# what's the best way: differences in financial power



## Colt_blue (Apr 4, 2017)

Dear all,

I am not married yet, but I will be in three months and we live together and prepare for the wedding. Everything is set. For now, our finances are separate. We live in my house with my son and his two dogs. He doesn't have children. He also has a house he keeps and we will move into his house in a few years, after my son graduates high school. His house is mid-way between our jobs, now he has a longer commute. That's just as a little background. Second marriage for both of us.

Now, I make good money, low six figures, but he makes between 3 and 5 times as much as I do, depending on the year (he owns a business). He's a handy person and he's the type of man who always likes to have projects around the house. Well, he moved into my house and he started to have projects. I didn't contradict him, those projects were good ideas and I know it makes him happy to do such things. He built a sunroom and paid for it. Now he proposed to paint the house in the interior, because it hasn't been painted in 12 years. I said OK. It wasn't discussed who pays for it.

I make good money, but I just recently paid off a credit card debt that I was carrying around for about 13 years, and I was trying to build up some savings. I'm happy to be debt free and have excellent credit. Also, I do not make any income in the month of July, and for june and August I only make half of my usual take home pay. So I'm trying to save. Also, my family is coming over from overseas and the custom is that I will have to pay for all of their maintanance here. I want to cover a few things for the wedding also, although he'll pay for most of it, at least I'd like to cover flowers, photography etc. and he can pay for the venue/food. My family come for the wedding but stay a few weeks, which means I'll need to feed them for that long. I also have to pay about 1000 for my son's camp. So there are expenses going ahead and honestly, I only have 12K saved right now in my account to pay for everything. I'll save some more May 1st from my paycheck but after that I won't get a full paycheck until September 1st.

My question is, how should I handle paying for the painting? He will pay for it if I don't offer, but I feel guilty/obligated to pay for it. Normally, I wouldn't have painted this year, I would have waited one or two years to build up some savings after paying down the debt. Should I pay for it and if later I'm left without funds to cover my summer expenses, I can ask him for help? I don't want to go into debt again. I have had to go into debt before in the summers due to home improvements, things breaking down, family visiting, childcare as single mom, plane tickets for son/family etc. I struggled to pay down everything so I can marry debt free. So should I pay the few thousands for painting or let him pay?

Right now, we have separate accounts and I pay everything in my house plus groceries, and he pays when we go out to eat and pays for his house. We discussed finances after marriage and initially he proposed to put all the money together. I asked if it's better to keep some together and some separate so there is no conflict about certain purchases or gifts, and he said no, we won't fight about expenses, let's keep it together. We discussed this twice or three times and he maintained the same idea. I was honestly happy he trusts me that way.

Now, yesterday, I was talking about budgeting and he said yeah, you can put my stuff and your stuff in mint and make a budget. So I asked so aren't we going to pool our finances like we discussed. He backpeddaled. He said that well, maybe we just make a new account jointly and we put 80% of our paycheck and keep 20% in separate accounts. That was my initial proposal that he said neah to, no need for that. But during the conversation he also confused me further with mentioning, or you can ask me for what money you want and I'll transfer it to you (implying separate accounts?). I said I really don't want separate accounts and to have to ask for money, it stresses me out. The 80/20 idea is good. But the fact that he now backpeddaled on his initial idea (not mine) to pool everything in one, makes me even more insecure about what he thinks about me maybe not paying enough for these home improvements or I don't know, maybe I did something to make him think I'm after money. I don't think I did anything, but there is a difference in our incomes and I can't afford certain things at the drop of a hat, I need to plan and save for them, I don't have the cash to drop on stuff immediately. 

He also proposed a trip for us in the spring break and I dropped some cash unplanned on plane tickets. I think it's a matter of having different incomes and affording different things. So he says it doesn't matter who pays and he's happy to cover things, but then I feel bad to have him cover things and I feel hurt that he may think me as not paying enough or caring to use his money or something. 

I don't even know what I'm saying, I'm just feeling a bit hurt about the backpedaling and confused about how to handle the pay for the painting (offer or not, since I don't really think I can afford to pay, without having to put credit card debt in July), my expenses ahead and communicating to him that it's not that I want his money or don't want to pay for things, I just can't afford things that aren't budgeted ahead.

Thanks a lot for the help!


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

He loves you a lot. Great! You seem so lucky [so far, so good]------> He sounds pretty good.

That said, he is a businessman. And you aren't married yet.

His income is tied to his business? He likely needs to have some set aside for it. Not all of it is [likely] disposable income. 

What are his expenses, his debts, what does he do for a living? Does he tie up money in inventory? Is he saving for the future also?

Is his business cyclical? Is it subject to the general economy? Has he had bad years, financially? Gone bankrupt?

Are you sure he makes that much money. Until you do taxes together you really do not know. Is he secretive about his finances?

What happened to his first marriage?

These questions may not be an issue at all, but pay attention.

I am sure he has butterflys concerning the future, also. This is a big undertaking for him. 

He is banking on you as much as you are on him. He is betting the bank on you. Are you a reliable person? Can you be trusted? Does he have doubts about you?

What is your past? Does your past give him "any" pause for a good future with you?


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

Colt_blue said:


> Dear all,
> 
> I am not married yet, but I will be in three months and we live together and prepare for the wedding. Everything is set. For now, our finances are separate. We live in my house with my son and his two dogs. He doesn't have children. He also has a house he keeps and we will move into his house in a few years, after my son graduates high school. His house is mid-way between our jobs, now he has a longer commute. That's just as a little background. Second marriage for both of us.
> 
> ...


I know how he feels.In my relationship I earn many multiples of what my gf earned when she worked.She has just had a baby So isn't working right now.I Always try to pay for everything but every so often I get the feeling I'm not taking her feelings into account and I let her pay for something or other but then I feel terrible because she doesn't have much money.You need to get things out in the open so arrange a time when you both can have a chat about finances.To be honest I think he is just trying not to hurt your feelings and will be happy whatever you decide.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Well, open communication is a requirement for a healthy relationship and marriage. Discuss the issues with him, and also discuss how you will handle finances once you're married. He knows - or should learn - that you are low on liquid funds and will be for a while. Acknowledge his generous offer to paint the house, and tell him that you wish you could pay for it, but can't. If that changes his decision, then that's okay, but the main thing is establishing - and then maintaining - clear communication.

Ideally, marriage is a merger, not an acquisition! The 80/20 plan sounds good for now, too. But, you may also want to think about a prenup if either or both of you own your own businesses - they (and existing assets) should be exempt from consideration if you ever do split up. Eventually, you may decide to merge things further if things continue to look good for the relationship based on experience.


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## Colt_blue (Apr 4, 2017)

SunCMars said:


> He loves you a lot. Great! You seem so lucky [so far, so good]------> He sounds pretty good.
> 
> That said, he is a businessman. And you aren't married yet.
> 
> ...


His business is in the health sector and is doing well, although he's not exactly a millionaire or anything. Mid, sometimes higher six figures. Some of the income is in the businness but i"m not understanding things very well. I don't think he has reason to doubt me based on my past. I was married before, I was the breadwinner in my first marriage, my ex walked on his family because he felt he needed to make it on his own and felt insecure about my better career success. He also chose to cheat to help with his self-esteem. I waived child support in the divorce. Instead, I told my ex to support his son as much as he can when he can. He started to, a few years after the divorce, at about half of what court mandated child support would have been. He never visits, lives away. We are good, we didn't even have lawyers for our divorce, we agreed on everything. 

My fiancee's first wife never worked, although they didn't have kids together and took him to the cleaners in the divorce. He lost a lot, he's still paying her about 5000/month because she was entitled to half of his business. I offered about 5 times to sign a prenup and he doesn't want it. Marriage ended because they grew apart he said. She was depressed, lay in bed all day and they ended up with separate bedrooms and not speaking. I think the fact that she had no ambitions of her own and he advanced in his career while she was laying around and they didn't even have kids to tie them to a common goal just made them drift apart. He lost 60% of his retirement to her. Now he puts a lot in his retirement account.

My question is about the painting. Should I offer to pay for it? Also, why would he backpeddal on the pooling of the paychecks? But you can't help me as to why. Maybe you can tell me if I should offer to pay for the painting, a couple of thousands or so it'll be (he hired someone), given I can't really afford it, or just let him pay. Wouldn't let him pay make him think I"m not pulling my weight?


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## Colt_blue (Apr 4, 2017)

Married but Happy said:


> Well, open communication is a requirement for a healthy relationship and marriage. Discuss the issues with him, and also discuss how you will handle finances once you're married. He knows - or should learn - that you are low on liquid funds and will be for a while. Acknowledge his generous offer to paint the house, and tell him that you wish you could pay for it, but can't. If that changes his decision, then that's okay, but the main thing is establishing - and then maintaining - clear communication.
> 
> Ideally, marriage is a merger, not an acquisition! The 80/20 plan sounds good for now, too. But, you may also want to think about a prenup if either or both of you own your own businesses - they (and existing assets) should be exempt from consideration if you ever do split up. Eventually, you may decide to merge things further if things continue to look good for the relationship based on experience.


We did discuss things many times and I brought up a prenup 5 times. He has assets to protect, more than me. I think I'll just tell him how I feel about the painting, I can either pay now and go to him for help if that means that in July I'll be strapped for cash, or he can pay now. And see what he says.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

There are lots of possible arrangements, but the one I like best:

Each of you can set aside some part of your current assets to keep separate in the case of divorce.

Then combine the remaining assets and all of your incomes. Set aside a "fun" budget that is the same for both of you. Each gets to buy anything they want out of that. Expenses that benefit both of you come from the combined money. 

This is what my wife and I have done and it has worked very well for 30 years as first her income was much higher (I was in school), then mine became much higher, then she inherited a lot of money. There was never a feeling of things being unfair because we put in equal effort on our jobs even though the pay was sometimes quite different.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

He wants it painted, right? He asked for this.

He asked, Therefore, he pays. Maybe, he wants the house to look good for the wedding. 

You said that after you marry, you will move in with him at his house. In a few years.

When you move to his house, you will sell yours, I presume? The paint will help the resale value. It is not money wasted. 

Let him pay. Tell him about the resale value. Tell him that you cannot afford to pay for it. 

Does he presently rent out his place? He can afford to pay for it. Just thank him a few times. That is enough. Let him know that you appreciate his support.

I think he knows this. You may be too proud. This man is going to be your husband. Let him play the role. It will make him feel good.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

A word of caution here. My marriage plans started much the same are you say, everything was going good and then she started to back peddle from some of the things she said she would do in the beginning and then after we got married she hit me with some major back peddling on major items we agreed to. It seems he may do the same. 

I'm also not convinced he says he has as much money as he says he has. He was hit with a major divorce settlement. Many times the courts give the wife 60 to 70% of everything especially when the wife makes no money on her own, which is the case here. Even if he makes 300K he'll only keep perhaps only 90K, so you may be contributing more than him. Maybe he doesn't want you to know that until it's too late. I also think that's the reason for the back peddling and not using a shared pool for everything, he can use the 20% as part of what he has to give her. Maybe he thinks you'll freak out once you know how much he has to pay.


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## stixx (Mar 20, 2017)

Let's see

Second marriage for both, with prior children from your first marriage--> only 1 out of 3 marriages survive with this situation.

Add to it that he's already backpeddling on the financial agreement.

Add to that that you can't even TALK to him about something as simple as finances.

Odds of this one going the distance are about 10/1. Against.


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## Colt_blue (Apr 4, 2017)

Dear all thank you very much for all the insightful replies. Really helpful. 

Special thanks to SunCMars , you nailed it, it's my pride here. I don't want not to pull my weight or for him to think I'm not. It's hard for me to receive since all my life I was on my own, even in my first relationship, lasting a total of 19 years, I felt I was completely in my own. He doesn't rent his home now. He doesn't have a mortgage though and we use it occasionally, especially summers but also go there sometimes during the year . We have projects going on there too. And yes he wants things to look good at the wedding when people will visit both places . And yes I will sell my house . After my son graduates college , in 7 years. We live in a college town and son will stay in it during his studies . Saves other living arrangements and he can get a roommate to get some rent .

Jb thanks you made me think. In fact I'm glad you pointed out how your wife back pedaled . It made me remember history and yeah my fiancée back pedals more often than he should . He is a wonderful man and very loving and supportive and often he enthusiastically says something because he wants to be liked or is excited about something and later sometimes realizes it's not so practical. I think that's what happened here. Not that he thinks I'm not pulling my weight like I worried. 

The 80/20 idea is something I like and I proposed it first. I didn't propose the percentages I just said we should do a three account model to minimize conflict. It's better because of my son. Maybe I want to give him more money to spend when he's in college etc and not having to get approval would help harmony. They like and care about each other but anyway I'm a mom and surely want to coddle more.

A note on communication. Of course I can talk to him and I will . But I want to clarify my thoughts first instead of being reactive . I initiate most talks about serious issues which is pretty standard as far as female/male behaviors but we always discussed things. We've been together 3 years .

Statistics are more complicated and you have to take into account demographics too so I'm optimistic about your chances , last poster. I love him a lot and we are pretty wise . They're is just one kid and we have postgraduate degrees. Divorce statistics are lower for us than average but we are not statistics anyway. Son and Th like each other


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

Colt_blue said:


> Right now, we have separate accounts and I pay everything in my house plus groceries, and he pays when we go out to eat and pays for his house.


Do you chew his damned food for him too?

You BOTH have mortgage payments so you both should make them.

Any OTHER current household expenses - food, electric, cable, hot water - should be HIS *equal* responsibility. Why the hell are you supporting someone who makes 5 times your salary? He's a complete ass for taking advantage of it, too.

So big deal, he springs for an occasional dinner out? Big whoop.

Let HIM pay for the paint. He's been getting a damned bargain at your place.


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## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

There's no right or wrong way to do finances. If you are feeling insecure about the painting, then just talk with him about and it share that feeling to see what his thoughts are. Based on the differences in salaries, any combination that you two do will benefit you significantly. I wouldn't worry about the backpedaling since you didn't yet reach a solid agreement. It just means that there is more discussion to be completed before you two decide what you want to do. 

My personal thought on how to do finances is combine the money, pay all the bills, and then split the leftovers into individual accounts. However, that would work best if there was more parity in your incomes. Since there isn't maybe you can split the leftovers proportionately.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> Do you chew his damned food for him too?
> 
> You BOTH have mortgage payments so you both should make them.
> 
> ...


:iagree:

You can't afford it right now. That's nothing to be ashamed of- you have a child you're fully supporting. IMO, you let men take advantage of you. Your first husband does nothing to help with your shared child. This one is living in your home and is already back peddling on what is VERY normal to expect in marriage- shared finances. 

Please set a higher bar for this marriage. Don't even think about taking on more debt to appease your fiancé. In fact, I'd let him pay for the entire wedding. He makes more $$ than you and you have a dependent child to support. Your child's security (and yours) come first.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Have the two of you let each other look at your accounts, assets, liabilities and credit reports?

There might be a good reason that he does not want a prenup.. he might not have the assets/money is claims to have. I've seen this happen before.

I would never marry anyone again without both of us making full financial disclosure. Once you are married, regardless of how you two structure your finances between the two of you there things that supersede your own agreements...... laws. For example in a lot of states, once married both spouses are responsible for any debt one of them makes. That is even if the debt is only in one person's name. 

About the painting of the room/house. I'd tell him that since he is not paying for normal expenses while living at the house, he can paint if he wants to buy the paint. And I'd make sure that he knows that you cannot afford to contribute to the paint.

Why are you allowing him to live with you while you pay all the bills? This makes no sense. Have you two talked about this? When is he going to start supporting himself and not letting you, who earns much less than he, support him?


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

Yeah, I'd be concerned about him not wanting a prenup as well. It requires full financial disclosure. 

I've known men who are perfectly happy to pool resources and money but I've seen this desire decrease proportionately as their income increases.

Personally, I wouldn't pool our money, even though my husband was ok with it. He makes about 1/3rd more than I do. It was more about feeling like I contribute to the household and relationship. We have a joint account for paying bills, then split expenses between us for other things like groceries. 

My husband is also into DIY and has no end of projects, but he always uses his money to pay for his ideas. I am having a planting bed put on the side of the house and I'm paying for it since it's what I want.

Oh, and we have a prenup.


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## Colt_blue (Apr 4, 2017)

Thank you all again for the additional input.

To address some points you raised, not sure if I remember all, I'll say a few things.

We talked about the painting I told him how I felt and he reassured me. I am not contributing to it and with your help I also don't feel guilty about it anymore. Writing about it and hearing opinions put things in perspective and helped me with the guilty feelings.

Some of you raised the issue of him not contributing enough to the household at the present time. I do agree and indeed that was another issue that I struggled with after we moved in together. We moved in and I was waiting for him to raise the issue of contributions and he said nothing, we just sort of fell into a routine with the paying when we go out and the occasional something picked up at the store. I thought about it a lot at the time, and given that he was putting so much into my house, paying for the bulk of the wedding, and buying a very expensive honeymoon (cruise in Hawaii in a large suite, plus three days on Oahu before the cruise and flying us first class) and that we weren't going to live together before marriage even one year, I decided to let that go until we do get married. 

I also took into account that everything will be shared at that time as it was agreed so it will be a wash. I decided that he'll live with me for about 10 months before marriage, he increased his commute by 45 minutes each day (before it was between 30 min and 1h depending on location), he is still keeping his house and paying for it, so there is no point in arguing about a few hundred dollars a month that he should be giving me, especially since I can afford the day to day costs, while I can't afford a lot of extras (home improvements and vacations) until I built my savings up. Instead, we go out at least 2x/week, and I have him sometimes pick stuff up from Sam's club and whatnot, although not the bulk of the groceries. I said that'll do for now and after marriage we'll combine assets. 

But some of you raising this issue again made me feel less guilty about the painting and all. The painting and everything else was one of the reason I decided it would be petty to ask for more contribution to the household, so it does fall into his dues so to speak, and I shouldn't feel guilty about it. Also, due to writing here, I'll hold back on guilt paying some of the wedding expenses that he already agreed to pay fully for. It's part of the arrangement with me paying for the living expenses before marriage, he said he'll pay, and I'll let him pay. Although it will be hard, I will feel guilty about it.

Now, another point that was raised was financial disclosure. Yes, I've seen his accounts and he's seen mine. We have also been to a financial adviser together and we have another appointment in May. I know his liabilities and credit score and he knows mine. His biggest liability is his ex-wife, he still owes her 4500/month for the next 6-7 years. I think him not wanting a prenup was part of his gushy/romantic I don't need a prenup, and we'll share everything phase. Maybe he'll ask for one before July, I don't know. I'm not going to offer again though I did offer 5 times, I think that was enough he knows I am willing to sign it.

I'm happy with the 80/20 arrangement. We will open a joint bank account and we will each transfer 80% of our income into it monthly and we will keep 20%. That will work great for me, since I want to keep something for my son for the future as to avoid disagreements/conflicts. I know I will want to give my son more than a step parent would think reasonable. My culture is like that (I'm not American born). My issue was his backpedalling and feeling guilty about him paying so much at the house, and feeling that I did something "wrong" to deserve loss of trust. 

I do think it was just that he was gushy before and he just backpedalled to reality and not that I did something wrong. But he does tend to backpedal, jump to offer stuff and then become reluctant, especially when money is involved. It happened before when I bought my car for example and with other small things. i was in the market for a new car, mine was a very old chevy cavalier, and I wanted to buy a sedan 1-2 years old, since I said I won't buy new because it depreciates and I want to keep my car payment low. We went to look at cars and he fell in love with a new Nissan Murano. I loved it too, but I couldn't afford the payment for such a car, and a new one. He said I'm over 40 and I should buy a nice car and he'll put 5000 towards my down payment. I agreed, he put 5000, I put 6000 and thus my monthly payment is manageable, and the loan is at 0%. But after he promised he seemed reluctant to write the check and I worried a bit that he's not coming through. I didn't let him backpedal then though. But yeah, maybe he did feel he spent too much on the renovations and such, but oh well maybe he shouldn't promise and take on stuff. 

So on my side, all is good. I'm fine with things and will have to be careful how we start with the accounts so nobody backpedals on this arrangement. We will have more conversations.

Thanks again, everyone!


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## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

You earn low-100s. You are debt-free, which means no mortgage. You own a house outright. If you're in the US, your own earnings are way more than needed for even a fairly luxurious lifestyle. How much does it cost to paint the interior of a house? Back when I had a 4,000 square foot house, I did it myself. Took me 3 days and 20 gallons of paint. Based on today's labor rates and using very high quality paint, this would be about a $1500 job. Pennies on your kind of income.

So, it's not about the money, is it? It's about control. Just because the projects he chooses makes sense does not mean he should do them without consulting with you. A relationship, even before marriage, should be about making decisions together.

What do you think of trying this:
"Darling, I need to talk about how we make decisions about things to buy and do. I agree that the house painting would make the house look better. I actually thought about that earlier. At that time, I decided it was not something I wanted to do just now. Then I met you. And now you want to do the painting. My earlier decision has not changed. If I were to make the decision, I would say "not now". If you want to do it now, then by all means, go ahead, but since it's your decision, I think you should pay for it."

Which should be followed, fairly soon, by "Would you like to talk about what significant spending we think we'll need in the next year and decide who should pay for what?"


As to his business - I expect his communications with you has not been clear. Not because he intends to deceive, but perhaps he's spoken of two different cash flows, and you haven't fully understood the distinction.

In a business, there is "Revenue", which means all the money that comes in from customers. A business has expenses, which are subtracted. If his business brings in $500,000 from customers, and his business spends $400,000 on building, supplies, salaries, then the business' "net profit" is $100,000. And that's the business profit, not his. From his business, he would pay himself something. That something is his personal income and is personally taxable. In the US, a business grossing (gross is another word for "Revenue", or more correctly, they're both shorthand for "Gross Revenue") only a half million a year rarely pays any profit tax, because at that level, most businesses don't have much profit.

Since you said his $5k/year to the wife is half the business, that suggests that his actual income from the business is more like $120k...not 3x to 5x your income. Your financial advisor may be able to make this more clear.

For the future, I see two possible paths:

1) If he is willing to become a collaborator on decision-making, then pooling paychecks, having a common checking account, and checking in with each other regularly would be my preference.

or

2) If he feels his male power impeded by your desire to participate in decisions, then I'd recommend you keep separate accounts for your own money, and create a third joint account. You agree to put the same amount of money per month into it (or a weighted amount - if his "net" income really is 3X yours, then he puts in 3X...if you want it that way). From this joint account will come any project spending on either house...or other joint projects. If there's money in the account at year-end you either distribute it back to the two of you or transfer into an investment/retirement vehicle. You both agree to have a minimum $ amount in the account at all times, and make it big, so that if both of you spend something the same month, you're unlikely to drain the account.


Don't mean to be critical on this one, but - how's your own money control? If you earn over $100k and have no debt, then the fact that your income is low during the summer seems like it should not be a hardship. Your monthly net should be approx $5500 - more in the big months, less in the small months. After paying for food, utilities, car insurance, home insurance, how can you not have most of that left over? So, given this, why do the lean summer months pose a challenge? Don't you have enough left over from the lush months? I've done financial counseling, this would be a question you can expect from any counselor. Consider that your ability to answer this question might bear on whether he feels you make good financial decisions - exactly the same question you have about him.

Good luck.

DD


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## Colt_blue (Apr 4, 2017)

DustyDog said:


> You earn low-100s. You are debt-free, which means no mortgage. You own a house outright. If you're in the US, your own earnings are way more than needed for even a fairly luxurious lifestyle. How much does it cost to paint the interior of a house? Back when I had a 4,000 square foot house, I did it myself. Took me 3 days and 20 gallons of paint. Based on today's labor rates and using very high quality paint, this would be about a $1500 job. Pennies on your kind of income.
> 
> So, it's not about the money, is it? It's about control. Just because the projects he chooses makes sense does not mean he should do them without consulting with you. A relationship, even before marriage, should be about making decisions together.
> 
> ...


Dear DD,
Thank you very much for all the time you put into helping me with these uncertainties.

Well, I would like to make a few clarfiications to what you said:

1. I am not "debt free". I am free of credit card debt. I have a mortgage that is about 1700/month and a car payment 525/month. I contribute 500/month to my son's college account and the utilities and other fixed bills are about 1000/month. The rest is food, other expenses, gas etc. And a little in savings. I can afford to live on my income and save a little if I am not to buy big things, it's pretty comfortable, but I cannot afford big ticket items. And this is how I got into debt previously, by putting tile down, or buying plane tickets for my parents to visit from overseas etc. I don't want to do that. I am not a saver indeed. I live comfortably. I don't skip on heating, electricity, I do have cable, I pay true green, I have a cleaning lady and someone who cuts my grass. So yeah, there are things where I could cut down, but sure, I didn't want to cut down. If I have a couple of years of no: airplane tickets, hotels and other things like that I can save something and feel better/safer. But it seems it's always something because we get married this year and we do so many things to the house(s) that I don't get a break to build up savings.

2. I ended up paying for half of the painting, it wasn't very expensive. It was 2500 not 1500 and even 1500 is not pennies to me.

3. I don't always make any income, or limited income over the summer and I have to always worry about saving for the summer so even if it appears there are money in savings sometimes, there are not because these are money I need to live on over the summer.

4. FH doesn't pay 5000/year to the ex-wife, he pays 5000/month.

Other than that, great suggestions to sit down and figure these things out. He's not good at communication it's really hard to make him talk without being closed off or defensive and thinking I'm accusing him of something. So I'm going to go to a therapist soon to best figure out how to start these conversations and have a meeting with the financial adviser and the FH next week Friday. Things will be worked out but it's a sensitive topic. I don't want to appear like I ask for more money because I have ulterior motives, I want him to understand the entire financial picture and agree on something that we are both comfortable with moving ahead. At this time I envision a discussion with the pen and paper and calculations becuase there are more big tickets coming ahead and even last night I was again uncomfortable about something we bought and I paid for, but I cannot personally afford that alone if it's not to get things on credit cards again. So I either pay for these things and he needs to fully support me in the summer because I'll deplete my savings, or we need to have an understanding that there is not much left over after my paycheck is used for mortagege, utilities, car payment, and food and other stuff for the family. There is a little bit left, the keyword being a little bit. So I think he needs to be aware of numbers. He's seen them but not added up or say broken down.

Sure, I can make the budget leaner. I can fire the cleaning lady, the grass people (someone needs to cut it), the cable, true green. If he wants me to cut those, I can cut them but he needs to pitch in (and my son) with the work. He needs to fertilize the lawn and either him or my son need to cut the grass and they need to help me clean the house. We can do that if that's a decision he wants to make. I can cut the cable and stay with netflix. This can be agreed on. But as it is right now, I can't afford to build additions, or pay for trips, period. Even if I make the budget leaner, it'll take a couple of years to view results. It's a lifestyle difference. When he'll suggest trips I'll need to either pitch in or say no to the trip. Right now, I can't pay and that's how it is.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

Colt_blue said:


> Dear DD,
> Thank you very much for all the time you put into helping me with these uncertainties.
> 
> Well, I would like to make a few clarfiications to what you said:
> ...


So He didn't pay for the painting in the end,did he eventually give you the five grand for the car down payment.This backtracking is worrying and it seems you end up virtually broke at the end of each month while he is getting a great deal including free house while he still owns his own one.Why can he not rent his house and use some of the income on the day to day running expenses of your home,gardener,cleaner etc.
Make sure he actually pays for the wedding and honeymoon don't just take his word.I'm not trying to suggest he is trying to pull the wool over your eyes but you can't be too careful.


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## Colt_blue (Apr 4, 2017)

He did pay the 5000 but I had to push, yeah.


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## Colt_blue (Apr 4, 2017)

Since I'm here, I thought I'd update this thread. 

I feel much better about things. There have been some changes. 

One day, after posting here, something happened again, which made me realize I can't go through the summer this way and I had to do something about things. It wasn't very major but it was what tipped things over and made me talk to him.

My parents are coming and we are taking them to Niagara Falls. They'll pay their way, although that's hard for them, but we needed to make reservations etc. and pay ahead and they'll give us money for their part when they come. So we were reserving hotels in Niagara and Toronto and when it was about to put in the credit card number, he asks me "do you want to put mine"? And I said "sure, yes". And he says "REALLY?". So I paid. Now, it's OK, it's my parents and all. But I paid for everyone, us, the parents, my sister... When they come they'll give me money, but I was the one to pay now. So I realized I can't do things this way, shoulder everything and be worried and take all the risk when I don't have as much in my account and I can end up putting too much on credit cards again. I didn't sleep that night and in the morning I talked to him.

I said it's a difficult subject to bring up, but with everything going on this summer, expenses and trips and me not having a full salary, I said exactly this "I will need your contribution to the household". I said "I will need you to contribute $x/month for June and July". He said oh, sure, and this is why you said you had trouble sleeping last night, you were worrying about this? Oh, that's silly, and he went and transfered the x amount to my account immediately.

We discussed again the arrangements and I said it would be better to have a joint account where we both contribute even now before marriage and when we get married, he can offer his opinion, but I suggest we deposit jointly most of our paychecks. I said you can keep everything else (which is more than 3x his paycheck-paycheck is almost equal to mine, except in the summer), and I keep a few hundreds for situations when we disagree on something I want to do. He agreed, albeit reluctantly. 

We went to the bank, and we did open a joint acount, we deposited equal amounts in it, for the month of May. Not our paychecks yet, just for expenses , day do day, no bills. I put him on my personal account too, for transparency, and he didn't put me on his, which is fine with me. 

I did go to a therapist and she said that it's normal for him to be weary given how much he lost in the divorce, to his ex, and the reputations women have and that I should be patient and wait for the trust to build up. I understand, although I don't think it's really fair to me personally. But oh well, we all have emotional baggage.

So I do feel much better about things. I am sorry that I had to ask for a contribution to the household, instead of him offering, but whatever, I do feel good now that I don't need to worry that I'll be flat broke carrying everything. With his contrbution, it just puts me in a situation where I can be comfortable and feel safe about money this summer. I envision that I may have to ask for the JUne or July contribution, which I hope I won't have to ask, but if I have to ask, I will. And we will see what happens after the wedding, if he's keeping the agreement with the paychecks. He keeps talking about having a budget but when I say do you want to do it today, now, this weekend etc., he doesn't go for it. So I'll stop nagging. I have a budget, when he's ready to do it jointly, I suppose he'll act . Proably it makes more sense to do that after the marriage if we pull all bills together from a single account.

Ayway, it just seems very uncomfortable talking about finances. He doesn't like talking about it, clearly. So I'm trying to back off, and not nag, while speaking up when I feel I must.


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## BeautyBeast (Feb 3, 2015)

Colt_blue said:


> My question is about the painting. Should I offer to pay for it?


yes you should offer
and his healthy answer would be - no honey, I will cover it


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## BeautyBeast (Feb 3, 2015)

Colt_blue said:


> Since I'm here, I thought I'd update this thread.
> 
> I put him on my personal account too, for transparency, and he didn't put me on his, which is fine with me.


should not be fine with you- you are equal partners, no matter who makes what


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I see an awful lot of red flags.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

We discussed again the arrangements and I said it would be better to have a joint account where we both contribute even now before marriage and when we get married, he can offer his opinion, but I suggest we deposit jointly most of our paychecks. I said you can keep everything else (which is more than 3x his paycheck-paycheck is almost equal to mine, except in the summer), and I keep a few hundreds for situations when we disagree on something I want to do. He agreed, albeit reluctantly. 

We went to the bank, and we did open a joint acount, we deposited equal amounts in it, for the month of May. Not our paychecks yet, just for expenses , day do day, no bills. I put him on my personal account too, for transparency, and he didn't put me on his, which is fine with me. 



Ayway, it just seems very uncomfortable talking about finances. He doesn't like talking about it, clearly. So I'm trying to back off, and not nag, while speaking up when I feel I must.


As far as I can see not much has changed.You still seem to be spending most or all of your income and he "reluctantly" puts some money in your joint account each month.He has access to your personal account but you don't have access to his.What's to stop him emptying it.Has he paid for any wedding expenses yet or will it be like the house painting when you ended up paying almost twice the original fifty percent share.
There are a lot of red flags here and his reluctance to spend money despite claiming to be wealthy is a big one.
Please take this piece of advice even if you don't take another one.Have an INDEPENDANT financial adviser go through both of you're financial records and pay particular attention to income v outgoings.You need to get statements from his bank about any loans or second mortgages leveraged against his house and you need to see proof of income for at least five years.You need credit card statements and car loan agreements etc.
If you add up everything since he moved in with you how much has this rich man actually spent in comparison to what you have spent.Under NO circumstance are you to put his name on your house deeds,ever.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I agree. I sure as hell wouldn't marry him without an accountant looking at his (and your) books first. And if he won't sit down with you with a financial advisor before marrying? 

RUN!


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

turnera said:


> I see an awful lot of red flags.


I tried to formulate a post, but I couldn't figure out where to start. Red flags for her to look for are obvious. However, I also see a couple red flags that her fiance may have noticed: Middle-aged with financial issues, but still paying for a cleaning lady. To her credit, she admittedly is not a saver, and she should be able to spend her money on whatever she wants. However, it would be a flag for me. 

Another one: asking her fiance if he would put her family's travel expenses on his credit card. (even though she is expecting her family to reimburse). If I was her fiance, I would really wonder if I really will be reimbursed.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

I couldn't imagine having to deal with this.

He acts like you're his business partner that he's constantly trying to get one over on. I just couldn't imagine being married to someone like this. Everything is a damned business transaction with this guy. I'll bet he keeps charts of who pays for what just to make sure - God forbid - he doesn't spend an extra penny that you haven't matched with your own money. 

I can hardly WAIT to see how things go if you become pregnant and - HORRORS!!!! - you decide you want to stay home with your baby for the first year or two. I can just _imagine_ how he'd constantly be letting you know what a burden you are and I'd bet good money he'd be furiously keeping a record of every single cent he spent supporting his family when you weren't working, and then present you with a bill for HALF of that amount once you return to work.

You can do MUCH better than marrying Diamond Jim Brady. Trust me, you can.


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## Colt_blue (Apr 4, 2017)

Thank you again for your opinions. From my side, I'm OK now. I'd like to make some comments.

1. I'm not a middle aged woman with financial problems. I don't have "financial problems". I have a lifestyle that is in accordance with my income and I raise a child alone. I have my own house and have good equity in it, will be done being paid in about 8 years, I have a good retirement account, I have college account fully funded, I pay my bills, I don't have any credit card debt at this time and I am trying to keep it that way. I just don't have a lot of liquid savings to pay for expensive things. In a couple of years I could save some more. But someone with my income, while living comfortably can't afford to do a lot of things at once, like several vacations, additions to home etc. I would have said I had financial problems if I couldn't pay my bills. Yes, I do have a cleaning lady and he has two dogs, if he cleans I'll fire the cleaning lady. I can pay for a cleaning lady since I"m not a stay at home wife and I don't have as much time to clean all the time. He's not paying for it. So I don't get the judgement. Not going to get on the Dave Ramsey's program right now so I can shoulder the household by myself while I have a partner who makes good money. I'm not going to say that he's rich, he just makes a very good income and he should help.

2. I don't expect him to pay for my parents trip. The fact that he said "do you want me to pay and when I said yes, he said "really?"" triggered me not because of that particular expense, but because I realized that in general, not in this particular situation, he's not willing to help on his own and it's going to be more expenses over my day to day budget that I can either pay those, or pay all of the bills in the house. It's not a regular year. and yes, I can pay for my parents trip even if they won't reimburse (they will) if he contributes to the household expenses. But if I shoulder everything, I can't possibly pay for all houshold expenses and the extras that will come with the wedding and parents visit. It's a lot of extras you need to pay for in a wedding he's going to pay for the venue/food, but there are other things , a lot of them. Parents visit happens because of the wedding not because they just visit me for fun. When they did, I took them to Michigan and I did pay for it, didn't accept their money back. but now he wanted to take them to Niagara because he likes my dad and he heard my dad say last year he wishes he saw that. He doesn't have to pay for them, just to contribute in the house. It's quite outrageous to imply that I invite my parents because I just want to and expect him to pay. If he asked, I said yes, because I didn't want to put stuff on credit card and I didn't want to put it on my checking either, if at all possible. But if it wasn't possible, ok, I paid. I just expect him to contribute the same amount as me to the household expense account. Although he makes a lot more. I don't expect, but was hoping that he'd be generous this summer and take into account that I'm low summers, and when he just pushed that I pay for the trip in advance, I realized it's going to be a lot of other things he won't jump at paying and I can't do all of that without his household contribution. So I realized he's never going to offer and I'll have to ask for what's fair. So I asked, and I am glad I did. With his contribution, then I can pay for all other stuff as long as he keeps his commitments to what he said he'll cover.

3. A few days ago he finally did deposit a large amount in the joint account. About 10X more than what we each usually contribute, and this time I didn't have to ask. He seems to need some kind of warming up to the idea of sharing his money. The discussions are ongoing and after the marriage it seems we will come to something very workable. Was it like pulling teeth? Yes. It is like pulling teeth.

4. I know he is cheap. But I will not leave him for this reason. I don't think he's dishonest, he just has a hard time parting with his money. In the end, he always comes through, but unfortunately I wish he did without being asked and pushed. I wish he was generous, but maybe he wishes I was something too that I am not. He is kind and caring, truly, he has some hang ups about money. I think we'll get along just fine, with the usual hiccups. I shouldn't have put him on my checking account, but because I put him he doesn't have to put me on his. I have a very hard time believing he'll empty my checking account and run. He's not that kind of person.

5. I won't get pregnant. I am 45 yo. Baby factory is closed. I will never leave my job and although my retirement account looks good and I could retire at the "normal" age, unless I'm sick , I plan to continue working until well into my 70s. Maybe it's too much to say that I will "never" retire, but as a professor, I can work until later, just do less research and just teach my classes when I'm older. Otherwise life would be boring. So in the future when he has a cheapness attack it's not going to be a disaster, just an annoyance like this time. I'll probably always have to push and ask but I won't be under his power or anything, that's how it is when you make your own income. Now if I have a stroke and get paralyzed...I don't know it's a scenario I hope will not happen. Otherwise I'll work.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Good to hear that he came through. I would recommend, at the very least, that you employ a therapist with whom you check in at least once a month, and let her give you some reassurance and tactics to deal with such things because what you're describing is not tenable long term without it harming your own self worth and psyche.


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