# cleaning up the wreckage



## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)

I was talking to a friend of mine and he recognized a horrible truth. One that has caused me the worst anxiety and the one thing that is proving to have the most devastating long term effect on me both mentally and emotionally... The horrible truth is, I will never get peace from the injustice of…..

The lies.

That has easily been the most difficult thing for me to come to terms with. The infidelity was an obvious breach of trust, but was never that difficult to understand. The lying, scheming, and gaslighting have left what I fear are life long scars.

In the absence of real life data, the brain creates its own reality. All of the blanks are filled in with ideas, scenario’s and images. Where a DS in the fog fills in the “real life” blanks with the affair partner using pixie dust, rainbows and movie romance dialogue a LS’s mind is forced to fill in the blanks created by the lies and betrayal with mind movies filled with conspiracies, worst case scenario’s and distrust.

I guess all of this makes perfect sense from an evolutionary or psychological standpoint. Every behavior is driven by one of two things, to get pleasure or avoid pain. When your imagination is left to color in the voids, it will do so using one of those two drives. The DS fog draws a picture that motivates the DS to seek the reward of dopamine, PEA and all the happy chemicals your brain rewards you with for mating. The LS smog builds its reality to avoid being vulnerable to additional pain. So in the same way a DS lives in the fantasy fog… I’m finding myself fighting through a booby-trapped reality that has me second guessing everything, paranoid and unable to trust. 

I’m still uneasy, because I have to be. I will never have the satisfaction of the truth. Her truth is anything but, it’s a reality she built to cope with her own betrayal. She will never tell the truth, not to herself and not to me. She can’t. I will never get answers; never get satisfaction or closure from her. 

I’m left to sort through the anger, distrust and wreckage and find my own peace. I’m trying to break down the bomb shelter I built around my soul, and somehow kill all the monsters which have been growing under my bed. All while attempting to co-parent my child with this woman, remain civil and partner with her for the benefit of my son’s emotional well being. 

Infidelity didn’t cause this trauma in my soul, lies did. 

For the newly betrayed, you wont see or feel the damage of the gaslighting till down the road... It's by far the hardest thing you will have overcome, regardless if you R or D... The elephant in the room will always be the lies.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Pit, I have always thought that the lying is actually worse than the chaeting. It's the lying that f-cks things up so bad in one's head. It causes you to question every single moment of the relationship. What was real? What wasn't? What was true? What was false? 

You are right--you'll never know all the details. All you can do is hold onto what you DO know and move towards the future. Don't let what she did punish your new partner(s). It's gonna take you some time but you will get there.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

So true. mine left me not only feeling inadequate and rejected (because no matter how much I wanted it for her she just couldn't be happy) then I find out about the infidelity and the fact she wasn't going to tell me, so once my self-esteem was knocked down by her saying she wanted out of the marriage I suddenly had all the mental movies of her sexual affairs (which seem to me about as bad as they get), topped off with all that confusion that resulted not only from her deliberate lies but the seeing how deep she went into her own fantasy, which just brings it back to the inadequacy and rejection of not being able to keep her happy - as a loyal spouse it seems to all come back onto my shoulders in every possible way.

This wreckage will never go away, but maybe I can send it to the bottom of the sea where I never have to look at it again.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

You are so right. Even though we're together, it's the lies he told that are coming back to haunt us more than the act of cheating as time goes by.

Your post has me thinking - he is SO good at apologizing for cheating, but we've never really addressed the lying aspect. Maybe I should ask him to separate that from the cheating and think about it - I think that would help both of us. The fact that he is normally a scrupulously honest person - to the point of pain regularly - is very hard for me to reconcile.


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## crazyconfused (Nov 23, 2011)

I agree 100%. I would have and was willing to R if she had told me the truth. But after finding out the truth, telling her i know what happened, and then be lied to my face all the same, it was too much....


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## 5Creed (May 29, 2011)

Yes; this really hits home for me. The lies are the worst part and the fact that they seemed to come so easily to him when I look back is especially hurtful. If someone had told me that my husband of 22 years would lie to my face so many times over after I confronted him with his affair, I would never have believed it! But it happened and is difficult to accept at times.


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## Arnold (Oct 25, 2011)

crazyconfused said:


> I agree 100%. I would have and was willing to R if she had told me the truth. But after finding out the truth, telling her i know what happened, and then be lied to my face all the same, it was too much....


Same here. I found out enough to be certain that she lied. Amazingly, even when I point out how ludicorus her story is, in the face of documentary evidence, she still lies to this day.
It's insulting. I can see she believes I am an idiot( nobody touch that,please).


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## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)

That's where the line was drawn for me as well.... When I "let go" of the drive to fix or save my marriage was when I laid down the denial and told myself the truth... I could get around the cheating, I could never get around the lies. I may have been able to keep fighting for it... But somewhere down the road, the damage would have taken it's toll on me and the marriage would have ended. It was very hard for me to tell myself that truth.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## desert-rose (Aug 16, 2011)

Definitely in agreement with you there. Lying, gas-lighting, and character assassination, denials, half-truths, the irresponsible immaturity of blame-shifting....these evasions of the truth in an effort to avoid confronting the reality of the situation or in an effort to avoid accountability or whatever else they're used for are so painful. It's so much worse than just the simple act of cheating. It's like salt in a wound. It's almost like they not only want to have their cake and eat it too but also want to be both victor and victim in the whole situation just to be selfish. This is the part I'm really struggling with now, myself. Glad to read your post today because it resonates with me, though I am sorry that you are having to feel this way.


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## Arnold (Oct 25, 2011)

Not only are they painful, desert, they really piss one off.

How's this one for you:
Wife comes home at 3 in the morning, so drunk that she is stupid enough to wake me and proceed to tell me all about the fantastic physique of the young bike racing professional she spent the evening with.
Next day, I tell her this this was way over the top. Her explanation for treating me to this description:"Oh, I thought that you would be mad at me for coming in late. So, since you are an ex athlete, i thought you would be intrigued by the description of his fitness level, thus distracting you from the fact that i was out until 3 again."
Now, this is from a magna cum laude law school grad. She fully expected that I was so much dumber than her that I would buy this.


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## Arnold (Oct 25, 2011)

Really tough to have any respect for these a-holes after the crap that they spew. The mind boggling thing is that they are often so dumb that they are not even embarrassed for having said this stuff.
I think that would have been about the toughest thing for me to get past, the absolute dumbness. It would be embarrassing going though life with someone so incredibly stupid. Who would know what type of idiotic thing she might say to my friends or business associates.


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## oaksthorne (Mar 4, 2011)

5Creed said:


> Yes; this really hits home for me. The lies are the worst part and the fact that they seemed to come so easily to him when I look back is especially hurtful. If someone had told me that my husband of 22 years would lie to my face so many times over after I confronted him with his affair, I would never have believed it! But it happened and is difficult to accept at times.


All the time my H's A was going on, he continued to tell me how much he loved me. He would talk to her on the phone as he drove home from work, or from "working out", then come into our house and kiss me and lie to me about the events of his day. They would work together all day and then go eat and to the gym in the evening to "work out". All the time the working out was going on he was telling me that he was working out with " the guys at work". So many lies; months worth of them. Now he says he loves me and will spend the rest of his life making this up to me. I don't even know how a person could make this kind of thing up to another person. He lied so much that I don't believe him when he says he loves me( he told her that too). I don't think that he even knows what love is.


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## Sparkles422 (Jun 3, 2011)

The gaslighting and lies were painful because the proof was daily in front of my face, he hid nothing. And when confronted lied. I thought I was going insane and I was.

The most painful part for me was the trust. I had trusted this person and I don't trust easily. That is what blew me away. The lies and deceit were to cover his backup plan but he didn't understand after what he had done his backup plan never existed except in all the fantasies he had created.

It was the demolished trust that destroyed me temporarily.

He never admitted anything, worked on closure myself and I haven't had contact since August 16th. He no longer exists in my new world.

I pray all of your pain begins to lessen. It did for me and the miracle is I look forward to my new days everyday.


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## OOE (Mar 17, 2011)

Yes. The real hurt from the betrayal comes from the (continual) lies. That's why limbo is so hard - there's zero trust, yet this person is still in your life.

Look at the stories of the true R's. The lies end and the marriage can start healing.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

My W had an affair years ago. On her own she realized that her behavior was a dead end. She ended it and completely came clean immediately. I had no idea it was even going on! I was the typical clueless husband I guess. It hurt (sometimes still does) and the hardest part was knowing she could carry this on behind my back. It took a lot of work to rebuild but I firmly believe that if she had not been completely honest about everything we would not still be married right now.


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## AppleDucklings (Mar 27, 2011)

15 years worth of lies and for what? So he could have his cake. He didn't want me, but yet keeping me around meant he didn't have to pay child support. Pretty much anything that came out of his mouth was a lie.


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## 52flower (Mar 4, 2011)

I flip flop from “Oh well, he has a huge dysfunctional problem that only he can fix but I’m out of it” to shuddering from the realization that someone I loved and cared for sincerely everyday, lied so blatantly to my face. I feel disrespected, cast aside, and very naive & foolish. I realize it was my fault for hoping he would change. And as you said, as much as I have regained myself, it still makes me wince. I catch myself hesitant of taking chances and trusting as I never thought a person would or could lie to the face of someone they "loved". 18 years of repeatedly telling me he would never betray me and now I realize his lying occurred throughout. How foolish I was. At the expense of others, I rationalize that he does not know how to love. Is it odd that I feel sorry for him?

Your topic and words say so much of how I feel & what I am working through. Does the fear of betrayal ever go away?


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

52flower said:


> I flip flop from “Oh well, he has a huge dysfunctional problem that only he can fix but I’m out of it” to shuddering from the realization that someone I loved and cared for sincerely everyday, lied so blatantly to my face. I feel disrespected, cast aside, and very naive & foolish. I realize it was my fault for hoping he would change. And as you said, as much as I have regained myself, it still makes me wince. I catch myself hesitant of taking chances and trusting as I never thought a person would or could lie to the face of someone they "loved". 18 years of repeatedly telling me he would never betray me and now I realize his lying occurred throughout. How foolish I was. At the expense of others, I rationalize that he does not know how to love. Is it odd that I feel sorry for him?
> 
> Your topic and words say so much of how I feel & what I am working through. Does the fear of betrayal ever go away?


I wish I could say that it does. It's been 20 years since my wife had an affair and I still catch myself questioning things if she's late or I can't reach her on her cell. And she's done everything right since then. I know our marriage is stronger than it's ever been but the blind trust never fully returns.


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## 52flower (Mar 4, 2011)

I think the only chance for rebuilding would be for the wayward to be flawlessly & completely honest and humbly accepting of the emotions their betrayed partner will always have. I give you a lot of credit, Beowolf, for giving her the chance to prove she can be this person for you.

In my case, my exH says he has changed & he wants to come back. But after 2 affairs and lies that he only admits to when he’s against the wall, it’s very difficult to dissipate the deep scars embedded in my heart. What concerns me is that some men have been interested but I find that it’s difficult to open up & put my guard down. When JellyBeans says she isn’t interested in dating, I understand. I wonder if and how the protective armor softens after someone treated you with such disrespect. It’s been almost a year since our divorce became final. I don't know if recovery from the aftermath of horrific lying takes this long or if it can permanently scar.


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## Hoosier (May 17, 2011)

Oh Pit! you are so spot on! Although my D is final, and I have had no contact, I sporatically run into people that tell me that they saw my XW, usually with the POSOM, and she told them that I kicked her out and then immediatly filed for divorce. She forgets to mention she had an A, she fails to mention that I asked her to consider R three different times, she forgets to mention that she moved out and immediately in with the OM. She tells everyone he is just a friend. I am over the A, but these lies, especially last few days have just overwhelmed me. I wrote a letter of Facts and mailed to each of her 5 brothers and her sister. I dont think it will change the way they feel (all but sister have had NC with me since this happened in July) but I wanted them to have the facts so in the future if they continually treat me unfairly I can say F##k you with a clear conscious. 
So glad for your post, makes me feel like I am not the Lone Ranger. Sorry for your problems.


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## Blindasabat (Nov 29, 2011)

I'm convinced to be a cheater you must become a pathological liar as well. She has lied so much I can't tell anymore. I have texts where she said she was going to a bachelorette party "just women talk" and then invited a bunch of male friends out to a restaurant/club. Some were fb friends! Thanks zuckerberg! Cheating is lying I think getting away with something is part of the drug. 
Part of the oxytocin/dopamine effect. Now she keeps testing me reaching out like she fears the jig is up but won't come clean.
we need to work on the marriage -as if there were no cheating just problems ha! Last night she comes home I made her coffee and went to bed she thought I would stay up awhile. she says why are you so distant? What? Huh? What the hell do you expect? was what I was thinking I said I'm tired just want to sleep. Sleep is the only break from reality in this. Over the years I have caught her lying I said I am the person you should never lie to no matter what it is or how you think I will react. --- well that didn't work out. ---
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## allthegoodnamesaregone (Nov 18, 2011)

After spending a lot of time soul searching after my wife left almost six months ago, questioning every aspect of my marriage of 24 years, even the paternity of my children etc. and spending 2-3 hours a day reading forums like this I've come to a conclusion. It's one that has set me free, I hope it helps everyone here as well. 

In a case where the LBS is not guilty of any of the standard "Divorce-able Offenses" and did their fair share of what's involved in a relationship I don't know what other conclusion you can come to. The conclusion is our MLC/WAS's are mentally ill, and as such there is no way we are ever going to get the closure we need. 

My closure on my own situation is it's like my wife is in a mental institution of her own making with little hope of recovery. Even though I loved my wife more than my own life that person is gone forever, want's nothing more to do with me, does not want my help. I have to move on, and I suggest anyone is similar situation consider it as well.


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## Shooboomafoo (Mar 30, 2011)

Its not what I like to do as my nature. To be left with the knowledge that I will never get to know truly "why" this all went down like it did. To realize the compounded falsities that were laid out there to cover herself and her actions in secret.
Its a completely new thing for me, to have to just let go of that desire to know why, and subsequent "fix it" attempts that Ive seemed to make a pattern of in my life in dealing with issues.

Getting to that " I dont have to care " attitude, is liberating, but feels like you just took an ass-whooping and didnt stand up for yourself, or something happened becuase I didnt prepare for it... 
Again, finding myself focusing on my part of it, when I should not.


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## allthegoodnamesaregone (Nov 18, 2011)

Shooboomafoo said:


> Its not what I like to do as my nature. To be left with the knowledge that I will never get to know truly "why" this all went down like it did. To realize the compounded falsities that were laid out there to cover herself and her actions in secret.
> Its a completely new thing for me, to have to just let go of that desire to know why, and subsequent "fix it" attempts that Ive seemed to make a pattern of in my life in dealing with issues.
> 
> Getting to that " I dont have to care " attitude, is liberating, but feels like you just took an ass-whooping and didnt stand up for yourself, or something happened becuase I didnt prepare for it...
> Again, finding myself focusing on my part of it, when I should not.


You can't prepare for something like this, there are no rules as far as the MLC/WAS is concerned. They change the story to justify their actions as soon as you debunk it. Whatever sets them off is something even they probably don't know, so they throw crap at the wall hoping we are stupid enough to take most of the blame. From what I see on these forums most of the LBS's have been pretty good people, often their biggest crime is trusting their spouse. 

The first reaction we do is blame ourselves for some crap, like fighting about wallpaper choices in 1997. We then go on a 180 to make ourselves even greater paragons of virtues and superior physical specimens, only to find the OM/OW that replaced us have flaws that would have ended our own marriages in year one if we had originally displayed them. 

As someone whose gone through this delusional period of self blame, even had brief moments of contemplating suicide over it, I now realize the truth. Nothing I could have done would have changed anything except for the timing of the speech. I've come out the other side and realized trying to figure why a mentally ill person does something is a losing game.


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## Arnold (Oct 25, 2011)

allthegoodnamesaregone said:


> After spending a lot of time soul searching after my wife left almost six months ago, questioning every aspect of my marriage of 24 years, even the paternity of my children etc. and spending 2-3 hours a day reading forums like this I've come to a conclusion. It's one that has set me free, I hope it helps everyone here as well.
> 
> In a case where the LBS is not guilty of any of the standard "Divorce-able Offenses" and did their fair share of what's involved in a relationship I don't know what other conclusion you can come to. The conclusion is our MLC/WAS's are mentally ill, and as such there is no way we are ever going to get the closure we need.
> 
> My closure on my own situation is it's like my wife is in a mental institution of her own making with little hope of recovery. Even though I loved my wife more than my own life that person is gone forever, want's nothing more to do with me, does not want my help. I have to move on, and I suggest anyone is similar situation consider it as well.


Very good advice. When one finally realizes that the cheater is not going to have some type of epiphany and is never going to admit or accept responsibility, one can just move on.
I know it took me a long time to accept that my XWs are just not wired like me and not like a person with a normal moral compass. Once I realized this, i lost any expectation of either of them ever apologizing or telling the truth.


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## Arnold (Oct 25, 2011)

allthegoodnamesaregone said:


> You can't prepare for something like this, there are no rules as far as the MLC/WAS is concerned. They change the story to justify their actions as soon as you debunk it. Whatever sets them off is something even they probably don't know, so they throw crap at the wall hoping we are stupid enough to take most of the blame. From what I see on these forums most of the LBS's have been pretty good people, often their biggest crime is trusting their spouse.
> 
> The first reaction we do is blame ourselves for some crap, like fighting about wallpaper choices in 1997. We then go on a 180 to make ourselves even greater paragons of virtues and superior physical specimens, only to find the OM/OW that replaced us have flaws that would have ended our own marriages in year one if we had originally displayed them.
> 
> As someone whose gone through this delusional period of self blame, even had brief moments of contemplating suicide over it, I now realize the truth. Nothing I could have done would have changed anything except for the timing of the speech. I've come out the other side and realized trying to figure why a mentally ill person does something is a losing game.


Again, a very solid analysis. Many of these cheating types are personality disordered. If you try to figure them out, you go nuts.
And, through years of practice, they are very adept at defelcting questions and avoiding things. In fact, you will , often, find yourself defending yourself after making any inquiry into some of their behaviors.
The most common defelction we see form the female cheater is the claim of emotional neglect or, sometimes, contolling abusiveness on the part of the betrayed man.
I spoke to my adult sonlast night and he informed me that his mom had recently seen the movie"Descendants" starring george Clooney as a man who discovers his wife's infidelity while the wife is in a coma.
He and I had seen it some weeks earlier. He told me his mom was defending the cheating woman and alluding to clooney's unfitness as a husband, although there was no evidence of that.
Cheater lie. They justify. They twist reality to avoid cognitive dissonance. It has been and always wil be that way. 
we get a very skewed view of the typical cheater because on boards like this, a decent % of them are remorseful(even among them we see justifying).
But,out there in the real world, only a very small minority of chaters feel remorse and an even smaller % tell the truth.


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## Hoosier (May 17, 2011)

> We then go on a 180 to make ourselves even greater paragons of virtues and superior physical specimens, only to find the OM/OW that replaced us have flaws that would have ended our own marriages in year one if we had originally displayed them.


So true! this drives me nuts, the POSOM has already (and it is only 5 months) shown 5 things that I would have been thrown out of the house if I had done them. But it is ok as it is him doing it not me. I am going with the mentally ill diagnosis and going to try real hard to get that thru my head. I seriously think and have thought it was true. Best thing that happened to me is 25 year old daughter said, "mom has never been happy, you tried to make her happy, she will never be happy. Dad, you can do better."


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## CH (May 18, 2010)

I would say most of the time don't even bother trying to clean it up, just torch it and walk away. There are only rare instances that R can work.

The best thing a BS spouse can do it leave and work on making themselves better. If and when the WS comes crawling back then the BS has had time to think and decide what they want. And most of the time the BS won't doesn't need the WS anymore.


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## allthegoodnamesaregone (Nov 18, 2011)

My kids (14 & 19) pretty much back up my diagnosis and say "Mom's not Mom anymore". Her actions have made them decide not to spend anytime over Christmas with her, which will be kicked back at me as "Poisoning her children against her". It should be interesting because the kids themselves talked about this to the in laws the other night on their own. 

My daughter has been actively suggesting I find someone else, saying "Mom had no reason to treat you as she has, so she's had to make up sh%t as an excuse" My son, 14 says "She's having a mid life crisis Dad". So I pretty much rest my case, it's a form of mental illness.


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## I_Will_Survive (Oct 28, 2011)

allthegoodnamesaregone said:


> My closure on my own situation is it's like my wife is in a mental institution of her own making with little hope of recovery.


Thank you. That's very good advice. I will try to keep it in mind.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

People are rarely scum because they don't have better options. People are scum because they like it. Cheaters cheat, liars lie. Evil corrupts. That is their nature. 

"Why did you cheat on me?"

Because I'm a s^it, that's why. 

"Why couldn't you take that energy and make a productive humane use of it"?

I don't roll that way. Any questions?


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## Hoosier (May 17, 2011)

Ok, quick vote please. I have taken about 4 of these postings added my own at the end. Started off with "J, here are some postings from Coping with Infidelity, dont think you have the guts to read them, but sending them anyway." Have the letter in an envelope address to xw at POSOM house. Do I send or throw away?


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## Hoosier (May 17, 2011)

If I send it, it wont shame her will it?


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## allthegoodnamesaregone (Nov 18, 2011)

Not likely, any shame or quilt if it comes at all will happen much later if and when their life falls apart. If their life does not collapse it's unlikely to even enter their mind at all, you're simply history....


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## Bartimaus (Oct 15, 2011)

I won't clean up the wreckage,I will poor gas on those memories and burn them. It is now her that has to live with her thousands of lies and not me. I put up with it for most of my life. Now it's on her conscience and is up to her to repent to God or be doomed. She wouldn't admit to anything and never showed the least bit of remorse. But that is in her blood. Her entire family were/are cheaters and love to make and tell a lie.
My ex is a pretty,petite and innocent looking woman and will stand and tell me that she hasn't even been flirted with! That's how bad of a lying spouse I had.
When I walked out of that court house my hurtful memories of her started dieing then. I am moving on,consider that I am better than her because I was not a flirt or cheat as she was and I deserve better. Her lies tormented me long enough, I won't allow them to any longer. I don't need her admission,confession, or remorse to gain closure. I only needed to divorce her to have closure.


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## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)

Bartimaus said:


> I won't clean up the wreckage,I will poor gas on those memories and burn them. It is now her that has to live with her thousands of lies and not me. I put up with it for most of my life. Now it's on her conscience and is up to her to repent to God or be doomed. She wouldn't admit to anything and never showed the least bit of remorse. But that is in her blood. Her entire family were/are cheaters and love to make and tell a lie.
> My ex is a pretty,petite and innocent looking woman and will stand and tell me that she hasn't even been flirted with! That's how bad of a lying spouse I had.
> When I walked out of that court house my hurtful memories of her started dieing then. I am moving on,consider that I am better than her because I was not a flirt or cheat as she was and I deserve better. Her lies tormented me long enough, I won't allow them to any longer. I don't need her admission,confession, or remorse to gain closure. I only needed to divorce her to have closure.


Sounds good in concept.

But, it's not that easy brother. 

Read your post again. Your still angry, and hurt. Its not as easy as deciding your just going to forget it. 

I wish it were. I'm really good at forgetting things.

Strong willed, Stubborn and determined to get over it hasn't helped me forget it and it hasn't healed a damn thing for me. I'm only realizing that years after the fact.

What does help me is coming here or talking to friends and just laying it out... The naked truth... No pride, No denial, no more bullsh*t.... I hurt, Im human, Im damaged and I need to keep cleaning up this wreckage.


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## allthegoodnamesaregone (Nov 18, 2011)

Well put Pit, we can only burn a little bit of garbage at a time. In my case up until this last spring my wife and I were bulletproof, so I'm looking at it as only 1 year out of 24 that was as bad as she claims. it's much easier for me to deal with that way and I think it make sense to see it that way.


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