# Wife living in an alternate reality???



## Almost-Done (Mar 5, 2016)

My wife, possibly STBXW, calls me on Sunday and asks if she can come by to pick up some stuff. She's still in transition to her own place (eventually). She's still living with her parents for the last five weeks. I said, you can come by, no problem. She comes in and some small chatter, initially mostly positive, with a hug and a kiss (???). Then, as she's getting some stuff, she says this is very frustrating and angering. I said, I see. She said this whole ordeal is my fault and you should be ashamed of our situation. I was like, umm, you have no fault. Nope, it's mostly you, I am just a victim. Hmm.. Do you know how much rent is? Utilities? How it is to be uprooted from your home out of no where? I said, umm, yes, I've moved a few times. You had six weeks notice, and that was nearly two months ago. You've not looked anywhere. She said, she can only afford seedy areas, and it's my fault she's in this situation. She also is "forced" to sleep on her parents couch, but the extra bed is in an area of their home where it's just too hot (for her) to sleep. So she's "forced" to sleep on this couch in a cold, damp area of their home. I said I can understand your frustration, but it's not all my fault. You refuse to communicate. She then said you are difficult and hard to live with. I said really, how so? She said she will not get into it. I do not see how this is reality. You lived in a home that I paid all taxes, utilities, upkeep, food, services, cable, etc. You paid for just medical insurance and some restaurants. She said that was the agreement. I said with who? She said me. I was never there for this agreement. When you came home from work, you had dinner waiting for you most nights, with no appreciation. The weekends you spend with your friends and family since the beginning of the year, not with me. We sleep in separate beds for the last year or so. You refused to even try to come back to the main bedroom. You curse me out and talk horribly to me. You skipped my birthday two years in a row (but got a gift). Told me Valentine's Day was hard for you. We've not had intimacy in well over a year. What am I missing? I do not want to get into this she said. I said, okay, but how to you make one statement, but then, when examples I provide, you have response to? I ask you for examples, but you cannot recall any. Please, explain so I can understand better. Perhaps I am not understanding where you're coming from. Additional information would be of great help.

She said, I'm about done with what I need. I will see you in a few. Another kiss on the lips (she initiated, not me) and two hugs. So, maybe someone else can tell me what I am missing here. She's kissed me more times on Sunday than she has in the last six months. I am so lost...


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

I have no advice. If I understood women, I would not need to be here at TAM.

I just was curious if you got a dog yet?


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

@Uptown.

No, sir, you are not missing anything.

It sounds like she is reaching for anything to guilt you. 

It also sounds like you are making the right decision to proceed with divorce post haste.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## jerry123 (Apr 9, 2012)

I feel for you but I think it's time to move on. The more you let her play these games with you the more you're going to be set up for a fall. 

From what I read in you past threads the marriage is done. 2 people who want to stay married both work at it. If you are the only one working at it then she has the upper hand. 

The only way you get the upper hand now is to let her go. 

Fix your sh!t for YOU. You can't make her fix her sh!t. 

Some marriages fail, and you have to accept that. You'll find another women and that women will want to be with a strong confident guy. Not one she can walk all over.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MrHappyHat (Oct 24, 2012)

Seems pretty simple to me, you're wife is playing games with you and she's running circles around you.

If want some advice, I suggest you practice these non-committal statements:

"Wow."

"Well, that's interesting."

"Huh, you don't say?"

When she tries to force a direct answer from you, just flip it around on her:

"What do you mean by that?"

"Why the hostility?"

"Where'd that come from?"

"How'd you come up with that?"


She's trying to make you the bad guy. Facts and logic mean nothing to her, just how she feels and she feels that YOU ARE BAD.

There is no need to play nice with someone like this.


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## jerry123 (Apr 9, 2012)

Forgot to ask and have not read a lot of your other threads but...are you sure she is not in a EA/PA?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

BETTER would be to go watch TV in another room, but quietly monitor what she is taking from the house. do not engage in conversation if possible. and no arguing.

Make sure that the things you really want or need, especially legal documents, cash, valuables, are not where she can get at them.

If she has a house key, change the locks. Even if she gave it back to you she could have made copies.

If at all possible, get a list from her of what she needs to take from the house and shift all those things to a room by the front door, ready for her to take.

Do not let her graze indiscriminately throughout the house.

As for those kisses? too little, too late. Don't let her play on your emotions. go cold, finish the divorce and parting of belongings.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

I think she's findout out this moving out thing isn't going quite as swimmingly as she thought and she's trying to to get you to feel guilty and let her move back in. Don't fall for it and stay the course.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

You need to not engage when she starts in on this sh!t. If she wants to whine about her sleeping/living arrangements etc, you can just say "not my problem" and then leave the room. Because that's truth, what SHE has to deal with is NOT your problem. She is a big girl and has to be responsible for herself, maybe if she had taken better care of her marriage she wouldn't be IN this predicament. 

Too bad so sad.


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## Almost-Done (Mar 5, 2016)

No dog yet. Trying to get through this ordeal first. It is just very hard, as I am trying to figure out how everything fell apart. Nothing makes any sense. I know I am looking for a rational response and correction, but part of me wants to know WTF happened. How does someone you've been through thick and thin, and we were by each others side through everything become so disenfranchised and just pop?? Was it all fake? Part of me feel like I was played as a dummy. Part of me just wants to know WHY. I know the later I'll probably never know the answer to. It just hurts very badly.


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## joannacroc (Dec 17, 2014)

MrHappyHat said:


> Seems pretty simple to me, you're wife is playing games with you and she's running circles around you.
> 
> If want some advice, I suggest you practice these non-committal statements:
> 
> ...


This, 100%. If you engage with her in where your marriage went wrong, you can only cause yourself more pain. It's illogical. She's illogical. 

I've found when XH bemoans his current situation (also self-inflicted, like your STBXW), that "I'm sorry to hear that" and then silence tends to end the conversation. I'm not interested in hearing more from him, because I genuinely don't care. All you achieve when you try and get logical responses from her about why you were so hard to live with or what you did wrong is your own frustration. Don't invite more angst into your life. The next few months will be stressful enough already. Take care of yourself, OP.


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## Almost-Done (Mar 5, 2016)

jb02157 said:


> I think she's findout out this moving out thing isn't going quite as swimmingly as she thought and she's trying to to get you to feel guilty and let her move back in. Don't fall for it and stay the course.


I think, her complaining that she cannot afford rent in a nice area in town is her trying to get me to call everything off and let her back into the home. We're no where near that in my mind. She needs to be honest, not live in this BS she calls reality. I also do not know how she cannot find a place to live that is affordable. I picked out some nice places in her range, she said she doesn't need my help, but thanks. I said, okay, then stop complaining. Then she goes back and bashing me. I said everyone pays rent or a mortgage. Since I covered this, you didn't feel the financial pain. Seems much different when you're having to pay your share, no? She then goes into where she'll only have a few hundred left, if she's lucky after expenses. Well, not sure what to tell you I said. Next time, don't treat your partner like crap. She does her eyes to the sky look. 

It still just feels horrible. Though, it is a relief that she's not at the home. She cannot get in, as I changed the passcode. LOL. She was a bit upset about that. I honestly believe she feels that this is a power struggle and that she will be the victor. There is no power struggle from my side. I am tired of being treated like sh!t and being made to look like the bad guy in front of everyone. I did my best to make the home and our life the best possible. She's done jack sh!t. It is just very upsetting. Not sure how I could ever trust another woman again. This really hurts.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

You're gonna starve to death on her breadcrumbs.

Sounds like an entitled princess. The real problem is you.

Why are you even engaging this? File and move on.

You're wasting time and life for what?


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## Almost-Done (Mar 5, 2016)

jerry123 said:


> Forgot to ask and have not read a lot of your other threads but...are you sure she is not in a EA/PA?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No chance. The woman has ZERO interest in sex. She speaks to her mom (before moving out) 2 - 4 hours EVERY DAY. A bit weird for a woman her age. Yet, few words to me. However, before she moved in, talked every day for an hour or two. 

I also tapped her phone and tracked her location for a month. Nothing. She wouldn't be that stupid. I overheard her several times tell her mom that she thinks I am tracking her and monitoring her phone. She is married to a security consultant. LOL.


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## Almost-Done (Mar 5, 2016)

Marc878 said:


> You're gonna starve to death on her breadcrumbs.
> 
> Sounds like an entitled princess. The real problem is you.
> 
> ...


Filed in March. Hadn't seen her since then. This is the first time in about a month. She contacted me, not the reverse. The atty told me I need to allow her "reasonable access" to her belongings.


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## Almost-Done (Mar 5, 2016)

joannacroc said:


> This, 100%. If you engage with her in where your marriage went wrong, you can only cause yourself more pain. It's illogical. She's illogical.
> 
> I've found when XH bemoans his current situation (also self-inflicted, like your STBXW), that "I'm sorry to hear that" and then silence tends to end the conversation. I'm not interested in hearing more from him, because I genuinely don't care. All you achieve when you try and get logical responses from her about why you were so hard to live with or what you did wrong is your own frustration. Don't invite more angst into your life. The next few months will be stressful enough already. Take care of yourself, OP.


Yep, I am slowly coming towards this and using these principles. It's just taking me a longer time to get ahold of. It's not easy for me.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

Almost-Done said:


> I am so lost...


Seems fairly straight forward. She is trying to manipulate you with guilt and affection. Stop letting her hug and kiss you. Get some boundaries and stop piecemealing her stuff. Dump ALL of it on her parents lawn and go NO CONTACT. Start working on the 180 ASAP.


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## Almost-Done (Mar 5, 2016)

BetrayedDad said:


> Seems fairly straight forward. She is trying to manipulate you with guilt and affection. Stop letting her hug and kiss you. Get some boundaries and stop piecemealing her stuff. Dump ALL of it on her parents lawn and go NO CONTACT. Start working on the 180 ASAP.


Already working on the 180. 98% of her junk is gone. Only her crappy furniture is left. I had it moved into a separate room. Told her it will be moved into public storage if it isn't moved out by the 15th.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

Almost-Done said:


> My wife, possibly STBXW, calls me on Sunday and asks if she can come by to pick up some stuff. She's still in transition to her own place (eventually). She's still living with her parents for the last five weeks. I said, you can come by, no problem. She comes in and some small chatter, initially mostly positive, with a hug and a kiss (???). Then, as she's getting some stuff, she says this is very frustrating and angering. I said, I see. She said this whole ordeal is my fault and you should be ashamed of our situation. I was like, umm, you have no fault. Nope, it's mostly you, I am just a victim. Hmm.. Do you know how much rent is? Utilities? How it is to be uprooted from your home out of no where? I said, umm, yes, I've moved a few times. You had six weeks notice, and that was nearly two months ago. You've not looked anywhere. She said, she can only afford seedy areas, and it's my fault she's in this situation. She also is "forced" to sleep on her parents couch, but the extra bed is in an area of their home where it's just too hot (for her) to sleep. So she's "forced" to sleep on this couch in a cold, damp area of their home. I said I can understand your frustration, but it's not all my fault. You refuse to communicate. She then said you are difficult and hard to live with. I said really, how so? She said she will not get into it. I do not see how this is reality. You lived in a home that I paid all taxes, utilities, upkeep, food, services, cable, etc. You paid for just medical insurance and some restaurants. She said that was the agreement. I said with who? She said me. I was never there for this agreement. When you came home from work, you had dinner waiting for you most nights, with no appreciation. The weekends you spend with your friends and family since the beginning of the year, not with me. We sleep in separate beds for the last year or so. You refused to even try to come back to the main bedroom. You curse me out and talk horribly to me. You skipped my birthday two years in a row (but got a gift). Told me Valentine's Day was hard for you. We've not had intimacy in well over a year. What am I missing? I do not want to get into this she said. I said, okay, but how to you make one statement, but then, when examples I provide, you have response to? I ask you for examples, but you cannot recall any. Please, explain so I can understand better. Perhaps I am not understanding where you're coming from. Additional information would be of great help.
> 
> She said, I'm about done with what I need. I will see you in a few. Another kiss on the lips (she initiated, not me) and two hugs. So, maybe someone else can tell me what I am missing here. She's kissed me more times on Sunday than she has in the last six months. I am so lost...


There are a few moments in life when we have a flash of clarity. I was moving a lady out of my apartment, into a friend’s apartment. It was a shame, but this lady was spoilt and comically unreasonable. We had not seen the apartment, but it sounded nice. 
The apartment was not good. It was tiny and it would be her, her friend and a young child. There was not room for a separate sofa, just a crammed bedroom for the Mother and child to share a small bed and a largish chair for her. There was a bathroom shared with other apartments. 
I thought to myself, “She can’t stay here”
She looked at me to say, “I can’t stay here”
Then I suddenly realized, “Yes, she can”
And I never saw her again. Happy days.


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## BBF (May 21, 2015)

Sounds like my ex, a poster child for psychosis--she didn't even get along with herself. Everything was my fault. I do recommend that you carry a voice activated recorder when you meet with her. History changing is one thing, but going wacko and you end up with a domestic assault accusation is an all-together serious matter. When they are bat-sh!t crazy, you never know what they are capable of.


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## Lloyd Dobler (Apr 24, 2014)

jb02157 said:


> I think she's findout out this moving out thing isn't going quite as swimmingly as she thought and she's trying to to get you to feel guilty and let her move back in. Don't fall for it and stay the course.


Exactly - seems to me she's trying to string you along and keep her options open. Everyone has given a lot of good suggestions about NOT playing along, and don't let her get close enough to kiss you.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

Almost-Done said:


> I honestly believe she feels that this is a power struggle and that she will be the victor. There is no power struggle from my side. I am tired of being treated like sh!t and being made to look like the bad guy in front of everyone. I did my best to make the home and our life the best possible. She's done jack sh!t. It is just very upsetting. Not sure how I could ever trust another woman again. This really hurts.


I definitely understand and I'm in the same place. It seems that it's my wife's mission to make me look like the bad guy whether it costs the family or not. It seems to be the thing of greatest importance. Hang in there, keep fighting and stay the course. Don't let her attempts to move back in work, she's had her chance and can't be trusted.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

Almost-Done said:


> Filed in March. Hadn't seen her since then. This is the first time in about a month. She contacted me, not the reverse. The atty told me I need to allow her "reasonable access" to her belongings.


Good job. You're quicker than most. 

Don't keep your hopes up. I doubt this will ever change.


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## Mclane (Apr 28, 2016)

You need to stop caring and get to the point that posting a thread like this does not even cross your mind.

It takes time.

Been there.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

You have to stop the "I told you so" type of responses to her attempt s to get you to pity her for not liking the cost of living on her own.

Disengage, disengage, disengage!

You said she is illogical. Then react to that state of being.

Get her out of your life as quickly as you can. Do not give her an opening to be mad and get a shark lawyer biting into you.


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## Almost-Done (Mar 5, 2016)

I do not pity her, I feel sorry for the situation. There is still a part of me that cares deeply for her, and believe it or not, it hurts when I see/hear her continue to make foolish decisions from people who do not know the whole story. In the end, who does these decisions effect? Her, and her badly. Not me directly. I already filed and we've been proceeding. Technically we're in the legally separated part of the process. I just wish it didn't end like this. I do not know why, but it kills me to go through this. I know, technically, we've not been together for 1.5 + years, but it's still hard seeing that she will not be in my life in the future. It just sucks. The old saying, a person must hit rock bottom before they can look up and dust themselves off is true here. It just seems she still has ways to go. Part of me just wants to help, but the other part of me remembers the things she's done and it's just a bad place to be stuck between. I know I am ranting and venting, but I feel how I feel. I just do not know what could had been done to avoid this situation. I wish things didn't end up like this. It just doesn't seem right. I know, I've been told, if it feels uncomfortable, it's actually probably the right thing to do; so I am doing it. Again, it just sucks.


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## Mclane (Apr 28, 2016)

Almost-Done said:


> I just wish it didn't end like this.


That's the same as saying "It didn't end well".

Here's some news for you:

It NEVER ends well.

So end it as quickly as possible and move on with your life. She's drained enough of your resources. She's not your problem anymore.


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## MrsAldi (Apr 15, 2016)

Sorry but all she wants back is her comfortable life back. You paid all the bills beforehand right? And now she has to be independent? Think about it. That's all I'm saying. 

Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


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## Almost-Done (Mar 5, 2016)

Mclane said:


> That's the same as saying "It didn't end well".
> 
> Here's some news for you:
> 
> ...


Yes, I know the drill. I've heard this already from others. Just a shame.



MrsAldi said:


> Sorry but all she wants back is her comfortable life back. You paid all the bills beforehand right? And now she has to be independent? Think about it. That's all I'm saying.
> 
> Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


Yes, all common bills such as food, most dinners, utilities, cable, insurance, mortgage, taxes, etc. She paid for her medical insurance, car, cell clothes, and some dinners. She felt I should had paid for her health insurance as well. She claims that she's independent, as I do not pay for her bills above. She also stated, since it is my home (now it's my home, other times it was ours), she shouldn't have to contribute since the bills were already here and she had no vote. I said you live here no? Only sleep here she said. :frown2:

Asked after we got married to get a joint checking account, which she was originally on board with. She changed her mind saying she didn't want me to watch over her spending. It started to go down hill from there.

She's about as independent as a 2 year old child... Maybe down the line she'll appreciate what she had. Chances are, I doubt it though. Very stubborn and thick headed. She wasn't like this until she moved in and we got married. Before, very open minded. Not sure what happened. People say she realy didn't change, you just stsrted to open up your eyes and finally saw you received a raw deal. Again, when we were dating and engsged, she was wonderful. I just do not understand the transformation into this she-devil.


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## MrsAldi (Apr 15, 2016)

@Almost-Done I read your post thoroughly, you gave her a decent life, yet she demanded more from you. Like with the bday & Valentines gifts etc. 

Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

Almost-Done said:


> Yes, I know the drill. I've heard this already from others. Just a shame.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It is true that people rarely fundamentally change. However, peoples' view of life can change as their circumstances change it does happen that some women will confidently assert things that would have been risible to them a month previously when they were unmarried.

I had a comparable situation. The effort I put in to make it work was almost comical, but post marriage, her expectations were so high that it actually made my MC's jaw drop. 

The most annoying people for the next year will be women explaining why it was all your fault and lazy men with hard working wives explaining why they are amazing and you could have learnt from them. For about a year, I wanted to smash the latter group's head in. Then you get over it, then you're free


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

Almost-Done said:


> Yes, I know the drill. I've heard this already from others. Just a shame.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's not the transformation into the she-devil that you don't understand, it's how she could fool you into thinking she wasnt.

She will never appreciate what she had, she will only spin it in her head how you took it away. This is what people who are "perfect and without fault" do. They don't ever take an honest assessment of themselves or the situation. 

You still have concerns about being the bad guy, dont. At the end of divorce no one cares who was right or wrong, good/bad guy.


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## CH (May 18, 2010)

Almost-Done said:


> People say she realy didn't change, you just stsrted to open up your eyes and finally saw you received a raw deal. Again, when we were dating and engsged, she was wonderful. I just do not understand the transformation into this she-devil.


This, if you really look back you'll see the little signs during the honeymoon phase. Take out all to googly eyes, sex, I love yous and you'll see what others have seen for A VERY LONG time already.

When others tell you that you just didn't see it, they're being nice instead of saying

Dude, she/he was a total *bleep* and we couldn't stand her guts but since you loved her we threw on our smiles and tolerated her. 

Why because you were a good friend and we love you. Even if they had told you about her flaws, you would have brushed them off as being crazy or just trying to break up the most perfect couple on this planet.

Your life, your choices. And I'm pretty sure some of your buddies might have thrown out little hints here and there when you were dating her. Think back on it.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

CH said:


> This, if you really look back you'll see the little signs during the honeymoon phase. Take out all to googly eyes, sex, I love yous and you'll see what others have seen for A VERY LONG time already.
> 
> When others tell you that you just didn't see it, they're being nice instead of saying
> 
> ...


My ex-wife and I moved shortly after getting married. 

When my friends from the first place heard that we had split up, they were shocked. A few thought I must have cheated of gone off the rails or something.

Friends from where we moved to though I was crazy for ever marrying her and even some of her friends sided with me in the divorce.

Sometimes, marriage really does change people. This is not just a sexist stereotype to avoid that man having responsibility. People are affected my circumstance, and we would all act terribly certain circumstances. For some people, this is prompted by a wedding.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

Ahhhhh.... the independent woman! I do hope once you cut her off $wise you sent her the song

by Destiny's Child! Her payouts were what most teenagers / college students are who still live

at home. She's never saw reality for what it is. Some people define torture as having to decide between

the suede dress or paying rent / mortgage. That is the group your STBXW is in.

Everything is about HER. She is short of cash and she looks to you

HELP ME

SAVE ME

FIGHT FOR ME

you @#$%^^^ @EFG%$#

Yeah..... I'd rather pizz in a dry creekbed and see what happens.

Wish I'd seen your thread earlier but you seem to have a somewhat handle on things..... and are getting A1

advice from others. See.... it is best to give defiant people exactly what they think they want.....

because it rarely ever turns out as they had planned. Exact thing happened to my XW.

I would love to be in your shoes for about a month.... see I am a sociopath but with a conscience.

Well.... until I am crossed. If someone is with me.... I'll give shirt off my back.... if against me..............

But to add to MrHappyHat's replies..... how about "The heII you say"

You showed some Co-D tendencies.... here is a thread you may want to check out.... it's short

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/going-through-divorce-separation/155305-weeds-codependence.html


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## Almost-Done (Mar 5, 2016)

Amazing how much if this is true. She's already complaining that the money she has to spend on living expenses. She said she's doing everything herself. She's going to be an independent woman again. I said, okay. What would you like, a gold star? I thought you were already an independent woman? Which is it? 

Never again... This has been the worst experience in my life. Pretty much done with marriage.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

It's funny what happens when you give defiant people what they claim to want.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

farsidejunky said:


> It's funny what happens when you give defiant people what they claim to want.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


............. never seems to turn out as they had planned.

Gotta love karma


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## Almost-Done (Mar 5, 2016)

It is truly a shame. When I first met her and through the first year, I thought the world of her. The fact is life happened and she couldn't roll with the punches. I really hoped the divorce papers would do something positive for her. As upset of the situation I am, I really wanted this to work. I tried really, really hard to make it work. If I did something wrong, I told her and others, tell me. Nothing. I just feel bad and guilty. Not bad or guilty enough to continue this marriage, just wish this didn't end like this. Low and behold, apparently, people thought that she had a hidden agenda and wasn't as nice as she portrayed. I, of course, didn't see it. I still do not know what she gained.

She could of had it all. Stable life, family, financial security, and a loving husband would do anything for her. All I asked was for respect, trust, intimacy and companionship. I guess I asked for too much.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Some people aren't capable of sustaining that long-term. The only thing you can do now is try and recognize the red flags you see from her in retrospect, and watch for them like a hawk in future partners.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Almost-Done (Mar 5, 2016)

farsidejunky said:


> Some people aren't capable of sustaining that long-term. The only thing you can do now is try and recognize the red flags you see from her in retrospect, and watch for them like a hawk in future partners.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


I cannot see me getting into another relationship anytime soon. Marriage I do not think would happen again either. People change during marriage. This has been pure hell, and this was from a woman who was always positive, bubbly and reassuring. She turned into a negative, mean, curse-laden, pessimistic worrywart over nonsense. Claims it was me, then smiles.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

A TAM friend summed it up best when UG and I split

"She self-sabotaged the relationship because she felt as if she did not deserve one."


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

Almost-Done said:


> I cannot see me getting into another relationship anytime soon. Marriage I do not think would happen again either. People change during marriage. This has been pure hell, and this was from a woman who was always positive, bubbly and reassuring. She turned into a negative, mean, curse-laden, pessimistic worrywart over nonsense. Claims it was me, then smiles.


Almost ever guy says that after the 1st one ends.

You do get much more gun shy of it. I would have to meet the right one and that is after a deep

examination. I want kids much more than a M.... LTR sure! Bit harder to do if you're the guy though


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## Almost-Done (Mar 5, 2016)

Chuck71 said:


> Almost ever guy says that after the 1st one ends.
> 
> You do get much more gun shy of it. I would have to meet the right one and that is after a deep
> 
> examination. I want kids much more than a M.... LTR sure! Bit harder to do if you're the guy though


I will stick to my guns on marriage. LTR, I will be open too. Marriage, it's just not worth getting the state involved again. If a woman doesn't want to stay, she'll know where the door is. I can always adopt a kid or have a surrogate birth. At least I wouldn't have to worry about alimony or child support.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Almost,
I believe that your depiction of events is accurate, but incomplete. 

Not saying you are lying to us, so much as avoiding the painful truth of this situation.

A good marriage is mechanically solid - and emotionally positive. Being generous is great. But you need to assess the degree to which a partner craves your company, (non sexual) physical touch and sex.

Because it doesn't matter how much you love them, if they aren't into you. 







Almost-Done said:


> It is truly a shame. When I first met her and through the first year, I thought the world of her. The fact is life happened and she couldn't roll with the punches. I really hoped the divorce papers would do something positive for her. As upset of the situation I am, I really wanted this to work. I tried really, really hard to make it work. If I did something wrong, I told her and others, tell me. Nothing. I just feel bad and guilty. Not bad or guilty enough to continue this marriage, just wish this didn't end like this. Low and behold, apparently, people thought that she had a hidden agenda and wasn't as nice as she portrayed. I, of course, didn't see it. I still do not know what she gained.
> 
> She could of had it all. Stable life, family, financial security, and a loving husband would do anything for her. All I asked was for respect, trust, intimacy and companionship. I guess I asked for too much.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

Almost-Done said:


> I will stick to my guns on marriage. LTR, I will be open too. Marriage, it's just not worth getting *the state involved again.* If a woman doesn't want to stay, she'll know where the door is. I can always adopt a kid or have a surrogate birth. At least I wouldn't have to worry about alimony or child support.


That's the sad part. The state causes more distress than the WS does. I'm not a fan of the

"state" in most areas. Someone who does not know you, spouse, kids, anyone involved....

will make a decision which will impact your life for one year to twenty years. 

Sounds more like a sentence than a decree. Too bad D courts do not have appellate courts.......

death row inmates do. Something to think about......


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## Almost-Done (Mar 5, 2016)

I understand Mem, I can go step by step and write a dissertation on the relationship from start to finish include the good and bad from both of us; however, I do not think anyone would care to read it. Fact of the matter is/was, we were happier (in bliss) before marriage. She did pressure for marriage, and I caved as I wanted to make her happy. She was very happy until she moved in. She didn't like the change. I am not just talking about sex; while that got less and less as soon as she moved in. The point is she stopped trying in the relationship. Some people, I've read, just give up and let go after the knot is tied. I do not believe I've done that. Here's our week before marriage. Visit each other once or twice during the week. Usually, I went to her, as she was too tired to come to me. No problem. So I did that. Then we'd come over either place, again usually her's, and then go out to dinner, an event, etc one of those days. Also, spend a half a day (usually Saturday) with her parents. Again, no problem. Soon as she moved in... We discussed that we'd cook on the weekends for the meals for the week; like her parents do. Nope, that never happened. Why? We can't do that, as we're going to her parents each and every Saturday morning. Sunday, she's too tired from the five day week, so she just relaxes and watches TV. Guess who's cooking all the time, me. At first, she appreciated it, so I didn't mind. Then, no she complained about this or that. She asked to try a particular Mexican dish that I am quite good at, at least I am told. She didn't like it. No problem, it is not for every one. She then, in front of the entire family, said the meal was horrible. Everyone, including her side of her family, that that was pretty distasteful. I said, if you didn't like, no problem, you didn't have to state this in front of everyone. She smiled and said, sorry . I ask to go out with her, nope, too tired for me, but for her friends, no problem. She even bumped her parents on some Saturday's to go out the the girls. Me, I am stuck at the last minute, usually at home. I said, let's take a trip. With you she said? No thanks. Not interested. How about a play or a musical? No thanks. However, during the week, she'll sit in front of the TV and we'll watch something for two hours. 

It's not like I have not tried. She loves Bruce Springsteen. I arranged, before this disaster, front row tickets and a meet and greet, she loved it. That faded fast. For V-D day 2015, I got tickets to a really hot show, front row. She didn't like the seats, so she made us move all the way up to the nosebleed seats. There was/is no way for me to please her. Maybe she doesn't love me any more, maybe she never really did. Yes, I will agree, I loved her more than she loved me. Everyone knew that. Well, except her. I would say your making me feel bad or upset? How is that possible? You have no feelings? I just walk away even more upset. 

I know I tried, that much I do know. It is just not right.


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## Almost-Done (Mar 5, 2016)

Chuck71 said:


> That's the sad part. The state causes more distress than the WS does. I'm not a fan of the
> 
> "state" in most areas. Someone who does not know you, spouse, kids, anyone involved....
> 
> ...


So true. Once you get past a certain amount of years married and kids in the mix, it can get very costly and complicated on the legal side of things. Not to mention the added emotional trauma.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

I'm a woman and from my perspective she definitely used you (and, frankly, you let her). She wanted marriage -- but not because she was deeply in love with you. Her purpose was financial security and she got it because you handed it to her on a silver platter. But she wasn't grateful. She felt she deserved it. So she did as she pleased, not surprisingly, and her plans didn't include you because you were just the money source and not who she chose to spend her time with. 

The game she's playing now -- with kisses and hugs -- is called "lure him back in". She doesn't like her new view of the reality that's waiting out there now. She's scared and she's thinking she could tolerate you again for that financial security she's losing. 

It's all about what you can do for her. And she's not the only woman out there like that. Some women marry for reasons that have nothing to do with love or attraction. So beware in the future.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Almost-Done said:


> I understand Mem, I can go step by step and write a dissertation on the relationship from start to finish include the good and bad from both of us; however, I do not think anyone would care to read it. Fact of the matter is/was, we were happier (in bliss) before marriage. She did pressure for marriage, and I caved as I wanted to make her happy. She was very happy until she moved in. She didn't like the change. I am not just talking about sex; while that got less and less as soon as she moved in. The point is she stopped trying in the relationship. Some people, I've read, just give up and let go after the knot is tied. I do not believe I've done that. Here's our week before marriage. Visit each other once or twice during the week. Usually, I went to her, as she was too tired to come to me. No problem. So I did that. Then we'd come over either place, again usually her's, and then go out to dinner, an event, etc one of those days. Also, spend a half a day (usually Saturday) with her parents. Again, no problem. Soon as she moved in... We discussed that we'd cook on the weekends for the meals for the week; like her parents do. Nope, that never happened. Why? We can't do that, as we're going to her parents each and every Saturday morning. Sunday, she's too tired from the five day week, so she just relaxes and watches TV. Guess who's cooking all the time, me. At first, she appreciated it, so I didn't mind. Then, no she complained about this or that. She asked to try a particular Mexican dish that I am quite good at, at least I am told. She didn't like it. No problem, it is not for every one. She then, in front of the entire family, said the meal was horrible. Everyone, including her side of her family, that that was pretty distasteful. I said, if you didn't like, no problem, you didn't have to state this in front of everyone. She smiled and said, sorry . I ask to go out with her, nope, too tired for me, but for her friends, no problem. She even bumped her parents on some Saturday's to go out the the girls. Me, I am stuck at the last minute, usually at home. I said, let's take a trip. With you she said? No thanks. Not interested. How about a play or a musical? No thanks. However, during the week, she'll sit in front of the TV and we'll watch something for two hours.
> 
> It's not like I have not tried. She loves Bruce Springsteen. I arranged, before this disaster, front row tickets and a meet and greet, she loved it. That faded fast. For V-D day 2015, I got tickets to a really hot show, front row. She didn't like the seats, so she made us move all the way up to the nosebleed seats. There was/is no way for me to please her. Maybe she doesn't love me any more, maybe she never really did. Yes, I will agree, I loved her more than she loved me. Everyone knew that. Well, except her. I would say your making me feel bad or upset? How is that possible? You have no feelings? I just walk away even more upset.
> 
> I know I tried, that much I do know. It is just not right.


Do you know what a transceiver is?
It transmits AND receives.

Right now - you are in 'transmission only' mode.

When you are willing to receive - say so. 

Because - you have a fair amount to learn about these type situationso.



Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

Openminded said:


> I'm a woman and from my perspective she definitely used you (and, frankly, you let her). She wanted marriage -- but not because she was deeply in love with you. Her purpose was financial security and she got it because you handed it to her on a silver platter. But she wasn't grateful. She felt she deserved it. So she did as she pleased, not surprisingly, and her plans didn't include you because you were just the money source and not who she chose to spend her time with.
> 
> The game she's playing now -- with kisses and hugs -- is called "lure him back in". She doesn't like her new view of the reality that's waiting out there now. She's scared and she's thinking she could tolerate you again for that financial security she's losing.
> 
> It's all about what you can do for her. And she's not the only woman out there like that. Some women marry for reasons that have nothing to do with love or attraction. So beware in the future.


I doubt she did it in cold blood. When someone becomes lazy, they have to justify it to themselves. At that point, they are oppressed and there is very little that can be done.

Perhaps, if she wrote, we would hear that tale of a loving wife who has always been there. Her husband is suddenly going through a hard time, a mid-life crisis. With her not being able to work, it is hard to contribute financially, but she has done everything she can. BS, but it would be sincere.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

There are women who marry only for financial security (just as there are men who marry only for looks). My vote says she's one who did and now her safety net is gone and she doesn't like it. So she's likely going to try to get him back -- while trying not to have to admit any fault.


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## Almost-Done (Mar 5, 2016)

Openminded said:


> I'm a woman and from my perspective she definitely used you (and, frankly, you let her). She wanted marriage -- but not because she was deeply in love with you. Her purpose was financial security and she got it because you handed it to her on a silver platter. But she wasn't grateful. She felt she deserved it. So she did as she pleased, not surprisingly, and her plans didn't include you because you were just the money source and not who she chose to spend her time with.
> 
> The game she's playing now -- with kisses and hugs -- is called "lure him back in". She doesn't like her new view of the reality that's waiting out there now. She's scared and she's thinking she could tolerate you again for that financial security she's losing.
> 
> It's all about what you can do for her. And she's not the only woman out there like that. Some women marry for reasons that have nothing to do with love or attraction. So beware in the future.


I will be honest, I do not pretend to know everything, I just try to treat others like I would want to be treated. I tried to stay true to the vows od to death due us part and for better or worse. I assumed that is what people did. You ask her, she says I am mean some times. I said, I do not recall, please be more specific. She doesn't have specifics. I said, then how can you make a statement like that? I now get the famous whatever and I'm fine response. 

Please tell me what I did wrong and how I deserved this. I honestly eant to learn so I can attempt to avoid this agsin in the future. 




MEM11363 said:


> Do you know what a transceiver is?
> It transmits AND receives.
> 
> Right now - you are in 'transmission only' mode.
> ...


True. Can you give me additional tips and suggestions on how I am going about everything wrong?



Mr The Other said:


> I doubt she did it in cold blood. When someone becomes lazy, they have to justify it to themselves. At that point, they are oppressed and there is very little that can be done.
> 
> Perhaps, if she wrote, we would hear that tale of a loving wife who has always been there. Her husband is suddenly going through a hard time, a mid-life crisis. With her not being able to work, it is hard to contribute financially, but she has done everything she can. BS, but it would be sincere.


She's lazy, that is for sure. She has contributed at times financially a few hundred dollars a month, but that's not the point. Not looking for more money from her, looking for a partnership. She says I need to learn to share. I share eveything. I asked what do you mean by that? What do you share? You want separate accounts, no access to passwords, etc. You have all my info. Sh makes zero sense at most times.



Openminded said:


> There are women who marry only for financial security (just as there are men who marry only for looks). My vote says she's one who did and now her safety net is gone and she doesn't like it. So she's likely going to try to get him back -- while trying not to have to admit any fault.


She makes a lot of money, but yes, she is now really worried about making ends meet all on her lonesome. However, she's yet to admit anything or take any responibility. I do not see any reconcilation here. She did stated a few times if she were to move back, changes would need to be made. I said, really. Good for me that doesn't seem to happen then.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Yes to the post below.

It's also true - a certain type of guy - loves a woman. And he wants to love her - by spending time, touching and having sex with her. 

And in that fog of love - he ignores her growing aversion to his company, his touch and sex with him. 

And in the pursuit of getting what he wants - he smothers to death whatever love she might have felt for him. 




Openminded said:


> There are women who marry only for financial security (just as there are men who marry only for looks). My vote says she's one who did and now her safety net is gone and she doesn't like it. So she's likely going to try to get him back -- while trying not to have to admit any fault.


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## Almost-Done (Mar 5, 2016)

So, you are saying, paying too little attention in a relationship is not good, however, paying too much attntion isn't good either. It seems like a zero sum game then. No?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Almost,

I agree with your assessment of A2 (your wife) and of her behavior. 

But you can't change her - at all. So the questin is - do you want to change yourself? 

Do you want to understand how you contributed to this mess?
And are you open to the idea that - you did?




Almost-Done said:


> I will be honest, I do not pretend to know everything, I just try to treat others like I would want to be treated. I tried to stay true to the vows od to death due us part and for better or worse. I assumed that is what people did. You ask her, she says I am mean some times. I said, I do not recall, please be more specific. She doesn't have specifics. I said, then how can you make a statement like that? I now get the famous whatever and I'm fine response.
> 
> Please tell me what I did wrong and how I deserved this. I honestly eant to learn so I can attempt to avoid this agsin in the future.
> 
> ...


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## Almost-Done (Mar 5, 2016)

MEM11363 said:


> Almost,
> 
> I agree with your assessment of A2 (your wife) and of her behavior.
> 
> ...


Yes, I would like to know.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

There's 4 quadrants in any relationship:
1. How you feel about the person - independent of how they treat you
2. How you feel about the way they treat you
3. How they feel about you as a person
4. How they feel about the way you treat them

You weighted (1) very high, and (2) much lower. 

She loved how you treated her, but didn't love you much as a person.

The classic trajectory in a case like this is as simple as it is ugly. 

I call it the stability staircase. Sadly it's a walk DOWN the staircase. 

The more stability she feels - the more certain she feels of your commitment - the less effort she puts in. 

The catalysts for less effort are:
1. Telling them you want/agree to getting engaged 
2. Actually getting engaged
3. Marriage
4. First child
5. Last child

People get confused about thngs that are core and things that either amplify or depress that 'core' reaction. 

If you lack - love for the core of a person - no amount of money or generosity can change that. 







Almost-Done said:


> Yes, I would like to know.


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## Almost-Done (Mar 5, 2016)

MEM11363 said:


> There's 4 quadrants in any relationship:
> 1. How you feel about the person - independent of how they treat you
> 2. How you feel about the way they treat you
> 3. How they feel about you as a person
> ...


I get what you are saying, but the question remains, then how does one get into a healthy equal relationship? I do not want to go into a consistant rollercoaster like this.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Almost,
What you described was a case where it was very clear she wasn't into you after you got engaged. Even more so right after marriage.

This wasn't a situation you failed to understand. You wanted her, so you proceeded despite totally clear signals that she didn't crave your company or your touch. She wanted financial support and that's it. And that became glaringly obvious as the wedding approached and hammered home right after the wedding. 

Huge difference between: not understanding a situation vs understanding it very well but not liking it






Almost-Done said:


> I get what you are saying, but the question remains, then how does one get into a healthy equal relationship? I do not want to go into a consistant rollercoaster like this.


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## Almost-Done (Mar 5, 2016)

MEM11363 said:


> Almost,
> What you described was a case where it was very clear she wasn't into you after you got engaged. Even more so right after marriage.
> 
> This wasn't a situation you failed to understand. You wanted her, so you proceeded despite totally clear signals that she didn't crave your company or your touch. She wanted financial support and that's it. And that became glaringly obvious as the wedding approached and hammered home right after the wedding.
> ...


I've suspected that for a while now. I came to my senses and feel she realized that I was just good enough to marry and have children. If it didn't work out, well, at least she'd have children. We earn the same amount of money, so I do not think it was a financial issue. I think it was a maternal time clock issue. Or, maybe not. If that were the case, how come she's avoided intimacy or other fertility methods? This is what I am trying to understand. It seems she's sabotaging herself on every turn she makes. Someone is steering her mind, I do not think it is her.

I also asked her point blank months ago do you find me attractive? Are you still interested in me sexually? She said yes, she just doesn't feel like sex with me nor anyone. 

It's just very bazar to me.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

If you google: how to tell if a woman is into you

You will get a lot of good information. 

That said - I'd like to recommend you watch the tv series: Lie to me

You will learn a lot. 






Almost-Done said:


> I've suspected that for a while now. I came to my senses and feel she realized that I was just good enough to marry and have children. If it didn't work out, well, at least she'd have children. We earn the same amount of money, so I do not think it was a financial issue. I think it was a maternal time clock issue. Or, maybe not. If that were the case, how come she's avoided intimacy or other fertility methods? This is what I am trying to understand. It seems she's sabotaging herself on every turn she makes. Someone is steering her mind, I do not think it is her.
> 
> I also asked her point blank months ago do you find me attractive? Are you still interested in me sexually? She said yes, she just doesn't feel like sex with me nor anyone.
> 
> It's just very bazar to me.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

Almost-Done said:


> I've suspected that for a while now. I came to my senses and feel she realized that I was just good enough to marry and have children. If it didn't work out, well, at least she'd have children. We earn the same amount of money, so I do not think it was a financial issue. I think it was a maternal time clock issue. Or, maybe not. If that were the case, how come she's avoided intimacy or other fertility methods? This is what I am trying to understand. It seems she's sabotaging herself on every turn she makes. Someone is steering her mind, I do not think it is her.
> 
> I also asked her point blank months ago do you find me attractive? Are you still interested in me sexually? She said yes, she just doesn't feel like sex with me nor anyone.
> 
> It's just very bazar to me.


The fable of the fox and the scorpion is for such occasions. She is living in her own fantasy world. 

There will be no justice, but there will be consequences.

The thirties is a difficult time for many women. They are used to being young women with their futures ahead of them. Suddenly, their attractiveness declines and at the same time they realize the have been trying to be happy in life by following a recipe that society gave them (which comes out as "I am tired of only living for other people", even if they have always been selfish).

Men go mad too. We just have our own cliches!


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## Almost-Done (Mar 5, 2016)

MEM11363 said:


> If you google: how to tell if a woman is into you
> 
> You will get a lot of good information.
> 
> ...


Yes, I am well aware. I checked this when we were dating. Every notion was checked off. Until two years ago, everything was grand. Nearly, perfect bliss. I had her back, she had mine. 

The ability for her to conceive naturally I feel started to break the marriage. I offered all alternatives, and she refused as she fears her eggs are all bad. Suddenly, it's my fault that she waited so long. We've been trying since marriage, then she stops wanting to try, and that is when the intimacy ended. 

Lie to me is on Netflix, so I will watch.

I know I seem very naive, but I am really not. I just was fighting like hell to keep our marriage together. I guess, one person cannot keep a marriage together. I realized the change in her feelings towards me when the above-mentioned issue started to haunt her. Instead of finding a solution together, it seemed she became more distant. After the VARs and convos with her Mom and BF, I knew this wasn't going to last. Ironically, she keeps on asking me what my therapist says and also tells me I bet you and her are badmouthing me left and right. I said no, not really. My therapist doesn't attack the other spouse like yours. It's just a disastrous car crash.


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## Almost-Done (Mar 5, 2016)

Mr The Other said:


> The fable of the fox and the scorpion is for such occasions. She is living in her own fantasy world.
> 
> There will be no justice, but there will be consequences.
> 
> ...


That is true. She is self-sabotaging her life's dreams. Do you know she told her BF a few months ago, that when the choices of being miserable marriage or no marriage at all, she'd rather be in the miserable marriage because at least she knows what she's in for. 

One day she'll maybe realize the mistakes that she's made. I realized mine and worked on them. She's a perfect, supporting and loving wife that does everything for her husband. When asked, what do you do? She just says, you know. 

I just wanted a woman to love me for me, nothing else. I ask nothing of her besides love, companionship, trust and respect. What did I ask for that was too much? What a disaster.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

Almost-Done said:


> Yes, I am well aware. I checked this when we were dating. Every notion was checked off. Until two years ago, everything was grand. Nearly, perfect bliss. I had her back, she had mine.
> 
> The ability for her to conceive naturally I feel started to break the marriage. I offered all alternatives, and she refused as she fears her eggs are all bad. Suddenly, it's my fault that she waited so long. We've been trying since marriage, then she stops wanting to try, and that is when the intimacy ended.
> 
> ...


People might not change deep to the core, but the way they behave and react can change radically. While there is a possibility that your spouse is just going through a bad spell, it makes sense to fight for the marriage. My ex- assumed the problems in the marriage were me going through a bad spell and we might have worked it out if she had fought. There are plenty on here that will tell you it is your fault for choosing a bad 'un, but sometimes it happens to the best of us. You cannot really help someone becoming deluded.


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## Almost-Done (Mar 5, 2016)

Mr The Other said:


> People might not change deep to the core, but the way they behave and react can change radically. While there is a possibility that your spouse is just going through a bad spell, it makes sense to fight for the marriage. My ex- assumed the problems in the marriage were me going through a bad spell and we might have worked it out if she had fought. There are plenty on here that will tell you it is your fault for choosing a bad 'un, but sometimes it happens to the best of us. You cannot really help someone becoming deluded.


Tried to work on it, but it's just I get nothing from her in terms of what she's looking for. Before filing, she said she wants a family, as do I. I said we stopped trying because of you, not me. I cannot force you to have a baby. She said you really do not want any kids.  When we were engaged, I started to put 500 - 750 a month in a savings account to handle child care and any fertility issues. As of now, the purse is over 45k. What is she talking about? She just so lost in her own world of depression, I do not see how to get her out of it. What is making it worse is that her BF, Parents and therapist are egging her on. Doesn't any of them know there is another side? A coin has two sides, as does a story. Here's the difference, mine I can back it up with documented proof. 

I do not want to work towards a resolution? Hmm, who's the one who refuses to allow me to go to her therapist? I mean she's did everything to sabotage any possibility of reconciliation. Yet, it's all my fault? Logically, that is not even possible. For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. Doesn't any of these brainiacs know this? How does such a happy, positive and bubbly (not stupid) person morph into what I have now?

Something just doesn't fit.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

Almost-Done said:


> Tried to work on it, but it's just I get nothing from her in terms of what she's looking for. Before filing, she said she wants a family, as do I. I said we stopped trying because of you, not me. I cannot force you to have a baby. She said you really do not want any kids.  When we were engaged, I started to put 500 - 750 a month in a savings account to handle child care and any fertility issues. As of now, the purse is over 45k. What is she talking about? She just so lost in her own world of depression, I do not see how to get her out of it. What is making it worse is that her BF, Parents and therapist are egging her on. Doesn't any of them know there is another side? A coin has two sides, as does a story. Here's the difference, mine I can back it up with documented proof.
> 
> I do not want to work towards a resolution? Hmm, who's the one who refuses to allow me to go to her therapist? I mean she's did everything to sabotage any possibility of reconciliation. Yet, it's all my fault? Logically, that is not even possible. For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. Doesn't any of these brainiacs know this? How does such a happy, positive and bubbly (not stupid) person morph into what I have now?
> 
> Something just doesn't fit.


I agree that this doesn't make sense.

And I am including the "usual run" of cases we get around here.

Her behavior sounds more like that of someone who is mentally ill.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

Almost-Done said:


> Tried to work on it, but it's just I get nothing from her in terms of what she's looking for. Before filing, she said she wants a family, as do I. I said we stopped trying because of you, not me. I cannot force you to have a baby. She said you really do not want any kids.  When we were engaged, I started to put 500 - 750 a month in a savings account to handle child care and any fertility issues. As of now, the purse is over 45k. What is she talking about? She just so lost in her own world of depression, I do not see how to get her out of it. What is making it worse is that her BF, Parents and therapist are egging her on. Doesn't any of them know there is another side? A coin has two sides, as does a story. Here's the difference, mine I can back it up with documented proof.
> 
> I do not want to work towards a resolution? Hmm, who's the one who refuses to allow me to go to her therapist? I mean she's did everything to sabotage any possibility of reconciliation. Yet, it's all my fault? Logically, that is not even possible. For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. Doesn't any of these brainiacs know this? How does such a happy, positive and bubbly (not stupid) person morph into what I have now?
> 
> Something just doesn't fit.


It does fit. She was unhappy and started living in an alternate reality. You have nailed it. What is hard to face up to is that her actions from this delusion will have severe consequences for her. She had taken to a fantasy world rather than get on with life. However, by helping protect her from those consequences, you are allowing her to remain deluded. 

It does fit, but you have to allow her to live with the consequences of her actions.


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## Almost-Done (Mar 5, 2016)

tech-novelist said:


> I agree that this doesn't make sense.
> 
> And I am including the "usual run" of cases we get around here.
> 
> Her behavior sounds more like that of someone who is mentally ill.


I am not qualified to make that designation, and I do not think that. I just think she's really depressed about her life. She's still at her parents home. I still worry about her when she'll be on her own. Depressed people do illogical things. In her mind:

Crappy no where job.
No family
Marriage fell apart
Little positives for the future.

Check this, she had opportunities to possibly better her career, but decided against it. The second two, I wanted to work on, but I do not know how to do so. Her and her BF were laughing that I suggested that a book may help us. I then tried the retreat, nope. Got laughed at that as well. I was thinking a third marriage counselor, but she's not even pushing for it. It's very confusing and I do worry for her when she's on her own. She is not a person who likes to be alone with her own thoughts. They can be dark at times. She used to tell me some of her nightmares, they aren't rosy at all. All in all, she feels that she's in this life all by herself, which is untrue. I just do not know how to get her to see reason and reality. In addition, if I can get no assistance from her in bringing her to the light, there is little I can do. It's me vs her best friend (BF), parents and therapist. I asked for a meet with all, she said no chance.

It's like every move I make I hit a brick wall.


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## Almost-Done (Mar 5, 2016)

Mr The Other said:


> It does fit. She was unhappy and started living in an alternate reality. You have nailed it. What is hard to face up to is that her actions from this delusion will have severe consequences for her. She had taken to a fantasy world rather than get on with life. However, by helping protect her from those consequences, you are allowing her to remain deluded.
> 
> It does fit, but you have to allow her to live with the consequences of her actions.


I just worry that she'll think she has nothing to live for and hurt herself. I could never forgive myself if something like that happens. She's said several times, her life is worthless without a family and she has no point in being here.

I swear, she just keeps on digging herself deeper and deeper.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

You married someone who feels very entitled and time has perpetuated that. You both make the same amount of money and yet from the beginning you paid for everything because she decided that's how things should be? What was she doing with all her money that she wasn't using to help support the household while you were instead using yours to do that? That was obviously a considerable benefit for her -- let someone else support you while you save or spend or do whatever you please with your own money. 

If that's the case, then it sounds like to me there was a financial consideration in marrying you and she's realizing now that it's all on her. And maybe she's thinking you weren't so bad after all so you got hugs and kisses (aka manipulation by way of physical affection) when she picked up her stuff. 

Things didn't turn out like she planned. Her life's harder without you and she knows it now.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

What she does with her life -- good or bad -- is totally on her. That's another attempt at manipulation on her part and has nothing to do with you so don't buy into it.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

Almost-Done said:


> I just worry that she'll think she has nothing to live for and hurt herself. I could never forgive myself if something like that happens. She's said several times, her life is worthless without a family and she has no point in being here.
> 
> I swear, she just keeps on digging herself deeper and deeper.


I understand where you are coming from and the words seem so glib when typed. We want to ease the pain, but all you are doing is giving her a more comfortable spade to dig with. 

You cannot stop her digging the hole, but do not shelter her while she digs, do not bring her water and snacks while she digs. 

It is not, I suspect, a simple case of feeling entitled. It is a situation where her life seems useless, so she is throwing it all away. You have to let her do it. At the moment, she takes everything you do for her for granted. She can only come to appreciate what she has the hard way. 

At the moment, you are very attached to her happiness and cannot imagine being happy when she is miserable. Do you understand what I am saying here; you are being selfish. That is harsh, but if your happiness depends on her happiness, is that not your motive for wanting her to be happy? You know yourself that she has to go through this and find out the hard way, but it would make you miserable to see it. There is love in there too, but look hard. 

I am sorry for what you are going through.


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## Almost-Done (Mar 5, 2016)

You make some very true statements. I guess I am softer than I really feel I am. 

Just for disclosure though, she did give about $400.00 a month towards all expenses. Considerably less than if it would she would had to cover rent, utilities, food, cable, etc. on her own, but I just wanted to disclose that. Originally, we discussed we'd have a joint checking account and split everything down the middle, or close to it. She later said the agreement was that she moves in and I carry all the expenses. I said I never agreed to that. Since she moved in, everything went up significantly. When she moved out, I was saving a considerable amount of money on utilities, cable and food. So I know there was a considerable difference before and after she left. Not penny pinching, but after monthly expenses, I had a few hundred in reserves, she would have over 1500 +. I posted her estimated expenses in another thread a few weeks ago. 

As for where her expenses go, I really do not know. She doesn't show me her checking or credit card statements. She doesn't want me to police her spending, yet she asks questions about mine all the time. It was certainly an uneven arrangement.


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## Almost-Done (Mar 5, 2016)

Mr The Other said:


> I understand where you are coming from and the words seem so glib when typed. We want to ease the pain, but all you are doing is giving her a more comfortable spade to dig with.
> 
> You cannot stop her digging the hole, but do not shelter her while she digs, do not bring her water and snacks while she digs.
> 
> ...


I agree to some extend. My happiness doesn't really depend on her happiness. I feel much more freedom and relief since she left. I also have a very skewed view of marriage. My trust meter for other people is no longer giving people the benefit of the doubt. I feel these are partly due to the experiences in my marriage.

I just feel bad she's in the situation. I do not feel it's right or even possible for her to blame me, as I've tried just about everything I could think of to make her dreams a reality as well as have a marriage in perfect bliss. I do not handle failure very well. I consider this a failure, thus I tried really really hard to resurrect our marriage. I guess I cannot win them all.

All in all, I guess this is like a tough love situation. That doesn't mean it doesn't hurt watching her displaced and going through all of this unnecessary BS.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

Almost-Done said:


> I agree to some extend. My happiness doesn't really depend on her happiness. I feel much more freedom and relief since she left. I also have a very skewed view of marriage. My trust meter for other people is no longer giving people the benefit of the doubt. I feel these are partly due to the experiences in my marriage.
> 
> I just feel bad she's in the situation. I do not feel it's right or even possible for her to blame me, as I've tried just about everything I could think of to make her dreams a reality as well as have a marriage in perfect bliss. I do not handle failure very well. I consider this a failure, thus I tried really really hard to resurrect our marriage. I guess I cannot win them all.
> 
> All in all, I guess this is like a tough love situation. That doesn't mean it doesn't hurt watching her displaced and going through all of this unnecessary BS.


It is possible for her to blame you. I had a similar situation and I had a couple of posters (of the 'It's Always the Man's Fault' school) blame me. That fact that is that people will blame anyone if they cannot bear to accept fault.

It will hurt for two reasons. First, there is compassion. Secondly, your happiness is dependent on her happiness to a certain extent, which is a daft idea you have in your head, but entirely normal.

I am out of that marriage a couple of years. The first one was tough, the second is pretty damn cool (but there first one was really, really tough).


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## Almost-Done (Mar 5, 2016)

Mr The Other said:


> It is possible for her to blame you. I had a similar situation and I had a couple of posters (of the 'It's Always the Man's Fault' school) blame me. That fact that is that people will blame anyone if they cannot bear to accept fault.
> 
> It will hurt for two reasons. First, there is compassion. Secondly, your happiness is dependent on her happiness to a certain extent, which is a daft idea you have in your head, but entirely normal.
> 
> I am out of that marriage a couple of years. The first one was tough, the second is pretty damn cool (but there first one was really, really tough).


Yep, I agree. It always hurts to admit fault. I've admitted faults on my own, apologized, and try to move forward. No faults on her end, well, aside from marrying me it seems.

It hurts much worse than ending a non-marital relationship. I can just assure myself LTR in the future, yes, marriage, never again. The state of NY just makes things too complicated. At one time, marriage was a sacred vow that people take seriously (prob. before no-fault). Now, most people just do not care.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Almost-Done said:


> I cannot see me getting into another relationship anytime soon. Marriage I do not think would happen again either. People change during marriage. This has been pure hell, and this was from a woman who was always positive, bubbly and reassuring. She turned into a negative, mean, curse-laden, pessimistic worrywart over nonsense. Claims it was me, then smiles.


What's her mom like?


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

Almost-Done said:


> Tried to work on it, but it's just I get nothing from her in terms of what she's looking for. Before filing, she said she wants a family, as do I. I said we stopped trying because of you, not me. I cannot force you to have a baby. She said you really do not want any kids.  When we were engaged, I started to put 500 - 750 a month in a savings account to handle child care and any fertility issues. As of now, the purse is over 45k. What is she talking about? She just so lost in her own world of depression, I do not see how to get her out of it. What is making it worse is that her BF, Parents and therapist are egging her on. Doesn't any of them know there is another side? A coin has two sides, as does a story. Here's the difference, mine I can back it up with documented proof.
> 
> I do not want to work towards a resolution? Hmm, who's the one who refuses to allow me to go to her therapist? I mean she's did everything to sabotage any possibility of reconciliation. Yet, it's all my fault? Logically, that is not even possible. For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. Doesn't any of these brainiacs know this? How does such a happy, positive and bubbly (not stupid) person morph into what I have now?
> 
> Something just doesn't fit.


Some people do and always will sabatoge themselves no matter how hard you try and stop them. Right now you have to take much of what he says with a grain of salt. The child situation for instance, I was down this road and one of her first excuses. We didn't have kids and it was my fault. When I reminded her of the numerous surgeries for tumors and every doctor on the planet telling her to never get pregnant and if she did it would end "badly" etc etc well then she just started saying the same thing as yours. You never wanted kids anyway and I'll never forgive you for deceiving me. 

Was it my fault, no. Was it her fault no. This is part of life unfortunately. Your spouse just as mine needs to deflect responsibility. They can't hold themselves accountable, they need the fall guy to take the blame and carry the burdens for them. 

The excuses rarely make sense and once you get some distance you will see that most of what she says is all deflection and really meant she didn't want to talk about what's really going on. The more you try to apply logic to emotions the more sleepless nights you will give yourself.


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## Almost-Done (Mar 5, 2016)

turnera said:


> What's her mom like?


At first, she acted like a good MIL. Up until the VARs, I thought she was a saint. After the VARs, she's a fake. Cursing me off. Telling the daughter that she'll be fine when we're not in together any more, etc. I only had a VAR for a week, but it was so bad, I had to stop listening. Since then, I've refused to see her parents, and I started the separation process. I am surprised that these two brainiacs have not put two and two together. I was just amazed on the act she put on for the last few years. Hugged and pretended to care in one instance, and then when I am not there, just pure disgust and venom towards me. I know it's from what my wife says, but I still cannot believe the parents have not said, well what's his side. Or what did you do. Even my family asked that question. 

Everyone may find this funny. She's now in a rush to move out of her parents home. I asked why, she said she cannot live with them. They are too nosy, loud, and in her business. No honor among thieves I guess.


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## Almost-Done (Mar 5, 2016)

honcho said:


> Some people do and always will sabatoge themselves no matter how hard you try and stop them. Right now you have to take much of what he says with a grain of salt. The child situation for instance, I was down this road and one of her first excuses. We didn't have kids and it was my fault. When I reminded her of the numerous surgeries for tumors and every doctor on the planet telling her to never get pregnant and if she did it would end "badly" etc etc well then she just started saying the same thing as yours. You never wanted kids anyway and I'll never forgive you for deceiving me.
> 
> Was it my fault, no. Was it her fault no. This is part of life unfortunately. Your spouse just as mine needs to deflect responsibility. They can't hold themselves accountable, they need the fall guy to take the blame and carry the burdens for them.
> 
> The excuses rarely make sense and once you get some distance you will see that most of what she says is all deflection and really meant she didn't want to talk about what's really going on. The more you try to apply logic to emotions the more sleepless nights you will give yourself.


Wow. I am sorry you had to go through that. I thought something like what I am going through is a rarity. I have one better for you. She told me not too long ago that she still wants to have kids. I said, how are you going to go about this? She said she's going to buy some sperm and do everything herself. Yet, when we were on talking terms, she told me, she wanted kids, just wasn't sure if she wanted them with me. Talk about a blow to the heart. I feel like I've wasted time.

I do not have sleepless nights. Actually, my life is much more at peace now. Do I miss her, most definitely, but with a caveat. I miss the one I fell for. Even then, I was waiting for the ball to drop. I will agree, something didn't feel 100%, but I ignored it thinking it was just me second guessing myself. I guess, my gut was right. I never thought the marriage would breakdown this fast. Never.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Almost-Done said:


> I get what you are saying, but the question remains, then how does one get into a healthy equal relationship? I do not want to go into a consistant rollercoaster like this.


You can be in a healthy equal relationship if both sides are honest about their criteria and equally honest about their assessment. This rarely happens... Because emotional processing gets in the way.


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

Almost-Done said:


> Wow. I am sorry you had to go through that. I thought something like what I am going through is a rarity. I have one better for you. She told me not too long ago that she still wants to have kids. I said, how are you going to go about this? She said she's going to buy some sperm and do everything herself. Yet, when we were on talking terms, she told me, she wanted kids, just wasn't sure if she wanted them with me. Talk about a blow to the heart. I feel like I've wasted time.
> 
> I do not have sleepless nights. Actually, my life is much more at peace now. Do I miss her, most definitely, but with a caveat. I miss the one I fell for. Even then, I was waiting for the ball to drop. I will agree, something didn't feel 100%, but I ignored it thinking it was just me second guessing myself. I guess, my gut was right. I never thought the marriage would breakdown this fast. Never.


We hadn't talked about kids in almost 10 years as many of her medical problems came up very early in our marriage so the whole conversation took me so off guard. When she hit me with that I told her options could be researched, adoption could be an option. All she said then said I'd probably make a horrible father so why bother. They want something to complain about, not find a solution to an issue. 

Mine had come to the conclusion that I never wanted kids because a week earlier we were in a grocery store and some kid was screaming and I made some flippant comment about how I was glad we weren't dealing with that

When my ex bailed for Mr perfect he already had older children so I thought she ran off to play step mom. The funny part is over the years we babysat her nieces/nephews and she hated taking care of kids. She had no patience with them, she yelled constantly, it rarely was a pleasant experience. 

Less than a month before her meltdown my ex was professing her undying love for me, how she would be lost and I was the greatest thing in her life. Within a month she was living with another man and she filed for divorce. The wheels can come off just that fast.


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## Almost-Done (Mar 5, 2016)

john117 said:


> You can be in a healthy equal relationship if both sides are honest about their criteria and equally honest about their assessment. This rarely happens... Because emotional processing gets in the way.


All I asked for were simple things. There were no gotchas or unknowns. Though, she still throws at me that I didn't tell her my religion until the third date. I would reply stating if it was such a big deal, then why did you continue on with the relationship and subsequent marriage? She already had feelings she said at that point.  

Nothing makes sense.


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## Almost-Done (Mar 5, 2016)

honcho said:


> We hadn't talked about kids in almost 10 years as many of her medical problems came up very early in our marriage so the whole conversation took me so off guard. When she hit me with that I told her options could be researched, adoption could be an option. All she said then said I'd probably make a horrible father so why bother. They want something to complain about, not find a solution to an issue.
> 
> Mine had come to the conclusion that I never wanted kids because a week earlier we were in a grocery store and some kid was screaming and I made some flippant comment about how I was glad we weren't dealing with that
> 
> ...


Wow. Interesting how she turned it all around. Her stance doesn't seem to hold any water. What she did with you and the other guy would had drove me insane. It seems one day she was hot for you, the next she was cold. Maybe she's one of my STBXW's cousins??


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

Almost-Done said:


> I understand Mem, I can go step by step and write a dissertation on the relationship from start to finish include the good and bad from both of us; however, I do not think anyone would care to read it. Fact of the matter is/was, we were happier (in bliss) before marriage. She did pressure for marriage, and I caved as I wanted to make her happy. She was very happy until she moved in. She didn't like the change. I am not just talking about sex; while that got less and less as soon as she moved in. The point is she stopped trying in the relationship. Some people, I've read, just give up and let go after the knot is tied. I do not believe I've done that. Here's our week before marriage. Visit each other once or twice during the week. Usually, I went to her, as she was too tired to come to me. No problem. So I did that. Then we'd come over either place, again usually her's, and then go out to dinner, an event, etc one of those days. Also, spend a half a day (usually Saturday) with her parents. Again, no problem. Soon as she moved in... We discussed that we'd cook on the weekends for the meals for the week; like her parents do. Nope, that never happened. Why? We can't do that, as we're going to her parents each and every Saturday morning. Sunday, she's too tired from the five day week, so she just relaxes and watches TV. Guess who's cooking all the time, me. At first, she appreciated it, so I didn't mind. Then, no she complained about this or that. She asked to try a particular Mexican dish that I am quite good at, at least I am told. She didn't like it. No problem, it is not for every one. She then, in front of the entire family, said the meal was horrible. Everyone, including her side of her family, that that was pretty distasteful. I said, if you didn't like, no problem, you didn't have to state this in front of everyone. She smiled and said, sorry . I ask to go out with her, nope, too tired for me, but for her friends, no problem. She even bumped her parents on some Saturday's to go out the the girls. Me, I am stuck at the last minute, usually at home. I said, let's take a trip. With you she said? No thanks. Not interested. How about a play or a musical? No thanks. However, during the week, she'll sit in front of the TV and we'll watch something for two hours.
> 
> It's not like I have not tried. She loves Bruce Springsteen. I arranged, before this disaster, front row tickets and a meet and greet, she loved it. That faded fast. For V-D day 2015, I got tickets to a really hot show, front row. She didn't like the seats, so she made us move all the way up to the nosebleed seats. There was/is no way for me to please her. Maybe she doesn't love me any more, maybe she never really did. Yes, I will agree, I loved her more than she loved me. Everyone knew that. Well, except her. I would say your making me feel bad or upset? How is that possible? You have no feelings? I just walk away even more upset.
> 
> I know I tried, that much I do know. It is just not right.


This mirrored UG and I (we dated from early '13 to late '14). I did more of the cooking than she did.

I had more time and... I did not think she was skilled enough to turn my kitchen over to her. She commented once

on how my baked spaghetti was dry. No harm, no foul. She mentioned it to her D20 one day when

she was over. "You do know there's restaurants a few miles from here don't you?' 

Near the end... she was too tired to do anything... unless it involved her D20 or her family. Nothing wrong

with that but she let them dictate her life (D20 even told me that herself). Saturdays... D20 would come up with

her H and adopted child (relative's child) and "act like" they were moving in. I would do my own thing.... course

I get -why you not interacting- "Well every time they come up, they get into it... in front of the kid mind you...

and they pull you right into it. I don't do drama and I'm not too keen on it being brought to my home."

Most nights when they got ready to leave -oh it's late, just leave in the morning- I knew what was coming...

Instead of leaving around 9AM, drag their arse until about 1PM. By then... UG was dead tired chasing the kid

while... the two "lovebirds" got into it again. UG would be dead tired and nap until about 5PM.

Then wake up and ask me what I wanted to do.... "Something yesterday, last night and today... but you had

other plans." This went on for about six weeks.... until I told her it was over. Having family come up is 

great! But not every damn weekend and the whole weekend. "Seems to me you don't have time for 

a LTR...." UG did want to work things out but she thought showing up was all that was needed.

Watching her go hurt.... but it was for the best. Things she did at the end and after the split...

solidified me making the right decision. Oh... the sex. Decreased near the end.... one day she

asked me why I had not washed her car in awhile (always did in past.. never needed to be asked....guy thing)

"I stopped washing your car when you stopped "washing my flagpole." I went back to burning wood.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

Almost-Done said:


> I've suspected that for a while now. I came to my senses and feel she realized that I was just good enough to marry and have children. If it didn't work out, well, at least she'd have children. We earn the same amount of money, so I do not think it was a financial issue. I think it was a maternal time clock issue. Or, maybe not. If that were the case, how come she's avoided intimacy or other fertility methods? This is what I am trying to understand. It seems she's sabotaging herself on every turn she makes. Someone is steering her mind, I do not think it is her.
> 
> I also asked her point blank months ago do you find me attractive? Are you still interested in me sexually? She said yes, she just doesn't feel like sex with me nor anyone.
> 
> It's just very bazar to me.


I speak on UG being it was recent.... When we decided to have a LTR.... one of my non-negotiables was

kids. At the time she was 41. We tried .... anyway... I always help carry in bags from her car (guy thing)

I started unpacking one... prescription...looked funny.... it was birth control pills. No she never discussed this

with me. Didn't say anything for a couple days... this wasn't the main reason I ended things but it was in

the top 3. Seeing those pills.... was like a knife in the gut. Even if everything else was ok..... eventually

that action would have ended things... maybe just a bit later.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

Almost-Done said:


> I am not qualified to make that designation, and I do not think that. I just think she's really depressed about her life. She's still at her parents home. I still worry about her when she'll be on her own. Depressed people do illogical things. In her mind:
> 
> Crappy no where job.
> No family
> ...


Not sure if it has been asked but what was her LTR history like before you?

By her living in a fantasy land... she wants it to never end. The roles stay the same, just the actors change.

Chances are she will want you back but that will be temporary. She will soon be seeking a new leading man.

With my XW, I left a lifeline out... she never grabbed it. Can't force her... plus showed me who she really

had turned into. The first 4-6 years were awesome. Then downward... sound familiar?

The most disturbing thing about people today is they do not feel they should suffer the consequences of

their actions. Like a video game... they should just be able to hit "reset"


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

Openminded said:


> You married someone who feels very entitled and time has perpetuated that. You both make the same amount of money and yet from the beginning you paid for everything because she decided that's how things should be? What was she doing with all her money that she wasn't using to help support the household while you were instead using yours to do that? That was obviously a considerable benefit for her -- let someone else support you while you save or spend or do whatever you please with your own money.
> 
> If that's the case, then it sounds like to me there was a financial consideration in marrying you and she's realizing now that it's all on her. And maybe she's thinking you weren't so bad after all so you got hugs and kisses (aka manipulation by way of physical affection) when she picked up her stuff.
> 
> Things didn't turn out like she planned. Her life's harder without you and she knows it now.


And...... just maybe.... she is learning that the way she played you (financially) is the same way her 

BF is trying to play her. Now that would be karma with a capital K


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

Almost-Done said:


> You make some very true statements. I guess I am softer than I really feel I am.
> 
> Just for disclosure though, she did give about $400.00 a month towards all expenses. Considerably less than if it would she would had to cover rent, utilities, food, cable, etc. on her own, but I just wanted to disclose that. Originally, we discussed we'd have a joint checking account and split everything down the middle, or close to it. She later said the agreement was that she moves in and I carry all the expenses. I said I never agreed to that. Since she moved in, everything went up significantly. When she moved out, I was saving a considerable amount of money on utilities, cable and food. So I know there was a considerable difference before and after she left. Not penny pinching, but after monthly expenses, I had a few hundred in reserves, she would have over 1500 +. I posted her estimated expenses in another thread a few weeks ago.
> 
> As for where her expenses go, I really do not know. She doesn't show me her checking or credit card statements. She doesn't want me to police her spending, yet she asks questions about mine all the time. It was certainly an uneven arrangement.


There's a reason why she never allowed you access to hers...... and I bet you know what it is

Also reason she snooped on yours.... you already know why....


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

Almost-Done said:


> I agree to some extend. My happiness doesn't really depend on her happiness. I feel much more freedom and relief since she left. I also have a very skewed view of marriage. My trust meter for other people is no longer giving people the benefit of the doubt. I feel these are partly due to the experiences in my marriage.
> 
> I just feel bad she's in the situation. I do not feel it's right or even possible for her to blame me, as I've tried just about everything I could think of to make her dreams a reality as well as have a marriage in perfect bliss*. I do not handle failure very well*. *I consider this a failure*, thus I tried really really hard to resurrect our marriage. I guess I cannot win them all.
> 
> All in all, I guess this is like a tough love situation. That doesn't mean it doesn't hurt watching her displaced and going through all of this unnecessary BS.


Yep..... that's me. Holding yourself to a higher standard

That is what I thought..... for a brief time. You did not fail her.... SHE FAILED YOU... plain and simple.

You had her back.... she stabbed you in yours


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

Almost-Done said:


> At first, she acted like a good MIL. Up until the VARs, I thought she was a saint. After the VARs, she's a fake. Cursing me off. Telling the daughter that she'll be fine when we're not in together any more, etc. I only had a VAR for a week, but it was so bad, I had to stop listening. Since then, I've refused to see her parents, and I started the separation process. I am surprised that these two brainiacs have not put two and two together. I was just amazed on the act she put on for the last few years. Hugged and pretended to care in one instance, and then when I am not there, just pure disgust and venom towards me. I know it's from what my wife says, but I still cannot believe the parents have not said, well what's his side. Or what did you do. Even my family asked that question.
> 
> Everyone may find this funny. She's now in a rush to move out of her parents home. I asked why, she said she cannot live with them. They are too nosy, loud, and in her business. No honor among thieves I guess.


How was her parents relationship? As in who was HoH....


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

Almost-Done said:


> At first, she acted like a good MIL. Up until the VARs, I thought she was a saint. After the VARs, she's a fake. Cursing me off. Telling the daughter that she'll be fine when we're not in together any more, etc. I only had a VAR for a week, but it was so bad, I had to stop listening. Since then, I've refused to see her parents, and I started the separation process. I am surprised that these two brainiacs have not put two and two together. I was just amazed on the act she put on for the last few years. Hugged and pretended to care in one instance, and then when I am not there, just pure disgust and venom towards me. I know it's from what my wife says, but I still cannot believe the parents have not said, well what's his side. Or what did you do. Even my family asked that question.
> 
> Everyone may find this funny. She's now in a rush to move out of her parents home. I asked why, she said she cannot live with them. They are too nosy, loud, and in her business. No honor among thieves I guess.


You only had the var going for a week but your stbx has probably been setting up the "evil uncaring husband" storyline for months and that's pretty typical as the start to convince themselves this is what they want.

You now know how the MIL acts, your stbx is doin the exact same thing as this is learned behavior for her. This is her normal.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

The Walk Aways.... plan and plan the exit as a general would a troop movement. Yet time and time again,

they never take into account the spouse's response. Why? It does not fit into their delusion. If it is 

not "in their script" then it can't happen. We see how those plans blow up worse than a wet beer fart

at a Southern Baptist revival on a sultry Saturday afternoon.

BTW.... Check out Honcho's thread.... some crazy actions his XW made. Shocked me... and I used to talk to BSC peeps.


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## Almost-Done (Mar 5, 2016)

honcho said:


> You only had the var going for a week but your stbx has probably been setting up the "evil uncaring husband" storyline for months and that's pretty typical as the start to convince themselves this is what they want.
> 
> You now know how the MIL acts, your stbx is doin the exact same thing as this is learned behavior for her. This is her normal.


I couldn't take listening to it. It was just vile what she said about me, the MIL. Had to stop. I let a close friend listen to some. Even he said that what this person is saying about you is BS. The person has known me for 20 years. All of it is BS. I bent over backward to try and make her happy. As for the parents, well, I tried the same. For birthday's, holiday's parties, I made special deserts that they'd requested. Took me hours to make. For Christmas, I had requests for deserts and appetizers. The wife tells them it's all an act. An act? Why would someone spend 4 - 5 hours cooking and baking to put on an act? A bit much, no? Just disgusting. I know they were acting on the wife's drama, but they have to know their daughter is stretching the truth about a million miles.


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## Almost-Done (Mar 5, 2016)

Chuck71 said:


> The Walk Aways.... plan and plan the exit as a general would a troop movement. Yet time and time again,
> 
> they never take into account the spouse's response. Why? It does not fit into their delusion. If it is
> 
> ...


Chuck71, I am telling you. The stuff you posted on what you went through is rough. Sorry you had to experience that. Sometimes, I do not understand why anyone, man or woman, would put another person through this.


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## Almost-Done (Mar 5, 2016)

Chuck71 said:


> How was her parents relationship? As in who was HoH....


The wife told me the parents had a rocky relationship and were on the verge of divorce a few times. My opinion, they had a kid (her), and the father didn't want to get stuck with alimony and child support; thus he caved into the wife. I think the MIL is in charge, however, the wife tells me the father has quite a temper as well. Interestingly enough listen to this. So, when we got married, a few of their cousins couldn't or decided not to come to the wedding. The MIL and FIL cut them out of any further family events, and vice-versa. A few years later, the MIL got into an major argument with a neighbor they've known for nearly 45 years. They cut them off and no longer do anything with them. Looks what's happening to us. Same thing. Like parents, like child. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree. All of them lose control and go overboard.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

Like mother.... like daughter

Like father.... like son-in-law

See the pattern?


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## Almost-Done (Mar 5, 2016)

Chuck71 said:


> There's a reason why she never allowed you access to hers...... and I bet you know what it is
> 
> Also reason she snooped on yours.... you already know why....


At one time she did. About four months ago, she changed all of her passwords. Yet, mine are still the same. She claims I never gave them, but it's the same password for all accounts. 

Once the trust and respect are gone, I do not see it ever coming back.

Interestingly enough, she went dark for four days, and then e-mailed me today seeing how I was doing and what I was up too. Saying how she was so excited about my new gigs I have lined up. Four days ago when I told her, she wasn't that crazy about them. Why the change of heart? I swear, she's hot one minute, cold the other. I just answered with one or two works each e-mail, didn't bother to ask about her. It just hurts too much to think about what we may have had, or what our life together could had been.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

Almost-Done said:


> At one time she did. About four months ago, she changed all of her passwords. Yet, mine are still the same. She claims I never gave them, but it's the same password for all accounts.
> 
> Once the trust and respect are gone, I do not see it ever coming back.
> 
> Interestingly enough, she went dark for four days, and then e-mailed me today seeing how I was doing and what I was up too. Saying how she was so excited about my new gigs I have lined up. Four days ago when I told her, she wasn't that crazy about them. Why the change of heart? I swear, she's hot one minute, cold the other. I just answered with one or two works each e-mail, didn't bother to ask about her. It just hurts too much to think about what we may have had, or what our life together could had been.


Re-writing history....... sometimes even the author of it gets confused.....


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## Almost-Done (Mar 5, 2016)

Wish I had this:

https://www.facebook.com/VinDiesel/videos/10154293585308313/


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## Almost-Done (Mar 5, 2016)

Chuck71 said:


> Re-writing history....... sometimes even the author of it gets confused.....


Interestingly, she says this about me sometimes. I ask for more information on the statement, she then says, I'm not going to get into it with you. I say, if you are going to make a statement, then you need to back it up. Your state like that makes no sense and is uncalled for. She rolls her eyes.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Almost-Done said:


> Interestingly, she says this about me sometimes. I ask for more information on the statement, she then says, I'm not going to get into it with you. I say, if you are going to make a statement, then you need to back it up. Your state like that makes no sense and is uncalled for. She rolls her eyes.


Stop engaging. When she says tripe like that, shrug your shoulders and say:

"I see it differently."

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

Almost-Done said:


> Interestingly, she says this about me sometimes. I ask for more information on the statement, she then says, I'm not going to get into it with you. I say, if you are going to make a statement, then you need to back it up. Your state like that makes no sense and is uncalled for. She rolls her eyes.


Keep a diary of **** that is discussed. It is not for her, but for you. Generally, it is the sane one who questions their sanity.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

farsidejunky said:


> Stop engaging. When she says tripe like that, shrug your shoulders and say:
> 
> "I see it differently."
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


He is right..... I do use a different method pop taught me.... IDGAF


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

Almost-Done said:


> Interestingly, she says this about me sometimes. I ask for more information on the statement, she then says, I'm not going to get into it with you. I say, if you are going to make a statement, then you need to back it up. Your state like that makes no sense and is uncalled for. She rolls her eyes.


Part of the rewriting of history you will notice is everything is stated in generalities. For them complaining to friends and family they don't need details because the people hearing the story weren't there. 

When pressed for details they either change the subject, make a flippant statement to shut down the conversation or they pick some miniscule detail from a past event and blow it way out of proportion.

The less you engage in these conversations the better off you will be. Walk away spouses often need to convince themselves that good times were bad and the more they talk the more they convince themselves. It's also pointless because she isn't listening to you or your side. She doesn't want discussion.


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## Almost-Done (Mar 5, 2016)

honcho said:


> Part of the rewriting of history you will notice is everything is stated in generalities. For them complaining to friends and family they don't need details because the people hearing the story weren't there.
> 
> When pressed for details they either change the subject, make a flippant statement to shut down the conversation or they pick some miniscule detail from a past event and blow it way out of proportion.
> 
> The less you engage in these conversations the better off you will be. Walk away spouses often need to convince themselves that good times were bad and the more they talk the more they convince themselves. It's also pointless because she isn't listening to you or your side. She doesn't want discussion.


I can certainly see this from her. I guess it's a defense mechanism or something in her way of thinking. Would be nice to get a reboot.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

> Maybe someone else can tell me what I am missing here. She's kissed me more times on Sunday than she has in the last six months. I am so lost...


*Almost*, just 30 minutes after you started this thread, @*Farsidejunky *suspected that what is _"missing here"_ is your ability to recognize the warning signs for BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). That's why *Farside* signaled me by putting my name in post #3 above. He knows I lived with a BPDer exW for 15 years. I therefore have been following your thread for three weeks. Until now, however, I've not seen you mention a sufficient number of BPD traits to warrant bringing this possibility to your attention.



> I just want to know what in the world happened. That is all.


The behaviors you describe -- i.e., irrational anger, very controlling behavior, inability to trust, temper tantrums, lack of impulse control, periods of low empathy, always being "The Victim," and a rapid flip between Jekyll (adoring you) to Hyde (devaluing you) -- are some of the classic warning signs for BPD. Importantly, I'm not suggesting your STBXW has full-blown BPD but, rather, that she may exhibit moderate to strong traits of it.

I caution that BPD is not something a person "has" or "doesn't have" because every adult on the planet occasionally exhibits all BPD traits to some degree (albeit at a low level if the person is healthy). At issue, then, is not whether your STBXW exhibits BPD traits. Of course she does. We all do. 

Rather, at issue is whether she exhibits those traits at a strong and persistent level (i.e., is on the upper end of the BPD spectrum). Not having met her, I cannot answer that question. Yet, as *Farside* does, I believe you can spot any strong BPD warning signs that are present if you take a little time to learn which behaviors are on the list. They are not difficult to spot because there is nothing subtle about behaviors such as always being "The Victim," lack of impulse control, childishness, and temper tantrums.



> She's about as independent as a 2 year old child....


If your STBXW exhibits strong and persistent BPD traits, this statement likely is far closer to reality than you imagine. BPDers (i.e., those exhibiting such strong traits) typically have the emotional development of a 3 or 4 year old. This is why they lack the emotional skills to manage their own emotions and why they lack a strong sense of self identity.



> She wasn't like this until she moved in and we got married.... When we were dating and engaged, she was wonderful. I just do not understand the transformation into this she-devil.


If your STBXW has strong traits of narcissism or sociopathy, you were simply tricked by her deceptions. If she is a BPDer, however, that is unlikely. During the courtship period, a BPDer is so infatuated with you that she is convinced you are the nearly perfect man who has come to rescue her from unhappiness and provide the self identity she sorely needs. In that way, her infatuation holds her two fears (abandonment and engulfment) at bay. This is why, during the courtship, BPDers typically are very passionate and genuinely love the sexual intimacy.



> When we were engaged, sex got less and less.


With BPDers, it is common for sex to go off a cliff right after the wedding day, if not before. The reason is that, as soon as her infatuation starts to evaporate, her two fears return. Significantly, one of these fears is "engulfment," i.e., the suffocating feeling of being controlled and taken over by your partner. Because a BPDer has a weak, fragile sense of self, she is strongly attracted to a man having a strong personality -- who thus is able to provide the stability, grounding, and sense of direction one gets from having a strong self identity. 

Yet, as soon as you provide EXACTLY THAT to a BPDer, she will quickly start feeling engulfed and controlled by you. Her ego is so weak that, during intimacy, she quickly starts feeling like she is evaporating into thin air -- losing herself into your strong personality.

This is why a BPDer typically starts the very WORST fights immediately after (or during) the very BEST of times -- e.g., right after an intimate evening or great weekend spent together -- or in the middle of a wonderful expensive vacation. Although BPDers crave intimacy like nearly every other adult, they cannot tolerate it for very long.



Almost-Done said:


> I am trying to figure out how everything fell apart. Nothing makes any sense.... Was it all fake?


Again, if she exhibits strong narcissim or sociopathy, it almost certainly was _"all fake"_ and she never really loved you. If she exhibits strong BPD traits, however, she likely did truly love you -- albeit in the very immature way that young children are able to love. Sadly, that type of love falls far short of the mature love that is required to sustain a marriage or other close LTR with another adult. 



> I consider this a failure, thus I tried really really hard to resurrect our marriage.


If your STBXW really is a BPDer, you never failed at a husband-wife relationship. You never had such a relationship. Instead, you had a parent-child relationship. Moreover, you had such a relationship with an adult woman having so little self awareness that she has no desire to fix herself and grow up emotionally.



> Having no trust for me for no reason.


If she is a BPDer, her inability to trust is to be expected. Because BPDers have weak self identities and are unable to regulate their own emotions, they know they cannot trust THEMSELVES. Until they learn how to do that, they cannot trust anyone else. 

The result is that a BPDer wife typically will administer sh!t tests to see if her H is trustworthy at this moment in time. Passing one of these tests accomplishes nothing because the BPDer is incapable of trusting you a few days -- or a few hours -- later. Hence, passing one test only means she will raise the hoop higher the next time she challenges you to jump through it.



> Making up things to tell your best friend and Mom/Dad about me which are not even true, but you, for some weird reason think they are.


Smart observation. If she is a BPDer, she likely believes most of the absurd allegations coming out of her mouth. And, a week later when she is claiming the exact opposite, she likely will believe that nonsense too. BPDers frequently experience very intense feelings due to their inability to regulate their own emotions. These feelings are so intense that they distort the BPDer's perception of other peoples' intentions and motivations. This is why BPD is said to be a "thought distortion."



> Not caring at all about my needs.


BPDers can be very caring individuals. Their problem is not being unable to care. Rather, it is being unable to care _consistently_. They are so emotionally immature that they rely heavily on "black-white thinking," wherein they categorize everyone as "all good" (white) or "all bad" (black). When a BPDer is perceiving of you as "all good" (i.e., "splitting you white"), she likely will exhibit very caring behavior. If you make the mistake of trying to establish a close LTR with her, however, you will start triggering her two great fears: abandonment and engulfment. Once her infatuation evaporates, she will start splitting you black. During these times, she will not be caring or empathetic.



> Maybe down the line she'll appreciate what she had.... I doubt it though.


If she is a BPDer, you are correct. It will be impossible for you to build up a store of appreciation that later can be drawn on during the hard times. With BPDers, trying to build up a store of good will is as foolish as trying to build a lasting sandcastle beside the sea. It will all be washed aside by the next wave of intense feelings flooding her mind. This is why, with BPDers, it's always "What have you done for me lately?"



> Took me hours to make. For Christmas, I had requests for deserts and appetizers. The wife tells them it's all an act.


Like I said, if she is a BPDer, it's always "What have you done for me lately?" You will be lucky if the appreciation lasts a few days or a few hours.



> People say she realy didn't change, you just stsrted to open up your eyes and finally saw you received a raw deal.


If she is a BPDer, they likely are correct about her not changing. They likely are mistaken, however, about you having your eyes closed. As I noted above, a BPDer typically is being herself both during the courtship and after the wedding. What changes is the fading of infatuation -- an experience that eventually occurs with every lover on the planet at some point. With BPDers, however, the passing of infatuation allows their fears to return, at which point you cannot avoid triggering her two fears.

The reason you "cannot avoid" triggering them is that the two fears lie at the opposite ends of the very same spectrum. This means that, as you back away from her to avoid triggering her engulfment fear, you necessarily are drawing closer to triggering her abandonment fear. Sadly, there is no midpoints position (between "too close" and "too far away") where you can safely stand. I know because I wasted 15 years hunting for that Goldilocks position, which simply does not exist.



> When the choices of being miserable marriage or no marriage at all, she'd rather be in the miserable marriage.... She is not a person who likes to be alone with her own thoughts.


Because BPDers have very little sense of who they really are, they don't even have a "self" to keep themselves company when they are alone. BPDers therefore absolutely HATE to be alone. They need someone to provide the missing self identity. And they need someone to blame for every misfortune so they can get frequent "validation" of their false self image of being "The Victim," always "The Victim." This is why it is common for BPDers to remain in toxic marriages for many years even though they are miserable. And this is why the #2 best-selling BPD book is titled *I Hate You, Don't Leave Me!
*


> I just worry that she'll think she has nothing to live for and hurt herself.... She's said several times her life is worthless without a family and she has no point in being here.


If she is a BPDer, she has very low self esteem, has great shame and self loathing, and has a weak self identity. It therefore is not surprising that "self harm" (and threats of self harm) is one of the nine defining traits for BPD.



> She feels that she's in this life all by herself, which is untrue.


Yes, but the feeling itself is very real. If she is a BPDer, her perception of reality is whatever intense feeling she is experiencing AT THIS VERY MOMENT. Like a young child, a BPDer is too immature to intellectually challenge the truth of her intense feelings. Instead, a BPDer figures that any feeling that intense MUST be true. BPDers therefore regard strong feelings as self-evident truths and, if you insist, they will come up with some absurd explanation of why that is so. 

When challenged with irrefutable proof, they usually will abandon that explanation and quickly replace it with another one just as absurd. And, if you are foolish enough to disprove that explanation, a BPDer will immediately replace it with the very first explanation -- acting as though it had never been discussed in the first place. In this way, BPDer arguments tend to loop back on themselves, being circular. Of course, this also is the way young children argue.



> I swear, she just keeps on digging herself deeper and deeper.


If she is a BPDer, she is not trying to make herself more miserable. Rather, her problem is that -- absent years of intensive therapy -- she will be miserable _no matter what choice she makes_. As I noted above, a BPDer is miserable when she is alone -- because she has little self identity and thus nothing to ground her. Yet, when she draws close to someone, her two great fears -- that of abandonment and engulfment -- will start to be triggered. She therefore will be miserable living with a loved one. This is a sad predicament I would not wish on my worst enemy.



> She doesn't show me her checking or credit card statements. She doesn't want me to police her spending, yet she asks questions about mine all the time.


If she has strong BPD traits, it is impossible for you to have a calm, reasoned discussion on any spending decisions without her feeling you are trying to control her. My exW, for example, felt I was controlling her when giving her a surprise gift because I was the one who picked it out. Yet, when I started buying gifts she had already approved beforehand, she still felt controlled because I was the one who decided when to get them. When I gave her a generous monthly budget of "mad money" for fun purchases, she resented me for setting a limit on the budget. 

Indeed, I found that it was absolutely impossible for her to NOT FEEL CONTROLLED unless she bought her own gift -- and picked something she knew I would not like. I quickly learned that, if she liked a piece of furniture for our home, it was the kiss of death for me to say I liked it too. In that event, she could not be sure "she" was the one picking it out. Her solution to this dilemma was to pick something she knew I would not like because it was the wrong size or did not match anything else in our home. 

For example, we once drove six hours out of state to buy an arm chair. She decided beforehand that it had to be a high-back "wing" chair, i.e., the kind that are so vertical and hard that nobody wants to sit in them. I said "fine," which was the kiss of death for that type of chair. So, by the time we were shopping, she switched her preference to the absolute opposite: a soft, feminine, overstuffed arm chair with matching ottoman. Although it was very expensive, I said "excellent choice." So that killed off this idea too. 

She then said she was in love with a pink-colored soft chair. When I objected that it didn't match any of the several colors in our living room, she insisted that the pink fabric was really "yellow." Never mind that two other customers on the showroom floor agreed with me that it was pink. The result is that we drove six hours back home without any chair at all. 



> Please tell me what I did wrong.... I honestly want to learn so I can attempt to avoid this again in the future.


Learning to spot BPD warning signs will not enable you to diagnose your STBXW's issues. Yet, like learning warning signs for stroke and heart attack, learning those for BPD may help you avoid a very painful situation -- e.g., avoid taking her back or avoid running into the arms of another woman just like her. 

I therefore recommend you see a psychologist -- for a visit or two all by yourself -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is that you have been dealing with. I also suggest that, while you're looking for a good psych, you read about BPD warning signs to see if they seem to apply.

An easy place to start reading is my list of _*18 BPD Warning Signs*_. If most sound very familiar, I would suggest you also read my more detailed description of them at my posts in _*Maybe's Thread*_. If that description rings any bells, I would be glad to join the other respondents in discussing them with you. Take care, *Almost*.


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## Chills22 (May 12, 2016)

Wow. That was very informative. I am now wondering if my stbxw has BPD.


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## Almost-Done (Mar 5, 2016)

Uptown said:


> *Almost*, just 30 minutes after you started this thread, @*Farsidejunky *suspected that what is _"missing here"_ is your ability to recognize the warning signs for BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). That's why *Farside* signaled me by putting my name in post #3 above. He knows I lived with a BPDer exW for 15 years. I therefore have been following your thread for three weeks. Until now, however, I've not seen you mention a sufficient number of BPD traits to warrant bringing this possibility to your attention.
> 
> The behaviors you describe -- i.e., irrational anger, very controlling behavior, inability to trust, temper tantrums, lack of impulse control, periods of low empathy, always being "The Victim," and a rapid flip between Jekyll (adoring you) to Hyde (devaluing you) -- are some of the classic warning signs for BPD. Importantly, I'm not suggesting your STBXW has full-blown BPD but, rather, that she may exhibit moderate to strong traits of it.
> 
> ...



Hello Uptown, 

Thank you for the very detailed response, I greatly appreciate it. It seems you've done your homework on this BPD. I looked over your traits, and she definitely has the following: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 9, 10, 18. She's very confused about her life, her goals and her dreams. I've always found it interesting that she's not had a positive dream about us. Most of her dreams are very dark and she's trying to escape something in her way, but cannot. She would be restless and scream at me when I ask what's wrong. JUST LEAVE ME ALONE! I wanted her to go to a sleep clinic, which I offered to pay for, she said she doesn't have a sleep problem. She can't sleep at night, and she's been up two or three days straight, but doesn't have a sleep problem (this is month's now - on and off). She told her parents this, and they cursed me out like crazy, saying I am the one with the problem. I sleep fine. I do not know. She needs help, and her parents are not giving it, nor is this PHD.

It would be nice to know her game. What's her plan. It's upsetting on so many levels. It still hurts, but I will be okay. I, again, worry about her. I feel that I could had done something else, but what else could I had done? She wouldn't talk! Or, she'd say all is good, but complain to her best friend, mom, dad, etc. Just a very weird situation.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

Childhood trauma... be it physical, emotional, psychological is more often ran from when people get older.

The age they ran from / hid from... that portion of their being is stunted.

They can fake it not happening or bothering them until.... something triggers this childhood trauma. 

They act now... as they did when they were seven.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Almost-Done said:


> She definitely has the following: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 9, 10, 18.


*Almost*, you may want to reconsider #15, which you left off your list. It is the trait of having _"little ability to do self soothing."_ If your STBXW is a BPDer, she almost certainly lacks the emotional skills -- which the rest of us learned in childhood -- of regulating her own emotions. Indeed, this is the key defining trait for BPD. It is so central to this pattern of behaviors that a large segment of the psychiatric community has been lobbying for two decades to change the name of this disorder to "Emotional Regulation Disorder."

I call your attention to trait #15 because it would explain your STBXW's inability to go to sleep several days in a row. Similarly, my exW sometimes would be up till early in the morning due to her inability to calm herself down after we had an argument. In contrast, I would be asleep in 15 minutes of lying down.

This inability to self-regulate one's own emotions also exhibits itself in the BPDer's usual insistence on settling a problem NOW, right this very moment. That is, she will be very resistant to the notion of taking time to cool off and think rationally about the issue. The reason is that a BPDer knows it will be hours before she "cools off," given her inability to calm herself down. Generally, BPDers lack the emotional skills of self calming by diverting one's thinking, avoiding black-white thinking, and intellectually challenging an intense feeling instead of accepting it as reflecting reality. 



> She's very confused about her life, her goals and her dreams.


That is to be expected if she is a BPDer. Having only a fragile unstable self identity, a BPDer lacks the strong sense of self that is necessary in order to have stable goals. I therefore suggest that you also reconsider the relevance of trait #14, which is "Relying on you to center and ground her, giving her a sense of direction because her goals otherwise keep changing every few months." 

Granted, a BPDer will not rely on you for a sense of direction while she is splitting you black -- as your STBXW apparently is doing now. During the good times, however, a BPDer typically relies on her mate for a sense of identity and direction. This is not to say, however, she will do it consistently. Because BPDers are unstable, they don't do anything consistently.



> She wouldn't talk!


The vast majority of BPDers are "talkers" and thus act out strongly with lots of verbal abuse when their fears are triggered. A small share of them, however, generally don't do that (although they sometimes will). Instead, they use icy silence, passive-aggressive behavior, and withdrawal to punish the loved one who they are angry at. They are commonly called "quiet borderlines" or "waif BPDers."

I have found two articles about BPDers who usually (but not always) show their anger in passive aggressive ways. You might find them insightful. One is A.J. Mahari's blog article at The Quiet Acting In Borderline and The Silent Treatment. The second is Shari Schreiber's blog article at Borderline Waifs: Rescuing The Woman Who Doesn't Want To Be Saved. Generally, I rarely cite Schreiber's many articles because she confuses BPDers with narcissists and sociopaths, thus failing to recognize important differences. Yet, because it is difficult to find any online articles about the quiet BPDers, I do find this article useful.



> It would be nice to know her game. What's her plan?


If she is a BPDer, it doesn't much matter what her plan is -- because it will soon change. BPDers are very controlling and sometimes try to be manipulating. Generally, however, they are not very good at manipulation. To be successful, it requires careful planning and flawless execution. In contrast, BPDers tend to be very reactive to whatever feelings they are experiencing at this very moment. They therefore tend to abandon their plans, assuming they ever took the time to make a plan to begin with. Instead, they tend to be opportunists who take advantage of a situation that has presented itself.



> What else could I had done?


If she is a BPDer, there is nothing you can do to fix it. She is the only one who can decide whether she wants to spend the time and energy learning the emotional-regulation skills she never acquired in childhood. Hence, if you are an excessive caregiver like me, standing by helplessly is going to be very painful. 

It feels like you're watching her slowly drown just five feet from a boat dock you're standing on. Although you plead for her to take your hand so you can pull her to safety, she refuses to grab it. The reason is not that she cannot see your outstretched arm. It is not that she cannot hear your pleas. Rather, it is that she is simply incapable of trusting you.


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## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

blueinbr said:


> I have no advice. If I understood women, I would not need to be here at TAM.
> 
> I just was curious if you got a dog yet?


Same here. In my 40s, I finally just concluded that I don't understand how women think, and that I never will. I give up. I admit, I have no clue. I may know a lot of other things at my age, but not that. I don't mean any sarcasm or disrespect in that either; I just don't, and I admit it.


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

Chuck71 said:


> Childhood trauma... be it physical, emotional, psychological is more often ran from when people get older.
> 
> The age they ran from / hid from... that portion of their being is stunted.
> 
> ...


When my crazy ex's father became very ill with his alzheimers i often though that was the trigger that pushed her over the edge. I know something happened in her childhood but what it was was never spoken. I know protective services were involved back in a day and age where nobody heard of that department. 

Almost a great many bpd have secondary mental health issues such as major depression which could account for her not sleeping. Often the secondary issue gets diagnosed first but too often it stops there and they never get to the bigger issue.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

honcho said:


> When my crazy ex's father became very ill with his alzheimers i often though that was the trigger that pushed her over the edge. I know something happened in her childhood but what it was was never spoken. I know protective services were involved back in a day and age where nobody heard of that department.
> 
> Almost a great many bpd have secondary mental health issues such as major depression which could account for her not sleeping. Often the secondary issue gets diagnosed first but too often it stops there and they never get to the bigger issue.


When I grew up... the family / neighbors policed their own.... and to be honest, did a pretty good job.

If I showed my arse, neighbor's mom would tan my arse. Then call my mom if I gave lip.

Then... if I gave mom lip.... "WTYFGH" which meant you won't sit for awhile. 

My XW... youngest of five, dad wasn't around during her formative years, called her a wh0re for 

getting her hair cut at 12 (told me this about 20 years later, said it didn't bother her... big lie, knew it then).

After her parents D, they still "got together" semi-often. As a young female, her view of family dynamics

were all screwed up. She was close to her mom, she would bail XW out of $ jams. I bailed her out once,

returned debt amount in a year... "that's your problem this time." When her mom died... large part of

her did too. This lead to animal attachment disorder. She thought, "They love me no matter what...."

Childhood issues were never addressed. I would ask her about them years after we were M, completely 

avoided them. "She was walking on one leg already," so when her mom was gone.... 

Sometimes I wonder how we made it as long as we did. Even the last few years... we had plenty of "gotcha"

moments. They just weren't the amount they were ten years prior.

She was depressed after her mom's death but wouldn't say much to me (no pressure, here when you want

to talk), wouldn't talk to her BFF (granted her friend was a notorious blabbermouth, her words),

her one sane brother was in the 'pokey' and I even tried to get her to talk to my mom (mom lost her 

mom 20 years prior, female connection). NADA.

She didn't believe in IC, or MC for that matter. Guess she figured her rationale was better than

any one else's. How'd that work out for her...... Sad but not my problem since 2013.


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## Almost-Done (Mar 5, 2016)

Chuck71 said:


> Childhood trauma... be it physical, emotional, psychological is more often ran from when people get older.
> 
> The age they ran from / hid from... that portion of their being is stunted.
> 
> ...


Very possible, but she seemed to have a normal childhood, from what I was told. Then again, who knows. I guess the old saying is true, if you think long and hard from something to become a reality, perhaps it can happen in one's own mind.


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## Almost-Done (Mar 5, 2016)

Uptown said:


> *Almost*, you may want to reconsider #15, which you left off your list. It is the trait of having _"little ability to do self soothing."_ If your STBXW is a BPDer, she almost certainly lacks the emotional skills -- which the rest of us learned in childhood -- of regulating her own emotions. Indeed, this is the key defining trait for BPD. It is so central to this pattern of behaviors that a large segment of the psychiatric community has been lobbying for two decades to change the name of this disorder to "Emotional Regulation Disorder."
> 
> I call your attention to trait #15 because it would explain your STBXW's inability to go to sleep several days in a row. Similarly, my exW sometimes would be up till early in the morning due to her inability to calm herself down after we had an argument. In contrast, I would be asleep in 15 minutes of lying down.
> 
> ...





I can say, she has empathy for others, just not me. She did at one time, however, I just think that has churned into anger, resentment and disappointment towards me. She has emotions for some things, lacks it for others. Or, again, it might just be anything to do with me. Yes, she has had issues with calming down and unwinding. Or she would sleep, but wake up every hour or two. Thus, being exhausted each and every day. She says she's fine now to others, so maybe it was just me. Maybe I gave her the push she needed to get life in order. 

Yes, she would need a couple of hours to cool off. Or, if it is/was a really bad argument, she'd be silent to me for days. I think one time, she was silent to me for nearly a week on some non important issue.

She can talk to her BF, Mom, and text for hours on end. I recall many days, she'd come home from visiting her parents, wouldn't say boo to me, but pickup the phone and call her mom and speak for another hour or two. It's mind boggling. I walk in, she wouldn't even bat an eye or maybe give me a wave. 

I've tried to get therapists for us/her, no luck. The last one, as I've stated before, she actually called the therapist and said she didn't want me to be with her at the session. I was told to find two more therapists. One for me, one for us. So, all in all, three therapists. I got one for myself. At least mine doesn't attack her. She actually agrees with a lot of what has been said in this thread. Her therapist, which I found at her request, attacks me left and right. At least that is what I heard from the wife. Who knows.

I asked her to also see a family doc to discuss her problems, she said I am fine. I am not crazy or psycho. No one said you are, but you are depressed. They can give you something for that. I WILL NOT TAKE ANY MEDS!!! Okay. 



> It feels like you're watching her slowly drown just five feet from a boat dock you're standing on. Although you plead for her to take your hand so you can pull her to safety, she refuses to grab it. The reason is not that she cannot see your outstretched arm. It is not that she cannot hear your pleas. Rather, it is that she is simply incapable of trusting you.


Yes, I can agree also with your last statement 100%. I tried to stick it out to see if things were going to get better, they were getting worse. I seriously didn't see any benefit for us to stay together in our present form. Ironically, out of the blue, I've not heard from her in over two weeks. It's just a shame. She was not like this when I met her. She was a strong independent woman who was happy and full of life. I just do not know what happened. It's a complete 180 in her personality.


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## ReturntoZero (Aug 31, 2015)

Almost-Done said:


> I can say, she has empathy for others, just not me.



Does she have empathy for other peers/adults? People she actually knows? Empathy for anyone that has even the remote chance of being able to hurt her?


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

She wanted to see her own therapist without you so she could tell her versions without a differing point of view or even facts. 

The only real way therapy works is if someone wants things to be different and change. Most go only to reinforce what they want. 

My crazy ex finally started therapy about 4 months after she left, at first I had hope that she may be getting help. The therapist sent paperwork to the court diagnosing her with ptsd, major depression syndrome something else too I don't remember anymore but all these diagnosis were based on wild stories. The therapist put many examples of my "brutal" behavior in the paperwork all of which were pure fantasy.

They often go to therapy but just long enough to play the victim role and usually once a therapist starts to dig deeper they quit and go to another and start the cycle again.


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## Almost-Done (Mar 5, 2016)

ReturntoZero said:


> Does she have empathy for other peers/adults? People she actually knows? Empathy for anyone that has even the remote chance of being able to hurt her?


Sometimes. I know a close friend of her's has a very sick baby in the hospital. She's seems very concerned about the baby. When her dad was in the hospital, she stood by his side for days on end due to a heart attack. However, the dad is back to bad food habits and I've told the wife to speak to him about it, she says she has, but doesn't want to push. Certainly a strange reaction to my question. It seemed I was more concerned about him than she was.


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## Almost-Done (Mar 5, 2016)

honcho said:


> She wanted to see her own therapist without you so she could tell her versions without a differing point of view or even facts.
> 
> The only real way therapy works is if someone wants things to be different and change. Most go only to reinforce what they want.
> 
> ...


Yes, I agree. She wouldn't let me go to the first two and the last one. I do not understand how she expected us to get better if she blocked me to come to her sessions. Again, very weird. I do recall she stating that she was in therapy for a while after her first divorce ended. Again, this was told to me within the last year of our relationship. She only tells me what she wants me to know. I tell her just about everything about me, but she claims I do not.  It's like I need solid proof to get her to believe me when she's never had a reason not too. Oh, to only be a neuron within her brain. Maybe then I'd understand what the heck is going on in there.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

ReturntoZero said:


> Does she have empathy for other peers/adults? People she actually knows? Empathy for anyone that has even the remote chance of being able to hurt her?


She sounds a lot like a vet TAMmer Zillard's XW. 

Check out his thread if you get a chance.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

Almost-Done said:


> Yes, I agree. She wouldn't let me go to the first two and the last one. I do not understand how she expected us to get better if she blocked me to come to her sessions. Again, very weird. I do recall she stating that she was in therapy for a while after her first divorce ended. Again, this was told to me within the last year of our relationship. She only tells me what she wants me to know. I tell her just about everything about me, but she claims I do not.  It's like I need solid proof to get her to believe me when she's never had a reason not too. Oh, to only be a neuron within her brain. Maybe then I'd understand what the heck is going on in there.


When you tell a spouse about your past and the other does not believe you.... that is THEIR 

problem. You're both adults.... you shouldn't have to "prove it" .... that is elementary school BS.

If you have lied numerous times in the past.... that is a valid reason but if you hadn't ....

just "victim chair speak."

Question... while M, if she was sick, minor injury, busting migraine... she would try to "tough it out,"

yet when her family or friends had these, she was the first one to run to the phone to give advice, tips

on what to do.....


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## ReturntoZero (Aug 31, 2015)

Almost-Done said:


> Yes, I agree. She wouldn't let me go to the first two and the last one. I do not understand how she expected us to get better if she blocked me to come to her sessions. Again, very weird. I do recall she stating that she was in therapy for a while after her first divorce ended. Again, this was told to me within the last year of our relationship. She only tells me what she wants me to know. I tell her just about everything about me, but she claims I do not.  It's like I need solid proof to get her to believe me when she's never had a reason not too. Oh, to only be a neuron within her brain. Maybe then I'd understand what the heck is going on in there.


Sounds like you're making an effort to convince her of something.


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## Almost-Done (Mar 5, 2016)

ReturntoZero said:


> Sounds like you're making an effort to convince her of something.


Not sure I follow. It was supposed to be marriage counseling, she turned into individual counseling. How am I trying to convince her of anything? If you want help to solve our problems from an independent third party, but you refuse to let the spouse come, even though that was the original agreement, how are we supposed to gain clarity within our relationship?


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

Almost-Done said:


> Not sure I follow. It was supposed to be marriage counseling, she turned into individual counseling. How am I trying to convince her of anything? If you want help to solve our problems from an independent third party, but you refuse to let the spouse come, even though that was the original agreement, how are we supposed to gain clarity within our relationship?


FWIW, I was confused as well. I thought you were upset that she wasn't allowing you to her IC sessions. I didn't understand that the therapy was supposed to be marriage counseling that she wouldn't let you attend.


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## Almost-Done (Mar 5, 2016)

CynthiaDe said:


> FWIW, I was confused as well. I thought you were upset that she wasn't allowing you to her IC sessions. I didn't understand that the therapy was supposed to be marriage counseling that she wouldn't let you attend.


Sorry, thought I posted that.


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## ReturntoZero (Aug 31, 2015)

Almost-Done said:


> Sorry, thought I posted that.


Thanks - that provides some clarity.

How exactly is she preventing you from attending?


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## Almost-Done (Mar 5, 2016)

ReturntoZero said:


> Thanks - that provides some clarity.
> 
> How exactly is she preventing you from attending?


As agreed, I called the therapist and said I would like to come to the sessions with my wife. The therapist said it's up to your wife. Wife initially said okay, then told the therapist no, I couldn't come. Therapist called me back and said the wife said you cannot join in the sessions.


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## ReturntoZero (Aug 31, 2015)

Almost-Done said:


> As agreed, I called the therapist and said I would like to come to the sessions with my wife. The therapist said it's up to your wife. Wife initially said okay, then told the therapist no, I couldn't come. Therapist called me back and said the wife said you cannot join in the sessions.


Then act like a leader, schedule a joint session with a new therapist and tell her what day and time to show up.


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## Almost-Done (Mar 5, 2016)

ReturntoZero said:


> Then act like a leader, schedule a joint session with a new therapist and tell her what day and time to show up.


Did this four times already. She will not go to another therapist. She's sticking with this one.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

Almost-Done said:


> Did this four times already. She will not go to another therapist. She's sticking with this one.


Usually when someone finds a therapist who agrees with everything they say and does not 

challenge them.... we call them a co-pay collector. I strongly doubt this therapist is doing anything more

than regurgitating what your STBXW says. Often times a couple in trouble each seek an IC 

with the desire to save the M. After they get ahold of a couple of co-pay collectors.... that M is beyond doomed.

One good thing my former IC / best female friend would do to me is.... "yeah she's a bytch... but WTF did you

do to make her act that way..... it's not all on her arse." And she was right. It's never 100 /0 and never 50 / 50.

AD... know how to tell if an IC is good or not? If they make your blood simmer and you cuss them under 

your breath.... they're doing their job.

BTW-Follow RTZs advice. Make the joint IC. Tell her where / when. If she doesn't attend.... that tells 

you a lot about how committed she is to "salvage things."


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Almost-Done said:


> Did this four times already. She will not go to another therapist. She's sticking with this one.


So that is her therapist now, her IC. Don't sweat it. The new one will be for joint MC.



Chuck71 said:


> BTW-Follow RTZs advice. Make the joint IC. Tell her where / when. If she doesn't attend.... that tells you a lot about how committed she is to "salvage things."


Yep! Wise words from Chuck. If she won't go, then you are wasting your time with her.


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## Almost-Done (Mar 5, 2016)

Already have my own IC. She was offered to come see her with me, she said first, yes, then, maybe, so far no go. I should prob. just get used to the fact that we're dead. It may be that we were dead before we ever started, I just didn't see it. Had those happy happy hormones covering things others saw, but I took a blind eye towards. Nothing is ever 100% her fault, never said that. In order for this to work, we'd need the following:

1) Move to a place she likes, sell my place. New place would need to be in joint name, but she has no money to put down.
2) Let her design the whole place with no input or comments from me.
3) She continue to not help around the place nor significantly contribute to the household expenses.
4) Being okay by being subservient and complacent by her treatment, cursing, etc.
5) Okay from abstaining from intercourse for the rest of my life.
6) Help her do whatever she needs/wants, but never ask for anything in return.
7) Forget about my family's events, only concerned with hers.
8) Never travel or go on vacation with each other.
9) No trust or respect.

Sounds like fun. No?


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Wow! That is a helluva menu.

With all of that on the horizon I am wondering why "Almost-Done" doesn't change his name to "Truly-Done"


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

1-If you're M.... equity is always split 50 / 50 unless document signed day of close says otherwise.

2-Get use to pink and snuggly wabbits.... UGH

3-You're the father, she's the daughter...... if YOU allow it

4-You must be a doormat. Who else can she wipe her feet on when others "hand her her arse when needed"

5-$1,000 says she won't abstain from sex. 

6-Make sure you get a cute apron that fits you well.

7-You're the guy she will make fun of with her girlfriends.... and OMs

8-That's for her and the OM but on your dime. Your reward... cleaning the house and baking

9-If you allow these, you do not deserve any respect. Cuckolds allow these things. 

Question.... WIIIFY? 

What is in it for you


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## Almost-Done (Mar 5, 2016)

Tron said:


> Wow! That is a helluva menu.
> 
> With all of that on the horizon I am wondering why "Almost-Done" doesn't change his name to "Truly-Done"


Already filed for divorce. Just upset on how we ended up in this situation. She wasn't like this before marriage. Also feel bad as it seems she's losing control of her life.


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## Almost-Done (Mar 5, 2016)

Chuck71 said:


> 1-If you're M.... equity is always split 50 / 50 unless document signed day of close says otherwise.
> 
> 2-Get use to pink and snuggly wabbits.... UGH
> 
> ...


Let me clarify, this is what she seems to want, not what has happened. I just stated that seems to be what she is looking for. 

When we were dating and engaged, thought I hit the Jackpot. Just don't know what in the world happened.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

Almost-Done said:


> Let me clarify, this is what she seems to want, not what has happened. I just stated that seems to be what she is looking for.
> 
> When we were dating and engaged, thought I hit the Jackpot. Just don't know what in the world happened.


I replied to what you said she wants..... I also said no R is 100 / 0 nor 50 / 50... 

had nothing to do with saying you have avoided your part...... if I thought either.... I would say you are not

owning your faults (POS tendencies).... which I haven't. Chill.... damn


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

Almost-Done said:


> Already filed for divorce. Just upset on how we ended up in this situation. She wasn't like this before marriage. *Also feel bad as it seems she's losing control of her life*.


That is NOT your problem anymore.......


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## Lilac23 (Jul 9, 2015)

Almost-Done said:


> Already filed for divorce. Just upset on how we ended up in this situation. She wasn't like this before marriage. Also feel bad as it seems she's losing control of her life.


Have you read ReGroup's thread? It's f'n awesome and may help you.


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## ReturntoZero (Aug 31, 2015)

Invite her to meet with your IC.

Schedule it.

Tell her when it is.

If she doesn't show up, who gives a rip?


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

Lilac23 said:


> Have you read ReGroup's thread? It's f'n awesome and may help you.


Long read..... 400+ pages but valuable lessons. Pay attention to Mavish and Conrad. 

There were around a dozen regular posters there who would also receive advice from those two.

About 50 pages is baseball talk so that cuts it down a bit.

I think Tom67 and I had a one night rant that covered a few pages and had nothing to do with ReGroup.

Post ended about two years ago but I still often recommend it to newbys.


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## Lilac23 (Jul 9, 2015)

Chuck71 said:


> Long read..... 400+ pages but valuable lessons. Pay attention to Mavish and Conrad.
> 
> There were around a dozen regular posters there who would also receive advice from those two.


Whatever happened to conrad and mavish?



Chuck71 said:


> About 50 pages is baseball talk so that cuts it down a bit.


I noticed that. :wtf:


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

ReturntoZero said:


> Invite her to meet with your IC.
> 
> Schedule it.
> 
> ...


Pointless. She obviously does not care for him and she isn't worth fighting for. He knows the drill and he's not interested.


Lilac23 said:


> Whatever happened to conrad and mavish?


Don't know about Mavish, but Conrad was permabanned.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Almost-Done said:


> Already filed for divorce. Just upset on how we ended up in this situation. She wasn't like this before marriage. Also feel bad as it seems she's losing control of her life.


Not your circus...

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## ReturntoZero (Aug 31, 2015)

Almost-Done said:


> Already have my own IC. She was offered to come see her with me, she said first, yes, then, maybe, so far no go. I should prob. just get used to the fact that we're dead. It may be that we were dead before we ever started, I just didn't see it. Had those happy happy hormones covering things others saw, but I took a blind eye towards. Nothing is ever 100% her fault, never said that. In order for this to work, we'd need the following:
> 
> 1) Move to a place she likes, sell my place. New place would need to be in joint name, but she has no money to put down.
> 2) Let her design the whole place with no input or comments from me.
> ...


What's not to like?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Almost-Done said:


> When we were dating and engaged, *thought I hit the Jackpot*. Just don't know what in the world happened.


So you, a typical low-self-esteem Nice Guy, believed you had 'caught' a woman who was above you, you couldn't believe your luck, and, as a typical Nice Guy, you proceeded to kiss her ass in every way you could think of to keep her from realizing she could get better.

And there's no bigger turn-off to a woman than a weak, needy man.


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## Almost-Done (Mar 5, 2016)

turnera said:


> So you, a typical low-self-esteem Nice Guy, believed you had 'caught' a woman who was above you, you couldn't believe your luck, and, as a typical Nice Guy, you proceeded to kiss her ass in every way you could think of to keep her from realizing she could get better.
> 
> And there's no bigger turn-off to a woman than a weak, needy man.


Kiss her ass? No, not really. Needy? Not at all. Even she would say that. Am I a nice guy? More like a good guy. Do I have my flaws, most definitely, who doesn't.


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## ReturntoZero (Aug 31, 2015)

Almost-Done said:


> Kiss her ass? No, not really. Needy? Not at all. Even she would say that. Am I a nice guy? More like a good guy. Do I have my flaws, most definitely, who doesn't.


We teach people how to treat us.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

ReturntoZero said:


> We teach people how to treat us.


It is good dogma, but we are not the only ones teaching that. Some people are just damaged, some people are full of histories that they will project. Others will treat us more kindly than we can deserve.

We can and should act on how we teach them to treat us, but it will never be the full story.


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## Almost-Done (Mar 5, 2016)

I was always taught to treat people how you would like to be treated. That was what I did. Did I wake up too late? Maybe. Did I put up with her crap too long. Maybe. Did I condition her with rewarding her bad or unfair behavior with the same treatment as if nothing happened at all. Maybe. 

I am human and try to still find the best out of people.


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## ReturntoZero (Aug 31, 2015)

Mr The Other said:


> It is good dogma, but we are not the only ones teaching that. Some people are just damaged, some people are full of histories that they will project. Others will treat us more kindly than we can deserve.
> 
> We can and should act on how we teach them to treat us, but it will never be the full story.


But, it IS the part we have control over.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

ReturntoZero said:


> But, it IS the part we have control over.


If someone is a jerk, that is not on you. 

We can make clear boundaries and not accept behaviour and end a relationship if that behaviour happens. 

However, there are damaged, self-destructive people in the world and the best option in that case is not to blame yourself but give up. If you are dealing with a psychopath or even someone with BPD, the only good advice is run.

Most people are a bit decent and a bit jerk and that is where what we expect and how we teach people to treat us has a large effect. Some people will just treat us well as they are decent.


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