# Words of Encouragement...



## Neil (Jan 5, 2011)

Well, I maybe titled the thread wrong, but needs somewhere to post, as I can see the signs from other threads, probably looking for confirmation that what I am seeing is what I am thinking...

After some real success the lst few weeks in turning around things and "manning up"....

I haven't changed anything, but am somehow being drawn towards arguments over anything and everything, but when I confidently and calmly refuse to be drawn in, she begins to back down.

Am I right in that as she has seen changes in me, her response has been text book that I have seen changes in her, and now she is trying these "tests" to try and get me back to how I was (so to speak) or to see if I am going to revert back to it (ie the needeness/weak me etc)...

For example, this morning, normal activity before going to work, we both do what we need to (ie get ready, sort the kids etc etc), only this time as I went to give the normal kisses, and have a good day to all of them, the little one became clingly and she says, All 3 of you keep clinging on to me. I responded by saying, sorry love, don't think I ahve been "in your face" for the last few weeks, or haven't you noticed?, Yes I have noticed she responded, and then tried to push into an argument by waving the finger at the same time. I told her I wasn't being talked to like a child especially with the finger wagging, and said I'm off to work, see you all later.

Lunch time.. I phoned to see how they all were (she is using her holidays up at work) and things quickly escalate at home with the kids, "sorry I have to go, one has hit his head", so I say I will ring back a little later then.

WHen ringing later, everything was fine, calmed down, and then one kids nags as she is on the phone and she snaps at him. I simply say, love put your foot down, your on the phone with me, you have done well with that the last few weeks, and she tries to escalate into an argument and actually says "are we arguing about this". I say, well i'm not arguing, i'm just telling you that you snapped at him, and it really doesn't help anyone, she tries again to escalate, and I say, ok then, I will see you when I get home, bye. (no love yous or anything).

Is this now in the period of "testing" where I need to as everyone puts it "stay the course"???

I think I know the answer to this, but just needed to write it down where I can re-visit now and again, but I must say the last few weeks have been a real turnaround :smthumbup:


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

Yes. You are doing exact what you should be doing. IMO, it will probably be a while before you notice "extreme" changes in behavior because it's been only a short time, I'm assuming?

Awesome!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## breathe (Feb 2, 2011)

good luck, a tough situation but you seem to have a good attitude about it.


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## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

I've never done this "manning up" thing before but I don't think you're supposed to call to "see how they're all doing". If anything is wrong you'll get a call. If not, no need to give away that power.


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## coops (Jan 24, 2011)

Some people like to dress it up, but I like to call it like it is. This whole "Man up" thing can be summed up as "Be the alpha dog in your family". Literally think of a dog pack and how they would go at each others throats until someone wins. 

Until your pack order is established and your wife submits to you being the alpha, you are in a fight. You might not be actively fighting it out at every moment of the day, but make no mistake the battle last longer than 2 dogs fighting it out. 

Odds are she didn't obtain alpha status in your home on the first day. Probably took months of little interactions with you submitting and losing the power struggle you didn't even know you were having. It could take weeks or months of subtle infighting for power until she finally submits.

Until then, you must be very careful of everything you're doing. You cannot send mix messages. Here is a mixed message:



Neil said:


> I went to give the normal kisses, and have a good day to all of them, the little one became clingly and she says, All 3 of you keep clinging on to me. I responded by saying, sorry love, don't think I ahve been "in your face" for the last few weeks, or haven't you noticed?


Look at specific weak words "Sorry" and "Think". Are you actually sorry? Why are you apologizing to her? Do you think you weren't clingy or do you know you weren't clingy? 

Then after saying that, Are you asking her for her approval? Are you asking for her opinion on the matter? So you're both standing up strong and fighting her, but doing it in a weak manner. Mixed message. 

Why is the alpha dog "Giving" the "Normal" kisses. Alpha dogs "receive" the "Normal" kisses. Any kisses outside the norm, would then be special that the alpha gives. 

I know you think I'm just picking on you or at your words but take a good look at your language. Its all submissive. You might not recognize that you're in a power struggle with your wife but that is what is happening. People don't say it this way cause its not politically correct but it is the natural way of things. 

Until you win alpha status in your pack, anything you give is an seen as act of weakness. After you win alpha status, anything you give is seen as an act of generosity. 

This goes for the phone calls too. Why are you calling her? because you need her. Needy, clingy. Do you think its a coincidence she called you clingy? Again, until you are alpha dog in your house, the phone call is seen as clingy/needy. Once you are alpha, it will be seen as thoughtful and caring. It is all about context. 

Even though you know you're in a power struggle, do not act like you are in combat with your wife. Be fun and enjoyable to be around. Play with your wife, and go have a good time. Just be mindful of all the power interactions. Handle fitness tests with looks, jokes or just brush them off if possible.


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## Whatshisname (Jan 12, 2011)

Seems like your doing well except for the many calls during the day. One call would probably be enough, several just screams "needy" to me.
But hey, your doing great and it sounds like it's working!


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Neil,
Clearly you are making great progress. Just a view from a distance. There is NO WAY in hell I would call my W a second time when she is home with 3 kids and has already cut one call short. Please don't be offended but when that happens the first time why not say 'lets talk later' and then let her call/text you - or not. You are going to be home that night. 

In a sense you were being needy and she was being irritable. BAD combo. You can get on her about being irritable, but eventually the "neediness" will take its toll. 





Neil said:


> Well, I maybe titled the thread wrong, but needs somewhere to post, as I can see the signs from other threads, probably looking for confirmation that what I am seeing is what I am thinking...
> 
> After some real success the lst few weeks in turning around things and "manning up"....
> 
> ...


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## Neil (Jan 5, 2011)

Thanks all,

just a few "clear up's" ...

Coops "Look at specific weak words "Sorry" and "Think". Are you actually sorry? Why are you apologizing to her? Do you think you weren't clingy or do you know you weren't clingy? "

I certainly grasp what your saying here, and accept it, In our language when I said "sorry love", it was in a tone that was put across as "sorry love your wrong". Don't knwo if that changes the context or not, but will work to try and keep these "weak words" out. And the haven't you noticed, yes I will keep that out, as I was, looking back at it, looking for an acknowledgement that she had actually noticed differences.

i will explain a little the "phone back", the little one did actually bankg his head, I could hear it on the other end of the phone, but yes I can see how ringing all time this looks as needy.

I have done last night and this morning, 2 things I haven't done in months and months (or can't even remember the last time I did it).

I went out and fixed someone's PC, and didn't give a time when I would be back, just said see you later. When I got back she was already in Bed, and said she waited for me, but got too tired, so In i get and watched the TV and went the whole night without cuddling up or touching her (at one point I could feel her leg routing around for mine, but moved it completely). And this morning, got ready for work, got the little one, told her I would dress him etc whilst she got dressed. When she came back downstairs, I pickde my keys up and said "bye, bye and bye" in a joking way (ie one for each) and then left. No kisses or anything.

normally I would end up ringing in around an hour or so feeling guilty, THIS WILL NOT HAPPEN, and neither will the phone call at lunch. 

Let's see if anything comes from that

And whilst I know my posts are long, they are intended (and detailed) in a way that I can refer back to them whenever I need in order to pinpoint certain responses/behaviours to keep me on track etc.

Finally, I'm not offended by anything anyone say's, it is probably the kick up the backside that I need, not being judged by anyone close to home, so thanks guy's, I very much appreciate it.


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## Neil (Jan 5, 2011)

Coops, your last paragraph

"Even though you know you're in a power struggle, do not act like you are in combat with your wife. Be fun and enjoyable to be around. Play with your wife, and go have a good time. Just be mindful of all the power interactions. Handle fitness tests with looks, jokes or just brush them off if possible. "

This I could do with tatooing on my arm 

Its difficult as I have been one extreme to the other, we actually had major problems at the beginning of our relationship as I didn't give her the attention (ironic isn't it), and now I am too much. If I could hit that middle ground I know we would be fine, what I don't want to do is the complete opposite, what I am trying to do is also use the idiology of "turning down the thermostat" bit by bit, rather than in one big freeze (if that makes sense), and hopefully my thoughts are on the right lines


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## coops (Jan 24, 2011)

You're going to make mistakes. No question about it. I made so many while I was rebuilding my relationship. Finding that perfect balance and still staying fun to be around was very difficult. 

For the time being, If you find yourself unsure which way to lean to find the balance, lean towards jerk/winning the power interaction than nice/submissive. Worst case, you make a mistake, man up and make amends from a position of power and respect. 

Just keep in mind what I'm telling you is more short term remedy to get your relationship back on track. Like taking cough medicine while you're sick. So you're being slightly more "extreme" as you pull things together. 

It changes once the dynamic changes in your relationship and shes showing you love, respect and attraction, then you need to back off. After you've got that back, you do not want to win every single power interaction. You don't want a powerless/defeated wife. At that point you start leaning towards a healthier balance of win some, lose some, but win slightly more than you lose to maintain the love, attraction and respect. 




Neil said:


> Coops, your last paragraph
> 
> "Even though you know you're in a power struggle, do not act like you are in combat with your wife. Be fun and enjoyable to be around. Play with your wife, and go have a good time. Just be mindful of all the power interactions. Handle fitness tests with looks, jokes or just brush them off if possible. "
> 
> ...


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## Neil (Jan 5, 2011)

Thanks,

very timely, managed to get passed lunch and not ring, and it was beginning to eat away at me, and your reply really helped to keep to my point and not be Needy (it's hard, but I must do this).

She is actually in town today with the eldest (after school), and part of me is thinking, am I being selfish not ringing knowing everytime she comes into town, she always comes to my workplace for a lift home (and so arrange it)...

She hasn't contacted me either yet, so I assume she is trying to see if I back down on this. As was stated earlier, if she needs me she will ring.

Hopefully not being too harsh here..

Oh, and cheers for the future as well, I was wondering how long to keep this up for, and you have given me thought for that time too



coops said:


> You're going to make mistakes. No question about it. I made so many while I was rebuilding my relationship. Finding that perfect balance and still staying fun to be around was very difficult.
> 
> For the time being, If you find yourself unsure which way to lean to find the balance, lean towards jerk/winning the power interaction than nice/submissive. Worst case, you make a mistake, man up and make amends from a position of power and respect.
> 
> ...


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Neil,

That little voice inside that longs for re-assurance needs YOU to give it that reassurance. Not her.

That's the chasm you need to cross.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Neil,
You are doing great. Really. This is a hard pattern to break. Take your nervous energy and focus it on work. 

If she asks why you didn't call/text and she most likely will - tell her you had a really busy day at work. Do not help her turn this into an argument. One really simple response if someone is grilling you about why you didn't call them:

"Did you need something from me"?

And that should be asked in a sincere manner - not a sarcastic or edgy tone. Because she actually did WANT something from you. Emotional reassurance. But the broken dynamic you two have is that instead of her calling YOU when she wants that reassurance, she waits for you to call her. And then - when you do it a little too often she finds "the excess attention" and "you" to be irritating. 

So instead of you setting the pace in all this - let her do so. 

She may "poke" you at some point with an irritated "It would have been nice for you to call at least once". 

I personally have a whole chapter full of "plays" that I run in response to various types of "pokes"/"fitness tests". If I am tired, upset, angry I usually run the simplest play which is 
"silence". I am not obligated to respond to a poke. 

While silence works very well, nothing ever beats humor. Since this "theme" of "who" should initiate calls/texts is so common and often such a good barometer of the balance/health of a marriage you can try to get her to play the "cell phone service" level skit with you. It sort of goes like this and is in response to her complaining about YOU not calling her:
You: Darling, I have been thinking about upgrading the service plan on your phone.
Her: What?
You: I think it is time that we enable "outbound" calling on your plan so you can actually "initiate" calls to others as opposed to your current plan which is limited to "receiving" calls.

But this has to be done in a light hearted way. If you can't be playful in tone, it comes across as kind of jerky. If you can be playful this could turn into either some healthy self awareness for her or if she is clever she may banter back with you. I seem to recall my W remarking that she was going to pay ATT to enable the "mute" feature in "my" service plan. 






Neil said:


> Thanks,
> 
> very timely, managed to get passed lunch and not ring, and it was beginning to eat away at me, and your reply really helped to keep to my point and not be Needy (it's hard, but I must do this).
> 
> ...


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## Neil (Jan 5, 2011)

Thanks, their is a really good couple of points I will take from that, especially the phone plan part and outgoing calls, consider that stored for future reference, I have no doubt whatsoever It will be used.

I am happy to see quite often around this forum that humour is used to difuse situations, I can do that, especially with my partner, unfortunately she tends to too often to hit the right buttons, and I am not really known for staying calm, I am very fiery and snap (something my mother told me that's all I probably need to work on). So if I can replace my bursts with quick calm banter, I am sure I can win this initial "Battle"...



MEM11363 said:


> Neil,
> You are doing great. Really. This is a hard pattern to break. Take your nervous energy and focus it on work.
> 
> If she asks why you didn't call/text and she most likely will - tell her you had a really busy day at work. Do not help her turn this into an argument. One really simple response if someone is grilling you about why you didn't call them:
> ...


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## Neil (Jan 5, 2011)

Oh, and thinking around this whole thing and looking back over the years, things are really starting to sink in whats been happening. We tend to have issues every 6 months (its like clockwork, only this time I have had enough of it).

I have been submissive, eventually everything calmed down or she gives in, I get confident etc etc, and at that point she throws these 6 monthly points at me for tests. Its all making sense. These must be the battles over the years I've constantly been losing without realising it.

This is where I finally break this silly, stupid 6 monthly cycle, I think I have finally "seen the light".

I will win this, I will be confident, and I will re-establish my self respect, sense of worth, and everything I need to.

(until tomorrow lunch) LOL


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## Neil (Jan 5, 2011)

Ha Ha... Textbook

i know I shouldn't laugh at my situation, but confidence is growing seeing everyones suggestions work like a dream... Confidence is returning in me, and ultimately I am starting to feel happier, and this actually comes across from my partner.

I got home yesterday, and straight away could see she was pissed at me (for not giving her the kiss, and not phoning), I acted as though nothing was wrong. I could see it eating away at her to say something, but I wasn't going to give her the satisfaction and say something.

I went through the entire night just being fun, flirtacious (reserved), confident as though things were "normal". It worked. She came around (after around an hour of giving me the silent treatment which I chose to ignore).

She also brought up a minor operation due next week (wisdom teeth out under general annesthitic(Sp)), so responded by being supportive, and telling her not to bottle things up, she knows where I am for support (which brought her around), and then began to change subject onto fun matters. (later I asked if she was ok now about next week, and she said, yes, thanks for ebing their).

Can't remember the subject, but remembering what coops said about the "weak language", I naturally said sorry at the beginning of the sentence. Quickly to be corrected by saying, You know what, I don't know why I said sorry, I have nothing to be sorry about. (Anyway, she just said nothing, And knowing her well enough, this was an acknowledgment that I was right)...

Before bed, she could see I was having issues with my neck (once a year it seems to lock up), and got a full neck massage without even asking... Nice

Good night all round, until we go to bed (or so I thought). I deliberately just got in, said nothing, rolled over to go to sleep. (if she wanted anything, I was litterally 1 foot away).

She complained (get that, complained) because I was laying in the exact same position as her ignoring her. I laughed, turned it into a funny situation, and eventually we laid face to face. I just said, look love, you know what happens to me when we get close like this. "oh, I've just got comfortable". (I have learned this sign over the years to mean, go for it then as she will be straight when no means no). Bringing this new reserved me into play, I didn't go for full glory, deliberately turned this into a "mutual session" with the aim of saying, look their are plenty of other things we can do, without going full hog and gung-ho.

This morning, we did exactly the same as yesterday, and I also went for the same approach with not giving her a kiss before going to work. Only she seemed to know this was going to happen, and after me giving the kids a kiss each, she jumped in and said "oh, so I come third do I". I used the joking method again, laughed it off, gave a SMALL peck, small wry smile, said see you later and left.

So, I am seeing progress, and their was no attempts at trying to drag me into an argument. 

Seems as though this is working


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## peace (Jan 19, 2011)

Neil,
You are doing great with everything I have read. I have been doing the same thing too. My wife and I are really going through major power struggles because she is the one who has checked out of our marriage. I have set my boundaries and I do not call or text for that matter. She is the one to call me for anything that has to do with our child. It has been the hardest thing to do but it is working for now. I will not give in to her and loose everything I have done, she needs to realize that things need to be resolved and she is avoiding them. Good luck and keep it up!


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Neil,
Awesome. Beautiful. 




Neil said:


> Ha Ha... Textbook
> 
> i know I shouldn't laugh at my situation, but confidence is growing seeing everyones suggestions work like a dream... Confidence is returning in me, and ultimately I am starting to feel happier, and this actually comes across from my partner.
> 
> ...


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## Neil (Jan 5, 2011)

Cheers for your suggestions and support guys, really appreciated.

Not wanting to rock the boat, I have seen and read the "5 love languages" website, completed my "self assessment" and I must say it had me spot on.

I would like to try what my partner comes out at. Am I best just leaving this and continuing as I am doing now, or how would I be able to introduce this for her to complete without raising suspicions etc


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Neil,
Can you "score" your W yourself based on how she has reacted in the past? BTW - supply and demand apply - meaning your W might "glow" at being told she is beautiful, or you love her. Unless you overdo it in which case it becomes a "negative" experience for her frighteningly quickly. 

This is not a perfect analogy - but it is close. Picture your favorite rich desert. How do you feel when you eat it on an empty stomach. Incredible eh? 

Now - eat a normal meal until you are full. Eat that desert - tastes good - but leaves you feeling a bit overfull - not quite so nice. Now - eat a second helping - you are starting to feel bad. On the third helping you vomit and - congratulations - you have just developed at least a temporary aversion to that desert. 

Love richly but lightly....




Neil said:


> Cheers for your suggestions and support guys, really appreciated.
> 
> Not wanting to rock the boat, I have seen and read the "5 love languages" website, completed my "self assessment" and I must say it had me spot on.
> 
> I would like to try what my partner comes out at. Am I best just leaving this and continuing as I am doing now, or how would I be able to introduce this for her to complete without raising suspicions etc


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

coops said:


> Some people like to dress it up, but I like to call it like it is. This whole "Man up" thing can be summed up as "Be the alpha dog in your family". Literally think of a dog pack and how they would go at each others throats until someone wins.


Maybe this is why 2sick thinks that this Man Up thing is gross? 



> Until your pack order is established and your wife submits to you being the alpha, you are in a fight. You might not be actively fighting it out at every moment of the day, but make no mistake the battle last longer than 2 dogs fighting it out.


What if your wife is alpha and you aren't? Works pretty well for us.

There is limit enforcement. Then there is being a dork. Pack in order? Lord the day I submit, is the day I am in my grave. I will cheerfully give fully of my heart, time, money. Anything for a friend and he is my number one friend. But if he viewed his role as pack leader, he would be leading a pack of one. I am no dog.


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## coops (Jan 24, 2011)

Talking about dog packs makes things very easy to understand. Humans by their very nature, live in hierarchies, just like dogs do. You might like to think you're somehow special or more evolved but everything we do as humans revolves around this concept. Governments, businesses, tribes, everywhere you look, people are appointing leaders and followers. We are most comfortably NATURALLY with this dynamic. It occurs so naturally that we don't even recognize it in the way we've set up our entire world. 

However, people are being taught from childhood to deny this reality, that hierarchies and power dynamics are at play, and since they deny it, is exactly why most marriages and relationships are tanking the way they do. 

In every relationship there are ebbs and flows of power. Some interactions the male is alpha, some the female is alpha. However, It is my opinion based on observations of nature, female attraction and evolutionary psychology that a relationship would be better served if the male is alpha more often than the female. 

Most average healthy females are attracted to strong confident males. I say healthy because there is no way to account for severe emotional trauma or largely imbalanced hormones as an average. So when most average healthy females are put into the alpha position, they naturally lose attraction for the male, thus destabilizing the relationship. 

I'm glad it works for you. I'm glad you're wired in a way that you can dominate your husband and still maintain sexual attraction towards him. However, it doesn't work that way for most people.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

coops said:


> Talking about dog packs makes things very easy to understand. Humans by their very nature, live in hierarchies, just like dogs do.


Yah, not so much. Somehow we manage without. 



> You might like to think you're somehow special or more evolved but everything we do as humans revolves around this concept.


Nope no more evolved. I think people have something that dogs don't. Reason. (Not to mention thumbs!) 



> However, people are being taught from childhood to deny this reality, that hierarchies and power dynamics are at play, and since they deny it, is exactly why most marriages and relationships are tanking the way they do.


Oh! Oh! That's me! That's what I teach my kids! Power dynamics are the least important of our interpersonal dynamics. 


> I'm glad it works for you. I'm glad you're wired in a way that you can dominate your husband and still maintain sexual attraction towards him. However, it doesn't work that way for most people.


I don't dominate him. Is that what alpha means? Then that word is not what I am. Why would I want to dominate him? He has a brain. He can think for himself. As can I. Ergo he does not need to dominate me. 

I feel sorry for people stuck in power plays. It leaves off the possibility of true love.


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## coops (Jan 24, 2011)

What do you mean we manage without? Our whole lives are structured in hierarchies. 

You know what alpha means and it doesn't mean dominate. Scratch Alpha and insert the word "Leader". For the sake of my post above change the word "Dominate" and insert "Lead" and the post still stands. 

"I'm glad it works for you. I'm glad you're wired in a way that you can lead your husband and still maintain sexual attraction towards him. However, it doesn't work that way for most people."


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

VT,
I was under the impression that you made most of the decisions in your house and that both you and your H were very comfortable with that. In fact I thought that he preferred it that way. I am not suggesting this = you dominate HIM. I do believe that it means you are the "prime" in the marriage. That does not mean you are: Rude, inconsiderate, aggressive, selfish. It does not mean you act autonomously. It just means that you suggest most activities/plans and/or tend to have the final say on decisions. 






vthomeschoolmom said:


> Yah, not so much. Somehow we manage without.
> 
> 
> Nope no more evolved. I think people have something that dogs don't. Reason. (Not to mention thumbs!)
> ...


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

coops said:


> What do you mean we manage without? Our whole lives are structured in hierarchies.


Repeating it makes it true? I just plain don't agree with this. I believe that our power to reason opens doors beyond hierarchical governance as a means of getting along with each other.



> You know what alpha means and it doesn't mean dominate. Scratch Alpha and insert the word "Leader". For the sake of my post above change the word "Dominate" and insert "Lead" and the post still stands.


Ok in that case I am not alpha. I am organized. 



> "I'm glad it works for you. I'm glad you're wired in a way that you can lead your husband and still maintain sexual attraction towards him. However, it doesn't work that way for most people."


I don't lead my husband.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> VT,
> I was under the impression that you made most of the decisions in your house and that both you and your H were very comfortable with that. In fact I thought that he preferred it that way. I am not suggesting this = you dominate HIM. I do believe that it means you are the "prime" in the marriage. That does not mean you are: Rude, inconsiderate, aggressive, selfish. It does not mean you act autonomously. It just means that you suggest most activities/plans and/or tend to have the final say on decisions.


I wouldn't say I have the final say. I have the FIRST say. For a decision that goes beyond the day to day, we negotiate until we can find a win for both of us. Sometimes one of us just does not care about the issue and cedes to the other.

I am more forceful than he is. If the plumber screwed the job, I am the one to call and get a free fix. If we need a loan, I go to the bank... But the loan we are going for, we both decide.


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## coops (Jan 24, 2011)

vthomeschoolmom said:


> Repeating it makes it true? I just plain don't agree with this. I believe that our power to reason opens doors beyond hierarchical governance as a means of getting along with each other.


You think hierarchies don't exist? they exist in your own house. All your described actions clearly make you the leader despite the fact you don't want to call it that. You lead your husband, he follows. This is a power structure. This is a hierarchy. 

What you're doing is arguing based on what you believe, what you wish, what you hope... to be true. Your arguments are grounded in emotion, not reason. Does it matter if you don't agree with the "man up" thing? You can hate it, disagree, think it stinks like 2sick but what does that change? Nothing. It works in reality. That is all that matters at the end of the day.


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## Neil (Jan 5, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> Neil,
> Can you "score" your W yourself based on how she has reacted in the past? BTW - supply and demand apply - meaning your W might "glow" at being told she is beautiful, or you love her. Unless you overdo it in which case it becomes a "negative" experience for her frighteningly quickly.
> 
> This is not a perfect analogy - but it is close. Picture your favorite rich desert. How do you feel when you eat it on an empty stomach. Incredible eh?
> ...



I hear ya...

I will leave this alone, things are working extremely well at the moment


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## Neil (Jan 5, 2011)

vthomeschoolmom said:


> Maybe this is why 2sick thinks that this Man Up thing is gross?


Hmmm.

Look, make no mistake, it won't work in every situation. It's working in mine. End of.

Even this morning, my partner was walking around with a smile on her face, whilstling and singing, and even made my lunch for work (which she hasn't done in months). Its not a behaviour I expect, but the "little things" are returning, I appreciated this thought, but its not an expectation.

Now, if this "man up" doesn't work, how come I have gone from no confidence/needy to being confident and happy, and my partner's behaviour to being happy/responsive etc.

Now, excuse me, but their is a thread in the "LADIES lounge" discussing this subject, if you don't agree with it, or have issues with it, then go and post their. I do not appreciate my thread being hijacked by someone who doesn't like the theory to put their own thoughts into it.

I have been here to ask for help as a final straw because I felt I couldn't do anything else. Do you know what, this has been my life saver, and the fact that we are beginning to be happy again is absolutely no coincidence since I have been on this "man up" journey. I can see real life living proof that my positiveness and firmness and everything else in this is not only making my partner more happy again, it is more importantly making me happy


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## Neil (Jan 5, 2011)

In addition, (as I have began reading the "ladies lounge" version of the debate)

I'm also not "Jerking Up".

Last night, she was extremely tired, I could see that. (She had spent the day really sorting out a lot of housework (she needn't have, I can help when I get home), but it was her way of taking her mind off her hospital visit next week. (she told me this without prompting which again, is another milestone achievement in itself).

I confidently, calmly and basically gave her no option, but to go upstairs, take a relaxing bath while I sorted out the kids, got them ready for bed and then made her favourite drink and took it up to her. Told her when she had finished in the bath and had a drink to go get straight in bed and get some much needed rest. (normally I would baulk at this as I wanted time with her too). But last night, it was clear that "my neediness" wasn't their.

She refused, and pushed herself to stay awake for another 2 hours to spend time with me (much apprectiated). And she got a foot massage whilst with me. It became a connection that over the last few years, we had totally lost.

And finally, when the time came when she couldn't keep awake, I told her, look, your not doing yourself any favours by forcing yourself to be awake just for me.

She got up, thanked me, gave me a kiss and asked if I was going to be long. (again, something else that has been missing)

I confidently told her, I was going to finish wathcing a documentery on TV and then come to bed, and she could then get to sleep without the distraction of the TV.

As far as I can see, last night, we both had our "needs" met. I helped, "serviced", saw she needed sleep etc she got the caring side of me, a few laughs and jokes (which is exactly how I was when we first met, and what made her fall in love with me) and essentially how I was

I got an appreciation, my needs met, that I felt appreciated, and to a better extent loved. More importantly, feeling myself again in being confident, fun.

This continued this morning (see above post).

So, manning up isn't about being a jerk, it has its positives, and in my mind restores me, to being me.

I can see, this will also lead to getting more of my "needs" met too, but I am not about to start pushing for everything too much too soon. Things will happen naturally, just like when we first met. Its like falling in love all over again (for her at least).

But, and this is the big But, I will be tested along the way, I would be a fool to drop my guard. This is what has happened over our 10 years, to a point where I felt no self respect, and got no respect from my partner. This is still in its early days, but it's turning around quickly. I have gone from being extremely unhappy for 12 months, to being more like myself and I started this journey at Christmas, so nearly 2 months in, I am having some real success.

And thanks really go to MEM, Coops and conrad, who have given me the tools to fix this. They really didn't need to do as I don't know them from Adam.

I have turned a real corner, and now its up to me to keep this job going.

I also feel I can start advising "Others", but at the beginning it was all about me, I needed to get me going again.

This site will also be recommended to a few of my friends, who are having exactly the same issues.

i'm off now, work to do


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## coops (Jan 24, 2011)

That's really fantastic Neil. I couldn't be happier to hear that. I went through a similar transition with my wife. It just started to snowball in the right direction. 

I apologize for helping to "derail" your topic.


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## coops (Jan 24, 2011)

I think this is what really gets lost in translation. I know for myself when I post on these forums, I can be very serious for lack of a better word. I feel like I come off as this power hungry jerk that is grouchy all the time and just out to dominate my wife. I tend to get very serious when discussing these topics cause they can make or break entire relationships. 

So, do I act like a jerk with my wife? I certainly don't think so. Here is a little snippet from Tuesday. It was a day off for me and I woke up at 7:30 when I easily could have slept till 10, to make her breakfast. While she was getting for work, I fried up some bacon, grated the cheese and made some omelettes. We sat for 10 minutes having breakfast while chatting. I then made her lunch and off to work she went.

While she was off at work, I fixed an issue with the car, washed all the dishes, cleaned up the living room, and then had dinner ready to serve when she got home. I'm such an abusive jerk!

Over dinner she tells me how much she missed me at work today. She put her hand on my knee which I hurt pretty bad a few months ago, to comfort it and asked how it was doing. It was loving and affectionate. Later in the night she initiated sex, with no prompting at all from me.

1 year ago though? Wouldn't have happened. If I did something like that a year ago, it would just be an expectation. Telling me she missed me? not a chance. Initiating sex? no chance. See before I changed, it would have been viewed as a serving act and I would have been treated as such, a servant. Now all those actions are viewed as loving gestures or acts of generosity. 

Now though, I'm the man of the house so to speak. I wear the pants. I'm the leader of the pack. That doesn't have anything to do with being nice or being a jerk. Manning up is the foundation, without it, the house you build crumbles.


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## Neil (Jan 5, 2011)

coops said:


> I apologize for helping to "derail" your topic.



Not a problem at all. You didn't "Start it" LOL


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Neil,
You are really skilled at this. And it seems like you married a genuinely good person. 

BTW: The best "struggles" as I won't call them arguments - that my W and I have are those that occur when I want to take care of her needs and she is equally adamant about taking care of mine. 




Neil said:


> In addition, (as I have began reading the "ladies lounge" version of the debate)
> 
> I'm also not "Jerking Up".
> 
> ...


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## Neil (Jan 5, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> Neil,
> You are really skilled at this. And it seems like you married a genuinely good person.


Cheers MEM, another "confidence booster"

The difficulty I know I will have is sticking to it (I am as determined on this more than anything I have been before), but I read somewhere on here, If I can keep to certain behaviours for (can't remember) 30 days, it ends up being natural. I certainly hope so. 

And I know I am with the right partner, she is everything to me and everything I wish for, she is also one fantastic mum too (and a yummy mummy to boot).

I am pretty confident that this time I/We can finally crack this cycle we have been having and I can remain confident and happy in myself, and who knows, maybe in future I can start posting in the "long term happiness" section


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## bill2011 (Feb 5, 2011)

Great to hear things are heading in the right direction. I'm not looking to hijack this thread but would like to ask a question based on the last few threads. I am very new to this journey and now realize I was servicing to receive. I have cut everything off (not in a mean way) but just til I get my head around things. How do you know when your ready to perform an act of generosity vs. servicing. It would seem like it hinges on me to not expect anything in return but how is this viewed from the W viewpoint. I don't want to send any mixed signals.

Thanks


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## coops (Jan 24, 2011)

I would base it off her initiations. Does she initiate sex? Does she initiate affection and ILY's? Is she trying to find ways to spend more time with you or talk to you more? When you get these buying signals, you're good to go. Those are all signals that she is highly attracted to you. Wait till you're getting them more consistently, don't just do it cause you get 1 little signal. 

Now when you do something though, here is a tip: Don't ask her if she wants it or find ways to deflect it a little. 

For example I generally know what my wife likes for breakfast, so I didn't bother to ask her if she wanted an omelette. I just made it but if I was a little unsure if she'd want it, I'd say something like "I'm going to make an omelette would you like one as well?" instead of "Do you want me to make you an omelette?". 

Another example If shes sore and you're thinking to do something like a massage don't say "Hey hun would you like a massage?" Say "take off your clothes and lay down there and i'll give you a little massage". The first is almost approval/permission seeking. If she doesn't want the massage she can still say no, but at least you didn't appear to be permission seeking. 

A lot of the time its not what you do, its how attracted your wife is to you when you do it. 

Do women love flowers? Yes
Do women love getting flowers from someone they're not attracted to? No
If they get flowers from someone they're not attracted to, will it raise their attraction levels? No, likely lower it
Will it make the woman want to talk to that guy even less? Yes
So flowers are something women love, yet they can have a repulsive effect if attractive levels are low/non existent? Yes. 

This is why when you "man up" at first, you're almost at the point where you will give nothing and do nothing, women might call it being a jerk but when attraction levels are low, any nice thing you do, even if women normally love it, can have a negative effect on your relationship. 

So basically its all about attraction. Wait until you're certain the attraction levels are high. Then you can feel free to be as nice or generous as you want but ALWAYS stay on guard for the next 50 years of your life! If attraction levels drop, nice and generous must go with it.


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## bill2011 (Feb 5, 2011)

Thanks for the advice, She has been trying to be a little better but I think this is because we had it out last week, not because she is more attracted to me yet, so I think i'll keep status quo for now. I'm thinking of just doing the basic for valentines day, some simple flower and a card.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Coops,
Another excellent post. I am only going to add a small comment here. 

This has never happened to me - but if my W was sore and I told her "lie down and I will give you a massage" and she said "no thanks" as like a brush off I would "not" feel rejected or project "rejected/dejected" body language. Instead she would get this special look I have. I call it the "defective spouse behavior" look. There is no anger in it - just a combination of surprise and distaste for HER behavior. And then she gets the long drawn out "oooookkkkkaaaaayyyyyy then" and I go do something else. 

And later if she asks if you are mad:
Smiling and puzzled: "Why, I spent that time at the gym/playing catch with our daughter, etc."

Translation - I do not need to spend my time pleasuring you when I can easily pleasure myself without you.




coops said:


> I would base it off her initiations. Does she initiate sex? Does she initiate affection and ILY's? Is she trying to find ways to spend more time with you or talk to you more? When you get these buying signals, you're good to go. Those are all signals that she is highly attracted to you. Wait till you're getting them more consistently, don't just do it cause you get 1 little signal.
> 
> Now when you do something though, here is a tip: Don't ask her if she wants it or find ways to deflect it a little.
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Bill,
Your Vday plans are very wise. If you get the sarcastic "Gee thanks" I would not be baited. Just ignore it. Or if she directly asks "what else am I getting"? 

I would make direct, unbreaking eye contact and ask "I am confused - when are we going to discuss what I am getting"? And if she implies sex that night I would smile and say - I look forward to making sure that is a present YOU enjoy as much as I do. So you can think of that as your "third" gift after the card and the flowers - "my part in tonights festivities". 

And then no matter what - do not blink. If she pretends that without "more" gifts/dinners/etc. there may not/will not be sex just don't respond. I would NEVER dignify explicit gift digging for sex with any type acknowledgement. 

This may well turn into a serious fitness test. Just be prepared and be calm. She cannot "make" you be her "beitch" and her games will likely be fairly obvious. 

I can honestly say that in 21 years I have never once made "peace" to get laid. It might work once but it is the surest path in the world to celibacy. 




bill2011 said:


> Thanks for the advice, She has been trying to be a little better but I think this is because we had it out last week, not because she is more attracted to me yet, so I think i'll keep status quo for now. I'm thinking of just doing the basic for valentines day, some simple flower and a card.


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## bill2011 (Feb 5, 2011)

Thanks MEM as always,

I would be surprised if she went there, but if she does I will be ready. Normally I would do a lot more but don't want to. She might notice this and think I'm mad at her for everything and this is what I don't want either. Mad = Emotional = Weak. So we'll see how if goes.


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## Neil (Jan 5, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> It sort of goes like this and is in response to her complaining about YOU not calling her:
> You: Darling, I have been thinking about upgrading the service plan on your phone.
> Her: What?
> You: I think it is time that we enable "outbound" calling on your plan so you can actually "initiate" calls to others as opposed to your current plan which is limited to "receiving" calls.


I had to report back, I actually got this in this morning, even though we are really getting right back on track.

I know she is really busy with loads of things today, so I even said (and I have continued to stick to the no phone calls) anyway, "not to expect a phone call as I can see your busy, but by the way, when you ring the telephone company up for your new telephone, ask them to dah dah dah dah..."

I got a smile, she new what I was getting at.

Anyway, thigns are improving no-end, she has recently said ILY with no prompting, showing more signs of affection, and today (the biggest one so far) she even was walking around this morning saying she has felt really good these last few days, and that she has even gone as far as not worrying about the hospital trip later this week.

Result, I can sense this "love train" and that I have managed to really oil the wheels, and lets hope this continues and its a really fast ride.

An another note, as I left this morning, she came to me for a kiss, and even planted right on the lips (as I slightly turned my head for it to go on the cheeks, she slowly moved my head back to ensure it too).

Oh, and one correction I seemed to have misled, we aren't actually married, but been together 10 years, and last night, she brought the subject up to see if we can move towards this.

I really feel as though I have finally won this, and its without a shaddow of a doubt, that I would have continued to struggle if it weren't for the helpfull advice off here

:smthumbup:


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## Neil (Jan 5, 2011)

bill2011 said:


> Great to hear things are heading in the right direction. I'm not looking to hijack this thread but would like to ask a question based on the last few threads. I am very new to this journey and now realize I was servicing to receive. I have cut everything off (not in a mean way) but just til I get my head around things. How do you know when your ready to perform an act of generosity vs. servicing. It would seem like it hinges on me to not expect anything in return but how is this viewed from the W viewpoint. I don't want to send any mixed signals.
> 
> Thanks


Not to worry Bill, its the same scenario.

Once you can get into the swing of it and understand it, its actually quite easy to pull off (if you are determined and beleive in yourself).

Good Luck mate


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Neil,

You haven't "won"

You finally understand the rules.

You both will win as a result.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Quoted for truth. Thanks Conrad.



Conrad said:


> Neil,
> 
> You haven't "won"
> 
> ...


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## Neil (Jan 5, 2011)

Conrad said:


> Neil,
> 
> You haven't "won"
> 
> ...



Yes your right, not the best words I've ever chosen to use. :slap: I get your point.

Its probably a timely reminder not to get carried away too, but now I understand whats happening, I certainly feel more comfortable with how I engage certain scenario's and situations.


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