# Fiance's past history



## zbrown210 (Oct 10, 2020)

So about a year into our relationship I discovered that my fiancee had been a professional dominatrix before we met. I put it out of my mind and tried to get past it. But recently I found out that several of her clients were men that I currently work with. Although she never physically had sex with them it bothers me that she had this type of relationship with people I knew. I just cant get the fact that she got all these men off by doing thing that I find wierd and offputting. Am I over reacting? I dont know how to get past this. 

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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

There will be a bunch of people here (men as well as women) that will tell you that since it is in the past, that if she is not acting as a sex worker now and is not cheating or anything now, that you should just accept it and not judge her for it and that you do not have the right to judge her personal choices before getting with you. 

You may do that if you wish. 

But you also have the right to choose not to commit yourself to a former sex worker that serviced people you work with day after day. 

Here's the thing. This is a free country and we choose our own mates based on whatever criteria and traits and characteristics that we want. Other people do not have to agree with it and they can choose their mates based on whatever criteria they want. 

When she decided to go into sex work, she knew fully well that some men would not choose to commit to or marry her due to that choice. That was a risk she took. 

The ethicists and philosophers and theologians can all debate on the merits on the ethics and merits of marrying/not marrying someone based on their sexual past. But the bottom line is you can choose or not choose who you involve yourself based solely on your own values and mores and interests. 

If you do not want to be with someone because they drive a foreign made care or they wear mismatched socks, that is entirely your perogative.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

To oldshirt's point nobody can really answer that for you. Some people can deal with it and others can't.

To me the real question has always been is whether what you want is reasonable. If you to sleep around then marry a virgin who turns into a porn star as soon as you're married that's unreasonable.

If you're a fat guy who thinks he's entitled to a fitness fanatic that's unreasonable.

If you want someone who hasn't been a sex worker and hasn't serviced a bunch of men you see regularly that sounds reasonable to me.

So can you live with this or not? Because it will be in your face regularly.


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## Enigma32 (Jul 6, 2020)

That's a hard pass for me. I wouldn't consider making a commitment to a sex worker. That's the last sort of person I would ever be with long-term.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

zbrown210 said:


> I dont know how to get past this.


Then don’t try.

Seriously if knowing that doesn’t sit well with you, do yourself (+ her) a favour and dump her.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

zbrown210 said:


> Am I over reacting?


Let me put it this way, you don’t have a right to treat her bad or disparage her, call her names or otherwise mistreat her in any way. That is what would be over reacting and out of line. 

But everyone has a right to choose or not choose their mate based on whatever criteria they choose. If someone doesn’t meet your criteria - not overreacting.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

zbrown210 said:


> I dont know how to get past this.


No one says you have to.


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

Oldshirt is right on the money.

Everyone has something that is a deal breaker to them, and that something is different for everyone. One person may not care about their partners sexual past but could never be with a smoker. Someone else could never be with a couch potato, yet another something different.

If you feel that this is a dealbreaker for you, then that is your right. You shouldn’t judge her for it, but it’s your right to end the relationship if you can’t get past it.


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## zbrown210 (Oct 10, 2020)

If we hadn't made it so far in the relationship I would end it however i fell in love with her before i knew about this so that's what makes it difficult for me 

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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

So, how do you know she used to "service" these coworkers? 

How tiny of a world do you live and work in for so many co-workers to have seen (and wanted to see) a dominatrix?


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## zbrown210 (Oct 10, 2020)

bobert said:


> So, how do you know she used to "service" these coworkers?
> 
> How tiny of a world do you live and work in for so many co-workers to have seen (and wanted to see) a dominatrix?


She told me after some prodding. We all work in the same field

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## zbrown210 (Oct 10, 2020)

She did that on the side for extra income 

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## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

zbrown210 said:


> If we hadn't made it so far in the relationship I would end it however i fell in love with her before i knew about this so that's what makes it difficult for me
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


If you really love her then you will want what is best for her. Whether that includes you or not.

What you are really trying to say here is that letting her go is going to cause you emotional pain. Trying to comes to grips with her particular past is also going to cause you emotional pain. Nobody here can tell you which emotional pain is best for you.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

zbrown210 said:


> So about a year into our relationship I discovered that my fiancee had been a professional dominatrix before we met. I put it out of my mind and tried to get past it. But recently I found out that several of her clients were men that I currently work with. Although she never physically had sex with them it bothers me that she had this type of relationship with people I knew. I just cant get the fact that she got all these men off by doing thing that I find wierd and offputting. Am I over reacting? I dont know how to get past this.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


I'd also be also bothered by the fact that she waited a YEAR into your relationship to tell you this.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

I might think the guys you work with would have more to be embarrassed about.

Did she service married men?

There could be more than one type of landmine here.

What are the odds of dating and getting engaged to a woman that serviced a lot of your coworkers?

What field has so many submissive men in it?

This one is a little too weird for me and I like women in leather.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

zbrown210 said:


> If we hadn't made it so far in the relationship I would end it however i fell in love with her before i knew about this so that's what makes it difficult for me
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk





zbrown210 said:


> If we hadn't made it so far in the relationship I would end it however i fell in love with her before i knew about this so that's what makes it difficult for me
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


Just because you love someone doesn’t mean that you have to commit to them and marry them and have a home and family with them. 

Love is a feeling and it doesn’t mean that that person is the right one for a lifetime commitment and family. 

You have to dump her at this time per se. but it would be advisable to put any marriage or legal/financial commitments and plans on hold until you can do some souls searching and determine if this is something you can live with or not. 

Beware that if she knows you’re having reservations, she may bump up the pressure to seal the deal as soon as possible. And for the love of God don’t get her pregnant.


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## zbrown210 (Oct 10, 2020)

ConanHub said:


> I might think the guys you work with would have more to be embarrassed about.
> 
> Did she service married men?
> 
> ...


Yes married men. They dont know that I know about their pasts. 

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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

zbrown210 said:


> So about a year into our relationship I discovered that my fiancee had been a professional dominatrix before we met. I put it out of my mind and tried to get past it. But recently I found out that several of her clients were men that I currently work with. Although she never physically had sex with them it bothers me that she had this type of relationship with people I knew. I just cant get the fact that she got all these men off by doing thing that I find wierd and offputting. Am I over reacting? I dont know how to get past this.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


A key point here would be when did she tell you? I would hope before marriage became a topic, or at least immediately after your proposal if you did it before any in depth conversation on marriage. You said a year into your relationship. Were you actually engaged within a year of meeting her? What has she told you about what she's done? Most Pro Dommes don't engage in actual sex with their clients, even to the point that orgasms don't occur. You might be overreacting but a lot really depends on the sequence of events and what was said when.

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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

zbrown210 said:


> Yes married men. They dont know that I know about their pasts.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


What happens the first time you bring your fiance to a work function that they are at?

Only YOU know what she actually did with these men, and only YOU know what you can deal with. If it is beyond what you are capable of handling, and you force yourself to rug-sweep it NOW, it WILL come back on you in the future. What would you do THEN if you have kids?

This is something you seriously need to sit and talk about with her.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

I'm pretty open-minded, but anything that seemed like sex work would put me off of someone. I'm female. And it being people you know is very awkward.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

zbrown210 said:


> Yes married men. They dont know that I know about their pasts.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


This actually bothers me. The fact that she has revealed who her clients were. It's one thing for her to tell you details about acts without revealing details on the clients. If she is going to whip and tell, I'm not sure she's one to trust with your secrets.

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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

zbrown210 said:


> Yes married men. They dont know that I know about their pasts.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


You might just want to relocate if you want to stay with your fiance.

Too many landmines that could go off in your face.

There is no way you could safely integrate her into your life. If she crossed paths with her former clients it could go sideways in a number of fashions.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

jlg07 said:


> What happens the first time you bring your fiance to a work function that they are at?
> 
> Only YOU know what she actually did with these men, and only YOU know what you can deal with.


Correction; he only knows what she has divulged to him and it was likely only the tiny tip of the iceberg. 

He has no clue what really went on behind dungeon doors.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

maquiscat said:


> This actually bothers me. The fact that she has revealed who her clients were. It's one thing for her to tell you details about acts without revealing details on the clients. If she is going to whip and tell, I'm not sure she's one to trust with your secrets.
> 
> Sent from my cp3705A using Tapatalk


Yeah, This is actually starting to sound a little fishy. Dominatrixes make their livings by keeping their secrets. 

I can kind of see someone saying they were a dom, but I question whether a pro would actually divulge names and marital statuses etc to a coworker of her clientele.


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## Enigma32 (Jul 6, 2020)

zbrown210 said:


> *If we hadn't made it so far in the relationship I would end it* however i fell in love with her before i knew about this so that's what makes it difficult for me
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


Sunk cost fallacy.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

zbrown210 said:


> So about a year into our relationship I discovered that my fiancee had been a professional dominatrix before we met. I put it out of my mind and tried to get past it. But recently I found out that several of her clients were men that I currently work with. Although she never physically had sex with them it bothers me that she had this type of relationship with people I knew. I just cant get the fact that she got all these men off by doing thing that I find wierd and offputting. Am I over reacting? I dont know how to get past this.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


You are going to be married to her if you can't live with it don't. It's better for both of you. Some might not like it but commoditizing your sexuality is a bridge to far for most.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

zbrown210 said:


> If we hadn't made it so far in the relationship I would end it however i fell in love with her before i knew about this so that's what makes it difficult for me
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


Well at least she told you I guess better then you find out after 3 kids and a mortgage.

Here is the thing love should never be the defining reason you get married, it should be a large factor, but lots of things go into having a successful marriage that have nothing to do with love. 

Whatever it is don't marry until you are sure you are over it. It's one thing to break up a engagement, it's totally different and very hard and expensive brake up a marriage. Not to mention if you have kids. 

Dude she is always going to have been a sex worker at one point in her life, that is never going to change so if you are looking for it to go away it won't. You will have to learn to live with it or not.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Livvie said:


> I'd also be also bothered by the fact that she waited a YEAR into your relationship to tell you this.


Agreed, but maybe they were friends first. Then again maybe he hasn't prodded enough. It's a risk that is for sure.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

zbrown210 said:


> Yes married men. They dont know that I know about their pasts.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


Do they know you are dating her? Because it's a pretty good bet they have an idea you might. 

I second the DON'T GET HER PREGNANT advice.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

ConanHub said:


> What field has so many submissive men in it?


Politics, or clergy? 😉


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

sokillme said:


> Politics, or clergy? 😉


LoL!


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## zbrown210 (Oct 10, 2020)

maquiscat said:


> A key point here would be when did she tell you? I would hope before marriage became a topic, or at least immediately after your proposal if you did it before any in depth conversation on marriage. You said a year into your relationship. Were you actually engaged within a year of meeting her? What has she told you about what she's done? Most Pro Dommes don't engage in actual sex with their clients, even to the point that orgasms don't occur. You might be overreacting but a lot really depends on the sequence of events and what was said when.
> 
> Sent from my cp3705A using Tapatalk


Yes we were engaged after about 8 months. She told me that (trying not to get to graphic) depending on the person she whipped them, inserted and removed things from the anus, sat on food, hung them while they masturbated, was mean to them, and bossed them around. But she never slept or did any sexual act with them. 

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## zbrown210 (Oct 10, 2020)

Per her she said she did it to provide for her and her daughter and didnt like it but doesnt regret it. This alone bothers me, if she had just said she regrets it I would feel like she morally knows now it was wrong and would never do it again but by saying she doesnt regret it it almost seems like a slap in the face. The fact that she might mingle and cause drama with my coworkers does concern me as I have a job I love and dont want to jeopardize it. 

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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

zbrown210 said:


> Yes we were engaged after about 8 months. She told me that (trying not to get to graphic) depending on the person she whipped them, inserted and removed things from the anus, sat on food, hung them while they masturbated, was mean to them, and bossed them around. But she never slept or did any sexual act with them.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


Man that is quite a bridge.

Dude the whole thing is about sex, what you mean no one had any penetration into her. Make no mistake the whole thing was a sexual act. Your not helping yourself by not being truthful about what this was. Lot's an lots of sex acts don't involve penetration. 

Now before you marry her you need to sit with the full cold hard facts of what she did and figure out if you can deal with them, not when they haunt you later.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

zbrown210 said:


> Per her she said she did it to provide for her and her daughter and didnt like it but doesnt regret it. This alone bothers me, if she had just said she regrets it I would feel like she morally knows now it was wrong and would never do it again but by saying she doesnt regret it it almost seems like a slap in the face. The fact that she might mingle and cause drama with my coworkers does concern me as I have a job I love and dont want to jeopardize it.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


You need to understand and frame this better especially if you want to talk about this with her. Look, she doesn't have to regret it, it's her life and as an adult she is free to choose how to live it. What I think really bothers you is that it shows you have very different ideas when it comes to sex and sexuality. That probably means you are going to have compatibility issues. This is the crux of your problem.

People are just going to attack you and say you are trying to shame her. There is no need, her lack of regret shows that she thinks of commoditizing sexual totally different then you do, and to her not a really big deal. Where as for you and others it's not something you would sell for any reason. You guys are not at all on the same page as far as sex goes. That is OK, but truthfully it's a disaster when it comes to marriage. Then take the potential of raising kids into account. You will probably be teaching them very different things when it comes to sex. 

I would be remiss if I didn't mention I personally believe someone with this attitude about sex is a risky bet, that I wouldn't take even if I wasn't bothered by it. Lots of prostitutes have some serious bad sexual history that can lead to all kinds of problems in marriage. My fear would be this would manifest in other ways. Now I could be entirely wrong, and she could be the most healthy of people, but if not you are going to find out in the worst way for sure. The kind of way that blows up your whole life. That's not PC to say but it's true.

You need to think long and hard about this.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

zbrown210 said:


> Per her she said she did it to provide for her and her daughter and didnt like it but doesnt regret it. This alone bothers me, if she had just said she regrets it I would feel like she morally knows now it was wrong and would never do it again but by saying she doesnt regret it it almost seems like a slap in the face. The fact that she might mingle and cause drama with my coworkers does concern me as I have a job I love and dont want to jeopardize it.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


You see this as something immoral and shameful and she doesn’t. 

You see her activities as “wrong” and she doesn’t. 

This shows you two have a very different set of values and mores. 

That is not a good foundation for which to maintain a relationship.


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## zbrown210 (Oct 10, 2020)

Maybe I've been fooling myself but having others bring it to my attention I do realize that our views on sex and sexuality are very different. 

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## 335289 (Nov 28, 2018)

zbrown210 said:


> So about a year into our relationship I discovered that my fiancee had been a professional dominatrix before we met. I put it out of my mind and tried to get past it. But recently I found out that several of her clients were men that I currently work with. Although she never physically had sex with them it bothers me that she had this type of relationship with people I knew. I just cant get the fact that she got all these men off by doing thing that I find wierd and offputting. Am I over reacting? I dont know how to get past this.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


I think that's hot as hell. Look. BDSM is sexual, but it doesn't have to be sex. In this case you already said it wasn't sex. So, you need to get over that. Full disclosure: I'm happily divorced with about four years experience in the BDSM community. Feel free to bounce anything off me if you would like my opinion.


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## JustTheWife (Nov 1, 2017)

zbrown210 said:


> She told me after some *prodding*. We all work in the same field
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


"Prodding"...cute pun.

So are you saying that she propositioned men for dominatrix services at her (and your) place of work or through "day job" professional contacts in your field and these men hired her for services like "prodding" their anuses? Is that the explanation for the unbelievable coincidence that so many of your mutual married coworkers happened to have paid her for dominatrix services? How many men are we talking about? Did she proposition each one at work separately? Or did these married professional men talk openly about how they hired your fiance (a female coworker of theirs) for dominatrix services so her side business spread by word of mouth? I just can't imagine how she propositioned men for paid sexual services through her "day job".

Details like this might not normally be important but I think some are questioning that this might all be made up. I know that for myself, the story doesn't add up. You may want to explain if you want people to take this seriously.


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## GC1234 (Apr 15, 2020)

zbrown210 said:


> So about a year into our relationship I discovered that my fiancee had been a professional dominatrix before we met. I put it out of my mind and tried to get past it. But recently I found out that several of her clients were men that I currently work with. Although she never physically had sex with them it bothers me that she had this type of relationship with people I knew. I just cant get the fact that she got all these men off by doing thing that I find wierd and offputting. Am I over reacting? I dont know how to get past this.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


My concern for you would be, what if one day she wakes up and tells you she wants your sex life to be like this...that she's bored, or stifled, or thinks your boring in bed. That's something to really discuss with her. Not sure if you'll get a straight answer, but worth a shot. But no, you're definitely not overreacting.


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## zbrown210 (Oct 10, 2020)

JustTheWife said:


> "Prodding"...cute pun.
> 
> So are you saying that she propositioned men for dominatrix services at her (and your) place of work or through "day job" professional contacts in your field and these men hired her for services like "prodding" their anuses? Is that the explanation for the unbelievable coincidence that so many of your mutual married coworkers happened to have paid her for dominatrix services? How many men are we talking about? Did she proposition each one at work separately? Or did these married professional men talk openly about how they hired your fiance (a female coworker of theirs) for dominatrix services so her side business spread by word of mouth? I just can't imagine how she propositioned men for paid sexual services through her "day job".
> 
> Details like this might not normally be important but I think some are questioning that this might all be made up. I know that for myself, the story doesn't add up. You may want to explain if you want people to take this seriously.


She did it before we met so definitely not my place. To my understanding some friends got her in it because they knew she needed money and I guess with their help and word of mouth is how she got "clients."

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## zbrown210 (Oct 10, 2020)

JustTheWife said:


> "Prodding"...cute pun.
> 
> So are you saying that she propositioned men for dominatrix services at her (and your) place of work or through "day job" professional contacts in your field and these men hired her for services like "prodding" their anuses? Is that the explanation for the unbelievable coincidence that so many of your mutual married coworkers happened to have paid her for dominatrix services? How many men are we talking about? Did she proposition each one at work separately? Or did these married professional men talk openly about how they hired your fiance (a female coworker of theirs) for dominatrix services so her side business spread by word of mouth? I just can't imagine how she propositioned men for paid sexual services through her "day job".
> 
> Details like this might not normally be important but I think some are questioning that this might all be made up. I know that for myself, the story doesn't add up. You may want to explain if you want people to take this seriously.


To my knowledge she had about 5-10 customers. What part is unbelievable 

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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

zbrown210 said:


> Maybe I've been fooling myself but having others bring it to my attention I do realize that our views on sex and sexuality are very different.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


There is also the fact that you got engaged after only 9 months. Now had she been someone you had known for years and then started dating, such a short period would not be an issue. But 8 months is typically too short to determine if there is marriage potential there. As one poster said, love is not enough, even if it the top factor.

Also how long after, I'm assuming, you proposed did she wait to tell you about this. I can see not telling you when you first start dating. If she doesn't know yet the long term potential, then that is a good secret for her to keep. However, she should have told you once you proposed. Now a couple of weeks after the actual proposal is a reasonable timeframe for her to figure out how to approach the topic, but no more than that.

Also, did she outright reveal that her clients were your co-workers? Are they her co-workers, too, or am I misunderstanding the work situation?

The biggest thing I can say for if you decided to break it off, is that you don't try to shame her for being a pro Domme. She doesn't regret it because she did it to provide for her daughter. Point out that you don't begrudge her, her past, but it's not something you are capable of dealing with. Add in the length of time it took to reveal from proposal and that she revealed client info to you, if such are the cases, as part of your problem.

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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

GC1234 said:


> My concern for you would be, what if one day she wakes up and tells you she wants your sex life to be like this...that she's bored, or stifled, or thinks your boring in bed. That's something to really discuss with her. Not sure if you'll get a straight answer, but worth a shot. But no, you're definitely not overreacting.


Or she needs some money to buy a car or something.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

maquiscat said:


> Point out that you don't begrudge her, her past, but it's not something you are capable of dealing with.


Maybe he is or maybe he isn't but he doesn't want to deal with it, which is perfectly reasonable and I would think pretty typical.


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## GC1234 (Apr 15, 2020)

sokillme said:


> Or she needs some money to buy a car or something.


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## Spicy (Jun 18, 2016)

zbrown210 said:


> She told me that (trying not to get to graphic) depending on the person she whipped them, inserted and removed things from the anus, sat on food, hung them while they masturbated, was mean to them, and bossed them around. But she never slept or did any sexual act with them.


Is it just me, or does anyone else think this is having sex with married men?
No freaking way I would marry her.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

Spicy said:


> Is it just me, or does anyone else think this is having sex with married men?
> No freaking way I would marry her.


He didn't give that detail. Some at least could well be single men. That is before we look at he saying she didn't have sexual intercourse with them.

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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

zbrown210 said:


> So about a year into our relationship I discovered that my fiancee had been a professional dominatrix before we met. I put it out of my mind and tried to get past it. But recently I found out that several of her clients were men that I currently work with. Although she never physically had sex with them it bothers me that she had this type of relationship with people I knew. I just cant get the fact that she got all these men off by doing thing that I find wierd and offputting. Am I over reacting? I dont know how to get past this.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


She should have told you earlier. For me that would be a big no no. Being paid to do this is basically being a prostitute


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

zbrown210 said:


> Yes married men. They dont know that I know about their pasts.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


Even more of a no no. Where are her moral values? Its one thing to do this with single guys, but married men????


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

zbrown210 said:


> If we hadn't made it so far in the relationship I would end it however i fell in love with her before i knew about this so that's what makes it difficult for me
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


Yes its not easy, that's why she should have been upfront, so basically add deception to that.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

zbrown210 said:


> Maybe I've been fooling myself but having others bring it to my attention I do realize that our views on sex and sexuality are very different.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


And that's a massive red flag, If it's bothering you now, it will both you far more after you are married.


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## JustTheWife (Nov 1, 2017)

zbrown210 said:


> To my knowledge she had about 5-10 customers. What part is unbelievable
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


My post is very clear about what is unbelievable about this story.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

zbrown210 said:


> Per her she said she did it to provide for her and her daughter and didnt like it but doesnt regret it. This alone bothers me, if she had just said she regrets it I would feel like she morally knows now it was wrong and would never do it again but by saying she doesnt regret it it almost seems like a slap in the face. The fact that she might mingle and cause drama with my coworkers does concern me as I have a job I love and dont want to jeopardize it.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


Yes big red flag that she doesn't see it as wrong or regret it. There are countless single mums around who don't resort to this.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

IronHamster said:


> I think that's hot as hell. Look. BDSM is sexual, but it doesn't have to be sex. In this case you already said it wasn't sex. So, you need to get over that. Full disclosure: I'm happily divorced with about four years experience in the BDSM community. Feel free to bounce anything off me if you would like my opinion.


 Of course its sexual.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

Diana7 said:


> It's sexual.


But it's not sex. For some like you, sex and sexual are essentially the same. For others, the difference is vast. Some men would be fine if their woman had been a cam girl in her past, where no other man had touched her, but not deal well had she had physical interactions.

Sent from my cp3705A using Tapatalk


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

maquiscat said:


> But it's not sex. For some like you, sex and sexual are essentially the same. For others, the difference is vast. Some men would be fine if their woman had been a cam girl in her past, where no other man had touched her, but not deal well had she had physical interactions.
> 
> Sent from my cp3705A using Tapatalk


Come on now, men go to women like that because its how they get aroused. Its highly sexual.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

Diana7 said:


> Come on now, men go to women like that because its how they get aroused. Its highly sexual.


Which part of my agreeing that it's sexual did you miss? But sexual isn't sex. They are separate. And for some the difference is moot, and others the difference is vast. The fact that the difference is moot for you, does not mean it is for all or even most. Some men will happily date a former (or even current) pole dancer, but won't get involved with a former prostitute. Both are engaged in sexual acts, but only the later is engaged in sex.

Sent from my cp3705A using Tapatalk


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## zbrown210 (Oct 10, 2020)

Diana7 said:


> Even more of a no no. Where are her moral values? Its one thing to do this with single guys, but married men????


Shes much more liberal than I in regards to sex. I think she believes that as long as ifs consensual between partners then there isn't a problem. I see it as wrong to go outside your relationship to seek pleasure much less be involved in practices that come with domming. 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Spicy said:


> Is it just me, or does anyone else think this is having sex with married men?
> No freaking way I would marry her.


Yep. I think I wrote my response before the married part came out. But also even before that this would be a non-starter for me so I guess I might have just overlooked that. But your right, this is another great big red flag, in a May Day parade of them.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

zbrown210 said:


> Shes much more liberal than I in regards to sex. I think she believes that as long as ifs consensual between partners then there isn't a problem. I see it as wrong to go outside your relationship to seek pleasure much less be involved in practices that come with domming.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


Meaning the married peoples spouses knew this was going on, or it doesn't matter if you are married or not?

If it's the latter then you need to Ride Like the Wind...

do do do do - do - do - do - do.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

A big mistake.....maybe the biggest of relationship mistakes, that I think lot of people make is prioritizing love over compatibility. We've all done it and it's one of the reasons arranged marriages can be so successful.

Love can grow from compatibility, but love does not create compatibility. Ideally one has both but love without compatibility will almost always fail.

OP, this is the question you have to honestly answer. I know it's hard but forget about the fact that you love her.

Are you compatibile? If I'd answered this question honestly I wouldn't have married my ex and would've saved myself years of issues.

Maybe your answer is yes, but have you asked yourself this question?


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Spicy said:


> Is it just me, or does anyone else think this is having sex with married men?


Only their proctologist knows for sure.


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## Spicy (Jun 18, 2016)

That is hysterical!


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

maquiscat said:


> Which part of my agreeing that it's sexual did you miss? But sexual isn't sex. They are separate. And for some the difference is moot, and others the difference is vast. The fact that the difference is moot for you, does not mean it is for all or even most. Some men will happily date a former (or even current) pole dancer, but won't get involved with a former prostitute. Both are engaged in sexual acts, but only the later is engaged in sex.
> 
> Sent from my cp3705A using Tapatalk


So, shoving things up the guys ass isn't sex? So I presume that you subscribe to the Bill Clinton definition? Yeah, it was sex, even if THEY didn't get into HER body.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

sokillme said:


> Meaning the married peoples spouses knew this was going on, or it doesn't matter if you are married or not?
> 
> If it's the latter then you need to Ride Like the Wind...
> 
> do do do do - do - do - do - do.


Can't get the song out of my head now, and neither should you, OP.


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

Spicy said:


> Is it just me, or does anyone else think this is having sex with married men?
> No freaking way I would marry her.


This is what is getting me. She has no regrets about cheating with married men that she works with. She see no problems having sex with them (performing sexual acts on them is having sex).


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

Can you move past this?

Can you marry this girl knowing she has been with so many of your coworkers?

Has she done this since the two of you have been dating? She needed the money still right? So did she cheat on you?

Will or has she continued to do this?

Can you trust she won’t do this again knowing she has no problems with cheating?


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## hinterdir (Apr 17, 2018)

zbrown210 said:


> So about a year into our relationship I discovered that my fiancee had been a professional dominatrix before we met. I put it out of my mind and tried to get past it. But recently I found out that several of her clients were men that I currently work with. Although she never physically had sex with them it bothers me that she had this type of relationship with people I knew. I just cant get the fact that she got all these men off by doing thing that I find wierd and offputting. Am I over reacting? I dont know how to get past this.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


If your sexual tastes and values differ so much and this is bothering you so why marry this one?
You do not sound compatible.
Not sure why a dominatrix does but it sounds like strangers paid her to do sexual things to them.
Really? This is wife material? Take home for Christmas with the family...have children with?
I do not know dude. Sounds gross.


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## Wolfman1968 (Jun 9, 2011)

zbrown210 said:


> Yes we were engaged after about 8 months. She told me that (trying not to get to graphic) depending on the person she whipped them, inserted and removed things from the anus, sat on food, hung them while they masturbated, was mean to them, and bossed them around. But she never slept or did any sexual act with them.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


You know, "hung them while they masturbated" and "inserted and removed things from the anus" would actually be considered a "sexual act" in my book.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

zbrown210 said:


> Shes much more liberal than I in regards to sex. I think she believes that as long as ifs consensual between partners then there isn't a problem. I see it as wrong to go outside your relationship to seek pleasure much less be involved in practices that come with domming.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


It wasnt consensual, their wives didnt know. I cant honestly see how this can possibly work, her moral values are so much lower than yours. Her views on what is right and wrong in sex and relationships are very different from yours. The fact that she sees nothing wrong with committing sexual acts with married men is a major red flag. She clearly doesnt value marriage or faithfulness.
I know you love her, but she lied to you and she deceived you for a year. How could you trust her in the future? One good thing is that you arent married yet, you dont need to go through a divorce. If you marry her with all these red flags then you will almost certainly live to regret it. 🚩 🚩 🚩 🚩 🚩 🚩 🚩


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## manowar (Oct 3, 2020)

A couple of things you need to think about.

1. Who has the higher attraction level between the two of you. Sounds like you do. 

2. Do you like your resources? Did you work hard for them? Marriage is not a contract between you and a woman. Its between you and the State. If the marriage doesn't work out, say goodbye to a chunk of your hard-earned assets. Even support for a child that isn't yours. Understand the perils of NO Fault Divorce.

3. She may see you as a provider to provision for her and her daughter. Understand this dynamic. hallmark doesn't make movies about this theme. Does she have other boyfriends? is she still in touch with exes. Does she go to clubs? Go to girls' night out. Has she suggested an open relationship? How flirty is she around other men? All serious red flags.

4. Reflect on this question. Be honest with yourself. Come up with an answer. Then ask her. Why does she want to marry you? Ask her if she sees you as a safe guy. Ask her if she could marry any of the guys she dated who would she marry? There's a possibility you are not her first choice.

5. You seem like a nice guy who believes everything she tells you. Have her vetted. You're willing to give her access to your assets because that's what nice guys do. Make sure you know for sure who you are giving that access to. You need to know her complete background. Commitment is a major step that you should value highly. "Protect it with an iron fist" like Thumos said the other day. Don't just give your commitment away. This is where you have the power right now. make sure she doesn't have a bunch of skeletons in her closet. You have to be smart. Don't be an idiot.

Make her earn your commitment.

6. Put this marriage off for at least one year. How does she react? Is she in a hurry or understanding that you need more time? Women marry guys who they don't love all the time. Gives you more time to assess her behavior and professed love for you. Why'd she get divorced? Did she cheat on her first ex-husband. You might have to contact him for info.

7. Again if you are a nice guy she may see you as weak. Someone that she can control. Do you put her on a pedestal and worship the ground she walks on like many weak beta men. This woman is experienced and knows how to deal with men. She categorized you as a type. This site is loaded with nice guys who can't believe that they got cheated on by their best friend and soulmate. You better be a take-charge leader in the relationship or you may have big problems down the road that you can eliminate now. If she is the leader in your relationship, you've got big problems ahead.

Are you assertive, confident and decisive? Do you control the interaction? Or do you say stuff like "whatever you want to do"; I don't know, where do you want to go". Women want leaders, especially in marriage. This is 101 stuff. Her background tells me she's a leader. Does she boss you around? 

8. Fully understand the Alpha phucks/beta bucks concept. Read the Rational Male; No more Mr. Nice Guy; The manipulated Man; Men on Strike: Why More Men are Boycotting Marriage. 

9. Time to Wake Up.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

jlg07 said:


> So, shoving things up the guys ass isn't sex? So I presume that you subscribe to the Bill Clinton definition? Yeah, it was sex, even if THEY didn't get into HER body.


I can see your point, however I was looking contextually at what the OP was saying, and it strikes me as very obvious that he was referring to his fiancée having never been penetrated in any orifice nor having received oral from her clients.


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## zbrown210 (Oct 10, 2020)

ABHale said:


> Can you move past this?
> 
> Can you marry this girl knowing she has been with so many of your coworkers?
> 
> ...


It would definitely be hard. To my knowledge she she only did it a couple times before I asked to make it official. And she claims it wasnt cheating between the man and his wife because the wife always knew, so her rational is if they know and agree it's not cheating 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

zbrown210 said:


> she claims it wasnt cheating between the man and his wife because the wife always knew


So all these guys you work with are seeing a dominatrix _and_ their wives are A-OK with it? That seems doubtful. Did she have proof of the wife's "agreement"?


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## BruceBanner (May 6, 2018)

zbrown210 said:


> So about a year into our relationship I discovered that my fiancee had been a professional dominatrix before we met. I put it out of my mind and tried to get past it. But recently I found out that several of her clients were men that I currently work with. Although she never physically had sex with them it bothers me that she had this type of relationship with people I knew. I just cant get the fact that she got all these men off by doing thing that I find wierd and offputting. Am I over reacting? I dont know how to get past this.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


I'd dump her if I were you.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

bobert said:


> So all these guys you work with are seeing a dominatrix _and_ their wives are A-OK with it? That seems doubtful. Did she have proof of the wife's "agreement"?


On the one side, it's not unheard of for men to get their wives' agreement. Most common condition is that he doesn't stick his penis into any part of her, which is also a condition most Pro Dommes insist on, regards of his relationship status. 

As to proof, when you take donations to a thrift shop, do they ask for proof that it is yours to give away? No. Neither do pawn shops, or really many other business check if a person is "allowed" to do whatever. In the end it is a business transaction and she has no more of an obligation to verify their permission than a thrift store or pawn shop does. But hey, if you want to bring back the days of spousal permission.....

Sent from my cp3705A using Tapatalk


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## hinterdir (Apr 17, 2018)

manowar said:


> A couple of things you need to think about.
> 
> 1. Who has the higher attraction level between the two of you. Sounds like you do.
> 
> ...


Bottom line.
You do not marry an ex sex worker.
EVER, NO MATTER WHAT.
Sex workers should just be single for life.
He is a "insert derogative word here"
if he does not FLEEEEEEEE.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

zbrown210 said:


> So about a year into our relationship I discovered that my fiancee had been a *professional dominatrix* before we met. I put it out of my mind and tried to get past it. *But recently I found out that several of her clients were men that I currently work with.* Although she never physically had sex with them it bothers me that she had this type of relationship with people I knew. I just cant get the fact that she got all these men off by doing thing that I find wierd and offputting. Am I over reacting? I dont know how to get past this.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


Was she wearing a mask? If not, can only imagine the office rumors...  Sorry...

Anyway I married an ex sex-worker in the past though her experience was more brief during her youth far before I met her. She's also the mother of my child and was a woman of quality throughout our marriage, the issue in the end with us was simply I never loved her and only married her due to our daughter. Her past never really bothered me and she was clean.

If it bothers you, then you need to make your own decision if you can live with that.


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## Tdbo (Sep 8, 2019)

You need to keep this simple.
Everyone has a past.
If this were about numbers she had been with, it is her life and you have a decision to make.
However, this........ This is a festering pile.
So, not only was she a sex worker, some of her clients were your co-workers?
The answer is simple. Bounce man, just bounce.


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

maquiscat said:


> In the end it is a business transaction and she has no more of an obligation to verify their permission than a thrift store or pawn shop does.


The point is, she didn't care if she was breaking up a marriage or not. All she cared about was the $$$. Just because people steal and pawn shops only care about the money, doesn't make it right. And for the record, not all operate that way. Some will not buy whatever you're selling if they think it was stolen or without proof of ownership. A relative of mine wanted to get rid of her wedding rings, she had to find an old photo of her wearing them because she no longer had the insurance information. Some people have morals. 

And let's be realistic, a marriage has more value to most people than daddies golf clubs or Aunt Bertha's pearl necklace.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

How long have you been wrestling with this knowledge?


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

zbrown210 said:


> To my knowledge she had about 5-10 customers. What part is unbelievable
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk





JustTheWife said:


> My post is very clear about what is unbelievable about this story.


The unbelievable part, the part of the story that doesn't add up, involved the coincidence factor, how many things had to line up so that this is just people at work, not something she sought herself as a lifestyle, limited to very specific acts and specifically not PIV, and your willingness to view "sex" with such a narrow definition.

If she had "grown up" as a professional dominatrix or whatever-they're-called, sure, maybe, with a lot of training she'd have firmly-established boundaries and a complete separation of the activity from emotion. But that doesn't sound like what she's saying. 

Unfortunately, the only way to know the truth is to get things from the perspective of her clients. And I wouldn't go there with the question of whether she was a dominatrix or not, but instead just what sort of relationship they might have had. It would be fully within the guy's rights to maintain privacy, of course.


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## zbrown210 (Oct 10, 2020)

Blondilocks said:


> How long have you been wrestling with this knowledge?


Several weeks. 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## zbrown210 (Oct 10, 2020)

Casual Observer said:


> The unbelievable part, the part of the story that doesn't add up, involved the coincidence factor, how many things had to line up so that this is just people at work, not something she sought herself as a lifestyle, limited to very specific acts and specifically not PIV, and your willingness to view "sex" with such a narrow definition.
> 
> If she had "grown up" as a professional dominatrix or whatever-they're-called, sure, maybe, with a lot of training she'd have firmly-established boundaries and a complete separation of the activity from emotion. But that doesn't sound like what she's saying.
> 
> Unfortunately, the only way to know the truth is to get things from the perspective of her clients. And I wouldn't go there with the question of whether she was a dominatrix or not, but instead just what sort of relationship they might have had. It would be fully within the guy's rights to maintain privacy, of course.


It wasnt just people I work with or around or know, there were others. Was it a lifestyle for her? Idk she has never really talked about her being into these types of things or wanting to experiment with me, but that could be because she knows I'm firmly against it. She has asked not to tell these men that I know about their past or I would love to get there perspective, though that might be somewhat awkward. 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Do these men know she is your fiancee?

Just give us a hint as to what type of industry you all work in, please.


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## zbrown210 (Oct 10, 2020)

Blondilocks said:


> Do these men know she is your fiancee?
> 
> Just give us a hint as to what type of industry you all work in, please.


We are both in the public safety, first responder field 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

bobert said:


> The point is, she didn't care if she was breaking up a marriage or not.


Point remains, she is not the one breaking up marriages, and you are blind if you can't see that. The person who goes behind their spouse's back, not the the one they go with, is the culprit.



> All she cared about was the $$$. Just because people steal and pawn shops only care about the money, doesn't make it right. And for the record, not all operate that way. Some will not buy whatever you're selling if they think it was stolen or without proof of ownership. A relative of mine wanted to get rid of her wedding rings, she had to find an old photo of her wearing them because she no longer had the insurance information. Some people have morals.


What people do is irrelevant to whether they have an obligation to, which was my point. And in many cases, being able to verify such information is not always doable. Furthermore, no one is the moral arbiter of others. You certainly do not get to tell me what my morals are, nor that of my spouses. You can present your opinions upon them, but you don't get to say what they are. Not does this woman. She is within her morals, and it is not up to her to ensure that any clients of her are maintaining their morals. That would be between them and their spouses and their deities.



> And let's be realistic, a marriage has more value to most people than daddies golf clubs or Aunt Bertha's pearl necklace.


Such value is subjective. All value is. You valuing some things above other things in no means requires others to hold those same values, nor to make sure you hold to those values. I value trust and love above exclusivity. Some people here value exclusivity extremely high on their list. Neither position is right or wrong. Just right or wrong for a given individual.

Sent from my cp3705A using Tapatalk


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## hinterdir (Apr 17, 2018)

Blondilocks said:


> How long have you been wrestling with this knowledge?


I agree 100%


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

zbrown210 said:


> It wasnt just people I work with or around or know, there were others. Was it a lifestyle for her? Idk she has never really talked about her being into these types of things or wanting to experiment with me, but that could be because she knows I'm firmly against it. She has asked not to tell these men that I know about their past or* I would love to get there perspective,* though that might be somewhat awkward.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


Have you read the various threads about why someone's spouse won't do the things with them that they did with others prior? Your situation is a kind-of-sideways version; your potential spouse may have strong desires for things that aren't expressed because, as you said, "I'm firmly against it." Two really bad things could come from this. First, frustration that she can't experience sexuality with you the way she'd like. Second, perpetual thoughts of judgment. Any time she thinks of what she can't do, she might think of being judged. 

And from your end, wanting to get those guys' perspective... let's face it, doesn't that really mean you want to know what really went on? And as long as you're in the dark, you may be controlled by fears, fears that could actually be worse than the reality, or not.

To those who say you can't be the arbiter of someone else's morals, when seeking a partner for an LTR, that's an extreme deflection. You have every right to choose to be with someone whose core values are compatible with your own. It may narrow the field, but it's a much safer approach than to give in to "love" only to later discover that it blinded you to things you are very uncomfortable with.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

Casual Observer said:


> To those who say you can't be the arbiter of someone else's morals, when seeking a partner for an LTR, that's an extreme deflection. *You have every right to choose to be with someone whose core values are compatible with your own.* It may narrow the field, but it's a much safer approach than to give in to "love" only to later discover that it blinded you to things you are very uncomfortable with.


I fully agree with you here, but that is way different than trying to impose your morals on someone else. We have people here trying to tell others what vows they have taken or that they have certain moral obligations, based on their morals and not that of the other person. Yet for some reason they get offended if someone else tries to tell them what _their _morals should be. _That _is trying to be the arbiter of someone else's morals. Deciding for yourself, based upon your own morals, whether someone else's morals are compatible with yours is just good sense. You're not telling the other what their morals need to be.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

zbrown210 said:


> We are both in the public safety, first responder field
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


The general personality types of people that are drawn to a career where they run into burning buildings and towards the sound of screams and gunfire are typically not Timid Forest Creatures when it comes to sexuality either. 

Most have had sex on duty at some point or another (PM me if you want to know how I know)

Additionally, many of the people that seek professionals for BDSM are the alphas and the strong dominant people in regular life. 

If you are looking for an innocent, timid, virgin girl, you’re kinda barking up the wrong tree with one in uniform.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

If you want to make this relationship work, it is time for both of you to move away from all those people who know/knew her past.

Secondly, never piss her off!


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

lifeistooshort said:


> A big mistake.....maybe the biggest of relationship mistakes, that I think lot of people make is prioritizing love over compatibility. We've all done it and it's one of the reasons arranged marriages can be so successful.
> 
> Love can grow from compatibility, but love does not create compatibility. Ideally one has both but love without compatibility will almost always fail.
> 
> ...


One of your better PM's.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

oldshirt said:


> The general personality types of people that are drawn to a career where they run into burning buildings and towards the sound of screams and gunfire are typically not Timid Forest Creatures when it comes to sexuality either.
> 
> Most have had sex on duty at some point or another (PM me if you want to know how I know)
> 
> ...


Wanting someone who wasn't a sex worker is a far cry from needing an innocent, timid, virgin girl. Geez. Why the exaggeration?


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

zbrown210 said:


> We are both in the public safety, first responder field
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


Gak!!!!!!!

I'm my experience, everyone knows just about everyone in that field!!!

You two need to move to make this work....


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## hinterdir (Apr 17, 2018)

maquiscat said:


> I fully agree with you here, but that is way different than trying to impose your morals on someone else. We have people here trying to tell others what vows they have taken or that they have certain moral obligations, based on their morals and not that of the other person. Yet for some reason they get offended if someone else tries to tell them what _their _morals should be. _That _is trying to be the arbiter of someone else's morals. Deciding for yourself, based upon your own morals, whether someone else's morals are compatible with yours is just good sense. You're not telling the other what their morals need to be.


No...."*You have every right to choose to be with someone whose core values are compatible with your own.*" 

There is not BUT to that. 
He has every right....end of story. No "buts" required beyond his right to choose anything he wants.


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## hinterdir (Apr 17, 2018)

Livvie said:


> Wanting someone who wasn't a sex worker is a far cry from needing an innocent, timid, virgin girl. Geez. Why the exaggeration?


Yeah, the extremes and analogies people come up with are pretty ridiculous and would fail every logical debate criteria. 
Kind of summing it up as.....if you date a first responder then you have to expect a sex worker.....that makes no sense.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Or that if you don't want a sex worker as a partner--- then you must be expecting a timid virgin.


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## zbrown210 (Oct 10, 2020)

ConanHub said:


> Gak!!!!!!!
> 
> I'm my experience, everyone knows just about everyone in that field!!!
> 
> You two need to move to make this work....


Lol wish I could but I've been at my job for over 10 years and have promoted to a position that I'm happy at. Idk I guess it just wierds me out now knowing that several guys I see on a weekly basis used her to get off. Like I understand people have a past sexual history but it's almost like crossing swords. Plus it aggravates me that these people now probably think because I'm with her I'm into all kinds of wierd kinks or sexual deviations. What to do what to do lol. 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

zbrown210 said:


> Lol wish I could but I've been at my job for over 10 years and have promoted to a position that I'm happy at. Idk I guess it just wierds me out now knowing that several guys I see on a weekly basis used her to get off. Like I understand people have a past sexual history but it's almost like crossing swords. Plus it aggravates me that these people now probably think because I'm with her I'm into all kinds of wierd kinks or sexual deviations. What to do what to do lol.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


If you have been there 10 years then you know There’s already a lot of sword crossing/Eskimo brothers going on in that field. 

There are chicks out there (probably some dudes too) that can almost be classified as groupies that are out to meet the boys in the band as the song goes. 

The only thing that separates this from any other department is the paid BDSM aspect and her naming names.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

zbrown210 said:


> Lol wish I could but I've been at my job for over 10 years and have promoted to a position that I'm happy at. Idk I guess it just wierds me out now knowing that several guys I see on a weekly basis used her to get off. Like I understand people have a past sexual history but it's almost like crossing swords. Plus it aggravates me that these people now probably think because I'm with her I'm into all kinds of wierd kinks or sexual deviations. What to do what to do lol.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


I personally wouldn't care what others think but I would have a problem with her continued interaction with clients.

I don't mind about a lady's past as long as she left it there.

She was selling herself,(big no-no for me) and doing it with married men.(another big no-no for me.)

If both of those bothersome habits were long gone, I wouldn't really worry about them but that would include not being around the men she sold herself to and committed adultery with.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

You also need to keep in mind this isn’t all about your comfort and security.

How will you view and treat her going forward?

Will you be able to love honor and cherish her? Will you be able to give her the honor, respect and dignity that a wife deserves from her husband now that you know this about her?

You may be able to put on a smile and treat her all nicey-nice when the sun is shining and everything going fine, But what about when the inevitable problems and dark times arise? Will you throw in her face that she used to be a sex worker messing with your coworker’s butts for money? 

When the chips are down, will you see herbtreat her as a loved and cherished wife derserving of all of your honor and respect? Or will you see her as tarnished and less than.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

zbrown210 said:


> Lol wish I could but I've been at my job for over 10 years and have promoted to a position that I'm happy at. Idk I guess it just wierds me out now knowing that several guys I see on a weekly basis used her to get off. Like I understand people have a past sexual history but it's almost like crossing swords. Plus it aggravates me that these people now probably think because I'm with her I'm into all kinds of wierd kinks or sexual deviations. What to do what to do lol.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


You're doing a lot of "LOL" which implies this isn't a really big deal to you. Or you're especially nervous about things and "LOL" is your way of deflecting from the issues. If that's the case, I get it. 

You've been at this job over 10 years so we know you're no spring chicken. You've had your ups and downs by now. Imagine those "down" periods. At such times, would you likely dwell on her past? Would there be times when you just had to know? Would you try to suppress such thoughts, not talk with her about it, but in your mind, imagine the "worst?" What would "worst" mean to you?

OK, here are my two biggest concerns about any relationship. Differing views on privacy and boundaries. Made much worse when it turns out that one person is more private than they let on, essentially taking advantage of the more-open & trusting partner. Boundaries are self-explanatory; if they're not discussed, shock, angst, anger & worse can come up down the road. You need a heavy dose of boundary discussion, because you have VERY different ideas about what's OK than she does.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> You also need to keep in mind this isn’t all about your comfort and security.
> 
> How will you view and treat her going forward?
> 
> ...


I have the feeling the reason she disclosed this part of her past to you in the first place was to see if you would able to treat her with the dignity and respect due a wife. 

If you can’t, she needs to know that before she can go forward with the relationship.

This isn’t all about you. She has to take care of herself and protect herself as well. 

It’s one thing to be treated like a w—-e by her clients. 

But she has to make sure she doesn’t get treated like one by a potential husband.


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

ZBrown,

What do you know about her sexual history excluding the prostitution, has she ever talked about that. Was she in the BDSM community before she did it for money?

Did you ask her if for bonus money she offered additional services.

Since people like to minimize I would suggest you have her take a polygraph before you tie the knot or just tell her she is not marriage material for you and make a clean break.

The fact she witheld this information so long is troubling in and of itself.


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## zbrown210 (Oct 10, 2020)

TAMAT said:


> ZBrown,
> 
> What do you know about her sexual history excluding the prostitution, has she ever talked about that. Was she in the BDSM community before she did it for money?
> 
> ...


She wasnt involved in bdsm before that to my knowledge. She was married previously for several years but divorced him due to abuse. Then had a short lesbian relationship. I've never asked her about additional services per say but she states that she never took her clothes off or gave any type of physical sexual service.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

So...

What's your plan with her?
What to do with her?

Please don't say, "I don't know".

Does she stay, or does she go?


_Nemesis-_


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## zbrown210 (Oct 10, 2020)

SunCMars said:


> So...
> 
> What's your plan with her?
> What to do with her?
> ...


Its definitely something that will require a lot of thought and prayer on. We are compatible on a lot of things and we have made a life for ourselves so it's not something I will throw away willy Nilly but it does bother me and it is hard to look at her the same way so. My gut for now is to let her stay and communicate more with her but if even more comes to light it could very well be the end. 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

oldshirt said:


> I have the feeling the reason she disclosed this part of her past to you in the first place was to see if you would able to treat her with the dignity and respect due a wife.
> 
> If you can’t, she needs to know that before she can go forward with the relationship.
> 
> ...


Then better be sure to disclose anything and everything that might lead to an issue. It's absurd to think it's her choice to limit information about something already known and for which both of them are working in an environment with the others involved. 

This stuff about _her_ dignity means that it's _her_ responsibility to find someone who will respect her for who she is. He has no responsibility beyond being 100% honest about his feelings; he does not have the right to hide from her the sort of things that would be deal-breakers, now or down the road.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

hinterdir said:


> No...."*You have every right to choose to be with someone whose core values are compatible with your own.*"
> 
> There is not BUT to that.
> He has every right....end of story. No "buts" required beyond his right to choose anything he wants.


You are reading what you want to _believe _I said, not what I _actually_ said. Deciding that someone is not a person who is compatible with your morals is NOT being an arbiter of their morals. That choosing is not the same as imposing your morals on another. In making that decision, you are not saying, "Your morals are wrong and you need to have these other morals." Instead, you are saying, "Your morals and mine don't match and will cause problems, so I'm not going to be with you." Do you comprehend what I am saying now? I never equated the two, but you seem to think that I am somehow, despite plain English.

Casual Observer started with:


Casual Observer said:


> To those who say *you can't be the arbiter of someone else's morals*, when seeking a partner for an LTR, that's an extreme deflection. *You have every right to choose to be with someone whose core values are compatible with your own.* It may narrow the field, but it's a much safer approach than to give in to "love" only to later discover that it blinded you to things you are very uncomfortable with.


Note the bold. They are actually two very separate things, yet he conflated the "being an arbiter of someone else's morals", with them not being able to choose who is compatible with their morals. In other words, in those of us telling the OP, or anyone else, that they cannot tell the pro-Domme woman what her morals are supposed to be, we are not in any way telling the OP that he can't choose to find her morals incompatible with his. But that is what CO implied with the above statement. I simply pointed out that the two are not the same. I agreed with his point and all the "but" did was point out that he conflated two different things.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Casual Observer said:


> Then better be sure to disclose anything and everything that might lead to an issue. It's absurd to think it's her choice to limit information about something already known and for which both of them are working in an environment with the others involved.
> 
> This stuff about _her_ dignity means that it's _her_ responsibility to find someone who will respect her for who she is. He has no responsibility beyond being 100% honest about his feelings; he does not have the right to hide from her the sort of things that would be deal-breakers, now or down the road.





Casual Observer said:


> Then better be sure to disclose anything and everything that might lead to an issue. It's absurd to think it's her choice to limit information about something already known and for which both of them are working in an environment with the others involved.
> 
> This stuff about _her_ dignity means that it's _her_ responsibility to find someone who will respect her for who she is. He has no responsibility beyond being 100% honest about his feelings; he does not have the right to hide from her the sort of things that would be deal-breakers, now or down the road.


I’m usually not a big advocate of disclosing everything about one’s sexual past. We should all be enlightened enough to realize we are all sexual beings and have had various sexual thoughts, feelings and experiences throughout the course of our lives. What goes on in the privacy of one’s bedroom (figuratively speaking) should generally be left private. I don’t believe people have a right to know all the particular specifics of other people’s sexual endeavors. 

However I have the feeling in this instance, she realized that the chances of her being outed we very real and she needed to know whether he would be be with her and treat her decently knowing her past. 

She has just as important of a decision to make as he does. She has to determine if he is able to deal with this information and treat her with the dignity and honor that a wife needs from her husband. 

He is also on trial in a way here to determine if he will be a good match for her or not.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

zbrown210 said:


> I guess it just weirds me out now knowing that several guys I see on a weekly basis used her to get off. Like I understand people have a past sexual history but it's almost like crossing swords. Plus it aggravates me that these people now probably think because I'm with her I'm into all kinds of weird kinks or sexual deviations. What to do what to do lol.


So these guys KNOW it was her (she wasn't "dressed" up to hide her identity with a mask or anything?), she knows THEY have this kink and continue to work with her, they don't do this anymore (with her at least?). THEY don't feel weird that she knows this about them? Here's the thing -- they may think this about you, but you KNOW this about them!.
How do you think they'd feel if they knew that YOU knew about it?
Sounds overall like a REALLY uncomfortable work environment ....

Also, she said she didn't do sex - did she ever get off while doing this?


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## zbrown210 (Oct 10, 2020)

jlg07 said:


> So these guys KNOW it was her (she wasn't "dressed" up to hide her identity with a mask or anything?), she knows THEY have this kink and continue to work with her, they don't do this anymore (with her at least?). THEY don't feel weird that she knows this about them? Here's the thing -- they may think this about you, but you KNOW this about them!.
> How do you think they'd feel if they knew that YOU knew about it?
> Sounds overall like a REALLY uncomfortable work environment ....
> 
> Also, she said she didn't do sex - did she ever get off while doing this?


Yes they know it was her, her identity wasn't masked. 
To my knowledge she doesnt do it anymore...if I thought she was I would end it. 
It wouldnt surprise me if she did but I cant say for sure if she got off or not. 


Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

zbrown210 said:


> Lol wish I could but I've been at my job for over 10 years and have promoted to a position that I'm happy at. Idk I guess it just wierds me out now knowing that several guys I see on a weekly basis used her to get off. Like I understand people have a past sexual history but it's almost like crossing swords. Plus it aggravates me that these people now probably think because I'm with her I'm into all kinds of wierd kinks or sexual deviations. What to do what to do lol.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


What they think matters not one iota. Those are your insecurities.

What you think and feel about her is what matters.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

And remember, work staff changes, all won't work forever, your M is intended to outlast work.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

farsidejunky said:


> What they think matters not one iota. Those are your insecurities.
> 
> What you think and feel about her is what matters.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


Insecurities are typically VERY deep rooted and difficult to change. They can be temporarily put into the background, but they're still there, waiting for the opportunity to show themselves. The danger in a relationship is that manner in which love and perhaps lust can initially overwhelm those insecurities and concerns. 

What you think and feel at any given time may not mirror what you are. Step back and look at the big picture. It may be something you can work with. It may not. But be honest about it. Marriage is supposed to be for a very long time. A cruise through TAM threads will show how much people change, perhaps reverting, once the honeymoon period is over. Once routine settles in. Once you find yourself needing to re-establish yourself as your own person because the infatuation with your spouse isn't enough anymore.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

maquiscat said:


> This actually bothers me. The fact that she has revealed who her clients were. It's one thing for her to tell you details about acts without revealing details on the clients. If she is going to whip and tell, I'm not sure she's one to trust with your secrets.
> 
> Sent from my cp3705A using Tapatalk


for me too. This should be her secret forever.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

maquiscat said:


> This actually bothers me. The fact that she has revealed who her clients were. It's one thing for her to tell you details about acts without revealing details on the clients. If she is going to whip and tell, I'm not sure she's one to trust with your secrets.
> 
> Sent from my cp3705A using Tapatalk


Probably the best answer all day.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

zbrown210 said:


> It would definitely be hard. To my knowledge she she only did it a couple times before I asked to make it official. And she claims it wasnt cheating between the man and his wife because the wife always knew, so her rational is if they know and agree it's not cheating
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


I highly doubt the wife always knew.


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## Galabar01 (Mar 20, 2019)

My advice is to not get married any time soon. Push that way, way out (if ever). It sounds like you need to get all the details. Also, I would suggest a polygraph to make sure that none of this happened while you were exclusive.

You are not being weird. Trust your gut.

p.s. I agree that many/most/all of the wives were in the dark about this. Seriously, what wife would put up with that? What are the chances that most of her clients wives would?


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

WandaJ said:


> for me too. This should be her secret forever.


To be fair, she told her man and he probably needs to be informed.

I don't really care about a woman's past as long as it stays there and I would need to know about prostitution, porn or extreme promiscuity with folks I might run into.


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## hinterdir (Apr 17, 2018)

WandaJ said:


> for me too. This should be her secret forever.


lol.....the sacred sex worker and sex John covenant. What is the world coming to if sex workers and the perv....I mean Johns that visit them can't count on the prostitute/John privilege.
That is the thing to be bothered by. 
LOL! Out em all. Let the whole world know!


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

hinterdir said:


> lol.....the sacred sex worker and sex John covenant. What is the world coming to if sex workers and the perv....I mean Johns that visit them can't count on the prostitute/John privilege.
> That is the thing to be bothered by.
> LOL! Out em all. Let the whole world know!


Why does the world need to know???


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

WandaJ said:


> for me too. This should be her secret forever.


The person in question was not a professional. But OP believing she is is central to the idea these were not in any way emotionally-entangled relationships.


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

Not only was she engaged in prostitution, but she also was in a lesbian relationship.

Did she conceal that relationship from you until after you fell in love with her. Did she keep that woman in her life as a friend or other former lovers?

Does she consider sex with other women cheating? 

She sounds like a bit like a sexual omnivour who may grow bored of you.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

WandaJ said:


> for me too. This should be her secret forever.


I disagree because he has to work with these guys. For them to go to work party and these guys know they were getting their rocks off with the boss's wife. Hell no! 

I would not let my wife work with or become friends with someone i had a sexual relationship in the past. To now intimate things about them and vice versa and not make my wife aware? Not.

Same with me. I told her long ago if i start to become friendly with some guy and she has screwed him in the past...she better tell me or we are going to have issues. I do not want to be buddies with some dude that has done my wife.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

WandaJ said:


> for me too. This should be her secret forever.





Divinely Favored said:


> I disagree because he has to work with these guys. For them to go to work party and these guys know they were getting their rocks off with the boss's wife. Hell no!
> 
> I would not let my wife work with or become friends with someone i had a sexual relationship in the past. To now intimate things about them and vice versa and not make my wife aware? Not.
> 
> Same with me. I told her long ago if i start to become friendly with some guy and she has screwed him in the past...she better tell me or we are going to have issues. I do not want to be buddies with some dude that has done my wife.


Keeping a "secret forever" is reasonable only if you have complete control over that secret and your spouse finding out about that secret wouldn't be destructive. Neither is the case here. Let's get real; if there is an issue with something in the past becoming known, something that would likely be an issue, and you don't want to reveal it because of that... you're having a relationship with the wrong person. How hard is this to understand? There's no reason to place judgment on either party for this. It's just a thing that needs to be treated more seriously than many here seem to think necessary. This is not a no-harm/no-foul situation, if you don't have complete control over all aspects of the secret. Control means several things, among them, absolute control over discovery of the information, and control over how that information affects the person carrying the secret (is it something that involves trauma and could cause trouble down the road until dealt with?).

Relationships aren't static. The point in time that exists when you're infatuated and making the decision to spend the rest of your life with another person... that point in time exists only then. Things change down the road. The relationship becomes more dependent upon issues that have nothing to do with intimacy, and yet everything to do with intimacy. Try to see yourself through your partner's eyes, now, and then try to see yourself through your partner's eyes 5 years down the road, if they were to suddenly come across this "secret" and maybe this happened at a tough spot in the marriage. How might they react?


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

As I see it here the main problem is not so much what she actually did, but is firstly the fact that she lied and didnt tell you much earlier, secondly that she sees nothing wrong with being part of cheating with married men(whose wives clearly dont know whatever she says), and thirdly her moral values and beliefs in how important faithfulness in marriage is seem to be very different from yours.
I think you would be very unwise to think of marrying her for these reasons. I fear you may be back here in a fear years with big issues in your marriage. Many red flags here.
I fear things will blow up initially due to you both knowing several of the men she has cheated with.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

zbrown210 said:


> She told me after some prodding. We all work in the same field


As others have said you get to decide what you want. 

My advice is as follows. Depending on your field of work, this could be a career deal killer or not. In college I worked for as a longshoreman. Such a wife would not matter to that field of work. In my current field of work, having co-workers know my wife had been a sex worker that serviced them could be a career killer. I would not go into politics, if I were you. However, if any of your coworkers ever said anything to you, you can look them in the eye and tell them that you don't care and you have to wonder what their wife or girlfriends would think about the disgusting things she got them to do. Then say if they never bring it up again, you will never blackmail them about it. 

So you need to do some deep self introspection on her, your love for her and your ability to support the both of you and possibly a family in your "current line of work."

Now the next thing about becoming involved with any kind of sex worker, is knowing exactly how they feel about you. What I am trying to say is that by definition sex workers treat it as a job or profession. They learn to separate their own feelings from the "customer service" they provide. Sometimes (not always) they look down at their clients as losers and will eventually transfer such feeling to all or almost all men. You need to make sure she doesn't view you as a loser and that she doesn't ever slip into a "professional" mindset with you. Sex workers are good at providing their customers with the illusion of intimacy, with the illusion of love, with the illusion of caring about their customer. Make sure that she really does care about you and that she is willing to give up her old profession.

I would strongly suggest that if you decide you want to share your life with her that you work with a marriage counselor and your love partner on boundaries within marriage, on what you want your marriage to be like in 6, 10, 25 years.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

So much of what's been written hinges on the premise that she was a bona fide "sex worker." But what if that's not the case? What if it's a misguided cover up for things she engaged in, with married men, that had nothing to do with "work". That what actually went on were affairs with married men?


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

Casual Observer said:


> The person in question was not a professional. But OP believing she is is central to the idea these were not in any way emotionally-entangled relationships.


If you are paid for work on a regular basis, then you are a professional. Whether you are good at it or not, ethical with it or not, are separate issues altogether.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

Casual Observer said:


> bona fide "sex worker."


Can you define this?


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## hinterdir (Apr 17, 2018)

OP, someone else pointed out an angle and I must agree with it. 
You say some of these men were married? Wives didn't know and consent?
She willingly was involved in a marriage betrayal....apparently many times. 
You are thinking about marrying her. I assume you expect monogamy? 
She has clearly displayed the value/character of cheating....being involved in cheating. Doing intimate things to another person's spouse and taking part in betraying these wives. 

If you proceed with marriage...you are doing it with your eyes wide open. You deserve what ends up coming your way.


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## zbrown210 (Oct 10, 2020)

hinterdir said:


> OP, someone else pointed out an angle and I must agree with it.
> You say some of these men were married? Wives didn't know and consent?
> She willingly was involved in a marriage betrayal....apparently many times.
> You are thinking about marrying her. I assume you expect monogamy?
> ...


I dont know if all the mens wives knew or not. My next question though would be even if they did know, I would consider that cheating or being unfaithful. What do you guys think. 
She has also said on several occasions she thinks I'll get bored with monogamy since I've only had a couple sexual partners in my life, and thinks I should (with her permission) sleep with another person before we get married. I have expressed that I am firmly against this and I would consider anything of the such cheating. 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## hinterdir (Apr 17, 2018)

zbrown210 said:


> I dont know if all the mens wives knew or not. My next question though would be even if they did know, I would consider that cheating or being unfaithful. What do you guys think.
> She has also said on several occasions she thinks I'll get bored with monogamy since I've only had a couple sexual partners in my life, and thinks I should (with her permission) sleep with another person before we get married. I have expressed that I am firmly against this and I would consider anything of the such cheating.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


Wow.
You have to be majorly kinky and loose for that.

So, unless you are kinky and into 3-somes....she is TELLING YOU right now she is going to screw others in the future so you better be on board with to too.
If not. Break up.....move on.


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## zbrown210 (Oct 10, 2020)

hinterdir said:


> Wow.
> You have to be majorly kinky and lose for that.
> 
> So, unless you are kinky and into 3-somes....she is TELLING YOU right now she is going to screw others in the future so you better be on board with to too.
> If not. Break up.....move on.


I dont know if she wants to have a threesome but rather she thinks I should have like a 1 night stand before we get married 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

maquiscat said:


> Can you define this?


I’m not trying to distinguish between a noob vs an experienced sex worker. I’m suggesting she might be using the claim as a cover, with no payment for services rendered at all.


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## zbrown210 (Oct 10, 2020)

Casual Observer said:


> I’m not trying to distinguish between a noob vs an experienced sex worker. I’m suggesting she might be using the claim as a cover, with no payment for services rendered at all.


While I'm not saying this never happened Im almost certain some of the people definitely paid because she used the money or so she claims for medical bills

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

zbrown210 said:


> I dont know if all the mens wives knew or not. My next question though would be even if they did know, I would consider that cheating or being unfaithful. What do you guys think.
> She has also said on several occasions she thinks I'll get bored with monogamy since I've only had a couple sexual partners in my life, and thinks I should (with her permission) sleep with another person before we get married. I have expressed that I am firmly against this and I would consider anything of the such cheating.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


Unbelievable. She says this and you dont hear major alarm bells ringing???? She clearly thinks nothing of faithfulness as I said before. Making a comment like that I would suspect she has either already cheated or intends to. Honestly you two are on a completely different page and if you want a faithful wife she isnt it. You would be mad to go ahead with this relationship.


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## syhoybenden (Feb 21, 2013)

Run Forrest! Run!!


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

zbrown210 said:


> I dont know if all the mens wives knew or not. My next question though would be even if they did know, I would consider that cheating or being unfaithful. What do you guys think.
> She has also said on several occasions she thinks I'll get bored with monogamy since I've only had a couple sexual partners in my life, and thinks I should (with her permission) sleep with another person before we get married. I have expressed that I am firmly against this and I would consider anything of the such cheating.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


The reason she thinks you’ll become bored with monogamy (and presumably vanilla sex) is because SHE gets bored with monogamy and regular sex.

She is projecting her values and mores and beliefs onto you.

Again, you two have very different values, mores and beliefs. This is a basic compatibility issue.

She may be pretty. She may be sexy. She may be outgoing and pleasant. She may even take in and nurture stray kittens. But she isn’t a match for you in terms of sexual values and shared moral compass.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

zbrown210 said:


> I dont know if she wants to have a threesome but rather she thinks I should have like a 1 night stand before we get married
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


And how does she propose you do this?? 

How does a guy with traditional values and moral compass that has only been with a few sexual partners in his life (which I assume were within the contexts of dating relationships) even go about finding a one night stand so he can experience another women to appease his fiance’

About the only woman on the planet that would have sex for a night with some “Nice Guy” to appease his fiance’ is in a fact another prostitute/escort etc. 

And she thinks this is desirable and a good thing????????? 😮 

Do you see what we mean when we say that you two come from two different worlds and have completely different values and different moral compasses?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Now that being said, I do kind of agree with her in a strange and twisted way and in a different context. 

I do think you need to get back on the open dating market and start dating other women. 

Not so that you can appease your BDSM woman and check off some kind of magical notches on your bed post for her. 

But so you can get out there and find someone who’s values and moral compass are in alignment with yours. 

In a way she is kind of right - but for the wrong reason. 

You do need to get out there and get more experience and wisdom so that you can make a more informed choice and aren’t thinking you want to be with her simply because she is a girl that is giving you the time of day. 

You need to get out there and become a more skilled and experienced and discriminating dater and more experienced at attracting and choosing women that are more compatible with you on a more basic and fundamental level.

Your fiancé is correct in a twisted way, but you do need to get out and get more experience and wisdom and streetwise before you can make the conscious choice and commitment to be with someone like her. 

As I said in an earlier post, the reason she has divulged this information to you is to see if you are going to be ok with a woman like her and make an informed and conscious choice to remain with her knowing who and what she is vs knowing what else is out there.

If you get out and date a wide variety of women that are more traditional and share the same values as you, and after that you still come back and choose to be with her - then that is a man that is making an informed and conscious decision on who he wants to be with.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> If you get out and date a wide variety of women that are more traditional and share the same values as you, and after that you still come back and choose to be with her - then that is a man that is making an informed and conscious decision on who he wants to be with.


Now if you do end up coming back and choosing her - you will need to do that with the knowledge and understanding that she will need to be with a variety of men and women over time.

Just because you put a ring on it doesn’t mean that ring will magically transform her into a traditional church girl. 

I’m actually getting more respect for this gal the more info about her you provide. She is telling you and showing you who and what she is. Believe her. 

She is telling you that she is not a traditional church girl with traditional values and mores and that she does not believe in traditional, monogamous man-woman, exclusive relationships.

She is telling you about her past and reccommending you get with other women to determine if you are cut out for a non traditional relationship and cut out for nonmonogamy.

Even *SHE *is recognizing that you two have completely different sexual blueprints and is questioning your compatibility. 

She is offering you a way to either get into the nonmonogamy/non traditional game to determine if you can play in her league - or to opt out and decide this relationship isn’t for you.

Either way you are going to have to grow some giblets and man up. 

You are either going to have to take a walk on the wild side and get at least tolerant of the nonmonogamous/non traditional lifestyle and accept that you future wife will be getting with other men and women.

Or you are going to have embrace your own values and moral compass and throw this one back and go back to fishing in a more traditional pond.

Either choice is going to require balls and sacrifice.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

zbrown210 said:


> I dont know if all the mens wives knew or not. My next question though would be even if they did know, I would consider that cheating or being unfaithful. What do you guys think.
> She has also said on several occasions she thinks I'll get bored with monogamy since I've only had a couple sexual partners in my life, and thinks I should (with her permission) sleep with another person before we get married. I have expressed that I am firmly against this and I would consider anything of the such cheating.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


She does not want you to have a leg to stand on when she does some guys at her bachelorette party. Think about this...she may be standing at the alter marrying you while other mens sperm are swimming up her stream looking for that egg. Which by the way she does not consider it cheating.

Dude the bridge is out!!...get off the train!!


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

I want to add one other thing. 

I get the feeling you may be a bit of a rescuer and a white knight with a bit of a Knight In Shining Armor complex. 

A part of you may see her as a damsel in distress that needs rescuing and that if you rescue her then she will repay you with her love and desire and fidelity. 

*FULL STOP 🛑 DONT DON’T DO THIS!!*

For starters, I don’t think she’s a damsel in distress that needs rescuing. I’m beginning to think she is more aware of and understands the situation here better than you do. 

I’m beginning to think this is a self-aware woman that knows the score and better understands the nature and complexity of the situation than you do.

She has embraced and accepted a non traditional lifestyle and doesn’t have a problem with it. 

She understands you have an issue with it and wants you to understand who and what she is and wants you to make an informed and conscious choice on whether you will fully accept her as she really is or not. 

That’s not a damsel in distress that needs rescuing. That’s a self-aware woman that needs you to grow a pair and make a hard decision about your future. 

I’m beginning to think she may not be some drug addicted, train wreck with daddy issues that is desperate to find some beta boy that will put a roof over her head and provide for her disputes her past. 

I’m beginning to think she is a self-aware woman that wants to know if you have what it takes to be with a woman like her or not. 

That will be one of the biggest and most influential decisions of you life. Make it wisely.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Divinely Favored said:


> She does not want you to have a leg to stand on when she does some guys at her bachelorette party. Remember at the honeymoon when you go down on her and she is a little musky....probably from the guys from the night before at the BP. Which by the way she does not consider it cheating.
> 
> Dude the bridge is out!!...get off the train!!


Blowing the male stripper and banging some dude in the bathroom at a bachelorette party are acts of impulsivity and irresponsibility that even church girls that cite bible verses and preach about morality and fidelity do. 

I'm beginning to think this gal is more self-aware and methodical than the typical train wreck with daddy issues. 

I think she herself is challenging @zbrown210 to man up and make some tough decisions on whether she is the right person for him or not. 

I'm beginning to see her less as someone with a drug history and daddy issues and personality disorder that is desperate to find a beta "nice guy" that will have her and provide for her vs a woman that accepts her nontraditional and non monogamous lifestyle and is looking for a man that can knowingly accept that and accept her. 

The train wreck with daddy issues hides or greatly downplays her past and clings on to her potential beta provider like a bear trap. She tries to present herself as the perfect church girl that simply stumbled on the path to righteousness. 

The train wreck screams, "pick me! pick me!" 

The self aware woman says, "this is who and what I am. Are you strong enough to accept that and treat me with the love and honor a husband should?" 

The train wreck wails and cries and throws herself to her knees begging for foregiveness and another chance when she bangs the play'a at the bar. 

This gal has told zbrown about her past with a straight face and has not only not asked for forgiveness but has not even implied wrongdoing. 

I think she is less the ditzy bimbo that would blow a male stripper and bang some dude in the bathroom of a bar at the bachelorette party vs a woman who will want to have an accepted female lover on the side and will want to engage in alternative lifestyle activities periodically such as BDSM clubs and swinger parties or even polyamorous lovers involved in their marital lives. 

She is presenting these things to zbrown so that he can make an informed decision on if she is who and what he wants to be with or not. 

Her actions and statements thus far have appeared to me to be more methodical and purposeful rather than impulsive and reckless.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> The self aware woman says, "this is who and what I am. Are you strong enough to accept that and treat me with the love and honor a husband should?"


I've kind of written a novel this morning, but this whole thread can be boiled down to this question. 

This is where you are and this is the base question that you need to address for yourself.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> "
> 
> The self aware woman says, "this is who and what I am. Are you strong enough to accept that and treat me with the love and honor a husband should?"


I should also add - "..or strong enough to end the relationship if you aren't."

Both will take balls and sacrifice.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> Blowing the male stripper and banging some dude in the bathroom at a bachelorette party are acts of impulsivity and irresponsibility that even church girls that cite bible verses and preach about morality and fidelity do.
> 
> I'm beginning to think this gal is more self-aware and methodical than the typical train wreck with daddy issues.
> 
> ...


So the only issue I have is that IF she is a self-aware woman who does NOT want a monogamous relationship, she should flat out tell him and discuss it. She should TELL him that she needs multiple partners, non-vanilla sex and will not be monogamous. Hinting around at it, coming at it in a roundabout fashion -- NONE of that is good.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

jlg07 said:


> So the only issue I have is that IF she is a self-aware woman who does NOT want a monogamous relationship, she should flat out tell him and discuss it. She should TELL him that she needs multiple partners, non-vanilla sex and will not be monogamous. Hinting around at it, coming at it in a roundabout fashion -- NONE of that is good.


I would agree with you on that. 

But the question is, has she actually tried, and has @zbrown210 even came out and talked to her about that? 

We need to keep in mind that many women find it extremely difficult to discuss sex AT ALL with a potential spouse. 

Compared to the garden variety woman on the street, she has been extremely forthcoming. 

zbrown is striking me as a pretty traditional guy and my guess is he is making some sweeping assumptions on what marital sex and fidelity etc would look like and I'd be willing to bet he has clammed up pretty quick and headed into his man-cave to contemplate what she has told him rather than openly discussing what this means with her. 

I am willing to bet a whole dollar that he has discussed this more with us than he has with her. 

Has he given her an open and safe and nonjudgmental venue to have these serious discussions?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

jlg07 said:


> So the only issue I have is that IF she is a self-aware woman who does NOT want a monogamous relationship, she should flat out tell him and discuss it.


And at this stage of the game, a part of her may want a traditional relationship to one degree or another. 

The real question is for how long???? We may need a chrystal ball for that one. 

She may be down for having traditional relationship and marriage for a period of time. But even the most traditional women and church ladies and such get restless and start yearning for some variety and such after kids and years and years of marriage. 

My wife had not even heard of swingers and didn't even know that it was even legal for married people to have consensual sex with others. But after 10 years of marriage and two kids, she went for it and we spent about 10 years in the swinging lifestyle. 

Our lives are a series of seasons. We all change and evolve and adapt as we age. 

Maybe she will be wanting to be swinging from the chandeliers and will want to have Brazilian circus midgets flog her with wet lasagna noodles after a few years of marriage. Maybe she'll just want a foot rub on the couch vegging infront of Netflix. 

None of us have that chrystal ball but either way this is something that they are going to have to have some serious, open discussions about. 

I'm not sure they've actually done that yet.


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## zbrown210 (Oct 10, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> And at this stage of the game, a part of her may want a traditional relationship to one degree or another.
> 
> The real question is for how long???? We may need a chrystal ball for that one.
> 
> ...


We've had a couple but it usually gets tense because she feels like I'm digging and doesnt always like opening up about her past. As for the future these will definitely be things we need to discuss 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

zbrown210 said:


> We've had a couple but it usually gets tense because she feels like I'm digging and doesnt always like opening up about her past. As for the future these will definitely be things we need to discuss
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


You are already engaged to be married, the time to find out is now. You dont need to delve into her past, you need to tell her that if you stay together then any sort of sexual activity (including what she did in the past)outside marriage for both if you is a complete no no. The fact that she has already suggested that shows to me that she wont remain faithful.

Many of us here can see that you are far from being compatable, but you are refusing to see it despite the many alarm bells and red flags.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

zbrown210 said:


> We've had a couple but it usually gets tense because she feels like I'm digging and doesnt always like opening up about her past. As for the future these will definitely be things we need to discuss
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


Yes you do. 

I am not saying this to be provocative or as any kind of put down but as simple, honest fact - you are going to need to grow a spine and man-up and have some of the most open and honest discussions you have ever had. 

Open and honest in this case will mean threatening to you and will also need to be challenging to some of your deepest core beliefs and values. 

I think you know what you need to know about her past. Will it really matter if she stuck a dildo up 8 guy's butts or 10 guy's butts? Will it really matter if she charged them $350 to do it or $500? 

The root questions here are -

- can you love and honor and cherish her the way a husband should with this as part of her past?

- will you two be able (or even willing) to reconcile your traditional nature and her non traditional nature? 

You two come from two different molds from two different factories. 

The reason she tenses up and doesn't like to talk about it is she can sense your judgement and disdain. 

For you to remain in this relationship is going to take some hard discussions on what kind of lives you both are wanting and willing to have together. That will take balls and sacrifice. 

For you to opt out of this relationship based on what will be best for you (and presumably her as well) will take balls and sacrifice. 

Are you picking up on the common theme here????





a


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Diana7 said:


> You are already engaged to be married, the time to find out is now. Many of us here can see that you are far from being compatable, but you are refusing to see it despite the many alarm bells and red flags.


Even she sees it and is challenging him to man up and address it.


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## zbrown210 (Oct 10, 2020)

Diana7 said:


> You are already engaged to be married, the time to find out is now. Many of us here can see that you are far from being compatable, but you are refusing to see it despite the many alarm bells and red flags.


No I can see it. Yes it took me a while but I do. 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## zbrown210 (Oct 10, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> Yes you do.
> 
> I am not saying this to be provocative or as any kind of put down but as simple, honest fact - you are going to need to grow a spine and man-up and have some of the most open and honest discussions you have ever had.
> 
> ...


Yes I understand what you're putting down. 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## manowar (Oct 3, 2020)

zbrown210 said:


> She has also said on several occasions she thinks I'll get bored with monogamy since I've only had a couple sexual partners in my life, and thinks I should (with her permission) sleep with another person before we get married. I have expressed that I am firmly against this and I would consider anything of the such cheating.


Dude Im starting to think you are a troll. If not you are the most naive man walking the planet. You live in a hallmark movie fantasy world of roses and chocolates. read the books I recommended in my prior post. Read them for your own sake. Stop putting your head in the sand. read the thread by Joka (old thread 2014). He realized he was a chump. You are the stable guy she sees as providing a safe home and respectability. Your the plain vanilla commitment beta guy. She's going to get bored fast. Read the Predatory Female for another version of what marriage is. One you are not aware of. It was written by an airline pilot. You are going to end up as a future chump. Does this chick have a high body count? Big red flag. Is she seeing other guys? I bet you have suspicions. Does she talk about other men? Find out her whereabouts when you don't see her for a few days and she texts you stuff like "miss you"; "thinking of you". She might have an ex on the side. things to consider. Why does she want to marry you? Due diligence. It beats the misery of what Joka and many others went through. You don't seem like a confident leader to me.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

manowar said:


> Dude Im starting to think you are a troll. If not you are the most naive man walking the planet. You live in a hallmark movie fantasy world of roses and chocolates. read the books I recommended in my prior post. Read them for your own sake. Stop putting your head in the sand. read the thread by Joka (old thread 2014). He realized he was a chump. You are the stable guy she sees as providing a safe home and respectability. Your the plain vanilla commitment beta guy. She's going to get bored fast. Read the Predatory Female for another version of what marriage is. One you are not aware of. It was written by an airline pilot. You are going to end up as a future chump. Does this chick have a high body count? Big red flag. Is she seeing other guys? I bet you have suspicions. Does she talk about other men? Find out her whereabouts when you don't see her for a few days and she texts you stuff like "miss you"; "thinking of you". She might have an ex on the side. things to consider. Why does she want to marry you? Due diligence. It beats the misery of what Joka and many others went through. You don't seem like a confident leader to me.


OP I think that the thought of ending this relationship is too hard, so you are overlooking what is clear as day. Her suggesting that you go and have sex with another woman would be enough for me to know that its time for me to end things. I mean you are supposed to be engaged. Why is she saying such stupid things unless she has already cheated on you and thinks that you doing he same would sort of even things up if you ever found out? Honestly, in your position I would be doing some deep investigating.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Diana7 said:


> OP I think that the thought of ending this relationship is too hard, so you are overlooking what is clear as day. .


Most people have been brought up with traditional beliefs, values and behaviors (that is why they are considered "traditional" LOL )

One of the challenges people with deep-seated traditional beliefs and values face is that they believe others subscribe to those same beliefs, values and behaviors as well. 

They have a lot of assumptions and presumptions of what it means to be engaged, what it means to be married and what marital sexuality and fidelity etc shall entail. He has likely assumed that since they have been dating, have had sex and that she somewhat accepted his proposal that they shall have this traditional relationship and that she will put her errant ways behind her and become this dutiful little wifey that subscribes to traditional values and behaviors. He is having trouble reconciling that assumption of her future with her past behavior (AS WELL HE SHOULD!) 

The catch here is this gal is not traditional and is not your average soprano in the church choir (figurately speaking) 

She has embraced alternative lifestyles such as BDSM, for money as well as with married men, as well as having relationships with other women and encouraging him to explore his sexuality with other women before moving forward with their engagement and potential marriage. 

This isn't simply about cheating. It is about living and embracing alternative vs traditional values and lifestyles. 

using John Gottman's analogy, she is a sexual Ferrari and he is a sexual moped. 

They are two different classifications of people from two different worlds.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> Most people have been brought up with traditional beliefs, values and behaviors (that is why they are considered "traditional" LOL )
> 
> One of the challenges people with deep-seated traditional beliefs and values face is that they believe others subscribe to those same beliefs, values and behaviors as well.
> 
> ...


Yes I agree, they are so far apart. I am not sure I agree that those bought up one way expect others to be the same though. I never did.


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## sunsetmist (Jul 12, 2018)

Seems to me that many folks on TAM are saying the same type thing (on either side), but not really convincing OP because his stance is not logical. Evidence suggests you did not 'put it out of my mind.'

For future consideration:
1. Hard to believe that at least one of your buddies/associates has never discussed his concerns with you.
2. If, for some reason you are unable to work and support your family, would you be ok with her supporting y'all with this line of work? 
3. Is she the hottest woman to whom you have ever been devoted? What about her attracts you most?
4. How would you handle it should your child come home crying from school because of what some kid had told him or her about Mommie?
5. Each of you deserve to live the life of your beliefs. How is that possible under the varying circumstances you describe?
6. Why have you 'trickle-truthed' us with her sexual proclivities--unless you thought that might affect our advice?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> Most people have been brought up with traditional beliefs, values and behaviors (that is why they are considered "traditional" LOL )
> 
> One of the challenges people with deep-seated traditional beliefs and values face is that they believe others subscribe to those same beliefs, values and behaviors as well.
> 
> ...


I miss quoted.

It was not John Gorman that made the sexual Ferrari vs moped analogy. 

It was Dr Daniel Glover.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

@zbrown210 , I would recommend you look up the term “Covert Contracts” and become very familiar with that concept. 

I think you may have some covert contracts at play here that I believe will come back and bite you in the arse very hard. 

I think you are expecting some attitudes, beliefs, behaviors and expectations of her that she may not be willing or even capable of carrying out. 

You are going to need some very hard and serious discussions on whether you two are a match and if this relationship is right for either one of you.


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## zbrown210 (Oct 10, 2020)

manowar said:


> Dude Im starting to think you are a troll. If not you are the most naive man walking the planet. You live in a hallmark movie fantasy world of roses and chocolates. read the books I recommended in my prior post. Read them for your own sake. Stop putting your head in the sand. read the thread by Joka (old thread 2014). He realized he was a chump. You are the stable guy she sees as providing a safe home and respectability. Your the plain vanilla commitment beta guy. She's going to get bored fast. Read the Predatory Female for another version of what marriage is. One you are not aware of. It was written by an airline pilot. You are going to end up as a future chump. Does this chick have a high body count? Big red flag. Is she seeing other guys? I bet you have suspicions. Does she talk about other men? Find out her whereabouts when you don't see her for a few days and she texts you stuff like "miss you"; "thinking of you". She might have an ex on the side. things to consider. Why does she want to marry you? Due diligence. It beats the misery of what Joka and many others went through. You don't seem like a confident leader to me.


I can promise you I'm not a troll. I can also promise that I'm not the unconfident leader you think I am. Yes I may be someone who values commitment but that doesnt mean I am a beta man. On the contrary I value commitment and value the commitment that we both have put I to the relationship thus far that's why I'm not just going to throw it away willy nilly. I can track her phone and know her whereabouts every min we are apart. I do agree that due diligence is needed and part of that is coming on a place like her to get advice on things I may not have thought about. 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## hinterdir (Apr 17, 2018)

zbrown210 said:


> I dont know if she wants to have a threesome but rather she thinks I should have like a 1 night stand before we get married
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


I think her saying that means SHE will not be satisfied with a monogamous marriage and SHE will want to get some other action through life and not be stuck with just you. That is why she doesn't care if you do it...it makes it easier for her to be able to do it too. 

I do not expect her to be a faithful, monogamous, till death wife who will only be sexual with you. 
She wants other stuff and other people too to "keep it fresh". 
Her being willing to do this stuff sexually to other married men, her stating YOU will be bored with monogamy and you need some other women and her apparently being ok with that....these are red flags everywhere that your values and hers do not match up and she will not be monogamous going into the future.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

hinterdir said:


> I think her saying that means SHE will not be satisfied with a monogamous marriage and SHE will want to get some other action through life and not be stuck with just you. That is why she doesn't care if you do it...it makes it easier for her to be able to do it too.
> 
> I do not expect her to be a faithful, monogamous, till death wife who will only be sexual with you.
> She wants other stuff and other people too to "keep it fresh".
> Her being willing to do this stuff sexually to other married men, her stating YOU will be bored with monogamy and you need some other women and her apparently being ok with that....these are red flags everywhere that your values and hers do not match up and she will not be monogamous going into the future.


This is called projection. She is applying her values onto him and assuming that he will want to be with other people as well. She isn't connecting the dots that he is relationship oriented and traditionally monogamous in his attitudes and values, just like he isn't connecting the dots that she is not traditional and monogamous. 

They are each seeing each other through their own lenses. We all do that to a certain degree but it is important for him to open his eyes and see clearly what he is getting himself in to.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

zbrown210 said:


> I can promise you I'm not a troll. I can also promise that I'm not the unconfident leader you think I am. Yes I may be someone who values commitment but that doesnt mean I am a beta man. On the contrary I value commitment and value the commitment that we both have put I to the relationship thus far that's why I'm not just going to throw it away willy nilly. I can track her phone and know her whereabouts every min we are apart. I do agree that due diligence is needed and part of that is coming on a place like her to get advice on things I may not have thought about.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


So, knowing what she knows about how you think, your values, how do you rationalize her belief that you should have a one-night-stand or similar prior to marriage?


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## hinterdir (Apr 17, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> I want to add one other thing.
> 
> I get the feeling you may be a bit of a rescuer and a white knight with a bit of a Knight In Shining Armor complex.
> 
> ...


Dude you have a hard on for that prostitute. lol


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

zbrown210 said:


> I can promise you I'm not a troll. I can also promise that I'm not the unconfident leader you think I am. Yes I may be someone who values commitment but that doesnt mean I am a beta man. On the contrary I value commitment and value the commitment that we both have put I to the relationship thus far that's why I'm not just going to throw it away willy nilly. I can track her phone and know her whereabouts every min we are apart. I do agree that due diligence is needed and part of that is coming on a place like her to get advice on things I may not have thought about.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


Her suggesting that you go and have sex with someonee else isnt her being committed. Far from it. Also if you cant trust her without tracking her what does that say?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

hinterdir said:


> Dude you have a hard on for that prostitute. lol


Not a hard on. 

But I think she is more aware of the situation and looking at things more realistically than he is. 

With each new post he makes, he sounds more like he has his head in the sand and she sounds more like she is looking at the situation more realistically than he is. 

That doesn't mean I want her to go out for luncheons with my mother and sister or bear my children and share a mortgage and retirement account with me (I don't even do that with my wife of 25 years), nor do I necessarily think he should either.


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## hinterdir (Apr 17, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> Not a hard on.
> 
> But I think she is more aware of the situation and looking at things more realistically than he is.
> 
> ...


So does she. Why is SHE with this guy? She's as slow and misguided as him. They are both insane for trying to be with the other in a "marriage". 
Neither one of them should have anything to do with the other romantically.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

hinterdir said:


> So does she. Why is SHE with this guy? She's as slow and misguided as him. They are both insane for trying to be with the other in a "marriage".
> Neither one of them should have anything to do with the other romantically.


If we took insanity and misguided relationships out of the mix, the human race would be gone in less than 100 years.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

zbrown210 said:


> She has also said on several occasions she thinks I'll get bored with monogamy since I've only had a couple sexual partners in my life, and thinks I should (with her permission) sleep with another person before we get married.


All other things aside, ^^THIS^^ is a clear indication that you two are incompatible when it comes to your views and approach to sex. C'mon man ... there just HAS to be another woman on this planet you can fall in love with who actually has a similar outlook on sex!


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## Galabar01 (Mar 20, 2019)

zbrown210 said:


> ....
> She has also said on several occasions she thinks I'll get bored with monogamy since I've only had a couple sexual partners in my life, and thinks I should (with her permission) sleep with another person before we get married. ...


That is a _huge_ red flag. She is probably trying to relieve her guilt for cheating on you. At the least, it shows terrible boundaries and a screwed up view of a monogamous relationship.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

zbrown210 said:


> She has also said *on several occasions* she thinks I'll get bored with monogamy since I've only had a couple sexual partners in my life, and _*thinks I should (with her permission) sleep with another person*_ before we get married. I have expressed that I am firmly against this and I would consider anything of the such cheating.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


This of course is the quote of the day. But there's more to it than just her suggesting he should sleep with someone else.

She has done so *on several occasions*. Despite his protestations that it doesn't fit his views/ethics/morals, she keeps at it. So, to @zbrown210 - is this a suggestion, a request, or a demand? Is this something where she doesn't see a future if you don't? Because it seems strange she'd keep at you for something you've made it clear you're uncomfortable with. 

Is the problem that you've forgotten your "safe" word and can't escape?


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

ZBrown,

One thing I’ve noticed, in the small amount that you wrote, is that your fiancé has not had long relationships in the past. Even your engagement has happened in just 8 months.

You might want to look into why her marriage failed, and even why her lesbian relationship failed, were both due to cheating, or some sort of swing/poly that went sour.

It’s often true that a person who cheats in a relationship will claim abuse or rewrite history when in fact the disorder began with their cheating.

Curious that her “friends” were in the BDSM community, you have to ask why she had those friends.

It is also especially worrisome that she gets upset if you dig into her past too much, I would suspect there is a lot there and many ex’es you need to know about. 
This is known as historical honesty, if she thinks your number is too low it implies that her number is too high. If she’s not willing to divulge her past then you should end it.

I really think you can keep your job or your fiancé but not both, and I don't think you can keep your fiance long term.

Her allowing you cheat on you is a really big red flag and shows she is not monogamous, and this is a baby step, in her mind, into a completely open marriage.

From everything you wrote however, I would just end it.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

A final thought. Some pre-marriage marriage counseling might be a good idea. Many of the comments are about setting marriage boundaries. Some of her concerns are about marriage/sex getting boring. These should be things that are explicitly discussed before marriage. Also having a vision of what the two of them envision in 5, 10, 15, 25 years may help determine if they are both entering into a marriage they want to last until death, or one that will last only as long as it still remains fun and easy. As someone who has been married to the same woman for 49 years, marriages have rough spots and it is the commitment of both partners that can keep things going during the hard times. Now is a good time to find out about each others boundaries and commitment to a long term marriage.


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## manowar (Oct 3, 2020)

zbrown210 said:


> I value commitment and value the commitment that we both have put I to the relationship thus far that's why I'm not just going to throw it away willy nilly. I can track her phone and know her whereabouts every min we are apart. I do agree that due diligence is needed


you finally said something! perhaps you have leadership qualities at some level. that's all good. You are a nice guy. that stands out in all your posts. You don't like offending people. You also have a blue pill view of the world. This is a false narrative fed to you from childhood by the media and society. Unplug. Look at the rational male videos on the red pill. You also don't understand male-female dynamics. That's because you were raised on the matriarchal view that is supported by all churches. The Church is a big mind phuckk for young men. It's an illusory view of those dynamics that favors the matriarchy. . did the Church ever tell you that you now have a third party as part of your marriage? The state. Did your paster mention the ramifications of no-fault divorce? Did he tell you that even if your wife carries on affairs with multiple men that it doesn't matter? You still pay half. Did he tell you your wife can divorce you because she thinks your boring even though you did everything to make her happy?

I can't change your ingrained views with a few posts.. that's why i recommended those books that speak of realities. It's called the marriage-divorce industry. It's huge and it's run by the matriarchy. It favors females. the males who don't understand it are the male drones who willing support the Marriage-Divorce industry. Read the Predatory female Immediately. Women have motives. Its not always about love like in the movies. Once they get married they have what they want and return to their true behavior that's often hidden from the male. You don't understand a key principle. Women control sex. It's their power. But Men control commitment. She needs you to commit to her in marriage to get what she wants. The legal marriage that binds you to the state. Your thinking is in the church view of mutual commitmentWrong! Only you can commit through the act of marriage. This is the goal of all females. Her commitment to you may be something very different than what you think it is. Her vows may not mean just being with you. read the thread from Joka. Good to see you're doing that due diligence. You have to find out about her history. Have a PI do a thorough back ground check.[/QUOTE]


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

zbrown210 said:


> We've had a couple but it usually gets tense because she feels like I'm digging and doesnt always like opening up about her past. As for the future these will definitely be things we need to discuss
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


And this harkens back to @oldshirt 's question:
"Has he given her an *open and safe and nonjudgmental venue* to have these serious discussions?"
And a key point here is that she has to feel that the environment is that you. You thinking it is doesn't make it so. If she feels like you're digging, then odds are it's not feeling nonjudgemental to her.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

Diana7 said:


> You are already engaged to be married, the time to find out is now. You dont need to delve into her past, you need to tell her that if you stay together then any sort of sexual activity (including what she did in the past)outside marriage for both if you is a complete no no. The fact that she has already suggested that shows to me that she wont remain faithful.
> 
> Many of us here can see that you are far from being compatable, but you are refusing to see it despite the many alarm bells and red flags.


While there seems to be two different camps on the woman herself, it does seem rather unanimous that this is not a compatible couple.


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## manowar (Oct 3, 2020)

I took this from Glover's book, No More Mr. Nice Guy.

*Nice Guys are addictive*. Addictive behavior serves the purpose of relieving stress, altering moods, or medicating pain. Since Nice Guys tend to keep so much bottled up inside, it has to come out somewhere. One of the most common addictive behaviors for Nice Guys is sexual compulsiveness.

*Nice Guys have difficulty setting boundaries*. Many Nice Guys have a hard time saying "no," "stop," or "I'm going to." They often feel like helpless victims and see the other person as the cause of the problems they are experiencing.

*Nice Guys are frequently isolated*. Though Nice Guys desire to be liked and loved, their behaviors actually make it difficult for people to get very close to them.

*Nice Guys are often attracted to people and situations that need fixing.* This behavior is often the result of the Nice Guy's childhood conditioning, his need to look good, or his quest for approval. Unfortunately, this tendency pretty much guarantees that Nice Guys will spend most of their time putting out fires and managing crises.

*Nice Guys frequently have problems in intimate relationships*. Though Nice Guys often put tremendous emphasis on this part of their lives, their intimate relationships are frequently a source of struggle and frustration. For example:lNice Guys are often terrible listeners because they are too busy trying to figure out how to defend themselves or fix the other person's problem.lBecause of their fear of conflict, they are frequently dishonest and are rarely available to work all the way through a problem.lIt is not unusual for Nice Guys to form relationships with partners whom they believe to be "projects" or "diamonds in the rough." When these projects don't polish up as expected, Nice Guys tend to blame their partner for standing in the way of their happiness.

*Nice Guys have issues with sexuality.* Though most Nice Guys deny having problems with sex, I have yet to meet one who isn't either dissatisfied with his sex life, has a sexual dysfunction (can't get or maintain an erection, climaxes too quickly), or has sexually acted out (through affairs, prostitution, pornography, compulsive masturbation, etc.).

*Nice Guys are usually only relatively successful.* The majority of Nice Guys I've met have been talented, intelligent, and moderately successful. Almost without exception though, they fail to live up to their full potential.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

I am married to a REALLY nice guy but those things dont apply to him.


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

zbrown210 said:


> I dont know if all the mens wives knew or not. My next question though would be even if they did know, I would consider that cheating or being unfaithful. What do you guys think.
> She has also said on several occasions she thinks I'll get bored with monogamy since I've only had a couple sexual partners in my life, and thinks I should (with her permission) sleep with another person before we get married. I have expressed that I am firmly against this and I would consider anything of the such cheating.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


She is asking permission TO DO the same. She is telling you that she doesn't believe in monogamy and will want to have sex with others later on in the marriage.


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## Kpeter (Oct 18, 2020)

I have a similar problem that I would like to discuss but don't know how to initiate a topic here.


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## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

Diana7 said:


> I am married to a REALLY nice guy but those things dont apply to him.


Then you aren't doing it right.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

SpinyNorman said:


> Then you aren't doing it right.


What right?


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## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

Diana7 said:


> What right?


Just a joke that you are happy b/c you screwed up some how.


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## manowar (Oct 3, 2020)

Something led you here. that's your subconscious speaking to you. Something in your gut doesn't feel right. Let's call it your male nature. Males' interior alarm bell rings loudly when we are confronted with a mate or mating with a woman who has been railed dozens of times. We just don't like it. We don't want it. It suggests a lack of loyalty at best and plain inability to control one's behavior. I'm being nice of course. Characteristics that make for a crappy wife. You know that s/t doesn't feel right. At least you haven't yet drunk the entire piture of religious propaganda that you've been spoon-fed. Many of your Christian brethren would convince themselves nothing was off and assume all responsibility for wife and child that isn't even theirs. Your church, regardless of denomination encourages this kind of thing. Who runs your church. The Pastor? No. It's the church ladies. The church is a matriarchal support and power system. Maybe you're a male feminist and find me offensive. 

Getting back to the child. It isn't yours. Your woman is a single mother. This eliminates a high percentage of potential marriage partners for her. Because a lot of guys she finds attractive and has gotten with in the past will not marry a single mother. You on the other hand are a white knight and see this sort of thing as honorable and "the right thing to do". Your church encourages the marrying of single mothers. They refer to it as "manning up". Again it's a matriarchal system that doesn't explain the horrific consequences of doing so when things disintegrate. 

You have options:

1. this is a fine woman for dating. But she isn't marriage material. Date her until she dumps you. Then move on.

2. I'm assuming you are in your mid-thirties. These are your prime years for attracting women. Find a nice family girl who is 27/28 that desires a family and motherhood. This is a girl in which vetting need not be required. She's been with a couple of guys and doesn't know what BDSM is.

3. Smarten up. Read the books I recommended. One more. The 3% Male by Corey Wayne. You can choose to live in your made-up illusory world or unplug and see the world for how it really is.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

manowar said:


> Something led you here. that's your subconscious speaking to you. Something in your gut doesn't feel right. Let's call it your male nature. Males' interior alarm bell rings loudly when we are confronted with a mate or mating with a woman who has been railed dozens of times. We just don't like it. We don't want it. It suggests a lack of loyalty at best and plain inability to control one's behavior. I'm being nice of course. Characteristics that make for a crappy wife. You know that s/t doesn't feel right. At least you haven't yet drunk the entire piture of religious propaganda that you've been spoon-fed. Many of your Christian brethren would convince themselves nothing was off and assume all responsibility for wife and child that isn't even theirs. Your church, regardless of denomination encourages this kind of thing. Who runs your church. The Pastor? No. It's the church ladies. The church is a matriarchal support and power system. Maybe you're a male feminist and find me offensive.
> 
> Getting back to the child. It isn't yours. Your woman is a single mother. This eliminates a high percentage of potential marriage partners for her. Because a lot of guys she finds attractive and has gotten with in the past will not marry a single mother. You on the other hand are a white knight and see this sort of thing as honorable and "the right thing to do". Your church encourages the marrying of single mothers. They refer to it as "manning up". Again it's a matriarchal system that doesn't explain the horrific consequences of doing so when things disintegrate.
> 
> ...


This ^^^^^^^^^^


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

manowar said:


> Something led you here. that's your subconscious speaking to you. Something in your gut doesn't feel right. Let's call it your male nature. Males' interior alarm bell rings loudly when we are confronted with a mate or mating with a woman who has been railed dozens of times. We just don't like it. We don't want it. It suggests a lack of loyalty at best and plain inability to control one's behavior. I'm being nice of course. Characteristics that make for a crappy wife. You know that s/t doesn't feel right. At least you haven't yet drunk the entire piture of religious propaganda that you've been spoon-fed. Many of your Christian brethren would convince themselves nothing was off and assume all responsibility for wife and child that isn't even theirs. Your church, regardless of denomination encourages this kind of thing. Who runs your church. The Pastor? No. It's the church ladies. The church is a matriarchal support and power system. Maybe you're a male feminist and find me offensive.
> 
> Getting back to the child. It isn't yours. Your woman is a single mother. This eliminates a high percentage of potential marriage partners for her. Because a lot of guys she finds attractive and has gotten with in the past will not marry a single mother. You on the other hand are a white knight and see this sort of thing as honorable and "the right thing to do". Your church encourages the marrying of single mothers. They refer to it as "manning up". Again it's a matriarchal system that doesn't explain the horrific consequences of doing so when things disintegrate.
> 
> ...


This is interesting, in that, my life went pretty much against the grain of this advice and I have only been married once and still am. We are into our thirtieth year together and our twenty sixth of marriage.

I wasn't a Christian when I met the single mother who would become my wife, far from it.

She had a terrible track record with two ex husbands whom she had cheated on, they did first, and a less than stellar sexual history of promiscuous behavior including bedding two married men.

She was also 31 to my 20 but I was a wild one back then and had bedded around 60 women and turned away hundreds more.

She got me into church eventually and I definitely see some of the ******** feminist tendencies you spoke about but those views aren't biblical.

I did butt heads with many in the church but they had no arguments when I backed my stance biblically.

I am a biblical man and that doesn't include being weak.

I am for men marrying single mothers if both parties are up for it and everything else lines up.

This particular situation is ticklish because the lady has a very colorful past that hasn't been solidly put in the past.

She has other issues that don't inspire hope like wanting her fiance to have sex with someone else.

I don't think he should marry her right now because she still needs a couple of issues ironed out but not for the reasons you are presenting.

Mrs. Conan has been a very good wife by most objective standards and gave me a son of my own who gave us three grandchildren already.

I agree that weak men shouldn't marry a single mother but I don't think weak men should reproduce at all personally.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

I’m assuming you have not told your grandmother about this gal’s history.

Because it is a good bet that if you said to her. - “grandma, I’m engaged to this really wonderful girl. She has a kid from another man, she used to tie up, flog and stick things up married men’s butts for money and she was donut bumping with another woman right before I came along. And not only that, she wants me to bang other chicks now so I don’t get bored....”, We would not be having this discussion here.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

oldshirt said:


> I’m assuming you have not told your grandmother about this gal’s history.
> 
> Because it is a good bet that if you said to her. - “grandma, I’m engaged to this really wonderful girl. She has a kid from another man, she used to tie up, flog and stick things up married men’s butts for money and she was donut bumping with another woman right before I came along....”, We would not be having this discussion here.


😆😆😆😆😆
That made me laugh!!!

Seriously though, I didn't discuss Mrs. Conan's sexual history with my grandmother. I can't imagine too many men doing that.😉


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

ConanHub said:


> 😆😆😆😆😆
> That made me laugh!!!
> 
> Seriously though, I didn't discuss Mrs. Conan's sexual history with my grandmother. I can't imagine too many men doing that.😉


There’s a reason men don’t discuss their women of questionable repute with their grandmothers. 

If you think people here are harsh 😲


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

manowar said:


> At least you haven't yet drunk the entire piture of religious propaganda that you've been spoon-fed. Many of your Christian brethren would convince themselves nothing was off and assume all responsibility for wife and child that isn't even theirs. Your church, regardless of denomination encourages this kind of thing. Who runs your church. The Pastor? No. It's the church ladies. The church is a matriarchal support and power system.
> 
> Getting back to the child. It isn't yours. Your woman is a single mother. This eliminates a high percentage of potential marriage partners for her. Because a lot of guys she finds attractive and has gotten with in the past will not marry a single mother. You on the other hand are a white knight and see this sort of thing as honorable and "the right thing to do". Your church encourages the marrying of single mothers. They refer to it as "manning up". Again it's a matriarchal system that doesn't explain the horrific consequences of doing so when things disintegrate.


This above is very true IMHO.

I think many a church matriarchy as well as feminist societal narratives in general want these beta providers to take on these single mothers so as to get them off of the public dole and off of the church donation list and so they spout this narrative of “stepping up” to fill the support and paternal role.

They market it as something noble and honorable.

However what do you think those very same church ladies do to their sons or grand sons if they start showing an interest in those soiled doves?????

It becomes a whole other story when it’s their own son/grandson doesn’t it. That is when the slap upside the head and the boot up the butt and telling them to pull their head out of their arse comes into play.

It’s chivalrous and honorable when it’s someone else’s son; But it’s a thwop upside the head if their own flesh and blood gets any crazy ideas.


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## manowar (Oct 3, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> I think many a church matriarchy as well as feminist societal narratives in general want these beta providers to take on these single mothers so as to get them off of the public dole and off of the church donation list and so they spout this narrative of “stepping up” to fill the support and paternal role.


you nailed it. this is an agenda of the religious institutions. the burden of course is redistributed to the unwitting 30 something beta, nice guy, males who for the most part are inexperienced with women and relationships. the female is always positioned as the prize with the male being fortunate to have finally won her love. The man's patience has paid off. He's even lucky. These are the same women who ignored these guys when the guys were in their 20s. the women in their prime 20s sought out the so-called bad boys and didn't give these nice guys the time of day. the nice guys played by the societal blue pill narrative channeled to us from childhood through the media, movies, tv, religion, education -- flowers, chivalry, the pedestal, the prize, the weaker sex, fragile female, a man's future potential as a good prospect, the romantic comedy drivel and so on. So what you end up with are these nice guys who are clueless when it comes to female nature.

When i slowly began to recognize this dynamic it literally blew my mind. In my 20s, I witnessed female behavior that simply didn't match up with what I had been programmed to believe. Dad was a blue pill alpha so he was outdated in this area. Plus he came up in the old social order. This is the reason why a vast majority of the baby boomer males do not understand this intersexual dynamic and will even reject female nature. Boomer males in great numbers adhere to the old social order they were raised on. by my thirties, i caught on to a good chunk of it. Must say i dodged a few bullets. One bazooka blast similar to the OP (not as extreme). Fortunately, I didn't suffer from nice guy personality syndrome. In a way, men from the 1980s thru the present have been playing the mating game in which they don't know the rules. I expected the 1950s rules, in the 80s, and encountered something far different.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

SpinyNorman said:


> Just a joke that you are happy b/c you screwed up some how.


OH OK.


oldshirt said:


> This above is very true IMHO.
> 
> I think many a church matriarchy as well as feminist societal narratives in general want these beta providers to take on these single mothers so as to get them off of the public dole and off of the church donation list and so they spout this narrative of “stepping up” to fill the support and paternal role.
> 
> ...


Honestly I would have no problem at all if one of my children married someone who already had a young child. I know several people who have done so and its worked out really well. God says that He puts the lonely into families, and He loves it when He can bring people together, give the child or children two parents and make that family unit. What better than to give that child a father if he or she doesnt have one. What better than to give that child a mother if they dont have one. God loves to restore and give people fresh starts and new beginnings.I so love that about Him.

Also I am not sure what churches you guys have been going to but I must have been lucky. I have been to many churches from many denominations and have seen many very good male leaders and role models and believe me the women didnt run the churches.

Having said all this I think this man would be making a massive mistake marrying this lady because of their vast differences in so many other areas.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Diana7 said:


> OH OK.
> 
> Honestly I would have no problem at all if one of my children married someone who already had a young child. I know several people who have done so and its worked out really well. God says that He puts the lonely into families, and He loves it when He can bring people together, give the child or children two parents and make that family unit. What better than to give that child a father if he or she doesnt have one. What better than to give that child a mother if they dont have one. God loves to restore and give people fresh starts and new beginnings.I so love that about Him.
> 
> ...


God may approve when simps take single moms and help raise their kids. I’m not addressing what God wants, that’s his privilege as Supreme Being. 

I’m saying that many of these church ladies that preach to other people’s sons about taking up single mothers will birchslap their own sons for it. 

There’s likely a good bit of hypocrisy taking place when it comes to sons taking in other men’s leftovers and baggage.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> God may approve when simps take single moms and help raise their kids. I’m not addressing what God wants, that’s his privilege as Supreme Being.
> 
> I’m saying that many of these church ladies that preach to other people’s sons about taking up single mothers will birchslap their own sons for it.
> 
> There’s likely a good bit of hypocrisy taking place when it comes to sons taking in other men’s leftovers and baggage.


How many church ladies do you know who were in that exact position, because I know many who would happily do that or be fine with one of their children being so caring, kind and lovely as to do that. I feel very sad that children may be called leftovers or baggage. Children are such a blessing whoever's blood child they are and are certainly not baggage. One couple we knew in a previous church fostered and later adopted 4 siblings. Maybe they were baggage and leftovers as well.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Diana7 said:


> . I have been to many churches from many denominations and have seen many very good male leaders and role models and believe me the women didnt run the churches.


This is probably a better topic for the religion forum.

Dr Laura Schlesinger used to talk about this quite a bit back when she had her radio talk show.

Women may not write religious doctrines. But like the enforcers of motorcycle gangs and the mafia, they break the legs of those who violate them and they are the ones tasked with the day to day compliance with the rules.

Meanwhile the men are going to work, heading off to war and watching football. 

Men may have been the official authors of the rules, but day to day narratives and enforcement in the homes is usually the women. 

Who makes the potato salad and makes sure there are enough table cloths, and makes sure everyone gets the invitation and knows the time and place if the family reunion?

Who makes sure that everyone knows what they are specifically supposed to bring? 

Who gets everyone up in time to get ready and makes sure they are appropriately dressed and the car has gas?

Who talks about and lays on the guilt to those that didn’t attend or brought fried chicken instead of the green bean casserole that they were supposed to bring? 

The men?????? I don’t think so. 

Did the men even notice that one table didn’t have a table cloth or that there were two pans of fried chicken and no green bean casserole? Did they actually even want to be there to begin with? 

Who was actually the driving force of the narrative and general game plan of the reunion? 

Now apply that to a hundred other things that take place in the home, the family, the church and the community day by day. 

The mayor, the school superintendent, the pastor etc etc may usually be male. 

But who is actually monitoring and enforcing the cultural and societal norms and standards down in the trenches at the family and community level? 

Men??? Are they really?? 

My principal/superintendent never once caught me in the act, chewed me out and exerted punishment when I acted up in the classroom or playground. First it was the girls in my class who squeeled and yelled at me and then told the teacher. The teacher then scolded me told me I was bad and told me what the expected behavior was. 

When I did get sent to the principal, he kicked me in the pants and sent me back to the teacher who then watched me like a hawk for the rest of the school year and tore me a new one if I started to push boundaries again. 

Where was the principal the next time I started to act up? Doing the paperwork, writing the checks and watching football. 

This dynamic plays out day in day out the whole world over.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Diana7 said:


> How many church ladies do you know who were in that exact position, because I know many who would happily do that or be fine with one of their children being so caring, kind and lovely as to do that. I feel very sad that children may be called leftovers or baggage. Children are such a blessing whoever's blood child they are and are certainly not baggage. One couple we knew in a previous church fostered and later adopted 4 siblings. Maybe they were baggage and leftovers as well.


They acted that way at the ladies aid luncheon.

Behind closed doors they whacked their sons upside the head and told them to get their head out of their arse and find a decent girl without the baggage.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> There’s a reason men don’t discuss their women of questionable repute with their grandmothers.
> 
> If you think people here are harsh 😲


Good Lord, that's true.

I still remember comments I got from my grandmother when I was a teen, dating in HS.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

I will concede that it is probably a good thing on a macro level that these guys do pick up single moms and their kids. So in that sense it probably is good of the churches and the Diane’s of the world to support them helping out.

But the catch to that is probably the only guys in the world that actually _WANT _to have a single mom over a woman without kids would be pedophiles so they can molest them while the mom is working the night shift at Denny’s. 

All else being equal, every single nonpedophilic man on the planet would prefer to be with woman without kids vs her identical twin with kids. 

The reason a single man with no kids of his own would have a woman with kids from another man is because he is settling and not able to get a similar woman without kids. 

Since when men write here looking for advise and perspective, they are weighing what would be best FOR THEM and not necessarily what is best for society. 

Since no single man would prefer a woman with kids vs one without, I think it is disingenuous to give blanket encouragement to take up single mothers and their brood.

Now that being said, rarely are all things equal. Sometimes the benefits and positive traits and characteristics of the woman outweigh the negatives of the kid(s).

That is what each man in that situation must ask himself and determine. It is on him to determine if he is settling because he’s desperate and just needs to get to the gym and fix himself up to better attract a more suitable mate or whether she really is the right match for him.

The OP in this thread does not sound like a match *AT ALL *with this whip-cracking, donut-bumping, open relationship toting dominatrix whether she has a kid with another man or not.


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

*There’s a reason men don’t discuss their women of questionable repute with their grandmothers. *

At one time they didn't need to their grandmothers already knew, and they still do in some countries where reputations are considered local news. 

At least part of what kept my W with me is that OM1.1 or .2 would not have passed the sniff test with my old country in laws.


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

My thinking about single moms, before I got married or committed, was that you were fighting with an unbreakable link to her ex which cannot be negotiated. Even more so to her ex'es parents who love their grandchildren unconditionally and often low the ex more than their own child. I got a view of this when my much older brother married a single mother.


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## hinterdir (Apr 17, 2018)

Kpeter said:


> I have a similar problem that I would like to discuss but don't know how to initiate a topic here.





Diana7 said:


> OH OK.
> 
> Honestly I would have no problem at all if one of my children married someone who already had a young child. I know several people who have done so and its worked out really well. God says that He puts the lonely into families, and He loves it when He can bring people together, give the child or children two parents and make that family unit. What better than to give that child a father if he or she doesnt have one. What better than to give that child a mother if they dont have one. God loves to restore and give people fresh starts and new beginnings.I so love that about Him.
> 
> ...


When I was dating. I never considered any woman with a child. I wanted my own kids and I didn't want to start out with someone who had a child and with a kid right from the start who has someone else for a dad. 
When I was dating....any woman who had ever been married before was a deal breaker. Any woman with a child was a deal breaker. 

Now as someone older who has a wife and I have kids.....if I were to be a widower, for example, may tastes would now be open to divorced/widows who have kids because I am older and we'd all be at a different stage of life. I'd expect a 40 year old woman to have kids and to have been married before. 

When I was a single young man who had never been married, no I would never have settled on an instant family with someone else's kids when I hadn't even had my own yet and I wouldn't have settled at being someone's second or third husband when I had never even been married. A woman who had been married before is someone I would have never dated when I was in my 20's and looking for my future wife.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> They acted that way at the ladies aid luncheon.
> 
> Behind closed doors they whacked their sons upside the head and told them to get their head out of their arse and find a decent girl without the baggage.


It's just not my experience of mixing with countless female Christians.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

TAMAT said:


> My thinking about single moms, before I got married or committed, was that you were fighting with an unbreakable link to her ex which cannot be negotiated. Even more so to her ex'es parents who love their grandchildren unconditionally and often low the ex more than their own child. I got a view of this when my much older brother married a single mother.


It depends on the situation. Sometimes there is no or little contact with the bio dad. Sometimes his family know nothing about the child. Sometimes the mother may be a widow. So many scenarios.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

TAMAT said:


> My thinking about single moms, before I got married or committed, was that you were fighting with an unbreakable link to her ex which cannot be negotiated. Even more so to her ex'es parents who love their grandchildren unconditionally and often low the ex more than their own child. I got a view of this when my much older brother married a single mother.


This is a very good point. Obviously, the baggage being carried into the relationship is going to vary from situation to situation. There may be cases where the ex basically no longer exists, for whatever reason. I would personally feel much more comfortable in that scenario than one in which the ex was still active in the child's life. As for fear of the unknown, an ex coming back into the picture years down the road, that wouldn't bother me much. Just one of many things in life we cannot control and have to make the best of.


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## hinterdir (Apr 17, 2018)

Diana7 said:


> How many church ladies do you know who were in that exact position, because I know many who would happily do that or be fine with one of their children being so caring, kind and lovely as to do that. I feel very sad that children may be called leftovers or baggage. Children are such a blessing whoever's blood child they are and are certainly not baggage. One couple we knew in a previous church fostered and later adopted 4 siblings. Maybe they were baggage and leftovers as well.


If either of my kids ever started dating someone who has already had a child I would STRONGLY ADVISE them against doing this and warn them of the many, many problems and issues they'd have, starting a life together already with child (instead of time alone together before children), the issue of another parent out there they'd have to deal with, shared custody, their finances being used for possibly paying alimony or child support, the child disliking them because they aren't dad or mom, the devotion of the dad/mom to the child to where they would be the 2nd priority, conflict in parenting, conflict in rules in the house. I'd STRONGLY advise them to find another guy/gal who is single, no kids, never been married and they can have their OWN kids and have a honeymoon period together with just the 2 of them.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

hinterdir said:


> When I was dating. I never considered any woman with a child. I wanted my own kids and I didn't want to start out with someone who had a child and with a kid right from the start who has someone else for a dad.
> When I was dating....any woman who had ever been married before was a deal breaker. Any woman with a child was a deal breaker.
> 
> Now as someone older who has a wife and I have kids.....if I were to be a widower, for example, may tastes would now be open to divorced/widows who have kids because I am older and we'd all be at a different stage of life. I'd expect a 40 year old woman to have kids and to have been married before.
> ...


My sentiments exactly. Every letter. 

I am now 56 with an 18 and 16 year old. If I were to become widowed or divorced, I would expect anyone I date to likely have a prior marriage and/or children. 

If fact no way in God’s Green Earth would I get with someone that wanted children going forward - I’d take the single mom that didn’t want anymore kids than the childless woman with baby rabies that wanted them going forward.

But now if there were 2 identical twins that were exactly alike and neither wanted more kids but one had kids and the other didn’t - slam dunk, I wouldn’t even think about it, I would opt for the one without and I think the other 3.5 billion men in the world that aren’t pedophiles would choose the same.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

hinterdir said:


> If either of my kids ever started dating someone who has already had a child I would STRONGLY ADVISE them against doing this and warn them of the many, many problems and issues they'd have, starting a life together already with child (instead of time alone together before children), the issue of another parent out there they'd have to deal with, shared custody, their finances being used for possibly paying alimony or child support, the child disliking them because they aren't dad or mom, the devotion of the dad/mom to the child to where they would be the 2nd priority, conflict in parenting, conflict in rules in the house. I'd STRONGLY advise them to find another guy/gal who is single, no kids, never been married and they can have their OWN kids and have a honeymoon period together with just the 2 of them.


I think that my adult children are fine to make their own decisions in life, but if asked I would talk to them and support them whatever they did. I would love that they were kind and caring enough to do this and after all, its character building. DH and I faced similar things and far more difficult things in the first couple of years of our marriage but here we are 16 years later and still very happy and strong together. My adult children have faced many hard things in life and come through with flying colours to be lovely people. I would have no problems with them marrying a person with children.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

Also I am not sure what churches you guys have been going to but I must have been lucky. I have been to many churches from many denominations and have seen many very good male leaders and role models and believe me the women didnt run the churches.
[/QUOTE]

I was thinking same thing. You will not see that in an Apostolic church. What i see is Biblical marriages, men being leader in marriage.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Divinely Favored said:


> Also I am not sure what churches you guys have been going to but I must have been lucky. I have been to many churches from many denominations and have seen many very good male leaders and role models and believe me the women didnt run the churches.


I was thinking same thing. You will not see that in an Apostolic church. What i see is Biblical marriages, men being leader in marriage.
[/QUOTE]
I have been to Anglican, methodist, Vineyard, Baptist and and New frontiers, and as you say, many Biblical marriages and decent men.


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## Hiner112 (Nov 17, 2019)

The gender roles of people in the church are fairly specific in the ones I've been to. For instance, men barbecue the chicken, stir the apple butter, run the sound system, and do the preaching while the women generally play the piano, snit the apples, decorate the sanctuary, and do the small children Sunday school. There are occasionally exceptions but those generalities are accurate 80-90% of the time and there are some jobs like Deacons and non-child Sunday school teachers that are more or less evenly split. As far as enforcing norms, I think there is another division of labor. If there was going to be an official reprimand from the Church, I would expect that to come from one of the men in the leadership positions (this would be extremely rare), while the keeping track of social news, relationships, etc and figuring out who's done wrong is done more by women. The husbands tend to migrate out to the parking lot to their cars while the women have barely left the sanctuary.

I met my ex when I was 20 and she was still a teenager. Teenagers with children have generally made some questionable decisions so if I had been in a position to date someone with a child before I was "taken" it would have been a negative consideration. Single again at 43, children and exes are basically assumed. I get along well with my kids so I would want any step kids to be like them or at least get along with them. If I hadn't met my ex and had been single in my 20s and 30s, I think a woman with a child would have been a complication to a relationship. There would have been a lot more questions (Where is bio dad and what is the relationship like? What would be my expectations as for a parental role? There's probably already an established parental style, so is it compatible with my perspectives and personality?). In terms of agreeableness and friendliness in my experience the hierarchy is basically dogs > kids > adults > cats so kids in general wouldn't be a deterrent.


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

For Completeness.......

My brothers wife who gave me the first glimpse into the entanglement with the ex and ex'es family that happens when you marry a woman with children was not a widow or anything like that. It was a simple divorce due to exH serial cheating, my SIL got sick of smelling other womens perfume she told me.

I should also add that at 70+ years of age my SIL is facebook friends with her ex, something I would shut down with an iron fist, although I suspect my brother would shrug about. He also shrugged when I told him that the ex still owed my SIL about 150K in child support.


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## JustTheWife (Nov 1, 2017)

manowar said:


> Something led you here. that's your subconscious speaking to you. Something in your gut doesn't feel right. Let's call it your male nature. Males' interior alarm bell rings loudly when we are confronted with a mate or mating with a woman who has been railed dozens of times. We just don't like it. We don't want it. It suggests a lack of loyalty at best and plain inability to control one's behavior. I'm being nice of course. Characteristics that make for a crappy wife. You know that s/t doesn't feel right. At least you haven't yet drunk the entire piture of religious propaganda that you've been spoon-fed. Many of your Christian brethren would convince themselves nothing was off and assume all responsibility for wife and child that isn't even theirs.
> .....
> Getting back to the child. It isn't yours. Your woman is a single mother. This eliminates a high percentage of potential marriage partners for her. Because a lot of guys she finds attractive and has gotten with in the past will not marry a single mother. You on the other hand are a white knight and see this sort of thing as honorable and "the right thing to do". Your church encourages the marrying of single mothers. They refer to it as "manning up". Again it's a matriarchal system that doesn't explain the horrific consequences of doing so when things disintegrate.
> 
> ...


This is interesting. I agree that at the instinctual level men are probably naturally wired to have alarm bells going off for promiscuous women and an instinctual drive to avoid them as a marriage partner. Makes sense due to the basic laws of nature and biology around reproduction and the need for male creatures to avoid ending up being a cuckold (the literal meaning of a male raising another male's child) - and historically/traditionally speaking in most cultures, the most de-masculating situation for a man and to be avoided at all costs in the animal world.

So if we agree on basic male instincts for partner selection, how has the basic nature of females evolved to respond to this challenge to adapt to this environment? Our female basic nature (subconscious as you say) is to exude "enough" innocence, purity, chastity when seeking a long term partner - ultimately the biological drive to find a father for our children who will protect us and stay with us for raising children. That's why many women "underestimate" their number of sexual partners (often probably just subconsciously). This makes sense if we agree that males have "alarm bells" for women who've been promiscuous. Biology drives women to attract men by exuding "enough" sexuality while at the same time exuding "enough" innocence and purity to be more attractive as a LT partner and mother of his children. 

So I guess males at the top of the evolutionary reproduction chain (best at attracting a faithful partner to avoid being cuckolded) are better at avoiding promiscuous females. Females at the top of the reproduction chain (best at attracting a male who can and will provide for and protect the children) are best at preserving their reputations and the appearance of "enough" sexual purity. Legends, stories, the bible, etc have covered this theme very well - the idea that women are somehow a "trap" - using the right balance of sexuality and purity. Even female rituals like wearing makeup may be part of this as makeup gives an appearance of pure skin and youth which are associated with innocence. I guess you can say that "sl__ shaming" may have evolved from the fact that no males can accurately "sniff out" women who have been promiscuous and who, by instinct, hide this (even if some machos here claimed these powers) so it's part of hunting in packs -- "marking" (through reputation) the women who are not good for marriage. And women "sl__ shaming" other women I guess is part of the competition for LT partners.

Interesting topic. I've been reading a lot about sexuality related to these kinds of things.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

JustTheWife said:


> This is interesting. I agree that at the instinctual level men are probably naturally wired to have alarm bells going off for promiscuous women and an instinctual drive to avoid them as a marriage partner. Makes sense due to the basic laws of nature and biology around reproduction and the need for male creatures to avoid ending up being a cuckold (the literal meaning of a male raising another male's child) - and historically/traditionally speaking in most cultures, the most de-masculating situation for a man and to be avoided at all costs in the animal world.
> 
> So if we agree on basic male instincts for partner selection, how has the basic nature of females evolved to respond to this challenge to adapt to this environment? Our female basic nature (subconscious as you say) is to exude "enough" innocence, purity, chastity when seeking a long term partner - ultimately the biological drive to find a father for our children who will protect us and stay with us for raising children. That's why many women "underestimate" their number of sexual partners (often probably just subconsciously). This makes sense if we agree that males have "alarm bells" for women who've been promiscuous. Biology drives women to attract men by exuding "enough" sexuality while at the same time exuding "enough" innocence and purity to be more attractive as a LT partner and mother of his children.
> 
> ...


I’m not sure innocence and purity are the right words vs self control and discrimination. 

Basically every man on the planet would screw any reasonably healthy woman if given the opportunity with no cost to him and no consequences. 

With that kind of opportunity afforded to every woman, the one that becomes desirable for marriage and family is the one that can discriminate and demonstrate self control in the face of overwhelming opportunity.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> I’m not sure innocence and purity are the right words vs self control and discrimination.
> 
> Basically every man on the planet would screw any reasonably healthy woman if given the opportunity with no cost to him and no consequences.
> 
> With that kind of opportunity afforded to every woman, the one that becomes desirable for marriage and family is the one that can discriminate and demonstrate self control in the face of overwhelming opportunity.


You have a very low opinion of men.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Diana7 said:


> You have a very low opinion of men.


He's really not wrong, though.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Livvie said:


> He's really not wrong, though.


He is when he says this '. Basically every man on the planet would screw any reasonably healthy woman if given the opportunity with no cost to him and no consequences'.
There are loads of men who are just not like that, and actually have morals. Men say things like that if they would do it themselves, and then imply that all men are like them to make themselves feel better, but they aren't. Far from it. Its sad whan all men are lumped into one basket. Just just as wrong as if all women are.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

oldshirt said:


> I’m not sure innocence and purity are the right words vs self control and discrimination.
> 
> Basically every man on the planet would screw any reasonably healthy woman if given the opportunity with no cost to him and no consequences.
> 
> With that kind of opportunity afforded to every woman, the one that becomes desirable for marriage and family is the one that can discriminate and demonstrate self control in the face of overwhelming opportunity.





Diana7 said:


> You have a very low opinion of men.





Livvie said:


> He's really not wrong, though.


That's way too easy to just put out there as if it's some sort of universal truth. It's not. And here's why. If you take away cost and consequences, it changes every decision for every person. Not just about sex, but everything. If cheating had no costs or consequences? If drinking had no costs or consequences? Basically if you pretend there is no such thing as risky behavior because there are no risks. That's a really absurd notion.

You can try and make the claim that society has imposed a different set of costs and consequences on men vs women or race or whatever you choose, and that might be a valid discussion. But to throw it out there that men would rape and pillage if there were no costs or consequences, and use that to suggest that men are, in general, bad... it's just wrong.


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## JustTheWife (Nov 1, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> I’m not sure innocence and purity are the right words vs self control and discrimination.
> 
> Basically every man on the planet would screw any reasonably healthy woman if given the opportunity with no cost to him and no consequences.
> 
> With that kind of opportunity afforded to every woman, the one that becomes desirable for marriage and family is the one that can discriminate and demonstrate self control in the face of overwhelming opportunity.


I don't know the best words to use but I think you are basically saying the same thing. @manowar's point was that men are instinctually wired to have alarm bells go off with promiscuous women (those without self-control and discrimination to use your words). He was talking in the context of men choosing a LT/marriage partner, not about someone they just "screw". My point was that if that's true, women would be naturally "wired" to avoid appearing promiscuous and setting off those alarm bells to potential LT/marriage partners.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Diana7 said:


> He is when he says this '. Basically every man on the planet would screw any reasonably healthy woman if given the opportunity with no cost to him and no consequences'.
> There are loads of men who are just not like that, and actually have morals. Men say things like that if they would do it themselves, and then imply that all men are like them to make themselves feel better, but they aren't. Far from it. Its sad whan all men are lumped into one basket. Just just as wrong as if all women are.


It’s a general concept. Not a practical fact. 

If there were no costs or consequences, yes, pretty much every man would have sex with a healthy woman if she was willing. 

But there is no such thing as no costs or consequences. Everything comes with costs and consequences in the real world. 

But my point still remains valid. A healthy woman has a whole world of opportunity and how she deals with that opportunity will depend largely on her own set of costs and potential consequences. 

A woman that basically gives it away for free and with little imposed consequences will have a very long line of those willing to to indulge. 

Most LTR/marriage oriented men will not want to be one of a long line.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

JustTheWife said:


> I don't know the best words to use but I think you are basically saying the same thing. @manowar's point was that men are instinctually wired to have alarm bells go off with promiscuous women (those without self-control and discrimination to use your words). He was talking in the context of men choosing a LT/marriage partner, not about someone they just "screw". My point was that if that's true, women would be naturally "wired" to avoid appearing promiscuous and setting off those alarm bells to potential LT/marriage partners.


Makes sense.

It may also stand to reason that things like daddy issues, CSA, drug/alcohol abuse etc etc can screw up that natural wiring in women, and things like mommy issues and lack of positive male role models in men can screw up their wiring and lead to things like White Knight Syndrome and lack of confidence and common sense when it comes to women and make them more likely to take up with or try to “rescue” a train wreck.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Casual Observer said:


> But to throw it out there that men would rape and pillage if there were no costs or consequences, and use that to suggest that men are, in general, bad... it's just wrong.


This is getting beyond the scope of this thread and may some how be a topic of another thread, but as I said above, there is no such thing as no costs or consequences. 

What you and Diana are referring are ethics and morality. Ethics and morality come from how we deal with costs and consequences and how we balance between cost/consequences vs benefit. 

Since costs and consequences are ever present, then soo are ethics and morality and each individual will have his/her own set of ethics and morality in dealing with any given situation. 

I was talking about a general concept and have faith that readers here will be enlightened enough to know that I am not meaning every single man would screw some random gal in the real world in the literal sense. 

Ethics and morality will always be in play because costs and consequences will always be in play. 

But my point still stands that when you peel back all those layers, women have almost unlimited opportunity for sex. 

Most men will seek women that have demonstrated a sense of self control, discipline and discrimination in how they deal with that level of opportunity for a LTR.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Diana7 said:


> He is when he says this '. Basically every man on the planet would screw any reasonably healthy woman if given the opportunity with no cost to him and no consequences'.
> There are loads of men who are just not like that, and actually have morals. Men say things like that if they would do it themselves, and then imply that all men are like them to make themselves feel better, but they aren't. Far from it. Its sad whan all men are lumped into one basket. Just just as wrong as if all women are.


Yes men have ethics and morals because there is no such thing as a complete absence of costs and consequences.

I was discussing a general concept that is not really applicable in real world practice. 

But the principle applies in that women have basically unlimited opportunity for sex should they so choose it. If they remove much of the barriers of costs and consequences, the men will line up. 

Many men would not fund such a woman desirable for a long term partner or mother of their children.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

Livvie said:


> He's really not wrong, though.


Yes he is. I know a lot of guys, me included, that are/were looking for The One and not just playing the field.

There are alot of guys and girls that are also out tgere being loose and immoral.


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## hinterdir (Apr 17, 2018)

JustTheWife said:


> I don't know the best words to use but I think you are basically saying the same thing. @manowar's point was that men are instinctually wired to have alarm bells go off with promiscuous women (those without self-control and discrimination to use your words). He was talking in the context of men choosing a LT/marriage partner, not about someone they just "screw". My point was that if that's true, women would be naturally "wired" to avoid appearing promiscuous and setting off those alarm bells to potential LT/marriage partners.


True.... to a point.
A think the main reality is you are not saying women hence want to be non-promiscuous but rather to be promiscuous and then lie about it.
"appear" not "be".


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## JustTheWife (Nov 1, 2017)

hinterdir said:


> True.... to a point.
> A think the main reality is you are not saying women hence want to be non-promiscuous but rather to be promiscuous and then lie about it.
> "appear" not "be".


I guess we can follow the logic. If males have evolved "in nature" to have alarm bells for promiscuous women (to avoid choosing them for LTR and having children together) then I guess it's logical to conclude one or the other. 

But women of prime pregnancy years often have a high sex drive (nature's way of promoting reproduction). My view is that it's more logical to conclude that women's nature is to be demure/non-promiscuous when looking for a LT partner/father or when presenting herself to a male who is a candidate for that. If we're talking about nature or instinct, I don't think it's a matter of "wanting" to be promiscuous or not or lying about it or not. We're talking about subconscious kind of stuff. Likewise, @manowar was talking about nature's alarm bells, not what men "want". They may be the same or not, but it's about instinct and nature. People might "want" to go against natural instincts or not. That's not the point.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Divinely Favored said:


> Yes he is. I know a lot of guys, me included, that are/were looking for The One and not just playing the field.


You’re talking about conscious choice.

I’m talking about primal hardwiring.


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## manowar (Oct 3, 2020)

JustTheWife said:


> women's nature is to be demure/non-promiscuous when looking for a LT partner/father or when presenting herself to a male who is a candidate for that.


 Yep. No question about it as to the above quote. 

I think a guy gets a gut feeling about the promiscuity (P) issue which led the OP here. A P woman might very well make a terrific wife. Some do. P however brings added risk for a LTR . Psychological issues too. Some guys tend to get freaked out by it. that's why aware guys tend to pass on a LTR (marriage) with liberated chicks. I don't want to sound like im some kind of moralist or preacher. For the record, I happen to like the liberated ladies. But when it comes to a LTR why risk it? Being cuckolded is one as mentioned earlier. But just having a big problem on your hands that has to be dealt with. Who needs that crap? Let the unaware nice guys marry them up. Now its the nice guys turn. The NG who was rejected in his twenties gets his shot in his thirties. That's who the P girls tend to turn to for marriage, and these guys end up being the stable provider while the woman likely gets bored over time. threads here are full of this scenario. That's when the wife says stuff like "I love him; he's a terrific father and provider. He does everything right. He's perfect really. But honestly, I was never attracted to him. I thought I'd grow into i. I don't know what's wrong with me." So my advice to the guys is to date long (min 3 years), marry slow, divorce quick. The OP here only dated for 8 months or so. Much too soon. But that's how these NGs are programmed. There is a generation of young men out there who are about to get run over.


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## JustTheWife (Nov 1, 2017)

manowar said:


> Yep. No question about it as to the above quote.
> 
> I think a guy gets a gut feeling about the promiscuity (P) issue which led the OP here. A P woman might very well make a terrific wife. Some do. P however brings added risk for a LTR . Psychological issues too. Some guys tend to get freaked out by it. that's why aware guys tend to pass on a LTR (marriage) with liberated chicks. I don't want to sound like im some kind of moralist or preacher. For the record, I happen to like the liberated ladies. But when it comes to a LTR why risk it? Being cuckolded is one as mentioned earlier. But just having a big problem on your hands that has to be dealt with. Who needs that crap? Let the unaware nice guys marry them up. Now its the nice guys turn. The NG who was rejected in his twenties gets his shot in his thirties. That's who the P girls tend to turn to for marriage, and these guys end up being the stable provider while the woman likely gets bored over time. threads here are full of this scenario. That's when the wife says stuff like "I love him; he's a terrific father and provider. He does everything right. He's perfect really. But honestly, I was never attracted to him. I thought I'd grow into i. I don't know what's wrong with me." So my advice to the guys is to date long (min 3 years), marry slow, divorce quick. The OP here only dated for 8 months or so. Much too soon. But that's how these NGs are programmed. There is a generation of young men out there who are about to get run over.


Many will object strongly to this but I think it's hard to argue with it. Well it's how a lot of people think so whether it "should" be this way or not is not really the main point.

There's the problem of identifying formerly promiscuous women. I think men largely rely on stereotypes for this and it's just simply not reliable. I suppose that in your theory, "false positives" (i.e.men's promiscuity alarm bells going off when she is really a "nice girl" are less problematic but "false negatives" would be dangerous (i.e. men's alarm bells do not identify her past promiscuity). When I was in college, there were a lot of VERY promiscuous girls (ok, myself included) who did not fit the mold. So common. Played around all over and then turned back into a "good girl". Curious that outside of the unreliable stereotypes, how can you tell if a girl has been promiscuous vs maybe just had a couple or a few partners?


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Livvie said:


> He's really not wrong, though.


Yes he is.

There are a lot of men and women who would behave badly given enough opportunity and there are many who won't.

Even in my wild youth, I turned away far more NSA opportunities than I accepted.


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## manowar (Oct 3, 2020)

JustTheWife said:


> Curious that outside of the unreliable stereotypes, how can you tell if a girl has been promiscuous vs maybe just had a couple or a few partners?



date long. Women like to talk. A lot will come out of her mouth over 3 years. Observe behavior. this will tell the guy everything he needs to know.



JustTheWife said:


> When I was in college, there were a lot of VERY promiscuous girls (ok, myself included) who did not fit the mold. So common. Played around all over and then turned back into a "good girl".


This seems to be more of a phase than a preferred lifestyle. How many went on to focus on being monogamous wives and how many continued in their former lifestyle? Some insight here would be interesting. I'm thinking more of the party club chick who has no credentials except looking exceptionally good in heels, mini, and fakeup.some are pretenders marketing themselves by playing a role. others are pure predators that actually believe that they are the prize and hook NGs into marriage. Only way to determine character is to date long. i'm also thinking of the wife who travels and hooks up with johns regularly. They tend to marry the recently divorced nice guy who still adheres to the 1950s dating rules. guys who are clueless. Joka's thread is a great example. Poor guy on his second marriage to traveling saleswomen got run over. Why marry this woman. He could have been a john and avoided big problems with a LTR. the signs had to be there. he didnt know what to look for or just overlooked them. To his credit, he realized he was a chump and divorced quickly.


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## JustTheWife (Nov 1, 2017)

manowar said:


> date long. Women like to talk. A lot will come out of her mouth over 3 years. Observe behavior. this will tell the guy everything he needs to know.
> 
> 
> 
> This seems to be more of a phase than a preferred lifestyle. How many went on to focus on being monogamous wives and how many continued in their former lifestyle? Some insight here would be interesting. I'm thinking more of the party club chick who has no credentials except looking exceptionally good in heels, mini, and fakeup.some are pretenders marketing themselves by playing a role. others are pure predators that actually believe that they are the prize and hook NGs into marriage. Only way to determine character is to date long. i'm also thinking of the wife who travels and hooks up with johns regularly. They tend to marry the recently divorced nice guy who still adheres to the 1950s dating rules. guys who are clueless. Joka's thread is a great example. Poor guy on his second marriage to traveling saleswomen got run over. Why marry this woman. He could have been a john and avoided big problems with a LTR. the signs had to be there. he didnt know what to look for or just overlooked them. To his credit, he realized he was a chump and divorced quickly.


I don't really know how many truly became monogamous. Don't really keep in touch across a big enough number. But these kinds of women are discreet by nature. whatever they ended up doing, i'm sure they don't talk about it much. They know how a "lady" needs to protect her reputation.

It still seems like you're too dependent on "party chick" stereotypes. Maybe for some, dating a longer time helps but a smart girl just knows how to deal with that. Like we agreed before, it's likely just instinctual so not like there's some grand design. So in addition to the instinct/nature of it there's also societal learning - she'll think her past is not relevant to him and she'll be repelled by any "digging" around in her past or asking too many questions that a modern man is not supposed to ask.

Probably not so easy for a man looking for this.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

JustTheWife said:


> I don't really know how many truly became monogamous. Don't really keep in touch across a big enough number. But these kinds of women are discreet by nature. whatever they ended up doing, i'm sure they don't talk about it much. They know how a "lady" needs to protect her reputation.
> 
> It still seems like you're too dependent on "party chick" stereotypes. Maybe for some, dating a longer time helps but a smart girl just knows how to deal with that. Like we agreed before, it's likely just instinctual so not like there's some grand design. So in addition to the instinct/nature of it there's also societal learning - she'll think her past is not relevant to him and she'll be repelled by any "digging" around in her past or asking too many questions that a modern man is not supposed to ask.
> 
> Probably not so easy for a man looking for this.


In days of yore, people lived in tight knit tribes and communities. families, clergy and other forms of tribal elders determined who was and who was not a suitable mate for both the man and the woman.

Women were often betrothed before they were even fertile. 

Adult women living independently in a large population of millions affords a level of anonymity and privacy that has probably never been experienced before in all of human history. 

Clandestine sex has always taken place to one degree or another of course. 

But never before has an adult woman been able to swipe right and meet someone at a motel room in an hour with complete discretion and secrecy before. 

When I was a teen, if wanted to ask a girl on a date, I either had to do it in person when she was with her friends and I was with my buds. Or I had to call her on her house phone in the living room or kitchen with her family in earshot from my house phone in the living room with my family in earshot. 

When I got to school the next day, the whole school knew about it. 

Today, someone could carry on a completely secret life and no one would be any the wiser. 

In the instance of the OP however I don’t think we are dealing with his gut instincts and I don’t recall him saying much about suspicions or anything.

She basically came right out and told him she was whipping and sticking stuff up married men’s butts for money. 

If she’s admitting that, kinda makes you wonder what she’s not ‘fessing up to.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

manowar said:


> Yep. No question about it as to the above quote.
> 
> I think a guy gets a gut feeling about the promiscuity (P) issue which led the OP here. A P woman might very well make a terrific wife. Some do. P however brings added risk for a LTR . Psychological issues too. Some guys tend to get freaked out by it. that's why aware guys tend to pass on a LTR (marriage) with liberated chicks. I don't want to sound like im some kind of moralist or preacher. For the record, I happen to like the liberated ladies. But when it comes to a LTR why risk it? Being cuckolded is one as mentioned earlier. But just having a big problem on your hands that has to be dealt with. Who needs that crap? Let the unaware nice guys marry them up. Now its the nice guys turn. The NG who was rejected in his twenties gets his shot in his thirties. That's who the P girls tend to turn to for marriage, and these guys end up being the stable provider while the woman likely gets bored over time. threads here are full of this scenario. That's when the wife says stuff like "I love him; he's a terrific father and provider. He does everything right. He's perfect really. But honestly, I was never attracted to him. I thought I'd grow into i. I don't know what's wrong with me." So my advice to the guys is to date long (min 3 years), marry slow, divorce quick. The OP here only dated for 8 months or so. Much too soon. But that's how these NGs are programmed. There is a generation of young men out there who are about to get run over.


This NG said you wanted to screw the bad boys so you can keep on getting passed around. I was not good enough then, you are not worthy now.

Time does not necessarily matter. I met my wife end of August 96, moved in together Dec 96 and married May 97. Thing is we were both cheated on. She was married at 16 to get out of abusive home. Outside of her ex she had only hat 2 ons between me and him. So she was not the promiscous type.


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## JustTheWife (Nov 1, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> In days of yore, people lived in tight knit tribes and communities. families, clergy and other forms of tribal elders determined who was and who was not a suitable mate for both the man and the woman.
> 
> Women were often betrothed before they were even fertile.
> 
> ...


I agree with most of what you said. I find this stuff so interesting and i like to read about sociology and sexuality, etc. LIke I tried to say in an earlier post, society had its way of protecting men from promiscuous women via "reputation" or "sl() shaming".

I think it goes beyond just technology like hook up apps, etc. And you could say that technology probably exposes at least as many secrets as it helps to keep...if not far more. but you're right that there are greater opportunities in the modern world. In college, there are parties and a hook up culture and it's been like that i guess for at least many decades. Casual sex is rampant in college and even HS so who do we think was having all this casual sex. It was your wife, girlfriend, fiance, etc. I mean this collectively for men, not you personally, of course.

So maybe we can see it as girls having a lot of casual sex during that part of their lives. Guys are happy to have their fun with that. Never would marry one of THOSE girls that were only good for cheap sex at the time. But then girls are "reborn" as marriage material when they come out of that. Like a clean slate. Guys need to believe that she's not one of THOSE girls. Deep down they must know, if they really thought about it. But they don't. This would have been next to impossible in the age of the tight knit tribe communities that you're talking about. A "loose" woman couldn't just reinvent herself into marriage material. With the way things work in the modern world, men can be presented with an endless population of women for casual sex in college or whatever. Then these same women reinvent themselves into marriage material - recycled into a panel of potential brides. Basically the same women with different names and faces. Don't know her history. Don't want to know. Don't ask - don't tell. You got what you wanted in college and then you get what you want when you go to marry.

Of course, guys are no angels either. Many have unacceptable (or worse) behavior toward women in their party years. Then they reinvent themselves as prince charmings. Perfect gentlemen. That bad treatment was for THOSE kinds of women. Not the marrying kind (or those who now present themselves as the marrying kind).

Does this mean "everyone wins"? "Everyone is happy?" Does the truth really even matter? Or can we reinvent ourselves into whatever we wish?


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Honesty works. I was a bad boy when I met my wife and after screwing her into oblivion the first week we met, she was in all the way.

I also had many offers for long term relationships and marriage.

I also wasn't fooled by anyone into thinking they were pure as the driven snow.

I avoided virgins because I didn't want to hurt anyone and the majority of the women I attracted knew their way around a man.

There seems to be a lot of nonsensical games some might play but I never did and I was never interested in anyone who was.

I can't see wasting time with a bunch of hide your past nonsense when the future is calling.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> You’re talking about conscious choice.
> 
> I’m talking about primal hardwiring.


As humans we are able to live above primal hardwiring if we choose to.


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## JustTheWife (Nov 1, 2017)

ConanHub said:


> Honesty works. I was a bad boy when I met my wife and after screwing her into oblivion the first week we met, she was in all the way.
> 
> I also had many offers for long term relationships and marriage.
> 
> ...


I think it's great that you can accept your wife's colorful past. Not all guys can deal with knowing about all the other guys. Some take it as a threat to their masculinity and can get resentful, especially when the relationship is having problems. From what I see, these issues are real in many relationships. It's like sexual past can be a minefield for many with problems popping up at any time. I guess you could say that we play some nonsense games by being cagey hiding the past but there are also games on the other side where it's suddenly used against us (even if he appeared "cool" with it all originally). Sometimes when a guy feels crossed by a woman, he drags that out and throws it in her face. I think some women here can relate to this. it's like a guy can put it aside at times and then not be able to deal with it at other times. A minefield.

So it's really great that complete openness and honesty works for your relationship.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

JustTheWife said:


> I think it's great that you can accept your wife's colorful past. Not all guys can deal with knowing about all the other guys. Some take it as a threat to their masculinity and can get resentful, especially when the relationship is having problems. From what I see, these issues are real in many relationships. It's like sexual past can be a minefield for many with problems popping up at any time. I guess you could say that we play some nonsense games by being cagey hiding the past but there are also games on the other side where it's suddenly used against us (even if he appeared "cool" with it all originally). Sometimes when a guy feels crossed by a woman, he drags that out and throws it in her face. I think some women here can relate to this. it's like a guy can put it aside at times and then not be able to deal with it at other times. A minefield.
> 
> So it's really great that complete openness and honesty works for your relationship.


The issue is every woman has a past. Some a spouse will be told about, some facts likely never to be shared. 

But really, unless she was a phone sex girl using her real name in the same small town....

A man is best served by evaluating, live from where they both are, now, rely on his judgment and confident self and make a choice, accept or don't. 

Don't continue to bring things up or ride the fence.

Decide either way and let it go.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

JustTheWife said:


> I think it's great that you can accept your wife's colorful past. Not all guys can deal with knowing about all the other guys. Some take it as a threat to their masculinity and can get resentful, especially when the relationship is having problems. From what I see, these issues are real in many relationships. It's like sexual past can be a minefield for many with problems popping up at any time. I guess you could say that we play some nonsense games by being cagey hiding the past but there are also games on the other side where it's suddenly used against us (even if he appeared "cool" with it all originally). Sometimes when a guy feels crossed by a woman, he drags that out and throws it in her face. I think some women here can relate to this. it's like a guy can put it aside at times and then not be able to deal with it at other times. A minefield.
> 
> So it's really great that complete openness and honesty works for your relationship.


I was definitely acknowledging that both sides were playing games. I don't really get the men or women in these situations.

Several of the women I was with seemed bothered about their past when I certainly wasn't.

I did eventually learn their feelings about themselves were very important and that was often tied to how they viewed themselves regarding their pasts.

I might have had an "advantage" by having any illusions about human behavior sexually, eliminated by a pretty early age.

By the time I was 14, not much could really surprise me.

I suppose if I had a different upbringing that I might have had my transition into reality a little later but I would still have arrived there.

I have never really understood men who need to be "protected" , if you will, from their mates history so they feel confident and/or good in the relationship.

If they like each other and are working on their relationship together, that's all anyone should care about.

I do know that there are also women who want to forget their history for a number of reasons and it might not cause problems with their man but they just don't ever want to bring it up because they can't acknowledge or face it.

Life is tough and short. I just don't see the use in spending any of that time or energy dancing around like that.

Summing it up, I think the men playing this way are being nonsensical as much as the women and I'm not trying to be insensitive to the fact that some men use a woman's pasts to hurt her.

I don't have anything but contempt for men who behave that way.

I understand talking about it and trying to understand but not hurting someone with their past.


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## JustTheWife (Nov 1, 2017)

ConanHub said:


> I was definitely acknowledging that both sides were playing games. I don't really get the men or women in these situations.
> 
> Several of the women I was with seemed bothered about their past when I certainly wasn't.
> 
> ...


I agree with everything you say here, especially about all the emotional energy consumed by these issues. It's hard to just snap the fingers though and have it go away. Women get tangled up in it for many reasons including how we may have been brought up. We also get dragged into it because men are mired in it. Or we've experienced men who are mired in it. Men are mired in it because of jealousy and insecurity which can arise at any time. That's why i say it's a minefield.

Sexuality is an important part of one's life so ideally you could share it all very openly without any hesitation or "weirdness". Like talking openly about it like you would any topic or any past life experience. But because it's a "weird" topic, I think that a lot of people steer clear of it and many women just don't really mention it and guys are conditioned to believe that it "doesn't matter" so they don't bring it up either. So everyone is saying "it doesn't matter" but if it really didn't matter, people would be comfortable talking about it!


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

Back years ago there were studies that the more sexual partners a woman had, the less sexually satisfied they were with their spouse. Hate to have a spouse with mind full of prior hookups/positions that she is enjoying fantasizing about while having sex with me. I can only imaging her thinking Jimmy was better in this position or Jeff did such and such better. 

Personally i would not marry the town bicycle. I could not marry a woman that slept with my friends, or if i did we would no longer be friends. Aint gonna have a man around my wife has had sex with. 

Any one either of us has been with will be cut out of our lives. We have no friends with ex's.


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