# Distressed



## Berilo

I am at my wit’s end and need some help to assess what is going on in my marriage and what I should do about it. My wife’s behavior over the past three or four months has been very strange and erratic. She has a stressful professional job and works 10 hours a day, but she is successful at it, and I have seen no signs of any professional trauma. There are also no obvious other bad things happening in her life that I can see – no problems with friends or family.

We have been married for two years. She is 38 and I am 47, first marriage for her and second marriage for me. We don’t have any kids. Fortunately, we don’t have any major financial or health or family issues to deal with.

We used to get along wonderfully. She was so sweet and thoughtful and supportive. I tried to be the same. We were so into each other. We rarely fought, always made up. We had what I thought was a fulfilling sex life. 

Move forward a year, and although I don’t think I have changed, she sure has. I don’t recognize her any more: she is moody, not so affectionate, and gets angry at me for no apparent reason at all. For example, last week we were installing two new major appliances at home, the tags for which state should be installed by a professional for reasons of safety and warranty. She wanted to get out the tool box and install them ourselves. I said calmly that we should probably not do it ourselves but press the installer a little harder to come back next week. She blew up, calling me all kinds of names like slow and lazy and she hates people who don’t take initiative. Clearly she has some bigger issue here because I am anything but slow and lazy and lack initiative – but I do prefer to be methodical and do things properly. But this is an example of how I can’t seem to do anything right any more.

She says she can’t talk to me any more. When I say let’s sit down and talk now, or sleep together and talk tomorrow, or go away for the weekend somewhere quiet where we can talk, she dismisses this and tells me I “don’t know how to talk”. She then walks away coldly. I try to tell her that in “talking”, we both need to try to understand the other person’s perspective, whether we agree with it or not. She is always very judgmental of me and my situation. I don’t seem to be able to get a fair hearing.

There has been a double standard going on too for some time: she can come home from work very late without calling, but if I am an hour delayed because of a client call, she gets angry. She talks frequently on the phone during dinner without apology, but if I once a week need to send an urgent e-mail, she gets up from the table in a huff.

I think she is a bit of a control freak. We went away for a weekend to another city and spent much of it with some of her friends there. (They are nice people, so I don’t have any problem with that.) But when I want to have my friends over for dinner, she protests about the inconvenience. It’s like I only get one time a month to socialize. (She is very pleasant and charming when we do, but it sometimes seems like an act rather than a desire.)

Last night, she came home late, walked right by me (when I had my outstretched arms open for hug), took a shower and went to bed. She turned her back to me. I gave her a hug and asked what was wrong and she said “nothing”.

That’s when the light went on in my head. I connected the ugly recent dots. She has been very secretive with her cell phone and computer for the past few months. Two months ago, I observed a few too many calls with a certain male co-worker. When I commented on it, even half-jokingly saying I was a little “jealous”, she warmed up nervously -- and we had great sex that night. I checked the cell phone and there is no record any more of this guy calling, but there are two names of men whose names I hadn’t heard before and who call way too much, and out of business hours. I fear these are fake names for the same guy.

Last week, late in the evening, I came out of the bathroom half-way through my shower because I needed the new shampoo I had purchased. I overheard her on the cell-phone, talking in affectionate, hushed tones to someone. I didn't let on I had heard.

We left for work a little late yesterday in her car, and she had her personal cell phone on hands-free. One of the two "names" called (it was displayed on the dashboard) and she hung up twice, without answering. Minutes later, her business cell phone rang, and she pretended that the male caller was a formal business contact, but the info she gave him and the really quick sign-off suggests anything but. She didn’t say who it was but turned rapidly so sweet and nice to me (like old days), asking if we should “go out for dinner tonight”. 

I am not a perfect man, but I have been a good and loving husband, and I deserve better than this. Her family and colleagues seem to like me a lot; I certainly do them. I have tried numerous times to get her to talk about “us” and how we can improve our marriage and communication, but it’s always about her – unless someone is at “fault”, in which case it’s all about me.

I don’t have any hard evidence about an affair, so nothing conclusive to confront her with. But my gut is screaming otherwise.

Even without the affair, this pattern of self-centered and controlling behavior is very distressing.

Anyone have any advice?


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## the guy

Plant a VAR (voice activated recorder) in her car, and get a keylogger for the computer, also there is more snooping software for her cell.

You diserve to know what is going on and privacy is for the bath room, there are no secrets in a marriage so there is nothing wrong with validating your wifes loyalty and respect.

She is cheating and you need to investigate and gather the proof needed to confront her and bring her affair to the light of day were she has no way out but to admit her affair and make the choice to stay married or move on.

With out the proof she will continue to deny and make you look like the bad guy. So quitely investigate her actions so you can have a confrontation that will be effective in dealing with the issue.

With this proof you can also expose the affair to others if she desides to continue in her affair. with out this proof she will rewrite your marriage again making you out to be the bad guy.

There is is alot to this infidelity crap, so start by going stealth and put together a solid game plan for the confrontation, b/c confrontation is one of the biggest steps in dealing with this.

Don't even talk to her about this....they (cheaters) all lie. Go about your day as normal and when she feels you have backed off on your suspicion, she will start to make more mistakes, there by giving you more oppertunity to get the proof you need for a confrontation.

Again with out the proof alls you will get is "we're just friend" or "it was just a joke". Remember you need the undeniable evidence for her to face the reality that she is about to lose her marraige if it continues.

#1 important thing to do is never beg for your marriage, it will only empower your wife and leave you looking weak. Show some confidence that you can move with out her and she will for sure second quess her choices.


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## lordmayhem

Berilo said:


> My wife’s behavior over the past three or four months has been very strange and erratic.
> 
> We have been married for two years. She is 38 and I am 47, first marriage for her and second marriage for me. We don’t have any kids. Fortunately, we don’t have any major financial or health or family issues to deal with.


I see she married late, at 36 yrs old. You have no kids together and in good financial shape. But you have noticed a sudden change in behavior in the last 4 months. 



Berilo said:


> Last night, she came home late, walked right by me (when I had my outstretched arms open for hug), took a shower and went to bed. She turned her back to me. I gave her a hug and asked what was wrong and she said “nothing”.


*RED FLAG*. Google signs of infidelity, and you will find this is a red flag. Often cheaters who have just come from a sexual tryst with their AP will come home and head straight to the shower.



Berilo said:


> That’s when the light went on in my head. I connected the ugly recent dots. She has been very secretive with her cell phone and computer for the past few months. Two months ago, I observed a few too many calls with a certain male co-worker. When I commented on it, even half-jokingly saying I was a little “jealous”, she warmed up nervously -- and we had great sex that night.


*THREE RED FLAGS*. Too many calls to an unknown number, guarding her cell phone and secret computer use.. She then gave you sex to throw you off the trail.



Berilo said:


> I checked the cell phone and there is no record any more of this guy calling, but there are two names of men whose names I hadn’t heard before and who call way too much, and out of business hours. I fear these are fake names for the same guy.


Because she thinks you suspect, she's now using an affair phone, which she already has a ready made one - her business cell phone. This is where there communications will be. 



Berilo said:


> Last week, late in the evening, I came out of the bathroom half-way through my shower because I needed the new shampoo I had purchased. I overheard her on the cell-phone, talking in affectionate, hushed tones to someone. I didn't let on I had heard.


Not unusual, but taken in context with the other red flags, this does become suspicious behavior.



Berilo said:


> We left for work a little late yesterday in her car, and she had her personal cell phone on hands-free. One of the two "names" called (it was displayed on the dashboard) and she hung up twice, without answering. Minutes later, her business cell phone rang, and she pretended that the male caller was a formal business contact, but the info she gave him and the really quick sign-off suggests anything but. She didn’t say who it was but turned rapidly so sweet and nice to me (like old days), asking if we should “go out for dinner tonight”.


*RED FLAG.* Another sign of an affair. Receiving calls, but quickly hanging up when in your presence. Then fakes being nice to you to throw you off the track.

You have unwittingly found the way you are going to catch her. More on that later on.



Berilo said:


> I don’t have any hard evidence about an affair, so nothing conclusive to confront her with. But my gut is screaming otherwise.
> 
> Even without the affair, this pattern of self-centered and controlling behavior is very distressing.
> 
> Anyone have any advice?



Sudden change in behavior that started 4 months ago
Heading straight to the shower upon coming home
Secretive computer usage
Secretive phone usage
Calls to/from a strange number
Quickly hanging up cell phone in your presence

All the red flags point to an affair, most likely not just an EA, but a PA because of the red flag about heading straight to the shower. Since she has a business cell phone, the OM may be a coworker - the most common affair is the workplace affair.

Right now you don't have the evidence to confront. If you confront now, you will be gaslighted, made to think you're just crazy and jealous. Time to gather your evidence. Install computer monitoring software on the computer. This will allow you to obtain her passwords and find out what's going on with the OM, possibly how often they have sex and how long its been going on. Here's some good examples.

Best Computer Monitoring Software 2011 | Reviews, Ratings & More

Since she guards her cell phone and is probably using her work cell phone as the affair phone, you may not be able to install phone monitoring software. Here's some software IF you are able to access her phone:

Mobile Spy - Monitor SMS Text Messages, Call Info and GPS Locations on iPhone, BlackBerry, Android, Windows Mobile and Symbian OS Smartphones. Spy Software for Monitoring your Cell Phone

MobiStealth | Mobile Spy Software, Cell Phone Spy Monitoring, GPS Location Tracking App For $39.99 | iPhone, Blackberry, Android, Symbian/Nokia Spyware

IF you aren't able to access her cell phone or her affair phone, then you will have to try a Voice Activated Recorder (VAR). Like I said earlier, you stumbled on the way you are going to catch her. You can get a VAR, and stick it under her drivers seat in her vehicle with industrial strength velcro. If there is one place cheaters feel safe talking to their affair partners, its the vehicle. People in this forum have had good success with VARs. Here's some example of VARs

Philips - Voice Tracer Digital Voice Recorder - LFH061227

Walmart.com: Sony ICD-BX8112 Digital Flash Voice Recorder: iPods & MP3 Players

Its a bad sign that she's already cheating so early in the marriage. And she has already exhibited controlling tendencies. You need to find out exactly whats going on before DDay.


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## Jellybeans

Get a VAR and stick it in her car.

The signs are there. She may be having an affair.


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## 2xloser

Trust your gut instinct. You KNOW. So, do something about it, actively, as discussed here. And as you're collecting the proof for your confrontation, build two plans -- one for working toward reconciliation, and one for going your separate ways. This way you've already thought through options and plans, and can be prepared for either response you may get from her. You'll also be prepared of you hear deal-breaker things you cannot accept, and be able to follow through methodically while under great duress and emotionally very angry. 

Whatever happens upon confrontation -- do not beg or plead with her to stay with you, if that is what you want. You cannot make her stay, you can only offer the opportunity. Remember she will be in a fog, a high of chemical bodily reaction, will re-write your marital history, claim it is your fault, rug sweep, and/or attempt to play it off as nothing ("just friends"). Trust your evidence and your gut over anything that comes out of her mouth. Read all you can about the script, because you will experience some of it, guaranteed. And remember that cheaters lie, and liars will only admit to what they feel they must because they're caught... expect to NOT get the full truth for some time, if ever.

Search your soul for what you will do if it is infinitely worse story than you believe it to be. Know your options, and take care o yourself first & foremost. 

Sorry you are here and now in the club we never wanted to belong to. You've got a tough road ahead either way -- good luck & stay strong.


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## Shooboomafoo

I have an issue with keyloggers and VARs. 
Suppose they gave you all the juicy details? Would it help?
Does the person using them think that what they already know is not cause for concern? 
I simply am unable to see the benefit of going so far as to obtaining additional evidence. If one were to use the VAR to protect himself from a false temporary restraining order, thats another story. 
But please please dont fall into the daily quagmire of bludgeoning yourself over further evidence.
It is what you expect it to be. Its a tall hurdle and you need to give yourself permission to walk around it if need be for your own health. Its freaking fly paper, and will stick you to a place you dont want to be.

The "whats next" is what to consider. A plan, once the issue is addressed with her, and what you will do about it all. Where will you go, shore up your finances, cover your bare spots.

It sure is a bad place to be in, and in one way or another we all have been there and are going thru it.
As much as I thought gathering more evidence was the key, i found myself with volumes of information and weeks of sickness about it all during and after, that I had already honestly known in the beginning.


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## the guy

S-
The thing is getting to the "issue". So many DS deny and minumize the affair, that IMO it's not about details, its about the proof that the WS is behaving inapproprete, and that the LS has enough information to justify their stance in ending the marriage if the affair continues.

Again its not about details, but once enough evidence is revealed that an affair is for sure occuring, then this information can first be used to confront, and if need be used for exposeure.

In addition the information gathered protects the LS spouse from looking like the bad guy from family and friends and inabling the DS to rewrite history.

I believe the right amount of proof/details helps make the affair as inconvienent and as uncomfortable to continue. It may or may not stop the affair, but it will for sure give the LS and others the knowledge that the one they love is in an unhealthy relationship and also guild others in supprting the marriage. Were as with out the proof some my believe to support the DS b/c the LS is such a bad person that the DS had to leave the marriage.

With proof you can expose the reality the marraige is getting destroyed by an affair, not some made up BS the DS spreads around.


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## Lon

Shoo, I think in the case of reconciliation it may be important in some cases to be a helpful measure of rebuilding some trust. It is also useful if the LS is still making assumptions about the extent of the affair. As for divorcing it may also be helpful in jurisdictions that don't fall under a no fault system, or in cases where infidelity may expedite the process in while the DS refuses to sign an affidavit of their adultery. But otherwise I agree with you that knowing the details may definitely hurt the BS' ego even more than necessary.


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## Berilo

Thanks, everyone, for such prompt and thoughtful advice.

I really don't want to engage in espionage, nor do I want to generate pages of transcripts for some future hearing. And I certainly don't want to hear too many hurtful things about my marriage or about myself.

But as was pointed out above, I do want to know the basic truth about what is going on, so I can make some real and critical assessments and decisions. I can't live in this twilight zone for very long; it's hurting enough as it is.

Unfortunately, I have little confidence that my wife has the conscience to "come clean" with my mere triangulation of curious facts, "coincidences", etc. She will almost certainly tell me I am imagining things, I am jealous, I am blowing it out of proportion, etc. And I don't think a general, sincere declaration from me of "I love you, let's work on our marriage" will stop this train.

I will do some closer "observation" over the next week.

As for next steps, I'll start to think of them too, as Plan A and Plan B.


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## lordmayhem

Berilo said:


> Unfortunately, I have little confidence that my wife has the conscience to "come clean" with my mere triangulation of curious facts, "coincidences", etc. She will almost certainly tell me I am imagining things, I am jealous, I am blowing it out of proportion, etc. And I don't think a general, sincere declaration from me of "I love you, let's work on our marriage" will stop this train.
> 
> I will do some closer "observation" over the next week.
> 
> As for next steps, I'll start to think of them too, as Plan A and Plan B.


If that's the case, then all you're going to get are denials and gaslighting. Your observation isn't going to amount to much unless you do some real investigating as I outlined above. She's already taken the affair underground. But that's up to you if you're too afraid to know the full truth. Oh, and Plan A hardly ever works. All it does is continue to validate their feelings and their affair and make you appear weak. See if you can find many stories here that shows if Plan A works.


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## Berilo

lordmayhem said:


> Your observation isn't going to amount to much unless you do some real investigating as I outlined above.


I didn't say I wasn't going to investigate. Stay tuned.


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## 8yearscheating

I'll add to two very important things to look at. Check cell phone records and lok for repeating numbers. If you can get her phone long enough, download a copy of the address or contacts list. If she has an Iphone - google reading deleted texts iphone and textpad. Just remember the last backup sync is written over everytime the phone is synced so read the backup first then sync.

MOST IMPORTANTLY - whatever you find or however you find it DO NOT REVEAL EXACTLY WHAT YOU KNOW AND HOW YOU FOUND IT!!! If you do, she will block all of your access and shut down those methods. Check email accounts and facebook etc if you have access or do it after you get the passwords from a keylogger. I know yuo don't start keeping records, but remember as soon as you confront her, everything you see will disappear. Even though you probably can't use it in court if it gets ugly, her not knowing whether you ahve anything or not will make her more likely to be reasonable no matter which way it goes. You may also need to notify his spouse in wich case SOME proof prevents him from covering his tracks. It can also be helpful if your wife decides to reconcile (R) and this guy refuses to give up. You are now holding some significant cards to both protect her and shut him down. Think ahead my good man. You are not going into a war with your wife but you may be with him! 

Last but not least, she may have other email accounts your not aware of and a pay as you go phone from a big box that you won't know about. You may want to check credit card statements for hotels and other purchases that don't make sense. Oneof the members here even had her husband give a loan to the other woman (OW or OM).

Protect yourself. Tehre is no doubt in anyones mind here she is in an affair. All of her behavior and actions say she is.

Keep us posted. Were here for you whether you decide to move on without her or reconcile. Follow your gut, not your heart.


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## 8yearscheating

Last but not least - I agree with Shooboomafoo on one thing. Do not delve into ALL the gory details when you confront. They create triggers and mental movies that make it harder to get through the trauma. You MUST be calm and contain your anager and what you say when you confront and for all the future if you hope to reconcile and not have it be even more difficult. She WILL lie to you and let out the truth slowly (trickle truth). She WILL give reasons for it as being your fault and the problems in the marriage until she can face herself and what she has done which takes a long time. If you feel yourself getting angry, take a time out for yourself before you run your mouth. ALWAYS - engage brain before mouth.


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## Berilo

Thanks, 8yc. I will try to keep focused on what is important and do things in a measured way. It won't be easy, but I understand what you are saying.

It doesn't necessarily matter to the path forward, but I am utterly shocked by two things in her behavior:

1. How she can find such fault with me and our marriage. From my perspective, nothing had changed much since we met four years ago and got married two years ago. Sure, the "honeymoon" phase of the relationship faded as it always does, but I thought we were replacing that with a deeper, more profound love of living a happy life together. (Wrong!) I think I have been a good husband, tried to be attentive to her needs, always available to help and listen. Certainly we haven't suffered any marital trauma or turbulence before. How can she find -- and express -- such fault with me so suddenly? Am I not the same person she married? What's that all about?

From the fragments of emails and messages I have now seen, she is complaining to this guy about me, my real and supposed shortcomings, why she isn't happy. Naturally, that just emboldens them to spend more time together and get in league against me, "the bad guy". (As a semi-objective reading, this is just a conspiracy of the two of them -- her family and friends I know have been nothing but warm and friendly to me to date.) Surely she must realize that she is feeding a monster if she dishes on me in front of him.

If someone wakes up one day and decides s/he married the wrong person, isn't the decent and honorable thing to do to show some remorse, and make it less hard for the other person? I really would prefer to hear something like, "You are a great guy and I know you tried to be a good husband. I am sorry, but for whatever reason, this isn't working for me -- I need space and want to be single again. I hope you find someone who can commit more than I can. I feel awful about this and will try to make it as easy as possible on us." I wouldn't like that, of course, but it would be clear, show some responsibility and basic feeling, and respect for the person being let down. What she is doing is piling disrespect onto irresponsibility. I married this woman?

2. I shake my head at the amateurish, adolescent nature of this affair. Does she really think I won't notice her inattentive demeanor, frequent passive-aggressive conduct and furtive behavior? It's become screamingly obvious. It's almost like I don't exist, my needs/concerns don't matter a damn, while she's on some emotional trip that I am supposed to pay for but not participate in? She doesn't see how awfully transparent this is. What's that all about? Can't she even be smart about how she has an affair or manages the break-up, or whatever she's doing? Is she trying to provoke me? (I haven't bit, yet anyway.)

I have never been in this situation before and it is really sad and troubling. I know I might never get answers to these nagging questions, but I would like to try to understand what is going on so I can get my bearings and do the right thing, whatever that might be. Certainly I have to prepare myself for the realization that my marriage -- which I thought was so happy three months ago -- might be over.


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## lordmayhem

As you read more about how affairs happen and the dynamics of affairs, you will see that they follow a certain pattern.

It's a myth that affairs only happen in problematic marriages. Many times it's that the wayward spouse starts an innocent friendship that gradually crosses marital boundaries into the affair, the so-called slippery slope. It was nothing you did.

Another aspect is that the wayward spouse (her) begins to re-write the marital history in her head and she and her affair partner demonize you. This is so she can justify the affair to herself. They almost all do this.

Again, you could be the most perfect husband in the world, but if she is in the affair, she will literally invent things and see her marriage as terrible, just so she can justify her cheating in her mind.

The adolescent behavior you speak of is called being in the FOG of the affair. A very similar situation when teenagers fall head over heals in love with someone. This state of mind is fed by the secretive nature of the affair. That it's taboo. They get off on the thrill of sneaking around and deceiving you and others. While in the fog, they experience the endorphins secreted in the brain, and the rush. It's quite addictive, and because of this, they very rarely stop an affair on their own.


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## Berilo

lordmayhem said:


> It's a myth that affairs only happen in problematic marriages. Many times it's that the wayward spouse starts an innocent friendship that gradually crosses marital boundaries into the affair, the so-called slippery slope. It was nothing you did.
> 
> Another aspect is that the wayward spouse (her) begins to re-write the marital history in her head and she and her affair partner demonize you. This is so she can justify the affair to herself. They almost all do this.
> 
> Again, you could be the most perfect husband in the world, but if she is in the affair, she will literally invent things and see her marriage as terrible, just so she can justify her cheating in her mind.
> 
> The adolescent behavior you speak of is called being in the FOG of the affair. .... They get off on the thrill of sneaking around and deceiving you and others. While in the fog, they experience the endorphins secreted in the brain, and the rush. It's quite addictive, and because of this, they very rarely stop an affair on their own.


Thanks for this. I am hardly perfect, but on the whole, I think I was a pretty darn good husband and companion to her. I was happy and in love. Maybe knowing that it's not a direct cause-and-effect situation will make the hurt sting a little less for me.

With regard to martial revisionism, I am aghast at the re-writing of our marriage that I think I am beginning to see here. I can understand how someone might look back and say, "That was a bit of a drag after all", or "I put up with more than I thought I would", but to denigrate a whole experience with someone you thought you loved as being horrible and stultifying or oppressive or whatever is so wrong, unfair, and insulting.


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## lordmayhem

Berilo said:


> Thanks for this. I am hardly perfect, but on the whole, I think I was a pretty darn good husband and companion to her. I was happy and in love. Maybe knowing that it's not a direct cause-and-effect situation will make the hurt sting a little less for me.
> 
> With regard to martial revisionism, I am aghast at the re-writing of our marriage that I think I am beginning to see here. I can understand how someone might look back and say, "That was a bit of a drag after all", or "I put up with more than I thought I would", but to denigrate a whole experience with someone you thought you loved as being horrible and stultifying or oppressive or whatever is so wrong, unfair, and insulting.


And that is one of the things that are so hurtful about affairs. It's not just the betrayal and broken trust. Its the re-writing of the history of the marriage and the demonzing the betrayed spouse. Here's a good thread to read

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/29226-what-were-most-marriages-like-pre-infidelity.html

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/26784-lame-excuses-lies-list-will-fun.html

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/17719-could-someone-explain-fog.html

Remember, none of it is your fault. She chose to cheat, lie, and betray. She may have already gone from EA to PA, especially likely if OM is a coworker. IF you decide you want to stay with this cheater, you are going to have to be steadfast. And that means killing the affair. However, the way you describe your WW, it seems affairs are inevitable.


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## Entropy3000

lordmayhem said:


> As you read more about how affairs happen and the dynamics of affairs, you will see that they follow a certain pattern.
> 
> It's a myth that affairs only happen in problematic marriages. Many times it's that the wayward spouse starts an innocent friendship that gradually crosses marital boundaries into the affair, the so-called slippery slope. It was nothing you did.
> 
> Another aspect is that the wayward spouse (her) begins to re-write the marital history in her head and she and her affair partner demonize you. This is so she can justify the affair to herself. They almost all do this.
> 
> Again, you could be the most perfect husband in the world, but if she is in the affair, she will literally invent things and see her marriage as terrible, just so she can justify her cheating in her mind.
> 
> The adolescent behavior you speak of is called being in the FOG of the affair. A very similar situation when teenagers fall head over heals in love with someone. This state of mind is fed by the secretive nature of the affair. That it's taboo. They get off on the thrill of sneaking around and deceiving you and others. While in the fog, they experience the endorphins secreted in the brain, and the rush. It's quite addictive, and because of this, they very rarely stop an affair on their own.


I totally agree with this. Yes marraiges that are having problems are vulnerable to affairs. BUT, affairs cause otherwise good marriages to have serious problems.

Not all affairs are the result of poor marriages. Not having good boundaries can lead to real problems. But even with boundaries they can happen. It happens slowly. The spouse may not be looking for an affair at all. But it happens.

Revisionist history sets in to justify the affair.

It is important in a marriage to recognize the symtoms of a developing affair. Do not have blind trust. Have blind love. That type of love that empowers you to be strong and help your partner if they seem to be going down the wrong path. Even if they insist they don;t want or need help. They are dillusional. They may not realize it. You have to engage and intervene to help them to stop. My wife did this for me. Don't the whole we are just friends thing. They may even believe that. Their mind is not right. They are under the influence of some powerful chemicals in the brain.


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## Berilo

Unfortunately, and to my huge disappointment, my wife seems inherently to be at risk for going wayward.



lordmayhem said:


> She may have already gone from EA to PA, especially likely if OM is a coworker.


The OM is indeed a coworker. They are in exactly the same line of professional work. She said a couple of months ago that she can "talk to him about anything and he really understands me". Implication: I am useless and insensitive. Sure I am not in the same line of work, but I am in another, equally interesting one. She doesn't seem to be really interested in what I do. I'd be delighted to take her on a lengthy tour of my world.



lordmayhem said:


> However, the way you describe your WW, it seems affairs are inevitable.


She might be inherently emotionally un-grounded, confusing attention/excitement for profundity and low-key, warm, sustained stability for dullness. I don't think I "entertained" her enough; but then again, she seems like she can only be entertained on her own terms. She's not "bossy" per se, but very particular about what she wants when she wants it (or doesn't want). She detests surprise parties for her, considering them to be an imposition. Nonetheless, she purports to crave spontaneity -- which I now think is a clever excuse to avoid being pinned down for social events she doesn't want to attend (usually mine). While I like to hang around the home as much as any happily married guy, I thought our social life was becoming a little narrowed/stymied by her.

I just yesterday recalled how she told me that a therapist she saw a few years ago (on a short series of consultations) said that she had a controlling personality and has a big fear of abandonment. There is something to this. Her father left her and two siblings when they were toddlers. Her mother (to mom's credit) stuck with it to provide well enough for the family on her own but kind of burned out in the process; once the kids were in college mom phased out herself to become a bit of a hippie loner. My wife rarely sees her parents or siblings, although one lives close by. I wonder how a non-family has affected her outlook.

She is very friendly and charming in small doses -- her colleagues and casual acquaintances just love her -- and I don't think this is fake at all. But she seems to have precious few real, solid friends outside of a narrow work circle with whom she interacts on a current basis. She also says very unkind things about such friends -- not even as a caring criticism -- often about their lack of ability or persistence or perspective.

Speaking of criticism, she is the original contradiction of "being able to dish it out but not take it". Even friendly suggestions are received like out-of-line comments. (I am not a back-seat driver at all, but occasionally do like to warn the driver if there is something coming that s/he might not see, like a pedestrian behind us in the parking lot of the mall. She told me not to comment on anything again with her driving, as she can see everything. Yes, she is an excellent and alert driver, but this attitude is uniquely over-confident and dangerous.) In many of our arguments, she refuses to try to see my perspective, because it's all cut-and-dried, and I am wrong, deluded, lazy, whatever.

Sometimes I detect a woman trying to be Superwoman, but who is overcompensating to the max at every turn: a hard-boiled exterior which might have a marshmallow trapped inside. But the confection isn't sweet and cute when you get up real close and take a bite -- it's sour and nasty.


----------



## the guy

B-
You got some smart and cool dudes posting to your thread, thats for sure.
I just wanted to make a point about how screwed up the DS is and it also amazes me how they twist the sh~t out of everything just so they can sleep at night.


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## Entropy3000

I had an EA um-teen years ago at work. My wife picked up on it and engaged. She contacted some mutual friends who I worked with. They helped with the situation.

The bottom-line is that she exposed the affair. I thought it was adeep friendship. Only later on did I come to realize I was in an EA. The Withdrawal told me that.

The thing is that the affair will not end as long as they work together. So you would have to expose the affair there and get her to change jobs.


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## Entropy3000

Berilo said:


> Thanks, 8yc. I will try to keep focused on what is important and do things in a measured way. It won't be easy, but I understand what you are saying.
> 
> It doesn't necessarily matter to the path forward, but I am utterly shocked by two things in her behavior:
> 
> 1. How she can find such fault with me and our marriage. From my perspective, nothing had changed much since we met four years ago and got married two years ago. Sure, the "honeymoon" phase of the relationship faded as it always does, but I thought we were replacing that with a deeper, more profound love of living a happy life together. (Wrong!) I think I have been a good husband, tried to be attentive to her needs, always available to help and listen. Certainly we haven't suffered any marital trauma or turbulence before. How can she find -- and express -- such fault with me so suddenly? Am I not the same person she married? What's that all about?
> 
> From the fragments of emails and messages I have now seen, she is complaining to this guy about me, my real and supposed shortcomings, why she isn't happy. Naturally, that just emboldens them to spend more time together and get in league against me, "the bad guy". (As a semi-objective reading, this is just a conspiracy of the two of them -- her family and friends I know have been nothing but warm and friendly to me to date.) Surely she must realize that she is feeding a monster if she dishes on me in front of him.
> 
> If someone wakes up one day and decides s/he married the wrong person, isn't the decent and honorable thing to do to show some remorse, and make it less hard for the other person? I really would prefer to hear something like, "You are a great guy and I know you tried to be a good husband. I am sorry, but for whatever reason, this isn't working for me -- I need space and want to be single again. I hope you find someone who can commit more than I can. I feel awful about this and will try to make it as easy as possible on us." I wouldn't like that, of course, but it would be clear, show some responsibility and basic feeling, and respect for the person being let down. What she is doing is piling disrespect onto irresponsibility. I married this woman?
> 
> 2. I shake my head at the amateurish, adolescent nature of this affair. Does she really think I won't notice her inattentive demeanor, frequent passive-aggressive conduct and furtive behavior? It's become screamingly obvious. It's almost like I don't exist, my needs/concerns don't matter a damn, while she's on some emotional trip that I am supposed to pay for but not participate in? She doesn't see how awfully transparent this is. What's that all about? Can't she even be smart about how she has an affair or manages the break-up, or whatever she's doing? Is she trying to provoke me? (I haven't bit, yet anyway.)
> 
> I have never been in this situation before and it is really sad and troubling. I know I might never get answers to these nagging questions, but I would like to try to understand what is going on so I can get my bearings and do the right thing, whatever that might be. Certainly I have to prepare myself for the realization that my marriage -- which I thought was so happy three months ago -- might be over.


You make perfect sense sir. 

The person in the affair is truly mentally impaired by the chemicals playing in their brain due to the affair. The power of this is unbeleiveable. Defies all logic and even their sense of loyaly, right and wrong and love for their spouse. They can come out of it the wiser for it however. No always and probably not usually, but it can happen.


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## Berilo

Entropy3000 said:


> They are dillusional. They may not realize it. You have to engage and intervene to help them to stop. My wife did this for me.


How can the partner not realize the error of throwing themselves at (or with) another person in a physical affair for an extended period?

How can the betrayed partner intervene to make them stop? Doesn't this require the wayward spouse to see the reality of their situation and the likely consequences of their actions? I can't imagine my spouse understands what she is doing. I think she thinks she is having the equivalent of a little snack of cake on the side every afternoon, without adequately appreciating that she is putting at risk her main daily meal.

While I might understand (but not endorse) a quick what-happens-in-Vegas type of fling, where the issue is stifled as soon as there is a return to reality, I am amazed how she seems to think she can have two men in parallel. This is inherently risky, impossible, stupid, and likely to blow up in her face.

Is she so reckless, or is this the prelude, the big wind-up to a definitive break-up with me? If it weren't for her deep-seated fear of abandonment, I would have to vote for the latter.


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## Berilo

the guy said:


> B-
> You got some smart and cool dudes posting to your thread, thats for sure.


I sure do! Thanks to everyone! I am feeling slightly less horrible about all this because you're there! (How's that for a compliment?)

- B


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## 2xloser

I feel for you, I really do because I can see so much parallel to our wives. The difference is, when I discovered and confronted, she immediately came to her senses (I think), and is adamant that she wasn't even considering herself IN an affair while it was going on(!!!!). She too compartmentalized what she did from her supposed love for me... From what I read in your posts, she is goading you into a confrontation she actually wants, deep-down...kind of like the cheater who actually subconsciously wants to get caught because they don't have the guts to just come clean and admit what they're doing. I feel horrible for you because it feels to me like IF you in fact want to stay with her and IF she in turn once confronted wants to stay with you (two BIG BIG "ifs" imho), then you've got a really ugly, tough road ahead.

And if you decide you DON'T -- you've still got an ugly road ahead, although a shorter and clearer one.


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## Berilo

2xloser said:


> From what I read in your posts, she is goading you into a confrontation she actually wants, deep-down...kind of like the cheater who actually subconsciously wants to get caught because they don't have the guts to just come clean and admit what they're doing.


Regrettably, I am moving towards the same conclusion, if not quite there yet. (I am still thinking she is reacting to some weird anti-abandonment psyche scenario where she needs two men to profess their -- compete for her -- love to make her feel secure.) Her liaison with this colleague seems to be too deep, too "comfortable", too reckless to be a temporary diversion or refuge from a lonely or vulnerable moment. I think she is trying to either get me to react (in which case I am again the "bad guy" for provoking a scene) or to suffer quiet humiliation in place at home (to her sick satisfaction) for some longer period.

By the way, the colleague in question has apparently had a very rocky marital history. He and his wife separated two years ago, but he returned last year because of their kids. So I am guessing it wouldn't be difficult to pry him loose again if he had a good incentive on his hands.

This appears to be a train-wreck happening in slow motion.


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## Entropy3000

Berilo said:


> How can the partner not realize the error of throwing themselves at (or with) another person in a physical affair for an extended period?
> 
> How can the betrayed partner intervene to make them stop? Doesn't this require the wayward spouse to see the reality of their situation and the likely consequences of their actions? I can't imagine my spouse understands what she is doing. I think she thinks she is having the equivalent of a little snack of cake on the side every afternoon, without adequately appreciating that she is putting at risk her main daily meal.
> 
> While I might understand (but not endorse) a quick what-happens-in-Vegas type of fling, where the issue is stifled as soon as there is a return to reality, I am amazed how she seems to think she can have two men in parallel. This is inherently risky, impossible, stupid, and likely to blow up in her face.
> 
> Is she so reckless, or is this the prelude, the big wind-up to a definitive break-up with me? If it weren't for her deep-seated fear of abandonment, I would have to vote for the latter.


I am speaking from my own experience with an EA. What you are doing feels ok. Even though it is wrong. Logic does not apply. In my case I was convinced it was just a friendship. Until I went through withdrawal I did not realize the magnitude.

My wife intervened. I was not understanding. It felt ok. BUT, I did love my wife. She was firm and demanded the contact stop. I was not so far gone that with her and some friends help that I couldn't shake it. I absolutely needed intervention. It was like just falling slowly into a black hole. No excuses, this was double down stupid @$$hole sh!t. I was an idiot. BUT it is chemical. It is an addiction. The dopamin is feeding the brain. You gravitate towards the fix. You are numb to reality.

This is why I get upset with people tha flirt with danger. They put themselves in bad situations convinced they can handle it.

In my case I was changing jobs anyway. Otherwise I would have had to quit.

My wife exposed the affair. 

FWIW, in my case I never went into this looking to be unfaithful. It was something that developed and became inappropriate. It must have been strong because it took weeks of withdrawal with the help of some anti-depressants to make it through. Also my wife did truly love me. She did not want to lose me. She was not passive. She was firm. She did not take my fog talk as anything more than dilirium.

I only recently forgave myself at the urging of my wife. She had forgiven me long ago. She new that I had not meant this to happen. But I did not stop it. It felt ok. I was wrong.

All I am saying is that people can realize they were wrong. My wife and I have more trust for each other today than before that situation. I am the wiser for my transgression. Also I used up my free pass .....

I think a huge key to this is early detection and action. Time is not on the side of sanity.

Your wife is cake eating. It is good to be the Goddess. It feels great to her.

While she likes cake eating what usually happens is that the wife will revise history and trade up. Now this may not really be a trade up. But she is influenced by the fog.


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## 8yearscheating

DO NOT over analyze her reasons. She isn't thinking that much or that clearly or that devious other than trying to keep it going and not get caught.  She is rewriting the history as lord mayhem eloquently described to justify what she's doing because she KNOWS it's wrong. She can't look at herself in the mirror without a reason to be doing what she's doing so she paints the marriage and you black and ugly. She is responding to you the way she is because she is trying to prove her justifications right. If she accepted your love she wouldn't be right. Her ethical and moral boundaries keeping her from doing this kept moving slowly out further and further until she can't even believe herself what she's doing so she needs more justifications - that's why he and her go on spouse bashing commiserating.

BELIEVE - the affair is not your fault AT ALL. She made these decisions completely on her own and she will take quite a long time to accept that and begin to forgive herself. First she has to take the mask off she has put on to protect herself from her own conscience and see the real ugliness of herself in the mirror. That can't happen until the thrill of the high is severely tarnished and the A is out in the open for everyone to see it's ugliness - especially her. The delusional fog she is in is preventing her from seeing reality.

SO - what to do? First start by getting enough evidence that know how far it's gone. Is it strictly talk? Is it physical? Don't go beyond that and try to dig up the physical details they are horrifying and will only create mind movies and triggers that start them playing that you have to get past later. Then confront. Expect her to lie and tell only part of the story. Expect her to tell you it's your fault because you did or didn't do something. Expect her not to own it and initially not to commit to ending it. If it goes better than that then great, your ahead of the game already. If not, you won't be as let down knowing what to expect. What I describe is the typical WS reaction to confrontation.

Then what? Don't ask, just notify his wife and present to her whatever FACTS you've discovered. If you tell your wife first, he will cover his tracks and build a story first with her help. Your wife will accuse YOU of being insensitive and only hurting his wife. His deserves to know as much as you do. It will also keep him very busy trying to recover and most likely cause him to drop your wife like a bad disease.

Then you see how she reacts. Words don't count - only actions do. Don;t push a list of demands or she will head back to him where she THINKS she has safety and someone who doesn't impose horrible restrictions on her. You have to wait for her show remorse and a commitment to work on it before you start laying out what you need to feel secure and try yourself. Don't beg or chase. State ONCE, divorce is not what you want and you would like to try and work things out but that she must want to and show it before you will even try. Those actions START with transparency of everything she uses for the affair - phones, email facebook, texts and most importantly NO CONTACT AT ALL (NC). No breaking it off slowly. Puts her in the position of making a choice and doing it in the light in front of you.

Then wait - but not too long.

That's as far as you should look right now. Her reaction to the confrontation and the requirements will decide your next move. There are more drastic steps that can taken to try and get her stop. In this case fast is slow and smooth and careful are quick. KEEP YOUR TEMPER AND STEP AWAY if you can't.


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## 8yearscheating

Get cracking chief! Step one - evidence of how far it's gone.


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## 8yearscheating

I must add - and not to give you false hope - just encouragement - you can get through this. IF she decides to try it can be better than it was before. My story - 27 years married - wife 20 years cheating - 2 men 20 years ago, my "friend" for 18 years. My youngest is MY daughter but not biologically. We are reconciling, almost 8 months since Dday - a long journey yet to go. Madly in love with each other and doing very well. IT CAN WORK OUT! First she has to want to try. One of the steps on the journey is figuring out how you didn't know she was not happy. The things she throws out now contain nuggets of the largest issues. BOTH of you as a TEAM will need to make changes to make it work going forward. Some, you might be able to start working on on your side now to show her you can change.


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## pidge70

Berilo said:


> Unfortunately, and to my huge disappointment, my wife seems inherently to be at risk for going wayward.
> 
> 
> 
> The OM is indeed a coworker. They are in exactly the same line of professional work. She said a couple of months ago that she can "talk to him about anything and he really understands me". Implication: I am useless and insensitive. Sure I am not in the same line of work, but I am in another, equally interesting one. She doesn't seem to be really interested in what I do. I'd be delighted to take her on a lengthy tour of my world.
> 
> 
> 
> She might be inherently emotionally un-grounded, confusing attention/excitement for profundity and low-key, warm, sustained stability for dullness. I don't think I "entertained" her enough; but then again, she seems like she can only be entertained on her own terms. She's not "bossy" per se, but very particular about what she wants when she wants it (or doesn't want). She detests surprise parties for her, considering them to be an imposition. Nonetheless, she purports to crave spontaneity -- which I now think is a clever excuse to avoid being pinned down for social events she doesn't want to attend (usually mine). While I like to hang around the home as much as any happily married guy, I thought our social life was becoming a little narrowed/stymied by her.
> 
> I just yesterday recalled how she told me that a therapist she saw a few years ago (on a short series of consultations) said that she had a controlling personality and has a big fear of abandonment. There is something to this. Her father left her and two siblings when they were toddlers. Her mother (to mom's credit) stuck with it to provide well enough for the family on her own but kind of burned out in the process; once the kids were in college mom phased out herself to become a bit of a hippie loner. My wife rarely sees her parents or siblings, although one lives close by. I wonder how a non-family has affected her outlook.
> 
> She is very friendly and charming in small doses -- her colleagues and casual acquaintances just love her -- and I don't think this is fake at all. But she seems to have precious few real, solid friends outside of a narrow work circle with whom she interacts on a current basis. She also says very unkind things about such friends -- not even as a caring criticism -- often about their lack of ability or persistence or perspective.
> 
> Speaking of criticism, she is the original contradiction of "being able to dish it out but not take it". Even friendly suggestions are received like out-of-line comments. (I am not a back-seat driver at all, but occasionally do like to warn the driver if there is something coming that s/he might not see, like a pedestrian behind us in the parking lot of the mall. She told me not to comment on anything again with her driving, as she can see everything. Yes, she is an excellent and alert driver, but this attitude is uniquely over-confident and dangerous.) In many of our arguments, she refuses to try to see my perspective, because it's all cut-and-dried, and I am wrong, deluded, lazy, whatever.
> 
> Sometimes I detect a woman trying to be Superwoman, but who is overcompensating to the max at every turn: a hard-boiled exterior which might have a marshmallow trapped inside. But the confection isn't sweet and cute when you get up real close and take a bite -- it's sour and nasty.



Just from this bit that you posted, sounds like your wife could have BPD. Sounds a lot like how I was...look it up and see if there are other things she might identify with.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Berilo

pidge70 said:


> Just from this bit that you posted, sounds like your wife could have BPD. Sounds a lot like how I was...look it up and see if there are other things she might identify with.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Do you mean "borderline personality disorder"? I'll read up on it today.

How does her conduct I outlined remind you of how you were? I am very interested to know.

I really am trying to understand what I am dealing with here.

Thanks!


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## Berilo

I am really stressed out today. Kind of in my own "fog", but it's nothing light and energizing, let me tell you.

I saw more signs yesterday and this morning:

1. She worked late (probably legitimate given her shift) last night but came home REALLY late, at 4:30 am. Funny how she sent me a text message at midnight saying she'd be home soon.
2. She left early this morning to "buy some bread" from the nice bakery around the corner. Which we do often, but it doesn't take an hour. And who thinks of getting up after only 3 hours sleep and buying some bread? (I am thinking she had a snooze somewhere else between midnight and 4:00 am.)
3. Yesterday morning she was on her laptop. She shut down the page quickly when I approached (I could see the action in the mirror).
4. Her cell phones are locked down tight.
5. Her mood varies between being occasionally (and strangely) sweet and upbeat and mostly indifferent, businesslike, or negative.
6. She seems kind of stressed out herself.
7. She is offloading more of the current home responsibilities to me. She "doesn't want to fight" with me about the (modest) home renovation we are doing, so could I please manage it all? Oh, and can I take care of all of the vacation plans for September; she's "not so good at that!" (true, actually). I wonder whether she is mentally checking out of our marital home or just entranced by her romantic "fog" of the affair.

I am trying to be "normal", positive and loving, while gathering the information that I need and planning what to do. I don't want to set off a confrontation with her too early.

This is really killing me though. A dozen sharp jabs a day to the heart and balls. I am finding it difficult to concentrate on anything, including my job.


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## 8yearscheating

What have you discovered so far, the info gathering doesn't need to be like a lawyers discovery beofre trial with no stone left unturned. You need to get this out in the open as quickly as possible before you self destruct!


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## the guy

Try;

Voice activated recorder planted in her car. Catch her saying "I love you" 

GPS also in her car.Catch her in the lies with regards to her were about. Then you can call her on were she was, or even find out exactly were she was.

I'm thinking she has mentally checked out of the marital home *becuase* there is OM.

I can see 8- point if you can no longer handle the spy game, then confront and take your chances with a weak and noneffective confrontation.

But do not beg for your marriage when you do confront. Let her know you no longer want to be marriaed to a women that has all the red flags of a cheating spouse.

At least with a location from the GPS and a VAR you can at least ask her some specific and informative questions. With a small chance that she thinks she is really busted and admitts.

Hire a PI, or have someone you trust and she doesn't know follow her.

I just think a confrontation would be more effective if you had a place or name, or at least catcher in a lie with regards to her were about, especially if she is truelly is not at work. Again give the GPS a shot!


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## disappointed123

Believe me - not knowing and guessing that she is cheating is way worse than feeling a little icky from snooping and finding out the absolute truth. 

You need some hard evidence, once you get it = present it. Do not present your sources. She will try to make you into the bad guy. Dont listen. You did not cause her to cheat. She did. Find out the truth, and hit her in the face with it. (figuratively, of course)


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## Berilo

disappointed123 said:


> Believe me - not knowing and guessing that she is cheating is way worse than feeling a little icky from snooping and finding out the absolute truth.
> 
> You need some hard evidence, once you get it = present it. Do not present your sources. She will try to make you into the bad guy. Dont listen. You did not cause her to cheat. She did. Find out the truth, and hit her in the face with it. (figuratively, of course)


I agree that not knowing the full extent of this is worse than trying to find out.

I am not sure that any hard evidence I find (unless I actually catch them in the act somewhere) will encourage her to come clean and admit what has been going on. I am doing this for me, so I know what facts I am dealing with, and can take appropriate action from.

She might think that she can continue to mislead, snow and push me around the way she has over the past two years -- but she doesn't know that I am the type of "decent guy" who, when pushed too far, never goes back.


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## pidge70

I wish you luck.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

What have you found so far?


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## Berilo

8yearscheating said:


> What have you found so far?


In terms of hard evidence, not much, but enough:

1. A text from OM on her cell. ("I miss you, my love", etc.)
2. Lots of calls/text from OM's name on her cell phone record until two weeks ago, then stopped suddenly and then two other names appeared (including the one she hung up on twice in my presence in the car).
3. An email in her trash that she hadn't cleared from a month ago to OM asking if he might want to come by, snuggle and watch a movie with her. Which happened to be the day after I left town on a four-day business trip. (I found this when she forgot to log off her account and fell asleep. A dagger through my heart.)

This is enough objective evidence to make me certain I am not crazy or jealous or imagining things. But the pattern of furtive conduct -- hiding in the bathroom with the door shut too often, locking down and jealously guarding her cell phones, unexplained or inconsistent absences or lapses, finding total fault with me, being indifferent to my well-being (other than formulaically), not being engaged in our home renovation and vacation plans -- is actually a bigger sign.

I need to find a better paper and voice trail to back it up.

Oh, by the way, I have confirmed that OM is married, but "unhappily". He has known my wife for many years and is a "peer" of hers in the profession. He lives in another city a few hours away but comes to work in the same relatively small office as she is in two days a week (stays over a night or two, without his family, of course). So he's a perfect fling for her: he's available every week, "understands her", and is really eager to find some lovin'.

I have never met him, but I hear he is a real animated guy. I think he gushes all over her. I don't "gush", but I am a warm person who frequently expressed my love and appreciation for my wife. I think she is mistaking flash for substance here.

I can almost hear what she's saying to him: "Oh, OM, you are so fun and easy to talk to. You understand me. We can talk about everything. And you're so hot! I can't wait to get more! I can't talk to my husband. He's reserved. He is a stick-in-the-mud, is only interested in [whatever]. And he argues all of the time with me. I think he's defensive about everything. I actually think he's screwing his [secretary/dentist/neighbor/whoever] on the side, you know. But only in the daytime, 'cause he usually falls asleep quickly at night. How fun is that?"

Let's mark this prediction and see how right I am about the dialogue when I find out more.


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## Eli-Zor

You have enough to out him to his wife and if you know who employs him. He is likely to be using company time to conduct the affair , and no doubt company assets to send mails and/or a company paid hotel room.

Out him to his wife, they are all unhappily married , supposedly, as is your wife according to her. Do not tell your wife, expose and wait , if she changes her behaviour she is still I'm contact. Be decisive and act fast.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

What kind of phone does she have? IS it an Iphone?


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## 2xloser

The text/calls/email are PLENTY to have the sit-down confrontation right now. Having "proof" is not a requirement to have an open discussion with your wife about what you KNOW she is doing.

Don't reveal how you know. Just reveal that you know, and want to discuss what is going top happen moving forward -- as in, "Does she or does she not want to be married?" I don't get what you're waiting for to have this discussion, because from all her actions you describe, she's as likely to say "No" as she is "Yes".

if she says "Yes", then you get immediate open access to everything, because she will have nothing to hide...you will know right then and there what's happening. 

Like 8yrs said, you don't need to gather evidence as if you're Perry Mason walking in to court. 

Of course she will deny, and I get that you want to be able to show her something and say "well what about _this_ then???" -- but meanwhile, this activity goes on, gets deeper, and she gets time to cover her tracks. 

I would not wait a second longer. You KNOW what's going on, and so does she obviously. You don't need to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt to a jury.

Again, do have specific plans of action for what you will do with either response from her. Good luck!


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## Eli-Zor

I suspect they have gone underground and have another way of communicating. Remember the evidence of the affair does not have to stand up in court it is for you to be sure she is in the affair , while what you have is sparse it enough to let his wife know. To gather more , keyloggers, phone spyware, gps in her car and a couple of VARs strategically place will give you more. I would continue to snoop but do encourage you to let his wife know, two pairs of eyes are better than one. Confront your wife as well
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lordmayhem

Eli-Zor said:


> You have enough to out him to his wife and if you know who employs him. He is likely to be using company time to conduct the affair , and no doubt company assets to send mails and/or a company paid hotel room.


Definitely expose the A to the company Human Resources department, she is already using her company issued cell phone to conduct the affair as well as the above.



Eli-Zor said:


> Out him to his wife, they are all unhappily married , supposedly, as is your wife according to her. Do not tell your wife, expose and wait , if she changes her behaviour she is still I'm contact. Be decisive and act fast.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yup. Cheating men will usually say:
1. They are in an unhappy, loveless, sexless marriage
2. His wife is cheating already, doesn't care and they plan to divorce.
3. His wife is batsh!t crazy, and they plan to divorce

Or some variation of the above.


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## 8yearscheating

EXPOSE/confront and quit holding back.


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## Almostrecovered

If I was on a jury I would have convicted for less
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Berilo

I was wondering how I could have possibly gotten myself into this situation, marrying such a clearly issue-laden woman.

But things did seem so perfect for the first year. It was exactly like Uptown describes in a post on another thread regarding initial attraction to BPDer:

"Could the attraction have been her mirroring your personality so perfectly that the two of you were convinced you had met your soul mate? Could it have been the most passionate and greatest sexual experience of your lifetime? Could it have been that childlike quality that gives her a warmth and purity of expression that is unmatched by any other woman you ever dated? Certainly, all three of those things were true during my first year with my exW. Until other men have dated BPDers, they cannot imagine why the attraction is so big that we are willing to spend a year or two trying to reestablish the blissful conditions of the honeymoon period. Indeed, I communicated with many "Nons" who say they may have great difficulty "settling" for a an emotionally available, stable woman after having fallen in love with a BPDer. Simply stated, a BPDer is very, VERY good when she is splitting you white."

And I was sure split white -- raw.

I am now paying the price.


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## pidge70

I am so sorry for what you have gone through. Just know that some BPD'ers do seek help and actually can get "normal"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

Berilo - WHEN are going to confront?


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## Berilo

8yearscheating said:


> Berilo - WHEN are going to confront?


I will confront as soon as the shock has worn off, I have my bearings, and I can be as (almost) cold and calculating as she is.

Of course, if I can catch them in an incriminating act this weekend, I will take full advantage of that opportunity.


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## Uptown

Berilo, I agree with Pidge that the behavior you describe exhibits most of the classic BPD traits at a strong level. Only a professional can determine whether her traits are so severe as to satisfy 100% of the diagnostic criteria. Yet, even when the traits fall well short of that level, they can easily destroy a marriage and make your life miserable if the BPDer refuses to stay in therapy long enough to learn to manage those traits. I am not a psychologist. Rather, I am just a man who lived with a BPDer W for 15 years. I spent a small fortune taking her to weekly visits over that entire period with six different psychologists and 2 marriage counselors -- all to no avail. 

Based on that experience, my advice to you -- if you decide your W has many strong BPD traits and if she refuses to stay in therapy to address them -- is to get an excellent attorney and get your ducks in a row before telling your W you are divorcing her. All hell will break loose when you tell her. Indeed, she may even have you arrested and thrown into jail, as my exW did to me.


> We used to get along wonderfully. She was so sweet and thoughtful and supportive. I tried to be the same. We were so into each other. We rarely fought, always made up. We had what I thought was a fulfilling sex life.


That is the way nearly all relationships begin with a high functioning BPDer (i.e., person having most BPD traits at a strong level). Because a BPDer has a fragile and unstable sense of who she is, she will mirror all the best aspects of your personality during the infatuation period, which typically lasts up to six months. The result is that this honeymoon period likely will be the most passionate and romantic time of your life (unless, of course, you subsequently date another BPDer). Both of you will be absolutely convinced that you've met your soul mate.


> Move forward a year.... I don’t recognize her any more: she is moody, not so affectionate, and gets angry at me for no apparent reason at all.


When the infatuation evaporates, the BPDer no longer perceives you to be the perfect man who was sent to save her. For this reason, her two great fears (abandonment and engulfment) can no longer be held at bay. They will return, triggering the enormous anger she has been carrying deep inside since early childhood. Because the anger is always there right below the surface, it is easily triggered by an idle comment, a minor infraction, or a glance at another woman lasting one-half second instead of a quarter second. These mood changes, which can occur in 10 seconds, are much different from the typical mood changes caused by depression or bipolar disorder. The latter take a week or two to develop and usually last about two weeks (not the several hours that is typical for BPD temper tantrums).


> She says she can’t talk to me any more. When I say let’s sit down and talk now, or sleep together and talk tomorrow, or go away for the weekend somewhere quiet where we can talk, she dismisses this and tells me I “don’t know how to talk”. She then walks away coldly.


In general, it is impossible to sit down and have a calm, rational discussion about a sensitive matter with a BPDer. Trying to catch her in a "calm mood" is usually pointless because, even when you manage to do so, any mention of a sensitive topic will trigger her anger in 10 seconds -- leaving you trying to reason with an angry child once again.


> There has been a double standard going on too for some time.


A "double standard" is typical behavior for a BPDer. Because a BPDer's emotional development was frozen at about age four, she never learned how to control her emotions or do self-calming. The result is that she will frequently experience such intense feelings that she will be convinced they MUST accurately reflect reality. This is one reason that BPDers have a strong feeling -- just like four year olds do -- of being entitled to special treatment and privileges.


> I think she is a bit of a control freak. We went away for a weekend to another city and spent much of it with some of her friends there... but, when I want to have my friends over for dinner, she protests about the inconvenience.


Because a BPDer fears abandonment, she typically will try to be very controlling of every aspect of her partner's life. This control can be augmented, of course, by isolating you from all your friends and family members (who might not see things her way).


> I am utterly shocked by two things in her behavior: 1. How she can find such fault with me and our marriage. From my perspective, nothing had changed much since we met four years ago and got married two years ago.


Berilo, if your W is a BPDer, you must be content to play one of two roles if you want to remain married to her. Both of those roles are dictated by her strong need to keep thinking of herself as a perpetual victim -- always "the victim." Because that false self image is nearly the only thread of a self image she has, she keeps a death grip on it and will not let it go. She therefore needs to have a man around at all times to validate that false self image.

During the 6 month honeymoon period, you provided that validation admirably by playing the role of "savior on a white horse." Because you were the "savior," she by implication had to be the damsel in distress, i.e., "the victim." That's why she told you -- and she really believed it -- that you were far better than any man she had ever met. And, no doubt, she told you that you were saving her from a long line of BFs who had treated her badly.

When the infatuation evaporated, however, you fell quickly from the pedestal and were no longer regarded as savior. Consequently, there is only one remaining way you could validate her false self image of being "the victim." You must play the role of "perpetrator." That is, you must accept blame for every misfortune befalling her, thereby reinforcing her mistaken notion that she is "the victim."

That, in a nutshell, is one reason she is blaming you for everything. Another reason is that, if she is a BPDer, your W does black-white thinking, wherein she categorizes everyone as "all good" or "all bad." Significantly, she categorizes herself that way too. This means that, if she takes responsibility for making a mistake or having a flaw, she experiences a painful feeling of intense shame while she perceives herself as being "all bad."


> From the fragments of emails and messages I have now seen, she is complaining to this guy about me, my real and supposed shortcomings.


Like I said, you are "the perpetrator." She therefore is probably describing you in much the same way she described her old BFs to you.


> I shake my head at the amateurish, adolescent nature of this affair.... Can't she even be smart about how she has an affair or manages the break-up, or whatever she's doing?


As a group, BPDers don't have a problem with being smart. Indeed, most BPDers I' ve met are way above average in intelligence. Their perception of other peoples' intentions is greatly distorted, however, by the BPD traits. Moreover, their empathy can be greatly impaired much of the time. This is why BPD is called a "thought disorder."


> With regard to marital revisionism, I am aghast at the re-writing of our marriage that I think I am beginning to see here.


Yes, it is commonplace for a BPDer to rewrite history. This occurs because her perception of other people is greatly distorted by her intense feelings. Of course, this happens to all of us when we experience intense feelings. When we are very angry, for example, our perception of others is greatly colored and distorted. Because we know this, we usually know we cannot trust our judgement at such times and therefore delay taking action until we have time to cool down. BPDers, however, usually don't wait because -- having the emotional development of a four year old -- they cannot control their impulses very well.

Berilo, if this discussion rings a bell, I suggest that you read more about BPD traits in Blacksmith's thread. My posts there start at Complicated Marriage Dynamic. I note also that the best selling BPD book (targeted to spouses like you) is _Stop Walking on Eggshells _by Randi Kreger. Yet, if you will be divorcing your W, I suggest that you also read another book by the same author which was published just a few months ago. It is called _Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder. _

Another great resource is the "Leaving" message board at BPDfamily.com -- the largest and most active BPD forum I've found that is targeted exclusively to the partners and spouses of BPDers. At that board, you will get tips and advice from dozens of guys who are going through exactly the same painful mess that you are experiencing. More important, you will get advice from guys who went through the divorce process, which is especially nasty with BPDers because they split their spouses black and treat them like the devil.

Also at BPDfamily.com is a collection of professional articles on BPD. IMO, the best of the bunch is Article 9 at T9 Surviving a Break-up with Someone Suffering with Borderline Personality Disorder - Columbia University, New York. Take care, Berilo.


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## 8yearscheating

Awesome post uptown!!!


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## pidge70

Isn't he great? He's been awesome helping me as a BPD'er. You are awesome too 8!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Uptown

8Years and Pidge, thanks so much for your kind words. Pidge, nice call! I believe you really nailed it. Of course, none of us can know whether Berilo's W has the full blown disorder. I nonetheless believe that Berilo will be fully capable of spotting the red flags -- after reading about the nine BPD traits -- if his W has most of them at a strong level. 

When you've been living with a person for a while, it is easy to spot strong selfishness and grandiosity -- without trying to diagnose Narcissistic PD. It is easy to spot an extremely shy and overly sensitive person -- without diagnosing Avoidant PD. And it is easy to spot the drama queens -- without having a clue about diagnosing Histrionic PD. Likewise, it is easy to spot excessive verbal abuse, temper tantrums, and other strong BPD traits -- without trying to diagnose the full blown disorder.

8Years, I just left a response in your "Hit a Roadblock" thread at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...-reconciliation-need-advise-2.html#post391943.


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## Berilo

Really, I am grateful to all of you, Uptown, 8, Pidge, and everyone else, for this help and support. I'd be an even bigger mess if I hadn't stumbled across you all here. It's difficult to think straight in these circumstances, especially when this stuff builds up slowly, then a few crazy things happen, then she tries to lie/snow/charm you.

I am now starting to see through the haze much more clearly. I hope that I will soon be able to do what I need to do.


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## Berilo

Uptown said:


> Berilo, I agree with Pidge that the behavior you describe exhibits most of the classic BPD traits at a strong level. Only a professional can determine whether her traits are so severe as to satisfy 100% of the diagnostic criteria. Yet, even when the traits fall well short of that level, they can easily destroy a marriage and make your life miserable if the BPDer refuses to stay in therapy long enough to learn to manage those traits.


My "diagnosis" after wondering about this for a year now, the past three months intensively, is that she is indeed a classic BPD case, but with very high functioning (hiding) social capability. But I agree that these traits and conduct are toxic for a happy marriage, whatever the professional diagnosis might be.



Uptown said:


> Based on that experience, my advice to you -- if you decide your W has many strong BPD traits and if she refuses to stay in therapy to address them -- is to get an excellent attorney and get your ducks in a row before telling your W you are divorcing her.


That seems to be the way this is going. I can't imagine based on our previous conversations/arguments she will go to therapy willingly. She is perfect, I am the problem. Once I "learn to communicate", "grow up", etc etc, then things will improve.



Uptown said:


> All hell will break loose when you tell her. Indeed, she may even have you arrested and thrown into jail, as my exW did to me.


I agree that there will be a big explosion when I pull the pin. Fortunately, amid all of her histrionics, I haven't seen any hint of real violence, and I do know she is very conscious of how she is seen by colleagues and friends. Although she complains about her husband to everyone, I think the "embarrassment" of a sudden split/divorce will hurt her more. But I suppose I need to be prepared for everything.



Uptown said:


> When the infatuation evaporates, the BPDer no longer perceives you to be the perfect man who was sent to save her. For this reason, her two great fears (abandonment and engulfment) can no longer be held at bay. They will return, triggering the enormous anger she has been carrying deep inside since early childhood. Because the anger is always there right below the surface, it is easily triggered by an idle comment, a minor infraction, or a glance at another woman lasting one-half second instead of a quarter second.


You've hit the nail on the head, both the fear of engulfment and abandonment. And the simmering, inexplicable anger just below the surface. This makes no logical sense at all -- how can someone fear being abandoned but fear being close at the same time -- but is very real. This is a recipe for eternal loneliness. 

Our first problem, before we got married, was that she pushed me away completely (and nastily) for a week for no reason. I thought it was a bad case of the usual pre-marriage uncertainty many couples go through although I now think it was something worse that that. I think that she realized that if she married someone else would take residence in her home and psyche, which freaked her out.



Uptown said:


> In general, it is impossible to sit down and have a calm, rational discussion about a sensitive matter with a BPDer. Trying to catch her in a "calm mood" is usually pointless because, even when you manage to do so, any mention of a sensitive topic will trigger her anger in 10 seconds -- leaving you trying to reason with an angry child once again.


And fragments of old discussions with marginal relevance get dragged into the conversation, often twisted and distorted.



Uptown said:


> A "double standard" is typical behavior for a BPDer. Because a BPDer's emotional development was frozen at about age four, she never learned how to control her emotions or do self-calming. The result is that she will frequently experience such intense feelings that she will be convinced they MUST accurately reflect reality. This is one reason that BPDers have a strong feeling -- just like four year olds do -- of being entitled to special treatment and privileges.


Wow. There is a reason why she seems very child-like at times. And seems to lack a sense of proportion, balance, or fairness. Her making a nice dinner one night is "equivalent" to me paying for our whole vacation, even though we both make decent salaries (and I make dinner too).



Uptown said:


> Because a BPDer fears abandonment, she typically will try to be very controlling of every aspect of her partner's life. This control can be augmented, of course, by isolating you from all your friends and family members (who might not see things her way).


She is a charming, low-key, absolute control freak. I have tried to be unpredictable lately, and not respond (or respond differently) when she tries to push my buttons or lead me around by the nose. This does not compute, and I can see it confuses and bothers her.



Uptown said:


> Berilo, if your W is a BPDer, you must be content to play one of two roles if you want to remain married to her. Both of those roles are dictated by her strong need to keep thinking of herself as a perpetual victim -- always "the victim." Because that false self image is nearly the only thread of a self image she has, she keeps a death grip on it and will not let it go. She therefore needs to have a man around at all times to validate that false self image.
> 
> During the 6 month honeymoon period, you provided that validation admirably by playing the role of "savior on a white horse." Because you were the "savior," she by implication had to be the damsel in distress, i.e., "the victim." That's why she told you -- and she really believed it -- that you were far better than any man she had ever met. And, no doubt, she told you that you were saving her from a long line of BFs who had treated her badly.
> 
> When the infatuation evaporated, however, you fell quickly from the pedestal and were no longer regarded as savior. Consequently, there is only one remaining way you could validate her false self image of being "the victim." You must play the role of "perpetrator." That is, you must accept blame for every misfortune befalling her, thereby reinforcing her mistaken notion that she is "the victim."
> 
> That, in a nutshell, is one reason she is blaming you for everything.


This is indeed what appears to have happened to me. I was the white knight, and now I am the dog, pig, millstone, punching bag, or whatever. I am going to decline to continue in either role.



Uptown said:


> Another reason is that, if she is a BPDer, your W does black-white thinking, wherein she categorizes everyone as "all good" or "all bad."


That is exactly how she is: everything is cut and dried, good or bad, you only need to push harder or back off. I even tried to explain to her that most things in the world are shades of gray, but only now I see she probably didn't have any idea of what I was talking about.



Uptown said:


> Significantly, she categorizes herself that way too. This means that, if she takes responsibility for making a mistake or having a flaw, she experiences a painful feeling of intense shame while she perceives herself as being "all bad."


I think she has apologized to me sincerely only once or twice since we got married. But maybe not even those. When she does something wrong, and I don't immediately let it go, she says, "I'm sorry, ok? It's over, let's move on." Needless to say, if I do something she doesn't like (or do something momentarily dumb) I never hear the end of it, and it ends up as an infraction on my probation list.



Uptown said:


> Indeed, most BPDers I' ve met are way above average in intelligence. Their perception of other peoples' intentions is greatly distorted, however, by the BPD traits. Moreover, their empathy can be greatly impaired much of the time. This is why BPD is called a "thought disorder."


It's tragic, actually. She is very intelligent, a high functioning professional, but empty inside somehow. She feigns empathy, but I don't think she feels it. She flip-flops in her assessments of her colleagues and friends by the month. She has a non-existent relationship with her family. I don't see a stream of old friends wanting to hang out with her (and me), as is usual. She is probably casting the OM in the role of white knight to get her fix of attention and rescue.

So we have everyone who is one step removed from her thinking she is the absolute greatest person, professional, and casual friend. But there is a telling absence of people who are really close to her.

It must be difficult for a person not to have any solid emotional bearings. I can't imagine not having solid, stable (not usually intense) relationships with family members, close friends and colleagues. That's the world we were meant to live in, and make life worthwhile.

Do BPDers know what they are missing? Do they really think they are "normal"? Doesn't the process of turning one white knight after another into a punching bag cause them to reflect or seek therapy? Or is their self-criticism function so impaired from the beginning that they are doomed to skim along the surface of life, stopping only when smashing into (and damaging) other people's beings?


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## pidge70

I wish you all the best. I am truly sorry for all you've been through.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Berilo

pidge70 said:


> I wish you all the best. I am truly sorry for all you've been through.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thank you, Pidge, for your kind words and support.


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## Berilo

One more thing: at least since I have been watching her with a focused, skeptical lens over the past two months, she is very transparent.

When we are together I can tell when she is texting the OM, or talking to him on the phone, instead of a real colleague or friend I can tell when her story of where she is going and when, or where she was, is not really true. It stinks, really.

Yesterday, she talked to OM on her cell phone while we were at home, three separate times, totalling over an hour. She was obviously guarded in her conversation, but not in her tone. I left the room but stayed close by to listen.

This is weird. Is she so in the "fog" or lacks empathy that she can't see how inappropriate or stupid it is to talk to her outside lover when at home with her husband? How stupid is he thinking that it's ok to call her so often when she tells him she is at home with me? She cut off the calls from him we received in the car, as it would be obvious, but given more space in the house, perhaps she feels easier to move around and conceal?

And the continued adolescent overtones are making me puke. When she started cooing on the phone yesterday, I nearly went into the room and threw her phone out the window. 

Nonetheless, I don't take all this as a direct in-my-face challenge, as she clearly is trying to hide the identity of the caller. But there must be some big dynamic of invulnerability or recklessness at play here. She knows I know about this guy (at least I questioned her about all the calls from him some time ago).

Is she trying to provoke me, or is she just amazingly oblivious? Is this a trait of BPDers too? 

I am resisting being provoked or controlled until I am ready to pull the pin.


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## pidge70

Yes I thought I was "normal." Even after I was diagnosed with BPD and a few other disorders I just thought I needed medicated. I never really stuck with any medication. Most of it made me act and feel like a zombie. 

I didn't feel like I was "missing" anything. I just knew that I wasn't happy and I hated anyone else being happy. I felt like what right do they have to be happy when I'm miserable. 

Like I said, I had to hit rock @ss bottom before I got help. I read a book someone recommended called "I Hate You, Don't Leave Me" and it hit home. I could relate to just about all of it. I cried as I read it. 

Now that I am more self aware I am much better. Am I "normal" yet? I don't think so but, I make a conscious choice to be happy and to treat people the way I would like to be treated. 

I'm glad I could be of some help to you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

Berilo - I know she has issues but you really need to lay out the boundaries and your expectations if you haven't already done so. She may get mad but you need to establish what long term will mean. She also needs to understand that your not going to negotiate on waht you need. She needs to do the work and show the ACTIONS not words if you are to move forward. MC and IC are a must and in her case it MUST be a psychiatrist not a phsycologist so he can adequately deal with the BPD. You should insist on going the second time and it should be required that the MC and IC converse so that the MC can act as a go between on the things he sees and your expectations. Yes her IC is her IC and there to treat her. BUT he has to understand there is a marriage at risk here because of her behavior and hear about her behavior from your perspective. If he refuses, find someone else. Get both going quickly for both of your sake even if your not sure you want to R. And as far as her resisting it, obviously it will do no good to force her. Just explain that this is one way she can show her intentions to R and make the relationship and herself better. If she can't honestly do what is needed WILLINGLY, she is not worth trying to R with.


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## 8yearscheating

Pidge, would you suggest he get that book? Berilo, I would suggest Not Just Friends from Shirley Glass. It will help you to get your head on straight as to how DS behaves and is drawn into this.


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## pidge70

I would suggest he get the book only if he wants to R. Another good one would be "Stop Walking on Eggshells.". 

If his W does have BPD she needs behavior modification and cognitive therapy. Meds can help to some extent with mood swings but, not much. If she truly has BPD she needs help "rewiring" her brain so to speak. 

Giving ultimatums will NOT work. She has to seek help before anything else. Some people never get better. BPD'ers rarely stay in therapy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## morituri

Pidge, what would it take to have Berilo's wife hit rock bottom?


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## pidge70

I'm not sure. You've read my story if you remember. Everyone is different.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## morituri

I know everybody is different but since you are our SME (subject matter expert) on BPD, I thought you might want to share some information that might be common with a lot of BPD that have cheated. Did you husband have any role in helping you hit rock bottom?


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## Chaparral

Berilo said:


> I was wondering how I could have possibly gotten myself into this situation, marrying such a clearly issue-laden woman.
> 
> But things did seem so perfect for the first year. It was exactly like Uptown describes in a post on another thread regarding initial attraction to BPDer:
> 
> "Could the attraction have been her mirroring your personality so perfectly that the two of you were convinced you had met your soul mate? Could it have been the most passionate and greatest sexual experience of your lifetime? Could it have been that childlike quality that gives her a warmth and purity of expression that is unmatched by any other woman you ever dated? Certainly, all three of those things were true during my first year with my exW. Until other men have dated BPDers, they cannot imagine why the attraction is so big that we are willing to spend a year or two trying to reestablish the blissful conditions of the honeymoon period. Indeed, I communicated with many "Nons" who say they may have great difficulty "settling" for a an emotionally available, stable woman after having fallen in love with a BPDer. Simply stated, a BPDer is very, VERY good when she is splitting you white."
> 
> And I was sure split white -- raw.
> 
> I am now paying the price.






You have gotten completely off track. Go back and read your own thread. It seems you have attention deficit disorder your not listening only venting. Pay particular attention to lordmayhem's posts. Get off your a$$ and do something to save your wife. Confront other man and cotact his wife immediately. At this point you look like a willing co-conspirator. If you don't man up you might as well start packing.


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## pidge70

I don't want to thread jack. Some BPD'ers try to fill the hole in them with alcohol, drugs, spending sprees or promiscuity. It is a vicious cycle. 

I cheated on my H and while we were supposedly working it out, he cheated on me. That is what caused me to hit rock bottom. Unlike some stories on here where the LS is the one crying and begging, I was the one doing that. 

Maybe the best thing Berilo can do is start divorce proceedings. It MIGHT serve as her bottoming out enough to seek help.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## pidge70

chapparal said:


> You have gotten completely off track. Go back and read your own thread. It seems you have attention deficit disorder your not listening only venting. Pay particular attention to lordmayhem's posts. Get off your a$$ and do something to save your wife. Confront other man and cotact his wife immediately. At this point you look like a willing co-conspirator. If you don't man up you might as well start packing.


The OM she slept with is divorced.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BigBri

Dude... you gotta get off your ass NOW! What are you waiting for?


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## Uptown

Berilo said:


> This makes no logical sense at all -- how can someone fear being abandoned but fear being close at the same time -- but is very real.


Yes, I know, craving what you most fear is such a paradox that it is difficult to comprehend. But we can often gain some understanding of paradoxes by finding a poetic reference to them using terms and concepts we already understand. An ex-partner (of a BPDer) on another forum provided a poetic description I found very helpful. He wrote, _"When a BPDer talks about intimacy, it's like a vampire talking about sunrise: every one of them wants to see a sunsrise, but they are frightened to because it means death if they do."_

The paradox actually makes perfect sense, however, when we consider the BPDer's delimma -- always having to choose between two evils: moving closer and triggering her fear of engulfment or moving away and triggering her fear of abandonment. The conumdrum, of course, is that the solution for one fear is the very thing triggering the other fear.

This is why, when you are married to a BPDer, a wonderful evening or great weekend often is followed -- the very next morning -- by an argument that she creates out of thin air. Although she does not consciously realize it, she creates the fight in order to get breathing space. Indeed, the push-you-away and pull-you-back cycle you likely have witnessed every week or two is a hallmark of BPD.

Because your W has an unstable fragile self image, any time you draw close in intimacy (real intimacy, not just sex) she will experience engulfment. It is very frightening because she feels like she is being taken over by your strong personality -- like she is evaporating into thin air. To get breathing room, she will push you away. It may happen that same night or the next morning, usually taking the form of her creating an argument out of nothing.

Yet, as you back off to give her space, you will trigger her other great fear, abandonment. So, after her tantrum dies down (they typically last about five hours), she may wait a few hours (or days or weeks) and will then start reeling you back in. Of course, as you draw close, the cycle starts all over again. For 15 years, I kept hunting for the "Goldilocks" position between "too close" and "too far" to avoid triggering both of those fears. I can tell you that, if that safe midpoint position exists at all, it is a knife edge that is continually shifting.


> Our first problem, before we got married, was that she pushed me away completely (and nastily) for a week for no reason. ... I think that she realized that if she married someone else would take residence in her home and psyche, which freaked her out.


I believe you are correct. A woman with a weak, fragile, unstable sense of herself has a tremendous desire to live with a man having a stable personality that can center and ground her -- providing her a sense of normalcy and a sense of direction. Yet, when she gets exactly that, she will feel controlled and dominated and feel like she is loosing the little sense of identity that she has. It is a very frightening feeling. This is why you cannot fix her by loving her. Trying to do so is the equivalent of trying to help a burn patient by hugging him.


> I even tried to explain to her that most things in the world are shades of gray, but only now I see she probably didn't have any idea of what I was talking about.


You likely are correct. As Pidge explains, she felt for decades that her way of thinking was mostly normal. Because a BPDer has been doing the all-or-nothing thinking since early childhood, she typically has no idea that other people do not do such black-white thinking so frequently.


> Do BPDers know what they are missing? Do they really think they are "normal"? Doesn't the process of turning one white knight after another into a punching bag cause them to reflect or seek therapy?


My understanding is that, although the thought distortions (e.g., projection and black-white thinking) are usually invisible to BPDers, they nonetheless are aware that the false image they project is false. Narcissists, in contrast, are so totally out of touch with their real selves that they usually are convinced their false self image is true, which is why they become very indignant with anyone refusing to validate that glorified image.

And, yes, a few BPDers will be sufficiently self aware -- and have sufficient ego strength -- to seek therapy after reflecting on the large number of departed friends. Yet, as Pidge points out, it is rare for that to occur. The ones that do tend to be very low functioning BPDers who are in such severe pain they are forced to confront their illness. 

The vast majority of BPDers, however, are so high functioning that they are able to conceal their BPD traits from business associates, casual friends, and strangers -- because none of those folks pose a threat to their fears of abandonment and engulfment. It is very unusual for a HF BPDer to be willing to enter therapy, much less complete it. Therapist Shari Schreiber says you have a better chance riding to the moon strapped to a banana than ever seeing a BPDer stay in therapy long enough to make a difference. 

This is why spouses and ex-partners (like you and me) so enjoy the rare opportunity to converse with a treated, self-aware BPDer like Pidge. Folks like Pidge are so rare that I've never met one in my private life even though I've met numerous BPDers. Yet, due to the wonders of the Internet, I have conversed with nearly a hundred "self awares" in the past five years. I always find it a joy to do so. After 15 years of living with a woman who could never see the elephant in the room -- and taking her to six psychologists who would never mention the word "elephant" for fear of alarming her (and voiding insurance) -- it is such an unmitigated joy to speak with folks who not only can see the animal but also have decided to stop feeding it.


> It's tragic, actually. She is very intelligent, a high functioning professional, but empty inside somehow.


Yes, many HF BPDers are extremely intelligent and do very well in intellectually demanding professions. A common complaint is that they feel an emptiness inside that leaves them feeling unhappy most of the time. As you found out, it is impossible to fill that void. Moreover, you will not get much appreciation for trying. The lack of any lasting appreciation is largely due to the BPDer's inability to regulate her own emotions, resulting in a daily flood of intense feelings that push aside whatever feeling of appreciation she once had. Hence, trying to build up a store of good will (on which to draw during the bad times) is futile. It is no more productive than building a sand castle beside the sea. It will be washed away by the next tide of feelings flooding her mind.


> So we have everyone who is one step removed from her thinking she is the absolute greatest person, professional, and casual friend. But there is a telling absence of people who are really close to her.


Like I said, a HF BPDer can be outgoing, caring, and generous to casual friends, business associates, and complete strangers. They cannot trigger her two fears. There is no LTR to be abandoned. And there is no intimacy to create engulfment. Those folks, then, never see her dark side. This is why you can expect them to believe whatever terrible things she says about you during the divorce. Ex-spouses and ex-partners typically lose most of the common casual friends.


> It must be difficult for a person not to have any solid emotional bearings. I can't imagine not having solid, stable (not usually intense) relationships with family members, close friends and colleagues.


Yes, it is extremely painful for a BPDer to lose the stable man in her life. What some BPDers have told me is that they don't so much miss the man himself as they do the stability he provided in their lives. This is one reason that BPDers hate to be alone. And it explains why they are so driven to find another man to live with even though they are aware it likely will result in another painful breakup. As you said earlier, Berilo, "it's tragic." I wouldn't wish this illness on my worst enemy.

That said, the illness can only explain the bad behavior, not justify it. It is important that, if your W is a BPDer, she be held fully accountable for her own actions. Doing so likely provides the only opportunity she will have to confront her BPD traits and learn how to manage them. This means that, if you were to continue walking on eggshells so as to keep her in the marriage, you would be harming her by enabling her to continue behaving like a spoiled four year old.


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## Berilo

Thanks to those who are prompting me to confront my wife about the affair immediately. I appreciate the support, and I will do so soon.

I am just working through the fact that this is not a "normal" affair situation, I seem to be dealing with a mental illness. This is not a mere digression or distraction from the "main purpose" of my thread.

I had suspected for the past 6-12 months that there was some serious psychological problem at work here, but I wasn't sure and didn't know how to go about finding out. It wasn't until last week that I saw to my horror that the pieces all fit almost perfectly together in a diagnosis of BPD.

This means, as Uptown and others have so eloquently and helpfully explained, that the usual rules of spousal confrontation and disciplined, principled approach to reconciliation or separation aren't likely to work. As Uptown put it, I need to be prepared for an explosion and a highly erratic counter-attack. I think the odds of reconciliation are low so I must prepare for the worst.


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## BigBri

So... what you're saying is that your wife is cheating because of a _psychological_ issue? I think they're ALL mental when cheating is involved. Her throwing it in your face isn't a psychological thing, it's DISRESPECTFUL.


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## Berilo

Uptown said:


> When the infatuation evaporates, the BPDer no longer perceives you to be the perfect man who was sent to save her. For this reason, her two great fears (abandonment and engulfment) can no longer be held at bay.


Uptown, I just recalled an episode that should have been a RED FLAG to me when I started going out with my wife.

About three weeks after our first date, I received an angry, agitated call from this unknown guy. When I finally returned his call, he said he was her boyfriend and demanded to know why I was screwing around with her. I was dumbfounded.

When I asked her about this, she said she had ended their relationship three months before, and he was just trying to hold on, was the jealous type, etc etc. So I shouldn't worry, and she apologized for the inconvenience.

A month later, she tells me the old boyfriend has hacked into her email accounts, but doesn't seem too fussed about it -- or the fact that he now has a record of our personal correspondence of two months intimate relationship. I cleaned up her drive and the trojan he appears to have planted.

They didn't live together and weren't engaged, but they had a relationship for about two years. She said it wasn't working out with him, for reasons X, Y, and Z, and it was time to move on.

Looking back, I think what happened was: 1) she hit the mark where he was no longer seen as a "white knight"; 2) she complained a lot to him, but didn't actually, definitively break up with him before she started with me -- that accounts for why he called me in an agitated (probably shocked) state; and 3) I heard through a friend of hers a year later that my wife treated this guy badly.

There appears to be a very sad pattern of serial selfishness and cruelty here.

I am just sharing this observation, which just hit me.


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## Berilo

BigBri said:


> So... what you're saying is that your wife is cheating because of a _psychological_ issue? I think they're ALL mental when cheating is involved. Her throwing it in your face isn't a psychological thing, it's DISRESPECTFUL.


I think that my wife has a big problem with marriage and togetherness because of a serious personality disorder. She might also have added to the mix some of the usual garden-variety motivators of infidelity.

And it is all extremely disrespectful.

I agree with your point that, in the first instance, it doesn't matter why she is cheating, the key fact is that she is doing it.

My point is that, if she has a significant personality disorder, the usual "tough love", stick-and-carrot, approach to marriage reconciliation isn't likely to work.


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## the guy

All the more reason to show her the black and white proof of her bad behavior. I understand there maybe other issues (BPD) also at hand, but..........

In my experience I showed my WW the text and pictures that forced the issue. What I mean is something that was so undenialbe and with out any explaination that yes she was in an affair.

I mean going to bed with my W and waking up in the middle of the night to find her gone and then waking up to find her sleeping next to me. Come on, she wakes up likes nothing wrong and when I confront her, its explained away with going to help out a friend. 

She found it unnessesary to wake me and tell me..ok fine why didn't she pick up her cell. Well as this happened several times, there always seemed to be a reason and even when she went out and never came home until the morning...again another reason.

Each time asking if there was another man, and of course there was no one else. I believe it was to horrible for her to face.

But when faced with the reality that she is actualy looking at the unhealthy behavior in front of her own eyes...the ughly text, the pictures confirming her unhealthy and dumb choices she is making under the cover of darkness. As this vampire continues to validate her behavior and convince her to continue, my wife only realises the bad behavior and the awful things she writes about when her husband (me) has to shows her the reality, and explain the consequences to her if she continues.

Only then does the reality hit her like a ton of bricks...... " I didnt mean to write that" or "is that realy me". Yes it is her and she is for a fact behaving in an unhealthy way. Now there is no explaining it no excusses, no were to go but to admit she has a "problem".

I met a guy on this site that went for months watching his W unhealthy behavior and with no way to get proof or admission, and her always explaining her way out of it, no matter how rediculice it sounded. He finaly hired a cheap PI, It was quick and the proof was solid and only then did his wife make an admission that there was a "problem".

Granted you have enough to confront and you propably should, but I just have my experience to give as another perspective in confronting the affair.

I'm sure you can confront and it may be as effective as it can be with what you have, put IMO the slap (figuratively) in the face that hopefully shakes them from there fantasy is the ugly and discietful thing WW will have to *look at* when you confront. Something tangelable that actualy shows there bad behavior with out explaination or rationalization for what they are doing.

When I showed my WW the text, the pictures, the amount of text, the journel I kept with her coming and goings, and my sons report card, she just cried.

My confrontation plan worked great, she owns her part in an unhealthy marriage, and with that admission we both can now move on to the next step. Both is the key word here. Now that she (litterally) sees her unhealthy behavior she has made the choice to to change for the better.


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## pidge70

If his wife has BPD, he needs to plan his strategy. What worked for you would not work in his case.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## the guy

P-
Yes I aggree and the main thing here is use this form to come up with the best game plan for the situation.

My case is just a case...a perspective that can be added or deleteded according to his confrontation plan.

I'm just the_guy I have nothing to offer but my experience and if it doesn't fit his case then hopefully another person reading his thread will see my experience as helpfull.

My suggestion is only a suggestion, B- will know when and how to confront. I believe we've given him lots of ammo.


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## Chaparral

pidge70 said:


> The OM she slept with is divorced.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


"By the way, the colleague in question has apparently had a very rocky marital history. He and his wife separated two years ago, but he returned last year because of their kids. So I am guessing it wouldn't be difficult to pry him loose again if he had a good incentive on his hands."

I took this to mean the couple was back together. As far as the BPD I guess I'm missing the difference between her and any other cheaters described on these forums. She seems very stereotypical to me. Could you list the differences?


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## BigBri

> As far as the BPD I guess I'm missing the difference between her and any other cheaters described on these forums.


I'm of the same mind. Whatever _strategy_ he has in mind makes no difference, in the context of exposing her as a cheater. Strategy comes in the _aftermath_ of exposure-- whether to _stay_ or _leave_. You need to call her on it already... you're just prolonging it.


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## the guy

Is he prolonging it b/c he's affriad, I think not. He's planing and theres nothing wrong with that. He will figure out the most effective why to confront, and if his W chooses to continue the A then he can expose.
Exposing to soon can push her away, confront first and see were she goes from there. She could still deny and any exposeure before confronting will lead to him coming out the jealouse, crazy, bad husband.

Again if he can stand it, waiting and getting solid proof is best to have, IMO


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## Uptown

chapparal said:


> As far as the BPD I guess I'm missing the difference between her and any other cheaters described on these forums. She seems very stereotypical to me. Could you list the differences?


Chapparal, I described many of the differences in my post #52 above (at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/29373-distressed-3.html#post391827). All types of individuals -- some of whom who are emotionally stable and healthy -- are capable of cheating under the right circumstances. Those cheaters who have strong BPD traits typically are emotionally unstable, have difficulty trusting, have a weak and fragile self image, have a great fear of abandonment and engulfment, and have a distorted perception of other peoples intentions. These problems are so serious that they can easily destroy a marriage (and entire families) on their own, without any cheating whatsoever.

Hence, if Berilo's W has strong BPD traits, as he believes, she has problems FAR more difficult to deal with than cheating. She has severe damage to her emotional core that nobody in the world can fix. She is the only person who can begin to undo that damage by learning how to manage her BPD traits -- a process that would take weekly therapy for several years at the very least. Yet, because she is refusing to seek therapy or take responsibility for her destructive behavior, Berilo's only real option -- if she is a BPDer -- is to carefully plan his departure and eventually announce the divorce. That's why Pidge said above that the usual options for dealing with a cheating spouse have no chance of working with a BPDer.


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## the guy

The key word here is "as he believes" 

I'm still in the group that it follows the affair script and should be dealt with the usual options as most WW.

Again if there are better option in dealing with cheaters with BPD then maybe thats the safest bet? So if Berilo's W has PBD, does this need to be addressed first while she continues the affair?

But again thats just me.... we all know Berilo will have the final say in how he confronts his wife. I just hope he can show her some solide proof that will wake her @ss up. Something she can see and not just be accused of.


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## MrQuatto

Berilo, I have been folliowng your thread for a couple of days here. 

In an abstract manner, I wish to tell you what I see going in here. 

I see a man who is so anguished and in disbelief of what has happened, he is spending every ounce of resource on any possible reason why this may have happened. All the while, his marriage slips farther and farther into affairland. 

So what if you find this magic bullet you seek? It still will not STOP the affair. Until you do that, nothing will change. At this point, the "WHY" doesn't matter, it is the "What" you need to deal with. If that magic bullet comes out during R, then grab it and deal with it head on. However, until you confront and begin creating consequences for her to feel as a result of this, there is no hope of recovery. It is time for a hard bout of self reflection. 

DO YOU WANT THIS MARRIAGE OR NOT? If no, then simply cut your losses and move on. The why no longer matters because the what doesn't matter.

If YES, then get busy exposing, confronting and starting the steps outlined by so many before on this thread. Until you make THAT committment, nothing will change, no matter what hypothesis, what ideas, what beliefs or what excuses you come up with.

Q~


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## the guy

good post MrQ


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## MrQuatto

the guy said:


> good post MrQ


:smthumbup: Thx 

Sometimes, even a blind squirrel finds a nut 
:lol:

Q~


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## BigBri

He has enough evidence already... as Quatto was saying... _what_ magic bullet are you looking for??? You _know_ she's cheating already... do you want to catch them in the act, or something?


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## the guy

My thought, well my experience is that when you can *show* them something so unappropriate that there is no way to dismiss it, it has a profound effect on the DS fantasy.
IMO any evidence is more of a statement of fact rather then an acusation.

It was my understanding there was no evidence, did I miss something?


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## smartyblue

Eli-Zor said:


> You have enough to out him to his wife and if you know who employs him. He is likely to be using company time to conduct the affair , and no doubt company assets to send mails and/or a company paid hotel room.
> 
> Out him to his wife, they are all unhappily married , supposedly, as is your wife according to her. Do not tell your wife, expose and wait , if she changes her behaviour she is still I'm contact. Be decisive and act fast.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


WHOA! Careful with this! Involving his wife may be dangerous to her and to you! You do not know who you are dealing with! And I would be careful exposing his and her extra marital affair to co-workers. If he loses his job and wife he may become violent. 

I have been EXACTLY where you are 7 years ago. I purchased tracking software to see what my husband was doing in the computer. I was devastated but I realized this: he wanted out of our marriage. And I decided that fighting for something that was dead was a waste of time. He didn't love me anymore. Why would I fight to stay in a marriage with someone who didn't love me? As much as it hurt, I had to let him go, but I never made a scene, didn't contact his job or the new woman. 

Do not cause drama by contacting OM or Mrs. OM. Your problem is with your wife. And she is the only person you need to contact. Here is my advice on what to do with her:

1) When you talk to her, only ask questions and only relay facts.
2) Do not talk about your feelings. You need to remain unemotional. You can't yell or show weakness. 
3) Control the conversation and ask tell her what you want.
Fidelity or she needs to pack up and leave. 
4) Be calm and matter of fact. No tears, no whining, no begging. She made a choice to cheat. It is up to you to guide the final conversation. 

Sweetie, she has disrespected you. I don't believe she loves you enough to salvage this relationship. You will never be able to trust her again, will you? If you can, is she the woman you really want to cuddle with after she has cuddled with another man in your house? 

I'm sorry you are experiencing this pain. I know how you feel and you deserve someone you can trust and laugh with. Grow some sack and take control of the conversation that I know you don't want to have. You can do it!


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## BigBri

He could easily pull out all the phone records with frequency of calls and texts... I think that should be enough, right?


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## the guy

No, "were just friends" or "it work related stuff"

My WW had a sh*t load of text it was hard to figure her flavor for the day was. I wanted to make sure there was absolutely no way to explain her way out of it. I used exact names and places that I found doing my investigation. I new more about some of the OM's then she did.

In a way I agree with confronting now, but what he has is speculation and it sucks but the magic bullet sure sweetens (for lack of a better term) the confrontation.


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## MrQuatto

Berilo said:


> In terms of hard evidence, not much, but enough:
> 
> 1. A text from OM on her cell. ("I miss you, my love", etc.)
> 2. Lots of calls/text from OM's name on her cell phone record until two weeks ago, then stopped suddenly and then two other names appeared (including the one she hung up on twice in my presence in the car).
> 3. An email in her trash that she hadn't cleared from a month ago to OM asking if he might want to come by, snuggle and watch a movie with her. Which happened to be the day after I left town on a four-day business trip. (I found this when she forgot to log off her account and fell asleep. A dagger through my heart.)
> 
> This is enough objective evidence to make me certain I am not crazy or jealous or imagining things. But the pattern of furtive conduct -- hiding in the bathroom with the door shut too often, locking down and jealously guarding her cell phones, unexplained or inconsistent absences or lapses, finding total fault with me, being indifferent to my well-being (other than formulaically), not being engaged in our home renovation and vacation plans -- is actually a bigger sign.
> 
> I need to find a better paper and voice trail to back it up.
> 
> Oh, by the way, I have confirmed that OM is married, but "unhappily". He has known my wife for many years and is a "peer" of hers in the profession. He lives in another city a few hours away but comes to work in the same relatively small office as she is in two days a week (stays over a night or two, without his family, of course). So he's a perfect fling for her: he's available every week, "understands her", and is really eager to find some lovin'.
> 
> I have never met him, but I hear he is a real animated guy. I think he gushes all over her. I don't "gush", but I am a warm person who frequently expressed my love and appreciation for my wife. I think she is mistaking flash for substance here.
> 
> I can almost hear what she's saying to him: "Oh, OM, you are so fun and easy to talk to. You understand me. We can talk about everything. And you're so hot! I can't wait to get more! I can't talk to my husband. He's reserved. He is a stick-in-the-mud, is only interested in [whatever]. And he argues all of the time with me. I think he's defensive about everything. I actually think he's screwing his [secretary/dentist/neighbor/whoever] on the side, you know. But only in the daytime, 'cause he usually falls asleep quickly at night. How fun is that?"
> 
> Let's mark this prediction and see how right I am about the dialogue when I find out more.


I would think this evidence he posted would be enough to confront. I know more is better but if he is not willing to do the VAR, KEYLOGGER, TXT PRINT OUT, then what else is left? 

Granted the request of the texts is only good if he is on the account as well but right now there is nothing but limbo as far as the eye can see if th VAR and Key Logger are not deployed at least.

Q~


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## BigBri

^More than enough, if you ask me. I guess he wants "concrete" proof, though. I just don't see the point of having to hide behind corners listening-in on her conversations with OM. I wouldn't be able to put-up with the blatant disrespect... call me crazy.


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## the guy

I stand corrected.

Even though they were "just joking" ;-)

What sucks is it stopped, most likely deeper under ground. but the way Berilo's wife was acting the other day, would have been a good day to confront. But that time has past and most likely its getting tough and tougher to handle for him.

I still think there is a bigger smoking gun its just a matter of taking the time to find it, but again the affair will grow at the same time.


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## Berilo

the guy said:


> I still think there is a bigger smoking gun its just a matter of taking the time to find it, but again the affair will grow at the same time.


Given what I now know about my wife's condition and her conduct, I don't want to go for reconciliation: I want to pull the plug on this marriage. 

I am going to get some excellent proof before I do -- for me to be able set the record absolutely straight, as well as for whatever formal or legal value it might have. 

I am also planning my exit so I am as protected as possible and my anguish is reduced.

And yes, I am in the process of gathering this proof, but exactly how I won't outline here. Thanks to everyone for their very helpful suggestions.


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## pidge70

How are you holding up?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Berilo

pidge70 said:


> How are you holding up?


Thanks, Pidge, for your concern.

I am feeling awful, really. I can't think of too much else than this situation, it weighs very heavily on me. I have found some calm at work this week, which has helped. One of our groups is working late on a project tonight, with pizza brought in, so I am just going to hang around with them and help out so I don't have to go home until about 10:00. Yes -- someone is actually, truly "working late"!

Atmosphere at home is awkward but not tense. I think she is oblivious to what I already know and what I am collecting on the affair. I haven't looked carefully yet at what information I am getting, as it hurts very much what I have already seen. I will look at it Monday when I can take the afternoon off. If if give her some space on the weekend, she'll probably inadvertently give me everything else I need.

I am seeing a lawyer tomorrow.


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## Chaparral

Good luck, stay strong, but most of all pray. So sorry for your situation and I am praying for you too. It may be to early to say but all the men I know that have truly let go have all ended up much better than before. One sixty year old has had several break ups over the years and is finally getting married again with no regrets at all. Its going to be tough but worth it.


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## 8yearscheating

Berilo - I STRONGLY SUGGEST YOU NOT MAKE LONG TERM DECISIONS. You are in shock and guessing at what is wrong is with her. We are not psychiatrists and neither are you. BPD may be the root issue, MAYBE NOT. You are reacting to pain and fear. You need to confront and see what happens. She may be fully willing to do everything necessary to make your marriage work and mean it. Do not let your anger, fear and what little you know so far make your decisions.


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## ing

I just read your thread. You have been given some great advice. 
Follow it. 
The position you are in now is limbo. This is by far the most painful place to be.
Confront your wife with the evidence that you have. It is ample. 
Ask her what she wants to do. Set your boundaries.

That is all you have to do at this stage. But, please. Just do it.


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## Berilo

I now have lots of stuff on the record. I am now absolutely certain about what is going on. She won't be able to deny her way out of this now -- although I am sure she will try.

I will confront her this weekend.


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## 8yearscheating

Keep us posted. Stay calm don't let anger overwhelm you. And DON't make long term decisions or statements yet. Just state how you feel.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Uptown

Berilo, thanks for the update. Please be very careful. Although you have not seen her become physically violent in the past, an emotionally unstable woman is capable of acting in ways you never thought possible. My exW, for example, simply amazed me. Like your W, my exW never was physically violent but she did have an explosive temper tantrum in which she called the police and had me arrested on a bogus charge. A BPDer has full control over her actions even when throwing a hissy fit. She can be in such a rage for an hour and, then, when the police arrive, instantly transform into the meek, distraught "victim" she wants to portray. I therefore wish you the very best, Berilo.


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## MrQuatto

Berilo, osrry it has come to be true. You have great advice here already. Read through and plan a course of action. There are also a number of other great threads. You aren't alone, there are dozens going through the same thing. 

We are here for you and willing to help. Use this to ask questions, get advice and vent. that's what we're here for 

Q~


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## Berilo

Well, I finally did it and confronted her last night. It didn't happen in the way I expected, but it's done.

Anyway, I had gathered more than enough information, including recordings and emails, about her affair. It is so blatant it is also ridiculous. Yesterday, after dinner, she received a call and went to take it in the bathroom -- in hushed tones.

I don't know why, and it probably wasn't the right thing to do, but I wondered what would happen if the situation were reversed? So an hour later, I called myself on my personal cell from my business cell. I picked it up, walked out to the balcony and pretended to talk in hushed tones. When she followed me in, I said "Have to go, and hung up."

She exploded, demanding to know who I was talking to! (Wow! On the first "mysterious" call! I have suffered about 100!) I told her "nobody", which was true, and it got worse. She pried my cell out of my hands (no problem, nothing to hide), I went to take a shower. When I came out, she was on her Blackberry, so I returned the favor and pried it out of her hands. She was texting the OM, who was listed by name, and saying she loved him and if she married him she'd be the happiest woman in the world. He said something to the same effect.

That was the signal for my declaration. I told her I knew she was having an affair, I had lots of proof, and it was over. I started to pack my bags, as I had been preparing to move to our bigger and nicer house we are building (it's 85% finished).

She blew up, starting to accuse me of all kinds of awful things (none of which has any truth), and demanded that I return her cell. I said yes, once I had seen all the messages. She responded by smashing my cell on the floor. I did the same thing with hers, and kept the chip. (I don't care about mine, there's nothing there.)

As I was taking my bags out of the apartment, she took my briefcase, which had my laptop, and tossed it out of the 12th floor window to the (unoccupied) terrance below. I did the same with her purse, and left, not before she gave me a good whack on the head with the big television remote. Ouch!

We both went downstairs to find our stuff. Mine was stuck on a second floor terrace, and I might not be able to get it. It's probably a wreck anyway. Most of the laptop files are backed up at work, so it's not a total loss.

Her purse, however, was open, and all the stuff in it went flying -- and the wind was up, so it scattered it everywhere. I helped her pick up a few things, determined that I couldn't find any more (including my briefcase), and said a quick good-bye.

I got into a taxi 10 minutes later. The new house isn't very comfortable yet, almost no furniture, but it was quiet and peaceful.

I wish it hadn't happened this way, but it did, and Uptown was right on that she became this ferocious monster.

I have had a few items of good luck in what I took and how I left, which I won't post here. But one of them is that I had accidentally left my VAR on -- it recorded the whole thing. I just listened to it this morning -- she sounds like a raving maniac, while I am just expressing disappointment and the usual bitterness of being betrayed. (I have been living with this for so long, I don't have the anger that I might have had a few months ago.) This recording could come in very handy if, as Uptown warns, she escalates the action.

I am changing the locks on the new house and seeing my lawyer again on Tuesday.


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## Shaggy

Ok now when are you contacting the OMW? Do it as soon as you can before they can do damage control.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## the guy

B-
So after the blame shifting you mentioned and the a little history rewrite, along with no remorse whats so ever, you still need to go to the next step.
Evidence=check
Confrontation=check
EXPOSURE=


So there was no admission, it happens, now is the time to make this affair as difficult as possible by exposing it to a small group;OMW, W's family, and if its work related then employeer HR dept.

Making this A uncomfrotable will bring reality crashing down on them. So please take this next step.


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## pidge70

Berilo said:


> Well, I finally did it and confronted her last night. It didn't happen in the way I expected, but it's done.
> 
> I had to wait a few weeks before I dropped the bomb, because my uncle had a stroke and I am his closest relative. (He's ok but in hospital. I couldn't deal with two family crises at the same time.)
> 
> Anyway, I had gathered more than enough information, including recordings and emails, about her affair. It is so blatant it is also ridiculous. Yesterday, after dinner, she received a call and went to take it in the bathroom -- in hushed tones.
> 
> I don't know why, and it probably wasn't the right thing to do, but I wondered what would happen if the situation were reversed? So an hour later, I called myself on my personal cell from my business cell. I picked it up, walked out to the balcony and pretended to talk in hushed tones. When she followed me in, I said "Have to go, and hung up."
> 
> She exploded, demanding to know who I was talking to! (Wow! On the first "mysterious" call! I have suffered about 100!) I told her "nobody", which was true, and it got worse. She pried my cell out of my hands (no problem, nothing to hide), I went to take a shower. When I came out, she was on her Blackberry, so I returned the favor and pried it out of her hands. She was texting the OM, who was listed by name, and saying she loved him and if she married him she'd be the happiest woman in the world. He said something to the same effect.
> 
> That was the signal for my declaration. I told her I knew she was having an affair, I had lots of proof, and it was over. I started to pack my bags, as I had been preparing to move to our bigger and nicer house we are building (it's 85% finished).
> 
> She blew up, starting to accuse me of all kinds of awful things (none of which has any truth), and demanded that I return her cell. I said yes, once I had seen all the messages. She responded by smashing my cell on the floor. I did the same thing with hers, and kept the chip. (I don't care about mine, there's nothing there.)
> 
> As I was taking my bags out of the apartment, she took my briefcase, which had my laptop, and tossed it out of the 12th floor window to the (unoccupied) terrance below. I did the same with her purse, and left, not before she gave me a good whack on the head with the big television remote. Ouch!
> 
> We both went downstairs to find our stuff. Mine was stuck on a second floor terrace, and I might not be able to get it. It's probably a wreck anyway. Most of the laptop files are backed up at work, so it's not a total loss.
> 
> Her purse, however, was open, and all the stuff in it went flying -- and the wind was up, so it scattered it everywhere. I helped her pick up a few things, determined that I couldn't find any more (including my briefcase), and said a quick good-bye.
> 
> I got into a taxi 10 minutes later. The new house isn't very comfortable yet, almost no furniture, but it was quiet and peaceful.
> 
> I wish it hadn't happened this way, but it did, and Uptown was right on that she became this ferocious monster.
> 
> I have had a few items of good luck in what I took and how I left, which I won't post here. But one of them is that I had accidentally left my VAR on -- it recorded the whole thing. I just listened to it this morning -- she sounds like a raving maniac, while I am just expressing disappointment and the usual bitterness of being betrayed. (I have been living with this for so long, I don't have the anger that I might have had a few months ago.) This recording could come in very handy if, as Uptown warns, she escalates the action.
> 
> I am changing the locks on the new house and seeing my lawyer again on Tuesday.



I am sorry it came to that. I also knew that she would most likely get violent if she has BPD. Sounds like how I've reacted almost to the letter. 

I hope you realize you did nothing wrong. If she has BPD she has to get psychiatric intervention. That is on her. She is a broken person and will be till she seeks help. You would never have been able to "fix" her. 

I wish you all the best.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## the guy

One more thing B-
I thought the set up was ingenious. Well played with fake call, well played.

I couldn't think of a better set up to the confrontation.

I'm sorry it went south, but who would of thought your W would be dumb enought to start something and not expect the same thing to happen to her.

Please do tell, what was her reaction when she saw that it was your own # on the own cell? Why in the hell would she immediately make a call to OM in front of you? please clarify.


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## Berilo

pidge70 said:


> I am sorry it came to that. I also knew that she would most likely get violent if she has BPD. Sounds like how I've reacted almost to the letter.
> 
> I hope you realize you did nothing wrong. If she has BPD she has to get psychiatric intervention. That is on her. She is a broken person and will be till she seeks help. You would never have been able to "fix" her.
> 
> I wish you all the best.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Thanks so much, Pidge, for your support over the past few months. I was really surprised how violent she got, at least compared to her normal state. Like a switch got flipped or something. And for little reason, me being coy about one quick phone call.


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## Uptown

Berilo, thanks for your latest update. That went amazingly WELL for a divorce announcement with a BPDer. She didn't have you arrested and neither of you was seriously hurt physically. I therefore am very happy for you that this stage of the divorce (i.e., the announcement and separation) is behind you. 

I agree with Pidge that you did nothing wrong. On the contrary, you did so many things right. Having your W's temper tantrum recorded may prove useful in court because, as I've said, you won't be able to prove she has strong BPD traits by bringing in a psychologist. Like TheGuy, I sure would have liked to see the expression on her face when she realized you had only called yourself. That was icing on the cake! You did well, Berilo. Very very well!


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## Berilo

the guy said:


> One more thing B-
> I thought the set up was ingenious. Well played with fake call, well played.
> 
> I couldn't think of a better set up to the confrontation.


I just felt like it after seeing her do it once too often!



the guy said:


> I'm sorry it went south, but who would of thought your W would be dumb enought to start something and not expect the same thing to happen to her.


Maybe Uptown and Pidge can help me here, but she's not a big believer in a balanced relationship. She can stay out to all hours, but if I have to work past 8:00 pm, she gives me heck. She can talk for hours at the dinner table on her cell to friends and colleagues, but if I take an urgent call I had been waiting for, then I am some awful husband.

She has a "nobody controls me" but "I need to control you" type of attitude. Is this a common feature of BPD?



the guy said:


> Please do tell, what was her reaction when she saw that it was your own # on the own cell? Why in the hell would she immediately make a call to OM in front of you? please clarify.


She said that I had obviously deleted the number of the supposed other person. When I said, let's get the phone records, she said "I am not interested in phone records, I am talking about your conduct". Like, ????

She didn't make the Blackberry messenger texts in front of me, I went to take a shower, and came out early and heard the repeated pings late on a Friday night, so I knew it was him. I surprised her and pulled it out from her hand. Love notes, caught red-handed.

She does seem to think that she can get away with a lot, and I won't notice somehow. An air of superiority and invincibility somehow.


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## joe kidd

Berilo said:


> She has a "nobody controls me" but "I need to control you" type of attitude. Is this a common feature of BPD?


 Yes. Yes it is. You are put in "no win" situations. Whatever path you choose is wrong. Put up a fight, you are an a$$. Let her have her way, you don't care enough about her talk about things. Like Pidge says if she never becomes self aware there will always be problems.


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## the guy

Thanks, it makes sence " I'm super women I can do no wrong"

I quess you wont see any admission from this type of person, and as we all have read here at TAM, there has to be an admission to move forward in the M. So sorry bro, I don't see this marriage happening until .................wait she won't.

Sorry bro, I hope she gets help but prepare to protect your self with a divorce.


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## Berilo

Uptown said:


> Berilo, thanks for your latest update. That went amazingly WELL for a divorce announcement with a BPDer. She didn't have you arrested and neither of you was seriously hurt physically. I therefore am very happy for you that this stage of the divorce (i.e., the announcement and separation) is behind you.
> 
> I agree with Pidge that you did nothing wrong. On the contrary, you did so many things right. Having your W's temper tantrum recorded may prove useful in court because, as I've said, you won't be able to prove she has strong BPD traits by bringing in a psychologist. Like TheGuy, I sure would have liked to see the expression on her face when she realized you had only called yourself. That was icing on the cake! You did well, Berilo. Very very well!


Thanks, Uptown. I don't feel I did very well at all, given that this is a lose-lose situation, and I saw yet another very unattractive facet of my soon-to-be ex. I have never before been in a confrontation/argument where there is more than a few doors slammed, minor objects tossed, or dramatic (but not harmful) clasping or grabbing or pinning. Funny that after she smashed my cell phone, she tore it into bits. And she focused on my briefcase laptop to throw out of a high apartment window. And started to hit me, including with the tv remote.

A lot of pent-up anger and violence in a relatively petite woman. But no "we have a problem, we're both angry, let's sit down and talk about it".




Uptown said:


> Having your W's temper tantrum recorded may prove useful in court because, as I've said, you won't be able to prove she has strong BPD traits by bringing in a psychologist.


Actually, given the location of my VAR in my stuff, the sounds of her raving are punctuated by the equally loud sounds of zippers closing on 4 suitcases! It's quite a soundtrack!


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## pidge70

Unfortunately that control thing was very common with me. It is so encompassing. Even when everything was falling around me, as long as I was the cause of it...I was still in control. I know it makes absolutely no sense to a "normal" person. Hell, it makes no sense to me in hindsight.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## the guy

So the sound track sounds something like this;
" You son of ZIIIIIIIIP, how dare you ZIIIIIIIIP, I will ZIIIIIIIIIP, if you don't ZIIIIIIIIP the hell out of here" LOL

I hope my attempt of humor cheers you up, Make no mistake I am no making light of your pain, I've been there, just trying to do the impossible by making you feel a little better.


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## Berilo

the guy said:


> So the sound track sounds something like this;
> " You son of ZIIIIIIIIP, how dare you ZIIIIIIIIP, I will ZIIIIIIIIIP, if you don't ZIIIIIIIIP the hell out of here" LOL
> 
> I hope my attempt of humor cheers you up, Make no mistake I am no making light of your pain, I've been there, just trying to do the impossible by making you feel a little better.


Yes, the soundtrack is almost that good!

Thanks, theguy, for the laughs -- I could use them! Yes, I thought it was amusing too when I heard it today.


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## Berilo

I should have mentioned that she didn't want me to leave, tried to get me back from the taxi curb. (Not begging, just saying what was I doing, with a threat that I can't come back if I leave.)

So, I thought, let me get this straight: you have just given me (additional) conclusive proof of your affair, you have smashed my cell phone, thrown my laptop out the window, and whacked me over the head with the tv remote. And you think I am going to stay? Why would ANYONE put up with that, if just to get themselves out of the situation for the night (let alone forever)?


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## joe kidd

Berilo said:


> I should have mentioned that she didn't want me to leave, tried to get me back from the taxi curb. (Not begging, just saying what was I doing, with a threat that I can't come back if I leave.)
> 
> So, I thought, let me get this straight: you have just given me (additional) conclusive proof of your affair, you have smashed my cell phone, thrown my laptop out the window, and whacked me over the head with the tv remote. And you think I am going to stay? Why would ANYONE put up with that, if just to get themselves out of the situation for the night (let alone forever)?


I would get "leave just leave!" then when I would she would call me a POS for abandoning his family. :scratchhead:


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## Shaggy

Berlioz, be careful. She just might be going to the cops and filing false reports on you. Get yourself some legal help ASAP. Do not see her alone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Uptown

Berilo said:


> I should have mentioned that she didn't want me to leave.


Berilo, that paradox -- of her blaming you for every misfortune but still not wanting you to leave -- is so characteristic of untreated BPDers that the title of the #2 best-selling BPD book is called "I Hate You, Don't Leave Me." Because her self image is so fragile and unstable, what she desperately needs is to have a strong personality around who will serve as her "emotional anchor" -- i.e., will ground and center her. Hence, don't be surprised when, in a few months, she realizes that her emotional anchor is easily and quickly replaced -- a process made all the easier by her problems with "object constancy" that we discussed earlier. Also, I agree with Shaggy that it would be prudent to have a witness along if you have to be in the same room with her again.


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## pidge70

Berilo said:


> I should have mentioned that she didn't want me to leave, tried to get me back from the taxi curb. (Not begging, just saying what was I doing, with a threat that I can't come back if I leave.)
> 
> So, I thought, let me get this straight: you have just given me (additional) conclusive proof of your affair, you have smashed my cell phone, thrown my laptop out the window, and whacked me over the head with the tv remote. And you think I am going to stay? Why would ANYONE put up with that, if just to get themselves out of the situation for the night (let alone forever)?



Again, sounds like me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calif_hope

B....
Sorry your going through this......

You need to go ASAP to police dept. to file a police report, not to press charges but to document your side if the event before anything else happens or she beats you to the punch with a made up story that places you in the bad light .... Good you have the VAR but hold that bit of info back until you have to share....

She is not well, not far fetch in my eyes in light of what you shared to see her harming herself and tell the police you did it to her.....she is going to want to get the upper hand back.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Berilo

She called me last night, asking to come by and pick me up and take me home.

She didn't say she was sorry, she didn't say we had a lot to talk about, she didn't say "marriage isn't easy", or "I don't think I've been as good to you as I should have", or some other reasonable opener to an honest conversation. She just asked if I was ready to tell her who called me Friday night (on my self-call)! I repeated that it was one of my cells to another, and we could get the phone records to prove it. She said she is not interested in documents. (!!!!)

She then asked to come pick me up. I said no thanks.

This is really weird. Is this pathetic effort at attacking me (again) for a non-existant minor transgression her way of deflecting the conversation away from her grotesquely blatant and serious conduct -- or does she really not see the enormous imbalance here?

Once again, it's like the murderer who, when arrested, tells the cop, "you can't arrest me, you've got a parking ticket!". Have these BPD people no moral compass at all?


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## pidge70

Some of us do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## joe kidd

It's her way of keeping you on the defensive so she is still "in control". In her mind what you did (even though it was nothing) justifies what she is doing. She gets to be what she always sees herself as. The wronged one.


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## Berilo

joe kidd said:


> It's her way of keeping you on the defensive so she is still "in control". In her mind what you did (even though it was nothing) justifies what she is doing. She gets to be what she always sees herself as. The wronged one.


That has to be it, because she has displayed almost zero empathy for me. I don't she understands how my heart sank (again) when I saw those love messages on her phone on Friday. Does she think that is nothing? I have never had an affair, but if I did, and my wife found a cache of love messages from me to another woman, I would feel enormously guilty for the hurt I caused her in just seeing them.

An idea that hit me is that maybe this guy IS nothing, and that she's just torquing him up for the attention from him. The love messages to him have been so emotional and over-the-top that maybe he's just the latest victim of her "love-bombing". Of course he is responding to the attention in a very positive way to her.


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## Berilo

pidge70 said:


> Some of us do.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sorry, Pidge. I am sure that is the case. I am just desperate here to understand what is happening and why.

B


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## pidge70

BPD'ers generally have no empathy for others. Classic symptom/sign. I can't begin to say I know for a fact what she is thinking but, I can tell you what I would be thinking. 

Her transgression is not a priority if she even feels she did wrong. Your fake phone call on the other hand just proves to her what she probably felt all along. You would fail her in some way. I'm not saying you did at all, just saying that is how she is most likely justifying it all in her mind. 

You will most likely never be able to understand what is happening or why. You will drive yourself insane trying though. I am sorry you have had to deal with such a person. 

I am not defending her by any means but, you need to realize if she truly is BPD, she had no choice in the matter. No one in there right mind would want to be a BPD'er. There is nothing you could have done that would have ever been right. It is as Joe put it, a no-win situation. Your wife's actions are not because of you or anything you may have or have not done. Her actions are all on her BPD or not. 

I truly hope you can find some peace. Be wary though, it will get worse before it gets better. Protect yourself legally and make sure you keep all texts and or emails from her. If you speak to her in person, carry a VAR. She will get nasty and vindictive. 

Take care of yourself.


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## Uptown

Berilo said:


> Have these BPD people no moral compass at all?


I agree with Pidge and Joe. My experience is that BPDers, as a group, do not lack good morals. What they lack, instead, is emotional stability. This deficiency results in their frequently experiencing very intense feelings that distort their perception of your intentions. Hence, when a BPDer is splitting you black, she perceives you to be Hitler and will treat you accordingly.

Moreover, for high functioning BPDers, the distorted perception usually occurs only with respect to her loved ones because they pose a threat to her two great fears: abandonment and engulfment. In contrast, strangers and casual friends pose no threat because there is no close LTR to be abandoned and no intimacy to trigger engulfment. This is why -- as I noted earlier -- a BPDer can be generous and caring all day long to strangers and then go home at night to abuse the very people who love her.


> She can stay out to all hours, but if I have to work past 8:00 pm, she gives me heck. She can talk for hours at the dinner table on her cell to friends and colleagues, but if I take an urgent call I had been waiting for, then I am some awful husband.


The use of such double standards -- one set for her and another set of rules for you -- is typical of BPDers. If they are untreated, their emotional development is stuck at about age four, so they are very limited in their ability to protect their fragile egos. They are restricted to using the primitive ego defenses available to a young child. These include denial, projection, double standards, and black-white thinking.

Although most BPDers I've met are very intelligent people, trying to reason with them goes nowhere because it is extremely painful and shameful for them to acknowledge making a mistake. Hence, when you have them in a corner, they usually will not hesitate to try to lie their way out of it. Reasoning does not work because, when they are arguing with you, they "split off" the logical intellectual part of their minds -- putting it out of reach of the conscious part. You therefore are left trying to reason with the emotional, intuitive part of their minds, i.e., with their "inner child."

Certainly, that is what my exW would do. Yet, if I was really upset with her lies and didn't speak to her for days, her abandonment fear grew so strong that she would eventually collapse into a sobbing, shaking state in which she appeared to be disintegrating, breaking down. At that point, she would admit to the lies and reveal the self-loathing she always kept hidden so well. And she would threaten suicide. Because it was so frightening to see her in such a broken state, I only pushed her to that limit a few times in our 15 years together (e.g., when on two occasions she ran up $5,000 in debt on secret credit cards I found out about).


> She has a "nobody controls me" but "I need to control you" type of attitude. Is this a common feature of BPD?


Yes, as Joe explained, a BPDer has a strong desire to control every aspect of her loved one's life. This is due to her great fear of abandonment, her inability to trust anyone, and her great difficulty with "object constancy," i.e., realizing that other people have stable personalities and desires that are reasonably constant over time. To augment that control, it is common for BPDers to try to isolate their spouses from the other family members and friends who would be supportive.


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## the guy

Stay strong B- and keep your distance in the hope that soon she will see the bottom of the barrel and seek help.
I know with hope comes disappointment, so distance your self and watch.
My thinking is if you stop engaging her she may find a last ditch effort to repair the marriage and with that it will be under your terms and that pro help and meds will be step one for her.

The thing that sucks is, after reading all of the above replies it seems like a long road or a cold day before she will ever take a desprite approach to do things on your term!


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## joe kidd

Pidge will tell you while I don't condone it, it took me completely checking out and going to another woman before she "woke up".


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## Berilo

Uptown said:


> If they are untreated, their emotional development is stuck at about age four, so they are very limited in their ability to protect their fragile egos. They are restricted to using the primitive ego defenses available to a young child. These include denial, projection, double standards, and black-white thinking.


You might have added, throwing and breaking things, one of the key weapons in the four year-old's arsenal. I have never met a woman before who got so violent so quickly over something that merited a cold conversation at best or a shouting match at worse. Her reflex to break, throw and hit was scary to watch, to say the least.



Uptown said:


> Although most BPDers I've met are very intelligent people, trying to reason with them goes nowhere because it is extremely painful and shameful for them to acknowledge making a mistake. Hence, when you have them in a corner, they usually will not hesitate to try to lie their way out of it. Reasoning does not work because, when they are arguing with you, they "split off" the logical intellectual part of their minds -- putting it out of reach of the conscious part. You therefore are left trying to reason with the emotional, intuitive part of their minds, i.e., with their "inner child."


In fact, I don't think we've ever had a really balanced, enjoyable conversation since we got married. Of course in the almost two years BEFORE we married, this wasn't the case: she was "love-bombing" me, and scored a direct hit every day. I thought I had a soul mate who understood me. Now, apart from not really engaging in my life, she's ever given me a sincere apology for anything since I've known her. Sure, if she spills coffee on me by accident she'd apologize and clean it up, as the obvious social practice. But if she does something wrong that is more subtle or more profound, I get a perfunctory "sorry, it's done", or worse, "what's your problem? what's this long face about?", and not in a caring way.



Uptown said:


> Yes, as Joe explained, a BPDer has a strong desire to control every aspect of her loved one's life. This is due to her great fear of abandonment, her inability to trust anyone, and her great difficulty with "object constancy," i.e., realizing that other people have stable personalities and desires that are reasonably constant over time. To augment that control, it is common for BPDers to try to isolate their spouses from the other family members and friends who would be supportive.


I just recently realized this dynamic at play here. All of the other women I have had relationships with in the past were wonderful social people. I really liked that, they tended to keep our social life as a couple on track, always planning meetings or dinners or events with family and friends. I didn't care if the events tilted towards her friends, as long as my friends and family were included in our social circle, and respected for their importance to me. Which they always were with these other women.

Now, I notice that my social life has taken a real dive since I met my wife. I find myself making apologies for why we can't accept invitations or can't give a quick answer. And we tend to stay home way too much for a couple without kids and with two incomes.

She has indeed tried to isolate me slowly from friends and family. I only see this now.

My wife is also downright rude and mercurial. An example. About two months ago, an old close business colleague (not a close friend, but a very nice guy with whom I worked closely on a project for two whole years), came to town on a Sunday morning for a business meeting on the Monday. He called to ask if we coud have brunch on the Sunday. My wife said, sure, let's! And, of course, since we're doing some shopping for the house afterwards, if he wants to walk the mall with us, she volunteered that he'd be welcome to come with us. Well, 15 minutes into brunch she decided for some reason she didn't like this guy (no reason I could see), and texted me that she didn't want him to come shopping with us and wanted to finish brunch right away. Could I please ditch him as soon as I can? I was shocked, and didn't ditch my colleague, which really pissed her off. Why would she offer to bring this guy along and then get me to ditch him right away?


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## Berilo

the guy said:


> Stay strong B- and keep your distance in the hope that soon she will see the bottom of the barrel and seek help.
> I know with hope comes disappointment, so distance your self and watch.
> My thinking is if you stop engaging her she may find a last ditch effort to repair the marriage and with that it will be under your terms and that pro help and meds will be step one for her.
> 
> The thing that sucks is, after reading all of the above replies it seems like a long road or a cold day before she will ever take a desprite approach to do things on your term!


TheGuy: I do expect that she will crash soon and come back, paradoxically telling me to return to the old apartment as she beats me over the head.

But given what she has done, and more pointedly, the severe psychosis she suffers (whether BPD or other), it would be very hard for me to take her back. I am proceeding firmly on the separation and divorce path. I told her about separation, but haven't spelled out D-I-V-O-R-C-E yet. I want to be wearing Kevlar and have at least one witness present before I inform her of that!


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## Uptown

Berilo said:


> Why would she offer to bring this guy along and then get me to ditch him right away?


More to the point, why are you asking this question? You already know the answer. Because your W has little impulse control and no strong sense of who she really is, she often does not know what she will want to be doing in the next hour, much less the next day. That is how emotionally unstable people behave.


> I do expect that she will crash soon and come back, paradoxically telling me to return to the old apartment as she beats me over the head.


If your W does decide she wants you back, she won't be beating you "over the head." Be prepared to see plenty of love bombing and adoration. If that doesn't work, it likely will be followed by a sobbing, shaking, physical disintegration that will be heart breaking to witness. No matter how angry you are with her, seeing another human being come apart at the seams is simply horrifying. In the 15 years I lived with my BPDer exW, I saw it happen only a few times. What I saw was a four year old girl who was writhing in pain, disintegrating in front of me. Of course, no matter how angry I had been, each time I embraced her and held her tight until she stopped shaking.


> But given what she has done, and more pointedly, the severe psychosis she suffers (whether BPD or other) ....


Actually, you have described nothing to indicate your W is psychotic or crazy. Psychosis occurs when a person loses contact with _physical_ reality, e.g., believing that the news announcer on TV is speaking to her personally. In contrast, a personality disorder like BPD only distorts the person's perception of other peoples' intentions and motivations. BPDers perceive of physical reality just fine.


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## Berilo

Uptown said:


> More to the point, why are you asking this question? You already know the answer. Because your W has little impulse control and no strong sense of who she really is, she often does not know what she will want to be doing in the next hour, much less the next day. That is how emotionally unstable people behave.If your W does decide she wants you back, she won't be beating you "over the head." Be prepared to see plenty of love bombing and adoration. If that doesn't work, it likely will be followed by a sobbing, shaking, physical disintegration that will be heart breaking to witness. No matter how angry you are with her, seeing another human being come apart at the seams is simply horrifying. In the 15 years I lived with my BPDer exW, I saw it happen only a few times. What I saw was a four year old girl who was writhing in pain, disintegrating in front of me. Of course, no matter how angry I had been, each time I embraced her and held her tight until she stopped shaking.Actually, you have described nothing to indicate your W is psychotic or crazy. Psychosis occurs when a person loses contact with _physical_ reality, e.g., believing that the news announcer on TV is speaking to her personally. In contrast, a personality disorder like BPD only distorts the person's perception of other peoples' intentions and motivations. BPDers perceive of physical reality just fine.


Uptown, you are right, I do know the answer to the first question; I was just observing in restrospect, and venting. Thanks for listening.

I really hope I don't see her disintegrating in front of me.

And thanks for setting me straight re terms like psychosis. I should be more careful in my terminology. But I a still trying to understand this stuff about BDPers having a distorted perception of other people, but having a good perspective of reality.


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## morituri

Sometimes it takes a divorce for a person to hit rock bottom, this may be one of those situations. Nevertheless, it is unhealthy for you to continue being in such a toxic marriage.


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## Uptown

Berilo said:


> I a still trying to understand this stuff about BDPers having a distorted perception of other people, but having a good perspective of reality.


It is very easy to understand because this very same distortion has already happened to you a thousand times. During your childhood, it happened dozens of times a day, every time you got angry. Even during adulthood, the distortion still happens every time you get angry. You are so familiar with it that, by the time you were in your teens, you already knew that you cannot trust your own judgment when you are very angry (or very infatuated). That's why you and I usually wait until we have a chance to cool off before opening our mouths or taking action. And that's why stable, mature people will wait until the infatuation period passes before deciding whether to get married to a new love.

Well, BPDers are pretty much the same as us in that intense emotions distort their perceptions of other peoples' intentions and motivations. The difference, of course, is that BPDers usually don't wait to cool off before speaking or acting. The reason is that they lack impulse control and they experience intense feelings far more frequently than we do. Hence, BPDers do not differ from us "Nons" in kind but, rather, only in degree.

In contrast, a psychotic person loses touch with physical reality and becomes delusional. I once met a young man, for example, who was convinced that people in planes flying overhead were spying on him. He also believed that people on TV were speaking to him personally.


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## Berilo

Uptown said:


> Even during adulthood, the distortion still happens every time you get angry. You are so familiar with it that, by the time you were in your teens, you already knew that you cannot trust your own judgment when you are very angry (or very infatuated). That's why you and I usually wait until we have a chance to cool off before opening our mouths or taking action. And that's why stable, mature people will wait until the infatuation period passes before deciding whether to get married to a new love.
> 
> Well, BPDers are pretty much the same as us in that intense emotions distort their perceptions of other peoples' intentions and motivations. The difference, of course, is that BPDers usually don't wait to cool off before speaking or acting. The reason is that they lack impulse control and they experience intense feelings far more frequently than we do.


Wow, you've just hit a button here for me. When my wife and I would have an argument that got heated and wasn't going to get resolved quickly, I'd often say something like, "honey, let's sleep (together) on this, have a nice breakfast tomorrow, and talk about things then in a calm, mood once we both can think about it and cool down". She would have nothing of it, and seemed to choose to misunderstand my desire not to let the heat of the moment get the better of us as me avoiding the issue and not wanting to deal with it NOW! This was some supposed character defect on my part, when I thought quite the opposite. She really seemed to relish battle wherever it happened, even over minor things. Not that she picked fights all the time (sometimes yes), she just didn't do what most people do to avoid them, tone them down, compromise, say at least "I regret that that happened" as a way to begin discussion without allocating fault.

And of course, she is always right. When she clearly isn't, the incident disappears from our collective consciousness within seconds.


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## Berilo

I haven't heard from her in almost 48 hours.

I sent her an email last evening saying basically "We are where we are, no point in fighting with each other, let's just be as civil as possible with each other so the transformation doesn't hurt any more than it has to".

No response. Is she celebrating, disintegrating, out with OM to distract herself, trying to outwait me, plotting some counter-attack, or what?

Once again, the weirdness of all this is really wearing on me.


----------



## Uptown

Berilo, thanks for the update.


Berilo said:


> I haven't heard from her in almost 48 hours.


Please forgive me for being flip but your W -- like my exW -- gives new meaning to the expression, "No news is good news."


> No response. Is she celebrating, disintegrating, out with OM to distract herself, trying to outwait me, plotting some counter-attack, or what?


Does it matter? I mean, seriously? No matter what a BPDer is plotting, thinking, or scheming today, everything can easily change 180 degrees next week -- or even tomorrow. Being unable to control their emotions, they go with the whim of whatever intense feeling is sweeping through their minds at the moment. Instead of challenging that feeling intellectually, they accept it as truth. This is why I always advise "Nons" to not fret and worry about what a BPDer is thinking or planning at this particular moment in time. It will quickly change. 

And this is why, despite all their attempts to manipulate and control their partners, BPDers are not very good at manipulation. They are too reactive to their current feelings. For manipulation to be effective, good planning and flawless execution are required -- both of which are usually undone by a BPDer's lack of impulse control. Instead of manipulation, you are more likely to see controlling and opportunistic behavior -- where your W sees an opportunity suddenly present itself that enables her to take advantage of you.


> Once again, the weirdness of all this is really wearing on me.


Yes, that "weirdness" of seeing _what-you-believed-to-be-your-soul-mate_ turn on you and betray you is so familiar to all of us Nons who were in a BPDer relationship. That's why BPDcentral -- at BPD Central - borderline personality disorder resources - support -- calls its forum "Welcome to Oz." (Another great BPD forum targeted to us Nons is BPDfamily, which I mentioned earlier.) That otherworldly feeling of waking up to find the world turned upside down will rapidly diminish over time, if you heal at the rate I did. In my case, however, it has never disappeared entirely. Instead, the feeling just occurs farther and farther apart. So I still have rare days -- five years post separation -- of feeling that way.


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## Berilo

Uptown said:


> Please forgive me for being flip but your W -- like my exW -- gives new meaning to the expression, "No news is good news."Does it matter? I mean, seriously?


You are right. No news is probably good news -- certainly much better than her coming over and making a scene or smashing something! But I am very anxious to get this awful period in my life over with.



Uptown said:


> And this is why, despite all their attempts to manipulate and control their partners, BPDers are not very good at manipulation. They are too reactive to their current feelings. For manipulation to be effective, good planning and flawless execution are required -- both of which are usually undone by a BPDer's lack of impulse control. Instead of manipulation, you are more likely to see controlling and opportunistic behavior -- where your W sees an opportunity suddenly present itself that enables her to take advantage of you.


I saw this -- even her manipulation was amateurish. (She can't plan anything three steps away.) Control and opportunism were her things.



Uptown said:


> Yes, that "weirdness" of seeing _what-you-believed-to-be-your-soul-mate_ turn on you and betray you is so familiar to all of us Nons who were in a BPDer relationship. That's why BPDcentral -- at BPD Central - borderline personality disorder resources - support -- calls its forum "Welcome to Oz." (Another great BPD forum targeted to us Nons is BPDfamily, which I mentioned earlier.) That otherworldly feeling of waking up to find the world turned upside down will rapidly diminish over time, if you heal at the rate I did. In my case, however, it has never disappeared entirely. Instead, the feeling just occurs farther and farther apart. So I still have rare days -- five years post separation -- of feeling that way.


This is a huge trauma for me. But although my heart is heavier than a few months ago, my shoulders are lighter -- I feel like a big weight has been taken off of them.

And unlike past big breakups I have had in my life -- where I always felt a sense of reget and what-could-we-have-done-better, regardless of who pulled the plug on the relationship -- I know this is 100% the right thing to do. Run as fast as possible. I never want to see my wife romancing another man like that again, let alone look into the eyes of a violent, raving maniac, like I did on Friday night.

Other than the mechanics and costs of the divorce, my biggest problem will be social -- what do I tell other people, especially those who think she is the greatest person around, and that I won the lottery to be with her! I don't want to spread private information, but I don't want to suffer opproprium that shouldn't be directed at me. I am thinking of just saying "She had an affair with another man. I couldn't accept that, so I left."


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## morituri

Berilo said:


> I am thinking of just saying "She had an affair with another man. I couldn't accept that, so I left."


Which is the absolute truth. You should expose her to others even if you have no intention of reconciling with her.


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## Uptown

Berilo said:


> I am thinking of just saying "She had an affair with another man. I couldn't accept that, so I left."


I agree with Morituri that this is an appropriate short remark that is true. I would avoid telling casual friends you believe she has strong BPD traits because the affair itself is sufficient reason for leaving. In my case, however, I did tell casual friends about my exW's BPD traits -- because she had been telling them that I was violent and a frequent liar and she had to have me arrested and thrown into jail for her protection (the having me arrested part is true). Because high functioning BPDers typically show their dark side only to close loved ones, it is common for a Non ex-partner to lose most of the couple's common friends. None of them can imagine that the BPDer would ever lie about such things. But, then, you won't lose any of your true, close friends.


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## Berilo

She called me this morning, wants to talk. We fixed a time for Sunday afternoon, but I made sure it is in a public place. 

I don't know exactly what she wants to talk about. Certainly we have a few "business" items to discuss -- for me, it will be a test of how amicable this split is going to be.

I will avoid being drawn into any replay of last week's drama, but let's see what she will do. Certainly, I will be ready to bolt from the public place if things get difficult.

Any advice on how to handle it? I don't want to assume she wants to be aggressive, or wants to try to save the marriage, until I see. Maybe with luck she'll agree on the way forward and we can both exit stage left and right, respectively, at a minimum of hassle and expense. But I am not hopeful, somehow ...


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## sam83

Berilo said:


> She called me this morning, wants to talk. We fixed a time for Sunday afternoon, but I made sure it is in a public place.
> 
> I don't know exactly what she wants to talk about. Certainly we have a few "business" items to discuss -- for me, it will be a test of how amicable this split is going to be.
> 
> I will avoid being drawn into any replay of last week's drama, but let's see what she will do. Certainly, I will be ready to bolt from the public place if things get difficult.
> 
> Any advice on how to handle it? I don't want to assume she wants to be aggressive, or wants to try to save the marriage, until I see. Maybe with luck she'll agree on the way forward and we can both exit stage left and right, respectively, at a minimum of hassle and expense. But I am not hopeful, somehow ...


Put a VAR in ur pocket so if she do anything this time put her in Jail :rofl:


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## Uptown

Berilo, I agree with Sam that a voice activated recorder will be a wise purchase if you don't already have one. Just carry it in your front pocket. Choosing a public place was very smart. Best of luck to you!


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## the guy

B-
Were ever you go, make sure there is no TV, more importantly, no remote  
Good luck stay focused and journal, it will help organize your thoughts in a time when you can be all over the place (emotionaly).


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## Eli-Zor

Try get two friends to go with and have coffee close enough to observe you, as this is a public place she should behave. The VAR is a must and check it works in a noisy place . Be calm , listen , don't nod your head or make sounds that imply you are agreeing with her. Set high boundaries and demands of what you want, don't blink, try not to show facial expressions and do not be tempted to agree a way forward without first consulting an attorney. 

If she is unwilling to commit totally to the marriage without diluting the boundaries, have herself submitted for treatment , or accept full responability for her behaviours then this is a waste of a meeting.

I suspect she may try manipulate, intimidate or threaten you either directly or indirectly.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Berilo

Uptown, Pidge, and Joe:

Can you please explain to me why BDPers have no empathy for their spouse's situation? 

This might help me get through tomorrow's meeting.

Many thanks.

- B


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## Berilo

Eli-Zor said:


> Try get two friends to go with and have coffee close enough to observe you, as this is a public place she should behave. The VAR is a must and check it works in a noisy place . Be calm , listen , don't nod your head or make sounds that imply you are agreeing with her. Set high boundaries and demands of what you want, don't blink, try not to show facial expressions and do not be tempted to agree a way forward without first consulting an attorney.
> 
> If she is unwilling to commit totally to the marriage without diluting the boundaries, have herself submitted for treatment , or accept full responability for her behaviours then this is a waste of a meeting.
> 
> I suspect she may try manipulate, intimidate or threaten you either directly or indirectly.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks for the advice, E-Z. I too am worried. I am proceeding with the split, I don't want to reconcile. I don't see how I could go back to her given how she is. I am only hoping she too sees that this is the right thing to do, and at least we can be cooly "business-like" or "civil" at a distance until all the property and logistical issues are dealt with.


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## Berilo

the guy said:


> B-
> Were ever you go, make sure there is no TV, more importantly, no remote


I was thinking of wearing my hockey helmet, actually.


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## Uptown

Berilo said:


> Can you please explain to me why BDPers have no empathy for their spouse's situation?


They typically have a compromised ability to recognize the feelings and needs of others associated with interpersonal hypersensitivity. This is why they are prone to feel slighted or insulted by innocuous things you do or say. And their perceptions of others tend to be selectively biased toward negative attributes or vulnerabilities. The basis of this hypersensitivity is their inability to manage their emotions, resulting in feelings that are overly intense. This inability to control emotions stems from their emotional development having been frozen at about age four. Hence, you effectively are asking "Why does someone with the emotional development of a four year old have so little empathy for other people?" The short answer, then, is "That's the way all four year olds behave."


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## joe kidd

Berilo said:


> Uptown, Pidge, and Joe:
> 
> Can you please explain to me why BDPers have no empathy for their spouse's situation?
> 
> This might help me get through tomorrow's meeting.
> 
> Many thanks.
> 
> - B


In my case I don't even think she was aware that a spouse could have a situation. If she were to acknowledge there was one then she would have to acknowledge what actions led up to it. That would shatter the whole I am a victim shell she lived in.


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## HelloooNurse

If she is actually BPD, then behind all that anger is fear. There is a book about BPD called "I hate you - don't leave me" and even the title of that book describes it succinctly. A majority of BPDers fear abandonment and all their weird behaviors are just their maladjusted ways to avoid it (yep, even the anger). So when you meet up with her, you never know, she may act differently than you expect because at the root of it, this split between you guys will be abandonment to her. So she will want to avoid that because to her, abandonment is devastating. This is textbook BPD stuff ofcourse so it varies from person to person. I just thought I would throw that out there.

So yeah, just be prepared because she may act a bit violent, etc like was already mentioned (good idea about meeting in the public place btw) or she might even just be a sobbing mess or really really emotional, it could go either way really. But yeah very good idea with the meeting in a public place.


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## lordmayhem

Whether she is BPD or not is irrelevant as far as domestic violence is concerned. Simply put, there is no excuse for domestic violence, and just because you are a man, does not mean you have to put up with domestic violence from her. She physically assaulted you. She's obviously a violent person, so to protect yourself, follow the advice above by having a VAR on you and meeting in a public place. When it comes time to retrieve your property, you can call the police to stand by and keep the peace while you retrieve your personal property. 

I don't understand why domestic violence by females tend to be overlooked and/or downplayed. In the past, I HAVE arrested the wife for domestic violence when the situation warranted it.


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## pidge70

I don't think anyone was telling him her possibly being BPD is an excuse for violence. 

How did it go Berilo? I truly hope it went smoothly.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chaparral

pidge70 said:


> I don't think anyone was telling him her possibly being BPD is an excuse for violence.
> 
> How did it go Berilo? I truly hope it went smoothly.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Worried about Berlio. Meeting was supposed to be two days ago. Hope he is alright.


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## Uptown

Me too. How did the meeting go, Berilo? You doing okay?


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## Berilo

Thanks, everyone, for your concern. That is really comforting. I'd feel worse without you all!

Things are ok, but weird.

Our meeting at the café went quite well under the circumstances. Lasted about an hour, tearful but civil. I told her (again) I wanted a divorce. She accepted it. We talked about some logistical issues, we worked out a few. She then had to go, so a hug and goodbye.

I went back to my house-in-progress by myself and cried. Really wailed actually.

I slipped into a snooze, and about 7:00 pm the doorbell rang. It was her. She took me by surprise, but I was awake enough to meet her outside on the porch furniture.

She seemed in a quiet but almost good mood. Weird. She then starting talking about the house as if nothing had happened. She wasn't pushy or anything, just was clearly trying to get back on track with me. 

I could see this a mile away: a campaign of carpet-love-bombing has started. I got her to go home after an hour. Yesterday, I came home to find a sandwich at the door from her. She sends me text messages that are nice and "normal" -- if last week hadn't happened.

This is pathetic. She can't even muster a "I'm sorry", or "what happened was awful", or "Yes, I had an affair with Mr Wonderful", or even replace my laptop and cellphone she busted. It's like a child who goes on a tantrum and destroys her parents fine china, and then an hour later shows up with a flower she picked from the garden for Dad. No connection.

She also clearly doesn't know how to spell D-I-V-O-R-C-E.

I am not falling for this, and I am keeping contact to a minimum, but being civil. I am proceeding with the lawyer. 

Is she really fooling herself? How long will the calm be before the next storm? She clearly doesn't want to let me go. 

She hates me, don't leave her.


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## Almostrecovered

glad to hear you're alive and with no new bruises

good for you for realizing her tactics and appropriately responding, I'd imagine the sh!t storm will hit eventually when she comes to the realization that you are still proceeding towards D


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## Uptown

Berilo, it is great that you are standing strong and not falling for the "hoovering" and love bombing. And it is a good thing that you are in touch with your feelings and are able to cry. You should feel sad. Leaving a sick, abusive loved one is such a sad, sad thing to do -- even though it is exactly what you must do. It is so difficult for guys like us to emotionally let go of the misguided notion that we can "fix" people if only we figure out how to love them enough.


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## morituri

Like you Berilo, it sometimes saddens me to know that the woman I once loved and who hurt me like no other, is mentally broken.


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## MrQuatto

So, how ya holdin up Berilo?


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## Berilo

MrQuatto said:


> So, how ya holdin up Berilo?


Not so well. I am feeling just awful. I am coming to terms with the fact that the "dream is dead", and all my efforts over the past 3+ years have been for (worse than) nothing.

What isn't making it easier is that she is continuing the love-bombing campaign. She is being so sweet; good thing I know it's all fake and am not engaging except for business items. And only on the phone, email and in a public place.

When I saw her at the café she looked stunning and acted as though all this awful stuff never happened. She is very good at this. Are BPDers good actors in hiding/ignoring the truth that they recognize, or do they not see what has happened and their operative role/conduct in the disaster?

I hope to file the papers in a week or two.

I am trying to get back into some rhythm of normal life, but it's not easy.


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## Uptown

Berilo said:


> Are BPDers good actors in hiding/ignoring the truth that they recognize, or do they not see what has happened and their operative role/conduct in the disaster?


With regard to their acting ability, yes, BPDers typically are excellent actors and my understanding is that many professional actors have strong BPD traits (although I am inclined to believe that, I certainly don't know it for a fact). Because BPDers have only a fragile, weak sense of who they are, they rely heavily on others for clues as to how they should be behaving in various social situations. They generally don't do this to be manipulative but, rather, to simply be accepted, to fit in, and to be loved. The result is that, because they've been "acting" in that way since early childhood, it is difficult for them to stop. It is an important coping mechanism they have relied on for a lifetime.

With regard to their self awareness, my understanding is that, yes, they typically are aware that the false image they project is not their true self. Indeed, this feeling of often being fake is one of the reasons they have so much self loathing. Moreover, it is one trait that distinguishes them from NPDers (narcissists) because the latter are so completely out of touch with their true selves that they actually are unaware that their projected self image is false. This is why NPDers become so irate when you have the temerity to challenge that false image rather than support it.

Yet, beyond that vague feeling of being fake, high functioning BPDers generally are not aware that the outrageous things they say in support of their strong feelings are wrong. As I've explained in many posts, they rely heavily on projection to protect their weak egos. The beauty of projection -- and the reason it works so well to protect them from the truth -- is that it works entirely at the subconscious level, allowing them to consciously BELIEVE the incredible rationalizations coming out of their mouths.

I said "generally are not aware" of their false claims because BPDers usually will lie when cornered to avoid the intense feeling of shame they suffer when caught in a mistake. During my 15 years of living with my BPDer exW, I quickly learned that I would drive myself crazy if I were determined to tease apart all the lies from all of the projections she really believed in.

Finally, I note that it is rare for a high functioning BPDer to have sufficient self awareness and ego strength to admit to herself that she has strong BPD traits. One reason, as I just mentioned, is the desperate need to avoid triggering the enormous shame carried inside. Another is that BPD traits are ego-syntonic, i.e., are such a natural part of the way she has been thinking since early childhood that these traits are invisible to her. 

Hence, although I've communicated with nearly a hundred self-aware BPDers here on the Internet, I've never met one in my private life. What is often so commonplace on the Internet can be a rare event in our private lives. Pidge, for example, has an amazing level of self awareness and ego strength for a person who is suffering from strong BPD traits. She not only recognizes them but is also working hard to manage and control them. This is why I value her contributions so highly on this forum -- and why I'm hopeful she will weigh in on this issue.


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## Berilo

Thanks very much, Uptown, for once again giving me something to understand. I recognize I will never know all the "whys" and "whats" in my wife's situation and our marriage, but I can't stop searching for explanations -- the sheer randomness, flip-flopping to extremes, stupidity and weirdness of it all is leaving me reeling.

(Yes, I think I would have preferred a generic exit by a more normal wife, who says something like "I have fallen in love with another man. Sorry, I'm leaving." That would hurt but at least be clear and concise.)

I guess it will take me a long while to get over it ...

But thanks again for being there. You guys have been a real vital lifeline for me over the past few weeks.

- B


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## Uptown

Berilo said:


> I think I would have preferred a generic exit by a more normal wife, who says something like "I have fallen in love with another man. Sorry, I'm leaving." That would hurt but at least be clear and concise.


Yes, all ex-partners complain of the lack of any sense of "closure" when the relationship ends. On top of that, they typically lose all mutual friends because the BPDer is so scathing and vindictive that she will say awful things about the ex-partner. Because she believes much of it, she can be very convincing to folks who've never seen her dark side.

For what it's worth, Berilo, your painful encounter with a BPDer has given you a knowledge of human frailty and emotional core damage that you could not have learned in four or five college psych courses. You therefore will walk away with a basic understanding of human nature that few men ever achieve in a lifetime. 

Significantly, I am not saying that such knowledge is actually _worth_ the great emotional price you are paying for it. I am saying, however, that you are leaving with extremely valuable insights into human motivation -- a knowledge that you can use the rest of your life to help others who are going down this same path. And, some day, that group may even include your own son or daughter. If so, I am hopeful they will have the presence of mind to listen to you.


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## Berilo

Uptown said:


> For what it's worth, Berilo, your painful encounter with a BPDer has given you a knowledge of human frailty and emotional core damage that you could not have learned in four or five college psych courses. You therefore will walk away with a basic understanding of human nature that few men ever achieve in a lifetime.
> 
> Significantly, I am not saying that such knowledge is actually _worth_ the great emotional price you are paying for it. I am saying, however, that you are leaving with extremely valuable insights into human motivation -- a knowledge that you can use the rest of your life to help others who are going down this same path. And, some day, that group may even include your own son or daughter. If so, I am hopeful they will have the presence of mind to listen to you.


Thanks, Uptown. Yes, when one learns the hard way, one sure learns well! I hope this painful episode doesn't make me too gun-shy in future relationships. But next time I see "red flags", I will certainly plot them much more carefully!!


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## Berilo

The latest news is that I think she is starting to freak out.

She tried during the last few days of the week to "smother" me with love and positive vibes. She called me and sent me messages frequently, tell me how wonderful I am. She even got a woman friend of hers to call me to tell me how wonderful my wife thinks I am. (Like, WTF ?????)

I wasn't having any of it outside of business hours and topics, so I shut down yesterday at 17:00 and went "dark". She immediately freaked out. I just got an email from her saying that I must have a girlfriend because I shut down. I am not responding.

She is completely ignoring the fact of separation and my declarations of divorce. She seems to think she can smooth over everything with offers of a few big hugs, compliments, dinner and wild sex. I am not biting.

I hope she doesn't go nuclear when I give her the papers, and am using the time to sort things out for me, prepare for the worst.


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## Tap1214

I am so proud of you for standing firm and sticking with your plan! You deserve so much better and someday you will look back and say "WHY did I stay as long as I did" ....Hang in there!!


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## Uptown

Berilo said:


> I hope she doesn't go nuclear when I give her the papers, and am using the time to sort things out for me, prepare for the worst.


Yes, absolutely, prepare for the worst. Divorcing a BPDer gets ugly very quickly. And, because a BPDer is unstable, her behavior can change radically from week to week. As you know, my separation from my exW began with her having me thrown in jail on a bogus charge. So far, you have been fortunate to escape that fate. I would not surprised to learn that a third of the men put into jail for "abusing their wives" are partners of BPDers.


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## pidge70

Prepare and expect the worst. I feel for you, I really do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Berilo

This is all just too weird for me. I have never experienced anything like this.

I am trying to break away, and will, but the way she is acting is complicating things. It is mystifying, actually. (Well not if she is BPD, as Uptown and others have mentioned many times.) She blows hot and cold, distant and then too close. When I go dark and shut off the phones for the weekend, she sends me emails accusing me of being with another woman.

I say, I wasn't, but what does it matter anyway, since we've broken up! She doesn't respond to that.

She seems to think I am still available for her to kick around. She then tries to love-bomb me, smother me with expressions of love and affection, saying how I am the greatest guy in the world.

Yesterday, she showed up uninvited at my office for lunch. I was shocked, was worried about making a scene, so I went down to the café around the corner with her. She acted completely normal, as if THIS WHOLE THING NEVER HAPPENED! She was talking about our house renovation, vacation plans, my family.

She has never apologized for any of this, even to express real regret. I have told her a dozen times that I cannot live with three people in the marriage and that I am out. She doesn't really respond to this, just gets dismissive. Once again, she has zero empathy for me. It's all about her and how she is responding and seeing the situation. 

Clearly, she wants me to come back. I will not.

This is all out of a bad film.


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## pidge70

I'm so sorry you are still dealing with this. One of the trademark traits of BPD'ers is a lack of empathy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Berilo

Thanks again for your support, Pidge. Really, if it wasn't for you people on here, I'd really be going out of my mind.

It's almost like I can't deal with the sadness because I am still stuck in the weirdness.


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## Berilo

Question: I received an expression of interest from a nice single woman I have known (not well) for a while. She saw at an event I was at last week that I wasn't wearing my wedding ring, seemed down, and asked if something was amiss. (I guess women really watch for this stuff!) She asked me out for a drink next week.

I don't want to get involved with anyone right now -- I don't have the emotional bandwidth-- but I would really enjoy a normal, light date. Is this ok?


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## pidge70

Only you can decide what is" ok" for you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Almostrecovered

I just recommend to take it slow if you do


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## Uptown

Berilo, I agree with Pidge. At this critical point, when you are trying to steel your resolve to stay away from your W, some things are "okay" that normally are not. For example, a little self-righteous anger is now your friend. I would encourage you to hold onto that anger, which usually is a necessary crutch for caregivers like us. Use it to help you walk away, and stay away, from the toxic relationship that you and your W had created together. Then, perhaps a year or two from now -- when you are safely away -- toss aside that crutch because it otherwise will just eat away at you -- and because the toxicity is not something SHE did to you but, rather, something you BOTH did to each other.

Hence, although the last thing you need now during the healing process is to start another relationship, going on a date could make it easier for you to enforce your personal boundaries and stay away from your stbEXw. If so, the date -- like the anger -- may be a good thing. Only you can decide whether that action is prudent.


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## sadcalifornian

I don't see anything wrong with the "light date" with her. You are resolved to D your W anyway. Just be careful not to fall for her too deep too fast. During the breakup or right after, BH often makes mistake of rushing to commit to the next relationship with a wrong partner. Also, you are not emotionally balanced right now for another serious relationship so soon. Like another poster said, take it slow.


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## Chaparral

Has WW official been diagnosed with BPD or anything else?


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## Berilo

sadcalifornian said:


> During the breakup or right after, BH often makes mistake of rushing to commit to the next relationship with a wrong partner. Also, you are not emotionally balanced right now for another serious relationship so soon.


Thanks for the good advice. Fortunately, there is zero chance I will dive head-first into another relationship very soon. (I know myself well enough for that one.) I was thinking more in terms of complicating my current exit somehow -- like maybe my wife targeting the new "light date". And also not being available for the new date if we develop some nice chemistry -- I wouldn't want to be unfair to her, but maybe I am over thinking this!


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## joe kidd

Berilo said:


> Thanks for the good advice. Fortunately, there is zero chance I will dive head-first into another relationship very soon. (I know myself well enough for that one.) I was thinking more in terms of complicating my current exit somehow -- like maybe my wife targeting the new "light date". And also not being available for the new date if we develop some nice chemistry -- I wouldn't want to be unfair to her, but maybe I am over thinking this!


I would be very worried about your wife targeting her. She might decide to make that poor woman's life hell.


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## Berilo

I am feeling really awful today. It is the weekend, which should be prime couple/family time, and I am alone.

My wife called me all week. I talked with her for 30 minutes yesterday (about nothing really, she had the day off, and was in a shop and wanted to get me a present). I said quite firmly that I don't need a present, thanks, and have to get back to work (which was true). She went ballistic at that moment -- she split me from "white" to "black" in five seconds. I had to do a quick good-bye and hang up.

I have shut down all phones this weekend.

This is torture. I am dealing with my own hurt and loneliness, punctuated daily with emotional surprises from an erratic clingy/aggressive stbExW.

She pretends not to understand why I want a divorce (that heavy OM stuff never really happened apparently ... ), and tries to smother me with love and "normalcy". And then the switch gets flipped, and she tells me how cold I am and how I obviously need therapy about that, etc.. Then I don't hear from her at all for 2 or 3 days, when the switch gets flipped back to "on".

I have never felt so emotionally abused in my life.

I will snap out of this, I will move on, I know, but I just need to vent. Thanks for listening.

- B


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## joe kidd

Berilo said:


> I am feeling really awful today. It is the weekend, which should be prime couple/family time, and I am alone.
> 
> My wife called me all week. I talked with her for 30 minutes yesterday (about nothing really, she had the day off, and was in a shop and wanted to get me a present). I said quite firmly that I don't need a present, thanks, and have to get back to work (which was true). She went ballistic at that moment -- she split me from "white" to "black" in five seconds. I had to do a quick good-bye and hang up.
> 
> I have shut down all phones this weekend.
> 
> This is torture. I am dealing with my own hurt and loneliness, punctuated daily with emotional surprises from an erratic clingy/aggressive stbExW.
> 
> She pretends not to understand why I want a divorce (that heavy OM stuff never really happened apparently ... ), and tries to smother me with love and "normalcy". And then the switch gets flipped, and she tells me how cold I am and how I obviously need therapy about that, etc.. Then I don't hear from her at all for 2 or 3 days, when the switch gets flipped back to "on".
> 
> I have never felt so emotionally abused in my life.
> 
> I will snap out of this, I will move on, I know, but I just need to vent. Thanks for listening.
> 
> - B


Oh I know. Got to hear for years how cold and distant I was and how I needed help. Catch 22 man. How dare you feel something other than what she wants? She can only abuse you if you let her, she knows that this is the end game so all guns will be emptied. You are doing fine.


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## Uptown

I agree with Joe. You are doing fine, Berilo, given how painful it is to leave a toxic relationship. Thanks for updating us.


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## Berilo

Thanks for the support, Joe and Uptown!


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## sadcalifornian

Wow, she reminds me of my ex. The woman I dated after D had some disturbing traits. Her interaction with her social network seemed always very exaggerated and enacted, and I noticed the lack of empathy often. She did not seem to even engage fully with her kids as she was more like just following the routines out of sense of duty. Not whole lot of emotions there. She also never apologized for anything. When she was found at fault, she would either change the subject or try to deflect. She would also get very violent when she did not get her way. For example, I used to cohabitate, but I just couldn't take it anymore and tried to leave a few times. Everytime, I tried, she would go balistic trying to snatch the car key out of my hand, out of the ignition, try to wrestle me back into the house. At one point, she even threatened with a kitchen knife that she would use it to kill me and herself. 

After seeing your posts, I now begin to suspect she may have BPD. Good riddance that I finally left her.


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## pidge70

sadcalifornian said:


> Wow, she reminds me of my ex. The woman I dated after D had some disturbing traits. Her interaction with her social network seemed always very exaggerated and enacted, and I noticed the lack of empathy often. She did not seem to even engage fully with her kids as she was more like just following the routines out of sense of duty. Not whole lot of emotions there. She also never apologized for anything. When she was found at fault, she would either change the subject or try to deflect. She would also get very violent when she did not get her way. For example, I used to cohabitate, but I just couldn't take it anymore and tried to leave a few times. Everytime, I tried, she would go balistic trying to snatch the car key out of my hand, out of the ignition, try to wrestle me back into the house. At one point, she even threatened with a kitchen knife that she would use it to kill me and herself.
> 
> After seeing your posts, I now begin to suspect she may have BPD. Good riddance that I finally left her.



While I'm not making excuses for anyone's behavior, those of us that are BPD sure as Hell didn't choose it. That said, it takes a LOT of work to overcome "natural" impulses. I can and do empathize what you had to go through.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## morituri

pidge70 said:


> While I'm not making excuses for anyone's behavior, those of us that are BPD sure as Hell didn't choose it. That said, it takes a LOT of work to overcome "natural" impulses. I can and do empathize what you had to go through.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Temporary thread jack. Apologies to OP
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Pidge,

Just like there are different types of alcoholics, are there different types of BPD people? I ask because you and AlmostRecovered seem to a very self aware BPD people while Berilo's stbxw is the total opposite.
--------------------------------------------------------------------


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## pidge70

morituri said:


> Temporary thread jack. Apologies to OP
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Pidge,
> 
> Just like there are different types of alcoholics, are there different types of BPD people? I ask because you and AlmostRecovered seem to a very self aware BPD people while Berilo's stbxw is the total opposite.
> --------------------------------------------------------------------



There are those of us that are "self-aware" and others that are not. There are also "high-functioning" BPD'ers and others not so much. It truly is a horrible thing for "nons" to deal with. I always thought the way I acted was "normal" till I hit rock bottom.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Almostrecovered

I'm bipolar, not borderline personality disorder
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Almostrecovered

Almostrecovered said:


> I'm bipolar, not borderline personality disorder
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I should also add that my disorder is "mild" compared to some, it certainly derailed my life at times but I have never been hospitalized, attempted suicide or been arrested. It also took a decade of figuring out how to control my disorder with meds and therapy to where it is minimized enough for me to function without it disrupting my goals and daily life. 
I was also fortunate to have it diagnosed in my early 20's so I was able to catch it early enough to do this.

Thus- as you can see there are many factors in how badly a mental disorder can effect your life. Berillo's wife was never diagnosed, never treated, seems more severe, and she hasn't even admitted to having it Unfortunately, I don't think many BPDers are willing to ever admit that they are as admission of weakness is something that they simply don't do due to the disorder and always blame everyone else but themselves.


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## pidge70

Almostrecovered said:


> I should also add that my disorder is "mild" compared to some, it certainly derailed my life at times but I have never been hospitalized, attempted suicide or been arrested. It also took a decade of figuring out how to control my disorder with meds and therapy to where it is minimized enough for me to function without it disrupting my goals and daily life.
> I was also fortunate to have it diagnosed in my early 20's so I was able to catch it early enough to do this.
> 
> Thus- as you can see there are many factors in how badly a mental disorder can effect your life. Berillo's wife was never diagnosed, never treated, seems more severe, and she hasn't even admitted to having it Unfortunately, I don't think many BPDers are willing to ever admit that they are as admission of weakness is something that they simply don't do due to the disorder and always blame everyone else but themselves.



It is very easy to get into the mindset of being a victim when you have BPD. Unlike bipolar, BPD is not genetic. Those with BPD have usually had some trauma induced which caused us to be so "screwed" up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Uptown

pidge70 said:


> There are those of us that are "self-aware" and others that are not. There are also "high-functioning" BPD'ers and others not so much.


I agree. IME, the vast majority of BPDers (those with strong traits above or below the diagnostic level) are high functioning. I've found that those who are self aware, like you, are very rare. Although I've communicated with nearly a hundred "self awares" on the Internet, I've never knowingly met one in my personal life. Hence, you have an amazingly level of self awareness for a person suffering from BPD.


pidge70 said:


> BPD is not genetic. Those with BPD have usually had some trauma induced which caused us to be so "screwed" up.


Pidge, please correct me if I'm wrong but I believe you mean to say that strong BPD traits are not caused by _body chemistry changes_, as is the case for bipolar disorder. BPD is believed to be "largely" genetic, however. I say "believed to be" because the cause of BPD has not yet been proven to a certainty. 

Psychologists therefore have turned to correlation studies that demonstrate a strong correlation between BPD and certain brain anomalies and between BPD and childhood abuse. The problem with correlation studies is that they cannot prove causality because the possibility exists that the two strong associated factors are correlated only because they are being caused by a third unknown factor.

A recent study (published 2008) of nearly 35,000 American adults found that 6% of the population has a lifetime incidence of it at the diagnostic level. It also found that, of that group, 70% reported having been abused or abandoned in childhood. Because 30% reported no childhood traumas, it is generally believed that BPD can be caused by genetics alone. This finding is a God-send to all the parents who have BPDer children even though they did a good job in nurturing and raising them, because it frees those parents from the accusation that they must have abused their own children. 

The prevailing theory, then, is that some people inherit a genetic predisposition to being overly sensitive and having a mental disorder of some type. If this predisposition is sufficiently severe, it by itself can cause BPD to develop. Yet, if it is less severe, the child will develop BPD only if they also are abused or abandoned in childhood. Moreover, some children may develop strong BPD traits without the genetic predisposition if they experience severe trauma (abuse or abandonment) in childhood. 

My understanding, then, is that psychologists generally believe genetics plays an important role but they are still divided on whether the genetic predisposition is necessary. Severe trauma alone may be sufficient.


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## pidge70

Uptown said:


> I agree. IME, the vast majority of BPDers (those with strong traits above or below the diagnostic level) are high functioning. I've found that those who are self aware, like you, are very rare. Although I've communicated with nearly a hundred "self awares" on the Internet, I've never knowingly met one in my personal life. Hence, you have an amazingly level of self awareness for a person suffering from BPD.Pidge, please correct me if I'm wrong but I believe you mean to say that strong BPD traits are not caused by _body chemistry changes_, as is the case for bipolar disorder. BPD is believed to be "largely" genetic, however. I say "believed to be" because the cause of BPD has not yet been proven to a certainty.
> 
> Psychologists therefore have turned to correlation studies that demonstrate a strong correlation between BPD and certain brain anomalies and between BPD and childhood abuse. The problem with correlation studies is that they cannot prove causality because the possibility exists that the two strong associated factors are correlated only because they are being caused by a third unknown factor.
> 
> A recent study (published 2008) of nearly 35,000 American adults found that 6% of the population has a lifetime incidence of it at the diagnostic level. It also found that, of that group, 70% reported having been abused or abandoned in childhood. Because 30% reported no childhood traumas, it is generally believed that BPD can be caused by genetics alone. This finding is a God-send to all the parents who have BPDer children even though they did a good job in nurturing and raising them, because it frees those parents from the accusation that they must have abused their own children.
> 
> The prevailing theory, then, is that some people inherit a genetic predisposition to being overly sensitive and having a mental disorder of some type. If this predisposition is sufficiently severe, it by itself can cause BPD to develop. Yet, if it is less severe, the child will develop BPD only if they also are abused or abandoned in childhood. Moreover, some children may develop strong BPD traits without the genetic predisposition if they experience severe trauma (abuse or abandonment) in childhood.
> 
> My understanding, then, is that psychologists generally believe genetics plays an important role but they are still divided on whether the genetic predisposition is necessary. Severe trauma alone may be sufficient.



From my research the jury is still out on whether it is genetic or not. I have also read that children of a BPD'er will most likely be BPD themselves. My 11yr old daughter's psychiatrist said he observed BPD traits in her without knowing I have BPD. That scares me and makes feel guilty as Hell to boot.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Almostrecovered

pidge70 said:


> From my research the jury is still out on whether it is genetic or not. I have also read that children of a BPD'er will most likely be BPD themselves. My 11yr old daughter's psychiatrist said he observed BPD traits in her without knowing I have BPD. That scares me and makes feel guilty as Hell to boot.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My younger son also has been diagnosed with mood disorder so I know this feeling well, at least he will have the benefit of early intervention and experience and understanding
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## pidge70

Almostrecovered said:


> My younger son also has been diagnosed with mood disorder so I know this feeling well, at least he will have the benefit of early intervention and experience and understanding
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



She's been diagnosed with ADHD and "situational" depression. Her uncle on her dad's side is paranoid schizophrenic. I sometimes feel she is doomed due to all this crap.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sadcalifornian

I think most ailments, physical or psychological, have some connection to genetics. The whole propaganda of "you are who you choose to be", which we keep telling each other, puts reluctance on people in accepting this as if this is the wrong way to think. Kinda like saying "life should be fair", when it never is. Waiting for solid scientific data proving so is fine, but I think the pattern has been noted again and again that we have to accept the fact that genetics do play roles in varying degrees in most of all our tendancies and illnesses. 

I am no doctor, but I think we should accept this as a part of nature.


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## morituri

pidge70 said:


> She's been diagnosed with ADHD and "situational" depression. Her uncle on her dad's side is paranoid schizophrenic. I sometimes feel she is doomed due to all this crap.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No she's got you to help her conquer them and to serve as a living symbol of triumph over adversity. She is quite lucky to have you as her mother and as someone who she can relate to.


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## pidge70

morituri said:


> No she's got you to help her conquer them and to serve as a living symbol of triumph over adversity. She is quite lucky to have you as her mother and as someone who she can relate to.



Thank you again for your kind words Mori. I pray you are right.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Berilo

morituri said:


> Temporary thread jack. Apologies to OP
> --------------------------------------------------------------------


Please jack away! There appears to be a lull in my suffering today ...


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## pidge70

Berilo said:


> Please jack away! There appears to be a lull in my suffering today ...



I wish you many "suffer free" days Berilo!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Berilo

pidge70 said:


> I wish you many "suffer free" days Berilo!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks, Pidge! I am hoping now for two days in a row!


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## Berilo

Well, the "fun" has started again.

Last night she called me from another number, so I picked up. She started to berate me for my "indifference" and "heartlessness". She was referring to me going dark on her and moving away to the cabin. She said that she wants an official separation, etc, etc.

She went on foaming for about 10 minutes more, and then my cell battery mercifully died. I got an email this morning from her criticizing me for hanging up on her.

She seems to be confusing my post-fight-and-separation conduct with my attitude during the marriage, when I was generally very attentive and supportive. She can't seem to draw a line between "before" and "after".

And it's still all about her, nothing about the affair with the OM, how she crushed my heart (and other parts of my anatomy).

I wrote back a short but civil email saying I regret that all this has happened, I loved you very much, but, yes, let's make the separation official.

I expect this will provoke another strong reaction.


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## lordmayhem

Berilo said:


> I expect this will provoke another strong reaction.


I can imagine it will. You're not playing her game the way she expected you to this time.


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## Chaparral

Have you ever asked her why she never mentions what she has done to you? Just curious. Many posters, myself included, wonder why many DS ignore that point.


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## joe kidd

chapparal said:


> Have you ever asked her why she never mentions what she has done to you? Just curious. Many posters, myself included, wonder why many DS ignore that point.


As a BPDer she won't . Anything she has done was Berilo's fault. If he asks she will turn it around and make herself the victim.


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## sadcalifornian

I agree that she will never admit her fault at A till the day she draws her last breath. Some people are like that. Just move on with D. She is hopeless.


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## Berilo

joe kidd said:


> As a BPDer she won't . Anything she has done was Berilo's fault. If he asks she will turn it around and make herself the victim.


Is this ever true ... I have never in my life experienced something like this, where someone who is at fault for the cheating (and 50% responsible for the marriage) accepts zero responsibility. The closest she has come is that two or three times she has made the blanket statement "I have made my mistakes", before she launches into another torrent of criticism of me. Her "mistakes" are never specified, mine are itemized.

She seems to think that all the love messages and attention with the OM over the past months is nothing, and that I am somehow overreacting, that I am a "jealous husband". I'd like to post some of the love messages to the OM -- they are so lengthy, adolescent, and over-the-top -- and get the forum's views on whether I am imagining something. I find them obscene; no normal woman who is reasonably content in her marriage would ever write that kind of stuff. So she isn't normal, or she isn't happy with the marriage. In either case I/we have a huge problem. She doesn't want to realize that, which is enormously frustrating for me.

Unfortunately, this fits the standard BPD pattern perfectly. Even if she weren't BPD it is a fatal conduct for a happy marriage.


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## sadcalifornian

Berilo said:


> Is this ever true ... I have never in my life experienced something like this, where someone who is at fault for the cheating (and 50% responsible for the marriage) accepts zero responsibility. The closest she has come is that two or three times she has made the blanket statement "I have made my mistakes", before she launches into another torrent of criticism of me. Her "mistakes" are never specified, mine are itemized.
> 
> She seems to think that all the love messages and attention with the OM over the past months is nothing, and that I am somehow overreacting, that I am a "jealous husband". I'd like to post some of the love messages to the OM -- they are so lengthy, adolescent, and over-the-top -- and get the forum's views on whether I am imagining something. I find them obscene; no normal woman who is reasonably content in her marriage would ever write that kind of stuff. So she isn't normal, or she isn't happy with the marriage. In either case I/we have a huge problem. She doesn't want to realize that, which is enormously frustrating for me.
> 
> Unfortunately, this fits the standard BPD pattern perfectly. Even if she weren't BPD it is a fatal conduct for a happy marriage.


You have to push them into the corner where they have absolutely nowhere to turn but to face it and apologize for it. Even, so you will get somewhat half-hearted apology. It is more of a gradual process of chipping away the hard shell of refusing to face the reality. 

For example, if you have the hard evidence of email correspondence, then print them out, even highlight the "juicy" parts, and confront her with them. Make a speculated timeline of progression of A, based on whatever evidence you can find, and try discussing it with her. You have to try not to encourage her defensive attitude when you confront. Maybe somewhat cordial and soft approach may work? Anyway, no matter how angry you may feel, do not berate her or raise your voice at her. 

Even so, she will play hard not to face it and apologize for it. Lots of blameshifting and attempting to change topics even. Be consistent without losing your temper everytime you do this. If she asks why you are doing this, what you want, etc., tell her you want a sincere apology. Do not use the word, "remorse". That would sound too over the top that she may not respond so well. You set the bar just high enough for her to be willing to jump over. Once she starts admitting it and saying "I am sorry", thank her for making you feel just a little less resentful. It's like coaxing a little kid to do things without getting mad at them. Also, that first "sorry" statement should be treated kinda like the first tiny speck of ember while trying to start a fire in a desert island without a match.

This was the approach I took with my XGF who I highly suspect was BPDer.


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## Berilo

sadcalifornian said:


> For example, if you have the hard evidence of email correspondence, then print them out, even highlight the "juicy" parts, and confront her with them. Make a speculated timeline of progression of A, based on whatever evidence you can find, and try discussing it with her. You have to try not to encourage her defensive attitude when you confront. Maybe somewhat cordial and soft approach may work? Anyway, no matter how angry you may feel, do not berate her or raise your voice at her.
> 
> Even so, she will play hard not to face it and apologize for it. Lots of blameshifting and attempting to change topics even. Be consistent without losing your temper everytime you do this. If she asks why you are doing this, what you want, etc., tell her you want a sincere apology.


Thanks, sadc. The same thing is going on with me.

I actually had the love emails themselves, because I sent them to my own account when I found them on hers. I sent her the three juiciest ones after our big fight last month, highlighting in yellow particularly painful passages for me, and stating only that "It appears from these emails that you married the wrong man. I hope you find happiness."

She hasn't responded to my email. Hasn't even acknowledged it, but she did refer obliquely to it once.

Also, when I talk about not wanting to be in a marriage of three people, she just says "we're not".

I don't get an apology, just blame shifting, gas lighting, and "please come back home, you jerk"!

I don't see a corner I can push her into.


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## sadcalifornian

Tell her, "you can call me jerk or whatever, but the truth is I am deeply hurt, and there is not a day that goes by I don't think about this affair. I am so hurt and still devastated. And, you don't even offer me a genuine apology. What kind of monster of wife are you to have done this and still refuse to say 'sorry'". 

"I want to get over this hurt and move on, but I can't, because you refuse to even apologize. If I have done this to you and never say even 'sorry', how would you feel?"

The fact is that she may have said some insincere 'sorry' in a half-hearted way, but by you keep sticking to this and demand she say it more often. Hopefully, the subsequent "sorry"s become more sincere and lead her to open up more expressing her guilt, which I am sure built up deep inside her somewhere.


----------



## sadcalifornian

Also, tell her "the kind of casual 'sorry's you gave to me in the past were so insincere that it was just insulting to me. Those were the kind of casual apology to give to someone who you may have stepped on their shoes or brushed shoulder in the street. I don't want that kind of degrading 'sorry'. This is a husband you have hurt like you can't even imagine. I am bleeding inside right now, and you just don't see it. Please give me some kind of sincere apology to help me heal."


----------



## Berilo

sadcalifornian said:


> Tell her, "you can call me jerk or whatever, but the truth is I am deeply hurt, and there is not a day that goes by I don't think about this affair. I am so hurt and still devastated. And, you don't even offer me a genuine apology. What kind of monster of wife are you to have done this and still refuse to say 'sorry'".
> 
> "I want to get over this hurt and move on, but I can't, because you refuse to even apologize. If I have done this to you and never say even 'sorry', how would you feel?"
> 
> The fact is that she may have said some insincere 'sorry' in a half-hearted way, but by you keep sticking to this and demand she say it more often. Hopefully, the subsequent "sorry"s become more sincere and lead her to open up more expressing her guilt, which I am sure built up deep inside her somewhere.


I guess being her means never having to say you're sorry.

We went around the same merry-go-round this morning. She called me early, bent up, wanting to "talk". She says she can't understand why I am acting like this, she never had any affair with the man. I responded that by the many impassioned words she herself wrote (and a few I heard) to this guy over an eight month period, it was entirely inappropriate and disrespectful of our marriage and her husband. 

Again (and I am venting), this was no momentary Las Vegas lapse of judgment or just getting too friendly with an otherwise nice co-worker. I don't want to be married to a woman who writes repeated love messages to another man. Period.

Of course, when I dig my heels in about this (however calmly) she reverts to the blame shifting about me abandoning her since the separation, me working too hard, me being uncommunicative, etc. She once again suggested that I seek counselling for an obvious deep-seated trauma of some kind. But when I asked her right after whether we could both seek marriage counselling to deal with this issue of the OM, she declined!!!

I am going to go dark again next week. I need to get off the merry-go-round. This is very wearing on me.


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## Uptown

Berilo said:


> I guess being her means never having to say you're sorry.


If your suspicions about her having many strong BPD traits are correct, obtaining an apology won't mean much even if you get it. There is not much difference between being married to a four year old who occasionally apologizes and one who does not. Either way, you're married to a woman with the emotional development of a young child -- and having no interest in seeking professional guidance on learning more mature emotional defenses.


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## pidge70

Uptown said:


> If your suspicions about her having many strong BPD traits are correct, obtaining an apology won't mean much even if you get it. There is not much difference being married to a four year old who occassionally apologizes and one who does not. Either way, you're married to a woman with the emotional development of a young child -- and having no interest in seeking professional guidance on learning more mature emotional defenses.



:iagree: Until I hit rock bottom I would never apologize and mean it. I now will apologize and say it with total sincerity. I realize when I'm wrong now and will say I'm sorry.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Berilo

Not much to update.

I really needed a break, so took off for five days to New York, where I have some friends and could just lose myself in the stores and cafés.

I am feeling a little depressed, and lethargic, but not wholly incapacitated. I bought a few bags full of new clothes from some of the good men's stores there, so maybe at least I'll look ok!

I told my wife I was taking off for a break, hoping she'd leave me alone. Silly me. She has been sending me messages berating me for leaving my phone off, that I am cold, that I have always been an awful communicator, I must have a girlfriend, etc.

Once again (and I am venting), it really riles and hurts me that I seem to get no real respect from her. Any normal person who did what she did would at least respect my desire to get some space and sort things out on my own. The expression "chill out" doesn't seem to mean anything to her. (And I understand why, if she is indeed a BPD-er.)

Of course when I file documents, I will have good reason to block her phone forever, but I am not looking forward to the atomic explosion. I just want a month or two of peace, by myself, as I try to rebuild my life.

This is a wholly unfair situation, but I must recognize that I did get myself into it. A few big "red flags" popped up early in our relationship; I chose to ignore them, blinded by the love.


----------



## Uptown

Berilo, thanks for another update of your marital situation. Venting can be a good thing because, even though you intellectually understand her BPDer motivations, your feelings can easily take many months to catch up to that intellectual knowledge -- at which point you will "feel" it to be true at a gut level (a sign of having turned the knowledge into wisdom). What I found most helpful in closing that gap is to talk about the problems to anyone who will listen -- which last a few weeks before their eyes roll back in their heads -- and then writing about it to folks having similar experiences.


----------



## Berilo

Uptown said:


> B... even though you intellectually understand her BPDer motivations, your feelings can easily take many months to catch up to that intellectual knowledge .


I think that's exactly where I am. My head understands what is probably going on, but my heart still doesn't.


----------



## morituri

What if for every nutty text message she sends, you simply reply "You are an unremorseful and unfaithful wife" over and over again? It's not like it is going to get through her head but it just might keep your thoughts and feelings from focusing off the reason why you are divorcing her.


----------



## Chaparral

morituri said:


> What if for every nutty text message she sends, you simply reply "You are an unremorseful and unfaithful wife" over and over again? It's not like it is going to get through her head but it just might keep your thoughts and feelings from focusing off the reason why you are divorcing her.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

However, I also agree with your wife. I do think you should get counseling. Most of all just for your own peace of mind and then tell your wife your counselor says she nees counseling too. 

Just tell her if she doesn't get counseling there is no point in talking to her and she needs to quit calling you.


----------



## lordmayhem

chapparal said:


> :iagree::iagree::iagree:
> 
> However, I also agree with your wife. I do think you should get counseling. Most of all just for your own peace of mind and then tell your wife your counselor says she nees counseling too.
> 
> Just tell her if she doesn't get counseling there is no point in talking to her and she needs to quit calling you.


Easier said than done. 

He's BEEN telling her to stop calling and she WON'T listen.


----------



## Chaparral

lordmayhem said:


> Easier said than done.
> 
> He's BEEN telling her to stop calling and she WON'T listen.



Still think he needs to try and make it sound like a quid pro quo.
If she refuses, then he tells her to quit calling.... again. When she calls he doesn't answer. In family emergencies she can text.


----------



## Berilo

I will be seeking counselling on my own for all this, whatever happens. I am a mess.


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## lordmayhem

Call your cell phone company and have her number blocked. If she needs to communicate with you, let it be through email.


----------



## joe kidd

Berilo said:


> I will be seeking counselling on my own for all this, whatever happens. I am a mess.


She will have you doubting yourself....don't. She will be sweet and nice until she sees that doesn't work them BOOM! Emotional explosion. I'm sure you hear things like " I always knew you never loved me" and "That's it, just walk out and give up , you don't care". It's crap, treat it as such.


----------



## Berilo

joe kidd said:


> I'm sure you hear things like ... "That's it, just walk out and give up , you don't care". It's crap, treat it as such.


I am now getting frosty, short communications from her with this very message of "you are uncommunicative, you don't care, you are an awful husband".

Again, nothing about her conduct that caused me to split with her and go silent.

She is trying to pin all the blame on me, and, of course, she is choosing to confuse my pre-separation conduct from post-separation conduct. (I left home and went dark, so I must be awful.)

This stuff isn't easy to take. I am not doubting myself -- I don't have much choice in what I have to do -- but it sure hurts to be told by the person you loved so much, who has caused you so much grief, that you are the problem.


----------



## lordmayhem

This is why you need to change your phone number and go NC with her for a while. Communicate via email only and only about financial matters. You need to stop taking this emotional abuse.


----------



## Chaparral

Berilo said:


> I am now getting frosty, short communications from her with this very message of "you are uncommunicative, you don't care, you are an awful husband".
> 
> Again, nothing about her conduct that caused me to split with her and go silent.
> 
> She is trying to pin all the blame on me, and, of course, she is choosing to confuse my pre-separation conduct from post-separation conduct. (I left home and went dark, so I must be awful.)
> 
> This stuff isn't easy to take. I am not doubting myself -- I don't have much choice in what I have to do -- but it sure hurts to be told by the person you loved so much, who has caused you so much grief, that you are the problem.


And do you ever reply, "I'm not the one who committed adultery, you are and thats the problem."

I would repeat this every time she texts or called until she either started admitting it or quit calling/texting. Its the only thing I would say over and over until I got the conversation I wanted or she would leave me alone.


----------



## Berilo

Sorry to dump on everyone, but it is Saturday night, the dream is dead, I am alone. I feel worse than I ever have in my life.


----------



## the guy

B-
Stay stong bro, you have to go thru fire to make steel. Remember this crap is a rollercoaster ride so good days are soon to come.

You diserve good things and never forget that. Its up to the ones that truely love us to give us good things. 

When the ones that love us, start to blame us...well we have to step back and think, "weres the love man" 

You've been here long enough to know the script, do not let her get the best of you. Do not let her define who you want to be. Please show her that she will not win.Show her she can not beat you by being a positive, confident, and a strong man that will succeed, with or or with out her.

Fake it till you make it


----------



## pidge70

Berilo said:


> Sorry to dump on everyone, but it is Saturday night, the dream is dead, I am alone. I feel worse than I ever have in my life.[/
> QUOTE]
> 
> Are you okay?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Uptown

Berilo, how are you doing, dude? Please talk to us.


----------



## ScullyFan

Berilo, are you ok? Please let us know, you have a group of people here who care about you and what your going through.


----------



## Berilo

Hi everyone. Thanks for your concern. I am less bad today. Last night after I wrote the message, I drove to the mall and hung out for an hour or so, just to not be alone. I went into stores and talked to the staff about their products, to distract myself. (It kind of worked, and I bought some nice new headphones!) Anyway, I came home, sipped two big glasses of wine, and fell asleep. I slept about 10 hours.

Today I am focusing on a project for work, just to keep my mind off things some more.


----------



## Uptown

Berilo, I'm glad to hear that you are feeling a bit better today. Like I said, the gawd-awful bad days don't stop all at once but, rather, just get farther and farther apart -- if my experience is any guide. Your distracting actions were smart choices. Going to the mall was wise because it got you out moving around and meeting people, if only for short periods at a time. The wine, however, is not a good choice. As you surely know, alcohol is a depressant -- the last thing you should be taking at this time. I say this because depression can be deadly, and I want you to stay safe.


----------



## Berilo

Uptown said:


> Berilo, I'm glad to hear that you are feeling a bit better today. Like I said, the gawd-awful bad days don't stop all at once but, rather, just get farther and farther apart -- if my experience is any guide. Your distracting actions were smart choices. Going to the mall was wise because it got you out moving around and meeting people, if only for short periods at a time. The wine, however, is not a good choice. As you surely know, alcohol is a depressant -- the last thing you should be taking at this time. I say this because depression can be deadly, and I want you to stay safe.


Thanks, Uptown, you are right of course, esp about the alcohol. I don't have much problem with it, I don't drink so much, and a glass of wine puts me to sleep. But I'll watch it.


----------



## ScullyFan

Berilo, good to know you are feeling better. Good move surrounding yourself with people and do something to distract you. If you are not doing IC you may want to consider it as well as going to the doctor, you can get something to help you that will be much better than the wine that you should avoid. It's important to take care of yourself. It will get better. Wish you the best.


----------



## Berilo

Just an update for my friends about the last two weeks.

I am ok on the whole.

I have mostly been away from town on a business trip, which I extended just to distract myself. Fortunately, I have had a very good month at work -- with some good news personally -- so at least that scene is very positive for me. I am not a real workaholic (I like to take vacations!), but I think I will immerse myself in work for a bit. At least I feel comfortable, and the returns are good.

My wife's behaviour continues to be erratic. I have been distant but civil, trying to avoid any big blow-up. For example, I let her know by email when I am leaving or coming back to town and basic logistical stuff like that.

She wrote me last week asking how I could leave the house because of her communications with the OM, when I was chatting in a friendly way with my young female colleague at work. My wife even sent me a string of text messages that I sent to this co-worker. (She obviously snooped and kept them three months ago. I don't care, there's not much there.)

I don't think I will respond to this provocation. She is equating friendly work-day banter with a colleague (who is happily married, and too young for me anyway!) with her hot-and-heavy love emails and texts with the OM. MY emails certainly don't say "I love you" or "I want to be with you" or anything like that -- whereas HERS do. Mine say stuff like "Sorry I missed the staff meeting lunch. What was on the menu today?" (it's usually good).

This is a pathetic attempt at establishing equivalency.

It doesn't matter, I guess, given the future path here, but I just don't know if I should state something for the record that I have never acted inappropriately with this younger colleague. Or should I just ignore it and let it go.

Speaking of letting go, I am still having problems acknowledging to myself that "the dream" is indeed dead. I guess it isn't so easy dealing with all of this emotional overload. And it's the "heart having trouble catching up to the head" thing. I have had a few consultations with a counsellor, which helped a bit, least of all to get reinforcement that I am not crazy and certainly didn't deserve this mistreatment (even if I walked into it willingly).

But I do feel that I've moved forward in the past month, however much it hurts. For one, I feel like I have my life back in my hands.


----------



## pidge70

I'm glad to hear things are better for you. Do not respond to her. It will just give her validation that you did something wrong (in her eyes) if you try explaining yourself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Uptown

Berilo, thanks for the update. I'm glad to hear that you are doing reasonably well.


Berilo said:


> I just don't know if I should state something for the record that I have never acted inappropriately with this younger colleague. Or should I just ignore it and let it go.


I agree with you that, in an age of telecommuting, it is ridiculous to cite friendly business chat as a problem. Out of respect for her, I would tell her that and nothing more. I agree with you that, no matter what you say, it won't matter a week from now. Has ANY explanation or assurance you've given her mattered a week later? Of course not. A woman with strong BPD traits is reactive to whatever intense feelings she is experiencing today. As I said before, it is impossible to build up a store of good will (that you can draw on during the hard times) with such people. Their current feelings are so intense -- so "real" feeling -- that they are out of touch with the good feelings they once had about you. That is what splitting does.


> I am still having problems acknowledging to myself that "the dream" is indeed dead. I guess it isn't so easy dealing with all of this emotional overload. And it's the "heart having trouble catching up to the head" thing.


Yes, it takes time. But you are doing well and seem to be healing. You know too much now to ever turn back. You will never look at her again and see anything other than the terribly hurt, angry, little girl who controls nearly every action of hers. And you will always know that, if you were to return to your walking-on-eggshells enabling behavior, you would harm her by not allowing her to suffer the logical consequences of her own actions. Absent the consequences, she will never be able to confront her issues and learn to manage them.


----------



## Berilo

Uptown said:


> You will never look at her again and see anything other than the terribly hurt, angry, little girl who controls nearly every action of hers. And you will always know that, if you were to return to your walking-on-eggshells enabling behavior, you would harm her by not allowing her to suffer the logical consequences of her own actions. Absent the consequences, she will never be able to confront her issues and learn to manage them.


Thanks, Uptown.

I have thought about this hundreds of times: I can't/don't see her any more the way I thought she was. At best, when I look back at the positives, I know I was dealing with Dr Jekyll then, not the Mrs Hyde who subsequently sprung onto the scene.

And I don't want to walk on even one eggshell any more.


----------



## joe kidd

Berilo said:


> Thanks, Uptown.
> 
> I have thought about this hundreds of times: I can't/don't see her any more the way I thought she was. At best, when I look back at the positives, I know I was dealing with Dr Jekyll then, not the Mrs Hyde who subsequently sprung onto the scene.
> 
> And I don't want to walk on even one eggshell any more.


She is just doing what worked in the past. Head up man.


----------



## sadcalifornian

Berilo said:


> She wrote me last week asking how I could leave the house because of her communications with the OM, when I was chatting in a friendly way with my young female colleague at work. My wife even sent me a string of text messages that I sent to this co-worker. (She obviously snooped and kept them three months ago. I don't care, there's not much there.)
> 
> I don't think I will respond to this provocation. She is equating friendly work-day banter with a colleague (who is happily married, and too young for me anyway!) with her hot-and-heavy love emails and texts with the OM. MY emails certainly don't say "I love you" or "I want to be with you" or anything like that -- whereas HERS do. Mine say stuff like "Sorry I missed the staff meeting lunch. What was on the menu today?" (it's usually good).
> 
> This is a pathetic attempt at establishing equivalency.
> 
> It doesn't matter, I guess, given the future path here, but I just don't know if I should state something for the record that I have never acted inappropriately with this younger colleague. Or should I just ignore it and let it go.


Suggest her that you are willing to take poly in exchange for her taking it as well.


----------



## joe kidd

sadcalifornian said:


> Suggest her that you are willing to take poly in exchange for her taking it as well.


Why? Truth means nothing to a BDPer if they are not self aware.


----------



## sadcalifornian

joe kidd said:


> Why? Truth means nothing to a BDPer if they are not self aware.


Well, it's at least someting to get back at her with.


----------



## pidge70

Why would he waste money on a polygraph? He's divorcing her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## joe kidd

sadcalifornian said:


> Well, it's at least someting to get back at her with.


No it's not. It's another thing she can twist and throw back at him. I.E. "I knew you never trusted me so why should I try?" Believe me man I lived with it.


----------



## Uptown

sadcalifornian said:


> Suggest her that you are willing to take poly in exchange for her taking it as well.


Sad, I agree with Pidge and Joe. Because BPDers are unable to trust for any extended period, passing one test successfully means absolutely nothing. It will quickly followed by yet another test. During my 15 years with my BPDer exW, I passed hundreds of such tests and it meant nothing. A BPDer is reactive to whatever intense feeling she is experiencing that moment and she will accept it as "truth." 

As Joe says, a BPDer does not want to accept too much of the truth because it is so painful. She therefore protects her fragile ego with the primitive emotional defenses she has available. These include denial, projection, and black-white thinking -- the same defenses that are available to a four year old. Because her emotional development is stuck at that young age, she cannot draw upon more advanced defenses (e.g., self soothing and intellectual challenge of feelings). To learn them, she must be willing to spend years in therapy. Very few have the self awareness and ego strength -- as Pidge has -- to stay in therapy long enough to make a real difference.


----------



## Berilo

Just an update.

Nothing has changed, I am continuing to try to rebuild my life on my own, bit by bit. Two steps forward, one step back. I am feeling a little more confident, if sad at the same time. It's weird. Happy to get my life back but devastated at what got me here.

She gave me the silent treatment last week; I didn't respond. This week it's the charm-offensive. More food left at my door, nice emails, etc. I won't respond to that either, except a "thank you" and "hope all is well", etc.

I am too emotionally drained to file papers before Christmas. Fortunately she has a great job and money, so fighting over assets doesn't seem to be a priority -- at least right now. I just want her to drift away, leave me alone, and let me get on with my life. I don't think it will be so easy, but every week for me that goes by well away from the "eggshell course" is wonderful.


----------



## Uptown

Berilo, thanks again for touching base to give us an update. You now have such a healthy aversion to eggshells that it may be many years before you will enjoy the pleasures of another good Easter egg hunt.


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## pidge70

Good to hear from you. Please take care of yourself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## warlock07

I don't remember exactly but was there any PA?


----------



## pidge70

warlock07 said:


> I don't remember exactly but was there any PA?


Why does that matter? The man is upset as it is. You can read the beginning of his thread to find out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## morituri

warlock07 said:


> I don't remember exactly but was there any PA?


His wife had been texting the OM declarations of her undying love to him while at the same time accusing Berillo of cheating on her. So it is very possible that she may have had a PA. But whether she did or not, her abusive behavior of Berillo is more than enough for him to divorce her and move on with his life.


----------



## pidge70

morituri said:


> His wife had been texting the OM declarations of her undying love to him while at the same time accusing Berillo of cheating on her. So it is very possible that she may have had a PA. But whether she did or not, her abusive behavior of Berillo is more than enough for him to divorce her and move on with his life.


:iagree:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## warlock07

I was just asking though. We see many husbands over here who would be very grateful if it was just a EA. While I am not in anyway saying that he should go back, I think this is a good case where doing the 180 is working. Too bad that she is a delusional BPD


----------



## Berilo

I don't think the "180 is working", for two reasons:

1. Whether she is actually a BPDer or not, she sure has problems with relationships generally or with ours in particular. She flip-flops constantly between hot and cold (whether it takes a week, a day or an hour), and I feel she is seldom being non-manipulative. I don't think a 180 would work with her, as any resolution would only be temporary. There is no objectivity or self-criticism, let alone remorse and empathy here.

2. I can't take her back. Apart from the fact I can't trust her any more -- not just to keep her skirt down, but not to lie to me -- I have taken the firm decision not to be manipulated any more. It was an awful situation, in which I could do nothing right, for most of our marriage.

Once again, this is unfortunately not a situation of an otherwise "normal" spouse just getting a little bored with the marriage and falling onto the lap of a nice and attractive colleague during a corporate conference out of town. That sort of mishap can be remedied. Whatever her/our problem is, there isn't a cure that I am aware of.


----------



## morituri

*WARNING: The 180 is NOT a manipulation tool to make your spouse end his/her affair and commit to do the work of marital recovery, IT IS an emotional empowerment tool to help you become emotionally strong so that you can move on with your life - with or without your spouse. No one wants to be perceived as pathetic. 180 makes you look strong. Strong is attractive. *


----------



## pidge70

warlock07 said:


> I was just asking though. We see many husbands over here who would be very grateful if it was just a EA. While I am not in anyway saying that he should go back, I think this is a good case where doing the 180 is working. Too bad that she is a delusional BPD


BPD'ers are NOT delusional.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Berilo

pidge70 said:


> BPD'ers are NOT delusional.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Certainly my wife has not been delusional in a clinical sense, but she has acted to twist the truth (and our history) in a way that approaches a state of serial breach with reality. I somehow think deep down she knows she's messing with the truth, but it is far more convenient and comfortable for her to deal with things as they can be "creatively" interpreted.


----------



## Berilo

This is breaking my heart all over again.

Tonight she called me, crying and really desperate. This wasn't an act, I think she was feeling really bad.

I listened to her. She said it was three months since I had left and that she felt miserable and lonely --- she went on and on for 30 minutes. I think she really needed to talk to someone. I said that I sympathized. I too felt miserable and lonely. But I also said that that is what happens when things don't work out between two people.

That is when the tone changed. She said I had no reason to feel miserable, it was my choice to leave, I must like to live alone, I don't want a woman in my life, etc. I reminded her that what caused my departure wasn't a lack of interest in marriage or a woman, but my renewed discovery that she needs the attention of more than one man -- and that I cannot live with that. This did not seem to register at all.

Now this apparent absolute denial of what awful things happened — and her blame shifting to me -- doesn't surprise me at all, given the conversation we have had on this thread. But it really hurts. It's like nothing I do or feel matters at all.

The call soon ended, unhappily of course. She seems completely unable to hold a mirror up to herself. Again, no surprise, but I am left once again with a double feeling of whiplash and WTF?

I am glad I have had the three months out. I am feeling a little stronger — if yes, miserable and lonely. I might feel like starting the paper process in January, we'll see.


----------



## morituri

Question. What good reason is there for you to allow her to contact you?


----------



## Sindo

Have you ever suggested to her that she needs serious professional help? It's been speculated on a lot in this thread, but I'm curious if you've ever brought it up to her.


----------



## Uptown

Berilo said:


> This wasn't an act, I think she was feeling really bad.


Berilo, thanks for touching base with us again. Yes, most likely your W was feeling very sad and wanting you back badly. Like your W, my exW still wants me back (at least as a friend) -- and we are 4 years post-divorce. At the same time, she is still convinced that I am a violent man who tells a new lie every week. As I mentioned to you this past August, this distorted and "split" way of thinking is reflected in the title of the #2 best-selling BPD book: _I Hate You, Don't Leave Me._ If your W is a BPDer as I suspect, she is unable to handle or resolve having strong mixed feelings -- so she escapes the ambiguity and contradictions (the same way a four year old escapes them) by doing black-white thinking, i.e., flipping back and forth from one polar extreme view to the other. 

Your being legally married to an untreated, unstable person puts you at great financial risk for whatever costly actions she may take (e.g., having you thrown into jail on a bogus charge, as in my case) -- not to mention the potential physical risks to your personal safety. IMO, a sociopath would be safer to be around than a distraught BPDer. A sociopath is generally safer because he is emotionally stable and has a strong, consistent self image (i.e., he knows who he is). A situation is more fraught with danger when your spouse experiences intense hatred -- as occurs when a BPDer perceives you to be Hitler incarnate -- than when the spouse regards you as simply a piece of furniture.

I therefore feel that, for you two, January cannot come soon enough. Please stay in touch with us during the holidays. A number of us here -- Pidge, Chapparel, Morituri, Joe, LordMayhem, 8YearsCheating, SadCalifornian, me, and others -- have been concerned about your well being for several months now. Take care, Berilo.


----------



## Berilo

morituri said:


> Question. What good reason is there for you to allow her to contact you?


That is a great question. I wish I had as great an answer.

I guess I am trying to get out of this as peacefully as possible. That could be wishful thinking, as I when I pull the plug legally, things could get nasty. But for this month, I can deal with her for the two hours a week she seems to demand by phone or email -- as long as I am free the other 6 days and 22 hours.

I am getting back on my feet and am feeling much stronger to deal with what might be coming.

But I am very mindful of the cautionary comments from Uptown and others.


----------



## Berilo

Sindo said:


> Have you ever suggested to her that she needs serious professional help? It's been speculated on a lot in this thread, but I'm curious if you've ever brought it up to her.


The most I suggested, some time ago, was that we together seek marriage counselling.

She said that she doesn't need the help, I do.

So I haven't even commented to her on her emotional situation since. And now, there is no point to doing so.


----------



## Berilo

Uptown said:


> Yes, most likely your W was feeling very sad and wanting you back badly.


I think you are right. Last night I came home to find some dinner left in a bag on my door.



Uptown said:


> If your W is a BPDer as I suspect, she is unable to handle or resolve having strong mixed feelings -- so she escapes the ambiguity and contradictions (the same way a four year old escapes them) by doing black-white thinking, i.e., flipping back and forth from one polar extreme view to the other.


The instability and flip-flopping from one extreme to the other continues to be shocking. One call she is charming me as the greatest guy, the next one four days later I am the biggest sh*t in the world.



Uptown said:


> Your being legally married to an untreated, unstable person puts you at great financial risk for whatever costly actions she may take (e.g., having you thrown into jail on a bogus charge, as in my case) -- not to mention the potential physical risks to your personal safety. ....
> 
> I therefore feel that, for you two, January cannot come soon enough.


Concern very well noted. I need to steel myself for what I have to do.

Thank you very much, Uptown (and all the others) for your support and helpful comments. I would be a mess without you.


----------



## JustaJerk

Whew! That was one long thread. The only thing I can say after reading this novella is- STOP BEING HER DOORMAT! You keep communicating with her. That's why you can't move forward. Stop the nonesense and end it already. You're a glutton for punishment. STOP IT ALREADY.


----------



## the guy

He's trying but she's a nut!
Its my take that B- is managing her madness and balancing an all out war versus a civility like north and south Korea.

6 days and 22 hours a week is better then increasing the drama and bring other into it....she sound like the type that would start a sh!t storm.

Thats why there is a big concern for when shes served next year. She will go crazy nuts big time....the perfect storm if you will....


----------



## warlock07

I feel so bad for the OP as well as the WS. She really seems to be struggling. If he could just convince her to seek IC somehow.....


----------



## Sindo

warlock07 said:


> I feel so bad for the OP as well as the WS. She really seems to be struggling. If he could just convince her to seek IC somehow.....


I was thinking along the same lines. 

She'll go through life destroying every relationship she has until she ends up old and alone. She won't be able to help it, and she'll never know why. 

I don't know how receptive she'll be to IC, but it can't hurt to try. 

It may be pointless as far as your marriage goes, but it could make a world of difference for her as a human being.


----------



## Berilo

the guy said:


> Its my take that B- is managing her madness and balancing an all out war versus a civility like north and south Korea.
> 
> 6 days and 22 hours a week is better then increasing the drama and bring other into it....she sound like the type that would start a sh!t storm.


North and South Korea is a great analogy! (And funny!)

I think you understand my situation; thank you.


----------



## Berilo

Sindo said:


> I was thinking along the same lines.
> 
> She'll go through life destroying every relationship she has until she ends up old and alone. She won't be able to help it, and she'll never know why.
> 
> I don't know how receptive she'll be to IC, but it can't hurt to try.
> 
> It may be pointless as far as your marriage goes, but it could make a world of difference for her as a human being.


I wish she would seek IC, and I have suggested counselling in the past, but she has firmly said she doesn't need any. She says I do.

Unfortunately, after the abuse of the past year or two, I barely have enough energy to look after myself. I can't worry about her state of mind, other than tactically to make the split less horrific.


----------



## Berilo

JustaJerk said:


> Whew! That was one long thread. The only thing I can say after reading this novella is- STOP BEING HER DOORMAT! You keep communicating with her. That's why you can't move forward. Stop the nonesense and end it already. You're a glutton for punishment. STOP IT ALREADY.


Yes, this has been quite a novella! We are separated, which was a huge accomplishment for me without a war having been started when I wasn't in any state to deal with it. I don't talk to her much, and don't want to. She is financially independent, spending her own money, not mine. I am not getting entangled in any of her games, so I don't think I am being a doormat of any kind.

I am using the time on my own to arrange my affairs and get back on my feet. It is working. I will soon be ready for the next step.

But thanks for your concern, JJ.


----------



## JustaJerk

It just seems to me that you are getting ill just dealing with her BS. She's a toxic person, and her toxicity is damaging your well-being. To quote Shaggy, you need to cut that cancer from your body.


----------



## Uptown

JustaJerk said:


> To quote Shaggy, you need to cut that cancer from your body.


JJ, the surgery took place on September 2, at which time Berilo packed all four bags and moved into his new (85% finished) home. (Remember the zip, zip, zip, and zip on the VAR? Those were the surgical cuts being recorded for posterity.) Berilo performed the surgery using two cell phones, both of which were destroyed during the operation, together with the four zippered bags.

But, of course, that surgery analogy -- as all anlogies do -- has severe limitations and only takes you so far. Once a lump of tumor cells is cut from the body, it doesn't stand up, run out of the building screaming, and start bad mouthing you all over town to friends and business associates. Moreover, you don't have to spend a year in the courts to become disentangled from all your legal obligations to a dead tumor. 

In light of all these added complications, I am simply amazed at how well Berilo has handled the pre-surgery, the 9/2 surgery itself, and the nasty ongoing post-surgery period. WAY to GO! Berilo, you're THE MAN!


----------



## JustaJerk

^Clearly, they need to go back in there and remove the rest of the tumor because its STILL doing some harm, or haven't you noticed.


----------



## Uptown

^^^Perhaps I failed to notice. In any event, I share your concern about Berilo's safety. The holiday period -- and any protracted divorce period -- are the most dangerous times to be dealing with a person having strong untreated BPD traits. If the W is a BPDer, her actions are very unpredictable, especially when she starts realizing that the OM is flawed and she starts feeling desperate and alone. Like you, JJ, I want Berilo to be safe.


----------



## Sindo

Berilo said:


> I wish she would seek IC, and I have suggested counselling in the past, but she has firmly said she doesn't need any. She says I do.
> 
> Unfortunately, after the abuse of the past year or two, I barely have enough energy to look after myself. I can't worry about her state of mind, other than tactically to make the split less horrific.


I understand if you don't have the energy to pursue it seriously. If you were on NC, I wouldn't even suggest it. But since you're talking to her anyway, maybe you could make a token effort and slip it into conversation ?

She might deny it and blow up at you, but that's happening anyway. But maybe it'll plant a seed in her mind so that one day, she'll try to seek help on her own.


----------



## Berilo

Uptown said:


> But, of course, that surgery analogy -- as all anlogies do -- has severe limitations and only takes you so far. Once a lump of tumor cells is cut from the body, it doesn't stand up, run out of the building screaming, and start bad mouthing you all over town to friends and business associates. Moreover, you don't have to spend a year in the courts to become disentangled from all your legal obligations to a dead tumor.
> 
> In light of all these added complications, I am simply amazed at how well Berilo has handled the pre-surgery, the 9/2 surgery itself, and the nasty ongoing post-surgery period. WAY to GO! Berilo, you're THE MAN!


Thank you Uptown! You really do understand exactly what I am going through. This is the weirdest experience of my life, and defies "normal" explanations and advice. Really, I would not have been able to make sense of it without the perspective I have received from you and others on this site.

What is important right now is that I am on my own again, getting my life back, and feeling stronger every month. I will cut the remaining cords in early 2012 -- well knowing that some will be electrified and others bunjee. It won't be surgical, though, however much I might wish it were.


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## morituri

Take care of yourself berillo. We pray that your heart will mend and that you will find peace and happiness.


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## Berilo

morituri said:


> Take care of yourself berillo. We pray that your heart will mend and that you will find peace and happiness.


Thank you too, Morituri for your kind words, and constant support over the past few difficult months.


----------



## pidge70

I hope the best for you as well. If your W truly is BPD there is nothing you could have done different. She has to seek help for herself and then stay with it. I wish you all the best!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chaparral

I wish you could get her into counseling. Even if you had to trick her into it.


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## Berilo

Just an update, folks.

Not much to report. Things have been reasonably quiet over the past three weeks. She's done a bit of love-bombing -- I think trying to reel me back in. Like leaving me food and other gifts, sending me notes about things in the future -- as if nothing happened. She also told me that she loves being married to me and wants to continue. I spoke to her mother on Christmas Eve -- she knows nothing of our separation (!), except apparently that I am a bit of a loner and like being by myself at the cabin. (!)

My wife's lovey-dovey program, of course, is punctuated at irregular moments by her getting critical and angry at me when I don't answer her phone calls or emails, or don't "bite" on the bait presented. She says I am a cold, unemotional person. (Well, I am being somewhat distant and businesslike, anyway ...  )

She still says nothing about her infidelity, serial lies, or even remorse for wrecking my personal stuff in September. So we continue to have nothing to talk about.

January is coming. I am getting ready, but this is really breaking my heart.


----------



## joe kidd

Berilo said:


> Just an update, folks.
> 
> Not much to report. Things have been reasonably quiet over the past three weeks. She's done a bit of love-bombing -- I think trying to reel me back in. Like leaving me food and other gifts, sending me notes about things in the future -- as if nothing happened. She also told me that she loves being married to me and wants to continue. I spoke to her mother on Christmas Eve -- she knows nothing of our separation (!), except apparently that I am a bit of a loner and like being by myself at the cabin. (!)
> 
> My wife's lovey-dovey program, of course, is punctuated at irregular moments by her getting critical and angry at me when I don't answer her phone calls or emails, or don't "bite" on the bait presented. She says I am a cold, unemotional person. (Well, I am being somewhat distant and businesslike, anyway ...  )
> 
> She still says nothing about her infidelity, serial lies, or even remorse for wrecking my personal stuff in September. So we continue to have nothing to talk about.
> 
> January is coming. I am getting ready, but this is really breaking my heart.


So you are still getting the "Why are you treating me like this?" crap huh? She truly thinks that if she doesn't speak of it , it never happened. My take anyway. Hope the new year goes better for you my friend.


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## Sindo

Did you fill your mother in law in on what is going on? Not just the cheating, but the extent of her psychological problems?


----------



## Uptown

Berilo said:


> January is coming. I am getting ready, but this is really breaking my heart.


Berilo, yes, walking away from a sick loved one -- as I also had to do five years ago -- is simply heart breaking. It is a sad thing to do even though you understand intellectually that the toxic marriage is harming both of you. Indeed, I am still saddened when I think about it because I still have affection for my exW, whom I've known and loved for 45 years. I nonetheless came to realize that, because she is incapable of trusting me, I can never trust her and she can turn on me at any time. So please hold strong in January. Thanks, again, for the update.


----------



## Berilo

joe kidd said:


> So you are still getting the "Why are you treating me like this?" crap huh? She truly thinks that if she doesn't speak of it , it never happened. My take anyway. Hope the new year goes better for you my friend.


Thanks, Joe. I am indeed looking for a better New Year's next year.

In her mind, yes, nothing ever happened and I am still imagining it all. Also, I am a very jealous husband who likes to be alone (as if that is a likely combination!).

The unreality of it all and the complete disregard for my feelings and situation has been perhaps the cruellest cut of all. But I will survive, I already have one foot out of the twilight zone...


----------



## Berilo

Sindo said:


> Did you fill your mother in law in on what is going on? Not just the cheating, but the extent of her psychological problems?


I have not filled in mother-in-law on the details yet, although I did tell her my wife and had a really big fight some weeks ago. She seems to like me a lot, and I think she can connect a few dots here.

When I do tell mom-in-law, I expect it will set off an explosion by my wife, which won't do anyone any good. So I will wait until the right moment if I can.

I'd like to tell her about her daughter's apparent psychological problems, but only if mom-in-law gives some kind of opening to do so. If she isn't ready to hear it, then I'll just have two people against me instead of one.


----------



## Berilo

Uptown said:


> Berilo, yes, walking away from a sick loved one -- as I also had to do five years ago -- is simply heart breaking. It is a sad thing to do even though you understand intellectually that the toxic marriage is harming both of you. Indeed, I am still saddened when I think about it because I still have affection for my exW, whom I've known and loved for 45 years. I nonetheless came to realize that, because she is incapable of trusting me, I can never trust her and she can turn on me at any time. So please hold strong in January. Thanks, again, for the update.


Thanks, Uptown. Once again, I think we understand each other very well in this sad circumstance.

The key components in this disaster will always be the two "T's" you mention: "toxic" and "trust". I can't trust her again, whatever she says or does: that is fatal for a marriage. And even if I could pretend that she was trustworthy so I could maybe to get by from one day to the next, the toxicity of her erratic, disrespectful, self-centered behaviour would corrode any remaining virtue or value of staying together.


----------



## Sindo

Berilo said:


> I have not filled in mother-in-law on the details yet, although I did tell her my wife and had a really big fight some weeks ago. She seems to like me a lot, and I think she can connect a few dots here.
> 
> When I do tell mom-in-law, I expect it will set off an explosion by my wife, which won't do anyone any good. So I will wait until the right moment if I can.
> 
> I'd like to tell her about her daughter's apparent psychological problems, but only if mom-in-law gives some kind of opening to do so. If she isn't ready to hear it, then I'll just have two people against me instead of one.


Berilo

In my comments in this thread, I feel I may have focused on your wife's mental state to the point of seeming insensitive to your own. My apologies, but this post will be along the same lines.

Your wife is sick. You are in no state to take the time, energy or go through the emotional pain necessary to get her the help she needs. Soon she will no longer be your responsibility.

Her mother is in a position to do what you cannot. Her daughter will always be her responsibility, and there is no limit to what she may be willing to do.

Your mother-in-law may be in denial at first, but you have evidence. The two of you also have a good relationship. And as you said, she can connect the dots. I do not believe she would turn against you. She will be receptive if it is clear you are making a genuine effort to help.

You want to pick the right moment to tell her. I can tell you when the wrong moment will be, and that's after divorce. At that point, your mother in law will be a lot more skeptical of your intentions and a lot less willing to give you the time of day. Particularly if your wife paints you as a monster beforehand. The sooner this gets done, the better. 

There will be an explosion from your wife when you tell your mother in law. But think of the long-term. Imagine how much better life after divorce will be if she is getting treatment. If she goes untreated, there is nothing preventing your crazy ex-wife from contacting you whenever she wants, sending you into a tailspin every time.

You are in a lot of pain, and may not feel it worth exposing your wife's behavior to her family. But I'd urge you to rise above that pain for just a few hours to do something for the woman you believed you loved. You can then leave the marriage knowing that you did all you could.


----------



## Uptown

Sindo said:


> Her mother is in a position to do what you cannot. Her daughter will always be her responsibility, and there is no limit to what she may be willing to do.


Perhaps so, but that seems unlikely, Sindo. On 8/7, Berilo said, "She has a non-existent relationship with her family." This strongly suggests that the mother has already reached the limit of what she is willing to do. Moreover, strong BPD traits are believed to be caused by genetics and/or childhood abuse, so the mother may be the source of the problem. 



> I can tell you when the wrong moment will be, and that's after divorce. At that point, your mother in law will be a lot more skeptical of your intentions....


I disagree. If Berilo decides to contact the mother, it will be prudent to wait until he gets well past the divorce. There is little to gain by inflaming his W during the divorce process -- possibly having to also deal with a slander lawsuit over his unprovable claim -- when there is little chance that the mother will be receptive to the information. Like they say, the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. 

Indeed, at the websites maintained by ex-partners of BPDers, the universal recommendation is not to mention the disorder even to the BPDer -- because she almost certainly will project it right back onto you, believing that you are the BPD sufferer. Instead, you are supposed to simply encourage them to seek IC (good advice that you gave earlier, Sindo). 

Yet, being a caregiver who is unwilling to leave any rock unturned, I ignored that advice and gave my exW a BPD book following our divorce. I slipped it into a box of her belongings that she was picking up. Of course, she now is convinced that I am a BPD sufferer.


----------



## Berilo

Uptown said:


> There is little to gain by inflaming his W during the divorce process -- possibly having to also deal with a slander lawsuit over his unprovable claim -- when there is little chance that the mother will be receptive to the information. Like they say, the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.
> 
> Indeed, at the websites maintained by ex-partners of BPDers, the universal recommendation is not to mention the disorder even to the BPDer -- because she almost certainly will project it right back onto you


Regrettably, I must agree completely with Uptown here: this isn't a question of me not wanting to help her with her problem, it's that if I try to raise the psychological question (BPD or whatever), it is 80% likely to blow up in my face -- without being of any help to her.


----------



## Berilo

I am just adding here a postscript from about two months ago that adds some important detail about my STBXW.

One afternoon I met my wife in her office to deal with some minor "business" paperwork. (I wanted people around!) We used the meeting room.

She must have been on an up-cycle that day, because she seemed very normal and charming. She actually asked if I could help her with a certain government website, which she was having trouble navigating and registering her information. (I am better at such stuff.) I said sure, and she handed me her laptop, with the information to register. She then got called away by a colleague for some urgent matter.

The registration thing took some time, so while I was waiting, I took a quick look at her internet history. My interest was suddenly piqued, so I looked at her cached pages: full of screen-shots of messages on a dating site to various men. The messages weren't too spicy, but definitely very friendly leading up to meeting them at specific places and times. There were two who she seemed to particularly like.

I was disgusted more than hurt, so I stopped my investigation before revealing yet another layer of dirt.

We were separated at that point for two months, so I suppose she's free to do whatever she wants. But what does this say about her hot-and-heavy relationship with the OM (which appears to be still ongoing on the side)? And her trying to love-bomb me back? How can someone really have legitimate romantic affection for and emotional connection with four men at the same time?

The only good things about this episode were: 1) my ire towards the OM declined slightly -- look what he's gotten himself into!; and 2) if I needed further reason to RUN (which I don't), this was it.

She really is one twisted piece of work. Maybe someday I might feel sorry for her -- but only when I am well out of it and from a long distance!


----------



## Complexity

I feel not only bad for your wife but also the next man that will be wooed by her love bombs.

She evidently has commitment issues, I think when you were dating and her boyfriend called you, you should've met with him and got his angle on the story so that you'd know what you're getting yourself into.

Eitherway it's really depressing to see someone so unable to look at herself in the mirror. She really needs help.


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## Amos

*A woman with a weak, fragile, unstable sense of herself has a tremendous desire to live with a man having a stable personality that can center and ground her -- providing her a sense of normalcy and a sense of direction. Yet, when she gets exactly that, she will feel controlled and dominated and feel like she is loosing the little sense of identity that she has. It is a very frightening feeling.*

This thread was an eye-opening thread for me. I realized that my wife is classic BPD. I appreciate all of the advice given here. It is why my situation didn't make sense to many on this forum (including myself). All of the signs are there. I plan on buying a copy of Walking on Eggshells today.


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## Berilo

Amos said:


> *A woman with a weak, fragile, unstable sense of herself has a tremendous desire to live with a man having a stable personality that can center and ground her -- providing her a sense of normalcy and a sense of direction. Yet, when she gets exactly that, she will feel controlled and dominated and feel like she is loosing the little sense of identity that she has. It is a very frightening feeling.*
> 
> This thread was an eye-opening thread for me. I realized that my wife is classic BPD. I appreciate all of the advice given here. It is why my situation didn't make sense to many on this forum (including myself). All of the signs are there. I plan on buying a copy of Walking on Eggshells today.


Very sorry to hear, Amos, that you are joining this "club" of ours. Well, at least I hope you find, as I did, that once you can make some sense of the senseless, it gets easier to cope.

All the best to you in dealing with this.


----------



## Berilo

Complexity said:


> I feel not only bad for your wife but also the next man that will be wooed by her love bombs.
> 
> She evidently has commitment issues, I think when you were dating and her boyfriend called you, you should've met with him and got his angle on the story so that you'd know what you're getting yourself into.
> 
> Eitherway it's really depressing to see someone so unable to look at herself in the mirror. She really needs help.


She really does need help, but as I've mentioned in the thread, she's perfect, and I am the source of all the problems. Until something happens to make her hit rock bottom or have some emotional epiphany, she will continue her romantic wrecking campaign. 

I agree I should have observed her much better when we were dating: there were a lot of red flags that I ignored, or at least severely underestimated their importance. Love was blind -- and she put up the best possible act for almost a year.


----------



## antonym

Belilo

Respect to you!!

I have just read this entire thread. Your experience is identical to mine with one key difference - the point at which I discovered her affair, I stupidly allowed myself to be sucked back in with her desperate apologies, begging and sobbing, and naively thinking "we can start afresh".

That was 2 years ago. The worst 2 years of my life. Absolute hell. We finally separated for good (NC) a month ago.

I wish I had done what you have done. End it, and walk away immediately. Its the only way.

Good luck!!


----------



## antonym

....just want to add that she is now in therapy, having accepted she's "not right". 

This is of course a very good thing for her, but a distraction for me. A distraction in the sense that, although I'm doing NC in order to move on, me knowing she now "wants to get well", I'm occasionally getting these worrying little "what ifs and maybes" popping in to my head. Agh!!!

Its probably best to start another thread about the "what ifs and maybes" once an exbpd has started therapy - wouldn't want to hijack.

A


----------



## Berilo

antonym said:


> Belilo
> 
> Respect to you!!
> 
> I have just read this entire thread. Your experience is identical to mine with one key difference - the point at which I discovered her affair, I stupidly allowed myself to be sucked back in with her desperate apologies, begging and sobbing, and naively thinking "we can start afresh".
> 
> That was 2 years ago. The worst 2 years of my life. Absolute hell. We finally separated for good (NC) a month ago.
> 
> I wish I had done what you have done. End it, and walk away immediately. Its the only way.
> 
> Good luck!!


Antonym,

Many thanks for your note. Sorry to hear you had a very similar experience, especially regarding the "we can work it out" part after the affair. Can you share the outline of what happened with you?

Certainly the detaching part is the toughest thing I have ever done, as my STBXW is like a bungee spouse: she jumps away, but likes to bounce back with a thud. Or send her away and she snaps back in the same way. I am trying to cut the bungee cord permanently, which is difficult to do without starting WWIII.

After a few months of serial marital disasters, most "normal" people I think either accept that the marriage is over (even if hurt/angry about it), or try to be positive, open (loving, remorseful, etc) and try to make it work. She does the whole spectrum in the same time span, usually at high emotional intensity, and being ludicrously inconsistent without blinking an eye (such as "It's ok for me to screw around all I want, but if you ever, ever get one phone call from another woman ....", or "I can treat you like dirt, win the prize for World's Worst Wife this quarter, but don't I look sexy tonight? Don't be a jerk, let's go out and have fun and forget all about it! I love you!") 

To act as though she is well in a marriage when she is doing everything she can to debase and undermine it: this is the whiplash thing that is still leaving me reeling. And the distorted "story-telling" I am now starting to hear from her, often telegraphed though other people.

Fortunately, I am currently enjoying a week of blissful peace and quiet, away on a business trip on the other side of the country. 

Good luck to you Antonym; sorry to see you hear under similar circumstances, but I am glad that you are sharing your story.

- B


----------



## Berilo

antonym said:


> ....just want to add that she is now in therapy, having accepted she's "not right".
> 
> This is of course a very good thing for her, but a distraction for me. A distraction in the sense that, although I'm doing NC in order to move on, me knowing she now "wants to get well", I'm occasionally getting these worrying little "what ifs and maybes" popping in to my head. Agh!!!
> 
> Its probably best to start another thread about the "what ifs and maybes" once an exbpd has started therapy - wouldn't want to hijack.
> 
> A


I too get bouts of the "what ifs and maybes" pangs, but less intense and frequent than even two months ago. I do, however, expect a major relapse when I finally pull the plug.

She is/was like an enticing, seductive mirage, a siren fashioned out of my ideal for a mate. Easy occasionally to try to fall back in love with that image, and forget the demon within. (This is like something out of Star Trek!)

I agree it would be a great discussion for a separate thread.


----------



## Dadof3

Berilo said:


> I too get bouts of the "what ifs and maybes" pangs, but less intense and frequent than even two months ago. I do, however, expect a major relapse when I finally pull the plug.
> 
> She is/was like an enticing, seductive mirage, a siren fashioned out of my ideal for a mate. Easy occasionally to try to fall back in love with that image, and forget the demon within. (This is like something out of Star Trek!)
> 
> I agree it would be a great discussion for a separate thread.


Kinda like the Salt Vampire episode? Or the one where his past lover switches bodies with Kirk?


----------



## Berilo

Just an update ...

All is ok under the circumstances.

I am continuing to break away, and am feeling slightly better every week or so. (Not every day, because I have an occasional relapse when my heart is tugging harder than my head.)

I haven't heard from her at all -- any medium -- for more than a week, which has to be a record. About two weeks ago she made a feeble attempt to love-bomb me by sending me emails remembering happy moments that we had together at the beginning of our relationship. (Like, how do THOSE cancel out the 10 times worse ones she caused toward the end?) But still no hint of apologies or regrets -- not that I need them any more (but it would be nice).

I have been distracted with normal, positive things about me (like lots of work, travel, and friends) this month -- which has felt pretty good -- so I haven't been quick to push the lawyers on the documents. But the documents are coming together, so things will take their course soon.


----------



## Uptown

Berilo said:


> I am continuing to break away, and am feeling slightly better every week or so.


Berilo, thanks for giving us another update. I am glad to hear that you are starting to heal. That process will accelerate after you are fully separated from her. As to your not hearing from her for over a week, I'm afraid this is just a lull before the storm that will occur when you file the divorce papers. I wish you the best.


----------



## Uptown

Amos said:


> This thread was an eye-opening thread for me. I realized that my wife is classic BPD.


Amos, I've been following your "Wife Came Clean" thread since you started it a year ago. The reason I never suggested BPD traits in your thread is that your very first post states that the 9-year marriage "hit a rough patch in years 7 and 8." Significantly, BPD traits originate in early childhood and thus do not lie hidden for the first six years of a marriage. They will only be largely suppressed during the 6-month honeymoon period, when her infatuation over you holds her two great fears at bay. Yet, as the infatuation evaporates, those fears return and you find yourself triggering her anger no matter what you do. 

Hence, if your W has strong BPD traits, as you suspect, you had to have been ignoring huge red flags that likely occurred nearly every two weeks for six years. I therefore am interested in hearing what you have to say about overlooked red flags after you finish reading your copy of _Stop Walking on Eggshells._ I also am interested in her response to your announcement that her annual trip to Europe is cancelled. To avoid hijacking Berilo's thread any further, I would be glad to discuss her possible BPD traits with you in your "Wife Came Clean" thread if you want to pursue this further.


----------



## Berilo

Well, I told her yesterday that things are definitively over. She seemed shocked, and started to dissolve in the ways that Uptown warned could happen.

As set out in the thread above, I have been separated for five months. I was generally distant during this time, but civil as possible and accessible for brief conversations on "business" matters (fortunately, we have no children). Somehow, she has misconstrued all of this time to be a kind of long vacation or sabbatical for me. (Like, ???!!!)

She is now trying to draw me back in. She even expected me to go on a vacation that we had planned and purchased six months ago, a few weeks before we split. She called me from the airport last week asking when I was coming, acting as if the past six months had not happened at all. (!!!!!!)

Edit: Oh, another nugget from her call: she blames the OM for breaking us up, citing "male rivalry". Now that's some deflection of responsibility! If it wasn't so sad, I would have burst out laughing!


So now, she is calling from vacation, and I had to tell her the definitive news that papers will be there for her when she returns.

Other than railing at me for ruining her vacation (!!!), she is hot and cold with the commentary. Last night she cried desperately, for an hour, on the phone. She said -- for the first time ever -- that she has a big problem with abandonment, but pushes away the very people she doesn't want to abandon her. She apologized for all that she has done to me in this way. She said she realizes she has not been a good wife to me.

This admission was a surprise to me, but way too little, way too late.

I said that I was sorry things had come to this, and thanked her for the apology, but I had to rebuild my life.

This morning I got a nasty email, criticizing me, asking me if I have a girlfriend, if I am going bankrupt, etc. I didn't respond. I won't take the bait. I will just continue to be businesslike, and even reduce the frequency of phone calls.

The emotional whiplash is excruciating, but I am continuing to move on ...


----------



## Uptown

Berilo, thanks for the update. I'm pleased to hear that you've stood firm and have finally given her notice that the divorce papers are on their way. Yes, the process of walking away from a sick loved one -- even one who is frequently abusive -- is very sad and at times excruciatingly painful. I'm so sorry you are having to go through such a painful process. 

Your life should improve dramatically, however, once you get the divorce behind you. Indeed, I imagine it has already improved a great deal as a result of your decision to separate many months ago. Hold the course. You are doing as well as can be expected in such a messy, difficult process.


----------



## lordmayhem

Now Mr Wonderful (OM) can be the one to deal with her issues.


----------



## Berilo

lordmayhem said:


> Now Mr Wonderful (OM) can be the one to deal with her issues.


And isn't it funny how she doesn't quite seem to like him as much as she did before?

:rofl:


----------



## Complexity

Classic Princess syndrome lol


----------



## Berilo

Complexity said:


> Classic Princess syndrome lol


I was thinking the same thing: this has been almost a text-book case of cake-eating, I-deserve-everything, you-aren't-making-me-happy, you're-a-jerk, and -- WHAT? -- you're leaving? OH NO!!! DON'T LEAVE ME!!! AHHHHHHH..... You were such a wonderful guy ....

Again, if it weren't so enormously sad and exhausting, it would be funny.


----------



## Complexity

Berilo said:


> I was thinking the same thing: this has been almost a text-book case of cake-eating, I-deserve-everything, you-aren't-making-me-happy, you're-a-jerk, and -- WHAT? -- you're leaving? OH NO!!! DON'T LEAVE ME!!! AHHHHHHH..... You were such a wonderful guy ....
> 
> Again, if it weren't so enormously sad and exhausting, it would be funny.


Her apology (finally) is a good sign I suppose. You made the right decision though, I fear she will bounce from one man to another for a long time, I also predict she will become very stalkish post divorce, her mood swings are an indication of this. I know the princess type very well for some reason, I don't know why they gravitate towards me  . 

Goodluck to you Berilo


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## morituri

Are in counseling Berilo?


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## Berilo

morituri said:


> Are in counseling Berilo?


Yes, I had a number of sessions in November and December. I took January off, and will go back in two weeks for more. Counselling has been very useful, to blow off steam, be able to talk about some other ugly details I haven't shared here (but same kind of stuff), get some positive reinforcement, and start to move on with my life.

I suggest everyone in my situation do the same, despite the cost.

Thanks for asking, Morituri.


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## Berilo

Complexity said:


> I also predict she will become very stalkish post divorce, her mood swings are an indication of this.


You could be right, unfortunately: after sort-of ignoring me for a month or two, she is taking an inordinate interest in my life. Where are you? Who were you talking to on the phone? What are you doing next week?

I either don't answer, or I give a chuckle, or I say something like "the pizza parlour for a large veggie with red peppers, hold the pineapple, but extra tomatoes ... "


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## Uptown

Berilo said:


> This has been almost a text-book case of ... you're-a-jerk, and -- WHAT? -- you're leaving? OH NO!!! DON'T LEAVE ME!!!


Yes, Berilo, that's why the #2 best-selling BPD textbook (targeted to spouses and ex-partners like us) is called _I Hate You, Don't Leave Me!_


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## Berilo

Yes Uptown, and by far the weirdest experience in my life ...


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## pidge70

Uptown said:


> Yes, Berilo, that's why the #2 best-selling BPD textbook (targeted to spouses and ex-partners like us) is called _I Hate You, Don't Leave Me!_


I read that book, I cried almost all the way through it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Uptown

Berilo, if you are still dropping by here occasionally, please give us an update of your situation if you have time. I am wondering whether your divorce from your BPDer W is still on track and whether you are continuing to heal from the bruising encounters.


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## Berilo

Uptown said:


> Berilo, if you are still dropping by here occasionally, please give us an update of your situation if you have time. I am wondering whether your divorce from your BPDer W is still on track and whether you are continuing to heal from the bruising encounters.


Uptown,

Many thanks for thinking of me. I actually had taken a break from TAM -- and many other things that reminded me of my marriage -- while I took a nice vacation.

I am doing ok on the whole. The divorce is moving ahead, but slowly. She's not fighting it. And since we have a fundamental balance of assets, she has a very good job, and we have no kids, there won't be much to fight about. I am ok with it moving slowly (but steadily) along, as I don't want to provoke anything that could set it all back.

The one thing that is worrying me, however, is that somehow I don't think she recognizes (even now) that it is O-V-E-R. She still wears her wedding ring. She is still alternately hot and cold to me, just like when we were married. She sends photos to me by email of moments she liked when we were together. Most tellingly, she still hasn't told her mother (who lives in a different city) that we're separated. Apparently, I like to travel a lot on business ...

I see her about once every two weeks, always in a public place (like an office or Starbucks), and just for a cup of coffee. We don't talk about much, just "business stuff" and "how-are-you-doing". Sometimes it seems like old times. Usually she dresses stunningly for these events -- last week in a nice dress I got her for Christmas 2010. This choice was no accident, I am sure.

I know the above paragraph will provoke a cascade of comments saying "why don't you ignore her completely"? Well, Uptown, I think you know why not: things are going my way and I don't want to jeopardize a "good thing": I have been separated for just over 7 months, the divorce is in process, I have taken control of my assets, and I am moving on with my life.

Yes, she is still complicating things. As you predicted, she is trying to turn some of my not-so-close colleagues and friends against me. One guy who I worked with in another company (not any more) who is a nice guy -- he and his wife were very kind to my wife and I after we got married. Now I hear that my ex and he are calling and Skyping each other, and that how she had to cry on his shoulder last month because I "went on vacation without her". What kind of stupid, cold-hearted man am I anyway?

Now I didn't tell this guy about our marriage breakdown or her "issues" because he now works in another company and I don't see him much. But I can tell from the one time I saw him recently -- in a group setting -- that something has happened. I actually wouldn't be surprised at all if she is having some kind of affair with him. I don't have enough evidence to act on anything, and since I am separated from my ex, I don't think it's really any of my business any more. I would, however, welcome the opportunity to set the record straight with this guy. The problem, Uptown, as you know, is that if I am seen to destroy her therapeutic f*ck on the side, I could have a potential explosion on my hands. I need to keep focused on what's right for me.

I am continuing to feel slightly better every month, not necessarily every week. I still think about the good times -- they were very good -- and occasionally backslide into feelings of "could I have made it work?". Especially when I see her for a coffee and she looks like a model and acts her charming best. Then I do things like read this thread again and my stomach churns. But I get back on track.

I am also slowly getting the word out among my family and close friends and colleagues -- I like to do it by one-on-one conversations at the right moment, not by big broadcasts or declarations -- about what really happened. They are all generally very sympathetic, which has helped a lot.

I'm actually starting to feel like maybe I should date again, casually anyway. But I think I'll wait until the summer or autumn, as I don't want to complicate anything, and need to feel like I am ready.

So, all is ok, I am still moving forward, the bruises are healing all too slowly, but they are.

All the best to you and the other kind people on TAM who helped me through this most difficult period of my life.

- Berilo


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## Uptown

Berilo, thanks so much for the wonderfully detailed update. I am very pleased to hear that you are doing so well in your healing process. Yes, it sure sounds to me as though you are doing the right thing in being careful not to provoke her -- as long as she is being reasonable on the D settlement. 

Until you are free of the legal entanglement with her, it is prudent to be cautious with an emotionally unstable person. Again, I wish the very best for both of you. Take care, Berilo.


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## Berilo

Berilo said:


> The one thing that is worrying me, however, is that somehow I don't think she recognizes (even now) that it is O-V-E-R. She still wears her wedding ring. She is still alternately hot and cold to me, just like when we were married. She sends photos to me by email of moments she liked when we were together. Most tellingly, she still hasn't told her mother (who lives in a different city) that we're separated. Apparently, I like to travel a lot on business ...
> 
> I see her about once every two weeks, always in a public place (like an office or Starbucks), and just for a cup of coffee. We don't talk about much, just "business stuff" and "how-are-you-doing". Sometimes it seems like old times. Usually she dresses stunningly for these events -- last week in a nice dress I got her for Christmas 2010. This choice was no accident, I am sure.


Something seems to have happened on her side over the past few weeks. I think reality is finally sinking in and we are moving definitively apart.

Somehow I thought maybe she might "hit rock bottom" -- as some in this thread have suggested -- and maybe see clearly what had been going on with her and our marriage. Not that we would reconcile (although part of one's heart always craves a happily-ever-after ending) but maybe things could be left on a bittersweet, mutually respectful note. You know, when you remember the good times, not the bad ones, and move on gracefully.

And it would have been very helpful (therapeutic) for me to have had some kind of closure on the issues that drove us apart. I wasn't looking for any massive apology or to exact Treaty of Versailles style reparations, but just some kind of acknowledgement of the pain that she caused us, she caused me. It would have been balm on my wounds that have not yet fully healed.

We had our coffee last week, and we got talking and it expanded into a light lunch. It was, once again, almost like old times. But I did notice that her wedding ring was off. I commented and asked her half-jokingly if she was seeing someone. She dodged the question. She then admitted that she was lonely, missing companionship, sex, etc. I said I understood that myself. Anyway, I told her I was extremely sorry things didn't work out, but that I had tried to be the best husband I could be. But maybe our personalities just didn't combine so well, that each of us had different needs and expectations.

She agreed that we didn't appear to be cut out for each other. She stumbled and muttered that she was sorry if she had always been ....[not finished]. I waited for her to complete the sentence, but she didn't. We proceeded to the soft-focus teary-eyed moment and embrace, and then we went our separate ways. I certainly felt awful.

She called me soon afterwards, at the office, to ask me how I was feeling. I said I was feeling sad, that this was all very difficult for me, as I had had the very best intentions for our marriage when we started. I didn't wallow in any further detail, just tried to be nice, heartfelt, and civil. She had to catch another call at work, so said she would call me back. I didn't think we had much of anything further to talk about, but wanted to leave things on a consonant note if possible.

Anyway, an hour later she calls me back. I thought she'd just say something like, "well, I am glad we had that talk, good luck to you, catch you again in a few weeks". But she didn't. She was aggressive. Once again, she calmly spewed the litany of criticisms about me: how she can't live with a man who doesn't communicate, doesn't like to talk, has no need for affection or sex, doesn't come home, and puts his career over his family life. Once again, whether or not these criticisms are valid or hogwash, there was nothing about her serial infidelity, her insatiable neediness, her pathological twisting of the truth, her failure to be there for me when I needed her, her enforcement of a double standard on our marriage. I of course, didn't remind her of any of this marriage-destroying conduct, preferring to repeat that I was sorry that our personal styles don't seem to get on so well together.

That whole exchange really threw me for a loop. More whiplash.

And today I heard from a mutual friend that she has changed her status on Facebook over the weekend to being "in a relationship". (She un-friended me on Facebook six months ago.) So I was probably correct on the ring thing, she is seeing someone else and might be trying to bring him slowly into some public legitimacy. (Is it "Mr Wonderful" the OM, or a recent acquisition? I am betting the latter ... )

Needless to say, that hurt me, despite the fact that we are, or have been, splitting up. But this is the first time she seems to be broadcasting it. What was private is now about to become public.

I am not sure exactly why I am writing this out to you all. I am not changing course, and not really looking for any major advice here. But once again, I need to express my profound feeling that this whole saga is just so wrong. It still makes no sense at all to me. I am searching for answers I don't think I will ever find. 

And as I have said before, the serial emotional whiplash hurts as much as the fact of splitting up itself.

Any observations or comments would be welcome. I am trying to deal with all this remaining pain and consternation now, hopefully to expunge it from my system so I can continue to move on with my life as I want to, as I will do.


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## Uptown

> We proceeded to the soft-focus teary-eyed moment and embrace....Anyway, an hour later she calls me back. ...Once again, she calmly spewed the litany of criticisms about me.... More whiplash.


Berilo, as we discussed weeks ago, it is pointless to worry about leaving her on a friendly note, trying to leave a good last impression. With BPDers, there is no such thing as a lasting impression. Whatever mood or attitude you leave her with will soon be washed aside by the next emotional tide flowing through her mind. 

In this case, you saw it last about an hour. That's the way it is with emotionally unstable people. My advice, then, is to not go out of your way to deliberately provoke her but, aside from that, it really doesn't matter -- at all -- if you get any "soft focus" moments on the very last visit. Sad, I know, but it is what it is.


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## Berilo

Uptown said:


> In this case, you saw it last about an hour. That's the way it is with emotionally unstable people. My advice, then, is to not go out of your way to deliberately provoke her but, aside from that, it really doesn't matter -- at all -- if you get any "soft focus" moments on the very last visit. Sad, I know, but it is what it is.


Uptown,

You are right that there is no point in me expecting anything to be different than it has been. I guess I am still just craving some emotional resolution for myself while trying to make the practical exit as easy as possible for both of us. But as you and others have told me, and I tell myself, I need to move on and let this ragged chapter in my life fade away at its own irregular pace ...

- B


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## lovelygirl

Berilo said:


> Unfortunately, I have little confidence that my wife has the conscience to "come clean" with my mere triangulation of curious facts, "coincidences", etc. She will almost certainly tell me I am imagining things, I am jealous, I am blowing it out of proportion, etc. And I don't think a general, sincere declaration from me of "I love you, let's work on our marriage" will stop this train.


Yeah, cheaters use the same arguments when they get defensive.


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## OldWolf57

man you are such a girl, sure you don't want to rock the boat, but dude I have never seen as much enabling as I've seen between you and uptown and your STBXW. I will say this, with all admiration though, you truly are in touch with your fem side. so plz try to connect with your inner male before you get into another relationship. and when you talked about the 180 not working, that's bc you was looking for it to work on her, and that is not what it's for. it's to get the OP to detach an focus on themselves. I'm sorry if I offended you, but if you go back and read this stuff, you will see why I said it. In a aside, I TRULY wish you the BEST. REALLY YOU DESERVE IT !!!


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## Berilo

OldWolf57 said:


> man you are such a girl, sure you don't want to rock the boat, but dude I have never seen as much enabling as I've seen between you and uptown and your STBXW. I will say this, with all admiration though, you truly are in touch with your fem side. so plz try to connect with your inner male before you get into another relationship. and when you talked about the 180 not working, that's bc you was looking for it to work on her, and that is not what it's for. it's to get the OP to detach an focus on themselves. I'm sorry if I offended you, but if you go back and read this stuff, you will see why I said it. In a aside, I TRULY wish you the BEST. REALLY YOU DESERVE IT !!!


Thank you for the views, OldWolf, and the good wishes. No offence taken. I welcome hearing many viewpoints, and make up my own mind on what I can take from any of them.

Whatever the characteristics of the approach I took, it has worked for me. It hasn't been easy, but it got me to where I wanted to be, with what I think is the least collateral damage. You might call that "girly" -- I call it smart.

To use a macho military analogy that might better suit what appears to be your style, in the words of the famous late British military strategist Sir Basil Liddell Hart: "In strategy, the longest way round can often be the shortest way home."

And the decidedly unfeminine Sun Tzu, in his classic "The Art of War", had numerous similar wise maxims to offer on the potentially decisive value of observation, preparation, and stealth with focus and purpose.

Best wishes to you as well.


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## BambooScot

I been thinking about your post all day. I think its funny that she said you are a poor communicator. From your posts it seems like you are very articulate. She probably means that you fail her manipulation and dont fall into her bizaro world arguements. Do you think she flipped out on you on the later phone call because she was reflecting on the previous conversations that day and was frustrated that she wasnt getting the reaction she wanted. 

Do you think any guy will stick around very long once they see the bizarro woman a time or two.

Calm seas and following winds.


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## OldWolf57

I stand corrected Berilo. you are well read, I guess I just got caughtup in how much you kept letting her hurt you, after you identified her mental instability. I just wanted your pain to go away.


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## Berilo

BambooScot said:


> I been thinking about your post all day. I think its funny that she said you are a poor communicator. From your posts it seems like you are very articulate. She probably means that you fail her manipulation and dont fall into her bizaro world arguements. Do you think she flipped out on you on the later phone call because she was reflecting on the previous conversations that day and was frustrated that she wasnt getting the reaction she wanted.
> 
> Do you think any guy will stick around very long once they see the bizarro woman a time or two.
> 
> Calm seas and following winds.


Thank you very much, BambooScot.

I think her allegation that I "don't communicate", "can't talk", etc., is really a combination of things: 1) as you say, it's because I didn't fall for her manipulation any more -- the buttons she would press just wouldn't work, which frustrated her no end; 2) call me a guy (_pace_ OldWolf), but I dislike faux emotion, the display or provocation of positive or negative emotion from anyone over age 13 that is significantly disproportionate to any reasonable and sympathetic interpretation of what is really going on. I just don't react much in these situations; 3) she was so needy, requiring constant attention (like calling me during business meetings just to chat) -- I often didn't pick up; and 4) since many conversations weren't that, they just devolved into a unilateral arraignment of my supposed infractions or shortcomings, I just entered a plea of "no contest" and got up to fetch myself a coffee or glass of wine.

I think she flipped out on the second phone call because, as I believe Uptown will confirm, people with this kind of disorder cannot sustain "normal", balanced, warm feelings about their partner for very long. I think she started to feel either "engulfed" by a very nice moment (kind of like the "good days") which threatened her, so she had to push back; OR my conduct didn't follow her negative mental "script" of who I am, so she had to create a situation where I could be force-fit back into my role as the bad guy. This is a rinse cycle I have been immersed in too many times.

And I agree that my "lucky" successors probably won't last even as long as I did: they will surely flee when they open the gorgeous matryoshka doll two or three sets and see the revealed bizarro woman glaring at them. I had to laugh during our last coffee session. She was at the café early and was on a very involved conversation when I arrived. I caught some fragments of the conversation when I first sat down and then got the coffee. I pretended to work on my laptop for a few minutes, suppressing a wry chortle all the while, to see what I could learn. She was working someone over for some perceived shortcoming or slight, and it did not at all sound like a colleague. And it was delivered in that intimate tone that I know she never uses on casual friends or colleagues (she is the very picture of even sweetness in those). The clincher was that she got up and went outside for a minute, no doubt to deliver the punch-lines to the poor ******. When she returned, she began to stammer an explanation. I just smiled and said, "hey, no problem, this gave me a good chance to check out the stock market -- did you see what Apple is doing today?"


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## MattMatt

Zombie thread. 

Zombie dog calls for it to be closed before he finishes the windows.


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