# Take me to your leader.



## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

Couples of past and present. If you were approached and asked "who's the leader here?" Is it you or your partner?

Now, I'm anticipating this response from some "we work as a team ... blah blah blah" which a good couple should. However, some people are just natural leaders. I suspect the ones who say "nobody leads, its a team effort" are the leaders of that unit. That's something a natural leader would say. Or it could be a complete team effort too of course I suppose, but for some reason I sort of doubt this. 

A good leader will also make it feel so natural to follow them. Its like you aren't being told what to do, or feel like you are ever bossed around. Its just so easy to follow their lead that feels right. I don't have a good way to really explain it as I'm a natural follower and really enjoy the support role. For me, I love feeling like I'm the heartbeat of the operation. Provide the leader with all the tools they need to do what they do best. 

My wife is a natural leader. Like many, they don't think they are good leaders. Yet everywhere they go, people follow their lead and they do it naturally and because you are just drawn to them. Its hard to explain, but I'm not sure I have to. I think everyone knows what I'm talking about. Anyway, she's asked every year to take the lead role at work from pretty much everyone up there. She's always saying "I don't know why they ask me" and I lay it all out every time that she's just a natural leader and people can't really help it. They already follow her lead and she doesn't try. Which I point out, that's what makes you a natural leader silly! So, this is where I sort of get that idea that someone is always the leader, even when that leader doesn't feel like they are leading anyone or even trying to. 

Anyway, just curious, who's the leader in your relationship? Do you think this is important to have one person be it, or do you want no leader and instead both strive to make it a team leadership? I personally think it's important that someone takes lead. With the understanding that all good leaders have of course which is they don't lead 100% of the time. Big decisions all that stuff takes two, all the normal stuff one should expect still applies obviously. 

There, I think I've covered all my bases so I can get a "its them" or "its me" answer, but y'all will let me know if I haven't :grin2:

You or them?


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

TheDudeLebowski said:


> Couples of past and present. If you were approached and asked "who's the leader here?" Is it you or your partner?
> 
> Now, I'm anticipating this response from some "we work as a team ... blah blah blah" which a good couple should. However, some people are just natural leaders. I suspect the ones who say "nobody leads, its a team effort" are the leaders of that unit. That's something a natural leader would say. Or it could be a complete team effort too of course I suppose, but for some reason I sort of doubt this.
> 
> ...


*In two marriages, I was in the lead in Marriage #1, but was relegated to follower status by RSXW's wealth and social stigma in Marriage #2.

I do know that from a Biblical Judeo-Christian perspective, the husband is supposed to take the initiative, but in most marriages, I cannot help but feel that leadership in most marriages usually turns out to be a shared characteristic!

With little reservation, the one firm conclusion that I have firmly grasped on to however, is that regardless of whether one is engaged with a "leader" wife or a "follower" wife, either is quite capable of infidelity and equally capable of cheating!

And I would feel rather sure that the same is true of males!*


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

TheDudeLebowski said:


> Couples of past and present. If you were approached and asked "who's the leader here?" Is it you or your partner?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Different areas require different types of leading....My wife is generally leading all the day to day and stuff to do with kids, their education, meal planning, driving them, shopping, cooking etc.
I help her with some of the stuff.

But I “lead” more when it comes to money/investments, my career and the tons of stuff to do with that, bigger decisions, taking out the rubbish, repairing **** around the house...
It kind of balances out in the end I think.

I don’t know if leader is the right word. More like distribution of responsibilities.

Just try not to put too much onto your wife. And also take some initiative with certain trajectories; discuss it with her if you have an opinion about decisions she makes but don’t sound like you are critical, then you should be fine and she’ll feel like you are participating.

Also don’t forget to project encouragement and compliment her if she did something well...it’s important that she doesn’t feel you are in competition.

Not sure why I’m giving advice as that wasn’t part of the question lol but I feel like you may be are not sure if the roles distributed in this way are the norm.
Sometimes, if you (general you) mostly can keep you **** together, it’s already a big help 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

I’m the leader in my marriage. 
And I have my wife’s permission to say so!


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

I can't imagine being with a man who allows _me_ to wear the pants. I could never respect a man like that.

Therefore, the obvious answer is that my hubby is the leader. :grin2:


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## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

Until you mentioned that most people will say "we're a team" I was going to say that was true of my marriage. But, in all honesty, I was the leader. There were very few things that we did his way. I decided everything about the kids, the house, where we'd live, how we'd live, etc. He just went along with what I said. I think he just found it easier that way. It's not like I would refuse to hear him out, he just never had anything to say. Even now, we're getting divorced and he'll still text me to ask if it's okay for the kids to do something or how he should handle something with them. It's just our dynamic. I even decided when we'd get divorced and I've decided how we're handling everything about the divorce. He just goes along with whatever I say...again, I would be happy to discuss things if he had other ideas, but he never wants to, he just goes along with what I say. In the case of the divorce, I think some of that is from guilt. It works to my advantage but I try hard not to take advantage if that makes sense. I want things as even as possible. I don't want to screw him over but I also don't want to get screwed over either.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> I can't imagine being with a man who allows _me_ to wear the pants.


And that is why you are my favourite feminist on here


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

notmyjamie said:


> Until you mentioned that most people will say "we're a team" I was going to say that was true of my marriage. But, in all honesty, I was the leader. There were very few things that we did his way. I decided everything about the kids, the house, where we'd live, how we'd live, etc. He just went along with what I said. I think he just found it easier that way. It's not like I would refuse to hear him out, he just never had anything to say. Even now, we're getting divorced and he'll still text me to ask if it's okay for the kids to do something or how he should handle something with them. It's just our dynamic. I even decided when we'd get divorced and I've decided how we're handling everything about the divorce. He just goes along with whatever I say...again, I would be happy to discuss things if he had other ideas, but he never wants to, he just goes along with what I say. In the case of the divorce, I think some of that is from guilt. It works to my advantage but I try hard not to take advantage if that makes sense. I want things as even as possible. I don't want to screw him over but I also don't want to get screwed over either.


Ok this seems like an important component for a successful partnership (for a man not being too passive). But I think it is for a certain type of woman (the one I usually click with more). There are others, that won't allow their man to take any kind of leadership role and view everything that the guy does as a competition and a threat and puts him in his place. Which can be counterproductive for the overall marriage. 
I am not sure when it's the personality trait and when it is due to this different dynamic requirement. (Because these control-freaky women then sometimes leaves the doormat guy for a more dominating one, while other are happy and fulfilled with the easy-going/agree-with-everything type).
Don't think there's a right or wrong, just different needs and types maybe...


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## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

InMyPrime said:


> Ok this seems like an important component for a successful partnership (for a man not being too passive). But I think it is for a certain type of woman (the one I usually click with more). There are others, that won't allow their man to take any kind of leadership role and view everything that the guy does as a competition and a threat and puts him in his place. Which can be counterproductive for the overall marriage.
> I am not sure when it's the personality trait and when it is due to this different dynamic requirement. (Because these control-freaky women then sometimes leaves the doormat guy for a more dominating one, while other are happy and fulfilled with the easy-going/agree-with-everything type).
> Don't think there's a right or wrong, just different needs and types maybe...


If I'm being totally honest, there are some things that I would be upset if he tried to get his way and it was in direct opposition to mine. I decide all medical things in the family. End.of.story. Don't come at me with some freaking wikipedia article telling me we should do things differently. It won't go well for you. LOL In the very beginning of our parenting days he used to get upset that I didn't bring our daughter to the doctor to get antibiotics for every little sniffle. Or he'd want me to treat their symptoms with old wive's tale type crap he learned from his mother. Um, nope, not gonna happen. As time went on he did eventually realize that I do actually know what I'm doing and I have a good handle on when they actually need a doctor. Once that trust came through, he changed his tune and now consults me on all medical things, even now that we're divorcing. 

But other stuff I'd be okay with compromise or even trying it his way. I wouldn't see it as a competition. There were times I'd almost be begging him to have an opinion or to make the decision and he just couldn't or wouldn't. 

It might end up being a huge adjustment for me if I end up with someone who has strong opinions about things and I have to learn to compromise more. I'm not saying that would be a bad thing, just an adjustment. It might be refreshing not to have to make every damn decision all the time.


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## lucy999 (Sep 28, 2014)

I am. I think I am like your wife. People look to me to lead-at work, in my friendships, even in my family. I don't like it. 

That said, my husband is no doormat. He knows how to "handle" me and that's what makes me so attracted to him. 

My first relationship my bf was extremely conflict avoidant. Total *****. After that I over-corrected and look where that got me-an abusive man. My husband is just right. He stands up for himself and doesn't back down.

My independence comes through in my marriage. I have a big personality and I'm a handful at times. I am opinionated, inflexible, and can be quite stubborn (not something I'm proud of). I will definitely concede, go belly up and apologize if I am wrong or hurt his feelings.

I am the thinker, he is the doer. Sometimes I get exhausted with that dynamic. I call it "steering the ship". I ask my husband if he will get in the captain's seat for awhile and he does.

Sometimes I wish that wasn't our default dynamic but if I am 100% honest I'm not sure if I'd like it any other way. Deep down I bristle at the notion.


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> I can't imagine being with a man who allows _me_ to wear the pants. I could never respect a man like that.
> 
> Therefore, the obvious answer is that my hubby is the leader. :grin2:


Completely understandable. That's a wrinkle I hadn't considered, but certainly important and a deal breaker to many.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

That one is easy .... Me for sure in all things. Money, house, work....etc etc.

But .... Kids were 50/50


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

lucy999 said:


> I am the thinker, he is the doer. Sometimes I get exhausted with that dynamic. I call it "steering the ship". I ask my husband if he will get in the captain's seat for awhile and he does.


Yes, just like this. The day to day chores and tasks are shared, but she's usually controlling the rutter. I feel better when she is behind the wheel, and I'm better at taking the actions necessary to make sure she doesn't have to worry about the mast, ropes, sails, and giving her what she needs to where she can focus more on the direction this ship is going.


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> I can't imagine being with a man who allows _me_ to wear the pants. I could never respect a man like that.
> 
> Therefore, the obvious answer is that my hubby is the leader. :grin2:


This is my wife too. She, and therefore the relationship, doesn’t do well if I’m not leading. And she’ll let me know is I’m not cutting it. Even when we were dating we said it was surgeon/nurse thing.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

My husband is the leader, though we both contribute with our varying strengths. I think things work better that way in general. I say in general because there may or may not be actual exceptions to this period I have seen some instances where an exception made sinnett's. I've never really understood why the idea of the man being the leader of the home was so offensive. Mostly it seems to be because a very particular ilk of Finist equates anything having to do with male leadership as oppression com which is ridiculous.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

One thing I forgot to mention is that some men probably find it a pretty big burden to be put into the role of constantly having to lead...
Women will often say 'i feel much more comfortable if my husband is leading' but I wonder if anyone actually asked the husband if they actually like leading 
I think some kind of shared thing should work best IMO.


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

InMyPrime said:


> One thing I forgot to mention is that some men probably find it a pretty big burden to be put into the role of constantly having to lead...
> Women will often say 'i feel much more comfortable if my husband is leading' but I wonder if anyone actually asked the husband if they actually like leading
> I think some kind of shared thing should work best IMO.


Like I mentioned in the OP, a good leader never leads 100% of the time. Lest they become a tyrant. 

Being a Harry Potter nerd, here's a Dumbledore quote that is often true...

"It is a curious thing, but perhaps those who are best suited to power are those who have never sought it. Those who have leadership thrust upon them, and take up the mantle because they must, and find to their own surprise that they wear it well."

Like I said about my wife. She doesn't really desire to lead I don't think. Meaning she isn't trying to get into leadership roles, just she has that "it" factor regarding leadership. It just is there and natural. 

When I was in management, I struggled with this role. I had to work hard at being a better leader, and read a few leadership books. You can work to become a better leader, but those just born with whatever it is they have that makes them a leader naturally will always be better at it. Your Jocko Willink types of the world. I could put in a decade's worth of work on leadership skills, and someone like him will just be better with no work, you know?


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

TheDudeLebowski said:


> Like I mentioned in the OP, a good leader never leads 100% of the time. Lest they become a tyrant.
> 
> Being a Harry Potter nerd, here's a Dumbledore quote that is often true...
> 
> ...


Yeah, I think it's just debatable what actually constitutes leading. They sometimes say that behind every great man is an even greater woman. And best leaders seem to be good at delegating. And that's not exactly the same as being a pro-active leader...In the end you just have to settle on a dynamic that is symbiotic and works for both parties. Sometimes it's enough to just provide emotional support to take some fo that burden off the other person.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> I can't imagine being with a man who allows _me_ to wear the pants. I could never respect a man like that.
> 
> Therefore, the obvious answer is that my hubby is the leader. :grin2:


I think my wife would say the same. She fully expects the man to lead. If he's not up to the task, he's not the man for her. That's probably the reason I was successful with her where so many others had failed.


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

*Re: Take mtoe to your leader.*



Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I think my wife would say the same. She fully expects the man to lead. If he's not up to the task, he's not the man for her. That's probably the reason I was successful with her where so many others had failed.


Do you think this is more common in women than men? 

I'm not trying to make assumptions, but I'm about too :wink2:
I believe some women that need the man to lead have dealt with a man baby, and perhaps see any man incapable of leading the family as a man child. Which is probably true.

It's not that I couldn't lead my family. Its that I recognize who is the better leader, and I also recognize who is the better follower. She does as well. She's not controlling at all. She's married to a bit of a wild horse obviously and let's me roam. She also knows I'm a work horse as well though and leans on me in this area. But she definitely isn't the best follower. Or rather, when she's not in the lead in certain areas, it stresses her out and she isn't at her best. Has nothing to do with being supportive because she totally is. We just shine in different areas in this aspect I guess.


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## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

*Re: Take mtoe to your leader.*



TheDudeLebowski said:


> Do you think this is more common in women than men?
> 
> I'm not trying to make assumptions, but I'm about too :wink2:
> I believe some women that need the man to lead have dealt with a man baby, and perhaps see any man incapable of leading the family as a man child. Which is probably true.
> ...


Well, the important thing is if it works for the two of you which it seems to quite nicely. You're lucky to have found each other.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

We each have our areas of expertise and competence, so that person usually takes the lead in those areas. However, I am more the visionary and planner, so I usually take the lead in big-picture areas. We do discuss these things, of course, and we each lend our valuable insights to the decision-making process.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> I can't imagine being with a man who allows _me_ to wear the pants. I could never respect a man like that.
> 
> Therefore, the obvious answer is that my hubby is the leader. :grin2:


Do you ever test or challenge that fact, to assure it stays that way, or are you submissive by default? 

I have to say, when in my mind I'm qualifying "Who wears the pants", it isn't surrounding the easy day to day stuff. It is who makes the big decisions that the other person is most definitely NOT going to like, will generally argue with ... but at the end of the day will concede to.

My answer is 'it depends'. Context is important. For the most part, I'd describe my wife and I as 'lone wolves' choosing to live together. We both highly value alone time and separateness, while also really enjoying the company of one another. 

There will be times when we have a disagreement, and my wife will say, "You just need to trust me." And generally, I do.

There are others where she explicitly is looking to me address an issue or challenge.

If you were to ask my wife, "Does your husband lead in your marriage?" I suspect she would bristle at that phrasing.

If you were to ask, "Does your husband prioritize making sure you and your family are well taken care of, feel loved, happy and secure?" She would smile and give an enthusiastic, "Yes."


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

Deejo said:


> Do you ever test or challenge that fact, to assure it stays that way, or are you submissive by default?
> 
> I have to say, when in my mind I'm qualifying "Who wears the pants", it isn't surrounding the easy day to day stuff. It is who makes the big decisions that the other person is most definitely NOT going to like, will generally argue with ... but at the end of the day will concede to.
> 
> ...


One would think this dynamic would create some head butting that is hard to overcome. Its good that you have found how your two puzzle pieces fit and work to create the big picture.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

I'd say me, and along with that, I recognize DW is better at some things than I am and that suits me.

She runs our social life by me, and I'm on board unless hard conflicts ie work or fishing (yes, I said that out loud), and she takes care of family birthdays, holidays, gift buying, but that's not all so that info isn't meant to say that's all she does.

I instigate getting big ticket items, and general doing things we need done, and any banking, arguing with insurance companies, taking the first shot from anyone or organization that wants something from us. 
Sometimes I do things without discussions but it works out mostly. 

We're both fiercely independent but fully know we can depend on each other even in our imperfections. 

If she's doing something with someone or some group and if any unpleasantness she knows I'll stand up and back her play, even if later in private I may say I may have done a couple things differently. 

Whenever we go to events or get togethers she knows if someone gets out of hand or needs a whupping I'll be out in front if necessary without hesitation. PS this is proven multiple times, especially when we lived in Texas. She has come and gotten me from the ER a couple or so times. (Not all my fault)

I'd like to think I've mellowed with age but can't stand rudeness in my fellow man, won't tolerate it.

(Can't take credit for that last statement, it's almost verbatim from "Lonesome Dove".) 

Clear as mud 😊😊😊. What a long answer!

I believe I'm in charge, but maybe I'm her trained monkey by design, I just roll with it. ❤❤


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

In our case its sort of strange. I'm more tolerant of a wide range of problems, so my wife is usually the "leader" because things matter more to her than they do to me. In any emergencies though I'm the leader. 

Often though it just comes down to her caring more than I do, so she makes the decisions.


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

Deejo said:


> Do you ever test or challenge that fact, to assure it stays that way, or are you submissive by default?


Here's how she comes across to me. The great thing is, she will slap me with some truth backhands if I'm wrong. Lol.

She doesn't have to test it. Her distaste for any sliver of manchild behavior is so strong, that any detection of such things will show themselves without her having to test anyone. 

I don't like to answer for others, but I'm like 99.99% sure I'm right on this one. Haha. Gotta love when someone doesn't compromise AT ALL on things important to them.


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

Another thing I'll point out as we talk about leadership, is how to be a good follower as I see it anyway. What makes you good is your ability to recognize and anticipate when it's time for you to step up and take control for a minute. There's a lot of pressure on the leader, and it's your job to find out what level of pressure they best operate under and work your ass off to keep it there. My wife thrives under pressure, but theres a balance. If there's no pressure at all, she's not nearly as precise and swift into action, and if there's too much pressure she becomes scatterbrained and frantic. I think this is true for most leaders. They will tell you a good follower is priceless. 

It's usually followers that **** on other followers I've noticed.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

InMyPrime said:


> One thing I forgot to mention is that some men probably find it a pretty big burden to be put into the role of constantly having to lead...
> Women will often say 'i feel much more comfortable if my husband is leading' but I wonder if anyone actually asked the husband if they actually like leading
> I think some kind of shared thing should work best IMO.


I think you probably misunderstand what leading actually means. It has nothing to do with sitting back and letting hubby shoulder everything. We are a team. He is the team lead. And at the risk of inciting all the atheists (lol) I believe men were designed to be the leader of the home. No one else on this forum is required to agree with me. But I am happy to have a husband who shares that belief, and I feel very fulfilled and important in my role as "helpmeet."

And because I am secure in my own marriage dynamic, I do not have to criticize people who do marriage differently.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Deejo said:


> Do you ever test or challenge that fact, to assure it stays that way, or are you submissive by default?
> 
> I have to say, when in my mind I'm qualifying "Who wears the pants", it isn't surrounding the easy day to day stuff. *It is who makes the big decisions that the other person is most definitely NOT going to like, will generally argue with ... but at the end of the day will concede to.*
> 
> ...



I think the bolded is how a lot of people see leadership this way, and especially that word they are so terrified of from Ephesians 5: submissive lol

But honestly, even in my first marriage, I cannot think of a single decision one of us made that the other was adamantly opposed to about anything big (except his unilateral decision not to have sex). Same with current hubby. I think that is because both times I tried to make sure I was with someone who shared my core values. I was off a bit with hubby #1 regarding intimacy, work ethic, etc. But the big value-driven choices? No one was being squashed or having to concede.

Yes, sometimes there are things like jobs that require a move that the other isn't wild about. In that case, I think that when a compatible couple look at the big picture in those situations, they can arrive at a choice that neither of them feels like they are "conceding" on in a negative sense. And some things you just don't even start. For example, when I thought I might need to look for other employment options, I didn't look in cities far away. My husband has older parents and a son from his previous marriage who lives here. For me to look somewhere like Atlanta or Dallas would have been selfish in the first place.


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## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

My wife is the leader. Her sisters have my back and make sure she doesn’t take TOO much advantage of me 🙂


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

TheDudeLebowski said:


> Here's how she comes across to me. The great thing is, she will slap me with some truth backhands if I'm wrong. Lol.
> 
> She doesn't have to test it. Her distaste for any sliver of manchild behavior is so strong, that any detection of such things will show themselves without her having to test anyone.
> 
> I don't like to answer for others, but I'm like 99.99% sure I'm right on this one. Haha. Gotta love when someone doesn't compromise AT ALL on things important to them.



As I've indicated elsewhere, my wife has been married 3 times previously. She described her first as her childhood friend. Thought that would translate to a good life partner. He was completely self-involved. After researching autism (we have 2 kids between us on the spectrum), she suspects hub #1 was also on the spectrum. To this day, he is unmarried, a workaholic, and filthy rich. Numbers 2 and 3 she both described as 'man children'. She believed marriage would change them. It did not. Number 2 had an immunodeficient disease that he never disclosed. She found out, when he had a seizure and ran his car into a wall. His family kept it from her as well. They were happy he found 'a caretaker'. Number 3 was a closet alcoholic. He's recovered, and is a great dad to their little girl, but has never really found his feet.

She told me not long after we were dating, that when her mother asked about me, she said, "He's a grown up, mom."

I know for certain, if my wife started to get the feeling that I was not forthright, open, committed, and willing to address the tough stuff that comes up in marriage, we'd be done. I don't say that with worry, or concern about staying in line. It's just simple fact. On the flip-side, she knows what my walk-aways are as well. We know we are both better together. We know we'd both be fine apart. We know that when it comes to long term success, respect trumps love.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Deejo said:


> As I've indicated elsewhere, my wife has been married 3 times previously. She described her first as her childhood friend. Thought that would translate to a good life partner. He was completely self-involved. After researching autism (we have 2 kids between us on the spectrum), she suspects hub #1 was also on the spectrum. To this day, he is unmarried, a workaholic, and filthy rich. Numbers 2 and 3 she both described as 'man children'. She believed marriage would change them. It did not. Number 2 had an immunodeficient disease that he never disclosed. She found out, when he had a seizure and ran his car into a wall. His family kept it from her as well. They were happy he found 'a caretaker'. Number 3 was a closet alcoholic. He's recovered, and is a great dad to their little girl, but has never really found his feet.
> 
> She told me not long after we were dating, that when her mother asked about me, she said, "He's a grown up, mom."
> 
> I know for certain, if my wife started to get the feeling that I was not forthright, open, committed, and willing to address the tough stuff that comes up in marriage, we'd be done. I don't say that with worry, or concern about staying in line. It's just simple fact. On the flip-side, she knows what my walk-aways are as well. We know we are both better together. We know we'd both be fine apart. We know that when it comes to long term success, respect trumps love.


I've often thought that if we mixed up you, Ragnar, Dude, and Matt Matt in a jar, it would turn out being a lot like my hubby


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

personofinterest said:


> I think you probably misunderstand what leading actually means. It has nothing to do with sitting back and letting hubby shoulder everything. We are a team. He is the team lead. And at the risk of inciting all the atheists (lol) I believe men were designed to be the leader of the home. No one else on this forum is required to agree with me. But I am happy to have a husband who shares that belief, and I feel very fulfilled and important in my role as "helpmeet."
> 
> 
> 
> And because I am secure in my own marriage dynamic, I do not have to criticize people who do marriage differently.



Don’t feel like everything i write must refer to you. I was actually thinking about my MIL; she often says how happy she is that her husband is ‘the rock’. I’m not sure he is as thrilled about it as she. But it’s not like he has a choice.

And no, I specifically explained that leading means different things to different people:

Welcome back from the dead keyboard warrior  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

InMyPrime said:


> Don’t feel like everything i write must refer to you. I was actually thinking about my MIL; she often says how happy she is that her husband is ‘the rock’. I’m not sure he is as thrilled about it as she. But it’s not like he has a choice.
> 
> And no, I specifically explained that leading means different things to different people:
> 
> ...


Yeah, I just realized I got a little triggered. As the de-facto forced leader in my first marriage, I think your comment about how does he feel about it hit a soft spot BECAUSE I was so stressed and uncomfortable HAVING to lead as the wife. I hated it. Because in my view of the world (the same world he supposedly grew up in), that was how it was "supposed" to be.

Sorry I came off so lectury.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Marriage is a team. There is no one leader of all things. 

There are areas in which one of us has the expertise so that person is the 'leader' but consults on big things with the other.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

The great thing about marriage is that the two people involved get to decide what their dynamic will be, without anyone outside that declaring an absolute "this is/is not how it is."

In my marriage, there absolutely is a leader, but we work as a team according to our strengths. Like I said earlier, that is unsettling to a contingent of the new form of feminism. BUt as a strong, higly intelligent, very content woman with her own agency, I love the way our marriage works.


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

personofinterest said:


> The great thing about marriage is that the two people involved get to decide what their dynamic will be, without anyone outside that declaring an absolute "this is/is not how it is."


But its painfully obvious you and your husband are doing it all wrong! 

*runs away as a shoe goes flying past my head


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

TheDudeLebowski said:


> But its painfully obvious you and your husband are doing it all wrong!
> 
> *runs away as a shoe goes flying past my head


That's okay. I mean, we are religious nuts. We don't even get housework right. man! We are like, totally, accountable for OUR habits and don't get to blame each other.

How intolerant and unwoke of us!!!!

Wow, I am feeling so energized I may just subjugate myself by making fried chicken from scratch tonight.


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

personofinterest said:


> Wow, I am feeling so energized I may just subjugate myself by making fried chicken from scratch tonight.


Sounds good, I can almost picture it. Please.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

TheDudeLebowski said:


> But its painfully obvious you and your husband are doing it all wrong!
> 
> *runs away as a shoe goes flying past my head


Do the car analogy again. I think that comes off much better :wink2:>


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

InMyPrime said:


> Do the car analogy again. I think that comes off much better :wink2:>


 I'm trying to remember which one you're talking about. 

Now I'm trying to come up with an analogy about times you can't remember an analogy.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

TheDudeLebowski said:


> I'm trying to remember which one you're talking about.
> 
> Now I'm trying to come up with an analogy about times you can't remember an analogy.




I remember something about getting a good deal on a car, is the same as buying a woman....Or having sex with a car is like trading women...I forgot. But I remember POI liked it a lot 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

InMyPrime said:


> I remember something about getting a good deal on a car, is the same as buying a woman....Or having sex with a car is like trading women...I forgot. But I remember POI liked it a lot
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Who knows man. Asking me "hey do you remember that one analogy you made?" Is like asking a McDonald's employee "hey, do you remember that cheeseburger you sold that one time?" 

I don't think I've ever realized this about myself until this exchange. I do use a lot of analogies. It's like my fastball. I need to work on my secondary pitches.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

InMyPrime said:


> TheDudeLebowski said:
> 
> 
> > I'm trying to remember which one you're talking about.
> ...


Lol I remember that!


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Thinking about "leader" again. 

Imagine person #1 enjoys eating at either restaurant A or B, but slightly perferes A. Person #2 likes B but dislikes A. If the couple goes to B, does that mean that person #2 was the leader because they did what they wanted?

So now if you have a relationship where a lot more things matter to #2 than to #1 is #2 the "leader" because they more often get what they want?


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

TheDudeLebowski said:


> Couples of past and present. If you were approached and asked "who's the leader here?" Is it you or your partner?
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


In our marriage, @Emerging Buddhist is DEFINITELY the leader. I wouldn't say we are DOM/sub but I very much enjoy it when he takes command, and one of his favorite statements is: "Lead, follow, or get outta the way." I follow. And the way I envision it, I am the world's greatest second in command. My job is support team, gathering all the info and intel into one place, keeping things in order so he can find it at his fingertips, and generally making his natural talents shine. His job is turning to me for recommendations, asking for a briefing of all the info I've gathered, recognizing when I'm the expert and delegating, and making the final decision. Then we execute together. 

Now, I know that sounds like a military operation (well...duh!) or like he just railroads all the decisions, but we do it like that because over the time that we dated, I learned I could trust two things: a) he does take everything into consideration (including me and my needs and wants), and b) I can trust his judgement. He's got good discernment, and honestly, I don't feel like being a power-struggle kind of couple. So I agree to be the follower, and he agrees to be the leader. We have an accord!


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

uhtred said:


> Thinking about "leader" again.
> 
> Imagine person #1 enjoys eating at either restaurant A or B, but slightly perferes A. Person #2 likes B but dislikes A. If the couple goes to B, does that mean that person #2 was the leader because they did what they wanted?
> 
> So now if you have a relationship where a lot more things matter to #2 than to #1 is #2 the "leader" because they more often get what they want?


Good leaders and good followers don't concern themselves with trivial nonsense. :smile2: 

But to answer your question, no. A well reasoned leader isn't going to put anyone, certainly not themselves, in a situation where they are set up for failure. In your specific example, the leader likes restaurant B anyway. If they really want to eat restaurant A and follower hates it, the leader will just go there solo when they have time and a craving for it. Then maybe pick up some takeout from restaurant B to bring home. Theres always a solution that works for everyone. A good leader will find it and make it happen. Also, a good follower recognizes the need to keep the leader in the best position possible to succeed. Part of being a good follower is making sure the leader is happy too you know.


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

Affaircare said:


> We have an accord!


A great vehicle. You will get 300k miles out of it with normal routine maintenance.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I agree - but, this can have the effect that the person who has a narrower range of acceptable things ends up controlling things.

For example if my wife and I go hiking, she "controls" where we go because she is more limited than me in how difficult / long a trail she can hike.

In general the more limited, more cautious, in some sense weaker person can end up with the most control. 







TheDudeLebowski said:


> Good leaders and good followers don't concern themselves with trivial nonsense. :smile2:
> 
> But to answer your question, no. A well reasoned leader isn't going to put anyone, certainly not themselves, in a situation where they are set up for failure. In your specific example, the leader likes restaurant B anyway. If they really want to eat restaurant A and follower hates it, the leader will just go there solo when they have time and a craving for it. Then maybe pick up some takeout from restaurant B to bring home. Theres always a solution that works for everyone. A good leader will find it and make it happen. Also, a good follower recognizes the need to keep the leader in the best position possible to succeed. Part of being a good follower is making sure the leader is happy too you know.


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

uhtred said:


> I agree - but, this can have the effect that the person who has a narrower range of acceptable things ends up controlling things.
> 
> For example if my wife and I go hiking, she "controls" where we go because she is more limited than me in how difficult / long a trail she can hike.
> 
> In general the more limited, more cautious, in some sense weaker person can end up with the most control.


Well now you're up my alley. Same situation, except I'm the follower overall, but I'm in the lead in outdoors situations. She doesn't like camping and the outdoors all that much. I could just not go, or I plan camping with a cabin for family trips. Then go solo and hike my ass off when I need to go. 

Again, trivial stuff here. If you can't work out the trivial, you either have a bad leader or bad follower in your party. I almost always lean towards the leader though as they set the entire tone and culture you want to have within your relationships.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

uhtred said:


> I agree - but, this can have the effect that the person who has a narrower range of acceptable things ends up controlling things.
> 
> For example if my wife and I go hiking, she "controls" where we go because she is more limited than me in how difficult / long a trail she can hike.
> 
> In general the more limited, more cautious, in some sense weaker person can end up with the most control.


This is a perfect illustration of exactly where a 'dynamic' comes into being. You're not leading if you are always complicit. You aren't leading if you're primary point of concern is whether or not every decision you make will meet with approval of your partner.

If you train your partner that if they disagree with what you want, and will always comply with what they want ... that is what they will do. Almost always.

I'm male, as long as I have a place to plant my ass in the evening, and my head at night, I don't much care what the house looks like. I have yielded dominion over how our home looks, to my wife, who revels in it, and is good at it. She still consults my input on paint, wallpaper, furnishings ... and I am in demand when it comes to moving furniture around 10 times or more for no discernible reason to me.

I have said 'No' to 2 choices she made in a sea of decorative choices, and she acquiesced. I honestly don't know if this scenario falls under the auspices of leadership, but I do know if the dynamic were, that I challenged her on every decorative decision she made and attempted to influence my will over hers ... consistently ... the air between us would turn to tigers.


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

Deejo said:


> This is a perfect illustration of exactly where a 'dynamic' comes into being. You're not leading if you are always complicit. You aren't leading if you're primary point of concern is whether or not every decision you make will meet with approval of your partner.
> 
> If you train your partner that if they disagree with what you want, and will always comply with what they want ... that is what they will do. Almost always.
> 
> ...



Excellent point on compromise which brings us back to tone and culture. Even though I'm in the lead when it comes to outdoors activities, what compromise looks like within our relationship has already been established by my wife. So even in times where I take up the mantel, I'm still following the example she has set. :smile2:


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

I can say, regarding the house:

She picked the colors, I don't really care, she does, so that's important to me.

I picked living room furniture, stuff she liked as well, and my lazy boy recliners, and TV. 

We have an extra long couch so I can stretch out if desired. 

She picked out dining room table, chandelier, other rooms' household furniture, drapes, etc.

I picked out my office/music room eqpt, obviously. I'm up to four guitars, amps, sound eqpt. Yay team.

She's actually picked everything else, except for the garage full of my tools. 

And the motorcycle. That's me.

And my clothes, boots, dress shoes, even socks. Those are me. Now, I have about 10 pair of shoes, she has well over 50. 

Except for t shirts etc, those just magically show up new time to time.

It's a balance.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

uhtred said:


> Thinking about "leader" again.
> 
> Imagine person #1 enjoys eating at either restaurant A or B, but slightly perferes A. Person #2 likes B but dislikes A. If the couple goes to B, does that mean that person #2 was the leader because they did what they wanted?
> 
> So now if you have a relationship where a lot more things matter to #2 than to #1 is #2 the "leader" because they more often get what they want?


 @uhtred, 

I was actually thinking about what you wrote here...it's a good question and good subtlety that many might miss. 

EB and I have actually been in this situation. I'm SUPER easy to please in the sense that I'm not food-sensitive, and I'm not picky, and I am open-minded enough to try any kind of cuisine, and thus, I like A and B but slightly prefer A. EB does have a few meal requirements due to a medical condition (no gall-bladder and thus, steak is right out...), so he likes B but can't eat at A. Now in our sitch he's the leader, so that's off of your example, but he doesn't always pick B just because "he gets what he wants." Our more regular dining out might be at B more often because he can eat there more comfortably and we want to both enjoy the experience, BUT he doesn't restrict me from eating at A, and in fact he will occasionally choose A just for my enjoyment and order something off the menu that he can eat. In addition, as a good leader, sometimes if I really voice that I WANT to go there, he'll encourage me to speak up and state my preference and take that into account...and sometimes he just says "Today you get to choose no matter where it is..." and delegate the choice. 

Leading doesn't mean "get your way" -- it means the one with responsibility to guide, direct, manage and teach in the sense of helping another grow as a person (not as in "teaching someone a lesson"). At least, that's IMHO.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

To throw in another monkey wrench:

Imagine A enjoys a wide range of sexual activities. B only wants to do a small number of things that they enjoy - and is much more LD than A. B is now "in charge" of the couple's sex life. Sex is what and when they want it. Its just a natural result of the differences in preferences.

Same for food as above. 

But then this can get deeply controlling. My wife's mother was extremely difficult to please, her father was very easy going. So she controlled everything. If he wanted to do something she didn't, she would claim that it would make her life bad in some way. 




Affaircare said:


> @uhtred,
> 
> I was actually thinking about what you wrote here...it's a good question and good subtlety that many might miss.
> 
> ...


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## hptessla (Jun 4, 2019)

Thinking back, initially my wife and I would constantly be "I don't care", "Whatever you want", etc. My view now is that over time she got irritated at that and simply began taking over decisions. I think part of our problem now is that we are at that point and she wants me to make decisions.

She is a middle child and I am the youngest in a large family. Neither of us ever were really the decisive one among our siblings. In my case I never got to, nor had to make a decision because my family structure was very top down (Depression Era parents). My older siblings were old enough at my birth that I simply did as they told me. On top of that my brother right next to me in age is a decision maker and the next brother up was constantly at war with him and the brother just above him. So I kind of fell in as an ally to my brother next in age. I generally don't have strong inclinations to take the lead, I do have strong inclinations to do what I deem important but those are mostly internal things. I used to be a runner, which is a solitary sport that is driven by competition against oneself.

My brother next to me in age is externally driven. My wife is externally driven. My older siblings are a mix but more externally than internally driven. There are different strengths and weaknesses to each model. For instance, my brother next to me in age played soccer, Captain of HS team; but once he stopped winning he lost interest. I'm 54 and I still go out and play whenever I can. I've been on winning and losing teams and couldn't care less at the end of a game other than if the guy I was covering scored or not. In certain situations at work I have been told I'm a leader. I don't like it because in general I don't think that a well run machine needs a leader. I responded that I am not a leader and was told that people listen to me and put stock in what I say.
Maybe. Maybe that's a form of leadership?

My 'hero' is WWII General George Marshall. I also liked **** Cheney...not his actions necessarily but the fact that he got things done without having to or wanting to be the center of attention. George Marshall could easily have been 'leader' and in command had he cared enough about it. Instead he advised where he would be best used and recommended who would be best in command.
So possibly I end up leading from behind?


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

uhtred said:


> In our case its sort of strange. I'm more tolerant of a wide range of problems, so my wife is usually the "leader" because things matter more to her than they do to me. In any emergencies though I'm the leader.
> 
> 
> 
> Often though it just comes down to her caring more than I do, so she makes the decisions.


This is how my marriage is, too. I am the default leader because I tend to have a stronger preference about the result than he does, and he is fine with that. 

It does sometimes feel like he doesn't "care" in a bad way though... like he's just meandering through life waiting for me to lead him to the next destination. There are times when I am tired... so tired.... that I really wish he would just take the reins and make a decision for us for once! 

But, this is our dynamic and it works for the most part. Whoever has the most invested in the outcome is who makes the decisions and 9/10 times that is me. 

Truly, he just wants to do whatever makes me happy, and even when I try to force him to lead, he is just cycling through choices trying to see which one I "secretly want". It can be crazy making. 



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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

I learned very early when dating my wife that she doesn’t really care about food, it’s just fuel to her. (Which is just as well because she could burn salad lol) If we were going out to dinner she often never even asked me where we were eating, it’s all the same to her.
When it comes to furniture I don’t give a damn as long as it’s comfortable. When I moved into my house I got a company that prepares houses for showing to decorate and furnish the first few rooms. When she moved in two and a half years ago I was going to do the same thing with a few more rooms but she insisted on picking out furniture herself. She also started decorating the empty rooms and I left her to pick whatever colors she wanted. 
Right now I’m on tam, my two year old is playing on the floor beside me. My wife is working in my gym and earlier today she was painting one of the numerous empty rooms in my house. I’m not completely idle, I run my main business from home and start work at three am. 
The only thing that she insists on is quality time together. Her son is playing soccer at his school and when he’s finished she’ll collect him and then it’s family time. And I don’t have any problems with that. 
Life is good. I don’t know whether I’m leading or following and I don’t really care.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I can see that. 

I don't know your situation, so not trying to project, but one problem is that if I lead and things go wrong my wife tends to view it as my "fault", while I don't feel the same about her. If she suggests a vacation destination that turns out to be miserable, that's fine, I know it wasn't intentional, and in general I'm OK with things not being quite right. 

But if I do, she doesn't exactly get angry, but I hear about it for a long time afterwards. 

She asks what I want, but usually that means she is waiting for me to say that I want the thing that she wants. 

This is just a tendency, not a huge problem so I don't want to make it sound worse than it is.



So - if he takes the reins and things don't go well, how do you react. How does he react if you make a plan and it ends badly. 






kag123 said:


> This is how my marriage is, too. I am the default leader because I tend to have a stronger preference about the result than he does, and he is fine with that.
> 
> It does sometimes feel like he doesn't "care" in a bad way though... like he's just meandering through life waiting for me to lead him to the next destination. There are times when I am tired... so tired.... that I really wish he would just take the reins and make a decision for us for once!
> 
> ...


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