# Sexless Marriage Help



## Kickit40 (Jul 21, 2016)

My wife (LD) & me (HD) are in our mid 30's and have been married for 6 years. 

Ever since we started having kids (2) we have struggled in our sex life. While she was pregnant she didn't want to have sex and struggled significantly ever since. 

We went to sex therapy for a few sessions and then she got pregnant and the same struggles began again. 

Over the past 6 months we have starting to talking more about our challenges but without much luck on my end. 

We tried to have sex the other night and it didn't go so well. She cried and said she couldn't mentally get engaged. 

Her dad had several affairs when she was a child and then her mom would teach her that sex was bad. 

I handle the kids well, do plenty of house chores, take vacations together, and we go on date nights every week. 

I am starting to come to the conclusion she has a psychological block from her childhood that is affecting our sex life. The Sex Therapist ever thought this could be part of the problem. 

Has anybody experienced this? Any thoughts or guidance?

Thanks in advanced.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

Kickit40 said:


> My wife (LD) & me (HD) are in our mid 30's and have been married for 6 years.
> 
> Ever since we started having kids (2) we have struggled in our sex life. While she was pregnant she didn't want to have sex and struggled significantly ever since.
> 
> ...


What was your sex life like BEFORE she started having children?


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

OP,
I do know that what children learn in their formative years from authority figures, like parents, is very hard to overcome. On some levels it seems easy but if you delve more deeply into the behavior you find them deeply rooted in the psyche. I believe that, rarely, they can change but it requires a level of maturity and understanding that few attain in their life. Sad but unfortunately true. Open, honest, communication is critical to having any measure of success in this. I wish you good fortune.


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## Kickit40 (Jul 21, 2016)

We were having sex 1 to 2 per week. 

On somedays our schedules were opposite of each other but we both enjoyed the sex.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

I think you should go back to therapy. There are many reasons a mother of young children might not want sex. Hormones out of whack, exhausted, not feeling feminine or sexy, pain during sex from damage during delivery, etc. etc. And, of course, there is a possible psychological issue at play, too. I don't think this is something that will improve without professional help.


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## Kickit40 (Jul 21, 2016)

I have brought up therapy again and she didn't want to go back --- said it didn't help. I wonder if it's bc she is forced to talk about her dad. 

She has said she feels guilty about being LD but I haven't a lot of movement to correct. I suggested talking to her doctor and her comment was you know how embarrassing that is.


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## GuyInColorado (Dec 26, 2015)

It will only get worse. You need to get a plan. How old are the kids? I waited until my youngest was 4 years old to divorce. 

You need to be clear with her that marriage involves sex and without it, we are only roommates. You'll be forced to find someone else that wants to have sex with you.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

Kickit40 said:


> I have brought up therapy again and she didn't want to go back --- said it didn't help. I wonder if it's bc she is forced to talk about her dad.
> 
> She has said she feels guilty about being LD but I haven't a lot of movement to correct. I suggested talking to her doctor and her comment was you know how embarrassing that is.


If she''s lacking motivation to seek help, motivate her! As @GuyInColorado said, she has no reason to put in any work to fix the problem. If you explain to her that marriage is a sexual relationship and that this is a hill you're willing to die on, so her choices are fix the problem for real or find herself divorced, she will be forced to either work toward change or let you go.

What's more embarrassing, talking to the doctor or explaining to her close friends she got divorced because she denied her husband sex and he couldn't take it anymore?

If she feels guilty, it's clearly not that much guilt. Otherwise, she'd be doing everything in her power to find and solve the problem.

Thing is, before you say it you have to mean it. You have to mean that you will divorce if she isn't willing to address the problem and seriously work on improvement.


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## firefairy (May 21, 2012)

After my second daughter I changed a lot. I went from being wild and outgoing in the bedroom to rarely ever wanting sex. I was in mommy mode. I was tired. I didn’t feel sexy because I was constantly thinking about taking care of the kids, the house, cooking, money, etc. Etc. BUT on any given date night or evening alone without our kids, I was always open to having an intimate session! 
I would take the advice from the others who have posted about sexless marriages. Your wife needs to understand that this is something that is a serious issue for you. That either you work on it together or take the serious risk of letting it be the end of your marriage down the road.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Kickit40 said:


> My wife (LD) & me (HD) are in our mid 30's and have been married for 6 years.
> 
> Ever since we started having kids (2) we have struggled in our sex life. While she was pregnant she didn't want to have sex and struggled significantly ever since.
> 
> ...


your situation is extremely common. it's almost a cliché.

you're going to get a lot of reasons why it's not happening. e.g., the thing about her parents.

the bottom line is that none of this stuff prevented it previously.

if you keep pushing it, you will start to get a lot of claims about what you're doing wrong.

it will take a while to cycle through those. in the end, you will probably find that no matter how you alter your behavior, it has no effect on her level of interest.

the bottom line is that if she was interested, it would happen, just like it did previously.

by all means take a hard look at yourself and see whether you are doing something majorly wrong. it's possible.

but it's also possible that she has just lost interest in you. that happens pretty frequently in exactly the situation you've described.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Kickit40 said:


> She has said she feels guilty about being LD but I haven't a lot of movement to correct. I suggested talking to her doctor and her comment was you know how embarrassing that is.


Ask her why, if she feels guilty about it, she isn't willing to do anything about it.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Now you know why her dad cheated. Does she want her kids to be as screwed up as she is?


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

MJJEAN said:


> *If she feels guilty, it's clearly not that much guilt. Otherwise, she'd be doing everything in her power to find and solve the problem.*


QFT


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

MJJEAN said:


> If she feels guilty, it's clearly not that much guilt. Otherwise, she'd be doing everything in her power to find and solve the problem.


I actually don't agree with this.

I think it's possible for her to feel guilty about not wanting her husband, but simultaneously feel such disgust about actually being sexual with him that the thought of solving the problem just can't be processed.

this is why avoidance becomes the default, because each other alternative is just unacceptable.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

MJJEAN said:


> Thing is, before you say it you have to mean it. You have to mean that you will divorce if she isn't willing to address the problem and seriously work on improvement.


Although it's absolutely true that you can't threaten divorce without being willing to go through with it.

Most people in this situation aren't ready to follow through yet.

I think that there's a middle ground that's not nearly as effective but can work without putting everything on the line. Something like:

"I'm believe that our lack of sex is causing me to emotionally withdraw from you and makes me worry about the long term health of our marriage" 

or 

"I have no intention of spending the rest of my life in a sexless marriage"


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Buddy400 said:


> Although it's absolutely true that you can't threaten divorce without being willing to go through with it.
> 
> Most people in this situation aren't ready to follow through yet.
> 
> ...


I'm obviously extremely skeptical about all of this stuff.

I think discussion is totally pointless. 

At root, it all assumes that desire is rational and can be turned back on by making a decision to do it.

best bet (IMO) is to make sure you are as attractive as possible and then it's really out of your control.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

Anon1111 said:


> I actually don't agree with this.
> 
> I think it's possible for her to feel guilty about not wanting her husband, but simultaneously feel such disgust about actually being sexual with him that the thought of solving the problem just can't be processed.
> 
> this is why avoidance becomes the default, because each other alternative is just unacceptable.


I didn't say she didn't feel guilty. What I said was she doesn't feel _that_ guilty. If she felt _that_guilty, she wouldn't be able to avoid. Avoidance says "As long as I'm not actively thinking about it, I'm good!" If she's able to simply not think about it, the guilt isn't that powerful.



Buddy400 said:


> Although it's absolutely true that you can't threaten divorce without being willing to go through with it.
> 
> Most people in this situation aren't ready to follow through yet.
> 
> ...


The general idea is sound, but the phrasing leaves a lot of wiggle room. The phrasing above is so vague and open to interpretation that someone avoiding really dealing with the issue can let it slide by as a minor thing that may, in some vague future, lead to distance or separation. If I were LD and my spouse used that phrasing, I'd feel quite comfortable putting my head back in the nice warm sand. 

How about 

"The lack of sex in our marriage is causing me to detach and if we can't reconnect and have a healthy sex life, I think our marriage will continue to deteriorate and end in divorce."

and 

"I have no intention of spending my life in a sexless marriage. If our marriage is not going to include a healthy and happy sex life, we will have to consider separating."


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Anon1111 said:


> I'm obviously extremely skeptical about all of this stuff.
> 
> I think discussion is totally pointless.
> 
> ...


Discussion isn't pointless if it uncovers a physical cause. But yeah, if it's just an attraction issue then I agree.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

MJJEAN said:


> I didn't say she didn't feel guilty. What I said was she doesn't feel _that_ guilty. If she felt _that_guilty, she wouldn't be able to avoid. Avoidance says "As long as I'm not actively thinking about it, I'm good!" If she's able to simply not think about it, the guilt isn't that powerful.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


better, but why is it that she can't avoid this too?

the only thing that can't be avoided is what you are willing to do yourself.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Fozzy said:


> Discussion isn't pointless if it uncovers a physical cause. But yeah, if it's just an attraction issue then I agree.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


not surprisingly, I'm skeptical here too.

"physical cause" does not always equal "physical cause"

e.g.,

if the same "physical cause" existed when there was sexual activity, why is it a "physical cause" now?

if the "physical cause" only manifests to prevent sex, but nothing else, is it really a "physical cause"?

obviously, if it is presumed there must be a "physical cause," but there is no actual proof (e.g., the ubiquitous "disregulated hormones"), then you can assume it is fake.

unfortunately, there is a lot of crying wolf regarding physical causes in these situations.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

Buddy400 said:


> Ask her why, if she feels guilty about it, she isn't willing to do anything about it.


Because it's like a politician's guilt: it's to assuage their feelings and put on a show for you. It isn't about solutions, it's about spin.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

Anon1111 said:


> better, but why is it that she can't avoid this too?
> 
> the only thing that can't be avoided is what you are willing to do yourself.


Unambiguous phrasing serves two purposes. 1) the LD/NoD spouse is informed there is a serious problem in the marriage that may very well result in divorce. 2) the LD/NoD spouse cannot claim later that they had no idea it was so serious and use that excuse to get an extension they will use to not change.

If a spouse is clearly warned there is a problem that will likely end the marriage and then chooses to avoid...c'est la vie.




Sawney Beane said:


> Because it's like a politician's guilt: it's to assuage their feelings and put on a show for you. It isn't about solutions, it's about spin.


Yup.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

When I think of marriage, it should be as close to an equal partnership as possible. A sexless marriage, where you're working OP, and doing chores, and taking care of the kids, and she doesn't need to fulfill any of your needs, doesn't sound like it'll be happy for long. Before you bring any more kids into this, I'd have a talk with her about how you're simply not happy. If she starts crying, well...whatever. You have to voice your feelings, too. Could things change? Yea, but better she knows how this is making you unhappy. I wouldn't say it in a blaming way...but just simply ''I'm really unhappy ...I love you and want sex with you, but this serious lack of sex is making me unhappy.'' It doesn't say she is making you unhappy, but rather the situation is. Hope things get better for you.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Sawney Beane said:


> Because it's like a politician's guilt: it's to assuage their feelings and put on a show for you. It isn't about solutions, it's about spin.


this is a super tempting POV, but do you really think it is calculated in most cases?

I really have come to think that most women in these situations have massive conflict within their own heads about what they want.

they intellectually "want to want" their husbands, but they physically just don't.

so when they speak to their husbands on this issue, they actually believe what they are saying, because they are speaking through the intellectual portion of their brain.

but when the husband approaches for sex, the physical part of the brain shuts them down. 

Then the woman panics and has to offer an "intellectual" excuse that resolves the conflict. but this is as much about her resolving her own interior conflict as it is about her resolving her conflict with her husband.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Anon1111 said:


> this is a super tempting POV, but do you really think it is calculated in most cases?


Yes. Not at the outset. But not long after the decline is sex becomes noticeable.

That is, the woman did not marry the man intending to not have much sex. She knew she did not find him all that hot. But she liked all the companion, co-parent, stability aspects of him and she told herself she could be there for him. After all, how difficult is it to lie there for a few minutes and let him do his thing a couple of times a week? Most "beta" guys haven't had that much sex and are mostly looking for consent, not acrobatics.

While they are dating, the goal of getting him to say "I do" provides sufficient motivation to overcome whatever hesitancy she felt about consenting.

But once they are married and have kids, there is no longer the goal of "reeling him in" to provide motivation. Now all that remains is the grim monotony of having undesired and unsatisfying (for her) sex over and over again. And it gets more and more difficult psychologically and emotionally to continue consenting. So she consents less and less frequently.

But always based on excuses. Always excuses that appear to be "one off" events that will eventually disappear. But even when they do, another excuse "magically" appears to take its place. So there is almost always an excuse, even as each excuse is slightly different.

The wife never admits to the truth. Because she fears that admitting the truth might cause her husband to file for divorce. She doesn't want him to file for divorce (or at least not yet), so she lies. She knows she doesn't find her husband hot. She knows she doesn't find the sex satisfying. But she doesn't admit that to her H. Maybe she lies to him. Maybe she lies to herself and actually believes that the excuses are real and are the real reason she refuses to consent. Maybe she WANTS to find her husband hot. But she knows she doesn't actually feel that way. And she knows she is hiding that fact from her husband.

Yes, the truth always comes out eventually. Yes, given time, the pattern of excuses becomes clearly the result of a lack of desire and satisfaction. But time is her ally. Time binds the husband more firmly to his children. Time increases the cost of divorce to him if he is the higher earner. Time increases the discomfort and dislocation of divorcing and starting over. Time reduces the number of young healthy years he will have to enjoy with someone else. So the wife plays for time, hoping that when the truth finally becomes clear the husband won't be willing to pay the cost for his freedom.

Do I think it is that calculating in all or most cases? Maybe not. Do I think this mechanism is at work in many many cases. Heck yeah.


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## Kickit40 (Jul 21, 2016)

***Update***

Last night we ended up in an argument that ended up about our sex life. 

I started off by saying I do not intend to live in a sexless marriage and I need my needs met or it won't last. Also, I stayed I don't intend to live in a sexless marriage going forward and that if we don't have a plan then she isn't sensitive to my needs and doesn't care about me. 

She said that she tried a few weeks ago for me and was planning to try again after her period is done (which is now). She doesn't understand why her desire is nonexistent and she's exhausted from playing mommy and the last thing she wants to do is have sex. 

After more discussion, we determined that she will go get blood work done to see if there are any hormonal issues or etc. We also decided based upon our schedules and how busy the weeks can be -- we will focus on having sex on the weekends and target those days for intimacy. 

We will see how it goes from here but I was pleased to get consent on going to the doctor and that we will try on the weekends.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Stop being played. If the best she can offer during an argument is "I tried a few weeks ago and I intended to try again next week" then you have no hope. A woman who truly intended to keep you satisfied would have had sex with you right then and there. Any time a person says "I INTENDED to offer next week" they are lying. Either to you or to themselves. Let me translate that phrase for you. I intended to offer later really means: "I am telling you I was going to offer if you hadn't opened your big fat mouth to complain in the hope that you will feel bad about complaining. I am hoping you will be fooled into thinking that this was a true statement. I am hoping you will be fooled into thinking that you lost out on a real opportunity for sex because you opened your big fat mouth, and that you will refrain from complaining for weeks or months out of fear that I might be planning to try in the next few days or weeks and you don't want to spoil it".

Like I said, you are being played. "I intended to try next week but now you ruined it" is the oldest trick in the book. She didn't intend to try. And you did not ruin anything.

If you tell your spouse that the lack of sex is destroying your love for them, and you guys need to have more sex or the marriage will soon end in divorce, and they say "OK, we can have sex once my period is over", they are telling you that the BEST you can hope for is to have sex when the stars are aligned and it is convenient for them. If that is their best offer, say "thanks but no thanks" and go find someone who wants to have sex with you even when the stars are slightly out of alignment.

Or realize that you are choosing to stay despite the clear signals that your sex life will never be satisfactory. In which case the fault is yours, not hers.


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## straightshooter (Dec 27, 2015)

Kickit

*We will see how it goes from here but I was pleased to get consent on going to the doctor and that we will try on the weekends.*

The above is a positive sign in that it appears she accepts that there is a problem and that she is at least a part of the problem.

There has to be a reason why a healthy woman in her 30's has no interest in sex, just as you would be told if you had no interest. We all know that women still do the majority of child rearing, and maybe you should help her more, but that is NOT a reason at her age to have no interest in sex with you.

i would avoid making threatening comments about what you will or will not do. I think she knows that even if she does not want to admit it to herself. 

if her medical tests come back normal, a qualified sex therapist should be your next stop.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

Anon1111 said:


> this is a super tempting POV, but do you really think it is calculated in most cases?


Yes. It's calculated in the same way as when a child keeps asking to do something you answer "Maybe later".

You haven't any intention of doing it later (or indeed ever), you are just using distraction. There's no intent at malice, but it's absolutely planned and calculated to allow you to not participate in something you don't have the time/energy/inclination to do.


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## Sbrown (Jul 29, 2012)

I believe the biggest game changer for my wife and I was the fact that I quit calling it a sex less marriage and called it what it was, a loveless one.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## FrazzledSadHusband (Jul 3, 2014)

Here is a link you can ask your wife to read. She needs to detach the feelings of her dad from you. Unbearable Lessons - The Forgiven Wife

There are also a lot of articles written by author regarding how important sex is in marriage.

Take a hard look at yourself, make sure you are pulling your weight with the kids, get a sitter once in awhile & take your wife on a date. Make sure your in good shape.

Get the book 5 Love Languages and BOTH of you read it & take the test at back. Discuss the results with each other. By knowing the order of her needs and meeting them, you are able to have firm ground to stand on when discussing your needs from the marriage.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

MJJEAN said:


> I didn't say she didn't feel guilty. What I said was she doesn't feel _that_ guilty. If she felt _that_guilty, she wouldn't be able to avoid. Avoidance says "As long as I'm not actively thinking about it, I'm good!" If she's able to simply not think about it, the guilt isn't that powerful.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I like your phrasing better.

And, like I said, I'm not claiming that this *will* work; just that it *might.* 

I've seen it happen.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Kickit40 said:


> ***Update***
> 
> Last night we ended up in an argument that ended up about our sex life.
> 
> ...


That's progress. Not much, but some.

At least the problem has been acknowledged.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

Kickit40 said:


> ***Update***
> 
> Last night we ended up in an argument that ended up about our sex life.
> 
> ...


If she's tired, trying for sex on days that there is less to be done is a better bet.

If she's too much in mommy mode, there are things both of you can do. You can treat her like a sexy woman. Little touches, compliments, that kind of thing. She can try to be more aware of her femininity and sexuality by taking time to shave and pluck, do a mani and pedi, wear lacy or silky underthings (even is she's in yoga pants and a t-shirt) and generally subtly remind herself she is a mommy, but also a woman.

Hormones going out of whack after the birth of a child is fairly common. If the problem is hormonal, hopefully blood work would reveal a treatable cause.

Don't let her delay. She should be making an appointment Monday morning.



Buddy400 said:


> I like your phrasing better.
> 
> And, like I said, I'm not claiming that this *will* work; just that it *might.*
> 
> I've seen it happen.


Let's hope bringing it out in the open helps OP and his wife!


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## becareful2 (Jul 8, 2016)

Kickit40 said:


> I have brought up therapy again and she didn't want to go back --- said it didn't help. I wonder if it's bc she is forced to talk about her dad.
> 
> She has said she feels guilty about being LD but I haven't a lot of movement to correct. I suggested talking to her doctor and her comment was you know how embarrassing that is.


Remind her that doctors have heard and seen it all, that nothing surprises them anymore, and that hearing a patient open up about their low libido is normal.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Anon1111 said:


> I'm obviously extremely skeptical about all of this stuff.
> 
> I think discussion is totally pointless.
> 
> ...


I don't buy the belief that a woman's having sex with her husband is completely dependent on his sexual attractiveness.

Sexual response doesn't work the same way for women as it does for men. There's been research indicating that women lose interest in sex in long term stable relationships. Spontaneous desire in women usually declines after the "honeymoon" period (see prior point). Giving birth and breast feeding (up until recently, it would be foolhardy to risk having another child before the last was weaned) obviously affect hormones. There's the issue of new mothers identifying themselves as mothers instead of wives,. Much of women's sexual desire comes from the need to get or keep partners. Once a relationship is secure, much of this biological motivation goes away. Even in the best of situations, women tends to have responsive desire instead of the men's largely spontaneous desire. They may enjoy sex plenty but need to motivate themselves to get started (similar to the motivation many need to get off the couch and go to the gym even though you know you'll feel good when you do).

If good sexual relationships depended on mutual spontaneous desire, maybe 10% of marriages would work out and everyone else would have to change partners every two years.

Many, many men have been seriously misled about how to make their wife desire them (do whatever they want, never go out with your buddys, let her make all the decisions, etc) and they need to be straightened out on this. And sure, men need to make themselves as attractive as possible but this applies regardless of the desire to have one's wife want sex. The same is true for most of the the NMMNG and "man-up" advice found on TAM. In fact, to the degree that this stuff works in inspiring one's wife to have sex, it's probably mostly due to the activation of the wife's "get or keep" imperative. 

Sure, maybe one's wife just finds them repulsive. Sure, she'd probably be all over the next guy (after all, she's got to "get" him). But there are other things that might improve things.
There's a chance that your wife really does love you and cares about your happiness but isn't aware how unhappy you are. Maybe she knows that you would like more sex but, since you haven't taken any actions, figures that it can't be al that big of a problem. Maybe it IS hormones, just like it could be with men with LD). Maybe she's just gotten complacent and needs some motivation to "get herself off the couch". Often, the more sex you have the more sex you want. Maybe she's aware of your needs, cares about them, is breastfeeding, has no libido and so she give you a blowjob or two a week until she her libido reappears.

And, yes, discussion rarely works. If it works at all it would be by clearly and unambiguously stating your needs and pointing out that, unless a significant effort is make to meet them, she shouldn't be counting on you to stick around forever.


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## Kickit40 (Jul 21, 2016)

FrazzledSadHusband said:


> Here is a link you can ask your wife to read. She needs to detach the feelings of her dad from you. Unbearable Lessons - The Forgiven Wife
> 
> There are also a lot of articles written by author regarding how important sex is in marriage.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the advice. 

We normally go on date nights once a week amd go on vacations together regularly. 

Also, we have done the Love Language test and physical touch is the lowest for her. 

I have began to MAP but get confused if I should continue to MAP or just say forget it and pull away. 

This is the only major issue in our relationship and everything is fine or small potatoes to lack of sex in our marriage.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

How old are your children?


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## Kickit40 (Jul 21, 2016)

2 and 5


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Kickit40 said:


> ***Update***
> 
> Last night we ended up in an argument that ended up about our sex life.
> 
> ...


crisis averted!

sorry to be cynical but this is really classic. let me make a prediction-- the doctor's appointment will get delayed and delayed. it will slip her mind or she will be too busy.

you will fight about that for a while. those fights will then become the excuse for why it's not happening. 

then maybe after a few months, just to get you off her back, she will actually schedule the appointment.

once the appointment is on the calendar you will just be sitting and waiting because at that point it will be PRESUMED that she actually has a hormone issue. if you push for sex, you will be a jerk who is ignoring her hormone issue.

when she finally has the appointment, she may or may not actually have a hormone issue. it will be in a gray area as these things usually are. 

but anything will be seized upon as a confirmation as to why you should leave her alone. even if it's inconclusive, it will become a jumping off point for further medical evaluation because at that point it will have solidified in her mind that there must be an issue.

(side note: her hormones are actually affected by whether or not she is attracted to you, so this is some ways is a self fulfilling prophecy)


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Holdingontoit said:


> Stop being played. If the best she can offer during an argument is "I tried a few weeks ago and I intended to try again next week" then you have no hope. A woman who truly intended to keep you satisfied would have had sex with you right then and there.


I'm not sure about the "being played" part, but the rest of this is pretty tough to argue with.

in her mind, "trying" once every few weeks is a huge effort which she can barely manage.

let that sink in. once every few weeks she can work up the mental energy to allow herself to be POTENTIALLY open to sex. 

the rest of the time, she is 100% closed off to the possibility.

even if this brief, potential window passes without consummation, in her mind, she has STILL made an effort, simply by not being 100% opposed for a short time.

that is a pretty deep deficit of desire to overcome.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I share Anon's not so rosy view, alas...


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

I doubt very much it's hormonal. She has young children, so now she is a mother. The purpose of her sexual side has been fulfilled (in her deepest way of thinking).

You started a very important conversation. You need to guide her into understanding that being sexual is important to you, and a condition for her to remain married. And she can do all the micromothering in the world but allowing her marriage to fall apart is devastating to her children.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

best case scenario is your wife recognizes that this is a marriage ending issue and does whatever she can to work out a plan that is tolerable for both of you.

this will be actual work for her so she may very well start out with the best of intentions and then fail to follow through because it will not feel natural to her.

for example, scheduling sex is often recommended in these situations because it allows the low libido woman to compartmentalize the sex life into tolerable episodes and gives the higher libido man assurance that he will get minimal attention.

the problem becomes that the wife fails to motivate herself for these scheduled sessions. after a while it becomes clear she is not into it and the husband is basically making her do it. then it becomes a source of resentment for both.

bottom line is that if she does not take an active role in trying to psych herself up for sex it won't work. the entire concept of this is probably foreign to her since (like most women) she has never really had to work for sex. so there are likely major built in impediments to success.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Hicks said:


> You need to guide her into understanding that being sexual is important to you, and a condition for her to remain married. And she can do all the micromothering in the world but allowing her marriage to fall apart is devastating to her children.


OP needs to decide whether the first sentence is true. Not true for all higher desire partners.

If it is true, need to hammer home the reality of the second sentence. Very tough to deliver this message with the proper tone. Expect to trigger nuclear confrontation. But is factually true that Mom is not doing what is best for the kids if she refuses to have sex with Dad. She is doing what is best for herself at the kids' expense. Maybe Dad is doing the same by insisting on sex "or else". But if Mom says "no thanks" then she is morally just as culpable as Dad if the couple divorces and the kids are collateral damage.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Holdingontoit said:


> OP needs to decide whether the first sentence is true. Not true for all higher desire partners.
> 
> If it is true, need to hammer home the reality of the second sentence. Very tough to deliver this message with the proper tone. Expect to trigger nuclear confrontation. But is factually true that Mom is not doing what is best for the kids if she refuses to have sex with Dad. She is doing what is best for herself at the kids' expense. Maybe Dad is doing the same by insisting on sex "or else". But if Mom says "no thanks" then she is morally just as culpable as Dad if the couple divorces and the kids are collateral damage.


the problem is that if you're a good guy and try to work this out with her, the message she will receive from your actions is that it's not a dealbreaker.


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## Kickit40 (Jul 21, 2016)

Hicks said:


> I doubt very much it's hormonal. She has young children, so now she is a mother. The purpose of her sexual side has been fulfilled (in her deepest way of thinking).
> 
> You started a very important conversation. You need to guide her into understanding that being sexual is important to you, and a condition for her to remain married. And she can do all the micromothering in the world but allowing her marriage to fall apart is devastating to her children.


Good points....she mentions being exhausted from the kiddos and being a mom. Trusted me when I say I help out a lot. 

The best gift parents can give their children is a healthy marriage.


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## Kickit40 (Jul 21, 2016)

Anon1111 said:


> best case scenario is your wife recognizes that this is a marriage ending issue and does whatever she can to work out a plan that is tolerable for both of you.
> 
> this will be actual work for her so she may very well start out with the best of intentions and then fail to follow through because it will not feel natural to her.
> 
> ...


I agree with the comments and what it to be "natural" not forced. 

I feel there is some psychological that is blocking her sexual desire. She has also mentioned in the past she wasn't very sexual. 

I have been pulling away of late and she has noticed, says "what's wrong" and "are you mad"? I don't say anything in return and feel it might be a game. She has been more physical with kissing, hugging, and holding hands. I respond favorably and don't reject her because that would send a negative message of she is trying to work in out sex. All of this and still no sex. 

I'm not sure if the blood work will show anything, however the ball is in her court and I will keep distancing myself.


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## Kickit40 (Jul 21, 2016)

Anon1111 said:


> Holdingontoit said:
> 
> 
> > OP needs to decide whether the first sentence is true. Not true for all higher desire partners.
> ...


I've put the ball in her court and feel I cannot do anything else. I have said everything I've had to say over the past six months and done everything I can do. 

If she doesn't act then she will have to live with the consequences of a sexless marriage.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Kickit40 said:


> I agree with the comments and what it to be "natural" not forced.
> 
> I feel there is some psychological that is blocking her sexual desire. She has also mentioned in the past she wasn't very sexual.
> 
> ...




When she asks you need to say yes I'm mad. I didn't sign up for a sexless marriage. Don't sugar coat it. Take every opportunity to reinforce that you're considering whether you want to stay in that situation or not. 

Your *****footing around is not helping.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Kickit40 said:


> I've put the ball in her court and feel I cannot do anything else. I have said everything I've had to say over the past six months and done everything I can do.
> 
> If she doesn't act then she will have to live with the consequences of a sexless marriage.


OK, then at this point you need to be working on you.

make sure you are in top physical shape. work on any mental issues (therapy if necessary, meditation). work on your relationship with your kids. do stuff that is fun for you that does not depend on her.

basically demonstrate to yourself that you have a rich and fulfilling life regardless of what she does. that you are a dynamic and desirable person that any number of women would be glad to be with.

set a timeline during which you will give her an opportunity to come around (6 months to 1 year). 

if she doesn't within that timeline, then she won't. then you need to decide if you are OK being celibate (unrealistic unless you are actually low drive), or divorce.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Kickit40 said:


> If she doesn't act then she will have to live with the consequences of a sexless marriage.


I am confused by this statement. How is this a threat to her? She most likely would LOVE a sexless marriage. YOU are the one who would have to live with the pain, depression, frustration and resentment of a sexless marriage. To her, it will be one less item on her to do list and a welcome relief.

If you are to have any hope of resolving this the way you would prefer, then you need to restate that as "if she doesn't act, then she will have to live with the consequences of us getting divorced, because I refuse to live in a sexless marriage".

As long as the possibility exists of you remaining in a sexless marriage, she has no incentive to change her behavior, you have no leverage, and you should expect to remain sexless. You are fooling yourself if you think otherwise.


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## Kickit40 (Jul 21, 2016)

Holdingontoit said:


> Kickit40 said:
> 
> 
> > If she doesn't act then she will have to live with the consequences of a sexless marriage.
> ...



I told her I don't want a sexless marriage and I won't stay in a sexless marriage. I said we are just really good friends who are roommates. 

Those are the consequences ---- me leaving.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

Anon1111 said:


> basically demonstrate to yourself that you have a rich and fulfilling life regardless of what she does. _that you are a dynamic and desirable person that any number of women would be glad to be with.
> _
> set a timeline during which you will *give her an opportunity to come around *(6 months to 1 year).
> .


If she is so apathetic towards a relationship with him, and can't see the interest/rationale to desire him, why would she grasp he is dynamic and desirable? If those parts of the relationship are as irrelevant to her as they would appear to be, would she notice the changes, and would she actually see them as improvements?

Therefore, is there a point in giving her an opportunity to come around? Would she see any rationale for "coming round"?

Would you be asking her to place a high value on something she doesn't conceive to actually have a value?


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## Kickit40 (Jul 21, 2016)

OK, then at this point you need to be working on you.

make sure you are in top physical shape. work on any mental issues (therapy if necessary, meditation). work on your relationship with your kids. do stuff that is fun for you that does not depend on her.

basically demonstrate to yourself that you have a rich and fulfilling life regardless of what she does. that you are a dynamic and desirable person that any number of women would be glad to be with.

set a timeline during which you will give her an opportunity to come around (6 months to 1 year). 

if she doesn't within that timeline, then she won't. then you need to decide if you are OK being celibate (unrealistic unless you are actually low drive), or divorce.[/QUOTE]

I'm spending even more time with my kids -- playing with them, spending time, and developing more of a relationship. 

Also, I'm focusing on me. Hanging out with my friends more, doing guy stuff, being out of the house more.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Kickit40 said:


> I've put the ball in her court and feel I cannot do anything else. I have said everything I've had to say over the past six months and done everything I can do.
> 
> If she doesn't act then she will have to live with the consequences of a sexless marriage.


Six months!

What on earth are you waiting for?

Backbone?

The reasons are superfluous, her actions aren't!

If after six months your wife won't have sex with you or will barely have sex with you, it should be extraordinarily clear she really doesn't want to have sex with you.

Since you've already told her where this is going, you ought to now act decisively and get sex elsewhere.

Absent an immediate and sustained change on her behalf, feel free to tell her absent her behaving like a wife, you are under no reciprocal obligation to behave like her husband. So from now on you will be getting sex elsewhere following immediate separation leading to divorce.

Or alternatively you can tell her you will not be seeking a divorce (but she's welcome to seek one herself, since she doesn't deserve to be married), yet while ever she continues to not behave like a wife. You will have sex with whomever else will have sex with you as often as you like.

Whatever happens you will get sex with someone who wants to have sex with you. If it's your wife well and good. If it isn't your wife there is no reason to pretend she actually wants to be your wife, so you may as well get on with your life and make the best of it.


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## FrazzledSadHusband (Jul 3, 2014)

Kickit40 said:


> Thanks for the advice.
> 
> We normally go on date nights once a week amd go on vacations together regularly.
> 
> ...


Make sure you sincerely speak her top 3 to her. After a month of that, simply say "Hey Babe, I've been working hard to meet your needs in our marriage, when are you going to meet mine?"

May start another fight, but it will get the discussion going.


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## Kickit40 (Jul 21, 2016)

FrazzledSadHusband said:


> Kickit40 said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks for the advice.
> ...



I have been doing that for the past six months, I feel I'm past this point and need to be direct.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Kickit40 said:


> I have been doing that for the past six months, I feel I'm past this point and need to be direct.


Feeling you ought to be direct and actually being direct are two different things.

Your wife doesn't want to have sex with you, so she does exactly that and doesn't have sex with you.

You on the other hand have suggested certain outcomes, yet when faced with the reality that your words have changed nothing, you are still thinking about it instead of actually doing something about it.

One thing for sure as evidenced by her actions, your wife has proven to be far more decisive than you.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Sawney Beane said:


> If she is so apathetic towards a relationship with him, and can't see the interest/rationale to desire him, why would she grasp he is dynamic and desirable? If those parts of the relationship are as irrelevant to her as they would appear to be, would she notice the changes, and would she actually see them as improvements?
> 
> Therefore, is there a point in giving her an opportunity to come around? Would she see any rationale for "coming round"?
> 
> Would you be asking her to place a high value on something she doesn't conceive to actually have a value?


I agree there is little chance she will come around.

the "working on yourself" bit and "timeline" is actually more about proving to yourself that it is not you, it's her.

when you know for a fact that you are desirable and she is still not into you, then you can feel confident that leaving is the only way to resolve the situation.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Kickit: I agree with Personal. Do not be like me and spend years vainly trying to resolve this. If she won't act like your wife, stop acting like her husband.

Look, I got the best conceivable outcome from a sexless marriage. We are pleasant to each other. So far the kids have turned out great. We might even get our mortgage paid off in 10 years or so and actually be able to afford for me to retire. And you know what? I am miserable. Odds are very high you will be too if you stay in this sexless marriage.

Your life. Your choice. You have been warned.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

A poster wrote long ago something to the effect of "the HDs run round and round the maze trying to find the sex, but there is no sex in the maze"

If you are with a true LD, nothing will work. 

Accept the situation that you are in and be content to live a near sexless life, or leave. (or cheat, then leave when you get caught).

Give up hope. It won't get better. You can drive yourself insane getting your hopes up every time there is a tiny improvement, only to have those hopes dashed when it goes back to normal.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

uhtred said:


> A poster wrote long ago something to the effect of "the HDs run round and round the maze trying to find the sex, but there is no sex in the maze"
> .


this is a great metaphor

all of the running around through the maze can give you the strength to leap out of the maze though


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## DrSher (Jul 17, 2016)

Sexless marriage is a serious condition that can only lead to a man's ultimate. After a few years of that, a man will wake up without morning erection, feels fat and cannot even look at girls without getting slapped. 


However, there IS an effective cure for this condition that one should always use first, IMHO. 


It's a 7 letter medicine starting with D and ending with E. 


Don't stay in a sexless marriage unless you choose to.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Kickit40 said:


> I have been pulling away of late and she has noticed, says "what's wrong" and "are you mad"? I don't say anything in return and feel it might be a game.


When she asks what's wrong, you don't say what is wrong. So, how the heck is she supposed to know what to do about it?

Just say that, due to the lack of physical intimacy, you're having trouble feeling emotionally connected.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Buddy400 said:


> When she asks what's wrong, you don't say what is wrong. So, how the heck is she supposed to know what to do about it?
> 
> Just say that, due to the lack of physical intimacy, you're having trouble feeling emotionally connected.


She almost certainly knows, but you might as well make it explicit so there's no possibility of her "not understanding".


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

All,
I'm gonna provide bit of context - and then explain why I agree with Personal. 

For the first 20 years M2 was very accommodating of my HD. And for the following 7 - I became more accommodating of her LD. Overall I would rate M2 a solid "A" as a sexual partner and a solid "A" as an overall wife. 

That said - for reasons that are unimportant - M2 chose to suddenly and without ANY warning - do a facedown with me over sex - around 4-5 years ago. 

So we had a super low key (well I was super low key - M2 got a bit animated on the topic) discussion about her. 

I will call this the 'all about you' conversation. Told her:

- I don't want you to do anything you don't want to do
- It isn't fair for you to have to deal with a tense, irritable H - I'm not wired for celibacy - why I'm not a priest 
- I'm not gonna leave you over this - but you might worry about that
- Not gonna have an affair - maybe fall in love with someone else

I'm just gonna go get full body massages with happy endings a couple times a week. No risk to the marriage. 

No question in my mind - that conversation turned M2 on more than any other we've ever had in our marriage. I got saturation sex for weeks. 

Disclaimer: I wasn't bluffing. At all. I would have accepted it if M2 left me over refusing to be celibate. Without any debate at all. 

And my goal in having the conversation - wasn't to produce a reaction. It was simply a work around to a situation she created.

While she yelled, screamed and threatened I stayed dead calm and stuck with this: I don't get why you seem so upset, I'm doing this for you. 

Which was entirely true. 





Personal said:


> Six months!
> 
> What on earth are you waiting for?
> 
> ...


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## Married&Confused (Jan 19, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> All,
> I got saturation sex for weeks.


only for weeks? did it die off again?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

It reverted back to our standard 2/week. 




Married&Confused said:


> only for weeks? did it die off again?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Proof positive that M2's self preservation neurons are healthy. 

With many of the hardened LD's discussed here, this is not always the case. Partially thanks to US divorce laws and divorce-minded culture overall, the importance of preserving the marriage via compromise becomes moot in many cases...

Also keep in mind that it would be rather unusual for sex to just stop overnight. Typically it dwindles slowly and predictably, till one day the non LD realizes they're played...


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

GuyInColorado said:


> It will only get worse. You need to get a plan. How old are the kids? I waited until my youngest was 4 years old to divorce.
> 
> 
> 
> You need to be clear with her that marriage involves sex and without it, we are only roommates. You'll be forced to find someone else that wants to have sex with you.




OP, listen to this guy and the MANY others like us. And listen to the advice from the women here. I won't get better. It never gets better. There is no fix. Not what you want to hear. You think you might be the one that is different but you are not. 

Tell her you are going to have sex with someone. Let her decide if she is going to be that someone. 

Make sure she works so that will reduce or eliminate any alimony.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

I think that most of the advice you have gotten is partial advice.

"it wont get better, *....unless your wife decides to change the way she treats and views you...."*.

I was in a sex starved marriage. Ultimately, I decided I couldn't take it anymore. I worked on changing myself and Getting a Life. I lost weight, dressed better, became more fit, had interesting hobbies and showed her I was capable of changing myself.

Through the help of a number of great books (Chapman's 5 Lanaguages of Love; MW Davis the Sex Starved Marriage, Glover's No More Mr. Nice Guy, Sue Johnson's Hold Me Tight, and others) I was able to change the way I treated my wife.

I asked her to go to marriage counseling with a sex therapist and she resisted but went. The Sex Therapist really helped her understand the seriousness of the situation. No Sex would lead ultimately to divorce. The Sex Therapist asked if she understood that. After a lot of avoidance, she admitted she did understand that. Then the Sex Therapist "told" my wife that she had complete control of the situation. If she wanted to be divorced she didn't need to change a thing and it would happen sooner or later, but my wife had to know that the divorce would be her responsibility and that I would likely remarry and be loved and cherished by another woman. 

Ultimately, my wife choose to forgive me and drop the hate in her heart toward me. She learned to have more sex than she wanted, but not so much she couldn't handle it.

An LD person will continue to be LD. You just might find a compromise as to frequency you both can live with that stretches the both of you.

Good luck.


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## WonkyNinja (Feb 28, 2013)

Holdingontoit said:


> Look, *I got the best conceivable outcome from a sexless marriage*. We are pleasant to each other. So far the kids have turned out great. We might even get our mortgage paid off in 10 years or so and actually be able to afford for me to retire. *And you know what? I am miserable.* Odds are very high you will be too if you stay in this sexless marriage.
> 
> Your life. Your choice. You have been warned.


If being miserable is the best conceivable outcome then I'd hate to hear what your plans B & C would have entailed.

A solution involving being miserable for 10 years or so at work so you can retire and be miserable at home sucks. You've only got one life and you owe it to yourself to spend that as well as you can.

I miss my old house big time, but a happy marriage in a smaller rented house is magnitudes better than living miserable, bitter and resentful.


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## ChargingCharlie (Nov 14, 2012)

uhtred said:


> A poster wrote long ago something to the effect of "the HDs run round and round the maze trying to find the sex, but there is no sex in the maze"
> 
> If you are with a true LD, nothing will work.
> 
> ...


This is wisdom - LD's view sex as work, and you can't convince them otherwise, especially when their friends are the same way. My wife makes sure to take a shower when the kids go to bed, so no sex there. Morning sex? Nope - sleep is much more important. Needs to have a few drinks to have sex, but won't have those drinks because she's afraid the kids will wake up in the night and wants to be ready to attend to them. It's just a big vicious circle, and the sooner you realize that, the better off you are. 

My wife went out of town with friends for almost a week recently - the evening before she left, the kids went to a camp for a couple of hours. Sex? Nope - she had to clean up, eat dinner, then sit on the couch to watch her DVR'd shows. After kids go to bed? Nope - needs to make sure to get a good night's sleep. Before kids get up? Nope, that's nuts. After she's home several days later and the kids are in bed? Nope, she needs to take a shower - don't want to have sex after a shower, that would defeat the purpose of the shower. On and on you go around the circle like a hamster on the wheel.


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## JamesTKirk (Sep 8, 2015)

Kickit40 said:


> ***Update***
> 
> Last night we ended up in an argument that ended up about our sex life.
> 
> ...





> I've put the ball in her court and feel I cannot do anything else. I have said everything I've had to say over the past six months and done everything I can do.
> 
> If she doesn't act then she will have to live with the consequences of a sexless marriage.


Sorry I'm a little late to the game but about two years after my daughter was born my wife's desire took a major nose dive. It felt like we were friends and she only had sex with me when I pushed. At times I would feel almost rejected with comments like "are you trying to start something with me?" when it had been 3 weeks and I was obviously fondling her. I was like like "WTF? This use to get you going easily! It has been weeks. How are you not excited about being with me? You act like I'm your buddy that's trying to get with you or something."

It most clearly was a hormonal shift in my wife's case. There is other evidence to that in her case. Post childbirth pre-menopausal dive in sexual interest is not terribly unusual in women. That's exactly what Flibanserin is targeted toward (which is an option, but it's not without side effects.) But I'll tell you that it seems to really offend some women when you suggest this could be the cause. I don't understand why. So tread lightly.

I quoted your argument because this reminded me of a few I had with my wife. I accused her of not being attracted to me anymore which she denied. She gave me some BS about "I'm not a visual person, so I don't get turned on by men." I vented my frustrations with her lack of interest. In the end she did not say that she didn't want sex with me anymore, just that she rarely feels the desire or need. She just doesn't think about it.... ever. Fortunately I believe that once a month for about two days (right before the period) she does seem to get some desire which I do seize upon. At least I have that to work with. So I started tracking her (irregular) periods as best I could and targeting those days.

I approached it from a different perspective. Don't leave the ball in her court. She won't act upon it.
My wife said "I just don't think about sex." So I took it upon myself to frequently remind her of the fact that she is in a sexual relationship with a man.
First have a constructive, non argumentative, non-threatening conversation with her.
Tell her You want to restore or improve your sex life like you used to have (maybe not exactly like it was, but better.)
Tell her it makes you feel rejected that she no longer feels interested in you. Ask her to be more receptive to your advances.
Ask her if you'd rather be loose with it, or have scheduled days (or a day) each week for sex. Scheduled days can help because there's no wiggle room, but it also means you get no more than that. My wife said "no" schedule and I thought it was too convenient that she could get out of sex too easily. Either way, pretty much insist that you have sex once a week even if you have to go out of your way to make time for it.

Turn up the heat. Flirt with her a lot. Regularly sneak looks at her while dressing and tell her how much you enjoy it. Give her a lot of kisses and hugs, and cop TACTFUL feels on her. Occasionally touch her private parts in a way that isn't awkward and completely out of context.
Send her texts in the day time to tell her that you can't stop thinking about her.
Buy some wine. When the kids are asleep, open wine. It'll go a long way to get her going. Have her start drinking a glass while you put the kids to bed then join her in the bedroom to have a glass yourself.
After a while I'm at the point now where I send her text like kisses, winks, and a wine glass and she knows that we'll have a drink later on and have sex. She's ready for it and looking forward to it. Is she in the mood? Not always. But she tries to get in the mood. It seems like the sexual advances I make does do a bit to turn her on. When I text her about sex later on, she's usually in the mood thinking about it all day.

I guess my point is that instead of getting pissed off and telling her to fix her problem, go the other way and be more like a 15 year old horny guy that can't keep his hands off his cute girlfriend, always trying to get into her pants. If you're always hitting her with compliments, flirts, and sexual innuendos, she's going to understand how you feel about her sexually.

She'll make you think you're being weird with your change in behavior. But just accept it as the new you, the way it's going to be, and have no shame. You're not the one doing anything wrong.

Try not to get pissed off at her. It can be hard. But if she does reject you, ask her for a follow up. "Not tonight, I'm tired." Follow it up with "maybe tomorrow then? Or do you have a better suggestion?"

All of this really worked for me. We normally have sex at least twice a week now and sometimes she even initiates now.
I'll tell you, that lull we hit was kind of scary to me.

I hope it helps.


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## JamesTKirk (Sep 8, 2015)

To quote myself


> be more like a 15 year old horny guy that can't keep his hands off his cute girlfriend, always trying to get into her pants.


 I should clarify that some men find their wives are thoroughly irritated at the constant day-in day-out requests for sex. The wives get to the point where they know no amount of sex will satisfy him and make him stop. They'd just like a break. So when I say "act like a horny 15 year old" I should backtrack on that a bit and clarify.
Two to four times a day, give her a compliment on her physical features like how sexy her breasts look in that top or how those workout pants or skirt really makes her butt look sexy. Give her a kiss and grip the small of her back to pull her in, then brush your hand across her butt. Then go to work. You dropped the compliments, got the kiss, and you're off without any hang-ups or requests. It's all reminding her that you're not in the friend zone, that she's a sexy woman to you, but there's no pressure (not now.) Continually do that and it'll paint a picture to her that you're always admiring her sexually and she may eventually start to initiate on her terms. Keep requests for sex to no more than every 5-7 for now so she knows she has a break in between with no expectations. Over the course of a few months my wife started noticing a pattern and started initiating a bit rather than have to get in the mood on my terms.

Also, in my past post I had quite a few errors (missing words and whatnot.) Sorry about that.

I hope this helps.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

ChargingCharlie said:


> This is wisdom - LD's view sex as work, and you can't convince them otherwise, especially when their friends are the same way. My wife makes sure to take a shower when the kids go to bed, so no sex there. Morning sex? Nope - sleep is much more important. Needs to have a few drinks to have sex, but won't have those drinks because she's afraid the kids will wake up in the night and wants to be ready to attend to them. It's just a big vicious circle, and the sooner you realize that, the better off you are.
> 
> My wife went out of town with friends for almost a week recently - the evening before she left, the kids went to a camp for a couple of hours. Sex? Nope - she had to clean up, eat dinner, then sit on the couch to watch her DVR'd shows. After kids go to bed? Nope - needs to make sure to get a good night's sleep. Before kids get up? Nope, that's nuts. After she's home several days later and the kids are in bed? Nope, she needs to take a shower - don't want to have sex after a shower, that would defeat the purpose of the shower. On and on you go around the circle like a hamster on the wheel.


it's just like people who say they want to exercise or eat healthy but never do.

if you really don't want to do something, everything seems like an appropriate excuse not to do it.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

JamesTKirk said:


> Sorry I'm a little late to the game but about two years after my daughter was born my wife's desire took a major nose dive. It felt like we were friends and she only had sex with me when I pushed. At times I would feel almost rejected with comments like "are you trying to start something with me?" when it had been 3 weeks and I was obviously fondling her. I was like like "WTF? This use to get you going easily! It has been weeks. How are you not excited about being with me? You act like I'm your buddy that's trying to get with you or something."
> 
> It most clearly was a hormonal shift in my wife's case. There is other evidence to that in her case. Post childbirth pre-menopausal dive in sexual interest is not terribly unusual in women. That's exactly what Flibanserin is targeted toward (which is an option, but it's not without side effects.) But I'll tell you that it seems to really offend some women when you suggest this could be the cause. I don't understand why. So tread lightly.
> 
> ...


glad that this seems to have worked for you, but as I was reading this, all I could think was "What a PITA."

if you have to scheme this much and put in this much effort for 2x per week unenthusiastic sex, is it really worth it?

do you actually feel OK with this dynamic?


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## JamesTKirk (Sep 8, 2015)

Anon1111 said:


> glad that this seems to have worked for you, but as I was reading this, all I could think was "What a PITA."
> 
> if you have to scheme this much and put in this much effort for 2x per week unenthusiastic sex, is it really worth it?
> 
> do you actually feel OK with this dynamic?


It's really not much effort at all. 90% of it is just changing your attitude and stop being the victim and take control. Rather than whine about her never being in the mood because her hormone levels changed, I'm taking steps to help her get in the mood. Also a lot of it is just me being honest and vocal about my sexual attraction, interest in sex, and status of my libido with her rather than keeping it quiet. She isn't going to know I want her if I'm not telling her and I already know it's rare that she'll come looking for it.
It really hasn't been been that difficult or much effort.

The other thing is that the sex is not unenthusiastic. Quite the contrary. She's very enthusiastic about sex and the sex is pretty darn amazing most of the time once I get her turned on. But until I get her in the mood, she's unenthusiastic about wanting sex. Over the years we've developed a great sex life, she knows what I like vis versa. In the bedroom she does things for me pretty selfless.

All of it is a significant less PITA than the alternative which is leaving, destroying my kid's life, messing up our finances, finding a new place to live, and all of the other wonderful stuff that comes with divorce, not to mention we have a really good marriage, we really love each other, and we the first 17 years were pretty damn good.
I said my vowes and I owe it to her at the very least put some effort into improving things if I'm not happy.

The only problem as I said is that it's just not quite as frequent as I'd like it to be. I don't know about you but I'm pretty happy with twice a week which is usually what I get. I'm not someone that needs a morning BJ and a quickie every day. It's frustrating when it gets to be about 5 days, but it's usually in the 3-4 day frequency which is just about perfect.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Works with some women, not others . 
My wife loves little bits of attention, huggs, kisses on the neck etc. 

She doesn't notice if I go months without asking for sex. 

She is LD, she doesn't want sex. 




JamesTKirk said:


> To quote myself I should clarify that some men find their wives are thoroughly irritated at the constant day-in day-out requests for sex. The wives get to the point where they know no amount of sex will satisfy him and make him stop. They'd just like a break. So when I say "act like a horny 15 year old" I should backtrack on that a bit and clarify.
> Two to four times a day, give her a compliment on her physical features like how sexy her breasts look in that top or how those workout pants or skirt really makes her butt look sexy. Give her a kiss and grip the small of her back to pull her in, then brush your hand across her butt. Then go to work. You dropped the compliments, got the kiss, and you're off without any hang-ups or requests. It's all reminding her that you're not in the friend zone, that she's a sexy woman to you, but there's no pressure (not now.) Continually do that and it'll paint a picture to her that you're always admiring her sexually and she may eventually start to initiate on her terms. Keep requests for sex to no more than every 5-7 for now so she knows she has a break in between with no expectations. Over the course of a few months my wife started noticing a pattern and started initiating a bit rather than have to get in the mood on my terms.
> 
> Also, in my past post I had quite a few errors (missing words and whatnot.) Sorry about that.
> ...


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

JamesTKirk said:


> It's really not much effort at all. 90% of it is just changing your attitude and stop being the victim and take control. Rather than whine about her never being in the mood because her hormone levels changed, I'm taking steps to help her get in the mood. Also a lot of it is just me being honest and vocal about my sexual attraction, interest in sex, and status of my libido with her rather than keeping it quiet. She isn't going to know I want her if I'm not telling her and I already know it's rare that she'll come looking for it.
> It really hasn't been been that difficult or much effort.
> 
> The other thing is that the sex is not unenthusiastic. Quite the contrary. She's very enthusiastic about sex and the sex is pretty darn amazing most of the time once I get her turned on. But until I get her in the mood, she's unenthusiastic about wanting sex. Over the years we've developed a great sex life, she knows what I like vis versa. In the bedroom she does things for me pretty selfless.
> ...


OK, this is different from what I was imagining. I was thinking it was like you were wearing her down and she was begrudgingly conceding 2x a week to get you off her back.

is she rejecting you frequently? if so, how do you handle that?


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

JamesTKirk said:


> The other thing is that the sex is not unenthusiastic. Quite the contrary. She's very enthusiastic about sex and the sex is pretty darn amazing most of the time once I get her turned on. But until I get her in the mood, she's unenthusiastic about wanting sex. Over the years we've developed a great sex life, she knows what I like vis versa. In the bedroom she does things for me pretty selfless.


This is the thing that many people just can't conceive of.

Your wife likes and enjoys sex. She just doesn't spontaneously think about it. This is essentially "responsive desire". I'm convinced that it's a real thing. When this is the case, low sex marriages can be improved relatively easily.

Apparently many guys (and HD women) can't imagine this since it's not the way THEY work.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Buddy400 said:


> This is the thing that many people just can't conceive of.
> 
> Your wife likes and enjoys sex. She just doesn't spontaneously think about it. This is essentially "responsive desire". I'm convinced that it's a real thing. When this is the case, low sex marriages can be improved relatively easily.
> 
> Apparently many guys (and HD women) can't imagine this since it's not the way THEY work.


I am skeptical about it.

not because I don't believe it's possible, but because the way it's often presented is that all women have responsive desire.

I can believe that a few women have it. Similar to how I believe a few people are truly asexual.

in the majority of cases though, I think there is a much simpler explanation. 

put the "responsive desire" woman in a room with Julio Iglesias and let's see if she's still needs to be gently worked up to it.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Anon1111 said:


> I am skeptical about it.
> 
> not because I don't believe it's possible, but because the way it's often presented is that all women have responsive desire.
> 
> ...


Perhaps it should be defined as a real thing in women who are in an LTR.

I bet even Julio Iglesias's wife lost a lot of spontaneous desire after the first year or two.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Buddy400 said:


> Perhaps it should be defined as a real thing in women who are in an LTR.
> 
> I bet even Julio Iglesias's wife lost a lot of spontaneous desire after the first year or two.


yeah, now I do believe this is a more widespread phenomenon.

but if this is what we're talking about, calling it "responsive desire" is a euphemism, I think.

Interesting question if this sort of thing happens to straight up womanizers like Julio.

Does the dominant silverback who can mate with any female in the troop experience this? 

Is the phenomenon automatic, or is it premised on some kind of subconscious hope that the female can move up in the mating hierarchy?


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Anon1111 said:


> yeah, now I do believe this is a more widespread phenomenon.
> 
> but if this is what we're talking about, calling it "responsive desire" is a euphemism, I think.
> 
> ...


I'd imagine that if Julio's wife (if he has one) had reason to believe that he wouldn't leave her or cheat on her, she might well lose the spontaneous desire.

If she feels threatened by his ability to have sex with other women, it could keep the spontaneity going for a longer time (but, it wouldn't keep him faithful if he didn't want to be and she'd probably tire of it eventually anyway).

Then again, they probably have an "understanding". 

There's clearly something going on with many women wanting lots of sex during the honeymoon period and then tailing off afterwards. I can't just always be because the husband is no longer "hot".


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Buddy400 said:


> There's clearly something going on with many women wanting lots of sex during the honeymoon period and then tailing off afterwards. I can't just always be because the husband is no longer "hot".


assuming that there is no objective decline in the hotness of the guy (a big assumption in many cases, no doubt), it could be due to

1. lack of competition from other women. if true, then this would mean that women aren't particularly attracted to men in isolation, they are only attracted WITHIN the social sphere. removed from the social sphere, the man loses the source of his attractiveness. this is pretty interesting because it is more about outright competition, which sort of lines up with observed female behavior (dressing up to best other women, social bullying, etc)

2. perceived incest. I've heard about this one but it seems far fetched. greater familiarity = perceived member of one's family. does explain certain friendzoned situations, I guess

3. disposition toward genetic variety. this one seems most compelling to me.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Buddy400 said:


> Then again, they probably have an "understanding".
> .


pretty sure most Mrs. Iglesiases chose not to look to closely regarding their husbands' behavior while on tour


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## ChargingCharlie (Nov 14, 2012)

Anon1111 said:


> it's just like people who say they want to exercise or eat healthy but never do.
> 
> if you really don't want to do something, everything seems like an appropriate excuse not to do it.


Exactly - this is why I don't pester her for sex. If she wants it, she knows where I am. I've given up trying.


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## Sports Fan (Aug 21, 2014)

Would it surprise you to hear that your wife possibly enjoys sex just not with you?

For whatever the reason she is not into you. When a marriage goes stone cold dead in sex barring any doctor diagnosed health issues then there are only 2 possibillities. 

She is either having an affair or she doesnt find you attractive.

Your wife knows exactly what she is doing. She is deliberately gas lighting you and buying herself more time whilst she gets to live in the luxuary you provide for her.


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## JamesTKirk (Sep 8, 2015)

Kickit40, if you ever come back and read this I'll share something with you.
My wife was recently (a couple of months ago) told that her Vitamin D was way low (I think the number was 12, which is nearly non-existent.) Two days later she complained that her bones ached and I told her "That's your vitamin D deficiency right there."
I started feeding her (because she's not good about remembering to take them) 5000IU/day of Vitamin D and over the last few weeks she's been coming to me "horny" occasionally. The other night she practically ripped my clothes off and that hasn't happened in years.

Low D can have the side effect of low testosterone or estrogen in men and women. So I'm wondering if this alone was a major contributor to her low libido. It seems to be coming back, or at least strong when it does happen.

I know it's kind of a long shot, but consider having her labs done. Make sure she's taking a multivitamin, a b-complex, and D (at least 5000IU/day is well within the safe limit. 40,000 IU/day. is where you start to hit toxicity)


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