# turning codependency around...



## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

so, i have been thinking, what is the best way to deal with codependency? its really easy to just tell someone to stop hanging their emotional well being on someone else, but its nearly impossible for them to understand how to actually DO it. 

and to be honest, im not sure we should be saying that. i mean, whats the problem with codependency? those of us who are experiencing the most profound joy in a relationship are pretty codependent as well, the only difference is that our partners are giving us the things that make us feel good. in other words, the reason we are so happy is because we constantly get the codependent reward. we are happy because we can make our partners happy.

but its more than that i think... its not just because we made our partners happy, its because they acknowledge that we made them happy. 

that above sentence is a double edged sword. on one hand, its saying that we have our efforts acknowledged, which is validating. its actually any healthy human would want, so whats the issue? that first italicized word is commonly sought after by all of humanity. we all love to have our efforts acknowledged. 

its the second word in italics. this word, made, connotes a lot. it means that we have the power to affect people. it means that we are important and intimately connected to others. the last word in the sentence is what gives us the validation. we already know that we are important, because our efforts are acknowledged. and we are empowered by the belief of the second italicized word. the last word? that gives us self worth. its the culmination of our "purpose", which is to make others happy. to know that we can cause joy. in other words, to love. 

so how is that bad? personally, i dont think most of it is. i think most of it is absolutely beautiful... except for one part. we have no power. we cannot make anyone do or feel anything. its impossible. we can provide them the situation which is easiest for them to feel the a certain way, but we cannot make them feel it. anyone at any time can choose to ignore their partners efforts. there may be an issue that weighs heavily on their mind, or they could just be daydreaming, off in lala land. its rarely, if ever, a conscious decision to ignore the efforts, but it happens quite often. we all assign varying degrees of urgency to various stimuli, and if responding to an act of kindness is of least importance at the moment, we ignore it until a later time, when its the most important thing in front of us. of course, human nature being what it is, we forget about it as we go about our day. 

the biggest problem isnt just that we codependent people think we can make people feel a certain way though. the problem is that we think our intentions can make them feel how we want them to feel. its a deeply ingrained belief that we know what our partners intentions are and they know ours. its a problem because none of us can read minds. the best we can do is guess. 

---continued-----


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

so, how do we get passed that? should we stop paying attention to our partners? should we stop expecting that we can make them happy? i dont think that would be a complete answer... if we completely stopped believing that we could, or should, try to make our partners happy, then why be in a relationship to begin with?

so what do we do with ourselves when we realize that we want to be a white knight? the common advice is that we should take our focus off of our partners. focus on ourselves. make ourselves happy instead of getting our joy from our spouses. 
but im not sure that this always brings us closer. it certainly helps us become more stable and self sufficient... but i dont think its always necessary. especially when our partners love us and really want us to be happy too. 

about that... what do we do when we spend our day trying to make our spouses happy by doing a whole bunch of things to MAKE them happy and yet they arent? that means they dont care about us, or they are choosing to walk all over us, or ignore our efforts and take us for granted....

you see that? if you had a negative reaction to that last sentence, its because its totally flawed in its logic. and therein lies the problem with codependency. it assumes that our partners know what is going on inside our heads. it assumes that we KNOW their intentions, and they intend to hurt us somehow and discredit our efforts to love. but of course, we have no way of knowing if they truely know our intentions. even if we tell the truth, they may wonder if we are lying. remember, they arent mind readers either. 

after thinking about such things for a while, i decided to embark on a little social experiment... it seemed to me that the ONLY real problem with codependency is that we dont understand our partners intentions. after all, we see our own intentions as so clear, and it seems to us that THEIR intentions are clear. but we really have no way of knowing. 
my wife is pretty codependent. so am i. i have been working on my codependency for quite a while now. im sure my wife has too, but i still see her getting frustrated with me easily. i understand why of course. her parents are extremely codependent. so, my wife is codependent, its just normal to her. so much so that i would say its part of who she is. she doesnt naturally stop and ask herself if i truly understand what she is intending. she is getting better at that, but its obviously a struggle. so this is what i decided to do...

i decided that i would accept her for all her codependent traits and give her the best environment to learn to live a happy and joyous life with me. when she did something for me, i started telling her that she made me happy. it makes her smile, often it makes her whole day. so, basically, i let her be her. she gets to MAKE me happy. even though she and i both know that she really cant MAKE me happy, knowing it and feeling it are two different things.

i told her how it makes me feel when she does something, good or bad. often, when its bad, she wanted to clear up the air and tell me what she intended. and that can be frustrating at times. thats where active listening comes in. you see, the communication is the difficult part. but, if she really wants to make me happy, i have to tell her how, and that means that we have to communicate. of course, she still needs to be validated. me telling her that her actions hurt slam pretty hard against her intentions. because she didnt intend it. so she wants me to know what she intended. if i accept her intentions, it means that she can let go of the guilt of hurting me.
remember, codependency believes that we can make someone feel a certain way. so, if i feel hurt in response to her actions, she feels like she MADE me feel that way. 

she loves me and wants me to be happy, so that makes her feel incredibly guilty. she pushes for the validation of her intentions because she wants to be resolved of the guilt. 

in those instances, its easy to give her that absolution if i never told her how her actions make me feel. (yeah i know, i have switched to the generic use of the word "make")
i really cant logically hold it against her if i never told her how i feel about it. so i tell her. 

telling her how i feel about her actions gives her all the ammo to do exactly what she wants to do... make me feel loved. it also gives her ammo to make me feel unloved, but hey, if i thought she didnt want to show me love, i would probably not be married anyway.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

so, the results? my wife is not confused anymore. she is still codependent, as am i, but we have a FAR better understanding of how to make each other feel loved. and we communicate much better than we used to. the best part? we both get to be us. there is not much expectation to change how we react to things emotionally. the only thing we have really changed is what we do about our emotional reactions. instead of just assuming we know each other, we ask each other how we are feeling. and we are honest with each other. we get to be blissfully codependent and we LOVE IT!

this is the part of our codependent natures that i wouldnt trade... when she does something for me that makes me feel loved, i really feel it. its profound. its like this voice in my head says "wow, she did that for me, nobody loves me that much, she REALLY loves me!" 

-cue romantic feelings. 

when i do something that she has told me makes her feel loved, she thinks something along the same lines. or she just feels it.

-cue romantic feelings.

so, now we both feel like we are the most special person in the world to each other. 

-cue limerence

whats funny is that after a couple years of this, we hardly suffer from codependency anymore. we still show that desire to please each other, but most couples do that. we just added in the one thing that was missing: honest communication of our intentions. 

so, if you or your partner is codependent, i would suggest that the only thing you really need to do is communicate your intentions to each other, assuming that you both love each other. you dont have to change your focus, you just have to change your communication habits. you need to communicate your intentions and be willing to seek out the intentions of your partner. not just be willing to hear it... seek it out. even in an argument. take it to heart. if they seem to be purposely ignoring you to hurt you, be willing to accept THEIR explanation of that they actually intended. that will help you let go of resentment. 

if your partner tells you how to make them happy, do it. that will help THEM let go of their frustrations. it feeds YOUR explanation of your own intentions when they just dont understand you. you might ask why i would rather focus on the methods of communication than the personalities of those who show codependent behaviors. after all, the standard advice is to "build" ourselves back up, to disconnect so that our partners dont have that kind of power over us. in cases where one partner has decided to abuse the other, this IS exactly what we should do. thats not always the case, however. quite often, what we see are two people who have just been so worn down that they dont even know how to talk to each other anymore. they still say they love each other, and are still willing to try, but there feeling at the end of their rope. 

well, i propose that the feelings that they have are NOT the problem. wanting to not upset their partner is not the problem. wanting their partner to be happy is not the problem. the problem almost always lies in their communication methods. its the particular way they go about communicating their feelings, or rather the way they DONT communicate. that is what makes them "codependent". codependent is when those feelings and desires shut down healthy communication. when healthy communication is present, the dynamic takes a different name with completely different meaning. its a word that describes a very tight relationship where both partners rely on each other. they form a cohesive team that is confident that the other has their interests at heart. they form bonds and strategies for dealing with conflict that carries them through the tough times, because they rely on each other. once a codependent couple learns to properly communicate, they become an *interdependent* couple. codependent couples tear themselves apart. interdependent couples constantly build each other up and strengthen their bonds. so if your in an codependent relationship, turn it around. communicate and become a strong unshakable team. become interdependent. its the relationship you have always wanted anyway. the best part is... you get to be exactly who you are, and be completely unashamed and empowered while doing so. 

anyway, i hope this helps someone out there who is in a codependent relationship and is ready to pull their hair out. 
because honestly, this is how i started viewing it a few years ago and ALL of my relationships have improved since then.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Exactly...Thank you. That was a fun read and well thought out.


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## OhGeesh (Jan 5, 2010)

CAN'T IMO!! You may be able to reduce it some people just need that constant validation from the opposite sex. Just like others don't need much if any social interaction at all. Just like some people can't shuttup and have to be the life of the party.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

For us communicating intentions was not enough. Because our relationship was/is abusive, and I suspect we both have PTSD, we had to focus on self acceptance (me) and others acceptance (H). One key ingredient missing in my H was self assessment. Another was gratitude. And in controlling his own pain he would try to control me. That didn't work out so well. He has had to learn to let go, put his eyes on his own paper as I have on mine. We approach each other out of compassion and understanding. The times that is most difficult is when one of us is PTSD triggered since seeing or hearing true intention is seriously affected by the PTSD filter.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

As'laDain said:


> so, if you or your partner is codependent, i would suggest that the only thing you really need to do is communicate your intentions to each other, assuming that you both love each other. you dont have to change your focus, you just have to change your communication habits. you need to communicate your intentions and be willing to seek out the intentions of your partner. not just be willing to hear it... seek it out. even in an argument. take it to heart. if they seem to be purposely ignoring you to hurt you, be willing to accept THEIR explanation of that they actually intended. that will help you let go of resentment.


This is the difficult bit for me... my wife doesn't communicate at all...


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Blossom Leigh said:


> For us communicating intentions was not enough. Because our relationship was/is abusive, and I suspect we both have PTSD, we had to focus on self acceptance (me) and others acceptance (H). One key ingredient missing in my H was self assessment. Another was gratitude. *And in controlling his own pain he would try to control me. *That didn't work out so well. He has had to learn to let go, put his eyes on his own paper as I have on mine. *We approach each other out of compassion and understanding. * The times that is most difficult is when one of us is PTSD triggered since seeing or hearing true intention is seriously affected by the PTSD filter.


I really liked these points, Blossom. I know you and your Dh have been through a lot, and I appreciate your sharing your journey with us. 

I think trying to control other people so we will not feel hurt by them is a very common mistake. I see all kinds of advice for doing it posted regularly.

The antidote, as I believe you mention, is really trying to understand where the other is coming from, and then brainstorming together how best to proceed. It is helpful not to assume nefarious motives, as AslaDain said, but to really look at what he or she was trying to communicate, and why. 

And when all has been said and brought out into the open, sometimes the best way to proceed is to simply agree to disagree.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

jld said:


> I really liked these points, Blossom. I know you and your Dh have been through a lot, and I appreciate your sharing your journey with us.
> 
> I think trying to control other people so we will not feel hurt by them is a very common mistake. I see all kinds of advice for doing it posted regularly.
> 
> ...


I believe there is a time for both depending on circumstances because of the presence of irrational thinking couple with violent attitudes. When someone is being violent emotionally, verbally, physically, it is up to the person on the receiving end to state what is no longer acceptable and create safety around themselves. Irrational tactics of control blameshifting, false accusations, gaslighting, mimimizing, etc make creating this safety even more difficult, but must be done before progress is made. In abuse cases the only chance for compassion and understanding to rise to the top is for order/rationality and safety to be restored. Learning cannot happen when violent attitudes and irrationality are on the scene because one or both will be in fight or flight meaning the learning center of the brain is shut off and the survival lobe of the brain is turned on. Therefore, knowing WHEN to use RATIONAL control to end abuse is key. Also knowing HOW to steer clear of irrational control, either giving or receiving as well as HOW to keep rational control in check so that it does not become irrational control is very important. I believe here inlies the secret to codependency.

And thank you for your thoughts, you are welcome


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

I read those posts as love, not codependency. If I didn't want someone to have influence in my life, I wouldn't have gotten married. I didn't read that as controlling. Maybe I missed something? I don't think so. Abuse makes us sensitive to so much. It's a terrible thing. It changes us so profoundly, it's a shame. Sorry you were abused.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Oh and my H wasn't able to agree to disagree because of the two skills that were missing, self assessment and non acceptance of a differing opinion. Thus he never let anything go. It resulted in dark brooding, escalation, all kinds of irrational violent behavior. As he is gaining skill in those two areas he is getting better at letting things go when necessary. His thinking is more rational. Thank you Jesus.


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## DayOne (Sep 19, 2014)

Blossom Leigh said:


> For us communicating intentions was not enough. Because our relationship was/is abusive, and I suspect we both have PTSD, we had to focus on self acceptance (me) and others acceptance (H). One key ingredient missing in my H was self assessment. Another was gratitude. And in controlling his own pain he would try to control me. That didn't work out so well. He has had to learn to let go, put his eyes on his own paper as I have on mine. We approach each other out of compassion and understanding. The times that is most difficult is when one of us is PTSD triggered since seeing or hearing true intention is seriously affected by the PTSD filter.


Ooof. That sounds horribly familiar (except for the PTSD).


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

DayOne said:


> Ooof. That sounds horribly familiar (except for the PTSD).


Thats because it was horribly codependent, but we are all learning better :smthumbup:

Lets just all choose to not go back there...


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Blossom Leigh said:


> Thats because it was horribly codependent, but we are all learning better :smthumbup:
> 
> Lets just all choose to not go back there...


your situation is made most difficult because your husband cant or wont hear you when you speak. 

he hears himself. if he cant accept what you say to be a true representation of your feelings, it means that he has not yet learned to accept himself.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

As'laDain said:


> your situation is made most difficult because your husband cant or wont hear you when you speak.
> 
> he hears himself. if he cant accept what you say to be a true representation of your feelings, it means that he has not yet learned to accept himself.


I think that is very accurate and it began to turn around when he kept his eyes on his own paper and surrounded himself with great support. His confidence grew and it was a BEAUTIFUL sight to see. There was a timeframe where I fequently had to remind him to get his eyes off my paper. Still happens, but less frequent now.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Does "keeping his eyes on his own paper" mean focusing on improving himself as opposed to telling you how to improve?


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## DayOne (Sep 19, 2014)

Blossom Leigh said:


> Thats because it was horribly codependent, but we are all learning better :smthumbup:
> 
> Lets just all choose to not go back there...


Agreed. :smthumbup:


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## DayOne (Sep 19, 2014)

jld said:


> Does "keeping his eyes on his own paper" mean focusing on improving himself as opposed to telling you how to improve?



In theory, yes.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

jld said:


> Does "keeping his eyes on his own paper" mean focusing on improving himself as opposed to telling you how to improve?


Yes, thank God, though this is not a strength yet. 

He has to work at it. It is not second nature. Interdependent feedback is good. Codependent feedback is destructive.

If his PTSD is triggered it is almost impossible. That is why I kicked him out this last time (though he is back now). He was pressing in hard on me and because I wasn't buckling he was escalating. He had three PTSD triggers or old tapes playing at the same time to the degree he could not see, hear me accurately. Even our Pastoral counselor looked at him and said, you need to work on viewing her accurately... Aka, realizing when he is triggered and manage accordingly like I had to do when we first met.


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## Akinaura (Dec 6, 2011)

Blossom Leigh, I think I might just steal that saying for myself! It's a really great way of gently reminding a spouse that they need to focus on themselves instead of everyone else. A little bit nicer than the saying I grew up with of "People in glass houses shouldn't throw bricks".

ETA: Blossom, do you and your H have a key word or phrase yet that can break through the PTSD triggers and get him to realize he is triggering?


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Gosh, we've tried different things. 

Right now none come to mind, but I do have a built strategy now for when he is. This last time it didn't work immediately because of the multiple tapes playing simultaneously, and took others getting involved to help him clear his fog. But the strategy still worked, just took longer, was more difficult and EXHAUSTED me with no immediate end in sight after six days already, so thats when I asked him to leave. I had to regain strength.

Two days later we met with our church counselors and his fog began to lift. But it still took a few more days to finally clear.

But here is the strategy..

Solid self acceptance
Complete with boundaries regarding destructive behaviors
As well as savvy of knowing when to release pressure
Honed personal integrity
Courage to stand on truth
No apology for standing on truth
Deep belief in speaking with calm dignity under fire

The last one is my weakness and I hone it all the time. It is very hard to maintain grace under fire, but extremely rewarding. There are times my switch flips and righteous indignation pours out. Even then I still work hard to keep it constructive and dignified. (Picture an intense Julia Sugarbaker).

ETA: Sometimes we will say during times of calm truth in the face of fire "this feels like an old tape is playing." You have to be very careful not to use it to invalidate or gaslight your spouse, but if you know you are calmly standing in truth, saying this in love is appropriate.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

codepenency is not the same as relying on each other. The premise of this thread started out with a false definition.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Thundarr said:


> codepenency is not the same as relying on each other. The premise of this thread started out with a false definition.


yes, and one that was stated clearly as a false definition. i also explained the correct definition. did you miss the point?


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Blossom Leigh said:


> But here is the strategy..
> 
> Solid self acceptance
> Complete with boundaries regarding destructive behaviors
> ...


i think this is an absolutely fantastic strategy. 
i think you are doing great. as you two continue to resolve conflicts and BOTH of you continue to see, together, that the PTSD and triggers are NOT going to destroy you and that you CAN and WILL move past them...
the fear of the triggers will become less and less. as the fear of the relationship being irreparably damaged subsides, it will be easier and easier to move past them. 

when you get to that point, honest communication and introspection is easy. when that happens, it will no longer feel so necessary to be in control of the situation all the time. 

it sounds like he is starting to see that, and your teaching him to see that. KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK!
:smthumbup:


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

You really are teaching him a lot, Blossom. And you are very patient with him. Do people tell him how lucky he is to have such a devoted wife? Is he recognizing that?


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

jld said:


> You really are teaching him a lot, Blossom. And you are very patient with him. Do people tell him how lucky he is to have such a devoted wife? Is he recognizing that?


They do. And he is. 

In our Pastoral meeting a couple of weeks ago it even made the counselor cry when he heard my passion FOR my husband through my own pain.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

As'laDain said:


> yes, and one that was stated clearly as a false definition. i also explained the correct definition. did you miss the point?


I like a lot of what you said AD especially about inter dependence vs co dependence but yes I missed where you actually defined it. The statement below twist it out of context by my interpretation in a way that would allow anyone to say they're in a co dependent relationship and that's not accurate by the common definitions. That's my opinion anyway.



As'laDain said:


> and to be honest, im not sure we should be saying that. i mean, whats the problem with codependency? those of us who are experiencing the most profound joy in a relationship are pretty codependent as well, the only difference is that our partners are giving us the things that make us feel good. in other words, the reason we are so happy is because we constantly get the codependent reward. we are happy because we can make our partners happy.



Here's some definitions that didn't jump out at me above. That means someone who's in a co dynamic relationship but doesn't really know it yet will have no idea that you're giving good advice to them.

Wikipedia


> Codependent relationships are a type of dysfunctional helping relationship where one person supports or enables another person’s addiction, poor mental health, immaturity, irresponsibility, or under-achievement. People with a predisposition to be a codependent enabler often find themselves in relationships where their primary role is that of rescuer, supporter, and confidante. These helper types are often dependent on the other person's poor functioning to satisfy their own emotional needs.[1] Codependency often involves placing a lower priority on one's own needs, while being excessively preoccupied with the needs of others.[2] Codependency can occur in any type of relationship, including family, work, friendship, and also romantic, peer or community relationships.[2] Codependency may also be characterized by denial, low self-esteem, excessive compliance, or control patterns.[1]


Webster (but I like wikipedia's more concise definition better)


> - a psychological condition in which someone is in an unhappy and unhealthy relationship that involves living with and providing care for another person (such as a drug addict or an alcoholic)
> - a psychological condition or a relationship in which a person is controlled or manipulated by another who is affected with a pathological condition (as an addiction to alcohol or heroin); broadly : dependence on the needs of or control by another
> - a psychological condition or a relationship in which a person is controlled or manipulated by another who is affected with a pathological condition (as an addiction to alcohol or heroin); broadly : dependence on the needs of or control by another
> - An extreme dependency by one person on another who is suffering from an addiction. Common characteristics include low self-esteem coupled with a high need for approval. Not a formal psychiatric diagnosis, codependency is a psychological syndrome noted in relatives or partners of alcoholics or substance abusers.


learners dictionary (but I like wikipedia's more concise definition better)


> - a psychological condition in which someone is in an unhappy and unhealthy relationship that involves living with and providing care for another person (such as a drug addict or an alcoholic)


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Wikipedia definition is DEFINITELY better.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

codependency is caring for someone else to the detriment of the person doing the caring. they enable the bad behavior that bothers them so much because they are afraid of losing the reward of codependency, which is the feeling of being needed. but, the bad behavior creates strife, guilt, anxiety, etc, and they still make it easier for their partner to engage in it.

here on TAM, we have a tendency to label people who are passive aggressive as codependent. and they usually are. but they enable the behavior that causes them strife in a different way than the person who drives the alcoholic around. instead, they get all pissy with them when they dont get the reaction they are looking for and in turn create the very situations where they are most likely to get the response that they DONT want. instead of speaking up and saying, "hey, i told you i love you and i wanted you to tell me you love me too," they get upset and do stuff like give them the cold shoulder, or just treat them like crap. which of course, makes the other person less likely to say "i love you", because it feels to them like a lie. 

it may be a backwards way of defining codependency, but in this context, they are doing the exact same thing. they are enabling the situation that causes them strife. they depend on their spouse needing them. but that doesnt actually mean their spouse needs them... it doesnt matter. they still depend on that feeling of being needed, of being loved. basically, they want to know and feel that they are indispensable to their partners.

when they start speaking up, the other partner can give them what they needed from the start. it stops being codependent because its no longer damaging to the relationship or the person, but instead brings them both closer. open communication STOPS the cycle of damaging behavior.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

I have considered developing a relationship course. Would probably take quite a while, but I see need for practical application.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

As'laDain said:


> codependency is caring for someone else to the detriment of the person doing the caring. they enable the bad behavior that bothers them so much because they are afraid of losing the reward of codependency, which is the feeling of being needed. but, the bad behavior creates strife, guilt, anxiety, etc, and they still make it easier for their partner to engage in it.
> 
> here on TAM, we have a tendency to label people who are passive aggressive as codependent. and they usually are. but they enable the behavior that causes them strife in a different way than the person who drives the alcoholic around. instead, they get all pissy with them when they dont get the reaction they are looking for and in turn create the very situations where they are most likely to get the response that they DONT want. instead of speaking up and saying, "hey, i told you i love you and i wanted you to tell me you love me too," they get upset and do stuff like give them the cold shoulder, or just treat them like crap. which of course, makes the other person less likely to say "i love you", because it feels to them like a lie.
> 
> ...


Great point.

I have thought at times that we were codependant, and after clarifying with a good MC, what we were really doing was being passive-aggressive.

When we started to own and voice our thoughts, feelings, and what made us feel good and bad, what we thought was codependance mostly went away.

I think some people mistake 'needing' or 'wanting a lot' or looking for occasional 'support' from your partner is a bad thing because it's codependant. When it's really not, as long as you're not exessively harming yourself by supporting your spouse.

What you're actually doing is the reason why a lot of people get married to begin with -- to expect the other person to be there when you need them, or want them, or need support from them.


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