# Legitimate Extra Marital Romance/Sex?



## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

To avoid thread jacking, I started this thread to get opinions from other forum members regarding a subject that for some is a grey area while for others it is not.

I've noticed that while practically all of us abhor affairs and excoriate the unfaithful spouses who have them, we sometimes seem accommodating to an extra marital romantic/sexual relationship by a betrayed spouse separated from his/her unfaithful spouse.

Granted that an affair is based on lies, secrecy and deceit which makes it an abomination worthy of condemnation. We also make sarcastic comments when a cheating spouse says that he/she has been emotionally divorced for some time and that the marriage exists on paper only. At time we almost become religious like zealots in our views which we are not shy in expressing on this forum.

Yet when it comes to a betrayed spouse who is separated from his unfaithful spouse and involved in a romantic/sexual relationship with another person, we seem to do a 180 degree turn. The betrayed spouse in that relationship justifies him/herself saying that he/she is separated (though still legally married), is not lying, hiding, or deceiving his/her unfaithful spouse. And when pressed on why they can't wait until after they get divorced to start another relationship, they often come back with the unfaithful walkaway spouse's response that they have left the marriage and that they are married only on paper.:scratchhead:

My view is that if you are still legally married, you represent a very risky emotional/sexual investment for any person who would like get involved with you. Risky because if you still have strong and unresolved feelings for your unfaithful spouse, you are being disingenuous not only to the new person who wants to be your new companion/partner in life but to yourself as well. Not to mention the fact that rebound relationships have almost the same short life span that affair relationships have and often leave people more hurt than before they started the rebound relationship. And the legal ramifications regarding property and child support (Men: All States view a child not fathered by a husband, as a 'child of the marriage' which means YOU are legally responsible for the financial support of that child).

It is MY view that just like a cheater often cheats him/herself out of a fulfilling relationship by engaging in an affair, so does a betrayed spouse who starts an extra marital romantic/sexual relationship before he/she is divorced and has given him/herself time to grieve and recover from his/her failed marriage.

What are your thoughts on this issue?


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

> My view is that if you are still legally married, you represent a very risky emotional/sexual investment for any person who would like get involved with you. Risky because if you still have strong and unresolved feelings for your unfaithful spouse, you are being disingenuous not only to the new person who wants to be your new companion/partner in life but to yourself as well.


You can still be legally married and have resolution of your feelings for spouse. Sometimes people get there quicker, sometimes longer, sometimes the legal process just takes a long time, sometimes even though they remained faithful they may have been checked out already too, or atleast on the verge - even in cases where the infidelity devastated them.

For me, my marriage was bad for a couple years, I wanted to fix it but didn't know how, W wanted separation I was confused and devastated - that lasted a couple weeks before Dday, then I cried and grieved hard non-stop for about 3-4 weeks, I also had a surgery to recover from and my emotions seemed to fall in line with my physical healing. Early on I was looking for friendly dates to feel validated, gave that a rest for a few months then decided that why should I sit around and be lonely and without affection or companionship, knowing and accepting that I was NEVER going to take my W back, even as the process of getting separation was not my only big priority. Yes getting involved in new relationships can get a little messy, but that's how life is anyway, I remain honest and true to myself and those I choose to invite into my life.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

Lon, it is not my intention to act condescending or religiously moralistic towards people who have engaged in one but to share with you and others why, in my view, carrying out one is a risky proposition for all involved.


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## NotLikeYou (Aug 30, 2011)

morituri said:


> I've noticed that while practically all of us abhor affairs and excoriate the unfaithful spouses who have them, we sometimes seem accommodating to an extra marital romantic/sexual relationship by a betrayed spouse separated from his/her unfaithful spouse.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> ...


Morituri-

My totally un-scientific perception is that the advice generally given on TAM to a divorcing BS who is involved with someone else is "wait til you're divorced." I can't recall any specifics one way or another, but I just don't remember anyone condoning and encouraging a BS to begin a new relationship while they are still married. But you get around on these boards more than I do, so maybe I missed a few 

The conventional wisdom is that a couple can't recover from an affair while there is still contact between the APs. It seems like the situation you describe is similar- it would be very hard to build a new relationship while you're still entangled in the old one, even if you have emotionally checked out.

And yes, I agree with your opinion- a person going through a divorce has baggage no matter how you look at it, and the new person in their life is going to end up carrying some of that baggage!


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## Cherry (Sep 23, 2009)

I personally think that if a married couple is legally separated and there's no question that reconciliation won't happen, - insert reason - here, both spouses are free to move on in whatever direction they choose. 

I do have a scenario that I went through where I still feel that my H was cheating on me, he doesn't see it as full on cheating though because by law we were legally separated. In this case, I had many unresolved emotions and I didn't want separation and for me personally I chose to NOT move on in my life with anyone else. My H on the other hand was pretty convinced we were done and he had moved on. During this 5 month period we did not speak once (again by court order), so neither of us knew the others intentions, although we had both filed for divorce. I still say he cheated on me during this time, but I also know that's not a fair thing to say because technically it could be both, cheating or not.

In a nutshell, I feel if both parties have resolved to divorce and by law are legally separated, then it is not cheating.


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## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)

Mori said:


> not lying, hiding, or deceiving


That is the crux, the bar for me. THAT is the deepest of betrayal.

It was never about the cheating. Well obviously it was, but for me the damage... the real core sin was the deceit, the disrespect, the lies... thats where the EVIL is.... 

We are all human, we have needs, we get weak... Obviously, I don't condone cheating... But, I can understand it. The lies, the damage and pain caused by the lies... That's the bar. 

You take that out of it, the game changes to shades of grey for me.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

NotLikeYou my perception is also not based on science which requires information that is not anecdotal in nature. It is and should be subject to being challenged by those who have more information on the matter.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

morituri said:


> Lon, it is not my intention to act condescending or religiously moralistic towards people who have engaged in one but to share with you and others why, in my view, carrying out one is a risky proposition for all involved.


I know  you asked for thoughts and I replied!

I think it can be risky for many people too, especially if they really are looking to self-medicate, seek revenge, dilute their pain etc. At first I was looking to seek validation, it is probably a good thing that I am a lousy dater and that I have no skill at picking up women or else I may have used a lot of people. I took a very short break to collect myself, and soon felt like I was over most of my grief and decided that I wanted to start dating as a way to grow myself, get out of my comfort zone and start building some new social skills that I never really developed in my teens or 20's. I believe that some people, especially recovering niceguys who lack dating skills, will know when they are ready, like I firmly believe I was.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

Lon I can relate to the dating thing. I was one year from my divorce having been finalized when I started my first reluctant dates - I wasn't interested in a romantic/sexual relationship at the time. To my surprise, I enjoyed myself tremendously without the burden of sex or romance. It was a contributing factor in my healing.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

My thoughts... Reasons for separation don't change whether dating is a good idea or not. Two wrongs don't make a right and all that.

Second, separated is a legal status up here, just like married, divorced, or single.

Third, different areas have different laws regarding separations and divorces. Is someone who's divorced one week after the words are spoken truly in a better emotional state for their next relationship than someone who's been separated for 9 months but can't get a divorce yet legally? I doubt it.

In my opinion, all the parties involved are adults, and if they're being honest about their intentions, then it's ok to date/boink while separated. Not every relation, even when single or divorced, has to be with the intention of a long term relationship. In fact, if you look at most people's track records, I suspect you'll see many short to medium "failed" relationships that helped them form later relationship decisions. I think many people are too judgmental, and figure everyone should be doing things their way, even though they have no idea what state the people they're judging are in.

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

morituri said:


> I've noticed that while practically all of us abhor affairs and excoriate the unfaithful spouses who have them, we sometimes seem accommodating to an extra marital romantic/sexual relationship by a betrayed spouse separated from his/her unfaithful spouse.
> 
> Granted that an affair is based on lies, secrecy and deceit which makes it an abomination worthy of condemnation. We also make sarcastic comments when a cheating spouse says that he/she has been emotionally divorced for some time and that the marriage exists on paper only. At time we almost become religious like zealots in our views which we are not shy in expressing on this forum.


I`m not one of those people, I`m on the dark side.




> Yet when it comes to a betrayed spouse who is separated from his unfaithful spouse and involved in a romantic/sexual relationship with another person, we seem to do a 180 degree turn. The betrayed spouse in that relationship justifies him/herself saying that he/she is separated (though still legally married), is not lying, hiding, or deceiving his/her unfaithful spouse. And when pressed on why they can't wait until after they get divorced to start another relationship, they often come back with the unfaithful walkaway spouse's response that they have left the marriage and that they are married only on paper.:scratchhead:


I agree with them.
If my wife leaves me or I leave my wife, it`s over,
I don`t care what the state says as it has no bearing on my ethical system.



> My view is that if you are still legally married, you represent a very risky emotional/sexual investment for any person who would like get involved with you. Risky because if you still have strong and unresolved feelings for your unfaithful spouse, you are being disingenuous not only to the new person who wants to be your new companion/partner in life but to yourself as well. Not to mention the fact that rebound relationships have almost the same short life span that affair relationships have and often leave people more hurt than before they started the rebound relationship.


Honesty is never disingenuous.
There are many people who date for fun, for sex, for kicks, some do it for free beer.
As long as everyone`s an adult and the truth is on the table I don`t see a problem.



> It is MY view that just like a cheater often cheats him/herself out of a fulfilling relationship by engaging in an affair, so does a betrayed spouse who starts an extra marital romantic/sexual relationship before he/she is divorced and has given him/herself time to grieve and recover from his/her failed marriage.


I don`t know about you but if I`ve just been released from my marriage I`m not particularly looking for a "fulfilling relationship" right off the bat.
Then there`s the fact that everyone grieves differently.
I simply choose not to grieve any more than I have to and I know for a fact one of the few axioms that is true is that "Nothing gets you over a broken heart faster than a new lover."

If either my wife or I decides this marriage is done I`ll be dating within a very short span of time as I will have already wasted more than a decade, I`m not wasting anymore life "grieving" .


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

I never thought of this, really...so I guess you could say that I wouldn't consider it cheating.

I once got involved with a man whose wife had cheated and left (or was on her way out the door); at the same time, I was still sharing a house with a long time partner, but there was no chance of reconciling. Neither of us had any plans to reconcile, so we didn't consider it cheating at all. In fact, we openly dated, met each others friends, etc.

Wait for divorce? I guess technically one should, but in this case, the guy only legally divorced 4 years after I was with him. He had girlfriend after girlfriend. So was he cheating on his wife with all of us?

I, on the other hand, was not married. So does that mean I was allowed to do as I pleased?


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

The issue to a very large degree whenever dealing with betrayal, reconciliation or the dissolution of a marriage is that it can be very difficult not to project our own experience into the circumstances.

I have stated many times, to many others: "End the relationship you are in, prior to starting another one."

Can't ... and importantly, wouldn't, argue with those that would call my words and circumstances hypocritical.

But my mind is settled on that fact. My marriage is over. That relationship is ended. I'm not looking for a woman as a band-aid for a bruised ego or fear of being alone and unwanted.

However, for me personally ... I have no issue with either stance. 

All of the emotion, heart-ache, and drama has long since evaporated from my circumstances.

Ex and I still do things together with our kids. Last April, we went away for a week together with the kids. We interact ... frequently ... as parents.

My choice has been personal. I chose to try to save my marriage. I chose to move out. I chose to pursue divorce. I chose to take all of the steps to make it happen.

I'm asking her to make one choice. Call the mediator and schedule the court date. That's it. I made my position clear last October. My logic was simple ... if she knows what she wants ... and she loves her boyfriend, then she should be beating down the courts doors. That hasn't happened. Don't know why. Don't care. Not going to put my life on hold as a result.

But unless I find and fall head over heels in love with a physically fit, athletic, emotionally grounded, well balanced woman, with no more than two children under age 10, that has no drama with her ex ... and whom doesn't want more children (not that I'm picky or anything), then I really don't care what my legal status is. The marital bond ... vows or no, is broken. 

I'm not claiming any moral superiority over her ... or anyone for that matter.

Relationships are messy ... even good ones.

I've been honest with the women I've dated. No doubt, some wouldn't touch me with a 10 foot pole because I haven't put the last nail in the coffin of my marriage. And in terms of personal choices? I won't. Until I must.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

When I left my first husband I knew that was it. 2 1/2 years later we still weren't legally divorced and I met my current hubby and slept with him. I didn't have any moral quandaries about doing so. Ex and I both knew it was over and done with. The fact he had cheated multiple times had nothing to do with it. The only reason we weren't divorced was financial (I was on welfare). If I had had ANY thoughts of getting back with him, I wouldn't have slept with someone else.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

PBear said:


> In my opinion, all the parties involved are adults, and if they're being honest about their intentions, then it's ok to date/boink while separated.


The libertarian in me agrees.

But for me, a separation is still married and thus no sex for either partner. We are still married, and we took vows which included forsaking all others. Even if we were to openly tell the other person we were dating/screwing other people, it would be infidelity by _my_ definition.

If we were separated and she had any kind of romance or sex, it would be a complete deal breaker.

The risks of a rebound romance are real, and so it would seem unwise to me for someone to get involved with another person while separated, at least within say the first year.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

Thor said:


> The libertarian in me agrees.
> 
> But for me, a separation is still married and thus no sex for either partner. We are still married, and we took vows which included forsaking all others. Even if we were to openly tell the other person we were dating/screwing other people, it would be infidelity by _my_ definition.
> 
> ...


That's fine that it's infidelity by your definition. But...

By your definition, two people who are in serious long term relationships are not cheating if they boink like bunnies, simply because they haven't exchanged wedding vows. Correct? Hmmm... Not in my books

And according to your statements, the person who lives anywhere in Canada (for example) where we have a one year mandatory separation period should wait 2 years until starting a new relationship, whereas someone in California (with no required waiting period) would be good to go in one year. I personally think it's much more important to look at where the individual is at emotionally, rather than a chronological cut-off.

And as I said before... Not every relationship has to have a goal of a long term relationship, at least not in my books. Sometimes, you just want to have fun. That can mean sex, sure, but it can also mean someone to hang out with, someone to talk to, someone who cares how your day went. Does that mean they're your soul mate? Does that mean you shouldn't have a week long holiday fling? I don't think so.

Just debating, btw. It's not any skin off my nose what other people think. As an FYI and air-clearing, I started seeing someone shortly after separating from my wife; this weekend marked my one year separation anniversary. Yes, it was too early, to be perfectly honest. But we were in similar circumstances, and we were honest with each other about where we were at. From my STBXW's side, there has not been one word about reconciliing or even considering getting back together. 

C


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

PBear said:


> And as I said before... Not every relationship has to have a goal of a long term relationship, at least not in my books. Sometimes, you just want to have fun. That can mean sex, sure, but it can also mean someone to hang out with, someone to talk to, someone who cares how your day went. Does that mean they're your soul mate?


Boy, I hope not. If that's the case, I have an awful lot of soul mates ...


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

OneMan said:


> It's not a grey area. You're still married. Get a divorce if you want sex. Don't drag it on for years and then start seeing other people. That's just selfish.


In Canada you must wait a year before divorce can even be considered.

It could take years before you're no longer married.

I'm not understanding why one would want to keep a vow of celibacy to someone they want out of their lives.
Seems masochistic
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

OneMan said:


> It's not a grey area. You're still married. Get a divorce if you want sex. Don't drag it on for years and then start seeing other people. That's just selfish.


How is it selfish if both people have moved on and neither is interested in being married any more, and they're just waiting for the piece of paper? Or if one spouse is, for example, emotionally abusive or something and is dragging things out to torture the other?

I do not understand how today it's not OK but tomorrow it will be JUST because I have this piece of paper that says I'm divorced. That's the same as saying that until you are married you should not have sex. Some people believe that because of their religion or whatever and that's fine, but for them to tell me that I must not have sex with anyone I am not married to is ludicrous.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

OneMan said:


> So what? Sex is not a need and divorce is stressing.


Yes, actually it is a need. Speak for yourself.
Sex is the best de-stressor I know of so if I`m getting a divorce I`m making that remedy readily available.




> Only if you drag it.


Or they drag it.




> Well you've cheated before so I'm not surprised the above is narcissistic.


So holding a vow to someone who you`ve both agreed to release from said vow is narcissistic because I`ve cheated before?

Have you ever heard of the concept known as "A coherent argument"?

Don`t worry if you haven`t as it seems likely to be the case.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

PBear said:


> That's fine that it's infidelity by your definition. But...
> 
> By your definition, two people who are in serious long term relationships are not cheating if they boink like bunnies, simply because they haven't exchanged wedding vows. Correct? Hmmm... Not in my books
> 
> And according to your statements, the person who lives anywhere in Canada (for example) where we have a one year mandatory separation period should wait 2 years until starting a new relationship, whereas someone in California (with no required waiting period) would be good to go in one year. I personally think it's much more important to look at where the individual is at emotionally, rather than a chronological cut-off.


I agree that it is whatever is in your book as it were. For me, if I am married then any sex or dating with a 3rd party is cheating. Now I can see how some people may have a long separation required by law with no hope or desire for reconciliation, and then that would be their choice on the rules.

In my location the divorce cycle is 90 days, so the only purpose for a separation is as a last ditch effort to somehow rekindle the marriage. So for me and my wife I would not tolerate dating or sex outside of the marriage during a separation.

If someone wants to allow outside sex while trying to save their marriage, go for it. Wouldn't work for me. I could see some kind of authorized revenge affair or something similar in this category, but again it wouldn't work for me.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

OneMan said:


> I speak for all MATURE adults who control their urges and are actually faithful to marriage. Sex is not a need.


I don`t recall ever allowing you to decide what my needs are.
Sex is indeed one of them.



> I wasn't even speaking for you.


You were speaking to me however and I find it odd that you can`t seem to do so in a civil matter.
Considering I don`t believe I`ve ever had any interaction with you before I find your confrontational nature more informative than the content of your posts.



> Is that the excuse for cheating?


I`ve offered no excuse for cheating nor have I advocated cheating.
I stated that once my spouse and I decide our marriage is over and we decide to divorce I will pursue a romantic social life with new women.
The scenario I describe doesn`t fall under the definition of "cheating".
Your obviously twisted definition of "cheating" aside.



> Oh I'm not surprised you'd say that.


I didn`t expect you to be surprised.
The reason for my feeling this way is the fact that I seldom in my life have been plagued by heartbreak and depression in my life because I choose to live it rather than wallow in what it was.



> Exactly. Cheaters don't see vows, boundaries, and consequences important in their view.


You do seem to have a comprehension problem.
As well as a seeing the world in black and white problem.

Lets go over this again S..L..O.W..L..Y.

A vow is a promise you make to someone with the intent to fulfill some need/desire of that person.

My wife and I have made a vow to each other to be sexually and emotionally monogamous with each other.
(Here comes the part that seems difficult for you.)
If my wife and I were to agree to release each other from this vow then it no longer exists, the agreement is null and void in such a circumstance.
There is no longer any vow to hold if and when the person you`ve made the vow to releases you from it.



> You have no argument to speak of so there's no debate here.


Actually mine is the only discourse within this little discussion that could be construed as an "argument" at all.
I`m still unsure of what it is you think you`re doing.




> Ever heard of "Keeping the snake in the cage?"


Actually no, I haven`t but I thank you for educating me on that little bit of irrelevant esoterica.

Exactly why would I be inclined to remain celibate if I was not under a vow of celibacy?

(This is your chance to ..y'know ..form an actual "argument".Don`t blow it)

I`m an informed educated adult who enjoys the company of the opposite sex.
Why should I not indulge in this pleasure when doing so breaks no vows or harms anyone?


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

morituri said:


> ...Granted that an affair is based on lies, secrecy and deceit which makes it an abomination worthy of condemnation. We also make sarcastic comments when a cheating spouse says that he/she has been emotionally divorced for some time and that the marriage exists on paper only. At time we almost become religious like zealots in our views which we are not shy in expressing on this forum.
> 
> Yet when it comes to a betrayed spouse who is separated from his unfaithful spouse and involved in a romantic/sexual relationship with another person, we seem to do a 180 degree turn. The betrayed spouse in that relationship justifies him/herself saying that he/she is separated (though still legally married), is not lying, hiding, or deceiving his/her unfaithful spouse. And when pressed on why they can't wait until after they get divorced to start another relationship, they often come back with the unfaithful walkaway spouse's response that they have left the marriage and that they are married only on paper.:scratchhead:
> 
> ...


Bear in mind that your last sentence there is in the form of a question inviting me to share my personal opinion, Mori. :rofl: However, I can sum up my thoughts in two words: :iagree:

Doing my best to just put out there my particular thoughts and reasons, I'll say that I personally believe that the way a cheating spouse justifies their affair is very similar to the way a betrayed spouse justifies dating during separation. Some of the internal dialogue is the same (...like "I deserve better" or "My feelings for them are over" or "I haven't been happy for a long, long time--not it's time for ME to be happy"). Some of the ...oh...almost fogginess is very similar (...like "my dating doesn't hurt the kids" or "no one will be affected if I feel better about myself"). Some of the actions are the same. Some of the feelings are the same. It's really quite similar!

So my reasoning is that if I wouldn't "date" while I was happily married, then I would also not date while I was unhappily married or separated...because the "married" part didn't change, just the happiness or the location of my spouse's body relative to me. As someone who once was betrayed, I didn't like the idea of facing a couple years of celibacy while we navigated the pathway of divorce, but the truth of the matter is that I was not available to give myself until the divorce was final. My definition of a relationship is not "having someone else in my life to meet my needs" so giving myself to someone just to have my needs met isn't the way I approach it! My definition much moreso looks at a relationship from the other side of the coin "being in someone's life so I can meet their needs"...and I don't mean like a doormat! I mean like it is a mutual giving and receiving but on my side of the symbiosis is I am meeting THEIR needs. How can I do that if I can't GIVE myself? See?

Thus, to date someone exclusively during separation would have meant that I *ALSO* broke my promise to forsake all others for only my spouse. When I looked over my own values, I found that being the kind of person who kept my word was more important to me than sexual release or getting an ego boost because someone wanted me. Ironic, huh? 

In the end does this mean I judge those who go right out and date during separation? No. I just disagree  and will state "here are my reasons, now you're an adult--make your own choices and be personally responsible for those choices." In fact, I could even see a little "group dating" (if they still call it that) where you go to a certain event or thing with a group of people just to be around members of the opposite sex and whatnot, but not focusing on one and doing it moreso in an effort to GAL (get a life). Like someone pointed out, it's not like every relationship is heading toward commitment! BUT...I do wish that when people decide to date during separation, that they would recognize that *a lot of the thought process and they way they feel and why...is actually VERY, VERY close to the way an affair starts. Most affairs start with justifying crossing the line just a little tiny bit, and most affairs are started as hidden with lies--many start with a "friend" from school or a co-worker they just get along with pretty well.*


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## Kurosity (Dec 22, 2011)

Tacoma and One man need to go to their seperate conners!!! Just playing 


Legitimate?? No I think that there is no excuse even though I understand that D can be a long wait. I feel so even knowing that there are people out there that have been in a fighting mad D for years. I would never call any extra marital romance/ sex acceptableor excusable. But that is just my veiw


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

OneMan said:


> And I don't recall ever trying to dictate what your "needs" are.


Really?
Because you`re doing it again right here....



> You only think sex is one of them.


You may think denying your intent while you work towards that intent is slick and unseen but that would be comical.
You`re transparent.



> "Confrontational?" Hardly.


Again you deny your intent when it`s plain for any who read this thread to see.
You`ve hurled numerous ad hominems at me ever since you began posting in this thread.



> The scenario you describe is cheating, since the both of you are still married. Or do you just say you aren't in order to justify it.


Your definition of "cheating" is far different than the cultural norm where I`m from.
Cheating is an unethical way of achieving a goal.
What exactly is unethical about pursuing other women if my wife and I have both agreed we want to end our marriage in order to pursue a new life?
I am of course assuming she`s free to pursue any romantic liaison she wishes as well.

What is your definition of cheating?



> And being promiscuous is a way of life? Oh wow.


Again we seem to have a definitional disconnect.
I`ve not said a thing about promiscuity and it doesn`t seem you are using the word correctly.

Please point out where I claimed to wish to indulge in promiscuity.



> You seem to have a maturity problem.


Yes it`s apparent from this thread that I`m the one with the maturity problem.




> As well as seeing the world in grey problem.


The world and all within it are shades of grey.
This is learned once a certain level of experience and dare I say ..maturity, are reached 



> A cheater talking about marital vows.lol


I don`t break vows, I never have.
I don`t know what would give you the idea that I`ve ever broken a spoken vow.



> It no longer exists when you decide to break those vows, hence cheating.


To you the paperwork of divorce releases you from that vow.
To me the person I have made that vow to is the only one who can release me from that vow.

Did you make marital vows to the state or to your spouse?



> Now here's the hard part that you seem to avoid:
> 
> DIVORCE.


I`m not avoiding it in fact I`ve mentioned it constantly throughout our discourse.



> You mean until the judge puts down the hammer.


Not at all, what any judge says about my relationship with my wife has little if any influence over our relationship.




> This isn't a debate. You have no grounds for claiming marital faithfulness when you've shown you care about no vows. So I don't know what you think you're doing here.


Please point out where I`ve disrespected or broken or stated that I have no concern for my vows.
You can`t because I have done no such thing.



> Because nobody here is talking about celibacy.


Of course we are.
I`ve pointed out that it can take years for a documented legal divorce to finalize.
You are stating that I should spend those years sexless if I should divorce.
To do so would indeed constitute celibacy.
That`s what celibacy means, it means not having sex.
I offer that definition as you obviously have trouble defining your concerns.



> You're an informed adult who thinks having sex with others at your partner's expense is of no consequence.


Again, please show me where I`ve ever stated such a thing anywhere.

How is my pursuing an intimate relationship with a woman doing so at my partners expense when I have no partner because the person who was my partner has dissolved that relationship?

In other words how can I "cheat" on a partner I don`t have?


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## TeaLeaves4 (Feb 19, 2010)

OneMan said:


> It's not a grey area. You're still married. Get a divorce if you want sex. Don't drag it on for years and then start seeing other people. That's just selfish.


In my case, the exH dragged it out on purpose. No way was I honoring a bond that had been broken years before for someone who just wants to play games. We were living in separate houses, with separate lives for YEARS. So too bad, the state doesn't dictate whether or not I have a marriage. Legal BS is all it was after a certain point.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

I guess very few are concerned with the legal consequences of still being married to an emotionally and physically long gone spouse.

Would any of you like to be in the shoes of Terri Schiavo where your spouse, who has moved on to another relationship, gets to make decisions of life and death because hes/she is still your 'husband/wife'?

And to the men. Many States give a very limited amount of time, usually 2 years, for a husband to contest the paternity of a child born during the marriage. With that in mind, how would you feel if your estranged wife gets pregnant by another man, unbeknownst to you, puts your name as the father of the child on the birth certificate? In all States, a child born while married - though not fathered by the husband - is considered a child of the marriage. The courts have proven that they are willing to crucify men in the altar of 'for the best interests of the child' because of their wive's unfaithful behavior.

All this should be of concern to all since not all states or countries provide the option of a legal separation. You are either married or divorce.

It seems to me that some of you are too trusting of your former partners intentions to do you no legal harm. I hope it isn't misplaced.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

I'm sorry for the derail with Oneman
I just recalled what my mother taught me about arguing with a..well I'll just take her advice to heart from here in out.

As to morituris last post.

I see no legal consequences
Even if it is seen as infidelity by the courts infidelity is not illegal.

Any child not mine can be immediately disowned with a simple DNA test and I only hope my wife would be as loving and respectful to me as Shiavos husband was to her should I ever be in the state she was in.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

tacoma, there are many cases in which a man has been hit with a paternity suit years after the birth of a child and the courts have allowed the garnishing of his wages. By that time it becomes a very hard and expensive legal battle for the man to prove he's not the father and even if he was successful, the courts are more apt to follow the letter of the law as far as the time frame for contesting paternity. DNA vindication does not absolve you from this legal fact of life that many poor men have experienced through no fault of their own.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

OneMan said:


> Well then if people don't want to be committed then don't get married.
> :lol: Who said anything about the next day?
> Nobody said you can't have sex, and the fact that you're taking it to the extreme is the equivalent of a child acting out because they didn't get what they want. You're an adult, you know how to control yourself. There's a bunch of things to do besides pounding and grounding.


Allrighty then. :lol:


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

This will always be a controversial topic. I personally don't think it's wise to date before a divorce for many reasons, but to each their own.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

morituri said:


> tacoma, there are many cases in which a man has been hit with a paternity suit years after the birth of a child and the courts have allowed the garnishing of his wages. By that time it becomes a very hard and expensive legal battle for the man to prove he's not the father and even if he was successful, the courts are more apt to follow the letter of the law as far as the time frame for contesting paternity. DNA vindication does not absolve you from this legal fact of life that many poor men have experienced through no fault of their own.


This is really nothing that a good lawyer can't fix.

The civil suit I'd launch after it was fixed would be enjoyable.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

I don't see the risk/reward ratio - of being legally married to a physically and emotionally gone spouse - being worth it quite frankly.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

tacoma said:


> This is really nothing that a good lawyer can't fix.
> 
> The civil suit I'd launch after it was fixed would be enjoyable.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Actually, not true. Many states limit the time for contesting paternity. If not done so in a timely manner, a man can be on the hook no matter what, with no ability to contest it. This recently came up with respect to some single men who were not aware that they had been named the father until it was too late. I believe that occured in Florida.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Actually, not true. Many states limit the time for contesting paternity. If not done so in a timely manner, a man can be on the hook no matter what, with no ability to contest it. This recently came up with respect to some single men who were not aware that they had been named the father until it was too late. I believe that occured in Florida.


:iagree:

It seems that many here, especially men, are being naive in believing that this sort of thing doesn't happen. I'm quite sure they would be shocked if they did a little bit of research on the subject.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

morituri said:


> :iagree:
> 
> It seems that many here, especially men, are being naive in believing that this sort of thing doesn't happen. I'm quite sure they would be shocked if they did a little bit of research on the subject.


The one issue I see with not moving forward with the divorce is the complexity it can add to otherwise normal situations. A raise, a bonus or starting a new business may be complicated by a spouse deciding to complicate things. Paternity is another. Money can turn people into greedy jerks that will do things you did not think them capable of. Staying married gives them a hook to make a claim. Even if a person wins, the cost of doing so can be extremely high, and courts often do not award attorney's fees to the winner. 

That being said, I don't see a problem with dating while separated, provided that you truly don't want to get back together. I would likely wait until the very end, only because I know myself and would want time to get my act together before doing any dating.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

morituri said:


> And to the men. Many States give a very limited amount of time, usually 2 years, for a husband to contest the paternity of a child born during the marriage. With that in mind, how would you feel if your estranged wife gets pregnant by another man, unbeknownst to you, puts your name as the father of the child on the birth certificate? In all States, a child born while married - though not fathered by the husband - is considered a child of the marriage.


Thinking on it a bit I`m now wondering how this has any bearing on having sex while divorcing.

A woman could do this whether her STBX was sleeping around or not.

What difference does it make to the OP?

What am I missing?


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

Tall Average Guy said:


> The one issue I see with not moving forward with the divorce is the complexity it can add to otherwise normal situations. A raise, a bonus or starting a new business may be complicated by a spouse deciding to complicate things. Paternity is another. Money can turn people into greedy jerks that will do things you did not think them capable of. Staying married gives them a hook to make a claim. Even if a person wins, the cost of doing so can be extremely high, and courts often do not award attorney's fees to the winner.


Mike188 went through something like this and despite the financial cost, he still came out way ahead because he chose to fight his ex-wife tooth and nail rather than playing possum and praying that his ex-wife and her attorney showed mercy on him.

Besides, it's not one spouse's decision to divorce or not, the other spouse can choose to do so at any time of his/her liking. You gain nothing, and possibly end up worse, if you choose to procrastinate.


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## ishe? (Apr 1, 2011)

What if you weren't married? My partner and I were a couple for ten years and he cheated... Ok there were no marriage vows but our relationship was founded on the concept that we were exclusive. We had children together, bought a house together and lived as a married couple. He cheated, us not being married did not lessen the blow I infidelity for me.

But now we have been separated for over two months, he is still sleeping with his ap.

When am I allowed I date?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

ishe? said:


> What if you weren't married? My partner and I were a couple for ten years and he cheated... Ok there were no marriage vows but our relationship was founded on the concept that we were exclusive. We had children together, bought a house together and lived as a married couple. He cheated, us not being married did not lessen the blow I infidelity for me.
> 
> But now we have been separated for over two months, he is still sleeping with his ap.
> 
> ...


In my opinion, as soon as you feel emotionally ready. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

ishe?, emotionally speaking, the same thing would apply in your situation although the legal consequences would be a moot point because you weren't married.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

tacoma said:


> Thinking on it a bit I`m now wondering how this has any bearing on having sex while divorcing.
> 
> A woman could do this whether her STBX was sleeping around or not.
> 
> ...


The only difference I can see is that if caught soon enough, it makes it easier to fight if you are not married. When married, there is often a presumption attached, such as that the husband is the father. Divorcing deals with that.

That does not really go to the original post with respect to dating prior to divorce. It goes more to the idea of not procrastinating and getting the divorce finalized.


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## MickeyD (Feb 19, 2012)

OneMan said:


> It's not a grey area. You're still married. Get a divorce if you want sex. Don't drag it on for years and then start seeing other people. That's just selfish.


I disagree. Sometimes there is a grey area in which other considerations must take presedence.

I have been miserable in my marriage for many years now. My basic emotional and physical needs hasn't been met for a long time. I would like to end our marriage on good terms without ruin my wife in the process. She is currently unemployed and would be able to support herself and pay for the house. Our child suffers from a serious mental disorder that causes depression and sucidal thoughts. I'm currently living somewhere else due to my work (we are still together relationshipwise).

I have the following options:

1. File for divorce immediately. Start dating other women and be happy. That option would leave my wife up the creek without a paddle both financially and emotionally. Our child might blame herself for the breakup and have another suicidal episode.

2. Put up with the shortcomings of my marriage and give up on ever having my emotional and physical needs met for at least another 10+ years or so if ever.

3. Start an Extra Martial Romance/Sex in secret while still married. Continue to support wife financially until she is able to get a job and can support herself. Keep child's mental health stable without the trauma of having her parents divorcing. File for divorce once wife can support herself and child's condition is stable.

4. Live separate but stay celibate for X amount of years until wife can support herself and child's mental health is stable. Then file for divorce. Even more years of have basic emotional and physical needs not met.

Which option do you think is best? :scratchhead:


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

Tall Average Guy said:


> That does not really go to the original post with respect to dating prior to divorce. It goes more to the idea of not procrastinating and getting the divorce finalized.


:iagree:


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## desert-rose (Aug 16, 2011)

MickeyD said:


> I have been miserable in my marriage for many years now.
> 
> Which option do you think is best? :scratchhead:


You have another option that doesn't simply justify divorce; your logic is not fully examined here, so look carefully at your straw-man argument.

You can divorce your wife and still pay for some of her expenses because you care (alimony?) and child support for your child. You can be honest with your wife so that there's a chance you guys might be able to end things amicably; treating her with dignity is a better way to ensure that than lying. And, you can be honest with your child about why this is happening so that she doesn't blame herself, making sure to schedule lots of time with your child even after the divorce and lots of counseling for her so that she doesn't become more suicidal.

Honesty will make you a better man; lying will not make you noble, no matter how you spin it. Don't be afraid to tell the truth; it won't make you a bad guy...but cheating will.


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## NatashaYurino (Jan 2, 2012)

morituri said:


> It is MY view that just like a cheater often cheats him/herself out of a fulfilling relationship by engaging in an affair, so does a betrayed spouse who starts an extra marital romantic/sexual relationship before he/she is divorced and has given him/herself time to grieve and recover from his/her failed marriage.


I could not agree more. I also believe the betrayed spouse should grieve and then recover from the trauma (which is still too fresh) in order to be able to fully give and dedicate themselves to a new partner.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

Trust issues need to be resolved first before moving forward in to a new relationship. There were two stories recently were this was not done and it caused huge friction in those marriages that the cheating almost became a self fulfilling prophecy.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Semantics aside, and I'm going to make the leap that we agree ...

Legal marital status has no bearing upon whether or not an individual whose long term relationship (married or otherwise) that has dissolved; is emotionally prepared to date.

Having a hard time with the argument that a new partner is being put at emotional risk if you aren't divorced.

Divorced or no, if an individual thrusts themselves into a relationship prior to being ready to do so ... the relationship is at risk.

Whether or not you believe your legal status dictates or requires particular moral behavior is another matter.


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## SunnyT (Jun 22, 2011)

When my ex walked out.... to me that was the same as divorce, mentally anyway. He was in no hurry to get a divorce, it does take time, effort, and maybe a peek at your motives. I couldn't afford to file at the time, I just considered us DONE. Period. 

We remained separated with little contact (in spite of having 5 teens) for the next 4 years....til I could afford a divorce. By then I was happily living with current H, and planning to marry. 

The act of removing himself from my home, my life and our relationship was enough of a "divorce" for me.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

I remembered reading this back when it came out. Not saying it's right, wrong, better, or worse, but like lots of things in life, it just is ...

The Un-Divorced


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

Deejo said:


> I remembered reading this back when it came out. Not saying it's right, wrong, better, or worse, but like lots of things in life, it just is ...
> 
> The Un-Divorced


I read that awhile ago as well and found it very interesting.

I think those people are opening themselves up for some of the legal abuse ramifications discussed earlier in this thread.

I will repeat that I won`t wait until my divorce is final before dating but I want to be clear I`d definitely make that divorce as speedy a process as I could manage.


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## notreadytoquit (Jan 11, 2010)

My divorce from my ex cheating H became official in Sep 2010. When I found out about the affair and later through the divorce I had no intetion of involving myself in a new relationship. I simply was not ready. But even if I were I would skip the currently separated men. 

Right now I am probably still not 100% ready to start dating but I did join a dating site just to check things out(have not gone on any dates yet). When I get my matches in my account I simply skip the ones that state they are only separated(in Canada it takes longer to actually get divorced). And the reasons why I do that are:

1. They are still technically married so to me that is cheating whether their stbx spouse knows or not about it. Somehow I find it that all of a sudden I start to resemble the OW that also participated in the demise of my own marriage. Divorce can also be stopped while separated so why involve myself knowingly in a situation like that?

2. That person(the currently separated) is probably not ready to begin a new relationship. No matter how bad their marriage was I think everyone should have something like a waiting period to make sure they are all OK upstairs. I neither want to go for a rebound relationship nor be someone else's rebound relationship, if I can avoid it.


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## MickeyD (Feb 19, 2012)

desert-rose said:


> And, you can be honest with your child about why this is happening so that she doesn't blame herself, making sure to schedule lots of time with your child even after the divorce and lots of counseling for her so that she doesn't become more suicidal.


I'm sorry but that's not an option. The child has early-onset Bipolar Disorder, Type I, and her brain doesn't compute like "normal children". She's not in control of her moods and the condition is worsen by stress. Trying to reason with her when she gets into a negative mood is an exercise in futility. This is what lead to her last suicide attempt.

1. Daughter happy.
2. Parents watching TV in the living room.
3. Daughter says she wants to change the channel.
4. Parents tells her that they are watching the TV and that she will have to watch TV in her bedroom instead.
4. Daughter gets angry and start screaming that parents hates her and that she never gets to decide what to watch.
5. Mom tells her to use her cooping skills.
6. Daughter continues arguing.
7. Mom explains the rules and tells daughter to go to her room to cool down.
8. Daughter refuses to comply and continues arguing.
9. Dad lifts her up and start carrying her too her room for cool down.
10. Daughter kicks, hits, bites dad.
11. Dad puts daughter on her bed and tries to exit room.
12. Daughter rushes to door and put fingers between door before dad is able to close.
13. Repeat process three times: dad puts daughter on bed, tries to quickly exit room and close door, daughter runs to door and grabs door to prevent closure.
14. Mom takes over.
15. Mom tries to reason with daughter and calm her down.
16. Daughter hits mom in face.
17. Daughter panics after realize she hurt mom.
18. Daughter rushes to bedroom window and starts open up window.
19. Daughter tries to throw herself out of the second story bedroom window.
20. Parents both restrains daughter.
21. Daughter expresses desire to die.
22. Daughter hospitalized for two weeks.

I'm sorry but I am not taking any chances being honest with her about wanting to divorce her mom. Not at this time in her life. It isn't going to happen. Not an option. Period.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

Please don't take this the wrong way MickeyD but it sounds like your daughter needs more than what you and your wife can provide for her. Your daughter's dependence on you is risky because if something were to happen to you and/or your wife, then all your efforts to prevent her from killing herself are just postponements of the inevitable. I wish you and your daughter the best of luck.


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## MickeyD (Feb 19, 2012)

morituri said:


> Please don't take this the wrong way MickeyD but it sounds like your daughter needs more than what you and your wife can provide for her. Your daughter's dependence on you is risky because if something were to happen to you and/or your wife, then all your efforts to prevent her from killing herself are just postponements of the inevitable. I wish you and your daughter the best of luck.


Well, she yesterday she was admitted back to the childrens' mental health clinic. Both her psychiatrist and her social worker agreed that she was in a high state of mania, that the medication was not working, and that there was a clear and present danger for self-harm. She got so agitated about going back to the clinic that she had to be subdued and escorted in an ambulance by a security guard. Once at the clinic she was put in a padded cell until she had calmed down. 



desert-rose said:


> And, you can be honest with your child about why this is happening so that she doesn't blame herself, making sure to schedule lots of time with your child even after the divorce and lots of counseling for her so that she doesn't become more suicidal.


At the moment that suggestion feel almost laughable.


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## chaos (Mar 9, 2012)

I never liked the idea of dating while I was technically married to my then wife. The reason is that I would question what kind of woman would run the risk of becoming involved with a man who had the potential of reconciling with his wife at any moment? A needy woman is one that comes to mind.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

If your separated, marriage is over pending divorce & your honest during your interaction with any romantic interest.. Have at it, enjoy your new life.

No sense living in a self imposed limbo
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

chaos said:


> I never liked the idea of dating while I was technically married to my then wife. The reason is that I would question what kind of woman would run the risk of becoming involved with a man who had the potential of reconciling with his wife at any moment? A needy woman is one that comes to mind.


:iagree:

That was also one of my nagging questions while I was waiting for my divorce to become finalized - like a pesky mosquito buzzing close to my ear at night. It felt almost like that old Groucho Marx quotation "I don't want to belong to any club that will accept me as a member".


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