# Verbal Abuse Ends Marriage



## Hunter2727 (Mar 13, 2012)

I am a guy who has just been "woken" up by my wife. We separated in January, we she dropped the bomb on me and told me that she no longer loved me like a husband and wanted to separate.

We have 3 kids.

I am a fixer and my initial reaction was okay, let work this out and we can fix this.

I has been almost two months of separation and I have done a massive amount of work on myself. And she has finally shared with me what has happened to her.

We were married young and have 3 beautiful kids now. I have criticized her our entire marriage. After reading Patricia Evans book "Controlling People" I realize that I had an imaginary woman in my mind that I was always comparing my wife to and she was always coming up short. The net result is her self confidence eroded to the point when began to loath herself and she became very sad to being on the brink of depressed.

What is even more tragic, is that I had no idea of what was happening and that I was causing all of our issues in our marriage through my verbal abuse. Evans describes this as being under a spell. It is true, I thought that I was just being honest with her and holding her to the same level of accountabilty I held myself to. I did not realize what I was actually doing was not projecting an imaginary person into her and not accepting her as a person. I no longer saw her as a real person, but rather someone who should know what I wanted at all times and should always be supportive and meet my immature emotional needs.

My wife describes it as one day it was just over for her. And she disconnected. Now that we are separated she is refinding herself and says that he life is better than it has ever been.

I want to fight for the marriage, but my wife keeps telling me that there is no marriage and that she justs needs to get healthy. I now understand what I have done with my verbal abuse with my understanding am committed to change. My actions have demonstrated that I have already changed significantly. I have worked with two pyschologists and am now joined up with a men's group called "Men and their emotions".

I have so many questions. My wife has been a stay at home mom and I have always worked really hard to provide well for our family. I also have always been 100% committed to her.

I still feel such a deep love for her. I now understand that love is compassion and acceptance. And that what I should have done is to celebrate her for who she is and have accepted her instead of always wanting her to change to my imaginary standard I had in my mind.

Should I just forget about her and move on? Will she ever come back? What is the right thing to do? What is the right process?

I am so lost. I am very successful in business and in my life in general, after being dumped, I am sitting here on my butt, literally in a daze. Not knowing what to do.

Any support is appreciated.


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## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby (Nov 7, 2011)

Yes, move on.

My ex was very abusive verbally. To some point physically. I lived a year in pure hell. I left. I'm very strong in standing up for myself. I didn't let anyone bring me down no matter how many times they criticized me or told me how worthless I was. To this day he still calls me worthless. I could care less what he thinks. 

He never recognized his abuse, he blames everything on everyone else. I should of known better when he told my parents before we married that he has no respect for women. This includes his own children. He clearly has serious issues. 

It didn't take long to disconnect from my ex h. I moved out and filed for divorce right away. His gf moved in 3 days after I left, but he had it in his mind I was coming back. I never ever had any intentions of reconciling with him. The thought of it made me sick for what he had done. 

If your wife says she's moved on, she's telling the truth. I doubt she'll get back together with you. The damage is done. Even if you got back together, what are the chances of you falling in the same patterns? I do think it's best to start fresh.

It's a very good thing you sought help for your actions. In my exes case, his abuse worsened over the years. His wife puts up with it.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

Hunter,

Where are the kids? How are the bills getting paid? Who is paying your wife's rent?


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

I'd say let it go. She clearly does not want to be with you; now that she's apart from you she's finding life better than ever.

As far as resolving your own issues, I'd say don't place too much stock in what she says about your faults. People in general (and, it seems, women in particular) tend to be masterful blame shifters. She could be in denial about what she did to the relationship or could just be trying to hurt you.

My ex claimed persistent, long-term verbal and emotional abuse on my part, simply for pointing out that she was treating me badly (no sex), that she was shirking her responsibility to me, and insisting on better. I've totally BTDT. You're better off examining your issues with the help of an unbiased professional.

A warning: if she's tossing out a litany of allegations against you like this and is really that fed up, you need to prepare for a nasty divorce. The emnity she has for you (justified or not) will likely impact how she deals with you overall and even how she portrays you to your kids. Get a lawyer (like yesterday), find out what you need to do to protect your assets and rights to your kids, and gird yourself for battle.


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## confusedhousewife (Feb 25, 2012)

I have to tell you, I am on the receiving end of your situation. My husband, who I have separated from, is in your shoes with very similar circumstances. He wasn't trying to change me or anything, but he has been extremely hurtful with the things he says and does for years. For example, when i had the dishwasher open to let the water evaporate before putting the dishes away, he said "Are you doing to put these away or are you just looking at them?" He thought he was being funny but it was insulting and hurtful and not a way to treat a spouse. That was just par for the course. I could list more examples all day. But back to your situation, as the person on the receiving end of the verbal abuse, I know I can say I can't see getting back together with my husband. I don't want to put myself back in that position to feel degraded on a daily basis again. however, my husband is a "I can deal with it myself...I don't need help" kind of guy who thinks I need to get therapy for feeling like I do about him (yeah seriously). You seem like you are actually trying to improve the situation and solve the problem. Whether she will be receptive to that or not, I can not say. So, I can't tell you what will happen or what you should do. I can tell you that my husband has been harassing the tar out of me by calling, texting, and trying to visit ever since the separation and just reminding me daily that he doesn't respect me or my needs one bit, so I would suggest avoiding that route.


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## LovesHerMan (Jul 28, 2011)

You are in a tough spot because your wife is no longer willing to be vulnerable to you because you have hurt her so much.

I would write her a letter telling her what you have learned about yourself, and how you want to start a new marriage with her.

Read it over before you give it to her, and make sure that you do not blame her in any way so that she does not feel defensive. Tell her how you fell in love with her when you were first courting. Be careful not to seem like you are begging, but try to have her recall when the marriage was good.

I think you should fight for your marriage. Your wife will be leery of trusting you, but at least you will know that you gave it your best shot.


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## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

What you describe is not verbal abuse.

Irrational expectations and constant criticism is being a jerk..but something an adult brings up from time to time. If you had no idea you were doing it I'm assuming she never told you.

Verbal abuse is beating a person down with words. Is that what you did? If so....let her go. 

Actually either way let her go. She seems to have found peace without you. It really really sucks cause you clearly love her.


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## Sully6 (Mar 3, 2010)

I will differ from most that have posted before me. I was in your shoes almost to a tee. I wasn't trying to do what I did, but just didn't recognize it. Long story short, after a very expensive counseling retreat that we were fortunate to afford where I was beaten down by the counselor pretty good (he worked with Navy Seals, Judges, Celebrities and many who are used to having power), I finally realized the feelings my wife had endured as a consequence of my actions. It really is up to you. It will require self analysis (reading books which I never did), learning new means of communication and finding the ability to not always convince her to see things your way. This process will take longer than most due to the lengthy damage and deep scarring your wife has experienced. She will likely need her freedom much more than you would prefer, but you will need that space for her to be able to see the changes that you are making. It will take more time because she won't think the changes are permanent and even when she does, she will have a hard time forgetting. That history is there. The healing will only start getting better as good memories start overwriting the bad.... Slowly... The bad news is that this will take a long time and a lot of pain (it took me two years). The good news is that it can be done. We have done it I am glad to say. So it comes down to whether you feel you can handle the fight. I/we found the strength and am so happy I/we did. Things are so much better. The down side is I don't know if I could ever find that type of strength again. I am constantly trying to remember my past agony and hers so that I won't have to. Good luck. You can do it if your heart tells you to. Dig deep and commit to making yourself and your relationship better, but it will need to be at her pace not yours... and that's tough for someone who is organized, and likes to control things even if that is not their intent (trust me).


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## savannah (Apr 4, 2008)

it's hard to face.. but sometimes, when two people aren't good to each other... they are twice as bad if there are kids involved. 

If you certainly cannot co-exist productively together it becomes a matter of who (or can there be change) will change because there are kids involved- 

and whether as a whole, are you better off not being together.... CHANGE is a big word ... ask yourself WHAT CAN BE DONE.. If your want this to work, a lot of change must be made to make the family whole, starting with the two of you...


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## itgetsbetter (Mar 1, 2012)

sinnister said:


> What you describe is not verbal abuse.


Six of one, half a dozen of another. He emotionally abused her from what he described...he did so verbally. Emotional abuse? Verbal abuse? Doesn't matter. He clearly agrees he was abusive.



sinnister said:


> If you had no idea you were doing it I'm assuming she never told you.


I don't know if you've ever lived in this sort of relationship, but I was raised in one. And then it also existed in first marriage, among other things.

She may have told him dozens of times, directly and indirectly. Someone who is emotionally abusive rarely MEANS to be or may not even realize they are...even in the face of evidence. Who wants to believe they are so cruel? People justify, justify, justify. We all do...through our own faults...every day.

____________________

OP, my ex did similar things to me...I was supposed to morph into this other person he expected me to be and when I wasn't, I was torn down verbally and sometimes physically. I never knew I wasn't supposed to be me anymore after we married 

My husband did a lot worse things to me though than what you describe. Even so, if he'd really recognized what he'd done...sought many venues of help...*changed* and asked my forgiveness? It would have meant everything to me. I would have continued to try to work things through. In fact, that's what I thought was going on when I discovered his millionth EA and this time (how many others I don't know), PA. 

However, as I'm sure you know, you cannot make your wife turn back to you. If she's made up her mind that you get no more chances, get ready for the sad world of divorce. It's very hard even when leaving a bad marriage. You continue to work on yourself though, and however things end up...you will be ok. Best wishes!


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## River1977 (Oct 25, 2010)

DTO said:


> As far as resolving your own issues, I'd say don't place too much stock in what she says about your faults. People in general (and, it seems, women in particular) tend to be masterful blame shifters. She could be in denial about what she did to the relationship or could just be trying to hurt you.
> 
> My ex claimed persistent, long-term verbal and emotional abuse on my part, simply for pointing out that she was treating me badly (no sex), that she was shirking her responsibility to me, and insisting on better. I've totally BTDT. You're better off examining your issues with the help of an unbiased professional.
> 
> A warning: if she's tossing out a litany of allegations against you like this and is really that fed up, you need to prepare for a nasty divorce. The emnity she has for you (justified or not) will likely impact how she deals with you overall and even how she portrays you to your kids. Get a lawyer (like yesterday), find out what you need to do to protect your assets and rights to your kids, and gird yourself for battle.


Geez, Hunter, I sure am glad for your sake that you are not like this guy. We are all blame-shifting females who are in denial and lying on our poor innocent husbands. I don't know if you noticed yet, but the majority of complaints among the women on these boards and all the forums like it are exactly as you describe - how their husband is abusive in some, if not many, forms. Oops, I almost forgot.......we're all just blame-shifting females who are in denial and lying on our poor innocent husbands.

And, for your sake, you'd better never become this guy DTO. He will never learn. But you, on the other hand, sound like you are learning from your mistakes and trying to become a better man. Sadly, I fear it is too late for your marriage, but it may, at least hopefully, make you a better man for the next one - the next one who, like your wife, deserves to be treated well (and does NOT deserve to be treated like crap) just as your wife deserved all the long.

You sound remorseful, and please believe me when I say I think you are a very big person for admitting what you did to your wife. I think you deserve happiness in your future and truly believe you will find it as long as you stay on this path of self improvement. Again sadly, I don't think it will be with your wife. I don't even think it SHOULD be with your wife because she needs to find herself again and re-establish the person she truly is and be able to heal and overcome all the years you beat her down. She spent all these years walking on eggshells in futile effort to avoid your criticisms, putdowns, and emotional battering. She spent all these years losing her sense of self, her confidence, her self esteem, and her own sense of self worth. I think you should accept the demise of your marriage and allow her to move on and regain all that you robbed from her. 

I wish more women were like your wife. It is absolutely sickening to me how women usually stay in the kind of relationships you describe, which is rather tame compared to how bad abuse usually escalates to. And, they stay in those terrible marriages also, while men like DTO blames THEM for the abuse the men inflict. I have no idea why women stay and put up with all that. I have no idea why your wife stayed for this long, but she has determined she's finally had enough. She doesn't have to and really should not be expected to accept or believe that you have changed. Even if she does, she sounds like the typical Walk Away Wife, who is fed up and has no more love left.

Again, I really commend you for learning and accepting your faults and for being determined to change your behavior. I don't know if you noticed this either, but the main complaint among men on these boards is no sex, just like DTO stated above. Men normally do not admit to anything on boards like this. They normally refuse to even entertain they, themselves, are, or even might be, the reason their wives have turned away emotionally and sexually. Maybe it will take more women like your wife for the guys like DTO to wake up as you have done although DTO still has not. After all, I am talking about the fact that women don't (or very, very seldom) leave. They stay and just keep putting up with it unknowingly fortifying their men with more amunition every single day. Think about it: Had she never left, you would never have woken to become, albeit somewhat forcibly, such the better man and much better able to prepare and provide for your own future happiness. If she comes back, it will be a looooong haaaarrrrd road to recovery for your marriage and relationship because even though she will have decided to return and work on things, she will hold you to task practically every minute of your life. She will likely be very resentful and take it out on you. I don't know that you will be happy with that at all. You might even end up being the one to give up next time. 

But who knows. She just might need to know you have really changed and will come around at some point soon enough. If reconciling is truly what you hope for, then don't give up on her. Ask her to attend marriage counseling with you. Tell her that even though she does not want the marriage anymore, she at least deserves to be able to talk with the counselor. Good therapists are often able to convince wifey to give it one last chance.


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## MrK (Sep 2, 2010)

River1977 said:


> Sadly, I fear it is too late for your marriage, but it may, at least hopefully, make you a better man for the next one.


I can guarantee it it too late for this one. Time to leave. I finally gave up my two and a half years of hell trying to make her love me again. Not gonna' happen. It won't with you either. She's gone. Time to move on with your life. I wish someone told me that three years ago. I might be happy now. Instead, I die a little more every night when she comes to bed and turns her back to me like I'm not even there. Every night.

You ready to endure that? No? Then it's time to leave. You will ALWAYS be the abuser. Always. You will go 6 months as the perfect gentleman. One slip-up. Or worse, one misunderstood comment and you're back to square one. The abusive husband never left you.

Save yourself a lot of anguish and let her leave. She's gone. Time to start over for you. I'm just one person with that perspective. But I've spent almost 3 years on these forums. A huge percentage of wives emotionally leave the marriage. They RARELY come back. Yo willing to go through years of painful Hell for what the odds say will be a losing cause?

Sorry, but it's over. Don't make my mistake. Just leave now.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

River1977 said:


> Geez, Hunter, I sure am glad for your sake that you are not like this guy. We are all blame-shifting females who are in denial and lying on our poor innocent husbands. I don't know if you noticed yet, but the majority of complaints among the women on these boards and all the forums like it are exactly as you describe - how their husband is abusive in some, if not many, forms. Oops, I almost forgot.......we're all just blame-shifting females who are in denial and lying on our poor innocent husbands.
> 
> And, for your sake, you'd better never become this guy DTO. He will never learn. But you, on the other hand, sound like you are learning from your mistakes and trying to become a better man. Sadly, I fear it is too late for your marriage, but it may, at least hopefully, make you a better man for the next one - the next one who, like your wife, deserves to be treated well (and does NOT deserve to be treated like crap) just as your wife deserved all the long.
> 
> ...


I did not say that all women are blame shifters. I DID say that people in general tend to blame shift, but that women are more likely to use this sort of emotional attack. A guy IMO is much more able to say "hey, it did not work, let's go our own ways" and much less likely to want to assign blame or punish.

Whether you agree with my generalizations or not, the crux of my advice is based on the fact that people lash out and hurt others during emotionally trying times. His wife may or may not be doing this. Not that I did not tell him to disregard his ex's feelings, but rather to get unbiased professional input.

You are not in my home and have no right to pass judgment on me. Your logic to be that if my ex alleged abuse then it must have happened - which is ironic, because you are doing (to an extreme) exactly what you have accused me of doing.

An earlier post contains a detailed history of my marriage. My ex was not capable of a normal sex life, knew she had issues (her words, not my assumption), and refused to get help (again, her words). Still, she proposed marriage for her own reasons and hid her issues because she knew I would not marry her otherwise (once again, her words). After, when I asked "what about sex", she blamed me even though she never intended to provide. I was a pervert; she claimed sex that never happened; I did not make enough money for her to be into it; etc. Sounds a lot like emotional abuse, doesn't it?

Eventually (after many years) I found the courage to assert my needs as equal to hers. I reminded her of her promises, her responsibility to fulfill those promises, and her failure to meet that responsibility. And, I started doing essentially the 180 that you read about here. None of that is abusive; it is merely appropriate responses to specific problematic behaviors.

So then, why did she claim abuse? She did merely because her actions carried consequences. I stopped being at her beck and call. I did more for myself and less for her. I never forced her to do anything, but would not pretend to be content. Basically, I did not let her off the hook and accept scraps of sex. But, in her mind, I owed her a life free from discomfort or compromise on her part, and failure to provide that was abuse.

If you are still convinced that I must have been an abuser based on her claims, consider that I have extensive professional input saying otherwise


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Hunter2727 I think it excellent to have such a good sense of personal responsibility, but I think you are taking it way too far.


Your wife is an adult and as such she should have tried to get the problems between the two of you fixed. She didn’t, she upped and left you.

There will be far more to the reasons why she left you than you will ever be able to see or know about, let alone be able to do anything about them.




Why on earth are you so deeply in love with a woman you have created in your own mind? I doubt you even know your wife and if you were to get to know her you’d discover she’s not a woman you’d want to spend time with anyway!


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## Locard (May 26, 2011)

1. I wonder what his name is. 

2. Your wife just put her chidren at a HUGE disadvantage for her own selfishness. Stop apologizing. Don't buy into all the man shaming language that has been thrown at you. If she was telling you the truth she would have given you a chance, at least for the kids sake. Part of the problem is the constant bombardment of divorce porn crammed down our throats. 

"Abuse" is a tern tossed around WAY too often.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

Hunter2727 said:


> I had no idea of what was happening and that I was causing all of our issues in our marriage


Hunter,

In my former state of "being under the spell" I had the erroneous belief that somehow unless one was married to one self it would be impossible for that person to individually cause all the issues in their marriage, all on their own. After all, there are two individual persons in most marriages and with relationship equality being all that it is these days, I would have thought that both partners would share responsibility, at least some of it if not equally. 

That said, like yourself, I have caused all the issues in my marriage. This is one thing my wife and I can completely agree on. I was (am) singularly responsible for all the problems in our marriage and I am the (only) one who needs to change for anything to improve. When I finally figured this all out and started owning up to it, I started seeing dramatic improvements in my floundering marriage. The almost imperceptible shift from saying "I'm sorry for all the trouble I caused" to "I'm sorry. I caused all the trouble" really made all the difference. A simple rephrasing changed my life from torture to bliss.

The cool thing about the abuse label is that it can be self applied by anyone without any objective standard. Once judgement is pronounced, the label itself becomes sufficient evidence to establish the guilt of the labeled party. There are always plenty of supporters for anyone (female) who judges their (male) partner to be abusive. This can really shift the balance of power in the relationship. Whether or not it is founded, the belief that one is powerless or that one deserves more power than they have can be debilitating. When a woman labels her husband abusive, she dramatically increases her personal power.


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## Complexity (Dec 31, 2011)

Having grown up in an emotionally abusive household I say grant your wife some mercy and leave her alone.


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## Hunter2727 (Mar 13, 2012)

Thanks to everyone who replied.

Here is an update. I have learnt so much about myself now that I think it is sad that I may not get a second chance and someone else will be the beneficiary of what I have now learned about intimacy. And that I desire intimacy with my wife more than anything. And I mean intimacy in a true sense (being compassionate and accepting of each and enjoying life together while raising our family).

However, I fear that that ship has sailed. I cannot change the past and I cannot change her feelings. I fear that she may always see me as her abuser.

I was abusive, but I am no longer. I have woken up and now am ready to treat my significant other with acceptance and to allow them to flourish.

What really hurts is that I really tried to support my wife throughout our relationship. I was constantly 'at her' to go back to school and to pursue anything and everything she desired. But I now realize that she was just not ready to do that and the pressure that I put on her to take care of herself, actually made her feel bad about herself. The opposite effect.

My approach going forward is just to learn how to be a great single dad. I have 3 little kids that are awesome and I want to be there every step of the way.

I have been the sole income earner for the family, so I will have to keep on doing that as best I can. I have to admit though, I have had trouble keeping a high level of excellence at work. It is really hard because I feel like I have been run over by a tank. And the tank has backed up and is just sitting on me now.

At the encouragement of my wife, I have booked a trip to Cuba with an old friend from junior high. And I really look forward to the trip and hanging out with him. However, being a family man, this will be the first trip ever away without my family and will be hard for me to see my previous life when families are playing in Cuba resorts.

When we were married, I traded in my motorcycle to buy my wife's ring. This summer I plan to get back into dirt biking and take some time for myself. I have spent the last 14 years literally work very hard during the day and renovating our houses, so that we would have a nice home to live in.

I cannot tell everyone how sad I am. I have never felt this way before. This is the truth.

I have always been an avid reader and have been very developed and mature in what I thought was my entire life. Now I realize that at home I was a child. I have read so many books that I am almost self helped out.

The journey that I am on now is to actually write a story about me. I am going to truly identify who I am. I am guessing this will take about 6 months to really get it right.

I believe once I have completed this excercise, I will never again be an abuser of anyone, because I will no longer have the need to control anyone based out of my insecurity. I will know who I am.

I think I already know who I am. But I just lost my way. Or perhaps I was a grown up (child in grown body) and not an adult. So...this is a great time for me to figure all of these things out.

Lastly, my wife has told that we need to see things through. That we must file for a legal separation. She wants to find herself and be happy again. We are going to buy her a separate house. She does not want the house we are in because she says I have done too much work to it and she doesn't feel right staying there.

The house we can affort to buy for her will cost about 1/2 as much and not be nice at all. She suggested that I move back into our home (I am living in an apartment now). She says that if we both get healthy then we can re-evaluate how we both feel. At at some time down the road, when we are both healthy, we can determine at that time if we want to get back together.

I truly do want the best for her. I always have. And I want the best for my kids. I hope that by giving her this space (we will be legally separated, with no ties other than a joint account to pass money to her), that she will be able to heal.

I told her that when I was married it was for life and that I will not move on until she says:

~ she has met someone else. I have asked her out of respect that I be the first to know. She has agreed with this.
~ we have been legally separated for one year at which time we will file for divorce.

Anyhow, I know this is a huge dump, but I am sure you can tell I hurt deeply and wished there was a second chance.

But, I am determined to walk this through and be healthy.

All thoughts are appreciated.

Thanks in advance.


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## Hunter2727 (Mar 13, 2012)

Quick add on.

My wife is not open to allowing me to share anything with her. She says that she is on her journey and I need to be on mine. I have tried to tell her about what I have been learning and the changes that I have but she does not want to hear it.

A few days ago she said to me "Why is the expectation that I should just get over it, just because you have changed?"

What I liked about that statement is that she did say that she has seen at least some changes. But I know that she is hurting very badly and I also now believe the only way for her to heal is on her own.

And maybe she will come back.


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## LovesHerMan (Jul 28, 2011)

"Why is the expectation that I should just get over it, just because you have changed?"

Tell her that you don't think she should just get over it, but that you want the chance to start a new marriage. That you want to show her that you are a new man.

Best of luck to you. I hope that your wife will be able to overcome her resentments. There is nothing sweeter than a marriage that has come back to life.


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## MidwestDave (Jun 18, 2009)

Hunter2727 said:


> What is even more tragic, is that I had no idea of what was happening and that I was causing all of our issues in our marriage through my verbal abuse. Evans describes this as being under a spell. It is true, I thought that I was just being honest with her and holding her to the same level of accountabilty I held myself to.
> 
> I did not realize what I was actually doing was not projecting an imaginary person into her and not accepting her as a person. I no longer saw her as a real person, but rather someone who should know what I wanted at all times and should always be supportive and meet my immature emotional needs.


What's unclear to me is exactly how you were ABUSING her verbally. I get accused of this when I DISAGREE with my wife about something that is important to me. And if I get mad about something, the VERBAL ABUSE phrase gets tossed out there, because that's an easy way to end an uncomfortable discussion. So it becomes a situation where I am afraid to ever disagree with her because I am afraid I will again be tagged with this label. And that leads to burying resentment and that leads to a slow poisoning of the marriage.

What I am saying is that it is wrong to use the accusation of "verbal abuse" as weapons in an argument. Pointing out that you are hurt by someone's unfair actions and that you disagree with them is NOT verbal abuse. If you are calling your spouse degrading names or personally attacking them or belittling them that is different, and yes that absolutely has abusive elements.

You don't get into the particulars of what was said that was abusive so I am not sure I totally understand your situation. But you mention your "immature emotional needs". Are you sure they were so immature and inconsequential? They must have been significant to you or you would not have voiced them. And like it is OK for her to be a "real person" likewise she should see you as a "real person" and allow you to have faults.

But it comes down to the details of what transpired between you, and that is hard to convey here.


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

> "Why is the expectation that I should just get over it, just because you have changed?"


Perhaps the expectation has roots in those very unimportant vows and promises she thought of when she married you?

No one recovers from hurt in a snap, but the right thing for her to do is to try to save her marriage. That's indeed an "expectation" she signed herself into when she got married. No one should just walk away from a deep emotional contract like marriage.

Don't believe the media and society's sickening advocacy of divorce. Women are bluntly being encouraged to leave their husbands for the simple excuse of "not being happy". They label anything and everything as "abuse" and they make you believe you are an abuser.

I'm not saying you're not an abuser. You very well might have been. But you are also a husband and a father. Your wife's first priority should be to stay in her marriage. If she's not being abused right now and sees positive changes in you, she has the moral obligation to stand by her vows.


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## River1977 (Oct 25, 2010)

synthetic said:


> Perhaps the expectation has roots in those very unimportant vows and promises she thought of when she married you?
> 
> No one recovers from hurt in a snap, but the right thing for her to do is to try to save her marriage. That's indeed an "expectation" she signed herself into when she got married. No one should just walk away from a deep emotional contract like marriage.
> 
> ...


Oh brother. Just what we need - all the women who should have left long ago and have no business still sitting their arses there taking his abuse are now going to think they SHOULD sit there continuing to put up with it. Nothing that has been stated of how a woman feels about being abused means anything. None of the testimony from abused women means anything. So in other words, she is SUPPOSED to sit there and take it just because she was duped into marrying. After all, no man socks a woman in the eye or calls her a useless b*tch upon meeting her. He plays his best charming behavior to get her to fall in love with him, then he turns into himself when he thinks the time is right. What is SICKENING is they DON'T leave him. What is SICKENING is they don't leave for the lame excuse of "I love him."

Yes, ladies, stay there and continue to be hit and beaten, continue to be controlled and treated like a child, continue to be blamed as being the reason HE treats YOU like sh*t, continue to be his doormat, continue to be verbally and emotionally battered, continue to be degraded and minimized, continue wondering whether Dr. Jekyll or Mr. Hyde will come home from work today, continue walking on eggshells not knowing when he will explode or otherwise say something else insulting, continue to live under the threat of his anger and judgment......just because you met the guy......just because you fell for the person he made you THINK he was when you first met him. Yes, please do stay there and just keep on wishing that fake person will return to you.

UGH!


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## abandonedcompletely (Dec 21, 2011)

River1977 said:


> Oh brother. Just what we need - all the women who should have left long ago and have no business still sitting their arses there taking his abuse are now going to think they SHOULD sit there continuing to put up with it. Nothing that has been stated of how a woman feels about being abused means anything. None of the testimony from abused women means anything. So in other words, she is SUPPOSED to sit there and take it just because she was duped into marrying. After all, no man socks a woman in the eye or calls her a useless b*tch upon meeting her. He plays his best charming behavior to get her to fall in love with him, then he turns into himself when he thinks the time is right. What is SICKENING is they DON'T leave him. What is SICKENING is they don't leave for the lame excuse of "I love him."
> 
> Yes, ladies, stay there and continue to be hit and beaten, continue to be controlled and treated like a child, continue to be blamed as being the reason HE treats YOU like sh*t, continue to be his doormat, continue to be verbally and emotionally battered, continue to be degraded and minimized, continue wondering whether Dr. Jekyll or Mr. Hyde will come home from work today, continue walking on eggshells not knowing when he will explode or otherwise say something else insulting, continue to live under the threat of his anger and judgment......just because you met the guy......just because you fell for the person he made you THINK he was when you first met him. Yes, please do stay there and just keep on wishing that fake person will return to you.
> 
> UGH!


I was going to post, but you said it so much better.

I can't believe how some people think. Somehow, leaving an abusive relationship is much worse than the abuse??? 

UGH!!!


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## FrankKissel (Nov 14, 2011)

synthetic said:


> Perhaps the expectation has roots in those very unimportant vows and promises she thought of when she married you?
> 
> No one recovers from hurt in a snap, but the right thing for her to do is to try to save her marriage. That's indeed an "expectation" she signed herself into when she got married. No one should just walk away from a deep emotional contract like marriage.
> 
> ...


Really? You're talking about vows?
Here you have one party who has admitted to repeatedly violating his vows - you know, those silly ones about love, honor and respect - and yet it's the wife who's morally deficient in your eyes for not taking him back because he wants to change?
Ugh.
The "deep emotional contract" was voided long ago and she has no obligation - moral or otherwise - to abide by the terms of a contract he's already broken. The contract is dead.
If she chooses to try to work it out, great. But she clearly has no obligation to do it. And to claim that she owes it to him because she's not being abused "right now" is ridiculous.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

> Yes, ladies, stay there and continue to be hit and beaten, continue to be controlled and treated like a child, continue to be blamed as being the reason HE treats YOU like sh*t, continue to be his doormat, continue to be verbally and emotionally battered, continue to be degraded and minimized, continue wondering whether Dr. Jekyll or Mr. Hyde will come home from work today, continue walking on eggshells not knowing when he will explode or otherwise say something else insulting, continue to live under the threat of his anger and judgment......just because you met the guy......just because you fell for the person he made you THINK he was when you first met him. Yes, please do stay there and just keep on wishing that fake person will return to you.


Slow down cowgirl.

Facts based on what has been posted:

- There is no abuse in the relationship anymore. 
- The abuse being talked about is all verbal and the extent of it doesn't sound all that severe (like most cases where the term abuse gets thrown around)
- It sounds like the original poster's wife was overly pushed to attain a higher social status via education (or other things). This may have gotten abusive at times, but to equate it to physical abuse or severe verbal abuse mixed with anger is just ridiculous.
- I strongly feel the so called abused wife in this relationship also had a part in her husband expecting too much from her. She like many stay-at-home women may have depicted images of a dissatisfied person who yearns to do more with her life but is simply unable to get their act together or is too lazy. I have known many women like that in my life. 

Divorce is not justified in this particular case based on the information given.


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## TexasDad (Mar 17, 2012)

River1977 said:


> Geez, Hunter, I sure am glad for your sake that you are not like this guy. We are all blame-shifting females who are in denial and lying on our poor innocent husbands. I don't know if you noticed yet, but the majority of complaints among the women on these boards and all the forums like it are exactly as you describe - how their husband is abusive in some, if not many, forms. Oops, I almost forgot.......we're all just blame-shifting females who are in denial and lying on our poor innocent husbands.
> 
> And, for your sake, you'd better never become this guy DTO. He will never learn. But you, on the other hand, sound like you are learning from your mistakes and trying to become a better man. Sadly, I fear it is too late for your marriage, but it may, at least hopefully, make you a better man for the next one - the next one who, like your wife, deserves to be treated well (and does NOT deserve to be treated like crap) just as your wife deserved all the long.
> 
> ...



I see what DTO is saying. It takes two for most bad marriages to evolve. The perception of husbands trying to control their wives does not just happen. For example, my wife has labeled me as controlling when it comes to money. But if you watched your spouse buy crap that never is used to the degree I have, you would understand there comes a point where financial scrutiny increases. My wife would go to the dollar store and BLOW $100 on CRAP! She would buy table cloths we have never used, seasonal table decorations for a holiday over 6 months away (that was never used or seen again), buy winter clothes for a 4 and 6 year old in August (just because they were "on sale"), open department store charge accounts to save 15% (then forget to pay the bill and resulting in late fees and credit issues) for CRAP that was never used or worn. So let's realize it does take two to tango here. People that can not or will not recognize their own contribution to a bad marriage are likely more at fault. My wife also likes to demean me by telling my kids bad (many times blatantly false) BS about me only to attempt to create an advocate. So DTO has a point. Many people in a bad marriage do pass the buck---whether it be the husband or wife. Most men aren't born controlling. Most men don't enter into a marriage a "control freaks.". They are often driven to that point. My wife has grown progressively lazy over the years. She wanted to be a stay-at-home mom and our agreement was that she would take care of laundry, cooking, and keeping the house clean. But I clean, cook, and do far more laundry than she ever does. I also drive my kids to school everyday. She merely goes out and wastes money and then calls me controlling when it comes to money. We are now in debt up to our eyeballs because of her spending and she just thinks the bills will take care of themselves!!!! So let's realize, most bad marriages got that way because of BOTH participants in the marriage!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## endlessgrief (Feb 19, 2012)

Verbal abuse causes so much pain. My father is verbally abusive and right now I am trying to extricate myself from the family due to this.

I think it is great that you are self-reflecting and trying to change. Not many people self-reflect and they blame blame blame. 

Depending on how deeply your remarks hurt her, you may have a chance. I do, however, understand her need to disconnect from you emotionally because someone can't hurt you if you don't care about them. Those we love have the power to damage to us because we trust them.

Hang in there and keep working on yourself. Married or not, you will become a better man in the long run.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

synthetic said:


> Slow down cowgirl.
> 
> Facts based on what has been posted:
> 
> ...


The OP has not given any real examples of the abuse that even he admits to. The wife is not here to tell her side of the story. The OP said that he was abusive... perhaps it would be wise to believe him on this and not just assume that the wife is making a mountain out of a mole hill. You were not there. The OP was. His wife was.


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> The OP has not given any real examples of the abuse that even he admits to. The wife is not here to tell her side of the story. The OP said that he was abusive... perhaps it would be wise to believe him on this and not just assume that the wife is making a mountain out of a mole hill. You were not there. The OP was. His wife was.


I disagree with equating his brief admission with hard evidence of abuse.

The state he is in (in love with a wife who wants no part of it, hence feeling powerless) could potentially nullify much of the guilt he's feeling and expressing on this forum.

Going by what he said, he continually held his wife to higher standards than his wife felt comfortable with. In the process, he most likely belittled her on more than one occasion and caused a lot of resentment.

Assuming (just assuming) the wife failed to properly communicate her resentments and concerns over the years, and considering the fact that she harbored 3 children with him, she is wrong to suddenly pull the plug on the marriage.

Interestingly enough, if we believe the original poster, the bad habits we are calling "abuse" have now been rectified. This suggests that there was indeed a lack of communication and owning up to responsibility on the wife's part over the years. Being a stay-at-home mom, she could've had ample time to educate herself on the consequences of the poisoned relationship and attempted to address them. In all fairness, she might have actually done that, but the original poster's story suggests otherwise.

Again, based on the information provided here, a sudden end to this relationship (with 3 children) is just wrong.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

synthetic said:


> I disagree with equating his brief admission with hard evidence of abuse.
> 
> The state he is in (in love with a wife who wants no part of it, hence feeling powerless) could potentially nullify much of the guilt he's feeling and expressing on this forum.
> 
> ...


without more info we don't know what did or did not go on.

Perhaps the OP could give us a couple of blow by blow examples of what he and his wife considered abuse.

And did the OP's wife tell the OP that she felt belittled, abused, etc at the time?


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

TexasDad said:


> Many people in a bad marriage do pass the buck---whether it be the husband or wife. Most men aren't born controlling. Most men don't enter into a marriage a "control freaks.". They are often driven to that point.


Or, sometimes it's as simple as either partner does not understand that when you are married, your actions impact others and that puts limits on what you can do.

People get the mistaken idea that what they do is nobody else's business - period. So, when TexasDad mentions his wife's spending habits (which harm the family), she forgets that she is accountable to him and whips out the "controlling" label. Or, if he has to make it a real issue and she feels bad, it becomes "abuse" instead of a serious discussion.


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

This whole "controlling" business is just like "abuse". It's a word that gets thrown around all the time and is considered a sin in marriage without having been properly defined within the general public.

A wife who doesn't want her husband to flirt with other women is called "controlling" these days.

A husband who puts himself in charge of the financials (due to good reasons) is called "controlling".

This one really gets me:

Stay at home moms who often nag about their lifestyle and how they wish they could develop a career with a proper social life. They drive their husbands to the point of having no choice but to be overly encouraging/frustrated with the wife's wishes that never materialize. Once they realize their laziness is preventing them from achieving any goals outside mothering their children, they start blaming the husband for being "controlling", "abusive" and "asking for too much".

Everyone seems to forget that it wasn't the husband who started this downward spiral in the first place. This is a common occurrence in marriages that involve a sole bread-winner.

If someone wants to stay at home and take care of children, they're making a choice. They should not call it a "sacrifice", because it's not. When you have children, you owe them a good healthy environment full of love and safety. You're not sacrificing your youth for your children. You're just being a parent. Don't ever hold things like that against your spouse or children.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

Hunter2727 said:


> Lastly, my wife has told that we need to see things through. *That we must file for a legal separation. She wants to find herself and be happy again.* We are going to buy her a separate house. She does not want the house we are in because she says I have done too much work to it and she doesn't feel right staying there.
> 
> The house we can affort to buy for her will cost about 1/2 as much and not be nice at all. She suggested that I move back into our home (I am living in an apartment now). *She says that if we both get healthy then we can re-evaluate how we both feel. At at some time down the road, when we are both healthy, we can determine at that time if we want to get back together.*



Sounds like she's throwing you a bone for her benefit rather than yours. Forget the legal separation and file for divorce. Putting your life on hold until she decides to come back to you is an exercise in futility.

It would be interesting to find out if there is or isn't another man involved. Keep your eyes and ears open for there may be more to this than you have been lead to believe.


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## LMatilda (Oct 22, 2015)

Hunter,

Hello,
I came across this thread now (three years later), and I was wondering what has happened to you and your then wife since? I mean, did you move on and met another woman who you have put all you have learned in practice? Or did you get your wife back? 
Could you give an update?

I am curious because I am currently in your (then) wife's situation. We separated 6 months ago for similar reasons, and I cannot get back with him because well, my fears of getting back to the same patterns are just way too powerful - I suffered so much during the marriage, that my mind and body no longer respond to the thought of getting back together. I also feel a massive instinct to protect our little daughter from witnessing the negative behaviour and rage attacks. He promised so many times to change (every time I tried to leave) and didn't, and even now he claims he's changed (and he might) but I just cannot see it anywhere...I see it more like a mask to try and convince me... You see, my trust is completely gone....and I am likely partly responsible for some of the problems that brought my husband's rage up... But I've always believed that problems can be solved peacefully with negotiation instead of rage, pressure and force. Perhaps rage was his way to avoid problem solving in the first place... Anyway, long story and part of the past now...

I just would like to know how did such a similar situation evolve, I am somehow hopeful that time and self work will take us to a healthy and happy place, even if we don't ever get back together.

I'd love to hear from any other similar experiences and outcomes as well.

Thank you very much.

LM


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## Hunter2727 (Mar 13, 2012)

Hello LMatilda,
What a blast from the past. I received an email last night with a link bringing me back to this post that I had made. What an interesting journey. Thank you for the reminder.
Here are some answers to your questions and my thoughts around them. I hope that they are helpful to you. My sincere wish for your family is that you and your husband are able to do work as individuals to love one another and keep your commitment and family intact.

Did my wife and I get a divorce? Yes
Did we ever reconcile? No
Have I moved on and met other women? Yes

What was the situation really like back then?
When we split up I took all of the onus upon myself. And took 100% of the responsibility for our marriage breakdown. And I told her that if both people took 100% responsibility, like I did, then the situation would be resolved quickly and peacefully. You really cannot continue to fight when people stop blaming the other and each person is saying...this is all my fault. So, when I posted originally, I only told my side of the story...what I felt I had done wrong. A lot of what I said was what she said to me that I had done to do her. I had internalized it and worked through it. 

What really happened? Was I abusive?
Yes. I verbally abused my wife. I called her lazy, and other names that were derogatory. Marriage killers. My ex-wife started reading a book about Verbal Abuse by Patricia Evans. I am reader. So when I saw this, I read all books published by P. Evans. And then wanted to discuss with her. When she saw that I had read all the material and was ready to discuss...she immediately shut down.

Was my ex-wife a saint?
No. She truly was lazy and unmotivated in her life. And relied very heavily on me for our lives. Inappropriately. To the point where I had another child. She has to own this and live with this fact. What I don't tell people often is that she was both physically and verbally abusive to me. To this day though, I am sure she feels she was not. She "only" scratched and punched me because I "made" her so angry. And she never name-called, she only said really hurtful things to me because she was hurt by me in the first place. She never wanted to show affection because of where she was.

Where am I at now?
I have an amazing life. I have 3 incredible kids and we are so busy with life having fun and doing our thing. I actually host a mom’s group which people find funny (because I am a dude), but it was a necessity to access play dates for my kids. The mom’s control everything. ☺ I have lots of close mom friends now and they are so great to me and my kids. And it is platonic, I am friends with their husbands too.

Am I dating?
Yes. I have had a couple of relationships and have gone on many dates. However, in the last year, I often think that I will likely be alone until the kids are grown, because my relationship standards have become so real that I am unwilling to be with someone that not grown and significantly evolved. I have met many wonderful women. The fear of not meeting someone great should be dismissed. There are so many great people out there. Putting step families together, in my opinion, is way harder and requires far more skill to be a healthy situation than working out a marriage between two parents with biological children.

How do I feel now?
I tell people that divorce in my mind is selfish. Yes at times it is justified and they are many stories where people have divorced and met someone that is great and they live happily ever after. But, my personal observation is that the next relationship is just as hard. More work. And inevitably ends in a similar place. It is difficult to live with someone long term. And second marriages are statistically more likely to end in divorce than even your first. My friend who has been divorced three times infamously said to me “After your third divorce, you kinda have to think it is you”.

How do I counsel friends?
I tell all my friends...DON'T do it. It is such a HUGE price to pay. And that price is mostly bore by the children. Parents fighting through their divorce over stuff, financial suicide for the family, the long road to healing after the divorce and the awkward family gatherings like graduations where kids hope the parents can just focus on them and it not be weird. And now kids have to spread their time between potentially a plethora of houses at Christmas, instead of just two (inlaws and outlaws). The list of disadvantages to the kids is endless in my opinion. But people argue with me that parents who are fighting is not good for kids either. I just agree and tell them to get over themselves and stop fighting. That is all kids want. Parents that love them. A home that is safe, stable and conducive to launch them into life with a sense of discovery and adventure. Oh… and to have fun doing all that.

What have I learnt?
A new relationship will not fix you. You have to fix you. Always. And the first world problems you think you have are because of you. Not anyone else. And almost all of them are based on our own personal insecurities which is based on FEAR. 

What do I think we are all looking for?
One of my favorite movies is the Notebook. I think everyone is looking for just that. Someone who has your back. Forever. Who will always be there for you. Who will love you, endlessly, no matter what. A love that is unconditional. I think that what we do not understand is that love has nothing to do with how pretty, amazing or successful the other person is (things that we get from them -- attraction, pride, warm feelings, etc). It has nothing to do with what WE get from the other. It has everything to do with our personal choice to just love. Because that is the CHOICE we made. And our commitment is to never stop. I think everyone is looking to be loved like this.

What if there is abuse?
Separate. Create space. But tell your partner "I am not leaving you....I am doing this to get us healthy. No need to be fearful. I am here. No need to angry. We are going to get through this. No need to be irrational. I have your back, we are working through this as a team.

What is abuse?
In my opinion, abuse is when you try and change another person. Some people call names (I would call my wife lazy) in an attempt to modify the other person's behaviour. Some people pout and stop talking. There are all manners of abuse and the reality is that even a proverbial church mouse woman can be very abusive. And I would argue often are. But society does not often pick up or on them. Men who puff up and shout and scream and lord over others are easy to pick out. But in reality all they are doing is trying to use their size and fear to change the behaviour around them to their liking. Like trying to establish that they are the leader or that others are the followers. Or that discipline and rules do not apply to them. Their lack of relationship skills and low-brow sophistication makes them easy targets to pick on. But we all rage against the machine, just in our own way.

My epiphany
I am ashamed to admit this, but I did not respect my ex-wife. It was my lack of respect for her that ultimately led to all this carnage.

Conclusion / My advice…
For what is worth…Love the one you are with. Work it out. Spend all your energy on fixing yourself and growing to the moon and back. Don’t focus on your partner at all. Just love them unconditionally from the energy you receive by filling yourself up every day. I think your kids will thank you for it. And on your death bed, you will thank yourself for it too. 

It is a lot of work. And if you are not up to it...I have learnt most are not....Move on quickly and forgive quickly. Life is too short not to be full of love.

Someone wondered what my name is?
My name is Keith


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## Hunter2727 (Mar 13, 2012)

Thanks Boltam.

I just don't think that is the right formula. I don't believe anything should be automatically lethal to a relationship.

I think the right formula is the one I proposed. When there is anything destructive...like abuse..., we should take the necessary space (and boundaries) for everyone to get healthy. I am not suggesting that anyone be in any situation that is unsafe. In fact, I always suggest the opposite. Safety for everyone first, and then work things through.

Yes, some people never will get better. And some people will never heal. So, yes this will lead to divorce. And it does. A lot of things are not able to be worked through.

But for me...when I say to the next person...For better or for WORSE...I will really mean it. Just as I did last time. I am willing to walk through the difficult troubles of life, sometimes be hurt in the process, seek safety, grow to the moon and back and hopefully have many adventures along the way. I wish that this could have been with my ex-wife. Because no matter who I meet, no one will be as aligned with my primary life goal as she is. Our 3 kids. But that ship has sailed and my children and I are now far along in a new adventure. It is more work that was necessary, but such is life. It also has some significant upside too.

I hope that my journey encourages anyone who is questioning their next steps to stay, grow and evolve. I also hope that it confirms to those know that they are unsafe that they should leave. And for those that must...while divorce is hard (the suffering at times is almost unbearable) it does create many new opportunities. While I would not wish divorce on my worst enemy, it is by a land slide the most significant growth event of my life. I would not be where I am today without having walked the road I have walked. Suffering is truly the great teacher.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Hunter

You love yourself. You love your kids.
You sound like you love the one your with.

Who does your ExW love now?

How well do you get along now with each other and as coparents?

HM


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## Hunter2727 (Mar 13, 2012)

HM,

I am not sure who my ex loves now. But it is certainly not me. 

I have actually had to put up a wall between because of the stunts (they are shocking to say the least) she pulled during our divorce.

When I have the kids I just want to be left alone to raise them. I refuse to be engaged with any drama anymore. Which unfortunately means zero contact with my ex.

Hunter


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Hunter

Good to see you have grown.

Sad to hear she has not.

I do hope you realize no matter how much you wanted to keep your marriage and keep your family together it takes two for that to happen.

And when one of those two refuse to grow as an individual then you cannot possibly grow as a person.

Glad to hear you are n a better place today.

Thanks for responding.

HM


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

Wonderful to see you post an update Keith, and a good confirmation of my suspicions 3 years ago. Your wife indeed "lazied" her way out of a marriage by playing the "abuse" card and gaining sympathy from the typical feminist society that has most likely left her to her own devices at this point.

You made it out in one piece. That's great to read.

And the "stunts" she pulled during divorce, well, let's just say it's often a sign of serious self-doubt and self-resentment. A truly confident and content person does not pull stunts during divorce. In simple words; she fvcked up and she knows it.

Oh well! You will "upgrade" to a better mate when the time is right.


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