# Red Flags



## Pal (Dec 19, 2011)

I have been married for many years and love my wife and know that she loves me. Although I do not believe that my wife has cheated on me (no evidence or reason to believe that she has) we have issues that we are working on that give me cause for concern. In reading from various sources including this site, I have discovered that my wife is displaying a number of red flags. Below is a summary.

1) The “I love you but I am not in love with you” factor. I have read in multiple places that if a spouse volunteers to tell you this, it usually means that they have either already cheated or are planning to cheat. Prior to them telling you this they are thinking it but do not volunteer to tell you this because they do not want to endanger the marriage; this is where my wife is at. I know this because when I figured this out (long explanation) and directly asked her to answer, she reluctantly admitted it to me that she loved me but was not in love with me.

2) She has reinvented history and blame shifted such that she has deep resentment toward me that I just learned about. Small things that I have done wrong in the distant past are blown out of proportion and have been the source of much secret resentment. It often does not make sense, so logic need not apply. These are things that she kept to herself and never told me about until she recently said them to me.

3) She has told me that sex with me is not important to her. She rarely initiates sex with me and when we do have sex it will be with very little enthusiasm. She has many excuses for this often claiming that she has a physical or mental issue unrelated to me, but since she is able to regularly O while masturbating, I know that everything is working fine and that she is just not that into me (see resentment above).

4) She does not seek out or appreciate non-intercourse physical intimacy with me. When we kiss she does not kiss back unless I reminder her to. She will not try to touch me on her own when I am near her. When I look around at other loving couples I notice that many of these couples have favorite ways of touching each other that they do for the pure joy of doing it, she does not have any such things with me and often finds my need to touch her “boring” or “annoying”. 

5) The “not with me” factor in group situations. Alerted by an article that discussed this, I pulled out photos that showed me and my spouse posing with desirable people of the opposite sex (remember that for women it is not just looks), and looked to see who she was usually leaning into and grouping with me or the other person of the opposite sex. I was surprised to see that it was rarely me and that looking at these pictures you would not know that we were even a couple.

6) My wife is very attractive and is secretive with me about getting attention from the opposite sex. For example, although she claims to remember little about such encounters when talking to me, when talking to others separate from me she is readily able to remember details that she did not share with me. Also, although she often gives me a 20 minute recap of a 1 hour lunch with a friend or family member (even if I do not ask her to, LOL), she only gives me a 60 second recap of a 4 hour party attended by single men in our age group but not me; if I ask for more information she claims not to remember more and gets immediately defensive and angry.

Knowing the above, how concerned should I be? Any advice?


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

your gut already knows the truth.


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## hamati (Dec 6, 2011)

You should be extremely concerned. It is only a matter of time before she leaves. Stop being a doormat. Stbxw showed only the blame shifting and secretiveness. I should have filed for divorce right then. She left me 6 weeks ago, filed for divorce and is dating her high school sweetheart. Don't make the same mistake I did. Take action now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## accept (Dec 1, 2011)

This is the normal pattern. No logic, no sex, minor things become massive. old things never forgotten. What kind of advice do you really want. How to get her back. We would have to know a lot more about you like do you have kids, can she afford to go, when and if possible why this started. Does she work. Even then its not easy at all.
Looking at it perhaps from her side. Maybe she doesnt like it that youre so jealous. She also feels that you dont really trust her. A woman doesnt like that and it can have this effect. I would suggest you stop asking her about what goes on when she is with other men and somehow tell her that you wont ask her and that you trust her.


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## Pal (Dec 19, 2011)

accept said:


> This is the normal pattern. No logic, no sex, minor things become massive. old things never forgotten. What kind of advice do you really want. How to get her back. We would have to know a lot more about you like do you have kids, can she afford to go, when and if possible why this started. Does she work. Even then its not easy at all.
> Looking at it perhaps from her side. Maybe she doesnt like it that youre so jealous. She also feels that you dont really trust her. A woman doesnt like that and it can have this effect. I would suggest you stop asking her about what goes on when she is with other men and somehow tell her that you wont ask her and that you trust her.


What do you mean by "This is the normal pattern"? Normal pattern for what?

What I am trying to do is make my marraige better but I am concerned with the issues that I discussed. She loves me and has not ever expressed a desire to leave. Rather than wait for a potential affair to happen first, I am working on my marraige now. As for your comment that I am too jealous, I am confused as to what to do when I have these red flags.


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## accept (Dec 1, 2011)

I also said that we need more information. If she doesnt want sex with you then it doesnt mean she loves you at least not in the man/wife sense. Many posters here have quite a lot of experience in this and the more information you provide the more help you will get.


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## YinPrincess (Jul 31, 2011)

Sounds like she's already emotionally detached and that will take a lot of work from both of you to reconnect, and you both have to want it.

What is it exactly she's been resenting you for??
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Pal (Dec 19, 2011)

@ accept and YinPrincess a little background information. 

We recently became empty nesters which was why we began to talk about our marriage again as it entered a new stage. We both openly consider each other best friends and love to spend our free time with each other. We text each other throughout the day, we always answers each others phone calls or call right back when the other calls. We could easily be accused of having an EA with each other were we not married. She has been all in on working on our marriage and we both look forward to our weekly date nights where we are not allowed to talk about work or children.

As for the resentment issues, they are built around the fact that I have always been a hard worker and a great provider. My financial success has meant that after the first year of marriage, she has not had to work outside of our home, even though she always had that option if that was what she wanted. Although she loved being a stay at home mom (she is a great mom), unknown to me she has resented what she perceived to be a shift in the power of the couple over to me. As a smart, well educated, beautiful and popular woman, this was not what she expected. One of her issues of resentment toward me (only recently learned) is that I did so well financially that she always felt that she could not contribute anywhere near at my level had she chosen to work outside the home. In other words I was too successful financially for her to have a fair chance at competing. She likes the money but wishes she had made some of it for us.

Another resentment issue is based on this perceived shift of power. She began to feel that sex was all about me and meeting my needs and that what she wanted did not matter. This is where the reinventing of history has taken place. Her few examples of me being selfish in this way all come from early in our marriage, and in my mind are far out weighted by the many more examples of me trying to please her that she has acknowledges have occurred throughout the marriage. Although she acknowledges this, she says that the shift in real power made her not feel that her needs were important to me.

The above and other similar resentment issues have caught me by surprise. Her level of anger about it also surprises me. From my point of view, I work long hours to make money for the family, usually come straight home, spend most of my free time with her and the children, have never cheated, have been a good father, do not have a drinking or drug problem, do not have a weight problem, and have dropped everything and been there for her when she was ill. I am not saying that I am perfect, but as a human with flaws I have been a pretty good husband.


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## ManDup (Apr 22, 2011)

Yes, huge red flags, she is definitely not on the same page with you as much as you might think. She may be faking it still to keep up appearances. When she starts to bring up early experiences with you, maybe she's thinking about how different it is from the early experiences she is how having with someone else who is undoubtedly more alpha. Rationalization is a powerful tool.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

Can I ask how long this has been going on and how old she is? Those are certainly red flags, but sometimes a red flag is just that and not a harbinger of disaster. Where I'm going is based on 1. the fact that you are empty nesters (age), 2, the fact that you say you could be accused of having an EA with each other, and 3, the nature of her complaints about you I wonder if it's not related to hormonal changes in her. I'm probably going to get flamed into oblivion by the women here for that, but I watched my mother go completely nuts when she went through menopause. I mean she would storm around the house and be so mad that we would all hide. When anyone asked her what she was so upset about she couldn't even put together a coherent sentence. 

Just a thought.


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## accept (Dec 1, 2011)

You seem to be able to afford it why havent you done counselling. Your wife sounds like she is clever so I doubt if you will find out anything. You havent answered if she can afford to leave. Also is she happy the way things are at the moment. I gather she is. She resents you and this is her way of punishing you. You seem to understand exactly what is going on. She says your selfish, that sounds like she definitely is and thats her way of excuse. Will go on later.

I think she is just punishing you


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

First you need proof or non-proof in order to rule it out. So dig. 
Get a copy of her call log/phone records. Has she been talking to any man in particular that concerns you?


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## jayde (Jun 17, 2011)

Print out your posts and talk with her about this. Tell her you are concerned about the future of your marriage and want to work on things to make it better. Her actions are indicating she wants out and tell her this. Find out from her if she feels the same way about fixing it and what she is prepared to do to fix it with you. I don't think you can fix your marraige on your own.

Do not be afraid if she doesn't want to work on the marriage or wants to end it. This is hard. Being sad about it is one thing, being afraid of it will not help. Please don't be deveived that you can change things and 'trick' her into doing a turn around without being upfront.

If she's 'only' thinking about ending it, perhaps this conversation will snap her back toward the marriage. If she's made up her mind already, this will force the issue either towards fixing it or ending it quicker (ending it is not desireable, but not dragging it out would benefit you both). Good luck.


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

sigma1299 said:


> Can I ask how long this has been going on and how old she is? Those are certainly red flags, but sometimes a red flag is just that and not a harbinger of disaster. Where I'm going is based on 1. the fact that you are empty nesters (age), 2, the fact that you say you could be accused of having an EA with each other, and 3, the nature of her complaints about you I wonder if it's not related to hormonal changes in her. * I'm probably going to get flamed into oblivion by the women here for that, but I watched my mother go completely nuts when she went through menopause. I mean she would storm around the house and be so mad that we would all hide. When anyone asked her what she was so upset about she couldn't even put together a coherent sentence. *
> Just a thought.



:rofl:

This made me laugh so hard I had to get up and leave my computer for a few minutes...it's a fact of life for women! I think I'm starting it, too...well, obviously today is a good day, but I think you may have nailed part of the OPs problem!


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

I didn't help that it was me, my brother and my father and that when she'd try to explain and couldn't express it we would all laugh. She seriously couldn't put together a sentence - it was one of the damnedest things I've ever seen. I now live in fear of the day my wife goes through it.


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## accept (Dec 1, 2011)

i have come to the conclusion that she is out to punish you or bring you down a peg. Nothing you say or do will help. Most likely you do not appreciate what she considers her successes or good points and belittle them.


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## SunnyT (Jun 22, 2011)

It's not unusual at midlife, especially as an empty-nester, to review your life... what is good, what is not so good, what is missing.... all of it. You wonder about your value, you wonder (especially as a SAHM) about the "shoulda, woulda, coulda's" and you have no idea where it all leads. 

It's probably easier to say "INILWY" when you don't even love yourself. 

I vote that without any other evidence, that it may be midlife confusion... which may or may not lead to crisis. We ALL face midlife transitions, some of us do it with confusion, fear, whatever... some of us really suck at it and it becomes a crisis for self or spouse or both. 

Advice? Well, as long as she is speaking about her problems.... then just ask "What can I do to help you?" And KNOW that the answer is probably "nothing" or "be patient". Some advise to "put your marriage on a shelf" and each work on yourself, keeping the other in sight.... and agree on this if possible. Kind of like that old adage, "If you love something set it free..." Only not literally, offer to give her space, encourage her to figure out what she needs, be a cheerleader... and definitely keep up the date nite! 

Good Luck!


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## Enginerd (May 24, 2011)

In case you didn't know the red flags you listed are basically a script for cheaters and walk away spouses. If you hang out here long enough you'll begin to see the same pattern where women get bored with men that are too predictable and easy. Additionally, her purpose is gone (children) and now she's searching for something to make her feel alive and relevant. She talked about a power shift which indicates she feels that being your wife is not enough. You have to let her work it out because she will resent any type of pressure from you. After all, your the reason she feels powerless. Tell her you love her, trust her and set her free to do whatever she needs to do. Be a rock (fake it if you have to) and act like its no big deal. In my opinion there is no other way to get her to willingly come back to you emotionally speaking. Its time to mix it up brother. I did it and it works if your honest about everything.


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## Obi Kenobi (Dec 20, 2011)

Enginerd said:


> In case you didn't know the red flags you listed are basically a script for cheaters and walk away spouses.


It's funny, I was just saying these very words when I was reading the original post. It is just a matter of time before she walks out the door. it doesn't matter what you do, you can't win. When they get to this point, they already have their minds made up. Now she is looking for the strength to just walk out the door without all of the mental guilt.

Prepare for the worst and hope for the best.


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## Pal (Dec 19, 2011)

Thank you all for your input. Although I do not agree with everything said, it was all useful.

@ManDup: The comment about “experiences” that my wife is now "having with someone else who is undoubtedly more alpha” is off base for two reasons. First, there is no evidence at this point that there is a OM. Second, it is unlikely that my wife would be seeking someone more alpha than me since one of her points of resentment is that I am too alpha. She complains that I am too confident and too expecting of people to do what I say, and that I need to learn to turn off “boss mode” when I get home; I see my wife’s point on this and am sincerely working on it.

@sigma1299 and CandieGirl: The menopause issue is a legitimate point that I need to discuss with my wife.

@accept: We have considered counseling but consider it a last resort since everyone of our friends that went to MC have ended up divorcing. This is apparently not unusual since national data shows that the success rate of MC is very low if you consider divorce a failure (which they do not btw). As for your conclusion that “she is out to punish” me, when I think about it, it rings true.

@Jellybeans: I will not spy but I will be paying attention. One thing that we have both recently agreed to is 100% transparency, where we both agree that there is no such thing as privacy among spouses when it comes to cell phones, text messages, emails, FB, etc. We have agreed to always give out all user names and passwords and to break this means that you intend to do something wrong. She was surprisingly happy to do this, and revealed her own fears about me making a mistake since I have so much opportunity to do so at work. 

@jayde: I like your idea of reading my original post to my wife. I intend to do it soon.

@SunnyT: Your "shoulda, woulda, coulda's" comment of a SAHM coupled with “It's probably easier to say "INILWY" when you don't even love yourself”, really fits my wife and encourages me to agree with your “vote that without any other evidence, that it may be midlife confusion.”

@Lon, hamati, Enginerd and Obi Kenobi: I have to agree that my original post does sound like the early script of a cheater which I guess is why I knew they were red flags. My hope is that by seeing this and acting early, I can change the outcome of the story.


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## accept (Dec 1, 2011)

*@accept: We have considered counseling but consider it a last resort since everyone of our friends that went to MC have ended up divorcing. This is apparently not unusual since national data shows that the success rate of MC is very low if you consider divorce a failure (which they do not btw). As for your conclusion that “she is out to punish” me, when I think about it, it rings true.*
Thanks
This statement of yours about MC should be shouted from the rooftops. Why do we hardly ever see a counselor responding here. They do advertise their services at so much a minute. Surely if they can prove their worth it would help. I have already written what is wrong with them elsewhere with no comment from them. 
I must mention that I believe that most posters here see the problems from their own experiences and answer accordingly. 
It wont be easy for you to get her to stop punishing you, but it can be done.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

accept said:


> Why do we hardly ever see a counselor responding here. They do advertise their services at so much a minute. Surely if they can prove their worth it would help. I have already written what is wrong with them elsewhere with no comment from them.


Can you give a link to what you wrote on MCs?


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

Double post.


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## accept (Dec 1, 2011)

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/experi...ur-experiences-professional-counseling-2.html

I also write often in my posts about them.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Actual she might be pushing back on the alpha due to another alpha claiming that spot with her. It's her saying she's taken already by an alpha so you need to back off.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Pal (Dec 19, 2011)

accept said:


> I must mention that I believe that most posters here see the problems from their own experiences and answer accordingly.


I have noticed. Sort of taints things a bit since so many of them were so emotionally brutalized. 



Shaggy said:


> Actual she might be pushing back on the alpha due to another alpha claiming that spot with her. It's her saying she's taken already by an alpha so you need to back off.


Not how the whole alpha thing works.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Pal said:


> Not how the whole alpha thing works.


Part of dynamic does work that way. If a female feels she has earned the ownership of the lead alpha, she will reject attempts by lesser alphas to take her. It's like the lioness in a pride, she will reject the lesser male to preserve her place in the pride and with the alpha.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Pal (Dec 19, 2011)

Thank you for everyone’s responses. I see that the situation is very serious. Although based on a variety of reasons, I do not believe that my wife has cheated; I do see that she is extremely vulnerable to the right guy, at the right time, saying and doing the right things. Based on advice given here, I read my original post to my wife to see what she thought. She did not disagree with any of my points and acknowledged that this was a problem that she was concerned about.

I told her that I was not interested in saving the marriage, but that I was interested in strengthen the marriage so that it would not have to be saved because one of us did something stupid. I went on to tell her that it was not just about her happiness, but that my happiness was important too. I explained that although I loved her and was in love with her, I was not happy with the current situation and that my needs where not being met by her. When she pointed out that my unhappiness made me vulnerable, I told her that looking at it realistically, long term she might be right. She looked concerned by my response. I told her that I can only change myself and be responsible for my own happiness and that she was responsible for changing herself and for her own happiness. Bottom line was that I am willing to continue to do the needed work but that it takes to build a marriage and that it was time for her to step up to the plate. She said that she loved me with all of her heart and that she was willing to do the work but would need guidance from me on what to do.

Thanks again for all of you helping me see this more clearly.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

MC has a high divorce rate because people who go for counseling are in trouble! I found couples therapy to be very helpful in several ways. First, it was a safe place to discuss things. Basically it moderated the wife's normal quick reaction of blowing off whatever I said. The therapist made sure we each had the opportunity to speak and that the other person listened. Second, we were accountable to somebody. Third, it was a demonstration of my statement that we were in serious trouble. i.e. we were there because things were nearly at the breaking point, and I did not want it to go any further.

Both people have to be honestly committed to working on the issues or therapy is not going to work. Even if committed, things may be too far gone.

I don't think couples therapy causes divorce. Avoiding going because the divorce rate is high is like not going to see the doctor when you have a serious pain because you are afraid of the diagnosis.


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## Enginerd (May 24, 2011)

Its true that we are all painted by our experiences and you are wise to be selective about acting on the the advice given here. Some people have a serious amount of emotional scar tissue. Every situtation is at least a little bit unique and it looks like you handled the first phase of your journey very well. 

Something I've learned about people in general. The right words are nice to hear, but actions are the only reliable indicator of change. Women are generally more verbal and some tend to say the things they think we want to hear or say things that will get them out of an uncomfortable situation. Ever hear the old saying "It's a womens prerogative to change her mind". Make sure the actions match the words and you'll be on solid ground.

Best Wishes


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## accept (Dec 1, 2011)

You may have had a good MC. I have been to three and only one was any good. its the MC who often causes divorce not the therapy. By for instance saying about one of the parties that her grievances are correct when they are really only petty. Even if they are great his job ought to be to smooth them out not make them worse than they acturally are. Especially if they have been done a long time ago he should try to make her forget them not bolster them.


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## Pal (Dec 19, 2011)

Thor said:


> MC has a high divorce rate because people who go for counseling are in trouble!


That is a theory not supported by data. Although over 90% of people that visit MC end in divorce, according to modern therapy science, divorce is not failure. This is because keeping the marriage together is not the goal of most therapists. The happiness of the individual is the goal, and if one or the other would be viewed by the MC as being better off out of the marriage, they will move in that direction. Additionally, only 12% of therapists are trained in MC. The rest are trying to use IC techniques in MC, even though IC and MC have totally different dynamics and needs.



Thor said:


> Avoiding going because the divorce rate is high is like not going to see the doctor when you have a serious pain because you are afraid of the diagnosis.


If 90% of people visiting a doctor died at the doctor’s office, I would avoid going there accept as a last resort.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Pal said:


> That is a theory not supported by data. Although over 90% of people that visit MC end in divorce, according to modern therapy science, divorce is not failure. This is because keeping the marriage together is not the goal of most therapists. The happiness of the individual is the goal, and if one or the other would be viewed by the MC as being better off out of the marriage, they will move in that direction. Additionally, only 12% of therapists are trained in MC. The rest are trying to use IC techniques in MC, even though IC and MC have totally different dynamics and needs.
> 
> If 90% of people visiting a doctor died at the doctor’s office, I would avoid going there accept as a last resort.


That's just silly.

How many couples in a good happy marriage go to marriage therapy? Pretty much ZERO. How many would be divorced with no therapy? idk, it is an impossible thing to quantify. We would have to take random couples who want therapy and prevent them from getting it, then compare their divorce rate to those who go to therapy.

It is true that many therapists do not put a value on the marriage. As you state, some are deciding which direction will bring more happiness to one or the other spouse. A pro-marriage therapist will work to save the marriage even if it is difficult, as long as both spouses desire to do so.

Our therapist asked each of us at the beginning and end of every session if we wanted to save the marriage.

Look for a therapist or counselor with certifications in the field.


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## Pal (Dec 19, 2011)

Thor said:


> How many couples in a good happy marriage go to marriage therapy? Pretty much ZERO.


How many go to MC to make their marraige better with no talk of divorce when they first go? Now how many of these couples end up divorcing based on one or the other being encouraged in MC to seek individual happiness?


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Pal said:


> How many go to MC to make their marraige better with no talk of divorce when they first go? Now how many of these couples end up divorcing based on one or the other being encouraged in MC to seek individual happiness?


That's why a couple needs to decide what their goals and values are. Then seek a therapist who matches that. If your goal is to decide for yourself alone what will make you happier, you go to a counselor who has that orientation. If you value marriage and are willing to do hard work, you select a therapist who is pro-marriage.

Not every marriage counselor or therapist is good. Not every couple will survive married even if they go to the best therapist in the world. My experience was that it was too big of a project to be DIY, and we needed some outside help.

And I don't yet know if we're going to make it. But I do know we would have been done months ago if we hadn't tried MC.


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## FrankKissel (Nov 14, 2011)

Pal said:


> If 90% of people visiting a doctor died at the doctor’s office, I would avoid going there accept as a last resort.


1. Do you have any verifiable, scientific data to support this 90 percent figure you're tossing out? And what's the divorce rate for deeply troubled couples who don't seek counseling? Think the former number - whatever it may be - is worthless without the other.

2. The doctor analogy ain't the best. People go to the doctor for all sorts of ailments, the vast majority of them not serious and not immediately life threatening.
I'd suspect nobody seeks marriage counseling over the marital equivalent of a cough or sinus infection. It may be more accurate to compare the marriage counselor to the onconologist for whom every patient has Stage 3 or beyond.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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