# Handling a wife's emotional affair or maybe the EA of my wife's friend toward my wife



## WillK

Okay. I have to jump right in on this one, and I've read a post that seemed helpful - and I've gathered a user going by Entropy is a resident expert and I'd be very appreciative of his feedback.

My wife has reason to be seperating me, she's younger than me and has some growing up to do, and I've been guilty of behaviour problems that are common with marriage.

One of those problems is that we've become emotionally distant.

Let me make clear, that for reasons I won't get into, my wife insists she would never have a sexual affair because it would have consequences for our children who are age 5 & 6. I believe her and trust her completely.

But one of our son's friends has a dad with whom my wife has formed a friendship. I believe my wife did so to try to fill the emotional needs I should have been satisfying.

I've confronted my wife about whether she is having an emotional affair, and she says she is not.. I partially believe her, even though I feel as though she's getting emotional needs satisfied by him that she should get from me.

As a measure of what's going on, he frequently texts her. My wife doesn't text back very much, sometimes not at all.

I've gathered that he is separated from his wife.

More likely, I think, is that he is having an emotional affair type attachment to my wife, my wife may have the strength to resist the attachment (she says, and I believe, that he's not the type of person that appeals to my wife...)

I acknowledge it's okay for my wife to have a friend, an appropriate relationship shouldn't take any kind of secrecy to carry on and I would feel that if I can talk to this dude, then that's a sign there's nothing being hidden by my wife. For that matter, I probably should make more friends so I can talk with other people rather than overburden my wife by being the only one I can turn to.

Here's my question: 
Would there be anything inappropriate about me talking with the dad of our son's friend? He's out waiting at school to pick up his son every day, and my wife is volunteering today - I'll be
picking up the kids after school.

Responses greatly appreciated!


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## iheartlife

WillK said:


> My wife has reason to be seperating me, she's younger than me and has some growing up to do, and I've been guilty of behaviour problems that are common with marriage.
> 
> One of those problems is that we've become emotionally distant.


Can you explain what this means? Are you separated, or has she asked for a separation?


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## WillK

She's getting a nearby apartment, and she's said she'll have the kids Sunday through Weds. and take them to school Thursday morning, I pick up the kids Thursday after school and keep them until Sunday morning.

She's spoke about this as something she needs to do to grow as a person - you see, she does have issues with dependency and she is capable of independence, but chooses not to be independent and enables that by blaming others for her state of dependency. Moving out will be good for this issue because she can't blame anyone and she'll be forced to learn that she has the capacity to be responsible for her own actions.

Also, our house is a very long story, suffice to say it needs to be gutted and while she's living in the apartment, I'll make major headway on remodelling in our house and after the 6 month lease the house will be a much better place - the house's issues are a huge source of anxiety for her.

Mind you, her schedule isn't going to leave her much free time. She's taking on Saturday work to pay for the apartment rent, already working Thursday and Friday, she goes to the gym, she'll have to do groceries cleaning and laundry in the time the kids are away, and she often volunteers and/or has marathon events that take up the whole day Saturday. (She works for her mom's business, so doing work is something she gets a lot of flexibility with, so I'm sure if she has a full day event Saturday she'll get 48 hours of work in somewhere in the Thursday-Friday time.)


I don't think it really is a detail that's significantly germain to the question - aside from the fact that I am trying to communicate that I'm confident the separation isn't the guaranteed end of our marriage. I know I have work to do and I am hopeful that I can do it with a good chance of saving our marriage.

This is just a matter of my wanting to ensure this friend is not going to be someone that comes between us.

So I'm thinking at the end of the school day, I'l just talk with this guy and start off just asking if we can talk, and maybe I'll try asking about his marriage and discussing that - and at an appropriate point, simply tell him that I want very much to save my own marriage, and I appreciate that he's been a friend to my wife, but I'm concerned that the friendship might be interfering with our healing process.

What I'd appreciate is some feedback if I'm going about this right or if there's anything I should do differently?


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## NextTimeAround

***I've confronted my wife about whether she is having an emotional affair, and she says she is not..***

What actions on her part have you noticed that make you suspect she is having an EA?


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## TBT

I don't get the dependency issues fully.As husband and wife shouldn't you be able to rely and depend on each other? Maybe I'm just missing something here.


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## WillK

NextTimeAround said:


> ***I've confronted my wife about whether she is having an emotional affair, and she says she is not..***
> 
> What actions on her part have you noticed that make you suspect she is having an EA?


Okay, for one thing I have to preface this by describing my problems. I've been very frustrated that she wants to move out, and I had a bit of a breakthrough Saturday evening after she went to sleep. Prior to this breakthrough, I would react to her in a manner that was defensive and reactive. After the breakthrough, I listen to her, acknowledge her, express my understanding and refrain from defensiveness and reaction that only serve to inflame the situation.

This one simple breakthrough has been wonderful at starting a dramatic turnaround of a deteriorating relationship.

So with that said, I've suspected an EA because of the deteriorating relationship, because she has been texting this guy frequently, because she's been slightly deceptive - mind you, she knows I look at texts, she doesn't object, and she doesn't say anything much back. But he has a nickname for her "freckles" (she's a redhead) that has been uncomfortable.

There's more to the story from our past before we had kids I won't get in to. Suffice to say we've been in counseling before and I've always been a LH.


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## strugglinghusband

You should ask Entropy, you may be able to PM him?
(I would ask 1st)


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## WillK

TBT said:


> I don't get the dependency issues fully.As husband and wife shouldn't you be able to rely and depend on each other? Maybe I'm just missing something here.


Okay I'll give an example. I've been between jobs for 4 weeks, I started a new job yesterday. One day a couple weeks back, while I'd finished my interviewing and was aware I'd be getting a job offer, in the days waiting for the new job to start I used the time to get some work on the house done - in particular, a large project involving digging out, mixing and pouring concrete in our house's crawlspace. 

I was mixing and pouring concrete on this day, and I had rented a mixer so I wanted to get everything done by a certain time, I would need to return the mixer first thing in the morning to avoid additional rental charges. I needed to finish before a father-daughter event at school that evening. I was a little behind.

My wife wanted to order pizza. She got mad at me that I hadn't stopped working to order the pizza.

Without me around, she wouldn't have depended on me to do something she could have done herself.

It's probably not something that makes a lot of sense, you might have to just take my word for it. She's younger by 7 years than me and she's a youngest of 3 daughters, and she's never lived on her own - plus she's probably been babied a lot by her mom (and I'm probably guilty as well since we've been together). It's a little understandable, at 13 she was in a major car accident in which, besides her own injuries, her best friend was killed.


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## Toffer

Will,

Wake up and get your head out of you azz quickly! Do some reading in the Coping With Infidelity forum.

While you may be right that your wife isn't having an affair currently, she's waving a TON of red flags that she may be having one or is thinking about one

she's younger than me and has some growing up to do - Red Flag

he frequently texts her. My wife doesn't text back very much, sometimes not at all (that you know of. Is she possibly deleting texts?) - Red Flag

I've gathered that he is separated from his wife - HUGE Red Flag

I think, is that he is having an emotional affair type attachment to my wife. Another big Red Flag. There's an expression that cheaters allways "affair down" that means they usually trade down from their spouse in regards to looks, financial status and personality

She's getting a nearby apartment - Red Flag - She's getting almost free reign (yes, I saw the part about the kids) to explore her feelings for the other man (OM) and keep you on stand-by if it doesn;t work out. Plus you'll have the house all fixed up for her IF she comes back to you!

She is without the kids 4 days of the week - Red Flag - What's to prevent sleepovers on these days? How many hours does she normally work on Thu/Fri/Sat?/Sun?

I don't think it really is a detail that's significantly germain to the question - Red Flag - You're burying your head in the sand my friend and ignoring a very real possibility that your wife is cheating on you. You need to rule this out!

Do you have access to the cell phone account? If so, starting reviewing past invoices to see if there are alot of texts/phone calls to numbers you don't know. Does she keep her phone with her at all times? Is it password protected?

Does she have a PC that she will have with her in her apartment? If so, get a keylogger on it NOW before she moves! Also plant a voice activated recorder in her car under the seat with heavy duty velcro.

Again, while I may be WAY OFF base here, what could it hurt for you to check into this? It would at least put your mind at ease and tell you whether or not you truly have a shot a fixing your marriage.


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## TBT

The OM is recently separated and now your wife is separating from you.You're not comfortable with the level of emotion and frequency of texts between them and he even has a pet nickname for her.All that alone would make me want to verify what's really going on between them.Texting alone isn't the only way they have to communicate as being the father of your son's schoolmate,he is part and parcel of your immediate community.Talking to him may set your mind at ease,but if his intentions are to pursue your wife I don't think he would ever admit to it to you.jmo


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## Shaggy

Hell yes you should be worried. She's getting her own place, she is going have weekend nights free and open. She and he are already texting and sharing. Perfect storm situation.

Her moving to be independent sounds really fishy really. She's a mom and wife, those are lifetime commitments. How is living in her own place and free on Fri/sat nights going to grow her? You know his it will grow here, she's going to be free to party and meet guys socially.

What are the rules for this separation? What are the terms for ending it someday?

Honestly I think you are being payed here and it's not going to end well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WillK

Toffer said:


> Again, while I may be WAY OFF base here, what could it hurt for you to check into this? It would at least put your mind at ease and tell you whether or not you truly have a shot a fixing your marriage.


Let me be clear - it is not that I haven't considered all of that. I have. I just want the discussion focussed on my specific question. Whether I speak with OM is my question because it is an area where I am uncertain about how to deal with the situation. Everything else, I am not asking about because I don't have uncertainty about dealing with it.

To answer a few questions - I review our cell phone online frequently to see if she's active with texting, I know and recognize OM's phone number, my wife has her phone with her during the day but leaves it out at night, she doesn't lock it. She leaves her texts on the phone. I compare her texts to the phone records, there are not texts that get deleted before I see them.


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## tacoma

Don`t talk to the OM.

Start checking your wifes communications.

If she`s already got a new place though I don`t see what difference it makes as it sounds like she`s done anyway.


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## tacoma

WillK said:


> Let me be clear - it is not that I haven't considered all of that. I have. I just want the discussion focussed on my specific question. Whether I speak with OM is my question because it is an area where I am uncertain about how to deal with the situation. Everything else, I am not asking about because I don't have uncertainty about dealing with it.


Ok then,

No do not speak to the Om because you have pretty good reason to think he`s doing "something" with your wife.
What motivation does he have to even be sincere about anything with you?
What motivation might he have to lie?

How would you know?

Anything you hear from the OM is just a possible emotional grenade.
It won`t help you at all.


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## iheartlife

WillK, this is a very bad situation. Very bad.

The biggest red flag--deceptiveness. The minute it's detected, THAT VERY MINUTE, you should consider this a five alarm fire. It is the gateway through which all affairs occur. It is the moment in which she is learning, before your very eyes, to lie to herself and to you.

This whole 'dependency' thing--that is called a rationalization.

She uses it as an excuse--to LIE to you and to herself--that she "needs" to "learn" how not to be dependent on you.

YOU use it too--because golly, she needs to learn how to order a pizza.

Please go back and read your description of the pizza example (and don't go telling us that it wasn't a very good example!). You were busy at work. She gets mad you didn't order a pizza--when she could easily order the pizza. In YOUR twisted logic, living on her own is going to....teach her to order a pizza when you're busy at work?

Let's say she is young and inexperienced and used to others doing her bidding (which means that she's accustomed, perhaps, to being indulged, since many a 13 year old orders their own pizza). Exactly how could she not learn this lesson while married to you and living in your house? You just showed us how. You cannot wait on her hand and foot (any more than I suspect you already do). Ergo, she needs to step up and become an adult--but all it takes is for you to stop doing things for her. While still married, and under the same roof. Independence learned.

---------------

I also need to comment on something else you said, which is you want your specific question answered. The forum can certainly help you answer specific questions. But because the people here (such as myself) have direct experience with affairs, including (like myself) emotional affairs in particular, posters tend to take different pieces of the issue and expand on them. These might initially seem to you not to be important or relevant. Please step back and take another look at what seems like extraneous advice. It is part of a larger picture that is going to help you with the larger problems in your marriage.


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## lamaga

OK, ignoring most of the comments here --

judging from your post, your wife is dealing with this in an appropriate manner. Your question was should you talk to the guy?

I say no. That's putting your wife in an infantilized role, like you need to take care of her issues. That would p*ss me off bigtime, and it's simply not appropriate. I'm guessing you didn't marry a child, so don't treat her as one. As long as she continues to not return his advances, let her deal with it. She is an adult, and she deserves that you respect her as such.


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## Toffer

WillK said:


> Let me be clear - it is not that I haven't considered all of that. I have. I just want the discussion focussed on my specific question. Whether I speak with OM is my question because it is an area where I am uncertain about how to deal with the situation. Everything else, I am not asking about because I don't have uncertainty about dealing with it.
> 
> To answer a few questions - I review our cell phone online frequently to see if she's active with texting, I know and recognize OM's phone number, my wife has her phone with her during the day but leaves it out at night, she doesn't lock it. She leaves her texts on the phone. I compare her texts to the phone records, there are not texts that get deleted before I see them.


Sorry OP but let ME be clear. There are numerous ways around you here that she could be using. Can you say Pay As You Go cell phone? There are TONS of ways for cheaters to conceal what they are up to! Secret email accounts for example

What I and others here are telling you to do is VERIFY that she isn't having and affair although if you read a bit more on this site (especially the Infidelity forum) you'll see that there are a ton of betrayed spouses who wished they'd followed some of this basic invesigative tips early on in their marital crisis. They may have been able to stop an EA before it went physical or may have been able to at least learn much earlier that their spouse was cheating.

Please listen to the voices of experience that you have sought out.


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## iheartlife

lamaga said:


> OK, ignoring most of the comments here --
> 
> judging from your post, your wife is dealing with this in an appropriate manner. Your question was should you talk to the guy?
> 
> I say no. That's putting your wife in an infantilized role, like you need to take care of her issues. That would p*ss me off bigtime, and it's simply not appropriate. I'm guessing you didn't marry a child, so don't treat her as one. As long as she continues to not return his advances, let her deal with it. She is an adult, and she deserves that you respect her as such.


He says she is being deceptive about the communications.

I agree he treats her like an infant--that is painfully clear (see my post on the previous page).

But there is zero call for deceptiveness. This is the lifeblood of an affair. 

There is this myth that if you express boundaries to your spouse about communicating with a member of the opposite sex in an inappropriate way you are somehow controlling.

That may get confused in this case because this man does have a quasi-parent role in his marriage.

But make no mistake--setting this type of firm boundaries is the very essence of marriage. It is in no way unreasonable or inappropriate or controlling. This is not a parent / child thing. This is a, respect your fellow life partner thing.


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## WillK

tacoma said:


> Don`t talk to the OM.


Well, I'd appreciate a little more elaboration as to why you say that. 

To offer more detail, OM is OM because it simplifies referencing him on this forum. This might just be a harmless friendship, the worst it could be is him having a crush on her. I don't distrust my wife nor do I think she's dishonest.

He's a flaming liberal tree-hugger, with all due respect to anyone of similar political persuasion, and my wife is passionately conservative-ish. He's a bit of a slacker in a manner that would be a repulsive to my wife.

What he does is express interest in what my wife's up to, and he listens. 



> Start checking your wifes communications.


Thought it was already clear that I already do.



> If she`s already got a new place though I don`t see what difference it makes as it sounds like she`s done anyway.


Seperate subject. Really it is.. Sorry to blow it off, but I don't have questions there and I'm trying to keep my discussion from getting any more length than it already is because I'm at work. I can't simply agree or disagree. 

I've been an azz to my wife. Had I continued without my realization this past Sunday, absolutely she'd never come back from the apartment. It's too soon to say, but I have plenty of reason to be hopeful that the marriage will be saved because of my change. I'm not just saying I'll change, I'm demonstrating it. My wife is responding, she's talking where she was distant. She's happy where she was angry. We're working together more. She's listenning.


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## Toffer

Iamaga,

Most times I see eye to eye with you and it's not that I really disagree with your last few posts (she may not be ready to start a physical affair) but the truth of the matter is that even the OP recognizes the fact that she is CURRENTLY in an EA! Choosing to ignore that and the warning signs is somewhat short sighted.

You're right though, he shouldn't waste time talking to the OM. He should be monitoring his wife's activities to put this issue to rest.

I would be please as punch if he were to come back here in a few weeks time and tell me what an Ahole I am for having suggested that she was up to something because he has irrefutable proof she isn't. I would be happier than all get out to eat my words but from everything he's told us so far, I am having a real hard time believing she isn't up to something (or at the very least, entertaining the thoughts!)


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## lamaga

Ah, Toffer. I like you too. But I don't think monitoring is the answer. It's rarely the answer. It's a technological response to an emotional problem.

But, we'll just have to see.


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## seriously_yours

WillK said:


> Let me be clear - it is not that I haven't considered all of that. I have. I just want the discussion focussed on my specific question. Whether I speak with OM is my question because it is an area where I am uncertain about how to deal with the situation. Everything else, I am not asking about because I don't have uncertainty about dealing with it.
> 
> .


Good point, your question stands.
You should absolutely speak to him
Who knows what he is being told by her. She may be leading him on. Alternately this may all be innocent and if so no harm done. Telling the dude you are working on your marriage and his interactions may hinder that will not hurt you in any way. He might just do the right thing and back off
Not every dude is a D-Bag
Then take the time to understand and deal with the issues you identified in the marriage. SO much focus on catching, maybe the same level of effort in fixing would help ?

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
_what you do speaks so loud, I can't hear what you say_


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## NaturalHeart

Baby she playing you like a piano. I'm sorry


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## WillK

lamaga said:


> OK, ignoring most of the comments here --
> 
> judging from your post, your wife is dealing with this in an appropriate manner. Your question was should you talk to the guy?
> 
> I say no. That's putting your wife in an infantilized role, like you need to take care of her issues. That would p*ss me off bigtime, and it's simply not appropriate. I'm guessing you didn't marry a child, so don't treat her as one. As long as she continues to not return his advances, let her deal with it. She is an adult, and she deserves that you respect her as such.



Honestly - this is the kind of discussion I need.

You bring up another problem, but it's one for us to deal with in therapy. My parents have never divorced. She grew up with her mom who divorced her dad. She's been babied by her mom before me, when I met her at age 21 she couldn't drive. In our relationship, I've felled a void she's had because she grew up without a father.

I want to be her wife, not her father. She may have needed my fatherliness when we first met, she doesn't now and it's an aspect of our relationship that does need to be dealt with. Frankly, I think that by getting the apartment, we may be able to start our relationship anew as husband and wife and leave behind the father daughter thing. In a way, that's why I don't view the apartment as death's door for our relationship.



With that out of the way, on the original topic. Your suggestion is one I'll ponder. 

I think the ideal situation is this: The guy, if it's a harmless friendship, can be her friend. I'd feel better if he was a friend of my wifes and there wasn't this wall of seperation.. Heck, if he's having marital difficulties, maybe we have something in common and we can help eachother work through our wife problems.

I think the best take-away from your post is that if that's a possible outcome of whether I spoke with OM, then it should be something I do after discussing it with my wife before acting on your own.

Thanks for the post, it really helped me clear up my confusion on the subject.


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## Toffer

Will,

You wrote 

"I've been an azz to my wife. Had I continued without my realization this past Sunday, absolutely she'd never come back from the apartment. It's too soon to say, but I have plenty of reason to be hopeful that the marriage will be saved because of my change. I'm not just saying I'll change, I'm demonstrating it. My wife is responding, she's talking where she was distant. She's happy where she was angry. We're working together more. She's listenning"

Sorry but I have my suspicions as will many others who come across this thread later today. She's happy because she's getting her own place and she'll be kid free for 4 out of 7 days! Hel*, That would make my life easier too!

Also, while I know you've contributed to problems in your marriage, i am sure your wife has too. Does she take any ownership?

All the naysayers on here are just telling you to "Trust but Verify". We're not doing it to be bitter people. we're doing it to keep one more poor spouse from being blind sided by the person they trust the most in their life.

I'll drop out of the discussion now since you don't want to follow my line of advice and while I truly hope I am wrong, I doubt it

Best of luck with your situation and while I pray that you don't need to come back to this site in the future (or the Coping With Infidelity forum) please know that if you do, you will be greeted with open arms and understanding, not with "I told you so"


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## WillK

seriously_yours said:


> Good point, your question stands.
> You should absolutely speak to him
> Who knows what he is being told by her. She may be leading him on. Alternately this may all be innocent and if so no harm done. Telling the dude you are working on your marriage and his interactions may hinder that will not hurt you in any way. He might just do the right thing and back off
> Not every dude is a D-Bag
> Then take the time to understand and deal with the issues you identified in the marriage. SO much focus on catching, maybe the same level of effort in fixing would help ?
> 
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> _what you do speaks so loud, I can't hear what you say_


Well ya know, that speaks to me too. Ya know, while between jobs I've picked up the kids. The dude never seemed awkward around me, he said hi to me. I never got a sense he had any antipathy towards me.

I'm still thinking it might be best to talk with my wife. My only aprehension on that is at this point, I do have work repairing the relationship and that includes winning her back. I do want to avoid things where I'll get emotional in front of my wife.


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## Toffer

OK, I lied....One more post to Seriously Yours 

You said "Not every dude is a D-Bag" I think this one is. If he is truly hitting on her, he knows she's married and has kids.

Therefore, Hitting on married woman = DB in my equation


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## iheartlife

WillK said:


> I don't distrust my wife nor do I think she's dishonest.


This contradicts what you said earlier, about you seeing evidence of her being deceptive. So which is it? My spouse is as honest as the day is long. He is trusted professionally by people whose names you would recognize. Professionally, I think he is one of the best at his job that you could find. But when he found someone who was willing to listen to him, any time of day or night, without criticism, without the intrusion of the real world, he learned how to be deceptive to ME. And right quick.




> He's a flaming liberal tree-hugger, with all due respect to anyone of similar political persuasion, and my wife is passionately conservative-ish. He's a bit of a slacker in a manner that would be a repulsive to my wife.


Don't be so sure about that! Most affair partners aren't someone you'd pick out of a line up either. Like the majority of the time, you wouldn't.



> What he does is express interest in what my wife's up to, and he listens.


That's all it takes to become infatuated with someone. If you read His Needs / Her Needs, it explains it very well. Express interest and care in someone--then demonstrate that you're there for them. The book calls the mix so powerful that it warns that it's a basic recipe for falling in love.

We just want you to learn from our mistakes. You don't have to listen. It just makes me wonder--as the victim of a secret emotional affair that I discovered through pure accident--why ask the questions, then.


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## Almostrecovered

I think in this case separation means- "I want some time and space to explore the relationship with my EA partner to see if it will work/be fun and keep my husband as the back up plan/financier"


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## WillK

Toffer said:


> Will,
> 
> Sorry but I have my suspicions as will many others who come across this thread later today. She's happy because she's getting her own place and she'll be kid free for 4 out of 7 days! Hel*, That would make my life easier too!


This is a matter of using the time I have at work where I am trying to focus my discussing, really I'd have much more to say if time wasn't an object.

The happiness I spoke of is not from the apartment, trust me. Up to last Saturday, every day got worse. Sunday, she started angry - I listened and acknowledged. It was night and day, I made a huge change.

And it's not 4 out of 7 days, it's 3.

Neither of us have been anything other than repulsed by bars or clubs, it's not our thing.

TTFN, time to pick up kids.


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## iheartlife

WillK, I know you're at work and don't have time to answer everything.

Can you please clarify the point you made about your wife not being a dishonest person who is, in your words, being deceptive about communicating with this man.

What does that mean?


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## WillK

Thanks for the discussion, I'll be back around later.


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## WillK

iheartlife said:


> WillK, I know you're at work and don't have time to answer everything.
> 
> Can you please clarify the point you made about your wife not being a dishonest person who is, in your words, being deceptive about communicating with this man.
> 
> What does that mean?


I've asked about her texts, she isn't hiding them. She answers my questions and her answers don't contradict anything.


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## Toffer

My bad

72 hours of complete freedom to do as she pleases, not 96

I apologize again for chimimg in but I see the captain is busy rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic


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## Entropy3000

WillK said:


> Okay. I have to jump right in on this one, and I've read a post that seemed helpful - and I've gathered a user going by Entropy is a resident expert and I'd be very appreciative of his feedback.
> 
> *I am an example of what not to do. I had an EA. My wife is an example of how to deal with it.*
> 
> My wife has reason to be seperating me, she's younger than me and has some growing up to do, and I've been guilty of behaviour problems that are common with marriage.
> 
> One of those problems is that we've become emotionally distant.
> 
> Let me make clear, that for reasons I won't get into, my wife insists she would never have a sexual affair because it would have consequences for our children who are age 5 & 6. I believe her and trust her completely.
> 
> *I believe blind trust is some combination of lazy, naive and ambivalent. You make the call. Trust is earned. Marriage is based on Love and Respect. Trust is a by-product. Yes trust is essential, but when folks claim marriage is about trust they are really having the tail wag the dog EAs are chemically based and it all seems quite innocent at the beginning. Nothing going on here we are just friends. Effectively people form a deep emotional bond and then fall in love. We trust our partners not to do that. But they are not thinking clearly. They can be very naive as well. It feels ok.*
> 
> But one of our son's friends has a dad with whom my wife has formed a friendship. I believe my wife did so to try to fill the emotional needs I should have been satisfying.
> 
> *VERY BAD!!! Filling needs like this outside of marriage is dangerous. Especially when needs are not being met at home. In y opinion this is very inappropriate. This can move to unfaithful quickly. If you tell her she needs to stop doing this and she does anyway it is by definition unfaithful.
> *
> I've confronted my wife about whether she is having an emotional affair, and she says she is not.. I partially believe her, even though I feel as though she's getting emotional needs satisfied by him that she should get from me.
> 
> *People in EAs are in the fog. I did not realize that my wife was correct until I went through withdrawal. So you tell her that her relationship with this guy is unacceptable. if she resists she is definitely in an EA. Stop partially believing her. That is unhelpful. That is being a nice guy. She may not realize how deep she is in. No matter. The thing is that this stuff progresses very quickly. Like travelling too close to a black hole. This must be stopped early. Put you foot down and insist on no contact. IMMEDIATELY. No fond farewells. FWIW by the time this type of thing is noticed it is usually way down the road already. Squash this today.*
> 
> As a measure of what's going on, he frequently texts her. My wife doesn't text back very much, sometimes not at all.
> 
> *She needs to cut him out of her life. She may or may not be contacting him in other ways. But cut this off now. Feel free to tell this guy to cease and desist but you need to get your wife to shut it down first. You do want to start monitoring activities.*
> 
> I've gathered that he is separated from his wife.
> 
> More likely, I think, is that he is having an emotional affair type attachment to my wife, my wife may have the strength to resist the attachment (she says, and I believe, that he's not the type of person that appeals to my wife...)
> 
> *Many folks have affairs with people others think are unlikely. Does not matter in how you approach this. He is after your wife. She has not shut him down. bad sign.*
> 
> I acknowledge it's okay for my wife to have a friend, an appropriate relationship shouldn't take any kind of secrecy to carry on and I would feel that if I can talk to this dude, then that's a sign there's nothing being hidden by my wife. For that matter, I probably should make more friends so I can talk with other people rather than overburden my wife by being the only one I can turn to.
> 
> *Stop this. Shut this down. Then start reconnecting with your wife. You cannot work on the marriage while she has this relationship. Stopp being nice about this unless you want your wife to connect with other men.*
> 
> Here's my question:
> Would there be anything inappropriate about me talking with the dad of our son's friend? He's out waiting at school to pick up his son every day, and my wife is volunteering today - I'll be
> picking up the kids after school.
> 
> Responses greatly appreciated!


*Deal with your wife first. Make sure she shuts this down. Monitor it. If he pursues her anyway, get in his face. I do not think one can play witn this stuff. It takes urgency to shut things down. You have another person in your marriage now. Cut them out. THEN, work on your marriage.*


----------



## Entropy3000

WillK said:


> She's getting a nearby apartment, and she's said she'll have the kids Sunday through Weds. and take them to school Thursday morning, I pick up the kids Thursday after school and keep them until Sunday morning.
> 
> She's spoke about this as something she needs to do to grow as a person - you see, she does have issues with dependency and she is capable of independence, but chooses not to be independent and enables that by blaming others for her state of dependency. Moving out will be good for this issue because she can't blame anyone and she'll be forced to learn that she has the capacity to be responsible for her own actions.
> 
> Also, our house is a very long story, suffice to say it needs to be gutted and while she's living in the apartment, I'll make major headway on remodelling in our house and after the 6 month lease the house will be a much better place - the house's issues are a huge source of anxiety for her.
> 
> Mind you, her schedule isn't going to leave her much free time. She's taking on Saturday work to pay for the apartment rent, already working Thursday and Friday, she goes to the gym, she'll have to do groceries cleaning and laundry in the time the kids are away, and she often volunteers and/or has marathon events that take up the whole day Saturday. (She works for her mom's business, so doing work is something she gets a lot of flexibility with, so I'm sure if she has a full day event Saturday she'll get 48 hours of work in somewhere in the Thursday-Friday time.)
> 
> 
> I don't think it really is a detail that's significantly germain to the question - aside from the fact that I am trying to communicate that I'm confident the separation isn't the guaranteed end of our marriage. I know I have work to do and I am hopeful that I can do it with a good chance of saving our marriage.
> 
> This is just a matter of my wanting to ensure this friend is not going to be someone that comes between us.
> 
> So I'm thinking at the end of the school day, I'l just talk with this guy and start off just asking if we can talk, and maybe I'll try asking about his marriage and discussing that - and at an appropriate point, simply tell him that I want very much to save my own marriage, and I appreciate that he's been a friend to my wife, but I'm concerned that the friendship might be interfering with our healing process.
> 
> What I'd appreciate is some feedback if I'm going about this right or if there's anything I should do differently?


Total FAIL. This is called ISOLATION. She is likely ready to move her affair onto the next level with this guy or someone else.

I am not a believer in separations. If she is leaving I suggest you start moving forward with the divorce.

This is so far down the road you are not even talking about EAs any more.

I understand you wanting to be a straight up guy here. But is is still you asking this guy not to take your wife from you. The fact she has left you, you will find will likely in her mind put her as being single.


----------



## Entropy3000

Almostrecovered said:


> I think in this case separation means- "I want some time and space to explore the relationship with my EA partner to see if it will work/be fun and keep my husband as the back up plan/financier"


When I first replied I thought this was early on. And once again this thing is to the point she is moving or has moved out and pursuing a new life with another man.

Hokey Smokes!!!


----------



## WillK

Toffer said:


> My bad
> 
> 72 hours of complete freedom to do as she pleases, not 96
> 
> I apologize again for chimimg in but I see the captain is busy rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic


This sounds a little like a passive agressive response. Relationships are a complicated thing. I wonder if it would have been easier for everyone to just answer my question if I'd just asked the question without any background?

I'll spend more time responding next to Entropy's responses. They are informative, but because there is more to the situation than I have stated, and the actual situation merits a different conclusion.

You see.. Her moving out set in motion because of our relationship problems, but it has never been a complete cutting off of me from her.

The communication between my wife and "OM" that happenned yesterday was something I misunderstood. I spoke with my wife about it. She explained that "OM" was asking about his son, who is autistic and his school therapist is helping his son develop socially, was having lunch at the pond at school with other students. "OM"was asking if our son would like to be invited.

It makes sense. I misinterpretted the message and thought "OM" was talking about meeting with the kids at a park with a pond.

My wife's relationship with him is ended, and it was a friendship as far as my wife understood, even if it might have been an early EA without her realizing.

Now with that said I hope everyone can give me the benefit of the doubt that I am close to the situation and better able to judge,and I'm not making this assessment based on blind trust.

I've skimmed the start of entropy's comments. I'm going to read the rest now, and I'll respond as appropriate. I sincerely thank everyone for their diverse responses. I'm glad that I got responses that helped me realize that my handling of this situation should start with communicating with my wife.

Our first appointment with our new therapist is next Thursday. It's next Thursday just because that's the soonest I got an appointment set up, not because it wasby design for my wife to have moved out first.


----------



## WillK

Entropy3000 said:


> Total FAIL. This is called ISOLATION. She is likely ready to move her affair onto the next level with this guy or someone else.
> 
> I am not a believer in separations. If she is leaving I suggest you start moving forward with the divorce.
> 
> This is so far down the road you are not even talking about EAs any more.
> 
> I understand you wanting to be a straight up guy here. But is is still you asking this guy not to take your wife from you. The fact she has left you, you will find will likely in her mind put her as being single.


I want to point out that I came here today because of a very specific question I had not been able to resolve to my satisfaction through my own introspection. I've been working through the overall situation of my marriage having deteriorated for over a month, and I think my descriptions might leave readers with confusion as I describe the state of our relationship as it was a week or more ago, and the state of the relationship is different now.

My wife moving out is for more than one reason. One of those reasons is unrelated to the relationship - it's about getting her out of the house so I can wreak havoc without having to constantly clean up until the phase of the construction is appropriate. I had even been considering temporary living arrangements, although in my contemplations I'd be part of those temporary living arrangements when I wasn't working on the house. (I think that if the relationship gets fixed, it's not out of the question that I'd be part of this apartment)

My wife knows that if she was unfaithful, she'd jeoprodize custody in a divorce. Whatever our problems are, that is something she's always been aware of and it is all the motivation she needs (and she needs no reminders) to not become involved with another man.

I am sure we will need to work through underlying issues. Her sister suspected unfaithfulness. I suspected it. Her mom suspected it. That kind of pressure was enough that she cut off the friendship because she didn't want that kind of pressure.

The point about being single is valid. I hope I've explained why I don't need to worry about competing with another man. I do need to compete with her being single.

Michigan divorce law requires a minimum of 6 months before even an uncontested divorce will be processed. Even in the degraded state our relationship was, she has motivation to not jeopardize her role in our children's life by staying away from a relationship with another man.

More to come in response to the other post.


----------



## WillK

Entropy3000 said:


> I believe blind trust is some combination of lazy, naive and ambivalent. You make the call. Trust is earned. Marriage is based on Love and Respect. Trust is a by-product. Yes trust is essential, but when folks claim marriage is about trust they are really having the tail wag the dog EAs are chemically based and it all seems quite innocent at the beginning. Nothing going on here we are just friends. Effectively people form a deep emotional bond and then fall in love. We trust our partners not to do that. But they are not thinking clearly. They can be very naive as well. It feels ok.


Details are private, but our first time going to therapy was before we had kids. Suffice it to say there was a reason for that, and we have more training in the signs of unfaithfulness than someone who has not been through therapy or this situation before. 

Admittedly, we've perhaps been repeating mistakes we could've corrected the first time - the first time we had therapy, we paid out of pocket and stopped for financial reasons. We thought we had fixed our problems, or at least we fixed enough that we could fix the rest on our own.



> VERY BAD!!! Filling needs like this outside of marriage is dangerous. Especially when needs are not being met at home. In y opinion this is very inappropriate. This can move to unfaithful quickly. If you tell her she needs to stop doing this and she does anyway it is by definition unfaithful.


I was describing recent history, not the present state of things.

I told her to stop last week and she did. And on Sunday, I made the change in myself that she needed so she the pieces would be in place that would allow her to start getting her emotional connectionfrom me instead of being repulsed by me.



> People in EAs are in the fog. I did not realize that my wife was correct until I went through withdrawal. So you tell her that her relationship with this guy is unacceptable. if she resists she is definitely in an EA. Stop partially believing her. That is unhelpful. That is being a nice guy. She may not realize how deep she is in. No matter. The thing is that this stuff progresses very quickly. Like travelling too close to a black hole. This must be stopped early. Put you foot down and insist on no contact. IMMEDIATELY. No fond farewells. FWIW by the time this type of thing is noticed it is usually way down the road already. Squash this today.


For the reasons I mentioned earlier, I think that if things progressed, my wife would have noticed and cut it off. The drama that resulted from suspicions was enough that she cut it off whether she believed it was EA or not.



me said:


> As a measure of what's going on, he frequently texts her. My wife doesn't text back very much, sometimes not at all.


I should elaborate this point. Up to some time last week he texted a good number of messages to her and she responded a few times. I couldn't say exactly when it changed, but I can say that here's some timeline:
Last Thursday - I was driving my wife to a store that's an hour's drive away. He was texting her, she responded twice. I read the texts, I forget what was going on, but he knew about what we were doing and that bothered me since they were still apparently talking when she drops off kids at school. Her responses were harmless, as I said I forget what they were - my concern from this day was the degree to which he knew what we were up to.
Friday and Saturday my wife went out of town with her mom for a marathon and there was no texting activity.
Sunday, I worked with our kids to give her a nice mothers day. He texted asking if she was having a good mothers day. She didn't respond.
Monday, I started my new job. He texted her a lot. She never responded. She deleted the texts. I had not had a chance to read them.
Tuesday, he texted about our child having lunch with his child. He sent 2 messages all together. My wife responded once that our child would like that.

I saw the Tuesday texts after my wife went to sleep. I went to work having had no chance to discuss it with my wife because she had to go to a event, the details of which I am leaving out because I want to maintain anonymity and those details can be sumarized sufficiently by saying my wife went with her mom and there was nothing to be suspicious about it.



> She needs to cut him out of her life. She may or may not be contacting him in other ways. But cut this off now. Feel free to tell this guy to cease and desist but you need to get your wife to shut it down first. You do want to start monitoring activities.


done and done. Even before I had this suspicion. I'm monitoring, and I'm doing it openly.



> Many folks have affairs with people others think are unlikely. Does not matter in how you approach this. He is after your wife. She has not shut him down. bad sign.


If that's how it sounded, then I explained poorly.



> Stop this. Shut this down. Then start reconnecting with your wife. You cannot work on the marriage while she has this relationship. Stopp being nice about this unless you want your wife to connect with other men.


It's a tricky situation. She sought emotional support elsewhere because it wasn't coming from me. That is a sentence that describes 2 problems. 1) she sought emotional support elsewhere 2) it wasn't coming from me. Both problems needed to be adressed concurrently and that is what I did. I stopped the connection. I fixed my problems that had precluded the connection with me.

Maybe it wasn't concurrent exactly, I fixed things on Sunday from my realization I made Saturday night - at that point the connection was already shut down.



> Deal with your wife first. Make sure she shuts this down. Monitor it. If he pursues her anyway, get in his face. I do not think one can play witn this stuff. It takes urgency to shut things down. You have another person in your marriage now. Cut them out. THEN, work on your marriage.
> 
> 
> *Deal with your wife first. Make sure she shuts this down. Monitor it. If he pursues her anyway, get in his face. I do not think one can play witn this stuff. It takes urgency to shut things down. You have another person in your marriage now. Cut them out. THEN, work on your marriage.*


I guess in the end, it turns out I took your advice before I even posted here, so thanks for helping me feel reassured I am doing things the right way.


----------



## Entropy3000

WillK said:


> I want to point out that I came here today because of a very specific question I had not been able to resolve to my satisfaction through my own introspection. I've been working through the overall situation of my marriage having deteriorated for over a month, and I think my descriptions might leave readers with confusion as I describe the state of our relationship as it was a week or more ago, and the state of the relationship is different now.
> 
> My wife moving out is for more than one reason. One of those reasons is unrelated to the relationship - it's about getting her out of the house so I can wreak havoc without having to constantly clean up until the phase of the construction is appropriate. I had even been considering temporary living arrangements, although in my contemplations I'd be part of those temporary living arrangements when I wasn't working on the house. (I think that if the relationship gets fixed, it's not out of the question that I'd be part of this apartment)
> 
> My wife knows that if she was unfaithful, she'd jeoprodize custody in a divorce. Whatever our problems are, that is something she's always been aware of and it is all the motivation she needs (and she needs no reminders) to not become involved with another man.
> 
> I am sure we will need to work through underlying issues. Her sister suspected unfaithfulness. I suspected it. Her mom suspected it. That kind of pressure was enough that she cut off the friendship because she didn't want that kind of pressure.
> 
> The point about being single is valid. *I hope I've explained why I don't need to worry about competing with another man.* I do need to compete with her being single.
> 
> Michigan divorce law requires a minimum of 6 months before even an uncontested divorce will be processed. Even in the degraded state our relationship was, she has motivation to not jeopardize her role in our children's life by staying away from a relationship with another man.
> 
> More to come in response to the other post.


No bother for a response my friend. The advice was for your benefit. You do not need to justify yourself to anyone.

That said, no matter how this is spun, you cannot work on a relationship while you are separated. 

Everything in life has context. How amazing that you feel what you told us was totally wrong. The suggestions you got were based on what you said.
But as most folks suggested you needed to not confront the OM but deal with this with your wife first.

When you mentioned my name I thought ... Ok so this guy is going to bait and switch us like so many try to do. Why you wish to blow off your wifes EA idunno. Not a good idea. So do you have a pre-nup in place that states that she would put her custody at risk?

No you have not explained why you should not be concerend about another man. Maybe one of the other posters gets it and can enlighten the rest of us. I have not seen anything in any of your posts that does not scream there are multiple serious issues here. Which one is the biggest threat at the moment is hard to say. It is great thought that you got that affair taken care of in such a short time. It usually takes a tad more effort. You went from a thread about an EA, to your wife leaving you, to having it all pulled together with help of relatives in one afternoon.
Awesome.

I see in a later post you were not actually posting about a situation today but were telling a story that you did not want to share fully for some reason. We see this a lot. Who knows why people do this?

Good luck.


----------



## WillK

I didn't mean to say I felt like I had explained fully why I'm not worried about the other guy.. I just wasn't repeating myself. There's more to it than I could explain. 

By no means did this run its course in just an afternoon. Affairs are symptoms of an underlying problem. 

In 2006, just as our second child was about to be born, I lost my job due to the economic downturn. People nationally think the economic downturn happenned later. Detroit collapsed ahead of the rest of the nation. For the first time in my career, it was hard to get another job. We had to relocate out of state. This was the start of a series of life challenges, and I took on the role of provider and neglected my role as emotional connection for my wife. It took all those years for the relationship to become that which it became.

The real change that was needed has only been a few days old. I could've prevent the apartment if I'd made that epiphany a few weeks sooner.

Oh and if this is a situation that seems to have changed rapidly, then I think maybe you have a sense of what it was like with the therapist we tried 4 sessions with over the past month.


----------



## Maricha75

WillK said:


> I didn't mean to say I felt like I had explained fully why I'm not worried about the other guy.. I just wasn't repeating myself. There's more to it than I could explain.
> 
> By no means did this run its course in just an afternoon. Affairs are symptoms of an underlying problem.
> 
> In 2006, just as our second child was about to be born, I lost my job due to the economic downturn. People nationally think the economic downturn happenned later. Detroit collapsed ahead of the rest of the nation. For the first time in my career, it was hard to get another job. We had to relocate out of state. This was the start of a series of life challenges, and I took on the role of provider and neglected my role as emotional connection for my wife. It took all those years for the relationship to become that which it became.
> 
> The real change that was needed has only been a few days old. I could've prevent the apartment if I'd made that epiphany a few weeks sooner.
> 
> *Oh and if this is a situation that seems to have changed rapidly, then I think maybe you have a sense of what it was like with the therapist we tried 4 sessions with over the past month.*


I have to say this... if you explained things to the therapist the way you have here, I can actually picture his/her head spinning with the information.

The thing is, I have no clear idea what exactly you were wanting to know. Your wife moved out, or is moving out, for reasons unrelated to an EA that may or may not be occurring. Honestly, while that may not be THE reason, in the back of her mind, it is a factor. You THINK there is nothing to worry about regarding this man because all texts that you saw were generic, friendly, kid related. The thing is, you don't now what those DELETED texts say. Whether she moved out for house renovations or whatever... the point is, you are separated. It gives her the opportunity because you won't always be around. I really don't understand why you can't move into this apartment WITH your wife. It makes no sense. But, it is your life. Your choices. You believe she won't/wouldn't actually have an affair of any kind... I didn't think *I* would either... nor did I think *my husband* would. I guess, all I can offer is to keep your eyes open. Kinda hard to do when you are separated tho. =/


----------



## iheartlife

WillK said:


> Affairs are symptoms of an underlying problem.


No one could possibly argue with this.

The issue I have when I read your story is that you blame yourself enormously for the choices your wife has made.

I can relate to that, because I truly am the primary reason our marriage became so vulnerable that my husband chose to confide in a co-worker about his marriage. She was in an unhappy marriage also, and one thing led to another. Pretty soon she was his "soulmate" and "best friend in the whole world."

We are now fully recommitted and reconciling. I changed--and not overnight. It took me years to change to the point where I could be a good spouse. This was because of my own issues that I had to overcome. In that sense, I was lucky he was still around to benefit from those changes.

So, with that ability to relate to you somewhat (your secret background story of more infidelity (?), perhaps on your part (?) notwithstanding), I am very confused by your story. I am trying to understand

--why you feel you must defend separating from your wife--again, her ostensible reason, with which you seem to agree, is for her to learn to be 'independent'--I just don't get this one at all--and the whole "we need to fix the house" thing--if your marriage were good and stable, that would be one thing--but it is very vulnerable right now from the things that YOU have told us

--why you think your wife won't be vulnerable to entering a secret EA while she's apart from you so much.

How is she going to cut him out of her life? He's apparently not too far away, and his kid(s) attend the same school, if I understood you correctly. So they stop texting each other--there are plenty of ways to work around that.

I find it odd that you rely on divorce / custody law as proof she would never take this further. Why bother posting in the first place if you were so certain about this? I just have to say, when someone is in an EA (and my husband was in up to his hairline), you aren't analyzing whether you live in a no-fault state that favors dads, or what have you.

I am puzzled that your takeaway is that you need to communicate better with your wife. We ALL need to communicate better with our spouses, all the time, that is a truism. How you will accomplish that with her living apart is beyond me.


----------



## WillK

Maricha75 said:


> I have to say this... if you explained things to the therapist the way you have here, I can actually picture his/her head spinning with the information.
> 
> The thing is, I have no clear idea what exactly you were wanting to know. Your wife moved out, or is moving out, for reasons unrelated to an EA that may or may not be occurring. Honestly, while that may not be THE reason, in the back of her mind, it is a factor. You THINK there is nothing to worry about regarding this man because all texts that you saw were generic, friendly, kid related. The thing is, you don't now what those DELETED texts say. Whether she moved out for house renovations or whatever... the point is, you are separated. It gives her the opportunity because you won't always be around. I really don't understand why you can't move into this apartment WITH your wife. It makes no sense. But, it is your life. Your choices. You believe she won't/wouldn't actually have an affair of any kind... I didn't think *I* would either... nor did I think *my husband* would. I guess, all I can offer is to keep your eyes open. Kinda hard to do when you are separated tho. =/


THe moving in I'm hoping will maybe happen once the relationship heals. It would not be realistic to expect it to happen the first day she moves spends in the apartment, which will be this Saturday, when it's less than a week after the relationship turned around. Miracles could happen, but I'm not going to get them to happen by pushing because it has to be her idea.

Here's the thing we actually need to get through with the therapist. Our relationship has been more like father-daughter than husband wife. She's done the growth she needed from the father-daughter relationship, that relationship NEEDS to end. We need to start a new husband-wife relationship.


----------



## Maricha75

WillK said:


> *THe moving in I'm hoping will maybe happen once the relationship heals. It would not be realistic to expect it to happen the first day she moves *spends in the apartment, which will be this Saturday, when it's less than a week after the relationship turned around. Miracles could happen, but I'm not going to get them to happen by pushing because it has to be her idea.
> 
> Here's the thing we actually need to get through with the therapist. Our relationship has been more like father-daughter than husband wife. She's done the growth she needed from the father-daughter relationship, that relationship NEEDS to end. We need to start a new husband-wife relationship.


I still don't see how the relationship can possibly improve when you are not there. In order for her to see you in the husband-wife relationship, and not the father-daughter relationship, you need to be there AS her husband. Not a boyfriend who is there sometimes, but her husband, who is there to talk to, to hold, to hug, etc. Maybe I'm naive, but it just makes no sense to me.


----------



## WillK

iheartlife said:


> So, with that ability to relate to you somewhat (your secret background story of more infidelity (?), perhaps on your part (?) notwithstanding), I am very confused by your story. I am trying to understand


That part is just not something I'd comeout and say out of respect for her desire to keep it between ourselves. I'll say that I was never disloyal. But in retrospect, some of my shortcomings then that led to that situation are shortcomings that are the same as the present situation.



> --why you feel you must defend separating from your wife--again, her ostensible reason, with which you seem to agree, is for her to learn to be 'independent'--I just don't get this one at all--and the whole "we need to fix the house" thing--if your marriage were good and stable, that would be one thing--but it is very vulnerable right now from the things that YOU have told us


Let's put it this way. We bought this house for less than what my truck cost. This was 2 years ago. I spent 3 months doing the roof, myself, before we moved in. I rewired the house because it is a miracle that the 90+ year old jury-rigged wiring that was in the house had not burnt the house down. The sewer pipes were draining into the crawlspace. Since resolving these issues, I've been dealing with significant structural problems and the complete absence of a foundation.

My next projects will leave the crawlspace open to the rodents in our neighborhood - our first year here, we had a death count of 15 rats. I'll be tearing away floor and wall to completely reconfigure the floor plan.

As it was, my wife had a hard time dealing with the dirt and dust that tracked and blew in from the crawlspace when I worked on the house.

As I say, the goal will be to heal the relationship so the apartment is a safe haven the whole family including me can share while the work is going on.


----------



## iheartlife

WillK said:


> Here's the thing we actually need to get through with the therapist. Our relationship has been more like father-daughter than husband wife. She's done the growth she needed from the father-daughter relationship, that relationship NEEDS to end. We need to start a new husband-wife relationship.


:iagree: That is one thing that I totally agree with, 1000%.


----------



## WillK

Maricha75 said:


> I still don't see how the relationship can possibly improve when you are not there. In order for her to see you in the husband-wife relationship, and not the father-daughter relationship, you need to be there AS her husband. Not a boyfriend who is there sometimes, but her husband, who is there to talk to, to hold, to hug, etc. Maybe I'm naive, but it just makes no sense to me.


One step at a time. Therapist appointment starts next Thursday. If nothing else,that's where relationship repair will take place.


----------



## iheartlife

WillK said:


> One step at a time. Therapist appointment starts next Thursday. If nothing else,that's where relationship repair will take place.


Are you going to bring up this man in therapy? Not on the first day--you seem bent on discussing other things--but at some point soon.


----------



## Maricha75

WillK said:


> *That part is just not something I'd comeout and say out of respect for her desire to keep it between ourselves.* I'll say that I was never disloyal. But in retrospect, some of my shortcomings then that led to that situation are shortcomings that are the same as the present situation.


Ok, I can understand not telling anyone on this board... but I would hope the therapist will hear about it. You may not have been disloyal, but whatever it was, based on the way it has been hinted, needs to be addressed with the therapist.

As for my other post, sorry, I just can't wrap my head around NOT being there... even if the relationship wasn't in a husband-wife manner... still makes no sense to leave that door wide open. :scratchhead:


----------



## jnj express

Her friend is way out of bounds in all his texting to your wife---she is a married woman, with kids, and he knows it----whether you/your wife want to admit it or not---HE IS PURSUING HER

You can read here, and in every other website, like this about PUA's who pursue, pursue, pursue till they get what they want

Your wife, will now be on her own, with time to kill and believe you me---the texting/contacting will increase monumentally---and where there may have been resolve up to now on her part----she does not have a H., there in front of her, to remind her to stay out of trouble ( not that you were speaking to her about the texting, you were just THERE)

I might suggest you contact her friend---and tell him to stop contacting your wife completely, if he balks/refuses/gets snotty, tell him fine---you will see him in court----he is open to a tort civil action for INTENTIONAL INFLICTION OF EMOTIONAL DISTRESS!!!!!!!


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## eowyn

OP, I read all the your posts on this thread however couldn't figure out if your wife is moving out because:
(a) She needs to be more independent 
(b) You need to remodel the house
(c) Both of you need to fix relationship issues
(d) All of the above

You mention lot of times that she needs to be more "independent", however looking at your post below it seems to me that she is already quite independent. Looks like she is doing a lot of things independently even now (probably does not like to order pizza for some reason, but other than that looks like she is doing lot of things).. don't you think?



WillK said:


> She's taking on Saturday work to pay for the apartment rent, *already working Thursday and Friday*, she _*goes to the gym*_, she'll have to do groceries cleaning and laundry in the time the kids are away, and _*she often volunteers*_ and/or _*has marathon events*_ that take up the whole day Saturday. (_*She works for her mom's business*_,


As someone already pointed out, if remodelling is the issue why don't you move in with your wife in the apt at least partially. Right now you are able to keep an eye on OM's texts. That will not be an option with the new apt. What is your therapist's take on the new apt thing? I hear you have a counselling next week. Don't you think you should consult with the therapist *before *she moves out?

As for the OM I am confused. Your opinion on OM seems to fluctuate, as in... in some posts it seems you find him innocent and someone who can be befriended, while in other posts you mention he constantly texts and is trying to get your wife's attention. I don't know what you think about the OM, however one thing I can say, is that this guy actually has a nickname for your wife, and your wife still texts him back? Don't you think it is inappropriate and it is more of 'flirting' than 'texting'?



WillK said:


> But he has a nickname for her "freckles" (she's a redhead)


The other thing I could not get a context on, is why and when is it that your wife's mom and sis suspected unfaithfulness on the part of your wife. There needs to be a reason behind it (maybe you are not comfortable disclosing it which is okay)... however makes me thing, why do you trust her so much at this point of time where you seem to reason with yourself that 'staying in a separate apt is okay and can be good for your relationship'. 



WillK said:


> Her sister suspected unfaithfulness. I suspected it. Her mom suspected it. That kind of pressure was enough that she cut off the friendship because she didn't want that kind of pressure.


How long does she plan to stay in the apt. Is there a timeline? Are you going to get a key for this apt? How does this work?


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## WillK

eowyn said:


> OP, I read all the your posts on this thread however couldn't figure out if your wife is moving out because:
> (a) She needs to be more independent
> (b) You need to remodel the house
> (c) Both of you need to fix relationship issues
> (d) All of the above


It is absolutely D all of the above.



> You mention lot of times that she needs to be more "independent", however looking at your post below it seems to me that she is already quite independent. Looks like she is doing a lot of things independently even now (probably does not like to order pizza for some reason, but other than that looks like she is doing lot of things).. don't you think?


The issue is not by any means whether she is capable of being independent. This point could be a whole other discussion, and one which will probably be better directed by a professional therapist than lay people or even ourselves. Her problem might be that she is addicted to using me as a crutch. I think I understand the issue better than I can explain it.



> As someone already pointed out, if remodelling is the issue why don't you move in with your wife in the apt at least partially. Right now you are able to keep an eye on OM's texts. That will not be an option with the new apt. What is your therapist's take on the new apt thing? I hear you have a counselling next week. Don't you think you should consult with the therapist *before *she moves out?


If the remodelling is the only issue, I probably would be moving in. It's not the only issue. My wife is hyper-focussed on A and/or C. Those will take more than this week to fix but less than 6 months, so I'm hopeful that when the therapy progresses enough that the remodelling is the only issue, then we'll mutually agree to get back together living in the apartment.

I'll still be able to watch the bill online for activity. She is not getting a phone, she will only be using the cell phone.

Couseling is starting as soon as it can.. It's been difficult finding a therapist that is in-network for our insurance which isn't an industry leader. The essential element in her wanting me to live with her is she has to miss me. Even if I could get an appointment today, the first appointment is going to be the therapist assessing our situation, solving problems rarely starts in the first session in my experience.





> As for the OM I am confused. Your opinion on OM seems to fluctuate, as in... in some posts it seems you find him innocent and someone who can be befriended, while in other posts you mention he constantly texts and is trying to get your wife's attention. I don't know what you think about the OM, however one thing I can say, is that this guy actually has a nickname for your wife, and your wife still texts him back? Don't you think it is inappropriate and it is more of 'flirting' than 'texting'?


I've had a lot of confusion. I've been describing the progression in the past. When I started posting here yesterday, I had history that gave me cause to feel uncertain as to whether it was a non-issue. I didn't know it at the time either, but by the time I started posting here it was already a non-issue.



> The other thing I could not get a context on, is why and when is it that your wife's mom and sis suspected unfaithfulness on the part of your wife. There needs to be a reason behind it (maybe you are not comfortable disclosing it which is okay)... however makes me thing, why do you trust her so much at this point of time where you seem to reason with yourself that 'staying in a separate apt is okay and can be good for your relationship'.


There's more to it than I can explain for reasons of time (getting ready for work) and privacy. 



> How long does she plan to stay in the apt. Is there a timeline? Are you going to get a key for this apt? How does this work?


It's a 6 month lease. It is what it is for the first week, beyond that there's no telling at this point.


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## iheartlife

WillK said:


> The issue is not by any means whether she is capable of being independent. This point could be a whole other discussion, and one which will probably be better directed by a professional therapist than lay people or even ourselves. Her problem might be that she is addicted to using me as a crutch. I think I understand the issue better than I can explain it.


This sounds like co-dependency, and you're right, she needs therapy to help overcome it.


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## Toffer

OK everbody, grab some popcorn, sit back and watch it burn


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## WillK

iheartlife said:


> This sounds like co-dependency, and you're right, she needs therapy to help overcome it.


I've said that myself. Technically speaking, it's not co-dependency because co-dependency would be if I was trying to keep her in a dependent state, as I understand it. Aside from that distinction, yes it is like co-dependency. It's not a problem I'm taking lightly, and with all due respect to everyone here, if I tried solving that problem here with lay people, that would be taking it lightly.


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## iheartlife

WillK said:


> I've said that myself. Technically speaking, it's not co-dependency because co-dependency would be if I was trying to keep her in a dependent state, as I understand it. Aside from that distinction, yes it is like co-dependency. It's not a problem I'm taking lightly, and with all due respect to everyone here, if I tried solving that problem here with lay people, that would be taking it lightly.


I don't think anyone would dare suggest that the forum replaces therapy (as long as the therapist is very good).

But, collectively, we have a lot of experiences with spousal betrayal (myself included, unfortunately). Those are the red flags we see peppered in your posts. You've suddenly determined that all of that was a red herring, but the reason you don't see people letting go of that is that the classic initial reaction to the warnings signs of an affair beginning is to sweep them under the rug.

I asked this in another post--are you planning on bringing up the OM in counseling?


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## WillK

iheartlife said:


> I asked this in another post--are you planning on bringing up the OM in counseling?


Oh yeah, I did mean to respond and if I forgot it's because there's just such a broad band of topics. It will be mentioned.

Just to clarify some, when we go to the new psychiatrist (I'll get back to that) next Thursday it will be the 4th counseling we've tried. Here's our history:

roughly 8 years ago (wow, it sounds so long ago to say it that way) we had counseling after events I choose to keep private. We saw a psychologist and paid out of pocket, went maybe 8 sessions, stopped by our own choosing because it was financially a strain.

2 years ago we sought counseling because of intimacy problems, the focus was "sex therapy" but restoring intimacy was the symptom of relationship problems. We were seeing a person who was a licensed social worker, and it was covered but we had a considerable amount of deductible to use up before the insurance would have actually been paying. It was cut short because we moved - it was between jobs and we anticipated a long job search and a long time to sell our house we were moving from, but those things went faster than expected. So we maybe only got to have 3 sessions, and it would've made a difference, and it did help us reconnect sexually, but it didn't get enough time to do what was needed to fix our relationship problems.

6 weeks ago when I lost my previous job, we started therapy. Out of pocket.. 4 sessions. Limited license practice or something. The therapist was as confused as everyone here - we spent the entire session each time saying what the issues have been since the last session, the therapist didn't find the common thread to find the root cause let alone guide us in fixing the issues. It stopped because my wife felt it was a waste of time, and it was.

The next therapist is in-network so we'll be covered, and he's a psychiatrist. Actually, in-network with the insurance we have is very constraining. Several I tried to contact didn't return my call. One that responded indicated that she was soon going to be discontinuing participation with my insurance. This psychiatrist seems to be a good fit, though, as he's experienced and his information indicates he does look at talk as a first line and medication as a last resort.

I'm positive about the fact we'll be seeing a psychiatrist as well.. My wife takes anxiety medication, but she's only ever seen a general practice doc for that and frankly our GP doc pretty much prescribes because based on patient direction, and it just doesn't feel like he brings expertise into the prescribing process.


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## danielria

About three weeks ago I caught my wife talking to a past boyfriend. I confronted her with this and she told me all about it. She said that she looked him up to talk about something that happened in the past. She admitted to having an emotional affair with this man. She also said that she visited with him once and that they did in fact kiss. She said that she got caught up in the moment because she told him about her desire to have a baby. He told her that he would be a donor for her if I didn't want to do it.
The problem is that my wife is going through menopause. She had approached me several months ago wanting to try and have a baby. My wife has never been able to have a child of her own and would require using an egg donor and IVF (me and another female's egg). 
Well, I feel that some of this is my fault because I would not listen to her. She shut me out and went looking for someone that would listen to her. She claims that nothing sexual happened between her and this guy, but I can’t get this thought out of my head. How do I know for sure if she’s telling me the truth?
I have never had to doubt this woman in the almost 20 years that we have been married. Is there anyone out there that can help me get past this? I had agreed to go to the IVF clinic with her and do this. But the very next day I caught her talking to this guy. I have not been an easy person to live with and we have not had time to spend with one another because of me being in school and her working too much.
I love this woman with all my heart! In fact, I have never loved any woman like I do her. We have two kids that we adopted and I don’t want to lose my family. Still, the thought of her having an emotional affair is bad enough, and the idea of her having had sex with this guy is still in my head.
I can’t sleep at night and I have lost 12 lbs in the past two weeks because I can’t even eat. Can anyone offer me some help? I feel like a ping pong ball and the match has no end. If I leave, I will lose her and my family. If I stay, then I am going to have to live with the thought that she might have had sex with this guy. I have never had to worry about her in the past. I know that she loves me and I know that I love her. Well, I hope that someone can be of some sort of help to me! Thanks!


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## iheartlife

danielria, you will want to open up your own thread.

What you can do is open up a second tab in your web browser, go to the talk about marriage forum, and then I'd choose the Coping with Infidelity forum.

Then, keeping this thread open that we are in right now, I'd copy the text you just typed up. Then I'd go back to the other tab (Coping with Infidelity forum) and in the upper left, just above "Threads in Forum" you will see a button that says "new thread." Click that and then paste the text you copied.

------------------

To answer your question more directly, get the book Not Just Friends by Shirley Glass. It's an excellent, excellent book that explains emotional affairs like no other because Glass was a nationally recognized researcher in infidelity and her book summarized her knowledge and learning.

What you are seeing is that your wife has become infatuated with her ex. She is experiencing it as "love" because the emotion is that sensation of falling in love. It is very powerful and she will continue to contact him unless you draw a line in the sand. 

You are saying you did not listen to her when she was expressing a deeply felt wish. That obviously is a tough thing and now she's gone (very inappropriately, in a very selfish way) to get that need fulfilled outside of marriage. There are likely things that you will need to do to improve the communications between you, and that will almost surely require good-quality pro-marriage counseling.

However, that cannot happen before she fully ends contact with this man. That would involve her writing a No Contact message that you supervise and oversee the sending (there are formats on the forum). That is creating a definitive break and ending ritual of their contact, an acknowledgment that it's inappropriate and it has to end FOREVER with no "but you'll always be in my heart"s or "I'm still thinking of you no matter what happens" etc. That just keeps the door open to contact him again and again.

Until she ends it with him (and you will need to continue to verify it for a bit, because infatuation is so strong), you have 3 people in the marriage and counseling and changing won't work.


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## PRelationships

One of the greatest marital problems I would have to say is no communication or the lack of it. Many times we talk but we do not listen. We do selectively listening, that is, we only take in what we want to hear. Why? Maybe because we think it is not important. Or the issue is too massive to handle. So we pretend its not there or its not so serious. We hide underneath the pillow hoping the problem will go away. Well, the reality is, its not going to go away. 

If you seriously want to get your wife back, you will have to take action straight away. It begins with your thoughts. From my experience, many marriages which seem doomed, actually survived. I believe marriages can be salvaged. If you really love your wife, you could consider putting your wife's needs above others. It says to her, she is important and valued.

Commit to each other by making a decision in advance that in the event of problems arising in the marriage, you will make reconciliation your priority.

Spend time with each other. You mentioned that you both are too busy. Well, healthy relationships take time to grow, so spend time doing things together. Go on dates again, make it fun! Play and laugh together...

Hope my suggestions can help you in some way. Do get help though if you are at a lost on what to do because it can be really overwhelming..


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## WillK

Out of all the stories like mine, why does this new poster choose my thread from nearly 5 months ago to jump in?


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