# Sugest major actions. Please advise.



## venkii (Jan 14, 2013)

Dear friends

I need an honest opinion or any advises about the actions i should do to , resolve or start some remedy for my issues. 

I have been marriage for 8 years. 
I got married when i was 26 and it was an arranged marriage (parents fix - like this in India). I was young
and was not really sure about what kind of partner i need in my life. My parents were living with Me and my wife and we came to America after 1 year 
of our marriage and started living separately. When i was living in the joint family environment , there was a lot of argument and stress and fights
everyday. I could never figure out the issue, as i was not sure, whether it the stress on my wife due to my parents or my wife itself is the issue. 
But after coming to US, there has never been a day we have had no arguments. We could not get divorce as we had a child . 

I am not very super smart person but i still am good hard working with a decent salary. My wife has never been satisfied with anything or what ever i have done.
Not matter how much money i have spend on her i am never good enough. She has some severe emotional issues, where she needs soothing all the time,
she needs to be reminded that she is doing a great favor and i should always be nice no matter how angry she is. She spends without even thinking 
about our future. I am also not great person, i get angry and shout but i never initiate a issue. Most of all she never ever, thinks that this argument
is not going anywhere. After every fight she will cry or make a scene and emotionally tell that i am the one making issue. 

Initially i used to think, that it was me who was doing it. I changed myself a lot and still there had been no changes. But i saw that she behaved the 
same when her mom came to stay with her. 

WE had our second child 2 years back, i did not want to have as i was not sure if it will do anything with so much issue. 

After the 2nd son, she has literally become a maniac. I do not know what happened to her, she shouts for really stupid issues. She wants all his feeds
to be perfect and shouts for no reason. She fought with her mom and me for hours yesterday just because we missed the kids feed by 1 hr.

I used to take care of him at night and i had to leave early in the morning. With only 2 hours of sleep, 
i used to be so tired. She never cared. Once she wanted me to come for a walk with and i said no as i was teriibly tired. She fought with me hours
and finally i could not take the stress , i slapped her. She call 911 and i got arrested.

That incident had changed me, all these years i used to react and cry. Now as i was ordered by court to go counseling (anger management). During
this process somehow i got totally detached from her. She still used to fight as before but instead of reacting, i started being quiet and 
look like dummy . This used to irritate her more and she started loosing controls. It went so much, she started breaking down initially and used to 
cry . I have literally lost all feelings for her. 

Now yesterday the same thing happened, this time she started hitting herself and i watched. This made me feel bad at night. Since now this is affecting 
my kids and i love them to death. 

I have suggested counseling - marital. She does not want to go. She had some stupid theory that counseling does not work. 

This is becoming too much, she does not want to improve relationship or herself. I do not care if we do not talk also, as long as we live
like 2 strangers, with no fights i am fine. She does not want divorce also. But i cannot take it anymore, i want her to realize that things needs to
change. As i am ready to go for external help as i realize this is not something we can talk and sort out. 

*
I want to leave the house for some days and make her realize that i am serious. I am not great person, i have issues like other humans. but i want 
to change and take help, if it helps me. But i want her to realize the same. *

*Please suggest me, what i should do. Talking to my wife does not work out. She has become a total maniac with no fear or responsibility about 
the affect effects of such arguments.* 

*I want to do extreme steps that make her realize that something must be done..*


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Venkii, welcome to the TAM forum. I'm so sorry to hear that you and your W are going through so much pain.


venkii said:


> She has become a total maniac with no fear or responsibility about the affect effects of such arguments.


Venkii, you are not describing behavior that is "maniac" or "crazy." Those terms mean that a person has lost touch with physical reality. The result would be a distorted perception of physical reality, e.g., believing that the TV new announcer is speaking to her personally. 

Instead, you are describing a woman who sees physical reality just fine -- but may have a distorted perception of other peoples' intentions and motivations. If so, she is exhibiting symptoms of a personality disorder.

Significantly, every adult on the planet occasionally exhibits all the symptoms (i.e., traits) of the various personality disorders, albeit at a low level if the person is healthy. At low levels, those traits are a natural part of our defenses and are essential to our survival. They become a problem only when they become so strong and persistent that they distort one's perception of other peoples' intentions.

At issue, then, is not whether your W has traits of a personality disorder (PD). Of course she does. We all do. Rather, at issue is whether she has them at a strong and persistent level. This is an important issues because, if your W does have strong traits of a PD, you cannot fix it. She is the only one who can fix it and, to make much progress, she would need professional guidance.


> Now yesterday the same thing happened, this time she started hitting herself and i watched.


Does your W have a history of self harm such as hitting herself or cutting herself when she was younger? I ask because this is one of the basic traits of a certain PD. Yet, if she has strong traits of that PD, she also would have several other related traits. I therefore ask whether you've seen frequent and strong occurrences of most of the following behaviors:


1. Black-white thinking, wherein she categorizes everyone as "all good" or "all bad" and will recategorize someone -- in just a few seconds -- from one polar extreme to the other based on a minor infraction;
2. Frequent use of all-or-nothing expressions like "you always" and "you never;"
3. Irrational jealousy and controlling behavior that tries to isolate you away from close friends or family members;
4. A strong sense of entitlement that prevents her from appreciating your sacrifices, resulting in a "what have you done for me lately?" attitude and a double standard;
5. Flipping, on a dime, between adoring you and devaluing you -- making you feel like you're always walking on eggshells;
6. Frequently creating drama over issues so minor that neither of you can recall what the fight was about two days later;
7. Low self esteem;
8. Verbal abuse and anger that is easily triggered, in seconds, by a minor thing you say or do (real or imagined), resulting in temper tantrums that typically last several hours;
9. Fear of abandonment or being alone -- evident in her expecting you to “be there” for her on demand, making unrealistic demands for the amount of time spent together, or responding with intense anger to even brief separations or slight changes in plans;
10. Always being "The Victim," a false self image she validates by blaming you for every misfortune;
11. Lack of impulse control, wherein she does reckless things without considering the consequences (e.g., binge eating or spending);
12. Complaining that all her previous BFs were abusive and claiming (during your courtship) that you are the only one who has treated her well;
13. Mirroring your personality and preferences so perfectly during the courtship period (e.g., enjoying everything and everyone you like) that you were convinced you had met your "soul mate;"
14. Relying on you to center and ground her, giving her a sense of direction because her goals otherwise keep changing every few months;
15. Relying on you to sooth her and calm her down, when she is stressed, because she has so little ability to do self soothing;
16. Having many casual friends but not any close long-term friends (unless they live a long distance away);
17. Taking on the personality of whatever person she is talking to, thereby acting quite differently around different types of people; and
18. Always convinced that her intense feelings accurately reflect reality -- to the point that she regards her own feelings as self-evident facts, despite her inability to support them with any hard evidence.



> Please suggest me, what i should do.


I suggest that you see a clinical psychologist -- for a visit or two all by yourself -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is you and your children are dealing with. And, while you're waiting for an appointment, I suggest you examine the 18 traits I listed above. If most of them do not apply to your W's behavior, please ignore the list. If most do apply, however, please tell us which ones are the strongest. I will be happy to discuss them with you. Take care, Venkii.


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## venkii (Jan 14, 2013)

Thanks for your reply. You questions listed almost all her traits.

I am just posting the feedback on your questions. *She does not want to goto counseling. I want to do something extreme, to make sure she understands that i am serious this time. Like leaving the house. *



At issue, then, is not whether your W has traits of a personality disorder (PD). Of course she does. We all do. Rather, at issue is whether she has them at a strong and persistent level. This is an important issues because, if your W does have strong traits of a PD, you cannot fix it. She is the only one who can fix it and, to make much progress, she would need professional guidance.
Quote:
Now yesterday the same thing happened, this time she started hitting herself and i watched.
Does your W have a history of self harm such as hitting herself or cutting herself when she was younger? I ask because this is one of the basic traits of a certain PD. Yet, if she has strong traits of that PD, she also would have several other related traits. I therefore ask whether you've seen frequent and strong occurrences of most of the following behaviors:


*No she never used to hurt herself. But she will talk over loud and emotional, till i break down. I built up the emotional strength not to respond to her, and this was the result of that non response to her provacations. *

1. Black-white thinking, wherein she categorizes everyone as "all good" or "all bad" and will 
recategorize someone -- in just a few seconds -- from one polar extreme to the other based on a minor infraction;

*Yes, this happens all the time. I feel like i am walking on egg shells, and any moment , any action or word triggers her. *



2. Frequent use of all-or-nothing expressions like "you always" and "you never;"

yes. 
3. Irrational jealousy and controlling behavior that tries to isolate you away from close friends or family members;

She is jealous, if i talk close to my mom. 

*Controlling - very much. She is working now, but when she was at home, she got comfortable hours to goto gym with the excuse that she needs 
a timeout. If i ask for 1 hr a week on weekends for that gym, all hell breaks loose.*

4. A strong sense of entitlement that prevents her from appreciating your sacrifices, resulting 
in a "what have you done for me lately?" attitude and a double standard;

*Yes. Everytime, all my help and sacrifices are ignored and treated as if it is my job. Recently, she was trying for work. 
She is very good hardworking person. She used to study all night for interview prep. Since she was studying i used to help
my elder kid and youger kid. Also i used to let her sleep little in the morning till 9-10 am. This affect my job, there was a
action taken on me for discipline and ethics due to coming late. I still beared this, to help her. This is first in 11 year in my career
someone has put a finger on for such a reason. 

But there has been no appreciation from her. *

5. Flipping, on a dime, between adoring you and devaluing you -- making you feel like you're always walking on eggshells;

*All the time. *

*e.g. If she asks me someting and i say ok in a different tone, she is upset. *

6. Frequently creating drama over issues so minor that neither of you can recall what the fight was about two days later;

Yes
7. Low self esteem;
*Self esteem is not low but high. but selfish*

8. Verbal abuse and anger that is easily triggered, in seconds, by a minor thing you say or do (real or imagined), 
resulting in temper tantrums that typically last several hours;

Yes

9. Fear of abandonment or being alone -- evident in her expecting you to “be there” for her on demand, 
making unrealistic demands for the amount of time spent together, or responding with intense 
anger to even brief separations or slight changes in plans;

Yes. i have never abandoned her. But she is very upset if something is not according to schedule.

10. Always being "The Victim," a false self image she validates by blaming you for every misfortune;

Yes. I am blamed for all the things, i dunno .. even i cannot remember what she brings up when she is upset. 

11. Lack of impulse control, wherein she does reckless things without considering the consequences (e.g., binge eating or spending);

Overspending.

12. Complaining that all her previous BFs were abusive and claiming (during your courtship) that you are the only one who has treated her well;

* Not sure. Since she never had any BFs. But all the husbands of her friends are always better than me, no matter what i do.*

13. Mirroring your personality and preferences so perfectly during the courtship period (e.g., enjoying everything and everyone you like) 
that you were convinced you had met your "soul mate;"

Not sure. 
14. Relying on you to center and ground her, giving her a sense of direction because her goals otherwise keep changing every few months;

Not seen 

15. Relying on you to sooth her and calm her down, when she is stressed, because she has so little ability to do self soothing;

Allways

16. Having many casual friends but not any close long-term friends (unless they live a long distance away);

*She does not have any close friends, whom she opens up on her personal issues.*
17. Taking on the personality of whatever person she is talking to, thereby acting quite differently around different types of people; and
not sure

18. Always convinced that her intense feelings accurately reflect reality -- to the point that she regards her own feelings as self-evident facts, despite her inability to support them with any hard evidence.

Yes.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Venkii, thanks for your detailed response to my questions. That is very helpful. The 18 behaviors I described are all classic traits of BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). Those 18 behaviors are simply my expansions on the basic 9 traits of BPD. As I said earlier, we all occasionally exhibit all nine of those traits all the way through adulthood.

Significantly, an emotionally healthy adult occasionally gets flareups of those traits, at which time they temporarily will appear very strong. The most common causes for such flareups are enormous stress, drug abuse, and a hormone change. I mention this because you said that, immediately after your second son was born two years ago, your W "became a maniac." 

Hence, if you had 6 good years with your W, followed by 2 bad years after the second childbirth, you may be describing a woman who simply has postpartum depression (i.e., a hormone problem) which commonly will last up to two years. On the other hand, you seem to indicate that the first 6 years were full of strife and arguments too. If so, exactly what terrible thing happened at the end of 6 years to warrant the description of "maniac"?

I ask because an important issue you will want to resolve -- if your W has strong BPD traits -- is whether they are not only strong BUT ALSO PERSISTENT. This is important because, if the traits are temporary, they might be easily treated by her taking a hormone supplement. On the other hand, if the traits have persisted since her early teens, you would be describing a personality disorder that likely would take many years to treat -- and which might be passed onto one of your two boys.

This is why I suggest you seek professional advice from a good clinical psychologist (not a MC). I also suggest, because you know little of her background before your arranged marriage occurred, that you question her family members about her childhood history and behavior.

I caution that, if your W really does have a persistent pattern of strong BPD traits, you also should be seeing emotional instability. That is, over the past 8 years, you should have seen a repeated cycle of push-you-away (when your W is devaluing you and "splitting you black") and pull-you-back (when she is loving you and "splitting you white"). 

You do agree (in your last post) that your W flips back and forth between adoring you and devaluing you. You do not explain, however, how she could be adoring you frequently -- given that you don't mention that she ever intensely loved you at any point in your marriage. Instead, you seem to describe the entire 8 years as having a fight every day. I therefore ask whether you did see the push-pull cycle and, if so, whether you were convinced that she truly did love you at some point?

I also caution that, because I've never met your W, I cannot tell you whether her BPD traits are strong and persistent. I nonetheless am confident that, if you take time to learn how to spot the nine BPD warning signs, you will be able to spot any and all that occur. 

Of course, you will not be able to determine whether her traits are so severe as to meet 100% of the diagnostic threshold for having full-blown BPD. Only professionals can do that. You nevertheless should be able to spot the red flags. There is nothing subtle about BPD traits such as verbal abuse, always being "The Victim," lack of impulse control, and temper tantrums.

Venkii, for a more detailed description of that push-pull cycle and other BPD traits, please see my discussion of them in my posts at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/33734-my-list-hell.html#post473522 and at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/consid...t-over-leaving-single-mother.html#post2399297.


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