# Therapist says a good marriage involves work, but not "thatttt much" work



## LovingHearts

My therapist is amazing in many ways. I love her to pieces. I am getting ready to go through a divorce. My husband is an immature spouse and parent. We no longer connect at all. When I first went to her, she asked if I thought my marriage was reparable. I said I wasn't sure, so we delved into it. After some time and lots of thinking, I realized that even attempting repair of my marriage with a spouse who feels nothing is his fault is unrealistic. Then she made a comment that surprised me: "Marriage takes work of course. But not thatttt much work. If it feels like all you do is work on your marriage, quite frankly, you're in the wrong marriage."

I am not sure how I feel about this. What do all you long-term people think? I know my current marriage is over. And I have no interest in finding anyone anytime soon; I want to work on myself and focus on my kids for at least a couple years. But then I do hope to find someone to whom I connect easily. All relationships have "stuff" but is it possible for them to come naturally between two people?


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## SimplyAmorous

*Re: Therapist says a good marriage involves work, but not "thatttt much" work*



LovingHearts said:


> My therapist is amazing in many ways. I love her to pieces. I am getting ready to go through a divorce. My husband is an immature spouse and parent. We no longer connect at all. When I first went to her, she asked if I thought my marriage was reparable. I said I wasn't sure, so we delved into it. After some time and lots of thinking, I realized that even attempting repair of my marriage with a spouse who feels nothing is his fault is unrealistic. *Then she made a comment that surprised me: "Marriage takes work of course. But not thatttt much work. If it feels like all you do is work on your marriage, quite frankly, you're in the wrong marriage."*
> 
> I am not sure how I feel about this. What do all you long-term people think? I know my current marriage is over. And I have no interest in finding anyone anytime soon; I want to work on myself and focus on my kids for at least a couple years. But then I do hope to find someone to whom I connect easily. *All relationships have "stuff" but is it possible for them to come naturally between two people?*


:iagree: with your Therapists comment...I tend to feel as humans...we are naturally "selfish" in what WE WANT.. what we ENJOY/ desire...this is not to say this is a bad thing.. just







and what works for you....so long as these are healthy desires.. not hurtful.....but realize ...they can be in great opposition with someone who is not COMPATIBLE with who we are, what we want/ enjoy ....

...So to meet up with another who wants the same things...has a similar marital vision... is our best bet for a smoother marital ride... 

What were the *major conflicts* in your Marriage that led to needing counseling? From your post, sounds he refused to take blame for anything, so he was an immature "BLAME shifter" then, very little self awareness to his own hand in the marital breakdown, too much pride, lacking humility..to his own faults..... 

Most issues CAN be resolved with effective communication.... and meeting each other half way.. but this takes humility, owning our own hand, forgiveness when called for...truly caring about our spouses, putting ourselves in their shoes -and doing OUR PART also....but it will always TAKE 2...having self awareness  will help greatly here..

Me & my husband ..we've always gotten along amazingly well... I've never looked at our marriage as "WORK".. sure we fight now & then like any other couple but it's pretty rare, we never walk away from each other..and we OWN our own faults, we are quick to forgive and want to please each other...

Our primary temperaments are different... but even in this, I can see how it's been *a blessing*... the whole "opposites attracting" thing ....his weaknesses are more MY strengths...and my weaknesses are more HIS strengths.. so what happens is...I admire in him what I struggle with...and he admires in me what he struggles with.. so we "compliment" each other very well...even crack jokes about it.. we love it!...and have done our best to weed out the bad in our own make ups ...(though we still slip now & then).. 

In dating.. it's just so important to dig deep...learn of the other person, what makes them TICK... if we "FIT".. or it's an uphill climb missing those red flags...

Such as....how we handle conflict... our life goals.... our personal beliefs... how we handle *$$$*.... do we want kids.... are we traditionally minded or more modern minded....are we sexually compatible (sexless marriages are not OK)..... how we feel about Privacy/ transparency.... our Love languages.... so many many things....that need explored....asking ourselves... can we LIVE with this person for a lifetime... accept them as they are....

And even in all this.. we are assuming they are healthy minded... if you throw in mental disorders, addictions, passive aggressive behavior, lying/ secrets, holding grudges... all of these things can spell heartache down the road...and loosing trust, respect.... 


They say these are the negative patterns that predict divorce...we need to all stay clear of...



> *1*. *Criticism*- the act of passing judgment as to the merits of anything, faultfinding. No Criticism Please!
> 
> *2*.* Contempt*- the feeling with which a person regards anything considered mean, vile, or worthless; disdain; scorn. The state of being despised; dishonor; disgrace. The Danger of Contempt
> 
> *3*. *Defensiveness*- Defensiveness: The Poison Pill to Relationships
> 
> *4*. *Stonewalling* - or 'the silent treatment' Stonewalling in Abuse


I got a little carried away in this answer... .. saying way more than needed.. but Yes..it's possible to find a relationship with shared passions that is more of a JOY... a shared benefit.....feeling each others #1 fan...over feeling it's like "work" at every turn...that would be exhausting for anyone..

My Mother & Father married at 18.. so little in common..it was like pulling teeth, I remember the fighting as a little girl....a blessing they divorced... My Father then married the love of his life... it flowed...they seemed hand picked for each other, even after 37 yrs.


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## Wazza

*Re: Therapist says a good marriage involves work, but not "thatttt much" work*

There is not enough information provided to answer your question.

Perhaps some more specific examples of problems? Some discussion on whether you believe marriage is for life? How much you are prepared to work on the marriage for the kids sake?

I have had long periods where my marriage was hard work. I stayed for the kids after my wife was unfaithful, and I feel like I have had the lions share of the work in rebuilding our marriage.

Was it worth it? Absolutely, for me, for my values, and for what I have now.

I also would ask how often your therapist challenges you vs enabling you. Ie I would be wary lest she is just telling you what she knows you want to hear.


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## Coffee Amore

*Re: Therapist says a good marriage involves work, but not "thatttt much" work*

I'm married to my best friend. It doesn't feel like work to be married to him, but I think I know what your therapist meant by "work". You constantly have to tweak things in the marriage to keep it going. You can't put it on auto-pilot. It's easy to put it on auto-pilot to focus on the children, their needs, your job, your aging parents or whatever else, but your marriage will suffer and you'll find both of you have grown apart. Pretty soon, a colleague, a neighbor, a parent on your child's sports team will look pretty good to you and you'll think this person appreciates me more, understands me better than my spouse. 

It helps to be a big picture person so that you don't get stuck in the nitty gritty, day to day details that make you lose sight of why you got married in the first place. Marriage takes effort. There are times when you wonder why you ever married the other person. Both spouses need to be committed to the commitment they made on their wedding day._ Monogamy is a choice that you make every da_y. A good marriage requires two people who are willing to decide again and again to stay with each and do the work to keep the marriage going.

Google John Gottman. He has traits of successful and unsuccessful marriages. It's very interesting reading.


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## PBear

*Re: Therapist says a good marriage involves work, but not "thatttt much" work*

Hmmm... If I was with someone who was working with me on the marriage, and was a source of happiness and joy in most ways, then yes, continue to work on the marriage.

On the other hand, if I was with someone who was the SOURCE of all the issues, who left me alone to deal with the problems, or who seemed to enjoy causing problems... Not so much willing to continue working on things.

C


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## LovingHearts

*Re: Therapist says a good marriage involves work, but not "thatttt much" work*

Thanks for all the thoughtful replies.

I do believe, ideally, marriage is for life. Yet I am not willing to live the life I have now. In general, the person who does the most emotional work in a relationship usually files divorce. That is my case exactly. I have been with my husband for 11 years. At one time, we were happy. Yet, we have each grown in completely different directions and in the current situation, the damage is done. This is the short list of our issues:

1) When I was in PA school (full-time masters), he lost his job due to tardiness. Then he blamed our "difficult" daughter because he has to get her to daycare before getting to work, which he didn't have to be there until 9:30! Then he blamed me for wanting a career and going back to school.

2) Losing your job is one thing. But not stepping up and finding a suitable replacement while your wife is in a school program that cannot be interrupted if she's going to finish is another thing. Then I found out I was pregnant with #2...and he still didn't find a job.

3) Now that I work full-time and he is not working, you'd think he'd take care of most of the house stuff. Yet, I do all the grocery shopping, cooking, bathing kids, packing lunches, and most of the cleaning. Completely unacceptable. Yet he will not change. And he's refusing to get a job now that we need him to. He hasn't even looked.

4) He is addicted to fantasy sports. He spends hours on this daily to the detriment of his family.

5) He cannot see his own fault in any of this, which in itself, is enough for a divorce. It just proves he is unwilling to accept responsibility for problems.

There is no joy in our lives. I am a positive, happy person. Maybe too much so. I have been warned how detrimental divorce is and how terrible it will be. But I cannot fathom how it would be worse than living with a passive-aggressive spouse who doesn't hold up his end of the bargain. Will it be hard? Yes. But will it be worth it to not have to take care of his butt? Yes. We have absolutely no connection, intimacy, or sources of mutual enjoyment. Being in his presence literally sucks my energy out of me. I am at work all day and have so much energy and positive vibes (and am told so by patients all day who thank me for my demeanor and candor). Yet, when I return home, my joy is almost instantly gone. As much as I love seeing my kids, being in the same house as he is in, it's impossible to be completely impermeable to his negative energy.

I know this marriage is over. I was just more curious if a really good marriage is truly "work" in the sense that it consumes significant amount of time and energy to make it work? So, for example, would two well-matched personalities who really enjoy each other look at it as "work" to make sure to spend time together and communicate respectfully? My relationship is so far gone that I cannot imagine ever enjoying being in this man's presence. But, according to my therapist, it is quite normal to have a really good marriage that doesn't "feel" like work because you enjoy each other so much. Obviously, things get hectic and you need to make sure to make time for each other...but if you really enjoy each other, is it really a chore?


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## LovingHearts

*Re: Therapist says a good marriage involves work, but not "thatttt much" work*



Wazza said:


> I also would ask how often your therapist challenges you vs enabling you. Ie I would be wary lest she is just telling you what she knows you want to hear.


Great comment. 

My therapist challenges me a LOT. At first, it stung. Now it's definitely welcomed as I want to grow as a person. She has not beat around the bush about how I don't give myself enough credit for all that I do. She also basically reprimands me for doing too much and letting him off the hook. I mean, she's nice about it, but she doesn't shy away from letting me know when I'm stuck in my thought process and not moving anywhere. At one point, she said, "Okay, so, obviously you are letting him take advantage of you. No matter what mean stuff he does, you are letting him. How you respond to this will show the nature of your character." Whoa, slap in the face. Basically, in a nice way, she said, "Stop your complaining and take some action."


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## PBear

*Re: Therapist says a good marriage involves work, but not "thatttt much" work*

I believe a marriage (or relationship) can be work. Life has a tendency to kick all of us around at times. But I think we deserve a partner who will work WITH us on those challenges, to the best of their abilities. And as an added benefit, overcoming those challenges together increases the connection between the partners.

C


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## Coffee Amore

*Re: Therapist says a good marriage involves work, but not "thatttt much" work*



LovingHearts said:


> *But, according to my therapist, it is quite normal to have a really good marriage that doesn't "feel" like work because you enjoy each other so muc*h. Obviously, things get hectic and you need to make sure to make time for each other...but if you really enjoy each other, is it really a chore?


The bolded is true for me. I don't feel like what I do to keep my relationship afloat is "work". It takes two make the marriage work. There has to be 100% from both parties. 

The relationship you described with your husband is "work" and unfairly one-sided. I can see why you'd want to end it. It would be a chore to remain in such a marriage.


LovingHearts said:


> Great comment.
> 
> My therapist challenges me a LOT. At first, it stung. Now it's definitely welcomed as I want to grow as a person. She has not beat around the bush about how I don't give myself enough credit for all that I do. She also basically reprimands me for doing too much and letting him off the hook. I mean, she's nice about it, but she doesn't shy away from letting me know when I'm stuck in my thought process and not moving anywhere. At one point, she said, "Okay, so, obviously you are letting him take advantage of you. No matter what mean stuff he does, you are letting him. How you respond to this will show the nature of your character." Whoa, slap in the face. Basically, in a nice way, she said, "Stop your complaining and take some action."


At some point one stops being a victim and becomes a volunteer. I'm glad the the therapy sessions illuminated that for you. You don't have to give so much when you get so little in return. That reminds me of the horrid book I had to read as a child, The Giving Tree.


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## Wazza

*Re: Therapist says a good marriage involves work, but not "thatttt much" work*



LovingHearts said:


> Great comment.
> 
> My therapist challenges me a LOT. At first, it stung. Now it's definitely welcomed as I want to grow as a person. She has not beat around the bush about how I don't give myself enough credit for all that I do. She also basically reprimands me for doing too much and letting him off the hook. I mean, she's nice about it, but she doesn't shy away from letting me know when I'm stuck in my thought process and not moving anywhere. At one point, she said, "Okay, so, obviously you are letting him take advantage of you. No matter what mean stuff he does, you are letting him. How you respond to this will show the nature of your character." Whoa, slap in the face. Basically, in a nice way, she said, "Stop your complaining and take some action."


I'm not there so I don't know. But she challenges you for being to nice to him and wants you to divorce home. There seema to be a clear agenda.


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## SimplyAmorous

*Re: Therapist says a good marriage involves work, but not "thatttt much" work*

With the situation You just described, I can see why you want to divorce.....you have done everything you could, he is NOT carrying his weight at all in the marriage, completely lop sided.. A shame it has to end like this... but you have given it your BEST shot....you sound like a well balanced woman who has a lot to offer in a relationship. 

When 2 people enjoy each other, carrying their own weight (the meaning of interdependence).... there flows a mutual respect for each other.. with this generally flows a shared affection & "words of affirmation" -which brightens our days.. we show appreciation for each other...it's an encouraging feedback loop really...which allows us to genuinely WANT to please the other...and our communication also flows easier/ carefree... we want to share with each other as well...

There is no resentment being stuffed, but a Thankfulness for each other... so long as we are careful to not take each other for granted...this goes forth....and marriage can feel like a tremendous blessing to our lives..


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## Mavash.

*Re: Therapist says a good marriage involves work, but not "thatttt much" work*



LovingHearts said:


> Great comment.
> 
> My therapist challenges me a LOT. At first, it stung. Now it's definitely welcomed as I want to grow as a person. She has not beat around the bush about how I don't give myself enough credit for all that I do. She also basically reprimands me for doing too much and letting him off the hook. I mean, she's nice about it, but she doesn't shy away from letting me know when I'm stuck in my thought process and not moving anywhere. At one point, she said, "Okay, so, obviously you are letting him take advantage of you. No matter what mean stuff he does, you are letting him. How you respond to this will show the nature of your character." Whoa, slap in the face. Basically, in a nice way, she said, "Stop your complaining and take some action."


Action doesn't always mean divorce. What else have you done besides therapy to stop your habit of allowing him to take advantage of you?


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## soulpotato

*Re: Therapist says a good marriage involves work, but not "thatttt much" work*

Some relationships are more work than others. It's just a question of whether someone is worth that extra effort or not. There is a tipping point at which it becomes "too hard", however. Balance, give-and-take, is critical. (I'm not speaking about your relationship in particular here as it seems your STBXH is not willing to work with you, just generally.)

As for therapists...evaluate and question what they say, accept carefully. They're only people, too, with their own agendas and issues.


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## LovingHearts

*Re: Therapist says a good marriage involves work, but not "thatttt much" work*



Wazza said:


> I'm not there so I don't know. But she challenges you for being to nice to him and wants you to divorce home. There seema to be a clear agenda.


She is not challenging me for being nice to him; she's challenging me for letting him walk all over me. I work all day and when I get home, nothing is done. No shopping, bathing the kids, cooking, lunch packing, daughter's homework, nothing. He's sitting at the computer playing fantasy sports. Her point was that I was shutting down every time he gave me any pushback when I asked him to step up. Basically, she's trying to let me know that I'm letting him treat me that way.

Mind you, therapy started back in February. It's now nearly December. When I went to her, I didn't know if I wanted a divorce. I knew I was completely miserable. At that time, I had a miserable job where I worked 60+ hours/week, etc. I made the change to a reasonable job (8:30 to 5). But with that came a significant decrease in pay. My husband and I had mutually decided he was to look for a job when I made this move. He was angry with me for quitting the lucrative job. But that just showed how he didn't care a single bit for me. I came home every night, tear-stained face, barely able to move because I was so depressed and exhausted. The kids were already asleep, and had been for hours. I would sometimes go 2-3 days without seeing them awake. Talk about torture on a mom's soul. And he DID NOT CARE. He wanted me to work for the money. It was at that point I realized he was a complete a-hole. Well, I had already realized that when he lost his job and didn't step up, when I almost died from sepsis (blood infection) after the birth of our son and he didn't ask his family for any help after I came home from a 2-week stint in the hospital, and when he told me my "episodes of postpartum depression were just a crock of sh**." 

What I'm working on right now is trying to function in a home where we know it's over. My therapist was trying to get me to realize that I needed to not do the things I ask him to do...basically to force him to do what he needs to do. Like give baths and go to the grocery store. When I do those things after asking him to do them, it's not being nice, it's being taken advantage of. Granted, I tend to still bathe the children because he doesn't do it and i can't let me kids be dirty.

It's bad enough that I'm not happy in this marriage. There's nothing good about it. But there is a lot of bad energy and hurt feelings. I am trying to heal and work with him. But when you're dealing with an immature passive aggressive spouse, it proves very difficult.


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## LovingHearts

*Re: Therapist says a good marriage involves work, but not "thatttt much" work*



Mavash. said:


> Action doesn't always mean divorce. What else have you done besides therapy to stop your habit of allowing him to take advantage of you?


We had been in couples therapy prior to the birth of our son (about 2 years ago). But that went really bad. We have read books. We have worked on communication ad nauseam. But the truth is, nothing will fix this mess.

Let me just put it this way: if there was something to build on, I'd be all for it. But, to be heartrendingly honest, there's no solid foundation anymore. I lost trust in him when he lost his job and didn't support me (his pregnant wife) during school and didn't see that losing his job affected all of us. My respect diminished significantly. Now, I am a forgiving person, but to this day, he is not sorry about what he did. He literally lost his job because he couldn't make it work on time (and by on time, I mean 9:30!!!!). And he blamed my daughter because she was "difficult" to get ready for daycare. And he blamed me for wanting to pursue a career. No support from him at all. He thinks support is standing out of my way so that I could pursue my dreams. 

He didn't realize that keeping a job, which he had for 7 years prior, would have constituted support as well. He still can't be empathetic about the situation I was in -- in a full-time Masters program (that I couldn't decrease the hours), pregnant, with another little mouth to feed already. On a Sunday morning, my daughter woke up and was crying and feverish. I told him I needed to take her to urgent care and his response was, "oh....well, I don't know about the insurance because they let me go Thursday." He had went for 4 days without telling me he was fired. And then had the nerve to call me out when I got angry. He said I was overreacting. Now, he had been WARNED two months prior that if he didn't get there on time, they'd can him. Do you think he got there on time? The answer is obvious.

The truth is, he is very immature. There is a book called "Should I Stay or Should I Go" by Lundy Bancroft. Now, I just perused it at the bookstore, but something caught my eye significantly. The book discusses abusive partners and immature partners and how that sometimes immature partners are taken as abusers. Prior to reading this, I wrote off my husband as verbally abusive, but given his background (VERY controlling, overbearing mother, Eastern European roots), I do believe his primary issue is immaturity. I don't think he's abusive by nature. But he is VERY passive aggressive. In fact, he took a quiz one time (from the couples therapist) and he scored 100%. The therapist privately told me she had never seen anyone score that. I thought maybe he was lying on the quiz, as in being passive aggressive on the passive aggressive quiz, but I looked over the answers and they were spot on. Also in that Bancroft book, there are traits/characteristics that make it more and less likely for a person to overcome their immaturity. Needless to say, my husband didn't fall under the section that it would be likely he'd overcome it.

I have also tried getting him to see counseling or reading books or even being treated for his low-grade depression (dysthymia). But he refuses.

Divorce definitely wasn't my first choice...or second, or third. And I can't believe it's come to this. But those who know me cheered when I told them what I had finally decided. This decision wasn't made lightly.

All this time, I thought I could fix my bad marriage. Then I realized there was no solid foundation on which to build a good one. The absence of bad doesn't make it good...or good enough for me and my kids. I know divorce is hard on children. But I also know this marriage is killing me. I am a good, kind person living with an unkind, moody, passive aggressive, immature man. I don't even care if I never meet another man, though I hope I will. I just want out of this "marriage."


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## 2ntnuf

*Re: Therapist says a good marriage involves work, but not "thatttt much" work*

Always ask your therapist or the person who made the comment that you misunderstand to explain. It gives you an opportunity to choose your next move. It frees you by giving you knowledge about the person you think you trust. 

Let them explain without adding information or agreeing, until you are satisfied.


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## LovingHearts

*Re: Therapist says a good marriage involves work, but not "thatttt much" work*



SimplyAmorous said:


> With the situation You just described, I can see why you want to divorce.....you have done everything you could, he is NOT carrying his weight at all in the marriage, completely lop sided.. A shame it has to end like this... but you have given it your BEST shot....you sound like a well balanced woman who has a lot to offer in a relationship.
> 
> When 2 people enjoy each other, carrying their own weight (the meaning of interdependence).... there flows a mutual respect for each other.. with this generally flows a shared affection & "words of affirmation" -which brightens our days.. we show appreciation for each other...it's an encouraging feedback loop really...which allows us to genuinely WANT to please the other...and our communication also flows easier/ carefree... we want to share with each other as well...
> 
> There is no resentment being stuffed, but a Thankfulness for each other... so long as we are careful to not take each other for granted...this goes forth....and marriage can feel like a tremendous blessing to our lives..


Thank you so, so much for this. I've read it several times. A good marriage doesn't necessarily mean the absence of bad -- though mine is bad. But a good marriage is GOOD. Where people work together and they care about each other.


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## Faithful Wife

*Re: Therapist says a good marriage involves work, but not "thatttt much" work*

Well, my marriage is a lot of work, and I don't mean the fun kind. We have always struggled with communication issues, fighting, and both of us being stubborn and independent.

That said, we do always feel in love with each other, supportive of each other, and we have a great sex life.

I don't think either my H or I could handle being with someone like you are describing your H. We both consider holding up our ends of the bargain (like staying employed) as the "bare minimum" in marriage. I mean, that part can be hard work too, especially if economic disasters fall your way without you being at fault. But losing a job due to tardiness is definitely an employee's fault, not a case of hard luck.

I'm sorry you are in this tough place. Yeah, the way you are describing it...marriage shouldn't be thattt much work.


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## SurpriseMyself

*Re: Therapist says a good marriage involves work, but not "thatttt much" work*



Coffee Amore said:


> At some point one stops being a victim and becomes a volunteer.


Thought provoking! Thx.


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## romantic_guy

*Re: Therapist says a good marriage involves work, but not "thatttt much" work*

Yes marriage take a lot of work, but my experience after 41 years (getting married at 16 & 17) is that the hardest work must go into the guy I see in the mirror every morning. There is no way a marriage can work if both people refuse to do what it takes to become emotionally healthy. So if you you are working on becoming emotionally healthy, but your partner is not, I am afraid there is not much hope.

It seems that the marriages that don't take a lot of work are the marriages where both people have a fair about of emotional health to begin with. We did not...although, I think I had more work to do than my DW did.


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## sh987

*Re: Therapist says a good marriage involves work, but not "thatttt much" work*

Maybe it's just me, but I'm not getting how a counselor is challenging a client (patient? I dunno) by hearing one half of a married couple's tale, and then tell the client how they do all of the work, how they don't give themselves enough credit, lets their spouse off the hook, etc, etc, etc.

Those things could all be true in LH's case. I don't know. She says it is, but I'm sure he has his own version, too. When LH said her counselor challenges her, I had this idea where it would be questions like:

-Do you think that you've done anything to contribute to his behaviours that you don't like?
-Has your husband raised any complaints about the marriage, and do you think they have any merit?

I'm not a counselor, and doubtless could only think of a small number compared to a professional. And maybe I'm off-base, but I don't really see how LH was challenged here.

This sounds less like advice from a counselor and more like what she could expect from a GF, but with a GF it would have only cost her the price of a few cups of coffee.


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