# Frustrated and Depressed



## Frustrated_Hubs (Jun 23, 2018)

My wife, the love of my life, wants nothing to do with me. Since we discussed all the issues in our marriage 2 months ago (almost all intimacy related issues) we have had sex once, even then she had to be drunk. I suppose one and a half times really but her stopping me whenever I entered her doesn't really count.

The day after our talk she had a procedure done on her vagina that meant no sex for 6 weeks which is fair enough and to be honest the 6 weeks of new found flirting and teasing was great fun. I felt really happy that we had reconnected.

A day before the 6 weeks was up was when we finally had sex (for the first time in 13 months) and a few days after that she started her period. Period sex was always a no go even before our issues so that's fine, after the period however she felt she had thrush so didn't want to risk anything.

There was then a whole week of claiming to call the doctor but being unable to make an appointment before finally getting booked in. Once seen she then decides not to use the prescription she was given and just buy some Canisten. WTF, couldn't she have not just done that to begin with. Even then after getting the Canisten she has now decided she doesn't want to use it and wants to go back to swap it for what the doctor originally prescribed, but hasn't yet because apparently no pharmacies near us stock it.

Am I meant to believe that she is suffering with thrush and is just putting up with it because of all these complications? Yeah right, she has a solution in her handbag and wont even use it. Its more likely she doesn't have anything wrong and just doesn't want to be intimate with me. Its clear how eager she is to reignite the fire.

On top of that BJ's are now a thing of the past. Despite the fact that she used to seem (and often told me) to really enjoy giving me head she now claims that she has some kind of anxiety or fear of bodily fluids so she cannot perform fellacio any more. Yeah..... right. There was a time where would very rarely have sex without her giving some head first.

Its not like I don't reciprocate either. I have always gone down on her before sex, I like to make her cum before we get started with PiV as the lack of sex in our marriage has resulted in some instances of PE. Not all the time but on occasion, and I want to be sure she has gotten off at least once.

Even when she plays with my **** she appears disinterested, like its a 'duty wank' because she's my wife and she's supposed to. Yanking as hard and fast as she can so that I cum as quickly as possible to get it over with. That really hurts (emotionally) and i think I would sooner her not bother than do it out of some sort of sympathy or guilt, but its hard to turn down the little intimacy she offers. Especially when I'm craving it so much.

She tells me her sex drive is still there and that she 'wants' sex a few times a week, but if that's the case why is she throwing up all these walls to prevent it?

I've always had a higher sex drive than her, I would like sex 2-3 times a day in an ideal world. If her drive is really twice a week though I would be more than happy at that, wouldn't need to find a compromise. I fear though that her drive is much lower than she's letting on and she's afraid to admit it. Whenever I confront her she claims not though.

Out of the bedroom affection is there, teasing flirting and playing throughout the day. We always cuddle, walk holding hands, and tell each other we love one another. It just all falls away on her end once we get too close and she fears sex is coming. This is usually when the pity wanks come into play.

Its depressing me to the point that I find myself not wanting to do anything any more. Its all I can think about, I'm not some kind of sex craved monster or anything, but I am constantly wallowing in the despair resulting from the lack of a sexual connection. It's taking over my life and I hate it.

Once every 13 months isn't enough and I cannot sustain a sexless marriage any longer. I need a partner who wants me as much as I want them. I know I can't make her want me, and I can't induce a desire that isn't there, but I don't want to lose her either and break up our family. The problem is I see no other way to improve my sex life other than finding someone who wants one.

I have told my wife a few times how I feel, and that I cannot stay in a marriage without sex. She says she understands and that things will change, that she does want me and desire me and she will try harder. I feel that this is just lip service though because nothing really changes.

I don't know why I'm writing all this down, I know it won't change anything. Suppose I just need to vent or get it out in the open try and relieve the pressure I'm feeling. Apologies for the ranting.


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## 23cm (Dec 3, 2016)

Hate to say it, but sounds like she’s changed one lip service for another


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## Tatsuhiko (Jun 21, 2016)

Disengage. Start exercising for a few hours a day. Start dressing better and spending a lot of time out of the house. Continue to be friendly and cordial with her. Let her see what life is like without you.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

When someone goes to the *lengths* your wife has gone to avoid having sex with you at all costs, there's a reason for it.

And it usually involves someone else.

It's *easy* to 'play' with you, and flirt with you and hold hands with you and claim she loves you. That involves MINIMAL effort and MINIMAL physical contact. And it insures you don't leave her.

But when it gets down to the intensity of sharing intimacy and her body with you, she is NOT interested.

There's a reason for it.

Do a little snooping. You'll probably find some stuff you weren't prepared to find...


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## Frustrated_Hubs (Jun 23, 2018)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> When someone goes to the *lengths* your wife has gone to avoid having sex with you at all costs, there's a reason for it.
> 
> And it usually involves someone else.
> 
> ...


This is one of the biggest worries I have.

Sexually things havent been good for a long time. I used to bottle up how I was feeling about it all for so long, and after I finally opened up her attitude towards me improved a little. But that was never followed up with actions, just words.

Not sure if there is anyone else, I have free reign over her electronic devices, and her over mine. Over the past few years I have spent hours pouring over her messages on her phone and never once come across anything remotly worrying. Part of me wished that I had, as devistating as it would be at least it would give me an explaination.


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## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

Wow, these types of threads are soooo ****ing common!!

Our older men have failed to teach the younger men about the ways of the world. (Problem is, the older men don't know either)

Unfortunately, you need to put on the detectives hat to eliminate or confirm what @She'sStillGotIt suggests.


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## cc48kel (Apr 5, 2017)

I have heard this all before.. We get married thinking everything is great and then it all changes especially when it pertains to sex. You can try marriage counseling to see if this will help and to let her know how important a sexual relationship is. The good thing is there is still cuddling and hold-holding which some couples don't even have that.


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## Frustrated_Hubs (Jun 23, 2018)

OnTheFly said:


> Wow, these types of threads are soooo ****ing common!!
> 
> Our older men have failed to teach the younger men about the ways of the world. (Problem is, the older men don't know either)
> 
> Unfortunately, you need to put on the detectives hat to eliminate or confirm what @She'sStillGotIt suggests.


Onthefly I have to ask, what 'ways of the world' do you think I haven't been taught that have led to my situation?


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## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

Frustrated_Hubs said:


> Onthefly I have to ask, what 'ways of the world' do you think I haven't been taught that have led to my situation?


The nature of women.

A good starting place is anything by Dr. David Buss. Lotsa youtube and podcasts


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> When someone goes to the *lengths* your wife has gone to avoid having sex with you at all costs, there's a reason for it.
> 
> And it usually involves someone else.
> 
> ...


 @She'sStillGotIt, girl you are good. And you were first out of the gate. 

@OP, one of 2 things is happening:

1) @She'sStillGotIt is right and she is having an affair. And you have to figure out how to check out that possibility. Like have you actually looked at the phone bill for say the last 6 months, looked for a burner phone, and on and on. 

Or 2) She is not sexually attracted to you. Now in this case you could read all the BS online about how to get the attraction back, but frankly when a woman get to the point of loosing attraction, its done. 

You can try and yada, yada, but is she has lost that attraction, put a fork in it, your romantic relationship is done. All that remains is whether or not you are a big enough puss to put up with this for another second, or file for divorce on Monday....

Yeah, do the detective work, just to make sure. But either way, time to file for divorce...


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## His_Response (Jun 14, 2018)

Frustrated_Hubs said:


> My wife, the love of my life, wants nothing to do with me. Since we discussed all the issues in our marriage 2 months ago (almost all intimacy related issues) we have had sex once, even then she had to be drunk. I suppose one and a half times really but her stopping me whenever I entered her doesn't really count.
> 
> ...
> 
> I don't know why I'm writing all this down, I know it won't change anything. Suppose I just need to vent or get it out in the open try and relieve the pressure I'm feeling. Apologies for the ranting.


Thanks for taking the time to write it down, Frustrated.

I went through a long period of my marriage where my wife didn't desire sex, either. I'm not going to assume your wife is having an affair; we simply don't know that. I think you're already on the right track, just voicing your frustration. The fact that you've talked to her about this is good. My two cents... I'd see if I could find out the real cause of her avoiding sex. For my wife, it turned out to be a mixture of things... some were psychological, but in the end her issues turned out to be mostly chemical. (Thyroid issues and lacking testosterone.) Your description of her behavior doesn't mirror my experience, but I think talking to her to see if she is willing to find out what is the real blocker is a good idea. In my case, my wife's sex drive did indeed return after MANY years, and our sex life is amazing again. I'm not saying the same will happen for you, but it sounds to me like you really love her, so my only advice is not to give up... at least not yet.


-H.


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## Frustrated_Hubs (Jun 23, 2018)

His_Response said:


> Thanks for taking the time to write it down, Frustrated.
> 
> I went through a long period of my marriage where my wife didn't desire sex, either. I'm not going to assume your wife is having an affair; we simply don't know that. I think you're already on the right track, just voicing your frustration. The fact that you've talked to her about this is good. My two cents... I'd see if I could find out the real cause of her avoiding sex. For my wife, it turned out to be a mixture of things... some were psychological, but in the end her issues turned out to be mostly chemical. (Thyroid issues and lacking testosterone.) Your description of her behavior doesn't mirror my experience, but I think talking to her to see if she is willing to find out what is the real blocker is a good idea. In my case, my wife's sex drive did indeed return after MANY years, and our sex life is amazing again. I'm not saying the same will happen for you, but it sounds to me like you really love her, so my only advice is not to give up... at least not yet.
> 
> ...


I appreciate the positive spin H, I get why people around here are so quick to jump to the solution always being an affair. It is a marraige forum afterall, and I'd imagine a good number of people are here due to infedelity in their own relationships.

I really don't think that is the case though, like I said earlier I've been snooping loads, she isn't posessive of her phone at all, and I have all her passwords. I know she could have a burner, or another email address, or other ways of conducting illicit behaviour but I'm doubtful.

The issue being physical is something I hadn't considered, and something I will talk to her about.

I'm glad everything worked out good for you two in the end, it gives me hope.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Frustrated_Hubs said:


> I appreciate the positive spin H, I get why people around here are so quick to jump to the solution always being an affair. It is a marraige forum afterall, and I'd imagine a good number of people are here due to infedelity in their own relationships.
> 
> I really don't think that is the case though, like I said earlier I've been snooping loads, she isn't posessive of her phone at all, and I have all her passwords. I know she could have a burner, or another email address, or other ways of conducting illicit behaviour but I'm doubtful.
> 
> ...


People are so quick to think affair because it is one of two possibilities... Which you don't want to hear.

But it is what it is. 1) affair, 2) No attraction. That is it, that is what the issue is. 

If she is not having an affair, and be sure, then it is the attractions thing. 

I guess a third possibility is some type of medical issue, but at her age it would be rare and unlikely but not impossible. 

It sounds most like lack of attraction for whatever reason, and frankly it is very difficult to fix that.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Been there... she doesn't find you attractive any more and she doesn't want to be intimate with you. Reason? Who knows... sometime these things happen. People fall out of love. Whatever you ask, she will say it's a momentary thing, that she will try harder, etc. Not sure how old you are or if you have kids, but I would get out. Things are only going to get worse...

Or she could be having an affair, but I doubt it... :smile2:


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## Rasputin (Jul 26, 2015)

BluesPower said:


> Frustrated_Hubs said:
> 
> 
> > I appreciate the positive spin H, I get why people around here are so quick to jump to the solution always being an affair. It is a marraige forum afterall, and I'd imagine a good number of people are here due to infedelity in their own relationships.
> ...


Edited but quoted before the edit...I’m basically saying reality isn’t at all black and white. I’ve been around this planet enough to know that humans run the spectrum.


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## Steve2.0 (Dec 11, 2017)

She doesnt desire you physically/sexually. It seems like your OK with 13 months of no sex so she now knows she can withhold it for as long as possible. A lazy/quick handjob is the carrot-on-the-stick trick they use on donkeys to keep it plowing ahead without resistance.

Now, should she have desire for you? Are you attractive enough to leave the house today and have a decent chance of having sex with a stranger you meet on the street? If the answer is "no" then she knows you aren't going anywhere fast either.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Rasputin said:


> Every time I see your username come across a thread I roll my eyes. You’re a broken record. If a guy says his wife has been depressed lately you jump in with “She’s having an affair!! Divorce her now!” Unreal. Reality isn’t so black and white. You make endless assumptions that every single human being thinks and behaves exactly the same way and also has the exact same chemical balances. Depression, for one, throws a massive monkey wrench in your theories of “it’s one or the other”. Thyroid issues. Diet. Exercise. He!!, even weather, seasons and sunshine. Many times these marital issues may be due to infidelity and/or loss of attraction but your adamant posts proclaiming such simply are not helpful.


I must agree with this... it's not helpful to shout "affair" immediately. My wife has OCB (recurrent catastrophic thoughts), is on AD, has put a lot of weight on and she is now depressed because of that. To the point that she has retreated to the spare bedroom and she has told me she doesn't want to have sex anymore. All this after things were going much better. So, a bit of a shock for me. I even thought I might not have to execute my "escape plan" next year... but I'm digressing... 

I think the OP should keep talking to his wife. He will get the same answers so he might have to give her an ultimatum... which doesn't always work, but hey... at least he will know where he stands.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Steve2.0 said:


> Are you attractive enough to leave the house today and have a decent chance of having sex with a stranger you meet on the street?


It depends on the "stranger"... they might be even less attractive than him, so the chances are high... all is relative... :grin2:


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Rasputin said:


> Blues power, you’re a broken record. “She’s having and affair! Divorce her now!” just isn’t helpful nor thought through. IMO it’s lazy advice.


You may want to recheck the post you quoted, if you care to. Nowhere do it say to divorce. 

You are also welcome to check all my other post on another site and some here and you will find that I am totally correct about affairs when I call them. 

Have not missed one yet. I this case, I am not calling affair for sure, but I am saying that it in one of 2 things. 

Affair, maybe, or loss (or never had any) attraction. 

The first case is not worth trying to fix for most people, only a few WS are ever worthy of reconciliation. And yes in most cases it is best to divorce. 

The second, situation loss/lack of attraction is about the same odds. If a woman is not attracted to you, it can rarely be fixed. There is the odd chance that you could change behaviors and make a difference if those behaviors were stupid or completely out of line. You might have the slightest chance to change a woman's mind. 

But frankly, it is almost impossible. Sometimes it has nothing to do with you, it is about her. And sometimes, if you have been overly weak, and beta, there is really nothing you can do except move on to the next one and be better.

But I will absolutely say that if a woman does not want to have sex with you, for whatever reason, why would you want to stay. 

While I have never had this issue, it is all too common.

Now, if my posts bother you @Rasputin, I encourage you to not read them, just close your eyes until the next one comes up. 

That should help you a little bit...


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## dadstartingover (Oct 23, 2015)

Just because you're married doesn't mean she has to find you attractive. In fact, as history will tell you, marriage brings a level of comfort and boredom that kills the libido for many women. 

The only solution is to remove yourself from the equation. Yes, you need to better yourself. You need to ignore her and do your own thing. If done right, she will be attracted to you again... and then you probably won't care and will no longer find HER attractive. You will realize your value (and her lack of value). 

Your situation is far from abnormal.


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## Rasputin (Jul 26, 2015)

BluesPower said:


> Rasputin said:
> 
> 
> > Blues power, you’re a broken record. “She’s having and affair! Divorce her now!” just isn’t helpful nor thought through. IMO it’s lazy advice.
> ...


And there you go proclaiming your infallable judgment. You consistently offer two reasons for everyone’s ills....infidelity or loss of attraction. You make these judgments with next to no details. Life isn’t that black and white and you’re not omnipotent. Maybe chill out a little longer and get more details before telling the patient to cut off his arm when he has a scratch. I’m not saying you’re never right, I’m saying your sudden, rash judgment isn’t helpful to anyone.


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## Rasputin (Jul 26, 2015)

Deleted. Not worth it


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## His_Response (Jun 14, 2018)

Frustrated_Hubs said:


> I appreciate the positive spin H, I get why people around here are so quick to jump to the solution always being an affair. It is a marraige forum afterall, and I'd imagine a good number of people are here due to infedelity in their own relationships.
> 
> I really don't think that is the case though, like I said earlier I've been snooping loads, she isn't posessive of her phone at all, and I have all her passwords. I know she could have a burner, or another email address, or other ways of conducting illicit behaviour but I'm doubtful.
> 
> ...



If it helps at all, my wife and I talked about it quite a bit after it all happened (it was a loooong process... 14 years in total...), and during those years it wasn't that she found me unattractive... but sex itself was unattractive. She didn't want it at all, with anyone. Everything else in our life was going well, though... she still loved me, she still was affectionate, and deep inside she knew that what was happening was hurting me/us. She felt bad about it... in fact she told me that if I had gone to someone else for sex, she wouldn't have blamed me. (She even joked about it during those years... more than once she joked "oh, you should just take a lover", but I took that as a joke... no way was I going to lose her over this thing.) She later told me that her 'jokes' were partly serious... she would not have held it against me if I had found some relief. But I think, secretly, she's happy I stayed true to her.

I hope you two can figure things out. It was a long road for us, but I have never regretted the fact that I stayed. (And now... hooo, boy, I am REALLY glad I stayed... *grin*)


-H.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

His_Response said:


> If it helps at all, my wife and I talked about it quite a bit after it all happened (it was a loooong process... 14 years in total...), and during those years it wasn't that she found me unattractive... but sex itself was unattractive. She didn't want it at all, with anyone. Everything else in our life was going well, though... she still loved me, she still was affectionate, and deep inside she knew that what was happening was hurting me/us. She felt bad about it... in fact she told me that if I had gone to someone else for sex, she wouldn't have blamed me. (She even joked about it during those years... more than once she joked "oh, you should just take a lover", but I took that as a joke... no way was I going to lose her over this thing.) She later told me that her 'jokes' were partly serious... she would not have held it against me if I had found some relief. But I think, secretly, she's happy I stayed true to her.


Didn't know my wife had moved to Canada... :grin2:


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## His_Response (Jun 14, 2018)

In Absentia said:


> Didn't know my wife had moved to Canada... :grin2:


*LOL* Yes, I love that accent. Sorry, she's all mine now. 

Did you go through something similar, I.A.?

I haven't posted the whole, long story, as it's in the past now, and I wrote about it in an anonymous blog during that period, so I'm kind of 'talked out', if you get my drift. I'm happy to talk about it if it helps anyone else, though.

The one truth I've learned in all of this, is that everyone's situation is different. I had hundreds of people make suggestions over the years, everything from "you're an idiot, she's obviously cheating on you", to "hang in there, don't give up", and even a few offers of "I'd have sex with you, if you want". In every single instance, the advice they "knew" to be true simply didn't apply to my situation. Not one person had been in the exact same place as me.

I have to laugh when I see people passing judgement on what they are so certain are the 'facts'. 


-H.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Here is is again another sex thread that sums up lack of it as lack of attraction and drive. How much fire is there in the relationship otherwise? Any resentment?


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

His_Response said:


> Did you go through something similar, I.A.?


Very much so - exactly what you said - and I've kept going for over 25 years but it looks like we are at the end of our road. It's a real shame because I love her, but I can't live for the rest of my life with someone who is not prepared to try and solve her problems and fight for the marriage. Just when things were looking up. Not sure what happened. But I feel totally rejected...

What's your situation right now?


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## His_Response (Jun 14, 2018)

In Absentia said:


> Very much so - exactly what you said - and I've kept going for over 25 years but it looks like we are at the end of our road. It's a real shame because I love her, but I can't live for the rest of my life with someone who is not prepared to try and solve her problems and fight for the marriage. Just when things were looking up. Not sure what happened. But I feel totally rejected...
> 
> What's your situation right now?



Well, the REALLY short version is that our sex life completely recovered, and then in the last couple of years we started looking into our fantasies... and we've opened our marriage to allow occasional fun with others. A lot of people can't understand how we can allow for this. (It's working for us, however.) That part of it aside, however, our own sex life is wonderful again, and has been ever since we worked out what was causing my wife's lack of desire. I've always found my wife to be the most desirable woman in the world, and we're extremely compatible in bed. Things are even better than when we were newlyweds. (Then, I wasn't as experienced as I am now... and neither was she. Now we know each other so well that our private time is better than I can express in words.)

Very sorry that things haven't gotten better for you. I know the feeling. The up side of our situation was that my wife knew there was a problem, and was willing to work on it... and keep working on it. As it was, from the time we started 'working on it', to finding the solution, was about 7 years. (We had an initial 7 years where things slowed down a LOT, and I was trying to be the patient, understanding husband, until finally I decided we had to talk openly about it. That's when we started investigating, and then 7 years later we found the key. So... 14 years total of living in marriage where I felt ignored, sexually.) It was rough.

I have to give you major kudos for lasting so long. I don't know if I could have handled 25 years. Although I was determined that I would not simply walk away from an otherwise great marriage, over sex. But then, I didn't have to wait 25 years... 


-H.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Facts in hand, 13 months is a long time to not have sex with SO.....and not try to rekindle hot and heavy when medically possible to start up again.

Only you know what's best for you...that's everyone's said or unsaid comment in every post. 

Also, pls bear in mind to consider listening to some of the most experienced posters here......your circumstance is new to you but an old story. There are many very similar threads here and elsewhere, on serious forums.

All this doesn't make it easier for you, the hurt is always very personal and all know that. And it will hurt. But remember you can get through it.

Best,


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## C3156 (Jun 13, 2012)

You are not alone. Deadbedrooms


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Download the book MARRIED MAN SEX LIFE PRIMER. It has worked wonders for many folks. 

You need to give more history. How sex has been over the years, when did it go south, has t gone up and down, all at once. When it was good how often. 

Besides cheating, something physical, and adultery, childhood abuse is often a reason. Particularly if the decline started right after marriage or right after your first child. 

Have either of you experienced weight gain?

What does she do for work? Workplace affairs are the hardest to catch.


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## NJ2 (Mar 22, 2017)

FWIW- I was like your wife and avoided sex if i could at all costs for several years- in the end i thought he was having an affair (emotional for sure probs physical - i never got concrete proof) which led me to look at how i could improve myself and the relationship.

I went to counselling and took Wellbutrin for depression. It must be Wellbutrin and not a generic brand- 300mg seemed ideal. It has a side effect- like a viagra for women. I lost some weight, bought new clothes, did my hair , took up a new hobby ...and started enjoying physical touch again. It really was quite remarkable. I think things had changed chemically in me after a hysterectomy and aging in general. We did go to MC as well which helped us learn to meet each others needs and to reconnect. (If you are open to it-I found if i smoked a few puffs of a joint it put me in the mood instantaneously. I had not smoked before this. )

An interesting note- after several years I stopped taking Wellbutrin. I'm not sure why. I've been off it for 6 months or more and have gone right back to feeling unsexual. I hadnt realized that I had been making excuses a lot lately to avoid intimacy until this moment as I'm writing this...... H and I had started sleeping naked together and we both loved it. Lately I dont want to have any part of his body touching me when we go to bed-just let me sleep......so........having written this down I am off to the dr to have that prescription refilled!

Lack of sexual interest doesnt always mean a WW.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I find the fixation many people have on infidelity, to be a bit odd. 

Here’s what I mean by that. It often seems to imply that it’s ok for your partner to treat you badly, neglect and deprioritize you as long as they aren’t sleeping with someone else. 

Don’t get me wrong. I’m pro monogamy - very much so. But if my wife treated me like a marital Swiss Army knife - I’d rapidly and definitively address that with her. 

I’d gradually stop doing all those nice things I do for her. And replace them with nice things I would do for myself. 

You cannot fix a respect issue - which is what you have - by talking. You do have a shot at fixing it by showing some consistent self respect. Employ the golden rule. Stop treating her like gold, while she treats you like a multi-function hand tool.







Frustrated_Hubs said:


> This is one of the biggest worries I have.
> 
> Sexually things havent been good for a long time. I used to bottle up how I was feeling about it all for so long, and after I finally opened up her attitude towards me improved a little. But that was never followed up with actions, just words.
> 
> Not sure if there is anyone else, I have free reign over her electronic devices, and her over mine. Over the past few years I have spent hours pouring over her messages on her phone and never once come across anything remotly worrying. Part of me wished that I had, as devistating as it would be at least it would give me an explaination.


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## Frustrated_Hubs (Jun 23, 2018)

So a little background for those asking.

We're both mid 30s and married 9 years with an 8 yr old. I have another child from a previous relationship and she does not. First marriage for both of us.

Our sex life was good for years, up until 2 years ago. 2-3 times a week until that point where it dwindled to a stop.

I think she still has affection for me, we have always been very cuddly with one another and hold hands etc. I believe there is still a flame burning as the flirting and touching through the day is prevelant and gets very sexual, its just when it comes down to the act that things grind to a halt.

I think I'm good looking (but thats all subjective and I am a little bias), dont work out as often as I should but I'm not large by any means. As for pulling a stranger off the street I think that would depend on who the stranger is. I don't have many hobbies outside of the home, my family are very much the centre of my world.

She has gained some weight, but that makes no difference to me. She obviously doesn't like the extra tyre.

I work full time but she doesnt work, this has been the only other non-sexual cause of tension. She wont get back into the workplace.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

His_Response said:


> Well, the REALLY short version is that our sex life completely recovered, and then in the last couple of years we started looking into our fantasies... and we've opened our marriage to allow occasional fun with others. A lot of people can't understand how we can allow for this. (It's working for us, however.) That part of it aside, however, our own sex life is wonderful again, and has been ever since we worked out what was causing my wife's lack of desire. I've always found my wife to be the most desirable woman in the world, and we're extremely compatible in bed.  Things are even better than when we were newlyweds. (Then, I wasn't as experienced as I am now... and neither was she. Now we know each other so well that our private time is better than I can express in words.)
> 
> Very sorry that things haven't gotten better for you. I know the feeling. The up side of our situation was that my wife knew there was a problem, and was willing to work on it... and keep working on it. As it was, from the time we started 'working on it', to finding the solution, was about 7 years. (We had an initial 7 years where things slowed down a LOT, and I was trying to be the patient, understanding husband, until finally I decided we had to talk openly about it. That's when we started investigating, and then 7 years later we found the key. So... 14 years total of living in marriage where I felt ignored, sexually.) It was rough.
> 
> ...


thanks for that... I'm happy it worked for you. My wife knows there is a problem and she promised to work on it and then she backtracked (hence my escape plan)! She is on AD, she has no libido (she hasn't had any libido for the last 17 years) and the fact she is overweight makes her depressed. She is trying to lose weight (again) and let's see if it works this time. She hates her body so she doesn't want to have sex. She said we might resume when she has lost the weight... somehow, I'm a bit sceptical. I haven't been a perfect husband. I did put pressure on her in the past and this hasn't helped, it has in fact made things worse. But I'm still relatively young and I can't spend the rest of my life in a sexless marriage. My little daughter is going to uni next year, and that will be the time when I'll say goodbye (if things haven't improved). I have no plans to have sex with other women when I'm still here. It's not my style, even if she said I could... :smile2: Cheers and no more OT from me!


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## BobSimmons (Mar 2, 2013)

Tatsuhiko said:


> Disengage. Start exercising for a few hours a day. Start dressing better and spending a lot of time out of the house. Continue to be friendly and cordial with her. Let her see what life is like without you.


It's still life with him as he hasn't moved out. Even more allowing her more time to herself just means while the cats are away...

All these head games and little games. Why not be honest?

I don't think there's an affair, but when the OP starts off with "my wife wants nothing to do with me" then that's a problem.

Thing is you can't force this. Yapping about it incessantly only creates resentment and you'll get the opposite of what you're looking for.

She doesn't work. Your child is at school I assume so unless you've got a mega huge house, what is she doing with her extra time after house chores have been completed?

She doesn't want to work. She keeps you hooked by leading you on and like that lemming repeatedly walking into the glass door even though you know it's there, you keep getting excited thinking it's going to lead to something it never does.

The question is if this is it and she's not going to cede, then what are you going to do about it?


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## Frustrated_Hubs (Jun 23, 2018)

BobSimmons said:


> It's still life with him as he hasn't moved out. Even more allowing her more time to herself just means while the cats are away...
> 
> All these head games and little games. Why not be honest?
> 
> ...


She doesn't do much besides taking care of the house, she has an obsession with making sure everything is spotless (like a mild form of OCD) so she overdoes the cleaning quite a lot. I have often thought that she acts this way to justify not getting work (i.e. _'There's so much to do at home I wouldn't have time to do a job as well'_). I have told her that I would step up and do more around the home is she was working too, but apparently I wouldn't do things to her standards and she would have to redo a lot of it. We aren't rich, but my income alone is enough to sustain us. I want her to work more in improve our quality of life and her own self worth.

As to what I'm going to do about it I really don't know. I love this woman with all my soul, but at the same time there needs to be changes. 

I don't want to leave her, or want anyone else, but I realise if her attraction for me is gone then its gone and nothing I do will change that.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Rasputin said:


> And there you go proclaiming your infallable judgment. You consistently offer two reasons for everyone’s ills....infidelity or loss of attraction. You make these judgments with next to no details. Life isn’t that black and white and you’re not omnipotent. Maybe chill out a little longer and get more details before telling the patient to cut off his arm when he has a scratch. I’m not saying you’re never right, I’m saying your sudden, rash judgment isn’t helpful to anyone.


Again, I understand that you disagree. 

But facts are facts. In cases like this, short of some type of strange thyroid issue or something like that, it is always an affair or loss of attraction. 

And yes, many things about life are in fact black and white. 

Also, you are welcome to disagree and I am totally cool with it. The question is, why do you have such an issue with people that believe they are right, and say so. That might be a good question for your therapist...


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## Rasputin (Jul 26, 2015)

BluesPower said:


> The question is, why do you have such an issue with people that believe they are right, and say so. That might be a good question for your therapist...


I despise baseless arrogance, but that’s not the issue here. Your advice here is akin to a patient saying nothing more than “I have a headache” and the doc immediately schedules brain surgery. Yeah, affairs and loss of attraction are the big culprits, but WHY IS THAT? The causes for either are numerous. You never bother to discover the WHY of the problem and try to offer help, you simply make assumptions and tell them it’s hopeless. Not helpful. Yeah yeah, maybe it is hopeless. It often is, but ASSuming that every single time... go back a little on this thread to read the comment from one member that things got better. I have no doubts you told him it’s hopeless and to divorce.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Rasputin said:


> I despise baseless arrogance, but that’s not the issue here. Your advice here is akin to a patient saying nothing more than “I have a headache” and the doc immediately schedules brain surgery. Yeah, affairs and loss of attraction are the big culprits, but WHY IS THAT? The causes for either are numerous. You never bother to discover the WHY of the problem and try to offer help, you simply make assumptions and tell them it’s hopeless. Not helpful. Yeah yeah, maybe it is hopeless. It often is, but ASSuming that every single time... go back a little on this thread to read the comment from one member that things got better. I have no doubts you told him it’s hopeless and to divorce.


The dds a person’s spouse will cheat is 1-3. About thirty three percent of married people cheat. One of the biggest red flags when a wife cheats is that she cuts off her husband sexually. Further, eighty percent of the people cheated on never find out. That’s why it is recommended to find out if the wife is cheating. 

If he came here with the suspicion she was cheating the odds he was right would be over ninety percent. Unfortunately.

Something is wrong with this couple. The most like reason is cheating. It needs to be ruled out and then look to other reasons. Her behavior is not normal. 

He should google signs my wife is cheating and see how many red flags he comes up with. 

Also google infidelity statistics.


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## LostMama18 (May 28, 2018)

13 months is a long time. A LONG time. 

This seems like a tough one to figure out.

When I was married, if I was in a no sex funk I was also in a don’t touch me at all funk. It truly made my skin crawl at times for him to touch me. I wasn’t seeing anyone else though. 

It was never that he didn’t know what he was doing either. He knew exactly how to please me. 

I was always physically attracted to him-meaning it was never his physical appearance that bothered me. 

Underlying problems shut me down sexually. 

I remember a specific night, one of our last sex fights. I was standing in the kitchen cleaning up after supper. I’d worked that day, gotten the kids home from school, tended their sporting events, got home and cooked a meal, started laundry in the process, helped the kids with homework. The whole time all that was going on he sat in the living room drinking his beer. He comes up behind me and tried to kiss my neck and I wanted to vomit. I pulled away, he kept trying to touch. That went back and forth until I got loud and said would you just stop? 

He then began this massive tantrum about how I don’t show him any attention, he didn’t feel loved, or that I wanted him, etc. That tantrum made me not want it for weeks. 

The thing is we’d had several prior talks about how I took on everything. House, kids, everything. I got zero help from him. And at the end of the day I was supposed to be glad to get freaky in the sheets. I was dead a$$ tired. 

But i never made him suffer for 13 months. That’s just dirty. The longest he ever went without was 2 weeks and that’s only because of his child like tantrums (aside from the 6 week wait after childbirth). Once we agreed to divorce he wanted to continue to have those benefits and at that time I did shut it all the way down. 

There is something she’s hiding. I don’t know that it’s an affair since she is still being flirtatious and cuddling. That is a form of intimacy. 

This one is tough. I may have missed it but may I ask what the surgical procedure was for?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## seadoug105 (Jan 12, 2018)

Truth be told, I don't read everybody's posts/comments to You (the OP)... So this might already have been said...

Some times we are lost on the way we see our world through the prism of how we perceive our world. the problem is we don't always see the things that are right in front of our own two eyes. 

A while back I was reading a thread by a poster about how he has had it with his sexless marriage. His wife "thought" they had a "great marriage," they are in a good financial place, retired in their early 50s, and she is even planning their empty nest (1 kid still in high school) life together traveling the world. And yet she refuses him physical intimacy. He was struggling living the lie of a perfect marriage and after several years (10), of no sex, he made the decision regardless the cost he can't live the lie anymore. He no longer was in love with the woman he was married to, so he stuck around till the last kid graduated high school and he filed. 

After this man files, the Sha-Hit hits the fan. She is devastated. Everyone is surprised. Her mother is disappointed in her for depriving her husband intimacy... and eventually information trickles out it turns out that she had multiple affairs, mostly while he was deployed. It eventually comes out that she began holding out on him because she felt like she was cheating on the last man she had an affair with. Of course this shattered his view of his marriage... 

He never even thought it was possible. Sure they had great sex at times but he felt that over all she just wasn't that sexual... but she was, so much so that she had multiple affair. But that stopped when she felt like she was cheating on the OM... And now she is a broken and lonely woman... and he is standing tall and strong!

Not saying this is your situation, but this guy (Cromer is his ID - https://talkaboutmarriage.com/members/cromer.html ) never thought it was possible either.


Here is a link to that thread:
https://talkaboutmarriage.com/considering-divorce-separation/378298-getting-ready-drop-news.html


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Rasputin said:


> I despise baseless arrogance, but that’s not the issue here. Your advice here is akin to a patient saying nothing more than “I have a headache” and the doc immediately schedules brain surgery. Yeah, affairs and loss of attraction are the big culprits, but WHY IS THAT? The causes for either are numerous. You never bother to discover the WHY of the problem and try to offer help, you simply make assumptions and tell them it’s hopeless. Not helpful. Yeah yeah, maybe it is hopeless. It often is, but ASSuming that every single time... go back a little on this thread to read the comment from one member that things got better. I have no doubts you told him it’s hopeless and to divorce.


To both @Rasputin and @NobodySpecial....

Raspy... First, You have no idea is my arrogance is baseless or not. So, who is arrogant there? 

Second, there are very few exceptions to some basic rules, and in this case, short of some possible but none the less strange medical issues, or some type of undisclosed CSA or FOO issues, they probably apply to this situation. 

I won't restart the issues, or bring up the literally 3 to 5 cases out of thousands, where something changed for the better in cases like this. 

I will say, that I have know a lot of married women, some I slept with, some just friends. Of that group and all the standard posting sites, in almost every case, when they lost attraction to their husband, it was done. If the problem is that the H is too weak, too beta, or too much resentment for past wrongs, they just could not get that feeling back. 

Sometimes, they just did not know why the felt that way, and most of them felt that way before I was screwing them, so it was not my fault. 

A lot of men feel the same way about their wives, only I have no actual experience from their side just what they say. 

So I base my posts on practical experience and a lot of reading, and life experience. 

What I think is most important for people in these situations is complete honesty from people who have been around for a while and seen it first hand. This guys I think I fairly young. He can spend whatever time he wants to try and "Fix" the situation if he wants. That is def his right. 

But how many sad people do we know personally that have stayed in long term sexless marriages, or bad sex marriages and wasted their lives? 

Just one example for you: My GF's friends love her and think she is a great person so on one level they are super happy for her that we have such a great relationship and a great sexual relationship. But on the other hand, the envy her because they do not have that. They say it openly. I personally feel sorry for them, but you know, I am a one woman man these days, and I cannot help them. 

So that is my side, go with it what you will and good luck in life...


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

BluesPower said:


> To both @Rasputin and @NobodySpecial....



Why, on earth, did you mention me?


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Yes, imho, there's more to this picture....
OP, are there more facts to share?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

BluesPower said:


> Again, I understand that you disagree.
> 
> But facts are facts. In cases like this, short of some type of strange thyroid issue or something like that, it is always an affair or loss of attraction.
> 
> And yes, many things about life are in fact *black and white*.


It may be true. But it is also very simplistic. Most issues or problems, marital or otherwise, can be summed up in such simple terms. To say she has lost attraction to you to a man whose wife does not want sex is akin to restating the problem. How many people have sex with people they do not have attraction to? But that restatement adds no value. What it does not do is shine any light on how that loss came to be or whether or not said wife is at the point of no return or whether or not anything can be done about it. 

The sample of your experience, by definition, is a sample who HAD reached the point of no return. There really is no reason to think that sample experience has much bearing on any other individual marriage. We have seen people on this board come back from that, as I have in my life. Anyone's mileage may vary.


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## Frustrated_Hubs (Jun 23, 2018)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Yes, imho, there's more to this picture....
> OP, are there more facts to share?


There is one thing that plays on my mind at times, not sure if its me over thinking.

She lost her virginity at only 13, but it was consensual with another minor and it was something that she deeply regrets. We rarely talk about it but she did tell me when we discussed our sexual pasts years ago. I have often wondered whether our own daughter getting older (not a teen yet but at 8 shes now a girl and not just a baby) is bringing back memories and its causing a sexual disconnect.

Like I said it wasn't anything obusive so I'm unsure she would be impacted by it so much or I'm just clutching at straws for some kind of rationale.

Other than this unsure if anything else would help make sense of things (other than affair / loss of attraction). I will answer any questions though.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

It doesn't matter much whether you find the rationale unless it provides a focus for action to change things going forward. A rationale that is based on her past experience means that only she can make helpful changes , she has to want to, and she has to be willing to do the hard work (often long and painful) to overcome past trauma. The "good" news is that it takes you off the hook for failure - which ego-protective male HDs tend to prefer as an explanation. The bad news is that it takes all power and control over improvement away from you, and also robs you of motivation to improve yourself to become more attractive.

Maybe she was abused. Maybe she has PTSD. How does that help make your marriage better for you? Are you then going to ask her to "work on it"? Good luck. If she were motivated to work on things for your benefit, or to improve your marriage, she already would have done so. You may be correct in your analysis. Unfortunately, unless you are willing to defend boundaries, knowing the mechanism at work inside her head won't help you fix the problem.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Did you google the signs my wife is cheating? Do you have access to her phone and computer. Have you checked your bank accounts to see where she is spending time? Does she go to a gym or other places regularly? Have you checked her things to see if there are new clothes or sexy underwear for things you haven’t seen? Does she ever hide the screen to her computer, phone , tablet etc.? Does she go out without you/ with her girlfriends?

Do you have find my phone enabled on her phone? Can you check her goodie map locations? Mileage on her car?


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## SweetPetite (Jun 28, 2018)

My situation is kinda similar. I am feeling sad and lonely most of the time. My boyfriend and I have been together 3 years now, and living together for the past 6 months. Here's my problem: He is extremely controlling - has told me my job is to clean the house, do laundry, plan and cook meals, buy the groceries, and wash the dishes. I am to pay 1/2 of the bills. He said I am lucky that he doesn't charge me for rent. I am not allowed to talk to certain people and he wants my phone locator service on 100% of the time. He has also put security cameras on the outside of the house. He wants sex every single night and oral on him just about every single time. However, there is NO kissing involved and the rest of my body is completely ignored. No oral or foreplay on me. He will not try other positions, only doggy style. I did talk with him about my needs. He knows everything I would like and need in order to feel valued and loved. He never responded or tried to come to a compromise. I am at my wit's end and am seriously thinking about moving out. I can't change him and he is unwilling to see my side and consider my needs.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Frustrated_Hubs said:


> My wife, the love of my life, wants nothing to do with me. Since we discussed all the issues in our marriage 2 months ago (almost all intimacy related issues) we have had sex once, even then she had to be drunk. I suppose one and a half times really but her stopping me whenever I entered her doesn't really count.
> 
> The day after our talk she had a procedure done on her vagina that meant no sex for 6 weeks which is fair enough and to be honest the 6 weeks of new found flirting and teasing was great fun. I felt really happy that we had reconnected.
> 
> ...


Your thinking is self-centered, IMHO. A woman with medical issues in her genital area needs understanding, not pressure and skepticism that she is avoiding sex for some nefarious reason.


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## Frustrated_Hubs (Jun 23, 2018)

Chaparral said:


> Did you google the signs my wife is cheating? Do you have access to her phone and computer. Have you checked your bank accounts to see where she is spending time? Does she go to a gym or other places regularly? Have you checked her things to see if there are new clothes or sexy underwear for things you haven’t seen? Does she ever hide the screen to her computer, phone , tablet etc.? Does she go out without you/ with her girlfriends?
> 
> Do you have find my phone enabled on her phone? Can you check her goodie map locations? Mileage on her car?


I did google, and while there are 1 od 2 flags which would apply the bulk dont.

I have free reign over all electronic devices and have all her passwords, as she does mine. We have a joint bank account so its easy to monitor spending. No gym, or any other place really that she visits regularly. No to the new lingerie as well.

She does occasionally go out with girlfriends, but its only once every couple of months and normally for an event (birthdays etc..).

She dossn't drive and no I dont track her movements.


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## Frustrated_Hubs (Jun 23, 2018)

happiness27 said:


> Your thinking is self-centered, IMHO. A woman with medical issues in her genital area needs understanding, not pressure and skepticism that she is avoiding sex for some nefarious reason.


Yes she does and I have given her just that. But this issue is much larger than that.

She had abmornal cells discovered from a smear discovered and had to have a procedure to remove them. Its quite a common procedure with a 4-6 week recovery period. The procedure was in March.

This accounts for a small proportion of the past 2 years + wherein sexual intimacy has been sparce to say the least. I'm starting to believe that the procedure has now become her go to excuse to avoid sex as we are 3 months on and while complaining about thrush like symptoms she is doing nothing to rectify things.


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## Frustrated_Hubs (Jun 23, 2018)

SweetPetite said:


> My situation is kinda similar. I am feeling sad and lonely most of the time. My boyfriend and I have been together 3 years now, and living together for the past 6 months. Here's my problem: He is extremely controlling - has told me my job is to clean the house, do laundry, plan and cook meals, buy the groceries, and wash the dishes. I am to pay 1/2 of the bills. He said I am lucky that he doesn't charge me for rent. I am not allowed to talk to certain people and he wants my phone locator service on 100% of the time. He has also put security cameras on the outside of the house. He wants sex every single night and oral on him just about every single time. However, there is NO kissing involved and the rest of my body is completely ignored. No oral or foreplay on me. He will not try other positions, only doggy style. I did talk with him about my needs. He knows everything I would like and need in order to feel valued and loved. He never responded or tried to come to a compromise. I am at my wit's end and am seriously thinking about moving out. I can't change him and he is unwilling to see my side and consider my needs.


 @SweetPetite I'm so sorry for your situation, but it comes accross as a polar opposite of mine.

Your BF comes accross as a controlling arse in your post who is using you as a live in maid and sex toy. There appears to be very little love or affection from him. In my case the affection and tenderness is still there.

Has he always been this way? I know I am in no position to be giving relationship advice given my circumstances but your relationship sounds toxic and if I were in your shoes I would bolt.


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## seadoug105 (Jan 12, 2018)

Frustrated_Hubs said:


> She had abmornal cells discovered from a smear discovered and had to have a procedure to remove them.


So, is there a reason you describe it this way? Is this what you were told? The abnormal cells are most likely from HPV. And the procedure in this situation is to remove (in the case of HPV) genital warts....

Perhaps the reason she doesn't want to have sex is she feels guilty and doesn't want to give you the STD that appeared out of no where... 

Not sure how you are missing the fact that your wife most likely has an std...


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## Frustrated_Hubs (Jun 23, 2018)

seadoug105 said:


> So, is there a reason you describe it this way? Is this what you were told? The abnormal cells are most likely from HPV. And the procedure in this situation is to remove (in the case of HPV) genital warts....
> 
> Perhaps the reason she doesn't want to have sex is she feels guilty and doesn't want to give you the STD that appeared out of no where...
> 
> Not sure how you are missing the fact that your wife most likely has an std...


No, I was with her at all her appointments, shes a bit soft and needs support through these type of things.

The cells were pre-cancerous and were removed to prevent the possibility of cervical cancer developing.

The procedure is referred to as LLETZ and I was present for the procedure also.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Frustrated_Hubs said:


> No, I was with her at all her appointments, shes a bit soft and needs support through these type of things.
> 
> The cells were pre-cancerous and were removed to prevent the possibility of cervical cancer developing.
> 
> The procedure is referred to as LLETZ and I was present for the procedure also.


I am not saying that she did not have HPV before you were married, maybe she did. But HPV is what causes the pre cancerous cells. 

But understand, she could have got that from someone else while you were married. It is usually transmitted through sexual contact.

Do you understand what we are saying???


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## brooklynAnn (Jun 29, 2015)

So what we are saying is:

That HPV is the cause of cervical cell dysplasia. Which means that the cervical cells become pre-cancerous and if not treated by removing the cells thru cryo/freezing the area, then it can become cancerous. 

HPV can also cause gential warts. But some women get dysplasia instead of warts.

So, you might want to check on yourself and have a doc run a swab on you to ensure you are not carrying HPV. Because once it clears up on her, you can re infect her.

Unless, she had her entire cervice removed then, she does not need 6 weeks of no sex. Most times they just feeeze a small area. Think if it as a clock and they go in and freeze just the part that has the dysplasia. So, all you need is a few days of healing.

I am not saying your wife cheated but i dont know of any ither way people get HPV but thru sex....


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## Frustrated_Hubs (Jun 23, 2018)

BluesPower said:


> I am not saying that she did not have HPV before you were married, maybe she did. But HPV is what causes the pre cancerous cells.
> 
> But understand, she could have got that from someone else while you were married. It is usually transmitted through sexual contact.
> 
> Do you understand what we are saying???


Maybe it shows my medical ignorance, but I was never aware that HPV's were the sole cause of cervical cancer and/or precancerous cells.

I have always assumed (as with other cancers) that there are a multitude of ways they can develop, particularly with how the media reports on these things. Too much fruit, not enough fruit, looking left after 3pm...

Despite all the information and leaflets the Dr's gave us throughout the process, from initial consultation right through to procedure, HPV's were not mentioned once.

I'm not one to google medical conditions as often the results found are the worse end of the spectrum, and I would have thought that anything like an HPV would have been brought up at some point during the talks with Dr's.

Your comment has made me google the causes of precancerous cells and it does, as you pointed out, indicate that the majority (upwards of 99%) of cases are the result of HPV's as you state. Thank you for being so blunt with your reply (I think) because without that I wouldn't have given this a second thought.

I know I have been quite defensive about any kind of affair being the underlying cause or our marital woes, and this was primarily because of the lack of any type of evidence to indicate such (other than the lack of intimacy). Her affection to me through the day (out of the bedroom) has remained constant and she doesn't hide her phone away from me. I have never said that is wasn't a possibility though.

Having read up on the above in more detail in the past hour though has set alarm bells ringing. That said HPV's can be dormant for a very long time so in no way is this irrefutable proof of anything, and if there is / was something going on I would need to be 100% before confronting her with anything.

I am now at a loss as what to do going forward. I already have access to her phone, phone records, emails, etc and to date there hasn't been the slightest inclination of any goings-on. Shes taking our daughter out tomorrow for the day with a friend and her kid to a fair, I will now be gutting the house during this time to look for a burner or anything else I may have overlooked. If she's out for the day though she will likely have her burner with her if she has one.

So do you lot think I should broach this subject with her now and air my concerns, or hold off and look deeper into things? I don't want to tip my hand too early if anything is afoot, but at the same time if this is residual evidence of an older affair there may well be nothing further to find.


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## Frustrated_Hubs (Jun 23, 2018)

brooklynAnn said:


> Unless, she had her entire cervice removed then, she does not need 6 weeks of no sex. Most times they just feeeze a small area. Think if it as a clock and they go in and freeze just the part that has the dysplasia. So, all you need is a few days of healing.


Maybe the UK is different to the US, but they burnt the precancerous cells away rather than freeze them. The Dr. then recommended 6 weeks sex free to allow it time to heal properly.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Frustrated_Hubs said:


> My wife, the love of my life, wants nothing to do with me. Since we discussed all the issues in our marriage 2 months ago (almost all intimacy related issues) we have had sex once, even then she had to be drunk. I suppose one and a half times really but her stopping me whenever I entered her doesn't really count.
> 
> The day after our talk she had a procedure done on her vagina that meant no sex for 6 weeks which is fair enough and to be honest the 6 weeks of new found flirting and teasing was great fun. I felt really happy that we had reconnected.
> 
> ...


I don't agree at all with the notion that your wife is having an affair or that she is unattracted to you. Please get this information out of your head. 

As a woman responding to your post, I can tell you that if there was ever in my life something going on with my genital area, sex was the very last thing on my mind. Worry was the first thing on my mind. 

I think you sound like you have had some degree of understanding with her and there is a lot of openness she has given you - with you having all of the family devices and she doesn't drive and doesn't go out or work outside the home. Where is she going to have any opportunity to have sex with someone else - EVEN if she even had the desire to do so.

When a man gets centered around his sex drive as having a higher priority than his wife's health, there is going to be conflict. What I see happening is that you are centering on YOUR needs and this is preventing you from having a clear view of HER sense of well-being. Cancer is f-ing scary as hell. 

As for other types of infections in the genital area, I know I would avoid sex. Either a UTI or a yeast infection are painful and nothing is going to happen sexually until that gets cleared up. Couples can pass yeast infections back and forth - so BOTH people needed to be tested and treated.

As for BJs, or oral sex, no one is "entitled" to this. These activities are something couples give each other voluntarily IF THEY WANT TO. If I don't want to do oral on my husband, I damn sure am not going to do it. I do what I want sexually, not what I don't want. And neither should my husband. If he said he didn't like to do oral sex on me, I'd be like, "Okay." 

I can totally see how a woman who has scary stuff going on in her genital area would back off of wanting to have sexual body fluids in her mouth. A husband/man should respect that and quit with the conversations with buddies who are, like "Oh, man, she won't go down on you - ditch her!" Within a marriage love relationship, that's just selfish B.S. 

If you love this woman and want to stay married to her, don't play games with her like go off and do your own thing under the guise that she will get curious and hungry for you and finally want to give you sex like you want again. Playing game is immature. 

As for snooping on her, you are showing your own insecurities by doing this. You aren't seeing reality because you are caught up in your own viewpoint about sex and your own sexuality. To me, this is preventing you from seeing HER reality. 

For a woman having sex, she is on the receiving end of a penis, which can and often does leave tiny tears in the vagina, even when it is lubricated. Sometimes there is pelvic pain. I, personally, have had unexpected pelvic pain present itself during sex and long story short, ended up in a specialist's office and in a specialized physical therapy which involved TONS of questions about my sex life clear back to childhood, then a woman therapist massaging inside my vagina, biofeedback, more questions and more questions. It was mortifying. 

Had my husband not been understanding during that period of time and had, instead, been pressuring me about "So when are you going to give me sex again?" I'd have kicked his selfish butt into the next room. 

Although all of my devices and emails and everything is open to my husband, if I thought he was snooping on me when I gave him no reason to think that, I'd be, like, "Dude! What's gotten into you? I'm having medical issues!"

During the past three years, I gained weight - about 20lbs - while I worked through some physical therapy. It really, really bothered me. I felt unattractive and couldn't see how my husband kept from throwing up looking at me. I pulled myself out of it and went back to the gym when I finally felt better - and it took a few weeks to get the weight off. But now, I'm very critical looking at myself. There's just these head trips going on that make me feel bad about myself having sex. I need to know from my husband when he is making love with me that there is something that attracts him to me besides me being skinny and 20-something. When I'm seeing doctors and specialists to keep my health up (he does, too) to optimum and I exercise, get professional skin care and tend to my hair, dress, physical appearance and am engaged with my husband, I literally am doing everything I can to be all-in in our relationship. 

No one WANTS to have medical issues - and sure as heck no one wants those medical issues to be sexual. It's embarrassing! Plus, yeast infections can get passed back and forth between the two sex partners - so both people need to be treated (not having sex during the treatment) and get it cleared up. 90% of the population has been exposed to HPV by the time they reach age 50 - so all this hysteria over "she must be having an affair since HPV is the main cause of cervical..." is baseless hyperbole. I can totally understand her waffling on the medications. I mean, I've done that. Should I use this or should I use that? Will this go away on it's own or should I see a doctor? Oh, I read about the prescription and maybe I don't want to use that, maybe I should go with the over the counter medication. Like I said, if my husband was standing over me impatiently wanting sex, I'd probably not be as nice as your wife has been to you. That kind of pressure is NOT HELPFUL. 

UTIs are another thing that *some* women get frequently. Look at female anatomy and you can see why. They are painful and they require prevention and intervention protocols. I've been working with my doctor on a plethora of tweaking about my health. I take several hormones that are specifically compounded to match my bloodwork, exercise daily, eat a gluten-free (doctor ordered) whole food diet and spend 80% of my waking moments with my husband when he is not at work. I love him. I want to be healthy for me but also for him. I work my tail off to make sure my health is tended to. When my health is compromised, I am down about it. But as long as I am doing something about it, I expect him to not only be understanding but INTERESTED and encouraging.

All this is enough to make any woman feel protective of her genital area. Men do not NEED sex 2-3X/day or even 2-3X per week. They have a physical drive for sex and the more they give their attention to that drive, the more prevalent that becomes in their minds. But when their wife is struggling through physical issues, especially in the genital area, this is a true test of who you are as a spouse in a marriage. All kinds of stuff goes through our minds - the good, the bad and the ugly. But it comes down to either hanging in there and evolving as an unselfish, caring, encouraging partner during the tough times or cut and baling when the struggling spouse is less of a priority than getting your sexual needs met. No need to feel guilty about the decision or results - it is what it is. But I will say that these tough times really show us, both individually and as a couple, what we are truly made of.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

happiness27 said:


> I don't agree at all with the notion that your wife is having an affair or that she is unattracted to you. Please get this information out of your head.
> .
> .
> .
> ...


You may have missed this..."Once every 13 months isn't enough and I cannot sustain a sexless marriage any longer".

And may I say, who in the hell are you to tell any man or any person in the entire world how much sex they need. Oh, you must be god herself...

And to all woman that think like @happiness27, unless you have your husbands balls neatly tucked in your purse like @happiness27 has, or you need to have a weak man, than your husbands will end up cheating on you....

And @happiness27, how dare you declare what the sex needs are for the entire male population. 

You should be ashamed of yourself...


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

I expressed my opinion and its medically sound information. Nothing physically damaging is going to happen to a man who doesn't get sex. Ask the millions of single guys who do not have access to sex partners. You don't die. 

For the OP, his wife has health issues. She has not weighed in here with her version of the story. But the OP says she's otherwise loving. 

My perspective is from a woman's. But my husband and I talk openly about everything and he had a period of 8 mos as a single guy between marriages and not surprisingly, he didn't die.


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## Frustrated_Hubs (Jun 23, 2018)

happiness27 said:


> I don't agree at all with the notion that your wife is having an affair or that she is unattracted to you. Please get this information out of your head.
> 
> _Many thanks for taking the time to respond so thoroughly @happiness27, it truly is appreciated. It is hard to get such thoughts out of my head though, particularly with the responses given on this site. I appreciate that there will be some bias on a marriage website as most people sign up due to issues in their own relationships and people naturally compare other experiences to their own._
> 
> ...


_Thank you again for your post.

I get where you are coming from I really do, but our issues are over and above any current medical complications. The withholding of sex without any underlying cause (medical or otherwise) is in my opinion contrary to our commitment to one another as man and wife. Perhaps that makes me a selfish arse._


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

It sounds like it's been a time period well beyond medical issues being reasons to say no to intimacy. 

Only you know....if your confident now that medical issues are no longer an issue.....address now purely recognizing she doesn't want to have sex for other issue(s). 

You may have to be hard on her in laying things out. If you don't make a change be prepared to have to decide to live with it or not.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

happiness27 said:


> I expressed my opinion and its medically sound information. Nothing physically damaging is going to happen to a man who doesn't get sex. Ask the millions of single guys who do not have access to sex partners. You don't die.
> 
> For the OP, his wife has health issues. She has not weighed in here with her version of the story. But the OP says she's otherwise loving.
> 
> My perspective is from a woman's. But my husband and I talk openly about everything and he had a period of 8 mos as a single guy between marriages and not surprisingly, he didn't die.


His wife has not had sex for 13 MONTHS and it is not all health issues. 

But that is not my point. If I wrote that women's periods should only be 2 day and the rest of the *****ing was just BS. How would you and any other women in the world react? Be honest. 

Now you propose to say that men don't need sex more than once a week or something along those lines. 

Do you understand that as a woman, you have no right to say how much sex we need. Can you even understand how wrong and judgmental and just silly that is. 

Further, the rest of your post makes it sound like you keep your husbands balls in YOUR purse. 

How disrespectful is it for any person, male or female, to tell another human being how much or little they should want to have sex. 

Now, OP's wife, does not want to have sex with him. She has had some health issues, as far as he knows, but it has not been 13 months worth. 

There is something going on. Is it that she screwed around and caught HPV and does not want to give it to her husband? 

Or is it that she DOES NOT WANT TO HAVE SEX WITH HIM????


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## BarbedFenceRider (Mar 30, 2018)

Leaving it all aside and lets look to what OP wants in a marriage....I see : intimacy, coupling, defined roles (ie..Husband, Wife). Love, respect and communication.

I don't see any of that. But I do see infidelity. Maybe not an affair with another, but she is withholding herself from her supposed "mate"... https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fidelity

Maybe you are now the bearer of the title "roommate". Maybe she does have some medical or psychological disorder that is not being addressed. Either way, she isn't running to you for your help, understanding and commitment. And that IS cheating. Cheating you, the marriage and the idea of relationships and love.

I would take the time to write down everything you expect from a life-partner and not just a cuddly bank roller. And what you hope for the future. Go to the counselling and present her and the therapist this If she balks at this...You have your answer. 2 years too late.


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## Frustrated_Hubs (Jun 23, 2018)

Feeling down again so I thought I would post a little update. Last time I posted on here getting it all off my chest really helped to de-clutter my head.

Firstly thank you all for your posts so far, they have given me a lot of insight to the possible causes of the issues in my marriage and pushed me to read no end of articles on various potential candidates. The problem is that my W's attitude and behaviours kind of half fits each possible scenario but not one of them fully enough to be able to call it.

As far as an update she has finally applied the medication after 3 weeks total procrastinating (a week to get to see the Dr. and a further two to apply). She managed to drag this out long enough to allow her next period to start.

We are now onto our next issue of birth control. Obviously over the past 2 years this has not been an issue has she hasn't been taking any due to us not really needing any, but she brought up the subject when we aired everything out and thought it best to get back on the pill. I initially offered up a vasectomy (we're done with kids now, neither of us want more) but she didn't want me going through a medical procedure unnecessarily when all she would have to do is 'pop a pill'. 

She got the pill at the same time as the thrush treatment, but was told not to take them until her next period starts. So we are now here, her period has commenced and she now doesn't want to take the pill as she is concerned about the possible side effects (particularly the potential weight gain).

Internally I blew my lid at this, more dragging out and putting off medication. The only possible explanations I can see are the avoidance of sex or a phobia of medication in general. The thing is she suffers with terrible hay-fever and has no trouble downing the Fexofenadine daily, nor a paracetamol if a head ache kicks in so a phobia is doubtful.

I know this sounds like a repeat of my last post with the only difference being the type of medication, and that is my concern. To me this can only be a way to defer sex into the future.

I didn't kick off with her, but I sat her down and calmly said:

_"The problems you are having with taking the Pill can only go one of three ways. Either you take it and there is a slight risk of weight gain, you don't take it and there is a higher risk of an unwanted pregnancy, or you don't take it and continue to withhold sex and there is a 100% risk of losing me."_

Well she flipped, apparently I'm sex-mad, its all I think about. Was I too harsh in what I said, because I feel if anything I wasn't harsh enough. This is the first time I have mentioned anything sex related to her since we had sex 6 weeks after her procedure (a month ago now).

She is apparently just concerned over the weight gain, nothing more. She told me her period has just begun and she has 3-4 more days to get her head around it and I should be more patient. I only asked if she had taken it during a chat after work, this is the only time I have mentioned it.



BarbedFenceRider said:


> Leaving it all aside and lets look to what OP wants in a marriage....I see : intimacy, coupling, defined roles (ie..Husband, Wife). Love, respect and communication.


This is what I want from my W, and I'm sure that most men do too. The thing is outside of the bedroom we have all these things. That is what makes this so difficult for me to understand. If she was distant, unloving, or disrespectful in our day-to-day lives things would make so much more sense. I think you maybe right about my new title of _'Room-mate'_

I'm unsure on my next course of action, but action needs to be taken. As she says there are 3-4 days left of her period and I am not going to mention the pill any more until her period has finished, at which point I will ask again if she started taking it.

If she chooses not to would it be too big a jump to propose a temporary separation from one another, I'm not talking about going out on the pull for a bit of strange and wouldn't want her to do the same either, but a week or two completely apart from one another. Time to clear our heads and figure out what we want from each other and introspect our own faults. An opportunity for her to see what life would be like without me, and if this is the future she wants. No asking favours of one another or expecting either of us to do the things we normally do for each other.

Her mum lives less than 5 minutes from us and lives alone with spare room so a separation should be possible, my only concern would be explaining all this to the little one.

How do you even go about proposing a separation like this? Do you set ground rules up front, can you even set up any ground rules. I mean you are separating, albeit temporary, so would we have the right to impose any conditions?

My head's a mess :crying:


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

You know, you and several others, banged on me for my earlier posts. 

But what is it going to take for you to understand that she does not WANT to have sex with you, at all. 

She does not want duty sex, she wants NO sex. 

For her to go off on you for saying what you did is beyond the pale. 

Whatever the reason is, she is literally doing everything in her POWER to not have sex with you. 

What is the reason, who knows. But at some point you have to file for divorce. I already would have. 

Yeah I know that you have kids. But if she is not going to try, not going to go to a sex therapist, or anything else... What are you supposed to do. 

Brother I am sorry, but I really think that you are wasting your time. I wish there was some magic solution for this, but I don't see it...


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

Frustrated you have been more patient with your wife than any man I’ve ever met. 
You are going to have to face facts,your wife doesn’t want sex with you. Whether she wants sex with someone else is immaterial at this stage,she certainly doesn’t want it with you. 
What is the next excuse going to be and why do you even care.
In your shoes I would suggest an open marriage just to see what her reaction is. If she in any way agrees with this then it is clear that she is interested in sex but not with you. Either way you are not a monk and you don’t have to live like one.


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## Frustrated_Hubs (Jun 23, 2018)

BluesPower said:


> You know, you and several others, banged on me for my earlier posts.
> 
> _I know I did, and I also thanked you in a later post for your bluntness. It really did get me head out of my arse to start thinking beyond what can be fixed and more towards what future do I want._
> 
> ...


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## BarbedFenceRider (Mar 30, 2018)

I do know this...If you are really set upon separating, you NEED to realize that it will be for good and for all time. Problems cannot be worked out as a couple when you are not together. Kinda like a circle not fitting in a square hole thing. She is not responding as a normal person would. Medication or not, the respect for you is not there. 

You also mentioned that you think you have quality time with her outside the bedroom. And I can for sure say that isn't so. You practically have to cattle prod her into seeing a freakin' doctor. You are one the one side of a conversation with yourself. She has no imput. Then you are taking her info kibbles as fact concerning her period. Smoke and mirrors.

Whatever her deal is, cheating or mentally unhinged, you are not husband anymore. Only by title. As soon as you realize this, you can decide effectively what you want.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

I get you, I understand. 

I do want you to know that a lot of us, like me, have been through the divorce thing. I don't say it lightly. 

And I know that you love your wife, I loved mine, and while we did not have this problem, I do understand wanting to try everything.

But, I also want you to understand this: Myself, and EVERY OTHER person that I know or talked to, has never regretted divorcing too early, or doing what you had to do to get out of this type of situation. 

To a person, what they regretted was waiting so long.

So I get you.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

happiness27 said:


> I expressed my opinion and its medically sound information. Nothing physically damaging is going to happen to a man who doesn't get sex. Ask the millions of single guys who do not have access to sex partners. You don't die.
> 
> For the OP, his wife has health issues. She has not weighed in here with her version of the story. But the OP says she's otherwise loving.
> 
> My perspective is from a woman's. But my husband and I talk openly about everything and he had a period of 8 mos as a single guy between marriages and not surprisingly, he didn't die.


Here's a side note, I'm sorry....
Unless medical issues prevent, or there's already a mutually acceptable agreement between partners that "there's just sex once a month or as it's agreed", or similar....in a marriage it's not a surprise if H or W....gets cranky if there's a change and sexual encounters at drops off.

And for a man, it can be a "need for regular sex to stay at the top of my game mentally and physically helping me in my home life and work". 


Being married and told over and over no sex is like having a boat or motorcycle (or similar) and being forced to buy, pay for, care for, and train to use yet also told you can't ever use those items.

I'm NOT staying a W who a H loves as himself is a material item, but this is the best analogy I can think of at the moment

Mentally it WILL affect a H to be in this situation ie "no sex for you, you must sleep beside me while I'm almost nekkid etc but never touch me but you still must always love me, never say an unkind word, and be a great husband and father".

This can also physically affect a H, if this isn't recognized someone is missing the point. Note I'm not including a (single) man (person) in this example.

Best,


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

BluesPower said:


> His wife has not had sex for 13 MONTHS and it is not all health issues.
> 
> But that is not my point. If I wrote that women's periods should only be 2 day and the rest of the *****ing was just BS. How would you and any other women in the world react? Be honest.
> 
> ...


A period lasts longer than 2 days - a woman's cycle and her comfort level with having sex is totally up to her and has nothing to do with her husband's virility.

"keep your husbands balls in YOUR purse" is an old, misogynistic phrase that is intended to put a woman down for standing her ground on what she does or does not want and putting a man down for honoring a woman's preferences/choices. 

I am educated in human physiology and anatomy and can tell you with certainty that a man never NEEDS to have sex with anyone. How much a man WANTS to have sex is a different issue.

Being demanding regarding sex does not lead to more sex. THAT is disrespectful.

Making wild speculations about why a woman doesn't want to have sex is irresponsible and does not help the OP, it just incites paranoia that is unhelpful.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Here's a side note, I'm sorry....
> Unless medical issues prevent, or there's already a mutually acceptable agreement between partners that "there's just sex once a month or as it's agreed", or similar....in a marriage it's not a surprise if H or W....gets cranky if there's a change and sexual encounters at drops off.
> 
> And for a man, it can be a "need for regular sex to stay at the top of my game mentally and physically helping me in my home life and work".
> ...


Marriages go through various phases and events. Working through these is a part of being in a marriage relationship. 

I think your comparison to the motorcycle is telling. A woman is not property or a hole to use to relieve a man's stress, tension or to help him stay at the top of his game.

This particular woman may have some issues that talking with a professional would help her work through. Putting pressure on her to perform for her husband's gratification is nothing short of selfish. The interest of the husband should be focused on helping her in any way he can - not assuming that she is being cruel and deceiving. They need therapy to work this out both as individuals and as a couple. This wild speculation on here is irresponsible.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

I am a woman who has had reproductive and gynecological issues, and I fully agree that 13 months without sex is ridiculous. And what kind of ridiculous person makes decisions about what to give their spouse based on whether or not they will die without it????

OP, I don't know why your wife will not be intimate with you. But honestly, unless she is currently battling some horrible disease or something, the reason really doesn't matter. She is making the conscious decision NOT to meet your needs or care for you as a husband.

That is enough reason to be upset and to draw a line in the sand. You didn't get married to remain celibate. I would make a counseling appointment and tell her you will not have a celibate marriage. That isn't a threat. It is a boundary.

I have no patience with selfish shrews who control their vaginas like Fort Knox while their husbands suffer.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Stop talking to her about your relationship, OP. STOP.

You have allowed her to reduce your priority in her life without consequence. 

YOU CONTINUE TO ALLOW IT.

Every time you talk without taking action, it further erodes what little respect she has for you.

So...this is where you start:

If it is not about the kids, there is no conversation with her at all. Do not initiate or ask for sex. Do not show her any affection. If she happens to show you any, either act like it isn't happening or get up and walk away. Stop all acts of service. Allow her calls to you to go to voicemail, and only return the ones that involve children or something urgent. Stop all loving things you do just for her. ALL OF IT.

So...stop allowing her to be comfortable in your discomfort. Make sure she understands through your actions that you won't continue to provide a high (or even mediocre) level of service to her in the absence of her prioritizing you. 

When (because it will happen) she flips her lid, I want you to remember a few key statements:

"What am I not doing that you would like me to do?"

This triggers a conversation about needs.

---

"I'm sorry you feel that way."

Use this for the "you are sex crazed" bull****. State it, then walk away.

---

"I'm not doing this to you, I'm doing it for me."

Use this when she accuses you of tit-for-tat. Remember, you are doing this because you are done resenting yourself for being walked on by a less-than-stellar spouse.

---

"If you want more from me, you can start by doing more for me."

When she complains about the things you have stopped doing. 

---

"Conversations about improving our marriage are for couples who are committed to meeting each others needs within the marriage. Since this is clearly not the case, I have no interest in it."

Then walk away.

---

Look, man. I've been there. I spent 15 months making her a priority while getting next to nothing in return, all in an effort to improve our sex life.

It took 48 hours for her to lose her **** the first time I deprioritized her. I still use this tool. When she starts to get too busy, I simply do less for her and more for me. 

Remember, when you get the "I'm too tired" or "I just don't feel like it" excuses, that goes both ways. 

The first time my wife needed to vent and I held up my hand while telling her, "I just don't feel like listening", she went ballistic.

I then said, "You wouldn't want me to feel pressured to do something I don't want to do, would you?"

Stop allowing her to do this to you without consequence. 



Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

So, I will flip this around from my own marriage situation. My husband was a dive master at one point in his career and jumping out of airplanes can lead to some rough landings sometimes. Also, he was in two car wrecks that were not critical but they exacerbated his previous injuries.

Therefore, for a period of some years, sex was sometimes painful for him, although he kept that information to himself. I wasn't then aware of the jump injuries and was only aware of one car accident, which he characterized as minor and minimized his pain levels to me.

However, he was less interested in sex. From my standpoint, because he didn't share openly with me the extent of how he was feeling, I didn't know what the problem was. But I didn't go after him with "You don't love me because you know I have to have a certain amount of sex to function properly and you aren't giving that to me."

In our marriage, no means no and if one of us doesn't want to have sex, then that's the answer. 

I think this is where I'm driving when I say that in a marriage, there are phases that people may or may not go through where things happen and people may not be able to have sex as often.

I can tell you right now that if I was married to a man who was looking at his watch saying "Okay, you get 2 days for your period, then I'm going to be suspicious of you..." I'd kick his butt to the curb. My periods started with cramps for three days, bleeding for 5-7 days, then a week of a fairly good mood until the PMS kicked in again. I HATED IT far more than any man would hate it. 

Pain is a huge sex mood killer. And being married to a person encompasses a vast array of different ways of showing love and affection. If a man gets married primarily because he EXPECTS to have sex on a regular basis, I would say that man is not ready to be married and should not be married. 

I would really like to hear from the woman in this relationship.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

happiness27 said:


> A period lasts longer than 2 days - a woman's cycle and her comfort level with having sex is totally up to her and has nothing to do with her husband's virility.
> 
> "keep your husbands balls in YOUR purse" is an old, misogynistic phrase that is intended to put a woman down for standing her ground on what she does or does not want and putting a man down for honoring a woman's preferences/choices.
> 
> ...


Everything you said is absolutely true, but you omitted a couple of key factors.

*Needs in a marriage are not physiological needs, but are indeed emotional needs. They are the key to a symbiotic relationship. Neglect them only if you are okay with the relationship dying.

*Expecting sex is disrespectful, just as expecting a listening ear, acts of service, or venting is also disrespectful. Clarifying that expectations in general versus just relating to sex is an important distinction. 

*When you only reference men when addressing emotional needs, you appear to be misandrist.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

It's obvious posters have/are giving care and weight to W medical issues.

But it's also obvious there's more than medical issues in this mix. The circumstances may lean towards W is, yes is, using that as a go to excuse to cover up other real or perceived reasons she doesn't feel loving towards H. 

It leans that way to me and other posters as well from what I read. Just my humble opinion. 

And get real....unless medical or an agreement is in place on number of sexually encounters in a week/month etc. as I've mentioned, and W always says no to sex, a H needs to have sex as part of his relationship with W, or it WILL INDEED affect him mentally and physically. 

Christ it's obvious.


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## Frustrated_Hubs (Jun 23, 2018)

happiness27 said:


> This particular woman may have some issues that talking with a professional would help her work through. Putting pressure on her to perform for her husband's gratification is nothing short of selfish. The interest of the husband should be focused on helping her in any way he can - not assuming that she is being cruel and deceiving. They need therapy to work this out both as individuals and as a couple. This wild speculation on here is irresponsible.


I wasn't going to comment but....

The way you are portraying me is as though I am constantly hounding my wife for sexual gratification constantly pressuring her to bend to my whims.

This is most certainly not the case....

But to play devils advocate, by your logic here:



happiness27 said:


> I expressed my opinion and its medically sound information. Nothing physically damaging is going to happen to a man who doesn't get sex. Ask the millions of single guys who do not have access to sex partners. You don't die.


She won't be physically damaged from me hounding and pestering all the time and she won't die so its all good right, I should pester away right. Of course I shouldn't, the emotional impact would be devastating.

Its this same emotional hurt causing by the lack of intimacy from the supposed love of my life that's tearing me apart. Not pain from my balls exploding from the backing up.

I hope this makes sense and I don't sound like a ****. I don't mean to.


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## seadoug105 (Jan 12, 2018)

Frustrated_Hubs said:


> If she chooses not to would it be too big a jump to propose a temporary separation from one another...


Don't do that man! I get your intentions, but It's not in heard of for this to happen, with the full intention of showing the spouse what they might miss.... but it's not unheard of the spouse just going out and having a good ole time doing ALL THE THINGS she won't do in her marriage only, once the separation is over, they go right back to the way they were. And they feel no guilt because they were "seperated" and it was a seperation "you wanted".....

I still think that there is a possibility that she is having or has had an affair. You should really look at Cromer's thread I linked to before. He had NO CLUE.... he just knew all was good outside the bedroom but all was dead inside the bedroom. It turns out she was holding out (at least, at first) because she felt like she was cheating on her AP.

A few questions.... I'm sorry if they have been answered...
How was your sex life early on? 

If it was good, how soon did it change? Was it sudden?

If it was sudden, Was it around the birth of your? If so, does your child look anything like you? Now before you answer that think hard, do you honestly think he does.... not just your wife constantly telling you he does....

What else changed around the time she began actively avoiding sex? Were there people she suddenly started talking about or too just before? Is she still talking to them? If not does she ever mention them fondly or seem to miss them?



I'm not trying to be a dark force but this is a little bit extreme... especially since she was so adamant that you don't get a vasectomy.... then again if she had been cheating and god forbid your son might not be yours, then she might feel guilty if she OK'd you killing the chances of having a kid of your own.... especially since the big V is such a simplified process these days (mine was quick and easy).


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

And what's one result of effects on a H? Just read the threads here for the many Hs reaching out for advice and support, and one tragic result is getting divorced.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

A spouse who is committed to meeting needs within a marriage is willing to find alternate ways to meet the needs of the other.

Is this happening here?

No.

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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

"She is apparently just concerned over the weight gain, nothing more."

This is a HUGE issue to a woman. If the reply to that is "Oh, that doesn't matter to me, dear." - then once again, you are making everything about you and not listening to HER.

I really feel like this thread has devolved into speculation as the W's side of things is not revealed except through what the OP relates.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

happiness27 said:


> A period lasts longer than 2 days - a woman's cycle and her comfort level with having sex is totally up to her and has nothing to do with her husband's virility.
> 
> "keep your husbands balls in YOUR purse" is an old, misogynistic phrase that is intended to put a woman down for standing her ground on what she does or does not want and putting a man down for honoring a woman's preferences/choices.
> 
> ...


Just so you know, I love some of the things you write. 

But I could not disagree with you more on this. Yes a woman has a right to say no, always.

But unless she has some mental issue that she has not/will not work on, none of this is health related. They have not had regular sex for over 2 years. Now I get how you feel about a woman body and right to choose what she wants and does not want. 

But this is not a romantic, sexual marriage. She is avoiding sex and no amount of excuses of any kind will change that. 

He has the RIGHT to expect the woman that he is married to want to have sex. Yeah, she can say no, I get the. 

But why did she get married if the first place. Just to have kids and then never have sex again. 

You cannot possible believe that what she is doing is right. Do you? I mean, misogyny aside, you cannot believe it is right for a woman to deny her husband sex in a marriage for 2 years? 

I think he should file for divorce and find someone that enjoys sex.


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## Red Sonja (Sep 8, 2012)

happiness27 said:


> I really feel like this thread has devolved into speculation as the W's side of things is not revealed except through what the OP relates.


And *you* have been right in there contributing with *your own* speculation.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

happiness27 said:


> "She is apparently just concerned over the weight gain, nothing more."
> 
> This is a HUGE issue to a woman. If the reply to that is "Oh, that doesn't matter to me, dear." - then once again, you are making everything about you and not listening to HER.


Sure, it's a problem for many women. 

Let's say that doing work around the house is a problem for many men. When a woman has issues with her husband not doing his share of the housework, do we say "that's a problem for many men, you are making everything about you and not listening to HIM".

I don't think so.



happiness27 said:


> I really feel like this thread has devolved into speculation as the W's side of things is not revealed except through what the OP relates.


Of course. His side of the story is all we have to go on. We have to trust that he's not horribly misrepresenting her side. If he is, then the advice he's getting would be worthless. Kind of like lying to your therapist.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

BluesPower said:


> Just so you know, I love some of the things you write.
> 
> But I could not disagree with you more on this. Yes a woman has a right to say no, always.
> 
> ...


*Of course* a woman has an absolute right to choose what to do or not do with her body.

What she doesn't have a right to do is to require that her partner be happy with what she chooses.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

happiness27 said:


> So, I will flip this around from my own marriage situation. My husband was a dive master at one point in his career and jumping out of airplanes can lead to some rough landings sometimes. Also, he was in two car wrecks that were not critical but they exacerbated his previous injuries.
> 
> Therefore, for a period of some years, sex was sometimes painful for him, although he kept that information to himself. I wasn't then aware of the jump injuries and was only aware of one car accident, which he characterized as minor and minimized his pain levels to me.
> 
> ...


I'm not picking on you but continuing more on marriage topic and I feel for you and Hs injury related challenges. 

But in this example if (and I know it may be his career, and there's always a macho thing involved, and that's good/ok) if your H and you were communicating at levels best for a great marriage he would have shared his injury conditions with you and you would have known why sex dropped and you would have helped him at that time even more than I'm sure you did, even though you didn't fully have all the info at hand.

Good communication and true respect and caring for one's SO is most important in a good M. 

Not one is perfect but good intentions always show.

OPs W has shown by her actions that something beyond medical is reason for disregarding her relationship with H.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

I wonder why the two of you don't go to marriage counseling to find out the root of this disconnect. Why is she saying one thing and doing another?


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## Frustrated_Hubs (Jun 23, 2018)

seadoug105 said:


> Don't do that man! I get your intentions, but It's not in heard of for this to happen, with the full intention of showing the spouse what they might miss.... but it's not unheard of the spouse just going out and having a good ole time doing ALL THE THINGS she won't do in her marriage only, once the separation is over, they go right back to the way they were. And they feel no guilt because they were "seperated" and it was a seperation "you wanted".....
> 
> This is why I like this site, the mix of experiences means its the perfect place to show the flip side of a coin. Thank you, I hadn't thought of this and will think long and hard before I make any decisions.
> 
> ...


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## Frustrated_Hubs (Jun 23, 2018)

farsidejunky said:


> Stop talking to her about your relationship, OP. STOP.
> 
> You have allowed her to reduce your priority in her life without consequence.
> 
> ...


Is this what I've seen round here referred to as the 180? It seems an extreme way of getting my views accross, but I suppose its no different to the way I've been treated. Some real food for thought here.


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## Frustrated_Hubs (Jun 23, 2018)

happiness27 said:


> "She is apparently just concerned over the weight gain, nothing more."
> 
> This is a HUGE issue to a woman. If the reply to that is "Oh, that doesn't matter to me, dear." - then once again, you are making everything about you and not listening to HER.
> 
> I really feel like this thread has devolved into speculation as the W's side of things is not revealed except through what the OP relates.


Why would I just not gives the facts? What do I get to gain from withholding information othen than poor advice and a larger epeen?


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Frustrated_Hubs said:


> Is this what I've seen round here referred to as the 180? It seems an extreme way of getting my views accross, but I suppose its no different to the way I've been treated. Some real food for thought here.


No, but It could be considered a lite version of it. 

This is less commonly known as turning down the thermostat. 

It is more commonly known as commanding or earning respect (versus demanding it).

"Never make someone a priority when all you are to them is an option."

-Maya Angelou

I live by this statement, brother. 

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## Frustrated_Hubs (Jun 23, 2018)

NobodySpecial said:


> I wonder why the two of you don't go to marriage counseling to find out the root of this disconnect. Why is she saying one thing and doing another?


So do I Nobody and I'm in the damn relationship. Stupid male ego of mine telling me I don't need it. The more time I spend on this site the more I am realising my ego needs taking out back and shooting.


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## Frustrated_Hubs (Jun 23, 2018)

farsidejunky said:


> No, but It could be considered a lite version of it.
> 
> This is more commonly known as turning down the thermostat.
> 
> ...


See and I've always had this arse backwards. Trying to earn respect by caring and catering for my wife regardless of whether its reciprocated.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Frustrated_Hubs said:


> I wasn't going to comment but....
> 
> The way you are portraying me is as though I am constantly hounding my wife for sexual gratification constantly pressuring her to bend to my whims.
> 
> ...


OP this was a great post. I believe it's a sign you're getting more objective about the big picture in which you aren't 
a bad guy. And I don't believe you have all the weight of the troubles on your shoulders in this. You have clarified for some here in this (your) post.

You do have the right to an affectionate W in your life. This hopefully works out but if a different road is needed stand up and take it. It will hurt but be better for you and daughter in the long run.

Only you know the exact circumstances. Hang in there and good luck.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Frustrated_Hubs said:


> See and I've always had this arse backwards. Trying to earn respect by caring and catering for my wife regardless of whether its reciprocated.


I used to be that way. And to a large degree, I still am. 

The problem comes in two places.

One, when it is not reciprocated. This can lead to a loss of respect. Quality women subconsciously need their man to have high levels of self respect. How can a woman respect her man when he doesn't respect himself?

Two, when what is being asked leads you to think less of yourself. 

Here is a prime example. The catalyst to me coming to TAM was my wife bringing in a second dog (to make a total of four) without asking me if I was okay with it, while our marriage was completely devoid of sex and respect. 

Why should she ask? Because she expected me to help her with them. So, every time I helped her with the dogs (half of which I didn't want), it led to me resenting myself and blaming my wife for it.

Do you see why I told you that you are allowing it? You get to decide what happens to you. But to blame your wife for taking what you are willingly giving is just as ****ty as her denying sex.

It is time for you to stand up for you. 

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## Malaise (Aug 8, 2012)

Frustrated_Hubs said:


> See and I've always had this arse backwards. Trying to earn respect by caring and catering for my wife regardless of whether its reciprocated.


Caring and catering to your wife and receiving nothing in return: She knows how she treats you and sees you not seem to care. Why should she change?


Why should she respect someone who won't stand up for himself?


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

happiness27 said:


> "She is apparently just concerned over the weight gain, nothing more."
> 
> This is a HUGE issue to a woman. If the reply to that is "Oh, that doesn't matter to me, dear." - then once again, you are making everything about you and not listening to HER.
> 
> I really feel like this thread has devolved into speculation as the W's side of things is not revealed except through what the OP relates.


Face it, pls be truthful...a W will not go without having sex for even six months with her H if she cares for him, because of just weight gain, when her H has been DEMONSTRATING his care, love, and respect for her. 

A H sees his W as she was, is, and will be.....all at once when he looks at her in his love for her. There's nothing here that indicates H hasn't tried to always show his affection for her. I'm sure OP isn't perfect, none of us are (Hs or Ws) but the big picture shows something more than go to excuses is in the mix here.

Weight gain can be a huge thing for SOME women, always (imho) an image issue in some fashion or another....but odds are in no way would be the entire reason this couple hasn't had sex for 13 months. Or even six months....let's give the first 7 months away as medical issues.

I'm fortunate to be married over 30 years to a fine and loving W, kids, grandchildren, etc. btw.

Only OP knows all, but the information shared is he's conveying he loves his W and this emotional and physical separation between he and W is something HE'S recognized as destructive and wants to fix.


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## Frustrated_Hubs (Jun 23, 2018)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> OP this was a great post. I believe it's a sign you're getting more objective about the big picture in which you aren't
> a bad guy. And I don't believe you have all the weight of the troubles on your shoulders in this. You have clarified for some here in this (your) post.
> 
> You do have the right to an affectionate W in your life. This hopefully works out but if a different road is needed stand up and take it. It will hurt but be better for you and daughter in the long run.
> ...


Thank you Ragnar.

I'm all too aware of the most likely outcome in this situation, and being here on this forum has brought me a lot of clarity in this regard.

I want to make things right, but I now know that I can't. Thats on her.

If our relationship cannot improve and we fail to reconnect then a line will have to be drawn under it all. I reaslise and I'm willing to do this, but I will not be hasty in it. I know some think its best to just get it over with, but I have to explore as many options as I can first. Our relationship was great and was definately worth fighting for if theres any hope of getting it back.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

That sounds like a good plan. Good luck to all!

Best,


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## Frustrated_Hubs (Jun 23, 2018)

farsidejunky said:


> Why should she ask? Because she expected me to help her with them. So, every time I helped her with the dogs (half of which I didn't want), it led to me resenting myself and blaming my wife for it.


Without the dog reference this is exactly how I'm coming to feel. It isn't my W I resent, its me for being so complacant for so long.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Frustrated_Hubs said:


> Thank you Ragnar.
> 
> I'm all too aware of the most likely outcome in this situation, and being here on this forum has brought me a lot of clarity in this regard.
> 
> ...


I gave a six month deadline for improvement. Much shorter and it does not give her much time to move to you. Much longer and you are dragging along the corpse of the marriage. 

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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Frustrated_Hubs said:


> Without the dog reference this is exactly how I'm coming to feel. It isn't my W I resent, its me for being so complacant for so long.


Good, brother. Very good.

Now you are getting somewhere. Those are what a wise man on this forum once referred to as "Number 3's". It is a cryptic reference to Anthony DeMello's "Awareness" when he discusses a type of healthy selfishness. 

1: when we do things to please ourselves.

2: when we do things to please others.

3: when we do things to avoid feeling bad.

Because Number 3's are driven by guilt rather than love, it leads us to tie expectation to them, which leads to resentment when the expectations are not met. 

Number 3's will destroy a relationship.

Stop doing the things that lead to you resenting you. Then you will TRULY see what this relationship will become: thriving or dying. 

Above all: develop a healthy love for yourself first and foremost. Through that, you will naturally draw people into your life who share those values, and eventually eject those who do not.

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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Frustrated_Hubs said:


> So do I Nobody and I'm in the damn relationship. Stupid male ego of mine telling me I don't need it. The more time I spend on this site the more I am realising my ego needs taking out back and shooting.


No one here can tell you what is going on in your wife's mind. She may not even be fully cogniscant of it. Do you want to figure it out? Or do you want to put your foot down? The latter will only end in divorce. Is that ok?


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> No one here can tell you what is going on in your wife's mind. She may not even be fully cogniscant of it. Do you want to figure it out? Or do you want to put your foot down? The latter will only end in divorce. Is that ok?


Nobody, my marriage is an example of them not being mutually exclusive. 

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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

@MEM2020

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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

farsidejunky said:


> Nobody, my marriage is an example of them not being mutually exclusive.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


Yes. This is possible. I just don't understand why people are so reticent to get help with these complicated feelings. It is clearly not so simple as more sex. We have seen time and time again how duty sex is just as bad, and even WORSE.... Feelings are complicated.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Frustrated_Hubs said:


> See and I've always had this arse backwards. Trying to earn respect by caring and catering for my wife regardless of whether its reciprocated.


Let's hear from your wife. See if she would be interested in responding to your posts on this thread. Can you please ask her? I'm interested in her take on this.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

personofinterest said:


> I am a woman who has had reproductive and gynecological issues, and I fully agree that 13 months without sex is ridiculous. And what kind of ridiculous person makes decisions about what to give their spouse based on whether or not they will die without it????
> 
> OP, I don't know why your wife will not be intimate with you. But honestly, unless she is currently battling some horrible disease or something, the reason really doesn't matter. She is making the conscious decision NOT to meet your needs or care for you as a husband.
> 
> ...


No, we don't know the wife's version of this conversation. If the OP would ask her to read the thread and ask if she has any input, that would be helpful, I'm sure.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Frustrated_Hubs said:


> Thank you Ragnar.
> 
> I'm all too aware of the most likely outcome in this situation, and being here on this forum has brought me a lot of clarity in this regard.
> 
> ...


Quote:
Originally Posted by happiness27 View Post
"She is apparently just concerned over the weight gain, nothing more."

This is a HUGE issue to a woman. If the reply to that is "Oh, that doesn't matter to me, dear." - then once again, you are making everything about you and not listening to HER.

I really feel like this thread has devolved into speculation as the W's side of things is not revealed except through what the OP relates.
Why would I just not gives the facts? What do I get to gain from withholding information othen than poor advice and a larger epeen?"

You are only giving us YOUR perspective of thoughts, feelings, events - the rest is speculation, which is unfair to your spouse and, in actuality, also to you.

Has your wife seen this discussion thread? If so, would she like to weigh in?

If not, why not? 

I feel at this point that there is a lot of commentary from you about your wife without hearing her version of what is going on. 

That hardly seems fair, especially in light of some of the comments that are accusing her - without ever hearing HER version of the facts - of withholding sex for a variety of nefarious reasons - and you not defending her or standing up for her...but, instead continuing to chime in on how she is doing you wrong and allowing negative responses about her to stand without having her back. You have allowed others on here to put your wife down and say negative things about her. 

I don't think your wife is the problem. A man who lets a bunch of strangers on a forum put his wife down without defending her doesn't respect his wife.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

In fairness, well over 95% of the threads on this site are only one of a couple posting. 

Are you suggesting that no advice should be dispensed without both spouses being present?
@Frustrated_Hubs, it *is not* your responsibility to find out why she has decided to end your marital sex life. That rests on her shoulders. It *is* your responsibility to provide the most open and transparent environment possible so she feels safe to disclose her reasons. Then it is up to you to decide your next move.

In the interim, you should not view her refusal as anything more than incompatibility in your relationship, to either be accepted or rejected by you.



happiness27 said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by happiness27 View Post
> "She is apparently just concerned over the weight gain, nothing more."
> 
> ...


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Are you suggesting that no advice should be dispensed without both spouses being present?


Yes, I am. My husband sees all of my postings. He is free to chime in on any of them. Transparency - openness - honesty...the foundation, the cornerstone of every relationship.

People are dispensing advice based on only one side, one spouse's version. That is not fair to the other spouse. 

All of us know that when a story is told that the story is told in the most favorable light to the storyteller.
@Frustrated_Hubs, it is not your responsibility to find out why she has decided to end your marital sex life."

Yes, it is his responsibility. And, FWIW, she hasn't "ended" it - that's the OP's characterization of what is going on with her. Without her input, we only have half a story.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

happiness27 said:


> Yes, I am. My husband sees all of my postings. He is free to chime in on any of them. Transparency - openness - honesty...the foundation, the cornerstone of every relationship.


I liked your post because I agree with the above premise.

However, the flip side is that often times a poster needs a "safe place" to be able to share and gain some insight from those who have experienced a similar situation. This is especially true when transparency has stopped within the relationship.

Additionally, many who have always embraced transparency have no idea how far some will go to prevent it at all costs. Transparency requires true emotional intimacy, and many damaged people would rather abuse their partner than even explore the possibility of intimacy. This is where forums such as this one are invaluable. I (and I suspect you as well) would argue that once transparency is gone, the relationship is likely on it's death bed. However, time and time again we see relationships that never had any semblance of transparency from the very start.

As for the lack of respect, I have seen once or twice where someone has said something disrespectful about his wife, and even that was more referencing the general rather than the specific. Additionally, I know I have had disrespectful thoughts and words about my wife when resentment was running high. This does not excuse it, but it certainly explains it.

More interesting to me is why you are reacting so strongly to this thread. You clearly see the OP's wife as a victim. What are you seeing that leads you to believe such? Help me understand.

ETA: I see you added the additional part about his responsibility to find out why. How can he possibly be held accountable for that which he does not own? Her reasons are hers.


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## MaiChi (Jun 20, 2018)

I Think men are not like us. They always start by blaming their wives as the first port of call. There is never introspection or brain-storming with friends to find if there are other options. 

Is it not fascinating that the majority of clients for prostitutes in most countries are married men? Is this a statement about wives or about husbands? Prostitutes clearly have the same equipment as wives, so how come one group has sex relentlessly and the other is way below par? Sociologists and Psychologists should be getting numerous PhDs from this study. I am not entirely convinced that its us at fault in the homes. I think there are issues that men need to answer questions about. 

My view is that most wives are very keen to have sex with their husbands, but husbands spoil it by having several inappropriate attitudes which they are not aware of but which kill it for the wives. I say this because when I got married my gran told me numerous times that if I do not look after sex, I will kill my marriage. My older friends told me the same, My cousin told me the same. I assume all these women are looking after their sex lives. My grand parents are in their 80s now but I know they cuddle a lot. Whether they still have sex I do not know. My gran still tells me to "keep him happy". I know what she means and I do and I enjoy doing. 

Sex in the home is the perpetual battle ground for many couples, but Why? Why cant couples just have nice sex regularly and de-stress each other? Sex also cures a range of health conditions and should be regarded as a health AID. Not many medicines are that nice to take. The more regular the sex in the home, the more you body needs it. The converse may be true, but I do not know. I just know I get frustrated if it is not there. Why then would I ration it to very low levels. 

Girls, is it us or them?


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

If you look at the macro of each situation rather than the micro, your solution will likely end up working well for someone else besides you.



MaiChi said:


> I Think men are not like us. They always start by blaming their wives as the first port of call. There is never introspection or brain-storming with friends to find if there are other options.
> 
> Is it not fascinating that the majority of clients for prostitutes in most countries are married men? Is this a statement about wives or about husbands? Prostitutes clearly have the same equipment as wives, so how come one group has sex relentlessly and the other is way below par? Sociologists and Psychologists should be getting numerous PhDs from this study. I am not entirely convinced that its us at fault in the homes. I think there are issues that men need to answer questions about.
> 
> ...


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Frustrated_Hubs said:


> Yes she does and I have given her just that. But this issue is much larger than that.
> 
> She had abmornal cells discovered from a smear discovered and had to have a procedure to remove them. Its quite a common procedure with a 4-6 week recovery period. The procedure was in March.
> 
> This accounts for a small proportion of the past 2 years + wherein sexual intimacy has been sparce to say the least. I'm starting to believe that the procedure has now become her go to excuse to avoid sex as we are 3 months on and while complaining about thrush like symptoms she is doing nothing to rectify things.



What people seem to be missing is that his wife has had a medical procedure that involves a finding of abnormal cells in her genital area - not sure what exactly that was...pap smear? What happened in the year prior? Did she have symptoms? Sounds like she gets yeast infections. Besides the burning and itching that goes with those, it makes you feel unclean and you want to prevent it. Plus, you can pass it back and forth! Both people need to be treated for a yeast infection if one person has it! Did the OP get himself treated?

Cancerous cells is a terrifying finding for a woman. Some women's personalities might be cheerful and move on. For other women, this is going to be very depressing, scary. I would be scared and nervous. Plus it's down there where the sex goes on. All kinds of things could go through a person's head, like, "Don't disturb anything down there or you'll make it worse." These fears can go all the way down to the fear of dying. 

Which makes this red flag for what she is going through. That is the first place my own mind jumped - not "oh, she doesn't love you and is probably having an affair and she has no right to withhold sex from you because that was part of the deal in getting married.

No, it actually ISN'T in the marriage contract that a person must have sex with their spouse whenever their spouse wants or that a spouse can only go *so* long. What IS in the marriage contract is "for better or for worse" "in sickness and in health."

This is a woman whose life is completely opened to her husband's knowledge - all passwords, bank accounts, everything PLUS she doesn't drive. She cleans the house totally spotless, she only sees girlfriends every couple of months or so...all this information is in the OPs posts.

Yes, I've read this thread very carefully. My question is...did she suffer with some symptoms prior to the medical procedure? Does she have other medical issues, such as thyroid or uterine fibroids, endometriosis, etc? Women have a lot of stuff going on with their sex organs and with periods every month, we are constantly reminded of the genital area and all the maintenance that goes with it. For some women, no big deal - but for another set of women, it's a big deal. 

That's why her side of the issues that are not voiced here keep me from jumping to conclusions about what she is thinking and feeling. I feel it's faulty logic to jump to conclusions without her input. We may never have it - which is okay. But I'm not going to tell the OP something to do to put his foot down with his wife or that his wife is being mean or cruel or that she doesn't love him when that information is missing.


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## Frustrated_Hubs (Jun 23, 2018)

happiness27 said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by happiness27 View Post
> "She is apparently just concerned over the weight gain, nothing more."
> 
> ...


While I haven't seen many there have been a few instances where I have not liked the way people has portrayed my wife, but I feel pulling them on it would be counterintuitive to why I am here. From reading other threads on these boards my sticking up for my wife would lead to everyone picking up on that one fact.

I would then be the recipient of numerous messages like "why are you defending her when shes being this way", "ugh, go get your balls out of her purse and man up" etc.. The focus of the thread would shift from our intimacy issues and become all about my manliness. It then would not be very productive would it. 

I do not want to invite my wife to read this thread, at least short term. If we manage to start turning things around it may prove useful for her to see my interpritation of events without a love filter. For now though I need this place as a port in the storm so to speak. I don't have the type of friends I could discuss these things with, this is my only output. I need to rant to release, and this is the perfect outlet for me to do that.

You are right that everything I write will have some bais in my favour, of course it will thats human nature, particularly when your in pain and naturally defensive. I would never not give a true account though as it would defeat the whole purpose of being here to begin with. The most of what I say about my Wife is from my perspective as its the only one I have.

You are very defensive of my wife and I fully understand and appreciate your point of view. I have at no time settled to believe that there is someone else or a loss of attraction, but I cannot discount these possibilities.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

happiness27 said:


> What people seem to be missing is that his wife has had a medical procedure that involves a finding of abnormal cells in her genital area - not sure what exactly that was...pap smear? What happened in the year prior? Did she have symptoms? Sounds like she gets yeast infections. Besides the burning and itching that goes with those, it makes you feel unclean and you want to prevent it. Plus, you can pass it back and forth! Both people need to be treated for a yeast infection if one person has it! Did the OP get himself treated?
> 
> Cancerous cells is a terrifying finding for a woman. Some women's personalities might be cheerful and move on. For other women, this is going to be very depressing, scary. I would be scared and nervous. Plus it's down there where the sex goes on. All kinds of things could go through a person's head, like, "Don't disturb anything down there or you'll make it worse." These fears can go all the way down to the fear of dying.
> 
> ...


I thought we were having honest dialogue. 

The mischaracterization of marriage vows, the direct accusation of entitlement to sex, as well as the overt minimization of marital sex clearly shows otherwise. 

Take care.



Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## Frustrated_Hubs (Jun 23, 2018)

happiness27 said:


> What people seem to be missing is that his wife has had a medical procedure that involves a finding of abnormal cells in her genital area - not sure what exactly that was...pap smear? What happened in the year prior? Did she have symptoms? Sounds like she gets yeast infections. Besides the burning and itching that goes with those, it makes you feel unclean and you want to prevent it. Plus, you can pass it back and forth! Both people need to be treated for a yeast infection if one person has it! Did the OP get himself treated?
> 
> Cancerous cells is a terrifying finding for a woman. Some women's personalities might be cheerful and move on. For other women, this is going to be very depressing, scary. I would be scared and nervous. Plus it's down there where the sex goes on. All kinds of things could go through a person's head, like, "Don't disturb anything down there or you'll make it worse." These fears can go all the way down to the fear of dying.
> 
> ...


...and you have no idea how much I hope you are right. I have not dismissed the issue being genuine and me mis-reading everything.

The smear that identified the abnormal cells was carried out 3 months ago, which was 10 months after our previous sexual encounter and 21 months after our issues began.

My wife is never once mentioned to me any concerns regarding her health, be it genital or otherwise. It would be odd information not to share, particularly to your SO who would be there to comfort and help you through things.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Frustrated_Hubs said:


> So do I Nobody and I'm in the damn relationship. Stupid male ego of mine telling me I don't need it. The more time I spend on this site the more I am realising my ego needs taking out back and shooting.





Frustrated_Hubs said:


> See and I've always had this arse backwards. Trying to earn respect by caring and catering for my wife regardless of whether its reciprocated.


OP want to focus on these two quotes. And for the record, the last day or so I really think YOU are "Thinking" better and more clearly. 

I honestly don't think that your ego needs to be shoot. Ego does not have to be bad. 

But therapy and counseling are not necessarily a bad thing, with the right counselor it really can be great. Key work "Right". 

And the second quote: Now this is something that you really need to think about. We have all done this to a certain extent and it is a beta behavior. Yes it is. When you are with a person that really does not respect you, and does not desire you, why do these things. 

So here is a little story from my past: While my ex and I did not have sexual issues, we had issues. I tried and tried and tried. It did not work. 

At the end, we had an argument, and please ladies do not start, where I said, "I don't think you quite understand, I am a desirable man, good looking, have some money yada yada, there are so many women that want to be with me. And you cant get yourself together just to keep me." 

Just so everyone knows, just one of HER problems was that she was a drug addict and kept it hidden for 20 years, so I did not know what was going on. Horrible. 

So when we split, one of my kids bands had a gig a one of the bars that I play at as well. So I go there to support them as I was off that night. And so does STBXW, and of course we are not sitting or talking. 

So that night, minding my own business sitting alone, not really working the room at all. No less than 5 different women came by to visit, flirt, give me a little kiss or whatever. None of this was planed some of them I knew, some of them knew I was on the market, but I did nothing to encourage it. 

My STBXW was fummmmming. She was hot. Smoking hot mad. Mind you, I did nothing to encourage any of this attention. But I sure did not mind it. 

The next day I saw her and she said, "How could you do that. How could you let all those women hang on you, and bla, bla, bla". 

I said first of all, we are getting a divorce, and we are done. Second and most importantly, I just tried to explain to you what was going to happen. You were warned, if it bothered you, you could have left. That is not my issue.

The point is that with her drug use, and even when she go sober, she could not get herself together, and she was not going to get herself together for me or anything that I ever did for her, so I was done.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

> No, but It could be considered a lite version of it.
> 
> This is more commonly known as turning down the thermostat.
> 
> ...


 @Frustrated_Hubs,

I am going to speak to you as a woman of a certain age who's gone through "the change" and had a few trips around the sun. I am not one of these women who has no interest in sex or intimacy, but I am at least someone who has had to adapt at times to varying physical situations, aging, etc. 

In particular this post REALLY caught my eye, because what I've learned in studying marriage is that a LOT of what we've been taught is love actually is bass ackward. For example, marriage vows are not "Woohoo I now have someone in my life who is going to love me forever and meet all my needs!" Nope...it's "Woohoo I am making a promise TO SOMEONE in my life that I am going to love them forever and meet THEIR needs"...bass ackward. 

In this case, earning respect, if I may, I would like to share some things a male human can do that do earn respect ... and some things that not only do NOT earn respect, but also maybe decrease or diminish the respect!

For me the biggest thing a male human can do that commands my respect is to respect himself. Honestly I have initials after my name: FLS, GSD and they stand for "Feisty Little ****, Getting Things Done"!! I can be a bit of a firecracker, and any man that's going to put up with me better be pretty strong! If I railroad all over the top of some guy because he can't make a decision or won't stand up for himself, do you think I find that respectful? NOPE. I find it discouraging and weak! But if I find a guy who will put his foot down and say "I'm not controlling what you decide to do but I am not having that in my life!" who stands up for what's good for him and speaks up--guess what? THAT is a guy I can depend on and put faith in and build a foundation with because he has the inner strength and moral fortitude to take a stand. 

Now, a lot is said and has been said about not being 'beta' and man I hate that term. Here's why: it's misinterpreted as not being KIND. You don't have to be an ass to be 'alpha'. I always envision a Clydesdale mare with her foal. She could crush that baby EASILY with one hoof--she has that much raw strength--and yet her choice is to treat that baby with gentleness and kindness. If the baby steps out of line, the Clydesdale mare will nip it, and may even kick it to get it out of the way of danger! Thus, she has the strength...and knows when to use it how to use it! That is being 'alpha' ... having self-worth, and knowing your value, and having personal boundaries...yet making the choice to treat those who are smaller or weaker with gentleness or kindness. You notice if the baby gets out of line, the mare doesn't just tolerate it or cater to it. Nope. That foal is put right back in line and the shenanigans are not acceptable. 

So if I were in your wife's shoes, I can honestly say I wouldn't want to feel like I'm always being pursued just as a sexual being, but I can also honestly say that I'd feel like "Hey I've turned him down for more than a year and he hasn't done anything but grumble. He's not going anywhere. I've got him and I can do what I want." That's not respect. You are who you are, and what you need it okay. I say look up some sex therapists in your area, make and appointment, and then tell your wife: "We've had this talk before that no sex is unacceptable, and no real change has been made. I've made an appointment with a sex therapist, and effective today this is either addressed fully and resolved in a timely manner, or we are done. You can choose if you want to join me on this journey or not, but I will no longer live like this EVER." Mic drop. No more talking. No more threats. Act or be done.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Frustrated_Hubs said:


> While I haven't seen many there have been a few instances where I have not liked the way people has portrayed my wife, but I feel pulling them on it would be counterintuitive to why I am here. From reading other threads on these boards my sticking up for my wife would lead to everyone picking up on that one fact.
> 
> I would then be the recipient of numerous messages like "why are you defending her when shes being this way", "ugh, go get your balls out of her purse and man up" etc.. The focus of the thread would shift from our intimacy issues and become all about my manliness. It then would not be very productive would it.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry you don't want your wife involved in the thread. You are willing to be more transparent with strangers on a forum than with your wife.

You are willing to let people talk trash about your wife without defending her. I'd be devastated if my husband was disloyal to me in that way. 

I agree with the people suggesting therapy. Both of you need to get all of your information in front of you so you are on the same mission and steering your ship in the same direction. That's extremely sound advice. It may be the ONLY sound advice you've gotten here. All this b.s. about affairs and man up and putting up with no sex, man up and demand it - so much of it is just filling your head with a bunch of paranoia that you have zero basis for thinking. 

I don't think it's helpful, I think it's dangerous to the lives of at least three people (you, your wife, your child) and I won't participate in putting forth ideas that would break up a family when therapy would very likely offer much more clarity and options. You guys are real live flesh and blood and not just stories on a computer screen. More care should be given and more consideration for the effects our words have on this situation.


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## Frustrated_Hubs (Jun 23, 2018)

BluesPower said:


> OP want to focus on these two quotes. And for the record, the last day or so I really think YOU are "Thinking" better and more clearly.
> 
> I honestly don't think that your ego needs to be shoot. Ego does not have to be bad.
> 
> ...


I have spent a lot of time the past day or so searching inside myself. Lots of time spent just sat introspecting. I'm strangly feeling much less frustrated for it too. Theres a semblance on clear thought again and its helping to digest the situation much better than I ever have.

Therapy is something I am going to look into, particularly MC. 

I do have a lot of beta traits, but I don't view them as a bad thing. I have some Alpha traits too. I control our finances sort and pay all bills. Any large decisions we have to make are generally discussed but she does like me to make the final call because she trusts my judgement. When we go out I choose the place and often will order for her, which again she has previously expressed she likes. 

I am definately tilted more beta than Alpha, perhaps a little too much who knows. In the house and with day to day things she rules the roost. I don't in all honesty mind that either, she is better with the little things and I believe we both like that dynamic.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Affaircare said:


> @Frustrated_Hubs,
> 
> I am going to speak to you as a woman of a certain age who's gone through "the change" and had a few trips around the sun. I am not one of these women who has no interest in sex or intimacy, but I am at least someone who has had to adapt at times to varying physical situations, aging, etc.
> 
> ...


Please note that we have not heard from the OPs wife. We don't know the whole story.

The therapist suggestion, however, is the soundest advice. A bunch of people on a forum aren't going to solve this.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Frustrated_Hubs said:


> I have spent a lot of time the past day or so searching inside myself. Lots of time spent just sat introspecting. I'm strangly feeling much less frustrated for it too. Theres a semblance on clear thought again and its helping to digest the situation much better than I ever have.
> 
> Therapy is something I am going to look into, particularly MC.
> 
> ...


My viewpoint on how you have described yourself is that you are extremely Alpha. 

"She is better with the little things" You choose the place, you order for your wife, you make the final call, you control the finances, she doesn't drive, she only sees girlfriends every couple of months, she scrubs the house spotless...

You have described a relationship very, very different from mine where I order my own meals, make my own choices, make my own decisions about what activities I'm going to participate in, go where I want when I want and so does my husband - we just keep each other informed. That you characterized her activities as "little things" is insightful.

You have described a man who is very dominant (which I do not mean to characterize as domineering because I don't actually know you.) 

Again, therapy. Sessions with a therapist will help the two of you look at your dynamic, who each of you are as individuals and help both of you grow as individuals and therefore the relationship.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

happiness27 said:


> Please note that we have not heard from the OPs wife. We don't know the whole story.
> 
> The therapist suggestion, however, is the soundest advice. A bunch of people on a forum aren't going to solve this.


Why are you constantly defending his wife. He has been open with his opinions and given a lot of facts. 

ANY woman, that does not have some huge medical reason, and the things she has been dealing with are not huge medical reasons, who refuses sex with her husband is WRONG.

I have been through all of these things with more than one woman and after healing they were hot to trot. 

Why do you feel the need? Is there no situation where a wife denying her husband sex COULD BE WRONG? Are you saying that it never happens? Are you saying that a woman that does not want to have sex with her husband who is a normal guy is never wrong? She is never the problem? 

DO YOU ACTUALLY BELIEVE THAT? Please say that you don't...


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

BluesPower said:


> Why are you constantly defending his wife. He has been open with his opinions and given a lot of facts.
> 
> ANY woman, that does not have some huge medical reason, and the things she has been dealing with are not huge medical reasons, I have been through all of these things with more than one woman and after healing they were hot to trot.
> 
> ...


She has no voice here. She doesn't know what is being discussed about her. This couple needs therapy, not people speculating negative things based on one-sided information. 

My interest is in giving thoughts to the OP that will advance his relationship to a level that will have a good outcome for the family.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

happiness27 said:


> She has no voice here. She doesn't know what is being discussed about her. This couple needs therapy, not people speculating negative things based on one-sided information.
> 
> My interest is in giving thoughts to the OP that will advance his relationship to a level that will have a good outcome for the family.


Well, I guess we could just disable the "reply" option and have a bot issue the following:

"Unless your partner is willing to post as well, the only allowable advice is to seek therapy as a couple"

Not sure what good that would do anyone but, hey, get some investors together and give it a try.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

I am very sorry for this wife and terrible things that have been said about her here without her knowledge.


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## Frustrated_Hubs (Jun 23, 2018)

happiness27 said:


> My viewpoint on how you have described yourself is that you are extremely Alpha.
> 
> "She is better with the little things" You choose the place, you order for your wife, you make the final call, you control the finances, she doesn't drive, she only sees girlfriends every couple of months, she scrubs the house spotless...
> The little things is her way of discribing what she controls, and to clarify a little further they include choosing holiday locations, furniture and decorative choices around the house, where we go and what we do through the week (other than date night), what food we have in the house, she even decides what I wear when we do go out. She doesn't drive because she hasn't been able to get her licence, the drivers test in the UK is quite tough compared to others.
> ...


Maybe 'the little things' was the wrong choice of words, but they are her words. Perhaps it would have been better if I had said 'other then the really big stuff' I don't know. 

Perhaps I have sided with the ones who are calling this an affair or loss of attraction more than posters like yourself, particularly when this thread first started. I started this thread out of frustration and emotionally I was a wreck, the responses on here (including your own) have made me look inwards to the cause of this issue. I am not dismissing any medical or psycological issue being at the root. If my wife afforded me the same transparency you are pushing me to give her then I would have this answer.


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## Frustrated_Hubs (Jun 23, 2018)

Affaircare said:


> @Frustrated_Hubs,
> 
> I am going to speak to you as a woman of a certain age who's gone through "the change" and had a few trips around the sun. I am not one of these women who has no interest in sex or intimacy, but I am at least someone who has had to adapt at times to varying physical situations, aging, etc.
> 
> ...


 @Affaircare I believe that you may very well have hit the nail on the head. Whilst to some people I do seem to be coming over as being 'very Alpha' (I'm not quite sure how myself) I am very passive in our day to day life. 

I've never seen this as an issue as my work is full of stress and pressure and I have always liked that I don't have to 'sweat the small stuff' when I get home to compound the stress as my wife has always taken care of that side of things. Its a dynamic that I like and I have always believed that my wife has too. I have been of the mindset that she must be happy with things as she is getting her way, _Happy Wife Happy Life_ and all that. What I have not really done in the past is consider how this makes her view me, at least until the past week or two wherein the responses I have received on this board have made me really analyse our relationship much deeper than I ever have before. 

It is an explanation that would fit in with most of our situation, the great sex life which slowly eroded over a period of time could directly correlate to a gradual loss of her respect for me over this period. The loss of respect could even be on a subconscious level which is why my wife has never been able to verbalise the issues. Although I think she would be too kindhearted to just turn to me and say _"I've lost all respect for you"_.

The only buts I have is that I have been this way since we first met, that is 11 years without a hint of any issues with our relationship before this all began. I would have thought that such loss of respect would have started to show much sooner than this. also, wouldn't such a loss of respect impact us outside of the bedroom. There is no loss of affection outside of sex, we hug kiss and cuddle like teenagers all the time. 

What I have done is wallow in my own self-pity for the past two years, and I am starting to see that I have blamed my wife for my own failings (there's that chuffing ego again). Feeling sorry for myself, which has diminished my self-esteem, which has in turn has likely damaged my wife's respect for me even further (if not destroyed it altogether). I need to start and own this if there is any chance of salvaging our relationship, I see this now.

Counselling is definitely something I am going to arrange. This afternoon I am planning on reading up on some MC's in our area, read some reviews, and try and arrange an initial appointment with someone. 

I just hope that if there is a loss of respect my lack of action (or even realisation) has not done too much damage that what we had is no longer salvageable.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

FH,

You clearly aren’t close to ready to divorce her. There is a lot of subtext to marital interaction. One critical dimension to that subtext is where it falls on the approval spectrum. That spectrum is bracketed on the high end by admiration, which is strongly correlated with desire. Then you have approval which tends to be about a specific action or set of actions. Neutral. Disapproval, and finally contempt. 

You are SATURATING her in approval/admiration while you claim to be internally considering divorce. 

That said - I’m not suggesting that her lack of desire is based on petty things or major things. I’m suggesting you have no idea what causes it. 

Stop pretending. All this hand holding and hugging - while contemplating the end of marriage is dishonest. In fact it is EVERY BIT as dishonest as her playing the doctor game with you. I’m sick, I have this that or the other issue - followed by her making no effort to see the doctor. 

If you stopped giving her false reassurance and prioritized yourself: gym, spending time with your friends - not married couple socialization. Spending time with your guy friends, you would be surprised by the result. 

And you haven’t really provided much useful information about how you got to such a broken place.

To date, your conversations with your wife have been self focused. In short: I need more sex and better quality sex

You have not focused on WHY she either isn’t attracted to you or doesn’t like the sexual experience itself. 

While each of us is unique, it is also true that certain themes are fairly pervasive. I have yet to meet someone with the qualities below who is in a sexually broken marriage. As to edge, the best I can do is say that my wife is like my chain saw. Very safe to spend time with if handled properly. Seriously hazardous to your health if handled improperly. Replace *handled* with: interacted with. But that edge makes her hot. 

- Physically fit
- Has good hygiene and dresses well
- Good sense of humor
- Light to medium amount of edge 
- Financially self sufficient







Frustrated_Hubs said:


> My wife, the love of my life, wants nothing to do with me. Since we discussed all the issues in our marriage 2 months ago (almost all intimacy related issues) we have had sex once, even then she had to be drunk. I suppose one and a half times really but her stopping me whenever I entered her doesn't really count.
> 
> The day after our talk she had a procedure done on her vagina that meant no sex for 6 weeks which is fair enough and to be honest the 6 weeks of new found flirting and teasing was great fun. I felt really happy that we had reconnected.
> 
> ...


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## Frustrated_Hubs (Jun 23, 2018)

MEM2020 said:


> FH,
> 
> You clearly aren’t close to ready to divorce her. There is a lot of subtext to marital interaction. One critical dimension to that subtext is where it falls on the approval spectrum. That spectrum is bracketed on the high end by admiration, which is strongly correlated with desire. Then you have approval which tends to be about a specific action or set of actions. Neutral. Disapproval, and finally contempt.
> 
> ...


You are right @MEM2020 I am not ready to divorce her, and that isn't what I want.

As this thread has developed I am seeing more and more that the issues are with me and not my wife. *I* have been feeling sorry for *myself* over the situation that *I* am in and how *my* situation is effecting *me*.

I may well have destroyed our relationship from the inside through a combination of passive aggressive behaviour and being a snivelling sh!t complaining about how I feel. All the time eroding away the respect of my wife. I hate and resent myself for this, but I am determined to turn things around. I hope and pray that it is not too late for us, but I see now that if it is then that's on me.

I have started to follow the _180 LITE_ as suggested by @farsidejunky and so far all this has done is throw my wife through a loop. I believe she is confused about my changes in behaviour and whilst she has said nothing yet its obvious through her reactions its got her riled. What I will say is that its very difficult to maintain being this way, change is hard.

What I haven't been able to get so far is any clarification from my wife as to what has changed from her perspective. She used to be very open regarding her emotions and whats going on in her head, but she has closed off to me. When we have discussed things in the past _"I don't know", "Nothing", "I'm just in a mood"_ have been her stock responses. It is very out of character for her to be this way. 

Yesterday I found a MC local to us and have arranged an appointment for us both for the end of next week (the earliest they had, hopefully that's a good sign if they are in demand). We are out for a meal tomorrow night just the two of us and I plan on telling her about the appointment then. 

As to how we got here I don't really know if I'm honest, things fell by the wayside very slowly. I woke up one day and realised we were in a sexless marriage with no rationale as to why. I'm really hopeful that next week will shed some light on everything, that is if she agrees to come with me (I'll be going regardless).


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Please elaborate on "thrown for a loop".

I suspect the moment is coming sooner rather than later. When she flips, remember the sayings.

Another good one:

"I am no longer okay with resenting myself for giving time and affection to someone who has no sexual interest in me, so I am choosing to do other things with that time."

Give her space and cause to do that for which she is responsible: communicating why she has chosen to end your sex life. You cannot address what she will not define. 

And FTR, Mem was instrumental in helping me right my marital ship as well, FH. While I am very good at helping you define boundaries and enforce them, he is scary good at turning those boundaries into collaboration. 

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## Frustrated_Hubs (Jun 23, 2018)

farsidejunky said:


> Please elaborate on "thrown for a loop".


Shocked and surprised. The first time I applied this new approach when she asked a 'favour' of me she just stood gobsmacked for a moment (her bottom jaw actually dropped, it was like a cartoon) and then she left the room. It went along the lines of:

Wife : Husband, will you wash me those pots from tea
Me : Sorry I can't, I have a headache
Wife : A headache doesn't stop you from washing pots does it?
Me : Headaches seem to have the ability to prevent people doing all sorts don't they

It was only a small thing, but as she left is disbelief I couldn't help but smirk. 

It does feel a little manipulative though behaving this way.

The hardest part for me is cutting out the shows of affection and not responding to hers. I have been doing but I find I'm fighting the inclination to do so.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Frustrated_Hubs said:


> Shocked and surprised. The first time I applied this new approach when she asked a 'favour' of me she just stood gobsmacked for a moment (her bottom jaw actually dropped, it was like a cartoon) and then she left the room. It went along the lines of:
> 
> Wife : Husband, will you wash me those pots from tea
> Me : Sorry I can't, I have a headache
> ...


Because when you do it that way, it is manipulative.

There is a subtle difference between "doing it for you" and "doing it to her".

What you did was the latter, and is exactly how the 180 lite crosses over into passive aggressive territory. 

That said, you just fired a huge shot across her bow.

The idea of the process is not to stick it to her. The idea is to stop investing in her, and start investing in you. Honestly, you would have been okay minus that last dig.

Here is some reading for your personal development that will explain a little bit better:

https://www.lynneforrest.com/articles/2008/06/the-faces-of-victim/

Remember: 'for you', not 'to her'.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## Frustrated_Hubs (Jun 23, 2018)

farsidejunky said:


> Because when you do it that way, it is manipulative.
> 
> There is a subtle difference between "doing it for you" and "doing it to her".
> 
> ...


_I really appreciate the time you have afforded me in your responses. You have pushed me to look inside and given me a real insight into my own failings. Thank you_


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Actually, let me correct one thing I said to you in my earlier post.

Initially, I said you would have been okay without the last dig. That isn't quite correct.

Did you actually have a headache? If not, you were lying. Raw honesty is essential in this process.

If you didn't have a headache, you could have said, "No, thank you. I am in the middle of x." or just simply, "No" in a mild-mannered tone.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

OP the 180 is for those people looking to detach and divorce.

So if that is your goal you are good.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

farsidejunky said:


> Because when you do it that way, it is manipulative.
> 
> There is a subtle difference between "doing it for you" and "doing it to her".
> 
> ...


I have to say that I have no problem with how he handled this. 

I believe that with people like his wife, it is OK to let them know, "Hey, this is the way that you have treated me, and not this is how things are." 

If she is not attracted, and invested in her husband and their sex life, then this is the result. 

The other say GF was over and she, first time ever and I put a stop to it immediately. I was working on my remodel in my bathroom and she wanted to come visit. Cool but I had to finish to a certain point before I could stop and I have been working all day. I mean I was so sweaty a gross that is did not even kiss her. 

So I am taking a load of material out to the trash and finishing up, and she asked if I would get her a glass of water. Usually I would have no issue, we both do that for each other all the time. 

But I looked at her and said, "Honey, you need to do that right now, and next time with I am working and trying to finish something like this, DONT ASK..." She was cool, she was not thinking, but it pissed me off and she knew it. 

I think OP handled it completely correct, except that he had to talk to her at all...


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Frustrated_Hubs said:


> What I haven't been able to get so far is any clarification from my wife as to what has changed from her perspective.


It's entirely possible, even probable, that she has no idea herself.

So, don't bother asking for clarification


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Ah, the good old **** test.

Some people prefer to counter them with aggression or anger. But why did it anger you? I mean, I ultimately understand why it would (and occasionally does) anger me, but I see that anger as one of the traits of my personality that is a hindrance rather than a benefit. 

Furthermore, if you fully subscribe to the manosphere ideals of frame, her eliciting anger is a clear ability to alter your frame, if nowhere else than her sensing it on an unconscious level...ergo, anger response to **** test = partial fail.

That said, responding to **** tests calmly...or even better...with humor, really shows sturdiness of frame. This is what I strive for, although admittedly, I still periodically struggle. 



BluesPower said:


> I have to say that I have no problem with how he handled this.
> 
> I believe that with people like his wife, it is OK to let them know, "Hey, this is the way that you have treated me, and not this is how things are."
> 
> ...


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Frustrated_Hubs said:


> Maybe 'the little things' was the wrong choice of words, but they are her words. Perhaps it would have been better if I had said 'other then the really big stuff' I don't know.
> 
> Perhaps I have sided with the ones who are calling this an affair or loss of attraction more than posters like yourself, particularly when this thread first started. I started this thread out of frustration and emotionally I was a wreck, the responses on here (including your own) have made me look inwards to the cause of this issue. I am not dismissing any medical or psycological issue being at the root. If my wife afforded me the same transparency you are pushing me to give her then I would have this answer.


And that's it in a nutshell, your statement:
"If my wife afforded me the same transparency you are pushing me to give her then I would have this answer."

We can only hope she and all SOs would be honest and communicate well, telling their SO what REALLY is the problem. 

My two cents; I believe your blinders continue to come off and whatever happens, you can look back and think you did what you could before it all went nuclear ie the big D. Or at least before reality hits her and she finally tells you what's really the issue or she says she's been planning her exit strategy.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

farsidejunky said:


> Ah, the good old **** test.
> 
> Some people prefer to counter them with aggression or anger. But why did it anger you? I mean, I ultimately understand why it would (and occasionally does) anger me, but I see that anger as one of the traits of my personality that is a hindrance rather than a benefit.
> 
> ...


You know, I don't totally disagree in a way. Now whether I am older than you or OP, or in a different stage of life, Who knows...

But you have to understand where a man like me is coming from. I preface this with... I love my GF more that ANY woman I have ever been with, she is wonderful at a lever I never knew existed. 

However, all the same rule apply to her as any other woman. I don't play games (tests), I don't do drama at any level. And most importantly, you get one chance with me to screw up, not two, not three. ONE. 

As harsh as all that sounds, that is the way that it is, if you want to be with me, these are the rules and they don't change, for anyone. 

In my story, she knew she screwed up, she said sorry, and it was over. If she had acted a fool, she would have been told to F*** off and get out.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> And that's it in a nutshell, your statement:
> "If my wife afforded me the same transparency you are pushing me to give her then I would have this answer."
> 
> We can only hope she and all SOs would be honest and communicate well, telling their SO what REALLY is the problem.
> ...


You know I like this post. And you could be right, but OP does want to make sure that he has done all he could. Which I believe will not change things, but I get it. 

But when OP posted about the decline and recent events, I swear it really sounds like an affair to me. 

OP has really check out all of that and he is convinced so we have to go with that. 

I suspect that this marriage will end in divorce not to be pessimistic but I just don't know where you go after 2 years of avoiding sex with your husband... who know...


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Frustrated_Hubs said:


> Shocked and surprised. The first time I applied this new approach when she asked a 'favour' of me she just stood gobsmacked for a moment (her bottom jaw actually dropped, it was like a cartoon) and then she left the room. It went along the lines of:
> 
> Wife : Husband, will you wash me those pots from tea
> Me : Sorry I can't, I have a headache
> ...


That wasn't "a little manipulative" - it was full on purposeful passive-aggressive that you delighted in, evidenced by your smirk. Do you think that was a *win*? No, it was a loss...because you lowered yourself to that behavior. 

This 180 thing is just that - a "thing", a fad, a trend...please show it to the MC when you get there and get his/her take on that with a discussion to help you understand if that is an appropriate approach for your personalized situation.

This is why I don't like the internet for any kind of advice when people aren't in personalized professional counseling. People say all kinds of things behind a keyboard and you have to decipher what's sound and what's junk science. Random advice like this can just create more damage. If a spouse thinks you are doing something just to *get* to them, it can inflict damage. 

I call this kind of damage "nicks" - meaning a nick or cut, a wound. It's like the story about the father who had his son drive a nail into a post - then take it out, asking him if the post was still damaged when he took the nail out? Yes, it is. A hole is still there. When you are already struggling and trying to come up with solutions, inflicting additional damage is just going to push the couple further apart and create more damage.

You're going to have to apologize for that at some point because it was mean spirited and intended to passively-aggressively get back at her for not getting sex from her for reasons that have yet to come to light with a therapist. 

I have said this before here - back in the 70s, we referred to this kind of behavior as "playing games" - there was even a book "Games People Play." I don't like playing games. We've all done it at some point in our lives. But as we become mature, evolved people, we hopefully learn to know better and we avoid it, especially when its games intended to hurt other people.

I hope your therapy appt is soon. You guys sound like a really nice family in a not-uncommon point in your marriage and you could use some tools to navigate both of you through it. Hang in there. Never ring the bell - and I mean that for both of you. 

Marriage is wonderful but it's also a challenge from which 50% of people will bail out. The people who continue to make it are tenacious and committed, malleable and willing to do the work. This - coming from a person whose marriage has been through the wringer also but keep hanging in there with each other through thick and thin - through sex and no sex, through working in separate countries from each other, from raising kids, through the death of all four of our parents and an adult child, through his/her illnesses, through betrayals and recoveries.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

BluesPower said:


> You know I like this post. And you could be right, but OP does want to make sure that he has done all he could. Which I believe will not change things, but I get it.
> 
> But when OP posted about the decline and recent events, I swear it really sounds like an affair to me.
> 
> ...


I had one friend in which I confided once about something going on in my marriage and she said the same thing to me: "I don't think you guys are going to make it."

You know who I dumped? - The friend.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

I agree some friends can be toxic...

That said, you imply you have THE answer.. What is your solution to a COUPLE that hasn't had sex for two years?

Just for discussion sake. *sorry for a side note.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

happiness27 said:


> I am very sorry for this wife and terrible things that have been said about her here without her knowledge.


Respectfully, get over yourself.

99% of issues on forums. My guess is that you are one of those women who deprived their husband, and this hits too close to home.

His wife usnt coming here, so instead of beating a dead horse why not just move on to a two-spouse thread?


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

"I believe that with people like his wife, it is OK to let them know, "Hey, this is the way that you have treated me, and not this is how things are." "

I honestly have no problem with that if one is direct, not passive aggressive. The dig probably went over her head as a comment on their sex life (ask me how I know - I had an asexual hubby).

I'd have said the dishes arent important to me, just like sex isnt important to her.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Frustrated_Hubs said:


> Wife : Husband, will you wash me those pots from tea
> Me : Sorry I can't, I have a headache
> Wife : A headache doesn't stop you from washing pots does it?
> Me : Headaches seem to have the ability to prevent people doing all sorts don't they


 @Frustrated_Hubs

Have you actually ever read the 180 list? If not, here is a link: https://affaircare.com/the-180/ 

Doing this technique is a little confusing, but the concept is to use the list as a way to disentangle when a couple is codependently entangled! In your instance, we aren't there so we don't know if you and your wife are codependent, but based on the wee bit you've written here, it sounds like in your heart you think that maybe you are.

So based on your own analysis, since you ARE there, let me congratulate you on one MAJOR step: you decided to try a new approach rather than doing the same old thing!! That's actually HUGE!! 

Now, you did the new approach and it didn't feel quite right to you--probably didn't feel natural. Well...that's what it feels like when you do something new. It takes some time and consistency for it to become a habit and eventually feel "natural." Also whenever a person tries something new, I often recommend that they evaluate "How did it go?" and "What could I do differently or better next time?" 

Based on The 180 (U Turn) link above, will you tell me which number you think this interaction demonstrated? I mean, were you trying to do #15 or #18 maybe? See...I don't see a suggestion on the 180 list to be passive-aggressive or to be aggressive. So ???? I'm just curious how you think this fit in with the whole 180 philosophy. And just to clarify, I do not like to call it the 180 but rather The U Turn. In a humorous way, it's a little like that episode on Seinfeld where George was a loser in everything so he just did the opposite and he was a huge success! Sometimes what we are doing is almost self-sabotage, so if it's not working...do a U Turn. If begging and pleading and catering in an attempt to earn love is not working...don't keep doing that, right? 

Anyway, a passive aggressive response would have shown indirect resistance or avoidance: for example, 
Wife : Husband, will you wash me those pots from tea
Me : Yeah (when I get to them)
Wife (30 minutes later) : Hey honey, did you wash those pots?
Me (pouting) : I said I'd do them! I just forgot! Stop being such a nag! 

See how that is passive (you didn't come right out and say "no") but also aggressive (you didn't do the pots!)? 

An aggressive response would have shown you were trying to dominate her--speaking YOUR opinion or needs in a way that violates hers. Now this is interesting because if someone makes a request, that means that the other party has the freedom to say "no" and not be punished. If the other party is not free to say "no" then it's not longer a request, but rather a DEMAND...and demands are aggressive. So for example (you being the aggressor):
Wife : Husband, will you wash me those pots from tea
Me : Can't you see I have a headache? Washing pots is not my job! 
Wife : Could you wash them once your headache goes away?
Me (pouting) : You're the one who made them dirty, you wash them! Why should I have to suffer when it's your fault? 

Honestly, I think you fell the closest to this one in your interaction, but possibly not with such mean intent. I made the aggression kind of obvious, but both of you were stating your needs in a way that violated the other's.

Where we want to go here is assertive, which is neither passive-aggressive nor aggressive. Think of it more like you using your voice to actually state the truth as you see it...give a voice to your thoughts and feelings. So you state your needs--you advocate for yourself--but you also give the other the right to say "no" and have their own needs; it's respect of equals.

Thus here's an example:

Wife : Husband, will you wash me those pots from tea
Me : No, I have a headache (I'm assuming you did have a headache)
Wife : A headache doesn't stop you from washing pots does it?
Me : Actually, it does because I'm choosing to not prioritize someone who doesn't prioritize me. 

See...this would not be passive because you said no right up front. It's also not aggressive because you aren't blaming her or name calling or dominating her. You are just stating the real truth that you actually do feel: I do not CHOOSE to prioritize someone who doesn't prioritize me. That's true. And she's free to choose how to respond or to prioritize you! That's hers to decide. All you're doing is making yourself transparent so that she sees the real you...and the real you is hurting SO deeply you have considered divorce. That is BIG...and she's a big girl. She needs to know that.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Affaircare said:


> @Frustrated_Hubs
> 
> 
> Where we want to go here is assertive, which is neither passive-aggressive nor aggressive. Think of it more like you using your voice to actually state the truth as you see it...give a voice to your thoughts and feelings. So you state your needs--you advocate for yourself--but you also give the other the right to say "no" and have their own needs; it's respect of equals.
> ...


Malarky. There is zero logic in ANY of those responses. They are all game playing.

A good person would not use an unrelated task as a springboard for discussing the sex issue, they would say, about the tea pot: "Sure, no problem!" if they were available and just standing there. I mean we are civilized, mature people, aren't we? 

Then, in a separate, calm, conversation say: "I've made an appointment with a MC on XX date because I'm concerned about our inactive sex life. I love you. I'm committed to you and our family and I want to work on this so both of us are feeling good about each other and our sex life together."


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Frustrated_Hubs said:


> Shocked and surprised. The first time I applied this new approach when she asked a 'favour' of me she just stood gobsmacked for a moment (her bottom jaw actually dropped, it was like a cartoon) and then she left the room. It went along the lines of:
> 
> Wife : Husband, will you wash me those pots from tea
> Me : Sorry I can't, I have a headache
> ...


Frankly, I don't have a problem with the way you framed it...this time. It was a perfect "shot across the bow" IMO. 

I don't see it as a passive aggressive response because you in a not so nice way stated your boundary and in the same transaction called her out on her past behavior. And unless she is really dense, she got a first glimpse that this isn't the same man she has been dealing with. There will now be consequences to not getting your needs met. Don't let up.

I would keep in mind, however, that you don't need an excuse not to do something for her. Be that a headache or whatever. In the future, it is totally ok to simply say "No, I don't want to do that for you" or "I'm not ok with that", and walk away. If and when she proceeds to have a discussion about what you want and don't want to do, what you are and are not ok with... nothing is more direct than "I won't prioritize your needs when mine are completely ignored" stated in a matter-of-fact way. 

If that seems too aggressive, well my friend, the passive responses of the past haven't gotten you anywhere but 2 years older, still sexless and more resentful. Just be conscious not to allow yourself to be provoked into an angry response.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

[small threadjack]

@happiness27 

That may be your opinion, but mine differs greatly. I suggest that rather than responding to each person who posts, that you respond to the OP. Responding individually to others on a thread really is a little threadjack. 

[/small threadjack]


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

happiness27 said:


> Malarky. There is zero logic in ANY of those responses. They are all game playing.
> 
> A good person would not use an unrelated task as a springboard for discussing the sex issue, they would say, about the tea pot: "Sure, no problem!" if they were available and just standing there. I mean we are civilized, mature people, aren't we?
> 
> Then, in a separate, calm, conversation say: "I've made an appointment with a MC on XX date because I'm concerned about our inactive sex life. I love you. I'm committed to you and our family and I want to work on this so both of us are feeling good about each other and our sex life together."


Game playing?

A good person/wife would not withhold sex from their husband for 2 years.

Civilized? Mature? What if he feels that without some mutual consideration of his needs that continuing to do things for her makes him feel bad about himself. Makes him more resentful. Makes him feel like he's being taken advantage of? I guess that is apparently ok with you. 

How about making commitments to people who are seemingly not committed to you? Is that ok?

I think your dialogue to get a discussion going about sex is weak and I would not be at all surprised if he has been trying that already for the past year without success.

MC may help, but it isn't going to be successful if she isn't up front and honest about what is going on with her. And right now...I don't think FH's wife is being honest. 

And FTR, I wouldn't be at all surprised if this situation isn't like Cromer's. I'm betting 3:1 that she cheated on him 18 to 24 months ago and that is why FH is here. It may not be going on now, but something happened back then.


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## FrenchFry (Oct 10, 2011)

.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Where did he say she was still having chronic pain? And why is she not then going to the doctor? 

I'm baffled by this birds of a feather thing.


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## FrenchFry (Oct 10, 2011)

.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

I had pelvic pain, horrible periods, and cancer. I'm now in the midst of menopause and have a blood disorder.

We women move heaven and earth to do what is important to us. 

Sex is the biggest thing that distinguishes a spouse from a roommate. Depriving the person you vowed to cherish is not okay.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

The way I'm reading the thread is that there is a lot of speculation - which I do not see as helpful to the OP. He's already got in his head - with no evidence - a whole host of reasons. Then, he tries some fad method to get his wife's attention, which only serves to confuse her and make her mad at him.

My main concern is this whole family's whole dynamic and how it can best be helped - which is through all parties getting all of their information on the table with a professional who can help them sort it out. 

And, yeah, I've had sexual pelvic pain. It came out of no where and I ended up at more than one doctor and having to do a really mortifying specialized PT that involved a therapist massaging the inside of my vagina over a dozen visits, biofeedback to teach me to relax my vaginal muscles (after being told my vag muscles were "too tight" - UGH!) plus answering in writing all kinds of extremely personal sexual intercourse questions that is now part of electronic medical files and taking medications that killed my libido and stuffing cream up there several times a week. And feeling horrible because of the lousy sex that happened over that period of months while battling UTIs and yeast infections and working with medical people to get all this under control. 

If my husband had demanded that I give him sex or else during that period of time, it would have been crushing.

What I'm passionate about here is that there is a lot of stuff that goes on for women that they don't particularly want to discuss because it's embarrassing - not just that but mortifying. If the psychological issues that ensue because of issues involving genitalia sound like something a woman should just "get over" then I would beg to differ. 

Manipulating or forcing a woman to straighten up and get over it is not an effective way to handle a marriage issue - whatever the issue is. Getting both people in a discussion where they can have a safe talk honestly and openly is less damaging to a relationship than snarky exchanges.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

I don't see enough to think she's cheating.

However, she is playing the avoidance game. Not to say this is necessarily malicious, because she very well may not have any idea why she doesn't desire a sexual relationship with her husband.

To this point words have gotten him nowhere. This is why it's so crucial for him to show her through action that he won't tolerate this situation.

And look...the end result may be that she does in fact have a medical issue. I would totally extend some grace and understanding if that were the case...provided she was actively pursuing a solution.

What I have zero tolerance for is someone pretending the problem doesn't exist while their partner suffers, and then gaslighting them so they stop pursuing.

One other thing I think is important is the distinction between turning down the thermostat and the 180. Turning down the thermostat is often referred to as 180 lite, but it appears to be creating some confusion.

From here forward, it may be best if we simply refer to it as thermostat control.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

FrenchFry said:


> @happiness27, I'm on your side about the medical issues being a bigger deal than has been let on. Pelvic pain really sucks and it's very hard to diagnose and treat on top of there being that huge pressure to have sex. That may be the reason for no sex, or at least part of the issue.
> 
> This part though-mmm. For some people, the quoted makes sense. It certainly is rational. However, a whole bunch of other people would see this as actions and words not matching. Why is my husband being nice to me even though he thinks our relationship sucks and we need therapy? This duality creates a space where the wife can ignore the "mean" words and focus on the "nice" actions and continue on her merry way.
> 
> OP just needs to work on alignment, however that looks for his wife. I don't think that sniping is the answer, but just the word "No," does do wonders.


I think a rational person understands that frustration over sex does not mean that you stop being civil, kind and loving to your partner. Why exacerbate the problem by behaving like an *ss throughout your everyday life together? If you want the marriage to work, define the problem and work on THAT problem but don't create a minefield of other problems.

Yeah, the sniping part is uncalled for. It's a jab that just created another problem.


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## Frustrated_Hubs (Jun 23, 2018)

Affaircare said:


> @Frustrated_Hubs
> 
> Have you actually ever read the 180 list? If not, here is a link: https://affaircare.com/the-180/
> 
> ...


To be honest no I hadn't read up i th U turn or 180 before 'the incident'. I read the comments about the type of reactions to consider and misinterprated the meaning of what they were telling me. Jumped the gun if you will. After the feedback people gave me on 'the incident' I looked it up and realise how far off the mark I actually was.

Thank you though for the link, the website you have linked too is much neater than the one I found. Going off your username is it yours? If so, brava.

It was a lot harder than I expected it to be, 'the incident' being honest. I was aprehensiv, but now 'the incident' has passed I feel good about it. Not necessarily for what I said, but the fact that I said something.


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## FrenchFry (Oct 10, 2011)

.


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## Frustrated_Hubs (Jun 23, 2018)

personofinterest said:


> I had pelvic pain, horrible periods, and cancer. I'm now in the midst of menopause and have a blood disorder.
> 
> We women move heaven and earth to do what is important to us.
> 
> Sex is the biggest thing that distinguishes a spouse from a roommate. Depriving the person you vowed to cherish is not okay.


I agree with you 100% (of course I do, its the whole point of this thread really). Just as I agree that she is well within her rights to not want to have sex any longer.

But then she is the one changing the dynamic of our relationship if this were tk be the case, and surely it would be on her to approach me and address the situation to ensure both parties have agreement to the new terms of our marriage. Not to just enforce the amendments without even me knowing whats going on.


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## Frustrated_Hubs (Jun 23, 2018)

Oh and for those that asked, yes I had a headache.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Frustrated_Hubs said:


> To be honest no I hadn't read up i th U turn or 180 before 'the incident'. I read the comments about the type of reactions to consider and misinterprated the meaning of what they were telling me. Jumped the gun if you will. After the feedback people gave me on 'the incident' I looked it up and realise how far off the mark I actually was.
> 
> Thank you though for the link, the website you have linked too is much neater than the one I found. Going off your username is it yours? If so, brava.
> 
> It was a lot harder than I expected it to be, 'the incident' being honest. I was aprehensiv, but now 'the incident' has passed I feel good about it. Not necessarily for what I said, but the fact that I said something.


I want to wish you all the best, TAM friend. Remember the love for your wife and family and put that first always. You can make it through this and have much more to learn about each other that will, hopefully, enrich your love and understanding with each other.

My one trip to the UK was to the Tattoo and The Fringe Festival in Edinburgh many years ago and I loved everything about it. I have to admit the natives thought my hubby and I were crazy for renting a car in London and driving up the M6 to Edinburgh since gas was relatively high there - and I guess folks don't do a trip like that by car. However, we got to see so much of the country and experience much more of the culture - an experience I'll always treasure. 

So, I do understand that there may be some possible differences of how to approach life issues with my viewpoint coming from a blunt Midwestern American. My strongest hopes for you and your wife is that you rediscover your love and attraction for each other in new ways that keep your family intact but happier than ever.


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## FrenchFry (Oct 10, 2011)

.


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## Frustrated_Hubs (Jun 23, 2018)

happiness27 said:


> I want to wish you all the best, TAM friend. Remember the love for your wife and family and put that first always. You can make it through this and have much more to learn about each other that will, hopefully, enrich your love and understanding with each other.
> 
> My one trip to the UK was to the Tattoo and The Fringe Festival in Edinburgh many years ago and I loved everything about it. I have to admit the natives thought my hubby and I were crazy for renting a car in London and driving up the M6 to Edinburgh since gas was relatively high there - and I guess folks don't do a trip like that by car. However, we got to see so much of the country and experience much more of the culture - an experience I'll always treasure.
> 
> So, I do understand that there may be some possible differences of how to approach life issues with my viewpoint coming from a blunt Midwestern American. My strongest hopes for you and your wife is that you rediscover your love and attraction for each other in new ways that keep your family intact but happier than ever.


I really appreciate your kind words, and I have understood your viewpoint to a degree throughout the thread.

Seperate from any form of MC I have approached all of this with my wife very much the way you have discribed for the past year and a half. All our discussions and her false promises of change just fed into the situation further. I have been understanding and patient for the longest time and is clearly isnt the solution or I wound not be here.

I have to try a different solution, its not that I want to 'get back' at my wife its that I want to be close to her again. My first attempt was a bit of a flop, but it was still an attempt. Change is hard and its going to take time. 

What I wont do any longer though is meet her emotional needs (service and affection are her languages) while she continues to no longer meet mine.


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

personofinterest said:


> I had pelvic pain, horrible periods, and cancer. I'm now in the midst of menopause and have a blood disorder.
> 
> We women move heaven and earth to do what is important to us.
> 
> Sex is the biggest thing that distinguishes a spouse from a roommate. Depriving the person you vowed to cherish is not okay.


Agree, but it also helps to have a liberal definition of “sex”. I don’t need an hour of PiV (or even 2 orgasms), but I need to be cherished even if that just means “naked time” if that is all she can provide at times. That was a big adjustment for me, and her too.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Frustrated_Hubs said:


> What I wont do any longer though is meet her emotional needs (service and affection are her languages) while she continues to no longer meet mine.


Didn't work with my wife, but I wish you good luck!


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

In Absentia said:


> Didn't work with my wife, but I wish you good luck!


It generally "works" to bring resolution to the issue, although as you say quite often that resolution is NOT the couple having more and better sex. Often it results in the marriage ending. But I imagine that most of us here at SIM think that the marriage ending is a good outcome if the couple is seriously mismatched. Which means the technique "worked" to resolve the mismatch.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

If you live your life authentically, inevitably those who belong in your life will remain, and those who don't...won't.

The main reason for stopping the meeting of emotional needs is to show, through action, that the lies (overt, covert, by omission, and lying to oneself, denial) must stop.

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## Frustrated_Hubs (Jun 23, 2018)

Hi everyone,

We went out on Friday as I mentioned previously and during the meal I brought up the MC. I told her that I had booked to see a MC and that I would like for her to join me. Not quite sure what type of reaction I was expecting, but it was not the reaction she gave. She expressed that she thought it a good idea and something which is long overdue. 

I have been keeping on with putting my own needs ahead of hers and not jumping each time she asks, much more directly now than initially. If she asks me to do something its a flat _'No'_ or _'Later on'_ if I don't mind doing it just to emphasise that I will but in my own time. The thing is I am still waiting for the inevitable flip out which I was sure would follow. 

The only responses I seem to be eliciting are _'Ok'_ or _'No Problem'_, and I'm unsure how to take this. I felt that if she became annoyed or enraged it would at least spark a conversation about why the change in my behaviour, but nothing.

I'm puzzled by all this. On the one hand her happiness about the MC session booked for Friday I felt was a really good sign, but then her indifference over my changes is confusing at best. Hopefully Friday will shed some light on everything.


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## ThomAB (Jul 9, 2018)

Her indifference and your reaction to it is you trying to put yourself in her shoes and her way of thinking. 

Women do not think like men, we cannot persuade them to see things the way we want though reasoning and words, this is how men think and operate. She will react best when you are that "man" that she desperately wants you to be, she is maybe wanting for something you may not be giving her. 

Own your ****, don't put up with ****, outlay why your not doing things for her and she will be surprisingly Ok with everything. This is really unnerving for for men like ourselves, who like myself for many years went under the theory of "a happy wife = a happy life". Its completely wrong! "A happy man makes a happy wife" in my opinion, someone who she admires and looks up to in times of happiness, strife and all the bits in-between. 

I still struggle constantly, almost every day. 

Not sure if i am supposed to recommend anything here but the single best resource for me was MRP Reddit forum, it has some really great stuff. Week by week planning and action plans. It has changed my life and my attitude towards her. Things have definitely improved. (I am not associated with MRP or any of the posters there, i just use it and think maybe you could benefit from it too mate).

All the best with everything, keep strong and be that Man you know you can be.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

I have to admit I expected a reaction from her. it could be that your wife is just savvy, and knows what you are trying to do.

That said, there's still a lot of focus on her. Remember, you are doing this for you...not to her. The idea is to find yourself in this process.

I continued to struggle in my low sex marriage until I found something that I loved more than sex with my wife.

My suggestion would be to start finding something like that.

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## Frustrated_Hubs (Jun 23, 2018)

farsidejunky said:


> I have to admit I expected a reaction from her. it could be that your wife is just savvy, and knows what you are trying to do.
> 
> That said, there's still a lot of focus on her. Remember, you are doing this for you...not to her. The idea is to find yourself in this process.
> 
> ...


So did I FJ, and I'm thinking the same that she knows what I'm doing. This indicates that she may have been researching, that could be a good thing (concerned somethings wrong) or a bad (looking up... whys my huaband being a ****).

I also realise tbat I put far too much emphasis or her in my thoughts and actions. I have improved in this regard but its a damn hard habit to break.

I'm trying to put more focus on me. Been out and bought some weights today (only a few) to try and hone that focus a little more.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

To each their own, but the thing that led me to my own happiness was/is Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and MMA training. 

I train in it 3-5 times per week. The less she does for me, the more I train...and I am okay with that. That is not to say we are sexless. We average somewhere around once a week to maybe twice a month when really slow. 

Have you read Hold On To Your N.U.T.'s yet? It explains it so much better than I ever could. 

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## Frustrated_Hubs (Jun 23, 2018)

farsidejunky said:


> To each their own, but the thing that led me to my own happiness was/is Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and MMA training.
> 
> I train in it 3-5 times per week. The less she does for me, the more I train...and I am okay with that. That is not to say we are sexless. We average somewhere around once a week to maybe twice a month when really slow.
> 
> Have you read Hold On To Your N.U.T.'s yet? It explains it so much better than I ever could.


No I haven't, just googled the title and read a few reviews, it looks interesting may have to pick up a copy. 

Haven't really got any hobbies or interests, my family have been the centre my life for as long as I can remember. I have lost contact with a lot of my friends over the years so finding happiness for myself away from the family setting is more difficult than I realised.

I wouldn't know where to begin in making new friends or joining some sort of group. I have always had a kind of awkwardness about me in social environments. Not sure if it is anxiety, nerves, or what but I constantly feel on edge when around groups of people (this is why I bought weights rather than joining a gym). This can be a group of complete strangers, or even family and friends that I have grown up with. I am always _'That Guy'_, you must know one. Sits in the corner or stands alongside others keeping out of conversations while they all chat, and forgotten about as soon as I'm met.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Do you see the self-fulfilling prophecy in what you do?

"People are going to forget me, so I'm not going to engage them. Damn it sucks to be forgettable."

It is all victim speak.

You can choose to let your anxieties define you, or you can choose to try and find something better.

People are, by our very nature, social creatures. To a greater or lesser degree, we need that interaction.

Go find a kickboxing gym in your town. Do their 1 week/3 class (or whatever they run) trial. Trust me: hitting **** when you are frustrated feels damn fine, and it gets you among people.

And stop making excuses for allowing your lesser traits to define you. 

One, you were enough that your wife said "yes". 

Two, it has to be unattractive as hell to your wife. 

Three, be like Nike...just ****ing do it.

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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Frustrated_Hubs said:


> I'm puzzled by all this. On the one hand her happiness about the MC session booked for Friday I felt was a really good sign, but then her indifference over my changes is confusing at best. Hopefully Friday will shed some light on everything.



Well, that throws your plan partially out of the window. She either doesn't care or she knows what you are doing and she doesn't care. So, she doesn't care... :grin2: or she is waiting to see how far you are prepared to take it. When I did to my wife, she didn't seem to care either. She just did what she always did... not to talk to me.. :laugh:


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## Frustrated_Hubs (Jun 23, 2018)

farsidejunky said:


> Do you see the self-fulfilling prophecy in what you do?
> 
> "People are going to forget me, so I'm not going to engage them. Damn it sucks to be forgettable."
> 
> ...


Its not a shyness that I feel, but something else. If a waiter brings me the wrong food, or its cold, or someone jumps in front of me in a queue, or anything like that I will speak up because that is what I'm supposed to do. About 18 months ago I took part in a 'flash-mob' type dancing thing for my sisters birthday and had no issue dancing around the busy street like a prat (a choreographed prat, but a prat nonetheless) with everyone watching and filming because it was what was expected of me.

The situations that fill me with these feelings are when people want idle chat. Unstructured interactions with no guidance or expectations I find horrible. If I was asked to give a presentation for work on a subject I know in front of a large group of people, fine no problem, I know the subject and it is expected of me to talk about it. However, if I was just asked to take some clients out and entertain them for the evening that would be hell for me and I would have to decline.

This being said, if I were to join a group I would be able to go and I would complete whatever challenges or tasks the particular group comprises off without issue. The issue for me would be the chatting with other group members before, during or after. 

I know I need to put myself in these situations more and really push myself to make conversation.


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## Frustrated_Hubs (Jun 23, 2018)

In Absentia said:


> Well, that throws your plan partially out of the window. She either doesn't care or she knows what you are doing and she doesn't care. So, she doesn't care... :grin2: or she is waiting to see how far you are prepared to take it. When I did to my wife, she didn't seem to care either. She just did what she always did... not to talk to me.. :laugh:


I realise this. 

As I said in earlier posts I have to try and do all I can to try and repair our relationship. It may well be (and probably is) too late and if that is the case so be it.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Frustrated_Hubs said:


> I realise this.
> 
> As I said in earlier posts I have to try and do all I can to try and repair our relationship. It may well be (and probably is) too late and if that is the case so be it.


You go bro, but always put yourself first...


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Frustrated_Hubs said:


> Its not a shyness that I feel, but something else. If a waiter brings me the wrong food, or its cold, or someone jumps in front of me in a queue, or anything like that I will speak up because that is what I'm supposed to do. About 18 months ago I took part in a 'flash-mob' type dancing thing for my sisters birthday and had no issue dancing around the busy street like a prat (a choreographed prat, but a prat nonetheless) with everyone watching and filming because it was what was expected of me.


Of course. You were able to "blend in". 



Frustrated_Hubs said:


> The situations that fill me with these feelings are when people want idle chat. Unstructured interactions with no guidance or expectations I find horrible. If I was asked to give a presentation for work on a subject I know in front of a large group of people, fine no problem, I know the subject and it is expected of me to talk about it. However, if I was just asked to take some clients out and entertain them for the evening that would be hell for me and I would have to decline.


This is something to consider going to counseling over. While you should not necessarily expect to enjoy it, you should not have such an overwhelming fear of it, either.



Frustrated_Hubs said:


> This being said, if I were to join a group I would be able to go and I would complete whatever challenges or tasks the particular group comprises off without issue. The issue for me would be the chatting with other group members before, during or after.
> 
> I know I need to put myself in these situations more and really push myself to make conversation.


Do you think the situations are really as bad as you believe? I would bet your lack of participation in such things has amplified the illusion of difficulty.

Either way, from here forward, when you start making bull**** excuses, just say one word to yourself:

Nike

Then jump in with both feet.


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## Frustrated_Hubs (Jun 23, 2018)

farsidejunky said:


> Of course. You were able to "blend in".
> 
> Not really, my brothers and I started off the dance alone then others joined in. Like I say when I have been given instruction I'm fine.
> 
> ...


I shall try to be more Nike!


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## Kirk401 (Jun 3, 2018)

I had issues years ago in my marriage. I had all kinds of theories and of course they were all her fault - cheating, mid life issues, hormones, and so on as to why. Ended up on forum like this and got lots of advice such as - duh she's cheating divorce her, man up and kick the b*tch out, sit her down and tell her what she needs to be doing in the marriage and threaten divorce!! It was all worth as much as a I paid for it …. nothing. Everyone's relationship and situation is so totally different it can't be solved on a message forum. So anyway one night I got all paranoid, mad and then REALLY screwed things up bad. Thankfully before I gave up I talked to a professional with decades of experience with marriage issues (I had to pay for but it was well worth it) and worked things out. Now its better then its been in years. Not saying all marriage issues can be solved but in my case I was at a point I thought it was over and over time it was resolved. 

Only input I would give is talk to someone yourself , be it a marriage coach, councillor or whatever. Explain your situation and talk about it. Sounds like you have hit a bump recently and need to figure somethings out. 


I find it interesting the range of opinions and expectations people have. No sex for a while and automatically its divorce and move on like so much now days in our throw away society. Or the expectation the wife has a her "duties" (sex) and if she is not doing them its divorce.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

FH,
These last few posts are golden. Totally transparent, highly self aware AND rich in specifics. 

There are books written about strategies for dealing with unstructured social interaction. Your social anxiety is not rare. 












Frustrated_Hubs said:


> Its not a shyness that I feel, but something else. If a waiter brings me the wrong food, or its cold, or someone jumps in front of me in a queue, or anything like that I will speak up because that is what I'm supposed to do. About 18 months ago I took part in a 'flash-mob' type dancing thing for my sisters birthday and had no issue dancing around the busy street like a prat (a choreographed prat, but a prat nonetheless) with everyone watching and filming because it was what was expected of me.
> 
> The situations that fill me with these feelings are when people want idle chat. Unstructured interactions with no guidance or expectations I find horrible. If I was asked to give a presentation for work on a subject I know in front of a large group of people, fine no problem, I know the subject and it is expected of me to talk about it. However, if I was just asked to take some clients out and entertain them for the evening that would be hell for me and I would have to decline.
> 
> ...


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## Frustrated_Hubs (Jun 23, 2018)

I'm back again and wanted to get the opinions of any people here who have been through MC on how our first appointment went.

I found the whole process rather peculiar, perhaps its the unfamiliarity of if all but it seemed odd.

When we first got there the therapist sat us both down and asked us both why we thought we had made the appointment. We spent 10 minutes or so explaining our current situation, and when I say _we_ it was predominately me, W was rather withdrawn as I explained.

After this initial 10 minutes the therapist asked if I would mind sitting out in reception for a while so she could run through my Wife's version of events. I'm guessing she had read that with me doing most of the talking during the opening introduction that my Wife had different views on what was going on. Fair enough I thought, not having me present for a while may get my Wife to open up and clue the therapist in on her mindset.

45 minutes I was sat in reception waiting before I was summoned back in. There was then just 5 minutes left of our allotted hour which was spent making our next appointment.

That is 45 minutes of a 1 hour couples counselling session where only 1/2 of us were present. I will be honest I was more than a little miffed about the whole thing. There was no mention from the therapist as to why I had been excluded from the majority of the meeting, nor will my Wife divulge what was discussed during this time.

Is it normal for first sessions to go this way? I get that the therapist needs to hear both sides of any issues and if she felt that she was only getting one side removing me for a while makes sense, but for the bulk of our appointment?

We have our next appointment booked for this Friday, hopefully some light will be shed on Friday's meeting.

Aside from the MC everything else is as was, my Wife seems no different following her therapy session. Still as indifferent over the changes I have made as ever, still no reactions.

On a side note, I have been looking into Social Anxiety a little more and *wow* it is way more prevalent than I had ever realised. Ordered a few books online over the weekend to have a read through. To be honest I thought about booking separate counselling for myself for this but we cannot really afford both right now.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

It happens.

45 minutes is a substantial amount of things to discuss. Seems to be quite a bit she ISN'T willing to communicate with you.

"Based on the length of time you spoke to my wife one-on-one, there appears to be significant issues my wife has been thus far willing discuss. I can't fix something that I don't know is broken."

Beyond that, stand firm. Know your principles and do not deviate, whatever they may be.



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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Frustrated_Hubs said:


> I'm back again and wanted to get the opinions of any people here who have been through MC on how our first appointment went.
> 
> I found the whole process rather peculiar, perhaps its the unfamiliarity of if all but it seemed odd.
> 
> ...


Be patient, my friend. I have to say that it's heartening that a man is so engaged with his relationship that he is willing to go to such lengths as you have and are willing to go, such as reading books, hanging in there with your wife and booking an MC. 

It's very difficult to be in this stage of MC where you have a spouse who is not communicating as openly and it requires a LOT of patience. I agree with keeping on going with things that interest you and poring your energy into activities that will create self-satisfactory accomplishments for YOU - hobbies, interests, activities that release some of the pent up physical and emotional energy you have - whatever form that takes for you. For instance, I find that a good ol' exhausting workout activities releases feel-good endorphins for me. 

You can only change you. Keep the faith. Change is scary but it's also evolutionary and leads you to a higher self that will definitely catapult you out of the rut you are in. It opens your mind to the new. It's scary because: what if you don't like the *new*? 

But, OTOH - what if you DO like the *new*?

When my hubby and I went to MC, I actually embraced that he had more sessions that me. I am a talker and he is not. He needed to have more than I did. I am more self-analyzing and introspective. Thank goodness your wife is talking. You guys are clearly stuck and the only way out is to DO something. 

I applaud both of you. THIS is the hard work of and the point in marriage where 50% of the married population quit. If both of you are fighting for change, you are way ahead of the quitters. 

So put on your muck shoes and be ready for the hard work. Never ring the bell.


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## Frustrated_Hubs (Jun 23, 2018)

farsidejunky said:


> It happens.
> 
> 45 minutes is a substantial amount of things to discuss. Seems to be quite a bit she ISN'T willing to communicate with you.
> 
> ...


45 mintues is a damn long time, but I'm unsure how I feel about that. On the one hand it means she opened up to the therapist which implies she is taking things seriously and it gives the impression she too wants to try and rebuild our relationship. On the other hand however 45 chuffing minutes. How much has she bottled away and doesn't feel comfortable talking to me about, and why.

I just hope that round 2 will shed a little light on what her thought processes are.


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## Frustrated_Hubs (Jun 23, 2018)

happiness27 said:


> Be patient, my friend. I have to say that it's heartening that a man is so engaged with his relationship that he is willing to go to such lengths as you have and are willing to go, such as reading books, hanging in there with your wife and booking an MC.
> 
> It's very difficult to be in this stage of MC where you have a spouse who is not communicating as openly and it requires a LOT of patience. I agree with keeping on going with things that interest you and poring your energy into activities that will create self-satisfactory accomplishments for YOU - hobbies, interests, activities that release some of the pent up physical and emotional energy you have - whatever form that takes for you. For instance, I find that a good ol' exhausting workout activities releases feel-good endorphins for me.
> 
> ...


Thank you @happiness27 

I have to say that is was daunting booking the MC to begin with, but now I'm hopeful about it. Confussed after round 1 but hopeful nonetheless.

I've been working out a lot at home. Bought a bench over the weekend for the weights I got and I'm really enjoying working up a sweat. Between the lifting and improving my diet over the past few weeks I'm feeling much more positive and full of energy. Lost 20lbs too.

I'm under no illusions that this will be a long road, and that there is every chance that the journey will be fruitless. However, if there is the slightest chance that we can turn things around it will be worth every step.


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## Frustrated_Hubs (Jun 23, 2018)

Damn phone decided I need to post this reply a ton


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## Frustrated_Hubs (Jun 23, 2018)

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## Frustrated_Hubs (Jun 23, 2018)

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## Frustrated_Hubs (Jun 23, 2018)

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## Tasorundo (Apr 1, 2012)

How was the 2nd session? Anything interesting to report?


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## Frustrated_Hubs (Jun 23, 2018)

Tasorundo said:


> How was the 2nd session? Anything interesting to report?


Well, that depends on your definition of interesting I suppose.

Apparently I should be more patient with my wife. She feels that I'm distant and that all I want is sex. The therapist said that I shouldn't be so focused on the sexual aspects of our relationship and I should try and help out more around the home, I think she used the phrase Happy Wife Happy Life at one point.

I lost my sh!t a little in the session if I'm being honest. I told the therapist that I'm at work all day and always cook tea when I get home, while shes at home all day long, why should I then be cleaning up, ironing, or whatever when she has the whole day free to do these things while I keep a roof over our heads.

I also asked the therapist what a marriage is without sexual contact, we are not just roommates. She responded by saying that my statement wad just proving her point that I focus on that element too much. WTF.... I think we may have a dud of a therapist.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Frustrated_Hubs said:


> I think we may have a dud of a therapist.


Is it a male or a female therapist? When I went to IC, I had a man as a therapist and, boy, he just didn't want to listen about my sexual frustration...


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## Frustrated_Hubs (Jun 23, 2018)

In Absentia said:


> Is it a male or a female therapist? When I went to IC, I had a man as a therapist and, boy, he just didn't want to listen about my sexual frustration...


Ours is female.

It has left me in a bit of a quandary as my Wife really likes her (no surprise really eh.) so if I suggest switching therapists then that will be construed as me giving up on MC, but I'm unsure whether to keep going. It ain't cheap and I don't want to keeping paying someone who just reinforces one side of the relationship without consideration for the other (and yes I would have the same view if the therapist was taking the same stance with my wife as she is taking with me, we need a neutral party).

We are going back for round 3 a week on Friday this time, but if it is more of the same not sure what to do from there.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Frustrated_Hubs said:


> Ours is female.
> 
> It has left me in a bit of a quandary as my Wife really likes her (no surprise really eh.) so if I suggest switching therapists then that will be construed as me giving up on MC, but I'm unsure whether to keep going. It ain't cheap and I don't want to keeping paying someone who just reinforces one side of the relationship without consideration for the other (and yes I would have the same view if the therapist was taking the same stance with my wife as she is taking with me, we need a neutral party).
> 
> We are going back for round 3 a week on Friday this time, but if it is more of the same not sure what to do from there.


we had 3 rounds of MC and the (female) therapist was useless.... she kept concentrating on irrelevant stuff, I guess building towards some kind of program to do together to overcome our differences. I couldn't care less and luckily my wife thought the same. Her approach was too convoluted. Wasted money. On the way home, my wife said to me: I guess we are together because of the children. No! we are in a sexless marriage and you don't want to fix it because, I suppose, you don't like me any more but can't be bothered to tell me... anyway, we stayed together, after splitting up for 3 days. I could not leave my kids.


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## Frustrated_Hubs (Jun 23, 2018)

In Absentia said:


> we had 3 rounds of MC and the (female) therapist was useless.... she kept concentrating on irrelevant stuff, I guess building towards some kind of program to do together to overcome our differences. I couldn't care less and luckily my wife thought the same. Her approach was too convoluted. Wasted money. On the way home, my wife said to me: I guess we are together because of the children.* No! we are in a sexless marriage and you don't want to fix it because, I suppose, you don't like me any more but can't be bothered to tell me... *anyway, we stayed together, after splitting up for 3 days. I could not leave my kids.


So sorry to hear about your situation.

How did she respond to the bolded above? I have said similar to my wife in the past to which all I got back was, I'm being daft.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Frustrated_Hubs said:


> So sorry to hear about your situation.
> 
> How did she respond to the bolded above? I have said similar to my wife in the past to which all I got back was, I'm being daft.


she said that we were "sexually incompatible"... which is a bit strange, since we had great sex for about 10 years after we met. Later on, she said that my constant "hounding" had put her off sex with me. I was asking for sex twice a month... :smile2: But I know what happened: she fell out of love with me and probably lost her respect for me, for reasons I don't know. She never told me. I guess I was too beta, not man enough, who knows? I'm nice guy, always helped, cooked, loved my wife and kids. I could not understand the rejection. She still hasn't really told me the real reason. But see above... :laugh:


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## Tatsuhiko (Jun 21, 2016)

All I can tell you is that this idea that more housework will get you more intimacy or make your wife happier is BS. You can find the evidence in multiple stories in this forum, written by other frustrated husbands. Your therapist sounds like an amateur who is more committed to women's rights than fixing your marriage. The notion that you're supposed to cook and clean to earn sex while your wife sits on the couch watching TV is ridiculous.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Tatsuhiko said:


> All I can tell you is that this idea that more housework will get you more intimacy or make your wife happier is BS. You can find the evidence in multiple stories in this forum, written by other frustrated husbands. Your therapist sounds like an amateur who is more committed to women's rights than fixing your marriage. The notion that you're supposed to cook and clean to earn sex while your wife sits on the couch watching TV is ridiculous.


 I agree with this 100%. If you meet all the goals, she will move the goalposts. That is what they all do. And yes I said they all. If she wanted sex with you it wouldn't matter if there were dishes in the sink. This whole do more housework do more the US do more that is just a smoke screen for 99% of these women. Besides, who wants to be in a position where they have to earn sex?


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Tatsuhiko said:


> All I can tell you is that this idea that more housework will get you more intimacy or make your wife happier is BS. You can find the evidence in multiple stories in this forum, written by other frustrated husbands. Your therapist sounds like an amateur who is more committed to women's rights than fixing your marriage. The notion that you're supposed to cook and clean to earn sex while your wife sits on the couch watching TV is ridiculous.


I agree too. It will work if your wife is still in love/attracted to you. If not, you can do whatever you like, she will never change her tune. She will give you pity sex - the bare minimum - to keep you there and keep the family together. A woman who respects and loves her husband will have sex with him, unless he's turned into some kind of cruel monster or stops washing... :laugh:


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

If a woman is going to with hold something out of resentment, it's going to be something she doesn't like anyway. For example, I admit that after years of sexlessness and other issues, I resisted going to the grocery store and less we really needed something important. My husband had a particular soda he drank like it was going out of style. If we still had plenty of food but he was out of soda, I wasn't gonna go to the store because I hate going to the grocery store anyway. A woman who actually likes 6 and has a healthy sex drive is not going to with hold sex as punishment because it would be punishing herself. So these women who moan that they would love to have sex with their husband if he just wasn't so mean or thoughtless… bull. You don't punish yourself. You just don't wanna have sex with your husband.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

personofinterest said:


> You just don't wanna have sex with your husband.


Why? What would put you off? What are the main reasons? As a man, I'm curious.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

In Absentia said:


> Why? What would put you off? What are the main reasons? As a man, I'm curious.


Well, I admit I am speculating, as I have a normal-high drive and would have stayed single if I wasn't interested in sex.

But...

I can only guess that sex is not important to these women, but that they wanted security, companionship, and kids. So they married, thinking that they could get what THEY wanted and somehow deflect and circumvent the sex thing.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Frustrated_Hubs said:


> Ours is female.
> 
> It has left me in a bit of a quandary as my Wife really likes her (no surprise really eh.) so if I suggest switching therapists then that will be construed as me giving up on MC, but I'm unsure whether to keep going. It ain't cheap and I don't want to keeping paying someone who just reinforces one side of the relationship without consideration for the other (and yes I would have the same view if the therapist was taking the same stance with my wife as she is taking with me, we need a neutral party).
> 
> We are going back for round 3 a week on Friday this time, but if it is more of the same not sure what to do from there.


Unfortunately, you have experienced the BAD side of MC. This is what I and everyone else talk about when we talk about the bad counselors out there.

Now, 1) MC should never take one side, 2) She should not be biased toward female and almost all are 3) Should not avoid the problem (i.e., no intimacy)

You have a bad counselor there, and that will do not good. 

The best you can do is ask, "Ok, why not intimacy in our marriage?" And, you may have to push a little.

Of course and reasonable counselor would have asked that question in the first session and addressed it...


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

personofinterest said:


> Well, I admit I am speculating, as I have a normal-high drive and would have stayed single if I wasn't interested in sex.
> 
> But...
> 
> I can only guess that sex is not important to these women, but that they wanted security, companionship, and kids. So they married, thinking that they could get what THEY wanted and somehow deflect and circumvent the sex thing.


thanks... I was wondering more about losing interest in sex after a healthy sex life in the early stages... what changes? I suppose the reasons can be multiple and concurrent... :smile2:


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

In Absentia said:


> thanks... I was wondering more about losing interest in sex after a healthy sex life in the early stages... what changes? I suppose the reasons can be multiple and concurrent... :smile2:


1. Bait and switch - whether conscious or unconscious
2. Goal of children has been attained so sex is lower on the priority list
3. Hormonal or physiological changes
4. Resentment due to bad marital habits on the part of the husband

I put these in order of likelihood from highest to lowest.


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## Kirk401 (Jun 3, 2018)

Wow your wife was willing to go. Years back with my marriage troubles my wife was basically done and we hardly even talked. She thought it was pointless going to see someone! I however did talk to someone just by phone. 1st couple sessions were maybe like 45 minutes i think but then I'd book shorter and less frequent ones. I've read some feel couple marriage counseling at least at the start can be counter productive if all it is rehashing things in the past over and over. 

Odds are it took years to get in the spot you are now. So it's not going to get resolved or better in a matter of a few months.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

personofinterest said:


> 1. Bait and switch - whether conscious or unconscious
> 2. Goal of children has been attained so sex is lower on the priority list
> 3. Hormonal or physiological changes
> 4. Resentment due to bad marital habits on the part of the husband
> ...


Thanks... I've never seen a real case of bait and switch, but the others seem reasonable... :smile2:


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

You allowed the MC to frame the discussion.

"For several months leading up to this, my actions have made it clear that her needs are a priority to me. She has done the exact opposite, while avoiding any reasoning as to why. That tells me all I need to know about her commitment level. When she is ready to have a mutually fulfilling relationship, where we prioritize each other, she will have to show through action that she is willing to do so."

Do not let the MC sell you on an idea that goes against your boundaries.

ETA: Do not forget the Foundation of your approach:

"Never make someone a priority when all you are to them is an option."

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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

In Absentia said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> > You just don't wanna have sex with your husband.
> ...


Because you aren't firing her dopamine. All the beta boxes are checked but the alpha boxes are all unchecked. She doesn't find you attractive...you are like her brother and that's gross to have sex with her brother! And if they say they are bored, it may well be already over.

Usually these same 'unsexual' women have no issue finding another suitable male to ride like a mechanical bull while you are away. Or sometimes, very rarely, they just really are unsexual, either way you aren't important enough for her to worry about your needs over her own. I say it's rare because I'm sure you were wearing the mattress thin before marriage.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Kirk401 said:


> Wow your wife was willing to go. Years back with my marriage troubles my wife was basically done and we hardly even talked. She thought it was pointless going to see someone! I however did talk to someone just by phone. 1st couple sessions were maybe like 45 minutes i think but then I'd book shorter and less frequent ones. I've read some feel couple marriage counseling at least at the start can be counter productive if all it is rehashing things in the past over and over.
> 
> Odds are it took years to get in the spot you are now. So it's not going to get resolved or better in a matter of a few months.


But this right here is the problem, "rehashing events". 

The problem is, was for me, that some events have to be rehashed and understood. The concept of --OK everyone will behave better and what happened in the past does not matter is complete crap.

If there were issues that were unresolved, like infidelity for one, they need to be addressed and understood in a healthy way. 

But they don't want to do that.... Most of them, that lean toward anti male, want to blame the husband.

Problem is that some guys are so stupid that they sit there and take it.


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## Frustrated_Hubs (Jun 23, 2018)

farsidejunky said:


> You allowed the MC to frame the discussion.
> 
> "For several months leading up to this, my actions have made it clear that her needs are a priority to me. She has done the exact opposite, while avoiding any reasoning as to why. That tells me all I need to know about her commitment level. When she is ready to have a mutually fulfilling relationship, where we prioritize each other, she will have to show through action that she is willing to do so."
> 
> ...


I have no experience with these things, is it not on the MC to frame the discussions we have? If we lead the discussions, bring up the suggestions, and talk it out together while she listens I could have gone bought a chuffing cactus to sit in the corner of the room instead.

Like I said, I lost it in the session. She really does boil my water this therapist. The thing is now that I have lost my temper in only our 2nd session, in all likelihood she now views me as an aggressive sex mad prick with anger management issues. At least that's the vibe I'm getting off her.

She ain't selling sh!t to me FJ. I'm going back for round 3 but I think I'm done after that, at least with this therapist.


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## Frustrated_Hubs (Jun 23, 2018)

BluesPower said:


> Unfortunately, you have experienced the BAD side of MC. This is what I and everyone else talk about when we talk about the bad counselors out there.
> 
> Now, 1) MC should never take one side, 2) She should not be biased toward female and almost all are 3) Should not avoid the problem (i.e., no intimacy)


This is exactly how she is. Its infuriating.



BluesPower said:


> The best you can do is ask, "Ok, why not intimacy in our marriage?" And, you may have to push a little.


I will give you a direct quote here, and this is what made me flip my lid: 

_"Intimacy is not the be all and end all of a marriage. A couple in love do not need sexual contact in order to be happy with one another. Your mind is warped to the perception that sex=love and that isn't the case. Your view of marriage is skewed"_

All the while the wife is nodding along. I think I'm ****ing done.

Whats more irritating than anything else is this woman has practised MC for 20+ years and has rave reviews online.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Don't switch therapists. Draw your damn boundaries and stick to them.

"Never make someone a priority when all you are to them is an option."

"MC, since it is clear to me that you are advocating for exactly the opposite, this will be my last session here."

This must be delivered in a calm and rational voice.

I don't think you understand what framing the discussion means. It does not mean that you talk over the counselor, or insist on driving the discussion. When the counselor says something that is not in line with your principles and boundaries, you just simply correct her.

She suggests you're not doing enough around the house?

"Are you suggesting I should prioritize somebody who's unwilling to do so for me?"

She says you haven't been meeting her needs?

"Are you saying that I wasn't doing so up until a few short weeks ago when I had finally had enough?"

She says that you are reinforcing your wife's opinion of being sex-crazed?

"You're not possibly suggesting a healthy marriage should not include a frequent and enjoyable sex life, are you?"

Do you see what I'm doing there? If you allow the counselor to espouse bull**** without reframing the discussion to show it's bull****, then you're going to continue to show yourself to be an angry man because you're not going to know how to address it without frustration.

Also, notice how each one is framed as a rhetorical question. This is how you hold someone accountable.

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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Because you aren't firing her dopamine. All the beta boxes are checked but the alpha boxes are all unchecked. She doesn't find you attractive...you are like her brother and that's gross to have sex with her brother! And if they say they are bored, it may well be already over.
> 
> Usually these same 'unsexual' women have no issue finding another suitable male to ride like a mechanical bull while you are away. Or sometimes, very rarely, they just really are unsexual, either way you aren't important enough for her to worry about your needs over her own. I say it's rare because I'm sure you were wearing the mattress thin before marriage.


I came to that conclusion too... there are other factors (ADs, menopause, etc.), but if she still loved me and found me attractive as a person, she would have sex with me, now. You know, until a few months ago she did and she always said she loved me after that. Not sure how I can I be attractive one day and not the other (I always behave the same). Why does she keep changing her mind? Maybe she feels sorry for me. But why say she loves me? 

Anyway... this is not my thread, so I'll stop here...


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Frustrated_Hubs said:


> _"Intimacy is not the be all and end all of a marriage. A couple in love do not need sexual contact in order to be happy with one another. Your mind is warped to the perception that sex=love and that isn't the case. Your view of marriage is skewed"_


You're response should have been, "It is in my marriage."

Tell your wife that this is not the kind of marriage you signed up for. You get it that that is the way that she feels about it but it's not the way you do. I would also tell the counselor that if you go back. Tell her to go find a different man who would be happy with that arrangement. (Good luck with that. There out there but there are not many.)


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Frustrated_Hubs said:


> This is exactly how she is. Its infuriating.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yep. Be done with this counselor.

"MC, while a fulfilling marriage for you and my wife may not include a sexual relationship, it is essential for me. Additionally, we get to choose what types of things we are willing to accept in relationships. If this continues, I will accept that my marriage is over and act accordingly."

For the record, when my wife and I went to our MC during the sexless bout, the MC looked at my wife and told her directly and firmly, "If you don't have sex with your husband, you will lose him." She was stunned.

I do not hold out much hope for this situation.

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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Frustrated_Hubs said:


> BluesPower said:
> 
> 
> > Unfortunately, you have experienced the BAD side of MC. This is what I and everyone else talk about when we talk about the bad counselors out there.
> ...


Might as well castrate yourself. I hope you fired her. MC is kind of a joke, most of these people are more unqualified than the average Joe that has been through it and lived it. If anyone goes to a MC to try to get their wife to have sex with them, then you are wasting money.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

farsidejunky said:


> Don't switch therapists. Draw your damn boundaries and stick to them.
> 
> "Never make someone a priority when all you are to them is an option."
> 
> ...


This is exactly correct. You need to learn to advocate for yourself within the framework that you are participating in. That will eliminate there ability to just shoot you down because you don't speak in the same way they do. 

However it's probably all a lost cause.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

sokillme said:


> You're response should have been, "It is in my marriage."
> 
> Tell your wife that this is not the kind of marriage you signed up for. You get it that that is the way that she feels about it but it's not the way you do. I would also tell the counselor that if you go back. Tell her to go find a different man who would be happy with that arrangement. (Good luck with that. There out there but there are not many.)


This.

FH, this is likely going to be the fight of your life. Unfortunately, you are going to have to go completely against your own nature and be overly assertive.

As you discuss these things, you need to make it abundantly clear, in a calm manner, that there is zero room for compromise in this.

"I'm not willing to be a part of a marriage where sex is not a priority."

this is where you need to prepare yourself for the inevitable, "What if she were sick or injured" strawman argument.

"Considering she is neither, that line of thought is pointless. However, if she were, then there are several different ways for sexually pleasuring each other. Without legitimate effort into any of those other means, I would see it exactly the same way."

FH, there are some things in life that allow room for negotiation. There are other things where you must be absolutely rigid, or the long-term repercussions only equal more pain. This one falls under the latter.

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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

farsidejunky said:


> this is where you need to prepare yourself for the inevitable, "What if she were sick or injured" strawman argument.


Response: "Are you telling me she is sick or injured? If so what has she done to heal from this injury? If not then I don't want to waste time on hypotheticals. We can talk about that when she IS sex or injured, and even in that cause I would have an expectancy that she would work to get better.

The bottom line is this is either a priority or I'm done."


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Frustrated_Hubs said:


> I have no experience with these things, is it not on the MC to frame the discussions we have? If we lead the discussions, bring up the suggestions, and talk it out together while she listens I could have gone bought a chuffing cactus to sit in the corner of the room instead.
> 
> Like I said, I lost it in the session. She really does boil my water this therapist. The thing is now that I have lost my temper in only our 2nd session, *in all likelihood she now views me as an aggressive sex mad prick with anger management issues*. At least that's the vibe I'm getting off her.
> 
> She ain't selling sh!t to me FJ. I'm going back for round 3 but I think I'm done after that, at least with this therapist.


Actually, she view you like this before you walked in the door. They all do of that ilk...


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Frustrated_Hubs said:


> This is exactly how she is. Its infuriating.
> 
> I will give you a direct quote here, and this is what made me flip my lid:
> 
> ...


I just read this one, wow. 

That is complete and total BS at the highest level. 

This is exactly what I and other are talking about. Utter foolishness. 

I would not go back...


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

One more statement that helps you navigate through the bull**** smoke screen:

"Being that I'm such a sex-crazed maniac, why does she want to remain married to me? We should both do her a favor and expedite the divorce so she can get away from such an abusive jerk."

Again, delivered in a calm manner.

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## Frustrated_Hubs (Jun 23, 2018)

sokillme said:


> This is exactly correct. You need to learn to advocate for yourself within the framework that you are participating in. That will eliminate there ability to just shoot you down because you don't speak in the same way they do.
> 
> However it's probably *all a lost cause*.


I am going for the third session as a booked three sessions for a block price. 

Seeing my wife in the last session nodding along to everything this stupid woman had to say has had a huge impact on me.

These 4 words bolded above have been all that have running through my head all weekend. I think our last session will be a waste of time, I think its all a waste of time.

I'm not even sure why I'm bothering any more.


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## Kirk401 (Jun 3, 2018)

BluesPower said:


> But this right here is the problem, "rehashing events".
> 
> The problem is, was for me, that some events have to be rehashed and understood. The concept of --OK everyone will behave better and what happened in the past does not matter is complete crap.
> 
> .


Once both understand what the issue was what's the point of continue to bring it up over and over again?? 

A guy can't change something he did 15 years ago so what is the point of continue to rehash it over and over? What's done is done move on.


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## Kirk401 (Jun 3, 2018)

Frustrated_Hubs said:


> I am going for the third session as a booked three sessions for a block price.
> 
> Seeing my wife in the last session nodding along to everything this stupid woman had to say has had a huge impact on me.
> 
> ...


I haven't read all the posts. But I got this from the 1st one. 

_My wife, the love of my life, wants nothing to do with me. Since we discussed all the issues in our marriage 2 months ago (almost all intimacy related issues) we have had sex once, even then she had to be drunk.

_


Did the issues ( I assume her's?) have merit and if so were they addressed? 

Likely the lack of physical or emotional intimacy didn't just happen over night. There must be a underlying issues between you that are the root cause.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Frustrated_Hubs said:


> I am going for the third session as a booked three sessions for a block price.
> 
> Seeing my wife in the last session nodding along to everything this stupid woman had to say has had a huge impact on me.
> 
> ...


Well you owe it to at least yourself to say such in your next counseling session. Something like, "Our last session really solidified for me that our priorities in our marriage are not the same and probably never will be. I am just not willing to accept a marriage where intimacy it not an absolute necessity." Then I would thank the counselor for bringing clarity to the situation and watch her eyes bug out.

Point is I think you should say as such in the session. The session is about trying to fix your marriage or not, it's not about telling you your needs are unrealistic. When honestly they are not, the idea is just silly. It's hard to believe that this counselor could actually advocate for that, but I guess it's possible. Don't see how she would be successful however. I wonder if there is some miscommunication. 

Saying how you are feeling will ether clear that up or at least let you end things with no regrets.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Frustrated_Hubs said:


> _"Intimacy is not the be all and end all of a marriage. A couple in love do not need sexual contact in order to be happy with one another. Your mind is warped to the perception that sex=love and that isn't the case. Your view of marriage is skewed"_
> 
> All the while the wife is nodding along. I think I'm ****ing done.


A couple things FH.

The guy that pushes the vacuum cleaner more and better, never got laid more by his wife! 

Your latest description of the MC session is really disappointing. I'd be close to done with her too. I don't understand what her angle or strategy might be.

You might just start the next session right off the bat by apologizing for losing your cool. And then immediately follow up with something along the lines of the following:

"I am not ashamed of wanting a sexual relationship with my wife. I think it is an essential part of a healthy marriage. And if I am not getting intimacy or sexual contact with my wife, I will tell you right now I am not going to be happy with the relationship and it won't be healthy from my perspective. 

The difference to me between being married and just being roommates is sex/intimacy. I did not sign up to be roommates. If that is the kind of marital relationship that my W really wants then maybe she should go find some other man because that's not me and I am never going to change. So, if you think that counseling us or my W that a sexless marriage is somehow normal or that someday I am ever going to be ok with it, then you are mistaken and wasting our time." 

Simply put, it is a boundary and you need to make that clear. The IC should respect that. If she doesn't then find another one.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

farsidejunky said:


> this is where you need to prepare yourself for the inevitable, "What if she were sick or injured" strawman argument.
> 
> "Considering she is neither, that line of thought is pointless. However, if she were, then there are several different ways for sexually pleasuring each other. Without legitimate effort into any of those other means, I would see it exactly the same way."


This X 1000

W was shocked, looked at me like the anti-christ when I told her, "you know that is an interesting question because there is a well known couple/moderator on TAM that has dealt with that very thing. His W still had hands and a mouth and took care of him." 

Apparently I am a selfish, sex addicted pr!ck for thinking like that...


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Kirk401 said:


> Once both understand what the issue was what's the point of continue to bring it up over and over again??
> 
> A guy can't change something he did 15 years ago so what is the point of continue to rehash it over and over? What's done is done move on.


The point is that if it is still an issue for someone, then it was not resolved and really not understood. 

Example, if you cheated and got caught and years later it is an issue for her, with few exceptions, for HER it was not resolved. 

And yes, at some point, you can try to move past it, but not until it really is understood and resolved if possible. 

I am not saying that it is perfect, and that you don't have to move on at some point, but many MC's won't even try to deal with issues that NEED to be dealt with. 

Like this thread, that MC is completely full of crap, a lot of them are. Who in the hell thinks that a marriage which is supposed to be a romantic relationship does not have to include sex?????


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Frustrated_Hubs said:


> I am going for the third session as a booked three sessions for a block price.
> 
> Seeing my wife in the last session nodding along to everything this stupid woman had to say has had a huge impact on me.
> 
> ...


Well, you have soldiered on. Maybe you can be more assertive and ask some of the questions that are being suggested. 

Sometimes, these types of MC's really have no answer for realistic assertive questions. And they look stupid. 

If they have any intellectual honesty at all, they will admit that you have a point. 

But that may not work, but this MC is a loon, not doubt about that. 

On the other hand, I don't want to kick you when you are down, but you were told that your wife DOES NOT WANT TO HAVE SEX WITH YOU, no matter what the reason, she does not. 

Most of us have thought that you were pissing in the wind from the start...


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## Frustrated_Hubs (Jun 23, 2018)

Thank you all cor hour responses. I will take them into account for the next session. It will also be my last session, at least witb this therapist. Its already paid for so I will for sure be going.

I just hope I cam hold myself back from flying off the handle again with the MC.



BluesPower said:


> Most of us have thought that you were pissing in the wind from the start...


This is how it has felt too. I knew going into MC it was likely a fruitless excersize, but as I said before I have to be sure for myself that I did all I could before letting go.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

I'm sorry your experience with IC hasn't been a good one so far. Do your absolute best to remain calm. There is no good reason to fly off the handle.

Keep saying "I am not ok with this" and if they ask you to explain, then do it. 

Keep in mind that your feelings are every bit as valid as your W's. 

If you feel the counselor is attacking you, isn't being fair with you or is only taking your W's side then just say that. Speak your truth.

If the counselor doesn't catch herself and re-evaluate her approach then saying "I am done here" and leaving is a perfectly reasonable response.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Frustrated_Hubs said:


> Thank you all cor hour responses. I will take them into account for the next session. It will also be my last session, at least witb this therapist. Its already paid for so I will for sure be going.
> 
> I just hope I cam hold myself back from flying off the handle again with the MC.
> 
> ...


You will if you want this to be productive.

Stop handing your power away as if something as rudimentary as holding your temper in check is dependent on something external to you.

You are better than that. The sooner you believe it, the sooner you will actually see it. 

ETA: Reread the Drama Triangle article just before your appointment. See the roles. 

When you finally, truly understand it, you will be like Neo in The Matrix the moment he realizes he can stop bullets...nothing will get to you...but this requires true acceptance of your situation. 

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## ReturntoZero (Aug 31, 2015)

Tron said:


> This X 1000
> 
> W was shocked, looked at me like the anti-christ when I told her, "you know that is an interesting question because there is a well known couple/moderator on TAM that has dealt with that very thing. His W still had hands and a mouth and took care of him."
> 
> Apparently I am a selfish, sex addicted pr!ck for thinking like that...


What's new?


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## Kirk401 (Jun 3, 2018)

BluesPower said:


> Like this thread, that MC is completely full of crap, a lot of them are. Who in the hell thinks that a marriage which is supposed to be a romantic relationship does not have to include sex?????


I'm sure the MC didn't say the marriage does not need sex EVER. From what I got the MC told the OP he is focused on SEX to = Love. Where as his wife obviously doesn't have that mind set. For many women they need to feel loved 1st to want sex. I know many men don't agree with this and feel a wife has a duty to satisfy their husbands sexual needs no matter how she feels towards her husband on any given day. 

Below you said _you were told your that your wife does not want to have sex with you no matter what the reason, she does not."
_

Where did this come from did the OP's wife say this? 

Sorry maybe I missed something did the OP's wife ever say what her issue was?


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Kirk401 said:


> I'm sure the MC didn't say the marriage does not need sex EVER. From what I got the MC told the OP he is focused on SEX to = Love. Where as his wife obviously doesn't have that mind set. For many women they need to feel loved 1st to want sex. I know many men don't agree with this and feel a wife has a duty to satisfy their husbands sexual needs no matter how she feels towards her husband on any given day.
> 
> Below you said _you were told your that your wife does not want to have sex with you no matter what the reason, she does not."
> _
> ...


While some men do indeed feel this way...the OP has not even hinted at such.

I agree that the poster you quoted above may indeed be seeing something that is not there...but so are you.

Why even introduce information that is not relevant to the OP?

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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

farsidejunky said:


> You will if you want this to be productive.
> 
> Stop handing your power away as if something as rudimentary as holding your temper in check is dependent on something external to you.
> 
> ...


I want to follow up on this FH, because when you speak your truth, it is most effective when it's done in a calm, serious and methodical way. If you have to, take a moment to organize your thoughts. Then lay it on them. 

Don't be a whiny *****. Don't be a victim. Accept that if your W isn't interested in getting on board with fixing things or making them better, then she isn't. That is not a reflection on you, that is on her. You cannot make her do anything. And the consequences will be what they are.


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## Tatsuhiko (Jun 21, 2016)

The answer to the "What if she were sick or injured?" question is easy: If my wife was incapable of having sex with me, I'd hope she could offer me some intimacy or affection, even if only verbal. This would let me know I was desirable to her and that she saw me as a worthy man. But as it stands now, my wife is neither sick nor injured--perfectly capable of physical intimacy--and is making it clear that she doesn't see me as a man worthy of her. It degrades and emasculates me. I feel I am a worthy man, and that I should be given the opportunity to find someone who considers me worthy. I do know that there are women that would consider me to be a "catch". If my wife is not one of them, so be it. 

Go to the final therapy session, calmly make your needs and conditions known. If they follow with more bullshît, just politely excuse yourself and say you don't think the sessions are productive any longer. Tell your wife you'll take a cab and leave the car for her. Honestly, a marriage therapist who expects you to remain happily celibate the rest of your life has chosen the wrong line of work. She's like an auto mechanic that can't replace a wiper blade. I'll bet you that all of the relevant textbooks she studied to get her "degree" emphasized the importance of sex in marriage. I'd challenge someone to find me a book that says otherwise.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I think it’s maybe 6ish years now. PIV was painful to her AND that pain was propagating into the rest of her life - it hurt to ride a bicycle, etc. 

So we switched our routine and that’s that. And fwiw we connected Saturday, and I’ve got a 3 day trip starting tomorrow so M2 informed me that I couldn’t leave the country til after I pleasured her again....

Helps a lot M2 has always understood that sex is important. 




Tron said:


> This X 1000
> 
> W was shocked, looked at me like the anti-christ when I told her, "you know that is an interesting question because there is a well known couple/moderator on TAM that has dealt with that very thing. His W still had hands and a mouth and took care of him."
> 
> Apparently I am a selfish, sex addicted pr!ck for thinking like that...


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## BarbedFenceRider (Mar 30, 2018)

Frustrated_Hubs said:


> Well, that depends on your definition of interesting I suppose.
> 
> Apparently I should be more patient with my wife. She feels that I'm distant and that all I want is sex. The therapist said that I shouldn't be so focused on the sexual aspects of our relationship and I should try and help out more around the home, I think she used the phrase Happy Wife Happy Life at one point.
> 
> ...


---You sir just found a "new ager" therapy guru. lol
I would venture to ask what her ideas on Men in general are....You'd be surprised.
Yup, you need to understand that only YOU can make yourself happy. The problem isn't with you. It's just your idea of a loving relationship with intimacy and touch along with general togetherness. 13 months is enough.

Just remember....You are paying "HER" way in all of this. She hasn't lifted a finger. I still say, 180, and file. She will quickly out herself as a leech for the beta provider. She doesn't value you the way you were raised with family and spouses...


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## BarbedFenceRider (Mar 30, 2018)

farsidejunky said:


> Don't switch therapists. Draw your damn boundaries and stick to them.
> 
> "Never make someone a priority when all you are to them is an option."
> 
> ...



---That my friend is Verbal Judo...You are a master apparently! OP...re-read this again and again. memorize it. Practice it with your co-workers and friends....


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

The long game - in the bedroom includes a substantive dimension I call: celebrating the marriage

I’m going to play this very special game with you, because I’m glad I’m still with YOU




Tatsuhiko said:


> The answer to the "What if she were sick or injured?" question is easy: If my wife was incapable of having sex with me, I'd hope she could offer me some intimacy or affection, even if only verbal. This would let me know I was desirable to her and that she saw me as a worthy man. But as it stands now, my wife is neither sick nor injured--perfectly capable of physical intimacy--and is making it clear that she doesn't see me as a man worthy of her. It degrades and emasculates me. I feel I am a worthy man, and that I should be given the opportunity to find someone who considers me worthy. I do know that there are women that would consider me to be a "catch". If my wife is not one of them, so be it.
> 
> Go to the final therapy session, calmly make your needs and conditions known. If they follow with more bullshît, just politely excuse yourself and say you don't think the sessions are productive any longer. Tell your wife you'll take a cab and leave the car for her. Honestly, a marriage therapist who expects you to remain happily celibate the rest of your life has chosen the wrong line of work. She's like an auto mechanic that can't replace a wiper blade. I'll bet you that all of the relevant textbooks she studied to get her "degree" emphasized the importance of sex in marriage. I'd challenge someone to find me a book that says otherwise.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Kirk,
Did you read the OP? They went 13 MONTHS without sex. 




Kirk401 said:


> I'm sure the MC didn't say the marriage does not need sex EVER. From what I got the MC told the OP he is focused on SEX to = Love. Where as his wife obviously doesn't have that mind set. For many women they need to feel loved 1st to want sex. I know many men don't agree with this and feel a wife has a duty to satisfy their husbands sexual needs no matter how she feels towards her husband on any given day.
> 
> Below you said _you were told your that your wife does not want to have sex with you no matter what the reason, she does not."
> _
> ...


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Tron said:


> This X 1000
> 
> W was shocked, looked at me like the anti-christ when I told her, "you know that is an interesting question because there is a well known couple/moderator on TAM that has dealt with that very thing. His W still had hands and a mouth and took care of him."
> 
> Apparently I am a selfish, sex addicted pr!ck for thinking like that...


Why don't you say Ex-W?


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Kirk401 said:


> I'm sure the MC didn't say the marriage does not need sex EVER. From what I got the MC told the OP he is focused on SEX to = Love. Where as his wife obviously doesn't have that mind set. For many women they need to feel loved 1st to want sex. I know many men don't agree with this and feel a wife has a duty to satisfy their husbands sexual needs no matter how she feels towards her husband on any given day.
> 
> Below you said _you were told your that your wife does not want to have sex with you no matter what the reason, she does not."
> _
> ...


Maybe you should read the OP last quote: "Intimacy is not the be all and end all of a marriage. A couple in love do not need sexual contact in order to be happy with one another. Your mind is warped to the perception that sex=love and that isn't the case. Your view of marriage is skewed"

This quote is completely out of line in every way. This is what insane MC's actually think, some of them are called femanazis. 

Here is the deal, a marriage without sex is not a marriage, it is roommates. This is not the way things should ever be, and frankly anyone that accepts this, male or female, is a fool...


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

FH, what are your interactions with your wife like outside of counseling?

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

BluesPower said:


> Here is the deal, a marriage without sex is not a marriage, it is roommates. This is not the way things should ever be, and frankly anyone that accepts this, male or female, is a fool...


I've been reading a lot of women's fora recently. Trying to gain a bit of insight... :smile2: You will be surprised how many women think it's ok to withhold sex and expect the husband to be ok with it. Even if married, they are not "entitled" to sex and give sex when they feel like. A particular lady was saying they didn't have sex for 14 months and that she expected her husband, if he really loved her, to take it. Because marriage is not just sex. Others were complaining that their husbands would get in a bad mood or leave the room when rejected again. Obviously, this would make them very unattractive, so even less sex. Immature men. Vicious circle. So, it seems to me that some women expect marriage to become roommates at some point and that's a natural course...


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## Kirk401 (Jun 3, 2018)

MEM2020 said:


> Kirk,
> Did you read the OP? They went 13 MONTHS without sex.


Oh sorry I missed that. So confusing with so many posts and quotes and everyone's input.


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## Kirk401 (Jun 3, 2018)

BluesPower said:


> This quote is completely out of line in every way. This is what insane MC's actually think, some of them are called femanazis.
> 
> Here is the deal, a marriage without sex is not a marriage, it is roommates. This is not the way things should ever be, and frankly anyone that accepts this, male or female, is a fool...



So what's your opinion of what was the cause was (OP's wife not wanting to have sex) and will be the out come of this marriage?


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Kirk401 said:


> So what's your opinion of what was the cause was (OP's wife not wanting to have sex) and will be the out come of this marriage?


The cause: selfishness

The outcome: depends on whether she continues to be selfish


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Kirk401 said:


> So what's your opinion of what was the cause was (OP's wife not wanting to have sex) and will be the out come of this marriage?


We can speculate until the cows come home.

The point is that FH has clearly expressed the importance of intimacy, and tried to do things to improve their marriage outside of intimacy.

She has done the opposite, with no real explanation behind what has changed for her.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

BluesPower said:


> Maybe you should read the OP last quote: "Intimacy is not the be all and end all of a marriage. A couple in love do not need sexual contact in order to be happy with one another. *Your mind is warped* to the perception that sex=love and that isn't the case. *Your view of marriage is skewed*"


Sex or not, if your therapist did not stop her right there with his view is DIFFERENT and that you are allowed your feelings and they are valid, then she is a **** therapist regardless of her gender. Our (female) therapist would not have let a statement like that stand.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

farsidejunky said:


> We can speculate until the cows come home.
> 
> The point is that FH has clearly expressed the importance of intimacy, and tried to do things to improve their marriage outside of intimacy.
> 
> ...


I wish people would not use intimacy and sex synonymously. It is a confusion maker.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

In Absentia said:


> I've been reading a lot of women's fora recently. Trying to gain a bit of insight... :smile2: You will be surprised how many women think it's ok to withhold sex and expect the husband to be ok with it. Even if married, they are not "entitled" to sex and give sex when they feel like. A particular lady was saying they didn't have sex for 14 months and that she expected her husband, if he really loved her, to take it. Because marriage is not just sex. Others were complaining that their husbands would get in a bad mood or leave the room when rejected again. Obviously, this would make them very unattractive, so even less sex. Immature men. Vicious circle. So, it seems to me that some women expect marriage to become roommates at some point and that's a natural course...


I know that some women think this way, and they wonder why their husbands cheat on them. 

If my Ex had ever been stupid enough to with hold sex, she would have been out on her ear.

These are women that do not love their husbands btw...


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Kirk401 said:


> So what's your opinion of what was the cause was (OP's wife not wanting to have sex) and will be the out come of this marriage?


My Opinion, just like every other man in this situation is this: His wife does not love him, she has no attraction to him sexually in any way, and she is too chicken S*** to file for divorce or tell him the truth.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

A friend of my GF regularly withholds sex from her husband, she just found out her husband has cheated on her 3x since marraige. My gut tells me she will reward him with HB for the next few months and then the sex blackmail will continue.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

In Absentia said:


> I've been reading a lot of women's fora recently. Trying to gain a bit of insight... :smile2: You will be surprised how many women think it's ok to withhold sex and expect the husband to be ok with it. Even if married, they are not "entitled" to sex and give sex when they feel like. A particular lady was saying they didn't have sex for 14 months and that she expected her husband, if he really loved her, to take it. Because marriage is not just sex. Others were complaining that their husbands would get in a bad mood or leave the room when rejected again. Obviously, this would make them very unattractive, so even less sex. Immature men. Vicious circle. So, it seems to me that some women expect marriage to become roommates at some point and that's a natural course...


This is another side to the understanding gap, the opposite of not entitled being just suck it up buttercup. That women have been objects of sex for a long time means that men are somehow bad for wanting a sexual relationship. Once that negative story is stuck in someone's head, it is hard to eradicate. A man has to prove, somehow, that he loves her for not JUST sex by forgoing sex or something. I get it without really getting is. I THINK Passionate Marriage goes into this. 

https://www.amazon.com/Passionate-M...preST=_SY344_BO1,204,203,200_QL70_&dpSrc=srch

Though I don't remember for sure since it is a long time since I read it. But you (one) do (does) wind up in a tug of war to prove the rightness of each position, which does not help.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> I wish people would not use intimacy and sex synonymously. It is a confusion maker.


This is fair. 

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> This is another side to the understanding gap, the opposite of not entitled being just suck it up buttercup. That women have been objects of sex for a long time means that men are somehow bad for wanting a sexual relationship. Once that negative story is stuck in someone's head, it is hard to eradicate. A man has to prove, somehow, that he loves her for not JUST sex by forgoing sex or something. I get it without really getting is. I THINK Passionate Marriage goes into this.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Passionate-M...preST=_SY344_BO1,204,203,200_QL70_&dpSrc=srch
> 
> Though I don't remember for sure since it is a long time since I read it. But you (one) do (does) wind up in a tug of war to prove the rightness of each position, which does not help.


If one's partner wants to engage in this type of tug-of-war, the best thing they can do is simply drop the rope. 

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

NobodySpecial said:


> This is another side to the understanding gap, the opposite of not entitled being just suck it up buttercup. That women have been objects of sex for a long time means that men are somehow bad for wanting a sexual relationship. Once that negative story is stuck in someone's head, it is hard to eradicate. A man has to prove, somehow, that he loves her for not JUST sex by forgoing sex or something. I get it without really getting is. I THINK Passionate Marriage goes into this.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Passionate-M...preST=_SY344_BO1,204,203,200_QL70_&dpSrc=srch
> 
> Though I don't remember for sure since it is a long time since I read it. But you (one) do (does) wind up in a tug of war to prove the rightness of each position, which does not help.


I can understand the 'you just want me for sex' early in a relationship and that's mostly a fair assessment at least for men. But at some point, esp marriage, that just becomes stupid and self defeating. Withhold sex and it will become all about sex like with the OP. And enough rejection, its human nature to check out or give as much as you receive. It's not a rational thought process if you wish to stay married. I think it's more to do with they're just bored (hubby just doesn't light that fire for them anymore).


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

farsidejunky said:


> If one's partner wants to engage in this type of tug-of-war, the best thing they can do is simply drop the rope.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


Often the first step to changing the dynamic as so often described by on SIM. The problem is that once the dynamic is changed, the one person has no idea of or control over the response. That's life I guess.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> I can understand the 'you just want me for sex' early in a relationship and that's mostly a fair assessment at least for men. But at some point, esp marriage, that just *becomes stupid and self defeating*. Withhold sex and it will become all about sex like with the OP. And enough rejection, its human nature to check out or give as much as you receive. It's not a rational thought process if you wish to stay married. I think it's more to do with they're just bored (hubby just doesn't light that fire for them anymore).


I think I am just going to create a macro for typing "understanding gap".  No one wants to be thought of as stupid. Your view/feelings/sense of reality is stupid is not a bid for open honesty. If a person FEELS that the "demands" for sex are clouding out other convos, no matter how long the marriage is, the idea that sex is the One Big Thing of marriage will be there. Not for nothing, how foolish, silly and irrational we women are has been a long part of the societal mantra too.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Yes, withholding sex is stupid. What is the point of proving its not about sex if he is just jumping through BS hoops for sex? Guys just want sex, it's not because they dont love their wife or like doing things for them, but blackmail sex just leads to resentment. Unless its withheld because he was an a-hole or for being a loser and not bringing in the bux.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Yes, withholding sex is stupid. What is the point of proving its not about sex if he is just jumping through BS hoops for sex? Guys just want sex, it's not because they dont love their wife or like doing things for them, but blackmail sex just leads to resentment. Unless its withheld because he was an a-hole or for being a loser and not bringing in the bux.


Good luck with that. I guess you are still holding on to your half of the rope. ^^


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## BarbedFenceRider (Mar 30, 2018)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Yes, withholding sex is stupid. What is the point of proving its not about sex if he is just jumping through BS hoops for sex? Guys just want sex, it's not because they dont love their wife or like doing things for them, but blackmail sex just leads to resentment. Unless its withheld because he was an a-hole or for being a loser and not bringing in the bux.


Not bringing in the bux? WTF is THAT! "I to thee wed and promise to bring in the bux..." lol

Sooo, since I make less than my wife, she can withhold sex from our marriage? As a form of punishment? Or that makes me and others and A-hole? Pray tell and explain that one please. Hopefully I am wrong here.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

farsidejunky said:


> If one's partner wants to engage in this type of tug-of-war, the best thing they can do is simply drop the rope.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


Nah, when I drop my robe, that is when the tugging begins...


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

BarbedFenceRider said:


> Not bringing in the bux? WTF is THAT! "I to thee wed and promise to bring in the bux..." lol
> 
> Sooo, since I make less than my wife, she can withhold sex from our marriage? As a form of punishment? Or that makes me and others and A-hole? Pray tell and explain that one please. Hopefully I am wrong here.


I was thinking more along the lines of a neckbeard millenial who sits around munching on cheetos while playing World of Warcraft all day in pajamas. If this becomes your routine than I can understand why your wife isn't getting all wet for you after working all day to come home to watch you hit level 70 as a warlock as your sole accomplishment for the day. Sadly, I've seen this sad display IRL.

Or telling your wife she is fat and then expecting sex. 

Hope that clarifies.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Frustrated_Hubs said:


> Ours is female.
> 
> It has left me in a bit of a quandary as my Wife really likes her (no surprise really eh.) so if I suggest switching therapists then that will be construed as me giving up on MC, but I'm unsure whether to keep going. It ain't cheap and I don't want to keeping paying someone who just reinforces one side of the relationship without consideration for the other (and yes I would have the same view if the therapist was taking the same stance with my wife as she is taking with me, we need a neutral party).
> 
> We are going back for round 3 a week on Friday this time, but if it is more of the same not sure what to do from there.


This is just making no sense to me. Why isn't the question being asked of the wife in this situation: Why don't you want to have sex with him? - and that answer spoken out in the open between you and your wife? Has that question been asked and answered?

I mean, that's at the heart of the matter isn't it?


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> Often the first step to changing the dynamic as so often described by on SIM. The problem is that once the dynamic is changed, the one person has no idea of or control over the response. That's life I guess.


It is senseless to make that move unless you are prepared for all possible outcomes.

That is why I stress the process and principles so often. If you live rigidly by those few core principles, the people who are compatible with you will naturally remain. Those that don't, won't. 

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

My view of this stuff is a little simplistic. 

1. Most folks getting rejected a lot become anxious and inward facing. When the exact opposite is what’s needed.
2. As an example, when they talk, they talk about the wrong thing - which is what THEY WANT. They do this instead of trying to understand why the other person AVOIDS sex with them. 
3. They focus on mechanics - our sex life sucks - instead of emotions: why have you lost desire for me?
4. They often fixate on: my partner always orgasms therefore sex is always great for them therefore their avoidance of sex is irrational.




NobodySpecial said:


> This is another side to the understanding gap, the opposite of not entitled being just suck it up buttercup. That women have been objects of sex for a long time means that men are somehow bad for wanting a sexual relationship. Once that negative story is stuck in someone's head, it is hard to eradicate. A man has to prove, somehow, that he loves her for not JUST sex by forgoing sex or something. I get it without really getting is. I THINK Passionate Marriage goes into this.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Passionate-M...preST=_SY344_BO1,204,203,200_QL70_&dpSrc=srch
> 
> Though I don't remember for sure since it is a long time since I read it. But you (one) do (does) wind up in a tug of war to prove the rightness of each position, which does not help.


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## Kirk401 (Jun 3, 2018)

MEM2020 said:


> My view of this stuff is a little simplistic.
> 
> 1. Most folks getting rejected a lot become anxious and inward facing. When the exact opposite is what’s needed.
> 2. As an example, when they talk, they talk about the wrong thing - which is what THEY WANT. They do this instead of trying to understand why the other person AVOIDS sex with them.
> ...


 Good points to ponder before jumping to conclusions.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Men pestering and showing immaturity are a massive turn off. Your wife won't have sex with you. You need to show patience and understanding, you need to be caring and loving, but also a real man for dealing with issues in a grown-up way. No sulking, and she will have sex with you. This is what my wife told me... I didn't do any of those... :laugh:


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

IA,
That’s all true. It is ALSO true that sex lies at the intersection of mechanics and emotions. So if your partner is not life styling properly - that often creates internal obstacles for sex. If you are dealing with someone who isn’t exercising because they are depressed. Or who is depressed because they aren’t exercising and being productive, that person may try to blameshift their lack of desire on you. 

This is called reverse engineering an internal feeling. I lack desire, therefore lack desire for you - and instead of owning my own stuff - I search for imperfections in you and in our environment.

This leads to me complaining about things that are real, but not connected to the actual lack of desire. 

Some folk have a solid internal compass, for navigating thru these type situations. Others get gaslit for long long periods of time.







In Absentia said:


> Men pestering and showing immaturity are a massive turn off. Your wife won't have sex with you. You need to show patience and understanding, you need to be caring and loving, but also a real man for dealing with issues in a grown-up way. No sulking, and she will have sex with you. This is what my wife told me... I didn't do any of those... :laugh:


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

MEM2020 said:


> My view of this stuff is a little simplistic.
> 
> 1. Most folks getting rejected a lot become anxious and inward facing. When the exact opposite is what’s needed.
> 2. As an example, when they talk, they talk about the wrong thing - which is what THEY WANT. They do this instead of trying to understand why the other person AVOIDS sex with them.
> ...


Crap. Why do you convey and idea so easily? Can I have that skill?


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

MEM2020 said:


> IA,
> That’s all true. It is ALSO true that sex lies at the intersection of mechanics and emotions. So if your partner is not life styling properly - that often creates internal obstacles for sex. If you are dealing with someone who isn’t exercising because they are depressed. Or who is depressed because they aren’t exercising and being productive, that person may try to blameshift their lack of desire on you.
> 
> This is called reverse engineering an internal feeling. I lack desire, therefore lack desire for you - and instead of owning my own stuff - I search for imperfections in you and in our environment.
> ...



well put... still, incredibly frustrating when you can't fix things...


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

In Absentia said:


> Men pestering and showing immaturity are a massive turn off. Your wife won't have sex with you. You need to show patience and understanding, you need to be caring and loving, but also a real man for dealing with issues in a grown-up way. No sulking, and she will have sex with you. This is what my wife told me... I didn't do any of those... :laugh:


The fact that you actually wrote this shows everyone why you are not getting laid either. This is horse crap, and again, the fact that you guys think that these thoughts have any validity show that you have no clue. 

Your wives don't have sex with you because they do not love you as anything but roommates.

Now the thought of pestering/begging for sex is so repulsive that it make me want to puke. 

When the sex slowed, you guys should have had a talk and if it did not change you should have filed for divorce...


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

BluesPower said:


> The fact that you actually wrote this shows everyone why you are not getting laid either. This is horse crap, and again, the fact that you guys think that these thoughts have any validity show that you have no clue.
> 
> Your wives don't have sex with you because they do not love you as anything but roommates.
> 
> ...



I agree with you... you missed one bit of my post... _I didn't do any of those_ :laugh:


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

BluesPower said:


> When the sex slowed, you guys should have had a talk and if it did not change you should have filed for divorce...


We did have a talk, i said I would leave, she gave me enough sex to keep me there. That sex then disappeared, we are going separate way. I'm not staying in a sexless marriage at 55...


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

In Absentia said:


> BluesPower said:
> 
> 
> > When the sex slowed, you guys should have had a talk and if it did not change you should have filed for divorce...
> ...


 I know this cycle very will. It's painful and frustrating. I'm sorry that you have had to go through this. I have to say that it annoys me to no end that people assume those of us who are not getting sex have never talked about it. I mean we aren't stupid. The 1st and 2nd and 3rd and 10th thing we do is usually talk to our spouse about it. So I don't understand why people assume we haven't talked to our withholding spouses ad nauseum.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

personofinterest said:


> I know this cycle very will. It's painful and frustrating. I'm sorry that you have had to go through this. I have to say that it annoys me to no end that people assume those of us who are not getting sex have never talked about it. I mean we aren't stupid. The 1st and 2nd and 3rd and 10th thing we do is usually talk to our spouse about it. So I don't understand why people assume we haven't talked to our withholding spouses ad nauseum.


yes, we had several conversations... all with the promise to improve. And the frequency improved. But then started slowing down again. Cue next talk... and the cycle continues. My wife was very good at promising things an sticking to it for a while, only to fail again. You just put up with it because you have the kids and you do love your wife... but the cycle has to be broken at some point, for your mental sanity...


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Hold's Third Rule for Sexual Mismatch:
3. Never have the "our sex life stinks" talk more than twice. Three strikes and the person needs to be out of your life.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

personofinterest said:


> I know this cycle very will. It's painful and frustrating. I'm sorry that you have had to go through this. I have to say that it annoys me to no end that people assume those of us who are not getting sex have never talked about it. I mean we aren't stupid. The 1st and 2nd and 3rd and 10th thing we do is usually talk to our spouse about it. So I don't understand why people assume we haven't talked to our withholding spouses ad nauseum.


No it is not assumed, but here is the deal. 

But before I spell out my opinion, let me qualify, it. I understand that there are a TON of men and women that don't really understand what good mutually satisfying sex is actually about. I do understand that, I not completely stupid. 

However, IA SETTLED for Twice a month!!! OMG, TWICE A MONTH. Who though that was a good idea. 

If my Ex W had suggested twice a month, my next questions would have been, "So when will you be moving out of the house?" 

Now on to the point, I don't expect everyone to have a high a sex drive as me, because from what I read I guess I am abnormal. 

But I also, know that men and woman settle for less frequency and less passion than I believe they should. So that "Talk" I am talking about is much more direct and cut and dry than a lot of people here seem to think is required. 

But people who settle for twice or once a month, how much passion could be in that? Why would anyone think that is ok. 

If I am in a relationship, whatever woman I am with better bring as much to the table as I do or it is not going to work. If a woman does not love you, she almost certainly will not desire you, although that is not always the case, as many women enjoyed having sex with me but I know they did not love me. But in a marriage, that is usually the case. 

Let me give an example, my GF was married a couple of times, has three kids, and NEVER had steady good sex that entire time. 

So when we got together, all she could talk about is how great the sex was, and in reality it really was and is, but she just never knew what it could be like. Now part of the greatness is that we are so in love, like I have never known. So that makes it so much more intense. 

At first I started to think that she just wanted to be with me because the sex was good, I am a sensitive guy BTW. But shortly after that feeling I started to understand that she and our relationship was the complete package. 

But the point is to this story, or the question, is Why settle for substandard sex from someone that is supposed to love you???


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

MEM2020 said:


> My view of this stuff is a little simplistic.
> 
> 1. Most folks getting rejected a lot become anxious and inward facing. When the exact opposite is what’s needed.
> 2. As an example, when they talk, they talk about the wrong thing - which is what THEY WANT. They do this instead of trying to understand why the other person AVOIDS sex with them.
> ...


Brilliant! That is the exact thought process going through my mind 15 yrs ago when we went through our worst patch.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

BluesPower said:


> But the point is to this story, or the question, is Why settle for substandard sex from someone that is supposed to love you???


Good question... in my case, it happened half way through our marriage. I think she just stopped being in love with me, you know what I mean... :smile2: So I tried to turn it around for another few years and I failed. After nearly 20 years, with incredibly good sex at the beginning, you still foolishly believe you can change your partner. Of course I was wrong, but I still loved my wife and didn't want to leave the children. So, I compromised heavily. In hindsight, I shouldn't have.

So, in a few words, she didn't love me anymore, but we both hanged in there, I guess for the kids and because we did get on and liked each other.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

In Absentia said:


> yes, we had several conversations... all with the promise to improve. And the frequency improved. But then started slowing down again. Cue next talk... and the cycle continues. My wife was very good at promising things an sticking to it for a while, only to fail again. You just put up with it because you have the kids and you do love your wife... but the cycle has to be broken at some point, for your mental sanity...


You know, if my husband NEEDED me to provide ... I don't know... enthusiastic rice and beans regularly, I would WANT to. I would. But I don't like rice and beans. No one gives a rat's behind about the absence of regular rice and beans, and he can eat it whenever he wants without me. Not so sex. It SUCKS, but i can see how delivering on this promise on a forever basis would be damned hard to do if she does not want it too. What I DON'T get is not getting individual counseling to see if there was anything to I could do to engender genuine enthusiasm on my part. At least that is what I would do.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> You know, if my husband NEEDED me to provide ... I don't know... enthusiastic rice and beans regularly, I would WANT to. I would. But I don't like rice and beans. No one gives a rat's behind about the absence of regular rice and beans, and he can eat it whenever he wants without me. Not so sex. It SUCKS, but i can see how delivering on this promise on a forever basis would be damned hard to do if she does not want it too. What I DON'T get is not getting individual counseling to see if there was anything to I could do to engender genuine enthusiasm on my part. At least that is what I would do.


Exactly. Rather than doing so, she is digging her heels in.

This is telling.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> What I DON'T get is not getting individual counseling to see if there was anything to I could do to engender genuine enthusiasm on my part. At least that is what I would do.


One of the bone of contention... my wife suffers from OCD (recurrent catastrophic thoughts, she says), so she takes ADs... she's been taking the same type for the last few years. She has zero libido because of the ADs. After another talk, she promised me she would seek counselling for the OCD so she could come off the ADs and we could have our old good sex life back... but she never did. She back-tracked, saying it doesn't work. She didn't even try...


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

farsidejunky said:


> Exactly. Rather than doing so, she is digging her heels in.
> 
> This is telling.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


What is less obvious to me than it is to others on this board is WHAT it is telling. Is it telling I don't really love you except to do enough to maybe keep you around? I don't like sex, and we are incompatible? Or I am operating from a position of fear and confusion and don't know what to do? Or something else entirely. Based on her words, I am guessing the second. But her words are the thing that says that, not extrapolation to women... as is oft the desire of people on SIM.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> What is less obvious to me than it is to others on this board is WHAT it is telling. Is it telling I don't really love you except to do enough to maybe keep you around? I don't like sex, and we are incompatible? Or I am operating from a position of fear and confusion and don't know what to do? Or something else entirely. Based on her words, I am guessing the second. But her words are the thing that says that, not extrapolation to women... as is oft the desire of people on SIM.


She isn't saying.

That is why boundary enforcement is so crucial here. 

"We can either be discussing how to mutually restore our marriage, or how to end it. For the former to happen, your effort is required. For the latter, your effort is optional. How you choose determines my direction."

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

In Absentia said:


> One of the bone of contention... my wife suffers from OCD (recurrent catastrophic thoughts, she says), so she takes ADs... she's been taking the same type for the last few years. She has zero libido because of the ADs. After another talk, she promised me she would seek counselling for the OCD so she could come off the ADs and we could have our old good sex life back... but she never did. She back-tracked, saying it doesn't work. She didn't even try...


Let me preface this by saying I KNOW medications have different effects on different people. I already know this.

However, I have been on various forms of ADs for many years, the latest version for 9 years, and it is "known" to have a significant affect on libido.

I still desire sex every day. Every. Day. Now either I am some sort of freaky supersexwoman who would be having it ten times a day unmedicated....

Or this whole AD thing has become the new go-to for "why I don't want sex" that people are afraid to argue with "because science."


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

I been on ADs most my adult life. While I think about sex less, I certainly enjoy it just the same. I was on Paxil for awhile which was the devils drug, couldn't orgasm to save my life...


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

I have been on ADs. On many of them, I can't maintain an erection and have tremendous difficulty reaching orgasm. I still had plenty of desire for sex. I simply could not perform. Luckily my wife and I weren't having sex during most of these periods, so the only person frustrated with my inability to "perform" was me. I could easily see how someone who suffered from these kinds of side effects would have a reduced interest in partner sex.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Don't people just straight talk to each other? If I don't want to have sex, we talk. I've got reasons and make them known to my partner. Same with him. It seems faster and easier to just say what's on your mind.


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## BarbedFenceRider (Mar 30, 2018)

I guess if it were me, I'd leave the sex word out of the discussion. I would be under the premise that the woman didn't desire me anymore. And that I had a temperature check that proved it to me. She may have a different gauge she is using, but that is neither here or there. It's how I feel the relationship is progressing. 

A stupid head doctor can berate me all she wants on that I "don't need sex" to be married. But in theory, I don't need to be married to have sex...And if a peck on the forehead, and a couple of back pats constitute "love and affection" from the woman, then I have my answer. I need to be with a partner that desires me the way I feel good. Not her.

Essentially, one can word salad this to death but the underlying fact remains the same. I myself are unhappy, and not desired. And I need to change my environment and situation that makes me better. If it isn't with that particular woman, then the fates have chosen. If she feels otherwise and takes drastic steps to improve my feelings and ego, then all the better.

But the bottom line is that if one continues to be stuck in the mud, than expect to stay muddy....I myself, need to rise above it and make something that I can enjoy in this life. Too little time here to waste on regret and resentment.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Somebody,
You recently posted something really smart about the difference between sex and intimacy. And for days that comment has been ricocheting round off the insides a my thick skull. So here goes as an add on to that comment.

I gradually made a bunch of poor lifestyle choices resulting in my T levels dropping. As a result most of the natural edge I have personality wise - disappeared. On top of that M2 had some medical stuff. 

Result was her passion for me - greatly diminished. Her engagement level during sex was still high - which ensured that the mechanics of sex remained really good for me. But it was an increasingly one sided experience. This situation lasted for 3-5 years. 

At rock bottom - she wasn’t reaching the rapture but maybe one in three times. Rock bottom probably lasted a year. 

During that whole time I firmly stayed on message: Thank you for not pretending with me and being so committed to me/us.

And umm she stayed firmly on message as well: Are you angry we can’t have PIV anymore? Do you want to find a PIV-buddy.

To which I replied: No and NO!!!

Now that I’m giving her more edge and some of her health issues are resolved - the passion has increase a lot. 





NobodySpecial said:


> You know, if my husband NEEDED me to provide ... I don't know... enthusiastic rice and beans regularly, I would WANT to. I would. But I don't like rice and beans. No one gives a rat's behind about the absence of regular rice and beans, and he can eat it whenever he wants without me. Not so sex. It SUCKS, but i can see how delivering on this promise on a forever basis would be damned hard to do if she does not want it too. What I DON'T get is not getting individual counseling to see if there was anything to I could do to engender genuine enthusiasm on my part. At least that is what I would do.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

happiness27 said:


> This is just making no sense to me. Why isn't the question being asked of the wife in this situation: Why don't you want to have sex with him? - and that answer spoken out in the open between you and your wife? Has that question been asked and answered?
> 
> I mean, that's at the heart of the matter isn't it?


I'm still trying to talk above the din of speculation and just ask a question straight out - the ONLY question that needs to be answered: to the wife: "Why don't you want to have sex with him?" 

And asked in your presence with your wife turning to you and answering you directly. 

How can you solve any of this without asking and getting an answer to this question?


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

MEM2020 said:


> Somebody,
> You recently posted something really smart about the difference between sex and intimacy. And for days that comment has been ricocheting round off the insides a my thick skull. So here goes as an add on to that comment.
> 
> I gradually made a bunch of poor lifestyle choices resulting in my T levels dropping. As a result most of the natural edge I have personality wise - disappeared. On top of that M2 had some medical stuff.
> ...


This is real life marriage between two people who hung in there with each other and work their way through a very rough, long patch and coming out the other side together. It's VERY hard to do but it's heartening to hear stories from committed couples who didn't give up on each other and both were committed to making it work.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

It’s important to provide some more context for that rough period. 

1. There was a large reservoir of good will when that transpired - built up over a long 20+ years during which the physical part was very intensely awesome.
2. Non sexual touch was always a separate thing for us - so the NST remained high when the sex life was difficult.
3. There was no pretending or lying or gas lighting. Now and then she would think of old times and request a bit more edge. Not just in bed - everywhere. 




happiness27 said:


> This is real life marriage between two people who hung in there with each other and work their way through a very rough, long patch and coming out the other side together. It's VERY hard to do but it's heartening to hear stories from committed couples who didn't give up on each other and both were committed to making it work.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

personofinterest said:


> Let me preface this by saying I KNOW medications have different effects on different people. I already know this.
> 
> However, I have been on various forms of ADs for many years, the latest version for 9 years, and it is "known" to have a significant affect on libido.
> 
> ...


I have been on them too. Yes, libido a little decreased, but still a lot of desire to f*** my attractive wife... :smile2:

When we had sex, she enjoyed and had no problem reaching the big O. I remember her not getting off maybe 3/4 times in 30 years... so, it's a psychological thing. But she is/was not prepared to fix it. Not a lot I can do there.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

happiness27 said:


> And asked in your presence with your wife turning to you and answering you directly.


Many of us have asked the question, but our wives have refused to answer directly.

Which is, of course, its own kind of answer.



> How can you solve any of this without asking and getting an answer to this question?


The only way the person who is unhappy can resolve the problem if their partner refuses to answer the question is to leave.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

H27,
That’s exactly right. 

Turns out - a lot of factors have to be aligned in order for the plaintiff to successfully extract this info from the defendant. 

Below you framed a perfectly open ended question. Sometimes the other person needs more than that.

The alternative question is: 

Why have you lost your passion for me? And not just your passion/lust, but your desire to please me?







happiness27 said:


> I'm still trying to talk above the din of speculation and just ask a question straight out - the ONLY question that needs to be answered: to the wife: "Why don't you want to have sex with him?"
> 
> And asked in your presence with your wife turning to you and answering you directly.
> 
> How can you solve any of this without asking and getting an answer to this question?


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

happiness27 said:


> I'm still trying to talk above the din of speculation and just ask a question straight out - the ONLY question that needs to be answered: to the wife: "Why don't you want to have sex with him?"
> 
> And asked in your presence with your wife turning to you and answering you directly.
> 
> How can you solve any of this without asking and getting an answer to this question?



Because most of the answers are BS. Either the woman doesn't know, or she just wants it to go away so she manufactures things like "help around the house," "talk to me more," "be romantic."

I was TIIIRRRRED last night. We did make love, but as soon as we did, I went to sleep. I was looking forward to 8 interrupted hours. It's been a long week.

At 3:00 am I was nudged awake. The ensuing session lasted an hour.  Am I tired today? Dang yes. But because I DO LIKE and DESIRE sex, I enjoyed it. We do what we enjoy even when we are tired, even when there are dishes in the sink, even if the towels need to be folded.

Asking directly usually leads to some unspecific moving goalpost to "earn" sex or an "I don't know."

And I think the majority of the time it just doesn't MATTER to the wife, and so it shouldn't matter to the husband either (in her mind).


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## brooklynAnn (Jun 29, 2015)

MEM2020 said:


> H27,
> That’s exactly right.
> 
> Turns out - a lot of factors have to be aligned in order for the plaintiff to successfully extract this info from the defendant.
> ...


This is what my husband ask me if we are not having any intimacies going on. Not "why you don't want sex" but rather, "Don't you desire me, feel passion/lust for me, don't you want me?".

And my answer is of course I want you, desire you, feel passion for you. 

Then, why? My excuse is normally period, headache, not feeling well. But that happens every few months when for some reason our cycle wanes. Then, we start making effort again and we are on an up cycle. 

We try to get on it so we don't go more than two weeks without. But we make an effort to be aware of when we are drifting apart sexually. It's important to him and therefore to me.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Holding,

While I agree with your post - and perhaps I will create a new thread on this. The goal is to map into a spectrum. This is a case where qualitative terms are better than numbers on a scale. 

From highest to lowest, this scale maps the contexts that catalyze a sexual reaction:
1. On sight - desire
2. In presence (without contact) - desire
3. In presence with contact - desire
4. In bed/sexual context with foreplay - desire
5. In bed/sexual context with foreplay - sufficient desire to suppress disgust
6. In bed/sexual context with foreplay - insufficient desire to suppress disgust - this is sexual aversion 

Full confession - biology is like a religion to me. Disgust is an evolutionary protection against pathogen exposure. 

Sex happens when our (reproductive/other) desire overpowers / suppresses disgust. 

This is why pacing is every bit as important as technique. And in fact, if you did a frame by frame analysis of me connecting with M2 you would see me in a ‘pathogen transfer LITE’ mode until she gets turned on. And after that happens she is pulling me into a high pathogen transfer mode. 

In reality - what that means is simple: She NEVER feels disgusted - sorry for using such harsh terminology. 

The thing is - the conversation folk shy away from is simply this: Why was he/she so determined to avoid sex, that they were willing to kill the marriage over it? 

The reason folks divorce over sex is that the person feeling disgust, would rather be alone than - well - disgusted. 




Holdingontoit said:


> Many of us have asked the question, but our wives have refused to answer directly.
> 
> Which is, of course, its own kind of answer.
> 
> ...


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

personofinterest said:


> Because most of the answers are BS. Either the woman doesn't know, or she just wants it to go away so she manufactures things like "help around the house," "talk to me more," "be romantic."
> 
> I was TIIIRRRRED last night. We did make love, but as soon as we did, I went to sleep. I was looking forward to 8 interrupted hours. It's been a long week.
> 
> ...


This is how it is actually supposed to be. My GF does this all the time, and yeah, I am tired, but she is off all summer as a teacher. 

I have never said no, and those sessions usually last a WHILE. Why do I do it, because I love, ok and I love sex with her, but I am here to meet her need, whenever she needs it. 

I do it because I love her, and want every part of our relationship to be great, especially sex...


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

MEM2020 said:


> Holding,
> 
> While I agree with your post - and perhaps I will create a new thread on this. The goal is to map into a spectrum. This is a case where qualitative terms are better than numbers on a scale.
> 
> ...


This is spot on and also answers the question Why won't she just answer me directly? Well a) She probably does not frame it in her mind this way and b) She knows it would wreck the man she purports to love.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> This is spot on and also answers the question Why won't she just answer me directly? Well a) She probably does not frame it in her mind this way and b) She knows it would wreck the man she purports to love.


Wrecking him may be the single best thing she could do for both of them. 

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

farsidejunky said:


> Wrecking him may be the single best thing she could do for both of them.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


I wonder how many people on the sexless side has tried that. Honey, I think you are selfish btch and frigid shrew. Hmmm.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> I wonder how many people on the sexless side has tried that. Honey, I think you are selfish btch and frigid shrew. Hmmm.


It certainly would bypass the other, needy steps to arrive at that point, wouldn't it...I mean, I did the same dance for nearly two years...had I just looked at her and said, "It doesn't matter that you say you find me attractive when your actions say otherwise, so your wants are no longer my problem" it might have saved me a bunch of heartache. 

Of course, just like most here, I had to evolve to that point rather than just teleport to it...

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

farsidejunky said:


> It certainly would bypass the other, needy steps to arrive at that point, wouldn't it...I mean, I did the same dance for nearly two years...had I just looked at her and said, "It doesn't matter that you say you find me attractive when your actions say otherwise, so your wants are no longer my problem" it might have saved me a bunch of heartache.
> 
> Of course, just like most here, I had to evolve to that point rather than just teleport to it...
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


I would be a zillion dollars that she is baffled by your attitude as you are by hers. I would bet that in your heart you don't think you just married a heartless, selfish jerk. These issues are just not that simple. (Which sums up the majority of my posts on this entire board.)


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Brooklyn,

That phrase you used - it’s important to him therefore it’s important to me.....

That mindset may produce more marital magic.... than any other. 

M2 and I routinely say that to each other and demonstrate it in our actions. It is undoubtedly one of the sincerest ways to say: I love you.

For a humorous example we recently tried stand up paddle boarding. I wasn’t that good at it, M2 was and loved it. She said, you aren’t going to make me do this alone are you? I just laughed and said, no way. 

And that is sort of the point. Who cares why your partner loves something - if they do - be supportive whatever that means. 




brooklynAnn said:


> [/COLOR]
> 
> This is what my husband ask me if we are not having any intimacies going on. Not "why you don't want sex" but rather, "Don't you desire me, feel passion/lust for me, don't you want me?".
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Somebody,

I agree with that. Which is why it’s often better to say what you know is true - and see what happens. 

If it was me - I’d say: At some point in the past you felt desire when you saw me, or spent one on one time with me. That’s clearly no longer true. The question isn’t whether you feel spontaneous desire, you don’t and that is likely unchangeable. 

The question is - do you even have responsive desire for me? If you want, we can try and figure that out. Or not. I honestly don’t want you to do anything you don’t want to do. Just as I know you don’t expect me to be celibate.

But in a responsive desire mode - you HAVE to let the responder set the pace on pathogen transfer. Full stop. 

This is actually fairly simple. If you want to lead, it is fine to be physically dominant - just don’t transfer liquids until your partner is already fired up. 





NobodySpecial said:


> This is spot on and also answers the question Why won't she just answer me directly? Well a) She probably does not frame it in her mind this way and b) She knows it would wreck the man she purports to love.


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## Tasorundo (Apr 1, 2012)

Hope your meeting went well today, even as doubtful as most of us are for it.

I don't contribute much to your thread, but I am curious in following it. I think I hope you can find an answer so I can get a clue to the similar issues in my marriage.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Tasorundo said:


> Hope your meeting went well today, even as doubtful as most of us are for it.
> 
> I don't contribute much to your thread, but I am curious in following it. I think I hope you can find an answer so I can get a clue to the similar issues in my marriage.


If you are having similar problems then the reasons are the same. 

Just read through the thread. I only know of a handful of cases like this one where the love and sex ever came back. 

He has already been given the reasons, he just does not want to believe them...


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## Tasorundo (Apr 1, 2012)

I know Blues, I have been here for years. I know the situation I am in and while it is different, it has lots of similarities.

It would be nice to see one turn out well for a change, and I hope for the best in all things.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Holdingontoit said:


> Many of us have asked the question, but our wives have refused to answer directly.
> 
> Which is, of course, its own kind of answer.
> 
> ...


There's therapy - where two people teachable people who are committed to each other learn to communicate.

If either or both people aren't committed to the relationship, the relationship isn't viable anyway.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

There’s nothing necessarily difficult about these situations. 

They seem sort of obvious to me. It’s virtualized sexual slavery - with the desired partner holding the whip hand. 

It’s chronic emotional violence. Which takes a brutal physical toll over time - by chronically stressing the rejected partner.

And not only is it legal, it needs to remain so as the refused party is not physically captive. 




happiness27 said:


> There's therapy - where two people teachable people who are committed to each other learn to communicate.
> 
> If either or both people aren't committed to the relationship, the relationship isn't viable anyway.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Therapy is based on the premise that good communication = good outcome

But when one party seriously regrets marrying the other, or has an actual sexual aversion - MC isn’t that helpful.





happiness27 said:


> There's therapy - where two people teachable people who are committed to each other learn to communicate.
> 
> If either or both people aren't committed to the relationship, the relationship isn't viable anyway.


----------



## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

MEM2020 said:


> Therapy is based on the premise that good communication = good outcome
> 
> But when one party seriously regrets marrying the other, or has an actual sexual aversion - MC isn’t that helpful.


Except that MC helps two people communicate what the root of the problem is and whether or not two people want to commit to fix it or agree to part. One would have to believe that the only reason for marriage counseling is to force two people to stay together. That's not the case. What it really does is clarify the issues for each person individually, then as a couple. What they decide to do with that clarification is up to the couple.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I really don’t believe I’m being cynical when I say that many people are parasitic spouses. They are fully aware of that and have zero interest in having a therapist ‘out them’. 





happiness27 said:


> Except that MC helps two people communicate what the root of the problem is and whether or not two people want to commit to fix it or agree to part. One would have to believe that the only reason for marriage counseling is to force two people to stay together. That's not the case. What it really does is clarify the issues for each person individually, then as a couple. What they decide to do with that clarification is up to the couple.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

MEM2020 said:


> I really don’t believe I’m being cynical when I say that many people are parasitic spouses. They are fully aware of that and have zero interest in having a therapist ‘out them’.


Gosh - "many" ?


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

happiness27 said:


> Gosh - "many" ?


Yes, many. 

I love the things that you write, but you always seem to take up for the female spouses that it is obvious have been doing nothing but sponge off of the husband. 

Some of these women may have really physical issues of some kind, but this one really does not. 

The only thing that we can conclude is that she just does not really love her husband, but because he has not divorced her, she is happy to continue sponging off of a man that she finds repugnant. 

I believe that there are MANY women that do this and many men that are weak doormats that are afraid to divorce these women.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

BluesPower said:


> Yes, many.
> 
> I love the things that you write, but you always seem to take up for the female spouses that it is obvious have been doing nothing but sponge off of the husband.
> 
> ...


A woman who takes care of a household and is the primary caretaker of his child is *sponging* off of him because they are having marital sexual issues?

I think the OP is in a marriage situation that is experiencing difficulties that he and his wife are in MC to resolve.

FWIW, I have been in a marriage in the past (9 years) with a man who rarely wanted to have sex - and I was in my 20s, not an ugly woman at all, trim and fit and dearly loved sex. Nobody was sponging off anybody as far as I was concerned. I worked my A off on that marriage, physically keeping up a house, cooking phenomenal meals, making my children's clothing to save money, managing our personal finances and family plans, including moves and vacations. 

The suggestion of misogynistic ideology regarding a woman's efforts inside of the family structure is deeply offensive. 

PEOPLE ARE PEOPLE - regardless of gender. Either gender equally is capable of being communicative or not communicative, of enjoying sex or having a higher or lower sex drive, having hangups or maturity in any number of areas. 

Calling a man a *doormat* is apparently some derogatory term aimed at the non-domineering male who isn't afraid of stepping into the kitchen or so-called traditional female role once in awhile - which I put to you is not a demeaning task NOR is it a task to be loudly applauded. Any task of any nature that a man or a woman wants to tackle and is capable of tackling is a contribution to the family unit. As such, it should be done with humility, not for the purpose of gaining something from others. 

As far as "conclusions" about the wife of the OP: we know far too little about her to draw any conclusions, least of all a conclusion that she does not love her husband. 

The simplest and most important question hasn't been answered: "Why don't you want to have sex with your husband?" Until she answers that question with "I don't love him" - then your conclusion is premature.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

happiness27 said:


> PEOPLE ARE PEOPLE - regardless of gender. Either gender equally is capable of being communicative or not communicative, of enjoying sex or having a higher or lower sex drive, having hangups or maturity in any number of areas.
> 
> Calling a man a *doormat* is apparently some derogatory term aimed at the non-domineering male who isn't afraid of stepping into the kitchen or so-called traditional female role once in awhile - which I put to you is not a demeaning task NOR is it a task to be loudly applauded. Any task of any nature that a man or a woman wants to tackle and is capable of tackling is a contribution to the family unit. As such, it should be done with humility, not for the purpose of gaining something from others.


If you want to ignore gender then you would miss the obvious incongruity of men complaining of sexless marriages ad nauseam on this site (compared to women). The why's they are looking for are what many of us have found from experience of our own shattered marriages.

There is no greater way to turn off your wife's attraction towards you by being a doormat. It is a derogatory term but not because they do the dishes or laundry but because they let their wife run roughshod over them. Instead of standing their ground, being resolute and firm...they surrender, they comply, they become the sub in the relationship. 

Guess what happens, they end up on this forum or another with the ILYBINILWY speech or strong suspicion of his wife riding her coworker like a mechanical bull. If she has simply lost her desire without any life changing medical issues and at one point their sex life was healthy, then no amount of MC is going to do squat. You can't negotiate your wife's desire by arguing daily about your sexless marriage. But you can do things to spark her interest in you again and if that doesn't work at least you are ready once you drop the dead weight.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> This is spot on and also answers the question Why won't she just answer me directly? Well a) She probably does not frame it in her mind this way and b) She knows it would wreck the man she purports to love.


Correct, but there is a 3rd alternative: (c) she knows it will wreck the marriage she wants to continue.

And (b) is really a misdirection. She is already wrecking him by rejecting him. She just doesn't want him to realize what is happening. See, the "lie to self" that a well-meaning woman is committing when she rejects him but won't admit that out loud is: I am reducing his pain by lying. I am propping up his self esteem. No, you are just bleeding it more slowly. You aren't reducing his pain or changing where his self-esteem is going to end up. You are just trying to do it slowly enough that he stays with you longer. 

Choice (b) is equivalent to slowly turning up the heat so the frog doesn't jump out of the pot. That is still boiling the frog alive. Is it more "humane" that throwing the frog into a pot of boiling water and slamming down the lid? I don't think so. The frog ends up just as dead either way. All you are doing in choice (b) is minimizing the chance that the frog will jump out of the pot. That isn't being kind to the frog.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> If you want to ignore gender then you would miss the obvious incongruity of men complaining of sexless marriages ad nauseam on this site (compared to women). The why's they are looking for are what many of us have found from experience of our own shattered marriages.
> 
> *A person speaking from their own personal experience is a person speaking from personal bias, not from measured facts NOR from individual facts as they apply to someone ELSE'S situation.*
> 
> ...


Relationship compatibilities are far more complex than the macho man/submissive woman scenario getting painted here. One thing I will say is that the social pressures that men put on each other to "be a MAN" is harmful to men who don't hold that set of personality traits. Part of the harm that men face is the pressure from the outside world that they must be authentic, as long as that authenticity includes strutting around like a freaking rooster in charge of the barnyard.

Again, people are people. Some people are gentle and some are aggressive. Some of these are male and some are female. If we depended on some perfect match up of dominant men to submissive women, there's a whole lotta couples out there who are being made to feel like freaks because they don't match the *standard*.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Holdingontoit said:


> Correct, but there is a 3rd alternative: (c) she knows it will wreck the marriage she wants to continue.
> 
> And (b) is really a misdirection. She is already wrecking him by rejecting him. She just doesn't want him to realize what is happening. See, the "lie to self" that a well-meaning woman is committing when she rejects him but won't admit that out loud is: I am reducing his pain by lying. I am propping up his self esteem. No, you are just bleeding it more slowly. You aren't reducing his pain or changing where his self-esteem is going to end up. You are just trying to do it slowly enough that he stays with you longer.
> 
> Choice (b) is equivalent to slowly turning up the heat so the frog doesn't jump out of the pot. That is still boiling the frog alive. Is it more "humane" that throwing the frog into a pot of boiling water and slamming down the lid? I don't think so. The frog ends up just as dead either way. All you are doing in choice (b) is minimizing the chance that the frog will jump out of the pot. That isn't being kind to the frog.


Which is all speculation - gossip, if you will. Until this particular woman answers the question, it's at the very least unhelpful and likely harmful (planting wild ideas in the OPs head) to venture into gossipy speculation about why this couple is having difficulties.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

happiness27 said:


> Relationship compatibilities are far more complex than the macho man/submissive woman scenario getting painted here. One thing I will say is that the social pressures that men put on each other to "be a MAN" is harmful to men who don't hold that set of personality traits. Part of the harm that men face is the pressure from the outside world that they must be authentic, as long as that authenticity includes strutting around like a freaking rooster in charge of the barnyard.
> 
> Again, people are people. Some people are gentle and some are aggressive. Some of these are male and some are female. If we depended on some perfect match up of dominant men to submissive women, there's a whole lotta couples out there who are being made to feel like freaks because they don't match the *standard*.


I have been trying to find a way to respond to your last response to me and to this one. 

As far at this one goes. You misunderstand the concept of Alpha and Beta in males, like most feminists do and a huge portion of the population. 

Yes there are men that are more Alpha, they are usually easy to recognize and frankly way more attractive to MOST women, sorry but that is the case. It just is, you can say that you are not attracted to that and I will believe you, but most women are. 

But what Alpha means, is confidence, self assuredness, inner strength, and the unwillingness to take very much crap off of anyone, and that includes women. 

Men can be alpha in many ways, and in many areas of their life. But they also can be a combination, of things. 

For me, I am considered alpha by most, not really sure why. But with women I have been very successful for whatever that means, and in general I posses great inner strength. But I am also an alpha musician, which does not mean cocky, it means self assured and often in a quiet way. I am, in most musical situations, the best player in the room, everyone knows it, and I don't go on about it. But the fact remains that I am the best most of the time. 

Men like this, generally don't put up with sexless marriages, if one woman is not into them, many others are, and we are not afraid to leave and find a new one. 

But it really has nothing to do with being cocky, or arrogant, it has to do with confidence and understanding self worth. 

However, I am also an excellent father, and I am wonderful with babies. All babies love me, I don't know why, but I can quiet any baby that I have ever tried to. People call me the "Baby Whisperer", which is silly because I don't whisper to them, I just hold them and comfort them until they stop crying. 

I bet, by the why that you write and think that you are an alpha female, but I have no way to be sure. And, I think you would hate that designation anyway...


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

BluesPower said:


> I have been trying to find a way to respond to your last response to me and to this one.
> 
> As far at this one goes. You misunderstand the concept of Alpha and Beta in males, like most feminists do and a huge portion of the population.
> 
> ...


I write about and photograph musicians for a living. By somewhat coincidence, there happens to be an upsurge in my town of women bassists leading bands. I don't really care about that aspect of their stories, although I see that some publications like to go for that angle. It's irrelevant to me - I see them as successful musicians. So, I understand the difference between being cocky and being a person who - well, let's call them *leaders.*

I really hate labels. I don't call myself anything. If I want to do something, I go after it and get it done. I'm not on this earth to step on other people to get ahead and I'm not one to let an obstacle stop me from accomplishing something if I can find another route. 

My background hasn't always been entertainment - I've been around all types of stories about all types of people. People are amazing...from the smallest town story to the uber famous, they are people when it comes down to it. They are just spiced differently. Everyone has a purpose. 

I think this, more than anything has colored my attitude towards the value of human life and steered me away from make generalizations about how people will predictably behave. 

I see social mores as lending a pressure onto people of both genders. I didn't know much about little boys until my daughter had three sons. I found them to be quite neutral growing up - not the macho stuff I thought boys possessed early on. Boys are quite lovely and sweet and gentle. The injection of macho values - I can't imagine how shattering this much be for some of them. The sheer pressure of being dominant, decisive, bold and leading...when, in fact, men come in a wide variety of personalities. God help the guys who were gentle and teased for being gay - whether they were gay or not...as if gay was the most horrible of outcomes. We need all types of personalities. That's what makes our world beautiful. 

When it comes to relationships, then, we look for compatibilities and people within those relationships finding ways to boost each other forward towards evolving themselves and each other. Sometimes incompatibilities, strangely enough, help us define more what we want and don't want in our lives. I know, it's a rather obvious point - that sometimes we need to experience what we don't want in order to find what we do want. 

I do like to stay away from generalities like "women want a dominant man" - I don't think that is true as a general rule. I think people evolve in their thinking a lot of times. They may start out in relationships that feel familiar to their primary family situation but as they grow in experiences, they may decide differently. 

I've talked to and listened to so many different people and their opinions over the years - necessarily so - that's how stories get written. I find and have found that people are very different than the stereotypes we tend to look towards as *social mores* would dictate. People are quite individually mixed in their personalities - so much so that I've quit trying to predict how a person really is from an outside, distant viewpoint. Men can be quite loving and gentle and even indecisive - so can women and then, of course, the opposite. It's like, you can throw up 10,000 ingredients to a personality and let them fall and each person will be unpredictably different. So, yeah, I quit genderizing. It hurts men when they think they have to earn the favor of other men by living up to a *man's man* or a woman who isn't coy, sweet and submissive walks on to a stage and bad-asses a bass gets attention because women aren't supposed to be able to do that. From my perspective, let's all just make music and screw the critics.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

happiness27 said:


> Relationship compatibilities are far more complex than the macho man/submissive woman scenario getting painted here. One thing I will say is that the social pressures that men put on each other to "be a MAN" is harmful to men who don't hold that set of personality traits. Part of the harm that men face is the pressure from the outside world that they must be authentic, as long as that authenticity includes strutting around like a freaking rooster in charge of the barnyard.
> 
> Again, people are people. Some people are gentle and some are aggressive. Some of these are male and some are female. If we depended on some perfect match up of dominant men to submissive women, there's a whole lotta couples out there who are being made to feel like freaks because they don't match the *standard*.


Thousands of years of biology are working against your assumptions. And countless field tests. Being a beta/sub is more harmful to males than getting a little kick in the ass from other men to regain his balls. The problem is most just have to learn the hard way...usually by his wife riding the D carousal out of town...

And I'm not saying beta traits are necessarily bad, just saying you got to sprinkle some alpha in there or you will become a doormat. No one deserves that.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Thousands of years of biology are working against your assumptions. And countless field tests. Being a beta/sub is more harmful to males than getting a little kick in the ass from other men to regain his balls. The problem is most just have to learn the hard way...usually by his wife riding the D carousal out of town...
> 
> And I'm not saying beta traits are necessarily bad, just saying you got to sprinkle some alpha in there or you will become a doormat. No one deserves that.


I think we need to get rid of the descriptor "doormat" for men. It's harmful and unnecessary. Let people be who they are and evolve how they want to evolve. We need all kinds of people of all different personalities.

We are a civilized society and no longer Neanderthals.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Being a beta/sub is more harmful to males than getting a little kick in the ass from other men to regain his balls.


This reminds me of the comedian Sheng Wang's quote: 

*A friend said to me, “Hey you need to grow a pair. Grow a pair, Bro.” It’s when someone calls you weak, but they associate it with a lack of testicles. Which is weird, because testicles are the most sensitive things in the world. If you suddenly just grew a pair, you’d be a lot more vulnerable. If you want to be tough, you should lose a pair. If you want to be real tough, you should grow a vagina. Those things can take a pounding*


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

happiness27 said:


> Which is all speculation - gossip, if you will. Until this particular woman answers the question, it's at the very least unhelpful and likely harmful (planting wild ideas in the OPs head) to venture into gossipy speculation about why this couple is having difficulties.


Agreed. But there should be a time limit on how long she gets to answer. After that, silence IS an answer.

And you might not agree, but in our experience on these and other forums, it is overwhelmingly likely that if she refuses to answer it is because the true answer is (c) and she simply does not want to admit it openly. 

In any event, acting on the assumption that the answer is (c) in the face of silence is the man's best strategy. That forces the woman to either admit the truth or lose her husband. If the answer is actually (a), then she needs to put on her big girl panties and admit it. And agree to work to find the answer she doesn't have yet. She needs to make the lack of sex her problem. Otherwise, her husband is best off leaving. Sad for her but true for him.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Holdingontoit said:


> Agreed. But there should be a time limit on how long she gets to answer. After that, silence IS an answer.
> 
> And you might not agree, but in our experience on these and other forums, it is overwhelmingly likely that if she refuses to answer it is because the true answer is (c) and she simply does not want to admit it openly.
> 
> In any event, acting on the assumption that the answer is (c) in the face of silence is the man's best strategy. That forces the woman to either admit the truth or lose her husband. If the answer is actually (a), then she needs to put on her big girl panties and admit it. And agree to work to find the answer she doesn't have yet. She needs to make the lack of sex her problem. Otherwise, her husband is best off leaving. Sad for her but true for him.


 @Holdingontoit 
Your most cogent post to date.


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## Frustrated_Hubs (Jun 23, 2018)

Hi again everyone, apologies for the radio silence.

Wow, this thread has been busy while I've been offline.

This past week for me as been weird as hell and I don't know what is going on. Every night for the past week we have had sex, and not a quick get it over with either, real passionate sex the way we used to. Its all come from nowhere too, no coercion from me at all, each instance has been initiated by her.

Obviously I'm enjoying the ride at the moment but have to feel that there is more to whats going on than the _magic libido fairy_ paid us a visit. Maybe she is responding to the changes I have made to myself and in my attitude towards the relationship. Is she seeing my actions as me setting the groundwork to walk out and feels a need to react? 

I could be wrong, I mean there has still been no verbal response from her with regards to the _detaching from our codependency_ I have been implementing. No losing her sh!t over me not doing things for her like I used to. Likewise there has still been no explanation for why our sex-life has been the way it has been for so long. 

I don't know whether (or even how) to question her about her sudden change in behaviour to be honest, she seems in a happier mood in general too and don't want to dampen things between us while they are apparently good. How would I even ask her, how would that come across? Questioning why we are having regular sex after years of questioning why we aren't, its a very peculiar situation.

Plus whatever this is I want to enjoy it for whatever length of time it will run for. :grin2:

Round 3 of MC is up this Friday (we missed a week due to the "therapists" holidays) perhaps that will shed some light on it. Although if our "therapist" has her way judging by her past advise my Wife has probably given into me and submitted and was wrong to do so, or I have forced myself upon her this past week, or some other sh!t. 

As much as I don't want so see that pitiful excuse of a "therapist" again, its paid for and I'm a scrooge so we're going. I really hope that my Wife opens up about whats changed (if anything) as my mind is all over the place.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

I announce in advance that I am biased and projecting:

I think she's doing what she has to to keep you, and once she feels like you'll stay, she'll revert.


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## Frustrated_Hubs (Jun 23, 2018)

personofinterest said:


> I announce in advance that I am biased and projecting:
> 
> I think she's doing what she has to to keep you, and once she feels like you'll stay, she'll revert.


This is my concern too. I've seen the phrase 'sex-coma' used more for cases of infidelity, but I feel it could apply to us too.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

personofinterest said:


> I announce in advance that I am biased and projecting:
> 
> I think she's doing what she has to to keep you, and once she feels like you'll stay, she'll revert.


I think you are right, or she is reading his thread??? Who knows. 

But if you are right, the everyone's basic theory would be right, or would it? 

We surely are not saying that because OP actually grew a pair of ball, no matter how small, and his wife was starting to realize that he was an actual man and not a puss, and that he may be preparing to divorce her that she actually wanted to keep him by having sex...

Because that just cannot be the case, right???


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Frustrated_Hubs said:


> As much as I don't want so see that pitiful excuse of a "therapist" again, its paid for and I'm a scrooge so we're going. I really hope that my Wife opens up about whats changed (if anything) as my mind is all over the place.


Glad to hear you have been having some good sex. Here is my advice for the MC session:

Do NOT ask "why now?". That is a weak move. That is asking for affirmation. That questions assumes that her libido depends on external conditions, and it is your job to bring those conditions into being.

Just say "I really liked this week and if most weeks are like this then I would be satisfied with our sex life".

Do not say "OMG it was fabulous and I love her so much and I can't believe what a great week we had." You shouldn't be surprised by a week of good sex. That should be the norm and the expectation. And that is what you should say: "This week was good. Do that every week and we'll be fine." Which sends the message that whether you guys are "fine" as a couple is up to you, not up to her. That it is her responsibility to provide a steady supply of sex. Not your job to jump through hoops to "earn" sex. And that this week was her finally meeting the minimum requirements to keep you. Not her doing some kind of once in a lifetime unsustainable sacrifice. But her finally living up to her role as your wife.

Share your mind being "all over the place" with us, not with her. Don't act anxious and confused. Act calm and self-satisfied. Your message is simple: see, I knew you could do it if you put your mind to it.

If your wife tries to send that message that this was special and you shouldn't expect it on a regular basis, your reply should be along the lines of "if I can't expect this on a regular basis, then you can't expect me to be happy to be married to you. We have already established that you are physically and emotionally capable of doing this if you want to, so if you don't continue to do it then you obviously don't want to - which means you don't want to stay married to me. Which is OK. I'll be fine."


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

> Just say "I really liked this week and if most weeks are like this then I would be satisfied with our sex life".


THIS is perfect


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

personofinterest said:


> THIS is perfect


It would also be interesting to be able to gauge her response to that statement. Is the initial, before-she-has-the-chance-to-put-on-the-right-face, response one of contentment, gratitude, or being pleased... or is there a brief moment of being taken aback, as though there is a realization that she might be expected to do this on a regular basis for the rest of her life?

Being able to accurately read that response will go a long way in determining if she's really trying for the sake of the marriage, or just doing the minimum to keep from losing it.


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## Frustrated_Hubs (Jun 23, 2018)

Holdingontoit said:


> Glad to hear you have been having some good sex. Here is my advice for the MC session:
> 
> Do NOT ask "why now?". That is a weak move. That is asking for affirmation. That questions assumes that her libido depends on external conditions, and it is your job to bring those conditions into being.
> 
> ...


Your "Don't say" statements are pretty much the kind of rections I may have had a few short months ago, but not any more. My whole perspective over my marriage, and life in general, has shifted so much in such a short space of time since joining this site.


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## Frustrated_Hubs (Jun 23, 2018)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> It would also be interesting to be able to gauge her response to that statement. Is the initial, before-she-has-the-chance-to-put-on-the-right-face, response one of contentment, gratitude, or being pleased... or is there a brief moment of being taken aback, as though there is a realization that she might be expected to do this on a regular basis for the rest of her life?
> 
> Being able to accurately read that response will go a long way in determining if she's really trying for the sake of the marriage, or just doing the minimum to keep from losing it.


This is what I'm waiting for the most. It should be very telling either way.

I'm not saying anything before Friday though, going to ride this roller coaster till the end of the week and 'get my fill'.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

happiness27 said:


> A woman who takes care of a household and is the primary caretaker of his child is *sponging* off of him because they are having marital sexual issues?
> 
> I think the OP is in a marriage situation that is experiencing difficulties that he and his wife are in MC to resolve.
> 
> ...


Lets put it this way (removing the gender out of the equation as that seem to color your response) when a partner selfishly refuses to support what are quite reasonable needs of their spouse, needs that they very clearly stated were their responsibility as a part of the marriage contract (assuming they are in a monogamous committed marriage), they are not being a good spouse. This is assuming they are healthy and the support is realistic. It's even worse when the spouse who is not being supported makes it known that they are suffering. Whatever else they do to support them really doesn't matter. 

Sex it a vital component of marriage, raising kids, or working really hard doesn't discount that fact. Period.


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## ButtPunch (Sep 17, 2014)

Frustrated_Hubs said:


> Hi again everyone, apologies for the radio silence.
> 
> Wow, this thread has been busy while I've been offline.
> 
> ...


Don't ask her just keep doing what you are doing


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Holdingontoit said:


> Agreed. But there should be a time limit on how long she gets to answer. After that, silence IS an answer.
> 
> And you might not agree, but in our experience on these and other forums, it is overwhelmingly likely that if she refuses to answer it is because the true answer is (c) and she simply does not want to admit it openly.
> 
> In any event, acting on the assumption that the answer is (c) in the face of silence is the man's best strategy. That forces the woman to either admit the truth or lose her husband. If the answer is actually (a), then she needs to put on her big girl panties and admit it. And agree to work to find the answer she doesn't have yet. She needs to make the lack of sex her problem. Otherwise, her husband is best off leaving. Sad for her but true for him.


I would agree with you about *time* but I disagree on there being a time limit *ulimatum*. The nature of relationships is that they are fluid, evolving situations. Impatient people with self-centered expectations will likely not be happy working within relationship situations. 

The reason I think this is because relationships don't fit neatly into little boxes or categories. Black and white thinking doesn't fair well. "If I do this, then you should do that" misses the fluidity of people and, well, life.

I think I get what you are saying about "silence" - perhaps you are saying that people who are non-communicative are leaving themselves open to being misinterpreted by virtue of their silence. That certainly is the hazard of not communicating. Not communicating is so very frustrating for the other spouse. I mean, what are they supposed to fill the silence with? So, the spouse looking for answers is going to fill that gap with *guesses* that, even if they are totally wrong, the non-communicative spouse is putting their spouse in the position of making up a story that fits the spouse's narrative. "She's not having sex with me because she doesn't love me" for instance. Now, that could be totally wrong but what are you supposed to do when the withholding spouse won't speak up?

Believe me, I totally get where you are coming from. This marriage is round three for me insofar as marriages. It's utterly amazing that couples expect a relationship to just magically work out without either party or just one party working on it. 

I'm a very heavy communicator (pretty obvious). But I've evolved over the years to being a *better* communicator by working with different therapists throughout my life and by reading a lot of literature about relationships and how to effectively communicate, getting a handle on what's MY issue and what's a my spouse's issues. 

I'm extremely interested in what my spouse thinks or does. I like to know his opinion on all kinds of things and am interested in how he perceives the world, himself, his wants, needs, his self-care and what, if any role I may or may not play in his life. We are an incredibly accurate match, having experienced so many similar primary family scenarios, relationship scenarios, how we view sex, how flexible we are on some issues and to value the intense loyalty we have to each other. 

OTOH, we also have our differences - and have come to understand those differences...not always easily. It has taken YEARS to get my husband to slowly open up to me on a variety of topics - and MC really helped us define our personality types and boosted us along with new ideas on how to work together to both get what we want out of life. 

When you ultimatum a partner who is having trouble communicating, it's terrifying for them because, frankly, you have to consider the possibility that they are really, really doing the best they know how to do at any given time. Assuming that a partner has an evil intent for behaving in a certain way (silence) is a big jump in thinking that borders into the illogical. 

But, yeah, I've turned to my husband (and in therapy) and said, "Hey, start talking or I'm going to look at my options. I'm not happy with ___________ because it effects my feelings of being loved, feeling secure or my overall happiness." 

My partner was so committed (we both agreed before we decided to be a couple that would stay committed to the relationship) that even though I pushed for greater communication that made him feel scared and uncomfortable, he continued to get out of his communication comfort zone over and over. He's gotten really good at communicating now. But, again, it has been a lot of years and effort to get to this space.

You know, as I look back, when I was in my 20s and 30s, it was a heck of a lot easier to imagine myself moving on to another relationship. The pool of prospects was much larger. At some point, though, I read somewhere or a therapist suggested at some point, that, if you move on to another relationship, you just end up with another person very similar to the last relationship within a couple of years. I don't know how that happens - I guess they find you (like a heat-seeking missile). 

Another guess is probably that we all have to address our own issues by ourselves at some point. We have to know who we are as individuals first and foremost. No one other person is going to completely satisfy us so we have to take a hard look in the mirror, get comfortable with that person, learn to make our own happiness, so that we have something to offer instead of constantly looking to our partner to make us happy.

I've said this before on this forum - but I truly don't like the idea of generalizations when it comes to people and certainly not with couples. Generalization is a common fallacy of logic. 

To say that a person isn't communicating because a, b, c truly limits the actual possibilities. I think people are quite complex, with very complex experiences and history. There are tons of variables when it comes to the make up of a personality. While it may feel soothing to fit people into boxes and categories, it's a highly inaccurate way of approaching relationships.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Frustrated_Hubs said:


> Hi again everyone, apologies for the radio silence.
> 
> Wow, this thread has been busy while I've been offline.
> 
> ...


Oh, this is just fan-f'ing-tastic!!!!


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Frustrated_Hubs said:


> I announce in advance that I am biased and projecting:
> 
> I think she's doing what she has to to keep you, and once she feels like you'll stay, she'll revert. *This is unhelpful and negative.*
> 
> ...


Have you ever been snow-skiing? There's a saying: "Wherever you look is where you'll go." You can stay on the slopes by focusing or you can slide off the edge by always looking for the scary stuff off to the sides.

If you want your relationship to work out, look towards the positive. Otherwise, you will end up in the negative viewpoint that you are creating with your mind.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

happiness27 said:


> Have you ever been snow-skiing? There's a saying: "Wherever you look is where you'll go." You can stay on the slopes by focusing or you can slide off the edge by always looking for the scary stuff off to the sides.
> 
> If you want your relationship to work out, look towards the positive. Otherwise, you will end up in the negative viewpoint that you are creating with your mind.


I'd be careful with that one. There are a lot of life lessons to be learned from sports and I have tons of experience with that particular one. It's even more applicable in mountain biking where the rider may be faced with many challenging obstacles, some of which may be near impossible to clear without dismounting. An heres the thing: if you focus on the obstacle, that's exactly where you'll go... no further. If you want to get over and beyond that big rock in the middle of the trail, you have to acknowledge it, but put your focus _beyond_ it. The more you focus on the rock itself, the more you doom yourself to never getting beyond it.

However...

In taking the same approach to my marriage, that is ackn9and understanding the obstacles between where I am and where I want to go, but not dwelling on them and rather focusing on the goal that lies beyond, I've gotten what? Decades of infrequent, lackluster sex and I remain utterly defeated by my personal rock.

I think where the analogy breaks down is that in the sport, the outcome is 100% dictated by my skill and confidence level whereas, in the relationship, there's another party involved, with her own thoughts, emotions, and feelings, all of which may add up to an obstacle that stands independent of the drive, desire, and even ability, of the person trying to move beyond.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I'd be careful with that one. There are a lot of life lessons to be learned from sports and I have tons of experience with that particular one. It's even more applicable in mountain biking where the rider may be faced with many challenging obstacles, some of which may be near impossible to clear without dismounting. An heres the thing: if you focus on the obstacle, that's exactly where you'll go... no further. If you want to get over and beyond that big rock in the middle of the trail, you have to acknowledge it, but put your focus _beyond_ it. The more you focus on the rock itself, the more you doom yourself to never getting beyond it.
> 
> However...
> 
> ...


Aaaaaand to get back to what I was pointing out was: if you focus on the negative, you only see the negative. Here is the OP in the midst of getting exactly what he wanted and he's already thinking about how this isn't going to last and has gotten negative comments from other posters to further him along this negative thinking - which sounds like a really bad place to take your brain.

What you focus on is what you see. Focus on the negative and you see the negative. Focus on the positive and you see the positive. Pick one.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Happiness, if I were you, I'd be careful about questioning the understanding of people who have actually BEEN in the OPs shoes.

I get that you sympathize with those who starve their partners.

I dont. I lived on the rejected side for way over a decade. Believe it or not, you are not the arbiter of what is helpful.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

personofinterest said:


> Happiness, if I were you, I'd be careful about questioning the understanding of people who have actually BEEN in the OPs shoes.
> 
> I get that you sympathize with those who starve their partners.
> 
> I dont. I lived on the rejected side for way over a decade. Believe it or not, you are not the arbiter of what is helpful.


You probably haven't read my posts where I *have* been in this situation. Nine years with a partner who did not want to have sex except sporadically. I do not sympathize "with those who starve their partners" as you put it.

What I do, however, is read carefully and not make snap judgements without evidence.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

happiness27 said:


> Aaaaaand to get back to what I was pointing out was: if you focus on the negative, you only see the negative. Here is the OP in the midst of getting exactly what he wanted and he's already thinking about how this isn't going to last and has gotten negative comments from other posters to further him along this negative thinking - which sounds like a really bad place to take your brain.
> 
> What you focus on is what you see. Focus on the negative and you see the negative. Focus on the positive and you see the positive. Pick one.


Yes, but while focusing on the negative may guarantee you a negative outcome, the reverse isn't necessarily true. Focusing on the positive doesn't guarantee a positive result, especially when there are others involved who may not share your view of what constitutes positive.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> happiness27 said:
> 
> 
> > Aaaaaand to get back to what I was pointing out was: if you focus on the negative, you only see the negative. Here is the OP in the midst of getting exactly what he wanted and he's already thinking about how this isn't going to last and has gotten negative comments from other posters to further him along this negative thinking - which sounds like a really bad place to take your brain.
> ...


Positivity and negativity are both perceptions. Saying that focusing on the positive might not create a positive result is, yet again, a negative perception that brings about a negative result. So much has been written on the power of positive thinking, its hard to ignore how state of mind and perception works here. 

I read a story once about a guy who kept complaining about his wife and how miserable his life was with her. It was suggested to him that he change his attitude, perception and behavior towards his wife - put on a new pair of glasses, so to speak. He went home determined to try it, however reluctantly. To his amazement, he came back several weeks later and exclaimed how much his wife had changed into a loving responsive spouse. Same guy, changed perception, new results.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

100% agree with this. 

If you carefully read the first two posts in this thread you discover their sex life gradually cratered. And what transpired during that time was numerous conversations about why he was unhappy. As to why sex was becoming bad for her - we have no idea because the OP has no idea. Because despite that (her increasing aversion to sex) being obvious - he chose not to ask WHY.

At some point she concluded it was far safer to lie. And he proved the truth of that by accepting her repeated statements about feeling desire, sex being good for her etc. all the while she is avoiding sex like the plague. Thing is he clearly and repeatedly chose to embrace the lies she was telling - instead of demanding the truth - whatever it is. And he did that over a very long time period. Her conclusion was that protecting his ego was way more important than attempting to fix their broken sex life.

I admit to being the voice of experience. I too was in a sexless marriage - for 5 days. On the fifth day I ran what a marriage counselor would likely call: a reciprocity play

It is a simple play, you GIVE your partner what you want to GET from them. In this particular case that wasn’t sex. It was something way more valuable, the truth. So I told M2 the truth. Not the nonsense I read here on TAM over and over where the deprived spouse says: I might some day think about calling a divorce lawyer if you still haven’t slept with me in two or three olympiads. 

Instead I said, seems like we are ‘here’ - so effective immediately you are relieved of your wifely duties - we always joked about that phrase - this was the one time in our whole marriage I wasn’t joking. Not even a little. 

To be fair - me saying what was true only produced half the truth from her in the moment. The other half came later. But it was more than enough to wake her up. 






Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I'd be careful with that one. There are a lot of life lessons to be learned from sports and I have tons of experience with that particular one. It's even more applicable in mountain biking where the rider may be faced with many challenging obstacles, some of which may be near impossible to clear without dismounting. An heres the thing: if you focus on the obstacle, that's exactly where you'll go... no further. If you want to get over and beyond that big rock in the middle of the trail, you have to acknowledge it, but put your focus _beyond_ it. The more you focus on the rock itself, the more you doom yourself to never getting beyond it.
> 
> However...
> 
> ...


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

happiness27 said:


> Positivity and negativity are both perceptions. Saying that focusing on the positive might not create a positive result is, yet again, a negative perception that brings about a negative result. So much has been written on the power of positive thinking, its hard to ignore how state of mind and perception works here.
> 
> I read a story once about a guy who kept complaining about his wife and how miserable his life was with her. It was suggested to him that he change his attitude, perception and behavior towards his wife - put on a new pair of glasses, so to speak. He went home determined to try it, however reluctantly. To his amazement, he came back several weeks later and exclaimed how much his wife had changed into a loving responsive spouse. Same guy, changed perception, new results.



In many cases, this is true. But in some cases, the realization that positive expectations may yield negative results is not a perception, but rather a fact borne of years of hard experience.

Oh yeah, I guess one could simply change their _perception_ of the outcome and suddenly decide that continuing a sexless marriage is a positive outcome, but that would be self delusion, not a solution.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> In many cases, this is true. But in some cases, the realization that positive expectations may yield negative results is not a perception, but rather a fact borne of years of hard experience.
> 
> Oh yeah, I guess one could simply change their _perception_ of the outcome and suddenly decide that continuing a sexless marriage is a positive outcome, but that would be self delusion, not a solution.


If the outcome a person chooses (should a marriage continue with no resolution to a sexless situation) would be divorce, why would that not be a positive? I did that with my sexless marriage and it was a great outcome for me. 

Your premise assumes that the OP is going to continue to be in a sexless marriage - because, I put to you, there are those here who are already predicting that the spouse is evil and plotting to hook him with some temporary sex just to turn around and trick him again. That's a negative projection that has no basis in truth since no one can predict their future. Maybe she IS evil and diabolical and trying to trick him (negative viewpoint). But, MAYBE, she is trying and got her switch flipped and she is rediscovering something in their marriage that was formerly causing issues for them (positive viewpoint). Since no one has a crystal ball, I suggest the OP focus on the positive in order to INFLUENCE a positive outcome.

He can always join the 50% who choose to end their marriage anytime he wants to ring the bell and get out - for any reason. 

I've been married three times. The first was for nine years in a pretty much sexless marriage where I was 13 years his junior and in my 20s. He was flabbergasted when I said I wanted a divorce finally, after years of begging him to increase our sex frequency and communicating often and clearly. He was resistant to therapy and refused to talk about any issues until after I brought up divorce. It was too late. So, I am not coming from a place where I don't understand sexless marriages and their consequences.

The second marriage failed because my spouse liked too many other women and gave me an STD, then refused to admit it came from him. Bye-bye.

My present marriage has been solid for 28 years because we are a very committed, well-matched couple who fight for the relationship on a daily basis in every way. It STILL has not been easy. As anybody with a long marriage can attest to - 20+ years means a whole lot of things happen not only within the relationship but around the relationship: loss of a child, loss of parents, years living apart when overseas work required it, ups and downs of all kinds. We weren't perfect all of those years but one thing we agreed upon when we decided to be a couple was: commitment. 

I have to chuckle when people talk about going without sex for awhile - yes, it's difficult, real damn difficult and I won't make light of THAT. (We went 8 years apart with him working overseas, seeing each other only 30 days a year). We've dealt with a plethora of what others would call "deal breakers". But when it comes down to it: we really dig each other. We are totally INTO each other. We don't trust anybody else more than each other. We know each other better than anybody else knows us. Our song is "Broken Road" and I gave my husband a beautiful custom designed ring for our 25th anniversary that is designed as a broken road. 

When I hear people throw out the D word so casually, I do feel heartbroken for them. I know it's hard to stay married under tough circumstances. It's really hard to keep TRYING when everyone around you is saying "Ditch (him/her") - and YOU are the one who has to live with the consequences of making such a life-changing decision. When you are 20, 30 or 40, the pool of possibilities seems to look really good compared to the work you have to do on the relationship you have.

But, guess what? EVERY relationship is work - it just may or may not be the same set of problems. It's still problems and issues to overcome and resolve. You don't just go out there and automatically find another match that is just right. 

What my husband and I have done is beyond anything we ever accomplished with anyone else - because, no matter what - we KEPT GOING. 

My husband recently was feeling down and negative for a couple of weeks. It's understandable as he has quite a few irons in the fire right now. We didn't have sex for about a week and I was getting concerned since he's a daily sex guy. I asked him what was going on - and because of all the hard work we have done to learn to communicate with each other, he was able to articulate some things that were on his mind. I could see he was taking a negative viewpoint on everything around him. I pointed that out to him and asked him to look at some of the things that were positive in his life - and there are many. Because he was willing to try that, it lifted his mood. I asked him to do something for me in the morning to cuddle and be loving physically, which he also tried. 

Later in the day after some appointments, we went back to bed and had sex all afternoon. 

Look, I'm just saying that people who hang in there and try - and work at it - both people, two committed people - and this can be any couple who wants to do it - they can make their marriage work and turn tough times around. My husband and I have done it many, many times. 

I want to encourage people here. I don't want to discourage people - by projecting negative, scary scenarios on them about "oh, THIS could happen" or "she probably going to screw you over" or "she's just trying to trick you" or "you need to divorce him because he looks at porn" - that's just not helpful. And I think a marriage forum is a place where people are trying to find advice from other who have found success in solving problems. Life isn't perfect and there are no one-size-fits-all solutions. 

But I'm a big believer in being positive with people who are suffering from problems. Problems can very often times be solved. They don't always spell disaster.


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## Frustrated_Hubs (Jun 23, 2018)

@happiness27

You are right in that I should focus on the positive with this recent development, however that is easier said than done.

The current run of frequent sex, the likes of which we haven't had since we first met even during our good times, does not undo the past 2-3 years and its impact on our relationship. Perhaps if there had been some explaination given as to what has been / is going on I would find it easier to keep a positive outlook. As it stands though I still have unanswered questions, ones I'm afraid to ask for fear of her flipping it around and saying shes damned if she does and damned if she doesn't (which I would understand to an extent).

My outlook has been negative for a long time, and its made me view all aspects of life with a negative spin. Expect the worse and you cannot be disapointed. I don't like viewing things this way but its where I'm at. Perhaps if our relationship stays in this good place my perception will change over time, here's to hoping.

I want to thank you for sticking with this thread, I could see your frustration with me and others in your posts and thought you would abandon it altogether at one point. You are like the light in a storm here for me (no offence to other posters), I so hope your positive outlook bares fruit and our relationship recovers fully from whatever this is. Your posts have kept me grounded and reminded me of the possibility that things can be regained when I'm focused on the negative.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

I am very glad that you have been in joying the kind of sex couples in love should be enjoying for the last few days or weeks. It feels great, I know it does. And I would absolutely love it if you were the one in a million person for whom this is not a vicious cycle. It would be great if you did not end up like me and every other person in a sexless marriage I have encountered in 11 years of being on forums. I hope she isn't just placating you until the crisis passes and then goes back to normal. I would be thrilled if you became the 1st person I have ever seen on a forum whose sex life really did make a perminent and dramatic turnaround.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

personofinterest said:


> I am very glad that you have been in joying the kind of sex couples in love should be enjoying for the last few days or weeks. It feels great, I know it does. And I would absolutely love it if you were the one in a million person for whom this is not a vicious cycle. It would be great if you did not end up like me and every other person in a sexless marriage I have encountered in 11 years of being on forums. I hope she isn't just placating you until the crisis passes and then goes back to normal. I would be thrilled if you became the 1st person I have ever seen on a forum whose sex life really did make a perminent and dramatic turnaround.


And we return you to your regular scheduled Doom and Gloom station.

You know, I made the mistake one time of confiding in a friend during some troubles I was perceiving with my husband. She said to me: "I don't see you guys making it."

Did I ditch my husband? 

No. 

I ditched my friend.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

happiness27 said:


> And we return you to your regular scheduled Doom and Gloom station.


I know it may seem that way.

When I was in my sexless marriage, there were points at which my ex knew that I was reaching the end of my rope. Or I had enough of a breakdown that he noticed. Or we tried marriage counseling. More time than I want to remember, he would seem to step up, at least some. One time we even had sex 3 or 4 times a week for a couple of months. I tried to stay neutral, but every time, it felt so good to finally be wanted, I let myself hope. I let myself relax into thinking we had conquered the issue. And when, a few months later, we were back in the same place....well, each time the cycle happened it hurt worse. Kind of like those fight scenes where the guy gets up over and over, but each time it takes him a little longer, and he's a little more bloody.

If I am wrong and OP and his wife are still having a great sex life a year from now, I will be thrilled that I was too negative. But if I am not wrong....I don't want ANYONE to have to live that cycle as many times as I did. If I have to seem like a Debbie downer to help someone else not have to live through it, I'll take the label.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

personofinterest said:


> I know it may seem that way.
> 
> When I was in my sexless marriage, there were points at which my ex knew that I was reaching the end of my rope. Or I had enough of a breakdown that he noticed. Or we tried marriage counseling. More time than I want to remember, he would seem to step up, at least some. One time we even had sex 3 or 4 times a week for a couple of months. I tried to stay neutral, but every time, it felt so good to finally be wanted, I let myself hope. I let myself relax into thinking we had conquered the issue. And when, a few months later, we were back in the same place....well, each time the cycle happened it hurt worse. Kind of like those fight scenes where the guy gets up over and over, but each time it takes him a little longer, and he's a little more bloody.
> 
> If I am wrong and OP and his wife are still having a great sex life a year from now, I will be thrilled that I was too negative. But if I am not wrong....I don't want ANYONE to have to live that cycle as many times as I did. If I have to seem like a Debbie downer to help someone else not have to live through it, I'll take the label.


If every couple who had sexual issues ended up in a hopeless situation, then it would be correct to make a prediction that 100% of couples end up miserable or divorced.

However, one of the things that can happen on a forum full of people discussing marital issues is that the people with the most unhappiness end up posting the most. Could it be that people who work through their issues don't end up on marriage forums very often and people who had hopeless situations find a greater need to join together in groups to complain and warn others?

My first marriage, I was very young - all during my 20s and marriage counseling wasn't a common concept, nor was it very affordable and it wasn't covered by insurance. It was very hard to resolve any kind of disagreement of any kind. There was no internet to run to for any kind of information or advice.

In my present marriage, MC is widely available and we have taken advantage of it many times as a variety of life incidences have happened to us over the years - blended family matters, death of a child, separate work countries, loss of parents, etc.

I do think that people are capable of evolving and changing and growing together. There's no formula to either doom or success. But there IS commitment. 
Plus, the resources to help people work through their issues is just a vast, rich pool now. People who are encouraged and determined can surmount so much more than before. 

There's a great book I found called "Crucial Conversations - Tools for Talking When Stakes Are High" - that teaches people ways of communicating effectively without destructiveness. 

Frankly, divorce is really danged expensive for both people in the couple. This alone ought to shake some sense into TWO people when they are screwing around playing immature games with each other instead of working towards the betterment of each other and advancing themselves...their group...their tribe. Couples who band together and trust each other to have each other's back can build an amazing, amazing - ENVIABLE - relationship that is strong and powerful. 

Or, yeah, hey - go back out there and fish for something better...and, statistically, within 2 years, you'll be right back in the same place with somebody else.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

H27,
I think you will find that people who are able to differentiate being positive from being ego protective - get a really good outcome.

What I typically see here is examples of the latter. For example: my partner orgasms every time we have sex - this leads to the positive assumption that sex is good for them. 

But when that same partner is avoiding sex like the plague - it isn’t positive to fixate on why they ought do what you want. 

The OP in this thread continues to fly blind. He has no idea why sex stopped and then resumed. Understandably he’s anxious. 





happiness27 said:


> If the outcome a person chooses (should a marriage continue with no resolution to a sexless situation) would be divorce, why would that not be a positive? I did that with my sexless marriage and it was a great outcome for me.
> 
> Your premise assumes that the OP is going to continue to be in a sexless marriage - because, I put to you, there are those here who are already predicting that the spouse is evil and plotting to hook him with some temporary sex just to turn around and trick him again. That's a negative projection that has no basis in truth since no one can predict their future. Maybe she IS evil and diabolical and trying to trick him (negative viewpoint). But, MAYBE, she is trying and got her switch flipped and she is rediscovering something in their marriage that was formerly causing issues for them (positive viewpoint). Since no one has a crystal ball, I suggest the OP focus on the positive in order to INFLUENCE a positive outcome.
> 
> ...


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Any updates?


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## Frustrated_Hubs (Jun 23, 2018)

Hi everybody,

Firstly apologies for resurrecting a six month old thread, but I guess seeing as it is my thread that its allowed. Particularly considering the last post was someone requesting an update.

So I vanished from this site seemingly because I was getting my end away and that was all I was interested in, right???? Hardly. I hate to admit it but @personofinterest was right. The rekindling of our sex life was a temporary measure to try and placate me and died off about a week or two after I stopped posting. That was the last time I had sex with my wife.

The third therapy session was a complete bust, our therapist was a complete waste of time and frankly she needs to be struck off. Obviously we were in the midst of the sex tsunami so she was full of herself. She honestly believed that her having a go at me over being a bit of a sex-fiend must have dampened my attitude and fixed us. We didn't go back after the third visit.

I've carried on with the path I was on, I'm now 60 lbs lighter than when I started this thread and I'm sitting comfortably at 170 lbs now and have never felt better about myself. My social 'issues' are still there, but I have read lots more about it and joined a forum with other people who suffer the same. I'm getting out more and starting to interact more with people too on a social level.

So why now, why 6 months after the last post on this thread (to the day, eerie that) do I decide to update you all. Well about three weeks ago I walked out, just upped and left. I didn't talk to the wife about it in great detail I just explained to her how I felt, that we had reverted back to how we were and I wasn't willing to live my life feeling undesired and left. I'm currently back with my mum until I find my own place and having my daughter over a few days a week (I really do miss my daughter though, not being with her daily is killing me). 

There has never been any explanation as to why a sex has become such an issue for my wife, and frankly I'm past caring. She didn't want me to go, she tells me regularly that she is devastated and that I should come back, things will be better, blah blah. I told her bluntly "give me the honest truth about why your desire for me died and I may consider coming back" (I don't think I would but figured it was worth a shot to try and finally get some answers) but as always her response was that it hasn't, she still wants me, desires me, the usual Lip Service. All she wants is my wallet and her chauffeur back.

I wanted to thank you all for your input and comments in the past, particularly @happiness27 for your optimism that things could get better (your positivity really helped when I was low) and @farsidejunky you gave so much of your time to me and were invaluable in helping me see how much work I needed to do on me separate to my marriage.

I'm sorry for just disappearing on you all, I wanted to deal with things for myself. I needed to be sure that leaving was a decision I made for and by myself and not one influenced by other people. I will though answer any questions if anyone cares enough and wants to fill in the blanks.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

It is good to hear from you, despite the fact that it did not work out.

Trust the process, brother. If tailored correctly, it will lead to the outcome you desire. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Frustrated_Hubs said:


> Hi everybody,
> 
> Firstly apologies for resurrecting a six month old thread, but I guess seeing as it is my thread that its allowed. Particularly considering the last post was someone requesting an update.
> 
> ...


Glad to hear from you and that you have moved forward. Sex is a huge issue in marriages and the lack of it is soul crushing. You did what you had to do. May your path forward bring you greater success. And, hey, what a great health move to lose 60lbs. That's quite an accomplishment.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Props for standing up for yourself. Bottom line it looks like was that she just isn’t into you anymore. Of course lazy could be part of it too. I have suspected that in the past.


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## Frustrated_Hubs (Jun 23, 2018)

farsidejunky said:


> It is good to hear from you, despite the fact that it did not work out.
> 
> Trust the process, brother. If tailored correctly, it will lead to the outcome you desire.


Thanks FJ, I'm not sure if I would say things did not work out. Maybe they didn't work out as I initially anticipated / wanted but already only 3 weeks in I am a much happier person and my daughter is no longer living in a situation full of tension and resentment. 



happiness27 said:


> Glad to hear from you and that you have moved forward. Sex is a huge issue in marriages and the lack of it is soul crushing. You did what you had to do. May your path forward bring you greater success. And, hey, what a great health move to lose 60lbs. That's quite an accomplishment.


Thanks H27, and yeah I feel like a different person entirely from who I was 6 months ago when I was last here. Physically and emotionally I'm in a much better place now.



Chaparral said:


> Props for standing up for yourself. Bottom line it looks like was that she just isn’t into you anymore. Of course lazy could be part of it too. I have suspected that in the past.


I'm past caring about the reasons behind the disconnect to be honest. I think in retrospect that it was a loss of interest in me, although that doesn't explain why she asks me to come back regularly. Its immaterial now though really.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Incompatibility trumps love. 

She didn’t care that you were unhappy and she definitely was comfortable being blatantly dishonest with you. 





Frustrated_Hubs said:


> Thanks FJ, I'm not sure if I would say things did not work out. Maybe they didn't work out as I initially anticipated / wanted but already only 3 weeks in I am a much happier person and my daughter is no longer living in a situation full of tension and resentment.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Outstanding!

Sorry that you went through all this. 

There's very little harder to work through than a long marriage hitting the rocks and no matter what's done still crashes and burns.

One has to come to grips with a different world as well as endure the normal stages of grief when something "dies" in their lives. 

It sounds like you're doing all the right things. When looking back you know you've tried to the nth degree. 

Good for you, losing 60lbs! Not always an easy task.

Your mind seems settled and you're planning ahead. That itself is just as important as everything else.

Your peace of mind will only get better knowing the future is free of a lot of weight you've been carrying. 

Thanks for sharing!


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

Frustrated_Hubs said:


> Thanks FJ, I'm not sure if I would say things did not work out. Maybe they didn't work out as I initially anticipated / wanted but already only 3 weeks in I am a much happier person and my daughter is no longer living in a situation full of tension and resentment.
> 
> Distance and no contact will always bring clarity
> 
> ...


You are correct you'd only get more of what you've already gotten


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

She wants your paycheck back. 

But as to wanting you back in her bed - No.




Frustrated_Hubs said:


> Thanks FJ, I'm not sure if I would say things did not work out. Maybe they didn't work out as I initially anticipated / wanted but already only 3 weeks in I am a much happier person and my daughter is no longer living in a situation full of tension and resentment.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## [email protected] (Dec 23, 2017)

Frustrated_Hubs, I wish I had seen your posts 6 months ago because I would have warned you off about marriage counselors. I have written this previously, but I'll repeat it now. If you ever want to see a collection of screwballs in one place, go to a MSW convention! A lot of MCs go into the field because of their own problems.


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## PM1 (Aug 9, 2011)

Good luck with your daughter. Hopefully the improvement in quality of time will somewhat offset the reduced quantity (since I assume a happier you means better quality time). It must be tough though, so I wish you well.


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