# The Refuser's (not interested in physical affection) Thoughts



## Handy (Jul 23, 2017)

Please explain why some spouses say they love you but find so many ways to avoid or withhold sex or most things that are physical, such as touch and cuddling? Their lack of understanding and affection is probably worse than the lack of sex

Is there any real info out there anywhere from with holders as to why they think there behavior is beneficial or necessary? Some deniers try to sidetrack any real questions or resort to saying the HD person is a sex fiend.

In an ideal world, if I loved my spouse and had a libido / affection problem or a medical issue that was keeping me from desiring them in some sort of physical way, I would try to show empathy towards my spouse's needs. 

I am guessing the biggest problems are some or several incompatibilities and a long build up of small resentments. I have read so many stories where having kids messes up the spousal relationship. It seems like its Mother Nature's form of birth control.

Has anyone broken thru and at least heard the real story from a denier or someone like a psychologist . sex therapist type analysis or diagnosis? I know that is a spouse is repulsed by physical relationships but does it anyway, after a time he or she grows to resent their partner, or at least the physical part of the relationship.

Does the refuser know and understand how their inaction's are impacting their partner and the marital relationship? Just because one person doesn't want anything physical does not mean their partner should or could be happy. Many partners still have wants and desires so, what does the wanting partner do? The forsaking others works for the LD person but not for the HD person. 

Thoughts and comments from refusers are my primary interest.


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## FrazzledSadHusband (Jul 3, 2014)

Start reading here - https://forgivenwife.com/sexless-marriage-loveless-marriage/


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## TJW (Mar 20, 2012)

I didn't begin my marriage as a "refuser". However, over time, I adopted that positional trait.



Handy said:


> Is there any real info out there anywhere from with holders as to why they think there behavior is beneficial or necessary?


In my case, my choice was not in any way "beneficial", however, "necessary" to avoid psychological injury to myself. No matter how dedicated the lifeguard, he recognizes that his buddy-swim is becoming increasingly dangerous to continue.



Handy said:


> I am guessing the biggest problems are some or several incompatibilities and a long build up of small resentments.


Yes, I would agree that in my case, that's exactly what happened. It was well-described by the "sequoia and the woodsman" analogy. The sequoia trunk is massive. However, it cannot forever withstand a scenario in which every new day brings another hundred ax blows. For many months the giant tree continues to stand proudly and the osmotic process which keeps it alive continues through the phloem and xylem tissues which have only partially been severed.

Until, one catastrophic ax blow..... at which the mighty redwood suddenly loses sufficient strength at the base and cannot, any longer, remain inertially upright. It crashes to the ground, with its life processes completely interrupted, never to begin again.




Handy said:


> Does the refuser know and understand how their inaction's are impacting their partner and the marital relationship?


Yes. And, not unlike any self-defense shooter, he begins by trying to avoid, and allowing as much "cost" as he possibly can . But the escalation of his partner's aggression starts to leave him no other choice. His self-preservation instinct "takes over" to an increasing degree as time goes on, as the "price" becomes gradually too high.

In my case, my W did not know nor understand how HER actions were impacting her husband and her marriage. Because her "whole world" existed in a cylindrical volume described by the circumference of her own body....her self-importance was, as it is to every person, a limiting factor in the success of relationships.

I tried to tell her what was happening. It simply fell upon deaf ears.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

For an interesting perspective, read at asexual.org

There are a subset of people who simply do not feel sexual attraction at all. Whether or not you believe what they are saying, it is a very interesting perspective on the issue


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## Handy (Jul 23, 2017)

Frazzled, I read some of the links. Thank you.

TJW, I understand the concept of "the price is too high."

Are some people (refusers) just so entitled to wanting most things their way they don't consider the other partner's interest as valid? Do they see things only as what works for them.

I know 2 relationships where the H works 60 hrs a week and one guy works out of town all week. 

In one case the H lives 150 miles away from home during the week and still has to drives to his job in the mountains 2 hrs each way every day. He leaves for work around 5AM works almost alone all day, drives to his temporary residence and gets there around 7PM, cooks supper, then goes to bed.

The mountain community where he works does not allow anyone not in the multi-million dollar club to live there. He comes home on Friday evening (150 miles each way) and leaves for work at 3AM on Monday morning. The wife claims he is lazy, wants to watch sports on TV and do a little shopping. I see him cooking on the weekend and working on her hobbies. He does things with her kids from a previous M. My opinion is some people (W) are never satisfied and want more than a person can deliver. There are very few construction jobs where he lives, so the out of town is the norm. If he did find a job in town it would only be temporary (summer) because once the ground freezes most heavy equipment operators get laid off until the ground thaws in the spring. The mountain community folks have lots of money so they don't care about the extra winter cost add to the construction prices.


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## Handy (Jul 23, 2017)

uhtred, I understand the asexual people. What is difficult is what might be called switch from being sexual before some major event to be not interested in intimacy after an event or a series of events.

Just because the H or wisn't interested doesn't make the other partner "not interested." I used to buy the forever for better or worse but that doesn't really work for people in general. I see a lot of resentment when people subscribe to the forever no matter what situations.

Don't people get it when something important to one partner is not there? Is self preservation or self interest the main goal? 

If I under paid an employee by a large amount, I wouldn't expect them to stay.


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## Tatsuhiko (Jun 21, 2016)

That's my biggest issue as well--the lack of empathy. Okay, so you don't like sex, or maybe you're not attracted to me. I get that--that's fair. But here I've told you that this thing is important to me. You know that this is important to most spouses and to the overall health of the relationship, just from things you've read and seen all your life. You know that this is true worldwide too, across all cultures. Yet when I approach you with this very normal, to-be-expected need of mine, you turn me down? You find a way to avoid it? Even when you see the tears in my eyes? When you see the damage it's causing? And I'm supposed to believe you "love" me? 

The problem is that I think people like this often lack the introspection or maturity to answer the question honestly. Or maybe the same wall they built to keep you at bay is the barrier that prevents them from opening up or communicating honestly.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Here is a thread that has some info on this topic.


http://talkaboutmarriage.com/ladies-lounge/350970-sex-starved-wife.html


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Most people who get to the point of not wanting sex with their spouse are not asexual. They just don't want sex with their spouse. It's usually due to relationship problems. 

Sometimes the problem is with the person withholding sex. But sometime the problem is actually with the other spouse.


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## TJW (Mar 20, 2012)

Handy said:


> Are some people (refusers) just so entitled to wanting most things their way they don't consider the other partner's interest as valid? Do they see things only as what works for them.


Yes, some people are indeed so "entitled". It can be the "refuser", like in the case of someone who "gives" sex in order to get nesting with security and kids. As soon as the nest is complete, the refusing begins.

Or, it can be the "demander" - who, through months and years of objectification, leaves "refusing" a far-more palatable life choice than giving, because the idea of sex with the "refuser" is just simply too repulsive to entertain.


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## TJW (Mar 20, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> Most people who get to the point of not wanting sex with their spouse are not asexual. They just don't want sex with their spouse. It's usually due to relationship problems.


Exactly. If some reasonable, and compassionate, person offered them sex (in which they would be considered a human with feelings instead of a commodity), they would be quite ready and willing.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

sometimes women withhold sex because they have screwy things going on in their head. in those cases, the real reason usually bears little resemblence to what their stated reason is. 

for instance, my wife used to claim that she doesn't like sex and that i didn't care about her. it didn't really matter what i did or did not do, everything got twisted in her head as a validation of that idea. 

the truth was that she LOVES sex and that i DO care about her. she just had to get passed some false narratives she had been taught growing up. 

its the same kind of thing that happens when men show little respect for themselves, and think that the way to get their wives to respect and desire them is to be a doormat. they grow up believing the false narrative. you know, the wives are always right, they should apologize for **** they didn't even do, happy wife happy life, etc.


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## Ms. Hawaii (Mar 28, 2018)

EleGirl said:


> Most people who get to the point of not wanting sex with their spouse are not asexual. They just don't want sex with their spouse. It's usually due to relationship problems.
> 
> 
> 
> .




I agree. I love sex, yet I barely had sex with my ex towards the end of our relationship. We had so many problems that he refused to fix so yeah that’s a libido killer. 



EleGirl said:


> Most
> 
> 
> 
> But sometime the problem is actually with the other spouse.




True! Funny thing is he accused me of pretending to be HD to be with him. He couldn’t comprehend that it’s hard for some people to have sex when they’re unhappy.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

My ex-husband considered me a refuser. We "never" had sex and I was "frigid". Even though we were having enthusiastic and engaged sex 2-5 times per week, down somewhat from higher rates earlier in our 15 year marriage. But, it wasn't as much sex as he wanted, so even though that's not sexless by any stretch, in his mind, we were in a sexless marriage. He truly believed, and told both of our MC's, that I just didn't like sex, wasn't a sexual person, and was too stubborn and selfish to just do it to make him happy. He was, up to the point I began dating again after our divorce, my only sexual partner, so I had no reason to suspect that sex with anyone else could be any different than it was with him. I assumed his observations that I was cold and sexless were likely true. I honestly couldn't imagine really _wanting_ sex, beyond a desire to make my partner happy, with anyone. 

Turns out that he, and I, were very wrong. I actually do enjoy sex a great deal and am a pretty sexual person. I just don't have a multiple-times-per-day raw drive like my ex-husband does. And, I also don't have much of a drive if the rest of the relationship is bad. And I've learned since our divorce that our relationship was _incredibly_ dysfunctional in many ways. I've also learned that sex can be wonderful in a relationship that's wonderful. 

It turns out that there's actually nothing wrong with me. I'm not defective. It's just that an angry alcoholic narcissist who mocks and belittles me when he's not ignoring me completely, just doesn't get my motor running. My SO doesn't do any of that, and my motor runs just fine for him. He also has a drive that's more similar to my own, so sex every other day or so works just fine for him. The combination of an actual loving, caring, respectful, relationship and more compatible sex drives is really a magical thing.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

Marriage comes with all sorts of attachments and expectations for many people. One of those ideas is that two become one. Reality says that we each act in our own best interests (or what we consider them to be). So if you have bought into the two become one mindset, you may not want sex and by extension neither should your partner. If they do, that is something they need to deal with. Or vice versa. I think for many the "empathy" applies to the relationship, not the other person in it.


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

Ms. Hawaii said:


> I agree. I love sex, yet I barely had sex with my ex towards the end of our relationship. We had so many problems that he refused to fix so yeah that’s a libido killer.


Hmm.

On topic, being a ****head is not conducive to getting laid.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

If the problem is _you_, not them, then realizing, understanding, and changing _may_ sometimes fix the problem. However, sometimes it's too late, or too little, to fix. If it's _them_, there is no fix unless they come to a realization and want to change. That's rare, from what I've seen and experienced. And it seems rare that the resentful spouse withholding affection and sex says much about it, or does much to change it. This is a fundamental dishonesty, except where they've diligently tried and been ignored.

So, understanding the reasons is a great thing, if the issue is yours, and you can change. However, there is rarely a solution for this, no matter who or what the cause. IMO, it's better to cut your losses and move on ASAP, if affection and sex are important to you. Learn from it, and apply that knowledge in your next relationship.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

While I guess I understand (@Handy) OP's original post, I don't think I really understand. 

And I am not being a smart a$$ either. As horrible as our marriage was, and it sucked, my Ex W and I never stopped having sex. At least, not until the last few years of the marriage. That only happened because she was so wasted that I hated her guts and I was just waiting for her to get sober enough so I could divorce her, which was stupid I know.

Maybe that is what people are talking about? 

Other than that, as horrible as the marriage was, we had sex. 

Now a days, before I got into my most recent R, if a girl was not affectionate and did not like sex as much as I do, she would get dumped. I never dumped a girl for that reason, but I would have. 

But I never understood why anyone would stay in a marriage that did not include a healthy sex life.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Handy said:


> Please explain why some spouses say they love you but find so many ways to avoid or withhold sex or most things that are physical, such as touch and cuddling? Their lack of understanding and affection is probably worse than the lack of sex.


I find the dishonesty and selfishness to be worse than the lack of sex. I think most refusers lie outright or by omission their reasons for not sexually desiring their partners. They know that it can cost them the relationship. Meanwhile the partner being refused is left confused and guessing at solutions, sometimes for years. It is selfish. 

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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Lila said:


> Handy said:
> 
> 
> > Please explain why some spouses say they love you but find so many ways to avoid or withhold sex or most things that are physical, such as touch and cuddling? Their lack of understanding and affection is probably worse than the lack of sex.
> ...


I think this is right on. Partner isn't sexually attracted, but wants to keep the benefits of marriage, so just makes excuses to not have sex. And an excuse is usually a lie all dressed up...


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

Lila said:


> I find the dishonesty and selfishness to be worse than the lack of sex. I think most refusers lie outright or by omission their reasons for not sexually desiring their partners. They know that it can cost them the relationship. Meanwhile the partner being refused is left confused and guessing at solutions, sometimes for years. It is selfish.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


That was definitely the case in my marriage. She had every excuse under the sun not to have sex, but as soon as she no longer needed to be in a relationship off she went, staging everything to make it look like my fault.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Ynot said:


> That was definitely the case in my marriage. She had every excuse under the sun not to have sex, but as soon as she no longer needed to be in a relationship off she went, staging everything to make it look like my fault.


I'm sorry this happened to you @Ynot. 

I don't blame my husband for the failure of our marriage but i do blame him for being a cake eater.

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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

Lila said:


> I'm sorry this happened to you @Ynot.
> 
> I don't blame my husband for the failure of our marriage but i do blame him for being a cake eater.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


Thanks. There have been times I have thought that even hearing "I just want some strange" would have been better than the guilt trip she laid on me. I spent months feeling so guilty and down on myself for causing my divorce. It has only been in hindsight that I have come to realize the level of narcissism that I was dealing with. I do realize I shared some of the blame. In many ways I was very much beaten down and unhappy while I was married. I allowed that to happen, but it wasn't as though it happened spontaneously. There was definitely some outside stimulus to provoke that response. I seriously thought I was just stepping up, trying to become a better man, a better provider, a better husband. It turns out, that it probably wouldn't have mattered regardless. She only wanted what she wanted and it was totally up to me to either get on board or suffer the wrath. Over time whatever sense of partnership and team work that had been there slowly became her beating me (not physically, but mentally) to get whatever she wanted. A good example was vacations, she loved to plan them, but never could be bothered to save for them - that was my job, and I had no say over where or when we went. So every year it was a trip to the beach during the busiest time of my business year.


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## Handy (Jul 23, 2017)

* As'laDain
a)for instance, my wife used to claim that she doesn't like sex and that i didn't care about her. it didn't really matter what i did or did not do, everything got twisted in her head as a validation of that idea. 

b)the truth was that she LOVES sex and that i DO care about her. she just had to get passed some false narratives she had been taught growing up.

c)its the same kind of thing that happens when men show little respect for themselves, and think that the way to get their wives to respect and desire them is to be a doormat. they grow up believing the false narrative. you know, 

d)the wives are always right, they should apologize for **** they didn't even do, 

e)happy wife happy life, etc. *


A) I heard the "don't care about her and her not liking sex." I think people hear this from other friends and believe it is true. It validates their feelings so they can be right.

B) I know some people hold tightly to the narratives.

C) I was the one to do more and more, thinking i could nice my way to a more rewarding emotional and physical life with my W. Maybe if I had a dentist's income and worked part time it might have worked. On a repairman's salary and the time it takes to keep customers. the money was less and the time was more. My opinion is there ate too many romance programs on TV for a W that doesn't work, doesn't have kids at home, doesn't do much except watch TV all day. Better Homes and Gardens TV programs remodel a house in 40 minuets. Lifetime TV romances go from problems to solutions in 40 minuets and the guy has time and money to convince the woman he is the unicorn.

D) I have to apologies for the things I didn't do her way or on her time table.

E) I have had a few women say that works. My experience is some people have a very narrow range of happiness, IE they are picky and anything out of their norm won't do.

Anyway, I am not prince charming. I don't have a white horse or any glass slippers but I can do a good foot rub. 

Life is difficult when dealing with a spouse that thinks the HD partner only thinks with their penis/vagina. It is difficult to break through that when the LD spouse thinks that is all the HD spouse views them (the LD spouse) good for.

To all, I totally understand a spouse getting to the point of being totally turned off by a selfish lover. My main question was "Doesn't the refuser see some higher drive partner trying the best they can but for the LD it still isn't worth being a little accepting of the HD partner. 

It is like playing dart and the only thing that counts are bulls-eyes. BTW, i don't play darts so I don't know the common rules.


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## Handy (Jul 23, 2017)

* Ynot
She only wanted what she wanted and it was totally up to me to either get on board or suffer the wrath. Over time whatever sense of partnership and team work that had been there slowly became her beating me (not physically, but mentally) to get whatever she wanted. A good example was vacations, she loved to plan them, but never could be bothered to save for them - that was my job.*

I felt beaten down but most of that was on me for thinking if I did more or tried harder she would like me more. According to some female posters here on TAN, it just showed that I was weak and she couldn't trust me to protect her.

My W wanted to fly to vacation spots, rent a car and the rest was reasonable. I worked part-time jobs to save for vacation expenses which were half of her flying aspirations for a family of 4.

I learned that I had to be responsible for the costs of a vacation so I did it the way I could afford. I wasn't about to work more hours because with my main job, church activities (her thing but I did projects for the church) and my part time jobs, there were no more hours in the day to earn air fare money. Back in that time (long before the internet) there weren't very many bargain flights or deals.


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## Handy (Jul 23, 2017)

* Blues
As horrible as our marriage was, and it sucked, my Ex W and I never stopped having sex. At least, not until the last few years of the marriage. That only happened because she was so wasted that I hated her guts and I was just waiting for her to get sober enough so I could divorce her, *

See, that is what I was thinking. You still had a sexual relationship even though the relationship was going down hill. I see that is sort of giving and also getting something in return.

So many dead bedroom - emotionally disconnected relationships where one person is giving what the partner wants but not much is given back or what is given back isn't what the HD partner wants or needs. 

I know some people might see the giving to get or giving from both sides what the other person wants or needs is similar to the NMMNG "covert contract."

I also have been told that interdependent people in an exclusive relationship are co-dependent and it was suggested that co-dependent behaviors were dysfunctional.

I mostly have to come to the conclusion some people are so picky-particular that not much will please them and they will feel short changed unless someone does things perfect in their eyes. Is that bordering on being narcissistic? It sort of sounds like it to me. I know it is being hard to please.

Maybe I see too many things in a cost vs benefits light.


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## Steve2.0 (Dec 11, 2017)

There are so many angles and perspectives on this one. No single thread can cover everyone's motives.

I see a lot of replies saying "the spouse knows how important it is for me and a healthy relationship" and I agree with this *BUT* we all know how important it is to exercise 3x a week and eat healthy for FAR more beneficial reasons... do you guys all do that? No! Why, because there is no immediate reward. We all take it for granted and wont worry about it until physical issues become a real problem (by then its too late)

There's also attraction. I have this problem myself... after marriage you kind of think you got the key to access sex whenever you want and you stop doing a lot of the things that originally got your partner attracted to you in the first place. ALSO, consider that the more committed you are to your spouse you automatically lose some 'desire' points because you become a automatic sidekick. Someone always available. If she turned down sex for 3 weeks while you were dating there was a good chance the relationship will end.... Now you gotta deal with weeks/months/years of divorce and major financial ruin... so there's no urgency or immediate reward/repercussion. 

AND what direction are you moving in since marriage? Are you a better person (physically, mentally, and financially) or have you let most of those areas go? Have you gained weight? Stopped improving your job/financial position? If so, why should anyone be attracted to someone going on a downward spiral instead of someone who is improving and getting better?


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Steve2.0 said:


> There's also attraction. I have this problem myself... after marriage you kind of think you got the key to access sex whenever you want and you stop doing a lot of the things that originally got your partner attracted to you in the first place. *ALSO, consider that the more committed you are to your spouse you automatically lose some 'desire' points because you become a automatic sidekick. Someone always available.* If she turned down sex for 3 weeks while you were dating there was a good chance the relationship will end.... *Now you gotta deal with weeks/months/years of divorce and major financial ruin... so there's no urgency or immediate reward/repercussion. *


I don't know exactly why my husband is how he is but I do think it has to do with what you mention above in bold. It is what i call cake eating 101. The rejecting partner knows they have you by the proverbial balls and assumes the fear of losing the life they currently live is more important to their partner than suffering through a passionless relationship. 



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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Lila said:


> I find the dishonesty and selfishness to be worse than the lack of sex. I think most refusers lie outright or by omission their reasons for not sexually desiring their partners. They know that it can cost them the relationship. Meanwhile the partner being refused is left confused and guessing at solutions, sometimes for years. It is selfish.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


Conversely, the HD lies to themself on why they need sex at the desired frequency. All too often, this is about a fragile ego rather than a true desire to connect with their partner.

"Please show me I am desirable by having sex with me."

This thread is going down the road of bashing LD's. Sure, there are some that withhold for passive aggressive reasons, or other nefarious motives. 

However, a good many of them simply just don't want sex at the same frequency is their HD partners.

And frankly, it doesn't matter what "most" of anything does. It matters what your partner does. The macro-level matters not. Focus on the micro.

After focusing on the micro, and fixing your own crap, if the frequency doesn't work, move on. You must accept somebody for who they are, and either live with it, or choose not to.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Lila said:


> I don't know exactly why my husband is how he is but I do think it has to do with what you mention above in bold. It is what i call cake eating 101. The rejecting partner knows they have you by the proverbial balls and assumes the fear of losing the life they currently live is more important to their partner than suffering through a passionless relationship.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


Do you really believe this to be true of your husband, Lila?


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

farsidejunky said:


> Do you really believe this to be true of your husband, Lila?


Yes I do. I think fear keeps him from being honest because honesty would most likely cost him the life (and wife) he currently enjoys. 

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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Lila said:


> Yes I do. I think fear keeps him from being honest because honesty would most likely cost him the life (and wife) he currently enjoys.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


You don't think he desires you.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

farsidejunky said:


> Conversely, the HD lies to themself on why they need sex at the desired frequency. All too often, this is about a fragile ego rather than a true desire to connect with their partner.
> 
> "Please show me I am desirable by having sex with me."
> 
> ...


I apologize to the LDs out there that take offense to what I wrote but I stand by my post in that it is all too common for people to lie about their reasons for not wanting sex rather than being honest about it, regardless the reason. 

If someone doesn't want to have sex for x reasons, then wouldn't it be wiser to share those reasons, possibly address them or at the very least allow the partner to decide if they can live with status quo (shut up about it) or move on?

And as long as the HD is honest about it, it doesn't really matter the reasons for the HD to want sex. The rejecting partner can always tell the HD to pound sand, no?



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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Lila said:


> I apologize to the LDs out there that take offense to what I wrote but I stand by my post in that it is all too common for people to lie about their reasons for not wanting sex rather than being honest about it, regardless the reason.
> 
> If someone doesn't want to have sex for x reasons, then wouldn't it be wiser to share those reasons, possibly address them or at the very least allow the partner to decide if they can live with status quo (shut up about it) or move on?
> 
> ...


Absolutely. 

Please note that I wasn't quoting your post when I wrote what you quoted above.

Also, having followed your story pretty closely, I know you've pulled out all the stops to make things better on your end. Your husband is missing out.

What I wanted to make sure was clearly understood was that LD's are not necessarily the enemy, anymore than the HD is, as long as they are both honest with each other.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

farsidejunky said:


> You don't think he desires you.


I can only go with his actions and his actions say that he does not. If he did, I think he would do what was needed to fix his issues. 

It's no different than what I read others here post. 

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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

farsidejunky said:


> Please note that I wasn't quoting your post when I wrote what you quoted above.


I stand corrected. For some reason I thought I was quoting someone else.

Face meet palm.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

Handy said:


> * Ynot
> She only wanted what she wanted and it was totally up to me to either get on board or suffer the wrath. Over time whatever sense of partnership and team work that had been there slowly became her beating me (not physically, but mentally) to get whatever she wanted. A good example was vacations, she loved to plan them, but never could be bothered to save for them - that was my job.*
> 
> I felt beaten down but most of that was on me for thinking if I did more or tried harder she would like me more. According to some female posters here on TAN, it just showed that I was weak and she couldn't trust me to protect her.
> ...


I was able to exert a little control over expenses, but I was always made to feel like a complete heel. A great example was when my daughter graduated from college. My ex decided she would like to take her to Disney. She looked into it and gave me a figure. I told her there was no way on earth we could afford that, as I was at that time paying out about $1200 a month in tuition just so my daughter could go to school (which was in addition to every other household bill, all of which I paid). So rather than drop the idea, she convinced our son and DIL to pay half. I was simply told to write her a check since it had already been paid for. So there went the money I had set aside for taxes. Then she wanted to fly to Florida, which was where I finally had enough and said "No!" There is even more to that story. It wasn't long after that, that my ex decided to leave.
I realize that I had allowed all that to happen to me, but never again. What I thought were acts of love were just turned around and used to abuse me. Screw that.


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## Handy (Jul 23, 2017)

* Steve
If she turned down sex for 3 weeks while you were dating there was a good chance the relationship will end..*

That might be in today's world but back in the time I was dating couples "fooled around" but rarely had sex unless married or you were considered "lose."

Ynot, I saved or planned to pay taxes, insurance bills, and other big expenses. There was no way anyone was going to get me to give up money I designated was for major expenses.

Your X sounds like a person that thought more about having fun than taking care of responsibilities.

I am going to admit to being too responsible most of the time.


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## Handy (Jul 23, 2017)

I guess there too many possibilities to my question but I am still puzzled by some people saying they love their spouse but still don't want to participate in filling a desire that is supposed to only come from their spouse I am seeing that mismatches eventually diminishes relationships even with good people with good intentions.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Handy said:


> * Blues
> As horrible as our marriage was, and it sucked, my Ex W and I never stopped having sex. At least, not until the last few years of the marriage. That only happened because she was so wasted that I hated her guts and I was just waiting for her to get sober enough so I could divorce her, *
> 
> See, that is what I was thinking. You still had a sexual relationship even though the relationship was going down hill. I see that is sort of giving and also getting something in return.
> ...



you know, there isnt a much more effective way to change a picky eaters perspective on food than to let them go without food, even food they normally refuse to eat, for a few days. when they are completely going without, they will take anything they can get. if they have never gone hungry, how would they know what hunger does to a person?

those who are picky with when they will show love, well... if they have never had to go without feeling loved, then they will probably never see what the big deal is.


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## Keke24 (Sep 2, 2016)

farsidejunky said:


> Conversely, the HD lies to themself on why they need sex at the desired frequency. All too often, this is about a fragile ego rather than a true desire to connect with their partner.
> 
> "Please show me I am desirable by having sex with me."
> 
> ...


Totally agree with this point. I think in much the same way HDs have a difficult time sympathizing with LD, some LDs simply can't motivate themself to enjoy sexual activity they simply have no interest in. These are not bad people. Having experienced a drastic reduction in my drive with an ex who was the very definition of a nice guy, I can sympathize with an LD spouse having a hard time consistently engaging in sex when they just aren't in the mood. It's not like they can start with foreplay and expect responsive desire to kick in, they are expected to participate fully and display desire/excitement throughout an activity that they aren't getting any sexual satisfaction from. 

I suppose a quicky experience in this manner isn't that bad but what about sex where the HD wants passion and raw desire? That simply isn't there for the LD. Is the LD supposed to pretend? The LD who is perfectly satisfied with sex 1x every other week who's with an HD spouse who needs 1/day but will compromise for 2/week, is expected to engage in an sex they have little desire to participate in every single week. I can sympathize with that LD feeling pressured to do that, even to the point that their genuine desire in the 1x every other week sexual experience is eroded. 

I dreaded the planned sex with my ex. It was overwhelming being expected to perform and be fully engaged, the desire just wasn't there. It felt coerced and unnatural. I didn't feel I had any choice but to pretend during the entire activity. And it was difficult dealing with the feeling of being coerced. I couldn't help dissociating towards the end, I couldn't see how the pressure I felt to partake in the activity was much different from rape. There was no violence rather I was faced with a sullen partner who would be angry/resentful and repeatedly complain. Once I got through this week, I was already dreading having to perform the next week.

And I totally sympathize with the HD. It's a tough situation for everyone involved and I wouldn't wish it on anyone. I was surprised to find out very recently from my sister that her husband of 12yrs is LD. She's a 1-2x/day HD. He would be perfectly fine with 1x every other week. They've compromised on 1x/week but sometimes their work schedule/kids get in the way and they may miss out during the week. She said he was upfront about it from the time they started dating as teenagers, he explained that he when the guys were fascinated about sex and women he was more interested in being home reading a book or playing video games. She admitted that at the time she found that attractive about him, it was nice to meet a guy who didn't just want to jump in her pants and who didn't view women as sex objects. But the first few years of marriage she had a hard time coping and felt unloved. She even suggested an open marriage when her dissatisfaction peaked, deep down she wanted it to scare him into having more sex. Of course he immediately rebuked that idea. Today she says she's learned to accept this part of him and she appreciates that at least he was open about it from the jump. She is satisfied that at least he puts a big effort into the 1x/week. I honestly commend them for being able to work through that. 

We have a thread on here right now with a poster who simply can't cope with just 1x/week. He's ready to divorce his wife if things can't improve. This situation is just sad for everyone involved. I pity the OP and his wife.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Keke24 said:


> Totally agree with this point. I think in much the same way HDs have a difficult time sympathizing with LD, some LDs simply can't motivate themself to enjoy sexual activity they simply have no interest in. These are not bad people. Having experienced a drastic reduction in my drive with an ex who was the very definition of a nice guy, I can sympathize with an LD spouse having a hard time consistently engaging in sex when they just aren't in the mood. It's not like they can start with foreplay and expect responsive desire to kick in, they are expected to participate fully and display desire/excitement throughout an activity that they aren't getting any sexual satisfaction from.
> 
> I suppose a quicky experience in this manner isn't that bad but what about sex where the HD wants passion and raw desire? That simply isn't there for the LD. Is the LD supposed to pretend? The LD who is perfectly satisfied with sex 1x every other week who's with an HD spouse who needs 1/day but will compromise for 2/week, is expected to engage in an sex they have little desire to participate in every single week. I can sympathize with that LD feeling pressured to do that, even to the point that their genuine desire in the 1x every other week sexual experience is eroded.
> 
> ...


this reminds me of that saying...

"That’s the trouble about marriage. Women always hope it’s going to change the husband. Men always hope it won’t change their wives—and both are disappointed!"


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

I think a big part of this is that, at least in my experience, most people tend to assume that everyone - including their partner - is pretty much like them. If they consider themselves to be normal and healthy and rational and loving, they assume that other normal, healthy, rational, loving people should be like them. When it comes to a marriage, both partners often seem to think that what makes them happy will make their partner happy. What meets their needs, will - should - meet their partner's needs. And, if their partner isn't satisfied with what satisfies them (as normal, healthy, rational, loving folk) then there's clearly something wrong (not normal, not healthy, not rational, not loving) about that unsatisfied partner. 

People have a hard time wrapping their head around the fact that their partner has different needs, needs they may not share or even understand. They might see those needs as crazy, irrational, invalid. So, they start to see that partner as crazy, and irrational, too needy, high maintenance, too much work. _'Why can't they be happy with what makes "normal" people (people like me) happy?'_ That mindset is what makes books like His Needs, Her Needs or The Five Love Languages such revelations to many people. They never really realized, because it didn't every really occur to them to even think about the fact, that different people might have different but equally valid needs than their own. And that meeting your partners needs, even the ones you don't really "get" is how you actually sustain a healthy, loving, relationship. 

So, you get men who think talking, quality time together, and non-sexual affection is a huge waste of time and entirely unrelated to sex. You get women who think that sex is entirely unrelated to love. That's how you wind up with LD partners who think their HD partner is abnormal, perverse, a taker who only wants sex. While their HD partner sees their LD partner as defective, repressed, frigid, and unloving. And they all think it's their partner who's doing it wrong and needs to change. 

It's much more likely that both partners need to change something. But, in any case, checking to be sure it's not actually you that needs to change is a good place to start. You can change yourself, and you can ask your partner to change with you, but you cannot fix or change them. Refusing to consider that your own actions, beliefs, approaches, might be contributing to the problem is usually a sign that it's not just that your partner is defective, but rather that your entire relationship dynamic is dysfunctional.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

Handy said:


> Ynot, I saved or planned to pay taxes, insurance bills, and other big expenses. There was no way anyone was going to get me to give up money I designated was for major expenses.
> 
> Your X sounds like a person that thought more about having fun than taking care of responsibilities.
> 
> I am going to admit to being too responsible most of the time.


I was responsible as well, hence the reason I even had the money in the first place. But as I said, when she decided she wanted something and I didn't/couldn't/wouldn't provide it, I was made out to feel like a cheap skate or a failure.

It was the classic case of the frog in the pan of water. I didn't realize I was being boiled alive until it was too late.

Another great example is the fact that while my daughter was in college and I was scraping money together every month and doing without to pay tuition, my ex made around $55,000 a year. My daughter still graduated from college over $30,000 in debt. 
I had assumed that my ex had been investing in our future and that the sacrifice on my end was worth it, but it turns out that she cleared out a savings account we had set up to fund my daughter's wedding, and she guilted me into giving up her retirement and paid in full 1 year old car.


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## Handy (Jul 23, 2017)

Keke24 in regards to your post #41, I see you said your "X" was sort of HD and you were LD in reference to him. I understand you feeling like some mentally forced sexual activity on your part wasn't that pleasurable.

What I see often is the LD want to stay married but also wants to continue to be LD and not compromise all that much. Lots of people do not want to divorce so for that group there seems like a give without getting existence. Maybe if more people considered divorce like you it would be better for all involved. There is still to much stigma concerning divorce so people stay together until the camel's back breaks, then some times divorce becomes a mini war.


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## Handy (Jul 23, 2017)

* Rowan
....books like His Needs, Her Needs or The Five Love Languages .....*
For me "His Needs, Her Needs wasn't very informative. It seemed like stereotypes. "The Five Love Languages" now I thought that was more in line and helpful, even if it wasn't that much different than HNHN.

What helped me understand relationships in general more was the "EMOTIONAL NEEDS QUESTIONNAIRE" @ http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forms/enq.pdf and the other Questionnaires on the left side of the following web site. Marriage Builders ® - Successful Marriage Advice

Then reading David Schnarch's books (more in depth and more thought power required) and listening to some of the interviews and videos of him at various places on the Internet and on Youtube gradually help me understand other people in or out of romantic relationships.
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=david+schnarch+passionate+marriage


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