# If you are in a good marriage,



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

do you ever wonder why your spouse loves you as much as they do?

You know your faults. You know your inadequacies. And the person you are with surely knows them, too, and then some!

Yet he or she just seems to love you no matter what. And you know you don't deserve it. 

Has anyone made sense of this mystery?


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## cons (Aug 13, 2013)

It's the same as how you love your spouse, with his/her inadequacies....

...I guess I just choose to love my husband, inclusive of his flaws, shortcomings, etc. and am so blessed to be loved fully by him with all of my crap as well.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

cons said:


> It's the same as how you love your spouse, with his/her inadequacies....
> 
> ...I guess I just choose to love my husband, inclusive of his flaws, shortcomings, etc. and am so blessed to be loved fully by him with all of my crap as well.


Do you feel like you choose it, cons? Or does it just happen without your really even thinking about it?


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## MrsAldi (Apr 15, 2016)

Yes, it's called unconditional love. 
My marriage has this. 
We both love each other unconditionally. 
We know that we can not find any better than each other. 

Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

jld said:


> do you ever wonder why your spouse loves you as much as they do?
> 
> You know your faults. You know your inadequacies. And the person you are with surely knows them, too, and then some!
> 
> ...


I'm a mixed bag and accept that. I accept that he is too... I'd say most of us are! What that means, in terms of what is acceptable or not, varies among people and couples. At times he's more accepting of me than I am of myself and same goes for him.

I don't consider that he'd love me no matter what. There's accountability and mutual respect (as well as self-respect) to be considered here. Yet with my imperfections, there's also a lot to give. It's a mixed bag. Just as it is with him. Am I worthy of receiving love? Absolutely - we both are. 


In other words, the sense to the mystery is.... to settle. I kid!


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Honestly, I don't wonder at all. I have very healthy self esteem, am very self aware and not typically a self deprecating person. I know exactly what I bring to the table in a relationship, and I wouldn't be in a relationship with someone where that love wasn't essentially inevitable. Another thing to consider is that for every perceived fault a person has, their partner is likely aware of it, but may not actually see it as a fault.

I also accept that I would not be a good match for everyone, and that doesn't bother me in the least.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

samyeagar said:


> Another thing to consider is that for every perceived fault a person has, their partner is likely aware of it, but may not actually see it as a fault.


Very good point, Sam. Sometimes what other people criticize us for is exactly what our partner values in us.


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## TX-SC (Aug 25, 2015)

Today is our 20th wedding anniversary and we are deeply in love. Yes, we recognize each other's weaknesses, but they don't distract from the relationship. In fact, I think the weaknesses tend to attract us even more.


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## cons (Aug 13, 2013)

jld said:


> Do you feel like you choose it, cons? Or does it just happen without your really even thinking about it?


I think when things are going well...it can be feel like it is just happening without even thinking about it. But the REAL love...the actionable love....comes when there is adversity, disagreements, hurts, etc...THAT is when I choose to love...I am not perfect in that loving...neither is my husband....but because we choose to love the other during those down times (when insecurities rear their ugly heads) or when we just aren't our higher selves. 

That choosing makes all the difference!


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

I would like to experience this just once. Never have had that but always hope for the future


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Choosing would be better described as due diligence... all the love in the world isn't enough to handle skeletons in the closet.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

cons said:


> I think when things are going well...it can be feel like it is just happening without even thinking about it. But the REAL love...the actionable love....comes when there is adversity, disagreements, hurts, etc...THAT is when I choose to love...I am not perfect in that loving...neither is my husband....but because we choose to love the other during those down times (when insecurities rear their ugly heads) or when we just aren't our higher selves.
> 
> That choosing makes all the difference!


Very nice, cons. Thanks for your answer.

I can only think of one circumstance when I would say I chose to love (or at least put up with ) my husband. Otherwise it just happens. I don't really feel any control over it. 

I do think he is in total control over my loving him. If he did not inspire my love, it just would not be there at all.


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## Betrayedone (Jan 1, 2014)

These are all very good responses and there is no right or wrong answer. I honestly believe, however, that to say that there is only one person in the world that is our perfect match is just plain wrong. I think there are many, many people in the world that could be our match. The difficulty is finding them........


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## cons (Aug 13, 2013)

I think the other side of the love coin is respect...if my husband didn't respect me (whether it's an opinion during a disagreement, or a boundary for being hurtful) then the choice to love him would be a difficult one. 

For a relationship to last (especially an intimate one such as marriage), you can't have one without the other.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

john117 said:


> Choosing would be better described as due diligence... all the love in the world isn't enough to handle skeletons in the closet.


I showed my husband all my skeletons first thing. If I were going to be rejected, I wanted it to happen right away.

But his love was stronger than those skeletons.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

cons said:


> I think the other side of the love coin is respect...if my husband didn't respect me (whether it's an opinion during a disagreement, or a boundary for being hurtful) then the choice to love him would be a difficult one.
> 
> For a relationship to last (especially an intimate one such as marriage), you can't have one without the other.


For me, love follows respect. I could not love a man I did not respect.


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

TX-SC said:


> Today is our 20th wedding anniversary and we are deeply in love. Yes, we recognize each other's weaknesses, but they don't distract from the relationship. In fact, I think the weaknesses tend to attract us even more.


Happy anniversary!

Do I wonder, not really. The question comes up regularly on TAM, does the good outweigh the bad (faults). For us if the bad needle creeps up, not talking anywhere near 50%, like maybe double digits, it's time to talk. 

Hadn't thought of it in terms of weaknesses, but we are complementary for the most there. (Typo fixed, but we are also often complimentary )


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## RainbowBrite (Dec 30, 2015)

Deleted


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

jld said:


> I showed my husband all my skeletons first thing. If I were going to be rejected, I wanted it to happen right away.
> 
> But his love was stronger than those skeletons.


There are skeletons and then there are skeletons....

Especially those we don't know about.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

With us we have been to hell and back and survived to tell about it. I contribute it to just how strong our bond is to each other. AND our Faith...


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

I am very stubborn, cynical, and difficult to love. Basically someone would have to actually appreciate these qualities about me rather than see past them if there is any chance of a relationship getting off the ground, let alone surviving.

It's very, very important to me to be accepted for who and what I am, and in turn, I do my best to return the favour.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

jld said:


> I showed my husband all my skeletons first thing. If I were going to be rejected, I wanted it to happen right away.


Ha ha, I did the same thing. He called me up to ask me on a date, and I told him flat out "you do not want to date me.". He asked "why not?", and I gave him a list of reasons why. A long list. 

No point in wasting time.


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## cons (Aug 13, 2013)

always_alone said:


> I am very stubborn, cynical, and difficult to love. Basically someone would have to actually appreciate these qualities about me rather than see past them if there is any chance of a relationship getting off the ground, let alone surviving.
> 
> It's very, very important to me to be accepted for who and what I am, and in turn, I do my best to return the favour.


Exactly!

It's the difference of being loved and accepted INCLUSIVE of my flaws/inadequacies rather than in spite of my flaws/inadequacies.


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## coupdegrace (Oct 15, 2012)

I would like to think that my positive attributes FAR outweigh my negative ones. In addition, I've never been a rebel with the law, experimented with drugs or smoked anything. My best friend is constantly telling me how much he admires me because I take care of my Mom and sister, but I don't think I'm deserving of such praise. I'm just a guy that takes care of business and does what he can to help make things easier for his family.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

If we focus on flaws / inadequacies love can often overcome those. But not always. Try dealing with systemic issues like mental health disorders. Oops. Punt. Or serious FOO issues. Punt.

The issue is not as much the presence of skeletons but the fact that said skeletons are actively fighting against your efforts. This is a very important consideration. 

I fell into this trap myself. I did not consider (at first) whether the problems were fixable if one side only worked at it. I took the ****y approach, thinking that my superb people skills and psych education would help me fix my relationship. Far from it, the exact opposite happened. 

It's like Angry Birds 2. Without the proper bird sequence you aren't going to clear the level regardless of skill.

Look at success statistics for Cluster B disorders. Not encouraging. Definitely worth a try but you often reach the point of no return regardless of your choices.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

OliviaG said:


> Yes, I've wondered and I've marvelled about his capacity to love me no matter what. I don't know how I got so lucky as to be loved by him, a man who knows what's really important in life and won't be distracted from it, a man who knows how to truly love.
> 
> Recently, in a fit of anger and frustration I said some things that really hurt him. It was so bad that I felt physically ill for a couple of days and wondered if I'd made it impossible for him to love me. I half expected him not to come home one night when he was later than usual - that's how bad it was. But he forgave me and quickly. And the next thing I knew, *he* was reassuring *me* that he was glad I'd said those things because they were truthful even though they hurt him, and now he understood me better. That's love. And I don't deserve it.


That was mature of him, to thank you for being honest with him even though it hurt him. The truth often hurts.


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## TBT (Dec 20, 2011)

jld said:


> do you ever wonder why your spouse loves you as much as they do?
> *
> You know your faults. You know your inadequacies.* And the person you are with surely knows them, too, and then some!
> 
> ...


I think it's because the spouse sees that the other makes a sincere attempt to mitigate them and change when possible. jmo.


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

cons said:


> It's the same as how you love your spouse, with his/her inadequacies....
> 
> ...I guess I just choose to love my husband, inclusive of his flaws, shortcomings, etc. and am so blessed to be loved fully by him with all of my crap as well.


This. Neither of us are perfect, but we're perfect for each other. 



cons said:


> I think when things are going well...it can be feel like it is just happening without even thinking about it. But the REAL love...the actionable love....comes when there is adversity, disagreements, hurts, etc...THAT is when I choose to love...I am not perfect in that loving...neither is my husband....but because we choose to love the other during those down times (when insecurities rear their ugly heads) or when we just aren't our higher selves.
> 
> That choosing makes all the difference!


SO true!! I said to my husband just the other day when he was comforting me after a hormonal meltdown that it's his job to love me even when I'm not very loveable, hehehe - he grinned and agreed  And vice versa. We've just come through a rough patch, and it was very rocky there for a bit, I was very scared but I love him with all my heart and he's a good man...that was when I was conscious of the fact that I chose him, for better or for worse, I love him to bits, and we're in this for life.


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

Wolf1974 said:


> I would like to experience this just once. Never have had that but always hope for the future


Not even when you were married?  I think my heart just broke a little, lol.


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

jld said:


> do you ever wonder why your spouse loves you as much as they do?
> 
> You know your faults. You know your inadequacies. And the person you are with surely knows them, too, and then some!
> 
> ...


Actually I do deserve it :x


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

frusdil said:


> Not even when you were married?  I think my heart just broke a little, lol.


No. I think my X was broken by her past. She doesn't love herself so how could she love another. It would be nice to one day meet a woman who would put our realtionship above all else. Maybe someday :|


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## jdawg2015 (Feb 12, 2015)

TX-SC, not to be a killjoy but since your wife had and affair which is a death blow for many in the relationship, how does that play into your calculus as a good marriage.



TX-SC said:


> Today is our 20th wedding anniversary and we are deeply in love. Yes, we recognize each other's weaknesses, but they don't distract from the relationship. In fact, I think the weaknesses tend to attract us even more.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

"And you know you don't deserve it."

This disturbs me. Is it a self-esteem issue? 

As far as you're concerned, you bore him five children. You deserve all the loving you can get.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Blondilocks said:


> "And you know you don't deserve it."
> 
> This disturbs me. Is it a self-esteem issue?
> 
> As far as you're concerned, you bore him five children. You deserve all the loving you can get.


Yes, I think so. I have been thinking about that ever since Sam mentioned it.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

I don't think love is unconditional, that said we are no less deserving of love than any of our partners.


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## jdawg2015 (Feb 12, 2015)

Totally agree with this.




Personal said:


> I don't think love is unconditional, that said we are no less deserving of love than any of our partners.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

jdawg2015 said:


> TX-SC, not to be a killjoy but since your wife had and affair which is a death blow for many in the relationship, how does that play into your calculus as a good marriage.


There are many types of destructive choices that can be made in marriages, an affair is just one of the types. When the destructive partner gains the desire and skill to no longer be destructive, great marriages are definitely possible. Especially after heightened self awareness. Give me my enlightened current husband over my still in the dark ex any day of the week.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jdawg2015 (Feb 12, 2015)

There are some people who can get past affairs so I don't doubt it. But to get there means problems in the marriage (or a narcisstic person).

Agree an affair is not the only path to problems.

One common thing I know about long term good marriages from the outside view is they are seen as a pair. Doing things together. In fact whenever you see them, they come as a pair 95% of the time.



Blossom Leigh said:


> There are many types of destructive choices that can be made in marriages, an affair is just one of the types. When the destructive partner gains the desire and skill to no longer be destructive, great marriages are definitely possible. Especially after heightened self awareness. Give me my enlightened current husband over my still in the dark ex any day of the week.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

jdawg2015 said:


> There are some people who can get past affairs so I don't doubt it. But to get there means problems in the marriage (or a narcisstic person).
> 
> Agree an affair is not the only path to problems.
> 
> One common thing I know about long term good marriages from the outside view is they are seen as a pair. Doing things together. In fact whenever you see them, they come as a pair 95% of the time.


I see all marriages as having issues. Some are just more severe. Some are destroyed on the less severe and some survive even the severe. It truly rests in the capacity and willingness of both to create a good marriage. Either from the get go or out of the ashes of destruction. I believe it boils down to vision and priority, thus the togetherness. And bonding is still mysterious. Even through our worst we were tightly bonded.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

jld said:


> do you ever wonder why your spouse loves you as much as they do?
> 
> You know your faults. You know your inadequacies. And the person you are with surely knows them, too, and then some!
> 
> ...


Deserve?

Deservedness is the creation of the Wielder of the hand tool, not [he or she] which is the Sculpted Judgement.

We own our Image but not the Reflection. The Reflection that another Viewer interprets and Reflects.....On.

In a total vacuum.....we have no value, no faults and no purpose. It is the introduction of another [sentient being] that permits such value or judgements.

You know that you do not deserve it? Keep that part to yourself!

Why cut your own throat? ....lest you savor your own masochistic machinations.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

jld said:


> I showed my husband all my skeletons first thing. If I were going to be rejected, I wanted it to happen right away.
> 
> But his love was stronger than those skeletons.


It is the skeletons that flesh out the man or women, else we be misshapen and misinterpreted. 

The outer man reflects the inner and trued form.

And the reflection is a true one. A good basis for an honest relationship.

Secrets eventually break through the skin, giving rise to suspicion and doubts....doubts are love killers.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Our own skeletons - not our partner's - help us become stronger.
.


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## joannacroc (Dec 17, 2014)

Awwww. You guys warm the ****les of my grizzled, bitter little heart.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

I think some of the posters have touched on the gist of this issue. It really does come down to self love and self respect. I know in my own story, that I had often felt like something must be wrong with my now ex-wife to want to be with someone as messed up as I am/was. My whole sense of self was shattered at that point in my life by various issues that I did not deal with successfully or at least as successfully as I should have. Now going forward, I am once again beginning to see that I have a lot to offer the world. But I guess that feeling has not congealed yet, because I still find myself at times wondering why the woman I am dating is always complimenting me. I know my self esteem is not rock solid yet and there are still sore spots that have not completely healed yet.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Ynot said:


> I think some of the posters have touched on the gist of this issue. It really does come down to self love and self respect. I know in my own story, that I had often felt like something must be wrong with my now ex-wife to want to be with someone as messed up as I am/was. My whole sense of self was shattered at that point in my life by various issues that I did not deal with successfully or at least as successfully as I should have. Now going forward, I am once again beginning to see that I have a lot to offer the world. But I guess that feeling has not congealed yet, because I still find myself at times wondering why the woman I am dating is always complimenting me. I know my self esteem is not rock solid yet and there are still sore spots that have not completely healed yet.


Great point and we all have either participated in or heard stories of self destruction and others destruction that burst forth out of lack of self love. Its definitely a layer. A big one.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

jdawg2015 said:


> One common thing I know about long term good marriages from the outside view is they are seen as a pair. Doing things together. In fact whenever you see them, they come as a pair 95% of the time.


In a normal week we are apart about 20 hours.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

CharlieParker said:


> In a normal week we are apart about 20 hours.


That's a sweet deal you got. 

We're apart longer with work and commute. Lately we phone one another on the way home though... catch up on the day, it's just good hearing each others voice really. At least, from this perspective.


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## RainbowBrite (Dec 30, 2015)

Deleted


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## cons (Aug 13, 2013)

john117 said:


> If we focus on flaws / inadequacies love can often overcome those. But not always. Try dealing with systemic issues like mental health disorders. Oops. Punt. Or serious FOO issues. Punt.
> 
> The issue is not as much the presence of skeletons but the fact that said skeletons are actively fighting against your efforts. This is a very important consideration.
> 
> ...


I agree that skeletons (the big ones) are a huge mountains to climb in a relationship. 

The key factor is how willing the individual is to deal with those issues...

My ex had big FOO issues and very poor coping skills to navigate his low self-esteem...to the point that is was devastating to our marriage because he didn't want to tackle the issue and find a way to grow beyond it.

My current husband also has big FOO issues, but it's night and day difference, because 1) he already had done some work on himself before we married 2) when he chooses to fall back on those poor coping skills- he's open to hear how that impacts each of us as well as our coupleship.

My husband also brought in some good techniques for us to communicate better when we are having difficulty hearing/listening to each other...it's imperfect, but we get to the other side (perhaps with a few bumps and bruises)...but we make amends with each other...and we heal...

I am a much better woman, wife, mother, sister, friend, coworker with my husband beside me than I have ever been before.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

OliviaG said:


> Funny, I came out with my skeletons too, although not first thing; it was when he started talking about loving me, and marriage. I told him he should think long and hard about it before saying that and that I wouldn't hold him to it because he didn't know what he was getting himself into. And then I let him know exactly what he was getting himself into with me.


How did he react?
@always_alone, that question is for you, too.


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## RainbowBrite (Dec 30, 2015)

Deleted


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

OliviaG said:


> He is such a good man, and - I've said this before, IRL, and I mean it - in many ways, he's taught me how to love.


Would you like to give some examples?


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

jld said:


> How did he react?
> 
> @always_alone, that question is for you, too.


I don't remember exactly, but he asked me why I would say that, and I explained more. And at the end of it all, he said something along the lines of "so, do you want to go out?"

To be honest, I'm not really sure what he was thinking, and have never asked. But he didn't seem fazed at all. And indeed, I think he genuinely enjoys my attitude.

Certainly he has never tried to change me or "fix" me, and that alone to me makes him worth his weight in gold. More even.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Going back to your OP, jld, there is no mystery as to why Dug loves you. You give him so much, and yet for some reason, you don't see it.

I've never met the man, but I bet if you ask him, he will tell you I'm right.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

always_alone said:


> I don't remember exactly, but he asked me why I would say that, and I explained more. And at the end of it all, he said something along the lines of "so, do you want to go out?"
> 
> To be honest, *I'm not really sure what he was thinking, and have never asked. * But he didn't seem fazed at all. And indeed, I think he genuinely enjoys my attitude.
> 
> Certainly he has never tried to change me or "fix" me, and that alone to me makes him worth his weight in gold. More even.


How about asking him tonight?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

always_alone said:


> Going back to your OP, jld, there is no mystery as to why Dug loves you. You give him so much, and yet for some reason, you don't see it.
> 
> I've never met the man, but I bet if you ask him, he will tell you I'm right.


Hey, thanks, aa. I think it is low self esteem, as Sam said. And I do think Dug takes me for granted, which does not help.

Gosh, it is painful to write that.


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## brooklynAnn (Jun 29, 2015)

I am always surprised by my H's ability to love me and by his kindness towards me. Even when he is dead tired, he would put my wellbeing before his. 

I hid all my skeletons from him before marriage. After marriage things came out as they often do and he was so understanding and caring. He never blamed me or looked at me differently. He continues to defend and protect me. 

I left things unsaid because I could not deal with them nor did I want him to see me as being broken or tarnished. I thought if I did not talk about them or interact with certain people, then, they did not affect my new life/marriage. How stupid I was. I did not realize that my abuser would see me happy and would want to interject himself into my new life. So, I had to explain why I could not let that person into my life or why other family members shun him. Telling it all was such a relieve and I had gain myself a protector. 

My H has taught me to be kind and gentle. How to love and give respect. Marrying him was the best thing I have ever done in my life. I am truly blessed to be with him. I try to be the wife he would be proud to love, every day.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

OliviaG said:


> Funny, I came out with my skeletons too, although not first thing; it was when he started talking about loving me, and marriage. I told him he should think long and hard about it before saying that and that I wouldn't hold him to it because he didn't know what he was getting himself into. And then I let him know exactly what he was getting himself into with me.


And once again, I'll reiterate the difference between what's a skeleton and what is standard operating procedure.

Skeleton: got bit at age 6 by neighbors dog. Hates dogs. New partner has a pair of annoying Corgis (is there any other kind?😂)... relatively simple to fix.

Mega Skeleton: crappy father and mother relationship, crappy restrictive parents. Not a big issue till you have kids, they're girls, and partner applies their FOO experience to the kids. 

Uber skeleton: FOO mental illness issues that appeared normal behavior while growing up.

And so on...


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

john117 said:


> And once again, I'll reiterate the difference between what's a skeleton and what is standard operating procedure.
> 
> Skeleton: got bit at age 6 by neighbors dog. Hates dogs. New partner has a pair of annoying Corgis (is there any other kind?😂)... relatively simple to fix.
> 
> ...


John, do you feel like the rest of us have small issues compared to yours?


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

jld said:


> And I do think Dug takes me for granted, which does not help.


I have struggled with that at times, mainly early on but it still occasionally creeps back in.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Thinking about this more, sometimes when my SO tells me he loves me, I ask him, "why would you want to do a stupid thing like that for?"

He responds, "I don't know. It isn't really a choice."

So it seems there is some mystery there.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

CharlieParker said:


> I have struggled with that at times, mainly early on but it still occasionally creeps back in.


You take your wife for granted? How, Charlie?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

always_alone said:


> Thinking about this more, sometimes when my SO tells me he loves me, I ask him, "why would you want to do a stupid thing like that for?"
> 
> He responds, "I don't know. *It isn't really a choice*."
> 
> So it seems there is some mystery there.


That's pretty nice.

Does he tell you often, aa?


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

jld said:


> John, do you feel like the rest of us have small issues compared to yours?


Clearly! Not quite sure why he thinks he's the only one who has ever had a real struggle, :scratchhead: but no doubt he does.


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## TX-SC (Aug 25, 2015)

jdawg2015 said:


> TX-SC, not to be a killjoy but since your wife had and affair which is a death blow for many in the relationship, how does that play into your calculus as a good marriage.


Neither my wife nor I ever had an affair.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

jld said:


> John, do you feel like the rest of us have small issues compared to yours?


Not all, but many.

To be blunt, a lot of TAM feels like Honda and Toyota owners complaining about reliability (the cupholder CREAKS) while the occasional European car driver would be elated to not have to fight Lord Lucas or Bosch or Magnetti Marelli on a regular basis 😂😂


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

always_alone said:


> Clearly! Not quite sure why he thinks he's the only one who has ever had a real struggle, :scratchhead: but no doubt he does.


Not the only one. Definitely not.

I have a long list of former TAM folk with similar zombie marriage stories and know the odds. Most come to TAM, find out what they're in for, and disappear. Not hard to spot trends...


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## Eagle3 (Dec 4, 2013)

I think everyone has some type of skeletons in their closets just maybe some are more serious than others. I think the key is to show and tell your partner these skeletons and get it out there. And for the one on the receiving end to accept them and support. Its easier to do this when included.

That is why I applaud the people on here that told their partner up front and early in the relationship. I think it makes a huge difference and will be good for the relationship in the long run.

I do think the one roadblock is if the person that feels they are not worthy and such is when they don't accept their partners love and understanding. At that point its not about the skeletons or anything else just simply they are not allowing their partner in.


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## thefam (Sep 9, 2014)

Ok this is really tooting my own horn but I think my husband SHOULD love me. I have always took great care to make sure he has a happy nag free home that he couldn't wait to come home to. Even before we had kids which was the first 8.5 years of our 11 year marriage I have always done 100% of the laundry, cooking and cleaning. Its pretty much the same since I have been a SAHM. 

I never turned down sex. I have never cheated or even been remotely interested in another man.

There was the issue of the GNOs getting a little out of hand and me having blinders to a some of my friends from childhood being toxic but when he called me on both issues I gave them up for the marriage. After having kids my husband still comes first. Currently we are apart but i am giving my all to hold down the fort with a 2 year old a 5 month old and one on the oven while he gets to live as a single man. So yeah I deserve his love and devotion even though I have my faults.

That being said he is a wonderful husband who appreciates me and shows it (when we are together). I have given up on the severe communication issues when we are apart. Even so, I love him with all my heart.


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

jld said:


> You take your wife for granted? How, Charlie?


At times, not in general, I've gotten much better. But yes I can lose sight of how good I have it. Kind of like running on autopilot, if that makes sense.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Eagle, agreed, but the hardest skeletons are the ones we don't know about... about ourselves. Or, skeletons we know about but think everyone else has.

One of my personal skeletons is brutally analytic decision making. To a 50's single lady it would likely appear as the result of 3+ decades of corporate America. It's not an issue. Yea, lolz. Takes emotions right out of the picture. But the reasons are far deeper. To me, everyone thinks this way.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Eagle3 said:


> I think everyone has some type of skeletons in their closets just maybe some are more serious than others. I think the key is to show and tell your partner these skeletons and get it out there. And for the one on the receiving end to accept them and support. Its easier to do this when included.
> 
> That is why I applaud the people on here that told their partner up front and early in the relationship. I think it makes a huge difference and will be good for the relationship in the long run.
> 
> I do think the one roadblock is if the person that feels they are not worthy and such is when they don't accept their partners love and understanding. At that point its not about the skeletons or anything else just simply they are not allowing their partner in.


I think it is hard to accept love when you do not feel you deserve it.

Eagle, do you feel like you deserve love?


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

I like John's perspective. He's putting voice to the fact that when you try everything possible under the sun with someone who lacks capacity versus someone who is unwilling it can feel like all other relationship problems described here are the equivalent of undercooked waffles at the local Waffle House. Attempting relational repair with someone who lacks capacity can be highly confusing and difficult. ESPECIALLY when from the outside they appear to be "the bomb." BTDT... twice.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

CharlieParker said:


> At times, not in general, I've gotten much better. But yes I can lose sight of how good I have it. Kind of like running on autopilot, if that makes sense.


Do you get lost in your own interests?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

thefam said:


> Ok this is really tooting my own horn but I think my husband SHOULD love me. I have always took great care to make sure he has a happy nag free home that he couldn't wait to come home to. Even before we had kids which was the first 8.5 years of our 11 year marriage I have always done 100% of the laundry, cooking and cleaning. Its pretty much the same since I have been a SAHM.
> 
> I never turned down sex. I have never cheated or even been remotely interested in another man.
> 
> ...


The bolded has been my life for several years.

I do not have your confidence, though, tfam. Where do you think you get it?


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## Eagle3 (Dec 4, 2013)

jld said:


> I think it is hard to accept love when you do not feel you deserve it.
> 
> Eagle, do you feel like you deserve love?


Hmm tough to say jld I don't know if I look at it as I deserve it but I work on getting it. Maybe I feel maybe more I earned it over deserve it if there is a difference I don't know.

And yes you are right its hard if one doesn't accept it to take it. I am seeing that firsthand now and I can say you are correct. You can show and tell the other person everything under the sun you love them and such but you cant make them accept it or believe it. That is where a struggle can be.


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

jld said:


> Do you get lost in your own interests?


No, that's not it. It's more an appreciation thing, hard to describe.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Not to sound snarky (my victory lap party is at the local sushi place at noon with the interns 😂) but it took 3 years for TAM to understand and express what Blossom explained so elegantly here. 

Three years ago TAM volume was easily 2x to 3x what it is today, and the heavy duty zombie marriages were far more common. A few got resolved, most didn't, and it was all generally blamed on the unfortunate non zombie spouses. 

Oh well. At least I get to.eat my height in sushi length wise today, $25 for like 5 linear feet of sushi.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Eagle3 said:


> Hmm tough to say jld I don't know if I look at it as I deserve it but I work on getting it. Maybe I feel maybe more I earned it over deserve it if there is a difference I don't know.
> 
> And yes you are right its hard if one doesn't accept it to take it. I am seeing that firsthand now and I can say you are correct. *You can show and tell the other person everything under the sun you love them and such but you cant make them accept it or believe it*. That is where a struggle can be.


That is the spot right there where my H fell. He didn't believe me. After he went back and looked at our communication and saw how affectionate I was that he just wasn't hearing it or absorbing it. He thought he was totally unlovable. And that is just not the truth and it took a while before he started knowing that he is lovable.


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## thefam (Sep 9, 2014)

@jld it really baffles me that you feel you lack confidence. I have watched you in some of the most brutal responses to your posts and even though I don't always agree with you I admire that you don't back down but also don't lash out. Some may call it PA but I call it holding your ground and refusing to get personal. So its hard to see how you lack confidence.

Building confidence in my marriage and my role as a wife has come slowly but surely by weathering less than ideal situations beyond our control. 

JLD is Dug a good communicator while away? Does your connection remain strong?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

thefam said:


> @jld it really baffles me that you feel you lack confidence. I have watched you in some of the most brutal responses to your posts and even though I don't always agree with you I admire that you don't back down but also don't lash out. Some may call it PA but I call it holding your ground and refusing to get personal. So its hard to see how you lack confidence.


I think a lot of what is said to me here is defensiveness or projection. People are hurt and they want to hurt who or what they think is hurting them, not look at the message itself. And maybe some people are not capable of looking at things differently.

I have never really understood most of the criticism I have gotten on TAM. It is always surprising to hear some of the things said about me.

I do pay attention to what Dug tells me, though. He knows me through and through.

When I feel like what I say is true and can help people, I am okay to weather their storms. I do for them what Dug does for me. 

And some people come back and apologize later, and thank me. One man a year ago reached out to me after all the other TAM advice failed him. He said my approach was the only one he had not tried because it was foreign to everything he had been taught about relationships. But he said he was close to divorce and was desperate.

He and Dug and I talked. We gave him some basic guidelines to follow for approaching his wife.

He came back a few weeks later and said he could not believe how much better his marriage was. I have not seen him here since, so am guessing all is still going well.

That is the kind of experience that makes me feel it is worth continuing to try to help people here.



> Building confidence in my marriage and my role as a wife has come slowly but surely by weathering less than ideal situations beyond our control.
> 
> JLD is Dug a good communicator while away? Does your connection remain strong?


Our issue is that he gets lost in his own interests and takes me for granted. I feel expendable, though he swears I am not.


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## jdawg2015 (Feb 12, 2015)

My bad, for some reason I recalled you're wife messing around somehow.



TX-SC said:


> Neither my wife nor I ever had an affair.


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## TX-SC (Aug 25, 2015)

jdawg2015 said:


> My bad, for some reason I recalled you're wife messing around somehow.


Nope, not mine. I did have a fiancée cheat on me, but that was before I met my wife. Our marriage has been free of cheating.


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## RainbowBrite (Dec 30, 2015)

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## RainbowBrite (Dec 30, 2015)

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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

OliviaG said:


> His immediate reaction was that he didn't care, but I would not accept that - the baggage that I told him about was not insignificant and I knew that it would follow me around and try to suck the life out of me for many years to come. I also knew that he probably could not comprehend it. So I insisted that he really think about it and consider the implications.
> 
> He did, and we talked and he felt that it we could handle it together. It was a FOO issue and not a character issue of mine, but still, I don't know how he could be so sure of that. I wouldn't have taken the chance if I were him.
> 
> ...


Some of the things you post...eerily familiar and similar to my wife and I...


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## RainbowBrite (Dec 30, 2015)

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## RainbowBrite (Dec 30, 2015)

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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

OliviaG said:


> Does my role in the relationship echo your wife's or yours?


My wife's. Especially what you have eluded to in this thread...


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## RainbowBrite (Dec 30, 2015)

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## Eagle3 (Dec 4, 2013)

OliviaG said:


> His immediate reaction was that he didn't care, but I would not accept that - the baggage that I told him about was not insignificant and I knew that it would follow me around and try to suck the life out of me for many years to come. I also knew that he probably could not comprehend it. So I insisted that he really think about it and consider the implications.
> 
> He did, and we talked and he felt that we could handle it together. It was a FOO issue and not a character issue of mine, but still, I don't know how he could be so sure of that. I wouldn't have taken the chance if I were him.
> 
> ...


OliviaG, thank you for posting this. It was very very helpful to read. It hit home pretty hard but it was good to see from someone none the less.

I am glad that you are allowing yourself to accept his love for you and go forward in your marriage. I can tell you by not allowing yourself to do that with him can really cause problems down the road.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

sapientia said:


> I wonder how much of this is a lack of personal perspective when one marries. I'm curious how much experience you had with other partners before you married your exW.
> 
> In my own case, my ex of 20 years, we were pretty much each others first everything. We didn't know what we didn't know. Things actually started to go sideways once we started to build up our self-esteem through other experiences of our lives, and became increasingly dissatisfied with the gaping holes in our own relationship.
> 
> ...


I agree, especially the part about "A big part of what we call "self-esteem" issues has to do with that lack of a perspective". 
I can't speak for anyone else, but can speak from my own experiences. In the past I have "concluded" certain things. based on that conclusion I have been able to reconcile my experiences with reality. Every once in a while one of those "conclusions" is/was upset by something in reality and I am/was forced to rethink my previous "conclusion". Often times this period of introspection is/was accompanied by indecisiveness, which greatly affected my self esteem. I didn't feel competent to face the world, since I didn't have the answers to the problems I faced. If you ever get a chance to read the Six Pillars of Self Esteem by Nathaniel Branden, he discusses this very issue in great detail


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

OliviaG said:


> Interesting. I don't know much about your story Sam. I have no idea if her "skeletons" resemble mine or not. Even if they don't it sounds as though the way we dealt with them was similar.


Oh, they were some doozies...even by TAM standards


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

OliviaG said:


> I'm fairly certain that John does have bigger issues that most of us posting on TAM, issues that most can't even comprehend. And to complicate matters, he likely has to deal with them alone, with very little understanding from others, either IRL or here.
> 
> I don't envy him. I'm sure as he!! not going to judge him.


Yea, I was thinking of submitting a paper to the APA based on TAM suggestions when I first came to TAM 3 years ago... 

"Weight Loss and Clothing Improvement as possible treatment of Borderline Personality Disorder"

With maybe another paper to JCCP:

"Weight Loss and Clothing Improvement - effective responses to cultural impediments in cross-cultural marriages"...


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## brooklynAnn (Jun 29, 2015)

OliviaG said:


> We went several rounds over this and he became certain and unshakable: he loved me, he wanted to marry me. He was exactly the person I was looking for so I couldn't resist accepting his offer, although I always worried that he'd regret it some day.
> 
> He basically rescued me from a very bad situation, fully aware that there would be more skirmishes to fight in the future. I don't know why. I've never lost sight of the fact that he could have had a much easier life with someone else though. And the fear of him regretting marrying me has driven me to try to be the best possible wife to him that I could be.


I understand this so much. I think it takes someone with a sound grounded personality to be able to handle the baggages that their love ones comes with and be able to respond well. 

I can so relate to the feeling that his life would be so much easier if he had married someone else. I used to say this to my H all the time when we first got married and things came to light. I also, fought my being happy. I felt that I did not deserve his love or to be happy with him. The first two years it caused a lot of issues for us. I was waiting for him to leave or say he did not want me anymore. That he did not love me. I did not trust happiness or love and was always waiting for the axe to drop. It was how I was programmed as a young child. Happiness did not last and love came with anger and hurt.

But that man stood by me and proved me wrong. I always say he is the reason we are married for 25 years, May 22!


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## RainbowBrite (Dec 30, 2015)

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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

brooklynAnn said:


> But that man stood by me and proved me wrong. I always say he is the reason we are married for 25 years, May 22!


Happy belated anniversary!


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## brooklynAnn (Jun 29, 2015)

CharlieParker said:


> Happy belated anniversary!


Thank you. You gonna cook me something?>


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

john117 said:


> Yea, I was thinking of submitting a paper to the APA based on TAM suggestions when I first came to TAM 3 years ago...
> 
> "Weight Loss and Clothing Improvement as possible treatment of Borderline Personality Disorder"
> 
> ...


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## RainbowBrite (Dec 30, 2015)

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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

@Blonde did give you good insight, though, that you seemed to ignore, john . . .


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## RainbowBrite (Dec 30, 2015)

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## Luvher4life (Jan 15, 2016)

jld said:


> do you ever wonder why your spouse loves you as much as they do?


Sometimes, after all, I'm not the easiest person to love. I could be a much better person than I am, yet she still loves me as I am. I am always striving to be a better person for her. My wife is a wonderful woman who has her faults, but they don't make me love her any less. I'd like to think that's the way she feels about me, and that's what she shows.



jld said:


> You know your faults. You know your inadequacies. And the person you are with surely knows them, too, and then some!
> 
> Yet he or she just seems to love you no matter what. And you know you don't deserve it.
> 
> Has anyone made sense of this mystery?


I grew up in a broken home, and although I knew my parents loved me, they didn't really show it in the way of affection much. They didn't really say those key words. I think it's important that people actually hear those words at least occasionally, and know the feeling behind them is there.

At one time in my life, I had given up on the idea that anybody other than my kinfolk would truly love me. I fell in love with two women before I met my wife. I had deep affection for a few others, too. My love for them wasn't reciprocated, leaving me to feel like I wasn't worthy, and wondering if anybody would ever love me. I knew I had the capability to love somebody, but I wondered if anybody would ever fall in love with me. It was an empty and lonely feeling that I remember vividly. That's why, now that I've found my wife, I don't take it for granted that she loves me. I continue to grow as a man, making sure my feelings for her are shown. I strive to be the best man I can be for my wife. I fall short, in my own mind in many ways, but I am constantly trying to better myself for her.

God brought me my wife, and it is my duty to make sure I meet her needs, and with His help I will. I can't say I truly "deserve" her, but I can certainly say I am thankful for being blessed with her.


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## Eagle3 (Dec 4, 2013)

OliviaG said:


> Did you rescue your wife, Eagle3? And does she find it hard to accept love?
> 
> I am very fortunate in that as bad a situation as I came from, I also had a lot of support and involvement from outside the FOO. I grew up being thought of as "poor, unfortunate Olivia", but I was always well-loved and supported by many on the outside. I think that may be why I have never had trouble accepting love and have never felt unworthy of love. In some ways my childhood experience was very, very unlucky, but in others, very, very blessed.


Tough to say OliviaG. She might think I did but I could say the same for her but for different reasons. To make a very long story short she didn't have great past with guys, got pregnant as a teen and had a lot to deal with in that. I have raised her daughter as my own and done my best to make her feel loved and worthy. 

Problem is she had some difficulty accepting that and other fears personally that she did not clue me in. Things like not being worthy me being with her, us having our own kids, partly cause she was scared to be a mother again after being one so young mixed in with guilt me not having kid of my own. She was nervous about my past coming thru (mother abandoned me young age was in and out of foster care etc) and that if I did that she be left again. 

She just couldn't/cant accept that I was there for her and loved her thru all her faults or fears. A lof of stuff happened that I am leaving out but after awhile she couldn't keep it in and go on. So right now I am dealing with her in a place getting professional help and not knowing how this will all end up. 

So that is why I think to you guys getting this dealt with head on and early is really helpful and important. I would also say no matter what try to accept when your partner is telling and showing they are with you no matter what.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

OliviaG said:


> But you loved her and wanted her and knew you could overcome them together? And you have?


Loved her and wanted her? Yep.

Knew we could overcome the things? Honestly, I had no idea whether we could or not. Inside, I went way out on the highest limb of the tree to try, all the while making sure she felt as if we were solidly on the ground.

I knew things could go up in flames, and knew it could destroy her if I wasn't able to handle things, while reassuring her that I could. I was terrified and torn inside. I had to dig down inside myself, tap into my own self esteem, my own self awareness, my own self confidence, and in the end, put my trust in everything I thought I knew about myself...

And we've made it.


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## RainbowBrite (Dec 30, 2015)

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## RainbowBrite (Dec 30, 2015)

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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Luvher4life said:


> Sometimes, after all, I'm not the easiest person to love. I could be a much better person than I am, yet she still loves me as I am. I am always striving to be a better person for her. My wife is a wonderful woman who has her faults, but they don't make me love her any less. I'd like to think that's the way she feels about me, and that's what she shows.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Beautiful post, Luv.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

OliviaG said:


> Hmm...you're making me wonder how much of the confidence my husband has always projected is real and how much of a personal struggle with my situation he's dealt with unbeknownst to me.
> 
> I'm sure I'll never know; he'd never, ever tell me.


Why would he not tell you?


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

john117 said:


> Three years ago TAM volume was easily 2x to 3x what it is today, and the heavy duty zombie marriages were far more common. A few got resolved, most didn't, and it was all generally blamed on the unfortunate non zombie spouses.


It is your presumption that when the rest of us mention skeletons, we are only talking about under-cooked waffles, and cannot possibly comprehend the depth of what you are suffering that I find off-putting. And incorrect.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

OliviaG said:


> Hmm...you're making me wonder how much of the confidence my husband has always projected is real and how much of a personal struggle with my situation he's dealt with unbeknownst to me.
> 
> *I'm sure I'll never know; he'd never, ever tell me*.


Same here...she'll never know.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

samyeagar said:


> Loved her and wanted her? Yep.
> 
> Knew we could overcome the things? Honestly, I had no idea whether we could or not. Inside, *I went way out on the highest limb of the tree to try, all the while making sure she felt as if we were solidly on the ground.
> *
> ...


My story as well.

It might seem like I'm a great person for "saving" someone but, really, I'm just fulfilling my own needs. Pretty much what make me happy is doing exactly this.

The big trick is finding someone who *wants* to be saved, who *can be* saved and who *appreciates* being saved.

Not easily found! It took a few tries.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

OliviaG said:


> Hmm...you're making me wonder how much of the confidence my husband has always projected is real and how much of a personal struggle with my situation he's dealt with unbeknownst to me.
> 
> I'm sure I'll never know; he'd never, ever tell me.


That is kind of sad. Don't you think you would respect him all that much more if you knew it didn't come easy or natural, yet he still managed to do it and do it well?

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## RainbowBrite (Dec 30, 2015)

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## RainbowBrite (Dec 30, 2015)

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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

jld said:


> do you ever wonder why your spouse loves you as much as they do?
> 
> You know your faults. You know your inadequacies. And the person you are with surely knows them, too, and then some!
> 
> ...


Honestly I have never really wondered or worried about. We all have faults and imperfections, and in my view the faults/imperfections my W and I have compliment each other well (these faults/imperfections also help define who we are). After all, if my W had a fault/imperfection that I couldn't handle, we wouldn't have gotten married in the first place.

Interestingly enough, I know my wife has questioned this on numerous occasions (i.e. whether she deserves my love, etc...). A part of this is our personalities. I am a very upbeat/positive person so it has not been an issue/concern of mine whereas my wife has more insecurities/self doubt, so for her at times those insecurities take over. If you asked my W this very question I guarantee you would get a completely different response than me


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## RainbowBrite (Dec 30, 2015)

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## brooklynAnn (Jun 29, 2015)

EllisRedding said:


> Honestly I have never really wondered or worried about. We all have faults and imperfections, and in my view the faults/imperfections my W and I have compliment each other well (these faults/imperfections also help define who we are). After all, if my W had a fault/imperfection that I couldn't handle, we wouldn't have gotten married in the first place.
> 
> Interestingly enough, I know my wife has questioned this on numerous occasions (i.e. whether she deserves my love, etc...). A part of this is our personalities. I am a very upbeat/positive person so it has not been an issue/concern of mine whereas my wife has more insecurities/self doubt, so for her at times those insecurities take over. If you asked my W this very question I guarantee you would get a completely different response than me


She would give a different answer because she sees you as only she does. Her views of herself is different from what you see in her. Which is kinda normal, I would think.

My H thinks I am the strong one. Because I survived my younger days and I am ok. But I don't think he really gets how messed up I was when we met. He sees me fighting to protect him and our kids as being strong. I see me holding on to what makes me happy and fulfilled. 

Different points of view from where we each stand.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

jld said:


> @Blonde did give you good insight, though, that you seemed to ignore, john . . .


Insight is useful, yet ineffective vs spectrum B disorders. Ultimately one needs to walk away, which is what the answer was for her and in 12 months, for me.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

always_alone said:


> It is your presumption that when the rest of us mention skeletons, we are only talking about under-cooked waffles, and cannot possibly comprehend the depth of what you are suffering that I find off-putting. And incorrect.


Not ALL...


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

john117 said:


> Insight is useful, yet ineffective vs spectrum B disorders. Ultimately one needs to walk away, which is what the answer was for her and in 12 months, for me.


Check your own pride in this, john. Blonde offered you excellent insight, as I recall.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

OliviaG said:


> Why won't you tell her Sam?


Won't serve any constructive purpose. I know she has insecurities about these things, even now. I also know her well enough to know that rather than feel closer to me, or more comfortable and secure in the relationship, she would likely feel guilty for causing me to have to deal with these things in the first place, feel like a burden. She wouldn't lose any respect or attraction towards me, but I think her own feelings of inadequacy would cause her to pull away.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

samyeagar said:


> Won't serve any constructive purpose. I know she has insecurities about these things, even now. I also know her well enough to know that rather than feel closer to me, or more comfortable and secure in the relationship, she would likely feel guilty for causing me to have to deal with these things in the first place, feel like a burden. She wouldn't lose any respect or attraction towards me, but I think her own feelings of inadequacy would cause her to pull away.


Wouldn't it be an opportunity for her to work through them?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

jld said:


> Check your own pride in this, john. Blonde offered you excellent insight, as I recall.


I got the insight. And appreciated it. Ultimately, like her case, things did not work out. Like in my case. 

Pride won't do diddly against a raging BPD, incidentally. I wish it did.


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## RainbowBrite (Dec 30, 2015)

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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

OliviaG said:


> Thanks for answering; that would have been my guess, and it's also why I think my husband wouldn't tell me if he'd felt the way you described feeling.
> 
> Personally, I think it's wise to use the "what purpose will it serve?" litmus test wrt what to reveal and what to keep to oneself. It's something not practiced in my FOO that I've learned from my husband (*you aren't him, are you?!*...)


There have been enough differences in things you have relayed that I can say you aren't my wife, and I'm not your husband, but damn...it's eerie, and I have had to reread things you have said about you and your husband to look for the details to make sure we aren't.

Side question...what is FOO?


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## RainbowBrite (Dec 30, 2015)

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## brooklynAnn (Jun 29, 2015)

jld said:


> Wouldn't it be an opportunity for her to work through them?


Just a question for all on this thread....

Do we really need to work thru all of our issues? Can we as individuals be allowed to hide our insecurities and fears, if we don't allow it to disrupt our lives? Is knowing we have them and just letting it be, good enough?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

brooklynAnn said:


> Just a question for all on this thread....
> 
> Do we really need to work thru all of our issues? Can we as individuals be allowed to hide our insecurities and fears, if we don't allow it to disrupt our lives? Is knowing we have them and just letting it be, good enough?


No.


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## RainbowBrite (Dec 30, 2015)

Deleted


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I think the risk is that those issues will eventually surface, and very possibly in unhealthy ways. 

"What we do not talk out, we act out."


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## Eagle3 (Dec 4, 2013)

brooklynAnn said:


> Just a question for all on this thread....
> 
> Do we really need to work thru all of our issues? Can we as individuals be allowed to hide our insecurities and fears, *if we don't allow it to disrupt our lives?* Is knowing we have them and just letting it be, good enough?


I agree with you but it can lead to disruptive outcomes if festered incorrectly. I have read many of your posts on TAM and you seem like a strong and well aware woman so for you I think this applies. But for someone like my wife that showed that on the outside and didn't let me in on inside 100% it exploded to something awful. 

So I think in some cases what you say is very valid but in others it might not work.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Eagle3 said:


> I agree with you but it can lead to disruptive outcomes if festered incorrectly. I have read many of your posts on TAM and you seem like a strong and well aware woman so for you I think this applies. But for someone like my wife that showed that on the outside and didn't let me in on inside 100% it exploded to something awful.
> 
> So I think in some cases what you say is very valid but in others it might not work.


Diplomatic answer, Eagle.


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## brooklynAnn (Jun 29, 2015)

I agree with all of you. I try to keep a handle on things. But sometimes, like OliveG said, dwelling on it too much can do some harm. 

I mean if you are working on it constructively with a therapist and exploring all the different facets of your "issues" than, to me that is good. But to rehash and make it my anthem becomes old after a while. 

I don't think he would want to know all the nitty gritty details. I have told him certain things in details but certain things I have glossed over. I think it will cause him pain if he knew. And it will just bring up all those old pain in me again. ( Being on TAM thens to do that to me. That is why I try to stay away from these kinds of discussions)

I know I am protecting me. Sometimes, I think that is what is important. Our mind protect us and shield away from the things that would hurt. 

I know he would be understanding and love me still. He would not be anger but would be sad for me. Why bring that into our lives?


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

I advocate REASONABLE work on issues. Like with anything, there is risk to swing too far in one direction creating an imbalance.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I just could not live that way. I just do not feel right being anything but transparent with my husband. He said once that it makes living with me easy.


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## Eagle3 (Dec 4, 2013)

brooklynAnn, you know your husband best but if you feel that he would be accepting or ok in hearing all you had to say I would tell him. It sounds like he is a good guy so I bet he would want that but you have to be sure that is ok.

If people were to read what happened with what my wife kept and was battling it might seem she did awful things and such. But for me what bothers me more is not what she did or thought, it was not including me in so we could work on it. That is what stings more. 

But I am probably giving an apples and oranges example. That is probably not helpful to some of you. I am sure brooklynAnn what you are glossing over is not as major as what I learned was glossed over. But in the same aspect, if you think your husband would be ok than really consider talking to him about it.


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## RainbowBrite (Dec 30, 2015)

Deleted


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

OliviaG said:


> I'm not aware of your past jld, but just speculating that you may have not gone through a particularly traumatizing past? The kind of past where bad stuff happens more or less indefinitely and there is no one on earth that has the power to stop it and you just have to wait to grow up and get away from it?
> 
> People can handle things like that differently, probably depending on significant differences in the details of the trauma experienced and/or the personalities involved. Some are decimated, some become stronger for having survived it.
> 
> I was a survivor, and reliving it, although a favourite pastime of some of my relatives who did not survive it so well and dwell on it throughout their lives, I can't stand re-living it and re-hashing it. There was no solution; I can accept that. I don't see any benefit in trying to understand how it affected me since I function very well. If I didn't function well though, I'd seek help.


I think it is in great measure because of both acute and chronic difficulties in my past that I am adamant about transparency, Olivia. I do not think there is real healing without it.

I would agree that personalities are also a factor.


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## brooklynAnn (Jun 29, 2015)

jld said:


> I just could not live that way. I just do not feel right being anything but transparent with my husband. He said once that it makes living with me easy.


I understand what you are saying and where you are coming from. I am an open book to him in very thing in our lives. But I feel that is my past and my mode to protect myself from those memories. I feel that if I give him the details, it would not do any good nor would it enhance our lives. Just let them rest. 

I do make his life easy. He has never had to doubt my love or affection for him. I am absolutely faithful to my marriage and my devotion to him. He is my everything. He knows he can count on me for everything. I am his rock as he is mines. 

This is just my way of coping. Will it be this way forever? Maybe not. We are still growing and changing as a couple. Maybe, when that person dies and my H can't kill him anymore, I will let the door open wide. Who knows.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

john117 said:


> Insight is useful, yet ineffective vs spectrum B disorders. Ultimately one needs to walk away, which is what the answer was for her and in 12 months, for me.


One does what one has to do for self-preservation, no doubt.

But there are many means and methods that most certainly impact the outcome.

A friend of mine has bipolar disorder, and her husband left her because of it. No one wonders why. But they find the way he did it pretty despicable.

For a decision analysis person, your thinking strikes me as awfully black and white.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

jld said:


> I think the risk is that those issues will eventually surface, and very possibly in unhealthy ways.
> 
> "What we do not talk out, we act out."


Indeed, this is so true. Old pain has a way of resurfacing and causing new problems. And the older the pain, sometimes the harder it can be to see the connections between it and the unhealthy reactions to triggers -- or even to identify those triggers.

That said, I agree with @brooklynAnn that wallowing is not helpful at all. And some of the things that no doubt would "fix" me? Well, dammit, I don't want them fixed!


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

brooklynAnn said:


> I understand what you are saying and where you are coming from. I am an open book to him in very thing in our lives. But I feel that is my past and my mode to protect myself from those memories. *I feel that if I give him the details, it would not do any good nor would it enhance our lives. Just let them rest. *
> 
> I do make his life easy. He has never had to doubt my love or affection for him. I am absolutely faithful to my marriage and my devotion to him. He is my everything. He knows he can count on me for everything. I am his rock as he is mines.
> 
> This is just my way of coping. Will it be this way forever? Maybe not. We are still growing and changing as a couple. Maybe, when that person dies and my H can't kill him anymore, I will let the door open wide. Who knows.


With my wife, I have no doubt that she would have preferred this way, as would I. She had largely come to an acceptance of things in her past, but there were certain circumstances we found ourselves in that essentially left her no choice but to go into some things with me.


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## brooklynAnn (Jun 29, 2015)

Eagle3 said:


> brooklynAnn, you know your husband best but if you feel that he would be accepting or ok in hearing all you had to say I would tell him. It sounds like he is a good guy so I bet he would want that but you have to be sure that is ok.
> 
> If people were to read what happened with what my wife kept and was battling it might seem she did awful things and such. But for me what bothers me more is not what she did or thought, it was not including me in so we could work on it. That is what stings more.
> 
> But I am probably giving an apples and oranges example. That is probably not helpful to some of you. I am sure brooklynAnn what you are glossing over is not as major as what I learned was glossed over. But in the same aspect, if you think your husband would be ok than really consider talking to him about it.


You know these pass few months, I have learned so much being on TAM. Being here on TAM has opened so many wounds that i thought I had put to rest. My horrible childhood and my sexual abuse, yes I am admitting to it. Sometimes, it has left me bare and bleeding. About 2 months ago a post left me so opened, I told my H about it and he said don't come here anymore. He hates to see me in pain and I hate to think I have cause him pain. So, he knows there is more, any person would know there is more. I think he is giving me a way to deal with it on my own terms. Allowing me the peace to live with it on my own terms. 

I have had years of help when I was younger and I am always watching and checking my emotions and actions. So, I always have a check and balance appoarch of dealing. 
@Eagle3, so sorry things did not go well for your wife. I hope you guys have a new understanding of each other and you are at a good place now.


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## RainbowBrite (Dec 30, 2015)

Deleted


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

OliviaG said:


> I'm curious as to how John should proceed, in your opinion, that would be looked upon favourably by yourself and those of your friends who are doing the judging you described, above?


There was a good thread a year ago that @Blonde was on. She was very direct with him. I hope she will weigh in later.


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## Eagle3 (Dec 4, 2013)

brooklynAnn said:


> You know these pass few months, I have learned so much being on TAM. Being here on TAM has opened so many wounds that i thought I had put to rest. My horrible childhood and my sexual abuse, yes I am admitting to it. Sometimes, it has left me bare and bleeding. About 2 months ago a post left me so opened, I told my H about it and he said don't come here anymore. He hates to see me in pain and I hate to think I have cause him pain. So, he knows there is more, any person would know there is more. I think he is giving me a way to deal with it on my own terms. Allowing me the peace to live with it on my own terms.
> 
> I have had years of help when I was younger and I am always watching and checking my emotions and actions. So, I always have a check and balance appoarch of dealing.
> 
> @Eagle3, so sorry things did not go well for your wife. I hope you guys have a new understanding of each other and you are at a good place now.


I am sorry that you have a bad past to deal with. I am glad to see you have a good husband and you have support and not dealing with this alone. 

Thank you for your well wishes. I hope so too. Our journey thru all this is really just starting. Right now she is getting help and proper therapy in the place she is now. I am doing my best to give support and care as much as I can. When she finally is able to come home will be the true test.


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## brooklynAnn (Jun 29, 2015)

Eagle3 said:


> I am sorry that you have a bad past to deal with. I am glad to see you have a good husband and you have support and not dealing with this alone.
> 
> Thank you for your well wishes. I hope so too. Our journey thru all this is really just starting. Right now she is getting help and proper therapy in the place she is now. I am doing my best to give support and care as much as I can. When she finally is able to come home will be the true test.


Keep the faith and take care of yourself. Will keep you in my prayers.

Have a great evening guys. It's always so insightful to chat with you all. Learning more about myself and everyone of you each day. God bless.

I am off to feed my 19 years old baby girl. She has regressed to being a 2 years old since coming home from school. It's mum this and mum that. :crying:


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## LadybugMomma (Apr 28, 2016)

I've wondered this at times. Being the second marriage for us both and both of us having pretty crappy first marriages, together we see where we previously went wrong/were done wrong. Having the knowledge ,our love for each other is undeniable. This doesn't mean that we don't butt heads from time ti time and disagree with each other, but the bottom line is that if we have that strong love, we will work it out. 

I was so used to living a life as room mates rather than husband/wife, that I figured that's the way life is. I'm sure too that it has a lot to do with me being in that relation from the time I was 15 til 40. What the heck did I know? 

So, when I met my current H it took SO much effort on my part to accept him for the amazing man he is! I, at times, pushed him away because while it felt so good to be treated so incredibly, it also felt so foreign but he kept trudging forward, never giving up on me.

I didn't feel I deserved that type of love. I never experienced anything like this. And I was sure that as soon as I accepted him, that he would turn into the jerk I was used to. 

Finally, I slowly let H break down my walls down. I never regret it and often wish I hadn't been such a hard ass in the beginning. 

Like another poster said, I spilled my skeletons from the very beginning. I voiced what I wanted and needed in my life etc...laid it all on the table. Thinking about it now, most men would likely have thought this woman is crazy and hit the ground running....fast! 

I still let my thoughts drift and wonder why he loves me so much (Heaven knows I'm difficult at times) and what I did to deserve such a great man. But rather than wasting my thoughts on that non-sense, I then think about how lucky I am to have a man who is fully, wholeheartedly, into me.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

always_alone said:


> One does what one has to do for self-preservation, no doubt.
> 
> But there are many means and methods that most certainly impact the outcome.
> 
> ...


Because you have arrived to him at late stages in the state of his marriage. He's done all the advice for years prior to now and is past final decision mode and is in present exit mode.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

OliviaG said:


> I'm curious as to how John should proceed, in your opinion, that would be looked upon favourably by yourself and thse of your friends who are doing the judging you described, above?


Huh? This isn't about me or what I find favourable. It's about how you treat people, with or without mental illness.

My friend has a mental illness and admittedly she is very difficult to be around. No one judges her h for leaving her. But when he did, he treated her horribly, demolished her emotionally, devoted his time to making sure she could never see her kid (she was always awesome to the kid), tried to get her incarcerated, bad-mouthed her to all their friends, even on social media. You name it. He was angry and lashed out, and made everything worse, including her symptoms.

I don't know john's story as well, but from what he has said here on TAM, he has engaged in many behaviours that could have no other consequences than to belittle his wife and worsen her attitude, symptoms, and treatment of him. 

And, IMHO, he also could just leave her already, instead of insisting that she be around to pay for ther daughter's remaining (post-graduate) education. At this point, he is basically using her for her cash flow, and yet it's all still about how hard done by he is. Well, she has a tough row to hoe as well. Again, IMHO.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

jld said:


> Hey, thanks, aa. I think it is low self esteem, as Sam said. And I do think Dug takes me for granted, which does not help.
> 
> Gosh, it is painful to write that.


He takes you for granted because he is an emotional dufus. And yes, you can quote me on that!

Of course you are not expendable:. You have made it possible for him to realize his dreams and goals, have devoted yourself to your children, and raising them as he thought best, have uprooted yourself to attend to his needs and whims. *AND* he perceives you as easy to live with. 

He is lucky to have you!

But he gets all wrapped up in his own little world, and fails to see anything outside of it. You are so much a part of his life, he forgets to see you as a person in your own right.

Please, go give him a kick in the a$$, and tell him it's from me. (If he has a problem with that, tell him he can find me here.)


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

jld said:


> I think a lot of what is said to me here is defensiveness or projection. People are hurt and they want to hurt who or what they think is hurting them, not look at the message itself. And maybe some people are not capable of looking at things differently.
> 
> I have never really understood most of the criticism I have gotten on TAM. It is always surprising to hear some of the things said about me.
> 
> ...


I told Mr H from day one that I am an attention seeker (in the nicest possible way) ignore me or take me for granted at your own peril. I will give everything I have to give but one of my biggest needs is to feel important.

We went through a stage where he was thinking about and stressing about work while we were spending time together. Yes he has a stressful job, yes he works very hard but no way was I going to be put on the back burner and ignored due to his mind being elsewhere.

Being taken for granted just doesn't work for me.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

brooklynAnn said:


> She would give a different answer because she sees you as only she does. Her views of herself is different from what you see in her. Which is kinda normal, I would think.


She would give a different answer moreso b/c of her personality/insecurities. She questions herself a lot now as a SAHM, parent, etc.... She is an awesome wife and mom, doesn't give herself the credit she deserves. Part of this mentality though does come from her parents who can be downers as well (although I haven't seen it in my W, depression does run in her family as well). I think this is part of what she leans on me for since I always try to find the positive in any negative, and rather look forward instead of dwelling on the past. Plus, maybe I am just all kinds of awesomeness :grin2:

Just read one of your latest post about your past @brooklynAnn , real sorry you had to deal with all that growing up.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

always_alone said:


> For a decision analysis person, your thinking strikes me as awfully black and white.


It's supposed to be awfully black and white.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

OliviaG said:


> I'm curious as to how John should proceed, in your opinion, that would be looked upon favourably by yourself and those of your friends who are doing the judging you described, above?


T - 12 months and counting. It's an awfully black and white choice to be honest. 

The three choices I've given are simple. Amicable settlement and divorce, fight to the last piece of silverware and divorce, or heavy duty MC and IC.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

john117 said:


> It's supposed to be awfully black and white.


That's unfortunate, because there are all sorts of tones and half-tones you are missing out on. The world is actually techincolour.


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## RainbowBrite (Dec 30, 2015)

Deleted


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

OliviaG said:


> Yes, I've wondered and I've marvelled about his capacity to love me no matter what. I don't know how I got so lucky as to be loved by him, a man who knows what's really important in life and won't be distracted from it, a man who knows how to truly love.
> 
> Recently, in a fit of anger and frustration I said some things that really hurt him. It was so bad that I felt physically ill for a couple of days and wondered if I'd made it impossible for him to love me. I half expected him not to come home one night when he was later than usual - that's how bad it was. But he forgave me and quickly. And the next thing I knew, *he* was reassuring *me* that he was glad I'd said those things because they were truthful even though they hurt him, and now he understood me better. That's love. And I don't deserve it.


Some similarities here Olivia...

I have hurt my dear husband far more over the years than he has ever hurt me...not big things.. very little really.. with words.. being too blunt.. oblivious to it's impact...Yet, no matter what.. the man is amazing, he seems to KNOW it's out of frustration, loving me back in spite of it all, through it all. 

I've often thought...when my life is over.. if there was 1 thing I was certain of -to put on my tombstone... it would be that I was deeply loved by a da** good man.. (leaving out the swear word of course).... 

Many may not believe this, due to the nature of my posts, some see me as a Tinkerbell, or Pollyanna, been called both here.... But I can be a real "Doom & Gloomer" - there is a pessimist that lurks within ....continuous Cheery Optimists can get on my nerves even...I want to give them a dose of Reality or something.. but even so...because of his presence in my life.. there is just so much to be thankful for ... I do relish in what I have been blessed with in this life. 

But still.. I believe I bring a lot to our relationship....even if I'm not a career woman.. I feel I deserve to be loved /cherished.... I suppose I have self esteem enough to believe this.. I am a "giving" Romantic at my core ....

Would it be weird to say.. likely through his eyes / his care.. I have learned to love myself more so, to be easier on myself ....When I've doubted myself... HE SAW the best in me.. Because of him.. I want to give back... I want to share my life.. 

One moment that will forever live in my memory is...Yrs ago now.. We had a stupid fight.. caused by me of course...I was sitting on the bed.. being contentious.. telling him what I'd change about him... (not very nice of me.. my mouth is too big & too honest at times! )... though I'm courteous.. If I can dish it out.... I can take it too.... .. so I told him... it's HIS turn now.. he could lay it on me.... so I ask , if he could wave that wand... what he'd change about me.. I'm listening.. 

He looks at me...pauses.... and says "nothing. ..I wouldn't change anything about you -because then it wouldn't be YOU"...comes out of his mouth.. and I just Lost it.. started bawling and fell into his arms.. 

It was one of those Unconditional moments.. he's given me many over the years...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Do you prefer honest feedback or Hallmark card moments???

"Yea, I would like to see you change X to Y, because Z. That would be you, even better".


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

john117 said:


> Do you prefer honest feedback or Hallmark card moments???
> 
> *"Yea, I would like to see you change X to Y, because Z. That would be you, even better".*


Yeah that's what I wanted.. I mean my list on what I would change about him was awfully small.. 2 areas I spoke of...which he's heard before ... he's still awfully easy to live with.. obviously.. 

I've asked such questions in the past.. I think it's good to do that.. here is 2 he has given me.. that yes.. he would change.. He's told me I drive too fast & I'm going to kill myself.. and he's going to be pi$$ed off - so he'd change that.. and I can be too mean to the kids sometimes.. especially our 4th son.. we seem to rub each other the wrong way.. I could be NICER.... So yeah.. we all could do better in some areas.. for some reason.. that night.. he just didn't go there...

But NO...You'd have to know me JOHN... screw Hallmark cards.. No I like things to be REAL.. if I even suspect someone is pandering to me, to save face... I will badger them to get the truth out (If I am close to them that is).. I will outright tell them they are BSing me....

I'm not hard to talk to in real life, one doesn't have to walk on egg shells or worry they will offend me.. I want the raw truth...only in that can we better our relationship.. My husband is not as mouthy as me.. he's more laid back..he's easier to please also.. but he's never been one to lie.. if I ask a direct question.. he'll tell me the truth.. he may avoid trying to be harsh..which is surely a good thing.. but I can trust he's not just sucking up.. feeding me Hallmark moments.


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## RainbowBrite (Dec 30, 2015)

Deleted


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

OliviaG said:


> I feel I deserve unconditional love too, in fact I can't tolerate anything less, would prefer to be alone if I can't have it.* I wonder if because of our rocky starts in life you and I both have a diminished capacity to deal with anything less than true love and devotion from our mates? Like maybe we need more security in that area than the average woman would? I hadn't really thought of it that way until I read what you just wrote about being loved/cherished. *


 Now this is an interesting question here... and there could be some truth to it...I don't remember if we shared with each other some of our earlier experiences with family, etc.. I've plastered some of mine all over this forum.. though my 1st 9 yrs were good...then it took a downward turn...I wanted out of that house.. I felt alone, not wanted, couldn't wait to grow up & get out, find the love of my life.. I was a more serious teen due to not having that security, that soft place to fall.. I dreamed of my own family someday.. 

A while back, @jld suggested I get this book...  The Good Marriage: How and Why Love Lasts ... so I bought it.. skimmed through it.. it spoke & explained 5 different types of Marriages...

*1*. Romantic Marriage

*2*. Rescue Marriage

*3.* Companionate Marriage

*4*. Traditional Marriage

*5*. Renegotiating Marriage...

When I read the chapter on "*the Romantic Marriage*".. it was like ...WOW.. that is so US...but also what I learned in that chapter was how many in these type marriages speak of a "hole" in their childhoods.. a severe loss... it spoke of one woman who never had a Mother, she was deprived of maternal affection & love, how her mother didn't touch her.. in my life.. my mother loved me.. but she left me.. she had a nervous breakdown & ran off with an alcoholic.. she was my best friend before that.. my world so to speak, and that was ripped from me.. 

I will copy a few parts from that particular chapter...



> All Courtship begins with a fantasy - a fervent desire, bordering on delusion, that another person can step in & magically undo all of life's hurts and disappointments . The new loved one will adore you forever, protect you, drive away wicked people, make you feel whole, valued, beautiful, worthy, and honorable - forever...
> 
> then a few more paragraphs & it says this...
> 
> ...


When I read all of that.. I can relate to feeling LIKE THIS...(I was an only child too).... I enjoyed watching shows like the Waltons , Little House on the Prairie .... loved that Larger family stability ...








or listening to my Beloved Grandmother next door speak of her Courtship with my Grandfather...they had a very loving marriage... these things surely influenced me and gave me hope for my own future. 

Loved your post Olivia.. I need to go to bed - gotta get up in a few!...but I want to come back to this !


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

john117 said:


> Our own skeletons - not our partner's - help us become stronger.
> .


Of course, John.

But when we falter, as in sickness, waywardness, blindness...we do the "Lean on Thee" dance with our partner.

And yes, we hope Theirs is up to the task, not broken too. Not hollow boned and "light" as in the Avian Species. Bird bones suitable for flight...not heavy lifting or weight bearing.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

We do, but we can't tell how heavy or strong anyone's skeleton is by looking... often including our own.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Holland said:


> I told Mr H from day one that I am an attention seeker (in the nicest possible way) ignore me or take me for granted at your own peril. I will give everything I have to give but one of my biggest needs is to feel important.
> 
> We went through a stage where he was thinking about and stressing about work while we were spending time together. Yes he has a stressful job, yes he works very hard but no way was I going to be put on the back burner and ignored due to his mind being elsewhere.
> 
> Being taken for granted just doesn't work for me.


Ditto
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

thefam said:


> @jld it really baffles me that you feel you lack confidence. I have watched you in some of the most brutal responses to your posts and even though I don't always agree with you I admire that you don't back down but also don't lash out. Some may call it PA but I call it holding your ground and refusing to get personal. So its hard to see how you lack confidence.


 I feel the same way.. she's been very BOLD here with her difference of opinion sometimes against 95% of those on a thread.. yet she stands her ground !!

Who does this -if they don't have confidence ?? Some may feel that can be arrogance too.. but it's not..I just know her...she has a need to express when she FEELS something.. it's admirable really....even if we may not always agree with Jld..


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I feel the same way.. she's been very BOLD here with her difference of opinion sometimes against 95% of those on a thread.. yet she stands her ground !!
> 
> Who does this -if they don't have confidence ?? Some may feel that can be arrogance too.. but it's not..I just know her...she has a need to express when she FEELS something.. it's admirable really....even if we may not always agree with Jld..


Hey, that is very kind, SA. Thank you.  You know me IRL, and that surely makes a world of difference. 

You are right that I just have to stand up and say what I feel is right, especially when I see a lack of honesty or someone being unfairly treated by a group. I think it would be wrong not to. At the very least it gives people a different perspective to consider. At best it curtails the bullying and self-righteousness of the crowd, and brings about humility and empathy.

If we do not say what we really think, are we really helping people very much? And how do we ourselves grow without transparency?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

jld said:


> Hey, that is very kind, SA. Thank you.  You know me IRL, and that surely makes a world of difference.
> 
> You are right that I just have to stand up and say what I feel is right, especially when I see a lack of honesty or someone being unfairly treated by a group. I think it would be wrong not to. At the very least it gives people a different perspective to consider. At best it curtails the bullying and self-righteousness of the crowd, and brings about humility and empathy.
> 
> *If we do not say what we really think, are we really helping people very much? And how do we ourselves grow without transparency?*


 Reminds me of this scripture in Proverbs....








.. 

There is thread here started by a wife about her husband -he's so used to saying what others WANT TO HEAR (fear of conflict)..."white lies" constantly so he won't offend/ upset anyone, or he just wants to look GOOD...

.. I'm shaking my head thinking.. "OMG how can she STAND this.. I could not live with that!!....you wouldn't be about to trust anything that comes out of his mouth.. how could anything be taken to heart.. build upon it, uproot a real issue to resolving ... then she admits She does it too! 

Honesty can be tough sometimes, no doubt, most especially if our heart has strayed & we don't want to make amends with another...sometimes it makes US LOOK BAD too... it reveals our flaws, weaknesses.. it is very vulnerable - it opens us up to being attacked.....but yet...doing the right thing is important, sometimes we feel driven to speak up if something is burning in us (to say "Hey wait a minute there -not so fast -have you considered this?"....our *Intentions* should matter....most especially with those we love... 

On forums.. our intentions may not be so clear.. we can easily be misread.. sometimes we might have to check our own intentions!

It's the truth that grounds us, and ultimately unites us...







and sometimes it's a







...and that's Ok too! I appreciate knowing where someone REALLY stands.


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## just got it 55 (Mar 2, 2013)

MrsAldi said:


> Yes, it's called unconditional love.
> My marriage has this.
> We both love each other unconditionally.
> We know that we can not find any better than each other.
> ...


I know my wife could easily find a better man.

That's why in the last few years of our 38 year marriage I have worked hard to be worthy of her love every day

I own the worlds record in fault possession.

She however will never feel free from my love

55


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I would LOVE to see my wife try to find a better man. 

My sole fault - I didn't walk out ten years ago.


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