# strong women



## SockPuppet (May 16, 2011)

There seems to be a rise in strong, independant women. More women are leaving their husbands. Id think its due to economic stability for women, and the ability to rely on a pension as opposed to a husband. Amongst other reasons.

Alpha women.

Are they filling the gap made by all the beta males?

Do Alpha females go for beta oriented males? Do they do this because a successful marriage/ home/ place to raise children needs a good mix of beta and alpha traits? Biology?

I know we're all different, and everyone has their own personal taste, but maybe Alpha women are predisposition to go for Beta Males?


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

I think a lot of it has to do with the way boys are raised these days.

Maybe people want them to behave like girls. Not only at home, but in the classroom. As a teacher, I've done a lot of reading on how boys learn and "normal" behaviour for boys so I try very hard to let them be boys.

Girls are also raised now to be independent and self-sufficient, which is great. However, many mothers forget to also teach them the dynamics of a good marriage with a real man...especially if they, themselves, have had bad relationships.

TV doesn't help either. Men/Fathers are usually portrayed as idiots and the women/moms are bitter nags who withhold sex and make their men beg for it and somehow that's funny.


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## RoseRed (Aug 27, 2011)

I'm not one for assigning people based upon the letters of the greek alphabet nor are we as a species should be equated to a pack of wolves...

My personality traits are what they are... I am a strong, independant, extroverted, fiesty, self-disciplined, goal-oriented minded woman that can toe to toe with anyone with confidence, yet with the grace, and eloquence that my gender and my education has given me. I was raised in a very humble, yet realistic view on life and death (a ranch in the middle of nowhere), with very traditional 50's style parents. 

YET... I have deep within my heart a overwhelming sense of compassion, care, love, forgiving, nuturing soul. I hold my H and chidren to the highest regard and priority.

I find it interesting, purely on sociological poit of view, the reaction of men in the workplace to a woman such as myself... not only to my physicality but my intellect and mannerisms as well. I am a tall woman, fit, with an athletic build, I prefer to wear heels at work that puts me over 6' tall. I dress very professionally and appropiately for the office, but in no way do I have a masculine wardrobe. I am very professional, yet warm in speech, cordial, knowledgable in my field, with an economy of words. I have no fear in addressing a work related issue even in dispute, but my voice is always calm, yet firm and assertive. 

I find most men respond in 1 of 3 manners. 

1) they are scared silly and back away..
2) they are get highly threatened and are outwardly hostile
3) they sit back and watch me smirking, just to hit on my later

It is rare that I discover a man in the workforce that can interact with me purely on a professional intellectual work level.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Gitdoun said:


> first of all alpha female is a contradiction in nature. Like a jogger smoking a cigarette. It's a contradiction. As proof these so called alpha females are committing suicide in their 40's and 50's. Google it up your self. Middle age women suicide is on the rise. I think it's because feminazism has a failed as a theory and we are witnessing it's results.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If you don't think the alpha female exists, then you haven't been around animals much. Dogs in particular have the alpha female. So do lions, wolves, chimpanzees and just about every other living creature. 

As for women committing suicide more, not true at all. 

NIMH · Suicide in the U.S.: Statistics and Prevention

Feminism failed? According to whom? The same person who thinks alpha females don't exist and suicide rates are higher in women?


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## FirstYearDown (Sep 15, 2011)

I am a strong, independent woman. I was raised to be docile, look after men and "know my place."  I rebelled against that nonsense at 21.

Most men don't know how to handle a woman who doesn't take crap. Before I met my husband, men would tell me that I "stood up for myself too much." and that I had a "bad temper." They were intimidated.

I have become slightly less aggressive with marriage. I love the way my husband is the perfect alpha/beta mix. He sets limits with my sometimes bratty behavior.:smthumbup:


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## tzsetzse (Sep 18, 2011)

RoseRed said:


> I'm not one for assigning people based upon the letters of the greek alphabet nor are we as a species should be equated to a pack of wolves...
> 
> My personality traits are what they are... I am a strong, independant, extroverted, fiesty, self-disciplined, goal-oriented minded woman that can toe to toe with anyone with confidence, yet with the grace, and eloquence that my gender and my education has given me. I was raised in a very humble, yet realistic view on life and death (a ranch in the middle of nowhere), with very traditional 50's style parents.
> 
> ...


I worked with professional women for 30+ years in the retail jewelry industry. I came to honor and respect those women that balanced husbands/boyfriends, children, households AND the job. They dressed well, articulated well and walked the walk. 
I have always had nothing but the utmost admiration for "strong" women...those that know who they are and what they are about. Threatened? ATTRACTED!


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## RoseRed (Aug 27, 2011)

tzsetzse said:


> I worked with professional women for 30+ years in the retail jewelry industry. I came to honor and respect those women that balanced husbands/boyfriends, children, households AND the job. They dressed well, articulated well and walked the walk.
> I have always had nothing but the utmost admiration for "strong" women...those that know who they are and what they are about. Threatened? ATTRACTED!


It is heartening to hear your view. Sadly, through my experience, you are more the exception than the rule. It is hopeful that one day this will be reversed.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

It's a little amusing that modern American women believe being loud, demanding, and maybe wearing stylish clothing makes them stronger than the generations of seriously strong women before them. Get up at 4:00am every day, work like a mule, educate and doctor your eight kids, maintain family finances, manage the household and do it all without drugs, government safety blankets, pensions, supermarkets, etc. Both my grandmothers were truly strong women and neither felt the need to compete with or to emulate a man. Few men could have kept up with them.


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## RoseRed (Aug 27, 2011)

unbelievable said:


> It's a little amusing that modern American women believe being loud, demanding, and maybe wearing stylish clothing makes them stronger than the generations of seriously strong women before them. Get up at 4:00am every day, work like a mule, educate and doctor your eight kids, maintain family finances, manage the household and do it all without drugs, government safety blankets, pensions, supermarkets, etc. Both my grandmothers were truly strong women and neither felt the need to compete with or to emulate a man. Few men could have kept up with them.


Oh..I whole heartly agree with you.. the generations of my foremothers were very formdible women in their own right! I do not discount the amazing contribution that they gave to the family and fully admire all the work they put into the lives of those she loved. I grew up in much the same manner.. the vegetables were in the garden, the milk and beef was munching grass in the field, the eggs in the coop, etc etc... It took every member of the family to survive. 

However times have changed... there ARE supermarkets, pensions, etc... as man was taken off the field to work within the city (metaphorically speaking)..the dynamic changed... and a number of years later... so have women... 
If you wish to refer to the old days there was no grief between man and woman on a self-sustaining farm... men and women both tended the fields and gardens, both knew that they had to clean and keep the household maintained. The women cared for the house for the health and well being of the family, the men had to clean the stables, outbuildings, chicken coop for the health of the animals. Both raised children equally ... the wife with nuturing and book education, the husband with life skills and trades. Both preserved food for the winter, men smoking the fish and meats, women canning the fruits and vegetables. Both contributed skills to garnering the cash they needed for things that could not be made by themselves. There was no "my selling the beef cattle is worth more than the knitting and jam you sold at the county fair" .. that would have been ludacris! If anything, my father would praise my mother for creating a beautiful feast to honor God and the family... that he was a lucky man to have a full belly at the end of the day! 

But then the dynamic changed. The men were taken from the field, the notion of the breadwinner evolved, and the imbalance was created.... that the reality of the modern world created the challenge for both genders to find this balance. In no way shape or form do I have any interest in being superior to anyone. I am not loud, bombastic, nor overly aggressive, however I will stand my ground... just like my foremothers. However in this day and age...some women tend to harp on this superiority/inferiority dilemma too much and the knee-jerk reaction is that they have to act like a man. I do not agree with this, as I wish to be honored, respected for my contribution to be regarded equally no matter man or woman. I am not in competition with any male worker. Our brain as a species has the exact same learning and working potential no matter the gender.

As man and woman were equals upon the farm and fields with the manual labour and toils of making an life... now it is the world of technology and intellect... I am in the workforce with the same purpose as my foremothers... 
however my genetic makeup remains the same... I do still maintain my small vegetable garden, I still have fruits to can and make jams, and yes I cook a fine meal most everynight... the care of my famiy and H is still utmost in my heart....this will never change. The advent of supermarkets, public schools and the like, has changed the dynamics of life..changed the roles of men and women, however it should not change the purpose... of making a life. However way you and your family work towards making a life together!


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## FirstYearDown (Sep 15, 2011)

unbelievable said:


> It's a little amusing that modern American women believe being loud, demanding, and maybe wearing stylish clothing makes them stronger than the generations of seriously strong women before them. Get up at 4:00am every day, work like a mule, educate and doctor your eight kids, maintain family finances, manage the household and do it all without drugs, government safety blankets, pensions, supermarkets, etc. Both my grandmothers were truly strong women and neither felt the need to compete with or to emulate a man. Few men could have kept up with them.


It's funny that you don't realize, that women of older generations often put up with EVERYTHING from their men. The husbands could beat them, cheat on them and refuse to help with the housework or the children.....these older women would likely accept it. After all, many of them did not have the access to employment or education that the men had, which put them in a vulnerable and dependent position.

So if a woman competes with a man, she is trying to be one? :scratchhead: I don't get it. If a man and I are interviewing for the same position, you better believe that I'm going to compete for that job! My femininity is still intact.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Things are much better now. More women and children are on poverty roles. Juvenile delinquency is through the roof. More women than ever are diagnosed with depression. The economic disparity between the sexes is about the same as it was in 1950. I haven't researched it, but I suspect women report less satisfaction with marriage now than in 1950.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

<sarcasm> Oh no! It's an ALPHA FEMALE! AHHHHHHHHHH!

Men! Quick! Go buy some books on how to be a man and blame your mothers for raising you like chicks! Quick! Quick! </sarcasm>


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## FirstYearDown (Sep 15, 2011)

I have already reported him, TRBE.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

1st question - what is an Alpha female ... Top 10.5 Alpha Female Characteristics


Urban Dictionary: Alpha Female





SockPuppet said:


> Do Alpha females go for beta oriented males? Do they do this because a successful marriage/ home/ place to raise children needs a good mix of beta and alpha traits? Biology?
> 
> I know we're all different, and everyone has their own personal taste, but maybe Alpha women are predisposition to go for Beta Males?


I can only speak for myself & my own marraige. Given those traits listed on that link, I would be considered ALPHA in many respects (most especially in assertiveness & communication delivery)......but NOT all as I am not a career woman but a simple stay at Home Mom- by choice & desire. I have no want to be a working independent woman* in no need of a man - furthermore I LOVE the more emotionally dependent male, which = **more beta*. I would, however, have no time or want for a man I needed to baby or Mother. That would grow old almost immediately & I would bull doze such a man. 

Also my ambitions were never to climb any social ladders of success or build my own empire. Though the things I DID want in life....which are more OLD FASHIONED, traditional -even fairy talish - I have always known, had a vision in my heart -since in my teens - I sought after & chased them down with everything in me, doing what I needed to do, to acheive those dreams , so on a lessor scale, I have the DRIVE to achieve when I set my mind to something ..... I just have a lessor threshold than the ALPHA Female that many may envision when you hear the term. 

One of those things I wanted greatly was to have a good MAN beside me through all of this acheiving ...to be halved with another/married, to have abiding love, romance, a spouse who may be indepedent & capable to live on his own if he had too - but still feeling a NEED to be with the one he/she loves. If that makes any sense !? For me, that plays into the best part of living and breathing - that unspeakable emotional connection to another / ROMANCE & abiding LOVE. I don't see this as weakness, but in the ALPHA world --it may be considered "weakness", so that lowers my rank a few rungs, as that means I am a "needy ALPHA". ha ha 

But Passive - I have never been, though in high school, I was more quiet & backwards, but if I was called out or didn't agree with something, I suddenly grew balls to speak. 

Independently minded - I wouldn't know how else to be. Also, I have never been the type to follow any crowds, I was always my own person, always knew exactly what I wanted, or wouldn't accept, could spell it out at any given time. And had no trouble verbalizing it . I didn't always have popular friends but this meant little to me, it was about character, not popularity to me.

Me & my husband couldn't be farther apart in our primary temperments... I am a choleric (many Alpha traits by nature- plus undesirable ones like NO patience, bossy, demanding ) . He is primarily a Phlegmatic- which has many BETA traits , also by nature. 

Here is something that will confirm your belief that Alphas and Betas make a good match -- although I am using it more in the line of temperments here , in reading about the Choleric in love, it states they often choose a Plegamatic


> People with this temperament are attracted by those who are good listeners, smart at handling conflicts and disagreements and have other recognized social skills. While they analyze and hide their own emotions, choleric people look for someone who is emotionally expressive, flexible and even hesitant. Often phlegmatic people are their choice


 Four Temperaments in Love - Choleric Love

I did a thread on temperments here : http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...ments-our-spouses-better-understand-them.html





RoseRed said:


> In no way shape or form do I have any interest in being superior to anyone. I am not loud, bombastic, nor overly aggressive, however I will stand my ground... just like my foremothers. However in this day and age...some women tend to harp on this superiority/inferiority dilemma too much and the knee-jerk reaction is that they have to act like a man. I do not agree with this, as I wish to be honored, respected for my contribution to be regarded equally no matter man or woman. I am not in competition with any male worker. Our brain as a species has the exact same learning and working potential no matter the gender.


Love your comments RoseRed, I tend to think alot like you. 





> .. the care of my famiy and H is still utmost in my heart....this will never change. The advent of supermarkets, public schools and the like, has changed the dynamics of life..changed the roles of men and women, however it should not change the purpose... of making a life.


:iagree:


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## FirstYearDown (Sep 15, 2011)

Gloria Steinem is a feminist and she is married....to a man. :rofl:

So is feminism like Nazism or Communism? Which one?

I suppose you think that women who do not want children are lesbians too? What if I told you that I am completely heterosexual, yet I chose a *man *who did not want kids, because I don't want them either? 

What about working mothers, who juggle work *and *parenthood? Are they bisexual? 

How interesting that your spelling has improved, even though you are still posting via mobile device. :rofl: Don't blame technology for your lack of eloquence and credibility. 

You mentioned the Bible and God a lot, which means that you are hiding behind religion to justify your nonsense about "feminazi's". Not very alpha of you!


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## RoseRed (Aug 27, 2011)

unbelievable said:


> Things are much better now. More women and children are on poverty roles. Juvenile delinquency is through the roof. More women than ever are diagnosed with depression. The economic disparity between the sexes is about the same as it was in 1950. I haven't researched it, but I suspect women report less satisfaction with marriage now than in 1950.


So what is your point? That all women revert back to a stateof imbalance? Of course there are difficulties when change is involved...any change for social justice has a painful growth process. If you make such statements, it would be responsible if you had proof to back up your theories.

Have you researched the poverty of single women and children through the depression of the 1930's? 

That is like telling Marthin Luther King Jr. to shut up because it his cause is will be detrimental! Is there complete social racial equality yet... no... but its far better now than it was then!

May I suggest that you read MLK Jr's Essay " Letter from a Birmingham Jail" He makes a great case about the error of social fear and apathy for change. Truly a amazing American gift!


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Sorry but comparing alpha females to nazism is ridiculous.

I have lost ancestors in the Halocaust and I don't appreciate the reference.


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## FirstYearDown (Sep 15, 2011)

that_girl said:


> Sorry but comparing alpha females to nazism is ridiculous.
> 
> *I have lost ancestors in the Halocaust and I don't appreciate the reference*.


 Sorry lovey. What a horrible cross Hitler gave the Jewish people to bear.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

FirstYearDown said:


> Sorry lovey. What a horrible cross Hitler gave the Jewish people to bear.


It's not Hitler that I despise. He was a man who had an agenda, etc. Whatever. History is history and thankfully he committed suicide.

I just don't like people comparing mundane things to Nazis or Nazism. It doesn't come close.

An overbearing woman doesn't compare to a Nazi soldier. I doubt that woman wants to kill all men. 

lol....that's the only thing I ever get offended over. Just because I hardly see the correlation.


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## FirstYearDown (Sep 15, 2011)

If it wasn't for Hitler, there would have been no Holocaust.

I completely concur with the above post.


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## SockPuppet (May 16, 2011)

Gitdoun said:


> If you feminazi had the slightest power of observation you will notice I am posting via smartphone and errors via Auto populate will happen. Second comparing feminism to Nazism is appropriate. Feminism attacks society, family, and religion just like Nazism!! The term feminism can be used to describe a political and cultural movement aimed at establishing MORE rights and MORE legal protection for women. The ideology of Feminism pretends to be about giving women equal rights in the workplace when in fact it is devoted to discouraging women from seeking fulfillment in motherhood and being house wives. Feminism has trained women to reject this model as "Old Fashioned", "Oppressive" stereotype even though it reflects her natural instinct. It further argues for a woman to be competent and empowered ( ALPHA FEMALE ) she must be discouraged and eventually oppose traditional family roles. The truth is feminist or feminazism is a massive social engineering program designed to undermine the institution of marriage and family. Behind the facade of "women's rights"; Feminism is Lesbian in character. It teaches that heterosexual roles are not dictated by God and human nature but are "socially constructed" and oppressive to women. This is a communist assumption ! Communism argues that human beings define reality, not god and nature. It claims that sex roles are socially based rather than biologically based. Feminism advanced the idea that our inherent male and female characteristics are mere stereotypes. The fact is that men and women are created differently, they complete each other. (ALPHA MALE , BETA FEMALE)
> 
> In short, nobody with the interests of a healthy society would try to ignore nature and biblical defined gender roles upon which society is built upon. (ALPHA MALE. BETA FEMALE) Yet feminists have broken up families by defying the delicate and complimentary relationship between men and women upon which a family is based.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_




Where did you get your views on Feminism? Keep in mind its usually the extremists in any organization that get the most face time.

Heres your challenge, re-read this thread. You will find it is full of feminist belief.


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

RoseRed said:


> I find it interesting, purely on sociological poit of view, the reaction of men in the workplace to a woman such as myself... not only to my physicality but my intellect and mannerisms as well. I am a tall woman, fit, with an athletic build, I prefer to wear heels at work that puts me over 6' tall. I dress very professionally and appropiately for the office, but in no way do I have a masculine wardrobe. I am very professional, yet warm in speech, cordial, knowledgable in my field, with an economy of words. I have no fear in addressing a work related issue even in dispute, but my voice is always calm, yet firm and assertive.
> 
> I find most men respond in 1 of 3 manners.
> 
> ...


Its entirely possible that instead of being a socialogical view of men, this could be a good indicator that it is time to find a job in a better environment.

I work in a large corporation, and if these behaviors defined more than a small minority, heads would roll. Every year, employees take confidential assessments of workplace values, and their results impact their manager's career, and each other's pay. Maybe I live in a unique geographical area, but most people I know care little about the person's gender. Regardless of gender, you won't see a six figure income without demonstrated personal results.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

that_girl said:


> I think a lot of it has to do with the way boys are raised these days.
> 
> Maybe people want them to behave like girls. Not only at home, but in the classroom. As a teacher, I've done a lot of reading on how boys learn and "normal" behaviour for boys so I try very hard to let them be boys.
> 
> ...


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## RoseRed (Aug 27, 2011)

Gitdoun said:


> If you feminazi had the slightest power of observation you will notice I am posting via smartphone and errors via Auto populate will happen. Second comparing feminism to Nazism is appropriate. Feminism attacks society, family, and religion just like Nazism!! The term feminism can be used to describe a political and cultural movement aimed at establishing MORE rights and MORE legal protection for women. The ideology of Feminism pretends to be about giving women equal rights in the workplace when in fact it is devoted to discouraging women from seeking fulfillment in motherhood and being house wives. Feminism has trained women to reject this model as "Old Fashioned", "Oppressive" stereotype even though it reflects her natural instinct. It further argues for a woman to be competent and empowered ( ALPHA FEMALE ) she must be discouraged and eventually oppose traditional family roles. The truth is feminist or feminazism is a massive social engineering program designed to undermine the institution of marriage and family. Behind the facade of "women's rights"; Feminism is Lesbian in character. It teaches that heterosexual roles are not dictated by God and human nature but are "socially constructed" and oppressive to women. This is a communist assumption ! Communism argues that human beings define reality, not god and nature. It claims that sex roles are socially based rather than biologically based. Feminism advanced the idea that our inherent male and female characteristics are mere stereotypes. The fact is that men and women are created differently, they complete each other. (ALPHA MALE , BETA FEMALE)
> 
> In short, nobody with the interests of a healthy society would try to ignore nature and biblical defined gender roles upon which society is built upon. (ALPHA MALE. BETA FEMALE) Yet feminists have broken up families by defying the delicate and complimentary relationship between men and women upon which a family is based.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Very interesting.. and amusing diatribe...nonsensical farse so full of theorical, let alone philosophical holes, its falls apart immediately.

All the conviction... none of the facts...

hmmm... now who's speaking of fascism??


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## RoseRed (Aug 27, 2011)

Halien said:


> Its entirely possible that instead of being a socialogical view of men, this could be a good indicator that it is time to find a job in a better environment.
> 
> I work in a large corporation, and if these behaviors defined more than a small minority, heads would roll. Every year, employees take confidential assessments of workplace values, and their results impact their manager's career, and each other's pay. Maybe I live in a unique geographical area, but most people I know care little about the person's gender. Regardless of gender, you won't see a six figure income without demonstrated personal results.


Could very well be true... and kudos your corporation. However we well know what corporate mandates, is not always applied. 

I am not speaking of wage earning, or corporate mandates, but of the individual male response. The construction industry is a very male dominant field and I presume it may be a wihile for attitudes to change. I have no fear of this, but more of a curiosity to the male attitude.

I work in the construction industry, however not quite to the field I desire... but wiithin a couple of years I will be moving into the subset I desire. I am paid on par with any other of my skill set and performance. My scale falls within the corporate education/experience bracket.


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## adv (Feb 26, 2011)

RoseRed said:


> I'm not one for assigning people based upon the letters of the greek alphabet nor are we as a species should be equated to a pack of wolves...
> 
> My personality traits are what they are... I am a strong, independant, extroverted, fiesty, self-disciplined, goal-oriented minded woman that can toe to toe with anyone with confidence, yet with the grace, and eloquence that my gender and my education has given me. I was raised in a very humble, yet realistic view on life and death (a ranch in the middle of nowhere), with very traditional 50's style parents.
> 
> ...


One of my best bosses was a woman who had graduated from West Point, who took no excuses for not getting a job done if it was possible, but was also very personable. Most of my co-workers called her a ball breaker, but I just saw her as a boss who could get things done and done well.


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## RoseRed (Aug 27, 2011)

adv said:


> One of my best bosses was a woman who had graduated from West Point, who took no excuses for not getting a job done if it was possible, but was also very personable. Most of my co-workers called her a ball breaker, but I just saw her as a boss who could get things done and done well.


And you both shared a mutual professional respect. Again, I am most heartened. 

Thank you!


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

RoseRed said:


> I am not speaking of wage earning, or corporate mandates, but of the individual male response. The construction industry is a very male dominant field and I presume it may be a wihile for attitudes to change. I have no fear of this, but more of a curiosity to the male attitude..


I'm talking of individual male response. To suggest that most men are offended by a strong, confident woman, resorting to making passes at her to get even is, in itself, the type of comment that creates stereotypes and fosters the type of gender bashing that really serve no positive benefit on this board. My field is engineering/technical, and mostly male dominated, but the behavior you described is very rare as more and more women succeed in the industry. I honestly don't doubt that this type of behavior takes place in some types of workplaces, but to say that 'men' in some collective sense suffer the same insecurities is stretching it. When many men read of this type of behavior you describe, its it sounds like men that we can't even understand, and we're apalled to think that a woman would have to put up with it. 

Since my company was named in the top 10 employers in exellence for minority and female engineers in publications, we read the executive summaries of similar companies who compete, and the women and minorities describe a culture that is overall much more positive than where you work.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Halien said:


> I'm talking of individual male response. To suggest that most men are offended by a strong, confident woman, resorting to making passes at her to get even is, in itself, the type of comment that creates stereotypes and fosters the type of gender bashing that really serve no positive benefit on this board. My field is engineering/technical, and mostly male dominated, but the behavior you described is very rare as more and more women succeed in the industry. I honestly don't doubt that this type of behavior takes place in some types of workplaces, but to say that 'men' in some collective sense suffer the same insecurities is stretching it. When many men read of this type of behavior you describe, its it sounds like men that we can't even understand, and we're apalled to think that a woman would have to put up with it.
> 
> Since my company was named in the top 10 employers in exellence for minority and female engineers in publications, we read the executive summaries of similar companies who compete, and the women and minorities describe a culture that is overall much more positive than where you work.


You and I are used to working in the same type of professional environment. Yes, it tends to still be heavily dominated by men but that has changed over the years. But what RedRose desribes is pretty foreign to this.

That said, I have worked for a manager who moved over from the construction industry and he was always in trouble with HR for his attitude towards women. There was an attitude that hints at what she is saying. This is a very skewed sample of men in the workplace. Certainly a professional workplace with intelligent people these days is not at all like her environment.

I am very attracted to strong women. I certainly do not fear them. I have never had issues with strong women in the workplace. I have hired many for sure. I have have worked for several. In a business environment I sourround myself with competent people ( men or women ) at any opportunity.


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## SockPuppet (May 16, 2011)

Halien said:


> I'm talking of individual male response. To suggest that most men are offended by a strong, confident woman, resorting to making passes at her to get even is, in itself, the type of comment that creates stereotypes and fosters the type of gender bashing that really serve no positive benefit on this board. My field is engineering/technical, and mostly male dominated, but the behavior you described is very rare as more and more women succeed in the industry. I honestly don't doubt that this type of behavior takes place in some types of workplaces, but to say that 'men' in some collective sense suffer the same insecurities is stretching it. When many men read of this type of behavior you describe, its it sounds like men that we can't even understand, and we're apalled to think that a woman would have to put up with it.
> 
> Since my company was named in the top 10 employers in exellence for minority and female engineers in publications, we read the executive summaries of similar companies who compete, and the women and minorities describe a culture that is overall much more positive than where you work.


Nice spin on things. 

From a business background I have seen many men who see business women as inferior beings, only capable of pouring coffee and bending over to pick pencils off the floor. 
Flip side would be domineering business women who have a sence of entitlement for making it as far up the ladder as they have. So jaded by their personal histories, or perception of such, that they are overly hostile to male peers.

Another generalization I can make based upon personal experience is that all Female managers I have worked under, that dont fit my description of domineering, have been the best managers to work for. Very employee oriented. I have yet to see first hand, a male manager who gives a hoot about anything other than a lurking promotion and the bottom line.

The worst of the worst I have dealt with are all female. middle aged baby boomers with nothing but venom on their breath. Business women, just like men, can run the gambit from Great, to "Please kill me now."

I currently work in sales for a small company of a dozen employees. Only three of us are male, one recently hired. GM and Owner are both Female. We all interact great, and gender has zero role to play in this company. It is refreshing, seeing as how my last job, I worked for a male Chauvinist. Worthy to note, after quitting I was replaced by a female. My ex-co workers assume its to ensure the boss can continue dominating the will of those around him.


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## RoseRed (Aug 27, 2011)

Halien said:


> I'm talking of individual male response. To suggest that most men are offended by a strong, confident woman, resorting to making passes at her to get even is, in itself, the type of comment that creates stereotypes and fosters the type of gender bashing that really serve no positive benefit on this board. My field is engineering/technical, and mostly male dominated, but the behavior you described is very rare as more and more women succeed in the industry. I honestly don't doubt that this type of behavior takes place in some types of workplaces, but to say that 'men' in some collective sense suffer the same insecurities is stretching it. When many men read of this type of behavior you describe, its it sounds like men that we can't even understand, and we're apalled to think that a woman would have to put up with it.
> 
> Since my company was named in the top 10 employers in exellence for minority and female engineers in publications, we read the executive summaries of similar companies who compete, and the women and minorities describe a culture that is overall much more positive than where you work.


My apoligies for the misunderstanding... It was not my intention to promote a stereotype... however I am just speaking from my own personal experiences and the male responses were 'in-line' to the OP's original train of thought. 

Again, I am grateful that your corporation has taken strides towards equality.. it is much needed. I, however, have yet the opportunity to have the pleasure to work for such a foreward thiinking company. Until then, I will continue to work where I am, as it my only source of income, and I am honestly not upset nor indignant with my workplace, just purely curious. I continue to work with the project in mind first and foremost, the atittudes of others do not affect my performance.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

I'm in the non-profit sector. My office is 100% female. Our volunteers are 70% female. Sad but true.


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## SockPuppet (May 16, 2011)

RoseRed said:


> ...and the male responses were 'in-line' to the OP's original train of thought.


If thats a jab at me your perception is off.

There is a rise in beta-oriented males, there is a similar rise in the number of women who are filling what was once male dominated roles.

Call them Alpha, call them strong, call them whatever you wish. Im looking for insight to see if my percieved coorelation holds any strength.

This thread has gone off topic to the point we are debating stereotypes and labels as they apply to men, women, individuals and the mass public. Not that I mind, your back and forth banter is very amusing and ionsightful.

In a work environment I dont care if your black, white, man, woman, handicapped or handi capable. If you dont give your best effort, get out.




> I'm in the non-profit sector. My office is 100% female. Our volunteers are 70% female. Sad but true.


I have never understood the non-profit thing. Must be my upbringing.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

SockPuppet said:


> I have never understood the non-profit thing. Must be my upbringing.


The difference is in the mission because a non-profit's mission is never to make money for shareholders it's to make money to complete their mission whatever that may be.

It's an entirely different value system but runs very similarly.


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## RoseRed (Aug 27, 2011)

Trenton said:


> The difference is in the mission because a non-profit's mission is never to make money for shareholders it's to make money to complete their mission whatever that may be.
> 
> It's an entirely different value system but runs very similarly.


Oh my.. if this thread goes to the Philosophy of Altruism... we would be into a whole other can of worms!!


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## RoseRed (Aug 27, 2011)

SockPuppet said:


> If thats a jab at me your perception is off.


Jab... upper cut... left hook... whatever suits your needs..sorry couldn't resist.. just teasing..


I simply meant that perhaps my viewpoint may or may not be congruent with your original post.

Simply put.. I am an alpha beta delta eplison omega female looking for the same in a man... It is my physiology, psychology ...that is my biology. 

Every human has these traits... its a matter of society that deems if a specific 'trait' is favourable or not... that is if women have a knee-jerk reaction to the imbalance of the past or if men feel threatened if not being SOLELY alpha is a trait of weakness. There is no shame or fault in either gender showing any traits of humanity... Strength, empowerment, compassion, nuturing or caring... no human can ultimately deny that these traits exist within both genders. It is all about balance... and acceptance. 



blessings..

My 2 days of work analyzing and writing my ethics paper on the 1925 Scopes monkey trial has taken its toll on the brain cells!


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

SockPuppet said:


> There is a rise in beta-oriented males, there is a similar rise in the number of women who are filling what was once male dominated roles.
> 
> Call them Alpha, call them strong, call them whatever you wish. Im looking for insight to see if my percieved coorelation holds any strength.


Sockpuppet,

To be honest, I don't really see this correlation in my general area, but recognize that I work around a pretty unique environment. If one partner makes above the national averages, even if their spouse works for another company, the average in my small community is still far above national averages. I wonder if your situation might be seen with a greater disparity of incomes.

I'm friends with sisters where I work, and their relationships seem to show what I see alot, which is women who look for spouses similar to them, as RoseRed was indicating. Once is a VP, and she is very polished in her dress, bringing in feminine beauty in a business attire. Her husband is succesfull in his career also, appearing like the alpha type. The sister is frumpy, rarely looking like her hair has seen a brush, but this woman is like a force of nature in work. She just gets it done, and is incredibly intelligent. Her husband, who I met at a party, is almost like a male twin. I do have another female friend that was married to a guy I worked with in the past, who seemed like the opposite of her husband. He was laid back, very beta, and a goof off, while she appears to be very intense, very business feminine. They invited me to their wedding, and in the reception, she changed to the same goofy person as him, and we had an incredible time.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

I think there's a HUGE difference between "Strong" and "Crazy, controlling Shrew". I think people are confusing the two.


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## okeydokie (Sep 10, 2008)

i find it very amusing that several women on this thread are using the biology card to further their point on alpha females. alot of the same women who blast biology as a driving force for men wanting to have sex with their wives purely to have sex.

for the record, i am not at all intimidated by "strong" women, as long as they are proficient at what they do and are not skating by just to fill a quota ( i have equal disdain for men who are worthless at their job). i do know many that also take advantage of being a woman and actually purposely under-perform because they can. however, i have worked with many women who are tops at what they do and i do not even view them as women in the workplace, just competent employees


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

that_girl said:


> I think there's a HUGE difference between "Strong" and "Crazy, controlling Shrew". I think people are confusing the two.


Thank you. A strong male is not an @$$hole either. I think at times a strong male may be perceived that way from time to time, because people who are assertive can come off that way depending on the circumstances as you cannot please everyone. But you make a point I was not sure how to make. Which is there is a difference in being strong and just being beligerent and self centered. A truly strong individual has a solid self image but they can work beyond that to get things done and do what is right. 

Also being totally Alpha I do not consider strong. Strength has a comination of traits. Being one extreme or the other is weak.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

SimplyAmorous said:


> 1st question - what is an Alpha female ... Top 10.5 Alpha Female Characteristics
> 
> Urban Dictionary: Alpha Female


Maybe we should have had a definition here on what we were talking about. 

I was thinking of a strong woman more in this sense:

_10 An excellent wife who can find?
She is far more precious than jewels.
11The heart of her husband trusts in her,
and he will have no lack of gain.
12She does him good, and not harm,
all the days of her life.
13She seeks wool and flax,
and works with willing hands.
14She is like the ships of the merchant;
she brings her food from afar.
15She rises while it is yet night
and provides food for her household
and portions for her maidens.
16She considers a field and buys it;
with the fruit of her hands she plants a vineyard.
17She dresses herself with strength
and makes her arms strong.
18She perceives that her merchandise is profitable.
Her lamp does not go out at night.
19She puts her hands to the distaff,
and her hands hold the spindle.
20She opens her hand to the poor
and reaches out her hands to the needy.
21She is not afraid of snow for her household,
for all her household are clothed in scarlet.
22She makes bed coverings for herself;
her clothing is fine linen and purple.
23Her husband is known in the gates
when he sits among the elders of the land.
24She makes linen garments and sells them;
she delivers sashes to the merchant.
25 Strength and dignity are her clothing,
and she laughs at the time to come.
26She opens her mouth with wisdom,
and the teaching of kindness is on her tongue.
27She looks well to the ways of her household
and does not eat the bread of idleness.
28Her children rise up and call her blessed;
her husband also, and he praises her:
29"Many women have done excellently,
but you surpass them all."
30 Charm is deceitful, and beauty is vain,
but a woman who fears the LORD is to be praised.
31Give her of the fruit of her hands,
and let her works praise her in the gates.
~ Proverbs 31:10-31_

So, my definition of "strong" woman and "alpha" woman from the references above don't necessarily match up. 

I want to be a strong woman, I don't really care about being 'alpha'.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Enchantment said:


> Maybe we should have had a definition here on what we were talking about.
> 
> I was thinking of a strong woman more in this sense:
> 
> ...


Nice. Well put. :iagree:

There is a very big difference between just being Alpha and having true strength as you point out. When I say I am attracted to strong women this is what I am meaning. It does take a certain amount of Alpha characteristics for sure but a strong person is not limited by that.
You can count on a strong woman. You can only count on a pure Alpha ( if there is such a thing ) to look after their own self interests. A strong person can use the Alpha traits for the good of the group / family. That is strength.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

A possible interpretation:

Proverbs Chapter 31 KJV

10 Who can find a virtuous woman? for her price is far above rubies.

*It seems that even somewhere between the tenth and sixth centuries B.C., a good woman was hard to come by.*

11 The heart of her husband doth safely trust in her, so that he shall have no need of spoil.

12 She will do him good and not evil all the days of her life.

*She is good and trustworthy. Her husband finds everything he needs in her, so he has no reason to look elsewhere.
*
13 She seeketh wool, and flax, and worketh willingly with her hands.

14 She is like the merchants’ ships; she bringeth her food from afar.

15 She riseth also while it is yet night, and giveth meat to her household, and a portion to her maidens.

16 She considereth a field, and buyeth it: with the fruit of her hands she planteth a vineyard.

*She’s a career woman, a good negotiator, and has a mind for business.*

17 She girdeth her loins with strength, and strengtheneth her arms.

18 She perceiveth that her merchandise is good: her candle goeth not out by night.

19 She layeth her hands to the spindle, and her hands hold the distaff.

*She’s a strong, self confident, take-charge kind of woman.*

20 She stretcheth out her hand to the poor; yea, she reacheth forth her hands to the needy.

*She’s kind and generous, and has a good heart.
*
21 She is not afraid of the snow for her household: for all her household are clothed with scarlet.

*Her husband and children have everything they need, rain or shine.*

22 She maketh herself coverings of tapestry; her clothing is silk and purple.

*She’s beautiful, takes care of herself, and keeps up with the latest fashion trends.*

23 Her husband is known in the gates, when he sitteth among the elders of the land.
*
She marries and keeps an Alpha/ strong male.*

24 She maketh fine linen, and selleth it; and delivereth girdles unto the merchant.

*She doesn’t have a dead-end job. She’s at the top of her game.*

25 Strength and honour are her clothing; and she shall rejoice in time to come.

*She sees the value in maintaining a good reputation in the community.*

26 She openeth her mouth with wisdom; and in her tongue is the law of kindness.

*She’s a smart woman, and delivers her wisdom in a kind and gentle manner.*

27 She looketh well to the ways of her household, and eateth not the bread of idleness.

*She’s not a lazy person who spends all day watching TV and ignoring her children.*

28 Her children arise up, and call her blessed; her husband also, and he praiseth her.

*She is admired and cherished by those she loves and is publicly praised for her efforts.*

29 Many daughters have done virtuously, but thou excellest them all.

*She’s perhaps the only woman who can honestly say “I’m not like other women”.
*
30 Favour is deceitful, and beauty is vain: but a woman that feareth the LORD, she shall be praised.

*She knows that charm is deceptive and beauty is fleeting so she opts for a more substantive lifestyle.*

31 Give her of the fruit of her hands; and let her own works praise her in the gates.

*Her man will honor her and encourage her to enjoy the fruits of her labor, and her reputation will speak for itself and bring praise from her peers.*


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## RoseRed (Aug 27, 2011)

okeydokie said:


> i find it very amusing that several women on this thread are using the biology card to further their point on alpha females. alot of the same women who blast biology as a driving force for men wanting to have sex with their wives purely to have sex.


 Ok... I'll go the record... I'll show my biology card...

I like to have sex purely for the physical act and release..

AND....

I like to make love for the emotional and spiritual connectivity..

I cant imagine any woman not having the same mindset... however I do believe that, like most everything in life, it needs to be addressed in kept in a relative, mutually agreed upon balance.


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## RoseRed (Aug 27, 2011)

entropy3000 said:


> a possible interpretation:
> 
> Proverbs chapter 31 kjv
> 
> ...



amen!


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Enchantment --YES !!! *Proverbs 31 *has always been MY personal model or I aspired it to be. I used to read that all the time, and compare myself . Although I WISH they had at least ONE VERSE in there about taking care of your husbands *physical needs *, maybe that would have put a fire under me & helped ME be a better wife in the past! It is about the ONLY thing missing in this, in my opinionated opinion.

I have always looked at these scriptures in a way of handing MONEY more than anything else, I SHINE in this area, always have. 

Even though I don't work, I know how to spend very very wisely & make what we do buy - LAST. I cook from scratch, I only buy onsale, the list is endless. Waste , for me , is a moral sin. Wasting of time was very difficult for me in the past also, I felt we needed to always be "doing" "acheiving". In a way, I think I didn't stop to smell the roses enough -because I went a little overboard in that. 

I will dissect these :


_10 An excellent wife who can find?
She is far more precious than jewels.
*If she is like these scriptures, she is a rare find -in this day and age with the way society has embraced debt & immeidate pleasure without planning*. 

11The heart of her husband trusts in her,
and he will have no lack of gain.

*My husband trusts me with his life...and with ALL of his money - he always tells me there is no other woman like me to be found.  *

12She does him good, and not harm,
all the days of her life.

*Wives should want to make their husbands lives as CAREFREE from their end as humanly possble -and be at their backs always. Of coarse husbands should do the same, both working as a team together, pulling their load. *

13She seeks wool and flax,
and works with willing hands.

*I may not work outside the home but I consider it solely my job to mend & do all womanly things within our home --plus help him with his manly projects *

14She is like the ships of the merchant;
she brings her food from afar.
15She rises while it is yet night
and provides food for her household
and portions for her maidens.

*Getting up early , preparing the meals for the day -making sure all in her household are fed & needs taken care of, she knows this is her role in life. *

16She considers a field and buys it;
with the fruit of her hands she plants a vineyard.

*When she lays her $$ on the table & buys something, she has plans to use it wisely, and productively*. 

17She dresses herself with strength
and makes her arms strong.
18She perceives that her merchandise is profitable.
Her lamp does not go out at night.

*Her $$ has not been wasted, she knows she did well with her 
planned purchases, this makes her smile & she & her family is living the fruits of her careful choices*.

19She puts her hands to the distaff,
and her hands hold the spindle.

*I doubt there are too many making their own clothes today but to mend them when necessary & diligently shop for good sales is very wise*. 

20She opens her hand to the poor
and reaches out her hands to the needy.
She shares what she has with others, because she is able to do this -because she herself has spent her resources wisely, and has left overs for others in need. Volunterring our time to help the needy and/or our money to those less fortunate. All beautiuful things to do.

21She is not afraid of snow for her household,
for all her household are clothed in scarlet.
*She is prepared for all seasons , even the harsh cold winter .
*. 

22She makes bed coverings for herself;
her clothing is fine linen and purple.
23Her husband is known in the gates
when he sits among the elders of the land.
*Her husband has a good reputation. What is that saying....Behind every great man there is a great woman. My husband is not Mr Alpha but a reputation that is outstanding , absolutely. I would go with Proverbs 22 *"*a good name is more desirable than great riches , to be esteemed is better than silver or gold*". 

24She makes linen garments and sells them;
she delivers sashes to the merchant.

* I don't sell anything but some books on Half.com & do Ebay once in a while ,take on a few side jobs here & there *

25 Strength and dignity are her clothing,
and she laughs at the time to come.

*She is not consumed with Worry for the future because she has carefully planned for her families future and what WILL come, she has $$ put aside for everything needed, she is prepared. *

26She opens her mouth with wisdom,
and the teaching of kindness is on her tongue.

*She is a smart woman with much common sense, she knows of what she speaks and is a fine example to others in how she lives. *

27She looks well to the ways of her household
and does not eat the bread of idleness.

*She does not waste her time doing things that will corrupt her character, or keep her from doing what needs to be done for to maintain a household of integrity. My biggest idlenss is TAM ! Ha ha *

28Her children rise up and call her blessed;
her husband also, and he praises her:

*My husband has always praised me in how I handle our finances & planning. Now in other things as well  My oldest son feels I did a superb job raising him and tells me he would not change anything, he loves my style. Even though it is very different than many parents. He is not trying to be kind either, we both speak it like it is. This speaks of something. My kids do not always love me but they will thank me someday. When I am stern with them, there is good reason, they know it. *

29"Many women have done excellently,
but you surpass them all."
*Her husband will see her as the finest among all women. *

30 Charm is deceitful, and beauty is vain,
but a woman who fears the LORD is to be praised.
*Charm may at 1st be attracting, But it is not always of the heart, it could be a means to get something from another, our LOOKS will fade, so we must have an inner beauty that attracts and is admirable , a wisdom that draws, to always do what is right before others, and of coarse manages her household in a Godly manner -how can you NOT praise this!? *

31Give her of the fruit of her hands,
and let her works praise her in the gates.
*Heaven will be her reward in addition to - all the joys she gathered from living a life full of wisdom & take care of her household. *. 
~ Proverbs 31:10-31_


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

From my experience there are very few women are actually who I would call strong. More wannabes really, good for show, but throw at 'em one nasty setback and they break. And those who don't, are instead bitter and angry women lol

My wife was once the strongest woman I have ever met. Completely alpha in every way. Unfortunately her strength waned over the years and gave way to the negative aspects of an alpha female. Our marriage seems to be continously wrestling each other off the throne.


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## SockPuppet (May 16, 2011)

I know what you mean Random.

Ive gathered good insight on strong women. They dont like labels or stereotypes. They dont fit the mold or have any interest in it. They want to be recognized as individuals.


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## FirstYearDown (Sep 15, 2011)

My family of origin sees me as weak, because I have struggled with mental health in the past. What they don't realize is it took enormous strength for me to bounce back, time and time again.

Instead of living in supportive housing, I struck out on my own. Instead of allowing my mother to be abusive, I left home and refused to return when she begged me to come back. *It was only when I took a stand for my own well being, that I begin to feel better. I empowered myself.*

These women that look down on me, they are all very weak. None of them had enough balls not to let men use them or leave husbands that cheated for years. :rofl: So "strong" huh?

I could have turned out much worse. The financially lean days I had taught me to be resourceful, as well as gave me the motivation to better myself. Despite my mental health issues, I still worked instead of letting the government support me. I got myself into one of the best universities in the country.

Setbacks *never *derail me, because I always get back up when I am knocked down and fight against adversity. 

My husband and I do not have power issues. We handle the things that we are good at and check in with each other. Sometimes I defer to him and other times, he defers to me.


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## RoseRed (Aug 27, 2011)

SockPuppet said:


> I know what you mean Random.
> 
> Ive gathered good insight on strong women. They dont like labels or stereotypes. They dont fit the mold or have any interest in it. They want to be recognized as individuals.


Is this not the the same as you wish to be regarded??? The respectful equality between humans? 

Do you want to be labelled? do you truly believe you are made from one mould? Do you not consider yourself an amazing unique individual?

I don't think anyone should be labelled,

but I am very curious about peoples reactions and interactions with each other. How I interact with people and how they respond to me.. Thats the human condition...we are social creatures... and I want to gain better understanding..


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

SockPuppet said:


> I know what you mean Random.
> 
> Ive gathered good insight on strong women. They dont like labels or stereotypes. They dont fit the mold or have any interest in it. They want to be recognized as individuals.


Heh and they have no need to boast, they let others shout out their admiration for them. They are indeed rare though, as of yet I have yet to meet another woman like wifey really. Sometimes I feel she really doesn't understand how limited her competition really is; she still gets jealous of other women when they flirt with me, when their quality is really laughable compared to hers.

Even if I whine about her crazy sides (she can be just as much a dangerous, selfish and manipulative demon from hell, as an angel to illuminate one's path through the darkness). I wouldn't have it any other way. I can't imagine having a wife who I have to drag behind me all the time, my wife stands by my side, not behind (though sometimes in my way!!! grrrr heh)

Sometimes I wonder though, if people mistake toughness with strength. I say "ok ok you can take it, but can you pull through and shine?"

She really shines though I sometimes wonder if marriage has made her a bit soft. She used to be ambitious with a high sense of purpose, strong with principle, morality and heart. She had pride without arrogance, independence without selfishness. She literally radiated even more majesty and respect in the past.

Through what she went through, a weak woman would be broken, a tough woman would be bitter, but a strong woman simply smiles. We've been hit so many times but our marriage is still unbreakable. Who else can I trust more to be my wife and the mother and example for my daughter?

Meh... maybe I should tell her all this... hopefully solve our next issue (she's still jealous sometimes with other women even though no one can compete with her! Gah! Women... :banghead: )


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## SockPuppet (May 16, 2011)

RoseRed said:


> Is this not the the same as you wish to be regarded??? The respectful equality between humans?
> 
> Do you want to be labelled? do you truly believe you are made from one mould? Do you not consider yourself an amazing unique individual?
> 
> ...


What I considered respectful equality between humans is very different than what I thought before starting this thread. 

I have grown a great deal, and have found that these "moulds" I fit, and the ones I force others into through my own perception is very limiting to human interactions. I see how preconceived notions, like everything in the OP are not only detrimental to society, as we are all individuals, but also damaging to me, as my "truth" is defined by labels, a creation of man, a false creation that holds no absolute truth.

I too want to gain a better understanding. But thats why we are all here.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

SockPuppet said:


> What I considered respectful equality between humans is very different than what I thought before starting this thread.
> 
> I have grown a great deal, and have found that these "moulds" I fit, and the ones I force others into through my own perception is very limiting to human interactions. I see how preconceived notions, like everything in the OP are not only detrimental to society, as we are all individuals, but also damaging to me, as my "truth" is defined by labels, a creation of man, a false creation that holds no absolute truth.
> 
> I too want to gain a better understanding. But thats why we are all here.


The moment we give up generalizations and preconceived notions that are based upon our experiences and peer out from within ourselves it's really obvious how little we know and understand. It's also obvious how much credit we have been giving our own point of view and exposes the limited experience/knowledge we have. I think this is really confusing and overwhelming for most and so we quickly stop looking. How many people do you know who like to walk around saying "I don't know" all the time? If you can't add, "but I'm going to try to find out" then discovering you don't know is worthless.

I think great writers, explorers, scientists, entrepreneurs and artists are examples of individuals who tap into this and their work results in the discoveries and progress we as humans have made. It is a gift and a curse that we all have the propensity to have but most of us lack the fortitude and courage to pursue.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

In general I am an out of the box thinker.

However. While there are many great ideas to be discovered outside of the box, there are an infinite number of very bad ideas outside of the box as well. I contend that the number of bad ideas outside of the box approaches infinity at a much greater rate than the good ideas approach infinity.

We rely on our experiences because they are most likely going to promote our survival. Why. natrual selection. True natrual selection does not garantee tomorrow.

There is a time and place for leaps of faith and thinking outside of the box. But to just say that anything we know is all bad is just mentally playing with oneself. Great for self gratification but it does noone else any real service. So fine to have an open mind but realize that most ramdon thoughts and ideas are total bull [email protected] We open our minds for the rare opportunity of building on our current knowledge. It takes wisdom to know the difference. When to take the risk and when not to.

Frankly I think we are all just part of a 13th floor simulation. Someone wanted to add some Entropy so they cranked up the "Trenton" values.

It is fun to start a company like Twitter and not have old minds cloud things ( pun intended ). I choose not to hire people with poor resumes because they are not held back by knowledge and experience. But if I am having open heart surgery, I will choose someone who has done it before and take my chances with them.

Yes, I enopyed Moneyball and yes that is pertinent to this discussion.

Beware of monsters from the Id. Forbidden Planet reference.

But if I am wrong, then by all mean lets replace our current president with ... a nine year old child. Might as well. No slam on Obama in particular.

The more I learn the less I know.


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## RoseRed (Aug 27, 2011)

SockPuppet said:


> What I considered respectful equality between humans is very different than what I thought before starting this thread.
> 
> I have grown a great deal, and have found that these "moulds" I fit, and the ones I force others into through my own perception is very limiting to human interactions. I see how preconceived notions, like everything in the OP are not only detrimental to society, as we are all individuals, but also damaging to me, as my "truth" is defined by labels, a creation of man, a false creation that holds no absolute truth.
> 
> I too want to gain a better understanding. But thats why we are all here.


We have a lifetime to discover our truth.. it will grow, fluxuate, change, and evolve. That is what we call wisedom. The fear of the unknown is a powerful deterent... many people give into fear and give up... their mind set and closed forever. I hold all men and women in great regard as I see, as human as I, the amazing potential of greatness... not necessarily to a scale of great thinkers, phiosophers, artists, scientists... but to those that count the most... THE PEOPLE THAT LOVE YOU! 

The strongest woman I have ever had the absolute honor and greatest gift to me was my great grandmother. Who had an amazing life of a million experiences... who lived to a month shy of 100 yrs old. She held herself quiet, thoughtful, strong, determined, courageous, compassionate, caring, patient .... and true to herself, a most Godly woman... she is the model I have deep in my heart and yet I know I still pale in comparison to her. I can easily and assuredly say.. she was EVERYTHING!


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Entropy3000 said:


> In general I am an out of the box thinker.
> 
> However. While there are many great ideas to be discovered outside of the box, there are an infinite number of very bad ideas outside of the box as well. I contend that the number of bad ideas outside of the box approaches infinity at a much greater rate than the good ideas approach infinity.
> 
> ...


Thinking outside of the box can have disastrous consequences and I never suggested otherwise. 

However. What leads you to believe that the negative possibilities outnumber the positives? Common sense tells me that it depends on who is doing the thinking.

Ideas are infinite but not at all bad or good. Of course, we need collective thinking to even recognize an idea as something more than just an idea. There always has to be a we for progress. A reminder of how small yet important the individual is to the whole and how important the whole is to the individual.

Monsters from the ID is exactly the problem of thinking without a collective, complete internal meltdown aka psychosis. Scary stuff.

Ever see the movie Cube? If my box was filled with that you can bet I'd be thinking outside of it.

Politics are like the hands that hold the box.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

RoseRed said:


> We have a lifetime to discover our truth.. it will grow, fluxuate, change, and evolve. That is what we call wisedom. The fear of the unknown is a powerful deterent... many people give into fear and give up... their mind set and closed forever. I hold all men and women in great regard as I see, as human as I, the amazing potential of greatness... not necessarily to a scale of great thinkers, phiosophers, artists, scientists... but to those that count the most... THE PEOPLE THAT LOVE YOU!
> 
> The strongest woman I have ever had the absolute honor and greatest gift to me was my great grandmother. Who had an amazing life of a million experiences... who lived to a month shy of 100 yrs old. She held herself quiet, thoughtful, strong, determined, courageous, compassionate, caring, patient .... and true to herself, a most Godly woman... she is the model I have deep in my heart and yet I know I still pale in comparison to her. I can easily and assuredly say.. she was EVERYTHING!


You see the amazing potential for greatness because it's better than recognizing that there is both amazing potential for greatness and badness in everyone including the ones you love the most. Which was my point, who wants to live with the truth? It's why we make up our own and I am OK with that. I understand the need for it.

On the other hand, it pisses me off a little because it also allows us to stay within a tiny circle and not reach out to others to expand the circle and in doing so we ignore a lot of pain and agony of fellow human beings that we absolutely could reach out to if we weren't so stuck in our circle (boxes and circles now).

"All that is needed for the forces of evil to triumph is for enough good men to do nothing." -Burke

How can we call ourselves good and hold one another in such high esteem when we turn a blind eye willingly and knowingly to the suffering in the world and most only act when doing something fulfills their own desires to do something good in order to feel better about themselves?

I'm ranting here. I don't mean it as a personal insult to you as I've no idea what you do or don't do. In my experience most of us prefer to stick to our circles, reach out to make ourselves feel good every now and then and let the troubles of others pass us by completely. This unnerves me always.

In regards to strong women, I don't know, I think it depends on the circumstance like anything else.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Trenton said:


> Thinking outside of the box can have disastrous consequences and I never suggested otherwise.
> 
> However. What leads you to believe that the negative possibilities outnumber the positives? Common sense tells me that it depends on who is doing the thinking.
> 
> ...


In fact I believe that all ideas have both good and bad to them depending on point of view and what they are meant to do and ultimately how we implement them. Plus the "it depends" plays a role. An idea may find its time. It is what it is, but some ideas can be more readily seen and realized when other compatible ideas are realized. meaning they may be more feasible because of other break throughs.

I have not seen cube. However in looking it up I get your point.

I am thinking that a given idea has some dependence on other ideas to be optimally realized I guess. So I agree an idea is not good or bad on its own.


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## RoseRed (Aug 27, 2011)

Trenton said:


> You see the amazing potential for greatness because it's better than recognizing that there is both amazing potential for greatness and badness in everyone including the ones you love the most. Which was my point, who wants to live with the truth? It's why we make up our own and I am OK with that. I understand the need for it.
> 
> On the other hand, it pisses me off a little because it also allows us to stay within a tiny circle and not reach out to others to expand the circle and in doing so we ignore a lot of pain and agony of fellow human beings that we absolutely could reach out to if we weren't so stuck in our circle (boxes and circles now).
> 
> ...


No insult taken... I understand the frustration you have expressed. I am a terminal optimist, but I fully understand that all humans have the potential for bad/evil acts, even worse to those they love. It all comes back to three principles, fear, hurt, and motive. It takes a strong person to overcome fear, to forgive hurt and fully investigate their motive and its purpose. It is much easier to to give into fear, hurt and motive... and then one's life becomes a reactionary one... not a proactive one, not only to benefit the world around them, but themselves as well. 

A quote I keep close to me...

Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourselves, Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous? Actually, who are you not to be? You are a child of God. Your playing small does not serve the world. There is nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other people won't feel insecure around you. We are all meant to shine, as children do. We were born to make manifest the glory of God that is within us. It's not just in some of us; it's in everyone. And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated from our own fear, our presence automatically liberates others.” Marianne Williamson

It is the power of one's true strong self... that you are worthy, have many God given gifts to share willingly and openly to the world. As simple as, if you smile and wish a good day to a stranger on the street, in the elevator, at the commuter train station... what effect does that have to the other. Does it not bring them a moment to see your light? Or do you do nothing... thinking if you said that, they would think you a nut and crazyman?? Are you courageous to share your good spirit or are you doubtful and fearful of the response you will receive? I did this little experiment for the last 3 months (as I am a terminal curious person too!) and made the point of doing this at least 3 times during my day. I have NEVER received a negative response! No matter age, gender, ethnic background, or assumed socio-economic status. Some even led to pleasant short simple little conversations about the weather, or such like... but at least I made a small difference in someones day with such a simple little gesture of good will. I am hopeful that my small act will be contagious....

As you may have noticed, people like to live in the quiet, comfortable, KNOWN realm of their own little bubble... and when it pops, as all bubbles do, all hell breaks loose! I too was at fault for living this way... but I knew my bubble was going to pop.. and yes I was so incredibly fearful... But I chose courage, and faith when it popped, even though I knew that fear, hurt, resentment, bitterness would be much easier to justify the popping of my bubble... 

Now... I don't live in a bubble.. refuse to let it entrap me... I have the blessings of true focus, centeredness, inner strength and grace. I have true inner freedom.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

RoseRed said:


> No insult taken... I understand the frustration you have expressed. I am a terminal optimist, but I fully understand that all humans have the potential for bad/evil acts, even worse to those they love. It all comes back to three principles, fear, hurt, and motive. It takes a strong person to overcome fear, to forgive hurt and fully investigate their motive and its purpose. It is much easier to to give into fear, hurt and motive... and then one's life becomes a reactionary one... not a proactive one, not only to benefit the world around them, but themselves as well.
> 
> A quote I keep close to me...
> 
> ...


Toad the Wet Sprocket quote...
"Is it that they fear the pain of death or could it be they fear the joy of life."

I agree with your post except for the God part, faith in self is much harder to have but far more tangible.


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## SockPuppet (May 16, 2011)

Trenton said:


> The moment we give up generalizations and preconceived notions that are based upon our experiences and peer out from within ourselves it's really obvious how little we know and understand. It's also obvious how much credit we have been giving our own point of view and exposes the limited experience/knowledge we have. I think this is really confusing and overwhelming for most and so we quickly stop looking. How many people do you know who like to walk around saying "I don't know" all the time? If you can't add, "but I'm going to try to find out" then discovering you don't know is worthless.
> 
> I think great writers, explorers, scientists, entrepreneurs and artists are examples of individuals who tap into this and their work results in the discoveries and progress we as humans have made. It is a gift and a curse that we all have the propensity to have but most of us lack the fortitude and courage to pursue.


:iagree:


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