# Considering leaving after 18 years



## Elc

My husband and I have been married for 18 years. We've both been faithful. I've thought about leaving him many times, but over the last 2 years, I've been in counselling on and off for it. The reasons:

1. We both grew up thinking it was acceptable for the husband to drink heavily. Once we began to have children, I begged him not to drink and he completely ignored my wishes. His only socializing for many years involved heavy drinking with his friends or family, and it ruined every special occasion we shared together. In the last 6 months, he has stopped this behaviour.

2. I was a stay at home mom for 10 years while I babysat extra kids and went to school to earn my degree. Raising my 3 kids was challenging, as my husband was drinking heavily and working extra hours. He rarely helped with routines and housework, and was often physically rough with our kids. He was irritable and sullen for the most part, and I felt abandoned by him during this time.

3. We had several big things happen. I finally graduated and began to work in my career, and I loved it. It fulfilled me and eased the financial strain on our family. At this time, my husband lost his job and became depressed. He gained 50 pounds, wouldn't look for another job and barely helped around the house with kids and chores. After months of this, he finally got a job working out of town for 2 weeks in, 2 weeks out. I was relieved because I needed the break from him and we needed money.

4. My 13 year old was diagnosed with high functioning autism. His behaviours were out of control and he became aggressive. I had no training on how to handle this, so I spent many late nights trying to read and learn as much as I could in order to help our son and the other kids. My husband did nothing at this time other than become angry when he came home. He completely dropped the ball and left me to deal with this. Again, I felt abandoned by him in a time that I was grieving and overwhelmed.

5. After I few years of intensive interventions, my child is now flourishing. Then my other child developed behaviours. I spent hours dealing with this, and finally found out the he had ocd type anxiety. I learned how to manage it, he was put on meds and I helped him to put into practice the things he learned in counselling. Husband did not participate in the process.

I told my husband last summer that I wanted a divorce. It was painful. He begged me to stay. I told him we'd been living in two different marriages and his memories were good while mine were not. We went for counselling and I agreed to give him some time to change his ways. During this time, he became clingy, began to grope and grab at me, and was in my personal space. I felt like I couldn't walk in my own home freely. I asked him to stop and he's cut back but he is still doing it. I feel like he does not respect my feelings.

He has changed his ways with the kids and housework. He stopped drinking. He has tried to be more connected to me emotionally. 

My problem now is that he has made some huge, positive changes but despite that, I feel angry that he hadn't done this before. I feel our relationship has been severely damaged over the years to the point where I don't know if it can recover. 

It's a cliche to say, but in honestly love him as a friend and co-parent, not a husband. I don't want to sleep with him. I don't want another man. I feel like I want to be in my own space with my kids.

I have three teens under 16 and don't want to move and shake up their world, but at the same time, I'm so unhappy when he's home that I become anxious, depressed and exhausted. As soon as he leaves for work, I'm happy again, energetic, and enjoying my kids.

Is it possible to recover from something like this? We've done counselling, both individually and together. We've been in this state of limbo for 6 months and it's killing both of us. I feel bad for him as he's made so many changes that I appreciate.


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## Pictureless

Elc said:


> My husband and I have been married for 18 years. We've both been faithful. I've thought about leaving him many times, but over the last 2 years, I've been in counselling on and off for it. The reasons:
> 
> 1. We both grew up thinking it was acceptable for the husband to drink heavily. Once we began to have children, I begged him not to drink and he completely ignored my wishes. His only socializing for many years involved heavy drinking with his friends or family, and it ruined every special occasion we shared together. In the last 6 months, he has stopped this behaviour.
> 
> 2. I was a stay at home mom for 10 years while I babysat extra kids and went to school to earn my degree. Raising my 3 kids was challenging, as my husband was drinking heavily and working extra hours. He rarely helped with routines and housework, and was often physically rough with our kids. He was irritable and sullen for the most part, and I felt abandoned by him during this time.
> 
> 3. We had several big things happen. I finally graduated and began to work in my career, and I loved it. It fulfilled me and eased the financial strain on our family. At this time, my husband lost his job and became depressed. He gained 50 pounds, wouldn't look for another job and barely helped around the house with kids and chores. After months of this, he finally got a job working out of town for 2 weeks in, 2 weeks out. I was relieved because I needed the break from him and we needed money.
> 
> 4. My 13 year old was diagnosed with high functioning autism. His behaviours were out of control and he became aggressive. I had no training on how to handle this, so I spent many late nights trying to read and learn as much as I could in order to help our son and the other kids. My husband did nothing at this time other than become angry when he came home. He completely dropped the ball and left me to deal with this. Again, I felt abandoned by him in a time that I was grieving and overwhelmed.
> 
> 5. After I few years of intensive interventions, my child is now flourishing. Then my other child developed behaviours. I spent hours dealing with this, and finally found out the he had ocd type anxiety. I learned how to manage it, he was put on meds and I helped him to put into practice the things he learned in counselling. Husband did not participate in the process.
> 
> I told my husband last summer that I wanted a divorce. It was painful. He begged me to stay. I told him we'd been living in two different marriages and his memories were good while mine were not. We went for counselling and I agreed to give him some time to change his ways. During this time, he became clingy, began to grope and grab at me, and was in my personal space. I felt like I couldn't walk in my own home freely. I asked him to stop and he's cut back but he is still doing it. I feel like he does not respect my feelings.
> 
> He has changed his ways with the kids and housework. He stopped drinking. He has tried to be more connected to me emotionally.
> 
> My problem now is that he has made some huge, positive changes but despite that, I feel angry that he hadn't done this before. I feel our relationship has been severely damaged over the years to the point where I don't know if it can recover.
> 
> It's a cliche to say, but in honestly love him as a friend and co-parent, not a husband. I don't want to sleep with him. I don't want another man. I feel like I want to be in my own space with my kids.
> 
> I have three teens under 16 and don't want to move and shake up their world, but at the same time, I'm so unhappy when he's home that I become anxious, depressed and exhausted. As soon as he leaves for work, I'm happy again, energetic, and enjoying my kids.
> 
> Is it possible to recover from something like this? We've done counselling, both individually and together. We've been in this state of limbo for 6 months and it's killing both of us. I feel bad for him as he's made so many changes that I appreciate.


What do you want? You knew how he was and you married him. You asked him to change some things and he has and you're still not happy. You said he loves you and wants the marriage. Sounds like it's you not him.


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## Elc

At this point, it is me and not him. As for knowing he was like that when we got married, I disagree. I knew about the drinking, which many twenty-something's do but eventually slow down with. However, I had no idea that he would be so disinterested in raising our kids and would not step up when needed. I couldn't even fathom dealing with those kinds of issues at that age anyway, and neither could he, so I feel the "you knew what you were getting into" type of argument isn't really valid, for most marriages, I would say. Who knows when you are twenty the issues you will face and how you will react to them? Certainly not me.


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## Pictureless

You wrote you both knew it was acceptable for the husband to drink heavily. He did. You asked him to stop. He did. You say you are grateful for many changes he has made. What's your problem?

Are you looking for someone to say it's ok for you to break his heart because you don't love him and you want a divorce?


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## wilderness

Stay married. You agreed to a lifelong marriage contract. Honor it.


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## LongWalk

Don't feel guilty about wanting him to disappear. He failed you. However, if you give those books on how a husband should act he may continue to improve. This could further build his self confidence. After D he take his improved self into a healthy new relationship. That would be good for your children, too. D may also send him over the edge into drink. But self destruction is his choice.
.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mablenc

Having a child on he spectrum is hard, are you sure you are not burned out and taking it on him?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Keenwa

I think it's important for us to remember that our husbands are not our children. it is completely ridiculous that he has not taken on any responsibilities whatsoever for his family. To continue drinking and acting like a child when he is supposed to be an equal partner to you is completely ludicrous. It's ridiculous that you would have to ask him to change his ways when he is acting a destructive and sick manner. You are not his keeper, or his therapist, you are his wife.

it's great that he's made some positive changes, but again it's a partnership. If he is doing that he should be doing it for himself and not for you, he should be doing it for his children as well. you're giving him a gift by asking him to change and he is accepting that gift by making the change. You have every right to say at any point that this doesn't work for you. he could turn into the most amazing father and roommate, and you would still perhaps not be in love with him and it would still be okay for you to say you need to move on. 

personally I believe that it's important to honor your feelings and if your feelings for him are not there it's okay to let go it's okay to accept that you feel what you feel. You do not need to feel guilty for how you feel. You will be doing your children a favor by living a happy and fulfilled life so they can see what a happy mother looks like. 




Elc said:


> My husband and I have been married for 18 years. We've both been faithful. I've thought about leaving him many times, but over the last 2 years, I've been in counselling on and off for it. The reasons:
> 
> 1. We both grew up thinking it was acceptable for the husband to drink heavily. Once we began to have children, I begged him not to drink and he completely ignored my wishes. His only socializing for many years involved heavy drinking with his friends or family, and it ruined every special occasion we shared together. In the last 6 months, he has stopped this behaviour.
> 
> 2. I was a stay at home mom for 10 years while I babysat extra kids and went to school to earn my degree. Raising my 3 kids was challenging, as my husband was drinking heavily and working extra hours. He rarely helped with routines and housework, and was often physically rough with our kids. He was irritable and sullen for the most part, and I felt abandoned by him during this time.
> 
> 3. We had several big things happen. I finally graduated and began to work in my career, and I loved it. It fulfilled me and eased the financial strain on our family. At this time, my husband lost his job and became depressed. He gained 50 pounds, wouldn't look for another job and barely helped around the house with kids and chores. After months of this, he finally got a job working out of town for 2 weeks in, 2 weeks out. I was relieved because I needed the break from him and we needed money.
> 
> 4. My 13 year old was diagnosed with high functioning autism. His behaviours were out of control and he became aggressive. I had no training on how to handle this, so I spent many late nights trying to read and learn as much as I could in order to help our son and the other kids. My husband did nothing at this time other than become angry when he came home. He completely dropped the ball and left me to deal with this. Again, I felt abandoned by him in a time that I was grieving and overwhelmed.
> 
> 5. After I few years of intensive interventions, my child is now flourishing. Then my other child developed behaviours. I spent hours dealing with this, and finally found out the he had ocd type anxiety. I learned how to manage it, he was put on meds and I helped him to put into practice the things he learned in counselling. Husband did not participate in the process.
> 
> I told my husband last summer that I wanted a divorce. It was painful. He begged me to stay. I told him we'd been living in two different marriages and his memories were good while mine were not. We went for counselling and I agreed to give him some time to change his ways. During this time, he became clingy, began to grope and grab at me, and was in my personal space. I felt like I couldn't walk in my own home freely. I asked him to stop and he's cut back but he is still doing it. I feel like he does not respect my feelings.
> 
> He has changed his ways with the kids and housework. He stopped drinking. He has tried to be more connected to me emotionally.
> 
> My problem now is that he has made some huge, positive changes but despite that, I feel angry that he hadn't done this before. I feel our relationship has been severely damaged over the years to the point where I don't know if it can recover.
> 
> It's a cliche to say, but in honestly love him as a friend and co-parent, not a husband. I don't want to sleep with him. I don't want another man. I feel like I want to be in my own space with my kids.
> 
> I have three teens under 16 and don't want to move and shake up their world, but at the same time, I'm so unhappy when he's home that I become anxious, depressed and exhausted. As soon as he leaves for work, I'm happy again, energetic, and enjoying my kids.
> 
> Is it possible to recover from something like this? We've done counselling, both individually and together. We've been in this state of limbo for 6 months and it's killing both of us. I feel bad for him as he's made so many changes that I appreciate.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Pictureless

Keenwa said:


> You have every right to say at any point that this doesn't work for you. he could turn into the most amazing father and roommate, and you would still perhaps not be in love with him and it would still be okay for you to say you need to move on.
> 
> personally I believe that it's important to honor your feelings and if your feelings for him are not there it's okay to let go it's okay to accept that you feel what you feel. You do not need to feel guilty for how you feel. You will be doing your children a favor by living a happy and fulfilled life so they can see what a happy mother looks like.
> 
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You don't need to be married to resolve YOUR problems that way.


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## Blondilocks

For the record: She asked him to stop drinking when the children started to arrive. He quit 6 months ago. So, 16 years of basically telling her to shove it and 6 months of not isn't going to win him any points.

This may be a case of 'too little, too late'. If you're not feeling it, you're not feeling it.


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## Gseries

I'm going to offer this....you've grown up, got a degree, a job and now you think this gives you the morale high ground to cashier your marriage and start over? Nice teamwork. Sounds like you had a different plan all along.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blondilocks

What is with all the hateful posts toward women? Your wife **** on you so you think you can take it out on other women? Grow up.


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## sh987

Leave him now, when he's doing so many of those things you want from him, and he'll just make another woman the husband you've been wanting (and starting to get). 

Prevent My Divorce: The Walkaway Wife Syndrome - YouTube

Take special note of the part where she talks about wives saying "too little, too late!" Hear it.


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## Red Sonja

Blondilocks said:


> What is with all the hateful posts toward women? Your wife **** on you so you think you can take it out on other women? Grow up.


:iagree:


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## lifeistooshort

Blondilocks said:


> What is with all the hateful posts toward women? Your wife **** on you so you think you can take it out on other women? Grow up.



Yeah, there are some po'd, bitter men here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Elc

Thank you all for your replies. 

A couple of things to clarify...

I was burnt out at one point with my child on the spectrum, but he's stabilized and I've learned so many new skills that he's a source of enjoyment for me at this point. I also have a great support system now, whereas in the past, I was more isolated. 

As for any type of hidden agenda on getting my education and job in order to leave my husband, it's not the case. It's something normal people do in life, get an education and work. I worked really hard to get where I am financially, and I stand to lose a very nice standard of living by leaving my husband. 

Keenwa, thank you for your response, I do feel quite guilty for even posting this here. I almost feel as though I'm on a train that's about to crash, and that no matter what I do, I can't seem to stop it from crashing. I wish I could change my mind to prevent my family from having to go through so many changes.


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## lifeistooshort

wilderness said:


> Stay married. You agreed to a lifelong marriage contract. Honor it.


Wow, that's helpful. So if a guy was on here complaining that his wife gained 50 pounds, refused sex for years, and now has made minimal effort but he's now detached I'm assuming you'd tell him to stay married?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lifeistooshort

Gseries said:


> I'm going to offer this....you've grown up, got a degree, a job and now you think this gives you the morale high ground to cashier your marriage and start over? Nice teamwork. Sounds like you had a different plan all along.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Yeah, she had a lot of nerve trying to better herself, and even more nerve asking for an involved husband.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## wilderness

Elc said:


> Thank you all for your replies.
> 
> A couple of things to clarify...
> 
> I was burnt out at one point with my child on the spectrum, but he's stabilized and I've learned so many new skills that he's a source of enjoyment for me at this point. I also have a great support system now, whereas in the past, I was more isolated.
> 
> As for any type of hidden agenda on getting my education and job in order to leave my husband, it's not the case. It's something normal people do in life, get an education and work. I worked really hard to get where I am financially, and I stand to lose a very nice standard of living by leaving my husband.
> 
> Keenwa, thank you for your response, I do feel quite guilty for even posting this here.* I almost feel as though I'm on a train that's about to crash, and that no matter what I do, I can't seem to stop it from crashing. I wish I could change my mind to prevent my family from having to go through so many changes*.


This is typical leaver speak in my experience. This is not something that is happening to you. It's something you have control over. Simply choose to do what is right and honor your marriage contract. At the very minimum, don't you owe it to everyone involved to at least try to make your marriage work?


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## Blondilocks

wilderness said:


> This is typical leaver speak in my experience. This is not something that is happening to you. It's something you have control over. Simply choose to do what is right and honor your marriage contract. At the very minimum, don't you owe it to everyone involved to at least try to make your marriage work?


Wilderness, just how many women have left you? From your posts you seem to have extensive experience with walk away partners.

Perhaps the marriage contract has been dragged through too much doo-doo to be honored.


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## Elc

Unfortunately, wilderness, life isn't as black and white as one would like it to be. If that were the case, I'm guessing you'd have no need for this forum.

The train analogy is actually descriptive of the battle between the social values I've grown up with and the sinking feeling in my head and heart that those values do not match with my ongoing situation. 

I find it completely exhausting. My main fear is of hurting my children and I'm putting their needs before my own but it's catching up to me. I am hanging in there to see if my feelings can change in order to prevent a divorce. A couple of my kids have actually asked me why I'm married to him and have said they can't see that we'd be together once they move out. At the same time, I know they'd be devastated by having to move and have their parents divorce.


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## Pictureless

Unhappy people shouldn't get married. There's no point to marriage if a spouse can walk away whenever they feel unhappy.


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## clipclop2

*Re: Re: Considering leaving after 18 years*



Gseries said:


> I'm going to offer this....you've grown up, got a degree, a job and now you think this gives you the morale high ground to cashier your marriage and start over? Nice teamwork. Sounds like you had a different plan all along.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What? Oh. I see. If it had been YOU this works have been YOUR plan all along. 

I don't think the OP is like you. 

People are suppose to grow up. And growth in marriage is part of how people grow up.

OP, I recommend separation. If you need time and don't want someone else, space with the idea of getting to know your husband again over time seems like it might work.

You are burnt out.


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## wilderness

Elc said:


> Unfortunately, wilderness, life isn't as black and white as one would like it to be. If that were the case, I'm guessing you'd have no need for this forum.
> 
> The train analogy is actually descriptive of the battle between the social values I've grown up with and the sinking feeling in my head and heart that those values do not match with my ongoing situation.
> 
> I find it completely exhausting. My main fear is of hurting my children and I'm putting their needs before my own but it's catching up to me. I am hanging in there to see if my feelings can change in order to prevent a divorce. A couple of my kids have actually asked me why I'm married to him and have said they can't see that we'd be together once they move out. At the same time, I know they'd be devastated by having to move and have their parents divorce.


Why not make the best marriage you can with what you have to work with? Surely this is not some horrible existence, you've said that you like your husband as a friend and father, so he is not a bad person despite having issues (which everyone has). Why destroy your own children based on 'the grass might be greener'?


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## Pictureless

clipclop2 said:


> People are suppose to grow up. And growth in marriage is part of how people grow up.


Only grown-ups should marry. There's nothing in wedding vows about "growing" in a marriage.


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## clipclop2

Nor is there anything about eating or deficating.


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## Morgiana

@OP: you are really going to get two kinds of advice here. Those that tell you what they think you should do, and those that tell you the answer you seek is within you already. 

I believe that you need to figure it out for yourself. Do you believe that no matter what you should stay married or do you believe divorce is okay? If you had a close friend going through the same thing, what would you want to tell them in your heart of hearts? What advice would you give? 

I can tell you that I see the shades of grey. I see how cheaters cheat, I can see why people stay, I can understand how some walk away. But you need to figure out what is right for you.


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## Elc

Thank you for your reply morgiana. I'm a person who sees the greys as well, which can cause me to get caught in an endless loop of overthinking. I'm also a person who does believe in divorce and I do not believe that marriage is 'forever' if it is not healthy and working for both parties. 

You're right, I already know the answer to my own questions. I guess I'm hoping the answer will change over time so that I can keep my family intact. The only good thing is that the kids are accustomed to having their dad work out of time for chunks of time, and they have commented previously that it sometimes feels like we're divorced. We do things separately at this point for the most part anyway, the main issue would be selling the house and buying another smaller one. 

Very anxiety-provoking...


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## Gseries

lifeistooshort said:


> Yeah, she had a lot of nerve trying to better herself, and even more nerve asking for an involved husband.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She has enough nerve to later state that "marriage isn't forever...". Did he know that fine print before he went in? Oh yrs, and he IS bettrting himself, maybe he should leave her?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## thummper

Elc, I'm encouraged by the fact that your hubby has made "huge changes" in his behaviors. Your telling him that you wanted a divorce was the wake-up call he needed to hear. The thought of losing you totally shook him up. The clingy part of his behavior is a clumsy and desperate attempt to literally hang on to you and not let you go. It's so hard to overlook behaviors that have gone on for so long, but he's willing to change life-long behaviors *FOR YOU*. I think he's terrified of losing his family, which obviously he has taken for granted. Now that possibility has hit him squarely in the face and woke him up to the real possibility of you walking out of the marriage. I wish you luck in dealing with this.


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## wilderness

Elc said:


> Thank you for your reply morgiana. I'm a person who sees the greys as well, which can cause me to get caught in an endless loop of overthinking. I'm also a person who does believe in divorce and I do not believe that marriage is 'forever' if it is not healthy and working for both parties.
> 
> You're right, I already know the answer to my own questions. I guess I'm hoping the answer will change over time so that I can keep my family intact. The only good thing is that the kids are accustomed to having their dad work out of time for chunks of time, and they have commented previously that it sometimes feels like we're divorced. We do things separately at this point for the most part anyway, the main issue would be selling the house and buying another smaller one.
> 
> Very anxiety-provoking...



If you don't believe that marriage is forever, why did you agree to a lifelong marriage contract?


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## Anon Pink

Pictureless said:


> Only grown-ups should marry. There's nothing in wedding vows about "growing" in a marriage.





clipclop2 said:


> Nor is there anything about eating or deficating.


:lol::rofl:

OMG clip lop that was priceless! I swear I peed my pants laughing!


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## Anon Pink

Gseries said:


> She has enough nerve to later state that "marriage isn't forever...". Did he know that fine print before he went in? Oh yrs, and he IS bettrting himself, maybe he should leave her?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


G, chill, she didn't say that. She said it wasn't forever if it's not healthy... And for 16 years it was not at all healthy! That piles up so much resentment I don't think a dump truck could remove it. Unfortunately, he didn't own his sh!t until the love was long gone.


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## Anon Pink

Elc said:


> Thank you for your reply morgiana. I'm a person who sees the greys as well, which can cause me to get caught in an endless loop of overthinking. I'm also a person who does believe in divorce and I do not believe that marriage is 'forever' if it is not healthy and working for both parties.
> 
> You're right, I already know the answer to my own questions. I guess I'm hoping the answer will change over time so that I can keep my family intact. The only good thing is that the kids are accustomed to having their dad work out of time for chunks of time, and they have commented previously that it sometimes feels like we're divorced. We do things separately at this point for the most part anyway, the main issue would be selling the house and buying another smaller one.
> 
> Very anxiety-provoking...


Elc, I was in you shoes for several years, wanting to leave but too afraid of all the changes and how it would affect everyone. Long story short, I stuck it out. Our relationship is much better now that my H found a way to get his head out of his ass! But it was a LONG road and we still have a ways to go. During the inevitable bumps, I always go back and wonder if I had left when I first wanted to...what would my life be like? I don't have an answer. But during the upswings I think, thank god I didn't leave!

I'm sorry the men in this thread have shown you the worst TAM has to offer. Most of the men here are fabulous. I think G is just having a rough time right now... he's usually awesome!


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## Elc

Thanks Anon. I'm in the same state, I'm hanging on to see if things can get better. He has made changes which I really like and appreciate, and make me feel as though we are more of a team. For instance, my middle kid is at the age where he needs his dad to guide him and set him straight when needed. So my husband has actually put in an effort and calls him when he is out of town (normally he doesn't talk to the kids). It's helping because my son needs to see that his dad is reinforcing what I am doing at home.

So that kind of stuff is good. It's just my heart not catching up to the changes. To me, if someone is begging you to become involved in family life and begging you to make some changes, you should not wait until your partner breaks down to do something about. It's very hurtful and very damaging.


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## SlowlyGettingWiser

Elc:

I understand where you're coming from. Sixteen years of total selfishness is hard to overlook. Him coming around ONLY because you told him you wanted a divorce is infuriating. He didn't love you enough to change BEFORE. He didn't love his kids enough to change BEFORE. He's ONLY changing NOW because he's comfy in the lifestyle he has and doesn't want it to go away. Hardly gives you that warm, fuzzy, I'm-all-loved feeling!

You're worried about the impact on the kids, but the real damage has already been done. Sixteen years of an alcoholic/heavy-drinking father. Sixteen years of a disengaged father who told them repeatedly (without words) that they didn't matter.

Have you guys done any FAMILY counseling?

Yes, he has made HUGE changes. Is it enough to overcome sixteen years of resentment? Only you can decide that (and it may take some time, and he may not like the answer).

Get yourself some Individualized Counseling to clarify what YOU require to be happy in your life.


For the men who say 'you're in it for life' or 'he's changed, what more do you want'...a rhetorical question only as food for thought:

Suppose a man (in his late 30s) was on here writing about his wife who has sex with him twice a YEAR. He tells her he wants a divorce. She tells him he can 'do it to her' every day of the week now, but she just lies there like a corpse...doesn't move, doesn't enjoy, doesn't initiate, just TOLERATES. What would your advice be to him? Still of the same variety (you're in it for life, she's made enough concession, etc.)

*Don't expect/require an answer here as that would be a thread-jack*. Just want you to honestly assess the situation from a male perspective. Would you still be all about the spouse just sucking-it-up like a big boy?


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## Morgiana

Pictureless said:


> Only grown-ups should marry. There's nothing in wedding vows about "growing" in a marriage.


To not grow is to stagnate. Life itself is full of opportunities to grow. To say that needs can not or will not change over time is short sighted. Having kids, getting older, major life changes all provide the opportunity to grow. When both people don't grow together or in the same direction, it can cause issues. Marriage is the commitment for two people to walk the path together, where ever it may lead. Marriage should never be about one partner having to drag the other kicking and screaming down the path of doing what needs to be done.

-M


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## Pictureless

Morgiana said:


> To not grow is to stagnate. Life itself is full of opportunities to grow. To say that needs can not or will not change over time is short sighted. Having kids, getting older, major life changes all provide the opportunity to grow. When both people don't grow together or in the same direction, it can cause issues. Marriage is the commitment for two people to walk the path together, where ever it may lead. Marriage should never be about one partner having to drag the other kicking and screaming down the path of doing what needs to be done.
> 
> -M


I understand what you are saying. However some people are perfectly happy with themselves just as they are. Meaning they are comfortable in their own skin. Happy with job. Happy with hobbies. Throughout lifes adventures and ups and downs. I agree all people grow in their own way. And needs and wants can change but that doesn't mean love for the person just dies.

When your spouse is no longer happy or accepting of who you are is what causes problems. Thats on THEM. You cannot ask a person to change who they are in order to fulfill your needs. That's selfish. Love is when you are with someone and you love them just as they are because there is no such thing as perfect.


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## Pictureless

SlowlyGettingWiser said:


> Elc:
> 
> I understand where you're coming from. Sixteen years of total selfishness is hard to overlook. Him coming around ONLY because you told him you wanted a divorce is infuriating. He didn't love you enough to change BEFORE. He didn't love his kids enough to change BEFORE. He's ONLY changing NOW because he's comfy in the lifestyle he has and doesn't want it to go away. Hardly gives you that warm, fuzzy, I'm-all-loved feeling!
> 
> You're worried about the impact on the kids, but the real damage has already been done. Sixteen years of an alcoholic/heavy-drinking father. Sixteen years of a disengaged father who told them repeatedly (without words) that they didn't matter.
> 
> Have you guys done any FAMILY counseling?
> 
> Yes, he has made HUGE changes. Is it enough to overcome sixteen years of resentment? Only you can decide that (and it may take some time, and he may not like the answer).
> 
> Get yourself some Individualized Counseling to clarify what YOU require to be happy in your life.
> 
> 
> For the men who say 'you're in it for life' or 'he's changed, what more do you want'...a rhetorical question only as food for thought:
> 
> Suppose a man (in his late 30s) was on here writing about his wife who has sex with him twice a YEAR. He tells her he wants a divorce. She tells him he can 'do it to her' every day of the week now, but she just lies there like a corpse...doesn't move, doesn't enjoy, doesn't initiate, just TOLERATES. What would your advice be to him? Still of the same variety (you're in it for life, she's made enough concession, etc.)
> 
> *Don't expect/require an answer here as that would be a thread-jack*. Just want you to honestly assess the situation from a male perspective. Would you still be all about the spouse just sucking-it-up like a big boy?


If he loved her he would go without sex. There's more to a relationship than sex. What if she was in a car crash and became paralyzed? Same thing. If you love someone you stay with them through good times and bad.

It all comes down to love. If you love someone you don't divorce them.


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## Zanne

Pictureless said:


> If he loved her he would go without sex. There's more to a relationship than sex. What if she was in a car crash and became paralyzed? Same thing. If you love someone you stay with them through good times and bad.
> 
> It all comes down to love. If you love someone you don't divorce them.


Loving someone is a choice. Our vows hold us to that choice when we become weak and fickle. However, it takes a heck of a lot of selflessness and sacrifice to love someone who has mistreated you for years. Seriously, you can't just turn that emotion back on. How about some constructive advice for the OP instead of "just do it, you signed up for this!"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## wilderness

Zanne said:


> Loving someone is a choice. Our vows hold us to that choice when we become weak and fickle.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blondilocks

"It all comes down to love. If you love someone you don't divorce them."

This is not universally true. A person can love their spouse and know that the continued marriage will only make their spouse miserable so they divorce. Some couples just can not be married and some people have no business being married.

Yes, 20/20 hindsight would be a great gift to be born with; but, most of us have to learn as we go.


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## Morgiana

Pictureless said:


> I understand what you are saying. However some people are perfectly happy with themselves just as they are. Meaning they are comfortable in their own skin. Happy with job. Happy with hobbies. Throughout lifes adventures and ups and downs. I agree all people grow in their own way. And needs and wants can change but that doesn't mean love for the person just dies.
> 
> When your spouse is no longer happy or accepting of who you are is what causes problems. Thats on THEM. You cannot ask a person to change who they are in order to fulfill your needs. That's selfish. Love is when you are with someone and you love them just as they are because there is no such thing as perfect.


The problem as I see it from women unhappy in a marriage is that a lot of times, they find that their needs aren't being met. Their husbands expect them to be their mothers, to make sure the husbands needs are being met without making sure they themselves are meeting their wives needs. Women try to hold the relationship together until they just can't anymore.

My spouse was very happy in my relationship; who wouldn't be when they are catered too, when they get to play video games when they get home instead of taking care of the kids and homework and supper. Who picked and chose which chores he would take on, and left the rest of what needed to be done (say, shoveling snow on a 2 car wide, 3 car deep driveway or any type of yardwork) to me with "you know I don't do that kind of work." 

The problem is with saying this is that it is all fine and dandy with _both_ spouses are committed to meeting each other's needs. When the equation is one-sided in giving though, it's just a matter of how much abuse the giver is willing to put up with as well as if the recipient is willing to change their ways to balance the equation.

Marriage is not about signing an agreement for life to be abused, it is a commitment for life to cherish each other. IMO, if love and cherish are removed, then that is as valid a reason to get divorced as infidelity or lack of sex.


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## LongWalk

How have communicated approval of his changes?

How has sobriety changed him?

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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## Pictureless

Zanne said:


> Loving someone is a choice. Our vows hold us to that choice when we become weak and fickle. However, it takes a heck of a lot of selflessness and sacrifice to love someone who has mistreated you for years. Seriously, you can't just turn that emotion back on. How about some constructive advice for the OP instead of "just do it, you signed up for this!"
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Love is unconditional. If you love someone you can forgive almost anything. Love is certainly not weak and fickle, but it is selfless and sacrificing.


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## Pictureless

Blondilocks said:


> "It all comes down to love. If you love someone you don't divorce them."
> 
> This is not universally true. A person can love their spouse and know that the continued marriage will only make their spouse miserable so they divorce. Some couples just can not be married and some people have no business being married.
> 
> Yes, 20/20 hindsight would be a great gift to be born with; but, most of us have to learn as we go.


Love is universal. It's unconditional. If you love somebody they don't make you miserable.


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## Pictureless

Morgiana said:


> The problem as I see it from women unhappy in a marriage is that a lot of times, they find that their needs aren't being met. Their husbands expect them to be their mothers, to make sure the husbands needs are being met without making sure they themselves are meeting their wives needs. Women try to hold the relationship together until they just can't anymore.
> 
> My spouse was very happy in my relationship; who wouldn't be when they are catered too, when they get to play video games when they get home instead of taking care of the kids and homework and supper. Who picked and chose which chores he would take on, and left the rest of what needed to be done (say, shoveling snow on a 2 car wide, 3 car deep driveway or any type of yardwork) to me with "you know I don't do that kind of work."
> 
> The problem is with saying this is that it is all fine and dandy with _both_ spouses are committed to meeting each other's needs. When the equation is one-sided in giving though, it's just a matter of how much abuse the giver is willing to put up with as well as if the recipient is willing to change their ways to balance the equation.
> 
> Marriage is not about signing an agreement for life to be abused, it is a commitment for life to cherish each other. IMO, if love and cherish are removed, then that is as valid a reason to get divorced as infidelity or lack of sex.


My needs aren't being met. Let's divorce. That's not love that's selfishness. Love is unconditional.


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## wilderness

I also think it's very dangerous and probably false to assume that just because a guy has a drinking problem, he deserves to have his wife leave him. That's a very punitive and short sighted viewpoint- especially when you consider that he has taken steps to modify his weak points.


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## Zanne

Pictureless said:


> Love is unconditional. If you love someone you can forgive almost anything. Love is certainly not weak and fickle, but it is selfless and sacrificing.


Pictureless, I'm sure most people would easily say they love their children unconditionally. But spouses? That's the ceiling. And we are fallen beings.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## wilderness

Zanne said:


> Pictureless, I'm sure most people would easily say they love their children unconditionally. But spouses? That's the ceiling. And we are fallen beings.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Zanne-

Do _you_ love your children? If so, why do you continue to intentionally harm them?


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## Elc

Pictureless said:


> I understand what you are saying. However some people are perfectly happy with themselves just as they are. Meaning they are comfortable in their own skin. Happy with job. Happy with hobbies. Throughout lifes adventures and ups and downs. I agree all people grow in their own way. And needs and wants can change but that doesn't mean love for the person just dies.
> 
> When your spouse is no longer happy or accepting of who you are is what causes problems. Thats on THEM. You cannot ask a person to change who they are in order to fulfill your needs. That's selfish. Love is when you are with someone and you love them just as they are because there is no such thing as perfect.


So if the spouse isn't happy with their job, doesn't have any hobbies, and generally doesn't participate in life's ups and downs, that's their own issue, right? But at the same time, their spouse is supposed to love then as they are?


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## Elc

The changes that he has made have been helpful. He now communicates regularly with two out of three kids, and talks or texts me every day when he is gone. 

When he is home all day for two weeks, he has started helping with chores. He drives to activities at night. He has lightened the mood in the house, most likely due to taking medication. 

I appreciate these gestures. I have told him so and the gestures have made me think.

However, he's doing a few things as well that are causing me some grief. He was being way to grabby in front of the kids, and started getting in my face and blocking my space, to the point where I can't move freely in my house. Very stressful, especially when I'm trying to get ready for work. And again, despite me asking him not to do this and telling him that this behaviour is counterproductive, he doesn't listen. He'll tell me he has to because I'm so cute. He recently backed do a bit more because I asked him to back off so that I can come to him instead of him chasing me. It's exhausting.

The main theme here I guess is that he's still not respecting what I'm saying, despite all the other changes. 

.


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## lifeistooshort

Pictureless said:


> My needs aren't being met. Let's divorce. That's not love that's selfishness. Love is unconditional.



Hmm, the men on this site are told to divorce all the time. "My wife won't have sex with me, my sexual needs aren't being met". He is almost always told to divorce. By your logic doesn't that mean he's selfish and doesn't love his wife?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## wilderness

Elc said:


> However, he's doing a few things as well that are causing me some grief. He was being way to grabby in front of the kids, and started getting in my face and blocking my space, to the point where I can't move freely in my house. Very stressful, especially when I'm trying to get ready for work. And again, despite me asking him not to do this and telling him that this behaviour is counterproductive, he doesn't listen. He'll tell me he has to because I'm so cute. He recently backed do a bit more because I asked him to back off so that I can come to him instead of him chasing me. It's exhausting.
> 
> The main theme here I guess is that he's still not respecting what I'm saying, despite all the other changes.
> 
> .


This is hardly a reason to get a divorce. C'mon, now... are you really going to destroy lives (including those of your own children) just because your husband is attracted to his own wife?


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## Anon Pink

Elc said:


> The changes that he has made have been helpful. He now communicates regularly with two out of three kids, and talks or texts me every day when he is gone.
> 
> When he is home all day for two weeks, he has started helping with chores. He drives to activities at night. He has lightened the mood in the house, most likely due to taking medication.
> 
> I appreciate these gestures. I have told him so and the gestures have made me think.
> 
> However, he's doing a few things as well that are causing me some grief. He was being way to grabby in front of the kids, and started getting in my face and blocking my space, to the point where I can't move freely in my house. Very stressful, especially when I'm trying to get ready for work. And again, despite me asking him not to do this and telling him that this behaviour is counterproductive, he doesn't listen. He'll tell me he has to because I'm so cute. He recently backed do a bit more because I asked him to back off so that I can come to him instead of him chasing me. It's exhausting.
> 
> The main theme here I guess is that he's still not respecting what I'm saying, despite all the other changes.
> 
> .


You know what Elc, you need to completely ignore both wilderness and his tam twin picture less, because they both totally effing clueless!

A parents love for a child is unconditional. A spouses love for the other spouse is conditional. If they don't understand that and refuse to see the truth in that, it is because it would hit too close to their own sad sad homes.

Frankly, what you describe about your husband crowding you, I think is rather erotic. However, since you are NOT in a god place with this man, what special kind of stupid does he have to think this is gonna work on you?

He's trying, you gotta give him that. What would happen if you let go and hopped in his lap? How terrible would that be?


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## wilderness

Anon Pink said:


> You know what Elc, you need to completely ignore both wilderness and his tam twin picture less, because they both totally effing clueless!
> 
> A parents love for a child is unconditional. A spouses love for the other spouse is conditional. If they don't understand that and refuse to see the truth in that, it is because it would hit too close to their own sad sad homes.
> 
> Frankly, what you describe about your husband crowding you, I think is rather erotic. However, since you are NOT in a god place with this man, what special kind of stupid does he have to think this is gonna work on you?
> 
> He's trying, you gotta give him that. What would happen if you let go and hopped in his lap? How terrible would that be?


The bottom of this post is actually pretty good.


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## Morgiana

Pictureless said:


> Love is unconditional. If you love someone you can forgive almost anything. Love is certainly not weak and fickle, but it is selfless and sacrificing.


This type of love is very self-destructive in the hands of an abuser. This type of love only works if _both_ parties practice it. This type of love can also leads to co-dependancy, because if a boundary is crossed and the transgression is forgiven without it being addressed, it can lead to all sorts of of issues.

In order to love another you must also first love yourself.


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## Gseries

Anon Pink said:


> G, chill, she didn't say that. She said it wasn't forever if it's not healthy... And for 16 years it was not at all healthy! That piles up so much resentment I don't think a dump truck could remove it. Unfortunately, he didn't own his sh!t until the love was long gone.


I'm chill, it is 7 degrees outside!
But hasn't she already made up her mind? I don't disagree if she doesn't love him...leave. still seems like everything else was noise. And I didn't buy the 'better yourself' attacks.....people don't need a college degree and a job to prove themselves. My comment was gender neutral. If a spouse gets a degree, a job, and a divorce, I've been told that is somehow better?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jung_admirer

Blondilocks said:


> For the record: She asked him to stop drinking when the children started to arrive. He quit 6 months ago. So, 16 years of basically telling her to shove it and 6 months of not isn't going to win him any points.
> 
> This may be a case of 'too little, too late'. If you're not feeling it, you're not feeling it.


The OP must choose whether or not to address the resentments created during the marriage. "Too little, too late" is simply an admission that the perceived value of the future relationship does not merit the effort to work through the resentments. I think the problem with this is that the OP will carry remnants of these resentments until they are addressed. My counsel would be .... work through (MC/IC) the resentments for you, then decide if there is any light at the end of tunnel.


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## Pictureless

Anon Pink said:


> You know what Elc, you need to completely ignore both wilderness and his tam twin picture less, because they both totally effing clueless!


I'm sorry you feel that way.


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## AlmostYoung

Anon Pink said:


> What would happen if you let go and hopped in his lap? How terrible would that be?


That would be rewarding the unwanted behavior. If the goal is to end grabbing/groping, then the proper action is to not reward it.

Instead, praise and reward positive behavior. 

Then jump in bed.


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## clipclop2

Just separate for a while.

If he has wised up as much as you say, it might just knock out the rest of the issues.

If you still feel like divorcing after a few months, he will be a good catch for someone else.


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## Anon Pink

Gseries said:


> I'm chill, it is 7 degrees outside!
> But hasn't she already made up her mind? I don't disagree if she doesn't love him...leave. still seems like everything else was noise. And I didn't buy the 'better yourself' attacks.....people don't need a college degree and a job to prove themselves. My comment was gender neutral. If a spouse gets a degree, a job, and a divorce, I've been told that is somehow better?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think if she had made up her mind to do it, she wouldn't be here in the first place.

G, you're ignoring the issues of the H being a drunk for 16 years and this woman being essentially a single parent. And when she finally had enough and said she wanted out, he sobered up. 

Now she's conflicted. He is finally doing what she had wanted all along but she isn't sure she can trust him to not go back to the way he was, nor can she suddenly become reattached to him. 

It's her conflict that brought her here. It's the place where I lived for a while and it's no fun! 

I think her H needs to keep up the good work but if she is gonna stay and try to make this work, she has to go ALL IN. Otherwise, she needs to leave and get the rest of her life started.

Of course that is so much easier said then done...


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## Elc

I've been feeling really good with him being gone for the past week and a half. I've been in contact with him every day. I like our conversations but am worried about when he comes home again. When I think of him coming near me and being in my space, it causes me anxiety. 
On the other hand, he has been trying to help me with one of our sons, which has had a positive impact on his behaviour at home. 
I told him before that I feel like we are friends and co parents. I do love him as a family member but I feel very disconnected in the marriage, if that makes sense. 
I'm not rushing anything and I'm giving myself time to see if I can come around again, but I know it's been so long that I've felt this way that coming back to the relationship 100% is going to be tricky and I'm not sure if that will happen.

I'll have a better idea of how things are when he's been home again for a couple of days. He's coming home next week.


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## Anon Pink

Elc said:


> I've been feeling really good with him being gone for the past week and a half. I've been in contact with him every day. I like our conversations but am worried about when he comes home again. When I think of him coming near me and being in my space, it causes me anxiety.
> On the other hand, he has been trying to help me with one of our sons, which has had a positive impact on his behaviour at home.
> I told him before that I feel like we are friends and co parents. I do love him as a family member but I feel very disconnected in the marriage, if that makes sense.
> I'm not rushing anything and I'm giving myself time to see if I can come around again, but I know it's been so long that I've felt this way that coming back to the relationship 100% is going to be tricky and I'm not sure if that will happen.
> 
> I'll have a better idea of how things are when he's been home again for a couple of days. He's coming home next week.


This is good!

The best thing to do is to promise yourself, and tell him, that you are thankful he is waking up but the most you can give him is an authentic response.

You have a lot of resentment, which is totally understandable, but if the resentment isn't dealt with it WILL prevent any sort of reconciliation. As you two try to discover whether or not your marriage is salvageable, you will have to come to terms with the past. You, Elc, will have to have the opportunity to express the abandonment, emotional, physical and financial, from his drinking days. He has to hear what you went through, he has to hear the pain of this years. At the same time, you can't hold those years against him because today is a new day. Let it out, but don't dwell on it.

It takes a lot of work and a lot of honest conservation to rebuild. It may not be possible. But you both owe to yourselves to give it your best shot.


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