# Case study in why being conflict avoidant/doormat "for the children" is a bad idea.



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

I see a number of posts where people choose to be completely conflict avoidant and not stand up to their spouse and allow spouse to be completely domineering if not actually abusive and yet they do nothing because they believe it best not to show any kind of disagreement or conflict in front of the children. 

The following is a post from a man reflecting back on about 50 years of kowtowing to his wife and never standing up for himself or standing up to her. He thought it would be best to not show any kind of disagreement to the children and here is where he is today with the children -

-_I have not yet mentioned my children who are married but dont live near me. When they were growing up, I gave in to her all the time, everything about them. I thought it would be better for them, for us not to argue about them. In other words she chose their names, which schools they went to etc. They were used to hearing her ranting against me, all the time, and I let them take her side which they did. She still controls them and their spouses who are all scared of her. I dont mix into how they bring up their children but my wife cant stop. In a way I am a bit estranged from them, and they dont confide in me. So not only dont I have a wife I also dont really have my own children. -_

He thought he was doing the right thing by capitulating and tolerating her behavior in not standing up for himself and not tempting her wrath. 

But what likely ended up happening is instead of them benefiting from his lack of assertion in the form of conflict avoidance, is instead they grew up thinking he was just plain uninvolved and disinterested in their lives. They had no confidence in his ability or even his desire to parent. 

And if she was outright abusive which he tends to subtly imply in his posts, they may harbor an actual resentment and bitterness towards him not standing up for and protecting them. It is not at all uncommon for abused children to grow up with more anger and resentment towards the parent that stood by and did nothing, than for the parent that did the actual abusing. 

When people tolerate and accept abuse, bad behavior, mistreatment and their own misery "for the children", this can be the ultimate result. Instead of being honored and appreciated and thanked for their 'sacrifice' which many people seem to think will be the return - what actually ends up happening is a lack of confidence in their parenting ability, questioning their involvement or parental investment in their lives, or sometimes outright resentment and lack of respect for not taking a stand and not taking action. 

Whether is an abusive spouse, an adulterous spouse or a spouse that just simply does not love, respect or want to be with you but wants to keep you around as a Spouse Appliance to service or support them, this is why it is a bad idea to martyr yourself on the altar of "for the children."


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

It just annoys the hell out of me with today's world politically correct words, such as conflict avoidance, rather than saying it like it is: coward (s) instead.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Rob_1 said:


> It just annoys the hell out of me with today's world politically correct words, such as conflict avoidance, rather than saying it like it is: coward (s) instead.


cowardice is definately a part of it. 

But we are also in a world where men are being told that they don't know anything and that the woman is always right in family/children/relationship matters and that it is their duty to suppress their needs and values and do what the woman says. 

But it's not just a man's issue. Women do it too. Lots of mothers have stood by while their husbands and boyfriends and baby-daddies have abused and molested their children. There for awhile, they were starting to go to prison along with the offenders which I think is a good thing. We'll see if that trend continues. 

But anyway getting back to terminology and political correctness. While I agree cowardice is a component, I do believe there are times there is a distinction between cowardice and conflict avoidant. Some people are making a conscious choice to capitulate and kowtow rather than asserting their opinions because they do think it is bad and wrong to show conflict or disagreement etc. 

I get not throwing pots and pans and name calling and outright abuse infront of the children. But kids do need to see that people have differing thoughts and opinions and that there is always more than one way to skin a cat. Conflict resolution is one of the most critical and valuable skills that a person can learn and both men and women that make the choice to never show disagreement or conflict to their kids are doing a huge disservice not only to themselves by making themselves look weak and cowardly, but also a disservice to the children as well in not seeing people stand up for themselves and not seeing people stand up to bullies.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

I spent years wishing my conflict avoidant father would divorce my overbearing mother. It made me understand exactly what I DIDNT want to be


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

Mr.Married said:


> I spent years wishing my conflict avoidant father would divorce my overbearing mother. It made me understand exactly what I DIDNT want to be


Exactly! It also caused a Big loss of respect for my dad as it made me come to see him as weak and pathetic. My mom has lost all my respect for the way she treated my dad. Especially making fun of his ED in front of other women. He also helped create this monster called mom by not putting her in her place.

I used to wish he would find someone else and divorce her. He has been gone a year this past March after a heart attack. Mom has had reality hit her hard and alot or regrets. Including a son and grandkids that rarely visit or call. She can be her *****y overbearing 72 yr old self to her dogs.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

These children see and hear more than we think. My kids -12 and 15 -were NOT surprised at all when we told them that we are divorcing couple months ago.

Please make sure, dear men of TAM, that you don’t make this thread again about poor victimized men. There is plenty -if not more -women who have to deal with overbearing, demanding husbands. Socially this seems somowhat more acceptable...


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## lucy999 (Sep 28, 2014)

This post really hits home for me. My oldest sister was always a ***** growing up. She was always angry. Mom said she came out of the womb angry. She got married and has 2 lovely daughters, who have married and started families of their own. 

My sister has mellowed out a ton. She is downright pleasant. We have theorized it's because of the grandkids. That's all fine and good, but for her daughters? It's too little, too late.

My mom reports my nieces are really estranged from my sister because she was a horrible mother. Yelling, horrible temper . . . A *****. I believe every word.

Both of my nieces' spouses put up extremely strong boundaries on behalf of my nieces when it came to my sister. At first, my feathers were ruffled. I thought, that needs to come from her own daughters. My sister may be difficult, but she is still my sister and I'll always have her back. Then when my mom said that the girls would never have the courage to confront my sister, I understood because I never did, either. I then felt happy and proud that my nieces chose well in husbands.

They both are equally estranged from their father because he is a doormat and never intervened when my sister would verbally abuse the girls (and him).

The girls are super tight with their in-laws and I know that upsets my sister and BIL so very much. But it's their own fault.

The whole thing breaks my heart. I hope that one day, they can all come together and talk it out and the girls can forgive their parents.


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## examp (Aug 6, 2020)

Since this post is about me I think it is best to give more detail. When I got married I wasnt like that and argued a lot with her. After a time I realised that I would never get anywhere with her and decided to be like I am now. I didnt have yet children at the time. You are right in some ways. They dont harbour a grudge against me, and my wife I wouldnt call abusive against them either. But I remember someone coming to visit and my son must have been about ten and he said something to me in front of him and the visitor said to him, 'do you realise that man over there whom you are talking to, happens to be your father'. Well that should say it all. They certainly didnt respect me as a father. But my wife tried her best that I should have as little as possible to do with them especially when she was not about. I taught two of my children to read phonetically, but couldnt manage the others because of her. You make it sound simple in your post but believe me it isnt. I still think I did the right thing in the circumstances on the whole. Of course I made many mistakes but my children did turn out alright. As I wrote non of them live near me, and I am sure one of the reasons is not to have my wife meddling in their lives. I can only repeat I think all my children understand me well and are not sorry for the way I behaved. But again that doesnt bring them close to me.
I think you really have to decide what is better for children who would likely stay by the mother and get a step father if divorce, or just giving in to the mother. 
I would add one other thing. A woman has to want her husband for sex or some other reason then she will usually give in to him. If she doesnt, like in my case divorce is the true answer. The world is made for the woman to give in to the man, not because of force but she believes in him and wants him and knows if she doesnt she will lose him.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Everyone has to be their own person and in charge of their own life. It’s strange that people would rather be treated poorly then deal with conflict. You teach people how to treat you.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

And I’m pretty sure those people who treat their spouse like a doormat actually WANT their spouse to stand up for themselves.


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## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

Often the value judgement is avoid conflict, or lose your house, half of all you have worked for, and access to your children. The family courts are still not exactly friendly to the husbands and fathers before them.

Add to that that many men are socialized to 'suck it up' and do what needs done. You end up with the conflict-avoidant father who puts up with what he does because to do otherwise would be to risk losing what he values.

I can't speak for women, or their views on the topic. I'm not one. I can only relate my personal experience, and what I've seen my friends deal with.


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## examp (Aug 6, 2020)

DownButNotOut said:


> Often the value judgement is avoid conflict, or lose your house, half of all you have worked for, and access to your children. The family courts are still not exactly friendly to the husbands and fathers before them.
> Add to that that many men are socialized to 'suck it up' and do what needs done. You end up with the conflict-avoidant father who puts up with what he does because to do otherwise would be to risk losing what he values.


You could be speaking about me. 



Girl_power said:


> And I’m pretty sure those people who treat their spouse like a doormat actually WANT their spouse to stand up for themselves.


You are right they want a fight as often as possible. But who wants to join a fight one cant win. It is better not to give them what they want.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

It is sad, because today's society tells men to take a chill pill, let mom dictate things after all it's popular to display men as the goofy, whiny ones, in tv and media. 

That said a man, every man DOESN'T HAVE TO FOLLOW or listen to that rhetoric and must be sure to stand up for himself in all respects.

That's a choice the man has to make. It's his poor choice if he gives in to the temp femno centric times presently popular. 

A shame.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> It is sad, because today's society tells men to take a chill pill, let mom dictate things after all it's popular to display men as the goofy, whiny ones, in tv and media.
> 
> That said a man, every man DOESN'T HAVE TO FOLLOW or listen to that rhetoric and must be sure to stand up for himself in all respects.
> 
> ...


He gave it 50 years ago so you really can not blame it on today’s world.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Just as a balance - I was conflict avoidant, I was treated like doormat for 15 or more years. Money and children were on my mind when I kept enduring that crap. These things are on EVERYBODY’S mind, because it is huge thing. Divorce lowers the standard of living for everybody, specially women (against the popular belief here).
So, it’s not just men whose life gets screwed during divorce. It is one of the biggest decisions in life and comes with a lot of problems.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> It is sad, because today's society tells men to take a chill pill, let mom dictate things after all it's popular to display men as the goofy, whiny ones, in tv and media.
> 
> That said a man, every man DOESN'T HAVE TO FOLLOW or listen to that rhetoric and must be sure to stand up for himself in all respects.
> 
> ...


I don’t think society teaches men to take abuse and not to stand up for themselves. I think over the years there has been a lot of focus on female empowerment. And in my opinion you aren’t anti man just because your pro female empowerment. And female empowerment does not mean abusive. 

It was important to focus in female empowerment because not that long ago females were treated like second class citizen. I mean do you remember tv shows like “All in the family?”, the women on those shows put up with lot of behavior they shouldn’t have imo. 

So I did see this transition from the abrasive “leader” of a husband to the more funny, less intelligent husband on tv. And at the same time the women in those shows back in the day were stupid and bimbos.

Edit. Apparently someone has to be dumb for the show to be funny apparently. But I still think kids learn from their parents more than they do tv.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Girl_power said:


> *I don’t think society teaches men to take abuse and not to stand up for themselves.* I think over the years there has been a lot of focus on female empowerment. And in my opinion you aren’t anti man just because your pro female empowerment. And female empowerment does not mean abusive.
> 
> It was important to focus in female empowerment because not that long ago females were treated like second class citizen. I mean do you remember tv shows like “All in the family?”, the women on those shows put up with lot of behavior they shouldn’t have imo.
> 
> ...


Although I disagree with your first sentence ie; "he looked at me wrong 22 years ago and I've never been the same, no one saw, I haven't really thought about it, didn't bother me then, he didn't talk to me or touch me, but I realize now I'm damaged and should pound him with cancel culture and sexist shaming now...ie #metoo has been weaponized in some cases.

But I agree with your other responses. I grew up in an environment that taught and reinforced women are equal and can do anything they set their mind to, no worries on my foundational beliefs.

Today there is a societal tendency, now acceptable, to shame men for not being more feminine. Not all, but a lot of observations support that.

Not my opinion only, just observation. 



I


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## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

Girl_power said:


> I don’t think society teaches men to take abuse and not to stand up for themselves. I think over the years there has been a lot of focus on female empowerment. And in my opinion you aren’t anti man just because your pro female empowerment. And female empowerment does not mean abusive.


Society absolutely teaches men to take abuse. "Rub some dirt in it", "Man Up" are classic calls to a man to ignore personal pain, and get back to work. Society teaches men that they are expendable through male conscription, a work environment that sees men as 93% of all workplace fatalities, and the time honored maxim "Women and children, first". Men are expected to sacrifice their wellbeing, their bodies, and even their own lives if it achieves a societal goal or protects their families.

Men that try to stand up against that are ridiculed and shamed to bring them back in line. You know, man-babies, crybabies, such like that.

edit: To bring that back to the topic, since society expects the man to provide and protect his family, and to sacrifice for their wellbeing, if he thinks that "sucking it up" when he disagrees with his spouse is in the family's best interest that is just what he will do. Again, I can only speak from the male point of view here.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

DownButNotOut said:


> Society absolutely teaches men to take abuse. "Rub some dirt in it", "Man Up" are classic calls to a man to ignore personal pain, and get back to work. Society teaches men that they are expendable through male conscription, a work environment that sees men as 93% of all workplace fatalities, and the time honored maxim "Women and children, first". Men are expected to sacrifice their wellbeing, their bodies, and even their own lives if it achieves a societal goal or protects their families.
> 
> Men that try to stand up against that are ridiculed and shamed to bring them back in line. You know, man-babies, crybabies, such like that.
> 
> edit: To bring that back to the topic, since society expects the man to provide and protect his family, and to sacrifice for their wellbeing, if he thinks that "sucking it up" when he disagrees with his spouse is in the family's best interest that is just what he will do. Again, I can only speak from the male point of view here.


in capitalism every worker is expendable. Women are expected as much to sacrifice their wellbeing and their bodies. Married women have shorter life span than single women. The opposite for men: married men have longer life span than single men. What does that tell you? We are "sucking it up" all the time. For our children, families, etc. 

Taking care of children that you helped to make - that's not revolutionary concept in XXI century. It was always the case. One can argue, that now, with women working more and in better positions, men finally can share the duty of providing for the family more equally. At least money wise. Taking care of family is still seen mostly as work for woman, even if that woman works outside the house too.

Victomology is not attractive. Life is hard. When you have dependends, it's tougher. For everyone.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Feminized men is what society has conditioned as normal. Anything more traditional is rapey or misogynist. So, we end up with men their wives don't respect and their kids calling the shots. 

Another contributing factor of the increased rates of women cheating on their husbands and kids so confused, they don't know what gender they are...


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## GC1234 (Apr 15, 2020)

I think with the feminist movement, the roles of men and women have changed. I don't necessarily think it's a good thing, especially when in some cases (not all) men are emasculated. But, I also don't think it's a bad thing, b/c women who are abused by their husbands/SO can be independent. But each case is individual, can't really generalize it. There's all this talk about "toxic masculinity"... I'm not really sure what that is, but I think it's a given men shouldn't abuse women; however, there is plenty of "toxic femininity" too, women who cheat and want everything in the divorce, or think they're entitled to certain things b/c they are a woman. 

That's why men have sort of gone on strike, they want a woman who does more (work, household, take care of kids) b/c the courts are NOT in a man's favor, not that I can see anyway. However, to go back to the OP's argument though, NO ONE, man or woman (or otherwise) should settle for being a doormat! It sets a bad example that someday their kids shouldl not defend themselves. I struggled for years with standing up for myself, but now it's different; thankfully I've had good people along the way teach me to stand up for myself.


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## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

WandaJ said:


> in capitalism every worker is expendable. Women are expected as much to sacrifice their wellbeing and their bodies. Married women have shorter life span than single women. The opposite for men: married men have longer life span than single men. What does that tell you? We are "sucking it up" all the time. For our children, families, etc.
> 
> Taking care of children that you helped to make - that's not revolutionary concept in XXI century. It was always the case. One can argue, that now, with women working more and in better positions, men finally can share the duty of providing for the family more equally. At least money wise. Taking care of family is still seen mostly as work for woman, even if that woman works outside the house too.
> 
> Victomology is not attractive. Life is hard. When you have dependends, it's tougher. For everyone.


This isn't a competition of who has it hardest. My explaining the pressures on men to avoid conflict within a marriage is in no way meant to lessen any pressure women might experience.

I'd be interested in reading a study that shows never married women have a longer life expectancy than married/widowed women. Every study I've read to this point indicates the opposite. That for both males and females never married individuals are strongly correlated with lower life expectancy (or higher mortality).


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

WandaJ said:


> in capitalism every worker is expendable. Women are expected as much to sacrifice their wellbeing and their bodies. Married women have shorter life span than single women. The opposite for men: married men have longer life span than single men. What does that tell you? We are "sucking it up" all the time. For our children, families, etc.
> 
> Taking care of children that you helped to make - that's not revolutionary concept in XXI century. It was always the case. One can argue, that now, with women working more and in better positions, men finally can share the duty of providing for the family more equally. At least money wise. Taking care of family is still seen mostly as work for woman, even if that woman works outside the house too.
> 
> Victomology is not attractive. Life is hard. When you have dependends, it's tougher. For everyone.


That's not necessarily true. Plenty of studies have found no difference in longevity between single women and married women and vice versa for men. But it does make sense, men are also less prone to consult a doctor than women (unless a wife insists). Also, in those studies, single men have been catching up to married men in the past decades. If anything seems to hold true its that women have been found to live better alone than men. Men are more likely to remarry for whatever reason.

It has also found those that divorced, including divorced and remarried had lower life spans. Those that stayed single or those that stayed married lived longer.

It all depends on how you massage the data.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

This shouldn’t be a male vs female competition. Overall, the women’s movement has changed society, some for the good and some for the bad. 

But also times have changed in that you need a 2 parent income unless your a very fortunate high earner. 

When people treat their spouse like their are a doormat they are terrible people. But it’s the persons own fault if they put up with it. I’m not saying they don’t need help or assistance to leave, but you can’t get mad and magically expect the person to change and treat you better If you keep “going with the flow”.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

deleted


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## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

Girl_power said:


> This shouldn’t be a male vs female competition. Overall, the women’s movement has changed society, some for the good and some for the bad.
> 
> But also times have changed in that you need a 2 parent income unless your a very fortunate high earner.
> 
> When people treat their spouse like their are a doormat they are terrible people. But it’s the persons own fault if they put up with it. I’m not saying they don’t need help or assistance to leave, but you can’t get mad and magically expect the person to change and treat you better If you keep “going with the flow”.


Again, speaking only for myself.

So what are the real options when a man finds himself on the receiving end of an abusive relationship? And here, I'm including being a doormat as an abusive situation.

Assistance to leave is almost exclusively geared toward helping women and their children out of abusive situations. This is a good thing, and I do not begrudge one iota of help they receive.

1. He could suck it up and stay. This is the conflict avoidance option. He knows his situation but the value of lifestyle, and access to his children outweigh risks to himself
2. He could stand up for himself. What does this accomplish? An escalation of the cycle of conflict? Chances are the few times he has tried have shown him how his partner deals with conflict. Two parents constantly seen to be arguing is in no way beneficial to the children. Plus there are the risks that the cycle will turn physical. Or that the wife will take the children and leave. Neither is acceptable if you are doing it "for the children" as the topic suggests.

3. Leave. This means leaving his children in the care of his abuser. Was his presence saving them from being the target of abuse? More, he will be viewed as abandoning them in the eyes of family court. 
4. Leave with the kids. Now, he will almost certainly be flagged as a potential kidnapper and face an immediate amber alert. 

So yes it is his own fault for believing choice 1 is the only one that will keep him close to his children, and away from financial ruin.

Here's a little secret. The doormat man isn't getting mad and hoping for magical change. He as given up.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

DownButNotOut said:


> Again, speaking only for myself.
> 
> So what are the real options when a man finds himself on the receiving end of an abusive relationship? And here, I'm including being a doormat as an abusive situation.


The options are the same for men and women. What people chose in situation like this is based on their character, not gender. 

I still dare to say, that men are more likely to stand up for themselves and leave the abusive. situation than women. In general, statistically. Women are still groomed by society to be nice, and will try to "fix" things.


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## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

WandaJ said:


> The options are the same for men and women. What people chose in situation like this is based on their character, not gender.
> 
> I still dare to say, that men are more likely to stand up for themselves and leave the abusive. situation than women. In general, statistically. Women are still groomed by society to be nice, and will try to "fix" things.


So being willing to do whatever it takes to be present for your children's childhood is a character flaw? Is that what I am hearing?

Because if you look down my list of 4 choices, only 1 does not result in a man's children being taken away from him.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

DownButNotOut said:


> Again, speaking only for myself.
> 
> So what are the real options when a man finds himself on the receiving end of an abusive relationship? And here, I'm including being a doormat as an abusive situation.
> 
> ...


Are you talking about situation when divorce is not an option for financial reason? Unfortunately, that's real and common, and in my view, we would have much higher rate of divorce if people could afford it. It sucks. The risk of financial ruin is high - for both sides, not just man. It takes more money to keep two houses than one. So, there is really no magic solution here. You can enhance your professionals skills to increase income as a potential way out. That requires money and time too. When we chose the wrong partner, and then have children with them, that's will screw our whole life. Because of that one small mistake before. 

I understand all that. I am a woman and let myself be a doormat for years, for all the above reasons. Until I reached the bottom and had enough. Then the idea of living in a hut became attractive. Earlier I could not imagine leaving this house. Now other house (or apartment) is symbol of freedom. But I know many women who stay, who do not want to end up on the street. 

You can look at all this as common problems, even tragedies that million people face every time. Millions of people of both genders, men and women. Situations are very nuanced. Or you can see yourself as a victim of the system. But it is not system that vicitmizes, it is life. Life is not fair and when your mate picker failed you and the other parent of your children sucks, you screwed. But you can slowly work on long term plan heading towards divorce. Child care in many states is set as 50-50 between parents. You do not have to lose your children. 

1. Suck up and stay - both men and women do it. Often for financial reason.
2. Stand up for yourself - both men and women do it. Standing up means that you create boundaries in the marriage and do not allow yourself to be pulled in in the cycle of arguments. May lead to divorce. 
3.Leave - well, when you just leave like this, you risk loosing your children, whether you are man or a woman.
4. Leave with the kids. - kidnapping, not good either.

If you are in truly abusive situation, you can find assistance too. The system is not really that great and has a lot of problems. They will return kids to abusive parents, or make kid follow on visitation with sexually abusive parents, because they do not want to seem biased against fathers. These are real life examples I am familiar with.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

DownButNotOut said:


> Again, speaking only for myself.
> 
> So what are the real options when a man finds himself on the receiving end of an abusive relationship? And here, I'm including being a doormat as an abusive situation.
> 
> ...


You act like the best option is to stay and be the doormat. The OPs point in making this thread is that show how staying in a relationship like this is worse for the kids. 

IMO, this is just like every other problem in marriage. You address it with your spouse and talk about it. If things don’t change, you continue to address it, and consider counseling. If nothing changes you need to decide if this is something your willing to put up with because overall you would be happier with your spouse than without, then you do nothing and appreciate what you have and stop focusing on the negative. If it is something you cannot tolerate, then divorce. 

This is literally like every problem in marriage. Whether it’s lack of sex, lack of attention, disrespect, fallen out of love etc. we all make decisions to stay or to leave. 

But staying and being mad and angry at your spouse forever is not healthy. If you can’t fix something you have to learn how to live with it (not miserably).


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

DownButNotOut said:


> So being willing to do whatever it takes to be present for your children's childhood is a character flaw? Is that what I am hearing?
> 
> Because if you look down my list of 4 choices, only 1 does not result in a man's children being taken away from him.


Divorce takes away the child from both parents! No one wants to see their kid 1/2 the time and for half the holidays. 

No one is saying staying for the kids is a character flaw. But you can’t stay and absolutely hate your spouse and resent your spouse so much that the air is super toxic! Some people can look past issues and still love each other and be pleasant toward each other.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Divorce is terrible for all parties. Women pay alimony too FYI. 
Everyone wants as much custody with their kids as possible. But having them a lot still does not make things easy. It’s tough being a single parent. Kids are meant to have two parents together. Parents are meant to have another parent to help with the burden. It’s really really really hard to do this alone. 

The best thing would be to really be teammates and work together. Your not going to like each other all the time, and your not going to always be respectful all the time, we aren’t perfect. It’s ok to hold our tongues for the greater peace of a marriage. All spouses do this. 
But when there is constant and clear disrespect it needs to be cut out and addressed right away. Like pull them aside, don’t ever talk to me like that in front of the kids again. I mean it. And then... mean it. It needs to be addressed! Not after decades go by. At that point, what do you expect?


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

My mom has anxiety, and she holds everything in until she erupts, and she only erupts on my dad. Growing up I saw this often. And I am not saying it’s ok for my mom to do this bc it’s not. 
But In defense of my mom... man does she love my dad. And she takes care of him very well and he knows it. He knows because we have talked about it, that her angry and anxiety is just her inability to handle things well. And my dad is definitely a punching bag. And he didn’t like it, but he was ok with it because he knew there were some issues there. 

Anyway. My parents are very happily married. And now that all the kids are grown up my mom never lashes out anymore. Well... maybe 1-2x a year. And I am so thankful that my dad didn’t let his ego get the best of him and divorce my mom. 

During her fits my dad would always tell me, it’s ok, it will pass she is just really really mad and it’s finally coming out. He never made it about him, he never said how dare you talk to me that way, and disrespect me blah blah. It was just my mom boiling over and he was there for her during it. And I never once thought that my dad was weak for “taking it”, it was very obvious from me and my brothers that my mom was the crazy one that couldn’t deal with stress.


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## Cromer (Nov 25, 2016)

Girl_power said:


> Divorce is terrible for all parties. Women pay alimony too FYI.


93% of alimony in Florida is paid by men. That's why it's been SO HARD to pass alimony reform here. So yes, 7% of women here pay alimony.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Cromer said:


> 93% of alimony in Florida is paid by men. That's why it's been SO HARD to pass alimony reform here. So yes, 7% of women here pay alimony.


Let’s be honest, whoever makes more money will be paying alimony. 

When you have small kids at home, someone has to put their career second. Unfortunately. And I don’t mean they have to go part time or anything like that. But there will be days when kids are sick, or the bus is late, or they get sent home from school, and someone has to leave their work or whatever to deal with the kids.

Oh also, I know women who pay alimony to their ex husbands. One of them is a very very hard working nurse and doesn’t make that much money. And their kids are grown.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

If I ever get re married, it will be in my prenup that alimony is off the table.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

WandaJ said:


> These children see and hear more than we think. My kids -12 and 15 -were NOT surprised at all when we told them that we are divorcing couple months ago.
> 
> Please make sure, dear men of TAM, that you don’t make this thread again about poor victimized men. There is plenty -if not more -women who have to deal with overbearing, demanding husbands. Socially this seems somowhat more acceptable...


Hi Wanda, 
Thanks, a wise reminder. I agree it is socially more acceptable, though I think that is because mistreating a woman is more offensive to people; which means it is either taken gravely seriously or denied. I do not mean to trivialise it with those last words, I fear it is also why rape of women by men is so rarely prosecuted.
There is also the dynamic of whose responsbility the relationship is. Ideally, it would that both are responsible, but a woman being bullying the man will be seen as more his fault, whereas blaming the woman for being pushed around is not.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Feminized men is what society has conditioned as normal. Anything more traditional is rapey or misogynist. So, we end up with men their wives don't respect and their kids calling the shots.
> 
> Another contributing factor of the increased rates of women cheating on their husbands and kids so confused, they don't know what gender they are...


Men and women are pretty similar really. Generally, men tend to be know-it-alls about wider big affairs, whereas women will be know-it-alls about domestic matters. Women lie about what brave selfless martyrs and domestic goddesses they are, men lie about their phyical bravery and willingness to take on conflict. Women do have less oestrogen in their brains, which lends itself to being indecisive but more considered; but that might be largely conditioned too. 
We value what we have little of, and as a species, the most attractive men are the most masculine and the most attractive women are the most feminine. We look for different traits, because the differences are so very small.
As a young man, I did not consider myself particularly masculine. I played rugby, had a deep voice, little fat, chased down thieves (tried to with my pace) and punched people - but most men would have said they would do the same. It was not until my thirties that I realised most men were actually bluffing. At forty-four, my testosterone levels are that which you might expect from a criminal aggressive nineteen year old, but it only takes a little empathy and change of perspective to put myself in the shoes of cosmetics and soft furnishings-loving young wife.
I think what you refer to is people failing to live up to the roles. I can see why those roles were very necessary, but they were always a little one-size-fits all. 

"Anything more traditional is rapey or misogynist."
One of the great problems of these debates is that those putting forward progressive ideas are ususally idiots. "Toxic masculinity" is spoken about in the context that if only men were to talk to their women, the women would offer them huge amounts of compassion and support. Frankly, if women were typically ready for that, it would suggest that there was no such problem or that these problems only affect men. Clearly, nonsense. Generally, women are not going to want a man who earns less or opens up emotionally to them on anything other than an exception to prove the rule basis.
If I meet a woman in a pub, see she is drunk, offer to help her home as she is vulnerable and then I rape her, do you think I would be prosecuted? People will say yes, but the answer is almost certainly not. How could she prove she did not consent to rough violent sex with the man she left the bar with? It seems that in these situations, even her friends at teh bar would rather believe she consented rather than feel complicit. I would say that women are still far too vulnerable to rape, there is a reason it is rised higher and higher. 
Were men to be as vulnerable to crimes as severe as this, I suggest something would have been done. And, the difference does seem to be implicit misogyny.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

Cromer said:


> 93% of alimony in Florida is paid by men. That's why it's been SO HARD to pass alimony reform here. So yes, 7% of women here pay alimony.


I think in the west, the man is still seen as the grown up responsible for the marriage. Which is nonsense, but will linger for generations at least.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Mr The Other said:


> I think in the west, the man is still seen as the grown up responsible for the marriage. Which is nonsense, but will linger for generations at least.


The alimony is paid by the higher earner. Since men are still higher earners-and still many women being SAHM-that’s the result.


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## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

Mr The Other said:


> Were men to be as vulnerable to crimes as severe as this, I suggest something would have been done. And, the difference does seem to be implicit misogyny.


By some estimates 1 in 6 men will suffer a sexual assault or rape in their lifetimes.




__





Sexual Assault of Men and Boys | RAINN


Men and boys who have been sexually assaulted or abused may also face some additional challenges because of social attitudes and stereotypes about men and masculinity.




www.rainn.org








__





The 1 in 6 Statistic - Sexual Abuse and Assault of Boys and Men


At least 1 in 6 men have experienced sexual abuse or assault, whether as young boys or adult men. This statistic is likely a low estimate, since it doesn’t include non-contact experiences. If you’ve had such an experience, or think you might have, you're not alone—find support here.




1in6.org






But men are expected to be doers. They are expected to handle themselves. Admitting to being assaulted is admitting weakness, and victimhood. So men are less likely to admit to being assaulted than women. 








See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil: why do relatively few male victims of childhood sexual abuse receive help for abuse-related issues in adulthood? - PubMed


This literature review explores the reasons why comparatively few adult males with a history of childhood sexual abuse are seen by professionals for help with difficulties relating to that abuse. Two potential explanations are discounted as myths-that relatively few males are sexually abused...




pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov





I would argue that more isn't done because the accepted narrative of sexual assault is that it is something done almost exclusively by men to women. 

This is getting a little far afield from the topic though. Although, the general theme is that the male victim of spousal abuse has fewer support networks available to them, and more societal pressures to "just man up". Heck, in popular culture the trope of the "henpecked husband" is most often played for humor and/or ridicule. When the roles are reversed in entertainment, it is treated with the seriousness it deserves. Is it any wonder that many men see little option other than the "go along to get along" for the sake of their children?


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