# Its Looking Bleak



## oddball (Sep 5, 2012)

I will have been married for 15 years in May, and its looking like this may be the end of the marriage.

We have three daughters, 6,11,13

Key Issues Wife (according to me)

poor communicator
avoids dealing with issues by watching tv all night
Over involved mother 
No sex drive
little affection
No Career Plan or ambition
Believes she is entitled to a high standard of living, which I must supply
I believe she enable our children, as opposed to allowing them to face challenges.

Key Issues ME (according to wife)

I am too uninvolved as a father
I use the F word to often
I am not solving our financial problems
I am a poor example to my children because I dont earn enough, and I fail to take care of them adequately
I drink too much

In November 2012 my wife told me she wanted to quit the marriage, as it was too much "hard work". IN May 2013, I had a major "flip out" - where I completely lost control one night, and shouted and screamed like a madman. I was not violent physically, but it was close. I immediately began IC and that went into MC eventually.

MC was good, and we agreed to work on our marriage and relationship. We had a good(ish) holiday period - although financial stress is an issue, but we communicated around it and found compromise paths.

I run my own social enterprise. I work in slum communities with tourists - using tourism as a development tool. I also run a non profit, which works in the field of education is same slums. We own the business together, and my wife assists in the admin - and does maybe 15 hours a week from home. I have done this since 1997. I have never been an employee.

When my wife met me, I was a committed social activist completing a degree in sociology.It was the tail end of Apartheid, and I took risks to live my values. I was harassed by the security police etc, but never spent long in detention. I always made it clear that my passion was social and economic justice, and that I was not "corporate" I was however ambitious, energetic and passionate.

IN January we lost our biggest client, through no fault of ours. It has placed our business in a very very precarious situation. We own 2 properties - one which is our office and one our house. Both have mortages, and are paid through the salary/rental from said business. Both have equity though.

My wife has made it clear that while she knows its unreasonable, she expects me to take care of our family financially. We live in South Africa, are white, and many white people here accumulated huge wealth as a result of Apartheid. My family were immigrants, so we never did, and her family have always struggled.

My children's peers sometimes come from these wealthy families, who own holiday houses, go abroad yearly etc etc. Somehow my wife appears to think this is normal. I work with poverty, its so veryfar from normal. We live in a good neighbourhood, but we have been struggling financially for about 4 years.

I have become depressed, and have been trying to find other opportunities. Last year I managed to find some consultancy and training work on the side. I have a good reputation in the sector I work, and I have tried to build my "brand". 

Let me just say that life has been pretty grinding of late, and I am feeling it.And yes....sometimes booze is my friend.

When we lost our big client, and wife and I were looking at options, I said to her it was a good time to look at splitting assets etc if she still wants out. NO. She said we must tackle this together.

We started MC again for this year, and I am very worried about my wife. She is emotionally all over the place. She is a strong and resilient woman, but currently she sees things very darkly, and sometimes extremely. She was in a bad way in the session - to the point that the therapist insisted on a one on one with her. When we said we may not be able to pay immediately - she waved the cost. So therapist must be worried.

IN that session my wife said a few things that I don't think I can get over.

IM messing up my children. My children don't respect me because their friends fathers earn more money>
I am not providing well enough (good schools, extra murals, just bought a laptop for my daughter, clothes, eating out, etc are part of our life)
I am a bad role model because I swear 
I should sort this money issue out, but appear I am unable to - FAIL>

It is pretty clear to me that my wife does not respect the choices I have made in life. I dont care for money, but have worked hard to provide. I have a good relationship with my girls. I am not the soft touch, but I take an interest in them. I do stuff with them. I love them.I am very different to her though. 

It would appear that my wife thinks she and the children will better off without me. 

I told her today I have no idea why she is still with me. She obviously sees little value in me. I told her I think we should use this crises period financially to maybe look at divorce - so we sweep clean on all fronts.

She just looked at me and said Fine...if thats what you want.

So that is that then.

I think I should go through with it. It is clear I do not make her happy anymore, and it appears our value systems my be different after all. 

I have also not been very happy., My wife always wanted to start a pre school from home - and we bought a house with facilities for that. IN 7 years she has not opened the school. As finances became more tricky, she told me to solve it. Ive tried, and am trying. Her school could help hugely. But it seems its not on the cards.....She says she has no energy for it.

One of my Love languages is physical touch and affirmation. Not getting much of either.

We are early 40's. I dont want to live a mediocre life of quasi happiness. 

Am I doing the right thing. Who knows?


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## tryingtobebetter (Aug 6, 2012)

I am sorry to read your story.

The decision of course is yours and your wife's as to where you go from here.

You could split but I doubt that would solve all your problems.

If you decide to keep trying, I would advise replacing the alcohol with exercise as a way of de-stressing. It is much more effective, healthier and, depending what you do, almost free .

Good luck


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

I do see your biggest issue being a difference in values. She values money and wants you to contribute a lot of it. She has envy of her peers that have much more than she does and doesn't seem to value your passion for humanitarian things. Why would she not have any energy? She doesn't work. She sounds depressed - I wonder if that's why the counselor wanted to speak to her alone.

Have you spoken about the fact you haven't changed? Your ideals were the same when you met. What are HER love languages? If you aren't meeting hers, she can't/won't meet yours. 

I think you are setting a wonderful example of a good human being for your daughters and providing more than adequately.

I agree you need to back of alcohol as a means to cope. Continue with the MC for sure. She isn't going to have that lifestyle as a single person for sure. You will both suffer financially from a divorce.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

It seems rather cold of her for to put you down for not making enough money. Its like telling you to grow taller. You could alter your approach to your career/business but it will take a while to see if it will pan out. The question is would you even want to do that for someone that sees you as just a dollar sign?

Based on your description you sound middle class. If she 's looking to social climb significantly it will be tough. Does she think that wealthy white South African men are going to be lining up to date a 40 something single mother? Not likely. Plenty of others to choose from. She'd probably be worse off financially if you guys were to split up.

Based on what you say I'm not sure you can turn this thing around. It sounds like the root of her problems with you are that she resents you for not providing the type of lifestyle she feels entitled to. I honestly think if you made a lot of money the F-words and drinking wouldn't even bother her all that much. Its as though resentment about money has spilled over into everything. 

It is not at all appropriate for her to have the kids look down on you as a failure. Wealthier does not equal a better father. The men that shaped who I am today were hard workers but they weren't wealthy.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

Oddball, to put all of your post into a few short words: 

1. You both put your own values and "SELF" ahead of your relationship. 
2. Your values aren't compatible. 

If both of you decide that the relationship is the very most important thing in your lives, you can recover, but if either of you thinks something is more important, it's probably a good idea to talk to an attorney.


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## RoyR (Jan 28, 2014)

Joke: How do you identify a married couple ? The one who is right is the wife, the other one is the man.


Your wife is right in everything. Legally, she has every right to expect EVERYTHING from you and provide nothing. She can walk away with a HUGE check for the rest of her life. You signed a legal contract that was very one-sided, unless you have a prenup.


I can tell by her attitude you don't have a prenup. So you are better off being realistic with yourself about your essential slave status in the relationship. Easier to accept the truth. 

There is no future for you unless you can stop working for 10-15 years and declare bankruptcy. Go out and bury a ton of cash in the ground, dig it up later on...

PS You don't get to see the girls either, UNLESS she says its OK ( Unlikely after the divorce...)...They will train male slaves like you later on in life, that is what they are being raised to do...

I'm sorry you bought into the house in the 'burbs / 2.5 kids / white picket fence / dog / family lie...


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## DvlsAdvc8 (Feb 15, 2012)

^ not the least bit bitter.


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> ^ not the least bit bitter.


:lol:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

RoyR said:


> Joke: How do you identify a married couple ? The one who is right is the wife, the other one is the man.
> 
> 
> Your wife is right in everything. Legally, she has every right to expect EVERYTHING from you and provide nothing. She can walk away with a HUGE check for the rest of her life. You signed a legal contract that was very one-sided, unless you have a prenup.
> ...


Using other people's pain to jump on YOUR soapbox is nothing more than self-gratifying mental masturbation, Roy. I'd encourage you to type less and read more so you can have a BETTER life instead of convincing others to have BITTER ones.


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## oddball (Sep 5, 2012)

Thank you all for your comments.Most were useful.

I think this is a clash of values on some level, and perhaps it is true that we are allowing SELF to override our relationship. I think what concerns me most is that my wife is not a typical "shop till you drop" type woman. She does not spend much on herself. Its all about the children. She appears to see the giving of gifts, occasions to make the kids feel special as very important. Birthdays etc are a big event. She seems to think giving things is a way of showing her love to our children. Its appears to me to come from a place of the subconscious mind - driven perhaps by her own insecurity from her family, and this deep need for financial security.

I see financial security as important, but transient. Things don't last. Relationships of love and joy are not dependent on material things.

I also think she is very depressed. I think I made an error raising this in the state she is in. I think her apathetic response is because she has the feeling of Urrggg...I cant handle this now...so whatever.

What is said cannot be unsaid. I think I will wait and see what happens when she sees the therapist. I know she has love for me, and as much as she and I have hurt one another over the years, there is still a flame of love alight.

Marriage is not easy. Its not for quitters. But sometimes it is important to look at why and how we are living.

I want a conscious life. As far as I know, this is the only one I get. I don't want to wake up at 60 filled with regret.


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## tryingtobebetter (Aug 6, 2012)

It sounds to me that one of her Love Languages is gifts. Perhaps you know that already. 

If that is so, they say that the gifts do not have to be valuable as it is the idea which counts. So maybe a bouquet of wild flowers picked from the roadside, and/or something you have made with your own hands etc.?


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## oddball (Sep 5, 2012)

Her love languages are acts of service and gifts. But the guilt she feels with the kids if she cannot give large and uber expensive gifts is almost compulsive in my mind. The kids dont care as much, but its like she places her value on what she can give.

Money being tight, I try and reign that in. Hence Im a crappy dad. I find this odd.


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## MSP (Feb 9, 2012)

Oh, wow, I can really relate to your post and predicament, Oddball. My wife and I have a very similar dynamic to you two. 

Here are the main issues that I assume your wife is struggling with:

1. You social status is lower than her peers.

2. Your income is lower than her peers.

3. You have quite probably changed from a political bad-boy to more of a businessman (nothing wrong with that in theory, but . . . I'll come back to these points). 

4. The uncertainty of your current financial situation, due to the loss of your client, would be stressing her.

The thing with stress is that there are two responses, fight or flight. You are obviously a fighter. Your wife is quite likely less of one and has, in a sense, internally fled. The stress has caused her to somewhat detach as a kind of survival mechanism. 

The other thing with stress is that you can somewhat compensate for it. That is, we can all handle stressful situations if we have the right support, even without the stressful situation actually being resolved. Thus, I recommend that you find ways to support your wife. I don't mean sucking up or even pampering, necessarily, but there has to be ways that you actively reduce her stress. Make this a high priority.

Secondly, I'm guessing that you are more of a fly-by-the-seat-of-your-pants kinda person than your wife is. Am I right? This is all well and good, but she probably needs more of a reassurance for the future than just hope that things will work out. Women like excitement, but only when they feel that things will be okay in the end. Think of their ideal relationship excitement as being like a rollercoaster: it feels like it will come off the tracks, but they know that it won't. You need sound plans. You need backup plans. You need to show her that you are working on these plans and that things will turn out okay; you have it under control. By all means, fly by the seat of your pants and enjoy the rush of uncertaintly, but do it in your own head. In front of her, be a rock of a man with a plan. Especially, do not let your feelings get the better of you in these matters. You can say, "This stresses me out, but I have this concrete plan that is going to make everything okay". Never say, "Oh, man, I'm stressed out, too, dear, and I'm not sure what will happen". Say the latter and watch your wife look for support elsewhere.

Now, social status and bad-boy-ism. Back when you were protesting or whatever you were doing you had huge sex appeal from your passion and your rebellion. When you rebel against authority you make your own status, rather than measuring yourself against theirs. Now that you are probably playing by the rules, you are being measured against the higher statuses of her peers. I'm not saying you have to become a rebel, but you can't beat them at their own game. It's like sports. You can't play in someone else's style and win when they've been practicing that way their whole lives. You need to excel in your own style. So, find ways that you can demonstrate a higher level of status than them. Be publicly recognized for doing something well. 

As to the actual income. Well, this is the trickiest part. Frankly, I recommend new friends, if possible. Otherwise, comparisons with the old rich will just make her feel unsatisfied. There is not much you can do about that. I wish I had a better answer. 

By the way, I work professionally with international charities. I _might_ be able to help your charity through our organisation (at no cost to you). PM me if you would like to discuss business.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

Hmm... So if gifts is her love language, and she doesn't spend much on herself, and you're a "things don't last" kind of guy, it's no wonder she'd be feeling depressed! She probably experiences your attitude as a lack of love. She's using the kids as her "example" by claiming they need gifts, the more expensive the better, to see that they're loved, when really, she's talking about herself. 

Your drinking seems to be an issue, too. You glossed over it in your post, but I am betting this is a HUGE issue. If money is tight, but you're drinking regularly, I'd bet that just the cost of your booze adds up to a fair chunk of change each month! 

You said that she thinks it's "normal" for people to go on vacations, etc., and that you work around poverty and know that those lifestyles are not "normal." Guess what? You're both right, and you're both mistaken. What is "normal" is whatever standards you can achieve for yourself. For SOME families, poverty is normal. For SOME families, an annual vacation is normal. For SOME families, every child having ponies, chauffers, and maid service is normal. What is YOUR family's normal? What do you want it to be?

I understand why you'd be feeling depressed! You guys are operating from completely different (and incompatible) values, as you said. The question is whether the relationship is important enough for you to adjust your values. For most people, the eventual answer to this question is a "No." I'm hoping that you guys can buck that trend and have some rational discussion, set some goals, and then make them happen.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

KathyBatesel said:


> Your drinking seems to be an issue, too. You glossed over it in your post, but I am betting this is a HUGE issue. If money is tight, but you're drinking regularly, I'd bet that just the cost of your booze adds up to a fair chunk of change each month!


Stop the drinking and direct some of the money toward gifts for her. It appears that small, but frequent gifts, such as flowers, a candy bar, etc. that show you are thinking about her, really meet this need for some women. 

See if she is one before you write things of..


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## oddball (Sep 5, 2012)

MSP that is a very useful and thought provoking post. Thank you for the considered response. Thanks to other valuable contributors to.

You describe me pretty well, and I the social status thing is well described. I think my wife is really kicking against the fact that we are just ordinary middle class people. Perhaps she thought I was destined for greatness when she met me. I'm sharp, articulate, a leader.

Now I am no more the bad boy. Just a balding 42 year old dude with an underlying marxist understanding of the world trying to hustle a living.

It is also about fight and flight. I am a fighter, but to be honest at the moment I'm scared shirtless. I have been playing scenarios over and over in my mind, on the scribble pad - what to do. I am getting clarity slowly - and I concur with your thoughts that I need to be stronger as a MAN. Not show the fear. And give firm and strong direction. Ive done this before, and need to dig deep and do it again.

As for new friends. Most of our friends are old comrades or academic types. Many are not well off and struggling too. Its the school peers that are the problem. And frankly I live in the most unequal society in the world, so the super rich are structurally entrenched. They're an inescapable part of an unjust economy and society. But I will learn to love them as my neighbors I guess.

Yes to giving some small gifts. Its a really small thing I can do for her. I do love her. She has been my partner for 20 years. There is a lot of history and she is a nice person. We are compatible on many levels - but now under financial strain some of our differences are being amplified.

We spent a bit of time looking at scenarios this morning. We agreed to keep working together on our future - for now. We both acknowledge some issues we need to address. But we agreed its best to fight in the same corner for now. For the sake of the kids. Its not the happiest of times, but I think we are both a bit "off" at the moment due to everything going on - and perhaps its not the best time to making big decisions about our marriage. We agreed if we had less financial stress, we would probably not be having the discussion on divorce. Money stress is a leading cause of divorce. I can understand why now!

OK Kathy - the booze. Yes the booze is a problem - not so much from a cost point of view (wine is cheap here and its good!) but from the example I am setting - and its a depressant. I'm not a sloppy drunk, but I do drink every night. A couple of glasses to unwind. If its a party - I will give it a good go - every time. My wife is usually designated driver. Its so easy and has become a habit. The advice to cut it down and replace it with healthier living option - EXERCISE - makes perfect sense. Though it probably will require a change of habits and lifestyle.

Thanks again


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## tryingtobebetter (Aug 6, 2012)

Oddball

Glad it is looking a bit better.

If you do decide to exercise you may surprise yourself by the results.

When I was 40 I injured my knee playing tennis, wondered if I would ever walk well again.

I went to a physio who prescribed remedial exercises. He said to me 'you know why you see all these old people tottering about, hardly able to walk. It is not so much because they are old but they have not taken any serious exercise for 50 years'

Then I started swimming (after a 20 year gap). After a year or two I moved to the gym as well.

I decided I wanted to take my daughters hill walking. We planned a 3000 foot climb. Aged 46 I went up that hill/mountain more easily than I had when I was a fit 20 year old.

It is amazing how fit you can get in your 40s if you make the effort.

These events changed my life for ever, reducing my stress and boosting my self-esteem greatly.

All the best!


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