# Oh, Thank you Oprah (Not!)



## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Thanks largely to having a forum like this the past week or so has been great. Things have settled down and we've actually started to come together to talk about budget, schedules for when we're going out, what's OK and not OK in our marriage.

Then last night everything went to hell, and in my opinion that's largely thanks to Oprah.

We had on the PVR the Oprah Show with this Gavin de Becker character who I'm sure firmly believes that what he is doing is right. I'm sure in his mind the cost of saving the many, many abused wives girlfriends is worth injecting fear and irrationalism into millions of marriages. Now if you look at his abusive relationship writeup I'd be the first person to agree that this message needs to get out there. But if you actually watched the show, Oprah comes out with "Either you or someone you know is with someone who has the _potential_ to be abusive." Well that strikes fear and panic into I'm sure many women and in my particular case has undone all the work we've done in the past few weeks.

One particular statement she now comes back to: "Anybody who doesn't hear the word no is trying to control you." Objectively I agree with this. However it's now become "If you're not OK with everything I do you're trying to control me" and I cannot even _express my feelings_ because that's somehow controlling.

Way to go Oprah. Fair and balanced? Nope. You've just given millions of women in my opinion (my wife included) the impression that they can do anything they want in a relationship with no consequences. And if someone says that's not OK then they are being controlling. And this is OK because all men have the potential to be abusive and are therefore somehow inherently controlling and evil.

And that's utter BS and in my opinion is completely unnecessary to the position of actually trying to educate and help the women that are in abusive relationships. I've never lifted a finger to my wife. I've never torn up photos. I've never shown any of the "Red Flags" commented on. Do I have the _theoretical_ potential to be abusive? Sure. Maybe the CIA will subject me to brainwashing and completely change my personality. Maybe aliens will come down and implant a mid control device. Anything's _theoretically_ possible. Doesn't mean it's actually likely to happen.

What about the _man's_ ability to say no? I'm not OK with what you are doing even though you have the right to do it if you want to? Just like I have the right to feel what I feel and not put up with it if it becomes bad enough?

Thanks for taking away my ability to be heard in my marriage Oprah. I hope it was worth it.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Interesting post Marduk. I’ve a good mate who’s a magistrate and has been a director of a woman’s shelter. I couldn’t believe it when he told me he’d never heard of personality disorders.

In some marriages some men are pushed way beyond what should normally be endured. Even if we muster up all the patience, tolerance, empathy, compassion and understanding, read books, get help, work on ourselves to change ourselves nothing changes the fact that a wife has deceived us and lied to us and falsely accused of us some pretty heinous things while at the same time being disloyal. And of course life must go on while we do those things. The mortgage has still got to be paid as have the never ending gas, electricity and all the other bills, we got to put food on the table and go on holidays. Some silly whatsits like me even buy them new cars. Some are loyal and faithful for decades. And still we get abused.

I’m near nine months out of being with my wife. Just yesterday I got an abusive email from my her accusing me of something I didn’t do based on a lie one of her friends told her. I just left the first email, calming down before I responded. Then the next day I get another email apologising for the one the day before. I know she’s having a hard time of it, I know her emotions are running high and I know that sometimes we drink to get through it and can then fire off something we later regret. I understand that stuff.

But I’d already told her about her “friend”. How she’s a bitter, resentful woman who hasn’t forgiven her husband things he did before they got married over 40 years ago. My wife started mixing with her, they became special friends, emotional confidents and our marriage went somewhat downhill from there. I just sent an email back saying for what it’s worth your friend is a liar. I can’t be bothered with anything else. My wife not only lost my love and friendship, she also lost my good will.

To listen to these people it’s always always the husband that’s at fault. It’s like these people have never been in love, committed and married. There was a war veteran who made his declaration that the emotional distress he felt in his marriage was far worse than the battlefield.

Sometimes I get truly pxssed off with all the man/husband bashing that goes on.

Bob


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

Well - I kind of get it.

Everyone has the right to say no - even wayward spouses. But we - as loyal spouses - have to figure out some way to create and enforce boundaries. If they say "No - I will not stop talking to X" - then we can say "I WILL file for divorce."

Sometimes its funny how people say "You need to MAKE her stop texting" or whatever. Short of grabbing her phone and running with it, I can't make her stop, but I can create consequences.


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

And a wayward spouse doesn't need Oprah as an excuse to tell us we are controlling.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

That’s what I did, created and communicated my boundaries. My wife didn’t like it one little bit, she could see she could no longer control or hurt me.

She was staying with friends for a few nights before her flight. She did come back to me and quite honestly she looked absolutely gorgeous, she is my type of woman. But this time round I knew what she was at. I told her I wasn’t going there, that it never solved our problems in the past and this problem cannot be solved that way. I told her about my boundaries again. She didn’t like it one little bit and came out with yet another false accusation.

That was it for me. She was off and I haven’t for one second regretted it. I regret the ending, how it happened, but not the fact it has ended.

Bob


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

nice777guy said:


> Well - I kind of get it.
> 
> Everyone has the right to say no - even wayward spouses. But we - as loyal spouses - have to figure out some way to create and enforce boundaries. If they say "No - I will not stop talking to X" - then we can say "I WILL file for divorce."
> 
> Sometimes its funny how people say "You need to MAKE her stop texting" or whatever. Short of grabbing her phone and running with it, I can't make her stop, but I can create consequences.


Agree 100% You can't stop someone from doing something. But you can control your own response. And that doesn't mean being a doormat.

I told her that I'm not going to hide my feelings from her just to make it convenient but I'm not going to force them on her either. Just be heard and she can make of that what she will. And I'll be there to hear her out, too even if what I need to hear is that she feels controlled.

All you can ever control in this world is yourself, but that in itself is tremendously empowering. Once you seek to stop changing other's behavior, and instead expressing your own emotions and letting them respond how you will, you gain self-awareness, strength, self-control, and also the ability to understand more clearly the other person's behavior. 

For example, I said it bothered me when she stayed out past midnight on work nights because of the lack of sleep and the feeling of absence that creates in the marriage. It doesn't mean she can't go out, just how it makes me feel when it does.

If she then does it again, either she doesn't care, or it's more important to her that she goes out until late no matter how it makes you feel. Both those options mean something.

She responded that it's a form of control through guilt. I said I'm not trying to guilt her into anything by expressing my emotions. I also said that it's also a form of control not to be allowed to express your feelings to your spouse and _I'm simply not going there._ Even if it means losing the marriage. That's a dead end path to me.

I don't think she saw my point at all. I think she saw the Oprah episode (and later discussions with her friends of course) as an "I think I'm a good wife so I can do whatever I want" card. And "look at all these other husbands who let their wives do whatever they want." Needless to say some of those husbands are spineless in my opinion and my wife has multiple groups of friends and she's trying to do everything every group of friends does. And any thought to the other person is a "your holding me back/trying to control me" issue. 

And that's very controlling to the other person. If one person is free to do whatever they want and the other person just needs to put up with it, that's not a healthy relationship. And I'm not going to be either of those people.


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

My wife was doing the same stuff long before Oprah said it was ok! Just like everything else, they are taking something and twisting it around to their advantage - trying to confuse us and keep us off center - trying to convince us its all OUR fault.

I blame them - not Oprah!


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

nice777guy said:


> My wife was doing the same stuff long before Oprah said it was ok! Just like everything else, they are taking something and twisting it around to their advantage - trying to confuse us and keep us off center - trying to convince us its all OUR fault.
> 
> I blame them - not Oprah!


I blame them both. An advantage I think wives have is that they have social structures like Oprah (and others) and typically large groups of friends giving them unconditional support. 

I know if I spoke to my guy friends about it if our roles were reversed I'd get a WTF are you doing pull your head out of your butt kind of response.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

marduk said:


> I blame them both. An advantage I think wives have is that they have social structures like Oprah (and others) and typically large groups of friends giving them unconditional support.
> 
> I know if I spoke to my guy friends about it if our roles were reversed I'd get a WTF are you doing pull your head out of your butt kind of response.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah - I can see that.

Would be nice to have a Manly Man talk show that encouraged us to be strong and true to our nature. Of course that would be seen as sexist and probably get canceled.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Let's do it!

Chuck Norris could host. If the guest gets out of line they could get a roundhouse upside the head.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Susan2010 (Apr 19, 2010)

Hunt Brown said:


> guys in general aren't like that...."


According to the complaints on this board, other marriage boards, and step family boards, the above statement is not true. Perhaps the sum of them all are not considered a reasonable sample, but it's enough if anyone wanted to factor the ratio and deduce probability. And here, apparently, there is some national statistic (I didn't read the link) where this Gavin de Becker character and Oprah received their information.

Sorry to interrupt your gripes, Marduk, but while I understand how you feel and agree with you in general, it seems to me the only problem you have is your wife not understanding what the terms mean. Or maybe she's taking Oprah's comments too literally. Either way, she seems confused based on the information you give us here. She is confused or she figures she will use the information as a way to control you. Whatever her problem is, I don't see how Oprah can be blamed. She stated a statistical fact. Your wife is the problem, not Oprah.


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

Did you (Hunt) ever address the post with the woman whose husband was videotaping her at home and posting the vids on the internet?


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

Peace out!


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## Susan2010 (Apr 19, 2010)

Just curious what you guys think of a man telling his wife that his ex-wife is going to live with them for a few months, and she has no choice in the matter?


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

That's one of those boundary things again. People will say "HE CAN'T DO THAT" - but how can she stop him without getting crazy?

She could kick and scream - she could beg - she could cry - try to influence.

She could meet the woman at the door with a crowbar.

Or she could say "If she comes, I go." Of course she'll need to have the means to back it up.


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

Or - let her move in - cut off a lock of her hair and use it to make a voodoo doll. Bet she wouldn't stay the full 3 weeks.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Susan2010 said:


> Sorry to interrupt your gripes, Marduk, but while I understand how you feel and agree with you in general, it seems to me the only problem you have is your wife not understanding what the terms mean. Or maybe she's taking Oprah's comments too literally. Either way, she seems confused based on the information you give us here. She is confused or she figures she will use the information as a way to control you.


:iagree:

My wife has taken it to a very extreme place right now (I expect this won't last long btw) where _any_ negative reaction/negative feelings I get towards her is a form of control. 



Susan2010 said:


> Whatever her problem is, I don't see how Oprah can be blamed. She stated a statistical fact. Your wife is the problem, not Oprah.


You don't have a problem with the statement that any husband is a potential abuser? As a woman you wouldn't have a problem with the inverse -- that any wife is a potential abuser? I'm not sure if you actually saw the show but it was very much implied that all women should be afraid of their husbands and very watchful because any day now any husband could try to kill/assault their wife.

As a loving husband and father to a daughter I take extreme offense to that. 

Oh, and btw it's a statistical fact that over 1/4 of _wives_ have been physically abusive to their husbands. So should I be terrified of my wife?


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

Marduk - fear sells. And your wife is twisting this up for control purposes.

Yes - anyone - man or woman - is capable of a physical assault - but most of us will never do it.

Hopefully they focused on some of the actual warning signs of abuse, and didn't just over-generalize.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Every woman is a potential C0ck-Blocker.
I'm going pubic with this news.

*Yes. I just posted that.*


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

"Pubic"??? Freudian slip?

My peace out message - I had typed more. I really do think an Oprah-like show with a Man encouraging Men to be more Manly would be canceled and banned. 

But we've had this discussion before - remember BBW?

I used to think it was all bull - until I read all of these posts from women hiding under anonymous names - saying they really truly wanted more manly men - that a man changing diapers and vacuuming really ISN'T sexy, but a man ordering her meals, taking over the household decisions and riding a motorcycle with no helmet IS sexy.

It truly goes both ways.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

I didn't see the show nor do I watch Oprah. Having said that, Gavin De Becker is a very well known security consultant. He isn't some scare tactic hack. He's been around for a long time and no doubt has seen it all. I do disagree with his statement that all MEN can turn violent. I think EVERYBODY could turn violent given the wrong circumstances. He focused on men (I am guessing) on the Oprah show because the majority of her viewers are women and quite possibly some of them watching that show are afraid of their husband coming home. If it helped just one woman recognize the signs and help her out of her situation, then I say kuddos. For the same reason if a husband was watching and recognized signs that his wife is abusing him and Gavin De Becker's advice helped this man out of his situation then I say kuddos. NOBODY should live with abuse.


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## CLucas976 (Jun 27, 2010)

marduk said:


> Let's do it!
> 
> Chuck Norris could host. If the guest gets out of line they could get a roundhouse upside the head.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm female, and I'd much rather watch this show.

I vote for chuck.

I hate talk shows, all of them, for every statistic given, theres another equally as reputable statistic to argue it.

The word no, does not equal abuse. So when I ask my husband if I can pop a zit I found on his face, and he says no, he's obviously abusive? in all honesty that is outrageous.

I understand the need for oprahs show topic, even looking at my situation I understand it, but that statement is coming from a woman who spent years eating turkey bacon only to be flabergasted by the news (on her own show) that real bacon is actually healthier due to sodium. This woman can afford to pay a nutritionist...

her topic was well meant, but that statement was misdirected and mis-spoken. it could have been put in different words to get the real point across, instead of being left to whatever interpretation suits you best.


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

I still think the point - for us around here - should be that people will abuse advice like this - with or without Oprah - in order to maintain their control over the situation. Its a power play. Hell - if she says "No - I won't stop talking to XXX" - that's pretty much emotional abuse.

Everything gets so twisted - easier for them to lie to us when we get all sideways and bent out of shape over semantics.


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## Kobo (May 13, 2010)

nice777guy said:


> I still think the point - for us around here - should be that people will abuse advice like this - with or without Oprah - in order to maintain their control over the situation. Its a power play. Hell - if she says "No - I won't stop talking to XXX" - that's pretty much emotional abuse.
> 
> Everything gets so twisted - easier for them to lie to us when we get all sideways and bent out of shape over semantics.


That can be said of all people. We will generally run with advise, statistics, and opinions that support our leaning.


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## Susan2010 (Apr 19, 2010)

marduk said:


> You don't have a problem with the statement that any husband is a potential abuser?
> 
> I will refer you to my original on the subject...........
> 
> ...


1000 women polled is not a representative sample, but no I have no problem with that data either, especially with there being to way to know who specifically these women are or their circumstances. They were not selected randomly.


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## Blanca (Jul 25, 2008)

marduk said:


> She responded that it's a form of control through guilt. I said I'm not trying to guilt her into anything by expressing my emotions. I also said that it's also a form of control not to be allowed to express your feelings to your spouse and _I'm simply not going there._ Even if it means losing the marriage. That's a dead end path to me.


Believe it or not your problem has very, very little to do with control. You both have very poor, blurry emotional boundaries. You are both trying to force the other to change their mind. There's no respect for individuality in your relationship. 

She is trying to make you accountable for her emotions and you're trying to convince her you aren't accountable. If you could just realize you are right without needing to convince her you'd see a big change. Tell her how you feel but when she tries to blame you for her feelings, release yourself by simply saying to her, "I'm sorry you feel that way." Saying this does not make you accountable. It's not for her, its for you. You are not responsible. But dont over-step your boundaries and try to change how she feels. if she wants to feel guilted, that's her problem. Dont try to change how she feels. 

This is a very simple step on the long path to healthy boundaries. If you want to really get a grip on these conversations trying reading Boundaries in Marriage Cloud and Townsend. Or Relationship Rescue Dr. Phil


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Susan2010 said:


> Just curious what you guys think of a man telling his wife that his ex-wife is going to live with them for a few months, and she has no choice in the matter?


Surely she has choices. She could phone the other woman and tell her she doesn’t want her in her home. She could arrange to go and stay with a relative or friend. She could file for divorce. She could get a restraining order or whatever it is against her husband.

It’s her house as well isn’t it? She could phone the police to get the woman removed from the house.

Her husband sounds crazy and uncaring about his wife. It’s surely her choice if she puts up with that.

Bob


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Hunt,
Have you ever thought how the Dalai Lama can actually “be” the Dalai Lama?

Doesn’t need to earn money because he doesn’t need to buy anything or pay any bills. Doesn’t have to put food on the table because somebody else puts it there. Doesn’t have any children so doesn’t need to be a father. Doesn’t have a wife so doesn’t need to be a husband. Can decry materialism and ambition while using cars and planes to travel about in built by those very same things.

Don’t get me wrong, there’s more of need for people like the Dalai Lama in the world than ever before. And I’m certain he has his own set of personal problems. Barbie doll? The guy doesn’t date because he has no need to reproduce.

Bob


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

I think what the Dalai Lama does in the privacy of his ?monastery? with any kind of doll - Barbie or other - is none of our business.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

nice777guy said:


> Everything gets so twisted - easier for them to lie to us when we get all sideways and bent out of shape over semantics.


Ha! I know exactly what you're saying!

Bob


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