# So what about "desire"?



## Almost220 (Jan 23, 2020)

So in talking to a friend recently, asking me what I felt was missing in my marriage given our many problems, and in talking to him, it finally hit me: desire.

And here I don't mean ME desiring my wife.... I feel plenty of that. What I don't feel, and can't remember when I last felt it, is desired BY my wife.....?

I can give plenty of details and expand, but my question is this: what is the importance of feeling/being desired in a marriage? Is it wrong to _expect_ to feel it? Is it a privilege, an expectation? What?

I know it isn't up to my wife to make me feel sexy or to make me feel any certain way, but is it fair to myself to allow myself to exist in a marriage where I don't feel, let alone think, I am desired? Or is that selfish, unfair expectation?


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Almost220 said:


> So in talking to a friend recently, asking me what I felt was missing in my marriage given our many problems, and in talking to him, it finally hit me: desire.
> 
> And here I don't mean ME desiring my wife.... I feel plenty of that. What I don't feel, and can't remember when I last felt it, is desired BY my wife.....?
> 
> ...


What does "desire" mean to you? Would flirty text messages do the trick? Is there an issue where you say something nice & maybe a bit flirty yourself to your wife and it falls flat, so you wonder what the point is? Is it about you having to initiate everything and you'd like to see her greet you in her see-through Kimono once in a while? 

If it's any of those things, I think you'll find you're in very good company here. The problem with solutions is that they're both individual and, here's the worst part, they may involve you having to change yourself. You're also going to be asked if you're adequately communicating your issues with your wife, and not just by telling her what the issue is, but also explaining why it's important to you. Oh, and if you haven't already, you and your wife both need to read "The 5 Love Languages."

But welcome to TAM! Give some specifics and you'll get a lot of responses, from both men & women.


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## delupt (Dec 1, 2014)

Almost220 said:


> ... but my question is this: what is the importance of feeling/being desired in a marriage? Is it wrong to _expect_ to feel it? Is it a privilege, an expectation? What?


First, there is nothing wrong with wanting a fulfilling intimate relationship with your wife. 

The problem is, you have to create the atmosphere that makes it happen. Female desire comes as a response to masculinity (status, frame, playfullness, passing sh!ttests, decisiveness, prudent power, etc.), whereas male desire is more visual (younger, slimmer, longer hair, prettier, etc., whatever lights your candle).

Need more details on your dynamics, but she ain't gonna feel desire if you've both settled into homely roles (got kids?) where you're helping around the house and being a good provider. Sadly, this kills desire in a woman, and once a woman has turned off, it takes a lot of effort to get it back on. 

We men may not like the rules, but we have to play by them.

How long has it been dead? Months or years? Beware, many get to decades of sexlessness so understand you need to take action as it will ever fix itself. I'm not convinced that talking about it will work as you will sound needy and weak which will lower her desire even more. Just try a few things: flirt with her, tease her, be playful, be witty, be decisive and don't change your mind, ... and if you're rejected, no problem, don't whinge, just get on with something more interesting. And repeat. 

I assume she was turned onto you back in the day, what sparked her in those days? Have you changed by become more homely, more weight, lower status job, money issues, etc?


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

Almost220 said:


> I can give plenty of details and expand, but my question is this: what is the importance of feeling/being desired in a marriage? Is it wrong to _expect_ to feel it? Is it a privilege, an expectation? What?
> 
> I know it isn't up to my wife to make me feel sexy or to make me feel any certain way, but is it fair to myself to allow myself to exist in a marriage where I don't feel, let alone think, I am desired? Or is that selfish, unfair expectation?


I see mutual sexual attraction and desire as something to be expected in a marriage. Without that, why not be just friends? In my view, the difference between friend or familial love and romantic love is sexual desire.

Would I stay in a marriage where I don't feel desired? No. See: Why not just be friends. That said, I'd at least talk to my spouse and make sure he knows that I don't feel desired and if that doesn't change permanently, I'm out.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

delupt said:


> Almost220 said:
> 
> 
> > ... but my question is this: what is the importance of feeling/being desired in a marriage? Is it wrong to _expect_ to feel it? Is it a privilege, an expectation? What?
> ...


This is good advice, IF it fits the situation. IF.

Beware that there are women who marry men they aren't very attracted to on purpose, because they want him for the financial/life/family structure he will provide. Not because they also want HIM intimately.

Figure out which one your wife is.


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## TJW (Mar 20, 2012)

Livvie said:


> Beware that there are women who marry men they aren't very attracted to on purpose, because they want him for the financial/life/family structure he will provide. Not because they also want HIM intimately.


And, to boot, they consider themselves ENTITLED to have a completely one-sided marriage, complete with house, kids, cars, pools, fences..... as if it's some kind of "inalienable right" for them to have security at the expense of his significance.

Just let him try to get a divorce..... or, God really help him if he looks at another woman..... he is to have a life of forced celibacy and remain completely "faithful" to this damnable self-sacrificial ball-and-chain she demands.


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## Tilted 1 (Jul 23, 2019)

It has been explained that you must perform tricks to be desired what a crock, yes there are marital expectations which shouldn't have to be earned. Is it an unreasonable expectation to have this no. But because you may see it lacking from what it once was, involves everything, you have seen the changes in your marriage is she more demanding than she once was? Or does she feel she has to have a standard of living you cannot swing?

I get it but it's already been said that if she isn't feeling it she will move on, well if that the case maybe it time. But most marriages go through peaks and valleys. But if been one sided you need to talk and find out why? If you are just stew about this and don't confront this it will never change. Are you a man who is able to be happy with himself? 

Are you able to make a stand, for your desires, or just accept what little is giving to you. I believe having children or normal life isn't a good enough reason for her to not to be engaged with you. Yes women see things differently but if they are connecting to everyone or anything but you there is a problem. 

Maybe share more here so we can get a better picture of the relationship.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Almost220 said:


> So in talking to a friend recently, asking me what I felt was missing in my marriage given our many problems, and in talking to him, it finally hit me: desire.
> 
> And here I don't mean ME desiring my wife.... I feel plenty of that. What I don't feel, and can't remember when I last felt it, is desired BY my wife.....?
> 
> ...


The last paragraph you wrote sounds pretty self centered. All about 'myself' and 'I'. You made promises and you have commitments, are you so easily wanting to end a marriage because of what you FEEL? Feelings lie BTW. Marriage is about far more than just what 'we' want, or think 'we' need. If you have children even more so. 

My husband spent 23 years in a marriage where he didn't feel sexually desired. He stayed because he made a commitment, he made a promise, he had responsibilities and he had children. There was no way that he would have ever ended that marriage is she hadn't met someone else and ended it first.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Diana7 said:


> My husband spent 23 years in a marriage where he didn't feel sexually desired. He stayed because he made a commitment, he made a promise, he had responsibilities and he had children. There was no way that he would have ever ended that marriage is she hadn't met someone else and ended it first.


This kind of existence should not be wished upon ANYONE, sentenced to a life of self imposed misery out of obligation. NO ONE should be expected to live that way. 

OP, how was your early relationship with your wife? What was she like? Has she always lacked desire for you? Are you sure that is what is going on here? Sometimes there are other issues that exist and desire is affected by them. No, you should not be expected to stay where you are not wanted.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I've been married for over 30 years to a women who doesn't desire me in that way. After decades of thinking about the situation, I've concluded that the problem is not me. 

Some people do not have sexual desire - pretty much ever, under any circumstances. They are just not "wired" that way. (I often suggest people visit asexuality.org for input from people who never feel sexual desire)

OP - you should take a mental step back and think about your situation. Do you believe that in the same situation that you have with your wife, other women would desire you? Do you think your wife desires anyone?

Being desired is extremely important for many people. It is a perfectly reasonable thing to want / expect in a marriage - but some people are not capable of providing it. 


OTOH, I'd don't know anything about you . If you are 35, still living in your parent's basement, don't have a job and don't bathe - then it could be you. Do you think that in general you are the sort of person women can desire? You don't need to be a billionaire astronaut, just someone who has their life together .


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

I think what you are asking for is what we call in healthy relationships "actually being in the marriage."

To me, if your spouse isn't actively demonstrating that they want to be married to you - which probably included a sexual/romantic desire in the beginning - then they've checked out.

It could be laziness, it could be complacency, it could be that you're no longer the same kind of person they are attracted to, or it could be something else.

But checked out of a marriage is still just being checked out of a marriage.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

uhtred said:


> I've been married for over 30 years to a women who doesn't desire me in that way. After decades of thinking about the situation, I've concluded that the problem is not me.
> 
> Some people do not have sexual desire - pretty much ever, under any circumstances. They are just not "wired" that way. (I often suggest people visit asexuality.org for input from people who never feel sexual desire)
> 
> ...



But the above would be the best possible situation :smile2:

Shoot for this, if you're not quite this, you'll be close enough. 

Now I want to be a billionaire astronaut!!


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

3Xnocharm said:


> This kind of existence should not be wished upon ANYONE, sentenced to a life of self imposed misery out of obligation. NO ONE should be expected to live that way.
> 
> OP, how was your early relationship with your wife? What was she like? Has she always lacked desire for you? Are you sure that is what is going on here? Sometimes there are other issues that exist and desire is affected by them. No, you should not be expected to stay where you are not wanted.


Depends on whether you are the sort of person who breaks such vitally important promises they made and who understands what commitment and responsibility actually mean. 
He also doesn't believe that we should divorce and that marriage should be for life.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Diana7 said:


> 3Xnocharm said:
> 
> 
> > This kind of existence should not be wished upon ANYONE, sentenced to a life of self imposed misery out of obligation. NO ONE should be expected to live that way.
> ...


Who is "he"? The OP??? I didn't get that from his post. ??? 

Commitment and responsibility mean being a good partner to your spouse. Commitment and responsibility don't mean being stuck in a crap marriage for life.

Just because YOU believe everyone should stay in a ****TY marriage no matter what doesn't matter. Not everyone believes that and your views and definitions aren't better or more accurate than anyone else's.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

Diana7 said:


> Depends on whether you are the sort of person who breaks such vitally important promises they made and who understands what commitment and responsibility actually mean.
> He also doesn't believe that we should divorce and that marriage should be for life.


Here I see some interesting mental gymnastics.

IIRC, both you and your husband are divorced due to infidelity. Marriage is then clearly not for life. 

If a spouse breaking their vow of "forsaking all others" is grounds for divorce then, logically, a spouse breaking their vows of "to love and cherish" and "to have and to hold" should also be grounds for divorce.


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## Mybabysgotit (Jul 1, 2019)

TJW said:


> And, to boot, they consider themselves ENTITLED to have a completely one-sided marriage, complete with house, kids, cars, pools, fences..... as if it's some kind of "inalienable right" for them to have security at the expense of his significance.
> 
> Just let him try to get a divorce..... or, God really help him if he looks at another woman..... he is to have a life of forced celibacy and remain completely "faithful" to this damnable self-sacrificial ball-and-chain she demands.



I never really understood this type of thinking. In most marriages the wife, especially if she's a SAHM like mine is, does a lot more for the family than the husband. Sure, I work and bring home the money, but she literally does everything else and I can tell you that she works a lot harder than me. If we never had sex ever again, I sure wouldn't think the marriage is one-sided because I provide the "security". What she provides is so much more than security.

Another thing I don't understand is the sex part. I mean if he's not having sex, then neither is she, right? Women like sex as much or more than men, so it's not like she's "getting over on him", or in any better situation than he is. If she doesn't desire him then they're both not having sex, not just him. 


And for the "forced celibacy", what is that? No one forces anything on anyone. He always has a choice, everyone has a choice. No, w if he doesn't exercise his options, then it's on him, not her.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

Mybabysgotit said:


> I never really understood this type of thinking. In most marriages the wife, especially if she's a SAHM like mine is, does a lot more for the family than the husband. Sure, I work and bring home the money, but she literally does everything else and I can tell you that she works a lot harder than me. If we never had sex ever again, I sure wouldn't think the marriage is one-sided because I provide the "security". What she provides is so much more than security.


Marriage is complicated. It's part business (taking care of the bills and the household) and part personal (the private relationship between the spouses). I think the one sided bit referred to the personal relationship between the spouses.



Mybabysgotit said:


> Another thing I don't understand is the sex part. I mean if he's not having sex, then neither is she, right?


What you're missing here is not all women want sex. Some rarely want sex. Some want sex, but chose husbands they aren't sexually attracted to because they prioritized other attributes in mate selection. So, the low/no libido wife hums along just fine getting her needs met while the high libido husband goes without.


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## Almost220 (Jan 23, 2020)

OP Here...

Wow, great to see such a wealth of responses. TO be honest, I wasn't sure what to expect. And thank you all for your contributions. It seems there's lots of ideas in the thread above, and many express questions about the nature of who I am and our relationship over time.

So, more details:
Yes, there was definitely desire early on, though the sexual dysfunction, "checking out" started early. So, yes, this is a YEARS long issue. And yes, it definitely got more pronounced after kids (now 3rd and 5th graders).

She definitely didn't marry me for money or security! I am a teacher, so no lucrative salary here!
And I definitely haven't let myself go. Though I am mid 40s, I am in very good shape, generally thought of as attractive, though definitely not the cocky/arrogant type about it.

I am one who generally does not ignore problems, and so early on in our marriage, I was the one to propose marriage counselling. Through the years we've tried ummmm, 3-5 therapists, each on my urging, each to moderate success. We;ve read 5 Love Languages and several other self-0help marriage books (Passionate Marriage, etc....), again, all on my suggestion and urging. I don't say these things to say, wow, hey I am the perfect husband. I just want to illustrate that I am not a bury-the-head-in-the-sand kind of guy and I am willing to work on things, certainly admitting to my own faults and short comings fairly readily.

I know in trying to deal with the lack of desire I have no doubt handled things poorly at times, but never out of intention. Looking back, its clear that I have been deeply hurt by existing in this state for such a long time, that it has no doubt impacted my own self esteem, and yet despite that, whenever i have tried to address it, I usually try to double check my intentions to make sure I am coming to any conversations as level headedly as possible and driven by sincere mutual self interest.

This last round of concern, the one that prompted me to turn here, comes after a few deep heart to hearts recently where I have expressed to my wife that I am feeling quite out of hope about our marriage....a warning sign of separation/divorce, I know. But I am the kind who believes in upholding vows, upholding commitments, and it was out of this desire NOT to split, that I appealed to this forum, seeking to know, yes, am I wrong to expect to be desired? There is of course ego involved (who wants to feel like they are married to someone that they feel is only intimate with them out of obligation...?) At what point does upholding one's commitment in the face of profound dissatisfaction and in an environment that is destructive to their self esteem cease being a noble pursuit and instead make them a spineless chump (for lack of a better way to put that)?

Most recently, I made a clear and direct initiation of sex with her, to which she opted out, saying she wasn't quite in the mood and needed more time, and thus I called off the advances. This itself was not an issue (there were days earlier in our marriage where I would have taken this personally, wondered, awwww, what's wrong with me that she doesn't want me? But I am done with that). I actually appreciated her clear and direct response. I have no interested in being intimate with her merely out of her sense of guilt or obligation or pity,... So I just moved on. It was only later, the next day when she returned to the subject and pseudo apologized that she triggered this reminder and clarity about the issue of desire. She point blank said that she felt/feels torn at such moments when she "isn't feeling it." Whether to be faithful to her own inclinations (ie, clear lack of desire) or to follow through at the expense of what she is feeling (hope that makes sense). And she says this, I know, with full knowledge of the differences between male and female sexuality.... (someone above alluded to this with the idea that men are visual, etc... and come to the table ready to go, while women warm up more to the idea and the urges can often come second only after initiating).

So yeah, I'm okay with all that in theory and in principal and likely would not have been triggered, had I not thought further about it and realized that, heck, she NEVER generally expresses a desire... and sex/intimacy in general seems for her a matter of last resort, of convenience, last priority once there's not other reason NOT to have sex or be intimate....

Okay, this post has gone on long enough, but I hope it helps clarify things and I look forward to any follow up wisdom out there!


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Almost220 said:


> OP Here...
> 
> Wow, great to see such a wealth of responses. TO be honest, I wasn't sure what to expect. And thank you all for your contributions. It seems there's lots of ideas in the thread above, and many express questions about the nature of who I am and our relationship over time.
> 
> ...


A few things:

1. what was sex like at the beginning of the relationship and what is it like now - in terms of frequency and in terms of interest?

2. how big a deal is this to you? Are you all-in, meaning you're willing to divorce if this doesn't get fixed? Or is it something you want to improve on but even if it doesn't, you're going to stay?

3. how rational is your wife when you have these conversations? What happens when you go to therapists? Is she interested and active, or is she passive? Or defensive?

4. has your wife ever expressed to you what she wants out of her sexual relationship with you with clarity? Meaning, she wishes it could be better, or she wishes you'd just accept it for what it is? Is she happy with it?


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## Almost220 (Jan 23, 2020)

Marduk said:


> A few things:
> 
> 1. what was sex like at the beginning of the relationship and what is it like now - in terms of frequency and in terms of interest?
> 
> ...



Caught me still here:

1. it was good, passionate, frequent. Until about 3-4 years into relationship, chilled some to be expected I guess. Nothing ever too out of the box. In terms of growth, I would say I have grown more in sexuality--- shared desired to express new things, etc.... Wife has frequently said she liked it when we were younger and she felt like she was leader, etc... Right now, it is maybe, maybe 1 -2 times a month if we're lucky. Most likely 0-1 time. And most often, bland, unconnected. Given that, it doesnt seem too much for me to "give up" and just say f- it. And check out from it all myself.

2. It is a pretty big deal. Been unhappy about it for a long long time. and it coupled with other general issues (which I suspect are just as likely to blame as pure sexuality for our issues), yes, I am now thinking separating might be best case. If it werent for kids, I'd be a whole lot less apprehensive about going the split up route....

3. Wife is more rational now. Early on, very defensive. She has a great deal of shame and baggage from youth, I think. Early on, when I raised the issue about lack of intimacy, she would flip it and point to something I was doing or not doing to be the blame.... Always a revolving and evolving blame game away from her. Therapists have been decent, though never break through moments. It was like it would get her plugged back in fior a few weeks, a month, etc... and the poof, before either of us noticed it, it was back to buisness as usual. THe emotional yoyo ride is half the drain. Definitely has been manipulative.... only time she generally gets what I would call remotely aggressive or pursuing about sex is when I bring up the issue and maybe she senses me pulling away. I read an attachment theory thing the other day that seemed to explain that: one person being needy in one way, the other fearing detachment.... led to spirals of unhealthy interactions....

4. SHe agrees she thinks it could be better, but very reluctant to speak to any specifics on how to improve it.... Early on she would try to deemphasize the sex part (which made sense) and expressed concern that I just wanted sex or a screw and didn't want her..... that's about it, though recently she did agree with me when I said I felt like neither of us really "knew" the other person very deeply on a sexual side of things.

Maybe all that helps.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Mybabysgotit said:


> I never really understood this type of thinking. In most marriages the wife, especially if she's a SAHM like mine is, does a lot more for the family than the husband. Sure, I work and bring home the money, but she literally does everything else and I can tell you that she works a lot harder than me. If we never had sex ever again, I sure wouldn't think the marriage is one-sided because I provide the "security". *What she provides is so much more than security.*
> 
> Another thing I don't understand is the sex part. I mean if he's not having sex, then neither is she, right? *Women like sex as much or more than men*, so it's not like she's "getting over on him", or in any better situation than he is. If she doesn't desire him then they're both not having sex, not just him.
> 
> ...


These two items could bear further attention, they are described from a tinted view for "all" cases it seems, which isn't quite accurate.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Almost220 said:


> Caught me still here:
> 
> 1. it was good, passionate, frequent. Until about 3-4 years into relationship, chilled some to be expected I guess. Nothing ever too out of the box. In terms of growth, I would say I have grown more in sexuality--- shared desired to express new things, etc.... Wife has frequently said she liked it when we were younger and she felt like she was leader, etc... Right now, it is maybe, *maybe 1 -2 times a month if we're lucky. Most likely 0-1* time. And most often, bland, unconnected. Given that, it doesnt seem too much for me to "give up" and just say f- it. And check out from it all myself.
> 
> ...


All common deflecting patterns. And presently she knows you'll stand for it until you give up.

Something deeper is going on or she's gotten complacent knowing you won't rock the boat. 

Hang in there.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Almost220 said:


> Caught me still here:


Thanks for responding about intimate details. I know it can feel weird talking about it to strangers across the internet.



> 1. it was good, passionate, frequent. Until about 3-4 years into relationship, chilled some to be expected I guess. Nothing ever too out of the box. In terms of growth, I would say I have grown more in sexuality--- shared desired to express new things, etc.... Wife has frequently said she liked it when we were younger and she felt like she was leader, etc... Right now, it is maybe, maybe 1 -2 times a month if we're lucky. Most likely 0-1 time. And most often, bland, unconnected. Given that, it doesnt seem too much for me to "give up" and just say f- it. And check out from it all myself.


Interesting. What happened 3-4 years into the relationship? Kids? Something else?

I'm also curious here about your wife's comment about liking to be the leader. Does that mean she likes to be dominant or assertive sexually?



> 2. It is a pretty big deal. Been unhappy about it for a long long time. and it coupled with other general issues (which I suspect are just as likely to blame as pure sexuality for our issues), yes, I am now thinking separating might be best case. If it werent for kids, I'd be a whole lot less apprehensive about going the split up route....


Gotcha. I'm testing here because you may have to risk your marriage to save it, then. And it still might not work. So I'm trying to gauge your stakes here.



> 3. Wife is more rational now. Early on, very defensive. She has a great deal of shame and baggage from youth, I think. Early on, when I raised the issue about lack of intimacy, she would flip it and point to something I was doing or not doing to be the blame.... Always a revolving and evolving blame game away from her. Therapists have been decent, though never break through moments. It was like it would get her plugged back in fior a few weeks, a month, etc... and the poof, before either of us noticed it, it was back to buisness as usual. THe emotional yoyo ride is half the drain. Definitely has been manipulative.... only time she generally gets what I would call remotely aggressive or pursuing about sex is when I bring up the issue and maybe she senses me pulling away. I read an attachment theory thing the other day that seemed to explain that: one person being needy in one way, the other fearing detachment.... led to spirals of unhealthy interactions....


Interesting. 

My interpretation of this behaviour based on what you wrote might be that she wants to be married to you, knows that you expect a good sex life as part of being married, and she wants to want to have a good sex life with you, but doesn't really. This could be:
1. low libido as a change - hormones, diet, exercise, sleep, depression, etc.
2. low libido as her normal - meaning, she was just kind of faking it in the beginning or was caught up in the new relationship energy and once that wore off, she went back to her normal, default sexuality, which is at a lower level than yours.
3. something happened 3-4 years into your relationship that was a crisis point for her heavily impacting how she felt about you, or how she felt about herself, or how she felt about the relationship. This could be something bad you did, something bad she did, or some perceived core failing in the relationship.
4. she feels unattractive.
5. she feels you are unattractive.
6. she was never that into you at the beginning (doesn't sound that way but I'll throw it out there).
7. she's into someone else. (again, doesn't sound that way, but a lot of stuff you're describing here happened in my first marriage when she started sleeping with someone else).



> 4. SHe agrees she thinks it could be better, but very reluctant to speak to any specifics on how to improve it.... Early on she would try to deemphasize the sex part (which made sense) and expressed concern that I just wanted sex or a screw and didn't want her..... that's about it, though recently she did agree with me when I said I felt like neither of us really "knew" the other person very deeply on a sexual side of things.
> 
> Maybe all that helps.


Hmm. When you say "early on" do you mean 3-4 years into the relationship? Or at the beginning of the relationship?

What kinds of things would she say specifically when in therapy? Does she ever throw out reasons or justifications? Or is she exasperated and confused?

How happy is she otherwise in the marriage? Does she say she loves you often? Is she affectionate with you in non-sexual ways? Does she show you appreciation, respect, compassion?


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

MJJEAN said:


> I see mutual sexual attraction and desire as something to be expected in a marriage. Without that, why not be just friends? In my view, the difference between friend or familial love and romantic love is sexual desire.
> 
> Would I stay in a marriage where I don't feel desired? No. See: Why not just be friends. That said, I'd at least talk to my spouse and make sure he knows that I don't feel desired and if that doesn't change permanently, I'm out.


Yes, yes, yes... As a man, I quite clearly state and have the desire talk along with the sex talk at the start of every relationship and repeat as necessary.

Women, usually, have no issue telling their man that they want to be desired. Men should be no different, and in a romantic relationship BOTH partners should spend ample time making the other feel desired. 

Not picking, but some women seem to think that men do now need this. Why some think that I have no idea. 

Women, in my life, need to figure this stuff out pretty quick or they are toast.

This is such a basic thing in life I am dismayed that we get so many questions about it.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Almost220 said:


> this reminder and clarity about the issue of desire. She point blank said that she felt/feels torn at such moments when she "isn't feeling it." Whether to be faithful to her own inclinations (ie, clear lack of desire) or to follow through *at the expense of what she is feeling* (hope that makes sense).


The bolded part is the issue. She understand expense of terms of herself and not the expense of the relationship. There is an "us" aspect to the relationship that SHE is responsible for, just as YOU are. In short, you are both responsible for the other. In such a situation, the cost of avoiding intimacy with your partner may be either unrecognized or greatly understated. 

"When you say "x", it makes me feel badly about our relationship because "y."

Nice people can be surprisingly myopic. It never occurred to my wife to think about how I felt when she'd say something like "I'd be fine with sex once or twice a month, if that." Or, "If sex is so important to you, go find a hooker." People respond to issues sometimes only with a view towards getting what they want. 

Of course, it's not just turning down sex... it's also her wishing she didn't have to turn you down. That you were less sexual. Explain the "Be careful what you wish for" bit. You are whom you are. What would happen if you decided to be nice and not bother her for sex because you had outlets elsewhere? Would that be an improvement for her? Obviously you explain that would not happen within the marriage, but it's a powerful motivation for considering exiting a marriage.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

BluesPower said:


> Not picking, but some women seem to think that men do now need this. Why some think that I have no idea.


I think it's often a misunderstanding of sorts. I think some women believe that accepting a man's advances, responding to him enthusiastically, is enough to convey their desire for him. This may be especially true for those who are responsive desire and for those who are more passive or shy. So, from the woman's point of view, she's showing him she desires him. The man, however, isn't feeling desired because he believes her passivity means she lacks desire for him.


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## Almost220 (Jan 23, 2020)

Marduk said:


> Thanks for responding about intimate details. I know it can feel weird talking about it to strangers across the internet.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


---- yes definitely on all these. And in terms of these emotions they are sincere. There is still love there, I think from these.


Wow, okay, clearly I have a lot to say on all this!!!! Thanks for the good questions.


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## Almost220 (Jan 23, 2020)

Realized I didn't do the quote correctly for your questions in my post above, and might not be easily readable. So here goes a second try:

*Interesting. What happened 3-4 years into the relationship? Kids? Something else?*


----- Got married around then! A major move. Some clear depression on her part. You are smart targetting that as root. She once mentioned in therapy having first weaponized sex (withholding it) back then because of the turmoil of the life upheaval. That was the first time I proposed therapy when I saw the signs.


*I'm also curious here about your wife's comment about liking to be the leader. Does that mean she likes to be dominant or assertive sexually?*

---- Not at all. Over time, super passive. Occasionally she used to mention how in the past (college, before me) she was very comfortable sexually and there were no issues, and yeah..... that's something you really want your wife to say? TO my ears, that translates basically to: "Why yes, before you, I had no issues with desire. So is must be you that I don't desire" NICE. See my above points about being hurt, self esteem eroded from all this!!

*Gotcha. I'm testing here because you may have to risk your marriage to save it, then. And it still might not work. So I'm trying to gauge your stakes here.*

---- I understand.

*Interesting.

My interpretation of this behaviour based on what you wrote might be that she wants to be married to you, knows that you expect a good sex life as part of being married, and she wants to want to have a good sex life with you, but doesn't really. This could be:
1. low libido as a change - hormones, diet, exercise, sleep, depression, etc.
2. low libido as her normal - meaning, she was just kind of faking it in the beginning or was caught up in the new relationship energy and once that wore off, she went back to her normal, default sexuality, which is at a lower level than yours.
3. something happened 3-4 years into your relationship that was a crisis point for her heavily impacting how she felt about you, or how she felt about herself, or how she felt about the relationship. This could be something bad you did, something bad she did, or some perceived core failing in the relationship.
4. she feels unattractive.
5. she feels you are unattractive.
6. she was never that into you at the beginning (doesn't sound that way but I'll throw it out there).
7. she's into someone else. (again, doesn't sound that way, but a lot of stuff you're describing here happened in my first marriage when she started sleeping with someone else).
*

------ Yeah, in a way at this point I've stopped wondering about the "why" and more about the okay, so what....? Through the years potential explanations from her, me, therapists.... have included depression, low libido. Part of the journey with this has been reading books and through that she started to feel like "there was something wrong with her" for low desire, low initiation and has said before that she "feels like a disappointment." TO which, over time, I've grown more direct in my response saying that, no, she is not a disappointment, though our lack of intimacy very much IS a disappointment. I suspect this, to her, must sound to her ears about as pleasant as the veiled insult from her I quote above, but it is the truth and not sure how else to put it.

*Hmm. When you say "early on" do you mean 3-4 years into the relationship? Or at the beginning of the relationship?*

------ Beginning and early on. Yes, 3-4 years.

*What kinds of things would she say specifically when in therapy? Does she ever throw out reasons or justifications? Or is she exasperated and confused?*

----- See above. Very rarely has therapy focused directly on the sex. But that's where the above comments come from. Then more complex stuff, therapists volunteer about virgin-***** conundrum.....

*How happy is she otherwise in the marriage?*

---- AS team mates, maybe. But lately, no. Said something to the effect of, she wanted a reset button, that this wasnt the life she had been expecting (haha, again, nice.... you see why I feel like I'm on a railroad track toward divorce! Thus this last ditch desperation plea for wisdom).

*Does she say she loves you often?*

----nahhhh, not in a meaningful way too often. More out of habit. End of phone conversations, going out the door for work, etc... But often those are more of actually a habit of mine she reciprocates.

*Is she affectionate with you in non-sexual ways?*

------- Hell no. And that's as aggravating as the non intimacy. A hand on my back, grabbing my hand while driving.... all long gone in the relationship. Only time she is directly affectionate is when she feels me pulling back. After I shut down the other night after my initiation was refused, she no doubt then felt guilt or some such and as I laid on the bed for a moment, she rubbed my back,. leg, etc... made a flattering comment about my backside (haha) but that is hard to take too seriously. ALl part of what I now tend to see as non-intentional manipulation. She would NEVER have been that affectionate if things hadnt gone the way they had. THrough the years, she has always given our internal clocks as a reason for not matching up with sex. Im a nigfht owl, she prefers it early. To which I have said, she was free to wake me up whenever. Only time she ever took me up on it and woke me up to initiate sex was a month or so ago after a big fight about the same. Wow, that night she desired me, took me up on it and woke me up affectionately and wants..... I stopped her though and said I would only do it (sex) if the advances were for real and not just the same old yoyo ride of manipulation: I pull away, she pulls toward.....

*Does she show you appreciation, respect, compassion?*

---- yes definitely on all these. And in terms of these emotions they are/seem sincere. There is still love there, I think from these.


Wow, okay, clearly I have a lot to say on all this!!!! Thanks for the good questions. 

Any more advice on how to proceed? I have been away from the house for a few days for work and family, and the absence has dug me in in dark ways and not too excited to go back!


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Almost220 said:


> Occasionally she used to mention how in the past (college, before me) she was very comfortable sexually and there were no issues, and yeah..... that's something you really want your wife to say? TO my ears, that translates basically to: "Why yes, before you, I had no issues with desire. So is must be you that I don't desire" NICE. See my above points about being hurt, self esteem eroded from all this!!
> *What kinds of things would she say specifically when in therapy? Does she ever throw out reasons or justifications? Or is she exasperated and confused?*
> 
> ----- See above. Very rarely has therapy focused directly on the sex. But that's where the above comments come from. Then more complex stuff, therapists volunteer about virgin-***** conundrum.....


First off, some women have no clue whatsoever how it comes across when they volunteer information about their past that puts their current partner in a bad light, in terms of sexual prowess or compatibility. It is so strange. If your partner was significantly overweight and you made a reference to past girlfriends with gorgeous bodies that were more appealing than yours, well, you just wouldn't do that, would you? Of course not. Both are just simply stating facts, right? 

By the way, what's that "vigin-***** conundrum thing?


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## Almost220 (Jan 23, 2020)

Casual Observer said:


> By the way, what's that "vigin-***** conundrum thing?




I tried to paste a link, but maybe that doesn't work... I'm a newbie here.

I actually mis-named it. It's generally Madonna-Wh*** Complex. Essentially, as we talked about it, affection and sexuality desires are at odds with one another in seeing the partner. Bad explanation, but easy enough to find a good one googling the right terms. sorry!


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

To make a very long story short. After 25 is years, my now ex-wife told me she has always had a platonic love for me.


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

To make a very long story short. After 25 is years, my now ex-wife told me she has always had a platonic love for me. 

I spent the majority of that time jumping through hoops to earn her love and for her to desire me. after all, that what all the books told me to do. I even went to marriage counseling by myself because my ex had no desire to go. We did have sex, but it felt like rape. She just wanted it over. I don't know how we survived so long.

Bottom line... she didn't desire me one bit no matter how often I took her out to dinner, no matter how often I cooked breakfast and dinner, washed clothes, cleaned the toilets, vacuumed, or did laundry. She had no desire for me. Nothing I did changed that.


BTW... she was a 25 year old virgin when we met.

I moved out about two years ago and officially divorced for about a year. Been dating a woman for over a year now and we've had more sex in our first few months than my entire 25 years with my ex. I don't have to do anything and I feel she desires me. That's a whole other happy story though. It's not just the sex, it the affection, the hugging, kissing, the hand holding, it's waking up in the morning with her wrapped in my arms . Morning sex? OMG! never had that in 25 years. 


I became a bitter angry person and after all these years, my true happy self has emerged.


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## Almost220 (Jan 23, 2020)

Trickster said:


> To make a very long story short. After 25 is years, my now ex-wife told me she has always had a platonic love for me.


A quick note of thanks as I have returned home and very shortly plan to address a lot of the issues raised here, directly with my spouse. As I should have expected, sometimes when we ask questions, seeking answers from others, we are forced and challenged to find answers within ourselves. That's entirely been the case here, as everyone's comments have made me think, made me argue with them and myself, and at least for now I feel some clarity. I will not, however, delude myself into thinking that I have found THE answers, but rather AN answer for now that I hope will lead my wife and I to ask _new_ questions about our relationship, and then, we will see where those take us......

Thank you!


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

When I hear about desire I immediately think Esther Perel. She’s done a lot of work on desire in long term relationships and how’s it’s really difficult. Watch this 20min video it’s worth it.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Trickster said:


> To make a very long story short. After 25 is years, my now ex-wife told me she has always had a platonic love for me.
> 
> I spent the majority of that time jumping through hoops to earn her love and for her to desire me. after all, that what all the books told me to do. I even went to marriage counseling by myself because my ex had no desire to go. We did have sex, but it felt like rape. She just wanted it over. I don't know how we survived so long.
> 
> ...


This is in fact what MOST of us say to do in these situations. At least I always do. 

You can jump through as many hoops as you want, what you learn is that 1) "IT", however you define it, is either there or it is not. And 2) There is NOTHING that you can do to create it, NOTHING. 

So the reasoning is it is best to divorce, get yourself healthy mentally and physically, and start over...


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Almost220 said:


> Realized I didn't do the quote correctly for your questions in my post above, and might not be easily readable. So here goes a second try:
> 
> *Interesting. What happened 3-4 years into the relationship? Kids? Something else?*
> 
> ...


Check. On what, I'll say below.




> *I'm also curious here about your wife's comment about liking to be the leader. Does that mean she likes to be dominant or assertive sexually?*
> 
> ---- Not at all. Over time, super passive. Occasionally she used to mention how in the past (college, before me) she was very comfortable sexually and there were no issues, and yeah..... that's something you really want your wife to say? TO my ears, that translates basically to: "Why yes, before you, I had no issues with desire. So is must be you that I don't desire" NICE. See my above points about being hurt, self esteem eroded from all this!!


Check.



> *Gotcha. I'm testing here because you may have to risk your marriage to save it, then. And it still might not work. So I'm trying to gauge your stakes here.*
> 
> ---- I understand.
> 
> ...


Big fat check in red marker here.



> *Hmm. When you say "early on" do you mean 3-4 years into the relationship? Or at the beginning of the relationship?*
> 
> ------ Beginning and early on. Yes, 3-4 years.
> 
> ...


****ing MCs. Often focus on the wrong things, and let people off the hook. Check.



> *How happy is she otherwise in the marriage?*
> 
> ---- AS team mates, maybe. But lately, no. Said something to the effect of, she wanted a reset button, that this wasnt the life she had been expecting (haha, again, nice.... you see why I feel like I'm on a railroad track toward divorce! Thus this last ditch desperation plea for wisdom).
> 
> ...


Sigh. Check.



> *Is she affectionate with you in non-sexual ways?*
> 
> ------- Hell no. And that's as aggravating as the non intimacy. A hand on my back, grabbing my hand while driving.... all long gone in the relationship. Only time she is directly affectionate is when she feels me pulling back. After I shut down the other night after my initiation was refused, she no doubt then felt guilt or some such and as I laid on the bed for a moment, she rubbed my back,. leg, etc... made a flattering comment about my backside (haha) but that is hard to take too seriously. ALl part of what I now tend to see as non-intentional manipulation. She would NEVER have been that affectionate if things hadnt gone the way they had. THrough the years, she has always given our internal clocks as a reason for not matching up with sex. Im a nigfht owl, she prefers it early. To which I have said, she was free to wake me up whenever. Only time she ever took me up on it and woke me up to initiate sex was a month or so ago after a big fight about the same. Wow, that night she desired me, took me up on it and woke me up affectionately and wants..... I stopped her though and said I would only do it (sex) if the advances were for real and not just the same old yoyo ride of manipulation: I pull away, she pulls toward.....


Check. Oh, the stories I could tell.


> *Does she show you appreciation, respect, compassion?*
> 
> ---- yes definitely on all these. And in terms of these emotions they are/seem sincere. There is still love there, I think from these.


Ah, ok. Our first non-check mark.



> Wow, okay, clearly I have a lot to say on all this!!!! Thanks for the good questions.
> 
> Any more advice on how to proceed? I have been away from the house for a few days for work and family, and the absence has dug me in in dark ways and not too excited to go back!


OK. All those check marks above are extreme similarities to my first marriage. My ex wife was (and still is) extremely beautiful and intelligent, but also very calculating with many sexual hangups. She hid many of these from me until we got married. We got to this point where you're at - and continued.

We ended up totally sexless, with an increasing amount of head-****ery and infidelity and straight out emotional abuse. I'll skip past that, because there's one big difference here, and that is that she still seems to respect you. My ex didn't.

What I came to understand is that my ex saw sex differently than I did. For her, from what I've gathered in her relationships since, it's something to use to get what you want. And when she wants it, she gets bored and moves on, often without breaking up with the other guy first. That was her solution to the whole madonna/***** complex - to leverage and use sex, because good girls shouldn't directly want it. I'm bringing that up because it was very much a component of the whole deal here - that she shouldn't (and maybe couldn't) just have sex be a normal part of a relationship. 

If that's where your wife is at, then she must choose to change or she must choose to respect you enough to wish you well on your journey forward without her.

Alternatively, it's very possible or even probable that she was never that into you to begin with. Many a guy here has posted just to discover that he was the husband his wife wanted to want... but just didn't want. In this scenario, surprisingly, all might not be lost depending on what triggers her. Do you know what guys she was into before she met you? Do you know why she picked you instead of those other guys? Are you the stable one that she was expected to marry?

Some of the other alternatives still stand, for example depression. However you first and foremost need to find a new therapist, one that will hold her feet to the fire. She needs to understand that you are at a decision point. She needs to understand that you took an oath of monogamy when you married her, not an oath of celibacy. And she needs to understand - like my ex wife refused to - that you can't tick sex off like check box on your to-do list to get your spouse off your back. Like the rest of the relationship, you need to be in or out.

And quite frankly, she sounds like a friend that you have children with, not a wife.


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

Almost220 said:


> A quick note of thanks as I have returned home and very shortly plan to address a lot of the issues raised here, directly with my spouse. As I should have expected, sometimes when we ask questions, seeking answers from others, we are forced and challenged to find answers within ourselves. That's entirely been the case here, as everyone's comments have made me think, made me argue with them and myself, and at least for now I feel some clarity. I will not, however, delude myself into thinking that I have found THE answers, but rather AN answer for now that I hope will lead my wife and I to ask _new_ questions about our relationship, and then, we will see where those take us......
> 
> Thank you!



When I left my marriage, I felt like an ogre. I left thinking that I would never find the type of love I was looking for. I felt I would never know what it would feel like to be desired. Leaving still seemed like the best option. During that time, to put it nicely, I became a butthead. Like I wanted to punish her for not loving me...Stupid, I know. I had so much resentment I felt justified to treat her like crap and I regret doing that! 

My ex-wife and I get along better than ever now. We have a platonic relationship, which is something she wanted all along. I don't have anymore anger like before.

If I could offer you any advise, it would be to let go of any resentments, anger, and expectations. Look for a way to make everybody happy.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

*Re: So what about &amp;quot;desire&amp;quot;?*

Speaking As A Moderator:

The thread jacks stop now.

If you want to discuss religion in marriage, Esther Perel, or any number of other things that seem to have derailed this thread, start your own thread.

First and final warning (more names to be added as I clean this up):
@Marduk @MJJEAN @Cletus @BluesPower @Diana7 @3Xnocharm @Girl_power @Livvie

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Mybabysgotit (Jul 1, 2019)

MJJEAN said:


> What you're missing here is not all women want sex. Some rarely want sex. Some want sex, but chose husbands they aren't sexually attracted to because they prioritized other attributes in mate selection. So, the low/no libido wife hums along just fine getting her needs met while the high libido husband goes without.


I don't think i'm missing anything. Are you saying "not all women want sex", or "not all women want sex with their husband". If it's the former, then I would say you're wrong as only 1% of the entire population of the world identify as "asexual". Now, if it's the latter, you're correct and it happens a lot. With that said, I stand by my post where I mentioned "she's not getting sex either". The woman wants sex but with "who" is the question. I know my wife wouldn't "hum along" with anyone without intimacy, doesn't matter what kind of security they provide. I think you are the same way.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

Mybabysgotit said:


> I don't think i'm missing anything.* Are you saying "not all women want sex", or "not all women want sex with their husband".* If it's the former, then I would say you're wrong as only 1% of the entire population of the world identify as "asexual". Now, if it's the latter, you're correct and it happens a lot. With that said, I stand by my post where I mentioned "she's not getting sex either". The woman wants sex but with "who" is the question. I know my wife wouldn't "hum along" with anyone without intimacy, doesn't matter what kind of security they provide. I think you are the same way.


Regarding the bolded, both. I know women who have decent sex drives, but not for the men they are/were married to. I know others who simply think sex is either kind of stupid/pointless/silly/meh and are quite happy to have sex as infrequently as possible.

Most people aren't going to identify as asexual. That doesn't mean they have a healthy libido or long for and crave sex. 

"I'm not asexual! I just don't feel the need for it more than a couple times a year."

"I'm not asexual! I just prefer getting my sexual needs met through masturbation rather than partnered sex."


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

MJJEAN said:


> Regarding the bolded, both. I know women who have decent sex drives, but not for the men they are/were married to. I know others who simply think sex is either kind of stupid/pointless/silly/meh and are quite happy to have sex as infrequently as possible.
> 
> Most people aren't going to identify as asexual. That doesn't mean they have a healthy libido or long for and crave sex.
> 
> ...


And if you asked these "asexual" folk if they were in a happy marriage, or if their marriage was a success, how would they answer? I'll bet an astounding percentage would be in the happy or successful camp. Despite a very different answer from their partner, whose view simply doesn't seem to figure in.

I'm sure there are some who are wired in such a way that the "asexual" category is a very sad thing state of affairs for them, centering on a sex problem. But for many, I think that's letting them off the hook too easily. It's not a "sex" problem, it's a living-in-their-own-world problem. There's a lack of empathy or possibly an unspoken & severe aversion caused by trauma. Or perhaps a total and complete lack of understanding what it means to be in a (romantic) relationship, much less married. 

I keep coming up with the most inane comparisons, yet I think they're valid. I don't like doing much of anything in the kitchen, especially cleaning up. Or mopping floors. I avoided it for years. UNTIL... until I didn't. Until I realized that this was time I could spend with my wife, reducing her burden, making her happier, talking with her, just being with her. And today? I look forward to working with her in the kitchen (not cooking; she'd never let me do that, for good reason!). I enjoy it. Because it means something to her. It means something to us. And I enjoy it
EVERY
SINGLE
TIME.

Why the emphasis on every single time? Because it came up in a discussion with my wife the other day, the progression of our sex life from resentful (on her part) to willing to, if we can really get there, desire. And she said, she thinks she's there, because *most* days we have sex, she gets the connection it offers me, she understands that it makes things better for both of us. The other days, she's "willing." And I explained to her, regarding the kitchen stuff, that I can be dead tired, I could be sick even, I could have a thousand things on my to-do list, and it doesn't matter. I want to be in that kitchen with her, helping clean up.

It's a decision I made. Once I made that decision, it didn't take me months and months to ease into it, or get better at it. I never looked back. I agree again, the comparison seems nuts, but I desire to be helping her in the kitchen. Because it brings us together, because it's something I'm doing for her, that she appreciates. That last part. 

THAT
*SHE*
APPRECIATES

That's key. Because our partners may get into this thing of all the stuff they do *for* us, but they're not thinking about what their partner would find special. Rather, it's whatever's within their own comfortable basket of talents that they're willing to offer up. It's not based on anything you desire. It's based totally on their own way of thinking, something they might willingly do for anyone. 

What I do is look for things that SHE will appreciate. Not the "What about how hard I work so you can have the nice things you want?" type of thing, because then it's all about me, not her.


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