# Religious Men and the Divorce Dilemma



## FriendlySkeptic (May 16, 2014)

I try to stay on the positive side of things in life. Interestingly, there have been many posts about men who can't keep their wives or their wives want a divorce. The usual reasons. 

But I want to know whether the culprit is secularism? Seems to me that whatever religion you belong to, it has the answers on how to stay together and yet no one follows them. So maybe that is causing the divorce rate to skyrocket?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

There are probably a lot of reasons the divorce rate has gotten so high in the last 40 years or so. My sister and brother-in-law, pretty devout Catholics, divorced 15 years ago after 20 years of marriage. 

I talked to their daughter once about the divorce. I told her I thought if both of them had taken an attitude of humility, if they had both said, "I haven't been what you have needed in this marriage, and I am sorry. I want to change. How can I be what you need?" they could have salvaged it. My niece agreed.

Instead, my sister and her husband were constantly complaining about the other. Nothing was ever their fault; it was always the fault of the other.

Some marriages will fail. But I think an attitude of humility and a genuine desire to serve one another would go a long way to preventing divorce.


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## FriendlySkeptic (May 16, 2014)

jld,

What you say makes sense. There is too much of an entitlement culture of me me me. Nobody wants to own up to their mistakes. 

I think pop culture has something to do with it. Who knows.


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## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

FriendlySkeptic said:


> I try to stay on the positive side of things in life. Interestingly, there have been many posts about men who can't keep their wives or their wives want a divorce. The usual reasons.
> 
> But I want to know whether the culprit is secularism? Seems to me that whatever religion you belong to, it has the answers on how to stay together and yet no one follows them. So maybe that is causing the divorce rate to skyrocket?


I do not think secularism has anything to do with it. The only reason most people went to church in the past was because of peer pressure. Very few people are truly religious. It is more a social club.

People divorce more today because it is acceptable. You are not going to be chastised by your neighbors because you are divorced unlike 100 years ago.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

FriendlySkeptic said:


> jld,
> 
> What you say makes sense. There is too much of an entitlement culture of me me me. Nobody wants to own up to their mistakes.
> 
> I think pop culture has something to do with it. Who knows.


I think it is all the money available now. In the past, people were forced to work together. Now people have a lot more money, and a lot more freedom. 

So often on TAM, I hear people say, Well, I may have done x,y,z, but my partner did a,b,c,d,e,f,g. The buck doesn't stop with them, you know? 

I know that marriage takes two, but the person posting here is usually the only one we have to work with. And a sincere desire to listen goes a long way.


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## xakulax (Feb 9, 2014)

The primary reason why the divorce rate is so high is because people are NOT settling for dysfunctional marriages anymore


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

xakulax said:


> The primary reason why the divorce rate is so high is because people are settling for dysfunctional marriages anymore


You mean *not* settling?


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## xakulax (Feb 9, 2014)

jld said:


> You mean *not* settling?



Yes of course


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

xakulax said:


> The primary reason why the divorce rate is so high is because people are NOT settling for dysfunctional marriages anymore


*I firmly believe that in this day and age, that far too many people self-servingly place their own personal pleasures and desires far over that of their spouses and their families! Plain and simple!*


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## xakulax (Feb 9, 2014)

arbitrator said:


> *I firmly believe that in this day and age, that far too many people self-servingly place their own personal pleasures and desires far over that of their spouses and their families! Plain and simple!*



Which is true but I think the real question here is what caused the divorce what lead to the relationship breaking down was it because the couple was self-serving place their own needs ahead of there partners poor communication or was it infidelity there are simply too many variables to say that religious beliefs makes a difference.


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## Adeline (Jan 24, 2014)

Is there statistical evidence that religion makes a difference in divorce? I suppose I could go googling around, but was wondering if more learned people knew of it off the top of their heads. I grew up in a pretty conservative non-Catholic Christian setting, and yet I still saw divorce happen within our church, and my mother's parents had been divorced looooooong ago when it wasn't "common." And my grandmother was a devout Christian. I knew Mormons whose parents had divorced (when there are more "consequences" in the spiritual realm of things for divorce) and I've just never seen a difference either way. Seems to me that it's more about your personal morals and ethics in how you feel about giving up when the going gets tough, or fighting for the person you love. And that goes outside of the boundaries of religion vs nonreligion. Also "putting up" with a bad marriage or partner is something I've seen both in religious settings and non religious settings. So I guess my conclusion would be is that it doesn't seem to make anything foolproof.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Adeline, I think I have read that Christian evangelicals divorce at the same rate as non-evangelicals. I don't know for other denominations, or other religions.


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## xakulax (Feb 9, 2014)

Denomination (in order of decreasing divorce rate) % who have been divorced

Non-denominational **	34%
Baptists 29%
Mainline Protestants	25%
Mormons 24%
Catholics 21%
Lutherans 21%



Divorce rates among conservative Christians were significantly higher than for other faith groups, and much higher than Atheists and Agnostics experience.


U.S. divorce rates: for various faith groups, age groups and geographical areas


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Wow, interesting stats, xak. I am surprised to see it is so low for Catholics. Pleased, but surprised.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Christian Divorce Rate
Marriage in the United States A majority of people get married at some point in their life within the United States. Marriage is still the cultural norm within the United States, and four out of every five adults will get married at some point in their life. Marriage is often a spiritual choice for a majority of couples, but marriage is often an economic choice as well. medianet_width='336'; medianet_height= '280'; medianet_crid='972249013'; On the opposite side, divorce has become a cultural norm within the Baby Boomer generation and generations since. Among the people who have chosen marriage, one third (33%) of those have undergone at least one divorce. As always, the percentage of divorce rates varies according to anything from ethnicity and - See more at: Christian Divorce Rate

religion to political stances. For example, some of the following statistics apply to different types of people: Downscale Adults- 39% percent of this group has undergone a divorce at least once Baby Boomers- 38% of this generation have faced at least one divorce African Americans- 36% of African Americans have faced at least one divorce Caucasian Americans- 32% will face divorce at least once Hispanic Americans- 31% of this ethnic group will face divorce at least once Asian Americans- Only 20% of this ethnic group have been faced with divorce in the United States Liberals- Of those who consider themselves liberal on the political scale, 37% have faced divorce at least once in their lifetime Conservatives- Of those who consider themselves conservative, only 28% have undergone divorce in the United States Christian Divorce Rate Now that you’ve read some statistics on general divorce rates within the United States, it’s also important to note Christian divorce rates as well as Non-Christian divorce rates. As for Non-Christians, 38% of this group will face divorce at least once within the United States. The divorce rate for atheists and agnostics is only at 30%, however, this percentage is often considered flawed. People of these religions often have higher rates of cohabitation and lower rates of actual marriage. Oppositely, and as you might imagine, Christian divorce rates are lower than the national average, and some Christian sects have dramatically lower rates than the national average. The chart below describes Christian divorce rates for different types of Christianity: 

1) Evangelical Christians- 26% of these Christians will face divorce at least once in their lifetime 

2) Non-Evangelical Born Again Christians- 33% of these Christians will face divorce at least once 

3) Notional Christians- 33% will face divorce at least once 

4) All Born Again Christians- 32% will face divorce at least once 

5) All Non-Born Again Christians- 33% will face divorce at least once 

6) Protestant Christians- 34% of these Christians will face at least one divorce in their lifetime 7) Catholics- 28% will face divorce at least once As you can see, Christian divorce rates are still fairly low within the United States. Additionally, the national average for divorce has actually gone down in the last years because many younger people are living together before marriage and getting married at an older age. - See more at: Christian Divorce Rate

Here is a number that the article leaves out:

Jewish couples 97% less likely


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## xakulax (Feb 9, 2014)

The highest divorce rates in the U.S. are in the Bible Belt: "Tennessee, Arkansas, Alabama and Oklahoma round out the Top Five in frequency of divorce.


Studied divorce rates in America in 1999 have found surprising evidence that divorce is far lower among atheists than among conservative Christians.



PS: please note this is not my views merely the data that is available


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## Adeline (Jan 24, 2014)

Why do you think that is? One would almost think (or at least those in the religion would perceive) that divorce rates "should" be lower amongst those who identify as Christian etc than those that don't. Of course we know that morality can be exclusive from religion, but why does it seem like religion almost seems to hurt marriage? Is it the pressures of needing to look upright to others at your church, and therefore you might ignore some of the bigger problems? The encouragement of submission? I wonder. I also wonder if attendance to church makes a difference either way. You know, how some people are super involved in their churches and go to service plus sunday school plus small groups plus bible study plus fundraisers etc. And then some don't go to church as often. I don't know, maybe that deviates too much from the OP, but I kind of find this fascinating! haha


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## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

Adeline said:


> Why do you think that is? One would almost think (or at least those in the religion would perceive) that divorce rates "should" be lower amongst those who identify as Christian etc than those that don't. Of course we know that morality can be exclusive from religion, but why does it seem like religion almost seems to hurt marriage? Is it the pressures of needing to look upright to others at your church, and therefore you might ignore some of the bigger problems? The encouragement of submission? I wonder. I also wonder if attendance to church makes a difference either way. You know, how some people are super involved in their churches and go to service plus sunday school plus small groups plus bible study plus fundraisers etc. And then some don't go to church as often. I don't know, maybe that deviates too much from the OP, but I kind of find this fascinating! haha


As a born again christian, you have accepted Jesus as you Savior. So why worry if you divorce, you will still go to heaven!

Being raised Catholic, it is a concept I have never understood!


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Adeline said:


> Why do you think that is? One would almost think (or at least those in the religion would perceive) that divorce rates "should" be lower amongst those who identify as Christian etc than those that don't. Of course we know that morality can be exclusive from religion, but why does it seem like religion almost seems to hurt marriage? Is it the pressures of needing to look upright to others at your church, and therefore you might ignore some of the bigger problems? The encouragement of submission? I wonder. I also wonder if attendance to church makes a difference either way. You know, how some people are super involved in their churches and go to service plus sunday school plus small groups plus bible study plus fundraisers etc. And then some don't go to church as often. I don't know, maybe that deviates too much from the OP, but I kind of find this fascinating! haha


Christian's cannot be all lumped into one group. There is such a profound difference between the beliefs and practices of the different Christian denominations that it really make little sense to lump them all together.


There's some numbers that how profound the differences are. The more orthodox a Christian denomination is, the lower their divorce rate.


Barna report: Variation in divorce rates among Christian faith groups:

Denomination (in order of 
decreasing divorce rate)....................% who have been divorced
Non-denominational **.....................34%
Baptists...........................................29%
Mainline Protestants..........................25%
Mormons.........................................24%
Catholics.........................................21%
Lutherans.......................................21%

Variation in divorce rates by religion:
Religion.........................................% have been divorced
Jews.............................................30%
Born-again Christians......................27%
Other Christians.............................24%
Atheists, Agnostics.........................21%

** Barna uses the term "non-denominational" to refer to Evangelical Christian congregations that are not affiliated with a specific denomination. The vast majority are fundamentalist in their theological beliefs.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Duguesclin said:


> As a born again christian, you have accepted Jesus as you Savior. So why worry if you divorce, you will still go to heaven!
> 
> Being raised Catholic, it is a concept I have never understood!


Yep, don't get it either.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Correlation does not equal causation. The stat about divorce in the bible belt is undeniably true, and so is the stat about atheists. Religion, or lack thereof does not cause those stats, in my opinion. What else could be at work here? Start with quality of education. As quality of education increases, so does the likelihood of atheism, but also an increase in the likelihood of financial security. Lack of quality education brings a greater likelihood of poverty, stress, and all the ills that entails. Which of those sounds like a healthier place for a marriage?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Fozzy said:


> Correlation does not equal causation. The stat about divorce in the bible belt is undeniably true, and so is the stat about atheists. Religion, or lack thereof does not cause those stats, in my opinion. What else could be at work here? Start with quality of education. As quality of education increases, so does the likelihood of atheism, but also an increase in the likelihood of financial security. Lack of quality education brings a greater likelihood of poverty, stress, and all the ills that entails. Which of those sounds like a healthier place for a marriage?


You bring up some very good points.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

xakulax said:


> The highest divorce rates in the U.S. are in the Bible Belt: "Tennessee, Arkansas, Alabama and Oklahoma round out the Top Five in frequency of divorce.
> 
> Studied divorce rates in America in 1999 have found surprising evidence that divorce is far lower among atheists than among conservative Christians.


That's hardly surprising, from my perspective it's the most likely outcome.



Adeline said:


> Why do you think that is? One would almost think (or at least those in the religion would perceive) that divorce rates "should" be lower amongst those who identify as Christian etc than those that don't. Of course we know that morality can be exclusive from religion, but why does it seem like religion almost seems to hurt marriage? Is it the pressures of needing to look upright to others at your church, and therefore you might ignore some of the bigger problems? The encouragement of submission? I wonder.


Why would religious divorce rates be lower?

Over time all marriages encounter challenges. Religious ones unfortunately face the additional challenge of having participants who often burden themselves with trying to meet the expectations of their faith.



Fozzy said:


> Correlation does not equal causation. The stat about divorce in the bible belt is undeniably true, and so is the stat about atheists. Religion, or lack thereof does not cause those stats, in my opinion. What else could be at work here? Start with quality of education. As quality of education increases, so does the likelihood of atheism, but also an increase in the likelihood of financial security. Lack of quality education brings a greater likelihood of poverty, stress, and all the ills that entails. Which of those sounds like a healthier place for a marriage?


As an atheist married (15 years) to a highly educated agnostic who leans heavily towards atheism. I can say so far we have mutually enjoyed a highly sexed, intellectually stimulating and happy partnership for almost 18 years.

Having said that, I can also say we have had some ups and downs along the way. Those ups and downs have seen significant injury and illness along the way (we're all good now, my wife was especially wonderful while I and our 6 month old son were in hospital), time apart in our early days due to my employment at the time, and even a period of significant financial stress.

Fortunately for us though, we didn't need to save ourselves for marriage or worry about corrupting ourselves or going blind or idealising marriage or sex as some extraordinarily sacred partnership or activity. We're both on the same page, sex is just sex in our partnership, it's a fun and awesome activity that we lusciously enjoy together, incidentally it also helps to keep us connected to each other. We're not trying to be people we are not, we simply accept each other as we are.

I think it's probably easier for atheists to stay together simply because they are less inclined to see a marriage as a sacred experience. Therefore they are more likely to have less idealistic expectations of what a marriage will be. Likewise they feel no compulsion to have their marriage conform to a religious ideal and are more inclined to ignore outside pressure to have their relationship conform to that ideal.

In closing I will add, that I think it's terrific some couples (believers or otherwise) have great marriages.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> Christian's cannot be all lumped into one group. There is such a profound difference between the beliefs and practices of the different Christian denominations that it really make little sense to lump them all together.
> 
> 
> *There's some numbers that how profound the differences are. The more orthodox a Christian denomination is, the lower their divorce rate.*
> ...


These are some interesting stats.

Why do you suppose the divorce rate is so low in Orthodox Religions?


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

Fozzy said:


> Correlation does not equal causation. The stat about divorce in the bible belt is undeniably true, and so is the stat about atheists. Religion, or lack thereof does not cause those stats, in my opinion. What else could be at work here? Start with quality of education. As quality of education increases, so does the likelihood of atheism, but also an increase in the likelihood of financial security. Lack of quality education brings a greater likelihood of poverty, stress, and all the ills that entails. Which of those sounds like a healthier place for a marriage?


The reason for the diff in divorce rates is the much higher rate of marriage for Christians at 86% vs. Atheists at only 64%. If you don't try, there is no possibility of failure.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> These are some interesting stats.
> 
> Why do you suppose the divorce rate is so low in Orthodox Religions?


The women's movement originated in the Northeastern denominations in the 1840s, so much of American protestant Christianity is infected with it and its teachings permitting women to divorce for a myriad of pseudo-sins. Orthodox only permits divorce in cases of adultery and desertion. This article makes the claim that Orthodox divorce is undercounted, but Barna is probably using polling rather than ecclesiastical records, I would think.


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## Nikita2270 (Mar 22, 2014)

> The women's movement originated in the Northeastern denominations in the 1840s, so much of American protestant Christianity is infected with it and its teachings permitting women to divorce for a myriad of pseudo-sins.


lol...take some history classes.

Most of the world's earliest belief systems worshipped "The Mother" and celebrated women and birth. This lasted for a very long time. The highest members of religion weren't necessarily men...they were often priestesses or female seers or alchemists.

Christianity, which is actually a bad rip-off of older belief systems, sought to reduce the power of women. Modern North Americans furthered this movement by seeking to decimate women as healers or midwives by labelling women mixing tonics as witches.

So the "women's movement" has existed forever...it was simply stifled by the violence of Christianity.

Most mainstream modern day religions still seek to subjugate and stifle women.



> ... its teachings permitting women to divorce for a myriad of pseudo-sins.


I always find men that say these types of things highly amusing.

I doubt many women would classify the reasons they left their marriages as pseudo-sins.

Women are becoming more and more independent and as a result, if men want them to stay around in marriages now, they can't just marry them and claim that they are chattel. They actually have to meet some standards and criteria.

And while that may seem horrific to a certain class of men...I think its great that women have the choice to leave crappy marriages and crappy husbands.

No decent guy would be threatened by that.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

Nikita2270 said:


> lol...take some history classes.
> 
> Most of the world's earliest belief systems worshipped "The Mother" and celebrated women and birth. \


Sorry, but that has nothing whatsoever do to with the modern-socio political movement that began with the Seneca Falls conference and its influence on current divorce rates among religious people.

Although, i do admire your...um...genius...shall we say, in making the connection.


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## spacemanSpiff (May 19, 2014)

As a Christian man with a Christian wife having an emotional with a "friend" that I went to Bible Study with, I see way too much people bestowing "cheap grace" on themselves and doing whatever they feel like assured of forgiveness. Their God is basically Barney the dinosaur. I imagine this is a more of a Protestant phenomenon with the emphasis on grace through faith. 

My $.02 worth


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

I have no interest in being married to someone that stays married to me only because their religion tells them they have to, and I think people that use religion to hold onto a spouse that doesn't want them are very sad.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

I'll bet there are stats supporting the idea that when the "no-fault" divorce was instituted, then the divorce rate rose.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

If one is religious of the Christian variety, then they know that marriage was a gift from God and a model of his relationship with the church. If you were Satan and you were at war with God, wouldn't you attack marriage? The Bible told us things were going to get very bad before Christ returned. 

"And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold." Matt 24:12


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

michzz said:


> I'll bet there are stats supporting the idea that when the "no-fault" divorce was instituted, then the divorce rate rose.


Somehow, it seems you can support almost anything with stats, if you ask the right questions. I like them, but I'm not convinced when I see them, like I used to be.


"And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold." Matt 24:12

I do believe this---^


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

unbelievable said:


> If one is religious of the Christian variety, then they know that marriage was a gift from God and a model of his relationship with the church. If you were Satan and you were at war with God, wouldn't you attack marriage? The Bible told us things were going to get very bad before Christ returned.
> 
> "And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold." Matt 24:12


Okay.


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## Thound (Jan 20, 2013)

Satan!!!


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

lifeistooshort said:


> I have no interest in being married to someone that stays married to me only because their religion tells them they have to, and I think people that use religion to hold onto a spouse that doesn't want them are very sad.


I agree this that's the only reason they are staying.

However, sometimes it's the belief that encourages a person to do the hard lifting that is needed to fix problems, work through them and get to a good place.

I don't think it is accurate to assume that religious people just stay in miserable marriages because of their beliefs. The idea is to fix the marriage.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

My oldest sister stayed married because of her religion. Her husband would have affairs, and she would blame the other woman, every time. BIL and she would say a prayer together, and poof! all was forgiven.

I think my sister was scared to end up alone. I am not saying she does not really believe in her religion, too, but I think that fear of being alone was a big part of it.

I think she was motivated by money, too. She and he worked full-time nearly all their lives, and have a good retirement income. I don't think she wanted to lose that, either.

I think she lies to herself about so many things. It's almost like she has an alternate reality.


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

Humans are interesting, sometimes we know what is right to do, but we do the opposite. Our heart is treacherous. 

Religious people have lots of standards, some of them could be self-righteous, if you don't live your life according to their way, they might be upset with you and nag you, and that can cause a lot of stress for the spouses. Since a lot of people have the freedom and capability to leave, they choose not to put up with it and take the easy way out. 

People like the thrill of pursuing and being pursued. But for a couple, the passionate stage only lasts for about two or three years, after the passionate stage is over, we start to deal with our mundane daily life. Some people become tired of the same routine and boredom, and they lack self-control and compassion, they seek excitement elsewhere by pursuing others or being pursued, and all of these lead to divorce. Little do people know that simple life might be boring, but it is peaceful. Adventurous life might be exciting, but it also brings heartache and disaster. ( I am talking about marital affairs here)

Our ancestors would have had a high divorce rate too if they had what we have now, financial capabilities and freedom of choice. Was their life better? I absolutely don't want to be a woman in the past. Is our life better? Obviously not. All the statistics show that our generation isn't happier than our ancestors even though they had all the wars, famines, and poor medical facilities. 

I believe that we need moral education to help us shape a pleasant personality and cultivate compassion for others. Then we are more considerate of others and we make other people happy.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

greenpearl said:


> I believe that we need moral education to help us shape a pleasant personality and cultivate compassion for others. Then we are more considerate of others and we make other people happy.


That's an interesting idea, a moral education. I think we mainly need to be raised by kind, considerate, moral people. We learn what we live with, and we learn to seek it out in the world.


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

jld said:


> That's an interesting idea, a moral education. I think we mainly need to be raised by kind, considerate, moral people. We learn what we live with, and we learn to seek it out in the world.


If we had parents who are kind and considerate people with high moral standards, then we are lucky. But a lot of us don't have this kind of luck. 

So that's why I think after we are mature enough, we need to seek this education somewhere else. Self-studying, going to a religious group, whatever helps.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

greenpearl said:


> If we had parents who are kind and considerate people with high moral standards, then we are lucky. But a lot of us don't have this kind of luck.
> 
> So that's why I think after we are mature enough, we need to seek this education somewhere else. Self-studying, going to a religious group, whatever helps.


I'm sure most of us would have appreciated a better start in life.  We take what we got, and build on it. Ideally, we choose a kind, compassionate spouse, and kind, compassionate friends, too.

I think some things have to be experienced rather than just read about. JMO.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

jld said:


> My oldest sister stayed married because of her religion. Her husband would have affairs, and she would blame the other woman, every time. BIL and she would say a prayer together, and poof! all was forgiven.
> 
> I think my sister was scared to end up alone. I am not saying she does not really believe in her religion, too, but I think that fear of being alone was a big part of it.
> 
> ...



I think in a case like this it's better to be honest about the fact that she doesn't want to give up what they've worked for, which in my view is perfectly valid, instead of hiding beyond religion. I suppose it makes people less judged if they use religion rather than owning the fact that they've just got too much invested.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

lifeistooshort said:


> I think in a case like this it's better to be honest about the fact that she doesn't want to give up what they've worked for, which in my view is perfectly valid, instead of hiding beyond religion. I suppose it makes people less judged if they use religion rather than owning the fact that they've just got too much invested.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


For sure she has a lot invested, but she's pretty darn invested in that religion, too.

You could be right, though, that the money is even more important to her than the religion, if it came right down to it.


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