contested by his wife?

So further fact finding would only flesh out details.

The questions that matter IMO:

1) does RS love her? Sometimes he says yes, sometimes no
2) is she really an improved person. Sometimes he says yes, but sometimes he is less convinced
3) does she love him?
4) is her love worth so much?
5) is their relationship improving?
6) is RS's healing progressing?
7) is WW okay, is she holding up?

Exposing to her father would be a life changing event. It would change her relationship with him. It would force her to work even hard on reconciliation or give up and seek divorce.

Another aspect of R is the role of RS's religious values. If she talks about WWJD, then she is presumably religious, too. But I don't get that impression from RS's description. The Narnia stories by CS Lewis include a character who falls from grace. What happens to her remains a mystery. One can easily imagine Susan being a cheater.



> In The Last Battle, Susan is conspicuous by her absence. Peter says that she is "no longer a friend of Narnia", and (in Jill Pole's words) "she's interested in nothing now-a-days except nylons and lipstick and invitations." Similarly, Eustace Scrubb quotes her as saying, "What wonderful memories you have! Fancy you still thinking about all those funny games we used to play when we were children," and Polly Plummer adds, "She wasted all her school time wanting to be the age she is now, and she'll waste all the rest of her life trying to stay that age. Her whole idea is to race on to the silliest time of one's life as quick as she can and then stop there as long as she can." Thus, Susan does not enter the real Narnia with the others at the end of the series.
> 
> It is left ambiguous whether Susan's absence is permanent, especially since Lewis stated elsewhere that:
> 
> The books don't tell us what happened to Susan. She is left alive in this world at the end, having by then turned into a rather silly, conceited young woman. But there's plenty of time for her to mend and perhaps she will get to Aslan's country in the end... in her own way.[4]
> 
> In his Companion to Narnia, Paul F. Ford writes at the end of the entry for Susan Pevensie that "Susan's is one of the most important Unfinished Tales of The Chronicles of Narnia", but adds in Footnote 1 for that entry:
> 
> This is not to say, as some critics have maintained, that she is lost forever ... It is a mistake to think that Susan was killed in the railway accident at the end of The Last Battle and that she has forever fallen from grace. It is to be assumed, rather, that as a woman of twenty-one who has just lost her entire family in a terrible crash, she will have much to work through; in the process, she might change to become truly the gentle person she has the potential for being.


----------



## Archangel2

Road Scholar said:


> I do not want to defend her but only offer that she did go to confession with our pastor and while I don't know all that was said, I believe she did confess this sin to him and to God. Of course, he told her that her sins are forgiven and she is like a newborn baby - free of it. I think she feels in her heart by treating me well and as she should always have, over the last year that she is making attempts to make it up to me and making amends.


RS- She may have gone to confession, but did she make a good confession? It is one thing to confess committing adultery (in general), but another to confess committing adultery and lying and deceiving her husband over the course of many months.Your pastor may have told her her sins were forgiven, but the sin of hurting you was not forgiven because she did not bother to confess it. She may have minimized her actions even in the eyes of God!


----------



## warlock07

Rs, think about why we are having this discussion after so long after D-day 2.


----------



## jim123

Road Scholar said:


> My guess would be that she would say she would do it if I felt it would help, but then try to convince me otherwise. That it is a very personal matter between her and I and no one else should be involved. She may bring up the 3x that things "got physical" between us and would I want to discuss that also. (I would)
> 
> But then what. Did it help others to reveal to family/friends? Dr Mathias's and many others still seem to struggle right? I keep looking for the magic bullet but there isn't one. No amount of details provided seems like it will ever be 100% complete or accurate or true. I think I may always wonder, what else don't I know. Or even question what I do know. No amount of remorse, tears, pleas for forgiveness, snot and tears and sobbing on the floor will take away the pain permanently it seems. Those shows of emotion and affection seem to work temporarily and then the memories of her actions come racing back, encasing me in my own fog. She says it was never meant to hurt me....how selfish, immature and naive.
> 
> She says that she cannot even remember dates/times etc. - but this has been the case since the start. So I guess it is BS. It's like she wasn't there or something. For me certain dates are engrained in my mind forever 2/28, 4/29, 5/1, 7/18, 7/19, 8/9, 9/18, etc. Is that possible or she simply stonewalling because I have allowed it? Any previous experience with that?


Yes you allow it and that is why it has happened.

There are two issues with this. A marriage must be rebuilt on truth which then brings trust. The fact that he will not be honest with you is because she does not trust you. Despite all you have out up with, she does not have faith in you to tell you the truth.

Any marriage can not last without honesty and trust. Your marriage will not be able to make it through a tuff time. 

She needs to trust you and that you love her enough to handle the truth.


----------



## Thor

Successful R requires the two people to change and to find the new marriage fulfilling.

The BS needs to change from being the emotionally gutted shell he/she becomes upon d-day. The BS has to find a way to put the grief, anger, and resentments behind. The BS has to find affection, love, and compassion for the WS.

The WS needs to change from being a dishonest, disloyal spouse. The WS needs to find a way to recognize the terrible choices and behaviors they exhibited, and expunge those from their universe of what is acceptable to themselves. The WS has to repudiate in their heart and soul who they were, and they have to hold the AP in contempt for being a willing accomplice in the affair.

Both need each other to heal. The BS cannot heal himself alone. He needs the WS to demonstrate consistently she has changed. The WS needs the BS to eventually accept them and stop punishing them.

One poster used the term "capitulation", and I think it is a necessary step for the WS to go through in order for the BS to heal. It is one of the things the WS has to do to help the BS heal.

The timeline might provide more facts, but that is not the issue. The issue is the WS demonstrating she has changed, and is now completely loyal and honest to the BS. Refusal to provide a timeline, or feigned amnesia about events, contradicts loyalty and honesty.

The BS can't do R alone.


----------



## farsidejunky

RS:

I really hate the situation you are in. It is not an easy situation, but it is simple.

What do you need to know to reasonably put your mind at ease? Note I said reasonably because it will probably never be, nor should it be, fully at ease.

Once you know that, you sit your spouse down and explain to her that you love her, but won't continue without "insert needed information here".

Explain to her feigned memory loss and I don't know, outright refusal or threatening tit for tat (getting physical) shows you the love is not reciprocated, and you will have no choice but to move on.

Give her 5 minutes to give you the information you need. If she does not disclose, inform her you will be consulting a divorce attorney. And do it, combined with a 180, with full exposure.

I am sorry brother, but your wife is doing everything, to include threats and omissions of truth, to keep a lid on this. 

I ain't buying it. Your gut ain't buying it either.


----------



## LongWalk

> She says that she cannot even remember dates/times etc. - but this has been the case since the start. So I guess it is BS. It's like she wasn't there or something. For me certain dates are engrained in my mind forever 2/28, 4/29, 5/1, 7/18, 7/19, 8/9, 9/18, etc. Is that possible or she simply stonewalling because I have allowed it? Any previous experience with that?


A married woman with a job and children does not have a lot of disposible time. She had to look her calender book and plan their rendezvous about windows of opportunity. It must have been tricky. A particular weekend, holiday or business trip required coordination with OM. They had to exchange ideas about days that could match. She must have waited while he worked things out with his wife. She must have felt joy and anticipation.

So, no, it is not possible that she forgot all of them. Perhaps one or two three days could be confused. But she could reconstruct most of it by ransacking her memory for details.

From an evolutionary point of view the dates are burnt into your mind because you were hypervigilant. From the hunting gathering point of view you could have saddled with a mouth to feed, one that would have taken away from your children. She was taking a risk. Didn't you once go to a hotel conference that you thought he was attending to confront him? That was analogous to one male primate stalking another in the forest.

It is difficult to reconcile the risk her selfish genes took with her assurances that it was all an aberration. That it never was. It was nature plain and simple.

From the selfish gene point of view a woman later in her reproductive life would be torn. Having sex with you while the affair was going would sabotage her liminal desire to beget his child, but refusing you sex would raise your suspicions. 

After Dday one the secrecy was gone. Thus, she cut you off completely to maximize the meaning of her sexual encounters with him.

Now that the affair has proven a failure, evolution has given her brain a means of coping. She is trying to forget it to put the risk behind her. That is why throwing sex at the BH is so important to R. Hysterical bonding makes great evolutionary sense. How many males throughout the eons have been overjoyed to win back a spouse who was actually pregnant?

Through religion civilization gave us a means of regulating conflict over sexual jealousy. But if churches have lost much of their power over peoples lives, our desire for order remains. The incessant media coverage of celebrity relationships has become a sort of replacement. Even TAM fills a need. Exposing a wayward spouse here is also cathartic.

RS, when you wife left her job to break the connection with OM, she must have felt great relief that the email system that connected them vanished. OM could not pop up and message her. All of their work place emails that contained timeline information were deleted.

Funny that society sends criminals to prisons so that they can mull over their misdeeds.


----------



## NoChoice

RS, we are using different verbiage but we are all saying the same thing. Her willingness to own what she did in the sight of God and man is crucially important as an indicator of where her true intent lies. If she is more concerned about her own discomfort than about yours, she's not ready to R.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Road Scholar said:


> My guess would be that she would say she would do it if I felt it would help, but then try to convince me otherwise. That it is a very personal matter between her and I and no one else should be involved. She may bring up the 3x that things "got physical" between us and would I want to discuss that also. (I would)
> 
> But then what. Did it help others to reveal to family/friends? Dr Mathias's and many others still seem to struggle right? I keep looking for the magic bullet but there isn't one. No amount of details provided seems like it will ever be 100% complete or accurate or true. I think I may always wonder, what else don't I know. Or even question what I do know. No amount of remorse, tears, pleas for forgiveness, snot and tears and sobbing on the floor will take away the pain permanently it seems. Those shows of emotion and affection seem to work temporarily and then the memories of her actions come racing back, encasing me in my own fog. She says it was never meant to hurt me....how selfish, immature and naive.
> 
> She says that she cannot even remember dates/times etc. - but this has been the case since the start. So I guess it is BS. It's like she wasn't there or something. For me certain dates are engrained in my mind forever 2/28, 4/29, 5/1, 7/18, 7/19, 8/9, 9/18, etc. Is that possible or she simply stonewalling because I have allowed it? Any previous experience with that?


I am breaking my self-imposed TAM ban since Matt and I have been mentioned several times in this thread.

RS, I am so sorry for what you are going through. You're right, there is no magic bullet. Matt and I are nearing our 2 year D-Day anniversary, and while most days things are ok, there is still a lot of pain and we are both aware of the significant damage to ourselves and our relationship. The "average" recovery is 2-5 years. Some, like B1 and EI are able to progress faster, but for us it is a slower road - completely due to the False R that I put Matt through.

Matt did not expose after D-Day 1, and did immediately after D-Day 2. It was good for me to help reintroduce reality and consequences. I would never have dreamed of asking him not to do that, even at my "foggiest". As a matter of fact, I even messaged the person who brought about D-Day 2 and thanked her for looking out for Matt's best interests. Exposure to my parents involved a conference call where Matt requested that I detail the affair, including the sexual acts to them. I did not hesitate, nor did I attempt to minimize at that point. *I could fully confess what I did because I believed it had already cost me everything, and there was nothing to try to "save" anymore.* I did not speak to his family at that point - I attempted to call his mother to apologize, but she did not answer and I left a voicemail. I did follow up with them in person, each privately, when I was allowed to attend Christmas after the affair, and apologized individually for the hurt I'd caused Matt and them, as well as telling them that I would do whatever Matt decided was best and necessary for his healing.

I can't say for certain, because I am not your wife, but if she believes the details will be what cause you to end the relationship, I believe she will withhold them from you until you show her the relationship is ended without them. I would advise you to think very seriously about what level of detail you need to feel she is being honest, transparent, and loyal to your needs vs. what will be detrimental to your own state of mind and healing from the affair. Matt wanted very detailed, specific descriptions about my encounters with OM and I answered completely. But it can be very difficult once that knowledge is in your head to lay it to rest. I can also say that I am not good with dates - even right after D-Day, other than 2 specific times that were related to unusual events/locations, the most date info I could provide was last week of September, middle of October type dates. But I could and did give that info to him.

Matt is by nature a very analytical, thoughtful individual. His struggles are similar to yours - he is in a relationship with me, engaged with our children, but often faces that inner voice that says "How can you stay with someone who did this to you?" "What kind of man would accept that?" Honestly, I do not know what can help offer Matt a sense of self-respect and esteem without divorcing me and ending the relationship. But at the same time, he has said that he doesn't think he will be better off if we split. So that's an enduring conflict in him. All I can do each day is try to build the type of relationship that he deserves, with a loving, thoughtful wife who prioritizes him and is dedicated to his happiness and their family and hope that he can find respect for himself as someone who is gracious at heart, offering me the chance to demonstrate change, and feel his grace was rewarded by that change. He has said at this point that he feels I am consistently doing everything possible to help him heal and us progress through R, and has acknowledged that something needs to happen within him to reach the next stage in healing. But he doesn't know what that is or how to reach it. He feels like he knows what he "should" have done two years ago, but can't align that with our current situation. As much as I try to empathize and understand the pain and conflict I have created in him, I cannot truly grasp that dichotomy.

Regarding the little I know of your current R - there are a couple of concerns in your wife's behavior for me, primarily because I could not imagine holding those views/positions against someone I have so grievously wronged. 

1. Advocating against exposure. - That's simply self-preservation and continued selfishness, IMO. I wanted Matt to have all the support necessary in the time following D-Day. He was horrifically hurt, and needed and deserved the love and care of friends and family. Was it shameful for me? Of course, but that's my cost for the choices I made. Matt and you do not deserve continued loneliness and isolation as you face the most difficult time in your life.

2. Suggesting that she will tell on you in turn about your "physical" interactions. - More selfishness and an attempt to minimize her own wrongdoings by shifting attention onto your reaction toward it. Our interactions after D-Days were terrible. Matt reacted in ways neither of us knew he was capable of. That is all I will say about that. It was MY actions and MY choices that brought that response from him, and he is not guilty for being victimized and traumatized by me and his subsequent actions in the wake of that trauma. I would never attempt to blame him for any choices post D-Day.

3. Suggesting that your inability to "get over it" is what is preventing your relationship from moving forward. - You will never "get over it". I am nauseated that she would even consider that a possibility. I am dumbfounded that she thinks she will ever "get over it". While she may think she understands the affair and doesn't need IC/MC, this is a clear sign to me that she does not and/or is not truly remorseful, simply regretful of the fallout she faces and is trying to patch it over. I will spend every day of the rest of my life supporting Matt, helping him when he struggles. That is HOW our relationship goes forward. Eventually those struggles lessen, and hopefully our future will be a net positive - that is what we are working towards. YOU are not an obstacle. Her choice to have an affair is. It is HER job to do everything possible to help carry you through that obstacle SHE created, not complain that you haven't surmounted it after such a short time.

4. Pleading for forgiveness. - While I have hope that someday Matt will reach a point where he can consider forgiving me, I cannot imagine ever asking him to do that. I can't picture any level of atonement that would ever make me feel like I have earned the right to be forgiven for creating such destruction in him. I would never even broach such a topic with him.

I am truly sorry to point these things out, but to me, they reflect someone who is trying to help herself feel better, rather than help YOU feel better. She may not even realize that herself - she may see these things as necessary improvements for your "relationship" and therefore, the things that will help you. But at the root, they are not about that. My first and only priority after finally getting my head on straight is to help Matt. I would like to renew our relationship. But I will not put that above rebuilding Matt. If there is to be a relationship that we can both feel happy and fulfilled in, it has to come AFTER his personal well being.

I wish you the very best, and admire your dedication to your family and your values. I know they cannot soothe your personal pain, but I have tremendous respect for the efforts that you have been willing to make to attempt to preserve those.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

RS: this is what actual remorse looks like. Take a good look.


----------



## convert

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I am breaking my self-imposed TAM ban since Matt and I have been mentioned several times in this thread.
> 
> RS, I am so sorry for what you are going through. You're right, there is no magic bullet. Matt and I are nearing our 2 year D-Day anniversary, and while most days things are ok, there is still a lot of pain and we are both aware of the significant damage to ourselves and our relationship. The "average" recovery is 2-5 years. Some, like B1 and EI are able to progress faster, but for us it is a slower road - completely due to the False R that I put Matt through.
> 
> Matt did not expose after D-Day 1, and did immediately after D-Day 2. It was good for me to help reintroduce reality and consequences. I would never have dreamed of asking him not to do that, even at my "foggiest". As a matter of fact, I even messaged the person who brought about D-Day 2 and thanked her for looking out for Matt's best interests. Exposure to my parents involved a conference call where Matt requested that I detail the affair, including the sexual acts to them. I did not hesitate, nor did I attempt to minimize at that point. *I could fully confess what I did because I believed it had already cost me everything, and there was nothing to try to "save" anymore.* I did not speak to his family at that point - I attempted to call his mother to apologize, but she did not answer and I left a voicemail. I did follow up with them in person, each privately, when I was allowed to attend Christmas after the affair, and apologized individually for the hurt I'd caused Matt and them, as well as telling them that I would do whatever Matt decided was best and necessary for his healing.
> 
> I can't say for certain, because I am not your wife, but if she believes the details will be what cause you to end the relationship, I believe she will withhold them from you until you show her the relationship is ended without them. I would advise you to think very seriously about what level of detail you need to feel she is being honest, transparent, and loyal to your needs vs. what will be detrimental to your own state of mind and healing from the affair. Matt wanted very detailed, specific descriptions about my encounters with OM and I answered completely. But it can be very difficult once that knowledge is in your head to lay it to rest. I can also say that I am not good with dates - even right after D-Day, other than 2 specific times that were related to unusual events/locations, the most date info I could provide was last week of September, middle of October type dates. But I could and did give that info to him.
> 
> Matt is by nature a very analytical, thoughtful individual. His struggles are similar to yours - he is in a relationship with me, engaged with our children, but often faces that inner voice that says "How can you stay with someone who did this to you?" "What kind of man would accept that?" Honestly, I do not know what can help offer Matt a sense of self-respect and esteem without divorcing me and ending the relationship. But at the same time, he has said that he doesn't think he will be better off if we split. So that's an enduring conflict in him. All I can do each day is try to build the type of relationship that he deserves, with a loving, thoughtful wife who prioritizes him and is dedicated to his happiness and their family and hope that he can find respect for himself as someone who is gracious at heart, offering me the chance to demonstrate change, and feel his grace was rewarded by that change. He has said at this point that he feels I am consistently doing everything possible to help him heal and us progress through R, and has acknowledged that something needs to happen within him to reach the next stage in healing. But he doesn't know what that is or how to reach it. He feels like he knows what he "should" have done two years ago, but can't align that with our current situation. As much as I try to empathize and understand the pain and conflict I have created in him, I cannot truly grasp that dichotomy.
> 
> Regarding the little I know of your current R - there are a couple of concerns in your wife's behavior for me, primarily because I could not imagine holding those views/positions against someone I have so grievously wronged.
> 
> 1. Advocating against exposure. - That's simply self-preservation and continued selfishness, IMO. I wanted Matt to have all the support necessary in the time following D-Day. He was horrifically hurt, and needed and deserved the love and care of friends and family. Was it shameful for me? Of course, but that's my cost for the choices I made. Matt and you do not deserve continued loneliness and isolation as you face the most difficult time in your life.
> 
> 2. Suggesting that she will tell on you in turn about your "physical" interactions. - More selfishness and an attempt to minimize her own wrongdoings by shifting attention onto your reaction toward it. Our interactions after D-Days were terrible. Matt reacted in ways neither of us knew he was capable of. That is all I will say about that. It was MY actions and MY choices that brought that response from him, and he is not guilty for being victimized and traumatized by me and his subsequent actions in the wake of that trauma. I would never attempt to blame him for any choices post D-Day.
> 
> 3. Suggesting that your inability to "get over it" is what is preventing your relationship from moving forward. - You will never "get over it". I am nauseated that she would even consider that a possibility. I am dumbfounded that she thinks she will ever "get over it". While she may think she understands the affair and doesn't need IC/MC, this is a clear sign to me that she does not and/or is not truly remorseful, simply regretful of the fallout she faces and is trying to patch it over. I will spend every day of the rest of my life supporting Matt, helping him when he struggles. That is HOW our relationship goes forward. Eventually those struggles lessen, and hopefully our future will be a net positive - that is what we are working towards. YOU are not an obstacle. Her choice to have an affair is. It is HER job to do everything possible to help carry you through that obstacle SHE created, not complain that you haven't surmounted it after such a short time.
> 
> 4. Pleading for forgiveness. - While I have hope that someday Matt will reach a point where he can consider forgiving me, I cannot imagine ever asking him to do that. I can't picture any level of atonement that would ever make me feel like I have earned the right to be forgiven for creating such destruction in him. I would never even broach such a topic with him.
> 
> I am truly sorry to point these things out, but to me, they reflect someone who is trying to help herself feel better, rather than help YOU feel better. She may not even realize that herself - she may see these things as necessary improvements for your "relationship" and therefore, the things that will help you. But at the root, they are not about that. My first and only priority after finally getting my head on straight is to help Matt. I would like to renew our relationship. But I will not put that above rebuilding Matt. If there is to be a relationship that we can both feel happy and fulfilled in, it has to come AFTER his personal well being.
> 
> I wish you the very best, and admire your dedication to your family and your values. I know they cannot soothe your personal pain, but I have tremendous respect for the efforts that you have been willing to make to attempt to preserve those.


WOW, good post Mrs Mathias.
Thanks for posting


----------



## RV9

Mrs Mathias, you are a good person now. Truly wishing that your marriage not only survives but thrives.


----------



## NoChoice

RS, after reading MRs. Mathias' post, what more could we possibly add......

Thank you Mrs. Mathias


----------



## warlock07

RS, somethings posted here might be far too negative at once. You might not need somethings posted here. 

But it is upto you decide on what you from her. There is a difference between 

deciding that you don't need to know anything further than a certain point and 

pretending like you don't need to know anything more because you don't have that option anyway.


get some finite goals and work towards them. You will know if you are healing or no, even if you still keep having bad times.

Read poster "slater" older threads if you can. His wife was much worse than yours. Both the length of the affair and the R part. He decided that he will divorce once the kids are in college.


----------



## ConanHub

Damn straight Mrs. Mathias!

Very valuable insight! Coming from you, it weighs more, even if others have said likewise.

A level of respect has been earned Mrs. M.

Maybe not worth much on an anonymous forum but it means much to this barbarian.

It takes a lot to earn my respect. 

I like a lot of people. I respect few.


----------



## larry.gray

LongWalk said:


> A married woman with a job and children does not have a lot of disposible time. She had to look her calender book and plan their rendezvous about windows of opportunity. It must have been tricky.


It depends a whole lot on the nature of the job. Some jobs have strict attendance, some don't. I have an incredible amount of autonomy in my job. I spend about 25% of my time in meetings. As long as I make those, nobody cares where I am. I don't have somebody tracking where I spend my time, and I visit both vendors and customers. A simple cover story can net me many hours if I wanted to.


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## LongWalk

Good point, Larry.

Could be that RS's wife and OM had much more time together than RS's can get his head around. Having that possibility in the light of day could kill their marriage. After all he has thought in terms of this day and that day. Could have been days in a row.

Another example of why the trickle truth phenomenon reoccurs in so many R's.


----------



## ThePheonix

Long, I don't understand the relevance of the amount of time they spent together. Taking RS's recounting of the events at face value, his wife apparently replaced all desire for him with what she felt for the other guy. My understanding is she took RS's attempts at intimacy and sex as pestering. Beyond that, I don't see why the number of her liaisons with this cat matters. 
At this point its kind of like arguing whether the train that hit your vehicle had 25 box cars or 100 box cars.


----------



## LongWalk

Pheonix,

I agree that it can be that way. Can also matter.

Why would lying one day be worse than on another day, dunno. But it could be that way.

What does RS need to heal in a healthy R. That is the question.

What does his wife need?

A betrayed spouse needs a lot to make it in R. But R cannot be entirely a one way flow of the WS meeting the BS's emotional needs. Eventually, the WS will not make it. Mrs Mathias has a handle on this. She doesn't go asking Matt for much. She takes his staying in the relationship as enough for her. But if he started pressing her to go over details again now, what would be the point?

When is what happened already analyzed enough?

RS thought he could get by. The restoration of intimacy helped a lot but now they are stuck.


----------



## Nucking Futs

LongWalk said:


> Pheonix,
> 
> I agree that it can be that way. Can also matter.
> 
> Why would lying one day be worse than on another day, dunno. But it could be that way.
> 
> What does RS need to heal in a healthy R. That is the question.
> 
> What does his wife need?
> 
> A betrayed spouse needs a lot to make it in R. But R cannot be entirely a one way flow of the WS meeting the BS's emotional needs. Eventually, the WS will not make it. Mrs Mathias has a handle on this. She doesn't go asking Matt for much. She takes his staying in the relationship as enough for her. But if he started pressing her to go over details *again* now, what would be the point?
> 
> When is what happened already analyzed enough?
> 
> RS thought he could get by. The restoration of intimacy helped a lot but now they are stuck.


Note the word I bolded. There's a huge difference between getting the details for the first time and going over them repeatedly. That difference is a large part of the difference between R and false R.


----------



## LongWalk

When RS was moving forwards in R without the timeline, I wrote in support of him because he deserved that. Now that he is struggling with the same issue, he deserves support on that front as well.

The best way forward would be for RS's wife to understand the situation the way Mrs Mathias does. JustGrinding went through the calendar so that he reconstructed the affair to an irrefutable document. Now I think he knows that OM has even married. His WW doesn't know this. JustGrinding is like an iron bear trap that will not let go.

From what JustGrinding write about his WW, I wonder if she would get it if he would just steer her the right direction. She wants the release of remorse but she doesn't say or do the right things, perhpas out of fear of rejection.

Is RS like JustGrinding? I don't think so. Mrs Mathias is very intellectual and analytical. She is capable of introspection and considered judgment. At one time in the heat of the affair, she believed she could love two men at the same time and be good to both of them. Later she realized that this was self deception. Furthermore, the student she who was the object of her infatuation turned out to be in part a creature of her imagination.

Matt even painted a painting based on a work by the OM. Talk about painful. Mrs Mathias only has to look at that to try harder. I hope they make it and not just make but find themselves in a good place.

Suppose RS's wife and OM sexted or took photos of themselves in the coital afterglow or over drinks. Should she dig them up and show them to him?


----------



## Hicks

WWJD ?
That's a terrible manipulation. It's blaming you for being ungodly.

If you or anyone have a direct line to God or Jesus, then you probably would not be posting on this board.

Here on earth, forgiveness follows remorse.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Hicks said:


> WWJD ?
> That's a terrible manipulation. It's blaming you for being ungodly.
> 
> If you or anyone have a direct line to God or Jesus, then you probably would not be posting on this board.
> 
> Here on earth, forgiveness follows remorse.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: No sex after her affair...*



Hicks said:


> WWJD ?
> That's a terrible manipulation. It's blaming you for being ungodly.
> 
> If you or anyone have a direct line to God or Jesus, then you probably would not be posting on this board.
> 
> Here on earth, forgiveness follows remorse.


This needs to be posted again!


----------



## LongWalk

The faith aspect is very important. If RS is a believer and his wife agnostic or atheistic, then it could damage R, especially if she is sees it as a weakness in him.


----------



## ThePheonix

LongWalk said:


> The faith aspect is very important. If RS is a believer and his wife agnostic or atheistic, then it could damage R, *especially if she is sees it as a weakness in him.*


Any man that would put up with that kind of horse sh-t from a woman gives new meaning to the word "chump". They would be history at the first sign of that crap. Anytime my wife sees a weakness in me that would "damage our relationship" ( not in or ever will be in a R) she can hit the road and I'll give her gas money. Like the fur trapper said before the blizzard moved in , "ain't no beaver worth being that big of a fool over".


----------



## jim123

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I am breaking my self-imposed TAM ban since Matt and I have been mentioned several times in this thread.
> 
> RS, I am so sorry for what you are going through. You're right, there is no magic bullet. Matt and I are nearing our 2 year D-Day anniversary, and while most days things are ok, there is still a lot of pain and we are both aware of the significant damage to ourselves and our relationship. The "average" recovery is 2-5 years. Some, like B1 and EI are able to progress faster, but for us it is a slower road - completely due to the False R that I put Matt through.
> 
> Matt did not expose after D-Day 1, and did immediately after D-Day 2. It was good for me to help reintroduce reality and consequences. I would never have dreamed of asking him not to do that, even at my "foggiest". As a matter of fact, I even messaged the person who brought about D-Day 2 and thanked her for looking out for Matt's best interests. Exposure to my parents involved a conference call where Matt requested that I detail the affair, including the sexual acts to them. I did not hesitate, nor did I attempt to minimize at that point. *I could fully confess what I did because I believed it had already cost me everything, and there was nothing to try to "save" anymore.* I did not speak to his family at that point - I attempted to call his mother to apologize, but she did not answer and I left a voicemail. I did follow up with them in person, each privately, when I was allowed to attend Christmas after the affair, and apologized individually for the hurt I'd caused Matt and them, as well as telling them that I would do whatever Matt decided was best and necessary for his healing.
> 
> I can't say for certain, because I am not your wife, but if she believes the details will be what cause you to end the relationship, I believe she will withhold them from you until you show her the relationship is ended without them. I would advise you to think very seriously about what level of detail you need to feel she is being honest, transparent, and loyal to your needs vs. what will be detrimental to your own state of mind and healing from the affair. Matt wanted very detailed, specific descriptions about my encounters with OM and I answered completely. But it can be very difficult once that knowledge is in your head to lay it to rest. I can also say that I am not good with dates - even right after D-Day, other than 2 specific times that were related to unusual events/locations, the most date info I could provide was last week of September, middle of October type dates. But I could and did give that info to him.
> 
> Matt is by nature a very analytical, thoughtful individual. His struggles are similar to yours - he is in a relationship with me, engaged with our children, but often faces that inner voice that says "How can you stay with someone who did this to you?" "What kind of man would accept that?" Honestly, I do not know what can help offer Matt a sense of self-respect and esteem without divorcing me and ending the relationship. But at the same time, he has said that he doesn't think he will be better off if we split. So that's an enduring conflict in him. All I can do each day is try to build the type of relationship that he deserves, with a loving, thoughtful wife who prioritizes him and is dedicated to his happiness and their family and hope that he can find respect for himself as someone who is gracious at heart, offering me the chance to demonstrate change, and feel his grace was rewarded by that change. He has said at this point that he feels I am consistently doing everything possible to help him heal and us progress through R, and has acknowledged that something needs to happen within him to reach the next stage in healing. But he doesn't know what that is or how to reach it. He feels like he knows what he "should" have done two years ago, but can't align that with our current situation. As much as I try to empathize and understand the pain and conflict I have created in him, I cannot truly grasp that dichotomy.
> 
> Regarding the little I know of your current R - there are a couple of concerns in your wife's behavior for me, primarily because I could not imagine holding those views/positions against someone I have so grievously wronged.
> 
> 1. Advocating against exposure. - That's simply self-preservation and continued selfishness, IMO. I wanted Matt to have all the support necessary in the time following D-Day. He was horrifically hurt, and needed and deserved the love and care of friends and family. Was it shameful for me? Of course, but that's my cost for the choices I made. Matt and you do not deserve continued loneliness and isolation as you face the most difficult time in your life.
> 
> 2. Suggesting that she will tell on you in turn about your "physical" interactions. - More selfishness and an attempt to minimize her own wrongdoings by shifting attention onto your reaction toward it. Our interactions after D-Days were terrible. Matt reacted in ways neither of us knew he was capable of. That is all I will say about that. It was MY actions and MY choices that brought that response from him, and he is not guilty for being victimized and traumatized by me and his subsequent actions in the wake of that trauma. I would never attempt to blame him for any choices post D-Day.
> 
> 3. Suggesting that your inability to "get over it" is what is preventing your relationship from moving forward. - You will never "get over it". I am nauseated that she would even consider that a possibility. I am dumbfounded that she thinks she will ever "get over it". While she may think she understands the affair and doesn't need IC/MC, this is a clear sign to me that she does not and/or is not truly remorseful, simply regretful of the fallout she faces and is trying to patch it over. I will spend every day of the rest of my life supporting Matt, helping him when he struggles. That is HOW our relationship goes forward. Eventually those struggles lessen, and hopefully our future will be a net positive - that is what we are working towards. YOU are not an obstacle. Her choice to have an affair is. It is HER job to do everything possible to help carry you through that obstacle SHE created, not complain that you haven't surmounted it after such a short time.
> 
> 4. Pleading for forgiveness. - While I have hope that someday Matt will reach a point where he can consider forgiving me, I cannot imagine ever asking him to do that. I can't picture any level of atonement that would ever make me feel like I have earned the right to be forgiven for creating such destruction in him. I would never even broach such a topic with him.
> 
> I am truly sorry to point these things out, but to me, they reflect someone who is trying to help herself feel better, rather than help YOU feel better. She may not even realize that herself - she may see these things as necessary improvements for your "relationship" and therefore, the things that will help you. But at the root, they are not about that. My first and only priority after finally getting my head on straight is to help Matt. I would like to renew our relationship. But I will not put that above rebuilding Matt. If there is to be a relationship that we can both feel happy and fulfilled in, it has to come AFTER his personal well being.
> 
> I wish you the very best, and admire your dedication to your family and your values. I know they cannot soothe your personal pain, but I have tremendous respect for the efforts that you have been willing to make to attempt to preserve those.


I can only hope that people on this board start to show you the respect, empathy and compassion that you show others.

I also hope that you and Matt complete your R as you both have worked so hard.

I have never seen someone grow as a person more than you have. I wish you the best because you deserve it and so does Matt.


----------



## LongWalk

My gut feeling is that Tears and Un_Amore_Perdito, who have shown total remorse for very limited affairs, Tears was a one afternoon stand, have succeeded with R.

The price was two years of divorce for Tears and her husband. A few months separation for UAP. If they had failed, they would probably come back to share their pain. Since R is difficult they don't want to risk jinxing it by sharing too much on TAM.

They both confessed of their own accord.

RS's WW had a moment of truth. She saw that he was a good man and tha she did not want to lose him because she knew his moral character redeemed her. However, in her intitial plea for R she did not express sexual desire for him. Of course that might have looked terrible to him.

The sexless false R was understandably a huge issue for RS. She poured sex and affection in and this got them through the initial stage of R. He also honestly reports that her level of passion has gone up from move-hips-to-get-hubby-back to banging-for-orgasm helps-us-both-forget and perhaps on to I-need-him-this-makes-us-one-again.

In truth there are many nuance levels of communication in sex. There is both honesty and dishonesty.

At the end of the day, sex alone has not eliminated RS's questions about the meaning of RS's marriage. Clearly his last posts suggest that he needs more.

WW has needs, too.


----------



## azteca1986

Road Scholar said:


> She says that she cannot even remember dates/times etc. - but this has been the case since the start. So I guess it is BS. It's like she wasn't there or something. For me certain dates are engrained in my mind forever 2/28, 4/29, 5/1, 7/18, 7/19, 8/9, 9/18, etc. *Is that possible or she simply stonewalling because I have allowed it? * Any previous experience with that?


Obviously.

You do not even know when the affair started. You make silly excuses for her - "It's like she wasn't there or something". She was there. She was an active participant. She might not be able to say 15:32:45 on 5th January we started the affair, but she knows roughly - two weeks before x, or during the y conference.

You demanded honesty from her. You didn't get it. She's stonewalling because you allow it. This is not strength or integrity on your part, RS. 

Now what? Do we now all pretend that lack of honesty in a marriage is kinda okay?


----------



## drifting on

Road Scholar

Let me start by telling you I believe in reconciliation. Divorce in my situation was not in my best interest, and WW I think knew this. However, even though my WW knew divorce would cost me more, she will move mountains. I'm not getting that from your WW in your posts. My WW lied for five months of MC, your WW withheld sex from you to stay true to OM. Both are a kick in the crotch but I believe yours is worse. Your WW should be willing to answer any and all questions of her affair. You asked for a timeline and yet nothing. When I read the thread of mrs mathias I found that she was similar to my WW. I was going about it all wrong. I had to make her feel safe, after there was nothing left to save. I told my WW there is just no getting past her affair without me knowing everything. I finally got my confession. 

Your wife is holding out because she feels she can still save the marriage. Once that isn't an option she will change her plan of attack. It just may be the timeline or confession you need to R. Of course your WW would say she wasn't withholding sex from you, she has no other answer. Your WW is trying to prevent you from seeing just how broken she really is. Probably because she knows when you discover how broken she is you will be gone. Even your WW doesn't want to look in the mirror and see just how broken she is. But yet you want a timeline and she doesn't want you to have it. In my opinion you need to ask for the timeline, give a date to have it completed, and on that date have divorce papers in your hand. She knows she can not give one and nothing will happen. Change that. Make it happen. 

I really feel for you, I have a family also and they are the world to me. Losing that would destroy me completely, and yet risking everything got me what I needed. Would she accept this from you if the roles were reversed? Why does she not want to help you heal when she is the only one that can? Perhaps this affair is far worse than you know. I hope I'm wrong and that you know just how bad it is, but not providing a timeline means she's hiding more.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LongWalk

One thing that you might include in a request from her is information on clothing. What did she wear when she started thinking of attracting OM? Which outfits? What bra and panties?

Also, on the psychological level what did she discover about OM and find alluring? What did she invent or emphasize about herself to engage OM?

Which colleagues knew or suspected? How did she and OM deal with this?

What did OM say about his wife? What did she say about you?


----------



## Thor

There are two reasons for the timeline. 

One is to become fully informed so as to know what is being forgiven. There may be unforgivable things, and the BS wants to know if those things happened in order to decide whether to R or D. I believe many WS are worried about this, and thus the trickle truth. More commonly, though, I think the BS needs to believe they fully understand what happened before they can start to heal. The BS wonders what other betrayals might be out there, and can't start healing until that uncertainty is killed.

Some BS, though, don't need all the details. Perhaps RS is in this camp. He has constructed a timeline on his own, and believes he understands the general landscape of his WW's betrayal. For him it may be enough data, and thus he doesn't need more data from her in the way of a timeline.

I think this is how he is thinking. From his posts he says he has constructed the timeline (meticulously) and knows what he needs to know.

But I think this is where many of us disconnect from him. We see that WW's refusal to provide a timeline is a continuation of the betrayal because she is still protecting herself, and possibly protecting her AP, rather than putting the marriage and RS on a higher level. This is the second and most important reason most BS need the timeline. It is a demonstration of the WS's genuine remorse and genuine commitment to the BS.

RS does not seem to process the A and the R in those terms. He seems to process it as facts and events in the affair, which once understood can and should be put in the past. We're not going to convince him of the need for her to provide a timeline.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Thor said:


> But I think this is where many of us disconnect from him. *We see that WW's refusal to provide a timeline is a continuation of the betrayal because she is still protecting herself, and possibly protecting her AP, rather than putting the marriage and RS on a higher level.* This is the second and most important reason most BS need the timeline. It is a demonstration of the WS's genuine remorse and genuine commitment to the BS.
> 
> RS does not seem to process the A and the R in those terms. He seems to process it as facts and events in the affair, which once understood can and should be put in the past. We're not going to convince him of the need for her to provide a timeline.


This is exactly how I see it. The betrayal has never stopped. If the WS continues to protect the AP, whether NC or not, the A has not ended.


----------



## carmen ohio

*Posts by the OP: 120. Posts by responders: 1434*

What is it about this thread that leads to such strong interest in and causes such strong criticism of the OP?

Like many here, I believe that Road Scholar let his fWW off the hook too easily by not demanding that she produce the time line she promised him. I warned him that this could have long term, negative consequences, as not getting all of the facts about what she did would nag at him for a long time if not forever.

But Road Scholar reports that he and his fWW are both trying very hard to overcome her infidelity and that they are doing well. Yes, he admits that he still feels pain and has doubts, but this is only to be expected (it's been just over a year since his DDay2) and the gist of his messages is that he is happy with his decision and hopeful for the future.

Why do people have such a hard time accepting this? It seems like it's almost become a point of honor for some responders to prove that he is a fool for taking the course he has chosen instead of doing what they've advised him to do.

Road Scholar is clearly no fool. Moreover, I find it hard to criticize a man who puts his children's interests first, as Road Scholar has done. True, things may not work out the way he wants them to, but that can be said of all of us.

I am rooting for Road Scholar, his family, his marriage and even his fWW.


----------



## LongWalk

If someone has an operation to remove cancer, the surgeon can only cut out tumors. Single cancer cells that cannot be seen must be poisoned or irradiated.

Is hysterical bonding like chemo to kill off the affairs neural pathways?

Is exposure similar to radiation?

I think RS will know what to do based on his wife's behavior in the here, now and future. The day that she acts selfishly in some way that eats at him, he will divorce her.

If she is permanently more self critical, they can make it.


----------



## sidney2718

Nucking Futs said:


> This is exactly how I see it. The betrayal has never stopped. If the WS continues to protect the AP, whether NC or not, the A has not ended.


You may be right. But a fair number of WW's here have said that they did NOT reveal everything because they knew that if they did so, the marriage was over. So they chose the partial truth path figuring that if it still led to divorce they lost nothing and if it didn't, they were ahead in the reconciliation game.

I do feel that the BH is entitled to the information. It is a chance that the WW will just have to take. I would have insisted upon it from the start.


----------



## sidney2718

carmen ohio said:


> *Posts by the OP: 120. Posts by responders: 1434*
> 
> What is it about this thread that leads to such strong interest in and causes such strong criticism of the OP?
> 
> Like many here, I believe that Road Scholar let his fWW off the hook too easily by not demanding that she produce the time line she promised him. I warned him that this could have long term, negative consequences, as not getting all of the facts about what she did would nag at him for a long time if not forever.
> 
> But Road Scholar reports that he and his fWW are both trying very hard to overcome her infidelity and that they are doing well. Yes, he admits that he still feels pain and has doubts, but this is only to be expected (it's been just over a year since his DDay2) and the gist of his messages is that he is happy with his decision and hopeful for the future.
> 
> Why do people have such a hard time accepting this? It seems like it's almost become a point of honor for some responders to prove that he is a fool for taking the course he has chosen instead of doing what they've advised him to do.
> 
> Road Scholar is clearly no fool. Moreover, I find it hard to criticize a man who puts his children's interests first, as Road Scholar has done. True, things may not work out the way he wants them to, but that can be said of all of us.
> 
> I am rooting for Road Scholar, his family, his marriage and even his fWW.


To answer your question I think it is because there are a number of folks here who have still not come to terms with the breakup of their marriage. Or perhaps they regret not having attempted reconciliation and don't want to look weak by admitting it.

But it is a problem. It scares folks away from TAM, especially women. There is one thread I read recently in which he cheated on her and then she cheated on him. The H posted asking what to do. A fair number here said that he should divorce her fast. 

Most folks lurk here before posting. I think that many are scared off.


----------



## carmen ohio

sidney2718 said:


> To answer your question I think it is because there are a number of folks here who have still not come to terms with the breakup of their marriage. Or perhaps they regret not having attempted reconciliation and don't want to look weak by admitting it.
> 
> But it is a problem. It scares folks away from TAM, especially women. There is one thread I read recently in which he cheated on her and then she cheated on him. The H posted asking what to do. A fair number here said that he should divorce her fast.
> 
> Most folks lurk here before posting. I think that many are scared off.


It doesn't bother me that some folks take anti-reconciliation positions as much as it does that certain responders essentially hijack threads by devoting more energy to arguing with each other than trying to help the OP. If people mostly directed their comments to the OP and then let him or her decide which advice to take, I think TAM/CWI would be a much better resource.

Unfortunately, some of the worst offenders are veterans who otherwise add a lot of value. IMO, the moderators should issue more warnings and time-outs when this happens.

But this thread is somewhat different. What seems to have gotten a lot of responders' noses out of joint is the Road Scholar's decision not to insist that his fWW produce a lime-line of her affair. Like I said earlier, I agree that this was a mistake but, at the end of the day, the decision was his to make. A number of responders seem almost to want his marriage to fail in order to prove that they were right and he was wrong. I find that rather disappointing.


----------



## lordmayhem

carmen ohio said:


> But this thread is somewhat different. What seems to have gotten a lot of responders' noses out of joint is the Road Scholar's decision not to insist that his fWW produce a lime-line of her affair. Like I said earlier, I agree that this was a mistake but, at the end of the day, the decision was his to make. A number of responders seem almost to want his marriage to fail in order to prove that they were right and he was wrong. I find that rather disappointing.


I don't really care all that much if Road Scholar gets his timeline or not, I think its a mistake, but its his mistake to make. I don't really have any emotional investment in his situation, whether he succeeds in R or Ds. 

Even at this time of the night/day, there are around 386 people viewing this particular forum, during the daytime in the US, almost 1,000 are viewing the forum. That means there's almost a thousand people reading, lurking, or posting here. 

There are always more people that need help, because infidelity is constant. If they don't post, I could care less, because there will always be those who will have the courage to post their story. And if a poster doesn't want to follow the advice of those who have been in his/her shoes, so what? There's always someone else who can use the help.

Nothing more to see here.


----------



## LongWalk

> It doesn't bother me that some folks take anti-reconciliation positions as much as it does that certain responders essentially hijack threads by devoting more energy to arguing with each other than trying to help the OP. If people mostly directed their comments to the OP and then let him or her decide which advice to take, I think TAM/CWI would be a much better resource.
> 
> Unfortunately, some of the worst offenders are veterans who otherwise add a lot of value. IMO, the moderators should issue more warnings and time-outs when this happens.


I think folks should speak up and support the right to free speech. If a wayward pops up and tries to explain their point of view, it is okay to criticise them. But if everybody condemns them as a waste of space, they will leave.

Folks should recognize that that good people can do bad, selfish things. Bad people can be the victims but we do not know how bad they are. After all BS don't confess everything about themselves.

For example – and this has nothing to do with RS and his wife – a man or woman could for years put down and undermine their spouse's self confidence, self worth, etc. They could be the ultimate soul crushing bully. If this person who has been essentially mistreated cheats, this may not be a positive way to stand up for himself (or herself) but it may be the beginning of change. They may need to make this bad choice to gain insight into their situation.

The problem with cheating as the awakening is that it may not really give enough insight. The AP may be seen as the savior when they are not.


----------



## Road Scholar

azteca1986 said:


> Obviously.
> 
> You do not even know when the affair started. You make silly excuses for her - "It's like she wasn't there or something". She was there. She was an active participant. She might not be able to say 15:32:45 on 5th January we started the affair, but she knows roughly - two weeks before x, or during the y conference.
> 
> You demanded honesty from her. You didn't get it. She's stonewalling because you allow it. This is not strength or integrity on your part, RS.
> 
> Now what? Do we now all pretend that lack of honesty in a marriage is kinda okay?


I wanted to weigh in briefly, after having taken a time out to collect my thoughts about next steps and what I really wanted or needed.

I sincerely appreciate everyone that has posted here. It has given me much to think about and challenge myself with. 

Regarding the specific points above, clearly she was there and obviously I am aware of that fact. I'm not making excuses, simply comparing her inability or unwillingness to recall dates to someone not having been there at all. I know its BS. I'm simply drawing a parallel - not making an excuse. Probably a stupid point to clarify anyhow. 

Also I believe that I do know with a fair amount of certainty the date it started. 2/28/2013 in San Francisco at a work conference where she essentially arranged for him to be there. 

There were no phone records prior to that date but a heck of a lot after that date. Based on phone records, there were no calls after DDay 2. When I question certain things, that I know or feel reasonable confident I know it's because of the damage that has been done as a result of the false R and all the lies and deceit that took place. I don't trust what I know or think I know at times. I feel in many ways that has been more damaging than the physical betrayal. So there's the physical betrayal, the lies and deceit, and then of course in my case the fact that she no longer loved me and fell in love with someone else. They all go hand in hand. I also know there were things that led up to all of this flirtation, inuendos, sexual advances, etc. So I know that all started sometime before February probably Dec, Jan or even before. 

I know a lot of details that would have ended this for probably 90% of people out there. And it may still end it for me at some point. 

What keeps me hanging on is my desire to keep my family together, my belief that divorce is wrong and essentially a selfish thing to do that would pass my mistakes and failures on to my children and introduce that pain in their lives. I am holding on to the possibility that one day we can get through all this and make it out on the other side happier and healthier and stronger having fought through this destruction together. Allowing each other to heal and grow from this. It is an extremely difficult thing to do.

Sometimes I am able to step outside of the situation and take my emotion out of it for a minute and see it for what it was or is. It is pretty clear to me at this point that it was a failing marriage - for various reasons. I wasn't even fully aware of it at the time. At times we were both unhappy and unfulfilled, both felt unappreciated. Same story here, took each other for granted, weren't always nice to each other, were rude to each other at times, sometimes treated each other with contempt, etc. It's not uncommon. Most couples go through it in cycles I would bet and come out of it to a better cycle. Ups and downs. Call it whatever you want. At the end of the day it wasn't what either one of us really wanted or really wanted to feel. So she left. She escaped to someone who made her feel special, sexy, important, appreciated. That's the sad part. We could have fixed things without that being brought to the party, now it's just another hurdle to overcome. But I take responsibility is contributing an unhealthy environment one that was ripe for an affair on either side.

The point is she f'd up and she knows it. She made a colossal mistake that she is fully aware could end our marriage and break up our family at any point forward. She has made a commitment to fixing what she screwed up and has been working at it for 14 months with me to create a better, kinder "US". She knows this is a gift and is scared that I will leave her when I have had it. She has told me this many times. We have argued about it, cried about it, prayed about it, bonded and battled. 

While not perfect, we're both trying to create better versions of ourselves and our marriage for us and our family. We're giving each other a chance as I see it.

This article I read last night reminded me that things were not perfect in our marriage and is a reminder of why many fail. Ours may still, because this still hurts and I don't know how she was able to do what she did, but for now we are trying to treat each other well and be happy and help each other heal...in short we are trying to be nice to each other.

2 weeks ago we went for a 2 hour walk after work and she answered nearly every question I had. I was on the verge and she knew it. There are still some gaps but she was honest and truthful, painfully so. When I need a dose of the truth I feel I will get it, but it's painful medicine to swallow.

Sorry for the book...best wishes and God's healing grace to all here. 

-RS

Every day in June, the most popular wedding month of the year, about 13,000 American couples will say “I do,” committing to a lifelong relationship that will be full of friendship, joy, and love that will carry them forward to their final days on this earth.
Except, of course, it doesn’t work out that way for most people.
The majority of marriages fail, either ending in divorce and separation or devolving into bitterness and dysfunction.
Of all the people who get married, only three in ten remain in healthy, happy marriages, as psychologist Ty Tashiro points out in his book "The Science of Happily Ever After," which was published earlier this year.
Social scientists first started studying marriages by observing them in action in the 1970s in response to a crisis: Married couples were divorcing at unprecedented rates. Worried about the impact these divorces would have on the children of the broken marriages, psychologists decided to cast their scientific net on couples, bringing them into the lab to observe them and determine what the ingredients of a healthy, lasting relationship were.
Was each unhappy family unhappy in its own way, as Tolstoy claimed, or did the miserable marriages all share something toxic in common?
Psychologist John Gottman was one of those researchers. For the past four decades, he has studied thousands of couples in a quest to figure out what makes relationships work. I recently had the chance to interview Gottman and his wife Julie, also a psychologist, in New York City. Together, the renowned experts on marital stability run The Gottman Institute, which is devoted to helping couples build and maintain loving, healthy relationships based on scientific studies.
John Gottman began gathering his most critical findings in 1986, when he set up “The Love Lab” with his colleague Robert Levenson at the University of Washington. Gottman and Levenson brought newlyweds into the lab and watched them interact with each other. 
With a team of researchers, they hooked the couples up to electrodes and asked the couples to speak about their relationship, like how they met, a major conflict they were facing together, and a positive memory they had. As they spoke, the electrodes measured the subjects' blood flow, heart rates, and how much they sweat they produced. Then the researchers sent the couples home and followed up with them six years later to see if they were still together.
From the data they gathered, Gottman separated the couples into two major groups: the masters and the disasters. The masters were still happily together after six years. The disasters had either broken up or were chronically unhappy in their marriages. 
When the researchers analyzed the data they gathered on the couples, they saw clear differences between the masters and disasters. The disasters looked calm during the interviews, but their physiology, measured by the electrodes, told a different story. Their heart rates were quick, their sweat glands were active, and their blood flow was fast. Following thousands of couples longitudinally, Gottman found that the more physiologically active the couples were in the lab, the quicker their relationships deteriorated over time.
But what does physiology have to do with anything? The problem was that the disasters showed all the signs of arousal — of being in fight-or-flight mode — in their relationships. Having a conversation sitting next to their spouse was, to their bodies, like facing off with a saber-toothed tiger. 
Even when they were talking about pleasant or mundane facets of their relationships, they were prepared to attack and be attacked. This sent their heart rates soaring and made them more aggressive toward each other. For example, each member of a couple could be talking about how their days had gone, and a highly aroused husband might say to his wife, “Why don’t you start talking about your day. It won’t take you very long.”
Flickr/Marg 
The masters, by contrast, showed low physiological arousal. They felt calm and connected together, which translated into warm and affectionate behavior, even when they fought. It’s not that the masters had, by default, a better physiological make-up than the disasters; it’s that masters had created a climate of trust and intimacy that made both of them more emotionally and thus physically comfortable.
Gottman wanted to know more about how the masters created that culture of love and intimacy, and how the disasters squashed it. In a follow-up study in 1990, he designed a lab on the University of Washington campus to look like a beautiful bed and breakfast retreat.
He invited 130 newlywed couples to spend the day at this retreat and watched them as they did what couples normally do on vacation: cook, clean, listen to music, eat, chat, and hang out. And Gottman made a critical discovery in this study — one that gets at the heart of why some relationships thrive while others languish.
Throughout the day, partners would make requests for connection, what Gottman calls “bids.” For example, say that the husband is a bird enthusiast and notices a goldfinch fly across the yard. He might say to his wife, “Look at that beautiful bird outside!” He’s not just commenting on the bird here: he’s requesting a response from his wife — a sign of interest or support — hoping they’ll connect, however momentarily, over the bird.
The wife now has a choice. She can respond by either “turning toward” or “turning away” from her husband, as Gottman puts it. Though the bird-bid might seem minor and silly, it can actually reveal a lot about the health of the relationship. The husband thought the bird was important enough to bring it up in conversation and the question is whether his wife recognizes and respects that.
People who turned toward their partners in the study responded by engaging the bidder, showing interest and support in the bid. Those who didn’t — those who turned away — would not respond or respond minimally and continue doing whatever they were doing, like watching TV or reading the paper. Sometimes they would respond with overt hostility, saying something like, “Stop interrupting me, I’m reading.”
These bidding interactions had profound effects on marital well-being. Couples who had divorced after a six-year follow up had “turn-toward bids” 33 percent of the time. Only three in ten of their bids for emotional connection were met with intimacy. The couples who were still together after six years had “turn-toward bids” 87 percent of the time. Nine times out of ten, they were meeting their partner’s emotional needs.
Flickr/Scarleth Marie 
By observing these types of interactions, Gottman can predict with up to 94 percent certainty whether couples — straight or gay, rich or poor, childless or not — will be broken up, together and unhappy, or together and happy several years later. Much of it comes down to the spirit couples bring to the relationship. Do they bring kindness and generosity; or contempt, criticism, and hostility? 
“There’s a habit of mind that the masters have,” Gottman explained in an interview, “which is this: they are scanning social environment for things they can appreciate and say thank you for. They are building this culture of respect and appreciation very purposefully. Disasters are scanning the social environment for partners’ mistakes.”
“It’s not just scanning environment,” chimed in Julie Gottman. “It’s scanning the partner for what the partner is doing right or scanning him for what he’s doing wrong and criticizing versus respecting him and expressing appreciation.”
Contempt, they have found, is the number one factor that tears couples apart. People who are focused on criticizing their partners miss a whopping 50 percent of positive things their partners are doing and they see negativity when it’s not there. 
People who give their partner the cold shoulder — deliberately ignoring the partner or responding minimally — damage the relationship by making their partner feel worthless and invisible, as if they’re not there, not valued. And people who treat their partners with contempt and criticize them not only kill the love in the relationship, but they also kill their partner's ability to fight off viruses and cancers. Being mean is the death knell of relationships.
Kindness, on the other hand, glues couples together. Research independent from theirs has shown that kindness (along with emotional stability) is the most important predictor of satisfaction and stability in a marriage. Kindness makes each partner feel cared for, understood, and validated—feel loved. “My bounty is as boundless as the sea,” says Shakespeare’s Juliet. “My love as deep; the more I give to thee, / The more I have, for both are infinite.” That’s how kindness works too: there’s a great deal of evidence showing the more someone receives or witnesses kindness, the more they will be kind themselves, which leads to upward spirals of love and generosity in a relationship.
There are two ways to think about kindness. You can think about it as a fixed trait: either you have it or you don’t. Or you could think of kindness as a muscle. In some people, that muscle is naturally stronger than in others, but it can grow stronger in everyone with exercise. Masters tend to think about kindness as a muscle. They know that they have to exercise it to keep it in shape. They know, in other words, that a good relationship requires sustained hard work.
“If your partner expresses a need,” explained Julie Gottman, “and you are tired, stressed, or distracted, then the generous spirit comes in when a partner makes a bid, and you still turn toward your partner.”
In that moment, the easy response may be to turn away from your partner and focus on your iPad or your book or the television, to mumble “Uh huh” and move on with your life, but neglecting small moments of emotional connection will slowly wear away at your relationship. Neglect creates distance between partners and breeds resentment in the one who is being ignored.
The hardest time to practice kindness is, of course, during a fight—but this is also the most important time to be kind. Letting contempt and aggression spiral out of control during a conflict can inflict irrevocable damage on a relationship.
Flickr/Ian Livesey 
“Kindness doesn’t mean that we don’t express our anger,” Julie Gottman explained, “but the kindness informs how we choose to express the anger. You can throw spears at your partner. Or you can explain why you’re hurt and angry, and that’s the kinder path.” 
John Gottman elaborated on those spears: “Disasters will say things differently in a fight. Disasters will say ‘You’re late. What’s wrong with you? You’re just like your mom.’ Masters will say ‘I feel bad for picking on you about your lateness, and I know it’s not your fault, but it’s really annoying that you’re late again.’”
For the hundreds of thousands of couples getting married each June — and for the millions of couples currently together, married or not — the lesson from the research is clear: If you want to have a stable, healthy relationship, exercise kindness early and often.
When people think about practicing kindness, they often think about small acts of generosity, like buying each other little gifts or giving one another back rubs every now and then. While those are great examples of generosity, kindness can also be built into the very backbone of a relationship through the way partners interact with each other on a day-to-day basis, whether or not there are back rubs and chocolates involved.
One way to practice kindness is by being generous about your partner’s intentions. From the research of the Gottmans, we know that disasters see negativity in their relationship even when it is not there. An angry wife may assume, for example, that when her husband left the toilet seat up, he was deliberately trying to annoy her. But he may have just absent-mindedly forgotten to put the seat down.
Or say a wife is running late to dinner (again), and the husband assumes that she doesn’t value him enough to show up to their date on time after he took the trouble to make a reservation and leave work early so that they could spend a romantic evening together. But it turns out that the wife was running late because she stopped by a store to pick him up a gift for their special night out.
Imagine her joining him for dinner, excited to deliver her gift, only to realize that he’s in a sour mood because he misinterpreted what was motivating her behavior. The ability to interpret your partner’s actions and intentions charitably can soften the sharp edge of conflict.
“Even in relationships where people are frustrated, it’s almost always the case that there are positive things going on and people trying to do the right thing,” psychologist Ty Tashiro told me. “A lot of times, a partner is trying to do the right thing even if it’s executed poorly. So appreciate the intent.”
Another powerful kindness strategy revolves around shared joy. One of the telltale signs of the disaster couples Gottman studied was their inability to connect over each other’s good news. When one person in the relationship shared the good news of, say, a promotion at work with excitement, the other would respond with wooden disinterest by checking his watch or shutting the conversation down with a comment like, “That’s nice.”
We’ve all heard that partners should be there for each other when the going gets rough. But research shows that being there for each other when things go right is actually more important for relationship quality. How someone responds to a partner’s good news can have dramatic consequences for the relationship.
In one study from 2006, psychological researcher Shelly Gable and her colleagues brought young adult couples into the lab to discuss recent positive events from their lives. They psychologists wanted to know how partners would respond to each other’s good news. They found that, in general, couples responded to each other’s good news in four different ways that they called: passive destructive, active destructive, passive constructive, and active constructive.
Let’s say that one partner had recently received the excellent news that she got into medical school. She would say something like “I got into my top choice med school!”
If her partner responded in a passive destructive manner, he would ignore the event. For example, he might say something like: “You wouldn’t believe the great news I got yesterday! I won a free t-shirt!”
If her partner responded in a passive constructive way, he would acknowledge the good news, but in a half-hearted, understated way. A typical passive constructive response is saying “That’s great, babe” as he texts his buddy on his phone.
In the third kind of response, active destructive, the partner would diminish the good news his partner just got: “Are you sure you can handle all the studying? And what about the cost? Med school is so expensive!”
Finally, there’s active constructive responding. If her partner responded in this way, he stopped what he was doing and engaged wholeheartedly with her: “That’s great! Congratulations! When did you find out? Did they call you? What classes will you take first semester?”
Among the four response styles, active constructive responding is the kindest. While the other response styles are joy-killers, active constructive responding allows the partner to savor her joy and gives the couple an opportunity to bond over the good news. In the parlance of the Gottmans, active constructive responding is a way of “turning toward” your partners bid (sharing the good news) rather than “turning away” from it.
Active constructive responding is critical for healthy relationships. In the 2006 study, Gable and her colleagues followed up with the couples two months later to see if they were still together. The psychologists found that the only difference between the couples who were together and those who broke up was active constructive responding. Those who showed genuine interest in their partner’s joys were more likely to be together. In an earlier study, Gable found that active constructive responding was also associated with higher relationship quality and more intimacy between partners. 
There are many reasons why relationships fail, but if you look at what drives the deterioration of many relationships, it’s often a breakdown of kindness. As the normal stresses of a life together pile up—with children, career, friend, in-laws, and other distractions crowding out the time for romance and intimacy—couples may put less effort into their relationship and let the petty grievances they hold against one another tear them apart.
In most marriages, levels of satisfaction drop dramatically within the first few years together. But among couples who not only endure, but live happily together for years and years, the spirit of kindness and generosity guides them forward.


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## NoChoice

RS,
Please allow me to respond to your last post. Although I did not read the entire excerpt below it, I was taken by the words of your post and would like to respond. Picture, if you will, a large theater filled to capacity with people of all walks of life. You approach the podium at the front of the theater and say the words in your post. As you conclude there is deafening silence and then, one lone clap is heard...and then another and another until in a few moments the entire congregation is clapping in a ever building crescendo of applause, standing to their feet in appreciation.

That's my response.


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## MattMatt

Thanks. Hope it works out well for you all.


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## LongWalk

RS,

I get your point. You are now both paying attention to each other and expressing kindness far more than prior to the affair. You have through a very painful and hazardous process managed to reach a better place. You are constructing instead destructing.

Your wife's shift from being a selfish person to being a more giving is a major change for her. It represents real personal growth, something that is not so common or easy to come by.

Perhaps one day your wife will tell you that affair disgusts her more than she realized. The value of your family will make the pleasure and happiness with OM seem foolish and delusional. But as you note you to were ripe for an affair, although you did not go down that path. Your honestly is refreshing. It is easy for us to imagine being better than others. Some of minority of us may have characters of unimpeachable honor and fidelity but most of us are just ordinary.


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## hopefulgirl

Most of us who didn't do the cheating will never be able to understand how our spouses went to such a dark place and did what they did. For those of us in R, we usually assume they were pretty "broken" at the time or "not in their right mind" or something like that, so it's actually a good thing we can't enter that mindset - it's probably not a pleasant place to be. From what my husband describes, it was pretty messed up so maybe it's something a not very messed up person can't truly comprehend (and therefore, it's kind of a waste of time to try).

It is worthwhile, however, to take steps to learn how to keep a marriage healthy and for the individuals in a marriage to do whatever it takes for them to be healthy individuals. Some people can't forgive this, but some of us have decided we want to try. It's our choice. We believe the person that we married is better than the person that they turned into temporarily, and we don't want to judge their whole lives based on that period of time - we want to give them another chance, and we have hope as long as they are helping us heal and working on making a marriage filled with kindness and generosity like the Gottmans describe.


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## vellocet

sidney2718 said:


> But it is a problem. It scares folks away from TAM, especially women. There is one thread I read recently in which he cheated on her and then she cheated on him. The H posted asking what to do. A fair number here said that he should divorce her fast.


So what? That's one way to look at it. Another way is reconciliation. Some will have their opinions that reconciliation should be tried, some don't. Neither side is wrong, because they are just opinions. The poster ultimately has to decide for his/herself which way they want to go.


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## badmemory

RS,

Wouldn't it be wonderful if all CS's were perfect in their attempts to demonstrate remorse? That they said and did all the right things. 

But I wonder why, we should expect that from the same person that was capable of cheating in the first place. No one can be "perfectly" remorseful, because all cheaters are imperfect people. As are all non-cheaters.

If she won't come clean with every detail; that's an example of that imperfection. But in the grand scheme of things you have to account for how important that really is to you. If you already know 95% of what happened, should it be a deal breaker if she won't come up with the other 5%? How important is that detail compared with everything else she's doing? Only you can judge that.

I've got an example of that from my own WW. I know she had a WMW threesome with her OM. I read enough of his e-mail descriptions to be sure of it. Yet my wife refuses to admit to it. It's obvious she's so humiliated by that, that she can't. I know that because I know her well. She has otherwise since Dday, been a better wife than any other time in our 26 year marriage. 

Should I divorce her because she won't admit to something that wouldn't have been any worse than everything else she did? I could; but I already know the important truth; and I see how she treats me every day. 

I assume you do as well. Best of luck with a successful R.


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## hookares

Road Scholar, if she isn't bedding down with you, she's getting it elsewhere. When you didn't see to it she moved out, you prove to her she could do whatever she wants and you will foot the bill.
been there but at least I wasn't aware of it.


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## warlock07

badmemory said:


> RS,
> 
> Wouldn't it be wonderful if all CS's were perfect in their attempts to demonstrate remorse? That they said and did all the right things.
> 
> But I wonder why, we should expect that from the same person that was capable of cheating in the first place. No one can be "perfectly" remorseful, because all cheaters are imperfect people. As are all non-cheaters.
> 
> If she won't come clean with every detail; that's an example of that imperfection. But in the grand scheme of things you have to account for how important that really is to you. If you already know 95% of what happened, should it be a deal breaker if she won't come up with the other 5%? How important is that detail compared with everything else she's doing? Only you can judge that.
> 
> I've got an example of that from my own WW. I know she had a WMW threesome with her OM. I read enough of his e-mail descriptions to be sure of it. Yet my wife refuses to admit to it. It's obvious she's so humiliated by that, that she can't. I know that because I know her well. She has otherwise since Dday, been a better wife than any other time in our 26 year marriage.
> 
> Should I divorce her because she won't admit to something that wouldn't have been any worse than everything else she did? I could; but I already know the important truth; and I see how she treats me every day.
> 
> I assume you do as well. Best of luck with a successful R.



Weren't you on the fence about it being a fantasy talk?

Or do you think she is concerned that you would ask for one yourself?

Not sure on how you put a positive spin to it, but personally, I would find it humiliating if that was the case,


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## badmemory

warlock07 said:


> Weren't you on the fence about it being a fantasy talk?
> 
> Or do you think she is concerned that you would ask for one yourself?
> 
> Not sure on how you put a positive spin to it, but personally, I would find it humiliating if that was the case,


No I was never on the fence. I know what she did. I can read.

I guess it's at least possible she fears me asking her to do that with me to prove herself. I wouldn't of course. 

I'm not trying to put a positive spin on it Warlock. I know it's a negative - not the least reason being because it insults my intelligence. I'm just explaining that to divorce her over it; when she has otherwise been so demonstrably contrite; is something I've decided I'm not willing to do. That's why I can relate somewhat with RS.


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## LongWalk

This guy could use some advice from RS

His wife has been trying to R for two years.


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