# How to live with passive-aggressive spouse long term?



## VeggieMom

I come here looking for advice and support. I am in a place where I feel stuck and I just need to learn to endure and find joy in a difficult situation. I am interested in hearing from others who have made this choice and what they do to make their home life and personal life as happy as possible in spite of living with a very difficult spouse.

We have been married for 15+ years. It started out very nice of course, but within weeks I saw warning signs of what I now know is passive aggressive behavior. My husband was sexually abused as a child by a friend of the family. He lived in a family and culture where emotions were not encouraged to be expressed, obedience and respect to parents was the law, and everyone is supposed to just pretend all is well no matter what. He never told his parents about the abuse.

My husband is at heart a good person. He has been 100% faithful to me, remained employed, our children know he loves them very much, he his honest and never had problems with substance abuse, gambling, etc. He is charming and everyone thinks he's so nice and I'm so lucky to have him as my spouse. He has a hard time saying no to others, again part of how he was raised. 

Some of the warning signs that I saw in the beginning was the cold shoulder, disrespecting my requests and then when I told him I felt sad about it, he blew me off with "lighten up" or "what's the big deal?" Promises that were forgotten, putting up roadblocks, flipping the blame when I tried to talk to him about something, and other maddening things. I first thought there was something wrong with me. He would make me so mad and frustrated I would blow up and then he would tell me I had an anger problem, didn't need to shout, etc. 

Some examples of this are:
1) I requested he not use my bath towel, that we have separate towels. He continued for years to "forget" and use my towel. I tried color coding, initials, separate racks, etc, but he always "forgot" or said what was the big deal. Now I just get a new towel every time and have a lot of laundry.

2) Went on vacation with promises and plans to see some certain scenic places. Met friends there and he decided to spend all his time with the guys and never did take me to see the scenic places. And, because I didn't have my name on the car rental agreement, I could not drive myself to those places.

3) Forced me to live with broken things around the house. Neither of us is handy with things like this so I asked if we can hire someone. He said no, he will fix it. But he didn't. I lived for weeks with two broken toilets, one was flushed with buckets of water, one didn't work at all. Finally hired a plumber and he gave me a hard time about the cost. Also lived without a working dishwasher for about a year because we could not afford a new one (single income family at the time). And yet he found room to donate a few *hundred* dollars a month to a religious organization, without my blessing. I finally got my new dishwasher after I told him my hands were cracked (I have eczema) and I was going to get paper plates and cups, disposable baby bottles, and save the pots and pans for him to do because I just could not do it anymore. Within a month we had the new dishwasher.

4) Does not communicate well with me which causes endless frustration. Example I signed the kids up for a sports class on a weeknight, one night a week only. In the past he had taken them to the class. The first three weeks of the class he said he would take them, but then at the last minute he came home saying he couldn't- once he wasn't feeling well- I can understand that. Twice he said he wanted go to the gym instead. Each time he said he would take them next week and of course did not. So today is the fourth week and I now assume he's not taking them again, and don't even bother to ask for fear of entering into another argument. So he comes home and says he's taking them after I was all ready with keys in hand to take them myself.

5) Criticizes things and complains constantly and it makes me go insane. Complains about the mess and clutter but does not offer to help pick it up. Criticizes me for having too much stuff, not being organized enough, using too many pots and pans when I cook a meal. I bought a card table and set up a jigsaw puzzle on it so I can watch TV and he complained that the table was ugly. I can't relax and be myself in my own home. And it's not a messy home, just a lived-in home with two kids and two working adults.

6) If I bring up any controversial topic, even if I set aside a time we can both talk, and we sit down in a quiet place and I tell him my concerns using the "I feel" method, with the goal being to find a solution, he finds a way to flip the conversation around to being my fault and then feel the need to defend myself. He also interrupts me constantly or shows with body language that he is not interested (sighing, looking at watch, opening a magazine).

7) Spends endless time on the computer. Says he's doing "important work" and sometimes he is indeed doing his work from home, but other times he just disappears into the bedroom with snack and remains on the computer watching movies or whatever.

8) Would never think of taking me on a date. Ever. Finds ways to sabotage any plans we agree on. Like insisting that on date night, he needs to go to the gym first, which means he's not home until 8:30 PM. Forgetting our date nights and when he realizes he's forgotten he insists on doing whatever plans he's made instead. If we end up going on the date and having a nice time, or being intimate (which is very very rare) he will act grumpy, pick fights or push me away emotionally the next day.

9) Gets me gifts that hurt, or nothing at all. Past years for Christmas I have received: a newspaper ad for a bedroom set I wanted, with promises to buy "someday" and never did. A gift card to Home Depot, which matched the one he got my step-father which was bought Christmas Eve after he forgot he was supposed to give him a gift. Many occasions I got nothing at all. Valentine's Day is a "stupid holiday."

10) I have asked him many times over the years to please let me know if he goes to the grocery store after work, in case I need some things. He will "forget" to call me and come home with bags of groceries and then I have to make a separate trip which is a huge time-waster. Or, if I send him with a list he will forget several things on the list. If I underline that I want two of something for a recipe or whatever, he will come home with one and say, "But I thought one would be enough-- why do you need two?" He feigns innocence and says he forgot, but it happens 90% of the time, so I feel he is doing it on purpose.

11) We have attempted many times to share the housework including schedules and calendars and such. He agrees on it. I even let him pick what he wants to do and I take the rest. He then neglects the housework and when I remind him he lists about 10 things he had to do instead. I have tried letting it sit and get dirtier but after a month the bathroom needs cleaning, and I will end up doing it myself. With no comments from him for a noticeably cleaner bathroom.

Recent argument as an example: I had a box of legos the kids didn't want anymore. Asked H (hubby) if he wanted them for his nephew the next time he visits. He said yes, absolutely. Legos had been sitting in the livingroom in a box for over a week. I put the box near his side of the bed. He put the box back in the livingroom. I said I didn't want the box in the livingroom, can he find a place to store it? I suggested the garage or his side of the closet (we have a small house and space is limited). He said the livingroom was already a cluttered mess as usual, so it would not hurt to have the box there. I said I was trying to clean up the livingroom, could he put it somewhere else if he wanted it? Otherwise I can donate it to Goodwill if we don't have room and buy more legos for nephew later. He said no, it can stay in the livingroom. I said how about the garage? He said he would sort through the legos "later" and decide if he wants them or which ones he wants. I said I really, really don't want the box in the livingroom anymore. I suggest the garage again. He says he needs to organize the garage first to make room for legos. (The garage is not that disorganized or crowded). Finally I say, I don't care at this point if you want the legos or not, I just don't want it in the livingroom, and if it stays in there I will donate it to Goodwill in two days. He accuses me of pressuring him into something he's not ready to deal with, and calls me a bully. I walk away in tears of frustration and anger. The legos get donated to Goodwill two days later. I get the cold shoulder for several days and passive aggressive behavior, and accusations that I have gotten rid of a perfectly good box of legos that he could have given his nephew.

I realized somewhere along the way that although I do have my faults too, this marriage and the way it has turned out is because I am trying way harder than he has. We have tried counseling but he won't do the homework. Or he only does it to convince me to stay a little longer when I'm about to pack my bags and leave, and then I resolve to give him another chance and he promises to make changes, and then usually two weeks later things are bad again. 

I don't love him anymore. I think he can be a decent person to others, to our children, to society as a whole. He just is not good to me or for me. We have not had sex in months and I honestly don't miss it because it's hard to be intimate with someone who hurts you emotionally so much. Sex is based on trust and love.

I have seriously thought about leaving many times. But I have come to the conclusion that it's not the right choice right now. If I had unlimited funds, yeah maybe I would do that. But I choose to work part time so I can be there for the kids because they need me right now and I enjoy my relationship with them immensely. They are what keep me going, and I am a good mom and my kids and I are very close. We are invested in our home and in a good financial place right now that we can afford classes for the kids, braces, good health insurance, and planning for retirement and kids college. If I were to divorce I would have to work full time again and we could not afford to live as comfortably as we do now. Having lived on a single income for 10 years as a stay at home mom before I got my current job, it was a real struggle to make ends meet and now we are doing better. 

Divorce is not always the right answer. Maybe someday I will get divorced when the kids are out of the house, but right now is not the time. I dream of one day having a nice little peaceful home and surrounded by children and grandchildren, and no sulking sourpuss cold shouldered husband to dampen my mood.

But for now, I need to learn to live in this difficult situation and maintain my sanity, and not lose myself in the process. I need to find ways to not have him get under my skin and cause me to lose my temper and get so incredibly frustrated and walk around with that bad feeling in the pit of my stomach whenever he's in the room. We still need to sometimes communicate about things in regards to running the household and I need to be able to accomplish that without it turning into an unproductive, time-wasting, emotionally draining argument.

I want to hear from those who are or were in my situation and get some advice on how to maintain the status quo for now. I appreciate your support. And please do not tell me to get a divorce-- as I said I have given this lots of thought and it's just not what I choose to do right now.


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## AVR1962

I could have written your post. I have been married 21 years and have been with husband for over 24. I noticed some odd behavior in the beginning, our relationship seemed very one-sided and I was concerned. I took my concerns to a counselor I knew and she even then without meeting with him told me that he was passive-aggressive and warned me not to get involved, she told me this would be the most difficult relationship I ever became involved with. But I thought I could handle it and did not heed the warnings which I have regretted numerous times.

Like you, I work part-time and have chose this so I could raise our children. The youngest will be entering her senior year in high school this year and in my heart I want out afterwards. So I understand why you have stayed despite all the pain and frustration. They can even be nice at times but never emotionally available.

Your question is how to make it work. Over the years I have bit by bit distanced myself form him and his behavior. I used to try and get everything in the open and corrected but it just caused huge fights and I would always be the one blamed, he could not look at his own actions. I stopped even caring to get these issues cleared up just to avoid the inevitable. Perhaps not healthy but it was not resolving anything.

We have been to so much counseling, you cannot even imagine. I counselor of mine that also counseled us together told me he was passive-aggressive and would never change. She suggested I get out of the marriage and save myself as he would never change. I know she is right and I know he will be no different with anyone else.

We too do not have sex or any intimacy.....I had been the initiator mostly, he has always been distant. Oh he loves sex but is not comfortable with the relationship you have to have that builds to intimacy so I have lived without and he takes care of his own needs.

My focus has been my kids, my career, my home, things I enjoy like gardening and spending time with my friends. When I think of going on a vacation I don't think of doing this with him....I think of going with a friend or a family member. When I want to go out for dinner, same thing, and I do it. I live my life and he lives his. 

I no longer let him blame me. I don't try to clear things up but for example just recently the family was in the car and two kids were complaining on how slow husband was driving. Husband says, "I do or 'someone' complains that they are getting car sick." I just said, with no emotion, "You like to drive the speed limit," He then says, "well, I don't want to get a ticket." We live in Europe where there are no highway patrol cars pulling cars over for speeding. I said, "oh, is some cop waiting for you behind a bush? You forget we live in Europe and there are no highway patrol cars here." He shut his mouth. The stuff he says is redundant and I just put it back on him.

I recently got upset over a stupid move he made in traffic and I told him it was stupid, we nearly were hit. Rather than admitting how stupid his choice was he gets mad at me for using the word stupid. He became silent, I could see the anger brewing, this is when he gets vindictive because he is going to make me pay the price for hurting him. I ignore his silent pout anymore and that's what I did this time too. These are his issues, not mine and I will not go there emotionally with him. His thought process is real and he really does see me as the one hurting him, it is so ingrained in his being. After a week of his bad mood I told him that I realized he was angry at me saying his actions were stupid but that rather than feelings sorry for himself maybe he needed to look at how he could have done things differently and simply admitted it was a poor choice. I told him then we would not have went thru a week of his pouting silence. I didn't get emotional and I did not try to get him to understand. I just simply started it and left it.

Basically you have to change your approach with him. I have had to emotionally withdraw, to a point where I do not care.

If I could walk out today and not have the hassle I would but I know he will be very hateful. Passive-aggressive cling to the person they blame. What I mean, is they are dependent on that person in many ways and they place this blame on the person they are closest to which is normally their spouse.

When this recent counselor told me that husband was PA and he read things about the PA that he identified with he mentioned something to his sister who told him that if anyone was PA it was me. I know if I leave there will be even more blame and hostility that I will have to deal with. I will have to find a way to completely separate myself from the attacks.

I wish you all the best. Do find your own interests and the things you like to do with friends or family or by yourself, it does help.


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## VeggieMom

AVR1962 thank you so much for taking the time to reply to my very long post! I also appreciate your examples and your suggestions. 

I am mourning the loss of the marriage that could have been, trying to accept what is. I have been depressed over this for years and with the efforts put in to trying to improve this relationship I could have probably gotten a double PhD! I am reading more and more about PA people and it all fits him. I have poured out all of my heart into this marriage until I have nothing left to give. It's very sad. I think he has no idea what has gone wrong, he honestly does not see how hurtful he is even when I tell him clearly what he did that hurt me. 

I need to find ways to set boundaries without him flipping the conversation back on me and me ending up frustrated and being blamed for something. At this point I don't care about being friends or healing the relationship. I just want to have a functional conversation.

I also mourn the loss of a partner who can help with the maintenance of our home, decorating, and personalizing it. He criticizes the paint colors but won't come up with any of his own suggestions when I ask him. When I start to paint he tells me, "Don't ask me to help. This is your project and I don't think we need to paint." So, I just hold my head up high and complete the projects myself. When I got my part time job a couple of years ago I hired a gardener to come. Of course H had some things to say about it, but he never would consistently help with yard work. When I asked him to mow the grass in the back yard (even offered to take turns) he said, "I didn't want grass in the first place. I thought a gravel landscaping was just fine. The grass was your choice so you mow it." So now it's my grass and I pay someone to mow it. And I love my green grass!

I am lacking friends. I used to have lots of friends but I got very depressed and lost contact with most of them. I also started back to school to get my degree for my current job and had to drop out of life for awhile to get that done. I need to find friends again and spend time with them and get some good relationships going that are positive. 

I could totally relate to you talking about vacations by yourself. I started doing that when I got my job. I took a vacation with the kids last year and we had such a good time. They felt bad that we didn't take Daddy though. They know we have problems. But honestly it went so well and was refreshing. I am planning our next vacation already. When he went to visit his parents last year in a developing country I declined to go for the first time, and he knows why-- he totally forgets about me and the fact that I can't drive there, don't know the language, and he basically abandons me in the back bedroom minding the children and watching TV. After several miserable trips I felt so empowered to say no I was not going, and the kids were not either until they were much older and less vulnerable.

So I am making progress. I think I feel empowered that I am *choosing* to stay and that I can change my mind and leave if I need to. One reason I went back to school once my youngest entered kindergarten was so I could get a good job and support myself if I need to. He did not like me working full time but I said too bad, we need the money. He complained that he had all the extra work to do in the house. Then he complained when I decided to change to part-time instead because he started to enjoy the second income. :rofl:


You said to emotionally withdraw. I will work on that. I like to fix things but you can't make a person change unless they want to. He was scared when I left for a short time recently and he was all nice for about a week, then back to the same old thing. I know he won't change so I have to. For myself- not for him. He can go on living his miserable life but I don't have to fall into his traps anymore. I need to develop a backbone to distance myself emotionally.


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## nerdette

I to could have written the original post. I love husband, and have since I was 15. Our issue is he does not argue with me. When he is upset he is very quiet and starts texting his friends. Over the last 18 years I have lost all but basic contact with my friends. We have 2 amazing kids and we both work. He helps out around the house and drives the kids around. His hours grant him freedom that my job does not. When he is not doing those things he is working out, at home, at the boxing gym, at the crossfit gym. The longest conversation we have had is what do you want for dinner, ok I will cook it when I get home. I try to tell him I need to here that he still loves me, I get " guys don't say that" he smiles and turns away. Don't get me wrong we have fun, I just feel invisible most of the time. If I try to tell him what I need from him emotionally I get a quirky smile and silence. Am I wrong to want romance, a compliment once Ina while? I give him compliments all the time, maybe to much. I am lost lonely and confused.


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## VeggieMom

minimalME said:


> Hi VeggieMom.
> 
> I'm not married to a passive aggressive spouse, but I was raised in a very dysfunctional family, and now consider myself a recovering co-dependent.
> 
> I recommend Steve and Kim Cooper's materials, mainly because Kim was in your position and she also chose to stay. She goes into great detail about what she experienced with Steve, and how she changed _herself_ in order to address his behavior.
> 
> The validation and approval that you're looking for from your husband will now need to be discovered in yourself.
> 
> Don't ask him for permission. Do what you need to do in order to take care of you.
> 
> He doesn't respect your request to use separate towels? Give yourself the gift of a fresh towel, straight from the closet, each day.
> 
> He didn't drive you to special places during your vacation? Next time, rent a car, and drive yourself.
> 
> Won't fix things around the house? Hire someone or ask a _male_ neighbor to help you.
> 
> Don't give attitude. Don't wait for him. Don't argue.
> 
> In your specific situation, I would say - don't ask your husband more than once to do anything, because then you become the nag, and you become the problem.
> 
> Try to find local resources. Kim reached out into the community in order to have back-up and support. This included the police and other strong male figures who could come into their lives and offer the mentoring that Steve needed but never had.
> 
> This is also a great article about a woman's response to her husband when he said he wanted a divorce.
> 
> These are two examples of amazing women who had to _become_ strong and learn new tools and new dynamics to help their husbands - which ended up strengthening their entire families.


Thank you for your encouragement and resources, and I wish you continued progress on your own personal journey.


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## northernlights

Big hugs. You're not alone here--there are many of us in marriages just like yours. It's like death by a thousand paper cuts, and it's horrible, and lonely, and depressing.

I think grieving the loss of the marriage you wished you had is an important part of the process. I finally let myself do that this spring, and it's been really freeing. I fought it for a long time (by it I mean acknowledging how unhappy I was and how much my marriage wasn't what I'd thought it would be), because I operating under the idea that your "thoughts create your reality," so if I just forced myself to think of our marriage as great, it would be.

That didn't work, so I recommend skipping that one!

Over the past 6 months I have embarked on a major self-improvement project. I decided that I was going to proceed as though we were divorced and I live alone. I don't ask H to do anything for me, the kids, or the house. He is of course free to initiate doing things, but generally he doesn't.

I read The New Codependency by Melodie Beattie, which was good, and now I'm reading The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People. I love this one. I have a new job, and I'm taking total control of my life.

I've also learned about setting boundaries. "I'm not ok with that." It's my new motto. I made the boundaries about behaviors, but something magical happened, and now I feel myself suddenly not being affected by his emotions. So now, if my H says something that's thoughtless or passive-aggressive, it totally doesn't bother me. I understand that he is him and I am me, and the things he says and does don't have to change how I feel. There's a boundary between the two of us emotionally that wasn't here before.

Here's another thing that really, REALLY helped me: The Drama Triangle: The Three Roles of Victimhood - article by Dr. Lynne Namka

It's long, but it was a relationship-changer.

Like you, I'm committed to staying until my children are grown. Or at least, until they're big enough that they have a broader support network in the community and a better sense of self outside of our family, so a divorce won't be as devastating (thy're 5 and 8 now). Ideally, I'll stay 10 more years.

We'll see. Who knows, maybe my H will come on board. Maybe I won't last that long. But even though we're emotionally farther apart than ever, I'm far more at peace than I was 6 months ago, so I'm feeling much, much better.

Good luck to you. Read, read, read, see a therapist if you can, and it WILL get better.


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## trey69

Get you the book, "Living with the passive aggressive man" by Scott Wetzler. Might be helpful in giving you some tips on how to stay with someone like that if that is your plan.


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## Theseus

Veggie Mom,

You say "My husband is at heart a good person". I find it hard to correlate that with everything else you say here. I am just going to assume that he has a hell of a lot of good qualities that you haven't mentioned here. 

But no matter how good he is, I see two MAJOR red flags in your post, much more serious than the other minor arguments you mention.

1. You say you've been to marriage counseling, but he won't follow up on the recommendations. That's not the sign of a person who is committed to saving his marriage. Enough said.

2. You say you don't love him. Combined with #1 above, what is the future of this marriage? Staying with him is not only unfair to you, it's unfair to him. 

You are dead set against divorce, and looking for some magic solution to all this. But here's the uncomfortable truth: There is no easy way out. No magic pill, no quick fix. That's especially true if both of you have "checked out" of the marriage. 

BTW: my parents stayed together "for the children", and I wish they hadn't.


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## 3Xnocharm

Theseus said:


> BTW: my parents stayed together "for the children", and I wish they hadn't.


Truer words were never spoken! Do you really think that your kids are happy living with this man? I despised my father when I was a kid, and hoped every day that my mother would divorce him. She finally filed when I was 14, and all I could think was "ABOUT DAMN TIME!". Is your lifestyle really worth allowing this man to continue to disrespect you and crap all over you? 

If you choose to stay "for the kids", my suggestion is that you just forget you are married. Go dark on your husband, 180 on him. You cannot depend on him to help you, and he makes time together miserable, so just live your life as if he isnt even there. Stop making it so hard on yourself by believing things about him that arent true, he has shown you who he is, so believe him. He has proven that he has zero respect for you, so dont give him any more chances to show it.


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## VeggieMom

Theseus said:


> Veggie Mom,
> 
> You say "My husband is at heart a good person". I find it hard to correlate that with everything else you say here. I am just going to assume that he has a hell of a lot of good qualities that you haven't mentioned here.


I guess to the community at large he is a good person, productive citizen, honest, law-abiding, and so on. He also loves our kids and attempts to act in their best interests as far as helping with homework, encouraging them to pursue hobbies. Everyone loves him, thinks he's great. He was active in volunteering for a while. He's the Yes-man. I still hear quite frequently how lucky I am to have him. He's also very attractive so that ads to his appeal to others. He speaks softly and rarely yells.

There are many times when I am resentful for how well he treats them while giving me the cold shoulder at the same time. Our relationship is a burden to the children-- but being divorced would be a greater burden because he would get really difficult with anything we would have to discuss concerning the children. Not to mention financial hardships.

I have talked with the kids about it actually, and they beg us to stay together. I know they are still living in the ideal childhood world appropriate to their age. When I left a few weeks ago just to take a break, I explained that to the kids that I just needed to get away and think for awhile. The kids went back and forth between the homes as they chose and there was no pressure to make them choose who to be with. I found them saying they missed Daddy and felt sorry that he was all alone. I felt guilty and they were crying and depressed. I can go through the motions for a little longer as far as trying to make the home stay intact for them. When they are older, if they express differently, I may decide to act at that time.

One reason I guess I am hesitant about divorce is my own parents divorced when I was school aged. My mom had to start working full time and I lost her to stress and long hours. My parents fought constantly about visitation things, and they had ways to sabotage those visits. I am asthmatic and my mom would routinely not send me with my medicine so my dad would have to go and get more. Or my dad would refuse to pick me up at the last minute because something came up, and mom would have to cancel her plans she had made while we were to be with our dad. Financially it destroyed both of them and we kids felt the effects- I wore sub-standard clothing that I was embarrassed about, went a long time without much-needed braces, and lost my childhood home because it was eventually sold to make ends meet. My parents were not able to help me out with college because my college fund was eaten up in the divorce costs. They both badmouthed each other to me and made me feel guilty if I loved them and wanted to spend time with them.

I can see some of this going on with my husband and the games he plays now. Only it would be worse in many ways if we were divorced, and thousands of dollars would go towards lawyers and mediators and such. I have seen this happen to several friends and it's a constant source of grief for them.

If at some point the kids express that they would be okay with us being separated, and by some miracle I felt that my husband would be fair about it, I might consider it. But right now it would just be another distaster. 

I am learning and hope to continue learning to be strong, stand up for myself, not depend on him anymore for emotional fulfillment. And trying to improve communication skills so necessary conversations go better. I have a long way to go.


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## AVR1962

3Xnocharm said:


> Truer words were never spoken! Do you really think that your kids are happy living with this man? I despised my father when I was a kid, and hoped every day that my mother would divorce him. She finally filed when I was 14, and all I could think was "ABOUT DAMN TIME!". Is your lifestyle really worth allowing this man to continue to disrespect you and crap all over you?


Everyone's perception of any given situation is truly that, their own perception. Not to get off the OP's original subject here but in reply to this I have to point out an example and maybe this will help others understand why we sometimes stay in situations that are not always healthy with people that might always treat us well.......my first husband was a player, and I do mean a real player....it was nothing to do with the marriage itself, he could just not keep his body parts to himself. I loved him but I was not going to have 3-somes and share the man as he wished I would. He left me with $11,000 of debt and paid no child support, he told me that his girlfriend had no interest in the kids so he would not be begging me for visitation and pretty much vanished for 2 years....when he did come back into my kids' lives he then made up stories to tell them that looked bad on me and good on him, basically trying to alleviate his guilt. He moved on to his 2nd marriage and did the very same thing. Yet, one of my daughters blames me. Blames me for everything under the sun and sees anything her dad does as wonderful. So it is a chance we have to take in many cases, to lose the very thing we have worked so hard for in our lives....our children and our families, no matter the circumstance.


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## VeggieMom

If he were physically abusive it would be a deal breaker for sure. But I have had hardships in my life before, great ones, and I learned to eventually fly again. I can do so for awhile more and learn to once again find happiness in other areas of my life. I have a lot of blessings, they just don't include a wonderful spouse.


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## pink_lady

I'm so sorry you are going through this, I can relate.

Re friends, try Meetup.com to find other moms, vegetarian groups (I made an assumption from your username) etc. You can do activities with groups and find a few people you like enough to hang out with outside of the group.

I don't know what the solution is to this, but be aware that staying with your P-A husband sends a powerful message to your children. My mother is still living with my P-A father so I never had any idea what a normal man/woman relationship was or how a normal man behaved. 

I repeated the pattern with 2 almost identical P-A, negativistic, narcissistic men. I thought that's just how men were. Just left the second one a few months ago after I finally figured a bunch of stuff out, thanks partly to this site.

My brother has a mental illness, but he also started exhibiting strong P-A behavior early on.

You said your H is a good father- if that's true you and they are lucky. Being a good father is unusual for a P-A men or others who have cluster B personality disorders because they have never matured themselves and are too self-focused to care anything about the needs of others.

I guess my advice would be to try and put everything out in the open with them. My family ran on denial and it was poison.


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## deejov

minimalME said:


> Hi VeggieMom.
> 
> I'm not married to a passive aggressive spouse, but I was raised in a very dysfunctional family, and now consider myself a recovering co-dependent.
> 
> I recommend Steve and Kim Cooper's materials, mainly because Kim was in your position and she also chose to stay. She goes into great detail about what she experienced with Steve, and how she changed _herself_ in order to address his behavior.
> 
> The validation and approval that you're looking for from your husband will now need to be discovered in yourself.
> 
> Don't ask him for permission. Do what you need to do in order to take care of you.
> 
> He doesn't respect your request to use separate towels? Give yourself the gift of a fresh towel, straight from the closet, each day.
> 
> He didn't drive you to special places during your vacation? Next time, rent a car, and drive yourself.
> 
> Won't fix things around the house? Hire someone or ask a _male_ neighbor to help you.
> 
> Don't give attitude. Don't wait for him. Don't argue.
> 
> In your specific situation, I would say - don't ask your husband more than once to do anything, because then you become the nag, and you become the problem.
> 
> Try to find local resources. Kim reached out into the community in order to have back-up and support. This included the police and other strong male figures who could come into their lives and offer the mentoring that Steve needed but never had.
> 
> This is also a great article about a woman's response to her husband when he said he wanted a divorce.
> 
> These are two examples of amazing women who had to _become_ strong and learn new tools and new dynamics to help their husbands - which ended up strengthening their entire families.


:iagree:

A few books that help with PA behavior (my H is dx PA and did try some therapy) are based on self awareness, boundaries, and taking back control of your own life.

The underlying trait in a relationship with a PA person? PA behavior works BEST with someone who is co-dependent, a fixer. And does not have clear boundaries.

The same behavior applied to someone with strong confidence and boundaries would be laughed off, and they would be left all alone. 

It's key to understanding that your behavior is key to his. And you do have absolute control over YOU, so yes you can greatly affect your happiness. 

This is not the same as "making him change". At all. It's about how to find your own happiness, when you are married to someone who is maybe not capable of being a spouse.
Peace.


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## alte Dame

My H is what I would describe as mildly passive-aggressive. This behavior intensified when our children were young. He noticeably resented my planning and organization of pretty much anything in the house, even though he worked non-stop and traveled constantly. If I planned to take the children to the park on Saturday and indicated that I thought he should go, he would get visibly irritated. If I wanted to take the kids to dinner and assumed he would come along, he would get angry.

My own reading eventually was that what I thought was compromise and partnership was his feeling that I was telling him what to do & this basically permeated everything. He was fine if I just did things myself, but if I asked for his input or thought we needed to reach any sort of compromise, he would start to silently fume because he read it as my making decisions for him. He wanted everything he did to be his idea and to have his agreement, otherwise he thought he was being controlled by me.

I will say that his parents did not help the situation. They encouraged him to believe that my wanting to do things like let our toddlers open one gift on Christmas Eve rather than wait until morning was 'imposing my will on him.'

Once I realized that my seeking partnership and cooperation was his resentment because I was trying to lead him by the nose, I stopped trying to make family plans or consult him on household issues. Eventually he started to volunteer his input and now this issue is basically gone. He has grown out of it to a great degree and I am now regularly surprised when he expresses interest in working our plans out together. Too many years of the PA behavior, I guess.


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## lawrencebe

While I'm no where qualified to give any sort as advice to your situation VeggieMom, I myself am going through the same situation as you with my wife. I read both of your posts and they both were very similar to how my wife interacts with me. My wife is very passive agressive and also has signs of BPD. 

Like others have mentioned and I don't know if you've noticed even yourself but your initial post was somewhat contradicting and sent two distinct tones. One of them being how YOU SEE your husband and how HE ACTUALLY is. I often do this with my wife try to put her the brightest light possible only to be exhausted, disgusted and depressed when reality sets in, she is who she is and that's that. Regardless of how much she acts infront of others, some days are better, "she has a good heart", the fact remains these are all things WE WISH for them to truly be inside. One good thing you have already established is that you don't "love" him anymore. Whether or not that is true use that as a way to start DETACHING and not to place him on a pedestal. If you are able to become emotionless in the face of his bull then you will start feeling a little more free from his grasp of reality he's placed on you...trust me on this one.

To REALLY deal with these types of people you have to be very well grounded yourself. You can't be needy, naggy, upset, agry in natrue...etc, you need to be well rooted and firm in yourself, there's no room for wishy washy with these types. In other words if you haven't set strong boundaries (even if you have) what REAL consequences have you set if they were broke? Like many people have told me on here until you LEARN TO RESPECT YOURSELF, your spouse ultimately never will. YOU only know how much to handle and how much to take.

The situation with dish in the fridge, the towels, and the other examples is symbolic to all of your marriage. Once again while I'm no psych or anything I've learned that what we ALLOW these people to do ultimately sets the tone for the entire marriage. They have become fully accustomed to knowing that we ultimately will argue, get mad and raise a fuss, but won't leave or enact a REAL CONSEQUENCE for their behavior. 

I suggest that you set firm boundaries and learn to stick to them. That does not mean being a jerk or an a-hole about the situation either. It just means allowing yourself to not longer tolerate certain behavior. Would you take this behavior from a friend or co-worker? Also think in terms of is this really something that's a BIG issue? Making yourself be a DOORMAT is different from BEING ABLE to do something. If its something you can do than do it, if not simply say no, and let it be. Do not enable him by "WASHING THE DISH" yourself....so to speak. If you really needed the dish then okay, that's something you were ABLE TO DO as you needed it, but becoming a "nag" and harping on everything HE DOES NOT DO will further rev up the passive-aggressive behavior. L

Your other post asked for a script or how to involved with talking to these types of people. The only script or right way to talk to them is to BE FIRM and STAY CALM and don't REPEAT. It's saying what you mean and meaning what you say. Let your tone, words, and actions be your rod and shield, do not bend or break! One good piece of advice I read was to almost vision your spouse as a whiny child once they start pouting and spewing all the blame back on you. Ultimately don't exhaust yourself with trying to say the right or wrong thing. He may argue or try to blame you but ultimately you tell him in this example something like "Honey I hear you, you were tired and had a lot to do yesterday, I know it can be hard to take care of the kids while getting yourself together too, I do it everyday and know how it can be, BUT I asked you to do 123 if you continue to do ABC then XYZ will happen. I will not tolerate nor accept 456 anymore."...end of conversation. 

But it is still about choosing those battles as well. I've learned that by not ENGAGING every issue/problem that arises that I can choose to set the "emotional dial" so to speak. 

Also learn to forgive yourself for feeling the way you feel and not become so emotionally drained by HIS behavior. It's okay to be upset and be mad or frustrated but do not absorb all of the emotional stress of this marriage because that is what ultimately is happens to people like us. Our spouses know that we are truly kind, caring and loving people that somewhat have to "babysit" these types because they are unable to do it themselves. 

My information my be a lot to absorb and some stuff may or may not apply but there are some good sites to goto, that I even read daily that can help strengthen through this. I am still myself in this same situation and am still in the early process of coping myself. So keep coming here and posting...

Mind you some of these sites below are for dealing with personality disorders, the information is still useful. Here are some other good sites and books to read as well...


stop walking on eggshells - Paul T. Mason - A MUST READ

GettinBetter.com's Articles
for men who are recovering from relationships with abusive women and the non-abusive family and friends who love them | Shrink4Men - While it's a site dedicated to men the information is great
T1 How a Borderline Personality Disorder Love Relationship Evolves
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/609945-post77.html - The 180 Plan


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## AVR1962

alte Dame said:


> My H is what I would describe as mildly passive-aggressive. This behavior intensified when our children were young. He noticeably resented my planning and organization of pretty much anything in the house, even though he worked non-stop and traveled constantly. If I planned to take the children to the park on Saturday and indicated that I thought he should go, he would get visibly irritated. If I wanted to take the kids to dinner and assumed he would come along, he would get angry.
> 
> My own reading eventually was that what I thought was compromise and partnership was his feeling that I was telling him what to do & this basically permeated everything. He was fine if I just did things myself, but if I asked for his input or thought we needed to reach any sort of compromise, he would start to silently fume because he read it as my making decisions for him. He wanted everything he did to be his idea and to have his agreement, otherwise he thought he was being controlled by me.
> 
> I will say that his parents did not help the situation. They encouraged him to believe that my wanting to do things like let our toddlers open one gift on Christmas Eve rather than wait until morning was 'imposing my will on him.'
> 
> Once I realized that my seeking partnership and cooperation was his resentment because I was trying to lead him by the nose, I stopped trying to make family plans or consult him on household issues. Eventually he started to volunteer his input and now this issue is basically gone. He has grown out of it to a great degree and I am now regularly surprised when he expresses interest in working our plans out together. Too many years of the PA behavior, I guess.


Alte Dane, I find your reply very encouraging. Much of what you said describes my husband and I. He has to have the idea but he volunteers/offers nothing. We cannot plan together....if I plan he leaves it to me and then seems angry. I don't get it as I like interaction and planning together. My husband cannot even share a bag of popcorn at the theater, it's either his or mine. His family too has not helped, they see me ass the problem and the one sister especially protective of her 'lil brother. Years of hurt and frustration here. I have had to emotionally remove myself from husband and just try and accept that are lives will never be engaged. Since shutting up and not taking care of things I no longer want to be a part of he has stepped up to the plate which is nice but I still don't care for everything to be so separate.


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## AVR1962

lawrencebe said:


> One good piece of advice I read was to almost vision your spouse as a whiny child once they start pouting and spewing all the blame back on you. Ultimately don't exhaust yourself with trying to say the right or wrong thing.


Lawrencebe, your whole reply was excellent and what you mentioned above is something that I most recently started realizing, my husband acts like a child with all his pouting. I think what he did as a child worked for him and he got what he wanted and the acts of a child continued into his adult life and for all these years they did control whatever situation he was dealing with but I am done with it and no longer want to play along.


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## SaltInWound

AVR1962 said:


> Lawrencebe, your whole reply was excellent and what you mentioned above is something that I most recently started realizing, my husband acts like a child with all his pouting. I think what he did as a child worked for him and he got what he wanted and the acts of a child continued into his adult life and for all these years they did control whatever situation he was dealing with but I am done with it and no longer want to play along.


Mine goes so far as to poke out his lips. Really mature for a 50 year old man.


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## VeggieMom

AVR1962 said:


> His family too has not helped, they see me ass the problem and the one sister especially protective of her 'lil brother. Years of hurt and frustration here. I have had to emotionally remove myself from husband and just try and accept that are lives will never be engaged. Since shutting up and not taking care of things I no longer want to be a part of he has stepped up to the plate which is nice but I still don't care for everything to be so separate.



I am also the bad guy in H's family and it's frustrating. I am the disrespectful daughter in law because I demanded H keep his promises and I got very emotional when he frustrated me .I am reading Living with the Passive Aggressive Man and I agree with that point where a PA person can turn anyone into a violent hot-headed lunatic. I was shocked with how badly I lost my temper and threw things a few times, screamed other times. And then H would tell me calmly that I had an anger problem and needed to get help for myself! 

H's parents will visit for weeks at a time and see these interactions and their son can do no wrong. H's mom is also very manipulative and uses shaming-- she tried to do it on one of my children when she was visiting and I was potty training. She also withdraws her love and puts on silent treatment. H wanted his family to come visit again- they are coming from out of country. I told him they can stay 2 weeks max in our small house (2 bedrooms, one office, 2 baths), or else they can get an apartment within walking distance to our neighborhood, or else I am moving out with the kids until they leave. I am caretaker to a furnished, unoccupied property a few miles away and have permission to use it if I like. It feels good to set boundaries with the freedom to enforce them. It feels really good.


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## VeggieMom

Thank you lawrencebe and everyone here for your kind replies and for sharing your own stories. I have spent the last 2 nights reading on-line and a book about PA, and the more I do the more enlightening it is. I wish I had made this connection years ago. The MC missed it and we focused on trying to increase intimacy through dates and stuff- which usually fell through at the last minute or were spoiled by H somehow.

I feel like years have been wasted where I could have learned to manage my reactions better and in that way manage his own behavior to some degree. My children see the tension and my oldest is 12 and has started to both pick up some of H's behavior, and be affected by it. I have shared some of my journey with my 12 year old and tell her "You teach people how to treat you." I had talks with her about separating and how she would feel about it. She loves her Daddy and he is mostly good to them-- far better than to me because I am the focus of his anger and the one to blame for his problems. But she also sees how he hurts me and now she's going to see how I will not allow that anymore. I don't like bringing children into this but she's a smart one and I want to teach her I am not a door mat. I don't need to leave to stay strong-- it may come to that at some point but not yet.

I am SO glad I went back and got my degree and my job! I can if I need to pick up extra hours and support myself-- though as I mentioned before there would be a big cut between double income now and single income later. She sees me as a strong woman who has spoken up all these years but made no headway. Now I can in some degree. 

I have not read much yet compared to how I will read and learn in the following weeks, but my evening went so much better last night. I was detached. I went about my work and I was polite to H and treated him decently. But did not fall into his traps, did not ask him to make any decisions or do anything. I really just don't care. I had a wonderful time with the kids last night and watched a show, and the kids were happy and relaxed.

Just as with my children (for whom it is developmentally appropriate to do so!) I know H will push or prod me and try to get me to react once he sees that I am detached now. I am going to have to learn not to do that and have the skills to rise above this.


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## VeggieMom

SaltInWound said:


> Mine goes so far as to poke out his lips. Really mature for a 50 year old man.


Nice-- real attractive!


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## lawrencebe

AVR1962 said:


> Lawrencebe, your whole reply was excellent and what you mentioned above is something that I most recently started realizing, my husband acts like a child with all his pouting. I think what he did as a child worked for him and he got what he wanted and the acts of a child continued into his adult life and for all these years they did control whatever situation he was dealing with but I am done with it and no longer want to play along.


And through my continued reading this is how oir spouses 
re wired and CONDITIONED to feel/think. It just reminds me of the child whi gets accused of puttong their hand on the "cookie jar" and instead of getting in trouble they blame everyone else, including the dog! Depending kn the overall abuse or dysfunction sustain in the jousehold this is how these LEARNED behaviors come to pass, its a defense mechanism. Ive learned to watch body language and emotion WHILE listening to my wife. While they are in these fits or tantrum states you almost have to just act as if you're watching a child defend themself. That's why strict boundaries and being solid and firm in tone of voice and controlling YOURSELF is key. Your not handling the person, you're disengaging the behavior. It's like being a referee on the sideline of an NFL game, the coach may yell or scream and the refree will listen, but if they go to far or become to belligerent; they will give them a warning, if its continues they blow the whistle and throw a flag and they get a penalty. It's the same thing you do with your spouse.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lawrencebe

VeggieMom said:


> H's parents will visit for weeks at a time and see these interactions and their son can do no wrong. H's mom is also very manipulative and uses shaming-- she tried to do it on one of my children when she was visiting and I was potty training. She also withdraws her love and puts on silent treatment. H wanted his family to come visit again- they are coming from out of country. I told him they can stay 2 weeks max in our small house (2 bedrooms, one office, 2 baths), or else they can get an apartment within walking distance to our neighborhood, or else I am moving out with the kids until they leave. I am caretaker to a furnished, unoccupied property a few miles away and have permission to use it if I like. It feels good to set boundaries with the freedom to enforce them. It feels really good.


1.) Google search covert/overt abuse. The tactics your mother-in-law are ways to ultimately make you feel guilty. My wife does this as well and its a form of control. Once again its like a teenager who gets told no and runs to lock themselves in the room and screams "I HATE YOU, I'M NEVER LEAVING MY ROOM!". 
2.) If you have a safe house or place to go then utilize it. You can even take the kids to a movie for a few hours, again its about controlling YOURSELF and PROTECTION against these attacks.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## VeggieMom

lawrencebe said:


> 1.) Google search covert/overt abuse. The tactics your mother-in-law are ways to ultimately make you feel guilty. My wife does this as well and its a form of control. Once again its like a teenager who gets told no and runs to lock themselves in the room and screams "I HATE YOU, I'M NEVER LEAVING MY ROOM!".
> 2.) If you have a safe house or place to go then utilize it. You can even take the kids to a movie for a few hours, again its about controlling YOURSELF and PROTECTION against these attacks.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes, I agree! The last time she was here, I put her in her place as far as her role with the kids vs. my role with them. She spent the rest of the time sleeping in the back room. She would wake up and spend time with H before work, sleep all day, wake up and cook a fantastic dinner for him and spend all evening with him. I was fine with that honestly. It got under my skin byt I didn't feel guilty because I knew I was in my right to act that way. And she did respect my boundaries with the kids and acted like a grandma to them, not a guilt-inducing parent.


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## deejov

It is good to hear you are reading about all of this.

One thing to keep in mind (after you settle the anger and resentment) is that the dynamics between both types of people make this "work" for a PA person.

And a PA person learned this behavior. Generally, they are not selfish, mean people. They are managing life as they know HOW.
Just as you react, as you have known how, in the past.

Everyone has PA traits. A few people have a full blown personality disorder. I was told that it takes a lot of therapy for a PA person to completely overcome their inner training. 

It is not a sticking point for me. I learned how to deflect it, and the biggest things was Not To Take It Personally. A lot of right versus wrong starts coming into play when you realise what the issue is. 

The GOOD point of living with someone who is severely PA?
It made me learn boundaries. It taught me a lot. I try hard not to judge how H chooses to live his life. He's aware of the PA behavior, but it's important to note that self esteem plays heavily on this. 
Unless a person has enough confidence to take on themselves, it's not going to improve.

When you start initiating boundaries, be aware of the 'free will" aspect. Right versus wrong. Differing points of view. And spend some time getting to know yourself. What is really important to you, and what is petty stuff that you should not take personally? Judgements. Against yourself and others. All this weighs in. 

This is hard to do when you are angry or resentful.


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## VeggieMom

deejov, you said some great stuff there. When my kids act out I don't take it personally. I know it's part of their immaturity and their moment of frustration. Sad but starting to treat H the same way. The difference is the kids come and say sorry for losing their cool and all is forgiven. H would never apologize unless he said something so horrible that it would make him look bad in front of others to not apologize.

Thinking of joining a running/walking club. It's a good start. I feel so empowered and positive today.


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## DaytoDay

VeggieMom, just caught up on your thread. You've gotten some great feedback! I've enjoyed reading it.

First, I completely get where you're coming from regarding not wanting to put your kids through a D. I'm there with you. And though I don't want to negate the advice of people that grew up with parents that they thought should have D'd sooner, they don't have the perspective to compare what their growing up in a D situation would have looked like. Every situation is different and you have to make the best decision you can for your own situation. For me personally, my decision is based on watching what my step-kids went through and not wanting to put my son through any of that, and I know it would be almost identical if we D'd. Afterall, half of the equation would be exactly the same. If I can't operate in a healthy, functional manner with H within a M, I certainly wouldn't get more cooperation from him outside of it.

Besides that, I'm not sure if I would categorize my H as PA, as you suggested in your post to me. Yes, he has some of that, but we ALL do to some degree, so it's difficult to evaluate it to the level of a disorder. I did a lot of reading on things such as narcissism, but I reached a point where I realized I'm not qualified to diagnose him. And even if I could, a label wouldn't change anything for me. His behavior is what it is and it simply doesn't work for me. I used to study the list of characteristics of all sorts of things to try to glean an understanding, but I realized it didn't matter.  If there are 20 symptoms of diabetes, and one of the symptoms is swollen feet, not matching all 20 symptoms does not negate the fact that swollen feet is still a health issue, a symptom of a problem. If the person with the swollen feet is not willing to do something about it, it really doesn't matter what the diagnosis is. The books/reads are at least great for helping you to feel vindicated that the behavior is unhealthy, and to evidence that you're not crazy for feeling that way. All you (and I) have to do is figure out how to not let if affect me.

Still working on that part.

Hopefully, together, we can figure out a way to get out of the funk we're in, in spite of our H's.


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## VeggieMom

SlowCreek.NoPaddle, well at least you know what he's not.  I wish you good results on your journey as well. And when we get sick of talking about our H's you can meet me in The Social Spot lounge to talk about veg cooking!


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## AVR1962

VeggieMom said:


> I am also the bad guy in H's family and it's frustrating. I am the disrespectful daughter in law because I demanded H keep his promises and I got very emotional when he frustrated me .I am reading Living with the Passive Aggressive Man and I agree with that point where a PA person can turn anyone into a violent hot-headed lunatic. I was shocked with how badly I lost my temper and threw things a few times, screamed other times. And then H would tell me calmly that I had an anger problem and needed to get help for myself!
> 
> H's parents will visit for weeks at a time and see these interactions and their son can do no wrong. H's mom is also very manipulative and uses shaming-- she tried to do it on one of my children when she was visiting and I was potty training. She also withdraws her love and puts on silent treatment. H wanted his family to come visit again- they are coming from out of country. I told him they can stay 2 weeks max in our small house (2 bedrooms, one office, 2 baths), or else they can get an apartment within walking distance to our neighborhood, or else I am moving out with the kids until they leave. I am caretaker to a furnished, unoccupied property a few miles away and have permission to use it if I like. It feels good to set boundaries with the freedom to enforce them. It feels really good.


I so do understand, I have been in your shoes and done the very same. I am a teacher and have the patience of a saint but I have blown my top in some situations, like never before, and then it all looks bad on me, no matter what the past has been. I have finally concluded that's part of the trap of living with a PA. You would SERIOUSLY have to have NO involvement or opinions for you not to be touched by these situations. I have said many times that I have had to die emotionally to be with my husband.


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## northernlights

My H also has in-laws who come from overseas, so when my MIL visits, she usually stays w/ us for 2 weeks. One time she commented that since our bedroom is above her's, she hears "everything." So from then on, H refused to have sex with me while she was here. Nice.

I'm wondering if anyone's H has reduced the PA in response to your detachment and understanding of what's going on? So far, no change from my H. This doesn't surprise me in my situation, because H has never seemed to notice what I do or respond to me in any way. It would be most consistent with our past for him to not notice or care that I'm reacting differently/not at all. He's unusually immune to me/totally detached from me anyway. 

Anyone having better luck than me?


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## deejov

Yes. I've had a lot of success with boundaries and detaching. It takes time. No more arguing. And no more judging from me.

Part of detaching is giving them their freedom. Completely.
Let them do their own thing, their own way. No expectations. 

This is closely related to the puppet thing PA people can do. 
They wait for you to make decisions, tell them what to do, so they don't have to take responsibility for it.

Stop making decisions, and they have nothing to be PA about. Stop judging and criticizing, and they are forced to accept their own behaviors. Because it doesn't affect you.


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## AVR1962

northernlights said:


> My H also has in-laws who come from overseas, so when my MIL visits, she usually stays w/ us for 2 weeks. One time she commented that since our bedroom is above her's, she hears "everything." So from then on, H refused to have sex with me while she was here. Nice.
> 
> I'm wondering if anyone's H has reduced the PA in response to your detachment and understanding of what's going on? So far, no change from my H. This doesn't surprise me in my situation, because H has never seemed to notice what I do or respond to me in any way. It would be most consistent with our past for him to not notice or care that I'm reacting differently/not at all. He's unusually immune to me/totally detached from me anyway.
> 
> Anyone having better luck than me?


Northernlights, this is a good question. For me the answer is no. I think by emotionally distancing myself it has caused me less frustration but as far as change, no. 

Husband and I went to counselor. She thought she could try and find the source of his fear....basically she told me that PAs start acting the way they do in childhood because they have to protect themselves from something. She worked with us both together and separate. Husband made his childhood look like bliss, she could pinpoint nothing. She tried to work on getting him to be more aware of what is going on around him and to be involved, husband said this was very hard.....can you imagine? As soon as he got mad at me for something though, he was right back to his old ways despite what he had learned thru counseling. My counselor told me he would never change so it was now my choice as to whether to live with it or leave. She told me that if I did leave I would have to be very smart because he would try to screw me over any way he could.


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## AVR1962

deejov said:


> Yes. I've had a lot of success with boundaries and detaching. It takes time. No more arguing. And no more judging from me.
> 
> Part of detaching is giving them their freedom. Completely.
> Let them do their own thing, their own way. No expectations.
> 
> This is closely related to the puppet thing PA people can do.
> They wait for you to make decisions, tell them what to do, so they don't have to take responsibility for it.
> 
> Stop making decisions, and they have nothing to be PA about. Stop judging and criticizing, and they are forced to accept their own behaviors. Because it doesn't affect you.


Deejov, I am slowly getting where you are now. My question would be is you find that the two of you are close in any fashion? The more I detach and let go the happier husband seems to be by himself. I stopped initiating conversation because conversation was me asking him questions just to try and talk. So I am silent and he offers no conversation. I find it very hard to be close to someone when we are living completely separate lives even though we are in the same household.


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## northernlights

AVR1962 said:


> The more I detach and let go the happier husband seems to be by himself. I stopped initiating conversation because conversation was me asking him questions just to try and talk. So I am silent and he offers no conversation. I find it very hard to be close to someone when we are living completely separate lives even though we are in the same household.


Yes! I think my H likes it this way. When we're hanging out with friends or family, he can be engaging and funny. I used to think, "yes, there's the man I married!" and regain hope. Now I'm realizing that that's his charming exterior that you read about in books like "living with the passive aggressive man." At home and alone, it's the cold, uninvolved, constantly irritated man, who uses PA techniques to punish me for I don't know what. Emotional connection? What's that?


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## SaltInWound

northernlights said:


> Yes! I think my H likes it this way. When we're hanging out with friends or family, he can be engaging and funny. I used to think, "yes, there's the man I married!" and regain hope. Now I'm realizing that that's his charming exterior that you read about in books like "living with the passive aggressive man." At home and alone, it's the cold, uninvolved, constantly irritated man, who uses PA techniques to punish me for I don't know what. Emotional connection? What's that?


What you get at home is who he really is. A person with extremely low self esteem. Self esteem for him comes from validation from others. He knows he won't get a reaction from people without interaction in some overly eager way. When people laugh with him and talk about what a great guy he is, it boosts his self esteem, however, it doesn't last forever. Being fake is exhausting. He doesn't want to be fake at home. He wants to be himself, so he sulks. And he will take it out on you, because you are not giving him instant gratification the way others do, but he gets gratification by going in the opposite direction. His low self esteem needs a boost, so he will make you feel worse through something passive aggressive. Knowing someone else is feeling worse than himself gives him a boost. Sick huh?


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## northernlights

SaltInWound said:


> What you get at home is who he really is. A person with extremely low self esteem.


Yes. This was what attracted me to him at first too. I thought I could rescue him. That if I loved him so much, I could make up for his lousy childhood. And it worked so well when I had the emotional reserves to give, give, give. Until finally I realized I had been sucked dry and he's still the exact same person he was when we first met.

That's what's so sad I think about these kinds of situations. There's a chance now that I know the appropriate way to handle the situation that we could have a less emotionally exhausting relationship. But, I'm done. He'd have to invest in the relationship to build back my trust, respect, and ultimately love, and he's not doing that. 

I'm sorry that other people are in this situation too, but it's been so helpful to meet ("meet") you guys and know I'm not alone.


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## deejov

At first, when I started pushing back on behavior, we never talked. We would make a point to not even be home at the same time. 

I personally believe that detaching without doing heavy lifting on yourself just results in feeling numb.

Did I notice if my H was ignoring me? No. I was busy doing all kinds of things I wanted to do. I was out having fun. I made plans for all my free time. When I was at home, if he was watching tv, I would sit next to him and read books and articles suggested by IC. I was feeling happier and happier. 

He remained depressed, happy with others around, sullen around me. He finally told me he wanted to know what my "secret" was and he was a bit curious as to what I was doing. He had to notice that I was getting on with my life without him.

It's not that you wait around for them to notice that you are detaching. You do it until you are happy, and no longer spending YOUR time being pissed at how they are, or what they have done. 
It no longer matters to you. It can't affect you. You have your happy place. Once you get there... it cannot be undone by PA behavior again. 

Until then, you are just playing into their game.


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## deejov

AVR1962;2828394
Husband and I went to counselor. She thought she could try and find the source of his fear....basically she told me that PAs start acting the way they do in childhood because they have to protect themselves from something. [/QUOTE said:


> We heard very similar comments from MC. Interestingly, I blew it off at the time.
> My H had leukemia from age 3 to 15 (3 episodes) and he admits some of his childhood was "waiting to die". I blew it off at the time because it seems to be the default excuse... he had cancer as a kid. But ironic that you mention this too.


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## Wiserforit

VeggieMom said:


> I think he has no idea what has gone wrong, he honestly does not see how hurtful he is even when I tell him clearly what he did that hurt me.


Gah!!!! Stop right there.

You are married to the same person I was. Hahahahah - so many exact parallels. Just one little story for ya to share.

I always bought ramen by the case. Shrink-wrapped case. Because I live in a cabin in the woods of interior Alaska. We go six weeks between town runs for supplies. I throw half a dozen in the back of the plane, boat, 4-wheeler, snomachine or whatever for survival food. Perfect for that task. And I LOVE ramen. 

So I marry this girl. Stay at home wife, trying to have chilrdren. I'm working two jobs. Her duty is shopping. Explain the whole thing. Buy the case. Shrink-wrapped. 

She gets two packs. I am disappointed. We run out of course. I explain again next time. I describe where the shelf is in the store. Don't make that mistake again. She comes home with two packs.

I got testy. We run out again of course. She assures me she will get the case next time. But two packs come home once more. I am livid this time. She goes into a crying fit and alternates between playing the victim and ridiculing my need for ramen.

It is hard to believe, but it got far worse. At one point I got the keys to the truck and said F-you I am going to drive for two hours now round-trip just to buy my case of Ramen you stupid Bit$h. She had me screaming at her. 

But she got down on the floor sobbing, holding my legs, begging me not to go. Honestly she swore she would get the case of ramen next time.

In seven years, she never did it. That's how sick she was. When I had enough of her for being such a manipulative monster, right before I threw her out and she saw it coming... she came home with 36 individual packages of different flavors and had bought a plastic bin to put them all in.

I laughed so hard I just about fell over. I said "you still can't do it, can you?" Even to the last, she refused to buy what I said: the shrink-wrapped case, one flavor. I had explained that the case served as its own container, it was the perfect size, and fit right into a spot on my kitchen shelves where for 15 years previous to her I had always kept them. 

She responded that "Oh but I thought you would like the different flavors better". Played dumb when I laughed at that. Because I had heard that a thousand times from her: doing something different than what you asked, what you demanded, what you _screamed for_ at the top of your lungs - because you would "like it better" that way. 

Your husband knows EXACTLY what he is doing, just like my wife. Don't waste your breath trying to get him to see how abusive his behavior is because he knows better than anyone else. Playing dumb is part of what they call "duper's delight" - getting such a kick out of pretending they don't understand and making you exhaust yourself trying to explain. 

You need to read "In Sheep's Clothing, Understanding and Dealing with Manipulative People" By Dr. George Simon. I guarantee you will love that book and not want to put it down. It will name every single tactic he uses on you: shaming, guilt-tripping, playing dumb, selective memory, lying by omission, lying by inclusion of extraneous misleading information, diversion, evasion, projection, blame-the-victim, etc. The double bind. 

Two very important insights for you are first that he is doing all of this to keep you in a constant one-down position, stressed continuously, and easier to manipulate out of sheer exhaustion, anxiety, and depression. 

But second, the problem is actually YOU. For allowing yourself to be victimized by manipulative people. The best solution you have already vetoed - leaving your manipulator. 

What he will do is every time you are close to leaving, he will improve just enough to convince you to stay. So you are always in a state of "Just about fed up enough to leave". What a horrible way to live. 

I left, and am married to an amazing wife who treats me like a king now. It is such an incredibly different life. I am so happy. I wish the same for you.


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## diwali123

My ex h was EXACTLY as you describe. 
Whatever you do, don't tell him he is PA. It will just make him more determined to be PA.


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## VeggieMom

Wiserforit, thanks for sharing your story-- I can totally relate to a lot of the things. And like I mentioned, I lost my temper a few times, cried, shouted, threw things. And was accused of having an anger problem.

I will add your book to my list. I have enjoyed what I have read so far on this topic and it's extremely validating. 

Encouraged by friends, I did have a talk with H a couple of days ago. Just because he can be a jerk doesn't mean he doesn't deserve a warning.

I told him I was preparing to leave and we've had this talk before but I think time he knew it was different and I mean what I say. I told him I don't want to hear apologies or promises. Actions are what count, not talk. And it needs to be sustained over time. 

I have been detached and it feels liberating. I realized I have allowed myself to be co-dependent on him, and my self-esteem was affected by how he treated me. My self-worth was related his not treating me well. Going back to school and getting my new career has helped a lot with that- I have earned awards at work and lots of compliments from co-workers and the clients. I have wasted so much time and energy thinking there must be something wrong with me that I can't even get the love of my own husband, but now I know it's not me. I have tried too much.

So he asked me on a date last night, promised to even hold my hand in the movie which he has always used as a manipulative tool in the past depending on how he feels. And usually he'll find a way to be late for the date, or insist on going to the gym first to make us late, or pick a fight on the way there. And then when I want to hold his hand he will tell me he's still mad at me and won't hold it. So I told him honestly I don't feel like going on a date with him right now but thanks for asking. He was really shocked and taken aback-- usually it's me asking him to go on a date, practically begging. He asked again, suggesting I pick the movie if I didn't like what he was suggesting and again I said I honestly didn't feel like going on a date. 

I told him during our talk I'm tired of the game-playing, cold shoulder, lies, manipulation, flipping blame, etc. If he doesn't do some work to change those things, I am making real plans to leave in the next 6 months or so. He saw how dead serious I was and he looked shocked and sad and got some tears. For once he did not deny that he did those things, or that he only did them because I made him do them. He sat quiet and listened and walked away looking kinda dazed. 

I have no idea if he will change or not. That's up to him. I can't control him and I'm certainly at this point not going to help him-- because as I'm learning through my reading that will only make him think I'm pushing him, and he'll have someone to blame for his failures. He's a grown man, he can change or not change. Not up to me.

I know with my kids, when I crack down on discipline it will sometimes get worse before it gets better. They will fight even more to resist or argue and then when they realize I'm not giving in, and arguing only hurts their cause further, they start to listen to me and do the requested behavior change or task. I fully expect things with H to get worse as he attempts to push me into reacting the way he manipulated me to do in the past.

In the meantime I have continued working on being detached and finding joys outside. I have not read a good book in a long time and I'm now into a good novel, and planned a couple projects around the house that don't involve asking him, or expecting him, to help. 

I am not saying I am fully committed to staying forever-- everyone has a breaking point, and a list of pros and cons. For now my list has more pros to staying, but if that changes I do have the means to leave and the support from friends and family, too. And I have the wise words of experience and encouragement from you all, too.


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## diwali123

When I was with my ex I found this site. It is excellent. 
http://passiveaggressive.homestead.com/

I highly recommend it. It helped me realize I wasn't crazy, and helped me detach. I threw an ironing board at the wall and broke a window. Then I was accused of being angry. 
They push you and push you until you just can't take it anymore. I think they can't express their own anger so they constantly push to make you angry until you express the anger for them. 

I think you are doing really well. I like that you didn't accept the date. To me his offer was a quick fix solution. He needs to know this is something deep inside him that is going to take time to repair. He can't just flip a switch and decide to be a good husband. 

I fell for that so many times. I would get to a point of preparing to leave and then he would suddenly decide to be a better man. And it would last days, or months or years. Always with some minor slip ups but then he always reverted back to being angry, PA and miserable. 

His patten of sabotaging your dates is so typical. When our d was six months old she spent the night with my mom for the first time. I got dressed up, got some new make up, did my hair. He didn't even look at me. 
At dinner I tried to have a conversation and he would barely talk to me. He found a way to pick a fight and we ended up sleeping in separate rooms instead of having time for connecting and intimacy. 

He was the master of the silent treatment. I often wondered why did he even want to be with me if I made him so unhappy?


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## SaltInWound

diwali123 said:


> they push you and push you until you just can't take it anymore. I think they can't express their own anger so they constantly push to make you angry until *you express the anger for them*.


bingo!!!


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## SaltInWound

diwali123 said:


> I often wondered why did he even want to be with me if I made him so unhappy?


Once I understood what was going on, it became clear how backward that thinking is. They are self made unhappy. They need you around to make them feel better, by making YOU unhappy.


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## diwali123

It's so sad that so many people live this way. 
I wish that I had just seen it so much earlier. But then I wouldn't have my daughter.


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## northernlights

My second didn't sleep through the night until she was 4. (Yes, that's years). Not only did she wake up at night, she'd wake up 10 or 20 times per night. She nursed constantly, and would throw middle of the night tantrums and demand I do things like change her pajamas. I was so, so sleep deprived, I don't even know how I survived. I begged H to help me, and he always said he would, but he wouldn't. 

Finally, he let me sleep in one morning and took care of the girls. And then, he walked into my bedroom and woke me up himself THREE TIMES to ask me how to make pancakes. I wanted to kill him. Pancakes. Three times.

It was KathyBatesel here who first suggested he might be PA. Until she said that, I thought PA was when you said something like, "oh wow that dress really makes your butt look much less large." I had no idea what it really meant. 

Relationship psychology should be a required course in life. So many of us could have run the other way years ago if we knew this was a thing we could be on the lookout for. I think when my daughters hit dating age, I'm going to gather all kinds of books for them about which kinds of men to avoid. If such a book exists.


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## diwali123

I've heard that "inside the minds of abusive and controlling men" is good for teens. 
I'm going to do the same thing. 
Funny, my daughter was a really bad sleeper too. She was five when she started sleeping through the night. 
She didn't wake up as many times as yours but she would sometimes wake up at 4 or 5 am and be awake for the day. 
There were times in the first month when she was waking up every three hours to eat. I too asked him to help me and he wouldn't.
I really thought I was going to go crazy. There were days I could barely function. Thank god I didn't have a job! 
I felt so bad but I would sometimes put her in her highchair and turn on her favorite show for an hour just so I could snooze. 
I hate using TV as a baby sitter but she turned out fine.
He told me he was going to help and we would be partners. I wasn't sure I wanted a baby because of my depression. Sleep deprivation is very hard on people who are on anti depressants. He swore he would help and then two weeks before her due date he told me he wasn't going to help because he had a job. 
I chose not to believe he could do that to us. But he did.
I'm sorry you have to go through it too.


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## SaltInWound

I also got no help with our child. 
Is there such a thing as a passive aggressive who interacts with their children or are they all too self absorbed and immature to view their children as anything other than an inconvenience and competition?


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## diwali123

I think they can't handle having children.


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## VeggieMom

Actually my H has done an okay job with the kids. He did wake up and feed the babies about half the time. He also walked with them at night until they went back to sleep. In fact, unfortunately, as soon as our first child was born she pretty much was the sole object of his outward love and displaced any remaining respect/love he had for me.

I'm not saying this in an irrational, jealous way. It is factually true. The baby was allowed in our bed for way longer than I wanted her to be there. In the first year to 18 months, fine, but she didn't get out of our bed until she was almost 3. Any attempts made by me to get her out of the bed ended in failure. When we had the second child, he finally agreed to first child getting out of our bed and he choose to sleep on the floor next to her bed to ease her into her new room. To this day she's an awful sleeper and is afraid of sleeping alone (she has a dog in the room now for that purpose). The second child, I put my foot down and that child started out in a crib in our room, and was much easier to transition to her own room at the proper time.

He actually hand-fed them until they were about age 3! He still uses food as love and when they don't eat whatever he has prepared he feels sad and mopes around. I think this is because his mom showed her love that way to him and otherwise is not a very touchy-feely person. H will hug the kids, carried them around a lot when they were younger, and makes it a point to take them to the movies and stuff. 

He used them as an excuse to not go out on dates with me-- did not trust any babysitters. We had no family around to babysit so no dates-- for years. Finally they are old enough to stay alone but he makes some excuse to delay the date until it's too late for my own comfort to leave them. Or better yet, will invite them at the last minute to come along on a "family date."  He builds them up to watch the movie we were going to watch together, or eat where we were going to have a dinner date.

Attempts for me to discipline the kids has led to him interfering in my parenting, saying I was going too farm saying stuff like "poor kid, she's just tired- can't you make an exception?", etc. He allows them to manipulate, back-talk, and be disrespectful. It's his job to get them ready for school the last 2 years, and the younger one will throw big tantrums and refuse to cooperate and he has no idea how to handle it. He tries to bribe, cajole, ignore it. They have been late to the bus stop a few times and been tardy to school.

Luckily I was a SAHM and spent most of the day with the kids raising them my way until the last 2 years, and they ultimately do listen to me and respect me a lot more than him. Now he's frustrated that they disrespect him and never seem to listen to him. He says it was because I poisoned them to him. I pointed out that I am a lot tougher on them than he is and they still listen to me better. When I was a SAHM and the kids would not get out of bed or get ready for school, I put them in the car in their pajamas with a bag of clothes and drove them to school that way. It took only two times of getting ready in the back seat to know I was serious. Loving and reasonable, a good listener, but I don't take nonsense.

He has failed in a lot of ways to be consistent with doing projects and hobbies with them and help with schoolwork. He also wanted to raise them in his religion which was fine with me. But they know next to nothing about his religion or culture. He has not taken them for worship in over a year and has done a poor job of explaining the basics of his religion. One just stated she does not believe in God at all. The other one is not sure and still exploring but does not consider herself his religion. And yet when I tried to take them to a different religious service just to explore it, he threw a fit. 

When one child was doing poorly in math, he tried to help her since he's the math wizard in the house. She (the same one who throws morning tantrums for him) refused to listen, shouted at him, threw the book on the floor, and refused to cooperate. I hired a math tutor for her and she progressed with the tutor and did not misbehave. H was super mad at me for hiring the tutor, saying I was taking the parenting experience away from him. Whatever. She did better at math. The teacher even said, at a parent teacher conference, that we were good parents for hiring that tutor and not allowing her to fall further behind in math.

So while he's a "fun" dad, he has no clue how to relate to them in many ways. They know that their daddy loves them with all his heart and I feel good about that. If they need something, he will get it for them. If they are sick he will take care of them.

In spite of his favoritism of them over me, I have a very close relationship with my kids-- probably closer than he does. They trust me and come to me with their problems because I am a good listener. I am sometimes hard on them and expect them to do their best in school and do the right thing in life. They are really great kids. I am happy that the youngest is making good choices as far as friends and peer groups. The oldest is more introverted but involved in some clubs and stuff, and I approve of her friends, too. 

If I felt the kids were in danger in any way I would not have stayed. They recognize that he is not respectful of me and the oldest feels free with him to tell him he's not fair, or he's talking nonsense or being manipulative.:smthumbup: It's something I point out about her own behavior which is totally age-appropriate (12) and so she's aware of that kind of behavior in herself and in others. 

Anyway I didn't mean for that to be so long! I'm sorry for those of you whose partners can't handle kids. I don't think my H is the best dad ever but he could be a lot worse. It's more how the kids have come between us (his choice) that I am resentful of.


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## northernlights

VeggieMom said:


> If I felt the kids were in danger in any way I would not have stayed.


75% of why I'm staying now is because my girls are in danger when they're alone with him. From the very beginning, he'd do things like walk away from them on the changing table, fall asleep with them while lying on a couch (huge SIDS risk), I could go on and on. This is the man who left our 3 year old alone with no life jacket in a swimming pool (because she was in the shallow end). I don't think this is related to his PA, though. I mean, if it were, and he was passive-aggressively putting the kids in harms way to hurt me, that'd be psychopathic. 

I don't see other instances of psychopathic behavior, so I do think that it's something else. But when we were in marriage counseling, I told the MC that I needed to know why these things had happened so that I could feel safe with him. I needed a professional to tell me, "No, he wasn't maliciously trying to kill you or the kids," to move forward. But we only had 4 sessions with her, and she didn't have any answers for me. So, I still feel stuck on this element.

At the same time, he knows that I need answers, and ultimately he needs to be in therapy to figure out what's going on with himself. Our therapist said he should plan on doing several years of individual therapy to really overcome these issues, and he went once. Or never, I can't remember.

So, I wait. He knew how I felt because I laid it out very clearly (that he needed to be in therapy to stop this behavior), but he refuses to go. And now since it's been a few months, he doesn't remember any more. It's like none of it ever happened.


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## diwali123

That's horrible. I'm so sorry. Have you talked to a lawyer about the possibility of him only getting supervised visitation?


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## Wiserforit

So much common ground!

Date saboteurs: Mine would insist on a date, but ruin the date. One version was to demand the most expensive restaurant in town and really make me miserable if I didn't go. Once we ordered the food, all she did was complain about it. She liked making enough of a scene about it to have people staring at us. Once the owner came over, just petrified and asking what was wrong. Oh nothing. 

The other version was to have me choose, assuring me she wanted to go wherever I wanted. She would wait until the food was already ordered and then start this whole routine about how she didn't really want to be at that restaurant, she didn't like anything on the menu, and when it came it was awful food.

Under either routine she also nagged me about my manners. The first time we went out to eat together I picked up a carrot stick with my fingers. She dropped her fork loudly on the plate, got up and walked out. 

I eventually not only stopped going out to eat with her - I stopped eating with her at all. Because I realized that ruining my mealtime was her objective. It sounds crazy looking back, but whenever she stated she was going to cook dinner I learned to make a full meal right away. Because what she liked to do was starve me for hours waiting on food while telling me it was rude to feed myself waiting on the food she was making. 

The literature I have read is daunting in that these kinds of behaviors require everlasting vigilance on your part. Yes, they can get better for a time when they know you are going to leave them, but they never actually change into normal people. 

Being with a normal person after that feels like having been liberated from abject slavery.


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## VeggieMom

northernlights said:


> 75% of why I'm staying now is because my girls are in danger when they're alone with him. From the very beginning, he'd do things like walk away from them on the changing table, fall asleep with them while lying on a couch (huge SIDS risk), I could go on and on. This is the man who left our 3 year old alone with no life jacket in a swimming pool (because she was in the shallow end). I don't think this is related to his PA, though. I mean, if it were, and he was passive-aggressively putting the kids in harms way to hurt me, that'd be psychopathic.


I agree that's scary! I wonder if he has ADD or something . . .


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## VeggieMom

Wiserforit said:


> So much common ground!
> 
> 
> 
> Being with a normal person after that feels like having been liberated from abject slavery.


Wow that behavior is extreme! And very drama-queen like!

One thing that's been liberating for me is meeting normal people at work and now I'm branching out and trying to make more friends.


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## diwali123

Wiser forit: 

That is really extreme. Is she your ex now? 
You reminded me of his tendency to not be able to come up with any ideas for where we would go out to eat, and then I would name them off while he shot down every one. And then he would get mad that I couldn't decide what I wanted to eat.


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## northernlights

VeggieMom said:


> I agree that's scary! I wonder if he has ADD or something . . .


He doesn't. His father has an undiagnosed neurological degenerative disorder, and H and I met with FIL's neurologist and I told him that I was concerned about these things, plus all the forgetting and the bizarre things he says (H does not have a firm grip on reality). The neurologist ordered cognitive testing and an MRI, which helped some and confused the matter some. No tumors or diagnosable dementia (yet), but his attention scores were high (so no ADD). Several neurological processing disorders/learning disabilities, but according to the doctor who did the testing, nothing that would explain his behavior. SHe was the one who initially referred us on to a marriage counselor. 

Follow-up cognitive testing in 6 months. Part of why I'm staying is to make sure he does the follow-up testing. THat will tell us whether his condition is static or deteriorating. 

I'm glad the testing is taking a full year, actually. I committed to working on the relationship and myself and giving it my best for that year.


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## northernlights

diwali123 said:


> Wiser forit:
> 
> That is really extreme. Is she your ex now?
> You reminded me of his tendency to not be able to come up with any ideas for where we would go out to eat, and then I would name them off while he shot down every one. And then he would get mad that I couldn't decide what I wanted to eat.


My H does this, but it's more a result of low blood sugar than PA. I just make the food decisions if he's too hungry to think clearly. Once he gets about half-way through his meal he becomes rational again.


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## diwali123

northernlights said:


> He doesn't. His father has an undiagnosed neurological degenerative disorder, and H and I met with FIL's neurologist and I told him that I was concerned about these things, plus all the forgetting and the bizarre things he says (H does not have a firm grip on reality). The neurologist ordered cognitive testing and an MRI, which helped some and confused the matter some. No tumors or diagnosable dementia (yet), but his attention scores were high (so no ADD). Several neurological processing disorders/learning disabilities, but according to the doctor who did the testing, nothing that would explain his behavior. SHe was the one who initially referred us on to a marriage counselor.
> 
> Follow-up cognitive testing in 6 months. Part of why I'm staying is to make sure he does the follow-up testing. THat will tell us whether his condition is static or deteriorating.
> 
> I'm glad the testing is taking a full year, actually. I committed to working on the relationship and myself and giving it my best for that year.


Did you address those specific behaviors of his with the doctor? Like leaving the kids unattended?


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## Wiserforit

I've been driven to the point of screaming by more than one covert aggressive, and finally after study learned how pushing your buttons to make you erupt like a volcano and then saying "Just look at yourself" is the ultimate victory in manipulation: make you angry on purpose and then blame you for being angry.

That is real power over someone. Likewise, making a woman insecure by insinuating she is fat and then commenting on how insecure she is.  

One of the tools I learned by reading is to stay on top of your emotions. When you start to feel anger - that is their intention. When you feel guilty - that is their intention. Instantly recognizing that and saying out loud "you want me to be angry" or "you want me to feel guilty" breaks their control.

One of the important reasons for doing this is that these manipulators never use one bullet. They have them stacked up in clips of three, four, five rounds of ammunition. So they might first call you fat, then attack you for being insecure, then react angrily to your natural instincts to defend - and each time heighten the stress level. Once they have your emotions rolling, it is hard for you to stop the train, and they keep adding steam. 

So if you can learn to stop your emotions from taking over in the first place by instantly recognizing what is happening, you pre-empt this vicious strategy of notching it up with their pre-packaged series of emotional jabs.


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## janefw

Wow. You are all describing men so similar to my husband, it is quite shocking. The same experience with the chores never getting done - and my husband is a SAHD, so he has no excuse - and when I have pushed it and pushed it, then we have ended up paying contractors to do work, but my h rarely follows through. Everything is soooo complicated in this marriage. And he's not interested in sex either, and that seems to be true for a lot of p/a partners.

One thing that I have learned to do is not to 'reward' his worst behaviors. For the longest time (years!) he has gone on about how he should not eat for 2 days because his stomach is upset, and I have always responded with saying concernedly that he shouldn't just stop eating. I realized recently that I am playing into his game by "persuading" him to eat, and then he can moan and complain afterwards that "I knew I shouldn't have eaten" (i.e. it is my fault for telling him he should eat.) So, now, I don't say anything when he says he won't eat. I don't react, I don't even *blink* when he says he isn't going to eat for 2 days, so to all intents and purposes I didn't even hear him. If he says this at dinner time, then I just go in and make dinner for everyone, and I have noticed that he will just make his way in and start eating without saying anything else about it OR he will go in and make dinner anyway and sit and eat it. He has never, in all the time I have known him, ever fasted for even 1 day, so I shouldn't have ever fallen for that in the first place but oh well, you live and learn.


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## janefw

northernlights said:


> Relationship psychology should be a required course in life. So many of us could have run the other way years ago if we knew this was a thing we could be on the lookout for. I think when my daughters hit dating age, I'm going to gather all kinds of books for them about which kinds of men to avoid. If such a book exists.


I am majoring in PSYCH and it was through taking some of my classes that I realized that I feed into a lot of my h's p/a behaviors unintentionally. That's when I stopped validating a lot of his b.s. and started being able to keep my feelings abstracted.


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## Wiserforit

janefw said:


> Wow. You are all describing men so similar to my husband, it is quite shocking. The same experience with the chores never getting done - and my husband is a SAHD, so he has no excuse - and when I have pushed it and pushed it, then we have ended up paying contractors to do work, but my h rarely follows through. Everything is soooo complicated in this marriage.


Mine was a stay at home wife, trying to get pregnant but health problems prevented it.

All she had to do was clean, cook, and pay bills - none of which she could manage without extreme drama. I was making about $120K a year at the time. But every month the bills were late. I hated that, especially all the fees and the stupidity of having money there to pay them and my credit rating suffering from her relentless irresponsibility.

I said I would do them, but she was a master at crying, whining, begging, pleading me to let her do them. I learned this was a classic double-bind: you lose no matter what you do. If you pay the bills you suffer through her drama of having her "job" taken from her, and if you don't pay them you suffer through her drama of being late with bills.

I would have to stand over her, yelling to complete the amount on the check, now write the date, now sign your name, now put it in the envelope, now put the stamp on it... with her sobbing the whole way through it. Because if I left her at the desk alone she would go do something else. 

With the two jobs and coming home exhausted this kind of drama really wiped me out. I discovered her hidden stash of romance novels when I threw her out. It was incredible - boxes and boxes of romance novels. She must have read every one ever written.


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## diwali123

God what a drama queen!


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## Wiserforit

I hate to admit how stupid I was.

She loved making the amount of the check different in the numerical amount vs. the written amount. So she would write $35.92 in numbers, and "Thirty nine and fifty two dollars" in writing - a statement that doesn't even make sense numerically. 

She would also invert the month and day. So instead of 9/12/10 for september 12, 2010 - she would write 12/9/10. 

We would get letters back saying they could not take the check because the amounts did not match or that it was post-dated. Consequently every single stroke of the pen I had to be hyper-vigilant about her sabotage. 

If an important phone call came she made sure not to take enough information for me to call them back. A nine year old can take a proper phone message. "I think his name was Phil... I didn't get the whole telephone number..." This is a woman with a master's degree in engineering.


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## northernlights

diwali123 said:


> Did you address those specific behaviors of his with the doctor? Like leaving the kids unattended?


I did. Both the neuropsychologist and the neurologist said that nothing in his testing accounted for that. The neuropsychologist was the one who suggested counseling for us. 

This was all done abroad, in H's home country, but now we're back in the US, so I'm looking forward to being able to have conversations with the neurologist myself. 

I hate this situation, but at the same time, there's something positive in it. In a sense, he inherited the emotionally distant, passive-aggressive behavior from his parents (his father was an alcoholic, his mother is PA and codependent) in the same way he inherited his processing disorders and perhaps, God forbid, a degenerative neurological condition. Thinking of these things as more similar than different helps me separate the behavior from the person. I really think there'd be a lot of hope for us if he just made some effort to learn other ways to be.


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## SaltInWound

janefw said:


> And he's not interested in sex either, and that seems to be true for a lot of p/a partners.


It isn't that they are not interested. They are withholding to p!ss you off. Just another passive aggressive weapon.


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## diwali123

northernlights said:


> I did. Both the neuropsychologist and the neurologist said that nothing in his testing accounted for that. The neuropsychologist was the one who suggested counseling for us.
> 
> This was all done abroad, in H's home country, but now we're back in the US, so I'm looking forward to being able to have conversations with the neurologist myself.
> 
> I hate this situation, but at the same time, there's something positive in it. In a sense, he inherited the emotionally distant, passive-aggressive behavior from his parents (his father was an alcoholic, his mother is PA and codependent) in the same way he inherited his processing disorders and perhaps, God forbid, a degenerative neurological condition. Thinking of these things as more similar than different helps me separate the behavior from the person. I really think there'd be a lot of hope for us if he just made some effort to learn other ways to be.


I'm just wondering if there is official record of the things he's done that could help you in case of divorce. He sound like he shouldn't be left alone with the kids.


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## diwali123

SaltInWound said:


> It isn't that they are not interested. They are withholding to p!ss you off. Just another passive aggressive weapon.


I didn't really have that issue as much with my ex. We were pretty steady once a week. But it was always on his terms. He wouldn't have sex after work, after he ate for a few hours, or when he just didn't want to.
Sex ended many times when he would get mad that I did or said the wrong thing. I wasn't allowed to touch the back of his head, especially when we were kissing. 
Sex was like a hostage negotiation.


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## VeggieMom

diwali123, we also had regular sex for the first few years-- and the first two it was great! But then the kids came along and he got religious on me and that came into the bedroom, too. Then there were rules-- his rules and those of his newfound religion. And rules about where to touch and where not to . . . don't need to go into details except to say it was a real mood killer. We tried to make it work but I lost interest in that kind of sex. I am honestly not missing it most of the time.


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## diwali123

VeggieMom said:


> diwali123, we also had regular sex for the first few years-- and the first two it was great! But then the kids came along and he got religious on me and that came into the bedroom, too. Then there were rules-- his rules and those of his newfound religion. And rules about where to touch and where not to . . . don't need to go into details except to say it was a real mood killer. We tried to make it work but I lost interest in that kind of sex. I am honestly not missing it most of the time.


One time we went to a sex toy store and bought something and when it came time to use it he got mad. Still don't know why.


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## VeggieMom

By the way, I have had the first peaceful weekend in ages! Usually I try to get out of the house, or schedule work on the weekends. I am still learning but so far the strategies I have learned have helped so, so much! H has spent the whole weekend painting a very (very very) small bathroom to look productive. I could have done it in about 2 hours, but know what? I don't really care. It's been sitting undone for about a month and I never asked him to paint it, he just is trying to prove something to me. Good for him. The big thing is, no arguments this weekend. I did some nice things for myself, nice things with the kids, and it was productive and fulfilling. Still very early in this process but I really think things are improving. At least for me. H is acting nice but like he's been left behind after the starting gun has gone off. Acting kinda lost and confused now that I have removed myself from role of being his co-dependent.


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## VeggieMom

Diwali123, haha! Can so relate! I'm not into those things- not to say I'm boring. He mail ordered this ridiculous thing that would have been very demeaning, and I told him I was not at all interested, he could return it. He knew I was not into those things since the beginning. He then acted hurt. And for once, I did not feel at all guilty.


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## diwali123

VeggieMom said:


> Diwali123, haha! Can so relate! I'm not into those things- not to say I'm boring. He mail ordered this ridiculous thing that would have been very demeaning, and I told him I was not at all interested, he could return it. He knew I was not into those things since the beginning. He then acted hurt. And for once, I did not feel at all guilty.


Oh I picked the toy out! It was the only time he would agree to go a sex toy store. He was so scared we might see someone we knew. Like they would be surprised that we have sex?


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## VeggieMom

diwali123 said:


> Oh I picked the toy out! It was the only time he would agree to go a sex toy store. He was so scared we might see someone we knew. Like they would be surprised that we have sex?


Oh my goodness that brings back a funny memory for me! Well funny and sad. I was about 5 months pregnant with our first child. I asked if he had told his boss and co-workers about the pregnancy yet because he would have to take off some work when the baby came. He said no he hadn't told them yet. I was kinda hurt and asked why? He said, "Because then they would know what we've been doing!!"

:rofl:


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## diwali123

For god's sake! What a child.


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## bailingout

Hi all. I've been watching this thread but have not had time to jump in. In a nutshell, I'm part of the group. I can relate to or have been living almost everything that has been discussed in this thread. I too have decided to stay with what I believe to be a PA H, for now. We have an 8yo D.

I read a quote recently that stuck with me. "We are all broken people living in a broken world." I believe that we are all broken in some ways, some more than others and I would like to be well, less broken. I'm assuming some of you may feel the same way, so together, I hope we can get there. 

As we all know, the only person we can change is ourself. I have read quite a few books in the last year or so that have helped me become a little "less broken." IMO. I thought I would share them. They have helped me greatly, in many ways. I hope you will find them useful in your life as well.

Toxic Parents (explains how our parents effect us as adults. And helped me realize my stage of recovery as I was raised in a unhealthy environemnt)
Toxic Men (recognizing them, is my H one?)
Why Does he do that? (explains alot)
Should I stay or should I go? (accd to this, I should go)
Co-dependent no more (making sure I am not co-depen)
Walking on eggshells (wow)
Living with a passive aggressive man (lol)
Dance of Anger (helpful for ALL relationships)
Not just friends (affairs are not an issue for us but wanted to make sure I had appropriate boundaries w OSF)

The next 2 I will read are
In sheeps clothing- dealing with manipulative people
The verbally abusive relationship.

I'm sure some of you have read some of them already or know of them. I wanted to compile a list in case you had not heard of some of them before. Look forward to any additional ones that you may have read also.

I thought about starting a new thread with these but decided not to as there are many who are in the same position. I wasn't sure if everyone here would see the new thread. 

My apoligies in advance if I have offended anyone or if anyone feels I hi-jacked this thread.


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## SaltInWound

Does anyone's PA spouse have any addictions or other impulse problems that have greatly interfered in daily life/marriage?


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## diwali123

I have read most of those books. They are excellent. 
I would like to share a few funny things. Well they are funny looking back. I had talked to my h for years about his PA issues but it just made him worse. I got "living with the PA man" but never showed it to him. 
We got into a fight one day and I was feeling PA myself, and left that book out where he had to see it. I came home and the book was in the middle of the yard. 

He refused to get his stuff out of our house after we filed. So I took all my relationship books about abusive/PA men and put them randomly among his boxes of books. It's been five years and he has never mentioned it,


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## diwali123

SaltInWound said:


> Does anyone's PA spouse have any addictions or other impulse problems that have greatly interfered in daily life/marriage?


He is a pot head.


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## Wonderinginnc

I see a lot of my relationship with my husband in these posts. I have been practicing many of the techniques talked about: making myself happy, doing what I want to do, etc. Most of the time it works, but we are now engaged in a battle over a stupid chocolate syrup bottle, and I am beginning to doubt my sanity (and questioning if I have passive aggressive tendencies too).

Background: I do about 85% of the housework. Husband does 3 chores without prompting (his laundry, empty the dishwasher and take out trash). After numerous discussions, he finally told me that he was never going to volunteer to do more in the house, that I would have to ask him to do something, and then he would decide if he would do it or not. I've tried to talk with him about why he insists on this, but it works for him, because he knows I never ask for help (it's a flaw I'm trying to work on). 

He leaves empty trash on the counter (ice cream cartons, etc.) I've told him repeatedly that I feel like he thinks I am a maid, that my only job is to clean up after him, when he does that. He says I make too big a deal out of this, that all I have to do is throw it away, it's not that hard (if it isn't that hard, then why doesn't he do it?) Anyway, last week, he finished a bottle of chocolate syrup and left it on the counter. I decided I would not throw it away. I've cleaned up the kitchen around the bottle and left it out. He's put items next to the bottle, then thrown them out, leaving the bottle. It feels like a stupid battle, and yet an deciding one: If I give in, then I will be spending the rest of my life cleaning up after him. If I talk with him about it, then he's just going to use it as an opportunity to tell me that I make stupid things a big deal. 

I want some suggestions, even if those suggestions are "throw the damn bottle away."


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## diwali123

It is very common for the spouse of a PA person to start becoming PA too. 
Maybe this is PA, but maybe if he wants to treat you like a maid, start taking a certain amount of money for yourself for every item he refuses to throw away.


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## SaltInWound

Wonderinginnc said:


> I see a lot of my relationship with my husband in these posts. I have been practicing many of the techniques talked about: making myself happy, doing what I want to do, etc. Most of the time it works, but we are now engaged in a battle over a stupid chocolate syrup bottle, and I am beginning to doubt my sanity (and questioning if I have passive aggressive tendencies too).
> 
> Background: I do about 85% of the housework. Husband does 3 chores without prompting (his laundry, empty the dishwasher and take out trash). After numerous discussions, he finally told me that he was never going to volunteer to do more in the house, that I would have to ask him to do something, and then he would decide if he would do it or not. I've tried to talk with him about why he insists on this, but it works for him, because he knows I never ask for help (it's a flaw I'm trying to work on).
> 
> He leaves empty trash on the counter (ice cream cartons, etc.) I've told him repeatedly that I feel like he thinks I am a maid, that my only job is to clean up after him, when he does that. He says I make too big a deal out of this, that all I have to do is throw it away, it's not that hard (if it isn't that hard, then why doesn't he do it?) Anyway, last week, he finished a bottle of chocolate syrup and left it on the counter. I decided I would not throw it away. I've cleaned up the kitchen around the bottle and left it out. He's put items next to the bottle, then thrown them out, leaving the bottle. It feels like a stupid battle, and yet an deciding one: If I give in, then I will be spending the rest of my life cleaning up after him. If I talk with him about it, then he's just going to use it as an opportunity to tell me that I make stupid things a big deal.
> 
> I want some suggestions, even if those suggestions are "throw the damn bottle away."


It is a test. Don't fall for it. Let it stay there. Don't say a word. Don't look at it when he is in the room. Don't touch it and don't let him see you wiping the counter around it. Don't let on that it is bothering you. Show zero emotion. He thinks the longer it sits there, the more frustrated you will become and one day it is going to build too much pressure and you will explode. And he will have achieved his goal, which is to point out your anger problem and how it has gotten so out of control that you snap over trash. If one day the bottle disappears, say absolutely nothing. Show no emotion. That is how I would handle it. It might not be the right way, and maybe it is passive aggressive. I don't really know. He is leaving it there on purpose and you know that. It is a test.


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## SaltInWound

diwali123 said:


> It is very common for the spouse of a PA person to start becoming PA too.
> Maybe this is PA, but maybe if he wants to treat you like a maid, start taking a certain amount of money for yourself for every item he refuses to throw away.


Can a passive aggressive person recognize when someone is acting passive aggressive toward them?


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## diwali123

Mine knew when he was being PA. He just didn't think there was anything wrong with it and would act more PA to spite me. Then he would accuse me of being PA and say I was the one with the problem.


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## diwali123

SaltInWound said:


> It is a test. Don't fall for it. Let it stay there. Don't say a word. Don't look at it when he is in the room. Don't touch it and don't let him see you wiping the counter around it. Don't let on that it is bothering you. Show zero emotion. He thinks the longer it sits there, the more frustrated you will become and one day it is going to build too much pressure and you will explode. And he will have achieved his goal, which is to point out your anger problem and how it has gotten so out of control that you snap over trash. If one day the bottle disappears, say absolutely nothing. Show no emotion. That is how I would handle it. It might not be the right way, and maybe it is passive aggressive. I don't really know. He is leaving it there on purpose and you know that. It is a test.


 One Halloween we had Jack o lanterns in our window. I asked him if he would throw them away after. He let them get moldy and gross. I put them in a trash bag and asked him to please take them out on trash day. 
We lived in a second story apartment. He let the bag sit there until you could smell it. 
I asked him again. He opened the window and set it out on the roof. 
It sat there for ten months.


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## Wiserforit

Wonderinginnc said:


> He's put items next to the bottle, then thrown them out, leaving the bottle. It feels like a stupid battle, and yet an deciding one: If I give in, then I will be spending the rest of my life cleaning up after him. If I talk with him about it, then he's just going to use it as an opportunity to tell me that I make stupid things a big deal.
> 
> I want some suggestions, even if those suggestions are "throw the damn bottle away."


The problem with trying to out-manipulate a manipulator is that they are zealots and go down fighting to the insane bitter end.

What works better is to give them choices that have enforceable consequences. You know your life situation best, so you can select them best. 

This sort of thing is ideal for them because in reality it is a much larger issue of cleaning up in general, but they engineer it to look like it is a single chocolate container. So therefore you appear to be unreasonable. But the very fact they would do so proves the kind of malicious cunning involved. 

This tactic is called the double-bind, by the way: no matter what you do, you lose. If you throw it away, you have conceded and you lose. If you leave it there, it is an annoyance and you lose. Manipulators are constantly on the lookout for double-binds to spring upon you. 

What the double-bind does is create stress. That is the whole point. Stress weakens you. It grinds you down. Makes you easier to manipulate out of sheer exhaustion and confusion. See how conflicted you are? That's why he is doing it.

Telling him you know exactly what he is up to helps. They hate the white heat of truth shining upon their evil intentions. Avoiding direct discussion about it lets them inflict the pain without being held accountable.


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## janefw

Oh, my h, he would pull the trash bag with the trash out of our bathroom trash bin, and then just leave it in the bathroom. Like - that's the job done right there .. so I left it and left it .. and then one day I got truly fed up and put it in his sink. He had a FIT. I mean, he just yelled and yelled, but I will say that 99% of the time he brings the trash bag downstairs now. 

It's not an issue that he 'should' bring the trash bag down, but really, why take it out of the trash bin and then just leave it? In the past, I had brought it down and put it outside, but what the heck? It's like the stupid milk jug that he finishes and then leaves on the counter even though the recycling bin is 20 feet away. I take the lid off and then leave it where it is. It takes him about 2 days but then he starts complaining about the smell, and I point him in the direction of the milk jug. Then he usually says "why does nobody throw it away?" To which I respond "I don't know. Why didn't *you* throw it away?" and then walk away before he starts ranting.


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## diwali123

My ex used to insist that trash was his job and then would only take it out on the back patio. I would put up a post it before trash day and he would ignore it. 
There were times the whole back patio was full of trash bags. 
Thank god that night mare is over.


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## Wiserforit

janefw said:


> Oh, my h, he would pull the trash bag with the trash out of our bathroom trash bin, and then just leave it in the bathroom. Like - that's the job done right there .. so I left it and left it .. and then one day I got truly fed up and put it in his sink. He had a FIT. I mean, he just yelled and yelled, but I will say that 99% of the time he brings the trash bag downstairs now.


This is what I mean about giving them choices that have meaningful consequences. 



> It's not an issue that he 'should' bring the trash bag down, but really, why take it out of the trash bin and then just leave it?


Because this is war. Note again that this is all covert, not saying openly and above-board what he is up to. It is a guarantee that if you call him on it and make him explain you are going to get a lie. Like "I don't know" or some B.S. excuse. It is to get in your craw, but trying to do so in a way that has plausible deniability. 

I had a renter that was an old college friend who was a genius at showing up just as the last piece of wood was being stacked on the pile, to pretend that he participated. I started calling him "flag boy": for coming in at the last moment, carrying a flag as if he was participating in the battle. 

If I made him carry wood inside the house, he would stack it in front of the stove doors so that the wood pile had to be moved in order to open the stove doors. He knew exactly what he was doing. The problem is there are a thousand ways to sabotage, and you can't think of them all. So it is impossible to give instructions to a dedicated mercinary like this and avoid all his potential means of getting in your face. 

If he was involved with something, he made sure to create more work than having him not involved at all. He was standing between me and my utility knife once, blocking me from grabbing it. So I asked him to hand me the knife so I could cut this piece of foam insulation. Instead of handing it to me, he started taking it apart. 

Look how I am helping you: I am going to change the blade on this knife and make you wait on me while I fumble around and screw it up when all you asked me to do was hand it to you. 

These personalities hate being "told what to do". So whatever instruction you give, no matter how reasonable, is putting them beneath you. Hence the need to sabotage. The only effective means of preventing it is imposing penalties that force them to choose doing what you ask. 

But living with people like that is like living with autism. It doesn't ever go away and requires constant effort to deal with.


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## bailingout

SaltInWound said:


> Can a passive aggressive person recognize when someone is acting passive aggressive toward them?


I don't know. I guess they could if they both shared an identical view of what PA is to begin with, but I would guess that's highly unlikely. What would be the odd of 2 separate people seeing the same thing in the identical manner. Even kids raised in the same house have very different views on many things. 

I never mentioned PA to H. I don't see the point, he won't get it because his view of PA is different than mine. In fact, we are so far off the scale opposites on basic definitions, that I don't attempt to discuss any of it. I use actions instead.

Look at it in simple terms, if your parent tell lies, when you get old enough to learn about lying, your parent will likely be the one to teach you what a lie is. Do you think a parent who lies will tell the kid the true definition of a lie? No. The will give them a modified version in order to continue to cover up their lies. Of course the kid won't know this, so their definition of a lie becomes a modified version, it becomes their view and they believe what they were taught. No amount of telling them otherwise will change that. 

Let's look at PA behavior. I think we will mostly agree that PA people do not know they are PA. Why is that. It's simple, if you were raised by a PA parent, they taught you what they learned (probably by their own PA parent), so your definiton of PA is what you were taught. Is it the real defninition or a modified one?

Oh boy. Gotta love PA. lol

As for the chocolate bottle, just throw it out. Figure out a way to solve the problem, not be a part of it going forward.


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## diwali123

Wiserforit said:


> This is what I mean about giving them choices that have meaningful consequences.
> 
> 
> 
> Because this is war. Note again that this is all covert, not saying openly and above-board what he is up to. It is a guarantee that if you call him on it and make him explain you are going to get a lie. Like "I don't know" or some B.S. excuse. It is to get in your craw, but trying to do so in a way that has plausible deniability.
> 
> I had a renter that was an old college friend who was a genius at showing up just as the last piece of wood was being stacked on the pile, to pretend that he participated. I started calling him "flag boy": for coming in at the last moment, carrying a flag as if he was participating in the battle.
> 
> If I made him carry wood inside the house, he would stack it in front of the stove doors so that the wood pile had to be moved in order to open the stove doors. He knew exactly what he was doing. The problem is there are a thousand ways to sabotage, and you can't think of them all. So it is impossible to give instructions to a dedicated mercinary like this and avoid all his potential means of getting in your face.
> 
> If he was involved with something, he made sure to create more work than having him not involved at all. He was standing between me and my utility knife once, blocking me from grabbing it. So I asked him to hand me the knife so I could cut this piece of foam insulation. Instead of handing it to me, he started taking it apart.
> 
> Look how I am helping you: I am going to change the blade on this knife and make you wait on me while I fumble around and screw it up when all you asked me to do was hand it to you.
> 
> These personalities hate being "told what to do". So whatever instruction you give, no matter how reasonable, is putting them beneath you. Hence the need to sabotage. The only effective means of preventing it is imposing penalties that force them to choose doing what you ask.
> 
> But living with people like that is like living with autism. It doesn't ever go away and requires constant effort to deal with.


I hate to say it, but this is war. And you are right. After a while it becomes so exhausting that it isn't worth it anymore. 
I remember reading that most people will go through 13 cycles with a PA spouse of wanting to leave, and finding a way to stay before they leave. 
I thought no way would he let it get to that point. No way would he let our marriage be destroyed. 
But he did.


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## SaltInWound

Wiserforit said:


> These personalities hate being "told what to do".


In our earlier years, my husband would reply often with "I'm a big boy. I can do what I want". You know, that did not have much meaning back then, but now that I understand PA better, the reference to being a "big boy" is very significant.


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## Wiserforit

diwali123 said:


> My ex used to insist that trash was his job and then would only take it out on the back patio.


Another example of the double-bind. Doing it yourself infringes upon their sacred duty. But having them do it means it doesn't get done.

Here is one that boggles the mind: I had this renter, who had sabotaged my construction of a separate rental unit for him and he was still living in the main house when my wife immigrated.

He was a pig beyond description, which was no problem with two bachelors. Both of us left dirty dishes out until we needed to actually use them. Right before my wife moved in he started doing something really bizarre: he started boiling water on the stove to do his dishes, and keeping a separate sponge in the freezer. He made a big show about this, making sure to do it when I was doing something in the kitchen so I could see.

I thought it was weird, but said nothing. So when my wife moved in one of the things she doesn't like is going to bed with dirty dishes on the counter. So she tried to do them. But he complained. Nobody was allowed to do his dishes except him, and even if she boiled the water and used his special frozen sponge, that wasn't good enough. 

This was hardly his only aggravating behavior, and I had to evict him. He refused to leave. Heh. Another double-bind.


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## diwali123

The worst example of his PA hurting both of us: 
After a horrible trip to his family for Xmas, I wanted to stop on the back and exchange gifts real quick with my family. 
They lived two hours away from us and I didn't know when we would be back. 
Our d was sick and not even a year old but I didn't think driving 15 minutes off our path would be a big deal. 

He kept saying it was fine and then pouting, giving me the silent treatment, and finding other ways to punish me. 
He got off the highway and started to get lost. He started going off on me for wanting to go even though he had said all day it was ok. 
I couldn't take it anymore. I told him to pull over and I would drive and would find a place to call my mom and tell her we wouldn't be coming. 
So he stops. I get out of the back with our d and go around to the driver seat. He slams the back door. 
I was livid. I drive to a gas station and call my mom from the pay phone saying we are too tired to make it, 

I go back in the car and he's just gone. 
I couldn't believe he would leave our d alone in the car. So I wait. Eventually this turned into a block by block search by the cops, my parents coming to the gas station and me panicking. 
Finally we find out he called my mom's house and left a message with my step sister about where he was. 
Turns out when we switched drivers he never got in the car. He just slammed the door and stood there. 
And I was so used to the silent treatment and was so irate I didn't even look back. 
So he was standing out in the cold with no coat waiting for me to pick him up for about an hour.


----------



## DaytoDay

Here's my example... 
In our early years, I liked to do float trips (canoes), my H liked to motor boat (skiing.) Somehow, my float trips always got missed when H planned the social calendar (he's much more social, I'm more of a loner.) Finally, after about 6 years, I said, "I will only go boating with you if you go floating with me. My float trip needs to be on the calendar before I go boating with you once." So H put it on the calendar and I went boating with him all summer. When the fall rolled around and it was time for my float trip, H suddenly canceled it and replaced it with a boating weekend because "It's the only weekend the Barrett family can go boating with us, and it's an annual tradition. I've already talked with them and made plans." (*said with pathetic puppy dog face*) At the time, I was still being initiated into his PA behavior and let him run over my plans.

Looking back, I wish I would have not said anything, but simply let him assume I was going along, then departed in front of him and our friends for my original plans of floating, saying "Sorry, I've had this on my calendar for 6 months. I realize this was the only weekend you had open, but it actually wasn't open for us. Mark put it on the calendar when he committed to go with me if I spent all summer going boating with him. He changed his plans, but I never said I was changing mine. I've waited 6 years for this already. But I hope you all have a great day! I know I will!" And then simply driven off.


----------



## DaytoDay

Another example:
I mentioned that I thought we should start thinking about replacing our aging van, the one I drove, some time in the next 6-12 months. Of course, H jumps right on it because he LOVES to buy vehicles. He asked what I wanted, and I said I really didn't care except for one absolute necessity -- it had to have rear air conditioning because I was always driving around our young son and it was simply too hot in the back without it.

So H starts shopping, I keep reminding him we're not in a rush, that it's more important to take our time and get what we want. He gets home one day about a week after I first mentioned it and asks me to come outside. I go outside and in the driveway is a van. I asked if it had rear air conditioning. H replies, "No, but....." and I just walked off. He knew I was pissed, but he claims he didn't do anything wrong, because "he didn't buy it, just brought it home for my consideration."

Always, always innocent, no matter what the offense.


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## diwali123

I think maybe I should stay out of this discussion because all I keep thinking is that you all need to make plans to leave these guys.


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## DaytoDay

I'm on a roll! And to think I actually said I thought he wasn't P/A...

I go into H's email to look for things he's watching on ebay to get ideas for a birthday gift for him. I stumble across an odd email. I look closer and discover that he's been emailing his college sweetheart (from 40 years ago) and deleting the email trail. Unfortunately for him, he's just not very competent and he forgot to empty his trash folder so the trail was pretty easy to uncover.

I confronted him about it. He denied adamantly that he was doing anything wrong. Really, then why hide it? Claimed *I* was being unreasonable, that he was just catching up with an old friend, that it wasn't any big deal because she lives 3 states away, and the fact that she was recently D'd meant nothing.

Then he piles it on by claiming that I'm not a good Christian W, that I need to be more forgiving; that our M can't survive if I can't just let it go; that, no, we don't need counseling because he didn't do anything wrong and nothing happened anyway, and why am I making such a big deal of it?

Always, always, I'm "making mountains out of mole hills," no matter what the offense.


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## DaytoDay

Diwali123, I have a 5-year plan already. Just making the best of things until then for my son's sake.


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## northernlights

Hm, I'm trying to think of ways my H has hurt himself with his PA behavior, and it's hard. Me and the kids, I have tons of examples, but himself... this one's trickier.

I'm not sure if him telling me I had 6 months to apply for my visa when I really only had 3 was PA or just him being him. That cost us a ton of money in fines and changed plans (the girls and I had to leave the country and head home months ahead of time, it was NOT easy!). But I really don't know if that was intentional or not.


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## diwali123

SlowCreek.NoPaddle said:


> Diwali123, I have a 5-year plan already. Just making the best of things until then for my son's sake.


Good for you.


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## diwali123

SlowCreek.NoPaddle said:


> I'm on a roll! And to think I actually said I thought he wasn't P/A...
> 
> I go into H's email to look for things he's watching on ebay to get ideas for a birthday gift for him. I stumble across an odd email. I look closer and discover that he's been emailing his college sweetheart (from 40 years ago) and deleting the email trail. Unfortunately for him, he's just not very competent and he forgot to empty his trash folder so the trail was pretty easy to uncover.
> 
> I confronted him about it. He denied adamantly that he was doing anything wrong. Really, then why hide it? Claimed *I* was being unreasonable, that he was just catching up with an old friend, that it wasn't any big deal because she lives 3 states away, and the fact that she was recently D'd meant nothing.
> 
> Then he piles it on by claiming that I'm not a good Christian W, that I need to be more forgiving; that our M can't survive if I can't just let it go; that, no, we don't need counseling because he didn't do anything wrong and nothing happened anyway, and why am I making such a big deal of it?
> 
> Always, always, I'm "making mountains out of mole hills," no matter what the offense.


If he did nothing wrong why do you need to forgive him?


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## northernlights

One time I was feeling really sick and told H he'd have to make dinner, I just couldn't do it. He said fine.

When dinner was ready, I dragged myself out of bed and sat down at the table. He said, "oh, you're eating? I didn't make enough for you."

GRR! I'm very thin, my BMI is always right on the line between underweight and normal weight, and only stays in the normal category with a lot of effort. Even when I'm sick, I NEVER skip meals. He knows this, or should. I was so angry at him. It's nowhere near the first time he's punished me for being sick, too.


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## diwali123

He would agree to go spend the day at my parents' house: then would stay up until 3 a.m. Then he would go lay down in the bedroom for most of the visit because he was too tired. 
I was so embarrassed. 

He would take empty pizza boxes and put them in the oven. Next time I turned the oven on it would be a mess. I told him to please throw them out. He would insist the oven is a perfectly normal place to store trash. And it should be my job to check the oven every time before turning it on.


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## DaytoDay

I think I understand now why I've never been able to let these things go. It was my subconscious that kept sending up memories of giant red flags to help me understand what was really going on here, to protect me going forward.

Just curious on some other points that appear P/A to me....

-My H apologizes infinitely, yet never actually changes the behavior that he's apologizing for.
-H can commit exactly the same offensive act, with the exception of the noun (cat vs. dog), yet defend and justify his behavior endlessly because "it's different, and he didn't know."
-He has an entire library of relationship books, carries one around in his car or brief case, meets with other guys (accountability partners) to discuss the state of his M, yet still claims he has absolutely NO IDEA what to do to meet my needs. Yet I can open any book to a random page and find at least one or two things specific to our sitch. At the same time, he claims he's the only one working on the relationship because at least he's reading books and I'm not.


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## diwali123

He wore me down so much I just wanted 24 hours to myself in my own home. And I made the mistake of telling him this. He would plan over night float trips with friends and come home a day early. He knew it drove me crazy.


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## DaytoDay

diwali123, I believe you should plan the next 24 hours alone AT A SPA!


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## diwali123

SlowCreek.NoPaddle said:


> I think I understand now why I've never been able to let these things go. It was my subconscious that kept sending up memories of giant red flags to help me understand what was really going on here, to protect me going forward.
> 
> Just curious on some other points that appear P/A to me....
> 
> -My H apologizes infinitely, yet never actually changes the behavior that he's apologizing for.
> -H can commit exactly the same offensive act, with the exception of the noun (cat vs. dog), yet defend and justify his behavior endlessly because "it's different, and he didn't know."
> -He has an entire library of relationship books, carries one around in his car or brief case, meets with other guys (accountability partners) to discuss the state of his M, yet still claims he has absolutely NO IDEA what to do to meet my needs. Yet I can open any book to a random page and find at least one or two things specific to our sitch. At the same time, he claims he's the only one working on the relationship because at least he's reading books and I'm not.


He's full of shït on all three of those. The third is very insidious. I would call that the height of PA. It's designed to make it look like he is trying without trying. Which is the epitome of PA. 
Who are these accountability partners?


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## diwali123

SlowCreek.NoPaddle said:


> diwali123, I believe you should plan the next 24 hours alone AT A SPA!


No no no this is my EX husband!!! I am only posting here to possible help other people stuck in PA relationships. 
I finally had enough. I'm now married to a very nice, kind, sane man.  

But I still have to deal with the ex because of my daughter.


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## bailingout

SlowCreek.NoPaddle said:


> Here's my example...
> In our early years, I liked to do float trips (canoes), my H liked to motor boat (skiing.) Somehow, my float trips always got missed when H planned the social calendar (he's much more social, I'm more of a loner.) Finally, after about 6 years, I said, "I will only go boating with you if you go floating with me. My float trip needs to be on the calendar before I go boating with you once." So H put it on the calendar and I went boating with him all summer. When the fall rolled around and it was time for my float trip, H suddenly canceled it and replaced it with a boating weekend because "It's the only weekend the Barrett family can go boating with us, and it's an annual tradition. I've already talked with them and made plans." (*said with pathetic puppy dog face*) At the time, I was still being initiated into his PA behavior and let him run over my plans.
> 
> Looking back, I wish I would have not said anything, but simply let him assume I was going along, then departed in front of him and our friends for my original plans of floating, saying "Sorry, I've had this on my calendar for 6 months. I realize this was the only weekend you had open, but it actually wasn't open for us. Mark put it on the calendar when he committed to go with me if I spent all summer going boating with him. He changed his plans, but I never said I was changing mine. I've waited 6 years for this already. But I hope you all have a great day! I know I will!" And then simply driven off.


SCNP- I can understand your frustration. Your example screams controlling to me, not PA. Disclosure here--that is MY opinion. I am not an expert on any of it. 

Here are a few things you may want to investigate.
1. Is it controlling or PA or both?

2. This comment _I will only go boating with you if you go floating with me_. This seems conditional to me. If you like canoing and he doesn't, find someone else to canoe with and do it. If he likes motoring and you don't, let him go motoring without you. If you want to go motoring with him, then go, but don't do it with the expectation that HE does what you want. It is ok for 2 people to have different interests as long as you can come to an agreement that they don't overpower the things you do together. 

Here's an ex: My H doesn't like to go to the movies. I do. I used to get hurt that he didn't want go to a movie with me (rejection) so I wouldn't go to the movies. I was allowing his refusal to go to the movies prevent me from doing something I wanted to do....I was basically allowing him to control what I did. I got tired of it so I found someone else to go to the movies with or I went alone. He was pissed every time. He was angry because I was not allowing him to control what I did so he would punish me for days, sulking, making plans to go somewhere with a friend without me, little comments here and there about how I didn't want to spend time with him or that a movie was more important, silent treatment etc aka PA behavior. I would try to get him to look at my point of view or explain why HE THOUGHT it was so wrong of me. He wouldn't communicate. I was co dependent and allowed myself to be controlled. So I asked myself a simple question, Is going to the movies by myself or with a friend disrespectful to my spouse or my marriage. No, it's not. The next time I went to the movies, he started the same crap, only this time I didn't try to change his opinion, I didn't try to get him to understand mine or try to get him to communicate in any way. I looked at him straight faced and said in a calm, rational, respectful tone..."there is nothing wrong with me going to the movies alone or with a friend. If you want to be mad about it, go ahead, it's your problem" and I walked out. When I returned, I could tell by his body language and expressions that he was still pissed, I started talking to him like the whole incident didn't exist. Once he realized I was no longer allowing his behavior to affect me (not reacting to his outbursts or being ignored or reasoning with him), no longer allowing him to control what I did (did what I wanted to do regardless as long as it wasn't innapropriate or unfair) and when I stopped justifying reasonable things I did to avoid him getting mad at me (co dependent), he quit the PA crap. 

As for your 2nd paragraph this is how I would have handled it based on what I believe now. I would have simply told him prior to the trip that I would be happy to go to on the trip together (it sounds like you go to the same water hole) but that I would be going canoing when I got there. Upon arrival, I would have explained to our friends by saying, I'm sorry I'm not going motoring because I've been looking forward to canoeing all summer so I will hook up with you guys later. Have a great time. I would have said all of this in the nicest, most respectful, smiley face tone I could you could have imagined and went on my way. When I returned, I would be up, happy, fun to be around, tell them about my canoeing (if they asked), and inquired as to how their day went.

I hope you can find something useful in this post. Good luck.


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## DaytoDay

Oh, sorry, Diwali123, out of context. I'm so glad your situation has improved. Having to deal with my H in a D situation is one of the main reasons I'm putting off leaving. If he's this dysfunctional in a M situation, I can only imagine how difficult he would be in D interactions.


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## DaytoDay

BailingOut, I think my H's behavior leans more toward P/A behavior, though P/A behavior is simply a form of control. He realizes he doesn't have a leg to stand on in regards to preventing me from doing my interests. So after that incident, he started doing what he committed to do with me, but then made it a miserable experience so that I never asked him to go again. I think what he didn't count on was that neither did I have any interest any longer in doing his things with HIM. By that point, I was no longer the insecure, submissive W he married. Nowadays, he does his thing and I do mine, and we do almost nothing together, and if we do, it's something where I don't really even have to spend time with him.

I very much wish I could turn back time and respond like you described. That is exactly what I had in mind.


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## gettingout

Some book recommendations if you want to stay:
The Gaslight Effect by Dr. Robin Stern
The Journal of Best Practices: A Memoir of Marriage, Asperger Syndrome, and One's Man's Quest to be a Better Husband by David Finch

or, if someone decides to be like me:

Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone With Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder

To the OP - you say people in your community say he's a great guy. I am not telling you to split. Only you can decide what is best for you. I ultimately made my decision when I saw how our relationship was affecting our child, and how his behavior was hurting the child, badly (of course now that CS negotiations are under way he's trying to be Dad of the Year). 
What I am trying to say is that weird is weird, and that if you someday do decide to leave, do not be surprised, and steel yourself for embarrassment, to hear examples of not-so-great-guy behavior when you weren't always around, or people congratulating you on your decision.

I can relate to all the examples that are here.

Peace, ladies (and gents)


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## diwali123

SlowCreek.NoPaddle said:


> Oh, sorry, Diwali123, out of context. I'm so glad your situation has improved. Having to deal with my H in a D situation is one of the main reasons I'm putting off leaving. If he's this dysfunctional in a M situation, I can only imagine how difficult he would be in D interactions.


Yes it was pretty bad. He tried to make my life hell. But I got away from him, and he screwed himself over in a lot of ways. 
He was abusive in other ways and had a pot problem, was a liar and had a serious medical condition he refused to deal with.


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## DaytoDay

Last one...

H is very HD, I am medium drive. H claims he could never get enough, I'm more moderate.

I found my sex life with H rather unsatisfying, literally. In an attempt to get H to "man up" after another particularly unsatisfying round, I told him that we were "on" the next night. But this time, since he knew he had the green light, I wanted him to come to me "like a man that knew what he wanted and would not be denied." I wanted to literally smell the testosterone in the air, and by the time he was finished, know that I had been completely owned by him.

So the next night, H comes to bed, knows he's on, does his regular routine. I'm stunned, having looked forward the entire day to what the evening had in store, giggling to myself all day that H was probably tied behind his desk with a woody. I delicately asked H if that was his effort to my request, sensitive to his manly ego.

He said he had forgotten.


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## diwali123

Yes they all have early onset Alzheimer's.


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## northernlights

diwali123 said:


> Yes they all have early onset Alzheimer's.


It's so nice to have people who truly understand why I made H see a neurologist.


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## diwali123

My ex has a severe thyroid disorder that mimics mental illness. I swear he has brain damage. 
That and the pot don't help. 
I have tried everything to keep her safe. Thank god she has been safe so far regardless of the idiotic things he has done...keeping a cat when he found out she was allergic and asthmatic, taking her up on his roof, having her lie for him, letting his gf drive her around when she can't pass the driver test, refusing to get his AC fixed and thinking its ok to have her in his car for hours in 105 degree heat (with asthma), that's just the beginning.


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## bailingout

SlowCreek.NoPaddle said:


> BailingOut, I think my H's behavior leans more toward P/A behavior, though P/A behavior is simply a form of control. He realizes he doesn't have a leg to stand on in regards to preventing me from doing my interests. So after that incident, he started doing what he committed to do with me, but then made it a miserable experience so that I never asked him to go again. I think what he didn't count on was that neither did I have any interest any longer in doing his things with HIM. By that point, I was no longer the insecure, submissive W he married. Nowadays, he does his thing and I do mine, and we do almost nothing together, and if we do, it's something where I don't really even have to spend time with him.
> 
> I very much wish I could turn back time and respond like you described. That is exactly what I had in mind.


I think we would all agree whether it's PA or controlling doesnt really matter. It's a tangled web either way and a miserable one to be caught up in. 

i am glad that you are able to do thinks you like to do without much trouble. It is good for you and him to be able to do your own thing, but it is equally important to do things together so the kids see that also. 

I too have decided to stay for our D, at least for now. My biggest concern would be the long term effect on her views of marriage as well as how couples interact with each other regularly. I decided that in order to make it as healthy as possible, I had to do most of the work. I too have had times where the last place I wanted to be on earth was anywhere near H, but I believe that is sending the wrong message to our D. Now I try to do keep a healthier balance so she MAY get a fractional view of how married people live together and do things as families. It's been very difficult.

I saw in an earlier post that I think you asked "has anyone been able to reconnect emotionally to their PA spouse" or something like that, and I can answer that as a yes. It is a very slight connection, a pin hole, but it is there. Truth be told, that surprised the crap out of me when I realized it as I was completely gone. I just felt it one day unexpectedly and completly out of the nowhere. That leads me to believe that what I am doing is helping. It may be a sloooowwww process and only a pin hole of a connection, but it's a start. Only time will tell how we end up. 

OH, for what it's worth, we have sex maybe twice a month, other than that, there is barely any physical contact. Maybe a quick peck if either of us are feeling the pin hole at the moment, but some days, none. I'm ok w/ that for now.

Good luck in your journey.


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## gettingout

diwali123 said:


> My ex has a severe thyroid disorder that mimics mental illness. I swear he has brain damage.
> That and the pot don't help.
> I have tried everything to keep her safe. Thank god she has been safe so far regardless of the idiotic things he has done...keeping a cat when he found out she was allergic and asthmatic, taking her up on his roof, having her lie for him, letting his gf drive her around when she can't pass the driver test, refusing to get his AC fixed and thinking its ok to have her in his car for hours in 105 degree heat (with asthma), that's just the beginning.


FYI I have been following your posts on these and other threads. AFTER our child's asthma diagnosis (and mine) and my migraines and with him being overweight and having sleep apnea, guess who decided it would be a good idea to take up cigar smoking on a regular basis?
Were our spouses the same person?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## diwali123

Are you still married?


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## deejov

SaltInWound said:


> Does anyone's PA spouse have any addictions or other impulse problems that have greatly interfered in daily life/marriage?


My H is an alcoholic. Addictions go hand in hand.
He's been not drinking for almost 4 months now (I think) but not over the wanting to go solve his problems by drinking. If anything, his behaviors got much worse when he stopped.


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## deejov

I am realising something this weekend.

My H is figuring out that he needs me, I don't need him.
It was a bang up PA freak show today. 
Consequences all around.

He now knows that I mean it. I got nothing to lose. A world to gain by leaving. 

I still get upset by the crap, and it makes me fume for awhile. 
But I'm getting better at tossing it off quicker.
Can't touch me. Mwah.


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## AVR1962

It's nice to know I am not alone but at the same time I look at my life and wonder if this is how I want to continue to live. Also curious as to whether any of you married to a PA have noticed any very strange behaviors like almost obsessive type behaviors? My husband picks up other people habits, normally very irritating habits. Mostly recently, his doctor has a very specific way of washing her hands which is quite vigorously and very noisy, well he is now washing his hands that way and never did before.

Another thing my husband does that may or may not be related to PA is he likes to antagonize people. The man is 50 yet he will walk stopping his feet behind someone to try and scare them, or hide and then jump around the corner to try and spook a person. He takes liter plastic bottles when empty and then scrunches them up so they make this very irritating noise. He was doing this stuff at home and I asked him to stop so he started doing it at work, one of his coworkers mentioned this at a dinner we all attended. The guy's wife looked shocked, asked husband if he minded the actions and the guys admitted he found them irritating. He said it very nicely and husband agreed at he would stop. But this is just it. He gets great pleasure in someone displeasure and purposely does these things knowing their are unpleasant.


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## SaltInWound

AVR1962 said:


> My husband picks up other people habits, normally very irritating habits. Mostly recently, his doctor has a very specific way of washing her hands which is quite vigorously and very noisy, well he is now washing his hands that way and never did before.


PAs are chameleons. They have no self identity. They want to be accepted to gain validation that they can't provide themselves, so they morph into their target. Think about how he speaks to people. Does he change his dialect? Does he start using an accent when speaking to someone who has an accent? Does he use different words/slang because someone else uses those same words? It is much like the person who is in a new relationship who suddenly starts eating a food they always claimed to hate......just because their new love interest eats that food. 



AVR1962 said:


> Another thing my husband does that may or may not be related to PA is he likes to antagonize people. The man is 50 yet he will walk stopping his feet behind someone to try and scare them, or hide and then jump around the corner to try and spook a person. He takes liter plastic bottles when empty and then scrunches them up so they make this very irritating noise. He was doing this stuff at home and I asked him to stop so he started doing it at work, one of his coworkers mentioned this at a dinner we all attended. The guy's wife looked shocked, asked husband if he minded the actions and the guys admitted he found them irritating. He said it very nicely and husband agreed at he would stop. But this is just it.* He gets great pleasure in someone displeasure and purposely does these things knowing their are unpleasant*.


The bolded is what the PA is looking for. Remember that the PA is always angry and unhappy. They have 2 options to gain happiness. They can either exhaust themselves faking pleasantries to gain validation through feedback such as "He's a great guy", or they can be themselves and gain negative attention by doing something that upsets the other person. In your husband's case, he accomplishes this through annoying others with immature, inappropriate behavior. Either way it makes the PA happy inside. Like a child, they don't care if the attention is positive or negative, as long as they get it. Apparently your husband has found negative attention to be his preferred method in public. And he managed to embarrass you in the process, so triple score for him.


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## gettingout

diwali123 said:


> Are you still married?


If that ? was meant for me yes but we are getting D. 

The thing that I thought was so fascinating about the Finch book and which other people has hinted at is that he talked about always wearing "masks" to fit in. He didn't know he was PA (he thought he was being perfectly rational) - it wasn't til his wife gave him a quiz about Aspbergers (which they had confirmed with further professional testings) that he/they realized what was going on. 

And the key is, he loved his wife SO MUCH he WANTED TO CHANGE.

I've been out with my husband socially and seen him act one way, and the minute we get home it's like the "mask" falls off....just like in the Finch book.


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## DaytoDay

> I've been out with my husband socially and seen him act one way, and the minute we get home it's like the "mask" falls off....just like in the Finch book.


gettingout, here's the thing, though. Don't we all do that to some degree? For example, we go to a wedding reception and we don't like a bunch of people there, yet we put on a "good face" for the sake of everyone there? We certainly do it with co-workers at times. I don't think it's unusual to "act" differently when we're around other people. Now, granted, putting on an English accent and talking about your friend, the Queen, when you're really from southern Alabama .... that would be more than weird. (I knew someone that did that.)

Where is the line between appropriate and not?


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## 3Xnocharm

SlowCreek.NoPaddle said:


> gettingout, here's the thing, though. Don't we all do that to some degree? For example, we go to a wedding reception and we don't like a bunch of people there, yet we put on a "good face" for the sake of everyone there? We certainly do it with co-workers at times. I don't think it's unusual to "act" differently when we're around other people. Now, granted, putting on an English accent and talking about your friend, the Queen, when you're really from southern Alabama .... that would be more than weird. (I knew someone that did that.)
> 
> Where is the line between appropriate and not?


I think everyone does that to a degree, its part of making yourself socially acceptable. BUT, the thing is, its wrong to be pleasant socially but then turn on your family when you are home. Why does family "deserve" crappy treatment? I think thats what they were getting at.


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## diwali123

Yes my ex could be sweet as pie to other people and the second we were alone he would be back to his angry, sullen self. 
Or I would ask what was wrong, he would say "I'm just tired." 
Then the phone would ring, and he would have an animated discussion with smiling and laughter. Hang up and act like a jerk to me. I would ask him, if you are so tired why can you be nice to a friend on the phone but not to me? 
Never had an answer for that.


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## VeggieMom

SaltInWound said:


> Does anyone's PA spouse have any addictions or other impulse problems that have greatly interfered in daily life/marriage?


Mine struggles with some OCD-- he cleans certain surfaces to excess and has to have some things just so, but other things he could live like a pig and never be bothered by it.


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## VeggieMom

janefw said:


> Oh, my h, he would pull the trash bag with the trash out of our bathroom trash bin, and then just leave it in the bathroom. Like - that's the job done right there .. so I left it and left it .. and then one day I got truly fed up and put it in his sink. He had a FIT. I mean, he just yelled and yelled, but I will say that 99% of the time he brings the trash bag downstairs now.
> 
> It's not an issue that he 'should' bring the trash bag down, but really, why take it out of the trash bin and then just leave it? In the past, I had brought it down and put it outside, but what the heck? It's like the stupid milk jug that he finishes and then leaves on the counter even though the recycling bin is 20 feet away. I take the lid off and then leave it where it is. It takes him about 2 days but then he starts complaining about the smell, and I point him in the direction of the milk jug. Then he usually says "why does nobody throw it away?" To which I respond "I don't know. Why didn't *you* throw it away?" and then walk away before he starts ranting.


Yes I agree and we have had similar battles! He has for years swept our floors (we have all tile in the house) and will sweep the pile of dirt into a corner out of the way of his walking space and leave it along with the broom propped against the wall. I asked him once if he was leaving that for someone else to clean up or if he was planning to finish it? He did this so many times and sometimes I would finish his job, esp when the kids were small and would get into the mess. One day I just snapped about it and I told him the next time he did that I would sweep it into the bedroom and put the pile on his side of the bed, on the floor. He had gone to bed when I found the next pile and I quietly swept it next to his side of the bed and he stepped in it the next morning. He didn't say anything about it at all, but he did mostly stop doing that particular habit after that. 

I hate playing games back. It makes me seem like a twisted revenge-minded person which I am not. But sometimes you have to draw your boundaries and stick to them. 

Another thing he does is put our towels or kitchen towels outside on the back porch to dry and not take them back in ever. Once a towel sat out there for a week. Last week he put one on the back porch on the ground and the dog used it as a bed. I took a photo and sent it to him and told him I did not appreciate him doing that but the dog didn't seem to mind. He is OCD with some things-- that towel is now permanently contaminated and was thrown away. He has not put towels out since because now the dog might lay on them.


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## bailingout

diwali123 said:


> Yes my ex could be sweet as pie to other people and the second we were alone he would be back to his angry, sullen self.
> Or I would ask what was wrong, he would say "I'm just tired."
> Then the phone would ring, and he would have an animated discussion with smiling and laughter. Hang up and act like a jerk to me. I would ask him, if you are so tired why can you be nice to a friend on the phone but not to me?
> Never had an answer for that.


:rofl: Mine does the same thing. I just laugh at him. The funniest thing is that I have seen other members of his family do it also. And he doesn't recognize it when I point it out. lol

He had surgery one time, you would have swore he was dying after the procedure. One minute he'd be laying on the couch moaning like he was in the worst pain ever, the next he'd be up doing a load of laundry or dishes, seemingly perfectly fine, then 1 minute later resume the moaning on the couch position. Literally 3 minutes later he'd be walking through the kitchen like a bent over 100 year old but as soon as a neighbor came in the garage he'd be upright and acting like he was 100% himself. This almost pushed me over the edge. I had to go out of the house.


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## VeggieMom

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaltInWound 
Can a passive aggressive person recognize when someone is acting passive aggressive toward them? 

Yes, because often when I do things back to set boundaries he will say, "You are just doing this to punish me, aren't you?" He has said this so many times, I am sure he thinks he is punishing me by doing what he does. 

I would never think of punishing a grown person. I am a talker and I would want to talk about it and find a solution. He is the one who punishes. I will set boundaries and have put his messes and responsibilities back into his face (like the dirt on his side of the bed) but I won't outright punish.

I have driven off without him a couple of times too! Once we had gotten into a fight right before going to the bank. we got there and there was a long wait of 30 minutes to talk to a bank employee, so I said I was going out and would be back in 30 minutes. I wanted to cool down and I actually felt bad for the fight so got some gas and iced coffees and came back. He was gone. I texted to find out where he was and he said he thought I was mad and punishing him and had left him there. I was so taken aback. I would never leave someone anywhere like that! But he had started to walk home, 2.5 miles away. It was a nice day and I asked him if he wanted to be picked up and he said no, so I let him walk home. 

He then asked me to go back the next day to the bank (we had to do some joint bank work). I told him no, that was my one day I could go to the bank and I had to work nights and would not be going during my sleep hours the next few days. When I did go back, I went by myself and opened my own checking/savings account which was very empowering, and shows him I mean business that if he doesn't change I now have money he can't touch.


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## VeggieMom

RE: addictions and such-- no never. H has always been a very light drinker once in a blue moon, no drugs ever, no affairs, no gambling or anything else. I know I complain a lot about his behaviors and am justified in expecting kinder behavior-- but I also count my blessings after having friends/family whose spouses were physically abusive and did a lot of things to hurt the family.


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## Wiserforit

diwali123 said:


> Yes my ex could be sweet as pie to other people and the second we were alone he would be back to his angry, sullen self.
> Or I would ask what was wrong, he would say "I'm just tired."
> Then the phone would ring, and he would have an animated discussion with smiling and laughter. Hang up and act like a jerk to me. I would ask him, if you are so tired why can you be nice to a friend on the phone but not to me?
> Never had an answer for that.


Another version of this is talking too softly to hear so that you have to say "What?! What?! What?!" every time they speak to you, drop what you are doing, and strain yourself to hear or move into position where you can hear better.

I had a master at that, and discovered he was using several tactics to defeat being heard. He would leave off parts of words so that even if you could hear it was indecipherable. 
So "I am going to" would be "mna". I took to writing down exactly what I was hearing phonetically and was amazed at how few of the letters in a sentence he was actually pronouncing.

The second thing was trailing off at the end so that he grabbed your attention when he started speaking, but then made it impossible to hear the end of the sentence even when you strained to hear. He would turn to look the other way, which is the opposite of what someone does if they want to be heard.

He would change the cadence to make things confusing. So a phone number, instead of being 123-4567 would be pronounced 12-345-67 so that your mind was baffled by the strange cadence instead of the number. 

Lastly, he would run all of the words together instead of separating them, and fail to use accents in their proper places. So "I am going to _work_" became "Iam_going_towork". But without all of the letters being pronounced, looking away, and trailing off. 

If he got a phone call, he was so loud and clear I had to leave the building in order to hear myself think, and even outside in the yard through the wall of the building I could understand what he was saying. But two feet from him looking straight at him, I could not understand.

One of the most maddening things was after saying "what?! What?!" he would LOWER his voice even softer, but make wild hand gestures and exaggerated facial expressions as if to say "look how hard I am trying". Then, after interrupting me and forcing me to say "What? What? What?" three times, he would say "never mind". If you tried to get him to say what was so important that he was interrupting your work he said that he "didn't want to bother you" so he wasn't going to say. 

Whenever he wanted people to hear him, like ordering food, he was the loudest voice in the room. So I asked him why he did this with people who were close to him, and with complete strangers he showed them the courtesy of speaking loud and clear. 

His response was "I do it with people I am comfortable with". That is a masterful non-answer that re-states the question. I had just told him WHO he did it with, and wanted to know WHY. Looking back, at the time he was driving, and started driving so wildly it was scaring the daylights out of me. That successfully diverted the discussion.

I also got the "I don't know" answer, which is always a lie. It was to be annoying, and getting delight out of the power trip over someone who doesn't realize what an a$$hole you are. 

Someone has said that they don't realize they are being passive aggressive, or covert aggressive. That isn't true. It's that they have no scruples. They do what "works" in their twisted disordered thinking, where putting other people in a one-down position is "winning". 

So sure, they know lying by omission is a lie. But it gets them what they want so they do it anyway. They will never admit it is a lie, unless they are pointing that out in someone else.


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## VeggieMom

bailingout said:


> I think we would all agree whether it's PA or controlling doesnt really matter. It's a tangled web either way and a miserable one to be caught up in.
> 
> i am glad that you are able to do thinks you like to do without much trouble. It is good for you and him to be able to do your own thing, but it is equally important to do things together so the kids see that also.
> 
> I too have decided to stay for our D, at least for now. My biggest concern would be the long term effect on her views of marriage as well as how couples interact with each other regularly. I decided that in order to make it as healthy as possible, I had to do most of the work. I too have had times where the last place I wanted to be on earth was anywhere near H, but I believe that is sending the wrong message to our D. Now I try to do keep a healthier balance so she MAY get a fractional view of how married people live together and do things as families. It's been very difficult.
> 
> I saw in an earlier post that I think you asked "has anyone been able to reconnect emotionally to their PA spouse" or something like that, and I can answer that as a yes. It is a very slight connection, a pin hole, but it is there. Truth be told, that surprised the crap out of me when I realized it as I was completely gone. I just felt it one day unexpectedly and completly out of the nowhere. That leads me to believe that what I am doing is helping. It may be a sloooowwww process and only a pin hole of a connection, but it's a start. Only time will tell how we end up.
> 
> OH, for what it's worth, we have sex maybe twice a month, other than that, there is barely any physical contact. Maybe a quick peck if either of us are feeling the pin hole at the moment, but some days, none. I'm ok w/ that for now.
> 
> Good luck in your journey.


RE: kids and seeing that behavior. I have been reading my books and talking to especially the 12 year old about the behaviors that have hurt our family. I have used words like manipulative and PA and she can recognize these things in herself and in others increasingly. At her age it is developmentally appropriate to have some of these behaviors but I am working on helping her cope with her own emotions and social development. The best was when H was being a bit PA with her and she said, "Daddy stop being manipulative! Listen to my feelings and then I will listen to yours!" :rofl: H stopped in his tracks and changed his behavior. I am the "enemy" and to blame for all his problems but his daughters are prized in his eyes and their opinion of him means a lot to his ego.

Emotionally connecting: yes we do sometimes connect. Not often but enough that I know there is a human being in there amongst the PA mess that surrounds him. When my dad passed away suddenly H cried and really grieved. It only lasted about 2 days before he hid himself again but I'm glad he was able to get those emotions out in the open. During that time we cried and hugged. He also truly cares about doing the right thing to everyone but me-- he takes great care with my very elderly grandparents, his children, and was the first to offer to help with yard work when the neighbor came down with cancer (although he never did our yard work!  ) So there are good qualities. It's just that I'm the bad guy in his eyes. I think I replaced his mom who was the former bad guy. I am struggling with how to break out of that in his eyes because right now he still needs someone to blame for his problems, and if he has no one to blame he would probably have to face his failures and shortcomings head on.

Since I started this thread I have seen progress in him, and in me. Detaching has been great. Last night I caught myself asking him to do something and then he started making excuses about why he could not do it and had not done it yet. I backed up and said, "I am sorry for asking you. I told you in our talk the other day that I no longer have expectations for you, and I will not depend on you anymore and I should have just done it myself." I said it in a voice that was sincere and not sarcastic or angry. I walked away. He followed me out and said, "That makes me really sad to hear you say that. You should depend on me sometimes. I want you to be able to depend on me. " I said, "It doesn't matter to me anymore whether you do it or not. I don't want to be accused of nagging and I am tired of being disappointed when you don't do it. I'll just do it myself. Don't worry about it." And then he did the task, and I thanked him for doing it. I was surprised but he did not get into the blame game or anything nasty. He just did it and he looks very sober and sad.


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## diwali123

bailingout said:


> :rofl: Mine does the same thing. I just laugh at him. The funniest thing is that I have seen other members of his family do it also. And he doesn't recognize it when I point it out. lol
> 
> He had surgery one time, you would have swore he was dying after the procedure. One minute he'd be laying on the couch moaning like he was in the worst pain ever, the next he'd be up doing a load of laundry or dishes, seemingly perfectly fine, then 1 minute later resume the moaning on the couch position. Literally 3 minutes later he'd be walking through the kitchen like a bent over 100 year old but as soon as a neighbor came in the garage he'd be upright and acting like he was 100% himself. This almost pushed me over the edge. I had to go out of the house.


I would have had to call him out on that. That's why I'm divorced.


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## diwali123

VeggieMom said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by SaltInWound
> Can a passive aggressive person recognize when someone is acting passive aggressive toward them?
> 
> Yes, because often when I do things back to set boundaries he will say, "You are just doing this to punish me, aren't you?" He has said this so many times, I am sure he thinks he is punishing me by doing what he does.
> 
> I would never think of punishing a grown person. I am a talker and I would want to talk about it and find a solution. He is the one who punishes. I will set boundaries and have put his messes and responsibilities back into his face (like the dirt on his side of the bed) but I won't outright punish.
> 
> I have driven off without him a couple of times too! Once we had gotten into a fight right before going to the bank. we got there and there was a long wait of 30 minutes to talk to a bank employee, so I said I was going out and would be back in 30 minutes. I wanted to cool down and I actually felt bad for the fight so got some gas and iced coffees and came back. He was gone. I texted to find out where he was and he said he thought I was mad and punishing him and had left him there. I was so taken aback. I would never leave someone anywhere like that! But he had started to walk home, 2.5 miles away. It was a nice day and I asked him if he wanted to be picked up and he said no, so I let him walk home.
> 
> He then asked me to go back the next day to the bank (we had to do some joint bank work). I told him no, that was my one day I could go to the bank and I had to work nights and would not be going during my sleep hours the next few days. When I did go back, I went by myself and opened my own checking/savings account which was very empowering, and shows him I mean business that if he doesn't change I now have money he can't touch.


Good for you. My ex always said I was trying to punish him when I was just taking care of myself or setting boundaries. He didn't get that not everyone wants to punish others no matter how many times I told him.


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## AVR1962

SaltInWound said:


> PAs are chameleons. They have no self identity. They want to be accepted to gain validation that they can't provide themselves, so they morph into their target. Think about how he speaks to people. Does he change his dialect? Does he start using an accent when speaking to someone who has an accent? Does he use different words/slang because someone else uses those same words? It is much like the person who is in a new relationship who suddenly starts eating a food they always claimed to hate......just because their new love interest eats that food.


This explains A LOT!!!!!!!


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## diwali123

AVR1962 said:


> This explains A LOT!!!!!!!


That's more borderline personality disorder IMHO. 

I think that the two over lap a lot. 
My ex was just himself and so thought that everything he did was right. He expected everyone else to change to be like him.


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## AVR1962

VeggieMom said:


> Mine struggles with some OCD-- he cleans certain surfaces to excess and has to have some things just so, but other things he could live like a pig and never be bothered by it.


My husband has to have his underwear, shirts and socks folded a certain way and if they are not he will refold them. He claims they fit better in his dresser, hum? He wears goggles and gloves to mow the grass or trim a small limb from a tree, he has all his shirts for work laundered professionally so they are all pressed yet he leaves skid marks in his underwear, leaves tons of water all over the bathroom and kitchen sinks when he uses them, will wear his weekend jeans several days to the point they could stand by themselves all rinkled around the crotch and gross, papers pile up around him and he's a good 40 lbs overweight.


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## DaytoDay

Regarding the low speaking, my H does the same thing. He'll mumble something like, "I'm going to stop by the store on the way home from work." And I'll question, "What?" because I didn't hear what he said. And he'll respond with just a partial sentence, like "the store." And I'll have to question him again, because "the store" doesn't mean anything to me. Of course by the third time I ask, he's now irritated.

I've dealt with this now by either ignoring what he said altogether and not even responding, or I flat-out tell him that if he isn't interested in making sure that I can hear what he has to say, then I really don't care what he has to say. That usually gets the entire sentence repeated in an audible level.

Another thing he does is like to insert these "dramatic pauses" whenever he's relaying some story or information to me. I believe it's very empowering for him to have someone literally sitting at his beck and call in utter silent anticipation. 

I've dealt with this by only waiting about 3-5 seconds for him to continue. When it becomes obvious that he's pulling his stunt, I simply start talking about a completely different subject. This does two things: it takes away his sense of control because I'm not sitting there waiting, plus it shows that I wasn't even invested enough in what he was saying to even notice that he wasn't finished.



> Since I started this thread I have seen progress in him, and in me. Detaching has been great. Last night I caught myself asking him to do something and then he started making excuses about why he could not do it and had not done it yet. I backed up and said, "I am sorry for asking you. I told you in our talk the other day that I no longer have expectations for you, and I will not depend on you anymore and I should have just done it myself." I said it in a voice that was sincere and not sarcastic or angry. I walked away. He followed me out and said, "That makes me really sad to hear you say that. You should depend on me sometimes. I want you to be able to depend on me. " I said, "It doesn't matter to me anymore whether you do it or not. I don't want to be accused of nagging and I am tired of being disappointed when you don't do it. I'll just do it myself. Don't worry about it." And then he did the task, and I thanked him for doing it. I was surprised but he did not get into the blame game or anything nasty. He just did it and he looks very sober and sad.


VM, I've had this exact exchange with my H! Multiple times. For years. I'm curious, where do you expect it to go? Yes, my H will do it too, but by then, I no longer care. If I have to go through that routine every time just to get him to do it, and then watch him walk away and pat himself on the back for what a great guy he is, then I truly would prefer to do whatever it is myself.

ETA: Also, if you continue to do it, it begins to mimic P/A behavior on YOUR part. A healthy relationship looks like you either ask him to do it and he does it, or you don't ask him because you really don't want him to do it.


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## diwali123

I feel so bad for all of you. I just don't know if these men ever change.


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## Wiserforit

diwali123 said:


> That's more borderline personality disorder IMHO.
> 
> I think that the two over lap a lot.
> My ex was just himself and so thought that everything he did was right. He expected everyone else to change to be like him.


This is clinically true. Borderline personalitiy disordered are extremely manipulative. 

There are a whole spectrum of related disorders that all utilize the same tactics. Once you learn about shaming, guilt-tripping, playing the victim, playing the servant role, etc. - you can recognize it in BPD, serial killers, emotional vampires, covert aggressives... all of them.

Someone mentioned the person who was reading all of the marriage help books but then playing dumb like they didn't know "what do do" in their marriage. 

That is so classic, and you can count on them being up to the opposite of the big show they are making. What better camoflage to operate under than "playing the servant role" - look how hard I am trying to do what you want. Buying the van without air conditioning, making sure to eliminate the only thing important to you... cancelling our float trip because these all-important friends are really counting on us to pull through for them. 

"Duper's delight" is the thrill they get out of tricking people. One of the extreme delights is what people are observing in how nice they are to others, who say "wow, your husband is such a great guy... must be wonderful to live with him" whereas they are monsters with you. They'll engage in long term plans to make you look awful to friends, whispering things in their ears and getting a storyline going that is impossible to defeat after years of their manipulative work. 

When this bum moved up with me the first thing he did was borrow $4,500 from me, claiming he was getting money soon from his divorce. He never paid that money back and had to declare bankruptcy from all his credit card debt. Never paid rent on time, ruined a computer he never reimbursed me for, just a big net financial loss. But he requested I keep secret the money he had borrowed and his bankruptcy. So I did. 

And he was running around telling everyone that he had come up here to help me out financially. I owned two airplanes and had $25K in cash buried in a coffee can, a retirement account, and was two years ahead on my mortgage, paying in advance when he showed up. So when I evicted him the storyline was how horrible I was to throw the guy out who had rescued me financially. I am on the bankruptcy paperwork showing the amount of debt he owed, but two of my "friends" will not even look at it because they won't speak to me.


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## DaytoDay

> I am on the bankruptcy paperwork showing the amount of debt he owed, but two of my "friends" will not even look at it because they won't speak to me.


Reading this makes me physically ill.  This is a fear that I have.

I also feel a huge amount of guilt because I believed all of his BS about his ex-W, how crazy she was and money hungry and how he tried so hard to make it work. In truth, I suspect she was just a lot like me.


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## diwali123

My best friend's husband was best friends with my ex. They were our best man and matron of honor. 
She knew everything that was going on and how horrible he was to me. She fully supported me and knew exactly why I wanted a divorce. 
Then her h left her and within months the two of them were screwing. He somehow convinced her that he was such a great guy. 
They have been together for four years.


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## DaytoDay

diwali123, that must have been gut-wrenching for you! But remember, these people are master-manipulators. What bigger accomplishment for him than THAT!

I suspect my H's exW looked at me similarly, not that I knew her situation, just that he could find such a catch and be happy again when he was such a jerk to her. If it's any consolation, it doesn't mean life is grand for her. She's just going through the same process you did when he first hooked you. If you care(d) for her at all, just feel sorry for her and be there when she falls.


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## diwali123

Had she been upfront and honest with me I could be there for her. Instead they hid it and when I confronted her she proceeded to deny, deny, deny. 
She then posted on her blog that I was being immature and how dare I imply she was doing anything. And then went off on me for being on WIC since he wouldn't give me enough child support to pay the bills. 
She also can't drive but took it upon herself a couple of times to drive my d around without a license. (she can't pass the test and doesn't have insurance.) 
She has thrown fits to my ex because my mom refuses to talk to her at my d's events, then ex goes off on them to me about what snobs they are. 
I think when her ex left her she lost her damn mind. I don't know who she is

And I know it's not all rosey. She just needed a man. And he used her to punish me for divorcing him.


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## DaytoDay

Then be glad you're done with both of them. Life can only get better after that. ((hug))


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## VeggieMom

AVR1962 said:


> My husband has to have his underwear, shirts and socks folded a certain way and if they are not he will refold them. He claims they fit better in his dresser, hum? He wears goggles and gloves to mow the grass or trim a small limb from a tree, he has all his shirts for work laundered professionally so they are all pressed yet he leaves skid marks in his underwear, leaves tons of water all over the bathroom and kitchen sinks when he uses them, will wear his weekend jeans several days to the point they could stand by themselves all rinkled around the crotch and gross, papers pile up around him and he's a good 40 lbs overweight.


I could have written all of the underlined things myself! :lol:


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## diwali123

SlowCreek.NoPaddle said:


> Then be glad you're done with both of them. Life can only get better after that. ((hug))


Life is much much better! 

However....I am not going to hide from my daughter what her "stepmother" did. She also knows all about the driving issue.


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## VeggieMom

> VM, I've had this exact exchange with my H! Multiple times. For years. I'm curious, where do you expect it to go? Yes, my H will do it too, but by then, I no longer care. If I have to go through that routine every time just to get him to do it, and then watch him walk away and pat himself on the back for what a great guy he is, then I truly would prefer to do whatever it is myself.
> 
> ETA: Also, if you continue to do it, it begins to mimic P/A behavior on YOUR part. A healthy relationship looks like you either ask him to do it and he does it, or you don't ask him because you really don't want him to do it.


I am not sure where I expect it to go . . I had not intended to ask him to do the thing in the first place and then felt I was being drawn into the conversation. I had to stop it somehow. 

You have a good point-- I don't want to manipulate him, but I do want to change my behavior so that he will maybe change his in how he treats me. And it's not a healthy relationship so I can't play by healthy relationship rules. 

I used to think he didn't care much about having me in his life, I was not very important to him one way or another. The way he ignored me, forgot things that were important to me, and even punished me rather than talking about his feelings, made me feel that way. Since I first posted we have had a big serious talk and he knows I'm dead serious about not wanting to live in this situation forever, and having the resources and the support to change my living situation if it comes to that and I don't see a lot of improvement. 

Secondly, I have realized that he is actually very co-dependent on me. Much more than I ever thought. He needs me to play that role so he can play the counter-role. Now that I'm not playing that role anymore of asking him to do things, he cannot play his manipulative stubborn role of refusing or procrastinating. He doesn't have any other game plan or rules and I think he does not know what to do with himself now. It's going to probably force him to think about how he can fit into my life if he wants to stay in it.

I know I should be able to depend on my spouse to help with things, but I can't. It stinks. I am not going to lower myself to the role of trying to get him to do them through guilt or manipulation. I will state some fact like, "the toilet is leaking." If he says he will fix it, then I will wait a length of time and see if it gets done. If not I will not say another word about it and hire a plumber. No power struggle. No games. 

He does have a conscience. He has truly been sorry a few times and sincerely apologized when he does something so bad and inconsiderate that there's no denying it's just plain bad. Like our spoiled vacation mentioned in my first post of this thread. There is no way to get out of the fact that he was extremely self-centered and rude. 

Other times he gets so caught up in the power struggle of the situation that he can't see beyond his own perspective to see my feelings. That's when he gets lost in trying to change the facts or flip the blame, etc. But sometimes it's so bad, like our vacation, that there's no blame to flip and then he says sorry.

He is also very sorry about insisting on buying a fridge with no ice machine-- he sees how controlling that was and he should have just let me have my wishes in that since it was important to me. Or dragging me and the baby to events that were important to him and ignoring us the whole time, and then delaying the return home by an hour or two beyond the agreed upon time. I just stopped going. It took a couple of years but he did feel very sorry for putting me through that and apologized with no strings attached.

There are many other examples where he has seen his wrong and apologized. So he's not entirely bad-- but he's just very immature and I don't think he has the skills to be considerate of the feelings of others most of the time. Especially me since I am the one who has had to ask the most of him and he has had the chance to push back as part of the sick power game he grew up with.


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## Wiserforit

SlowCreek.NoPaddle said:


> I also feel a huge amount of guilt because I believed all of his BS about his ex-W, how crazy she was and money hungry and how he tried so hard to make it work. In truth, I suspect she was just a lot like me.


Oh God, yes. I refused to speak to the ex-spouse because of all the horrible things I heard. After evicting this bum I had occasion to call both the ex-spouse and a brother. He abandoned a vehicle with a bad motor on my property and made sure to take the license and registration with him so that I wouldn't be able to sell it or even give it away for parts. Turned out he didn't even own it. His father did, and since he hadn't paid his father the piddling amount agreed upon, he never transferred title. 

They gave me the straight story on what an a$$hole he had been, how many jobs he had been fired from, unpaid bills, bad checks - so after reading I learned how they keep people from talking to each other and comparing notes. They learn what to say to each person to manipulate them and also make you feel like you are stabbing them in the back by talking to someone else.


----------



## deejov

Reading this thread is like reading my life, for the past few years.

I have to agree that I am not certain PA behavior is ever undone, as I do believe they know what they are doing. It's how they cope with low self esteem. I know my H spends a lot of energy thinking, planning, devising everything he does. I have never seen him actually relax, and be vulnerable. Not that I can recall, anyways. I just didn't see that at first. 


I'm not really concerned with whether or not my H ever learns skills other than PA to cope with life. I'm learning how to dodge it, and I don't put up with it. 

It affects me less.
Yes, I plan to leave in October. I have ZERO intentions of living on the edge and living in such a difficult relationship for the rest of my life. Yes, I could live like this for a very long time. Thats just the lazy tired me talking. The thought of starting over and being single. But I already feel single, I don't have a partner. 
I'm just tired of pretending he is a husband. He's not. 

Yes, in some small way... when I leave I will get some satisfaction at payback. I'm working on that.


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## DaytoDay

> I have to agree that I am not certain PA behavior is ever undone, as I do believe they know what they are doing.


This is part of what I have so much difficulty with. If I truly believed H was doing it on purpose, I could easily despise him for it. I've read that some people aren't even aware of it, or at least not aware of there being anything wrong with it. It's simply how they've learned from a very young age to get what they want. And who doesn't want to get what they want all the time?

Also, "knowing" they do it makes it much easier to think they could change it if they want to. Sort of like an alcoholic finally recognizing that they're an alcoholic. If they don't ever know, they can't/won't ever change it.


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## deejov

Paddle,
I agree with what you are saying, but I have changed my outlook on that. I'm trying hard not to judge him for it.

For all I know.... my H is happy with the way his life is. If he's happy, then I'm not going to be bitter if he does it on purpose. 
That's on me. I should not have married him thinking I could fix him, and I now just accept the way he is. Just the truth. Doesn't make me a better person. 

Just makes me more aware of who I am. 

And I will give him a bunch of credit. PA people never ever forget to put themselves first. Their happiness is always number one. There's something to be learned from that, if it's balanced.


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## VeggieMom

SlowCreek.NoPaddle said:


> This is part of what I have so much difficulty with. If I truly believed H was doing it on purpose, I could easily despise him for it. I've read that some people aren't even aware of it, or at least not aware of there being anything wrong with it. It's simply how they've learned from a very young age to get what they want. And who doesn't want to get what they want all the time?
> 
> Also, "knowing" they do it makes it much easier to think they could change it if they want to. Sort of like an alcoholic finally recognizing that they're an alcoholic. If they don't ever know, they can't/won't ever change it.


I agree with this. In the case of my H, I think that sometimes he does it out of anger or to punish me or control me when he thinks his life is out of control. But sometimes I just don't think he truly gets it. He's clueless how to emotionally feel things, deal with things, have empathy. It's like expecting a toddler to ride a two-wheel bike when they can hardly walk still. Won't happen. Not always the fault of the toddler.

We've been together for 15+years. We were both young. I had the advantage of having a lot of hardship in my childhood that made me strong and capable and mature for my age. I worked part time jobs and had life experience and other relationships. He came to me having lived at home his whole life, and although his family was dysfunctional he did have all his basic needs met and lived a life of material comfort and security. Never dated before, never had a job, still very much inside an adolescent. He has managed (though not gracefully) to keep a decent job, buy a house, support a stay at home mom, and be a good father. So I give him credit for growing up. He just somehow has a big chunk missing from his development and it still affects him.

This week since I've had a my change of attitude and strategy I have seen some changes in him. Now I'm waiting to see if they last or if he is just doing them to get through the crisis. I did see a look in his eyes when I had the serious talk that I had not seen before. Very serious and sober and sad.


----------



## Wiserforit

deejov said:


> It's how they cope with low self esteem.


This view is being discarded, and rightfully so, as a leftover from archaic Freudian thought. 

The more recent literature speaks to arrested emotional development: the lack of empathy for others and narcissistic view, like a child who is the center of his own universe. 

They do it because it gets them what they want. So it is clearly "on purpose" in that respect. They aren't morons. Peope with a conscience just don't understand that sociopaths, narcissists, and all manner of other personality disorders simply have no empathy.

They learn in childhood, seeing or experiencing abusive behavior, so they are schooled to lack empathy. 

It isn't correct then to say that they aren't "aware" that they are hurting someone else. It's just that hurting others has zero negative impact on their psyche and indeed can be the source of great pleasure to them.

Not necessarily in a strictly sadistic sense, but in the sense of exerting power over others. In this world view, having empathy for others and taking them into consideration is stupid. So they look down upon considerate people as stupid. 

Stupid people deserve what they get. Not being able to see through their passive aggressive tactics of playing dumb, playing the victim, etc. is your own stupid fault.


----------



## DaytoDay

I'm getting better at juggling the everyday. Even tonight, I immediately recognized one of his PA moves and blocked it. The problem is that it leaves me feeling completely detached from him. It's like a game of chess, and by default that puts us on opposing sides. It's difficult to "like" him when I'm constantly on the lookout for his next manipulative move. Figuratively, he's like a giant black hole that I need to stay far away from or else I'll get sucked in and never be heard from again. I climbed out of that hole once; I don't know that I could do it again.

So even if I could learn all the right counter-moves and stick it out, there's no feeling of closeness. Sex is out; our bedroom mirrors the rest of our life -- it's all about him.

So how do you get your emotional needs met in this kind of relationship?

(Sorry, VM, I don't mean to hijack your thread! I hope these questions are mirroring yours.)


----------



## pink_lady

diwali123 said:


> When I was with my ex I found this site. It is excellent.
> Passive-Aggressive Discussion Site
> 
> ...I threw an ironing board at the wall and broke a window. Then I was accused of being angry.
> They push you and push you until you just can't take it anymore. I think they can't express their own anger so they constantly push to make you angry until you express the anger for them.
> 
> His patten of sabotaging your dates is so typical. When our d was six months old she spent the night with my mom for the first time. I got dressed up, got some new make up, did my hair. He didn't even look at me.
> 
> At dinner I tried to have a conversation and he would barely talk to me. He found a way to pick a fight and we ended up sleeping in separate rooms instead of having time for connecting and intimacy.


Gawd, I could have written this. Spot on.

I threw something at a wall while yelling at my STBXH once. I had never done anything like that in my life before!

One of the last straws was my attempt to go out last New Year's Eve with him. He had been going out to bars until all hours with friends so I figured he wouldn't mind going out and socializing with me for once. I got all dolled up and I looked great. He said nothing, he had stopped complimenting me long before. 

I wanted to go to my favorite place that has a sexy ambiance (it's a place he likes too, it's not super fancy or expensive). He pretended to forget where we were going though we had agreed on it. When we got there, he made a big point of sitting in a corner table away from everything- as if he didn't want to be seen with me- complained about the lighting, couldn't find anything on the menu he wanted to order, and then just sat like a stone staring at the wall and refusing to interact with me. 

So we left and went to a god awful college bar/restaurant with bright fluorescent lighting and some idiot game playing loudly on the TV. I just sat there trying not to cry. I think on the drive home was when I realized the relationship I thought I had didn't really even exist.

I don't wish this kind of soul-destroying covert abuse on anyone.


----------



## pink_lady

Wiserforit said:


> This view is being discarded, and rightfully so, as a leftover from archaic Freudian thought.
> 
> The more recent literature speaks to arrested emotional development: the lack of empathy for others and narcissistic view, like a child who is the center of his own universe.
> 
> They do it because it gets them what they want. So it is clearly "on purpose" in that respect. They aren't morons. Peope with a conscience just don't understand that sociopaths, narcissists, and all manner of other personality disorders simply have no empathy.
> 
> They learn in childhood, seeing or experiencing abusive behavior, so they are schooled to lack empathy.
> 
> It isn't correct then to say that they aren't "aware" that they are hurting someone else. It's just that hurting others has zero negative impact on their psyche and indeed can be the source of great pleasure to them.
> 
> Not necessarily in a strictly sadistic sense, but in the sense of exerting power over others. In this world view, having empathy for others and taking them into consideration is stupid. So they look down upon considerate people as stupid.
> 
> Stupid people deserve what they get. Not being able to see through their passive aggressive tactics of playing dumb, playing the victim, etc. is your own stupid fault.


Exactly. It's just so hard to wrap our minds around the fact that these people KNOW what they are doing- they just DON'T CARE, or even ENJOY that it hurts us, the person they are supposed to love. But you have to accept it, and stop making excuses for them.


----------



## gettingout

SlowCreek.NoPaddle said:


> gettingout, here's the thing, though. Don't we all do that to some degree? For example, we go to a wedding reception and we don't like a bunch of people there, yet we put on a "good face" for the sake of everyone there? We certainly do it with co-workers at times. I don't think it's unusual to "act" differently when we're around other people. Now, granted, putting on an English accent and talking about your friend, the Queen, when you're really from southern Alabama .... that would be more than weird. (I knew someone that did that.)
> 
> Where is the line between appropriate and not?


To some degree yes we all do it, true. I think someone else said it best - are they personable out of the house but verbally abusive, noncooperative, argumentative, cold and distant at home? Just plain mean?


----------



## gettingout

VeggieMom said:


> He does have a conscience. He has truly been sorry a few times and sincerely apologized when he does something so bad and inconsiderate that there's no denying it's just plain bad.
> 
> Other times he gets so caught up in the power struggle of the situation that he can't see beyond his own perspective to see my feelings. That's when he gets lost in trying to change the facts or flip the blame, etc. But sometimes it's so bad, like our vacation, that there's no blame to flip and then he says sorry.
> 
> He is also very sorry about insisting on buying a fridge with no ice machine-- he sees how controlling that was and he should have just let me have my wishes in that since it was important to me. Or dragging me and the baby to events that were important to him and ignoring us the whole time, and then delaying the return home by an hour or two beyond the agreed upon time. I just stopped going. It took a couple of years but he did feel very sorry for putting me through that and apologized with no strings attached.
> 
> There are many other examples where he has seen his wrong and apologized. So he's not entirely bad-- but he's just very immature and I don't think he has the skills to be considerate of the feelings of others most of the time. Especially me since I am the one who has had to ask the most of him and he has had the chance to push back as part of the sick power game he grew up with.


Just wanted to say that that is a good sign that maybe there is something to work with here, my STBXH never ever ever apologizes, is never wrong, everything is always someone else's fault. 

The maybe 3 times in 13 years I got an apology it was a "yes, but" apology. So not a real one. 

Next time around, if there is a next time, I will also pay attention to how a many treats other people - waiters, car parkers, bell boys at hotels. If he treats them rudely or aggressively - I'm done. Big warning sign for me now. Also, do not get involved with someone who hates his mom - ignored my gut on that one!!!


----------



## VeggieMom

SlowCreek.NoPaddle said:


> I'm getting better at juggling the everyday. Even tonight, I immediately recognized one of his PA moves and blocked it. The problem is that it leaves me feeling completely detached from him. It's like a game of chess, and by default that puts us on opposing sides. It's difficult to "like" him when I'm constantly on the lookout for his next manipulative move. Figuratively, he's like a giant black hole that I need to stay far away from or else I'll get sucked in and never be heard from again. I climbed out of that hole once; I don't know that I could do it again.
> 
> So even if I could learn all the right counter-moves and stick it out, there's no feeling of closeness. Sex is out; our bedroom mirrors the rest of our life -- it's all about him.
> 
> So how do you get your emotional needs met in this kind of relationship?
> 
> (Sorry, VM, I don't mean to hijack your thread! I hope these questions are mirroring yours.)


No feel free to share-- I love hearing other people's stories because it makes me feel less crazy.

I want to hear how other people answer the question. For me, my needs come from outside the marriage for now: my kids, my work, and I have this week called up some old friends and hope to rekindle those friendships. Already have plans to see a movie with one lady I used to do fun stuff with before work got too busy.


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## AVR1962

diwali123 said:


> That's more borderline personality disorder IMHO.
> 
> I think that the two over lap a lot.
> My ex was just himself and so thought that everything he did was right. He expected everyone else to change to be like him.


I have often felt like I was walking on eggshells and I do see what you are saying, never diagnosed but I think my first husband had BPD and that is insane trying to deal with!


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## AVR1962

VeggieMom said:


> I could have written all of the underlined things myself! :lol:


Amazing! We went out of town recently. In the hotel husband immediately hangs up all his shirts. He takes 7 hangers and leaves me with 4. I had more hang-up clothes by far so I was doubling putting things on top of things. Had a said a word about sharing the hanger it would have made things bad so I made the comment the hotel needed more hangers. He never offered anything. He then would go to the gym and come back and lay all his sweaty clothes on the backs of the chairs which was the only place to sit besides the bed, it was disgusting!!! I had my shoes in the bottom of the closet and he dumped his dirty clothes on my shoes. All of it just makes me not be close to the man. His habits are revolting!


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## AVR1962

gettingout said:


> Next time around, if there is a next time, I will also pay attention to how a many treats other people - waiters, car parkers, bell boys at hotels. If he treats them rudely or aggressively - I'm done. Big warning sign for me now. Also, do not get involved with someone who hates his mom - ignored my gut on that one!!!


My husband didn't like his mom either. Said she was over bearing and too demanding which I agree, she was. His mother loved him to death and cherished everything he did. I noticed that husband tended not take orders/direction (he was military) from women well and would gripe. He claims he forgave her. I wonder though if he just accepted his mom finally. I never saw him be real enduring towards her.

His dad on the other hand is a man who is very rude, thinks he's funny, ignored his wife and husband admires his father. He gets all teary-eyed when he thinks of not seeing his dad again. They get along like two drinking buddies when they get together. I cannot stand to be around the man. I hardly knew him and he tells me this story about him and his wife as newlyweds and she is sitting on the end of the bed crying "because it's too big." He tells this story with the whole family around, kids and all. Husband's sister laughs and says, "dad loves to tell that story." How disrespectful and disgusting!


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## AVR1962

How many of you came from alcoholic homes? I was reading in my book last night (Women who Love Too Much) that many of us come from home where alcohol was abused. I am one of those, so it made me a little curious.


----------



## AVR1962

VeggieMom said:


> I used to think he didn't care much about having me in his life, I was not very important to him one way or another. The way he ignored me, forgot things that were important to me, and even punished me rather than talking about his feelings, made me feel that way.
> 
> Secondly, I have realized that he is actually very co-dependent on me. Much more than I ever thought. He needs me to play that role so he can play the counter-role. Now that I'm not playing that role anymore of asking him to do things, he cannot play his manipulative stubborn role of refusing or procrastinating.
> 
> He does have a conscience. He has truly been sorry a few times and sincerely apologized when he does something so bad and inconsiderate that there's no denying it's just plain bad.


VeggieMom, one thing I have learned in all of this is to trust myself. When husband and I were dating the whole dating scenario was so one-sided. I asked many times if he felt for me like I did for him and he would tell me he did. It was only a few months ago we sat in a couple's counseling session and he told the counselor that I was ready to commit and he was not. So I sensed it all along but he denied it and I allowed myself to not trust myself and her we are not married 21 years.

It's good that your husband can admit wrong, mine does too but it takes normally someone else besides me to point this out to him. My husband was a porn addict. I tried to catch him repeatedly and he must have had ears like a mouse because he could switch screens before I would ever see. This was something I WAS VERY SPECIFIC about before we married. I saw the Playboy mags in his house. I told him that I felt that with kids in the home there was no room for porn and asked him to stop his prescript which he did so I thought that was the end of it and for two years it was. When we got Internet that's when it all flared back up. 8 years together at this point my teen daughter walks into the room where the computer is at and sees my husband viewing a strip show. Our youngest who was not even 3 yet was in the room, supposed to be taking a nap but was not asleep. I was furious! How could husband find his behavior acceptable in any way? Oh, I got apologizes but at this point I didn't even begin to wonder how sincere they were.

I told husband that I felt he was an addict. He never came to me for sex, it was me going to him trying to create a relationship with him but his sex life was porn. He said it was normal male behavior, all his friends looked at porn too. I told him I was leaving or we need to seek counseling for his issues with porn, he agreed to counseling. I also then, bold as I was at the time, went to my husband's co-workers' wives, I knew them all well enough to ask the question, and I asked them if their husbands viewed porn, funny how differently the response was from them than it was from my husband!!

Counselor told him he was an addict. Felt that perhaps he had been sexually abused as a child and wanted to explore that. He said it was not typical behavior for a man not to approach his wife for sex unless something happened to the man in his childhood. He also concluded thru several sessions of meeting and talking that husband had missed a very important dating phase as teen. Husband was very self conscience over some scars and would not ask girls even to be his girlfriend. He would get a crush and think about her but then he would see her later with some guy and would be crushed even though he had never even spoke to her. His fantasying and porn addiction was born then.

The counselor was pretty tough on husband and told him to look what he had done to me and to our marriage. He was asked to admit and apologize to our kids, they all knew and 2 of them had caught him. He did that and I thought he would then try to relate to me but he never has. He did stop the porn, he has been porn free for many years but it did not stop the infatuations.

I knew how he was with the porn and you could just see his demeanor change as soon as he entered a room where there was women. He would have everyone of them scoped in a matter of minutes of entering a room and then he would fixate on one of them. I figured he was fantasizing. Then he have a bag of candy he'd be taking to work and I'd ask what he was going to do with that....he was giving it to the woman across the hall to replenish all he'd eaten....yep, infatuation. I saw it. He would tell me how he and this woman would joke and talk. Really? He was not joking and talking to me. I asked him if his thoughts about this girl were sexually and he denied it but I kept my eye open and I could see he was not being truthful and knew him too well. There actually were three women that I knew about that he became emotionally involved with, sexually in his head. Of course they had no clue but he fed his fantasizes by their laughing at his jokes which is very important to him. 

Finally, 3 1/2 years ago, after dealing with a good friend of mine who had an emotionally affair and left her husband I realized how deep and intense these emotional affairs are and approached husband about them once again and this time he admitted. All those year of me seeking him, trying to make a relationship with him while he sought porn and other women, for me that was the end. We have had counseling sense, male counselor basically told husband he screwed up his first marriage with his porn and interests in other women but did not try to work things out with her and he has done the same in our marriage. He made excuses for himself and said he thought this was normal male behavior. Counselor told him that many men do this but it destroys relationships. He has tried since to buy me a card or flowers and he does tell me he loves me but I have my feet on the other side of the door jam and have no willingness to go back to the BS.

I just feel a little trapped right now so I am trying to put one foot in front of the other to get to where I need to be.


----------



## AVR1962

In the 24 years I have been with husband the one thing that is lacking the most is his ability, when wrong or troubled by something, is to be able for him to talk about it. This is my second marriage and my third serious relationship and while the others may not have been any healthier the one thing that does differ in the men is the ability to speak and say what's on their mind or in their heart. I have always had to probe and ask him how he feels and then I find out year later that he was not truthful. If my husband was truly sincere about how hurt I have been from his actions and he was sincere about wanting to be a different man I would think he would express that and since that does not/is not happening I don't see our future being any different than the past. You have to have open honest communication to move fwd in any relationship.

Sitting in our couple's counseling session a few months ago the counselor asked husband what was the difference in this marriage compared to his first, he divorced his first wife after 4 years. He told counselor that I talk more and make sure that there is communication. He told counselor that his first wife didn't voice her complaints to him but took them to his sisters instead. I then told them both that this is part of the problem......husband is expecting other people in his life to be the communicators and does not see himself even as responsible in that role, counselor agreed. I think this key!


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## gettingout

AVR1962 said:


> How many of you came from alcoholic homes? I was reading in my book last night (Women who Love Too Much) that many of us come from home where alcohol was abused. I am one of those, so it made me a little curious.


Yes, me.

STBX comes from a home filled with unresolved childhood trauma, I suspect he may have been abused (beyond the psychological ways I know about), drinks too much, and has a porn habit as well.


----------



## northernlights

My H was raised by an emotionally absent, alcoholic father and an overbearing, PA mother. It's no wonder he's the way he is. I had a more normal upbringing, but definitely was raised in the drama triangle. I'm a rescuer.

My H is another that never has treated me well, which makes me feel just so stupid for even marrying him in the first place. I still remembering getting my master's degree 10 years ago, and waiting for some kind of acknowledgement from H. A card maybe? Maybe even a little gift? Dinner? Just the words "Congratulations"??

Nothing. Finally we were driving back across the country and somewhere in the middle, I realize he wasn't just waiting for a certain spot to stop and give me my card, and I started crying. He had NO IDEA what was going on. I'd worked my butt off through that program--I was the first graduate to get through the program while holding down a job. I was so proud of myself.

There we so many other warning signs. When we talked about getting married, I told him that even though we talked about it, I still wanted an old-fashioned, down-on-one-knee proposal, just because it was something I'd always dreamed about. Stupid, but just something that meant something to me.

He didn't do it. Gah, why did I marry him anyway?? WHY?? I was still at this point SO SURE that if I just found another way to make him understand me, he would do those things that mattered. Yeah, turned out him understanding wasn't the problem.


----------



## bailingout

SlowCreek.NoPaddle said:


> This is part of what I have so much difficulty with. If I truly believed H was doing it on purpose, I could easily despise him for it. I've read that some people aren't even aware of it, or at least not aware of there being anything wrong with it. It's simply how they've learned from a very young age to get what they want. And who doesn't want to get what they want all the time?
> .


I agree as it is often said that we adopt similar if not the same behaviors, views, opinions as those who were our primary caretakers early in life. I notice many similarities in H's views on things are identical to his parents. I don't think many people don't realize the effects our parents have on us throughtout our adult life. 

One question I always ask myself now is.....Is this truly MY opinion/belief/view or is it one I learned from somewhere else (likely my parents). I dont think many people realize how much we actually just repeat from what we learned. 

A MC told me years ago something like.. xxxxX number of thoughts go through our brain on a daily basis but we only notice/remember aka consciously acknowledge appx 15% of them. He continued to say that if I really wanted to work on me, I had to increase that percentage, I had to become more consciously aware, he did warn me that it wasn't easy and could be very painful to deal with what I may discover, but in the long run, doing so could greatly improve my life. 





AVR1962 said:


> How many of you came from alcoholic homes? I was reading in my book last night (Women who Love Too Much) that many of us come from home where alcohol was abused. I am one of those, so it made me a little curious.


Both of mine were alcoholics, he was far worse tho, it caused many problems for him (got beat up, DWI, lost jobs etc), she was a weekend drinker but wasn't hurt by it the way he was. Mom provided the material things food/clothing/shelter (the separated when I was 6mos old) but dad provided the untouchable things. He told me he loved me, showed up for every activity I did (usually drunk lol), was an engaged father when we were together. When she was home, she didn't engage, was too busy reading a book. I spent my childhood mostly at friends house or in my room. I came out to come/go and to eat. The only vacays we took where for her, never what a kid would want. My dad, took us to Disney even tho I have no idea how he paid for it. Needless to say, I am grateful for those families I spent time with from 5-18, I think it's what gave me a peek at a different life.


----------



## bailingout

northernlights said:


> My H was raised by an emotionally absent, alcoholic father and an overbearing, PA mother. It's no wonder he's the way he is.


My H's upbringing was similar. But he doesn't think it was dysfunctional, it is his "normal". It won't change until he's ready to deal with the whole truth. 

I came from an openly dysfunctional home and I admit it.

One time, I told H I thought his family/childhood was dysfunctional/unhealthy but in a different way than mine, he disagreed and then threw at me how could I possibly know what a healthy/non dysfunctional environment would look like consider how I was raised.


I chuckled and responded with---"You know, you're right, I have no idea what a healthy non-dysfunctional home looks like, but I sure in hell can spot an unhealthy dysfunctional one from a mile away. I'm an expert in those." :smthumbup:

He walked away. :rofl:


----------



## DaytoDay

bailingout! :rofl:

There was virtually no alcohol in my house. Dysfunctional in that I believe my father is PA to my mother. My mother was un-affectionate, overly strict. But I feel for her because I think she probably had to, since my dad wouldn't wear the pants.

My H would tell you his upbringing was perfect! Great father, great mother, a number of siblings. But that's what he says. I know his father was abandoned by his own father and never had a relationship with him, and my FIL also traveled a lot for work so he often wasn't home. I know that his mother was on tranquilizers. And I know he had a sister die of a birth defect when he was 6 or 7. So he's simply buried any bad memories.

I'm really surprised that so many of you have problems with your H's not apologizing. Mine will do it ENDLESSLY. He apologizes to everyone for everything, because then it adds to his image of being humble and imperfect. The problem is that the behavior that he's apologizing for never changes, so the apology is strictly lip-service.


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## DaytoDay

I was reading yesterday in a book on PA behavior and it talked about "overt" aggressiveness and "covert" aggressiveness. Overt is when it's out in the open; covert is when it's hidden. It's my understanding then that PA behavior is covert, often done with an aire of "innocence." Many of you sound like you have overtly aggressive spouses. That could be related to the behaviors learned from the alcoholic interactions, where the behaviors are often loud, violent, and typically socially unacceptable. The drunk clearly looks "wrong" to others. 

It doesn't facilitate/demonstrate the mental workings to plot things out while still maintaining a "good guy" image. I'm not sure what that aggressiveness would fall under, but it certainly doesn't sound "passive."


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## diwali123

I just want to say again it is possible to get out and to live a great life. I read these stories and it's like remembering a nightmare but it was my life. 
Anyone needs help on getting out and dealing with them while divorcing I am here for you. 

My first mothers day my d was four months old. My parents came to spend the night. My mom gave me a flower and a card. They left around noon. 
And I waited...
Around two I said "do you have any plans at all?"
He acted clueless. I said "so you aren't going to do anything for mother's day?"
He said "well your mom was here."
What???
I said "are you serious? No card, nothing???"
He said "but your mom was here."
I got d and her stroller and told him we would celebrate by ourselves. Took her to the park and cried. 
Got back and he made up this story about how we had agreed to celebrate it the next weekend since my mom was there. 
I was pissed. Then he went out that week and got me a charm with d's birthstone in it. Which he bought from my friend who is now his gf. He convinced her that we had agreed on this. I told her no way and that he was lying. 
I can't remember what I did for fathers day but it wasn't much.


----------



## minimalME

AVR1962 said:


> How many of you came from alcoholic homes? I was reading in my book last night (Women who Love Too Much) that many of us come from home where alcohol was abused. I am one of those, so it made me a little curious.


My dad is a recovering alcoholic, both of my parents are narcissists, and both sides of my family have a very strong history of all sorts of addictions and abuse. 

It's a very slow process - sorting myself out. It's three steps forward, two steps back. But I know my weak areas, and my decision making has drastically improved.


----------



## AVR1962

diwali123 said:


> I just want to say again it is possible to get out and to live a great life. I read these stories and it's like remembering a nightmare but it was my life.
> Anyone needs help on getting out and dealing with them while divorcing I am here for you.
> 
> My first mothers day my d was four months old. My parents came to spend the night. My mom gave me a flower and a card. They left around noon.
> And I waited...
> Around two I said "do you have any plans at all?"
> He acted clueless. I said "so you aren't going to do anything for mother's day?"
> He said "well your mom was here."
> What???
> I said "are you serious? No card, nothing???"
> He said "but your mom was here."
> I got d and her stroller and told him we would celebrate by ourselves. Took her to the park and cried.
> Got back and he made up this story about how we had agreed to celebrate it the next weekend since my mom was there.
> I was pissed. Then he went out that week and got me a charm with d's birthstone in it. Which he bought from my friend who is now his gf. He convinced her that we had agreed on this. I told her no way and that he was lying.
> I can't remember what I did for fathers day but it wasn't much.


Well, all the reading and therapy plus reading the posts and replies here I told my husband this morning that I thought we needed to move on separately in a year. We are Americans but do not live in the US. Currently we live overseas with my husband's job position. In one more year our last child will graduate high school and we are scheduled to return to the US. I was hoping that his reaction would be different. I explained in detail what lead me to my thoughts, all the hurt and selfish behavior from the porn and the infatuations and being so self absorbed in his interests and not being there for me, the kids and not helping and supporting. I thought (more so hoped) that he would tell me he loved me and always had, apologize for his behavior. Nope, he said, "If you think that's what we need to do," just as calm as could be. I became furious which of course is what the PA enjoys so he got what he wanted. I told him what I hoped his reaction would be instead and told him that his reply tells me that he has never loved me or even cared. He left the house.


----------



## diwali123

I think that you were being manipulative somewhat. It seems like you didn't really just want to relay the information, you wanted him to break down and cry and beg. 
And I get that. Were you really serious about separating or trying to see what he would do? 
But sometimes when people hear that the other partner is done, they are in shock and don't know what to say at all. 
As a counselor used to tell me "keep
Your side of the street clean." make sure you aren't pulled into being manipulative. It's so hard with people like that.


----------



## DaytoDay

It really is hard not to stoop to their way of doing things!!! So don't beat yourself up.

Also, recognize that the anger and hurt you're feeling is unwarranted. He simply doesn't have it in him and it's no reflection on you. ((hug))


----------



## VeggieMom

AVR I have been disappointed by the same type of non-emotional reaction in the past. Usually I was crying and I would tell him I felt like the marriage was not there anymore and maybe we needed to separate. What I wanted to hear in my heart was "Oh honey, I love you, I need you . " but what I heard of course was "Think of how it would destroy the children, our finances, etc" 

I realized later I had put him in a real spot and he was acting in his usual defensive way. 

After reading books on PA and trying to change my conversation styl and understand how he reacts, I did tell him all his good qualities, brought up some good memories from way far back in the relationship, and said I really wanted us to be close like that again. But then I brought up the pattern of behavior I saw in him, how it really hurt me, and how I reacted with strong anger outbursts. He somehow started to see the light- I could see it in his eyes for the first time ever.

Not to say it's all going to be roses and sunshine from now on, but he finally got it when I used the approach listed in the book.

I think if you want to leave, you are in the perfect position to do it next year with your youngest graduating! No child support/custody issues. Just make sure you consult with a lawyer and see what you need to do this year to prepare . . . and maybe when he sees it he may start to rethink his own behavior. Or not. Either way it sounds like you are really thinking hard about your future and that's great.


----------



## Wiserforit

SlowCreek.NoPaddle said:


> I'm getting better at juggling the everyday. Even tonight, I immediately recognized one of his PA moves and blocked it. The problem is that it leaves me feeling completely detached from him. It's like a game of chess, and by default that puts us on opposing sides. It's difficult to "like" him when I'm constantly on the lookout for his next manipulative move. Figuratively, he's like a giant black hole that I need to stay far away from or else I'll get sucked in and never be heard from again. I climbed out of that hole once; I don't know that I could do it again.
> 
> So even if I could learn all the right counter-moves and stick it out, there's no feeling of closeness. Sex is out; our bedroom mirrors the rest of our life -- it's all about him.
> 
> So how do you get your emotional needs met in this kind of relationship?


Well that's the crux of it. 

They are the ones who make it a war, and you can't change that. So why stay with them? 

They are more like dealing with machines than people. I see that some expected them to break down emotionally or apologize for all the emotional pain they caused - 

but the one thing you will never get is empathy.


----------



## DaytoDay

VM, how did you get a diagnosis for P/A?


----------



## diwali123

Wiserforit said:


> Well that's the crux of it.
> 
> They are the ones who make it a war, and you can't change that. So why stay with them?
> 
> They are more like dealing with machines than people. I see that some expected them to break down emotionally or apologize for all the emotional pain they caused -
> 
> but the one thing you will never get is empathy.


I did. After I told him in no uncertain terms that one of us had to leave. And that lasted through the separation into a month into reconciliation when he just went back to his old ways.


----------



## northernlights

With my H, I get either PA behavior from him or total emotional detachment. So my "reward" for not falling into the PA bullsheet is to just be totally ignored. Whee.

The really sad thing about us is that he doesn't seem to need any more emotional closeness, so sometimes I think that ultimately, it's going to come down to the fact that we're just not compatible. Like, even when we were newlyweds and I was totally happy, if I sat down right next to him on the couch, he'd say that I was too close and ask me to move away. And he never wanted sex every day (once a week at the most). Even on our honeymoon I had to push for it. 

I think he could be much happier with a woman more like himself, who doesn't want affection or conversation more than once per week.


----------



## VeggieMom

SlowCreek.NoPaddle said:


> VM, how did you get a diagnosis for P/A?


I read a lot of stuff on the internet, then started reading some books on the subject and they could have been written about my H. Also been to counseling a copule of times but H did not do the homework-- but we talked about PA behavior. Of course I am not a medical professional able to make a diagnosis but I am totally convinced about that H has this behavior pattern. It is not a psychological disease but rather a behavior pattern. There are psych diseases that can include PA behavior but I don't think my H has that.

In H's case I strongly believe he learned this pattern in childhood because of his culture that he comes from that does not allow expression of anger, especially from children to parents, in the family. He has a certain personality type that also lends to him having this behavior pattern and it worked for him in the past, and on top of that he was abused. :-( By a non-family member. Having seen his family interactions and spent a lot of time with them, I really feel that I have the key to his behavior. It's been very very enlightening and validating to read the books.

I am not sure what's going on with your H. A lot of the patterns seem to apply- maybe keep reading and researching and see if you can find if he is PA or something else.


----------



## diwali123

passive-aggressive personality disorder,
a DSM-IV psychiatric disorder characterized by the indirect expression of resistance to occupational or social demands. It results in persistent pervasive ineffectiveness, lack of self-confidence, poor interpersonal relationships, and pessimism that can lead in severe cases to major depression, alcoholism, or drug dependence. The behavior often reflects an unexpressed hostility or resentment stemming from a frustrating interpersonal or institutional relationship on which an individual is overly dependent. Treatment may consist of behavior therapy or any of the various psychotherapeutic procedures, depending on the individual and the severity of the condition.
Mosby's Medical Dictionary, 8th edition. © 2009, Elsevier.
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Passive Aggressive Behaviour
A personality trait marked by a pervasive pattern of negative attitudes and characterised by passive, sometimes obstructionist resistance to complying with expectations in interpersonal or occupational situations
Behaviours Learned helplessness, procrastination, stubbornness, resentment, sullenness, or deliberate/repeated failure to accomplish requested tasks for which one is (often explicitly) responsible
Segen's Medical Dictionary. © 2012 Farlex, Inc. All rights reserved.
passive-aggressive personality disorder 
a personality disorder whose essential features are resistance to the demands of others that is expressed indirectly under the cover of obstructionism, procrastination, stubbornness, dawdling, forgetfulness, and intentional inefficiency combined with negative, defeatist attitudes. The behavior pattern persists even when more effective behavior is possible. Such people are manipulative and attempt to make themselves dependent on others; they are often pessimistic and resentful but do not realize that their ineffective behavior is the source of their problems. Called also negativistic personality disorder.
Miller-Keane Encyclopedia and Dictionary of Medicine, Nursing, and Allied Health, Seventh Edition. © 2003 by Saunders, an imprint of Elsevier, Inc. All rights reserved.
passive-aggressive personality disorder
Psychiatry A personality disorder in which the Pt expresses personal conflicts through retroflexed anger in as covert obstructionism, procrastination, stubbornness, inefficiency; ±1% of the population exhibits passive-aggressive or passive-dependent behavior Defenses Turning against oneself–a form of sado-masochism, denial, rationalization, hypochondriasis Prognosis Poor. Cf 'Anal-retentive.'.
Passive-aggressive personality disorder-diagnostic criteria
A A pervasive pattern of negativistic attitudes and passive resistance to demands for adequate performance, beginning by early adulthood and present in various contexts, indicated by at least four of the following
1. Passive resistance to routine social or occupational obligations
2. Complains of being misunderstood or underappreciated
3. Complains of personal misfortune
4. Sullenness or belligerance (argumentative)
5. Highly critical of authority
6. Resents or is envious of those perceived as being more fortunate
7. Alternates between hostile defiance and contrition
B Not accounted for by dysthymic disorder or occurs exclusively during major depressive episodes
McGraw-Hill Concise Dictionary of Modern Medicine. © 2002 by The McGraw-Hill Companies, Inc.


----------



## Wiserforit

gettingout said:


> J
> Next time around, if there is a next time, I will also pay attention to how a many treats other people - waiters, car parkers, bell boys at hotels. If he treats them rudely or aggressively - I'm done. Big warning sign for me now. Also, do not get involved with someone who hates his mom - ignored my gut on that one!!!


AMEN! 

You'll see many books echo this important clue. Animals too. Cruelty to animals is a lovely trait shared by serial killers. 

Look for places where they think society or you will sanction an outlash of sadistic glee. For example, the most despised criminals in our society are the child molesters. For good reason, but if you have a person that is talking about how he would love to personally crush their testacles in a vice and listen to their screams of agony - this is a person who just needs social sanction to commit torture. So all they need is justification in their own minds and they're perfectly happy to commit torture upon you as well.


----------



## DaytoDay

Thanks for the definition diwali123. I seem to read a different definition everywhere I look, as well as different ways to respond to someone that has PA. The issue I have with the definition you provided is the reference to how they are "sullen" and "critical." My H is not. He is almost always happy and joyful, unless of course I'm complaining about his behavior, then the gloves come off. Based on that, I'm beginning to think I'M the PA one, since I seem to be strung tight as a drum and frequently fighting depression. Though I swear that's directly related to his behavior.

I've also read that PA's are not likely to change unless they acknowledge their problem. Well *my* diagnosis of him doesn't mean anything to him, and *he's* certainly not pouring through books to figure out what's wrong with him, because he doesn't think anything is. It would be nice if there was a specific test, or a cat scan or something.


----------



## diwali123

Look at it like this: 
there is PA behavior and there is PA personality disorder. 
Someone can exhibit PA behavior without having the personality disorder.

Doesn't matter if there is a cat scan, they would say that the test was wrong.


----------



## DaytoDay

> Doesn't matter if there is a cat scan, they would say that the test was wrong.


 Yes, but then *I* could be absolutely sure, instead of questioning myself all the time.
"Maybe I am being unreasonable."
"Maybe I only thought I told him."
"Maybe my expectations really are too high."
"Maybe I shouldn't have assumed he understood and been more clear."
"Maybe I am too critical like he says."
"Maybe this is normal for most M's."
"Maybe I do need to be more forgiving."
etc., etc., etc.


----------



## diwali123

SlowCreek.NoPaddle said:


> Yes, but then *I* could be absolutely sure, instead of questioning myself all the time.
> "Maybe I am being unreasonable."
> "Maybe I only thought I told him."
> "Maybe my expectations really are too high."
> "Maybe I shouldn't have assumed he understood and been more clear."
> "Maybe I am too critical like he says."
> "Maybe this is normal for most M's."
> "Maybe I do need to be more forgiving."
> etc., etc., etc.


Sounds like you need counseling!


----------



## DaytoDay

Me? or us?

We've done both, unfortunately. I'm working on my Co-D and boundaries, but I seem to lose ground all the time with him around.


----------



## diwali123

You. How old are you?


----------



## DaytoDay

Too old to not know better by now. Almost 50.

I don't want to thread-jack.....


----------



## deejov

Long term... well, it was mentioned that you have to realise that you will need to get some of your needs met outside of your marriage. 
Because in some cases, your partner isn't capable of doing that.

Acceptance. The truth. Some people are happy living like that. I don't mind it, really.

The consequence to that is some people (including me) lose enough emotional connection that intimacy is no longer comfortable. 

Once I felt like I figured out the PA stuff a little more, and I understood it, it helped me to not be angry about it so much. So what. I'm not perfect either. I can choose to do whatever I want with my life. I'll be just fine. And I can be happy no matter what.

So what's the deal? I married him. I took that seriously. 
I was thinking about this at work today. I like to be in charge. 
I like having the answers. 

Really, this is easy. It seems like hard work and dodging and games.
But I think it says something about me. I"m arrogant. I'd rather be the healthier partner in the relationship. At least then no one is pointing fingers at me and asking me to do anything. 

Then I had the thought that is one of the reasons why I want to move on. I think deep down I am just looking for another project. 
This one isn't fixable. It's on cruise control. Nothing for me to do anymore. 

There are many things I can say about PA behavior. But they all end with the fact that I choose to be around it. I am astonished by my choices in the past. I'm not going to dwell on regret. It taught me many lessons, and I'm grateful for it. Yes, grateful. 

Without being forced to this place in my life, I would have never done the work on myself that I have done. 

The fact that he can still push my buttons every so often just speaks to me that I need to do some work. And I don't think that ever ends. I don't think it's a destination, but a journey. 

The thoughts that I want to move on are based on my willingness to strike out and try for a real relationship, be brave and confident that I'm capable of not being CD, and be a real partner to someone. 

Does anyone else feel that way?


----------



## diwali123

SlowCreek.NoPaddle said:


> Too old to not know better by now. Almost 50.
> 
> I don't want to thread-jack.....


Well it takes a while to get to the point where you can fully claim your own truth. They are so good at lying and gas lighting. And who wants to believe that someone you love is capable of such cruelty?


----------



## diwali123

deejov said:


> Long term... well, it was mentioned that you have to realise that you will need to get some of your needs met outside of your marriage.
> Because in some cases, your partner isn't capable of doing that.
> 
> Acceptance. The truth. Some people are happy living like that. I don't mind it, really.
> 
> The consequence to that is some people (including me) lose enough emotional connection that intimacy is no longer comfortable.
> 
> Once I felt like I figured out the PA stuff a little more, and I understood it, it helped me to not be angry about it so much. So what. I'm not perfect either. I can choose to do whatever I want with my life. I'll be just fine. And I can be happy no matter what.
> 
> So what's the deal? I married him. I took that seriously.
> I was thinking about this at work today. I like to be in charge.
> I like having the answers.
> 
> Really, this is easy. It seems like hard work and dodging and games.
> But I think it says something about me. I"m arrogant. I'd rather be the healthier partner in the relationship. At least then no one is pointing fingers at me and asking me to do anything.
> 
> Then I had the thought that is one of the reasons why I want to move on. I think deep down I am just looking for another project.
> This one isn't fixable. It's on cruise control. Nothing for me to do anymore.
> 
> There are many things I can say about PA behavior. But they all end with the fact that I choose to be around it. I am astonished by my choices in the past. I'm not going to dwell on regret. It taught me many lessons, and I'm grateful for it. Yes, grateful.
> 
> Without being forced to this place in my life, I would have never done the work on myself that I have done.
> 
> The fact that he can still push my buttons every so often just speaks to me that I need to do some work. And I don't think that ever ends. I don't think it's a destination, but a journey.
> 
> The thoughts that I want to move on are based on my willingness to strike out and try for a real relationship, be brave and confident that I'm capable of not being CD, and be a real partner to someone.
> 
> Does anyone else feel that way?


I think deep down that is part of the reason I wanted to leave. But on the surface I was convinced I would never love again, men were scum, I was incapable of healthy relationships. 

Interesting point about it being a project. I think that was what drew me in. He had issues with communication and he wanted to work on it. I wanted to be the one who helped him. 
Thing is, when we were first together there were many times when he was just quiet. Not an angry quiet. I would ask what he was thinking and he would say "nothing". 
Then the more invested he was in us, the more he started opening up. And I realized that the things he was thinking were all negative, jealous, petty, complaining. 
Then he would get mad because I wanted him to be himself but I didn't want to hear his constant barrage of negativity.


----------



## nishi_25

*you can make "khul"*



VeggieMom said:


> I come here looking for advice and support. I am in a place where I feel stuck and I just need to learn to endure and find joy in a difficult situation. I am interested in hearing from others who have made this choice and what they do to make their home life and personal life as happy as possible in spite of living with a very difficult spouse.
> 
> We have been married for 15+ years. It started out very nice of course, but within weeks I saw warning signs of what I now know is passive aggressive behavior. My husband was sexually abused as a child by a friend of the family. He lived in a family and culture where emotions were not encouraged to be expressed, obedience and respect to parents was the law, and everyone is supposed to just pretend all is well no matter what. He never told his parents about the abuse.
> 
> My husband is at heart a good person. He has been 100% faithful to me, remained employed, our children know he loves them very much, he his honest and never had problems with substance abuse, gambling, etc. He is charming and everyone thinks he's so nice and I'm so lucky to have him as my spouse. He has a hard time saying no to others, again part of how he was raised.
> 
> Some of the warning signs that I saw in the beginning was the cold shoulder, disrespecting my requests and then when I told him I felt sad about it, he blew me off with "lighten up" or "what's the big deal?" Promises that were forgotten, putting up roadblocks, flipping the blame when I tried to talk to him about something, and other maddening things. I first thought there was something wrong with me. He would make me so mad and frustrated I would blow up and then he would tell me I had an anger problem, didn't need to shout, etc.
> 
> Some examples of this are:
> 1) I requested he not use my bath towel, that we have separate towels. He continued for years to "forget" and use my towel. I tried color coding, initials, separate racks, etc, but he always "forgot" or said what was the big deal. Now I just get a new towel every time and have a lot of laundry.
> 
> 2) Went on vacation with promises and plans to see some certain scenic places. Met friends there and he decided to spend all his time with the guys and never did take me to see the scenic places. And, because I didn't have my name on the car rental agreement, I could not drive myself to those places.
> 
> 3) Forced me to live with broken things around the house. Neither of us is handy with things like this so I asked if we can hire someone. He said no, he will fix it. But he didn't. I lived for weeks with two broken toilets, one was flushed with buckets of water, one didn't work at all. Finally hired a plumber and he gave me a hard time about the cost. Also lived without a working dishwasher for about a year because we could not afford a new one (single income family at the time). And yet he found room to donate a few *hundred* dollars a month to a religious organization, without my blessing. I finally got my new dishwasher after I told him my hands were cracked (I have eczema) and I was going to get paper plates and cups, disposable baby bottles, and save the pots and pans for him to do because I just could not do it anymore. Within a month we had the new dishwasher.
> 
> 4) Does not communicate well with me which causes endless frustration. Example I signed the kids up for a sports class on a weeknight, one night a week only. In the past he had taken them to the class. The first three weeks of the class he said he would take them, but then at the last minute he came home saying he couldn't- once he wasn't feeling well- I can understand that. Twice he said he wanted go to the gym instead. Each time he said he would take them next week and of course did not. So today is the fourth week and I now assume he's not taking them again, and don't even bother to ask for fear of entering into another argument. So he comes home and says he's taking them after I was all ready with keys in hand to take them myself.
> 
> 5) Criticizes things and complains constantly and it makes me go insane. Complains about the mess and clutter but does not offer to help pick it up. Criticizes me for having too much stuff, not being organized enough, using too many pots and pans when I cook a meal. I bought a card table and set up a jigsaw puzzle on it so I can watch TV and he complained that the table was ugly. I can't relax and be myself in my own home. And it's not a messy home, just a lived-in home with two kids and two working adults.
> 
> 6) If I bring up any controversial topic, even if I set aside a time we can both talk, and we sit down in a quiet place and I tell him my concerns using the "I feel" method, with the goal being to find a solution, he finds a way to flip the conversation around to being my fault and then feel the need to defend myself. He also interrupts me constantly or shows with body language that he is not interested (sighing, looking at watch, opening a magazine).
> 
> 7) Spends endless time on the computer. Says he's doing "important work" and sometimes he is indeed doing his work from home, but other times he just disappears into the bedroom with snack and remains on the computer watching movies or whatever.
> 
> 8) Would never think of taking me on a date. Ever. Finds ways to sabotage any plans we agree on. Like insisting that on date night, he needs to go to the gym first, which means he's not home until 8:30 PM. Forgetting our date nights and when he realizes he's forgotten he insists on doing whatever plans he's made instead. If we end up going on the date and having a nice time, or being intimate (which is very very rare) he will act grumpy, pick fights or push me away emotionally the next day.
> 
> 9) Gets me gifts that hurt, or nothing at all. Past years for Christmas I have received: a newspaper ad for a bedroom set I wanted, with promises to buy "someday" and never did. A gift card to Home Depot, which matched the one he got my step-father which was bought Christmas Eve after he forgot he was supposed to give him a gift. Many occasions I got nothing at all. Valentine's Day is a "stupid holiday."
> 
> 10) I have asked him many times over the years to please let me know if he goes to the grocery store after work, in case I need some things. He will "forget" to call me and come home with bags of groceries and then I have to make a separate trip which is a huge time-waster. Or, if I send him with a list he will forget several things on the list. If I underline that I want two of something for a recipe or whatever, he will come home with one and say, "But I thought one would be enough-- why do you need two?" He feigns innocence and says he forgot, but it happens 90% of the time, so I feel he is doing it on purpose.
> 
> 11) We have attempted many times to share the housework including schedules and calendars and such. He agrees on it. I even let him pick what he wants to do and I take the rest. He then neglects the housework and when I remind him he lists about 10 things he had to do instead. I have tried letting it sit and get dirtier but after a month the bathroom needs cleaning, and I will end up doing it myself. With no comments from him for a noticeably cleaner bathroom.
> 
> Recent argument as an example: I had a box of legos the kids didn't want anymore. Asked H (hubby) if he wanted them for his nephew the next time he visits. He said yes, absolutely. Legos had been sitting in the livingroom in a box for over a week. I put the box near his side of the bed. He put the box back in the livingroom. I said I didn't want the box in the livingroom, can he find a place to store it? I suggested the garage or his side of the closet (we have a small house and space is limited). He said the livingroom was already a cluttered mess as usual, so it would not hurt to have the box there. I said I was trying to clean up the livingroom, could he put it somewhere else if he wanted it? Otherwise I can donate it to Goodwill if we don't have room and buy more legos for nephew later. He said no, it can stay in the livingroom. I said how about the garage? He said he would sort through the legos "later" and decide if he wants them or which ones he wants. I said I really, really don't want the box in the livingroom anymore. I suggest the garage again. He says he needs to organize the garage first to make room for legos. (The garage is not that disorganized or crowded). Finally I say, I don't care at this point if you want the legos or not, I just don't want it in the livingroom, and if it stays in there I will donate it to Goodwill in two days. He accuses me of pressuring him into something he's not ready to deal with, and calls me a bully. I walk away in tears of frustration and anger. The legos get donated to Goodwill two days later. I get the cold shoulder for several days and passive aggressive behavior, and accusations that I have gotten rid of a perfectly good box of legos that he could have given his nephew.
> 
> I realized somewhere along the way that although I do have my faults too, this marriage and the way it has turned out is because I am trying way harder than he has. We have tried counseling but he won't do the homework. Or he only does it to convince me to stay a little longer when I'm about to pack my bags and leave, and then I resolve to give him another chance and he promises to make changes, and then usually two weeks later things are bad again.
> 
> I don't love him anymore. I think he can be a decent person to others, to our children, to society as a whole. He just is not good to me or for me. We have not had sex in months and I honestly don't miss it because it's hard to be intimate with someone who hurts you emotionally so much. Sex is based on trust and love.
> 
> I have seriously thought about leaving many times. But I have come to the conclusion that it's not the right choice right now. If I had unlimited funds, yeah maybe I would do that. But I choose to work part time so I can be there for the kids because they need me right now and I enjoy my relationship with them immensely. They are what keep me going, and I am a good mom and my kids and I are very close. We are invested in our home and in a good financial place right now that we can afford classes for the kids, braces, good health insurance, and planning for retirement and kids college. If I were to divorce I would have to work full time again and we could not afford to live as comfortably as we do now. Having lived on a single income for 10 years as a stay at home mom before I got my current job, it was a real struggle to make ends meet and now we are doing better.
> 
> Divorce is not always the right answer. Maybe someday I will get divorced when the kids are out of the house, but right now is not the time. I dream of one day having a nice little peaceful home and surrounded by children and grandchildren, and no sulking sourpuss cold shouldered husband to dampen my mood.
> 
> But for now, I need to learn to live in this difficult situation and maintain my sanity, and not lose myself in the process. I need to find ways to not have him get under my skin and cause me to lose my temper and get so incredibly frustrated and walk around with that bad feeling in the pit of my stomach whenever he's in the room. We still need to sometimes communicate about things in regards to running the household and I need to be able to accomplish that without it turning into an unproductive, time-wasting, emotionally draining argument.
> 
> I want to hear from those who are or were in my situation and get some advice on how to maintain the status quo for now. I appreciate your support. And please do not tell me to get a divorce-- as I said I have given this lots of thought and it's just not what I choose to do right now.




You can propose divorce because he is emotionally unfit for you, but u will not have your financial right of the divorce, and u must pay back the dowri he gave you, example, the ring. Then you should wait some years if u remarry. If you dont want to do this, you should stay with him, and have him seek help from friends or family. Have someone sit down with him and talk to him about how you are feeling, maybe if he hears it from someone close to him. Hope this helps


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## deejov

I _was _incapable of healthy relationships. That was the truth.


How does a PA manage to live with someone who is always challenging them and throwing consequences at them? Why would they choose to?

I think about that sometimes. 
Why does my H stay with ME? Why wouldn't he move on?

He must be miserable. He can't possibly be happy in this situation. 
His world must feel turned upside down. Why wouldn't he just simply move on to a more CD person and continue doing what he knows how?


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## diwali123

deejov said:


> I _was _incapable of healthy relationships. That was the truth.
> 
> 
> How does a PA manage to live with someone who is always challenging them and throwing consequences at them? Why would they choose to?
> 
> I think about that sometimes.
> Why does my H stay with ME? Why wouldn't he move on?
> 
> He must be miserable. He can't possibly be happy in this situation.
> His world must feel turned upside down. Why wouldn't he just simply move on to a more CD person and continue doing what he knows how?


With my ex? It was war. He thought he could wear me down until I gave up. He kept escalating his behavior until he was threatening suicide, destroying property, having tantrums, putting holes in doors. 
I think he really thought he could wear me down by promising to help with a baby and then abandoning us emotionally. 
It just made me more determined.

One day when I was in a good mood (he hated that) our d was about one. We had a rotisserie chicken for dinner. He pulled off a leg and it was so tender most of the meat stayed on the chicken. 
It was funny: I smiled and I picked off a small piece of that meat.
This ended up in a three day silent treatment. Because I took his piece of meat and I should know what a big deal that is, and just because it means nothing to me doesn't mean it means nothing to him.


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## deejov

I mean.. when one is using boundaries and consequences, and the PA crap no longer works... why would the PA person stay?


When you get to the point of "I'm not okay with that" and there are few or no arguments, and it's obvious the PA person isn't getting all they want... why don't they leave?

I don't quite see why my H would stay. His PA stuff gets shot down.
He's seen a lot of consequences for his own actions \ lack of actions.

That's the point I'm at. He is far from wearing me down. It just doesn't work like it used to. 

Why would HE stay, when we sleep in separate bedrooms, no sex, I don't wear wedding rings, do my own thing most of the time, have no expectations from him, have told him he's fired as a spouse, don't tolerate the putting down attitude, call him on his behavior constantly?


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## diwali123

I don't know. Maybe he doesn't want to go through the trouble of a D? 
He doesn't think he will find someone else? Too lazy?


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## DaytoDay

deejov, I've asked the same question many times. 

Perhaps it's because they need to sustain a false image of themselves, in their own head and in the eyes of others. For them to file for D would make them a failure. My H is still angry at his first W for D'ing him, and it's been 20 years.


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## AVR1962

northernlights said:


> With my H, I get either PA behavior from him or total emotional detachment. So my "reward" for not falling into the PA bullsheet is to just be totally ignored. Whee.
> 
> The really sad thing about us is that he doesn't seem to need any more emotional closeness, so sometimes I think that ultimately, it's going to come down to the fact that we're just not compatible. Like, even when we were newlyweds and I was totally happy, if I sat down right next to him on the couch, he'd say that I was too close and ask me to move away. And he never wanted sex every day (once a week at the most). Even on our honeymoon I had to push for it.
> 
> I think he could be much happier with a woman more like himself, who doesn't want affection or conversation more than once per week.


NortherLights, have long have you and your husband been married? What you have described is the very thing I am so tired of. We have had sex 4 times in 3 1/2 years. When the other things are lacking in the marriage sex is just not possible I don't think, at least not for me. It has been me probably 85% of the time during these 24 years that has pursued him for sex but what I realized after many years is that what I was actually pursuing was my hopes of any kind of closeness with him, any kind of loving action but even sex is not intimate, it's disconnected. It's almost like he approaches it like a duty or obligation but I am not sure he wants the actual bond or connection.


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## AVR1962

deejov said:


> Does anyone else feel that way?


I do understand. In my case, like you, I want the closeness. I want to be able to talk, I want the connection. I want someone to say they love me and mean it. I want someone to be interested in me and have that sincerely come from their heart rather than quoting a line a counselor has told him to say. I want involvement. I would like to be able to share a bag of popcorn. I know that sounds stupid but everything husband does he has to have separation. If we got to the movie and buy popcorn he will not take any as long as I hold the bag. If he hold the bag then he will not offer me any so we have gone to either separate bags or I will take a little and he gets the rest. I know it sounds petty but everything in our lives is this way. All of our accounts are separate. If I start helping him with a project he will leave the rest to me so I have learned not to get involved with projects. We do NOTHING together and it builds no connection. Our lives are completely separate and totally detached.

The only thing I feel differently from yourself is that I don't want to get into another situation I try to fix, help or make better. I am hoping I have learned from this marriage and won't encounter this again. I am in therapy and have been for over 2 years. I am trying to get myself healthy so I can move on with some happiness in my life.


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## AVR1962

SlowCreek.NoPaddle said:


> For them to file for D would make them a failure. My H is still angry at his first W for D'ing him, and it's been 20 years.


My husband did file for divorce from his first wife. He told me, his family and friends that he thought she was having an affair which justified the divorce. He got the support he wanted from everyone. I fell for it at first too but then became suspicious. With more questions asked I realized his ex was going to out with girlfriends and they may have spoke to some men but she was not having an affair. See it was okay for him to kiss on the neighbor lady and talk to her on the phone when he was first married to his first wife just like it was okay for him to be infatuated with various women in our marriage BUT NO ONE is allowed to hurt him and so his first wife had to punished. He locked her out of the house and when she tried to take a few things from the house, he demanded them back. He filed for custody of their children. She had not worked so she had no money for an attorney and lost the case only because she had not tried. He then would have absolutely nothing to do with her.


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## AVR1962

diwali123 said:


> I think that you were being manipulative somewhat. It seems like you didn't really just want to relay the information, you wanted him to break down and cry and beg.
> And I get that. Were you really serious about separating or trying to see what he would do?
> But sometimes when people hear that the other partner is done, they are in shock and don't know what to say at all.
> As a counselor used to tell me "keep
> Your side of the street clean." make sure you aren't pulled into being manipulative. It's so hard with people like that.


My own emotions surprised me. I had no idea in the forefront of my mind at the time I told my husband that all I really really wanted was for him to break down and tell me he loved me and would do what it took to keep our marriage together. But I can see that staying is only going to be the same agony. It really is not within him. I do not even know if he connects at all to people. In our entire marriage he has had only two men I could say were true friends, that he actually spent any kind of time with and those have both come about in the past 5 years.


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## northernlights

AVR1962 said:


> NortherLights, have long have you and your husband been married? What you have described is the very thing I am so tired of. We have had sex 4 times in 3 1/2 years. When the other things are lacking in the marriage sex is just not possible I don't think, at least not for me. It has been me probably 85% of the time during these 24 years that has pursued him for sex but what I realized after many years is that what I was actually pursuing was my hopes of any kind of closeness with him, any kind of loving action but even sex is not intimate, it's disconnected. It's almost like he approaches it like a duty or obligation but I am not sure he wants the actual bond or connection.


We've been married 9 years, together 13. For the first 5 or so years we were together, I think I initiated ALL the sex. I'd get turned down really often, because I wanted sex daily and H is a once-a-week kind of guy. Eventually all that rejection wore on me, and I stopped initiating. I still remember the first time I put on a sexy black lace bra and panty set and climbed into bed, and he rolled over and just went to sleep. I thought it was a joke and first, and waited there in the dark for him to say "Kidding!"
Yeah, no. 
So now, we rarely have sex. Only when I really, really need it. And it's always been the same as you describe--totally an emotionally disconnected experience. 

At this point (at the ripe old age of 34), I can't even imagine having the kind of relationship I used to want with another person. I'm lucky to have close relationships with my family and friends I've had since I was a child. I'm sure it's possible that I'd feel differently if we divorced and I had time to get past this whole thing, but right now, I don't want another man in my life. Still far too drained from this one to even think about giving again.


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## DaytoDay

I'm with you, Northernlights. I don't want to be in another R. I've been "alone" for so long in this R, I wouldn't know what to do. Besides, H claims that he is a "typical" guy, so why would I want another?

Ironically, I have much of what many of you are complaining about. I have a man that wants frequent sex, but doesn't believe women "O" and therefore don't enjoy it as much as men so why bother trying to please them.

I have a H that says he wants to share a bag of popcorn, but then douses it in something I don't like so he gets the whole thing himself anyway.

He always wants to help with my projects, but invariably messes something else. No one can actually be as careless or clumsy as he is.

I spend all of my time trying to keep H at a distance, because I'm trying to get him to stop doing things "to" me. I can't even imagine what I would want him to do "for" me.


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## AVR1962

northernlights said:


> We've been married 9 years, together 13. For the first 5 or so years we were together, I think I initiated ALL the sex. I'd get turned down really often, because I wanted sex daily and H is a once-a-week kind of guy. Eventually all that rejection wore on me, and I stopped initiating. I still remember the first time I put on a sexy black lace bra and panty set and climbed into bed, and he rolled over and just went to sleep. I thought it was a joke and first, and waited there in the dark for him to say "Kidding!"
> Yeah, no.
> So now, we rarely have sex. Only when I really, really need it. And it's always been the same as you describe--totally an emotionally disconnected experience.
> 
> At this point (at the ripe old age of 34), I can't even imagine having the kind of relationship I used to want with another person. I'm lucky to have close relationships with my family and friends I've had since I was a child. I'm sure it's possible that I'd feel differently if we divorced and I had time to get past this whole thing, but right now, I don't want another man in my life. Still far too drained from this one to even think about giving again.


I can so identify with everything you have said. I am 50, husband is 53. We have been married 21 years and have been together for 24. As newlyweds I had approached husband for sex, he turned me down but seemed angry so I asked him the next day what that was all about. He said he wanted me to feel what it was like to be rejected. Seriously? but that is my husband!


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## Wiserforit

SlowCreek.NoPaddle said:


> deejov, I've asked the same question many times.
> 
> Perhaps it's because they need to sustain a false image of themselves, in their own head and in the eyes of others. For them to file for D would make them a failure. My H is still angry at his first W for D'ing him, and it's been 20 years.


It isn't that easy getting inside the head of a disordered mind. You'll never quite have it because in the end it is so self-destructive that it makes no sense to the rational mind. So it comes down to whether you can live with how you are _treated_. 



ACR1962 said:


> If we got to the movie and buy popcorn he will not take any as long as I hold the bag. If he hold the bag then he will not offer me any so we have gone to either separate bags or I will take a little and he gets the rest. I know it sounds petty but everything in our lives is this way.


Maybe it sounds petty to normal people, but to them these are matters of life and death. My covert-aggressive wife had to be dominating me in any physical capacity. 

She always walked just slightly ahead of me, even holding hands side-by-side. She made excuses about me being half an inch shorter, that I walked slow, etc. One day I started walking a little faster to come abreast of her. She speeded up. I walked faster still. She matched me. Faster. I started jogging. Running. I was looking at her laughing while she pretended not to understand what was going on, asking me what I was doing.  She never admitted to this obsession.


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## AVR1962

Wiserforit said:


> It isn't that easy getting inside the head of a disordered mind. You'll never quite have it because in the end it is so self-destructive that it makes no sense to the rational mind. So it comes down to whether you can live with how you are _treated_.
> 
> I TOTALLY AGREE!!


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## northernlights

Wiserforit said:


> She always walked just slightly ahead of me, even holding hands side-by-side. She made excuses about me being half an inch shorter, that I walked slow, etc. One day I started walking a little faster to come abreast of her. She speeded up. I walked faster still. She matched me. Faster. I started jogging. Running. I was looking at her laughing while she pretended not to understand what was going on, asking me what I was doing. She never admitted to this obsession.


OMG, this is my H too. I've never taken it as far as a run, but the faster I go, the faster he goes, just to stay ahead. It's insane.


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## deejov

This is interesting.
I'm the one that does this! And I take off in the store, leave him the list. Meet up at the checkout. 

But I do it because PDA implies a happy relationship. 
He used to do it because of the same reason. 
We are not happy. He is always mad about something.


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## diwali123

deejov said:


> This is interesting.
> I'm the one that does this! And I take off in the store, leave him the list. Meet up at the checkout.
> 
> But I do it because PDA implies a happy relationship.
> He used to do it because of the same reason.
> We are not happy. He is always mad about something.


I fired my ex from helping grocery shop. I couldn't pull anything off the shelf without him arguing that it was wrong, too expensive, too cheap, not needed. 
Just easier to go by myself or make him go alone.


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## deejov

Yup, you know the story. I'm embarrased to say this... but I go because I pay! (I make more money, and I eat a very particular way which isn't cheap) but I like that he pushes the cart and I can go browse somewhere else. without being interrupted.


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## Wiserforit

diwali123 said:


> I fired my ex from helping grocery shop. I couldn't pull anything off the shelf without him arguing that it was wrong, too expensive, too cheap, not needed.
> Just easier to go by myself or make him go alone.



Hahahahah! Mine too. Look how happy people are shopping in a grocery store. She made me miserable. 

Before going in the next-to-last time, I made a stand before we went in. She saw it coming, as these personalities watch for it like a hawk, and she tried to turn the tables on me and interrupt, making it my fault. I had to really put my foot down. Shut up. This is it - one last chance. You act like you normally do, attacking me for every choice I make, and I am never shopping with you again.

So every can I picked up, instead of arguing with me it was "Oh that's great, we really needed that, are you sure you don't want more of it?" She couldn't do it! Every item had to be "managed" by her. Not one thing could be picked up and put in the cart with her leaving me in peace. Every choice meant DEALING with her. 

So yes, I fired her. In a lot of things that couples normally do together. And it got to the point where you ask why you are a couple if you can't do anything together, including intimacy.


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## Wonderinginnc

northernlights said:


> OMG, this is my H too. I've never taken it as far as a run, but the faster I go, the faster he goes, just to stay ahead. It's insane.


My husband does this too. I can also relate to the popcorn story. Reading this thread has been eye-opening as I see my relationship in so many of yours. For so many years, I been mad to feel like my expectations were too high, or the way we are was all my fault.


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## AVR1962

Wonderinginnc said:


> My husband does this too. I can also relate to the popcorn story. Reading this thread has been eye-opening as I see my relationship in so many of yours. For so many years, I been mad to feel like my expectations were too high, or the way we are was all my fault.


I have asked this question of myself so many times- am I expecting too much, have I caused him to distance himself, am I overbearing, have I not tried in the right way. In the book, "Women Who Love Too Much" this is typical of us. I think it is good to examine what we are doing or not doing but I have been observing at the same time. Noticing other men's reactions to things and listening to what they talk about. We have friends whose husband do talk about the concerns of their families without prompting. My husband would NEVER do this.


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## AVR1962

Wiserforit said:


> She always walked just slightly ahead of me, even holding hands side-by-side. She made excuses about me being half an inch shorter, that I walked slow, etc. One day I started walking a little faster to come abreast of her. She speeded up. I walked faster still. She matched me. Faster. I started jogging. Running. I was looking at her laughing while she pretended not to understand what was going on, asking me what I was doing. She never admitted to this obsession.


My husband is just the opposite. He wants to walk just a little bit behind me so he can check-out at all the women.


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## AVR1962

I am really thankful for this discussion, I have needed this for so long. It's one thing to know I am not alone and that my thought processes are those of others dealing with the same but at the same time I question the way to move fwd. Reading all the self help books I have and being in counseling I has helped me to truly see how dysfunctional my relationship with my husband is but if I leave him I fear getting myself back into a situation just as bad. Maybe he would not be PA or an alcoholic but it could be something else.

This is my second marriage. I have 2 daughters from my first marriage, husband had 2 sons and we raised them all together as family since the youngest was 3. The kids have all suffered greatly from the divorces and I have no doubt they have suffered as a result of the alcohol use and the PA situation they lived with every day. All but one is blaming and angry. Not angry at the parents that abandoned them but at us. We have one child together (16) and my biggest fear in leaving my husband and trying to start a new life is what this could do to her. Anyone else dealing with this type of thought?

Random question here: I was thinking of asking my husband if he could imagine I was someone new and basically tell me what he feels happened in our marriage. If you were to ask your spouse the same could he/she answer that question? I think my husband would have a hard time.


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## VeggieMom

Just popped in to say thread-jack all you want! I love hearing everyone's stories, advice, input. 

I'm in the middle of my work week (I work a wacky 12 hour night shift schedule), so it will take awhile to catch up. But please continue and I am looking forward to learning from you all when I get back.


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## SaltInWound

AVR1962 said:


> Random question here: I was thinking of asking my husband if he could imagine I was someone new and basically tell me what he feels happened in our marriage. If you were to ask your spouse the same could he/she answer that question? I think my husband would have a hard time.


He may not give you a straight answer. Mine said, "There doesn't have to be a reason". That is easier than admitting the truth.


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## diwali123

At various points mine said "we have an unfair relationship" with him being the victim of course, "we are both abusive", and "something is wrong with you, you drive me nuts".


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## northernlights

AVR1962 said:


> Random question here: I was thinking of asking my husband if he could imagine I was someone new and basically tell me what he feels happened in our marriage. If you were to ask your spouse the same could he/she answer that question? I think my husband would have a hard time.


I doubt my husband could. Even though we discussed the reasons for our separation with the MC in February, he told me in May that he had "no idea" what it was for. Nice.


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## DaytoDay

^^^ This is what I get, NorthernLights. We can talk for hours, read entire books, go to months of counseling, but he will still have NO CLUE what I'm so angry with him about.


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## SaltInWound

SlowCreek.NoPaddle said:


> ^^^ This is what I get, NorthernLights. We can talk for hours, read entire books, go to months of counseling, but he will still have NO CLUE what I'm so angry with him about.


Maybe it is because the reason behind why you are angry is not important. All that matters is that you are.


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## DaytoDay

Not sure what that means, SIW. I know I'm trying to apply logic to his thinking and obviously that doesn't work so well, but if a good friend was mad at me, *I* would want to know why so I could correct it.


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## SaltInWound

SlowCreek.NoPaddle said:


> Not sure what that means, SIW. I know I'm trying to apply logic to his thinking and obviously that doesn't work so well, but if a good friend was mad at me, *I* would want to know why so I could correct it.


He doesn't want to correct it. He wants to keep you angry, because that is what makes him happy. I call it controlled chaos....the way he pretends to care and yet you can never get through to him. Why you are angry doesn't matter to him. All that matters is that you are. There is no logical thinking involved. Stop being concerned with WHY or getting him to understand. You will only frustrate yourself and he likes that too.


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## diwali123

It's working for him, why change it? 
Remember they want you to be mad. They enjoy it. So they don't see a problem.


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## diwali123

SaltInWound said:


> He doesn't want to correct it. He wants to keep you angry, because that is what makes him happy. I call it controlled chaos....the way he pretends to care and yet you can never get through to him. Why you are angry doesn't matter to him. All that matters is that you are. There is no logical thinking involved. Stop being concerned with WHY or getting him to understand. You will only frustrate yourself and he likes that too.


We posted at the same time. Sorry.


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## SaltInWound

diwali123 said:


> We posted at the same time. Sorry.


Don't apologize. It just proves what the bottom line is.


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## deejov

diwali123 said:


> It's working for him, why change it?
> Remember they want you to be mad. They enjoy it. So they don't see a problem.


Here there is a small diff in my situation.
I did truly find a way to be happy in life. 

I have to think hard about it... has his behavior changed that much, or do I just not get angry about it as much? It's a bit of both.

He gets left alone a lot. I'm quite capable of making my own plans and going out and having fun. He's discovered he has to get ahead of that if he wants any time with me. And if he has a bad attitude... then together time is over. Calmly. I have choices. I got tired of being mad all the time. I redirect myself to more positive things. 

We have found a way to be friends. I accept the way he is, I don't always choose to be around it. 

But it doesn't change the fact that I get lonely. Even though we live together. Because it's not an intimate relationship. That's not his fault. It's mine. I can leave anytime.


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## deejov

AVR,
I have a similar wish to have my H see me as I really am, not the monster he pins the punishment on for various things. 

It's slowly going away. I think it's normal for people to form an opinion and not be very willing to change that. 

It's not a very good motivator though. If someone sees me a nag, and controlling, why should I bother to be any different?
I try hard not to think about what my H thinks about me. It doesn't matter. I have a strong will to stay true to me, and toss off his opinions. Everyone has their own point of view on the past. 

I'm interested in how others see it, as a way of measuring whether or not I am seeing myself correctly. A check up.
But i have learned that the check up should be a safe person.
Which is why I come to TAM. I will get a 2x4 if I need it. 


One thing my H has started doing lately. It's kinda dumb to even mention it, but I am "questioning" how I see it.

It's an inside joke about men in camoflauge pants. I think it's kinda sexy. A loooong time ago, if H put on his camo pants, he would have an alpha attitude and he knew it kinda turned me on. 

Twice last weekend, he made a point of putting them on, and he even gave me a hug and smiled and shook his hips at me, but then he used a teasing voice "oh, look what I have on"

The thing is, he won't ever initiate anything beyond a 2 second kiss or a hug. There is no sex life. 

My first instinct was to think "he might actually be trying to be intimate!". But of course, other than pointing it out to me, that's all it was.

Which made me think later... he was only trying to tease me or get a reaction out of me. Trying to be mean or cruel.... thinking he was going to get hot and bothered and turn me down. Huh. That's pretty negative to think that.

I just smiled and laughed and smacked his butt. I remember thinking at the moment, oh, I'm not interested, dude. I can get NSA. I don't want that. Which is what he is, to me. 

So do I need a 2x4 for even thinking about these things?


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## deejov

And then to compound the problem, I did try and get even with him.

It was really hot here the other day. I sleep in panties only. Instead of putting on a robe before I went to the kitchen in the morning, I wandered around in just my panties. 

Normally, we both sit in the kitchen and have coffee before work. Chew about plans for the day. 

It made him so uncomfortable he couldn't stay in the same room. 
Ha!


----------



## Wiserforit

AVR1962 said:


> Random question here: I was thinking of asking my husband if he could imagine I was someone new and basically tell me what he feels happened in our marriage. If you were to ask your spouse the same could he/she answer that question? I think my husband would have a hard time.


Their modus operandi is deception, so no - this won't work. Your inquisitive mind says "he won't talk openly and above-board with me so what novel approach can I take to crack him open..." and the problem is he'll be the same manipulative person no matter what you do. 

My wife had been sexually molested by her father, along with her two sisters, for over a decade. It was the worst kind of child rape, regularly, that you can imagine. I had no idea.

To her, intimacy was war. Her whole gig was making me suffer. For seven looooong years I begged her to tell me WTF was wrong. What is going on inside your head. She played dumb most of the time and denied anything was going on, but also led me on one wild goose chase after another. The bed making noise, the position we were using, stimulate me with your hand at the same time - and she would actually fake like there was slight improvement in order to trick me. But invariably nothing worked and I eventually quit having sex with her altogether because it was so miserable. 

Telling me the truth would have been that "my father raped me every day so I hate men and I am trying to make you suffer". 

My flash of insight came like thunder one day. I asked myself "If she wants me to be happy, then why am I always so miserable?" Then it struck me: _she wants me to be miserable_. Suddenly everythng made perfect sense. It was hideous but explained everything over the last seven years. 

*deejov* - see how the behavior with the pants is manipulative instead of open and above-board? They thrive on you not knowing what they are up to. Confusing you, making you spend mental energy anguishing over what things mean is exercising power over you. You don't have to second-guess what sincere people are up to. It is all straightforward, above-board, and honest. 

If you ask him why he put the pants on, you'll get evasion and diversion. I don't know. I thought you would like it. Etc. It's no life to live getting caught up in tit-for-tat with the panties. For one thing, they love to point the finger at you and say that you are doing it too, so his manipulation is justified.


----------



## diwali123

Wiserforit said:


> Their modus operandi is deception, so no - this won't work. Your inquisitive mind says "he won't talk openly and above-board with me so what novel approach can I take to crack him open..." and the problem is he'll be the same manipulative person no matter what you do.
> 
> My wife had been sexually molested by her father, along with her two sisters, for over a decade. It was the worst kind of child rape, regularly, that you can imagine. I had no idea.
> 
> To her, intimacy was war. Her whole gig was making me suffer. For seven looooong years I begged her to tell me WTF was wrong. What is going on inside your head. She played dumb most of the time and denied anything was going on, but also led me on one wild goose chase after another. The bed making noise, the position we were using, stimulate me with your hand at the same time - and she would actually fake like there was slight improvement in order to trick me. But invariably nothing worked and I eventually quit having sex with her altogether because it was so miserable.
> 
> Telling me the truth would have been that "my father raped me every day so I hate men and I am trying to make you suffer".
> 
> My flash of insight came like thunder one day. I asked myself "If she wants me to be happy, then why am I always so miserable?" Then it struck me: _she wants me to be miserable_. Suddenly everythng made perfect sense. It was hideous but explained everything over the last seven years.
> 
> *deejov* - see how the behavior with the pants is manipulative instead of open and above-board? They thrive on you not knowing what they are up to. Confusing you, making you spend mental energy anguishing over what things mean is exercising power over you. You don't have to second-guess what sincere people are up to. It is all straightforward, above-board, and honest.
> 
> If you ask him why he put the pants on, you'll get evasion and diversion. I don't know. I thought you would like it. Etc. It's no life to live getting caught up in tit-for-tat with the panties. For one thing, they love to point the finger at you and say that you are doing it too, so his manipulation is justified.


I'm so sorry. I was molested too and I feel like its my duty to be honest about it with my partners, I don't get this mentality.


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## deejov

Wiser,
The thing is... I don't CARE if he likes me or not. I don't care if he is one-upping me or thinks he is. He will never change his opinion on me being the monster that should be punished. 

I have no intentions of ever having sex with him.

And yes some days I feel like I am teaching him a lesson. 
It seems to be what he understands the most. 
Play the game the way he does.

He's holding my HD against me. It's funny, because while he was wearing the pants all day, he made a comment. He was warm sitting in the sun. I said I was cool. I was in the shade. He got up, walked by me, and casually turned his head and asked me if I was "hot" in another way. 

I simply answered, "I always am". 

But yet I made NO move towards him. I could almost see his brain trying to comprehend that. He got the message. Just not for him. 

yeah, he made me question my own behavior. I'm okay with that. Because I need to be tested. To make sure I'm staying on the right path  

I sometimes think I need to work more on this. 
I don't want to develop a habit of thinking everything he does is manipulation. I don't think that will be healthy for me to unlearn later. 

There will be a later.


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## pink_lady

SlowCreek.NoPaddle said:


> I found my sex life with H rather unsatisfying, literally. In an attempt to get H to "man up" after another particularly unsatisfying round, I told him that we were "on" the next night. But this time, since he knew he had the green light, I wanted him to come to me "like a man that knew what he wanted and would not be denied." I wanted to literally smell the testosterone in the air, and by the time he was finished, know that I had been completely owned by him.
> 
> So the next night, H comes to bed, knows he's on, does his regular routine. I'm stunned, having looked forward the entire day to what the evening had in store, giggling to myself all day that H was probably tied behind his desk with a woody. I delicately asked H if that was his effort to my request, sensitive to his manly ego.
> 
> He said he had forgotten.


My husband supposedly wanted more sex but he would never initiate. And of course I was exponentially losing respect for him so my desire for him was dramatically diminishing also.

At dinner one night I told him exactly what to do to get me going quickly. It's something very simple- no skill or advanced technique required but will work every time. Did he ever do it? Once he made a very feeble effort that was obviously meant to frustrate me, and never bothered again.

Why he thought I would stay with him and put up with that the rest of my life I have no idea. I would much rather be alone.


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## diwali123

Do you think they are happiest when they are with someone who also is PA? Someone who also wants to be miserable? 
I don't know. My ex is now with a woman who was my good friend. I know that her tolerance for bad behavior is much higher than mine: and her need for intimacy and time together is much lower than mine. Maybe that's the key.


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## pink_lady

deejov said:


> The thought of starting over and being single. But I already feel single, I don't have a partner.
> I'm just tired of pretending he is a husband. He's not.
> .


:iagree: This is EXACTLY it. After I moved out...it didn't feel that much different, except I was less on edge all the time. My P-A, narcissistic spouse was not a partner in any way. Though it hurts to admit it, I don't think he ever really cared about me as a person, just as a thing- a means to an end. I lost NOTHING when I left.

He is already seeing someone- I'm still moving some stuff out of the house and noticed her overnight bag in the bedroom and a dress in the closet.

This may be someone he was seeing before I left- or someone he quickly started love-bombing as soon as I told him I was planning to move out. These people cannot be alone. They MUST have a target, otherwise they have no one to go P-A on and feel like they don't even exist.

In a way it makes me feel a little better that someone else also fell for his line of utter bullsh!t. He is a good actor- in the beginning.


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## diwali123

I was a single parent from the day my daughter was born. He took everything in our relationship apart piece by piece until I was getting nothing from him. 
I told him that he contributed nothing but money and I didn't need to be married to him to get money from him. 

It surprised me how fast he moved into a new LTR when he was so "devastated" about the D. But you are right, people are just things to them, a means to end. 

I have to say I have had a great week with my husband. Yesterday we were in the store, and I turned around and he was gone. And for a very brief second I thought "what if he's not real? What if I just made him up?" because he is SO incredibly different from my ex that at times it feels surreal. 
There are good men out there.


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## deejov

diwali123 said:


> Do you think they are happiest when they are with someone who also is PA? Someone who also wants to be miserable?
> I don't know. My ex is now with a woman who was my good friend. I know that her tolerance for bad behavior is much higher than mine: and her need for intimacy and time together is much lower than mine. Maybe that's the key.


I have the opposite situation. I no longer tolerate bad attitude.

And my H's need for time and attention is enormous. He seems to need large amounts of non-sexual validation on a daily basis. Just nothing real, or deep. 

Yes, I do wonder if I am PA. Maybe a bit.


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## diwali123

deejov said:


> I have the opposite situation. I no longer tolerate bad attitude.
> 
> And my H's need for time and attention is enormous. He seems to need large amounts of non-sexual validation on a daily basis. Just nothing real, or deep.
> 
> Yes, I do wonder if I am PA. Maybe a bit.


It's hard not to be with them.


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## northernlights

Do any of your H's also avoid asking direct questions? Like, one day not long ago H comes up to me and says, "do you need me to go to the store?" This is a bizarre question for him to ask me, because he works from home and never does the shopping. NEVER. I do all of the grocery shopping, because I do all of the cooking. I knew immediately that he wanted to know what I was making for dinner, because there wasn't much in the fridge and he couldn't tell what I was planning to make. I just responded by telling him that no, I didn't need him to go to the store, but it bugged me. Can't he even ask me a direct question about something as simple as groceries? Why can't he say, "Hey there's not much food left in the house, when are you going shopping?" EVERYTHING has to be round-about and passive!


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## Openminded

My ex-husband had some similarities when it came to indirect questions. It was like he was afraid for some reason to ask a direct question. I am a very direct person and I would be mentally drumming my fingers waiting for him to eventually get to the point. I usually figured it out before he ever did.

I don't miss that.


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## pink_lady

deejov said:


> And my H's need for time and attention is enormous. He seems to need large amounts of non-sexual validation on a daily basis. Just nothing real, or deep.


Sounds like he may be a narcissist. The P-A behavior can go along with it. It sure does in my STBXH. I'd never seen anyone more of a misanthrope- but had also never seen anyone so desperate for constant, shallow attention from other humans.


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## bailingout

northernlights said:


> Do any of your H's also avoid asking direct questions? Like, one day not long ago H comes up to me and says, "do you need me to go to the store?" This is a bizarre question for him to ask me, because he works from home and never does the shopping. NEVER. I do all of the grocery shopping, because I do all of the cooking. I knew immediately that he wanted to know what I was making for dinner, because there wasn't much in the fridge and he couldn't tell what I was planning to make. I just responded by telling him that no, I didn't need him to go to the store, but it bugged me. Can't he even ask me a direct question about something as simple as groceries? Why can't he say, "Hey there's not much food left in the house, when are you going shopping?" EVERYTHING has to be round-about and passive!


Yep, just another part of the childish games they play. 

Our main one is H *asking* "What are your plans today?" or some version of it. Basically when he asks it means - I am insecure so I need to know where you will be all day and I am controlling so if I don't like what you're doing I will punish you later. If I cooperate and tell him, he leaves feeling secure and in control. 

I used to answer it by telling him what my plans were thinking it would evolve into a productive exchange of what each of us had going on so we could re-connect later in the day and do something. Never happened. If I answered it, he wouldn't say anything, but I suspect he was plotting his punishment for whatever offense I was committing.

If I ask him the same questions--his answer is always "I don't know yet". By refusing to give any specifics, he is projecting his insecurities and control issues onto me. He thinks I will feel insecure not knowing where he is and that he is maintaining control by not telling me where he will be...keep me guessing kinda thing. 

Either way, I ended up pissed off about it which is exactly what he wanted anyway.
1. If I answered, he wouldn't communicate his.
2. If I asked, his response was always "I don't know yet".

So, I simply stopped letting me effect me. If he asked me my plans, I responded with "I don't know yet" and I stopped asking him about his. If he didn't volunteer the info, I planned as if he didn't exist and would not allow myself to show any emotion or frustration later when we were both home. 

At first he thought he was winning the game, he thought he had finally put me in my place as I was no longer angry/frustrated/snippy about the lack of communication so he was winning by not giving me what I wanted- communication, but then he began to realize he was also being left out alot and I didn't seem to care about that either.

It is getting better, sometimes he volunteers his plans so I work around it so he can participate. I also tell him mine to help with his insecurity and control issues.


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## northernlights

Ugh, the plans question! Like I said, H works from home, and for a long time I was a SAHM (mostly. I did work from home some too, but H would never arrange his day to watch the kids and would bail on me at the last minute, so he made that really hard). Anyway, if the girls and I were bumming around the house, he'd ask me what my plans were and then start suggesting things for us to do. "Why don't you go to X. Why don't you call the Ys and see if you can go over there for a playdate."

At first, I patiently told him that his "suggestions" made me feel criticized, like he thought I wasn't doing enough with the kids (which is ridiculous, of course. I'm an over-achiever by nature, and the kids and I did a TON at home and out). My idea of marriage is that you build each other up, you know? So, if he knows I have this self-doubt problem, he could NOT do things to sabotage by self-confidence. And the thing about me and communication is, I don't do hidden expectations. So I told him all of this, how his question made me feel, and asked him to stop suggesting things for us unless I asked.

He never did. For a year or so I continued to remind him of how that made me feel. Then I just stopped responding to that question. He still does it btw, just much less often because the kids are both in school and I'm working.

Blech, I shouldn't have thought about that. Those feelings of confusion, hurt, and anger are too recent still.


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## diwali123

He probably wanted you out of the house so he could be alone.


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## pink_lady

For anyone who's left one of these losers, or needs inspiration, here's a cute song 

:Megan and Liz - Release You (Lyric Video) - YouTube


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## bailingout

northernlights said:


> Ugh, the plans question! Like I said, H works from home, and for a long time I was a SAHM (mostly. I did work from home some too, but H would never arrange his day to watch the kids and would bail on me at the last minute, so he made that really hard). Anyway, if the girls and I were bumming around the house, he'd ask me what my plans were and then start suggesting things for us to do. "Why don't you go to X. Why don't you call the Ys and see if you can go over there for a playdate."
> 
> At first, I patiently told him that his "suggestions" made me feel criticized, like he thought I wasn't doing enough with the kids (which is ridiculous, of course. I'm an over-achiever by nature, and the kids and I did a TON at home and out). My idea of marriage is that you build each other up, you know? So, if he knows I have this self-doubt problem, he could NOT do things to sabotage by self-confidence. And the thing about me and communication is, I don't do hidden expectations. So I told him all of this, how his question made me feel, and asked him to stop suggesting things for us unless I asked.
> 
> He never did. For a year or so I continued to remind him of how that made me feel. Then I just stopped responding to that question. He still does it btw, just much less often because the kids are both in school and I'm working.
> 
> Blech, I shouldn't have thought about that. Those feelings of confusion, hurt, and anger are too recent still.


I work at home, he is based from home but he has to go to different places for the actual work. I never knew if he would be home for the day or out on a job. A constant game. I would know what he had planned for the day based on how he got dressed after a shower. Work clothes=he's leaving for work. Non work clothes= he's staying home, but he wouldn't actually come out and tell me either way. 

If he was staying home, he'd hang at the house all day and never say anything, basically sit at the computer/watch tv and occasionally huff & puff or sigh as if he was waiting for me to ask him to do something with him (do something just the 2 of us like lunch) or for me to ask him to do something for me. On the rare occasion he would ask me if there was anything I needed help with or ask me to go to lunch, I would get annoyed because if I had known in advance that he would be home all day I would have planned accordingly or come up with a list of things he could have helped me with, run errands or whatever. He makes excuses of why he couldn't tell me sooner. I even asked him one day, "so you mean to tell me you get in your truck in the morning and while you're driving you figure out what you need to do that day?" he responded yes. WOW. 

It was useless. I got to the point that I didn't want to do anything with him alone and refused to rely on him for anything. I worked my whole life around D's school schedule. On the rare occasion I needed someone to pick her up, he would never commit 100% so I made other arrangements. Then he accused me of preventing him from spending quality time alone with her. Apparantly I was suppose to wait until the last minute to find out his plan and scramble when he bailed. Screw that. 

On my birthday one year, he asked me at 1130 am if I wanted to go to lunch for my bday. I said nope, my sister called 2 days ago and asked if she could take me out for lunch, so sorry, I already have plans. He used the excuse that he didn't know his schedule so couldn't plan in advance. He speaks as if he makes his schedule, but really he is a puppet and his clients make his schedule. 

At the moment, I don't have any work nor am I really trying to line any up until school starts so D and I just do whatever. He has been better at updating me to his plans (so he can be included at times) but now he's constantly moping cuz he is so busy working and thinks I have it so easy cuz I just hang with her all day. He doesn't see any value with being home with her for the summer. Oh well.

He waits for me to come up with everything, then sabotages it in some way or form. If he doesn't want to do what I suggest, he expects us to not do it either. But if there is something HE wants to do, we need to suck it up and do it anyway.

Now I tell him what we are doing, if he wants to join us, fine, if not, I go anyway. If he wants to do something I don't, I tell him to go ahead without me...he doesn't.


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## SaltInWound

bailingout said:


> he is a puppet


They all are. You can almost see the strings.



bailingout said:


> He waits for me to come up with everything, then *sabotages it* in some way or form.


They are kings of sabotage. Look at what they do to personal relationships. I find it amazing that for a person that depends on and surrounds themselves with others, they are lonely.


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## northernlights

We spent last year in H's home country, living near his elderly parents. If his mom called and said she needed help with anything, no matter how trivial, H was there within minutes. But for me and my career, there was always work and deadlines, no matter how much notice I gave him. I finally told him that I was really hurt to see that he did indeed have the flexibility he told me he didn't have, because now my career was neglected. He kind of apologized when I pushed and said yeah, he probably could have made an effort to give me the time to work, he just didn't. 

For anyone who has made it work with these guys, how did you manage the forgiveness? I know that if we're ever going to have anything resembling a real marriage, I'll have to forgive him for all of these things. I've tried. I understand that I let this behavior go on and didn't put up boundaries and consequences. But I always come back to the idea that he still chose to abuse our intimacy and take advantage of me. I feel like I thought we were a team, but as soon as I needed him to be my teammate, he stabbed me in the back. Maybe it's my scorpio nature, but it's hard enough to not demand revenge, much less forgive. Sigh...


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## bailingout

northernlights said:


> For anyone who has made it work with these guys, how did you manage the forgiveness? I know that if we're ever going to have anything resembling a real marriage, I'll have to forgive him for all of these things. I've tried. I understand that I let this behavior go on and didn't put up boundaries and consequences. But I always come back to the idea that he still chose to abuse our intimacy and take advantage of me. I feel like I thought we were a team, but as soon as I needed him to be my teammate, he stabbed me in the back. Maybe it's my scorpio nature, but it's hard enough to not demand revenge, much less forgive. Sigh...


I think we've all struggle with the forgiveness part. But they say the key to forgiving is to forgive for yourself, not for them. By that I think it means that you simply don't allow yourself to hold onto the resentment any longer and you start everyday with a clean slate with your boundaries and consequences in place to protect yourself from further harm. 

In our case I'm not convinced that these have been choices he has consciously made, but rather the aftermath caused by being raised in an unhealthy environment but not being able to recognize it himself. I know some won't agree, but I don't really believe he is that wicked on purpose so I guess that has made it easier for me to let some of it go. 

One thing that may be standing in your way was this from your quote : "But I always come back to the idea that he still chose to abuse our intimacy and take advantage of me." If you continue to allow yourself to think like this you won't be able to forgive as you're still viewing yourself as the victim. It is in your control to stop these thoughts. 

When I find myself starting to think that way, I find a way to distract myself enough to let the feeling pass and move onto something more positive. For example, I take a deep breath, look out the window and name 5 things I see that bring me some sort of peace. Pool, Fence, Trees, Umbrella, Fan. then repeat dropping the first one Fence, Trees, Umbrella, Fan, drop the next one Trees, Umbrella, Fan, drop the next one Umbrella, Fan...by time I'm done, the anxious/frustrated/hurt feeling I started to get when the thought entered my mind had passed and by repeating what I was seeing got my mind off my original thought. I know it's weird but it works. I read about it in a book, they said pick 3 things, that didn't cut it for me so I went to 5. I shared it with a friend and she came back and said it was very helpful for her also. When I started doing it, I did it at least 15 times a day, now I hardly do it at all cuz I rarely have those hurtful negative thoughts come to my mind.


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## AVR1962

Okay ladies, perhaps a break-thru, not getting my hopes too high. So Thurs (4th of July) I went out by myself, I just needed some time to think. When I got home I told husband that I thought I might go out of town for the weekend and he looked at me all surprised. Fri I got up and around and decided I was definitely going. We talked before I left and amazingly the talk was productive, it even shocked me. I think the time for us each away from each other to think was good for us both. I approached him and asked him if he had the time to talk. I asked him go back in memory to a couple incidents which I related to one another because his behavior was the same and I asked him what he saw. His response, "I was upset both times." I told him we are all are going to be upset with each other and there is no way to avoid it. I am going to get upset with him and vise versa, there is no such things as a perfect marriage. I told him that he need not take things so personally and that is what he does. I told him he gets offended over things that were never intended to offend him and that offense might be tiny but he gets upset, he holds it inside rather than expressing his upset and before long that little tiny seed has sprouted and it's growing and as it grows it starts spitting poison and that poison is his vindictive behavior towards me. I asked him if he could see this and he did. I asked him if he had any idea where this all come from which he did not so I told him to think about it a little harder as to when all his hurts started being blocked inside him because he could not express himself. He told me, "in my childhood." Then I asked, "who were you angry at in your childhood, who was stern and because of what you were told to do you held anger against that person." His answer, "my mom." I told him that I felt as a child he was not allowed to express his anger, he was not allowed to have a voice and that anger he had towards his mom is the very same anger he has towards me. I told him that in a different way I represent his mother. I let him know that it is okay to express himself and that I need to know what hurt him rather than holding on to the anger in silence because none of us can shove it down without it coming back up. He melted, like I have never seen. He told me he thought I was exactly right and then he started talking, talking about things in his childhood. WOW! I wasn't even expecting that. He told me that he has been reading a book on passive-aggressive behavior designed to help the PA, also a shocker. 

We'll see.


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## SaltInWound

AVR1962 said:


> He told me that he has been reading a book on passive-aggressive behavior designed to help the PA, also a shocker.


First of all, that is quite a breakthrough. I hope you both can make some progress. Curious though. Do you happen to know the name of the book he is reading?


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## diwali123

That is a break through. I wish you the best of luck!


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## northernlights

Yay! Fingers crossed for you!


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## VeggieMom

> passive-aggressive personality disorder,
> a DSM-IV psychiatric disorder characterized by the indirect expression of resistance to occupational or social demands. It results in persistent pervasive ineffectiveness, lack of self-confidence, poor interpersonal relationships, and pessimism that can lead in severe cases to major depression, alcoholism, or drug dependence. The behavior often reflects an unexpressed hostility or resentment stemming from a frustrating interpersonal or institutional relationship on which an individual is overly dependent. Treatment may consist of behavior therapy or any of the various psychotherapeutic procedures, depending on the individual and the severity of the condition.
> Mosby's Medical Dictionary, 8th edition. © 2009, Elsevier.
> Ads by Google
> Why Men Pull Away
> 10 Ugly Mistakes Women Make That Ruins Any Chances Of A Relationship
> CatchHimAndKeepHim.com


I don't think my H has a personality disorder. I think it's a learned behavior pattern based on what worked for him growing up and what has worked for him apparently until now because I won't put up with it anymore.


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## VeggieMom

*Re: you can make "khul"*



nishi_25 said:


> You can propose divorce because he is emotionally unfit for you, but u will not have your financial right of the divorce, and u must pay back the dowri he gave you, example, the ring. Then you should wait some years if u remarry. If you dont want to do this, you should stay with him, and have him seek help from friends or family. Have someone sit down with him and talk to him about how you are feeling, maybe if he hears it from someone close to him. Hope this helps


Haha! Never got a ring. We could not afford one at the time, so I bought a cheap one and he promised to get a good one later. Two years later, we had a formal wedding, and we were able to afford a good ring. His parents gave me a ring as a gift but just a gift, not a wedding ring persay. When I asked him when he would buy me the wedding ring he said, "Well my parents gave you one right?"


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## VeggieMom

diwali123 said:


> I don't know. Maybe he doesn't want to go through the trouble of a D?
> He doesn't think he will find someone else? Too lazy?



Yep. And the shame of having to tell people he failed at his marriage. Which doesn't fit in with the Mr. Wonderful personality he portrays outside of the home.


----------



## VeggieMom

Wiserforit said:


> She always walked just slightly ahead of me, even holding hands side-by-side. She made excuses about me being half an inch shorter, that I walked slow, etc. One day I started walking a little faster to come abreast of her. She speeded up. I walked faster still. She matched me. Faster. I started jogging. Running. I was looking at her laughing while she pretended not to understand what was going on, asking me what I was doing. She never admitted to this obsession.


I had the same experience! I think my H's was a cultural habit where men do that, but once I told him I didn't like it he should not have done it. He would walk just slightly faster than me and he has long legs and I am shorter than him and it was hard to keep up. Especially when I was in advanced pregnancy, it was really frustrating. Once we were at the mall and I just sat down on a bench and he walked for a long time before he realized I was not with him. I said I was done trying to keep up, I was tired and he could go shopping without me while I waited. He apologized and promised once again to walk slower but it didn't last the shopping visit.


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## VeggieMom

AVR1962 said:


> Random question here: I was thinking of asking my husband if he could imagine I was someone new and basically tell me what he feels happened in our marriage. If you were to ask your spouse the same could he/she answer that question? I think my husband would have a hard time.


I have asked him something similar and he was quite candid and surprised me by admitting his faults. They were of course faults that were so blatantly obvious that anyone would have seen they were wrong. He listed specific incidents like the disaster vacation mentioned in the first post, insisting on going back to work the day I got home from the hospital with my newborn, donating lots of money to a church while making me live without when I was a stay at home mom, and some other really hurtful things.

But, what he didn't see was the continuing pattern of small ways he does the same things. In arguments when I hold him accountable for whatever issue is at hand I will also tell him that it's not just about this issue, it's about the meaning behind the issue, how he keeps doing this same thing in different ways. He will get really defensive at this point, tell me I'm bringing up the past and will string out an overwhelming number of reasons why he did what he did in the current issue. It's like a filibuster. Finally I gets frustrated and walk away.

He's been a lot better the last couple of weeks. It has helped I think that I'm in a stretch of work days right now. Weekends are usually rough for our family because we are all home together. 

But today I woke up after my night shift last night and found that the children had not done any of their chores and stuff that they are expected to do every day-- and this is not a new discussion either. He won't make them do it and gives 1000 reasons why not on that particular day it was not done. I at first fell into my old pattern and told him I was disappointed that thei kids were still in their PJ's at 5 PM, no chores done, on his day off. He started to run off at the mouth with excuses and I felt my anger rising more. I stopped the conversation and said, "You know what? I am done. I'm sorry I engaged you in this conversation. Actions speak louder than words and the pattern has been that when I am not there to tell the kids to do their chores, they don't get done. I realize I can't count on you to be that kind of parent. I am no longer going to expect it of you. When I am not here or I'm sleeping, I guess I will just expect the kids to be in their PJ's all day and not have their chores done, and that's the way it's going to be."

He followed me out looking really surprised and since I kept walking towards the bathroom with my towel in hand, he went back to our room. He's now at the gym.

I just need to lower my expectations and bide my time. I realize how co-dependent I have been and how my happiness has been based on his actions or lack thereof. I am learning to let go, stand up taller, accept what is my reality right now, and find happiness in other ways. I am going to go exercise as soon as I get off this computer.  And I am possibly going to check out a new church tomorrow, and go back to work tomorrow night to the job I love.

(The kids felt guilty as soon as I woke up and asked why they were still in their PJ's and chores were not done. They got dressed immediately and started doing chores because they felt bad about it-- before I even went to H to talk to him- and said sorry for disappointing me. It's clear they respect me a lot more and that's a sad thing for H, too.)


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## VeggieMom

SaltInWound said:


> He doesn't want to correct it. He wants to keep you angry, because that is what makes him happy. I call it controlled chaos....the way he pretends to care and yet you can never get through to him. Why you are angry doesn't matter to him. All that matters is that you are. There is no logical thinking involved. Stop being concerned with WHY or getting him to understand. You will only frustrate yourself and he likes that too.


I agree with this and you need to stop being co-dependent and start finding your sense of self and happiness elsewhere.

It stinks that we have spouses like this, but that is how it is for now.


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## VeggieMom

deejov said:


> Here there is a small diff in my situation.
> I did truly find a way to be happy in life.
> 
> I have to think hard about it... has his behavior changed that much, or do I just not get angry about it as much? It's a bit of both.
> 
> He gets left alone a lot. I'm quite capable of making my own plans and going out and having fun. He's discovered he has to get ahead of that if he wants any time with me. And if he has a bad attitude... then together time is over. Calmly. I have choices. I got tired of being mad all the time. I redirect myself to more positive things.
> 
> We have found a way to be friends. I accept the way he is, I don't always choose to be around it.
> 
> But it doesn't change the fact that I get lonely. Even though we live together. Because it's not an intimate relationship. That's not his fault. It's mine. I can leave anytime.


very very well put!


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## VeggieMom

diwali123 said:


> I'm so sorry. I was molested too and I feel like its my duty to be honest about it with my partners, I don't get this mentality.


My H was also molested for years by someone the family trusted. He did not tell me until about 7 years into our marriage. I can understand because in his culture even regular sex was not talked about, and this was something that made him feel ashamed. He never even told his own parents. He is also a man and I think there is a stigma when boys are molested. I know it plays a huge part in the way he is. I have asked him how it thinks it affects him and he shrugs and says is has not affected him at all. But clearly it has affected him in bed and out of bed in his work, in his relationships and in his whole life.

That plus his already not so great upbringing. His mother who is very subtle but powerful, uses guilt and manipulation instead of outright just saying what she wants or needs. Is very stoic and not outwardly affectionate but very generous with cooking food and sending money (with a good heart- just not very good social skills). His father played more of a dependent role with his mom being in charge.

I was also abused physically and emotionally through most of my childhood. I told H about it early on in the relationship. It was used against me several times that I had issues and needed to get help vs. him growing in a "good" family with no divorce. 

I am the more functional one who finished college (twice), got a job that I love, raising good kids, and having good social skills. H is the typical PA but will never probably see how abuse and his early life affected his behavior patterns.


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## VeggieMom

northernlights said:


> Do any of your H's also avoid asking direct questions? Like, one day not long ago H comes up to me and says, "do you need me to go to the store?" This is a bizarre question for him to ask me, because he works from home and never does the shopping. NEVER. I do all of the grocery shopping, because I do all of the cooking. I knew immediately that he wanted to know what I was making for dinner, because there wasn't much in the fridge and he couldn't tell what I was planning to make. I just responded by telling him that no, I didn't need him to go to the store, but it bugged me. Can't he even ask me a direct question about something as simple as groceries? Why can't he say, "Hey there's not much food left in the house, when are you going shopping?" EVERYTHING has to be round-about and passive!


I can very much relate to this. It's assumed that he cooks on his days off. It's something we've always done. So we get to 5:30 and I notice he has not made dinner. The kids were starting to scrounge for junk food and I asked him if he had planned on making dinner that night. He said, "I was hoping you would do it just this once. I have been involved in this project all day." 

Why didn't he ask me earlier, "Hey can you make dinner tonight? I'm involved in this project and can't do it?" Rather he waits until it's obvious we all are waiting for dinner to tell us he is not planning to do it. I ended up taking the kids out to eat and he protested about money spent. I told him next time, if you don't want to cook on your day off, give me enough notice. The kids are hungry right now and so am I.

He says, "I was hoping you would . . " a lot. I said stop hoping and start communicating.


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## VeggieMom

bailingout said:


> Yep, just another part of the childish games they play.
> 
> Our main one is H *asking* "What are your plans today?" or some version of it. Basically when he asks it means - I am insecure so I need to know where you will be all day and I am controlling so if I don't like what you're doing I will punish you later. If I cooperate and tell him, he leaves feeling secure and in control.


I have the opposite problem. He never asks me my plans but when I ask his, he will give me this HUGE list of plans in no particular order. The reason I ask is so we can coordinate our day or if he plans to go to the store I can give him a list (I neer learn that one!). And then when I think I know what he is going to do that day and I plan my day around his plans, he changes it on me. Especially if it's something that I am counting on him doing, for example getting my hopes up that he may actually fix the broken toilet or whatever.

I also don't ask anymore what his plans are and I don't share my plans unless it is absolutely necessary for the coordination f child care. Example I tell him when I have to work that night, and two nights ago I was going to take one child to a volunteer event but the other child was too young to go. I did not ask him about it. I told him, "I am taking ABC to the volunteer event, and I need you to watch DEF for me."


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## VeggieMom

northernlights said:


> We spent last year in H's home country, living near his elderly parents. If his mom called and said she needed help with anything, no matter how trivial, H was there within minutes. But for me and my career, there was always work and deadlines, no matter how much notice I gave him. I finally told him that I was really hurt to see that he did indeed have the flexibility he told me he didn't have, because now my career was neglected. He kind of apologized when I pushed and said yeah, he probably could have made an effort to give me the time to work, he just didn't.
> 
> For anyone who has made it work with these guys, how did you manage the forgiveness? I know that if we're ever going to have anything resembling a real marriage, I'll have to forgive him for all of these things. I've tried. I understand that I let this behavior go on and didn't put up boundaries and consequences. But I always come back to the idea that he still chose to abuse our intimacy and take advantage of me. I feel like I thought we were a team, but as soon as I needed him to be my teammate, he stabbed me in the back. Maybe it's my scorpio nature, but it's hard enough to not demand revenge, much less forgive. Sigh...


With the Very Serious Talk I had with him recently, I told him I cannot forgive when those same behaviors are still going on today. Forgiveness usually means they are sorry, and that thing is not done again. The person feels sincerely bad about what they did and they show you through actions that they are trying not to do that thing again.

There is a good book called How Can I Forgive You? There are chapters on different situations where people wrong you and the types of forgiveness you can give or not give. For me, I choose to accept him the way he is. I don't like all of it, but I accept that he will not change and I need to live with that and find my own peace--or leave. It is a kind of forgiveness. 

If a person is not sorry for what they do, you don't have to forgive them in that unconditional way that the book often calls "cheap forgiveness." He accuses me of bringing up the past and I told him the past is the present, these things are still happening. He may never do that specific thing again, but the pattern of behavior manifests in other ways.


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## VeggieMom

I think I am caught up now!!


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## diwali123

VeggieMom said:


> Yep. And the shame of having to tell people he failed at his marriage. Which doesn't fit in with the Mr. Wonderful personality he portrays outside of the home.


Yes. This is why I think my ex didn't want a D.


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## diwali123

I just wanted to say with my ex, I couldn't wait for him to be gone for the night. I couldn't wait for him to go to bed at night if I was staying up late. 

My h now is gone over night and while I like having time to myself I just miss him.


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## Sabbby

My PA man had to go after 5 years because we had no children and were not married. The lonliness, lack of love, effection and someone to confide in and all the arguing for nothing had to stop. However, if I were in your shoes I would treat him as if he doesnt exist. That is the only way to avoid frustration because any type of attempt on your part is gonna trigger his attacks. But dont get mad when he could still care less and appear to enjoy being shut out and left alone. PA men are madening and Im glad to be done with it.. Good luck to all that are still coping


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## AVR1962

VeggieMom said:


> With the Very Serious Talk I had with him recently, I told him I cannot forgive when those same behaviors are still going on today. Forgiveness usually means they are sorry, and that thing is not done again. The person feels sincerely bad about what they did and they show you through actions that they are trying not to do that thing again.
> 
> There is a good book called How Can I Forgive You? There are chapters on different situations where people wrong you and the types of forgiveness you can give or not give. For me, I choose to accept him the way he is. I don't like all of it, but I accept that he will not change and I need to live with that and find my own peace--or leave. It is a kind of forgiveness.
> 
> If a person is not sorry for what they do, you don't have to forgive them in that unconditional way that the book often calls "cheap forgiveness." He accuses me of bringing up the past and I told him the past is the present, these things are still happening. He may never do that specific thing again, but the pattern of behavior manifests in other ways.


I can identify with everything you have said here. Husband and I have been thru the exact same with nearly the exact same words and sentiment. I too read a book on forgiveness. What is hard is never feeling any real sense of remorse from these people, trying to forgive them for the hurts you have endured only for the actions to continue after being told they were sorry. How sorry can a person be if they continue the same actions?


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## AVR1962

Sabbby said:


> My PA man had to go after 5 years because we had no children and were not married. The lonliness, lack of love, effection and someone to confide in and all the arguing for nothing had to stop. However, if I were in your shoes I would treat him as if he doesnt exist. That is the only way to avoid frustration because any type of attempt on your part is gonna trigger his attacks. But dont get mad when he could still care less and appear to enjoy being shut out and left alone. PA men are madening and Im glad to be done with it.. Good luck to all that are still coping


Good for you. Reading thru these posts is just a warning sign of the future if you are to stay. I wish you all the best!


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## AVR1962

SaltInWound said:


> First of all, that is quite a breakthrough. I hope you both can make some progress. Curious though. Do you happen to know the name of the book he is reading?


The name of the book is "Overcoming Passive Aggression."


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## deejov

bailingout said:


> Yep, just another part of the childish games they play.
> 
> Our main one is H *asking* "What are your plans today?" or some version of it. Basically when he asks it means - I am insecure so I need to know where you will be all day and I am controlling so if I don't like what you're doing I will punish you later. If I cooperate and tell him, he leaves feeling secure and in control.
> 
> I used to answer it by telling him what my plans were thinking it would evolve into a productive exchange of what each of us had going on so we could re-connect later in the day and do something. Never happened. If I answered it, he wouldn't say anything, but I suspect he was plotting his punishment for whatever offense I was committing.
> 
> If I ask him the same questions--his answer is always "I don't know yet". By refusing to give any specifics, he is projecting his insecurities and control issues onto me. He thinks I will feel insecure not knowing where he is and that he is maintaining control by not telling me where he will be...keep me guessing kinda thing.
> 
> Either way, I ended up pissed off about it which is exactly what he wanted anyway.
> 1. If I answered, he wouldn't communicate his.
> 2. If I asked, his response was always "I don't know yet".
> 
> So, I simply stopped letting me effect me. If he asked me my plans, I responded with "I don't know yet" and I stopped asking him about his. If he didn't volunteer the info, I planned as if he didn't exist and would not allow myself to show any emotion or frustration later when we were both home.
> 
> At first he thought he was winning the game, he thought he had finally put me in my place as I was no longer angry/frustrated/snippy about the lack of communication so he was winning by not giving me what I wanted- communication, but then he began to realize he was also being left out alot and I didn't seem to care about that either.
> 
> It is getting better, sometimes he volunteers his plans so I work around it so he can participate. I also tell him mine to help with his insecurity and control issues.


I can honestly say we had this issue, big time. We used to argue about the word "plans". And it has stopped. Completely.

If he doesn't ask me directly what he wants, I don't engage.


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## deejov

AVR1962 said:


> I can identify with everything you have said here. Husband and I have been thru the exact same with nearly the exact same words and sentiment. I too read a book on forgiveness. What is hard is never feeling any real sense of remorse from these people, trying to forgive them for the hurts you have endured only for the actions to continue after being told they were sorry. How sorry can a person be if they continue the same actions?


Being sorry and expecting them to change is something you are owning.

Boundaries and consequences, and you just don't accept their actions. Whether they change or not... you can. 

Empathy is a lost cause. Forgiving past actions should be aligned with your boundaries to not allow the behavior to continue in the future, or you don't allow yourself to take it personally. I hope that makes sense.


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## Sabbby

A important issue someone brought up was forgiveness. I spent years forgiving him and making excuses for him because it was "HIS WAY". It suddenly dawned on me that he didnt want forgiveness because he would never apologize and when confronted would make excuses for his actions ( usually insulting ridiculous excuses ). At that point is when I stopped forgiving him and would not talk to him until he apologized. It took 5 weeks and 3 requests the last time he yelled at me for no reason. Remaining angry with him for extended periods of time helped me grow apart from him. It wasnt long after I stopped forgiving him that I realized it was time to move on. He didnt deserve me and I didnt deserve the pain. It hasnt been easy, I do miss him because Im now alone, but I have my self respect and dignity back.


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## janefw

Someone mentioned 'punishment' (Veggie mom I think). Do y'all find that p/a's are 'punishers'. I am not talking physical abuse here, I am talking the sulks, the turning of the back, the refusing of sex, the 'headaches' (or multiple other 'aches' that prevent the p/a from doing what you need him or her to do)?


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## SaltInWound

janefw said:


> Someone mentioned 'punishment' (Veggie mom I think). Do y'all find that p/a's are 'punishers'. I am not talking physical abuse here, I am talking the sulks, the turning of the back, the refusing of sex, the 'headaches' (or multiple other 'aches' that prevent the p/a from doing what you need him or her to do)?


I absolutely do believe they intend to punish. It is how they gain control.


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## diwali123

janefw said:


> Someone mentioned 'punishment' (Veggie mom I think). Do y'all find that p/a's are 'punishers'. I am not talking physical abuse here, I am talking the sulks, the turning of the back, the refusing of sex, the 'headaches' (or multiple other 'aches' that prevent the p/a from doing what you need him or her to do)?


Yes that definitely was the case with my ex. I just can't believe how long I stayed.


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## Sabbby

janefw said:


> Someone mentioned 'punishment' (Veggie mom I think). Do y'all find that p/a's are 'punishers'. I am not talking physical abuse here, I am talking the sulks, the turning of the back, the refusing of sex, the 'headaches' (or multiple other 'aches' that prevent the p/a from doing what you need him or her to do)?



Im not sure it is actually punishment. I think they just don't want the same things we want. It is punishment for them to conform to what we feel is normal. When he wanted sex he took it and when I wanted it I took it. He never turned me down, but I was so unhappy I rarely initiated it, I just waited on him. The relationship is so dysfunctional with a PA to us, but not to them. My ex didn't see anything wrong with his behavior, which again is why I had to get out. I want LOVE and I don't think a PA man can provide it in a way the average woman needs. And yes the sulking, long stints of depression, sleeping on the edge of the bed as if he didn't want to be touched. He used to rub my feet when we met I have a lot of pain in my right foot. He started using rubber globes then refused all together...claiming "HE DONT DO FEET"...


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## VeggieMom

My H absolutely means to do it! I have seen him drag his feet when the rest of us are in the car waiting for him running late for something. He will let dishes stack up. He will be too busy to clean the bathroom on his agreed upon week or too busy to repair something, etc. 

The towel example in my first post is a clear example. Once in awhile he might have used my towel out of absentmindedness, but when he has to reach across the bathroom to get it when his is right next to the shower, then it's punishment. And it used to happen 90% of the time. And I also noticed that all of these things happened in a cluster when he was upset at me. And when he was not upset at me he would be extremely helpful and responsible and efficient.

I never brought up the punishment thing to him-- I would just complain about whatever he was doing. If I got fed up about it and drew a boundary-- example stack up the 3 days of nasty, dried on food dirty dishes he left me in the sink and put them in a plastic tote and refuse to wash them (PA turned me into a crazy lunatic) he would say, "You are doing this to punish me aren't you?" And I would say, no I'm doing it because I'm frustrated and these are not my dishes, and I can't cook dinner until they are out of my way. I work nights and sleep days for a cluster of three days so during that time I don't expect the house to be perfect but I do (and have for years) expect that dishes are at least rinsed and stacked. And he knows this.


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## Sabbby

VeggieMom said:


> My H absolutely means to do it! I have seen him drag his feet when the rest of us are in the car waiting for him running late for something. He will let dishes stack up. He will be too busy to clean the bathroom on his agreed upon week or too busy to repair something, etc.
> 
> The towel example in my first post is a clear example. Once in awhile he might have used my towel out of absentmindedness, but when he has to reach across the bathroom to get it when his is right next to the shower, then it's punishment. And it used to happen 90% of the time. And I also noticed that all of these things happened in a cluster when he was upset at me. And when he was not upset at me he would be extremely helpful and responsible and efficient.
> 
> I never brought up the punishment thing to him-- I would just complain about whatever he was doing. If I got fed up about it and drew a boundary-- example stack up the 3 days of nasty, dried on food dirty dishes he left me in the sink and put them in a plastic tote and refuse to wash them (PA turned me into a crazy lunatic) he would say, "You are doing this to punish me aren't you?" And I would say, no I'm doing it because I'm frustrated and these are not my dishes, and I can't cook dinner until they are out of my way. I work nights and sleep days for a cluster of three days so during that time I don't expect the house to be perfect but I do (and have for years) expect that dishes are at least rinsed and stacked. And he knows this.


It is funny you used the family waiting in the car scenario because that happened to me. This day I told everybody what time we were leaving to go paintballing and when we got loaded in the van he took a shower and he was the driver. I started to leave him, but I always have to be the better person. Every vacation he acted like he was forced to go and would rather be some place else. But my point is I dont believe it is punishment. YES they know what they are doing, but they don't think it is anything wrong with it. They are on their own time and that is usually opposite of everyone else. Believe me I know what you are saying and how you feel, but years of experience has taught me that Passive Aggressive people are not that way because they just want to be, they can't help it.

Does your PA man have trouble making eye contact and when he does, he looks like there is a scared child inside of him that he doesn't want you to see? No communication or very little. I have followed behind my PA man asking him repeatedly to repeat himself because I couldnt hear him. He would talk at me not to me as he was walking away, refusing to turn his head and look at me when he was talking to me. OMG I sure hope he isn't this way on purpose. He has to be miserable with himself being that crazy on purpose.


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## VeggieMom

Sabbby said:


> It is funny you used the family waiting in the car scenario because that happened to me. This day I told everybody what time we were leaving to go paintballing and when we got loaded in the van he took a shower and he was the driver. I started to leave him, but I always have to be the better person. Every vacation he acted like he was forced to go and would rather be some place else. But my point is I dont believe it is punishment. YES they know what they are doing, but they don't think it is anything wrong with it. They are on their own time and that is usually opposite of everyone else. Believe me I know what you are saying and how you feel, but years of experience has taught me that Passive Aggressive people are not that way because they just want to be, they can't help it.
> 
> Does your PA man have trouble making eye contact and when he does, he looks like there is a scared child inside of him that he doesn't want you to see? No communication or very little. I have followed behind my PA man asking him repeatedly to repeat himself because I couldnt hear him. He would talk at me not to me as he was walking away, refusing to turn his head and look at me when he was talking to me. OMG I sure hope he isn't this way on purpose. He has to be miserable with himself being that crazy on purpose.


I have started leaving without him the past couple of years. I tell everyone what time we need to leave and if everyone is not in the car we leave without them. I left a kid behind once too (she was old enough to be left alone) and has never made that mistake again. H will sometimes have to drive himself and then he has to make an excuse to the people we were going to meet why he was late. 

As far as eye contact, a lot of it is cultural in my H's case. However he has learned in the business world and with the neighbors and others that Americans value good eye contact. He was averting his eyes with me but after our Very Big Talk recently he has been doing a lot better. I am still waiting to see if the Talk stuck or not. Actions are the only thing I value at this point.


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## Sabbby

Exactly, he does look at others. It is me that he can't seem to make eye contact. I think it is low self esteem. My PA man has no job and didn't want to work unless it was a odd job that satisfied a need for that moment (new holicopter or Xbox controller) Otherwise he was a houses husband. I don't think he felt to good about himself, but on the other hand didn't want to do anything about whatever it was that bothered him. And I think he felt less of a man because he moved in with me and couldnt be as trifling as he wanted to be living in my house. I was the bread winner and always in control, whereas if you asked him to make any decisions he would say "it's whatever"...

I think you have it better than I did, because I couldnt have a conversation with him. He never responded, just sat there. I would hope that he heard me and would make changes, but of course the changes, if any where temporary.


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## diwali123

I never thought about it but my ex hardly ever looked me in the eyes. I guess it's easier to lie that way.


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## Sabbby

diwali123 said:


> I never thought about it but my ex hardly ever looked me in the eyes. I guess it's easier to lie that way.


I know a child that closes his eyes thinking because he can't see me, that that meant I couldnt see him. The same for a PA man, they think because they don't make eye contact, that we can't see through the BS, self doubt and insecurities...and yes the lies!


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## SaltInWound

Good observation Sabby. It really does go back to that childish mentality and behavior.

The eye contact thing!
I did not notice until after my stbxh and I no longer lived together that I don't make eye contact with men. I thought about it and pinpointed that early in our marriage, 20 years ago, he repeatedly made fun of me when I would try to make eye contact with him. Eventually he made me so self conscious of it that I stopped looking at him. Thinking back, he is the only man I have ever had a relationship with who made this comment about my eyes. Now, I realize he did it to make himself feel better. amazing how much control they have over us and we don't even know it as it is happening. I still have difficulty making eye contact with men.


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## northernlights

Mine does the no eye contact with me too. And mumbling, or letting his sentences trail off, or talking to me when I'm in another room but not raising his voice so I can hear him. I don't have trouble understanding other people, so I know it's not my hearing.

I've been focusing for a few months on not thinking so much about my H, or what's "wrong" with him, or how unhappy I am with the relationship. I don't want to give that negativity any of my head space. The plus is, the things he does don't bother me nearly as much. The minus is, I'm feeling more disconnected from him than ever. I truly don't understand what I ever saw in him, and can't even imagine staying married after the kids are grown. At this point, I'm not sure I'm going to last 2 years, much less 10. Ugh, still praying for a miracle though.


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## Sabbby

SaltInWound said:


> Good observation Sabby. It really does go back to that childish mentality and behavior.
> 
> The eye contact thing!
> I did not notice until after my stbxh and I no longer lived together that I don't make eye contact with men. I thought about it and pinpointed that early in our marriage, 20 years ago, he repeatedly made fun of me when I would try to make eye contact with him. Eventually he made me so self conscious of it that I stopped looking at him. Thinking back, he is the only man I have ever had a relationship with who made this comment about my eyes. Now, I realize he did it to make himself feel better. amazing how much control they have over us and we don't even know it as it is happening. I still have difficulty making eye contact with men
> 
> With practise that can be fixed. Men like him break women down so they think they have to stay because nobody else will want them.


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## minimalME

northernlights said:


> And mumbling, or letting his sentences trail off, or talking to me when I'm in another room but not raising his voice so I can hear him. I don't have trouble understanding other people, so I know it's not my hearing.


The last two years of my marriage, I didn't hear probably about 75% of what my then husband said. 

At first I would ask him to repeat himself, but it got ridiculous, so I just stopped asking.

And I did go in for a hearing test.


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## Sabbby

northernlights said:


> Mine does the no eye contact with me too. And mumbling, or letting his sentences trail off, or talking to me when I'm in another room but not raising his voice so I can hear him. I don't have trouble understanding other people, so I know it's not my hearing.
> 
> I've been focusing for a few months on not thinking so much about my H, or what's "wrong" with him, or how unhappy I am with the relationship. I don't want to give that negativity any of my head space. The plus is, the things he does don't bother me nearly as much. The minus is, I'm feeling more disconnected from him than ever. I truly don't understand what I ever saw in him, and can't even imagine staying married after the kids are grown. At this point, I'm not sure I'm going to last 2 years, much less 10. Ugh, still praying for a miracle though.


If I didnt know any better I'd say we were talking about the same person. The communication or lack of can make you scream. I did the same thing you are doing and that is exactly how the breakup began. I completely checked out of the relationship mentally and 1 day at a family function I watched him. He was courteous, helpful, friendly, funny and accomodating to everyone but me. I sat on the sofa and put my legs on his lap, he got up with his hands in the air as if he didnt want to touch me and let my legs fall. I left him right there that night and havent seen or heard from him since. My heart couldnt take the public disrespect anymore. Took all his things to his parents the next morning.


----------



## Sabbby

minimalME said:


> The last two years of my marriage, I didn't hear probably about 75% of what my then husband said.
> 
> At first I would ask him to repeat himself, but it got ridiculous, so I just stopped asking.
> 
> And I did go in for a hearing test.


It really isn't funny, but why can't I stop laughing. People really act like this and we put up with it. I used to use the excuse that I never met a nut before so I didn't know what I was dealing with. I want to know how you get like this, cause it is starting to sound like a disease you catch, cause they all have the same symptoms...


----------



## DaytoDay

FYI, I'm reading a book called "Women Who Love Too Much." It's very informative, and it has a ton of examples of women in bad R's and how it all came about. Of course, it all has to do with their upbringing, but it's really curious to see how it plays out and why.


----------



## janefw

northernlights said:


> Mine does the no eye contact with me too. And mumbling, or letting his sentences trail off, or talking to me when I'm in another room but not raising his voice so I can hear him. I don't have trouble understanding other people, so I know it's not my hearing.


Ha. My husband is hearing disabled and he will call me when I am upstairs, in the bedroom, and he knows I am studying at the computer, and because I know he can't hear my response, I have to get up and go to wherever he is to answer his question. That pi$$es me off to a degree I cannot express. I have started this past year to refuse to go. I pretend I can't hear him which compels him to come and ask me his question. More often than not, he is sitting on his a$$ in front of the tv while I am actually working. He often uses his disability to his great advantage. Even more annoyingly, I will tell him things - often things he doesn't want to hear - and a few days later he will claim to have never heard it, and blame it on his hearing disability, even though I have told him right to his face, and he has nodded agreement. I absolutely hate when he does that, because again, it is "using" his disability and there's no need for that. Let me say, I have moved heaven and earth to help him and be his 'ears' so to have that abused is really pitiful.


----------



## Sabbby

janefw said:


> Ha. My husband is hearing disabled and he will call me when I am upstairs, in the bedroom, and he knows I am studying at the computer, and because I know he can't hear my response, I have to get up and go to wherever he is to answer his question. That pi$$es me off to a degree I cannot express. I have started this past year to refuse to go. I pretend I can't hear him which compels him to come and ask me his question. More often than not, he is sitting on his a$$ in front of the tv while I am actually working. He often uses his disability to his great advantage. Even more annoyingly, I will tell him things - often things he doesn't want to hear - and a few days later he will claim to have never heard it, and blame it on his hearing disability, even though I have told him right to his face, and he has nodded agreement. I absolutely hate when he does that, because again, it is "using" his disability and there's no need for that. Let me say, I have moved heaven and earth to help him and be his 'ears' so to have that abused is really pitiful.


Mine had a disability "employment impaired" If I didn't work I would be the nicest, loving companion ever. It's hard not to be just as childish as them, but somebody gotta be an adult in the relationship. Most men are just lazy and we get in the way of that wanting to compromise, nothing big, just love and a little help around the house. I probably would have done anything for some adult conversation. I never understood how important having some one to talk to was to me until I met my PA. 

Soon I will be ready to date again and its funny how this situation has changed me. I don't care about any of the things I used to. Money, status, car, looks. I just want someone to love and talk to me that I can stand to look at.


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## diwali123

Sabby don't sell yourself short. Don't make the mistake of taking the first normal guy who comes along. 
I ended up falling head over heels for two male friends just because we had real conversations. 
It had been so long since a man had listened to me, it was like an amazing experience to have a man actually listen and process and say something intelligent and caring to me.


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## Sabbby

I will keep that in mind. Thanks Diwali123


----------



## diwali123

janefw said:


> Ha. My husband is hearing disabled and he will call me when I am upstairs, in the bedroom, and he knows I am studying at the computer, and because I know he can't hear my response, I have to get up and go to wherever he is to answer his question. That pi$$es me off to a degree I cannot express. I have started this past year to refuse to go. I pretend I can't hear him which compels him to come and ask me his question. More often than not, he is sitting on his a$$ in front of the tv while I am actually working. He often uses his disability to his great advantage. Even more annoyingly, I will tell him things - often things he doesn't want to hear - and a few days later he will claim to have never heard it, and blame it on his hearing disability, even though I have told him right to his face, and he has nodded agreement. I absolutely hate when he does that, because again, it is "using" his disability and there's no need for that. Let me say, I have moved heaven and earth to help him and be his 'ears' so to have that abused is really pitiful.


That is terrible. 

I was just going to ask if anyone else had the experience of having them agree with something and then later on insisting that the conversation never happened? 

We had many instances of that. To the point where I started doubting his grasp on reality. I don't know if he is delusional or brain damage or is gas lighting. It was the most bizarre thing,


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## Sabbby

Yes that is one of the characteristics of a Passive Aggressive Person. The only reality they recognize is whatever makes them right. They are never wrong.


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## Sabbby

SlowCreek.NoPaddle said:


> FYI, I'm reading a book called "Women Who Love Too Much." It's very informative, and it has a ton of examples of women in bad R's and how it all came about. Of course, it all has to do with their upbringing, but it's really curious to see how it plays out and why.


Im buying this book today. I have read pieces of it on amazon and I think I found my problem. After I read I will repost. I am afraid that I have been attracted to these types of men, unknowingly.


----------



## SaltInWound

Sabbby said:


> Yes that is one of the characteristics of a Passive Aggressive Person. The only reality they recognize is whatever makes them right. They are never wrong.


Deny, deny, deny. I got so tired of denial about his gambling I made him sign a detailed confession.


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## Sabbby

Some of us have really been dealt a bad hand in life when it comes to men. I think it is best not to try to change them and go into self preservation mode.


----------



## northernlights

diwali123 said:


> I was just going to ask if anyone else had the experience of having them agree with something and then later on insisting that the conversation never happened?
> 
> We had many instances of that. To the point where I started doubting his grasp on reality. I don't know if he is delusional or brain damage or is gas lighting. It was the most bizarre thing,


My H will do this _immediately _after having said it. I did feel like I was crazy for a while, because I was also severely sleep deprived. 

I could totally see, if I did ever date again, falling for the first intelligent guy who really listened to me that came along. About a year and a half ago, I had a small lump in my left breast, which I thought would be prudent to ignore. I did tell my H about it, but he didn't have anything beyond "huh" to say. Well, a few months later, I was shaving my bikini line and I noticed that the lymph nodes on the left side of my groin were swollen. Too swollen to comfortably shave that side. Again, H thought that warranted a "hmm." I told my mom and she pushed me to go to the dr, which I obviously needed but was too scared to do. The lump in my breast was just a fatty cyst, but the lymph nodes were a mystery so the dr wanted to run some bloodwork, just to check a few things out. When I got home and told H, he said something along the lines of "that's good about the lump, I knew it was nothing," and "how much will the lab work cost? You're not going to do it, are you?" 

If it wasn't for the kids, I would have left him then. We have plenty of money (but crappy health insurance), but even 2k in bloodwork would be nothing to us. I have never felt so not cared for. (The lymph nodes mystery was never solved, but I don't have cancer or an infection, and they're not growing, so it's just one of those things I guess).


----------



## diwali123

Sounds about like my ex. 
I just don't get how there are so many people like this in the world.


----------



## northernlights

Oh my gosh, I just read the first few pages of Women Who Love Too Much on Amazon. Wow, I need to buy that!


----------



## Wonderinginnc

diwali123 said:


> That is terrible.
> 
> I was just going to ask if anyone else had the experience of having them agree with something and then later on insisting that the conversation never happened?
> 
> We had many instances of that. To the point where I started doubting his grasp on reality. I don't know if he is delusional or brain damage or is gas lighting. It was the most bizarre thing,


I've had this happen too many times to count. Many years ago, we were having difficulty conceiving a child after our first child. I had to go for X-rays or sonogram where they inject dye into your uterus and fallopian tubes to find blockages. It's fairly uncomfortable, and my Dr. recommended someone drive me. I asked husband to do so, he agreed and then was nowhere to be found at appointment time. After I got back from the appointment (having to call my mother at the last minute), he acted like the conversation never occurred. He was supposed to take in a sperm specimen which we discussed, even gave him the little cup to take it in. He still hadn't gone after about a week, so I asked him and he swore I told him he didn't have to do it??

I took a few days to go visit our daughter leaving him behind as he had some civic club responsibilities. It was the most relaxing trip ever. I asked him before I left to do two things: Make sure the cat got his last 4 doses of medicine, and take out the recycling can as it was overflowing. I came back to hear that he took the can to the curb, but got there too late (we've also had discussions about the fact that he could actually take the can out the night before). As to the cat medicine, 1 of the 4 doses was given over the last 5 days. I guess he showed me, huh?


----------



## Sabbby

northernlights said:


> My H will do this _immediately _after having said it. I did feel like I was crazy for a while, because I was also severely sleep deprived.
> 
> I could totally see, if I did ever date again, falling for the first intelligent guy who really listened to me that came along. About a year and a half ago, I had a small lump in my left breast, which I thought would be prudent to ignore. I did tell my H about it, but he didn't have anything beyond "huh" to say. Well, a few months later, I was shaving my bikini line and I noticed that the lymph nodes on the left side of my groin were swollen. Too swollen to comfortably shave that side. Again, H thought that warranted a "hmm." I told my mom and she pushed me to go to the dr, which I obviously needed but was too scared to do. The lump in my breast was just a fatty cyst, but the lymph nodes were a mystery so the dr wanted to run some bloodwork, just to check a few things out. When I got home and told H, he said something along the lines of "that's good about the lump, I knew it was nothing," and "how much will the lab work cost? You're not going to do it, are you?"
> 
> If it wasn't for the kids, I would have left him then. We have plenty of money (but crappy health insurance), but even 2k in bloodwork would be nothing to us. I have never felt so not cared for. (The lymph nodes mystery was never solved, but I don't have cancer or an infection, and they're not growing, so it's just one of those things I guess).


No apathy, thats another traid they all share. My PA left wood with rusty nails in the basement floor and I stepped on it carrying laundry. I yelled and he act as if nothing happened. When I told him what happened and asked him if I needed to go to the doctors for tetanus shot, he looked at me as if WTF am I asking him for. And immediately looked at my feet to see if I had on shoes so he could blame me, but I had on boots so he just walked away with attitude as if he stepped on the nails I left in the floor. 

Did you leave him yet, RUN SAVE YOURSELF


----------



## Sabbby

Wonderinginnc said:


> I've had this happen too many times to count. Many years ago, we were having difficulty conceiving a child after our first child. I had to go for X-rays or sonogram where they inject dye into your uterus and fallopian tubes to find blockages. It's fairly uncomfortable, and my Dr. recommended someone drive me. I asked husband to do so, he agreed and then was nowhere to be found at appointment time. After I got back from the appointment (having to call my mother at the last minute), he acted like the conversation never occurred. He was supposed to take in a sperm specimen which we discussed, even gave him the little cup to take it in. He still hadn't gone after about a week, so I asked him and he swore I told him he didn't have to do it??
> 
> I took a few days to go visit our daughter leaving him behind as he had some civic club responsibilities. It was the most relaxing trip ever. I asked him before I left to do two things: Make sure the cat got his last 4 doses of medicine, and take out the recycling can as it was overflowing. I came back to hear that he took the can to the curb, but got there too late (we've also had discussions about the fact that he could actually take the can out the night before). As to the cat medicine, 1 of the 4 doses was given over the last 5 days. I guess he showed me, huh?


Sounds like every man I have ever known. They need their mommy, not a wife. Did you ever conceive?


----------



## Hortensia

VeggieMom said:


> I come here looking for advice and support. I am in a place where I feel stuck and I just need to learn to endure and find joy in a difficult situation. I am interested in hearing from others who have made this choice and what they do to make their home life and personal life as happy as possible in spite of living with a very difficult spouse.
> 
> We have been married for 15+ years. It started out very nice of course, but within weeks I saw warning signs of what I now know is passive aggressive behavior. My husband was sexually abused as a child by a friend of the family. He lived in a family and culture where emotions were not encouraged to be expressed, obedience and respect to parents was the law, and everyone is supposed to just pretend all is well no matter what. He never told his parents about the abuse.
> 
> My husband is at heart a good person. He has been 100% faithful to me, remained employed, our children know he loves them very much, he his honest and never had problems with substance abuse, gambling, etc. He is charming and everyone thinks he's so nice and I'm so lucky to have him as my spouse. He has a hard time saying no to others, again part of how he was raised.
> 
> Some of the warning signs that I saw in the beginning was the cold shoulder, disrespecting my requests and then when I told him I felt sad about it, he blew me off with "lighten up" or "what's the big deal?" Promises that were forgotten, putting up roadblocks, flipping the blame when I tried to talk to him about something, and other maddening things. I first thought there was something wrong with me. He would make me so mad and frustrated I would blow up and then he would tell me I had an anger problem, didn't need to shout, etc.
> 
> Some examples of this are:
> 1) I requested he not use my bath towel, that we have separate towels. He continued for years to "forget" and use my towel. I tried color coding, initials, separate racks, etc, but he always "forgot" or said what was the big deal. Now I just get a new towel every time and have a lot of laundry.
> 
> 2) Went on vacation with promises and plans to see some certain scenic places. Met friends there and he decided to spend all his time with the guys and never did take me to see the scenic places. And, because I didn't have my name on the car rental agreement, I could not drive myself to those places.
> 
> 3) Forced me to live with broken things around the house. Neither of us is handy with things like this so I asked if we can hire someone. He said no, he will fix it. But he didn't. I lived for weeks with two broken toilets, one was flushed with buckets of water, one didn't work at all. Finally hired a plumber and he gave me a hard time about the cost. Also lived without a working dishwasher for about a year because we could not afford a new one (single income family at the time). And yet he found room to donate a few *hundred* dollars a month to a religious organization, without my blessing. I finally got my new dishwasher after I told him my hands were cracked (I have eczema) and I was going to get paper plates and cups, disposable baby bottles, and save the pots and pans for him to do because I just could not do it anymore. Within a month we had the new dishwasher.
> 
> 4) Does not communicate well with me which causes endless frustration. Example I signed the kids up for a sports class on a weeknight, one night a week only. In the past he had taken them to the class. The first three weeks of the class he said he would take them, but then at the last minute he came home saying he couldn't- once he wasn't feeling well- I can understand that. Twice he said he wanted go to the gym instead. Each time he said he would take them next week and of course did not. So today is the fourth week and I now assume he's not taking them again, and don't even bother to ask for fear of entering into another argument. So he comes home and says he's taking them after I was all ready with keys in hand to take them myself.
> 
> 5) Criticizes things and complains constantly and it makes me go insane. Complains about the mess and clutter but does not offer to help pick it up. Criticizes me for having too much stuff, not being organized enough, using too many pots and pans when I cook a meal. I bought a card table and set up a jigsaw puzzle on it so I can watch TV and he complained that the table was ugly. I can't relax and be myself in my own home. And it's not a messy home, just a lived-in home with two kids and two working adults.
> 
> 6) If I bring up any controversial topic, even if I set aside a time we can both talk, and we sit down in a quiet place and I tell him my concerns using the "I feel" method, with the goal being to find a solution, he finds a way to flip the conversation around to being my fault and then feel the need to defend myself. He also interrupts me constantly or shows with body language that he is not interested (sighing, looking at watch, opening a magazine).
> 
> 7) Spends endless time on the computer. Says he's doing "important work" and sometimes he is indeed doing his work from home, but other times he just disappears into the bedroom with snack and remains on the computer watching movies or whatever.
> 
> 8) Would never think of taking me on a date. Ever. Finds ways to sabotage any plans we agree on. Like insisting that on date night, he needs to go to the gym first, which means he's not home until 8:30 PM. Forgetting our date nights and when he realizes he's forgotten he insists on doing whatever plans he's made instead. If we end up going on the date and having a nice time, or being intimate (which is very very rare) he will act grumpy, pick fights or push me away emotionally the next day.
> 
> 9) Gets me gifts that hurt, or nothing at all. Past years for Christmas I have received: a newspaper ad for a bedroom set I wanted, with promises to buy "someday" and never did. A gift card to Home Depot, which matched the one he got my step-father which was bought Christmas Eve after he forgot he was supposed to give him a gift. Many occasions I got nothing at all. Valentine's Day is a "stupid holiday."
> 
> 10) I have asked him many times over the years to please let me know if he goes to the grocery store after work, in case I need some things. He will "forget" to call me and come home with bags of groceries and then I have to make a separate trip which is a huge time-waster. Or, if I send him with a list he will forget several things on the list. If I underline that I want two of something for a recipe or whatever, he will come home with one and say, "But I thought one would be enough-- why do you need two?" He feigns innocence and says he forgot, but it happens 90% of the time, so I feel he is doing it on purpose.
> 
> 11) We have attempted many times to share the housework including schedules and calendars and such. He agrees on it. I even let him pick what he wants to do and I take the rest. He then neglects the housework and when I remind him he lists about 10 things he had to do instead. I have tried letting it sit and get dirtier but after a month the bathroom needs cleaning, and I will end up doing it myself. With no comments from him for a noticeably cleaner bathroom.
> 
> Recent argument as an example: I had a box of legos the kids didn't want anymore. Asked H (hubby) if he wanted them for his nephew the next time he visits. He said yes, absolutely. Legos had been sitting in the livingroom in a box for over a week. I put the box near his side of the bed. He put the box back in the livingroom. I said I didn't want the box in the livingroom, can he find a place to store it? I suggested the garage or his side of the closet (we have a small house and space is limited). He said the livingroom was already a cluttered mess as usual, so it would not hurt to have the box there. I said I was trying to clean up the livingroom, could he put it somewhere else if he wanted it? Otherwise I can donate it to Goodwill if we don't have room and buy more legos for nephew later. He said no, it can stay in the livingroom. I said how about the garage? He said he would sort through the legos "later" and decide if he wants them or which ones he wants. I said I really, really don't want the box in the livingroom anymore. I suggest the garage again. He says he needs to organize the garage first to make room for legos. (The garage is not that disorganized or crowded). Finally I say, I don't care at this point if you want the legos or not, I just don't want it in the livingroom, and if it stays in there I will donate it to Goodwill in two days. He accuses me of pressuring him into something he's not ready to deal with, and calls me a bully. I walk away in tears of frustration and anger. The legos get donated to Goodwill two days later. I get the cold shoulder for several days and passive aggressive behavior, and accusations that I have gotten rid of a perfectly good box of legos that he could have given his nephew.
> 
> I realized somewhere along the way that although I do have my faults too, this marriage and the way it has turned out is because I am trying way harder than he has. We have tried counseling but he won't do the homework. Or he only does it to convince me to stay a little longer when I'm about to pack my bags and leave, and then I resolve to give him another chance and he promises to make changes, and then usually two weeks later things are bad again.
> 
> I don't love him anymore. I think he can be a decent person to others, to our children, to society as a whole. He just is not good to me or for me. We have not had sex in months and I honestly don't miss it because it's hard to be intimate with someone who hurts you emotionally so much. Sex is based on trust and love.
> 
> I have seriously thought about leaving many times. But I have come to the conclusion that it's not the right choice right now. If I had unlimited funds, yeah maybe I would do that. But I choose to work part time so I can be there for the kids because they need me right now and I enjoy my relationship with them immensely. They are what keep me going, and I am a good mom and my kids and I are very close. We are invested in our home and in a good financial place right now that we can afford classes for the kids, braces, good health insurance, and planning for retirement and kids college. If I were to divorce I would have to work full time again and we could not afford to live as comfortably as we do now. Having lived on a single income for 10 years as a stay at home mom before I got my current job, it was a real struggle to make ends meet and now we are doing better.
> 
> Divorce is not always the right answer. Maybe someday I will get divorced when the kids are out of the house, but right now is not the time. I dream of one day having a nice little peaceful home and surrounded by children and grandchildren, and no sulking sourpuss cold shouldered husband to dampen my mood.
> 
> But for now, I need to learn to live in this difficult situation and maintain my sanity, and not lose myself in the process. I need to find ways to not have him get under my skin and cause me to lose my temper and get so incredibly frustrated and walk around with that bad feeling in the pit of my stomach whenever he's in the room. We still need to sometimes communicate about things in regards to running the household and I need to be able to accomplish that without it turning into an unproductive, time-wasting, emotionally draining argument.
> 
> I want to hear from those who are or were in my situation and get some advice on how to maintain the status quo for now. I appreciate your support. And please do not tell me to get a divorce-- as I said I have given this lots of thought and it's just not what I choose to do right now.


How do you live with such spouse? answer: you don't.
Sounds like there's nothing left to even resemble a marriage. You state that you don't love him anymore, but don't want to divorce. Why? Why would you choose to live this way?

How about separation? He needs a wake-up call badly, like, yesterday. This is no way to behave as a man and as a husband. He needs IC for his issues, they are not your fault and should not be taken on you and you should not accept it.
Thing is, he is not motivated to change or even wonder if there is something wrong with himself, while you're still there, cleaning the house, cooking, and doing his laundry. Sounds like he views you more like a housekeeper and a roommate, not as a woman and wife, hence, no sex...he prefers his computer, where who knows? might look at porn, or even start an EA. He won't change unless he has to. Not filing for divorce or separating at least...you ensure yourself a lifetime of this current reality.

How do you find joy? Your kids. Children are the purest source of joy. Take them to parks, to places, play with them. 
Develop your own hobbies. Make friends. Go out. Ditch your housewife activities, and improve your looks. Let him worry about losing you.


----------



## diwali123

I have to say my husband now treats me like a queen and I hope he thinks I treat him like a king.
He grew up on a farm. Both his parents still farm and have other part time jobs and are in their mid sixties. 
He spent his childhood working. And he's not bitter at all. He feels like its his job as a man to do things for his family. 

I highly recommend farm people.


----------



## Sabbby

Hortensia said:


> How do you live with such spouse? answer: you don't.
> Sounds like there's nothing left to even resemble a marriage. You state that you don't love him anymore, but don't want to divorce. Why? Why would you choose to live this way?
> 
> How about separation? He needs a wake-up call badly, like, yesterday. This is no way to behave as a man and as a husband. He needs IC for his issues, they are not your fault and should not be taken on you and you should not accept it.
> Thing is, he is not motivated to change or even wonder if there is something wrong with himself, while you're still there, cleaning the house, cooking, and doing his laundry. Sounds like he views you more like a housekeeper and a roommate, not as a woman and wife, hence, no sex...he prefers his computer, where who knows? might look at porn, or even start an EA. He won't change unless he has to. Not filing for divorce or separating at least...you ensure yourself a lifetime of this current reality.
> 
> How do you find joy? Your kids. Children are the purest source of joy. Take them to parks, to places, play with them.
> Develop your own hobbies. Make friends. Go out. Ditch your housewife activities, and improve your looks. Let him worry about losing you.


VeggieMOM, there is one thing I read recently that hit home. The children. While you think they love and want him around. They may be picking up dysfunctional habits themselves. Or may get stuck in dysfunctional relationships as an adult as a result of growing up in that environment. I have a son that my PA helped me raise from 4th grade and he is going to 9th and Im afraid that he started to pick up some of those bad habits. (sarcasm, mumbling, avoidance)
We have talked and I explain to him that the way he has watched me be treated is not the way you treat a loved one. When he gets back home from summer break with his dad my PA will be gone and Im gonna try to reverse all the damage I have allowed into his life for 5 years


----------



## SaltInWound

Yeah, those PA types are useless in a medical crisis. I learned not to expect him to be there for me or our son, no matter how life threatening the condition, or procedure.


----------



## diwali123

I barely remember him at my d's birth and he refused to cut the cord. 
I have to say she needed stitches and I was the one who felt like I was going to faint. And I literally couldn't be in the room with her tied into a papoose. 
He let me sit in the waiting room while he stayed with her. 
I really thought that I was going to pass out. 
It seemed like he was useless and then he would do something like that and I would get hooked back in.


----------



## Sabbby

diwali123 said:


> I have to say my husband now treats me like a queen and I hope he thinks I treat him like a king.
> He grew up on a farm. Both his parents still farm and have other part time jobs and are in their mid sixties.
> He spent his childhood working. And he's not bitter at all. He feels like its his job as a man to do things for his family.
> 
> I highly recommend farm people.


You're gonna make me fill up my tank and find a farm.


----------



## diwali123

I have to say, I got lucky because he has liberal values unlike most of the people he grew up with!


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## Sabbby

We all need to know that there is life after a PA husband. All men aren't evil and crazy. Letting go can't be as bad as what we are already going through.


----------



## Wonderinginnc

Sabbby said:


> Sounds like every man I have ever known. They need their mommy, not a wife. Did you ever conceive?


We never conceived a second child. I took Clomid for a few months which made me extremely overly emotional. I went off Clomid and didn't take any more steps to conceive. In retrospect, it was probably for the best.


----------



## Sabbby

Wonderinginnc said:


> We never conceived a second child. I took Clomid for a few months which made me extremely overly emotional. I went off Clomid and didn't take any more steps to conceive. In retrospect, it was probably for the best.


:iagree: Things happen for a reason. I have 3 sons by 2 husbands, but I would always include my PA as my 4th child. I always wanted a girl, but was too afraid the child would be PA too and now that we are through I would have been a single mom again. No fun...


----------



## SaltInWound

Sabbby said:


> :iagree: Things happen for a reason. I have 3 sons by 2 husbands, but I would always include my PA as my 4th child. I always wanted a girl, but was too afraid the child would be PA too and now that we are through I would have been a single mom again. No fun...


Most wives of PA men ARE single moms.


----------



## diwali123

Yes there is life after!!! 

Next week we are taking a 15 hour road trip and staying in a condo with my parents for a week. There's no way in hell I would have taken a trip like that with my ex. Eight hours in the car with him was too much.
And there's no way he would agree to
spend that much time with my parents. 
It's kind of surreal.


----------



## Sabbby

SaltInWound said:


> Most wives of PA men ARE single moms
> 
> Even if they still live together, im sure I can't imagine any relationship in my past being as lonely as what I have just been through. Im trying to focus on that aspect to get me through the loneliness and rejection I feel. Although I did the dumping, I feel dumped because he didnt care enough to call. I shouldnt be surprised because he never called or answered the phone when we were together. He felt (excuse was) we live together it can wait til we see each other since he was always home.


----------



## diwali123

I did the dumping too but I felt like he dumped me long ago and just wanted to live a lie. 
And then any positive attention from men was multiplied, and I took the wrong way.


----------



## SaltInWound

Does anyone here think there could be more to their spouse than simply passive aggressive behavior? BPD, narcissism, sociopath, etc?


----------



## Sabbby

diwali123 said:


> I did the dumping too but I felt like he dumped me long ago and just wanted to live a lie.
> And then any positive attention from men was multiplied, and I took the wrong way.


I agree, but I've read a lot of posts on here and most of the DUMPED do at least try to come back. He has not and its been over 2 weeks.

I will try not to make the same mistake with all the attention, but you know jerks come in all types.


----------



## Sabbby

SaltInWound said:


> Does anyone here think there could be more to their spouse than simply passive aggressive behavior? BPD, narcissism, sociopath, etc?


Oh yeah, depression, sociopath, adult adhd and gaming addiction. Mine had a little of everything and I became paranoid. My mouthwash smelled like urine after I cleaned his dressing room and threw away what I perceived as trash, because he would never clean and the room had a odor from years of accumulated dirty clothes and junk.


----------



## diwali123

Sabbby said:


> I agree, but I've read a lot of posts on here and most of the DUMPED do at least try to come back. He has not and its been over 2 weeks.
> 
> I will try not to make the same mistake with all the attention, but you know jerks come in all types.


My problem wasn't jerks. It was guys who were being friendly and I took it like they wanted more. I ended up getting hurt more than a few times. 

Yours might be doing a major silent treatment.


----------



## diwali123

SaltInWound said:


> Does anyone here think there could be more to their spouse than simply passive aggressive behavior? BPD, narcissism, sociopath, etc?


Yep...BPD, ADD, asperger's, sociopath, pot addict. I don't know, it's a little of everything. Didn't stay long enough to get him diagnosed.


----------



## Sabbby

diwali123 said:


> Yep...BPD, ADD, asperger's, sociopath, pot addict. I don't know, it's a little of everything. Didn't stay long enough to get him diagnosed.


I forgot the biggest one of all LOW SELF ESTEEM. That is the root to most of their problems. They don't like who they are!


----------



## diwali123

My ex could be very charming and funny in a group of friends. He seemed to have high self esteem. He seemed so confident. 

I think he is afraid of true success of any kind.


----------



## Sabbby

diwali123 said:


> My ex could be very charming and funny in a group of friends. He seemed to have high self esteem. He seemed so confident.
> 
> I think he is afraid of true success of any kind.


Mine too in front of others, but he couldnt keep that front up at home so I saw the true person behind the smoke and mirrors. Not sure if he was afraid of success or just lazy, but either way he had no motivation to do anything positive or productive with his life. When people found out he was unemployed they would talk behind his back but they would also say he didnt seem anything like what we describe about these men.


----------



## diwali123

I guess I should say my ex had a decent job. But in terms of anything else, he just didn't want to even try. 
And he would insult and complain and not shut up about rich people and how they got so lucky and his life was just crap.


----------



## diwali123

Anyone have kids with a PA and the kid shows some signs of it? My d is The queen of going as slow as she can when she is mad or doesn't want to be told what to do.


----------



## DaytoDay

PA is normal human behavior, especially for kids. Like everything, it becomes unhealthy when overdone, or when the particular behavior is inappropriate for the age.


----------



## Sabbby

I guess you are right, PA men are nothing but big children, but I'm gonna do my best to reinforce appropriate behavior for my child just to be on the safe side


----------



## diwali123

What's really odd is now when it's just the two of us at kid drop offs he wants to look me right in the eye. 
And I hate it. First of all he looks worse everytime I see him. Second I don't get why now he wants to do that.


----------



## SaltInWound

diwali123 said:


> What's really odd is now when it's just the two of us at kid drop offs he wants to look me right in the eye.
> And I hate it. First of all he looks worse everytime I see him. Second I don't get why now he wants to do that.


You are no longer a threat. Remember, these men feel powerless.


----------



## Sabbby

SaltInWound said:


> You are no longer a threat. Remember, these men feel powerless.


That is exactly what I was gonna say. No longer a threat! I could tell that my PA man felt inferior around me, especially around others because Im a people person. I laugh and joke and love to give advise and he would just sit there quiet and boring, making faces behind my back or shaking his head as if to say I was stupid or didnt know what I was talking about. It's a shame because he was borderline genius, the most intelligent person I ever met yet couldnt carry on an adult conversation and so insecure.


----------



## Openminded

Frequently people with very high I.Q.'s can be socially awkward. My ex-husband was like that.


----------



## Sabbby

Openminded said:


> Frequently people with very high I.Q.'s can be socially awkward. My ex-husband was like that.


Was your ex a angry passive aggressive also? I had no problem with his lack of social skills. It was the personal attacks in public that I hated (either PA or yelling). His family said his previous girlfriends were quiet and he admitted that he never had a relationship last past 6 months prior to our 5 years.


----------



## Openminded

Sabbby said:


> Was your ex a angry passive aggressive also? I had no problem with his lack of social skills. It was the personal attacks in public that I hated (either PA or yelling). His family said his previous girlfriends were quiet and he admitted that he never had a relationship last past 6 months prior to our 5 years.


Not angry (he was very afraid of anger) but very PA in quiet, sneaky ways. And he loved, in public, having everyone know just how intelligent he really was (like they might miss it otherwise).

What I remember most is being mentally exhausted from trying to unravel all that PA behavior. Constantly thinking "what does that mean". All of that is gone now and I have a very "even" life. I like it that way.


----------



## Sabbby

Openminded said:


> Not angry (he was very afraid of anger) but very PA in quiet, sneaky ways. And he loved, in public, having everyone know just how intelligent he really was (like they might miss it otherwise).
> 
> What I remember most is being mentally exhausted from trying to unravel all that PA behavior. Constantly thinking "what does that mean". All of that is gone now and I have a very "even" life. I like it that way.


They were alike in many ways except mine was angry, but in denial about it. However, I can relate to the arrogance, he too bragged on himself and even went as far as to call some people stupid to their face. He was sneaky, creepy and avoiding. I think he liked keeping me guessing and in the dark about anything, no matter how trivial. One thing you said is for sure, it was mentally exhausting, I just can't wait until I get to the point where I like him being gone, because Im still hurting. Thanks Openminded for your insight, I need it to keep going strong


----------



## diwali123

What did you guys like about them at the beginning? 
I keep wondering that myself. It's hard to remember because he changed so much.


----------



## Openminded

Well, in my case it was his intelligence. I was very young and didn't realize the baggage that came with him. I thought I could help him but it didn't work out that way.


----------



## northernlights

In my case, I was attracted to how laid-back he was. It was impossible to fight with him, because he was so easy-going. I thought for sure that we would never get divorced, because we didn't ever fight!

Ha. The reality, of course, is that he's not laid-back, he's passive. He won't start any fights with me, but he won't _do _anything for me either. It's like I barely exist to him. And I don't hang around waiting for him to read my mind, either. He just ignores whatever I say or ask for.


----------



## Openminded

Yes. I agree. My ex-husband appeared to be laid back. The reality was different. My situation was very much like yours. And in case you wondered what life is like on the other side --- it's wonderful.


----------



## diwali123

Same here. Intelligent, laid back, creative, great sense of humor. 
Now I know I was looking for things that made a good friend not a good partner!


----------



## bailingout

diwali123 said:


> Anyone have kids with a PA and the kid shows some signs of it? My d is The queen of going as slow as she can when she is mad or doesn't want to be told what to do.


I don't think she's showing the PA as of now but I do see similarities in how they both overreact and can't handle their emotions. When he gets mad at me, he storms away and pouts, usually to the office or outside. When she gets startled or scared by something, she starts crying and runs away from whatever it is. She is very sensitive to alot of things so I'm not sure if just and age thing, she's 8. 




SlowCreek.NoPaddle said:


> PA is normal human behavior, especially for kids. Like everything, it becomes unhealthy when overdone, or *when the particular behavior is inappropriate for the age*.


I just had to chuckle at this one today...H & D went at it last night, she got bent out of shape by another kid who was over. After I sent them all home, he was trying to point out that her behavior was not age appropriate and asked her how old she was? (She is older than the other kid). It was pretty obvious I didn't like how he handled it & he noticed my facial expressions. I looked at him and asked him how old he was? He looked stunned and ask me what that was suppose to mean? I said, "I don't appreciate how you yelled at her, called her "a baby" which is insulting and degrading and said that her behavior is why she doesn't have any friends." That's ridicoulas, she DOES have friends and you need to stop overexaggerating like that, yelling at her is not necessary, I'm sick of you insulting/degrading her and you did absolutely nothing to help her figure out how to deal with her emotions or teach her how she should have handled it. Any then you have the nerve to stand there and ridicule her behavior, she's only 8. You're 44." He got mad and walked away. Came back a minute later and said he was going to bed. It was 7pm. Her and I ate dinner while he punished me by refusing to eat dinner with us. :rofl:


----------



## Sabbby

diwali123 said:


> What did you guys like about them at the beginning?
> I keep wondering that myself. It's hard to remember because he changed so much.


Aside from all the other comments, laid back, intelligent, etc. he was extremely eager to please, he made life so much easier for me. I own my own business and was a single mom. I worked and he did everything else without being asked, in the beginning. It didnt take long for him to get lazy. Although he continued to take care of the home, he did it under duress at his own pace, when things got out of hand. Before I knew it, his friend was staying until 5am playing Xbox with him and he was sleeping most of the day and anything personal I asked for was ansered with a NO. I stayed hoping things would go back to the way they were for that short period in the beginning, to no avail.


----------



## diwali123

bailingout said:


> I don't think she's showing the PA as of now but I do see similarities in how they both overreact and can't handle their emotions. When he gets mad at me, he storms away and pouts, usually to the office or outside. When she gets startled or scared by something, she starts crying and runs away from whatever it is. She is very sensitive to alot of things so I'm not sure if just and age thing, she's 8.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I just had to chuckle at this one today...H & D went at it last night, she got bent out of shape by another kid who was over. After I sent them all home, he was trying to point out that her behavior was not age appropriate and asked her how old she was? (She is older than the other kid). It was pretty obvious I didn't like how he handled it & he noticed my facial expressions. I looked at him and asked him how old he was? He looked stunned and ask me what that was suppose to mean? I said, "I don't appreciate how you yelled at her, called her "a baby" which is insulting and degrading and said that her behavior is why she doesn't have any friends." That's ridicoulas, she DOES have friends and you need to stop overexaggerating like that, yelling at her is not necessary, I'm sick of you insulting/degrading her and you did absolutely nothing to help her figure out how to deal with her emotions or teach her how she should have handled it. Any then you have the nerve to stand there and ridicule her behavior, she's only 8. You're 44." He got mad and walked away. Came back a minute later and said he was going to bed. It was 7pm. Her and I ate dinner while he punished me by refusing to eat dinner with us. :rofl:


My d is 8 too. I had her in occupational
therapy for a year. She has many symptoms of sensory integration disorder and it helped her immensely. 
I used to not be able to brush her hair, she couldn't stand loud noises, was afraid of everything, made noises 24 hours a day. 
I wonder if PA and sensory integration go together. 

What bothers me is she can be very manipulative. For years she would pretend not to understand what we were talking about or ask questions she knew the answers to and then insist she didn't know.
My h and I have been very strict with her and seem to have stopped it. i think it's the start of amusing yourself by lying and conniving. She knows I have ZERO tolerance for it and that it's morally not right.


----------



## Wiserforit

northernlights said:


> And mumbling, or letting his sentences trail off, or talking to me when I'm in another room but not raising his voice so I can hear him. I don't have trouble understanding other people, so I know it's not my hearing.


My wife now came from a culture that is terribly, terribly lazy about communication. Speaking a full sentence is asking too much of them. 

Pronouncing all of the letters is also an imposition. So you cannot distinguish between "can" or "can't" because they are both "ca". Neither the "N" nor the "t" is worth all that heavy effort to pronounce. 

But she is trying, and has the right attitude that speaking clearly is her responsibility. So when I correct her she practices it in front of me. It takes real concentration to ask yourself why you could not understand something that a person just spoke merely feet away from you. 

Doing that for me - correcting her pronunciation - proves she is on my side.


----------



## deejov

diwali123 said:


> That is terrible.
> 
> I was just going to ask if anyone else had the experience of having them agree with something and then later on insisting that the conversation never happened?
> 
> We had many instances of that. To the point where I started doubting his grasp on reality. I don't know if he is delusional or brain damage or is gas lighting. It was the most bizarre thing,


The source of MC arguements. Denying he even said that.
But months later, "I said a lot of things I wish I hadn't". So he does know he's caught. 

This is what got me thinking about lying in general. I'm the one that decided he was lying.

So I decided what was the truth. For me. He did say it. And I lost all my energy to even argue about who said what. So what.


----------



## Katiebird

I am about 85% through reading this thread. I have posted before in these forums about my PA H. As I read the OP by VM and others I was amazed. So similar it was scary . . .

Briefly – I am married to what everyone thinks is a really nice, mild mannered, good natured guy. When I met him he was a church-going, non-smoking, drinking, dependable, could fix anything guy . . . just perfect for me as I had just gotten out of an emotionally & physically unavailable marriage. He said his first wife was drinking and having affairs. He locked her out of the house. 

His background: large family, religiously strict. Children were for helping on the ranch. If you got out of line you were beaten with switches, belts, etc. Older sibling married early to get away from house. He claims his mother was controlling and his father quiet – generally deferring to her.

Yes, there were warning signs . . . but I chose to ignore them. 

Fast forward 20 + years. Like VM – will give a few examples:

*Vacations:* tend to be triggers for behavior. For many, many years, every time – and I mean every time – we would take a vacation – “something” would set him off and we would all get the silent treatment. Didn’t matter where we were or who we were with – most of the time the silent treatment is directed toward me and usually my kids, when they were along. We spend much of the time trying to figure out what we had done . . . and asking didn’t help. This still happens sometimes but I usually tell him ahead of time I am not putting up with this $&!% so if he wants to pout and be sullen for whatever wrong he imagines we have done he will be doing it on his own in the hotel. 

*Procrastination:* We have a bathroom that was torn up for remodeling in 2001. It is still stripped to the studs. He gets furious when I “push” and set “deadlines” for him to get it done. He wants to do it right since the blanket-blank people who did the last remodel were totally incompetent. I have blinds that we have had for 3 years and have been stored in the un-remodeled bathroom. 

*OCD:* Garage and storage shed are filled with items that he plans to reuse, turn in for money, etc. A couple years ago we had a yard sale – about our 4th and he was going to put all the stuff that didn’t sell back in for the next garage sale. I finally put my foot down and much of it went to Goodwill or the trash, but not after the silent treatment for a bit. If it would not have been for his son, I am not sure it would have happened. 

*Birthdays/Anniversaries: * Has forgotten probably 5-6 of each over our 20 years. Now, DIL reminds him – and I usually get a card. He doesn’t do flowers – they die. 

In most arguments/discussions he says that I am controlling and trying to parent him. Most discussions end with him saying something like, “what do you want me to say and I will say it.” I also get the “why can’t you forgive and forget, like I do?” – except he doesn’t either. Or he will blankly sit there and not say anything which usually makes me so mad that I start yelling or crying – success for him. 

Most recently, I have had some surgery and he will do things for me, if asked, but other than a couple short kisses – one when he was off for a fishing trip – he hasn’t touched me – no hugs, pats on the hand – no signs of physical comfort. I posted more on this on a post in Ladies Lounge if you care to read. 

I am now active in the community. I work FT. I go to see my children without him – always an excuse as to why he cannot go with me . . . so I just gave up asking. I don’t depend on him for my happiness. However, he does still manage to get under my skin, make me mad and wonder how I could have made a stupid mistake twice.


----------



## diwali123

Katiebird said:


> I am about 85% through reading this thread. I have posted before in these forums about my PA H. As I read the OP by VM and others I was amazed. So similar it was scary . . .
> 
> Briefly – I am married to what everyone thinks is a really nice, mild mannered, good natured guy. When I met him he was a church-going, non-smoking, drinking, dependable, could fix anything guy . . . just perfect for me as I had just gotten out of an emotionally & physically unavailable marriage. He said his first wife was drinking and having affairs. He locked her out of the house.
> 
> His background: large family, religiously strict. Children were for helping on the ranch. If you got out of line you were beaten with switches, belts, etc. Older sibling married early to get away from house. He claims his mother was controlling and his father quiet – generally deferring to her.
> 
> Yes, there were warning signs . . . but I chose to ignore them.
> 
> Fast forward 20 + years. Like VM – will give a few examples:
> 
> *Vacations:* tend to be triggers for behavior. For many, many years, every time – and I mean every time – we would take a vacation – “something” would set him off and we would all get the silent treatment. Didn’t matter where we were or who we were with – most of the time the silent treatment is directed toward me and usually my kids, when they were along. We spend much of the time trying to figure out what we had done . . . and asking didn’t help. This still happens sometimes but I usually tell him ahead of time I am not putting up with this $&!% so if he wants to pout and be sullen for whatever wrong he imagines we have done he will be doing it on his own in the hotel.
> 
> *Procrastination:* We have a bathroom that was torn up for remodeling in 2001. It is still stripped to the studs. He gets furious when I “push” and set “deadlines” for him to get it done. He wants to do it right since the blanket-blank people who did the last remodel were totally incompetent. I have blinds that we have had for 3 years and have been stored in the un-remodeled bathroom.
> 
> *OCD:* Garage and storage shed are filled with items that he plans to reuse, turn in for money, etc. A couple years ago we had a yard sale – about our 4th and he was going to put all the stuff that didn’t sell back in for the next garage sale. I finally put my foot down and much of it went to Goodwill or the trash, but not after the silent treatment for a bit. If it would not have been for his son, I am not sure it would have happened.
> 
> *Birthdays/Anniversaries: * Has forgotten probably 5-6 of each over our 20 years. Now, DIL reminds him – and I usually get a card. He doesn’t do flowers – they die.
> 
> In most arguments/discussions he says that I am controlling and trying to parent him. Most discussions end with him saying something like, “what do you want me to say and I will say it.” I also get the “why can’t you forgive and forget, like I do?” – except he doesn’t either. Or he will blankly sit there and not say anything which usually makes me so mad that I start yelling or crying – success for him.
> 
> Most recently, I have had some surgery and he will do things for me, if asked, but other than a couple short kisses – one when he was off for a fishing trip – he hasn’t touched me – no hugs, pats on the hand – no signs of physical comfort. I posted more on this on a post in Ladies Lounge if you care to read.
> 
> I am now active in the community. I work FT. I go to see my children without him – always an excuse as to why he cannot go with me . . . so I just gave up asking. I don’t depend on him for my happiness. However, he does still manage to get under my skin, make me mad and wonder how I could have made a stupid mistake twice.


How long were you married before he changed?


----------



## SaltInWound

diwali123 said:


> What did you guys like about them at the beginning?
> I keep wondering that myself. It's hard to remember because he changed so much.


20+ years ago, but I remember it clearly, because I have spent many years wondering where that guy went.....wishing he would have come back to me. He was so much fun to be around and made me laugh. He was so loving and satisfied my love language which is physical touch. We spent nights cuddling on the couch as we watched tv. Hold me in bed at night and tell me to have a good sleep. Hold my hand in public. And he satisfied my intellectual side by having long discussions on topics of history or science. *sigh* Gone, all gone.


----------



## diwali123

My ex used to just refuse to talk and stare at the wall. I could pour my heart out and cry and I would get nothing.
If I asked him about it he would say "what do you want me to say?" I can't tell you how much I came to hate that question. 
Then it got to be when I asked him
a question he would say "should I?"
"do you want to go to the park?" 
"should I?"

OH MY GOD.


----------



## Sabbby

Katiebird said:


> I am about 85% through reading this thread. I have posted before in these forums about my PA H. As I read the OP by VM and others I was amazed. So similar it was scary . . .
> 
> Briefly – I am married to what everyone thinks is a really nice, mild mannered, good natured guy. When I met him he was a church-going, non-smoking, drinking, dependable, could fix anything guy . . . just perfect for me as I had just gotten out of an emotionally & physically unavailable marriage. He said his first wife was drinking and having affairs. He locked her out of the house.
> 
> His background: large family, religiously strict. Children were for helping on the ranch. If you got out of line you were beaten with switches, belts, etc. Older sibling married early to get away from house. He claims his mother was controlling and his father quiet – generally deferring to her.
> 
> Yes, there were warning signs . . . but I chose to ignore them.
> 
> Fast forward 20 + years. Like VM – will give a few examples:
> 
> *Vacations:* tend to be triggers for behavior. For many, many years, every time – and I mean every time – we would take a vacation – “something” would set him off and we would all get the silent treatment. Didn’t matter where we were or who we were with – most of the time the silent treatment is directed toward me and usually my kids, when they were along. We spend much of the time trying to figure out what we had done . . . and asking didn’t help. This still happens sometimes but I usually tell him ahead of time I am not putting up with this $&!% so if he wants to pout and be sullen for whatever wrong he imagines we have done he will be doing it on his own in the hotel.
> 
> *Procrastination:* We have a bathroom that was torn up for remodeling in 2001. It is still stripped to the studs. He gets furious when I “push” and set “deadlines” for him to get it done. He wants to do it right since the blanket-blank people who did the last remodel were totally incompetent. I have blinds that we have had for 3 years and have been stored in the un-remodeled bathroom.
> 
> *OCD:* Garage and storage shed are filled with items that he plans to reuse, turn in for money, etc. A couple years ago we had a yard sale – about our 4th and he was going to put all the stuff that didn’t sell back in for the next garage sale. I finally put my foot down and much of it went to Goodwill or the trash, but not after the silent treatment for a bit. If it would not have been for his son, I am not sure it would have happened.
> 
> *Birthdays/Anniversaries: * Has forgotten probably 5-6 of each over our 20 years. Now, DIL reminds him – and I usually get a card. He doesn’t do flowers – they die.
> 
> In most arguments/discussions he says that I am controlling and trying to parent him. Most discussions end with him saying something like, “what do you want me to say and I will say it.” I also get the “why can’t you forgive and forget, like I do?” – except he doesn’t either. Or he will blankly sit there and not say anything which usually makes me so mad that I start yelling or crying – success for him.
> 
> Most recently, I have had some surgery and he will do things for me, if asked, but other than a couple short kisses – one when he was off for a fishing trip – he hasn’t touched me – no hugs, pats on the hand – no signs of physical comfort. I posted more on this on a post in Ladies Lounge if you care to read.
> 
> I am now active in the community. I work FT. I go to see my children without him – always an excuse as to why he cannot go with me . . . so I just gave up asking. I don’t depend on him for my happiness. However, he does still manage to get under my skin, make me mad and wonder how I could have made a stupid mistake twice.


ALL OF THIS SOUNDS EXTREMELY FAMILIAR!!! Any opinions on why vacations trigger PA behavior. My ex seemed to hate vacations, or hate me on vacation he would rather stay in the hotel than spend time with me & my kids...


----------



## SaltInWound

bailingout said:


> Her and I ate dinner while he punished me by refusing to eat dinner with us. :rofl:


I wish I had a dollar for every meal he refused to eat. Just another example of the ways a PA person punishes themselves in an attempt to punish others.


----------



## Sabbby

Mine seemed offended just by me asking him if he wanted to eat. He seemed to rarely be hungry, but I would catch him eating a bowl of cereal with half cup of sugar or candy when i'd go to bed. He didnt want to eat my cooking, apparently.


----------



## diwali123

Sabbby said:


> ALL OF THIS SOUNDS EXTREMELY FAMILIAR!!! Any opinions on why vacations trigger PA behavior. My ex seemed to hate vacations, or hate me on vacation he would rather stay in the hotel than spend time with me & my kids...


My opinion: although we never went on a real vacation but only visited his family....they like being miserable. Vacations are supposed to be happy and they aren't and they hate seeing other people happy. 
They are out of their element and don't have their normal routines and punishments to make other people miserable. Plus they know you are more happy so they have to up the ante. 
They hate social obligations and have to do the opposite of what is expected.


----------



## SaltInWound

Sabbby said:


> ALL OF THIS SOUNDS EXTREMELY FAMILIAR!!! Any opinions on why vacations trigger PA behavior. My ex seemed to hate vacations, or hate me on vacation he would rather stay in the hotel than spend time with me & my kids...


Vacations bring happiness to normal people. PA people salivate at the thought of sabotaging that happiness. My stbx started off our final family vacation by pouting the first night in a hotel room, refusing to explain what the problem was. It was the first time our son and I looked at each other and said "Let's go have some fun"......and we did.....without him. Just another example of punishing himself in an attempt to punish others.


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## pink_lady

SaltInWound said:


> Does anyone here think there could be more to their spouse than simply passive aggressive behavior? BPD, narcissism, sociopath, etc?


I'm 95% sure my STBXH and his mother both have NPD.


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## Sabbby

diwali123 said:


> My ex used to just refuse to talk and stare at the wall. I could pour my heart out and cry and I would get nothing.
> If I asked him about it he would say "what do you want me to say?" I can't tell you how much I came to hate that question.
> Then it got to be when I asked him
> a question he would say "should I?"
> "do you want to go to the park?"
> "should I?"
> 
> OH MY GOD.


What do you want me to say and "WHATEVER" is what mine would say. See all the familiarities, it's crazy


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## Wonderinginnc

OMG! I can't get over the similarities.

VACATIONS: Husband will not help be at all with planning. If asked, "I don't care. You always make great plans." So I do the planning, then when we get there, he always wants to do something to change the plan. "Let's try this restaurant." even though I have reservations at another one. He also has to have caffeine, but hates to pay the price for soda, so he goes without, ends up with a migraine, and goes to bed for at least part of one day of EVERY vacation trip. Isn't it more cost effective to pay $2.50 for a soda, than to lose a whole day of your vacation to bed? The last big family trip we took, I came back from the fitness center to find that he had completely packed up the kitchen area of the condo, and was angry that I had gone out to exercise when we were checking out at 11. Umm, no, we're leaving tomorrow at 11. Guess who didn't help to unpack the kitchen, or to help me repack (or load the cars) the next day.

PROCRASTINATION: He can never complete any project. We work together so I can't tell you how many cases I've picked up and managed because of angry clients. Regarding the chocolate bottle I talked about earlier, I finally asked him "Why did you leave me with all the recyclables on the counter?" He yelled that he was going to put them away; I just hadn't given him enough time yet. They've been there for over a week. 

He refuses to make eye contact.

I get the same birthday/anniversary/Mother's Day present each year: a bunch of mystery books, which I don't read, he reads. 

He buys me things I don't want, and then gets mad at me when I don't show enough appreciation. For example, he bought a huge triple mens' suit valet from a store going out of business over the weekend. He left it in the middle of my closet, blocking my path to my work clothes. This is not something I need or want, or will even use. Yet he's mad that I'm not excited about it. 

He has definitely become quirkier and more passive aggressive overtime. The other people who work in my office have commented on it frequently. 

And yes, he calls me controlling, yet at the same time, he expects me to manage everything, except when he wants to manage it. But if it gets the least little bit difficult, he's ready to leave it back to me to handle. 

He wants to be part of the family only when its convenient for him, not all the time. Now, we don't really need him to be there, so we forget to include him in things. It's a little sad how our daughter feels about her dad, but if the truth be told, she has a much healthier relationship with him than I do.


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## Sabbby

diwali123 said:


> My opinion: although we never went on a real vacation but only visited his family....they like being miserable. Vacations are supposed to be happy and they aren't and they hate seeing other people happy.
> They are out of their element and don't have their normal routines and punishments to make other people miserable. Plus they know you are more happy so they have to up the ante.
> They hate social obligations and have to do the opposite of what is expected.


Well that would explain it. I love vacations, so it's good I dumped him otherwise he would have ruined my life. I live to get away...


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## SaltInWound

diwali123 said:


> If I asked him about it he would say "*what do you want me to say*?" I can't tell you how much I came to hate that question.


The tone was a mix of hatred and condescension. I cringe to hear that question. He usually ended it with emphasis on my name.


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## diwali123

Yep. Exactly. 
I would say I wanted the truth, communication. He would insist he was thinking and feeling nothing.


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## Sabbby

SaltInWound said:


> Vacations bring happiness to normal people. PA people salivate at the thought of sabotaging that happiness. My stbx started off our final family vacation by pouting the first night in a hotel room, refusing to explain what the problem was. It was the first time our son and I looked at each other and said "Let's go have some fun"......and we did.....without him. Just another example of punishing himself in an attempt to punish others.


Sorry to get off the subject a bit but this post brings to mind something my ex did to me. I was driving and he asked where was I going and I told him back to work. He kept asking and I kept telling him, extremely confused why he kept asking. Finally he pointed to my dashboard and I looked and my turn signal was on. I turned it off and looked at him as if to say JERK why didnt you just tell me my turn signal was still on.. As I turned to look at him he was looking down at the floor cracking up inside. He didn't know I saw him. He was laughing so hard inside that his entire body was shaking at the fact that he got under my skin. It was at that point I realized he liked ticking me off.


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## Wiserforit

SaltInWound said:


> Vacations bring happiness to normal people. PA people salivate at the thought of sabotaging that happiness.


Exactly so. There is a term coined by the guy who wrote "Nasty People" called the Invalidator. 

The Invalidator does just that - he/she rains on everyone's parade, can find something wrong in any situation... They just thrive on bringing people down. That is exercising power.


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## diwali123

What a child! Unbelievable.


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## Sabbby

diwali123 said:


> what a child! Unbelievable.


yes indeed


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## SaltInWound

Wonderinginnc said:


> VACATIONS: Husband will not help be at all with planning. He doesn't help, because if something doesn't go right, it won't be his fault. If asked, "I don't care. You always make great plans." Ahhhh, but he does care. He is setting you up to fail So I do the planning, then when we get there, he always wants to do something to change the plan. See, you did it wrong. I succeeded in making you feel bad. I will sabotage your happiness "Let's try this restaurant." even though I have reservations at another one. He also has to have caffeine, but hates to pay the price for soda, so he goes without, ends up with a migraine, Punishes himself in an attempt to punish youand goes to bed for at least part of one day of EVERY vacation trip. Isn't it more cost effective to pay $2.50 for a soda, than to lose a whole day of your vacation to bed? It's not about the cost of the soda or the vacation. It is about making you unhappy The last big family trip we took, I came back from the fitness center to find that he had completely packed up the kitchen area of the condo, and was angry that I had gone out to exercise when we were checking out at 11. Umm, no, we're leaving tomorrow at 11. Guess who didn't help to unpack the kitchen, or to help me repack (or load the cars) the next day. Oh joy. He found a way to ruin the last day of your vacation. Next time he pulls that stunt, leave it packed and eat out in restaurants and make sure you have a separate suitcase for YOUR stuff, so if he wants his stuff unpacked and packed, he can take care of it.





Wonderinginnc said:


> It's a little sad how our daughter feels about her dad, but if the truth be told, she has a much healthier relationship with him than I do.


Here is my thought on that. Perhaps the reason your daughter can interact better with him is because she grew up with the dysfunction and understands him better. Our son (now grown) is so much better at that interaction, because he picked up on the behavior, so he knows how his dad ticks. I, on the other hand, did not grow up around this dysfunction. It is illogical to me, therefore I did not know how to interact without having that conflict. I was focusing on the why, when that doesn't matter. Now that our son is older, he is able to explain to me in terms I can understand, because he understands the thinking from both sides. Sort of like he is the interpreter for 2 people who don't speak the same language.


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## Wiserforit

Sabbby said:


> It was at that point I realized he liked ticking me off.


Such a common theme with their actions too: look how smart I am because I can deceive you. Inside joke. Took ya long enough, stupid! Then of course if you get upset it's "can't you take a joke?" Lighten up. 

Well, no - this is not being smart. It's just being mean. And after you have provoked me, don't play the victim card as if I am the one who provoked you.


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## Sabbby

Wiserforit said:


> Such a common theme with their actions too: look how smart I am because I can deceive you. Inside joke. Took ya long enough, stupid! Then of course if you get upset it's "can't you take a joke?" Lighten up.
> 
> Well, no - this is not being smart. It's just being mean. And after you have provoked me, don't play the victim card as if I am the one who provoked you.


EXACTLY
Wiserforit, thank you for the revelation. I don't know what took me so long to expose all this for what it is. I've been the subject of intentional covert verbal and mental abuse all this time and didn't know it. Not a day went by in almost 5 years that he didn't do something to take my joy away.


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## deejov

I figured out vacations last year.
Making decisions makes one responsible.
One could be blamed if it doesn't go right.

A deep part of a PA trait is the puppet syndrome.
A victim blames everyone else.
Even minor decisions about what to do cause anxiety.
So they tend to deflect ALL decisions, big or small. 

In a way, they are trying to avoid being wrong and having to take blame. "If I don't do anything, I can't get blamed for it later".

If you can understand that, you can understand how self esteem fits into it. It's not always about trying to deceive... it's a bit about deflecting due to a lack of confidence to just be themselves and make mistakes. That is kinda sad.

The flip side to this is a PA trait is to be independent, and not rely on anyone (lack of intimacy). "I don't need anyone in my life".
Of course this is self esteem based as well. Don't think they don't realise what jerks they are. They do. The little devil on their shoulders tells them they are not being a man, and no woman would want them. Deflect the rejection. Refuse intimate connection. No eye contact. 

It's almost like a sh!t test. He thinks...I treat you like garbage... and you still want to have sex with me? 

The best thing I did was to stop making decisions. With a phrase "your a smart guy, I'm sure you will think of something".

And he's much less PA about things. Partly because of being forced to make his own decisions, and partly because of my boundaries on intimacy and how I want to be treated. 

People can learn new dynamics in a relationship.


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## DaytoDay

> Then of course if you get upset it's "can't you take a joke?" Lighten up.


^^^^^This!^^^^

No matter what HE does, *I'm* making a mountain out of a molehill. He used to do stuff to me that would irritate me, and when I would get mad and ask him, "What is your problem?," he would say, "I'm just trying to get a rise out of you." "Really? Well, congratulations, you succeeded!" The fact that he continued doing it meant that he liked getting me pissed. He always played it off like it was a joke and I was being unreasonable. He defended it as being like a little boy that likes a little girl and pulls her pigtails to get her attention. Seriously, Dude? You're almost 60 years old! Usually little boys figure out pretty quickly that that approach doesn't work to get girls to like you.


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## Sabbby

DEEJOV sounds like you found a way to live with your PA are you still together? I don't think that strategy would have worked for me because mine was unemployed and everything belonged to me, before we met. If I forced him to make decisions, he would surely make me regret it. Telling him how smart he was, huh, anytime I gave him a compliment he responded with arrogance instead of gratitude. IT IS SAD WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT. I feel sorry for him that he has to live his life this way. "IN FEAR" Thats what this all boils down to, fear of failure, dependency and being discovered for what they really are.


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## deejov

Sabby, we are together for a while longer yet. A few more months.

I got tired of looking at him with digust. I started paying more attention to the real guy inside, who isn't a bad person. Just lacking some skills in life. All he knows is PA, that's what he learned.

It wasn't a compliment. It's not that I told him he was smart. I didn't FIX it for him, or make the decision. I just... didn't do it. Let him go. He figured out what to do. The phrase "you're a smart guy" was better than "I'm not your mother, do it yourself" which is what I kinda thought, but didn't want to say. 

Yes, I could have just left. Tried to a few times. 
I"ve learned a lot about myself in sticking around for awhile.


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## diwali123

The biggest argument we had over reality was this. Long story but it's a doozy. 
So before we got married he promised me that we would move to a big city so I could find a better job. 
Two years in I realized that was a lie, he was never going to move. So I tried to make the best of it in a small town with a crappy job market. 
Kept getting fired or laid off for stupid reasons. Of course he always told me it was my fault. (funny...now that I'm in a city I've had the same good job for four years)
Finally I had enough, I decided to start my own business from home. We went out to eat and I had a long talk with him. He told me he would support me doing the business, we discussed how long it would take for me to make a profit. 

He helped me set up my web pages I got certified, had a story in the paper about my business, spent over 8 hours a day marketing, learning, submitting proposals. 

Two months in he suddenly decided that conversation never happened. Just never happened. And I was ruining his life. And it wasn't fair. And I started packing my stuff twice to go live with my mom because he was being so evil, angry and rude every second of the day. 

Long story but we found out he has a severe thyroid disorder, and once he got treated, he was much better and apologized for all the things he had said. 

So then he wanted to have a baby. After much talk about our roles, I agreed. He told me he would be an active father and make sure that I would get help and be taken care of. 

Two weeks before she was born he said he wasn't going to help because it asbt fair to him. And he didn't. 

About two months after she was born we got into a huge fight about him not even watching her for an hour at a time so I could go to the store. 
He kept saying awful things about how i was lazy and I didnt work for two years, and I just said "why did you want to have a baby with me if Im this awful person?" 

"I wanted you to make a contribution to the relationship." 

I asked him what that meant and he said "well I never said I agreed that you could start the business." 

I seriously wanted to slap him. He basically tricked me into having a baby to punish me for starting the business. 

Who does that!? I felt like I was being stabbed in the heart. 

Two years later we were in MC after our first separation and I brought that up. I said I thought he had a mental illness with delusions or some kind of brain damage because he couldn't remember that conversation.
The MC said that everyone has their own point of view. I said sure but when one person can't remember an entire conversation they need medical intervention. 

He said "well we talked about it but I told you that you could only do it for two months." 

I had an online tarot card reading during the divorce process and the reader was straight on about my ex. He even said that he saw him as a sociopath and compared him to Hitler. This was without me not saying anything about him.


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## Wiserforit

SlowCreek.NoPaddle said:


> "I'm just trying to get a rise out of you."


The word "just" is a minimizer they learn to use, making molehills out of every mountain they make. Another minimizer is "only". I was "only" teasing you. 

And it isn't "like" little boys and girls - this is the analogy deception. This is part of the gaslighting or crazy-making tactical war kit. I'm not really this grown man abusing you emotionally. I am really just a little boy showing my love for a little girl. 

*dewali123* - selective memory and selective attention. That is why I learned to write agreements on paper and put them on the wall, behind a door or something. Talk about dirty, dirty pool - they know exactly what agreements they made. It's a lack of scruples. Yes, they are this evil and it is one of the reasons counseling may be in vain. All they have to do is lie and manipulate the counselor. They've learned how to frame you as the bad guy in every situation and many counselors are looking for the "everyone did something wrong" and "truth is somewhere in-between" version of reality. 

*deejov* one thing we are in agreement over is these personality disorders are zealots about avoiding blame. But the low self-esteem excuse is something the literature I read is pretty emphatic about rejecting. It is narcissism. Complete lack of empathy for others. They do suck you into feeling sorry for them, playing the victim with "boo hoo hoo I have low self-esteem", sure. But low self esteem is not a motivation for perpetrating cruel emotional warfare on others. If you actually did value others more than you value yourself, you would never act in ways to hurt them.

Camoflage is absolutely critical to these characters: putting on a face that disarms their victim. They are never, never, never going to say "I enjoy abusing you and the feeling of power I get when I make you upset." So instead it's "I'm a victim of my low self-esteem, and my intentions are to serve you".


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## deejov

Wiser,
I'm certain in what I'm seeing in my situation.... the low self esteem is being HIDDEN, and not called as an excuse. I'm the one reading it underneath the actions. He would rather be known as stupid or crazy than have it known he is doing these things out of hurt feelings. I'm 100% certain on this, and he admitted this in counselling. 

When one is detached... things look differently. I would have completely agreed with you a year ago. Nah, it's all a game. It's on purpose. Now, I see it in a totally different light. 

And the PA behavior has ground to a trickle. Only because I changed.


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## VeggieMom

I am back and reading all the posts. Please continue to share your stories. It makes me feel like I'm not alone.

Just an update-- H has taken off all week to do some stuff around the house and take one of the kids to a summer class. I was all set to go to my safe house for a mini-vacation but my other kid has the stomach flu, so I'm sticking around to care for her. 

Things are improving. Not earth-shattering changes but small changes that have lasted since our talk. The bathroom is slooooow progress but steady with him painting it. I think it will be finished soon. It had been sitting at 20% done for several weeks with paint buckets and drop cloths on the floor. I offered to do it together with him and he said no he wants to do it-- but he is actually doing it. Also is steadily working on a project for one of the kids that seems to be coming along nicely. And, he has made some real progress with the garage being cleaned out. At night he's been working on it. 

Also making eye contact and talking more. This is a huge change.

There are still arguments that he tries to deflect. I think this is as natural for him as breathing air and when I call him on it and try to come around to the topic at hand he gets frustrated. He genuinely feels I am not listening to him if I don't go off on the tangents.

Anyway, I do see changes and this is good.


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## deejov

Not listening by going off in tangents....
I'm a logical person. Once, I got a piece of paper. Wrote it down. 
Then went back to the original conversation. Gave him the piece of paper when I was done, so he could talk about those things too. 

That paper went back and forth for a long time. But it was probably the best "fight" we ever had. We took it to the MC for review. 

He no longer complains that I don't listen.


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## Sabbby

I felt the same way as you and I felt sorry for him too. I could see the little scared child inside this smart, talented, handsome man. Running around trying to please everyone who wasnt pleased with himself. And like you all, wanted to fix him, until one day I woke up so exhausted feeling more sorry for me. All my effort and patience was invane like the therapist told us the first year we were together, but I was deteremined because I could see the POTENTIAL


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## VeggieMom

Wiserforit said:


> *deejov* one thing we are in agreement over is these personality disorders are zealots about avoiding blame. But the low self-esteem excuse is something the literature I read is pretty emphatic about rejecting. It is narcissism. Complete lack of empathy for others. They do suck you into feeling sorry for them, playing the victim with "boo hoo hoo I have low self-esteem", sure. But low self esteem is not a motivation for perpetrating cruel emotional warfare on others. If you actually did value others more than you value yourself, you would never act in ways to hurt them.


I know for a fact in my H's case it is indeed low self-esteem. He had very high expectations placed on him from a young age and he did not live up to those expectations. He was expected to bring pride to his parents and study something like engineering. He did not do awful but he didn't do great either. 

He is often afraid to make the wrong decision so he makes no decision at all. Or, if I push him into making a decision he will come back and blame me for pushing him, or if it turns out badly he will blame me for that. Even things like where to sit when going out to eat.


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## Sabbby

Im happy for you veggiemom because he must love you to be changing. Mine wasnt willing to do that, not for any length of time.


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## deejov

I think the difference Wiser is talking about...

Although I see the self esteem issue, I don't accept it as an _excuse _for his behavior.
I'm not saying anyone should. 

I am finding myself a bit unarmed at the negative perception painted... my H is still a person, he's not a monster. Some people might be. But isn't that really saying the personality disorder is the excuse? There is no human potential. They are monsters. 

So... the women that married these un-human monsters. Are we just as crazy? I don't think so. Just uneducated in ourselves.

It is important for ME to remember that PA behavior only works with certain people. Ahem. Raise my hand. Fixers.
I'm one of them. 

If someone chooses to stay, they basically understand after awhile that they are the ones that need to change. I'm also going to say that based on the above statement.... that person might learn a lot about themselves.

If one is asking whether or not PA can be cured... Wiserforit hedges closer to the truth. Possibly not.

But this isn't really about whether PA can be cured or not. It's meant to be helpful to those who respectfully choose to stay, for now.


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## DaytoDay

Well put, Deejov. The fact is that these people exist in all aspects of life, and if you're prone to be susceptible to their antics, then you have the potential to be taken advantage of everywhere.

I believe recognition of the behavior is your best defense. ANY of these behaviors listed are unhealthy, whether the person is clinically PA or not. The key is to recognize it when it is first presented so you can put a stop to it, or at least protect yourself. It is not essential that you think of the person as a monster in order to do that. In fact, the earlier you can recognize it, the better chance you'll have of fostering a "healthy" relationship, because you won't be facilitating packing the baggage that we all look back on with regret and bitterness.

I know for _me_, I can easily look back and see where *I* went wrong. The reason behind my problems is that I too am a "fixer" and a "giver." If I had acted upon my initial recognition of the unfairness I saw in my M, I would have prevented years of additional offenses. *We*, the "victims" of the PA persons in our lives, are partly to blame for how we got here. We teach them how to treat us.

My philosophy is: Now I *know* better, now I can *do* better.

My interactions with my H have changed drastically in the last several weeks. I feel like I've learned the secret to the magician's tricks and now I can see the slight of hand in everything he does. For a while, since he claimed he wanted to change, I was labeling everything he said or did: PA, stonewalling, deflecting, defensiveness, rabbit-trails, etc. Well that just pixxed him off, because I don't really think he wants to change; I think that was just another one of his PA lines. Now I just keep it to myself but I'm equipped to know exactly how to respond.

Though our R has changed drastically, I don't think that we'll be able to make it. The M is very unfulfilling, very non-intimate. He isn't capable right now, not sure if he ever will be. But at least the knowledge and skill I've developed in interacting with him have made life a lot better for me.


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## deejov

Slow Creek, that about sums up my life too.

I quit being the victim. I'm not willing to run screaming for the hills, pinning everything on him and his personality disorder. I own my part in it.

Our relationship is also sexless, although there is non-sexual intimacy. I am not staying either. Same reasons. I'm tired of fake. I want more. Peace.


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## diwali123

I think my ex was very extreme because of his thyroid disorder. He refused to take care of it and wobbled between PA and outwardly abusive. 
I'm in no way saying that all people with PA behavior are evil or incapable of love. 
He ripped up our wedding picture, refused to let me leave the house, punched a hole in a door, threatened to destroy my things, pounded on doors when I was in the room with the door locked. 
He also threatened suicide twice and talked his way out of being institutionalized. 
I know he is not the norm.


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## Wiserforit

deejov said:


> Wiser,
> I'm certain in what I'm seeing in my situation.... the low self esteem is being HIDDEN, and not called as an excuse. I'm the one reading it underneath the actions. He would rather be known as stupid or crazy than have it known he is doing these things out of hurt feelings. I'm 100% certain on this, and he admitted this in counselling.


I see that it is presented as a false trichotomy: three choices, none of which are the right one: he's crazy, stupid, or has hurt feelings. Yes, all three of those are better than the truth: they're malicious. 

And talk about one of the oldest deceptions in the book! It is called the logical fallacy of the "embarassment criteria". If I can say something that appears embarassing, something I would not want you to know, then it must be true. 

Except you do know. He did tell you. And he would have led you to that conclusion manipulatively rather than in straightforward fashion because when you "discover it" yourself and then make him "admit" to it, how convinced you are. 

So we are naiive and say "Oh golly, look how poor baby doesn't want us to know how low his self esteem is." So he's actually the victim here, acting maliciously because of how horrible he feels about himself. 

But it makes zero sense logically to hurt others because you feel sorry for yourself. The key to understanding this behavior is to stop thinking like the narcissist and HIS feelings, but instead how ruthless he is towards the feelings of others. 




> When one is detached... things look differently. I would have completely agreed with you a year ago. Nah, it's all a game. It's on purpose. Now, I see it in a totally different light.


You've left it as an excuse: I'm hurt. You haven't actually made a complete coherent analysis. If he is doing it because he has hurt feelings, then it is still _on purpose_. "I feel hurt so I am doing sneaky, dirty, passive-aggressive emotional abuse." In short, I feel hurt so I am hurting you. 

It takes one time, _just once_ to explain to someone that what they are doing is wrong. Abusive. Cruel. Continuing to act the way they do demonstrates with certainty that they understand full well how much they are hurting other people, but they continue to do it anyway.

I don't agree that using the "low self esteem" excuse is being detached. That's continuing to buy into their own self-importance, and all-about-me thinking. It turns the attention off the harm they are causing others and makes them victims we must tend to. 




> And the PA behavior has ground to a trickle. Only because I changed.


We can refuse to be manipulated. Knowing all of their tactics is an enormous advantage for this. It isn't because you discovered his low self-esteem was the cause. 

If there is anything to have low self-esteem about, it is this very behavior because of how malicious it is. You have to be absolutely impervious to the feelings of others to act this way and you ought to feel horrible about it if you had any conscience at all. 

But since you have no conscience about it, there isn't anything to have low self-esteem over.

And don't guilt-trip anyone for identifying malicious behavior. That guilt-trip susceptibility is part of the reason you fall prey to these kinds of personalities: you want to project your own conscientiousness onto others. Instead of accepting the fact there are plenty of people in the world without a conscience. It varies on a scale of course from garden variety narcissists all the way up to depraved serial killer rapists/cannibals. 

But turning the tables and blaming the victim for pointing out the malice in the perpetrator is counterproductive.


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## deejov

I appreciate your passion for the topic, Wiser.

"I'm sorry you feel that way".

Pushing your own personal point of view beyond a gentle "that's your own opinion" is kinda PA.

Boundaries. Consequences. My own truth prevails. I'm glad I have the freedom to make up my own mind. Wow. Peace.


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## Wiserforit

SlowCreek.NoPaddle said:


> Well put, Deejov. The fact is that these people exist in all aspects of life, and if you're prone to be susceptible to their antics, then you have the potential to be taken advantage of everywhere.
> 
> I believe recognition of the behavior is your best defense.


Absolutely! They work in fast food joints, in government bureaucracies, in your place of employment... they can be anywhere. 

And they relentlessly evaluate people from the instant they meet them for how susceptible to manipulation they are.

A covert aggressive working at a fast food joint will see you coming and decide how he is going to play you before you make it to the register. He sees _hundreds_ of people a day and becomes a quick judge of people's dispositions.

So if you come in as a happy-go-lucky, naiive person with a conscience, he knows he can have his back turned to you, that he can speak either gruffly or impertinently - to put you down. Taking the stupid smile off your face is victory to them. But if you come in looking like you can take his head off then it's "Welcome to McDonald's, can I help you". 

I have to consciously put on my "game face" and be mentally prepared for going into any kind of government office where you are needing a permit, license, or something. These are places that attract just these kinds of personalities and it takes focus not to fall into their manipulative plays.


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## Wiserforit

deejov said:


> Pushing your own personal point of view beyond a gentle "that's your own opinion" is kinda PA.


That was funny! Learned by watching, I guess.

It isn't personal point of view - it is from the literature and one that took study to overcome. I believed in the low self esteem argument before I read intensively. It is true that you will see this "low self esteem" argument, more commonly in older Freudian-based works. Dr. George Simon writes pretty extensively on this. 

So calling it personal opinion is belittling. It is also not passive aggressive to be frank and forthright. That is the exact opposite of passive aggressive. This is a discussion board and you are free to put me on ignore instead of labeling it as "pushing". 

But the objective was shaming me with the Passive-Aggressive label. So one good lesson here is that anyone can use these tactics and very often in fact we have interesting kinds of co-dependencies going where the "victim" is a perpetrator in their own right too. 

"I'm sorry you feel that way"? Oh, a little paternalistic pity? Heh. So I should change my opinion to remove the pity you have for me.  Doesn't work on me.


----------



## DaytoDay

> I have to consciously put on my "game face" and be mentally prepared for going into any kind of government office where you are needing a permit, license, or something. These are places that attract just these kinds of personalities and it takes focus not to fall into their manipulative plays.


Yeah, I'm not interested in being this way. Sounds rather jaded. I think some of the best set-downs I've ever seen were by little old ladies that never dropped the smile from their eyes. I'd rather be that person, the person they least expect to be onto them.


----------



## deejov

A little more blunt, then Mr. Wiser.

What you read in a book is not my life. I truly do appreciate your warnings. I have formed my own opinions about my own situation, and the respectful thing to do is agree to disagree.

So, I'm sorry you feel that way. Meaning I respect your right to believe what you read, and you can have an opinion that I am wrong.

It is your opinion. It is not the truth for my life.

I'm sorry you feel that way, as you do not seem to be able to accept that others have differing opinions. That's hard to do on a public forum. 

But that's what most wars are about. Who's opinion on what book is right or wrong. I'm not fighting a war, though. I'm living my life.


----------



## Katiebird

deejov said:


> I figured out vacations last year.
> Making decisions makes one responsible.
> One could be blamed if it doesn't go right.
> 
> A deep part of a PA trait is the puppet syndrome.
> A victim blames everyone else.
> Even minor decisions about what to do cause anxiety.
> So they tend to deflect ALL decisions, big or small.
> 
> In a way, they are trying to avoid being wrong and having to take blame. "If I don't do anything, I can't get blamed for it later".


:iagree: I have asked him to participate in vacation planning and other financial decisions and he says he will but never happens. 



diwali123 said:


> How long were you married before he changed?


As I said, there were hints before, but at about 8 months after we were married, I realized that there was something really wrong. However, I was sure I could "fix" it. 

He is not a monster and I guess if I didn't love him I would not have put up with this stuff for so long. At this stage in the game, life is what it is. I am aware of this behavior and generally can either avoid it or ignore it. Yes it gets to me and I do get hurt and angry. At some point in the future, I can see that I might try to find another little condo or something close to my kids so that I can spend some time on my own. He can come too as long as he behaves


----------



## Sabbby

deejov said:


> Slow Creek, that about sums up my life too.
> 
> I quit being the victim. I'm not willing to run screaming for the hills, pinning everything on him and his personality disorder. I own my part in it.
> 
> Our relationship is also sexless, although there is non-sexual intimacy. I am not staying either. Same reasons. I'm tired of fake. I want more. Peace.


SAY IT AGAIN DEEJOV :smthumbup:


----------



## Sabbby

Instead of accepting the fact there are plenty of people in the world without a conscience. It varies on a scale of course from garden variety narcissists all the way up to depraved serial killer rapists/cannibals.

Scary thought, but so true. And just think my PA could have been any of those things and I was living with him clueless as to the extent of the danger I could have been in trying to make a relationship out of an illness.


----------



## diwali123

Trying to make a relationship out of an illness...thats it exactly.


----------



## northernlights

To me, the intent of the PA means everything. It's the difference between dysfunctional and psychopathic. It's one thing I'm really hung up on with my H--_why _did he do what he did? When I was very sleep deprived, and he woke me up in the mornings instead of watching the kids so I could catch up at least a little, was he being too self-absorbed to understand what I needed, or was he trying to hurt me.

I know I've gone on and on about this, but I didn't sleep through the night for _years_. My younger daughter would wake up 10 times per night. Maybe 20. Having a newborn was a cakewalk compared to what I went through. I came very, very close to having a nervous breakdown. And my H just watched, and refused to help. Not just refused to help--actually woke me up in the mornings. Repeatedly.

I said in MC that I needed to know if he was some kind of psychopath or just clueless. The MC said she wasn't sure. She didn't think he was a psychopath, but she wasn't sure. H said nothing. I think he's forgotten this is an issue for me. Just wants to pretend none of it ever happened.

Sigh... I can't. But, anyway, I'm interested in reading everyone's opinions of intent. I'm sure it varies from person to person, and some PAs are just too narcissistic to think of other people, while some actually enjoy inflicting pain. I just wish I could know which kind my H is.


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## diwali123

I believe my ex enjoyed inflicting pain, I think he enjoyed watching me suffer. Not in a gleeful way, but in a "you wronged me so you deserve this" way. 
My sleep dep wasn't as severe but there were times I told him I felt like I was on the verge of dying or losing my mind and he would get mad at me. 
For him, once someone gets in the category of "you aren't what I want you to be", all morality goes out the window. 
I think he truly believed that I deserved to be punished for my "wrong doings".


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## Sabbby

Definitely intensional, in my opinion. You may not know why you are being punished, but there is always a reason. Sometimes they enjoy it and sometimes it stings them just as much as it does us. But to them, it's worth the sacrifice for vengeance. I know they like eating and sex etc. just like everyone else, however, if not having those things makes us suffer for something they perceive as wrong, it is worth it to them. Hence repeating the cycle of misery.


----------



## deejov

northernlights said:


> To me, the intent of the PA means everything. It's the difference between dysfunctional and psychopathic. It's one thing I'm really hung up on with my H--_why _did he do what he did? When I was very sleep deprived, and he woke me up in the mornings instead of watching the kids so I could catch up at least a little, was he being too self-absorbed to understand what I needed, or was he trying to hurt me.
> 
> I know I've gone on and on about this, but I didn't sleep through the night for _years_. My younger daughter would wake up 10 times per night. Maybe 20. Having a newborn was a cakewalk compared to what I went through. I came very, very close to having a nervous breakdown. And my H just watched, and refused to help. Not just refused to help--actually woke me up in the mornings. Repeatedly.
> 
> I said in MC that I needed to know if he was some kind of psychopath or just clueless. The MC said she wasn't sure. She didn't think he was a psychopath, but she wasn't sure. H said nothing. I think he's forgotten this is an issue for me. Just wants to pretend none of it ever happened.
> 
> Sigh... I can't. But, anyway, I'm interested in reading everyone's opinions of intent. I'm sure it varies from person to person, and some PAs are just too narcissistic to think of other people, while some actually enjoy inflicting pain. I just wish I could know which kind my H is.


When he would wake you up in the mornings... was that because he was leaving for work? Or wanted breakfast? I'm asking because my H used to have a similar problem about being the only one "awake" and would wake me up too. With some stupid excuse. Like he thought I had to take my insulin at 6 am, so he thought I should not sleep in. 

I found out later, it was because he was feeling aroused. But since he poked the bear... he changed his mind. Oops. Should not have done that!


----------



## northernlights

deejov said:


> When he would wake you up in the mornings... was that because he was leaving for work? Or wanted breakfast?


No, he works from home. This happened most over summer vacation, when we didn't have to be anywhere. So it's not even like I was asking him to get the girls ready for school on his own. When I asked, he said, "well you can't sleep all day." It was maybe 8 am. Maybe 7:30. The little one had only settled down for the night at 4 am.


----------



## Sabbby

HELP! My ex finally called, just for the rest of his things. Does anyone have any suggestions on how to avoid the imminent feeling of rejection I am facing when he gets his things and walks away without as much as asking me how I have been doing. It was easy breaking up when he didnt come home, not having to face him. This will be the first time hearing or seeing him in 3 weeks???


----------



## DaytoDay

This is on you. Why are you feeling rejected, if his behavior towards you was unacceptable? He did you a favor, by putting a stop to something that you couldn't do yourself.

Can you pack up his things and put them on the porch and not interact with him? Can you have someone else there with you to support you and at least give you a distraction? They can also prevent you from doing something you might regret later.


----------



## Wiserforit

deejov said:


> So, I'm sorry you feel that way. Meaning I respect your right to believe what you read, and you can have an opinion that I am wrong.


That makes no sense. Why would you be "sorry" when you say that you respect my opinion? There isn't anything to be sorry about except to use the term pejoratively and it is a great discussion point because passive-aggressives use this term a lot, and in just that way. 

It never means what they front superficially, like "sorry that you are so stupid" - instead of an apology it is just another insult. But the form you are using it in is the put-down where you are pitied for your shortcomings. 

The third form they use it in is a pre-denial term. For example "sorry, but [followed by insult]". They aren't sorry at all for the insult they are about to hurl, they actually live for just exactly that sort of insult. 

A more specific kind of play in this category is to say "I don't mean to be rude, [followed by rude statement] or "Not to be negative [followed by negative statement]. 

You learn to watch for this because they're actually telling you exactly what they are up to by denying it before it even happens. One of the really important ones is "To be perfectly honest..." or "Honestly I don't know" etc. You know a lie is coming right on the heels of that. 



> I'm sorry you feel that way, as you do not seem to be able to accept that others have differing opinions. That's hard to do on a public forum.


So odd when I just referenced the publications that utilize the "low self esteem" argument, and where it stems from, which is Freudian-based. 

Disagreeing with them does not mean I fail to accept they exist. Don't argue with me at the same time you are saying I am a bad person for arguing. 

It is worth pointing out though that you don't analyze or defend logicaly the "low self esteem" argument beyond the fact your husband says that is why he does it. Beyond that, you are using emotional warfare where I am a "bad person" for disagreeing with you, my tone is wrong, I suffer from this defect of not being able to see other people's opinions: all stuff you learned by example from passive aggressives. 



> I'm not fighting a war, though. I'm living my life.


My eyes are watching you disagree with me vehemently and with denigration common to passive-aggressives. It isn't a big deal, but wonderful for its illustrative value. They are often denying the very thing they are doing while in the middle of doing it: saying you are not arguing with me while arguing with me. 

With that, hey I am happy to leave it alone now with you. It turned out to be a useful exchange for other reasons.


----------



## Wiserforit

northernlights said:


> To me, the intent of the PA means everything. It's the difference between dysfunctional and psychopathic. It's one thing I'm really hung up on with my H--_why _did he do what he did? When I was very sleep deprived, and he woke me up in the mornings instead of watching the kids so I could catch up at least a little, was he being too self-absorbed to understand what I needed, or was he trying to hurt me.


This is so simple. Just reverse the roles.

If your husband told you that he needed to sleep in tomorrow, you'd go outside the bedroom window next morning and start up a chain saw or a jack-hammer that no living person could possibly sleep through?

Of course you wouldn't. You would tip-toe around and keep the kids really quiet. 

One thing that might be useful here is that these kinds of personalities believe their own rationalizations and can compartmentalize their thinking. It is _disordered thinking_. So you can't empathize with it any more than you can understand how an alligator's brain is wired.


----------



## Wiserforit

Sabbby said:


> And like you all, wanted to fix him, until one day I woke up so exhausted feeling more sorry for me. All my effort and patience was invane like the therapist told us the first year we were together, but I was deteremined because I could see the POTENTIAL


The fatal danger here is that these personalities are relentlessly manipulative, and are responding deceptively to everything you do.

They are more than happy to lead you down blind alleys, fake like something totally irrelevant is improving the relationship, do just enough to convince you to stay a little longer...

I couldn't believe that I let seven years slip by me with completely fraudulent gaming on her part. 

The first counselor she convinced me she needed to see alone. I realize now she just lied to the counselor and lied to me. The second one I insisted on being there, but she convinced me that she needed to go first and make sure she was "comfortable" with her.

I demanded after three months of weekly meetings to accompany her, despite her insisting the counselor did not want me there. It was the worst experience of my life. They were ready for me, prepared to run with the script my wife had completely fabricated, that she was there for "depression" and had led the counselor to "discover" that my wife's depression was due to my manipulative and conrtolling nature.

I could not figure out what was going on. They were doing this insideous "intervention" with me. Hoping to lead me to the self-discovery of how abusive I was, only the things they were saying were totally bizarre and untrue. I had not had sex with her for over six months because I couldn't stand having sex with her. But the storyline was her being my sex slave. :scratchhead:

I was not allowed to speak other than to answer questions that were baffling to me, and I was not allowed to use a whole library of words like "fact". There are no "facts". I was not allowed substitute words for the words I was using. Finally in frustration I asked the counselor WTF was going on - it didn't seem like marriage counseling to me. Oh no, my wife wasn't there for marriage counseling. It is her depression, over the way you are treating her. What?!

Did she bother to tell you she was raped every day by her father, the pedophile, who then went on to perpatrate who knows what with little girls' soccer, church groups and etc. with my wife's connivance? Not a word. Please ask her if this is true! She refused to ask my wife. Would not even look at her. 

This is how thoroughly manipulated even a professional counselor can be by one of these monsters. That was the moment it was over for me with that wife. She was so smug, looking at me with this evil gleam in her eye and I am quite sure I looked desperate, confused, and in utter anguish over what was going on. 

I had walked in thinking "Thank God there is going to be an impartial person here to force her to allow me to speak, to call her on the manipulative tactics, etc." and instead it was an ambush like I had never seen.


----------



## DaytoDay

Disordered doesn't mean "evil" or "malicious." Like actions of someone that is autistic.


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## diwali123

SlowCreek.NoPaddle said:


> Disordered doesn't mean "evil" or "malicious." Like actions of someone that is autistic.


It doesn't have to. I think in some cases it is though. 
You can say that a serial killer isn't evil because they have a mental illness, that they were born without a conscience...but isn't that the exact definition of evil?


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## DaytoDay

There was a time when I would have said "yes." Not so much anymore. Describing someone as "evil" sort of alleviates your responsibility for treating them humanely. Yet even war has rules for how soldiers are allowed to treat captured "enemies," whereas prior to capture, the soldiers would have killed them. The difference is that while free, the enemy was dangerous; in captivity, not so much.

So whether someone is dangerous because they were born without a conscience, or dangerous because they were born violently autistic, or dangerous because they're on the other side of the war, doesn't mean you don't have a right to treat them in a manner that ensures your own personal safety. I don't see the value in a label, especially something as personally biased as "evil." Some people claim that homosexuals are evil (not starting a debate on this please.) Obviously homosexuals don't think so, so who gets to decide?

I will agree that they (PA's) are dangerous, and the best thing you can do with someone that will likely never be jailed for his/her passive-aggressive behavior is to protect yourself.

But I'll leave the "evil" label for Satan.


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## diwali123

I shouldn't use that word, I mean it in a completely non religious way. As in someone who is purposely causing suffering and trying to destroy other people on purpose with no regret.


----------



## northernlights

Wiserforit said:


> One thing that might be useful here is that these kinds of personalities believe their own rationalizations and can compartmentalize their thinking. It is _disordered thinking_. So you can't empathize with it any more than you can understand how an alligator's brain is wired.


This is something I keep coming back to and just need to accept. There's no need for me to waste my time, spinning my wheels trying to figure out _why _he treated me badly. I just need to figure out what I want to do about it. Which, I am.


----------



## Fledgling

I have been very hesitant to weigh in here because I too live with a PA spouse. What I am discovering is that H is PA, narcissistic, and manipulative but much of my depression involves not being allowed to be constructively angry. Sure, I vent and rage and even get PA myself, but none of it is constructive or helps me move forward regardless of what H does. And isn't that how you stay long term with a PA spouse? Detachment? I am reading Dance of Anger right now and am realizing that many of his manipulations work because of preconceived notions I have of myself! My therapist once asked me why everything came back to H. Even though he was a acting poorly he had a lot to work with! Not because he was right but because I am afraid that I am proving him right!

As to intent, most PAs are not aware of what they are doing. It wouldn't jive with who they think they are or who they want to be. It is a learned trait that is fed into by codependence. The reality here is that the codependent has MORE power in the relationship even though they feel they have less. Why? Because they are aware of the imbalance in a way that the PA spouse is not. If the CoDependent can successfully separate themselves it will either save the marriage or put the PA spouse in the position to end the marriage instead.

I confess that I have not successfully separated myself from my H emotionally but it is a work in progress. He treats me no better or worse than he has in years. He just is who he is. Sometimes it feels worse than it used to but I have to be realistic that that is often only a perception based on factors outside my, or his, control.


----------



## diwali123

How does it put the PA in a position to end it?


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## Fledgling

diwali123 said:


> How does it put the PA in a position to end it?


We are discussing how to stay in a long term PA relationship. If the CoD person stays but detaches the PA will react by either changing his/her ways because they don't work anymore (showing that the spouse was PA due to learned behavior) or will divorce to find another CoD. Once you detach you are no longer CoD enough for the PA disordered to manipulate you.


----------



## diwali123

That didn't happen in my case, and I have seen a lot of cases where the PA person just lives like a zombie in the marriage and makes no move to change or end it. 
For them to end it would mean taking direct action, something they hate.


----------



## deejov

I'm glad you posted, Fledgling.

The 2nd step of detachment is regaining one's self confidence and self esteem. Once your eyes are opened in that regard, things look a whole lot different. 

A PA would likely divorce, if their life was made so uncomfortable that their needs were not being met, at all.

They do a great job of making sure their happiness is always cared for. Most likely I would think they would find a new partner and divorce as a result. By that I mean their victim stories eventually draw in someone new. It takes care of itself. 

And the same theory applies.... if you are feeling more confident, secure, and happy, that does not go un-noticed. 

Peace.


----------



## bailingout

Welcome Fledgling, I too am glad you're posting. To the rest of the group, sorry I've been MIA, been busy but reading as much as I can.




Fledgling said:


> I have been very hesitant to weigh in here because I too live with a PA spouse. What I am discovering is that H is PA, narcissistic, and manipulative but much of my depression involves not being allowed to be constructively angry. Sure, I vent and rage and even get PA myself, but none of it is constructive or helps me move forward regardless of what H does. And isn't that how you stay long term with a PA spouse? Detachment? I am reading Dance of Anger right now and am realizing that *many of his manipulations work because of preconceived notions I have of myself! * My therapist once asked me why everything came back to H. Even though he was a acting poorly he had a lot to work with! *Not because he was right but because I am afraid that I am proving him right!*
> 
> If you don't mind, can you elaborate or possibly give an example of what you're talking about above in bold? I'm having a hard time wrapping my brain around those 2 statements. :scratchhead:
> 
> 
> As to intent, most PAs are not aware of what they are doing. At this point, I agree but only to a limited extent. It wouldn't jive with who they think they are or who they want to be. It is a learned trait that is fed into by codependence. The reality here is that the codependent has MORE power in the relationship even though they feel they have less. I am beginning to agree with this more and more, thanks for pointing it out. Why? Because they are aware of the imbalance in a way that the PA spouse is not. If the CoDependent can successfully separate themselves it will either save the marriage or put the PA spouse in the position to end the marriage instead.
> 
> I confess that I have not successfully separated myself from my H emotionally but it is a work in progress. He treats me no better or worse than he has in years. He just is who he is. Sometimes it feels worse than it used to but I have to be realistic that that is often only a perception based on factors outside my, or his, control.





Fledgling said:


> We are discussing how to stay in a long term PA relationship. *If the CoD person stays but detaches the PA will react by either changing his/her ways because they don't work anymore (showing that the spouse was PA due to learned behavior) or will divorce to find another CoD.* Once you detach you are no longer CoD enough for the PA disordered to manipulate you.


I'd bet we all wish we had a crystal ball for this one eh? 



diwali123 said:


> That didn't happen in my case, and I have seen a lot of cases where the PA person just lives like a zombie in the marriage and makes no move to change or end it.
> For them to end it would mean taking direct action, something they hate.


In the other cases you've seen...I wonder if the CoD person wasn't able to TOTALLY break free from being CoD? If they had, and the relationship didn't improve enough to meet some of their needs, I would think the no longer CoD person would end it eventually. No? I think I would. I couldn't imagine staying after doing that much work only to realize I still wasn't getting anything from it. IDK.



deejov said:


> The 2nd step of detachment is regaining one's self confidence and self esteem. Once your eyes are opened in that regard, things look a whole lot different.
> 
> A PA would likely divorce, if their life was made so uncomfortable that their needs were not being met, at all.
> 
> They do a great job of making sure their happiness is always cared for. Most likely I would think they would find a new partner and divorce as a result. By that I mean their victim stories eventually draw in someone new. It takes care of itself.
> 
> And the same theory applies.... if you are feeling more confident, secure, and happy, that does not go un-noticed.
> 
> Peace.


Hmmm. Tricky.


----------



## pink_lady

Fledgling said:


> As to intent, most PAs are not aware of what they are doing. It wouldn't jive with who they think they are or who they want to be. It is a learned trait that is fed into by co-dependence.
> 
> The reality here is that the co-dependent has MORE power in the relationship even though they feel they have less. Why? Because they are aware of the imbalance in a way that the PA spouse is not.


I agree that they have a false persona they try to maintain, but I don't agree that the P-A is just a poor soul who 'doesn't know what he is doing' or 'can't help but act this way because of his childhood'. Making excuses for someone who is mistreating you is relieving them of responsibility for their own behavior.

A few times I caught very creepy and telling- yet quickly covered- flashes in my H that yes, he knew JUST what he was doing. It was _deliberate_. Though of course, he would deny doing anything until the bitter end, no matter what kind of evidence he was confronted with.

They actively cultivate the imbalance. They want to keep the spouse off balance- it's how they are able to tell themselves they are in control.

It's very hard to accept that someone who is supposed to love you is hurting you on purpose.


----------



## diwali123

I think that you start off feeling sorry for them, believing its their child hood. They don't really mean it. 
You start detaching and challenging their behavior. You go through cycles where they stop doing it and then go back to their real selves. 
And after enough cycles, you finally realize, this is deliberate. 
I didn't want to believe it when I first learned about PA. I learned that you go 13 cycles before you leave and I didn't believe it.


----------



## deejov

diwali123 said:


> I think that you start off feeling sorry for them, believing its their child hood. They don't really mean it.
> You start detaching and challenging their behavior. You go through cycles where they stop doing it and then go back to their real selves.
> And after enough cycles, you finally realize, this is deliberate.
> I didn't want to believe it when I first learned about PA. I learned that you go 13 cycles before you leave and I didn't believe it.


I never felt sorry for my H. I never got pity for my past, my lot in life. "fix it, get over it, suck it up". I've always expected him to do the same.

Maybe I project too much... but being CoD is a result of many of the same things that maybe cause a person to be PA. Past. Experiences. What we learned \ didn't learn.

I certainly wasn't delibertaley CoD. Just uneducated in how to be a real grown up. Maybe I'm just still CoD LOL. Dunno.
But I'm expected to manage my tendencies to be CoD for the rest of my life. I'm not cured. Just more aware of the pitfalls.

And it works for me to NOT be that way. So of course I'm going to pick the path that keeps me happy. 

Being PA means your happiness always comes first. See the desire, as a human being? Be happy. That's important. 

I thought serving the PA made me happy. I thought my therapist was nuts. It's not real happiness. That's why your soul is edgy. WTF? I had no idea there was real peace, for me.


----------



## pink_lady

diwali123 said:


> That didn't happen in my case, and I have seen a lot of cases where the PA person just lives like a zombie in the marriage and makes no move to change or end it.
> For them to end it would mean taking direct action, something they hate.


Mine didn't make a move to end it, but he did become completely cold and matter of fact and tell me "I'll never change so there is no point in dragging this out" once I told him I knew what he was doing and that he was doing it on purpose. The jig was up. That was that. He had to find someone else to run his games on.


----------



## deejov

Pink,
I can even understand this.... the realisation they are playing games.

I look at my own life this way. I had some shet happen. I got therapy to get over the trauma. Nobody sat me down and said... "this is how you handle relationships, be vulnerable with boundaries". So I somehow came up with being CoD, and a real shrew. I felt bad all the time about my actions. But just figured since I was damaged goods and not worthy of love anyways, I was getting what I deserved.

I don't believe my H or any other PA person sat down and decided how to be PA. I think my H has been focused on "just be happy" (that's all his family ever said to him, since he had cancer for 10 years as a kid... just be happy. do whatever makes you happy.).
Then, around 25, well I guess you aren't going to die. Go live your life. Be an adult. 

I don't think he sat down and made a decision. 
This is normal behavior. I'm not going to do that. 
I am going to be cruel, malicious, and PA.

He did what he knew how. Just like I did. Whatever WORKED to get to his goal. 

When "normal" is finally pointed out, well that just highlights the fact one is maybe crazy. Who would love a crazy person? No one. 

I can totally relate to it. At age 40, I had a counsellor tell me I'm whacked, dysfunctional, and need to re-think my whole personality. Good grief. She was right. 

Problem is.. I have had the thoughts of no, I don't need to change. I just need to find a better fit for me. I didn't "MAKE" myself this way. Life did. Who says what normal is?

Slowly, it become not about being normal, and acting a certain way to have a relationship, but it all came back to finding inner happiness and my purpose in life. 

Purpose in life is something I see my H missing. Big time. There is no motivation for him to learn normal. Why? He's crazy. No one can love him. He's screwed up. He has a personality disorder. 

Which all comes back to self esteem again. Sigh.


----------



## bailingout

deejov said:


> Pink,
> I can even understand this.... the realisation they are playing games.
> 
> I look at my own life this way. I had some shet happen. I got therapy to get over the trauma. Nobody sat me down and said... "this is how you handle relationships, be vulnerable with boundaries". So I somehow came up with being CoD, and a real shrew. I felt bad all the time about my actions. *But just figured since I was damaged goods and not worthy of love anyways, I was getting what I deserved.*
> Do you think this contributed to why you 2 were together to begin with? Like-that maybe he knew this.
> 
> I don't believe my H or any other PA person sat down and decided how to be PA. I think my H has been focused on "just be happy" (that's all his family ever said to him, since he had cancer for 10 years as a kid... just be happy. do whatever makes you happy.).
> Then, around 25, well I guess you aren't going to die. Go live your life. Be an adult.
> 
> I don't think he sat down and made a decision.
> This is normal behavior. I'm not going to do that.
> I am going to be cruel, malicious, and PA.
> 
> He did what he knew how. Just like I did. Whatever WORKED to get to his goal.
> 
> When "normal" is finally pointed out, well that just highlights the fact one is maybe crazy. Who would love a crazy person? No one.
> 
> I can totally relate to it. *At age 40, I had a counsellor tell me I'm whacked, dysfunctional, and need to re-think my whole personality. Good grief. She was right.*
> She was right about what? Are you saying you have now realized that you were also wacked & dysfunctional? Just asking as this is how I feel also, about myself in some ways.
> 
> Problem is.. I have *had* the thoughts of no, I don't need to change. I just need to find a better fit for me. I didn't "MAKE" myself this way. Life did. Who says what normal is?
> Had...as in past tense, Are you saying that you now believe otherwise?? In that, you did need to change? That's kind of where I'm at.
> 
> I believe everyones normal is individual, it's normal for them as it's what they learned to begin with, IMO.
> 
> Slowly, it become not about being normal, and acting a certain way to have a relationship, but it all came back to finding inner happiness and my purpose in life.
> :iagree:
> 
> Purpose in life is something I see my H missing. Big time. There is no motivation for him to learn normal. Why? He's crazy. No one can love him. He's screwed up. He has a personality disorder.
> Just wondering if you now think that maybe you had a personality disorder also?
> 
> Which all comes back to self esteem again. Sigh.


Thanks to all for their comments. I enjoy this thread, as painful as it may be.


----------



## deejov

Do you think this contributed to why you 2 were together to begin with? Like-that maybe he knew this.
Maybe not he knew this... but it's WHY we fit so well together. I was naturally just perfectly a match. I enabled his behavior. Without being aware of it. The relationship wasn't a struggle for him. He could be himself (PA) and happily enabled it. 

She was right about what? Are you saying you have now realized that you were also wacked & dysfunctional? Just asking as this is how I feel also, about myself in some ways.
I was dysfunctional. I had low self esteem. I would give, give to others. Maybe then they would love me. I was afraid to stand up for myself. What if he left me? I would all ALONE. Oh gosh. 

Just wondering if you now think that maybe you had a personality disorder also? 
Yes. I'm CoD, in all aspects of my life. Work. My son. My family. 

Had...as in past tense, Are you saying that you now believe otherwise?? In that, you did need to change? That's kind of where I'm at.Yes. I realised I was in charge of my life, and I took it back. I needed to change. I needed to stop trying to control everyone else, and find my OWN happiness. Stop judging everyone, and myself. Find my true self. And my purpose in life. I did. I found my ability to choose. And then the courage to take action. It's the best thing I ever did. I can't make someone act a certain way. But I can make it so it doesn't lower my self esteem. I may have CoD tendencies, but my self esteem is no longer 100% dependent on the actions of others.


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## pink_lady

I think that really healthy people realize early on that there is something amiss if they date a P-A, narcissist, or other disordered person. The type of person who ends up in a long-term relationship with one is usually codependent. We see signs but we rug sweep them. And we think we can help this person. And we don't think we're good enough to date someone who really has their sh!t together.


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## diwali123

I think you are so right. I was so messed up when I met my ex. 
I have a link to my story if anyone is interested but long story short I was completely alone, in poverty after college and just ended a LTR that had lasted four years. 
My father was an abusive narcissist and my mom was the daughter of an alcoholic. 
I had been in counseling since I was 16 off and on. 
I have discussed this with a few counselors and from what I gather, since he was still in college at the time, he really was happy and care free. He had no real adult responsibility. 
We lived together and were happy. Then he went into the Peace Corps, another long story. He stayed for four months. I think his failure to stay for two years really changed him in a deep way. 

And then we got engaged and he started working a real job full time. That is when he really started being PA and angry. 

I have heard that the more responsibility a PA person has, the worse they get. 

In all this time I was in therapy for my own issues. It seemed like the stronger I got, the more peaceful I was, the more he tried to bring me down. 

So I put up with him because I felt like I was really messed up too.


----------



## VeggieMom

Hi again,

I had to take a break with working, family, and my own personal needs. There is no way I can catch up to this thread now but I'm jumping back in briefly to read the last few pages.



> We are discussing how to stay in a long term PA relationship. If the CoD person stays but detaches the PA will react by either changing his/her ways because they don't work anymore (showing that the spouse was PA due to learned behavior) or will divorce to find another CoD. Once you detach you are no longer CoD enough for the PA disordered to manipulate you.


I have found this to be very true since I made my first post and decided that things needed to change. After The Big Talk H was at first walking on eggshells around me and trying to watch himself, while I was trying very hard to stay detached. After awhile I think he realized he missed me. We did have some good times here and there but I was being so neutral out of fear that I would again emotionally bank on him returning the niceness, or fear that he would flip it around in a bad way. He started to miss me. 

So he's at the end of his week off work to do stuff around the house. He has had a few bad days (he has a newly dx health problem that makes him have low blood sugar- when he tells me he's feeling shaky and needs to eat, his mood improves after). He's telling me now when he's upset rather than doing the cold shoulder thing. 

Once engaged in conversation about what he's upset about he is still using the dysfunctional conversation tactics if things are pointed out that might be his fault or things he needs to improve upon in the situation. But when I call him on it he is starting to actually admit he did deflect or flip the blame after I point it out, and I am being really good about trying to stick to the topic. I will ask him, "Do you want to solve this, or do you want to talk about these other 5 things you just brought up? I have about 10 more minutes to talk." 

So while things are still a struggle, they are getting a lot better. He is being honest with himself more, which I appreciate. And I am also working on the habits I developed, some of which were not very nice, in response to his treatment of me. 

I also found a church that seems to suit my needs. I have reconnected with one of my friends that I dropped out due to depression a couple of years ago and we saw a movie together. 

H bought me flowers out of the blue, which never happens. He is today finishing painting the bathroom today. He finished a project for one of the kids two days ago that was involved. She had told him earlier in the week that he never kept his promises, but he did this time. Really poured himself into it, too. 

I need to keep those healthy boundaries up but also give him room to change because it does sound like he's trying to. At the same time he will not get counseling, and his spiritual life is not great so it's hard for him to diffuse himself or find his center. I am not talking about religion-- you don't necessarily need religion to center yourself but he has nothing bigger than himself to mediate upon in moment of focus, which I think is important for everyone.

There is no easy fix here. I may never have the ideal marriage I dreamed of when I met him and fell in love. For now it's tolerable and we are functioning somewhat again, and I am finding a lot of happiness outside in the rest of my life, too. I came to realize how co-dependent I became on him because of my low concept of myself. That is improving and I think he respects me more because of it, too, and it's changing his behavior towards me.

While I don't excuse the behavior, I do feel sorry for him that he has that much unhappiness that he has to be so miserable to himself and to those who he is supposed to love. I don't have to mother him, but I can encourage him in the right direction, even as I take care of my own feelings and put myself first.


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## diwali123

Good for you veggie mom!


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## deejov

Yesterday I had the pleasure of spending a few hours at the MIL's house. She was at her finest. She is PA beyond definition, with a bunch of co-dependency mixed in. I hate to sit and analyze people, but I saw it with both eyes last night. Wow. 

She's alone, has been for years. But her life is her kids. Giving them money, sabatoging their relationships so they stay true to her, and yet when her kids are with her, she is hell bent on being nagging, controlling, won't even sit down and visit. Must fuss around and be miserable, telling them what they "should" do. They roll their eyes when she isn't looking, and complain behind her back.

But not one of them would EVER say a word to her about it. Because her mother.. their grandmother... would have smacked them. It's disprectful. Grandma lived with them, and raised them. Free live in babysitter. Mom got married and divorced 3 times. Grandma helped out. 

It totally explains a lot. Wow. 

It's really weird how I didn't see ALL of it before. Always knew there was some issues there. 

I wont be stepping foot around her again.


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## bailingout

Oh yes, the MIL. Just lovely aren't they? I'd guess you can see where your H gets his fabulous qualities from eh?  

I'm hoping to avoid mine until Christmas time rolls around.


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## pink_lady

Ha, my STBX MIL is a narcissist. Classic. No one else talks when she's around. Other people are just the audience for her non-stop monologue. She's made sure her kids stayed close and never became autonomous so she could stay superior to them and in control- bought them both houses to live in.

My mother came to visit and we took her to the in-laws house so she could meet them before the wedding. Both of them went on at great length about themselves. Neither asked her one question, about anything.

At first I couldn't figure out why his parents did absolutely nothing for our wedding though they are evidently multi-millionaires- not even a card. Now I realize it was because we decided on a destination wedding without asking her first. 

A few weeks after we got back they took us out for dinner to celebrate - to Ruth Chris steak house. We are both ethical vegans 

I LOVE the fact that I never need to see any of those people ever again!


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## pink_lady

deejov said:


> She's alone, has been for years. But her life is her kids. Giving them money, sabatoging their relationships so they stay true to her, and yet when her kids are with her, she is hell bent on being nagging, controlling, won't even sit down and visit. Must fuss around and be miserable, telling them what they "should" do.


Yep, Tony Soprano's mom


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## deejov

OH, she means well. She really does. She would do anything for her kids, and she has. 

She has an especially hard time with the H. He had leukemia 3 times from age 3 - 13. I cannot even imagine the pain she went thru, as his mom. I used to have admiration for that. And we even talked about how hard it was for her when we got married. She admits it is hard to let him go. Yeah, yeah. 

But really I was sticking up for my H when I told her off. She puts him in the position. If he mentions his computer is broken, wanted to buy something for his Jeep, she OFFERS to pay for it. Here. Take some money. 

She feels this is between the two of us. She offered to give him the money. He did not ask. Yup, I know. So now it's his fault if he takes it. Choose between making your mom happy and being a man and sticking up for your marriage, Good grief. His solution has been to take the money and lie to me about it, cover it up. Try to keep everyone happy. No wonder he's depressed and has anxiety.


Anyways, it struck me how I did not see it this way before. 

Blind, or what? LOL.


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## bailingout

Hmmmm....interesting how deejov, PL & myself all indicate our MILs resemble PAs, CoDs, and Narcs. 

I wonder if that contributed to our Hs behavior? 

I do get that our Hs are adult, but I doubt being raised by these women allowed them to actually develop into adults. :scratchhead:

I wonder who else on this thread will chime in with the same opinion?

Guess who is full of sarcasm today? Me me me- compliments of interaction with said MIL today. The good news is that I pissed her off enough today that she won't be bothering me for a while.


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## Quant

My wife is aggressive-aggressive.


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## bailingout

Well at least you have one who actually means well. 

Mine views her children as an extension of herself therefore expects them to serve her in all ways. They all stay as far away as possible and only visit when the guilt becomes overwhelming or for holidays to put on the act of a loving family. 

SIL actually didn't tell them about a get together she hosted for Fathers Day last year. She only invited us, she didn't want to deal with her own parents or brother. 

The oddest part is that H avoids her cuz he doesn't like being around her but has no clue that he shares the same manipulative PA behavior. or that his upbringing had anythIng to do w how he is as an adult. Totally clueless & as he was raised in her environment cannot recognize it cuz it's his normal. 

It's maddening.


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## deejov

It is.. what it is. Cannot be changed. I try to deal with it the best I can. I didn't marry her... so I don't really have the right to say much about her. And she ain't my mother!

I take this hard because her and I her friends, co-workers. Not close friends... but she was like a mother to me, in some ways. I knew her for 10 years before I dated her son. You would think I would have known! 

I kinda accepter her quirkiness. But she turned into nasty momma bear when we got married. That I take personally. 

I think I am seeing this just now because I've gotten bit by the momma bear bug myself this past year, when my 22 yr old son needed a lot of help. I feel fiercely protective of him now, and dont' always trust my judgements. I'm aware I could do things to "help" him that would be un-helpful in the long run. So I monitor myself. Ask a safe friend. 

She's like my warning label. Don't be that ! LOL !


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## northernlights

My MIL is a piece of work. Definitely PA and somewhat narcissistic. You can't have a real conversation with her, you can only take turns speaking, if that makes sense. Mostly you just have to listen to her recount the life stories of total strangers she met on the plane and you'll never meet. It's maddening.

My FIL was severely alcoholic for H's whole childhood, and he was the withdrawn/passed out type. Totally emotionally absent. By the time he quit drinking he had dementia; now it's severe. I don't think H even knows very much about him. It's very sad.

Gah, it's why I married him, because he had such a ****ty family life and I wanted to fix that for him. What a stupid reason to marry someone. I can't believe I eff'ed up that decision so badly.


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## deejov

Northern,
To me, what you did seemed kindly, with good intentions. In a lot of cases, it's true. They married, have kids, and a real family. I know a few people like that. 

I'm going to go ahead and think that you did give your H a real family.


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## northernlights

Thank you Deejov. That was very kind of you to say.


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## diwali123

I used to think "wow, his whole family is crazy and he's the normal one! Must be luck or a genetic mutation."

As Chris Titus says, if you think your SO is the sane one in a family of crazy, you are wrong. They are just a ticking time bomb waiting to go off. 

I would say the exception is people who are actively in counseling and working on their issues. 

That's why I was so glad that my current h has a somewhat normal family and his parents are still married and seem happy. 

My ex's family could keep Jerry Springer busy for a year. No joke.


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## bailingout

So a recent incident with MIL got me thinking.

Does it seem that the PA in your life lacks basic common sense at times also?

I know that we all think differently based on our experiences/beliefs/etc and I get that we are all individuals but I find it hard to swallow that it could be so drastically different. 

Many times I find myself shaking my head and thinking....are you serious and do you actually think I'm going believe you?

I guess I wonder how much of it is an act and how much of it can be related to other things, ie PA, immaturity, etc. 

Just wondering what this group thinks about it.


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## diwali123

Oh yes. I often thought he must be from a different planet. He literally didn't know how to rent a movie. Like just take it up there! He wouldn't use our debit cards at the drive through until I showed him it would work. 
Twice he shoved Q tip in his ear and jammed wax so far in he had to go to the dr and have his ear flushed out. He was dizzy and in pain.


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## SaltInWound

Has anyone ever caught their PA spouse so off guard that they were speechless (not the silent treatment) and you could see the vulnerability in their eyes as if they were a frightened child? I have only experienced that one time. I think it only happened because I pulled him out of a deep sleep.


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## pink_lady

bailingout said:


> Does it seem that the PA in your life lacks basic common sense at times also?
> 
> I know that we all think differently based on our experiences/beliefs/etc and I get that we are all individuals but I find it hard to swallow that it could be so drastically different.
> 
> Many times I find myself shaking my head and thinking....are you serious and do you actually think I'm going believe you?
> 
> I guess I wonder how much of it is an act and how much of it can be related to other things, ie PA, immaturity, etc.


When I lived with my H he was like that. It seems like 'learned helplessness' and an essential part of their game. I think for him it was partly an act- a way to push me into acting out the 'mother' role. Because if he was really that obtuse- how did he manage to get by when he was living alone? 

Like the getting a job thing. For almost a year and a half when unemployed he was couldn't figure out how to call for unemployment, couldn't figure out how to apply to jobs online, couldn't figure out how to write a cover letter etc. etc. 

Once I was out of the house and he realized the unemployment checks were done, and mommy and daddy said no to his request for money, he managed to get a job in 3 days.


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## northernlights

bailingout said:


> So a recent incident with MIL got me thinking.
> 
> Does it seem that the PA in your life lacks basic common sense at times also?
> 
> I know that we all think differently based on our experiences/beliefs/etc and I get that we are all individuals but I find it hard to swallow that it could be so drastically different.
> 
> Many times I find myself shaking my head and thinking....are you serious and do you actually think I'm going believe you?
> 
> I guess I wonder how much of it is an act and how much of it can be related to other things, ie PA, immaturity, etc.
> 
> Just wondering what this group thinks about it.



Absolutely lacks basic common sense. Did I tell you about the time I asked him to get the laundry from the dryer and put in on our bed (laundry is in the basement, bedroom on the second floor, so that's 2 flights of stairs and I was recovering from a c-section). He took the dirty laundry from the washing machine (top loader!) and dumped it on the bed. To this day claims he didn't know that was the washer and not the dryer. (and yes, that means I did ALL the laundry, up and down all those stairs with the heavy laundry basket, even though I was recovering from the section). 

I could tell a million stories like this. I think it's an immaturity thing, honestly. I know it's not a neurological problem, because I had H evaluated. His IQ isn't very high, but it is within the normal range, so I assume it's not that. I think that when functioning people hit adulthood, they realize that it's up to them to get stuff done. The buck stops here, as they say. I know when I have to do something I've never done before, it can be tempting to throw up my hands and let someone else take care of it. BUt then I remember that I am an adult, and I can take care of it myself, so I figure it out and make it happen. With H, it seems like he hasn't gotten to a place where he can take FULL RESPONSIBILITY for himself, and is always waiting for someone else to come to his aid. And if you can't take full responsibility for yourself, how can you be a true spouse or parent to you kids? You can't.

That's my thoughts.


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## northernlights

Also, am I really the only spouse on here who convinced their partner to see a neurologist? I can't be the only one who's wanted to, right?


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## diwali123

Oh I wanted to trust me!


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## mace17

Wow....I never knew about passive aggressive people before until I read this post and many if the replies. I posted my own thread about problems with my H but after reading this I think I may know the problem. For example, we have a dog and he says that since I brought the dog home it's my problem and he will not take care of it (we've had the dog almost 4 years now). He will agree to mow the lawn, but only if I pick up dog poop right before he mows. If I am busy and don't get a chance to do it, he won't mow the lawn and it's my fault. If I think he's going to mow the lawn that day and pick up poop, but then he doesn't do it right away, then there's more poop and he can't mow the lawn. I usually go pick it up and then just mow the lawn right away myself because it's easier that way. Another example - we used to live in an apartment that had a dishwasher, and he believed that dishwashers were a totally waste of electricity and water and didn't get the dishes clean enough anyway. We had quite a few fights over that, and I told him that I preferred to use the dishwasher and if he wanted them done by hand he could do them. Of course that never happened, but I constantly got yelled at for using the dishwasher so eventually I gave up and didn't use it anymore. If he actually does something responsible, like make sure our son takes a shower or gets to bed on time, he brags about it and I have to pat him on the back for it, but I do that and more everyday and don't expect to get any compliments on it. Does this sound like passive aggressive behavior?

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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## mace17

> - Pink Lady - When I lived with my H he was like that. It seems like 'learned helplessness' and an essential part of their game. I think for him it was partly an act- a way to push me into acting out the 'mother' role. Because if he was really that obtuse- how did he manage to get by when he was living alone?
> 
> Like the getting a job thing. For almost a year and a half when unemployed he was couldn't figure out how to call for unemployment, couldn't figure out how to apply to jobs online, couldn't figure out how to write a cover letter etc. etc.
> 
> Once I was out of the house and he realized the unemployment checks were done, and mommy and daddy said no to his request for money, he managed to get a job in 3 days.


I can't believe how much that sounds like my H! He has no clue how to write a resume or cover letter, and while I have done it for him a few times, I have gotten blamed for him missing out on job opportunities because I didn't have time to update his resume.

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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## diwali123

mace17 said:


> Wow....I never knew about passive aggressive people before until I read this post and many if the replies. I posted my own thread about problems with my H but after reading this I think I may know the problem. For example, we have a dog and he says that since I brought the dog home it's my problem and he will not take care of it (we've had the dog almost 4 years now). He will agree to mow the lawn, but only if I pick up dog poop right before he mows. If I am busy and don't get a chance to do it, he won't mow the lawn and it's my fault. If I think he's going to mow the lawn that day and pick up poop, but then he doesn't do it right away, then there's more poop and he can't mow the lawn. I usually go pick it up and then just mow the lawn right away myself because it's easier that way. Another example - we used to live in an apartment that had a dishwasher, and he believed that dishwashers were a totally waste of electricity and water and didn't get the dishes clean enough anyway. We had quite a few fights over that, and I told him that I preferred to use the dishwasher and if he wanted them done by hand he could do them. Of course that never happened, but I constantly got yelled at for using the dishwasher so eventually I gave up and didn't use it anymore. If he actually does something responsible, like make sure our son takes a shower or gets to bed on time, he brags about it and I have to pat him on the back for it, but I do that and more everyday and don't expect to get any compliments on it. Does this sound like passive aggressive behavior?
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


Yes!


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## deejov

Accountability and inablity to take care of things...
Today my H finally went to see a lawyer. I don't think he liked what he heard. He asked me to write up "what I want" (money) and he'll take it to his lawyer.

Simply put.. I am not going to do all the work and hand it over to you. Eff that. I'm not doing anything. 

Mostly because I"ve done it already before. And he ignored it.

It's his job to finish this. He agreed to do it. He will figure it out. Or his family will pay someone to do it. Doesn't matter to me. But I'm not fixing this.


----------



## bailingout

SaltInWound said:


> Has anyone ever caught their PA spouse so off guard that they were speechless (not the silent treatment) and you could see the vulnerability in their eyes as if they were a frightened child? I have only experienced that one time. I think it only happened because I pulled him out of a deep sleep.


Yes a few times actually.



northernlights said:


> Absolutely lacks basic common sense. Did I tell you about the time I asked him to get the laundry from the dryer and put in on our bed (laundry is in the basement, bedroom on the second floor, so that's 2 flights of stairs and I was recovering from a c-section). He took the dirty laundry from the washing machine (top loader!) and dumped it on the bed. To this day claims he didn't know that was the washer and not the dryer. (and yes, that means I did ALL the laundry, up and down all those stairs with the heavy laundry basket, even though I was recovering from the section).
> 
> I could tell a million stories like this. I think it's an immaturity thing, honestly. I know it's not a neurological problem, because I had H evaluated. His IQ isn't very high, but it is within the normal range, so I assume it's not that. I think that when functioning people hit adulthood, they realize that it's up to them to get stuff done. The buck stops here, as they say. I know when I have to do something I've never done before, it can be tempting to throw up my hands and let someone else take care of it. BUt then I remember that I am an adult, and I can take care of it myself, so I figure it out and make it happen. With H, *it seems like he hasn't gotten to a place where he can take FULL RESPONSIBILITY for himself, and is always waiting for someone else to come to his aid. And if you can't take full responsibility for yourself, how can you be a true spouse or parent to you kids? You can't.*
> 
> That's my thoughts.


As for the laundry thing....OMFG!!!! and the bolded :iagree: 



northernlights said:


> Also, am I really the only spouse on here who convinced their partner to see a neurologist? I can't be the only one who's wanted to, right?


I never did cuz I know it's not neuro.



mace17 said:


> Wow....I never knew about passive aggressive people before until I read this post and many if the replies. I posted my own thread about problems with my H but after reading this I think I may know the problem. For example, we have a dog and he says that since I brought the dog home it's my problem and he will not take care of it (we've had the dog almost 4 years now). He will agree to mow the lawn, but only if I pick up dog poop right before he mows. If I am busy and don't get a chance to do it, he won't mow the lawn and it's my fault. If I think he's going to mow the lawn that day and pick up poop, but then he doesn't do it right away, then there's more poop and he can't mow the lawn. I usually go pick it up and then just mow the lawn right away myself because it's easier that way. Another example - we used to live in an apartment that had a dishwasher, and he believed that dishwashers were a totally waste of electricity and water and didn't get the dishes clean enough anyway. We had quite a few fights over that, and I told him that I preferred to use the dishwasher and if he wanted them done by hand he could do them. Of course that never happened, but I constantly got yelled at for using the dishwasher so eventually I gave up and didn't use it anymore. If he actually does something responsible, like make sure our son takes a shower or gets to bed on time, he brags about it and I have to pat him on the back for it, but I do that and more everyday and don't expect to get any compliments on it. Does this sound like passive aggressive behavior?


Yes it's his way of getting YOU to mow the lawn. A few things you could try. 1. Get him to commit to a mow day so you know in advance when you have to have poop cleaned up (make sure you get it done or he will use that against you). 2. Or try, tell him you need 1 day notice and he needs to tell YOU (not you ask) when he's going to do it so poop can be gone- again make sure you pick it up. 3. If he won't agree to either, tell him if he cannot agree to either that you will NOT mow the grass and if it looks like poop (no pun intended ), so be it, and DON'T mow it.

As for the dishwasher, I would use it and simply let him yell about it. Do not let him see that the yelling bothers you at all, simply say I'm sorry, I am going to use the dishwasher, if you want to be mad about it, go ahead and be mad. BTW- yelling is unacceptable, you need to stop reacting or showing that it bothers you and set up a consequence (if you can) when he yells. Mine used to yell, until I started charging him!!!! Yes, I charged him money (alot) when he rasied his voice, he rarely raises his voice at me anymore. 




deejov said:


> Accountability and inablity to take care of things...
> Today my H finally went to see a lawyer. I don't think he liked what he heard. He asked me to write up "what I want" (money) and he'll take it to his lawyer.
> 
> Simply put.. I am not going to do all the work and hand it over to you. Eff that. I'm not doing anything.
> 
> Mostly because I"ve done it already before. And he ignored it.
> 
> It's his job to finish this. He agreed to do it. He will figure it out. Or his family will pay someone to do it. Doesn't matter to me. But I'm not fixing this.


If I recall from my chat's with attys, he should be writing up what he wants for his lawyer, you should be doing it for yours and then mediate. You do have a separate lawyer right?


----------



## Wonderinginnc

Test post: TAM keeps throwing me out.


----------



## Wonderinginnc

As to the common sense thing, I've typed two long post only to be told I wasn't logged in, so I'll just say in a short post:

Yes, my husband is very intelligent but lacks very basic common sense. 

I'm afraid to post more for fear of losing the post again.


----------



## Wonderinginnc

I recognize that I am co-dependent and non-confrontational. All my husband has to do is raise his voice to me, and I back off on what I'm saying, doing or requesting. 

We're back to the bottle issue again. As mentioned in a previous post, he leaves trash, or recyclables on the counter despite many discussions about why I feel like a maid when he does it, etc. We had a very calm discussion about the chocolate bottle after he had left it on the counter for a week. 

Today, there is another bottle on the counter in the kitchen I spent my night cleaning, about a week after our discussion. Do I just have to suck it up and realize I am going to have to ask him to throw stuff away every single time I see it on the counter? Again, it feels so stupid to be so upset about a bottle, but it's just such an indication of our screwed up relationship.


----------



## diwali123

Is there anywhere in the house that is his that he likes to keep clean? Could you put those things in his space?


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## bailingout

Wonderinginnc said:


> As to the common sense thing, I've typed two long post only to be told I wasn't logged in, so I'll just say in a short post:
> 
> Yes, my husband is very intelligent but lacks very basic common sense.
> 
> I'm afraid to post more for fear of losing the post again.


I've encountered this login thing too, seems like when I am typing a long post.

When you try to submit the post and it says you're not logged in just enter your info, press enter and it should take you back to where you were. I did copy what I typed (before I hit submit) to make sure I wouldn't lose it but what I had typed was still there. Seems like a timeout thing. 

Make sense?


----------



## Wonderinginnc

diwali123 said:


> Is there anywhere in the house that is his that he likes to keep clean? Could you put those things in his space?


I've thought about putting it in his chair or on his pillow, but wondered if that was being passive aggressive also. One problem is he could live in squalor; he seems immune to nastiness, which is a product of his upbringing. His mother was a bit of a hoarder, who never put anything away, so he claims he doesn't notice things out of place.



bailingout said:


> I've encountered this login thing too, seems like when I am typing a long post.
> 
> When you try to submit the post and it says you're not logged in just enter your info, press enter and it should take you back to where you were. I did copy what I typed (before I hit submit) to make sure I wouldn't lose it but what I had typed was still there. Seems like a timeout thing.
> 
> Make sense?


Thanks, I'll keep that in mind.


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## diwali123

I don't know if it is. I think that he has just decided he isn't going to do that. So you either do it or leave it. 
My ex's mom was a hoarder type but on the clean side. He could live in squalor too. 
I think he glommed onto my friend so quickly because he can't be alone. He doesn't know how to function. I really wanted him to have to figure out how to do things himself. 
But she needed someone too, so it was perfect. 

From this thread it seems like with the worst PAs you are just going to have to accept having a roommate/child.


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## SaltInWound

Wonderinginnc said:


> I've thought about putting it in his chair or on his pillow, but wondered if that was being passive aggressive also. One problem is he could live in squalor; he seems immune to nastiness, which is a product of his upbringing. His mother was a bit of a hoarder, who never put anything away, so he claims he doesn't notice things out of place.


Mom had a mental illness. Guess where your husband's problem originated?


----------



## Wiserforit

northernlights said:


> Absolutely lacks basic common sense. Did I tell you about the time I asked him to get the laundry from the dryer and put in on our bed (laundry is in the basement, bedroom on the second floor, so that's 2 flights of stairs and I was recovering from a c-section). He took the dirty laundry from the washing machine (top loader!) and dumped it on the bed. To this day claims he didn't know that was the washer and not the dryer. (and yes, that means I did ALL the laundry, up and down all those stairs with the heavy laundry basket, even though I was recovering from the section).


Classic sabotage act by a manipulator. 

If you don't want to do a chore, either screw it up or make it so exasperating to supervise that it is less work for the victim to do it themselves.

That's malicious of course, so the naiive, gullible victim replaces the obvious and clear explanation with the vastly inferior "they don't know what they're doing" explanation. 

If you cut off their finger for screwing up a job, they'd never do it wrong again. This is just a case of being allowed to get away with something. It works, so that's what they do.


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## mace17

I guess I never thought of it quite that way before. My H plays completely helpless when it comes to cleaning, cooking, or paying bills and I usually just end up doing it all rather than argue about it. Could this explain his method of "initiating" sex too? He will lay in bed next to me, not touching me or anything, and sigh loudly, sniffle, and clear his throat repeatedly, until I get annoyed and reach over and grab him and give him what he wants. Just once I'd like to actually feel desired.....


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## diwali123

mace17 said:


> I guess I never thought of it quite that way before. My H plays completely helpless when it comes to cleaning, cooking, or paying bills and I usually just end up doing it all rather than argue about it. Could this explain his method of "initiating" sex too? He will lay in bed next to me, not touching me or anything, and sigh loudly, sniffle, and clear his throat repeatedly, until I get annoyed and reach over and grab him and give him what he wants. Just once I'd like to actually feel desired.....


What a jerk!


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## mace17

diwali123 said:


> What a jerk!


Is that passive aggressive behavior too?


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## diwali123

Yes! He can't come out and say what he wants or take action so he acts like a jerk until you do it for him.


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## mace17

diwali123 said:


> Yes! He can't come out and say what he wants or take action so he acts like a jerk until you do it for him.


So I should probably ignore him until he actually asks? It's hard though, if I ignore his unspoken requests I hear about it all the next day.


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## SaltInWound

mace17 said:


> So I should probably ignore him until he actually asks? It's hard though, if I ignore his unspoken requests I hear about it all the next day.


Out of curiosity, what exactly does he say the next day?


----------



## mace17

SaltInWound said:


> Out of curiosity, what exactly does he say the next day?


He will whine about how he's horny, or how he couldn't sleep because he was uncomfortable. And he will mention it several times during the day, making sure I don't forget. Or course it's all my fault.


----------



## Fledgling

I just finished reading Dance of Anger. If I were to go by this book people in CoD relationships with PAs are overfunctioners and that avoiding blame can make a positive difference. PAs will typically underfunction in response to all the mental/emotional work the CoD does which cause the CoD to overfunction which causes..you get the idea. 

As I read this book I realized a few things. 

1)I really need to stop and ask myself is this something I could live with if everything else was a-ok in my relationship. For instance my husband loves making salads but has this horrible habit of leaving all the clippings in the sink where they get mushy/smelly and I have to clean it up. If all was kosher in our relationship I would simply clean the mess with maybe a sigh but it wouldn't breed lasting resentment. But because our relationship is not kosher this offense gets piled on top of everything else and becomes a PROBLEM. (Despite the fact that he prepared the salad that I ate.)

2)No bottom line position/fuzzy boundaries --- kind of self explanatory but I let him get away with it and am surprised when he keeps doing it? Guilt, like anger, is a signal that you son't have clear boundaries. Some really deep look into ourselves is required. Why do I feel guilty because I am taking this action? Am I afraid of being called selfish? Am I afraid of being called lazy or nagging? Do I think I am selfish, lazy or nagging? IF not then why do I feel guilty?

3)Giving in to his "Change back" tactics. Sometimes when I do set a boundary (at least think I have) and feel that I am changing my communication style to be more reasonable he will go on the attack. This is the time we CoDs think they KNOW what they are doing. This is the time when we are sure they are doing things ON PURPOSE. In a way they are. Because they want you to change back. This is instinctive and reactionary for them. No matter how much they may hate the current dynamic they will feel the loss of whatever power they thought they had managed to have and will fight to get that sense of control back. According to Dance of Anger this is the time where we need to be consistent but loving.

4)Our anger is a signal that we don't have clear boundaries. It doesn't mean that we are selfish or that our spouse/partner is wrong or to blame. Sometimes we don't even know that there is a boundary that needs to be set until something triggers our anger. That is when we CoDs, imho, say that it is COMMON SENSE and the PAs will say that THEY ARE NOT MINDREADERS. IMHO, this sidetracks the issue at hand on BLAME instead of on boundary setting and problem solving.


----------



## diwali123

That sounds like a great book! 

I'm a very clear communicator so from the beginning I would try to set clear boundaries.
I ended up divorced so I don't know if I'm the best person to offer advice.
But if my SO were to do that at night, I would say "is something wrong?"
Or if I knew that he was trying to get sex I would have a conversation during the day and talk about initiating, tell him that I would like to spice things up and see if he is interested. 
And then try to incorporate other ways of initiating into the bedroom. 

If I were hard core I would say during the day "I would like to change the way we go about letting each other know we are in the mood, can we work on that?"

I do agree that if everything is ok in the relationship the little things are easier to overlook. My marriage is very strong and my h does some things that are annoying like rearranging the dish washer, rearranging grocery carts, refusing to throw away receipts. 
But it doesn't make me mad the way that kind of thing would have with my ex. 

Because we have clear channel of communication. I don't feel manipulated by him at all.


----------



## 1bzymom

Goodmorning Ladies, 
I just wanted to thank you all for everything you've shared on this board. For me, it has truly been life-saving information. I was at my wits end, probably just a stone's throw away from a mental breakdown when I came across this thread. I was fumbling through the internet looking for anything to make sense of what I couldn't. I'm not an overly religious person but it had to be more than chance because it's just been a blessing. Truly inspirational. I feel better than I have in years. It's empowering to know you aren't the only one. It's like, "if it's not just me than it must be real." And that knowledge, just in itself, is a huge sense of relief and comfort.
Thankyou, Thankyou, Thankyou


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## diwali123

You are so welcome!!! 
I posted a link to a PA board that is phenomenal. I would check that out too. It saved my sanity!


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## northernlights

diwali123, can you repost that link? I must have missed it.

1bzymom, I know exactly how you feel. PAs will make you feel totally insane. Especially if you have one that lies and tries to convince you that something he said or did never happened. At first I was hesitant to acknowledge it as a form of abuse, but it is. Thinking about the behavior as abuse actually has helped me decide how to handle it. Like, if H was hitting me, I wouldn't spend so much time and energy trying to figure out WHY he hit me, and whether he _really _meant to hurt me or it was an accident, and rationalizing how bad his childhood was so of course that's all he knows... no, I'd just get out and get safe. Now, hopefully some or even most marriages with a PA don't require getting right now, but just because we're not in danger of being killed, doesn't mean we have to stay and take it.


----------



## diwali123

http://passiveaggressive.homestead.com/

You have to email her to join. It keeps out trolls.


----------



## Fledgling

> I'm a very clear communicator so from the beginning I would try to set clear boundaries


That is a good way to test and get out of a relationship early.  Most of us find someone whom we feel is a soulmate and feel like they will automatically know, just like we would always automatically "know" about them.

The issue, later on, is that many of us women (and men) DO communicate. At least verbally. But often our actions don't match our words. Our boundaries fluctuate depending on the actions of another person, usually our spouse. We draw a line in the sand and watch in disbelief as our SO just steps right over it. And they repeatedly do so. So either the problem is them or the problem is us. Now I'm not saying that we cause our SO's poor behavior but we rarely have a bottom line, will not tolerate, these are the consequences, for an action that crosses the line. And usually if we do it is "break up" or "divorce". Usually we think up a _punishment_ on the spot -- kinda "I'll show HIM" reaction (raging or cold shoulder)which is impossible to keep up in the long run without breeding more resentment on both sides and consequently almost never works (unless we intend to breed fear of our wrath which is most certainly what we don't want.)

Also even if you have boundaries and the SO is supposedly clear on them (how could they not be after hearing it ad nauseum?) it doesn't mean that he/she has proper boundaries of their own. In fact the more I think about it the more I believe that a person without boundaries has a difficult time recognizing and respecting boundaries when they see them.


----------



## deejov

Maybe I am losing it (again) but I have realised a new reality in my situation.

I don't know if you want to call it PA, but here's the reality.
My H is obsessed with controlling what other people do. Easiest way to explain it.

And when things \ people don't go the way he wants them to, he gets angry, frustrated, and gets even.

So it looks very PA. He's mad because he wants a boss, family member, me, to treat him a certain way, do certain things. When that doesn't happen, he gets angry. Never takes the blame for that... just fights harder to find out how to MAKE the world bend to what he wants. 

Put shortly... very little sense of self awareness, boundaries, or how the world really works. 

Just my thoughts today.


----------



## northernlights

Self-awareness Deejov, I think that's the first thing all of them really lack. Self-determination.

My H has this other annoying habit. It bugs me because it feels misogynistic, but I'm very sensitive to misogyny, so tell me if you disagree.

H needs to run every decision we make by my brother. Now, my brother is a great guy, very smart, and he and H have a close relationship, so I've never said anything because I don't want to get in the way of that. But when he needs to run _everything _by my brother, I get irritated. Like, he doesn't trust my judgement enough, but if my brother ok's it, then he does? And I do mean everything. I suggest a weekend at the water park? "Well, I'll see what your brother thinks." I want to buy the girls a battery-operated ride-on toy for christmas? "Let's wait until tomorrow to order it and I'll see if your brother thinks it's a good idea." 

EV.RY.THING.

So, like I said, I feel like, why does he trust my brother's opinion more than mine? Is it because my brother is a man? H comes from another country, and they're a LOT more misogynistic than men here, but I'm not 100% sure that's it in this case. 

What do you all think?


----------



## Fledgling

northernlights said:


> Self-awareness Deejov, I think that's the first thing all of them really lack. Self-determination.
> 
> My H has this other annoying habit. It bugs me because it feels misogynistic, but I'm very sensitive to misogyny, so tell me if you disagree.
> 
> H needs to run every decision we make by my brother. Now, my brother is a great guy, very smart, and he and H have a close relationship, so I've never said anything because I don't want to get in the way of that. But when he needs to run _everything _by my brother, I get irritated. Like, he doesn't trust my judgement enough, but if my brother ok's it, then he does? And I do mean everything. I suggest a weekend at the water park? "Well, I'll see what your brother thinks." I want to buy the girls a battery-operated ride-on toy for christmas? "Let's wait until tomorrow to order it and I'll see if your brother thinks it's a good idea."
> 
> EV.RY.THING.
> 
> So, like I said, I feel like, why does he trust my brother's opinion more than mine? Is it because my brother is a man? H comes from another country, and they're a LOT more misogynistic than men here, but I'm not 100% sure that's it in this case.
> 
> What do you all think?


What if you did all the legwork and bought the tickets for the water park on your own without running it by your H first? It's tricky to think that he is over dependent on your brother when you may have unresolved dependence issues of your own. You seem to be waiting for him to make a decision, any sort of decision, before taking action yourself. Your indication that your H goes to your bro over EVERYTHING indicates that this is a recurrent problem. By going to your brother your H conveniently sidesteps the whole thing to avoid making a poor decision and plays into your fears about not being able to make a "good decision" based upon your sex which makes it less likely that you will give input in the future. Now he's developed a bad habit and whether or not he harbors any misogynistic tendencies this will only deserve to entrench him more. I certainly wouldn't jump to the conclusion that he is actively trying to hurt your feelings or subvert you, though. Rather, you may want to inform your husband that he is creating a triangle paradigm with your brother that causes you to feel left out. I would even go so far as to talk to your brother and inform him of the same. It would be difficult with both made aware of your discomfort that the dynamic wouldn't change in your favor.

Forget whether or not your H (or brother) is misogynistic (blame) and think of _your_ reaction. What is the boundary that you could set here? Not meaning an overreaction but the boundary and the consequence for crossing that boundary?


----------



## Fledgling

deejov said:


> Put shortly... very little sense of self awareness, boundaries, or how the world really works.
> 
> Just my thoughts today.


Many PAs do not know the difference between a NEED and a DESIRE. When they can't tell the difference between a need and a desire how can their significant other? To the non-PA person it must seem like they blow up over "every little thing" and so don't really put in the effort to fulfill the other person's NEEDS. What we think they should need and what they actually need may be two different things.


----------



## diwali123

Fledgling said:


> That is a good way to test and get out of a relationship early.  Most of us find someone whom we feel is a soulmate and feel like they will automatically know, just like we would always automatically "know" about them.
> 
> The issue, later on, is that many of us women (and men) DO communicate. At least verbally. But often our actions don't match our words. Our boundaries fluctuate depending on the actions of another person, usually our spouse. We draw a line in the sand and watch in disbelief as our SO just steps right over it. And they repeatedly do so. So either the problem is them or the problem is us. Now I'm not saying that we cause our SO's poor behavior but we rarely have a bottom line, will not tolerate, these are the consequences, for an action that crosses the line. And usually if we do it is "break up" or "divorce". Usually we think up a _punishment_ on the spot -- kinda "I'll show HIM" reaction (raging or cold shoulder)which is impossible to keep up in the long run without breeding more resentment on both sides and consequently almost never works (unless we intend to breed fear of our wrath which is most certainly what we don't want.)
> 
> Also even if you have boundaries and the SO is supposedly clear on them (how could they not be after hearing it ad nauseum?) it doesn't mean that he/she has proper boundaries of their own. In fact the more I think about it the more I believe that a person without boundaries has a difficult time recognizing and respecting boundaries when they see them.


With us things went in cycles (like the cycle of abuse) where I would put my foot down and say if things didn't change I was going to leave. Then he would stop for days, months, a year. And then he always went back to his old ways. 

I think over time he found ways to keep me from having power and money, to keep me from getting a good job, from going to grad school, and I think he thought if we had a baby I would be stuck. 
I know it sounds crazy like how could someone keep you from getting a good job? I just didn't see it at the time at all. 
Now I see that he knew I had a breaking point and instead of really trying to work on his issues he tried to find ways to bind me to him.


----------



## diwali123

northernlights said:


> Self-awareness Deejov, I think that's the first thing all of them really lack. Self-determination.
> 
> My H has this other annoying habit. It bugs me because it feels misogynistic, but I'm very sensitive to misogyny, so tell me if you disagree.
> 
> H needs to run every decision we make by my brother. Now, my brother is a great guy, very smart, and he and H have a close relationship, so I've never said anything because I don't want to get in the way of that. But when he needs to run _everything _by my brother, I get irritated. Like, he doesn't trust my judgement enough, but if my brother ok's it, then he does? And I do mean everything. I suggest a weekend at the water park? "Well, I'll see what your brother thinks." I want to buy the girls a battery-operated ride-on toy for christmas? "Let's wait until tomorrow to order it and I'll see if your brother thinks it's a good idea."
> 
> EV.RY.THING.
> 
> So, like I said, I feel like, why does he trust my brother's opinion more than mine? Is it because my brother is a man? H comes from another country, and they're a LOT more misogynistic than men here, but I'm not 100% sure that's it in this case.
> 
> What do you all think?


That is bizarre! He can't even stand up for himself!?!


----------



## c101

I think you're awesome for making the choice that you are making and for not letting other people tell you what to do! Life is a matrix of choices. I have learned that some seemingly bad choices are better than no choices at all! I say this because I came into this world without parents to lead me to the best way to live and have lost much because others only gave me bits and pieces of data on what it takes to live well. So I admire you examining your cards and making choices that you feel comfortable with -- you have a lot of dignity and I respect that. 

Anyway, I think it's neat that despite discomfort, you are making the best choices you can make. I see people in my current circle attempting to be PA with me but it ultimately doesn't work because I see myself as an EQUAL.

Signed,
Never found a man "safe" enough to have kids with and now I'm 40+

P.S. To keep your sanity, you may want to read about power dynamics in relationships.


----------



## PrettyHappyOverall

Interesting. By reading these posts I have come to the conclusion that every single relationship has a PA person, or a dependent, or that the grass is greener, or SOMETHING wrong. Not once has someone put up a post saying "you know, things aren't perfect, but that's just how marriage is".
That is why the divorce rate has skyrocketed over the last 30 years. Ever since divorce became socially acceptable and downright simple to obtain, people no longer value what they have; they see things that they don't like, classify and categorize them, and then look for an out. They miss that rosy glow of a budding relationship, where they ignored or overlooked things that later on became huge issues.
That's just the way marriage is. You're not going to solve the problem by leaving, because the next person you are with will have things you don't like as well. The only difference is you'll be a quitter.
I'm no different than anyone else; my spouse has things about her that I REALLY don't like, and things I do. All that matters to me is that her and my core values are alike. Nothing gets solved by quitting, and personally I would never get involved with a divorcee; to me that is a person who either took the critical issue of marriage and made a hasty/bad decision, or it is someone who is not up to the challenges of marriage and will likely quit on ME if the going gets tough.
Man up, people, and figure out solutions to your problems instead of finding justifications.


----------



## diwali123

PrettyHappyOverall said:


> Interesting. By reading these posts I have come to the conclusion that every single relationship has a PA person, or a dependent, or that the grass is greener, or SOMETHING wrong. Not once has someone put up a post saying "you know, things aren't perfect, but that's just how marriage is".
> That is why the divorce rate has skyrocketed over the last 30 years. Ever since divorce became socially acceptable and downright simple to obtain, people no longer value what they have; they see things that they don't like, classify and categorize them, and then look for an out. They miss that rosy glow of a budding relationship, where they ignored or overlooked things that later on became huge issues.
> That's just the way marriage is. You're not going to solve the problem by leaving, because the next person you are with will have things you don't like as well. The only difference is you'll be a quitter.
> I'm no different than anyone else; my spouse has things about her that I REALLY don't like, and things I do. All that matters to me is that her and my core values are alike. Nothing gets solved by quitting, and personally I would never get involved with a divorcee; to me that is a person who either took the critical issue of marriage and made a hasty/bad decision, or it is someone who is not up to the challenges of marriage and will likely quit on ME if the going gets tough.
> Man up, people, and figure out solutions to your problems instead of finding justifications.


That's just the way marriage is? Abusive? Married to a man child lying manipulator? Sorry but no that's not just the way marriage is. Maybe that's the way YOU are and if so you might some day find yourself as a divorcee if you don't turn your self around. 

I've been with my husband now for three years and it's been wonderful. Not perfect, not at all. But we are both fully participating in our marriage. We are both adults and share the responsibilities and communicate our wants and needs like adults. 
I can count on him like I never have been able to with any man.
Case in point, we went on a week long vacation, drove 15 hours to stay with my parents in a condo. 
He did half the packing, half the planning, half the driving. We both helped with every step. 
With my ex, he never would have helped me with any of it, would have sabotaged the trip, been a miserable A hole the whole time, would have made sure I couldn't sleep while he drove, would have started fights over nothing, and would have pouted and sulked all week. 

It's just not worth living life that way. And let me tell you this. He didn't love me, and I don't think he really loves anyone but himself. People are just obstacles in his way or pawns to get what he wants. Don't feel sorry for him, he found a new pawn within months and they are still together five years later. 
His heart break was non existent. Most people like this find another coD to glom onto immediately. People are interchangeable to them.


----------



## northernlights

PrettyHappyOverall, did you really read this entire thread? And that's ALL you have to offer?

If you actually want to be helpful, why don't you share with us quitters some of your great marital wisdom?


----------



## Battleworn

I agree with PrettyHappy to an extent, but then there are relationships like what diwali cited! People who are abusive or unwilling to cooperate within a marriage make things dark and unbearable. My parents had a relationship like that and while I don't agree with my mom's infidelity, I am glad they aren't together. My dad just has way too many issues, and he just clings on to whoever will have him, like a flea or a tick, and eventually my mom had enough and left him. My dad is majorly PA, full of himself, "everything is everyone else's fault". That old chestnut.

However, in my current situation, my H is trying his hardest to justify a divorce because he is tired of how we handle things. Lots of rugsweeping and stubborn behavior. But since all of this has happened, I have really seen how damaging that has been. You don't really see it while it's happening...
Anyway he kind of displays PA symptoms. At first, he didn't seem to mind me making all of the decisions because he is so indecisive. At least he would have had me believe that. But recently he had this idea in his head that I was trying to run his behavior, so he would buck back on everything! Suddenly I made all of the decisions and he didn't get to make any at all. Now that he is on this divorce tear, and I'm trying to talk some sense into him, he is insistent that I want to be in control as usual. I do not know how to break through to him that I am not trying to run tell him what to do, but trying to get him to come home and stop with the "all hope is lost" speech! So irritating. 

I would think that to help someone who is PA, you have to lead without speaking. Gently lead by switching up how things are handled and they will follow. It seems to be in their nature to not be a natural leader anyway... and there are ways to guide people without making it seem like you are the shepherd.


----------



## SaltInWound

Battleworn said:


> However, in my current situation, my H is trying his hardest to justify a divorce because he is tired of how we handle things. Lots of rugsweeping and stubborn behavior. But since all of this has happened, I have really seen how damaging that has been. You don't really see it while it's happening...
> Anyway he kind of displays PA symptoms. At first, he didn't seem to mind me making all of the decisions because he is so indecisive. At least he would have had me believe that. But recently he had this idea in his head that I was trying to run his behavior, so he would buck back on everything! Suddenly I made all of the decisions and he didn't get to make any at all. Now that he is on this divorce tear, and I'm trying to talk some sense into him, he is insistent that I want to be in control as usual. I do not know how to break through to him that I am not trying to run tell him what to do, but trying to get him to come home and stop with the "all hope is lost" speech! So irritating.


He "kind of" displays PA symptoms? You are trapped in the web and endless cycle. Do you know why he was indecisive about everything? It isn't the reason you think it is. He didn't want to make any decisions, so that way if something went wrong, he could blame you. And the HUGE bonus was covertly forcing you to make all the decisions so that he can do exactly what he is doing now.........telling you that you are so controlling, giving him justification to dump you. And this game of his is working beautifully, because he has you jumping through hoops trying to find a solution to your problems, when he has absolutely no intention of cooperating. He has created drama and you never saw it coming. All he wants is your reaction. You are irritated. Touchdown!


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## Battleworn

Ouch, you're a Salty one c;

In all seriousness I think I am just trying to justify his behavior by saying "kind of". A form of denial I suppose. I am pretty well aware of the type of person he is. I just don't know if I can really admit it to myself.

I have been more angry than not lately, and really just getting fed up with the petty excuses as to why he wants to end our marriage.


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## Wonderinginnc

For years, I have struggled with issues in my marriage, and have taken all the responsibility: If I were only perfect at being a wife or what I thought a good wife was, then my husband would treat me like I've seen other husbands treat wives. I tried to do it all, the housework, the childcare, carrying the financial burden, and being the seductive vixen in the bedroom. I did what I could to make his life easier and comfortable. But it never worked. He remained emotionally distant, and seemed angry the more I tried. 

I looked on in bewilderment as other people had different relationships. How can I obtain that? What am I doing wrong? People would say "why don't you just talk to him about how your feel" which would frustrate me even more because I would try, and would be shut down immediately. I felt like a freak, that no one in the world would understand or comprehend what I felt.

Then I found this thread, and see several people who are living lives just like I am. It's amazing how good that feels.

So PrettyHappy, I am not a quitter. I've stayed married for 24 years, and came to this thread seeking advice to stay married. It may not work in the end, but I know that your pithy little statements are irrelevant to most of the pain we on this thread are going through.


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## pink_lady

PrettyHappyOverall said:


> Interesting. By reading these posts I have come to the conclusion that every single relationship has a PA person, or a dependent, or that the grass is greener, or SOMETHING wrong. Not once has someone put up a post saying "you know, things aren't perfect, but that's just how marriage is".
> That is why the divorce rate has skyrocketed over the last 30 years. Ever since divorce became socially acceptable and downright simple to obtain, people no longer value what they have; they see things that they don't like, classify and categorize them, and then look for an out. They miss that rosy glow of a budding relationship, where they ignored or overlooked things that later on became huge issues.
> That's just the way marriage is. You're not going to solve the problem by leaving, because the next person you are with will have things you don't like as well. The only difference is you'll be a quitter.
> I'm no different than anyone else; my spouse has things about her that I REALLY don't like, and things I do. All that matters to me is that her and my core values are alike. Nothing gets solved by quitting, and personally I would never get involved with a divorcee; to me that is a person who either took the critical issue of marriage and made a hasty/bad decision, or it is someone who is not up to the challenges of marriage and will likely quit on ME if the going gets tough.
> Man up, people, and figure out solutions to your problems instead of finding justifications.


No, not every marriage has a P-A. But most of the people posting on THIS THREAD have lived with a P-A because...hang on now...that's the topic of the thread.

It's not about you.


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## pink_lady

Happy, what you need to understand is this:

Passive aggressive people are not interested in 'working on' the marriage or 'working out' problems.

They see their spouse as an adversary, not a partner.

ONE person 'working on' the marriage, while being obstructed every step of the way by their spouse, obviously does not work.


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## bailingout

PrettyHappyOverall said:


> All that matters to me is that her and my core values are alike.


Happy what would you do if you later found out that you "thought" you shared the same core values and as time passed you realized it was all an act? I believe that is where most of the people on this thread find themselves now for whatever reasons. 



Battleworn said:


> I would think that to help someone who is PA, you have to lead without speaking. Gently lead by switching up how things are handled and they will follow. It seems to be in their nature to not be a natural leader anyway... and there are ways to guide people without making it seem like you are the shepherd.


:iagree:



SaltInWound said:


> He "kind of" displays PA symptoms? You are trapped in the web and endless cycle. Do you know why he was indecisive about everything? It isn't the reason you think it is. He didn't want to make any decisions, so that way if something went wrong, he could blame you. And the HUGE bonus was covertly forcing you to make all the decisions so that he can do exactly what he is doing now.........telling you that you are so controlling, giving him justification to dump you. And this game of his is working beautifully, because he has you jumping through hoops trying to find a solution to your problems, when he has absolutely no intention of cooperating. He has created drama and you never saw it coming. All he wants is your reaction. You are irritated. Touchdown!


:iagree:


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## northernlights

What, is PrettyHappy not going to come back and finish mansplaining marriage to us silly females? I'm shocked! Shocked I tell you!!


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## 1bzymom

Diwali123, Thanks for the link 

Northernlights, thank you also for what you said. It really was striking to read that analogy. It is so true and I've never thought of it that way. 

As far was what prettyhappy had to say, it's that kind of thinking that keeps people in unhealthy relationships. But those things, the "everybody has something" things between couples are at least tangible, like "she shaves her legs in the kitchen" or "he leaves his dirty clothes on the floor". 

For me, in this kind of relationship, it's almost invisible. You can't put your finger on it, but you know something's wrong. And of course you look inward. And when you still can't figure it out you begin to question your own sanity. And you can't explain it to anyone else and they (the PA) don't talk, and you become very lonely. So I don't think prettyhappy's logic really applies in the grand scheme.


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## northernlights

Here's the problem with prettyhappy's thinking: "Ever since divorce became socially acceptable and downright simple to obtain, people no longer value what they have; they see things that they don't like, classify and categorize them, and then look for an out. They miss that rosy glow of a budding relationship, where they ignored or overlooked things that later on became huge issues."

The corrected sentence would read, "Ever since divorce became socially acceptable and downright simple to obtain, people no longer feel that they have no choice but to remain in abusive situations."

See, fixed!

1bzymom, what you said about having nothing concrete to point to, is I thin what kept me around in the first place. Without a good explanation of why I should go, that I could explain to other people, I thought everything must be ok. 

In my husband's case, the passivity extends to pretty much every aspect of his personality. He has never, ever started a fight with me or criticized me (which was a huge part of why I thought he was a great guy). On the flip side, he isn't affectionate, doesn't talk to me, doesn't initiate anything, from dates to daily activities to basic interactions! 

How old are your kids? Mine are 5 and 8, and they're why I'm still here.


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## 1bzymom

My kids are 19, 15, 13 and 9. I have known for many years now, even before I knew anything about PA, that they were my reason for staying. 

My oldest is the only one catching on about her father. It makes me sad for both of them. She is too old now for me to run interference the way I did when she was younger so it is affecting her directly and she's becoming more aware of it. The problem is she keeps looking to me for answers. "Why does he do that?" or "why doesn't he answer me?" and full of frustration and confusion. I recently have caught myself saying things like "welcome to my world" when she brings it up. Which is probably not good, but I just don't know what to say to her. I resent being put in that position with her. How can I explain to her what I don't understand myself? Also, I don't want my feelings to affect their relationship. I want her to have a good relationship with her father, I want all of them to, so I usually bite my tongue and make excuses for him. I don't know what else to do. I'm finding that tactic harder and harder to do.

Here's a recent scenario example: 
Thirteen years ago we moved into this house. It had no air conditioning because the design of the house doesn't allow for ductwork but my father had figured out a way to do it. Unfortunately, he got sick and passed almost immediately after. So, here I am all these years later with still no a/c, so we have to use a window unit which means hubby has to put it in the window.
Every year, it's a whole dance routine to get him to do it. Of course I have to ask him to, even though it's his house and he's hot too. Then there's an endless list of excuses. So I have to wait, then ask some more, which turns into some kind of fight because I wind up asking why I have to ask in the first place. Why does he act surprised every year when it gets hot again?! Why is this always an issue?! Then he makes the fight about something else entirely. When he finally does do it, then I have to thank him endlessly and pat him on the back for being so wonderful. 
Last year the fight was so bad he had me in tears. Somehow asking him to put the a/c in the window turned into being told about all the burdens I've put on his life?! And went onto some very hurtful subjects (I had just had a terrible falling out with my sister), just mean for no reason to the point I said "what kind of man does that to someone they supposedly love?". It was one of the worst and most ridiculous fights we ever had. All over air conditioning!
This year, I didn't ask. So we went without a/c for most of June. And my oldest would say "why hasn't daddy put the air in?" and I'd say... "Idk, ask him", but she wouldn't. This went on for weeks until one day she got angry with me and said "why won't you just ask him to put it in?!". WHAT?! Amazing. He's trained her so well even she thinks this is my fault. I said, "why should I have to ASK to be comfortable in my own home? I shouldn't have to, and I won't! He's aware it's hot, he's hot too, he's a grown man and doesn't need me to tell him what to do and I can't lift the @*#$ thing to do it myself or I would, so what do you want from me?!" She said, "I just want the air in!". LOL... he is so good! This is exactly where he wants _me _to be, but instead it's her, and that bothers me. 
So I went and bought a portable air conditioner the next day and set it up myself!


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## diwali123

Good for you! What usually got my ex to do things was threatening to call another male and ask them to do it. 

I think I would tell her "this something I have to ask for every year and I have realized that it isn't healthy for me to do that anymore. So I'm not going to."

I would make things about you being healthy and you setting boundaries. It makes him look bad but not in a mean way. And that's a natural consequence of his behavior. You shouldn't have to manage his relationships with your children.


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## 1bzymom

Like I said, it makes me sad for both of them. He's going to screw up their relationship and there's probably nothing I can do about it. I can see in her the hurt and confusion his mixed signals cause. I can see her questioning herself the way I have a million times. I can see her tip-toe around the minefield of his moods. It makes me cringe sometimes. 
Her car broke down recently so of course, she asked her dad about it. He said it might be this or that but did nothing. It sat for over two weeks, all the while she was complaining to me. She had a friend who was willing to come look at it but she didn't want to step on her father's toes so she didn't know what to do & she kept asking me. I really didn't know either. If you get someone else involved you run the risk of making him angry or hurting his feelings or something. 
Eventually I told her to go ahead and call her friend. She said, "what if he gets mad?", I said "he can get glad again, you need your car." So she did. And when the friend came to look at it, he was suddenly interested. Go figure! And I could see it in her face. So pleased he showed interested yet so confused as to why he hadn't. Wondering if she'd done something wrong... or right. Questioning herself because of the change in him. It's amazing how they do that! 
I can see it happening but I can't protect her from it. The only thing I figure I can do is give her permission to not let his moods dictate her behavior the way he has mine.


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## diwali123

Exactly. Who cares if he gets angry? That's his problem. 
He obviously doesn't care about upsetting any of you.


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## SaltInWound

1bzymom said:


> My oldest is the only one catching on about her father.
> 
> The problem is she keeps looking to me for answers. "Why does he do that?" or "why doesn't he answer me?" and full of frustration and confusion. I recently have caught myself saying things like "welcome to my world" when she brings it up. Which is probably not good, but I just don't know what to say to her. I resent being put in that position with her. How can I explain to her what I don't understand myself?
> 
> Here's a recent scenario example:
> 
> This year, I didn't ask. So we went without a/c for most of June. And my oldest would say "why hasn't daddy put the air in?" and I'd say... "Idk, ask him", but she wouldn't. This went on for weeks until one day she got angry with me and said "why won't you just ask him to put it in?!". WHAT?! Amazing. He's trained her so well even she thinks this is my fault. I said, "why should I have to ASK to be comfortable in my own home? I shouldn't have to, and I won't! He's aware it's hot, he's hot too, he's a grown man and doesn't need me to tell him what to do and I can't lift the @*#$ thing to do it myself or I would, so what do you want from me?!" She said, "I just want the air in!". LOL... he is so good! This is exactly where he wants _me _to be, but instead it's her, and that bothers me.


Go buy the book "Living with the Passive Aggressive Man" by Scott Wetzler. Hand it to your daughter and make her read it. It will explain everything. This is what life is like and it is not sugar coated. 

I dealt with the same thing with our son. He learned to be PA too and my stbxh was using our son as a weapon against me, causing our son to stop giving me respect. Life was very bad for me. It almost killed my parent/child relationship. It was not until my stbxh did something vile at the same time to both of us that our (now grown) son realized I was not the problem all those years. Our son admitted his dad had him so convinced the problem was me to the point he thought my tears were fake. Now, he can't apologize enough.


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## 1bzymom

I will definitely read that book myself! With her, I worry she's not emotionally ready to understand. And I worry I'll be the bad guy. Even if I convince her there's something wrong with him, I think she'd expect me to be able to fix it. And then be angry with me instead of him. Kind of like the a/c situation.


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## diwali123

Have you thought about encouraging her to get IC?


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## 1bzymom

I hate to seem so clueless, but I don't know what IC is...??


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## SaltInWound

1bzymom said:


> I will definitely read that book myself! With her, I worry she's not emotionally ready to understand. And I worry I'll be the bad guy. Even if I convince her there's something wrong with him, I think she'd expect me to be able to fix it. And then be angry with me instead of him. Kind of like the a/c situation.


Once she reads the book, she will realize it can't be fixed. I think of my stbxh as Humpty Dumpty.


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## northernlights

IC is individual counseling.


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## 1bzymom

I hadn't considered counseling for her for two reasons:
First, she's only recently becoming aware and directly affected, and I don't think it's even occurred to her that there is something "wrong". 
Secondly, and mostly, based on my own experience with counseling. I tried talking to a therapist about my issues with my husband. This was before I had a name for it. I would go on and on about how he didn't talk to me when I tried to discuss our relationship. The therapist told me to use the "I feel" approach. And be sure to not put things on him, but make them about my feelings. Ok. Tried that. Got nothing. Still the therapist advised me to try this or that and somehow always made me feel like it was my fault or there was something I must have been doing or not doing.
Once I told the therapist my husband gets me crappy gifts or gets me things he likes and the therapist told me I wasn't doing a good enough job letting my H know what I wanted! What?! So this is my fault too?! It was infuriating. That was the end of that.
So, I'm hesitant to put my daughter in that position. I'm sure it works for some people, and maybe it would for her, but not for me unfortunately. 
As long as I am able to handle her need w/out him (which is most of the time), she is unaffected and happily clueless. It's a band-aid, I know, but it's all I have for now.


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## northernlights

H and I went to 4 sessions of marriage counseling and I didn't find it all that helpful. How could it be, when my H's goal is actually to make the marriage NOT work? 

And OMG GIFTS! I wanted a strand of black pearls for YEARS. Every christmas, every birthday I asked... I even found a lovely strand in a store in my parents' hometown and showed him and my mom (and told her how long I'd been asking). Another christmas or birthday passed, no pearls. These weren't even expensive! Finally next christmas or birthday rolls around and I get the pearls! Except my mother told me SHE bought them, handed them to H and told him "Give these to Northern, you owe me $250."

Ha!


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## diwali123

1bzymom said:


> I hadn't considered counseling for her for two reasons:
> First, she's only recently becoming aware and directly affected, and I don't think it's even occurred to her that there is something "wrong".
> Secondly, and mostly, based on my own experience with counseling. I tried talking to a therapist about my issues with my husband. This was before I had a name for it. I would go on and on about how he didn't talk to me when I tried to discuss our relationship. The therapist told me to use the "I feel" approach. And be sure to not put things on him, but make them about my feelings. Ok. Tried that. Got nothing. Still the therapist advised me to try this or that and somehow always made me feel like it was my fault or there was something I must have been doing or not doing.
> Once I told the therapist my husband gets me crappy gifts or gets me things he likes and the therapist told me I wasn't doing a good enough job letting my H know what I wanted! What?! So this is my fault too?! It was infuriating. That was the end of that.
> So, I'm hesitant to put my daughter in that position. I'm sure it works for some people, and maybe it would for her, but not for me unfortunately.
> As long as I am able to handle her need w/out him (which is most of the time), she is unaffected and happily clueless. It's a band-aid, I know, but it's all I have for now.


What a bad therapist! It's just like any other profession; you have to find someone you fit well with. 
The MC I had w my ex was horrible. We were hemmoraging and he was trying to put band aids on. He couldn't see the big picture at all.


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## 1bzymom

My best friend is married to a big lug of a guy who, while I love him, comes across as a total neanderthal. He's loud, rude, he say's ridiculous things to her. I'll admit, there was a time I thought my man was so much better than hers. 
Anyway, one year (their twentieth) he gave her a photo album. This knuckle dragger spent months in his man-cave putting together a photo album of their life together and kept it hidden so he could surprise her! I thought it was the sweetest thing. I was amazed that he would put the thought and the time into doing that for her. And I realized that's what people do when they love you. And I started to realize I didn't have that.


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## 1bzymom

Yes, Diwali, he was a bad therapist! And I know if I put the time and effort in I could probably find a better one. It's something I need to work on. 
All that "I feel" talk I think just gave my H more to use against me. Like "well I don't know why you feel that way" which would make me question it myself. He would never say "i'm sorry you feel that way". And there is definitely a difference. The more I said "I feel" the more it made it about me, which was the opposite of what I was going for of course. "I feel" like it just didn't help at all, lol.


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## diwali123

1bzymom said:


> My best friend is married to a big lug of a guy who, while I love him, comes across as a total neanderthal. He's loud, rude, he say's ridiculous things to her. I'll admit, there was a time I thought my man was so much better than hers.
> Anyway, one year (their twentieth) he gave her a photo album. This knuckle dragger spent months in his man-cave putting together a photo album of their life together and kept it hidden so he could surprise her! I thought it was the sweetest thing. I was amazed that he would put the thought and the time into doing that for her. And I realized that's what people do when they love you. And I started to realize I didn't have that.


Shortly after the separation he let our house get foreclosed on and I had to move in with my mother. I was beyond bitter. I watched "what dreams may come" and couldn't finish it because I was crying my eyes out thinking that a man would literally go to hell for his wife but mine couldn't be bothered to lift a finger to do anything in our marriage.


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## diwali123

1bzymom said:


> Yes, Diwali, he was a bad therapist! And I know if I put the time and effort in I could probably find a better one. It's something I need to work on.
> All that "I feel" talk I think just gave my H more to use against me. Like "well I don't know why you feel that way" which would make me question it myself. He would never say "i'm sorry you feel that way". And there is definitely a difference. The more I said "I feel" the more it made it about me, which was the opposite of what I was going for of course. "I feel" like it just didn't help at all, lol.


Your first visit should be an interview. You can ask for a free 15 minute meeting to see if you match up sometimes. 

Oh that's nothing! One time we were talking about finances AGAIN. And I decided to try the mirroring technique. I thought it would help to gain clarity. 
So he said something like "we can't do this and it's not going to work, I am not filing for bankruptcy because we will lose the house."

I said "so you are saying you feel like nothing will work and if we BK we have to lose the house."

He says "don't put words in my mouth. You can't tell me what I said."

Unbelievable!!!


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## 1bzymom

diwali123 said:


> Your first visit should be an interview. You can ask for a free 15 minute meeting to see if you match up sometimes.
> 
> Oh that's nothing! One time we were talking about finances AGAIN. And I decided to try the mirroring technique. I thought it would help to gain clarity.
> So he said something like "we can't do this and it's not going to work, I am not filing for bankruptcy because we will lose the house."
> 
> I said "so you are saying you feel like nothing will work and if we BK we have to lose the house."
> 
> He says "don't put words in my mouth. You can't tell me what I said."
> 
> Unbelievable!!!


OMG I had that experience many, many times. And whenever the therapist would assign me a tactic and would return and report it didn't work he would question me as if I had done it wrong. 
And, wow, that movie, I know what you mean. I said something to my therapist once very similar to the what you said about the movie and how he loved his wife. My therapist told me life was not a movie. 
Ok, I know, but I want to feel loved like that, I told him. I want to feel like my H would move mountains for me like I would for him. Do you know what he told me?! He said that it was unfair of me to expect my husband to be able to love the way I do. That you can't hold other people to your own standards and that I needed to understand his idea of "love" was different than mine. 
Talk about unbelievable! And I bought it. Hook, line and sinker for a long, long time.


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## diwali123

He sounds like a misogynist. (the therapist)

Thing is, I know my husband would try to find me in hell. That's the kind of man he is and I know he would move mountains for me.


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## 1bzymom

Diwali, you're talking about your second husband, right? Admittedly, I'm a little jealous. Sometimes, when I allow myself the fantasy, I imagine I'll find someone to love me like that someday. I'm so happy for you that you did! It gives me a little hope 

Northern, I was wondering about the pearls incident, did your mother find it odd to have to do that? Did you feel embarrassed or anything? Just curious. I find other people, including my own mother but especially his, make excuses for him. Like, "well he's a man, you know how they are, ha ha". That's how my mom would be. And his mother, she blames everything wrong with him on his father. "He's just like his father"... problem is, she divorced his father! She's really not helping, lol.


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## northernlights

diwali123 said:


> He sounds like a misogynist. (the therapist)
> 
> Thing is, I know my husband would try to find me in hell. That's the kind of man he is and I know he would move mountains for me.


I don't know if it's related to him being PA, but my husband can't be bothered to do anything for me. I think that part of our relationship has more to do with his self-absorption, though there's an element of passivity too. And I think ultimately, this is even bigger than the PA as far as where our marriage is at. If I felt loved and cherished, at least I'd have some hope or motivation to keep working. But the sad reality is, he mostly has nothing to do with me, he's PA when we do interact, and I have no feelings or respect for him.


----------



## northernlights

1bzymom said:


> Northern, I was wondering about the pearls incident, did your mother find it odd to have to do that? Did you feel embarrassed or anything? Just curious. I find other people, including my own mother but especially his, make excuses for him. Like, "well he's a man, you know how they are, ha ha". That's how my mom would be. And his mother, she blames everything wrong with him on his father. "He's just like his father"... problem is, she divorced his father! She's really not helping, lol.


My mother is not too impressed with H, but she likes that he makes a good salary. She would support me if I divorced him for a man who makes more money, and has even pointed out men who "would make a good second husband" for me. She's a total mercenary when it comes to marriage. But if I left him without another man on the horizon and just my personal happiness, I don't think she would support that.

I wasn't embarrassed though. Actually, it made me feel validated, like someone else thought he was being ridiculous and I wasn't making too big a deal out of it. 

The rest of my family would support me in a divorce once the kids are big, but not now. I agree that it's best to stay together when the kids are little, and that's why I'm here.


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## diwali123

1bzymom said:


> Diwali, you're talking about your second husband, right? Admittedly, I'm a little jealous. Sometimes, when I allow myself the fantasy, I imagine I'll find someone to love me like that someday. I'm so happy for you that you did! It gives me a little hope
> 
> Northern, I was wondering about the pearls incident, did your mother find it odd to have to do that? Did you feel embarrassed or anything? Just curious. I find other people, including my own mother but especially his, make excuses for him. Like, "well he's a man, you know how they are, ha ha". That's how my mom would be. And his mother, she blames everything wrong with him on his father. "He's just like his father"... problem is, she divorced his father! She's really not helping, lol.


Yes Mu current husband! My real husband. First husband was just a fluke. 
I told myself I would never remarry unless I found superman.


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## diwali123

northernlights said:


> My mother is not too impressed with H, but she likes that he makes a good salary. She would support me if I divorced him for a man who makes more money, and has even pointed out men who "would make a good second husband" for me. She's a total mercenary when it comes to marriage. But if I left him without another man on the horizon and just my personal happiness, I don't think she would support that.
> 
> I wasn't embarrassed though. Actually, it made me feel validated, like someone else thought he was being ridiculous and I wasn't making too big a deal out of it.
> 
> The rest of my family would support me in a divorce once the kids are big, but not now. I agree that it's best to stay together when the kids are little, and that's why I'm here.


I knew I could stay and hang out fur years being miserable. But I thought it would be easier on my d to D before she had any memory of us as a family.


----------



## northernlights

diwali123 said:


> I knew I could stay and hang out fur years being miserable. But I thought it would be easier on my d to D before she had any memory of us as a family.


I agree. If I'd have figured all this out when they were very small, I would have divorced. Honestly, if my older D wasn't so attached to H I'd do it now too. The little one can't stand his BS and she's only 5. But the bigger one would be really upset.


----------



## diwali123

She still has issues but I don't think it's as bad as it would have been.


----------



## pink_lady

northernlights said:


> H and I went to 4 sessions of marriage counseling and I didn't find it all that helpful. How could it be, when my H's goal is actually to make the marriage NOT work?
> 
> And OMG GIFTS! I wanted a strand of black pearls for YEARS. Every christmas, every birthday I asked... I even found a lovely strand in a store in my parents' hometown and showed him and my mom (and told her how long I'd been asking). Another christmas or birthday passed, no pearls. These weren't even expensive! Finally next christmas or birthday rolls around and I get the pearls! Except my mother told me SHE bought them, handed them to H and told him "Give these to Northern, you owe me $250."
> 
> Ha!


This hurts to read. My father and H are like this. I finally figured out it isn't 'normal'. My finances suck now, but it's SO much better to be alone.


----------



## 1bzymom

northernlights said:


> I agree. If I'd have figured all this out when they were very small, I would have divorced. Honestly, if my older D wasn't so attached to H I'd do it now too. The little one can't stand his BS and she's only 5. But the bigger one would be really upset.


It's hard to figure out the "best time". I can come with reasons to leave and reasons to stay. My youngest is 9 and until recently I thought I'd stay 10 more years but lately I'm thinking more like 5. Who knows, I just know it's not now. 
Looking back I saw the first signs of his PA when I was pregnant with my first daughter. I was working 2 jobs and going to school and he was barely working 1. Finally, six months into the pregnancy I told him if he didn't step up we couldn't be together. I would never keep him from his child, but we couldn't be a couple. 
There are times now I wish I'd stuck to that ultimatum. But if I had I wouldn't have my other three and I can't imagine my life without them.


----------



## bailingout

1bzymom said:


> Also, I don't want my feelings to affect their relationship. I want her to have a good relationship with her father, I want all of them to, so I usually bite my tongue and make excuses for him. I don't know what else to do. I'm finding that tactic harder and harder to do.


I think we have all felt like this before, what I have come to accept is that I cannot control this, it is HIS job to create that good relationship with his children, not yours. And if he screws it up, so be it, he will have to live with it although I doubt he will ever suffer from it cuz they're too ignorant to realize that it was HIS fault. Focus on YOUR relationship with them by living and teaching them what a healthy relationship looks like.

My MIL tried to protect H from his awful father by making excuses, and guess what, she failed miserably, H doesnt see his fathers faults, but instead blames it all on his mother. 

Plus by protecting his image, you COULD be sending her down a path to end up w someone just like him, because she thinks that is how it is suppose to be. Don't throw him under the bus, but don't protect him either. 



1bzymom said:


> *He's going to screw up their relationship *and there's probably nothing I can do about it. I can see in her the hurt and confusion his mixed signals cause.


 Yep- he probably will. Teach her what you can about healthy relationships so she will have the knowledge to stay away from an unhealthy one.

A few other good reads are 
Why Does He Do That? Inside the minds of angry & controlling men
CoDependent No More 
Dance with Anger

All of them will help both of you and you can share with her what you learn or decide if she's ready to read them herself.



diwali123 said:


> I knew I could stay and hang out fur years being miserable. But I thought it would be easier on my d to D before she had any memory of us as a family.


 I wish I would have left when D was 1 like I wanted to.


----------



## northernlights

8 year old and I are soooo sick today. Wah. On the plus side, posting when I have a fever is similar to drunken posting, so this could get good. I should add a siggy warning people to just ignore what I say until I'm back to normal. Ha!


----------



## 1bzymom

bailingout said:


> Plus by protecting his image, you COULD be sending her down a path to end up w someone just like him, because she thinks that is how it is suppose to be. Don't throw him under the bus, but don't protect him either.
> 
> Yep- he probably will. Teach her what you can about healthy relationships so she will have the knowledge to stay away from an unhealthy one.
> (



Unfortunately I think that ship has sailed and I've already screwed things up for her. She's 19 and has never had a "relationship". The closest she had was with a guy who had a serious girlfriend. That's right, my daughter was "the other woman." Like most, she was convinced he would leave the girlfriend but after a few months she realized it wasn't the case. She was hurt but survived it. I'm just afraid an unhealthy relationship is going to be the trend for her, which is why I think kind of just encourage not having one at all. (I'm thinking how horrible that sounds as I write it!)

When people ask why she doesn't have a BF (and they do) she just says she doesn't want to be tied down. Which is true. I always joke with my girls that I'm raising them to be man-haters. Sounds terrible I guess but really I just want them to be independent. I tell them they don't need a man or BF and that they should make some of their own dreams come true before they start incorporating someone else's. 

When it comes to her father, she's got as many excuses as he does. Even when she gets angry with him, it's directed at me. And if I seem angry at him for something, it's worse. If I (on the rare occasion) verbalize my discontent with him to her or around her she jumps to his defense immediately. It's funny because sometimes I find myself impressed with her loyalty to him. Sometimes I feel bad for her knowing she doesn't really see the big picture. But I also try to keep in mind that is her father, and I wouldn't disrespect anyone by talking badly about their father to them, let alone my own daughter. My relationship with him and hers are different and I try to respect that. I think that when I see him dropping the ball with her and I do interfere, it's more about protecting her than him. Either way, I'm certainly no example of how to have a healthy relationship. 

What's positive, I think, is that my girls see me as a strong woman. From their perspective, I'm in control. I make decisions. I get things done. I'm hoping those are all good things that will help them be the independent women I want them to. God willing


----------



## bailingout

1bzymom said:


> Unfortunately I think that ship has sailed and I've already screwed things up for her. She's 19 and has never had a "relationship". The closest she had was with a guy who had a serious girlfriend. That's right, my daughter was "the other woman." Like most, she was convinced he would leave the girlfriend but after a few months she realized it wasn't the case. She was hurt but survived it. I'm just afraid an unhealthy relationship is going to be the trend for her, which is why I think kind of just encourage not having one at all. (I'm thinking how horrible that sounds as I write it!)
> 
> When people ask why she doesn't have a BF (and they do) she just says she doesn't want to be tied down. Which is true. I always joke with my girls that I'm raising them to be man-haters. Sounds terrible I guess but really I just want them to be independent. I tell them they don't need a man or BF and that they should make some of their own dreams come true before they start incorporating someone else's.
> 
> When it comes to her father, she's got as many excuses as he does. Even when she gets angry with him, it's directed at me. And if I seem angry at him for something, it's worse. If I (on the rare occasion) verbalize my discontent with him to her or around her she jumps to his defense immediately. It's funny because sometimes I find myself impressed with her loyalty to him. Sometimes I feel bad for her knowing she doesn't really see the big picture. But I also try to keep in mind that is her father, and I wouldn't disrespect anyone by talking badly about their father to them, let alone my own daughter. My relationship with him and hers are different and I try to respect that. I think that when I see him dropping the ball with her and I do interfere, it's more about protecting her than him. Either way, I'm certainly no example of how to have a healthy relationship.
> 
> What's positive, I think, is that my girls see me as a strong woman. From their perspective, I'm in control. I make decisions. I get things done. I'm hoping those are all good things that will help them be the independent women I want them to. God willing


I don't believe it is ever too late or the sailed ship cannot be turned around. Sure, maybe not in the past, but can be redirected in the future.

As for you not being an example of healthy...that may be true, probably true of most of us here whether we want to accept it or not, but the beauty is that we all have the opportunity to change it, and also have the choice of owning up to it by talking to our kids about our mistakes so they can potentially avoid them. Would be tough to have to admit them but the result could change them for the better so to me it would be worth it. 

My MIL is aware of the many mistakes she has made, we had actually talked about quite a few of them in the past. There was a time when she wanted to talk to her kids about them, specifically how she protected their father instead of them, I encouraged her to do so in the hopes that she could salvage her relationship with them but in the end she realized if she did, she had to tell them about her own mistakes. She chose to let them figure it out, sadly, of the 4, only 1 has truly figured it out, and she has basically no real relationship with any of them. Yes they deal with her, out of guilt and obligation, but none of them choose to spend any time with her unless it's a family or holiday thing, and at times, even get together without even telling her. Nice.

As for her taking her anger at him out on you, mine does the same thing. And when she does, I simply tell her I will not tolerate that behavior from her (whatever it is) because she is mad at him. If you're mad at him, have it out with him. She's only 8 and she gets it. She no longer takes it out on me.

The only thing you can do is work on yourself and get yourself to a healthy place despite the unhealthy environment. If you lead, they may follow. I took the lead to get healthy in our house, and my H is starting to follow in some ways. I do see changes in his behaviors but I rarely point them out, but I know that he is learning.

All of the books that have been mentioned have been very helpful for me in many ways. Keep reading, stay focused on you. The rest will work out, one way or another. Good luck!!


----------



## northernlights

Ladies, I'm super sick. Fever of 103 all day and utterly useless and miserable. Finally I went to the doctor and it turns out I have strep throat, which is good at least because it can be treated and I don't just have to wait it out.

But H went to my parents for dinner with our girls instead of right out to the pharmacy to get my antibiotics. Is it just me, or does that kind of suck of him? I'll be starting my medication an hour and a half later than I could have if he gets back soon. WHich he's not. Back yet I mean. I'm too sick to drive so I really need him to go get them.

It's only a 10 minute drive to the pharmacy but I really am too sick to do it myself. He never takes care of me when I'm sick. I want to cry. But maybe the fever is making me a bit irrational??


----------



## diwali123

He should be putting you first ahead of everything. My ex was the same. 
I'm sorry. I don't know how these people can be so heartless.


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## SaltInWound

I'm sorry you are feeling poorly. If I was close by, I would get your meds for you.


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## 1bzymom

I'm sorry you're so sick, Northern. I hope you've gotten your meds by now 

Bailingout, thank you for the kind words. You're right, maybe it's not too late. I should try and have a better outlook! I can only teach them what I know and I am just learning about this myself so maybe in time there can be some understanding. Hopefully.

My H and I are smack in the middle of what I call "the dance" right now and I'm at sort of a crossroads. 
This is how it goes (I'm sure it will sound familiar): 
He didn't do what he was supposed to; 
I wait; 
I eventually have to ask & get mad when he still doesn't do it; 
I wait; 
I ask again, get no response (literally); 
I pour my heart out saying I can't understand why he's like this, he stares blankly at me, the ceiling or his phone. 
Then for a while he avoids me like the plague, and the angrier I seem, the farther he stays away; 
he sleeps on the couch (because he knows I hate that). Eventually I get lonely and tell him to come to bed. 
We have crazy good sex and everything (in his mind) is fine again (as long as I don't try to "talk" to him) until the next time we do "the dance". 

Only this time, I didn't go get him off the couch. It's been a month. About a week ago he started sucking up. Doing things around the house and such. And I haven't acknowledged it. No good jobs or thank yous (usually I have to praise him like a puppy). I haven't asked him for anything or tried to talk to him. We talk, but it's small talk, nothing of a personal nature. I think he is a little confused. 
Then I noticed he was walking around the house shirtless. He has a great body and he knows I'm attracted to him so I think he was actually trying to get me to notice him or something. I kind of got a chuckle out of it actually. So again, I didn't acknowledge it at all. 
So now he's jacked it up to super-suck up mode and he's just being over the top nice. I know what he wants and to be honest a month is a long time for me to go without but if I give in we'll just go back to him thinking everything is fine. 
I'm just trying to dodge him at this point, lol. And I've never done this before. I know what happens if I do go ahead and have sex, I don't know what happens next if I don't! 
I want to say to him, "you're not my friend, you're not my partner, why would I want you as a lover" because that's what I think to myself. But I won't unless he asks me, and chances are he won't do that. 
I honestly think he would go without sex if it meant he didn't have to talk to me! I guess we'll find out...


----------



## Wonderinginnc

northernlights said:


> Ladies, I'm super sick. Fever of 103 all day and utterly useless and miserable. Finally I went to the doctor and it turns out I have strep throat, which is good at least because it can be treated and I don't just have to wait it out.
> 
> But H went to my parents for dinner with our girls instead of right out to the pharmacy to get my antibiotics. Is it just me, or does that kind of suck of him? I'll be starting my medication an hour and a half later than I could have if he gets back soon. WHich he's not. Back yet I mean. I'm too sick to drive so I really need him to go get them.
> 
> It's only a 10 minute drive to the pharmacy but I really am too sick to do it myself. He never takes care of me when I'm sick. I want to cry. But maybe the fever is making me a bit irrational??


Nope, you aren't being irrational. The thing with strep is the first dose of antibiotic is almost a miracle. I feel so much better after the first one, so to deprive you of that for an additional 1 1/2 hours is not right. 

Feel better soon.


----------



## Wonderinginnc

1bzymom said:


> My H and I are smack in the middle of what I call "the dance" right now and I'm at sort of a crossroads.
> This is how it goes (I'm sure it will sound familiar):
> He didn't do what he was supposed to;
> I wait;
> I eventually have to ask & get mad when he still doesn't do it;
> I wait;
> I ask again, get no response (literally);
> I pour my heart out saying I can't understand why he's like this, he stares blankly at me, the ceiling or his phone.
> Then for a while he avoids me like the plague, and the angrier I seem, the farther he stays away;
> he sleeps on the couch (because he knows I hate that). Eventually I get lonely and tell him to come to bed.
> We have crazy good sex and everything (in his mind) is fine again (as long as I don't try to "talk" to him) until the next time we do "the dance".
> 
> Only this time, I didn't go get him off the couch. It's been a month. About a week ago he started sucking up. Doing things around the house and such. And I haven't acknowledged it. No good jobs or thank yous (usually I have to praise him like a puppy). I haven't asked him for anything or tried to talk to him. We talk, but it's small talk, nothing of a personal nature. I think he is a little confused.
> Then I noticed he was walking around the house shirtless. He has a great body and he knows I'm attracted to him so I think he was actually trying to get me to notice him or something. I kind of got a chuckle out of it actually. So again, I didn't acknowledge it at all.
> So now he's jacked it up to super-suck up mode and he's just being over the top nice. I know what he wants and to be honest a month is a long time for me to go without but if I give in we'll just go back to him thinking everything is fine.
> I'm just trying to dodge him at this point, lol. And I've never done this before. I know what happens if I do go ahead and have sex, I don't know what happens next if I don't!
> I want to say to him, "you're not my friend, you're not my partner, why would I want you as a lover" because that's what I think to myself. But I won't unless he asks me, and chances are he won't do that.
> *I honestly think he would go without sex if it meant he didn't have to talk to me! I guess we'll find out.*..


I recognize the dance also. I will say that my husband will definitely go without sex if it meant he didn't have to talk to me. We had a very long discussion about the issues at Thanksgiving of 2010. At that time, I told my husband that I didn't know who he was anymore, and that more importantly, I wasn't sure I wanted to try to get to know him again. I expressed to him that I had no desire for sex until we could iron out these matters. We've never ironed out those matters. I'm not going to write the rest of the story...you can imagine it.


----------



## Wiserforit

1bzymom said:


> . I always joke with my girls that I'm raising them to be man-haters. Sounds terrible I guess but really I just want them to be independent. I tell them they don't need a man or BF and that they should make some of their own dreams come true before they start incorporating someone else's.


You're right. It is terrible. Teaching how to have healthy relationships is a lot better than teaching them to hate men. 

If the only relationship she ever had was being the side snatch of a two-timer... that isn't healthy. 

*northernlights* that is sooooo typical. The best of all possible worlds for the PA is to make you wait on the medicine, then play the victim if you let out so much as a peep about how long it took.


----------



## 1bzymom

Wonderinginnc said:


> We've never ironed out those matters. I'm not going to write the rest of the story...you can imagine it.


My gosh wondering, I can't imagine. I'm afraid if I tried to go without I'd have an affair. And while that might be a sure fire way to end my marriage, he'd get to point all the blame at me. And I'm not going to let that happen. I don't know what I'll do.


----------



## 1bzymom

Wiserforit said:


> You're right. It is terrible. Teaching how to have healthy relationships is a lot better than teaching them to hate men.
> 
> If the only relationship she ever had was being the side snatch of a two-timer... that isn't healthy.


Wiserforit, just let me stress, I said it was a joke. When I speak to them about their futures, rarely do I talk about men. Oh, we talk about cute boys and who's "dating" who, but when talking about their future, their goals, their dreams and the paths they can take to achieve them, I do not include the "and then someday you'll meet the man of your dreams" speech. I encourage them to not subscribe to old school thinking that they should know how to cook and clean and birth babies. The "man-hater" specifically joke came about when we were at a family party once. The party was wrapping up and their cousin's grandmother started gathering all the young girls and marching them into the kitchen. When I asked her what they were doing she said she was going to show them how to properly clean up so they could all be good wives someday. So I told her my girls would be happy to help clean up but they didn't need any training in landing husbands. She laughed, I laughed. And she proceeded to tell my girls not to listen to me, I was a "man-hater". Hence the joke. Albeit not a great one, but a joke nonetheless. 
The truly bad thing is that I lean towards encouraging my girls to avoid relationships I think because I don't know how to teach them about healthy ones. 

As far as my oldest daughter, I agree. And trust me, I told her as much (although I put it a little more tactfully than "side snatch of a two-timer"). But my experience is the more I fought against it, the more she insisted on it. I knew she'd figure it out and learn the hard way. I think I handled it right, after all, she told me about it. She trusted me and I had to trust her, even though it was hard seeing her get hurt.


----------



## Wiserforit

1bzymom said:


> Wiserforit, just let me stress, I said it was a joke.


Often there is truth behind the jokes we tell, and sometimes the only way something important can even be said is to do it in a joking manner. The story you told sure lends itself to that interpretation. 

There just isn't any getting around the "men are bad" lesson here. It's okay to learn how to do something so long as no man is made happy in the process. The fact is your daughters DO need help learning how to land husbands. Just look at the eldest. Howz that workin' for ya? 



> I encourage them to not subscribe to old school thinking that they should know how to cook and clean and birth babies...


Well that certainly is the post-60's meme. It's more or less the pledge of allegiance for women nowadays along with what you said about being "independent", meaning never put yourself in a position of depending on a man.

The problem with that inculcation is that relationships are a very fulfilling part of your life - way more than work or hobbies for many of us - and depending upon each other to fulfill our wants is integral to it. It takes work to have a good relationship, and if the attitude we inculcate is this idea of total self-absorption then of course we never learn how to be giving to our spouse in a way that invites reciprocity from them. 




> The truly bad thing is that I lean towards encouraging my girls to avoid relationships I think because I don't know how to teach them about healthy ones.


Doing no instruction at all is better than bad instruction. Having a good, stable relationship is the very thing that allows young people what they need to flourish in academics, sports, etc. A good partner encourages you in all things and complements you in ways that make the team stronger than the sum of its individual parts.

The post-60's meme is the opposite of course: the theory that you will do better on your own. Having a good relationship is not a goal you are permitted, and of what goals you are permitted a man can only stand in the way of achieving them. The lesson is just what you said: First, achieve all you can be without men. After you are done, then you can have a relationship. 

So you never learn how to take on a partner that enables you to flourish. You are told that isn't even possible. 

If you read much about women who fall for unavailable men, you'll see that it is a case of self-fulfilling prophecy. It caters to our negative beliefs about relationships, love, and ourselves - and ends up confirming them. They have insecurities and self-esteem issues that only get worse with this confirmation.

You didn't tell your daughters that you don't know how to teach them to have a healthy relationship. Shouldn't that be the thing to tell them? Instead of bad instruction? 

Ultimately at the core of this whole thread is believing in oursleves - that we deserve to be treated with respect and honored, supported, and fulfilled - instead of thinking that we can just work harder and harder to fix what we can't change. Falling for the unavailable man is just a different form of the same thing.


----------



## 1bzymom

Wiserforit said:


> Often there is truth behind the jokes we tell, and sometimes the only way something important can even be said is to do it in a joking manner. The story you told sure lends itself to that interpretation.
> 
> There just isn't any getting around the "men are bad" lesson here. It's okay to learn how to do something so long as no man is made happy in the process. The fact is your daughters DO need help learning how to land husbands. Just look at the eldest. Howz that workin' for ya?
> 
> *The "lesson" here is not "men are bad", it's "men are UNNECESSARY". Sure, they're cute, fun, smell good, come in handy sometimes and can be great companions. But so are puppies. And puppies are a lot of work. And, as I tell my girls, just like a puppy, relationships take work and you shouldn't get into one (just because you "should" have a bf) before you're ready to commit to that kind of work.
> 
> I disagree entirely that my girls need help learning how to land husbands. That's nonsense. Need help learning how to have a good relationship, sure. But "land a husband", please.
> And as far as my oldest, that's workin' for me just fine, thanks. Like I said, we're close, she tells me everything. That's pretty rare. That's trust. Trust that I won't judge her like people of your ilk. You can't help who you have feelings for. You can't tell someone how to have a good relationship either, because you can't account for their feelings. You just can't. She followed her heart , not the ideal situation and certainly not what I want for her, but how could I blame her?! And she paid a hefty price for it, the last thing she needs is more from my end.
> *
> Well that certainly is the post-60's meme. It's more or less the pledge of allegiance for women nowadays along with what you said about being "independent", meaning never put yourself in a position of depending on a man.
> 
> *You'd be surprised at the pressure still put on young women to be in relationships. Also, depending on a man an being dependent of a man are two different things. I encourage my girls to be independent, yes. Meaning that when they do have relationships, they have their own means and if that relationship turns out to be the wrong one, they have the resources to get out.*
> 
> 
> 
> Doing no instruction at all is better than bad instruction. Having a good, stable relationship is the very thing that allows young people what they need to flourish in academics, sports, etc. A good partner encourages you in all things and complements you in ways that make the team stronger than the sum of its individual parts.
> 
> The post-60's meme is the opposite of course: the theory that you will do better on your own. Having a good relationship is not a goal you are permitted, and of what goals you are permitted a man can only stand in the way of achieving them. The lesson is just what you said: First, achieve all you can be without men. After you are done, then you can have a relationship.
> 
> So you never learn how to take on a partner that enables you to flourish. You are told that isn't even possible.
> 
> If you read much about women who fall for unavailable men, you'll see that it is a case of self-fulfilling prophecy. It caters to our negative beliefs about relationships, love, and ourselves - and ends up confirming them. They have insecurities and self-esteem issues that only get worse with this confirmation.
> 
> You didn't tell your daughters that you don't know how to teach them to have a healthy relationship. Shouldn't that be the thing to tell them? Instead of bad instruction?
> 
> Ultimately at the core of this whole thread is believing in oursleves - that we deserve to be treated with respect and honored, supported, and fulfilled - instead of thinking that we can just work harder and harder to fix what we can't change. Falling for the unavailable man is just a different form of the same thing.


The rest of what you said just made me tired to tell you the truth. Once upon a time women were told to be mothers & housewives, then they were told not to, have a career instead. Nowadays they're expected to do it all. And they can, just all in good time. So, thanks for the input, but I will continue to raise my little man-haters and prepare them to take over the world.


----------



## Wiserforit

1bzymom said:


> The rest of what you said just made me tired to tell you the truth...


Exactly what I was saying about the post-60's meme. Men are just puppies. 

A man can't improve a woman's life and help her achieve her goals in education, work, civic society, etc. Because they're only pets. 

If a man equated women to dogs on this forum, there would be a firestorm. No skin off my back though - I have one that thinks I'm the King.


----------



## northernlights

Wiserforit said:


> Ultimately at the core of this whole thread is believing in oursleves - that we deserve to be treated with respect and honored, supported, and fulfilled - instead of thinking that we can just work harder and harder to fix what we can't change. Falling for the unavailable man is just a different form of the same thing.


:iagree:

We wouldn't be here if ultimately, we didn't want a partner in life. I'm reading The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People, and the synergistic, interdependent relationship where two people together accomplish more than the sum of what they could each do on their own, is what I think all of us really want.


Thanks for the well wishes! I finally got the antibiotics around 7 and my fever started to break at around 8:30. I was a sweaty mess but I think it's a step forward. Still feel nauseous, light-headed, and have a sore throat, but definitely on the mend.

Also, I hear you all on the sex thing. H is the same way, if he's getting it then he thinks there are 0 problems in the relationship. Is it overly pessimistic to think that's all he wants from me? THat he doesn't care if I'm happy so long as he's getting some? I can't figure out how else to interpret it.


----------



## 1bzymom

Wiserforit, if you truly did misinterpret my words as an attempt to debase men at large and you felt the need to represent in their defense, my apologies to you and your gender. 
From my perspective the analogy was between puppies and relationships; not puppies and men. I didn't say they (men) couldn't be helpful (in all the ways you pointed out); I said they weren't necessary (to have all the things you pointed out). 
Twisting someone's words is quite manipulative, but I guess you'd already know that.


----------



## 1bzymom

Northern, I'm glad to hear you've got your medicine and are on the road to recovery. I hope you are able to get some rest. 

I don't think it's overly pessimistic at all, I think the same thing often. He most especially doesn't care about my happiness when I don't agree with him or God forbid if I want to talk. And I don't think it would occur to him in a million years to do something just because it might make me happy. 
Once we argued over a screen door for months and I eventually said "can't we just get it because it would make me happy; why can't 'because I want it' be enough of a reason for you?!". He had no reply, it made no sense at all to him. "What did my happiness have to do with a screen door?", I guess was his thinking...?? I had my brother put the door in the following year. 
Anyway, point is, our happiness doesn't seem to be a consideration of theirs.


----------



## bailingout

Northernlights--I'm glad you're feeling better and sorry that your H did that. I'm sure you're not surprised, you being sick isn't about HIM, therefore, well you know how it goes. I guess the silver lining is that at least he took the kids so you got to suffer in solitude. Anyway, hope you're back on your feet.

1bzymom- The only way anything is going to change is to change yourself and hope that he joins you for the journey.

Start with your anger--anger comes from within. He cannot make you angry, no one can make another person angry, therefore the only person who can control YOUR anger is YOU. With these types of men, they try to make you angry, to stop it, you have to control it. Do not let him see you angry, frustrated, etc. He will stop some of the crap as soon as he realizes it doesn't work anymore.

The Dance- do not participate. Ask him to do something once, and let it go. Let him suffer the consequences of his actions (make sure you protect yourself tho) and act like it doesn't bother you in the slightest.

Sex- if you want sex, have sex. Don't do it for him, do it because you want to. I told H the same thing before, You're not my partner, my friend, why in the hell would I want to have sex with you? He doesn't get it. I decided not to deprive myself of it, despite the fact that he may think everything is ok. I don't care what he thinks, I have sex when I want sex, to fulfill my own need for sex, and because it is just plain wrong to cheat, fine, I'll F U. Whatever. But I will mention that I am one of the rare women who can have completely unemotional sex with someone, just for the sake of having sex to fulfill MY need for sex. I don't care what he benefits from it, what he thinks about it, or anything else, I do it for ME.

I do agree partly in your theory of teaching your girls to not need a man. I will teach mine to be completely independent of a man (in all aspects), to not rely on one, but to be with a man because she *wants* to (hopefully she meets one who shares the same opinion), not because she thinks she needs one. I used to think I needed H and that I couldn't live without him. Now I know I am with him because I *want* to be, at least for the time being to see if I can save this marriage, but if he came home tomorrow and said he was leaving, I would just say, ok. Bye and of course take half of everything cuz it's half mine. I don't need him anymore, although it would suck cuz my life would change drastically, I would be just fine.

One a side note, you have stop trying to control what he does, stop worrying about what he thinks, stop protecting him from his own choices, focus on you and your kids. 

You have alot of work to do. Start with detaching. Establish and enforce boundaries and consequences. It will be a slow process and no one can predict how it will turn out. Even if the marriage still fails, at least you'll re-emerge on the other side a healthier person who may find another healthy person rather than another unhealthy one.

Oh, and stop relying on him for anything. Always have an alternative plan. If you ask him to do something that you physically cannot do, know what you will do if he chooses not to do it. Don't ask for something if you don't have a backup plan to take care of it yourself. Allow him to be the man in your life, but don't rely on him. Give him the chance to be the other parent, but don't rely on him to deliver.


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## northernlights

bailingout said:


> You have alot of work to do. Start with detaching. Establish and enforce boundaries and consequences. It will be a slow process and no one can predict how it will turn out. Even if the marriage still fails, at least you'll re-emerge on the other side a healthier person who may find another healthy person rather than another unhealthy one.


I really struggled with this advice when I first got it, because I couldn't see how it could repair the marriage. If I detached, that'd be it, right? But, the objective is to detach from the old marriage so that you can start a new one, on a clean slate. The catch is, he'll have to decide on his own to come along for the ride. I'm buying a lot of books and leaving them around so he can read them too if he chooses, but that's it. 

So far I've really learned a LOT about myself. Like, my relationships before H? Engaged (to another woman while we were dating), engaged (to another woman while we were dating), gay, alcoholic. Pattern of choosing emotionally unavailable men anyone? 

I also resisted because I was afraid that even IF H changed, I wouldn't be able to forgive him and move on. But then, the divorce would be my fault, and I didn't want that. Now, I realize that I'm only human. If he changes and I can't move past what's already happened, well, that sucks, but I'm only human. I shouldn't cling to my own martyrdom so that I can be "right" at the expense of giving the marriage a final chance. 

So, yeah. Learning a lot. Lots of reading, lots of confronting the parts of myself that I wish would just go away.


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## bailingout

bailingout said:


> You have alot of work to do. Start with detaching. Establish and enforce boundaries and consequences. It will be a slow process and no one can predict how it will turn out. Even if the marriage still fails, at least you'll re-emerge on the other side a healthier person who may find another healthy person rather than another unhealthy one.


Just a quick note for the record, this statement applies to everyone here, not just northernlights or 1bzymom. 



northernlights said:


> I really struggled with this advice when I first got it, because I couldn't see how it could repair the marriage. If I detached, that'd be it, right? But, the objective is to detach from the old marriage so that you can start a new one, on a clean slate. The catch is, he'll have to decide on his own to come along for the ride. I'm buying a lot of books and leaving them around so he can read them too if he chooses, but that's it.


I actually looked at detachment from a different perspective. I didn't look at it as if I was detaching from the marriage itself, but rather I was detaching from H emotionally to get back my own individuality. I had to detach from the effect he had on me and realized that I needed to take control MYSELF in spite of what he did or how I viewed what he did or didn't do. It doesn't mean that I agree with his choices, but that I accept his choices (as he controls them) and I would not allow them to effect me any longer. *He has the right to make his own choices regardless of how I feel about them, but I control the effect they have on me.*

Ex: If he gets mad about something, I have to look at it with clear vision and decide if my offense was worthly of his angered response. If his anger was because I was being unfair, then I could choose to adjust my behavior. If I thought I was being fair and it was a control issue or something on his part, it was his anger for HIM to deal with and I wouldn't allow his anger to effect me. 

Here's a specific ex. 

On a Tuesday, H asked me to fill out some paperwork for a project we were going to do. I said I would and continued on what I was already doing. He walked around for a minute and came back and asked me *when* was I going to do it? (aka DO IT NOW because I think I control you. lol) I told him later because...
1. I was already doing something and I had committed to being somewhere, and 
2. we still needed some additional paperwork. I told him I would do it as soon as we received the additional paperwork. (We had already wasted hours with this project via verbal agreement and I wasn't spending any time on it this time until I had everything SIGNED and in my hands.) 

He wanted me to stop what I was doing and got mad when I refused. He was trying to control my time, and because I didn't allow it, he got mad. His body language was clear, huffy, puffy, snippy, mumbling, finally grabbed his stuff and was headed for the door, and said, "I'll see ya later" in a pissed off tone and slammed the door. No communication on where he was headed, when he'd be back, nothing. He was pissed and he was leaving. 

(A side note--- in the past I would have gone out and argued, defended or attempted to get him to see it from my point of view or maybe called him later. No more, if he gets mad about something that I feel is fair and reasonable, so be it.) 

I opened the door and said "wow...I can't believe you're pissed because I won't stop what I'm doing, well, have a great day and enjoy your anger". I closed the door, and went about my day unaffected. 

Tues night, when he returned, I acted like it had never happened, starting updating him on the things of the day or whatever else that I needed to fill him in on. I never mentioned the paperwork again. 

Wed morning, he told me the signed docs were in his email , did I want him to print them, I said "Yes please". He did. 

As luck would have it, I woke up w a horrible backache and couldn't move. Spent the day on ice on the couch, guess what...no way was I doing that paperwork then and as this wasn't the first time I've had this back issue, he knew I be doing the bare minimum that day. 

He left and returned around lunchtime and mentioned a new discovery about the project. I asked him what he thought about the new discovery and he replied in a nasty tone--"what difference does it make the paperworks not done anyway." (So here we go with the PA nastyness because I didn't allow him to control me yesterday or take responsibility for HIS anger.) I looked at him in the eyes, with a straight face, in a calm but stern tone and said "that comment was unnecessary and I don't appreciate your snarky tone." I turned back to what I was doing--watching TV laying on ice. I didn't say another word, he knew the only way he was going to get my cooperation was to play my way (like a respectable adult), or it wouldn't get done at all. 

He got up and pulled the huffy, puffy thing again for a few minutes. He returned, this time in control of HIMSELFand proceeded to participate in a normal, adult, communicative exchange. 

Thurs morning, I did the paperwork, gave it to him to take the next necessary step and we are still proceeding with the project, in a way 2 adults on a project SHOULD work together. 

They can control their behavior, we just have to force it by remaining in *control of ourselves * and ignoring their crap back by NOT responding to, contributing to, or taking responsibility for it, in any way shape or form, as long as we are being fair. 



northernlights said:


> So far I've really learned a LOT about myself. Like, my relationships before H? Engaged (to another woman while we were dating), engaged (to another woman while we were dating), gay, alcoholic. Pattern of choosing emotionally unavailable men anyone? .


I hope your new life prevents this in the future, with or without your current H, but as they say, healthy people attract other healthy people, unhealthly people attract other unhealthy people. I used to be really unhealthy, now I'm a work in progress to the other side.



northernlights said:


> I also resisted because I was afraid that even IF H changed, I wouldn't be able to forgive him and move on. But then, the divorce would be my fault, and I didn't want that. Now, I realize that I'm only human. If he changes and I can't move past what's already happened, well, that sucks, but I'm only human. I shouldn't cling to my own martyrdom so that I can be "right" at the expense of giving the marriage a final chance.


My biggest obstacle was....why should I do it for us? No one has come to pull me from the trenches of myself, why in the hell should I pull him from his trenches? Why should I save him, or this marriage if he doesn't care enough to look at himself? Believe me I struggled with that one for months....and then I realized, well, I've got 20+ yrs invested, a kid, a pretty good life, a good looking 40+ yr old husband, (not many of those out there)....could I let MY OWN PRIDE/ego/stubborness etc stand in the way. Or do I give it one last true shot and if it fails, know I did all I could have possibly done. The outcome will be revealed in time. With or without him, I know I will be a healthier person in the end. If we stay together, we will both be healthier, I win. If we part, I will be healthier and likely attract a healthier person, I win. As I see it, I win either way. I keep that in mnd, rather than obsessing about the fact that I had to drag a grown man along with me. 

I know my way may not appeal to some and that's ok. I live my life, others can live theirs. 



northernlights said:


> So, yeah. Learning a lot. Lots of reading, lots of confronting the parts of myself that I wish would just go away.


That's the beauty of it, they CAN go away, and I've started to figure out how to make that happen.


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## bailingout

Northernlights, oh just a few things I didn't mention in the other post.

I too have learned ALOT by reading. I don't bother leaving the books for H to read. Why one might wonder? Well, it's useless. He has the mentality that "you are what you read". I have no idea where that comes from, probably his father as his mother had every self help book you could imagine and looked to all of them to fix her spouse. She did not figure out it was within herself.

The funniest part of it is that he at times seems to actually believe that I am not in contol of my own mind, like somehow someone else is thinking for me. Everytime I did come up with something, he would ask me who told me that or where did I read that, like there was no possibility I could actually come up with something all by myself.

He has said that our marriage problems are caused by my girlfriends, the internet, books, media. 


He also appears to not understand that we are 2 individual people. He doesn't seem to understand that my beliefs, opinions or feelings are MINE. HIS are HIS. He thinks HIS are mine, and mine are wrong. lol Many times I just shake my head in disbelif at some of the things that come out of his mouth.

Boundries-when I first starting learning about them I thought they were a tool to control other people. OH my how wrong I was, now I understand them completely. THank GOD.

Oh the MIL called me today, I didn't answer so she left a message. (I thought it was odd that she actually called from a home phone, they ALWAYS text to avoid any verbal communication then I remembered her cell died and she can't afford a new one.) Anyway, BIL asked her to print something for him (she said yes) but has discovered her printer is dead, so she called me to see if I was home so I could print it for him to pick up. Here is the problem as I see it, BIL asked MIL to do something, she said yes and discovered she couldn't. Instead of calling BIL and saying, sorry I can't do it my printer died, and let him figure it out, she adds it to her plate, now she's involved someone else (me), took on his responsibility (she's being his savior) and can add her good deed (mama fixed it) to her arsenalt to be used later, probably in the form of guilt aimed at BIL.

These people are a piece of work I'll tell ya.


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## northernlights

bailingout, I read your posts and loved them, but I'm too sick to respond. Fever's spiked back up and feeling horrid. Was feeling much better for a few hours there this afternoon, but evenings are always worse when I'm sick.


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## diwali123

I'm curious, do your exes or spouses do this? They ask if you like something and you say no. They say ok. 
Or they try to talk you out of it and tell you why you are wrong for not liking tomatoes or horror movies. 
And then they "forget" and still try to get you to eat tomatoes or watch horror movies, and act surprised, offended, try to talk you out of it again. 
Or your dislike of it comes back in a fight when they tell you that you are responsible for them not being able to do XYZ because you won't do it with them.


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## 1bzymom

Bailingout I think anger is exactly what my problem is right now. I am angry and every time I think about the situation and go back and forth from feeling sorry for him to thinking he's a jerk I always come back to anger. Not so much at him, but that this is my life. I know that sounds so selfish but it's the truth. 
Like you said, I want to be here. I have 22 years, 4 kids and a good looking 40something as well (wonder if that's a commonality?); I have a pretty good life. Why can't it just actually be as good as it looks on paper?! That makes me angry. 
But you're right, I need to shake the anger in general to move forward. Working on it. 
Like you said, I have a lot of work to do. It's overwhelming. 

Diwali, after 20+ years he doesn't do that anymore, but he did. It was usually over music. He likes heavy metal and I have no time for it. I've never begrudged him his music and we have plenty of other music we both enjoy so I don't really care. Never did. He did though. He used to say "just listen to this part" and I would. 
He'd look at me and I'd say "cool" or "ok" or "great" or whatever, smiling. 
Then he'd get mad, shake his head and say "nevermind!"
I'd say, "what?". 
"You just don't get it, you have to LISTEN". 
"Um, I did listen..." in bewilderment (seriously thinking in my head 'what the hell is happening here?'). 
"NEVERMIND" with a huff and a puff and a stomp away. 
We must have went through that a thousand times. Oh, the joyous memories...


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## bailingout

Northernlights- I'm so sorry you have had a relapse for the worse. I hope today is better. HUGS.

Diwali- Yes, the only thing I can come up with as to why people do that is because they do not truly embrace individuality. People who embrace individuality by accepting and respecting others likes/dislikes/opinions or feelings do not have a need to hammer their own preferences onto others. I wonder if it's a result of immaturity or just not being raised in an accepting environment that encouraged individuality. 

1bzymom- Ah anger, yes very difficult to avoid. For me, once I fully accepted that every person is entitled to make their own choices, regardless of how I felt about them, which basically meant not trying to control others, anger became a distant memory. I do often shake my head in disbelief or utter confusion at the choices H makes at times, but I rarely get the feeling of anger anymore. 



1bzymom said:


> I am angry and *every time I think about the situation* and go back and forth from feeling sorry for him to thinking he's a jerk I always come back to anger. Not so much at him, but that this is my life. I know that sounds so selfish but it's the truth.
> Like you said, I want to be here. I have 22 years, 4 kids and a good looking 40something as well (wonder if that's a commonality?); I have a pretty good life. *Why can't it just actually be as good as it looks on paper?! *That makes me angry.
> But you're right, I need to shake the anger in general to move forward. Working on it.
> Like you said, I have a lot of work to do. It's overwhelming.


One way to combat that is to stay focused on today and tomorrow and what lies ahead, not what's behind you already. You cannot change the past, but you can set the future up to what you want it to be. It can be as good as it looks on paper, but you will have to be the one to get it to that place.


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## northernlights

on anger-- Mine didn't start to dissipate until I felt validated. First I searched for it from other people, which helped some, but then something just clicked for me and I realized that I was really seeking validation from myself. So I just kind of said to myself, yes, what he's done over the years was super sh!tty, and you have every right to feel the way you do.

No expectations of getting over it instantly, or feeling forgiveness, just (in the words of Melody Beattie), "sitting with it" for a while. (I can be impatient, so old me would expect a sudden flash of peace or understanding or something with that kind of self-validating step). I don't know how long it took, but the anger has really reduced.


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## SaltInWound

northernlights said:


> No expectations of getting over it instantly, or feeling forgiveness, just (in the words of Melody Beattie), "sitting with it" for a while. (*I can be impatient*, so old me would expect a sudden flash of peace or understanding or something with that kind of self-validating step). I don't know how long it took, but the anger has really reduced.


I am curious. Did your impatience result from years of dealing with passive aggressiveness?


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## northernlights

SaltInWound said:


> I am curious. Did your impatience result from years of dealing with passive aggressiveness?


Lol, no, unfortunately this one is all me. But, I think it's one of the reasons that I had a hard time seeing H for what he is for a long time. Like, if he was doing something super slowly, I'd jump in and take over because I'm impatient and I know it, and sometimes I'd rather just do things myself. Ok usually I'd rather just do things myself! I thought it was a couples-quirk of ours. It wasn't until kids came along, and slowly but surely I had taken over doing _everything_, that I started to see the problem.

Even then, I think I handled it well at first; had a series of heart-to-hearts with H, told him I was sorry for asking for a change in our fundamental dynamic but that I needed more from him, asked him for one or two very specific things at first (this was the taking care of the kids in the morning conversation so I could get a little sleep). And he totally agreed, said he wanted to help me, said he'd take the kids out for pancakes at our favorite diner and let me sleep... and it just never happened. 

That was the turning point for me, when I realized it wasn't just that we'd both gotten into a rut that needed changing, but that there was something much more serious going on. All of a sudden I could look back and see that pattern of me asking for very simple things, and H saying "sure, no problem," and then... nothing. 

So then I got depressed and much more impatient, then I got him to see a neurologist because I was afraid he really was forgetting and he had the same unknown dementia his father has (which was clearly affecting his father by 55, so early onset). Then that came back inconclusive frankly, so in December we repeat the testing and I find out if my life is going to completely and utterly fall apart, or just need some re-arranging. The fear of the former is so overwhelming, I'll be happy if it's just severe PA.

Sorry so long. Still feverish. H had to comment multiple times on how at least the medication/doctor's visit wasn't too expensive. Too sick to want to punch him, we have plenty of money, and he's whining about $100 when I'm SO freaking sick? Who does that????


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## bailingout

northernlights said:


> on anger-- Mine didn't start to dissipate until I felt validated. First I searched for it from other people, which helped some, but then something just clicked for me and I realized that I was really seeking validation from myself. So I just kind of said to myself, yes, what he's done over the years was super sh!tty, and you have every right to feel the way you do.


Oh the mountains of anger as a result of being invalidated. The odd thing is that I have never been one to need validation from others, what infuriated me was that I thought he was doing it on purpose. 

As I was struggling to figure out why he couldn't see what he was doing, we had dinner at his parents, as I sat there watching and listening, I realized both of his parents (mostly FIL) repeatedly invalidated anything anyone said. Everything out of this mans mouth was "You don't know what you talking about", "That's just ridicoulas." "You cant be serious." "What are you an idiot". At one point, SIL turned around and looked at me with a look on her face that said it all---She was actually looking to see if I had lept out of my chair to pound FILs head into the table. I could see her eyes beginning to tear up as MIL & my H were the main targets and we were both witnessing it. 

It hit me all of a sudden and that piece of the puzzle was in clear view. H was never validated by his own parents, so had no idea how to validate another. I realized right then that he wasn't doing it on purpose. I shed quite a bit of empathy for him at that moment, no child deserves to be treated by their own parents like that. It doesn't excuse H, but it does shed some light.

SIL and I talked about it later, she was hit hard at the reality of her parents, she had been denying how horrible they were, but she couldn't deny it anymore as she knew I saw it too. To this day, when we are all together and the invalidation abuse begins, she looks at me for strength and courage and we fight it off together, regardless of who the target is. 

After that day, anger caused by invalidation from H, gone by the wayside. Another step accomplished. 



northernlights said:


> Like, if he was doing something super slowly, I'd jump in and take over because *I'm impatient and I know it*, and sometimes I'd rather just do things myself. Ok usually I'd rather just do things myself! I thought it was a couples-quirk of ours. It wasn't until kids came along, and slowly but surely I had taken over doing everything, that I started to see the problem.


I am wondering if you think this (bolded above) is exactly why you were his target from the beginning? He knew he could depend on you to do it all, motivated all by yourself, by your own self awareness of your own impatience. Sneaky bastards!!!! lol





northernlights said:


> H had to comment multiple times on how at least the medication/doctor's visit wasn't too expensive. Too sick to want to punch him, we have plenty of money, and he's whining about $100 when I'm SO freaking sick? Who does that????


I'd be willing to bet that he doesn't whine about it when he's spending it on himself. Does he?


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## northernlights

bailingout said:


> It hit me all of a sudden and that piece of the puzzle was in clear view. H was never validated by his own parents, so had no idea how to validate another. I realized right then that he wasn't doing it on purpose. I shed quite a bit of empathy for him at that moment, no child deserves to be treated by their own parents like that. It doesn't excuse H, but it does shed some light.


My MIL isn't quite as bad as your FIL, or maybe she is. She isn't so obvious in her methods, it's more that she turns things back around to herself every time. Like, I told my MIL when we were living near them that I was worried about my uncle who had just been diagnosed with multiple brain aneurysms and was going to need several brain surgeries. She immediately started telling me a hugely long story about her hospital roommate's son who also had a brain aneurysm. Not a short attempt at reassuring me that lots of people pull through (this guy had multiple deficiencies as a result), just going on and on about this guy and his mom and never again asking about my uncle. So, she adds her own unique blend of narcissism to the issue.

I do understand how difficult it was for H was he was a child. That's what kept me around for so long. But I'm getting to the place where if adult H won't try to pull his sh!t together, I'm not going to be his whipping boy for the rest of my life.



bailingout said:


> I am wondering if you think this (bolded above) is exactly why you were his target from the beginning? He knew he could depend on you to do it all, motivated all by yourself, by your own self awareness of your own impatience. Sneaky bastards!!!! lol


I think it was more sub-conscious. All he knew was that I was willing to do the things for him that he didn't want to. He's not an especially deep thinker, my H.



bailingout said:


> I'd be willing to bet that he doesn't whine about it when he's spending it on himself. Does he?



How on earth did you know?!


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## bailingout

northernlights said:


> My MIL isn't quite as bad as your FIL, or maybe she is. She isn't so obvious in her methods, it's more that she turns things back around to herself every time. Like, I told my MIL when we were living near them that I was worried about my uncle who had just been diagnosed with multiple brain aneurysms and was going to need several brain surgeries. She immediately started telling me a hugely long story about her hospital roommate's son who also had a brain aneurysm. Not a short attempt at reassuring me that lots of people pull through (this guy had multiple deficiencies as a result), just going on and on about this guy and his mom and never again asking about my uncle. So, she adds her own unique blend of narcissism to the issue.


Ahh but she may be. IMO this seems to be an example of a passive invalidation combined with the narc. You see your story about your uncle is awful, (btw- hope he is better) so she has to one up ya by minimizing your story with hers (the guys & his mom- likely not even a relative). No one could possibly be as important as her involvement in anothers story. I can't tell you how many times I hear H trying to one-up everyone else. Makes my stomach crawl.



northernlights said:


> I do understand how difficult it was for H was he was a child. That's what kept me around for so long. But I'm getting to the place where if adult H won't try to pull his sh!t together, I'm not going to be his whipping boy for the rest of my life.
> 
> I think it was more sub-conscious. All he knew was that I was willing to do the things for him that he didn't want to. He's not an especially deep thinker, my H.


I'm not surprised he's not a deep thinker, neither is H, about as far from it as one can get. That's why there is no talking to them about any of it, you have to lead by actions. 

Expecting your adult H to pull his **** together is going to be next to nearly impossible on his own. I would guess that his mental/emotional age is way below his actual physical age, which could explain why these things can't be talked out as we all know. It's almost as if we have to teach them what their own parents failed to do.





northernlights said:


> How on earth did you know?!


:lol: Been there, done that. :rofl:


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## northernlights

bailingout said:


> Expecting your adult H to pull his **** together is going to be next to nearly impossible on his own. I would guess that his mental/emotional age is way below his actual physical age, which could explain why these things can't be talked out as we all know. It's almost as if we have to teach them what their own parents failed to do.


Yeah, mentally/emotionally I'd put him at about 14. 

When we saw the marriage counselor, she very candidly told us that H was "stuck in his own bubble" (which I think was a nice way of saying self-centered?) but that he could certainly be helped, though he was looking at 3 - 4 years of therapy. 

He went once.

I'm stuck between finding him a new therapist (we've moved) and making him go, or letting things keep on as they are (deteriorating) until he decides he needs to go. I think the latter is my only option, because unless he goes to therapy with the intent to engage and do the work, it'll be useless, right?


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## northernlights

Also, OT, but fever is back again today. It was (daytime peaks) 103 on tuesday, 100.8 wednesday, 101.2 today, BUT I hadn't taken any fever-lowering medication all day. Not time to head back to the doctor yet, right? I wait until it shows continuous upward trend or breaks 103 again?


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## diwali123

I just marvel at the patience some of you have.


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## bailingout

northernlights said:


> I'm stuck between finding him a new therapist (we've moved) and making him go, or letting things keep on as they are (deteriorating) until he decides he needs to go. I think the latter is my only option, because unless he goes to therapy with the intent to engage and do the work, it'll be useless, right?


I doubt at this point he thinks he needs to go so he wouldn't embrace it and it'd be a waste of money. 

Truthfully I don't have much faith in therapists anymore, I used to think they could really help people, and maybe some of the good ones can, but I've had very limited therapy and think I am doing much better personally that even I would have expected. Don't get me wrong, I have a loooong way to go, but it seems like as time passes and I keep reading and learning, a new piece is finally fitting together. 

Looking back I can see so many things that I couldn't see at the time, including how I contributed, and it continues to evolve regularly. 

It almost seems that it's getting easier for me to pinpoint an issue, understanding where it's coming from, how I want it to be and finally the boundary/consequences to get there. Once I do that, I give it some time of "minding my own side of the street" in regards to my own behavior and how I react to H, and he seems to be responding to my lead. 

Like this morning, he asked what we had going on Sun? I told him "X". Normally that would be it. End of conversation, if I wondered why he was asking (in my mind the only reason to care what it going on days in advance is because I had something come up for that day and wanted to see if I should/would commit), well, I had to ask. But this morning when I told him, he came back with, "Ok, I have to do X but should be done by then." To me that is HUGE progress, I actually know what he has planned 3 days in advance. Far cry from him leaving daily and me having no clue where to or when he'd be back. 

Another reason I have lost faith in therapy is, well, I know 2 psychotherapists (a local friend) and one licensed mental health counselor. 1 is divorced, 1 has a horrible marriage and she's an alcoholic (my friend) and the other (LMHC) appears to have a decent relationship but the jokes she makes about her behavior lead me to believe she also cannot see things right in front of her. Like how rude it is to be late, she says..."oh that's just how we are"....Really? She doesn't see how it can be perceived by the other person as disrespectful to be late when meeting them and she makes jokes about it when the other person gets offended, as if they are wrong for getting mad.

I think at some point my H may realize he should work with someone that could help him deal with the anger he could feel when he finally realizes some of this stuff, but I'm not going to waste the money forcing the issue until he is receptive and decides to pursue it himself. 

I've been to 3 counselors, 
#1 7 yrs ago, told me I had an anger problem and that I needed to stop allowing H to effect me, I couldn't see it, 
#2 5 yrs ago- she was a flake so we didn't get anywhere and 
#3 last year- also said I had an anger problem (I couldn't see it even then), & that let H leave thinking everything was my fault. 

Since I've been hanging out on here, reading, learning and thinking about these things, I can now see the anger issues I had and also how I could control how I reacted to H. 

If someone told me 3 yrs ago I would be where I am now, mentally and emotionally, I would have disputed and argued till the cows came home. 

I'm going to stay focused on making myself a healthier person, and lead by action, not by words.  



northernlights said:


> Also, OT, but fever is back again today. It was (daytime peaks) 103 on tuesday, 100.8 wednesday, 101.2 today, BUT I hadn't taken any fever-lowering medication all day. Not time to head back to the doctor yet, right? I wait until it shows continuous upward trend or breaks 103 again?


Oh My, I'm rarely sick and never like that so I am afraid not much help from me in this area. Feel better!!


----------



## bailingout

diwali123 said:


> I just marvel at the patience some of you have.


It's not so much patience as much as it's the prize at the end. 

And northernlights admits she's impatient regularly, yet she's still fighting.

It's all about the prize.


----------



## northernlights

bailingout said:


> To me that is HUGE progress, I actually know what he has planned 3 days in advance. Far cry from him leaving daily and me having no clue where to or when he'd be back.


That is great! 

Oh, and I forgot to tell you that my uncle has had 2 rounds of surgery and both went well. I think after the next follow-up, he might be in the clear!


----------



## northernlights

bailingout said:


> It's not so much patience as much as it's the prize at the end.
> 
> And northernlights admits she's impatient regularly, yet she's still fighting.
> 
> It's all about the prize.


Only my stubbornness outweighs my impatience!


----------



## diwali123

And what is the prizev


----------



## bailingout

northernlights said:


> Oh, and I forgot to tell you that my uncle has had 2 rounds of surgery and both went well. I think after the next follow-up, he might be in the clear!


Good to hear!!!



northernlights said:


> Only my stubbornness outweighs my impatience!


LOL. yep, I used to be very stubborn, figured it out only hurt me. Another one scratched off my list. 



diwali123 said:


> And what is the prizev


A healthy relationship with someone who I've been unable to walk away from for 20+ years, even tho I've wanted to many times, but something stands in the way, and it's not fear. I think it applies to both of us, if either of us could've walked away from the other, one of us would have by now.

I've got more than I could have asked for or ever dreamed in my life, people who knew me 30 yrs ago look at me now in disbelief in what I have been able to accomplish compared to where I came from, now I just need to fix this damn marriage. LOL


----------



## northernlights

diwali123 said:


> And what is the prizev


For me right now the prize is my 8 year old's happiness. And I think my 5 year old is happier with us married too, though to tell you the truth, I'm not 100% sure... I'll do whatever I can to make it until she turns 18. And since I don't want to be miserable for 10 years, dammit we're going to fix this!

I'm slowly dropping my standards for what a "good" marriage looks like, too. I'm still envious of people who share that closeness and intimacy with their spouses, but I'm starting to accept that I might not be one of them. However, I have wonderfully close relationships with my family, friends, and kids, so hopefully I'm not missing out on too much.


----------



## diwali123

I understand both of you. 
The other day I was looking at pictures of my daughter from her first two years, I have a hard time looking at them now which is really sad. 
I look happy in the pictures. 
I was happy with being a mom, he just refused to leave me be. 
I could have lived with a distant ok marriage. I even asked him if we could just be parents together and have separate rooms but he refused. 
Anytime I tried to get distance or detach, he would escalate. Either he would be abusive to me, or he would destroy something or threaten to. 
If he wanted to give me the silent treatment it was almost nice to have a break. 
If I wanted space, he do things to make sure I couldn't have it. 

I know I'm better off now. It's been five years and I feel like a completely different person. I look so much younger and there's an innocence in those pictures.


----------



## bailingout

northernlights said:


> For me right now the prize is my 8 year old's happiness. And I think my 5 year old is happier with us married too, though to tell you the truth, I'm not 100% sure... I'll do whatever I can to make it until she turns 18. And since I don't want to be miserable for 10 years, dammit we're going to fix this!.


 



northernlights said:


> I'm slowly dropping my standards for what a "good" marriage looks like, too. I'm still envious of people who share that closeness and intimacy with their spouses, but I'm starting to accept that I might not be one of them. However, I have wonderfully close relationships with my family, friends, and kids, so hopefully I'm not missing out on too much.


A good marriage to me is how I feel about it, not how it compares to others. Truthfully of all the married couples I know, I can say that I think 2 are really happy. 1 has that "closeness & intimacy" that you speak of (I can see it in how they interact), the other seems to just be good partners, but I don't think they share that "closeness/intimacy" like bond. In my circle, there are alot of unhappy marriages but what they portray to the outside is a lot different that what is actually going on. I know this for a fact. 



diwali123 said:


> I understand both of you.
> The other day I was looking at pictures of my daughter from her first two years, I have a hard time looking at them now which is really sad.
> I look happy in the pictures.
> I was happy with being a mom, he just refused to leave me be.
> I could have lived with a distant ok marriage. I even asked him if we could just be parents together and have separate rooms but he refused.
> Anytime I tried to get distance or detach, he would escalate. Either he would be abusive to me, or he would destroy something or threaten to.
> If he wanted to give me the silent treatment it was almost nice to have a break.
> If I wanted space, he do things to make sure I couldn't have it.
> 
> I know I'm better off now. It's been five years and I feel like a completely different person. I look so much younger and there's an innocence in those pictures.


I'm sorry diwalli in what you went through. I understand that feeling of looking back at pics from when they are little and they also make me sad. They are simply a confirmation of a saying I came up with long ago and told H...."I don't want to just paint a pretty picture, I want to actually live it." Sadly he could not understand what I was saying. As for the pics, I too looked happy, but those first few years we so dark for me, I was extremely depressed for a long time, it took me a few years to start to get back on track. Now I'm like a freight train going the other direction. lol

One thing I can say is that no matter how PA or miserable my H can be, he is not openly abusive in a way that some men are. His is all little jabs, passive kind of crap, ignore me, mock me, he cannot confront anyone about anything. I would have left long ago if there were any type of physical violence toward me, breaking things or even threatening to break things. BIG boundary breaker for me.


----------



## diwali123

He refused to let me leave the house with the baby, then followed me around the house yelling, pounded on a door screaming at me while I held our daughter. 
I think she was three months old. That's when I asked him if we could just separate and live in the same house.


----------



## northernlights

diwali123 said:


> He refused to let me leave the house with the baby, then followed me around the house yelling, pounded on a door screaming at me while I held our daughter.
> I think she was three months old. That's when I asked him if we could just separate and live in the same house.


I think that goes beyond PA and into overt aggression. A person like that I think is very likely to keep escalating the violence. I'm glad you got out, and very glad you're in a much better place now!


----------



## bailingout

diwali123 said:


> He refused to let me leave the house with the baby, then followed me around the house yelling, pounded on a door screaming at me while I held our daughter.
> I think she was three months old. That's when I asked him if we could just separate and live in the same house.


Wow, to follow you around with a baby in your arms like that, unaccecptable. 



northernlights said:


> I think that goes beyond PA and into overt aggression. A person like that I think is very likely to keep escalating the violence. I'm glad you got out, and very glad you're in a much better place now!


:iagree:

On another note-just looking to get some input on a recent scenario. I'm pretty positive I already know the answer, but sometimes a self check is necessary.

Let's say you're talking to H (about his upcoming schedule) and he says something that is confusing to you or it just doesn't make sense to you. Do you tell him you don't get it and ask him to explain what he means? If so, how does he respond?

1. Does he simply explain what he means so you can understand what he meant?

2. Does he act like you're stupid for not being a mind reader, or act like you're an idiot for being confused and act like you're trying to control his schedule? 

Just wondering if our PA's spouses react in a similar way.


----------



## mace17

bailingout said:


> Wow, to follow you around with a baby in your arms like that, unaccecptable.
> 
> 
> :iagree:
> 
> On another note-just looking to get some input on a recent scenario. I'm pretty positive I already know the answer, but sometimes a self check is necessary.
> 
> Let's say you're talking to H (about his upcoming schedule) and he says something that is confusing to you or it just doesn't make sense to you. Do you tell him you don't get it and ask him to explain what he means? If so, how does he respond?
> 
> 1. Does he simply explain what he means so you can understand what he meant?
> 
> 2. Does he act like you're stupid for not being a mind reader, or act like you're an idiot for being confused and act like you're trying to control his schedule?
> 
> Just wondering if our PA's spouses react in a similar way.


Not sure if my spouse is PA, I've been following this thread trying to figure that out, but he does that same thing! If I forget something in his schedule that he told me, he says I never listen to him and don't care. And if I don't understand something he says he gets upset and acts like I'm stupid.


----------



## diwali123

bailingout said:


> Wow, to follow you around with a baby in your arms like that, unaccecptable.
> 
> 
> :iagree:
> 
> On another note-just looking to get some input on a recent scenario. I'm pretty positive I already know the answer, but sometimes a self check is necessary.
> 
> Let's say you're talking to H (about his upcoming schedule) and he says something that is confusing to you or it just doesn't make sense to you. Do you tell him you don't get it and ask him to explain what he means? If so, how does he respond?
> 
> 1. Does he simply explain what he means so you can understand what he meant?
> 
> 2. Does he act like you're stupid for not being a mind reader, or act like you're an idiot for being confused and act like you're trying to control his schedule?
> 
> Just wondering if our PA's spouses react in a similar way.


He used to try to start fights in front of her, which I can't tolerate. He called me a b$tch in front of her and would go off. 

And yes if I didn't understand him on something he acted like I was stupid. But then it seemed like after she was born he thought I went from being a college graduate and smart woman to a complete and utter moron.


----------



## bailingout

mace17 said:


> Not sure if my spouse is PA, I've been following this thread trying to figure that out, but he does that same thing! If I forget something in his schedule that he told me, he says I never listen to him and don't care. And if *I don't understand something he says he gets upset and acts like I'm stupid*.





diwali123 said:


> He used to try to start fights in front of her, which I can't tolerate. He called me a b$tch in front of her and would go off.
> 
> *And yes if I didn't understand him on something he acted like I was stupid.* But then it seemed like after she was born he thought I went from being a college graduate and smart woman to a complete and utter moron.


Seems there is another commonality among these men. We are just plain stupid. Ok whatever. At least I know it's not just me, and that's all I was trying to confirm, although like I said I already knew the answer.

Oh my diwali- You too? lol Seems either our kids sucked every ounce of intelligence from our brains or that it was somehow tied to the placenta and pushed out along with it. But I am having a hard time figuring out how I have managed to continue to run my business since she was born since my brain was extracted 8 yrs ago. :scratchhead:

As possible as those 2 possibilities are , I have to imagine that they discovered that the birth of our kids would interfer with their center of attention needs. Again 

Guess who's a little testy today?


----------



## SaltInWound

I wish I had a dollar for every time I told my husband "I'm not stupid".


----------



## Wonderinginnc

SaltInWound said:


> I wish I had a dollar for every time I told my husband "I'm not stupid".


I thought about you all on this thread yesterday as I heard my daughter and my assistant both tell my husband at different times "I'm not stupid. Don't treat me like I am."


----------



## bailingout

Wonderinginnc said:


> I thought about you all on this thread yesterday as I heard my daughter and my assistant both tell my husband at different times "I'm not stupid. Don't treat me like I am."


 How old is your daughter? Just curious, I didn't have time to read thru the whole thread.

Did you take the opportunity to talk to her about it or does she know why he does that? My goal with our D is to talk to her about these issues so she MAY be able to see them in a future mate. Hopefully prevent some of the same mistakes I made by ignoring the red flags.

So I did come up with another scenario and wondering your H's do the same....

The other night we were going out to eat (he had already mentioned going to X), once we got in the car, H suggested Y instead. I said sure, I was fine with either. I assumed we would go to Y and come home. Nope. Went to Y, then made a another stop before taking the long route back (way after D's bedtime). He never asked me if I felt like making this other stop, he just drives where he wants to, and goes every which around except the straight path.

I'm wondering how many of your H's do this? and also, if you go out to eat and nothing else is mentioned, do you ASSUME you will go to eat and come right back, and take the shortest route?

Again, just wondering.

Do your H's do that also?


----------



## SaltInWound

We always discussed where we were going before we left the house. If something came up, we would verbalize the need to stop by somewhere else. He has never been one for taking the scenic route. 

Bailingout, is this new behavior for your husband.....not letting you know about an additional stop along the way and going the scenic route?


----------



## diwali123

No my ex never did that, that would really annoy me.


----------



## Wiserforit

1bzymom said:


> Wiserforit, if you truly did misinterpret my words as an attempt to debase men at large and you felt the need to represent in their defense, my apologies to you and your gender.
> From my perspective the analogy was between puppies and relationships; not puppies and men. I didn't say they (men) couldn't be helpful (in all the ways you pointed out); I said they weren't necessary (to have all the things you pointed out).
> Twisting someone's words is quite manipulative, but I guess you'd already know that.


I understood you perfectly well. Thank you for "apologizing" for my "mistake".  The old "I'm sorry you are so stupid" apology. I'm not angry at all. This is my hobby and I enjoy it. 

You're reading like a book. A little insight for onlookers: Someone who has a deep-seated issue will not state it in the affirmative.

If you have some huge issue with acknowledging men can improve a woman's life then you will not say "Men improve women's lives".

Instead, you'll make obviously disparaging remarks (the insult camoflaged as a compliment) about them and when called on it, issue the double negative denial: "I did not say men cannot improve women's lives."

Double negatives are cumbersome. Twice as many words - eight instead of four. But it allows you to escape saying the dreaded words, so well worth the effort.

You don't have men in this country constantly harping about how they don't need women. Because they don't have this insecurity that masks itself with the need to keep repeating it. 

The irony is the false belief that inculcating the meme makes a woman strong and independent. The whole thing is based upon fear, and the denial that healthy, mutuallly beneficial relationships can even exist. 

It is much healthier to show people how to have positive interactions with the opposite sex instead of teaching them fear and disrespect.


----------



## SaltInWound

diwali123 said:


> No my ex never did that, *that would really annoy me.*


Ahhhhh yes.


----------



## 1bzymom

Well, Wiserforit, let’s take this one step at a time, shall we?

First of all, kudos for only taking a week to come up with this unsolicited yet clever response. You weren’t kidding when you said this was your “hobby”. Putting forth such effort and taking the time to craft such an insightful piece is true diligence. How many rough copies did you have I wonder? 
Now, as to your words of wisdom...

*You said:* _“I understood you perfectly well. Thank you for "apologizing" for my "mistake". ￼ The old "I'm sorry you are so stupid" apology. I'm not angry at all. This is my hobby and I enjoy it.” _

Clearly you do not understand me perfectly well. Nor did you understand my statements. I’m not sure if you somehow inferred interested previously, but I’m not concerned if you’re angry. Thanks for the update anyhow. And again, yes, this is your hobby. We’ve established that. I personally consider hobbies actual activities, but hey, if that’s what you like to call it, fine. 

*You said*: _You're reading like a book. A little insight for onlookers: Someone who has a deep-seated issue will not state it in the affirmative._

Well, I hope you’re enjoying the book. Spoiler alert: There’s a part in the middle where she gets kind of angry but in the end she winds up happy. 
I suppose your assesment of my so-called deep-seated issue is based on all the “knowedge” you’ve attained pursuing your “hobby.” I’m sure all the onlookers appreciate you pointing that out for them, being as they are surely not as smart as you. And my deep-seated issue? That I won’t say “men improve women’s lives”. I just wanted to be clear for the onlookers. 

*You said*: _If you have some huge issue with acknowledging men can improve a woman's life then you will not say "Men improve women's lives"._

You’re right. I will not say “men improve women’s lives.” 
That is a ridiculous blanket statement and it’s insulting. Very much like the person who wrote it. Look at how you twist your own words: you said “...acknowldging men can improve a woman’s life”. And then it somehow becomes “Men improve women’s lives.” That is not the same thing. There is no definitive that men improve anything. And I did acknowledge that they “can”. I just said they were not necessary and that it is not always the case (that they do improve your life).
I will not retract that statement. It is the truth. Is that affirmative enough for you? 

*You said:* _Instead, you'll make obviously disparaging remarks (the insult camoflaged as a compliment) about them and when called on it, issue the double negative denial: "I did not say men cannot improve women's lives." 
Double negatives are cumbersome. Twice as many words - eight instead of four. But it allows you to escape saying the dreaded words, so well worth the effort._

How can something be “obviously disparaging” and “camoflaged” at the same time? And thanks for the grammar lesson but just to wrap it up for you: Two negatives in the same sentence cancel each other out creating an affirmative. In this case the affirmative would be “men can improve women’s lives.” Go figure. Exactly what I was saying. Not the four word affirmative your contriving “men improve women’s lives”. If that were the case I would have used “do not”. You see the difference? Nice try, though. You certainly relish in your own cleverness, don’t you? Should’ve paid more attention in fifth grade language arts I guess if you really wanted to follow through with that double-negative approach. 

One more time just for laughs: Men can improve women’s lives. I’ve never disuputed that fact. Men improve women’s lives. That’s a different statement entirely and yes, I dispute that fiercely. 
You are a narrow minded man. What if my daughter was a lesbian? Does all hope of her having a fulfilling, healthy relationship go out the window because she won’t ever have a man to “improve her life”? 
No, of course not. And if she did present herself to me as a lesbian I would tell her all the exact same things. It’s about relationships, not men. Get over it.

*You said: *_You don't have men in this country constantly harping about how they don't need women. Because they don't have this insecurity that masks itself with the need to keep repeating it. _

And you say you’ve been following this thread?! Are you kidding me?

*You said:* _The irony is the false belief that inculcating the meme makes a woman strong and independent. The whole thing is based upon fear, and the denial that healthy, mutuallly beneficial relationships can even exist. _

No, that is not the belief. The belief is that encouraging a woman’s independence helps makes her strong*er*. 
I’m a woman, I should know. There is no fear, quite the opposite. What it’s based upon is experience, relevance, culture, need, development, evolution, education and plain old good sense. There is no denial that healthy, mutually beneficial relationships can exist; there is a recognition that these relationships require work and aren’t fairy tales.

*You said:* _It is much healthier to show people how to have positive interactions with the opposite sex instead of teaching them fear and disrespect._

What’s healthy is to be open and honest with my girls about my experience and opinions. I do not teach fear; I do not teach disrespect. I teach self-control. I teach objectivity. I teach reality. I teach perspective. I teach soul searching. I teach them to love themselves first so that someone else can in the future.


----------



## bailingout

SaltInWound said:


> Bailingout, is this new behavior for your husband.....not letting you know about an additional stop along the way and going the scenic route?


Actually this is not a new thing. 



diwali123 said:


> No my ex never did that, that would really annoy me.


:iagree:

This has always annoyed me but I have not been able to explain it so he could understand why I find it annoying. 

The one thing I cannot figure out is if he just doesn't care that I may not want to do Y, (a selfish aka narc thing) or that he doesn't realize I am not an attachment of his with my own mind and wants (an enmeshment thing). Either way, when I say something he gets all bent out if shape as if I'm crazy. 

As for the scenic route, we do have a few different paths we could take to return home and I do get bored with the same route but sometimes he will go miles out of the way at the least convenient times. 

If i say anything to him about it when he does it, I'm either selfish or controlling (the stops) or impatient or he thinks I'm telling him which way to go. (Scenic routes). But if I do it to him, I'm inconsiderate cuz he may have something else to do or wasting time/gas/vehicle wear & tear. 

Needless to say, I don't let him drive if I have to be somewhere specific. Lol


----------



## Wonderinginnc

bailingout said:


> How old is your daughter? Just curious, I didn't have time to read thru the whole thread.
> 
> Did you take the opportunity to talk to her about it or does she know why he does that? My goal with our D is to talk to her about these issues so she MAY be able to see them in a future mate. Hopefully prevent some of the same mistakes I made by ignoring the red flags.
> 
> So I did come up with another scenario and wondering your H's do the same....
> 
> The other night we were going out to eat (he had already mentioned going to X), once we got in the car, H suggested Y instead. I said sure, I was fine with either. I assumed we would go to Y and come home. Nope. Went to Y, then made a another stop before taking the long route back (way after D's bedtime). He never asked me if I felt like making this other stop, he just drives where he wants to, and goes every which around except the straight path.
> 
> I'm wondering how many of your H's do this? and also, if you go out to eat and nothing else is mentioned, do you ASSUME you will go to eat and come right back, and take the shortest route?
> 
> Again, just wondering.
> 
> Do your H's do that also?


Our daughter is almost 21. After taking psychology in college, she talked to me about her dad, and suggested he might have asperger's. She has close friends and has observed a lot of other people's marriages, so she knows ours isn't "normal" We've discussed passive-aggressive behavior, but she doesn't see it as much as I do, simply because they don't interact that much, and when they do, it escalates into yelling at each other very quickly. 

I think you all will relate to something that he said during their discussion. We have an outside storage building with a wooden ramp that is in disrepair. Daughter and I were moving a piece of furniture from the building into the house. I asked her if she wanted to ask her dad to help, but she said she didn't want to put up with his antics. As we were moving it, her leg actually went through the ramp where the wood was so rotten. She told her dad about it, and he told her "It's your fault the ramp isn't repaired. I asked you for a sheet of plywood for Christmas and you didn't give it to me." 

Oh, and I have another ice cream container on my clean kitchen counter.


----------



## SaltInWound

bailingout said:


> Actually this is not a new thing.
> 
> 
> This has always annoyed me but I have not been able to explain it so he could understand why I find it annoying.


He knows it annoys you and gives him the ability to escalate the situation if you say something. Do you see the pattern? This is not a new behavior for him. He does it to get your reaction. He is never going to admit that he understands your explanation. He enjoys seeing your frustration explaining it over and over again. Given the fact that he reverses roles and gives explanation for why it is not always best for YOU to take a different route, it is clear what his agenda is during other times when he is in the driver's seat.


----------



## bailingout

Wonderinginnc said:


> Our daughter is almost 21. After taking psychology in college, she talked to me about her dad, and suggested he might have asperger's. She has close friends and has observed a lot of other people's marriages, so she knows ours isn't "normal" We've discussed passive-aggressive behavior, but she doesn't see it as much as I do, simply because they don't interact that much, and when they do,* it escalates into yelling at each other very quickly*.
> 
> I think you all will relate to something that he said during their discussion. We have an outside storage building with a wooden ramp that is in disrepair. Daughter and I were moving a piece of furniture from the building into the house. I asked her if she wanted to ask her dad to help, but she said she didn't want to put up with his antics. As we were moving it, her leg actually went through the ramp where the wood was so rotten. She told her dad about it, and he told her *"It's your fault the ramp isn't repaired. I asked you for a sheet of plywood for Christmas and you didn't give it to me." *
> 
> Oh, and I have another ice cream container on my clean kitchen counter.


Responding to bolded text above, 

first one--this is something you can help her with. She can learn how to prevent this by controlling her reaction to him....by not allowing herself to yell back but by staying in control of her emotions, body language, tone etc. This way he will either stop doing it (to avoid looking like the crazy one when she is perfectly calm) or he may eventually being to mimmick her calm behavior, either way, it shows he's the crazy one or it allows a civilized normal exchange between them.  I've been doing this myself and it has improved communication between H & I. 

the second- how pathetic and another example of the man-child. Love how he doesn't realize he implies that he is NOT the man of the house. 

Oh the bottle--sorry.


----------



## SaltInWound

bailingout said:


> the second- how pathetic and another example of the man-child. Love how he doesn't realize he implies that he is NOT the man of the house.


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## bailingout

SaltInWound said:


> *I modified your paragraph to answer. *
> *1.* He knows it annoys you and gives him the ability to escalate the situation if you say something. Do you see the pattern? This is not a new behavior for him.
> *2.* He does it to get your reaction.
> *3.* He is never going to admit that he understands your explanation. He enjoys seeing your frustration explaining it over and over again.
> *4*.Given the fact that he reverses roles and gives explanation for why it is not always best for YOU to take a different route, it is clear what his agenda is during other times when he is in the driver's seat.


Of course I see the many patterns.
1. He tries to frustrate me to make me look crazy. (I no longer react to it)
2. How I react shows him where he stands with me. (I no longer react to it)
3. Makes him think he's superior because I keep trying to explain it to him (I don't explain anything anymore)
4. His agenda, oh it's clear, just to name a few, to control MY time, to make ME question my views, to make ME look like the idiot, and to make me second guess myself. Bottom line- he is projecting. He is the one worried about being controlled, he doesn't trust his own views and doesn't know where he truly stands with me, he knows I am actually the smarter one, and he thinks he's actually fooling me.


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## northernlights

Just checking in to say the girls and I are finally getting over this thing (I think it was a flu) for real now. Littler daughter was burning up Sunday, Monday, and Tuesday nights but wasn't as miserable as the bigger one, so that was a blessing. Big one was very, very sick, fever pushing 105 for over 24 hours, it was very stressful. 

She'd gotten sick when she was just 12 days old, I'd woken up to nurse her and she was burning up, limp, and unresponsive. We raced off to the ER and she spent 3 days in the hospital on IV fluids and antibiotics. I was a first time mom, 2 weeks post-partum, and I remember I just cried for 24 hours straight. Then, ever since that, I struggled with occasional panic attacks (fearing she would get sick again and die), and whenever she got a fever, I'd just sob uncontrollably. That stopped happening when she was about 3, but this weekend was too much. When we were on the phone with the pediatrician at midnight trying to decide whether to bring her in or not, fever through the roof, it was too much. I was remembering how she'd cried when they put in the IV, when they did the spinal tap... I didn't want her to have to do all that when she's big enough to remember it all. So we decided to watch her closely overnight and see in the morning. Fortunately she started to get better on Sunday (she'd already been on antibiotics for 24 hours), and we ended up not doing bloodwork.

Anyway, that's where we are. I briefly thought about how it'd be nice to have a partner who had an opinion in these situations and was able to lead if I was losing it, but I don't, and there's no sense dwelling on it. I do wish that he'd expressed concern for me back when I was dealing with the panic attacks/fever trigger when she was very small, and encouraged me to talk to someone, but again, it is what it is.


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## diwali123

I'm so sorry! It's so hard when you feel like you are a single parent when you are married. 
I'm glad that you are all doing better!


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## northernlights

diwali123 said:


> I'm so sorry! It's so hard when you feel like you are a single parent when you are married.
> I'm glad that you are all doing better!


It's all I've ever known, so I don't think I even fully understand what I'm missing out on. I'm the one with the husband who left the hospital when I was 7 cm dilated because he was craving pizza. He was gone for over an hour. Daughter was born an hour later by crash section. 

Who does that??


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## SaltInWound

northernlights said:


> It's all I've ever known, so I don't think I even fully understand what I'm missing out on. I'm the one with the husband who left the hospital when I was 7 cm dilated because he was craving pizza. He was gone for over an hour. Daughter was born an hour later by crash section.
> 
> Who does that??


In my 8th month of pregnancy I went into the hospital because the baby stopped moving. We were not sure what the problem was. It was really late and my husband was becoming frustrated as he was trying to sleep in a chair, so I felt sorry for him and told him to go home and get some sleep. He instead went home and jerked off to 4 pay per view porn movies. I found out when the cable bill came in. I was induced a month later and was admitted early in the morning. I had nothing to eat all day and later that night my husband went to get a burger and fries and ate them in the room in front of me.


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## northernlights

It amazes me how similar our Hs are. Is there some kind of secret meeting they're all attending?

My BFF brought me a burrito when he came to the hospital to meet D1. I was still on an all-liquids diet (c-section), so H ate it. In front of me. This was a Tuesday, and I hadn't had solids since Saturday. 

Bastards. Tell me again what took us so long to realize this behavior was a problem??


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## Wonderinginnc

northernlights said:


> *It amazes me how similar our Hs are. Is there some kind of secret meeting they're all attending?*
> 
> My BFF brought me a burrito when he came to the hospital to meet D1. I was still on an all-liquids diet (c-section), so H ate it. In front of me. This was a Tuesday, and I hadn't had solids since Saturday.
> 
> Bastards. Tell me again what took us so long to realize this behavior was a problem??


I agree; there must be either a meeting or a manual they use. When I first had my pregnancy confirmed, I went to my husband's work and told him I was pregnant. The first words out of his mouth "you've going to make me be in the delivery room, aren't you?"

I was in labor and he left me for 2 hours (I was only in labor for 5) to get stuff ready for work the next day. I think the nurses felt a little sorry for me as I was laboring alone during some of the hardest time.

There was also the time when our daughter was about 4 months old. I had a stomach virus and was lying on the bathroom floor, because it was just easier to stay in there than go back and forth. Daughter wakes up crying for her feeding. He comes to the bathroom door, and asks if I "expect him to handle this?" There were bottle of breast milk in the fridge ready for feeding (he never did any of the middle of the night feeding, ever, even after I quit breastfeeding.


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## northernlights

Oh my gosh, the last time I had a lying-on-the-bathroom-floor stomach virus, I called to my H and asked him to get me some tagamet (I thought it might help with the god-awful pain). He fell back asleep. I was so angry, but too sick to do anything about it.


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## diwali123

Yep. They have a manual. 
D was probably five months. I had pain in both ears, kept asking him to watch her so I could go to the dr. 
I finally force him to come from home work so I can go. I found out I had swimmers ear and middle ear infections in both ears. 
She had to numb my ear to put the medicine in. 
I asked him to take a day off so I could rest the next day and he refused. 
So I spent most of the day on the couch and then put her in her crib to play with some stuff, and I laid on the floor.

He came home from work for lunch a d got mad and said "what are you doing?!?!!" like I was a crazy person. 
I told him I was exhausted and sick, and trying to rest, he said something like "you're always sick."


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## SaltInWound

northernlights said:


> Bastards. Tell me again what took us so long to realize this behavior was a problem??


I always knew it was a problem. I did not understand what it was, therefore never knew how to handle it. To me, the behavior was just childish and I figured eventually he would start behaving like a mature adult. Two decades later.... ummm....no. I realize the older they get, the more skilled they become to figure out what works best to get the desired result. Add narcissism to the mix and it is pure toxic.


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## diwali123

It got worse over time definitely. And it seemed like once d was born he just completely acted like he hated me and her most of the time.


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## SaltInWound

diwali123 said:


> It got worse over time definitely. And it seemed like once d was born he just completely acted like he hated me and her most of the time.


I experienced the same thing, only it started the day I told him he could come over and touch my stomach to feel our son kicking. I am convinced, at least from a narcissistic point of view, that a child is competition for their validation. I was giving our unborn son attention. It was no longer a focus on him being the guy with the baby on the way. Same with the birth. He was all smiles, etc until the baby was home and everyone visited and the pictures stopped. Suddenly he wasn't getting attention and the child was competition. He was also having to spend his gambling and party money on diapers and formula. Such a change from the guy who begged me to get pregnant and actually carried the pee stick around to prove to people I was pregnant. He rarely had anything to do with our son all the way up to adulthood and admitted to our son last month his lack of participation as a father. Wow, just wow.


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## diwali123

Holy crap same here! He begged me to have a baby and was SO happy when I got pregnant. 
He actually asked me if I loved her more than him. I couldn't believe it. I just rolled my eyes like "are you serious?"
I guess I should have said "no!!!"


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## diwali123

I have to say this. I keep wondering why I'm posting on here. I want to help other people but also I think that I'm at a point in my marriage where I'm really realizing that he isn't like my ex on a very deep level. 
For those who want to leave or are already gone: there are men out there who will love you, nurture you, who are real adults, real men. Who will participate and let you love them too.


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## mace17

SaltInWound said:


> I experienced the same thing, only it started the day I told him he could come over and touch my stomach to feel our son kicking. I am convinced, at least from a narcissistic point of view, that a child is competition for their validation. I was giving our unborn son attention. It was no longer a focus on him being the guy with the baby on the way. Same with the birth. He was all smiles, etc until the baby was home and everyone visited and the pictures stopped. Suddenly he wasn't getting attention and the child was competition. He was also having to spend his gambling and party money on diapers and formula. Such a change from the guy who begged me to get pregnant and actually carried the pee stick around to prove to people I was pregnant. He rarely had anything to do with our son all the way up to adulthood and admitted to our son last month his lack of participation as a father. Wow, just wow.


I keep hoping that my H will eventually show some interest in being a good dad now that our son is getting older (he's 7) but I'm not sure anymore. After reading your story I guess maybe it doesn't get any better.


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## Wonderinginnc

diwali123 said:


> I have to say this. I keep wondering why I'm posting on here. I want to help other people but also I think that I'm at a point in my marriage where I'm really realizing that he isn't like my ex on a very deep level.
> For those who want to leave or are already gone: there are men out there who will love you, nurture you, who are real adults, real men. Who will participate and let you love them too.


I'm grateful that you keep posting. You've been through it and came out on the other side. I'm thrilled to hear that there may be something better out there.


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## northernlights

Wonderinginnc said:


> I'm grateful that you keep posting. You've been through it and came out on the other side. I'm thrilled to hear that there may be something better out there.


:iagree:

I find myself accepting that most marriages are mediocre at best, then figuring that mine is probably pretty average. But hearing about yours helps remind me that what I have isn't normal. However, if this thread is bringing up too many old memories and making you unhappy, definitely take a break!


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## diwali123

No not at all. I just wonder of other people are thinking I'm not moving on. 
But five years later I still feel like I'm peeling the onion of how that marriage affected me. 
I gave up so much of myself and didn't even know I was doing it. He put so many limits on me, I feel like I was slowly diminished into a little box. 

I like to travel but it seemed like we never had the money for it. We always had money for things that were important to him. But never for things important to me. 
I didn't go anywhere but to visit family for over ten years. 
But in the last four years I have been to Canada, Mexico, and Florida. And I absolutely love it. 
The fact that I let him take that from me makes me so sad. When my new h a d I were on our honeymoon in Mexico two years ago I was just so happy. 
The last day we were there I almost cried. 
Same thing with Florida. I almost cried and I was a total crab the whole last day. I felt like I finally got to do something I want. After missing out on it for soooo long. It feels good to do it again but it also hurts that I missed out on so much. It hurts my heart that this part of me was unexpressed for so long. 
I always let his twisted logic turn me around. Fighting with him about money was next to impossible. 

When I decided to divorce him, I had really no intention of finding someone else. It was strange. I had a really good guy friend that I thought I might want to be with but the truth was I just couldn't see myself getting into a relationship. 
And he didn't feel the same way anyway. 

I left knowing I might be alone for a long time. But I knew it was better to be alone than to be with him. All he did was bring me down and cause more problems. 
At least when I lived with my mom I had someone who would help with my d who didn't make me feel guilty or throw tantrums or treat her like a burden. 

I just didn't realize how much I was giving up, bit by bit. He just didn't care about my growth, my feelings, my health, my sanity, well being, it was like he just wanted a robot in the house.


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## pink_lady

SaltInWound said:


> I experienced the same thing, only it started the day I told him he could come over and touch my stomach to feel our son kicking. I am convinced, at least from a narcissistic point of view, that a child is competition for their validation. I was giving our unborn son attention. It was no longer a focus on him being the guy with the baby on the way. Same with the birth. He was all smiles, etc until the baby was home and everyone visited and the pictures stopped. Suddenly he wasn't getting attention and the child was competition. He was also having to spend his gambling and party money on diapers and formula. Such a change from the guy who begged me to get pregnant and actually carried the pee stick around to prove to people I was pregnant. He rarely had anything to do with our son all the way up to adulthood and admitted to our son last month his lack of participation as a father. Wow, just wow.


That's exactly what it is. Narcissists hate children because they are competition- and children get to act the way the narcs wish they could, feel like they should be able to. This makes them very angry. And they have no real feeling for their own children, except as vehicles for their OWN supply.

Thank god my H had no desire to have children. He would have been a horrible father and I firmly believe the best thing for the children of narcs is to have as little contact with them as possible. Otherwise they, like me, only seek out a partner who is a narc to try and 'fix' that relationship.


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## northernlights

Interesting. My H is far too emotionally unavailable to compete with the kids. At least in that way he's fair; he wants as much from me as he wants to give me. Nothing. Well, almost nothing. He wants my good cooking and sex once or twice a month, but that's all he's ever asked of me. I think he sees his fair contribution as having a job. The kids don't interfere with rare sex or my good cookin', so he doesn't see them as adversaries. 

So, I did a good job not letting him pawn off another responsibility on me when I was sick. Older daughter wanted oatmeal one morning when I was really sick. H begrudgingly says he'll make it, then looks at me and asks "how do I make oatmeal?" We have instant oatmeal mind you. Usually I'd just say never mind, I'll do it, because really if you have to ASK how to make oatmeal, I figure you're too stupid to pull it off anyway. But this time I just said "there are instructions on the back of the box." And he sighed, and dragged his feet, but eventually produced a bowl of oatmeal for her.

Ridiculous. But at least I didn't rescue him like I used to.


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## SaltInWound

pink_lady said:


> That's exactly what it is. Narcissists hate children because they are competition- and children get to act the way the narcs wish they could, feel like they should be able to. This makes them very angry. * And they have no real feeling for their own children, except as vehicles for their OWN supply*.


Sad, huh? Our son is grown and still, it is so obvious. He knows that in order to get attention from his father, he has to feed the narc monster.


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## diwali123

I think that's why it's perfect for my ex to only see her every other weekend. It's just enough time to make him look like a great dad but not enough for him to get bored or have to any real care. 
He is allowed to have her three weeks in the summer but he never takes her for more than ten days. 
That's when he goes to visit family and he can again show her off and look like a good dad and I'm sure tell everyone his sob story of his ***** ex taking her away from him.


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## northernlights

When I first found out I had to return to the US from where we were living 4 months earlier than planned, H made no effort to come with me. There was no question that the girls would return with me, so he could forsee that he wouldn't see them for 4 months without me explaining that, but I don't think he even bothered to think about it. Finally, a few weeks before I left, he figured out he was going to miss the littler one's 5th birthday, and then decided he'd try to get home sooner too. 

We were home about a month with only the occasional 3 minute Skype call, mostly initiated by me, when he decided that he missed the girls and wanted to come home. In reality, I think he was bored, his apartment was a mess because I wasn't there to clean, and he missed my cooking. 

It was sad, he made such little effort to stay in touch with them. If I had to be apart from my kids for a month, I'd be missing them like crazy... calling every day, asking a million questions of H or whoever was caring for them, mailing them letters... It was really eye-opening.


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## vi_bride04

pink_lady said:


> That's exactly what it is. Narcissists hate children because they are competition- and children get to act the way the narcs wish they could, feel like they should be able to. This makes them very angry. And they have no real feeling for their own children, except as vehicles for their OWN supply.


OMG that totally makes sense with the way my ex abandoned his kids. And when he did re-enter into their lives there always seemed some sort of resentment towards them :scratchhead:


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## evenstar

I had no idea there was such a big "PA Spouse Club" - wish I knew you all were out there when I had to deal with mine! I was really young when I first got married and had no experience with anyone PA.

In one of our final arguments, right before we split, I remember telling my now-ex H "You are always so negative!"

He said, "No I'm not!"


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## northernlights

Oh, ladies, I need some support today!!

I have a new job. H has never been supportive of me working. More often than not, he's undermined me. I tried for a long time to balance part-time work from home (first freelancing for my old company, then tutoring). He'd agree to watch the kids (very easy for him, he works from home and has total control over his schedule), but he'd bail at the last minute. So if I wanted to work, I was 100% responsible for childcare, even when they were old enough to play around the house while he worked in another room.

Ok, so now I'm going back to full-time work (teaching), and I had to go by my classroom to do a few things. H wanted me to take the kids. I told him I'd rather not, they make it harder to focus (plus I took them last time, and our 5 year old ended up running around naked. It's embarrassing). They're 5 and 8, perfectly capable of playing with each other for an hour while he works in another room.

Well anyway, I get home and the 5 year old is crying. She missed me. And when she said she missed me, H told her "Well next time tell mommy that you want to go with her."

GRR!! Why doesn't he see that he's manipulating the kids to get to me??? Why would he do this?? Instead of telling DD that I'll be back soon, wouldn't it be fun to go play with barbies, and building up her confidence in her ability to be without me for an hour, he tells her to not let me go next time!

I'm so sad. She starts kindergarten in the fall, and she's nervous about being apart all day. I've talked to H about how we can support her, build up her belief in herself, and he nods his head and says yeah, but as soon as he has a chance, he instead takes the opportunity to try to prevent me from going to work. 

Ugh. It's so depressing.


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## SaltInWound

Northernlights, this is an example of what I mean when I say my stbxh used our son as a weapon against me. It is emotionally abusive toward the children, in my opinion. Yes, he could distract the child with something fun to do, but he makes it worse, magnifying the child's emotions to create an environment of tension. It is his agenda so that he can say "Look, this is all your fault". He wants his way. He doesn't want to deal with the children, so by encouraging the children to beg you, he hopes that out of frustration you will just give in and take them off his hands. 

Stand your ground. If he wants to listen to the crying rather than distract with a fun activity that is on him. Leave him with the mess he creates.


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## northernlights

SaltInWound said:


> Northernlights, this is an example of what I mean when I say my stbxh used our son as a weapon against me. It is emotionally abusive toward the children, in my opinion. Yes, he could distract the child with something fun to do, but he makes it worse, magnifying the child's emotions to create an environment of tension. It is his agenda so that he can say "Look, this is all your fault". He wants his way. He doesn't want to deal with the children, so by encouraging the children to beg you, he hopes that out of frustration you will just give in and take them off his hands.
> 
> Stand your ground. If he wants to listen to the crying rather than distract with a fun activity that is on him. Leave him with the mess he creates.


I knew he would probably do what he did, so going anyway was a big step forward for me. I just feel like our 5 year old is the one who ends up paying the price. It's so unfair to her. And I think she understands on some level that her dad isn't her protector, because their relationship is really strained. Unfortunately, the 8 year old is very attached to her dad, and she's the only reason I'm still here. Ugh though. Sometimes I feel like I'm throwing the 5 year old under the bus for the benefit of her sister. I hate this.


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## northernlights

Also, it means so much to me that you understand what this is like. So much of what these guys do is explainable, or seems trivial by itself, but the cumulative effect of it all is so much... yet I don't risk telling my friends or family, because every time they minimize it or try to justify what he's doing, it hurts so badly. I don't know why I'm in such a funk lately, but I just don't have the emotional resources to deal with other people's non-support. It hurts. So, thank you for being here.


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## SaltInWound

Your 5 year old has separation anxiety?


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## northernlights

Yeah, big time. I'm pretty sure it's mostly just her disposition--she would cry until she threw up when she was with a sitter from infancy. I tried the wait-it-out approach, and she's come a super long way (did 3 hours a day of pre-K last year), but once summer started up again, we've rarely been apart. 

Oh, but I'm forgetting that I did a mom's night out last week and H actually put her to bed. That was huge. So, she's come a long way.

Were yours like that??


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## SaltInWound

no. He never had a problem with separation. My mother says I did, but I was too young to remember.


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## mace17

I know how that feels - my 7 yr old to me tonight that it bothers him that dad never tells him he's proud of him at all. I always do because I am and I know kids need to hear that. My son has some anxiety issues though and I don't know why - we will be going to a child psychologist soon.


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## 1bzymom

Hello Ladies, 
I have this thought that came to me recently that I wanted to share and possibly get some feedback on. 
A young girl (20s) who is friends with my daughter was over the other night. We were out front talking and she was asking my advice/opinion on her present romantic situation. She told me the guy she's seeing blows her off for weeks at a time but then comes back around claiming he'd been busy with work or something. She said he's everything she could want (cute, smart, blah blah) and she really, really likes him BUT she doesn't like that he drifts away like he does. She says it hurts her and makes her feel insecure and that she feels stupid when she lets him just come back around. My immediate advice to her was that there are plenty of guys and she shouldn't be left hanging like that. I told her it was disrespectful of him to treat her that way and she should probably move on. She deserved better.
Honestly at the moment I didn't make any correlations between her story and mine. I was thinking about it later though and realized I don't execute the same advice in my own life! My husband does this all the time and I didn't know what it was about until recently (learning about PA). It hit me like a ton of bricks! Here I am doling out advice about not letting people treat you badly and I do it myself regularly! I wondered what my advice to myself would be and realized I would not advise anyone to do what I do and have been doing for 20+ years! I let him disrespect me. If he (my husband) were someone I was dating and he drifted away for weeks at a time and then came back around looking for sex I'd tell him to hit the pike! WHY then do I think it's ok because he's my husband?! 
So I have this new attitude I woke up with today: Who the hell does he think he is?! And what does he think I am to him that he can just do that to me?!


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## diwali123

Who the hell does he think he is? 

I actually asked my ex "what on earth makes you think it's ok to talk to me that way? Who do you think you are?"

His answer "what are you, my mother?"

You have taken a huge step forward. Good luck to you.


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## SaltInWound

My stbx thinks he is the center of the universe and everyone is there to serve him and remind him of how great he is.


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## 1bzymom

diwali123 said:


> You have taken a huge step forward. Good luck to you.


Thank you Diwali! This is exactly what I was hoping to hear 

It's so amazing how they can not only think they are the center of the universe but also somehow (stealthily) train us to cater to that notion!


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## diwali123

1bzymom said:


> Thank you Diwali! This is exactly what I was hoping to hear
> 
> It's so amazing how they can not only think they are the center of the universe but also somehow (stealthily) train us to cater to that notion!


Just prepare yourself. It could be the beginning of a new phase in your relationship or the beginning of the end.


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## northernlights

GRR! Ok, so I have a new job, which is a big deal since I've been primarily a SAHM (I've always freelanced from home, but not more than 10 hours per week) since my oldest was born 8 years ago. I'm teaching, so while that doesn't start until September, I have quite a lot of work to do to get ready. Today I was going to complain about something, and I said to H, "Oh no, it's already starting, I have to complain about work." And H said, "Your work, ha ha." But not in a nice way, he was really scoffing at the idea. So I said, "what do you mean? Why are you laughing?" and he said, "well it's not like you're working yet."

I had to just walk away I was so angry. Why does he do this? I have been feeling really good about this job and myself for getting it, and it's like he can't stand that and he's trying to sabotage it and me whenever he can (see above post about leaving the girls with him while I went to my classroom). On top of that, he made a comment this summer about my SIL's job as a bank teller being "beneath her." I was shocked, and because the kids were present quickly said, "No honest job is _ever_ beneath _anyone_." This attitude is an ugly part of the way he was raised and his native culture--even when we were dating he would call blue-collar workers "proles" (for proletariat) and sometimes "workers," which probably translates in his home country to having a derogatory connotation. I think teaching is highly respected in his home country, but I think because the salary is somewhat low here in the states, he doesn't think it's a super respectable job. 

I'm just so frustrated. I'm trying so hard to stay and make this work, and I feel like these offhand remarks of his tell me exactly what's going on in his mind, and it's certainly not showing me an effort to make things work. 

Vent vent vent, I'm sorry. I'm going to have a glass of wine. I wish I could magically get a divorce without breaking up my girls' family. FML.


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## diwali123

He just doesn't want you to have anything that makes you feel good or that takes anything away from your attention on him.
I'm so sorry.


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## motherofone

I wouldn't care what he thinks of your job. 8+ glorious hours out of the house doing something for yourself and being a rolemodel for your daughters. I call that a win-win!


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## venuslove

OK I didn't get through all of these pages, but cried when I read Veggie Moms first post. It's my husband and our marriage, except for a couple of things. He is known for having a short temper outside of the house as well and he is not that well liked. He also has "depression" I think it is something more than that like a personality disorder. 
His family was very controlling, which I found out is common for the PA male. 
In fact, many times, I feel as though I am really his substitute mother as twisted as it sounds. There are so many things that he acts like a young teenager about and that I am the person trying to get him to do something, etc. like that power struggle that happens between a teenager and his mother. Yeah, yuck! 
So, I have begun distancing myself also. We have been married two 1/2 years and have a two year old son. I am also staying because of my son. He was not a good father at first, but yelled at me and our son. I tried to stay away from him as much as possible, but I don't really have anywhere else to stay and be supported. He knew that. And I am really against day care. I just can't drop off my baby someplace with strangers. I just can't so this alternative seems better to me for now. I too think about leaving everyday and think about what it would have been like with a grown up as a partner.
You know he actually told me that he made himself into somebody else to "make me love him" and that now "that person is dead" when I ask him why he is never that guy before we were married.
Yes, there has been some talk with counselors as to if he is psycho. Yes, actually psycho which is more common than people think. 
I am embarrassed to talk about it to anyone else but my mom, brother, and just the surface with a few friends. We have gone to counseling but he just starts yelling at them and threatening to kill himself and then won't go back. They have all told me to divorce him and call 911 to have him commited if he threatens suicide again.
Okay so, yes, it does seem awful to stay with someone like this. But then I get people telling me, but your son will be without his dad then and you will have to put him in daycare and you wll just have a different set of worries.
Well, now he is supposedly taking his anti-depressants again, ehich I have to say do help. We have both noticed a big improvement in his moods when he actually takes them, but he has not ever taken them regularly at all since being told to take them over two years ago. 
Anyways, I wanted to comment on the power struggle with a PA. That is all it is to them. They were severly controlled by their parents so they never grew up and they resent even the slight thought that any other person could have any type of "power" over them. My husband also hates his professors and bosses. But, mostly it is me because really your spouse is your partner for life that you are supposed to make decisions with. He does not see this as making decisions, he sees this as me trying to get him to do what I want. Even when I let him have everything he wants though he is still not happy. So, even when he can't fight against me- because if you don't resist them, then they have nothing to fight against, and that is what they really need. They need that cycle of feeling negative and rebelling against you because you are trying to control them, but in essence they are trying to control you because ultimately they feel like they have no control over their lives because they were so controlled by their family.
Other people have said this much better than I just did. So it's actually sad that when I start to pull away and he recognizes it, he will start to want to be closer. This way he keeps me emotionally involved. See if you are not emotionally involved with them and you just give them everything they want, they don't have that struggle0 they can't abuse you- you are no longer fillng that role of mother/controller, etc so they can no longer continue with their cycle and that is what really scares them. They are not going to get what they need from you. They are not going to get that struggle. That is why they freak out so bad when you say you are going to leave. It's not that they really care about you, sorry, its that they will have that cycle that they need taken away.
Again said much better by others, but thank you for letting me congeal all my thoughts here. 
I still don't know if I am doing the right thing by not getting a divorce, but his family and him would most likely get my son half time from the lawyers I have talked to and god, look at how my husband turned out. He enjoys controlling our son, too and telling him "no" about once every thirty seconds. I can't imagine abandoning him to them for half of his life. SO, I play the game. I am incredibly bad at it. I am a straightforward not cunning person especially when it comes to feelings and friends, etc. I confronted his family about their behavior even I told them about his illness and they told me I was wrong for bringing it up!! They are sick.
He goes to see them evey weekend. They were on his ban account even after we got married!! I did not know until the night before the wedding when he father told me that since he was on the bank account he could see everything that we bought and started ticking off things he thought I shouldn't buy, like clothes. And my husband saw nothing wrong with this. I had to force him to put me on the account and take his father off. He never would have taken his father off and him and his family made plans etc without telling me about important matters- suffice to say, that they are still controlling him and/or he is letting them or wants them too. His sister still lives at home too at 25. which isn't too old I guess, but isn't too young. They got her to break up with her one and only boyfriend she ever had by telling her that he was emotionally abusing her, etc. They told my husband the same thing about me. They told their niece the dame thing and their other side of the family won't have anything to do with them anymore.
Anyways I am rambling on her. I am just saying that they are all PA I think and it is funny that his parents rarely do anything together and they take separate vacations too. 
In short, they are nuts. And I don't think my husband is capable of having an adult relationship sometimes. His mother actually told me this a year before we were married but I just thought at the time that she was freaking out because we were moving out of state and that she had all of a sudden decided that she did not like me. 
Anyways my husband is almost thirty and he just can't or won't do a lot of things for himself. I feel like his caregiver a lot of the time. Do any of you other people with PA spouses feel that way? Thank you so much for letting me ramble


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## venuslove

OMG- I'm so glad I found this thread. Seriously, no one has been able to pinpoint exactly what is going on with us like this. Unfortunately, all these relationships are similar to ours. I am the CoD. Ugh. I guess I started to realize it during one of our counseling sessions last year. 
Also, I was thinking about how you were talking about them getting divorced when you are no longer CoD enough and I am actually afraid of that. I am not afraid to be alone and raise my son, I really am not, my H was gone M-F for almost all summer and it was heaven. I started to get back my confidence, etc and distance myself. Then he started taking his pills again and acting like he really wanted to change ,etc. the cycle again. Now that I am sucked back in he is starting the PA again full scale, but he knows that I know his game now. I call him on it a lot. And I am scared that he will divorce me and take my son half time. I really don't want him to have my son half time. I just can't let that happen but legally I don't think I can do anything. So, it is pretty sick to play his games and act amotionally attached so that he doesn't divorce me and take our son half time. Now, who's the one with the problems?


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## SaltInWound

venuslove said:


> Anyways, I wanted to comment on the power struggle with a PA. That is all it is to them. They were severly controlled by their parents so they never grew up and they resent even the slight thought that any other person could have any type of "power" over them.


I cringe when I think back on the number of times my stbxh said "I'm a big boy. I can do what I want". A slightly more emotionally mature adult would say "Stop trying to control me", but envision a 4 year old and there you have my stbxh, and there is the evidence that this stems from early childhood.


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## 1bzymom

Hello Ladies, 
I just wanted to vent to some people who might actually understand!
Today my h was outside unloading groceries. My son, who is 9, came in and told me "dad said I could go to the pool with Luke". Not really thinking, I said, "ok, great" and my son proceeded to put on his swim suit. Just as he did it dawned on me that the pool was having a special function you have to buy tickets in advance for. I hadn't planned on going so didn't have any tickets. 
I told my son he couldn't go and he of course got upset. My h comes back in and starts giving my son all kinds of grief. Basically blamed my son because my h "didn't know it was the corn boil" and my 9 year old should have told him!! What!
OK, first of all, he's the adult, my son is 9. He doesn't know what the pool schedule of functions are. AND my h certainly did know about it. It's an every year event and we live in the town my h grew up in. He's lived here and been a member of the pool HIS WHOLE LIFE!!! Plus, we just talked about it last night while we were at the pool because they were setting up for it. HELLO! But no, blame it on the already upset kid. 
So I wind up with an upset and disappointed 9 year old and an irate 43 year old who can't just be the bigger person and say "sorry buddy, I made a mistake." God forbid he apologize. NO, he has to rant at the kid and make it ten times worse. 
Un-f'n-believable!!!


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## motherofone

Sad thing is that he will never change.


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## northernlights

Ugh, I'm so sorry. It's so hard when they can't be parents and act like kids to the kids. 

I've been having an especially tough week. I just don't see my situation ever getting better, and I don't want to live like this for 10 years. But I don't want to put the kids through a divorce either. I feel so hopeless.


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## 1bzymom

Thanks for the commiseration, ladies!

I don't think he ever will change, and that is sad. I absolutely agree.

Northern, I'm very sorry for your bad week. 
I have been in this relationship for over twenty years. If I had the chance to go back, I can honestly say I wouldn't have stayed. Not knowing what I know now. I hate to say it but I think my honest advice to you would be get out if you can. I'm sorry, sad but true.
Good luck, I hope things get better.


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## mace17

venuslove said:


> OMG- I'm so glad I found this thread. Seriously, no one has been able to pinpoint exactly what is going on with us like this. Unfortunately, all these relationships are similar to ours. I am the CoD. Ugh. I guess I started to realize it during one of our counseling sessions last year.
> Also, I was thinking about how you were talking about them getting divorced when you are no longer CoD enough and I am actually afraid of that. I am not afraid to be alone and raise my son, I really am not, my H was gone M-F for almost all summer and it was heaven. I started to get back my confidence, etc and distance myself. Then he started taking his pills again and acting like he really wanted to change ,etc. the cycle again. Now that I am sucked back in he is starting the PA again full scale, but he knows that I know his game now. I call him on it a lot. And I am scared that he will divorce me and take my son half time. I really don't want him to have my son half time. I just can't let that happen but legally I don't think I can do anything. So, it is pretty sick to play his games and act amotionally attached so that he doesn't divorce me and take our son half time. Now, who's the one with the problems?


Venuslove, I understand - that's probably the biggest thing keeping me in my marriage. My ex ****ed me over and got custody because he was sleeping with several of my friends and they stuck up for him. My current H watches what I do, like how many times I swear in front of our son and exactly how much I drink. So I am understandable afraid to start anything. I refuse to give up my son to a man who doesn't pay any attention to him. But I'm also afraid to start anything.


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## northernlights

1bzymom said:


> Thanks for the commiseration, ladies!
> 
> I don't think he ever will change, and that is sad. I absolutely agree.
> 
> Northern, I'm very sorry for your bad week.
> I have been in this relationship for over twenty years. If I had the chance to go back, I can honestly say I wouldn't have stayed. Not knowing what I know now. I hate to say it but I think my honest advice to you would be get out if you can. I'm sorry, sad but true.
> Good luck, I hope things get better.


Thank you for this. We've been married for 9 years, so if I stay until the older one graduates HS, it'll be 19 years (the younger one would love it if H moved out, so I wouldn't stay married until she left the house). But then I imagine myself 10 years from now, regretting having stayed for so long... 

When we were separated, things were so good with the kids. They were happier, more relaxed, and routines ran more smoothly. 

I think I'm going to ask for another separation soon. H's parents are planning to move from H's home country to the US fairly soon, and I'm going to ask H to go stay with them for at least a month before they go. Hopefully two, because last time a month was just not nearly enough time. We can tell the kids he's helping his parents with the move and spending time with his friends in his home country since we probably won't go back for a long time (no other family there to visit). Maybe from there we can transition to an official separation.


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## mace17

Question for you more experienced in this kind if behavior - my H always does stuff like ask me if I want to go out to eat or suggest grocery shopping, and then when we get there he realizes he "forgot" his wallet. This happens so often I'm not believing it anymore, I can see one or twice forgetting but this is almost a habit. Any of yours do that?


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## SaltInWound

mace17 said:


> Question for you more experienced in this kind if behavior - my H always does stuff like ask me if I want to go out to eat or suggest grocery shopping, and then when we get there he realizes he "forgot" his wallet. This happens so often I'm not believing it anymore, I can see one or twice forgetting but this is almost a habit. Any of yours do that?


Mine never did that. I don't think that would be too much of an issue unless you had separate bank accounts.


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## mace17

That's it exactly - we do have separate accounts and he likes to hoard his money and make me pay for everything. This is his latest trick.


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## 1bzymom

northernlights said:


> Thank you for this. We've been married for 9 years, so if I stay until the older one graduates HS, it'll be 19 years (the younger one would love it if H moved out, so I wouldn't stay married until she left the house). But then I imagine myself 10 years from now, regretting having stayed for so long...
> 
> *When we were separated, things were so good with the kids. They were happier, more relaxed, and routines ran more smoothly. *
> 
> I think I'm going to ask for another separation soon. H's parents are planning to move from H's home country to the US fairly soon, and I'm going to ask H to go stay with them for at least a month before they go. Hopefully two, because last time a month was just not nearly enough time. We can tell the kids he's helping his parents with the move and spending time with his friends in his home country since we probably won't go back for a long time (no other family there to visit). Maybe from there we can transition to an official separation.


I think you said a lot in that sentence. 
I hope this week is going better for you & the new job is going well!


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## SaltInWound

mace17 said:


> That's it exactly - we do have separate accounts and he likes to hoard his money and make me pay for everything. This is his latest trick.


Put a stop to it. When he is supposed to pay, leave the house without your wallet. Take your handbag, but leave the wallet at home. You can always say you needed to take care of something at the house and forgot to put it back in your handbag. If he can "forget", so can you. Or you can just make sure he has it before you leave the house. Or just stay home and let him go shopping without you.


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## 1bzymom

mace17 said:


> Question for you more experienced in this kind if behavior - my H always does stuff like ask me if I want to go out to eat or suggest grocery shopping, and then when we get there he realizes he "forgot" his wallet. This happens so often I'm not believing it anymore, I can see one or twice forgetting but this is almost a habit. Any of yours do that?


My H is just an idiot when it comes to money all together! He doesn't care about spending it, I'll give him that. BUT he also doesn't care much about having it, making it or saving it either. I honestly don't think he gives it a thought. 
In the beginning of our relationship I made more money than him and I didn't mind paying for things. He didn't even have a bank account back then. 
Then for a while when he started making money we had separate accounts but I still did all of our banking, bill paying, etc. I've always had free access to whatever money he's had, which I guess is good. 
After my third child I quit my job. I worked nights so it wasn't a childcare issue, I just wanted to be more available to my kids. He was making enough money and I didn't need to work. He never had a problem with that either. With no check to deposit having my own account wasn't necessary so that's when we combined. 
Reading that you probably might think that's not so bad. Here's the hitch: He doesn't give me full access out of trust or desire to share or any other noble reason. He simply doesn't care. He doesn't want to be bothered. The bills wouldn't get paid if I didn't do it. Hell, the mail would never even get opened! It's a task, a job to be done with deadlines and consequences. This way he gets to avoid all that responsibility and still look like the good guy. And if something goes wrong, something doesn't get paid, then that's my fault. 

My favorite example of his crap with money:
I didn't actually marry him until 10 years & three kids into our relationship, mostly for the health care. Anyway, up until then we filed separately but I did both our taxes. When we started filing jointly I did it the first couple years but it got complicated and I decided to go to an accountant, which was great. But then my accountant moved out of the area and referred me to another man who was a bit older. I don't remember the reason but I had to send my h to get the taxes done. When he came back and I looked them over there were some mistakes, starting with my name! My name, seriously!? There were other things as well pertaining to the actual numbers. So I asked H to call the guy and get it fixed. We didn't owe and stood to get a refund so you'd think he'd get on that. Didn't happen. Four months later I finally call the guy and explained the situation. This man, the accountant, yelled at me like I was a child because I waited so long, etc. It was humiliating. 
I told my h and he had no real reaction of course. I got mad and I said I wouldn't deal with the taxes at all anymore and he had to do it, I didn't even work at this point. 
FOUR YEARS went by and and he never filed taxes. Never even got the one's that started it fixed. I stubbornly waited and waited all that time thinking surely he wouldn't just stand by and lose money just to avoid dealing with icky, complicated adult things like taxes. Nope. He sure would!
You only have four years to collect a refund so before that date actually hit I went ahead and got the taxes caught up. We wound up getting back over 12 thousand dollars at one shot so in his mind it was all great! It's so frustrating that he can get away with blowing off something like that and still come out smelling like a rose! This is my life!


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## gbb

Hi all, 
Been reading this thread for a few days and fearing my husband might fit the profile.
This last one about money is spot on. 
Mine is like a child when it comes to finances. I handle everything. I tried refusing to do certain things and got the same results. He still didn't do it. It's bizarre to me. It's like he doesn't care about it at all. Bills, savings, taxes, retirement, none of it. 
I really wouldn't care if it only affected him. 

When I read about PA it talked about willful incompetence and procrastination. I would say not filing taxes for four years because you wouldn't do it for him seems to fall in these categories. 
Bzymom, I can't believe you waited that long to fix things! Especially dealing with the IRS! I don't think I could have held out that long. I'm not that patient.

Of course, my lack of patience is part of the problem also. Ugh... So much work...
Oh, to believe in fairy-tales again!
Best of luck to all of us


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## diwali123

So I was always the one who filed taxes for us. The year my daughter was born I wasn't working. I filed federal but apparently forgot to file state.
Seven years later he stopped paying me child support and I made a big enough deal of it with the state that they ended up realizing he never filed that year. 

They sent him something about what he owed which was about a thousand dollars. He immediately contacted me and said that I needed to pay half of it! I said no way, I wasn't working that year and we are divorced now buddy!!!


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## motherofone

My gem of the day. Trash is full. Instead of taking it out, he yells at me about it, then puts his trash on the counter. (I can't live with this man, clearly). I am getting better at boundaries. I am leaving it. I am also hand washing my few dishes. I am a slave to his mess no more!


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## Wonderinginnc

Things have been going OK as I've been working on not letting him get to me. 

Husband does most of the laundry, and I do my better clothes since he over dries clothes. I keep those separate in the laundry room and do them as I can. We've discussed this before; it's not like I haven't told him my concerns. Today I went to do laundry and found he had taken several shirts out of my basket and washed and dried them. These are the specific shirts that shrink if dried. I once again asked him not to do my clothes that I had separated out and got yelled at for "always pointing out he can never do anything right." 

Why does my life have to be a constant battle?


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## gbb

My H would do things like not take out the trash and leave his on the counter, but he wouldn't yell at me for it. He doesn't argue at all and never says out loud when he's angry. He just makes it clear though his actions, like sighing, stomping, slamming things around but then denies there's a problem. 
I wish he would yell at me, I'd take it as an invitation to engage him but he doesn't. Ever. This is part of why everyone thinks he's such a prince.


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## SaltInWound

Wonderinginnc said:


> Why does my life have to be a constant battle?


Because it makes him feel better to make you upset.


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## diwali123

gbb said:


> My H would do things like not take out the trash and leave his on the counter, but he wouldn't yell at me for it. He doesn't argue at all and never says out loud when he's angry. He just makes it clear though his actions, like sighing, stomping, slamming things around but then denies there's a problem.
> I wish he would yell at me, I'd take it as an invitation to engage him but he doesn't. Ever. This is part of why everyone thinks he's such a prince.


That's why he does it.


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## northernlights

Hello all! New job is going wonderfully. It feels so good to have something go well in my life! And to be out of the house for 8 hours. Ahh!

Something happened two weeks ago that also really made me think. An old childhood friend came to town to visit his parents, and one night he picked me up to hang out with his family. Well, I got into his car and he'd already had my side's seat warmer on so that my seat would be warm and cozy. I couldn't believe that he remembered how chilly I get in the cool northern evening and how he was so thoughtful to do that. Then, I just felt depressed, because how pathetic is it that I was totally blown away by a small gesture? I just couldn't help but think that so many women have husbands that do things like this all the time.

Then there's mine, who 10 minutes ago accidentally kicked the loose end of the baseboard heater as he walked by. I asked him to pick it up and put it back and he said, "Why should I? It was already lying on the floor."

Sigh... he's as immature as he is passive-aggressive, but for Pete's sake... you're an adult in this house, and you pick it up if it's on the floor even if you didn't knock it off, because that's just what adults do. Why is this even an issue?

So, kind of fluctuating between depressed acceptance and happiness with my new job.


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## diwali123

I'm glad to hear about your new job! That's awesome! 


My h does nice things like that for me on a daily basis and it still surprises me every time. I don't know if I will ever get used to it. Maybe I shouldn't take it for granted. 

Some people are just selfish babies.


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## northernlights

I wouldn't even care if H didn't pick up the stupid piece without being asked. It was the "why should I?" that really got to me. My 8 year old is more of an adult than he is. (She really is. H has taken to walking away from the girls with a "whatever, I'm not dealing with this," and the 8 year old will ask why he's not putting the 5 year old, who's usually the misbehaving party, in time out. I hate that she's feeling like she needs to take on a parenting role when he won't.)

And the sweet little things... I wish my friend hadn't done it. It's easier when I'm not even aware of the things I'm missing.


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## gettingout

Hi, I've been reading this thread since the beginning (I may have even commented early on). I'm getting divorced from such a spouse - PA, narcissistic, verbally/psych abusive, etc. However I have a new wrinkle that may explain some of it - over the past couple of years I started wondering if he had ADHD, or perhaps even was on the high end of the autistic spectrum (his social skills are waaaaaay off, yet he is very successful in his job - it takes all his energy to keep himself going for that, but then it collapses for the rest of his life). Well....our child was just DX'd with ADHD, and may have some other traits we have to keep an eye on as well. And I managed to have a private conversation with the doctor who said yes, just by talking to him, and interviewing him, and spending time with him, guess who she would hazard to say has the same issue? And when I read about this, when it is not diagnosed or treated, and the person self medicates with booze, guess how it comes across?
Just throwing that out there as food for thought.


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## diwali123

I'm really sorry you are going through this. 
If I were you I would try really hard to get his visitation as limited as possible. How old is your daughter? 
How much does he drink?


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## diwali123

If anyone is interested I have thread in private section about what is going on with my ex. I had to call family services on him. 

Five years later I do wonder would it have been better to stay with him and then she wouldn't have to be put through this. 
But I think at least she has my support, a stable normal life with me in a safe environment.


----------



## Troubledlinda

deejov said:


> And then to compound the problem, I did try and get even with him.
> 
> It was really hot here the other day. I sleep in panties only. Instead of putting on a robe before I went to the kitchen in the morning, I wandered around in just my panties.
> 
> Normally, we both sit in the kitchen and have coffee before work. Chew about plans for the day.
> 
> It made him so uncomfortable he couldn't stay in the same room.
> Ha!


My husband turns the other way if I get dressed in front of him and never gets dressed in front of me... He leaves the room. He always locks the bathroom door when he's in there... Can' remember the last time I saw him naked


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## diwali123

My ex did the same. What is wrong with these men?
Been with my second h for three years and I still stare at him when he's naked like its an oddity of nature. Lol.


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## northernlights

gettingout said:


> However I have a new wrinkle that may explain some of it - over the past couple of years I started wondering if he had ADHD, or perhaps even was on the high end of the autistic spectrum (his social skills are waaaaaay off, yet he is very successful in his job - it takes all his energy to keep himself going for that, but then it collapses for the rest of his life).


My H has had cognitive testing because I was afraid something like ADHD was the cause of his neglectful behavior with the kids. He doesn't have that, but he does have a handful of other cognitive disorders that sometimes look a lot like ADHD (or maybe also commonly occur along with ADHD so the symptoms get grouped together, I don't know). It's good to know why some of these things happen, and at first I was excited because he was offered treatment (fully covered by the insurance we had at the time), plus we were in a great spot and seeing an excellent MC who wanted to see him for IC as well... and he did nothing. 

Call me jaded, but I'm feeling more and more like they've shown us who they are and what they're willing to invest. The "why" of it intellectually is interesting because it answers some questions, partially anyway, but ultimately they are what they are.


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## SaltInWound

:iagree: This post should be a sticky for the h3ll that PA spouses live. 

The part that stuck out with me was broken promises. My stbxh has given our son so many that it is almost a joke now. PA people thrive on promises, because in the moment, the promise builds up the hope of the victim and makes them (the pa) look like a great person. However, they push the promise far enough into the future that the victim will forget about the promise (a free get out of jail card for the PA), or the victim will come looking for the pa to make good on the promise (which is great, because then the pa is getting validation......the victim wants something from him/her and allows the pa to deny the promise was ever made, resulting in a confrontation where the victim will lose.). All sick and twisted. 

The only way to survive is to cut yourself off emotionally. Learn to live as if that person is a strange roommate. Don't expect love, empathy, attention. Expect nothing positive.

Whatever you do, don't have children with passive aggressives. Children are competition and will become targets.


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## motherofone

Ask anyone for help to get out. One day you may ask the right person and get the support you need to take the next step. 

Till then, leave his crap. As hard as it is. Don't do his dishes, don't wash his laundry, just don't. Don't talk about, don't do it. Try to spend some time doing something for you, meeting friends, take a walk, etc. Space in this case is a good thing.


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## cmfpochinuk

Hello,
Wow, your posting was in June, it is now almost 6 mos. past.
How are you doing with all of this?
I really would like to connect. Thank you for posting this, I understand! I truly do, you are
not living a fallacy, or erroneous in what you are observing 
in your life with your spouse. Hanging in there is tough, I may be able to help in some ways.
Sincerely,
Christine:scratchhead:truly wondering if your are okay.


----------



## AVR1962

cmfpochinuk said:


> Hello,
> Wow, your posting was in June, it is now almost 6 mos. past.
> How are you doing with all of this?
> I really would like to connect. Thank you for posting this, I understand! I truly do, you are
> not living a fallacy, or erroneous in what you are observing
> in your life with your spouse. Hanging in there is tough, I may be able to help in some ways.
> Sincerely,
> Christine:scratchhead:truly wondering if your are okay.


We all had a wonderful conversation going here and I do hope more will reply, hard to believe it has been so long since the original post!

For me, I have been in counseling. My counselor has been working with me to help me find me, do what I want for me rather than please everyone else. He suggested I read a book on assertiveness which I have started reading and found very good. At the same time I have been reading a book about the Emotional Unavailable man and what creates this. Reading this I realized I just read the history of my marriage and the things I have not understood and have questioned for so long.

I think for anyone dealing with a PA or emotionally unavailable husband this book is worth reading. Summary, men disconnect many times when they are children, not allowing themselves to be close or to feel, not engaging and only doing what serves them to protect and save them. Unfortunately their responses do not stop in childhood, hey remain with them and their responses are the same responses they learned as a child. We women compound the problem with our not understanding, our needing more (which is natural), our screaming, crying, threats to get them to change and listen.....they only withdraw further. The book gives step by step instruction for both the man and the woman on what to do to make things different. For anyone interested the book is "The Emotionally Unavailable Man" by Patti Henry.


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## gettingout

diwali123 said:


> I'm really sorry you are going through this.
> If I were you I would try really hard to get his visitation as limited as possible. How old is your daughter?
> How much does he drink?


I think you were responding to me but I am not sure....it's been awhile.

Hie behavior isn't "bad enough" to have any time with our son limited. It is enough for crazy making that our child is noticing (broken promises, etc). 

Even with an economic anvil over my head (I don't currently work enough to support myself, we have the stress of 2 separated households, he moved out without budgeting for it (not sure if there is someone else or not), I'm looking for something FT....even with all that....I feel at peace. The "crazy" isn't in my face 24/7. 

I could give specific examples, but even though he moved out he might be monitoring my Internet usage through the router (he has the password and can log in). Right now I am using a VPN until I get a new router this week. He seems to know things that he should not.


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## tmbirdy

VeggieMom said:


> Thank you lawrencebe and everyone here for your kind replies and for sharing your own stories. I have spent the last 2 nights reading on-line and a book about PA, and the more I do the more enlightening it is. I wish I had made this connection years ago. The MC missed it and we focused on trying to increase intimacy through dates and stuff- which usually fell through at the last minute or were spoiled by H somehow.
> 
> I feel like years have been wasted where I could have learned to manage my reactions better and in that way manage his own behavior to some degree. My children see the tension and my oldest is 12 and has started to both pick up some of H's behavior, and be affected by it. I have shared some of my journey with my 12 year old and tell her "You teach people how to treat you." I had talks with her about separating and how she would feel about it. She loves her Daddy and he is mostly good to them-- far better than to me because I am the focus of his anger and the one to blame for his problems. But she also sees how he hurts me and now she's going to see how I will not allow that anymore. I don't like bringing children into this but she's a smart one and I want to teach her I am not a door mat. I don't need to leave to stay strong-- it may come to that at some point but not yet.
> 
> I am SO glad I went back and got my degree and my job! I can if I need to pick up extra hours and support myself-- though as I mentioned before there would be a big cut between double income now and single income later. She sees me as a strong woman who has spoken up all these years but made no headway. Now I can in some degree.
> 
> I have not read much yet compared to how I will read and learn in the following weeks, but my evening went so much better last night. I was detached. I went about my work and I was polite to H and treated him decently. But did not fall into his traps, did not ask him to make any decisions or do anything. I really just don't care. I had a wonderful time with the kids last night and watched a show, and the kids were happy and relaxed.
> 
> Just as with my children (for whom it is developmentally appropriate to do so!) I know H will push or prod me and try to get me to react once he sees that I am detached now. I am going to have to learn not to do that and have the skills to rise above this.


I am jumping in this thread way late, but I am happy for you that you are taking charge of your life and taking it back. I would not stay in that marriage. From what you said in your very first post, he is not at all nice to you. It sounds like you deserve way better. He needs to be in charge of fixing his PA behavior, not you. Good luck to you.


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## canbhappy2

"I think grieving the loss of the marriage you wished you had is an important part of the process."


When I read this sentence, it makes me weep. Totally hit the nail on the head. I'm at this stage right now, I cry every day, it's so tough right now. I'm grieving. 

I too choose to stay in the marriage at this time, so I understand this difficult position you're in. 

You're not alone. There are so many people in this very same boat. Try and keep strong. Get outside interests, start making a life for yourself, build yourself back up to a stronger self. Talk to a counselor, continue to post on this forum (I know I feel stronger when I come here).


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## AVR1962

Have any of you who are living with a PA spouse talked to the spouse specifically about their PA behavior? Would your spouse be willing to read a book about the behavior to see if they can make a connection?

There are 3 personality types- passive, aggressive and passive-aggressive. Some of us may be more one type but will slip into the other type and this reaction to the way we deal with our issues started as children so these patterns are well set by adult years. We may have had to play a passive role growing up and we may have had to please our parents so we continue to do so with those around us as adults. When the passive person feels dealt a wrong hand or feels the scrapes on their back from being used and never heard this person could become aggressive and many times this is when the normally passive and loving person becomes ranging and screaming, crying.

The person who practiced passive-aggressive techniques as a child knew not to let their emotions show, they knew they would not be heard, they lived in an unsafe environment growing up but the pain was still there so the hurt came out kind of sideways, thru vindictive behavior.

If the person can recognize themselves in a book there, I feel, is hope. I think too they have to understand the process and what they are doing, maybe even how this developed into their personality.

At the same time I think their is work the passive wife can do to and that is to understand her own personality and understand what created her to be the way she is. Reading books on assertion and boundaries is very good. Also, read about the emotionally unavailable man and what creates this. If this sounds like your husband perhaps he too would be willing to red and understand? This is the only way that there can be progress, there has to be awareness by both parties that each of you have to have different ways to deal with situations.


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## Wonderinginnc

I revisited an old thread and decided to put up an update. I have tried since this thread to do what is suggested: make myself happy, etc. 

For a time it worked, then a few things happened. My dad seriously cut his finger and I spent all day in the hospital with my parents as we were dealing with this. I saw my parents worry and fret about each other, and behave in a way I know my husband and I never will. 

Husband and I also travelled to see our daughter who is studying in Ireland. It was a wonderful trip, and I was hoping to see some sparks, something to give me hope that we could make it. But we don't travel well together, and he never wanted to be part of our family on the trip. Then, one day we were in a train station, and my daughter said "look at the sweet man waiting for his wife" we watched as he waved to her, and then gave a big smile and hug to her. My husband had left both of us behind. My daughter looked towards him, then me, then the couple and got a tear in her eye.

Finally, when we returned, my mother came by and told me she had just been diagnosed with breast cancer. I told my husband, and all he said was "oh, oh" and walked away. It has been two days, and he hasn't asked me anything about it yet. 

I want to have a partner; I want to share secrets and have someone who will be with me while I go through the difficult stuff. I stood by him and supported him when his parents died, but I don't see the same happening for me. 

So, I'm leaving him. I'd rather spend the rest of my life alone, than be alone in a marriage.


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## alte Dame

I'm sad for you, but glad that you feel ready to do something about your feelings.

Does your H know of your decision yet?


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## vi_bride04

Wonderinginnc said:


> I
> So, I'm leaving him. I'd rather spend the rest of my life alone, than be alone in a marriage.


Sorry things didn't work out.

This statement sums it up. I know when I realized the same thing it was like a breath of fresh air.

Life is too short to feel completely alone in a marriage. It is way more peaceful in my opinion to be lonely as a single person. I'm going on 3 years and cannot even tell you the joy and satisfaction I have with life.

Good luck on your journey.


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## JukeboxHero

Wow, this is an old thread. Sorry about your terrible relationship. I'm glad I'm not this bad to my wife, but by reading this, I'm wondering if I could do better.


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## AVR1962

Wonderinginnc said:


> I revisited an old thread and decided to put up an update. I have tried since this thread to do what is suggested: make myself happy, etc.
> 
> For a time it worked, then a few things happened. My dad seriously cut his finger and I spent all day in the hospital with my parents as we were dealing with this. I saw my parents worry and fret about each other, and behave in a way I know my husband and I never will.
> 
> Husband and I also travelled to see our daughter who is studying in Ireland. It was a wonderful trip, and I was hoping to see some sparks, something to give me hope that we could make it. But we don't travel well together, and he never wanted to be part of our family on the trip. Then, one day we were in a train station, and my daughter said "look at the sweet man waiting for his wife" we watched as he waved to her, and then gave a big smile and hug to her. My husband had left both of us behind. My daughter looked towards him, then me, then the couple and got a tear in her eye.
> 
> Finally, when we returned, my mother came by and told me she had just been diagnosed with breast cancer. I told my husband, and all he said was "oh, oh" and walked away. It has been two days, and he hasn't asked me anything about it yet.
> 
> I want to have a partner; I want to share secrets and have someone who will be with me while I go through the difficult stuff. I stood by him and supported him when his parents died, but I don't see the same happening for me.
> 
> So, I'm leaving him. I'd rather spend the rest of my life alone, than be alone in a marriage.


I certainly understand everything you have said. I too watch other people and it is the intimacy that is lacking in my marriage that I see in others that makes me wish for more than what I have. I get caught up in these thoughts myself, almost dreamy-like, wishing that I had that relationship where husband and I could hug but then I look at him and realize that's not what I want from him anymore. So much hurt has happened that I can't say I really enjoy his touch anymore.

My first husband and I were always hugging, very close, we even worked together so we spent many hours each day together. We were very young, high school sweethearts, married 7 years. At the same time he was very insecure, had a terrible temper, did not like to work, wasn't a truthful man, and all the lovely attention he showered me with he showered other women with....he was a cheat. 

I look around at other men and my friend's husbands.....I look at my good friends who divorced and is now with another man and I see the same thing over and over again. The ladies want the emotional connection but men seem to be interested in what makes them happy, what pleases them whether it is watching football, drinking with the guys, hunting and fishing. Few take on the caring role.

I was out the other night with a group of couples, all married for various lengths of time, ages late 20's to mid 50's. At the end of the evening one of the guys brought out a 5th of tequila. The guys each had a shot and then another. It was the wives then that were telling their husbands "You are going to have to be up early tomorrow," "You just had surgery, you can't be throwing up," and these type of messages. It was actually innocent on the men's part, it was just a couple shots but these women knew their husband and knew they might not stop. However, looking at this situations while I understood the wives I realized that all the hounding in the world was not going to change the man. If they realize you don't like a behavior (whether right of wrong) they will just sneak to do what they want, much like children. All to avoid the confrontation.

My first husband wanted me to get involved in 3-somes, I wasn't interested so he started cheating. He did convince his second wife and then cheated on her also. My husband who I have now been with for 27 years has had issues with lust and drinking since before we were married and it remains an issue. It does not matter how much we have talked, how much I have understood him, the boundary lines I have drawn, the issues remain the same. But I have a different way of looking at the issues than I did before. These are his issues, his problem and I do not need to help him or try to solve them for him. I do not need to be his care taker like the wives who were warning their husbands about the shots. Let him get smashed, let him make a fool of himself, let him kill his liver. It took me emotional separation to get to this point but I no longer feel any responsibility for his actions nor do I beat myself up for his lusty eye.

If I look around and watch other men, I see that at least half the men, whether married or not, are checking out other women. I live in Europe where nudity is more accepted...women will be topless on the beach, doc appts mean being naked with no sheet to cover you, men and women dress themselves in public on the beaches, kids runaround naked in swimming pools. They have spas here where you do naked circuit treatments and can choose with or without opposite sex but in the end the last treatment send you out to the pool naked among both sexes. It is always the men watching for the women, even in a country where sexuality and nudity has more acceptance.

I started a similar post several months back. I have spent many years being miserable because I could not change my husband's behavior. I finally realized that no matter how much a wish for something more it's not going to happen. I was very close to filing for divorce just after Christmas this past year. I had contacted an attorney and I was figuring out how to make my escape, I was done! I started seeing a new counselor and I started taking his advise and while we are not close like my wishful thinking, the change in my approach has made life more bearable for me.

I had to come to realize that there were two issues here. Husband was emotionally unavailable and for many years I tried to reign him in and tried to get him interested in me and the family, using sex many times to try to get some sort of intimacy from him but disappointed still because my emotional needs were not being met and he was still seeking porn and lusting after other women not matter how much we talked or how much we had sex. 

I then started thinking of what I wanted for my life, stopped catering to my husband. 2 1/2 years ago I started sleeping in another room, tired of hearing my husband snore and sleeping with a pillow over my head. So many of my friends were against this. Why? Why should I have to sleep in the same bed with my husband and not sleep at night just to relieve his insecurity? This has been the attitude I have taken on, this is not just about my husband, I deserve what I want in life too. I have also learned to express this without blame or feeling guilty. I can say it's not perfect but would it be with someone else? I have already been married before and know that each relationship has its difficulties. I also understand that men focus more on sexual needs while women focus on emotional needs and without emotional needs being met it is hard for us to fulfill sexual needs of our husbands. You can beat away at that last statement and you can try to change it but it's not going to change, just like your husband is not going to change just because you want him to or you are hurt by his actions.

Long winded reply to say we each have to figure life out for ourselves. We also have to learn how to treat others and ask from our partners without expectations. I am not against divorce but too many on this board jump to divorce as a solution and it is not in all cases. We have to take a deep look within ourselves, figure out who we are and find a way to meet our own desires in life....sometimes it's not about the spouse.


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## PeaceLoveandSunshine

I can't believe I found this! I'm not totally crazy, after-all!

Let me start by saying, I have my own faults. Tons of them. I come from a severely dysfunctional family. I own my mistakes and apologize. I also apologize for making other people feel bad unintentionally. Yup, I'm the perfect mate for a PA! From the very beginning, he needed to be taken care of and I was happy to do it. I see that now. We now have 4 kids. Im forced to make most of the decisions. That way he holds no accountability yet, he makes the huge financial decisions. 

I say what I feel (within reason). I ask for what I want. For example, We were moving. My husband purchased a ginormous house. I said and repeated that, I would prefer a smaller house and have the money for a new car, vacations, decorate the new house etc...But, I'm ungrateful! He bought the monstrosity to make me happy. 

My life....
Me: "what time are you going to work tomorrow?
Him: "why?" (He will NEVER ANSWER A QUESTION with an answer. His response is ALWAYS a question!
Me: Because I need to get child 'C' somewhere and need to get in the bathroom
Him: "I get there at 8am everyday." (Tone of voice implying....you're stupid) 
2 days later.... It's 8:35am. I'm in the kitchen. He comes downstairs. Starts a conversation with me and leaves the room, while he's still talking. Now I'm deaf because I can't hear him. Leaves for work.....(keep in mind, that I'm dumb because he is ALWAYS at work by 8)

Another example, there are many many things that need to be fixed in our home. Instead of fixing the ice maker in the kitchen....he vacuums an already clean pool. Why????

The World sees him as the nicest guy that has ever lived! Trust me, I hear it all the time. I thought I married a MAN. He wont stick up for me, or his kids, even when it's blatantly necessary. IF he does, it's.....i know that my wife/child is wrong, but can you help me out and appease them by....

He has apologized 3x in our 21 year relationship. Yes 3 times. 2 of those were "I'm sorry you feel that way." Still not taking any responsibility for his part. Really? In 20+ years, you have never goofed up?

There's a ton more. You've probably already quit reading. I guess I just needed to vent with people that HEAR me.


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## Bobby5000

This was an interesting post. Let me add a view points on the male perspective. 

1. Most men like the idea of the strong father good but feared, like Brando in the G-dfather. The favorite song of men is Sinatra's my way. In contrast, many women see the ideal husband as one grateful for their taking over and using their skills to organize things and sometimes bark orders, and they expect deference and gratitude for their commitment to organizing the house and family. 

2. Women can be extremely delicate and careful with casual acquaintances, telling friends, or course, I couldn't tell that lady at the party that the scarve didn't match. As to husbands and families, it's different. A friend had numerous things to tell her daughter about a house purchase and when I suggested you proceed delicately complimenting her on other things, she said, I do not need to *****foot around my own daughter. Women can be blunt with their husbands, believing their role in improving their husbands and family to be critical, while men believe it would be nice to have kind words, admiration, and any criticism done occasionally and delicately. 

Note that many women do not practice what they preach. Give a woman some suggestions about losing weight, and interjecting what she should eat and they don't take it gently. Watch a women tell her husband 100 things and no one blinks. At a weekend, I was at a table with a man and his steady girlfriend. Dessert orders came and a pleasant but rotund lady asked her boyfriend is she should have a slice of the 7 layer cake and he said no. All the women at the table turned and one could not miss their looks of anger. Note these were the same women with hundreds if not thousands of suggestions and criticisms for their husbands which they expected to be greated with appreciation. Jack, you always get lost, make sure you get directions before, Fred last time you try to do the floor refinishing it was a mess so let's hire a professional, Sidney, check the schedule so you don't miss the appointment again. Yet here, the gentleman was offering help and apparently concerned about his girlfriend's health as well as appearance. The point is that men can be as sensitive about other things as women are about appearance. 

I sympathize with the wives who try to discuss things in an organized manner and husbands should be responsive. But what do you do with a torrent of comments, suggestions, and discussions of problems. How do you nicely say, "I am not in the mood" for nagging and complaining. Can one limit it to a 1-2 days a week, with the commitment to genuinely address issues then.


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