# I feel abused, husband feels I was stealing.



## BeautyBeast (Feb 3, 2015)

So, I guess it's my turn to ask for 3rd party opinion on my family situation.

I live in Canada, and English is not my first language. Sorry for possible omissions or broken language.

10 years ago I came here as independent professional. It's important point which means I was not sponsored by my soon to be ex husband or owe him my citizenship. 

7 years ago I met my ex, we fell in love and moved in fast. I just had quit my job preparing to spend two years on graduate studies at local university, that I had a grant from the Government for.

Shortly after moving in I found myself pregnant. We both decided to keep the pregnancy. Husband worked full time on the top managerial position, made around 100K/year. because of the pregnancy I changed my graduate program to another short term program to keep part of the grant. It was very small assistance - just 1000/months, enough to pay my personal bills and provide for my kids from previous marriage.

When it was too late to terminate the pregnancy my husband started complaining that I was not contributing enough into family budget. We set together and I showed him a breakdown of my income and expenses. He noted that I could have spent 5$ for lunch at University every day instead of $10 if I walked few blocks away to a cheaper place. I disagreed saying that $5 was not worth for 6 month pregnant woman to walk at -20C and severe wind.

Two months before our daughter was born I had to stop attending University and my grant was discontinued.
I expected my husband to provide for me, but obviously he had different opinion. He paid rent, utilities and bought groceries. However when I asked for some allowance he refused calling me and kids "a foot on his table".
So for months i was not able to buy for myself clothing, food that I wanted, feminine stuff, kids did not have any activities, I could not buy to anyone gifts etc. The Child support from the Government I spent all on kid's clothing and school expenses.

When our daughter was 5 months old I had enough of living in poverty and got a part time job. My husband immediately requested me to pay utility bills and buy groceries, which I did. 
In a year I had a full time professional job, so I started paying more household bills, at the same time fully providing for myself and my kids. 
My career grew steadily, I have been making more and more money. Right now I am doing pretty good.

We kept our accounts separately from day one. It was my husband desire, because he thought I was a gold digger (an immigrant) using him as a step up. Once we tried to start a joint account to save on travelling. Ended up me contributing and him having excuses not to. Then he complained on being broke, I let him have all saved money for his business and that was end of our joint account.

We paid household expenses proportionally to our incomes (mine 30% and his 70%) but I did all the housework including his laundry, and all childcare. He never ever was up at night to our daughter, never changed a diper, never walked with the stroller. 

His contract went pretty bad over few years, but he was too proud to tell me. Instead he stopped paying taxes, and Canada revenue got him. He has built almost 200K in debts, while I saved about 20K.

Last year he went back to highly paid contract and has been making twice more than me, but instead of paying debts simply avoided communication with the revenue officer.

Finally he disclosed me his debts and we set together trying to find a solution. 
I offered to move to a smaller house so I could afford pay 50% of shared expenses instead of 30%, and he could save and pay his debt off.
He wanted me to pay 100% of family bills from my savings until it drains off, and then 50% of bills from my income so he could have saved more.
Maybe I would if he did not abuse me financially in the very beginning, so I rejected and moved out.

He is suing me for half of my saving, trying to attach half of his debt to me.

I wander is someone finds his requirement fair?

I believe that since I was treated as a room mate with benefits from day one, I don't have to be responsible for irresponsible husband. 
However, he truly paid majority of family bills and most of travelling, so maybe I really owe him?


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## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

I think it's time to call a lawyer. How was he making 100k a year, and racked up 200k in debt? Something sounds off there.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Don't offer to pay anything.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Get a lawyer and tell him to fvck off. 

Let the courts decide.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BeautyBeast (Feb 3, 2015)

Immediately after moving out I hired a lawyer.

In my lawyer opinion my ex played smart from the very beginning, i.e. kept everything in cash, kept his employment under fake company showing very little income, sold all company assets and equipment for cash before we separated, while I had all my income and assets clearly traceable, I may lose the case.

But what's more important to me is to learn a lesson to avoid making same mistake. 
My ex says i was stealing from him by saving part of my income instead of helping him paying his debts off. He paid majority of bills when not paying taxes. I did not know about that until it was too late, but even then I refused to share my savings.


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## BeautyBeast (Feb 3, 2015)

Starstarfish said:


> I think it's time to call a lawyer. How was he making 100k a year, and racked up 200k in debt? Something sounds off there.


100K was 7 years ago. Then it was up and down. I think he was making revenue of hundreds thousand that particular year when did not pay taxes. And big part of the debt is a penalty for non payment.
I don't know his exact income at that time, so may be off in my assumptions. But a year ago I saw a letter from Canada revenue to him with request to pay $177K


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## brooklynAnn (Jun 29, 2015)

Don't give him anything until your case is heard and decided. Can you take out the money abut at a time and keep it in cash. I hope you have proof of how the bills were paid.

I think he had tons of debt before you and lied to you about it. Have your lawyer look into it. It might be him trying to rob you.


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## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

> kept his employment under fake company showing very little income


How can you lose the case when he was involved in what I'm going to take a guess is a crime. I mean, making up fake companies to hide being paid under the table to avoid paying taxes is indeed, a crime. 

If he got penalized from the government, I feel like wouldn't he have to prove you were a willing participant in whatever fraud he committed?

Did you discuss child support with your lawyer?

I might get a second opinion, that's just me though.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Since your husband insisted no keeping all finances separate and did not let you know what he was doing, you are in your right to argue against giving him anything. He might get it, but I would make him fight for it.

When it comes to the tax bill, check to see if Canada has "innocent spouse relief". Here in the USA, if you as his spouse had no dealings in his company and no way of knowing what he was doing you can ask to be excused from paying the tax. That puts the tax burden 100% on him.

.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

BeautyBeast said:


> So, I guess it's my turn to ask for 3rd party opinion on my family situation.
> 
> I live in Canada, and English is not my first language. Sorry for possible omissions or broken language.
> 
> ...


I'm Canadian, have been married and divorced and then married again. 

Your husband is a **** about money, and abusive, but the reality is that every dime you made while married, and every asset you gained, is half his. 

And vice versa. 

If he's a contractor, that company entity may be different. 

But I'd pay any money to have a douche like that gone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BeautyBeast (Feb 3, 2015)

Starstarfish said:


> How can you lose the case when he was involved in what I'm going to take a guess is a crime. I mean, making up fake companies to hide being paid under the table to avoid paying taxes is indeed, a crime.
> 
> If he got penalized from the government, I feel like wouldn't he have to prove you were a willing participant in whatever fraud he committed?
> 
> ...


CRA case is a separate hearing from the matrimonial property division. 
Yes, he tried to prove to CRA that I was a willing participant in his fraud, but I was not avoiding the investigation, was cooperative with the CRA officer, provided to him all the info requested, so when examining bank accounts they did not find any funds transferred to my name during the marriage. So far they find me clear.

From the family court view all debts made during the marriage are divided 50/50 no matter who made them. This case I may (or may not) lose.

Unfortunately it's modern fashion these day to give 50% of custody to whoever asks for it. So my ex won the custody hearing, got his 50% and does not pay child support. 
He has to pay me few dollars, like 150-200/month due to difference in incomes but I don't bother going to court. Legal fee and appearance at the court will cost me thousands. And because he under-reports his income, subpoena of witnesses, questioning him and them will cost me fortune.

Like I said I am more questioning myself in terms of ethics, what am I like from north american point of view.

And thank you very much to those who have answered.


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## CantePe (Oct 5, 2011)

marduk said:


> I'm Canadian, have been married and divorced and then married again.
> 
> Your husband is a **** about money, and abusive, but the reality is that every dime you made while married, and every asset you gained, is half his.
> 
> ...


Not necessarily. If she did no cosign or add her name to his debt (including CRA debt) all he is entitled to is half her savings and half the marital assets. That's it. I know because my credit is great, the husband's isn't and he is looking to bankrupt and I've already inquired about it as the legal spouse (how it affects me and it doesn't).

Canada has changed quite a bit, she does not have to assume any debt that is not in her name regardless of marital status. It's not in her name, it isn't her debt.

If I were her I'd be talking to a bankruptcy trustee/lawyer about marital debts and get the consult in writing then give that to her lawyer as a piece of evidence and then negotiate the savings account (he is legally entitled to half, out half in escrow and hold it there, the belongs to her).

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

CantePe said:


> Not necessarily. If she did no cosign or add her name to his debt (including CRA debt) all he is entitled to is half her savings and half the marital assets. That's it. I know because my credit is great, the husband's isn't and he is looking to bankrupt and I've already inquired about it as the legal spouse (how it affects me and it doesn't).


Maybe it varies province by province, but in mine, all debt accrued by either partner while married (previous to a separation agreement of course) is shared by both parties.

The only caveat in this case I can think of is if there is a company involved.


> Canada has changed quite a bit, she does not have to assume any debt that is not in her name regardless of marital status. It's not in her name, it isn't her debt.


Brother in law just divorced and I helped him a bit with the financial end of it.

His wife actually racked up about $100k in debt after he left the home but before they signed a SA. He was on the hook for half of it.


> If I were her I'd be talking to a bankruptcy trustee/lawyer about marital debts and get the consult in writing then give that to her lawyer as a piece of evidence and then negotiate the savings account (he is legally entitled to half, out half in escrow and hold it there, the belongs to her).
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


100% agree. Talk to a lawyer, I'm not one and could be talking out of my ass!


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## always_hopefull (Aug 11, 2011)

OP's I think your case may be different, we're not talking debt as in a regular marriage, this is debt by fraud, which may exempt you. However, they may assume that you profited from him incurring the debt and find you liable. The best thing he ever did was make you have separate bank accounts. 

Where do you think his money went to?


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## BeautyBeast (Feb 3, 2015)

always_hopefull said:


> Where do you think his money went to?


No idea. I assume hookers and gambling. 
I caught him two times buying hookers but it's almost impossible to prove in a court.


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## BeautyBeast (Feb 3, 2015)

Anyways I see nobody thinks I was stealing from the family by saving while husband was running into debts. 

That was important point as I am really doubting if I was right.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

If he legitimately committed fraud or illegal activity with the marital assets, you may be able to sue him civilly for damages, and for spending money that wasn't his to spend.

I kinda doubt it. But talk to a lawyer.


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## CantePe (Oct 5, 2011)

marduk said:


> Maybe it varies province by province, but in mine, all debt accrued by either partner while married (previous to a separation agreement of course) is shared by both parties.
> 
> The only caveat in this case I can think of is if there is a company involved.
> 
> ...


In Ontario it must be different...however, CRA is federal and nationwide. I don't owe any taxes, husband's employer down south screwed him over (long story for another day, some book keeping fraud on employer part) and he owes 5k still. Can't touch me, not my name on it, can't touch bank accounts, my name on them with his, hst - always get it, trillium same thing and we file taxes as married...

Must be some laws that we aren't aware of. A financial lawyer would be a great consult for her. She needs to get one to collaborate with her current lawyer for sure.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

This is just something you'll have to let your lawyer work out. And I don't see that you did anything wrong. If anything, you bent over backwards to make things right, and he just continued to use your naivety. Carry on.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

turnera said:


> This is just something you'll have to let your lawyer work out.


Exactly. My questions for BB is 1. how they filed tax returns and she didn't know what he was making and 2, is she a citizen of Canada. 
In the U.S. my defenses for her would be:

1. She is innocent and should not be held liable for his additional taxes he owes because her spouse, without her knowledge or sanction, surreptitiously and willfully understated or failed to report his income, reported income improperly or claimed improper deductions. 

2. Equitable relief for all income not reported properly on a joint return and clearly attributable to her spouse. 

3. Any additional taxes be allocated between her and her spouse, based on income, when income was not reported properly on a joint return.


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## BeautyBeast (Feb 3, 2015)

ThePheonix said:


> Exactly. My questions for BB is 1. how they filed tax returns and she didn't know what he was making and 2, is she a citizen of Canada.
> In the U.S. my defenses for her would be
> .


good question. I reported his income in my tax return based on his hearsay. Because he failed to report his taxes, CRA took back my child benefits that they paid based on my tax report. I only started receiving child benefits after separations (finally).

yes, I am Canadian Citizen. 

CRA has no claims to me, they assessed his debts against him personally. But family court....I don't know. After he won the custody providing false allegations, I expect unfair judgement on everything else.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

I'm considered an expert on U.S. federal income tax and previously practiced before U.S tax court but I'm ignorant of the Canadian tax system. I know a married couple has to report earnings by the spouse on their personal return for information purposes but did you pay your tax based on jointly combined income or does each spouse pay their tax based only on what they earn (like married filing separate in the U.S.) ?

If the CRA is going solely after him for back taxes attributable to him, it would seem unlikely the "family" court would set aside the CRA's ruling and pass part of his tax liability on to you, unless it was clear you enjoyed the benefits from the unreported income. Your separate accounting would seem to belie you enjoyed such benefits.


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## CantePe (Oct 5, 2011)

Family court cannot supersede federal law. CRA is federal law, they have made their judgement on him as being solely his debt.

Get your lawyer to file to disclosure on the CRA findings and present to family court.

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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Thieves think everyone else also steals just like perverts think everyone else is also a pervert. Get a lawyer, protect your child, your savings, your reputation, and your clean criminal record. He's a dishonorable, disreputable, lying, sack of felonious waste. It is his choice to be a criminal and you are not obligated to be one or to help him be one.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

CantePe said:


> Family court cannot supersede federal law. CRA is federal law, they have made their judgement on him as being solely his debt.


It wouldn't seem a family court would have jurisdiction to hear matters involving federal questions. I'm curious if Canadian tax law even permits a spouse to be held jointly liable for taxes solely attributable to their spouses earnings. My guess is she's going to have more trouble getting rid of this parasite she married than getting rid of her potential tax liability.


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## CantePe (Oct 5, 2011)

Canadian tax law dictates that a married couple, even if they file married are separate entities unto themselves to the federal government and any agent of the government, in this case Canadian Revenue Agency (our version of IRS for lack of better words).

While they do have the power to seize your assets, they rarely do. Also, it is not illegal to owe our government taxes only illegal not to properly file yearly taxes (unless they owe us income tax back)

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## BeautyBeast (Feb 3, 2015)

ThePheonix said:


> I'm considered an expert on U.S. federal income tax and previously practiced before U.S tax court but I'm ignorant of the Canadian tax system. I know a married couple has to report earnings by the spouse on their personal return for information purposes but did you pay your tax based on jointly combined income or does each spouse pay their tax based only on what they earn (like married filing separate in the U.S.) ?


I just buy a tax reporting software every year, complete all required fields and send to CRA. Not sure how taxes are calculated exactly.


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## BeautyBeast (Feb 3, 2015)

CantePe said:


> Family court cannot supersede federal law. CRA is federal law, they have made their judgement on him as being solely his debt.
> 
> Get your lawyer to file to disclosure on the CRA findings and present to family court.


thank you


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