# Fiance doesn't give blow jobs. Should I call of the wedding/



## grear (Jul 5, 2015)

Ok maybe the title is a little extreme but that's how I feel right now. I've been dating an awesome woman for a year now and she made me wait 5 month before we had sex. She's 8 years younger than me and while I was previously married for 11 years, she has only had one other sexual relationship in her life. My last marriage ended due to infidelity on my ex's part and during the last 3 years of our marriage, we had sex less than 10 times. A sexless marriage sucks and that's not something I want to go through again. With all that being said, sex with my fiance has been good for the most part. It's mainly just been standard intercourse with me giving her oral sex. She never gave me blow jobs in the beginning and I never pushed the issue. Still, I wondered why she never did that since I would always happily go down on her. We were getting intimate last night and I told her to give me a blow job. She looked at me like I just stole the last apple and she said she doesn't do that. She said it was demeaning and she would never "put that thing anywhere near my face". She got so worked up about it that she killed the mood and made me leave her apartment. I've been texting her all day and she hasn't responded because she says she needs time to herself. I'm so upset because I don't think giving a blow job is demeaning but she is acting like I demanded a blood diamond from her. I don't know if it's just my emotions getting the best of me but I'm strongly considering cancelling the wedding and just moving on with my life. I figure that if she is dictating what is right and wrong at this stage of the relationship. I may be already headed towards another sexless marriage. Still, I'm confused about what to do because I really love her. Has anyone been in a situation like this before? Any advice would be appreciated.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

The purpose of dating is to find a partner you're compatible with. She's not the one. Don't let anyone convince you she might change. It's who she is. Keep looking and don't settle.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

WorkingOnMe said:


> The purpose of dating is to find a partner you're compatible with. She's not the one. Don't let anyone convince you she might change. It's who she is. Keep looking and don't settle.


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:

QFT! (Quoted For Truth!)


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

* With extremely rare exception does an "old dog ever learn new tricks!" Regarding the loving act of oral sex, it's rather apparent that while she has absolutely no problems in receiving that love, she conversely has trouble in bestowing it to you. That also would tend, over the due course of time, to make its way into the other psychological as well as the physiological aspects of your lives ~ Ergo, she is nothing more than a ticking time bomb just waiting to go off~ and, I might add, not in a good way!

Let's just say that I'm in total agreement with my TAM brethren here that you direly need to keep searching until such time that "that very special woman" meets, as close as possible, all of those very same expectations that you do in freely being able to fully subject themselves to both lovingly and unselfishly, giving and receiving, both inside and outside of the boudoir! That is the one true standard of measurement of the size of their heart ~ one that is dictated moreso out of unselfish love and definitely not out of fearful aversion!

Just saying!*


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## richie33 (Jul 20, 2012)

She is not the one for you. She is selfish, best to find this out now.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Yes! You should call off the wedding.

Otherwise, you are setting yourself up for a world of resentment, hurt and misery. And likely a long steady decline that turns into another sexless marriage.

You two are not compatible.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Yes.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

I wonder if she had a bad experience with a past guy? Maybe she was forced at one time.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

bandit.45 said:


> I wonder if she had a bad experience with a past guy? Maybe she was forced at one time.


That might be the case, but imo, it's no excuse. This is not just "some guy", nor is this a man she can't trust.

Sex, and sexual acts, are one of those things that people run away from at the first sign of trouble, which sucks. If you have a bad burger at one restaurant, not too many people swear off burgers entirely, at every other restaurant, too. You just don't go back that particular one, and/or you are more diligent about where you eat in the future.

Sex tends to be that one thing where one bad experience is enough to make somebody say "never again", and that's not healthy.

I don't want to turn this thread into what these threads usually turn into, but I just don't get the whole aversion to oral sex thing, at all. I'm a heterosexual male, and I've never put a penis in my mouth, but I have a hard time understanding what would be so bad about it if it was the norm. (if I was gay, or a woman, I mean).

As far as it possibly being demeaning, I don't get that, either. My wife likes to do it from behind, on all fours. She's not looking at me, there's no eye contact or embrace, and she's sticking her a** out at me. Doggy style is a purely sexual position, no love or intimacy involved, yet it's the "norm" for most couples. I'm not insulted and I don't feel demeaned when she turns around and sticks her a** at me without asking or saying anything, even though this theoretically means "f*** me" rather than "make love to me".

Good sex is equal parts of each, imo, and this involves giving and receiving, as well as varying positions that are good, or better, for one partner.


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## SARAHMCD (Jul 2, 2014)

I'm concerned that you are just discovering this aversion of hers a year into the relationship and after you have proposed marriage. Learning from your first marriage that sex is very important to you and your happiness you should have tested this compatibility early on. I would say to work with her on this but her reaction was not just "I'm uncomfortable doing that" but rather "hell no!"and then to leave and not speak to you.....very strange. It's possible there is a history of abuse here. It's certainly worth sitting her down to try to discuss. She needs to understand how important sex is to you.
But if you let it go now.....yes, you're in for a virtually sexless marriage again.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

If she is selfish in bed, she will be selfish in other areas of the marriage also.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

grear said:


> Ok maybe the title is a little extreme but that's how I feel right now. I've been dating an awesome woman for a year now and she made me wait 5 month before we had sex.


She MADE you wait? That should have been a warning sign right there. Waiting is all well and good if both parties want to take it slow, but if you felt resentful then about her forcing you to jump through hoops about starting to be sexual, it isn't going to get any better! You were sexually incompatible from the start.



grear said:


> She's 8 years younger than me and while I was previously married for 11 years, she has only had one other sexual relationship in her life. My last marriage ended due to infidelity on my ex's part and during the last 3 years of our marriage, we had sex less than 10 times. A sexless marriage sucks and that's not something I want to go through again.


So focus on finding someone who IS sexually compatible with you. You'll have a lot better luck with continuing your search than you will with changing your fiancee.



grear said:


> With all that being said, sex with my fiance has been good for the most part. It's mainly just been standard intercourse with me giving her oral sex. She never gave me blow jobs in the beginning and I never pushed the issue. Still, I wondered why she never did that since I would always happily go down on her. We were getting intimate last night and I told her to give me a blow job. She looked at me like I just stole the last apple and she said she doesn't do that. She said it was demeaning and she would never "put that thing anywhere near my face". She got so worked up about it that she killed the mood and made me leave her apartment.


Yes, definitely sexually incompatible! In the new romance stage of things, she should be eager to be all over you. It's certainly not going to happen later!



grear said:


> I've been texting her all day and she hasn't responded because she says she needs time to herself. I'm so upset because I don't think giving a blow job is demeaning but she is acting like I demanded a blood diamond from her. I don't know if it's just my emotions getting the best of me but I'm strongly considering cancelling the wedding and just moving on with my life. I figure that if she is dictating what is right and wrong at this stage of the relationship. I may be already headed towards another sexless marriage. Still, I'm confused about what to do because I really love her. Has anyone been in a situation like this before? Any advice would be appreciated.


You love who you WISH she would be, not the woman you actually have in front of you. Just as she's apparently reconsidering marrying you because of your awful desire to have her touch your **** with her mouth, you should be reconsidering because of her prudish nature.

By the way, she'll try to convince you that you're a shallow selfish ******* for only wanting a woman willing to give a blow job, or thinking that the rest of her is worthless because of this one small thing. Don't fall for it. This is just the symptom that has you looking at the entire illness.

You need sexual compatibility in a mate. The wife you need is one who is more sexually adventurous than this woman. She's inexperienced, true, but obviously not willing to explore that with you and expand her horizons. Part ways. Be glad you made this discovery before the wedding.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Move on. Your only mistake was letting things get this far in the first place, but that's not a reason to perpetuate the error.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

I've got this awesome golden retriever that loves to fetch a tennis ball, but when she brings it to me she will not let it go. Then if I try to take it from her mouth she growls and gets all upset as if I am taking blood diamonds from her. Because I can never get the ball back means we can't keep playing our game of fetch, and I only get to throw just once. Why have a retriever that can't play fetch? Should I put her down?

...No, you throw something (anything) else, and THEN you get the tennis ball back!!!!

Cheers, 
Badsanta


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

You can always get a second retriever who does play nice. Second wives aren't legal - yet. Thus it is necessary to pick a good one-only future wife.


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## SecondTime'Round (Jan 15, 2015)

badsanta said:


> I've got this awesome golden retriever that loves to fetch a tennis ball, but when she brings it to me she will not let it go. Then if I try to take it from her mouth she growls and gets all upset as if I am taking blood diamonds from her. Because I can never get the ball back means we can't keep playing our game of fetch, and I only get to throw just once. Why have a retriever that can't play fetch? Should I put her down?
> 
> ...No, you throw something (anything) else, and THEN you get the tennis ball back!!!!
> 
> ...


With dogs like this, you always have to have two balls going at once since they'll only drop the ball once they see about to throw another one. I'm sure you're not suggesting he should have two balls going at once.....


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

SecondTime'Round said:


> With dogs like this, you always have to have two balls going at once since they'll only drop the ball once they see about to throw another one. I'm sure you're not suggesting he should have two balls going at once.....


"The Ball" metaphorically speaking here would be a "sexual routine." I am suggesting he try something else in order to move forwards.

You can try different things with the same person and should not just focus on the one thing that gets you stuck.


PS: I was really hoping somebody would call out the fact that you can't treat a woman like a dog!


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Or, you can try the same things with a different person and should not just focus on the one person that gets you stuck.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

If the BJs are a very important aspect to any future relationship you wish to have, then the logical thing to do would be to end your current one before you find yourself bound and unhappy in the future.

You're experienced enough from your first marriage (I hope) to know that people do not fundamentally change unless they desire to with all their heart. Only then must they go through a trial period where they demonstrate the ability to change. Just because she says (or you think) that things will improve does not make them so.

It's not wrong for your fiancee to dislike BJs, some women simply do not like them, therefore what she needs is a man who does not find them to be necessary for an intimate bond or connection. That man is not you from the sounds of it.

There are many women in the world that love giving a BJ and are more than willing to do so without prompting or begging. If this is what you desire then it is for you to go and find it and not settle for someone that cannot provide it for you.

Right about here after all the responses you've received, i'd expect to read a response from you saying "but everything else is great." Well, again, I would ask you to prioritize what is important to YOU and decide accordingly. 

It's not bad to have found this out now... better now than when you're legally married. This is why we date. Look at it as a necessary learning experience.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Married but Happy said:


> Or, you can try the same things with a different person and should not just focus on the one person that gets you stuck.


I admit I do this all the time while masturbating. For example, the teenage version of myself was a freaking prude when it came to ideas for pleasuring myself. Now I am with a version of myself that knows what I like, although I do sometimes go through tough times when I get focussed on not letting myself buy the Cobra Libre because it is too expensive.


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## Blacksmith01 (Aug 12, 2013)

SARAHMCD said:


> I'm concerned that you are just discovering this aversion of hers a year into the relationship and after you have proposed marriage. Learning from your first marriage that sex is very important to you and your happiness you should have tested this compatibility early on. I would say to work with her on this but her reaction was not just "I'm uncomfortable doing that" but rather "hell no!"and then to leave and not speak to you.....very strange. It's possible there is a history of abuse here. It's certainly worth sitting her down to try to discuss. She needs to understand how important sex is to you.
> But if you let it go now.....yes, you're in for a virtually sexless marriage again.


I agree 100%. I had a girlfriend awhile back that shut down when this subject came up. Turns out that while she was a kids she spent years being forced to do this act by her brother and his friends. Time to run fast and far brother.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

I'm the first person to suggest working it out if you find yourself already married to someone and discover you're sexually incompatible. 

The fact of the matter is though that your odds of working it out successfully once you get to that point aren't always great. 

You've been given an important gift in discovering this incompatibility before marriage. Don't waste it. Call the wedding off. 

Maybe she'll find herself sexually some day and maybe she won't, but you should never marry based on hoping a person changes in the future.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

I personally believe that in most cases the sex a couple has at the beginning when they are the most hot for each other and when the attraction is at the highest, sets the bar for how the sex is going to be for the remainder of their relationship. I think it's very rare that the sex goes beyond that bar. You can bring it back to that bar but not very often go beyond it. If it's sub par at the beginning, it's going to be sub par or even worse after the wedding. I think when you are totally into someone, you'll do almost anything to please them. (My views are different if there has been CSA.)


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

peacem said:


> My opinion. I don't think a particular sex act and the refusal to take part in it should mean the end of a relationship. There are things my H will not do, there is a least one thing I am definitely not comfortable with. A loving relationship can overcome this. However, as your F appears to enjoy receiving oral sex my alarm bells are ringing not so much because of the sex but because of a one-side selfishness. This can lead to other areas in your life where you will be playing second fiddle to her needs. This may be ok in the first flush of love, but after 20 years your spirit will be well and truly crushed and you will most certainly start resenting it.


Yeah, this.

It isn't _really_ about what she will or won't do. It's about how she handled it.

Look, if there's something (anything) you don't want to do, don't ever make the other person feel like a piece of garbage for wanting to do it.

THAT'S why I'd run from this, not her reluctance to do the act.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

> She said it was demeaning and she would never "put that thing anywhere near my face".


This is the worst. It's not even as if she's going to try to improve.

I dated a guy for 2 years who neither wanted to go down on me or _even use his hands_...... Despite the fact that he had no problems asking me to do him.

Every attempt to discuss the matter with him got derailed with his "I don't know what YOU'RE comfortable with." What a way to turn it around. 

It came to a head when he bargained with me and told me that he would go down on me if I got an HIV test. I never got one. So then he told me that was ok, we could have sex anyway. 

I'm just telling you this story because when you start launching procedures with her, she maystart bargaining as well.

It would be too bad if she had been sexually abused as child. Are you ready to open up that discussion?


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

grear said:


> Ok maybe the title is a little extreme but that's how I feel right now. I've been dating an awesome woman for a year now and she made me wait 5 month before we had sex. She's 8 years younger than me and while I was previously married for 11 years, she has only had one other sexual relationship in her life. My last marriage ended due to infidelity on my ex's part and during the last 3 years of our marriage, we had sex less than 10 times. A sexless marriage sucks and that's not something I want to go through again. With all that being said, sex with my fiance has been good for the most part. It's mainly just been standard intercourse with me giving her oral sex. She never gave me blow jobs in the beginning and I never pushed the issue. Still, I wondered why she never did that since I would always happily go down on her. We were getting intimate last night and I told her to give me a blow job. She looked at me like I just stole the last apple and she said she doesn't do that. She said it was demeaning and she would never "put that thing anywhere near my face". She got so worked up about it that she killed the mood and made me leave her apartment. I've been texting her all day and she hasn't responded because she says she needs time to herself. I'm so upset because I don't think giving a blow job is demeaning but she is acting like I demanded a blood diamond from her. I don't know if it's just my emotions getting the best of me but I'm strongly considering cancelling the wedding and just moving on with my life. I figure that if she is dictating what is right and wrong at this stage of the relationship. I may be already headed towards another sexless marriage. Still, I'm confused about what to do because I really love her. Has anyone been in a situation like this before? Any advice would be appreciated.


I (as a woman) think that is seriously weird and a real red flag. Why would that be "demeaning" if you are in love? Especially if you are going down on her?

I see threads on here where men can't get BJ's from their wives, so maybe it's more common that I would think, but her attitude, that she got so worked up over it, it's just ...weird to me and makes me think there's a lot of stuff going on inside her head about men and women that you're not yet aware of.

"That thing" ??? "That thing" should be a great source of joy to her, not something that freaks her out!

Also - notice that sex seldom gets better AFTER marriage. You read all kinds of men who say their fiance was insatiable before marriage then lost all desire after the nuptials. So if she's like this now, I'd worry that yes, you might be headed for a sexless marriage.

My husband is very reserved and seldom kisses me and won't go down on me BTW - I think if I asked/insisted, he would do it, but I can't now because I'm convinced the idea grosses him out, so I can't enjoy it. I'm not that high of sex drive anymore (probably in part due to things like that) so it is not something I'm thinking about all the time, but it is a disappointment, just the lack of fun/abandon/hotness that I've had with other partners that I can't seem to ever get to with him. 

As a man, you're probably higher sex drive and this could really kill your marriage. At the very least I would try to get her to open up and talk to you about it. Good luck...


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Whether there is csa in her past or not isn't even relevant if she's unwilling to address it. 

If she suffered abuse or if she just thinks penises are icky...same result. Either she chooses to stay the way she is or she chooses to try to change her mind about things. But that needs to happen BEFORE marriage, not after.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

NextTimeAround said:


> ...It would be too bad if she had been sexually abused as child. Are you ready to open up that discussion?...


I wonder about this too. It seems like a really extreme/odd reaction. Especially in this day and age when it's well known that most people do that.


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## leon2100 (May 13, 2015)

is she rich? Does her dad own a liquor store?


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

peacem said:


> There are things my H will not do, there is at least one thing I am definitely not comfortable with.





soccermom2three said:


> I think when you are totally into someone, you'll do almost anything to please them.


I think both of these statements are true, but there is always a line. Usually oral IS considered fairly tame and I think most healthy couples reach the line of "sexually uncomfortable" based on things that instinctually seem harmful. One couple may draw the line at the back door, while another may draw it at the suggestion of oversized toys, but usually oral is considered very safe compared to PIV with regards to an unplanned pregnancy risk.

In your case this does seem very off, unless she had a traumatic experience with oral that she has not shared with you.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Bugged said:


> I have a tendency to think threads like this one are hoaxes...I mean..*would ANYONE really call a wedding off because of the lack of bjs?:*scratchhead::scratchhead:
> 
> Anyway OP, yes, you should dump her, if she's really that awesome she deserves better...
> 
> ...


I ended a 2 year relationship with a guy who said he interesred in marrying me. I'm not sure that he was, but that's what he said. I felt that he was selfish in bed -- he getting his and then trying to avoid giving me mine.

I tried to have an open and honest dialgoue with him and all that it did was push him against the wall to create lie after lie to avoid the truth. I asked him did I smell bad? He said no, in fact when I warmed up, I smelled very nice, he said. Do you have a problem touching it? Then he would fall back on "But I don't know what you're comfortable with." And round and round we go......

Sexual compatibility is very important. And I don't understand why anyone would avoid sex before marriage for that reason. 

It was a lot easier and cheaper to tell him to F>ck off, than to hire a lawyer to do it for me.

For those who are curious, I think he was a closet gay..


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

I think everyone, including the OP Grear, is missing the most important point. She has already called it off. She shut down communication because he asked. Grear would be better off waiting for a week or two, perhaps she will throw the engagement ring back at him because he is such a disgusting person in her mind. 

@ satya, It is not wrong for the fiance to dislike BJ's, What is wrong is for her to think that him performing oral is loving and good and for her to perform oral is disgusting and demeaning. This double standard is hurtful. It is in essence saying that it is ok if you are demeaned but I won't be. There is no other explanation for this than entitled selfishness.

@ Bugged, Weddings are called off for any number of things. Sex is a major part of a married relationship, even if it is Evil.

MN


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Bugged said:


> Honestly i don't think you had real feelings for this person...I hope you'll find someone as PERFECT and selfless as you> He may not have had real feelings for me either since he may have been looking for a beard.
> 
> but i wouldn't threadjack..nor would I OP says he loves her very much...oh yes...so much that a bj is more important than her...
> the comprehensive issue here is sexual compatibility. Many spouses have chosen to cheat on their partners and justify it by accusing them for not attending to their every need including sex. An ounce of prevention is worth more than a pound of cure.
> ...


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

OP,
I would suggest that you calmly and rationally sit down and have a conversation with her regarding this issue. There are incongruities in your post. You said that she considered it demeaning and belittling to perform a blow job. How is it that she allows her betrothed to demean and belittle himself? Is she saying that your demeaning yourself is not significant in her eyes? If so, then what exactly is your value to her that she would allow you to belittle yourself in such a way? Can she respect such a person? Does she?

This situation poses questions that I feel are of far more importance than simple fellatio. Questions that I would want answers to before pledging my eternal, undying love to her. What has diminished the penis and caused it to be banned in this way to the point of not being allowed "anywhere near her face". There appear to be some significant programming errors that have occurred in her past and this may be but the tip of the iceberg. I would strongly suggest that you delve further into this area before taking a vow.

This may all be moot at this point as she is not contacting you back and does not have enough respect for you to even entertain a conversation over something that is apparently very important to you. The wedding may already be off and you simply have not been notified as yet. In any event I would certainly try to discover the root issue here if you want to enter into marriage with her. You may find a closet with more skeletons than you care to clean out. Good fortune to you.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
OP, only YOU can know what is important to you. Don't expect her behavior to ever change. Will you be happy together, or will your feel resentful for what you are denied?

Is she perfect in every other way?

A happy sex life is critical to a happy marriage. If BJs are important to you, then there is nothing wrong with deciding not to get married. (you don't need to be specific, just apologize and let her know that you do not feel like you are sexually compatible).

OTOH if BJs don't mean much to you, and you can do without for the rest of your life, then go ahead and get married.

Just do not expect she will change, and do not marry someone you will resent - that will not be happy for either of you


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening bugged
I think it could well be real. A good sex life is very important to many people's happiness, and missing out on oral sex is missing a big part of that. Better that they break up now, then they he resent her for decades to come.

I know that for some people this seems a trivial issue, but it really really matters to some people.




Bugged said:


> I have a tendency to think threads like this one are hoaxes...I mean..would ANYONE really call a wedding off because of the lack of bjs?:scratchhead::scratchhead:
> 
> Anyway OP, yes, you should dump her, if she's really that awesome she deserves better...
> 
> ...


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Bugged said:


> I have a tendency to think threads like this one are hoaxes...I mean..*would ANYONE really call a wedding off because of the lack of bjs?:*scratchhead::scratchhead:
> 
> Anyway OP, yes, you should dump her, if she's really that awesome she deserves better...
> 
> ...


Well, yes. As is apparent from every other commenter (male or female) on this thread.


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## Rugs (Apr 12, 2013)

I am surprised anyone would go so far as to get engaged without knowing this very important fact. AND, you've been married before so you know a little something about marriage. 

No, I would not marry this person. You are not compatable. And you should not expect or ask her to change. She doesn't like it so you both need to find someone you are comfortable and compatable with.

Best of luck!


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

NextTimeAround said:


> ...Then he would fall back on "But I don't know what you're comfortable with." And round and round we go......


That is so weasely/manipulative. The ole "I'm pretending I'm doing you a favor by doing what I want and not what you want...." It makes my skin crawl.


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## 241happyhour (Jan 31, 2011)

She is definitely not the one---Next please.


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## BryanB (Jul 5, 2015)

grear said:


> Ok maybe the title is a little extreme but that's how I feel right now. I've been dating an awesome woman for a year now and she made me wait 5 month before we had sex. She's 8 years younger than me and while I was previously married for 11 years, she has only had one other sexual relationship in her life. My last marriage ended due to infidelity on my ex's part and during the last 3 years of our marriage, we had sex less than 10 times. A sexless marriage sucks and that's not something I want to go through again. With all that being said, sex with my fiance has been good for the most part. It's mainly just been standard intercourse with me giving her oral sex. She never gave me blow jobs in the beginning and I never pushed the issue. Still, I wondered why she never did that since I would always happily go down on her. We were getting intimate last night and I told her to give me a blow job. She looked at me like I just stole the last apple and she said she doesn't do that. She said it was demeaning and she would never "put that thing anywhere near my face". She got so worked up about it that she killed the mood and made me leave her apartment. I've been texting her all day and she hasn't responded because she says she needs time to herself. I'm so upset because I don't think giving a blow job is demeaning but she is acting like I demanded a blood diamond from her. I don't know if it's just my emotions getting the best of me but I'm strongly considering cancelling the wedding and just moving on with my life. I figure that if she is dictating what is right and wrong at this stage of the relationship. I may be already headed towards another sexless marriage. Still, I'm confused about what to do because I really love her. Has anyone been in a situation like this before? Any advice would be appreciated.


Probably you should. And for the fact that she accepts oral sex from you but unwilling to give it points to a much bigger problem you might have in the future. If you do enjoy oral sex why marry a girl that doesn’t like it. Sexual compatibility is crucial to the success of any relationship but it in my opinion it’s the most important aspect of marriage. I don’t anyone should base their marriage only on sex alone oral or not.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

Personal said:


> [...] although I haven't actually called a wedding off, I have ended relationships because of sexual incompatibility.


As have I. I'm also in the boat that believes sexual compatibility is quite essential for a strong bond and satisfying partnership.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Bugged said:


> I'm saying that if you value sex more than people..something's really off and you better assess your priorities asap...


This is very true. I definitely value people more than sex. However, while that is true and the quality of a person is essential, sexual compatibility is also essential for a romantic relationship.

You're also right that awesome SOs don't grow on trees, and often compromises must be made. Each person has to decide WHICH compromises are acceptable, and which are not. Personally, I'd rather be alone than give up anything I find essential.
Having had a sexless first marriage, I will not compromise on sex (quality, frequency, etc.) in any future relationship. As it turned out, I didn't have to.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

It's too bad the OP has hit us with a Post and Run today. If it was truely a hoax he would continue trickling in the facts. Perhaps she picked up the phone and decided to discuss it with him. Who knows now. 

Bugged really is on track at this point. The question the OP had is "Do I chose the person, or the sex life I want?" I've got to say there are a lot of really great people in my life. I call them friends, mentors, and associates. But the person I chose to link my life with needed to be more than that. She needed to have the ability to join me on an intimate sexual level that I don't share with any other great person. So yes that is the difference that separates her from the large tree full of really great people. That intimacey, that giving and recieving, that total acceptance is why I want to spend lots and lots of quality time with her. 

What has happened to Grear is a total rejection. With vehement labels and harsh feelings. The relationship will probably die on this rock. We can annalyze all week, but in the end he wanted total acceptance and he got vehement rejection. She probably feels exactly the same. She probably thinks that everythig was going so well then he asked for what I couldn't give and I can't trust him any more. 

When we bare our bodies for sex we symbolicly bare our souls to our partner. It is at this most vulnerable time that the biggest hurts to a relationship come. That is why we are all asking for sexual compatibility.
MN


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

If someone told me, "I don't want that thing anywhere near my face", as the OP's fiancé did, I would be done. That statement right there tells me that they have hangups and issues about sex. That's way more than just not liking one act. The OP has only invested a year, not a big deal in the scheme of things. As WOM said in his post, dating is to find out compatibility.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Married but Happy said:


> You can always get a second retriever who does play nice. Second wives aren't legal - yet. Thus it is necessary to pick a good one-only future wife.



My wife's grandfather did it and it actually worked great! Two sets of gifts for Ramadan!!!

If you're the OP I concur with the choir. Bail out. But due to the 5 months part, not the BJ part.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

malonne said:


> If you tell her you're calling off the wedding because she won't give you a bj, guess what..she'll start giving you just enough bjs to get to the alter. Once you exchange vows you'll never get another one.


So true, so true. Just enough BJs to bait the trap.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## unblinded (May 27, 2015)

grear said:


> Ok maybe the title is a little extreme but that's how I feel right now. I've been dating an awesome woman for a year now and she made me wait 5 month before we had sex. She's 8 years younger than me and while I was previously married for 11 years, she has only had one other sexual relationship in her life. My last marriage ended due to infidelity on my ex's part and during the last 3 years of our marriage, we had sex less than 10 times. A sexless marriage sucks and that's not something I want to go through again. With all that being said, sex with my fiance has been good for the most part. It's mainly just been standard intercourse with me giving her oral sex. She never gave me blow jobs in the beginning and I never pushed the issue. Still, I wondered why she never did that since I would always happily go down on her. *We were getting intimate last night and I told her to give me a blow job.* She looked at me like I just stole the last apple and she said she doesn't do that. She said it was demeaning and she would never "put that thing anywhere near my face". She got so worked up about it that she killed the mood and made me leave her apartment. I've been texting her all day and she hasn't responded because she says she needs time to herself. I'm so upset because I don't think giving a blow job is demeaning but she is acting like I demanded a blood diamond from her. I don't know if it's just my emotions getting the best of me but I'm strongly considering cancelling the wedding and just moving on with my life. I figure that if she is dictating what is right and wrong at this stage of the relationship. I may be already headed towards another sexless marriage. Still, I'm confused about what to do because I really love her. Has anyone been in a situation like this before? Any advice would be appreciated.


(I haven't gone through the entire thread, so this may be a repeat.)

So...the bolded part...did you say it like that?


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## Happilymarried25 (Mar 19, 2014)

For one you should have asked her not told her to give you a BJ, but if she doesn't like doing it then don't marry her. Even if your next girlfriend does give you BJ's it doesn't mean she will continue to if you do marry her as a lot of men here have mentioned something about putting on that wedding ring tends to change womens minds about wanting to give BJ's.


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## Decorum (Sep 7, 2012)

8 years younger and all she wants is vanilla sex? You must not think very highly of yourself. You guys will not make it, don't fall in love with women in there 20s (I am assuming) Next.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Drive by poster


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening Bugged
I met my future wife when I was 17. We dated on and off, mostly on for 6 years then got married. I'm in my 50s now. I was attracted to her when we first met, fell in love, and and have remained deeply in love with her for most of my life. We have a life many would envy, not just for our "stuff", or the things we do, but for how happy we are together. I will be with her as long as we both live.

but - there is a darker side.

When we meet I was very sexually inexperienced. I was intimate with other women during our breakups - had fun exciting sex. Later when we were together again, my wife an I had very limited intimacy. She was shy, reserved - and while I would do anything for her, there was very little she would do for me. Sex was just not something that mattered to her. 

In my ignorance, I just assumed things would get better. I didn't know how much variation there was in people's level of sexual interest. It didn't get better for decades. Finally over the last few years, I have managed to convince her how important sex is to me and she is trying. But even her best "trying" is far short of what I might have hoped for. I love her, but I've lost an important part of my life.

I still don't have much experience, but from many discussion boards, I think oral sex is a bellweather for overall sexual interest. Someone who does not enjoy (at least as a gift) oral is unlikely to be the sort of passionate lover that *some* people want. 

I'm not saying everyone must do oral, but I think it is important that couples be compatible. There are many people who are not sexual by nature - that's fine, but they should be with each other.

Could I have found someome else as wonderful as my wife but who did love sex? I'll never know. It hurts though that I have to wonder. 






Bugged said:


> I'll quote you but I could quote @Buddy400 or others..
> 
> sometimes when I read threads like these I feel like I live in wonderland...
> 
> ...


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## donny64 (Apr 21, 2012)

> She looked at me like I just stole the last apple and she said she doesn't do that. She said it was demeaning and she would never "put that thing anywhere near my face".


Won't tell you what to do, but will say if it were me I'd be running like a starved leopard was hot on my heels.

BJ's are a bit of a sexual litmus test for me. If they don't give them and don't seem to enjoy them, sex will suffer. Couple that with the "she would never put that thing anywhere near her face" and for me, I'd have all the facts needed to tell me her thoughts on sex, and just what my sex life would be like once her hooks were solidly in (marriage / children). 

No thank you.

It's not your emotions getting the better part of you. It's your logical brain warning you of impending badness in your life.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

malonne said:


> If you tell her you're calling off the wedding because she won't give you a bj, guess what..she'll start giving you just enough bjs to get to the alter. Once you exchange vows you'll never get another one.


yeah, if I withheld sex long enough, he would go down on me.

That's not an ideal way to conduct a relationship.

Find someone who wants what you want without even asking.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Bugged said:


> My family is better off than my partner's family..I went to an exclusive university...I still have some guys contacting me on FB from time to time...most of those are stinking rich...one in particular had a thing for me..he had so much money that his father had a private Jet...
> If i had been with someone like that i wouldn't need to work..I could just paint and travel and my life would be a dream...I should probably dump my partner's _proletarian _ass for good...doesn't matter if he's the best person I've ever met...:grin2:
> 
> 
> ...


Well, we won't be keeping you.

Maybe your time (and money) will be better spent seeing a therapist so that you can make peace with the fact that you married a poor boy.

Stop hassling us who explore these decisions before getting married.


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## F-102 (Sep 15, 2010)

malonne said:


> If you tell her you're calling off the wedding because she won't give you a bj, guess what..she'll start giving you just enough bjs to get to the alter. Once you exchange vows you'll never get another one.


Q: Why are brides always smiling in their wedding photos?

A: Because they've given their last blow job!


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## grear (Jul 5, 2015)

unblinded said:


> (I haven't gone through the entire thread, so this may be a repeat.)
> 
> So...the bolded part...did you say it like that?


I didn't say it like that. I told her that it would be nice if she gave me oral sex like I gave her. She didn't get the message so I told her to give me oral sex because I missed that feeling. 

Anyway, I appreciate all the advice even thought I'm surprised to see that most people here recommend that I leave her. I will admit that I'm a bit torn now. On one hand, I can sex our sex life being miserable within the next 2-3 years based on how things are going now. On the other hand, I love this woman to death and besides the sexual issue, she is the perfect woman for me. I was wondering earlier if it's selfish of me to want to break up with her over something so small and I was wondering if I should try to overlook this hoping that she might change. Maybe that's crazy thinking but I just wish there was some other alternative because although I wish to keep her, it looks like that might be a bad idea.


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## F-102 (Sep 15, 2010)

But seriously, the big issue for me would not be the BJs or lack thereof; the way she reacted IS the big issue. 

Now, if she would have said that she doesn't like to do this and that it makes her uncomfortable, I would be quite willing to work around it, and I wouldn't force her to do it again. (BTW, I hoped you ASKED her and didn't DEMAND it) 

But when she said it was DEMEANING, that would be the only reason I'd need to leave her. It sounds like she is really a selfish and manipulative woman who will use that word to push you around and walk all over you for the rest of you married life. And don't kid yourself; right now she's waiting for you to come crawling to her, begging for forgiveness and another chance, and she's probably got a legion of "toxic" friends who are telling her to do just this. And if you do that, she will OWN you. 

So, what happens later when you're married and you ask her to do anything, like cook something special, or to pick up something for you on the way home, or to dress up for a special occasion, or to be intimate with you? What happens if the discussion of kids comes up? You guessed it: she will start screaming "Demeaning, degrading, controlling, chauvinistic...etc.

And then when she said that she would never put "that THING" anywhere near her face, well, it sounds like she doesn't exactly hold you in the highest esteem.

Call off the wedding.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Well, grear, at least this thread has got you thinking. If you can be happy without ever receiving oral, then maybe this is the right relationship for you. If not, then you have a difficult decision even if it is a clear decision. You can be very sure that she will NOT change her attitude on this issue, though, so please do not entertain any false hopes.

Perhaps an experiment could help clarify both your attitudes. Stop giving her oral - do all the other things, and change nothing else. See what develops. If she asks, you can say that you had been doing it to please her, but given her attitude, you realize that you don't want that near your face. How will she respond? Her response may tell you all you need to know, if you don't already know. 

(NOTE: Women do NOT require oral to get off - manual techniques are just as effective if you use lube - she may like or prefer oral, but it is no more necessary for her to receive it than it is for you. It is a matter of pleasure, different sensations, and wanting to please your partner in a variety of ways.)


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## grear (Jul 5, 2015)

That's really a good idea. I'll try to stop giving her oral and see how she reacts. It sucks to think about because I not only enjoy giving her oral, but I do it because it makes her happy. I don't see why I can't get the same courtesy but you're right. If she is dictating things like this now, it will get much worse once we are married. It sucks but I guess it's better to learn this now rather than waiting until we are married and realizing that everything has gotten worse.


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## SecondTime'Round (Jan 15, 2015)

grear said:


> That's really a good idea. I'll try to stop giving her oral and see how she reacts. It sucks to think about because I not only enjoy giving her oral, but I do it because it makes her happy. I don't see why I can't get the same courtesy but you're right. If she is dictating things like this now, it will get much worse once we are married. It sucks but I guess it's better to learn this now rather than waiting until we are married and realizing that everything has gotten worse.


Have you ever tried to talk about this when you're not in the throes of passion? Like while you're taking a walk or something? The way you described the event, you did TELL her to do it "when she didn't get the message." THAT is a turnoff (unless you're into that sort of thing....being told what to do). I don't think this is an issue that you should just drop, but I think you need a better method of trying to get her to be willing to at least try it. For example, have her do it while in the shower......


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Bugged said:


> Actually he said that their sex life was good...>
> 
> Anyway, better for her too. I don't know what i would think of someone dumping their *awesome* SO for bjs..it just doesn't make sense...:laugh: either he's incapable of judgment or ..I dunno...whatever>
> I was just giving a different POV...I wasn't being polemic


 @Bugged, with all due respect, I don't think you're getting the actual issue here (same with the other thread we're involved in).

It's rarely the actual act itself that's the issue. In this case, especially, it's her handling of the topic that is.

It's not always lowest-common-denominator, wherein you're looking at it as purely a "omg, he's not getting oral sex, what a tragedy! /sarcasm" whereas it took this guy almost a year to even broach the subject (so clearly it's not a high priority...) and his fiancee made him out to be some sort of pervert.

Yes, two people can live without something like oral sex - provided the subject is discussed mutually and respectfully. I'm willing to bet OP would have been more than willing to go without, provided his fiancee did not go off the deep end at the mere suggestion of it, and consequently make him feel like a piece of trash in the process.
@Bugged, you clearly have something major against BJ's, and that is fine. It's your prerogative. But you're not seeing the forest for the trees in regards to this subject. When you hear the words "blow job" or "oral sex", your mind is going straight to the word "demeaning", and you're not seeing any further than that. Which is, again, okay.

However I'm not sure it qualifies you to discuss the subject and how it relates to marriage, or just simply a relationship. Between this thread and the other one on the same subject, you seem to be glossing over the myriad of people (including many many women) who share the views that oral sex is (or can be) a positive aspect to one's sexuality, not a demeaning and negative one.

Please also remember that OP's fiancee gladly accepted oral sex performed on her, yet abjectly refused to perform it for him.

Whatever her reasons are for despising it so much, she has no right to accept it from him, yet make him feel like he's insane for wanting her to do it in return.


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## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

I have never met a female that didn't enjoy showing off her oral skills as a prelude to intercourse. Its like a natural progression. From that observation, it seems that this woman is just hung up for some reason, and the sex area is just never going to be satisfying. Are there going to be other sex aversions looming? 

Calling off a wedding over this does seem extreme, but it may be only a symptom of more problems. Its a shame you didn't realize this incompatibility earlier.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

grear said:


> That's really a good idea. I'll try to stop giving her oral and see how she reacts. It sucks to think about because I not only enjoy giving her oral, but I do it because it makes her happy. I don't see why I can't get the same courtesy but you're right.


Although this may seem like a good idea, I'd strongly suggest against it, as it's a rather passive-aggressive tactic to take, and has a high chance of backfiring on you in the worst way.

The reality is that her receiving oral sex from you is likely not nearly worth her having to do the same for you. Sure, she might miss it, or really want it, but the cost is probably too high for her in the end (given how she reacted).

Communication is really your only avenue at this point. You are not married yet, so you have some time. You seem to be willing to give her another chance, so use it wisely. Have a good, honest discussion with her about the subject - without trying to get her to see things your way. Rather, try to see things her way. This isn't about you, it's about her, and she needs to know that, and trust that you aren't talking to her about the subject so that you can try to "fix" her.

There's a reason she reacted the way she did. She doesn't owe you oral sex, but she DOES owe you an explanation. If the two of you are going to be married, then you each need to understand each other first in order for it to be successful.

If one partner is going to have to live without something the rest of their lives, then there should be a reason attached to it. You don't necessarily have to understand, or agree with, that reason, but there needs to be one.

"I don't like doing that" is not usually a good enough reason for most people. I don't accept it from my wife, but to be honest, there's been a compromise as far as she and I are concerned, and it's not a subject I'm wiling to risk broaching with her again. My wife won't give oral sex unless it's part of foreplay. Why she won't do it on it's own from time to time is a mystery to me. If there's a deeper reason for her other than "I don't like doing that", then I'd be wholly accepting of it, I have no doubt. But as things stand now, it's a rejection of my desires (not _needs_, but desires).

And if there is a deeper reason for her not wanting to do this for me, then there's a lack of trust on her part for not wanting to tell me what this reason is, which doesn't make me feel very good, either.

So it's a bit of a catch-22, isn't it? I'm not important enough to bother doing something like that for, or our bond isn't tight enough for her to tell me what the actual reason is, if there is one.

You have the luxury of delving deeper BEFORE you take the big plunge, so I suggest that you try to do this. I'm not saying AT ALL that I wouldn't have married my wife, by the way. I'm just saying that you have the chance to get some things out of the way before they possibly become an issue later on down the road. I am lucky in that a compromise was reached in my case. Not all people are so fortunate.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

If she didn't like you giving oral to you then i would say she has an aversion to this particular aspect of sex, but she seems to have no problems in that department. The fact she will not reciprocate suggests perhaps you are not the love of her life after all. You are right to consider calling it off if it is very important to you.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Bugged said:


> It's not clear to me why *YOU *cannot accept, like others, that there are also many(or some or whatever people) that DO think it's demeaning (I actually find it gross )...exactly like in the other thread..as I said it's a social construct so _some_ people think it's demeaning..*why can't you accept that*?


I DO accept it, and I think I've made that clear by continually letting you know that it's okay that you feel this way, and that you are absolutely entitled to your opinion. I can't possibly argue something like this with you, and I haven't been trying to. I can't convince you that it's not at all demeaning any more than you can convince me that it IS demeaning.

What I can "argue" with you is that your entire reasoning behind why YOU don't do it is gender-related. Penis-in-mouth is demeaning. I haven't heard you say mouth-on-vagina is demeaning (though I will assume you agree with that statement, as well, and I'm not being sarcastic).

So on the whole, the idea of providing pleasure to one's partner is demeaning to you - which is a concept I can not get behind at all. AT ALL.

Yes, oral sex CAN be demeaning. It absolutely can. I believe I gave examples of this in the other thread about BJ's. Telling somebody to do it. Using her (or his) mouth as an opening while you hold her head. Pulling out and finishing on her face (or other places). etc etc etc. These are generally not things most people enjoy having done to them, but some do. Oral sex (blowjobs in particular) certainly CAN be a purely selfish act on the part of the man. But that is not how all (or even most) men are, I promise you.

The reality is that the woman is in control 9 x out of 10.

From a male perspective, we are allowing somebody to put our most sensitive body part - the thing that almost defines our entire sexuality and masculinity - into the hands (mouth...) of somebody we hopefully trust enough to not hurt us. Don't downplay the symbolism of this act from the male perspective. There's FAR more trust involved in this act on our parts then you may imagine, and the symbolism is not lost on many of us, myself included.

The issue I have with your take on this subject is that you are defining this one act based on generalities and the sexist belief (yes, I went there) that all men see it as some sort of dominance on their part, and subservience on yours.

I can promise you, that's not the case. SOME men are like that, but guess what? Some women are, too. And some women ARE subservient (as is their right), and so are some men. I would fall into that category, I admit. I wouldn't mind in the slightest if my partner demanded I go down on her on the couch.


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## Hardtohandle (Jan 10, 2013)

Bugged said:


> It's not clear to me why *
> Being a programmer do you know how many unsolicited porn banners I have seen(ok, my fault...people shouldn't get into hacking...>)?
> *


*

Stop looking at porn related sites or sites categorized as porn sites and you won't get porn banners in those iframes on the side..

You don't get porn banners from looking at mortgage calculator sites.. 

But as for the OP..

Gear, your 3 post speak volumes about you.. You my friend are codependent and fear to be alone.. 

She is the perfect woman for you ? Really.. 

You like going down on her because it makes her feel good ? 

Dude therapy please.. 

And if you think I'm being snarky and coming off all holier than thou.. I am not.. 

I am speaking from experience because I've been there.. Read the last 10 pages of my thread labeled mymistake in my sig.. It talks about my Ex GF.. 

I've been through your issues. Its painful.. 
I just broke with a woman I've been dating for almost 2 years and she did just about everything I asked.. There was one thing she wouldn't give up until we were engaged or married.. But her answer was once I am your wife I have to do what you want me to.. Even if she was faking it.. She still gave me the right answers..

But even with all of this I let her go because we were just not on the same page with raising our kids.. She was great at pleasing in bed for the most part but she sucked when it came to life issues..

Anyone will tell you SEX does matter. Heck even your saying it.. If sex didn't matter then we wouldn't see people complaining about a sexless marriage because it would be the norm and accepted.. 

Don't get me wrong but I used to think that Oral is what a girl gave a guy when she DIDN'T want to fvck him. Oddly enough my Ex GF would say just the opposite. Why would I give a guy head and not get something out of it myself.. I would rather fvck a guy.. I only do oral if I get it first.. This is what she told me and even with me I needed to take care of business either before or at the same time.. 

But again this isn't really your problem.. This is a symptom of your real issues.. 

Good luck*


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## F-102 (Sep 15, 2010)

Bugged said:


> It's not clear to me why *YOU *cannot accept, like others, that there are also many(or some or whatever people) that DO think it's demeaning (I actually find it gross )...exactly like in the other thread..as I said it's a social construct so _some_ people think it's demeaning..*why can't you accept that*?
> Being a programmer do you know how many unsolicited porn banners I have seen(ok, my fault...people shouldn't get into hacking...>)?
> When I was taking French boxing lesson, the lady's locker room was a mezzanine above the men's (in that gym we were 3 women maybe..:grin2...
> Do you want me to repeat what I've heard during those 10 years?
> ...


And her calling his member "That THING"...wasn't that demeaning?


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening Bugged
My midlife crisis was getting an airplane (I don't like Jaguars). Seriously though, this is not a recent issue. Our sexual incompatibility has been a big problem throughout our relationship. My problem is that I am too patient (passive?). I just assumed that over time she would learn to trust and love me and not be so inhibited about sex Its only in the last decade that I've come to understand that level of sexual desire is innate - not really something that changes over time.

It isn't oral sex itself, but that from what I have seen, not wanting to do something that is such a basic part of an sex life is in an indication of a general lack of sexual desire and adventurousness. That is OK by itself, but sexual incompatibility is poison for a relationship - and good reason to find someone else - early on, I'm not going to leave my wife at this point because of it.


I shouldn't have brought up money, I didn't want the thread to go that way. Its just frustrating that my friends think I'm so damned lucky. In most ways I am, but not all. I guess I'm pointing out how important sex is - if it isn't good, nothing else makes up for it.

Bugged - there are many men who also are not very adventurous about sex, and who enjoy other parts of life. You can, and I hope will find someone who is well matched to your interests. 








Bugged said:


> Dare I say that you sound like you're having a mid-life crisis? Trust me, I get it..I've been in a mid-life crisis my entire life...>
> 
> So ...What if I hadn't had Asperger's ?What if my parents had been loving?What if instead of Computer science I had chosen Art as my major? what if, what if, what if...
> 
> ...


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## T&T (Nov 16, 2012)

grear,

Why not just say you would like to see a sex therapist prior to marriage? Both of you...There may be a real reason as to why she has an aversion to oral. 

Explain to her how important a healthy sex life is to you. And, that's it's a priority that can't be overlooked. 

Take this opportunity to repair things prior to tying the knot. Many don't and suffer.

I see this as a positive situation that could potentially be worked out. If not, then you have a decision to make. Don't make that decision in haste.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Bugged said:


> It's not clear to me why *YOU *cannot accept, like others, that there are also many(or some or whatever people) that DO think it's demeaning (I actually find it gross )
> 
> ...I know that my partner was much more into it than me (YES happened a couple of times because HE wanted to do it..)


 @Bugged You may find it gross, but it sounds like your partner does not feel the same way. How have you worked out not having oral sex -- since you don't like it, but presumably your partner does? Does your partner harbor a grudge about it?

Perhaps the answer will help the OP.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

grear said:


> Ok maybe the title is a little extreme but that's how I feel right now. I've been dating an awesome woman for a year now and she made me wait 5 month before we had sex. She's 8 years younger than me and while I was previously married for 11 years, she has only had one other sexual relationship in her life. My last marriage ended due to infidelity on my ex's part and during the last 3 years of our marriage, we had sex less than 10 times. A sexless marriage sucks and that's not something I want to go through again. With all that being said, sex with my fiance has been good for the most part. It's mainly just been standard intercourse with me giving her oral sex. She never gave me blow jobs in the beginning and I never pushed the issue. Still, I wondered why she never did that since I would always happily go down on her. We were getting intimate last night and I told her to give me a blow job. She looked at me like I just stole the last apple and she said she doesn't do that. She said it was demeaning and she would never "put that thing anywhere near my face". She got so worked up about it that she killed the mood and made me leave her apartment. I've been texting her all day and she hasn't responded because she says she needs time to herself. I'm so upset because I don't think giving a blow job is demeaning but she is acting like I demanded a blood diamond from her. I don't know if it's just my emotions getting the best of me but I'm strongly considering cancelling the wedding and just moving on with my life. I figure that if she is dictating what is right and wrong at this stage of the relationship. I may be already headed towards another sexless marriage. Still, I'm confused about what to do because I really love her. Has anyone been in a situation like this before? Any advice would be appreciated.


Here's the thing.

Sex prior to marriage in many cases is the best it will ever get. Not all, but many.

You're sexually incompatible, and my guess is that it's downhill from here... why put yourself through that?

Sit her down, tell her how you feel -- focus on feeling unsatisfied rather than particular acts so she doesn't feel like a performer on a stage.

And then just tell her that you think you're a mismatch and walk away.

You've been to this rodeo before, and you know better.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

grear said:


> Ok maybe the title is a little extreme but that's how I feel right now. I've been dating an awesome woman for a year now and she made me wait 5 month before we had sex. She's 8 years younger than me and while I was previously married for 11 years, she has only had one other sexual relationship in her life. My last marriage ended due to infidelity on my ex's part and during the last 3 years of our marriage, we had sex less than 10 times. A sexless marriage sucks and that's not something I want to go through again. With all that being said, sex with my fiance has been good for the most part. It's mainly just been standard intercourse with me giving her oral sex. She never gave me blow jobs in the beginning and I never pushed the issue. Still, I wondered why she never did that since I would always happily go down on her. We were getting intimate last night and I told her to give me a blow job. She looked at me like I just stole the last apple and she said she doesn't do that. She said it was demeaning and she would never "put that thing anywhere near my face". She got so worked up about it that she killed the mood and made me leave her apartment. I've been texting her all day and she hasn't responded because she says she needs time to herself. I'm so upset because I don't think giving a blow job is demeaning but she is acting like I demanded a blood diamond from her. I don't know if it's just my emotions getting the best of me but I'm strongly considering cancelling the wedding and just moving on with my life. I figure that if she is dictating what is right and wrong at this stage of the relationship. I may be already headed towards another sexless marriage. Still, I'm confused about what to do because I really love her. Has anyone been in a situation like this before? Any advice would be appreciated.


I don't understand why you allowed yourself to get so close to this person. 

She made you wait 5 months for sex? And you came from sexless marriage? 

If sex is a priority to you, then marry someone that also makes sex a priority!


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## donny64 (Apr 21, 2012)

grear said:


> I didn't say it like that. I told her that it would be nice if she gave me oral sex like I gave her. She didn't get the message so I told her to give me oral sex because I missed that feeling.
> 
> Anyway, I appreciate all the advice even thought I'm surprised to see that most people here recommend that I leave her. I will admit that I'm a bit torn now. On one hand, I can sex our sex life being miserable within the next 2-3 years based on how things are going now. On the other hand, I love this woman to death and besides the sexual issue, she is the perfect woman for me. I was wondering earlier if it's selfish of me to want to break up with her over something so small and I was wondering if I should try to overlook this hoping that she might change. Maybe that's crazy thinking but I just wish there was some other alternative because although I wish to keep her, it looks like that might be a bad idea.


Here's the thing. Most people can "stand on their heads" for a year or two and be an "amazing partner" and seem like good marriage material. Sometime during year two is where the real them seems to start to show through. This seems like what you may be seeing now.

I can't understand why anyone would engage before year two was up, or marry before year three. Even the most manipulative people will have a very hard time not revealing how they really feel about almost all aspects of marriage and their potential marriage partner in that time. It gives enough time for the honey moon phase to be over and to get a good glimpse at what life will really be like for them.

I don't recall seeing a post here, or anywhere, where poor sex or a poor sex attitude improved a great deal after marriage. If it's bad now, it's likely only going to get worse. Considerably worse. Throw in financial stresses. Living together stresses. Children stresses. Boredom. Familiarity. They all conspire to suck the sex right out of a marriage unless both parties are REALLY into each other and both consider it important and are willing to work at it to balance it and make it a priority within the marriage.

"I'm not putting that thing anywhere near my face" speaks of a mindset that will not end well for you and your "thing" with this one. 

You have also failed her ch1t test after she told you to leave. She insulted you, then told you to leave, but you are blowing up her phone calling and texting her. You're showing her you will not stand up to her unreasonable crap. You're setting a bad precedent. She doesn't respect you. Had she respected you, and had you stayed off the phone, it would have been her blowing up your phone telling you she was sorry, she over reacted, and please come talk to her so she can tell you why she has issues with oral sex. That didn't happen. And it's a bad sign.

It's not unreasonable to anticipate receiving oral sex from an intimate partner. It is unreasonable to be insulting after receiving such a request.

Don't be one of the many people who visit here who say "I should have seen the signs" or "I saw the signs and ignored them, and now we are having sex three times a year while she just lays there". Try to get to the root of it and fix it. Barring those two things, for me, it would be time to walk.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

SadSamIAm said:


> I don't understand why you allowed yourself to get so close to this person.
> 
> She made you wait 5 months for sex? And you came from sexless marriage?
> 
> If sex is a priority to you, then marry someone that also makes sex a priority!


She made him wait to make sure it's not a priority for _him._

Because it's either not a priority for her, or she's not into him that way, or both. She knows what's up.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

marduk said:


> She made him wait to make sure it's not a priority for _him._
> 
> Because it's either not a priority for her, or she's not into him that way, or both. She knows what's up.


I have no idea why he proposed to her and no idea why she accepted.

I could see it if he didn't already have the experience of being in a sexless marriage. But he knows better.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

One thing is clear....from this point forward he's no victim. He's a volunteer.


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

OP,
Do you believe that waiting five months was virtuous on her part? Is it possible that she does not like sexual intimacy and was just putting it off as long as she thought she could? I would not discount that possibility. Additionally, have you ever heard that marriage is 50/50, give and take? It requires flexibility. Her attitude in this area shows none. I would be careful not to assume that this is the only area wherein she may be inflexible. Once married you may discover that sexual intimacy may diminish and demands may increase. Be forewarned and diligent in your efforts to expose this. Many have fallen victim to the "it will get better after we are married" fantasy only to find it gets worse.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

I broke up with a woman because of this. Your resentment will grow and eventually kill the marriage.

Run. Away.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

happy as a clam said:


> @Bugged You may find it gross, but it sounds like your partner does not feel the same way. How have you worked out not having oral sex -- since you don't like it, but presumably your partner does? Does your partner harbor a grudge about it?
> 
> Perhaps the answer will help the OP.


I don't mean to pick on Bugged (really, I don't) but I think it's fairly clear from her choice of words and tone on the subject that this is pretty much one of those "take it or leave it" scenarios as far as her partner is concerned. She is right, he is wrong. She throws him a bone or two and lets him perform oral sex on her. She sets him up for failure. "See? I told you I wouldn't like it". My opinion. Rather than truly making him happy (and thus strengthening the relationship), never mind - horrors! - trying to enjoy it for what it is. "Oh my god, that feels good, and I'm going to orgasm!"

Bugged, I like your personality and your "FU" attitude, I really do. I have many friends like that, and we have some great conversations that sometimes get heated, and then we laugh about it later on. But they all have one thing in common - I wouldn't dare have a relationship with them if I were in a position to.

Oral sex is not of any great importance to me, on it's own. It ranks well below many other things in terms of what I'm looking for in a partner. Most men feel the same way, I promise you. A BJ is not in the top 5 or 10 things we're looking for in a woman. And this is where you're going wrong - making the assumption that it is the ACT that is important.

It's not. Like anything in a relationship, sexual or non-sexual, it is a partners willingness to provide for (not cater to) the others needs, wants and desires.

And moreover, it is the partners reactions to these needs, wants and desires that is most important.

I don't understand many of the things my wife requires I do in our relationship, because they're not things I need, want or desire myself. But I understand that they are important to HER.

While this doesn't mean I do everything she requires of me at all times, I CERTAINLY don't minimize those requirements, belittle them, or her for requiring them.

Some would say a wife asking her husband to hold her purse is somehow demeaning to the man. You'd be surprised at how often some "bro" makes a comment at me. "Whipped much?" "Nice purse buddy!" etc. I'm not even kidding. But I, as many other men are, am comfortable doing this for her when needed. Why? Because I am comfortable with myself.

You are not comfortable with yourself.

At the point you're at, performing oral sex on your partner has absolutely nothing to do with his pleasure, no matter how he'd react to it. You haven't even given him a chance to be appreciative of an act of service like that. Rather, all you can think of is how YOU must look doing it, and what he MUST be thinking while you are. He's a man, he MUST be feeling likes he's in control. I'm all the way down here, underneath him, doing what HE wants me to do.

Whereas the truly feminist view of oral sex (man on woman or woman on man) is one of power and control for the GIVER, not the receiver. YOU'RE in control of his pleasure (or pain!). You have his manhood (literally and figuratively) in your grasp. He is NOT in control in any way, shape or form.

I honestly believe, Bugged, that oral sex is "gross" to you, because you've made it that way. Putting your lips or tongue on somebody's penis or vagina is just as "gross" as kissing them on the lips, or with your tongue. If it's the ejaculation that's gross, then ask your partner to please let you know beforehand, and you can get out of the way. My ex wife was like this. I didn't question her reasoning, or ask her to not do that. I respected it.

So, IMO, you're looking at giving and receiving oral sex in two totally opposite ways. Giving, it's subservient, and you are literally and symbolically "below" your partner. Receiving, you are not in control. Both are huge negatives for you.

I would take a stab and say that you are like this in the rest of your life, as well, not just in regards to sex and sexuality. This is a personality thing, not a sexual thing. Nobody likes to feel like they're being used, (most) people don't like to be subservient or take orders, and nobody likes to be taken advantage of.

But in a healthy relationship, there IS no taking advantage of the other. It IS tit-for-tat, or your Latin translation. That's EXACTLY what it is. That's what LIFE is. "Do unto others" is not just a metaphor for being nice to people.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

grear said:


> I didn't say it like that. I told her that it would be nice if she gave me oral sex like I gave her. She didn't get the message so I told her to give me oral sex because I missed that feeling.
> 
> Anyway, I appreciate all the advice even thought I'm surprised to see that most people here recommend that I leave her. I will admit that I'm a bit torn now. On one hand, I can sex our sex life being miserable within the next 2-3 years based on how things are going now. On the other hand, I love this woman to death and besides the sexual issue, she is the perfect woman for me. *I was wondering earlier if it's selfish of me to want to break up with her over something so small and I was wondering if I should try to overlook this hoping that she might change*. Maybe that's crazy thinking but I just wish there was some other alternative because although I wish to keep her, it looks like that might be a bad idea.


Yes it is selfish because you are looking out for your future happiness and contentment. The dating and engagement process is like a job interview. She either proves herself to be a compatible partner to you or she fails. It really is that simple. 

Yeah we get that you love her, but understand that this intense love you feel will fade in a couple of years after the shine has worn off the penny. Then where will you be? Stuck with a woman who is selfish sexually. I guarantee you she is only just giving you the bare essentials sexually to keep you interested. Once you are married and she has her hooks in you, watch as she withdraws sex almost completely.

You think we're joking? Wander over to the Sex in Marriage forum and read the reams and reams of threads from disillusioned husbands and wives who's spouses basically tricked them into marrying them by having mediocre sex, only to take that sex completely away once the rings were traded. 

Your GF is proving to you through her actions that she is selfish, prudish and has hangups that a couple years down the road will be enormous in their scale. Don't do this to yourself.


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## Cre8ify (Feb 1, 2012)

Whether it is intentional or not, she will never change. I have 30 years of "highly relevant" experience.


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## grear (Jul 5, 2015)

NoChoice said:


> OP,
> Do you believe that waiting five months was virtuous on her part? Is it possible that she does not like sexual intimacy and was just putting it off as long as she thought she could? I would not discount that possibility. Additionally, have you ever heard that marriage is 50/50, give and take? It requires flexibility. Her attitude in this area shows none. I would be careful not to assume that this is the only area wherein she may be inflexible. Once married you may discover that sexual intimacy may diminish and demands may increase. Be forewarned and diligent in your efforts to expose this. Many have fallen victim to the "it will get better after we are married" fantasy only to find it gets worse.


She wanted to wait because she wanted to make sure I was with her for who she was and not just for sex. I had no problem waiting because I thought she was worth waiting for and I figured that we would have the rest of our lives to catch up on sex. With all that being sad, I'm about 99% sure I will call things off with her. The only thing holding me back is the fact that she is perfect in all other aspects of the relationship. She is really looking forward to getting married and having children so I know this will hurt her. I really don't even want to tell her my reasoning because she may just change temporarily until we are married and then I'm stuck.


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## grear (Jul 5, 2015)

bandit.45 said:


> Yes it is selfish because you are looking out for your future happiness and contentment. The dating and engagement process is like a job interview. She either proves herself to be a compatible partner to you or she fails. It really is that simple.
> 
> Yeah we get that you love her, but understand that this intense love you feel will fade in a couple of years after the shine has worn off the penny. Then where will you be? Stuck with a woman who is selfish sexually. I guarantee you she is only just giving you the bare essentials sexually to keep you interested. Once you are married and she has her hooks in you, watch as she withdraws sex almost completely.
> 
> ...


I see what you are saying and that makes the decision easier. Even from my own experience, I know that sex never gets better after marriage. My fear is that I'm letting go a woman that is fine in all other aspects except for sex and I may end up with another woman that pleases me sexually but is severely lacking in other areas of the relationship. I think my biggest mistake was proposing and giving her the impression that we had a future together. Had I known these things earlier, I probably would have passed on the proposal and eventually moved on.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

grear said:


> She wanted to wait because she wanted to make sure I was with her for who she was and not just for sex. I had no problem waiting because I thought she was worth waiting for and I figured that we would have the rest of our lives to catch up on sex. With all that being sad, I'm about 99% sure I will call things off with her. The only thing holding me back is the fact that she is perfect in all other aspects of the relationship. She is really looking forward to getting married and having children so I know this will hurt her. I really don't even want to tell her my reasoning because she may just change temporarily until we are married and then I'm stuck.


Call off the wedding.  You may or may not break off the relationship. 

But you are correct to be worried about a temporary change. If you decide to stay with her, make sure you wait at least a year (maybe two) before you make plans for marriage and kids. 

*I was going to post the message above .......

Second thought is to break it off totally. She has an attitude towards sex that rarely if ever changes in the long term. Best to not have to deal with this the rest of your life.*


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Well done, grear!

You asked for advice, read all of the replies, considered it all, and made a wise decision.

You have just avoided a whole bunch of misery, and likely revisiting TAM in a few years with a miserable HD/LD marriage dilemma... And stuck because of kids.


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## ChargingCharlie (Nov 14, 2012)

Call it off - as has been said by others much wiser than me, the sex won't get any better, and once kids show up, it will be over. My wife doesn't give BJ's (only had one from her very early on), but I'd be happy with regular sex. Knowing what I know now (not just lack of sex, but the whole picture), I almost wish I'd have never met her (almost because the two little buggers in our house are the world to me). 

Also will agree that dating is like a job interview - I'm a partner in an engineering firm, and we made a mistake some years back with an employee - good interviewing skills, but something just wasn't right but we couldn't pinpoint it and overlooked it. Had to get rid of this person after a couple of months. Same in relationships - early on you love being around this person and the sex is great and frequent.


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## Cre8ify (Feb 1, 2012)

I would elaborate on bandit's post which supposes she is "managing" your supply of intimacy. It may be less intentional than that. My wife said she "chose me for other reasons" which is code for physical attraction was never there. She may be missing some natural attraction to you or have a bushel basket of emotionally based hangups which hold her back. You end up in the same place but I share it with you as you may be able to anticipate her reaction.

If I had this insight all those years ago I know I would have bailed...and yes she is the perfect partner in every other way.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
You can tell her it is sexual incompatibility. That you would not want her to force herself to do things she doesn't like, or do you want to be deprived of the sort of sex life you want - nothing wrong with either of you, but together you will have a lifetime of resentment and you will BOTH be miserable.

If you don't want her to see these posts you can send her to another discussion site - let her read all the posts by people who feel trapped and resentful because they are in sexually incompatible relationships. 

Do not believe any promises that it will change. Even if she honestly believes it will it won't - not long term. 





grear said:


> She wanted to wait because she wanted to make sure I was with her for who she was and not just for sex. I had no problem waiting because I thought she was worth waiting for and I figured that we would have the rest of our lives to catch up on sex. With all that being sad, I'm about 99% sure I will call things off with her. The only thing holding me back is the fact that she is perfect in all other aspects of the relationship. She is really looking forward to getting married and having children so I know this will hurt her. I really don't even want to tell her my reasoning because she may just change temporarily until we are married and then I'm stuck.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

grear said:


> *She wanted to wait because she wanted to make sure I was with her for who she was and not just for sex.* I had no problem waiting because I thought she was worth waiting for and I figured that we would have the rest of our lives to catch up on sex. With all that being sad, I'm about 99% sure I will call things off with her. The only thing holding me back is the fact that she is perfect in all other aspects of the relationship. She is really looking forward to getting married and having children so I know this will hurt her. I really don't even want to tell her my reasoning because she may just change temporarily until we are married and then I'm stuck.


*AAAAAAAAARGHHHHH!!!!!! :surprise:

Danger Will Robinson! Danger!*

Have you ever asked her how long it took other guys to get her in the sack? How many one night stands has she had? 

Because if she made you wait, while jumping on other guys first date, then it very likely means that she is not attracted to you sexually. You need to make damn sure if this is the case, because if it is then it means she is just marrying you for security. A woman who is not sexually lusting after her husband is only married to him out of convenience. 

Don't set yourself up for that my friend. Find a woman who rips your clothes off, gets as freaky with you as you like, but is still faithful and kind. Such women do exist. Accept nothing less.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

grear said:


> I see what you are saying and that makes the decision easier. Even from my own experience, I know that sex never gets better after marriage. My fear is that I'm letting go a woman that is fine in all other aspects except for sex and I may end up with another woman that pleases me sexually but is severely lacking in other areas of the relationship. I think my biggest mistake was proposing and giving her the impression that we had a future together. Had I known these things earlier, I probably would have passed on the proposal and eventually moved on.


Your fiancee is under the delusion that she has you under her thumb and that you will be willing to just accept a marginal sex life... while in return you make a living for the two of you, father her children and supply all her needs. 

That's slavery my friend. Better to stay single.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Echoing CC's response, wise to call it off.



ChargingCharlie said:


> My wife doesn't give BJ's (only had one from her very early on), but I'd be happy with regular sex.


THIS, I don't understand. Personally, I love giving BJs. As @alexm pointed out so eloquently, while performing a BJ, *I* am in control (a relished moment as he is very Alpha-dominant in bed). His most precious "jewels" are in my hands. Well, that's rhetorical -- not QUITE in my hands! 

It's an opportunity for me to demonstrate, in the most intimate of ways, how very much I value his MANHOOD. And he is putty in my hands (errrr... mouth). And I do NOT mean that in a manipulative way. I mean it in a very vulnerable, intimate way.

Ask yourself... can you live with someone who cannot (or WILL NOT) do that for you?



ChargingCharlie said:


> Also will agree that dating is like a job interview - I'm a partner in an engineering firm, and we made a mistake some years back with an employee - good interviewing skills, but something just wasn't right but we couldn't pinpoint it and overlooked it. *Had to get rid of this person after a couple of months. *


:iagree:

Dating really IS like a job interview. grear, you did the whole sexless marriage thing once before. View this like you're interviewing a position for a TOP level female CEO. You deserve nothing less.

You are on the right track. Just do NOT buckle under her tears... and trust me, those tears and "empty promises" are coming!!!

(One last thing... *WARNING... *graphic**... she may agree to suck your c*ck just to make it to the alter... but EVERY man knows the difference between a "good" BJ and a cr*ppy one... one where the chick is just "tolerating" it. Sure, it's in her mouth. But is she loving on it?) 

Don't settle, grear.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

I think you need to figure out why you keep picking women who aren't that into you.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Bugged said:


> @grear the truth is..only you know her..these people don't know her, never talked to her..*isn't it obvious that they're projecting?*


Oh, good grief @Bugged!!! You are really "bugging" me now!! 

Just because YOU draw the line at "normal, healthy, mainstream" sex... doesn't mean 95% of the population agrees with you.

We are NOT talking about the psycho patriarchal Romans debasing little boys. We are talking about a natural, intimate act between two MARRIED consenting ADULTS.

You seem a bit uptight about BJs and oral sex in general. So sorry for what you are missing out on. (It's da' bomb!!)

Whether you are Christian or not (you have stated you were raised Catholic, as was I), go back and read "Song of Songs" in the Bible. 

Christian, Buddhist, Muslim, Jewish, atheist, agnostic, doesn't matter... "Song of Songs" is a beautiful testimony to the intimacy between a man and wife. Regardless of your beliefs.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Bugged said:


> @grear the truth is..only you know her..these people don't know her, never talked to her..isn't it obvious that they're projecting?
> You're like one of those that have a symptom and start searching the internet..and end up convincing themselves that they have a terminal disease...
> It's like asking alchoolics an opinion about wine...
> Anyway, since you made your mind up and you say you REALLY love her (whatever) , you at least owe her the truth...0


I thought you were leaving. And for someone who has "marriage is evil", I would think that you would be advising the OP to stay single for any reason.


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## bkyln309 (Feb 1, 2015)

I do think this is an issue if you really like/need that in your sexual rotation. And not that BJs have to be the main course all the time but that she is willing to give to you in that way when needed. This may be her dealbreaker. Which means you may not be sexually compatible which is a big problem in marriage. She will not change nor should you expect her to. Can you live with that?


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

its good you found out now BEFORE you are married.

you have been warned by many here run or accept a lack luster sex life!


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

bkyln309 said:


> I do think this is an issue if you really like/need that in your sexual rotation. And not that BJs have to be the main course all the time *but that she is willing to give to you in that way when needed.*


:iagree:

I cannot TELL you the number of times my Alpha male (sensitive lovey-dovey SO) has awakened me in the night with a "male issue"... I roll over and take care of him. To my delight and his.

And guess what? It's all reciprocated. When I wake up in the middle of the night with an "urge", he is ALL TOO HAPPY to reciprocate.

That's called unbridled, unrestricted, love and passion. No games. No "strings" attached. No b*tching over housework, laundry, kid-care, resentment... Who "owes" who what. It's all about vulnerability and connecting. Trusting your partner enough to KNOW that they will not judge you, shame you, LORD it OVER YOUR HEAD that they "did you a favor." Sheesh. 

More, it's simply relishing in your connnection. That's what it's all about. Just look at my signature line.

Just a NEED... for BOTH of us to reconnect.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

bkyln309 said:


> I do think this is an issue if you really like/need that in your sexual rotation. And not that BJs have to be the main course all the time but that she is willing to give to you in that way when needed. This may be her dealbreaker. Which means you may not be sexually compatible which is a big problem in marriage. She will not change nor should you expect her to. Can you live with that?



Personally, if I were in the market, "willing" would not even be close to good enough. Why be with someone who doesn't crave you? Again op stop settling and work on your picker.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Personally, if I were in the market, "willing" would not even be close to good enough. Why be with someone who doesn't crave you? Again op stop settling and work on your picker.


:iagree:

I think grear has already made his decision.

We are now at the point where TAM members are arguing amongst themselves. (Some, who I shan't mention by name, to justify their own prudish behaviors and lock grear into a lifetime of misery.)


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening Happy as a Clam
I completely totally agree with your post above that each should do wonderful sexual things for the other. How wonderful it is to know that your partner is eager to please you whenever you want - and to enjoy doing the same for them. To me that is the perfect sexual relationship. 

Unfortunately Bugged is not that unusual in her attitudes. A lot of women (my wife included) believe that BJs are degrading and nothing can change their minds. They see the act as fundamentally degrading - as Bugged has said the line "Suck my C...." as an aggressive demeaning demand.

Of course all sex can be degrading. "I'm going to Fxxx that Bxxx" is not exactly a loving phrase either. But somehow many people recognize the intercourse is also intimate and loving, but don't see oral the same way.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

*A lot of women (my wife included) believe that BJs are degrading and nothing can change their minds.*

I've met many women in my life with such attitudes. It usually came with baggage of "if you really liked me as a person, you wouldn't care about sex."

Which usually met with a response of "let's just be friends then. Your friend is cute, what's her number?"


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

To a degree, women must parse out men who care about them vs men who care about sex. This is becuase all men they encounter throughout life want sex from them. So her thought process is natural to a degree. With men it's just the opposite... Only a few women ever agree to have sex so that's why you equate sex and love. The thing is, is she inclined to ever understand that sex between husband and wife is an act of love? Your future wife needs to understand how important this is to your emotional satisfaction in a marriage. Based on everything you post, I would be very nervous to take the next step.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening Hicks
you might be surprised at how many threads there are here from women who's husbands don't want sex. It seems about as common as the other way around - just not talked about as much. 




Hicks said:


> To a degree, women must parse out men who care about them vs men who care about sex. This is becuase all men they encounter throughout life want sex from them. So her thought process is natural to a degree. With men it's just the opposite... Only a few women ever agree to have sex so that's why you equate sex and love. The thing is, is she inclined to ever understand that sex between husband and wife is an act of love? Your future wife needs to understand how important this is to your emotional satisfaction in a marriage. Based on everything you post, I would be very nervous to take the next step.


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## grear (Jul 5, 2015)

Thanks for all the advice guys. I felt guilty when I made the initial post simply because it seemed a little selfish to end a loving relationship over something as petty as a blow job. However, after reading all the responses, I realized that this issue is a lot bigger than I thought and that calling off the wedding and relationship might be the best thing for the both of us. With my ex, I remember having a lot of anger and resentment in my heart because of the lack of sex. Even with my current fiance, I am starting to get this feeling of resentment against her. It just sucks though because she has all the other check boxes on my list. 

Is it worth even telling her the reason why things won't work between us? I'm afraid that if I tell her we aren't sexually compatible, she may try her hardest to change things and that would make my decision even more harder.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Yes, you owe it to her to be honest with why you're calling it off. You don't have to be a d!ck about it, but do be honest.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

"Fiancee, I don't think we should get married. I love you, and I love our relationship, but I don't think we're on the same page sexually. I don't want to end up with us dragging this out and being unhappy for decades because I have sexual needs you don't. I love you in every other way and wish it could work, but this is a part of my life I'm not willing to give up."

And don't drag it out. Don't let her try. Don't let bait 'n switch happen even if she really thinks she could make it work. Because odds are it won't last, and even if it does, she'll resent you for it.

Come from a place of compassion, and that you both just dodged a bullet.


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## Noble1 (Oct 25, 2013)

bandit.45 said:


> I wonder if she had a bad experience with a past guy? Maybe she was forced at one time.



Don't want to be a total ass about the above, but just how much "room" would you allow for something like this?

I'm not saying get over a ra** or something like that, just that if someone didn't really want to but was pressured into it by a true ass****.

Would someone be able to get over it for a real loving partner?


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

richardsharpe said:


> Unfortunately Bugged is not that unusual in her attitudes. A lot of women (my wife included) believe that BJs are degrading and nothing can change their minds. They see the act as fundamentally degrading - as Bugged has said the line *"Suck my C...." as an aggressive demeaning demand.*
> 
> Of course all sex can be degrading. "I'm going to Fxxx that Bxxx" is not exactly a loving phrase either. But somehow many people recognize the intercourse is also intimate and loving, but don't see oral the same way.


Dirty talk like that is only degrading when the partners are incompatible and not trusting each other. I have had partners who LOVED dirty talk. I don't get that turned on by it, nor do I normally get verbally nasty with a woman, but if a woman likes for me to do that then I have no problem getting XXX with her. 

Once again, it is about compatibility.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

grear said:


> Thanks for all the advice guys. I felt guilty when I made the initial post simply because it seemed a little selfish to end a loving relationship over something as petty as a blow job. However, after reading all the responses, I realized that this issue is a lot bigger than I thought and that calling off the wedding and relationship might be the best thing for the both of us. With my ex, I remember having a lot of anger and resentment in my heart because of the lack of sex. Even with my current fiance, I am starting to get this feeling of resentment against her. It just sucks though because she has all the other check boxes on my list.
> 
> Is it worth even telling her the reason why things won't work between us? I'm afraid that if I tell her we aren't sexually compatible, she may try her hardest to change things and that would make my decision even more harder.



Partners who withhold sex also end up withholding a lot of other things. 

She is showing you her game face right now, doing everything she "thinks" she needs to do for you to get that ring on her finger and get you hooked. Problem is, people like her often end up reneging on a lot of promises. 

They get lazy, and all those things they used to do for you just diminish more and more as the years go by. This is why so many marriages fail: usually because one partner is selfish and wants to control the marriage, or they become lazy and forget their promises. 

Your fiancee seems to see sex as a duty, or something she has to do to appease you. 

Well....sh!t.......who the hell wants a wife like that?


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

grear said:


> She wanted to wait because she wanted to make sure I was with her for who she was and not just for sex. I had no problem waiting because I thought she was worth waiting for and I figured that we would have the rest of our lives to catch up on sex.


And now you know that this is LD-speak for "sex isn't at all important to me, and I want to make sure it isn't to you, either".

Here's irony for you: you and your fiancee were both looking for the same damn thing - sexual compatibility. She hasn't met your criteria, you haven't met hers. Yet she is attempting to change you into what she wants.

Her insisting you wait to "make sure you were with her for who she is, not for sex" is absolutely no different than you telling a woman on the second date that you're going to have sex on the third date, to ensure that you two are compatible in that way. It's all about compatibility, for both you and her. 

And you didn't read between the lines, my friend. Now you know.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Bugged said:


> @grear the truth is..only you know her..these people don't know her, never talked to her..isn't it obvious that they're projecting?
> You're like one of those that have a symptom and start searching the internet..and end up convincing themselves that they have a terminal disease...
> It's like asking alchoolics an opinion about wine...
> Anyway, since you made your mind up and you say you REALLY love her (whatever) , you at least owe her the truth...0


Nobody's projecting anything, @Bugged. We're all going by what OP has told us.

It's not complicated. Grear requires a certain level of sexual compatibility from his partner, that she can not (will not) provide. End of story.

You also have your limits with the people you date. Everything could be perfect about your guy, except he's a (raging alcoholic/neo-nazi/has an enormous penis that hurts you/his belly button smells/is terrible at football).

You're telling me there's nothing on earth that would keep you from some guy if he only had the one fault, but that fault would completely impact your happiness in some way, shape or form - for the rest of your life?

Bugged, all of us here have some experience being married (some of us more than once...). We know more than you think. For example, we married folks know enough to recognize when there is a severe enough incompatibility that will impact future happiness. This is one of those cases. We have the OP, Grear, who REQUIRES a certain level of intimacy from his partner, and we have his partner, who does NOT require (or is willing to provide) this level of compatibility. End of story. It's not rocket surgery.

With all due respect (and I MEAN that) - you have described yourself as having Asperger's. While there is no shame in this, obviously, I believe that it is impacting your ability to fully grasp the situation that is occurring in this thread.

As most of us know, Asperger's can severely limit one's understanding of certain social situations - of which this is one - to the point where the one party does not comprehend "what the big deal is" and "why can't they just get over it" etc. There's a huge element of black and white to your posts, but in reality, the world is not black and white at all. There are a million shades of grey in between the two - always.

Furthermore, you are not married, and have never been married. You are more than welcome to post here, of course, and your input is welcome - always. But there's a very fine line between offering marital advice to someone based on what YOU think is right or wrong, and offering marital advice to someone based on EXPERIENCE. Often the best advice is experience-heavy.

In this case, the advice presented is based on experience, and it is not wrong. Does it sound harsh to read 20 different people saying "don't marry this woman" to a stranger? Yes, of course it does. But he asked.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

I went back and re-read the first post. This woman has had only one prior partner.

Grear, have you ever asked her what her sexual experience with that guy was like? Was he rough, overly sexual or was he a prude like her? Or did they have a great, vibrant, energetic sexual relationship? Was he a guy who rocked her world sexually but was unable to make the grade on all other aspects of the relationship? What do you know about him?


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

No blow, no go.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GTdad (Aug 15, 2011)

ConanHub said:


> No blow, no go.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My wife would say something along the lines of "No lick? Then kick." 

Sex is a very important part of our relationship, and oral sex is an important part of our sex life. Neither of us would be too keen on oral sex not being on the menu. A future without oral would be pretty darn grim.


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## tornado (Jan 10, 2014)

Definitely end the relationship. No sense dragging out the misery. Your miserable with no blow job. She is PO'd because your miserable about something so trivial.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

tornado said:


> Definitely end the relationship. No sense dragging out the misery. Your miserable with no blow job. She is PO'd because your miserable about something so trivial.


Ohhhhh 


This is going to be good....


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

tornado said:


> Definitely end the relationship. No sense dragging out the misery. Your miserable with no blow job. She is PO'd because your miserable about something so trivial.


Would you please clearly define for us what you believe to be the delineation between "trivial" sex acts and, say, what you would regard as "legitimate" sex acts?


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

wrenn said:


> You already have the wedding planned and you've sent out invitations?
> 
> Wow when you cancel the wedding the first thing everyone is going to ask is "what happened?"
> 
> ...


Yep, totally a better idea to consign yourself to a lifetime of resentment and disappointment rather than have to cancel the caterer.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

wrenn said:


> You already have the wedding planned and you've sent out invitations?
> 
> Wow when you cancel the wedding the first thing everyone is going to ask is "what happened?"
> 
> ...


You do realize that people cancel wedding all the time without detailed explanations, right? No one is entitled to any explanation at all. Nobody is going to say it was because they weren't sexually compatible. They'll just say they realized that they weren't ready for marriage yet.


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## F-102 (Sep 15, 2010)

Grear, as others have said, she's only giving you what you want in order to get you to the altar. She definitely wants a marriage, but on HER terms. This will be HER marriage, not both of yours.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

WorkingOnMe said:


> You do realize that people cancel wedding all the time without detailed explanations, right? No one is entitled to any explanation at all. Nobody is going to say it was because they weren't sexually compatible. They'll just say they realized that they weren't ready for marriage yet.



The other expression that I hear often is "it didn't work for me."


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## Decorum (Sep 7, 2012)

bandit.45 said:


> Would you please clearly define for us what you believe to be the delineation between "trivial" sex acts and, say, what you would regard as "legitimate" sex acts?


I think tornado was speaking from "her" (OP's wife's) perspective, not stating his (or her) own opinion. I could be wrong (but when has that ever happened, right?)


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## donny64 (Apr 21, 2012)

I know this: Any woman who said to me "I'm not putting that thing anywhere near my face" has issues on many levels...not just sexually. Can we as men, or you as women EVER imagine saying that to a woman, and as a woman if it happened to you, would you not just walk out? For good? 

We're it said to me, especially followed by the hissy fit and tossing me out, you can bet she'd be sliding in on her knees next time she saw me trying to give me one. Simply because I'd have been done with her, and would disappear quick. 

Been there done it. In my younger more inexperienced days i was not so quick to see the signs or act with any sense of self respect or preservation. 

Why is my c*ck so unappealing to you when we were married that I got one bj in 4 years, but a year after i finally decided sex 3 times a year wasnt enough and kicked you to the curb, were you then trying to win me back and ready to suck on it like your freedom depended on it?


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## tornado (Jan 10, 2014)

bandit.45 said:


> Would you please clearly define for us what you believe to be the delineation between "trivial" sex acts and, say, what you would regard as "legitimate" sex acts?



I'm saying that his soon to be would consider it to be trivial. She doesn't consider it important, and even sees it degrading. She is certainly not going to understand his problem with it.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

tornado said:


> I'm saying that his soon to be would consider it to be trivial. She doesn't consider it important, and even sees it degrading. She is certainly not going to understand his problem with it.


Ah. I understand now. I get it.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Personal uses them thar big fancy words....but all correct.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

Bugged said:


> Oh c'mon...re-read the thread ...people saying she just wants to hook him up and get a ring on her finger, that she's not into him and want him only as a provider etc etc etc...as if HE was such a great catch...maybe he is..maybe not...the TRUTH is you don't know this woman, you don't know OP...there are ALWAYS 2 sides to every story...anyway
> 
> 
> No, it's not complicated. It's pretty clear what he's doing.
> ...


Having raised (or still raising) a newly minted adult child who is on the spectrum, I can appreciate that there is a clear ability of said person to detach from feelings and can diagnose a problem with clinical precision. My wife thinks that I have a touch of Aspergers myself, though that's debatable.

You are right on a number of points. TAM can be an echo chamber. Also, people will provide advice that is colored by their past experiences. It doesn't happen all the time, but it does happen. However, you too are biased in your view when it comes to sexuality. You too have preconceived notions about what people should value and what people overemphasize in their lives. Your value system prevents you from seeing intimacy as a loving act between couples. You see it as a means to an end for achieving an orgasm. Therefore, your preconceived notions about sex are that it should take a lower priority to other activities that go on in a marriage. 

Regarding the OP. Is he being shallow, or is he seriously worried about ending up with a spouse that will make his marriage sexless? I don't know. You may be right in that he is being incredibly shallow. Maybe his fiance is a freak in the sack in all other things except BJs. Then again, maybe he's frustrated because there is little to no variety in their sex life AND he sees it only deteriorating over time. Having read all the posts from the OP, he HAS experienced a sexless marriage before, and he sees similar signs pointing to this future marriage going down the same path.

The bottom line, this is all about how people value intimacy in a marriage. You put a lower priority on it and you assign your value system to the OP, i.e. he's "shallow" in your eyes. OTOH, others (me included) put intimacy at a very high priority in a marriage. To me, it's clear that this marriage will not work because of fundamental disagreement on how intimacy ranks in the marriage between the two in the OP. At least, based on what we know that's the conclusion I came up with. It's clear to me that sexual incompatibility is not desired by the OP. Having given the benefit of the doubt once, there is ZERO reason for him to be so trusting again. Life is too short to take such a gamble on something so big.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

First of all, don't leave @Bugged! I'm not trying to frustrate you enough to leave this thread, and I actually think your input is interesting, valid, and welcomed here. I apologize if I'm coming off as trying to negate your thoughts in any way. It's simply a discussion with two sides (not right and wrong), just two differing opinions.



Bugged said:


> Oh c'mon...re-read the thread ...people saying she just wants to hook him up and get a ring on her finger, that she's not into him and want him only as a provider etc etc etc...as if HE was such a great catch...maybe he is..maybe not...the TRUTH is you don't know this woman, you don't know OP...there are ALWAYS 2 sides to every story...anyway
> 
> *You are correct, yes. But on a message board, we often only get one side. If two sides are the requirement to give advice, this place would be pointless.
> 
> ...


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## tornado (Jan 10, 2014)

Two people with a very different opinion of sex and what it means will never a agree or understand. LD never understands why it's so important. HD never understands why it's not.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Bugged said:


> I've spent most of my life behind a glass wall...observing the so called 'normal' people like an entomologist


If you see people as bugs, you won't have much compassion for their needs and desires, and are willing to stick pins in them. If you can view them like an anthropologist, you might understand them better and have more respect for those needs and wants even if you don't share them.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

bandit.45 said:


> Personal uses them thar big fancy words....but all correct.


* Yeah, Bandito! I think that's because Personal's been reading far too many of my posts!*


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Bugged said:


> OP came here with his mind already made up...he wanted to call off the wedding and wanted positive reinforcement...looking for some kind of 'absolution' for doing something he knows can be seen as _shallow_...found people that, just like him, had negative past experiences who started to DIVINE his *miserable, sexless future with a manipulative woman who only wanted a ring on her finger and blah blah blah*...I used to have a lot of sympathyfor people coming from said negative experiences...not anymore.
> He's not even interested in finding out why she reacted like she did...he's just running-:grin2:


For someone accusing others of projection, this comes off as more than just a little hypocritical.

There is a very big cost to being married long term to someone with sexual attitudes like this - not the disinterest in giving oral sex, but the larger picture expressed by the OP. A bunch of us have lived it first hand. The OPs concerns are legitimate, and we don't need to project our realities onto his to raise a flag of warning.


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## Constable Odo (Feb 14, 2015)

This is, again, what I commonly refer to as a "no brainer".

Compatibility is important for the success of a long term relationship. Part of that compatibility includes sexual compatibility.

If the OP enjoys oral sex, his partner doesn't, and it is an important part of his sexuality, then these people are incompatible and he should break off the relationship and find someone more compatible. 

In the long-run, this relationship is doomed to failure.

Its just that simple.


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## I Don't Know (Oct 8, 2013)

First, he's not throwing her away. She's not going to be a discarded item that ends up in a landfill. She will move on with her life. Possibly a happier and healthier person when all is said and done.

Second, even if she is perfect in every other way... in this way she is not. She was insulted by the mere mention of her performing oral sex on him. She insinuated that his penis is disgusting to her. I can't imagine ever saying something like that to my wife about her vagina. Or even a random sex partner for that matter.

Third, he isn't giving up a perfect woman for oral sex. It's not like he has to choose between oral sex with someone who is a horrible person and Miss Perfect who won't do it. He can find someone who is also perfect in every way AND likes giving oral sex. If he takes his time he CAN find BOTH.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

I Don't Know said:


> Third, he isn't giving up a perfect woman for oral sex. It's not like he has to choose between oral sex with someone who is a horrible person and Miss Perfect who won't do it. He can find someone who is also perfect in every way AND likes giving oral sex. If he takes his time he CAN find BOTH.


We have a word for men who hold out for the woman perfect in every way.

We call them bachelors.

Choosing a mate is always a tradeoff. To expect otherwise is to be naive or unrealistic, seems to me. Finding a mate who is enthusiastic about giving oral sex might mean getting a woman with an untreatable shoe habit. Maybe a regular bj is worth it. Only you can decide which things are worth compromise, but expecting to not have to compromise at all is to guarantee a life alone. 

Nothing, and I mean NOTHING is more toxic to a long term relationship than unrealistic expectations.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

I think OP may just have a massive Johnson. Maybe she just can't get her mouth around it without spraining her jaw muscles.


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## I Don't Know (Oct 8, 2013)

Perfection is in the eye of the one seeking it. I highly doubt the OP's (ex?) fiancé is actually perfect in every other way. Of course you'll never find a partner who is truly perfect, but is it really compromise if you just don't care? My wife has a habit of leaving her cups on the night stand. I couldn't care less, so I don't view that as a compromise. Some people might. If my wife wanted a closet full of shoes, I'd be ok with that as long as the bills are paid first. 

No one is perfect, but there are people who are perfect in every way that matters.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

grear said:


> She said it was demeaning and she would never "put that thing anywhere near my face".


Well one of two things are going to happen. Either she will not give you bjs or worse she'll cave but give lazy, annoyed, 30 sec bjs to shut you up. I'd rather have the former cause the latter is just a total mood killer. If she's not into it, she'll never be into it and it doesn't sound like she loves you enough to meet your needs either.

I also find her reaction appalling considering its ok with her if you "demean" yourself by munching on her carpet. (You need to cut that sh!t out pronto until she starts blowing you). Between that and the five month wait she comes off as VERY prudish. You sure you want to marry her? 

I give this 50/50 that it turns sexless shortly after the "I do". I completely understand your fear about another sexless marriage. Thankfully my gf is HD. I'll never put up with that CRAP ever again.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

bandit.45 said:


> Dirty talk like that is only degrading when the partners are incompatible and not trusting each other. I have had partners who LOVED dirty talk. I don't get that turned on by it, nor do I normally get verbally nasty with a woman, but if a woman likes for me to do that then I have no problem getting XXX with her.
> 
> Once again, it is about compatibility.


:iagree: completely.

My SO is a complete gentleman. Opens doors for me, drops me at the restaurant door when it's raining, brings me coffee (in bed!) every morning.

But in bed, he can do some mighty tall dirty talk. As can I. And we both love it. And there's nothing derogatory or denigrating at all.

Bandit is right... It's all about TRUST.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> No blow, no go.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Day-ummm...
@ConanHub summed up the WHOLE thing in FOUR WORDS...

:smthumbup:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

donny64 said:


> *Why is my c*ck so unappealing to you when we were married* that I got one bj in 4 years, but a year after i finally decided sex 3 times a year wasnt enough and kicked you to the curb, were you then trying to win me back and *ready to suck on it like your freedom depended on it?*


THIS is a TAM gem. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Married but Happy said:


> *If you see people as bugs*, you won't have much compassion for their needs and desires, and are willing to stick pins in them. If you can view them like an anthropologist, you might understand them better and have more respect for those needs and wants even if you don't share them.


Bingo!! We have a winner!!!

That's why this whole thing was "bugging" me...

@Bugged.... Get married. Then come back and talk to us. Marriage changes everything.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Decorum (Sep 7, 2012)

I like where this is going.

I remember a quote from KungFu "With every loss there is a gain just as with every gain there is a loss"

Maybe all the time the OP gains from not being pleasured by her will allow him to take up macrame!

Oh and mix some saltpeter into your mashed potatoes.


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## grear (Jul 5, 2015)

Ok I need some advice. Things have been back to normal for us the past few days ever since the bj incident. It's been bugging me a lot since I've been going back and forth on this issue in my head. She's been casually bringing up things about our future and that makes me feel guilty. I went ahead earlier this afternoon and told her that I love her more than life. The problem is that we are sexually incompatible and for that reason, I think we should go our separate ways. Once she realized I was serious, she broke out in tears and that made me feel bad. She knew it was because of the bj thing and she said that if that's the only thing that's keeping us apart, she will do that for me if I like because she loves me. Now I feel like a really big ******* but I thought I was doing us both a favor. Five years from now, I don't want to be living like roommates in the same house. I want our sex to be everlasting and enjoyable. Now I have this thought in my head that even if I do try to make things work for her, sex will be more like a job for her rather than something she really wants to do on her on. It hurt even more when she told me that she enjoys having sex with me and there is nothing about myself that she wants me to change. I kind of regret telling her now after all the crying earlier. This isn't just some girl on the street, she is someone I really care about. I don't know if I should have put my feelings aside and forgot about this issue but now, the cats out of the bag. I know from my own experience that there are other things that I value about marriage such as honesty (my ex cheated), spending quality time together, and sharing the financial responsibilities somewhat equally. She checks all of those boxes. Do you guys think I was too harsh and was there any better way to tell her? Is there any chance in hell that we can make this relationship work and both of us be pleased sexually?


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Yes, you can definitely make it work, as long as you don't mind never having a guilt free blow job ever again.

Also, if you do decide to go ahead with the relationship, I would absolutely stop going down on her.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
I know this is really really hard. If she knows that you are discussing this online you can give specific examples. Otherwise make it a hypothetical. 

People can love each other but not be sexually compatible and it is unlikely to get better. There will always be this tension between you. You will always feel rejected - and always tempted to get what you are missing somewhere else. She will always feel pressured. Soon every nice thing you do for her will be seen as an attempt to bribe you for sex. Everything she does for you will be seen as an attempt to avoid sex - it will seem that she will do ANYTHING for you except the one thing you most want. The frustration will grow - the think you cannot have will become ever more important. Her feeling or pressure will grow - you will want the one thing she cannot stand to do.

You are breaking up for both of you. You do not want either of you to live that life. You are not saying you will leave because she won't give you BJs. You are saying that you are leaving because you do not believe you can be happy together. You do not want her doing something she hates, and she does not want you to be frustrated and miserable.


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## F-102 (Sep 15, 2010)

As one of Gen. MacArthur's aides once said: "Somebody's gotta be the b*stard", so here I am.

"...she broke out in tears, and that made me feel bad." That's what she was counting on.

Then she half-heartedly agreed to give you BJs, because she loves you. It sounds like a case of emotional blackmail. You will never get ANYTHING from her without her reminding you of what it's costing her.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

You shouldn't feel bad about telling her your truth. Of course you don't want to hurt or upset her, but marriage isn't something you take lightly, and sweeping things under the rug when you're engaged is not a mature thing to do. 

So you're going to need to get used to serious conversation, and she will need to learn to process her emotions so you can both discuss things calmly, rationally, and fairly. Tears are fine, but remember that her actions are what you should really be listening to.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Just go ahead and marry her.

Come back to TAM in a few years when it becomes sexless.

Jeez grear... You didn't take ANY of our advice, and now you're waffling. Why bother to post if you aren't interested in taking the advice. We all predicted the tears and the empty promises. And it sounds like you're falling for it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Huh? :scratchhead:

Could you please translate that analogy? About the car and the wind in your hair?

I'm sorry, but it didn't compute. 

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Icey181 (Apr 16, 2015)

Wow…grear, that is emotional blackmail 101.

Sexual incompatibility is a flag. 
I think it is one that can be worked on, given that two people are in love and willing to expand their boundaries a bit for each other. 

Attempted emotional manipulation is another one.
_That_ cannot be worked on and is a dead ringer for "what will my life look like in 15 years.

I will tell this: I have been with my wife for 7 years, married for 3.

She promised oral sex right around when we became sexually active, say 5 or so years ago.

I have received maybe a half dozen half hearted attempts, despite both her promise and my enthusiastic and regular reciprocation.

It represents a serious sexual disconnect which bothers me to this day.

Add in some stress about general sexual compatibility and you begin to have some issues.

Figure this out now, before getting married.

I would recommend putting marriage down the road a bit while you guys try to work this out.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Grear, look. At the VERY least, you both need to get into some serious couples counseling before you get married and come to a mutual understanding on this matter. DO NOT say I do until you're both on the same page with a smile on your face.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

Break ups hurt like hell but you can either choose to prolong the agony by slowly pulling the bandage off or do a quick yank to remove it. In this case, I'd suggest that you do the latter.

Hopefully, after the pain goes away somewhat, she'll finally understand and accept the importance of sexual compatibility between couples, and maybe find a man who is equally adverse to oral sex as she is.


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

OP,
The mirrors in your mind are making this issue smaller than it actually is. This is not about fellatio, this is about recognizing and understanding the wants and desires of your SO. You want something she does not see as important and she wants something you do not perceive as important. She wants you to recognize and understand her disdain for fellatio and you want her to see it with the significance it has to you. This issue will arise countless times during your marriage, should you choose to marry her, so dealing with this issue may indeed be a litmus test for your future. Will one of you acquiesce to the other or will the two of you make a compromise that will be mutually satisfactory?

Rarely in marriage is there total agreement on any subject and I feel that compromise is always the best answer. When one party gives in completely, it typically sets the tone for what then becomes expected behavior and the marriage becomes one sided. One party starts to feel "entitled" and the other harbors resentment. Successful compromise, on the other hand, has no loser and both parties ultimately win since the issue is dealt with, not unilaterally but rather bilaterally. In this way, both parties feel as though their opinion or feelings matter and their voice is heard as opposed to feeling that their stance is less important and not worthy of equal consideration. This, I feel, is truly demeaning and belittling. For her to summarily dismiss your "request" shows lack her of willingness to compromise as does calling off the wedding show yours. If this woman is perfect in every other way, as you have stated, is it not worth significant effort to see if there is an amicable compromise that can be reached.

To that end I propose, as I have in a previous post, that you two sit down and rationally discuss the issue. Both of you must put aside your preconceived perceptions about the others viewpoints and start the conversation form a neutral position. If I may be so bold as to suggest an approach, it should be something along the lines of the following. First, each of you express your TRUE feelings about the subject and expound on those feelings so as to give the other a clear understanding of how each of you perceive the situation. Next, compare your feelings in the light of reason and logic to see if there are any ares of each others opinions that could be considered, rationally, as unreasonable. Then, each of you suggest an alternative solution that you can live with WITHOUT feeling as though you have completely given in and that you are prepared to follow through on if accepted. If, after careful consideration and discussion, there is no solution that can be mutually agreed upon then you must consider the possibility that this is an irreconcilable difference and proceed accordingly.

I will add this, for what it is worth, for you to consider. If your fiance has never performed fellatio, then she may be operating under a misconception and basing her "views" strictly on things she has inaccurately perceived and been told/taught by others. I was not particularly receptive to eating caviar. Raw fish roe did not sound particularly appealing to me but I had heard so many people rave about it that I was intrigued. I was at an event on one occasion and caviar was being offered so I decided to try it. I found it to be disgusting and was unable to swallow the small bite I had taken. The point is that I could not tell you emphatically today that I dislike caviar if I had never tried it for myself. I could only tell you what I believe based on what others had told me. I had to try it in order to make my own determination.

As we mature, there are things in life that we must decide on for ourselves and although experienced gleaned from others is important, it may not necessarily reflect our true feelings on a particular subject or action once experienced. Therefore, I would suggest that you offer her the opportunity, if she is willing and open to the idea, to experience this for herself. She may find that in a caring environment the intimacy and pleasure it provides may not be the disgusting experience she believes it to be. In fact, she may find it to be quite the opposite feeling. That is one possibility but either way at least then she can make a determination based on personal experience and not on supposition. I wish you good fortune.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

Grear, did you explain your entire position to her? Based on what you wrote about your conversation with her, you came across as an ass. I'm not saying that what you said wasn't correct, but you failed to provide the larger context for why you felt it was best if you two went your separate ways. Did you talk to her about your prior marriage, and how all of the things you see going on between you and your fiance are mirroring what happened in your first marriage where the intimacy dried up (assuming this situation is mirroring your first marriage). 

That's the part you failed to get across to her. Or if you truly want to spend your life with her, you could have offered to delay the marriage so that you two have a better chance to work things out. In the end though, I believe that you use dating as a means to vet your potential future spouse, and that it's a common mistake to try to "marriage build" your SO into becoming the spouse you desire - when it comes to the big things. Teaching your SO how to have better manners at a 4/5 star restaurant is an example of small changes that are not a big deal. Trying to teach your SO your value system as it pertains to marital roles in a family and your view on children is much larger. The former is part of broadening horizons and part of exploring the world together. The latter is fundamental to the value system you are looking for in a potential spouse. 

Some things - what I would call the critical components - cannot be taught once you hit adulthood. You either have it, or you don't. That's why paying attention when you date is so critical. Also, selecting who you date is critical too; however, that is a more controversial issue to discuss.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Bugged said:


> does it compute now?
> 
> checking out again...I don't care about giving advice here, it's like tilting at windmills..I'm far outnumbered...in the end, like in most cases, everyone will get what they deserve.


People are allowed to disagree with you, you know 

Personally, I like the different take on things that's coming from you - it adds to the discussion.

However, you're getting picked on because your tone is one of "all of you are wrong, I'm right, how do you not see this???"

Furthermore, you are still not understanding the theory behind why we are saying what we are saying. You are STILL hearing "she doesn't blow me" and given that that specific act is not something you a) care about and b) think is degrading and disgusting, you aren't able to get past that, I don't think.

Grear's thread could be about anything, sexual or non-sexual.

@Bugged, I asked you earlier in this thread if there was something, anything, that would cause you to see a potential mate as incompatible, and you never answered. There has to be SOMETHING. You've given a lot of examples of things that DON'T matter to you (fast car, $$$, etc.) but none that DO.

For Grear, sexual compatibility is important to him. His previous marriage was sexless. He does not want to repeat this again. If this includes a certain sexual act, that's his prerogative, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with it.

For your part, you not only put NO value in oral sex in a relationship, you actually attach a NEGATIVE value on it. That's YOUR prerogative. Therefore, my advice to you would be to seek out a partner who ALSO attaches a negative value to it. That's compatibility. As it is now, you have a partner who is willing to live without giving or receiving oral sex. The cost associated with that is up to him, and he may or may not have some resentment towards you because of it.

Don't be shocked if it ever becomes a big enough issue for him to do something about. He may be the greatest guy on earth, but if he ever breaks up with you because of incompatibility issues, don't sit around and fume about how he's just a typical guy, living within the social construct with the rest of us sheep, and that you had zero part to play in it.

It's not fair to other people when you don't understand where they're coming from. I have a hard time understanding MANY people - why they have certain political beliefs, why they love a certain TV show, why somebody is racist, why people like to be urinated on as a sexual act. Yet there are certainly many things people don't understand about me - why I'm vegan, why I do this, or like that. And that's okay. It's when somebody tells me I'm WRONG (or worse) for being vegan that I don't understand. And that's what you're doing, Bugged. You're telling us we're all wrong about this subject. If somebody likes to be urinated on during sex, I'm not going to tell them it's wrong. I might try to understand WHY, but I'm also not sure I care. And you know what? If Grear wanted his wife to do this for him and she wouldn't, I'd be giving him the same damn advice - find somebody who will, if it's that important to you, or live the rest of your life without it.

So you're persecuting Grear because you don't agree with what HE feels is important in his potential second marriage. I, too, would very much want to avoid repeating the same damn thing a second time, especially when it comes to marriage.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

How is she "persecuting" him? She is the only person offering a view different from every other one in this thread. 

One person against a crowd does not a persecutor make.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Bugged said:


> does it compute now?
> 
> checking out again...I don't care about giving advice here, it's like tilting at windmills..I'm far outnumbered...in the end, like in most cases, everyone will get what they deserve.


Let's try a different tack.

I could and do live with someone who thinks oral sex is disgusting and will not participate. I can manage that compromise.

I would have more difficulty living with someone who went around bellowing about how she is right, everyone else is wrong, and darn it, she's just so _persecuted_ for her amazing and underappreciated clarity of vision shared by so few others.

But that's just me.


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## I Don't Know (Oct 8, 2013)

jld said:


> How is she "persecuting" him? She is the only person offering a view different from every other one in this thread.
> 
> One person against a crowd does not a persecutor make.


Telling him he's shallow, selfish, and doesn't value other human beings. 

I don't know if I'd call it persecuting, but she's shamming him.

And yes, Bugged, you shouldn't marry your partner if a fast car is important to you *and* he refuses to get one *and* thinks you are a sexual deviant for wanting one.


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## Constable Odo (Feb 14, 2015)

A leopard doesn't change its spots.

If you get married, be prepared for a life with no blow jobs.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I Don't Know said:


> Telling him he's shallow, selfish, and doesn't value other human beings.
> 
> I don't know if I'd call it persecuting, but she's shamming him.
> 
> And yes, Bugged, you shouldn't marry your partner if a fast car is important to you *and* he refuses to get one *and* thinks you are a sexual deviant for wanting one.


I think she is just sharing her opinion. "Shaming" is in the eye of the beholder, I guess.


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## I Don't Know (Oct 8, 2013)

I feel like it stops being her opinion when she insults his character and assigns HER value judgments to HIS life. But then again, he's a man she's a woman why would he care what she thinks?


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
There is another active thread from a woman whos husband won't have sex with her or who views it as a chore when he does. 

If only the HD people could get together with other HDs, and the LD people with other LDs, the world would be a much happier place.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening Bugged
If a fast car matters to you, then no you should not marry someone who doesn't and never will have one. People are free to look for whatever they want in relationships. Its not his *fault* that he doesn't have a fast car, he just isn't what you want.

If he wants oral sex and you don't want to do it, its fine if he doesn't want to stay with you,

This is not about right and wrong, but about compatibility. 



Bugged said:


> But you see ..my partner despite his good looks and big heart...hasn't got a fast car... I REALLY miss the sensation of the air through my hair when someone is driving you on a deserted highway at 300km/h...it's not for the car itself you know..it's a symptom of the fact that we're financially *incompatible*...I'm afraid I'll end up in a money-less marriage and be destitute...
> Moreover the apartment we're living in is mine..and he doesn't even have a fast car..*there's no reciprocation here *you see...not good...
> Moreover he wouldn't want to marry me since I don't blow him..I'm a waste of a woman...
> 
> ...


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
but Bugged - that is the entire point. When a couple is sexually incompatible, breaking up is better for BOTH of them. 



Bugged said:


> snip
> if someone broke up with me for something like that..*I'd be ****ing GLAD he did!*!!!Saving me the trouble of dumping his ass!!!!But that's me...>
> snipo


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Bugged said:


> Noone here has a ****ing crystal ball!


Which is why I invite you to look back into the histories of many posters here who have been married to spouses who have the same sexual attitudes as Grear's fiancee. You may start with mine if you're so inclined. 

Those who describe oral sex as disgusting rarely limit that attitude to that single act. They are the same people who consider sex to be more or less optional. That some variety in the bedroom isn't necessary. That sex just isn't really all that important in a relationship. They are the people whom someone who has already left a sexless marriage should avoid like Ebola. 

So yes, none of us have a crystal ball. But you know what we do have? Pretty damned good memories. So when someone comes here actually seeking our opinion, we give him the best advice we know how. Because we, _unlike you_, have actually lived the difficult path it appears he's signing up for willingly again.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

jld said:


> I think she is just sharing her opinion. "Shaming" is in the eye of the beholder, I guess.


You've been around here long enough to understand the difference between sharing your opinion and berating everyone else for not sharing it too.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Cletus said:


> You've been around here long enough to understand the difference between sharing your opinion and berating everyone else for not sharing it too.


I do not think bugged is berating anyone. 

I am beginning to think she is being persecuted, though.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

jld said:


> I do not think bugged is berating anyone.
> 
> I am beginning to think she is being persecuted, though.


Then I'll just share my opinion that I disagree with you and leave it at that.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

jld said:


> I do not think bugged is berating anyone.
> 
> I am beginning to think she is being persecuted, though.


What bugged is trying to get across is that sex is not a need. It is a want. Any guy that complains about sex/blow jobs when the rest of the marriage is fine is being a shallow jerk.

This is what she truly believes.

For those of us that have lived through the pain of having a partner that dismisses our needs, we know she is wrong. 

For most of us, one of the main reasons we became committed to the relationship was because of sex. Feeling loved and cared for by the person we are committed to. After a number of years of marriage and having a family, it can be very tough to leave such a relationship, when it becomes apparent that their spouse no longer cares to meet this need.

The answer is very clear when we are talking about people deciding on marriage. If you are not compatible in this way, don't make the committment. It will only get worse.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
what makes these discussions so difficult is that for some people sex is a need, for others it is optional.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Who said small changes are not a big deal?

My wife has a bewildering arsenal of small but irritating behaviors that are nearly impossible to mitigate. If you think living with no BJ's is difficult, try living with her 80 dB voice... 

What you want to see is willingness to improve or change which is critical in a spouse. Failing that the crystal ball becomes a luxury as you can tell where it's going to go.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> what makes these discussions so difficult is that for some people sex is a need, for others it is optional.


Yes. I would further add that almost to the individual, people here agree that neither position is inherently superior, only that joining one with the other in a marriage is almost certainly a mistake. 

Asexuals of the world unite! Please.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Keep in mind that all of you who are berating Bugged for her opinion, are taking the stance that her opinion is wrong and yours is the only right opinion.

Bugges as a right to express her opinion as the rest of us.

Please keep your comments directed to the OP and not attacking other posters.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

grear said:


> Ok I need some advice. Things have been back to normal for us the past few days ever since the bj incident. It's been bugging me a lot since I've been going back and forth on this issue in my head. She's been casually bringing up things about our future and that makes me feel guilty. I went ahead earlier this afternoon and told her that I love her more than life. The problem is that we are sexually incompatible and for that reason, I think we should go our separate ways. Once she realized I was serious, she broke out in tears and that made me feel bad. She knew it was because of the bj thing and she said that if that's the only thing that's keeping us apart, she will do that for me if I like because she loves me. Now I feel like a really big ******* but I thought I was doing us both a favor. Five years from now, I don't want to be living like roommates in the same house. I want our sex to be everlasting and enjoyable. Now I have this thought in my head that even if I do try to make things work for her, sex will be more like a job for her rather than something she really wants to do on her on. It hurt even more when she told me that she enjoys having sex with me and there is nothing about myself that she wants me to change. I kind of regret telling her now after all the crying earlier. This isn't just some girl on the street, she is someone I really care about. I don't know if I should have put my feelings aside and forgot about this issue but now, the cats out of the bag. I know from my own experience that there are other things that I value about marriage such as honesty (my ex cheated), spending quality time together, and sharing the financial responsibilities somewhat equally. She checks all of those boxes. Do you guys think I was too harsh and was there any better way to tell her? Is there any chance in hell that we can make this relationship work and both of us be pleased sexually?


grear,

I'm going to go the other way and suggest that there IS a chance that this could work.

Now, if it's important to you that she give you blowjobs because she enjoys giving them, it's not going to work. But, the number of women that enjoy blowjobs for their own sake is small (and then I'd be a little worried that she'd be blowing random guys for fun).

I'd prefer that my wife gives me blowjobs because she cares about my happiness and enjoys giving me pleasure. Of course, if she seems like she's not enjoying giving me pleasure and doing it against her will, that's not going to work.

She's never actually given a bj (or did in her one prior sexual relationship and had a bad experience), so she may find out that it's not as bad as she imagined.

So, she's doing one of two things; either she has no intention of delivering and is trying to guilt you out of even asking or she's sincere. Call her on it, see how it goes (don't expect much and don't let it go more than 5 minutes or so. Be very appreciative). If she has a positive attitude, you may be okay. Just let her know that stopping after marriage will be a big problem if it were to happen. If you call her bluff and she doesn't follow through (or promises at a later time) then you have your answer.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

grear,

There are women who enjoy giving bj's just as there are men who enjoy doing oral sex to a woman. The motivation is the same for both men and women who enjoy doing this.

The notion that a woman who enjoys giving bj's as part of love making will be likely to going out and giving them to other men is just ridiculous. That would be like saying that a women who enjoys sex will be out of control and doing every guy she could.

I would never want a sexual act from a man that he did not enjoy doing and that he was doing just to service me. I could not enjoy something like that.

If you want to continue this relationship, I think that you need to talk with her about why she feels that bj's are demeaning. Did she have any experience in which something negative happened dealing with a bj. Or have others always told her that they are demeaning so she has taking on that opinion?

Her saying that she will give bj's so that she does not lose you is not a good compromise. In time it will become a huge issue in your marriage. Unless she grows to like giving bj’s, this will always be a problem in your marriage. She might grow to resent you a lot.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
"enjoy" is a very complex thing. I get no physical pleasure from giving my wife backrubs but I am happy to do it because she enjoys it. In fact I get no physical pleasure from giving her oral, but I enjoy doing it because her reaction is so much fun. 

So if grear's wife is happy to give him complete BJs because he enjoys them and because she likes to make him happy, that could work. The assumption is that he is happy to do things (sexual or not) to make her happy.

OTOH, if she is going to view it as a chore and resent it ,then things will not end well. She will be motivated to make sure he doesn't want it too much. She will tend to count how often she does it, and compare with things he does for her. It will feel like prostituting herself in return for his staying with her. That will be poisonous. 




Buddy400 said:


> Now, if it's important to you that she give you blowjobs because she enjoys giving them, it's not going to work. But, the number of women that enjoy blowjobs for their own sake is small (and then I'd be a little worried that she'd be blowing random guys for fun).
> 
> I.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

When you marry someone you will find that you do things for them that you don't really "feel like" doing, and they do things for you that they don't really "feel like" doing.

Think about this: What is more loving to you, a person who does something because they enjoy it, or a person who does something because you enjoy it?

I think you were right to tell her how you feel, and right to let her understand that this is so very important to you that you will not get or stay married without it. Never move away from that attitude. 

If she loves you, and you are meeting her needs and making her happy, she will want to make you happy. And if she does not care about making you happy, then you should not marry her.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Hicks said:


> Think about this: What is more loving to you, a person who does something because they enjoy it, or a person who does something because you enjoy it?


That's exactly my point.

The meaning of "enjoy" is tricky.

I enjoy going down on my wife. I wouldn't do it for any other woman.

Now, you could say since I wouldn't do it with anyone else, that I'm only doing it because of the it makes my wife happy; I'm only "servicing" her. But that's makes it sound like something other than what it is. I "enjoy" it because it gives the person I love pleasure.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

I just cleaned up. 

Please keep your comments directed to the OP.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> I just cleaned up.
> 
> Please keep your comments directed to the OP.


Hmmm... I was wondering why my last post "disappeared". 

Warning duly noted, @EleGirl.

Humbly bowing out of this one...


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> If you want to continue this relationship, I think that you need to talk with her about why she feels that bj's are demeaning. Did she have any experience in which something negative happened dealing with a bj. Or have others always told her that they are demeaning so she has taking on that opinion?
> 
> Her saying that she will give bj's so that she does not lose you is not a good compromise. In time it will become a huge issue in your marriage. Unless she grows to like giving bj’s, this will always be a problem in your marriage. She might grow to resent you a lot.


I think addressing bj's alone is missing out on a huge problem - her reaction in the first instance. She lacks a lot of maturity right now. When gear brought up the issue, she blew up at him, told him to leave her apartment and then gave him the silent treatment.

How is she going to handle other issues, sexual or otherwise? Is she going to discuss them, hearing his side, or just explode every time, throwing a tantrum? This needs to be worked out as well, before any thing goes forward.


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## Vulcan2013 (Sep 25, 2013)

I'll throw in my 2 cents. I agree that sexual incompatibility is a big red flag. And her response to you indicated disgust at "that thing", and by extension, you. That's what you should be talking about, not just the act or her being selfish. Most of the people here think she's not that into you. 

Something to consider here is her lack of experience. That's a good thing; if she'd been doing that for other guys and not you, I'd tell you to run. There's a good chance she isn't really knowledgeable about her own sexuality. You need to set expectations and draw her out. Every woman has an inner slvt. The best case is she's a lady with everyone else and only you experience that side of her. A lot of good girls have a problem getting there.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

We are dismissing her very easily. 

If she is OK with receiving oral sex but does not give, that is a sign of pure selfishness. However, there seems to be no oral sex at all, which means she might just be as naive and prudish (in the best sense) as she seems.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

*sigh*...

Just _ **sigh*...*_

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Mr The Other said:


> We are dismissing her very easily.
> 
> If she is OK with receiving oral sex but does not give, that is a sign of pure selfishness. However, there seems to be no oral sex at all, which means she might just be as naive and prudish (in the best sense) as she seems.


I wonder about that too. Which is why I suggested that he talk to her if he wants to continue with the marriage. 

I agree.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
I don't know that it matters. I don't see the issue as her being selfish, or in any other way bad. Its just that they are not sexually compatible and that neither of them is likely to be happy when they are married. 



Mr The Other said:


> We are dismissing her very easily.
> 
> If she is OK with receiving oral sex but does not give, that is a sign of pure selfishness. However, there seems to be no oral sex at all, which means she might just be as naive and prudish (in the best sense) as she seems.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

Quite so.

Marriage is actually far more extreme than calling off the wedding. This is perhaps a side issue of whether we can dismiss a woman as being selfish for not wanting to give oral sex. 

I like giving it and receiving it too. If I did not, it would be preference rather than selfishness. That there was no mention in the post of whether she receives is a gap.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

grear, how are you doing?


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## grear (Jul 5, 2015)

morituri said:


> grear, how are you doing?


I'm good. We've been giving each other some space right now to make sure we are making the right choice. She actually told me that there is no specific reason why she doesn't do that. She just says that she's always viewed it as disgusting and demeaning. She says that she didn't realize that it meant so much to me and that if that's what it takes to make me happy, she will start doing that when we have sex. Still, i'm skeptical since this might be a temporary change. At this point, I don't know if we will stay together or not.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

grear said:


> I'm good. We've been giving each other some space right now to make sure we are making the right choice. She actually told me that there is no specific reason why she doesn't do that. *She just says that she's always viewed it as disgusting and demeaning. *She says that she didn't realize that it meant so much to me and that if that's what it takes to make me happy, she will start doing that when we have sex. Still, i'm skeptical since this might be a temporary change. At this point, I don't know if we will stay together or not.


I really don't like the use of those words in this context. 

I think the words people use say a lot. In my younger days, I made the mistake of thinking that a relationship was more meaningful than it was. When the guy in this relationship referred to it as "messing around", I knew it was time to move on.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

Grear, there's a big difference between her wanting to so it enthusiastically, without prompting and her doing it because she perceives it as a duty to make you happy. I'm not claiming to know which she may see it as at this moment, because your talk may have given her something to think about. You have to at least let her process your truth. 

I used to dislike bj's for a time, because I had a pretty horrible experience with my ex H when we were engaged and at the very start of things. I was young and less sexually mature.... But didn't think it was demeaning, just had some high anxiety and convinced myself it was unpleasant. Fast forward some years and with added life experience, I have an entirely different perspective on bj's now. I find them most enjoyable. 

Be very sure that she understands you will not pressure her into doing something she does not feel good about doing. Be sure to reiterate in certain terms to her that this is important to you if it is. Incompatibility is not the be all and end all to an otherwise good thing, so long as one of you can compromise with NO feelings of resentment and with zen acceptance. For many, even with good intentions of compromise, it's not very likely. The thing being compromised is too important, and the person compromising will feel they made a sacrifice. 

Neither of you is wrong in what you each want or how you each perceive oral sex, but it IS wrong for either of you to feel you have unfairly compromised for the other... Or have enormous guilt for asking your desires. Feelings like these breed resentment (from one or even both) and eventually, over time, the relationship will suffer from that resentment and crumble.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Tall Average Guy said:


> I think addressing bj's alone is missing out on a huge problem - her reaction in the first instance. She lacks a lot of maturity right now. When gear brought up the issue, she blew up at him, told him to leave her apartment and then gave him the silent treatment.
> 
> How is she going to handle other issues, sexual or otherwise? Is she going to discuss them, hearing his side, or just explode every time, throwing a tantrum? This needs to be worked out as well, before any thing goes forward.


To be fair, Grear's wording of events did not exactly make him come across as a saint, either. It appears as though he did not ask for this gently, and basically said "give me oral sex" (I don't remember the exact wording he used in his analogy, but it's in one of the earlier posts).

So depending on how he approached this subject at that particular moment, perhaps his fiancee was justified in flipping out a little bit. Especially if she was not used to this during sex with Grear.

I learned this the hard way, too (though with less flipping out). Sex between my wife and I always incorporated oral sex. I spent many years with my ex wife in which it didn't. Therefore I started to take it for granted. It got to the point where I was simply putting myself near her mouth at times, non-verbally asking/telling her to do it.

It did not take long before she had some strong words for me in that regard. Never did it again. Instead, she goes to it, if she so chooses (which is the majority of the time, fwiw).

So it sounds like Grear essentially did the same thing, perhaps verbally, but to somebody who doesn't do that at all. I wouldn't really blame her, tbh.


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## stevehowefan (Apr 3, 2013)

My wife is not crazy about giving or receiving oral. She says that because her mouth is "small," it hurts her mouth. She has no specific reason why she doesn't like receiving it. And to be fair, she never really has.


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## Constable Odo (Feb 14, 2015)

stevehowefan said:


> My wife is not crazy about giving or receiving oral. She says that because her mouth is "small," it hurts her mouth. She has no specific reason why she doesn't like receiving it. And to be fair, she never really has.


Unless you're incredibly huge, I don't think she needs to worry about getting stretch-marks on her cheeks.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

stevehowefan said:


> My wife is not crazy about giving or receiving oral. She says that because her mouth is "small," it hurts her mouth. She has no specific reason why she doesn't like receiving it. And to be fair, she never really has.


I don't get the "small mouth" defense at all.

To be fair, I have a big yap (as evidenced here on TAM ) but there are ways to be creative with oral sex when it comes to a size mismatch.

I think the whole "small mouth" argument is pretty lame...

Just my 2 cents...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## stevehowefan (Apr 3, 2013)

Constable Odo said:


> Unless you're incredibly huge, I don't think she needs to worry about getting stretch-marks on her cheeks.



Haha, I belong to the Average Joe's club.



happy as a clam said:


> I don't get the "small mouth" defense at all.
> 
> To be fair, I have a big yap (as evidenced here on TAM ) but there are ways to be creative with oral sex when it comes to a size mismatch.
> 
> ...



Lol, I agree. She did have some snags removed when she was younger because the teeth wouldn't fit in her mouth and was causing pain.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

The whole "disgusting and demeaning" comment is reminiscent of how many women in decades (millenia?) past were taught by their mothers, when they were little girls, not to touch their genitalia (masturbation) because it was disgusting and demeaning. In many cultures, and subcultures, this practice still goes on. Could you tell us something about her background, religious and cultural?


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
I'd really stress the "compatibility" issue. Make it clear that both of you will be unhappy if your sexual interests are not in line. 

Maybe view this as a chance to talk about sex. What is an ideal sex life for her? For you? Is there a a range of things that will make BOTH of you happy, not one of you constantly pressured, and one of you constantly frustrated.

Its no one's fault. 

I would strongly suggest "compromises" in the form "I'll give you oral but not finish you that way", or I'll do it but only once a month. She has to be happy to do this for you (even if she doesn't enjoy it). At the same time you have to be happy doing what she wants. If she wants quiet romantic lovemaking with candles and massage oil for hours every Sunday evening, then you have to be happy doing that for her.

Each of you has to be happy to please the other, not feel that it is some sort of chore you need to put up with.

Tell her you are getting advice from people in decades long marriages, where they truly love each other, but sexual incompatibility is a huge strain. 

Talk to a counselor. Or have her join here? Make sure you both understand how the other feels. 





grear said:


> I'm good. We've been giving each other some space right now to make sure we are making the right choice. She actually told me that there is no specific reason why she doesn't do that. She just says that she's always viewed it as disgusting and demeaning. She says that she didn't realize that it meant so much to me and that if that's what it takes to make me happy, she will start doing that when we have sex. Still, i'm skeptical since this might be a temporary change. At this point, I don't know if we will stay together or not.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

grear said:


> morituri said:
> 
> 
> > grear, how are you doing?
> ...


How would she feel if you said "I never thought of oral sex in that way......I always wanted to for your pleasure....but now that you say that, I should not do that to you any more either."


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

Divinely Favored said:


> grear said:
> 
> 
> > morituri said:
> ...


Also wondered if she had one of those bra burning mothers that told her it was demeaning to women.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

grear said:


> I'm good. We've been giving each other some space right now to make sure we are making the right choice. She actually told me that there is no specific reason why she doesn't do that. She just says that she's always viewed it as disgusting and demeaning. She says that she didn't realize that it meant so much to me and that if that's what it takes to make me happy, she will start doing that when we have sex. Still, i'm skeptical since this might be a temporary change. At this point, I don't know if we will stay together or not.


Putting your mouth on a woman's cooch is waaaaaaay more unhygienic than a woman giving a BJ. Unless you are uncircumcised and never bathe, the human male penis is usually not a particularly dirty body part as long as the man keeps himself clean and showered. 

The female vagina on the other hand secretes mucus, lubricants, enzymes, and sometimes bacteria that are not entirely flavorful. By all accounts it is far more "disgusting" and "demeaning" for you to do it for her than for her to do it for you. So what, does she think her puss is made of sterile gold? 

Have you brought up her hypocrisy and entitlement to her?


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## T&T (Nov 16, 2012)

Gee, thanks Bandit lol


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

T&T said:


> Gee, thanks Bandit lol


Well am I wrong?

Look, there are few men who love going down on a woman more than I. If a woman is clean, hygienic, infection free, and does me the courtesy of showering before we make love, I will be happy to do oral on her until my tongue locks up. 

I just think it's extremely selfish and entitled of her to enjoy Grear's ministrations while avoiding pleasuring him in return because it's "demeaning". She needs to grow the hell up.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

bandit.45 said:


> The female vagina on the other hand secretes mucus, lubricants, enzymes, and sometimes bacteria that are not entirely flavorful. By all accounts it is far more "disgusting" and "demeaning" for you to do it for her than for her to do it for you. So what, does she think her puss is made of sterile gold?
> 
> Have you brought up her hypocrisy and entitlement to her?


Due to my heterosexual nature, I can't vouch for the smells emanating from unhygienic males - I defer that point to the TAM ladies experiences with such gentlemen - but I can vouch that of all the women I was sexually intimate with, only one had a case of bacterial vaginosis and she was kind and decent enough to tell me before we "went there" and asked me if we could wait until she was clear of it. My other male buddies have had similar experiences with "odorous female genitalia", leading me to my general opinion that "smelly" vaginas are not that big issue because most women take care of this when it presents itself to them.

But as far as the OP's STBXfiancee attitude that male genitalia is "disgusting and demeaning" is concerned, I fear that this may have probably passed on by her mother and/or other female family member(s) who has resentment issues towards men in general. If this is to ingrained into her psyche, then the best thing to do for any man is to simply not marry this kind of woman, despite all her other good qualities.


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## T&T (Nov 16, 2012)

bandit.45 said:


> Well am I wrong?


Ummm, I have no idea, Bandit. I've never gone down on a male! 

I'll leave that to the ladies that post. :rofl:


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

T&T said:


> Ummm, I have no idea, Bandit. I've never gone down on a male!
> 
> I'll leave that to the ladies that post. :rofl:


Just to complete the little bit of education going on here....

Yes, there are guys who do not clean themselves properly. Even after the end of the day, a guy who showed in the morning can be pretty smelly.


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## grear (Jul 5, 2015)

bandit.45 said:


> Putting your mouth on a woman's cooch is waaaaaaay more unhygienic than a woman giving a BJ. Unless you are uncircumcised and never bathe, the human male penis is usually not a particularly dirty body part as long as the man keeps himself clean and showered.
> 
> The female vagina on the other hand secretes mucus, lubricants, enzymes, and sometimes bacteria that are not entirely flavorful. By all accounts it is far more "disgusting" and "demeaning" for you to do it for her than for her to do it for you. So what, does she think her puss is made of sterile gold?
> 
> Have you brought up her hypocrisy and entitlement to her?


You know I haven't brought this up to her but you make a good point. I've gone down on almost every woman I've been with because that was something I liked to do. I won't brag but I will say that I'm note quite good at what I do. Even she told me that the loves when I go down on her and her emotions show that. Looking at the big picture, it makes her view a little more strange because I don't understand how it's all fine and dandy when I'm going down on her but once the tables are turned, It's nasty and demeaning.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> Just to complete the little bit of education going on here....
> 
> Yes, there are guys who do not clean themselves properly. Even after the end of the day, a guy who showed in the morning can be pretty smelly.


I would never let a woman go down on me unless I was bathed throughly and clean as a whistle down there. Men who don't care enough to be properly clean prior to getting a BJ are disgusting hogs and should be dragged naked out into the street and beaten to within an inch of their lives.

I can't abide that kind of rudeness towards a woman.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

grear said:


> You know I haven't brought this up to her but you make a good point. I've gone down on almost every woman I've been with because that was something I liked to do. I won't brag but I will say that I'm note quite good at what I do. Even she told me that the loves when I go down on her and her emotions show that. Looking at the big picture, it makes her view a little more strange because I don't understand how it's all fine and dandy when I'm going down on her but once the tables are turned, It's nasty and demeaning.


It's called selfishness and entitlement. It is a manifestation of what she believes deep down in her soul: that she is better than you.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

grear said:


> I don't understand how it's all fine and dandy when I'm going down on her but once the tables are turned, It's nasty and demeaning.


Maybe she is a closet lesbian. Ask her if she ever fantasized about making love to another woman.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

In the movie footloose he uses "wrap your skinny legs around" as an insult. Is missionary off the table now too?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> In the movie footloose he uses "wrap your skinny legs around" as an insult. Is missionary off the table now too?



For a surprising number of people yes


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

grear, what else does she find "disgusting and demeaning"?


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## EnigmaGirl (Feb 7, 2015)

> She said it was demeaning and she would never "put that thing anywhere near my face".


I haven't read all the pages on this thread so I'm not sure if I'm giving duplicate advice but I can tell you that if someone I loved and was considering marrying said this about any part of my body, I'd never have sex with them again. I would so incredibly insulted by this statement.

There's not an inch of my husband's body that I don't completely love and wouldn't kiss or put my mouth on...especially his genitalia. 

You should not continue a relationship with a woman that feels this way about you and your body if you expect to have a marriage with a decent sex life. If she has these kind of weird, unhealthy hang-ups...I'd be very worried about the bait and switch.

She's baiting you with half-decent sex and will immediately turn into a frigid ice-queen after you put a ring on her finger.

A large part of being in love with someone is loving every part of them....especially their physical form. What happens when you're sick or old and need care? Is she going to be grossed out by you then too?


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Bugged said:


> reasons why:
> 
> ****sucker is an INSULT...I've heard people throw it at both men and women...is there an insult as ***** -eater or something like that? In my native language there isn't...maybe in english there is an equivalent?I'd really like to know...
> 
> ...



"Eat me" is about the only one fit to print on the board. Yes, there are equivalents in the English language.

"Go F yourself" would be similarly insulting, yet I don't find masturbation particularly demeaning.

When I was a small child, "Go fly a kite" was used as an insult. Yet we all flew kites without shame.

Here are some more words that are epithets to some people but not to others: Mother. ******. Christian. Jew. Republican. Democrat. *******. Gay. See where I'm going with this? In some social circles and situations, each of those words most certainly are used as insults. But that doesn't make any of those categories of people inherently bad. Sex is the same thing.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
I think you are missing a key point. Its not a case of "kicking to the curb". From many of us in long term mismatched sexual relationships they will BOTH be unhappy. 

How could she be happy if she loves him but cannot bring herself to do things he wants. How can he be happy feeling constantly rejected. 








Bugged said:


> So this woman, noone here knows, deserves to be kicked to the curb because of what *YOUR *wives have done?
> She's going to bear the label of LD/sex averse, she's going to to have to expiate someone else's sins?
> **** that...
> Now, *talking of projection*...:|


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening Bugged
serious question: Where did you learn about love, sex and intimacy? 

People use derogatory terms for all sorts behavior that can be loving an intimate: "Fxxx you" or "kiss my azz". This represents the duality that unwanted or forced sex is awful, but wanted sex is wonderful. A female friend of mine once said that the terrible thing about rape is that it takes something wonderful and fun and makes it terrible. 

Please don't let offensive slang interfere with your image of wonderful human lovemaking. 




Bugged said:


> reasons why:
> 
> ****sucker is an INSULT...I've heard people throw it at both men and women...is there an insult as ***** -eater or something like that? In my native language there isn't...maybe in english there is an equivalent?I'd really like to know...
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Bugged,

I genuinely like you. And I also think it's perfectly fine that you don't like sex all that much. 

This is just a gentle observation: I believe you find the idea of oral sex totally gross and have 'reverse engineered' a social reason for not wanting to do it. 

The photos you selected to make your point are a perfect example of what folks do when they are reverse engineering. The standing PLUS hand on head completely changes the dynamic. For many folks THAT setup IS demeaning. But that's one way to do it. Not THE way. 

Like I said, don't do something you dislike. But be honest about why. 





Bugged said:


> What about this anti-smoking advertising, I posted this already in another thread..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

Bugged said:


> Mem,
> >
> I've repeatedly said I think it's gross. I was giving some examples to OP since he can't fathom that his fiance' thinks bjs are demeaning...
> I really don't think I or anyone needs to defend themselves for what they like or dislike ..As I've already said you don't need a valid reason other that you dont' like it.
> it's take it or leave it..OP wants to leave it..apparently...>>


is this true with all things in a marriage.

what if your spouse doesn't like holding your hand? wouldn't you want to know why?


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

happy as a clam said:


> I don't get the "small mouth" defense at all.
> 
> To be fair, I have a big yap (as evidenced here on TAM ) but there are ways to be creative with oral sex when it comes to a size mismatch.
> 
> ...


It's a thing, and it's real - I lived it. Ex wife had a small mouth/jaw, and it was not an easy thing for her to do. She DID do it, until one day her jaw locked open.

To her credit, it did happen occasionally after that, but she was extremely careful and cautious. Then it stopped altogether probably 3 or 4 years before we divorced. Ostensibly because of her jaw issues, but I'm not so sure...


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

grear said:


> I've gone down on almost every woman I've been with because that was something I liked to do. I won't brag but I will say that I'm note quite good at what I do. Even she told me that the loves when I go down on her and her emotions show that.


This is neither here nor there, and a bit off-topic, but it's worth mentioning that no man can or will please all women using the same techniques. You may drive partner "A" crazy, but partner "B" may wonder what in the hell you're doing down there. In other words, all women are different, like different things, have varying degrees of sensitivities in that area, and so on and so forth.

The true mark of a man being good at giving oral sex is his ability to listen and to watch (mostly listen!).


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Bugged said:


> Mem,
> >
> I've repeatedly said I think it's gross. I was giving some examples to OP since he can't fathom that his fiance' thinks bjs are demeaning...
> I really don't think I or anyone needs to defend themselves for what they like or dislike ..As I've already said you don't need a valid reason other that you dont' like it.
> it's take it or leave it..OP wants to leave it..apparently...>>



Mem is just trying to ask why you feel the way you do, other than "it's gross". You are under no obligation to answer the question, or otherwise "defend" yourself, of course.

However, you have entered a discussion and put forth your personal stance on it, so the "why" IS important, imo. Without adding anything further to your words, you are merely repeating the same thing, several times over in this thread.

Those of us who are taking part in this thread HAVE put our own experiences forth in order to explain where we're coming from and give it some context. Thus far, we have very little context coming from you, which makes it difficult to understand your reasoning.

Are you able to tell us WHY you find it gross, at least?


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

And has communication between Grear and his former intended restarted? 
MN


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Bugged said:


> So this woman, noone here knows, deserves to be kicked to the curb because of what *YOUR *wives have done?
> She's going to bear the label of LD/sex averse, she's going to to have to expiate someone else's sins?
> **** that...
> Now, *talking of projection*...:|


What is the single most predictive measure of a person's future behavior, far and away?

Her past behavior. Now that she has used the words "disgusting" and "demeaning" in regards to a common sexual practice, we are no longer projecting our relationships onto hers. We are projecting her past behavior onto her future behavior, with a little dose of what other attitudes we know from experience correlates with someone who says those things. 

Pout, cry, whine about it, dismiss us, and call us all knuckle-dragging neanderthals to your heart's content, if you makes you feel better at the end of the day. My interest lies in warning Grear of his future circumstances, not keeping you happy. 

So OP: you've been warned. Hardly anyone on this forum has a sexually satisfying relationship with someone who describes any part of his or her sex life in those terms. You might beat the odds. Are you a betting man?


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## Tears In Heaven (Jul 13, 2015)

No, Before we got married, We talk about Subject's that hurt us since we were young until we met. That way? we both don't get surprise if we see, hear and found something from our hurtful past BLOW-UP in front of our face by person, place or thing. She might have a oral sex problem she had to do by someone who force her? If (YOU) truly )LOVE) her? Talk to her gently and find Help from a Marriage Counselor at a Good Christian Church that has a Good Standard with the community that (YOU) live in. That is what we did even we weren't Christian but found how to talk about our past hurt and pain. make sure their is a Man and Woman to counsel (YOU BOTH) at the same time in the room and You talk to a Man Counselor and she talk to a Woman Counselor if you need to do one on one counseling before YOU BOTH join together in the same room later. (You know what I mean) Hope this can answer your Hope, Dream and understanding for your BOTH FUTURE TOGETHER. (LOVE, TRUST, RESPECT, RESPONSIBILITY AND UNDERSTANDING) make a Marriage Work....


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
I think there is a LOT of variation. Some women like you hate it. Some think its OK. Some love doing it. Some sadly will pretend to be happy doing it to "catch" a man, then stop after marriage, but I hope that is a very small minority. 

All that is fine. I think the key is just to be sure that a couple's interests are compatible. 

From various discussions and a bit of personal experience, I think women who enjoy giving oral are more likely to be open minded and passionate lovers - which is important to some people. 



Bugged said:


> snip
> .I think most women are not so keen on fellatio..otherwise it wouldn't magically disappear after marriage (according to methuselah's polls results at least>).


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## tornado (Jan 10, 2014)

I don't think many things sexually should be off the table for a couple. As long it's between them. She not only took it off the table she was adamant that it was not even a discussion. I think that's a giant red flag. OP has to settle for no BJ's first (which are fantastic) but what else is gonna be removed from the table later on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

The first BJ I ever gave was after I got married. The ONLY one who has ever received from me is my husband. The idea never crossed my mind until then, and he never brought it up. There are, for sure, some things that are off the table with us, and we agree on them. The key here is that we AGREE. Neither of us said any part of the other's body was disgusting or demeaning. And neither of us had the mentality that the other would just have to live with it, with no discussion as to WHY we felt that way. So, I agree that grear needs to have that honest discussion with this woman and find out WHY she feels that way... and if it's something he can live with afterward. But it is definitely an honest conversation he needs to have with her.


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## Seppuku (Sep 22, 2010)

Here's my two cents:

Every person is different, and to characterize their personal feelings as inherently right or wrong is presumptuous, at best. Her feelings and your feeling about fellatio are different - what you have to evaluate is your ability as a couple to come into alignment regarding these feelings. The outcomes can be varied, but they are predictable - either you accept that she is unwilling to do it, or she accepts that she can try to do it to make you happy, or you find some compromise in the middle.

The trouble lies in the execution - would you grow to resent her for never doing? Would she grow to resent you for making her do it? The likelihood of this is, in my opinion, very high.

Unless you can (again as a couple) examine and come to terms with why she feels this way, it will be a sore spot. Was she molested as a child and forced to perform fellatio? Did she have an abusive father figure and perhaps saw her mother doing it to him? Did someone teach her that it's "disgusting?" Did she try it once and have a bad experience? Did she just come to that conclusion out of thin air? Does she view it as her being somehow submissive to you, doing something only for your gratification?

None of these reason are invalid, but I'll bet that there are some that you would agree are higher hurdles to jump, and one or two may be impossible to overcome. Given her reaction to your request (as you described it "like you just took the last apple"), it is likely a past experience.

The true measure of your relationship is her willingness to share these things with you openly, discuss how they make you both feel, and come to a mutual agreement going forward.

As it pertains to sexual compatibility, I would say that right now you two are not there yet. If you can get there, go forward. If you can't, it's your poison to drink.

I would strongly suggest that you ask her how she'd feel if you reacted the same way she did. This will give you some much needed insight into whether or not she cares to compromise. She could be telling you she'll try it, but if she's focused on her own hangup more than your pleasure, it is not likely to last and the resentment will enter the picture - either she'll continue doing it begrudgingly (making her resent you) or she'll stop doing it (making you resent her).


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> I think there is a LOT of variation. Some women like you hate it. Some think its OK. Some love doing it. Some sadly will pretend to be happy doing it to "catch" a man, then stop after marriage, but I hope that is a very small minority.
> 
> All that is fine. I think the key is just to be sure that a couple's interests are compatible.
> ...


 @Bugged - thank you for answering the question, it's appreciated. I get it now - you don't really HAVE a reason, you just do, and that IS fine, honestly.

Richard summed it all up very nicely in the quote above, and this is how many of us see this topic - that there is no "norm" when it comes to this. Some people love it, some people hate it, some people tolerate it, some people don't mind either way. I honestly don't believe, however, that any one of those is statistically higher than the other. I think one of the issues some of us were having with your thoughts on the topic is that you are assuming that the majority of women hate it, or at least dislike it. I am not overly experienced, sexually (5 sexual partners, another 5 doing everything but PIV), and I have yet to come across a woman who despises it, or otherwise finds it disgusting. My wife is the only one who does not/will not do oral sex as a standalone thing. But she does do it as part of sex/foreplay. Out of 10 total sexual interactions with 10 different women, all have incorporated oral sex as part of the interaction, or as the entire interaction.

I want to say, I don't get the impression that anybody here is trying to change you (least of all me). Maybe one or two comments directed at you by others in those regards, but for me, it was mainly about how you've been coming across. It really didn't matter, the message you are/were trying to convey, it was in the execution.

As Cletus said above (and don't worry, he's always blunt like that!) the bulk of us giving advice to Grear have reasons for doing so, not just "because". I, personally, was somewhat insulted that you initially made this out to be a gender thing, in terms of being derogatory.

As I said way, WAY earlier in this thread, it's not so much about the act in question, it's about compatibility, sex in general, and several other things, not just oral sex. To be fair, your disagreement with the issue at hand basically boiled down to "because I said so" and "because that's how *I* feel", without a whole lot of experiential words to back it up. I don't believe one person in this thread said you were wrong for believing what you believe (and you're not), we just required more information as to the "why". 

I'm obviously not a moderator, but I strongly believe different perspectives are necessary in threads like this, regardless of whether they're against the grain or not. They just need to be backed up with qualitative data in order to be taken seriously.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Bugged said:


> on second thought I thinks* SHE should call the wedding off*...he's not marriage material...


Yes, he IS marriage material. Just not perhaps with her. 

I've been married 30 years now to a woman who, had I known her sexual attitudes before the wedding, I might well have pushed away, knowing what I now know. Am I not marriage material? Am I shallow, oversexed, disinterested in my partner's emotional well being? 

No, I am not, and you are misinformed (to pick the most gracious adjective available) for saying otherwise. What I am is three decades the wiser about what sexual compatibility means to a marriage. Wanting a bj from a woman who believes it to be demeaning and disgusting belies a very deep well of possible incompatibility.

Should you feel under attack for me saying this, then go back and re-read your own words with a eye towards how judgement laden they are about those who are advising Grear to tread very carefully.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Let's also not lose sight of the fact that Grear already has one failed sexless marriage under his belt. Sexual compatibility is something he NEEDS to be sure of this time through.


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## EnigmaGirl (Feb 7, 2015)

> What I still think it's ludicrous is to dump someone for someting as trivial as oral sex (OP's words)..to me it shows a weakness of character...and messed up priorities..you don't trade people for bjs...after one YEAR together..after you proposed because she' so awesome and perfect..something is off...that's what most people here don't like me to say...


I think when someone that's supposed to be in love with you enough to spend the rest of their lives with you says "I wouldn't put that thing anywhere near my face"...its a more serious matter than just oral sex though.

Who talks like that to someone they supposedly love? Its so incredibly insulting and is designed to make someone feel dirty about their sexuality, their desires and their body. If someone said something that rude and insensitive to me, I wouldn't be able to dump them fast enough. 

Maybe its just me but I need to feel adored and loved by my partner....not just at my best but at my worst. I need to feel that he loves who I am and what I am. So sexual incompatibility and someone who would insult my body and natural desires is soooo not for me. I think this isn't a small matter at all...it would be a HUGE deal breaker for me. 

I also think this is just the tip of the iceberg with this person. She sounds seriously repressed and there's no way I would want to have a sexual relationship with someone like this. I need someone who's creative, open-minded, and loving in bed. The last thing I'd want to deal with is a frigid, high-strung person who wants boring sex in a sterile environment. This will get worse over time and this guy is going to end up one very frustrated individual. 

(By the way, I asked my husband if he could live without oral sex when I started typing this post and he's still laughing and shaking his head)


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## EnigmaGirl (Feb 7, 2015)

> on second thought I thinks SHE should call the wedding off...he's not marriage material...I'd send a note to the guests explaining exactly why the wedding was called off..he shouldn't mind..since it's a perfectly acceptable motive apparently.


He's not marriage material because he wants a woman that doesn't insult his body and who he has sexual compatibility with?

By the way, if he told me or any of my friends or family that he was calling off the wedding because she said that...we'd all totally get it and tell him he did the right thing. I wouldn't wish a woman with these types of rigid, weird hang-ups on any man.


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## EnigmaGirl (Feb 7, 2015)

> I keep on reading marriage is a sexual relationship..maybe..but it can't be that at its core..otherwise it would be no different than a sexual relationship with a hooker.


If you don't get the difference between a getting oral sex from a partner who loves you and adores your body and sexuality...and getting it from a hooker...I certainly can't explain it to you.

Sexual acts in marriage are completely about love and about physically worshipping the person you've chosen to spend your life with. 

And biology-wise, its often sex that creates the pair-bonding hormones that help to ensure monogamy in long-term relationships. In other words, love and sex are intertwined for most couples in a way that one doesn't exist well without the other.

Can some well established relationships healthily exist without sex or with modified sex acts? Yes, sometimes if there's reasons that the other person can't perform normal sex. But with two normal healthy adults who have no reason not to be having sex, the chances aren't good.



> Now OP is trading a perfect and owesome woman for a bj...he's not marriage material in my opinion..


You keep saying this but its not really the entire issue as I previously stated. Plus the manner in which she told him was insulting, rude and demeaning.



> How many people enjoy a wild sex life after 30 years..or even after 3...not many apparently


I've been with my husband for 6 years, we're both middle-aged and I can tell you that good sex is key component of not only our relationship but our physical and mental health. I honestly attribute one of the reasons that we're aging so well to the fact that we are extremely sexually active and experimental. 



> well then pray you never get tmj


If there's a health issue, I actually totally get having to modify sex. it happens and couples have to work around it.

Having someone insult my body who has nothing wrong with her...that's a different issue. She sounds like she has something seriously wrong with her in my opinion and she certainly doesn't sound like she's in love with the OP. People don't talk that way to people they love.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Bugged said:


> >
> 
> well then pray you never get tmj
> >


There is a HUGE difference between not being able to do something due to physical limitations and/or medical ailments vs not doing something because "you're not getting that _thing_ anywhere near my face"/because you think it is a demeaning act. I have a HORRIBLE gag reflex. It is so bad that even numbing lozenges and sprays don't help. And the taste is bitter. I still do it for my husband. It isn't an everyday or even every week thing, but if he has just taken a shower and we are in the mood, I will do it. Bottom line is these two are not sexually compatible. If he wants a fulfilling sex life with his partner/wife, this is NOT the woman for him. It doesn't make him a bad person. It doesn't make her a bad person, either. They just are not compatible. You can love someone and still not be completely compatible with them. And you can be sexually compatible with someone and not be compatible otherwise. My question, though, is why would you choose to settle for something that you really don't want? IOW, if you desire a satisfying sex life with your partner, why would you set out to have a relationship with someone who does not meet that need? It makes no sense at all.


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## T&T (Nov 16, 2012)

2 words...Sex therapist


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## T&T (Nov 16, 2012)

Bugged said:


> Moreover I'm the only one sticking to OP dilemma


 Do you really see it that way, Bugged?


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Don't know if you're still following your thread @grear but if you are, here's my suggestion. Make of list of all of the qualities that you consider "Must Haves" in a partner. Include those attributes that you feel you NEED to have to be in a happy relationship. Then compare that list with your current partner's attributes and if she's not checking off every single item, then I think you need to stop seeing her and start looking for the gal who will meet your "Must Haves" qualities. 

You may or may never find your ideal match but at least you can be happy that you didn't settle and therefore didn't cheat a potential partner from finding a man who thinks of them as _perfect_. My 2 cents.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Bugged said:


> @alexm
> 
> What I still think it's ludicrous is to dump someone for someting as trivial as oral sex (OP's words)..to me it shows a weakness of character...and messed up priorities..you don't trade people for bjs...after one YEAR together..after you proposed because she' so awesome and perfect..something is off...that's what most people here don't like me to say...
> >


 @Bugged, I've tried a few times in this thread to get you to understand that it is not about BJ's, as have others. It's a red herring. Yet here you are, still hung up on the particular act, and nothing else. I'm 100% confident that @grear also understands himself that it is not about BJ's, but it IS about rejection. Having had a previously sexless marriage (or 3 years of it, anyway), he certainly does not want a repeat.

Rejection is an awful feeling for anybody. Sexual rejection is particularly difficult within a relationship/marriage.

You find oral sex gross and demeaning. You are biased within this thread, for starters. Those of us who do not find it gross or demeaning understand what Grear is actually saying. You are hung up on BJ's, full stop. Period. End of story.

Grear's best advice will come from people who are, or have been, in his shoes, or at the very least, feel the same way he does about sexual compatibility and/or sexual rejection from a loved one.

With all due respect, you giving sexual compatibility advice to a couple due to be married is like me giving motorcycle racing advice to somebody based on the fact that I ride my bicycle everywhere I go. And hate motorcycles.

This is why you are getting some backlash, imo, NOT your difference of opinion. Differences of opinion are great and make the world a more interesting place. But differences of opinion are taken much more seriously when there's experience to back it up.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
I met my wife in 1980. When we have sex it is often quite wild and wonderful. 



Bugged said:


> How many people enjoy a wild sex life after 30 years..or even after 3...not many apparently


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

When a woman says "I do", it is short for "I do .... not have to blow him anymore".


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Personal said:


> Then you haven't married my wife or my ex-wife or and the list goes on etc.
> 
> Perhaps the common factor in your premise is you, rather than whom you may have married.


I tend to think along the same lines. Lots of things wither away and die after marriage, if either partner does not put in what they did while dating. And it goes both ways, too.

It's only natural for people to put in their best efforts during the courtship process, which in return, brings out the best in the other person as well.

The old joke of "no BJ's after marriage" is just that - a joke, and one that has become a common refrain among men AND women. My wife literally just cracked it yesterday 

The way I see it is that there are things people generally do FOR each other. Things that are not generally important to one side, but are to the other. During the courtship process, we all tend to put forth this effort in spades, yet the more confident we are that we have found a partner who will not leave (which is the point of courtship) the less interested we become in doing things we don't see as important to US. It's subconscious a lot of the time, too.

Now the joke goes that the woman consciously takes oral sex off the table once they've got their man, but I don't think this is generally the case. Courtship is all about showing the other person how great of a mate you will be. Once you have "locked it down", this subconscious drive to prove your mating ability can, and does (but not always) wither away.

Somebody mentioned way earlier in this thread that relationships/marriage should not be "tit for tat", but that's exactly what they should be. When you actually say it out loud (or read it) like that, it doesn't sound good, no. But it's common sense. The whole theory of "you get what you give" is absolutely key to a good, or great, relationship, it really is.

And that's where compatibility comes in to play. If one person says "I'm no longer willing to do this or that", then they have to expect something similar in return. And more often than we like, these things turn into a death spiral for the relationship.

Desire creates desire. And if one person shows even a smidgen less than the other, or steadfastly won't budge on one thing or the other, then the other person is less likely to want to do something for their partner that they deem unnecessary or unimportant to them, even though it may be for their partner. Most of us, sadly, have relationships like this.

My wife does not do standalone oral sex, which is her prerogative and her right, and really isn't a bone of contention for me. I'm fine without, though obviously it would be nice.

Now, if she were to change her tune about that, then she would benefit by my increased desire to be non-sexually intimate with her, for example (something she occasionally decries about our relationship). And before anybody says "why don't you be non-sexually intimate with her first, and see if she responds to that" - been there, done that, especially in the courtship process. I did have a desire to snuggle and cuddle and be close to her in a non-sexual way (and I still do, to a certain degree). But if she had the desire to be closer to me sexually, my desire to be closer to her in her chosen way would, in return, be higher.

It's important to point out that I don't withhold affection to my wife in a non-sexual way on purpose (or completely). It really IS a subconscious thing, as far as I'm concerned. The people who have truly great marriages have this thing figured out, on both sides, yet that, unfortunately, is not the norm.

I gave this example a while back in another thread, but relationships and marriages are like jobs or careers. The parallels are uncanny. You go to school and become educated; you learn. You start by working crappy little jobs in the summer, or part time jobs, or internships. Eventually you find a career path that interests you, and you work at finding a job in that field. Everybody quits a job or gets fired at some point in their life. And when you finally find a job or career that you want to be in for the long haul, you settle into it.

You go to work, and you WORK. The more you work, the better off you are (usually...), the more you get paid, etc. And no matter what field you're in, no matter how good your career choice is over all, you still have off days, or days you want to call in sick or days you can't be bothered. You still have to "play the game" when you go to work, smile when you don't want to, go above and beyond when warranted, be nice to clients you can't stand, etc.

And in return, you expect to be appreciated, noticed, and above all, get from your employer what you give to them.

If you put in 60 hours a week, only get paid for 40, and your employer doesn't even recognize the extra 20 hours, before long you won't be willing to do that. 5 o'clock comes around and you go home whether you're in the middle of something or not. Your job ends up being a pay cheque and nothing more. You're still a good employee, or at least not worthy of being let go.

And this is how many marriages wind up. "Good enough". It's like work-to-rule - you do what you're supposed to do to earn your paycheque, but forget overtime or going above and beyond. The company won't (can't) fire you, as you're doing what's expected, but only that.


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## karole (Jun 30, 2010)

"How many people enjoy a wild sex life after 30 years..or even after 3...not many apparently"

Close to a 30 year marriage here, still enjoying a great sex life.........thank the Lord!


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

karole said:


> "How many people enjoy a wild sex life after 30 years..or even after 3...not many apparently"
> 
> Close to a 30 year marriage here, still enjoying a great sex life.........thank the Lord!


"Only" 15 here. And, while not "wild", we ARE on the same page, sexually, along with everything else. Are there some things we each wouldn't mind if the other would try? Sure. But they are NEW developments, after years of marriage, and not something that we require of each other... and we CERTAINLY wouldn't belittle each other by referring to any body parts as "that thing". 

Grear, I strongly suggest, if you are still reading hand have not yet broken your engagement, that you speak with her and see why she feels the way she does, and if she feels that way about other sex acts. And, I would suggest learning where she is on other subjects as well. 

I think, rather than giving good advice, Bugged is trying to tell Grear how she thinks the fiancee is thinking, which is fine. But she isn't giving him advice in how to APPROACH her, to try to understand her perspective. No, instead, Bugged is doing the exact thing she is accusing the rest of us of doing... focusing on one thing.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Bugged said:


> How many people enjoy a wild sex life after 30 years..or even after 3...not many apparently


I don't know the number. But I do know that it's almost none of the people who aren't enjoying a wild sex life at year zero. The smart spouse doesn't get married on the expectation that his sex life will improve, but rather that it will decline, and he hopes by not too much. 

To start out of the gate with an inadequate sex life is to ensure its continuation until death or divorce do you part. Want to avoid that fate? Don't marry someone with whom you are not sexually compatible. 

This thread is not now and has never been about bjs. It's about sexual compatibility.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Bugged said:


> And you, like many here, are *hung up on horoscopes*...>
> I stick to the FACTS. Are they sexless? Nope.
> Has she rejected him?Yes (maybe we might talk about his approach as well...>)
> The first thing he does is to think about cancelling the wedding...even before discussing the subject...
> ...


Not one of us is using horoscopes or whatever contrived idea you may come up with. What each of us is doing is pointing our that past/current behavior IS a good indicator of future actions. No horoscopes needed. He never once said he wants a woman who _never_ rejects him. But it isn't too much to ask for someone to be *honest* about why they are rejecting. It isn't too much to expect that one's future spouse would explain WHY he or she has an aversion to something... anything at all, really. And this is what you, Bugged, are missing, with your tunnel vision. YOU are focused on one thing. And you know, maybe that WAS OP intent when he made the thread. But it does NOT invalidate our advice, at all. 

You're right, Bugged. You don't get angry. At least, you don't show it, anyway. But you DO react. That much is evident. You get a condescending attitude toward those who disagree with you. You say we have a fascist attitude, and even imply that we are stupid (other altercations with you, elsewhere on TAM). Your little emoticons try to "sugarcoat" your posts, but they are only more grating because SOME of us can read through to the actual tone of your post.

Bottom line is you see one issue... the rest of us see the bigger picture. It is about compatibility. And really, is something that should have, AT THE VERY LEAST, been discussed before becoming engaged.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Hicks said:


> When a woman says "I do", it is short for "I do .... not have to blow him anymore".


I'm sure just tounge and cheek :grin2:

I have yet to find a woman who won't give oral. What has surprised me is the few who never wanted to receive it. I can say for me if I met a woman who hated oral she wouldn't be the one for me


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

you said she is "awesome" woman. then you describe her reaction to BJ: "she would never "put that thing anywhere near my face". "That thing" is part of your body, which she finds repulsive. What she said to you was mean and full of contempt, does not sound like awesome, loving woman. 

Add to this that she has no problem receiving oral from you, that makes her even more egoistic.

She does not accept you and your body, as they are. Do you want to spend your life apologizing that you have a d..ck?


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

The biggest problem is that you decided to marry someone you have not had time enough to know well.


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## MotoDude (Sep 15, 2010)

I don't post much but do read the forum. I am glad I found this site, the site have made me realized and open my eyes how my previous marriage was. 3 years together and 19 years married together..and let me tell you, it's 21 years of begging for sex. A dog is more luckier then I am at begging...at least they get their treats. I am left to wait, wait, wait, and wait, and eventually you give up. That is what is like for 21 years, if I had known this from the beginning....sheit I would have left within the 1st year of together..but no I tho this is how marriage was. At one point she touch my part left running to the bathroom and watch her hands. 

After doing my research on the internet and finally talking to other friends and what I missed out, I left and a year later found someone now my wife who give me a bj without me asking. She does not like it with her previous ex, when I come home, she greed me and proceed to give me a bj and smell my him all over...and for the last 3 years I been running home as soon as I get off work. I asked her if she mind doing bj, she said she love doing it and giving it to me. And yes, she let me in the back door.

And yes, I'm facking PISSED off wasting 21 years of begging my arse OFF! God damn it!


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