# Wife having an emotional affair. How to handle it?



## land2634

First, I'd like to offer a little bit of backstory.

My wife and myself have been married for just over two years. About a year ago, she began complaining of pain all over her body. Fast forward to this February, she was diagnosed with rheumatoid arthritis. She's only 23 years old.

She fell into a state of depression for a long while and we grew distant. I was there for her the best way I knew how, but since we didn't communicate very well throughout the process, we failed at meeting the emotional needs of one another during a tough time.

In April, she began talking to a guy she works with, whom I actually know. They had worked together for three years but never really spoken much to one another. When she began to have insomnia in relation to the medication for her arthritis, she began devoting her late-night time to talking to him on Facebook chats.

Initially, it didn't bother me because the common belief was that the guy, whom I will refer to as Jim, was gay. As days passed, she began to spend more and more time online talking to him, and instead of doing it right next to me, she would sit in the recliner in the corner of the room as if to hide the chat.

Then came the point where she began to hang out with him more frequently. At first, other girlfriends from her workplace were present. As time drifted into late April, I began to suspect she was hanging out with him alone.

My suspicion began to take a life of its own when she "went out with the girls" to say farewell to another female co-worker who was moving the next day. I found out, however, that plenty of guys were around, including Jim, when a mutual friend posted pictures on Facebook.

As the month of May rolled around, she began to grow more and more distant. Still talking to him online, she began to lie to me in order to be around him. First, she began to use the "going out with the girls" excuse, and while one girl from work was present, he was there as well.

She began to claim she wasn't taking lunch breaks, yet I found out otherwise when I went to her workplace to get money from her for lunch and she was walking in with Jim with food in hand. I confronted her about lying to me.

She assured me Jim is "just a friend," which I know is never a good sign. As my suspicions grew, I began to log her Facebook chats without her knowledge.

She has continually assured me that she feels our marriage is getting back on track, slowly but surely, yet she told him in their chats that she was pretending everything is ok to make me happy.

Fast-forward to last night, she was again up late. I got up at one point to grab some water, and she acted very jumpy, making me suspicious. I just got home from work an hour ago (she is at work right now) and checked the Facebook log. Indeed, Jim and my wife confessed immense feelings for each other, of which Jim said they could never act upon.

She confessed to him that she compares me to him all the time, and can't stop thinking about him.

This hurts!

I don't know what to do... on one hand, I feel like I should say something and ask her to cease all non-work related contact with him, but on the other, I feel as if she has to come to this realization on her own. The fact that she hasn't left me tells me that she doesn't want to throw away our commitment to one another in one day.

Based on their conversations, I have deduced that nothing physical has happened, although it doesn't make the pain any less hurtful. I don't know what to do.


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## JBMB0922

Ive been through this before. Ive made all of the mistakes that you should know about so you dont make them.

First of all, do not kick her out of the house.
2nd, do not get angry in front of her.
3rd, find out what is missing in your relationship. There is obviously an emotional need that she needs that is not being met.
Look at your relationship with her... are you too controlling? If you don't give the cows enough of a pastor to graze in they will stick their head through the fence to eat the grass on the other side.

Whats nice about this situation is you have all of the cards in your deck. DO NOT LET HER FLIP THAT ON YOU.

You need to ask yourself if this is something you want to work on. Do you want to stay with a cheater? You have a moral dilemma.

You're going to have to make up your own mind on that and do NOT allow yourself to have your thoughts swayed one way or another by anyone else other than you.

Finally, sit her down and confront her about it. Remember, she doesnt know that you already know the answers to the questions you will ask. Use that wisely. Maybe it would be a great time to see how far she will take it to lie to you. Once you've seen enough, tell her what you know. 

You don't have to tell her how you know that information.

Ask her if she loves you. She might, but she doesnt respect you at all. You have now lost trust in the relationship. Shes living in some type of a fantasy world.

Theres a lot of routes you can take this but one thing that must happen is she has to completely stop talking or seeing this guy. If that means she has to change jobs than thats what needs to be done.

If that means you have to move than so be it. Her love bank will never close and now that there are feelings involved... its going to be a tough road ahead, for the both of you.

Marriage counseling is a must here. Go seperatly at first and then eventually start having sessions together.

Also, both of you need to read the book "His needs Her needs".

What else.... Oh, do not confess your love for her at this time. Start making her chase you a bit. if you do that, you're basically telling her "It's ok babey... do that crap whenever you want."

You also will want to snap her out of that fantasy world she is in by telling a couple of your friends, and maybe her parents/siblings about what she is doing. Once its out in the open, its no longer a fantasy. Shell be pissed for awhile but take it with a grain of salt.

Also, talk to this guy the next time you see him and dont threaten him but tell him of how much of a strain this relationship with your wife is putting your marriage under. If he's decent at all he will stay away from her. Obviously, hes not since he willingly putting a marriage on the rocks with the help of your wife.

Those are my random thoughts. Good Luck.


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## land2634

Just wanted to post an update.

After posting this on Monday evening, my wife found out I knew about her emotional affair. She apologized a lot and cried a lot (I'm sure to be expected since she got caught). She claimed, "I have never and would never cheat on your, although I guess emotionally, I did."

So, my hope was that after talking, she would realize she absolutely has to cut ties with this co-worker on anything not related to work. I made this clear to her. I told her that while it's ultimately her choice, we can't move forward if he is still in the picture, even just "as a friend." I explained that the emotions involved would continue to put a wedge between us until space is given in order to heal.

Since Monday, she has really made it a point to spend time with me. She's spent less time on her computer and texting on her phone. She's also talked very positively about how, while she thinks it will take some time, we will come through a stronger couple.

We've talked about what was lacking in our marriage that caused her to feel emotionally connected to this other guy, and the usual suspects were talked about. Communication issues were probably the biggest thing, and she says that previously, I didn't show her enough affection. My response was that I will work on consciously showing her more affection.

This all sounds great, right? Well, it is, except for the fact that I checked the cell phone call logs online this morning. She spent 3 hours on the phone with Jim. She never mentioned this to me, and after our talks, I would have hoped she would no longer be hiding things from me.

I'm not sure what to do at this point. She's claiming she wants to fix it, and she continues to tell me how sorry she is that she hurt me, yet she doesn't really seem to be willing to do all that is necessary, in this case cutting off contact with Jim completely.

What is my next course of action? I intend to ask her about the phone call when she gets home from work this evening, but I have a feeling she will feed me an answer that basically says they were talking about all that had happened, etc, etc.

Should I approach Jim and ask him to cease contact with my wife? I feel like I need to be fighting for her in any way possible. I'm just not sure what I need to do next.


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## land2634

JBMB0922 said:


> Ive been through this before. Ive made all of the mistakes that you should know about so you dont make them.
> 
> First of all, do not kick her out of the house.
> 2nd, do not get angry in front of her.
> 3rd, find out what is missing in your relationship. There is obviously an emotional need that she needs that is not being met.
> Look at your relationship with her... are you too controlling? If you don't give the cows enough of a pastor to graze in they will stick their head through the fence to eat the grass on the other side.
> 
> Whats nice about this situation is you have all of the cards in your deck. DO NOT LET HER FLIP THAT ON YOU.
> 
> You need to ask yourself if this is something you want to work on. Do you want to stay with a cheater? You have a moral dilemma.
> 
> You're going to have to make up your own mind on that and do NOT allow yourself to have your thoughts swayed one way or another by anyone else other than you.
> 
> Finally, sit her down and confront her about it. Remember, she doesnt know that you already know the answers to the questions you will ask. Use that wisely. Maybe it would be a great time to see how far she will take it to lie to you. Once you've seen enough, tell her what you know.
> 
> You don't have to tell her how you know that information.
> 
> Ask her if she loves you. She might, but she doesnt respect you at all. You have now lost trust in the relationship. Shes living in some type of a fantasy world.
> 
> Theres a lot of routes you can take this but one thing that must happen is she has to completely stop talking or seeing this guy. If that means she has to change jobs than thats what needs to be done.
> 
> If that means you have to move than so be it. Her love bank will never close and now that there are feelings involved... its going to be a tough road ahead, for the both of you.
> 
> Marriage counseling is a must here. Go seperatly at first and then eventually start having sessions together.
> 
> Also, both of you need to read the book "His needs Her needs".
> 
> What else.... Oh, do not confess your love for her at this time. Start making her chase you a bit. if you do that, you're basically telling her "It's ok babey... do that crap whenever you want."
> 
> You also will want to snap her out of that fantasy world she is in by telling a couple of your friends, and maybe her parents/siblings about what she is doing. Once its out in the open, its no longer a fantasy. Shell be pissed for awhile but take it with a grain of salt.
> 
> Also, talk to this guy the next time you see him and dont threaten him but tell him of how much of a strain this relationship with your wife is putting your marriage under. If he's decent at all he will stay away from her. Obviously, hes not since he willingly putting a marriage on the rocks with the help of your wife.
> 
> Those are my random thoughts. Good Luck.


Thanks JBMB0922.

I have made it a point to not be angry in front of her. I couldn't bring myself to kick her out of the house. Being a person that would likely ride this marriage until the bitter end, I definitely want to see it fixed. No one can convince me otherwise, and my attitude is that I want it fixed or I'll die trying. Seems harsh I know, but it's how I feel.

I brought up the idea of counseling to her, she seemed to shrug it off. I'm not sure how to get through to her that it's something we NEED to do.


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## land2634

Wanted to update on the situation again this morning.

Last night, I purchased the book "His Needs, Her Needs" and we started reading it together. Once it got to the middle part of the first chapter talking about how affairs start emotionally, my wife went into shutdown mode. She said she was done reading and wouldn't talk about it.

Again, otherwise, she's been acting very good toward me, whereas before the EA was exposed, she basically pushed me away. 

I'm just not sure what to think or do. Since she won't talk about it, I'm not sure whether she intends to cut off contact completely with Jim or not, or if this has already happened.


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## iamnottheonlyone

Land,
Don't ask her to leave. That is a real dead end. That was my biggest mistake with my wife. You now possess some very valuable knowledge. I expect she shut down because she recogized herself in the book. I never told my wife as she would never hear it or believe it. She is in her fantasy.
Now you know she just won't walk away. And when you talk to Jim and he agrees not to contact her, it will likely still continue. They work together. It is forbidden fruit! You have done many things right so far. JBM gave you good advise. Read, read, read. Don't grovel, beg, or plead. Don't manipulate, convince or coerce. 
When you talk to Jim she will be angry. If he stays away from her, she will be even angrier. Go to Marriage Builders and view posts form today by Affair. Plan A. Be strong and confident. She is "in love". Understand that. They all get this way. Start marriage counselling now. I mean today. Contact a pro-marriage counsellor. There is no quick fix. Her feet are in quiksand. This is going to take awhile. Best guess is a couple of months. Worse case is 6 months to a year given your early intervention. You are going to hear some nasty things. Disregard them. Plan what you are going to say. She IS going to manipulate you. Be ready. Do not ask her to leave no matter what she says!! You love her!


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## land2634

Thanks!

I know for sure I've been able to get her to quit spending time online and instead spend it with me or at least around me. Previously, she had been wrapped up in her own world and had stopped doing anything around the house. While I like to do my fair share of housework, it really became difficult to keep up when she stopped helping and my emotions were running dry at the same time.

In the past few days, she's started doing housework again. She's been going to bed and staying there. One night before she knew that I had knowledge of what was going on, she got up at 4AM to take a fake shower (turned the water on but never got in) and took her phone into the bathroom with her. I assume she was texting him. That type of behavior has stopped.

At this point, in the last few days, the only thing that has really jumped out is the 3 hour phone conversation she had with him on Wednesday (it is now Friday). I keep waiting on her to bring it up, but she hasn't. I'll be watching to see if it happens again, at which point I will ask her if she's talked to him, and when she says no, I'll just hand her the phone logs and tell her that when she's ready to talk, I'll be (insert whatever I'm going to go do here).

On one hand, I feel bad that I continue to monitor her so closely, but on the other hand, I feel as if I must absolutely do this to make sure that she knows that if she wants to continue to contact Jim, she does so with full knowledge that I will know exactly what is going on.

I haven't contacted Jim yet, I've been waiting to see if she will take care of that on her own. I'm not convinced it will happen, but I will at least give her that chance.


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## turnera

Go to marriagebuilders and find an example of a No Contact letter. Print it out and hand it to her. Tell her that you need her to write one of these, and that YOU are going to read it to make sure it's not a love letter, but rather a letter telling him she chooses her marriage over him. YOU send it to him.

At the same time, tell her that you will not stop improving yourself and the marriage, that you know now how to keep it healthy and keep her love alive. Promise her that you won't grow complacent, you have learned your mistakes, and you'll always be there for her.

Ask her to fill out the Love Buster questionnaire from MB; it will tell you what you do that she doesn't like; work on eliminating those LBs. It will help.

Above all, do NOT MOVE OUT! No matter what.

btw, you DO need to monitor. She is like a drug addict right now, and if you monitor and save her from herself, she will thank you later, once the fog has lifted and the OM is out of the picture, and your marriage is improved. But for now, you have to keep her away from her drug. For her own good.


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## land2634

She says she feels as if I'm just trying to make her feel better now, and that everything will go back to how it was once I feel "comfortable" again. I've tried assuring her this is not the case. I guess the only thing I can do is let my actions show otherwise...


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## iamnottheonlyone

How are you going to stop yourself from being complacent. You pay the mortgage every month because you know how serious the consequences will be if you are not on time. But they send you a bill every month to remind you. Maybe you need to write out a schedule and put it in your organizer. List the things you need to do everyday or once week.. Make it a check off list. Schedule a refresher seminar. I have to do hours of continuing education for my job each year. Isn't your marriage that important.


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## land2634

Good point. I really intend to stay on top of things. I also, somehow, need to get her to understand that she has to communicate with me when she feels something is lacking.

I will be having her fill out the Love Busters questionnaire this evening. Hopefully we'll both understand one another just a little better.


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## turnera

land2634 said:


> I also, somehow, need to get her to understand that she has to communicate with me when she feels something is lacking.


I just want to point out that this, while you may not mean it, sounds a bit like control.

You can't GET her to do anything. You can offer your perspective. You can tell her what YOU wish for. But you have to be able to step back and let her make her own choices. The questionnaires are used to get YOU to change YOURSELF so that you are the most attractive option for her.


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## land2634

Sure, understandable.

I guess really all I meant by the statement is this:

An example of something small is that we both seem to have differing opinions on exactly at what point laundry needs to be done. I tend to get it done sooner than she will because she waits until she has enough to do full loads instead of partial loads. Apparently, this had upset her in the past. While small, things like this built up over time and I had no idea. It seems to me that if she had brought it up to me, maybe it doesn't build up and we can solve problems more efficiently, as opposed to waiting until the sum of all problems creates one large problem.

I could be wrong. I realize communication doesn't fix everything, so it's more than that, but I do feel that many times, a good amount of hurt can be avoided with communication.


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## turnera

Communication - and I agree, it is the #1 key to your relationship - can be a VERY tricky thing. There is SO much involved in a relationship, and communication becomes part of the dynamics. If her mother criticized her, or if a friend stopped being friends with her, or if she got in trouble at work...because of her communicating something, all of this goes into her data bank of memories. Or if you, yourself, made belittling remarks to her for this or that, or interrupted her when she tried to talk, or accused her of an agenda, or whatever...ALL of these things - this baggage - goes into her thought process before she opens her mouth.

My mother was the 'oh, you're going to wear that?' kind of mom. My DH has interrupted nearly everything I've ever said to him, because what HE thinks is apparently more important than what I'm thinking. My brother has almost never said a thing to me that wasn't a putdown. All of which combined to make me a person fiercely determined to take care of myself and never give opinions (except here, lol) or ask for help. I don't trust anyone.

And because I'm so overly sensitive, when my DH HAS said something about our relationship, I've made him feel bad, so now he never says anything about it and just goes along with whatever I say. 

None of this works, right?

But it's all fixable, with communication. But the person has to feel SAFE before they can cross that bridge. 

Instead of working on communicating about marriage problems, work on communicating about communicating. Your job, right now, is to find out WHY she didn't communicate. Not to get her TO communicate. If that makes any sense, lol.


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## turnera

The questionnaires will help a lot with that.

Another thing that is often recommended is that you two set aside one hour each week, where you just sit down and look at that status of your marriage. It's a safe hour where you promise to not get defensive, not hurt the other person, but just listen. Talk if you can. But above all, listen. Then maybe go away and think on it, until your next meeting.


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## land2634

Thanks for the insight.

It makes sense. Her mother has always been someone that interrupts people a lot when they talk, and I'm sure that's partially attributable to why my wife holds things in.

I've normally considered myself a pretty good listener, but at the same time, if she doesn't feel like I'm doing the right kind of listening, I guess it's all fruitless. I need to make sure, on my end, that I'm showing her that no matter what, I support her, and even though we not always agree, I will still hear her out and respect whatever she has to say.


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## land2634

I'm not really sure why (well I guess I am), but I'm feeling a lot of anxiety lately, especially today.

I'm trying to focus on other things besides just my wife, but I find myself having fairly frequent panic attacks.

Has anyone else experienced significant appetite problems during this period of time after discovering an affair? I've lost 17 pounds since June 1, and I find it hard to eat much when I can sit down and eat.


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## iamnottheonlyone

We all do. I lost about 10. It is to be expected. After 7 weeks I have just started to get my appetite back. My anxiety is lessening. But I have up and down days. Why do we have such problems. For those who find out about an affair and just move on recovery probably comes quickly. The marriage died. Thay buried it. Morned and went on. For those of us who have not given up not only did the mariage die, but now we are spending tremendous effort to bring it back to life. This is so much more difficult and painful.


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## land2634

iamnottheonlyone said:


> This is so much more difficult and painful.


Yet hopefully so much more satisfying in the end. I still hold out hope... she is helping out her friend with some wedding stuff right now (the wedding is this upcoming weekend), but she told me she wanted to have some "alone time" when she got home. I'm not entirely sure what she meant by it (you have to understand my wife as to why I don't know what she meant), but it definitely sounded good and sincere. We'll see. I've been trying not to look desperate and I've been trying to just show her my best side.


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## land2634

Turns out she was sweet-talking me so she could make herself feel better about lying. She still isn't at home. She made it to her friend's... an hour after she left. I checked the phone log and see that she spend a good 45 minutes on the phone with Jim before heading to her friend's.

It's going to be a long night...


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## Affaircare

I'll be here about 9:30am PT/noon:30 ET to check on you two. Just so you know, having "no contact" is not something that can happen gradually. This article might explain it well: http://affaircare.com/Articles/NoContact.htm The very best way is to end it, entirely and forever. The problem is that she has to want the "no contact" so badly that SHE chooses to do it. You can not make her or force her to actually do "no contact--she has to choose it and then police herself, otherwise this sort of thing will just happen over and over. 

So there are two things you can do. You can write "Jim" a letter that calmly but factually states, "Hello. I am "Wife's" husband. We have been married XX years and I love her very much. I understand you may have feelings for my wife, but you should know know that I made a commitment to devote all of my affection and loyalty to my wife and I intend to honor that vow in every way I can. I would like to ask you to stop seeing "Wife" as she is a very married woman, so we can work on our marriage. Thank you." I mean--just tell the guy straight out! Plus ask him to leave her alone! He may not know she's married. 

But on the official "plan" please let your wife know that you are fully aware she was in contact again and in order to keep you and stay in the marriage, she needs to end the affair--completely. To show you her willingness to end the affair, she needs to do three things: 

1) write a No Contact letter to the OM that she gives to you and you send (that way it's not a love letter, but "we can't be together because it's not our fate" kind of garbage ). 

2) give you access to all of her emails, facebooks, accounts, chats, chat logs, cell phone, cell phone bill, etc. so that she is indicating to you that she will be open with you and you can check up on her to verify her honesty. 

3) agree to work with you to rebuild the marriage. This means that she voluntarily agrees that she will put her energies into creating love in THIS relationship and focus her thoughts and feelings on being a better wife, working on questionnaires or books etc. together, and spending time with you to reconnect. 

Okay--I'll check on you tomorrow.


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## turnera

One thing you have to keep doing is reiterating - as many times as it takes, and as irritating as it gets - that you will NOT keep her if she won't get rid of OM. PERIOD.

She HAS to understand she doesn't get to keep you, the house, the money, the family...nothing - if she doesn't dump OM.

She NEEDS you to show some strength here, NOT to be nice. Plan A and nice are NOT the same thing. Plan A is being an amazing catch, while making it absolutely clear you love yourself too much to SHARE her.


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## land2634

Affaircare said:


> I'll be here about 9:30am PT/noon:30 ET to check on you two. Just so you know, having "no contact" is not something that can happen gradually. This article might explain it well: The Purpose Of No Contact The very best way is to end it, entirely and forever. The problem is that she has to want the "no contact" so badly that SHE chooses to do it. You can not make her or force her to actually do "no contact--she has to choose it and then police herself, otherwise this sort of thing will just happen over and over.
> 
> So there are two things you can do. You can write "Jim" a letter that calmly but factually states, "Hello. I am "Wife's" husband. We have been married XX years and I love her very much. I understand you may have feelings for my wife, but you should know know that I made a commitment to devote all of my affection and loyalty to my wife and I intend to honor that vow in every way I can. I would like to ask you to stop seeing "Wife" as she is a very married woman, so we can work on our marriage. Thank you." I mean--just tell the guy straight out! Plus ask him to leave her alone! He may not know she's married.
> 
> But on the official "plan" please let your wife know that you are fully aware she was in contact again and in order to keep you and stay in the marriage, she needs to end the affair--completely. To show you her willingness to end the affair, she needs to do three things:
> 
> 1) write a No Contact letter to the OM that she gives to you and you send (that way it's not a love letter, but "we can't be together because it's not our fate" kind of garbage ).
> 
> 2) give you access to all of her emails, facebooks, accounts, chats, chat logs, cell phone, cell phone bill, etc. so that she is indicating to you that she will be open with you and you can check up on her to verify her honesty.
> 
> 3) agree to work with you to rebuild the marriage. This means that she voluntarily agrees that she will put her energies into creating love in THIS relationship and focus her thoughts and feelings on being a better wife, working on questionnaires or books etc. together, and spending time with you to reconnect.
> 
> Okay--I'll check on you tomorrow.


Hi, thanks for the response. I know Jim, I worked with him for 2 years. He definitely knows we are married.

I think my problem to this point is that I've been too nice. Maybe I've made her feel like it's ok to "ween" off of this. I have access to everything except for her cell phone. I haven't asked to see it, but I need to do that.

Just to be sure, where can I find an exact step-by-step of what Plan A entails? I'd like to be sure I'm following the protocol here.

Thanks again!


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## land2634

Ok, here's a question for today.

She continues to talk to him on the phone for lengthy periods of time. She works until 10 tonight. Would printing the call log and handing it to her when she walks in and asking her to talk be a good way of approaching the situation?


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## turnera

Yep. Along with having her suitcase packed and sitting next to the door when you do it.

What you do is say "I will NOT allow you to live here and disrespect our marriage. If you will not stop talking to him while you are MARRIED, you need to leave." It's time to man up.


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## Affaircare

land2634 said:


> ...She continues to talk to him on the phone for lengthy periods of time. She works until 10 tonight. Would printing the call log and handing it to her when she walks in and asking her to talk be a good way of approaching the situation?





turnera said:


> Yep. Along with having her suitcase packed and sitting next to the door when you do it.
> 
> What you do is say "I will NOT allow you to live here and disrespect our marriage. If you will not stop talking to him while you are MARRIED, you need to leave." It's time to man up.


I have to politely disagree with my esteemed colleague--not so much in theory but in methodology. Okay that's fancy talk for I think I disagree with the actions turnera suggests, but not necessarily the reasoning or WHY.

I hate to keep referring people to my articles--but they have it all written out rather than having to retype it over and over!  Okay anyway, land, I refer you to The Purpose Of No Contact because I believe it is important for you to have a very FIRM grip on why there has to be NO CONTACT and why she can never, ever contact the OM again. When you have that solid in your mind, I believe you can proceed. 

When she comes home, our very second step about how to end an affair is "Confront" and in that step you speak to your wife, face-to-face, and let her know that you have proof the affair is continuing and you will not accept that. Then you ask her right out loud to end the affair and give you 3 things to prove her willingness to really end it: 

1) NO CONTACT--she has to write the OM a no contact letter and give it to you to send to him (that way it won't be a love letter "but fate won't allow us to be together" kind of b.s.). She agrees to never, ever contact him again--NOT EVEN AT WORK--and since she has proven she is not able to control herself at work, she needs to either transfer to a new location within the company, ask him to transfer, or she has to quit her job. And yep--it's that serious. Do not agree to let her "trail it off" or gradually 
2) Access to all accounts, emails, passwords, facebooks, cellphones, forums, chats, etc. It is up to her to prove to you that you can trust her, and one way to do that she has to be willing to be open and honest with you and not hide things and be secretive. Thus yep she may feel like you're "checking up on her" and yet this is a direct consequence of her lying. 
3) Agree to actually put work and effort and energy into THIS relationship and working on herself and building a whole new marriage. 

I would not confront her with the call logs printed out because then she would know your method of "snoop-ology" and usually a disloyal will either change the password so you can't see, change from the phone to something else, etc. Don't let her KNOW how you know or what you do to verify her honesty--just let her know that you KNOW! Don't be shaken; don't let her justify it; don't let her explain it away...and don't give her a clue how you know. 

Next, I wouldn't kick her out just yet. Usually if you jump the gun and kick out a disloyal, then they play the victim: "He treated me like [email protected] for years and then when I got a job he kicked me out for becoming myself...." blah-blah-blah. Thus, I would recommend confronting her--definitely! I would recommend being firm and not being swayed to the left or right--definitely. I would recommend giving her the chance to do the right thing first. Then I would recommend being firm: "Either the affair ends and you agree NO CONTACT tonight, right now...or you choose to continue contact with the other man and pack and leave right now. Which do YOU choose? You are free to make your own decisions about your own life, but I will not accept an unfaithful life partner in my life." This means that SHE MADE THE CHOICE TO LEAVE--you didn't make her or force her or kick her out. She chose it! And you did not give up your "snoop-ology" method. 

She will most likely bulk at that no contact, transfer or quit your job...but don't buckle. No contact is direly important.


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## land2634

Affaircare said:


> I have to politely disagree with my esteemed colleague--not so much in theory but in methodology. Okay that's fancy talk for I think I disagree with the actions turnera suggests, but not necessarily the reasoning or WHY.
> 
> I hate to keep referring people to my articles--but they have it all written out rather than having to retype it over and over!  Okay anyway, land, I refer you to The Purpose Of No Contact because I believe it is important for you to have a very FIRM grip on why there has to be NO CONTACT and why she can never, ever contact the OM again. When you have that solid in your mind, I believe you can proceed.
> 
> When she comes home, our very second step about how to end an affair is "Confront" and in that step you speak to your wife, face-to-face, and let her know that you have proof the affair is continuing and you will not accept that. Then you ask her right out loud to end the affair and give you 3 things to prove her willingness to really end it:
> 
> 1) NO CONTACT--she has to write the OM a no contact letter and give it to you to send to him (that way it won't be a love letter "but fate won't allow us to be together" kind of b.s.). She agrees to never, ever contact him again--NOT EVEN AT WORK--and since she has proven she is not able to control herself at work, she needs to either transfer to a new location within the company, ask him to transfer, or she has to quit her job. And yep--it's that serious. Do not agree to let her "trail it off" or gradually
> 2) Access to all accounts, emails, passwords, facebooks, cellphones, forums, chats, etc. It is up to her to prove to you that you can trust her, and one way to do that she has to be willing to be open and honest with you and not hide things and be secretive. Thus yep she may feel like you're "checking up on her" and yet this is a direct consequence of her lying.
> 3) Agree to actually put work and effort and energy into THIS relationship and working on herself and building a whole new marriage.
> 
> I would not confront her with the call logs printed out because then she would know your method of "snoop-ology" and usually a disloyal will either change the password so you can't see, change from the phone to something else, etc. Don't let her KNOW how you know or what you do to verify her honesty--just let her know that you KNOW! Don't be shaken; don't let her justify it; don't let her explain it away...and don't give her a clue how you know.
> 
> Next, I wouldn't kick her out just yet. Usually if you jump the gen and kick out a disloyal then they play the victim: "He treated me like [email protected] for years and then when I got a job he kicked me out for becoming myself...." blah-blah-blah. Thus, I would recommend confronting her--definitely! I would recommend being firm and not being swayed to the left or right--definitely. I would recommend giving her the chance to do the right thing first. Then I would recommend being firm: "Either the affair ends and you agree NO CONTACT tonight, right now...or you choose to continue contact with the other man and pack and leave right now. Which do YOU choose? You are free to make your own decisions about your own life, but I will not accept an unfaithful life partner in my life." This means that SHE MADE THE CHOICE TO LEAVE--you didn't make her or force her or kick her out. She chose it! And you did not give up your "snoop-ology" method.
> 
> She will most likely bulk at that no contact, transfer or quit your job...but don't buckle. No contact is direly important.


This makes sense. Hopefully I can stay firm and make this happen tonight.


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## iamnottheonlyone

Don't ask her to leave. It is much harder to recover your marriage with her out of the house. Having her leave is a bad idea.


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## Affaircare

NOTE TO SELF: Not always IANTOO. That is to say, it is not reasonable to have a disloyal spouse in the house blatantly flaunting their lover in front of you, talking on the cell right in front of you, etc. 

What I usually advise is that when the disloyal says "You have to move out (...so I can move my lover in...) don't fall for it and don't move out. This puts a crimp in the affair because the loyal is demonized and supposed to disappear, and the disloyal gets the house, the kids, all the money ... and the new lover and everyone is "happy for them." When they get a glimpse of "real life" (loyal doesn't disappear, loyal gets the house and custody, disloyal has to pay child support and cant' really live on what's left and people are hurt and upset about the lover) it adds some reality to their affair-fantasy. 

Also on the occasion when a disloyal just WILL NOT end the affair, a loyal can say "This is our marital home. I do not choose to have an affair conducted in the home of our family and our marriage. I am not leaving our marriage or our home so if you want to conduct this affair, please do so elsewhere." That's when the disloyal usually leaves. They'll crash at a friend's house or get their own apartment...and you can't stop them but whether they had stayed home or moved out, they were DETERMINED to continue their affair. So either way--it's not too good IANTOO and usually it's not the moving out so much as the hardening the heart and being stubborn and too prideful to admit they are wrong.


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## iamnottheonlyone

Gotcha. Keep spoonfeeding me. But let me wipe my own chin.


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## Affaircare

Oh sorry Iam--and since this is Land's thread...land2634 too. I just don't want either of you to carry a lot of guilt, that isn't yours to carry, if you ask your spouse to leave when they are having an affair...or think that you're asking them to move out is what ended the marriage. 

Here's the fact. When your spouse behaves in a way that is sexually immoral, by pretty much every major religion and moral code I know, you have the right then and there (upon finding the evidence) to send them to the curb and walk away from the marriage entirely with your head held high and file for divorce--legally, spiritually, ethically, morally, and the one who was betrayed as the right to declare the vows broken and end it. Period. Know what I mean? I honestly consider anyone who even *tries* to work on it and DOESN'T just immediately throw a disloyal to the curb as a hero! What commitment--it's admirable!

If you found your spouse was having an affair and you put them out, asked them to move, or threw their things out the window into their flaming car... the marriage was not shattered by you asking them to move out. They may *say* that to deflect blame to you! But this is JUST LIKE the exposure. It is THEIR CHOICE TO COMMIT ADULTERY that shattered the marriage, and their refusal to admit their mistake and do what they know is right. 

So don't be distracted by smoke and mirrors, or carry a burden that isn't yours to carry. If they will not give up their affair for the spouse and the one to whom they promised to faithfully devote all of their affection and loyalty--it is reasonable to ask them to move out until such time as they will commit to their vow and prove that they mean it.


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## turnera

The reason I suggested confronting her in this way is that she is continuing to ignore him and carry on what SHE wants. I have a feeling nothing is going to get through to her but a strong showing of "I will not accept this." And I honestly didn't expect her to end up leaving, but rather to show her that he's serious about not being her cake. Is it a risk? Yes. But IMO she's too confident that he has no cajones.

I prefer the longer, safer method as you described. I'm just not sure it's going to get through to her. Sometimes women just get mad when their men do that, and dig their heels in out of spite. Only he knows what she is like.


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## iamnottheonlyone

In my case, my wife has done the dizzy justification. After I discovered the affair I asked her to leave. Therefore I didn't want her. So having the affair was justified. Her view was that I didn't want her before the affair started. I had all ready tossed her out of my heart. Ordering to leave was just the physical part. She can tell others that she would have stayed but that she knows I really didn't want her and no I am only trying to control her. FOG.


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## land2634

So I finally got the chance to confront her last night about Jim, and she left me...

I don't know what to do. She called one of her friends and stayed over there last night. She packed at least 3 changes of clothes.

She yelled at me, telling me she is done trying for our marriage. What can I do?

If I'm served divorce papers, how I can I prolong the process? I live in Texas.

I just want to stay with my wife, and I don't care what has to happen for that to take place.


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## turnera

land, you don't have a marriage, if you just let her cheat on you, to keep her in your home.

fwiw, wayward wives almost ALWAYS leave or threaten to leave if you confront them. Go to marriagebuilders.com and learn about what you're going through. It's not over yet. She'll scream and yell and blame and try to push you in a corner, so she can get you on your knees begging her to come back in any condition, to continue to keep Jim in her life AND be married.

Do you seriously want that?


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## land2634

turnera said:


> land, you don't have a marriage, if you just let her cheat on you, to keep her in your home.
> 
> fwiw, wayward wives almost ALWAYS leave or threaten to leave if you confront them. Go to marriagebuilders.com and learn about what you're going through. It's not over yet. She'll scream and yell and blame and try to push you in a corner, so she can get you on your knees begging her to come back in any condition, to continue to keep Jim in her life AND be married.
> 
> Do you seriously want that?


I'd really like to rebuild it. I just hope this doesn't mean it's really over with.


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## Tanelornpete

> I'd really like to rebuild it. I just hope this doesn't mean it's really over with.


I'd bet this is NOT the end at all. This is pretty much normal behavior - it happens quite often. You confronted an addict about their addiction and the got angry.

You have a lot of work to do though. First thing: go into calm mode, and turn entirely rational. Think before you act in everything you do. Make sure you learn everything you can about affairs, marriage, and recovery. Stand for your family. 

In essence, confronting your wife started the course to recovery. It was the notification to her that you will fight for your marriage (and you won't fight with her!) She knows it is in the open and she has some serious thinking to do. 

She is going to try to get you to give in to her, to allow her addiction to continue. Stay strong. Stay the course. You have a marriage, it is in trouble, and you are gathering the tools and wherewithal to fix it.


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## land2634

Tanelornpete said:


> I'd bet this is NOT the end at all. This is pretty much normal behavior - it happens quite often. You confronted an addict about their addiction and the got angry.
> 
> You have a lot of work to do though. First thing: go into calm mode, and turn entirely rational. Think before you act in everything you do. Make sure you learn everything you can about affairs, marriage, and recovery. Stand for your family.
> 
> In essence, confronting your wife started the course to recovery. It was the notification to her that you will fight for your marriage (and you won't fight with her!) She knows it is in the open and she has some serious thinking to do.
> 
> She is going to try to get you to give in to her, to allow her addiction to continue. Stay strong. Stay the course. You have a marriage, it is in trouble, and you are gathering the tools and wherewithal to fix it.


Thanks for the encouraging words. Today has been a pretty rough day for me. I haven't had any contact with her and I'm pretty emotional. I can't handle being in the house because of all the bad memories left inside (we moved in right before all of these problems started surfacing).


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## iamnottheonlyone

As everyone has told you. stay calm. No begging, pleading or groveling. They won't work. Don't call her or text her repeatedly. You need to read and learn quickly. You were right to confront. Divorce is a long way down the road. Be patient. She will try to manipulate you. She is in the fog. Be rational and kind. No love busters. Read some of these threads from the beginning. The longer ones will give you perspective as you can see the changes. The pain is real. You have to bring it under control. All of what is happening to you is very cookie cutter and predictable. You have to get ahead of the curve. You are going to learn much in a short time. What you learn she does not know. Don't tell her what you learn. It is important you don't reveal that you know how she will behave. All of us lose confidence quickly. Confidence evaporates. You need to stay strong. Strength is attractive. Begging is not. Learn fast!!!


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## jessi

lands,
hang on, this is not the end, of course she ran, she got caught in the act with proof and she knows that she has been lying to you...you want her to feel the brunt of what she is doing, don't feel bad about that...
right now you can only control yourself, be firm when you do speak to her, tell her it's him or you.....make her decide if giving you up for him is worth it to her.....let him fill all her needs even the ones you have been taking care of and see if he really wants to step up to the plate.....chances are he won't want to take on all that responsibility....
Be the supportive, loving husband, tell her you love her, don't want the marriage to end and when she is ready to give him up for good and work on the marriage you will gladly welcome her back.....
keep yourself busy and don't dwell on the past, think of your plan to win her back and focus on that future, don't take anything to heart with what she says at this point.....she is deep in affair fog........
good luck and come here for support, lots of great folks willing to help and support you through this...


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## turnera

Oh, and don't forget that YOU will not support her affair. If she chooses to leave the house, SHE will find a way to pay for her new place; YOUR money stays at HOME, taking care of your home and family.

And remember that any kind of legal separation or divorce is a long way down the road, and likely to not occur. So don't even pay any attention to that talk. You'll believe it when you see it, kwim?

Just stay calm and steady. YOU are not going anywhere, YOU are still the same person with the same goals. SHE is the one running from her shame. LET her. Let her feel her consequences.

Have you told everyone important? By now, she's calling people and spinning her version: you're mean, abusive, crazy, etc., and she had no choice. Best for you to call them before she does.


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## land2634

Very emotional night.

I decided to send her a text telling her to have a good night. I actually got a response, but not one I wanted. It said, "Yeah, my days have been ****ty, so thank you."

I didn't know what to say, so I didn't reply back. I'm really worried that she may actually have already made up her mind that it's over. Then again, would her day have been so bad if she wasn't battling with it?

Maybe I'm over-thinking things. I'm trying to project a positive image to her. It's just hard to project that image to my own self.


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## turnera

Are you listening to us?

We keep telling you that what she is doing is exactly what waywards do. It's truly a script because they all do it, all say the same things. So stop worrying. What is, is. And you are a LONG way from any change. Right now she is just fuming because you are threatening to take away her heroin. Right NOW is when you should be calling her family and friends and letting them know she's cheating and asking them for help. After you ask her one more time to stop seeing him. If you don't, she will entrench herself on 'his' side. Right now is when you have the power to shut it down by shining light on it so she can't pretend he's just a friend and she 'had' to leave you. If you let her tell everyone first, she will spin it so that YOU are the problem; then, you lose.


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## land2634

turnera said:


> Are you listening to us?
> 
> We keep telling you that what she is doing is exactly what waywards do. It's truly a script because they all do it, all say the same things. So stop worrying. What is, is. And you are a LONG way from any change. Right now she is just fuming because you are threatening to take away her heroin. Right NOW is when you should be calling her family and friends and letting them know she's cheating and asking them for help. After you ask her one more time to stop seeing him. If you don't, she will entrench herself on 'his' side. Right now is when you have the power to shut it down by shining light on it so she can't pretend he's just a friend and she 'had' to leave you. If you let her tell everyone first, she will spin it so that YOU are the problem; then, you lose.


I understand. To this point, I've been unable to get her best friend to pick up the phone. She undoubtedly has already heard my wife's end of the story.

Either way, what are the rules for contact in this situation?

She took all of her clothes from the house this morning while I was gone.


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## Tanelornpete

> Either way, what are the rules for contact in this situation?


1) I'd avoid talking to the friend with whom she stays - that's probably a closed door right now. 

2) As for 'rules' - no gossip, no hearsay, don't make anything up. Be civil, friendly and kind. Let them know what is going on, and that you want to work on your marriage. 

The point of exposing the affair is to make sure the TRUTH is out there, along with the lies. People are free to choose sides, and over time, it will become apparent who is telling the truth and who is not. 

Don't expect a lot of help. At the most, you'll probably get a lot of sympathy. But the real point of exposure becomes clear when your wife runs into people who know what is going on - she won't be able to hide it. 

And that hiding is a large portion of the thrill of the affair. As that goes, the spark of the affair begins to die.


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## land2634

Tanelornpete said:


> 1) I'd avoid talking to the friend with whom she stays - that's probably a closed door right now.
> 
> 2) As for 'rules' - no gossip, no hearsay, don't make anything up. Be civil, friendly and kind. Let them know what is going on, and that you want to work on your marriage.
> 
> The point of exposing the affair is to make sure the TRUTH is out there, along with the lies. People are free to choose sides, and over time, it will become apparent who is telling the truth and who is not.
> 
> Don't expect a lot of help. At the most, you'll probably get a lot of sympathy. But the real point of exposure becomes clear when your wife runs into people who know what is going on - she won't be able to hide it.
> 
> And that hiding is a large portion of the thrill of the affair. As that goes, the spark of the affair begins to die.


It actually turns out she is staying with her mom. Her mom has kept in contact with me to this point.

From what I can tell, she hasn't spent much time talking to Jim since she left. I don't know that for sure, but the phone calls haven't been happening at all. Maybe the shame of her good friends and mom knowing is starting to get to her?


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## turnera

Thus the benefit of exposure. It's no longer sneaky, exciting, and thrilling - it's embarrassing, especially in front of her own mom!


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## land2634

I've been watching closely, and it doesn't seem she is having contact with Jim outside of work. Obviously, she could be texting him, but the phone calls have disappeared completely. After the way she told me she didn't care what I thought about him and that he had nothing to do with our problems, she obviously knew she was wrong or she would still be calling him.

She is still telling her friends that she is done with me and is finished trying to mend our marriage.

I have surrounded myself with a support group of people that are 100% behind me as far as bringing the marriage back from the brink of destruction. Obviously, the affair has to end for it to happen, but nonetheless, I am committed to the marriage and the people around me support me in that.

Do wayward spouses usually end up initiating contact, or how does that work? I realize I'm a long way away from being out of the woods, but I want to be as prepared as possible for every scenario.


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## Affaircare

land~

I've reviewed your sitch again just to be sure I have all the facts, and I want to review with you okay?

We told you that there are two overarching steps to this process: 1) End the affair and 2) Recover a healthy marriage. We are in step one, so our goal is to END THE AFFAIR. 

To that end we looked at the seven steps of ending an affair:

Gather evidence
Confront your spouse 
Disclose to one trusted, wise-counsel
Expose to those who would be affected
Carrot & Stick (Plan A on marriagebuilders)
Consequences (Plan B on marriagebuilders)
Legal Separation
You gathered enough evidence to know that the affair was still ongoing, and I would say her response of rage and leaving pretty much proves that point! 

You did confront your disloyal spouse. Her response at that moment was to get very upset, spout a lot of disloyal dizziness (deflecting attention from her adultery onto your... what? Daring to ask her to stop it?). Now to continue to end the affair you can either move forward to the step of Disclosing, or you can re-iterate this confront step. 

You may want to consider giving her the offer and option to do the right thing again, land, and here's why I think that. Based on what you write, her actions tend to indicate that some part of her knows what she's doing is wrong. Sometimes a disloyal gets so caught up in it that then they feel like, "Well too many bridges are burned now--I can't go back" so even if she wants to do the right thing she may *think* that she can't. 

On the other hand, if she is already talking to her friends about how "she is done with you" then what she's doing is laying the groundwork for blaming you for the divorce. It will be something like this: "He never paid any attention to me and when he was home he was abusive and controlling. I had to leave him to get away from his emotional abuse." Then she'll use as an example, something like the time she told you about the affair and you just FLIPPED OUT screaming...conveniently forgetting to include the "affair" part. I actually knew one person who told the women in her office "oh yeah he screamed at me" and when the loyal spouse said, "did you tell them I screamed because I just saw a nude picture of you with another man?" she replied, "that's none of their business!" So ... yeah dizzy!! :crazy:

Thus if you think she's having second thoughts and needs one more chance to get over her pride--I say be gracious and let her know she can undo the wrong she's done. If she's hardened her heart, I *VERY STRONGLY* urge you to move to the next step which is disclosure to one trusted, wise-counsel person in your wife's life--LIKE HER MOTHER! If her mom is giving her a place to say, her mom needs to know that the reason for this split is her adultery!


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## land2634

I hadn't spoken to my wife in a few days until today. My dad saw Jim in a convenience store, recognized him, and decided to say something.

Whether it was a good idea or not, my dad told him to leave my wife alone, that he was ruining a marriage.

Jim apologized to my dad and said that was the last thing he wants to do (yeah right) and then immediately called my wife (seen on the call log).

She's very angry with me right now. My understanding is this is part of it. She knows people know and it makes her mad. She has indeed been telling people that I "hurt her for so long that she had to leave."

Just trying to remain patient and see what happens.


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## turnera

She is SUPPOSED to be mad. If she wasn't, I would be worried!

Her being mad is perfect, because it is proving to herself - no matter who is responsible for the exposure - that people will NOT accept her affair. That they think badly of her. No one wants to walk around in life knowing that people are looking at you, whispering about you, judging you . 

It sucks!

And it is precisely what she has to look forward to if she stays in her affair.

So now, now that things are rolling, she has to sit back and realize what her NEW life will be like, if she chooses it.

Above all - and this is IF you want her back - your job is to remain strong, silent, and forgiving. Forgive all she has done? Not by a long shot. But forgiving enough to let her come back if she meets your new higher standards for a marriage? Absolutely.

Make sure she always knows she has a way home, if she will only take the step toward humility and asking forgiveness. That's all it takes. Let her know that.


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## turnera

Oh, and think about all the Love Busters Jim just made to her, calling her and cussing her out (most likely) about 'letting' her FIL chew him out!

All the while, you sit there, calm, collected, forgiving...while he becomes more and more of a jerk.


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## land2634

I wanted to update on what happened tonight.

She overreacted to my dad talking to Jim.

While I was at my parents', she had her friends (the ones that I KNOW she has been telling lies to) help her load up all of our furniture. My parents went out for a drive, passed by and saw it all happening. They blocked the driveway until I could get there, and her friend called the cops.

When I arrived, the cops talked with me for a few minutes. The brought my wife and myself together, and I acted as if I didn't have a care in the world. I asked her what all she had taken, told her what I needed her to leave, and that the dog was staying with me since SHE chose to leave.

The situation was MUCH uglier than it needed to be. What now?

I know she shouldn't have gotten anything, but what can I do at this point?


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## iamnottheonlyone

What is she doing with the furniture? 
I reread your thread. All this went along pretty rapidly. (However, my wife was out of the house the day I found out.) My wife also snuck back in to grab things a few days later. 
I would say you are now in the holding pattern. Recognize that you can't change her mind or feelings. Only she can. What do you do? Work on you. You read and read. Excellent. Keep reading and keep posting. 
How are you feeling? This is a very painful time. You need to havd some one to talk to. Someone who will let you get things off your chest. Know that the real pain will last about a month. You will likely continue to have problems eating. You will know you are getting better when you start eating again (3 to 4 weeks). Hold it together. Cry if you must.
Study Plan A. Understand that this is a real time commitment. The affair needs to flame out BEFORE you can make any depoists in the love bank. You will never truly be prepared for the things she is going to say to you. Disloyal dizziness. After she says she doesn't love you, hasn't loved you, come back here and post so that you can get a interpretation. Do not react to these crazy statements.
No love busters. It is likely that the best you can do is do no harm.
I have taken the view that I will do the best I can to prevent filing of divorce. 
My wife seems to be heading to vagabond stage. She can't stay with her boyfriend, because he has kids at home. Her girlfriend is getting tired of her at her house. She will have to get her own place at some point or change her tune and come home. Coming home is very unlikely because she is still in the fog. I have months and months of this a head of me, just like you.
The question for you now is do you have the strength to wait it out? All the self doubts will fade. Your confidence will return. It will be come easier to hold on. However you might decide to move on before then. Are you committed to the marriage? 
I am guessing that with affairs involving long marriages like mine, the wayward spouse was committed to the marriage for a long time. Only the affair changed that. However in short marriages the bond of commitment may never have cemented. If there never was a real commitment then your wife has to find a reason to commit. You have to start thinking like the OP. How did you attract her in the first place? That doesn't mean getting her flowers. (Been there, done that). It is about attitude and confidence. Are you having any interaction?


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## turnera

Thank God for your parents! What great help they have been!

You did great. She is running from her shame. Period. Let her. It is NOT a pretty place to be in. Let her simmer in its nasty juices. YOU, on the other hand, just remain calm, loving, forgiving (if she meets your requirements), and logical. Let her see what she is giving up. 

DO get on the phone this morning and call EVERYONE who matters to her, and tell them what she has done, and WHY. They will believe the first person to talk to them, so don't let HER get to them first and spin her lies. Spread the truth, and let her realize she has just thrown her life away for OM. 

DO remind her - if this is what you want - that you welcome her back whenever she wants, as long as she is ready to give up OM and never ever communicate with him again. (and a few other things we can help you with)

Don't be too upset; this is all to be expected. In fact, I prefer it because it means that exposure is VERY powerful on her. As long as she feels she has a way home, this is good. Go to marriagebuilders.com and read up on Plan A, as Iam suggests. Knowledge is power at this point.


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## land2634

Most people already know the situation by now. One of her best friends has told her she will not support what she is doing, yet still loves her.

The friends that helped her raid the house probably won't speak to me long enough to let me fill them in on what the true story is, so I ask another question.

She has a friend that she doesn't talk to very often, and most likely hasn't bothered to call throughout all of this. The friend lives across the state of Texas, but my wife would be VERY upset if this friend knew the truth. Even though they don't speak, will it do any good to inform this friend of what is going on?


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## MrRomantic




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## iamnottheonlyone

Most of her friends who know you, once they find out she ia having an affair, will be upset with her. They will not want to meet him and will be uncomfortable when they do. After I told our friends about my wife's affair, she told me she now has no friends. That isn't accurate. She just has chosen to ignore them. All of them have reached out to her. She has only spoken to two of them. Both of them advised her not to do what she was doing. She has many loving friends. Amazing people. She is ashamed and embarrassed. And stubborn. She claims to be happy , but I have never seen her so miserable. Very little fun. She is working the hardest she ever has worked, to make ends meet on her own. She barely sees her son. 
It seems more likely, in my mind, that this affair will collapse of its own weight. She may never come back to me. But I have made every reasonable effort to show that I want her back and will do what it takes to recover my marriage and the woman I love. I am not embarrrassed, ashamed or stubborn (now!). Do what needs to be done so. If it doesn't work you have stood tall for your wife and your marriage.


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## turnera

It's usually those about whom they would be most upset at knowing who are the most important people for you to contact. Why? Because it forces your wife to look at herself in the mirror and see herself in the way her friend will see her.

And please don't make the mistake of _assuming _who knows what and when. DO catch up with them.


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## land2634

She text messaged me yesterday and said, "I'm so sorry for how terrible this has all been."

I responded by telling her that I still love her and would welcome her back if she is committed to giving me 100% of her emotions, not someone else.

She responded to that by saying, "Jim has been a wonderful support for me, but I can't go through all of this s*** just for him."

Throughout the evening, we talked via text. She apologized for things getting to this point and said, "I just don't know what to do anymore." That response seems better than the, "F*** off" I got just a few days before.

I've been speaking with a pastor (he was my youth pastor in early high school and I've kept in touch over the past 8 years) about the situation. He is of the same mind that contact with Jim must end. I have no way of being 100% sure that this will be the case, so do I move on just trusting anything she may tell me? Obviously, a no contact letter would be beneficial, but even then, how can I be sure?

This pastor wants to take some time to talk to my wife. He doesn't really want to speak to her on the affair end of things, more just sit down and talk to her about why she is where she is and get a feel for where her head is at. Is this a good idea?


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## MrRomantic

I definitely think talking is a good thing.

Wow, it sounds amazing that your wife might be coming to her senses! I wish you the best of luck.

In your situation, I would extend her trust again. It will be hard, but if this relationship is going to work, you BOTH have to work on it. Now is not the time for you give her any guilt trips or try to control her. If you have another chance left to give her, do it. Decide right now what you will do if she throws her chance away.


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## Affaircare

land2634 said:


> She text messaged me yesterday and said, "I'm so sorry for how terrible this has all been."
> 
> I responded by telling her that I still love her and would welcome her back if she is committed to giving me 100% of her emotions, not someone else.
> 
> She responded to that by saying, "Jim has been a wonderful support for me, but I can't go through all of this s*** just for him."
> 
> Throughout the evening, we talked via text. She apologized for things getting to this point and said, "I just don't know what to do anymore." That response seems better than the, "F*** off" I got just a few days before.
> 
> I've been speaking with a pastor (he was my youth pastor in early high school and I've kept in touch over the past 8 years) about the situation. He is of the same mind that contact with Jim must end. I have no way of being 100% sure that this will be the case, so do I move on just trusting anything she may tell me? Obviously, a no contact letter would be beneficial, but even then, how can I be sure?
> 
> This pastor wants to take some time to talk to my wife. He doesn't really want to speak to her on the affair end of things, more just sit down and talk to her about why she is where she is and get a feel for where her head is at. Is this a good idea?


Land~

You touch on some of the fundamental questions about infidelity! You did a great job being firm but loving and standing for your family--and I am praying that you might have nipped the affair right in the bud! Good job! But after the loyal spouse ends the affair, there's actually still much more work to do! 

I would recommend that you take a peek at this article we have about No Contact Letters. Sample No Contact Letters. This will give you several real-life examples of what the letter should be like. It should not be a letter about destiny not allowing them to be together or that kind of thing...it should not focus on the OP or their feelings...it should be about you and your marriage. 

However, I would not suggest "just giving her trust." That's silly. She's demonstrated that she is perfectly capable of lying to your face and looking you right in the eye. So you give her to opportunity to consistently act in a way that will rebuild trust! Here's what I mean. She's welcome to come home and work on the marriage if she: 
1) agrees to write a no contact letter, give it to you, and YOU send it!
2) agrees to give you passwords and access to her accounts: email, facebook, cell phones, and everywhere else that she was using to stay in touch with Jim and hide it from you. The purpose of this is not for you to become her policeman or snoop on her but rather so she can live life transparently and you can verify her honesty. 
3) agrees to commit to working on herself and the marriage with you. That is to say, this is not just "her issue"--you let her down in some major ways and need to be honest with yourself and change! But so does she. She had the option to be honest with you or "run off to someone else" and she took the avoidance route, so she needs to learn what her weaknesses are and how to guard herself against her own weaknesses. 

Honestly? I would recommend either working consistently with your pastor or working with a counselor or coach. If you want, even Tanelorn and I could work with the two of you! But some guidance is helpful to keep you on track and accountable.


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## land2634

Thanks for the advice.

I'm not entirely sure she is ready to come home yet. It seems like she is still battling some emotions. When I asked her if she would like to meet with me to sit down and talk, her response was, "I don't think I can do that right now."

I guess the issue is this: the pastor would like to speak with her, but on the same note, if I tell her he is coming to try to speak with her, she's going to feel teamed up on. Given the circumstances, I realize she is supposed to feel that way, but I do feel as if the discussion would help. She knows him as well, so he's somewhat of a mutual friend. I don't want her to feel any more uncomfortable than she has to, but I think he could really give her some perspective to consider and chew on. If he does this, he will be driving in from outside of town, so I want to make sure I make the right decision if I give him the go-ahead to seek her out and speak with her.


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## Affaircare

:scratchhead: Well I guess I'm rather  confused. If your youth pastor wants to meet with your wife, why would that not be between him and her? I mean, I can't see why you would have any reason for them to NOT meet, and I can see why you would have reason to WANT them to meet....sooooo 

Thus I would suggest telling your youth pastor that if he wants to make the effort to meet her, you have no objection. Thereafter it's between them. Let them arrange it or not or whatever. Right? I don't see any reason why you'd be in the middle there. 

Am I missing something? :scratchhead:


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## land2634

Works for me.

I guess I left out an important detail. She started paying her own cell phone bill, and when my parents wouldn't leave her alone (after I asked them too... trust me it really did get out of hand), she changed her number. When she gave it to me, she forbid me to give it to anyone so she doesn't have to deal with my parents and some mutual friends that were reaching out to her.

Having said that, this means the pastor will actually be showing up at her mom's house without having been able to call her and ask her if it's ok. He's going to ask her to go somewhere for coffee or something similar. I just want to make sure I'm not setting myself up for failure here by giving him the go-ahead to show up unannounced. If she'll at least sit down with him, I can see it being a HUGE help.


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## Affaircare

Land~

You're funny. We can't guarantee success or failure. We can't tell if he shows up...if she'll go with him or not. And if she does go, we can't tell if she'll listen. 

I don't see how it would set you up for failure. He is concerned about her and he is her mutual friend and a minister. In the nicest way possible, it's between her and a man of god and she may decide to harden her heart and not hear him! People do that to God sometimes. But I'd say she is one of his flock and she needs his spiritual guidance. 

So I'd say it's out of your hands and into the hands of the pastor and God now!


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## land2634

Affaircare said:


> Land~
> 
> You're funny. We can't guarantee success or failure. We can't tell if he shows up...if she'll go with him or not. And if she does go, we can't tell if she'll listen.
> 
> I don't see how it would set you up for failure. He is concerned about her and he is her mutual friend and a minister. In the nicest way possible, it's between her and a man of god and she may decide to harden her heart and not hear him! People do that to God sometimes. But I'd say she is one of his flock and she needs his spiritual guidance.
> 
> So I'd say it's out of your hands and into the hands of the pastor and God now!


I see what you're saying. As you can likely tell by now, I'm overly analytical (something I'm sure would be addressed by a counselor, should we ever get to that point). I try to gauge what the most possible or likely outcome is.


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## iamnottheonlyone

Hey, your changing. You have gone from not paying enough attention to paying too much!


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## Affaircare

land2634 said:


> I see what you're saying. As you can likely tell by now, I'm overly analytical (something I'm sure would be addressed by a counselor, should we ever get to that point). I try to gauge what the most possible or likely outcome is.


No worries, my Dear Hubby is an INTJ= Introverted, iNtuitive, Thinker, Judger. He also tries to gather all data, analyze all possible outcomes, and select the most efficient route. I personally don't do that but I know it when I see it!  

Literally my guess at this point is that she might welcome speaking with a man of god, because she is showing some signs of struggling with "doing the right thing." Clearly her conscience is not dead or seared (and that is a hugely good thing)!! Thus, I would conjecture that if he is someone she would listen to, that it has a high likelihood of success. But that is more like an educated "guesstimate" based on experiences rather than based on statistics, logic, or probability figures.


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## turnera

I think what he's saying is he's worried that if the pastor approaches her, it will be obvious to her that he is just one more person he exposed to. My guess is that it would depend on how 'good' the pastor is at soothing people.

Definitely do NOT just trust her! That makes you look like an idiot. She needs to respect you. One of the reasons she's considering coming back, if not THE reason, is that you stood up for yourself and respected yourself too much to let her cheat on you. Don't back down now. Be logical about it - loving but logical. "Come on, do you really think I should just trust you at this point and not want to be able to verify with your phone/computer that you have stopped contact? After you've lied to my face? I'm not THAT dumb. I love you, but I'm not a doormat."


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## land2634

I wanted to post an update.

My wife and I have texted back and forth for the past week. Yesterday morning from work, she was upset and texted me saying how much she misses me but feels as if our marriage can't work. She asked me to take a 90 minute drive with her to meet with a friend of hers, so I went with her.

6 hours later, it seemed that we had talked some issues out, which we continued to talk about today. I allowed her to bring up the topic of her affair, and she mentioned that with all the stress and pressure and people hounding her, Jim just doesn't seem worth the trouble.

She still believes that our marriage is unable to be salvaged. I continue to remain positive around her, trying to display a confidence about myself. She obviously still wants things to possibly work out in the long-run since she spent a good portion of the weekend with me, but I believe she feels as if too many bridges have been burned, despite me reassuring her otherwise.

I have been working on delving deeper and deeper into my faith in God, which I think has thrown another emotional wrench into the equation. While we were both very much driven by our faith when we met, we had fallen away from that basis since getting married. She seems to feel the changes I am making aren't genuine, which I can't say I blame her for thinking, but I remain hopeful that she will take a chance and trust me again, much as I will need some time to trust her again. Any thoughts?


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## turnera

Try to spend more time getting to the root of what she is actually thinking, so you can counteract it.


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## Affaircare

land2634 said:


> I wanted to post an update.
> 
> My wife and I have texted back and forth for the past week. Yesterday morning from work, she was upset and texted me saying how much she misses me but feels as if our marriage can't work. She asked me to take a 90 minute drive with her to meet with a friend of hers, so I went with her.
> 
> 6 hours later, it seemed that we had talked some issues out, which we continued to talk about today. I allowed her to bring up the topic of her affair, and she mentioned that with all the stress and pressure and people hounding her, Jim just doesn't seem worth the trouble.














> She still believes that our marriage is unable to be salvaged. I continue to remain positive around her, trying to display a confidence about myself. She obviously still wants things to possibly work out in the long-run since she spent a good portion of the weekend with me, but I believe she feels as if too many bridges have been burned, despite me reassuring her otherwise.


I believe this is fairly natural and would encourage you to remain as consistent as possible and just take the time to SHOW her that it can be salvaged and the changes are for a lifetime. It may also take you a little while to regain some trust. 



> I have been working on delving deeper and deeper into my faith in God, which I think has thrown another emotional wrench into the equation. While we were both very much driven by our faith when we met, we had fallen away from that basis since getting married. She seems to feel the changes I am making aren't genuine, which I can't say I blame her for thinking, but I remain hopeful that she will take a chance and trust me again, much as I will need some time to trust her again. Any thoughts?


Well you could see my comment right above this, as they're relevant, but actually I do have a thought, yes. 

At this stage neither one of you really "trusts" the other and by that I mean that you hurt her deeply and she's afraid to really believe you...and she hurt you deeply and you're afraid to really believe her. She mostly associates "negative" with you and you associate "negative" with her to some degree. Thus I would suggest two things that help "jump start" this in a positive way. 

1) I do suggest trust-building both ways. Do sit down together and write a No Contact Letter; it's written by her and mailed by you so that it's not "one last love letter.' Here are some Sample No Contact Letters I also recommend that you BOTH share access to all accounts with each other. You want her to show you her email, FB and chats? Show her yours too. It builds trust both ways when both spouses are transparent.

2) I do suggest a little trip. I wouldn't say it's a mini-honeymoon but in a way it is, because the purpose of this trip is to get to know each other again in a fun way, away from the stresses of children and work. In other words...get away somewhere together. Now, don't tell me you "don't have the money" because a divorce will cost you a heck of a lot more! Find a way! Take her someplace you would both find "fun" that isn't entirely "romance based." For example, if she's always wanted to go to see the desert in Moab, UT...take a week vacation just you and her and go. Go see the beauty of creation, enjoy the hiking and take pictures of each other by the rock formations, and at night go to a nice but not "dress up" restaurant. Have FUN with each other. Play. It will start to remind her why she likes you (note I didn't say "love" but that guy she likes who's her friend). If it feels right and is not pressure, kiss her. This will associate a few "positives" with you, and likewise you will have fun with her and associate some "positive" memories with her. It will jump start your re-connection.


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## land2634

Affaircare said:


> I believe this is fairly natural and would encourage you to remain as consistent as possible and just take the time to SHOW her that it can be salvaged and the changes are for a lifetime. It may also take you a little while to regain some trust.
> 
> 
> 
> Well you could see my comment right above this, as they're relevant, but actually I do have a thought, yes.
> 
> At this stage neither one of you really "trusts" the other and by that I mean that you hurt her deeply and she's afraid to really believe you...and she hurt you deeply and you're afraid to really believe her. She mostly associates "negative" with you and you associate "negative" with her to some degree. Thus I would suggest two things that help "jump start" this in a positive way.
> 
> 1) I do suggest trust-building both ways. Do sit down together and write a No Contact Letter; it's written by her and mailed by you so that it's not "one last love letter.' Here are some Sample No Contact Letters I also recommend that you BOTH share access to all accounts with each other. You want her to show you her email, FB and chats? Show her yours too. It builds trust both ways when both spouses are transparent.
> 
> 2) I do suggest a little trip. I wouldn't say it's a mini-honeymoon but in a way it is, because the purpose of this trip is to get to know each other again in a fun way, away from the stresses of children and work. In other words...get away somewhere together. Now, don't tell me you "don't have the money" because a divorce will cost you a heck of a lot more! Find a way! Take her someplace you would both find "fun" that isn't entirely "romance based." For example, if she's always wanted to go to see the desert in Moab, UT...take a week vacation just you and her and go. Go see the beauty of creation, enjoy the hiking and take pictures of each other by the rock formations, and at night go to a nice but not "dress up" restaurant. Have FUN with each other. Play. It will start to remind her why she likes you (note I didn't say "love" but that guy she likes who's her friend). If it feels right and is not pressure, kiss her. This will associate a few "positives" with you, and likewise you will have fun with her and associate some "positive" memories with her. It will jump start your re-connection.


I would love to be able to do these things. The problem is, she still hasn't come home. She doesn't seem willing to do so yet. We've spent time together, but she doesn't really seem to be willing to take it much further than that.

She keeps talking about how angry she still is at me for not seeming like I cared for so long. I can definitely see where she is coming from, and I've more than acknowledged that to her in our conversations, but she doesn't feel it's genuine. It feels almost like an endless circle. Am I basically waiting for her to jump back in and give it all another shot?

Your suggestions seem perfect, but it's looking as if I may need to pocket them for long enough to at least get her to come home. Don't really want to have to "convince" her, if you know what I mean, but I want her to feel as if she has a reason to do so. Am I on the right path to possibly having that happen?


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## iamnottheonlyone

I might suggest that you do not try and convince. We talk about this all time and then when the time comes we can't control ourselves. You have to show her that you can be that loving, caring husband. You have been doing great staying away from love busters. Now you have to see if she is ready for love banking. Can she write that letter? That would be a big move. Don't tush the coming home part. Find the love , then later in a month or two you can work on the issues. Going on a trip with your wife also gets her away from Jim.


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## turnera

She doesn't have to be home for you to Plan A her. You just have to work a little harder to find opportunities. If she's feeling down, mail her a CD of her favorite music. If she's struggling at work, send her a fruit bouquet to her work. If she doesn't believe you listened at home, fix something at home she asked you to fix years ago and let her know that it's done.



> she doesn't feel it's genuine


If I had a dime for every husband who has said that in forums, I'd be a millionaire. 

Women lose trust. IMO, they are like cats. Always on the lookout to see if they'll get attacked (wronged), so as to protect themselves, since they are the weaker species. Once you show, continually, that you will harm them, they remember. And they will start to approach you with the assumption that you will continue to do so. That's why it often takes months, if not years, for a woman to believe that a man has 'changed' to what she needs.

WARNING: GRAND generalization coming, so don't blast me or tell me why you're different:
Seriously, why can't they make teenagers take a class on what it takes to keep a marriage before they graduate? I see it over and over and over...the woman has dreams of housekeeping like she grew up playing; the man (typically) has dreams of being housekept _for _because he never paid attention to that stuff...cos Mom always did it for him. He grew up looking for fun; once married, he doesn't stop to think that the dynamics have changed and he now owes half his allegiance to protecting the marriage. So, when wife complains that she's not getting the dream she had, he thinks so what? She's married. What more does she want? Well, she wanted a partner to enjoy the marriage with her.


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## land2634

turnera said:


> She doesn't have to be home for you to Plan A her. You just have to work a little harder to find opportunities. If she's feeling down, mail her a CD of her favorite music. If she's struggling at work, send her a fruit bouquet to her work. If she doesn't believe you listened at home, fix something at home she asked you to fix years ago and let her know that it's done.
> 
> If I had a dime for every husband who has said that in forums, I'd be a millionaire.
> 
> Women lose trust. IMO, they are like cats. Always on the lookout to see if they'll get attacked (wronged), so as to protect themselves, since they are the weaker species. Once you show, continually, that you will harm them, they remember. And they will start to approach you with the assumption that you will continue to do so. That's why it often takes months, if not years, for a woman to believe that a man has 'changed' to what she needs.
> 
> WARNING: GRAND generalization coming, so don't blast me or tell me why you're different:
> Seriously, why can't they make teenagers take a class on what it takes to keep a marriage before they graduate? I see it over and over and over...the woman has dreams of housekeeping like she grew up playing; the man (typically) has dreams of being housekept _for _because he never paid attention to that stuff...cos Mom always did it for him. He grew up looking for fun; once married, he doesn't stop to think that the dynamics have changed and he now owes half his allegiance to protecting the marriage. So, when wife complains that she's not getting the dream she had, he thinks so what? She's married. What more does she want? Well, she wanted a partner to enjoy the marriage with her.


Your generalization is at least partially true. The main problem in that sense was that we tended to have different priorities on things. If laundry needed to be done and the dishes done, I might do the laundry because I need some pants for work the next day. Well, if she felt the dishes were more pressing, obviously it ended up being an argument. Furthermore, we had varying degrees of what we each considered "messy". For her, if the dog's toys are spread across the floor, the house is messy. For me, there might be dog toys, a few pairs of shoes, and maybe some papers scattered across the coffee table and I still might not think it's messy enough to merit cleaning. It's obviously something I'll have to be mindful of in the future.


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## Tanelornpete

> Seriously, why can't they make teenagers take a class on what it takes to keep a marriage before they graduate?


This is something that is rather near and dear to Affaircare and I - we are working on a program that offers a seminar for churches, etc., in which people who are planning to be married have the opportunity to learn a lot before they make that commitment. It seems to us that a lot of the tools you learn _after an affair_ would be very useful in avoiding that in the first place...


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## land2634

Tanelornpete said:


> This is something that is rather near and dear to Affaircare and I - we are working on a program that offers a seminar for churches, etc., in which people who are planning to be married have the opportunity to learn a lot before they make that commitment. It seems to us that a lot of the tools you learn _after an affair_ would be very useful in avoiding that in the first place...


That is very true. I know many young couples are hesitant to jump into any sort of counseling before marriage (as we were), but I truly wish we had.

I wanted to throw a question out there. As far as sending her something to work or things of that nature, is it possible I could come across as too overbearing?

I want to remind her that she is loved by me, but don't want her to feel smothered with so much affection that she feels I'm trying too hard. Does that make sense?


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## turnera

Do it as if you would a friend. Not romancing.


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## land2634

Just had a thought... I know for a fact her rheumatoid arthritis is flaring up on her (I'm sure stress-induced). How well-received would a gift certificate to a spa or massage be? Just something so she can take some time to relax.


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## Affaircare

I have RA and I can honestly say that would most likely be a well-received gift. However, I do not recommend sending things to her office unless it's like a discreet card she could open at her desk. 

Flowers or singing telegram = NO! 
Card or spa certificate = Yes, delivered with little hoopla. 

That shows you are thinking of her.


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## land2634

Affaircare said:


> I have RA and I can honestly say that would most likely be a well-received gift. However, I do not recommend sending things to her office unless it's like a discreet card she could open at her desk.
> 
> Flowers or singing telegram = NO!
> Card or spa certificate = Yes, delivered with little hoopla.
> 
> That shows you are thinking of her.


Actually, I was considering leaving it at her mom's house, which is where she is staying. Her mom is having problems with her Internet, so she called me asking for help.

If it isn't too personal, living with RA, did you go through a phase of depression after diagnosis? She says it felt like a death sentence to her. I know that somehow, the depression stemming from that has helped play a role in all of this as well, no matter how small or large it may be.


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## Affaircare

Well yes and no. I was diagnosed at 16yo and living in a physically abusive household, so my stress was sky-high at survival level. It didn't go away once I moved out--just was a lot better after I got out of that environment. I tend to believe a lot in holistic and natural treatments as much as possible and over the course of having it for decades now, I've learned to pretty much manage it so that it doesn't slow me down much at all! Ask Dear Hubby! :lol: 

However, I will say I'm not a spring chick anymore and as age advanced, the RA was just...different. THAT was depressing. I didn't feel like I wanted to be old yet. So yep I can see how that would have played into this. It's weird but things like that can kind of make ya lose your mind for a minute and think you have to "be young" again.


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## turnera

Affaircare said:


> I have RA and I can honestly say that would most likely be a well-received gift. However, I do not recommend sending things to her office unless it's like a discreet card she could open at her desk.
> 
> Flowers or singing telegram = NO!
> Card or spa certificate = Yes, delivered with little hoopla.
> 
> That shows you are thinking of her.


 OMG. I've had chronic back pain for 10 years. But I carry on and don't complain. I've given my DH and DD19 gift certificates for massages in the last year; but they NEVER think of doing that for me (although my DD19 did give me a GC for a pedicure last month for my birthday). 

I would be over the moon if I could go to a massage. In fact, I think about it all the time - but never go because I can't afford it.


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## land2634

Definitely had a major letdown tonight.

She hasn't come home yet, and has been more distant in our conversations the last few days. I actually made the comment to a friend that it seems she has someone in her ear telling her that she needs to make me wait. I found out why I felt that way tonight due to the fact that this friend happens to work in the same place as her.

They had an after-work function tonight. The employees stayed after the store closed to watch movies, play video games, etc. My wife normally NEVER goes to these things. She can't stand being at work when she isn't working. Well, turns out Jim was there tonight as well...

I went for a run down at the park by the river when I got a text message from my friend saying that they left at the same time. I had a bad feeling that was confirmed when, a few minutes later, I saw both of their cars parked on the other side of the river. About 30 minutes later, I saw them sitting on a bench, again, on the other side of the river. At this point, I was obviously upset and didn't know what to do. They hadn't seen me, and I kept it that way. I called my friend and he said he was coming to pick me up. Before he got there, they jumped up in a hurry and ran to their cars. I'm pretty sure they saw my vehicle parked in the lot I had parked in and panicked. He passed them on the way to pick me up. At this point, I got in my car and started to drive home. He asked me to meet him up at the college, hop in his car, and we would go grab a beer or something and talk.

While I was on the phone with him, he said, "Never mind, don't go to the college... both of their cars are here now."

So, not only had they panicked, but they made it a point to go somewhere else to spend more time together.

I'm angry, upset, and hurt. I know this is all part of the process, but I still feel the need to vent. I keep replaying it all in my head. Should I have approached them and asked them what was going on? She hasn't exactly said for sure that they were no longer talking, but she definitely tried to imply as much in our conversations. What should I have done?

I'm considering calling the HR department of her place of employment. Is this advised?


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## Affaircare

Land~

I'm so sorry to hear of this turn of events. Now you know why she was "not ready to come home" and it has nothing to do with needing space to think or anything. What it comes down to, in summary, is that things got uncomfy for her and Jim there for a little while, she covered by talking to you as if she was thinking of coming home, some pressure was let up, and now she's right back to her affair. 

I would recommend contacting your pastor friend immediately and tell him he is needed TOMORROW--please drop everything and come talk to her. I would contact her family and your family and let them know what you saw with your own eyes and that contact with the Other Man is continuing and it appears the affair is still on. Finally I would contact the HR department at her place of employment for three reasons: 

1) It is highly likely that either their resources (email, laptops, expense accounts, etc.) are being used to further unwanted sexual advances--and it would behoove them to audit those resources and/or take them away. If they hesitate, please remind them that the Supreme Court recently ruled in City of Ontario V. Quon  that an employer does not violate an employee's right to privacy when they review the texts, emails or pages of the employer's property (i.e., employer's laptop, work email, work cell phone or work pager), as long as the review is "reasonable."

2) It is highly likely that productivity is *greatly* reduced because the two lovers are so busy lying and covering their affair and flirting during work hours--so again it behooves the employer to get between those two so that WORK is getting done! 

3) It is highly likely that due to the unwanted sexual advances (as the spouse of the employee, YOU don't want them), that their business is vulnerable to a sexual harassment lawsuit. To summarize: 'The employer is liable if it knew, or should have known, about the harassment. However, the employer is not liable if immediate and appropriate corrective actions were taken to remedy the problem.' They now know. 

If Jim has a wife, a girlfriend, or a family--contact them as well. They deserve to know that their husband or boyfriend is trying to cheat and that their world is about to be turned upside down. They deserve to know so they can defend themselves (same as you are defending yourself) whether that is legally, financially, etc. 

And literally, FINALLY, I would talk to your wife tomorrow night and say "This is a ONE TIME OFFER TONIGHT. I do love you and intend to honor my vow to you, but you have disrespected our marriage in public. If you agree tonight to end all contact with Jim by resigning from your job, write him a No Contact Letter which I send to him, give me access and passwords to all of your emails and cell phone accounts and chats so I can VERIFY your honesty, and commit to working on the marriage together with me...I will help you move home tonight. I will not accept 'needing space' or 'thinking about it' because I now know that is a stall tactic to continue your affair. So you are completely free to choose but bear in mind that whatever you choose tonight you will experience either the benefits of your choice...or the consequences. You made a committed covenant to me, not to Jim, to forsake all others, and tonight I'm asking you directly to honor YOUR vow. Will you?" 

The end. Let her decide. She will likely be furious and spout "How dare you tell everyone" etc. but bear in mind, Land, that it is not you telling people that is harming her. It is HER BEHAVIOR and what she's choosing to do!! You are just telling people the truth! And the truth could just as easily have been: "I am thrilled to say that she's chosen to work on our marriage and move home!" See? Both are just you telling the truth--the only difference is her choice. 

Our prayers will be with you and again I am so sorry.


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## turnera

It's time for exposure on a massive scale. START with HR. Bring a lawyer friend if you got one, to scare the crap out of them and make them DO something.

Sit down and call EVERYONE who matters, in ONE sitting.


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## land2634

Hi all, it's been awhile. I've been somewhat secluding myself to the gym whenever I'm not working. That and writing my weekly sports column has kept me occupied enough to think about the situation less.

I've worked on exposing this all, but it seems as if I may have waited too long. Her best friend changed her phone number for unrelated reasons to our situation, her mom has been too drunk to talk to the last few times I've seen her, and her manager (my former manager from the time I worked there) has been in meetings in Dallas until tomorrow.

I plan to call him tomorrow and tell him what I know and, if necessary, show him proof so that they can't tell him they are "just friends" anymore. My gut feeling is that, at the very least, he will purposely schedule them on opposite shifts, and at the extreme, they will both lose their jobs. Either way, several of her co-workers, friends of mine, are already aware of the extremity of the situation and haven't been very friendly to Jim.

Today has been rough. I took the suggestion to remind her that coming home is always an option. She was talking about how she misses our dog (he was like a son to her she says) and hopes I'm taking care of him. I responded that I am, and proceeded to tell her that he's been hogging the covers recently. She got upset and said that she didn't want to talk about it anymore and that she can't believe how I have "taken her dog away from her."

At this point, I responded, "Well, we could always go back to being a family. It would involve you dropping what you're doing and coming home to work on our marriage. It won't be easy, I know, but the option is there and I would be here with open arms."

She responded by saying, "I don't think I would be happy. My feelings are not there anymore and I hate your family now."

I responded by saying that every person has a different definition of happiness, and that I am choosing to measure my life based on fulfillment rather than happiness because I know everything won't always be peachy.

She said, "You really don't understand. I'm done and there is nothing left for you."

Is this common?

I'm sure it is, and I know why she doesn't have feelings for me (because she's giving them to someone else), but I almost feel like I'm getting to the end of my rope. Although I'm trying to stay busy and work on myself, I feel like I'm still being stomped all over at all times.


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## turnera

Nothing left for you to do but make the affair hard to continue, IMO.


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## Wisp

Be strong, stay firm, keep the faith and keep posting. 

Make sure you are ready for the long haul, do not give up and be ready for plan a & b or the 7 steps that Tanelornpete refers to in other posts.

Yes she in a fantasy so her feeling are alive with Jim but reality says otherwise, she just can't see it yet.

PS. Jim can only offer her a half full glass or less..your wife will see the light if you stay on course.


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## land2634

Ok, I'd like to get some opinions. I got out of town for the weekend to visit some family. She is still living with her mom as of right now. I'm considering having some roses sent to the house for her tomorrow (Saturday, 7/24). Should I do it or would it be over-the-top and seem desperate?


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## Wisp

Land: 

Land keep on track, you did say you were going to call her Boss , do so make sure he knows you are going to fight for your wife and this could get messy and overflow into the work arena. Notwithstanding that they are having the bulk of the affair on company time. Ask him that you need to have to speak to the HR department, this is not a threat just encourages him to take action.. 

From a previous post

"It is highly likely that due to the unwanted sexual advances (as the spouse of the employee, YOU don't want them), that their business is vulnerable to a sexual harassment lawsuit. To summarize: 'The employer is liable if it knew, or should have known, about the harassment. However, the employer is not liable if immediate and appropriate corrective actions were taken to remedy the problem.' They now know. "

If you do not do this asap, you will be loosing the momentum. Be hard, you have lost her for now , and every delay causes her to drown more in her fantasy and will be more difficult for you to get her out of it. Take the pain now , go for it.. 

Does her mom and family know, I see you have said everyone does. 

I personally don’t have an issue with a card, not flowers. Something like “thinking of you, come home soon”. If you are going to do this do so now, drop it in the post if you have to.

Next time you see you wife with Jim, go over, let him know that he is a user and abuser (I am sure you can come up with a better word) and is using you wife for his fantasy, no arguments just walk away after that. If you have a camera take a photo, makes life unpleasant for them. 

Find Jim’s parents and family details and contact them, let them know he is having an affair with your wife. 

This is all about exposure. Do everything you can to cause unpleasantness. 

Suggest you work on yourself, read Plan A and B, if you are not in plan A start..


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## land2634

Received some more evidence that the affair is very much in full swing and no end in sight.

The basic version is that she has a painting she made that she plans on giving him while various love songs play in the background. Her manager got back into town this weekend, and I'm back into town from my weekend trip, so I plan to give him a call tomorrow to let him know that an affair is going on in the workplace. I'm hoping he will confront both of them without telling them who told him. She knows a few other people from work know about it, so it would be perfectly plausible for someone else to say something. If she doesn't know it was me, then she will be paranoid that everyone from work knows about it, leaving her less likely to continue. Then again, she may sneak further underground with it.

I won't lie, I'm reaching the end of my rope here. I love her VERY much, but I can't continue like this. I believe it will soon be "Plan B" time, if that time is not already here.


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## turnera

Remind me: Did you expose to her family and friends?


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## Wisp

turnera: The known quantity here is the plan says do so but, land2634 is on a different plan. I hope the boss gets contacted?

Sorry land by the time you get to do this it will be so late in the day ..I am supporting you but only you can make the change and the steps are tough


Stay strong


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## turnera

What plan is, that, exactly?


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## Tanelornpete

> ...I'm hoping he will confront both of them without telling them who told him. She knows a few other people from work know about it, so it would be perfectly plausible for someone else to say something. If she doesn't know it was me, then she will be paranoid that everyone from work knows about it, leaving her less likely to continue. Then again, she may sneak further underground with it...


Why is it so important that she not know her husband is the one exposing her affair?

She could easily take it farther underground regardless - that is always a possibility. The effect, however, is the same: at some point the affair will show it's head again, and all the people she has been deceiving will lose a lot of respect for her, meaning that the fallout from the affair will be even more convincing.

But exposure tears away a lot of the fog of an affair; it shows it for what it is: a fantasy relationship based on lies and deceit. In fact, much of the fuel for the affair is dishonesty: if that is removed, it tends to lose it's savor.



> I won't lie, I'm reaching the end of my rope here. I love her VERY much, but I can't continue like this. I believe it will soon be "Plan B" time, if that time is not already here.


A Plan B is entirely useless unless you have already been working on a very good Plan A. Without that step, all you are doing is releasing your spouse to the affair, unabated, and at the same time, causing yourself a great deal of pain.

You say you love her. Love is action, pure and simple. Take action that is aimed at her good, her honor, that respects her. In her case, she is like an addict, the drug is the affair. How would you show love to your wife if she became addicted to some other drug?


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## land2634

Well, it's hitting the fan.

She is mad saying she is going to lose her job because of me. I calmly responded, "You chose to have that relationship, no one else."

Moving on to her grandparents hopefully later this evening or tomorrow morning...


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## Wisp

Again stay strong this is for the long haul , be calm be clear thinking.
Tanelorpete and others will give good advice.


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## land2634

She says she is filing for divorce and for me to leave her alone forever.

Obviously, that can't happen as we'll have to communicate at some point to figure out any potential divorce. We'll see what happens.

She is piping mad because her friend just texted her asking what in the world she is thinking? Her friend didn't believe me at first until I e-mailed her a picture of them kissing.

She just sent me a text saying she is glad I saw the picture because "he treats me so much better than you ever could."


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## Wisp

Again stay strong, the bubble will burst.

Do not wind her up when she calls , may be better at this stage with all the emotions running high to ignore the calls. 

If you do talk always say you love her and she is welcome back home is she stops the affair. Do not fight her your voice must be composed and not aggressive or show emotion in your voice.

Let her family know soonish

This is the start hold your nerve, there is still worse to come...


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## land2634

I feel ok right now just because my adrenaline is going. I know that will drop later though.

As of now, our only contact will be through text message. She is demanding that she wants the dog. I've reminded her that she chose to leave on this path and that she can certainly come home and work on our marriage if she wants to end the affair.


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## land2634

Oddly enough, on another note, I am handling this better than I thought I would be. The fact that she has been so mean and hateful is helping me to feel like I'm doing all I can, as well as proving that she is a different person right now than the woman I married.

Thanks to everyone on this board. I don't recall how I came across this site, but I'm glad I did. God was surely watching out for me. I would have had no idea how to cope without some guidance for all of you fine people, many that are going through or have gone through the same situation as I am.


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## Wisp

Please PM Tanelorpete for advice on the next steps
Your a long way off and there is always a risk for the turn for the worst, always assume the worst so you are not shocked when it happens, 

When you speak to her family be very civil , and ask for their help suggest they call her after a few days when the realisation sets in.

Remember Jim will also be under pressure, they will talk, create plans get emotional , I suspect very emotional based on their behaviours you have described in the past.

Your one and only target for now is to stop the affair thereafter win you wife back 

Suggest after talking to the family let things lay for a short while you assess what is going on..

If she does go to the lawyer say you are going to fight for your marriage and want joint counselling - better advice will be forth coming from the experts.


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## land2634

Wisp said:


> Please PM Tanelorpete for advice on the next steps
> Your a long way off and there is always a risk for the turn for the worst, always assume the worst so you are not shoked when it happens,
> 
> When you speak to her family be very civil , and ask for their help suggest they call her after a few days when the realisation set s in.


Yeah, I'm pretty non-confrontational so I shouldn't have a problem being civil. The day she left, she was yelling and cursing, and I stayed very calm and talked in a soft voice.

I don't like to fight, which is good in some cases, but bad in this instance because I don't have the intestinal fortitude to stand up for myself.


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## land2634

One more thing for now:

For people that are wanting me to provide proof that something is going on, I am e-mailing them the picture I referred to before. Can I get in any sort of trouble for defamation of character or anything of that sort? I don't believe so since it's all true, but I want to cover my bases.


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## Affaircare

Land~

I just wanted to say that I am proud of you. For the first time in a while, you did something definitive to stand up for your marriage and end the affair. Up until today, your disloyally dizzy, confusing, foggy wife has been sort of running the show, and her actions are almost 100% motivated by "getting her next fix" of affair-zing. If you think of her as a drug addict, you'll see how she could lie to you, hurt you, steal from you, and be so spiteful when you envision the way someone acts who is addicted to a drug. 

You gave her the chance to keep this "between you and her" when you confronted her. You gave her the chance to hear wise counsel and save her reputation when you disclosed it to one person she trusts. She could have chosen to do the right thing and turn to you and that wise person for help--and thus have her unfaithfulness less known. Instead she chose to continue her affair, blame you for her choice to commit adultery, and try to keep it secret. 

When she says to you, "HOW COULD YOU drag my name through the mud like this?" just remember that it is her ACTIONS and her choices that have damaged her reputation, not you stating the truth. She could just as easily have chosen to honor her commitment and the truth would have been: "My wife is amazing! Even though it's not easy she chose to be faithful!" 

Land, your marriage can survive anger. It can not survive active adultery. Do not be afraid to make her angry, and do not confuse "making her angry" with a love extinguisher. She chooses to be angry because some part of her knows that what she's doing is wrong and she's doing it anyway. Okay? 

GOOD JOB! 

You took MANY steps forward today toward saving your marriage.


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## Affaircare

land2634 said:


> One more thing for now:
> 
> For people that are wanting me to provide proof that something is going on, I am e-mailing them the picture I referred to before. Can I get in any sort of trouble for defamation of character or anything of that sort? I don't believe so since it's all true, but I want to cover my bases.


Generally speaking, *defamation *is the issuance of a false statement about another person, which causes that person to suffer harm. *Slander *involves the making of defamatory statements by a non-fixed representation, usually an oral (spoken) representation. *Libel *involves the making of defamatory statements in a printed or fixed medium, such as a magazine or newspaper.

The following may consititute defamation per se:


Allegations that an unmarried person is unchaste;
Allegations that a person is infected with a sexually transmitted disease;
Allegations that the person has committed a crime of moral turpitude;

The most important defense to an action for defamation is "truth", which is an absolute defense to an action for defamation. It's not defamation, slander, or libel if it is true.


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## Wisp

DO NOT forget to call her family BEFORE she tells them another story..


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## turnera

I was just going to say that! Call her family NOW! Call everyone.

And if you have his info, call HIS family.


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## iamnottheonlyone

You did the right thing. You really have no other course. You have brought it out in the open. She is reacting just as expected. (Just as my wife has.) History says this will accelerate things. It is still a long haul. Probably at least 6 months until the affair sees real damage. I am 3 months in and just had my first couple of up rides on the rollercoaster. Of course I got the down rides a couple of days later. But I knew from the advice here what to expect. 
They wil have to experience real life. My wife is living life like a high school drop out. She is getting help from her family but the boyfrind appears to not be giving any physical help (mowing the lawn, painting old walls, going to the laundrymat. So if the damage starts sooner you might have a chance to still be hanging around when the affair ends.


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## land2634

I haven't gotten in touch with her manager, but someone else did apparently. I'm not sure who yet, but she just texted me that her and Jim got sent home on suspension until HR reviews the situation.

They'll likely be losing their jobs in the next few days. She is telling me how I must not care for her otherwise I wouldn't let it get to the point of it costing her a job. I mentioned that this was all her choice and she chose to continue things.


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## turnera

Remain calm. She will try to draw you into an argument so she can blame everything on you. Repeat "I'm trying to save my marriage, which cannot survive a third person." Nothing else. If she tries to draw you in, just offer her a cookie. It makes no better sense than anything else she will say.


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## Affaircare

Exactly! I would recommend picking one phrase and basically saying it over and over, just changing the words a little. 

All along she could have chosen to do the right thing, saved her own job, and ended the affair. So don't let her try to deflect blame onto you (especially if it was so obnoxious that someone else reported it)!!

So remember--it's the Evil Twin talking now. Most of what she says will be to justify why she did what is against her character (namely adultery) and that logic can get pretty twisted. Just remember: Evil Twin...Evil Twin....









And what are you going to repeat? 

"I love you and I know I did do things in our marriage to hurt you. I'm more than willing to work with you to make our marriage loving again. Are you willing to send Jim a No Contact letter, give me access to all your accounts so I can verify your honesty, and commit to working together so we can love each other again?" 

Stay the course! GOOD JOB!!


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## land2634

Her mother seems almost disinterested in the details. I think she is more concerned that her daughter will be out of a job and living with her.

I need to contact her grandparents. Theyre rather hard to catcj, so I'm considering a letter. Knowing them, their immediate reaction will be that I am lying. Should I enclose some form of evidence that verifies the things I am saying. They could end up being my biggest ally here, so I want to get it right.

They're on the road for the summer but stop into town occasionally and check mail. I believe this could be the best way to be sure they know. Thoughts?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wisp

Indeed , some mothers will not pay attention, but is she does loose her job then the finances are going to be tough. Do not assume the best she may still have the job just a warning or shift pattern change.

For the grandparent say you have evidence but its will be unpleasant for them to see and you wish to spare their feelings, they are most welcome to meet you. The text messages are part of the evidence.

You are after their support


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## Wisp

Note the extract from Affaircare’s post

"Exactly! I would recommend picking one phrase and basically saying it over and over, just changing the words a little. "

Something like:

*“I love you, you are in the fog of an affair, if you stop the affair now and come home we can work on our marriage together"
*
Use similar words to everyone who challenges you


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## iamnottheonlyone

When I began the exposure route, in the front of my mind I was calling on these people to reach out to her and convince her to ens the affair and return home. But that is not what it does and is not what the promoters intend. Get it clear in your head that the exposure won't get her to stop. What it will do is stop the secrecy. It brings the affair into the light of day. Now they have to live in the real world. The question then becomes are they right for each other. In most cases they are not. But it will take time for them to find that out. It may take too long for you to wait. As Harley says, Plan A is not a life style. Six months? One year? Start thinking about this.


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## land2634

I have drafted out a letter I'd like to send to her grandparents. I want to get some opinions on it before I sent it. Here goes:

Dear xxx and xxx,

I am writing you this letter to ask for your support during a difficult time. As you likely know by now, xxx and I have been having problems within our marriage, and she decided about a month ago that the best course of action was to leave home. Since then, life has seemed to be a rollercoaster of emotions and hurt feelings.

While I am not sure what details you do know of the circumstances surrounding our current separation, there is a matter that I feel deserves the undivided attention of the people closest to xxx. I love xxx very much, and this was the reason that I took wedding vows with her in front of friends and family a little over two years ago. With that being said, I fully intend to fight for our marriage and what it stands for.

For the past few months, xxx has been having an affair with a coworker named xxx. As hard as that may be to believe, I have no reason to tell you anything untrue. I still have a difficult time believing it myself. The affair started as messaging back and forth, exchanging feelings and regrets at being married due to wanting to be with him. When I confronted my wife with this knowledge, she was very upset and apologized for hurting me. I wanted to work on our marriage, but knew this could not be done without contact with xxx ending. After all, an affair can be like a drug addiction, and as long as she was giving her emotions to him, we could not move forward in our marriage.

Two weeks later, I discovered that xxx was still heavily involved in conversations with xxx. While I do not have evidence of these discussions as I do in the previous instance, I confronted my wife once again to ask her what was going on. This is when she became angry, cursed and yelled at me, and left home.

After she left, I knew we needed to have some time to allow things to cool off. She began contacting me more frequently after a couple of weeks, and on July 7, she indicated that she missed me, and based on our conversations, I felt like we were moving forward and would begin to work things out. She indicated that things between her and xxx had died down due to the way everything had played out to that point. Then she began to be more distant toward me once again.

I have now discovered that xxx and xxx are now carrying on a full-fledged relationship, no longer one just emotional in nature. I have photographic evidence that backs this claim up, but unless you feel a need to see for yourself, I would rather save those images from being planted into your mind.

You may be asking why I am telling you this. The basis is simple. I am not here to make my wife look bad or to get any sort of revenge. The fact remains, I still love my wife more than myself. I intend to fight for my marriage because of what it stands for and what I believe in. I am simply asking for your support, not just for myself, but for both xxx and I and our marriage.

In the Bible, Matthew 19:6 refers to the sanctity of marriage when it says, "So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate."

Furthermore, in Ephesians 5:25, the Bible says, “Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her.”

I have not been the perfect husband to this point in my life, but I truly believe we go through these trials and tribulations to become better people, not only in our marriages, but throughout the entire core of our lives.

I simply ask that you take the information I am giving you very seriously. I love my wife and I am committed to showing her just that. I pray that people such as you will show her the kind of love that would soften her heart while discouraging the affair so that we can work on our marriage.

I also would like to thank you for your support throughout the time I have known my wife. Your thoughts and prayers are very much appreciated during this tough stretch in life. If you need to contact me, feel free to do so. My phone number is (xxx) xxx-xxxx.

Sincerely,

XXXX Land


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## Tanelornpete

Excellent letter - one suggestion: go back through and edit out all the names on your example - also your area code. I may be a paranoid old guy, but I don't trust the internet with much private information at all...


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## land2634

Tanelornpete said:


> Excellent letter - one suggestion: go back through and edit out all the names on your example - also your area code. I may be a paranoid old guy, but I don't trust the internet with much private information at all...


Wow, didn't even think about that. Thanks!


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## Wisp

A good letter, post as soon as.


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## land2634

I've mailed the letter to her grandparents. I'd like to share the same with other family members of hers as well.

I keep trying to remind myself that while she will be very angry with me, and some of these people may be angry with me, that I'm doing the right thing. After all, the people supporting her deserve to know the truth right?


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## turnera

It's no different than a drug addict. You don't hide it - you tell people of her 'illness' so they can help you help her get past it.

Yes, she'll be angry. Go over to marriagebuilders.com and read up about the 'script' she will use - exact same words every other cheater uses: 
I was going to come back, but now you've ruined it.
I'll NEVER choose you now.
You're dragging my name through the mud.
I hate you now.
You're just trying to hurt me.
I can never forgive you.

Just expect it all, stay calm, do NOT respond, let her spit it all out. 

The #1 way to stop an affair is to shine light on it - that way it's no longer exciting, thrilling, fun, sneaky; it now becomes embarrassing. Once that happens, the cheater has to decide if it's worth continuing, if people are going to be whispering about her, or judging her, or disapproving. Plus, if she had any plans for OM, she can no longer just bring him in like they did nothing wrong - he will NEVER be accepted at Thanksgiving Dinner with the family. Bubble burst.


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## iamnottheonlyone

Great letter. I think you should tell them you will be calling.And that you would like to talk with them before they speak with her because they might have some questions. Also forewarn them about the fog and justifications they will hear when they talk to her. You need to beat her to the punch.


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## land2634

turnera said:


> It's no different than a drug addict. You don't hide it - you tell people of her 'illness' so they can help you help her get past it.
> 
> Yes, she'll be angry. Go over to marriagebuilders.com and read up about the 'script' she will use - exact same words every other cheater uses:
> I was going to come back, but now you've ruined it.
> I'll NEVER choose you now.
> You're dragging my name through the mud.
> I hate you now.
> You're just trying to hurt me.
> I can never forgive you.
> 
> Just expect it all, stay calm, do NOT respond, let her spit it all out.
> 
> The #1 way to stop an affair is to shine light on it - that way it's no longer exciting, thrilling, fun, sneaky; it now becomes embarrassing. Once that happens, the cheater has to decide if it's worth continuing, if people are going to be whispering about her, or judging her, or disapproving. Plus, if she had any plans for OM, she can no longer just bring him in like they did nothing wrong - he will NEVER be accepted at Thanksgiving Dinner with the family. Bubble burst.


Funny you should say this... she actually said, "It could have worked out, but now..."

I've truly had an easier time with this in the past couple of days just because it's been blatantly obvious that she is not thinking about her actions. Weird how that works.


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## land2634

In her anger, she has said she intends to file for divorce. While I don't believe she will actually do it, I'd like to plan ahead just in case.

What can I do to prolong the situation if I am indeed served with papers? Can I request court-ordered marriage counseling?


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## turnera

It depends on your state. affaircare is good about finding those things out, if she comes here. Most places, I believe, you don't have to agree to it. I saw one lady keep it postponed for almost 3 years, waiting for his affair to die down!


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## land2634

Ok, I need someone to smack me upside the head and tell me to quit chickening out. There are a few more of her family members I'd like to contact, but I'm hesitating really badly.

Furthermore, Jim lives with his parents still (yeah, he's 28 years old and still lives at home. Surely that will HAVE to be a turn-off at some point right?). I found out exactly where that is, but I do not know the names of his parents. I'd like to contact them, maybe by letter, and inform them that the girl he has been bringing home is already married and he is breaking up a marriage. Again, I'm hesitating. Given the fact that I don't know who they are, I'm hesitant to try to contact them.


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## Wisp

YES YES .. let Jim's parents know as well, even if you drop the letter off. Address it to Mr and Mrs..XXX

You need to beak the affair, make his life unpleasant.

Some parents may choose to support their son , but the messaged to Jim is IT AIN'T OVER BUD I WANT MY WIFE BACK


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## turnera

You need to FIGHT for your marriage. You should be mad as HELL at him, AND at his parents for raising a kid who would do this.

If you do an online search for the address, you should be able to get their name.

By all means, contact everyone who will have an impact.


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## Affaircare

land2634 said:


> In her anger, she has said she intends to file for divorce. While I don't believe she will actually do it, I'd like to plan ahead just in case.
> 
> What can I do to prolong the situation if I am indeed served with papers? Can I request court-ordered marriage counseling?


Hey Land~

A couple of quick notes. Bear in mind as you do this that your goal and focus is one thing: end the affair. It is extremely likely that she will be furious with you and the OM will also be very angry--after all you are taking their dark little secret and shining the light on it. In their affair fantasy, you fade quietly into the background and everyone is "happy for them" that they found someone who "makes them happy" and you are telling people the truth rather than letting them spin the half-truths. And more than anything, you are acting in a decisive way to take away their addiction. Thus, if you envision a drug addict shortly after you tell them you've cut off their supply--yeah. That would be close to the reaction you should expect. And we all know that cutting off the supply will help the addict recover, but to them, all they hear is "You know that thing that makes you feel so good? I took that away."

So her rage, his rage, even some anger from those who have been supporting the affair -- that is all to be expected. What I suggest is that for everything she says, just recognize it as Disloyal Dizzy Talk and try to turn it back around. Here are a few examples: 

Disloyal: "Now I'll NEVER want to return to the marriage" 
Loyal: "You're right, who would want a cheater to return to the marriage? I don't--I want an honest partner in life."

Disloyal: "How could you drag my name through the mud."
Loyal: "You're right. How could you drag your name through the mud by acting like this when you know better?"

Disloyal: "I want a divorce! I'm through with this marriage." 
Loyal: "You're right. A cheater would not honor their vows or keep heir promises. I'm not a cheater, I make the choice to be honest. I'm through with this marriage and I want a better one."

Disloyal: "Why are you blaming (me, OP, work, etc.)?" 
Loyal: "You're right why am I? You can make choices and you can experience the consequence of the choices you make."

Sort of see what I'm doing? They say something all dizzy to justify their affair, and you agree, then turn it around so that what they said applies to THEM. It confuses 'em for a moment. 


Regarding the second part of your question, about prolonging if they do file, I'm going to address that two ways. First, I think I'll write a post here in "Coping with Infidelity" that addresses general stalling techniques for everyone. That way it's not just here in your thread but kind of available for everyone to see. That thread is the "What To Do if The Disloyal Actually Files" thread. Also just remember that often a disloyal will talk about and threaten divorce, but won't actually take the time to file. It is their ultimate threat--"Do what I want and let me continue my affair...or else!"

Second, for you specifically, I will point out that a divorce RARELY if ever takes 1-2 months. What she's thinking is... (of course) Affair Fantasy. Every state that I know of has a minimum of a 90 day wait and some have up to a year! And it would take 90 days IF, AND ONLY IF, both parties were cooperative and agreed. As an example, in my instance my state was 90 days and by then my ex had moved out for 2 years, was with his mistresses and would not reconcile, and we pretty much agreed on all but a very few things. Ours was fairly fast and it was 120 days because by then we were 2 years of trying to work it out! If there is any disagreement or non-disclosure, I've seen divorces that take years literally. There's a lady here on TAM, 827Aug, whose divorce has taken years because it was complicated with a business and other assets (plus stalling). Sooooo...her "fantasy" of a couple months is so she can legitimize her relationship with OM. She and OM can get a love shack together and set up and play house. It has nothing whatsoever to do with reality! According to national divorce statistics, the average length of time it takes to finalize divorce settlements and other proceedings is one year in the United States.

So regarding divorce my thought would be pretty much "Stay the Course" and I would advise that until the ink is dry on the paper. This is not so much to deny that a divorce is happening--I would also suggest that you take reasonable steps to protect yourself and your family and assets from the destructive and unclear thinking of a disloyal!--but rather to remain consistent and so your own conscience is clear that you did all you could to save the marriage and honor your vow. The fact is that sometimes a disloyal hardens their heart and they are determined to do what they know is wrong, and you can't stop them from doing it! What you can do though is sleep easy knowing that you did not enable it or encourage it.


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## land2634

Just wanted to update everyone.

On Saturday evening, Jim tried to call me. Apparently his parents received their letter letting them know about their son's actions. For those who don't remember, Jim is 28 and still lives with his parents. Some prince charming, eh?

In any case, I didn't answer the phone call. I have no use for arguing with him, and I saw no reason to get into a yelling match. Nothing I can say or do to him is going to change his mentality, so I'm just staying the course and working on ending the affair.

My wife called me later in the night and told me she has applied for legal aid. My first thought was, "The government will pay for a divorce?!" My second thought was that if she is waiting on some sort of state-appointed attorney or whatever, the wait will take some time. I believe that alone may prolong her filing, if that is indeed what she intends to do.

I got a phone call from her this afternoon telling me I need to go by the bank and sign some paperwork to get my name off of the car loan (which would also relinquish the title to her from my understanding). Should I agree to do this? My gut is saying wait until any potential divorce proceedings, but I'm not seeing where I would be accomplishing anything by not doing what she asks in this case.

After being angry the last few times we had talked before this weekend, she was civil in our conversations recently. On Saturday, she was bawling asking why I was blaming Jim for everything. My response to her was that while I acknowledge that I lacked in meeting some of her important needs, her current affair is keeping us from working on our marriage.

She told me that she doesn't like me, much less love me, which was somewhat expected after spending some time on this forum. She told me that she "has no friends left" because I have caused them to all alienate from her. Given that I was with some of our best friends (another married couple) when she called, I knew this was not true. I mentioned to her that she has plenty of people around her that love her, but just because they don't support what she is doing does not mean they hate her.

Before hanging up, I reminded her that I love her and that when she is willing to give up her affair, I will be more than willing to work on our marriage. She just said that our marriage is over and said bye before hanging up.

Again, most of this I expected, so it hasn't caught me off guard too much, but I still have a surreal feeling that leaves me wondering if this is really happening. In any case, I press on with the hope of saving my marriage, but also trying to prepare myself for the scenario in which I may be forced to move forward without my wife. The gym has definitely been my friend. I've lost 30 pounds since June 1, both from my appetite lacking for a few weeks and spending a few days a week at the gym. I feel light on my feet again, and I'm considering joining a softball team or basketball league of some sort.

I'm also a big fan of racquetball, and a good friend of mine will be finishing up his MBA at Texas Tech next weekend and is moving back to our hometown to take a job, so we will likely be hitting the courts fairly frequently. I'm very thankful for the support group I have around me, both in my personal life and on this board. You're all appreciated and have helped me push forward during this tough stretch in my life.


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## iamnottheonlyone

I just want to let you know much of what your wife has said this week, my wife said. The consequences of the affair. We have had that discussion about the OM. My responce was harsher. I called his dirt and scum. She said he was a niceguy and a true friend. I told her a true friend would have tried to save their friend's marriage not break it up. 
My wife said the same thing as yours about her friends. I told her she elected to ignore them and their support. I told her they are still her friends. (She has contacted a couple of them recently.) So the pattern is followed. We know that the affair must end to begin a recovery. There are consequences and hopefully they will weigh on our spouses relationships with the OMs.


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## land2634

Last night was an interesting and revealing night.

I was with a friend of mine at the gym and I started getting messages from my wife's friend from work, who I'll just call Janet. Janet started by asking how I was doing. I responded that I'm just keeping busy and staying occupied. She said, "Well, I bet you don't have it as bad as your wife though!"

I paused a moment to think about whether or not I wanted to take the bait, and decided to ask, "How exactly does she have it so bad?"

She said, "Oh, you know, just that her credit is destroyed and some really childish things like you checking her Facebook chats and being jealous of a guy friend, you know."

I responded, "Hmm... I'm not sure what's going on with her credit, that must be something she did after she left home."

Janet began to get angry: "Oh, don't act like you don't know. You've done this to her. Your jealousy and controlling ways didn't help either. I'm gonna have to stop talking or I'm not going to be very nice."

I calmly said, "Janet, I'm really sorry she's been lying to you. This is why I tried to talk to you a couple of weeks ago when you ignored my phone calls. My wife has been having an affair with Jim for the past few months. It's been building and building, and this is why I was digging for the information that I now have, not because I was trying to be controlling. When things started to get blatantly suspicious, yeah I dug deeper, and while I initially felt guilty, that feeling went away once I found what I found."

Janet said, "She has been loyal to you to the very end! She always spoke so highly of you, and you just ran her off with your little digging. She is not and never has been in an affair. There is nothing but friendship been her and Jim."

"Well, Janet, then why is it that I have a picture of them kissing and holding hands?"

It took about 5 minutes, but she finally responded, "Yeah, I'll believe that when I see it, and I'll be the first to apologize to you."

After I e-mailed her two of the pictures, she was beyond apologetic. She told me she was very sorry how much she had disrespected me. I told her that, in my mind, there was no harm done between us (she had been someone that was somewhat of a mutual friend previously because I had worked with her in the past) because I felt that her reactions were based out of the lies my wife had been telling to all of her friends. I told her that I am still fighting for my marriage and that I hope people like herself will still love my wife without enabling the affair.

I think Janet is very torn right now. She has previously been friends with both Jim and my wife, and now she has found out that they've both been living a secret life while fronting something completely different to their friends, such as herself.

From what I can gather, many people in their workplace are starting to put together what is really going on. The secret aspect of the relationship is falling apart, and I'll be interested to see what happens from there. I truly hope her friend informs the rest of the people in their group of girlfriends what is really going on, especially since they're all friends with Jim as well. I'm somewhat amazed that my wife and Jim have been able to keep this from these friends for as long as they have. I have tried to expose to these people a few times but many of them don't want to hear what I have to say. Maybe the one friend that really knows will be able to get them to listen now.


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## turnera

Excellent!

Remind me, did you expose to their HR and President?


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## land2634

I called her general manager, he never returned my phone calls.

I called the HR department and they would not even speak to me because I'm not a current employee 

My friend that still works there called HR and informed them. They're supposed to be calling him back any day now to let him know if it's something they will even pursue or if it will just be dropped.

I'm just going to be honest, her place of employment is only one store in the largest consumer electronics company around. That should probably give you a clue as to where she works. With that being said, any tips for maybe getting someone to push forward with this in the HR or corporate office?

Also, she is wanting me to go by the bank to sign some paperwork to get my name off of the car. Am I going to be causing any harm to myself by doing this? As far as I can tell, it will take the responsibility of the payment completely off of me, but I could be wrong.


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## Affaircare

Oh LAND! Good job with the friend! This is exactly why we tell loyal spouses to expose--because look how many people have heard half-truths about you and spin on their affair! Now that "Janet" knows the truth, I bet she is going to be pretty mad at both your wife and Jim for the lying, for using her against you, and for being used to enable an affair when that's not the kind of person she is. 

I have to say, I am very proud of the man you are becoming and the way you're handling yourself. 

You asked: 


> Also, she is wanting me to go by the bank to sign some paperwork to get my name off of the car. Am I going to be causing any harm to myself by doing this? As far as I can tell, it will take the responsibility of the payment completely off of me, but I could be wrong.


Here's my thought. I don't see any harm in removing your name off the car. From a finance point of view, it would disentangle your responsibility for her payment habits. From an affair point of view, it will not make the affair easier or harder, and she does need a way to get to work (if she still has a job). However, before you sign ANYTHING I would strongly advise at least reading it and possibly saying, "I'd like to run this past my attorney" and then have a buddy who's a lawyer read it over to be sure she's not pulling some stunt.  

Be coolish about saying "run this past my attorney." Just say that and don't expound on it at all. It will politely let her know that you do intend to protect yourself and your family.


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## land2634

I'm not going to lie... I feel like I'm reaching the point where I almost don't want things to work out now.

I'm not sure if this is a feeling that will pass, but I'm just feeling indifferent to it all anymore. The hurt and lies that she's put me through are just building and I just don't know if I can care for much longer.

I'll always care about her, but I'm starting to feel like if I continue down this road, I'm going to waste a good portion of my life ignoring everything in the present trying to save something that may not ever work out.


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## turnera

I would find a lawyer friend to send a letter to their corporate office HR department - on his letterhead.

btw, my daughter works for that company, and I can tell you that their management differs greatly from store to store. You may want to try to find the person in charge of that district.


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## land2634

turnera said:


> I would find a lawyer friend to send a letter to their corporate office HR department - on his letterhead.
> 
> btw, my daughter works for that company, and I can tell you that their management differs greatly from store to store. You may want to try to find the person in charge of that district.


Yeah, I worked there for a couple of years in college, and I can say that some of the top management in this particular store is very loose.


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## bestplayer

turnera said:


> I would find a lawyer friend to send a letter to their corporate office HR department - on his letterhead.
> 
> btw, my daughter works for that company, and I can tell you that their management differs greatly from store to store. You may want to try to find the person in charge of that district.


with due respect turnera , I think having a lawyer send a letter to their corporate office HR department will be going too much overboard . Exposure is good to some extent but informing all the outsiders of her actions will only make him appear as too desperate IMO. 

best of luck


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## turnera

Possibly, but you can bet it'll get opened and read. His lawyer friend could just say "I am sending this for land, who is dealing with ..."


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## Feelingalone

Take her to the mat Land -- if you have a lawyer friend have them enlighten upper management. They risk a lawsuit from you for providing an environment which condones such adulterous actions from their married (not to each other) workers. 

Don't hold back. I did -- didn't get me anywhere. She is already pissed -- so what. You are doing great. Keep the faith.

Peace.


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## land2634

My thing at this point is I have literally lost all desire to even work on things. I'm tired of trying to argue with her friends when they contact me, I'm tired of arguing with her, and most of all, she's been so hateful to me that even though I expected it, it's just taken away any desire I had to work on our marriage.

I have an appointment with my doctor tomorrow afternoon to see about some anxiety medication. I didn't think I would have to go to this length, but it's gotten to the point where I'm letting stress and anxiety build, and the smallest thing ends up setting me off into a day-long fit of depression and anger, if that makes sense.

I'm really struggling with trying not to be angry. I'm angry because I feel like I spent the last 7 years of my life revolving everything around someone who likely didn't care about me as much as her own happiness in any given moment.


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## iamnottheonlyone

I understand entirely. If you can even that keel you might be more willing to work on it. I have checked with a couple of other people, on here and with friends, about the low level anxiety that I have been having. It will pass but it coud take its toll before it does. Those who have taken medication found that it helped greatly with few side affects. If I wasn't so busy now I would go talk to my doctor. The only other way I could see lowering my anxiety level is to associate with women who find me desireable. That is a dangerous route but I am thinking of it as a means of wvoiding medication. There are a number of single women around who have indicated interest..and I am not suggesting sexual or emotional interest on my part. Just some companionship to relieve the axiety..to feel wanted. What do you think?


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## land2634

iamnottheonlyone said:


> I understand entirely. If you can even that keel you might be more willing to work on it. I have checked with a couple of other people, on here and with friends, about the low level anxiety that I have been having. It will pass but it coud take its toll before it does. Those who have taken medication found that it helped greatly with few side affects. If I wasn't so busy now I would go talk to my doctor. The only other way I could see lowering my anxiety level is to associate with women who find me desireable. That is a dangerous route but I am thinking of it as a means of wvoiding medication. There are a number of single women around who have indicated interest..and I am not suggesting sexual or emotional interest on my part. Just some companionship to relieve the axiety..to feel wanted. What do you think?


My problem is and always has been that I tend to have a low level of confidence around people in general. That isn't to say I don't like myself or anything like that, but it wouldn't surprise me if my doctor assesses that I have social anxiety disorder, which both my dad and brother have been diagnosed with.

I'm not really sure what I'm supposed to be doing or feeling at this point. I truly feel like the marriage is as good as done. I've lost the desire to even fight the process. I thought I could stand strong, but now I'm asking myself if it's even worth it in the end. Even if she were to come back, we would still have a long road ahead as far as repairing the marriage, and my guess is by then, years will have passed and I'll end up resenting her and myself for waiting around for so long.


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## turnera

Have you read up about Plan B, from marriagebuilders?


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## iamnottheonlyone

There is nothing easy about any of this. You have had aome great advice. Most times it is hard to implement. We are in so much pain and our confidence is destroyed. It is all so unattractive. We become unappealing. All of which gets us further down. If you can not work with Plan A then Plan B or moving on are the likely scenarios. Plan A does not stand a chance IMO if you can't hold it together. On the other hand, maybe you are just not ready for Plan A yet. You are still struggling with the pain. It will fade. But as I told you earlier, there can be some really annoying background noise. If you need the medication take it. Then give it some time. Depending on which meds you take, it could be a couple weeks before they have their desired effects. You should be improving emotionally and physically during this time while you also improve from the medication. You know the mantra: patience, patience, patience. I don't talk divorce. Okay.


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## land2634

I have considered Plan B. The only problem I can see with writing a letter to her like this is that she will likely think, "So? I already told you earlier this week I never want to speak to you again."

Obviously, words spoken out of anger, but hopefully it makes sense what I'm saying. The doctor put me on Celexa, so I'm giving that a shot. I don't really want to talk divorce, but it's more because I'm just tired of it all as opposed to wanting to fight for my marriage. I almost feel as if the feelings that I would be trying to save by moving to Plan B are indeed already gone. I still love her, I just don't want anything to do with her right now.


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## turnera

You write the letter for yourself. To know that you still have your dignity and know what you can and can't live with.

But not until you simply are willing to walk away from her (or _have _to) for the rest of your life.


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## Initfortheduration

I think you are doing great. Maybe not emotionally but IN PRACTICE. You are basing your life in reality. Your eyes are open. I would agree with you that it may be far better for you to move on. It is not just the affair. It is that she has trashed your reputation and trash talked you to all your friends. She has shown contempt for you. This friend who confronted you sounds like her eyes have been opened. I would continue to shine a light on your WW behavior, not out of malice, but because you are entitled to be judged (and your WW) based on the truth. Good luck.


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## land2634

Initfortheduration said:


> I think you are doing great. Maybe not emotionally but IN PRACTICE. You are basing your life in reality. Your eyes are open. I would agree with you that it may be far better for you to move on. It is not just the affair. It is that she has trashed your reputation and trash talked you to all your friends. She has shown contempt for you. This friend who confronted you sounds like her eyes have been opened. I would continue to shine a light on your WW behavior, not out of malice, but because you are entitled to be judged (and your WW) based on the truth. Good luck.


Well, that's the thing. The friend contacted me again a few days later attacking me again. She said the picture was only from 2 weeks ago, after my wife had left me. Apparently you can just denounce a marriage and it be over? If only it were that easy with bankruptcy and things of that nature. What if you just walked outside, "I declare bankruptcy", and it was all over? How easy that would be...

Unfortunately, it seems her friends have a different view on marriage than the view I grew up with, and it is not forcing my wife to re-think anything.


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## Initfortheduration

I think you have done everything right from the start (as right as this situation could be). You need to move on with your life. You have a lot to offer. You have no children. And you have probably learned a lot. Best of luck.


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## land2634

It's been nearly a week since I've had any form of contact with my wife. On Friday evening, I headed to the driving range. Her best friend's (or at least her best friend now since her longtime best friend won't speak to her) house is 2 blocks away from the driving range, and I noticed that both my wife's and Jim's cars were parked out front. It simply amazes me that her best friend knows what is going on and is supporting it.

I'm sure she's heard all kinds of terrible things that "forced" my wife to her affair, but even still, marriage is marriage. Many of my wife's friends seem to believe that it's ok for her to carry on this relationship because she left me, even if we are still married. What they're conveniently looking past is that the affair is WHY she left and it was going on well before she left.

My friend that works with her received a call back from the HR department, who said that there is nothing they can or will do about the situation. It seems as if the general manager has swept it under the rug. Little does he know, there is a battle brewing in his own workplace. On one side, you have my wife, Jim, and their girlfriends, and on the other end, you have a group of my friends, their friends, and a few married co-workers that can't believe someone would disrespect a marriage to this end. Times like these prove what my wife doesn't seem to understand: her choices affect so much more than just our marriage and her happiness; they affect our families, friends, and even our workplaces.

Her best friend, the one that was the maid of honor in our wedding, has backed me 100% since she found out what was going on. She has even gone as far as telling me that I deserve better, and that she wouldn't blame me if I stop waiting on my wife and just move on to find what I deserve. This is someone that my wife literally knew when they were 3 years old! They grew up and got into trouble together all the way through high school!

Now, I'm not one to say what I do and don't deserve, because the truth is I probably don't deserve anything, but I am getting to a point where I realize that I DON'T deserve to be cheated on, I DON'T deserve to be asked to cover up for her infidelity, and I DON'T deserve the amount of hate that came from my wife. I've spent a lot less time thinking about her lately, so in a way, I'm guessing that's good.

My biggest issue at this point is I'm not sure which direction I should go. I don't know if I should be still working on a Plan A, if I should move on to Plan B, or if I should simply just accept that it may really be over, which may include Plan B. Any thoughts?


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## Tanelornpete

Plan B first - take it one step at a time. At any time along the way, your wife could come to her senses, and there really is no rush to end things.


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## turnera

You may also wish to look into legal avenues regarding their workplace. It's worth looking into at least.


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## land2634

turnera said:


> You may also wish to look into legal avenues regarding their workplace. It's worth looking into at least.


Would you think this would be something just about any attorney would be able to help with, or do I need to check into a specific type of attorney? Forgive me for sounding dumb, but I've honestly never had to deal with any sort of legal issues to this point in my life.


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## Tanelornpete

> Would you think this would be something just about any attorney would be able to help with, or do I need to check into a specific type of attorney? Forgive me for sounding dumb, but I've honestly never had to deal with any sort of legal issues to this point in my life.


The potential risk is a sexual harassment case, so you'd want to look for someone who works in that area.


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## Affaircare

Title VII of the Civil Rights Act is a FEDERAL law against sexual harassment which is applicable to any company with 15 employees or more. It reads: 

_"It is unlawful to harass a person (an applicant or employee) because of that person’s sex. Harassment can include “sexual harassment” or *unwelcome sexual advances, requests for sexual favors, and other verbal or physical harassment of a sexual nature*.

Harassment does not have to be of a sexual nature, however, and can include offensive remarks about a person’s sex. For example, it is illegal to harass a woman by making offensive comments about women in general.

Both victim and the harasser can be either a woman or a man, and the victim and harasser can be the same sex.

Although the law doesn’t prohibit simple teasing, offhand comments, or isolated incidents that are not very serious, *harassment is illegal when it is so frequent or severe that it creates a hostile or offensive work environment or when it results in an adverse employment decision* (such as the victim being fired or demoted).

The harasser can be the victim's supervisor, a supervisor in another area, a co-worker, or someone who is not an employee of the employer, such as a client or customer."​_
Your wife may say that she did not mind or whatever, but as her spouse YOU didn't want them so the sexual advances were unwanted. Furthermore, if the company has been notified and will do nothing about it, you can report it to the EEOC (Equal Employment Opportunity Commission) and they will investigate. Here are their Title 29 CHAPTER XIV PART 1604 GUIDELINES ON DISCRIMINATION BECAUSE OF SEX. Please note that 1604.11 specifically addresses sexual harassment and says: "(d) With respect to conduct between fellow employees, an employer is responsible for acts of sexual harassment in the workplace where the employer (or its agents or supervisory employees) knows or should have known of the conduct, unless it can show that it took immediate and appropriate corrective action." They were notified and not only did they not take immediate corrective action...they have informed you they will do nothing about it!

This is classic "hostile work environment" sexual harassment, which is defined as "A hostile work environment arises *when a co-worker* or supervisor, *engaging in unwelcome and inappropriate sexually based behavior, renders the workplace* atmosphere intimidating, *hostile, or offensive*." This paper on Sexual Harassment in the Workplace: a Primer may be helpful to explain. According to the EEOC, employers are usually deemed to know of sexual harassment if it is: (1) openly practiced in the workplace; (2) well-known among employees; or (3) brought to the employer's notice by a victim's filing a charge. I would say all three of those are met, wouldn't you?

Thus I would suggest contacting an Employment Law attorney specializing in Sexual Harassment in your state. You can try FindLaw--it's fairly dependable. In addition to the FEDERAL law, some states have additional laws regarding sexual harassment in the workplace so you will want someone from your state who can take this case.


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## land2634

Affaircare said:


> Title VII of the Civil Rights Act is a FEDERAL law against sexual harassment which is applicable to any company with 15 employees or more. It reads:
> 
> _"It is unlawful to harass a person (an applicant or employee) because of that person’s sex. Harassment can include “sexual harassment” or *unwelcome sexual advances, requests for sexual favors, and other verbal or physical harassment of a sexual nature*.
> 
> Harassment does not have to be of a sexual nature, however, and can include offensive remarks about a person’s sex. For example, it is illegal to harass a woman by making offensive comments about women in general.
> 
> Both victim and the harasser can be either a woman or a man, and the victim and harasser can be the same sex.
> 
> Although the law doesn’t prohibit simple teasing, offhand comments, or isolated incidents that are not very serious, *harassment is illegal when it is so frequent or severe that it creates a hostile or offensive work environment or when it results in an adverse employment decision* (such as the victim being fired or demoted).
> 
> The harasser can be the victim's supervisor, a supervisor in another area, a co-worker, or someone who is not an employee of the employer, such as a client or customer."​_
> Your wife may say that she did not mind or whatever, but as her spouse YOU didn't want them so the sexual advances were unwanted. Furthermore, if the company has been notified and will do nothing about it, you can report it to the EEOC (Equal Employment Opportunity Commission) and they will investigate. Here are their Title 29 CHAPTER XIV PART 1604 GUIDELINES ON DISCRIMINATION BECAUSE OF SEX. Please note that 1604.11 specifically addresses sexual harassment and says: "(d) With respect to conduct between fellow employees, an employer is responsible for acts of sexual harassment in the workplace where the employer (or its agents or supervisory employees) knows or should have known of the conduct, unless it can show that it took immediate and appropriate corrective action." They were notified and not only did they not take immediate corrective action...they have informed you they will do nothing about it!
> 
> This is classic "hostile work environment" sexual harassment, which is defined as "A hostile work environment arises *when a co-worker* or supervisor, *engaging in unwelcome and inappropriate sexually based behavior, renders the workplace* atmosphere intimidating, *hostile, or offensive*." This paper on Sexual Harassment in the Workplace: a Primer may be helpful to explain. According to the EEOC, employers are usually deemed to know of sexual harassment if it is: (1) openly practiced in the workplace; (2) well-known among employees; or (3) brought to the employer's notice by a victim's filing a charge. I would say all three of those are met, wouldn't you?
> 
> Thus I would suggest contacting an Employment Law attorney specializing in Sexual Harassment in your state. You can try FindLaw--it's fairly dependable. In addition to the FEDERAL law, some states have additional laws regarding sexual harassment in the workplace so you will want someone from your state who can take this case.


So, just to be clear, this is different than "Alienation of Affection" laws that are still upheld in states like North Carolina, but not states like Texas (which is where we live)?

This all seems very interesting to me and seems as if it could be taken very seriously and really make Jim and my wife consider their actions even more closely.


----------



## land2634

Also, I found this part to be pretty interesting:

_"With respect to conduct between
fellow employees, an employer is responsible
for acts of sexual harassment
in the workplace where the employer
(or its agents or supervisory employees)
knows or should have known of the
conduct, unless it can show that it
took immediate and appropriate corrective
action."_


----------



## land2634

It has become increasingly clear that my wife's friends are supporting her despite knowing the truth. They are of the mindset that she deserves to be "happy" no matter what. No wonder it's been so easy for my wife to continue this relationship!

I haven't had contact with my wife in almost 2 weeks, and with everyone supporting her, I don't really want much to do with her. I'm getting to the point of admitting defeat, but don't know if this is what I should be doing. 

It's really hard to know what I should do next, even with steps laid out in front of me.


----------



## turnera

Who else knows?


----------



## NotJustMe

land2634 said:


> It has become increasingly clear that my wife's friends are supporting her despite knowing the truth. They are of the mindset that she deserves to be "happy" no matter what. No wonder it's been so easy for my wife to continue this relationship!
> 
> I haven't had contact with my wife in almost 2 weeks, and with everyone supporting her, I don't really want much to do with her. I'm getting to the point of admitting defeat, but don't know if this is what I should be doing.
> 
> It's really hard to know what I should do next, even with steps laid out in front of me.


There is absolutely no shame in drawing the line and saying enough is enough, if that is how you feel. You've put up one hell of a fight for your marriage, so if you are feeling like it is time for you to wipe the relationship slate clean and move on, then more power to you. 

It takes two people working diligently to make a marriage work; you've been doing your part, but you can't force your wife to hold up her end.


----------



## land2634

Most of her family knows, her friends know, my friends and family know, and word has gotten around the workplace and those people know.

My wife has ceased talking to a couple of her former best friends due to them knowing and not supporting her. She has truly surrounded herself with a support group who knows what is going on. With so many of them, it's made it incredibly easy for her to continue the affair.

I know it's been said, but it's likely Plan B time. Maybe in my mind I've been in Plan B mode for at least a week now. I haven't tried to contact my wife or even had a desire to do so. Part of me almost wishes she'd go ahead and serve me with papers so we can get it over with, but then the other part of me still wants to fight for what I know to be right and what I promised to uphold for the rest of my life.


----------



## turnera

Writing the Plan B letter will be a good catharsis for you, if you _are_ ready for it. You deserve better than this.


----------



## land2634

Today has been rather interesting. As I said, I've been sitting in the background letting this all die down.

Turns out, her friends have reacted very negatively to the exposure. Her best friend's husband has now started a crusade to convince people that I have physically abused my wife. Obviously, that sort of accusation had to have come from my wife.

At this point, I'm almost considering filing for divorce myself. I'm honestly ready for it to be over, and even if my wife came to me now and said she wanted to work on our marriage, I'm not sure, with everything that has happened, it would be worth it or could ever be repaired.


----------



## turnera

As someone who has experienced a smear campaign involving alleged abuse, and who was advised to sue to stop that campaign, I am here to tell you that you need to go to your lawyer YESTERDAY and present that man with a cease and desist order. 

I ignored the advice. By the time the rumor mill finished with us, 3 or 4 years later, my husband went from being 'an abuser' to 'a child molester on the prowl' - because I didn't want to sue my own stepmother to stop the allegations. We ended up having to move; people pulled their kids out of the neighborhood pool when we came, and left; at annual meetings, people stood up and said they were going to weed out the molesters; we were kicked out of Indian Princess because the other dads wouldn't let their daughters camp if my husband went; I had to give up my dream job because I had to find a higher paying job. 

Serve the guy with papers. Don't do what I did.


----------



## iamnottheonlyone

You might be in my position now. You have to decide if you want to wait it out. I am in PLan A. Spinning my wheels. Or you can skip it and go to Plan B. Then hang in there with no contact. 
Lastly you can throw in the towel and either divorce her or wait until she divorces you or comes back.
I can see you are fed up. You need to give yourself a break.


----------



## land2634

It's been awhile since I've posted.

I still haven't spoken to my wife since last week. I've held off on sending her a Plan B letter to this point. I've sort of felt myself drifting back into a desire to save the marriage, but with an obvious understanding that it may not happen.

I'm not really sure what I could try to do to initiate contact with my wife. I'd like to see if anyone has any ideas. I've thought about getting some sort of humorous card or something to make her laugh as well as let her know I'm thinking about her. I'm just not sure what is reasonable/acceptable at this point.


----------



## turnera

http://www.ediblearrangements.com/Default.aspx

People can't resist 'em.


----------



## land2634

turnera said:


> http://www.ediblearrangements.com/Default.aspx
> 
> People can't resist 'em.


Very nice. We don't live anywhere close to one of their locations, but it looks like they can ship dipped fruit. She loves white chocolate strawberries, so I'm thinking I'll have some of those sent her way. Thanks for the recommendation!


----------



## land2634

How's this for the card message that goes along with it?

_Wife,

Just wanted you to know I'm thinking of you and love you.

Land2634_


----------



## turnera

Perfect.


----------



## land2634

I placed the order for the white chocolate strawberries today. She should be receiving them tomorrow.

I've noticed something rather funny recently. Her workplace has been scheduling her and Jim at the same time, as well as days off. Not only are they saying it isn't their problem, they've made it a point to make the problem worse! The fog seems to be engulfing everyone.

Either way, I've been able to keep myself busy for the most part. The Celexa seems to be doing the trick as far as helping to control my anxiety. I spend a lot of time in the gym now. A good friend of mine has moved back into town and we've played a lot of racquetball. I won't lie, I think my wife would be impressed at the kind of physical shape I've gotten myself into over the past couple of months.


----------



## turnera

Remind me what happened with you and her work? You talked to them? And then?


----------



## Affaircare

land2634 said:


> ... I've noticed something rather funny recently. Her workplace has been scheduling her and Jim at the same time, as well as days off. Not only are they saying it isn't their problem, they've made it a point to make the problem worse! The fog seems to be engulfing everyone.


I believe this thread may be helpful to you, land. It's here in the Coping With Infidelity section, on a thread "I just don't understand... (long)" post #67. 

In summary, rather than sending this note JUST to the local company and manager, I would send this with a copy to the regional manager and corporate Vice President, and see if that doesn't burst the shaningans going on there: 


"This letter is to formally inform (boss' name and position) and the company, (company name), that unwanted sexual contact has been occurring at the workplace and that company property and/or time may have been used to foster unwanted sexual contact. The unwanted contact is an ongoing workplace affair between (his name) and (her name) at (this location). Local management was notified on (date) and since that time they have refused to take any kind of corrective action and have subsequently scheduled the two to work on the same dates and times and given them the same days off to encourage the ongoing, unwanted sexual contact. 

Since Title 29 CHAPTER XIV PART 1604 GUIDELINES ON DISCRIMINATION BECAUSE OF SEX says that: "(d) With respect to conduct between fellow employees, an employer is responsible for acts of sexual harassment in the workplace where the employer (or its agents or supervisory employees) knows or should have known of the conduct, unless it can show that it took immediate and appropriate corrective action" as the spouse of one of the involved parties I'm asking that (company) corporate put an end to this classic "hostile work environment" sexual contact. Please use this date as the date the company was notified and knows for a fact of the unwanted sexual harassment. I am not a lawyer but I believe the company needs to know that due to the conduct of these two on work property, and the ongoing lack of immediate and appropriate corrective action by the local management, puts the company at risk and vulnerable to a sexual harassment lawsuit. Can you please inform me of how you intend to address, and correct this situation?"


----------



## Affaircare

By the way here's a song for you:

He Ain't the Leaving Kind

You may want to look up the lyrics. He'd never walk away.


----------



## land2634

I just got an e-mail from my wife.

_Can you please email me my resume it should be on your computer or one of your flash drives. Thank you for the strawberries but its kinda hard to believe you love me so dont send me anything else.

Wife_

Besides sending her resume to her, I'm trying to think of the best possible reply.


----------



## Tanelornpete

How about "Actually, I sent you them because I like you, and I knew you would like them."


----------



## Affaircare

land2634 said:


> _Can you please email me my resume it should be on your computer or one of your flash drives. Thank you for the strawberries but its kinda hard to believe you love me so dont send me anything else._


How about: 

"LOL I kinda find it hard to believe I love you too, but I do...and mostly I was just thinking of you and thought they were something you would really like. Soooo...were they good?" 

I don't think it would be smart to "argue" with her that you want to send her things because she'll take that as you not listening to her. On the other hand if you actually listen to her and stop sending her things, you confirm that you don't really love her!  So just skip that part for now and keep it lighthearted, honestly as if you are her friend.


----------



## land2634

Affaircare said:


> How about:
> 
> "LOL I kinda find it hard to believe I love you too, but I do...and mostly I was just thinking of you and thought they were something you would really like. Soooo...were they good?"
> 
> I don't think it would be smart to "argue" with her that you want to send her things because she'll take that as you not listening to her. On the other hand if you actually listen to her and stop sending her things, you confirm that you don't really love her!  So just skip that part for now and keep it lighthearted, honestly as if you are her friend.


So to make sure I'm following what you're saying, I should continue what I'm doing while keeping it very subtle and friendly? Obviously I won't have someone waiting outside her doorstep to serenade her at every moment, but there are times I'd like to be sure she knows I'm thinking of her.


----------



## land2634

I am about to respond to her e-mail from yesterday. I didn't want to respond immediately so that she gets the idea that I am living my life without her and not spending all my time waiting for the slightest contact from her. Here is what I have as my response:
_
Wife,
I got your e-mail about your resume. It took me a bit, but I finally found it and attached it to this e-mail. Let me know if you need any help getting it formatted or anything. I’d be glad to help.
I’m glad the strawberries made it to you. You may find it hard to believe that I love you, and to be honest, I find it hard to believe myself sometimes, but I do. Either way, the main reason I sent them was because I was thinking about you and know you like them. Let me know if you need anything.
_


----------



## turnera

Sounds perfect to me.


----------



## Affaircare

Psalm 20 (New International Version)

1 May the LORD answer you when you are in distress; 
may the name of the God of Jacob protect you.
2 May he send you help from the sanctuary 
and grant you support from Zion.

3 May he remember all your sacrifices 
and accept your burnt offerings. 
_Selah_

4 May he give you the desire of your heart 
and make all your plans succeed.

5 We will shout for joy when you are victorious 
and will lift up our banners in the name of our God. 
May the LORD grant all your requests.

6 Now I know that the LORD saves his anointed; 
he answers him from his holy heaven 
with the saving power of his right hand.

7 Some trust in chariots and some in horses, 
but we trust in the name of the LORD our God.

8 They are brought to their knees and fall, 
but we rise up and stand firm.

9 O LORD, save the king! 
Answer us when we call!


----------



## land2634

Thanks a ton. It's nice to be reminded of encouraging words from time to time.

I haven't had contact with my wife since responding to her e-mail about her resume about a week ago. I'm not entirely sure where to go from here. I know I need to have patience, but I feel like I should be doing something proactive. I probably just need to be more patient.


----------



## land2634

I just saw my wife for the first time in over a month. When I walked out of work for lunch, went to get in my car, I heard my name. She was across the street at the library. I'm not sure how long she had been waiting there because I took my lunch later than usual.

Before she left, we had gotten a student loan consolidation in process for her. Turns out, they just finalized it and needed some more paperwork. Since I had handled most of it previously, she was unsure of what to do. Also, since we are still married, the paperwork called for some of my info. I told her I would fill them out and make sure they were sent in for her.

She started talking about being worried about me cutting her off of the health insurance. Her rheumatoid arthritis has flared up so bad that one of her ankles is keeping her from walking well. I told her I will not cut her off of the insurance because I care for her too much to leave her without medical care should she need it. She asked if I could get the crutches for her. I will have those for her this evening. She started tearing up pretty good at this point.

She talked a little about how her living situation with her mom isn't good. I think reality may be hitting her a little. I could be wrong, but I think she wanted to see me. Jim isn't working today and she could have been hanging out with him, and she definitely has other people she could ask to explain the paperwork to her. I just tried to stay positive and focus on her needs in the little bit of time we were together. I broke down after I drove away because it's hard to see her physically hurting like she is, but at least felt confident while I was around her. We'll see what happens from here.


----------



## turnera

Sounds good to me, too.


----------



## land2634

I've prepared an e-mail that I wanted to run across here before sending.

_Wife,

It was good to see you today. That form is in the mail. Let me know if they send you anything else and I'll help you with it. I'm here should you need anything, so please do let me know.

I got your crutches out of the storage shed earlier. I can get them to you as early as this evening if you aren't working. I'll be heading to the gym for a few hours so I'll be out and about.

I'm really sorry that you're arthritis is flaring right now. Don't worry about the health insurance. I won't be taking you off of that; you need to keep up with your medical coverage. How are your lungs doing?

Please take care of yourself and let me know if there is anything I can do to help you out. I love you.

land2634_


----------



## Wisp

Nice one


----------



## land2634

I just got a response from her:

_Thank you for doing those papers. I'm working but I can get them after I get off. My lungs don't bother me anymore its just spreading all over my body again and I don't know how much worse its going to be this time. I know its bc of stress. Just please don't cut me off the insurance and tell me when I need to give you money for it. I'm glad that you seem to be doing better bc our lives are going to be separate now and I do want you to take care of yourself also. Just please don't mess with my life anymore._

I've got mixed feelings here. Just reminding myself that she's in the fog...


----------



## OhGeesh

Just read this whole thread you have a great heart!! I just wanted to say that sometimes you can do all of the right things and it just doesn't work out. 

Wishing you all the best.


----------



## land2634

Thanks OhGeesh!

I met with her this evening to give her the crutches. I had just finished at the gym, so I was still in my workout attire. Having been over a month since she had seen me before today, she definitely noticed a difference. She got out of the car and started grinning from ear to ear once she saw me. She tried to play it off and we joked around for a few minutes. We stayed and talked for a few minutes about how each of us is doing. She shared some things with me about her mom, something I know she isn't sharing with just anyone. Either way, I felt it went fairly well.


----------



## iamnottheonlyone

Just how long is JIm going to deal with your wife's illness? When is someone else going to walk into his life that doesn't have baggage? When that happens things could get tougher on you as she struggles to continue her relationship with Jim. That will be the withdrawal period. Think things are tough now? 
You are doing great. 
I have been thinking alot about two factors that probably play the most into reconcilliation. First is the length of the marriage. Shorter marriages may never have had an opportunity to solidify and for a real commitment to occur. Also, marriages with children mean they will be contact between the spouses providing a chance for interaction and positive interplay. 
Your chance will come.


----------



## land2634

Thanks for the input IANTOO. She could have very easily brought her best friend with her to make sure the meeting was short and completely about "business" matters. She didn't do that. I got the feeling that her friend didn't even know she was meeting up with me.

It was really nice to see her grin from ear to ear. Even though she mentioned in her e-mail that she's glad I'm doing well because we are going to be "living separate lives" now, I felt as if it was almost more as a reassurance to herself. I just keep reminding myself to make the most of the opportunities that I do have.


----------



## turnera

One point: She says to quit 'messing' with her life. I want to remind you that you are still married and you are still trying to save that marriage. Therefore, if you follow the program we've been discussing all along, it involves two things: being the best person you can be so that she sees what she is missing, AND doing whatever you can to harm or halt the affair. 

You have every right, as a married man, to try to stop the affair that your MARRIED wife is having. It makes no difference that she has moved out. 

And if she takes any acts you do that interfere with that affair as 'messing' with her, well, you just have to let her think that.

There's a difference between being accommodating to please her, and enabling the affair. The latter makes you look weak.


----------



## land2634

turnera said:


> One point: She says to quit 'messing' with her life. I want to remind you that you are still married and you are still trying to save that marriage. Therefore, if you follow the program we've been discussing all along, it involves two things: being the best person you can be so that she sees what she is missing, AND doing whatever you can to harm or halt the affair.
> 
> You have every right, as a married man, to try to stop the affair that your MARRIED wife is having. It makes no difference that she has moved out.
> 
> And if she takes any acts you do that interfere with that affair as 'messing' with her, well, you just have to let her think that.
> 
> There's a difference between being accommodating to please her, and enabling the affair. The latter makes you look weak.


I was thinking about that earlier this morning. I guess, since I have been better prepared for what to expect, I didn't think too much about her asking me to quit messing with her life. I realize that underneath it all, she's still trying to justify this to herself, let alone those around her. At this point, I've reached out to as many people as I can think of that she would care about to inform them of the affair. While many of them (with the exception of the people she's surrounded herself with) do not support her affair, they aren't exactly jumping in to intervene and say anything to her. Either way, I believe she realizes these people know.


----------



## turnera

Well, just remember that if discussion of Jim ever comes you, you are to - very politely and calmly - say "I love you, but I will not allow you to insult me by talking to me about your affair." 

And drop the subject. She NEEDS to hear that kind of thing - that you STILL are hurt and insulted by what she did TO YOU.


----------



## land2634

turnera said:


> Well, just remember that if discussion of Jim ever comes you, you are to - very politely and calmly - say "I love you, but I will not allow you to insult me by talking to me about your affair."
> 
> And drop the subject. She NEEDS to hear that kind of thing - that you STILL are hurt and insulted by what she did TO YOU.


I think I can handle that.


----------



## land2634

I am considering sending her a "care kit" of sorts to help deal with her rheumatoid arthritis symptoms. Omega-3 fatty acids are supposed to help, of which fish oil and walnuts have. I know she hasn't taken the time to buy fish oil and she enjoys eating various kinds of nuts.

She has had to significantly cut back on her diet to exclude foods that act as inflammatory agents. Wondering if this would be too over-the-top. Any thoughts?


----------



## Wisp

Shows her you care, I think you should do it.


----------



## turnera

Very thoughtful.


----------



## iamnottheonlyone

Can't hurt.


----------



## land2634

The weekend went pretty well. I met with her to give her the little care package I had prepared. She brought me some muffins. She seemed very discouraged and started talking to me about how her condition is really limiting her right now. She will be visiting her doctor again this upcoming Friday.

Yesterday, I sent her an e-mail just telling her to keep her head up and that I believed she would get to feeling better. She sent me a response thanking me, saying she hoped I was having a nice day, and thank you for the care package, especially the walnuts because they are delicious.

All in all, not bad. I've at least got her talking again. A friend of mine that works with her seems to get the feeling things between Jim and my wife aren't as perfect as she wanted, said they aren't speaking to each other much at work. While it in no means says the affair is on the downswing, I think it's maybe a positive sign. I'm just going to keep doing what I'm doing and work toward winning my wife back from her affair. I really get the feeling we could be stronger for it if we can ever truly recover.


----------



## turnera

Me too!


----------



## land2634

I've done a lot of thinking today about where I am personally. As many of you may remember, around a month ago, I was completely burnt out. I was ready to throw in the towel. Then, it was like I woke up one morning and had my "second wind" of sorts.

I don't feel desperate at this point like I did before and certainly feel more prepared. You have all helped me a ton and I appreciate the support and guidance I've received here. I have a certain confidence that things may be getting on a better path, but I'm also cautious enough to not get over-zealous and to protect myself as well.

As I mentioned, my wife has a doctor appointment with her rheumatologist on Friday. She has never liked going to these appointments alone, so I intend to send her an e-mail around mid-week to let her know that I would be happy to take her if she doesn't feel comfortable going alone. She will likely get some fluid drained out of her left knee and her right ankle.


----------



## turnera

Perfect time for her husband to be here.

Here's a picture of a dysfunctional marriage. When I was told I'd have to get a procedure done, and that someone would have to drive me, and stay and take me home, my first question to them was "Is there a place I can stay there to wait for the medicine to wear off so I can drive myself home?"

I am so far removed from trusting my husband to be there for me, or even WANTING him to be there for me, that I prefer to act as if I'm not married. It's my choice, of course - I could work on repairing that. But at the same time, it makes me feel sad that I have chosen to not feel like trusting my husband to protect me in that way.


----------



## Affaircare

Land2634~

Bear in mind that becoming sick and having a disease in front of "the other man" was probably not part of her Affairland Fantasy. Now that he's seen she is imperfect and has warts and all, he may have already or may soon dump her for a younger model or move on to another server/waitress. 

YOU, on the other hand, know of her illnesses, take care of her even when she's ill, know of her fears, and care about those! YOU can offer her some major Love Kindlers here and it sounds like it's a time when things are winding down in Affairland. So stick with it and pace yourself. I actually have a plan for you (and JAR) probably mid-week this week so ... stay tuned! LOL.


----------



## land2634

Affaircare said:


> Land2634~
> 
> Bear in mind that becoming sick and having a disease in front of "the other man" was probably not part of her Affairland Fantasy. Now that he's seen she is imperfect and has warts and all, he may have already or may soon dump her for a younger model or move on to another server/waitress.
> 
> YOU, on the other hand, know of her illnesses, take care of her even when she's ill, know of her fears, and care about those! YOU can offer her some major Love Kindlers here and it sounds like it's a time when things are winding down in Affairland. So stick with it and pace yourself. I actually have a plan for you (and JAR) probably mid-week this week so ... stay tuned! LOL.


Great! You have my attention!


----------



## land2634

We e-mailed back and forth a little today. It turns out her doctor appointment got pushed back to next Thursday because her doctor will be out of the office tomorrow.

I offered her some encouragement and she seemed to appreciate it although she didn't really say a whole lot. I'm not sure what's going on in affairland at this point. I'm just assuming it is still ongoing. It isn't as if we are spending a ton of time together as it is, so I'm just working toward trying to assure that she sees that I can meet her needs enough to at least consider coming to the table and ending contact with him.


----------



## land2634

Monday, September 13 will be a rough day for both my wife and her mom. On September 13, 1986, her father passed away. Her mom never re-married and often spends this day feeling depressed. I will be sending both of them something to help lift their spirits on that day, but I'm not sure exactly what is appropriate. Roses? Another type of flower? Something else?


----------



## Affaircare

Land~

My birthday is the day of the massacre at Columbine High School, and unlike some folks, I actually lived in Colorado in those days and worked with some people who lost their children that day. It's years later now, and yet part of my day is a little overshadowed by remembering what occurred on that particular day. Still I don't choose to celebrate LIFE on that day rather than mope about death, and on that day, April 20th which is also my birthday, every year I plant Columbine flowers in a flower bed... to celebrate but also always remember. Could you maybe start a tradition like that? Plant a rose every year on the anniversary and begin a rose garden that's called "Dad's Roses"? 

Also Judaism has a wonderful tradition I love called "Yartzeit"--it's a remembrance on the anniversary of a death. What a Jewish person does is light a candle that is a 24-hour candle so that there is light on that day. While the candle is lit, they remember the person who passed, go to worship services, visit the grave, some fast or have a family meal. As the date of the yartzeit approaches, they might give a donation to charity that person was passionate about in that person's honor.


----------



## turnera

I would have gone to Columbine if my dad hadn't been transferred.


----------



## land2634

Affaircare said:


> Land~
> 
> My birthday is the day of the massacre at Columbine High School, and unlike some folks, I actually lived in Colorado in those days and worked with some people who lost their children that day. It's years later now, and yet part of my day is a little overshadowed by remembering what occurred on that particular day. Still I don't choose to celebrate LIFE on that day rather than mope about death, and on that day, April 20th which is also my birthday, every year I plant Columbine flowers in a flower bed... to celebrate but also always remember. Could you maybe start a tradition like that? Plant a rose every year on the anniversary and begin a rose garden that's called "Dad's Roses"?
> 
> Also Judaism has a wonderful tradition I love called "Yartzeit"--it's a remembrance on the anniversary of a death. What a Jewish person does is light a candle that is a 24-hour candle so that there is light on that day. While the candle is lit, they remember the person who passed, go to worship services, visit the grave, some fast or have a family meal. As the date of the yartzeit approaches, they might give a donation to charity that person was passionate about in that person's honor.


That's a great idea. Would you be thinking something like at her mom's house? Living in an apartment complex now, there isn't much place to plant anything here. It does, however, just so happen that her mom, who is retired, is a Master Gardener, and even built a greenhouse in her own backyard. This might be something to consider, although I'm just not too sure how open my wife would be at this point to allowing me to just kind of show up or anything of that nature. While she has seemed to open up a little, she's obviously still very reserved and is intentionally guarding herself from giving off the "wrong vibe" throughout our encounters.


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## turnera

You also could find a place where you're allowed to plant a tree in her honor, like in a park or a state forest. She'd like that, being a Master Gardener. We always plant trees for loved ones. You can always go to visit the tree to remember them, and watch it grow.


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## iamnottheonlyone

Aprul 20th was D-day for me!


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## land2634

Rough day today. I sent my wife an e-mail today telling her to keep her head up and that I was thinking of her (anniversary of her father passing away). She responded a few minutes ago:

_Thank you for helping with the student loan stuff and today has been alright. Thank you for offering to cook that meal also but I just can't do it anymore I'm sorry. I appreciate everything you have helped me with and been so nice but it will never happen between us again. I really hope you find someone to treat nice because you do deserve someone and wish that you could of treated me the way I wanted you to. _

I'm just not really sure what to say or do. I know it's the fog, but it still leaves me feeling helpless.


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## turnera

How did she want you to treat her?


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## land2634

turnera said:


> How did she want you to treat her?


Well, I get what she's saying. It obviously doesn't excuse the affair, but I've always had mannerisms and habits that I know ended up driving a wedge between us. One of those things was that I'm not very patient, and I end up showing it.

A big issue for us was a perception that I didn't help around the house or give her the attention she wanted/needed. As an accountant, I no longer work in public accounting, but work for a company as an internal accountant. A close family friend came to me near the end of last year asking for my help for his business because his accountant had gotten 17 months behind. He was willing to pay very well. I took on the project, and much of my free time at home was spent working on it. In my wife's eyes, she saw me sitting in front of the computer ignoring her, when I was really trying to make money to help support us. When you add to it that I've been working on breaking into the field of sports journalism and actually landed a weekly column in our local paper, I spent a lot of time working in which she saw me following sports and playing on the computer. It was irresponsible and ignorant on my part.


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## turnera

Which you could have solved by communicating!


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## land2634

turnera said:


> Which you could have solved by communicating!


Or by simply prioritizing better and realizing that good finances wouldn't matter if I didn't have a wife to share it with.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Well, I was kinda thinking along the lines of showing her what you were doing, telling her why, asking her input, and letting her feel that you were on the journey for financial solvency together.


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## land2634

That's a very good point. Getting her input on how important it was to her would have been vital as well.

I get the feeling that, while finances were important, she would have rather had some quality time without me being distracted. Oftentimes, we would be sitting in the same room while I would work, but obviously I wouldn't be very conversational or personal while occupied.

All I can do is learn at this point. This was a biggie pointed out to me in "His Needs, Her Needs" when I read it.


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## land2634

I haven't responded to her e-mail yet. I'm trying to decide if I should or not. My feeling is that by not responding, I'm indicating an acceptance of what she says.

Any response would likely include me pointing out that her "wish" could still come true if she so chooses, but it's more an unwillingness to work on our marriage as opposed to "we could never be together again."

I don't know. Not really sure which path to take.


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## turnera

Well, you know me. My response would be along the lines of...

"Well, I wish you wouldn't have chosen to have an emotional affair and cheat on me, too, but there's nothing we can do to change the past, is there? My hope is that we BOTH can see the mistakes we've made and find a way to continue a path together, forgiving each other and rejoicing in what we have always had in common and loved to share together. But it can't happen with only one person. Maybe some day you'll see the fog you're in and realize you're justifying yourself. Maybe you won't. Just know that, if you do - and if so much time hasn't passed that I've given up on you and moved on - I'll be here to talk about what it would take for both of us to reach that forgiveness."

JMHO


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## land2634

I never responded. Turns out, it seems she wanted me to.

_I'm sorry if it hurts you bc you haven't replied but makes me upset too bc I wanted it to work for so long. It might of if your parents and everyone else you got involved would of just stayed out. So I'm sorry _

This is definitely coming from her fog and my second observation is how it almost seems as if she is fishing for me to re-assure her that it can work. Maybe I'm reading too deeply into it.


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## turnera

Go ahead and just be honest with her. Tell her where you stand.


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## land2634

I think the response I sent her has left her thinking. Apparently she was teary-eyed at work yesterday.

In talking with one of my really good friends last night, who actually works with her, he was saying even he misses her. She's been incredibly rude to him recently, and in the past she had always been really nice to him. He said he just misses her being nice because it made it a more enjoyable place to work. Interesting to note that her choices and actions definitely affect more than just us. I think maybe she is starting to realize that, whether she admits it or not.


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## turnera

Did you send something else?


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## land2634

Sure did. After you said to lay it all out for her, I sent her an e-mail telling her basically that her wish for a great marriage can still come true but we actually have to work on it. I told her that while I love her and have made the choice to honor my vows, it will not last forever without some reciprocation. I mentioned that while I am sorry for the ways in which I extinguished her love for me that it has been very hurtful for her to go outside of our marriage, yet I would still like to rebuild a strong and loving relationship with her.


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## turnera

Nice!


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## pathwaystherapy

Sounds like emotional infidelity and a significant boundary violation. I'd suggest you read two of my articles on boundaries and on Facebook, both are separate but on some level connected to the issues you are facing. 

Article on Boundaries
Article on Facebook

I'd suggest also seeing a counselor as well. Emotional infidelity can be as painful and complicated as a physical affair.


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## lobokies

i respect on everything you have done to rebuild your marriage.
but the important thing is you become better everyday in handling this condition.

i wait every update from you


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## land2634

I still haven't heard from my wife since sending her a response. She may have a lot to digest right now. I'm thinking she is probably question everything that has happened to this point. It's really hard to sit back and wait, but I'm not sure what else to do at this point.


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## jar

Sitting back and waiting is so hard some times try to keep your self busy….I am with you brother…I am experiencing the same thing too at the moment….


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## iamnottheonlyone

Quite the thick fog. Stay strong and patient. Things are moving along. You are not a quitter. You have shown that. And you know there will be a lot more disloyal dizziness before the fog clears. You are thinking clearly.


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## land2634

I'm dealing with a lot of anxiety right now. I feel very angry.

While watching college football with a friend last night, his fiance was there are well, who works with my wife and used to be in their "clique" until she didn't support the affair. She overheard a conversation between my wife and Jim at work in which one of they seemed to be jokingly arguing about who left the air conditioner on the night before. I feel like I've been punched in the gut.

More than any time before, I feel the urge to confront Jim, and maybe give him the respect he deserves by knocking a few teeth out. I know it wouldn't do any good, but it's still a hard thought to get rid of. I'm angry all over again about the level of disrespect he showed by blatantly pursuing my wife. This has led me to go back and read some of their Facebook chats (I know, not exactly healthy for me) and he quite obviously told her at one point, "Yeah, I just decided I wanted to talk to you one day even though we worked at the same place for 3 years and never spoke, so I just brought you some food from Chick-Fil-A for lunch."

I just can't understand how my wife, or anyone for that matter, doesn't see this for what it is. I get the feeling that until she feels pressure from her friends to do the right thing, the affair will continue. The friends that don't support the affair don't want to say anything because they don't want any backlash from the other friends. It's really a tough situation... I just wish people could do the right thing.

Her birthday is coming up soon. I intend to make a DVD for her with memories of us, both video and photo, with a very touching song in the background.

YouTube - Lifehouse - Storm [ Music & Lyrics ]

That is the song. I have listened to it over and over again. It captivated me the first time I heard it, and it helps me relieve some anxiety.

I miss her a lot right now. I keep asking myself how I could miss someone that has no regard for my feelings and emotions, but I can't come up with an answer.

The biggest thing I've struggled with recently is being over-analytical. I've always been someone that analyzes the things people do and say. Before I met my wife, I tended to deal with a lot of social anxiety. She has, to this point in my life, been the only person I've ever felt comfortable around. It's really hard not having her to talk to on a day-to-day basis.

I'm sorry for my rambling. Just having a hard time tonight and I'm really confused.


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## turnera

Why don't you talk to Jim? In front of everyone at work?

Have you told HR about it?


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## land2634

I believe if I tried he would go hide somewhere in the store. The friend I was watching the game with last night had been in the store one evening and saw him and even specifically asked for him to help him with a computer, but Jim slipped out as if he was going on lunch. It is a great idea though.

HR was notified but have said that since I don't work there, they won't do anything. I realize it is grounds for harassment issues in the workplace, but to this point I haven't pursued any legal aid to go any further with it. For the most part, everyone in the workplace knows about it, and except for her circle of friends, are frowning pretty heavily upon it. Many of them don't understand why I would ever want to be with her again.

Either way, I think for the most part, it's been exposed to everyone I can think of. It would really help if someone, anyone would talk to her and with that alone, I think she would start seeing that what she is doing is wrong. To this point, I know in her fog that she honestly believes she is doing right by taking this route. Is there anything else I can be doing at this point?


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## turnera

Yes, I truly believe that when you expose, you owe it to yourselves to kind of...expose again. By that I mean bring the subject up again to those to whom you've exposed, and remind them that you're still fighting to save the marriage, and that you really WOULD appreciate any help they can give you to thwart the affair.

Oftentimes, people just don't want to get involved. Even if you 'tell' them, they don't really get it that you expect them to step in and say something. 

Make it clear. Ask for help.


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## land2634

turnera said:


> Yes, I truly believe that when you expose, you owe it to yourselves to kind of...expose again. By that I mean bring the subject up again to those to whom you've exposed, and remind them that you're still fighting to save the marriage, and that you really WOULD appreciate any help they can give you to thwart the affair.
> 
> Oftentimes, people just don't want to get involved. Even if you 'tell' them, they don't really get it that you expect them to step in and say something.
> 
> Make it clear. Ask for help.


Good point. I may see who I can contact to see if I can get the ball moving here.

As far as paying Jim a visit at work, is there anything specific I should say or not say? I have a pretty good framework in my head of what I could say, but I guess I'm still partially hesitant. The one thing that has held me back from confronting him at this point is that her circle of friends will likely report back to her that I'm "harassing" him. I just don't want to act out of anger. I know it never results in anything good.


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## Guest8786

I'm sorry for what you're going through. But in my opinion there's only one thing you can do. Just let her go. She doesn't love you any more. maybe she did once but it has been gone for a long time. It's her decision. What's the use having her back just as a ghost with no love from her. No matter how much you love her, if she's not loving you back how can you be happy?

I can understand this is hard on you, but face reality. Been feeeling all this coming along through all these posts. You can't make her love you if she decides she doesn't want you.


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## jar

I thought a lot about confronting the OM..I never did…You can read peoples comments somewhere on my thread…

I have felt very invisible to the OM in my own situation. I often would ask myself how could he not care what he is doing to wife me and our families…I understand what you are going through.

Ask your self these questions

If you contact him what would you say….

What good would it do…

What are the negatives about contacting him….

What if things get violent…

I finally came to the conclusion in my situation that the OM does not give a F*#@ about anything but himself and his affair with wife…Contacting him would do no good.

Much like you I have had all the feelings everything from wanting to give this guy a beat down to sitting him down over a cup of coffee and try and talk some sense into him.

I think having friends of the marriage approach him and wife and let them know what they are doing is not right and that they do not support there behavior may have a better effect. I would think that would make carrying on the affair that much more uncomfortable.

On the days where I wanted to contact OM I would right a letter to him and wife and then sit on it for a few days. It was a way to get out my frustrations at them. After a few days if you still feel like you should contact him then go for it. In every case so far my feelings would pass and it would seem like not like a good idea.

Just my 2 cents

JAR


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## Guest8786

I'm talking from my own experience. I'm trapped at home with a husband I never realy loved. but i never had the courage to leave him cause of family and friends. all this emotional sadness in me, trapped her, and living a lie, has even caused me cancer. he's doing everything for me to help me now. but i have no love for him as a husband. maybe I love him only as a brother.


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## land2634

jar said:


> I thought a lot about confronting the OM..I never did…You can read peoples comments somewhere on my thread…
> 
> I have felt very invisible to the OM in my own situation. I often would ask myself how could he not care what he is doing to wife me and our families…I understand what you are going through.
> 
> Ask your self these questions
> 
> If you contact him what would you say….
> 
> What good would it do…
> 
> What are the negatives about contacting him….
> 
> What if things get violent…
> 
> I finally came to the conclusion in my situation that the OM does not give a F*#@ about anything but himself and his affair with wife…Contacting him would do no good.
> 
> Much like you I have had all the feelings everything from wanting to give this guy a beat down to sitting him down over a cup of coffee and try and talk some sense into him.
> 
> I think having friends of the marriage approach him and wife and let them know what they are doing is not right and that they do not support there behavior may have a better effect. I would think that would make carrying on the affair that much more uncomfortable.
> 
> On the days where I wanted to contact OM I would right a letter to him and wife and then sit on it for a few days. It was a way to get out my frustrations at them. After a few days if you still feel like you should contact him then go for it. In every case so far my feelings would pass and it would seem like not like a good idea.
> 
> Just my 2 cents
> 
> JAR


That's actually what I do a lot. I write. I started writing him a letter last night putting it all on the table. Putting it all down helps me somewhat most times.


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## land2634

I wrote a letter to Jim to, at the very least, get a little off of my chest, even if I'm not sending it:

_Jim,
To this point, I have remained quiet toward you in regards to how things got to where we are today. While many around you know the truth of your actions, still many more have been deceived by your smooth words to believe things have occurred differently than the truth. In many ways, it wouldn’t surprise me to know that you have started to believe the lies yourself; lies that remove the burden of the utter disrespect and disregard for something as sacred as a marriage from your shoulders.
When you first started talking to my wife, I had no problem with you. Having worked with you previously, although we had never talked much, I had never had any reason to hold any ill will toward you. What came next was the most shocking. Surely you aware that on many occasions when she was with you, she had told me she was elsewhere. I found this out rather innocently, yet after it became apparent that the behavior was ongoing and you were encouraging it, I began to watch more closely. You began to place yourself on a pedestal while subtly instilling ideas into my wife’s head that I was the enemy, even more subtly encouraging her to compare all of my negatives with all of your positives.
You put up a front to make yourself seem innocent right to my face, yet all along were plotting behind my back in an effort to sweep my marriage out from under me. You would act friendly to my face, but as it turns out, you oftentimes proceeded to talk down of me after the fact and behind my back. You continued to instill the idea that I was somehow “controlling” over my wife, while in fact I was the one being controlled. The very fact that information was being purposely withheld from me (like who she was with, what she was doing, when she lied to go to lunch with you) was controlling my thoughts, emotions, and reactions.
To this point, you’ve claimed an innocence to everything at hand, saying that everything just “happened” after the fact; I think you and I both know you’re very good at getting what you want, and in this case, it seems you got it. You were the one to bring up the conversation about feelings for my wife, you continued to say and do things to feel out where she was in order to determine the right timing for making your move.
You’ve told people that you were just being a good friend to her and helping her through hard times. If that were true, things would have turned out very differently. If you were truly trying to be a good “friend” and nothing more, when she came to you with marriage problems, you would have given her suggestions for putting a spark back into her marriage, you would have told her she should be talking to me about it instead of you, or even better yet, you would have said, “Hey, you know, I’m not a professional, so let me help you find a marriage counselor so you two can work on your issues.” Instead, you took a path that you felt benefited you more, choosing to pursue a married woman.
I realize that my wife is also responsible for choices that have been made, but the fact that she was so very obviously vulnerable meant you should have tread even more carefully if you were only trying to be a friend. I’m not claiming to be a perfect husband, because I obviously have my own mistakes, but I took a vow to love, honor, and cherish my wife for the rest of my days, forsaking all others. It’s a vow she also took, once in which I take very seriously. Marriages go through rough times frequently, and ours was no different, yet many of our problems were expounded by the fact that we had issues in communicating with one another. When you began pursuing my wife and making me look like even more of a bad guy, it became impossible for me to communicate with her.
This is not just a short-term relationship that you have helped to throw a wrench into; it is a marriage. While you may not take that seriously, having never been married yourself, I do. You may not care about anything I have to say, but quite frankly I wouldn’t expect much else after you so blatantly disregarded the covenant in which my wife and I had with one another. You may not believe in God, but I do, and I know that God takes the covenant of marriage very seriously as well.
Whatever the case may be, I will have you know that I love my wife very much, and although the hurt that has been caused on both sides is piled high, I will continue to love her until my dying day. After all, to purify gold, you must first put it to the fire. I hope you will consider these words and use more caution in the future when dealing with someone who is married.

land2634
_

There, I at least feel like I said something to him.


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## iamnottheonlyone

I_feel-broken confronted the OM. His wife was at OM's house when he did it. You might check with him. I agree with Jar. I think ist takes the focus off of you. OM is a distraction. You keep doing what your doing. And be patient. Her chit chat about things being over seem to be very typical. When this is done it seems like the DS is testing your determination. You must be determined but not a doormat. 
Jar has been flirting. Successful flirting requires a fun component and humor. How funny are you? If you have your confience then use some playfulness. Use you imagination. Write a funny poem. Send her an old picture where you two were being silly. And s funny note to it.
Be the guy she wanted to date.


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## i_feel_broken

Hi land,

As IANTOO said I did confront the OM. I knew him from way before, he was my MD at previous job and I had been to his house for a meal etc so I felt very betrayed. 

I think the decision to face OM is yours as there is no real telling what will happen in each given situation but I will tell you what I got from it and offer some advice, I hope it helps

It was the hardest thing I have ever done to talk to him and then leave him with my wife standing on his drive. I would advise doing it when your wife isn't around so she is not forced to take sides etc. I went to his house early in the morning, he was unprepared and looked scruffy and I think this helped give me the sense I was better than him. It may sound stupid but go feeling and looking good and try and catch him at a bad time for him when he is off guard.

I was devastated for a few days after but I have no regrets now, I think it showed both OM and my wife that I had the guts and self respect to face him and tell him what I thought. It made me feel better as I felt like less of a doormat and that I was prepared to stand up for myself. I think it may do the same for you??

My wife was annoyed for a while and it did push her even further away for a while so be prepared for a bit of a backlash and anger but she will get over that and see why you have done it.

I kept it short and to the point, I didn't want to get into a long debate with him, I think it's better to tell him confidently and abruptly what you think and then leave with your head held high. No shouting, threatening or engaging in slanging matches etc. You have the moral high ground - tell him straight and firm. It was great to see my ex-MD, a previous figure of authority stand quietly like a naughty school boy in front of me looking at the floor. That's how I will remember him!


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## land2634

Thanks for the input!

When I step back and look at the situation in the proper perspective, I'm just not sure confronting him would do any good at this point. Like I posted above, I wrote that letter to get it off of my chest, but I don't think I'll be getting it to him.

The part of me that hurts would love nothing more than to kick his teeth in, but all that may do is fuel the fire for her to push further away from me than she already has. It might send a very mixed message if I'm working on love kindlers and then confronted him in any fashion. I don't know, maybe I'm wrong.


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## i_feel_broken

land2634 said:


> Thanks for the input!
> 
> When I step back and look at the situation in the proper perspective, I'm just not sure confronting him would do any good at this point. Like I posted above, I wrote that letter to get it off of my chest, but I don't think I'll be getting it to him.
> 
> The part of me that hurts would love nothing more than to kick his teeth in, but all that may do is fuel the fire for her to push further away from me than she already has. It might send a very mixed message if I'm working on love kindlers and then confronted him in any fashion. I don't know, maybe I'm wrong.


No I think you have a good point. Only you will no when is the right time. When I did it it was just a day or two after she had left me for him so there was less at stake at that point for me. Maybe keep thinking about what/where how etc in case you decide in the future you need to??

Right now it may undo some of the good work you have done with no result.


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## turnera

I think if I was going to do it, it would be where his coworkers could hear, so it would have the most effect.


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## land2634

turnera said:


> I think if I was going to do it, it would be where his coworkers could hear, so it would have the most effect.


Definitely, especially since most of her circle of friends work up at the front close to where he works. I can't remember if I mentioned it, but apparently this isn't the first married woman within the workplace he has pursued. No real surprise there, but the woman he was pursuing previously moved in April... mere days before he first spoke to my wife.


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## land2634

HELP!

I'm trying not to panic...

Just received an e-mail from my wife:

_so I filed for divorce. I need to give you the papers to sign and it will be final 60 days from today. I have everything done and was approved for them to pay everything. I'm really sorry but we can't ever be together no matter how much you believe. Just let me know when I can meet you._

Feel like I just got punched in the gut again... what should I do?


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## Guest8786

Oh dear
Calm down, stop thinking about you and her. 
Start thinking about you and you and you.
Honestly I feel the more she sees you desperate, the more you're pushing her away.
She might start thinking again if you show her you're not interested any more. She might.
May God bless you and help you.


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## jar

Wow Land….

I am so sorry to hear this….Do you think she is bluffing…

Don’t do anything give yourself some time to collect your thoughts and calm down. Talk with some friends or family or therapist. 

Read some of the advice affaircare gave me a few weeks back when wife and I were at the mediation table. There are ways to drag this out.

You may want to start talking to a layer at this point so that you can better understand what some of your options are at this point.

You’re going to have to stand up for yourself and your rights. It seems like you wife wants a quickie divorce like mine was going for a few weeks ago.

I am thinking of you and know the panic you are experiencing. 

JAR


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## Affaircare

> _so I filed for divorce. I need to give you the papers to sign and it will be final 60 days from today. I have everything done and was approved for them to pay everything. I'm really sorry but we can't ever be together no matter how much you believe. Just let me know when I can meet you._


It's clear even from her email that she is still firmly planted in the fog. It will be final in 60 days IF AND ONLY IF you agree to everything, Land. If you and she filed together, you would be "Co-Petitioners" and that means the two of you basically agree on everything: how to split assets, debts, etc. If you do not file together, she would be the "Petitioner" (because she's the one petitioning the court to legally undo the marriage) and you'd be the "Respondent" (because you'd be responding to her petition). 

If you don't agree to the divorce, and it's "Petitioner/Respondent" I'd have to check but every state I know of says that the petitioner has to serve the respondent (that costs her money) -AND- the respondent has 30 days to REPLY TO THE PETITION! So on day 29 you file your response with YOUR version of what you think is fair--not her fog-bound, me-me-me version--and you two will *not *have a divorce in 30 more days I guarantee you. 

There are five steps to a divorce, remember? 
* 1) Original Petition
* 2) Temporary Orders
* 3) Discovery
* 4) Divorce Mediation
* 5) Divorce Court

So she has filed the original petition. In 29 days (about October 20th) you would respond to her original petition with a reasonable proposal that is based in reality! Next the court would schedule a meeting for the temporary orders. Until the court orders you to do anything, I personally suggest either paying her NOTHING or paying her what you, Land, can see will be declared child support. If you two have no children, and she is able to work and has been working--you can not prove for sure she'd get alimony at all so I'd say pay her zero. So schedule the date for Temporary Orders (which is usually about 30 days down the road or Nov. 20th) and on day 25 or so request a reschedule which would put it about 30 MORE days down the road, which is getting into the Holiday season and New Years when every government office has tons of days off and schedules are a mess. That means it would be early next year 2011, before you even get to the Temporary Orders part!

Now Temp Orders are pretty important because the court tends to "keep things as they are" unless it's really obvious (like a father of 3 who's been paying no Child Support for all these months), so these meeting is one you'll want to go to and have a pretty good legal representative. I guarantee you it will not feel fair to you, because the judge doesn't give a rip that your wife is being adulterous and tearing your heart out. S/He just wants to be "all business." At some point you will lose something you thought was important or something dear to you, and that's why you need your lawyer--to act as your representative and argue logically when you feel all emotional. 

Once Temp Orders are in place, usually there will be a date scheduled for "Discovery" and that means that both your side and her side can ask for info. So you would subpoena her paycheck stubs, bank records, taxes, etc. to prove that she's making more money than you and she should pay YOU alimony (for example). Obviously this takes time and is usually given 60-90 days because your side would have to file papers to request info from her side, etc. You can ask her question she HAS to answer (call interrogatories) but they have to be relevant to the divorce; you can ask for document/records; you can ask her for permission to release information (that means you'd go to the credit company and request her record); or you can do a deposition. You would subpoena and depose any individuals who may have information relevant to the case--like The Other Man for instance! The company who supported the affair! Her friends who encouraged the marital breakup! As you might imagine, this part can get expensive so that's something to bear in mind, but it can also REALLY slow things down if she's not forthcoming!!!

Then, before the final settlement trial there's also usually court-mandated mediation and many states also have the option for court-mandated counseling. All you'd have to do is tell the court that you DO think it's reconcilable and the court would ORDER 30 days of marriage counseling. She would have to go or it would harm her divorce case! Again...another stall of 30 days or more! 

So Land, as you can see there is really (oddly) plenty of time. The average divorce in the USA takes about a year, and her dream of 60 days might be the minimum limit in your state, but that doesn't mean it actually happens that fast. 

********
There is one caveat on this, Land. As you can see it would be easy to stall for close to a year, but at some point I could see you reaching the conclusion that you're *done*. If that's the case, then I remind you of a few facts. You fought a long, hard fight. You stayed faithful and stood for your marriage in the face of devastating pain. You did the right thing when it was hard, and day-after-day you patiently loved a woman who made a mistake...hoping she would see the light and do the right thing. That says a LOT about you. It is within your moral right to be done and end your marriage due to adultery (you don't have to exercise that right, but you can). I don't think ANYONE would think any less of you if you did make that choice either. So if you are done, it is okay to reach an agreement with her that you sincerely think is as fair as it's gonna get, and sign the papers. If you are done, you may as well get it over with, and if you believe it's fair, it's your decision to make. Okay? 

We are here for ya, land.


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## land2634

Thank you for the help. I am still at a point where I would love to see her come out of this fog. When I didn't respond within an hour of her e-mail, she sent another one:

_I'm really sorry. I know your hurt but everyone should of just stayed out of our business. Our lives will get better but for now its gonna be hard. I'm sorry _

How can she pin this on people who were encouraging her to go back to her marriage? :scratchhead: Definitely the fog...


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## turnera

And you do NOT have to meet with her just to let her do this. I would reply: "I see. I have no time to see you right now."


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## turnera

land2634 said:


> Thank you for the help. I am still at a point where I would love to see her come out of this fog. When I didn't respond within an hour of her e-mail, she sent another one:
> 
> _I'm really sorry. I know your hurt but everyone should of just stayed out of our business. Our lives will get better but for now its gonna be hard. I'm sorry _
> 
> How can she pin this on people who were encouraging her to go back to her marriage? :scratchhead: Definitely the fog...


 Crazy.


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## Affaircare

> _I'm really sorry. I know your hurt but everyone should of just stayed out of our business. Our lives will get better but for now its gonna be hard. I'm sorry _


Dear Land: 

I'm sorry, but I have to divorce you because all of our family members and friends kept telling me I had to keep my promise and honor my marriage vows. Our marriage could have worked out if only they had not told me to be faithful and stop my infidelity! Darn family members--it's THEIR fault, not me. 

~Mrs.Land     

Anyone else's Spidey Sense tingling over the silliness of that one? Land, I'm not trying to be disrespectful to your wife, but your analysis that she's still in the fog is very, VERY, *VERY *correct. The good news is that when she begins taking personal responsibility for her own choices (rather than blaming others), you'll know that she's out of the fog and if that were to occur it should be fairly easy to see.


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## iamnottheonlyone

I am so sorry to hear this. You can do nothing. You can say no, I don't agree. You don't have to cooperate. The process will move forward with out you. But you don't have to be part of it until the money issues are raised. Is there property you need to be conderned about. I don't remember.


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## iamnottheonlyone

AC under her name just put up a post about what to do in your case. Take a look.


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## land2634

Just got done meeting with her. We sat and talked for nearly 2 hours. She bawled during the point in which she gave me the paperwork.

I'm no attorney, but from what I can tell, she gave me a copy of the original petition, and then also gave me the form she asked for me to sign. It is called "Waiver of Service" and basically seems as if I waive most of my rights by signing it.

Also, it seems that temporary orders were already attached. Sounds like I need to get in touch with an attorney...


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## Affaircare

Right, you are served with a copy of the original petition. That's kind of like "her version" of the legal request for a divorce. It's what she's asking for. 

"Waiver of Service" means "I waive my right to have a sheriff serve me the papers" and it does not mean that you sign away any rights other than that she can hand you the papers. Otherwise, she has to get another person who's age 18yo or older ... or hire a sheriff to "serve" you. They do that so you can't say, "Well I never got the papers!" Someone signs for these papers--its either you, or a sheriff who says, "I put those papers in his hand." So a Waiver of Service is not bad. 

The temporary orders attached to the petition are her version, and they are what would go into effect if you do not reply within the 30 days (or whatever the rule is in your state). So if you file your response with the court on day 31...her version is the Temporary Order. If you counter-file YOUR version on let's say day 25, you have stalled and also you can say what you think is a more fair version...and then a Temporary Order Hearing would be scheduled for about 30 days after day 25! You've stalled for 55 days or almost two months and that pretty much kills her idea of "this will be over in 60 days" doesn't it?

But yes, I do suggest getting in touch with an attorney if for no other reason than to look over what she proposed and what you propose, and then give suggestions or feedback. And I would also STRONGLY suggest reading up on the divorce laws in your state. No one knows your sitch like you do, Land, and you're the one who's going to have to live with what you decide to do. So you need to be informed and steer this ship. 

If you need help finding your state's divorce laws, or need help putting it into human being English, send me a PM. You can also contact me through my website ya know!


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## land2634

Thanks, this makes a little more sense now.

I got the impression last night that she doesn't really want this, but feels it is too late to turn back. At one point, she actually said, "I really wish it could work out, but I don't believe it can."

That could be fog-talk, but she seemed very genuine in that statement and I'm normally fairly perceptive when she says things of that nature. I really think she believes she will look like a fool and her friends will look down upon her if she turns back now. I'm not sure they'd be the most supportive, but I doubt they would push her away.


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## turnera

Then I would focus on that! Ask her friends and family to talk to her! Ask them to tell her that they WANT her to return to her marriage!


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## Tanelornpete

> I got the impression last night that she doesn't really want this, but feels it is too late to turn back. At one point, she actually said, "I really wish it could work out, but I don't believe it can."
> 
> That could be fog-talk, but she seemed very genuine in that statement and I'm normally fairly perceptive when she says things of that nature. I really think she believes she will look like a fool and her friends will look down upon her if she turns back now. I'm not sure they'd be the most supportive, but I doubt they would push her away.


Pride (and the accompanying embarrassment) often is the reason people will go through with a divorce they don't really want. 

This is not fog talk - fog talk is a distortion of reality; this is reality pushing through - a moment of clarity. This is the best sign I've seen for you in a long time: definitely focus on it. Stall the divorce as long as you can, notify her that you _know_ it can work out and that you are her best friend, and that you want her back in your life. Tell her your door is open and you are home waiting for her. 

Let her friends and family know this! Yes, the cost of lying to people is that you lose some of them, but true friends will still be there. People who love her will still be there.


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## Affaircare

:iagree::iagree: 

This is something I would encourage you to focus on and if possible, use to your advantage. 

I'm going to open up and tell you something a little personal. When a disloyal is involved in an affair--through a class at school or work--there are other people around that become acquaintance-friends and who know about the relationship. They may or may not know the disloyal is married, and when they find out, they may or may not say something. But they are people whom the disloyal met whom they would call a "friend," and they are often the type of person who would encourage infidelity or divorce. Maybe it's because the friend was also unfaithful and they want to justify their own actions. Maybe it's because they divorced their own spouse and they don't want to feel bad for what they did. 

To your wife, it is very likely going to feel like if she returns to the marriage, she'll lose all her "friends" and the only people who will be left are people who look down on her or will forever hold it against her--like your parents or a certain siblings whose that judgmental kind of christian. So why would she give up people she cares about--"friends"--for people who are going to see her as "the cheater" for the rest of her life? Also she's built her life, separate from you, such that all her interactions and activities are interwoven with these "friends." They work or go to class together, hang out together, text and chat together...all of that will be gone! 

So can you see why she can't see it?

At the time when I was ending my affair, I kept thinking I would be so lonely and the only person I'd have in my life was a person who ignored me in the first place! I kept thinking of all the people I really cared about whom I'd never get to talk to again, and it seemed like such a huge cost! Now granted, in reality that is part of the cost a disloyal pays for making the choice to be unfaithful...but as a loyal spouse does this help you to envision why it seems so hopeless to her? 

I would recommend something like talking with your parents or whoever you think she's worried about, and asking them to specifically reach out to her and say something like, "We miss you and consider you part of our family. Yep it hurt, but the whole point of family is a close-knit bond that supports each other through the good stuff and the bad." Maybe take her to lunch let her know how many people are praying for her and encouraging her to return and are willing to help walk her through if she does! (Remember: the "friends" she's with now only say that other side out loud, so she needs to hear the side about returning out loud just as much.) 

And yes, she would have to give up probably her job at that store/site, and give up her "friends" that have encouraged infidelity, but in their place, you are willing to take some time off just to take care of her and spend some time together like a mini-vacation. It would be just the two of you doing something FUN (and then mention a place she's always wanted to go and you never had the time). Thereafter, you two pick an activity that you both like (such as a certain sport or hobby or whatever recreation) and start doing that together as a couple. She'll make new friends who know her MARRIAGE relationship and know it's "Land and Mrs.Land", and who encourage her in her marriage!


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## land2634

Everything you've both said here helps me understand a lot better. This seems to be exactly the feeling she conveyed without using those words.

I will be speaking to my mother this evening, asking her if she can, for now, set aside her anger and resentment toward my wife and show her some love and support. I know my wife is worried about what my parents and brother think of her at this point. Part of the conversation I had with my wife last night involved me assuring her that even though I will always remain close to my family, that I have chosen to love her regardless of what they or anyone else think of her. I pointed out Mark 10:7-9 to her:

_For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh. So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate._

She seemed to appreciate that, even if I don't support her decisions, I do support her as my wife, if that makes sense.



Tanelornpete said:


> Pride (and the accompanying embarrassment) often is the reason people will go through with a divorce they don't really want.
> 
> This is not fog talk - fog talk is a distortion of reality; this is reality pushing through - a moment of clarity. This is the best sign I've seen for you in a long time: definitely focus on it. Stall the divorce as long as you can, notify her that you _know_ it can work out and that you are her best friend, and that you want her back in your life. Tell her your door is open and you are home waiting for her.
> 
> Let her friends and family know this! Yes, the cost of lying to people is that you lose some of them, but true friends will still be there. People who love her will still be there.





Affaircare said:


> :iagree::iagree:
> 
> This is something I would encourage you to focus on and if possible, use to your advantage.
> 
> I'm going to open up and tell you something a little personal. When a disloyal is involved in an affair--through a class at school or work--there are other people around that become acquaintance-friends and who know about the relationship. They may or may not know the disloyal is married, and when they find out, they may or may not say something. But they are people whom the disloyal met whom they would call a "friend," and they are often the type of person who would encourage infidelity or divorce. Maybe it's because the friend was also unfaithful and they want to justify their own actions. Maybe it's because they divorced their own spouse and they don't want to feel bad for what they did.
> 
> To your wife, it is very likely going to feel like if she returns to the marriage, she'll lose all her "friends" and the only people who will be left are people who look down on her or will forever hold it against her--like your parents or a certain siblings whose that judgmental kind of christian. So why would she give up people she cares about--"friends"--for people who are going to see her as "the cheater" for the rest of her life? Also she's built her life, separate from you, such that all her interactions and activities are interwoven with these "friends." They work or go to class together, hang out together, text and chat together...all of that will be gone!
> 
> So can you see why she can't see it?
> 
> At the time when I was ending my affair, I kept thinking I would be so lonely and the only person I'd have in my life was a person who ignored me in the first place! I kept thinking of all the people I really cared about whom I'd never get to talk to again, and it seemed like such a huge cost! Now granted, in reality that is part of the cost a disloyal pays for making the choice to be unfaithful...but as a loyal spouse does this help you to envision why it seems so hopeless to her?
> 
> I would recommend something like talking with your parents or whoever you think she's worried about, and asking them to specifically reach out to her and say something like, "We miss you and consider you part of our family. Yep it hurt, but the whole point of family is a close-knit bond that supports each other through the good stuff and the bad." Maybe take her to lunch let her know how many people are praying for her and encouraging her to return and are willing to help walk her through if she does! (Remember: the "friends" she's with now only say that other side out loud, so she needs to hear the side about returning out loud just as much.)
> 
> And yes, she would have to give up probably her job at that store/site, and give up her "friends" that have encouraged infidelity, but in their place, you are willing to take some time off just to take care of her and spend some time together like a mini-vacation. It would be just the two of you doing something FUN (and then mention a place she's always wanted to go and you never had the time). Thereafter, you two pick an activity that you both like (such as a certain sport or hobby or whatever recreation) and start doing that together as a couple. She'll make new friends who know her MARRIAGE relationship and know it's "Land and Mrs.Land", and who encourage her in her marriage!


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## land2634

My mother just e-mailed my wife and told her that her and my father miss her and that they could never not love her because she is a daughter to them. My mom said she could never envision me with anyone else and that she misses her a lot and cries tears for her everyday and that nothing she could do would ever make them not love her.

We'll see what sort of response, if any, my mother gets.


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## turnera

Awesome.


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## land2634

To my knowledge, she hasn't sent any sort of response. I would imagine that either way, it has her thinking.

Is it Friday yet?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Affaircare

Hang in there, Land. If you get tired, it's okay to have a little rest and do something for yourself. 

BTW, since this is Plan A/Carrot and Stick...what have you been doing lately to work on YOU?


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## land2634

I still go to the gym 3-4 times a week and I am involved with a softball team, which gives me some enjoyment.

As far as personal growth, I've been doing some study on biblical manhood. It's really neat to see how you can take different resources and put them all together to see a bigger picture of the person you'd like to be.

As far as work goes, I'm just bored out of my mind right now. I tend to run out of things to do near the end of each month. I'll be busy once October rolls around, but until then, I'm sort of spinning my wheels.


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## Affaircare

As you study biblical manhood, have there been things that you discovered that you know now you would like to do differently--as a man and as a husband? Have you been studying biblical marriage? Fidelity? Covenant?


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## land2634

Very much so. The biggest thing is that oftentimes, what we initially perceive as important because society tells us so really isn't the case. We end up living a life going through motions that don't fulfill us in our personal lives, through God, or even in our marriages.

One of the biggies as it pertains to marriage was in reading through the book of Mark when Jesus is talking with the pharisees. Jesus rebukes the idea that just because you CAN get a divorce on the grounds of adultery doesn't mean you SHOULD.

These are just a couple of things I've noticed. I'm considering doing some blogging on my thoughts as they pertain to biblical manhood.


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## Affaircare

Want to do a guest blog on our Affair Care Coaching blog? We can exchange it over PM if you'd like or as you know our email is [email protected] or [email protected] I think it would be a great addition to have your thoughts!


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## land2634

I think that would be good. I'll be working on it! I enjoy writing so you've just given me something to do!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## friendly

Just read your story! If you were just here starting at the very first page, I would give you an suggestion that you would not have pushed your wife away. Nevertheless, here is my suggestion. I hope it's not too late.
1 make your wife fall in love with you again.
Court her, date her, bring her to a nice place. You can go to the movies or her favorite spot. You can bring her to a romantic dinner.
There are many things you can do. But,
Be fun and polite
Look good, dress up, 
Your conversation topics must be relaxing. Can talk about movies, shopping or jokes... Make her feel deeply loved, respected, desired. Make her understand she is the most beautiful wife you can ever wish for. Tell you love her more than your life.
Avoid any topic that makes her nervous. If you don't know what to say, just listen to her and agree with her in positive response. Be a good listener!
Give her a surprise, it can be a boundle of flowers, a box of chocolate, she's your wife, you should know what gifts she likes.
No tension, no pressure!
Throw away your anger and pressing attitude in the trash can.
Beef up your talking skills and do research online on "what women want... Be a loving husband before it's too late!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## friendly

The most powerful thing you can make your wife come back to you.
After romantic dinner. Bring her to a quiet but romantic spot! Give her the surprise you prepared. The best gift would be a box of jewelry. Open the jewelry box kneel down and apologise for not being a good husband and for being stupid for being all the hurt you bring to her. 
Tell her you love her more than your life and she's the most beautiful wife you can wish for. Beg her for a second chance. I think her heart would melt and burst into tears.
Try it!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

I think I would hit my husband over the HEAD with his jewelry if he tried that!

He KNOWS that jewelry and romance are NOT my Love Language. He KNOWS that I want acts of service and he has failed to provide them. He KNOWS that, if he doesn't step up and start helping me keep our house running, I will leave him. No amount of jewelry or begging on one knee would make me keep him at this point.

My story, not yours.

Just pointing out that it doesn't matter what YOU think your wife wants, to keep you.

What matters is what SHE wants, to keep you.

Do you even know?


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## friendly

Not every woman is tough like you. You sound very manipulative. I'm sure his wife is a softer person from his story. Important is the apology and think about a gift that she likes. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## friendly

You want to hit your husband? We call it domestic violence and you're abusive. This is the type of women that I have been warning to the boyfriends and husbands.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

friendly, WHAT is your problem? You throw out accusations that are so off base that you engender no validity.

What makes you think you have the answer for every situation?

I'm telling land - as I've been advising him for some time - to take the time to learn and realize that his wife has her own feelings and thoughts, and if he wants to appeal to her, he needs to understand her. You can't MAKE someone do what you want. All you can do is become the person they want to be with.


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## turnera

friendly said:


> Not every woman is tough like you. You sound very manipulative. I'm sure his wife is a softer person from his story. Important is the apology and think about a gift that she likes.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So...what makes you think you KNOW what his wife likes?

My husband has been giving me jewelry for 30 years. And I have been asking him to take care of our house, instead. He ignores me, and goes out and buys jewelry. While our house(s) falls apart and I am ashamed to have anyone come over.

The real answer is to take the time to learn who your partner is. Just buying jewelry is an irresponsible piece of advice.


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## friendly

I'm working out a suggestion for him, not for you! for his reference, not for you! I said, it's a suggestion. You can't read english? Are you his wife? Who gave you the right to speak as his wife? Don't overate your importance! Your husband is your husband. It's a different man. He's not your husband and I offer an idea for him not for you! I condemn your advocating violence.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## friendly

We're only here to offer an idea. Whether he likes your idea or my idea or someone else idea is up to him. Once again I condemn your advocating violence in hitting a man over his head! F you!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Ok...I'm gathering English is not your first language?

land...stay the course and pay attention to what YOU need, and what your WIFE wants.


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## turnera

friendly said:


> We're only here to offer an idea. Whether he likes your idea or my idea or someone else idea is up to him. Once again I condemn your advocating violence in hitting a man over his head! F you!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 Again, I'm gathering English is not your native language, or else you'd realize that that is a generalization - people don't really hit others over the head. It's a figure of speech. It means that you point out - broadly - that this didn't work.


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## friendly

turnera said:


> I think I would hit my husband over the HEAD with his jewelry if he tried that!
> 
> He KNOWS that jewelry and romance are NOT my Love Language. He KNOWS that I want acts of service and he has failed to provide them. He KNOWS that, if he doesn't step up and start helping me keep our house running, I will leave him. No amount of jewelry or begging on one knee would make me keep him at this point.
> 
> My story, not yours.
> 
> Just pointing out that it doesn't matter what YOU think your wife wants, to keep you.
> 
> What matters is what SHE wants, to keep you.
> 
> Do you even know?


This is an abusive message that violence is advocated.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## friendly

Here is the evidence. Stories Of Abused Men In Texas
They say no man is abused by women in mankind history. It's a lie!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## land2634

While my wife does appreciate little gifts, I have come to learn that she appreciates things like acts of service and conversation more. She would rather sit and talk about the day and work on a project together than go out to the fanciest restaurant and receive jewelry. That doesn't mean she doesn't like those things every now and again, but on the whole, she feels more fulfilled when I am (and a big generalization coming here) "there for her."

That I didn't realize this before had a large role in why she felt our marriage was in bad shape yet I was oblivious. Knowing my wife, if I begged and pleaded, it would only make her push me further away. Also, since we aren't currently living together, it's more difficult at this point to gain time to spend with her. She is very distanced and guarded at this point, so I have to walk before I can run and just take baby steps toward showing her that I am the man that she wanted all along.


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## friendly

Women did hit over the head and not only the head! I have a thread in other forum concerning domestic violence in Texas. A reader has posted a tearful comment that still brings me tears. Allow me to paste here:
No, it's true. I'm a Texan and my wife hacked off my nuts and made a coin purse out of the sack. I need to ask her how many quarters it holds. A Friend of mine hid in the shed for four days, before his mother in law caught him by an ankle and dragged him back to the house. What she and her daughter did to him has always been an intriguing mystery to me, because none of them will talk about it. Then there is bowlegged Bob, from the job. He was born with the need for bowed legs, but he tells me it's out of habit now. I could go on and on about it, but I think you can all see how it is here in the state of steers and steers.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## friendly

land2634 said:


> While my wife does appreciate little gifts, I have come to learn that she appreciates things like acts of service and conversation more. She would rather sit and talk about the day and work on a project together than go out to the fanciest restaurant and receive jewelry. That doesn't mean she doesn't like those things every now and again, but on the whole, she feels more fulfilled when I am (and a big generalization coming here) "there for her."
> 
> That I didn't realize this before had a large role in why she felt our marriage was in bad shape yet I was oblivious. Knowing my wife, if I begged and pleaded, it would only make her push me further away. Also, since we aren't currently living together, it's more difficult at this point to gain time to spend with her. She is very distanced and guarded at this point, so I have to walk before I can run and just take baby steps toward showing her that I am the man that she wanted all along.


I agree! This is a much better comment about gifts.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## friendly

We are all here to give an idea and an suggestion. No matter what suggestion, as long as it works, is a good suggestion.
It's all upto the thread creator. We don't have to criticise other ppl's suggestions and we Must not advocate violence in our comments!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## friendly

I have only one suggestion- make your wife fall in love with you again.
All the rest are just my ideas.
An suggestion is for the thread creator to read as a Reference. 
That's about it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MsLonely

friendly said:


> I agree! This is a much better comment about gifts.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think Land2634 knows about his wife very well.


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## friendly

Sorry about the situation. I believe if you keep showing her you are the man she wanted. Her love and trust will come back little by little. Good luck to you!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tanelornpete

> ...make your wife fall in love with you again...


This is an avocation of violence. There is no other way to 'make' someone do anything, except through the use of force. It is utterly impossible to do it any other way.


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## Affaircare

Honestly I think the best thing we, as a forum "Coping With Infidelity" can do right now is pretty much ignore the poster named friendly and stick to the plan. Turnera, anyone here who knows you knows that you would not actually physically assault your husband with the jewelry. Throw it on the ground in frustration? Maaaaaaaaybe!  So know worries, Turn, it's just a troll trying to make you feel upset and inflame the board. 

Land, you mentioned she likes acts of service and talking. Are you able to call, email, or text her during the day--just sharing little things about your day? I do not know, and would acquiesce to your judgment, but maybe that would be a way to reach out to her a couple times a day and show her some of the things you've learned (note: I said "show" because if you tell her she'll say "yeah right!"


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## land2634

At this point, the only means of communication I have with her is e-mail, and I'm glad I at least have that. I've been thinking about exactly what you're saying. I've wondered if maybe it would give her the sense of what it would be like to be a part of my life again.


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## turnera

lol, why am I suddenly envisioning one of those airplanes with the message written in smoke?


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## MsLonely

Land2634, advocaton of violence? you "make" me happy and you "make" me smile? Sth wrong in this forum...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MsLonely

Hi Affaircare, your husband Tanelornpete, and turnera,
I just checked out your website affaircare.com Our Fees and found your fees are too costy for service product. Maybe you can give everyone a big discount?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Affaircare

Turnera! You're hired!   

MsLonely, actually our fees are very low for the industry. Both MarriageBuilders and SaveYourMarriageCentral charge about $280/hr. DivorceBusting is $150 for 45 min (that's $200/hr), and even Mars/Venus charges $117/hr and you don't talk to Michelle Weiner-Davis or John Gray--you talk to a coach trained in their methods. 

The big benefit with us is that we offer people in all sorts of situations different ways to contact us that might fit their budget. For example, what we do here is no charge. Granted it's "in public" on a forum but it's our way of giving back right? We also have email coaching, which is slower than chatting or calling, but it still can get the job done and it's pretty reasonably priced precisely for those who can't afford a couple hundred bucks for one contact with someone! And finally with one of our live chat options, a person could do a "per minute" cost and just do a quick talk ... keeping the cost low but also getting immediate, personalized help. 

Finally the best part of all. We don't turn people away. We agree there is so much need out there and so many people in financial trouble right now that we are willing to work with you and hit some agreement that works for both of us.

Here's my thought though...this is a thread about Land and how he's dealing with his wife and hoping to win her back. If you'd like to discuss prices or pricing, let's not do it here on this thread. Let's do it privately via PM. Since Turnera is working for us now, you can ask her! :lol: :rofl: :rofl:


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## Guest8786

Was impressed by your mother's email to your wife. You sure have a good family to back you. Praying all works well for you. You are a good man and you deserve better. Praying for you,


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## land2634

I got out of town for the weekend. It was nice to get away. The couple I stayed with were once really good friends of my wife as well. Overall, I feel a little refreshed today. I spent some more time studying on Biblical manhood. I found some really interesting things that I had never noticed before. It will all be revealed in my blog post, hopefully coming in the next couple of days. I truly am learning something new every day.


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## turnera

Isn't that a wonderful feeling? I always feel so sorry for people who don't read, and learn, and grow.


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## land2634

It really is. Even during the most tumultuous time of my life to this point, I feel better about myself day by day. My biggest hope is that others can learn from me, whether it be avoiding the same mistakes as me or actually approaching me and asking, "Hey, how did you get through that rough patch in YOUR life?"


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## avenrandom

land2634 said:


> My biggest hope is that others can learn from me, whether it be avoiding the same mistakes as me or actually approaching me and asking, "Hey, how did you get through that rough patch in YOUR life?"


Now that I finally came out of lurker status with another post, just wanted to post here as well. I've been following land for a few weeks now. Land: this whole thread helped me quite a bit, and I was able to handle a similar situation without major conflict due to being able to see possible outcomes / solutions. Still hoping / praying for your best possible outcome.


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## iamnottheonlyone

Land,
This can be one of those "quiet" times. Something like Jar went through and I am sort of having. Make the little contact you are having positive and friendly. Maybe slightly flirty and/or humorous. She is having a difficult time. Just a little spirit lifting.
Stay the course and follow your plan. Remember what Yogi said: It ain't over 'til its over. (Or did he say, "I smell a picnic basket?)


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## land2634

I think today has the possibility of being a very long day. My friend that works with Jim and my wife got into an argument with Jim today in the break room at work. Jim was talking to one of the girls that my wife has surrounded herself with. He was mentioning my wife's birthday coming up and how he had something special for her but didn't know if he should buy her a cake or bake one.

At this point, my friend spoke up and said, "Jim, you know, I've been civil for the most part, but you're a jerk and disrespectful for even considering talking about this when I'm around when you know her husband is one of my best friends."

At this point, Jim began defending his actions, saying that he did nothing wrong, blah blah blah. My friend pointed out to him that he knows what kinds of conversations they were having online WELL before my wife left. Jim said, "Well, I tried to call him to talk about it, but he didn't answer." This was back at the beginning of August. At that point, there was no good way for me to confront him.

The argument ensued with Jim hurling insults at my friend, and actually stooping as far as saying my friend and I should go have gay sex together if we're so close.

My adrenaline is indeed going. I'm sure I'll get a nasty e-mail from my wife when she gets off of work about how I should tell my friends to "stay out of it" and whatnot... or maybe I won't. Jim mentioned to my friend that after I didn't answer, he told my wife to call me and tell me it was over.

I almost wonder if he is making her feel trapped. Like I said, I could see the hurt in her eyes when we met for her to get me divorce papers... she didn't seem to want a divorce at all. Maybe she hasn't come back because she sees no good way to end things with Jim when she feels she is in too deep? The way my friend described it, it almost seems he is controlling her to a point...

Sorry for the rambling, my thoughts are everywhere. I'm glad my friend stood up for the marriage.


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## Tanelornpete

In a way, this is perfect. Your friend may have done more for you that you can imagine - it just may take some time before this becomes apparent. This introduces stress into a relationship based on lies. Your response to any nasty email from your wife will be important: make sure you at least include, in any reply, the notion that you care for her. Be yourself - the 'new' self. 

Let her see some differences. The more this happens, the better - this has introduced some major stress at work that can generally start spreading. I applaud your friend.

JMHO


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## land2634

Tanelornpete said:


> In a way, this is perfect. Your friend may have done more for you that you can imagine - it just may take some time before this becomes apparent. This introduces stress into a relationship based on lies. Your response to any nasty email from your wife will be important: make sure you at least include, in any reply, the notion that you care for her. Be yourself - the 'new' self.
> 
> Let her see some differences. The more this happens, the better - this has introduced some major stress at work that can generally start spreading. I applaud your friend.
> 
> JMHO


I was wondering this in the back of my mind. I knew I needed to let my feelings of anger subside from his comments before really coming to any conclusions about what just happened, but I can definitely see an opportunity to be the calm voice of reason in this scenario.


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## turnera

Oh, I agree! You owe your friend a sixpack to thank him! Can you imagine how stupid Jerkwad Jim looks now?


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## land2634

My thought is this (keep in mind these were Jim's words, not mine): Jim is so mature as to challenge my friend by saying, "Why don't you go 69 Land if you two are such close friends?" What else does he say about everything going on? What does he say to people around him about how he "stole a man's wife" and whatnot?


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## turnera

Now that the cat's out of the bag (I assume there were others in the room), how about asking your friend to keep the conversation going, a la talking to other people about what Jim is doing? See if he can stir up some dust in their affairland.


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## land2634

There was one other person in the room (one of Jim and my wife's mutual friends). Nonetheless, I already received a text from another friend saying that Jim is a total (jerk) for all of this and that he heard what happened in the break room.


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## turnera

Great! Ask him to keep spreading the good word! 

Tell him that you still want your wife back, despite it all, and if he would help you by keeping the subject going, it would help drive her and Jim to a decision.


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## land2634

Well, I just got done hanging out with my friend and we talked some more about the break room confrontation. The more I find out, the more obvious it is that my wife definitely feels trapped. My friend overheard Jim making dinner plans on both of their behalf. It also explains why, when we met last week, at about exactly 11:30, my wife said she had to go.

While my friend was letting Jim have it, it became apparent Jim had no idea that she has kept contact with me at all. He likely has no idea she sat and talked with me for 2 hours last week (which was her idea, not mine). Imagine his shock that she is "sneaking" around behind his back... how dare she have contact with her husband? 

All sarcasm aside though, I must find someone who will speak to her about this. She has pretty much shut out anyone who initially took my side. I've sent an e-mail out to a couple of her friends, but with no response. I feel like I'm hitting a dead end on that front, but maybe an opportunity will present itself.


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## turnera

That's a great idea.


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## land2634

OH! I almost forgot!

Jim claims that what's going on is NOT and never was an affair. "It's called something else." He couldn't say exactly what that is though. I thought this was rather amusing.


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## jar

That’s the funniest thing I have heard all day….He cant even admit the truth to him self.

Jim must tell himself that your wife and he are soul mates that is what the OM has told my wife before….Such BS


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## land2634

Wow, just got a late-night e-mail from my wife:

_I'm sure I have been on your mind a lot today. I'm sure you can thank your great friend Joe for that. Or your parents for still not getting the point to stay out. I'm done so just leave me alone and sign the papers_

Obviously, Joe is my friend that got into it with Jim yesterday.


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## land2634

This may not be the best way to do it, but this is the response I REALLY want to send her right now:

_You know, I've tried to stay mostly passive to this point, but I just can't do it anymore. When Jim is blatantly bragging at work about his next attempt to please you right in front of the face of my friends, it's pretty disrespectful. This doesn't even account for the people he goes around bragging about how he stole a man's wife away. To your face, he may treat you very well, but behind your back, you're obviously just another object to him with the way he talks. He should really be more careful about who he brags too... I used to work there too. Then he tells Joe that if we are such good friends, we should "69 each other" because you're his now. Just how am I or my parents causing problems here? My parents have done nothing but love you. You have an entire support group of friends that you used to consider your BEST friends that would love to re-connect with you, yet you have pushed them away because they don't support what you're doing. I may not have been the perfect husband, but I've always loved you. I took a vow with you, a convenant, to love you until death. I intend to honor that as long as possible, but just know that when Jim moves on, I may not be able to be here with open arms. Remember the story he told you about how he got in an argument with his girlfriend and made her get out of the car in the middle of nowhere and walk? He tells everyone that story because it's something he is obviously proud of. If that's where you're headed, that's your choice, just know that I can't support the decision._

I probably won't send it, but it sure is what I feel like saying right now. I get that she's in the fog, but wow... just wow...


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## land2634

...and this is where I'm learning not to act on impulse and to calm down before replying.

I'll reply with something a little different in the morning.


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## turnera

I think your letter is PERFECT. 

SEND IT.


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## land2634

I actually elaborated on in a bit. Let me know what you think.

_Wife,

I've tried to stay mostly passive to this point, but at the same time, I can’t be a doormat. When Jim is blatantly bragging at work about his next attempt to please you right in front of the face of my friends, it's pretty disrespectful. This doesn't even account for the people he goes around bragging about how good it feels that he can get any girl he wants, even the married ones, or how “exhilarating it is to know you’re f***ing another man’s wife.” To your face, he may treat you very well, but behind your back, you're obviously just another object to him with the way he talks. He should really be more careful about whom he brags to...

Remember the story he told you about how he got in an argument with his girlfriend and made her get out of the car in the middle of nowhere and walk, throwing her stuff out of the car? He tells everyone that story because it's something he is obviously proud of. If that's where you're headed, that's your choice, just know that I can't support the decision.

Then he tells Joe that if we are such good friends, we should "69 each other" because you're his now. It’s a real picture of maturity. I guess it’s no different than the way he told you everything you wanted to hear during your Facebook chats so that you would fall for him. The way he told you things like how he considered you his physical equal was just disturbing. I’m all for encouragement, but at that time, you couldn’t hardly walk because you were hurting so bad from your arthritis. It was pretty obvious what he was trying to do.

The entire time it was going on, I knew what was happening, yet kept my mouth shut. I would ask you questions I already knew the answer to and was lied to time after time. One of the biggest was when you were doing the painting for his birthday. Everything was in plain sight in that bedroom and you still lied to me, saying you didn’t know what you were painting yet, despite having a file wide open on your computer screen with quotes about feelings and falling for him. You continually said you needed “alone time” which actually translated to you wanted time to sit and talk to him online. You got to where your entire life became a secret. You started sitting in the recliner in the corner with your computer turned so I couldn’t see what was being said. You started keeping your phone close at all times, and even got up at 4AM in the middle of the night once, turned on the shower water, but it never splashed. You had taken your phone into the bathroom.

There was also the night right before our anniversary when you ended up not going kayaking. I found out after the fact that kayaking was out of the plans at least 2 or 3 hours before you left the house that night. Despite it all, I kept my mouth shut for the most part. Why? Well, because I love you and didn’t want to fight. Anytime I did voice my concerns over what was developing, I was made to feel like I was paranoid and delusional. The resulting stress and anxiety from this quite literally felt like it would be the end of me. This is why I continued to watch things. I had to convince myself that I was NOT crazy and that it was really happening.

You keep saying people should stay out of it, but the truth is, these people are acting on their own behalf. I can’t control the actions of many. If they don’t support what is happening, I’m sorry, but I can’t make anyone do anything or not do anything. Truthfully, it isn’t as if this is all easy for me when Jim and your best friend's husband are going around telling people that I abused you. It took me weeks to get up the courage to even tell you I knew what was going on, much less lay a harmful hand on you. You and I both know I could never physically hurt you, and it’s really hard to have people going around saying I did.

My parents have done nothing but love you. I understand they may have upset you, but this hurts them too. The decision you are making does not only affect yourself and me. The fact is, my parents are losing a daughter and my brother is losing a sister. My parents truly treat you as part of the family, and they have all cried many tears for what is happening because they miss you like crazy.

You have an entire support group of friends that you used to consider your BEST friends that would love to re-connect with you, yet you have pushed them away because they don't support what you're doing; it doesn’t mean they don’t love you. I may not have been the perfect husband, but I've always loved you. I took a vow with you, a covenant, to love you until death. I intend to honor that for as long as I can. This is not just some throw-away relationship to me. You are my wife, the woman God put into my life to love and cherish, and I take that very seriously.

With everything being said, I love you and care for you. I haven’t been a perfect husband, but I have loved you. I’m really sorry for the ways in which I let you down, but just know that I have never been more prepared to be the loving and Biblical husband that God has called me to be and would love to rebuild a loving and caring marriage with you.

I love you.

Land2634_


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## turnera

Love it. I think I'd add a last sentence, "You know all it would take: for you to come home, never again contact Jim, and commit to our marriage."


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## land2634

Excellent. It's sent.

I actually stood up for myself for once... even if it makes her mad, I respected myself enough to stand up for myself.


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## turnera

And no matter what happens, you can be proud of yourself.


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## land2634

_I have nothing else to say to you. Leave me alone and you are too late to be worrying about me anymore. I don't trust you or anyone related to you whatsoever. Sign the papers now and leave me alone. I'm done and there is nothing you can say to me that is going to make me change my mind._

That is the response I got from her. Funny, she'll trust someone that quite obviously pursued her just because he could, but not someone that, despite her CHEATING on me, has been very supportive of her.

I'm not signing anything until I'm ready. Funny thing is, since she's using the legal aid system, she isn't actually in contact with an attorney. There is no way to prove she served me with papers unless I sign this form waiving my right to be served. She doesn't realize that, and I'm sure not going to tell her. If she wants to continue her affair, she's going to do it with people knowing she's been married the entire time. Then again, I guess it's no longer an affair once the divorce is final.

I'm in no hurry:rofl:

All I've got is time, so hey, might as well just sit back and relax and watch the show.


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## turnera

I'm really proud of you.

Wow, she sure didn't like you calling her out on her behavior, did she? Gee...

I wonder if she knew he talked about her that way? I bet she's really ashamed. But will never admit it.


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## land2634

Guess not. I didn't even think I was overly critical. Oh well, she will, at some point or another, realize that what she is doing is a huge mistake. Whether or not I'm still around is a different story. Getting out of town again this weekend. I'm going to take a drive to Abilene to have a "chillax" weekend with my cousin and play video games like little kids. Oh the things that still amuse me as an adult. I just finished my sports column for the week and got it sent to the newspaper. I think it turned out as one of my better columns. Funny how it works; when things are more hectic is when my columns are slightly more opinionated and more smoothly flowing.


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## Affaircare

Land~

I have three things to say to you. 

1) WOW!  I am stunned at how well-written that letter was. I am so proud of you I'm almost speechless...almost but not quite! LOL

2) If you do not sign the "Waiver of Service" then she will have no way to prove you were served--and if she wanted things to proceed she would have to pay someone to serve you. Usually it's about $35-$50 or so to have the sheriff do it. I am not an attorney, but from what I see, she has basically tipped her hand about what she would be requesting in a divorce, and I don't see that you are required to do anything, legally. Do you know if she filed the papers with the court? 

If she did file, there's some limit (usually like within 120 days) wherein she would have to serve you. So in other words, if she filed she has 120 days to prove you were served. If she doesn't do it within that time limit, she'd have to start all over again. So it might be worth your while to find out if she actually filed them or just typed them out...and then find out what the limit for service is in your state. Shoot, you can look for that stuff yourself and never tip her off that you're looking, and then just don't sign it for 120 days! 

3) Finally we got your guest blog and it is AMAZING! I doubt we'll even make any changes or edits, it's just that good. So ... *WOW *I am just so impressed right now.


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## Initfortheduration

Land, I have been friends with a couple where the wife has had severe RA since your wife's age. She is now almost 50. Your wife does not know what she is doing by casting you aside. This friend's husband has stood beside her all these years. Through hot wax treatments. Through having her toes, fingers, ankles and wrists pinned. Through gold shots and severe heart problems (chest cracking, quadruple by pass kind) caused by Methotrexate (read the side effects of it, they will keep you up at night) and the other medications she has had to take. Your wife is the worse kind of fool. This man will cast her aside or use her till she is to much of a hassle. I know you love her and your commitment to her does you credit. She doesn't know what she is in for. If she did, she would be kissing the ground you walk on. This is her loss. Though you may not want to, you will find someone else, and your life will be *completely* different. I feel so sorry for her. She is her own worst enemy. If she does end up divorcing you, forget her and start over. And I mean total NO CONTACT. It will just eat at you and drain you over the years.


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## lobokies

yes land, i do agree with Init.

never thinking of her again and the total NC is the suit one for you on this case.


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## land2634

Like I said, all I've got is time. I'm not really sure I'll have much contact with her anytime soon. I will just keep working on myself and go from there.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## iamnottheonlyone

Land,
We are with you. You are doing the right thing. She is still deep in the affair fog. She thinks this loser is something special. She will see his true colors soon enough. If she is truely a loser then she will stay with him despite who he is. Then you will find that you are better off without her.


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## land2634

Overall it was a pretty good weekend. Spent some time with my cousin and his wife and we basically cooked good food all weekend.

My wife's birthday is coming up this Friday. Is it just me, or does it seem a lot of wayward spouse's birthdays are occurring around the same time? All kidding aside, I'm trying to plan how exactly I will acknowledge her birthday, if at all. Knowing her, she will be showered with plenty of praise that day from Jim, her friends, and people at work, so I'm not sure simply not acknowledging it will have any desired result as far as consequences go. On the other hand, I don't want to be overbearing; I want to find a middle ground, if you will.


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## iamnottheonlyone

It is kind of freaky that we have these important dates coming so close together. As you probably know, JAR is just sending a funny card and a gift card. I think I'll be mailing an anniversary card. Although my W called to wish me a happy B-day, I didn't get a card or a present. Twenty two years and not even a card!!
Back to you. I think you should do the same thing. Nothing over the top.


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## josh1081

LOL...haven't ever added any cents here, two or otherwise. But my anniversary is Friday. I think you may be onto something with this month having some kinda bad reaction with it. Maybe Halloween casting a spell on the month? 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## i_feel_broken

Hi land,

do what you feel is best as only you know. From what I can gather it maybe best to pull into a slight plan B scenario IMO. She is being a bit nasty now and I think it's time she learnt to live without Land. After all the hurt she is causing you, you may realise she does not actually deserve your thoughtfulness and love.

I think giving her a nice present now will make you out to be a doormat. She says that stuff to you, treats you like that and you give her a present. Just doesn't sit right with me.

All the best


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## land2634

Yeah, I think I'll try to keep it simple.


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## land2634

My brother walked right in front of my wife and Jim together yesterday. They were in line for the drive thru at Chickfila and he was walking to go inside. It is really eating at my brother. He just glared at them as he passed by.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Affaircare

josh1081 said:


> LOL...haven't ever added any cents here, two or otherwise. But my anniversary is Friday. I think you may be onto something with this month having some kinda bad reaction with it. Maybe Halloween casting a spell on the month?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What IS it with the October spouses, man? Brings a whole new dimension to "Evil Twin"










:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Okay in all seriousness I have thought of the absolutely PERFECT gift for a birthday or anniversary. Go back to your wedding day, find a copy of your vows, and hand write them out as you said them on your wedding day. Take your time and write them as pretty as you can--using fancy stationery, a fancy pen and your very best hand writing. Then buy a larger size, fancy invitation envelope and include the beautiful vows and a little note that says, "I still mean them just as much today as I did on the day we said them to each other. Happy Birthday/Anniversary my love." 

<----I love me.


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## iamnottheonlyone

Love it!!!


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## land2634

I really like that idea!


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## Nattu_Khattu

Wisp said:


> Please PM Tanelorpete for advice on the next steps
> Your a long way off and there is always a risk for the turn for the worst, always assume the worst so you are not shocked when it happens,
> 
> When you speak to her family be very civil , and ask for their help suggest they call her after a few days when the realisation sets in.
> 
> Remember Jim will also be under pressure, they will talk, create plans get emotional , I suspect very emotional based on their behaviours you have described in the past.
> 
> Your one and only target for now is to stop the affair thereafter win you wife back
> 
> Suggest after talking to the family let things lay for a short while you assess what is going on..
> 
> If she does go to the lawyer say you are going to fight for your marriage and want joint counselling - better advice will be forth coming from the experts.


Sounds like my story just add a 2.9 year old kid to it. I am feeling ****** but have to put on a bold face for my son. I am posted in India and my wife thought she couldn't live here and so moved to spend time with her parents to a different country. I supported her all along as i understand India could be a difficult country. the affair should be about 3 months old but discovered it 1 week back. Since she was in the afffair all i heard from her was "I love you but am not in love with you". This is an office affair. 

I cant approach the CEO or the HR of her office as the person she is having an affair is with THE CEO. I have contacted him he denied and the affair continues. Next day sent him a cease and desist mail to end the affair (with copies of his SMS and hr long calls to my wife) which he is not responded to.

After she got to know i exposed it to her "CEO" she hates me and blames me for everything. I have taken care of the kid for the last 2.9 yrs. I am unable to get in touch with her "CEO's" wife I wish could but not working. 

She says she now is convinced that she needs a divorce as i was never a good husband and now have brought her shame. 

She threatened to call my parents to let them know that she cant live with me any more and would file a divorce. I spoke about this to my mum and called my wife back the next day and handed the phone to my mum so she could have a word but my wife hung up. 

I found that this guy was checking and reading my mails to my wife. So sent him and my wife this morning an email mentioning that he should stop reading my emails. He is himself married with two kids and is married for 12 yrs. I wanted to let my wife know that he is trying to be more controlling than i ever was because she accused me of this. 

In this whole process i have not got in touch with my wife, all i did was sent her a mail saying she is always welcome provided she comes out of her fantasy land and says sorry to out son for what she has been doing. I will be doing a few more exposures tomorrow. 

PLS HELP!!!! I want to save this marriage....


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## turnera

You need to find his wife. Pay someone if you have to, but TELL her! Also call your wife's parents, siblings, and best friends, and tell them the same thing - ask them for help saving your marriage and ending the affair.

Surely, this CEO has someone higher than him? A Board of Directors? Let them know what he is doing; let them know you're thinking of sicking a lawyer on both him AND their company.


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## iamnottheonlyone

Since you are in contact with OM, ask him if his wife knows about this. Then let him know she will very shortly unless he stops his behavior. The afair must end in order for the marriage to recover. Read some of the longer threads form the sart to see how things work. Much of this is counter-intuitive. No begging, pleading or groveling. You may have lost all confidence. No rash moves. Come here and post so that you can get some clear thinking to assist you.
She is going to have to change jobs. Zero contact with OM. But considering your circumstances that is not likely until OM gets the message. Exposure may work to bring her back. But with her she is shamed (as was my wife). Exposure serves to get the affair out in the open so it is in the light of day. Then they enter the real world and get to see how they function. More later. Affaircare and others should pipe in this afternoon or evening. 
Stay calm. Take some deep breathes. If you get anxiouus call a good friend or relative and vent. Vent until you feel better. Or come here and post. There are plenty of big hearts here.


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## turnera

I wouldn't warn OM that you're going to tell his wife - that gives him time to set her up with 'there's this crazy guy I fired and now he's trying to ruin my life, saying all kinds of lies; if he calls you, just hang up.'


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## land2634

During my lunch break today, I went into my wife's place of employment to pick up the next season of a show I'm watching. I noticed my wife's car wasn't there, so felt it was safe to go in. What I didn't notice is that Jim's car WAS there. As I turned a corner to go into one of the DVD aisles, he was coming around the same corner from the other direction.

I'm pretty sure Jim almost wet himself. He turned around and walked away. When I went up from to check out, he sat on a stool glaring at me, I guess because he felt safe sitting behind all of my wife's friends that were working up front today.

It took everything I had not to say something to him, but I held back and just acted as if he didn't exist.


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## dazedbeauty

Hi, 
After reading your story, I couldn't help but think that your wife has a caring husband right in front of her, and she's one of those types that doesn't get it. 
Putting all drama aside, marriage is a choice. There is so much more temptation out there where people can associate privately, unlike "back in the day". So therefore, marriages will suffer. It's so sad. 
Anyway, my point is don't hem-haw over any of it. Get to the point. Let her know that you love her, but at the same time you are not going to share her ANYMORE. (anymore because you have been sharing her with "Jim"). Also let her know you have knowledge of her activities. If she gets angry then that's her problem. Remember, she broke the trust with YOU, so sure you're going to check her story to regain trust again! 
She is making her choice, she has her cake and she's eating it too. She has hubby for physical comfort and then has gay friend for male emotional comfort. She needs both from you and for whatever reason she's choosing a distructive path. 
Please know it's not YOU. It's some type of emotional problem that she has, and if you aren't meeting a need she should come to YOU about it, not outside sources first. 
It doesn't matter that you two struggled because of an illness, actually, a crisis usually brings loved ones closer. 
I hope you just tell her like it is, don't be afraid to tell her directly, looking her straight in the eyes what you know, you have that right. And she will have to work to regain your trust, that's just how it is. 
db


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## Affaircare

Nattu Khattu~

Since this is land's thread we want to keep the focus and discussion here about him and his situation. However I did start a new thread just for your here: Nattu Kahattu's Thread.

****************

Land~

 OMG! I can not believe you controlled yourself so well, running right into him like that!  I am not positive I'd have had the self-control but I'm proud of you. You were there on business, conducted yourself with confidence, and he has to slink away like the snake he is!


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## marilee

Oh good gravy. Your wife left you for a guy who works in a VIDEO STORE? 

I just have no words. NO WORDS.

-----

Wait. Yes I do. 

What on EARTH is your wife thinking? 

Plan B her out the wazoo. Let her see how fantastically comfortable life on a minimum wage salary will be.

Sheesh.


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## Nattu_Khattu

Thank You Affaircare for starting a new post for me. I was so so so connected with what land was going through that i had to pour what i have been going through.


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## land2634

Trying to keep my mind occupied today. It is my wife's birthday.

Thankfully, it is also two of my friends' birthdays as well. We will be hanging out this evening and I think that should help a lot.


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## land2634

I received a message on Facebook from a college classmate my wife and I both had classes with. I've known her since high school. She said she went to wish my wife a happy birthday and noticed that my wife and I are no longer Facebook friends.

I let her in on what is going on, and she was very sympathetic. She mentioned that a year ago, she had an affair on her husband with a co-worker and they were literally days from finalizing the divorce and decided not to go through with it. She said their relationship is now better than she ever could have imagined because she got the courage to end the affair.

She mentioned that the fact that he still loves her after such a huge mistake really helped her see that it was worth saving.

She just sent me a follow-up message asking if I would like her to try to get in contact with my wife since she knows what my wife is going through and thinks her perspective will help my wife understand that things can always work out if you are willing to work on it.

My wife doesn't know her that well, but I am considering giving the green light on this one.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Oh heck yeah!


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## land2634

We'll see if my wife will at least listen to her. This friend was in the same position, feeling it wasn't worth trying at all, but gave it a shot. Either way, this has been an interesting development. Funny how people start noticing things and asking questions.


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## Affaircare

Go for it! 

GREEN LIGHT! GREEN LIGHT!

And yeah it's wonderful how God sends just the right person at just the right time, isn't it?


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## iamnottheonlyone

Play some positive/upbeat music really loud! Sing!


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## land2634

Well, she has been unable to get into contact with my wife to this point. It's rather difficult since I don't even have my wife's phone number. We'll see what happens.

Last night was sort of tough. Like I said, I decided to hang out with my friend who was having his birthday get-together as well. I made myself somewhat of his personal babysitter. I didn't feel like drinking so I went with him and got him around. We ended up stopping at his friend's house, who lives about a block away from my wife's mom, where my wife has been supposedly living. We were there until around 4AM, at which point I couldn't help myself. I checked to see if my wife's car was at her mom's. It was not. My worst fears that she is at least staying with Jim and could possibly be living there full-time look to be confirmed. I could be wrong, but it would be the only other place I could think of for her to be.


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## turnera

I'm sorry. But you kind of knew that, didn't you?


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## land2634

Yeah, pretty much.

Word from her workplace is that she has talked about how she is purposely being rude to me to see if I will drop into the background. Word is, her friends are getting kinda tired of the act because they think she is overdoing it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Well that is GOOD news! That means you are affecting her, and her ability to continue her affair in peace and no guilt. She wants you to disappear so she can enjoy her treachery in try to gain back her peace of mind...forget how she got there. That's the best reason of all to continue what you're doing.


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## land2634

More oddity tonight. She is at her mom's tonight. She must not have full-fledged moved in with him. I don't really know what this means, but like you said, I will just continue on a path toward trying to end the affair. Only time will tell.


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## Nobody123

Land,
I went through your entire 25 pages of posts and I'm really sorry about the turn of events.

I know it hurts and it is after the fact, but exposure of an affair to everyone including a work place might not lead to a happy ending. When too many people get involved, it becomes messy. Friends and families start taking sides and pretty soon, pride and hurt gets in the way of reconciliation. 

The notion of making her life miserable will shame her to self-realization of her mistake or submission to end the affair doesn’t seem to be effective. Women are often driven by their heart, not their head; self-preservation can cloud their judgment since she is now in a single-minded crusade with her support group to eliminate the imminent source of her torment, which is identified to be you, instead of the OM. For your and her peace of mind, you might want to consider granting her wish and sign the divorce paper. There is no point of prolonging the misery if she doesn’t love you anymore. You deserve someone who will respect you, treat you right and love you wholeheartedly. If she still has feelings for you, the potential finality of the divorce will sink in and she will rethink the consequences of permanently losing you. All the good things and memories that she once shared with you will come back and the possibility of another woman in your life will start haunting her. Women are no dummies but they turn vicious when they are cornered. Set them free and they might come to their senses.


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## land2634

Well, the weekend has come and gone. It wasn't too bad, but I never got a response from her about her birthday card. I'll just put it in the mail. I feel pretty stepped on right now. While I have continued to make sure she has health coverage and take care of things like make sure her student loan consolidation is on the right track, she can't even respond to an e-mail when I went out of my way to acknowledge her birthday.

I'm not even upset, but it just reminds me how deep into the fog she is right now. She doesn't even know which way is up.


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## Affaircare

Land~

I believe Plan B/No Contact may be coming up for you somewhat soonish, so you may want to begin now to get a few things in order such as contemplating when to end her health insurance and student loan payment. I do not say this to be mean to your wife, but rather as a natural consequence of her choice to continue the affair. 

If you two were to divorce, you'd no longer be her spouse and be under NO OBLIGATION whatsoever to provide for her health care or pay her student loan. That is one need YOU meet that the OM can not, and if she is insistent upon refusing you, she is refusing your health care and paying her debts. 

Soooo...I would suggest contemplating when/how you'll allow her to experience the consequence of her decision to continue the affair. Maybe when it's been 3 months or 6 months since she moved out? And by the way, I have NO DOUBT that she will somehow blame you or say you're being mean...but the fact of the matter is that if she wants your health care and your student loan payment, she could always choose to end the affair and honor her vows by returning to you. If she chooses the affair, she chooses no health care and no debt payments! Her choice.


----------



## Feelingalone

Land,

I don't comment much on your thread although I've been keeping tabs on it since the beginning. The one thing I'd like you to think about is to lower your expectations of anything in return from your w. I wouldn't expect anything in return from any of your gestures. It won't happen and obviously, although you state otherwise, does get to you.

Expectations or seeking affirmation from your w will only lead to your own pain. Let go of any expectations ..... You don't need her affirmations........


----------



## land2634

I actually gave the issue a thought earlier. While I no longer make the loan payments (I just made sure everything was squared away), my battle has been on the health insurance. I realize that by doing so, I would be merely letting her see the consequences, but at the same time, I'm not sure I could forgive myself for her not being able to get her health issues taken care of. I know this has all been her decision, but I guess I still feel as if I have to make sure her health is fine. As much as she has done, I guess I'm not quite at the point where I would be willing to see her physically suffer because I want the affair to end. It's a really difficult decision for me because truthfully, I would still give myself up for her... even after all the hurt and pain.


----------



## Tanelornpete

> I'm not sure I could forgive myself for her not being able to get her health issues taken care of. I know this has all been her decision, but I guess I still feel as if I have to make sure her health is fine. As much as she has done, I guess I'm not quite at the point where I would be willing to see her physically suffer because I want the affair to end. It's a really difficult decision for me because truthfully, I would still give myself up for her... even after all the hurt and pain.


This has nothing to do with you giving yourself - for your wife. That is both moral and normal. The issue is that she has another man to take care of her, no? On top of that, she can take care of herself. She just doesn't want to. Not being mean here, its the facts, as hard as they sound.

As long as she has you there to make sure she is healthy for her love affair, _to that extent_ she will be less inclined to consider the consequences. You will ALWAYS be there to help her with her health, if she returns to the marriage. But she has chosen another man. If he were honorable at all, he'd be doing the same thing, no? So what will this teach her about this guy?


----------



## Pam

Does she have a pre-existing condition? I confess I didn't pay attention to details like that. If she does, and there is any chance at all that she'll return to the marriage, there could be a problem in getting her re-insured. I am old enough not to know fine details on that, and how Obama's new healthcare will affect it, but it's something I always worried about with my late husband's insurance coverage.

Not sure what I would advise in this; you want her to recognize consequences for sure, but you also need to protect yourself in the future if there's any chance.


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## turnera

What if you just tell her how much you are paying for her portion of the healthcare, and tell her that if she's not coming back to the marriage, you will keep her on your plan - *IF* she pays her portion, at least until you are divorced. But let her know that if she declines, you will honor her wishes to let her have her own life by letting her find her own insurance.

Might be a good wakeup call. And it makes you more attractive by showing you respect yourself.


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## land2634

Well, if I go that route, I'll likely go all the way. The thing is, with all the recent health care legislation, I am able to get back on my dad's health insurance policy through his job for another two years. Since my younger brother is already on it as a dependent, it quite literally costs him nothing more to add me back on there, and the coverage is better than what I have now anyways.

The current policy is under my name, so if I go this route, I quite literally have no need for the close to $200 expense each month, about half of which is hers. If I take myself off the policy, it removes her completely as well. Honestly, I'm just tired of being walked on. Her and Jim sat in the break room together with my friend that works there again yesterday, both gloating purposely about how great their weekend had been. Just really disrespectful. She seems to become a more evil-to-the-core person each and every day she's around him.


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## turnera

IDK, I just don't like giving to people who rubs things in my face.


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## Pam

No, I think I would just go back on dad's insurance; but make sure you are covered on that before you cancel yours completely. Sorry I even considered suggesting anything else, guess I was thinking there was some chance for your marriage, but I don't believe there is.


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## iamnottheonlyone

Are you feeling a little like a doormat? Either she pays or you cancel the insurance and go to your dad's. If she gripes, just cancel and go to your dad's. She gets some twisted pleasure in manipulating you. Now she's in control. Take back your life.


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## AFEH

Land, there are 382 posts in 26 pages! In those 4 months I can’t see you are anywhere nearer at all getting what you want following the process/strategy that you have been taking. In fact you are getting further and further away from what you want. Has all that time, effort and energy really been wasted?

Keep doing the same things, what do we get? The same results. Plus we become seriously disenchanted and seriously de energised.

The quality of our life is directly proportional to the quality of the questions we ask ourselves. When things are tough we have to ask ourselves tough questions.

Do you not think it high time you totally changed your strategy in all this?

Bob


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## josh1081

I say go for it land...not only are you saving $200 a month, something to improve yourself, but you are also severing a partila tie that binds. It may jolt her into reason or give you the look into a reality that isn't going to change. I don't see this working out badly. Worst case is that things stay the same IMO
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## land2634

AFEH said:


> Land, there are 382 posts in 26 pages! In those 4 months I can’t see you are anywhere nearer at all getting what you want following the process/strategy that you have been taking. In fact you are getting further and further away from what you want. Has all that time, effort and energy really been wasted?
> 
> Keep doing the same things, what do we get? The same results. Plus we become seriously disenchanted and seriously de energised.
> 
> The quality of our life is directly proportional to the quality of the questions we ask ourselves. When things are tough we have to ask ourselves tough questions.
> 
> Do you not think it high time you totally changed your strategy in all this?
> 
> Bob


Quite honestly, at the very least, I can see that the biggest obstacle at this point is her pride. As far as changing my strategy, I'm not really sure what other option I have or have ever had. As far as I can tell, she would have left and everything whether or not I followed the path I am on. Plus, if I hadn't taken this course, people that I call friends likely would have stopped talking to me since they work with her and would be believing her lies of abuse and whatnot that she threw out there in the beginning. She would still be enjoying the secretive backdrop while I would get all of the consequences. At least this way, I'm better off than I was 4 months ago. I feel very confident in saying that much.


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## Nattu_Khattu

land2634 said:


> Quite honestly, at the very least, I can see that the biggest obstacle at this point is her pride. As far as changing my strategy, I'm not really sure what other option I have or have ever had. As far as I can tell, she would have left and everything whether or not I followed the path I am on. Plus, if I hadn't taken this course, people that I call friends likely would have stopped talking to me since they work with her and would be believing her lies of abuse and whatnot that she threw out there in the beginning. She would still be enjoying the secretive backdrop while I would get all of the consequences. At least this way, I'm better off than I was 4 months ago. I feel very confident in saying that much.



I agree with you Land as i feel i am on the same boat as you. Except that my wife has not filed for a divorce yet and i have a 2 yo kid. My wife has accused me of everything going wrong including physically abusing her which is not true. Thanks to this forum now family and friends close to her/me have heard my version of the story. 

Carry on this path mate either you win her back or don't at least you know you went down fighting. You will have no regrets of not having tried to make it work.


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## Nobody123

Please make sure that you can still be covered under your dad's policy as a dependent. In most medical insurance policies, a dependent child lives at home or at college, is unmarried and under a certain age. 

One of the largest buyers of group health insurance, the Federal Employees health Benefits Program, considers unmarried children under age 22 dependents. Many group plans cover older children, under age 25 or 24 who are attending an accredited education instituation. 

Since you are married, do not live at home and have a full time job, the definition of a dependent might not apply to you.


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## land2634

Yes, that was my initial thought as well, but apparently the health care legislation has raised that age to 26. I'll definitely be checking before I make the move, but this is what his workplace is saying, so we'll see.



Nobody123 said:


> Please make sure that you can still be covered under your dad's policy as a dependent. In most medical insurance policies, a dependent child lives at home or at college, is unmarried and under a certain age.
> 
> One of the largest buyers of group health insurance, the Federal Employees health Benefits Program, considers unmarried children under age 22 dependents. Many group plans cover older children, under age 25 or 24 who are attending an accredited education instituation.
> 
> Since you are married, do not live at home and have a full time job, the definition of a dependent might not apply to you.


----------



## bestplayer

land2634 said:


> Yes, that was my initial thought as well, but apparently the health care legislation has raised that age to 26. I'll definitely be checking before I make the move, but this is what his workplace is saying, so we'll see.


land2634 , Is it possible that to discuss this health care issue you two can meet in person ? Looks like she never gave you a chance to have a heart-to -heart talk with her which at least could have possibly helped to clear some other doubts or misunderstandings between you . May be you can ask her why is she deliberately trying to hurt you when all you did is love her ? Dont you need the answer ?


Best of luck


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## land2634

Just got an e-mail from my wife:

_I need to take those papers to the court so if you could mail or stick them in moms mailbox. There is a reason I didn't answer your email on my birthday. The only gift you could of possibly given me was my dog so no I don't want anything from you._

Last I checked, she left, not me. The dog is at home where he should be and it isn't my problem she left if she wants him.

I'm not signing this waiver of service either. The more I read on it, the more I see that I would quite literally be signing away ALL of my rights through the process. Part of me wants to ignore the e-mail, but the other part wants to reply and say, "If you want to talk, you have my number."

Her blatant disrespect for anything going against adultery just continues to amaze me, even as she still denies that this is an affair at all.


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## turnera

Your response: "What papers? And Dog is at home, where he belongs. If you don't want to live at home, that is your choice. Love, Land"


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## Feelingalone

Land,

Stay strong. Do not sign anything. If she gets mad -- so what. She is already "mad" at you right? Mad in the sense of having an affair. She can't do anythiing more to you than that in my opinion. 

Don't make it easy on her at all at this point. Be calm, polite and resolute when dealing with her. And if she gets mad -- just say that there are consequences to everyones actions and this is a consequence of yours (don't say what the action is) and that you are still willing to work on the marriage, just without anyone else being involved.


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## land2634

Thanks. At this point, I think I'm beyond worrying about her getting mad. I've sort of accepted that just about anything that doesn't promote the affair will make her mad. Oh well, I'm just doing what I have to do. Even if I was in agreement with a divorce, I wouldn't be signing away all my rights during the process.



Feelingalone said:


> Land,
> 
> Stay strong. Do not sign anything. If she gets mad -- so what. She is already "mad" at you right? Mad in the sense of having an affair. She can't do anythiing more to you than that in my opinion.
> 
> Don't make it easy on her at all at this point. Be calm, polite and resolute when dealing with her. And if she gets mad -- just say that there are consequences to everyones actions and this is a consequence of yours (don't say what the action is) and that you are still willing to work on the marriage, just without anyone else being involved.


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## Affaircare

"Dear Mrs. Land~

I do not intend to sign away my rights to anything. My attorney has advised me it is not wise to sign away my rights. OUR dog is at our home, where he lives, and so is your husband. If you wish to have the pleasure of our dog, you are welcome to share the marital home with us. If you abandon the dog, that is your decision and one of the costs of choosing blatant adultery.

Love, 

Mr. Land"


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## Affaircare

P.S. She gave you the papers approximately 9/20. If she filed at the courthouse approximately 9/20 that means she likely has 30 days to "serve" you. If you do not sign the papers between now and 10/20 she would have to file again. So she will likely attempt to exert a lot of pressure in the next couple days to get that "Waiver of Service" signed. And by the way, please re-read it land...in layman's terms it does not sign away your rights during the rest of the divorce process--it just says that you agree to accept "service" from her and won't make her pay someone to serve you. You can have any lawyer explain that to you (but I still wouldn't sign it).


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## turnera

AC, you always do better with my words, lol. I like her version better, land.


----------



## land2634

Affaircare said:


> P.S. She gave you the papers approximately 9/20. If she filed at the courthouse approximately 9/20 that means she likely has 30 days to "serve" you. If you do not sign the papers between now and 10/20 she would have to file again. So she will likely attempt to exert a lot of pressure in the next couple days to get that "Waiver of Service" signed. And by the way, please re-read it land...in layman's terms it does not sign away your rights during the rest of the divorce process--it just says that you agree to accept "service" from her and won't make her pay someone to serve you. You can have any lawyer explain that to you (but I still wouldn't sign it).


See, that's the thing: It includes some phrases that indicate that everything else moving forward will proceed without me and that by signing the waiver of service, I am essentially calling myself present for every part of the process until the finalization. I was doing some reading online, and it seems that more and more of these waiver of service forms include such wording in an effort to "trick" one spouse into basically letting the other control the entire process.

I'm still of the mindset that I honestly think she will start seeing things a little differently once the affair begins to fizzle out. Whether she starts acting different is another matter. Either way, I've got plenty of patience. Besides, I'm going to be at Game 2 of the ALCS in Arlington tomorrow to root on the Rangers with a friend! Funny thing is, this guy actually works under Jim and a few short feet away from my wife. Neither of them have any clue that he gives me a temperature reading on the affair almost daily.


----------



## land2634

turnera said:


> AC, you always do better with my words, lol. I like her version better, land.


Yeah, I'll definitely be sending that to her. I like making her wait for a response. Even though my phone alerts me to the e-mail as soon as she sends it, I figure I'll build the suspense a little and make her wait. At this point, all I've got is time. I'm enjoying myself, finding ways to have fun (like the baseball game tomorrow), and have plenty of good friends that are right there with me. I'm definitely much better off than I was the day I made my first post on this site. That day, I remember feeling desperate and helpless. Now, no matter the outcome, I feel in control again on so many different levels.


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## iamnottheonlyone

I kind of like T's better. It has a bit of sassiness in it. But I would go with AC's if I was feeling serious.


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## Affaircare

land2634 said:


> See, that's the thing: It includes some phrases that indicate that everything else moving forward will proceed without me and that by signing the waiver of service, I am essentially calling myself present for every part of the process until the finalization. I was doing some reading online, and it seems that more and more of these waiver of service forms include such wording in an effort to "trick" one spouse into basically letting the other control the entire process.


YOWZA!  I'm glad you caught that "trick"!  GEEZ what are people thinking these days? I hadn't heard of that before this so I'm also glad you alerted me to this new :bsflag: that people try to pull. Boy there's always something, isn't there? MAN! 



> I'm still of the mindset that I honestly think she will start seeing things a little differently once the affair begins to fizzle out. Whether she starts acting different is another matter. Either way, I've got plenty of patience. Besides, I'm going to be at Game 2 of the ALCS in Arlington tomorrow to root on the Rangers with a friend! Funny thing is, this guy actually works under Jim and a few short feet away from my wife. Neither of them have any clue that he gives me a temperature reading on the affair almost daily.


In the end that is the question--whether she'll start to act different. Both my ex and Dear Hubby's ex realized, years later, what they had done and even apologized, but neither one did any personal work to change, grow, or do anything differently--so they are BOTH still the same person they were. To be completely honest, that is a source of real sorrow to us both, I think, but you can not "make" someone be a responsible parent, a good spouse or a better person.  Sometimes it's more painful for them to face themselves than it is to lose us.


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## land2634

Yeah, it includes phrases such as:

"I enter my appearance in this case for all purposes."

"I waive the making of a record of testimony in this case."

"I agree that this case may be taken up and considered by the Court without further notice to me."

It all seems a bit ridiculous to me. I was actually in the process of responding to her e-mail this evening, and as I was about to hit send, another e-mail came through from her.

"Are you gonna answer me?"

I could go so many ways with this it's ridiculous. First... 10 hours without a response and she's going crazy?

Second... let me get this straight: I can message her, and she can even acknowledge that she purposely ignored such message about her birthday, yet when she sends me a message, I'm supposed to drop my entire life and respond that instant? Really, at this point, I'm just going to wait until well into the weekend to respond, if at all. It's funny how when it's something SHE wants, she expects a response. Here I am still taking care of a lot for her and she can't even respect me enough to respond and accept a birthday gift that I took time and thought to prepare for her... I'm not sure the term "evil twin" is really doing this justice right now...


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## michzz

communicate strictly through a lawyer.

The battle is joined.


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## turnera

I think she's on high alert, cos her 30 days are about up.


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## land2634

So I'm about to finally respond to her since I've been busy this weekend. Any ideas on how I can subtly point out to her that she is expecting me to respond to her instantly while she actually acknowledged purposely ignoring me? I just thought that was really ridiculous.

Heh, she's going to be really mad that I won't just sign this waiver. To be completely honest, I'm not entirely sure she even realizes what it is she gave me. Someone just told her I needed to sign it to make the process easier. Either that, or she has decided I'm stupid, which I know she wouldn't try to go with because she knows I've always had a tendency to analyze and over-analyze everything.


----------



## Affaircare

So just to recap, her last emails were: 

_"I need to take those papers to the court so if you could mail or stick them in moms mailbox. There is a reason I didn't answer your email on my birthday. The only gift you could of possibly given me was my dog so no I don't want anything from you." _

and...

_"Are you gonna answer me?"_

I believe I would reply at about 11pm tonight and say: ''There is a reason I didn't answer your email about the papers. I am faithful and have no desire to agree to end the marriage. The only gift you could possibly give me is ending your adultery and coming home to me and the dog. So no, I don't intend to sign or leave papers in your mom's mailbox."

I added a little sassiness for IANTOO. 

Honestly, land, you could write pretty much anything from "I respectfully decline to sign my rights away" to a long diatribe on her infidelity and how hypocritical it is for her to purposely ignore YOUR email but when she wants something she expects you to answer immediately. However, I doubt any of it (even my sassy wording) will reach through to her reason so that she suddenly sees that she's being a hypocrite. Thus honestly--I suggest that you write what you want as long as it's TRUE and said in love.


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## land2634

Excellent, I will do that then. I have no desire to be rude, but I won't shy away from truth either. I can handle being respectful and loving to her. I will use your method of respectfully letting her know how her actions are making me feel and go from there. Time to use some of the things I've learned!



Affaircare said:


> So just to recap, her last emails were:
> 
> _"I need to take those papers to the court so if you could mail or stick them in moms mailbox. There is a reason I didn't answer your email on my birthday. The only gift you could of possibly given me was my dog so no I don't want anything from you." _
> 
> and...
> 
> _"Are you gonna answer me?"_
> 
> I believe I would reply at about 11pm tonight and say: ''There is a reason I didn't answer your email about the papers. I am faithful and have no desire to agree to end the marriage. The only gift you could possibly give me is ending your adultery and coming home to me and the dog. So no, I don't intend to sign or leave papers in your mom's mailbox."
> 
> I added a little sassiness for IANTOO.
> 
> Honestly, land, you could write pretty much anything from "I respectfully decline to sign my rights away" to a long diatribe on her infidelity and how hypocritical it is for her to purposely ignore YOUR email but when she wants something she expects you to answer immediately. However, I doubt any of it (even my sassy wording) will reach through to her reason so that she suddenly sees that she's being a hypocrite. Thus honestly--I suggest that you write what you want as long as it's TRUE and said in love.


----------



## land2634

How about this?


_Wife,

There is a reason I didn't answer your email about the papers. I am faithful and have no desire to agree to end the marriage. The only gift you could possibly give me is ending your adultery and coming home to Callaway and myself. So no, I don't intend to sign or leave papers in your mom's mailbox.

I do not intend to sign away my rights to anything the way this form would have me do. I have been advised that it is not wise to sign away those rights, so I will respectfully decline to sign them away. OUR dog is still part of his family, where he lives, and so is your husband. If you wish to have the pleasure of the dog, you are welcome to share a marital home with us. If you abandon the dog, that is your decision and one of the costs of choosing your affair. I have taken a lot of steps to work on being a better husband, but I cannot do it alone. I simply disagree with the idea that ending our marriage is the answer to our problems.

I spent some time and effort preparing a birthday gift for you. Regardless of what you may think, you are still my wife, and I wouldn't be a very good husband to not acknowledge your birthday, even with everything that has been going on. When you ignored me and then expected me to respond to your e-mails within hours, it made me feel very used.

I’m sorry for my failures in the past as a husband. I am a much better person for being able to admit my faults and work toward improving on those things. I still believe in our marriage and what it stands for and know we can build a very loving and caring relationship. The first step would be ending your affair and coming back to the marriage so that we can work on it. I can’t promise it would be easy, but I do know that there are plenty of people around us to love and support us and there are many counselors available that can help us sort through our personal and marital issues.

I still love you as much as the day I married you, if not more. While I do get upset at times, I have made the choice to continue to show you love and care as you are my wife and I made a covenant with you and God that I intend to stand by. I love you.

Land_


----------



## Tanelornpete

VERY good. I wouldn't change a word.


----------



## iamnottheonlyone

Well expressed. Delivered right from the heart. And with confidence.


----------



## AFEH

land2634 said:


> How about this?
> 
> 
> _Wife,
> 
> There is a reason I didn't answer your email about the papers. I am faithful and have no desire to agree to end the marriage. The only gift you could possibly give me is ending your adultery and coming home to Callaway and myself. So no, I don't intend to sign or leave papers in your mom's mailbox.
> 
> I do not intend to sign away my rights to anything the way this form would have me do. I have been advised that it is not wise to sign away those rights, so I will respectfully decline to sign them away. OUR dog is still part of his family, where he lives, and so is your husband. If you wish to have the pleasure of the dog, you are welcome to share a marital home with us. If you abandon the dog, that is your decision and one of the costs of choosing your affair. I have taken a lot of steps to work on being a better husband, but I cannot do it alone. I simply disagree with the idea that ending our marriage is the answer to our problems.
> 
> I spent some time and effort preparing a birthday gift for you. Regardless of what you may think, you are still my wife, and I wouldn't be a very good husband to not acknowledge your birthday, even with everything that has been going on. When you ignored me and then expected me to respond to your e-mails within hours, it made me feel very used.
> 
> I’m sorry for my failures in the past as a husband. I am a much better person for being able to admit my faults and work toward improving on those things. I still believe in our marriage and what it stands for and know we can build a very loving and caring relationship. The first step would be ending your affair and coming back to the marriage so that we can work on it. I can’t promise it would be easy, but I do know that there are plenty of people around us to love and support us and there are many counselors available that can help us sort through our personal and marital issues.
> 
> I still love you as much as the day I married you, if not more. While I do get upset at times, I have made the choice to continue to show you love and care as you are my wife and I made a covenant with you and God that I intend to stand by. I love you.
> 
> Land_


With respect land2634, I would never use God or the dog as things to try and get my wife back to me. Plus the vows you took with your wife have zero meaning for her.

Bob


----------



## land2634

AFEH said:


> With respect land2634, I would never use God or the dog as things to try and get my wife back to me. Plus the vows you took with your wife have zero meaning for her.
> 
> Bob


Keep in mind that it isn't about trying to use the dog to get her back. Previously, she has stated how angry she is that I have the dog after SHE left. She has tried to turn that around on me, including in her most recent e-mails. My response was simply one that had a reminder that she was the one that chose to leave and that is why the dog is with me.

As far as God goes, our faith is the entire basis on which we even started dating. Just because she may have fallen away from that and the vows we both took doesn't mean they didn't happen. If our marriage is to ever recover, I know that a heavy emphasis will need to be placed on our faith once again.


----------



## turnera

I think it's totally appropriate to include God in the letter, especially due to their level of faith. You have to know that what she's doing is having some MAJOR conflict in her subconscious, and bringing up the point that she has BROKEN her covenant...well, there's just no way to sugar coat that. 

Sometimes for people to hit rock bottom - and thus learn and grow - they have to have the utter devastation of their acts thrust in their face.


----------



## AFEH

turnera said:


> I think it's totally appropriate to include God in the letter, especially due to their level of faith. You have to know that what she's doing is having some MAJOR conflict in her subconscious, and bringing up the point that she has BROKEN her covenant...well, there's just no way to sugar coat that.
> 
> Sometimes for people to hit rock bottom - and thus learn and grow - they have to have the utter devastation of their acts thrust in their face.


Personally I think the letter will drive her even further away. In fact I can’t see anything that’s been done has resulted in her taking even a little baby step back to her husband. Not one little step.

But surely in these things it’s good and healthy to have different opinions and to voice them? 

The things that land is trying to get his wife back with are of no value to his wife. If there is value there, being with TOM eclipses those values. In a way they are second rate values, not primary values to his wife.

Bob


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## turnera

Actually, we don't know WHAT she is thinking. We also don't have her side of the story. I've seen cases where a wayward is practically in the court room for divorce, and a simple statement from a child changed their mind around completely and saved the marriage. But above all, no matter WHAT he says, it needs to be what's in his heart, not something designed to get the most positive result. Because if she does leave, he needs to know he stayed true to himself.


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## AFEH

I’m not in disagreement with any of that, I don’t dispute any of it all Turnera.

I would think though that by now Land would have sat down with his wife and got to a point where he knows the whys of it. If he hasn’t then he is somewhat guilty of ignoring her needs. And if he doesn’t know those he hasn’t got a chance.

Are you saying Land doesn’t want his wife back? It seems to me he’s going the right way about it if that is indeed his plan.

There are other things to do while still remaining true to oneself.

Bob


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## turnera

I think we're miscommunicating. I said we don't know what she's thinking because you are assigning likely reactions to her when you can't know what she thinks, cares about, or may do. And honestly, neither does Land. So all Land can do is tell her what he feels, and let her do with it what she will.

I guess we disagree in the amount of pushback a BS should give his WS. I believe that the BS owes it to his WS to keep what the affair is doing to him at the forefront in communications with WS, in a nonconfrontational way.

Those BSs who have tried to tiptoe around the freakin' big elephant in the room usually only succeed in helping the WS lose respect for him. Those BHs who show a backbone - and politely point out the ramifications of WW's affair on him - are, IMO, more attractive, and what the WW usually remembers: that he will NOT be her doormat, he has too much self-respect for that, and she can either choose only one man, or they can agree to move on. It's when we get into the nitty-gritty of trying to compose messages that elicit a particular response, or choose just the right flower, or whatever, that we start forgetting the purpose of fighting the affair - which IMO is to remind the WS that, while the BS WANTS that person back, they will NOT take him/her back with an affair in tow. 

Land pointing out the damage her affair has caused...will it make her bristly? Maybe. But it also may be the nudge she needs if she's sitting on the fence. I've yet to see a wayward come home just because the betrayed is being extra nice.

I'm in a unique position here because I've never been cheated on, as opposed to most of you. I know you've been through a horrendous experience; I'm just asking you to ask yourself whether you are personifying Land's situation through your own.

Anyway, that was just a clarification. Sorry to waste your bandwidth, Land.


----------



## land2634

My wife is not yet at a point where she will sit down and talk with me. She ignored my e-mail on her birthday, so she definitely isn't going to sit down and have tea, if that makes sense. She's still VERY much entrenched in her affair; so much so that she's in denial as to the fact that it is an affair at all. Given that, I'm not really sure I've had too many opportunities to meet her needs. The chances I am given, I am doing what I can, but those are very scarce right now as she tries to keep the affair afloat.



AFEH said:


> I’m not in disagreement with any of that, I don’t dispute any of it all Turnera.
> 
> I would think though that by now Land would have sat down with his wife and got to a point where he knows the whys of it. If he hasn’t then he is somewhat guilty of ignoring her needs. And if he doesn’t know those he hasn’t got a chance.
> 
> Are you saying Land doesn’t want his wife back? It seems to me he’s going the right way about it if that is indeed his plan.
> 
> There are other things to do while still remaining true to oneself.
> 
> Bob


----------



## Tanelornpete

> My wife is not yet at a point where she will sit down and talk with me. She ignored my e-mail on her birthday, so she definitely isn't going to sit down and have tea, if that makes sense. She's still VERY much entrenched in her affair; so much so that she's in denial as to the fact that it is an affair at all. Given that, I'm not really sure I've had too many opportunities to meet her needs. The chances I am given, I am doing what I can, but those are very scarce right now as she tries to keep the affair afloat.


Land, as far as you've been able, you've shown her. And she sees it. What you offer her is the opportunity to walk back into her marriage - something she committed to long ago, with the knowledge that things are changing, and that her needs can be met there - should she choose. 

Given that, any suggestion that you try to disguise, or modify your boundaries is counterproductive, over the long run. You easily could say things that will appeal to her, make her change her mind about you - but if those things counteract or contradict reality when the marriage is in recovery, all you will do is appear to be dishonest, or conniving. 

Your position is sound: 'this is our marriage, and these are my boundaries.' She is free to chose them or not. In the end, knowing that YOU did what was _right _trumps anything else. And you do know what is right. 

And, one final note: she is doing all she can to justify her affair (and the choices she has made that directly contradict what she knows to be true) - and as such, _even if you could meet her EVERY need, she will choose the Other Man. At this point, the issue is to stay the man who can meet her needs, and at the same time make correct moral choices - and let her compare you two over time..._


----------



## AFEH

land2634 said:


> My wife is not yet at a point where she will sit down and talk with me. She ignored my e-mail on her birthday, so she definitely isn't going to sit down and have tea, if that makes sense. She's still VERY much entrenched in her affair; so much so that she's in denial as to the fact that it is an affair at all. Given that, I'm not really sure I've had too many opportunities to meet her needs. The chances I am given, I am doing what I can, but those are very scarce right now as she tries to keep the affair afloat.


You haven't even asked your wife to sit down and talk with you? My goodness.

Land. Your wife KNOWS you are not hearing her.

I'm not saying meet her needs. Not at all. I am saying though .... know what they are.

Bob


----------



## AFEH

turnera said:


> I think we're miscommunicating. I said we don't know what she's thinking because you are assigning likely reactions to her when you can't know what she thinks, cares about, or may do. And honestly, neither does Land. So all Land can do is tell her what he feels, and let her do with it what she will.
> 
> I guess we disagree in the amount of pushback a BS should give his WS. I believe that the BS owes it to his WS to keep what the affair is doing to him at the forefront in communications with WS, in a nonconfrontational way.
> 
> Those BSs who have tried to tiptoe around the freakin' big elephant in the room usually only succeed in helping the WS lose respect for him. Those BHs who show a backbone - and politely point out the ramifications of WW's affair on him - are, IMO, more attractive, and what the WW usually remembers: that he will NOT be her doormat, he has too much self-respect for that, and she can either choose only one man, or they can agree to move on. It's when we get into the nitty-gritty of trying to compose messages that elicit a particular response, or choose just the right flower, or whatever, that we start forgetting the purpose of fighting the affair - which IMO is to remind the WS that, while the BS WANTS that person back, they will NOT take him/her back with an affair in tow.
> 
> Land pointing out the damage her affair has caused...will it make her bristly? Maybe. But it also may be the nudge she needs if she's sitting on the fence. I've yet to see a wayward come home just because the betrayed is being extra nice.
> 
> I'm in a unique position here because I've never been cheated on, as opposed to most of you. I know you've been through a horrendous experience; I'm just asking you to ask yourself whether you are personifying Land's situation through your own.
> 
> Anyway, that was just a clarification. Sorry to waste your bandwidth, Land.


Land is being way way too much of a doormat. You are all coaching him to be a Nice Guy.

Bob


----------



## land2634

Of course I've asked her and she turned me down. She's at a point where she doesn't want to hear anything that goes against her affair. It isn't due to a lack of trying on my part.

I'm confused as to exactly how anyone is coaching me to be a doormat. In your earlier post, you say I should sit down with her to talk, yet then say I'm a doormat. What would you have me do?

The macho attitude and tactic of beating my fists on my chest might work for some people, but it will never work for me. That isn't me at all, and I refuse to pretend as such. Marking my territory and acting like a fool will most definitely run my wife further away, and I feel comfortable saying I know that much about her.


----------



## josh1081

Land, what kind of a decision did you make about the insurance? I can sense that you are going to have a negative response to your well written letter. IMO after that point still helping pay for insurance is just an enabler and might be time to cover your loses there.
I do hope you get something positive out of the response though
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## land2634

I'll at least keep the insurance through the end of the year, because that's when I'll be able to switch back over. It will also mark 6 months since she left home. At that point, she should be coming pretty close to an enrollment period with the insurance from her job.


----------



## AFEH

land2634 said:


> Of course I've asked her and she turned me down. She's at a point where she doesn't want to hear anything that goes against her affair. It isn't due to a lack of trying on my part.
> 
> I'm confused as to exactly how anyone is coaching me to be a doormat. In your earlier post, you say I should sit down with her to talk, yet then say I'm a doormat. What would you have me do?
> 
> The macho attitude and tactic of beating my fists on my chest might work for some people, but it will never work for me. That isn't me at all, and I refuse to pretend as such. Marking my territory and acting like a fool will most definitely run my wife further away, and I feel comfortable saying I know that much about her.


There is none so blind as those that will not see.

Can’t even get you to see the water let alone lead you to it.

Your eyes are well and truly shut to anything that opposes what you think. It’s called being really stubborn. Your wife will know that and it's probably one of the key reasons she gave up on you.

It’s no wonder you lost your wife.

Bob


----------



## turnera

Bob, I'm confused, too. What exactly are you suggesting that he do?


----------



## AFEH

turnera said:


> Bob, I'm confused, too. What exactly are you suggesting that he do?


Well when you’re in a hole and it’s getting deeper and deeper (wife moving further and further away) you stop digging (you stop continuing with the same set of values and beliefs that dictated your behaviour and got you into the hole in the first place).

Then when somebody new comes along and offers you a ladder you at least take a look at the ladder and try and understand it even if at first you don’t grasp it and start climbing out of the hole you’ve dug. I think that’s even more important when the ladder is so different to the one currently in use as it offers lateral thinking.

And you most certainly don’t have a go at the guy who’s standing there at the top of the hole and trying to help you out with his particular ladder. Why? Because he’ll just take his ladder away, leave you in the hole and hope you’ll find your way out …. somehow.

And in my mind the very least you do is say thanks for trying to help me out.

What am I suggesting that he do? He ain’t listening, he’s not even prepared to look at my ladder let alone understand it. He is blind in that respect. They say the teacher appears when the pupil’s ready. Can’t see Land ever being ready for this particular teacher. I wish him luck.

Bob


----------



## land2634

If by saying I am stubborn you are referring to me sticking to a plan, then yes, I am stubborn. If you mean continuing to stand by my marriage vows, then yes, I am stubborn. If doctors gave up the first time a formula for a new drug didn't work, then none of us would have the type of medication we do.

You keep saying my eyes are closed and I won't listen, but here's the thing: as of yet, you haven't offered a solution of your own. I hate to put it so bluntly, but I really don't see any other way to go. If you aren't going to offer a solution or at least some constructive feedback, then don't come into the thread and throw accusations around as if somehow you know the reason my wife left me.


----------



## turnera

AFEH said:


> Well when you’re in a hole and it’s getting deeper and deeper (wife moving further and further away) you stop digging (you stop continuing with the same set of values and beliefs that dictated your behaviour and got you into the hole in the first place).
> 
> Then when somebody new comes along and offers you a ladder you at least take a look at the ladder and try and understand it even if at first you don’t grasp it and start climbing out of the hole you’ve dug. I think that’s even more important when the ladder is so different to the one currently in use as it offers lateral thinking.
> 
> And you most certainly don’t have a go at the guy who’s standing there at the top of the hole and trying to help you out with his particular ladder. Why? Because he’ll just take his ladder away, leave you in the hole and hope you’ll find your way out …. somehow.
> 
> And in my mind the very least you do is say thanks for trying to help me out.
> 
> What am I suggesting that he do? He ain’t listening, he’s not even prepared to look at my ladder let alone understand it. He is blind in that respect. They say the teacher appears when the pupil’s ready. Can’t see Land ever being ready for this particular teacher. I wish him luck.
> 
> Bob


 What is your ladder? Did I miss it? Can you give specifics for us nimwits who don't understand? All I got was don't be a doormat, but I don't see what you thought was being a doormat.


----------



## AFEH

turnera said:


> What is your ladder? Did I miss it? Can you give specifics for us nimwits who don't understand? All I got was don't be a doormat, but I don't see what you thought was being a doormat.


I would need to put some time and effort into helping Land out, metaphorically showing him the ladder’s steps one by one. There aren’t many steps. The first for example would be to show him a re written letter. To do that I would have to spend time and effort re writing the letter.

But Land declares time after time that he is sticking with his chosen course. If the rock wants to move I can show it the way I’d go about it. I can’t move immoveable lumps of rock. I gave up doing that a long time ago.

Plus he has other rocks around him, the “Can you give specifics for us nimwits who don't understand?”. In my opinion he is being “Mothered” and he’s lapping that mothering up.

Birds of a feather and all that. So it’s not just Land that I’d be trying to get to see the light, it’s a whole flock. I’m quite prepared to challenge Land’s thinking to help him out and I know he can feel my challenge. But I ain’t up for challenging flocks as that’s akin to trying to change a culture and we all know where that leads to.

A person has got to want to change. If they don’t I walk away.

I sincerely hope Land gets his wife back. But I will be most surprised, probably a little shocked if he indeed he does.

Bob


----------



## Feelingalone

Bob,

I agree that Land needs to change tactics; however, you haven't given specifics. Try showing him the first rung on your ladder. How bout that?

Not so much tactics in my opinion, but tone and demeanor. I believe he should drop the insurance on her as soon as possible. Stop saying he loves her at all, and minimize contact or go no contact at all and start living. What do you say Bob?


----------



## marilee

> you haven't offered a solution of your own.


Well, since you asked... 

Land, I've been reading this thread for months. I disagree with a lot of the advice you've been given, but have kept quiet. 

From what I can see, she isn't staying away because she doesn't understand where you stand and what you want. She knows where you stand. She isn't confused about your degree of love and devotion. She just doesn't care. 

Have you read Michelle Wiener Davis' information about the 180? It is invaluable. I'm not sure if we're supposed to post links, so just google that - "Michelle Wiener Davis 180." You'll see it referred to from countless sites that help people to recover from infidelity and, where possible, put their marriages back together. It is designed to help YOU move forward as a healthy person, and many times, helps your spouse to see you as a healthy person, instead of as a needy doormat. 

Here's a small excerpt:



> 180 makes you look strong. Strong is attractive.
> 
> 
> Don't pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore.
> No frequent phone calls.
> Don't point out "good points" in marriage.
> Don't follow her/him around the house.
> Don't encourage or initiate discussion about the future.
> Don't ask for help from the family members of your WS.
> Don't ask for reassurances.
> Don't buy or give gifts.
> Don't schedule dates together.
> Don't keep saying, "I Love You!" Because if you have a brain in your head, he/she is at this particular moment, not very loveable.
> Do more then act as if you are moving on with your life; begin moving on with your life!
> Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and independent.
> Don't always be so available? for anything! Your spouse will notice. More important, he/she will notice that you're missing.
> No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment? Make yourself be someone they would want to be around. Not a moody, needy, pathetic individual but a self assured individual secure in the knowledge that they have value.
> Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse. It's not always about you! More to the point, at present they just don't care!
> This is the kind of behavior that will cause you to be a much more attractive and mysterious individual. Further it SHOWS that you are NOT afraid to move on with your life. Still more important, it will burst their positive little bubble; the one in which they believe that they can always come back to you in case things don't work out with the OM/OW.


I think you are such a kind and decent man and admire your commitment to your marriage. But what you are doing now clearly isn't working, and it may be time to consider other strategies.

I mean, you can continue with what you're currently doing - just dragging it out for as long as you possibly can, if that's what floats your boat... But I really don't understand how you think this might ever win her back? She doesn't respect you. How could she? You don't seem to respect yourself.

For the love of Pete, STOP telling her that you love her. It is the last thing she should hear right now. She already knows and doesn't care. It does nothing but make her mutter "he just doesn't get it." Stop handing her all of that relationship power. She doesn't need reassurance that you love her. She needs a reality check.

Stop giving her money. Let her feel the financial consequences of choosing to leave the marriage. Stop enabling the affair by giving her money so that she can afford long weekends with the OM. 

Let the OM provide health insurance for her, if he loves her so much - OR - HEY - LET HER SEE THAT MAYBE HE DOESN'T. 

You're not on an even playing field with the OM. Right now all he has to do is sweet talk her and have sex with her - because you're still there to do all of the non-sexy health insurance type stuff. Let her actually see what life would truly be like without you. Is OM really willing to pick up that slack, or is he just using her for sex/fun/play? Why are you serving as his safety net?

How on earth can she miss you, if she never has the chance to miss what you have to offer?


> If you are doing something and you are getting a negative (or no) response, then do the opposite. ~ Michele Weiner-Davis


----------



## AFEH

Feelingalone said:


> Bob,
> 
> I agree that Land needs to change tactics; however, you haven't given specifics. Try showing him the first rung on your ladder. How bout that?
> 
> Not so much tactics in my opinion, but tone and demeanor. I believe he should drop the insurance on her as soon as possible. Stop saying he loves her at all, and minimize contact or go no contact at all and start living. What do you say Bob?


Land's on his own path FA and very assured of it he is too. Plus he’s the support of the others he’s listening to because they’re telling him what he wants to hear.

He’s assigning stuff to me which just doesn’t exist. I just can’t be bothered to untangle the following:.


“Of course I've asked her and she turned me down. She's at a point where she doesn't want to hear anything that goes against her affair. It isn't due to a lack of trying on my part.

I'm confused as to exactly how anyone is coaching me to be a doormat. In your earlier post, you say I should sit down with her to talk, yet then say I'm a doormat. What would you have me do?

The macho attitude and tactic of beating my fists on my chest might work for some people, but it will never work for me. That isn't me at all, and I refuse to pretend as such. Marking my territory and acting like a fool will most definitely run my wife further away, and I feel comfortable saying I know that much about her”.


----------



## turnera

You still didn't say what you want him to do.


----------



## marilee

> I would need to put some time and effort into helping Land out, metaphorically showing him the ladder’s steps one by one. There aren’t many steps. The first for example would be to show him a re written letter. To do that I would have to spend time and effort re writing the letter.


Dude, you just wrote six paragraphs about how you have all of this fantastic advice that he just won't listen to. Clearly, you have the time.

I'm pretty sure we're probably of a similar mind, but honestly, put up or shut up, as they say. No point in coming to his thread over and over again just to whine about how he won't listen to the advice you can't take the time to give him.


----------



## AFEH

marilee said:


> Dude, you just wrote six paragraphs about how you have all of this fantastic advice that he just won't listen to. Clearly, you have the time.
> 
> I'm pretty sure we're probably of a similar mind, but honestly, put up or shut up, as they say. No point in coming to his thread over and over again just to whine about how he won't listen to the advice you can't take the time to give him.


Lol Marilee. Got a response from some others who hadn't spoken up before didn't I. Yours was particularly good, better thought out than mine but is in the main what I’d have communicated just in a different way and FA is on the mark.

Me I’m out of it because of Land’s responses as I explained. I’m not going to even try and untangle those.

Bob


----------



## i_feel_broken

marilee/land,

having read the bullet points on 180 above I can more or less confirm this is what caused my wife to come back and end her affair. She has been at home for a few weeks now and things are okay. Not great but there are signs of recovery and plans for the future.

I think if from what my wife has told me, if she read the bullet points she would agree this is what works. I was pleasant if my wife contacted me and discussed plans with my son but apart from that I concentrated on myself and my son. I did this for probably 6 weeks. I became stronger and happier and certainly acted that way when i heard from or saw my wife.

Whenever she had my son I went out socialising, playing golf and generally having a good time. She couldn't help but ask about what I was up to so I told her in a nice way what a great time I was having. When I had my son I made sure we had the best time together. My son always wanted to be at home with me and my wife saw in me the person she fell in love with. the times she had my son at OM's house were difficult and and awkward for her.

I know better than most what you are trying to achieve with your plan and I did it for a good few months. It was useful as it showed my wife I still loved and cared about her no matter what and I think your wife knows that now also. Ultimately though I don't think my wife would have come back had I kept it up, it was the Plan A.5 that worked the best. That is - the stage before plan B which I think exists and is vital. The stage where she know how you feel but sees you are getting on with your life and not chasing her any more. She will then start to miss you and wonder what your doing. I think this is easier with a child as there is better opportunities but it will still have the same effect over time. You will also feel better in yourself.

You know your situation better than anyone and must make your own decision, I guess I lean more toward marilee than the others. 

Good luck with your plan, personally I think the continuation of this plan will not get your wife back but that is just my opinion and I don't know your wife. I think in a couple of years if she didn't come back and cuts you out all together you will get over her and then look back and think "why the **** did I pay her health insurance when she was ****ing another man". I see how you think this is showing her love but personally I think it is showing her your lack of strength and self respect.

All the best land. take care


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## Wisp

Broken: thanks for your update I have been dying to ask how you and your wife were doing

Land: I have been observing, watching and reviewing your post over time. You have done amazingly well, however the single biggest issue you have is the OM is still in the picture and your wife is totally absorbed by him. 

You need to assume the worst as she has adopted his behaviours and mirrors his personality. This is not going to break until she feels significant pain. 

There is one item you must do. CANCEL the healthcare with immediate effect; let your wife know after you have cancelled it.

She is using you, she is nasty to you, you must continuing being polite and respectful. Your wife is buying time at your cost, stop allowing her to abuse you. She knows you are a great guy that’s why she behaves like she does to you. The joke between her and the OM is that they are taking pleasure from the pain they are causing you, it fuels their bond. 

You need to make life uncomfortable for her and the lover. You have few if any tools in your arsenal. The affair man can start bailing her out financially and emotionally, over time he may step up to the mark and they may make it together, history of his behaviours does not suggest this.

Prepare yourself for a divorce, see a lawyer and be ready , one hopes even if you end up no longer being married that your wife can look back knowing that you are by far the better man and her shame will be with her for the rest of her life. 

I am one that has no objection to referring to God in your mails however in this case your wife does not respect His values so please be very clinical in your communications.


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## marilee

Land, I failed to mention in my reply that my husband did end his emotional affair. I attribute that to many things, including a great deal of luck, but feel the 180 played a huge role in helping him to see what he would be losing, how quickly he would lose it, and how very much he would end up regretting it. Seeing that (despite my love for him) I was absolutely ready to move on without him did WONDERS.


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## i_feel_broken

marilee said:


> Land, I failed to mention in my reply that my husband did end his emotional affair. I attribute that to many things, including a great deal of luck, but feel the 180 played a huge role in helping him to see what he would be losing, how quickly he would lose it, and how very much he would end up regretting it. Seeing that (despite my love for him) I was absolutely ready to move on without him did WONDERS.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## Guest8786

Guest8786 said:


> Oh dear
> Calm down, stop thinking about you and her.
> Start thinking about you and you and you.
> Honestly I feel the more she sees you desperate, the more you're pushing her away.
> She might start thinking again if you show her you're not interested any more. She might.
> May God bless you and help you.


Posted this long time ago, but land never took notice of whatever I said


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## Affaircare

As I understand it though, it's not that land disagrees with dropping her, but rather with current health insurance rules dictate that he can't just drop her immediately. Under IRS Sec. 104, Cafeteria plans, a person can not drop dependents without a "qualifying event." (The rule was made to prevent employees from not signing up for insurance unless something happened, and then signing up to cover just that event and then dropping the insurance again.) This is an example of the ways that health insurance differs from life insurance. Life you can change right away--today; health has certain "windows of opportunity"...usually once every year, once every 6 months, or when there is a life event such as a birth, marriage or finalized divorce

Thus it's my understanding the very nearest window to do this (drop her from his health insurance) will be in January. So yes, we all agree that she chose the affair and thus his health insurance should end--but the federal govt. has imposed laws that prevent him from doing it TODAY, and/or his employer benefits department may have additional policies that indicate when he can do the change.


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## turnera

I forget, land, have you already TOLD her that you are dropping her Jan. 1? IMO, just saying it gives all the effect you need; it doesn't have to happen today, but telling her today tells her that you're moving on.


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## land2634

I have not told her that yet. I should probably do it soon so that I don't spring it on her, as that may be rather inconsiderate.


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## iamnottheonlyone

Land is in Plan B as there is nothing else he can do. As you all know, nothing he can say will affect her. There is no contact now way way. She's in love. He is doing just about everything on the 180 and now she won't see it or care about it. He will do his own thing and she hers. He can ignore the divorce and not cooperate as JAR has done. It is a stalling tactic. It also shows he will not be the doormat. So at this point there is nothing else to do but sit back and wait for the affair to die a natural death or not.
As many of you know I have been dating A LOT. Almost all of these women are recently divorced in their late 40's and early 50's. Almost all "left" their husbands. The passion was gone they said. They desired to live life to the fullest. They have the attitude that they need to chase fun. They were bored. Looking for something different. Maybe they weren't looking for the butterflies, but once they felt them there was no turning back. Many have friends in the same situation. Most of them regret it. What they thought was magical (and maybe forever) was over in two or three years. They didn't get to keep the friends of the marriage. 
With Land, the marriage is a short one. I suspect she never fully committed. We all have our doubts when we marry or the doubts blossum once we are in it. She isn't going to change with his help. She has to play it out. He has chosen to back off. That is all he can do any way.


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## turnera

iam, that's a very good point you raise - that they leave, thinking the grass is greener, but it's astroturf. Makes it kind of hard to figure out what kind of woman would be worth dating (or safe to date) at our age, no?


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## land2634

Wanted to post an update as to what's been going on. It was an interesting weekend. I can see myself being tested and tempted, and it's something I can tell I will be battling for awhile.

My family and I had a wedding to go to about 3 hours away for a longtime family friend. One of my best friends for many years was there since it was his twin sister getting married. In any case, a little while after the reception began, I sat down to catch up with my friend, and he introduced me to his sister's former roommate. Since neither of us were really into dancing, as my friend came and went from the dance floor, we conversed at the table for a couple of hours. It was possibly the most intriguing conversation I've had with anyone in at least six months. Not only was I interested in her, she seemed genuinely interested in me. 

While I didn't go as far as even exchanging contact info with her, afterward it hit me: I had, at least for a couple of hours, enjoyed the company of a female, and even though I didn't, I was tempted to ask to exchange contact info to keep in touch. Quite honestly, she had a lot of characteristics that reminded me of my wife back when she was sweet, carefree, and full of joy. I was also able to gather from our time spent in conversation that she is a very strong Christian.

In any case, I just wanted to share. I'm not really sure how to handle these sort of situations because I definitely don't want to get caught up in the exact same fog my wife is in right now. I guess you could say that my need for conversation that has been left empty by my wife during her absence was filled for at least a couple of hours. I recognize that this is EXACTLY how affairs start and don't want to go down that road.


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## jar

For what its worth land I know how you feel I am fitting the same temptations as well.


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## avenrandom

I for one am glad to hear it Land. Even thought it's obvious you still are following your path (obvious in comparisons being made from this women to your wife), the innocent companionship / conversation is something you well deserved after her being gone four months now. The tone of the thread replies (I feel) really seems to have shifted into plan-B after everything she's putting you through, so it's good to hear from you.


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## Feelingalone

Land,

You need to live. And you were at the wedding. There is nothing wrong with that. Keep doing those things -- it will help you gain strength. Maybe I am wrong here, but the next time exchange information -- could be a great friend or something more.

That is part of living. You have self control -- that is apparent -- and that is what would keep it from being an "affair". But I say keep living.


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## iamnottheonlyone

As you know I am a bit further down that road. A good friend's sister's roommate is someone you should probably stay away from any way. I can tell you from my few weeks of dating experience is that the women you would be most interested in are the ones who don't want a "relationship" with a married man. Also, I have found that dating them reduces the risk of doing anything you might regret later. Someone who tells you they want to live life to the fullest is someone to stay away from.


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## land2634

Well, I think the time for Plan B is nearing. I may feel differently later today, but I will be actively drawing up a letter for the proper time. It's all hitting the fan and I'm quite honestly tired of it.

My student loan consolidation has FINALLY gone through and I need a simple signature from her in order for them to pull our tax return since we filed jointly. She is refusing to sign. Now her friends are spamming me on Facebook and e-mail telling me how terrible I am, etc. My faith of any hope of reconciliation is dwindling, and I've reached a point where I'm not sure I want that path anymore. It's an awkward place to be.

I will post my letter when I get it drafted, but in the meantime I'll just continue to better myself and stay busy. I will not, however, be dating, because I don't believe that to be the correct course of action at this stage.


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## turnera

So sorry.


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## land2634

You know what though? I have a stronger support group (both on here and from friends and family) than I ever thought possible. Really and truly, this has all been easier to deal with recently by following the plan that was laid out for me, and even if things don't work out, I'll be a better person for it. If nothing else, I'll surely have a better understanding of how to respectfully stand up for myself and my values.


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## iamnottheonlyone

Thank goodness for all of them. I know the feeling. I didn't know that people could give so much of themselves for something that is so personal and individual. These people on TAM are incredible. And it certainly sounds like your family and friends are. 
Now your W has surrounded herself with a bunch af nasty selfish people. Peas in a pod. When the fog lifts she will see things differently.


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## land2634

After last night, I believe I'm going to skip Plan B and throw in the towel. I truly believe it is too far gone to be salvaged at this point. There are simply too many people supporting blatant adultery in this case for the true consequences to ever be felt.

I received some more hate e-mail from my wife last night about how she's glad people know because they're happy for them being together and it's made it so much easier for them, etc.

If that wasn't bad enough, Jim's best friend contacted me saying, "We need to talk." He honestly tried to convince me that Jim isn't that bad of a guy and that the way I have handled things has made it worse. Yeah sure, blatant adultery isn't the problem, the betrayed spouse shedding light on it is! Either way, it's pretty obvious that this is being supported by far too many people.

I'm considering signing the papers she gave me if she will agree to getting me some of the possessions back first. I want the furniture back, the kitchenware (since I was always the one that cooked!), and the washing machine (she took the washer but left me the dryer...). Since the petition she filed includes no mention of possessions, I don't see where this could come back on me if we agree and sign something with a witness. If she truly wants this to be over, I feel like she will agree to this.

Thoughts?


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## turnera

I'd tell her to give you EVERYTHING back but her clothes. THEN you'll sign.


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## land2634

Good point.


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## Feelingalone

Make sure she knows you are cutting off insurance as of January 1 Land. Start asking for reimbursement now!!!!!


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## Feelingalone

Sorry -- the comments from his friend hit a nerve with me. Next time someone says anything about the way you've conducted yourself, make sure you say "Yes my actions are truly horrible compared to the adulterous actions of my wife and Jim."


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## land2634

Feelingalone said:


> Sorry -- the comments from his friend hit a nerve with me. Next time someone says anything about the way you've conducted yourself, make sure you say "Yes my actions are truly horrible compared to the adulterous actions of my wife and Jim."


That was pretty much my thought on it. It just amazes me that people find ways to justify it.


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## athena

Maybe this isn't the best time for me to post this, but I have finally read the entire thread. I was so wrapped up in the story and really feel for you guys I stayed up late just to get to the end.

However, I would like to play devil’s advocate. Land, you feel like you are ready to give up – that her behaviour and the way she treated you has changed your feelings and you didn’t know if you want to continue and get her back. Are you still attracted to her? Do you still feel emotions towards her?

The reason I ask is that I want to look at this from her perspective. Perhaps that is because I have similar feelings about my marriage. If you are able to give up the desire to fix things (I know it didn't happen overnight), what makes you think your wife shouldn't have given up? And if she doesn’t feel emotionally connected or attracted to you, the desire to work on the marriage would be even harder to muster up.

I really do empathize with your situation. I am trying to work through the lack of desire (emotionally and physically) I have for my husband. But I am suggesting that maybe, for her, that didn’t feel possible anymore and she was ready to move forward, just as you feel you now need to.

You are right in your feelings towards her - I do believe she treated you with such disrespect following D-Day and I really don't mean to add salt to a wound right now. I just want to offer up that it seems you both have lost interest in the marriage, and (even though she made so many other poor choices in handling it), is it worse that her disinterest happened first?

You fought a brave and courageous battle to restore your marriage. I am very impressed. I wish you luck in whatever you choose to do next.


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## Greentea

Woooow, this post is mighty!
I will study a few pages of this post per day.


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## Affaircare

Land~

We've been with you through this whole thing, right? Knowing all that's occurred and knowing what you've done and haven't done, here is what I think. I'm going to address you as a brother Christian because I know you are one, okay?

Here's what we know about divorce: 

God hates divorce (Malachi 2:16). That verse also says that God hates the spouse that brings violence into their home, and to my mind violence doesn't mean only "physical harm" but rather "actions that violate the safety of the covenant." God wants us to honor the covenant forever, and marriage is a covenant. 

God says that what He has joined together, let no man separate (Matt. 19:5-6). Well, you and your wife made a covenant before Him, and by your actions you have not been the one attempting to separate what God has put together. God doesn't want us to act in a way that tears apart our families, and I believe you have acted in a way to offer reconciliation and return as much as possible. To this day you still offer the option of forgiveness and returning to honor the covenant. 

Adultery is a moral ground for divorce (Matt. 19:9). Here this is the word straight from Jesus, whom we believe is the son of God. He himself says that "I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, *except for marital unfaithfulness*, and marries another woman commits adultery." From what I can see, it is clear that a man does have the moral grounds for a godly divorce when his wife has committed adultery. 

If an unbeliever abandons the marriage, that is also a moral ground for divorce (I Cor. 7:15). In the surrounding verses, we are pretty clearly told that if we do marry an unbeliever and they are happy to stay with us, we're instructed to stay and be a witness of godly living to them. But if the unbeliever leaves, we are very clearly told to let them go--we are not bound in that situation; God has called us to a life of PEACE. So it's pretty clear. 

Given all these facts, God is pretty clear that He wants us to honor our covenant and work through the hard times, even when they are with an unbeliever. He doesn't say our "happiness" is more important to Him than our obedience! But He does say that if your spouse commits adultery...if the spouse is an unbeliever and they abandon the marriage...that THEY are the ones who have broken the covenant, not you. In those instances it is morally allowed to file the paperwork to legalize what they have done by their actions--ALLOWED but not required. 

Thus, Land, I can honestly say that it will be EXTREMELY RARE for me to ever suggest or encourage someone to divorce. However, I can also honestly say that from everything I see, if you believe it's time I do believe you have done the right thing and I would support your decision. If that is what you decide to do, I would recommend reading the laws in your state about the divorce process--learn all that you can. List your assets and your debts, and look at your state's calculators for what you might be required to pay or have paid to you. Prepare YOUR OWN paperwork with a fair and reasonable offer, knowing that since this is deliberate separation of what should not be torn asunder, that you are going to lose some things and so is she. Once you have all that done, have an attorney look it over for obvious issues and then speak to her and say you're willing to divorce, you have a suggestion prepared, it's not cutting her out of her rights and would she look at it. If she agrees or can offer a suggested change you'd agree to--then you can co-file and be done. And yes, this is assuming the best, but if she wants a divorce and you offers something reasonable, she may go for it and be done. 

I will admit I'm sad, but mainly I'm sad for her that her heart has hardened so much that she refuses to do the right thing--but that is her choice. God will have her in His hand.


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## Quantumfilament

What a fantastic forum. I am so pleased to have found all your good people on here as like many of you I am going through a difficult time which I may post about later. 

For now though I would like to add my 2 pennies worth.

Land, I have absolute admiration for your persistence and fortitude in the face of constant humiliation and cruelty. This woman does not deserve you that is for sure mate.

As I read your post from start to finish, something that has kept me glued to the screen for a good 3 hours, I had a gut feeling right from the outset that this was not going to go well, or at least in the way you hoped. The advice you were given I felt was overly motherly no matter how well meaning. You are a man whether macho or not and women like strong men. They do not like to be chased by someone whom seems desperate or afraid. I think the advice you were given at the start to confront her with her bags packed was spot on. This would have been a knock-out blow, she would have been totally unprepared for that course of action and crumbled on the spot. Your demands for her to then cut all contact with the OM would have probably been met IMO. That was the first piece of good advice I agreed with, the second was the 180 list, absolutely brilliant, this IS the way to go IMO and something that I will be reading more about in my case. I think your wife was right when she said that bringing in everyone she knew had wrecked any chance of a reconciliation, how could she ever go back to the marriage she had and look these people in the eye knowing that they knew what she had done. This, I feel was possibly the worst piece of advice you were given.

For sure it is definitely over now, at least for some considerable time. I think you should now be just polite to her and honour any agreements such as the health insurance and then sort out the divorce and move on. It is too late for anything else at the moment. In a couple of years if you are not hooked up with someone else and if she is no longer with the OM perhaps you could get together again if you both discover you still have feelings for each other. For now, move on and enjoy your life mate, you are a good guy for sure, ok so you made some mistakes, don't we all, but did you beat her, abuse her, were you drunk, obscene, or worse? No, you were just a bloke trying to get by and your biggest mistake seems to be lack of attention to your wife and poor communication. We all expect our wives to know that we are doing our best to provide for the family, but the female brain doesn't necessarily work like that, their minds are more creative and they need to be drawn a bloody picture, they need to be told what you are doing and need to feel empowered to help, this you didn't do, much as I didn't do, and now we are both paying the price.

You will find someone else, you are young and this has been a very valuable life lesson, not only for you but for all those that have read your post. 

These are my conclusions, I am no expert, I could be wrong but there you go.

Move on mate and the very best of luck to you.


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## land2634

It's been awhile since I've posted, and things took an unexpected turn today. My wife and I were e-mailing back and forth about job listings (which developed from a prior conversation about how I will be requiring surgery on my foot and needed to get the crutches from her), and out of nowhere, I get this message from her:

_I had an interview the other day but im not gonna get my hopes up.

Im very sorry for everything. Im still not over it at all. I dont know if I ever will get over it all and if you think it hasnt hurt me, it has so much. Im so angry with how it all turned out. We were supposed to be happy together for a very long time and
i guess life doesnt work how you want it to a lot of times. I miss your family very much even after everything. Sometimes you wish you could just rewind from the beginning and try just a little harder. I have a lot of guilt built up and im sorry for hurting
you._


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## Feelingalone

That seems very heart felt from her. What are you thinking of doing Land?


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## notreadytoquit

Maybe the grass is not greener on the other side of the road?


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## land2634

I'm not sure... it really caught me off guard.

While it seems she isn't speaking from a foggy point of view, it also doesn't exactly seem as if she's saying she's ready to come back home to the marriage. I'm not sure which way to proceed. :scratchhead:


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## Feelingalone

Well you've always embraced the belief that you wanted to work on the marriage as long as she isn't with Jim specifically or anyone else. Maybe, and this is just to think before either AC or TP weigh in, that you should let her know that you still feel that way -- if you do. But that you are also ok moving on without her.


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## jar

That is a thoughtful email….Big change from some of the conversations you were having just the other week….

Is she looking for a new job to get away from the OM?

This is could be a huge step in the right direction.


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## land2634

jar said:


> That is a thoughtful email….Big change from some of the conversations you were having just the other week….
> 
> Is she looking for a new job to get away from the OM?
> 
> This is could be a huge step in the right direction.


She is looking for a new job because her current job requires her to be on her feet a lot. Her rheumatoid arthritis is making that difficult. With the holidays coming, she will be very busy and is worried since her joints are already flared up as it is.


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## bestplayer

land2634 said:


> I'm not sure... it really caught me off guard.
> 
> While it seems she isn't speaking from a foggy point of view, it also doesn't exactly seem as if she's saying she's ready to come back home to the marriage. I'm not sure which way to proceed. :scratchhead:


well Land I will suggest not to get your hopes high as this message doesn't necessarily hint that she wants to come back . But I really wish I am wrong .

Best of luck


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## MrQuatto

Best to temper this turn with the knowledge of the recent emails you have recieved. 

Perhaps things are not rosy in the affair, or perhaps she is not as prepared to be fully away from your support as she thought. Perhaps it is a phae of guilt or real, true guilt that can turn the tide. at this point there is no way to know.

Regardless, you need to continue to plan for a life away from her. Look at it this way, there is no rule or law anywhere that says you cant get back together, even after a divorce. However, it would be unwise to underestimate the ruthlessness of a wayward spouse. Until you KNOW she is wanting to fully reconcile, you are better off planning to be apart.

Just my $.02

Q~


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## josh1081

Did you by any chance tell her recently that you were dropping her from your insurance soon?
This sounds like something my X would do. She'd unload and be very cruel to me but if she wanted or needed something then she was very sweet and caring.
You would know best if this is how she acts or if it's sincere
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Yeah, did you tell her yet about the insurance?


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## land2634

I haven't even discussed the insurance issues with her yet. I've kept out of contact with her until today.


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## turnera

Ok, then. 

"Wife, it was good hearing from you. You have said some things I've long hoped to hear. I want you to know that, if you do decide that our marriage is what you want, you are welcome to come home any time, as long as you can adhere to the boundaries I have discovered for myself (elaborate here). And my family has never stopped loving you, and they would be thrilled to see you back."

Or, if you don't want her any more:

"Wife, it was good to hear from you. Unfortunately, I needed to hear that months ago. I have given up hope for us and can only look after myself. I'm sorry you're hurting, but you brought it on yourself by cheating. I do hope you can use this as a learning lesson so that the rest of your life is better spent."


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## iamnottheonlyone

The fog begins to lift. Be patient. It could be a long time coming. Maybe there should not be a response. Can the experts chip in?


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## Affaircare

MrQuatto said:


> Best to temper this turn with the knowledge of the recent emails you have recieved.
> 
> Perhaps things are not rosy in the affair, or perhaps she is not as prepared to be fully away from your support as she thought. Perhaps it is a phae of guilt or real, true guilt that can turn the tide. at this point there is no way to know.
> 
> Regardless, you need to continue to plan for a life away from her. Look at it this way, there is no rule or law anywhere that says you cant get back together, even after a divorce. However, it would be unwise to underestimate the ruthlessness of a wayward spouse. Until you KNOW she is wanting to fully reconcile, you are better off planning to be apart.
> 
> Just my $.02


:iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree: 

At this point we can not tell if she just had a fight with OM, if fog is clearing, or if she's just having a guilt-attack. I honestly think that jumping to reconciliation would be too large of a leap. I'd say be short but honest and say something like this: 

"Dear <wife>, 

Wow your email has really taken me off guard. I'm a bit surprised by it and not sure how to respond, so let me just say thank you for saying that. It was very thoughtful. There are days when I am also sad and miss you too. 

Love, 

~Land"

This kind of response is honest--you actually WERE shocked by it. It actually WAS thoughtful. And you don't put your neck on the chopping block or build false hopes, but likewise you don't slam the door in her face when she was being a little nice. Mostly it's sharing about you and your thoughts and feelings, with just a very small door open at the end. 

At this point, if fog is beginning to break up or she's dipping her toe in the water, it would be reasonable for her to make a tiny move...then you respond in kind (no more or less)...then let her make a tiny move and you show her it's safe-ish to do so, on and on very gradually moving forward a little at a time. Make sense? And if she never makes a move...you are no worse for the wear and can honestly say that one day she had a day of clarity.


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## AFEH

land2634 said:


> It's been awhile since I've posted, and things took an unexpected turn today. My wife and I were e-mailing back and forth about job listings (which developed from a prior conversation about how I will be requiring surgery on my foot and needed to get the crutches from her), and out of nowhere, I get this message from her:
> 
> _I had an interview the other day but im not gonna get my hopes up.
> 
> Im very sorry for everything. Im still not over it at all. I dont know if I ever will get over it all and if you think it hasnt hurt me, it has so much. Im so angry with how it all turned out. We were supposed to be happy together for a very long time and
> i guess life doesnt work how you want it to a lot of times. I miss your family very much even after everything. Sometimes you wish you could just rewind from the beginning and try just a little harder. I have a lot of guilt built up and im sorry for hurting
> you._


Land I guess it all depends what you want. If it was me, I was still in love with my wife and I wanted her back in my life I’d write something like the following.

“Well I’m very much like you I really did think we’d be happy together for a very long time. I really did mean until death we do part. I am sorry you are hurting, we all make decisions in our life never knowing what the outcome will be in the end.

I do treasure my family they are truly wonderful people and I’m not surprised you are missing them as they are missing you. I often pray we could indeed just wind the clock back and start off again knowing what we know about life and just how wrong it can go if we are not truly aware of what we are doing. We have both learnt very big life lessons.

I hope you can get through your guilt I really do. Thank you for your apology, it does mean a lot to me, please know that I have accepted it and please know that I have forgiven you for the way behaved towards me”.

And then I’d wait and see what happens.

Bob


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## i_feel_broken

don't have a lot of time. I like both ACs response and Bobs response. I wouldn't go with turnera's at this point - it is too direct and to the point. I don't think that would achieve what you need it to.

Just keep working on yourself, be kind/considerate but not needy and don't ask/expect anything.

good luck - if this is all you get from her at least you have a caring/honest unprompted apology. that is nice to hear!


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## land2634

My response to her was short and to the point. I did tell her that her message caught me off guard, but that I appreciate it. I mentioned that while life doesn't have a rewind button, we always have opportunities to learn and grow. I told her too have a good night and that I hoped she got to feeling better. I actually somewhat counted on this being the end of that conversation, but then she sent me another one in the middle of the night:

_Goodnight and I think about you a lot hoping that you are doing better. I'm just really sorry that everything is this way. Hope you feel better too._

While I'm under no illusions that her affair is over, I do believe she is conflicted and wishes there were an "easy" way to end it. I'm speculating, but if I had to guess, knowing her, she doesn't want anyone else to get hurt and feels that she can't turn around and pull a 180 after the people she's surrounded herself with have so firmly supported her in the direction she's been headed. We'll see what happens.


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## turnera

Might be a good time to start planting seeds about the home and its occupants being ready to welcome her back, should she choose.


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## land2634

I was thinking that. I'm not really expecting much, but I will admit that the events of the last 24 hours have really surprised me.


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## land2634

Well, nothing new to report. About what I expected. I'm sure she's pulled herself back in a little. We'll see what happens.


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## land2634

I just wanted to update what's been going on. My wife has been e-mailing me every couple of days asking how I'm doing, etc. Her grandmother had a stroke last week and will be in the hospital for another week and a half, at which point she will be placed in a nursing home. She wants my wife to move into her house, as my wife is definitely still living with her mother, who has fallen deeper and deeper into alcoholism.

I went out to play pool last night with some friends. One of them informed me that my wife got a new job at the local community college as a financial aid advisor. She starts Monday. She will still be working part-time at her current job for the time being. Jim teaches a couple of computer classes at this community college, but she won't be working around him as much and she is getting her foot out the door and more distance between her and the friends that are terrible influences on her. She will be off of her feet for the most part, which will help her rheumatoid arthritis a good bit. I think I am happy for this but am still undecided. At this point, it is very clear from the tone in my wife's e-mails that she cares about me and is regretful at how everything as happened. She simply doesn't have anyone on her end to give her the push to take the leap of faith and commit to her marriage once again. I can see where she is hesitant to end things with Jim for fear of "hurting" someone else, although my guess is he will start flirting with someone new at work when she isn't there.

In any case, I continue to maintain a positive line of communication with her and will see what happens.


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## Eli-Zor

One step at a time, every step in the right direction is good news, Only concern you may have :- is Jim the one who influenced the change if so this is a bonus to his Love Bank? Just a thought. 

The break from the friends will be good, patience.


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## land2634

Eli-Zor said:


> One step at a time, every step in the right direction is good news, Only concern you may have :- is Jim the one who influenced the change if so this is a bonus to his Love Bank? Just a thought.
> 
> The break from the friends will be good, patience.


She was looking for a new job for awhile, but I am sure he tipped her off to the job posting. Either way, I think it could be a positive step.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Affaircare

I agree--less time with Jim = more time for him to flirt with others = more chance she'll see him for what he really is + she'll begin to be "less involved" in his life and the lifestyle of those encouraging her to keep cheating. 

(FYI--from experience, those folks who cover up the affair and encourage you to divorce, usually pretty much leave the minute you end your marriage, things get tougher, and there's no "affair drama.")

With a new job and new influences in her life, Jim will likely look less and less "interesting" and if you continue being the Land you are, there's a good chance you'll look more interesting. After a little time goes by, I'd suggest asking her out on a date "like the old days" and treating her a little like you did when you met "back in the day."


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## land2634

I just wanted to post an update on some information I found out this morning.

So a female friend I graduated high school with has been keeping up with my situation over the months as her brother has been going through a similar situation. As it turns out, his wife worked with Jim and my wife, and his wife was getting into drugs and cheating on him. They are currently going through a divorce as she has done things such as flat-out walking him to him and punching him in the face when they met at the park so she could see her daughter.

In any case, this morning, I get a text from my female friend, and she asks, since I know people at the place where my wife works, if I recognize a phone number. Her brother is going through old text logs and preparing the evidence for his attorney. The phone number was Jim's. He has been sending dirty texts to this other woman over the past few months. Also, it appears he may buy Soma (muscle relaxer) from her.

He truly is playing every single person he can. I just wanted to share this. In one way, it made me grin knowing he will eventually show his true side, but in another, it sucks to know he is still playing my wife.


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## Feelingalone

I think you meant playing every married person he can!!! Yes a classic user. You should grin about it -- you know the type of person he really is and you know it will end between your wife and Jim at some point. Sounds like he is planning his exit from your wife in my opinion -- the fun must have left.

Question is, if it does end will you really be able to allow her to return?


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## turnera

I'd be letting her know.


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## land2634

turnera said:


> I'd be letting her know.


I've been thinking the same. The question I'm having is how to break that to her. Putting myself in her position, she is going to have no reason to believe me at all.

Feelingalone, I've still got it in me to rebuild a stronger marriage with her. I think she is starting to see the light of day but is still very afraid to make the leap.


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## Eli-Zor

Land you cannot tell her , she will think you are dissing Jim, plus you need to verify that there is nothing lost in translation by the time the information came to you. It may mean you meet with the other BS and have a discussion. 

You must be certain that this info is correct and if it is perhaps the other BS may indulge in a little exposure to Jim's co-workers that happens to include your wife. 

Think through this carefully. It is an opportunity and if true you can open the the gap in Jim's armour and your wife see him for who he is. The plus could be the friends that supported your wife turn against him.


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## turnera

Ask your friend to send it to her.


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## josh1081

turnera said:


> Ask your friend to send it to her.




^^^^
i couldn't agree more. 
this is something your wife needs to know. Remember the whole, "both parties need to know all the facts so they can make their own decisions" argument to admitting affairs. She needs to know and you won't look bad if someone else does it. 

Your friend is just concerned for your wife and had to let her know what kind of guy she is with 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## land2634

Well, I wanted to share the news from the evening. I got an e-mail early this morning from my wife stating that she misses me and my family and wishes things could have been different.

I took it as an opportunity to reiterate to her that nothing is keep it from being different because we always have an opportunity to learn from our past and be stronger. She told me she just wished I had been like this in our marriage. She also said the holidays just aren't going to be the same.

I took this opportunity to put a feeler out and told her that she seemed stressed and that maybe getting out of town for awhile would help. I offered to drive about 2 hours away to a restaurant we both love and just take an evening to have a good time. She replied that it sounded good but she wasn't sure she could do it. She said that it's easier not seeing me. A few minutes later, she sent another unprompted reply saying, simply, "Ok, I want to go. What time?"

I went and picked her up, we left, and were gone for around 5 hours. I just got home. We didn't talk about our relationship at all. She had tears in her eyes when she first got into the car, but after awhile, she started talking, smiling, and laughing much more. When I dropped her back off, she mentioned how she had a really good night and thanked me for taking her. I could tell she had a great time. It was very refreshing.

I mentioned that I have a softball game on Monday and she should come watch us play. She seemed very receptive to it. We will see. It could be another opportunity.


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## Affaircare

As you might imagine, you and your wife are in our prayers.


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## land2634

Thanks!

This is why I've stuck with Plan A, so I see no reason to change at this point. Just going to keep doing what I'm doing and let it pan out!


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## land2634

I received another message from my wife just earlier thanking me for last night and telling me she had a good time. She said that, "for once things seemed to be normal."

I'm seeing good signs, just remaining patient. Thanks for all the support!


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## jar

great news

Keep it up


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## josh1081

I think now would be a great time to expose the OM. That would just drive her more towards you and put the block down on anything happening in the future between them. It's easier to get back with someone you get along with then someone you don't like. I would find a way to have her told but not by you. You saying anything would be looked at negatively, I believe.

Otherwise this is all the greatest of updates and made me smile. Well done!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## OWar

Hi, this is my first time posting. Land, there is always one downer in the group so ill be it now.

I remember there are issues with the medical insurance, so I feel compelled to ask this, please don't be offended.

Is it possible that she is warming up to you because the insurance will be cut off soon? 

Also, is she still asking you to sign the divorce papers?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## land2634

OWar said:


> Hi, this is my first time posting. Land, there is always one downer in the group so ill be it now.
> 
> I remember there are issues with the medical insurance, so I feel compelled to ask this, please don't be offended.
> 
> Is it possible that she is warming up to you because the insurance will be cut off soon?
> 
> Also, is she still asking you to sign the divorce papers?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


OWar, the concern you raise is very valid, however, her new job offers health coverage and it is paid for completely by her employer. The insurance won't be an issue anymore I don't believe.


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## land2634

Well, the communication continues. We've had some e-mail correspondence this morning. On Saturday, I had joked with her that I keep Chick-Fil-A in business because I am addicted to their spicy chicken sandwiches.

Today, when I went on lunch, I sent her an e-mail to say, "See, I told you I'm addicted to those spicy chicken sandwiches. I'm about to get one now."

While I was at the walk-up window at Chick-Fil-A, guess who comes pulling up? That's right, my wife. We sat in the car and ate lunch together. She said she may come to the softball game tonight to cheer us on.

Again, I'm under no illusion that things between her and Jim are completely over. I do know, however, that the closer we can get, the more they will drift apart. Since we haven't discussed any relationship issues recently, I'm going to hold off on that until it becomes apparent that a decision needs to be made by her one way or the other. She sees my positive side again and obviously likes what she sees. I will be sure to keep it up.


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## Powerbane

We're pulling and praying for you and the Mrs.!!! 

Slow and steady as she goes mate!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## OWar

That's wonderful.

Please continue to keep us updated!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Affaircare

land2634 said:


> ...Again, I'm under no illusion that things between her and Jim are completely over. I do know, however, that the closer we can get, the more they will drift apart. Since we haven't discussed any relationship issues recently, I'm going to hold off on that until it becomes apparent that a decision needs to be made by her one way or the other. She sees my positive side again and obviously likes what she sees. I will be sure to keep it up.


It is my personal opinion that the less "day-to-day" contact she has with him, the less she'll be under his sway and fog will begin to clear some. And here's the truth--during your years together, you did like each other a lot at first and got along well--you just both neglected it some. I'm not minimizing that, but as she's not influenced by him, most likely more and more of her non-"Evil Twin" self will start to come out again. 

It's really hard to say at this point if she'll look at those last years and be so resentful she'll say "nope I can't go back to living like that" or if she'll look back now and say "well...maybe there is hope" and give it a try. But I do think that the percentages increase if she starts coming out of her bubble and sees you behaving like the man you have the potential to be, Land. You remember him right? That man who won her heart in the first place. :awink:

If that does start to happen (her coming out of fog a little, you being gallant Land), she's likely to be confused at first ("Ummm...why did I think I was so miserable with him? He's not that bad. I liked him!") and also feel like a HUGE heel and like it's so undignified to admit what she did out loud. Just ... let her enjoy you for a bit if you can. Build some kindlers before all that tough talk.


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## gentlemike1

land2634 said:


> First, I'd like to offer a little bit of backstory.
> 
> My wife and myself have been married for just over two years. About a year ago, she began complaining of pain all over her body. Fast forward to this February, she was diagnosed with rheumatoid arthritis. She's only 23 years old.
> 
> She fell into a state of depression for a long while and we grew distant. I was there for her the best way I knew how, but since we didn't communicate very well throughout the process, we failed at meeting the emotional needs of one another during a tough time.
> 
> In April, she began talking to a guy she works with, whom I actually know. They had worked together for three years but never really spoken much to one another. When she began to have insomnia in relation to the medication for her arthritis, she began devoting her late-night time to talking to him on Facebook chats.
> 
> Initially, it didn't bother me because the common belief was that the guy, whom I will refer to as Jim, was gay. As days passed, she began to spend more and more time online talking to him, and instead of doing it right next to me, she would sit in the recliner in the corner of the room as if to hide the chat.
> 
> Then came the point where she began to hang out with him more frequently. At first, other girlfriends from her workplace were present. As time drifted into late April, I began to suspect she was hanging out with him alone.
> 
> My suspicion began to take a life of its own when she "went out with the girls" to say farewell to another female co-worker who was moving the next day. I found out, however, that plenty of guys were around, including Jim, when a mutual friend posted pictures on Facebook.
> 
> As the month of May rolled around, she began to grow more and more distant. Still talking to him online, she began to lie to me in order to be around him. First, she began to use the "going out with the girls" excuse, and while one girl from work was present, he was there as well.
> 
> She began to claim she wasn't taking lunch breaks, yet I found out otherwise when I went to her workplace to get money from her for lunch and she was walking in with Jim with food in hand. I confronted her about lying to me.
> 
> She assured me Jim is "just a friend," which I know is never a good sign. As my suspicions grew, I began to log her Facebook chats without her knowledge.
> 
> She has continually assured me that she feels our marriage is getting back on track, slowly but surely, yet she told him in their chats that she was pretending everything is ok to make me happy.
> 
> Fast-forward to last night, she was again up late. I got up at one point to grab some water, and she acted very jumpy, making me suspicious. I just got home from work an hour ago (she is at work right now) and checked the Facebook log. Indeed, Jim and my wife confessed immense feelings for each other, of which Jim said they could never act upon.
> 
> She confessed to him that she compares me to him all the time, and can't stop thinking about him.
> 
> This hurts!
> 
> I don't know what to do... on one hand, I feel like I should say something and ask her to cease all non-work related contact with him, but on the other, I feel as if she has to come to this realization on her own. The fact that she hasn't left me tells me that she doesn't want to throw away our commitment to one another in one day.
> 
> Based on their conversations, I have deduced that nothing physical has happened, although it doesn't make the pain any less hurtful. I don't know what to do.


stop it immediately!no such thing as going out with the girls.i went thru that crap.especially single and dibvbvorced girlfriends are bad for her.if she wont stop,leave


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## OWar

Uh Sir...apparently you haven't noticed there are many more months of postings after page 1. You are responding to the very first post from many months ago, without reading through the whole story.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## land2634

She started her first full day at her new job this morning. She was very apprehensive about it. She's excited for the opportunity but scared at the same time because she has to learn a lot of new things. I gave her some encouragement and reminded her that it was her dedication that got her through college as well.

Affaircare, I actually have started to notice some subtle changes. As I said, I'm fairly sure she has not finished with Jim. For example, when she showed up unannounced at lunch yesterday, my friend that works at her old job texted me saying that he was in the break room with Jim and that Jim was eating alone. Normally, my wife would take him lunch. She did not.

As you may remember, all of our correspondence to this point has been via e-mail. Since we both use smartphones, our e-mail comes through on our phones instantly. Yesterday afternoon, she e-mailed and told me she felt like e-mailing was awkward and gave me her phone number, which she had changed months ago so I wouldn't have it. We began texting, and she went silent for a couple of hours. I'm fairly certain this was the time she was spending with Jim after he got off of work. I'm sure she doesn't want him knowing she is "cheating" on him with her husband. :rofl:

In any case, she began messaging again right around 9PM. Normally, she would spend a lot more time with him. Knowing her, she likely told him she was tired or had to help her mom with something.

When she began drifting away from me near the beginning of the affair, she began looking for imperfections in me, reasons to be mad at me, if you will. Now that all of our communication has been positive recently and we are even spending time together, I can see some of those same tendencies coming out, except directed at Jim. Nothing is even close to guaranteed, but I'm definitely going to keep along this path. If nothing else, I've enjoyed the time talking and hanging out with my wife. She's still my favorite person to hang out with.


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## turnera

Sounds good!


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## Affaircare

I think you are on the right track! :lol: :rofl:

(Okay...in real life I am pleased as punch at the progress, and we're praying for ya both.)


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## land2634

Thanks a ton. I'm just working on being supportive to her and being there for her.

She mentioned that she is working on figuring out how to decorate her new office, so I've been giving her ideas. While I was at lunch today, I came across a small decorative lamp that is right up her alley. I plan to give it to her as an office-warming gift of sorts.

Here's to welcoming in the month of December. May it be a good one!


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## turnera

Wow. My husband doesn't even know where I work. I'd be thrilled if he'd take that much interest in my work.


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## land2634

My wife and I just met for lunch again. She was dressed in her work attire and looked really good. I told her this and she smiled and sort of blushed.

I still wear my wedding ring, and I can tell my wife notices this. I oftentimes notice her looking down at my hand, almost as if she likes that I still wear it.

By the time she had shown up to the restaurant, I had already ordered since I remembered exactly what she always ate there. She told me she was glad I remembered because she didn't even remember what it was she normally ate there.

I told her that I had her office-warming gift in my truck. She was needing to make a run by the bank to set up direct deposit for her new job before she had to be back from her lunch break, so we agreed that we would meet later, possibly this evening, so she could get it. She grinned when I mentioned this.

The biggest thing at this point is that it's quite obvious we are both enjoying the other's company. She seems so much more like the wife I married than the one I watched drift away. I can see it in her face when she talks to me. Her tone of voice is so much different as well. It's laced with more emotion as opposed to indifference. I know I'm getting through to her, it's just a matter of when she finally feels comfortable enough to take the leap.

Keeping the faith and remaining patient.


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## OWar

Awesome! You obviously made some good decisions.

Just wondering..do you know where things really stand with Jim? Obviously this isn't something you can discuss with her, but it would go a long way if you kind of knew how she's feeling towards him. 

I agree that it would be good for her to know about his sleazy side antics. I mean that's a game changer, but it should never come from you..that could kill everything.

It just seems like you're operating in the dark without knowing how serious she is about him?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## land2634

I'm not sure where things actually stand with Jim right now. I do know, however, that I am taking her to dinner tomorrow evening, on Jim's day off. As far as I'm concerned, that seems to be progress toward ending the affair. I think she is seeing that her affair is not a "love story" as much as it was just wrong.


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## land2634

Well, she bailed on dinner tonight. I received this text from her after I got out of work:

_"I'm sorry I can't do this... I have too many emotions in my head. I'm really trying but don't think I can do it. I'm sorry I just can't pretend like everything's ok bc it's not. I just can't go back to al of that. Yes I miss you and your family but there is really too much ruined."_

I don't know if this is guilt or what, but it seems she's working on going back into shutdown mode.


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## turnera

We avoid situations where we have to acknowledge ourselves.


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## Affaircare

land2634 said:


> Well, she bailed on dinner tonight. I received this text from her after I got out of work:
> 
> _"I'm sorry I can't do this... I have too many emotions in my head. I'm really trying but don't think I can do it. I'm sorry I just can't pretend like everything's ok bc it's not. I just can't go back to al of that. Yes I miss you and your family but there is really too much ruined."_
> 
> I don't know if this is guilt or what, but it seems she's working on going back into shutdown mode.


Okay part of the awful part of being a Disloyal is that when you do come out of the fog, you look and there's this pretty loyal, decent person looking back at you...and you treated them like DIRT so you could be with someone who has the morals of an alley cat! It's horrible!!

So I'd suggest this: 
"I can completely understand how emotional it must feel, and I agree that it's not cool to pretend everything's okay. But listen, I care about you and want to be there for you. Want me to just put on my flame-proof vest and let you talk? Tell me what's going through your head--I'm here."

The idea is that she looks at you--a pretty okay person PLUS the things you were doing wrong, you've actually worked on--and she thinks "MY GOD!! I'VE COMPLETELY RUINED IT ALL!! I can't fix this mess I've made" and then she wants to run. 

A lot of times people think they have to "make up for it" but we all know, in real life, that once you missed something or really messed up (even stuff like missing a birthday) you just can't make up for that. What you need is a REBOOT. She can not make up for this or fix it. It is *destroyed* But if you are willing to start over and build something different, maybe she'd be willing to do that too. :awink:


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## OWar

Land...you're not gonna like what I'm going to ask. But, I'm gonna be totally blunt here. No beating around the bush.

I get the feeling you haven't been forthcoming (and that's your right) about what went on in your marriage

Her words are "I can't go back to that", and she seems scarred and very hesitant. She obviously left cuz there were reasons.

I get the feeling things were much worse than you led on, or that you recognize yourself.

There's always a reason behind someones actions, you know?

I'm sorry I had to say it.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## OWar

I'm getting the feeling that Jim was an escape. This is less about an attraction to Jim as it is an escape from serious unhappiness during your marriage.

just my opinion.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Feelingalone

I disagree with OWar on this point. Her statements are classic disloyal spouse coming out of the fog just like AC said. In her mind the marriage issues might be bigger than she could handle -- but remember OWar that a DS has to create bigger issues to justify going out of the marriage to cheat. It had to be Land's fault -- he was just so mean, bad, etc. -- and not hers.

I'm not saying there weren't issues -- just they were exagerated in her mind. So I agree with AC.


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## land2634

Well, a big thing when she left was she seemed to feel that I was "controlling" her by discovering her affair. I'm sure she still feels, in her mind, that it was all a violation of her privacy.

I wasn't perfect by any means. I dropped the ball on a lot of fronts, but there were also many things I did right. For example, I did most of the cooking. I enjoyed it. Problem was, I was terrible at cleaning up after myself. Just one example, but those kind of things build.


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## OWar

Land ..

What are your thoughts now..are you sticking with your plan as all along ?

best of luck
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## josh1081

I think AC's message hit it right on the head. It shows you recognizing this is hard for her but also putting yourself out there as a loving person of support. Doesn't come off as needy or demanding which is perfect
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## land2634

Yeah, I think I'll be sticking with the plan. I knew before she backed away again that there would be some give and take, and this is still progress I think compared to where I was before.

AC always seems to have a great idea for every situation. I'll definitely be using it.


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## Affaircare

land2634 said:


> Well, a big thing when she left was she seemed to feel that I was "controlling" her by discovering her affair. I'm sure she still feels, in her mind, that it was all a violation of her privacy.
> 
> I wasn't perfect by any means. I dropped the ball on a lot of fronts, but there were also many things I did right. For example, I did most of the cooking. I enjoyed it. Problem was, I was terrible at cleaning up after myself. Just one example, but those kind of things build.


Actually the "controlling" thing may be a perfect example of an instance where the Disloyal blows it WAAAAAAY out of proportion, but there is a little kernel of truth there. For example, it is CLEARLY not "controlling" to discover the affair, as you two are married and part of that covenant is that you forsake all others and share together intimately--emotionally, mentally, and physically. So that's clearly blown out of proportion. But maybe during the marriage she did feel "controlled". It's very common for one of the two spouses to feel that because without knowing better, many of the arguments and disagreements stem from BOTH parties not having a clear acceptance that their spouse's methods, preferences, and opinions are JUST AS VALID as their own! 

Here's a very typical example: Mrs.Land wants you to do the dishes and kind of whines about the fact that you don't do the dishes. You get up and do the dishes, but load the dishwasher "Land-style" and she wants you to load it "Mrs.Land-style." Eventually you say something like "FINE! Load it your own way, I'm not doing it anymore!" and then she complains because you don't help around the house. What actually happened there is that she was trying to control "how" you loaded the dishwasher, not realizing that either way the dishes get clean--and not realizing that your way of loading the dishwasher is just as valid as hers. 

People go into marriage and a lot of the fights are about getting "power over"--and I don't mean being all abusive. I mean, "I'll nag, complain, whine, yell, guilt and manipulate him/her until they do it my way!" In the fight, that would be "I win!" If they constantly just knuckle under in a fight because they dislike fighting what happens inside? Inside they are feeling controlled! And I would say about 90% of this or more is unintentional--people just like to do things their own way because they know that will get the job done and done right. 

So if she has said she felt control--okay the big majority of that may be justifying the affair, but there may be a kernel of truth in there. The solution is MUU: Mutual United Understanding. Both spouses agree that they will not do ANYTHING until they have an understanding together that they are both enthusiastic about. That means when you have the money and want to buy a boat and can easily afford it, you agree to NOT BUY IT until you and your wife have discussed it and she is just as thrilled about the resolution as you are. If she is not "just as thrilled" and you go buy the boat, you just forced her to do something she was not onboard with, and how much do you like to be forced? NOT!! 

So if you save and save, and you want that boat, and she says, "I'm sorry honey but I'm just not enthusiastic" what do you say? How about "Okay I disappointed but we are a team. Can you tell me what you would be enthusiastic about or what would make this okay for you?" Then she can say "Well I believe we really need a waterheater first as ours just exploded remember? Once we take care of that I would be cool with the boat" and then Ba Da Bing you two have an understanding! Neither one is "controlled," both are treated with respect and as if their viewpoint is valid, and both are enthusiastic!


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## land2634

It's been awhile, but I need some advice here. I received a text from my wife earlier. As many of you know, she backed off after spending some time with me. This is what she said:

"So I have to have those divorce papers back and can you write a statement that I served them to you and you disagree. That is proof that I gave them to you. I have to tell them that you refuse to sign them and if you don't want it then you have to appear in court."

Any thoughts? Will I be cheating myself if I do this? It seems like a pretty straightforward way to keep from signing the waiver of service, which as many of you will remember had some wording that waived many of my rights during the process.


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## turnera

Sorry, I have no idea how these things work. Don't want to give the wrong advice.


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## Affaircare

land2634 said:


> It's been awhile, but I need some advice here. I received a text from my wife earlier. As many of you know, she backed off after spending some time with me. This is what she said:
> 
> "So I have to have those divorce papers back and can you write a statement that I served them to you and you disagree. That is proof that I gave them to you. I have to tell them that you refuse to sign them and if you don't want it then you have to appear in court."
> 
> Any thoughts? Will I be cheating myself if I do this? It seems like a pretty straightforward way to keep from signing the waiver of service, which as many of you will remember had some wording that waived many of my rights during the process.


Land~

You really need to look up, read, and research the laws of your state. In most states it goes like this: The Petitioner files for divorce. They have 30 days to prove that they served you. They can hand you the papers if you sign the Waiver of Service (which usually is "I agree to take the papers" but she tried to pull a fast one). If you do not sign the Waiver, she would have to mail them to you certified, registered, return receipt or get a sheriff to serve you or some other adult over 18yo who will sign a paper saying "Yep I gave him the papers." If she doesn't do that within the 30 days, then she'd have to re-file. 

THEN if you do sign--or like in JAR's instance he signed the return receipt, or like in marksaysay's instance where he was served by someone else--then you'd have 30 days to Respond (thus why you'd be called a Respondent) and say that you don't think it's irreconcilable, that here's how you'd like the property divided, and request counseling etc. If you don't respond within that 30 days, then the judge will wait the alloted number of days in your state law (either 60 or 90 days in most states, but a few are "a year") and he'll sign the Petitioner's version of the divorce and you're done. If you didn't respond, you can't come in on day 50 and say "But I don't want this...I disagree" because you gave up your right by not responding within 30 days after you were served. 

Sooooooooo...*CHECK YOUR STATE LAWS!!!* If she filed more than 30 days ago and you didn't sign a waiver of service and she didn't have someone else serve you and she didn't mail them to you return receipt...she would most likely have to refile to get this divorce going. IF THAT IS THE CASE you can actually use that to your advantage now, by lovingly explaining that to her and saying "Look right now it's the holidays, next year is a whole new year, and we don't hate each other or anything. Let's take some time and see what happens. There's no rush to do this now--let's just enjoy the season and be nice to each other."


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## DubeGechi

I have been reading all of the posts and couldnt stop the flow in my eyes. I have been suffering from similar problem and I have no idea where I am heading. My life has been so happy only a few weeks back and all on a sudden I am in such a deep ****. Good lord! 15 years of my marriage ends with emotional affair? 

I am so coward to die. She is so strong, she will continue. I know it. we talked about it but I know it. Oh my God..what kind of test is this? I am drowning!


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## turnera

Dube please start a new thread so we can help you.


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## DubeGechi

Turnera, i was new to this world..reading the postings were pain but big help. I promise I will not cry anymore


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## land2634

DubeGechi said:


> Turnera, i was new to this world..reading the postings were pain but big help. I promise I will not cry anymore


Turnera was just wanting you to start a new thread for your specific situation so that many of us can post specific to your circumstances. I will start a thread for you and post the link here.

Edit: Here is your thread!


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## iamnottheonlyone

I think it is a test. You had a few good days together. Its the rollercoaster. No giving up. You've come a long way. She doesn't need those papers. She needs you.


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## land2634

I haven't heard from my wife since the day she mentioned the divorce papers again. I find it interesting she isn't pushing the issue more if that's what she really wants. I get the sense that she's being pressured quite a bit from Jim.

Interesting time last night. One of my friends from when I worked at the same place - Best Buy, for those that haven't put it together, as I see no harm in mentioning the place as there are plenty of different locations) - as my wife and Jim called last night and asked if I wanted to go catch the eclipse out by the lake. I agreed. When we got out there, quite a few of the Best Buy crew, past and present, were out there, many of which are my friends, but specifically a couple that are friends of my wife.

One of the friends has avoided me like the plague any time we run into each other since everything came up. I just decided I was going to be the better person and say hi, congratulate her on getting her degree, etc. Turns out, she ended up being really friendly toward me. We ended up laughing, joking, etc. by the end of the night. All in all, I thought it was a positive interaction. Besides, I can't see any harm in my wife's friend thinking, "He's not such a bad guy, now why did I believe the stories I was told?"

Other than that, not much else is new. I do, however, feel like taking a vacation. It probably won't happen, but maybe I can get out of town for a few days sometime soon.


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## the guy

Missed, it he was talking about him self


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## Affaircare

> Besides, I can't see any harm in my wife's friend thinking, "He's not such a bad guy, now why did I believe the stories I was told?"


The Best Buy friends used to be mutual friends and co-workers of both land and Mrsland. They were fed a line of bull pucky by land's wife (i.e., that land was a 'bad guy') and he was saying that he was nice to the former friend. Thus, now that person who used to be a mutual friend can say "Hey wait a minute. She may have been exaggerating. He's (land is) not such a bad guy."


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## OWar

Land..thanks for keeping us updated. Wish you the best of luck. You are right, I think she is getting pressured by him. Did you see them there last night?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## land2634

OWar said:


> Land..thanks for keeping us updated. Wish you the best of luck. You are right, I think she is getting pressured by him. Did you see them there last night?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No they most certainly were not there. I felt like it was five years ago in that I was hanging out with a lot of my former co-workers. It was a great time. Before the eclipse got started, the guys all went trekking into the dark to find some wood to make a fire with. We ended up getting a pretty good blaze going.

One thing I think that helps me one way or the other is that I tend to do a pretty good job at putting away differences and being courteous and respectful to people. Also, understanding that my wife's friend was told one side of the story that left out all the important details (her affair mainly), I can understand why someone would maybe dislike me. When it came down to it, I was able to break the ice and just throw in a funny comment toward my wife's friend and from there, it wasn't awkward anymore. I was showing her the constellations on the Google Skymap application on my phone, things of that nature.

I went and hit some baseballs around with some friends this evening. I've been playing softball, but it's been a long time since I've actually played baseball. It's starting to make me feel old thinking back to how long it's been since I played. Two more workdays until the long weekend...


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## OWar

Land..I want to take this time to wish you a happy and joyous new year. I hope 2011 brings you everything you are wishing for and more. Hang in there and please keep us updated. We are all rooting for you and hoping this story has a truly happy ending! !
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## land2634

Thanks OWar, I appreciate it a lot. It helps to have a great support group behind me.

Christmas was somewhat difficult for me. Having been in a routine of visiting various people and carrying on various traditions with my wife, I was constantly reminded of those things. Overall, I think I handled it very well. I enjoyed time with my parents and brother. It was likely the first time my wife has visited with much of her family since the affair started. I find myself wondering exactly what her explanation might have been for why I wasn't there.

She was still working weekends at Best Buy since she started her new job, but apparently quit last week. From what I can tell, she burned a lot of bridges with management there in the way she left. She didn't want to work last Monday and so she just didn't show up. When they called her, she just quit.

This just further solidifies the point that she is a completely different person these days. The woman I married would have NEVER just not shown up for work. She used to refuse to even call in sick. Night and day...


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## turnera

land2634 said:


> It was likely the first time my wife has visited with much of her family since the affair started. I find myself wondering exactly what her explanation might have been for why I wasn't there.


What has been their status in regards to her cheating?


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## land2634

turnera said:


> What has been their status in regards to her cheating?


I never received a response from any of them in any form or fashion. I'm actually very surprised I haven't run into any of them out in public. This isn't a small town, but it isn't very large either.


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## turnera

Are you cutting off all contact with them?


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## land2634

turnera said:


> Are you cutting off all contact with them?


I never really talked to any of them on a regular basis previously, so I don't see much reason to cut off contact completely. If I see them out and about, I'll just be pleasant and go on about my business.


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## turnera

Well, then, no offense, land, but you seem to be extremely passive about your marriage. Especially regarding outside communications. Remind me again what you have done to fight all this?


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## land2634

The tried to call a couple of them when it all surfaced and asked them to call me back saying it was important for my marriage, but never received a response. I would be inclined to think that at least her cousin knows what is going on, but isn't the kind of person to ever say anything. I don't know that for sure.

I have taken somewhat of a break of sorts over the past couple of weeks since she distanced herself again. I haven't attempted to contact her in any way except just to send her a text wishing her a Merry Christmas a few days ago. I really believe that at this point, it's a matter of her dealing with herself through all of this. I really believe she's seen that I've been making changes in my own life that she likes (she was going out of her way to "run into me" in random places). She even commented that she could tell a difference in how I was carrying myself.

What would you recommend at this point? What could I do to try not to be so passive? Thanks for the input.


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## turnera

What would I recommend? 

Be HONEST! With EVERYONE! "Oh, you heard she left me? You're right, she did - she cheated on me. I did everything for her, and that wasn't enough; she needed a THRILL and the good guy didn't do it for her."

What's wrong with being honest?


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## land2634

Oh sure, I'm not going to lie for her if I come across them. I'll let the truth be known if given the opportunity, without a doubt. I was curious to know if you were thinking I should actually try to reach out once again and contact them.


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## turnera

Of course you should contact them. They are people in your life, aren't they? Are you going to let your cheating wife dictate to whom you talk?


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## OWar

turnera said:


> Of course you should contact them. They are people in your life, aren't they? Are you going to let your cheating wife dictate to whom you talk?


I'm not sure. maybe, maybe not to reach out to them again. At this point, she really does need to decide what she wants with her life and where this is all going. Its unclear what she wants, or what she's thinking.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

It doesn't matter what SHE wants. These are people HE knows and cares about (I assume). He should not let what SHE does control who he can and can't see. If nothing else, he should talk to them, at least once, and see what THEY want.


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## Affaircare

land2634 said:


> ... I really believe that at this point, it's a matter of her dealing with herself through all of this. I really believe she's seen that I've been making changes in my own life that she likes (she was going out of her way to "run into me" in random places). She even commented that she could tell a difference in how I was carrying myself.


This is actually key, land. In order for the marriage to recover, at some point she will have to face and deal with herself. That is to say, at first she might just do the part of leaving the OM and returning, but if she then tries to just "return to the way it was"...well "the way it was" lead to adultery so that's not good! Thus it would necessitate her changing--both for herself and for the good of the marriage. The real problem is that often the reason a disloyal BECOMES disloyal is that there's something about themselves that is at a breaking point of "grow or avoid" and they want to avoid...so to avoid facing what is coming to a breaking point, they will go outside the marriage for someone to "make them feel better." All along the real solution is to face themselves and grow! 

Sooooo...if she's not ready/willing to face herself, the sad fact may be that she will choose to go through with the divorce even though you can tell that she knows she's unhappy! 



> What would you recommend at this point? What could I do to try not to be so passive? Thanks for the input.


Call her up and ask her out on a date. Ask her if she's still seeing OM right out loud. Clearly the 30-days to have your served as passed so it would seem she's in no particular rush to divorce. She's also clearly not making a move of any kind to contact you--but she *may *(note: MAY) be waiting for you to do it first so she's safe.

Other than that, I say continue living your life uprightly. Continue working on yourself and doing things in the new ways you've learned...and on the occasion see if she wants to join you in doing an activity or would like to share some time together. 

Regarding the relatives--it sounds to me as if they are the ones who are passive and don't want to be involved. They must by now know that she's left you. If you have an inkling that maybe some don't know you could consider informing them, but when you tried to talk to them in the past they wouldn't pick up a phone. They aren't particularly bugging you or blaming you that you know of, so I personally say no reason to do other than what you are: namely, carry on with your business and if you happen to run into them at the grocery store, smile and nod and act like they are the mailman.


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## iamnottheonlyone

No changes? That's okay. Things have to perculate. I wish you a happy new year and may you grow and prosper. You are a great guy.


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## land2634

Well, a county constable showed up at the door last night to serve me with divorce papers. This guy showed up at 9:30 at night, and instead of ringing the doorbell or gently knocking, he beat on the door like someone who was going to be waiting with a gun on the other end. Not to mention that the entire time he was shining his flashlight throw the window next to the door. Don't these guys have some sort of respectful guidelines to follow when showing up at places, especially that late at night?

In any case, it's the same exact paperwork she gave me back on September 21, minus the bogus waiver of service. It says I have until 10am of the Monday following the twentieth day of being served to file a response. I'm highly irritated by it all, so excuse me if I sound cynical.

I sent my wife a message a couple of days ago asking if her health insurance on her new job had taken effect yet, even though I seemed to remember her saying she had to wait 3 months. Since I'm back on my father's insurance, I don't need the policy anymore. She didn't even have the respect to respond to me, so I'm cutting it off today.

It looks as if I need to be working on a Plan B letter. Even though she isn't in contact with me anyways, I intend to remind her of the situation.

I ran into a couple on Monday that have been longtime friends. Apparently they have moved back into town. They saw my wife and Jim in the mall together recently, and wondered what was up. The female of this couple was telling me yesterday evening that she did the same exact thing to her husband, and it was only after she realized that even though people wanted her to be with the other man, she had to take a leap to go back to her husband, and while she lost many friends, she gained many more. She sent my wife an e-mail yesterday evening giving her some perspective. It probably won't help, but it obviously can't hurt things at this point.


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## Powerbane

I feel for you Land.

I don't know what hold this guy has on your wife but apparently it's quite powerful. 

I agree Plan B, but it's almost like you've been doing it all along. 

I wish you well. I know either way you'll do just fine and if it is divorce - you'll find that woman out there that will love you and not cheat on you like this one has. 

Godspeed!


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## OWar

Land..what's even sadder is that she is being played by this guy and doesn't even know it. ThAt's really sad because she isN't even moving on with her life in any sort of meaningful way. Didnt you say a while back that he was sending dirty and suggestive texts to other women during this time. That is so pathetic. Your wife is in a bad way these days and she has hurt both of you so badly. Nobody knows but you what your two years of marriage were like. What I mean is. it was only two years and someone could say..well, did she ever really love you? Was it true love and real bonding? Only you would know that. Its something that I imagine would be very hard to fake. But then again, maybe not? Best of luck to you my friend. You deserve only the best.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## land2634

OWar said:


> Land..what's even sadder is that she is being played by this guy and doesn't even know it. ThAt's really sad because she isN't even moving on with her life in any sort of meaningful way. Didnt you say a while back that he was sending dirty and suggestive texts to other women during this time. That is so pathetic. Your wife is in a bad way these days and she has hurt both of you so badly. Nobody knows but you what your two years of marriage were like. What I mean is. it was only two years and someone could say..well, did she ever really love you? Was it true love and real bonding? Only you would know that. Its something that I imagine would be very hard to fake. But then again, maybe not? Best of luck to you my friend. You deserve only the best.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He was indeed sending and receiving those texts with another woman. 

Something I've started thinking about recently is what it is my wife is looking for in life. Her father passed away a month before she was born due to a heart attack. Her father was really the one who wanted a daughter, not her mother. When she was born, her mom felt like she was a burden to her, and treated her as such. She's been an alcoholic all of my wife's life, and in a lot of ways, I think my wife has always felt as if she needs to win someone's affection and love.

When this guy from work began showing her that, she took the opportunity. When the buzz from that wears off, she will eventually do the same all over again. The problem may be that until my wife realizes that her life is what she makes of it and not the other way around, she may never find true peace with anything.

I could be completely off base, but it's been something I've been thinking about.


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## Powerbane

I totally forgot about the texts. 

I think you're doing your wife and your marriage a disservice by not exposing these somehow.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Yeah, why not? And by all means, send her the PB letter. AND cut off the insurance.


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## Affaircare

> Something I've started thinking about recently is what it is my wife is looking for in life. Her father passed away a month before she was born due to a heart attack. Her father was really the one who wanted a daughter, not her mother. When she was born, her mom felt like she was a burden to her, and treated her as such. She's been an alcoholic all of my wife's life, and in a lot of ways, I think my wife has always felt as if she needs to win someone's affection and love.
> 
> When this guy from work began showing her that, she took the opportunity. *When the buzz from that wears off, she will eventually do the same all over again.* The problem may be that until my wife realizes that her life is what she makes of it and not the other way around, she may never find true peace with anything.
> 
> I could be completely off base, but it's been something I've been thinking about.


Land, I'll just say that I'm deeply saddened to hear that your wife had you served, and yet I'm not utterly surprised. It is more scary for her to face herself than it is to divorce you, and you know THAT is the truly sad thing. I think you hit it right on the head when you said she will do the same all over again if she doesn't face herself. One main difference I can see, though, is that to this OM she is "a piece" and to you she was someone of value. 

I can only say that I have been in your shoes and I understand. It's a very sad thing, but the fact is you can not save her from herself if she doesn't want to be saved. So I would suggest going to Plan B/Consequences and continuing to grow "in grace and truth" as you have been, and give her over to God's hands. Even if you're not in her life, He doesn't leave her, so she'll be in His care. Here are some Sample Consequences Letters for ya. 

Regarding exposing that the OM was sending emails to other women at the same time he was with your wife, I will bet you money some part of her knows that--she may even know it for a fact. Thus my thought is this: I don't really see that any good could come of it. When my own exH was with his mistress, she had 4 kids by 4 different men, and yet for some reason he just could NOT SEE that she wasn't his "soulmate" who would commit to him for life! It was as plain as day to me!  If I had told him that each kid had a different father, he would have said I was just jealous and being a "witch with a B" rather than realizing "that means she's trying to get what she can from me and won't settle down." Know what I mean? So on one hand, if you tell the company--they've already proven they are involved in it and don't care! If you tell her--she's already served you and doesn't care! If you tell relatives, etc.--it will look like 'he was just served and this is sour grapes.' Just being realistic, I don't see this MIRACULOUSLY waking her up. (I had previously had some hope she was starting to come around, but I think she made a decision to return to the fog, and as I say, the longer a person is in the fog, the harder they become and gradually that is the kind of person they become.) So honestly--I think you could put your energies to wiser uses. 

If it were me, I would go Plan B/Consequences and start setting up your new life. Consult with an attorney to protect your rights, pick your hill to die on and let the rest go--after all it can all be rebuilt if you so choose. Live a life of peace and joy--that's the best thing you can do. Let her live the life she's chosen.


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## i_feel_broken

land,

sorry to hear your news. You have tried so hard... harder than most would have. I agree with AC she needs to face herself as therein lies the problem. Look on the positives, there are no children involved and you have your health. You can make a fresh start without your wife and live life without the burden that this relationship has become. Better things await you im sure...

best wishes


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## land2634

It's been awhile since I've posted on my thread. Overall, I feel like I'm doing pretty well. My main stresses in life at this point relate to my career and whatnot. I rarely think of my wife anymore.

The time has come and passed for me to file a response. Since everything was pretty straightforward, I simply cut my losses and let it pass without a fight. Quite honestly, I was tired of fighting for something that was quite obvious would not be repaired until my wife (if ever) faces herself and chooses to improve her own life.

With that being said, I do have some questions. The time will soon be coming (once I have a final decree in hand) where I will want to try dating. It's been so long since I've dated, but I'm still young.

Something I've thought a lot about: how do you bring up the issue of having been married to a potential date? This is something I can definitely foresee myself struggling with. I want to be completely honest with people, but obviously, many people my age have NOT been married and carry a negative stigma about divorce. As I've learned more and more, any relationship (friend, date, girlfriend, spouse) is based on trust, honesty, and transparency... however, how do you gain interest before dropping that bomb on someone?


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## turnera

If you can go on a date without bringing up your wife more than once, you're ready to date. 

"Hi, I'm land. Nice to meet you. Me? Well, I'm getting a divorce, long story I won't bore you with, but I'm ready to take what I learned from our mistakes and get out and have some fun in life. What about you?"


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## land2634

turnera said:


> If you can go on a date without bringing up your wife more than once, you're ready to date.
> 
> "Hi, I'm land. Nice to meet you. Me? Well, I'm getting a divorce, long story I won't bore you with, but I'm ready to take what I learned from our mistakes and get out and have some fun in life. What about you?"


Fair enough. I kinda figure that's something that's likely to come up in conversation just stemming from things like, "So what brings you to living here?"


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## Affaircare

Well I wouldn't consider it a bomb. "Hello. My name is Affaircare. I'm 48yo, almost 5 ft. tall, and I was married once but my ex cheated and he left. I would have honored my vows. I grew up in the midwest on a farm, and I have a degree in accounting. What about you?" 

See? No bomb. The fact is that you worked VERY HARD to save your marriage and give her time to look at herself and deal with whatever was within her to want to cheat. Were you perfect? Nope--but marriage isn't perfect so that's not relevant. Did you learn and grow and change? You betcha. Is having a divorce the spiritual ideal? Nope but then again we are all sinners and to the best of your abilities you honored your covenant. The fact is that in this day and age, she can divorce you even if you whole heartedly want to do the right thing and honor your vow! That's the sad state of our legal system!

So just tell future people the truth and let them decide. I guess it is conceivable that some may decide to not date you, but to my mind that would be a person who holds others responsible for their "feelings" and whatnot anyway, and you don't want that, so cool. Let those go, and focus on the ones who have learned that people are not perfect and the way to fix it is admit what they did wrong and do better. 

Also this is just me, but I'd suggest doing the personality quiz and the love languages quiz and start considering what type of personality etc. would be complimentary to your own. If they are exactly the same as you, then you won't learn or grow at all and you'll have the same "weaknesses"--so look for one that is one or two letters different. Dear Hubby is in INTJ and I am an INFP and we get along like peas and carrots!


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## Affaircare

P.S. Naturally I would support these activities AFTER the ink has dried on the divorce papers. Until then, you are married. 

However, what I did to help with a "transition period" once my exH had filed, I still wore my wedding ring but on my right hand. This helped me get used to feeling no ring, but it felt weird on the right hand and it reminded me to "behave" because I was still married.


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## bluesky

Land,

I read this entire thread today.
Just wanted to say......you should be very proud of how you handled yourself throughout this.

The only thing that was missing was what your wife's main issues were with you.

She mentioned CONTROLLING, which may or may not be the case.....just saying....if you get ANYTHING out of this mess.....a little introspection may be a bonus.


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## OWar

Land..well it sounds like the beginning of a new life for you. I feel sad but its a new beginning. We live only one life, so go out there and live yours to the fullest. 

Do not worry at all about explaining your divorce situation to a date. This is 2011 not 1975. Or 1965!!! Iif there's a chemistry trust me it wont make any difference.

Best of luck to you in life, and please check in occassionally to let everyone know how u are doing.

Godspeed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## land2634

Today was sort of tough. Some of you may remember Jim's best friend and roommate (We'll call him John) contacting me several times since October. By many accounts, he seemed to be a nice enough guy even though I knew he had a very rough background. The last time we spoke, he had asked me questions about how I dealt with depression issues and whatnot. I remember being very curious as to why he kept asking.

John was found dead in their apartment yesterday. His questions to me make a lot of sense now. Things like this really put life in perspective I think. As much as I've been so worried over the past year or whatever about my own personal situation, someone's life was lost, for what, given what I know, I can only assume was some sort of drug overdose. In any case, I figured I'd share.


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## turnera

OH, I'm so sorry.


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## Affaircare

Land~

I'm so sorry to hear of this. I realize "John" may not have been a very close friend of yours, but nevertheless he was a human being who was in your life, and it sounds like he was really hurting. As you grieve his loss, just know that both Dear Hubby and I will be thinking of you and praying for you.


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## land2634

Well, as it turns out, John overdosed on Xanax. His doctor had given him a prescription for it back in January, despite John's requests to prescribe something different because he had a history of abusing Xanax.

As it ends up, he was drinking grapefruit juice while taking the Xanax. As many of you may know, grapefruit juice keeps the body's metabolic process from properly breaking down the medication. It basically leaves it all sitting in the bloodstream, and in this case built up to a deadly level. Virtually anyone on the medication is warned of this risk, so it's definitely not something he overlooked.

In any case, nothing new to report. I'm just living life and all that good stuff. I'm actually considering taking a week of vacation and going somewhere nice and relaxing. We'll see what happens, but it's definitely something I want to do soon.


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## i_feel_broken

land2634 said:


> In any case, nothing new to report. I'm just living life and all that good stuff. I'm actually considering taking a week of vacation and going somewhere nice and relaxing. We'll see what happens, but it's definitely something I want to do soon.


Book it land! I'm sure it will help!. I have just booked a three day golf holiday to spain with three friends from my football team. Need to practice the golf ALOT but given me something to look forward to and focus on!


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## jem5

JBMB0922 said:


> Ive been through this before. Ive made all of the mistakes that you should know about so you dont make them.
> 
> First of all, do not kick her out of the house.
> 2nd, do not get angry in front of her.
> 3rd, find out what is missing in your relationship. There is obviously an emotional need that she needs that is not being met.


Could not have said it better myself!


----------



## iamnottheonlyone

Take of your wedding ring to start. Put it somewhere you won't be tempted to put it on or put it on out of habit. That is a real date killer. 
I have met a number of very nice women on Match. You are a great guy so it will be easy for you to be friendly (and amusing!). Show your ability to have fun and be funny (but not goofy...yet.) If you mention you wife once in the online conversation, that is more than enough. No details. Be the good listener. Check your notes from your reading and practice what's been preached.


----------



## land2634

Well, I checked the mail about 10 minutes ago. The final divorce decree was there. The marriage was dissolved as of yesterday. I'm surprisingly numb about it really. I guess I just can't believe this is really how it all ends. Either way, I guess I must push forward.


----------



## turnera

{{{land}}}

The next phase of your life is right around the corner.

Mourn today and get ready for tomorrow. Use all the things you've learned on this journey, get a good handle on who you are and what you can and can't live with...and be prepared to wow some woman in the (distant!) future with your awesomeness.


----------



## land2634

turnera said:


> {{{land}}}
> 
> The next phase of your life is right around the corner.
> 
> Mourn today and get ready for tomorrow. Use all the things you've learned on this journey, get a good handle on who you are and what you can and can't live with...and be prepared to wow some woman in the (distant!) future with your awesomeness.


It'll happen. I'm just glad this place was here with people that helped me find a path and stick with it. Going back and reading, it's obvious I was aimlessly looking for answers. Having been touched my infidelity, everyone can expect me to stick around and hopefully help someone else the way everyone helped me.


----------



## Powerbane

Land - you know she did you a favor? Right? Actually she did a favor for all those other nice women who love and cherish their men!

I'm sure when you're ready - the right one for you will appear. This pain will eventually fade and be replaced with new and joyous memories.

Good luck and thanks for sticking around from time to time. Some of these folks need an ear and some hope and encouragement. 

God Bless!

And I even forgive you for being a Texas fan! I'm a Rays fan myself!:rofl:


----------



## land2634

Powerbane said:


> Land - you know she did you a favor? Right? Actually she did a favor for all those other nice women who love and cherish their men!
> 
> I'm sure when you're ready - the right one for you will appear. This pain will eventually fade and be replaced with new and joyous memories.
> 
> Good luck and thanks for sticking around from time to time. Some of these folks need an ear and some hope and encouragement.
> 
> God Bless!
> 
> And I even forgive you for being a Texas fan! I'm a Rays fan myself!:rofl:


Ha, I'm definitely ready for baseball season.


----------



## Affaircare

Land~

Did you know I sort of consider you a "younger brother"? We're both "in the trenches" helping people through one of the hardest times of their life, and through this time together you've become like a brother, so from now on I dub thee: Lil Bro. 

Lil Bro, I'm sorry to hear that it's finalized. Some part of me does feel sad that yet another marriage fell victim to infidelity and no-fault divorce, but in many ways you and I are in a similar place in that it happened. We're here. It's done. And that's reality. Now we have to accept it, go on, and live a long, full life. What I discovered, to my utter surprise, is that right around the corner will be just what you think/fear may be impossible. I know for a fact that when my divorce was final I thought, "Well that's it. I'm in my 30's with two kids and a Queen Latifah figure, and no one wants that" so I went into my life thinking I'd raise my kids and choose to be happy doing that. Lo and behold, I literally bummed into my Dear Hubby...and a forum much like this one. It was three years after my divorce was final, and by then I'd had a good amount of time to get my head on straight and get to know myself enough to know what would be a better match for me. And surprise of surprises--apparently at "almost 40" you CAN feel butterflies in your stomach and feel all smooshy! LOL :lol: 

I'm sorry it's over. I really do wish she had taken the braver route and done the work to honor her vow...I do. But she didn't and now you're free to live life as you see fit, and I can't help but also feel just a little bit like saying, "Congratulations." You made it--you survived--and you came out a better man for it.


----------



## land2634

Affaircare said:


> Land~
> 
> Did you know I sort of consider you a "younger brother"? We're both "in the trenches" helping people through one of the hardest times of their life, and through this time together you've become like a brother, so from now on I dub thee: Lil Bro.
> 
> Lil Bro, I'm sorry to hear that it's finalized. Some part of me does feel sad that yet another marriage fell victim to infidelity and no-fault divorce, but in many ways you and I are in a similar place in that it happened. We're here. It's done. And that's reality. Now we have to accept it, go on, and live a long, full life. What I discovered, to my utter surprise, is that right around the corner will be just what you think/fear may be impossible. I know for a fact that when my divorce was final I thought, "Well that's it. I'm in my 30's with two kids and a Queen Latifah figure, and no one wants that" so I went into my life thinking I'd raise my kids and choose to be happy doing that. Lo and behold, I literally bummed into my Dear Hubby...and a forum much like this one. It was three years after my divorce was final, and by then I'd had a good amount of time to get my head on straight and get to know myself enough to know what would be a better match for me. And surprise of surprises--apparently at "almost 40" you CAN feel butterflies in your stomach and feel all smooshy! LOL :lol:
> 
> I'm sorry it's over. I really do wish she had taken the braver route and done the work to honor her vow...I do. But she didn't and now you're free to live life as you see fit, and I can't help but also feel just a little bit like saying, "Congratulations." You made it--you survived--and you came out a better man for it.


Thanks a ton. I will admit, I'm at a place where I never thought I could be when this all started. Like many who come to this site, I literally felt like the world was ending. Looking forward, maybe it's really just starting. If my experiences can help others, much the same way you've been able to do with yours, then I think I'll be more than satisfied.


----------



## OWar

Land..best of luck to you. You will do just fine!! Please keep in touch.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## land2634

Heh, I thought this was rather interesting. I received a letter in the mail from her. It was really odd. She basically apologized for the "terrible situation" we'd been through, etc. What seemed incredibly lame was that she went on to say that she knew she had to divorce me because she was "holding me back" from being the person I've become. She said she'd noticed the wonderful person I'd become. I find it interesting that, while she noticed the changes, she still can't admit even to herself that she cheated.

To top it off, my friend saw her and Jim at the video store. She actually made the point to walk up to him, gave him and awkward side hug, and Jim went and hid. He kept peeking around the corner. Just funny...:rofl:


----------



## turnera

Sad how some people will spend their lives.


----------



## jar

Land

I am sorry….

That letter sounds like such BS to me….I am not sure I would even respond.

So what is your plan for the future…What’s next for Land?

JAR


----------



## SadSamIAm

I think her letter was an open invitation. She was telling him, you have changed, I like what I see in you. While she is saying she needs to set him free, she is telling him she is open to him pursuing her.


----------



## land2634

As far as my plan, I don't have one really yet. I'm just kind of doing my normal things. I'm actually doing really well.

As far as it being an open invitation, I'm just not so sure about that. Even if that were the case, she can't even admit to herself that she cheated on me. Either way, that is now her burden to bear, and if Jim is the wonderful guy she makes him out to be, he should be there for her every step of the way, right?


----------



## craigy

Land, this is the most clear, honest, most helpful **** i've read on this site. God bless you brother! I hope I come out the other end of my situation as positive and clear headed as you. I feel like there is a good honest women out there that will love me back just the same through thick and thin. Its tough to put your heart,time and devotion into somebody all to find out they simply don't know who you are. Good luck and Godspeed!


----------



## OWar

Land..don't reply to that BS. You are past all this and you are moving on with your life. You are right, its her burden to bear. I feel so sorry for her. You are very level headed and you're going to be just fine.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lordmayhem

I've been reading this thread for a few months now. At least you can console yourself with the fact that you found out so early in the marriage what type of person she really is before you invested years of your life and possibly children with her. She's definitely not the type of woman that you would want to spend the rest of your life with. If not Jim, then there would have been some other man down the road when she gets bored again.

What would have happened down the road in 10, 15 years when you possibly are in the process of raising children, paying the mortgage and other bills, with finances and possibly joint property, and she decides to cheat again just because some other man takes a fancy in her? She's proven that she has very weak boundaries and would not even hesitate for a nanosecond to cheat again. That's how broken this woman is.

Things happen for a reason. While it may not feel like it now, one day you will look back on this and be thankful that you got out of this marriage with her.


----------



## Jellybeans

land2634 said:


> Heh, I thought this was rather interesting. I received a letter in the mail from her. It was really odd. She basically apologized for the "terrible situation" we'd been through, etc. What seemed incredibly lame was that she went on to say that she knew she had to divorce me because she was "holding me back" from being the person I've become. She said she'd noticed the wonderful person I'd become. I find it interesting that, while she noticed the changes, she still can't admit even to herself that she cheated.


It's sad that she can't admit her cheating but that is because she probably hasn't accepted the gravityof her actions yet, and its consequences.

That's noted by her and Jim hiding from your friend. Affairs are ugly and once they are out in the open, not as much fun anymore.

Don't respond to her.


----------



## land2634

Hey everyone,

It's been awhile. I just wanted to check in and throw a few things out there that have been going on. I've been enjoying the full swing of baseball season and whatnot. As far as my personal life goes, for those wondering if there is indeed life after divorce, there is.

I have a date this upcoming week, the first since the divorce. It's someone I've actually known since I was 17. We've always seen each other around through the years and whatnot, and through mutual friends, she's very aware of the situation I've recently finished with.

Speaking of, my ex-wife still can't deal with the hole she dug herself. My younger brother's girlfriend was registering for classes at the community college where my ex-wife is a financial aid coordinator. She was there with a friend, who saw my ex-wife and said, "Hey... isn't your boyfriend's last name Land too?" My brother's girlfriend obviously knew who she was and said she seemed petrified... apparently she can't even admit to co-workers that, not only did she cheat, but that she divorced me.

The theme keeps coming up, but I'll say it again: It's really a shame how some people will continue with living their lives.


----------



## lordmayhem

She'll one day see that the grass really isn't greener on the other side of the fence, and that reality will smack her square in the face when Jimbo gets tired of her when some new girl comes along and strikes his fancy. You already said that he's been talking to other women during the time he was taking your wife from you. It's only a matter of time.... And when that time comes, you will have moved on, hopefully with someone who actually values her marital vows and believes in forsaking all others. You will look back at this someday and wonder why the heck you put up with her crap for so long.

When you are healed, you *WILL* ask yourself "What was I thinking?" with regards to your ex-wife.


----------



## loveslife2011

land,

i just saw your thread. i am going through a lot of the same thing. I discovered an EA between my husband and a coworker. We are going to the marriage counselor on Wednesday. 

Is there any advice you can give me?

I may have nipped it in the bud, but I am not exactly sure (could be underground now). 3-4 weeks after it started, I confronted him. When it continued for 2 weeks, I confronted both him and her (separately). So, they were "outed". He admits it was wrong and says he has stopped it. (also have a mutual, married friend on my side, and the pastor is supposed to be calling him to discuss where he is on his spiritual walk).

Please let me know if you can help. Thanks.


----------



## lordmayhem

loveslife2011 said:


> land,
> 
> i just saw your thread. i am going through a lot of the same thing. I discovered an EA between my husband and a coworker. We are going to the marriage counselor on Wednesday.
> 
> Is there any advice you can give me?
> 
> I may have nipped it in the bud, but I am not exactly sure (could be underground now). 3-4 weeks after it started, I confronted him. When it continued for 2 weeks, I confronted both him and her (separately). So, they were "outed". He admits it was wrong and says he has stopped it. (also have a mutual, married friend on my side, and the pastor is supposed to be calling him to discuss where he is on his spiritual walk).
> 
> Please let me know if you can help. Thanks.


Any updates? Have you verified NC?


----------



## land2634

Well, this is what I woke up to in my Facebook inbox this morning:

_"Hi. I miss you and hope you are doing ok and I'm truely sorry for hurting you in many ways. I know you have hurt so much and that hurts me alot everyday.You were my best friend for so long and I guess I felt like I couldnt get past your family when everything happened. I felt like everyone was against me so I just kept running. I feel alot of guilt because I hurt you so please please forgive me. Im sorry I ruined your plans and your life; I planned for forever too..I just got weak in the end and felt like I couldnt do it anymore. I saw your brother again the other day and I know yall probably say terrible things about me, but I love him so much and do miss him."_

Guess everything with Jim isn't going so perfect. Maybe she's actually realizing what she ran away from. Either way, odd.


----------



## lordmayhem

land2634 said:


> Well, this is what I woke up to in my Facebook inbox this morning:
> 
> _"Hi. I miss you and hope you are doing ok and I'm truely sorry for hurting you in many ways. I know you have hurt so much and that hurts me alot everyday.You were my best friend for so long and I guess I felt like I couldnt get past your family when everything happened. I felt like everyone was against me so I just kept running. I feel alot of guilt because I hurt you so please please forgive me. Im sorry I ruined your plans and your life; I planned for forever too..I just got weak in the end and felt like I couldnt do it anymore. I saw your brother again the other day and I know yall probably say terrible things about me, but I love him so much and do miss him."_
> 
> Guess everything with Jim isn't going so perfect. Maybe she's actually realizing what she ran away from. Either way, odd.


So all isn't well in affair land with Jimbo? Was that a PM or did she write that on your wall? Saying you exposed the A to your family is just a way of justifying her cheating to herself. Either way, it's a good thing you didn't have kids with this woman. She's definitely not the type of woman you can life your life with and grow old with. Especially if she cheated so early in your marriage.

You were competing against the fantasy she had with Jimbo, and that was a losing proposition from the beginning. No one can compete with the lovely affair fantasy a WS has of the OP. And now reality is creeping in now that she's been living with him. Now she can see him when he wakes up in the morning everyday, his temper, and the rest of his qualities that everyone has that we don't show to everyone. The grass isn't greener on the other side of the fence.

Just consider her a closed chapter of your life and don't respond. She's just a person with weak personal boundaries. I bet the next relationship she has after Jimbo will be yet another coworker.


----------



## turnera

I would answer: "Good to hear that you're acknowledging your shortcomings. That's the first step in learning and growing and becoming a better person; the second step is to actually change."


----------



## lordmayhem

turnera said:


> I would answer: "Good to hear that you're acknowledging your shortcomings. That's the first step in learning and growing and becoming a better person; the second step is to actually change."


I think thats a great answer, but I feel it only encourages further discussion at a time when Land is still a little vulnerable and trying to move on. This letter from her suspiciously looks like *she's fishing for a response*, as maybe her affair with Jimbo may or may not be going south. I've been in that vulnerable state after the divorce, for some, the divorce is still raw. Land is healing and moving on, and engaging this woman in any way could stunt the progress that he's made.


----------



## turnera

No reason for him to answer at all, but if he does, throwing it back on her is the way to go.


----------



## MrQuatto

I also agree it sounds like fishing. "gee, I am not as happy as I thought and now I am struggling with less money, less stuff, etc. Maybe I can con him in to taking me back?"

Asi i said before, there is no rule you can't get back together, even after a divorce but you best be sure of where YOU want ot be in the future. You finally are free form a devastatingly horrible situation, all that pain and misery and depression, it takes time to heal, Land. Dont rush into anything from here.

Q~


----------



## the guy

I think your exwife has a templat of that email and every three months send it out...wierd

You might want to go back and breeze through your thread, but her BS sound so familar.

Let me guess, you respond, she responds, the both of you meet a radom place, and by the end of the week you will get another email from her saying "she can't do this, I'm sorry blah blah blah, and she won't contact you again for another month. 

Same sh*t different month man.

I hope some day she takes care of her self and fixes whats wrong inside her. I hope some day you will get an email that doesn't start out with an apology, but with a statement of recognition, a statement making a claim of improvement not failure.

Hows the dog?


----------



## land2634

the guy said:


> I think your exwife has a templat of that email and every three months send it out...wierd
> 
> You might want to go back and breeze through your thread, but her BS sound so familar.
> 
> Let me guess, you respond, she responds, the both of you meet a radom place, and by the end of the week you will get another email from her saying "she can't do this, I'm sorry blah blah blah, and she won't contact you again for another month.
> 
> Same sh*t different month man.
> 
> I hope some day she takes care of her self and fixes whats wrong inside her. I hope some day you will get an email that doesn't start out with an apology, but with a statement of recognition, a statement making a claim of improvement not failure.
> 
> Hows the dog?


I was actually thinking as much. She did this in November as well, granted we had actually sort of spoken prior to that. I haven't heard a peep from her in months.

It kinda caught me off guard, but I'm just going to take it for what it is. If she's relying on me to make her feel better about all of this, it isn't going to happen. She's eventually got to face up to it and CHOOSE to improve on it. Until then, the apologies are meaningless.


----------



## the guy

And the dog?


----------



## jar

WOW

I dont even know what I would say if my x wife were to send me an email like that.

JAR


----------



## Jellybeans

She may be fishing. She may just want to say sorry to relieve some of her guilt.

The facts don't change though.

Land, did you respond to her?


----------



## land2634

the guy said:


> And the dog?


The dog is doing well. He pretty much lives a normal dog life at this point. He's definitely got a personality that keeps me laughing at times.



jar said:


> WOW
> 
> I dont even know what I would say if my x wife were to send me an email like that.
> 
> JAR


Yeah, it leaves me feeling pretty weird, I won't lie.



Jellybeans said:


> She may be fishing. She may just want to say sorry to relieve some of her guilt.
> 
> The facts don't change though.
> 
> Land, did you respond to her?


I did. I told her that since she had sent something very similar after the divorce, I was under the assumption she had said what she needed to say and so I'm unsure of exactly what she's wanting to get out of trying to open a line of communication like that again. She said that this time of year is hard (lot of trigger dates that I guess are triggering for her now since they're all one year landmarks) and she feels terrible for ruining my life. Said she needs peace that I'm ok because it's eating at her.

Who knows what's really going through her head...


----------



## Jellybeans

Well, at least she is owning what she did. For whatever it's worth. 

When did you guys finalize the divorce?


----------



## ShootMePlz!

Let it eat at her!!!


----------



## land2634

Jellybeans said:


> Well, at least she is owning what she did. For whatever it's worth.
> 
> When did you guys finalize the divorce?


Although she is admitting to leaving and the pain she caused, she hasn't exactly owned up to cheating. I guess that's the unspoken understanding in a way.

Divorce was finalized February 18.


----------



## lordmayhem

As for her saying she ruined your life: I would respond with: "No, you didn't ruin my life. Now I'm free to find a wife who will honor and cherish me, not cheat on me, and honor the vows that she made to me, family, and God."


----------



## Jellybeans

^ Nah, don't even give her that. 

I wouldn't even respond. You already told her you thought she'd said what she needed to say before. No more discussing. She's part of your past. Leave her there.

She either finally understood what she did and how bad it was and how many people it effected OR she realized the grass wasn't greener and the guilt stems from there.

Either way, not your problem anymore! Carry on!


----------



## lordmayhem

I wouldn't have responded either, but unfortunately he did, so that's what I would have said if I were him.

land2634, you really need to stop responding to her fishing. Like JB said, she's not your problem anymore. You need to detach from her more for you own good.


----------



## ArmyofJuan

I just finished reading this thread and it’s a good example of why Plan A does not work. I wanted to scream at my monitor 90% of the time. All Plan A did in this situation was enabled the affair and actually pushed her to finalize the divorce. 

I made all the same mistakes Land did and even had a couple of false Rs along the way. My W filed in Jan 09 and I too tried to postpone it. This was after the second failed R and she moved in with the OM a month later. I went NC with plans to wait her out (I knew it would fail with the OM in time) but I ended up getting my strength back and started dating. Instead of trying to stop the D, I PUSH for it to be over as quickly as possible so I could get on with my life w/o her.

This didn’t sit well for her and she put the brakes on the D real fast. Nothing stops a D faster than actually agreeing to it.

We are 2 years in R now and I honestly believe when I decided I wanted out of the marriage and was over my W that is what brought her around and made her earn my affection back.

If there was a chance to have save this it would had been from a 180/Plan B approach. There’s still a chance that down the road she may want to try again but that will be AFTER Land has moved on and lost interest in her. They only come back when they think they lost you for good.


----------



## Jellybeans

armyofjuan said:


> i just finished reading this thread and it’s a good example of why plan a does not work.


I hate Plan A!!!


----------



## lordmayhem

ArmyofJuan said:


> I just finished reading this thread and it’s a good example of why Plan A does not work. I wanted to scream at my monitor 90% of the time. All Plan A did in this situation was enabled the affair and actually pushed her to finalize the divorce.
> 
> If there was a chance to have save this it would had been from a 180/Plan B approach. There’s still a chance that down the road she may want to try again but that will be AFTER Land has moved on and lost interest in her. They only come back when they think they lost you for good.


:iagree:

That's why she's fishing. She won't stop until he stops taking the bait.


----------



## AFEH

Jellybeans said:


> I hate Plan A!!!


It's a process designed to gain a PhD in being a Nice Guy Doormat.


----------



## Jellybeans

^ Exactamundo. 

It's "Hey I will be here for you no matter what so please do carry on your affair while I tell you I don't like it but do nothing about it and let you walk all over me, okay???"


----------



## iamnottheonlyone

So JAR and I have a chance to think about how we would respond if such a thing happened to us. Now that my W's sister has done the same thing they can mutually support their errors. I doubt I will ever get such a notice. Let the guilt eat at her. It appears she has a conscience. There is soul lurking in the dark. Does she feel bad for you or for herself?


----------



## sadcalifornian

Can't moderator do something about this poster?


----------



## Jellybeans

About which poster? This thread is from June.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## pidge70

Jellybeans said:


> About which poster? This thread is from June.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



There was a spam posting across a bunch of older threads.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Jellybeans

Freaking spammers! There was one on here not too long ago that kept wanting everyone to buy a refrigerator. LOL.


----------



## Jonesey

Land can we have a update please!
Are you ok?


----------



## land2634

Hey Jonesey, I'm doing just great. Near the middle of August, I started a new job. So far, that's been going well.

I've sort of been back on the dating scene a little, but nothing serious has really come to fruition as of yet. I still go to the gym and do the things I've come to enjoy over time. What's been really great is I've been able to go to more baseball games this year, something I didn't get to do much over the years. I'll be at a World Series game on Sunday with a good friend (who interestingly has Jim, the other man from the affair, as his supervisor at work). Overall, it's just going well. Obviously, life can change at a moment's notice, but I'm well-equipped to handle the challenges thrown my way.


----------



## turnera

Go Rangers!


----------



## Jonesey

land2634 said:


> Hey Jonesey, I'm doing just great. Near the middle of August, I started a new job. So far, that's been going well.
> 
> I've sort of been back on the dating scene a little, but nothing serious has really come to fruition as of yet. I still go to the gym and do the things I've come to enjoy over time. What's been really great is I've been able to go to more baseball games this year, something I didn't get to do much over the years. I'll be at a World Series game on Sunday with a good friend (who interestingly has Jim, the other man from the affair, as his supervisor at work). Overall, it's just going well. Obviously, life can change at a moment's notice, but I'm well-equipped to handle the challenges thrown my way.


Thanks for the update mate.. Wish you all the best
Dont forget you have everything going for you:smthumbup:


----------



## TRy

land2634 said:


> she was diagnosed with rheumatoid arthritis. She's only 23 years old.


She is going to have issues her whole life that will need the support of a strong and caring partner. Before the divorce, you were willing to be that man. I wonder if she truly valued what that meant.


----------



## land2634

Hey everyone. I felt inclined to touch base today in an effort to help anyone out there going through the pain and trauma of an affair.

Some of you may remember me, while others may need to read through my story in this thread. It's amazing how much someone can grow as a person in what has now amounted to around 2 years since my now ex-wife began walking down the path toward having an affair.

I am in a dating relationship right now. It's been going very well. She knows of my past and accepts that it is a part of what has helped shape me into the person I am today. It feels really nice to be around someone that respects me, and obviously to use some of the tools I have equipped myself with over the last 2 years in order to get the most out of the relationship as possible.

For anyone reading this that has been thinking it seems hopeless: never give up. Whatever you do with your life, always do it with the goal of being the best person you can be. Sometimes, that will mean making sacrifices for others. Maybe you'll need to be that person that steps in and attempts to tell a friend that his/her affair is wrong. Whatever the case may be, all of that hurt you are feeling now will come back to make you stronger later, should you let it.

For anyone nearing the end of a marriage, lacking any real sense of direction: Stay patient. Don't make knee-jerk decisions because you feel like you MUST do something now in order to "move on". Just work on yourself. Don't let society tell you how you're supposed to move on. Everyone has their own timeline, and that coupled with the fantastic tools provided by many on this forum, you're in good hands.

In any case, that's all I wanted to say. I really hope this continues to be a story of hope for anyone that comes across it.


----------



## lordmayhem

It's good to read that you're finally moving on. Are you still responding to her attempts to fish? I certainly hope that you're still not her back up plan. This is a woman that was spreading false accusations that you were beating her and completely disrespecting you and rubbing her affair in your face.


----------



## This is me

land2634 said:


> For anyone reading this that has been thinking it seems hopeless: never give up. Whatever you do with your life, always do it with the goal of being the best person you can be. Sometimes, that will mean making sacrifices for others. Maybe you'll need to be that person that steps in and attempts to tell a friend that his/her affair is wrong. Whatever the case may be, all of that hurt you are feeling now will come back to make you stronger later, should you let it.
> 
> For anyone nearing the end of a marriage, lacking any real sense of direction: Stay patient. Don't make knee-jerk decisions because you feel like you MUST do something now in order to "move on". Just work on yourself. Don't let society tell you how you're supposed to move on. Everyone has their own timeline, and that coupled with the fantastic tools provided by many on this forum, you're in good hands.
> 
> In any case, that's all I wanted to say. I really hope this continues to be a story of hope for anyone that comes across it.


Thank you for your encouragement, advice and words of hope. Patience seems to be one of the hardest virtues to keep in play, for me at least.


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## land2634

lordmayhem said:


> It's good to read that you're finally moving on. Are you still responding to her attempts to fish? I certainly hope that you're still not her back up plan. This is a woman that was spreading false accusations that you were beating her and completely disrespecting you and rubbing her affair in your face.


I haven't heard from her in months. That's fine with me, as I have nothing to say to her at this point.


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## lordmayhem

land2634 said:


> I haven't heard from her in months. That's fine with me, as I have nothing to say to her at this point.


One day you will wonder what you ever saw in her. You're still young and will find a woman that will respect you and her marital vows. Thank goodness you didn't have children with her.


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## Complexity

Glad you've moved on. She was too immature or maybe too young to be married.


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## Jonesey

land2634 said:


> Hey everyone. I felt inclined to touch base today in an effort to help anyone out there going through the pain and trauma of an affair.
> 
> Some of you may remember me, while others may need to read through my story in this thread. It's amazing how much someone can grow as a person in what has now amounted to around 2 years since my now ex-wife began walking down the path toward having an affair.
> 
> I am in a dating relationship right now. It's been going very well. She knows of my past and accepts that it is a part of what has helped shape me into the person I am today. It feels really nice to be around someone that respects me, and obviously to use some of the tools I have equipped myself with over the last 2 years in order to get the most out of the relationship as possible.
> 
> For anyone reading this that has been thinking it seems hopeless: never give up. Whatever you do with your life, always do it with the goal of being the best person you can be. Sometimes, that will mean making sacrifices for others. Maybe you'll need to be that person that steps in and attempts to tell a friend that his/her affair is wrong. Whatever the case may be, all of that hurt you are feeling now will come back to make you stronger later, should you let it.
> 
> For anyone nearing the end of a marriage, lacking any real sense of direction: Stay patient. Don't make knee-jerk decisions because you feel like you MUST do something now in order to "move on". Just work on yourself. Don't let society tell you how you're supposed to move on. Everyone has their own timeline, and that coupled with the fantastic tools provided by many on this forum, you're in good hands.
> 
> In any case, that's all I wanted to say. I really hope this continues to be a story of hope for anyone that comes across it.



That´s my CHAMP:smthumbup: good luck for the future


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