# How bad did I screw up?



## GreenandBlue (Oct 20, 2009)

Well, in the midst of marital conflict (we have been separated just over a week) I try to be positive, fun loving, thoughtful, etc. *refer to "My Story" for, well, my story.

But I keep screwing up. First, when we made the decision to separate she was going out of town the next day and we were gonna wait til she got back to sit down and talk to the kids. While she was gone, I sat down with them and laid the groundwork (well, I basically told them that mommy might be staying with grandma for a while so that we could work through some problems), they are 10 and 8. My thinking was that I could hold it together better without her sitting beside me and I didn't want them to see their dad falling apart.

But that was wrong. It was selfish and I should have waited...she was very upset with me.

Forward to yesterday. She has made an appt with a marriage counselor. However, she isn't currently seeking marriage counseling. She said that she is going to work on herself...she'll decide later if she wants to even work on the marriage.

I contacted the same couselor looking for advice about whether I should make an invididual appt with her to work on my issues, in hopes that when/if my was ready we would have a head start...or I should see a separate counselor. 

She advised me to see a separate counselor until my wife, her client she put it, was ready to do a joint session. 

My mistake was, when I asked her about seeing me, I said "I need some help processing her infidelity and our separation". 

The counselor called me out on revealing that. I told my wife about what I said and she was again hurt, saying that she should have been the one to reveal that and now the therapist has a preconceived opinion of her. She said it was just like the situation with me talking to the kids.

I feel like the biggest selfish jerk. I asked her to forgive me. I try to do everything right, then a lapse in judgement threatens to undo all of my efforts.

Am I being too hard on myself?


----------



## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

Talking to the kids in advance was a major fubar especially after you and your wife agreed on a plan. I've not read your other thread but let me guess that one of the issues your wife has with you is a controlling attitude. You have little control in the situation now, she holds the cards. You need to work with your wife on a plan and stick with it. She has said she doesn't know if she is ready to work on the marriage yet. Continued behavior like this will seal the deal for her.


----------



## GreenandBlue (Oct 20, 2009)

Oh no doubt, I am making a mess of it. But really, selfish mistakes of that nature are uncharacteristic of me. 

She just sent me a message yesterday thanking me for helping to make our 10 yr old's birthday party such a wonderful event and said how great father I was. I just want those types of feelings to be prevalent in her mind as this thing settles in.

I do have some control issues. Nothing major or abusive, mind you. Just out of necessity, really.

She does hold the cards and I hate it. She's the one with a history of straying and I'm the one who fights to hold it together.


----------



## lastinline (Jul 21, 2009)

Wow, for shame...she cheats and you revealed it to her counselor. In my opinion, that at least makes you a tattletale. R. U. sh*tt*ng me guy? Are these two things in anyway comparable? I think not. Hmmm, let me see, why might you have a "controlling attitude"? Could it be your wife cheats. Yep, that just might shorten the ol' trust leash some. Come on Amplexor, I realize he is a guy and all, so somehow he has to be at fault, but can't you see it from his side? Her counselor has a "preconceived notion", please...how about an "accurate notion". 

For the record GreenandBlue, you hold at least as "many cards" as she does, unless you too have an undisclosed track record of infidelity. I would humbly recommend that you take a stand and show some dignity. No more begging. You're a man, not a dog. In the poker game of life, actions always trump words. What you said was wrong friend, but what she did was way wrong. LIL


----------



## GreenandBlue (Oct 20, 2009)

Thanks LIL. 

Telling her counselor that before she has even had an 'in-office' meeting was really bad form. It was not my place to do that and it possibly adds another brick to the emotional barrier that I want to take down. 

My 'control' is rarely presented in terms of keeping my thumb on her. She has interests and hobbies that I fully endorse as healthy and balanced.

Trust me, I haven't begged and I let her know that I needed her to stay somewhere else (though, she was thinking it too and it is her choice to continue to stay at her parents). However, I did let her know that I am an advocate for keeping our marriage together and giving it our best shot.

I called her out on her lack of respect for me and our family. I've never been unfaithful. But I let her know, that there had many times when a female stroked my ego and I knew that I had an "open invitation". But I was never willing to pay the cost of such a misstep so I remained faithful.


----------



## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

lastinline said:


> Come on Amplexor, I realize he is a guy and all, so somehow he has to be at fault, but can't you see it from his side? Her counselor has a "preconceived notion", please...how about an "accurate notion".


Had you read my post you would have seen I made no remarks about the counselor, her infidelity, how they got here, or who's fault it was. Simply stated that that agreeing on a plan of action with the children then directly taking another is a simple way to make sure recovery crashes and burns. Simply answering the the OP's question and making an observation.


----------



## lastinline (Jul 21, 2009)

Fair enough Amplexor...makes sense to me. I stand corrected. LIL


----------



## brighterlight (Aug 13, 2009)

GreenandBlue, As with every cheater - be prepared to take the blame. They always blame the non-cheating spouse for driving them to cheat. More than likely it's another reason she got upset at you disclosing to the counselor about her infidelity. She wants to prop her up first about the way she was feeling about her marriage that forced her to cheat.

Sorry, and I know folks will roast me at the stake on here but in the end you will also be responsible for her cheating.

And the fact that other women have "stroked your ego" and you decided to do the right/decent/moral/faithful/obligation to your marriage/loving to your wife/respectful/true to your marriage vows/honorable thing and not cheat has no bearing on anything!! LOL! Sorry to tell you you could have have had a free cheat and then you could have blamed your W for driving you away. Ha, this stuff just makes me want to puke. How about cheaters just fessing up and taking MOST of the blame cause they sure as [email protected] usually settle for 50/50. 

The truth is, that unhappy couples get created out of a viscious circle of bad feelings. She did this to you, you do this to her becuase she did this to you, then she does this to you becuase you did that to her becuase she did this to you, and on and on and on until one person in the party breaks.

So just to be philosophical here and for the sake of discussion, you could have actually gone out yourself and had a few minutes of fun with someone else, then come back and work on saving your marriage. Right? So, what I am saying is that NO ONE needs to cheat, there is no excuse for cheating unless you are weak. Why not go to counseling before it gets that far.

Basically what the cheater is relaying to the spouse is that:

"Hey, I've been perfect so you never had to feel like you needed to get attention from someone else but you on the other hand have made me miserable so I will just go ahead and seek attention elsewhere."

Wake up call folks - Most of the time the non-cheating spouse has been unhappy at one point or another in the marraige and decided to be responsible and work through the hardship. As in GreenandBlue's case I'm sure.

Sorry, I just needed to vent.


----------



## GreenandBlue (Oct 20, 2009)

Bigger sin was definitely hers. However, I'm sure I contributed in many ways. 

I've been reading Andrew Marshall's "I love you but...I'm not in love with you". 

Neither of us were meeting each other's needs and something as simple as recognizing each other's 'love language' would have allowed us to understand what we needed.


----------



## GreenandBlue (Oct 20, 2009)

My wife is really upset that I interfered. She just asked me to send the email correspondence that I had with her therapist. 

I was so ashamed that I deleted them last night, which looks more suspicious.

I emailed the counselor and asked her to forward the emails to my wife.


----------



## recent_cloud (Apr 18, 2009)

hey, what you did was ill informed and poor form at worse.

but it's not like you did something really damaging and hurtful to your marriage, like, um, cheating on your spouse.


----------



## GreenandBlue (Oct 20, 2009)

I know. My judgement is just usually much better than that. 

Besides, its not like I can throw that in her face whenever I feel like it. "....but at least I didn't CHEAT on YOU". Now that is bad form, lol.


----------



## hoping (Sep 28, 2009)

can i ask why you are the one feeling the blame here?

honestly, there is never just one person responsible for a problem in the marriage, but, usually their is one that does the most damage.... and i'm sorry but from your post i see her as that person, granted, you did wrong, we all do at times, but she is the one that went WAY out of line here, not you.

i would tell her that you're sorry she sees it as you undermining her therapy, BUT, you were looking for help too and thought "well my wife thinks this is a good person, why not?"!!!! 

ok may be not that exactly... but you get the point. and as far as the controlling label.. i fell for it, and i am sure a lot of people do, she knows she is in the wrong, she did the crime. are you sure she is not just using it to place the blame on you for her indiscretions?


----------



## GreenandBlue (Oct 20, 2009)

Perhaps I'm making to big a deal over it. I'm just venting. 

I want to give us a chance and interfering will not help.

She knows she is at serious fault here. It is REALLY good that she recognizes this and sought counseling to work through her issues that stem back to childhood. I'm sure at some point they will get to our marriage issues.

I'm okay though. This is either an opportunity for us to finally get to the real issues and stop the pattern...setting us for a more fullfulling future. Or its an opportunity for me to start again and find someone who will be a better mate.


----------



## recent_cloud (Apr 18, 2009)

GreenandBlue said:


> I know. My judgement is just usually much better than that.
> 
> Besides, its not like I can throw that in her face whenever I feel like it. "....but at least I didn't CHEAT on YOU". Now that is bad form, lol.


hell, i would.:smthumbup::smthumbup:

i'd say it certainly whenever she tried to use a mild faux pas on my part to change the focus of the problem.

and i'd say it as often as i felt the need to express myself.

and as for your judgement, hey, lightem up on yourself.

no one is perfect.

let me see if i can drive this onto your street: 

you stepped on your wife's toe.

your wife ripped your heart out of your chest and stomped on it.

let me park this at your house:

your faux pas was a mildly annoying summer rain

your wife's behaviour was a tsunami

compare and discuss.


----------



## hoping (Sep 28, 2009)

sorry if i misunderstood. 

it sounds from that post as if you have a better handle on things then i thought. i wish you the best and i wish your wife the best.

good luck


----------



## brighterlight (Aug 13, 2009)

GreenandBlue, I know it's a bad situation that was a result of both of you not doing certain things for each other. I know that completely becuase I went through that.

And you are right, you can make your marriage better than it has ever been so I hope you two can work it out and see the potential in each of you for each other.

What I was trying to point out in my last thread was that it makes me a bit angry when the cheater tries to justify their actions by pointing the finger at the non-cheater and say that it was your doing that led me astray. C'mon - I think you see the fallicy in that. If what the cheater says is true then they need to regress a little bit and think back and wonder why when you were done wrong at some point in your marriage YOU did not run off to someone else. This is where I find it difficult to swallow that the cheater feels like it's equally your fault. No - it isn't. It's some of your fault and MOST of it the cheater

:iagree: with hoping.


----------



## joevn (Oct 23, 2009)

There's no comparison between what she did and what you did.

She's trying to shift the spotlight to you and away from her guilt/responsibity as the cheating spouse.

It is what it is. You should quit obsessing about this side distraction...Sometimes, we need to call a spade a spade.


----------



## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

I agree with others who point out that as long as she has you worrying about this minor gaffe that any decent counselor is TRAINED to anticipate and deal with professionally and put in perspective for their client, it takes the focus off her cheating behavior--at least for a small while.

It is avoidant behavior that the counselor will work with her to stop.

Just step away from giving more info until you have joint sessions.

In the meantime, get your ducks in a row.


----------



## GreenandBlue (Oct 20, 2009)

Well, basically the counselor let me know that what I revealed to her was inappropriate. My wife hasn't raised a big stink about it. She only voiced her displeasure (which I can understand) and later asked if I would forward my email correspondence with the counselor to her so that she could see what we talked about (reasonable). I just felt like a real selfish jerk about it myself.

The lying and the betrayal are still chief in my mind. But I don't really keep it in my active mind as I need to function.

We spent time today working on a community haunted house project. We'll spend time the next two evenings as well. 

I don't get it. We're separated. She is not currently interested in working things out and said in her mind she is already gone. Yet we interact almost daily and get along so well. Throughout the nearly 20 years I've known her, no matter what happens, she's always held the cards and it was her decision whether to stay or go. We broke up several times when we were dating (over a period of 7 years off and on) and it was always her wavering. 

Crazy thing is, I always feel like I have the upper hand (or "hand" in reference to Seinfeld episode) during the good times...I'm the more confident one and the unmistakable leader in our relationship. Then she pulls the rug out from under me and that dynamic is flip-flopped. In those 20 years, I'll bet it's happened half a dozen times or more and I immediately am the puppy dog hoping she will throw me a bone. I hate that about me. She cheats on me and I feel powerless, praying that she will give us anther chance. WTF is wrong with me? 

Just venting, sorry, lol.


----------



## joevn (Oct 23, 2009)

GreenandBlue said:


> I hate that about me. She cheats on me and I feel powerless, praying that she will give us anther chance. WTF is wrong with me?


It's all about self-respect.

Think of what you would advise if this were to happen with your son. And you were the father giving him advice of what to do.

Then apply the same advice to yourself. I bet you would snap out of it and go WTF...


----------



## GreenandBlue (Oct 20, 2009)

Excellent point, Joevn!

I would definitely tell her to hit the bricks if it were just me and her.

Or if I didn't think that counseling could have a profound effect on her (she had several self-realizations from Dr. Phil books that astounded me 2 years ago...I'm like, how could you NOT know that?)

I'm optimistic because SHE is the one who understands the need for counseling. That's gotta be a good sign.


----------



## hoping (Sep 28, 2009)

i'm sorry, but she may not realise she needs counseling yet... if it is a pattern with her, then this may , at the moment, be just one more diversion that she wants to throw at you. if it is, i hope she is stuborn and sticks with it to prove to you that she was right, it would do her good it sounds like. i also hope that you are going to follow thru with seeing a therapist, it sounds like you could benefit from it as well (no offense, i just think it would help you)

enjoy the time she shares with you but don't get your hopes up. she may have realy checked out and is just unsure how to move on?


----------



## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

GreenandBlue said:


> I don't get it. We're separated. She is not currently interested in working things out and said in her mind she is already gone. Yet we interact almost daily and get along so well. Throughout the nearly 20 years I've known her, no matter what happens, she's always held the cards and it was her decision whether to stay or go.


Pretty simple really. Since she has "checked out" there is no stress in the situation with working or interacting with you. It is your joy to have to work through the emotional confusion. She holds the cards because she has not committed to reconciliation. You on the other hand feel somewhat helpless because there is little you can do to move things forward. Very normal.

It is apparent that over the term of the relationship the two of you disconnect and serious issues arise from it. Your wife suffers from low self esteem and requires validation and emotional support. She has repeatedly engaged in emotional and physical affairs when the disconnect happens. This only serves to worsen her self esteem issues as she knows this behavior is both wrong and damaging to the marriage. Because the marriage has recovered before the cheating becomes easier because the risk of failure appears to be lower. The cycle will continue until you make it very clear that this is the last shot and any other missteps means end of game, period. While the marriage has its problems her behavior is inexcusable no matter the drivers. 

Reading your other thread I suspect that one of the problems in the relationship is a lack of communication on core issues. You state that you don't argue much but also take pride in your ability to maintain self control and not blow up. An admirable quality but not necessarily healthy for the relationship because little issues and problems fester until they hit critical mass and the whole thing blows up. You cannot put the relationship on "auto-pilot" and expect it to strengthen, it will take work.

Your wife has issues and her going to counseling alone is probably the best course of action. She needs to address her needs for attention & emotional support and determine if she is capable of finding a proper channel for them. You are the correct channel not an EA or PA. She will need to make that commitment first before she is ready to work on the marriage. I suspect this will be a struggle as you have stated she has difficulty in committing to something and following through.

From your posts I feel you are a bit on the fence about trying to recover also. Certainly understandable since you've been emotionally burned by her multiple times. There is a lot of risk for you to try again with a poor track record. If you want the marriage to recover you will need to commit to the effort, let her know that but she needs to know she needs to move toward commitment and recovery. This is not a lifetime offer. IF you can't commit to it then the battle is probably lost and you should prepare yourself and your family for divorce. For yourself read Dobson's Love Must be Tough, it will help you deal with the emotional strain and help you to gain control of some of the "cards" you don't feel you have now. It did wonders for me. If there are issues you need to address to make the recovery possible then work on those and show her you are trying through your actions. Seek a counselor for yourself. Make sure that they are qualified for marriage counseling also. If your wife isn't ready to have you join her with her counselor you can always invite her to join in your sessions when you feel the time is right.

Your marriage is severely damaged and recovery will take time. My marriage is in its 3rd year of recovery since the discovery of my wife's EA. It has taken a lot of effort on both our parts. Some aspects of our marriage are better and stronger than they ever were. Some are still a work in progress but all in all the marriage is very good. 

It takes time and a lot of it. Good luck.


----------



## GreenandBlue (Oct 20, 2009)

Good advice, hoping.

She has done all the legwork in terms of the therapist. She got the referral from her doctor even before I knew "we need to talk". 

I'm sure the therapist will at some point get to the point that 'she' is the only barrier in our marriage working. She has a willing husband who is not egotistical enough to think that he(me) does not need to feed the relationship and learn new strategies. 

At least that's what I'm banking on. If she has checked out and won't reconsider and work through the 'valley', then oh well. I'll move on with my life and know that I gave it every chance to keep my family together.


----------



## GreenandBlue (Oct 20, 2009)

Wow. Thanks so much Amp. I really appreciate you reading through all of that and offering such a spot on analysis. 

Awesome work, my friend! And I agree with everything you said.

Thanks.


----------



## GreenandBlue (Oct 20, 2009)

Uh oh. I just found something on her Facebook page that grabbed my gut.

She posted a song on there twice this week that she said was "beautiful". It is a song clearly full on limerence and it really captures the feelings of someone who is in love or speaking to a new lover.

We have been separated for 2 weeks now. We speak to each other every day many times and see each other often. I haven't noticed any other clues or signs in her interactions with me to lead me to believe she is still talking to her "friend". 

What do I do if I find out she is still in communication with him? We both have individual counseling sessions the week of Nov 9th.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

The road ahead is filled with misery if you remain with someone like this. Accept the truth - you are a good, honest and committed husband. You have been enchanted by someone who lacks integrity and self control. You deserve better. It is that simple. You talk about how well the day to day works. And that is fine. But it is not enough. Something core is missing in your interaction. And it is not fixable, or one/both of you would have fixed it by now.






GreenandBlue said:


> Uh oh. I just found something on her Facebook page that grabbed my gut.
> 
> She posted a song on there twice this week that she said was "beautiful". It is a song clearly full on limerence and it really captures the feelings of someone who is in love or speaking to a new lover.
> 
> ...


----------



## GreenandBlue (Oct 20, 2009)

I think it could be fixable. We have never really access the tools necessary to provide that help. We've never been to counseling and I'm reading some books that have really given me some light bulb moments.

I'm reading Andrew Marshall's "I love you...but I'm not in love with "
and I've ordered Love Must be Tough by Dobson and Chapman's the Five Love Languages.


----------



## angelj (Jul 1, 2008)

Greenandblue, Andrew Marshall's book saved my marriage.


----------

