# Avoiding/identifying infidelity



## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Cheaters shouldn't prosper.

This thread is dedicated to helping folks avoid infidelity and current or potential unfaithful spouses. TAM is a gold mine of the information age when it comes to discussing these issues, so far I have compiled a list from my experience as well as other people's experience and advice that members here have contributed for a long time. There is no guarantees but I have noticed many stories on this forum follows similar patterns.

I don't want this list to be about 'how to have a happy relationship or marriage', there's plenty of other articles and threads for that. This list is more dedicated to *those who believe they have a happy marriage, who thought "will never happen to me"*, I find it sickening when people like that suffer infidelity and something has to be done to lessen the occurences of that. Hence this list; some 'safeguards' in avoiding or identifying infidelity.

Feel free to discuss this list, add or argue below:

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1) Trust your instincts before anyone or anything else
Your instincts are there to pick up abnormalies, which can be sudden occurences or mismatches in behavioural patterns. It doesn't always mean cheating/lying, but it does mean something is up. Investigate, calmly, and if you do find something, pretend you didn't find it, until you figured it out.

2) Trust actions and consistency, not words
Reassurances with words are useless, trust only actions and consistences because in the end that is the most difficult to lie in. When dealing with a remorseful spouse, trust their actions that prove their remorse, not their words.

3) Be wary with weak partners
Weak people simply do not have the strength to stand by their principles even when challenged, when faced with temptation or peer pressure or societal pressure they simply fold and succumb to them. Personally I don't even bother having a relationship with them, but if you must, as they comprise a sizable chunk of the human population, be wary.

4) Don't let red flags slide, but don't always act on it until you feel you have reason to.
Many folks on this forum have unfortunately learnt this lesson too late. If you have picked up a red flag, don't fall into the trap of denial. Investigate but don't always act on it until you have solid proof because it could be something else entirely, or even nothing (rare).

5) Meet your partner's friends and loved ones
How people treat others can be a sure-tell sign of how they will treat you in the long-term, also be wary if they seem unable to commit in the long-term. It could mean they just couldn't find the right people, or it could mean they aren't right themselves.

6) Be committed to your partner's happiness but make sure your spouse contributes as much as you
If your relationship is unbalanced and one loves the other more it's a risky situation, have higher standards of love. Just because you may be so much nicer to your spouse it does not guarantee that they will return it.

7) Enforce boundaries
Relationships come with it sacrifices, and that means also sacrifices to one's freedom. If they are unwillingly to make those sacrifices, why trust them to be serious about a committed relationship?

8) Have options and be ready to walk in the worst case scenario
Perhaps controversial, but many troubled relationships continue because those in it believe that there are no other options. That is false.

9) Never ever, forgive infidelity or you will endorse it
Also controversial, by forgiving infidelity you will encourage your partner, and others - to repeat it in the future. Make sure your spouse suffers the consequences of their actions.

10) Be aware of when you are in a 'fog'
People and emotions can put you in a fog, whether you are comfortable, deeply in love, in denial, etc. Try to take time off from time to time to regain situational awareness, examine any red flags that have bothered you and do not fall into the trap of denial.

11) Be wary of the need for outside validation
If your partner has insecurities and needs validation outside of your relationship it's a red flag in my experience, be wary of it. Doesn't mean they will cheat, but they are more vulnerable to it.

12) Be wary of someone who lies, even about small things.
This one is new based on discussion on this thread, the point is that if they can lie about small things they can lie about big things, which is very true. People may have different standards about this, I know I do as well, but it's worth being wary about this, and is a red flag worth considering.

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There's likely alot more that I have missed...


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

> Make sure your spouse suffers the consequences of their actions.


I believe this is impossible, if not illegal.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

2ntnuf said:


> I believe this is impossible, if not illegal.


Divorce is a consequence, losing everything is also a consequence, suffering a loss of their reputation is a consequence. Making those suffer the consequences of their actions does not have be through illegal means.

I would have thought you would understand what I meant 2ntnuf, as I'm certain that you do not endorse unfaithful spouses simply getting a slap on their wrist.


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## Rick Blaine (Mar 27, 2017)

Not a bad list, but it leans a little too far from reconciliation for a traditional marriage (TM), and I fall in the TM camp. By that I mean the traditional vows that are exchanged should be honored, such as "For better or worse, in sickness and health, till death do us part." No spouse is perfect, and that is why those vows are put in place. We are called to forgive and the reason for that is we are able to preserve our most important relationships, which is good for us and for the others in our close circle. If both parties come to the table of reconciliation in good faith, forgiveness is possible. Here is how I view reconciliation in general:

1) A mistake is made, and the spouse confesses the transgression to the other spouse.
2) The spouse expresses remorse for the transgression.
3) The spouse atones for the transgression by offering the other spouse complete transparency, honoring any boundaries that the other spouse needs to feel safe and loved, and taking action to rebuild an emotional and physical connection.
4) The spouse vows to not make the same mistake again.

These are the same steps involved in the Church's sacrament of Reconciliation: Examination of conscience, penitential prayer, confession, penance, and a promise to try and not make the same mistake again. 

When these steps are taken there can be healing. But if any of the steps are left out, there is no healing. 

Those here who have been burned by infidelity (I have!) and have seen the wayward playbook run its course over and over and over can get jaded, causing us to lose sight of the ideals of marriage. That's sad to me. I firmly believe in establishing boundaries, and I don't recommend anyone stay in a marriage where there is an established, unabated pattern physical abuse, mental abuse, or serial infidelity. But I definitely believe in second chances, and I believe the people can get better, evolve, and grow. If we don't give them that chance then we are not honoring our vows.


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## FarAwayFuture (Apr 28, 2018)

Rick Blaine said:


> Not a bad list, but it leans a little too far from reconciliation for a traditional marriage (TM), and I fall in the TM camp. By that I mean the traditional vows that are exchanged should be honored, such as "For better or worse, in sickness and health, till death do us part." No spouse is perfect, and that is why those vows are put in place. We are called to forgive and the reason for that is we are able to preserve our most important relationships, which is good for us and for the others in our close circle. If both parties come to the table of reconciliation in good faith, forgiveness is possible. Here is how I view reconciliation in general:
> 
> 1) A mistake is made, and the spouse confesses the transgression to the other spouse.
> 2) The spouse expresses remorse for the transgression.
> ...



I really like your response, except for the word mistake. It should be switched with something like...a bad decision, wrong choice, because it is just that....a choice, not a mistake. 

My wife used the word mistake for her affair. I could not concur with her.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

I don't agree that we shouldn't forgive cheating, but I want to say that forgiving never means that we must stay with a cheater. They are two different things. 
I agree that good strong boundaries for both spouses are important. 

Also choose a spouse who has good strong moral values, honesty and integrity. 
If they have cheated before on a partner, they may well do it again. 
Don't be with a person who is always flirting and wanting attention from the opposite sex. 

Don't be with someone who lies, even about small things. If they can lie about small things they can lie about big things.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

I agree with pretty much everything except #9. In that case, I'm with Diana.

As far as "making them pay"...I'm all for natural consequences. But some of the more extreme things I read from time to time, seems to me they are allowing someone else's bad character change their own. My character choices shouldn't be dependent on someone else's behavior. I consider that weak.


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## TJW (Mar 20, 2012)

Diana7 said:


> Don't be with a person who is always flirting and wanting attention from the opposite sex.


This is not only a "red flag". This is a gigantic, rapidly-flashing, 25000-volt neon sign.

Those who are not in complete rejection of their lusts are not good candidates for marriage.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

TJW said:


> Those who are not in complete rejection of their lusts


What does that mean, what does that look like?


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

RandomDude said:


> Hence this list; some 'safeguards' in *avoiding* or identifying infidelity.


Get lucky.

Which covers how to avoid infidelity.

While ever human beings as a species are able to lie and do so convincingly, the only way to avoid infidelity is be lucky to avoid it.


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## Spoons027 (Jun 19, 2017)

*Be wary of the red flags!*

There seems to be a common element in many cases here where there are many red flags spotted but decidedly ignored in favor of giving the benefit of the doubt (love can really make us blind sometimes).

Not saying to just hightail it out of there when you notice that odd thing off (unless they say or do something that pretty much points to them being an untrustworthy person to make a life with), but if there’s a red flag in the context of their personality or how they interact with people, their close ones, or you outside vs in private, then maybe at least consider if you really want to pursue a relationship with that person. 

Those red flags are the first hint.


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## [email protected] (Dec 23, 2017)

The almighty mentioned forgiveness several times, but He never said you have to be stupid about it.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Rick Blaine said:


> Not a bad list, but it leans a little too far from reconciliation for a traditional marriage (TM), and I fall in the TM camp. By that I mean the traditional vows that are exchanged should be honored, such as "For better or worse, in sickness and health, till death do us part." No spouse is perfect, and that is why those vows are put in place. We are called to forgive and the reason for that is we are able to preserve our most important relationships, which is good for us and for the others in our close circle. If both parties come to the table of reconciliation in good faith, forgiveness is possible. Here is how I view reconciliation in general:
> 
> 1) A mistake is made, and the spouse confesses the transgression to the other spouse.
> 2) The spouse expresses remorse for the transgression.
> ...


True, and I can respect such devotion. Hence I noted #9 is very controversial. It's not for everyone. For myself, trust needs to be 100%, even if it's 99.99%, it's not enough. Hence one breach of trust and I would no longer consider my partner 'lifelong', but that's just me.



Diana7 said:


> I don't agree that we shouldn't forgive cheating, but I want to say that forgiving never means that we must stay with a cheater. They are two different things.
> I agree that good strong boundaries for both spouses are important.
> 
> Also choose a spouse who has good strong moral values, honesty and integrity.
> ...


Lies ARE red flag yes, but it's a tricky one hence I didn't include it in the list. The problem is, almost everyone has lied. Those that say they never lie, well I doubt the truthfulness of that, even if it's a little one or white lie. Not to say people like that don't exist, but I never met one, nor would I trust one even if I met one lol

My ex-wife lied all the time via omission, but it wasn't over anything important. I still trusted her 100% - she never lied over anything important. Still, it's good to be wary about this. 

Actually... going to include it...



personofinterest said:


> I agree with pretty much everything except #9. In that case, I'm with Diana.
> 
> As far as "making them pay"...I'm all for natural consequences. But some of the more extreme things I read from time to time, seems to me they are allowing someone else's bad character change their own. My character choices shouldn't be dependent on someone else's behavior. I consider that weak.


Morality is relative. For me, I believe not making them suffer the consequences is weak and lazy, if no one exacts justice, it will naturally encourage more cheating in society. Ultimately my moral code is dedicated to the future of humanity as a whole. If no consequences are suffered by cheaters, which seems to be becoming the norm these days - as it's already socially acceptable, then it's just going to continue and get worse.

There is no God or karma in my belief, if there was, would be much better! However, it seems the natural consequences of infidelity have always been man-made.

However I don't endorse wild fiery revenge, causing collateral damage, irresponsible, stupid - as in, ending up losing the court case due to being emotionally compromised, etc etc. I believe revenge is best served cold, when it's exact, and when you win - the best way being legal.



Personal said:


> Get lucky.
> Which covers how to avoid infidelity.
> While ever human beings as a species are able to lie and do so convincingly, the only way to avoid infidelity is be lucky to avoid it.


I believe there is an element of luck, but it's not all luck


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Spoons027 said:


> *Be wary of the red flags!*
> 
> There seems to be a common element in many cases here where there are many red flags spotted but decidedly ignored in favor of giving the benefit of the doubt (love can really make us blind sometimes).
> 
> ...


Hmmm, I wonder if I should include this as #13, but it's a tad similar to #4, what you think?


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

Rick Blaine said:


> 1) A mistake is made, and the spouse confesses the transgression to the other spouse.
> 2) The spouse expresses remorse for the transgression.
> 3) The spouse atones for the transgression by offering the other spouse complete transparency, honoring any boundaries that the other spouse needs to feel safe and loved, and taking action to rebuild an emotional and physical connection.
> 4) The spouse vows to not make the same mistake again.


 Cheaters fake this crap ALL the time. And lets face it - they're highly skilled liars so playing the part of a 'remorseful' spouse is a cake-walk for most of them. Like it or not, that's the truth. I think the overwhelming majority of 'remorseful' cheaters are faking it just enough to avoid divorce court, is all. And lots of them continue their cheating after they're caught, but see this as a learning experience so they know what NOT to do in the future to avoid getting caught again. 

Bottom line: the cheater went outside the marriage, they had their fun for weeks or months or years, they got caught and now they have to play the part of the remorseful spouse. And they'll say and do whatever it is the BS wants if they want to stay married and keep their assets & kids. So they'll say and do whatever it is they HAVE to in order to stay home.

You see this *all the time*. BS's being fooled by these cheaters with their fake show of 'remorse' and thinking their cheater was 'broken' but he was _magically_ cured through therapy and now they're happily reconciling...until you see the *same* BS a couple years later back on the message board again because their lying cheater got caught again.

For many, it's just an act to appease their BS and they haven't changed at all.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> I believe this is impossible, if not illegal.


*In the due course of time, I feel that God will be the great Equalizer, not necessarily to condemn them to Hell, but as the loving Heavenly Father, to lovingly chastise His children, and to call them out for their prurient earthly actions of infidelity, more especially in the presence of the ones who were duly hurt or offended! 

I'm all too fearful that there may never be an earthly solution other than for prayer and personal forgiveness!*


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

arbitrator said:


> *In the due course of time, I feel that God will be the great Equalizer, not necessarily to condemn them to Hell, but as the loving Heavenly Father, to lovingly chastise His children, and to call them out for their prurient earthly actions of infidelity, more especially in the presence of the ones who were duly hurt or offended!
> 
> I'm all too fearful that there may never be an earthly solution other than for prayer and personal forgiveness!*


Thank you. What brought me to the thread was the idea that there should be no reward for the unfaithful. I found that to be untrue in this world. I've considered it at length and realized a loving God loves all His children, even those who are unfaithful. If I was an all loving person, I'd love them for their individuality, but hate the sin. I would know of it, and require cleansing of the stains of sin. 

However, I would be forgiving, if true forgiveness was asked through real remorse. I would not require them to be punished, but simply want a change of heart... true change. I would know when that occurs. 

I could not help those who have been harmed by the sin, since it would influence them to believe in me, and proof would not allow for free will choice to follow or not. I could only stop or encourage others considering doing something. I could not stop humans from doing something, but could use other forces to prevent things from happening, while allowing others. 

In the end, I find it deeply saddening. However, there is no justice in this world. True justice is only from God. His reasons are beyond our understanding, in my opinion. I must accept His will for me, since without Him, there is truly nothing, but evil, torture of the most horrendous nature, and complete and utter injustice beyond what this earthly existence can possible muster. 

Some will say this is fear. It is. It is fear of God's true power. His abilities and His glory. It is also a desire to be less sinful than I could be. It isn't easy, and I fail often. You and I know I will be forgiven, just as anyone might be. 

Therefore, do I have a right to take away anyone's forgiveness, even one or many who have harmed me? I do not. I can only hope that I can live as well as possible within His rules and be forgiven for the rest. Each of us will be assessed on our own merits, as you say. I cannot hope that anyone's soul will fail the test. I'm afraid that would be in direct contrast to the will of God. 

I can only hope I pass. And yes, I have very great difficulty in achieving those lofty goals. If I have no goals, I am still judged. I might as well join, because I will never beat Him. ("If you can't beat them, join them".) However, I don't want to join the other side.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

arbitrator said:


> *In the due course of time, I feel that God will be the great Equalizer, not necessarily to condemn them to Hell, but as the loving Heavenly Father, to lovingly chastise His children, and to call them out for their prurient earthly actions of infidelity, more especially in the presence of the ones who were duly hurt or offended!
> 
> I'm all too fearful that there may never be an earthly solution other than for prayer and personal forgiveness!*


I once heard a very helpful teaching on forgiveness. They said, 'forgiving isn't letting people off the hook, its taking them off your hook and putting them onto Gods hook'. If we don't forgive, and hold onto anger and bitterness, then its as if He cant deal with them. If we let go, He is free to do what is needed to bring them to see what they have done and hopefully be repentant and sorry. 
Another VERY powerful thing is to pray blessing on them. Yep sounds so hard, but it really does open the door for Him to work powerfully. It also helps us to let go and be free.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> Cheaters fake this crap ALL the time. And lets face it - they're highly skilled liars so playing the part of a 'remorseful' spouse is a cake-walk for most of them. Like it or not, that's the truth. I think the overwhelming majority of 'remorseful' cheaters are faking it just enough to avoid divorce court, is all. And lots of them continue their cheating after they're caught, but see this as a learning experience so they know what NOT to do in the future to avoid getting caught again.
> 
> Bottom line: the cheater went outside the marriage, they had their fun for weeks or months or years, they got caught and now they have to play the part of the remorseful spouse. And they'll say and do whatever it is the BS wants if they want to stay married and keep their assets & kids. So they'll say and do whatever it is they HAVE to in order to stay home.
> 
> ...


Pretty much why I also mentioned #9, which is controversial. 

Having to give up one's freedom and privacy for complete transparency to rebuild trust in a relationship is a consequence that a reconciling couple must impose on their wayward spouse.

Sadly, many reconciling couples do not do this, and without suffering any consequences the cheater simply continues.

True, they may still just fake it for a few years and go back to cheating. But it has helped some couples. Personally I wouldn't continue a relationship once the trust is less than 100%, but that's just me.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Diana7 said:


> I once heard a very helpful teaching on forgiveness. They said, 'forgiving isn't letting people off the hook, its taking them off your hook and putting them onto Gods hook'. If we don't forgive, and hold onto anger and bitterness, then its as if He cant deal with them. If we let go, He is free to do what is needed to bring them to see what they have done and hopefully be repentant and sorry.
> *Another VERY powerful thing is to pray blessing on them. Yep sounds so hard, but it really does open the door for Him to work powerfully. It also helps us to let go and be free*.


Agree.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

RandomDude said:


> Pretty much why I also mentioned #9, which is controversial.
> 
> *Having to give up one's freedom and privacy for complete transparency to rebuild trust in a relationship is a consequence that a reconciling couple must impose on their wayward spouse.
> 
> ...


Any WS who will do this willingly, is either a much better liar than expected, or is in the marriage for something other than love, since love does not contain this definition. We would not treat someone we love in this way, and if the WS accepts this treatment, they are not well. Why would a BS want to be married to someone who is not well? I ask that question because it is like starting over; like being daters, again, who are learning about each other. This would not be a healthy beginning. No one here, that I know of, would suggest a relationship start in such a manner. No woman or man, in their right mind, would accept treatment such as this from a fiancée or on a date.


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## TJW (Mar 20, 2012)

Personal said:


> What does that mean, what does that look like?


I heard a wise analogy once which said "...it's like being in a room full of flies. You cannot prevent them from landing on you. But you have a choice....you can allow them to stay on you, or you can shoo them away...."


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## Spoons027 (Jun 19, 2017)

RandomDude said:


> Hmmm, I wonder if I should include this as #13, but it's a tad similar to #4, what you think?


Oh, yeah. It does seem #4 summarizes this. And it also seems to include #5 as well. I guess maybe what I said could be applied to meeting a new person in general, romantic or platonic.

I have nothing else to add.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

A lot of people dont understand forgiveness. I forgave the man who molested me. I hope to never see him again, however. And if he was arrested, I'd have no problem being a witness (statute of limitations ran out on me long ago)


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> Thank you. What brought me to the thread was the idea that there should be no reward for the unfaithful. I found that to be untrue in this world. I've considered it at length and realized a loving God loves all His children, even those who are unfaithful. If I was an all loving person, I'd love them for their individuality, but hate the sin. I would know of it, and require cleansing of the stains of sin.
> 
> However, I would be forgiving, if true forgiveness was asked through real remorse. I would not require them to be punished, but simply want a change of heart... true change. I would know when that occurs.
> 
> ...


*In my limited wisdom, I simply cannot fathom that the Heavenly Father would ever subject his loving creations to the fires of Hell for just repeated acts of adultery alone.

The Plan of Salvation is what saves us and without it, all but innocent and unborn children and the afflicted are destined to be condemned without it!

As a loving father counsels his child and has his child confess and apologize to those that their actions aggrieved, the Heavenly Father will do the same with us!

I cannot day that the selfish infidel actions of both my wives didn't hurt me ~ they did. But I do not want either to be subjected to eternal damnation for it. 

It is our business as the humanly aggrieved "to forgive," but the more Godly attribute is "to forgive and forget,"which the Father duly exercises toward us!*


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

arbitrator said:


> *In my limited wisdom, I simply cannot fathom that the Heavenly Father would ever subject his loving creations to the fires of Hell for just repeated acts of adultery alone.
> 
> The Plan of Salvation is what saves us and without it, all but innocent and unborn children and the afflicted are destined to be condemned without it!
> 
> ...


Read the 7th commandment. Now, we can argue it's true meaning, but all it takes is breaking one commandment without truly remorseful petition of forgiveness. 

Yes, though we can refuse that plan.

I know you don't truly wish them any harm, Arb. I neve thought you did. However, others might easily think we are condoning revenge, of what nature I do not know. I am not condoning revenge, but justice under pertinent laws, if any, and a change in those which are unjust. 

God never forgets. He does not hold our sins against us, as if, we have never committed them. I know it says He will remember them no more, but I think that means he will never hold them against us, once forgiven, nor will He bring them up or use them against us. I'm sure He can do as He wishes, I just don't think that passage was interpreted correctly, though I do allow for my own misinterpretations.


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## Spoons027 (Jun 19, 2017)

personofinterest said:


> A lot of people dont understand forgiveness. I forgave the man who molested me. I hope to never see him again, however. And if he was arrested, I'd have no problem being a witness (statute of limitations ran out on me long ago)


Oh, yes. In many cases I've seen, forgiveness = having to stay and work it out with the offender. Except, that doesn't really work if the offender is unremorseful, and you entrap yourself even deeper.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> Read the 7th commandment. Now, we can argue it's true meaning, but all it takes is breaking one commandment without truly remorseful petition of forgiveness.
> 
> Yes, though we can refuse that plan.
> 
> ...


*Per Isaiah 43:25, God definitely says that he will "forgive and forget!"

To the extent that one would perhaps backslide, God would always remember their prior acts just to counsel them and hopefully never to condemn!*


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

2ntnuf said:


> Any WS who will do this willingly, is either a much better liar than expected, or is in the marriage for something other than love, since love does not contain this definition. We would not treat someone we love in this way, and if the WS accepts this treatment, they are not well. Why would a BS want to be married to someone who is not well? I ask that question because it is like starting over; like being daters, again, who are learning about each other. This would not be a healthy beginning. No one here, that I know of, would suggest a relationship start in such a manner. No woman or man, in their right mind, would accept treatment such as this from a fiancée or on a date.


It IS starting over, the alternative - and my recommendation for cheaters - is to leave them immediately, since even after taking many years to rebuild the trust and heal, trust is never going to be 100%

You love and forgive them for cheating, they WILL take advantage of it as you can see in all these threads in CWI. Remorse must be proven, not just claimed. Words mean sh-t.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

arbitrator said:


> *Per Isaiah 43:25, God definitely says that he will "forgive and forget!"
> 
> To the extent that one would perhaps backslide, God would always remember their prior acts just to counsel them and hopefully never to condemn!*


There is contradiction between the first and second sentences, which is why I believe He does not mean forget, but only will not hold those sins forgiven, against them at judgment.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

RandomDude said:


> It IS starting over, the alternative - and my recommendation for cheaters - is to leave them immediately, since even after taking many years to rebuild the trust and heal, trust is never going to be 100%
> 
> You love and forgive them for cheating, they WILL take advantage of it as you can see in all these threads in CWI. Remorse must be proven, not just claimed. Words mean sh-t.


You can forgive while being sensible enough not to stay with them.


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## CantBelieveThis (Feb 25, 2014)

The best consequence or punishment is to cut them out of your life immediately and go on live a better life. 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Another side to this is to look for weakness in your own marriage. While not all cheaters cheat because of some weakness in their marriage, many do. If you find weakness, work with your spouse to try to fix it.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

2ntnuf said:


> Read the 7th commandment. Now, we can argue it's true meaning, but all it takes is breaking one commandment without truly remorseful petition of forgiveness.
> 
> Yes, though we can refuse that plan.
> 
> ...


Actually this is not the gospel. If we are talking about the Christian God there IS a payment for sin, it's just that Jesus took it on the cross. So the dept is payed at that point and forgotten. It seems to reward the worst sinner the most actually, the worse you are the bigger value you get out of it. This fits in the story of the prodigal son, if you know that one. Still if it is payed wouldn't it be unfair to never forget it? Plus there is a new heaven and earth so how is that consistent with God never forgets. I know there are other scriptures specifically about it being forgotten but I don't feel like looking them up. I usually reserve that for phony religious people. 

Yeah Christianity be really rough if you are into the whole justice thing. If you really think about it, and I have. The response to me would follow, we all are deserving of hell so we all should be grateful. But at least for my mind that is still a hard thing when we are talking about people who caused others great suffering, many times just because they wanted to. 

This is very hard for me as I would want abusers to suffer for what they did but that is not how it works. 

When I think about this stuff, and believe me I think about it, it's hard not to go crazy. I mostly think how can there be justice in the world when there is no quid pro quo for the wrongs that people do? How can God be just if this is the case? Anyway maybe our judgment will be living an experiencing the pain and suffering we caused through their own eyes. That would be a start. There is supposed to be an accounting. I Do think there is something to be said for knowing the people who do this stuff don't really live the life they could once have. Maybe they will realize that one day.

There has been a lot of **** that has happened in my life that really set a course for things where I might have had a very different life. Great losses done by people I don't even know. People who might repent and never face the full consequences of their actions. Things that you never get over you just learn to live with. It has been hard to come terms with the fact that God doesn't protect you from stuff like that. You are on your own down here. I believe that is because we all have free will, and I wouldn't change this because I like my own free will. Still I think the cost is there is also no justice in this world, hopefully there will be in the next. 

Right now I am sure people are reading this and thinking that's because everything you are talking about is a fairy tale. I get that in many ways that makes sense. Life may be one big random set of interactions and a place where people can do the most horrible of **** and there is no consequence at all. I really don't like to talk my personal beliefs on this board, but the lesson to me is that is why it takes belief. I personally see just as many reasons to believe that God doesn't give a **** to believe he does. It is a choice I make, not because it's easy or even because it gives me peace all the time. I choose to have faith that I don't understand it. Not sure if that makes me more faithful or less. Maybe it makes me crazy.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

I think my stance on reconciliation is pretty well known on here. I don't believe in it in almost all cases. I go so far as to say I think at times it is immoral and bad for society if the person you are R with is continuing to abuse you or has abused you and a truly disgusting and demeaning way. I think this is why so many of those who try have such a hard time with it because they haven't come to terms with what they are doing is demeaning. They may not even understand that but in their gut they know. 

I always equate it to physical abuse. It is very easy and natural for us in society to see how wrong it is for someone who has been terribly physically abused in their marriage to stay with the spouse who hits them. When it happens no one looks at that and says, what a success story or what a happy ending. We must work as a society to see infidelity as the same kind of abuse. As it demeans a society when a women is abused by her husband and goes back to him, so it is the same if the abuse is not of a physical nature.

I think we should think of it pretty much the same way in the sense, if a husband has a history of never hitting his wife and then one night he gets drunk and loses his mind I may not say she should leave him, but he need to really do tons of work to earn her back. It's not happy or joyful it's just grave and sad. If however he puts her in the hospital then **** him his privilege of being her husband should be over. Seems to me emotional abuse should work the same way. Just because the bruises are not visible doesn't make them any less damaging. 

When there is great abuse in the form of infidelity in a marriage and the marriage continues this is not a happy thing, in fact it diminishes marriage in general. I won't celebrate that. Those who counsel for this in my mind are at best misguided. The counsel should be given to help the BS get out of abuse again just like shelters are given to people who are in abusive relationships. We need to empower those who are in abusive marriages to help them take the steps to end them, not send them back to the people who emotionally put them in the hospital.


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## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

RandomDude said:


> Pretty much why I also mentioned #9, which is controversial.
> 
> Having to give up one's freedom and privacy for complete transparency to rebuild trust in a relationship is a consequence that a reconciling couple must impose on their wayward spouse.
> 
> ...


I do not believe in 100% trust. I believe more in trust, but verify.

Trusting someone 100% means, to me, that you cannot imagine they could or would betray that trust - not even a little. It means they will never lie about anything. My opinion is that 100% trust is a big mistake (more fantasy than reality). It means you are not even open to accepting a betrayal of trust is even possible, thus you rationalize away any red flags that should have alerted you to a problem in the relationship.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Rick Blaine said:


> Not a bad list, but it leans a little too far from reconciliation for a traditional marriage (TM), and I fall in the TM camp. By that I mean the traditional vows that are exchanged should be honored, such as "For better or worse, in sickness and health, till death do us part." No spouse is perfect, and that is why those vows are put in place. We are called to forgive and the reason for that is we are able to preserve our most important relationships, which is good for us and for the others in our close circle. If both parties come to the table of reconciliation in good faith, forgiveness is possible. Here is how I view reconciliation in general:
> 
> 1) A mistake is made, and the spouse confesses the transgression to the other spouse.
> 2) The spouse expresses remorse for the transgression.
> ...


I am sorry, I think this is completely ridiculous and just plain silly. Not trying to be rude but this is just weak, for weak people that don't have the self respect to say, GTFO...


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

RandomDude said:


> Pretty much why I also mentioned #9, which is controversial.
> 
> Having to give up one's freedom and privacy for complete transparency to rebuild trust in a relationship is a consequence that a reconciling couple must impose on their wayward spouse.
> 
> ...


Actually, a lot of them DO insist on the 'transparency' rule. But cheaters know how to get *around* this with burner phones, chatting and texting apps, new secret email accounts and secret social media accounts the BS doesn't know about, and all kinds of other sneaky ways to do what they do best - cheat.

I roll my eyes up to the ceiling every time a BS makes the claim that their cheater is really and truly *100% transparent* with them and they haven't been in touch with their affair partner since D-Day. While that may be true for a handful of BS's, I don't believe for a New York minute that it's true for the overwhelming majority of cheaters. No way, no how. 

About the ONLY way to *guarantee* that your cheater is now being "100% loyal" to you is to have them surgically attached to your hip where you can watch them 24/7. :rofl:

Otherwise, all bets are off.


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## Luminous (Jan 14, 2018)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> Actually, a lot of them DO insist on the 'transparency' rule. But cheaters know how to get *around* this with burner phones, chatting and texting apps, new secret email accounts and secret social media accounts the BS doesn't know about, and all kinds of other sneaky ways to do what they do best - cheat.
> 
> I roll my eyes up to the ceiling every time a BS makes the claim that their cheater is really and truly *100% transparent* with them and they haven't been in touch with their affair partner since D-Day. While that may be true for a handful of BS's, I don't believe for a New York minute that it's true for the overwhelming majority of cheaters. No way, no how.
> 
> ...


QFT

It is like understanding a predator. In order to be successful in understanding, you need to THINK/FEEL like a predator.

Same goes for cheaters etc. You need to think a step ahead of them, put yourself in their shoes, imagine yourself doing what they do.

Some people aren't prepared to do that as it is either too confronting for their situation, or too confronting for their own personality.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Rick Blaine said:


> Not a bad list, but it leans a little too far from reconciliation for a traditional marriage (TM), and I fall in the TM camp. By that I mean the traditional vows that are exchanged should be honored, such as "For better or worse, in sickness and health, till death do us part." No spouse is perfect, and that is why those vows are put in place. We are called to forgive and the reason for that is we are able to preserve our most important relationships, which is good for us and for the others in our close circle. If both parties come to the table of reconciliation in good faith, forgiveness is possible. Here is how I view reconciliation in general:
> 
> 1) A mistake is made, and the spouse confesses the transgression to the other spouse.
> 2) The spouse expresses remorse for the transgression.
> ...


I find it funny that despite your nod to traditional marriage, you omit the "forsaking all others" part to arrive at your approach.

I cannot fathom how you can possibly rationalise that not accepting someone who has not honoured their marital vows of fidelity, is not honouring ones marital vows.

Seriously if I were wanting to have sexual affairs with others despite promising marital fidelity. I would find it far easier to feel free to cheat with abandon if married to someone who thinks as you do.

"I have to tell you that I accidentally tripped over and repeatedly fell into her vagina on Tuesdays, Thursdays, Fridays and Sundays. Don't worry though it was just a mistake and I am awfully sorry that it happened, which is why I am telling you. So don't forget as an honourable woman, you need to stay married to me in order to keep your promise of for better or worse. :rofl::rofl::rofl:


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

One thing I have learned..........or rather reminded myself repeatedly is that no matter how good the relationship or you think it is,
one must remain always vigilant and cognizant of whats going on in your marriage/relationship.
your radar must be tuned right and always turned on. Not just for for your mate, but for yourself also.

I've been in relationships where cheating occurred and the pain is near unbearable.
it taught me a forever lesson. never forget. never take for granted. never think it can't happen to you.

now 5+ years into my new marriage, and as perfect as it could be, I still keep my ears and eyes open.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Luminous said:


> QFT
> 
> It is like understanding a predator. In order to be successful in understanding, you need to THINK/FEEL like a predator.
> 
> ...


This is SO important. So many people just don't get who they are, it's why I recommend reading posts on sites celebrating infidelity and there are some. This is a much more accurate picture of who these people are then any reconcile site. People tend to operate out of the opinion that everyone thinks like they do, but if you are like me and believe there are cheaters and non-cheaters then it's really dangerous to think that because you as a non-cheater have no context at all to understand who you are married to. They don't.

I am convinced most of them are emotionally retarded in some way. They are broken in the empathy part of their brain. They have just learned to hide it, but those sites let you see who they really are. People really DO delight in doing evil. If you are not careful this is probably who you are trying to R with. 

After reading these sites I have to say the a very large majority of WS are looser and not worth the effort. There is SO MUCH better out there. Don't waste your life.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

One thing that I see is very consistent is how about half of all post on R sites are the types of people who are quick to R and want desperately to rug sweep. This makes me think that people who give away all their power and agency in their marriage and therefor their life, who believe in the marriage at all cost are are the most vulnerable to get cheated on. It's SO constant. Look on any site that talks about infidelity and you will find lots of people whose spouses cheated on then who is totally terrified to confront them and suffers in silence. They post because they are miserable but they are also more resistant to the idea of moving on then the prospect of living a miserable life. 

It's an unfortunate truth that without a threat of consequences many people will misbehave. Children do this and adults who have not matured do it. If your spouse knows your love and loyalty is unconditional some (not all) will use that as and excuse to take advantage of it. It takes maturity to fight against your nature and still do right even when it's easy or fun to do wrong. Not to mention the idea that the cheating spouse chooses them precisely because they know they will be able to get away with cheating. Like a parasite. 

An example would be if a spouse allows the dynamic to get to the point where their partner is like their child many people will just allow this dynamic to continue and even abuse it. If a husband never picks up after himself but lets his wife do it, without some sort of consequences he is not going to change, and it will probably get worse for instance. The same holds true for infidelity it's just more extreme. Many people need fear to do the right thing. The fear of losing everything is a good motivator for some folks to prevent them from cheating. This is why it's a mistake to take that off the table like so many of these marriage at all cost folks do.

Besides unconditional love is really never a healthy thing. The place were it's the most realistic is the love a parent has for a child. It's no wonder that when this kind of love is presented in a marriage the dynamic of the marriage usually changes to a parent child relationship. Many times the WS acts like a child with the expectation that no matter what their actions are they will never loose the love they once had. You even see this in the post by the most repentant WS, it's like they don't even get the possibility that there actions may kill their partners love for them. 

I get the sense that many WS don't even understand that their spouses love for them is always diminished in some way. They are childlike in their thinking. They act and they think like their spouses love for them is unlimited and never changing. In all my reading I don't believe I have ever read a post from a WS where they lament the fact that their spouse doesn't love them the way they once did. It's always about losing their companionship or future. You never read, I am worried my spouse is going to stop being in love with me because of my actions, yet this should be the primary concern. 

I personally want my wife to hold me accountable and I will do no less for her. This is really necessary for a good marriage.

Bottom line if you want to help yourself avoid infidelity avoid loving your spouse unconditionally. Hold them accountable for how they treat you.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

uhtred said:


> Another side to this is to look for weakness in your own marriage. While not all cheaters cheat because of some weakness in their marriage, many do. If you find weakness, work with your spouse to try to fix it.


I considered including that, however I believe that is more involved with seeking a happy marriage rather than avoiding infidelity. 

There is no excuse for infidelity, "bad marriage" is definitely not an excuse either. There's a thing called divorce.



TDSC60 said:


> I do not believe in 100% trust. I believe more in trust, but verify.
> 
> Trusting someone 100% means, to me, that you cannot imagine they could or would betray that trust - not even a little. It means they will never lie about anything. My opinion is that 100% trust is a big mistake (more fantasy than reality). It means you are not even open to accepting a betrayal of trust is even possible, thus you rationalize away any red flags that should have alerted you to a problem in the relationship.


Hmmm for me I trust my instincts above all else. And due to that, I trust my ex-wife completely when it came to loyalty.

She would have had to be an extremely consistent liar with her actions over many years despite giving me full transparency and triggering no red flags and passing several tests born from my own paranoia from time to time. Chances of all that however was too slim for me to distrust her. We divorced for other reasons.



She'sStillGotIt said:


> Actually, a lot of them DO insist on the 'transparency' rule. But cheaters know how to get *around* this with burner phones, chatting and texting apps, new secret email accounts and secret social media accounts the BS doesn't know about, and all kinds of other sneaky ways to do what they do best - cheat.
> 
> I roll my eyes up to the ceiling every time a BS makes the claim that their cheater is really and truly *100% transparent* with them and they haven't been in touch with their affair partner since D-Day. While that may be true for a handful of BS's, I don't believe for a New York minute that it's true for the overwhelming majority of cheaters. No way, no how.
> 
> ...


Heh no guarantees sure... But I'll still put my money on it with the right person.



jorgegene said:


> One thing I have learned..........or rather reminded myself repeatedly is that no matter how good the relationship or you think it is,
> one must remain always vigilant and cognizant of whats going on in your marriage/relationship.
> your radar must be tuned right and always turned on. Not just for for your mate, but for yourself also.
> 
> ...


Wise strategy.



sokillme said:


> This is SO important. So many people just don't get who they are, it's why I recommend reading posts on sites celebrating infidelity and there are some. This is a much more accurate picture of who these people are then any reconcile site. People tend to operate out of the opinion that everyone thinks like they do, but if you are like me and believe there are cheaters and non-cheaters then it's really dangerous to think that because you as a non-cheater have no context at all to understand who you are married to. They don't.
> 
> I am convinced most of them are emotionally retarded in some way. They are broken in the empathy part of their brain. They have just learned to hide it, but those sites let you see who they really are. People really DO delight in doing evil. If you are not careful this is probably who you are trying to R with.
> 
> After reading these sites I have to say the a very large majority of WS are looser and not worth the effort. There is SO MUCH better out there. Don't waste your life.


Yes, I also believe once a partner has cheated, the marriage isn't worth saving but that's my opinion too. 

Otherwise for those that wish to reconcile, at least to keep an eye out and not trust or forgive blindly.

EDIT: Stupid phone!


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## BruceBanner (May 6, 2018)

Did something happen to you recently? @RandomDude


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## Rick Blaine (Mar 27, 2017)

BluesPower said:


> I am sorry, I think this is completely ridiculous and just plain silly. Not trying to be rude but this is just weak, for weak people that don't have the self respect to say, GTFO...


I don't advocate weakness. Never. And I loath infidelity and cheaters. I also squirm when I read accounts here of men who are weak, indecisive, and do the pick me dance or beg. I've advocated here that once the affair is discovered the betrayed spouse should kick the other spouse out immediately if the wayward spouse isn't willing to end the end the affair and work on the marriage. In that case divorce should be filed right away. That was my response when I discovered my wife's infidelity. I wasted no time kicking her out and filing for divorce. 

But if a marriage can be saved, the effort should be made. It takes a lot of strength to forgive, and there are a lot of couples who have successfully recovered from infidelity. That's a fact, not an opinion. If you read the post carefully--reading is fundamental, Blue--you would note that the process of reconciliation requires steps that ensure the safety and dignity of the betrayed spouse. But if the wayward spouse comes back hat in hand willing to rebuild the marriage and atone for his or her infidelity, and the betrayed spouse is willing to forgive, the marriage can be restored. 

Blue, you're not trying to be rude? Right. I'd be happy to discuss this with you in person tough guy. You'd be on your back looking up at the ceiling by the end of the discussion.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

Rick Blaine said:


> It takes a lot of strength to forgive, and there are a lot of couples who have successfully recovered from infidelity.


I'm with Blue on this one. I don't see it as having 'strength' at ALL choosing to swallow one's pride and dignity in order to stay with someone who happily **** all over them and disrespected them day after day after day after day after day after day ad nauseum. 

I also don't feel that the BS should make every effort to 'save' the marriage if their cheater has ended their affair and is all contrite, hat in hand, wanting to fix things. What a crock of horse-**** THAT is. That means that a cheater can go out and have their fun - for years if they're lucky enough to get a long-term gig like that - and they can lie to their BS about it every single day. They can disrespect their BS to the nth degree, stain their homes and cars and beds and favorite restaurants etc. by bringing their affair partners into these places, they can trick and manipulate and gas-light their BS *every single day* in order to keep their dirty little secret a secret.

But once the cheater is caught and *fun-time* is over, as long as they claim to be _OH so sorry_ and say they want to fix things, the BS should make an effort to save the marriage. Seriously???

We'll just agree to disagree on this one. The BS owes their cheater *squat*. Nothing. Zero. Zilch. Nada. And if they choose NOT to reconcile, that's just the way the cookie crumbles for the cheater who had all that fun until they got caught. Cry me a river.

There's currently a thread on another site asking why BS's *really* chose to stay with their cheaters after D-Day.

The overwhelming majority of answers have to do with money (losing assets and/or can't afford to live on their own), not wanting to only see their kids 50% of the time, or fear of the unknown/divorcing and being on their own. Some of the posters in that thread say they regret having stayed but it was the only choice they had at the time. That's hardly a Disney movie ending.

But, these posters are considered to be "successfully reconciled" although it *really* sounds more like they simply chose to swallow their pride and stay married in order to keep the status quo. That's hardly considered a _success_, but since they didn't divorce, they're considered successfully reconciled. I'm equally sure that A LOT of these types of supposed 'reconciliations' contribute toward the number of 'successfully reconciled' couples you say are a fact.




> Blue, you're not trying to be rude? Right. I'd be happy to discuss this with you in person tough guy. You'd be on your back looking up at the ceiling by the end of the discussion.


What are you, 12 years old?

I can't believe I just wasted all that time replying and hadn't seen this childish statement *first*.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Rick Blaine said:


> I don't advocate weakness. Never. And I loath infidelity and cheaters. I also squirm when I read accounts here of men who are weak, indecisive, and do the pick me dance or beg. I've advocated here that once the affair is discovered the betrayed spouse should kick the other spouse out immediately if the wayward spouse isn't willing to end the end the affair and work on the marriage. In that case divorce should be filed right away. That was my response when I discovered my wife's infidelity. I wasted no time kicking her out and filing for divorce.
> 
> But if a marriage can be saved, the effort should be made. It takes a lot of strength to forgive, and there are a lot of couples who have successfully recovered from infidelity. That's a fact, not an opinion. If you read the post carefully--reading is fundamental, Blue--you would note that the process of reconciliation requires steps that ensure the safety and dignity of the betrayed spouse. But if the wayward spouse comes back hat in hand willing to rebuild the marriage and atone for his or her infidelity, and the betrayed spouse is willing to forgive, the marriage can be restored.
> 
> Blue, you're not trying to be rude? Right. I'd be happy to discuss this with you in person tough guy. You'd be on your back looking up at the ceiling by the end of the discussion.


I just saw this Rick, I guess you are 12 years old. 

I disagree with what you wrote, you disagree with what I wrote, that is ok. Why all the hostility, because you stayed? 

I don't know your story, but really men, is all the 12 YO stuff really necessary???


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

To answer OP's question, to avoid infidelity, I think you need to find someone with a strong moral character and then be vigilant not let the marriage get stale. I think men in particular get married, get comfortable and forget about dating their wife, their wife in turn friend-zones them, and then starts looking elsewhere for dopamine hits.

As far as consequences, I'm not sure there is any...

Reconciliation there is no consequences. They may fear losing their spouse (or their paramour in many cases) for a bit, but once they are in reconciliation, what have they really lost? You can't throw insults at them and also be in reconciliation. You can't treat them like street trash and also be in reconciliation. That's why I'd advise someone strongly against jumping into reconciliation too quick. Don't waste time scheduling marriage counseling. Straight up kick them out for a couple months, serve them with divorce papers, the whole works and take the time to decide if this is what you really want.

On the other hand, divorce isn't much of a consequence if you are the breadwinner, the cheater gets half your stuff and welfare payments from you for the forseeable future. High price to get rid of a loathsome creature. They'd be losing you, but its probably more about the guilt of destroying their life than you in reality. They obvious had little respect or love for you if they were banging someone else. They may lose 50% custody, but lets face it if they were out banging their paramour while you were at home watching the children, its nothing new to them.

Its really whatever you can accept and whatever you can live with. Divorce or Reconciliation is a personal choice. I just lean toward divorce personally, because I need to respect and trust my spouse to love them. I can't do that with a cheater.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

BruceBanner said:


> Did something happen to you recently? @RandomDude


Nope, either than reading so many of these threads where the BS seemed to have no idea what was coming. I wanted to reply to them about how to avoid infidelity in the future as many identified many red flags in their marriage but didn't act on them, however it would have been quite insensitive of me to mention thus on the threads where they are healing from devastation.

So in the end, decided to open up this thread. I haven't been betrayed fully since I was a child - the betrayal was from my own mother, and the times I was betrayed by colleagues in my youth, I saw it coming and planned accordingly, hence I was never devastated and flipped the tables on them when they tried. Never been betrayed by lovers so far, but I've always been picky, as it's never who I trust it's what I trust them to do.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> But once the cheater is caught and *fun-time* is over, as long as they claim to be _OH so sorry_ and say they want to fix things, the BS should make an effort to save the marriage. Seriously???
> 
> We'll just agree to disagree on this one. The BS owes their cheater *squat*. Nothing. Zero. Zilch. Nada. And if they choose NOT to reconcile, that's just the way the cookie crumbles for the cheater who had all that fun until they got caught. Cry me a river.
> 
> ...


Agreed, the responsibility for any reconciliation if possible lies solely with the wayward spouse, not the betrayed one. Trust is earned, so is forgiveness. Anything else is just words and bullsh-t.

Also why personally I would divorce no matter how remorseful the wayward spouse is, as even after reconciliation the trust can never be fully repaired, it will always be a shadow of what it was.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Shestillgotit knocked it out of the park on this one. Most of what she is referring to is those on that other site that moan for decades on end to a message board but claim they are successfully reconciled. Or sitting in a stew of their own self pity. If they had divorced their cheater they would have opened a new chapter in their life that perhaps wasnt complete dog squeeze.They made a choice by not making a choice.


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## Rick Blaine (Mar 27, 2017)

BluesPower said:


> I just saw this Rick, I guess you are 12 years old.
> 
> I disagree with what you wrote, you disagree with what I wrote, that is ok. Why all the hostility, because you stayed?
> 
> I don't know your story, but really men, is all the 12 YO stuff really necessary???


I'm not 12 years old, but your post incited me. I wish I had not posted it because, yes, it was an immature response. But at the same time your responses here are sometimes just as immature. When you insult someone's manhood don't expect an 'ataboy.

I actually like most of your thoughts here. We mostly see things the same way. But I don't take kindly to being called a ***** because that's not who I am.

By the way, I did not stay. You read that wrong or I left something out. As soon as my wife cheated on me I threw her out of the house since she would not end it. I ended contact. I took her back when her fantasy came crumbling down and she asked for another chance. My family and marriage was worth giving a second chance. But when she did it again I threw her out again. Never a pick me dance. Never begging or crying. And I don't communicate with her except by infrequent email regarding the kids

@aine


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

RandomDude said:


> 9) Never ever, forgive infidelity or you will endorse it
> Also controversial, by forgiving infidelity you will encourage your partner, and others - to repeat it in the future. Make sure your spouse suffers the consequences of their actions.


I agree with the message but think that 'forgive' may not be the right verbiage. 

I think a better way to word it is to not ignore it , rugsweep it, deny it etc etc Recognize it for what it is and take definitive action. Allow the natural consequences of cheating come to pass. Do not wallow in denial or rug sweeping and all the WS to have their cake and eat it too and allow them to carry on scot free as if nothing happened. 

Falling out of love. Distrust. Anger. Loss of respect. No longer wanting to be intimate. No longer wanting to remain married. No longer wanting to be around someone who cheated on you are all potential natural outcomes of infidelity. Do not deny or rug sweep them. Allow the WS to experience the consequences of their actions.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> If we don't forgive, and hold onto anger and bitterness, then its as if *He cant deal with them.* If we let go, He is free to do what is needed to bring them to see what they have done and hopefully be repentant and sorry.
> Another VERY powerful thing is to pray blessing on them. Yep sounds so hard, but it really does open the door for Him to work powerfully. It also helps us to let go and be free.


 @Diana7 ,
I'm only 2 months late on this, but this statement puzzles me. Do you believe that your actions somehow control what God can and cannot do? I'm reasonably sure that your, or any mortal's, actions do not hinder God from doing as he sees fit. 






arbitrator said:


> *Per Isaiah 43:25, God definitely says that he will "forgive and forget!"
> 
> To the extent that one would perhaps backslide, God would always remember their prior acts just to counsel them and hopefully never to condemn!*


 @arbitrator ,
Serious question. Anyone feel free to chip in.
If God ALWAYS forgives and forgets, why is there a hell? Who would be sent there if all are forgiven? Non-believers? If so why wouldn't they be forgiven for not believing?


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Rubix Cubed said:


> @arbitrator ,
> Serious question. Anyone feel free to chip in.
> If God ALWAYS forgives and forgets, why is there a hell? Who would be sent there if all are forgiven? Non-believers? If so why wouldn't they be forgiven for not believing?


*With God being a God of love for all of His humanly creations, the only two unforgivable Christian sins are (1) Willful Unbelief and (2) Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

If belief is professed, eternal salvation is gained. For those who cannot profess like children and the unborn or afflicted, God grants to them eternal grace! 

Without meeting that criteria, that's what Hell is for!

In any event, forgiveness has to be asked for!*


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

As is said many many times

The "gift" of reconciliation (and it is a gift) must come from the BS. It is their right to choose to walk away from the marriage or stay. The WS has no rights to demand anything. Forgiveness is something the BS chooses to give (hopefully esp for themselves). Yes making the decision will include many other extraneous factors such as kids, assets, etc. I also believe the BS has the right to walk away even after many months/years of reconciliation if the WS has not pulled out all the stops and continues to be a self centered prick or prickess. 
They owe the WS nothing at all.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Rick Blaine said:


> But if a marriage can be saved, the effort should be made.


No offense but I don't agree with this at all. My question to this statement is why? Really why? Because there was a ceremony and vows once? Because of history? You don't even say it's a choice and you don't even say some marriages you say any marriage which makes you a marriage at all cost proponent. I wonder if you feel the same way with other forms of abuse. Would you say the same thing about the guy who puts his wife in the hospital in a coma? Why is it good for society when people can abuse others and they turn around and continue to dedicate their entire lives to those people? Is it a religious thing?



Rick Blaine said:


> It takes a lot of strength to forgive, and there are a lot of couples who have successfully recovered from infidelity. That's a fact, not an opinion.


And there are a lot more who have wasted years trying or didn't try at all and went on to have wonderful lives. That is also not an opinion but a fact. 

I believe marriage at any cost diminishes marriage in general. Vows that can be broken with no consequence and those who advocate for that make them meaningless. It's why less people get married now a days. This kind of thinking does much more harm then good.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Shestillgotit knocked it out of the park on this one. Most of what she is referring to is those on that other site that moan for decades on end to a message board but claim they are successfully reconciled. Or sitting in a stew of their own self pity. If they had divorced their cheater they would have opened a new chapter in their life that perhaps wasnt complete dog squeeze.They made a choice by not making a choice.


You are correct.

Reading the posts of supposedly _reconciled_ members is a particularly painful exercise. It's literally like watching people *desperately* trying to eat a lemon and still smile while they're doing it. They're all just trying SO hard to convince each other that they made the right decision to stay with their cheaters - even when one of them finds a strange number in hubby's phone or the GPS shows him at the local massage parlor instead of at his Bible study group. Even THEN, the lemon eaters all rally around, desperately trying to convince her that she still made the right choice in staying and that there's surely an explanation for this latest discovery, and they encourage her to continue frantically spackling the cracks that keep appearing in their **** show of a marriage. God, it's pathetic.


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## azimuth (May 15, 2018)

Rubix Cubed said:


> @Diana7 ,
> I'm only 2 months late on this, but this statement puzzles me. Do you believe that your actions somehow control what God can and cannot do? I'm reasonably sure that your, or any mortal's, actions do not hinder God from doing as he sees fit.
> 
> 
> ...




I'm not Diana, but I think she means that if the person is still holding onto the anger and bitterness, then that person is not allowing God to work in their life. The person is handling it on their own and giving in to their own emotions and deciding their actions, instead of putting their burden on God and following Him. God has a plan and opens doors for you, but if you're still hanging on to the bad person who cheated on you, hanging on to the anger, etc, then that is keeping you from living God's plan, which is that he has a better person and a better life for you waiting if you let Him guide you.

The statement "it's like He can't deal with them" I took to mean that the person is acting as if God can't deal with them, not that God can't deal with them based on their actions - a colloquialism that translated poorly in written text.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Rick Blaine said:


> By the way, I did not stay. You read that wrong or I left something out. As soon as my wife cheated on me I threw her out of the house since she would not end it. I ended contact. I took her back when her fantasy came crumbling down and she asked for another chance. My family and marriage was worth giving a second chance. But *when she did it again* I threw her out again. Never a pick me dance. Never begging or crying. And I don't communicate with her except by infrequent email regarding the kids


But don't you see the futility of what you are suggesting - based on your own experience?

Sure, to each their own, if you want to try it, go for it, but the odds are stacked against reconciliation. You can continue to waste time trying to get back to a spouse you can never trust again, or simply walk and find someone new. 

The latter gives you a new solid foundation to build a relationship on, not to mention on a wider picture such actions encourages more fidelity when the consequences of betrayal are much more severe. 
The former however, you will be rebuilding an old house on cracked foundations, and encouraging more of infidelity on a wider picture as you will be just another example of how cheaters get away with it.



azimuth said:


> I'm not Diana, but I think she means that if the person is still holding onto the anger and bitterness, then that person is not allowing God to work in their life. The person is handling it on their own and giving in to their own emotions and deciding their actions, instead of putting their burden on God and following Him. God has a plan and opens doors for you, but if you're still hanging on to the bad person who cheated on you, hanging on to the anger, etc, then that is keeping you from living God's plan, which is that he has a better person and a better life for you waiting if you let Him guide you.
> 
> The statement "it's like He can't deal with them" I took to mean that the person is acting as if God can't deal with them, not that God can't deal with them based on their actions - a colloquialism that translated poorly in written text.


Aside from religious stuff...

I consider that indifference more than forgiveness. Cut them out completely from your lives and let them suffer the consequences of their actions. It's for the greater good as well when cheating becomes less socially acceptable and more scorned instead of being celebrated.

Anger does not have to rule you, and you do not have to forgive to let go of your anger. Force them to suffer the consequences out of principle.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

RandomDude said:


> But don't you see the futility of what you are suggesting - based on your own experience?
> 
> Sure, to each their own, if you want to try it, go for it, but the odds are stacked against reconciliation. You can continue to waste time trying to get back to a spouse you can never trust again, or simply walk and find someone new.
> 
> ...


*

I differ in that I feel that forgiveness is a necessary virtue! 

But never ever let yourself forget, to keep yourself from reenduring ones mistakes of the past!*


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## Dusk (Oct 29, 2018)

I could forgive my husband for cheating but I couldn’t stay married. Also, he wouldn’t ever forgive himself and you can’t stay married f that’s how you feel.

Some things can’t be fixed. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Rick Blaine (Mar 27, 2017)

sokillme said:


> No offense but I don't agree with this at all. My question to this statement is why? Really why? Because there was a ceremony and vows once? Because of history? You don't even say it's a choice and you don't even say some marriages you say any marriage which makes you a marriage at all cost proponent. I wonder if you feel the same way with other forms of abuse. Would you say the same thing about the guy who puts his wife in the hospital in a coma? Why is it good for society when people can abuse others and they turn around and continue to dedicate their entire lives to those people? Is it a religious thing?
> 
> And there are a lot more who have wasted years trying or didn't try at all and went on to have wonderful lives. That is also not an opinion but a fact.
> 
> I believe marriage at any cost diminishes marriage in general. Vows that can be broken with no consequence and those who advocate for that make them meaningless. It's why less people get married now a days. This kind of thinking does much more harm then good.


I am not a marriage at all costs proponent. Nothing I wrote indicates that. You are cherry picking part of what I wrote to cover your narrow view of infidelity. 

I don't think a spouse should tolerate infidelity. When a spouse is cheating, the other spouse should act fast and divorce if the other spouse doesn't end the affair. That is a natural consequence of infidelity, and that is what I put into practice in the case of my FWW. Quick, decisive action without begging or crying. Stick to the boundaries that were established. 

But there are times where reconciliation is possible, where the wayward spouse is remorseful and atones for the sin. Maybe you couldn't live with the fact that your spouse cheated once. So leave. That's your prerogative. But others forgive and go on to have happy marriages. It's for them to decide. 

In many of the cases that we see here the betrayed spouses act weakly and enable their wayward spouses's bad behavior. The betrayed spouse lingers and doesn't take decisive action. His or her wayward spouse doesn't face a consequence and becomes even more entitled. Those are the spouses who believe in marriage at all cost, and I don't support that. When I see that happen with people who post on TAM, I do what I can to discourage their weak response to the situation.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Rick Blaine said:


> I am not a marriage at all costs proponent. Nothing I wrote indicates that. You are cherry picking part of what I wrote to cover your narrow view of infidelity.
> 
> I don't think a spouse should tolerate infidelity. When a spouse is cheating, the other spouse should act fast and divorce if the other spouse doesn't end the affair. That is a natural consequence of infidelity, and that is what I put into practice in the case of my FWW. Quick, decisive action without begging or crying. Stick to the boundaries that were established.
> 
> ...


In your opinion is there every an affair that is so egregious the even if the BS wants to reconciliation is not a healthy choice? I personally thing lots of BS make decisions to reconcile out of brokenness and not necessarily because it is a healthy choice for them, the people around them, even society in general.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

I definitely think there are cases in which reconciliation is a very UNhealthy choice.

However, as I am not the Great Infidelity God, I dont get to dictate what others do. I can have an opinion, but I dont get to dictate, and they dont have to listen.

As far as the idea that Joe's choice to reconcile harms society st large....that's a bit dramatic.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

aine said:


> As is said many many times
> 
> The "gift" of reconciliation (and it is a gift) must come from the BS. It is their right to choose to walk away from the marriage or stay. The WS has no rights to demand anything. Forgiveness is something the BS chooses to give (hopefully esp for themselves). Yes making the decision will include many other extraneous factors such as kids, assets, etc. I also believe the BS has the right to walk away even after many months/years of reconciliation if the WS has not pulled out all the stops and continues to be a self centered prick or prickess.
> They owe the WS nothing at all.


I don't think its a gift. I mean if infidelity was really a deal breaker, then that person should divorce. If you consider it a gift, its just going to be a long, bitter road of resentment. BS's stay because they want to stay, not because they are giving their wayward some gift. They might be staying for other reasons than their spouse's winning personality, but they are making a choice for what is best for themselves. And often times its not best, and they figure it out years later. But then you have to deal with the sunk cost of not walking away sooner.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

personofinterest said:


> I definitely think there are cases in which reconciliation is a very UNhealthy choice.
> 
> However, as I am not the Great Infidelity God, I dont get to dictate what others do. I can have an opinion, but I dont get to dictate, and they dont have to listen.
> 
> As far as the idea that Joe's choice to reconcile harms society st large....that's a bit dramatic.


Long term persistent bad marriage especially ones with abuse in them like infidelity is why less and less people get married. Sham marriages are the worst advertising for marriages possible.


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## Rick Blaine (Mar 27, 2017)

sokillme said:


> In your opinion is there every an affair that is so egregious the even if the BS wants to reconciliation is not a healthy choice?


Yes. For example, reconciliation with a serial cheater is not a healthy choice in my view.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Rick Blaine said:


> Yes. For example, reconciliation with a serial cheater is not a healthy choice in my view.


How about affairs that have gone on for years a good deal of the marriage, or when there is lots of affair partners?


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## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

aine said:


> As is said many many times
> 
> I also believe the BS has the right to walk away even after many months/years of reconciliation *if the WS has not pulled out all the stops...*


I agree 100%... but I'll add, the BS has the right to walk away regardless of the remorse and actions of the WS. The "contract" of marriage is null and void after infidelity. The idea of some _time statute _ in regards to R is ridiculous. If the WS doesn't understand this... their bad.


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

God/Jesus are perfect. The rest of us have sinned and fall short of the glory...


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