# Had The Talk



## hurtnohio (Jul 17, 2011)

Hello all,

Yesterday, I decided to have The Talk. Took my son to a babysitter's while she was running errands. When she came home, I told her we needed to talk.

I started by asking her where we were in our marriage. She said the last year had been rough, but she thought the last 3 months had been better. I asked her why she thought that was. She said because she's made an effort to not make any demands of me at all when I'm home from trips. She said she hopes the lack of stress on me will mean things eventually get better (OK..I'll stop right here and say that raised a couple of red flags for me. First of all, if she sees herself as carrying the entire load and thinks that keeping me stress-free is the only way to save our marriage, I don't think she has a realistic view of what the real problems are. Second, it's impossible to ever have a "stress-free" life.)

I told her I wasn't happy. I essentially ran through the list of issues we've had in the past year (which I have thoroughly documented here). She told me she couldn't believe I was bringing up old arguments and that I was being "too sensitive." That's another red flag for me. 

Back in October, she refused to go back to our marriage counselor. But then in February, she did say she'd be willing to start seeing a new counselor. Our old counselor feels my wife might be "answer shopping." I told my wife that I didn't think continued MC would be productive until each of us worked on our individual issues in IC. Her answer? "I don't have any issues, and I don't see why you think I need an individual counselor." (Another red flag)

Then things got really weird. She asked me what the bottom line is: Am I seeking a divorce? I told her the truth...I had lined up a place to live for a while but I was leaning toward divorce. She said, "Well, you mind is made up, so how does this look going forward?" She then started talking about legal issues, and custody, and financials. She cried a little bit, but no huge explosions like I expected.

She then insisted that we rearrange the bedroom arrangements right away to avoid "confusing" our son. 

We went and got him, and she said to him, "We've got exciting news! Daddy has another place to sleep now and he won't be sleeping here any more. So you're going to get a big boy bed now! Isn't that exciting?" He thought it was a huge adventure, so he was cool with it.

Here's what I spent my afternoon doing....we took the twin bed (that she had been sleeping on in the master bedroom) down and moved it into his room (he's been outgrowing his baby bed anyway). Then we dismantled the queen size bed that had been my bed in the office for a year, and moved it into the master bedroom. She's already making plans to turn the office (formerly "Daddy's bedroom") into an office / study room for our son.

I stayed and ate supper with them. As I got ready to leave, she asked me to give her the keys to the van and to our household safe.

Not sure what to make of all of this. Is she trying to pull a 180 on me? Is she ready for me to be gone herself? Is this all a mind game to make me realize what I'm walking away from? Or is she relieved I left? (In all honesty, I still haven't completely decided that a divorce is the answer)

And am I reading the situation correctly? I see a lot of red flags in her responses: (1) I'm being "too sensitive" and can't "let things go." (2) Her hope that if she did all the work and left me "stress free" that things would eventually get better. (3) Her response that "I don't have any issues at all, why would I need counseling?"

Was a rough night last night in my new quarters. Didn't sleep well. Wondering if this was all a huge, monstrous mistake. 

Not sure what to think this morning. I'm tired, grumpy and sad. Already thinking about caving in and going back. Maybe I am too demanding. But I just can't get past some of the weirdness of the past year. If we can't figure out how to work on some of these things - and if she won't even acknowledge that she has any issues - I don't see how things will get any better.

Feeling very lost right now.....


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## hurtnohio (Jul 17, 2011)

....Not that I even have a bed to go back home to anyway....


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

funny how quick she was to implement the separation, guess things weren't better like she claimed


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Hurt,
Your W is not capable of loving you, the way you love her. 

I read a bunch of your old posts. You have been incredibly patient. Forget my uninformed opinion, lets recall what your therapist said very early on:
- your W is focused on and frames issues in terms of how they effect HER
- you focus on, and frame issues in terms of how they effect the family

And one other. And because your posts are so very consistent over time, it sure as heck seems that you are very honest. So I believed you when you first posted this and even more so today when I looked again: Your W demanded separate bedrooms. When she found you had slept in the "better" bed while she was visiting family she flipped out and asked "how would you feel if I let ANOTHER man sleep in our bed"? 

OK - hmmm - well - typically I am filled with suggestions for folks and have to evaluate the relative merit of various suggestions before I respond. 

In this case I prefer to ensure I anchor myself firmly in reality before proceeding. You slept in the "marriage" bed - while she way away - and she somehow compared this to the equivalent of her sleeping with another man in your "marriage" bed?

I am sure you aren't perfect. But equally certain that you are not clever enough to invent stuff like this: 
"I deliberately dropped the soap - while taking a shower at 4:30 AM - to wake up our son". 

So how come your W sees you as the "hygenic-product acoustic warrior"? And the therapist sees you as focused on the family?

I honestly do have one question for you? Seriously? 

How have you lasted this long? 





hurtnohio said:


> ....Not that I even have a bed to go back home to anyway....


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## hurtnohio (Jul 17, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> Hurt,
> And one other. And because your posts are so very consistent over time, it sure as heck seems that you are very honest. So I believed you when you first posted this and even more so today when I looked again: Your W demanded separate bedrooms. When she found you had slept in the "better" bed while she was visiting family she flipped out and asked "how would you feel if I let ANOTHER man sleep in our bed"?
> 
> ...You slept in the "marriage" bed - while she way away - and she somehow compared this to the equivalent of her sleeping with another man in your "marriage" bed?


Yes, this was a rather bizarre conversation at the time. One of the weird things is that yesterday, as we were moving things around, we had one of the most carefree, open-communications day we've had in months. Maybe years. 

I talked about how weird the whole bed thing was for me. She said that at the time, the tension between us was so intense, that she felt like she needed a place to get away from me. And I get that, because I've felt the same way about her.

Yet, I didn't talk about her tortured analogy. I mean ME sleeping on the bed where we conceived our son was the equivalent of letting some strange man sleep in MY bed? Really? But yesterday being as weird as it was already, I wasn't ready to go there.



> I am sure you aren't perfect. But equally certain that you are not clever enough to invent stuff like this:
> "I deliberately dropped the soap - while taking a shower at 4:30 AM - to wake up our son".


Far from perfect. One thing I'm learning in therapy (and from talking to friends who are also in their own therapy) is that I should have confronted this disordered behavior much sooner. If nothing else, I should have told her "I'm not OK when you come in and say, 'Are you trying to wake the baby up this early?'" But since at the time, I didn't have the skills or tools to confront what was clearly unreasonable behavior, I just withdrew into myself. I literally didn't know how to communicate in a reasonable way with someone who was being unreasonable. It's taken me a lot of therapy to realize it's OK to feel the way I feel and to communicate how I'm feeling in reaction to someone else's behavior.

Of course, it's easy to become withdrawn when one of the times I tried to make an "I feel" statement, I was met with, "Oh, boo-hoo-hoo about your precious little feelings." A little bit hard to keep trying after you get shot down like that! But I really should have kept at it. If nothing else, it might have brought things to a head sooner.

I guess I'm saying that my communication skills are far from perfect. I do own part of the problems we've had. But only part. When I did try to reach out for a long time, I feel as if I was shot down every time. Hard to keep any motivation to try when that happens.

It's weird, but she's been more open to communicating in a reasonable way this last 6 months than she's been in a long time. But then I still hit that "there's nothing wrong with me, it's all you" wall and it makes me doubt that any lasting change can come about here.



> I honestly do have one question for you? Seriously?
> 
> How have you lasted this long?


Honestly? Sheer willpower. I'm certainly not in love with her anymore. But I do believe that love is more than a feeling, so I've been trying to stick it out through sheer willpower. Mainly because I've felt it's the right thing to do. But the accusations and smear campaigns got to be too much.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Hurt,
LOL. It wasn't a tortured analogy. You are thinking like an engineer. I fully identify with the notion of a tortured analogy. Unfortunately the issue here is not one of flawed logic. 

I have enough experience with BPD folks to recognize the difference between poorly structured logic and an aggressive escalation. By the way - I accept that I can't be "certain" of another persons motives unless they openly share them with me. 

I had a very liberating realization many years ago. When someone is *repeatedly *violating my boundaries I don't really care what their "intentions are/were". And the reason for that is simple. BPD people are the best reverse engineers of behavior in the world. The foundation of BPD behavior is:
I was JUSTIFIED in doing "zyx" because "I FELT wvu". And I FELT "wvu" because YOU did/are "tsr". 

The reason this was so liberating was I realized that their primary focus is on how THEY feel. On a bad day it is their exclusive focus. Soooooo - being a practical chap I asked myself a question. 

Why would I spend my time and emotional energy talking about something *the other person does not care about*, to wit, my feelings?

Instead I moved to a simple model. Violate my boundaries, and you get the cue right away you have done so. Keep it up and you get rapidly deprioritized up to and including being completely *edited out* of my mini-world. 





hurtnohio said:


> Yes, this was a rather bizarre conversation at the time. One of the weird things is that yesterday, as we were moving things around, we had one of the most carefree, open-communications day we've had in months. Maybe years.
> 
> I talked about how weird the whole bed thing was for me. She said that at the time, the tension between us was so intense, that she felt like she needed a place to get away from me. And I get that, because I've felt the same way about her.
> 
> ...


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## LovesHerMan (Jul 28, 2011)

Hurt, my heart aches for you. Your wife's matter-of-fact reaction to the opening of your heart to her speaks volumes. She jumped right away to the practical considerations of a divorce instead of being alarmed that you would even bring this up. A loving wife would want to know what she could do to revive your marriage.

I do not see how you can effect any positive changes with such a self-centered wife. You have to decide if you want to continue to live this way, or if the pain of a divorce is worth the opportunity for you to find a woman who can love you completely in a way that you deserve.

It would be good to live apart for awhile so that you can feel certain that divorce is the right course for you.


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## lamaga (May 8, 2012)

Hurt, I'm so sorry about this. It sounds to me like she's been planning a separation in her mind for a long time.

I agree with pretty much everyone else -- you deserve a lot better than this. I wish you well.


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## mrmagoo (Feb 21, 2012)

Pardon me for butting in here and I haven't read your previous posts, but this apathetic thing seems really similar to my wife and my situation. To me, it's just plain, regular old mid life crisis. I told her a story about a woman I read about that abandoned her husband and kids, got divorced, and lived by a lake for 2 years alone in an effort to "find herself." Isn't this almost like succumbing to addiction? Or is it truly that the people afflicted with this disorder cannot stop that train of thought? Anyway, I told her the story and she didn't see one thing wrong with it. To me, the woman needed psychiatric intervention but what do I know....

I hear you hurtnohio, sheer willpower is what has been keeping me in this thing.... I find though as the months pass, my determination is waning and that troubles me. Does she need help to find her way back home(our marraige)? Or does she just need to start over with a brand new self???? All confusing but shes playing a dangerous game...


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## hurtnohio (Jul 17, 2011)

Just got off the phone from breaking the news to my 89-year old grandmother. She had an interesting piece of info...

My wife took our son to see my family over Memorial Day weekend (I was working). My grandmother told me my wife got her and my dad together and told them we were having problems. Asked them if she would still be a part of the family if we separated.

Am I the only one who thinks this was a little odd? Maybe she thought it was considerate to forewarn my family about what might be coming (I have steadfastly refused to involved my family in this mess). But it strikes me as a violation of the boundaries.


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## lamaga (May 8, 2012)

It just confirms that she has been planning this for some time.


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## hurtnohio (Jul 17, 2011)

With the benefit of distance, things are becoming so clear. She really is pathologically unhealthy. And unless she seeks help and shows measurable progress, I can never live like that again.

It's not going to be an easy road, but I cannot go back to that drama!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

> Yet, I didn't talk about her tortured analogy. I mean ME sleeping on the bed where we conceived our son was the equivalent of letting some strange man sleep in MY bed? Really? But yesterday being as weird as it was already, I wasn't ready to go there.


Is it just me, or is there a red flag waving over this?

I have noticed that, sometimes, when people say such, apparently, bizarre things, there's a basis there, if only we can find them?

Is it possible that, indeed, someone did sleep in Daddy Bear's Bed?


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## hurtnohio (Jul 17, 2011)

MattMatt said:


> Is it just me, or is there a red flag waving over this?
> 
> I have noticed that, sometimes, when people say such, apparently, bizarre things, there's a basis there, if only we can find them?
> 
> Is it possible that, indeed, someone did sleep in Daddy Bear's Bed?


I considered this, but I doubt it.

Not really sure it matters now. Seems to me like the marriage is completely dead and we're heading toward ending it. So I'm not sure it matters.

If I didn't suspect a personality disorder, it would make sense that a comment like this might mean something else. But with BPD, you never really know what you're dealing with, so it could mean anything.

I'm so sick of the drama. And relieved to be out of it!

I will not go back for more abuse. If she commits to her own therapy and shows measurable progress I ****MIGHT**** think about moving back home (if I get a bed!). But I will not move back to the situation as it stood before I left. Being gone this week has made me feel more relief than I ever thought possible. A little bit guilty, too, but mostly relief.


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## hurtnohio (Jul 17, 2011)

3leafclover said:


> It's okay to feel sad. It's normal to feel lost. That little bit of excitement you had before when only contemplating this was regarding how your life can change..._after_ the grieving period. The grief has to be gotten through first, and that's going to take some time. If you're not already familiar with them, look up the stages of the grieving process. It's the same one people go through with the death of a loved one. In this case, it's the death of the life you once hoped you'd have with your wife. You need to be familiar with the stages so you can hopefully recognize which one you're in - and trust me, you can switch between them in even the same day at first - and identify feelings and thoughts (like when you're wanting to cave in and go back) as logical ones given your situation or as products of the natural grief process.
> 
> It could very well be that your wife saw this coming and was planning for it herself. If she does have BPD traits, well... I think we often forget that that can include pushing away behaviors as well as the better-known frantic pulling-back behaviors. With your wife's history, you should be prepared for her to change her tune. Honestly, I hope she doesn't...I think it will be much easier for you this way, and I feel she could probably be extremely persuasive and manipulative and disruptive to your journey towards finding peace (aka acceptance, the last stage in the grief process).
> 
> Allow yourself to grieve. Expect your emotions to be all over the map for awhile, and refrain from hasty decision-making during this time. Also, make sure you're taking care of yourself. Be your own caretaker instead of somebody's else's. Try to get enough sleep, exercise, eat well, and do things that used to make you happy. Even if they don't make you happy right away, you'll eventually surprise yourself by realizing you are finding some joy in life still. It'll grow from there.


It's interesting. I think I've been grieving for the last 2 years. I didn't even realize it at the time, but I can identify specific periods where I hit the 5 main mileposts. 

At first, I was in denial that it was really that bad. "Maybe if we can get a little more counseling and learn some communication techniques, we can work this out...." 

I spent 6 months angry. Maybe not outwardly so, but mad at God. Why would He let me suffer like this?

I bargained.....maybe if I put up with sleeping in separate rooms, things will improve. Maybe if I let her do____, she'll like me more. Maybe if I put up with her crap, she'll appreciate me more. 

You get the idea. I think I finally came to the point of acceptance and talked to her this week. And her reaction has helped me accept that I was right all along. The marriage really was mortally wounded with little hope of recovery.

So it's sad in a way, but I've already done a lot of grieving. I'm sure there's more to come, but right now I only feel one emotion....RELIEF.


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## LovesHerMan (Jul 28, 2011)

I am so sorry that you are going through this, but it is good that you have finally come to a resolution so that you can have some peace. We all deserve to have a loving spouse who meets our needs.


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