# Staying for the wrong reasons......



## bacagain (Sep 9, 2013)

Once you are cheated on you go through a roller coster of emotions. Its not even you or even the advice you would a friend if they were telling you it happend to them. 

- do you stay for financial reasons?
- do you ask him to leave to punish him?
- do you demand full discloser on everything, i.e, passwords, etc
- if he refuses do you demand he leave then?
-do you stay for the kids and their stabiltiy?
-is it possible serial cheaters change?
- how do you get over it with out counseling if you do stay?
-how do you even process the steps of forgiving when you dont trust them AT ALL
-are you in denial ?
-if you stay what demands should you set forth?
-IS ANY OF THIS WORTH IT???
- should you just cut your loses and leave


----------



## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

I'll just answer this from my perspective/experience. Everyone's situation is different.



> - do you stay for financial reasons?


Right now, yes I am. I don't have much of a choice. I wasn't working (pregnant on DDay) and have had to raise our baby and first by myself. Now that he's back, I'm saving money for a deposit on an apartment and furniture. 



> - do you ask him to leave to punish him?


Partially yes. I put up with being falsely accused, lied about, lied to, not truested for 9 years before he cheated on me. I was mad as hell. I also needed to be alone to process the pain I was in and to focus on me, the baby, my oldest. Having him around when he wasn't remorseful and blaming me wasn't conducive to that.



> - do you demand full discloser on everything, i.e, passwords, etc


I told him I wanted it but didn't demand it. He hasn't complied so I haven't moved forward towards an R. It's non-negotiable. He also has to be wanting to do it for the right reasons. He's not there yet and I won't force him. However, I also won't even consider being with him until/unless he does.



> - if he refuses do you demand he leave then?


If I could/I would. I was forced to have him move back in for monetary reasons and pressure from his family. He wouldn't be here right now if it was an option for me to get him to leave again.




> -do you stay for the kids and their stabiltiy?


Yes, this too. The separation shattered my oldest. With dad at home, he is much better emotionally and mentally. Wheras he was so depressed he wanted to die before. My youngest was estranged from dad until six months old and now they have bonded as father and son so it's good for dad to be with the both of them. I also don't have family of my own so I need the help with parenting and just to get a break. Also so I can search for a job so I can support myself and our children financially when/if I do move.



> -is it possible serial cheaters change?


I'm sure it happens but I'm not going to be the betrayed spouse that waits to find out. I can forgive one affair. (Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice...)



> - how do you get over it with out counseling if you do stay?


I mentally and emotionally detach. I close my heart off to him and don't think about "us". I consider myself separated though I am monogamous or abstinent. I read affair and psychology books, go to individual counseling, read TAM and other support boards etc. to heal myself whether the relationship can be healed or not. I get out and live my life, pamper myself, exercise, meet new people and invest my time and energy into my children. I also prepare for being self-sufficient and moving out for when/if the sh!t hits the fan, so job hunt, save money and research educational programs.



> -how do you even process the steps of forgiving when you dont trust them AT ALL


I separate them both. Forgiveness doesn't = trust. That being said, I haven't done either yet. I can't trust him. He's proven it by cheating, by lying and now by not giving me transparency. Parts of me forgives him but I believe it's a process and not a one-time deal. It takes time. Whether we R'd or not, I hope I can forgive him one day. That doesn't mean it's for him. It's for me and I want to let it go whether I leave for good or not.



> -are you in denial ?


No. I see clearly - much clearer now than ever before. I know we are not in the position to R. He hasn't done what I need him to do. He is slowly coming around on his own time. His time will run out when I can afford to move and know I can support our kids on my own. When that time comes, if he hasn't grown enough to do what I need him to do, I'm gone for good. I watch his actions and don't listen to the words. Actions speak louder and right now I'm listening to the message that I need to protect myself, plan for my future and move on. His "I love you's" and "I'll never do it again." and "I'm sorry's" don't make a difference when the actions say, "I don't really care."



> -if you stay what demands should you set forth?


Whatever you need as a BS to heal. Some things I need, if I was to pursue an R (and still haven't got) from my rugsweeping WS are:


Transparency and access to accounts, mail, texts etc. - no more secrets.
A complete admission of all unfaithful behaviour and timeline to me;
The end of relationships/friendships with people that he caused to be enemies of our relationship (friends he trash-talked about me to and that supported his infidelity as a result)
To attend marriage counseling;
To read books about affairs and do exercises with me;
To take initiative for healing our marriage (common law);
To read and adhere the advice of relationship books from here on out - even when things are good
A complete admission to his parents and siblings about the lies he told about me
Delete anyone he's crosssed boundaries with off of Facebook
Delete and throw away porn collection (I used to be okay with porn but he's ruined it for me)
Verbal reassurances: ("I love you." "You look beautiful today." Thinking of you" text messages, "I'm sorry")
Physical reassurances: Hugs, kisses, massages, touches throughout the day, holding me etc.
Small gifts and tokens of affection "just because" to show me he's thinking of me when we're apart
Listening without defensiveness and empathizing, showing me he understands
No more trash-talk, *ever* to friends, family etc. Honour me, honour us and our relationship. If he has complaints, tell me, journal about it, join a forum like TAM or a counselor.
Going on dates alone and spending quality time
Giving me time away from the kids to do things I enjoy


[/QUOTE]-IS ANY OF THIS WORTH IT???
- should you just cut your loses and leave[/QUOTE]

It's only worth it if both are willing to do what it takes to heal the marriage/relationship and make the new relationship BETTER than the old one. The WS must be remorseful and do the heavy lifting. The BS also has a lot of work to do and while it's not fair, they need to do it. 

I hate to say it but the WS is 100% responsible for the affair. The WS and BS are both 100% responsible for 50% of the problems in the marriage that led up to the betrayal. The WS has to be willing to help BS heal. The BS must be willing to heal. It feels safer to be jaded forever even if you have a remorseful spouse but a healthy marriage that does not make.

If you can't do it, leave. I don't think my WS is capable of what I need to heal our marriage so I'm healing alone. I won't wait for him to make my life better. I am giving him a slight chance to catch up but I won't wait for him or hold my breath. The clock is ticking. Life is too short.


----------



## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

I read your earlier thread.

You are in complete denial.

Your WH is so wayward and serial that you will never have a moment of peace in your life if you stay with him. He treats your M with nothing but contempt.

Stop waffling! Save yourself and your children!


----------



## bacagain (Sep 9, 2013)

I am in complete denial and I am waffling. I am just being stupid because of how mad my kids hurt in my first marriage and that divorce. Seeing my son have any pain just kills me. I know he will never change. I know he will not give me full discloser and honestly, if he does, I will look every day like a crazy woman. My life will be filled with obession to investigate. Its like I KNOW what my gut tells me but I still ask the questions over and over like a idiot. If I was my friend I'd smack me in the head. 

He's not going to change cause he was never the person I thought he was to begin with. I dont even think I want him to do what I ask because the degree of cheating that went on in my marriage will NEVER be forgotten. I need shock treatment or something.


----------



## JustGrinding (Oct 26, 2012)

bacagain said:


> - do you stay for financial reasons? No.
> 
> - do you ask him to leave to punish him? No.
> - do you demand full discloser on everything, i.e, passwords, etc Without delay.
> ...


I'm a person who entered into reconciliation, only to find out that, well . . . it's complicated. The surge of emotions you're riding will eventually subside and you'll find yourself married to an extremely flawed individual who has betrayed you in the worst-possible way.

As a person who enthusiastically entered reconciliation, that now finds himself in a protracted state of suspended animation, I typically recommend dissolution.

For a serial cheater, I'm inclined to upgrade that to a strong recommendation.


----------



## Pepper123 (Nov 27, 2012)

MT --

My heart breaks for you. The denial that I think that Alte Dame is talking about is not the infidelity itself, but that your life is about to change drastically, and you can't yet come to terms with that. That someone that promised to cherish you basically sh** all over you. 

My ex didn't cheat, but he used to strangle me into unconsciousness. It took me a really long time to accept that I could never re-gain his trust, and I left. I stayed 8 long grueling years.


----------



## bacagain (Sep 9, 2013)

Miss Taken- sounds like financially is the only reason till you get on your feet then you are leaving. Your disconnect in many of the ways I feel today. How you describe the mentally and emotionally detachment is probably the only way I’ve been able to deal and get back up every day. I pamper myself, and invest my time and energy into my children. All of that. I don’t think it’s all punishment on my part. If I dig deep inside of me I know I will never be able to fully trust him or be his “friend” or happy like I use to. I’ll never really really get back to that place. Anything other than that place is an unhappy place for me so I’m just fooling myself. 

I think this affair hurt my oldest daughter ( 19 ) the most believe it or not. I always thought the younger kids would suffer but my oldest went through HELL when I left her dad and being a single mom for 6 years after was hard on her. She absolutely trusted my new husband and loved having that family life back. She broke down worse than I did even on my worse day. At the same time, I don’t want her to think this is how you live your life. Staying with someone who did what they did to you then sweep it under the rug. I hurt her if I stay and I hurt her if I go. Then my son? He’s only 1 ½ but what does he go through as he grows up? LORD!!!!!!!!!!!! 

I’m also in denial that he’ll change. He will not. So true, forgiveness doesn’t = trust. Maybe I just need to forgive so that I CAN move on with some peace. 

Just Grinding, the lottery is probably better chance for me to invest my faith in then him changing. I’m not sure if it’s worth it. Can’t speak to that today. 

I know I should leave. I know it. I just have to do it. 

I’ve asked him for a sit down to talk about a few things. I have a list of things I want to discuss. I will post his responses here. I can tell you know, transparency will not be an option. For one, even if he gives me his password he will have 2 other passwords hidden that I don’t know about. Also, while he was having his affair (s) he said loud and clear, “if this bothers you and it means trouble in my marriage then I will NOT talk to this person even as friends”. Then the next day they would meet up in another sleazy hotel room. So our talk……….it’s really about me getting things off my chest but I will ask for opinions here nonetheless!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

bacagain said:


> Miss Taken- sounds like financially is the only reason till you get on your feet then you are leaving. Your disconnect in many of the ways I feel today. How you describe the mentally and emotionally detachment is probably the only way I’ve been able to deal and get back up every day.


Financial reasons is *my only* reason to be here right now. He's fully aware I'm saving money to move out. However, I don't think that he realizes just how serious I am and his game of entitlement (lack of transparency and commitment ensues). He wants me back and I think he thinks if he's sweet to me by doing XYZ, I'll rug-sweep the affairs. 


I hate to quote Doctor Phil, (Mocktor Phil) here but, "You teach people how to treat you."

Over our 9 years together, I taught him that he could mistreat me and be easily forgiven by acting sweet for a while. I forgot his misdeeds and just got over things and was a doormat. So I can see why he doesn't take me seriously and unfortunately, that will be his undoing. What worked in the past will not/does not work now. That girl is gone and he killed her. My heart is closed. I used to be a pushover and propitiated myself to maintain the status quo but not anymore. Now I'm a cat trapped in a corner, ready to scratch the sh!t out of you if you threaten me. My old defense mechanisms are back in full swing. It's not totally healthy but it's what I learned to do to survive a wretched childhood. Like I said, old habits die hard.



bacagain said:


> I think this affair hurt my oldest daughter ( 19 ) the most believe it or not. I always thought the younger kids would suffer but my oldest went through HELL when I left her dad and being a single mom for 6 years after was hard on her. She absolutely trusted my new husband and loved having that family life back. She broke down worse than I did even on my worse day. At the same time, I don’t want her to think this is how you live your life. Staying with someone who did what they did to you then sweep it under the rug. I hurt her if I stay and I hurt her if I go. Then my son? He’s only 1 ½ but what does he go through as he grows up? LORD!!!!!!!!!!!!


I do believe it. My son is only 9 now but it shattered him. He was such a happy, well-adjusted kid before this but the combination of us splitting, a new sibling, my betrayal-induced depression, changing schools etc. just killed that. It really sucks that dad has to live with us right now because when I leave, it will crush him again and we're just starting to see change in him for the better by having us all under the same roof. We're both good parents (when he puts our kids first) and co-parent well. My son does best in a two-parent home.



bacagain said:


> I’m also in denial that he’ll change. He will not.


I do think change is possible for WS to change but I don't think I'm in denial that he will. He won't change until he knows he has to and right now, he doesn't think he has to so he won't. I can understand your denial though – in fact, too well. I spent two years in denial about him before I discovered he was cheating so I don't have time for it anymore. 

I know deep down that he is a good person and because of that, he does have the propensity to change but he is immensely flawed. I also have seen small changes coming over time but they're not enough and too far and few between for me to care or have any hope for "us". I'm done with the "hope and pray" method I won't put my eggs into that basket again and that's why I'm saving money to leave.

If by some miracle or an ice cube's chance in hell, he sees the light and turns his sh!t around, it better not be too late. Once I sign a new lease, I'm gone forever. I think he's trying to call my bluff and doesn't think I mean it. Sadly, he doesn't realize that I'm not bluffing. Not this time. I was already done last August when I kicked him out. Nothing has changed about that except for these current, temporary living arrangements. 

If we were childless, I would have high tailed it out of her so fast his head would spin. That we have children and the way my oldest handles change, is the biggest reason I would even consider an R. BUT ONLY IF HE WAS DOING WHAT IS REQUIRED and right now he's not so R is not an option. As much as I don't want to hurt my older son, (the baby would be fine as he's so young) I can't live like this either. I can't turn the other cheek while he cheats and abuses me. It will kill me and I can't martyr myself to spare my kids. I hate that I'm put into this position. Either way, I lose or my kid loses. Still, I know that kids can and will and often do adjust. I am prepared to do whatever I have to, to help my son adjust and heal when I leave. I am not prepared to live out the rest of my life with a cheating man that does not value or respect me.


----------



## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

Sorry, don’t mean to thread jack and this is going to be long.



Pepper123 said:


> MT --
> 
> My heart breaks for you. The denial that I think that Alte Dame is talking about is not the infidelity itself, but that your life is about to change drastically, and you can't yet come to terms with that. That someone that promised to cherish you basically sh** all over you.


I’m not sure but I didn’t think Alt Dame’s denial comment was for me. That’s why I didn’t respond. I don’t think I’m in denial. I don’t see hope for an R for us. Not now at least and that’s why we are not in an R. I know that if we did R, it would be a false one. Especially with the lack of transparency. I am not blind to the fact that his refusal to give me his passwords or at least his reluctance to do so means he’s most likely talking to other women, watching porn or badmouthing me to family and friends behind my back. So there’s no way in hell I’d go back to him now. Those with nothing to hide, hide nothing and since he's hiding, there is no us.

Also, not a day goes by that doesn’t flash back to August 2012 and every ****ty, hurtful thing XWS has said or done or neglectfully not done since to atone for it. It’s a roller coaster but I fully accept that it happened. He did this. It sucks. I wish it didn’t happen but it did. I can’t unsee what I’ve seen or unhear what I’ve heard. I know change is going to come (some for the better, some for the worst) when I leave.. My life has already changed drastically. We were physically separated from Aug 2012 until July 2013. The only reason we’re not physically separated anymore is for financial reasons. I simply cannot afford to move at this point. If I could, we would not be living together right now.

Still, the time I had away from him helped me to learn to live alone. I was very dependent before. I felt unsafe not having a man at home at night to protect me and the kids. I learned how to be the protector. I learned how to do “man-jobs” around the house by myself. I got out and got a life. I balanced a budget without falling back on him or asking for more other than the child-support I was entitled to. I even dated a guy casually (didn’t sleep with him) and made a lot more friends. I’ve already been alone and had to single parent a newborn with no outside help and older child by myself. It was/is hard but I know my strength and that I can do it on my own.

Right now I’m here because of finances. I can’t move until I get a job. Provided I am re-employed in my field, I’m not worried about money once I leave because I out earned him two years ago when I was working and will do so again. 

The roles we play in this game called “us” have also changed since he moved back in. It’s funny because he was the one during and prior to the affair that withdrew. Now that he wants back in (on his entitled, rug-sweeping terms mind you), I have completely shut down. He chases me around the house and outside to try to make contact but I just can’t let him in. I spend much of my time in a different room and he follows. We live like roommates, except for the times I was drunk and needed a sexual release and had sex (I was going to write “was intimate”) with him but it lacked any intimacy or feeling on my part. Actually it was good sex but it was so twisted, selfish and anger-driven on my part... but that’s another thread...

Even if my WS was doing all of the right things, I think there is an ice cube’s chance in hell that we could R. I grew up in a very dysfunctional environment with every kind of abuse and neglect imaginable at the hands of my mom, her ex husband, her different boyfriends etc. Then I ended up in relationships where I was abused before I met my XWS. So needless to say, my trust of people – especially men was HUGE for me and he was the first and only man that I fully trusted and fully loved, even when our relationship was sh!tty. He seriously knew everything about me... the good, the bad, the ugly. I can’t believe how much I trusted, valued and admired him before his cheating. I do accept and realize how he sh!t on my love and vulnerabilities and I just don’t think I could love the dog that bit me again. I’m afraid to love him so choose not to. His inability to do the heavy lifting is just further reason for me not to try. I loved him with all of me before. I would have died for him.

His affair absolutely shattered me. I was a wreck for months. Even thinking of suicide (I’d never act on it, I could never leave my children) but there was a time that I seriously thought about hanging myself off of our back deck on a daily basis. I still cry about it once in a while and get mad but it’s not as intense as it was. I have mostly good days and am so much stronger and happier than I was, even in February when I was at my worst. Right now, my heart is closed. My pendulum sways between anger and apathy and it’s horrible to say this but I don’t think I’d care right now if he died. Except for the impact it’d have on our kids as I was orphaned as a child too. At least then, I’d be free legally and morally to move back home and be with the select extended relatives that I do have that love and support me and that are healthy to be around. It’s harsh to say that I wouldn’t care if he died but the man I loved died last August and I don’t think he’s ever coming back.



Pepper123 said:


> My ex didn't cheat, but he used to strangle me into unconsciousness. It took me a really long time to accept that I could never re-gain his trust, and I left. I stayed 8 long grueling years.


I’ve been there too and forgetting about this relationship, I’m so scared of the one/ones I have in the future. When I met my XWS, I felt so glad to know and be with a man that didn’t cheat, didn’t abuse drugs, didn’t hit me and was a good father (he still is a good father) to our kids. My XWS does have a lot of redeeming qualities, such as being artistic, a good dad, self-motivated when it comes to goals, he’s funny, good-looking, intelligent, good around the house/with cars, charming and can be very generous and supportive. However, the things I discovered about him in the last year – and the things I realized that were always dysfunctional or even abusive, really has my confidence shattered in terms of picking a mate. I think my “picker” is broken. I thought I was healed from the past abuses, the dysfunction and abandonment of my dad etc. and had made a good choice in a man. Now I fear that any guy I end up with will end up hurting me or turning out to be a Jekyll and Hyde like XWS. I’m afraid to trust anyone again – ex WS notwithstanding.


----------



## Pepper123 (Nov 27, 2012)

Miss Taken said:


> I’m afraid to trust anyone again – ex WS notwithstanding.


I feel the exact same way... My ex said he could never lay a hand on a woman. Two years later he threatened to kill me. 

Although he never cheated (that I know about) the pain that so many on the CWI boards go through resonate me, as it seems that the recovery process is so similar. I am so sorry that you have gone through both. 

For a long time, I blamed myself... then my IC had me take a class on co-dependency... and it finally made sense to me why I pick the people that I do.


----------



## bacagain (Sep 9, 2013)

This is my second time around. I cant tell you how scared i am of hurting my kids again. I think thats one of a few reasons why I question and question the obvious. 

I like the quote……..you DO teach people how to treat you. Im stuck in that I don’t know if I want him to even try to change. I mean, great for the kids but I don’t know what in the hell I’d have to see in order for me to trust this man again. I can get all the passwords and pins he has and I know I’ll STILL wonder if he has others. I also don’t know if I want to know if he’ll change because its starting to feel good to be in denial. This way I have zero expectations of him and I wont get hurt again. So as long as Im shut down and expect the worst then there is no chance for hurt. So in a strange way I’d rather him stay the liar that he is……………………


The details in the emails were so deep that I’ll run them over and over in my head. Its one thing if you are cheated on and you think, “well, he just used her etc “ but this man asked her to marry him MULTIPLE TIMES , told her he resented me, saw her any free minute he got, called her the minute I left the house, dinners, gifts , you name it. Its like I was the other woman and he was in love with his mistress. All the while Im at home taking care of HIS kids from his previous marriage and taking care of his baby son. Every time I even attempt to R even in my head I get an anxiety attack.


----------



## bacagain (Sep 9, 2013)

This is my second time around. I cant tell you how scared i am of hurting my kids again. I think thats one of a few reasons why I question and question the obvious. 

I like the quote……..you DO teach people how to treat you. Im stuck in that I don’t know if I want him to even try to change. I mean, great for the kids but I don’t know what in the hell I’d have to see in order for me to trust this man again. I can get all the passwords and pins he has and I know I’ll STILL wonder if he has others. I also don’t know if I want to know if he’ll change because its starting to feel good to be in denial. This way I have zero expectations of him and I wont get hurt again. So as long as Im shut down and expect the worst then there is no chance for hurt. So in a strange way I’d rather him stay the liar that he is……………………


The details in the emails were so deep that I’ll run them over and over in my head. Its one thing if you are cheated on and you think, “well, he just used her etc “ but this man asked her to marry him MULTIPLE TIMES , told her he resented me, saw her any free minute he got, called her the minute I left the house, dinners, gifts , you name it. Its like I was the other woman and he was in love with his mistress. All the while Im at home taking care of HIS kids from his previous marriage and taking care of his baby son. Every time I even attempt to R even in my head I get an anxiety attack.


----------



## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Let me just clarify what I meant when I said that the OP is in denial.

Her description of her WH's cheating is so egregious, so serial, so filled with mendacity and so complete, that any questions that hint of her staying in the M at all represent denial of the severity of the problem she faces.

She is very concerned about the children, but the situation is what it is. The children are going to have to live with some fallout. That is unavoidable given the magnitude of his betrayal and the serial cheater personality that she currently lives with. For her children and herself, OP should kick him out and file for divorce immediately. I'm all for reconciling and forgiving, but some things are simply irretrievable.


----------



## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

Pepper123 said:


> I feel the exact same way... My ex said he could never lay a hand on a woman. Two years later he threatened to kill me.
> 
> Although he never cheated (that I know about) the pain that so many on the CWI boards go through resonate me, as it seems that the recovery process is so similar. I am so sorry that you have gone through both.


I do think the pain is the same. There are a lot of parallels in terms of the mind-fvcking, emotional abuse and manipulations in terms of unfaithful or violent relationships.

It's sick to say (and I don't want to minimize your pain) but for me, when I was in a physically abusive relationship, it was in some ways easier to overcome. i.e.) In that I knew I was being abused when his fist hit me in the face. There was no lying about it. But the deception I had to endure when my XWS lied to me about cheating added a different element of cruelty even though he's never once hit me or raised a fist even as a threat to me. 

Still, the deception just gets to me even today. Not just betrayed. I feel violated. Every time I gave my body to him was because I trusted him, loved him and wanted to express love and lust for him. Having been abused as a kid, we still ended up having (what I deemed, a healthy and fulfilling sex life) prior to the A. I would have never went to bed with him during the A had I known what was going on. Knowing that he slept with another woman and then came and slept with me (not the same day but still) is disgusting. It makes me feel dirty.

I can't even imagine being _intimate_ with him right now. We've had sex since (hate sex?!) but no intimacy and I had to be drunk to do it. When I'm sober there's just no way.



Pepper123 said:


> For a long time, I blamed myself... then my IC had me take a class on co-dependency... and it finally made sense to me why I pick the people that I do.


I can totally see codependency played it's role in my relationship prior to the A. The A was my wake-up call, no counseling needed (to break realize the codependency issues). I've also recognized how I developed those behaviours/thought processes while growing up (to protect myself) and in prior relationships.

I don't want to claim to be cured but I know I've got a much better handle on this part of myself. In a sick way, I needed the A to happen so I could break free from it. It took our DDay for me to realize that this is not my fault and I deserve better. Over the years, I put up with a lot of bullsh!t and let him blame me for a lot of bullsh!t that I didn't deserve. I was such a people-pleaser and my happiness revolved around making him happy. Now I'm happy for me. I will never return to that dark place.

My self-esteem, confidence and self-worth is also much higher. I'm also much gentler to me than I was. I do worry about learning to pick better men though and I know I will need to be a lot more vigilant in the future of noticing the red flags. I don't even care if I overreact because I rather be safe than sorry. Enough is enough.


----------



## Pepper123 (Nov 27, 2012)

Miss Taken said:


> I do worry about learning to pick better men though and I know I will need to be a lot more vigilant in the future of noticing the red flags. I don't even care if I overreact because I rather be safe than sorry. Enough is enough.


The only boyfriend that I have had since I left my marriage is someone I dated for just under 3 months. He always wanted me to come to his house (it was a 25 minute drive from mine). In 3 months he was in my house once. That made me start looking at other things about him, and it didn't take long before I realized how selfish he was in many capacities. I broke up with him with no regrets whatsoever.

In a group therapy class I did, we always said, "When you see crazy coming, cross the street." 

It is the same logic as don't date a past cheater, abuser, etc. That first inclination that you feel... trust it, because you are probably right.


----------



## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

bacagain said:


> This is my second time around. I cant tell you how scared i am of hurting my kids again. I think thats one of a few reasons why I question and question the obvious.
> 
> I like the quote……..you DO teach people how to treat you. Im stuck in that I don’t know if I want him to even try to change. I mean, great for the kids but I don’t know what in the hell I’d have to see in order for me to trust this man again. I can get all the passwords and pins he has and I know I’ll STILL wonder if he has others. I also don’t know if I want to know if he’ll change because its starting to feel good to be in denial. This way I have zero expectations of him and I wont get hurt again. So as long as Im shut down and expect the worst then there is no chance for hurt. So in a strange way I’d rather him stay the liar that he is……………………
> 
> ...


I agree with altdame about the fallout when it comes to your kids. Either way they will lose out. It is overstated that kids are resilient (the truth is, some are some aren't and some are more than others). However, they can heal from this, as can you if you get help for them. I think you are facing yet another tough decision since you already had to leave a marriage but if your H is as altdame described, you need to do right by you and your kids. Sometimes doing the right thing hurts like hell.

And re, the anxiety attacks when thinking of R... I think your body is trying to tell you what your head cannot yet accept. You need to listen to it. I'm sorry you're here. Either way it's hell.


----------



## bacagain (Sep 9, 2013)

I am very much in the denial of the severity of the problems I face. I agree 100%. This is why I need to change my therapist. I need to hear this over and over. I am “on hold” if you will because I don’t want to face the inevitable. I don’t want to face the reality of who I really am married to. As sure as I am of that though, I am sure he will regret many things when he is gone. He may be a serial cheater but he is also the biggest wishy washy loof you’ve ever met. Extremely intelligent , a hell of a lawyer but the biggest push over you can ever come across. He’s such a fool . Even though he is very much the manipulator and plays it off like he’s insecure he knows exactly what he’s doing when he’s cheating however, the flip side……he’s so easily manipulated himself! …………..I can go on and one. Im extremely concerned about the children not only because of what we will all face but this man makes horrible decisions and I don’t trust him any more out of my home then I do in the home. They will pay for it all. Yes, they will have to live with some fallout. As much as I try, Im going to have to pull the trigger eventually. 

I also needed to hear “I'm all for reconciling and forgiving, but some things are simply irretrievable”. I’ve heard worse stories, like my friend who’s husband had a another child in his affair who’s the same age as her youngest son. ( still together). My other friend who has no idea her husband has a 13 year old son in another state that he sees every month when he goes away for “business”. He’s cheated, she found out and they are still together. She doesn’t know about the son but knows about the other affairs. So sometimes I say, “am I capable of holding out?” 
Truth is………that’s me telling me………holding out means this is how you will live forever because he’s never going to change. 

For all I know he’s cheating on me as I write this post.


----------



## punkinhead (Mar 19, 2013)

Bacagain. I'm so sorry you're here. Listen to your intuition and your brain. They will tell you what your heart doesn't want to hear. I'm praying for you. Hang in there.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Perhaps you value yourself so little because of the company you keep. You have two friends who have stayed with WH's who have children with their AP's. One of them doesn't know about the child, but knows about the affairs. These are serious judgment issues & I don't mean to be harsh, but how is it that you know about a 13-yo son of your friend's WH, but she does not know? You are friends? Don't friends talk to friends?


----------



## Pepper123 (Nov 27, 2012)

I don't think that is a fair statement at all, Alte Dame...


----------



## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

How is it unfair? We advise people all the time on honesty. If you knew that a friend of yours had knowledge like that about your H how would you react?


----------



## Pepper123 (Nov 27, 2012)

Would I want to know... Yes, I would. But I don't think the OP not telling her friend means she values herself less as a person. Some people simply don't feel it is their place to eff with other people's lives. Me personally... I could not keep that secret. But I would not judge anyone else that chose differently, as I don't feel it is my place.


----------



## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

I have no problem agreeing to disagree with you.


----------



## Pepper123 (Nov 27, 2012)

Me neither  much to my shame and dismay, I've was once an AP... And my very best friend is a big reason I was able to walk away. After leaving my abusive marriage, I was too messed up to know how toxic it was without her.


----------



## bacagain (Sep 9, 2013)

I'm sorry I should have clarified. The women who doesn't know about the 13 year old son is not actually my friend. The husband is a friend / business partner of my husband and its his wife that doesn't know. The only interaction I've ever had with her is that she came to my baby shower and she's been to church a few times to listen to my husband "preach". I should have been more clear. The first person I mentioned is a neighbor who after hearing her story should be on the site herself. She needs the support. My question was not so much about my friends do it so why can't I.... I was just talking about people in general out there that live their lives like that. How do they do it and why? Are the kids better or worse? 

Anyway I'm submitting this post at 4:09 am and I've been awake since 1:30 am about to lose my mind cause I woke up and my mi d has been racing ever since. I know I need to talk to this man and if nothing else let all this out. I chose next week cause its my daughters birthday this week and I don't want to ruin my mood further by talking about this to him. She's happy and I want to be "happy" for her and with her best I can.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bacagain (Sep 9, 2013)

So as I stated above I DID NOT sleep last night. The mind is something awfull at times. I dont know how Im functioning today at all. Interesting how when he even gets a small hint that I am headed towards the door he freaks out. Even though temporary it does bring me slight joy ( not exactly joy but something ) that he is on edge. I dont fool myself into thinking the edge is do to fear of losing ME , its more about the whole picture. Losing his family AGAIN, his children from previous marriage that already went through so much, his baby, etc etc. Also since he was exposed to this degree he cant just go to be with this other mistress just like that so its really a selfish edge. Not an edge out of love for me. Although I wish it was. Even though I would still want out atleast I would like to feel something is or was there!


----------



## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

bacagain said:


> Also since he was exposed to this degree he cant just go to be with this other mistress just like that so its really a selfish edge.


Do you know whether WH's psych is among the people he got exposed to? Do you know whether he was already aware of his faked double life?

bacagain, your husband pathology runs deeper than the cheating, he gets so many personality disorders traits that is hard to point out what trumps what. A serious psych assesment would make professionals toes curl. His capacity to run this 3 ring circus called his life is scary; church? seminary? A convenient facade and narrative.
IE. Given main OW span two marriages you put a huge value to this relationship but I believe you value it more than him: deep down he doesn't buy this story he has with OW at all, neither OW. Don't forget he never was faithful to anyone, not even her, she wasn't likely. They already tried to make fantasy real life (likely forced by circunstances) and both shortcomings arised very soon becasue they couldn't be hidden to each other. They relinked the fantasy version of "them" becasue it's what their limited capacity of living real lives drive. They are perfectly aware of it, It's the real bond between them, the mutual ultimate acceptance of who they are, two very meesed up individuals very aware they doesn't possess certain qualities which everyone understand as human so they learned to mimic.


----------



## bacagain (Sep 9, 2013)

I don’t know if he was one of the people exposed. I know of some but not all. There were so many and I don’t know many of them. Like someone else said here, I doubt his Psych knows everything he needs to know. I think my H doesn’t want to hear the truth. The truth in his own head. He knows his thoughts don’t make sense to anyone and I think he hides it even from his Psych so he doesn’t have to hear or accept or acknowledge reality. I think he quickly dismisses reality and sweeps it all under the rug and continues. 

I truly love what you wrote here as its put in much better verbiage then I could write. 

"They already tried to make fantasy real life (likely forced by circumstances) and both shortcomings arised very soon because they couldn't be hidden to each other. They relinked the fantasy version of "them" because it's what their limited capacity of living real lives drive. They are perfectly aware of it, It's the real bond between them, the mutual ultimate acceptance of who they are, two very messed up individuals very aware they doesn't possess certain qualities which everyone understand as human so they learned to mimic"

This sums up what I feel about them both exactly. 

Yes he does have many personality "disorders" that you can’t seem to focused on any one in particular. It might be part of his manipulation or part of his ignorance but he is also a very nice and generous person. Will do anything for you. He never treated be madly so I had no reason to suspect or expect he was doing or could do any of this. If anything I thought he was on the naive side. I assume this is part of a psychopath? to be charming and gullible and there for you whenever you need it? Lord, was any part of him real or IS any part of him real??????


----------



## Moulin (Jul 30, 2013)

bacagain said:


> I am in complete denial and I am waffling. I am just being stupid because of how mad my kids hurt in my first marriage and that divorce. Seeing my son have any pain just kills me. I know he will never change. I know he will not give me full discloser and honestly, if he does, I will look every day like a crazy woman. My life will be filled with obession to investigate. Its like I KNOW what my gut tells me but I still ask the questions over and over like a idiot. If I was my friend I'd smack me in the head.
> 
> He's not going to change cause he was never the person I thought he was to begin with. I dont even think I want him to do what I ask because the degree of cheating that went on in my marriage will NEVER be forgotten. I need shock treatment or something.


Please do not use your kids as an excuse to be a martyr or a doormat. Do you think it's better for them to learn that you are not willing to stand up for yourself and demand a better life? That you stayed because of them - hence you were miserable as their fault? 

Choose your path based on what is right not just what seems easiest.


----------



## life101 (Nov 18, 2012)

Having second thoughts about R? Then the following is for you.

1. Cheaters stay in a relationship/marriage only if there are not enough suitable outside options.

2. To be honest in a relationship you need empathy. Cheaters don't have it. Empathy is not something that suddenly grows inside of you when a divine light shines upon you.

3. Happiness is a cheating spouse on the rearview mirror. A cheater is not a decent person's time and effort. Why do you want to stay with the WS? Why is the WS such a catch? Why is your worth so low?

4. File for divorce. Start IC asap with a therapist experienced in infidelity related matters.

5. Protect yourself financially.

6. You have enough self-esteem not to tolerate cheating. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction.

7. You deserve better and you can get better. You deserve to live free, free from the fear of being cheated on and free from a life of constant fear.

8. Your children need a role model, someone who will teach them acceptable behavior and boundaries. If you forgive and accept your WS's behavior, you will set up very bad examples for your children, and this will lead to further heartaches. 

9. You are responsible for your happiness. Never in future tie your own happiness with someone or something. It will lead to pain and sufferings. Happiness has to come from within.

10. Embrace the light, knowledge, and freedom. It will get better if you want to get it better.


----------



## cledus_snow (Feb 19, 2012)

> I like the quote……..you DO teach people how to treat you.


there's another one that goes _"when people show you who they really are- BELIEVE THEM!"_ 

your husband is a no-good serial cheater that will never change- BELIEVE IT!


----------



## bacagain (Sep 9, 2013)

Does anyone here get a sudden surge of "POWER"? Like you wake up one day and you feel like "SCREW THIS!" "SCREW HIM". Who cares and why am I even hurting? I can handle this! What’s my problem. Today I feel zero pain so get your butt up and take care of this. He's a fool, he's an idot , he's not worth your time and effort or tears. This man you look at as someone you want to follow around and snoop is NOTHING.........

Does anyone have these days? I mean they don’t last because of I've gone from this feeling to downright depression but how can I hold on to this feeling. It’s such a relief when I feel like this. It’s like this problem all of the sudden becomes totally irrelevant and small. He becomes irrelevant and small and I see everything through eyes of WHO CARES ...........I want to hold on to it but it doesn’t stick.   

MOULIN - yes, yes, yes 1000000% yes 
"Choose your path based on what is right not just what seems easiest."


----------



## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

bacagain said:


> Does anyone here get a sudden surge of "POWER"? Like you wake up one day and you feel like "SCREW THIS!" "SCREW HIM". Who cares and why am I even hurting? I can handle this! What’s my problem. Today I feel zero pain so get your butt up and take care of this. He's a fool, he's an idot , he's not worth your time and effort or tears. This man you look at as someone you want to follow around and snoop is NOTHING.........
> 
> Does anyone have these days? I mean they don’t last because of I've gone from this feeling to downright depression but how can I hold on to this feeling. It’s such a relief when I feel like this. It’s like this problem all of the sudden becomes totally irrelevant and small. He becomes irrelevant and small and I see everything through eyes of WHO CARES ...........I want to hold on to it but it doesn’t stick.
> 
> ...



Those days when you're numb and over-confident are normal. Unfortunately, they don't last and the saddness and pain does come back. The emotional aftermath of the affair is a rollercoaster ride. 

One day you're going to feel like Superwoman and the next... well, not so much. Use the times you feel powerful to accomplish things and move you out of limbo. See attorneys, file for a D, make appointments for yourself etc.


----------



## bacagain (Sep 9, 2013)

I'm out with my daughter today for her birthday and he gets mad cause our baby is crying and wants to nurse. I lost it. I can't believe he has the nerve to be mad at me for coming home at 9:45 cause while this SOB was out night after night having his affair I was taking care of home??!! I let him gave it. He went to sleep downstairs on the sofa WITH his phone by his side "mad". I feel like going downstairs and throwing a chair at him. The damn nerve. I want to tell him so many things. Furious. After having a great day with my daughter I come home to his miserable cheating lying pathetic self.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bacagain (Sep 9, 2013)

HE DOESNT MANT ME TO BRING UP THE AFFAIR WHEN WE FIGHT?????????? ITS BEEN SIX WEEKS SINCE I FOUND OUT????????

He says we have sunk to a new low by arguing infront of the kids. He slept on the sofa last night with his phone next to him just like my teenager sleeps incase her boyfriend calls her. He will not get out. He plays the victim each time I tell him to leave. 

We are having a talk next week. We have to. Im like a ticking time bomb. For 6 weeks I've been trying to stop the bleeding with all the kids. Family visits and birthdays. Enough. Im about to have a heart attack holding so much in. I have three pages of notes of things I want to say that I've been writting down. I need to get this all out before I have a heart attack from the anger.


----------



## punkinhead (Mar 19, 2013)

bacagain said:


> HE DOESNT MANT ME TO BRING UP THE AFFAIR WHEN WE FIGHT?????????? ITS BEEN SIX WEEKS SINCE I FOUND OUT????????
> 
> .


You're a grown woman and you can bring up whatever you want whenever you want. If poor baby doesn't like it, he can leave! Sorry for the rant - Ive had enough of these entitled, cheating, narcissistic asses to last a lifetime!


----------



## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

The only thing I agree with him on is fighting in front of the kids. It happens (I've even done it) we're human but try not to do it. Still, don't let him use the kids as a shield to stifle you when you need to talk. My ex liked to use drinking (I agree, we shouldn't get into high conflict topics when drinking) or our kids as a shield to never have to discuss things.

Tell him you need to talk, I don't understand the appointment to talk next week but tell him you need to talk about it that night when the kids are in bed or out of the house. Don't hold things in but don't verbally batter him either. You've been writing down your thoughts/feelings - that's good. It should help you clarify what you need to say.

Still, don't put so much weight in these discussions. Your husband is immature and acting selfishly. Prepare to be disappointed if you get it all on the table and he doesn't understand, justifies himself or fails to empathize with you. Don't set your expectations to high. It's still good to clear the air though.

In the interim, what are you doing to move forward with your life? Have you read up on the 180? Have you consulted any attorneys? Do you make time for you? Don't worry about coming home at 9:45. You need a life too. Right now you need to be gentle on yourself. He is not R material - at least not right now.


----------



## bacagain (Sep 9, 2013)

MT , First of all thank you for taking the time to write. 

The appointment for next week is because I needed time to think and get up from this very difficult blow. I couldn’t breathe, I couldn’t think, I honestly wanted to die. I not only did not talk to him I just didn’t talk. I was a zombie for weeks and weeks. I started writing down my feelings because I wasn’t talking. My children were all so distraught with what was going on that I needed to protect them first. Get my daughter off to school, deal with their Grandmother who came to visit , then my other daughters bay. It was insanity in my head. I was shutting down and at the same time had to fight for my life and theirs. This includes HIS children. I had to put up a fight there too. So now after the writing, the visits, school, etc I feel ready or at least more ready to talk then I did initially. 

I agree and I appreciate you reminding me not to put too much weight in my discussion with him. I should and will prepare myself for disappointment for everything you described. I need to tell myself this over and over so I don’t freak during my discussion. I really need ( even if just for myself ) to get this out. 

I haven’t don’t much in respect to my own life. Like I said, just about the kids. We have 5 of them and they are all as confused and hurt as can be. So that was my priority. Now I guess it’s my turn. I have not ready the 180? What is that exactly?


----------



## bacagain (Sep 9, 2013)

Punkinhead: YES!!! I can say what I want. He just doesnt want to hear it. While he was sleeping with her and buying gifts he thought he was on top of the world. NOW that he's been exposed in the worst way "he doesnt want to talk about it". Can you believe that??????????

" Ive had enough of these entitled, cheating, narcissistic asses to last a lifetime! 
DITTO X 10!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------

