# My wife wants to leave me



## SteelerGuy

I'm not quite sure where to begin, so I'll just start with where my situation is currently. I have been married to my wife for just over 7 years now and we have 4 children together with the oldest being 6. My wife is still talking with me and we are living with each other, but she is strongly considering leaving me for a guy that she has never met but she has talked to online and texted off and on for the last 12 years. I'm at a loss for where to go from here. I love her so much and I am throwing everything that I can at this marriage.

To be fair, I haven't always been the best. I have a lot of issues, dealing with selfishness, gluttony, and I used to sneak things behind her back a lot. We've had many ups and downs throughout the years and we've had fights before where she's left for a night and went to her moms, but she was back the next day. A couple of months ago she caught me sneaking downstairs at night and watching porn and masturbating. She was extremely upset and I thought she was going to leave me then. We made it through that, but a week and a half ago, i got upset at her and snipped at her in front of her family. She said that was the straw that broke the camels back and that she could never forgive me for it. I get that she is embarrassed and really hurt, and I sincerely apologized for it, but she still is not happy.

I started the day after it happened throwing myself 100% into doing the Love Dare and really completely throwing myself into changing for her and completing every task with my whole heart. I have tried this before, but I didn't do it wholeheartedly and i failed after about 2 weeks. I am now at day 10 and she knows that I am doing it and she sees me changing and sees the effort that I am putting in. But she just keeps saying that she doesn't know if I will ever be what she needs and that she thinks this guy might be. She has never met him before and she hasn't talked to him on the phone in at least over 10 years. She doesn't know if he is the right thing ever, but she might want to meet him. She said if she did, she wouldn't do it behind my back. I feel like if she would just shut him out and give us a chance, that it might work. I want to keep doing the love dare and I told her that I would. But I'm not sure what else I can do. I was back in bed sleeping next to her and there was some positive moments last week. Once she leaned over and kissed me and thanked me for trying. And two separate times we had intimate moments. But it seems to be regressing the harder I try and the more I throw myself into it. I love her and I don't want to lose her. The more days that go by, the more I think I'm going to lose her. Where do I go from here?


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## LongWalk

Read Bagdon's thread


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## tainted

Sounds like your wife has been having EA with the guy for 12 years. When did you find out about him? and if she is having an EA then you can't nice her back into the marriage. Good news is she doesn't sound completely checked out .... YET.

Let her know you are willing to work on the marriage and yourself but she has to also.


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## SteelerGuy

SteelerGuy said:


> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It hasn't been EA for 12 years. I've known her for 13 years, and she started talking to him between boyfriends. She was interested in him then, but he lives 6 hours away and she had never met him and her friends and family talked her out of it. We started dating a little over 8 years ago after she broke up with her fiancé. I've known about this guy pretty much the whole time, but she would talk with him only off and on and she openly would talk about when she would talk to him. But recently, she said that he speaks to her in a way that I never could and she's thinking about leaving me. She also said that he is trying to convince her to stay and work on our marriage and that he hasn't come out and asked her to leave, but she knows how he feels. She just isn't sure since she never met him.

Also, she's sees the work that I'm putting in and that I'm truly changing. I know that part of her doesn't think it will last because I tried before and failed. But each time I would try to fix myself, I tried without God's help. I feel different this time and I hope that she can see that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SteelerGuy

For an update, we talked again this morning. She said I know that your mad, and I told I wasn't mad but hurt. She said that I need to understand how much she has been hurting for so long. I told her I understand that and a large part of it is my fault. She said she doesn't see real change in me. That she sees desperation. I told her that I'm trying to make the most of every moment and she said it doesn't come off that way. I know most of that is because she is so hurt and doesn't want to see me that way right now. I am going to continue doing the love dare and keep praying for help. I know that we are supposed to stay together. I just don't know how to keep it from falling apart.


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## funfred

OK, first you need to be in the CWI forum. Second, you will never Nice her back. Also you need to expose her EA to everyone. Right now she has all the power and control. If you expose you take back a lot of that. Now if you do the 180, with exposing, this is your best chance to get her back. Let her know you are done playing. File for Divorce. You have not got much more to loose, just beat her to the punch. By you doing it though, it will knock the wind out of her. It will show her you are not a doormat. It will give you control over the situation. Good Luck


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## SteelerGuy

funfred - Can I move my thread to the other forum. I wasn't sure which one to put it in. I'm not sure about filing for Divorce and using the 180. She isn't completely gone and I know that if I took those two steps, she would be gone. She complains that I don't communicate like she needs. If I suddenly went cold shoulder on her, she would never come back. We are still thinking about the kids and I don't want to force the issue.


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## LongWalk

Read Bagdon

He dealt with his wife planning to leave him, and he managed to do it without divorce. He may even coach you. PM him

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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## nogutsnoglory

SteelerGuy said:


> funfred - Can I move my thread to the other forum. I wasn't sure which one to put it in. I'm not sure about filing for Divorce and using the 180. She isn't completely gone and I know that if I took those two steps, she would be gone. She complains that I don't communicate like she needs. If I suddenly went cold shoulder on her, she would never come back. We are still thinking about the kids and I don't want to force the issue.


get printed documentation of proof of her affair. blow her affair and the length of it up by exposing it to all. Friends, family etc...
If you continue to be a doormat then you will be left at the foor when she walks out. She is in a fog and of course he can say sweet things to her all the time as he is not in any way invested in real life sh** with her. You have a bus load of children, a cheating bit** of a wife and here you are trying to nice your way to the finish line. You cannot win this fight this way. She has her mind made up, so tell her you will not allow her to just leave with the children, but first you need the evidence in hand.
Listen to the advice you get on here, as the others have been through it and know how this plays out. You are making some major mistakes. Bad marriages are shared, but you cannot be seen as trying in her eyes if she is investing the love she has to give into another man, and that is what is happening. You are not ruining the marriage, she is. You trying to fix the marriage will not work due to this. You have no chance as long as she is with him mentally.
Man up.


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## anchorwatch

Lying? 
Gluttony? 
Obsessive masturbation? 
Angry outburst? 
Do you know why you behaved like this?

How do you gauge your self esteem?
Do you work?
How much of your families finances are supported by you?
Who do you think is the leader of this marriage and family?
Do you exercise?

What are you willing to do, to change you?


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## SteelerGuy

anchorwatch - yes, that is part of the problem. I have had lots of demons to conquer. I wasn't choosing to Love first. I was being selfish. I lied to get what I wanted and for gluttony, I have a little bit of an eating complex. It's not all the time and not too severe, but I could embarrass her at times. I had the angry outbursts out of frustration. Our marriage has been very up and down for a while, and when it is down, she would become nit-picky over everything. If I forgot to do something, it was because I didn't care enough about her to remember. If I couldn't find something for her, then I was trying hard enough. Everything would get like that until I would just blow up out of frustration or she would get mad at me for never caring enough to change. I"m not too overweight and I try to exercise every now and then. About two months ago, my wife started working out a lot and she has done really well. I think she did it to get my attention more, but I'm not sure.

Overall, I behaved this way because I was selfish and never put her needs first. I am trying to change that, and I truly am putting her needs first right now. But I don't know if it's enough.

My self-esteem has never been too high. I know I am a good guy and if she was pouring herself into, I would feel great and do great. But if she stumbled and couldn't give me the same support, then I would start to doubt myself and slowly crumble. I work 40 hours a week typically and I am the only money maker in the family. She stays home with the kids. She does plenty of work at home, so I've never been too worried about that part.

Honestly, I am willing to change anything and everything. When she caught me watching porn. I vowed to never watch it again because it crushed her so badly. After that, we started having a really great sex life and things were really great. I remember a moment about a month ago when she was crying and said that she was so happy because she finally was where she wanted. But it didn't last. Things started to deteriorate again because I still wasn't putting her needs first. Then, when I had the outburst in front of her in front of her family, it broke her. It didn't even seem too bad to me at the time, but I know it crushed her. One of the kids was asking me a question and the 2 year old was running somewhere that he wasn't supposed to go and I was trying to handle that, and she was trying to get my attention to let me know that I was blocking her Grandpa's view of the football game. Instead of calmly handling it, I said Her name and Please give me a second. That was the extent of it. I immediately felt bad and apologized and I explained to her that I was sorry, but the damage was already done.

I believe it was at this point that she really started changing how she was talking to this other guy. I might be wrong, but that is what she told me. I wish I could tell myself to go back to a month ago when things were going great and start doing the Love Dare then and build my marriage up. I know I am a big part of the reason that I am in this spot, and that's why I don't know what to do. I don't think I am past the point of no return yet, but I am close. That's why I don't think that pulling the 180 and filing for divorce will fix the problem. It's not going to get her to want to stay. It will literally force the door. She would probably say thank you on her way out the door for making the decision easier for her.

The guy she is talking to is still 6 hours away, and she said that she would never move the family there and she's trying to decide what to do. I'm just hoping that if I fix myself and keep moving forward with the Love Dare and really getting deeper with my relationship with God, that I can show her that I am worth staying with. But I just don't know.


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## wilderness

First of all, this is your wife's fault, not yours.
Second, make sure if your wife leave's you file for temporary full custody, child support, and exclusive use of the home.


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## SteelerGuy

wilderness - I have to at least accept a large responsibility for the situation I am in. When it comes down to it, if I wasn't selfish for so long, I wouldn't be in the situation that I am in.

LongWalk - I've been reading through Bagdon's post. I am encouraged because I don't believe that my wife is leaving anytime soon. I found in the post the NMMNG and I will begin reading through that along with doing the Love Dare and my bible studies. The number one thing that she complains about me is that I do something selfish, get caught, and then just apoligize and become we. She desperately wants a man, and she always is telling me that I need to Lead More and be a better man. I have struggled with this for a long time, probably because I didn't have a better example from my Dad. My wife always tells me that I am turning into my Dad and she didn't marry him. And I am by nature a pleaser / nice guy. I've always been that way. It's gotten me screwed in the past and right now. I know that if I can show her that I can be a strong leader in the house, that I can win her back. I need to keep fighting.

I saw that he was successful in the end, although I don't think there was another guy in his picture. I need to start working out more and better myself. I've lost almost 10 pounds just from controlling my eating habits and if I truly strive to better myself, she will see that. Please pray for me.


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## wilderness

SteelerGuy said:


> wilderness - I have to at least accept a large responsibility for the situation I am in. When it comes down to it, if I wasn't selfish for so long, I wouldn't be in the situation that I am in.
> 
> LongWalk - I've been reading through Bagdon's post. I am encouraged because I don't believe that my wife is leaving anytime soon. I found in the post the NMMNG and I will begin reading through that along with doing the Love Dare and my bible studies. The number one thing that she complains about me is that I do something selfish, get caught, and then just apoligize and become we. She desperately wants a man, and she always is telling me that I need to Lead More and be a better man. I have struggled with this for a long time, probably because I didn't have a better example from my Dad. My wife always tells me that I am turning into my Dad and she didn't marry him. And I am by nature a pleaser / nice guy. I've always been that way. It's gotten me screwed in the past and right now. I know that if I can show her that I can be a strong leader in the house, that I can win her back. I need to keep fighting.
> 
> I saw that he was successful in the end, although I don't think there was another guy in his picture. I need to start working out more and better myself. I've lost almost 10 pounds just from controlling my eating habits and if I truly strive to better myself, she will see that. Please pray for me.


No way, dude. She is stepping out on your marriage. It doesn't matter what you did or didn't do, that's on her 100%.


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## SteelerGuy

I don't think so. She hasn't stepped out yet and she hasn't been happy for a long time. That's on me.

I started reading the NMMNG book, and it is absolutely flooring me. That is me to a T. I couldn't possibly be an closer to the descriptions in that book. It's making me cry as I'm going through it (only on page 15 so far) because it is describing everything that I've wanted to fix in my life but I haven't been able to. I pray that this is what finally guides me to truly being there for my wife.


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## anchorwatch

You will need to get rid of those bad behaviors. Not because she wants you too or you're in fear losing her. You need to change for you, because you want to be a better man, thus partner and father. Thus, a leader by example. Some one others want to be around. 

I assume you have apologized to her and explained what your plan is. That your intent is to improve yourself and in that the marriage. That you foresee a better self and a marriage where you both can be fulfilled. Now that's said, actions count, not words. 

You should ask her to stop interaction with the OM, as long as you are both living as a married couple. Explain this as a disrespectful distraction to you and the children during this period of confusion. That if she decides she wants him, she is free to go. Until then you don't know how long you will be there for her while she continues contact with another man, as you cannot share your wife. Again, now that's said, actions count, not words.

I'm not a big fan of the love dare, but you started it finish it. Do it without looking to clingy. Don't make a covert contract! You decided to do it, she didn't, so don't expect anything back for it.

I see you have NMMNG, let us know how that fits?

Read this too, Home | The 5 Love Languages®

Have you tried MC? 

Look into one of these, 
Welcome | WWME
Marriage Help Program For Couples

Be patient.


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## IndecisionIsTorture

wilderness said:


> No way, dude. She is stepping out on your marriage. It doesn't matter what you did or didn't do, that's on her 100%.


Steeler, this is solid advice right here. You need to get your head wrapped around Wilderness' comment.

You may have played a role in the _state_ of your marriage, but the _actions_ are all hers.


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## SteelerGuy

Yes, I understand that. One thing that sticks out is on Day 10 in the Love Dare they talk about Agape love, unconditional love. I talked to her last night about that, and I told her that no matter what I will always love her and that if she is willing to leave, then she couldn't have ever unconditionally loved me. Her response was that she's not sure if she is capable of that except for her mom and her kids, and she struggles with one of our kids because he is a lot like me. The reason for that is her Dad left her Mom for a stripper when she was five and she has never recovered from that. I think he falls into the same nice guy category and he chose to please all of his wives or girlfriends throughout the years over her. She is fundamentally broken from that. It is also why the pornography hurt her so bad since it is essentially in the same category.

I understand the advice, and I agree that she has to stop searching with this other guy for us to have a chance. She partially feels like he might be the one that got away since she never gave him a chance and it isn't working with us. She is very confused.

anchorwatch - so far it is a perfect fit. I am that to a T. It's everything my wife has ever complained about me and more. It's everything that I've always wanted to fix and didn't know how.


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## cdbaker

I think you have the right idea and the right game plan. 

Is what she is having right now an EA? Right now it most certainly is. Has it always been an EA? That's perhaps a bit more debatable, but it doesn't change anything. The reality is that it is an EA right now and you two will not be able to move forward with him in the picture. He has to go. If I were you, I'd try to reach out to him to tell him to back off completely. If he is really urging her to commit to you, then he won't have a problem with this. If he's a lying sack of ****, which I'm guessing he is, then he'll just continue communicating with her and maybe try to speed up his seduction of her now that he knows he's been caught. She also won't be able to use the excuse of, "Don't worry about him so much, he's on YOUR side anyway!" nonsense.

If that doesn't work, then I agree with others here in that you should find the evidence of their relationship crossing lines and make that evidence public. Remove the allure of the hidden/naughty relationship, make it all public so that she might have friends/family come to her aid with healthy advice, and allow her to feel a little bit of deserved guilt/shame.

Either way, he needs to go. You simply cannot expect any kind of positive result with her continuing to be permitted to go chat/talk with him every day. If he is a decent human being, he'll walk away willingly.


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## anchorwatch

Now *you* have a starting point to work from.

Here read what other are going through and their journeys. 
No More Mr. Nice Guy Online Support Group 

Actions, not words!

The OM/OSF (opposite sex friend) has been in the background of your entire marriage. This has allowed her to have a plan B, all along. Sort of, one foot in and one foot out. This may be compensation for her fear of abandonment. If he was a friend of the marriage he would encourage her to exhaust every resource to work on the M, as we are doing for you. You may have to confront him in time, as to why he thinks he is entitled be a third person in your marriage. What ever you do this will need to be resolved. She will need help for the abandonment issue. 

Have you discussed these thoughts with her? Ask her to MC. You could use a third party to address the OM and others who are not friends of the marriage like MIL.


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## SteelerGuy

cdbaker - thank you for your response. I contemplated calling him and asking him to back off, but I don't know what will happen when he tells my wife about it. Couldn't she get pissed off by this and become even more reserved? If he is the decent guy that she thinks that he is, then he would simply back off. He is her best christian influence. But my fear is that he isn't as sweet as he sounds to her (he's 36 and single, never been married and no meaningful relationships in 10 years - this could also be a lie though since it is an online thing). If that is the case, he could grab her even more and pull her away.

As far as getting it out into the open, her Mom already knows about it and is encouraging her to meet him. At least that is what she told me. I think I lost her mom's support when I got upset with her at the family get together. I agree that it is now EA and he needs to be leave. I flat out told her that if she is confused, then she needs to leave him out for a while so we can have a chance.

BTW, how long does it realistically take to see a change from NMMNG?


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## SteelerGuy

Also, I know I have an uphill battle with trying to win her back. But I feel so encouraged by NMMNG and my other tools. Please pray for me.


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## manfromlamancha

Steeler, whether you choose to believe this or not is up to you but from what you have said, this is an ongoing EA that has been 12 years in the making right through her time with her previous fiancé and you. That is emotional cheating pure and simple. He has fulfilled needs of hers through this time and this is a natural conclusion to what has been happening right under everyone's noses! So your first step is to acknowledge it for what it is. Now add to this your bad behaviour and you can understand that it did nothing to stop this (however, the affair & yes, it is an affair, is completely on her). As everyone is telling you, you are never going to nice her out of the affair or bring her back to you by being wishy washy. You really have to be prepared to lose her in order to win her back if there is indeed anything there worth having back - it might be that you are clinging on to some memory of her that you have. Her only being able to unconditionally love her mom and kids is a big indicator that she has some (man related) issues and these need to be addressed - could have been brought on by her father's behaviour as you say.

You need to fix yourself first (physical fitness, 180 to repair your self esteem, read the books being recommended etc) but also prepare yourself for the worst - which is she doesn't love you, is preparing to exit this marriage and appears to have all her ducks in a row even if you don't. This business of losing it over something that appeared to be trivial at the family together is just an excuse. Also I have seen this before where a mother has man issues due to her husband's bad behaviour and then projects this onto her daughter which may be why your wife is the way she is and also why her mother is encouraging this affair! In this case the MIL is toxic to this relationship.

Get tough, improve yourself and get prepared.


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## anchorwatch

BTW, I'd let MIL I know she is not acting as a friend of the M. She should be advocating MC, before adultery.


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## manfromlamancha

Also in treating this as an affair, expose, expose and expose! Blow the OM up and let him know that you know about his 12 year affair with your wife! If you combine this with a proper implementation of the 180 she will not see you as weak. Remember the 180 is to make you strong and not for you to be vindictive or rude to your wife.


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## SteelerGuy

manfromlamancha - can you please explain more about 180? I did a little research and from what I could find, I'm not sure how it will help. Also, it directly conflicts with the Love Dare, which I promised her and myself that I would complete. Which direction should I go?


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## LongWalk

You understand that the other comes into picture because your wife no longer feels secure. Bagdon's wife was fantasizing about his replacement. The essential problem is the same.

Bagdon lost weight but did not talk about it he just did it. Do not say a word about your gluttony. Eliminate it as if had never been a weakness.

Change and leadership should laconic. Speak less but mean 100% of what you say

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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## cdbaker

The mom is encouraging it? Wow, not good, especially if she is close with her mom.

Again you can make clear that the OM is a big problem right now, but be careful not to paint it as if he is THE problem. THE bigger problem has been your own behavior and hers as well, independent of OM. But in order for those issues to get resolved and for the marriage to move forward, the OM still must be removed from the picture.

I say that because I could easily see your wife or MIL try to interpret this as you wanting to blame the OM for all or most of your problems. That isn't the case. Those problems just can't get better with him still involved is all.


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## SteelerGuy

cdbaker - that's what she said. Her mom and dad divorced and she remarried when my wife was a little older, but her mom speaks of regrets and guys that she could have left her husband for in the past that she thinks might treat her better. My wife used to have an issue with divorce, but now seems to be more ok with it. I think her mom could be a big reason in that. Her mom is a great woman and I love her too, but that obviously won't work. I thought about confronting her mom. Do you think that's a good idea?


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## cdbaker

Yeah... the 180 is basically the opposite of the Love Dare. And I'm not sure how you'll find a way around it. 

Believe me, I like the concept of the Love Dare. I think it can be helpful when a marriage is showing signs of weakness (Meaning before the marriage is about to go over the cliff. More like it is starting to climb the hill where the cliff is at, if that makes sense) and when there isn't 3rd person involved. The thing is, I think committing to the love dare was a mistake in this situation, because she has already turned her attention to another particular person and the prospect of divorce now plainly visible to all involved. That means your efforts will come across, just as you have begun to notice, profoundly annoying, desperate and unbelievable. Unbelievable meaning that she'll believe that you're just doing it as a desperation measure, and her giving the marriage another chance will just relax you again and you'll return to your old ways.

I would agree that the 180 is much more in line with what you aught to be doing right now. Of course, breaking a promise you only just made means that doing so will be tough. So on the one hand, I think doing the Love Dare right now likely won't produce any positive results. Switching to the 180 all of a sudden could also just show how uncommitted you are and that you don't value her enough to stick with anything.


Just thinking "out loud" here for a moment... my first thought is that you continue doing what you are doing as far as the Love Dare, but also have a discussion with her where you lay out your boundaries a bit. Those being that her involvement with this OM is only hurting the marriage, with no chance of benefiting it in anyway. Since she knows you're trying to do the love dare, let her know that you love her and look forward to continuing to show her that you are genuine about changing into the man she wants you to be. But if she is going to continue to harm the marriage by continuing to be involved with the OM, then you can't support that and feel that you should begin discussions regarding a separation or divorce plan.

Remember that a legal separation or divorce takes a VERY LONG time to happen, so you'll have lots of time and other opportunities before anything could be final.

If she isn't interested, then you have good justification for ending the Love Dare and switching to 180.


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## manfromlamancha

The 180 is a set of guiding rules/principles of behaviour that is designed to make you focus on yourself and improve your self-esteem and behaviour in general while not pandering to your wife's behaviour. It encourages you to cut off unnecessary communications with your wife until she acknowledges that she is doing something wrong (having an affair while married) and is ready to stop. Else you continue to love her but not condone this behaviour and certainly not enable it or be part of it. In focussing on yourself this way you become stronger and better, but also and equally importantly, it makes you a lot more attractive and desirable to your wife. Now this will only work if you also try and stop the affair by blowing it up and also that here are no deep seated problems with your wife (which appears to be the case with regard to her mother and father). I know that it may be at odds with your other approach and I cannot comment on the success rate of the other approach, but I can vouch for the 180 - mainly because I practised it at a time when I didn't even know it was called the 180 and it worked very well for me. Add to this the fact that I have seen quite a lot of success on this board with it. I will dig around for a link to it and post it. If you do decide to follow it then may be you should tell her that that while you will do everything to follow the other approach but that you will also have to focus on making you a better and stronger person and that you will not tolerate an affair while being married.


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## manfromlamancha

Here is one link to the 180 that I managed to find:

The Healing Heart: The 180


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## cdbaker

I think it might be worth talking to your mom yes. I'd say "confronting" her sounds a little harsh though, because you don't want to put her off and turn her into a full-on enemy. I'd say the goal would be to show her how much you've learned and how you realize you've screwed up (and she has too) and that you know you have a lot of ground to make up and are 100% committed to doing so, and that she too is welcome to help keep you in check and offer guidance as well. Don't say something like, "Divorce is wrong" because you'll offend her, even if you do feel that way. Instead relay that divorce is a terrible thing because it causes so much pain and suffering in it's wake, because there is no such thing as a winner in divorce. Certainly in some situations it becomes necessary, and people do recover from them and find new relationships to be happy with in the future, having learned many lessons from the first marriage. 

With that said, you can skip the divorce/pain/heartache part and take those lessons that you have already learned and build that future happiness with your wife right now. Are there other good men out there who could make your wife happy? Of course there are. Have you been that guy for the last 8 years? No you haven't. But is there any other man out there who is capable of building that happy loving marriage and life for you, your wife and your kids without having to put everyone through the heartache, emotional scaring and financial hardship of a divorce? No there is not, and that is the point. There is no better scenario available than the one that involves you and your wife rebuilding your marriage into a happy and loving life together, for everyone involved. So the ONLY questions of importance is whether you are really committed to doing what is necessary or not, and if she is willing to commit to the same.

You've said that you are. You'd love to have your MIL's support, and you should not expect her to believe you right now, but rather you'd appreciate her help in your efforts to change. If If your wife is not willing to commit to the same, then why is she still there? She should pack up and move out.


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## anchorwatch

Continue working the NMMNG breaking free exercises as a lifestyle change. That's for you and your future. 

I would finish the Love Dare. 

Then give something of the carrot and stick talks as I described in my other post. (Your vision of the future, including MC and the consequences of continued interferance by the OM and MIL) 

If she agrees to work on it continue to use those resources you have found and MC. 

If she doesn't agree, then the 180 list is in order. 
180 List - No More Mr. Nice Guy Online Support Group

BTW, I don't get how these people call themselves Christians and not stand for marriage vows before God. What does your pastor have to say about this?


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## SteelerGuy

I don't know. This guy has been her best christian support person throughout these last 12 years, albeit off and on. And I pointed out that just by him getting in the middle of our marriage, whether she is happy or not is proving that he is not what she thinks. She said very explicitly that he is being respectful and not saying how he really feels, but they are still discussing our marriage. My feeling is that he doesn't come out and say that he loves her, but he slowly destroys our marriage so he can swoop in and save her.


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## cdbaker

Anchorwatch, I agree with you about your position regarding marriage and their christian faith.

My understanding of the scriptures, through a lot of personal research is that God HATES divorce. I believe it's clearly stated that way. Divorce is NOT a sin, but God HATES divorce. Why? Because it's clear that divorce hurts everyone involved. There is absolutely no winners in divorce. What "He has made whole" cannot be easily or comfortably separated. Specifically there are two instances where God acknowledges divorce as being appropriate, in situations of adultery or being unequally yoked in faith, and ONLY when the other spouse in that situation is pushing for divorce first.

Meaning if my wife cheats on me but ultimately wants to stay with me and make the marriage work, I should still stand by her. If my wife cheats on me and decides she wants a divorce to go be with the OM, then I am not obligated to fight it, in fact I should grant it.

In this case, I would say that her EA qualifies as cheating, and I think him doing everything he can to save the marriage is both noble and the right thing to do, but if it ultimately fails, he will not have failed himself or his faith if it goes to divorce court. (at least not since he woke up and realized how deteriorated his marriage had become)


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## anchorwatch

The OM is a beta (nice guy) orbiter. 

In other words, he is not alpha (confident) enough to actively or overtly pursue her. His pursuit is covert. He uses methods such as friendship and counseling to keep himself in your wife's life. He positions himself to be there when she falls or you screw up. 

Is he a qualified counselor? No! 
Then why would she use him instead of your pastor or professional? 
Your pastor or a professional, have responsibilities not to get emotionally involved. He doesn't, does he?


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## SteelerGuy

cdbaker - that's my take as well. I know that I'm doing the right thing and I'm trying to better myself as a whole. I know that if she is the one to divorce me because of EA, then that is a sin that she has to live with. I just hope it doesn't come to that.

I think I will finish the Love Dare, because I promised to. But I will back off on the emotional stuff. She did make a comment last night that I am coming off a little desperate. I know I don't want that. What if I implement some if not all of the 180 method. If she wants to see a change, then that will surely do it. If she just saw that I am truly more confident and someone that she can depend on, maybe it will make a difference.


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## anchorwatch

Yes use the 180 as it applies to your situation. 

BTW... By what she said, she knows he feels something for her but is "being respectful"? That only validates everything I've said about him. 

I'd confront him, that I know he wants my wife and I'm not giving up on her or my vows. He should respect our M and back off. He will prove he's a coward and will go back to her, but what can he say, you want to work for your marriage? He's a coward, he can be run him off. 

Actually I'd say worse, but that's me.


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## SteelerGuy

How should I confront him? I have no idea how to contact him, other then sneaking into my wife's phone when she's not looking and getting his phone number. I'm not sure if I should do that or not.


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## SteelerGuy

Is it possible to go through the NMMNG too fast? I am so invigorated by it. I feel like I could easily go through it in a week, but I want the changes to stick. Any thoughts?


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## anchorwatch

SteelerGuy said:


> How should I confront him? I have no idea how to contact him, other then sneaking into my wife's phone when she's not looking and getting his phone number. I'm not sure if I should do that or not.


Finish the Dare. Then have the carrot and stick talk with her. I'd tell her I want to speak to him and ask for the number first. What's could be wrong about speaking to a man that is so close to your wife? Maybe he could give you some marriage advice? Don't take that last sentence seriously. 



SteelerGuy said:


> Is it possible to go through the NMMNG too fast? I am so invigorated by it. I feel like I could easily go through it in a week, but I want the changes to stick. Any thoughts?


Yes it is riveting. Many voice that they went to fast and upon rereads got even more out of it. Start the BFE exercises one chapter at a time. You could post your BFE experiences on the support site, for individual question and answers. 

Here, Breaking Free - No More Mr. Nice Guy Online Support Group


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## VFW

Your wife has given you an important clue and that is to man up. Don't beg, plead, give her excuses, it looks very weak. One thing all women want, is a man with confidence. You couldn't chase a woman away faster if you used a stick, than being like weak. 

Don't call the other man, he doesn't give a hoot what you think. He will call your wife in a New York minute and make it all look like you begging him to stay away. 

First thing you need to do is take a deep breath and realize that you stop doing things to make her love you, stop doing things to keep her from leaving. Stop looking for her validation as the key to your happiness. You need to take a good look at yourself and decide that you need to do certain things, because they are the right thing to do. If she leaves, you can't stop her.

However, if you start exercising this will help to relieve stress and it will make for a healthier you, that should be your goal. You should do your share of helping with the house and children, because that is the fair thing to do. Spend quality time with just you and the children, because that is what good fathers do. Find interests and hobbies outside your marriage to make a better rounded you and will benefit you regardless of she stays or goes.


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## SteelerGuy

I am very confused tonight. I came home tonight ready to do the 180. I came in and said hi to her, but I didn't make it a big deal like I had been. Per the Love Dare and other suggestions, I was coming home and going straight to her and give her a nice hi and embracing her. The last two days she even let her head fall into my shoulder a little bit (but by last night she didn't want to sleep in the same bed as me and went to sleep in the rocking chair and that is when went downstairs and created this post). I then said hi very warmly and sincerely to all of the kids and went upstairs and changed my clothes. I spent some time with my 5 years old and listened to my 6 year old play the piano a little bit. I then went back in the kitchen and said hi to my wife again and started doing a couple of other things. She then snapped, what, are you not talking to me now? I calmly looked at her and said that I need to take care of me and that I was going to do it my own way. She just looked stunned, confused, and a little hurt. She asked if I was still planning on taking our 5 year old to church choir tonight and I said yes. Then I told her that I would like to take a 5 minute walk and then come in and help with the kids and get ready for dinner. She said that was fine.

I honestly was feeling a little guilty during my walk and I was thinking about how I should handle the situation. When I came back it, I looked at very strongly and said, I'm not mad at it. I want to make that clear. I told her that I didn't think that the Love Dare was working and that if anything it was pushing her away, and she agreed. She then said that She didn't think I could change and it wasn't fair of me to expect to change. She said that she read online that kids that grew up in my generation that spent a lot of time playing video games and watching movies have a hard time connecting to things in life and they have a hard time getting real in relationships. To be fair, I played a lot outside, but as I got older I played more video games and i watched a lot of movies too. But I also played sports. At any rate, she said that she didn't think I was capable of changing, and I told her that I didn't think that was true. She also said that this is not about the OM and me as a competition but between me and her. I know the OM being involved complicates things and I wanted to say something, but I held my tongue. I told her that I was trying to change in the only way that i knew how and it wasn't working. But I found a new way how. I didn't get into the specifics of it, but I told her that I was going to work in a new direction. I then took some candy next door for our neighbors to pass out on halloween, and when I got back, she asked if it went ok, and i said yes and that they are such a sweet family. She was quick to point out that they were both re-married. I told her that divorce doesn't always have to be the option and there is a lot of pain in divorce too. She quickly snapped to not lecture her on divorce and pain, and I said that I was only speaking the truth. Then, when we went to set the dinner table she asked if I hate the OM, and I said that I don't hate him but I have a hard time respecting him for getting involved like he is, and she mentioned that her dad hater her Step-dad at first, but thanked him at our wedding for doing what he couldn't do. I didn't respond.

I took my 5 year old to choir, and we found out they scheduled a new choir service in early December. I told my wife about it, and she said that we couldn't go because that was the night of my work Christmas Party. That left me pretty confused, because the work Christmas Party is a couples only event and that is in a month from now. I know things are rocky and the comment that she made earlier about me hating the OM made me think that she is leaning more that way, but then she showed interest in going to the Christmas Party. I kind of figured that she wouldn't be interested in going to that, and she could have been bating me for a response, but I didn't say anything major and I just said that we can't go to that one then.

Later while we were giving our baby a bath, she told me that she has now lost 17 pounds since she started working out, which was her biggest goal, but it has been 5 pounds in 5 days. And she said she isn't eating very much. Part of me feels that she already made a decision and is just biding time (last night she got upset that I made a purchase for her on a CC since it could affect her plans, and when I asked her what plans, she started crying). So I'm not sure where this leads me right now. A big part of me wants to show her the NMMNG book and show how closely it relates to me and how it can help me. I know I shouldn't, but I feel that we were connecting a little bit more tonight since I wasn't coming on strongly. I still don't know if there is any hope left. I also feel compelled to have the talk with her about it not being fair to have the OM involved while the marriage is still a possibility, but I'm afraid of pushing her away and into him. I already talked to her once about it, and I'm not sure how she would respond a second time.

Either way, I plan to keep reading the Love Dare but not doing the Lovey stuff as much that would contradict with the 180. I don't know if I should do the 180 the rest of the way or not

The main thing through all of this is I made a point to be strong and not needy through all of this, and I think that is some good progress. The only thing that I am confused about is that I know that I need to go through this process to truly change and I also know that my wife is dying for me to be that solid rock and to be able to truly express my emotions to her, which is part of why I want to she her NMMNG. I'm just afraid that I'll lose her in the process.

One other thought that I had was to try to pray with her about everything. We haven't tried that yet, but I don't know if that is a good idea or not.


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## SteelerGuy

Another thing that frustrates me is that my wife has been sincerely trying for years to work on everything. She has been a good wife. She is the one that brought up the Love Dare years ago and we watched Fireproof together and started doing the Love Dare every morning. We made it around 2 weeks when I stopped getting up in time to do it it fizzled. I tried to do it at least 5 more times with about the same result. And she also tried to get me to do the 5 Love languages back in May and I didn't know what to do with it. Why couldn't I have found NMMNG 7 years ago. Or 5 years ago. or even a month or two ago would have made a difference and I wouldn't be here right now. It's tough for me to figure that out.


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## anchorwatch

Water under the bridge. 

Would you rather start today or a few years from now? 

You can't change the past. You can change the future!

Don't feel sorry for yourself. Be glad you found your flaws and corrected them. That's what a man does. He corrects his course and moves ahead to the next destination.


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## SteelerGuy

Very true anchorwatch. Thank you. I also wish I could take away all the painful things I did to my wife, but I just have to move forward and let it go. I worry that she won't be able to though.


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## anchorwatch

It's getting late. One question I see that you didn't address. 

Will she go with you to MC or see you pastor/clergy man for guidance as to whether this M is viable or not?


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## SteelerGuy

I've asked her before about marriage counseling several times, or even a pastor, and she always said that she wouldn't go and that I was the one that needed to fix the problems, not her. I even told her that I wanted to talk to the Minister at our church, and she made it very clear that if anybody knew about our troubles, that she wouldn't show her face again. I think that is why the family issue hurt her so bad because it let the whole family know clear as day that everything wasn't all right. She said that she could barely show her face there the next week when we went and that she was embarrassed for me. It makes it hard when you have to continue hiding everything, especially when she is starting to give herself emotionally to the OM. But she has made it very clear that she doesn't think that she is being adulterous because our marriage has been rocky for so long.


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## SteelerGuy

anchorwatch - can you answer two more questions tonight? Should I talk to her about NMMNG and should I bring up praying together about our future?


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## anchorwatch

Not to discourage you, but by your descriptions I don't think it matters to her. 

Dr Glover suggest you tell your wife your starting the program, and to expect change. He also says this will either fix a broken M or kill one that needs to be buried. 

Prayer never hurt anything. I'd ask her to pray that God could give you some help making the changes to lead your family. 

I'll elaborate more in tomorrow. 

Try to get some sleep.


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## SteelerGuy

Thanks. I will get to sleep in a little bit. I still have some more studying, thinking, and praying to do.


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## SteelerGuy

I have one more quick update. I just spoke with my wife and about the program and praying with me. She said she is praying by herself and I told her that we have never really prayed together. She said she is so far away from there right now. As for the program, she simply said no. Then she said that she felt like I was guilt-tripping her about I'm the one trying and she isn't. She said that she tried for so long and gave me so many warnings and she is burnt out. I calmly said that I wasn't trying to guilt-trip, it's simply the truth that I am trying right now and she is thinking about running. I told her a little bit about the program and how it can help. I told her that the truth is that she is giving her heart to someone that is not her husband. She said that no one has her heart right now. I'm not sure that I believe her. I finished by saying that I am going to keep working and I will be hear to talk about things when she is.


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## LongWalk

You cannot beg or wheedle your wife's heart back. 180. Work on yourself.

Stop all the relationship talk. Completely. This is not the time. Every time you talk about the two of you, you are driving her away, causing her to be less attracted to you. Don't you get this by now?

Stop chasing the cat to pet it. It will always run away. Stop chasing and it may return. You cannot say.


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## wilderness

You are taking way too much of the responsibility for this mess. IMO your wife is acting horribly cruel towards you. If I were you, I would expose the affair to your church, parents, friends, relatives, OMs friends, family, work, everywhere.

PS-Steelers will be destroyed by Patriots this weekend. Sorry to add to your troubles.


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## Oblivious2678

Steelerguy, Longwalk is right. Focus on yourself right now. Get busy with the hobbies you enjoy doing. Start a new hobby you've always wanted to try. Surround yourself with your friends. Start exercising on a regular basis. Start that project you've been putting off. All of these things are designed to keep you busy and focused on bettering yourself. 

You will have your up and down moments so be prepared how to control the down moments. Being alone in your thoughts is the worst time. Don't bring up anything about the relationship again to her. If she wants to talk about it, let her bring it up. Keep your answers short and cordial. If you are bettering yourself, she will take notice and you may become more attractive to her. If she doesn't become more attracted to you, then you will be building enough strength and confidence in yourself to move on. This process helps no matter which road is taken. Good luck and remember, you're not alone. TAM is a great resource.


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## SteelerGuy

wilderness - don't worry about that. I had to watch the OSU - PSU last week. It can't get any worse than that. At least I only watched half of the Raiders game.

I hear what you guys are saying and I agree that my wife's tendency to run and committal issues are a big part of this, and she isn't being fair right now. Her going to the OM for emotional support is only making things worse. But for 7 years I have put her through an emotional roller coaster, with many highs and lows, like what are described in NMMNG that Nice Guy's go through. I was down right mean at time when I didn't understand what was going on, and I always hurt her when I would cut her down in front of other people as a reaction to my own insecurities. The truth is that she isn't doing the right thing right now by wanting to leave, and possibly for another man. But we both have our own faults for ending up where we are.

As far as blowing up the OM, every person and situation is different. I get what you are saying and understand for a lot of people, it would be the right thing. But the other thing that you need to understand is that this will lead to divorce. There is no ifs, ands or buts about it. It will lead to my wife leaving. The other part is that not only has my MIL been through a divorce and re-married partially happily, but every person in her extended family in her mom's generation has been married at least twice, and most 3 or 4 times. They also don't look to high on me right now and I don't think they would care that much if she left me for someone else. There isn't a guaranteed solution for every situation, and in my case, I don't think it's the right thing to do. I believe that deep down my wife still loves me or at least wants to love me. She understands the implications of divorce and she just wants to be happy, which she isn't right now. She has said multiple times that she might be better off alone and just take care of her and the kids for a while. Her mom did this for a good 8 years before she got re-married. And in her mom's case, it was a good thing since her dad was a raging angry alcoholic who kept cheating on her and going to strip clubs, etc.

On a separate note, I applied 180 perfectly since I spoke to her last night. I went downstairs and read NMMNG until I was tired, then I went to bed without making a big deal other than telling her good night. I woke up early and felt invigorated.  She was shocked that I was getting up so early (she heard me get up) and I told her that I needed to take care of some things. I studied more this morning until it was time to get the kids up for school. I took care of the kids sweetly and I did all of my responsibilities well, again while being mellow about it. When she finally opened the bedroom door (she's been locking it when she doesn't want me to come in) I simply went in and said hi and got myself ready while not really paying her much attention. Then unprompted, she starting asking me a few questions about the program. I didn't get into too much detail, but I told her what the point of the program is and that I have support in the process and I answered her questions honestly. I was encouraged by the fact that she expressed interest in it. She then said that I should understand why she is feeling so hurt and has felt that way for so long. I said I understood, but that this change is completely about me and not about us, like the Love Dare. I said I had to fix me first. We had normal conversation for the rest of the morning while getting the kids ready for school. I hope this is a step in the right direction.

On another note, I am halfway through Chapter 3 of NMMNG, and it seriously has my head spinning. It is perfectly describing everything that I have always hated in myself but never knew how to fix, even before I got married. I am pulling out memories that I didn't even know that I had. I think I repressed most of my child. I didn't have a terrible childhood, but I wasn't happy. I believe that I can make huge progress by using NMMNG, since I have a clear cut and dry case of Nice Guy Syndrome. I know it doesn't have to be that way anymore.


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## ThreeStrikes

It's quite simple, SteelerGuy.

If your wife won't end contact with OM and commit to your marriage, *you file for divorce!*

You are acting like a co-dependent doormat, and your wife knows it. Right now, she's cake-eating. Take away the cake.

Seriously, brother, how would she like it if you had an on-going EA with some woman who lived 6 hours away? How would she like it if you were threatening to leave her for some woman you haven't met in 12 years??

As I said. It's simple. She ends contact. Now. 

If not, file for D. Watch her scramble and back-pedal.

As Longwalk said. 180. Grow a pair. Being clingy and nice will get you no where.


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## Oblivious2678

NMMNG is a great resource and the 180 seems perfect for your situation. I have read it 3 times to keep me in check. It's great to see that even after 1 day you are seeing results from it. The results may seem small, but they are positive. Keep it going. If you have an opportunity to go to IC while implementing NMMNG into your life, I highly recommend it. It will help with coping with your unhappy childhood.


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## SteelerGuy

Oblivious - thank you for your support. TAM has been a Godsend so far. I am sure of that. He lead me here.

As far as hobbies go, I don't really have time for anything else at the moment. Between work, the kids, studying for certifications for work, general work around the house, and devoting myself to studying NMMNG and other materials, I am completely tapped out. I feel energized now, but I can't give any more, even if it's for me.

For friends, it is even worse. I really don't have many friends left. Most of our friends are friends as a couple friends. Most of them have there own families that they are working on and I haven't really spent much time with them in years. All of my close friends from high school and college have all moved away, and I haven't really been able to sustain a good relationship because I can't give it the time that it needs. Even when they were close, I was devoting all of my time to my family. There are a couple friends that I can call, but I'm not sure who I can trust right now. About a week ago, my wife told me that several of our friends from our past have come up to her privately (probably on facebook) and told her that they always liked her and never told her and tried to convince her to leave and go to them. She said she never considered it because she either didn't like the person or she didn't want to leave. So that leaves me with little wiggle room.

On a positive note, my church just started up a new men's group last Sunday and I want to check it out. Depending on when they have meetings, that could be a really good thing for me. I'll let you know what I decide to do.


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## SteelerGuy

Three Strikes - I'm sorry, but I have to disagree. I am growing a pair. I'm not being clingy like I was while trying the Love Dare. I am doing 180 and letting her come to me. So far it has worked. As for the OM, I still plan on talking to her about it. I was going to bring it up again this morning, but we didn't have time.

And like I said, every situation calls for a different response. Every person is different. It's not about growing a pair. I am growing a pair through the stances I have been taking and I am will talk to her about the OM again, probably tonight. But filing for a divorce right now would end my marriage. Guaranteed. You say it will make her back pedal, but I know that it would make her run. She would view it as me giving up. I don't think she's completely given up. Like I said above, divorce is simply too widely accepted in her family and she was the only one that was stead-fast against it, until now.

I'm going to continue to use 180 and NMMNG as my tools and this community as my primary support.


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## ThreeStrikes

The person who controls the relationship is the one willing to walk away.

You have some hard lessons to learn.

Good luck to you.


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## SteelerGuy

Three Strikes - Maybe I do. But I also have to look at this from a Biblical perspective. Maybe you don't look at it that way. I have to know that I put everything into this marriage and make every attempt to fix myself and make me desirable again.. If she ends up leaving me for the other guy, then so be it. I can't control what she does. Trying to control the whole world around me is what got me into this mess. I can re-gain control of the relationship without being the one to walk away. It's simply a difference of beliefs. To me, failure and divorce is not an option. It's not even on the table.

I have to believe that a restoration is possible. Or at the very least, build me up enough before that so if she does leave, I can still stand on my own. I know that I will get there. I couldn't say that a week ago. I was attractive to my wife once, but I only got worse as our marriage went on. Just please hope and pray for me.


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## tdwal

SteelerGuy said:


> Three Strikes - Maybe I do. But I also have to look at this from a Biblical perspective. Maybe you don't look at it that way. I have to know that I put everything into this marriage and make every attempt to fix myself and make me desirable again.. If she ends up leaving me for the other guy, then so be it. I can't control what she does. Trying to control the whole world around me is what got me into this mess. I can re-gain control of the relationship without being the one to walk away. It's simply a difference of beliefs. To me, failure and divorce is not an option. It's not even on the table.
> 
> I have to believe that a restoration is possible. Or at the very least, build me up enough before that so if she does leave, I can still stand on my own. I know that I will get there. I couldn't say that a week ago. I was attractive to my wife once, but I only got worse as our marriage went on. Just please hope and pray for me.


You do realize that the 180 has nothing to do with attracting your wife back to you. Its about detaching for YOU. Your talking like it is a tool to restore your marriage, it is not.


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## ThreeStrikes

Restoration of your marriage will not be possible as long as OM is in the picture. You cannot compete with her AP. No loyal spouse can compete with the fantasy of an affair.

If you want your wife back, kill the affair first.

The best way to kill an affair is exposure. Tell friends, family, pastor, etc. Expose far and wide.

The 180 is not to win her back. It is to prepare you for D. It usually results in D. 

You really need to move this thread to the Coping with Infidelity subforums. Ask a mod to move it.


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## SteelerGuy

ThreeStrikes - how do I ask a mod to move it?

Well, as a bit of more encouraging news, my wife just sent me an encouraging text out of the blew. She hasn't done that in a while, and certainly hasn't since she's been threatening this. Maybe she isn't as far gone as I thought. Independent of her, feelings, I need to keep up with this process for me.


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## wilderness

ThreeStrikes said:


> Restoration of your marriage will not be possible as long as OM is in the picture. You cannot compete with her AP. No loyal spouse can compete with the fantasy of an affair.
> 
> If you want your wife back, kill the affair first.
> 
> The best way to kill an affair is exposure. Tell friends, family, pastor, etc. Expose far and wide.
> 
> The 180 is not to win her back. It is to prepare you for D. It usually results in D.
> 
> You really need to move this thread to the Coping with Infidelity subforums. Ask a mod to move it.


I'm a believer on Jesus Christ, a believer in the bible like you Steeler, and I fully agree with the quoted post. Read a couple of thousand threads like I have and you will agree, too. These situations almost always play out the same way. If you want to save your marriage, being passive is about the worst thing you can do. It's probably the best way you can guarantee your marriage to fail. Gotta be tough right now. A lot tougher than you are being at the moment. (tough on your wife, I mean)


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## anchorwatch

Stick to the plan! 

The 180 and NMMNG.

Every person needs to build a level of confidence with himself before he attempts to jump to the next step. These will bring you where you need to be, that's your goal. (and a little support from here too, when you need a push)


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## SteelerGuy

anchorwatch - I plan on doing that. What should I do if she keeps trying to communicate with me? She's sent me a couple of texts already this morning. I know that I need to fix me before my marriage can be restored. What if she comes full circle before I'm done with the program, before I'm ready? Should I tell her that I need more time to fix me before we can work on us?

wilderness - perhaps I do need to be tougher on her. But I still won't file for divorce. I'll think and pray about it.


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## anchorwatch

SteelerGuy said:


> What should I do if she keeps trying to communicate with me? She's sent me a couple of texts already this morning. I know that I need to fix me before my marriage can be restored. What if she comes full circle before I'm done with the program, before I'm ready? Should I tell her that I need more time to fix me before we can work on us?


Keep it light and pleasant. Just answer the Q. Do not elaborate anything more than an answer. Do not initiate any other conversation. Don't get dragged into any arguments. If she needs to speak, your primary goal is to listen. You can repeat what she said back to her as a sign that you understood what she wanted, that usually stops further conversation about the same subject. 

It's all in the 180...


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## SteelerGuy

Ok. So far it's been light. She started by saying that she hoped I was having a good day. And there have been a couple of ones about the kids.


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## ThreeStrikes

SteelerGuy said:


> ThreeStrikes - how do I ask a mod to move it?


At the bottom left hand corner of each post, there is a triangle with an exclamation point in it. You can click on it, and ask the mod to move this thread to the CWI forum.


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## azteca1986

SteelerGuy said:


> And like I said, every situation calls for a different response. Every person is different. It's not about growing a pair. I am growing a pair through the stances I have been taking and I am will talk to her about the OM again, probably tonight. But filing for a divorce right now would end my marriage. Guaranteed. You say it will make her back pedal, but I know that it would make her run. She would view it as me giving up. I don't think she's completely given up. Like I said above, divorce is simply too widely accepted in her family and she was the only one that was stead-fast against it, until now.
> 
> I'm going to continue to use 180 and NMMNG as my tools and this community as my primary support.


SteelerGuy, understand this comes from a place of compassion from a fellow husband & father. You are nice guy. You are indeed finding your way again.

But, you will know you have a pair when you are prepared to ruthlessly boot out the mother of your four children for having the temerity of bringing and keeping another man into your marriage for it's entirety. You don't have to when you get there; you just have to be prepared to.

Good luck on your journey to improve yourself.


----------



## SteelerGuy

azteca1986 - Thank you for your post. I know that he can't stay. I'm thinking about how to bring it up to her. Once I get on the other side of this, if our marriage is renewed, she will need to understand that he needs to be out of our lives for good.

I hope I don't get to that point. I feel like there is still love there. There definitely is from me.


----------



## wilderness

SteelerGuy said:


> azteca1986 - Thank you for your post. I know that he can't stay. I'm thinking about how to bring it up to her. Once I get on the other side of this, if our marriage is renewed, she will need to understand that he needs to be out of our lives for good.
> 
> I hope I don't get to that point. I feel like there is still love there. There definitely is from me.


You will never make it to the other side as long as he is in the picture. Bringing it up to her is likely to be useless. Expose, my friend. Exposure is your best chance to kill the affair.


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## azteca1986

SteelerGuy said:


> azteca1986 - Thank you for your post. I know that he can't stay. I'm thinking about how to bring it up to her. Once I get on the other side of this, if our marriage is renewed, she will need to understand that he needs to be out of our lives for good.


Please, don't talk to your wife about this now. You're not ready. You have to get yourself to the point where you will stand in front of her and say:

*"Him or Me. Choose now." 
*
This is why you have to work on yourself. This is why you work on the 180. Her answer is _almost_ irrelevant. You would do that for yourself and your own self-respect. Standing up for yourself, your family and what's right is attractive. Speaking with absolute conviction is attractive. You do not ask her if she would kindly drop her affair partner. You demand it.

But you're not there yet.


> I hope I don't get to that point. I feel like there is still love there. There definitely is from me.


If there's still love there then you have a hope. Your wife is in an Emotional Affair. These a insidious things. Your wife probably doesnt even think she's in an affair. But she is. To her the other man (OM) is just a "good friend". When the time comes, you're right he has to go out of your lives for good. Your marriage won't survive with him in it too.


----------



## movin on

I just read this train wreck of a thread.

So this guy and your wife have been in contact your whole marriage and she is blaming you for the problems? Bull **** !

As long as this guy is in contact with your wife you have zero chance of a true marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SteelerGuy

The last part is a big part of the problem. She doesn't think that she is in an EA. She told me that he is just a friend that is trying to help her. Especially when she was talking about how he was trying to push her to stay in the marriage but talking to her about how what we have isn't a real marriage.

I had another friend trying to give me advice in the past, while he was going behind my back and telling my wife that she should divorce me. She told me about that and I booted him from our life. I found out last week that he was one of the "friends" that tried to get her to leave me for him.

I understand that I am not ready to discuss that with her again yet. And I completely agree that he can't stay in our lives at all. I'm not sure how she will feel about that if she decides to stay and re-build our marriage. But we will find out when the time is right.


----------



## SteelerGuy

movin on - I respect your opinion, and I agree completely. There are a couple of things that I would like to point out about it though. She was always honest to me when she was communicating with him and sometimes she would push him away for even years at a time. He starting talking to her again probably about a year ago, and at that point she probably hadn't talked to him in a couple of years.

Yes it is still EA, and yes he still needs to be gone. I just wanted to give you that insight.

I'm not sure if she ever wanted to leave me for him in the past. Definitely not this strongly if she did. It might be that she pushed him away because he was coming on too strongly. Either way, she told me that he hasn't come out and said it but I know that he loves her or at least thinks that he loves. It's hard to love someone that you never met. I will be glad when he is gone for good.


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## azteca1986

That's the problem with EA's, people can be deep in an affair investing emotionally in someone outside the marriage and they _still_ don't think they're doing anything wrong.

Your wife should not ever be talking about your marriage to her Opposite Sex Friends (OSF). A pastor, a counsellor; fine. As your post indicates there are two types of friends. Those who are friends of the marriage, who see you as a couple. Then there are those who are enemies of the marriage. OM is one, ex-friend is another. OM has to eventually go the same way as the other weasel.

How will she feel? Well, she won't like it at all. Interactions with OM actually give her a naturally produced 'high'. An EA is addictive. SO she'll have to go through 'withdrawal'. Don't concern yourself with that now; just know it's coming.


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## SteelerGuy

azteca1986 - That is what I've been really concerned about. I guess the main thing is I have to be strong enough to support her when she goes through that process. I need patience.


----------



## SteelerGuy

Something else just hit me as I was going through the process of NMMNG. In the part about people doing things for themselves, I have twice done really good things for myself that I had been trying to accomplish for a long time. Losing weight and chewing on my fingers. As long as no one noticed, I was fine. As soon as my wife mentioned it and told me how proud she was of me, I fell off the deep end. It's because I felt like I wasn't worth having good things for me.


----------



## crossbar

Dude your wife is lying her ass off.

"He's just a friend! He's helping through all of this stuff!"

Yet, she tells you that if there's a chance of them meeting up, that she'll be up front about it with you. and not do it behind your back. Well, why the hell would she need to do that? He's just a FRIEND right? Yeah.....right....bullsh*t.


----------



## walkonmars

Tell her you've been thinking about the question she asked a few nights ago about the OM. (if you hated him). Tell her you've been wondering how she'd feel if one of your old HS/college girlfriends was serving as a marriage counselor for you on fb - how many years would she be tolerant of that? 

Is this OM married? You need to do a bunch of research on this guy. Don't believe a word of what your wife says about him or what he's told her. For all you know he could be a pervert getting his rocks off for the last 12 years acting the 'counselor' with his pants around his ankles.


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## CASE_Sensitive

O/M is also playing headgames with your wife. I don't know anyone who will committ to taking on someone else's 4 young children.


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## funfred

Steeler, you really need to listen to what everyone is saying here. I was the first one to tell you this. These guys here know a whole lot more than I do. Trust me. You have taken a first step in the right direction, but you need to plant yourself firmly and take decisive action immediately. Ask your wife how she would feel if you were communicating with an "old female friend"? I promise you she would not like it. I do not want to come across as overbearing/demanding, but if you truely want to save your marriage, you must expose this affair for what it is. Next you tell her if the communication does not stop with OM, then you will file for Divorce and you will cut her out of your life.


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## walkonmars

She wants to see real change in you?

Tell her the very first change you're going to make is to insist that she stop relying on her online boyfriend for advice. If she wants advice she should go with you to a MC. You've put up with it for years it's time for a change.

And say "boyfriend" call it like it is.


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## ThreeStrikes

SteelerGuy said:


> *but she is strongly considering leaving me for a guy that she has never met but she has talked to online and texted off and on for the last 12 years.*


SG, he's not "just a friend". Wives don't threaten to leave their husbands to go be with a friend.

Can you look at the history of their conversations via text or email? Has there been sex talk? I love you's? 

How deep is she into this guy?


----------



## Acabado

She loves save face, mantain the public facade; she refuses to talk to any MC (the issues are exclusively yours), to talk to the priest or church counselors (what if they tell her she's nuts and wrong?), she warn you about behaving in a way anyone out there could imagine marriage problems... yet she's perfectly fine sharing all the marriage issues, trashing it, badmouthing you, violating your intimacy for ages with this so "noble" fake church man, who acts as marriage couselor, tells her she's in an awful marriage but has never experienced anything resembling a meaningful relationship the last ten years, has no idea about balancing a job, a dispointed wife, kids, mortage, ILs... It suits her so well to be the perpetual victim nobody knows about...

What a joke.

Man, don't be afraid to demand respect. Pu your feet down. Be very firm and honest regarding OM. She won't ever leave you for him, she's lying to herself or better, chosing immediate self gratification knowing well there's no future with a man with no real experience in real relationships nor real intimacy. It's scapism, it's a online imposible fantasy you can't compete with despite whatever she might tell you or herself. She knows, OM is the phone stressor reliever, OM/phone is her drug of choice. Nothing more.
She loves to have you on the edge, jumping like a trained puppy so she can excuse herself to seek him everytime you "fail" or she decides to move the target. Her expectations seems rather unrealistics with is understandable as her standards are written in her - perpetual victim - head and feeded by an amateur outsider with a disproportionate sense of self importance.

Next time she dares to mention OM as potential partner tell her to sit down with you and draft the major lines of a legal separation or divorce (talk to a lawyer and make him write some lines so she knows you toke seriously her treats) (*), she's free to leave, to persue her happiness with OM. Be as serious as a heart attack. Tell her you won't share her for a minute more. No way. Enough is enough. Is she unhappy?, go and file. Is she in luuurv with this facebook ghost? Fine, go to him, get an apartment states away (and leave the kids here). You won't tolerate more disrespect from her. Period.

(*) You should talk to a lawyer anyway, she's telling you she's considering divorce and legitimize this relatioship (which implies moving your children states away). Learn your rights.


----------



## badmemory

Steeler,

I have to be careful here because sometimes there's a fine line between giving the BS a needed 2x4 to the head versus demeaning them.

But you have to be the most beta-sized male BS I've seen on TAM in a long time. Realize this:

Until you get her commitment to *stop contact*, until you get her agreement to send him a *no contact letter*, until she *agrees to be transparent going forward*, until you *expose both of them*; until you understand that you have to be willing to lose your marriage to have a chance of saving it; everything else is *meaningless*.

All the marriage advice books, all the playing nice. Forget it. *YOU HAVE TO INSIST THAT SHE GOES NO CONTACT NOW; AND IF SHE DOESN'T, START THE DIVORCE PROCESS.*

If you ever get to the point where you can accept this approach, please post again. You are making every mistake in the book.


----------



## 3putt

ThreeStrikes said:


> SG, he's not "just a friend". Wives don't threaten to leave their husbands to go be with a friend.
> 
> Can you look at the history of their conversations via text or email? Has there been sex talk? I love you's?
> 
> *How deep is she into this guy?*


Deep enough to keep saying he's not the reason this is happening. How many times have we heard this crap? Very telling sign right there.

Steeler, you need to get a hold of this punk and put the fear of God, Allah, Buddha (or whoever the hell he worships) into him. OM's are notorious wimps, and if you start to stir up a stink, you just may send him packing. Don't worry about making her mad. How mad she gets is an indicator of just how much damage you have done. You want mad.

I would also call your MIL and see what she really did say. Anything that comes from your wife should automatically be assumed a rewrite of what was actually said. Don't forget, waywards lie!


----------



## BobSimmons

Just read your thread. First off, good on you for being a religious guy, but time to ditch that in favor of some proven and hard work.

Yes, you've been in the wrong for most of the time, but your wife doesn't get away with it scott free. For all of your marriage she has held you up against this guy. 

While you farted, she'd write him and he was finishing up his work out somewhere, sweat dripping, pecs pumped (ok that's just her imagination but what it is, is an ideal)

He is the standard for lost romance, the fantasy she can run away to..every time you come out the bathroom, every time you did wrong, yes she tolerated it but bit by bit her fantasy guy was talking more and more room in her heart/life.

Right now, you can sow the clouds with gold, pray to god and wash the dishes and cook for her everyday..and yes it does come off as insincere and desperate but it will never compare to the guy on the other side who's now become her knight in shining armor...anything not to put in the work to try and save the marriage. He's going to save her, and even worse, she has given her heart to him.

But what's even more insincere is her holding this over your head. If she had the courage of her convictions she would have gone to him. What she's doing is sticking in the knife and twisting it,an emotional manipulation of the worst kind.
So now she's got two men fighting in pining over her, this will and can go on indefinitely because as I said if she had the courage of her convictions and she really felt the way she did, she would have been gone.

So sort yourself out. Sit her down. You have one talk. Set it all on the table. Do you want this marriage? No ifs and buts. You will not live in this purgatory. If she wants it, then she never contacts him again, that is not negotiable. If she doesn't want to work on it, then you let her go. Once a woman has detached, you've got a cat in hells chance of nicing her back, let her go to him, let her see her fantasy guy, then file. But please

STOP BEGGING
STOP PLEADING
STOP PLAYING NICE

Save your family by fighting for it, that means bettering yourself and being a better man.


----------



## walkonmars

Acabado said:


> She loves save face, mantain the public facade; she refuses to talk to any MC (the issues are exclusively yours), to talk to the priest or church counselors (what if they tell her she's nuts and wrong?), she warn you about behaving in a way anyone out there could imagine marriage problems... yet she's perfectly fine sharing all the marriage issues, trashing it, badmouthing you, violating your intimacy for ages with this so "noble" fake church man, who acts as marriage couselor, tells her she's in an awful marriage but has never experienced anything resembling a meaningful relationship the last ten years, has no idea about balancing a job, a dispointed wife, kids, mortage, ILs... It suits her so well to be the perpetual victim nobody knows about...
> 
> What a joke.
> 
> Man, don't be afraid to demand respect. Pu your feet down. Be very firm and honest regarding OM. She won't ever leave you for him, she's lying to herself or better, chosing immediate self gratification knowing well there's no future with a man with no real experience in real relationships nor real intimacy. It's scapism, it's a online imposible fantasy you can't compete with despite whatever she might tell you or herself. She knows, OM is the phone stressor reliever, OM/phone is her drug of choice. Nothing more.
> She loves to have you on the edge, jumping like a trained puppy so she can excuse herself to seek him everytime you "fail" or she decides to move the target. Her expectations seems rather unrealistics with is understandable as her standards are written in her - perpetual victim - head and feeded by an amateur outsider with a disproportionate sense of self importance.
> 
> Next time she dares to mention OM as potential partner tell her to sit down with you and draft the major lines of a legal separation or divorce (talk to a lawyer and make him write some lines so she knows you toke seriously her treats) (*), she's free to leave, to persue her happiness with OM. Be as serious as a heart attack. Tell her you won't share her for a minute more. No way. Enough is enough. Is she unhappy?, go and file. Is she in luuurv with this facebook ghost? Fine, go to him, get an apartment states away (and leave the kids here). You won't tolerate more disrespect from her. Period.
> 
> (*) You should talk to a lawyer anyway, she's telling you she's considering divorce and legitimize this relatioship (which implies moving your children states away). Learn your rights.


:iagree:

Well said Acabado! (glad to see you posting again)

Steeler: You can't buy advice like this. It's spot on. Read Acabado's post again. Implement it completely. But keep working on your own issues. 

Your marriage can be the strong marriage you want. Reading is great, working on yourself is great. But you have to have a level playing field to have a chance at success. This dude's gotta go.


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## SteelerGuy

I'm getting a lot of conflicting advice. I hear what you guys are saying, and I need to sift through a lot of it. I admit that I have been very beta most of my life. I sometimes would become extremely Alpha through things like sports (wrestling, football) but off the field, not so much. I also realize that I have a lot of work to do for myself to get me to be more Alpha.

Someone previously posted above that I should get through NMMNG first, and then demand that she stop talking to the OM. Partially because she would be going through withdrawal without him and I need to be strong enough to support her, which has been an issue in the past.

And believe me, I know that my wife has wanted to put a 2x4 to my head in the past for the same reason. I am in a bad place right now and I need to get a grip on who I want to be and get there. In fact, I've always known who I want to be. I just never knew how to get there before NMMNG. So far it is life changing. But it's a process.

And another thing that she said is that she will never move to where he lives. I know that is true since her whole family is here and she's lived here her whole life. I've wondered about that dynamic as well and didn't think it was likely that he would move all the way out here just for a chance that it would work.

I also have had the same thoughts about the OM. He is 36, single, never been married, etc. I don't know much else about him except that he doesn't have many real friends and is pretty needy at times. He has just been saying the right things to her. I know, easy to do when you don't have all of the real life responsibilities of a family.

As far as looking at there communications, she has shown me texts and emails that he has sent before. But not since a week and a half ago. I went into her phone the other morning while she was sleeping (Tuesday?) and I saw some of there messages. She was complaining about me and how she could sleep because I was trying to talk to her and it wasn't working. Truthfully, it was a bad night. I was trying to do the Love Dare and it just wasn't working. I was coming off desperate and needy, the opposite of what I need to be. They didn't say anything inappropriate. The worst that I saw was she said that she thought of something that he said the night before and it stopped her in her tracks in the kitchen twice. And they made a comment somewhere in there about not being able to wait to hug each other. I don't remember most of it since I was rushing and afraid she would wake up. I don't really have access to her phone most of the time and I can't remember her email password since it was changed a while ago.

But also, don't be afraid of being mean. Part of this process is that i need to hear stuff that will make me uncomfortable and be able to deal with it. I always put up a front that I'm ok, but inside I'm hurting and it builds up until I explode.


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## badmemory

SteelerGuy said:


> I'm getting a lot of conflicting advice.


I don't think so. You are just getting different perspectives of the same advice. Some are more benevolent, some less. 

You can't go forward with working on your marriage while she is in contact with the OM. If you can get to the point where contact ends, only then, do you have a foundation to start with. It's just as simple as that. 

I don't think anyone here would tell you differently.


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## azteca1986

SteelerGuy, the advice is not conflicting. We are all in agreement on your next move. The only variance is on how ready you are to make that next move.

Quite frankly a guy who wrestles and plays football is plenty Alpha enough. You need to be strong, firm and decisive and make your entirely reasonable demand:

*No boyfriends in the marriage.*


----------



## movin on

Your blaming yourself for the things you did in the past for pushing her away. 

Sounds like she never invested herself 100% into the marriage. The " friend" has gotta go. No ifs ands or buts about it.
Put a stop to it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## wilderness

Make it tough for her to continue her affair. Expose. Do it nuclear style. Make a list of everyone you know, everyone she knows, and everyone OM knows. Exclude no one. Include neighbors church work family extended family friends friends of friends, bosses facebook friends and anyone else you can think of. I would also tell your kids in an age appropriate way.


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## Acabado

Refer to him always as your boyfriend.


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## walkonmars

Acabado said:


> Refer to him always as your boyfriend.


Absolutely always say "your boyfriend..." 
When/if she disagrees then tell her only bf/gf keep secrets. Challenge her to leave his messages on the phone without deleting them and available for your review. (she won't do it because they can't wait to 'hug') 

This is the worst kind of boyfriend to dump, she doesn't have to smell his bad breath, BO, farts, burps, rotten teeth, stutter, knuckle cracks, eye tics, streaked skivies etc.

Whereas you, who's busting ass to try to 'win her back' just can't compete. 

LEVEL THE PLAYING FIELD!!!


----------



## anchorwatch

Steeler, the advice is the same. Some may be impatient as it can be frustrating watching you struggle, but we're not where you are. You know what needs to be done. Don't get confused or lose sight of what needs to be accomplished. You just put one foot in front of the other and continue up this hill.


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## azteca1986

SteelerGuy said:


> And they made a comment somewhere in there about not being able to wait to *hug each other*.


This is cheater code. Two grown adults are not going to stop at hugging each other. 



> But also, don't be afraid of being mean.


Okay. Your wife is preparing the ground to go and fvck him.



> Part of this process is that i need to hear stuff that will make me uncomfortable and be able to deal with it. I always put up a front that I'm ok, but inside I'm hurting and it builds up *until I explode*.


If this happens, try and be in close proximity to her boyfriend.


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## SteelerGuy

Should I talk to her again about the OM before being ready to put my foot down?


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## ThreeStrikes

SteelerGuy said:


> I don't really have access to her phone most of the time and I can't remember her email password since it was changed a while ago.


In a healthy marriage, these things are not hidden.

Secret passcodes and locked phones are trademarks of an affair.


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## ThreeStrikes

SteelerGuy said:


> Should I talk to her again about the OM before being ready to put my foot down?


If you were at a party with wifey, and some dude was hitting on her, what would you do?


----------



## 3putt

SteelerGuy said:


> Should I talk to her again about the OM before being ready to put my foot down?


You've talked enough without results. Time to take some action, friend.


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## SteelerGuy

her phone isn't locked. She just always has it with her. The email password is my fault because I changed it when her account got locked out and I forgot what I changed it to. That was probably a year ago.


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## azteca1986

SteelerGuy said:


> Should I talk to her again about the OM before being ready to put my foot down?


What were you planning on saying?


----------



## SteelerGuy

I don't know. I'm still trying to figure this all out. I'm not sure how I want to approach it yet. I still have so much work to do on me and that is where most of my energy is going right now.


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## walkonmars

SteelerGuy said:


> I don't know. I'm still trying to figure this all out. I'm not sure how I want to approach it yet. I still have so much work to do on me and that is where most of my energy is going right now.



It's great that you are working on YOU . That's very important. 
But as long as he has her ear and she tells him what changes she sees in you, he's going to find ways to give you backhanded complements and suggest to her that you're being dishonest. 

LEVEL THE PLAYING FILED!!
(in fact - he shouldn't even be on the same field)


----------



## badmemory

SteelerGuy said:


> Should I talk to her again about the OM before being ready to put my foot down?


No steelerguy, you shouldn't.This isn't negotiable. Gather your resolve and give her the ultimatum.


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## SteelerGuy

One of the other things about me that I haven't come out and said (although I'm sure many of you are assuming this) is that I hate confrontation. I absolutely hate it. Or should I say I hate personal confrontation. That's one of the things I am struggling with. I have done much better the last couple of days. But I need to make sure that I stay strong. The last thing that I want to do is put myself in the situation where I put my foot down and then fold like yesterday's laundry.


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## funfred

Main thing is be strong and resolute in your decisions. Whatever you say, back it up. Dont give her an inch.


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## SteelerGuy

I know. I feel more confident right now then I've been in a long time. I just don't know if I'm there yet.


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## azteca1986

Don't say anything if you don't know what you're going to say. Don't do anything if you don't know what to do.

Working on you is great, but time is not on your side. You posted earlier that you didn't think that two people who hadn't met could fall in love. You're wrong. It happens all the time. 

When you wife stopped showing you their communication is when things started escalating between them. They are preparing to meet sometime in the very near future. They can't wait. Neither can you.

When will you be ready?


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## walkonmars

Steeler

It's very obvious by your description of your marriage that you are VERY non-confrontational. It showed from your very first post (where you scurried like a 12 y/o downstairs to jackhoff to porn). 

You may be better served by seeing a counselor for your issues(not the church type). Have you considered that you are using the church as a crutch (ouch - forget I said that outloud).

You mentioned that your wife has accused you of acting out of desperation rather than out of a change of attitude. Well, padnah, your desperation shows too. 

You need to gather your wits and courage. Your family NEEDS a leader. BE that leader. Stiffen your spine and act as if you had courage (and courage will come to you)


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## SteelerGuy

I think the biggest obstacle that I'm dealing with for the confrontation is that she legitimately doesn't think that she is cheating. I told her before I start NMMNG that I wanted her to stop talking to him so we could have a chance, and she said no. I know I need to stop it.


----------



## SteelerGuy

No, I don't think I am using the church as a crutch. Without Church, without God I probably would have already given up. God brought me out of a really dark place. I was in really bad shape last week. I was trying really hard but I was almost always on the verge of tears after my wife told me that she was considering leaving. I have a lot of thinking to do before tonight. Please pray for strength and courage for me.


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## SteelerGuy

I found an article about EA online. I understand more completely what you guys are saying.


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## azteca1986

SteelerGuy said:


> I think the biggest obstacle that I'm dealing with for the confrontation is that she legitimately doesn't think that she is cheating. I told her before I start NMMNG that I wanted her to stop talking to him so we could have a chance, and she said no. I know I need to stop it.


Your biggest obstacle is YOU. You need to stop taking "No" as an answer. She has a boyfriend. It's undeniable. How on earth can she believe she's not cheating. Ultimately what she thinks she's doing is irrelevant. What you think and what you're going to do is all that matters.

Now, I'm not the sort to pray. I have faith in human beings. I have faith that a good father and husband will find the strength from wherever he wants to find it to do what needs to be done.


----------



## badmemory

SteelerGuy said:


> I think the biggest obstacle that I'm dealing with for the confrontation is that she legitimately doesn't think that she is cheating.


That's not the biggest obstacle. It doesn't matter that she thinks it's not cheating. It matters that you know it's cheating. 

The biggest obstacle, is your fear of losing her.


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## SteelerGuy

You're right. The issue is me. Because I'm a nice guy and hate confrontation, it leaves me scared of putting my foot down and being left with nothing. Nothing is worse than being someone like me and literally being left with nothing and nobody. And I really don't have anybody around to support me. My family are all 6 hours a way or further. I need to find my inner strength.


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## 3putt

SteelerGuy said:


> I found an article about EA online. I understand more completely what you guys are saying.


Here's another you might find eye opening as well. Just linked this for the first time yesterday, and now again.

What is an Affair?


----------



## ThreeStrikes

SteelerGuy said:


> You're right. The issue is me. Because I'm a nice guy and hate confrontation, it leaves me scared of putting my foot down and being left with nothing. Nothing is worse than being someone like me and literally being left with nothing and nobody. And I really don't have anybody around to support me. My family are all 6 hours a way or further. I need to find my inner strength.


You had a self-identity before you met her, right? Find that guy. Remember who you were. You were an individual.

Somewhere along the way you found this pedestal and put your wife on it. She doesn't like being there. Women do not like the pressure of being on a pedestal.


----------



## alte Dame

The irony is, Steeler, that if you find your inner strength, you will bring things to you that will guarantee that you won't be alone. If you stay fearful, you up your chances of a lonely life.

Your W has a boyfriend. She has brought some loser into your marriage and set him up as competition to her husband. There are three people in your marriage. You need to find the strength to call BS on that. You have the lives of four children at stake.

Your W has you completely brainwashed into believing that your marital problems are all your fault, but she has a BOYFRIEND. This is a major marital problem that you didn't generate.

I completely agree with all the others. He has to go. Only if he is out of the picture do you have a chance. Please reread Acabado's great post a few pages back. Spot on.


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## SteelerGuy

I know she doesn't. She's told me so many times that I need to find a way to lead this family.


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## anchorwatch

We're here for you.

Don't give her an ultimatum until you have your ducks in a row and are prepared to back them up with consequences. Be prepared two moves ahead when you do it. This will keep you on task.


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## alte Dame

Here. I've reprinted it for you:



Acabado said:


> She loves save face, mantain the public facade; she refuses to talk to any MC (the issues are exclusively yours), to talk to the priest or church counselors (what if they tell her she's nuts and wrong?), she warn you about behaving in a way anyone out there could imagine marriage problems... yet she's perfectly fine sharing all the marriage issues, trashing it, badmouthing you, violating your intimacy for ages with this so "noble" fake church man, who acts as marriage couselor, tells her she's in an awful marriage but has never experienced anything resembling a meaningful relationship the last ten years, has no idea about balancing a job, a dispointed wife, kids, mortage, ILs... It suits her so well to be the perpetual victim nobody knows about...
> 
> What a joke.
> 
> Man, don't be afraid to demand respect. Pu your feet down. Be very firm and honest regarding OM. She won't ever leave you for him, she's lying to herself or better, chosing immediate self gratification knowing well there's no future with a man with no real experience in real relationships nor real intimacy. It's scapism, it's a online imposible fantasy you can't compete with despite whatever she might tell you or herself. She knows, OM is the phone stressor reliever, OM/phone is her drug of choice. Nothing more.
> She loves to have you on the edge, jumping like a trained puppy so she can excuse herself to seek him everytime you "fail" or she decides to move the target. Her expectations seems rather unrealistics with is understandable as her standards are written in her - perpetual victim - head and feeded by an amateur outsider with a disproportionate sense of self importance.
> 
> Next time she dares to mention OM as potential partner tell her to sit down with you and draft the major lines of a legal separation or divorce (talk to a lawyer and make him write some lines so she knows you toke seriously her treats) (*), she's free to leave, to persue her happiness with OM. Be as serious as a heart attack. Tell her you won't share her for a minute more. No way. Enough is enough. Is she unhappy?, go and file. Is she in luuurv with this facebook ghost? Fine, go to him, get an apartment states away (and leave the kids here). You won't tolerate more disrespect from her. Period.
> 
> (*) You should talk to a lawyer anyway, she's telling you she's considering divorce and legitimize this relatioship (which implies moving your children states away). Learn your rights.


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## badmemory

SteelerGuy said:


> You're right. The issue is me. Because I'm a nice guy and hate confrontation, it leaves me scared of putting my foot down and being left with nothing. Nothing is worse than being someone like me and literally being left with nothing and nobody. And I really don't have anybody around to support me. My family are all 6 hours a way or further. I need to find my inner strength.


Yes, it's possible that you may lose her when you give her the ultimatum. I understand that fear because I've experienced it. But you have to believe that being strong like this gives you the best chance to save your marriage. You may find that her respect and attraction for you increases because of it; but at the end of the day, you have to respect yourself.

I'm not a religious man, but if you need to pray to find that inner strength to overcome the fear of losing her; do what you need to do. I've always heard the phrase - God helps those who help themselves.

Time to help yourself.


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## azteca1986

SteelerGuy said:


> You're right. The issue is me. Because I'm a nice guy and hate confrontation, it leaves me scared of putting my foot down and being left with nothing.


It's counter-inuitive but putting your foot down is your best shot of getting your wife out of her affair.



> Nothing is worse than being someone like me and literally being left with nothing and nobody.


No. Nothing is worse that doing nothing and watching your wife slip away. 



> And I really don't have anybody around to support me. My family are all 6 hours a way or further. *I need to find my inner strength.*


That's more like it, fella.


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## SteelerGuy

This is my update so far tonight. I broke down emotionally on the way home, but it was more of a God thing then my feelings. I was strong by the time I got home and I used 180. A few minutes in after I said hi to her in the kids, I wasn't really talk to her too much. If she asked me a question, I answered it, but I didn't extend the conversation. She asked me if part of the program was being mean, and I calmly told her that I wasn't being mean and I didn't intend to come off that way. I spent the rest of the time until dinner playing with the kids and answer her occasional question.

During dinner, she tried talking to me a little bit, and mentioned a conversation with her mom that she had on the phone on her way home from picking up the kids from school. She mentioned that she couldn't get off the phone with her and stopped, expected me to take the bite and ask about it. But I didn't. She looked really hurt after that and didn't eat anymore of her dinner.

I broke down after dinner while she was upstairs nursing the baby and I was cleaning up from dinner. It honestly hurt me to see her in pain like that, but I know that I'm doing the right thing. I got it together and we went towards bath-time. During bath-time, she again asked me the occasional question, but I didn't extend anything and kept helping with the kids. She looked really hurt and didn't say anything else.

She came down once on the phone with her mom to get something and glanced at me, but she didn't say anything and went back upstairs.

My question is, where do I go from here. I know that she made an effort today, albeit a small one. She communicated with me in the morning asking the questions about the program and sent me the nice unprompted text message. My wife is extremely sensitive and her feelings are very easily hurt. I believe that she was expecting more out of me since she put in an effort today, and I don't necessarily want to close that off. Should I go for the discussion about the OM?


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## walkonmars

IF SHE ASKS what's wrong or is she asks if something is troubling you then you should tell her you've been giving a lot of thought to the state of your marriage. 

Tell her you are going to continue to work on yourself FOR yourself because you want to be a better man. However, you are to the point of reconsidering your marriage inasmuch as there seem to be three people in your marriage and have been for a long time. 

Tell her as long as she communicates with the OM or any other man you will be less available to her. You'll be there for the kids. 

Tell her you are still pondering her wish to leave you and if she still feels that way you can make it happen, with regret, but in a heartbeat. 

You have to mean this and be willing to stand by it.

She can't have a boyfriend (online or live) and be your wife. Not at all.


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## SteelerGuy

Should I wait for her to bring it up? I know the main part of the 180 is to show her that you can stand on your own and make her come to you. Should I wait for that moment?


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## walkonmars

You should be dispassionate, cool, confident. You know what you have to do. Work on being a better man and continuing to be a good father. 

Don't let her draw you into any other conversations. Just say "I'm not willing to discuss that right now."

However if she does ask what you're willing to discuss or 'what's wrong' then you have your opening. 

"I won't accept you having a boyfriend while you're married to me" and take it from there. Stick to the issue. Anything else, "I'm not willing to discuss that"

Stay calm. Be confident. Have courage. Lead your family.


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## SteelerGuy

So I should keep all casual conversations brief, and if she mentions future stuff at all, then I should tell her I don't want to talk about it. Do I have that straight?


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## walkonmars

Yes, don't be aggressive, maudlin, sullen, or broody, just say "you're not willing to discuss that now" or "I'm not ready to talk about that right now, I have other things on my mind".

Remember - calm is the key. Don't break down at any time. Bite your cheek if you have to or just excuse yourself for a little while. 

Don't offer any comfort or reassure her of anything. "We'll see" is your response to anything else.


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## walkonmars

Know what it is you want:

1. an end to her online relationship
2. access to her phone at any time
3. professional counseling for both - complete and honest (I'd avoid the church type counselors if possible)
4. respect for your contributions and acknowledgement of your efforts (and you'll do the same)

these are the bare minimum.


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## SteelerGuy

Ok. I have another question. This weekend we have some things coming up. On Saturday, we are hosting her sisters Baby Shower (I know, akward with the situation) and pretty much every woman in her family is going to be there. I will be watching the kids upstairs during that. Then after that, we are supposed to head over to her parents house to celebrate her step-fathers birthday for dinner.

On Sunday, we have church in the morning, a football game family get together that we do every Sunday, and Trick or Treat on Sunday night since it got rained out tonight. She I still plan to go to all of these things? I know if I don't that there isn't any way that all of the kids can go. 4 kids that are 6 and under are too much for one person. What are your thoughts?


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## Acabado

SteelerGuy said:


> She asked me if part of the program was being mean, and I calmly told her that I wasn't being mean and I didn't intend to come off that way. I spent the rest of the time until dinner playing with the kids and answer her occasional question.


Wrong.
Calmy, tell her you are at the end of the rope and taking a little time to think your path as your wife has a boyfriend she claims she's ready to leave for.
Tomorrow morning talk to a lawyer, seriously. I just remember she told you somthing about the CC. Time to take charge of finances, possible repersusions... get an acurate picture of the more probable scenarios.

Man, it's hard but very simple, what do you prefer, to lose your wife or to share her? If the latest suggest an open marriage, give her a couple of "safe sex" tips and back to the program to become a great dad and plan your future without her (because it would be a matter of time). If you refuse to share her tell her so. Be prepared, papers in hard, numbers done, to follow through. She's not that sensitive, she has a boyfriend man!!! She's flaunting this man all over your face. For.Years.
Chose respect, tell her you won't tolerate this disrespect anymore. Don't you realize she's basicaly begging you to be strong, strong enough to out your foot down already?
If she calls you bluff call her parents and thank them for being good ILs to you and assure them they will be your kids grandpas forever, they don't have to worry about the impending divorce. Then text OM and tell him she's all his, his problem from now on, that he succeeded at wrecking your family.

Man, tell her you are been thinking and you have enough of this sh1t and you have a few non negotiable demands to stay married to her:
She goes NC, she sends a pre-aproved NC letter to OM, choosing you and breaking with him forever.
She becomes an open book regarding comunication devices.
She comes clean about her "relationship" with OM, complete honesty about it.
She commit to go with you to get proffesional help; mandatory marriage counseling.
... for now.
......... or divorce. Then drop at her lap your proposal.

Of course you must be ready to follow through.


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## walkonmars

Yes you still have your duties as a father. 

Don't pretend to be a 'happy couple' if you're not. Don't be rude to her or anyone. Let everyone see you being confident and sure of yourself. If anyone asks how it's going (and means it) then just say "I'm working on myself" or "I'll be fine" 

Are any of these people folks you can count on or just random casual acquaintances?


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## SteelerGuy

walkonmars - yes, that is exactly right. I have an idea of what i'm going to say when we talk about it. I'm going start by telling her that the relationship is hurting our marriage and getting between us. I'm going to tell her that it is EA. If she responds that it isn't, I'm going to ask her if she minds if I look at her phone so I read through the text messages. If she says no, which I'm sure that she will, then I will explain again that it is an EA. I will tell her that she can't have a relationship with secrets with another guy that isn't EA. Our marriage can't have secrets at all. I will tell her that it has to stop for us to continue working on our marriage.

That's all I have so far. I just remembered one other thing. This weekend we were talking about everything and she mentioned something about me learning over time to give better orgasms, but that I couldn't learn how to be everything else that she needed. She then started to say something about him, but then she stopped herself and said it would hurt me too much and she didn't bring it up again. That one really hurt. Like a dagger through the heart.


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## tainted

SteelerGuy said:


> Because I'm a nice guy and hate confrontation, it leaves me scared of putting my foot down and being left with nothing. Nothing is worse than being someone like me and literally being left with nothing and nobody.


You would have your pride and self respect. 

Why is she okay with telling OM your marriage problems but not a counselor. :scratchhead:
How does she feel about you going to IC?


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## azteca1986

SteelerGuy said:


> This is my update so far tonight.
> 
> I broke down after dinner while she was upstairs nursing the baby and I was cleaning up from dinner. It honestly hurt me to see her in pain like that, but I know that I'm doing the right thing. I got it together and we went towards bath-time. During bath-time, she again asked me the occasional question, but I didn't extend anything and kept helping with the kids. She looked really hurt and didn't say anything else.


I'm so, so, SO, glad you're still posting. I thought we'd lost you, fella. You did GREAT tonight. Well done. This is the 180. Giving her a taste of life without her husband. She didn't like it. Too bad. I know it's not easy for you. You broke down (understandably). But you didn't let her see it. Again, well done.



> My question is, where do I go from here. I know that she made an effort today, albeit a small one. She communicated with me in the morning asking the questions about the program and sent me the nice unprompted text message. My wife is extremely sensitive and her feelings are very easily hurt. I believe that she was expecting more out of me since she put in an effort today, and I don't necessarily want to close that off.


Don't you see? When you start pulling AWAY, she comes back to you. This is a really good sign. I have hope (but I'm a relentless optimist). You are pitifully (excuse me for being so blunt) grateful for the merest bit of attention from your WW (Wandering Wife). SHE has a long way to go. As have you.



> Should I go for the discussion about the OM?


Don't say a fvcking word till you're ready for the *"No Boyfriends in our marriage." *speech.

You did really well today, mate. Keep it up.


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## LongWalk

walkonmars said:


> Yes you still have your duties as a father.
> 
> Don't pretend to be a 'happy couple' if you're not. Don't be rude to her or anyone. Let everyone see you being confident and sure of yourself. If anyone asks how it's going (and means it) then just say "I'm working on myself" or "I'll be fine"
> 
> Are any of these people folks you can count on or just random casual acquaintances?


Your relationship with others will be appropriate. You aren't mad at her family, nor are you trying to wreck things for the kids.

The cooperative everything-is-normal husband is not who you are. Things are not normal. You need to 180. Talk only about the kids. Be polite to your wife but don't engage in conversation. Act strong. You are going forward in life. You are going to be happy. You are not a beta wimp. Fake confidence until you have it. Do not look to your wife for approval and affirmation. That must come from within you, for she is testing your resolve.

Don't talk about your relationship with her. As long as she has a boyfriend, your relationship is over. You will be co-parents. If she is feeling happy or sad, let her call him. You are not her so-called emotional tampon.

Do not say "I love you" to her or "can't we try", blah, blah. You are detaching from her to survive. If your departure changes her mind, you know the conditions for saving your marriage. No contact with POSOM.


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## ThreeStrikes

Yes. You're going to have to suck it up this weekend. Be the good father that you are. Don't lose your cool.

It does make you wonder, though.... what are her plans when she leaves you? Was she going to take all the kids and let OM help her with the parenting? Was she going to abandon the kids and let you raise them?

I think your wife is very immature. I really doubt she plans on ever following through with her threats. It's all fantasy island for her.

But she does enjoy the cake-eating aspect of her EA. She gets the love and adoration from OM, whilst you cover the mundane day-to-day "real life" things, like raising kids, providing financially, etc. And she gets to hold the threat of leaving you over your head, because dreamy OM is so much better <eyeroll>.

Your wife just needs a hard dose of reality. Exposing her affair should take care of that. You could do it tomorrow, but that would put the kibosh on your kids' weekend plans. Or you can wait until Monday. In the long run it probably doesn't matter.


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## SteelerGuy

No, you didn't lose me. But with 4 kids at home, I'm pretty much gone from 5-8. I won't stop fighting. I truly feel stronger now then I ever have. It is also encouraging that my emotions are there, because I have learned to hold my emotions in for a long time. When I was young, I used to be a very emotional expressive kid. But somewhere in there, I learned that it was better and safer to be closed up so I couldn't get hurt. Little did I know that I was hurting myself.

And don't be sorry to say it. It is pitiful. If I was a stronger man, I would have sent the OM packing years ago. But I wrote it off as not being a big deal and didn't want to confront it. I'm learning how to stand up for what I want and need.

tainted - she's told me many times that I can go to counseling if I want to but that she didn't need it. I've wanted to go to counseling with her so badly before, but she refused. A big part is what I have mentioned before in that she doesn't want anyone to know we have problems. That is what has taken such a huge toll on her over the years is constantly faking it. I also think that she doesn't want to dig into her past. She has some pretty scarring stuff from her dad in there. To this day, she is so mortified of snakes that she blacks out if she sees one, or at least lets out a blood-curdling scream and turns her head. This is because her first step-mom punished her when she was 5 by putting a boa constrictor in her bed for talking about her mom at there house. Some pretty messed up stuff, and I know there is a lot that I don't even know about or that she has repressed.


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## Acabado

SteelerGuy said:


> walkonmars - yes, that is exactly right. I have an idea of what i'm going to say when we talk about it. I'm going start by telling her that the relationship is hurting our marriage and getting between us. I'm going to tell her that it is EA. *If she responds that it isn't, I'm going to ask* her if she minds if I look at her phone so I read through the text messages. *If she says no*, which I'm sure that she will, then I will explain again that it is an EA. *I will tell her that she can't *have a relationship with secrets with another guy that isn't EA. Our marriage can't have secrets at all. *I will tell her* that it has to stop for us to continue working on our marriage.
> 
> That's all I have so far. I just remembered one other thing. This weekend we were talking about everything and she mentioned something about me learning over time to give better orgasms, but that I couldn't learn how to be everything else that she needed. She then started to say something about him, but then she stopped herself and said it would hurt me too much and she didn't bring it up again. That one really hurt. Like a dagger through the heart.


I will tell...

Friend. You have to be way more firm: it's him or us. Period. 
Don't explain wht an EA definition is or is not. Doin't engage in that stupid discussion. What she's doing is wrong, immoral and cruel. You don't want to hear his name a single time more, specialy when talking about orgasms. No married woman feels the need to bring another man's name in such a conversation, regarding orgams or any other marital issues, it's intolarable she talks to him about you and your marriage and you had enough.

Make it simple, or OM is gone forever or you are gone forever. No bargaining, mno time to think, doin't engage if she says no. Just implement a black 180 and proceed with the divorce plan.

Get your balls back from her purse. Your wife won't keep talking to a former boyfriend to get marital advice anymore... if she wants to stay married to you. Interiorize it, and then show her.


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## azteca1986

SteelerGuy said:


> walkonmars - yes, that is exactly right. I have an idea of what i'm going to say when we talk about it. I'm going start by telling her that the relationship is hurting our marriage and getting between us. I'm going to tell her that it is EA. If she responds that it isn't, I'm going to ask her if she minds if I look at her phone so I read through the text messages. If she says no, which I'm sure that she will, then I will explain again that it is an EA. I will tell her that she can't have a relationship with secrets with another guy that isn't EA. Our marriage can't have secrets at all. I will tell her that it has to stop for us to continue working on our marriage.


SteelerGuy, this is not how you have a confrontation. You cannot plan out a conversation with another human being. You can't predict what she will say and when. Just don't do it. In order to succeed you need to stick to FACTS and STATEMENTS of your position. And stick to them 

_Suggested phrases:
_You ARE having an affair. An Emotional affair.
He is your boyfriend.
I will not accept a third person in our marriage.
I don't like where this conversation is heading.
I'm sorry you feel that way.

Just keep repeating these and the one's that walkonmars has mentioned. Don't engage in a debate. Our wives a far more sophisticated communicators than we are.



> That one really hurt. Like a dagger through the heart.


Be strong, for yourself and your family. We'll get you through this.


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## SteelerGuy

OK. Another flaw is I try to over plan. I'll keep your advice in mind. I don't know if we will talk any more tonight since she is trying to get ready for the baby shower. She seemed a little happier when she came downstairs a second time. I don't know what is going to come of this, but I have faith.


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## azteca1986

SteelerGuy said:


> And don't be sorry to say it. It is pitiful. If I was a stronger man, I would have sent the OM packing years ago. But I wrote it off as not being a big deal and didn't want to confront it. I'm learning how to stand up for what I want and need.


I didn't use the word pitiful to make feel bad about yourself. I have so much faith in you because of the difference in your tone, from your first post to how you're posting now.

I'll be honest with you I didn't finish the first chapter of NMMNG before I ditched it; couldn't relate. But I'll tell you this when I hear good men like you lamenting their lack of strength or that you're too Beta...

Remember: You were Alpha enough to win your wife in the first place. You were Alpha enough to get her to commit to you for life. You have it in you. We're all trying to help you find what you have in yourself already.


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## walkonmars

SteelerGuy said:


> ... I've wanted to go to counseling with her so badly before, but she refused. A big part is what I have mentioned before in that she doesn't want anyone to know we have problems. ...


Yet she has no problem complaining about you to her boyfriend and eating up his bullsh*t complements while you work your ass off and worry about your family. 

Be the leader a husband is supposed to be. There will be a time when you need to be supportive of your wife. This is not the time, not until she is your wife in fact and deed not in name only. Tell her that too.


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## azteca1986

SteelerGuy said:


> OK. Another flaw is I try to over plan. I'll keep your advice in mind. I don't know if we will talk any more tonight since she is trying to get ready for the baby shower. She seemed a little happier when she came downstairs a second time. I don't know what is going to come of this, but I have faith.


If you have a plan run it by us. We're here to help you keep your family intact. Just ignore her. Go to bed. Get some rest. 

A small point on our man Acabado. I believe he's Spanish. English is his second language (I think). This makes what he posts blunt; gloriously, wonderfully blunt. Take what he says on board, even if the delivery method takes your breath away. Where he posts from is where you're going to get to.

It's now 01:35 in London. I'll leave in the capable hands of our friends on your side of the Atlantic.


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## SteelerGuy

azteca - I know you weren't trying to put me down by calling me pitiful. But the truth hurts. So does the situation that I am in. I need to get called out for my B*** S***. Sometimes I need a level head to point me in the right direction, and sometimes it needs to be blunt. The main point is to get better.


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## ThreeStrikes

SteelerGuy said:


> azteca - I know you weren't trying to put me down by calling me pitiful. But the truth hurts. So does the situation that I am in. I need to get called out for my B*** S***. Sometimes I need a level head to point me in the right direction, and sometimes it needs to be blunt. The main point is to get better.


The upcoming days and weeks are going to be defining moments of your life, regardless of the outcome.

A lot of us have been there. We know what you are going through.

Be strong. Try to sleep. (And eat, even though you might not be hungry.)


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## azteca1986

SteelerGuy said:


> azteca - I know you weren't trying to put me down by calling me pitiful. But the truth hurts. So does the situation that I am in. I need to get called out for my B*** S***. Sometimes I need a level head to point me in the right direction, and sometimes it needs to be blunt. The main point is to get better.


Okay, last thing I post before I go to bed. 

STOP PUTTING YOURSELF DOWN. Stop it. Right now.

You are in the situation you are because your wife has a BOYFRIEND. She's had him since the day you were married. _That's_ the truth.


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## walkonmars

SteelerGuy said:


> azteca - I know you weren't trying to put me down by calling me pitiful. But the truth hurts. So does the situation that I am in. I need to get called out for my B*** S***. Sometimes I need a level head to point me in the right direction, and sometimes it needs to be blunt. The main point is to get better.


Right attitude!!!

You're going to be fine one way or the other. Life is full of ups and downs. You'll be giving relationship advice to your kids one day and these days will pop into your mind. You want to be proud of the way you handled yourself.


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## SteelerGuy

It's mostly her family. Most of her family lives within 20 minutes of us. All of my family is 6-8 hours away or further. You can thank my parents for that one.

Ok. I'll handle this weekend like I was planning to. One question is, how do you handle the 180 at social gatherings?


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## SteelerGuy

I wasn't putting myself down. I was just speaking the truth. Sometimes the truth from you guys hurts. I've never even remotely considered divorce before, and I still don't know about that part.

But I am working on being stronger. And for the hungry part, I'm really not eating very much. Today, all I ate was about 8 bites of oatmeal, a cup of yogurt for lunch, and a small plate of spaghetti for dinner. I've lost 12 pounds since last Monday.


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## walkonmars

The 180 is all about you. 

Be polite to everyone. Don't talk about your relationship to anyone. Have this mindset:

"Everyday in every way I'm getting better and better."

Don't try to be either the life of the party or a party pooper. If you're the host, then host. If you're watching the game - then enjoy it. 


Confident
Cordial
Courteous
Self-assured


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## azteca1986

SteelerGuy said:


> *I wasn't putting myself down.* I was just speaking the truth. Sometimes the truth from you guys hurts. I've never even remotely considered divorce before, and I still don't know about that part.


I stand corrected. My apologies. 

I like it when you stand up for yourself.


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## SteelerGuy

Ok. I can do that. Maybe I can try to just be me.


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## SteelerGuy

No, not maybe. I will just be me.


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## Aspydad

SteelerGuy,

First, I am very sorry for the situation that you are in. Cannot imagine four kids under the age of six! I know that keeps you and your wife very busy. I really don't have a feel for your living arrangements - do you work and wife stays home?

I saw where you mentioned that your wife has an online relationship with another man who you say is a Christian influence? This statement makes no sense! You try to justify the relationship based on your perception that another man is a Christian? - This is ridiculous! The other man is a sinner just like any other man in this world and actually worse since he is using the name of Jesus to have an affair with married women!!! You need to call him out now! If he is a Christian as you say - he will immediately get the heck out of your marriage. 

Now, with regards to your wife - you need to start planning (if you have not already) – and get your ducks in a row and assume NOT as the title of your thread says but, that she is going to leave you - it's just a matter of time. Unless - she really does love you. If she does not, do you really want to remain married to her? She is the one that has to prove to you her love - not, the other way around. The only way your going to know - is to do the 180 now (right after you get the other dude out of your wife’s life!!!!)

Good Luck!


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## 6301

Steeler Guy.

So am I a Steeler Guy. From the "Burgh". Ok friend please listen to what I'm saying. First. Who in their right mind is going to run off with a guy she never met? Nothing like buying a pig in a poke ya know? 

Second of all you said you don't like confrontations. Who does? Nobody but there comes a time when there is no other choice but to confront and that's what you have to do now. Start by calling her bluff.

Sit her ass down and let her know that, yes, you do not walk on water and your far from perfect by then she isn't either. Let her know that it doesn't mean a rats ass if she doesn't feel that this is an EA. All that matters is YOU DO! Now, with that, she needs to be kicked off the fence that she's straddling and putting you through hell. Tell her to put an end to this farce with a guy she never met now. Of course she's going to give you some half ass excuse. When that happens, then and this is the time you have no choice but to put your big boy pants on and tell her that since she can't make her mind up, then you'll do it for her. 

Find her suitcases and tell her to text Mister Wonderful and let him know she's coming ALONE. Let her know this in a way that she see's that you are not fooling around with her and her twisted fantasy any longer. Let her know that you expect her to be gone by the next day and for her to leave an address so the divorce papers can be mailed to her for her to sign. 

Do not give her the opportunity to respond. If she does, stop her in mid sentence and tell her that the time for talking is over and for her to enjoy herself in Fantasy Land with her imaginary lover and leave it at that. Then you call her family and friends and fill them in on her EA and let her finally deal with her own problems.

Maybe you weren't the greatest husband. So far she ain't fairing much better but if she isn't happy then she should have just filed like an adult and left.

You have to stop rolling over and playing dead. She knows she has you by the short hairs and you letting her and by doing that, it doesn't matter how much you change for the better, your losing respect by the truck load every day. If she has no respect for you, then you know what you got? NOTHING. ZERO. ZILCH. ZIP. Right now the only thing your doing is just being in her way. Let her take responsibility for her actions. Let her hang her head around friends and family. She's earned it, she caused it and she has to accept it. If you don't, I promise you that you ain't seen nothing yet because it will get a lot worse.

All these people advising you on this forum fall in to the category of "BEEN THERE, DONE THAT". There not responding to you for nothing better to do, they know what your going through and they are trying their best to make sure that you don't go through the same thing they had to. Open your ears and listen to them. Your lucky that there is a forum like this because a lot of us didn't know about it. Suck it up man and put it where it belongs. With her.


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## SteelerGuy

I want to give you guys a quick update before I head to bed for the night. My wife came down crying her eyes out while I was talking to you earlier and doing the NMMNG. She came over and said that she needed a hug, and I asked her why. She said that she was upset and needed a hug and that I shouldn't have to ask why. I explained to her the situation and how I felt and before I got too far into it, she started to run off, but she definitely wasn't herself. She was speaking in half sentences and I could tell that she was absolutely crushed. I went after her and asked her what happened, and she said that she was done with the OM and she came down to me for support and was hurt when I wasn't there for her. We sat down and had a serious discussion about where things are at. She said that she is still so hurt and doesn't know what to do. She didn't know if I could really change. I told her how I felt about the OM and that it couldn't have worked with him in the middle. She then started crying some more and said that she thinks she still loves part of me but it is so buried under the hurt that she doesn't know. I told her that if she couldn't love me unconditionally, that it was never going to work. She said that she did when we first got married, but things are complicated now after years of her getting hurt. I told her that I have to go through this change with or without her but that I finally know how to really change and that she needs to work on herself too so that we can make real change in her marriage. She cried a bunch more and said she is thinking about it. Then a tornado warning came and we quickly had to get all of the kids into the basement. What a night.

Anyways, I am purely blown away. 2 days ago I could have sworn that my marriage was over and I was doomed to be lonely and miserable for ever. I can't believe that after only two days of support with you guys and reading NMMNG that I have come this far. I still have a long way to go, but at least my marriage has a chance now. Thank you guys for all of your support. I will keep giving you guys updates to let you know how things are going. I can't wait to find out what else I will learn about myself in NMMNG. I can't wait to see what I can fix next. Where I was broken, I am now invigorated. Chris August's Restore is my life's anthem now.


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## nuclearnightmare

SteelerGuy said:


> Also, I know I have an uphill battle with trying to win her back. But I feel so encouraged by NMMNG and my other tools. Please pray for me.


I'm trying to help you, as are others here. I'm simply going to give you my impressions on your situation, based on what you've described:

Your wife is little more than garbage and could very well be the worst thing that ever happened to you. She has manipulated you to such an extreme extent that you think her bad behavior his your fault. Does not sound like she ever loved you. She probably has a talent for manipulating all sorts of people.

You should want to win her back about as much as you should want a case of small pox. You need to be planning how to get away from her. And how to take care of your children while you do it. Frankly, I have a feeling that your children would also be better off without her.

Too late to write more. Hopefully some of the more knowledgeable on here can advise on the right way to go about this. It'll check in again, but best of luck to you. You just need to see her and see yourself more clearly


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## Dyokemm

SteelerGuy,

Do you know if she ended it with OM?...or did he dump her because of all the drama that has been stirred up recently?


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## Vulcan2013

Has anyone on this thread recommended Married Man Sex Life Primer? It goes hand-in-hand with NNMNG. 

You shouldn't expect to be loved "unconditionally", and you shouldn't try to love her that way. If she killed your children, would you really still love her? That is an ideal only God is capable of. What we need to do is be a person worthy of love, and our spouse has the same duty. 

I think your wife may be NPD. I don't want to be rude, but your writing has a certain "brainwashed" feel to it, but it seems like you are waking up. Treat yourself has a man of value, not a loser begging for affection. 

Your wife is behaving outrageously, and you really need to stand up to it. The good news is that it seems like she has some conscience, and is practically begging you to stop putting up with her nonsense. 

Good work on starting the 180. But stop worrying about how she responds. Hey, did I mention MMSL? The author used to post on TAM for several years.


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## ThreeStrikes

SteelerGuy,

Your wife was upset and crying because she had a falling-out with OM. So she came running to you, her plan B.

Do not count on this being the end of OM. Not by a longshot. He will be back, most likely today, and they will spend hours chatting on the phone.

Cheaters like to eat cake, and your wife isn't going to give up her favorite flavor without a fight.

Read these short articles by Chumplady when you get a chance:

The Unified Theory of Cake

The Humiliating Dance of ‘Pick Me’!

I guess the point is this: This breakdown she had is most likely about her relationship with *him*, not you.

PS. Can you check phone records and see how long their phone calls are every day?


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## movin on

Your wife comes to you for support after her and her boyfriend break up 

You know that isn't really a positive sign?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

Come on TAM posters. This exchange was not all negative. WW admitted that she was going the wrong direction. Now Steeler has to make certain that the words and actions match.

She must write the NC letter. He must read it. The letter can include no hint of _goodbye for now, love you later_.

Insist on her passwords to telephone and email.

re: her orgasms
A lot of sex is mental. If you put yourself in the center of sex she may experience pleasure as you take her on the ride. Some women have trouble reaching climax. Bone up on how to discover  the G spot.

Make sure you take care of your health. Do push ups 4 times a day. Max out. How many can you do now in one go?


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## anchorwatch

Good morning, Steeler.

From not wanting to touch or sleep with you, to ball of tears needing a hug. You have disestablished the relationship and maybe her grip on you. That is good step. Your persistence, (though passive at first) has her questioning not only you but herself and her actions with the OM. She needs a leader now, YOU!

If she has cut the OM/OSF off, she will go through an emotional and physical withdraw, from the comfort she got from him. This feeling will go back and forth for a while. (Be aware, she may falter with NC.) You must replace this for her. As she agrees to give you what is needed for recovery, you can reciprocate in the relationship. Do not over do it. Don't be a doormat. If she pulls away again, you push the 180 harder. Stay the course (NNMNG), from here on out, whatever happens with the relationship.

Now get her to agree to attend MC. She has complained about to others about you. Their toxic counsel against you, was born out of empathy for her. That is why you need an impartial professional MC, to address the real problems and to promote growth in the marriage.


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## azteca1986

Wow. Amazing update. Firstly, I hope you, your loved ones and your neighbours are all safe.



SteelerGuy said:


> My wife came down crying her eyes out while I was talking to you earlier and doing the NMMNG. She came over and said that she needed a hug, and I asked her why. She said that she was upset and needed a hug and that I shouldn't have to ask why. I explained to her the situation and how I felt and before I got too far into it, she started to run off, but she definitely wasn't herself. She was speaking in half sentences and I could tell that she was absolutely crushed. I went after her and asked her what happened, and *she said that she was done with the OM and she came down to me for support and was hurt when I wasn't there for her. *


So, she thinks that it's acceptable to ask her husband to comfort her when she has a tiff with her boyfriend? She should think again. You did well here by not automatically being there for her. 



> We sat down and had a serious discussion about where things are at. She said that she is still so hurt and doesn't know what to do. She didn't know if I could really change. *I told her how I felt about the OM and that it couldn't have worked with him in the middle. * She then started crying some more and said that she thinks she still loves part of me but it is so buried under the hurt that she doesn't know. I told her that if she couldn't love me unconditionally, that it was never going to work. She said that she did when we first got married, but things are complicated now after years of her getting hurt. I told her that I have to go through this change with or without her but that I finally know how to really change and that she needs to work on herself too so that we can make real change in her marriage. She cried a bunch more and said she is thinking about it.


Good stuff, you've got the subject out in the open. You have to be unwavering in your position: No boyfriends/third parties in the marriage. Did you get to the bottom of what happened between OM and your wife?



> Then a tornado warning came and we quickly had to get all of the kids into the basement. What a night.


I have to say not everyone has the good fortune to have a major relationship discussion punctuated by an act of God.

Call me devious if you must, but I would take this as A Sign. 

I would tell your wife that as you huddled in the basement together, preparing to perhaps lose everything you own, that you came to realise your true priorities; everyone in your basement. And no one else. It was a sign for you to lead your family.

I'm not trying to trivialise anything here, but that tornado warning (and I hope it was just a warning) was literally a God given opportunity. God helps those who help themselves, I believe. Do not look a gift tornado in the mouth.


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## walkonmars

Good start....but only a start. (if you didn't have 4 kids, I honestly would urge you to leave this woman - your expressed love for her notwithstanding)

Make sure there is no return to OM - NC letter, password-free phone and apps - total transparency 

She needs to tell her mom (who is likely to continue to urge her to be independent) that relationship advice from her will no longer be welcome. 

She needs to agree to MC - find an MC experienced with issues in infidelity - and secular

Like Azteca, I too winced reading about the interruption caused by the tornado. How metaphorical. But as for that, who did she seek for comfort in that time of immediate panic? Her boyfriend or you? Who provided shelter, comfort and strength?


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## walkonmars

Steeler

Is there any chance your wife has been reading your thread? Do you get gmail alerts when there's a new post. I have a feeling she knows you are here.


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## crossbar

I agree with the others...just because she got into a little "spat" with the OM doesn't mean that they're done. 

Plus, I though he was just a "friend". I get into arguments with my friends periodically and I don't go running to my wife for a hug.


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## LostViking

Steeler listen to these people...

You are not getting it. You're just not...

What happened last night was not any kind of progress. None. Yourdemented wife had a falling out with her OM. They will make up today or tomorrow and she will be back to treating you like garbage. 

Divorce her. Do the 180. Continue working on NMMNG and the MAP. Become the man you want to be and move on without her. She is a sick person who is beyond your ability to save.


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## SteelerGuy

walkonmars - no, she hasn't been reading the thread. She knows of the site, but has no idea which site. I change my password when I started this process and I keep my phone with me.

As to your question about the tornado, she didn't mention the OM and was only concerned with getting them and us to safety. We gathered them and and got downstairs and called her mom to let her know. There was a tornado that touched down 10 miles north of where I live, and our whole house was shaking and several buildings in the town just south of us got destroyed by the winds. I kind of took it as a sign too. Things are changing and my wife is scared. She's scared about making the wrong choice and scared that things won't actually change. The one thing that I do know is that if I don't successfully change, my marriage will be done for sure.

longwalk - thank you for your support. It was definitely not all negative. Things are not fixed by any means, but I was encouraged by the outcome of last night that we can make the steps towards recovery as a couple. as far as the sex goes, the sex between us has gotten really good, especially within the past few years. I can give her multiple oragasms every time and we connect on every level. She even said at one point that she loves that part, but that's not enough. The other problem is that as I went down, the sex tanked with it. Sex is very mental and if we weren't connecting mentally because I was on the downward path of being a nice guy, then we wouldn't have sex and I would fill that void with other things (pornography, food, video games). Anything that I could control. Another issue from last night that I overcame was I really, really wanted to have sex with her. And I know that I could have if I tried. I felt that it would have re-connected us in many ways, but the problem is that we would always use sex to reconnect in the past. I knew I had to refrain myself until I can get to the point where I know I am strong enough to not fall back down after having sex. My wife mentioned many, many times to me that she felt as long as we were having sex a lot, that our relationship was great, but when we weren't for whatever reason, it turned sour. This is very true.

Now, for the comments and questions about the OM, I'm not exactly sure what happened. I asked to see her phone, and she said that she already deleted all of the text messages. She said that they were done and that was the end of it. She said that she never would have moved out there (I already knew that would never happen) and that she never really considered leaving me for him. She said if anything she was going to leave me because she is so unhappy. She said all of the pain that she has suffered over the years has built up so much and she didn't know if she could recover from it.

After that is when we talked about everything else that I already mentioned. I haven't written off that the OM would try to come back into our life, but I know that she won't send him a no-contact letter. I know how you guys feel about that, but that's where things stand. I talked to her about how no man could come between us and that certain things need to stay in our marriage. I told her that we need to set boundaries and be completely open with each other.

anchorwatch - that is kind of how I feel. I know I have to lead the family, like she has been begging me to do for years. My biggest concern at this point is being strong enough when the OM finally got out of the picture. I know that she will be hurting because of the missing relationship, and I need to be strong enough to fill that gap the right way. I honestly was not expecting it to happen this quickly.

To continue on from last night, after the thunderstorm, we put the kids back to bed and she took care of the baby while I went back downstairs and studied. After a while, I went back upstairs to see if she and the baby were ready to go to bed. The baby was sleeping and I went over to talk to her. I asked her where she was at, and she said she didn't know how she felt. She was confused and hurting and didn't know what to do. I re-affirmed that I was doing the NMMNG and that I was going to get better and it was her choice of where to go next. That I am going to get me better for me and she could decide whether to stay or leave. She started crying again and said that her head was foggy and she needed some time to think for a little bit. I went downstairs and prayed for a little and fell asleep on the couch. She came down at a little after 3:00 AM and asked me to come to bed, and I went upstairs and slept next to her. That was when I wanted to have sex with her but restrained.

As for the other comments about my wife, I respect everyone's opinion on here completely and I know that everyone is trying to help. I also know that everybody comes from there own set of experiences in the personal life and others that they have seen on here. The one thing that I will say is that in general, my wife is a good person who has done bad things. Just as I am a good person that has done bad things. My wife has severe abandonment issues, as do I, just in completely different ways. And for the calls for me to just up and divorce her, I understand completely how you feel. And I understand completely the comment from Vulcan about unconditional love and how it is God's love. But there are examples out there of people being so filled with the holy spirit that they forgive those that have murdered there loved ones and say they love them and pray for them. That is powerful stuff. It's not about being right and wrong. My wife and I have both been wrong many times in our marriage. If I wanted to quit, we would have divorced 3-4 years ago the first time that she left for the night. I love her with all my heart, for better or for worse, in her best condition or her worst one. I'm not just using the Christian and God cop out. That is truly how I feel.

Too long in this country has divorce been considered the ok thing to do. Do you guys realize how high the divorce rate in this country is? How hard broken marriages are on the whole family and how it is literally destroying our country and world? It's not that I'm being weak. I'm showing conviction to the promise that I made to my wife and to God. I am getting stronger every day, getting my feet underneath me and praying for the strength to continue to better myself. It is very empowering. I love fixing these issues in me, the things that made me not love me. I haven't loved myself for a very, very long time. I know it started at least in Elementary School. I was always different for several reasons, but I tried to fit in anyway, sacrificing myself in the process. I won't do it anymore.


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## SteelerGuy

I know that last post probably came off as a rant, and I'm not trying to offend anyone or put anyone's advice aside. Right now while I'm getting through this, I am literally brain and emotion dumping every chance I get. I am pouring my whole heart and soul into everything that I do, which is something I haven't done in a long time. I have to be real about this, and real with my self if I ever want to get better. I'm sure not all of you have gone through NMMNG, so you don't fully understand what I am going through nor do you fully understand the dynamics of the relationship with my wife. I welcome any and all questions as I go through this journey.


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## walkonmars

Steeler

your first post and your last post are miles apart from a 'personal-growth' standpoint. You're going to be okay. 

Yes, divorce is a devastating process. Marriage can be seen from many different angles. You view it, as do many, as a holy institution. Good for you. You also recognize that you have faults as does your wife. 

Considering that you are willing to change yourself, then I suppose that your wife can also change. But just as she doesn't trust that you can truly change, you should be wary of her dumping her boyfriend. 

The fact that she didn't offer her phone/password to you (in other words transparency) doesn't augur well for true change on her part. Don't let this go. Ask again. There can be no secrets. And the NC letter on her part is really needed. 

Don't press it but tell her unless you see one you just won't believe it's over between them - and will treat your marriage as such. 

Hardball.


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## azteca1986

SteelerGuy said:


> I know that last post probably came off as a rant, and I'm not trying to offend anyone or put anyone's advice aside. Right now while I'm getting through this, I am literally brain and emotion dumping every chance I get. I am pouring my whole heart and soul into everything that I do, which is something I haven't done in a long time. I have to be real about this, and real with my self if I ever want to get better. I'm sure not all of you have gone through NMMNG, so you don't fully understand what I am going through nor do you fully understand the dynamics of the relationship with my wife. I welcome any and all questions as I go through this journey.


Stop apologising 

I thought there was a lot of good stuff in your post (didn't come across as a rant at all). That's what this place is here for. There's amazing clarity to be found when you write out your thoughts. TAM is for you. We'll try and help if we can.

She needs to go NC through a letter (ideally) that you see and post to OM. It is not a fond farewell, neither does it leave the door open in the future.


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## SteelerGuy

Yeah, I have a problem with apologizing too. I'm working on it.


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## SteelerGuy

I also have a problem with being decisive. I would never want to make a decision for fear that I would choose the wrong thing and be judged for it.


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## tdwal

SteelerGuy said:


> Yeah, I have a problem with apologizing too. I'm working on it.


So do I man, my whole life. NNMNG sure made that apparent to me. You have to think before you respond and stop yourself from apologizing. Once you do it for a while the stop and think becomes habit and you can quit the behaviour.


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## azteca1986

SteelerGuy said:


> I also have a problem with be decisive. I would never want to make a decision for fear that I would choose the wrong thing and be judged for it.


Here's an analogy that might help:

_When I was taught to sketch we were told that we should never erase a wrong stroke. Each line in the wrong place would be a guide to get it right next time. Another mis-stroke? Well now I've got two guides._

So, your 'bad' decisions, so long as you learn from them, help you make good decisions in the future. In time you'll realise that the vast amount of decisions you make fall into these two categories and you learn to trust your judgement as a consequence. I also learned not to emotionally invest in any actual decision; it clouds your judgement. I don't _always_ get it 'right', but then who does? Not worth worrying about.


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## SteelerGuy

That is great insight. I huge part of me that I'm learning about in NMMNG is that I aspired to be perfect, and because I can't be perfect, I would either stress about being perfect and go crazy trying to hide the fact that I wasn't or go off the deep end in the other direction and give into the imperfection while hiding it because the stress of the first way was too much to handle. But I'm learning. Thanks for your advice.


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## SteelerGuy

A big part that my wife is struggling with right now is that she has really, sincerely tried to help me with this for the past seven years. I know she wants to see me change, but she's seen me fail so many times she's almost numb to it. She has come to expect it, and she doesn't understand why I couldn't fix it with her help in the past. I have told her that the change had to be bigger than her and it was bigger than just knowing the problem. I always knew and was at least aware on some level about my issues. I just never knew how to fix them until now.


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## badmemory

SteelerGuy said:


> I haven't written off that the OM would try to come back into our life, but I know that she won't send him a no-contact letter.


Steeler,

You are an enigma. You continue responding to posts, reading all the advice, laying out all your details. That's good.

But even with the little progress you've made, you're ignoring what we're trying to help you to understand. 

It's fine to tell her that you'll work on yourself, the marriage; that you want to be a better husband. But you have to tell her you can't do that until she agrees to take every necessary action to end the contact. You don't take her word for it. If she refuses to send him a no contact letter and you let it go, you've lost. That's one thing you absolutely can't accept.

That's your prerogative. It's your life and your marriage. You're not untypical of many BS's we see here, with the exception that you keep posting. I'll give you that.

Good luck. I give up. (I'm beginning to understand Shaggy's frustration).


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## Acabado

Friend, why don't you have a problem with her being sneaky, secretive, deleting texts, having paswords, trashing you to her boyfriend, etc but she's outraged because you got sneaky and caught you once seeing a porn movie (what a complete monster you are, for heaven's sake!).
What's wrong with this picture? Why the obvious different expectations and double standars?
What are your expectations in a marriage?
What don't you DEMAND her to end things with her boyfriends in a way wich satisfy you? Why don't you DEMAND complete transparence and honesty? Why don't you demadn acces to her comunication devices, forbid deleting texts...?
Why don't you demand of her being strong, to put her big girl pants and get professional help?

Expectations, boundaries... the law. 
Already.
No barganing, this is the way things will be or they won't be any other way. Start having expectations and demand them. They are very reasonable, way more than hers. Any person out there can see it, that's why she desn't want to talk to anyone... except this clown, of course.

What you describe as her complains about you and her misery are not in the same ballpark as having a boyfriend for the entire marriage. There's no marriage that can resist this unfair comparison between fantasy and constant validation and real life. There's no marriage in wich a partner has a former boyfriend (She can't deny this) feeding constantly this nonsense. If it were you the one involved with an XGF and complaning top her she doesn't reach the minimum styandars it would be the third world war. Don't you think?

Stop feeding this line of thinking m the whole "i'm so miserable" - perpetual victim


> She said if anything she was going to leave me because she is *so unhappy*. She said all of the pain that she has suffered over the years has built up so much and she *didn't know if she could recover from it*.
> 
> She* started crying again and said that her head was foggy and she needed some time to think for a little bit*.


Start calling her on this bull.
The boyfriend. Now.
Lay the law, she's in or out. NOW.

Do you know what i believe? I already told you, this OM as potentia partner, treatening the divorce... they were no more than bull, she's a drama queen (sorry friend, that's waht I see here) wich needs to have you on the edge forever.
She never thought about leaving you, she didn't discuss anything serious with the clown as planning a future with him, yesterday nothing important happened in their conversation, they didn't "break up" for good. But you can use her declaration.

Detach for a little more, stop asking "how you are", stop telling her what books you are studying, limit to learn and act as the new, assertive, demanding, strong you. If she asks tell her you are thinking your path now she has broken with her BOYFRIEND (remember: her.boyfriend. Tell it out load several times).

And start snooping, don't buy for a minute she's done with OM, she will reconect very soon, she's used to use him to build up herself, to get validation, fore years and years, it's like a drug she won't give up so easyly, she just saw you serious, different, this time, therefore told you she broke with him. She expect you to shut up. She's feeling the power shift slowly changing, that her perpetual victim attidute is starting to fail.
She's buying time, she loves to have you scared, she plays your fears. She's highly manipulative, everyone here can see it but you becasue of years of this behavior you have internalized and can't recognize. Talk about the boiling frog.
Specially watch the finances, she mentioned the CC!! Wake Up, man.

You are doing better, keep in this path. Still a long way to go.

Hang in there.


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## azteca1986

badmemory said:


> It's fine to tell her that you'll work on yourself, the marriage; that you want to be a better husband. But you have to tell her you can't do that until she agrees to take every necessary action to end the contact. You don't take her word for it. If she refuses to send him a no contact letter, you've lost. That's one thing you absolutely can't accept.


SteelerGuy, remember why you're here: Your wife had a boyfriend which she kept for the entirety of your marriage. A boyfriend to whom she siphoned off time, love and affection that rightfully belonged in the marriage. A boyfriend she was planning to finally go see and... err... 'hug'.

As her husband you have an absolute right to know why her relationship ended. Is is really over? Is it on a hiatus? Or has it gone underground? She has deleted all the evidence - not a good sign of her openness at all. Deleted texts can be recovered depending on a phone and Operating System. What phone does she have? Which carrier?

*Important lesson: People treat you the way you allow them to.
*


SteelerGuy said:


> A big part that my wife is struggling with right now is that she has really, sincerely tried to help me with this for the past seven years. I know she wants to see me change, but she's seen me fail so many times she's almost numb to it. She has come to expect it, and she doesn't understand why I couldn't fix it with her help in the past. I have told her that the change had to be bigger than her and it was bigger than just knowing the problem. I always knew and was at least aware on some level about my issues. I just never knew how to fix them until now.


It would be most healthy for you if you read this again but with roles reversed and the issue in question being her boyfriend of twelve years. What's true for you is true of her. No one in a marriage gets special dispensation for unacceptable behaviour if you are working toward an equal partnership.


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## SteelerGuy

I have a lot to think about. It's going to be a long weekend since there are pretty much non-stop things that I need to do with my wife / family. I will provide updates when I can.


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## azteca1986

SteelerGuy said:


> That is great insight. I huge part of me that I'm learning about in NMMNG is that *I aspired to be perfect*, and because I can't be perfect, I would either stress about being perfect and go crazy trying to hide the fact that I wasn't or go off the deep end in the other direction and give into the imperfection while hiding it because the stress of the first way was too much to handle. But I'm learning. Thanks for your advice.


Just an observation. 

As I told you last night I can't really relate to NMMNG and didn't finish it. So, I'm curious if this is a common trait in Nice Guys? I'm not one, which doesn't make me an A**hole; I'm quite nice. Just not _Nice_. 

It seems to me that NGs are unbelievably harsh on and about themselves. I could not imagine setting myself a standard that I had no hope of attaining. Nobody is perfect. Not me. Not my wonderful wife. Not my friends. If you set out to be perfect, you're doomed to fail. I only set out to do the best I can in the circumstances. You can't ask for more than that. And it doesn't preclude me from having achieved a thing or two in my life. It honestly pains me to hear someone talk themselves down. I can't relate to that either.

---------------------------------------

It saddens me that _badmemory_ has come to the point he had to 'give up'. He's an excellent poster. But what can I say? We all give our time freely to try and help others. The thread will be all the poorer without his contribution. But if could entice him back I'd say: "This thread is only three days old. In that time we've had the a determination to change from the OP, noticeable change from the OP (we've noted it in his posts, his WW has noticed too), the OM dumped (at least for now) and a tornado. Rome wasn't built in a day, fella"

SteelerGuy, I think we'd all be a little happier if you would reassure us that you acknowledge the need to address the points raised by badmemory, Acabado and walkonmars with regard to your Wandering Wife (WW).


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## alte Dame

I know you love your W and don't want to hear criticism, but she is entitled. Acabado called her a drama queen. I was thinking princess, with two men bowing and scraping for her. What an ego boost! What is this terrible pain and unhappiness that you seem to have caused your poor wife? I seem to have missed it.

She appears to believe that she is entitled to a mythical level of happiness that she defines and you must somehow intuit. When you don't get it 'right,' she's the victim. How painful this is!

Seriously, Steeler, your W has gifted herself with a boyfriend throughout your marriage; she has done it openly and blames you for anything and everything that leads to her unhappiness. This is a different type of cake-eater. Please put your foot down and insist that the boyfriend get jettisoned and she becomes transparent.


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## ThreeStrikes

SteelerGuy's wife is an exceptional rugsweeper.

Change can come, but usually only at the precipice.

Remove her from her pedestal.

Observe her actions. A term we use here is "stay at 50K", which means don't listen to what she says, just observe her actions as if you were hovering at 50K feet....or watching a silent movie of your lives. Words mean nothing.

Stay calm, firm, and dispassionate in your communications with her. *Do not be needy and clingy!*

Keep focusing on you. This is a long journey you've begun.


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## Remains

It is great to see a thread where the poster takes on board the good advice he is given...and changing his situation for the better. Well done Steeler! It is great to see you undertaking positive changes and embracing them. 

I think you need to find out a truth about what happened between your wife and her bf. I believe this is very important. I mean, REALLY REALLY IMPORTANT! This needs to be a part of 'the talk' that will be happening at some point. 

The importance of this is that it seems too far fetched that she ditched him due to you undertaking a 180 for just a few days. 

If she did ditch him, why? And why was she so upset? 

If she didn't ditch him (highly likely), then he ditched her. This would explain her upset and tears. It also means she did NOT willingly let him go. Thus, she will want to rekindle their 'friendship', she will be open to his fishing if and when he gets in contact again. She will be thinking about what she has lost, upset at what she has lost, wishing to restart again. She will likely text and email him trying to rekindle it. You really need to monitor this and begin snooping further. Her upset shows that he means a lot to her. An awful lot. And THIS is what you have been up against your entire marriage. This is unquestionably an affair. 

This needs dealing with fully. And you really need to know the truth about this to be able to.


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## Acabado

Friend, read carefuly alta dame's and remains' posts.


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## amr1977

SteelerGuy said:


> I haven't written off that the OM would try to come back into our life, but I know that she won't send him a no-contact letter.


Your needs as her husband are less important than her hopes to reconnect with this dude down the line. This would-be R is already dead in the water. 



SteelerGuy said:


> I know that she will be hurting because of the missing relationship, and I need to be strong enough to fill that gap the right way.


This is so backwards it is painful to read. Your wife has been draining emotion from your marriage and giving her love to another man for years...and you want to step in and soothe her now that she and her long-distance BF are in a tiff? 

Your instincts and your default modes of thought and behavior are how you got here. And now you are disregarding a lot of good advice and relying on your usual patterns in the hopes of change. Does this sound like a recipe for success?



SteelerGuy said:


> As for the other comments about my wife, I respect everyone's opinion on here completely and I know that everyone is trying to help. I also know that everybody comes from there own set of experiences in the personal life and others that they have seen on here.


People here do know you and they know your wife. Bottom line is that there are underlying relationship dynamics which trump most of the differences you think are so important. Cheaters come in easily identifiable variations and so do BS's. 

There have been plenty of versions of you before: low self-esteem, taking responsibility for your spouse's misdeeds, desperate to save your marriage. And their will undoubtedly be future iterations.

Your wife has told you she wants a strong man, a leader, repeatedly, right? Is there any man who you view as a strong man? If so, how do you think that guy would react to his wife telling him she wants to leave him for some dude she has never met? 

You think George Patton would have held his wife and cried it out with her. No, I'm pretty sure he would have told her to not let the door hit her in the *ss on the way out.

When you reward her emotional infidelity you are showing weakness. When you comfort her over her "loss" you are showing weakness. When you accept the blame for her straying you are showing weakness.

Right now she is making you afraid to act like a real man and then punishing you for your failure to do so. You can't win if you play by those rules.

If you stay weak either she will leave you or your marriage will be a constant source of pain and embarrassment. Show strength, and yeah, you run the risk that she might leave, but at least you have your self-respect and show your children that their father is worthy of respect.


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## SteelerGuy

I understand what you are saying. I guess the main problem is I don't want to accept that my marriage is over. I just can't imagine my life without my family. They have been my whole life for the past 7 years. I have more work to do in NMMNG. And FYI, she's talking to the OM again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SteelerGuy

I don't know what I'm going to do yet. But I do know this. I'm going to stop feeling sorry for myself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rags

Good start. 

It can only be good for you to be a man - with her, with someone else, or on your own.

Little is less attractive to women than a man they can push around.

Women like men to be men. Not aggressive or abuse, but assertive and with self esteem. If she won't behave in such a way as to let you live the life you need, you're better off withou her. She needs to see this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## alte Dame

I'm sorry for your pain, Steeler, and I mean that sincerely.

I can see that NMMNG is helping you to see things in your own behavior that can improve your life and that is a good thing. It isn't a cure-all, though, when it comes to your marriage.

In a good marriage, in my opinion, we guard one another's hearts. We don't willingly hurt the people we commit ourselves to. We can tell that you would not willingly hurt your WW & that you have tried hard to guard her heart in your relationship. The problem is that she is so self-preoccupied that she doesn't see or really care about your own heart, about your own pain.

Yes, you have to be the strong man. I agree with what everyone says here. But part of that is knowing that you won't allow your spouse to knowingly, carelessly hurt you.

Acknowledging your hurt is only a weakness if you let the person inflicting the pain continue on the same path. If you accept her right to hurt you, you legitimize her behavior.

The fact that your WW has had a boyfriend for the years of your marriage is not your fault. The fact that you accept it at any point is your fault. You did not cause her to cheat, but you allow her to continue to hurt you. You can take a stand about that at any time. You have that power.


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## SteelerGuy

I appreciate your support. The important thing that needs to be remembered here is that I have a lifetime of suffering through these issues. If you read through some of my notes on the NMMNG breaking free section, you would understand some of my pain. I was a sweet, intelligent boy with a few social issues, and instead of getting me help when I was younger, my parents took the easy way out. I even remember them talking to the doctor about me chewing my fingers (I would always chew them until they bleed and never knew why) and he recommended that they take me to therapy. It never happened because they said that I was a good sweet boy.

I also have seven years of marriage tendencies that I am trying to overcome as we'll. it's a work in progress. Maybe my marriage is done. Maybe it isn't. But I'm going to start fighting for what I believe in. I'll probably get hurt again before this is all said and done. But at least ism trying and actually fighting.

Thanks again for all of your help.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SteelerGuy

I'm taking a stand tonight. I don't know how far I will go. Please wish me luck.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## the guy

Taking a stand in what????

What she is doing????you can't control that!

What you will tolorate????that you do have control over!


She can do what she wants...your stand has nothing to do with her, she is free to make her own choice just like you are free to make yours.

So if your protection for the marriage and family is not welcome by your old lady then enough said.

Dude this stand has nothing to do with your chick, it all about what you want out of a wife and she ain't cutting it!!!!!!!!!

Sorry bro but making a stand don't mean sh1t when your chick is still in contact with some phucker that could care a less about your family.

Again...if your missing the point here....your stand is about you and you no longer tolorating the fact that you have to share your wife with some other POS....there a chicks out there that know the meaning of commitment and respect.

Your old lady can do what she wants, just like you can do what you want and go find a women that you can trust.


Sir if I can bring anything to the table right now is that you most be confident to lose your old lady, have the confidence to set her free, have the confidence to be a great dad with or with out their mother.

If you have the confidence this little talk tonight might mean more then just standing up to your old lady...it just might show her what she is about to lose if she continues with her bull crap!!!!!

having been there...its not my spelling you should be looking at but my mind set that got me thru this crap 3 years ago!!!!!

YOU DON'T NEED LUCK...YOU MUST HAVE CONFIDENCE!!!!

If you don't have the confidence then shut up and wait until you do.

Your old lady has someone else, she really isn't in no shape to deal with you when she has some one else on the hook.


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## the guy

SteelerGuy said:


> I don't know how far I will go.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is a bad idea.

Not knowing how far you will go is bad in bussiness,a street fight, raising kids, and even a marriage! All of which I have had personal experience with...by the way!

I suggest you figure out how far you will go, cuz if this is a game of chicken...you my friend will end up in the ditch as your wife drive down the center of the road laughing her @ss off tonight!!!!

Granted she will be pissed your standing up for your self, but the end result is for this to be effective.

So please know your limits and how far you will go before you take this approach.


Again...what are you standing up to??? And what are you really going to do about it if it doesn't go your way???


Seriously do you even know what your options are?


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## the guy

One more thing, cheater can smell weakness, so go down this road tonight with all the strenght you can muster.

If for one second your old lady thinks your bluffing she will screw you over.

Standing up to her must make her second guess what she is about to lose.

You can't control her but you can get her to think twice in what she is giving up, and that is you and the family.

You really have to let her go to save this marriage and if that dont work then there was nothing to save in the 1st place.

What sucks is they always come back with regret...

Stupid cheaters...you just can't fix stupid, but then again is it our job to fix them or protect our own emotional health?

Tonight is is all about your emotional health..nothing more and nothing less....lets face it, your emotional health is more important then anything else....

So tonight stand up...stand up for your own emotional health!!!!


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## LongWalk

> YOU DON'T NEED LUCK...YOU MUST HAVE CONFIDENCE!!!!
> 
> If you don't have the confidence then shut up and wait until you do.


:iagree:

Steeler,

You are catching on. Your thoughts are becoming clearer. You must now trust your intellect to control the emotional turmoil. That is what the other posters are urging you to do. For at this point idle threats may degenerate into meaningless relationship discussions. At this point nice negotiations will not impress your WW.

You understand this now. Just make certain that you to not let her manipulate you in some empty talk.

Your wife, like many, wants choices. She has wanted to eat cake and have it, too. Sorry, you are not feeding the cake eater. But you know, if you say no to cake eating, suddenly you present your wife with a completely new choice: Steeler, a man of character. The idea may be too new for her to accept at once. But if you are consistent it may changer her view of you.

Your view of her has certainly changed in recent times and not for the better. You have no where to go but up. Whether you can save your marriage is uncertain, but you want make certain that you stand up straight. You will no longer beg or plead.


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## Acabado

SteelerGuy said:


> I guess the main problem is I don't want to accept that my marriage is over.


If you keep letting your wife walk all over then you you will lose the marriage forever. It's the path of letting her cheat on you so blatantly what put the marriage hunging by a thread.
Change you, risk everytuing in order to save your marriage.
Demand respect, tell her your boundaires and don't back off.
Then and only then, if your marriage still have a chance, your will seei it matierialize. The old path is a slow death.

Take chargue!


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## walkonmars

Steeler

You need to stop thinking in terms of "saving your marriage" and start thinking of "having a real marriage" . Reason being you don't have what a casual observer would identify as a marriage. 

No offense, but your marriage is a joke. Yeah you have sex and she raves about orgasms, but who's revving her up? Who does she share her emotions with? Who does she look to to commiserate her marital woes? 

You should decide now - or at least before you go further, if you want a real marriage or are willing to continue to be the third wheel. The wheel who pays for groceries, mortgage, utilities, and a lot of other things. 

Sure, you're going to point at your faults to justify giving her a pass - so you're not a saint - big woop!!

I have a feeling that your religious background - compounded by your upbringing - is providing you the cover to accept martyrdom instead of opting to be the leader of your household. 

You need to realize that the world will continue to turn, the sun to rise, the moon to go through it's phases, and the tides to rise and fall. Regardless of how things turn out - 

You can still be a father to your kids and a productive member of your community. You don't have to be a doormat in your own home. 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating divorce. Not at all. BUT you cannot discount that possibility. You have to accept that it may be the outcome in the end. It's kinda like a cop carrying a gun. He doesn't look for opportunities to use it and most never do. But the good ones know when it's required and aren't fearful to use it.


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## LongWalk

You wrote:



> But recently, she said that he speaks to her in a way that I never could and she's thinking about leaving me. She also said that he is trying to convince her to stay and work on our marriage and that *he hasn't come out and asked her to leave*, but she knows how he feels. She just isn't sure since she never met him.


Tell her pack her bags and go to him. She can come back and see your four children on weekends.


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## firefly789

SteelerGuy said:


> Our marriage has been very up and down for a while, and when it is down, *she would become nit-picky *over everything. If I forgot to do something, it was because *I didn't care enough about her* to remember. If I couldn't find something for her, then *I wasn't trying hard enough*. Everything would get like that until I would just blow up out of frustration or s*he would get mad at me for never caring enough to change.....*
> 
> 
> Things started to deteriorate again because *I still wasn't putting her needs first*. Then, when I had the outburst in front of her in front of her family, it broke her. It didn't even seem too bad to me at the time, but I know it crushed her. One of the kids was asking me a question and the 2 year old was running somewhere that he wasn't supposed to go and I was trying to handle that, and she was trying to get my attention to let me know that I was blocking her Grandpa's view of the football game. Instead of calmly handling it, *I said Her name and Please give me a second. That was the extent of it. I immediately felt bad and apologized and I explained to her that I was sorry, but the damage was already done.*
> 
> 
> The guy she is talking to is still 6 hours away, and she said that she would never move the family there and she's trying to decide what to do. I'm just hoping that if I fix myself and keep moving forward with the Love Dare and really getting deeper with my relationship with God, that I can show her that I am worth staying with. But I just don't know.


Steeler, I've read your whole thread. It seems that your wife has you beaten down. Every little fault of yours is magnified. The focus is always on anything you do wrong. Never on what she is doing wrong. Sometimes, the best offense is a good defense. That can work both ways.

Really, she was crushed because you asked her to give you a minute? Why wasn't she coming over to help you, instead? She nit-picks at you, accuses you of not trying hard enough, and complains that you don't care. All the while, she is carrying on for years in an online EA and is considering going to the loser???

Now, finally, you are starting to stand up for yourself and pull the rug out from underneath her and she doesn't like it. That would make her have to face her own problems. Yes, she is going to be emotional as the fantasy of life with OM collides with reality. Does she really think the OM will want a stay-at-home woman with four children running around the place? Even she knows this won't fly because she said she wouldn't move the family there. What is she planning on? Reality has to start crashing down on her at some point. Have you asked her how she is planning on supporting herself?

She has so much more to lose than you do. I hope you keep your new hard earned confidence that you're starting to develop. You can not let your marriage go back to her browbeating you, but never acknowledging her own shortcomings. She needs to start figuring out how she could be so selfish and show such contempt to hold OM over your head the whole marriage. Also, why she hasn't thought about how this would affect her children. 

I hope you get the IC that you never got as a child to see why you've accepted this treatment. I hope you also stop telling your wife what you're going to do, and just implement it. 

Stay strong, Steeler. I am hoping for the best for you and your children. You both deserve so much more.


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## cowboychik

I'm going to say what doesn't want to be heard.

You wanna know the truth? She should have left your butt years ago. That's the truth.

You wanna change now, and come across as calm and cool towards the marriage you've been wrecking, all because you're freaked out because she's talking to a member of the opposite sex?

Honey, I've been in your wifes shoes. Hell, I am your wife for all intents and purposes. I even told my husband the same thing ur wife told you, that's she's biding her time and has a plan to leave your butt.

You aren't getting the answers you need on here, because this section of the site is aimed at for the most part, good spouses that had no idea they were being cheated on.
You, my friend, are in the murky middle.

So you've been a lying, gluttony lovin, self-serving, snarky, demeaning, porn fiendin', jerkin' off, narcissist that his own friends have even said to her "you should divorce his booty." 

Uh yeah, she's the problem. LMAO, these people know better. Marriages aren't black and white. They run the gamut of colors.

Which brings me back to my first point: If she was healthy, she would have left you years ago.

But now 'cuz she talks to OM, she's "garbage" as one person puts it. Someone even told you to grow a pair of nads. LOL, I don't doubt you have a hefty set of family jewels on ya. I mean, the love of your life has been warning you for years that you're a jerk that she wants to divorce, but you decided you weren't gonna budge and continue on your path to marriage destruction. I think you're stupid and selfish, but you've got testicles.

First of all Steelerfan, let me tell ya, exposure isn't the answer. Actually, it is if you want her to make you leave you and you look like an okay guy. If that's the game plan, then do it.

If you want to save your marriage, read on. 

Let me first say that your wife still loves you. She's just royally pissed that it's taken you so long to not be a big d-ck to her. 

I took 10 years of my husbands crap. I was insulted, controlled, demeaned, taken for granted, etc. 
Was it verbally abusive? Not really. He did call me a name or two, but nothing I didn't call him in those last 2 bad years. 
Physically abusive? No. Did he sexually assault me? Not if he wanted to keep his johnson.

He just treated me like crap and was one of the most selfish people I have ever met. 

It didn't start out that way. 2 years of dating and the first year or marriage were Heaven. And that's what will keep a woman in a marriage. I went through 9 years or marital hell all because the first 3 years were great. Yeah, we'll stay that long. Especially if we have kids with you. But eventually, we tire. Some of us have an epiphany and walk out the next morning, some threaten for years and eventually do it (or some don't and stay miserable), some of us have EA's (me), some of us have PA's, some of us pull a Lorena Bobbit, some of us will just jump in a car and run you over like a speed bump, women do a lot of different things. But one thing is for sure, is that there is always a result. 

So let me be frank, you sound like kinda an as-shole to me. Maybe not now at this second when it's finally dawned on you that she might leave you. Eventually though, even if you reconcile, this will wear off and you'll start to fade to who you really are. And who you really are is the problem here, not the OM. 
That's a symptom of the problem. And I know that because I believe your wife still loves you. 

My husband was a d-ck to me. For 3 years, he was great. Not perfect, but great for me. We bickered, had our issues, but 80% of the time he was nice and decent, and 20% of the time, he could be an ass. Then came the great recession for 8 years where he was 20% ok and 80% of a jerk.

8 years of me begging and pleading, and going to counseling, and it changed for a few weeks and then he'd revert to type. And the cycle would continue. I always told him that I'd never up and leave. That he'd never NOT know what the problem is because I wanted him to fix it. I wasn't one of those chicks that made their man guess what the issue was. I was blunt, and so was the solution. But he could only give me a week or two before he returned to the toad he was.

So finally in year 7, he could see that I wasn't caring and had withdrawn. I put on a brave face for the kids, all the while knowing that I would never want my daughters to have a marriage like man. F'g sad, right? 

Finally I said it to him and it hurt him like a kick 2 the nether regions: I have a plan to get out of this marriage. It's only a matter of time; as a matter of fact, this isn't nothin' but a business plan for me to get on my feet and that's the only reason why I tolerate your sick excuse for an existence.

He acted better for less than a week. We got along well. Then not even a week after, and I don't even know how it got brought up, but he tells me "I'm not sure I can fully commit to you after what you said." He meant he couldn't commit to giving me 100% change because I said I had alternate plans. 

I laughed and then left the house and was gone for 2.5 weeks. Longest we've ever been separated. Hardest part was the situation with the kids. 

We talked on the phone, him and I. I told him "how dare you, after years of me begging you to change, tell me you're not sure you can fully commit to this." I talked calmly and slowly, about how wronged I felt and how that summed up the sad state of our marriage. 

When I came back, I don't think I came back on even a 70% level. I was going through the motions for the kids. 

A week later, I started talking to OM. I had known him for 2 years but we'd never spoken outside of our social circle. Then I bumped into him into the store. We talked for 6 months. The first 3 months, it was new and exciting. By month 4 I realized why I was doing this. I was doing this to hurt my husband as much as he had hurt me. And I was so far gone, I didn't care. 

After 12 years of being with one man, I'm not sure even if we met up in a hotel room, that this could have turned to a PA. But it never got that far. 

In month 6, I was nearly discovered but in the heat of the argument, I put it all on the table. Even then the H didn't really believe me. He was in denial. He saw the phone records and texts.

We spent 3 days apart. He didn't tell my family and we didn't speak. On the 4th day he asked if it was a PA and I told him no and said we could go get a lie detector done if he wanted. Just tell me when and where to be.

He said he had one more question, and that was "is it going to continue." I told him, that it was up to him. 
He basically said no, I want us to be married. He said he was scared, he didn't want to mess up and wanted to stay married.
I remember telling him "I love you. If I didn't love you I would have left a long time ago but here's how it's gonna go: you got the first 10 years. I get the next."

And he's been making it up ever since. He has his moments, and I have to check him on that but it's expected. I'm happy and never spoken to OM again. I love my husband and our relationship now.
It's what I've always wanted it to be: fair to the both of us.

The only issue is our sex life. After he haves his little regressions, I find myself being hesitant to just jump into our sex life again and harbor some resentment. I need to work on that. 

I wandered in this side of the forum and found your post, which I identified with that I had to sign up.

While I think that some of these people are helpful, I think your case is slightly challenging and since one size fits all, I wouldn't start a prescription for strep throat on the advice of someone who has just had the flu, if you know what I mean. They may hurt you more than help you. 

From her point of view, this "fixing" and "I'm getting healthy for myself" nonsense is just BS. She's been asking you to do this for years, and this is the solution.

LOL, it reminds me of my sister and her ex. Her ex was a real douche when they'd fight and she'd leave to get some fresh air. He'd yell at her "fine, leave, I don't care. I'm over you already." When he noticed that didn't work and she was leaving more, he called her and said "just remember that I always loved you. If you have to leave, please know that it's your choice but I never asked you to go. Please remember me that way." She said "ok" and hung up. Five minutes later he called her freaking out again. It was just a pompous ploy, one that he would later use to say "I'm healthier than you." But LOL, that wasn't the truth.

^Forgive all the typos, it's 3:30am and I have one eye open. 
Let me add good luck to you steelerfan. I hope you get your act together. I believe your wife loves you, you just need to make things right.


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## LongWalk

Well, Steeler, another view of your situation. Perhaps there is something to learn from CBC. In fact, if you can reconcile the advice you've gotten thus far with what she writes, then you may find an effective approach.

I think this can be two sides of same coin. If Steeler, you change yourself, you may find that your wife will, like CBC, respond positively. However, and probably CBC will agree being a doormat is not the solution. If you control your own POS behaviors, your wife will respect you for that. You cannot accept her POS behavior: cheating.

CBC's opinion is that if you get her to NC with OM, and you should, then you set up a challenge for the two of you: are you going to meet each others needs?

CBC, one thing that you do not fairly address is the duration of the EA. It started very early. It certainly damaged their marriage big time. Was that the behavior of a good wife and good woman? To escape into a long distance fantasy relationship?

Did she concentrate her adultery on this distant relationship in part because it was far away? It was in some way easier for her to control.

CBC, when you husband learned of you EA, would you have respect him if he had allowed you to continue it? Would you have respected him if he had stood passively and watched you take to a PA?

CBC, you should start your own thread with the post you made here. Plenty of folks will respond to what you have written. You can stimulate a good debate. 

re: your marriage
What about yourself have you changed since your husband made an effort?


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## JCD

SteelerGuy said:


> I also have a problem with being decisive. I would never want to make a decision for fear that I would choose the wrong thing and be judged for it.


Remember this: If you DON'T make a decision, I will STILL judge you for it...as an indecisive putz.

So since you CAN'T avoid being judged, you have just lost your excuse for not making decisions.

See how easy that was? 

And since we are on the subject, let's talk about your faith and it's practical application to your life. According to God, you are a flawed person who needs a Redeemer to make you worthy of the Great Condo in the Sky.

You are missing the core of the message however. You are seeking to 'perfect' yourself by avoiding confrontation and decisions. 

That isn't your job. That is Christ's job. You cannot perfect yourself and as a flawed creature, you are ALLOWED to make bad decisions. You are allowed to have 'negative emotions'. You are allowed to have 'needs'.

Now...as Paul wrote, this is not to encourage such behavior. It is incumbent upon you to avoid hurting other people out of malice and without purpose. .

Tell me...was Christ 'non confrontational' in the Temple with the money lenders? Do you think that it didn't take a bit of courage to 'face' the Pharisees, who, btw, just happened to command a temple guard? Did not Christ say 'it was okay to break some sacred laws (pulling an ass out of a ditch, for example) out of common sense. He was confrontational. And there are loads of scripture which speak of 'divorcing' the unworthy in your life. There were also the scriptures about 'spewing them out like lukewarm water, neither hot nor cold'.

So God ENCOURAGES people to use their judgment and to CONFRONT people who are doing bad or evil things. Elijah did not slink around Jeezabel sending her polite enquires as to her health.

Let us be frank here. It is only partly your faith which is causing you to make this effort. You are afraid of failing. It is not Christ who is redeeming you in your psyche right now...it is the fact that you are a father and a husband. There is a lot wrong in your life but as long as you are 'dad', it's okay. It is the role you cling to for all your self worth...and it is slipping away, thus your identity is slipping away. Problem is, you can't hold onto it by yourself.

So...you need to establish an identity for yourself which is NOT based on a marriage for a sense of self worth. You CAN be worthy just as yourself.

You are making baby steps in that effort. I would suggest that you get a bit more scripture under your belt besides the luke warm 'touchy feely' stuff.


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## JCD

Let me share one experience. I had 'a friend' just like your wife. 

All of my emotional effort when to her. My wife finally gave me an ultimatum and it set off a 4 hour long talk.

For a long time it did not look good...but we fixed things. *I* started to fix myself...and she started to fix herself.

Your wife is not some princess on a pedestal that you are besmirching with your trollish presence. She is your WIFE...another flawed creature in God's eyes. One who needs a Savior just as much (if not more) than you do.

So get that image out of your head...and in how you treat her. 

What you are feeling now is great pain...and SHE has a hand in inflicting it. Not to put all the issues of the marriage on her...but you seem DESPERATE to lay ALL the woes of your marriage at your own feet. This isn't true. The fact that she has sex with you does not wash away her imperfections...it just makes you want to overlook them so this sexual state of affairs continues.

However...I do not put your chances very high. Why? Because as you say, every single female family member she has seems to be on marriage three or four.

Her mother is an ENEMY of your marriage. Think very hard on that fact.

So adjust your emotional equiblium accordingly.

Please note that it takes a couple of tries to drop an EA. It really does. Those who think it takes the first time have never been in one and cannot advise you properly.

Because right now, your wife sees her marriage as pain and her time with him as 'not pain'. It is her release. It is a false release, but it still FEELS real.

Your issue is that it is still wrapped in candy floss and fantasy. My wife started telling my kids that my 'friend' was 'their next mom'. 

Huh!

Takes the shine right off the fantasy, let me tell you.

But...that is confrontational.


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## Acabado

> I wandered in this side of the forum and found your post, which I identified with that I had to sign up.


cowboychik, you are reading a complete different thread here, from the very beggining and cherry picking because it seem somehow his story triggered you. Check the facts. OP's wife is not you.


> I was insulted, controlled, demeaned, taken for granted, etc.


This lays in the eye of the beholder (she refuses to talk to anyone about it, sahes doesn't want anyone to know and dissect the reality). We don't have here his wife to elaborate (she won't ever do such a thing, even anonimously). Nothing of what he wrote here resembles the awful marriage you had. Nothing. All is relative and having a boyfriend on the side which validates her complains and tell her she deserved way better change totaly the expectations and the perception of the reality (her truth). From what we now her constant complains and demands could be totaly unrealistic. This is what I believe.


> But now 'cuz she talks to OM, she's "garbage" as one person puts it.





> And who you really are is the problem here, not the OM.That's a symptom of the problem.


Not ever close to your case. It's not "now" that she's talking to OM, after years of despair, this woman has been having an EA with her former boyfriend since day one of the marriage. She's a cake eater, has an haren and making her "men" compete with each other, only she never met OM except for the lines he feeds on the phone and online and his constant validation, remember she once was about to get married to him, he's a fantasy, intact, with no ground on reality. It's not small potatoes, an insignificant detail: it's huge, it changes everything. Their entire marriage has been colored, poisoned by OM's phantasmagoric intrussion. She didn't start talking to an OM after years of disfunction, including multiple failed attempts on MC, half hearted attempt, blatant defiance, and even a separation. It's rather obvious to me her fantasy based "relationship" with OM and the ideals derived from it are key here. This woman complains are not in the same ballpark you had with your husband. The timing and circunstances are completely different.


> 8 years of me begging and pleading, and going to counseling, and it changed for a few weeks and then he'd revert to type.


This woman is the one who refuses MC of any kind while her BH has been begging for it. He maybe has been failing short (she even conceds partial success at some facets, IE the sex seems now perfectly satisfactory for her) but never failed in his commitment, her willingless to change, he never was confussed nor fencesitting about the marriage and never discussed the changes she demanded for him, he toke her complains at face value as the golden truth while his wifes refuses to check them with professionals, any third party... except for OM.


Then she's secretive, refuses to come clean, won't ever send a NC letter, give him the reasurance it's done, she deletes the evidence... offering a polygraph is unthinkable... and so on.

... enough. A little tired to explain myself. I just want to reiterate your narrative don't add up with the story OP wrote here. I beleive you are wrong and what resonates of this story with you is more in your head than anything else becasue you can't relate to the fact some people can't fall in something like cheating this way of not for very good reaons and after you just break under years of pressure. It happens it's not always this way.


I believe you can contribute tons here, I'm all about being accountable for our actions, including of course the BS stuff. I suggest you thou to curb down the insults, talking with this ... familiarity (*******, etc) even with the motivation to help will get you banned. Read the guidelines.


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## Acabado

cowboychik, another thing which I believe you will concede: keeping this OM on the side make of any change of OP a wasted effort, right? The marraige have no chance in hell with OM in the picture, right?
Do you believe demanding NC is not reasonable? do you believe demanding transparence (to be sure OM is gone) is not reasonable? Do you believe expecting of her to come clean about what was/is going on with OM is no reasonable? do you believe that expecting a third party, professional help to assit them on making an assessment of the situation and precribing the "medicine" is not reasonable?


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## ThreeStrikes

Witness the rationalization hamster, in action....:scratchhead:


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## just got it 55

SteelerGuy said:


> anchorwatch - I plan on doing that. What should I do if she keeps trying to communicate with me? She's sent me a couple of texts already this morning. I know that I need to fix me before my marriage can be restored. What if she comes full circle before I'm done with the program, before I'm ready? *Should I tell her that I need more time to fix me before we can work on us?*
> wilderness - perhaps I do need to be tougher on her. But I still won't file for divorce. I'll think and pray about it.


SG if you do this it will only prove to her how serious you really are

However spin it as something you can work on simultainiously


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## just got it 55

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteelerGuy View Post 
Should I talk to her again about the OM before being ready to put my foot down? 
Quoted by 3 putt
{You've talked enough without results. Time to take some action, friend }

Mario Andretti Pulls in for a pit stop and waits for fuel tires breaks and whatever else he needs 

Meanwhile he is losing the race falling further and further behind

Get the metaphor?


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## SteelerGuy

Thank you all for continuing to post on here and give me support. Despite what some of you have said responding to CBC, I think her analysis sums me up completely. Her situation is an almost mirror to my own. I believe that my wife had an EA off and on for our whole marriage, but she never crossed the line if you will of making it a true relationship, discussing desires, etc. She has wanted to leave me before, but something told her to stay. She probably should have left me years ago. I really think that she does love me. But it's like she told me again last week that my love hurts.

I think there is a lot of truth in CDC's post. Thank you for your contribution CDC. I'm still not ready to demand that she sends a NC letter. Things have deteriorated for us in the past few days. I have two months to keep working on NMMNG and get better and prove to her that I will change. I'v already given up porn and I haven't looked at that in over a month. I stopped chewing on my fingers (bad habit since I was a kid) and I have my eating issues completely under control. The main point is, I need to stop holding myself back. It's all in NMMNG if you've never met it. But I am probably 98% of that book so far and I"m a little over a third of the way through it.

But I feel better and strong right now. I have to do things for me, so I can do them for her unconditionally. You can read my updates on the NMMNG breaking free section to see my progress and history. I have to keep working on it and get myself better. I have been at NMMNG for almost a week now. Another 2 months of fixes might be enough to actually fix me forever.


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## SteelerGuy

A letter to myself:

Who do you want to be?

It is time to take a stand. Not to your wife, friends, family, children, co-workers, etc. It’s time to take a stand to you. That is where all of your problems begin and end. You are good enough. You are worth it. It’s time to stop trying to be what you think the world wants you to be and become who you want to be. So let it out. Who do you want to be?

I want to be Loving first. I want to take care of people unconditionally, not be a caretaker. I want to be a good father who is strong, confident, attentive, and gives my children what they need emotionally. I want to be a decision maker. I want to unconditionally love my wife without feeling the need to be loved in return. I want to do nice things for my wife, because I want to do them. I want to tell her every day how beautiful she is. I want to write her sweet notes because that is how I truly feel. I want to show her how strong I can be. I want to be sexy for her and stop doing things that either annoy her or make her angry.

I want to love myself. I want to know that it’s ok for things not to be perfect and for me to make mistakes. I want to know that it is ok for people to make mistakes around me.

I want to be the best Husband, Father, and Friend that I can be. I want to be reliable and accountable. I don’t want my wife to ever question how I feel about her. I want my family back.

So now you know what you want. Not what your wife wants, or what anybody else around you wants. But what you want. So now go out there and do it. Be happy with yourself every day. Not because you should be but because you choose to be. Beat your depression by being so damn happy the depression doesn’t know what to do with itself. Stop procrastinating. Get things done ahead of time so you don’t have to feel the extra stress. Work out and get in shape. Be healthy. Stop all of your bad habits. Take your daily time to pray. Don’t be afraid to take time for you. Don’t feel guilty about it. You have two months to be the best man that you can be. So do it. At least you will know that you did change yourself and you gave the life that you want your all. You will be able to hold your head high and be proud of yourself.

I am proud of myself. I have fathered 4 wonderful children. I have the most beautiful wife. I have a happy life and I choose to be happy in it.

Let me know what you think CDC.


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## LongWalk

Good that you can identify POS behaviors via CBC. Don't tell your wife that you are doing these things. Just do them. She will see. She knows your azz.

NC with OM is necessary. Why? As long as the two of them are in an emotional relationship, you will not get full support from your wife. If you don't feel up for the confrontation calculate how you are going to get the message across.

Are you working out? You have to give your wife a better looking guy.

If you think CBC reads you well, then PM her and tell her to come and give you 2 x 4's. 

Chewing your nails, a grown man? Dude. Stop that immediately. For so many women that would mean no vagina, ever.


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## SteelerGuy

Longwalk - I assume you mean 2 x 4's to the head. Yeah, I need that. I have lost 16 pounds in the past two weeks and I started working out this morning. I decided I'm going to get up at 5:00 AM everyday and take that as my me time. I'm doing it for myself and I'm not going to feel guilty about it.

And it's not chewing nails. Chewing my fingers, typically until the bleed and hurt. I never knew why and it was almost always subconscious. But I haven't done that in a while too and they are almost healed.

I'm learning so much on NMMNG. I don't have to back down over everything. I just need to realize who I am and who I should be and that everything will be ok.


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## SteelerGuy

This is crazy. The more and more I go through NMMNG, the more that I see how my wife is trying to help me. It's almost like she read the book.

I have no relationships with men. No real ones anyway and I don't have a great relationship with my dad. She's been pushing me to get some and join a men's group. Even last Sunday, she pushed for me to join a new men's group at church that I said I had interest in. I planned on doing it, but I decided to stay home instead to help out with her in the kids. As I'm reading through NMMNG, I'm beginning to see that I need to have those relationships with men and as I've become further disconnected from them, I've sunk deeper into my issues. Just wow.

She also was telling me that I need to work on my relationship with my parents. She just told me that on Saturday Night. Which means that she is still holding out some hope trying to get me better. It's also making me think that there is a chance that she is only using this OM to try to convince me to change. That thought has crossed my mind before.

I'm going to join that men's group. I'm going to start doing things for myself.


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## wilderness

SteelerGuy said:


> This is crazy. The more and more I go through NMMNG, the more that I see how my wife is trying to help me. It's almost like she read the book.
> 
> I have no relationships with men. No real ones anyway and I don't have a great relationship with my dad. She's been pushing me to get some and join a men's group. Even last Sunday, she pushed for me to join a new men's group at church that I said I had interest in. I planned on doing it, but I decided to stay home instead to help out with her in the kids. As I'm reading through NMMNG, I'm beginning to see that I need to have those relationships with men and as I've become further disconnected from them, I've sunk deeper into my issues. Just wow.
> 
> She also was telling me that I need to work on my relationship with my parents. She just told me that on Saturday Night. Which means that she is still holding out some hope trying to get me better. It's also making me think that there is a chance that she is only using this OM to try to convince me to change. That thought has crossed my mind before.
> 
> I'm going to join that men's group. I'm going to start doing things for myself.


You may have some issues, but your wife's issues are worse. She has tried to destroy your marriage and children. Don't forget that.


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## walkonmars

SG

I guess your wife bought you a new broom over the weekend to rug sweep and you're busy with doing just that. 

Get your head on straight. Stop ascribing qualities of decency that are lacking in her.


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## SteelerGuy

I know you guys have a different opinion than me. And that's ok. I'm getting stronger and I'm not feeling ashamed any more. I've accepted the fact that my marriage could be over.

But like CBC said, my wife might still love me. She just wants me to be the man that I should be.

And either way, working on my issues, doing things for myself, and making me feel like a better person will not hurt anybody. I've spent most of the last two weeks essentially kissing my wife's A$$ and feeling depressed and sorry for myself. This is the real change that I need and crave.

And like I said. If she had completely given up on me, she wouldn't be trying to correct me and fix me still. My situation is more like CBC's situation then many of you realize.


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## anchorwatch

One yard at a time...


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## wilderness

SteelerGuy said:


> I know you guys have a different opinion than me. And that's ok. I'm getting stronger and I'm not feeling ashamed any more. I've accepted the fact that my marriage could be over.
> 
> But like CBC said, my wife might still love me. She just wants me to be the man that I should be.
> 
> And either way, working on my issues, doing things for myself, and making me feel like a better person will not hurt anybody. I've spent most of the last two weeks essentially kissing my wife's A$$ and feeling depressed and sorry for myself. This is the real change that I need and crave.
> 
> And like I said. If she had completely given up on me, she wouldn't be trying to correct me and fix me still. My situation is more like CBC's situation then many of you realize.


And what about your wife's responsibility to be the woman she should be?


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## SteelerGuy

I hear you Anchowatch. I think I was going too fast last week. That was part of my problem. I was trying too hard. I was spending at least 5 or 6 hours a day working on trying to better myself. But the truth is that change takes longer. I can really feel that change starting though. I'm excited to start the men's group. I might even call one of my guy friends and see if he wants to hang out.


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## SteelerGuy

Wilderness - I hear you too. You are right. But just like CBC said, how can I expect her to be all that she can be if I'm constantly dragging her down. Her relationship still isn't appropriate. But right now, I've got to fix me. I can literally feel myself starting to feel less afraid. I'm thinking differently, and I have to keep it up.

Remember, I'm doing this for me. If I win her back in the process, then I'll be all the happier. But if I don't do this, no matter what, I will be miserable.


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## wilderness

SteelerGuy said:


> Wilderness - I hear you too. You are right. But just like CBC said, how can I expect her to be all that she can be if I'm constantly dragging her down. Her relationship still isn't appropriate. But right now, I've got to fix me. I can literally feel myself starting to feel less afraid. I'm thinking differently, and I have to keep it up.
> 
> Remember, I'm doing this for me. If I win her back in the process, then I'll be all the happier. But if I don't do this, no matter what, I will be miserable.


You are not dragging her down. She is dragging you down and has been for a long time. She is and has been engaged in an affair. To expect your spouse to not be effected by an affair is a completely unreasonable expectation. It's not going to happen. 
That's why I've never been a big fan of the 180. A person dealing with the pain of a spouse cheating on them is not going to realistically be able to be strong and happy (at least not in my experience). Not only that, an appropriate response to being cheated on is NOT to be all happy and joyful. The appropriate response is to be angry.


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## anchorwatch

Clean your side of the street first. 

Don't worry what she thinks. 

You will do better.


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## SteelerGuy

wilderness - like CBC said, it's not as simple as that. And the 180 didn't work for me because she thought I was being a jerk by dis-engaging from her. Get angry with her isn't going to fix anything right now.


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## SteelerGuy

anchorwatch - That's my plan. I'll figure she'll come to me when she's ready.


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## wilderness

SteelerGuy said:


> wilderness - like CBC said, it's not as simple as that. And the 180 didn't work for me because she thought I was being a jerk by dis-engaging from her. Get angry with her isn't going to fix anything right now.


I disagree. All of this NMMNG stuff is about taking your balls back. Don't let her beat you down anymore, man.


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## SteelerGuy

Did you read NMMNG? It's a lot more complicated then just taking your balls back. It's about learning how to effectively use your emotions in society.


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## wilderness

SteelerGuy said:


> Did you read NMMNG? It's a lot more complicated then just taking your balls back. It's about learning how to effectively use your emotions in society.


She is _cheating_ on you. Not a man in the world that can effectively manage his emotions with a wayward wife, at least not consistently over time. You are asking WAY TOO MUCH of yourself.


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## SteelerGuy

Well is time are start asking for something out of myself. I've been on cruise control through this whole marriage. If I want a chance at saving it, this is it.


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## wilderness

SteelerGuy said:


> Well is time are start asking for something out of myself. I've been on cruise control through this whole marriage. If I want a chance at saving it, this is it.


No way. You have no chance at saving the marriage as long as your wife is having an affair. You could be Casanova and it wouldn't matter. Your wife's affair is the lynchpin to your marital problems.


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## badmemory

SteelerGuy said:


> If I win her back in the process, then I'll be all the happier.


:slap::slap::slap::slap:

Sorry, I couldn't help myself.


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## SteelerGuy

I know what you guys are thinking, and how you feel about this. But I have to go with my gut on this one. I haven't gone with my gut in a long time. I'm ignoring everything else and doing what is best for me. I'm going to finish NMMNG and come out 1,000 times better on the other side.

And as far as your headslap for my comment, I have been depressed and miserable my entire life. The whole point of this process is to become a better me. For the first time in my life, I know whatever happens in the next couple months, I will be a better man and happier person for it.


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## BobSimmons

badmemory said:


> :slap::slap::slap::slap:
> 
> Sorry, I couldn't help myself.


That's uncalled for.. more of a :scratchhead:

Why people are getting upset with OP is beyond me. He's a man and has to live with the decisions he makes. Y'all have given him the advice, this is the path he has chosen. Respect him for that, because in actuality there is little much you can do.


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## SteelerGuy

Thank you Bob. And for the first time in my life, I'm taking responsibility for my actions and actually doing something about it. You don't have to agree with me, but at least I'm showing some backbone.


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## ThreeStrikes

SteelerGuy said:


> Thank you Bob. And for the first time in my life, I'm taking responsibility for my actions and actually doing something about it. You don't have to agree with me, but at least *I'm showing some backbone.*


No, you are not. You are being the typical codependent rescuer-type and accepting the blame for your wife's affair. 

CbC's post was nothing more than an attempt at rationalizing her affair. In fact, I'm thinking she's a troll. As I posted earlier, her post was nothing more than a glimpse at how effective the rationalization hamster can be. That little guy is so clever and convincing

Showing backbone is:

1.) Exposing her affair.

2.) Setting a firm boundary. The affair ends now, or D will be filed. No more contact with OM.

3.) Demanding complete transparency. No deleting of texts. No hidden emails.

4.) Marriage counselling. Of the non-religious type.

SG, we've seen your situation play out over and over. If you want to do it your way, that's your perogative. We're just trying to save you some grief and time.


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## manfromlamancha

We'll good luck in improving yourself Steeler. I really do hope you come out of this a better person and capable of coping with the fact that there is a man out there who is actively taking your wife away from you - step by step, day day by day (while you are healing). I do think that you will become a better person at the end of this but this has nothing to do with your wife seeing you for who you become. She cannot while OM is lurking in the background. No one here is suggesting that you do anything that is not right for you just as long as you maintain as near to 100% clarity as possible.


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## SteelerGuy

Thank you manfromlamancha. Maybe the right thing to do is what you say. But as many of you have suggested, I have to be strong enough for that. You can write about it all you want, but the strength has to come from inside you and my WW needs to see it to believe it. Unfortunately, I can't do anything about my situation right now. Maybe I make it through this OK. Maybe I won't. But I want to be able to stand on my own at the end of this no matter what. I'm sure you think I'm crazy, but I still love my wife. I will see this through until the end.


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## GROUNDPOUNDER

Yeah, you work on yourself. I'm sure your the first girlfriend you get after your divorce will appreciate that.

You may want to use ear plugs if you're going to keep your head in the sand for a while. You know, to keep the sand out or your ears..

So you can hear the door close when your stbxw leaves. Because 
it's not a matter of if, but of when she physically leaves you.

Good luck.


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## ThreeStrikes

SteelerGuy said:


> Thank you manfromlamancha. Maybe the right thing to do is what you say. But as many of you have suggested, I have to be strong enough for that. You can write about it all you want, but the strength has to come from inside you and my WW needs to see it to believe it. Unfortunately, I can't do anything about my situation right now. Maybe I make it through this OK. Maybe I won't. But I want to be able to stand on my own at the end of this no matter what. I'm sure you think I'm crazy, but I still love my wife. I will see this through until the end.


I'm signing off your thread. Good luck, SG.


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## nuclearnightmare

SteelerGuy said:


> Thank you manfromlamancha. Maybe the right thing to do is what you say. But as many of you have suggested, I have to be strong enough for that. You can write about it all you want, but the strength has to come from inside you and my WW needs to see it to believe it. Unfortunately, I can't do anything about my situation right now. Maybe I make it through this OK. Maybe I won't. But I want to be able to stand on my own at the end of this no matter what. I'm sure you think I'm crazy, but I still love my wife. I will see this through until the end.


I don't think you are crazy. the reason you latched on to CBC's post is that she was laying almost all the bad stuff in your marriage on you. you being a person struggling mightily with self-esteem, you pounced on it as some sort of brilliant essay on your situation, as compared to all the other posts that essentially advise to demand that she fix herself, that the malignancy in your marriage is of her making, and that basically you need to clean up all the damage she's done, while at the same time working on that self-esteem of yours.

by my counting about 195 of the posts on this thread (of those that aren't yours) take the latter view - about. About 5 posts take a much more sympathetic view toward her and are more critical of you - such as CBC. 195 - 5. that's esentially 'the vote' on here regarding where the real problem lies in your situation.

I have to tell you, if me referring to your wife as "garbage" made you feel bad, then I have no problem saying I'm sorry to you. did not mean to hurt you. But she REALLY appears to me to be one of those people that have a personality and character with almost no redeeming qualities. I.e. a person that displays such jaw-dropping degrees of selfishness, entitlement, lack of empathy, emotional abusiveness, manipulation, lying, and cunning - that one cannot do much more than get away from them. They cannot be easily 'fixed' through any kind of therapy, religious counseling or anything else. They are what they are - and they have no business being anyone's spouse or - often - anyone's parent. "Personality Disorder" is the most common term. I suggest you read up on that.

The men's group you're joining sounds promising. you might consider having the group leader read this thread, once you get to know him/trust him. if you could get some iC yourself that would be ideal. A professional you could lay all this out for - and - in particular describe your wife IN DETAIL to the counselor/therapist. and get an opinion on what's going on, especially what's going on with her.

Steelerguy, you mention depression. you sound to me like you are indeed deperssed. all the more reason to see if you can get some IC - really. Psycholigically speaking, I think you are a swimmer in a weakened state, while swimming in shark-infested waters. You really need help from people in your community - multiple individuals with differing perpectives, that can help you, advise you and treat you.


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## sandc

Print the first post of the following thread out and have your wife read it...

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/66063-before-you-decide-leave-read-my-story.html


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## JCD

SteelerGuy said:


> wilderness - like CBC said, it's not as simple as that. And the 180 didn't work for me because she thought I was being a jerk by dis-engaging from her. Get angry with her isn't going to fix anything right now.


Crud. That might be your interpretation, but it is the opposite.

The moment, the MOMENT you started to stop being there for her in the 180, the very second, she started to reach out to YOU. She was feeling a sense of loss. Her relationship was being affected and NOT on her terms.

Okay...you have found another guru in CBC. There are many paths to R. I won't pretend otherwise.

Here are my suggestions:

STOP giving her updates on your personal progress. Words in your case mean nothing because you said it all before. Besides, it makes you look weak. Just do it

Stay emotionally disconnected. Guess what? She might STILL leave you. And if you are still as needy and hopeful as you are now, it will destroy you. One thing that stuck out in your description was you would wander around the house trying to find her justnto say hello. Um...yeah...weak. Be gracious. Be civil.

But recall this EVERYTHING YOU TELL HER, your hopes, fears, weaknesses, failures, weight gain and loss, is being relayed to this other guy! Your wife is a not so secret agent to your enemy. So yeah, be careful and guarded with what you say to her and how you treat her. 

She is getting ego kibble a from you AND him! Two men telling her how wonderful she is.

She is not that wonderful. Stop treating her like she is made of gold!

And when she asks why you are no longer licking her backside, characterizing it as 'mean', tell her: "you keep telling me that you are thinking hard about leaving me and staying all cute and intimate with this other guy. I CAN'T trust you the way I used to. It would be stupid to stay emotionally vulnerable to you."

She spent 12 years paying no cost on her emotional fling. The piper needs to stop by.

Sigh...but you won't do it. Yes, you have a lot to do to make up for your bad crap in the marriage, BUT SO DOES SHE! You are not calling her LIKE A STRONG MAN WOULD on her bull pucky. She might generically wish you well...but that doesn't equate to love, hence her attention to your well being.

Just improve yourself as a dad and a man. Lower your expectations since you won't call her on her crap. Think about finding out all about your finances now and start setting cash aside not for flowers and cruises...but for other added expenditures.


----------



## SteelerGuy

sandc - thanks, but I don't think it really matters. My wife just told me again that she doesn't feel anything for me. She just doesn't think she can do it anymore. She doesn't see the changes in me that she needs and she has so much resentment built up that she doesn't think she can respond to me the right away if I do get more courageous. I'm a lost soul.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

cowboychik said:


> I'm going to say what doesn't want to be heard.
> 
> You wanna know the truth? She should have left your butt years ago. That's the truth.
> 
> You wanna change now, and come across as calm and cool towards the marriage you've been wrecking, all because you're freaked out because she's talking to a member of the opposite sex?
> 
> Honey, I've been in your wifes shoes. Hell, I am your wife for all intents and purposes. I even told my husband the same thing ur wife told you, that's she's biding her time and has a plan to leave your butt.
> 
> You aren't getting the answers you need on here, because this section of the site is aimed at for the most part, good spouses that had no idea they were being cheated on.
> You, my friend, are in the murky middle.
> 
> So you've been a lying, gluttony lovin, self-serving, snarky, demeaning, porn fiendin', jerkin' off, narcissist that his own friends have even said to her "you should divorce his booty."
> 
> Uh yeah, she's the problem. LMAO, these people know better. Marriages aren't black and white. They run the gamut of colors.
> 
> Which brings me back to my first point: If she was healthy, she would have left you years ago.
> 
> But now 'cuz she talks to OM, she's "garbage" as one person puts it. Someone even told you to grow a pair of nads. LOL, I don't doubt you have a hefty set of family jewels on ya. I mean, the love of your life has been warning you for years that you're a jerk that she wants to divorce, but you decided you weren't gonna budge and continue on your path to marriage destruction. I think you're stupid and selfish, but you've got testicles.
> 
> First of all Steelerfan, let me tell ya, exposure isn't the answer. Actually, it is if you want her to make you leave you and you look like an okay guy. If that's the game plan, then do it.
> 
> If you want to save your marriage, read on.
> 
> Let me first say that your wife still loves you. She's just royally pissed that it's taken you so long to not be a big d-ck to her.
> 
> I took 10 years of my husbands crap. I was insulted, controlled, demeaned, taken for granted, etc.
> Was it verbally abusive? Not really. He did call me a name or two, but nothing I didn't call him in those last 2 bad years.
> Physically abusive? No. Did he sexually assault me? Not if he wanted to keep his johnson.
> 
> He just treated me like crap and was one of the most selfish people I have ever met.
> 
> It didn't start out that way. 2 years of dating and the first year or marriage were Heaven. And that's what will keep a woman in a marriage. I went through 9 years or marital hell all because the first 3 years were great. Yeah, we'll stay that long. Especially if we have kids with you. But eventually, we tire. Some of us have an epiphany and walk out the next morning, some threaten for years and eventually do it (or some don't and stay miserable), some of us have EA's (me), some of us have PA's, some of us pull a Lorena Bobbit, some of us will just jump in a car and run you over like a speed bump, women do a lot of different things. But one thing is for sure, is that there is always a result.
> 
> So let me be frank, you sound like kinda an as-shole to me. Maybe not now at this second when it's finally dawned on you that she might leave you. Eventually though, even if you reconcile, this will wear off and you'll start to fade to who you really are. And who you really are is the problem here, not the OM.
> That's a symptom of the problem. And I know that because I believe your wife still loves you.
> 
> My husband was a d-ck to me. For 3 years, he was great. Not perfect, but great for me. We bickered, had our issues, but 80% of the time he was nice and decent, and 20% of the time, he could be an ass. Then came the great recession for 8 years where he was 20% ok and 80% of a jerk.
> 
> 8 years of me begging and pleading, and going to counseling, and it changed for a few weeks and then he'd revert to type. And the cycle would continue. I always told him that I'd never up and leave. That he'd never NOT know what the problem is because I wanted him to fix it. I wasn't one of those chicks that made their man guess what the issue was. I was blunt, and so was the solution. But he could only give me a week or two before he returned to the toad he was.
> 
> So finally in year 7, he could see that I wasn't caring and had withdrawn. I put on a brave face for the kids, all the while knowing that I would never want my daughters to have a marriage like man. F'g sad, right?
> 
> Finally I said it to him and it hurt him like a kick 2 the nether regions: I have a plan to get out of this marriage. It's only a matter of time; as a matter of fact, this isn't nothin' but a business plan for me to get on my feet and that's the only reason why I tolerate your sick excuse for an existence.
> 
> He acted better for less than a week. We got along well. Then not even a week after, and I don't even know how it got brought up, but he tells me "I'm not sure I can fully commit to you after what you said." He meant he couldn't commit to giving me 100% change because I said I had alternate plans.
> 
> I laughed and then left the house and was gone for 2.5 weeks. Longest we've ever been separated. Hardest part was the situation with the kids.
> 
> We talked on the phone, him and I. I told him "how dare you, after years of me begging you to change, tell me you're not sure you can fully commit to this." I talked calmly and slowly, about how wronged I felt and how that summed up the sad state of our marriage.
> 
> When I came back, I don't think I came back on even a 70% level. I was going through the motions for the kids.
> 
> A week later, I started talking to OM. I had known him for 2 years but we'd never spoken outside of our social circle. Then I bumped into him into the store. We talked for 6 months. The first 3 months, it was new and exciting. By month 4 I realized why I was doing this. I was doing this to hurt my husband as much as he had hurt me. And I was so far gone, I didn't care.
> 
> After 12 years of being with one man, I'm not sure even if we met up in a hotel room, that this could have turned to a PA. But it never got that far.
> 
> In month 6, I was nearly discovered but in the heat of the argument, I put it all on the table. Even then the H didn't really believe me. He was in denial. He saw the phone records and texts.
> 
> We spent 3 days apart. He didn't tell my family and we didn't speak. On the 4th day he asked if it was a PA and I told him no and said we could go get a lie detector done if he wanted. Just tell me when and where to be.
> 
> He said he had one more question, and that was "is it going to continue." I told him, that it was up to him.
> He basically said no, I want us to be married. He said he was scared, he didn't want to mess up and wanted to stay married.
> I remember telling him "I love you. If I didn't love you I would have left a long time ago but here's how it's gonna go: you got the first 10 years. I get the next."
> 
> And he's been making it up ever since. He has his moments, and I have to check him on that but it's expected. I'm happy and never spoken to OM again. I love my husband and our relationship now.
> It's what I've always wanted it to be: fair to the both of us.
> 
> The only issue is our sex life. After he haves his little regressions, I find myself being hesitant to just jump into our sex life again and harbor some resentment. I need to work on that.
> 
> I wandered in this side of the forum and found your post, which I identified with that I had to sign up.
> 
> While I think that some of these people are helpful, I think your case is slightly challenging and since one size fits all, I wouldn't start a prescription for strep throat on the advice of someone who has just had the flu, if you know what I mean. They may hurt you more than help you.
> 
> From her point of view, this "fixing" and "I'm getting healthy for myself" nonsense is just BS. She's been asking you to do this for years, and this is the solution.
> 
> LOL, it reminds me of my sister and her ex. Her ex was a real douche when they'd fight and she'd leave to get some fresh air. He'd yell at her "fine, leave, I don't care. I'm over you already." When he noticed that didn't work and she was leaving more, he called her and said "just remember that I always loved you. If you have to leave, please know that it's your choice but I never asked you to go. Please remember me that way." She said "ok" and hung up. Five minutes later he called her freaking out again. It was just a pompous ploy, one that he would later use to say "I'm healthier than you." But LOL, that wasn't the truth.
> 
> ^Forgive all the typos, it's 3:30am and I have one eye open.
> Let me add good luck to you steelerfan. I hope you get your act together. I believe your wife loves you, you just need to make things right.



So you kinda identify with his wife, do you? Wait 'til you are better rested. Then read each of his posts, about what his wife is saying, what she's doing. Then tell us if you really want to be part of her 'sisterhood'


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## frigginlost

SteelerGuy said:


> sandc - thanks, but I don't think it really matters. My wife just told me again that she doesn't feel anything for me. She just doesn't think she can do it anymore. She doesn't see the changes in me that she needs and she has so much resentment built up that she doesn't think she can respond to me the right away if I do get more courageous. I'm a lost soul.


Dude, no offense, but nut the f*ck up. She is telegraphing exactly what she wants from you, but you refuse to see it. She knows her lap is warm because you will always be sitting in it. 180 that woman and save what self respect you have left. We all have done it...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## terrence4159

i was going to stay out of this thread but all i can say is this is like a horror movie we all know the killer is in the basement and we keep yelling dont go into the basement and guess what steeler is running into the basement, good luck


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## manfromlamancha

ThreeStrikes said:


> No, you are not. You are being the typical codependent rescuer-type and accepting the blame for your wife's affair.
> 
> CbC's post was nothing more than an attempt at rationalizing her affair. In fact, I'm thinking she's a troll. As I posted earlier, her post was nothing more than a glimpse at how effective the rationalization hamster can be. That little guy is so clever and convincing
> 
> Showing backbone is:
> 
> 1.) Exposing her affair.
> 
> 2.) Setting a firm boundary. The affair ends now, or D will be filed. No more contact with OM.
> 
> 3.) Demanding complete transparency. No deleting of texts. No hidden emails.
> 
> 4.) Marriage counselling. Of the non-religious type.
> 
> SG, we've seen your situation play out over and over. If you want to do it your way, that's your perogative. We're just trying to save you some grief and time.


Look Steeler this is not a "I told you so" post. Take the very solid advice given above here - if you have nothing else to lose than why not just try this. I guarantee you that whatever the outcome is as a result of this action, it will be the right one for you and will definitely make things better. You have nothing to lose so just do it!


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## wilderness

SteelerGuy said:


> sandc - thanks, but I don't think it really matters. My wife just told me again that she doesn't feel anything for me. She just doesn't think she can do it anymore. She doesn't see the changes in me that she needs and she has so much resentment built up that she doesn't think she can respond to me the right away if I do get more courageous. I'm a lost soul.


What kind of church do you go to? If you believe on Jesus Christ, you are NOT a lost soul. Your wife appears to be the lost one.
Stop making excuses for her.


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## LongWalk

SteelerGuy said:


> sandc - thanks, but I don't think it really matters. My wife just told me again that she doesn't feel anything for me. She just doesn't think she can do it anymore. She doesn't see the changes in me that she needs and she has so much resentment built up that she doesn't think she can respond to me the right away if I do get more courageous. I'm a lost soul.


If you were to become courageous, that would be a change that she has not seen. That would be a challenge for her and she would have to look inside herself to decide how to respond.

Carry out the self improvement program you are creating in your own mind. That you are going to implement regardless.

But do I understand you right, you will not push for divorce because you don't want to risk divorce to save your marriage, correct? Furthermore, you are not going to demand NC because you have consequences short of divorce as a response, right?

First post from you:



> Everything would get like that until I would just blow up out of frustration *You do not blow up anymore. True or false? * or she would get mad at me for never caring enough to change.*You have your eye on the ball now. Or?* I"m not too overweight and I try to exercise every now and then. *You need to get in really good shape. You have to have a body that your wife will desire. Even lifting weights hard once a week will change your appearance. But that requires pain, good pain. Embrace it.*About two months ago, my wife started working out a lot and she has done really well. I think she did it to get my attention more, but I'm not sure. *She did it so that she could attract other men, not you. She wants them to pant over her, fulfill her sexually and emotionally.
> 
> You can steal this woman away from her dream lover by being ready to walk away and be happy. Bagdon did it when his wife had already checked out. She was probably self satisfying while fantasizing about other men. She clearly stated that she had ceased to love him. As long as you start running towards your goal you have shot.*
> 
> Overall, I behaved this way because I was selfish and never put her needs first. I am trying to change that, and I truly am putting her needs first right now. But I don't know if it's enough.
> 
> You need to put your needs first. Your need is to be be the person you want to be. That person will be much more attractive to women. Fulfilling your wife's reasonable expectations is doable for the man you want to be. You do things for her because it is for you. You want her to recognize that you are not doing it because you are her beta servant drone, but a mature man who has certain standards to meet. Your standards, not anyone else's.
> 
> If you have some sort of shıtty chore to do. Whip through it, so that you impress yourself.


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## SteelerGuy

Longwalk - That was the best post I have seen in a while. Thank you. I think you summed up exactly where I am at right now. I'm just struggling with my emotions spilling over right now. They've been bottled up for so long and it's so intense right now that it's been a challenge.

I've finished reading NMMNG and I'm starting to go through it for a second time. My depression feelings come in and out, but overall it's getting better. I've lost 16.5 pounds in the last couple of weeks so far, and I'm getting a lot healthier. My goal is to be under 200 before the end of November. That's a goal that I've been searching for 8 years now.

I'm going to keep bettering myself. I need to keep being honest with myself and everyone around me.

As far as the other stuff goes, I don't yell anymore. She can see my determination and commitment. She just needs to see the changes.


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## JCD

SteelerGuy said:


> Longwalk - That was the best post I have seen in a while. Thank you. I think you summed up exactly where I am at right now. I'm just struggling with my emotions spilling over right now. They've been bottled up for so long and it's so intense right now that it's been a challenge.
> 
> I've finished reading NMMNG and I'm starting to go through it for a second time. My depression feelings come in and out, but overall it's getting better. I've lost 16.5 pounds in the last couple of weeks so far, and I'm getting a lot healthier. My goal is to be under 200 before the end of November. That's a goal that I've been searching for 8 years now.
> 
> I'm going to keep bettering myself. I need to keep being honest with myself and everyone around me.
> 
> As far as the other stuff goes, I don't yell anymore. She can see my determination and commitment. She just needs to see the changes.


Here is a tactic my wife used. She knew I was locked into my 'Fog' and no, I didn't love her *at that time.* As CBC said, we had *both* done a lot of damage to the marriage and it was all gone. Does this sound familiar?

So she started asking questions about my friend. What we talked about. How often we chatted. Occasionally, she asked or said something which raised doubts in my head about the intentions of my friend.

When I had to reflect...when I had to hear the pain and have my relationship exposed to the light of day...it changed it.

I dropped her to save my marriage because *I* wanted to drop her. I had little faith in the future. I thought this would be a failure. But I owed it to my wife to give everything.

So far, it worked.

But let me tell you, she already loves him in some manner. She probably always will...to a small degree. He never screwed her and he was probably always nice to her. Why WOULD she not like that?

BUT...the important lesson is you can get her to love you again. Change. Stop talking about it. Constant communication. If she starts getting defensive when you ask the OCCASSIONAL question, back off...and then ask again a few days later. Let her know she is on the hook for answers so she feels uncomfortable with the hiding.

When you get your grubby fingerprints all over her nice clean fantasy, it changes things.

One last thing: getting her to love you again will take MONTHS. Seriously. MONTHS if not years. So you had damn well better have a realistic timeline going in.


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## LongWalk

Bagdon got up at 5:30 every morning to work out. His wife thought it was a fake trick at first. He kept doing it. I am not saying you need to get up so early but you need to energize yourself by working out. 

Cut out carbohydrates for most part. Bagdon did not lift weights he just did cardio but he lost a lot of weight, too, I think.

I agree with JCD you have to be prepared for months of hard work. And it can all be undone with a few stupid arguments, so yes the going will be tough now.

Basically you know what to do. Keep your mouth shut. Imagine the you that you want to be, not just the you you think your wife wants. No, think about the men and women in life whom you admire. Act as you think they would and as they would expect you to. The people you admire who liked you and believed in you.

If you think about how you may have failed them, ask yourself if they could and would believe that you could change. The answer is they would be uncertain perhaps but if you were doing it, they would be happy for you.

You have to take pride in yourself. Get your sense of humor in play everyday. I am sure that if you joke successfully and appropriately with your kids, that will reach your wife's heart quickly. It won't make her want you right off. But it will buy you time and earn you emotional capital.

Ask Bagdon to coach you.

PM Machiavelli


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## SteelerGuy

This is basically where I am at. I started getting up between 5:00 and 5:30 every day so I can either work out, study NMMNG, get some things done etc. I've lost 18 total pounds now in the last 16 days and I can already see a big difference. I'll keep going until I reach at least the 200 pound mark.

I've started reading NMMNG a second time and I'm going to keep going through it until it all sinks in. I know there is a lot of hard work ahead of me. I have to be strong so that none of my issues comes racing back in. I have to prepare ahead of them.


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## GROUNDPOUNDER

SteelerGuy said:


> This is basically where I am at. I started getting up between 5:00 and 5:30 every day so I can either work out, study NMMNG, get some things done etc. I've lost 18 total pounds now in the last 16 days and I can already see a big difference. I'll keep going until I reach at least the 200 pound mark.
> 
> I've started reading NMMNG a second time and I'm going to keep going through it until it all sinks in. I know there is a lot of hard work ahead of me. I have to be strong so that none of my issues comes racing back in. I have to prepare ahead of them.


I know I can be a hard a$$, but I am routing for you.

You're still hurting, but you're also still moving forward and that's the most important thing right now. You can only control yourself.


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## SteelerGuy

I appreciate the support Groundpounder. The hurting is getting a little easier to control. It honestly gets the worst when it seems like things could be done forever. Unfortunately, just like me, my WW seems to be going through an emotional roller coaster on her side.

When I talked to her last night, she said she spent all day going through all of the divorce scriptures in the Bible searching for an answer. She said she was waiting for a sign from God on what to do, but it didn't come yesterday. She said maybe she just isn't ready for it yet.


----------



## sandc

SteelerGuy said:


> I appreciate the support Groundpounder. The hurting is getting a little easier to control. It honestly gets the worst when it seems like things could be done forever. Unfortunately, just like me, my WW seems to be going through an emotional roller coaster on her side.
> 
> When I talked to her last night, she said she spent all day going through all of the divorce scriptures in the Bible searching for an answer. She said she was waiting for a sign from God on what to do, but it didn't come yesterday. She said maybe she just isn't ready for it yet.


She's going to have to really twist the scriptures to get them to allow for a divorce in her case. Unless you cheated on her, the Bible does not allow for divorce.


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## SteelerGuy

Yeah, I know. I'm sure she is fighting that one. I know that she views the Porn as cheating, which it kind of is, but I don't think Biblically that is grounds for divorce. I've never wavered for one second other than that. No EA, no flirting, nothing. She said before when she considered leaving, she felt God wake her up in a sense and tell her not to leave. She is waiting for that again.


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## SteelerGuy

I have a quick question. Like I mentioned earlier, I've started to get up between 5:00 and 5:30 every day for me time, some of the time working out. My wife has told me twice in the 3 times in the last two weeks that she wants to get ready for a 5K on New Years Day. This morning she told me that she needs to start practicing for it and the only time that she will be able to is in the morning. I'm thinking this is partially a test. How do you think I should handle this?


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## nogutsnoglory

SteelerGuy said:


> I have a quick question. Like I mentioned earlier, I've started to get up between 5:00 and 5:30 every day for me time, some of the time working out. My wife has told me twice in the 3 times in the last two weeks that she wants to get ready for a 5K on New Years Day. This morning she told me that she needs to start practicing for it and the only time that she will be able to is in the morning. I'm thinking this is partially a test. How do you think I should handle this?


by taking care of your needs. why can she not train, what does it have to do with you.


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## SteelerGuy

She didn't specifically say that it has to do anything with me. But if she gets up early to train, I would probably have to help her get up and I would have to stay and watch the baby so she could go running.


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## nogutsnoglory

SteelerGuy said:


> She didn't specifically say that it has to do anything with me. But if she gets up early to train, I would probably have to help her get up and I would have to stay and watch the baby so she could go running.


When do you get you time? sounds more like she is trying to stop your improvement. If my S was dropping needed weight and bettering himself, the last thing I would do is come up with a reason to stop him from doing it.
Might want to ponder that a bit. There is a method to her madness and it sounds like she wants to control IMO.

You tell me.


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## nogutsnoglory

SteelerGuy said:


> She didn't specifically say that it has to do anything with me. But if she gets up early to train, I would probably have to help her get up and I would have to stay and watch the baby so she could go running.


Tell her she can run from 5-530 and from 5:30 - 6 you get to do what you want. or vice versa.


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## SteelerGuy

That could be part of it. But I also feel like part of it could be judging how I respond to the situation.


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## SteelerGuy

That's a good solution. Thanks for the advice.


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## nogutsnoglory

SteelerGuy said:


> That's a good solution. Thanks for the advice.


if she fights this solution, let her know she can get up as early as she wants, but you get one half hour in the morning for you. no negotiating that.


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## SteelerGuy

I agree. That is my me time and I've really been enjoying that time. I've been taking a few minutes to read a book that I usually would feel bad about and either sneak after bedtime. Now I can just enjoy it without my WW wondering why I am staying up late. Plus, I know the workouts are important.


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## SteelerGuy

I just remembered something else that happened last week when I was doing the 180. The second day that I did it, my WW asked me if I wanted to leave her. I said no, and she said that while I am changing that I might find out that I don't like her. I know that she has abandonment issues that she said that she's worked through, but deep down inside she's afraid of being left too.


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## LongWalk

Don't let her sabotage your workout time. However, if you can arrange for one of you to do evening workouts that is also a solution. But be alpha about it. If your wife is getting to shape for this 5k, you can joke that if she runs a good time you'll give her thorough massage. 

How old are you kids? Have go back and read your thread intro.



> 4 children together with the oldest being 6.


 No wonder she doesn't want divorce. If she is a single SAHM, her life will suck big time.


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## SteelerGuy

Yeah, that would certainly be a challenge. Plus she said that she would have to committ to homeschooling since we don't want our kids in public schools. I won't let her take my time. I didn't get as sad today, but I still need to work on being more positive.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

Would you trust her to homeschool 4 children?


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## sandc

SteelerGuy said:


> Yeah, that would certainly be a challenge. Plus she said that she would have to committ to homeschooling since we don't want our kids in public schools. I won't let her take my time. I didn't get as sad today, but I still need to work on being more positive.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Speaking as a homeschooler, I'm curious why you want to homeschool your children? Is it more for religious reason or more for educational reasons?


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## SteelerGuy

Yes. I would trust her. We've considered it before. She is a good woman and a great mother and she has her bachelors in early childhood education.

We would do it for education and religious reasons.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sandc

I understood it would be for both reasons but which weighs MORE heavily? I'll assume religious for now. You guys do need some spiritual counselling. If you have not cheated on her, there is really no scripture that allows for divorce. If you have religious convictions deep enough to home school then she must understand this point. A (good) pastor would ask her for her scriptural basis for wanting to leave you. Is she going to teach your children that it's okay to ignore the Bible when you're unhappy?


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## SteelerGuy

I would say more heavily on the religious side. Right now my 6 year old is in a Christian School and we have plans to send all of them there if we can afford it. We do have a problem with the curriculum being pushed on the kids, but a big part of the issue is we don't want to deal with messages from school conflicting with our religion.

From everything we've discussed over the years, she won't go to counseling.

I don't know about the last question. I know she is definitely struggling with that part. I saw that she had her bible out again today, so I'm sure she was going through those scriptures again.


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## SteelerGuy

I would say more heavily on the religious side. Right now my 6 year old is in a Christian School and we have plans to send all of them there if we can afford it. We do have a problem with the curriculum being pushed on the kids, but a big part of the issue is we don't want to deal with messages from school conflicting with our religion.

From everything we've discussed over the years, she won't go to counseling.

I don't know about the last question. I know she is definitely struggling with that part. I saw that she had her bible out again today, so I'm sure she was going through those scriptures again.


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## SteelerGuy

Well I stood up to her tonight. She came home all upset because the wrench light turned on in the car and it said the oil was at 15%. Also, she has been complaining that the engine has been misfiring a little bit and she mentioned that again. I started to mention a notice that we received from Honda saying that there is a potential issue and she started yelling at me that I should've changed the oil a week ago when we bought it and that I was ruining the car and now we have a big problem. She also interrupted me while I was talking. I went over to her and told her that I don't appreciate her talking to me that way and interrupting me and that she didn't even give me a chance to say what I wanted to say. She followed up by yelling that girls want there cars to be taken care and I need to take care of it. I said that's fine, but give me a chance before you start yelling at me. Then she went up stairs and followed behind with our 2 year old to get him ready for bed.

She seemed calmed down later, but for the first time in a long time, I told her how I felt and how I should be treated. I was afraid to do it, but I did it.

And on a side note, the wrench was only to say that it was almost time to change the oil. The car should be fine, but I'll still call the dealer about the other issue.


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## Nucking Futs

SteelerGuy said:


> Well I stood up to her tonight. She came home all upset because the wrench light turned on in the car and it said the oil was at 15%. Also, she has been complaining that the engine has been misfiring a little bit and she mentioned that again. I started to mention a notice that we received from Honda saying that there is a potential issue and she started yelling at me that I should've changed the oil a week ago when we bought it and that I was ruining the car and now we have a big problem. She also interrupted me while I was talking. I went over to her and told her that I don't appreciate her talking to me that way and interrupting me and that she didn't even give me a chance to say what I wanted to say. She followed up by yelling that girls want there cars to be taken care and I need to take care of it. I said that's fine, but give me a chance before you start yelling at me. Then she went up stairs and followed behind with our 2 year old to get him ready for bed.
> 
> She seemed calmed down later, but for the first time in a long time, I told her how I felt and how I should be treated. I was afraid to do it, but I did it.
> 
> And on a side note, the wrench was only to say that it was almost time to change the oil. The car should be fine, but I'll still call the dealer about the other issue.


I can see why you're so desperate to save your marriage. She seems to be a real peach.


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## tom67

Nucking Futs said:


> I can see why you're so desperate to save your marriage. She seems to be a real peach.


:banghead::banghead:

I was at a funeral today I took my d the kids 2 out of 3 sons are divorced I am as well their kids and mine are doing fine and so are they.
I cried not only because of their fathers death but really as to how all their children-and mine- they are all doing great, at least that's how I see it.


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## SteelerGuy

Nucking Futs said:


> I can see why you're so desperate to save your marriage. She seems to be a real peach.


Clearly she is not like that all the time. I talked to her again this morning and I told her that she didn't apologize for the way that she spoke to me and I didn't appreciate it. She sad that she was mad and emotional last night and that is why she responded that way. She said she doesn't feel like I'm taking care of the car or her and that is why she got mad. She also said that I didn't respond quick enough so she thought I was blowing it off.

I told her that wasn't the case and she interrupted me when she blew up. I told her that if I reacted that way, she would have called me the biggest jerk in the world. She said that she understands why I feel that way, but she wasn't sure if the car was going to stop working last night or not and until its fixed then she will be mad.

I think it is still a step in the right direction. I felt the fear again this morning, but I still brought it up. By the end of the morning will still left on good terms. Maybe she respects me a little more.

And when things are strained between us, things are really good. That is what I am aiming for. If she yelled at me not stop while I was doing my best, then I would concede that it wouldn't work.


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## SteelerGuy

And the proof is in the pudding. That last thing that she said before we dropped the topic this morning is that she wasn't there yet, meaning she wasn't ready to say she was sorry.

I just got a text from her after she just got back home from dropping the kids off at school, and she said that she was sorry.


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## phillybeffandswiss

So, the proof is that she couldn't apologize to your face and sent you a text? If you can't say it to my face, don't say it at all, but that is just me. My sole opinion. It isn't proof to me.

People are different blah blah blah go.....now.

Good luck to you, and I hope you work it out because that is what you want.


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## SteelerGuy

phillybeffandswiss said:


> So, the proof is that she couldn't apologize to your face and sent you a text? If you can't say it to my face, don't say it at all, but that is just me. My sole opinion. It isn't proof to me.
> 
> People are different blah blah blah go.....now.
> 
> Good luck to you, and I hope you work it out because that is what you want.


I understand that thought. But there is a different way you can look at it. She was still angry and defensive at first, but I stood strong and showed my resolve. I told her I wasn't going to accept that any more. Since that is not the response she is used to, she didn't know how to respond at first. Change takes time for both people after all.

But when she thought about it later, she started to feel guilty, and everything sunk in. That's when she apologized. She also said that the car ran fine today.

I still think it is a step in the right direction.


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## phillybeffandswiss

SteelerGuy said:


> I understand that thought. But there is a different way you can look at it. She was still angry and defensive at first, but I stood strong and showed my resolve. I told her I wasn't going to accept that any more. Since that is not the response she is used to, she didn't know how to respond at first. Change takes time for both people after all.
> 
> But when she thought about it later, she started to feel guilty, and everything sunk in. That's when she apologized. She also said that the car ran fine today.
> 
> I still think it is a step in the right direction.


Look, convince yourself not me. There are a billion ways to excuse your wife for her actions. If you feel you are at fault and forgive her, more power to you. As we see on this board with anger, trolls and lies anyone can say something behind a text, phone or keyboard. It takes real courage to apologize face to face and see the real visceral reaction. Yes, this include skype or any other face time app. I stated my opinion which disagrees with yours.


> Change takes time for both people after all.


Yes it does. So, why are you ecstatic that she apologized, out of your face, a few minutes later? IMO it isn't a step or a change until more happens.


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## sandc

SteelerGuy said:


> Clearly she is not like that all the time. I talked to her again this morning and I told her that she didn't apologize for the way that she spoke to me and I didn't appreciate it. She sad that she was mad and emotional last night and that is why she responded that way. She said she doesn't feel like I'm taking care of the car or her and that is why she got mad. She also said that I didn't respond quick enough so she thought I was blowing it off.
> 
> I told her that wasn't the case and she interrupted me when she blew up. I told her that if I reacted that way, she would have called me the biggest jerk in the world. She said that she understands why I feel that way, but she wasn't sure if the car was going to stop working last night or not and until its fixed then she will be mad.
> 
> I think it is still a step in the right direction. I felt the fear again this morning, but I still brought it up. By the end of the morning will still left on good terms. Maybe she respects me a little more.
> 
> And when things are strained between us, things are really good. That is what I am aiming for. If she yelled at me not stop while I was doing my best, then I would concede that it wouldn't work.


Your wife is a master blameshifter.




SteelerGuy said:


> And the proof is in the pudding. That last thing that she said before we dropped the topic this morning is that she wasn't there yet, meaning she wasn't ready to say she was sorry.
> 
> I just got a text from her after she just got back home from dropping the kids off at school, and she said that she was sorry.


That doesn't count. Make her say it to your face. Not in text, not via email. Tell her you want to HEAR her say it.


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## Tron

sandc said:


> Your wife is a master blameshifter.


:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

Steelerguy, if you take anything out of that whole exchange last night, this should be it.


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## SteelerGuy

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Look, convince yourself not me. There are a billion ways to excuse your wife for her actions. If you feel you are at fault and forgive her, more power to you. As we see on this board with anger, trolls and lies anyone can say something behind a text, phone or keyboard. It takes real courage to apologize face to face and see the real visceral reaction. Yes, this include skype or any other face time app. I stated my opinion which disagrees with yours.
> Yes it does. So, why are you ecstatic that she apologized, out of your face, a few minutes later? IMO it isn't a step or a change until more happens.


I don't feel like I'm at fault. I know that she was wrong to yell at me and get carried away, and I was proud of myself for standing up to her. She needs to see more of that so she will start to respect me.

And I agree that it needs to be to my face. But I know that it was hard for her to say I'm sorry in the first place, even through a text message. I think that's officially the third time that she has said she was sorry our whole marriage.

But it's hard for her to say she is sorry if I'm saying it first.


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## sandc

Steeler, to be honest, if I were you I would see an attorney and have divorce papers drawn up. Afterwards, have a talk with her and tell her "Honey, you're absolutely right. I'm no good for you. I think you need to be free to find your own happiness. I need a few days to plan my next steps. I'll be in touch." Then drop the divorce papers in front of her and walk out and go dark. Go out of town or stay with friends for a couple of days and turn your phone off. 

*I AM NOT SAYING TO MOVE OUT.*

Just go away for a few days, visit friends, go camping, whatever. Just do not answer your phone, emails, text nothing. Show her that you are not afraid of losing her. Show her that you love her but you don't NEED her.

I know, the kids, whatever. She'll need to figure out what to do with the kids if you guys get divorced. Think of it as helping her.

Bottom line, if you want to save your marrige you have to be willing to lose it. I think she'll have an epiphany while you're gone.


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## SteelerGuy

sandc said:


> Steeler, to be honest, if I were you I would see an attorney and have divorce papers drawn up. Afterwards, have a talk with her and tell her "Honey, you're absolutely right. I'm no good for you. I think you need to be free to find your own happiness. I need a few days to plan my next steps. I'll be in touch." Then drop the divorce papers in front of her and walk out and go dark. Go out of town or stay with friends for a couple of days and turn your phone off.
> 
> *I AM NOT SAYING TO MOVE OUT.*
> 
> Just go away for a few days, visit friends, go camping, whatever. Just do not answer your phone, emails, text nothing. Show her that you are not afraid of losing her. Show her that you love her but you don't NEED her.
> 
> I know, the kids, whatever. She'll need to figure out what to do with the kids if you guys get divorced. Think of it as helping her.
> 
> Bottom line, if you want to save your marriage you have to be willing to lose it. I think she'll have an epiphany while you're gone.


I just don't see this accomplishing anything good. She would be crushed. I honestly think this would ruin things forever. I'm sure you guys have seen and heard different things. But I know my wife. Threatening divorce would have the opposite intended effect. If I did what you suggest, she would be gone with the kids before I ever got back.


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## Nucking Futs

SteelerGuy said:


> I just don't see this accomplishing anything good. She would be crushed. I honestly think this would ruin things forever. I'm sure you guys have seen and heard different things. But I know my wife. Threatening divorce would have the opposite intended effect. If I did what you suggest, she would be gone with the kids before I ever got back.


Why are you here? You have all the answers, and you know everyone here is wrong, so why do you bother to post here? Are you planning to rub it in our faces when your "plan" works and your wife becomes a wife in deed rather than just in name? What do you get out of posting here? You're taking no advice, you're either not reading any other threads or you're so sure that your situation is totally unique that the lessons to be learned by other peoples experiences just don't apply to you.

I've got some bad news for you sunshine. Your situation isn't unique, it's practically textbook. Your wifes behavior isn't unique, it's all too common. Your story has been repeated in this site hundreds of times, and going about it the way you're going about it is dooming your marriage. And if you don't nut up and start taking this excellent advice you're being given there's a good chance that the pathetic excuse for an example you're setting for your children is going to doom their future relationships too.


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## jack.c

Nucking Futs said:


> Why are you here? You have all the answers, and you know everyone here is wrong, so why do you bother to post here? Are you planning to rub it in our faces when your "plan" works and your wife becomes a wife in deed rather than just in name? What do you get out of posting here? You're taking no advice, you're either not reading any other threads or you're so sure that your situation is totally unique that the lessons to be learned by other peoples experiences just don't apply to you.
> 
> I've got some bad news for you sunshine. Your situation isn't unique, it's practically textbook. Your wifes behavior isn't unique, it's all too common. Your story has been repeated in this site hundreds of times, and going about it the way you're going about it is dooming your marriage. And if you don't nut up and start taking this excellent advice you're being given there's a good chance that the pathetic excuse for an example you're setting for your children is going to doom their future relationships too.



:iagree::iagree:

also.... its incredibile the way he thinks how that little up-front for the car makes her believe that he man-upped! wow.... just wow!


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## SteelerGuy

Nucking Futs said:


> Why are you here? You have all the answers, and you know everyone here is wrong, so why do you bother to post here? Are you planning to rub it in our faces when your "plan" works and your wife becomes a wife in deed rather than just in name? What do you get out of posting here? You're taking no advice, you're either not reading any other threads or you're so sure that your situation is totally unique that the lessons to be learned by other peoples experiences just don't apply to you.
> 
> I've got some bad news for you sunshine. Your situation isn't unique, it's practically textbook. Your wifes behavior isn't unique, it's all too common. Your story has been repeated in this site hundreds of times, and going about it the way you're going about it is dooming your marriage. And if you don't nut up and start taking this excellent advice you're being given there's a good chance that the pathetic excuse for an example you're setting for your children is going to doom their future relationships too.


I'm here to get help and guidance. Just because I don't want to run off and file divorce doesn't make me wrong. Every situation is unique, and I have told you guys countless times that I will welcome all advice except filing for divorce. That doesn't make my opinion pointless and that doesn't mean that I will fail. If me not wanting to file for divorce means that you don't want to help me, then fine. Unless my wife runs off and starts sleeping around, I won't file for divorce.


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## sandc

I wish you well, Steeler.


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## SteelerGuy

sandc said:


> I wish you well, Steeler.


Thank you. I appreciate you trying to help, but that's not where I'm willing to go.


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## Knobbers

SteelerGuy said:


> I have a quick question. Like I mentioned earlier, I've started to get up between 5:00 and 5:30 every day for me time, some of the time working out. My wife has told me twice in the 3 times in the last two weeks that she wants to get ready for a 5K on New Years Day. This morning she told me that she needs to start practicing for it and the only time that she will be able to is in the morning. I'm thinking this is partially a test. How do you think I should handle this?


I thought you were the selfish one???

Man, this woman continues to pee in your Cheerios. This might be the most frustrating thread I have ever read here, and that's crazy considering what I have read.

Best of luck friend, I think you will need it. You are leaving way too much to chance and not taking the bull by the horns. Some things in marriage we can't control, but other things we HAVE to control. You are showing little control of anything and I wish that wasn't the case.

Did you notice that the best response you got from your wife was two days into the 180??? So you go back to being a doormat??? Makes me sad for you man, you don't have a chance to fix things as long as this continues.

You have got amazing advice from 98 percent of the people who have tried to help you, yet you cling to the advice of the 2 percent? You are making your bed, I hope you learn from it. It might help you in future relationships, because I don't have any hope for your current one. Unless your standards are to be a cuckolding doormat that is led around by his nose, from a woman who constantly has you believing you are one misstep away from her ditching you.

I'd rather be single myself. Put less faith in god and more in yourself, that is when you will see positive changes. God has bigger things to worry about, like pediatric cancer and childhood starvation. If he hasn't solved them problems, why would he solve yours? I'm not anti religion or god, but you have to help yourself before he can step in and assist.

Once again, best of luck.


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## Tron

SteelerGuy said:


> Thank you. I appreciate you trying to help, but that's not where I'm willing to go.


Thing is, it would be better for you if she thought that you were willing. Otherwise she really has no incentive to change anything...unless you get yourself a girlfriend.


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## carmen ohio

Dear SteelerGuy,

Here are two Bible verses that you might want to ponder:

_"Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you."_ (Matthew 7:6)

_"Hear now this, O foolish people, and without understanding; which have eyes, and see not; which have ears, and hear not."_ (Jeremiah 5:21)

The first verse instructs us not waste our time repeatedly pointing out the errors of people who resolutely refuse to repent and do what is right; the implication being that, when faced with such a response, we should eventually move on and help others who are open to the Word. At some point, you need to consider whether your repeated attempts to bring your WW to an understanding and acceptance of her waywardness is bearing fruit and, if it is not, to consider other responses, including divorce, lest you be destroyed emotionally in the futile attempt to save her.

The second is a warning to those who receive wisdom but mistake it for folly because they refuse to believe what they see with their own eyes and hear with their own ears. In your case, you are rejecting the wisdom of a group of people who have lived through your problem and come to understand how best to deal with it. Of course, it's your marriage and your life and, therefore, you must be the one who decides what to do. However, when so many knowledgeable people tell you that you are going about it wrongly, you would be well advised to seriously consider their advice before rejecting it.

Wishing you the best possible outcome.


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## azteca1986

Not posted for a few days. My thoughts from the last few pages:

1. It's got a little hostile in here

2. Standing up for yourself when you were interrupted is good. It's disrespectful and you shouldn't stand for it. You didn't.

3. It's a shame you latched on to CBC's post. You are not her ex-husband and she oughtn't address you in such a manner. I had a comment for her, that I thought better of. 

Here's why its a shame: You are responsible for some faults in your marriage. But you can't get your marriage back on track whilst your wife is having an affair.

These are the four traits I consider most important for my good friends to have; Honesty, Integrity, Loyalty and Bravery. The more important you are to me the greater the need to demonstrate these basic traits of friendship. How does your WW measure up? Do you see how little you are willing to accept from your life partner, OP?

4. You have stopped referring to her as your 'wife' and started using WW. Good.
----------------------
There was a complete lack of surprise when your WW started contacting her boyfriend again. A twelve year affair does not end overnight even with the best will in the world.

I won't repeat the good advice in the thread. I just hope you can get yourself to the point where you are at least prepared to divorce your WW. You haven't got a hope otherwise, I feel.

Is WW still in contact with her boyfriend?

Ps. Gentleman, SG is making progress. Baby steps I agree, but progress all the same.


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## firefly789

Steeler, I am glad that you are listening to everyone and still posting. I know you are trying your best in a difficult situation. Here is my concern.

You continue to work on yourself with NMMNG. It seems that you feel if you can only become a better man/husband you will succeed in your marriage. You continue to be introspective and try to find any flaw in yourself that you can improve upon. Your focus is so much on yourself that you are not looking at your marriage as a whole and seeing that there is a sickness within the marriage. 

Your wife has had an ongoing EA most of the marriage, does not treat you with respect, and is not sure she even wants to work on the marriage with you. I understand you not wanting to file for divorce, but you still need to do something to shake this situation up. I think it is great that you are getting more fit and that you stood up for yourself in the face of undeserved blame over the car. These are good steps.

However, these are just little tiny tremors. Your marriage needs a major earthquake to make your wife come to terms with what is important to her. Is she going to carry on in her EA and continue to not put her whole heart and effort into the marriage? Or, is she going to get shaken up and realize what is important to her. It is times of crisis where people realize what their priorities in life are. Right now, she is coasting along. If you are not going to file for D, what are you going to do to shake up your wife? You need a bigger game plan to save your marriage.


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## azteca1986

Are you still with us SteelerGuy?


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## phillybeffandswiss

His biggest problem, to me, is it feels like he is changing for her and the marriage not to better himself.


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## helpandadvice

I have only read a couple threads and already see where this is going because I said the same freaking things.

What she is doing is not your fault what so ever. All marriages have theirups and downs and is no reason for her to do 9r say the things she is doing. Nothing wrong with porn and masturbating. I do it we all do it. My wife and I used to watch it together. Tell your wife to join you or get over it. This. being overly nice crap will not work. Tell her to straighten up or get out. Will save you so much heart ache.

Then again do not listen to me. I am finalizing my d now and hate women.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## helpandadvice

I do agree you should try your absolute best to work this out. To me it would not have mattered what my wife actually did. All I every wanted was her to be sorry, remorseful and want to work this out. I did not get any of those and changed to just want to try and fix things. I still never had her wanting to even try.

If you have any of these things, do your best and have no regrets. 

FIND A GOOD COUNSELOR. MINE HAS GOTTEN ME THROUGH MY MESS.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SteelerGuy

I'm still here. I'm just sorting through some things right now. I've made some progress, and some steps backwards. She might want to work on things if I get some help for my depression and some other things. EA is still an issue, but it might be getting better. She's starting to see some ****** in the armor. We will see.


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## azteca1986

Does your WW's "might want to work on things" involve the small matter of her not having a boyfriend?

Glad you're making progress. Let's us know how we can help when you have time, fella.


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## nogutsnoglory

SteelerGuy said:


> I'm here to get help and guidance. Just because I don't want to run off and file divorce doesn't make me wrong. Every situation is unique, and I have told you guys countless times that I will welcome all advice except filing for divorce. That doesn't make my opinion pointless and that doesn't mean that I will fail. If me not wanting to file for divorce means that you don't want to help me, then fine. Unless my wife runs off and starts sleeping around, I won't file for divorce.



I think what some here really are trying to convey is that without divorce as a known consequence for one spouse not meeting a crucial need like respect for the other spouse, then the offending spouse has the leverage. Also, these type of people love that leverage and rely on it as a way to continue being selfish. They know eventually, they will get their way. 
Not wanting divorce on the table is personal for you and I think any reasonable person would respect your opinion. It is your life after all.


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