# WW Posted on Another Site. Not Sure How to Proceed



## fleek (Jul 20, 2016)

I hope this is okay and not against any rules or guidelines. I read the guidelines sticky and the forum rules and I don't think I'm breaking any of them. Mods, if this is inappropriate, please delete this post (and please don't ban me). I'm not purposely doing anything wrong.

My WW posted this on SI SurvivingInfidelity.com - Seeking help

I occasionally read there, but don't really post there. She mentioned this post to me in passing. She gives the PG13 version but she lays out what basically happened but she left out some critical details. I should say this from the start too, I am far from perfect. I should have handled certain things differently early in our marriage. I was young and under a lot of stress, which are really only excuses for what I did. I had advanced at my company into a position that required a degree which I did not have at the time. They gave me the job and were paying 100% of my college education at a very good school. They were flexible in my work schedule and bent over backwards to make sure I succeeded. I juggled a new job where I felt the need to prove myself somewhat, STEM field college courses, and a family with 3 kids (5, 3, and 18mos). 14-16 hour days and very little sleep were common for me. To top things off, we had just purchased a house and money was tight. The budget was stretched and the last child was unplanned. She forgot to take her birth control pills. Any unexpected expense, car repair, appliance breakdown, etc., was a complete crisis. I'm putting this out there because I want to set the stage. We were both stressed. I needed my wife to step up and take some of my burden. I needed her to accept more responsibilities for the kids and take a more active role in running the household. I tried to explain that this would be temporary situation. My income would more than double once I had the degree. Unfortunately, my wife did not rise to the occasion. She prioritized attending kid birthday parties for extended family and coworkers over housework and laundry. She never missed a get together or party of any sort. We had some pretty heated fights about these things. That's really an understatement, things got out of hand sometimes. 

Here's the part where I went wrong. We started to occasionally physically fight. I wish I could say I was always the defender and never the initiator, but that would not be true. I am not the one that "broke the seal" on the taking things to this level either. She took things too far 80% of the time and I did the other 20%. We would be arguing, I would piss her off, and she would just snap and fling herself into me like a damn wildcat. This little 5'3" 120# woman is throwing haymakers at me (6' 185#) and trying to claw my eyes out. I was astonished when it first happened. The absurdity of her attacks was more than I could comprehend. I would physically restrain her, and not gently either, to stop her onslaughts. I would sometimes throw her over my shoulder and toss her out of the house. I knew physically dominating her pushed her buttons. I never punched or beat her. The crazy thing is these fights became some sort of twisted foreplay and were almost always followed by awesome make up sex. Crazy, volatile, dysfunctional stuff. I look back at it and I'm ashamed about how I handled myself. I have no excuses for physically fighting with my wife. I should have handled things much differently. Thank god the kids didn't witness any of this firsthand. 

That situation sets the stage for the affair. It was coworker 'not just friends' affair. Pretty typical sex for attention thing. He put in the work to woo my wife. Lasted 6 months. She claims the last 2 months were her trying to break it off. 10-12 sexual encounters. Her AP more or less stalked her when it was over. She changed jobs and he would follow her after work, tailgate her and try to get her to pull over. Sit outside her new workplace at lunch. He pressured her into "one last time" which she claims made her feel disgusted with herself. He ramped up the stalking and she eventually told him to stop harassing her or she would call the police. He offered her a ring and promised to start a life with her. She turned him down. He then threw her under the bus and told me about the affair - along with some of the details. The AP's wife contacted me too. I had my wife sit down and answer any of the woman's questions. He gave the ring he bought for my wife to his wife as some sort of new start. His wife was crushed when she heard about the ring and I believe that tipped her to immediate divorce. He got a domestic violence charge, lost his job, and was divorced in pretty short order. I also made her tell her parents and my parents in person that she cheated. Good times were had by all. I didn't deal with fog or any other end of affair crap that many folks deal with. I went into a tailspin though. I stupidly had a drunken one night stand on an out of town business trip in the middle of all of this too. I honestly have never felt guilt like that before. I felt like a complete POS - just like my father. I went against every moral fiber I thought I had and did something I promised myself I would never do. I feel somewhat disgusted with myself even writing that now. 

I didn't know how to proceed at first. My knee jerk reaction was to divorce her right away. She cheated, I had cheated, we physically fought, this was clearly a broken marriage. I spoke to an attorney and he advised me to keep her around if I could tolerate it at all. I would have years of dealing with her anyway because of child support and co-parenting. He also said because the kids were so young the chances of me getting primary custody were pretty much nil. I would have also been screwed at my job and school. Divorce would have meant bankruptcy and we would have certainly lost the house. I am also a child of divorce. My parents divorced when I was 9 or so. My dad cheated and left to live with his mistress. It was a complete mess for me as a kid. Awkward stepmother drama, weird step-sibling drama, uncomfortable holidays, moving from childhood home to a new school, guilt, you name it I had it. He divorces new wife a year or so later and I lost contact with my father. He moved out of state and stopped paying child support. My mom, sister and I were basically living in poverty for awhile. I didn't see him until a few days after my 18th birthday when he showed up on our doorstep out of the blue. I really did not want that crap for my children. I feared I would lose touch with them too and my childhood history would repeat itself for them. 

So hyper-bonding kicked in, I stayed and we went to counseling. The marriage counselor basically facilitated blame shifting. I had guilt about the physical fights and my cheating. We more or less rug swept the whole thing and tried to cope with the fallout as best we could. The marriage became a one day at a time endeavor for me. The physical fights stop. I would not tolerate and disrespect like that anymore. I am certain I would have pummeled her to oblivion if she struck me again and wound up in jail. I had barely controlled rage brewing under the surface. She maintained the affair was just something "fun and different and she got positive attention" and it happened because I was "mean to her and made her feel unloved". Those were pretty much her go to answers to "why?" and the marriage counseling supported this notion. Unmet needs not character deficiencies or lack of integrity. This pissed me off and I didn't always handle the anger very well. I never really regained trust or respect for her. The tone of our relationship changed and I eventually lost my connection with my wife. I hope that makes sense. We used to have passionate sex 5-7 times a week prior to the affair and it dropped to 3-4 times a week without much passion. The affair would come up in arguments 2-3 times a year. Year after year we would have groundhog day fights about the whole mess. I would call her names and berate her and we would sort of makeup. We lived pretty separate lives IMO. She does not see things this way at all and maintains she felt loved and her love for me grew over the years. I did graduate though. Income dramatically improved. Money was no longer an issue. Some of the stresses went away. I exercised to ridiculous levels to keep myself sane. We did do some normal married couple things. We raised our kids. But there was always an elephant in the room. I skirted around two emotional affairs (or overly close female friendships) over the years. I was lonely as hell. 

I decided pretty early on I would just go through the motions in this marriage until the nest was empty. The rest of the story is in my wife's post on SI. The last 2-3 years have been a nightmare. She scheduled a polygraph test, confirmed the examiner with me, and had the examiner send me the report directly via email. I don't think there are any unknown secrets anymore. She's gone to personal therapy. She's made major life changes. I have put her through all the circles of hell. There has been some recent insights too. I took the MBTI test for work. We had some stupid straight out of Dilbert corporate initiative about team composition and personality types. I tested as an INTJ which is supposedly somewhat uncommon. I even had to speak to a psychologist and retake the test and still scored INTJ. My wife took an online MBTI and found out she's an ESFP. Which means we are complete opposite personality types. I didn't really put much stock in this test at first but, after reading some of the different personality strengths and weaknesses online, the stuff pretty much nailed the causes of our marriage issues. Opposites can attract and intrigue each other but they can also drive each other guano crazy. I believe we fit into both camps on different occasions. The love languages book offered some insights too. My wife has been doing a crazy amount of reading and self introspection. She approaches life differently now. She's doing all of the driving trying to save the marriage and I pretty much toss up hoops for her to jump through. She leaves notes on the bathroom mirror, sends loving texts, buys me small thoughtful gifts, gives me handwritten letters, prepares special meals and a host of other things. She is kind and thoughtful in other aspects of her life too. She seems to understand personal boundaries now and has demonstrated change and has consistently demonstrated this change for 2.5 years. She expresses gratitude and appreciation for trivial things now. She has matured and has shown a tremendous amount of personal growth. I haven't made things easy for her at all either. I've been harsh and doubting. I accuse her of trying to manipulate me. I test her over and over and she never wavers. I don't know what to think. I have things structured so a divorce is pretty straightforward financially. There won't be any alimony, child support, or custody issues. No step-anything drama. She's agreed to a preliminary draft for property and asset division. We can split without a bunch of fanfare or a lengthy court battle. She's even willing to sign a post-nup too. I believe she would do anything I asked of her now. I've lost the need to seek revenge or grind her face in what's she's done. 

So I'm now conflicted and I don't usually feel that way about anything. I've always done the math so to speak and then go with what I've decided content that my decision is thought out. Some of the variables have changed in this math problem though and I find myself in unfamiliar territory. Am I a blooming idiot for considering staying with her and working through this mess? I don't really know what work I need to do either. I read threads here and they seem to start out great but a few pages in things almost always go awry and the betrayed person gets a new batch of crap to swallow and it ultimately means they wasted a bunch of time and energy. I'm in my mid forties and I don't want to waste any more time on a marriage that won't be fulfilling. My situation isn't really as clear cut as some here either. I am not without sin myself. I can see how a new start would work out too. I've spent years thinking about how I would start over and there is no fear involved in that decision. That path out of this ordeal seems to be the surest one to me. I would be master of my own destiny. I also have a job opportunity in another state, 1300 miles away from where I'm at, with an established company that's rapidly growing. It's in the Research Triangle and job opportunities seem plentiful if the new gig didn't work out for some reason. New job, more personal income, new area to discover that's full of cool history, freedom to explore new relationships, but retirement date would be impacted. Or new old wife, holiday family traditions are intact, secure job and two incomes, 2 healthy 401k accounts, kids\extended family are not impacted, we get to experience future grandkids together, but there's uncertainty about intimacy and emotional connection. 

So what do you folks think?


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

When did the affair occur?


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## fleek (Jul 20, 2016)

Blondilocks said:


> When did the affair occur?


Almost 18 years ago.


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## katies (May 19, 2015)

1st - does she know about your ONS?
2nd - are you in any kind of IC? Even though you say your physical fighting is over, your entire post seethes with rage. I suspect SOME of that is what she did, and SOME of that is being left by your dad. That said, you're a big boy who needs to take control and ownership of your own actions.

I have to add - I had an affair first and then hubby had two, along with a lot of emotional punishment. I've about had it. If you can't forgive, fine. Then do the honorable thing and file for divorce.


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## katies (May 19, 2015)

fleek said:


> Or new old wife, holiday family traditions are intact, secure job and two incomes, 2 healthy 401k accounts, kids\extended family are not impacted, we get to experience future grandkids together, but there's uncertainty about intimacy and emotional connection.
> 
> So what do you folks think?


Where's the part about loving her?


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## rockon (May 18, 2016)

Felt like I just finished a novel by Leo Tolstoy.


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## fleek (Jul 20, 2016)

katies said:


> 1st - does she know about your ONS?
> 2nd - are you in any kind of IC? Even though you say your physical fighting is over, your entire post seethes with rage. I suspect SOME of that is what she did, and SOME of that is being left by your dad. That said, you're a big boy who needs to take control and ownership of your own actions.


Yes she knows about it. There's no more dirty laundry to air between us. 

I am not laying any blame for my misdeeds on her. I'm not trying to paint myself as some perfect golden boy BH that some evil hoe betrayed. I made my own choices. I had other more appropriate options that I failed to take. 

The rage thing has haunted me for years. It impacted other areas of my life - work, friendships, even road rage. I thought (think?) I finally had a handle on it. I am a bit surprised to hear you say it comes through in my post. 

I tried counseling but I came to the conclusion it's just not for me. I felt like I was paying $100hr for a sympathetic ear. I never received any insight into my situation of guidance about how to proceed. I need more than an empathetic listener validating my feelings. Maybe I just got a bum counselor.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Do you love your wife?

Gotta say that she hasn't been the best of wives. She admits that and now seems to have seen the light. Since your kids are grown you have to decide if you want to seriously work on your marriage. A good marriage counselor can help you. But, geez, there is just so much **** under the bridge that I don't see how you can overcome it. If the thought of working on the marriage gives you a knot in your stomach, then you have your answer. Good luck.

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## fleek (Jul 20, 2016)

Love her? That's a complicated question. I do feel some nostalgic "love" for her, we've lived a lot of life together. I don't have an emotional connection with her now. I cannot make myself vulnerable to her. There are lingering trust and respect issues, I don't see how these ever return to pre A levels. I do have a certain fondness for her. I don't consider her to be "special" anymore. I have communicated this to my WW. She feels it will return in time with her consistent actions. I'm not so sure. I do feel some of my attitude towards her to be more positive recently. 

It's a flipping mess really.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

I'm having a hard time understanding how it's ok for you to throw her affair in her face when you cheated too.

I can understand revenge affairs but the problem is that you lose your moral high ground. If you're going to engage in one it should really be an ok now we're even type thing.

I get that she had hers first, but would you not me throwing it in her face if it had been a ONS like yours?

If you're going to continue to stew over it when you had your own then yes, you are wasting your time.


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## katies (May 19, 2015)

Your first order of business needs to be healing you. You need a better IC than you've had. Do you do any reading about healing from betrayal - both hers and your dad's? This was a long journey for me but it has to be done. You deserve to be in a partnership that you're fully vested and vulnerable in. So does she.


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## threelittlestars (Feb 18, 2016)

I read your wife's post. 

I read yours. I see a lot of guilt in yours and hers to a degree. Maybe hers is lesser...I don't know if i can or even should rank them. 

Look...You only stayed because of an irrational fear of being like your father. Thats pretty motivating...and you stayed in a barely tolerable marriage all this time. Your kids saw that...this is what they think marriage is... Maybe they did not see you fight, but I'm sure they did not see mutual love...just toleration and maybe some respect for her being mother of your kids... But seriously...you have been going through the motions all along. 

I think you are still attached to the idea of a marriage with the mother of you kids. Attached to the concept, but she...she gets in the way of making that concept a reality for you. You have by your own admission had sex with one person not your wife and got emotionally involved with two others. You are a monogamous man partnered with someone you can't seem to forgive and fall back in love with. I believe you do have love for her...but beyond the initial love and kids and life you built i just don't see much there for you. 

The opposite may be said for her. She could absolutely adore and value you now. BUT our own actions can have unintended consequences sometimes...and those consequences can be delayed or echoed repeatedly through our lives. I think this is her situation. She lost you and your love, devotion a long time ago...she just never realized it. 

Advice? 

End this as gently as you can. She deserves the last what 16? years back just as much as you do. After all, she just realized to a degree that the last 16 years were a lie... 

But this is life, its not fair, but try to move on. No i don't think there is anything to salvage...16 years...you have been trying to find a reason to stay...and you still don't have a good enough one. This is why you are still asking yourself the question. you don't like the answer, and its to leave.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

When would you say things started to take a positive turn? How many years ago?


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## threelittlestars (Feb 18, 2016)

double post edit.


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## fleek (Jul 20, 2016)

I have to add - I had an affair first and then hubby had two, along with a lot of emotional punishment. I've about had it. If you can't forgive, fine. Then do the honorable thing and file for divorce.

^I just saw your edit katies. 

Your situation is pretty dang similar! Are you working through your issues with your H? How far out are you? 

I can do the part of forgiveness where you say you refuse to be impacted by the transgressions of another and release feelings of anger and the desire to punish that person. I am through punishing her. It's simply not helping me to feel any better about the situation. I've taken my pound of flesh and then some. I see the folly in that process now. 

I cannot do the absolution part of forgiveness though.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

I'd say you need to get off the fence. 

After 18 years and a revenge affair of your own, and apparently still having lingering resentment for her A; it's about time you made a decision. Either commit to your marriage 100% or leave. 

And by committing, I mean forgiving her and doing your best to meet her needs. At least she seems to be trying to repair the marriage from her end. (I'd recommend that you both read "His Needs, Her Needs" by Harley). 

But as unfair as it might seem to divorce her so long after her A, it would be more unfair to waste more years of her life with a resentful husband who's just waiting to leave when it's more convenient.


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## Grapes (Oct 21, 2016)

What a history man!

There is only 1 guarantee and its that no one can tell the future and you cannot control another human. Could you be wasting even more time in your life by staying, maybe yes maybe no. There is no way to know that.

You've kind of started it but you may benefit from the classic pros and cons list. Unfortunately this isnt a math equation with right or wrong answers. Its all grey man. The only constant is you and the answer is your happiness!

Just don't leave your kids.


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## fleek (Jul 20, 2016)

lifeistooshort said:


> I'm having a hard time understanding how it's ok for you to throw her affair in her face when you cheated too.
> 
> I can understand revenge affairs but the problem is that you lose your moral high ground. If you're going to engage in one it should really be an ok now we're even type thing.
> 
> ...


There is a difference between a 6mo A and a drunken ONS stand in response to it. 

I disagree with you on the moral high ground. I did not draw first blood here. I did not rationalize some B.S. reasons to cheat. I felt emasculated, hurt, ashamed, embarrassed, angry, confused, and taken advantage of and I made a choice I thought would help me and simultaneously give her a taste of her own medicine. This was in direct response to her actions. It didn't turn out so well for me either. I had gut wrenching guilt about it and it damn sure didn't make me feel better about the situation. I don't think it hurt her as much as her A hurt me either. It didn't level the scales of justice at all.


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## fleek (Jul 20, 2016)

GusPolinski said:


> When would you say things started to take a positive turn? How many years ago?


2.5 years ago or so


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

fleek said:


> 2.5 years ago or so


Eh... nowhere near enough positive to put up w/ all that crap.

I mean... what's the point? What's the takeaway? Hang in there long enough and you might *eventually* have a decent spouse and marriage...?

No thanks.

I'd bail.


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## fleek (Jul 20, 2016)

Threelittlestars, I hear what you're saying. It's hard to end an almost 24yr marriage. The whole sunk cost thing screws with me. I know I won't have some of the positive things that I have with my WW in a new relationship. I know I won't have a bunch of the negative stuff either. 

I know I need to commit or leave. It's easier said than done. I don't know where to start on connecting with her. Maybe it's a simple change in mindset. I don't know where to start.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

I read her story on SI a coupe of days ago. I thought she sounded...conveniently remorseful. In other words, I wasn't sure I believed her.

You are actually confirming her story, and her level of remorse.

I think both of you sound very honest and humble about this whole thing. Those are two necessary things for reconciliation.

Are you in a position where your heart is guarded? I would think so given the way you are testing her. 

We don't test someone unless we want them to pass. That means somewhere you want to R. 

So, what will it take, because she sounds like she is doing all the right things.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

farsidejunky said:


> I read her story on SI a coupe of days ago. I thought she sounded...conveniently remorseful. In other words, I wasn't sure I believed her.
> 
> You are actually confirming her story.
> 
> ...


I'll disagree w/ this.


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## TBT (Dec 20, 2011)

I see by your first post here last year that you said you were in R for a long time. From what I've read of both of your stories it seems you never made a true attempt at R at all. You made a decision to hold on for the kids to get older and it doesn't appear that you made that clear from the start. Your heart wasn't completely in it and I would assume,to a point,that your wife picked up on it over the years. So maybe that's why she wasn't putting in her best effort as well.

It seems that the amount of effort that she has put in over the last few years is the thing that is making you question the decision that you made years ago. I'm just wondering where your marriage would be right now if you had both put in a real effort for all those years... maybe,neither of you would be in need of these forums right now.

Try a real reconciliation or divorce,but try not to waste too many more years with you both being unhappy. Good luck.


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## fleek (Jul 20, 2016)

farsidejunky said:


> I read her story on SI a coupe of days ago. I thought she sounded...conveniently remorseful. In other words, I wasn't sure I believed her.
> 
> You are actually confirming her story.
> 
> ...


I must admit, I was shocked at how she presented our story. She left out my misdeeds completely in her post. She didn't look for the "well that SOB cheated too" sympathy. The "old" her would have overstated my junk and understated hers. 

I am absolutely guarding my heart. It terrifies me to think about opening myself up to her. R is a lot to consider. I coped with this by always thinking divorce was the answer. It was a no brainer when she was self centered, selfish, and blaming me. Now she is different. Now I have to come to terms with other aspects of the betrayal that I put off by punishing her and divorcing her when the time was right. I don't know where to start down the path of R. I really can't see myself doing MC ever again. I feel completely conflicted about the whole damn thing.


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## TX-SC (Aug 25, 2015)

Would you say that your wife really is a different person now, or just better at faking it? Honestly, given the amount of water under the bridge, it might be impossible for you to ever love her again. But, if she is genuinely a different person now, genuinely remorseful, etc. I might try to restart and rekindle the romance. You've been through a lot here. Don't underestimate what she has done. Physical and emotional abuse, cheating, lying, blameshifting, etc., any ONE of which could destroy a marriage. Only you can say if you have it in you to try again. There is no right answer, only what you feel is right for you. 

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk


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## fleek (Jul 20, 2016)

TBT said:


> I see by your first post here last year that you said you were in R for a long time. From what I've read of both of your stories it seems you never made a true attempt at R at all. You made a decision to hold on for the kids to get older and it doesn't appear that you made that clear from the start. Your heart wasn't completely in it and I would assume,to a point,that your wife picked up on it over the years. So maybe that's why she wasn't putting in her best effort as well.
> 
> *It seems that the amount of effort that she has put in over the last few years is the thing that is making you question the decision that you made years ago. I'm just wondering where your marriage would be right now if you had both put in a real effort for all those years... maybe,neither of you would be in need of these forums right now.
> *
> Try a real reconciliation or divorce,but try not to waste too many more years with you both being unhappy. Good luck.


That is 100% true. 

In retrospect, I don't think we made a true attempt at R either. I feel certain my wife did not pick up on my thoughts about leaving all these years. She was in her own little bubble. She thought I didn't divorce her so we were good. She rationalized away the rages and other issues we were having too. She was unaware of the EAs until recently too. She totally avoided any discussion about the A.


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

lifeistooshort said:


> I'm having a hard time understanding how it's ok for you to throw her affair in her face when you cheated too.
> 
> I can understand revenge affairs but the problem is that you lose your moral high ground. If you're going to engage in one it should really be an ok now we're even type thing.
> 
> ...


I don't think he is stewing over the affair. 

His point is that the affairs broke the bond that tied them together. He just stayed for the sake of the kids and now that the nest is empty he is ready to leave. 

One problem, his wife has actually fallen in love with him and doing anything she can to keep him. This has confused the heck out of him.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

fleek said:


> There is a difference between a 6mo A and a drunken ONS stand in response to it.
> 
> I disagree with you on the moral high ground. I did not draw first blood here. I did not rationalize some B.S. reasons to cheat.


Yes, there is a difference. But you would be in a much better position to expect her to do the heaving lifting, if you didn't "rationalize" that a revenge affair would be the right response. So you did lose some moral high ground; just not all of it.


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## fleek (Jul 20, 2016)

TX-SC, I doubted the changes too. I thought it was love bombing or hoovering. My mentioning D was what spawned this whole mess. I thought she was manipulating me and trying to engineer the outcome she wanted which was for us to stay married. 

I lean the other way now. It's hard to explain but her demeanor is different. She approaches life situations differently. She has empathy now. She has taken a horrendous amount of verbal and emotional brow beating from me and not thrown any back my way. She beats herself up for what's she's done. She constantly apologizes. She's riddled with guilt and shame. You can see it in her eyes. I don't think she has it in her to fake all the changes she's made. Who knows, she fooled me once before...

Believe me, I don't underestimate what she has done. I've born the brunt of the consequences of her choices. MC probably could have fixed what was wrong in our marriage before she cheated. I loved her very much. Now, two families have been destroyed. Generations of lives, some yet to come, impacted by one woman's stupid choice to cheat. Untold amounts of mental energy, time, money, sleepless nights, and heartache for a bit of flattery and a few sexual encounters, the bulk of which were in a truck. The whole thing is absolutely asinine. Nobody involved escaped consequences in this tale of woe.


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## fleek (Jul 20, 2016)

badmemory said:


> So you did lose some moral high ground; just not all of it.


I totally agree with that. 

I don't think my response to her cheating totally exonerates her from her choice to cheat in the first place. Lose some but not all.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

fleek said:


> I totally agree with that.
> 
> I don't think my response to her cheating totally exonerates her from her choice to cheat in the first place. Lose some but not all.


And your two subsequent EAs plus her kissing the guy in the truck pretty much makes you both serial cheaters.

Let each other go. Neither of you is satisfied by the other.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

fleek said:


> That is 100% true.
> 
> In retrospect, I don't think we made a true attempt at R either. I feel certain my wife did not pick up on my thoughts about leaving all these years. She was in her own little bubble. She thought I didn't divorce her so we were good. She rationalized away the rages and other issues we were having too. She was unaware of the EAs until recently too. She totally avoided any discussion about the A.


What has she done to fix her brokenness? I don't mean realizing what she is missing if you leave. I mean when the sh*t hits the fan, when shes gains 10 pounds feeling bad about herself and some new guy tells her she is hot kind of brokeness. That should be your focus because the sh*t always hits the fan. 

In the same respect, you can't expect her to work on her brokeness without you working on yours. You need to do this to have hope for any successful relationship with anyone in the future. My stepfather had rage issues. It destroyed his life. He lost my mother, me and lives alone. The sad thing is, he had it under control for the first 3 years of their marriage. My mother and I often talk about if he had stayed like that they would still be married. I don't believe you can't control it because if you were in a room with Mike Tyson and felt rage at him I bet you would control it. That is your biggest problem right there. All people who use rage do so to control others. It's about intimidation. FIX THAT SH*T! No one likes counseling. Adults do stuff they don't like all the time to improve themselves. 

Back to your marriage, the biggest thing is this is a hell of a lot of work and sacrifice. If you don't love her, why bother, you may love someone else and not have the sacrifice. Don't stay in a marriage because of fear, it won't be healthy, you won't be healthy. Maybe you are too scared to admit you still love her. That's different. 

Again if you don't fix yourself you aren't going to have a good relationship with anyone.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

fleek said:


> There is a difference between a 6mo A and a drunken ONS stand in response to it.
> 
> I disagree with you on the moral high ground. I did not draw first blood here. I did not rationalize some B.S. reasons to cheat. I felt emasculated, hurt, ashamed, embarrassed, angry, confused, and taken advantage of and I made a choice I thought would help me and simultaneously give her a taste of her own medicine. This was in direct response to her actions. It didn't turn out so well for me either. I had gut wrenching guilt about it and it damn sure didn't make me feel better about the situation. I don't think it hurt her as much as her A hurt me either. It didn't level the scales of justice at all.


Yes she did. But if you're going to use that as a justification why not have a bunch more ONS's? I mean, she drew first blood so now there's no standards of behavior for you, right?

As I said, I totally understand why you had one, I just think you gave up some moral high ground.

And to be honest I get a general tone from you of nothing is really your fault. Sure you admit that you aren't perfect but pretty much everything you've done has been in response to things she's done.

So she caused everything, you're at fault for nothing. How's that attitude going to work for you even if you move on to someone new? Probably not well.

So she went to birthday parties while you went to school? I get that you were working hard.....I've worked full time, gone to school, and raised kids at the same time (and my degree is in STEM-physics) so I understand what that's like. But you don't seem to have any real appreciation for the fact that your wife was raising three little kids essentially alone. Was it really that big of a deal that she wasn't doing laundry as often as you wanted? That was what you wanted to fight about? She was raising them alone and she certainly didn't have your company. Not your fault.....you were working and going to school, but did it ever occur to you that this was how she coped?

Did you get nasty with her when she didn't perform household tasks that you thought she should? When she says you were mean to her what exactly does that mean?

I'm trying to get a feel for the dynamics of the entire marriage. I think too often on TAM when there's an affair involved it tends to eclipse everything and the betrayed spouse is elevated to sainthood (I forget who here said that but someone did). That's not to say she dealt with things well because clearly she did not, and you had every right to lay down boundaries for moving forward and to dump her if you felt like you needed to. But you chose to stay.

And I don't sense any real ability to introspect from you, only anger at the evils that have been heaped upon you throughout your entire marriage. Yes her 6 month affair was lousy and you were rightfully angry about that, but it seems to me that you have a general angry victim mentality as it relates to all parts of your marriage.

It would be one thing if you had a balanced view of the whole marriage and were only angry about her affair.....that I could understand. But your anger permeates the entire marriage and you seem to think you're the only who who sacrificed and contributed.

If you can't get beyond this then do both of you a favor and end this.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

You barely mention the children. How old are they? Are any of them still at home? Do you REALLY want to be living 1,300 miles away from them? How often do you think you will see them at that distance?


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

fleek said:


> TX-SC, I doubted the changes too. I thought it was love bombing or hoovering. My mentioning D was what spawned this whole mess. I thought she was manipulating me and trying to engineer the outcome she wanted which was for us to stay married.
> 
> I lean the other way now. It's hard to explain but her demeanor is different. She approaches life situations differently. She has empathy now. She has taken a horrendous amount of verbal and emotional brow beating from me and not thrown any back my way. She beats herself up for what's she's done. She constantly apologizes. She's riddled with guilt and shame. You can see it in her eyes. I don't think she has it in her to fake all the changes she's made. Who knows, she fooled me once before...
> 
> Believe me, I don't underestimate what she has done. I've born the brunt of the consequences of her choices. MC probably could have fixed what was wrong in our marriage before she cheated. I loved her very much. Now, two families have been destroyed. Generations of lives, some yet to come, impacted by one woman's stupid choice to cheat. Untold amounts of mental energy, time, money, sleepless nights, and heartache for a bit of flattery and a few sexual encounters, the bulk of which were in a truck. The whole thing is absolutely asinine. Nobody involved escaped consequences in this tale of woe.


My thing with people like your wife is just because they are one way today, that doesn't mean 10 years from now they get tired and change again. Their integrity is not based on their honor and right and wrong (you know, the black and white thinking that is scoffed at by today's academics), it's based on how they feel. Feelings change.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

lifeistooshort said:


> Yes she did. But if you're going to use that as a justification why not have a bunch more ONS's? I mean, she drew first blood so now there's no standards of behavior for you, right?
> 
> As I said, I totally understand why you had one, I just think you gave up some moral high ground.
> 
> ...


I don't agree the very first paragraph in his first post was all the crap he did. I personally didn't read it thinking he is all that great a husband so he didn't paint that picture.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

sokillme said:


> I don't agree the very first paragraph in his first post was all the crap he did. I personally didn't read it thinking he is all that great a husband so he didn't paint that picture.


True but if you read closely he really doesn't own any of it. 

Everything was in response to her. Apparently he has no control over himself and is forced to respond the way he does.

There's a difference between acknowledging and owning.

That's basically the argument used when a cheater says "yes I cheated but you were mean".

Acknowledging but not owning.


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## bigfoot (Jan 22, 2014)

As I read your post in conjunction with hers and separately, I come to the same conclusion each time. You guys have a lot of issues individually and as a couple. I say the following with the best intentions.

You fought. Issue number one. You guys never really learned to respect yourselves or the other person. If you did, you would not have lowered yourselves to violence. Alcohol seems to have played a roll in other stuff. Too big of a roll. You have lived sort of a lie with your wife by deciding years ago to leave in the future. That is just practically sociopathic at some level. She did not pick up on anything being amiss. That is almost delusional at some level. Lack of empathy is clear.

I think that what you guys called a marriage, anyone else would have just called existing without war.

MC is not going to work because each of you has some serious issues to deal with and need IC. Then again, at your ages, maybe you are so comfortably set in your individual dysfunctional ways that you don't want to change, in which case, your initial question makes sense.

My advice, change yourself. You focus on you. She needs to focus on her. No one needs to divorce or plan for it yet. Just try to get yourselves as close to "pretty good shape" as possible. Then, maybe you will see the value in MC and be willing to work on it. Alternatively, you decide to D. Still, each of you is really a mess. I mean this with the best of intentions and not to insult you, but two broken people don't make one fixed anything, they just make a broken something else.

Alcohol, tempers, anger, grief, FOO, hurts, bitterness, resentments, forgiveness, empathy, and clear-headedness are all currently missing and have been deficient for what seems to be the duration. No sunk cost analysis here. Starting over with the same problems will yield the same results.


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## fleek (Jul 20, 2016)

lifeistooshort said:


> Yes she did. But if you're going to use that as a justification why not have a bunch more ONS's? I mean, she drew first blood so now there's no standards of behavior for you, right?
> 
> As I said, I totally understand why you had one, I just think you gave up some moral high ground.
> 
> ...


I completely own my part of the marital issues prior to the A. I think my posts are pretty clear on that point. The A is on her. She did break the marriage contract. My behavior cannot compel her to do something that she thinks is unmoral or wrong. That same logic applies to me for the ONS. I had other options available to me and I chose to be petty and try to purposely inflict pain upon her. That's not a good thing. 

I can't possibly put every detail in these posts. She fully admits she shirked her mom and wife duties early in our M. It wasn't just birthday parties or similar events, she would go to my mom's house on weekends and sleep for hours while my mom watched the kids. She would go to her parent's house after work and stay and lounge for hours before heading home. I busted my butt working overtime for a mortgage down payment while she would nap or talk on the phone for hours. I would do laundry when possible, I would clean the house when possible. I gave baths. I changed diapers. I organized lunches, clothes, and other stuff for them at night too. I didn't expect her to do it all. I just needed her to be a partner. It wasn't feasible for me to do everything. This imbalance of the workload wasn't so apparent in our M until I started school. She would do dumb stuff like hide laundry and mail. She would spend money on trivial stuff or loan it to some family member and not pay bills. She wouldn't mail bills even when they were ready to go with stamps and all. She was selfish, lazy, and self centered. She would pout if she didn't get her way over trivial things. I didn't start out yelling and demanding she get off her lazy butt and do work. It did get tiresome after years of this same bs. I kept thinking she would see the big picture and pitch in. She focused entirely on the here and now and that didn't involve housework. Later in the M. I was the one helping with homework, having difficult talks with them. Pushing them to excel or not settle for less than they were capable of. Explaining right and wrong. I doled out punishment and praise. Mom was the fun one. I didn't trust her to raise them even half of the time. I do have some regrets, what parent doesn't, but I did the best I could at the time. She focused on work friends and other things that validated her and not necessarily her family. I think she alludes to some of this in her post.

I focused on how I missed some of these traits while we were dating. Thing is, you really don't know someone until you live with them. You don't know what kind of parent they will be. You don't know exactly The truth is we got married way too young because of a pregnancy. We both needed to mature some. Her more than me. I had fears of ending up dirt poor and not being able to provide for them. I felt it was my job to provide and her job to handle the bulk of the housework. That didn't pan out. It wasn't an ideal situation. 

Also, to bigfoot, I almost never drink. I don't think alcohol is an issue for either of us. 

I'm painting a grim picture but it wasn't all bad. In spite of all of this our kids turned out to be well adjusted, well balanced, level headed adults. One has graduated college and just got married and he and his wife seem crazy about each other. One is close to graduating with her teaching certificate. The youngest is living at home and going to community college. She wants to be a pediatric nurse. There's no substance issues with any of them. They have a varied circle of friends. They have solid relationships with their grandparents and other extended family members. The oldest two keep in touch even though they don't live at home. They seem to have a pretty good set of morals and great work ethics. We took some awesome family vacations together and we remiss about those times often. We have some neat family traditions at Thanksgiving and Christmas which the kids primarily drive now. I didn't sit around all of these years moping, feeling sorry for myself, and cursing the world or my wife. I have friends, hobbies, and my wife and I did do things together. Our kids have no idea this is part of our past. I'm 100% certain of this. 

I do think the issue is now with me. I just can't seem to "get over it". What is some of the work you folks think I need to do? What's the first step to start a true R?


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

fleek said:


> I completely own my part of the marital issues prior to the A. I think my posts are pretty clear on that point. The A is on her. She did break the marriage contract. My behavior cannot compel her to do something that she thinks is unmoral or wrong. That same logic applies to me for the ONS. I had other options available to me and I chose to be petty and try to purposely inflict pain upon her. That's not a good thing.
> 
> I can't possibly put every detail in these posts. She fully admits she shirked her mom and wife duties early in our M. It wasn't just birthday parties or similar events, she would go to my mom's house on weekends and sleep for hours while my mom watched the kids. She would go to her parent's house after work and stay and lounge for hours before heading home. I busted my butt working overtime for a mortgage down payment while she would nap or talk on the phone for hours. I would do laundry when possible, I would clean the house when possible. I gave baths. I changed diapers. I organized lunches, clothes, and other stuff for them at night too. I didn't expect her to do it all. I just needed her to be a partner. It wasn't feasible for me to do everything. This imbalance of the workload wasn't so apparent in our M until I started school. She would do dumb stuff like hide laundry and mail. She would spend money on trivial stuff or loan it to some family member and not pay bills. She wouldn't mail bills even when they were ready to go with stamps and all. She was selfish, lazy, and self centered. She would pout if she didn't get her way over trivial things. I didn't start out yelling and demanding she get off her lazy butt and do work. It did get tiresome after years of this same bs. I kept thinking she would see the big picture and pitch in. She focused entirely on the here and now and that didn't involve housework. Later in the M. I was the one helping with homework, having difficult talks with them. Pushing them to excel or not settle for less than they were capable of. Explaining right and wrong. I doled out punishment and praise. Mom was the fun one. I didn't trust her to raise them even half of the time. I do have some regrets, what parent doesn't, but I did the best I could at the time. She focused on work friends and other things that validated her and not necessarily her family. I think she alludes to some of this in her post.
> 
> ...


Ok. It is hard to get an accurate tone while writing and reading posts, so often they can come across different from how they are intended.

And I can certainly understand the not knowing someone until you live with them.....I knew my first husband for 3 months before we got married and he turned nasty almost overnight when he realized that marriage and ultimately kids meant he couldn't do him and screw everyone else. And he had very specific ideas about where women belonged.

I divorced him, we didn't get along for some years, and have more recently made some peace with each other and our kids are also thriving. I would tell you that's because I'm stable and a strong personality, but I digress.

My ex would probably tell you I was lazy too, but the fact was I had terrible PPD and no family or support, plus a husband that was a nasty jerk and didn't life a finger to help raise his kids. I'm not suggesting this is you guys, only that there are all kinds of personal issues that can cause what from the outside looks like horribly lazy and selfish behavior.

As for now, you've got to let go of your anger.....there is no possible circumstance where it will serve you well. I find the best tool for this is compassion.....true my ex is a jerk but ultimately he does try to give what he can. It's just that he doesn't have much.....he's not evil, his parents just raised him to be selfish and look down on women. People's lousy actions are seldom really personal toward you.....they're a result of their own demons. I think too many recipients of lousy behavior take it personally.....this is an outlook that's helped me get past my CSA.

Try to imagine that your wife was likely battling her own demons and didn't do what she did to stick it to you. You aren't required to get past her affair, so if you ultimately decide you can't that's ok. But it's been 18 years.....it really is time to go or get off the pot. I recommend first dealing with your own anger at life and having some compassion for your wife. Not because she was a victim or you somehow wronged her but because she was very likely giving what she had to give at that time in your lives, even if it wasn't much. People do tend to give what they have to give. 

If after you do that you find you still can't get past her affair then divorce as amicably as possible. If there's anything else you need from her that you haven't made clear then make it clear to her now.


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## OnTheRocks (Sep 26, 2011)

Marriages are propped up by only two legs. If either leg fails or gets unhaaaaaapy, the marriage is done. Do you trust each other to hold this bargain forever? I didn't think so.


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## jsmart (Mar 14, 2015)

I just read her post on SI. I actually don't blame you for being so angry. I find it hard to believe that a WW would dare to insist on having male friends to hang out with and talk with. All that time away from you, hanging out with other men and she never hooked up? It was only that one time make out in the guy's truck? Sorry, I find that a bridge too far for me.

Also, all those times that she's "resting" at her parents, not taking your calls, could she have been out with an OM. You're busting your but raising the kids and keeping the home in order and she's leaving the house to rest and nap else where? Hmm, doesn't pass the smell test.

Could her FINALLY waking up be due to guilt of what she did with guy in pick up truck or some other guy? Probably not, this is a woman that placed her desire for hanging with men over her husband and her family. No, what's she's experiencing is dread. You finally standing up for yourself by letting her know you're dumping her adulteress behind has shocked her. Made her realize that she doesn't want to be a middle aged divorcee.

So is the change real? Has she shown through her actions that she loves you? A poly to find out if there have been other affairs should be done. 

I can understand wanting to continue this new R, she's the mother of your children. Future grandchildren seem more enjoyable with their mother by your side instead of a woman that's not vested in them.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

fleek said:


> I completely own my part of the marital issues prior to the A. I think my posts are pretty clear on that point. The A is on her. She did break the marriage contract. My behavior cannot compel her to do something that she thinks is unmoral or wrong. That same logic applies to me for the ONS. I had other options available to me and I chose to be petty and try to purposely inflict pain upon her. That's not a good thing.
> 
> I can't possibly put every detail in these posts. She fully admits she shirked her mom and wife duties early in our M. It wasn't just birthday parties or similar events, she would go to my mom's house on weekends and sleep for hours while my mom watched the kids. She would go to her parent's house after work and stay and lounge for hours before heading home. I busted my butt working overtime for a mortgage down payment while she would nap or talk on the phone for hours. I would do laundry when possible, I would clean the house when possible. I gave baths. I changed diapers. I organized lunches, clothes, and other stuff for them at night too. I didn't expect her to do it all. I just needed her to be a partner. It wasn't feasible for me to do everything. This imbalance of the workload wasn't so apparent in our M until I started school. She would do dumb stuff like hide laundry and mail. She would spend money on trivial stuff or loan it to some family member and not pay bills. She wouldn't mail bills even when they were ready to go with stamps and all. She was selfish, lazy, and self centered. She would pout if she didn't get her way over trivial things. I didn't start out yelling and demanding she get off her lazy butt and do work. It did get tiresome after years of this same bs. I kept thinking she would see the big picture and pitch in. She focused entirely on the here and now and that didn't involve housework. Later in the M. I was the one helping with homework, having difficult talks with them. Pushing them to excel or not settle for less than they were capable of. Explaining right and wrong. I doled out punishment and praise. Mom was the fun one. I didn't trust her to raise them even half of the time. I do have some regrets, what parent doesn't, but I did the best I could at the time. She focused on work friends and other things that validated her and not necessarily her family. I think she alludes to some of this in her post.
> 
> ...


I agree - the issue is now with you. I personally think this marriage is worth saving. You have gone through the worst - and now you are at the doors of your golden years. Why throw it all away - just because you "can't get over it". Let go of the resentment, take a risk. She has done her part of the work - why don't you do yours. Just think how awesome it could be if you did! 

If you divorce her now and start all over - who knows who or what you will end up with! Frankly, you are still going to have to do the work to make a new relationship work out! And you will be taking a risk opening your heart to anyone new! 

I would find a good IC and start to work on yourself! I personally believe "getting over it" is a choice you make and you are choosing to hold on to your resentment and disillusionment with her. It may not be simple and may require you to learn to change your thinking process - but it is totally doable - if you want it and are willing to do the work! It sounds like your wife really wants it and is already doing work towards that goal! The ball is totally in your court!

The first step to a real R is to commit to stay with your wife and make EVERY effort you have to make it work!! You say she is doing her part and has already taken that step - just do the same! 

My vote (if it counted) would be you stick it out and do your part in fixing yourself, then you both do your part to build TOGETHER the kind of marriage you both want! And then have a marvelous golden life together! I am willing to bet you will be glad you did in the end!!


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## Red Sonja (Sep 8, 2012)

First let me say that I admire the fact that you stayed and saved your children from suffering the consequences of their mother’s dumbass-ery … her affair and uninvolved mothering style. If you had divorced 18 years ago and the children were left in her primary custody I shudder to think how that would have affected them in the long-term. For that reason alone there is no “sunk cost” in your situation, those 18 years were of tremendous value to your children.

I have no idea if your wife had an epiphany 2.5 years ago when you told her of your intent to divorce OR if her behavior since that time is an elaborate and manipulative ruse. There are no guarantees but I am here to tell you that there are people in this world that are capable of pulling off this exact type of ruse. I was married to one.

My 28 year marriage followed a similar course. Once our child was raised and launched into college I pulled the plug on my marriage. The difference is that my husband knew very well of my plans. He evidently did not believe I was serious because when I did leave he acted gob-smacked and frantically started an all-out effort of self-improvement to persuade me to give him another chance. After a few months I (stupidly) decided to give him one, he was in IC and things seemed to be genuinely improving between us. Almost one year later I found that he was seeing (yet) another woman. He had been stringing me along until he could find my replacement. 

I do not believe that people who consistently behave in a selfish/compassionless manner (for years) all of a sudden develop empathy and a conscious … IC or no. My opinion is from experience and not “expert” I know, however it is something to consider.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*If you feel like there's a mutual, common element of trust still there between the two of you, then you both need to be in MC and/or IC!

Otherwise, you need to be off in a family court seeking to end this travesty of a marital union!*


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## katies (May 19, 2015)

lifeistooshort said:


> True but if you read closely he really doesn't own any of it.
> 
> Everything was in response to her. Apparently he has no control over himself and is forced to respond the way he does.
> 
> ...


This is what I was talking about right here. What your wife did on SI was totally own what she did and not point fingers. You pointed fingers to her, your father, your FOO issues, heck even personality differences between you and your wife. NONE of that matters. You made a choice to act out. If someone else has THAT MUCH POWER in your life that they determine YOUR actions then you are not a healthy individual. 
I told this to my husband the other day.

Yes we have similar stories, OP. My husband and I love each other and are in love with each other and that is why I stay. Additionally, we had a great friendship our first 23 years of marriage. He was much on the sacrificial career path you were with going to school, working full time, babies. But I took the lion's share of the household work and did not party and sleep as your wife did. THOSE KINDS OF THINGS are what has been saving us. We had 3 months of acting out each, late in our marriage. I don't want to throw away an entire life and marriage for that. Your situation is different. You have more forgiving to do, seems like. 
But peace in your heart needs to happen some way no matter who you're with. Good luck!


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## Dr. Stupid (Dec 8, 2016)

I may go against the grain here. I am as adamant about cheating being a bullet to the head of a relationship as anyone else on TAM, but I have this feeling that you have something that you can build upon in your relationship with your wife. 

I don't have time to do a critical analysis and conclusion at the moment, but here are my feelings on the situation.

You married young, and not at the time of your choosing, due to an unforeseen pregnancy. You both did what you considered to be the honorable thing, had the child, and got married. I commend you for that. 

Children and young adults can be far different people than their adult selves. People change, with some maturing faster than others. You matured quickly due to the weight of responsibility being hoisted upon you suddenly. Your wife remained a child, selfish, oblivious to the needs of others, and irresponsible. 

You child-wife cheated on you. The impact of this can never be understated, but the majority of your post dealt not with her cheating, but her lack of responsibility. Why is that? 

You cheated on your wife. Two wrongs do not make a right. It was a despicable act, just as hers was. I will never see an affair of 6 months worse than a one night stand. I will never see that as being different as an emotional affair or affairs. The emotional impact, at its core, is the same. Humans will often try to quantify their misdeeds. Even the law says that capital murder is murder with extenuating circumstances, but the truth remains, the victim is still dead. 

I will go further, and expect some fallout from this, but spending almost 2 decades hiding from your wife that you thought that the marriage was dead was dishonorable as well. You were unfaithful to your wife because you allowed her to presume that you loved her as a wife, and yet, you did not. That was the prime years of your lives spent in the lie of your choosing. You thought that you were doing the honorable thing for your children. I get that, but you never gave her the opportunity to make that choice for herself as well, a loveless marriage for the sake of the children. In fact, if you had both chosen to make that sacrifice, it would have allowed both of you to own the relationship, and to potentially start healing. You denied both your wife and yourself that opportunity. Furthermore, in denying that opportunity, you denied potential positive outcomes for your children. Nobody, even professional Hollywood actors, put on an Emmy performance in every film. Did your children ever see true love between you and your wife? I doubt that. They saw amateur acting on your part. They saw a B-Grade movie. Will this impact their lives? That remains to be seen. 

Your wife cheated on you. You cheated on her in many ways yourself. Do not try to quantify that. You owned up to your role in everything. Just as she is owning up to her mistakes, after understanding the true extent of the fallout, after almost 2 decades of your infidelity, you have started owning up to yours. She has, as far as we can see, put her all into showing you how much she truly loves you. She may have done this years ago, if she was given the chance. You did not give her that chance. 

Were you to blame for her cheating on you? Of course not. She did not honor her commitment, but you haven't either.

So everyone is to blame for this mess. She cheated. You cheated. Everyone could have moved on with their lives, instead of just you. You wasted years of your life, and you wasted years of her life, because you weren't honest. 

Now the question is if you can trust her in her attempts to rebuild your relationship. 

If not, then don't waste any more of your life with her. Let her go. Let her deal with the pain now. Stop punishing both you and your wife. 

If you believe that the new wife is truly new and feel as if you want to make a go of it, then you need to get all of your frustrations out in the open. You need to allow her to speak her mind, any time, anywhere. You both need to be totally transparent. You both need to commit to some hard work and openness. No more hiding feelings for the sake of ____________.

I believe that it can be done. My gut instinct is that your wife had grown up, and only realized after you threatened divorce that she wasn't doing what she needed to do to help you heal. She may have had the desire to become the wife that you wanted, but didn't know how, because you checked out and played games. So, after years of being hoodwinked, she's still willing to go all in. My gut instinct is that if you didn't have feelings for your grown up wife, you wouldn't be here asking for advice. 

I'm not trashing you Fleek. I know that you're confused and have a whole bunch of pent up emotions. In the grand scheme of things, you both hurt each other. You were both lost. I feel for you, but you need to know that, even though she cheated on you first and dishonored your marriage first, you spent years doing the very same thing, and you denied both of you the chance to heal. You spent 18 years shut down "for the kids' sake". Seriously? That could have been 18 years of healing, instead, it was wasted time. 

Get off of the fence now.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

fleek said:


> There is a difference between a 6mo A and a drunken ONS stand in response to it.


I agree. Both are wrong but there is a BIG difference. Like manslaughter vs first degree murder difference.



fleek said:


> I felt emasculated, hurt, ashamed, embarrassed, angry, confused, and taken advantage of and I made a choice I thought would help me and simultaneously give her a taste of her own medicine. This was in direct response to her actions.


I 100% sympathize with this feeling as well. I will NEVER fault anyone for a RA. Sorry if this offends but if the WS is POS enough to cheat then they ought to be man/woman enough to suck it up and reap what they have sown.

Ultimately, the best thing to do is don't waste your time on the RA nonsense and just dump the cheat. Then you won't have to deal with any faux guilt over cheating on a cheater.


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## fleek (Jul 20, 2016)

I do appreciate all of the responses and suggestions. It's good to get a variety of viewpoints and opinions. This discussion has given me a lot to think about.

I want clarify a couple of things. I understand that the RA was wrong. Believe me, I've spent a lot of time coming to terms with that choice. Since I'm being honest here, it did help me in some ways. From that act, I knew the A wasn't about me and I don't suffer from some of the typical BH insecurities you see frequently posted. I knew I could still attract a beautiful woman, pick her up, sexually satisfy her, and have her wanting to see me again. I knew I wouldn't be forever alone if I split from my wife. I knew I had options. The downside was I became what I freaking hated - a cheater, just like dear old dad. I couldn't do the mental gymnastics to rationalize what I did or to continue the behavior. I broke vows and lost my integrity because I wanted to burn my wife and prove my manhood to myself. I felt guilty and regretted my actions immediately. I wasn't thinking clearly and made a poor choice in the midst of an emotional crisis. It also did not impact my WW the way I thought it would. For me, the bad outweighed the good. It still bothers me to this day. I also know I would never have cheated if my wife remained faithful. 

I have to admit, I am unclear about the whole EA thing. We read 'Not Just Friends' and I see how I was on the slippery slope, really any opposite sex friendship could be, but I don't feel I crossed the boundary from friend to EA. There were no I love yous or 100s of text messages sent. No crotch pics were exchanged either. There was no swooning. My WW and the MC we were seeing at the time felt differently. I think my WW felt threatened because of her behavior and projected her issues onto me and my friendship. The opposite sex friends thing can be a tricky situation and I did change the nature of the friendship.

I do feel like I've wasted years of my life Dr Stupid. It's too late for woulda, coulda, shoulda. I don't know if her metamorphosis is because we have a comfortable lifestyle with our combined incomes, retirement should be comfortable and on schedule. She also has an intact reputation with her children and almost everyone else she knows. In other words, I'm a comfortable plan B and she really can't do better now. Divorce would certainly change some of these things. Or if she truly has grown up, realized her wrongdoings, loves me, and wants to make amends.


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## harrybrown (May 22, 2013)

Have you read online about affair recovery .com?

Some of the things there have helped me.

Maybe give their online class a try. 

Just a thought.

good luck, but hope you find some peace after all this time.


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## Dr. Stupid (Dec 8, 2016)

fleek said:


> I do appreciate all of the responses and suggestions. It's good to get a variety of viewpoints and opinions. This discussion has given me a lot to think about.
> 
> I want clarify a couple of things. I understand that the RA was wrong. Believe me, I've spent a lot of time coming to terms with that choice. Since I'm being honest here, it did help me in some ways. From that act, I knew the A wasn't about me and I don't suffer from some of the typical BH insecurities you see frequently posted. I knew I could still attract a beautiful woman, pick her up, sexually satisfy her, and have her wanting to see me again. I knew I wouldn't be forever alone if I split from my wife. I knew I had options. The downside was I became what I freaking hated - a cheater, just like dear old dad. I couldn't do the mental gymnastics to rationalize what I did or to continue the behavior. I broke vows and lost my integrity because I wanted to burn my wife and prove my manhood to myself. I felt guilty and regretted my actions immediately. I wasn't thinking clearly and made a poor choice in the midst of an emotional crisis. It also did not impact my WW the way I thought it would. For me, the bad outweighed the good. It still bothers me to this day. I also know I would never have cheated if my wife remained faithful.
> 
> ...


I totally understand you wondering if she's being genuine or not. She has a lot to lose. Do you think that you do? The fact that she posted on the other message board means something, although, the fact that she pointed that out to you may have meant that she posted it knowing that you'd be in the audience. Is she being manipulative? That makes me feel uneasy about her intent. 

What makes me direct my comments more about you than about her is that you've spent so much time hiding your true self from her. If you were willing to spend that much time in limbo, what's another space of time spent finding out if she's being genuine? After all, how could she meet your needs if she didn't know what they were? 

I believe that people change, and often for the better, not as much once they're set in their ways, but certainly from being young adults to mature adults. That's why relationships break so often in those earlier years. You weathered many years where you both matured and grew, hopefully for the better. You're different people from when you froze your emotions in time. Is she a better person? Well...

The "kissing incident" a few years ago certainly was a HUGE mistake on her part. I totally understand why that would be a worrisome situation in the best of relationships with no trust issues, but with your baggage, that can be a devastating incident. I can completely understand how you'd be wounded all over again, or at the very least, receive confirmation that she's just as disloyal as she always was. 

I'm not saying that you should reconcile. I'm not saying that you should leave her. Only you will know the answer. 

All I am saying is that you suffered for so long, for a noble reason- the well-being of your children, and it would be nice for you to take the time to find out if your wife is truly remorseful. You gave her no opportunity to show remorse all those years, because you swept everything under the rug. Once she found out that you didn't forgive, then she reacted. 

I can't tell you how many times I've seen people hang on to a cheater, and wanted to scream at them, "Stop being a doormat! Leave!". So I'm not one who says "Reconcile at all costs", or "Do it for the children". This just seems different. She's either a master manipulator, fooling a jaded person like myself, who has seen EVERYTHING, or she's truly in love and remorseful. 

Like I said before, an affair is a bullet to the head of a marriage. She shot your marriage in the noggin, no doubt. You survived, a shadow of your former self, never allowing yourself to completely heal. Listen, there is no shame in saying, "I did my duty for my children. I did my best to keep the old drama from rearing its head all those years by burying my discontent, but it's time for me to go". 

I just have this gut feeling that watching and waiting for a little while, with a healthy dose of skepticism, communicating with her, asking hard and pointed questions, and looking hard at the answers, is not unreasonable, since on the surface she seems to be remorseful and she never knew the extent of your mistrust and discontent, so she couldn't address it properly. 

Regardless of what decision you make, I wish you love and happiness, and more importantly, you will have a ton of support here.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Since your wife has 'consistently demonstrated change for 2.5 years', why have the last 2-3 years been a nightmare? How many more years are you willing to wait and see? Even if she turns into the most wonderful wife you could imagine, would that be enough to drown out the pain of the first years? Only you have the answers.


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## Dr. Stupid (Dec 8, 2016)

...


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## Dr. Stupid (Dec 8, 2016)

Blondilocks said:


> Since your wife has 'consistently demonstrated change for 2.5 years', why have the last 2-3 years been a nightmare? How many more years are you willing to wait and see? Even if she turns into the most wonderful wife you could imagine, would that be enough to drown out the pain of the first years? Only you have the answers.


Since you mentioned that... I guess that I have this concern that he's been checked out so long that he can't check back in. 

The only reason that I wonder if he should wait and see, is because it appears that he wants *something*, hence, 2.5 years of waiting so far. Only now, he's reaching out for help here. 

Is it for a validation of his decision to leave? If so, he'll get that in spades. 

Is it because he feels like he's missing something, that he has something to give to make things work, but doesn't know what it is? 

Maybe he believes that the gravity of the decision is so great, that he wants to leave no stone unturned before making it. 

Perhaps it's misplaced loyalty that makes him confused, after all, he sacrificed years for his children. 

Maybe he worries that it's all an act to confuse him so that she may continue her life in relative stability, and he's waited 2.5 years for her to stumble again, but it's not happening, throwing a wrench in the plan that he's had for many moons. 

In the past, staying in a marriage for the children was commonplace. Today, it is very rare, thus, there are not many resources in his social circles for him to lean upon. 

The gap of time between his wife's initial affair, and his wanting to end their relationship because of it, is another extenuating circumstance which muddies up the waters. She may have very well reacted the way that she is now, many years ago, if she had known the true consequences. As I said, they never had the chance to truly reconcile, because he never demanded it. 

That is what makes this such a rare circumstance. He may have never really known how much she loved him, and she never really understood what she had to do to show it. She thought everything was fine. Either he's a great actor, or she's lacking in perception. 

Actions have consequences, and sometimes those consequences are a long time in coming, but he's here for a reason, and we need to help him found out what that reason is.


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## fleek (Jul 20, 2016)

Thank you Dr Stupid. I will lose in the divorce. I won't lose my reputation though. I also have had years to mentally prepare for it. I would be totally okay if we divorced tomorrow. I think I will approach this from a slightly different perspective and see how it goes. Let's hope I'm not being a complete idiot. 

I've learned it's impossible to communicate effectively with an angry person and I've been a very angry person. I do think I have a handle on the anger now. I white knuckled the issue years ago with physical activity and occasional outbursts. I am worn out really from dealing with this. The last 2-3yrs have been a nightmare because the kiss incident was disclosed and I basically tossed her out - it was a huge blowout. She scheduled a polygraph and that corroborated her story and verified and cleared up some things from the past. There's been MC, IC, books, and coming to terms with anger. There have been many sleepless nights spent discussing this junk. I've been on the verge of pulling the trigger on filing for divorce. We've worked up a preliminary divorce settlement. I've put her through the wringer emotionally. I've been cruel to her all while she's trying to get to the root of her issues, make things right with me, being a better mother, and coming to terms with what's she's done in the past. That stuff is not my idea of fun. 

I'll look at affair recovery .com too harry. Thanks.


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## fleek (Jul 20, 2016)

Dr. Stupid said:


> Since you mentioned that... I guess that I have this concern that he's been checked out so long that he can't check back in.
> 
> The only reason that I wonder if he should wait and see, is because it appears that he wants *something*, hence, 2.5 years of waiting so far. Only now, he's reaching out for help here.
> 
> ...


We must have posted at the same time.

Dude, you nailed the reasons I'm conflicted about leaving now. All of them more or less factor in to the equation. I am not taking this lightly, leaving impacts others too, it's a major decision. This change in her is new to me. Her default setting for years was happy. She is one of those people that chooses to be happy. She doesn't (and wouldn't) do any self introspection or examination because that would screw up her happy. I think she was so busy trying to force herself to be happy she missed (or chose not to see) major things I was doing. I am no actor by a long shot. I stopped wearing my wedding ring after the A, a ton of other things that point to "things have changed" but she didn't pick up on them or mentally explained them away. We've recently had discussions about this. It's odd to see her self conflicted. It's is odd to see her judge her actions in a negative way. She approaches life differently now. Whether it's a ruse or not is yet to be determined. 

She and I were not on the same wavelength at all. Now she's completely tuned in to how I'm feeling about something or my mood overall. She'll say she can tell something is bothering me and she's there if I want to discuss it. Before she was completely oblivious. She's open and kind even when I'm not. It's somewhat freaky and unnerving. That's part of the reason I'm here. I need some input on whether people change that much and if others have witnessed changes similar to what I'm describing. I also never really considered R before. I'm not sure how to go about that process if that's what we end up doing. I'm not sure what R looks like long term either. I don't want to be in a marriage where there's constant strife or I feel like I'm settling for something "less than". 

I worry about reattaching to her too. I've been detached for so long that it's comfortable to me. I really can't discuss this with buddies in the real world. There is really no need because I know what they would say.


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## threelittlestars (Feb 18, 2016)

I really DISLIKE what you just typed... I am not sure what you meant by it...maybe you could correct or clarify.. 

You are actually interested in ruining her reputation but feel yours would remain intact? Yes you have a RA, but you have also faked a marriage for 18 years. Im am sorry, but if i were a girl in your town I would think BOTH of your reputations to be inherently flawed. 

You may be right about her rep being more tarnished than yours, im just not in support of that double standard. 

You are being this way because she has changed. SHE HAS BECOME A BETTER PERSON, and you HATE that because she is taking away your imidiate EXCUSE to leave. I think you also resent that she has worked through a lot of issues and tried to be happy WITH you for 18 years while you reviled her... planned your escape and grew more bitter with time. 

I am a 28 year old mother of three sons 2-8 YEARS OLD. My house is sometimes messy, My looks are not the best. But i do everything i can to stay sane. If it means escaping this house with a screaming child and two boys fighting to go to a birthday party for a few hourse to talk to other parents and adults, I AM STILL A GOOD MOTHER! I am still a good wife. 

I know Im projecting, but i see myself in your wife, and i think what you had was UNREASONABLE expectations on how home life should be and a mother and wife should be. I am going to be frank here but you should shove those unreasonable exprectations and resentments up your butt! (Im sorry that was rude) But i think something along those lines need to be said. 

Now that does not give her reason to cheat. im not excusing the cheating, But i feel you have what is called A FAULT SEEKING MIND when it comes to your wife. You let EVERY little think fester inside of your soul. 

She cheated. She has boundary issues, but you sir...you have problems too and you are probably hurting your wife much more with your purposful anger, hate.

Now I dont want you to think im not on your side, we are often ignorant of these issues until its brought to our attention. 

Please. KNOCK off your anger about a LAZY wife. Because frankly you haven't a clue what she put up with.


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## threelittlestars (Feb 18, 2016)

And to add this fault seeking mind has run rampant because you have done it as a defense. Because you are right, you DONT want to reattach to her.


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## fleek (Jul 20, 2016)

DId you even read her post threelittlestars? Did you even read the thread? 

I didn't ruin her reputation, she did. The truth is the truth and folks can decide the fate of her reputation and mine.

I didn't expect a spotless house. That doesn't matter to me. I did expect her to do laundry instead of hiding it under beds and in the back of closets. That's childish and immature. I couldn't even do the laundry myself because it wasn't even in the damn hamper. Or occasionally empty and load the dishwasher. Life can't be all fun and games all of the time especially if you have young kids. She was lazy and selfish and she has made changes. Those fights about housework haven't happened for years. She used those fights about housework to justify her A. 

There's a helluva good reason for my anger. I could give you a few details of her A and I hope for your sake you wouldn't see yourself in her.


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## threelittlestars (Feb 18, 2016)

And you use her affair to justify or EXPLAIN your own behavior. You are guilty of the same TYPE of coping issue. You went and had an affair to get your mojo back. To see if it made you feel better. You are guilty of the same. Its just a matter of who did what first. 

I think your anger WAS warrented....(but this festering isn't). And im not saying it to defend your wife, I think she does not deserve second chance... (at all.) If you recall correctly i say divorce, with as much love and respect that your can muster. 

What I posted was for you to think more about YOUR mental health. YOU are denying any issue with yourself, and if there IS ONE, its caused by your wife. Wrong. This is incorrect. **** happens in life, its how you deal with it that matters and you are JUST AS IMMATURE AND DYSFUNCTIONAL as your wife is in my opinion. 

But even though i know my post is offensive probably...Im still on YOUR SIDE. i want you healthy...and sir, i don't read healthy mindset here..... I think you are well intending however.


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## threelittlestars (Feb 18, 2016)

and YES I READ HER POST. i READ IT FIRST DAY SHE POSTED and i read YOUR POST....im not having issues with comprehension. But maybe you are not comprehending my point?


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## Rushwater (Feb 11, 2013)

threelittlestars said:


> and YES I READ HER POST. i READ IT FIRST DAY SHE POSTED and i read YOUR POST....im not having issues with comprehension. But maybe you are not comprehending my point?


I'm not sure if the OP comprehended your point, but I certainly did. Yes, you are DEFINITELY projecting. I took the time to read both her and his separate posts, and it seems to me that they BOTH carry blame in this complete disaster of a marriage. Outside of that, I'm not sure why you, a total stranger, would make excuses for the WW. In her own words, she clearly describes her alleged former self: "_I turned the hill of disagreements and frustration in our marriage into a mountain and I very selfishly took in the attention and crossed every line there is to cross in a marriage I cheated, lied, was terrible to my husband and I was a terrible mother st the time to my kids and my family and was extremely selfish in my actions_". The OP was no saint either and did absolutely nothing to pursue improving the situation (quite the opposite). 

After reading all of the OP's posts and TAM member responses, I am certainly torn on this situation. I do not post very often here (but frequently read!), but this situation really perplexed me. On one hand, the WW seems to genuinely want to R and keep the marriage going; and yes, it possibly could be due to financial and logistical complacency. On the other hand, how on Earth could she go 18 WHOLE YEARS not noticing how jacked up her BH's emotions toward her were. I mean, it takes me about 5 seconds to realize that my wife is upset with me about something that she is not saying. That speaks volumes. 

However, BH is here, asking for advice, so CLEARLY, he still has feelings for WW, whether or not he can come to grips with that himself. He's just maniacally (and deservedly so) hesitant about risking further damage to himself with potential R. IMHO, after 18 years, it's somewhat pointless to finger-point at either party as they both have done a ton of damage to the marriage, and both clearly require IC (and extremely NUETRAL MC) before a truly rational decision can be made regarding the remainder of their time on this Earth. Another TAM member mentioned that without IC, the OP will simply carry some of the same issues to a new relationship and begin another potential disaster. I AGREE!

OP, I am a Christian and whenever I am at a MAJOR fork in the road, as you currently are, I pray and put it in God's hands. He's NEVER let me down. That should be step one!


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## jsmart (Mar 14, 2015)

Wow, some of the post on here boggle the mind. OP's revenge ONS balances out his wife's 6 month sexual PA? Her callous behavior for 15 years isn't a reason for her husband to be angry? My goodness, just 3 years ago she's making out with one of her male "friends." 

OP never said he expected a spotless house. He did mention all of the hard work he had to do with his wife supposedly going to her parents house to rest and ignore his calls. (Which for a woman who would insist on being able to hang out with male friends after being busted having 6 month PA, doesn't pass the smell test)

Fleck how have you confirmed that there were not other OMs? All those years of hanging out with male friends and she had only one make out session? You buy that all those times that she's coming home late from work saying she went to her parents house to rest?

BTW: I applaud your ability to stick by your kids. All of the effort and sacrifices you made despite your wife resting and hanging out with her male friends has born fruit in raising successful children.


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## Doc Who (Sep 9, 2012)

My goodness, some people need to step away from the projector for a minute. The original poster is NOT your wayward husband. He is NOT. He was first a betrayed husband to a woman who for at 15 years had various affairs and did not give a **** about his or anyone else's recovery. He stuck around for the kids and detached. She even admitted she was ****ty to him without remorse.

Not addressing his pain and crappy coping on his part? HELL YES.

Evil man who deserves to burn in hell? Nope, so just chill.

Bashing the OP because he doesn't tow your line is not useful. Lots of BHs preach "dump the *****" and get pretty insistent, to the point of bashing. That doesn't help either.

The OP has a tough path. He detached for what seems to be 16 years. That is a lot of time to be emotionally separated and for the sole purpose of making sure his wife did not screw over his kids with her crappy choices of affair partners. And now we are telling him to eff off for that choice? Nope. It is not the choice a healthy person should have made, but he did it for his kids.

Reattaching to this woman, no matter how angelic and changed she is now WILL BE DIFFICULT. Give him a break, will you??????


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## Dr. Stupid (Dec 8, 2016)

I don't believe that Fleek needs "a break". He is here, a person who appears to me to be an intelligent man, to put his situation in the arena of debate, with like and unlike minds, where he can make a decision that will impact both his life, and other people's lives. 

I'm sure that he can speak for himself, but I see great value in everyone's opinions here so far, even from those who are possibly "projecting", and he will be more confident in his decisions because of that. He has already proven himself to be a disciplined man, and I think that he can handle a few daggers thrown at him here and there. 

Just to reiterate, it is my understanding that his wife cheated on him and threw their wedding vows in the toilet. She is to blame. Actions have consequences. If she hadn't committed adultery, these events would have never been set into motion. The paths taken from that event have led Fleek to where he is today. He had no say as to the start of the conflict, but he had a substantial amount of control over the direction that it took afterwards. 

I would like to state the *opinion* that Fleek is here, asking for our council, and his wife is elsewhere, asking for advice there. We should not lose sight of that. We should endeavor to make sure that we are addressing Fleek's concerns and helping him as we would want to be helped if we were in his shoes. Sometimes that means saying, _"Brother, you need to look at yourself some as well"_. While his wife's post on the other message board is helpful to a degree, she is not our primary concern.


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## Spicy (Jun 18, 2016)

I have read everything, and opted to think about your situation before replying. 

I don't think you really addressed it, but how has your sexual relationship been in your marriage? Just curious if that was good or not?

You both have been through a lot. A tremendous amount of time has passed, children born, raised and out of college. You have undoubtedly been a great dad, and I envy that you were able to sta in your marriage, somewhere I fell short too early for my kids. 

Yet, now they are grown, and you still are together. One thing that is great about your situation, is that you haven't blurted it out to the whole world. You kept it private, so not everyone around you knows your dirty laundry. That's going to be a nice feature of what I am about to suggest. My idea is this: Perhaps separate, right within your own home. If you need more definition, then one of you move out into a simple, inexpensive studio nearby. Then date. Except, have each other be the first shot as your only dating partner. What I am saying is *date each other*. Exclusively. Start from the beginning. After a small amount of time apart has gone by, start calling each other. Sharing about your day, etc. Eventually ask each other out, and plan some fun dates. Eventually, hold her hand. Go in for a kiss. So on and so forth. See if you can esentallly start your romance over.

No one needs to know you are doing this. It can be a sweet secret between the two of you. View each other only from the new point forward as best as you can. Who knows, you very well may fall in love all over again. If it doesn't work, no harm, no foul. You can hit the point where you both say you tried everything over the years, and you just couldn't make a go of it in the end. The you can divorce on nearly the greatest terms possible, which will be best for your kids and future grandkids.

There is something about the two of you. I think you have a decent chance of falling in love again. She was immature and irresponsible. You reaction was severe for revenge, and you both have paid for it most of your adult lives. Close all those chapters. Set that entire book on the shelf. You both will know what is in that book, but LEAVE IT THERE. Open a fresh book, and write a new love story.

I wish you so much happiness.


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## fleek (Jul 20, 2016)

Dr. Stupid said:


> I don't believe that Fleek needs "a break". He is here, a person who appears to me to be an intelligent man, to put his situation in the arena of debate, with like and unlike minds, where he can make a decision that will impact both his life, and other people's lives.
> 
> I'm sure that he can speak for himself, but I see great value in everyone's opinions here so far, even from those who are possibly "projecting", and he will be more confident in his decisions because of that. He has already proven himself to be a disciplined man, and I think that he can handle a few daggers thrown at him here and there.
> 
> ...


This is exactly what I'm trying to do. I read a couple of other forums and decided to post here. I could have posted at SI and gotten a bunch of hugs, sending strength and such; I don't want or need that. I want info from people that can offer some insight into issues they've worked through, or even been there done that learned this advice. I would like to be pointed to different resources, techniques, or even how to begin stepping towards reconnecting and coping with this in an appropriate way. I appreciate the different perspectives, even those from folks that cheated. I would like to think everybody here isn't out to start some internet argument or dogpile. I would hope we're trying to offer each other support and/or guidance, especially in this sub forum. I've read horrifying things here that have angered and saddened me. I can understand how some aspects of my story would bother some people. I'm not going to get baited into some forum tit for tat exchange. I don't want to hurt anyone or add to anyone's burden. I also I don't know who's posting here. I don't know if they've cheated, been betrayed, or both. I don't know their life experience or what they've been through. I don't know where they're at in this process either. I know from firsthand experience that the heartbreak of infidelity can be a raw, gut-wrenching wound that's almost more than a person can bear. There was a time where I could not have had a rational conversation about this situation. I would have jumped down anyone's throat and verbally thrashed them if they thought what I did (or was doing) was wrong. I have had to do some soul searching and self introspection too. I have a helluva lot more empathy for everybody nowadays. I have my anger under control. Maybe I've just matured. 

This discussion has been helpful, I don't mind getting a few stones flung at me either. I'm not without sin here, believe me, I know that. I'm at a crossroads and I need to figure out which way to go. 

We have done the discovery process of this ordeal. My WW has taken a polygraph from an examiner that administers exams to sex offenders out on parole. The dude was beyond professional and had state of the art equipment. I know the tests are not infallible, but I do think I have the whole story. Or as much as a person is going to get anyway. I've also spoken to the OBS and AP. The AP is the one that disclosed this to me just to spite my wife. I know more than enough about what happened. I've fully disclosed everything I've done too. 

So how does a person start to recover their relationship? Is it a fake it until you make it kinda thing? How do you start to reattach? Can a fulfilling marriage exist after an A?


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## fleek (Jul 20, 2016)

Spicy said:


> I have read everything, and opted to think about your situation before replying.
> 
> I don't think you really addressed it, but how has your sexual relationship been in your marriage? Just curious if that was good or not?
> 
> ...


Thank you for your suggestions. We've discussed doing something similar to this, even to completely divorce and try to start over. We've even discussed how to split stuff up and she's been way more than fair to me in that regard. We do still have a kid at home, she's attending community college in a 2+2 program. She will likely be going away to school this fall. We have some space now, but not enough to do the in house separation. Our kids have no idea about any of this. We could possibly split this fall and try to reconnect like you mention without exposing this completely to everyone. 

Before the A, I thought our sex life was awesome. I think she would agree. It was intimate, connected, varied, frequent, playful, satisfying, and we both initiated - no complaints from me. Post A it changed. Mind movies, disgust, anger, and loss of trust, no vulnerability, and no emotional connection didn't lead to passionate sex. For me anyway. It's really a complicated mess with a minefield full of issues. We do have sex though. We always have.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

IDK. 30+ year relationship; very good; no infidelity; hard work and good kids. So that's me.

But I'm also a quick - and good -judge of character. Friends at work have pointed out that when I've decided someone isn't worth my time (they're unable or unwilling to learn; they're stupid and don't know it; etc.) I write them off and they're dead to me. They laugh about it, but they also find, months later after they've invest time, effort and reputation - that they feel the same and I was right.

I also don't question myself or look back. I do learn from my mistakes - and I freely and quickly make them - but I expect that and don't beat myself up over past decisions.

I'm high IQ and I only say that to also note that I am highly compartmentalized and see similarities where others don't (abstractions) and similarities where others don't (ability to see the details). Think bill Clinton getting a BJ while on the phone with Yassar Arafat.

So I've read much but not all of this and nothing at SI.

My dad was a shrink. He believed you should believe that people are what they say and do and that character rarely changes. He dealt with tough situations with vets. Some sociopaths, etc. Many just trying to cope.

But I learned that I alone control my life and I alone control my emotions and happiness. I will never give someone else that power which is why I eliminate negative people and people of poor character from my life.

I also don't believe in protecting others from consequences, though I probably do it too much.

So I guess if I were this conflicted, and my decision was dependent on COMPLETE TRUST AND FAITH that someone else made a HUGE change of character, that would be too fantastical for me to accept - logically and with my personal safety and happiness.

Maybe I'd separate - let the world know the truth - I'm conflicted and may or may not stay and it's completely dependent on this character change in someone else.

Once that cat was out of the bag, THEN I think I'd see what she was made of. Reputation is then no longer a question. I wouldn't be nasty but be completely honest with limited information - she cheated years ago and it killed our marriage and I'm deciding if it can be saved is all one needs to say.

Then maybe date her and maybe be independent. Stipulate that either of us could see someone but if that happens he open and it's a complete deal breaker - definite divorce. Because that's what you do when you have character.

All other paths have too much baggage for me. If you stay it'll be a "gift" that's pretty sh1tty and is kind of hard to choke down for her. If you leave, maybe you're just being a dbag who has held a grudge like a Scotsman and took 18 years to pay it back. Both have too much embedded anger, resentment, and are crappy parting gifts.

But then you have my background - what do I know about this?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Absurdist (Oct 10, 2014)

fleek said:


> Thank you for your suggestions. We've discussed doing something similar to this, even to completely divorce and try to start over. We've even discussed how to split stuff up and she's been way more than fair to me in that regard. We do still have a kid at home, she's attending community college in a 2+2 program. She will likely be going away to school this fall. We have some space now, but not enough to do the in house separation. Our kids have no idea about any of this. We could possibly split this fall and try to reconnect like you mention without exposing this completely to everyone.
> 
> Before the A, I thought our sex life was awesome. I think she would agree. It was intimate, connected, varied, frequent, playful, satisfying, and we both initiated - no complaints from me. Post A it changed. Mind movies, disgust, anger, and loss of trust, no vulnerability, and no emotional connection didn't lead to passionate sex. For me anyway. It's really a complicated mess with a minefield full of issues. We do have sex though. We always have.



OP – I have never experienced marital infidelity. I wonder if I am even qualified to post here since I have a wonderful wife of over 40 years who has been nothing but a beautiful delight. But…

I have great experience with business infidelity. I am a lawyer. Many years ago a much trusted partner so mismanaged our firm and diverted resources to himself to pay for an extravagant lifestyle, it destroyed our law firm. His actions reduced us from being “well off” people to flirting on the edge of bankruptcy. It took hard work to keep the firm afloat and keep all our employees paid. But more importantly it stole my time from me. We are finite beings with a limited amount of time thus if someone steals our time from us… well… it makes it very difficult, hurtful and painful.
To his credit my old partner lived the rest of his life trying to make it up to us. He lived at almost a poverty level trying to pay us all back. We were smart enough and savvy enough to remake what we lost and we did accept the financial repayments he made. But quite frankly he could never repay us for our time.

Fleek I think this is what probably digs at you the most. Your wife can never repay you for your lost time. Nearly a third of your life has been stolen from you. That’s a deep hurt. She’s trying desperately to repay you but she can never do it.

I finally came to a point in my life where I understood the Christian concept of Grace. Grace is not “religion”. I hate empty religion but I do love Grace. Grace is simply recognizing that a person can’t pay you back no matter what they do or how hard they work but you release them from that debt. When I finally came to this understanding I released my old partner from stealing my time. When I did it seemed that all past hurts seemed to diffuse and I found myself in a much more peaceful place. Please understand that I did not release him from repaying financial obligations but I did forgive him for stealing my time. We still remained great friends after this. I could connect with him on a new level. Sadly for him he died of a massive heart attack six years later. Mainly because he worked himself to death trying to make it up to all of us.

Fleek try to forgive your wife for stealing your time. Try to understand the wonderful concept of Grace and the peace it can bring you. Please understand that this has nothing to do with reconciliation or divorce. You can opt for either alternative but you can do it from a much more peaceful and loving place.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

lifeistooshort said:


> I'm having a hard time understanding how it's ok for you to throw her affair in her face when you cheated too.
> 
> I can understand revenge affairs but the problem is that you lose your moral high ground. If you're going to engage in one it should really be an ok now we're even type thing.
> 
> ...


Agreed. OP and his wife have had one of those long, dysfunctional marriages that should have ended long ago, but they kept it going because of kids and probably because they felt they had no other options. They have behaved abominably towards each other. Now here he is...miserable, hardened and full of regret and bitterness. 

I hate it when I see people get to this state. And still, he is too scared to end this toxic relationship and move on to a happier life, simply because he is afraid to move out of his comfort zone.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

fleek said:


> Thank you for your suggestions. We've discussed doing something similar to this, even to completely divorce and try to start over.


No...

Just NO. Your marriage is toxic. When a marriage gets to a point where there is just too much unresolved bitterness, animosity and resentment it is time to stick a fork in it and go your separate ways. 

It does not mean you cannot continue to be good co-parents. And...if you divorce in the right way, showing respect towards one another that you never showed in the marriage, you might down the road even become friends again. It has been known to happen.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

The biggest tragedy here is that the kids have likely grown up learning some terrible things about what a marriage should be.


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## drifter777 (Nov 25, 2013)

fleek said:


> Before the A, I thought our sex life was awesome. I think she would agree. It was intimate, connected, varied, frequent, playful, satisfying, and we both initiated - no complaints from me. _*Post A it changed. Mind movies, disgust, anger, and loss of trust, no vulnerability, and no emotional connection didn't lead to passionate sex. For me anyway. It's really a complicated mess with a minefield full of issues. *_We do have sex though. We always have.


Why are you still debating all of this with yourself? Is this how you want to live? The only complicated part of this is that you are afraid of changing the comfort level of the life you have grown accustomed to. Some call it "the inertia of life". Change is scary because, well, it means things will be different. Now, do you think you can face the world without your wife and make an new life for yourself? At your age you would be a fool to keep trudging forward on this death-march.


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## fleek (Jul 20, 2016)

I've become well acquainted with the thought of divorce. I don't have any fear about leaving. I am not afraid of being without her at all My ducks are all lined up. There was a time around the A I could not have left without major life consequences for myself. That's not the case today. I think about starting a new life constantly. I'm financially secure, career is great, and I know the world is full of women. She's not the only fish in the sea. The choice was a no-brainer before she began this journey of self-introspection and changed a lot of her faulty thought processes. 

Now the issue is complicated and maybe it shouldn't be.


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## JohnA (Jun 24, 2015)

I read a very similar thread a while ago by a WW. Was that the tread you mentioned? It was on SI.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

fleek said:


> I've become well acquainted with the thought of divorce. I don't have any fear about leaving. I am not afraid of being without her at all My ducks are all lined up. There was a time around the A I could not have left without major life consequences for myself. That's not the case today. I think about starting a new life constantly. I'm financially secure, career is great, and I know the world is full of women. She's not the only fish in the sea. The choice was a no-brainer before she began this journey of self-introspection and changed a lot of her faulty thought processes.
> 
> Now the issue is complicated and maybe it shouldn't be.


But you probably still have some lingering bad habits and hang-ups which can cause you future problems. You will take a lot of baggage from this marriage into the next relationship. Get into I.C. and work on ditching the baggage and developing some personal boundaries when it comes to relationships.


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## Mizzbak (Sep 10, 2016)

Greetings @fleek, I was going to compose a long and especially eloquent post (I have been reading your thread for a while now), but in the interests of getting you an introduction ASAP to the private club...



> Myth #3. Affairs prove that love has gone from the marriage.
> 
> The reasons for affairs are rich and varied. Most of the reasons have to do with the ego state of the person having the affair rather than the person against whom the infidelity is being committed. ...
> 
> ...


When my husband cheated on me, I took this to mean that he did not love me, even could not love me. Surely cheating requires the absence of love? By definition, infidelity is the antonym of the clear, sweet promise we make to those we love... those we cherish. But, I have begin to realise that it is possible to both passionately love and despise someone. To want them with all my heart and to wish (except that this would unmake my children) that I had never met them. I am not comfortable governing my life with something so illogical, frail and changeable as emotions. But it seems that they are the energy source for all relationships. 

Which sucks. (Batteries would be so much better.)

Discuss ... if you'd like.

[Disclaimer - I am an INTP]


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## fleek (Jul 20, 2016)

Thanks mizzbak. 

I get the complicated feelings associated with a long term relationship. Saying it's complicated is a freaking understatement. Being cheated on sure doesn't make a person feel loved though. It's a blatant disregard actually. The casting aside of a partner that's put themselves out there by taking vows, forgoing others, intertwining finances, having children together, building a future, raising those children, leaning on and being leaned upon. It's willingly risking all of that plus not caring about your spouse's sexual health, personal health if the AP is a bunny boiler, your children's emotional well being, your finances or future plans, all while knowingly emotionally crushing your spouse. Giving them a burden to lug around forever - D or R. All for quickie car sex in parking lots and stupid conversations that amount to work gossip or meaningless platitudes. The risk/reward ratio just isn't there. It's betting it all for what seems to be something temporary and stupid. 

The aftermath sucks. It's enduring years of crap afterwards - rages, emotional tirades, thousands of dollars in counselling, lost sleep, loss of security, tons of mental energy applied to "fix" this stupid choice. I am leaning towards D. The amount of people impacted by the dissolution of a long term marriage is shocking. Cheating is just absurdly stupid.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

@fleek

I think what you need now, more than anything, is to be able to accept how you feel about the situation and decide how you are going to go forward. 

It doesn't have to feel good right now for you to be in control of where you are going. It doesn't have to feel good at all for you to work toward a marriage that you feel good in, or even to work toward a life without your wife. 

Look up "Anthony DeMello, Awareness" on youtube. Or buy the ebook called awareness. The audio recordings that the book was written from are on youtube if you don't feel like buying it.

Listen to him, determine how you feel about your situation, accept how you feel about your situation, and then determine what you are going to do.


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## Mizzbak (Sep 10, 2016)

fleek said:


> The amount of people impacted by the dissolution of a long term marriage is shocking.


You speak truth @fleek - as much now as then.


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## Decorum (Sep 7, 2012)

I think you are afraid of yourself.

Your wife has become a better person, and you are still stuck in the darkness of resentment and obsessive self-focused justifications.

This isn't a race, you are not falling behind, its an opportunity. Only you can decide if its worth the effort.

Do not buy into ANY of the idealistic relationship portrayals. If true they are outliers, and probably not a possibility for you under ANY circumstances (i.e. marriage or divorce).

Listen relationships are not about altruistic ideals, unconditional love, or romantic notions.

Relationships are about trading needs, they are performance based, and are preeminently conditional (religious conditioning not-withstanding).

But the character of you partner is the single greatest determiner of success and happiness.

The question on "why" she is doing it from a "her needs (i.e. self-interest)", perspective is less important than the "character, and, maturity" she brings to the table today.

Do not confound the two!

(btw there is nothing wrong with self-interest, it's basic human wiring.)

Be objective, how good can it be (with who she is today) if you match her speed and effort, and the two of you run the race as partners? Ask and resolve that question within yourself, and proceed accordingly.

I wish you well.

Take care.


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