# Not sure what to do?



## lost in Iowa

Long time viewer of this site, male 53, wife 55, we have four children, one being a special needs child that still lives at home with us, other kids are married and out of the house. We have been married for 36 years, wife had an affair five years ago, pretty sure she only slept with the guy one time, went through counseling and have been trying to do my best to make my wife feel special, and show how much I love and need her. Two weeks ago, we were at the hospital waiting for the birth of our first grandson, I asked her if I could use her ipad to check my work email, I am a teacher, so I have the summer off. When I went to log into my gmail account, I saw a strange gmail account name, fancynancy, not even close to my wife's name. When we got home a couple of days later, I told her that I needed to hear her say she loved me, and had she been doing anything that I would not approve off, she went off, and we fought for a week. Things quieted down over the fourth and we fooled around fro the first time in 10 days. I kept checking her ipad, but the account name had been set back to her work email. Today, after doing some searching on her ipad, found her gmail account open, also saw that she was still logged in on her work account, I went in and reset her password on her gmail account, and it allowed my to access the fancy nancy account. I read 477 posts that I found in the account, going all the way back to May 2014, pretty sure that she had another gmail account before her current one. She has met a guy on-line. She started sending naked photos of herself to him, and he sent four to her. They met 2 hours away in April when she had to go to a meeting for a few days, according to the emails, they just talked, kissed and groped a little. The emails were clear, they did not sleep together, but my wife was more than willing. The guy is married with a family, no chance to ever get his name, he is not local, and travels a lot. I have copies of about 30 emails and photos sent they sent to each other in a secure place. Not sure what to do, I do not want a divorce, getting too old to start over, but I can not live with the current situation. I plan on asking her confronting her tomorrow when she gets home from work. She is smart enough to figure out that I hacked into her gmail account and changed the password, she will just open up a new gmail account if I do not say something. Tell me what to do.


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## Absurdist

lost in Iowa said:


> Long time viewer of this site, male 53, wife 55, we have four children, one being a special needs child that still lives at home with us, other kids are married and out of the house. We have been married for 36 years, wife had an affair five years ago, pretty sure she only slept with the guy one time, went through counseling and have been trying to do my best to make my wife feel special, and show how much I love and need her. Two weeks ago, we were at the hospital waiting for the birth of our first grandson, I asked her if I could use her ipad to check my work email, I am a teacher, so I have the summer off. When I went to log into my gmail account, I saw a strange gmail account name, fancynancyfield, not even close to my wife's name. When we got home a couple of days later, I told her that I needed to hear her say she loved me, and had she been doing anything that I would not approve off, she went off, and we fought for a week. Things quieted down over the fourth and we fooled around fro the first time in 10 days. I kept checking her ipad, but the account name had been set back to her work email. Today, after doing some searching on her ipad, found her gmail account open, also saw that she was still logged in on her work account, I went in and reset her password on her gmail account, and it allowed my to access the fancy nancy account. I read 477 posts that I found in the account, going all the way back to May 2014, pretty sure that she had another gmail account before her current one. She has met a guy on-line. She started sending naked photos of herself to him, and he sent four to her. They met 2 hours away in April when she had to go to a meeting for a few days, according to the emails, they just talked, kissed and groped a little. The emails were clear, they did not sleep together, but my wife was more than willing. The guy is married with a family, no chance to ever get his name, he is not local, and travels a lot. I have copies of about 30 emails and photos sent they sent to each other in a secure place. Not sure what to do, I do not want a divorce, getting too old to start over, but I can not live with the current situation. I plan on asking her confronting her tomorrow when she gets home from work. She is smart enough to figure out that I hacked into her gmail account and changed the password, she will just open up a new gmail account if I do not say something. Tell me what to do.


So she had an affair five years ago and you have just found a second (that you know of... there could be more). Thus by definition she is a serial cheater. Conventional wisdom says file for divorce.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rugs

A lot of us are starting over in our 50's. You can have plenty of good years left with someone who respects and loves you. OR alone. 

I don't see too much hope with a serial cheater to be faithful to you. Get tested for STD's soon.


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## turnera

Print out the proof, save a copy somewhere else. Make sure you bank accounts are set so that she can't take real money out without your signature. See a lawyer to know your rights so you'll know what you're talking about when you confront her. 

When you do, you'll tell her you know about it, and you expect her to stop. You expect her to give you access to her electronics. You expect her to send him a No Contact letter and never contact him again. You expect her to go to therapy with you. And you expect her to commit to the marriage.

And when she tells you she won't, that you can't tell her what to do, you calmly reply 'that's what I expected you to say. My lawyer is waiting to hear from me.' 

You get up and leave the room. Then you go someplace else, sit down, and call her parents, her siblings, her best friend, and her pastor if she has one. You tell them that she is cheating on you - AGAIN - and that you're making plans to divorce her, unless they can talk some sense into her.

Then you either go back home and sit and wait for the sh*tstorm, and wait it out and just keep repeating that you WILL be divorcing unless she accepts your conditions for keeping her in your life - or else you go stay somewhere for a few days, incommunicado, to REALLY freak her out. And then have that conversation a when you get back.

You only get one chance to do this right. A cheater MUST have consequences, to 'learn' not to do it again. Sounds like she never got any the first time around. So she needs to see that you are a ROCK this time. She gets ONE chance, and NO time to think about it, she either gives it all up or she loses you immediately.

That is how you stop a cheater. NO mercy, not at first, not until she agrees to give up the cheating. Women HAVE to see a strong man who won't put up with her crap. Please trust us on this. If you don't show strength immediately, you will lose your one chance to turn this around.


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## dental

Why ask questions that you already know the answers to? Game over! You're never to old to get your dignity back.


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## MattMatt

You know the recovery you went through all the promises you and she made to each other? 

I am sorry to be the one to tell you this but your wife LIED to you.

You need to protect yourself from the creature who is masquerading as your wife. 

Seek legal advice get tested for STDS.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Sports Fan

So your wife had an affair five years ago and your the one that has been trying to make her feel special and wanted?

You offered up no consequences the first time round so your wife thinks it is ok to do it again.

You ask what to do it should be pretty simple.

1) Clear out any joint accounts immediatelyand transfer money into your own personal accounts. If she has access to any of your credit cards cancel her one.

2) You find out anything you can about the other man and you expose to his wife, including your wifes immediate family.

3) You see a lwayer find out your rights and file for divorce. Only by your wife realising you will no longer be fuc...ked with and that her cosy little world is about to be destroyed will you have any chance of reconciliation. 

Why you would want to reconcile the second time round i cant understand however thats your choice.

Sorry to come accross harsh but believe me most here have been through this and no spouse has ever been niced out of this type of behavour.

Man up

Sorry


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## aine

Your wife has no respect for you. If you rug sweep this one then it will not get any better. Do you want to live the rest of your life being second fiddle to other men and not receiving the love and affection of your wife (she'll be giving it to someone else)? That is no way to live. If you don't play hardball with her now, she will not change. There is a chance that if you do take her to task and do all the things people talk about here she will be willing to work on the marriage and do all the work. She knows you are a sucker and she is taking advantage of it. Women no matter how educated or independent like strong men who are willing to take charge. You have not been doing this in your marriage. 

In other words you have to be willing to lose the marriage to save it.

Therefore confront her with the evidence, tell her you want her to move out, expose what she has done to your grown up kids, family, friends etc. Do the 180 on her and get some balance and control back into your life. Do things for you, take up a new hobby, the gym or whatever you like. Show her that life without her can be equally good and you are not going to settle for seconds. If she wants to join you great, if not, her loss.

Posters here have also offered practical advice re money, lawyers, get all your ducks in a row as you do not know how she will react.


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## autopilot

lost in Iowa said:


> I do not want a divorce, getting too old to start over, but I can not live with the current situation. I plan on asking her confronting her tomorrow when she gets home from work. She is smart enough to figure out that I hacked into her gmail account and changed the password, she will just open up a new gmail account if I do not say something. Tell me what to do.


You have basically told yourself what to do. You cannot live with the current situation (and shouldn't). Confrontation is the only thing that MIGHT put a stop to it.

You have to show her that you have dignity and respect yourself too much to allow this to continue. She doesn't respect you or care about your dignity or she wouldn't have become the serial cheater that you have revealed her to be.

Nothing less than a full-force confrontation with the evidence you have. Don't say anything that you aren't willing to carry out. If you say something and then back down, she will perceive you as one with no "cajones" (she already does and you have to show her otherwise). No "I'm sorry", "help me make sense of this", "what can I do to make you love me". None of that crap. You have to be forceful with your intentions with her.

She has to change her life completely and you should accept nothing less than that immediately. If she argues or throws a fit, just turn and walk out. Own your self-respect and be willing to get out of this relationship if she continues down this path.


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## Wolfman1968

lost in Iowa said:


> Long time viewer of this site, male 53, wife 55, we have four children, one being a special needs child that still lives at home with us, other kids are married and out of the house. We have been married for 36 years, wife had an affair five years ago, pretty sure she only slept with the guy one time, went through counseling and have been trying to do my best to make my wife feel special, and show how much I love and need her. Two weeks ago, we were at the hospital waiting for the birth of our first grandson, I asked her if I could use her ipad to check my work email, I am a teacher, so I have the summer off. When I went to log into my gmail account, I saw a strange gmail account name, fancynancyfield, not even close to my wife's name. When we got home a couple of days later, I told her that I needed to hear her say she loved me, and had she been doing anything that I would not approve off, she went off, and we fought for a week. Things quieted down over the fourth and we fooled around fro the first time in 10 days. I kept checking her ipad, but the account name had been set back to her work email. Today, after doing some searching on her ipad, found her gmail account open, also saw that she was still logged in on her work account, I went in and reset her password on her gmail account, and it allowed my to access the fancy nancy account. I read 477 posts that I found in the account, going all the way back to May 2014, pretty sure that she had another gmail account before her current one. She has met a guy on-line. She started sending naked photos of herself to him, and he sent four to her. They met 2 hours away in April when she had to go to a meeting for a few days, according to the emails, they just talked, kissed and groped a little. The emails were clear, they did not sleep together, but my wife was more than willing. The guy is married with a family, no chance to ever get his name, he is not local, and travels a lot. I have copies of about 30 emails and photos sent they sent to each other in a secure place. Not sure what to do, I do not want a divorce, getting too old to start over, but I can not live with the current situation. I plan on asking her confronting her tomorrow when she gets home from work. She is smart enough to figure out that I hacked into her gmail account and changed the password, she will just open up a new gmail account if I do not say something. *Tell me what to do.*


FILE. FOR. DIVORCE.

She had an affair before, 5 years ago. She had her one chance at reconciliation. She blew it. Don't give her another.

How do your REALLY know there haven't been more affairs between 5 years ago and now. Or even before 5 years ago?

Confrontation is fine, but usually the object is to end the affair. I'd be past that now. Just file. Whether the affair ends or not, just file.


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## happy as a clam

Forget about "starting over". Rather, you need to find your dignity and "move on".

File for divorce. Her actions are egregious.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lostinthought61

I would make a copy of everything and expose it to the family this way she can not try to deny it, can not try to rug sweep like the last time...but hear me out whether you divorce or not your marriage has changed...you are living with a lying cheat...and if she is not into this marriage you can fool your self you are but your not. Like you said she will not stop....work on you.


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## SecondTime'Round

The fact that she met this man online suggests that she actively sought out an affair partner. It's not like she developed feelings by "accident" with a work partner, etc. 

She needs to be exposed.


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## jsmart

I've read of so many women with special needs children having affairs. Loveshack's OW section is full of them. 

You need to have her served, expose to family & friends, and implement the 180 to start detaching. The reason you're talking about not wanting to start over is because you have no confidence. If you did, there is no way you would stay with a serial cheater. 

You've been with wife for so many years that it will not be easy to detach but you can and must. Start working on improving yourself ie: gym, clothes, hairstyle, hygiene. After you've spent several months improving yourself, you'll been in a better frame of mind to decide if you want to have a relationship with her. You will be surprised at the kind of woman a 51 year old who has his $hit together can pull.


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## lost in Iowa

Thanks for all the advise, was lying in bed until 1:30 last night, could hear the ww snoring away, so I got up. She asked what was wrong, and I told her its you, and went down stairs. She followed, and I told her everything I had found, we talked until 4:15, no yelling, not because I did not want too, but the oldest son was upstairs, working in the area, so he spent the night I asked her why she did what she did, and her response was she is lonely and we have nothing in common. She tried to say she was just emailing a friend, so I told her that is funny, I do not get or send naked pictures to my friends. She asked me what I wanted her to do, and I told her, I do not know. I said I am not willing to share her, even with a guy, 900 miles away. I got the feeling she wants for me to be the bad guy and tell her to leave. She was remorseful, but only for hurting me, not really for what she did. I did send a message to the guy she is having the EA with, and told her. Going to be a long day.


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## Lloyd Dobler

lost in Iowa said:


> Thanks for all the advise, was lying in bed until 1:30 last night, could hear the ww snoring away, so I got up. She asked what was wrong, and I told her its you, and went down stairs. She followed, and I told her everything I had found, we talked until 4:15, no yelling, not because I did not want too, but the oldest son was upstairs, working in the area, so he spent the night I asked her why she did what she did, and her response was she is lonely and we have nothing in common. She tried to say she was just emailing a friend, so I told her that is funny, I do not get or send naked pictures to my friends. She asked me what I wanted her to do, and I told her, I do not know. I said I am not willing to share her, even with a guy, 900 miles away. I got the feeling she wants for me to be the bad guy and tell her to leave. She was remorseful, but only for hurting me, not really for what she did. I did send a message to the guy she is having the EA with, and told her. Going to be a long day.


Really sorry you're going through this again, but I have to say it seems like you're making the same mistakes again. She needs to know there are consequences for her actions, and you're not showing her ANY. I would file for divorce - that doesn't mean you actually have to go through with it, but I've seen other people here say that you need to be willing to lose her before you can possibly get her back. 

That being said, if I were in your position, I would divorce with no looking back. You know she's cheated twice and she was pretty sophisticated in her methods this time - I'd be willing to bet there are other times you don't know about. Is that really the kind of wife you want to be married to? You need to get your self-respect back, and that isn't going to happen if you remain married and rugsweep again.


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## drifting on

Lost in Iowa

If you want to kill the affair, print it out, put in envelopes addressed to every member of her family. Show her the envelopes and the contents, then ask her to drive you to the post office. She is a serial cheater, she won't stop, she needs therapy, you need a divorce. I would also plan on telling your children, not by mailing them copies, but getting them all together then surprise your wife with the "family meeting". I doubt she is remorseful for hurting you, she is remorseful for being caught, after all you have nothing in common. Sorry you are here and best of luck to you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt

Ask her how cheating her special needs boy out of a family makes her feel?

Indifferent? Sad? Happy? What, exactly?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bandit.45

Well, you should have been patient and gone through the steps that everyone mentioned: protect yourself legally, protect yourself financially, THEN confront. You did it bass ackwards. Now she can go clean out your joint accounts and get a jump on you in the divorce. 

Now you will be playing catch-up. It would be best if you would listen to our advice and follow it.


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## SecondTime'Round

OP, you should edit your original post and remove the email address your wife was using. She could google "herself" and find this thread. In fact, I just did that, and indeed, this thread was the only result that popped up.


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## autopilot

lost in Iowa said:


> I asked her why she did what she did, and her response was she is lonely and we have nothing in common.
> 
> I got the feeling she wants for me to be the bad guy and tell her to leave. She was remorseful, but only for hurting me, not really for what she did.


She's already checked out of the marriage. You need to do the same.


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## happy as a clam

autopilot said:


> She's already checked out of the marriage. You need to do the same.


Yep. She's done. 

Her response to your question tells you all you need to know:



lost in Iowa said:


> I asked her why she did what she did, and her response was she is lonely and *we have nothing in common.*


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## Yeswecan

lost in Iowa said:


> Thanks for all the advise, was lying in bed until 1:30 last night, could hear the ww snoring away, so I got up. She asked what was wrong, and I told her its you, and went down stairs. She followed, and I told her everything I had found, we talked until 4:15, no yelling, not because I did not want too, but the oldest son was upstairs, working in the area, so he spent the night I asked her why she did what she did, and her response was she is lonely and we have nothing in common. She tried to say she was just emailing a friend, so I told her that is funny, I do not get or send naked pictures to my friends. She asked me what I wanted her to do, and I told her, I do not know. I said I am not willing to share her, even with a guy, 900 miles away. I got the feeling she wants for me to be the bad guy and tell her to leave. She was remorseful, but only for hurting me, not really for what she did. I did send a message to the guy she is having the EA with, and told her. Going to be a long day.


Sorry you are here. 

You did the right thing and you are correct, you don't send compromising pictures to friends. You explained to us here that you are doing all you can to assure her you love her. This usually entails doing things together. So she is lonely and you two don't have anything in common? Why bother to save what will only turn for the worse down the road...again? Third time is not a charm. There will be a third time I assure you. 

If you do not wish to be the bad guy as you believe your WW is wanting..EXPOSE both affairs far and wide. If you don't and move forward with the D your WW will put a spin on it making you look like the devil himself. 

Further, you are not starting over. Your are moving on and ridding yourself of being the constant watchman over your WW. Honestly, who needs that?


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## lost in Iowa

Again, thanks for all the advise, I know from viewing this board for a few years, most people that post here have gone through a divorce. I know is easy to sit behind a screen and give out advise to a person that you have never met and don't know. I just need time to sort this out, I just sent her an email telling her to come home over lunch, my daughter and I will be out of the house and get some cloths for a few days. I told her to come home after work on Friday and we can talk then. I will say, that is not an easy situation to be in, my younger brothers wife left him a couple of months ago, and I have been telling him to divorce her and go on with his life. Now I am looking at the same deal, and I am really unsure my next step.

Thanks again for listening.


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## youkiddingme

I feel for you man. 

You ended your last post with "thanks for listening."

It does not matter so much that others listen to you as it does that you START LISTENING to the advice you are being given. You are being given solid, proven steps and you are ignoring them. We all know the outcome of the path you are on unless you start listening and following advice that works.

You obviously do not know how to fix this or figure it out on your own. Otherwise it would be fixed already. Stop following your thinking and listen to those that have been there. Please.....


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## badmemory

lost in Iowa said:


> I do not want a divorce, getting too old to start over


That's what your WW is counting on; and that's why she'll likely do this again.

I doubt there is any meaningful consequence short of divorce at this point, that will get her attention.


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## dash74

SecondTime'Round said:


> OP, you should edit your original post and remove the email address your wife was using. She could google "herself" and find this thread. In fact, I just did that, and indeed, this thread was the only result that popped up.


Beat me to it


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## michzz

I recommend that you suck up your hurt and be a lot more strategic in your tactics. do not telegraph any more of your evidence to her.

Consult with a divorce lawyer pronto. Get tested for STDs, she may have met the guy or will soon. Do not be intimate with her. Stop sleeping with her.

Your marriage is over, deal with that, not your fantasy of how it should be. That fantasy is not reality.

Protect yourself financially, make an exit strategy.

I divorced my cheating wife after several decades. I found a much better life once I excised the drama and negativity from my life. It is surprisingly easy once you take the first steps. Take them!


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## Dyokemm

"we have nothing in common."

Yep...she is right.

You're loyal and were doing everything you could to save the M.

She is a selfish, disgusting serial cheat who does nothing but destroy her own H and family.

OP....stop trying....you have nothing to save here as she has already destroyed the M.

Kick this entitled princess to the curb....let her find out the hard way that she is no catch.

Decent, loyal, and committed men will want nothing to do with a serial cheating betrayer such as herself....the only guys she is going to find that want to spend time with her will be the ones who want to use her for sex, then dump her as soon as they are satisfied.

Let her discover the hard truth that she has thrown away the chance for a stable and loving family life in her later years (fast approaching btw) to go be a c*m dumpster for the most vile and disgusting POS men out there.

Your WW has thrown away her H and, as she will soon discover, the respect and devotion of her own kids for some cheap sexual thrills with utterly worthless men.

Stop trying to protect her from the consequences of her choices.....let her experience the new reality she has chosen.


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## happyman64

lost in iowa



> her response was she is lonely and we have nothing in common


You do realize just what a lie this is dont'cha?

You are married. That is a common item you both share.
You have 4 kids together and now a grandchild. That is a common item you both share.

I understand you do not want a D at 56. Who really would.

But I also know as a man I could not share my wife once, twice or even a third time.

Infidelity for some is a sickness.

She has lied to you and continues to do so. Most likely she has not stopped her hookups.

She will not be happy until someone gives her an STD or worse.....

Don't let that happen to you. You deserve better and maybe your wife is unable to give you better. And that might be the most disappointing fact in your relationship with her.

Just realize she is selfish. She loves some strange over your marriage.

Do yourself a favor. Show her consequences. 

Have you ever exposed her cheating to family? Maybe it is time.

ANd it is ok to love a cheater. She is your wife after all whether she behaves like it or not. 

But I do think it is time to love yourself more.

Now go follow your values and start showing her some consequences for her actions.

She needs and requires them. You have all the time in the world to decide what you want to do.

HM


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## Hicks

You have two choices.
1. Accept a marriage with a cheating wife.
2. Divorce.

Don't delude yourself into pursuing something that is not a choice (i.e. a marriage to this wife sans cheating).


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## jsmart

lost in Iowa said:


> Again, thanks for all the advise, I know from viewing this board for a few years, *most people that post here have gone through a divorce. * I know is easy to sit behind a screen and give out advise to a person that you have never met and don't know. I just need time to sort this out, I just sent her an email telling her to come home over lunch, my daughter and I will be out of the house and get some cloths for a few days. I told her to come home after work on Friday and we can talk then. I will say, that is not an easy situation to be in, my younger brothers wife left him a couple of months ago, and I have been telling him to divorce her and go on with his life. Now I am looking at the same deal, and I am really unsure my next step.
> 
> Thanks again for listening.


Actually many on this board have successfully R'ed. It takes a remorseful wife willing to put in the work with strong husband that's willing to stand up for himself. If you read on here and other sites, you'll see the trend. The men who play nice guy and walk on egg shells get played again and again. The men who go shock & awe without a concern about the results get truly remorseful wives crawling back.

You 2 have a long history. How she came to want to throw everything away is sad. She didn't fall for a OM over time. She went looking to cheat. She thinks trolling on these cheater sites is exciting and makes her feel desired. She doesn't know she's just a cum bucket. With you she's wife, mother, and now grandmother. Without you she will be just another old divorcee bringing different loser after loser to family events with everyone shaking their heads wondering why she destroyed herself. 

It's Shock & Awe time.
1. File for D ( you can remarry if she remorsefully earns your love back."
2. Expose to family & friends. (let her feel the shame of being a ****."
3. Implement the 180. (to help you detach)
4. Work on yourself for yourself


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## the guy

You guys already went through this shyt ...what 5 yrs ago?

Now she is at it again!

Come Friday you need to ask her whats she is going to do to affair proof this marriage....cuz were I"m sitting you are going to go thru the same hurt in another 5 yrs and another 5 years and so on.

By the time you guy make it to retirement your old will be jumping from walker to walker get her jollies.

So my point is .....it's not a matter of starting over at 55...it's a matter of going through this shyt over and over again. I mean in 20-30 yrs from now....when your sitting in a wheel chair with spit dripping off your chin, will your old lady be around to take care of you or leave your drooling @ss behind for some hot young 65 yr old stud?


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## MattMatt

You and she have "nothing in common."

Really?

Now in a very fundamental way, that is the truth.

You and your wife have nothing in common!

You are a faithful, loving and loyal spouse and she is NOT a faithful, loving and loyal spouse!

Please make this point to her and gauge her reaction.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chaparral

Before you do anything but take care of your banking and credit card division, Google serial cheaters and see what your up against. At her age its unlikely she just started cheating in the last five years. And since it doesn't look like she learned anything from the last affair, there was no reason, in her mind, not to continue her fantasies.

How did you catch the affair five years ago? She barely got caught this time. She's good at cheating and lying.


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## Graywolf2

Hicks said:


> You have two choices.
> 1. Accept a marriage with a cheating wife.
> 2. Divorce.
> 
> Don't delude yourself into pursuing something that is not a choice (i.e. a marriage to this wife sans cheating).


Those are indeed your options. You wife likes you well enough that seeing you hurt makes her sad. But not sad enough to outweigh the pleasure she receives from OM. 

I bet you never exposed her affair of five years ago. She has never paid any consequences for her actions. It’s like getting drunk and never having a hangover. Why in the world she give up the OM under these conditions. 

Security and companionship are important to women and become even more vital as they grow older. You wrote here and your actions confirm that you will supply her those things no matter she does. Again, why would she ever stop? 

The only leverage you have is to show her that her actions can jeopardize those things. You have received very good advice here. At the very least you should expose the current EA along with the five year old PA. Tell everyone that you gave her a chance and she’s back to her old ways.

No consequences sent her the message that what she did must not have been that bad after all. She needs feedback from other people to impress upon her just how bad it was. She should be begging you not to divorce her.


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## lost in Iowa

Quick update, my wife and I sat down and talked for four hours last night, she was very transparent with names dates, phone numbers passwords and everything. I have told my oldest daughter all of the details, she has been a great help. I have been trying to contact the other man's wife, calling and on facebook but no reply. I am willing to go to counseling to see if we can still work this out, but have told her, that it is up to her. She agreed to the counseling both married and for her privately. I just sent her and email about trying to contact his wife, I want to show her that I am not keeping any secrets from her. Everyone here may be right, it would be easier to just say "fck it" and see a lawyer, and maybe I will end up doing that if she is not truthful and really does want to stop. But for now, I will just see where this goes. My wife did spent Tuesday night with my sister in law, they have split up, I called the SIL yesterday and informed her all of the details, she was very helpful talking to. My wife showed me texts between to two, and the SIL was telling her the same things about being truthful, need to stop what she has been doing and try to make this work.


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## bandit.45

lost in Iowa said:


> Quick update, my wife and I sat down and talked for four hours last night, she was very transparent with names dates, phone numbers passwords and everything.
> 
> *Good.*
> 
> I have told my oldest daughter all of the details, she has been a great help.
> 
> *Good. Now expose to the rest of the family. *
> 
> I have been trying to contact the other man's wife, calling and on facebook but no reply.
> 
> *Keep trying.*
> 
> I am willing to go to counseling to see if we can still work this out, but have told her, that it is up to her. She agreed to the counseling both married and for her privately.
> 
> *Good. But she needs to be the one to set up the counseling with a pro-marriage counselor who will actually hold her accountable. It might take a while for the two of you to find one like that. *
> 
> I just sent her and email about trying to contact his wife, I want to show her that I am not keeping any secrets from her.
> *
> Bad. Do not do this anymore.
> *
> 
> Everyone here may be right, it would be easier to just say "fck it" and see a lawyer, and maybe I will end up doing that if she is not truthful and really does want to stop. But for now, I will just see where this goes.
> 
> *If you keep giving her the heads-up on everything you are doing it will go in the toilet. That's where it will go.
> *
> 
> My wife did spent Tuesday night with my sister in law, they have split up, I called the SIL yesterday and informed her all of the details, she was very helpful talking to. My wife showed me texts between to two, and the SIL was telling her the same things about being truthful, need to stop what she has been doing and try to make this work.


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## badmemory

lost in Iowa said:


> I am willing to go to counseling to see if we can still work this out, but have told her, *that it is up to her*.


If by that, you mean she has the choice to go to counseling if she wants you to "consider" R; good.

If you mean the decision to "try to work this out", is hers; not good at all. You own that decision. And it's a decision that you should take your time with - so that she at least has a reasonable expectation of losing her husband for cheating on him; again.


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## Acoa

One thing that is sure, if she knows you won't divorce, then she is just going to do whatever she needs to in order to calm the situation down. That may even include breaking off any active affairs and being fully transparent. For a while anyway. For as long as it takes to calm you. So that she can re-establish the status quo. 

She needs to see what life would look like in the post apocalyptic world of a divorce. Talk to a lawyer. Do the financial disclosures. Separate bank accounts. When she asks why, tell her that although you are willing to work on this, again. That you are not dumb, that you will not put up with this pattern repeating. That if you are not satisfied the marriage is getting better and you find some common ground. Then you will divorce. Have a plan for that divorce, discuss it and understand who will live where and be responsible for what. Make it real, and be willing to execute the plan.

She needs to believe that her safe comfy world is going to come crashing to an end if she keeps chasing cheap thrills. or, if she is really that unhappy, you've provided her a road map to freedom and she can follow it right out the door.


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## lost in Iowa

badmemory said:


> If by that, you mean she has the choice to go to counseling if she wants you to "consider" R; good.
> 
> Without the counseling we are through, this is not a choice, I have found one and given her the number to call and set up an appointment. In a rural area like this, there are not many out there, this one is 45 minutes away.
> 
> If you mean the decision to "try to work this out", is hers; not good at all. You own that decision. And it's a decision that you should take your time with - so that she at least has a reasonable expectation of losing her husband for cheating on him; again.


I meant that I was willing to try, but it would take both of us. I told her last night, it helps me to journal my thoughts, and wish she would do the same. When I started journaling I told her that I would leave the page open on the desk top, its not password protected and I was ok with her reading it. She started doing this today, I just finished reading what she wrote, and I think we are moving in the right direction, but she has to got to be truly remorseful and transparent, get counseling both couple and individual and go from there.


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## lost in Iowa

badmemory said:


> If by that, you mean she has the choice to go to counseling if she wants you to "consider" R; good.
> 
> *Without the counseling we are through, this is not a choice, I have found one and given her the number to call and set up an appointment. In a rural area like this, there are not many out there, this one is 45 minutes away.
> *
> If you mean the decision to "try to work this out", is hers; not good at all. You own that decision. And it's a decision that you should take your time with - so that she at least has a reasonable expectation of losing her husband for cheating on him; again.


I meant that I was willing to try, but it would take both of us. I told her last night, it helps me to journal my thought, and wish she would do the same. When I started journaling I told her that I would leave the page open on the desk top, its not password protected and I was ok with her reading it. She started doing this today, I just finished reading what she wrote, and I think we are moving in the right direction, but she has to got to be truly remorseful and transparent, get counseling both couple and individual and go from there.


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## Young at Heart

lost in Iowa said:


> .... I said I am not willing to share her, even with a guy, 900 miles away. *I got the feeling she wants for me to be the bad guy and tell her to leave.* She was remorseful, but only for hurting me, not really for what she did. *I did send a message to the guy *she is having the EA with, and told her. Going to be a long day.





lost in Iowa said:


> * I have told my oldest daughter all of the details, she has been a great help. I have been trying to contact the other man's wife, calling and on facebook but no reply. I am willing to go to counseling to see if we can still work this out, but have told her, that it is up to her. *
> 
> *She agreed to the counseling both married and for her privately*.
> 
> ....My wife did spent Tuesday night with my sister in law, they have split up, I called the SIL yesterday and *informed her all of the details, she was very helpful talking to*. My wife showed me texts between to two, and the SIL was telling her the same things about being truthful, need to stop what she has been doing and try to make this work.





lost in Iowa said:


> I meant that I was willing to try, but it would take both of us. I told her last night, it helps me to journal my thought, and wish she would do the same. When I started journaling I told her that I would leave the page open on the desk top, its not password protected and I was ok with her reading it. She started doing this today, I just finished reading what she wrote, and I think we are moving in the right direction, but she has to got to be truly remorseful and transparent, get counseling both couple and individual and go from there.


First of all she has agred to marriage and individual conseling. Stop trying to tell the world about her cheating, especially family. You are going to create quite a problem for her AND YOU if your marriage is saved. 

And especially stop trying to contact the other man or his family. Look at your motives, they are not love for your wife they are about hurting someone else. He may have it coming, but you are not making yourself a better person by stooping so low.

You are probably right in that subconsciously she wanted to be caught and was sabatoging her marriage in the hope that you would end it. You still can, if you want, but you seem unsure.

If you want to try to save your marriage, read any of MW Davis books on divorce busting and cheating wives. It will help you better understand that you are not alone and it will give you examples of how marriages can be put back together after such a situation.

I would also suggest your read Glover's No More Mr. Nice Guy and start living for yourself and your family so you become a more interesting and integrated man, a man your wife can fall in love with.

But above all do some introspection on your feelings and motives for your actions. If you want to rebuild the marriage (and she will need to want that too) you need to learn how to provide her with unconditional love. It will take time for trust to build for you to really do that, but until then you can still try. A good marriage is not about one person conditionally loving the other, that is what Glover would call a covert contract. If you want love from her, then give her love. If you want vengence then plan on divorcing her.

And oh yes, get some legal and financial advice as you need to financial protect your children and it is clear she doesn't have her head screwed on straight enough to do that. She with the help of an attorney may just want to punish you rather that protect the only sane person in her kids lives.

Good luck.


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## jb02157

I think this leaves you with no options. Why stay with her if all she is going to do is cheat on you? Get all the evidence you can on her. Get a VAR and record her conversations in her car, continue to get all the information you can from her "other" e-mail locations. It's important that she does not know you are gathering information on her, it was a mistake to change her password, now she knows that you know and maybe she's going to file before you do. About the only thing you can do now is drag her through the mud in divorce court, expose the affair to her family and the OM's family. You can argue how can the courts let the care of a special needs child go to a serial cheater that only thinks about destructive ways to meet her own needs. Unfortunately most courts side with the woman whether she's right or wrong.


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## jsmart

Most women but especially one your wife's age will only get very risky with her behavior, like meeting up with a stranger they know from the internet for sex,when they have a rock at home. 

With you not in the picture, she wouldn't do or even desire that type of activity. Maybe in the beginning of divorcehood with other divorcees egging her on but eventually she'll want and strongly desire a rock.

Problem is at 55 with a special needs adult child, no one of quality is going to sign up for that. Bang her for a few months sure but move in with her, pay the bills, help with kid. Uh, I don't think so.

So she needs to face consequences for her actions and face shame from friends and family for behaving wantonly. I think you need to divorce her. After the divorce if she works at it you can develop a new relationship. But she has to earn it. She can grow old with the father and grand father of her kids or be a cum dumpster for a new guy every few months.


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## lost in Iowa

The VAR would be a waste of time and money, we live three blocks from her work, a five minute walk on a bad day, or a two minute drive. I already have access to her cell phone, they did talk in May for 45 minutes on what I found out yesterday was a burner phone, used by him. I now have his home phone. She never called him that I can see on either our land line or her cell, she could have called him on her work account, but that would be risky for her. I could not read her emails on the gmail account without resetting the password, as I did not know what it was, and if I tried to drag it out of her, she would have just trashed everything and then said "see you were worried about nothing." and kept right now doing what she was doing. Plus, since I now have her gmail account under a different password, she can no longer gain access to the account, and its evidence against her if I need it. If it come to a divorce, and her gaining rights to keeping our daughter, I would win. My wife can not lift my daughter in and out of her wheel chair, or put her in the shower in the morning. I would only have to have my lawyer ask my wife to show the judge she is capable of lifting her, and when she could not, the judge would have to grant me custody.


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## phillybeffandswiss

lost in Iowa said:


> I am willing to go to counseling to see if we can still work this out, but have told her, that it is up to her. *She agreed to the counseling *both married and for her privately.


Hmmmm............



lost in Iowa said:


> We have been married for 36 years, wife had an affair five years ago, pretty sure she only slept with the guy one time, *went through counseling and have been trying to do my best to make my wife feel special*, and show how much I love and need her..


So, same thing different year.

If I was in her position, I already know counseling worked for me once, I'd agree as well. At least make a better choice and do not attend the same counselor. Find one that fully deals with or has experienced actual infidelity.


Good luck.


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## lost in Iowa

Different counselor, she just emailed me the date and time, he can see us on the 21st. Will meet with both of us together the first time, and then he will decide after that.


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## Lostinthought61

you realize that she can get her account back from google (gmail) by stating that she forget her email and as long as she can recall her security question they will reset the gmail account. i would forward yourself all the emails.


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## jb02157

lost in Iowa said:


> The VAR would be a waste of time and money, we live three blocks from her work, a five minute walk on a bad day, or a two minute drive. I already have access to her cell phone, they did talk in May for 45 minutes on what I found out yesterday was a burner phone, used by him. I now have his home phone. She never called him that I can see on either our land line or her cell, she could have called him on her work account, but that would be risky for her. I could not read her emails on the gmail account without resetting the password, as I did not know what it was, and if I tried to drag it out of her, she would have just trashed everything and then said "see you were worried about nothing." and kept right now doing what she was doing. Plus, since I now have her gmail account under a different password, she can no longer gain access to the account, and its evidence against her if I need it. If it come to a divorce, and her gaining rights to keeping our daughter, I would win. My wife can not lift my daughter in and out of her wheel chair, or put her in the shower in the morning. I would only have to have my lawyer ask my wife to show the judge she is capable of lifting her, and when she could not, the judge would have to grant me custody.


A friend of mine had a similar situation in a divorce with a special needs child. His wife couldn't lift her either, but they gave her full custody and and made him pay for a "health care professional" to lift her and bathe her. I wish it wasn't this way but it is, if you are female you get custody whether it makes sense or not.


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## lost in Iowa

We have been married for 36 years, wife had an affair five years ago, pretty sure she only slept with the guy one time, went through counseling and have been trying to do my best to make my wife feel special, and show how much I love and need her.

When I stated the above paragraph from my op, I meant that I would be less distant and try to talk to her more. I did not like the original counselor because he kept saying you need to forget about and focus on the future and being together, I wanted him to chew her ass, and explain that actions like this is what causes marriages to end. I also had a EA, over twenty years ago, wife found out and I ended it, I came to my senses and realized that I was not willing to risk not seeing my kids growing up for another woman. We worked on our problems, met with a counselor a few time, wife did not like the man, so she sought out and went through counseling with a local pastor. My wife is not a bad person, I asked her last night if she was a serial cheater, and she asked what that was? We have problems just like every marriage, compounded by having a child with CP. The first affair she wanted attention or she said, this time, I think she was just looking for friendship. She said she chose this man because he live 1150 miles away, and they could never meet. Reading through their emails, it was my wife wanting to meet, and when they finally did, they talked, kissed and groped, but that is all. My wife would have done more, but the guy wasn't ready for that, if it continued I am sure it would have evolved to sex, but I caught it before it happened. I do truly thank everyone that has posted and given me their thoughts, not sure if marriage can be saved, but both of us seem to be willing to try.


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## lost in Iowa

Xenote said:


> you realize that she can get her account back from google (gmail) by stating that she forget her email and as long as she can recall her security question they will reset the gmail account. i would forward yourself all the emails.


I have already forwarded a number of emails to my work account and copied them all to a zip drive I purchased yesterday.


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## phillybeffandswiss

lost in Iowa said:


> I asked her last night if she was a serial cheater, and she asked what that was?


Of course she did.

Anyway, thanks for the information. So, all of your personal issues, like defending your wife's actions, stem from your guilt of an EA 20 years ago. Be prepared, some will come in and imply you deserve or earned what you are getting. 

No, not true. 


Go get some individual counseling. Yes, your EA was terrible, but 2 affairs as pay back is ridiculous. So is holding onto your guilt to excuse her actions.


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## totalfive21

"*...I also had a EA, over twenty years ago, wife found out* and I ended it..."

Ok, new piece of info here we hadn't heard before. You betrayed her 20 years ago. Now, even though it sounds like your wife's behavior, both five years ago and most recently, is more egregious, I would bet anything that your past affair, even "just" an EA, stuck with her all these years. It sounds like you tried counseling at that time, but then just let it slide. More than you realize, it was probably rug swept. It poisons the well. It just does. 

Sorry to be so blunt as I feel for you in your current situation. But until now we didn't realize that you were the one that first betrayed her. That kicked her in the gut at the time, believe me, I know. And then with the kids, especially young ones at that time, she wouldn't have wanted to threaten divorce.


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## lost in Iowa

totalfive21 said:


> "*...I also had a EA, over twenty years ago, wife found out* and I ended it..."
> 
> Ok, new piece of info here we hadn't heard before. You betrayed her 20 years ago. Now, even though it sounds like your wife's behavior, both five years ago and most recently, is more egregious, I would bet anything that your past affair, even "just" an EA, stuck with her all these years. It sounds like you tried counseling at that time, but then just let it slide. More than you realize, it was probably rug swept. It poisons the well. It just does.
> 
> Sorry to be so blunt as I feel for you in your current situation. But until now we didn't realize that you were the one that first betrayed her. That kicked her in the gut at the time, believe me, I know. And then with the kids, especially young ones at that time, she wouldn't have wanted to threaten divorce.


Sorry, I should have included what I had done in my OP, there is nothing wrong with being blunt. We have been talking a lot since she got home, and she sat down and really cried tonight for the first time. Before it was her tearing up and trying to hold back, I told her that it was the first time she had really let go, and it helped both of us. I may be wrong, but I did see she was remorseful and truly sorry for the first time, just not say it, but express it. A small step, but and important one.


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## turnera

lost in Iowa said:


> Reading through their emails, it was my wife wanting to meet, and when they finally did, they talked, kissed and groped, but that is all. My wife would have done more, but the guy wasn't ready for that, if it continued I am sure it would have evolved to sex, but I caught it before it happened. I do truly thank everyone that has posted and given me their thoughts, not sure if marriage can be saved, but both of us seem to be willing to try.


One more thought before you disappear.

Are you going to VERIFY this with a polygraph test?

With a wife who has now cheated TWICE (that you know of), it is imperative that she see some real consequence to her actions. And I don't know of a better one than a polygraph, other than having to face YOUR PARENTS and tell them what she did.

Oh, and have I recommended that yet? That she tell your parents what she did? That should be a NO-DISCUSSION requirement on your end. And don't forget to tell them, in front of her, what YOU did.

If she's not willing to own up to her TWO AFFAIRS, then don't even TRY to reconcile.


----------



## Hardtohandle

Young at Heart said:


> First of all she has agred to marriage and individual conseling. Stop trying to tell the world about her cheating, especially family. You are going to create quite a problem for her AND YOU if your marriage is saved.
> 
> And especially stop trying to contact the other man or his family. Look at your motives, they are not love for your wife they are about hurting someone else. He may have it coming, but you are not making yourself a better person by stooping so low.
> 
> You are probably right in that subconsciously she wanted to be caught and was sabatoging her marriage in the hope that you would end it. You still can, if you want, but you seem unsure.
> 
> If you want to try to save your marriage, read any of MW Davis books on divorce busting and cheating wives. It will help you better understand that you are not alone and it will give you examples of how marriages can be put back together after such a situation.
> 
> I would also suggest your read Glover's No More Mr. Nice Guy and start living for yourself and your family so you become a more interesting and integrated man, a man your wife can fall in love with.
> 
> But above all do some introspection on your feelings and motives for your actions. If you want to rebuild the marriage (and she will need to want that too) you need to learn how to provide her with unconditional love. It will take time for trust to build for you to really do that, but until then you can still try. A good marriage is not about one person conditionally loving the other, that is what Glover would call a covert contract. If you want love from her, then give her love. If you want vengence then plan on divorcing her.
> 
> And oh yes, get some legal and financial advice as you need to financial protect your children and it is clear she doesn't have her head screwed on straight enough to do that. She with the help of an attorney may just want to punish you rather that protect the only sane person in her kids lives.
> 
> Good luck.


What in the world are you saying ? 

Has your wife ever cheated on you ? The answer is no

You have utterly zero clue and should not be posting here.. 

You out someone to give yourself breathing room to fix your marriage otherwise this POS and his wife can continue the affair unaffected.. You think he can watch her 24x7x365 ? 

@OP... 

You mentioned that it is easy for us divorced people to make a judgment call ?

I have reconciled with my EX WIFE 3 times in the past.. That is 2 more than you have.. I was willing and BEGGING to reconcile the last time when she decided to leave me and the kids.. 

What turnera posted was 1000% spot on.

I can only reflect back on my experience here.. I can tell you that if I gave my Ex wife some tough love, she would still be here today.. If would have followed Turnera advice along with many others, today I would still be married.. 

Mind you today I have dated woman 10 years younger than my Ex wife.. Extremely fvcking hot women I never expected to be with me.. I physical custody of my 2 boys and my Ex wife pays me child support that I don't even need.. I received a promotion in my job after my divorce. I am now retiring for a job which pays me a lot more money and I am collecting a pension from my first job.. I am estimating 11 to 12k a month in my pocket clean.. This of course does not include the sum of other money to the tune of 10k each year for the rest of my life from my first job and whatever bonus this new job gives each year.. Even if it was 5k I am bringing in 15k each year on top of the 11 to 12k each month..

That being said, if I could go back in time and fix what went wrong I would.. Something in me will always love part of my ex wife no matter of what a sh!tty person she was to me and my kids in the end.. Because she wasn't all bad.. I know that.. But the sh!t she did in the end really made up for lost time in the realm of being a real d0uche..

nonetheless it seems apparent by your tone of text that you seem to be looking to nice your way and be the understanding man in all of this.. This will not work.. 

I can tell you this simply.. The same G spot my first GF had 20+ years ago.. Is the same G spot every other woman I have been with had.. We as men and women are all built the same.. 

Why do you think that any person who cheats regardless of where they come from or what country they post from say the same sh!t.. Why do we coin the phrase cheater script ?.. Because there is only so much to a person and their mind.. Every normal person reacts the same way. They have the same mental states to things.. 

I have said this before and I will say it again.. I have yet to see anyone here post that they niced their way back into a marriage with their spouse.. I know it didn't work for me.. Trust me being a puzzy didn't work for me and heck I'm a cop.. I folded like a cheap suit when my wife was leaving.. She wanted a divorce but didn't want to lift a finger to do it... I did it all crying.. I cried in my lawyers office.. I cried giving her the papers.. I cried when she gave them to me.. I cried at court when the judge gave me child support.. 

She didn't give a flying fvck.. She was pissed.. She acted like I had the affair.. 

here is my simple point.. Don't listen to me and that is fine.. But please do not listen to the poster I quoted either because he is talking about something he has ZERO clue about or ever experienced it seems..


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## jsmart

totalfive21 said:


> "*...I also had a EA, over twenty years ago, wife found out* and I ended it..."
> 
> Ok, new piece of info here we hadn't heard before. *You betrayed her 20 years ago. Now, even though it sounds like your wife's behavior, both five years ago and most recently, is more egregious, I would bet anything that your past affair, even "just" an EA, stuck with her all these years.* It sounds like you tried counseling at that time, but then just let it slide. More than you realize, it was probably rug swept. It poisons the well. It just does.
> 
> Sorry to be so blunt as I feel for you in your current situation. But until now we didn't realize that *you were the one that first betrayed her. *That kicked her in the gut at the time, believe me, I know. And then with the kids, especially young ones at that time, she wouldn't have wanted to threaten divorce.


Please tell me you're joking about equating a supposed EA from over 20 years to his wife banging 2 men in last 5 years. I say supposed because the OP sounds like he's trying to down play his wife indiscretions and make up excuses for her behavior.


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## Lostinthought61

I see you trying to keep the marriage together, but except for the crying I don't see a lot of heavy lifting on her part.....the question to you is have to sat down and written what it will take for you to stay in this marriage and given it too her to comply?


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## Dyokemm

"And especially stop trying to contact the other man or his family. Look at your motives, they are not love for your wife they are about hurting someone else. He may have it coming, but you are not making yourself a better person by stooping so low."

This is absolutely the WORST advice on this thread so far.

Make sure you kill this A permanently by giving this POS something else to worry about that trying to continue with your WW....namely saving his own a** in his own M because his BW is no longer in the dark about his scummy behavior.

Also....don't buy for a second that this latest A stopped at kissing and groping.

If this POS was willing to travel over a 1000 miles to meet your WW...the idea that he wasn't 'ready' to take it to a sexual level is ridiculous bullsh*t that your WW is feeding you to try save her comfortable and reliable support mechanism...YOU.

What M guy would really travel a distance of nearly half way across the country to have a high school make out session?

Not only that, HE was using a burner phone...shows he's an experienced cheater...and no way an experienced POSOM like him is suddenly going to balk at sex with your WW.

Your WW is feeding you a line of crap and you are so desperate to save the M you are willing to buy it hook, line, and sinker.

Wake up....your WW is looking to gaslight and rugsweep her way out of this....her SECOND A....she knows she is on thin ice with you as a result of your discovery.

She is doing everything she can to calm the waters so she doesn't lose your stability like she deserves.

She IS a serial cheater....even if she refuses to admit it.


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## Mr Blunt

[QUOTE*]By Lost in Iowa*
I do not want a divorce, getting too old to start over, but I can not live with the current situation[/QUOTE]
Do not let your fears (Divorce-too old) lead you into a compromise that will further weaken your already weakened state.





> I got the feeling she wants for me to be the bad guy and tell her to leave.


She wants you to be the one that frees her; also for her to shift some blame to you and relieve her conscience.




> She was remorseful, but only for hurting me, not really for what she did


She enjoyed what she did and has an appetite for that excitement; that is not going away unless there are strong actions.





> Last night, she was very transparent with names dates, phone numbers passwords and everything.
> She agreed to the counseling both married and for her privately
> I may be wrong, but I did see she was remorseful and truly sorry for the first time, just not say it, but express it


*You should only start to believe that she has her appetite under control after she has shown you with ACTIONS for a VERY LONG TIME*. If you let the emotions convince you then you are trusting in something that is very unreliable. She maybe very emotional and sorry at the time but *it takes more than emotions it takes ACTIONS FOR A LONG TIME!*






> the judge would have to grant me custody.


This is also something that you should take into consideration. You are looking out for the best interest of your child but your wife chose to do something that would break up the family and hurt your children so that she could enjoy her selfishness and sexual appetite. That is a strong action by your wife that shows weak Character.






> I wanted him to chew her ass, and explain that actions like this is what causes marriages to end.


You wanted the counselor to give her a bit of her consequences. Was that because you did not have the cajones to do it yourself? I am not just talking about chewing her azz that does very little; I am talking about her facing all the family. That is just for starters, and then she must take actions to prove that she is willing to do whatever it takes to rebuild the relationship as much as possible. You could have divorced her and told her that you will give her a chance to bring the relationship back to marriage but that she must take her consequences and prove with actions for a long time that she is truly remorseful and willing to make amends as much as possible. *Did you have her take those actions? Did you take strong actions?*






> She said she chose this man because he live 1150 miles away, and they could never meet. Reading through their emails, it was my wife wanting to meet, and when they finally did, they talked, kissed and groped, but that is all. My wife would have done more, but the guy wasn't ready for that, if it continued I am sure it would have evolved to sex, but I caught it before it happened.


Our wife’s statement that she chose this man because they would never meet is a lie. Your wife wanted to have sex with this man more than he did. *Your wife’s appetite for sex with strangers is not going away with tears from her*; it will take a lot more than that. I would consider divorcing her and telling her, if you want to reconcile, that you will give her a chance to prove with actions that she has really changed and that she prove that you and her children are number one above all else.
*Whatever you do I would suggest that you work on forgiving her because that will be better for you, the children and all others. *Remember forgiveness does not mean that the consequences are eliminated. Forgiveness means that you do not hate her, want vengeance, hold no bitterness towards her, and want the best for her. Those are just a few of the reasons for forgiveness. Make sure you have a complete understanding of forgiveness.



My final thought is that you are the weaker spouse in that you want her more than she wants you. This disadvantage happens a lot and *you must get yourself more self-sufficient so that you do not compromise too much*. You are desperate to keep your wife even if it means that you take a lot of disrespect from her.


----------



## convert

Young at Heart said:


> First of all she has agred to marriage and individual conseling. *Stop trying to tell the world about her cheating, especially family.* You are going to create quite a problem for her AND YOU if your marriage is saved.
> 
> *And especially stop trying to contact the other man or his family.* Look at your motives, they are not love for your wife they are about hurting someone else. He may have it coming, but you are not making yourself a better person by stooping so low.
> 
> You are probably right in that subconsciously she wanted to be caught and was sabatoging her marriage in the hope that you would end it. You still can, if you want, but you seem unsure.
> 
> If you want to try to save your marriage, read any of MW Davis books on divorce busting and cheating wives. It will help you better understand that you are not alone and it will give you examples of how marriages can be put back together after such a situation.
> 
> I would also suggest your read Glover's No More Mr. Nice Guy and start living for yourself and your family so you become a more interesting and integrated man, a man your wife can fall in love with.
> 
> But above all do some introspection on your feelings and motives for your actions. If you want to rebuild the marriage (and she will need to want that too) you need to learn how to provide her with unconditional love. It will take time for trust to build for you to really do that, but until then you can still try. A good marriage is not about one person conditionally loving the other, that is what Glover would call a covert contract. If you want love from her, then give her love. If you want vengence then plan on divorcing her.
> 
> And oh yes, get some legal and financial advice as you need to financial protect your children and it is clear she doesn't have her head screwed on straight enough to do that. She with the help of an attorney may just want to punish you rather that protect the only sane person in her kids lives.
> 
> Good luck.


Exposure is not done to be vindictive.
Exposure is very vital especially when you want to save the marriage; it helps keeps the affair dead and it gains the BS and WS some support through family and friends.

Telling the OM's wife also is not done to be vindictive but to help keep the affair dead it gives another set of eyes on the matter and the OM's wife has the right to know to protect herself.


----------



## arbitrator

* Exposure itself preemptively serves only a two-fold purpose: It brings light into an illicit covert social situation whereby (1) the infidelic actors can either "cease and desist," either through shame and humiliation or by letting the relationship finally play itself out to permit the legitimate marriage partners to make an attempt to move toward some form of reconciliation, or (2) it will drive the cheaters and their sordid activities much further underground and the original marriage itself over into the legal arena for hopefully what is a fast dissolution!*


----------



## bandit.45

OP, ask yourself...

Would you have an online affair with a woman, with all the sexting and swapping of smutty pics that those entail, and then spend $600 to $800 to fly $1,000 miles to see her, spend another $400 or so on food and hotel, and NOT expect to have sex with her? 

Would you spend that kind of bread knowing she was not going to put out for you? 

C'mon man....a local prostitute will give you a better time for far less cash than that.

Your WW must think you are the biggest idiot in the world to believe that story.


----------



## Thor

You need to consult with an attorney about your complicated situation. The special needs child is a big issue. Also alimony, pensions, retirement accounts.


----------



## aine

lost in Iowa said:


> Sorry, I should have included what I had done in my OP, there is nothing wrong with being blunt. We have been talking a lot since she got home, and she sat down and really cried tonight for the first time. Before it was her tearing up and trying to hold back, I told her that it was the first time she had really let go, and it helped both of us. I may be wrong, but I did see she was remorseful and truly sorry for the first time, just not say it, but express it. A small step, but and important one.


I agree, women will put their needs last when there are young kids involved. However, once that is not an issue your A will come back to haunt you because to her it showed you were not very committed from the beginning. I know because I am in this place right now with my husband and sometimes I look at him and think 'how could you?, I owe no loyalty to you!" It is only because of my religious convictions I haven't had an affair, not because of him.


----------



## lost in Iowa

bandit.45 said:


> OP, ask yourself...
> 
> Would you have an online affair with a woman, with all the sexting and swapping of smutty pics that those entail, and then spend $600 to $800 to fly $1,000 miles to see her, spend another $400 or so on food and hotel, and NOT expect to have sex with her?
> 
> Would you spend that kind of bread knowing she was not going to put out for you?
> 
> C'mon man....a local prostitute will give you a better time for far less cash than that.
> 
> Your WW must think you are the biggest idiot in the world to believe that story.


I am not here to defend my wife's actions, but this is crazy, the man sells medical supply's, he was at the Mayo clinic, she at a meeting in Des Moines. Yes, they set up the meeting, but it is not like he spent thousands of dollars to meet her and expected sex from her. Just the opposite, the emails, go into great detail of them meeting and how disappointed my wife was that they had not messed around, the man just would or could not do it. I know some on here will not believe that, but I over 700 emails between the two of them and they never had sex, kissed, groped like teenagers but that was it. To the posture that said I was the follower in our marriage, and my wife the leader, I would say you are right. It is strange, but in both our professional careers, the opposite is true, I am the lead alpha dog, willing to speak up and it has hurt my career. My wife is just the opposite, she refuses to do it to her boss, even when she is right. I guess when we get home we reverse roles. I still want to make this work with my wife, I have tried to contact the other mans wife three times, not successful yet, but will keep trying. We are going to counseling on the 21st, earliest we could get in. The thought of giving her a polygraph is crazy, as I have stated we live in a very rural area of the state, not even sure where I could go to do it if we could. I am trying, we have talked about money, and if she would empty out the bank account I would be able to get by, for a short term. Yes, it is hard to trust someone that has so cavalierly lied to me, but I do want to make this marriage work, but she will have to prove to me she is willing to try, get counseling, help more with our daughter and become my wife again not just someone I share a home and memories with. Again thanks for the advise.


----------



## aine

Thou have all the evidence you need, where are the consequences?

Expose her lies, then expose her to family and friends
Expose to OM wife
Get a lawyer and start divorce proceedings - u don't have to go through with it
Get IC for yourself

You have to be willing to lose this marriage to save it, there is no evidence yet that you are willing to step up and play hardball.
What incentive does your wife have to change?


----------



## GusPolinski

You know for a fact that she's cheated _at least_ twice now. How many more times will it take before you stand up for yourself and pull the plug on this sham of a marriage?


----------



## alte Dame

Bandit is going with the odds, I think, in assuming that there is a PA. BS's always insist that there was no opportunity, that they've read all the correspondence, that the texts show conclusively, etc.

And the cheating spouse almost always finds a way. It is part of the infidelity script. When I say 'almost always,' I mean that it is one case here out of thousands where the BS is correct in assuming that it didn't go physical.

Search the term 'EA' on this site and then start reading the threads. Note how common it is for the OP to report that it, indeed, had been physical. It is sadly predictable.


----------



## bandit.45

But what her e-mails do show is that she was the aggressor here, even if they did not consummate sexually. That right there, in my mind, is just as bad as if she and him had gone through with it.


----------



## lost in Iowa

When I originally found this site after my wife's first affair, it helped to read the comments from people. I continued to read those comments for the next five years, never posting just lurking, reading, seeing what people say. The past few days I have come to the realization that for a site called Talk about Marriage, the infidelity section has become nothing but a site, were people are quick to shout, "throw the ***** to the curve and start over" or "once a cheater always a cheater". I thought I could get good advice, help, and comfort from people, instead I am attacked, basically called a spineless individual and I need to stand up for myself and stop being ran over. I have the email, I have tried to contact the other mans wife, and will continue to do so, I have exposed her deeds to her daughter and SIL. No, I have not seen a lawyer, I want to make this work, we are going to try counseling both group and single. My wife has been very transparent giving me all the passwords, his facebook, that I have asked. Do I still wonder is she being totally truthful, hell yes, but until I find out otherwise, I go by the R. Reagan quote "trust but verify." No she did not sleep with guy, yes, she wanted to, I suppose I should be thankful the guy had some honor and did not do it, I owe him that, most men would have. I do not blame him for this, I blame my wife. Again thanks for the advise.


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## G.J.

If you do nothing else please see a lawyer for a consultation at least it will show her how far she has pushed and will be the best money you have spent in a while for:

1.Yourself
2.To make her realize what the outcome could be


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## lost in Iowa

I should add, that my wife and I spent the past hour talking when she came home for lunch, I again told her how I was feeling and thinking. Listening to her talk, I now have a better understanding of who she is and how she thinks. My wife was never the popular girl in school, none athletic, she was the plan Jane type of gal. Those were her words, not mine, I was just the opposite, maybe that is what attracted me too her. Listening to her talk, I got the feeling she was looking for attention and craves getting it. I do believe that she was just looking for a pen pal at the start, no harm in that. But over time the fog of the affair set in, and the OM became her escape from her life and family. Not trying to defend her, but just understand, I told her I was always here, but before I or she knew it, she had fallen into a fantasy world of someone a thousand miles away. The next step would be to meet, that was accomplished then I am sure it was going to meet and sleep together. I told my wife a few minutes ago, that just like a recovering alcoholic, that she would never be truly cured, that she has to come to the realization that each day will be a struggle, but she must reach out to me and the kids. Everyone has always told me what a sweet and caring person my wife is, and I have always thought, you should live with her, that might change your thinking. But, that is just being cold, I do love my wife. Told her, this is it, you have hurt me too much, and I will try but their are no guarantees about our future. At least for now, its day to day, and hope her actions and the psychologist can get us both through this. Thanks again.


----------



## totalfive21

jsmart said:


> Please tell me you're joking about equating a supposed EA from over 20 years to his wife banging 2 men in last 5 years. I say supposed because the OP sounds like he's trying to down play his wife indiscretions and make up excuses for her behavior.


I am in no way equating his EA from 20 years ago with her two PA's of the past five years. Nor am I saying that he deserved this. But an EA is still VERY much a betrayal, and it's wrong to assume that it had no effect. I am certain that it kicked her in the gut at the time. And if his wife also had/has self esteem issues to begin with, as OP described her always feeling like a "plain Jane" compared to him, then the knowledge that he gave of his heart in any way to another woman will have a profound impact. Especially if the incident was rug swept. This does not justify her behavior, and as I stated in my first reply, I feel for the OP. But let's be honest about all the factors at play here -- his past actions ARE a factor. 

I am closing in on 3 years since my own DDay of my H's EA. It was not properly dealt with by us, and I can honestly say that I think about it every single day. And what it meant/means about my H's true commitment to me. It does not make me want to be unfaithful myself, BUT.... at this rate I feel pretty strongly that 15 or 20 years from now, the hurt will still be there.


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## Dyokemm

OP,

You say you have read here for 5 years.

Then you should know that there is plenty of support offered here for TRUE R in a M....BUT very blunt advice for situations that scream out 'false' R and rugsweeping.

I understand your desire to save your M if possible....it's your life and right to choose what's best for your own happiness.

But what other experienced posters are saying here....and it should be something you are familiar with if you have been reading threads since 2010......is that your WW is a SERIAL cheat who is desperately trying to sweep this A into oblivion...and you seem to be going along with it out of fear, not love.

For example, your WW already knew what this would do to your M and family....she screwed a guy 5 years ago, got caught, and nearly blew up her M and family then.

Has she been able to explain in any rational way how, knowing what she did already, she could go ahead and do it again?

Your posts made it sound like she doesn't even acknowledge the fact she IS a serial cheater.

Posters here aren't beating you up so much as trying to wake you up....you seem lost in your own 'fog' of denial.

If she cannot even answer and deal with this ONE major question/issue in an honest way and with serious self-reflection, how can YOU move forward believing she is going to truly going to be loyal and stop this sh*t?

I'm sure she said the exact same things to you 5 YEARS ago when you forgave her the first time....yet here you are again.

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result.

If you truly want to save your M, you had best make SURE this time that whatever it is that motivates her to be a worthless traitor to you and her family gets truly dealt with.

The reason you feel so many of the posters are bashing you is because almost none of us see you taking steps to do this....we see rugsweeping.

You are not being bashed....you are being warned that you are heading down the same ineffective path you did the first time you caught her.


----------



## bandit.45

totalfive21 said:


> I am in no way equating his EA from 20 years ago with her two PA's of the past five years. Nor am I saying that he deserved this. But an EA is still VERY much a betrayal, and it's wrong to assume that it had no effect. I am certain that it kicked her in the gut at the time. And if his wife also had/has self esteem issues to begin with, as OP described her always feeling like a "plain Jane" compared to him, then the knowledge that he gave of his heart in any way to another woman will have a profound impact. Especially if the incident was rug swept. This does not justify her behavior, and as I stated in my first reply, I feel for the OP. But let's be honest about all the factors at play here -- his past actions ARE a factor.
> 
> I am closing in on 3 years since my own DDay of my H's EA. It was not properly dealt with by us, and I can honestly say that I think about it every single day. And what it meant/means about my H's true commitment to me. It does not make me want to be unfaithful myself, BUT.... at this rate I feel pretty strongly that 15 or 20 years from now, the hurt will still be there.


I agree with your assessment...

But, she has had twenty odd years to deal with her resentment and anger over that, and to help her husband and herself affair-proof the marriage. She obviously never did so, and any counseling she did undergo obviously didn't take.


----------



## Young at Heart

Hardtohandle said:


> What in the world are you saying ?
> 
> Has your wife ever cheated on you ? The answer is no
> 
> You have utterly zero clue and should not be posting here..
> 
> You out someone to give yourself breathing room to fix your marriage otherwise this POS and his wife can continue the affair unaffected.. You think he can watch her 24x7x365 ?
> 
> ..





Dyokemm said:


> "And especially stop trying to contact the other man or his family. Look at your motives, they are not love for your wife they are about hurting someone else. He may have it coming, but you are not making yourself a better person by stooping so low."
> 
> This is absolutely the WORST advice on this thread so far....


I can understand that finding your spouse has had an affair is a gut wrenching emotinal situation. I thought that our comments were to try to help the OP achieve what he wants to achieve.



arbitrator said:


> * Exposure itself preemptively serves only a two-fold purpose: It brings light into an illicit covert social situation whereby (1) the infidelic actors can either "cease and desist," either through shame and humiliation or by letting the relationship finally play itself out to permit the legitimate marriage partners to make an attempt to move toward some form of reconciliation, or (2) it will drive the cheaters and their sordid activities much further underground and the original marriage itself over into the legal arena for hopefully what is a fast dissolution!*


OK, my 2 cents. I thought that this guy wanted to stay married and try to rebuild their marriage. I read that they were going to go to counseling.

Let's hypothesize for a moment that the counseling works and the marriage is saved. Let's further assume that the OP wants his family to support his "saved" marriage.

Will things be easier at Christmas and Thanksgiving family gatherings with all the family members knowing his wife cheated on him? I think she will be very uncomfortable and not want to go to family gatherings. I don't think that will help the OP.

Can this marriage be saved? Probably not, since both have had affairs, and the wife appears to have had multiple affairs recently. 

Also let's all think for a moment about the fact that the OP has to some extent reconciled with his wife after her affair about 5 years ago and let's focus on his desire to again preserve their marriage. From that perspective what should he be doing?

Let's look at what "arbitrator" said are the purposes for "exposure" I think that is some very good advice.

Let's take the second purpose first.


> it will drive the cheaters and their sordid activities much further underground and the original marriage itself over into the legal arena for hopefully what is a fast dissolution


If the OP really wants to preserve his marriage will driving them underground or speeding up the disolution of the marriage be consistent with his stated desire? Nope!

Let's take a look, now, at the first purpose of "exposure."



> the infidelic actors can either "cease and desist," either through shame and humiliation or by letting the relationship finally play itself out to permit the legitimate marriage partners to make an attempt to move toward some form of reconciliation,


So "outing" the cheaters may allow for resolution if they are shamed into stopping. That would be desirable. 

The question is how much "outing" and how much "shame" are required to reach this state and if too much shame creates a situation where the marriage can never be saved? Should outing/shaming be gradually applied or should it be applied in a "nuclear" way?

The OP confronted his wife and the other man. What is gained by telling multiple family members? 

Moral support for the OP, is gained, especially if he ultimately divorces. Also it ups the level of "shame" involved for his wife, so if she is reluctant to stop and isn't driven underground, it might be helpful. 

How about contacting the other man repeatedly? The other guy knows he has been caught and told the OP doesn't intend to allow it to continue. What is gained by contacting the other man multiple times? 

Does anyone believe the the other man will suddenly say, oh I should stop because of this husbands continued displeasure? Not likely. How many of you have heard of road rage incidents where people are nearly killed? How many times should one poke a hornets nest, before leaving it alone?

What is gained by contacting the other man's wife after he had contacted the other man? As stated, another set of eyes might be watching to prevent contination of the affair. That would be good.

What other things might happen, if say the other man's wife kicks him out and files for divorce? Would that help or hurt the OP's situation? Could a divorce on the part of the other man drive the two cheaters even closer together?

Yes, going "nuclear" and exposing the affair to the world will put his wife and the other man in a bigger social pickle, but will it help preserve the marriage that the OP has said is his goal? Remember he has reconcilled once with her recently after an affair of hers. They are also going to counseling.

If going nuclear will save the marriage by itself, then some of you should advise him to take out newspaper ads and billboard ads in both his community and the community of the other man that say x&Y are having an illicit affair and destroying two marriages.:surprise:

In my opinion going nuclear with exposing the affair is not consistent with the stated goals of the OP. 

Good luck to the OP, I hope your counseling works for you and your wife.


----------



## turnera

Young at Heart said:


> I thought that this guy wanted to stay married and try to rebuild their marriage. I read that they were going to go to counseling.
> 
> Let's hypothesize for a moment that the counseling works and the marriage is saved. Let's further assume that the OP wants his family to support his "saved" marriage.
> 
> Will things be easier at Christmas and Thanksgiving family gatherings with all the family members knowing his wife cheated on him? I think she will be very uncomfortable and not want to go to family gatherings. I don't think that will help the OP.


On the contrary, in MY version of reconciling, the cheater is expected to go to the betrayed's parents - if not also the larger family, if they're all particularly close - and admit what they did, and commit to the spouse, and ask their forgiveness. Humility is the great equalizer, when it comes to cheating. It helps the cheater see the gravity of their offense, when having to look those people in the face. But it also helps the cheater when those same people thus feel compassion for the person for having the decency to apologize to them and dedicate themselves. 

An apology is one of the strongest weapons there is, and making one to his family will do more to unite them than just pretending it never happened. Because I guarantee you, his family either already knows through rumors or will find out. By getting out in front of it and showing earnestness and humility, they will become a more united family, not less so.

And, of course, if the 'former' cheater is unwilling to do this, it's an amazing harbinger of her lack of REAL remorse.


----------



## Dyokemm

I agree with Turnera on exposure to family and friends.

But that is not really the issue involved with the my response to your original post.

You did not say 'Don't expose the A to friends and family because it might make R more difficult' (which btw I would also disagree with for the reasons Turnera so brilliantly mentioned)....you specifically told him not to tell the POSOM's BW.

And THAT is the part I say is the worst mistake he could make.

A BS can NEVER save their M if the A is not totally and forever killed off....and the BEST and MOST EFFECTIVE way to kill an A is to expose it to the other BS.

There are so many threads on TAM and other sites that prove this point to be true that I am surprised that anyone continues to argue against exposing at a MINIMUM to the OBS.

Allowing a POS AP to continue to fish for the WS with no consequences is almost a guarantee that the A will either flare up again (only deeper underground this time so harder to catch) or the A will die such a lingering, drawn out death that the M can be seriously or permanently damaged as the BS waits for the WS to finally pull their head out of their own a**.

Sorry...but I still think yours is the worst advice that OP has received on this thread.


----------



## jsmart

Not sure if that's the case here but there is a trend I see from many fearful BHs making excuses for the WWs and also over blowing any transgressions they have made in the past so that they will not appear so weak for wanting to rug sweep and R with no consequences for their spouse. 

Also their varying degrees of EAs. from overy friendly with mild flirting to phone/virtual sex with future faking. What type did OP have he doesn't describe but we know that his wife has had at least 2 PAs. The last one extremely vile. After being forgiven for having sex with some POS, a few years later she's actually looking for a stranger on internet for sex. Talk about trash.


----------



## Hardtohandle

Young at Heart said:


> I can understand that finding your spouse has had an affair is a gut wrenching emotinal situation. I thought that our comments were to try to help the OP achieve what he wants to achieve.
> 
> 
> 
> OK, my 2 cents. I thought that this guy wanted to stay married and try to rebuild their marriage. I read that they were going to go to counseling.
> 
> Let's hypothesize for a moment that the counseling works and the marriage is saved. Let's further assume that the OP wants his family to support his "saved" marriage.
> 
> Will things be easier at Christmas and Thanksgiving family gatherings with all the family members knowing his wife cheated on him? I think she will be very uncomfortable and not want to go to family gatherings. I don't think that will help the OP.
> 
> Can this marriage be saved? Probably not, since both have had affairs, and the wife appears to have had multiple affairs recently.
> 
> Also let's all think for a moment about the fact that the OP has to some extent reconciled with his wife after her affair about 5 years ago and let's focus on his desire to again preserve their marriage. From that perspective what should he be doing?
> 
> Let's look at what "arbitrator" said are the purposes for "exposure" I think that is some very good advice.
> 
> Let's take the second purpose first.
> 
> If the OP really wants to preserve his marriage will driving them underground or speeding up the disolution of the marriage be consistent with his stated desire? Nope!
> 
> Let's take a look, now, at the first purpose of "exposure."
> 
> 
> 
> So "outing" the cheaters may allow for resolution if they are shamed into stopping. That would be desirable.
> 
> The question is how much "outing" and how much "shame" are required to reach this state and if too much shame creates a situation where the marriage can never be saved? Should outing/shaming be gradually applied or should it be applied in a "nuclear" way?
> 
> The OP confronted his wife and the other man. What is gained by telling multiple family members?
> 
> Moral support for the OP, is gained, especially if he ultimately divorces. Also it ups the level of "shame" involved for his wife, so if she is reluctant to stop and isn't driven underground, it might be helpful.
> 
> How about contacting the other man repeatedly? The other guy knows he has been caught and told the OP doesn't intend to allow it to continue. What is gained by contacting the other man multiple times?
> 
> Does anyone believe the the other man will suddenly say, oh I should stop because of this husbands continued displeasure? Not likely. How many of you have heard of road rage incidents where people are nearly killed? How many times should one poke a hornets nest, before leaving it alone?
> 
> What is gained by contacting the other man's wife after he had contacted the other man? As stated, another set of eyes might be watching to prevent contination of the affair. That would be good.
> 
> What other things might happen, if say the other man's wife kicks him out and files for divorce? Would that help or hurt the OP's situation? Could a divorce on the part of the other man drive the two cheaters even closer together?
> 
> Yes, going "nuclear" and exposing the affair to the world will put his wife and the other man in a bigger social pickle, but will it help preserve the marriage that the OP has said is his goal? Remember he has reconcilled once with her recently after an affair of hers. They are also going to counseling.
> 
> If going nuclear will save the marriage by itself, then some of you should advise him to take out newspaper ads and billboard ads in both his community and the community of the other man that say x&Y are having an illicit affair and destroying two marriages.:surprise:
> 
> In my opinion going nuclear with exposing the affair is not consistent with the stated goals of the OP.
> 
> Good luck to the OP, I hope your counseling works for you and your wife.


I stopped at christmas and thanksgiving comment..

You know why ? 

FVCK MY RELATIVES.. FVCK MY MOTHER.. FVCK MY BROTHER... 

I Just wanted my family back.. I wanted my wife back.. I don't give a flying fvck about anyone else and anything they said.. I just wanted her to be home again with me and the kids.. 

I tried it the other way.. It doesn't work.. I have relived my moments every time someone comes here trying to figure out how in the world they can show their spouse they can change.. They can be better.. That they would do whatever they wanted if they just didn't leave.

It just didn't work.. I've seen people fall apart like myself here.. 

Its been over 2 years and I live it anytime I break up with someone.. Even at my own decision and choice...

I've been a cop for 25 years.. I'm in line atm to clear 120k a year CASH in my pocket.. That does NOT include a supplement I get of 10k and whatever bonus this new job offers.. 

I own a million dollar home with a mortgage of 150k.. 

I have my 2 boys and my Ex is bound to pay me child support of at least 1k a month.. At least that much... 

I'm in the best shape of my life EVER.. 
I would live in a box if I could have fixed whatever went wrong in my marriage..

But being nice.. begging.. trying to work it out.. trying to change just doesn't work.. 

Only because I eventually grew a pair of balls did I fix and protect myself during my divorce.. If I only had a pair before I wouldn't have been divorced.. And I wouldn't be going to therapy every fvcking week trying to figure out what went wrong.. what did I do wrong.. 

Even when I know I did the best I could.. It just makes me second guess myself.. 

Suffice to say I'm done crying for today.. So I am stepping out of this for now..


----------



## Mr Blunt

> *By Lost in Iowa*
> The past few days I have come to the realization that for a site called Talk about Marriage, the infidelity section has become nothing but a site, were people are quick to shout, "throw the ***** to the curve and start over" or "once a cheater always a cheater".



Some posters do take that position but some do not. You have been given some good advice about how you can help your wife control her addiction of desiring attention and sex from other men. That is one reason that I said in my previous post 
“She enjoyed what she did and has an appetite for that excitement; that is not going away unless there are strong actions.”

Your wife has a weakness in her Character. That is not telling you to “throw the **** to the curb and start over or “once a cheater always a cheater” That is telling you a fact that is very important for you and her to address. It is obvious that your wife needs help with her weak character. The right kind of consequences will help her keep her temptations down. When your wife wants to feed her appetite for attention and sex she will have to have a barrier for her to put a stop to the thought process immediately. Consequences, the kind that is not vengeance, but the kind that will help her stop her thoughts and actions that lead to the “fog” is one good tool to employ.


It is good that she is going to counseling because a good counselor will tell her that she has lost some respect of those that she says she loves the most. In addition, she can be allowed to work on that respect and build it up over the years. She has seriously damaged the marriage and family unity and needs to be helped to start rebuilding that damage. She needs to face the great damage that she has done and understand the magnitude of her actions and then be given a plan for her to rebuild.

In my case, I divorced her because she violated the marriage in one of the most damaging ways and must see what the consequences are for such horrible actions. She was allowed to prove by actions for years that she really is remorseful and will put me and our children above all others. *Emotions and crying maybe an indication of real remorse but only actions reveal the real truth.* 

Our children were hurt badly by her actions and they did not shield that from her. So she had the choice to feed her appetite and thoughts that lead to another affair but she knew that she would not get the respect back from her children and that I would never remarry her again. So there you have a few clear cut consequences. She can feed her appetite but it will cost her relations with me and her children. She has not chosen to fall into that “fog” and then follow up with betrayal actions for over 20 years now. I know that there are other ways but mine worked for me and maybe it can help you.


I am not the only one on this thread that has tried to give you real life experiences that could help you, your wife and your children. So stop getting all defensive and lumping us all into the same category of 
, the infidelity section has become nothing but a site, were people are quick to shout, "throw the ***** to the curve and start over" or "once a cheater always a cheater".

You have taken some steps that can help your situation and you need to get credit for that but you seem a bit too desperate to make sure that your wife and you stay together and maybe shying away from the hard parts or compromising too much . You may compromise without fully seeing it because you are much shaken at this point. 

The best thing for your family is for you and your wife to have a real recovery and that will take some hard choices, hard actions, hard consequences and great determination. At the same time you will have to balance that with positive concern and discernment and keep out hatred, bitterness, and vengeance.* Find the balance and employ that balance if you are determined to save the marriage*.


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## lost in Iowa

Mr Blunt said:


> Some posters do take that position but some do not. You have been given some good advice about how you can help your wife control her addiction of desiring attention and sex from other men. That is one reason that I said in my previous post
> “She enjoyed what she did and has an appetite for that excitement; that is not going away unless there are strong actions.”
> 
> Your wife has a weakness in her Character. That is not telling you to “throw the **** to the curb and start over or “once a cheater always a cheater” That is telling you a fact that is very important for you and her to address. It is obvious that your wife needs help with her weak character. The right kind of consequences will help her keep her temptations down. When your wife wants to feed her appetite for attention and sex she will have to have a barrier for her to put a stop to the thought process immediately. Consequences, the kind that is not vengeance, but the kind that will help her stop her thoughts and actions that lead to the “fog” is one good tool to employ.
> 
> 
> It is good that she is going to counseling because a good counselor will tell her that she has lost some respect of those that she says she loves the most. In addition, she can be allowed to work on that respect and build it up over the years. She has seriously damaged the marriage and family unity and needs to be helped to start rebuilding that damage. She needs to face the great damage that she has done and understand the magnitude of her actions and then be given a plan for her to rebuild.
> 
> In my case, I divorced her because she violated the marriage in one of the most damaging ways and must see what the consequences are for such horrible actions. She was allowed to prove by actions for years that she really is remorseful and will put me and our children above all others. *Emotions and crying maybe an indication of real remorse but only actions reveal the real truth.*
> 
> Our children were hurt badly by her actions and they did not shield that from her. So she had the choice to feed her appetite and thoughts that lead to another affair but she knew that she would not get the respect back from her children and that I would never remarry her again. So there you have a few clear cut consequences. She can feed her appetite but it will cost her relations with me and her children. She has not chosen to fall into that “fog” and then follow up with betrayal actions for over 20 years now. I know that there are other ways but mine worked for me and maybe it can help you.
> 
> 
> I am not the only one on this thread that has tried to give you real life experiences that could help you, your wife and your children. So stop getting all defensive and lumping us all into the same category of
> , the infidelity section has become nothing but a site, were people are quick to shout, "throw the ***** to the curve and start over" or "once a cheater always a cheater".
> 
> You have taken some steps that can help your situation and you need to get credit for that but you seem a bit too desperate to make sure that your wife and you stay together and maybe shying away from the hard parts or compromising too much . You may compromise without fully seeing it because you are much shaken at this point.
> 
> The best thing for your family is for you and your wife to have a real recovery and that will take some hard choices, hard actions, hard consequences and great determination. At the same time you will have to balance that with positive concern and discernment and keep out hatred, bitterness, and vengeance.* Find the balance and employ that balance if you are determined to save the marriage*.


Thank you, I needed to hear what you said, I am sorry if I offended everyone here, but it is my hope that we can still save this marriage, if not so be it, but I am at least willing to try. My wife and I have talked more in the past few days then we have in the past few months. By talking, I mean about her actions, about what she was thinking or not thinking. Yes, I believe she has a serious character flaw when it comes to seeking attention, she said so tonight, she does not think things through, and I reminded her of Newton's second law, "for every action, there is a second and opposite reaction." I hope the counseling will help, but I have told her repeatedly these past few days, that she has shaken me to the core, and its going to be a long time, if ever, that I can begin to trust here again. I have been telling her "deeds, not words" are what is going to save us, if we can be saved.


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## bandit.45

I'm for you and your WW reconciling if she is willing to own her sh!t and do the hard work to address her issues. If she is proving to you, through her actions, every single day, that she is committed to fixing herself and saving the marriage, then I am all for you trying to R. But she has to honestly want it, and be ready to walk through hell and back with you to achieve it. There can be no half measures on her part. You have to determine whether she is all in, or just stringing you along.


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## lost in Iowa

bandit.45 said:


> I'm for you and your WW reconciling if she is willing to own her sh!t and do the hard work to address her issues. If she is proving to you, through her actions, every single day, that she is committed to fixing herself and saving the marriage, then I am all for you trying to R. But she has to honestly want it, and be ready to walk through hell and back with you to achieve it. There can be no half measures on her part. You have to determine whether she is all in, or just stringing you along.


Thank you, and I also worry about her stringing me along, telling me what I what to hear part. She asked me last night if my investigation into what she was doing is over, I had told her I knew about 85% and would find out about the remaining 15%. I wondered why is she asking me that, is their something I have not found yet? I told her, that this investigation will never be over, I will be looking for more clues for a long time. Trust but verify.


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## drifting on

lost in Iowa said:


> Thank you, and I also worry about her stringing me along, telling me what I what to hear part. She asked me last night if my investigation into what she was doing is over, I had told her I knew about 85% and would find out about the remaining 15%. I wondered why is she asking me that, is their something I have not found yet? I told her, that this investigation will never be over, I will be looking for more clues for a long time. Trust but verify.



I am in reconciliation, I support the OP as to what they want. This post has me very concerned as I'm sure it does you. My WW was very angry when I retrieved a deleted email from her phone. The email consisted of four words, "are you still enjoying". Those four words caused me quite a bit of pain. But my WW never told me she was mad until a month after d-day. My WW said she would have done the same as I had done. She never once asked if the investigation was over. The WS must be transparent and I'm sensing she wants to get back to her affair. 

Maybe not this same person but with that statement I would be weary of others. Trust but verify has to be implemented by you. I apologize to you but please be aware that something is amiss to ask that question, you should be preparing for the worst here in that there may no others. I'm sorry to have to say this, I'm not trying to be harsh, but I think you need to begin protecting yourself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happyman64

Lost

I think you have a game plan. Honest and open communication with your wife is key.

She truly needs professional help as well and I think you should keep encouraging her to get that help for herself.

Stay firm.

Set those boundaries, communicate them to your wife and let her know what the consequences will be if she breaks them.

I am leaving you with one of my favorite quotes from a great shrink. Maybe you can encourage your wife to read up on some of these same lessons.

I think it applies to your wife. You guys married young and infidelity is very common in a family that has a special needs child.

Google it.

Good Luck

HM

*"Very often we don’t go elsewhere because we are looking for another person. We go elsewhere because we are looking for another self. It isn’t so much that we want to leave the person we are with as we want to leave the person we have become."




by Esther Perel*


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## turnera

bandit.45 said:


> I'm for you and your WW reconciling if she is willing to own her sh!t and do the hard work to address her issues. If she is proving to you, through her actions, every single day, that she is committed to fixing herself and saving the marriage, then I am all for you trying to R. But she has to honestly want it, and be ready to walk through hell and back with you to achieve it. There can be no half measures on her part. You have to determine whether she is all in, or just stringing you along.


Something to remember is time. 

It's really EASY to SAY - and even ACT - all remorseful. And they may even MEAN it.

But over time, you'll be able to tell if it was a momentary reaction - fear - to losing you. It's human nature to take others for granted over time. She did it once. Will she do it again? Time will tell.

If, 6 months from now, 2 years from now, if she's still GRATEFUL to be with you, then her remorse is real and you may have a chance. If, however, a year from now she's gone back to normal, not paying particular attention to you, it was probably just temporary fear and she did not WANT TO DO THE WORK to change who she is.

IIWY, I would make it clear you won't be deciding any time soon if you WILL keep her. She needs to hear that. More than once.


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## turnera

lost in Iowa said:


> She asked me last night if my investigation into what she was doing is over


Also tell her that FORMER WWs don't ASK that. And that the more she asks THAT, the less you believe she's a FORMER cheater.


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## VFW

Iowa, you are going to hear a wide variety opinions on a public forum and you choose what advice you accept and apply. Many people are one and done people that is just who they are, while others attempt to reconcile. There is no right or wrong to either decision, it is completely up to you. Still reconciliation is not without its dangers as it opens you up to the possibility of more heart ache as the overall success rates of reconciliation are not all that good. Personally, you know your wife better than I so the choice to divorce or reconcile are all on your shoulders as only you can determine if she is a good risk. 

Mr Blunt makes a good point that she has to be accountable for her actions. Sweep this affair under the rug and there is a high probability of it happening again. I imagine that is what happened after the first episode, and here you are again. You are not investigating her, this is necessary for healing to help you regain confidence in the relationship. She is proving herself worthy day after day. There should be no secret media or passwords between you two, some days you may check and with each successful check you find more and more days when you don’t need to check. Additionally, you have already seen the benefit to good communication that helps you to understand the other and put measures in place to strengthen the relationship. Over all you have done well, but don’t sweep this under the rug.


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## farsidejunky

turnera said:


> Also tell her that FORMER WWs don't ASK that. And that the more she asks THAT, the less you believe she's a FORMER cheater.


Soak this in OP. 

When she is asking a question like this, it is showing a LACK of remorse. 

Keep digging.


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## phillybeffandswiss

VFW said:


> You are not investigating her, this is necessary for healing to help you regain confidence in the relationship.


Yes, which means he is investigating her.

Anyway, do you mind detailing your EA? From your perspective, not what you have read, learned or been told to say.


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## lost in Iowa

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Yes, which means he is investigating her.
> 
> Anyway, do you mind detailing your EA? From your perspective, not what you have read, learned or been told to say.


I had always planned to continue looking into my wife's actions, I reread the emails they sent one another, looking for clues. But it is very difficult to read them and not think, "why is she doing these things for him, and not me?" The part that is scary, is it would be very easy for her to email the OM from her work computer, I have her log in name and code, but she could have very easily send him and email and then deleted it, go into the trash file, and delete from there, gone forever. That is what bothers me, ****ing technology these days. She says she has not contacted the other man, she is still locked out of her old gmail account, but she could set up a new one, dumb luck, I found her fancynancy account. I did jump her this morning, when she said she had told her boss and another coworker, they wondered on Monday why she was not looking well. I told her, she should have told me, total transparency means telling me everything, and not having to ask. Last night I was asking her how she sent emails through her smart phone, I do not have a smart phone. She showed me how, and I told her to put in the first letter of his email, with was I, then I told her to put in the second a G, and there popped up his email address. I know phones will do this, did not surprise me, but did give me a flashback, had another today, and I told her why.

As to my EA, she was a coach like I was, we hated each other when we met. We would be at the same coaches parties after games, my wife, rarely goes to the games I coach, and over the span of a year or so we started talking. The next year, she was coaching ms basketball, the other coach was let go, and they asked me to fill in, I said yes, we coached together, talked and that is how it started. This went on for another year or two, not full time, but we became friends, started to go out, have a beer together, and we just went from there. She was also the assistant softball coach, the head coach was one of best friends, he developed lung cancer and needed help with the kids. He asked me to help out, he did not trust her, so we spent a lot of time together. As the HC grow worse with cancer, it brought us closer together, and away if went. My wife found out the next year, and I broke is off, truthfully our last night together, we had decided to end it, and stop seeing one another. My wife met the gal, she was the exact opposite of my wife, and even my wife knew we were getting too close, my wife commented a few times "she would be everything you would look for in a wife, isn't she?" Tall, slender, athletic, enjoys sports, and I can say now, Yes, she was. I do not think about her, last time I heard she was married and has a couple of children, hope she is doing well.


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## lost in Iowa

As I reread what I just wrote about my EA, and the gal being the exact opposite of my wife, I think that the guy she was emailing is the exact opposite of me. He is short 5'4 or so, I am 6'1, he works in the medical field, I teach and coach. He travels all over America, from city to city, I work, and then come home to my wife. I lead a pretty boring life, I no longer go out and drink after my games, I come home, my perfect day would be staying at home, watching tv, and be with my family.


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## phillybeffandswiss

lost in Iowa said:


> This went on for another year or two, not full time, but we became friends, started to go out, have a beer together, and we just went from there. She was also the assistant softball coach, the head coach was one of best friends, he developed lung cancer and needed help with the kids. He asked me to help out, he did not trust her, so we spent a lot of time together. As the HC grow worse with cancer, it brought us closer together, and away if went. My wife found out the next year, and I broke is off, truthfully our last night together,.


 I am not excusing her actions, but I don't know you and the vagueness of "we just went from there" and "away it went" would irritate me to the point of leaving. No offense, but I'd be thinking you had a physical affair.

How were you caught?


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## ConanHub

You aren't too old to start over.

You rug swept her disgusting behavior five years ago. She cheats and you have to prove how much you love her? "SLAP!!!!" THANK You MAY I HAVE ANOTHER?

She doesn't respect you and it is very clear why. She has shown you that she can fvck another man and make you beg for the leftovers.

If you won't divorce her, start sleeping with other women or shut up and just keep putting up with it because she is damn sure going to keep being a skank.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ConanHub

BTW. If you can't tell, my advice was sarcasm.

You absolutely need to blow her world up and exposure as well as having D papers served are two great "wake up" tools in your arsenal.

She needs serious repercussions for her vile behavior.

If you aren't willing to give her the equivalent of a hard kick in the ass, she will more than likely never respect you.

Stand up for yourself. Read No More Mr. Nice Guy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hardtohandle

Lost in Iowa

I want you dearly to succeed.. 

But if you or your spouse think or can fool you that 4 or 5 or 10 visits to the therapist will fix this.. You are fooling yourself and/or she is trying to fool you.. This is years of work to figure out what really deep down is broken in your spouse.. My spouse fooled me and the therapist.. She lied to both of us to keep us both at bay..

Trust me when I tell you. I went to therapy every time.. I remember my friend telling me the time before this last time, that he felt we came out of that issue very strong as a couple.. 

Lost in Iowa another friend of mine just recently told me he was jealous of me and my wife because we were the couple at parties hugging and kissing all the time.. It had me fooled also.. 

All I can say is you need address this like a cancer on your marriage and you need to address this aggressively as such.. 

At the age of 48 I am upset because I have been through this numerous times in my life with my Ex wife and hindsight being 20/20 as it is.. I wish I would have suffered through this earlier in my life then now.. Because yea, part of me feels old and it feels like time wasted.. I also know that I am not over it and it's been over 2 years and I have been through another relationship that only reopened old wounds.. Even though I ended this relationship myself... It still hurts.. 

I would have rather broken up with my Ex wife when I was 40 and not 45.. This way I could have been maybe fixed in my head a bit more at 45 instead of going through all this pain now.. 

Sadly I have become institutionalized as well.. I feel the need for a wife and a woman next to me.. I'm not used to sleeping alone without my wife near me.. 

Do you know almost 20 years later, there were times I would wake up or go to bed and just look at my wife.. Look at how beautiful she was.. The curve of her waist. 

That was the same with my GirlFriend.. She would wake up and catch me looking at her.. She would ask, What are you doing ? I would tell her, Just looking how beautiful you look. Sorry I can't help it.. She would look at the time and see it was 3AM or something like that.. She would hug me and we would make love.. 

So trust me I get your pain and your worry.. 

Like I said if my Ex wife only understood that pain as well.. 

Sadly that old saying is true.. You have to be willing to lose it to save it.. 

Turnera just recommended me a book in my own thread and I ordered it right up the minute I read her post.. Because I want to be happy again as well. Sort of magic and voodoo I will read anything that will give me insight..

All I ask is you don't keep compromising, that you don't keep drawing that line in the sand and then stepping back to draw another one.. I know its hard to accept, but trust me it will hurt you more than help you.


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## lost in Iowa

There will no compromises by me, and the line is FIRMLY drawn in the sand, I have told my WW this many times the past few days, I mean it. If I have to destroy her life with our two sons, then so be it. I do not want to, but she will stop her actions or we are through. Can she change, no one knows, but God willing, we are going to try and hope for the best.


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## bandit.45

Well, you need to dig more. 

Get some advice from the eggheads here on TAM how to get past computer lockouts, retrieve data, and get into that phone of hers. There are a lot of guys here who know their sh!t. 

Do not take anything she says to you at face value. VERIFY EVERYTHING. Trust nothing. You need to make it very clear to her that she is on probation, for a good five years at least. She destroyed your trust twice so far, and it will not be granted freely anymore. Make her understand that gone are the days when she can freely call who she wants to, go wherever she wants to, talk to whomever she wants to without asking you first. For a good year at least, she needs to make you aware of her whereabouts, allow you full unfettered access to her phone and computer, and submit to whatever requirements you lay down. She either agrees to this scrutiny or she packs her sh!t and leaves. It's that simple. 

This, on top of intensive individual counseling, is the only way you will have a chance of saving this marriage and getting her to become the safe partner you need her to be.


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## weightlifter

Understand. CWI is like watching a horror movie. We've seen it all. We try to get people to NOT do what we know has failed almost every time it's been tried.

Looking at this, my gut says this is not just her second rodeo. It's the second you know about. My gut is not wrong much. Sorry.


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## ConanHub

Actions speak so much louder than words.

At least have D papers drawn up and served. Let her know that the only one who can stop the divorce from going through is a woman who can't keep her pants on.

Tell her that, given her track record, odds are pretty good she will lose her marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Nucking Futs

weightlifter said:


> Understand. CWI is like watching a horror movie. We've seen it all. We try to get people to NOT do what we know has failed almost every time it's been tried.
> 
> Looking at this, my gut says this is not just her second rodeo. It's the second you know about. My gut is not wrong much. Sorry.


Our guts are singing in harmony.


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## Lostinthought61

Iowa, I know you want to save your marriage, and I get that, but you are only half of that equation, the other half of that equation requires her to also want to save the marriage and on her part that requires a lot of work......has she told you she is willing to do anything to save the marriage.....and I mean anything....or is she only willing to the minimum in order to get the monkey (you and this affair) off her back. Ask her is she willing to have a polygraph if she has told you everything?


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## lost in Iowa

Xenote said:


> Iowa, I know you want to save your marriage, and I get that, but you are only have of that equation, the other half of that equation requires her to also want to save the marriage and on her part that requires a lot of work......has she told you she is willing to do anything to save the marriage.....and I mean anything....or is she only willing to the minimum in order to get the monkey (you and this affair) off her back. Ask her is she willing to have a polygraph if she has told you everything?


Yes, she has told and shown me she is willing to save our marriage, polygraph is out of the question, because of location. Can we save our marriage, I have told her, it's up to her. She has been transparent, given me her log in codes, she has started journaling, allowing me to read what she has written. We are trying, that is all I can ask.


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## lost in Iowa

phillybeffandswiss said:


> I am not excusing her actions, but I don't know you and the vagueness of "we just went from there" and "away it went" would irritate me to the point of leaving. No offense, but I'd be thinking you had a physical affair.
> 
> How were you caught?


I was vague here, my wife knows the truth, I told her everything, I never did sleep with the gal, we were close, we kissed and made out like teenagers, but that is as far as it went. I am really glad that I did not sleep with her.


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## bandit.45

Well, kissing means it was a physical affair. 

So you downplayed it. 

Own your sh!t man. It went physical, and admit you would have slept with her had circumstances led you that direction. 

You cannot ask her to own her bad behavior unless you level with yourself and admit the affair you had was a physical one. To many people her on TAM, kissing is actually a far more intimate act than screwing. Maybe this is the way your wife thinks also. 

Be that as it may, you both need to get into counseling and get these destructive behaviors hashed out if you want to save this marriage.


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## lost in Iowa

bandit.45 said:


> Well, kissing means it was a physical affair.
> 
> So you downplayed it.
> 
> Own your sh!t man. It went physical, and admit you would have slept with her had circumstances led you that direction.
> 
> You cannot ask her to own her bad behavior unless you level with yourself and admit the affair you had was a physical one. To many people her on TAM, kissing is actually a far more intimate act than screwing. Maybe this is the way your wife thinks also.
> 
> Be that as it may, you both need to get into counseling and get these destructive behaviors hashed out if you want to save this marriage.


We start counseling on the 21st, earliest we could, and no I do not think kissing is the same thing as ****ing. Sorry, I just do not, I have had over twenty years to think about my actions, if I could, I would take them back, but I cannot. That is the thing about life, you live and learn. I have never done anything like it since, and do not plan to change that now. I am not making excuses for what I did, I confessed, told her everything, and I have tried to be the best husband and father to our children that I could be. I have already said I no longer go out after games, come straight home, and have been totally transparent in my actions for the past 20 years. I have learned, and want to be happy with my wife and our marriage. She is trying, I know that, I told her tonight, I am not worried about today, tomorrow or next week. I worry about next year or the year after, when she starts to have an urge to go into fantasy land, where everything is perfect, and she draws away from me. That is what I hope the counseling will help with, cure no, my wife will never be cured of this, anymore than a drug addict or an alcoholic are cured. I am sure it will be day to day struggle at times, but I want to be there for her. I have checked all her emails, I have tried to contact his wife. I am not perfect, and do not expect her to be, but I do expect her to reach for me, talk to me, not someone of the internet. I told her tonight, I am here, I have always been here, reach out to me, not bare your soul to some stranger on the internet.


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## VFW

lost in Iowa said:


> She is trying, I know that, I told her tonight, I am not worried about today, tomorrow or next week. I worry about next year or the year after, when she starts to have an urge to go into fantasy land, where everything is perfect, and she draws away from me. That is what I hope the counseling will help with, cure no, my wife will never be cured of this, anymore than a drug addict or an alcoholic are cured.


This is what I was referring to when I said it is not an investigation, they have a beginning and an end. This is a way of life, of open communication that allows you see what is going on without secrets. Additionally, I think should be a two way street, you have her passwords and she has yours. She may say, but I don't want or need to look at your information. That is probably true today, but she sure would have when she had doubts about you. 

The difference is you want to be her husband, not her jailer or control her. No this is accountability on both sides. I believe your concerns are well founded as well. She now is remorseful, so is amiable to your concerns, but what about down the road. You have to decide if you think she is a good risk or not. I believe that most relationships can be fixed if both parties work to fix the problems. The fact that you are both working to fix the problem is encouraging. Best wishes for your family.


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## Graywolf2

VFW said:


> The difference is you want to be her husband, not her jailer or control her.


I agree with this. Checking up on your spouse is work and you have better things to do. Make sure that your wife knows this and that you’re doing her a favor by monitoring her. 

It’s like hiding the booze which is work you shouldn’t have to do. Monitoring her is NOT a punishment for her it’s a punishment for you.


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## Mr Blunt

> I am not worried about today, tomorrow or next week. I worry about next year or the year after, when she starts to have an urge to go into fantasy land, where everything is perfect, and she draws away from me.


Make sure she understands the consequences this year, next year and the next 50 years of going into fantasy land and bringing in another man and that you WILL not back down. Have your consequences lined up and be strong enough to enforce them should you need to; no compromises!


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## phillybeffandswiss

lost in Iowa said:


> I was vague here, my wife knows the truth, I told her everything, I never did sleep with the gal, we were close, we kissed and made out like teenagers, but that is as far as it went. I am really glad that I did not sleep with her.


Sorry, to me, emotional intimacy with groping and kissing is a physical affair.

Anyway, so she forgave you and you forgave her. Equally forgiven, equally damaged.


Now, this is affair is a new wrinkle on its own. You need to decide if this is how you want to live. She became much better at hiding after counseling. Do you want to risk repeating the cycle and being that much older?


----------



## Chaparral

How far back have you checked her phone records and emails? I totally believe that is why she asked if you are still investigating.

AND do not tell her anything you are doing again like telling her you were going to contact his wife or that you are still investigating. How could you think its smart to tell someone you're sneaking up on them?


----------



## lost in Iowa

Chaparral said:


> How far back have you checked her phone records and emails? I totally believe that is why she asked if you are still investigating.
> 
> AND do not tell her anything you are doing again like telling her you were going to contact his wife or that you are still investigating. How could you think its smart to tell someone you're sneaking up on them?


I have only looked at her cell phone records back to Oct. of 2014, they were not talking much on the phone, I know of two occasions that they spoke on the phone, one for four minutes another for 57 minutes. They might have skyped one another. I reread 150 emails they sent to one another tonight, starting at the oldest one, the ones before that were deleted from the file, and the garbage, no way of getting them back. With the emails, I am not worried about the few times they talked on the phone, the emails make clear what is going on, and how they are feeling. Will say that they were emailing almost daily, sometimes more than once in a day.


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## Mr Blunt

LostinIowa
Do not forget to build yourself up. You can have an impact on your wife to a certain extent but she is the one that has to make the real hard changes all by her. If you build yourself up then you will be able to make it either way in a D or an R. I know that you are very concerned about your wife but you are more important to you right now. Help your wife al that you can but not at the expense of you not building yourself up.

You know that your wife is weak and that she is capable of succumbing to her weakness so make sure that you get yourself as strong as possible. If your wife shows you for the next 3-30 years that she is going to make you and her children number one and keep other men out of her life then you will have an even better R with you being stronger


----------



## Chaparral

Actually, I was thinking you need to go back past this current affair to check cell records, emails, Facebook etc.

You seem to know how far this affair went. My concern is that she's afraid you will find out about others.

One possibility is to go through her older phones.

Don't forget that cheaters put affair partner numbers under different names. Check for a high quantity of calls/texts to certain numbers.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Chaparral said:


> Actually, I was thinking you need to go back past this current affair to check cell records, emails, Facebook etc.
> *
> You seem to know how far this affair went. My concern is that she's afraid you will find out about others.*
> 
> One possibility is to go through her older phones.
> 
> Don't forget that cheaters put affair partner numbers under different names. Check for a high quantity of calls/texts to certain numbers.


That's what I thought too.


----------



## lost in Iowa

I truly think she only had the one EA, when I think back to the PA, five years ago, it was a very short thing. A salesman walks into her office in April of 2010, they started talking, he is flirting with her, she even said "no one has ever flirted with me before," she liked the attention and they slept together a month later I knew the day they did it, and was half an hour late from catching them together. She admitted the whole thing, her words were "I just wanted to see what it would be like to sleep with someone else." We tried counseling, and I have stated I did not like the guy. We talked and I thought we had worked everything out. The next year I lost my job and was unemployed for a year, this is when she started looking for a pen pal, someone that she could confine in and that is how it started. I am not excusing her actions, I was at a low point in my life and instead of comforting me, she turned her emotions inside herself and went into a fantasy world. Talking to a man 1150 miles away, she said the reason she chose him, was the odds that they could ever meet was low. But I suppose as they chatted more on line, they became closer together, and I know she stated thinking about how their lives could be together. It would never happen, she would not leave her children here in Iowa, and he would not leave his job and family on the East Coast. In the end, they did finally meet, I have asked my wife, was he the one, and she was said no, her words he was kind of dweeby very nervous personality type. She still continued to write and talk to him, but there was no future together, it was all her fantasy. Tonight, my son, daughter in law and new born grandson came down to spend the night, my wife was holding our grandson, two weeks old, and I asked her "how much are you enjoying this?" she was brimming with pleasure, and then I told her " this is what you will be giving up?" Not only me, but our kids, grandkids and future grandkids. My comment just sucked the joy out of her face, and I thought she was going to cry, holding our new grandson, but I am right, either stop what you are doing, or all of this will be taken away and just be a fantasy.


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## MEM2020

Sir,
You may be in Iowa but I don't think you are lost at all. 

You sound like a very solid, honest guy. 

I will tell you this - and I want you to take it to heart. There are likely some things you can do differently that will make your marriage better for your wife. 

See the thing is - it's real easy to get into this pattern:

I'm angry and hurt and need to hear you apologize for the 299th time....

Instead of this:

If you're actually sorry - prove it by being painfully honest about what it is you really want, you're not getting from me. 

------
By the way, that second approach doesn't absolve her actions AT ALL. It does however reduce the chances you'll be back here in a few years. 







lost in Iowa said:


> We start counseling on the 21st, earliest we could, and no I do not think kissing is the same thing as ****ing. Sorry, I just do not, I have had over twenty years to think about my actions, if I could, I would take them back, but I cannot. That is the thing about life, you live and learn. I have never done anything like it since, and do not plan to change that now. I am not making excuses for what I did, I confessed, told her everything, and I have tried to be the best husband and father to our children that I could be. I have already said I no longer go out after games, come straight home, and have been totally transparent in my actions for the past 20 years. I have learned, and want to be happy with my wife and our marriage. She is trying, I know that, I told her tonight, I am not worried about today, tomorrow or next week. I worry about next year or the year after, when she starts to have an urge to go into fantasy land, where everything is perfect, and she draws away from me. That is what I hope the counseling will help with, cure no, my wife will never be cured of this, anymore than a drug addict or an alcoholic are cured. I am sure it will be day to day struggle at times, but I want to be there for her. I have checked all her emails, I have tried to contact his wife. I am not perfect, and do not expect her to be, but I do expect her to reach for me, talk to me, not someone of the internet. I told her tonight, I am here, I have always been here, reach out to me, not bare your soul to some stranger on the internet.


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## bandit.45

"I just wanted to see what it would be like to sleep with someone else."



WTF?

"Hmm. Yeah. I wanted to see what it would be like to pour gasoline on my front porch and light it while my husband and kids were inside the house eating dinner..." 


"Hmm. Yeah. I wanted to see what it would be like to steal a diamond tennis bracelet out of the display cabinet at the Dillard's store when no one was looking."

"Hmm. Yeah. I wanted to see what it would be like if I chopped your finger off with a cleaver while you were sitting at the table eating your soup." 

Is your wife a fvcking retard?


----------



## lost in Iowa

bandit.45 said:


> "I just wanted to see what it would be like to sleep with someone else."
> 
> 
> 
> WTF?
> 
> "Hmm. Yeah. I wanted to see what it would be like to pour gasoline on my front porch and light it while my husband and kids were inside the house eating dinner..."
> 
> 
> "Hmm. Yeah. I wanted to see what it would be like to steal a diamond tennis bracelet out of the display cabinet at the Dillard's store when no one was looking."
> 
> "Hmm. Yeah. I wanted to see what it would be like if I chopped your finger off with a cleaver while you were sitting at the table eating your soup."
> 
> Is your wife a fvcking retard?


We married very young, and we were each others only partner until my wife slept with the other guy. She was hitting 50, depressed and looking back now having a mid life crisis. But whatever, I did attempt to call the guys wife yesterday, I laid it out there and left a message on their machine. I knew from reading my wife's emails he travels most of the week, and on the message I told his wife what has been happening, and to look at her facebook page, I had left her a message. Well, she read the message and sent three back last night, that I saw this morning. I gave her the password to read the emails between them and she is going to confront him this weekend, when he gets home. We are also now friends on facebook, so we can keep each other informed on what is going on.
I wish her luck. Thanks again.


----------



## Lostinthought61

so after she slept with him did she feel any different, was it all that she had expected? did you have that talk?


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## lost in Iowa

Xenote said:


> so after she slept with him did she feel any different, was it all that she had expected? did you have that talk?


No, she meet in at the door in tears, she knew that I had already found out, we sat down, and I told her to tell me all about it. She was caught up in the moment, they had planned to meet that day in 2010, came back to our house, went upstairs in one of the kids rooms and ****ed. What can I say, she said he was so small that she could barely feel him, and it was nothing like the fantasy she thought it would be. I asked her just how small was he, and she stated could not have been more than two inches, fully erect. She ****ed up and admitted to doing it, did not try to hide what she had done. I had hoped that she would be a changed woman, but now I realize that she really needs help and may be suffering from depression again, she is currently taking Paxil, to calm her nerves.


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## Chaparral

They always say the other man was small and a bad lay when they don't want to leave. Just saying.


----------



## naiveonedave

lost in Iowa said:


> No, she meet in at the door in tears, she knew that I had already found out, we sat down, and I told her to tell me all about it. She was caught up in the moment, they had planned to meet that day in 2010, came back to our house, went upstairs in one of the kids rooms and ****ed. What can I say, she said he was so small that she could barely feel him, and it was nothing like the fantasy she thought it would be. I asked her just how small was he, and she stated could not have been more than two inches, fully erect. She ****ed up and admitted to doing it, did not try to hide what she had done. I had hoped that she would be a changed woman, but now I realize that she really needs help and may be suffering from depression again, she is currently taking Paxil, to calm her nerves.


remember cheaters lie. She is trying to minimize your pain.


----------



## bandit.45

Yep. There was nothing sexually wrong with the guy. What she told you was script.


----------



## lost in Iowa

bandit.45 said:


> Yep. There was nothing sexually wrong with the guy. What she told you was script.


You may be right, I have been following the trust but verify code. During our talks the past week, we did talk about the first man, she again stated he was very small. Maybe she is minimizing his size, do not know and do not care. I am more worried about this current mess, then someone that she has not had contact with for five years. I did call the other man's boss and we talked about what his employee had done. He called my wife's employer, and they wanted to know, if they could still do business together, the man would no longer be allowed to talk to my wife, and if her explorer saw him talking to her, to contact them, and he would be fired.


----------



## alte Dame

I agree with others here that there is more that she is hiding, perhaps other accounts similar to the fancynancy account.

You are telling her now that you simply don't know how you feel regarding your future together, that you might decide, given her behavior, that it is over. That is with two affairs in the last five years. If there is more, then it stands to reason that your balance will be tipped.

I think you owe it to yourself - your own happiness, your own peace of mind - to keep digging. If you can, surprise her at work, sit next to her and make her show you her work e-mail. Use all her known e-mail addresses and do a search on known trouble sites like AM and AFF, plus standard dating sites.

I think there's a definite possibility that you have more on your plate than you think you do & if it's true, it would be game-changing for you.


----------



## lost in Iowa

alte Dame said:


> I agree with others here that there is more that she is hiding, perhaps other accounts similar to the fancynancy account.
> 
> You are telling her now that you simply don't know how you feel regarding your future together, that you might decide, given her behavior, that it is over. That is with two affairs in the last five years. If there is more, then it stands to reason that your balance will be tipped.
> 
> I think you owe it to yourself - your own happiness, your own peace of mind - to keep digging. If you can, surprise her at work, sit next to her and make her show you her work e-mail. Use all her known e-mail addresses and do a search on known trouble sites like AM and AFF, plus standard dating sites.
> 
> I think there's a definite possibility that you have more on your plate than you think you do & if it's true, it would be game-changing for you.


I have her work email and password to get into the site, I have looked before and saw nothing. I have tried finding her on the site she met Mark on, nothing there. They found each other on the site, and then started talking via their gmail accounts after that. When I asked her about the single site, she said that she deactivated her account. I am only guessing here, but for accounts like this, if you have not logged in for weeks or months the account will be taken out the system, unless you would log back in, just like a gmail account. I have tried, found nothing. I am still digging but it is getting hard to find out anymore, the emails before May of 2014 have been deleted, wish I could get them back, but they are gone.


----------



## GusPolinski

lost in Iowa said:


> We married very young, and we were each others only partner until my wife slept with the other guy. She was hitting 50, depressed and looking back now having a mid life crisis. But whatever, I did attempt to call the guys wife yesterday, I laid it out there and left a message on their machine. I knew from reading my wife's emails he travels most of the week, and on the message I told his wife what has been happening, and to look at her facebook page, I had left her a message. Well, she read the message and sent three back last night, that I saw this morning. *I gave her the password to read the emails between them* and she is going to confront him this weekend, when he gets home. We are also now friends on facebook, so we can keep each other informed on what is going on.
> I wish her luck. Thanks again.


Uhhh... that was bad. You should've just forwarded the e-mails to her.

Get back into the account and change the password.


----------



## GusPolinski

lost in Iowa said:


> No, she meet in at the door in tears, she knew that I had already found out, we sat down, and I told her to tell me all about it. She was caught up in the moment, *they had planned to meet that day in 2010, came back to our house, went upstairs in one of the kids rooms and ****ed.* What can I say, she said he was so small that she could barely feel him, and it was nothing like the fantasy she thought it would be. I asked her just how small was he, and she stated could not have been more than two inches, fully erect. She ****ed up and admitted to doing it, did not try to hide what she had done. I had hoped that she would be a changed woman, but now I realize that she really needs help and may be suffering from depression again, she is currently taking Paxil, to calm her nerves.


In your kid's room..?!?

Wow.


----------



## lost in Iowa

GusPolinski said:


> In your kid's room..?!?
> 
> Wow.


Our children are grown, married and are out of the house, so while it was our child's room, today its a spare bedroom. Could have been worse, they could have ****ed in our bedroom. Today, I have a hard time going into the room five years later, and I never lay down in that bed.


----------



## bandit.45

lost in Iowa said:


> Our children are grown, married and are out of the house, so while it was our child's room, today its a spare bedroom. Could have been worse, they could have ****ed in our bedroom. Today, I have a hard time going into the room five years later, and I never lay down in that bed.


They probably did fvck in the marital bed and she's lying some more. 

I'd burn every damn mattress in that house. Just take em out back and have a mattress bonfire. Throw your wedding pictures and album on the conflagration while your at it.


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## farsidejunky

LII, your wife is clearly not who you think she is. 

I know Gus is helping you. That is good, because I have a significant sum of money that what you know about only scratches the surface.


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## Wiredtired

If she cheated on you only once, then I'd say fix this....forgive her, go to counseling and move on with the marriage. But twice? If she didn't learn something the first time, then she won't the second, third, etc....Divorce her and move on with your life.


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## GusPolinski

farsidejunky said:


> LII, your wife is clearly not who you think she is.
> 
> I know Gus is helping you. That is good, because I have a significant sum of money that what you know about only scratches the surface.


Huh? You might be confusing LII w/ @ConfusedCanadian.

That said, I'm here if you need any tech-related tips or insight, LII.


----------



## Young at Heart

lost in Iowa said:


> .... *If I have to destroy her life with our two sons, then so be it.* I do not want to, but she will stop her actions or we are through. Can she change, no one knows, but God willing, we are going to try and hope for the best.





lost in Iowa said:


> ...It would never happen, she would not leave her children here in Iowa....
> 
> ....Tonight, my son, daughter in law and new born grandson came down to spend the night, my wife was holding our grandson, two weeks old, and I asked her "how much are you enjoying this?" she was brimming with pleasure, and then I told her *" this is what you will be giving up?" *Not only me, but our kids, grandkids and future grandkids. My comment just sucked the joy out of her face, and I thought she was going to cry, holding our new grandson, *but I am right,* either stop what you are doing, or all of this will be taken away and just be a fantasy.


I understand that I have a different perspective than most. However, I would ask that you look closely at parts of what you have posted. Yes, pointing out to her that affairs will result in situations like holding a grandchild may be part of the price for affairs. I think that was fine, if done in private.

However, it is really the choice of the granchild's parents who they let into their child's life. You may not and should not try to influence that decision by making them take sides.

I would also ask that you do some introspection on your statement about destroying her life with your two sons. Again, as a good father, you should not make your children take sides in a marital dispute between you and your cheating wife. Gettimg their sympathy and moral support is fine, but don't make them take sides in the form of excluding your cheating wife from their lives. She is the mother of those two boys, no matter how badly she behaved, she will always be those boys mother and nothing you can or should do will change that.

If you ultimately divorce and the two of you live long enough for a grandchild to get married, it would be nice for the both of you to be invited to the wedding and be civil to each other during the cerimony. 

Good luck to you, I hope you are able to save your marriage.


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## Dyokemm

LiI,

Did you inform OMW that her POS WH is using a burner phone?

And make sure you keep in touch with OMW.

I know you think your WW is being truthful about this meetup she had with POS just being a make-out session....but you never know what OMW may be able to wring out of her WH after she confronts.

She may discover details that your WW is trying to hide because she KNOWS that her happy family life would be in serious jeopardy of ending if you discovered them.

You reminded her of this with your comment when she was holding your grandson....but don't fool yourself into thinking that she was not already well aware of this fact.

She is minimizing and trying to rugsweep fast because she has been very conscious of this fact since you first discovered the A.


----------



## lost in Iowa

bandit.45 said:


> They probably did fvck in the marital bed and she's lying some more.
> 
> I'd burn every damn mattress in that house. Just take em out back and have a mattress bonfire. Throw your wedding pictures and album on the conflagration while your at it.


You know bandit 45 you are a really pissed of guy, I really think someone has hurt you very deeply in the past, and now you are transforming that hurt to every situation. Take the mattresses outside and burn them, throw our wedding photos on top. Whether you agree with what I am doing right or wrong in my situation, please understand I am the one that gets to make that decision. I want to hear opinions, helpful strategies, but I do not need to here sarcastic remarks about me or for that matter my wife.


----------



## bandit.45

lost in Iowa said:


> You know bandit 45 you are a really pissed of guy, I really think someone has hurt you very deeply in the past, and now you are transforming that hurt to every situation. Take the mattresses outside and burn them, throw our wedding photos on top. Whether you agree with what I am doing right or wrong in my situation, please understand I am the one that gets to make that decision. I want to hear opinions, helpful strategies, but I do not need to here sarcastic remarks about me or for that matter my wife.


Oh...believe me sir, I am not being sarcastic. 

What you call sarcastic I call taking a stand. What I'm trying to get through to you is that you need to take everything your WW tells you with a bucketful of salt. If your WW was my WW, I would tell her flat out I do not believe her story about having sex with the guy on the child's bed. I would flat get in her face and tell her she is a damn liar and that I am not an idiot, whether she is lying or not. 

Because what it boils down to is demonstrating, very clearly to your WW, that her words are no longer inviolate. Those days of blind trust are gone. Once you make her painfully aware that she will have to spend years proving every word she says to you, then true R will never occur whether you two divorce or stay together. Is that over the top? You bet. Because if you want to save the relationship, or build a new one, she has to learn to respect you, and know that you are a man who keeps his promises. 

You have to make her EARN her trust back.

And yes I am pissed. I'm pissed for you. One of us needs to be.


----------



## lost in Iowa

Bandit, I have told my wife that the days of me just trusting her are now gone, believe me, we are talking, meaning I question, she answers, and then I go and find if what she said was 100% truthful. So far, she has been, when I use her codes and passwords, they work, I have read the emails between them over and over, hell, I think I remember the emails better than she does. To the posture that mentioned me forcing my children to chose, I would never do that, its either her or me. I am saying it would be very difficult for even grown children like mine to look at their mother the same as before. I do not want to put her or us through that pain for them if I do not have too.


----------



## Dyokemm

LiI,

I think bandit 45 has a point here....I think you do need to get a little angrier here to impress upon your WW just how dangerously close to losing her family she is.

She is a SERIAL CHEATER....this is the second time in 5 years that she has threatened, through her choices and actions, to destroy your and her 'golden' years'.

You need her to realize in no uncertain terms that there will NEVER be another chance....and that she had better start doing EVERYTHING she can to not waste this last opportunity to save her M.

Right now, what she has seen and knows is a BH who has now TWICE overlooked and quickly tried to move past her betrayals, fearful of losing his M and family.

Yeah...you have been angry and upset....but she has no real fear that she is going to lose her life as she knows it.

For her to really 'get it', she has to come face to face with that real possibility.


----------



## lost in Iowa

Dyokemm said:


> LiI,
> 
> Did you inform OMW that her POS WH is using a burner phone?
> 
> And make sure you keep in touch with OMW.
> 
> I know you think your WW is being truthful about this meetup she had with POS just being a make-out session....but you never know what OMW may be able to wring out of her WH after she confronts.
> 
> She may discover details that your WW is trying to hide because she KNOWS that her happy family life would be in serious jeopardy of ending if you discovered them.
> 
> You reminded her of this with your comment when she was holding your grandson....but don't fool yourself into thinking that she was not already well aware of this fact.
> 
> She is minimizing and trying to rugsweep fast because she has been very conscious of this fact since you first discovered the A.


Yes, I told the OMW about the burner phone, we just made contact last night through me leaving a message on their machine, telling her to go to her facebook page and find a message I had sent her.


----------



## Dyokemm

LiI,

Good.

Using a burner phone is usually a sign of a very experienced cheater....she needed to know that

And this is also the biggest red-flag I see for really believing your WW's account of their meet-up and him not wanting to take it full PA.

An experienced cheat WOULD NOT have those qualms or doubts.


----------



## bandit.45

lost in Iowa said:


> Bandit, I have told my wife that the days of me just trusting her are now gone, believe me, we are talking, meaning I question, she answers, and then I go and find if what she said was 100% truthful. So far, she has been, when I use her codes and passwords, they work, I have read the emails between them over and over, hell, I think I remember the emails better than she does. To the posture that mentioned me forcing my children to chose, I would never do that, its either her or me. I am saying it would be very difficult for even grown children like mine to look at their mother the same as before. I do not want to put her or us through that pain for them if I do not have too.


You are getting too old for this nonsense. Don't you think? This was the time in your life when you and your WW were supposed to be settling down, enjoying each other and having your second honeymoon. The kids are gone and its should have been all about rediscovering one another. 

Instead she goes out and acts like a freaking teenager, and she is still acting like one. Is she that afraid of growing old? What does she think she has missed in life?


----------



## GusPolinski

bandit.45 said:


> You are getting too old for this nonsense. Don't you think? This was the time in your life when you and your WW were supposed to be settling down, enjoying each other and having your second honeymoon. The kids are gone and its should have been all about rediscovering one another.
> 
> Instead she goes out and acts like a freaking teenager, and she is still acting like one. Is she that afraid of growing old? *What does she think she has missed in life?*


Must... not... comment...


----------



## Livvie

bandit.45 said:


> lost in Iowa said:
> 
> 
> 
> Bandit, I have told my wife that the days of me just trusting her are now gone, believe me, we are talking, meaning I question, she answers, and then I go and find if what she said was 100% truthful. So far, she has been, when I use her codes and passwords, they work, I have read the emails between them over and over, hell, I think I remember the emails better than she does. To the posture that mentioned me forcing my children to chose, I would never do that, its either her or me. I am saying it would be very difficult for even grown children like mine to look at their mother the same as before. I do not want to put her or us through that pain for them if I do not have too.
> 
> 
> 
> You are getting too old for this nonsense. Don't you think? This was the time in your life when you and your WW were supposed to be settling down, enjoying each other and having your second honeymoon. The kids are gone and its should have been all about rediscovering one another.
> 
> Instead she goes out and acts like a freaking teenager, and she is still acting like one. Is she that afraid of growing old? What does she think she has missed in life?
Click to expand...

The children are not gone...they have an adult child with special needs at home..


----------



## Doyle

Just want t say in defence of bandit I don't think he's saying these things to be a b*****d its about the tough love thing.


----------



## manfromlamancha

This is incredible! Your wife fvcked another man in your home and you are having a go at bandit for telling you to burn mattresses and go nuclear on your lying, cheating wife ????

He is trying to wake you up although you firmly want advice that lines up with how your wife is not "all that bad".

Bandit may be rough around the edges sometimes (sorry Bandit) but he is almost always right about these things - you would be foolish to ignore what he is telling you (to help you!)


----------



## longtermdude

Divorce, do not pass go, get a divorce. I am a long term PI and this stuff will never end, trust me. Divorce her.


----------



## ConanHub

lost in Iowa said:


> You know bandit 45 you are a really pissed of guy, I really think someone has hurt you very deeply in the past, and now you are transforming that hurt to every situation. Take the mattresses outside and burn them, throw our wedding photos on top. Whether you agree with what I am doing right or wrong in my situation, please understand I am the one that gets to make that decision. I want to hear opinions, helpful strategies, but I do not need to here sarcastic remarks about me or for that matter my wife.


Actually sounds like a good idea. Maybe just not for you.

Maybe it is really easy to cheat on you because you lack the passion required to have a bed bonfire. LOL!

Do you think your WW even views you as a mate or potential mate?

Me thinks you need to sharpen your animal instincts and passions.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## NoChoice

OP,
Would you say your wife displayed the behavior of a 45 - 50 year old married woman? Is it rational behavior to destroy one's honor by shattering solemn vows, totally disregard her mate's feelings, jeopardize her relationship with her children, expose herself to possible infection (and subsequently you), be deceitful and jeopardize her marriage, all for the experience of "seeing what it feels like to sleep with someone else"? If you see this behavior as reasonable and rational then I wish you a good evening and continued good fortune.

However, if you find those actions to be the antithesis of reasonable and rational then I ask you to consider that what we are telling you is that you are fighting fire with gasoline. You are trying to use logic and reason with someone who possess neither. Those tools will be mostly, if not completely, ineffective because in order for them to have influence the person being reasoned with must possess the ability to rationalize and think logically. She does not ( see above). 

So then, what we are trying to impress upon you is that you must use the tools that work or the project is doomed. How do you suppose your wife would react to seeing a huge fire in the back yard? And when she asked you what is going on you respond "those are the beds that you slept with other men in and I will not have them in my house". Do you believe that would get her undivided attention? Would she see you as someone not to be trifled with? Someone with very serious feelings about her infidelity? Might that thought come to her mind if she was ever tempted to stray again? I dare say it might. You must fight the battle with the weapons at your disposal. Did you handle her last indiscretion, five years ago, with reason and logic? How did that work out? Do you wish to repeat this scenario in a few more years?

This is the reason for the "tough love" advice. Not to belittle you or slander your wife but to try to help you not to ever have to post here again unless it is to offer advice to someone else needing help. That is the true intent of most, dare I say all, of those here as we respond to the last sentence of your initial post. Good fortune to you sir.


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## phillybeffandswiss

lost in Iowa said:


> Yes, I told the OMW about the burner phone, we just made contact last night through me leaving a message on their machine, telling her to go to her facebook page and find a message I had sent her.


Honestly, I hope she gives you any correspondence she finds. I don't believe, for one second, he used a burner phone and your wife didn't. If she continues contact, I'd ask his wife to share any numbers with you.


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## GusPolinski

Young at Heart said:


> I understand that I have a different perspective than most. However, I would ask that you look closely at parts of what you have posted. Yes, pointing out to her that affairs will result in situations like holding a grandchild may be part of the price for affairs. I think that was fine, if done in private.
> 
> However, it is really the choice of the granchild's parents who they let into their child's life. You may not and should not try to influence that decision by making them take sides.
> 
> I would also ask that you do some introspection on your statement about destroying her life with your two sons. Again, as a good father, you should not make your children take sides in a marital dispute between you and your cheating wife. Gettimg their sympathy and moral support is fine, but don't make them take sides in the form of excluding your cheating wife from their lives. She is the mother of those two boys, no matter how badly she behaved, she will always be those boys mother and nothing you can or should do will change that.
> 
> If you ultimately divorce and the two of you live long enough for a grandchild to get married, it would be nice for the both of you to be invited to the wedding and be civil to each other during the cerimony.
> 
> Good luck to you, I hope you are able to save your marriage.


To be fair, I read OP's comment to his WW about their grandchild as him telling her not that she'd risked having limited access -- or _no_ access -- to their grandchild (though that's certainly a valid point), but rather that, by way of her infidelity, she'd essentially gambled w/ the security and integrity (as in "togetherness", if that's a word) of her family.

And _repeatedly_.


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## Thor

longtermdude said:


> Divorce, do not pass go, get a divorce. I am a long term PI and this stuff will never end, trust me. Divorce her.


Your expertise could be very valuable to the forum. Especially on the Standard Evidence Post http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/209754-standard-evidence-post.html

Thanks for joining the forum.


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## farsidejunky

GusPolinski said:


> Huh? You might be confusing LII w/ @ConfusedCanadian.
> 
> That said, I'm here if you need any tech-related tips or insight, LII.


Yup. My fault.


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## Chaparral

"They met 2 hours away in April when she had to go to a meeting for a few days, according to the emails, they just talked, kissed and groped a little. The emails were clear, they did not sleep together, but my wife was more than willing. "

From your first post. How much travel for your business does she do? She was literally the one instigating sex with the OM. She also banged another man five years ago. She seems to be a perfect candidate for one night stands or getting picked up in hotel bars or clubs.

Does your wife do girls nights out?


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## lost in Iowa

Chaparral said:


> "They met 2 hours away in April when she had to go to a meeting for a few days, according to the emails, they just talked, kissed and groped a little. The emails were clear, they did not sleep together, but my wife was more than willing. "
> 
> From your first post. How much travel for your business does she do? She was literally the one instigating sex with the OM. She also banged another man five years ago. She seems to be a perfect candidate for one night stands or getting picked up in hotel bars or clubs.
> 
> Does your wife do girls nights out?


My wife works for the town we live in, she is the deputy clerk, so she will maybe do 5 one day meetings a year, and attend 1 or 2 three day meetings a year, most in Des Moines. When she does the daily meetings she will drive our vehicle a lot of times, but the overnight ones, she takes a city vehicle. I spoke to the OM wife last night on facebook, she confronted him yesterday, sounds like they are through. She did thank me for telling her, and I wished her the best of luck.


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## lost in Iowa

No she does not do girls night out.


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## Lostinthought61

Iowa,

was she still working for the city during that incident with the sales person, if she was , and i realize the damage to your marriage, but as a public servant her interaction with that sales person could have gotten her not only fired but charges could have been pressed against her.......if that were the case she is more reckless then i thought.


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## Kallan Pavithran

She ****ed someone five yrs ago, now she was chasing OM for a ***. Do you beleive that there was no A during this five yrs.

You are getting a lot of hard advice, we know you love your wife, scared to start over and want your old marriage back. Infidelity is an entirely different animal. it can hurt for yrs, we have seen posters coming here even after ten yrs. The hurt wont go away, it can be eased only by a truly remorseful spouse doing everything right for yrs.

Posters here dont see it in your wife to do the work for yrs, so they are asking you to get D.


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## lost in Iowa

bandit.45 said:


> You are getting too old for this nonsense. Don't you think? This was the time in your life when you and your WW were supposed to be settling down, enjoying each other and having your second honeymoon. The kids are gone and its should have been all about rediscovering one another.
> 
> Instead she goes out and acts like a freaking teenager, and she is still acting like one. Is she that afraid of growing old? What does she think she has missed in life?


Yes, I am getting too old for this ****, while we may never be true empty nesters, we are close. I know my special needs daughter puts strain on our marriage, but she is our daughter, our responsibility. When I read the emails they sent to one another, and talking to my wife, as well as the OM wife. I think they both started out just looking for someone to talk too, not excusing what they did, they should have both confided in their spouse, but they chose to talk to a total stranger on line. Once they had found each other, they left the site, and emailed on their gmail. Does show low character on both their accounts. I think the fantasy for my wife at least just started to build over time, while talking to him, she could be who ever she wanted and say things without any repercussions. Kind of like the Tom Hanks movies, You've got mail. Hopefully through counseling, talking to one another and tough love, we can get through this. We shall see.


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## lost in Iowa

Xenote said:


> Iowa,
> 
> was she still working for the city during that incident with the sales person, if she was , and i realize the damage to your marriage, but as a public servant her interaction with that sales person could have gotten her not only fired but charges could have been pressed against her.......if that were the case she is more reckless then i thought.


Yes, she still works for the same employer, the first guy was a salesman, his company had sold some type of water monitoring equipment to the city, as a way of saying thanks for the cities business he said that he would take all the office gals out for lunch. My wife was not there that day, so she did not go, and next week, he was back in the office, told her that she missed going out, and asked her out to lunch that day, she accepted and they went up town here to eat. She did say that he hit on her, or she wondered if he was, they started talking more as he came in, and it went from there. Her boss knows all about them, My wife is not in any position to approve any type of purchase or favor the man's company. My wife pays the cities bills, writes the checks for the city and that is about it.


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## Thor

Have you consulted with an atty yet? Most will give you a free 10 to 30 minute consultation where you can get basic questions answered. Your special needs child is a serious complication, and you need to understand how things are likely to work out in the event you end up divorced.

I am very pro marriage, and if you want to rescue your marriage you should make every effort to do so. But you should also be well informed about what will likely happen if your marriage can't be rescued and turned into a good satisfying marriage. The knowledge may be important if you get to the point of flipping a coin on whether to stay married or not. Actually, you are likely to end up in limbo, very unhappy in the marriage but unable to pull the handle to eject out of the marriage.

The worst case is you waste a half hour talking to an atty but end up staying married. That's the only downside of doing a free consultation, you waste 30 minutes of your time. The upside potential is very large, helping you make a better informed decision to either stay or leave.


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## Thor

liI, have you seen George Clooney's movie "Up in the Air"?

I'm an airline pilot, and previously worked an office job with involved some travel. I've seen what happens on the road. Most people are loyal to their spouses but there are a small group who use travel as their play time. They figure "what happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas". Their company paid trips once or twice per year become a mini vacation where they get away from the strictures of home and employer. Like the 18 yr old freshman at college. Out of view of those who know them, and they let loose. They indulge their fantasies and urges.

If I were in your position, I would require her to take a polygraph at some point not too far in the future. Rule out any other affairs, while traveling or otherwise. Normally I don't advise a polygraph, but with her history of using the business trip to meet this guy I think it would be prudent and it would make a very strong point to her.


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## lost in Iowa

Thor said:


> liI, have you seen George Clooney's movie "Up in the Air"?
> 
> I'm an airline pilot, and previously worked an office job with involved some travel. I've seen what happens on the road. Most people are loyal to their spouses but there are a small group who use travel as their play time. They figure "what happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas". Their company paid trips once or twice per year become a mini vacation where they get away from the strictures of home and employer. Like the 18 yr old freshman at college. Out of view of those who know them, and they let loose. They indulge their fantasies and urges.
> 
> If I were in your position, I would require her to take a polygraph at some point not too far in the future. Rule out any other affairs, while traveling or otherwise. Normally I don't advise a polygraph, but with her history of using the business trip to meet this guy I think it would be prudent and it would make a very strong point to her.


Yes, I have seen the above movie, do I think my wife has been doing this, whoring around, no. I do know that she used one of the meetings she was at to talk to the first guy, and a second meeting to meet the second guy. I really do not care about the first guy, it is over, they no longer talk. The second guy I do though, it was very difficult for them to meet, he was at the Mayo clinic, my wife in a meeting in Des Moines. When I read their emails, he is gone the whole week, city to city, and one time their schedules matched up. My wife did say he has been to Iowa once on business, but that was years before they started talking. My wife has not made any day trips to cities around us, so the thought they have met in Kansas City or St. Louis, ect. did not happen. I tried to log into her cheating account this morning, the account has been deactivated, I jumped my wife about it, and she said she did not do it, I checked her work email, and there is nothing there about her being on gmail today. Yes, I know she could have logged in, I changed the password last night, but then done a password change, deleted the account, trash all the evidence and then delete the trash file. The whole process would have taken a few minutes, maybe she did, I have enough emails stored in a safe place that I do not need to continue to read the ones they sent back and forth. I sent a voicemail to his wife, asking her a couple of question, will most likely not hear back from her today. Trust but verify.


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## Young at Heart

NoChoice said:


> OP,
> Would you say your wife displayed the behavior of a 45 - 50 year old married woman? Is it rational behavior to destroy one's honor by shattering solemn vows, totally disregard her mate's feelings, jeopardize her relationship with her children, expose herself to possible infection (and subsequently you), be deceitful and jeopardize her marriage, all for the experience of "seeing what it feels like to sleep with someone else"? If you see this behavior as reasonable and rational then I wish you a good evening and continued good fortune....


We could all reflect on Bill Clinton and Monaca, Elliot Spitzer and his high priced hooker, Dominique Strauss-Kahn and even Al Gore and his massage therapist. Being 45-50 or even older does not always made one think rationally about one's honor and family. 

Yes the OP needs to establish some firm boundaries with his wife and explain these are red lines that if crossed again will result in divorse. But he also gets to determine if he wants to initiate a divorce at this time. He has already reconciled with his wife's cheating once, so he has crossed this bridge before and understand both what is involved and the pain.

I wish him luck.


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## bandit.45

I'm glad you told his wife. Good for you. 

And I apologize if I came across as course. I don't like seeing good men being played. Just gets my goad.


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## lost in Iowa

bandit.45 said:


> I'm glad you told his wife. Good for you.
> 
> And I apologize if I came across as course. I don't like seeing good men being played. Just gets my goad.


Thank you, I spoke to the OM wife last night on facebook, and I called her today with some questions, why did he suddenly stop working and fly back to their home? She said that she would not take his calls, so he called a neighbor of theirs, and she had told the neighbor what her husband had been up to, so he came home. She said that she did not delete the account, and in fact hoped she could show the account to her lawyer, I had emailed about 10 messages from the account to my work account, and I sent her those. They were primarily photos of my wife, and things she had sent him, but there was a couple of him, including one where he sent my wife nude photos of himself.


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## bandit.45

lost in Iowa said:


> Thank you, I spoke to the OM wife last night on facebook, and I called her today with some questions, why did he suddenly stop working and fly back to their home? She said that she would not take his calls, so he called a neighbor of theirs, and she had told the neighbor what her husband had been up to, so he came home. She said that she did not delete the account, and in fact hoped she could show the account to her lawyer, I had emailed about 10 messages from the account to my work account, and I sent her those. They were primarily photos of my wife, and things she had sent him, but there was a couple of him, including one where he sent my wife nude photos of himself.


Feels good to give that prick some consequences doesn't it?


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## arbitrator

lost in Iowa said:


> Thank you, I spoke to the OM wife last night on facebook, and I called her today with some questions, why did he suddenly stop working and fly back to their home? She said that she would not take his calls, so he called a neighbor of theirs, and she had told the neighbor what her husband had been up to, so he came home. She said that she did not delete the account, and in fact hoped she could show the account to her lawyer, I had emailed about 10 messages from the account to my work account, and I sent her those. They were primarily photos of my wife, and things she had sent him, but there was a couple of him, *including one where he sent my wife nude photos of himself.*


*Undoubtedly must have been seeking some form of feminine validation as to his obvious lack of size in that particular department!*


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## lost in Iowa

arbitrator said:


> *Undoubtedly must have been seeking some form of feminine validation as to his obvious lack of size in that particular department!*


You are thinking of the first guy, the two incher, I am talking about the current one that she had an EA with. They had exchanged photos of one another.


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## lost in Iowa

bandit.45 said:


> Feels good to give that prick some consequences doesn't it?


Bandit, I really do not care what he thinks or feels, I does bother me that I have hurt his wife. We have been emailing the past couple of days trying to find out the whole story from my wife's and her husbands perspective. Do I feel sorry for him, nope, but I do her, I just think how would I like to come home and find a voice mail on the machine, then go to my facebook and have the whole thing laid out for me from someone I have never met or heard of before today. What ever happens to him, I could care less. What scares me is since he is now free or will be shortly, that he starts to think that he will now try and contact my wife again, and the whole process is renewed just deeper underground.


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## OldWolf57

Sorry for the thread jack LII, but elliot spitzer has to be the biggest fool on the planet.
You don't dethrone the Biggest Biz Tycoon in the world, a king maker, and think he is going to forget.
if there ever was a person who needed to be a boy scout for the rest of his life, it was old elliot.


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## lost in Iowa

Just a little update, I have been emailing the other man's wife the past three days, getting her side of the equation. It helped to hear her side of it, they are divorcing, she said that they had tried counseling before, and then he goes out and does this its over. As I was sitting here as we posted back and forth, I thought to myself, "this is how my wife and OM started" both hurting, wanted someone to talk too. So I printed off our emails, and then sent one last email to his wife, explaining how I was feeling, we were doing the same things our spouse did, and she was getting too easy to talk to. Told her this would be my last email between us. I have all the info. I need from her, and I do not need to go down that path. Staying true to my goal of total transparency, I gave my wife the emails between us that I had printed off. She read them, we talked, she cried, we both got angry, and then we talked some more. My wife wants to rug sweep the whole thing, "its over, we have talked enough, why do I keep bringing the same things up over and over again?" I tell her because I want to get to know what you were thinking and why you did it. Do not tell me you are sorry for hurting me, tell me that you are sorry for starting this whole thing. Do the things for me that you were with him, photos and little emails, about how's your day. We start counseling next week, we both have a lot of problems, mine is rebuilding trust in my wife, hers confronting her depression and talking to me. Talking to me was one of her reasons for starting the EA, I would never listen, but I told her last night, when we sit down and talk, I do 90% of the talking, and she just sit there. I told her, she needs to open up, and tell me what she is feeling and thinking, I ask her those questions, but she just keeps it all bottled up inside. I will continue to monitor her emails, both at home and work, checking on her in other ways. And hope for the best. 
Thanks for listening,


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## Thor

Get the book "After the Affair" by Janis Spring. Have your wife read it, too. Another good book is "Not Just Friends".

Your wife obviously doesn't understand the magnitude of what she has done. Without the proper processing, the damage will never heal. Ideally you two would go to a well qualified therapist who understands how to heal the trauma of infidelity. Most therapists take the wrong approach, unfortunately. So find one that doesn't rug sweep and then try to move on to figuring out how you should change so that your wife doesn't cheat on you.


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## alte Dame

Your WW wants to rugsweep, clearly. Is that what the two of you did after your affair 20 years ago? If so, then she may believe that she allowed you to do it and she should have the same option. If not, then you should point out to her how she felt when faced with your betrayal.


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## bandit.45

If you go to Surviving Infidelity website and read the threads in the Wayward section, the shared common denominators all those waywards have are 1) an innate inability to speak up and let other people know their true feelings, especially their spouses, and 2) poor problem solving/coping skills. That is why they want to rugsweep: because they are scared sh!tless of opening themselves up and looking at all the ugliness inside themselves, and even more... allowing themselves to be vulnerable enough to let their spouses and other people see them for what they truly are. 

Your WW needs intensive, weekly, hard-ass counseling and therapy to get to the bottom of why she is the way she is. You need to make weekly individual counseling mandatory for her if she wants to stop you from divorcing her. She either goes to counseling with a therapist who will make her work her problems and hold her feet to the fire, or you follow through with the divorce. It really should be that simple. Even if she goes kicking and screaming, make it a requirement.


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## Young at Heart

lost in Iowa said:


> ....I have been emailing the other man's wife the past three days, getting her side of the equation. ...As I was sitting here as we posted back and forth, I thought to myself, "this is how my wife and OM started" both hurting, wanted someone to talk too. So I printed off our emails, and then sent one last email to his wife, explaining how I was feeling, we were doing the same things our spouse did, and she was getting too easy to talk to. Told her this would be my last email between us.
> 
> ...My wife wants to rug sweep the whole thing, "its over, we have talked enough, *why do I keep bringing the same things up over and over again?"* I tell her because *I want to get to know what you were thinking and why you did it*. Do not tell me you are sorry for hurting me, tell me that you are sorry for starting this whole thing. *Do the things for me that you were with him, photos and little emails, about how's your day.*
> 
> ....We start counseling next week, we both have a lot of problems, mine is rebuilding trust in my wife, hers confronting her depression and talking to me. Talking to me was one of her reasons for starting the EA, *I would never listen, *but I told her last night, when we sit down and talk, I do 90% of the talking, and she just sit there.....


A couple of final comments. 

I hope that you do understand that even though she was the one that cheated, you share a tiny bit of the responsibility for not properly affair-proofing your marriage after her last affair and for not giving her what ever emotional support the other guy was giving her.

You need to take ownership prior to your counseling session that you are not "blameless" nor the totally innocent victim. At some point you will need to own up, take responsibility for what you did wrong and apologize to your wife. Yes, what she did was far worse, but moving forward will require both to understand the problems they own and apologize for them.

Another thing that you might want to think about before therapy with her is the concept of "emotional flooding." This is when someone says something that throws a person into a near emotional panic attack and they mentally go into a flight or fight response mode. At that moment their ability to think rationally and or explain themselves with words is pretty well gone. When your wife feels threatened and afraid, she may become emotionally flooded and actually not be able to answer your questions as to why? There are some techniques to soothe and calm a person so that they may come back emotionally enough to talk. Find out about them.

With the help of your therapist you should move into the future and what each of you wants and expects from your marriage in the future and if each of you can visualize it and make it happen for yourselves and each other. So to an extent your wife is right, at some point you need to move from the past into the future. My advice is quit picking at the scab on her conscious, let it heal, but set very very clear boundaries or red lines as to what you expect and don't expect from her in the future. 

Finally, don't ask her to "Do the things for me that you were with him." You want to be different in her mind from him. You want her to do the things for you that will make you happy and feel cherished and loved by her. That should be your only motivation. Ask for what you want, not what the other guy got.

Counseling is the right step to see if you can save this marriage, which sounds like your goal. I hope you have found a good one. If at any time in the process you aren't happy or confident that your counselor is moving the two of you forward, tell that to the counselor and ask them if they can solve you concern or if they can recommend another person who might be better able to help in this situation.

Good luck.


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## phillybeffandswiss

Young at Heart said:


> Ask for what you want, not what the other guy got.


Good advice. Yes, I disagree with the context of pretty much everything else.


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## lost in Iowa

Young at Heart said:


> A couple of final comments.
> 
> I hope that you do understand that even though she was the one that cheated, you share a tiny bit of the responsibility for not properly affair-proofing your marriage after her last affair and for not giving her what ever emotional support the other guy was giving her.
> 
> You need to take ownership prior to your counseling session that you are not "blameless" nor the totally innocent victim. At some point you will need to own up, take responsibility for what you did wrong and apologize to your wife. Yes, what she did was far worse, but moving forward will require both to understand the problems they own and apologize for them.
> 
> Another thing that you might want to think about before therapy with her is the concept of "emotional flooding." This is when someone says something that throws a person into a near emotional panic attack and they mentally go into a flight or fight response mode. At that moment their ability to think rationally and or explain themselves with words is pretty well gone. When your wife feels threatened and afraid, she may become emotionally flooded and actually not be able to answer your questions as to why? There are some techniques to soothe and calm a person so that they may come back emotionally enough to talk. Find out about them.
> 
> With the help of your therapist you should move into the future and what each of you wants and expects from your marriage in the future and if each of you can visualize it and make it happen for yourselves and each other. So to an extent your wife is right, at some point you need to move from the past into the future. My advice is quit picking at the scab on her conscious, let it heal, but set very very clear boundaries or red lines as to what you expect and don't expect from her in the future.
> 
> Finally, don't ask her to "Do the things for me that you were with him." You want to be different in her mind from him. You want her to do the things for you that will make you happy and feel cherished and loved by her. That should be your only motivation. Ask for what you want, not what the other guy got.
> 
> Counseling is the right step to see if you can save this marriage, which sounds like your goal. I hope you have found a good one. If at any time in the process you aren't happy or confident that your counselor is moving the two of you forward, tell that to the counselor and ask them if they can solve you concern or if they can recommend another person who might be better able to help in this situation.
> 
> Good luck.


I agree with some of what you have said, but I have tried to talk to my wife, she would not talk to me. I asked her the other day why she did not conify in me or a close friend, she could not come up with an answer. It was easier to talk to a total stranger, someone that was feeling the same thing, as she was to talk too. The person she found would not judge her. just listen to what she had to say, and agree with it. He was in the same boat, he could not talk to his wife, they had been having problems for years. So like my wife, they both went looking for someone to talk too. I told her tonight, that if you need to talk, say something, if I am watching tv, we can stop it and talk. I know that I have some blame, its easy to say, you should have talked to your wife, listened to her. How do I do that when she would not talk to me? We were both in a bad place, instead of coming to me, she went looking for someone that was a voice on the internet. How can I fight that? We are getting better, today for the first time, she sent me an email, where she stated that she felt bad about her actions, not just hurting me, but what she had done. For the first time, she is taking responsibility for her actions, not placing blame on others, but telling me, "I was the one the messed up". I told her tonight as we sat on the couch together, that she must change, that she has used up all of her get out of jail free cards, the next time there will be no counseling, just divorce and we will be through. We are getting better, the sex the past few days have been the best we have had in years, we are sitting down and talking for the first time in a long time. I am starting to believe her, when she says that she has no contact with her EA, his wife has confimed this, so we are getting there. It will not be quick, I will have self doubts about her commitment to us, but I know I what to try one more time. The other mans wife, in our last email said I was a Good Man, I really needed to hear that, I asked my wife, in bed last night, as we talked about the email, "am I a Good Man or a Fool", she said I was a good man, and I told her that only she can determine that. If she turns back to me, than I am, if she returns to her ways, we are through, and I am the fool. Thanks for listening.


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## bandit.45

Well it looks like you have solved your problem. 

Good luck to you. I've got better things to do with my time.


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## VFW

lost in Iowa said:


> I asked her the other day why she did not conify in me or a close friend, she could not come up with an answer. It was easier to talk to a total stranger, someone that was feeling the same thing, as she was to talk too. The person she found would not judge her. just listen to what she had to say, and agree with it. He was in the same boat, he could not talk to his wife, they had been having problems for years.


One problem I see is that she is not seeing him for who he truly is and that he saw a vulnerable person and took advantage of her. Naturally, he knew what to say, she is saying all the things that are bad in her life. All he has to do is validate to her everything she is saying and that she is justified. There is nothing noble here, is a liar and a cheat. If she does not understand that, then he will always be the knight in shining armor and not the leach that is the real him. She also has to participate in the conversation and not just take a scolding. I believe that most relationships can be fixed, if both parties work hard to fix the problem. I hope that counseling will open up communications and allow you two to fix the problems. Best of luck to you and your family.


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## ConanHub

YAH. Make no mistake that affairs are 100% on the cheater.

Your inference that OP had anything to do with his WWs double dose of skankery is false and insulting.

His apologies for whatever he lacked in the marriage can certainly wait until his wayward owns her shyt and starts the heavy lifting.

She is still blame shifting and rug sweeping.

She actually has to own the lack of communication because she refused to talk to OP.

Many people cheat simply because they suck in one or more aspects of their character.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NoChoice

lost in Iowa said:


> I agree with some of what you have said, but I have tried to talk to my wife, she would not talk to me. I asked her the other day why she did not conify in me or a close friend, she could not come up with an answer. It was easier to talk to a total stranger, someone that was feeling the same thing, as she was to talk too. The person she found would not judge her. just listen to what she had to say, and agree with it. He was in the same boat, he could not talk to his wife, they had been having problems for years. So like my wife, they both went looking for someone to talk too. I told her tonight, that if you need to talk, say something, if I am watching tv, we can stop it and talk. I know that I have some blame, its easy to say, you should have talked to your wife, listened to her. How do I do that when she would not talk to me? We were both in a bad place, instead of coming to me, she went looking for someone that was a voice on the internet. How can I fight that? We are getting better, today for the first time, she sent me an email, where she stated that she felt bad about her actions, not just hurting me, but what she had done. For the first time, she is taking responsibility for her actions, not placing blame on others, but telling me, "I was the one the messed up". I told her tonight as we sat on the couch together, that she must change, that she has used up all of her get out of jail free cards, the next time there will be no counseling, just divorce and we will be through. We are getting better, the sex the past few days have been the best we have had in years, we are sitting down and talking for the first time in a long time. I am starting to believe her, when she says that she has no contact with her EA, his wife has confimed this, so we are getting there. It will not be quick, I will have self doubts about her commitment to us, but I know I what to try one more time. The other mans wife, in our last email said I was a Good Man, I really needed to hear that, I asked my wife, in bed last night, as we talked about the email, "am I a Good Man or a Fool", she said I was a good man, and I told her that only she can determine that. If she turns back to me, than I am, if she returns to her ways, we are through, and *I am the fool*. Thanks for listening.


OP,
I do not consider it foolish to want a life with the woman you chose to marry. I do however, consider what she did extremely foolish.

You asked your wife if you were a good man or a fool. You should have asked her if you were a good man who has misplaced his trust. Then you should have asked her if she is a good woman or a fool. If she said fool then you should have asked why would anyone choose to be a fool.

She cannot make you a fool any more than you can make her a good woman. An individuals actions make them what they are, not another persons actions. If she can truly grasp this concept, that it is her actions that create the person she is, then there is hope that she can indeed be faithful. If, on the other hand, she continues to blame you or any other outside circumstances for her actions then you will travel this road again.

You could be the most despicable, uncaring, inattentive, unappreciative, uncommunicative H on earth but that does not make her a cheater, her cheating makes her a cheater. It may make her miserable but that does not make her cheat.

So, understand that your attempt to reestablish trust in your wife in no way makes you a fool as long as you realize at the onset that you may indeed be hurt again. It would be foolhardy to attempt R and not believe that you could be betrayed again, given her previous dalliances but as long as you know the risk, then it is your risk to take.

Each time a gambler places a bet they know that there is a chance that they will lose. A fool would place a bet and declare it a sure thing. No one can know what the future holds and therefore no one can declare a sure thing in life. It is your life, do what you feel will bring you the best chance at happiness, just understand that you may indeed win....but, you may not. I wish you success and good fortune


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## lost in Iowa

NoChoice said:


> OP,
> I do not consider it foolish to want a life with the woman you chose to marry. I do however, consider what she did extremely foolish.
> 
> You asked your wife if you were a good man or a fool. You should have asked her if you were a good man who has misplaced his trust. Then you should have asked her if she is a good woman or a fool. If she said fool then you should have asked why would anyone choose to be a fool.
> 
> She cannot make you a fool any more than you can make her a good woman. An individuals actionanother persons actionss make them what they are, not . If she can truly grasp this concept, that it is her actions that create the person she is, then there is hope that she can indeed be faithful. If, on the other hand, she continues to blame you or any other outside circumstances for her actions then you will travel this road again.
> 
> You could be the most despicable, uncaring, inattentive, unappreciative, uncommunicative H on earth but that does not make her a cheater, her cheating makes her a cheater. It may make her miserable but that does not make her cheat.
> 
> So, understand that your attempt to reestablish trust in your wife in no way makes you a fool as long as you realize at the onset that you may indeed be hurt again. It would be foolhardy to attempt R and not believe that you could be betrayed again, given her previous dalliances but as long as you know the risk, then it is your risk to take.
> 
> Each time a gambler places a bet they know that there is a chance that they will lose. A fool would place a bet and declare it a sure thing. No one can know what the future holds and therefore no one can declare a sure thing in life. It is your life, do what you feel will bring you the best chance at happiness, just understand that you may indeed win....but, you may not. I wish you success and good fortune


Its her action and her ownership of what she did, is what she is struggling with now. We have spent many hours the past week talking, and tonight, we did again. She is angry at me for confiding in our daughter, that relationship between them, already rocky may be destroyed. But I was in need to talk to someone, so I choose her. Today I found a text from the OM wife on my phone, wanting to know if I knew they had engaged in phone sex. I showed the text to my wife, and she said they had never engaged in phone sex. When I told her that you had engaged in email sex on at least two occasions, she said it was not phone sex, and his wife should know the difference. I pointed out, it does not matter whether it was by phone, email, text or whatever, you did engage in the behavior that the OM wife said. She did, I have the emails to prove it. I do not know why my wife gets so rapped up in semantics, does it really matter that they did not do it on the phone, as opposed to email. They used some form of communicated to get each other off. That is what is important to me, and I told her that. My wife, yesterday was starting to own up to what she did, today she is backing off that. I told her, I was sorry for bring our daughter into this mess, but it was her actions that caused it. If she had talked to me, or one of her friends, then none of this would have happened. Blaming me for bring our daughter into it, while wrong on my part, was because of her actions, not mine. I know I am not perfect here, but it was not my actions that caused this problem in our marriage, it was hers and hers alone. Thanks for listening.


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## farsidejunky

Back off and run the 180. Initiate no more dialogue about the affair. 

If she brings it up in a snotty way:

"I am not okay with you being snotty over your choice to cheat."

If she brings it up in a remorseful way, be patient and kind.

But you are enabling this behavior through a perception of neediness. If a stranger sees this, what does your WW see? 

Let her FEEL consequences, or she will resent and disrespect you while you are coming to her rescue.


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## lost in Iowa

farsidejunky said:


> Back off and run the 180. Initiate no more dialogue about the affair.
> 
> If she brings it up in a snotty way:
> 
> "I am not okay with you being snotty over your choice to cheat."
> 
> If she brings it up in a remorseful way, be patient and kind.
> 
> But you are enabling this behavior through a perception of neediness. If a stranger sees this, what does your WW see?
> 
> Let her FEEL consequences, or she will resent and disrespect you while you are coming to her rescue.


Its hard to do a 180 when we start counseling on Tuesday, we are talking, but for me, she must own up to the fact that her actions are what put us here. I told her again tonight, I want to stay married to her, to have her beside me when we die. But she must stop blaming me for what she did. She kept saying you would not talk and listen to me, and I told her then you should have kept trying, shut off the tv and say, we need to talk. If I would not listen, then keep doing it. I am not stupid, I would have listened, she choose not to try to talk to me, it was easier to find someone on the internet, then talk to her husband of 30 some years. I guess there are a lot less problems talking to someone that is a total strange than a person that you have children with and have known for 35 years. Yes, I am angry, why did she do this, a second time, I told her tonight, I ****ed up 20 years ago, and my actions have proved that I admit it was wrong, and I have changed. Everyone can make a mistake, but own what you did and go forward, that is part of the healing process, and that is what both of us need now. Stop saying I am sorry for what I did, but look deep into your soul and say, I ****ed up, I am thankful my husband loves me enough to try again. I told her tonight, she is going to have to take one of the team with our daughter, our daughter is pissed, thinks her mom was wrong, and my wife needs to say she is sorry for hurting her. My wife keeps saying, I hurt you, I did nothing too her, and I keep telling her that is the wrong approach, she must admit to messing up and plead for our daughters forgiveness. They are texting, I am calling our daughter and leaving voice mails, they both need to get over their issues, so my wife and I can be successful in our recovery.


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## farsidejunky

I still don't see remorse. I see regret. Huge difference.

If it were me, and she pulled the blame game in counseling, I would have her served and make her work to stop it.

She is desperately trying to sweep this under the rug.


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## cgiles

I think you should sit with your daughter and your wife, and ask to your daughter if her mother's choice hurted her. 

So your wife will not be able to deny she hurted your daughter, if she tries, ask her how she can pretend to love her daughter, if she is unable to respect her daughter's feeling.


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## NoChoice

OP,
Until your wife accepts accountability and is truly contrite, you are not in recovery, you are in denial.


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## The Middleman

lost in Iowa said:


> Blaming me for bring our daughter into it, while wrong on my part, was because of her actions, not mine. I know I am not perfect here, but it was not my actions that caused this problem in our marriage, it was hers and hers alone. Thanks for listening.


I don't see why anyone would say that bringing your daughter into this was wrong, why do you say it? Your daughter has the right and need to know what kind of person her mother is (or has become) and the risk she put the family in. Your wife doesn't want your daughter to know because she doesn't want your daughter to know she is capable of that type of aberrant behavior, if you know what I mean. The crap about the strained relationship is nothing but a smoke screen.

Exposure, and having those around her knowing what she did, is a price she has to pay for her actions. If she is not willing to accept at least that, then there is no remorse and you have little hope of truly reconciling, in my opinion.


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## Chaparral

If anyone hurts one member of the family, they hurt the whole family. Your wife hurt you has bad as a wife can. The fallout is that she also hurt all your children.

This isn't rocket science.


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## ConanHub

I still don't think you should go for it.

She seems about as desirable as shingles.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lost in Iowa

ConanHub said:


> I still don't think you should go for it.
> 
> She seems about as desirable as shingles.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I actually had shingles this spring, I wonder myself sometimes is this marriage worth it. I was reading a post yesterday, where someone said it was easier to walk away then to stay married and make it work. I am willing to give it ONE more try. If she changes and goes back to the woman I married, them we will make it. If she continues on the path she is on, we will not. Its a simple as that. Own what she did, make the changes in her and our lives, and hopefully live happily ever after.


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## Dyokemm

LiI,

As far as your update from the OMW....your WW is acting offended and as if the OMW is stupid.

But you know she is trying to rugsweep this as much as possible.

How are you so certain that OMW did not wring this truth out of her desperate WH?.....it is more likely IMO that your WW is lying about this than that OMW simply 'misunderstood' what her WH was admitting.

Your WW is still lying about what has happened...and POSOM is probably doing the same with his BW too....but OMW probably found some info on her end, probably in relation to the burner phone account, that made him admit the phone sex to her.

So OMW told you, but you are still accepting your WW's lies.

And I STILL wouldn't buy their story about what happened when they actually met.

I think you need to prepare for a lot more to be revealed here.


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## lost in Iowa

Dyokemm said:


> LiI,
> 
> As far as your update from the OMW....your WW is acting offended and as if the OMW is stupid.
> 
> But you know she is trying to rugsweep this as much as possible.
> 
> How are you so certain that OMW did not wring this truth out of her desperate WH?.....it is more likely IMO that your WW is lying about this than that OMW simply 'misunderstood' what her WH was admitting.
> 
> Your WW is still lying about what has happened...and POSOM is probably doing the same with his BW too....but OMW probably found some info on her end, probably in relation to the burner phone account, that made him admit the phone sex to her.
> 
> So OMW told you, but you are still accepting your WW's lies.
> 
> And I STILL wouldn't buy their story about what happened when they actually met.
> 
> I think you need to prepare for a lot more to be revealed here.


Its not their story that I believe, its the emails before, during and after the event that I believe. That is the thing about reading the emails, they were talking day to day. I know exactly what they did, and what they were thinking, because I read the emails. Without the emails, I would be like a lot of people here, they met, they ****ed and they are both lying about it. The emails give a whole different picture, they met, they talked, they made out, but that is as far as it went. The emails prove that, a lot more than my wife's or OM will ever do.


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## lost in Iowa

I have the emails and photos they sent each other, phone sex, email sex, what does it matter they engaged in some form of getting each other off. I know that, OMW knows that. Does it matter that he did it over a burner phone as opposed to email. Not to me, they did it, I know that, and have the emails to prove it.


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## phillybeffandswiss

lost in Iowa said:


> Without the emails, I would be like a lot of people here, they met, they ****ed and they are both lying about it. The emails give a whole different picture, they met, they talked, they made out, but that is as far as it went. The emails prove that, a lot more than my wife's or OM will ever do.


If trusting those emails makes reconciliation easier, good for you. The picture is different only for you. Yes, you might be that rare person where the emails were 100% accurate. For many, "they ****ed" because YOU WERE NOT THERE to prove anything different.


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## Wolfman1968

lost in Iowa said:


> Quick update, my wife and I sat down and talked for four hours last night, she was very transparent with names dates, phone numbers passwords and everything. I have told my oldest daughter all of the details, she has been a great help. I have been trying to contact the other man's wife, calling and on facebook but no reply. I am willing to go to counseling to see if we can still work this out, but have told her, that it is up to her. She agreed to the counseling both married and for her privately. I just sent her and email about trying to contact his wife, I want to show her that I am not keeping any secrets from her. Everyone here may be right, it would be easier to just say "fck it" and see a lawyer, and maybe I will end up doing that if she is not truthful and really does want to stop. But for now, I will just see where this goes. My wife did spent Tuesday night with my sister in law, they have split up, I called the SIL yesterday and informed her all of the details, she was very helpful talking to. My wife showed me texts between to two, and the SIL was telling her the same things about being truthful, need to stop what she has been doing and try to make this work.



But wait. She had an affair 5 years ago. So you should have already done this last time.

If it didn't work before, it's not going to work again. This is a much worse case than most presented here because of the repeat aspect.


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## Wolfman1968

lost in Iowa said:


> I actually had shingles this spring, I wonder myself sometimes is this marriage worth it. I was reading a post yesterday, where someone said it was easier to walk away then to stay married and make it work. I am willing to give it ONE more try. If she changes and goes back to the woman I married, them we will make it. If she continues on the path she is on, we will not. Its a simple as that. Own what she did, make the changes in her and our lives, and hopefully live happily ever after.



But this is NOT her first cheating event.

Why would you expect it to work now, when it didn't before?


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## lost in Iowa

phillybeffandswiss said:


> If trusting those emails makes reconciliation easier, good for you. The picture is different only for you. Yes, you might be that rare person where the emails were 100% accurate. For many, "they ****ed" because YOU WERE NOT THERE to prove anything different.


Why would they lie in an email to each other? When they had the email sex, it was very clear what they were doing, they were telling each other what they liked and were doing. So why would they have sex when they met, and then in the emails act like they did not? I am sure neither thought their spouse would ever read the emails, so why play coy about what they did? Remember they were talking to each other, no one else. Why lie about it? It's easy to think they ****ed the time they met, but the emails say they didn't, that is not my wife saying it or the OM to his wife, we both read the emails, both myself and the OMW agree they did not **** the only time they met. Now how do I know they only met once, again the emails, he is based out of east coast, we are in the Midwest. The emails point out how hard it was to arrange their schedules to met the one time they did. They were also in Dallas together one time, he was flying through changing planes, we were visiting our son. Could they met then, I suppose, but considering I was with my wife the whole time, so no they did not meet. I just go back to Occam's Law " the simplest solution to a problem is generally the correct one." His layover in Dallas was only a few hours tops, she would have had come up with an excuse and get in car, drive out to the airport she has never visited in a new city, and meet him and then get back before I discovered she was missing. And then not talk about in their emails after the fact.


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## lost in Iowa

Wolfman1968 said:


> But this is NOT her first cheating event.
> 
> Why would you expect it to work now, when it didn't before?


I have to have faith she will change, the first time, no she did not, I did not expose her to friends and family. This time I have in a limited way our daughter and SIL. I want to stay married to her, maybe I am a fool, and a few years from now she will do something like this again, and we will be through. I guess I am of the old school like my parents, till death do us part were just not words but something we had planned to do. I had one EA, she a PA and a EA, I will try one more time. With intense counseling hopefully it will work, she has seen what she will loose if we divorce, not only me but our children and grandchildren. We can have a comfortable life together, or she can struggle on her own. Remember the OM is not in the next town or a couple hours away, its 1150 miles from each other. Distance is my ally here, maybe a lot of you are right, I am wrong, but I know I must try.


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## Locke.Stratos

lost in Iowa said:


> I am willing to give it *ONE* more try.


Isn't this the 2nd time you're giving it ONE more try, her second affair? Well do what you have to, but if you allow her off without full exposure and consequences there will be a repeat in the not too distant future. I'm not sure if you've read *The 180* but I'd make it my Bible if I were you.


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## Locke.Stratos

*The 180*

1. Don’t pursue reason, chase, beg, plead or implore.

2. No frequent phone calls.

3. Don’t point out “good points” in marriage.

4. Don’t follow her/him around the house.

5. Don’t encourage or initiate discussion about the future.

6. Don’t ask for help from the family members of your wayward partner.

7. Don’t ask for reassurances.

8. Don’t buy or give gifts.

9. Don’t schedule dates together.

10. Don’t keep saying, “I Love You!” Because if you really think about it, he/she is, at this particular moment, not very loveable.

11. Do more than act as if you are moving on with your life; begin moving on with your life!

12. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and independent.

13. Don’t sit around waiting on your spouse – get busy, do things, go out with friends, enjoy old hobbies, find new ones! But stay busy!

14. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words. Don’t push any issue, no matter how much you want to!

15. If you’re in the habit of asking your spouse his/her whereabouts, ASK NOTHING. Seem totally uninterested.

16. Your partner needs to believe that you have awakened to the fact that “they (the wayward partner)” are serious concerning their assertions as to the future (or lack there of) of your marriage. Thus, you are you are moving on with your life…without them!

17. Don’t be nasty, angry or even cold – Just pull yourself back. Don’t always be so available…for anything! Your spouse will notice. More important, he/she will notice that you’re missing.

18. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. Make yourself be someone they would want to be around, not a moody, needy, pathetic individual but a self-assured individual secure in the knowledge that they have value.

19. All questions about the marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may not be for quite a while). Initiate no such conversation!

20. Do not allow yourself to lose your temper. No yelling, screaming or name calling EVER. No show of temper! Be cool, act cool; be in control of the only thing you can control. YOURSELF!

21. Don’t be overly enthusiastic.

22. Do not argue when they tell you how they feel (it only makes their feelings stronger). In fact, refuse to argue at all!

23. Be patient and learn to not only listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you. Hear what it is that they are saying! Listen and then listen some more!

24. Learn to back off, keep your mouth shut and walk away when you want to speak out, no matter what the provocation. No one ever got themselves into trouble by just not saying anything.

25. Take care of you. Exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil.

26. Be strong, confident and learn to speak softly.

27. Know that if you can do this 180, your smallest CONSISTENT action will be noticed far more than any words you can say or write.

28. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are feeling totally desperate and needy.

29. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse. It’s not always about you! More to the point, at present they just don’t care.

30. Do not believe any of what you hear them say and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives and do so in the most strident tones imaginable. Try to remember that they are also hurting and afraid. Try to remember that they know what they are doing is wrong and so they will say anything they can to justify their behavior.

31. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel. It “ain’t over till it’s over!”

32. Do not backslide from your hard-earned changes. Remain consistent! It is the consistency of action and attitude that delivers the message.

33. When expressing your dissatisfaction with the actions of the wayward party, never be judgmental, critical or express moral outrage. Always explain that your dissatisfaction is due to the pain that the acts being committed are causing you as a person. This is the kind of behavior that will cause you to be a much more attractive and mysterious individual. Further it SHOWS that you are NOT afraid to move on with your life. Still more important, it will burst their positive little bubble; the one in which they believe that they can always come back to you in case things don’t work out with the affair partner.


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## lost in Iowa

Locke.Stratos said:


> Isn't this the 2nd time you're giving it ONE more try, her second affair? Well do what you have to, but if you allow her off without full exposure and consequences there will be a repeat in the not too distant future. I'm not sure if you've read *The 180* but I'd make it my Bible if I were you.


If I blow it off, I will be in the same boat in the not to distant future. I have exposed in a limited way, I prefer not to bring our sons and daughter in law into this. What would it help for them to know. If we divorce, then I tell them, if we work this out, it would just slow down the recovery. Yes, it is my second time doing this, I have learned from her first affair, I contacted the other mans wife, told our daughter and SIL, what more than blowing the whole thing up and putting it on facebook can I do, or just walk away. How do I try to make it work if I blow this up, tell everyone we know. My wife will just then say, "I have given up, and there would be no chance to work this out." I hear people say you should tell everyone. Hell, how about I make her wear the scarlet A for adultor for the next year or so. We live in a town of 2600 people, how does telling everyone help me or our situation? It doesn't, what is does is push her out the door. Remember this is not a football game, my life, my wife's and our children and grandchildren's life will all be affect by our decision, that is not something I will take lightly and without a fight.


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## turnera

lost in Iowa said:


> She is angry at me for confiding in our daughter, that relationship between them, already rocky may be destroyed.


A REMORSEFUL wife would not be chewing you out for anything you have done.

Try to remember that. She has no RIGHT to be taking you to task. Not if she wants you to take her back. That she's doing it ALREADY is a HUGE red flag.



lost in Iowa said:


> I showed the text to my wife, and she said they had never engaged in phone sex. When I told her that you had engaged in email sex on at least two occasions, she said it was not phone sex, and his wife should know the difference. I pointed out, it does not matter whether it was by phone, email, text or whatever, you did engage in the behavior that the OM wife said. She did, I have the emails to prove it. I do not know why my wife gets so rapped up in semantics


 The SECOND red flag, that she cares more about protecting her image and getting as LITTLE grief as possible, has to 'own' as little guilt as possible.



lost in Iowa said:


> My wife, yesterday was starting to own up to what she did, today she is backing off that.


I always tell BHs to wait at LEAST a year to see if a 'former' wayward is STILL remorseful. It's easy to pretend at remorse for a few weeks or months; if they haven't regressed in a year, you have a chance. Your wife hasn't even lasted, what, a week?



lost in Iowa said:


> I told her, I was sorry for bring our daughter into this mess, but it was her actions that caused it. If she had talked to me, or one of her friends, then none of this would have happened. Blaming me for bring our daughter into it, while wrong on my part, was because of her actions, not mine.


Stop apologizing. I tell every betrayed spouse to tell their kids, IF they are trying to end the affair and stay married. It's important that the cheater see what their affair is doing to their kids. Your wife OWES it to her daughter to try to make it up to her. Instead, SHE IS BLAMING YOU for something. FINAL RED FLAG.

Stick a fork in it.


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## NoChoice

OP,
You must understand the dynamics of R in order to see its possibility or its futility. Should you make your wife wear a scarlet A on her chest, no but if your wife were truly remorseful and sincere about the marriage recovering she would volunteer to wear it if she thought you would benefit in any way. That is the key to R. It is a total and complete sell out to self and a steadfast, unwavering dedication to the marriage. She becomes unimportant and the marriage and you become paramount.

Absent this type of commitment, any R is doomed to failure. If you requested your wife crawl through a field of pig feces and cut glass she would do it HAPPILY because, if she is sincerely remorseful, her motivation is healing you and the marriage. The experience would be miserable but the end result would bring her such joy the the ends easily justify the means.

You are desperately trying to save face on her behalf, protecting her as any good H should but in this instance humiliation, scorn, ridicule and rejection are necessary components of the process to prove to you and herself that she is no longer the most important thing in her life.You and your family are. You may try and circumvent this if you deem it prudent but I am convinced that is a mistake. I sincerely hope I am wrong.

This should not be easy for her and if facing these tough consequences "forces her out of the door", as you put it, then she is not sincere and you are in denial. Her attitude must be that, no matter what and in spite of any obstacle, I will win my family and my husband back, if not, she will use that door eventually to cheat again. Again, I hope I am wrong. In any event, I wish you strength and good fortune.


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## phillybeffandswiss

lost in Iowa said:


> I just go back to Occam's Law " the simplest solution to a problem is generally the correct one.".


So do I, Occam's Razor, which is they met and had sex.


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## lost in Iowa

phillybeffandswiss said:


> So do I, Occam's Razor, which is they met and had sex.


Ok, you win, they met and had sex, feel better? How does this help me? Oh, I am in denial, and only by throwing her to the curb, will I truly lift the fog that I am in.


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## NoChoice

OP,
Not throwing her to the curb but not coddling her either. She has committed a heinous act against the marriage and she must feel the consequences or she will never fully understand the seriousness of her misdeeds. If she is not willing to face them and fight through them then you have lost her anyway. You are merely delaying the inevitable. This is what you need to understand.


----------



## bandit.45

lost in Iowa said:


> Ok, you win, they met and had sex, feel better? How does this help me? Oh, I am in denial, and only by throwing her to the curb, will I truly lift the fog that I am in.


Lost, this is not about what your WW did or did not do with the OM.

It is about her character. From my vantage point, she has none.


----------



## 3putt

bandit.45 said:


> Lost, this is not about what your WW did or did not do with the OM.
> 
> It is about her character. From my vantage point, she has none.


I think it goes deeper than that. I believe he's more afraid of losing her than he is of her cheating on him.

Haven't been on this thread, but have followed it and that's what keeps screaming out at me. He's just terrified to lose her.

What's the old saying around here? 

_The one that is the least afraid of losing the marriage is the one that controls it._

Sounds exactly like what we have here.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

lost in Iowa said:


> Ok, you win, they met and had sex, feel better?


 Do you? You inserted winning, Occam's Razor and now sarcasm not me. I even ignored your ironic anger about "semantics."



lost in Iowa said:


> How does this help me?


By making you see the illogical leaps you are making, while you keep writing out contradictory examples. You are going to MC and you'll be back here again if you rug sweep. 


lost in Iowa said:


> Oh, I am in denial, and only by throwing her to the curb, will I truly lift the fog that I am in.


Show me where I said divorce, I didn't. All I have done, in this thread, is basically tell you to not excuse her second affair because of your guilt.


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## Ripper

She will eventually stop having affairs, when she is so old and unattractive no one else will want her. That still doesn't mean she will treat you well or show you any respect.

If you would just try to get away from her you would realize how terrible she actually is. Putting you through this is nothing short of emotional abuse.


----------



## lost in Iowa

3putt said:


> I think it goes deeper than that. I believe he's more afraid of losing her than he is of her cheating on him.
> 
> Haven't been on this thread, but have followed it and that's what keeps screaming out at me. He's just terrified to lose her.
> 
> What's the old saying around here?
> 
> _The one that is the least afraid of losing the marriage is the one that controls it._
> 
> Sounds exactly like what we have here.



Sure I am afraid of loosing her, that does not mean that I will not divorce her, we have spent 36 years in this marriage, that is a lot to be giving up. Its very easy to give it up, its even harder to fight for it. Old saying and such are nice, it helps to come up with a witty phrase, laugh at others that are hurting. Like I have said over and over, she is trying, we are talking, I have all the evidence I need to convince me, that they did not sleep together. I can either look to the evidence and the light, or doubt it and follow the darkness. I choose to read and analyses the evidence, the emails, talking to my wife and the OMW, and move to the light. Its not going to be easy for either of us, maybe I should quit and start over. I told her tonight, she is the key, we can move forward together or go our separate ways, its up to her.


----------



## lost in Iowa

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Do you? You inserted winning, Occam's Razor and now sarcasm not me. I even ignored your ironic anger about "semantics."
> 
> By making you see the illogical leaps you are making, while you keep writing out contradictory examples. You are going to MC and you'll be back here again if you rug sweep.
> Show me where I said divorce, I didn't. All I have done, in this thread, is basically tell you to not excuse her second affair because of your guilt.


I am guilty of nothing, I did not put us in this situation, her actions did, were they wrong, you bet. But I am not rug sweeping, and I am not allowing her to either. No, you did not say divorce, but you did say that they slept together, just because I was not there with them. My wife denies it, would expect that, the emails confirm they did not, the OMW read the emails and she told me the same thing. They did not sleep together, they could have, my wife wanted to, but they didn't. I have made no illogical leaps you have, you were the one saying "you were not there, so they slept together" without the emails I would agree, but I have read them. So unless, I am to believe they slept together and lied about in the emails, one would say that they didn't.


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## lost in Iowa

You've let her know that you want to work this out and that it's up to her, which, given her affair and behaviour, is a mistake. You've basically let her know that her marriage and life with you is secure. She doesn't fear losing you and therefore has no motivation to change and make the effort to work on your relationship. If she doesn't change then she can't be the person you want her to be, her "old" self and your reconciliation will turn into a wreck.

If my wife does not fear losing me, than this marriage is doomed. Actions speak louder than words, her actions, say to me, "I made a mistake, and want to fix our marriage" As long as she continues down this path, we can hopefully work this out, if not we are through. I have told her those exact words daily for the past week. She knows our marriage is not secure, she does not have cart blanch to cheat or anything like it. Yes, the information here is helpful, I am doing the 180, but just because I am not willing at this to throw in the towel, does not mean I am defeated and she reverts back to what she was doing. I read through this posting today, all 14 pages at the time, I am angry, pissed off, and also relies that while some here try to help, others just seem to get satisfaction out of seeing our marriage end. Maybe they are right, maybe I am right, or maybe neither of us is, but 36 years is worth fighting for. Remember its my and my wives marriage, not yours. Please remember that when you post, hopeful is one thing, cold comments are completely another.


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## turnera

lost in Iowa said:


> Like I have said over and over, she is trying, we are talking, I have all the evidence I need to convince me, that they did not sleep together. I can either look to the evidence and the light, or doubt it and follow the darkness.


Yes, some here think you should just dump her. But many of us understand your desire to R so we are trying to advise you how best to do it. The ONLY way to successfully R is to remain skeptical until proven otherwise, and to make it VERY CLEAR you are one phone call away from divorcing her. Because of the way you describe her treating you PART of the time, most of us are very skeptical that she is feeling real remorse. It's just hard to understand how someone who REALLY HATES WHAT SHE DID to be taking YOU to task. Does that make sense?

It just seems like she doesn't fear you leaving, or else she wouldn't be talking to you this way. So we're asking you to be a little tougher in how you deal with her.


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## oneMOreguy

Very well said....


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## scatty

What is her plan to win back your trust and save the marriage? Not a vague promise to fix it and do better, but a step by step plan of action. What is the plan?


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## phillybeffandswiss

lost in Iowa said:


> No, you did not say divorce, but


There is no "but." The rest is a circular rehash with further ironic semantic issues, while twisting my words. 

All I'll say is a burner phone, texts, hiding and moving heaven and earth to meet, but I'm illogical for believing emails don't tell the entire story.


Cool.


----------



## lost in Iowa

scatty said:


> What is her plan to win back your trust and save the marriage? Not a vague promise to fix it and do better, but a step by step plan of action. What is the plan?


Well we start counseling on Tuesday, she has given me all her email names and passwords. I have cut her off from the gmail account, I have looked through her smart phone and ipad. She has said she wants to change, that she did not look at the end results of her actions. Ok, talk is cheap, but she is talking not, instead of hiding upstairs, we have talked more in the past two weeks, then we have in years. I suppose her plan is stopping her activities, the OMW stated they have not emailed each other, I have checked her work account, smart phone and ipad, nothing there. This will be a day by day, week by week process. How does anyone know that there spouse is trying, she is helping out more around the house, helping more with our daughter. She is doing what I ask, and what she said she would do.


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## lost in Iowa

phillybeffandswiss said:


> There is no "but." The rest is a circular rehash with further ironic semantic issues, while twisting my words.
> 
> All I'll say is a burner phone, texts, hiding and moving heaven and earth to meet, but I'm illogical for believing emails don't tell the entire story.
> 
> 
> Cool.


The OM had the burner phone, not my wife, they were emailing ok, how before getting the passwords could I check her work email. She is not stupid, when they did talk, she would log into her gmail account and then log out. She admitted tonight, until the last year, they were talking on her work computer. Yes, they did move heaven and earth to meet the one time they did. Like I said, he travels from city to city selling medical equipment, he admitted in one email that he could not say he would be going to Chicago and then fly to Des Moines, and they could met. She took no day trips to any cities around us that he might have been at.


----------



## lost in Iowa

NoChoice said:


> OP,
> Not throwing her to the curb but not coddling her either. She has committed a heinous act against the marriage and she must feel the consequences or she will never fully understand the seriousness of her misdeeds. If she is not willing to face them and fight through them then you have lost her anyway. You are merely delaying the inevitable. This is what you need to understand.


What would you have me do? Honest question, should I get our sons on the phone, hand it to her and tell her, "tell them what you did", sounds great, except it just causes her to move further away from us, and closer to divorce. How many spouses that had an affair actually told their children, how many told their parents, hers are on longer with us, but I suppose she could tell mine. How many of those spouses that did that are still married? You are right, if she does not fully understand what she has done, then we are through. And I will be divorcing her.


----------



## turnera

lost in Iowa said:


> What would you have me do? Honest question, should I get our sons on the phone, hand it to her and tell her, "tell them what you did", sounds great, except it just causes her to move further away from us, and closer to divorce.


That's your fear talking. You are making all decisions based on KEEPING her, when they should be on having her PROVE she's learned her lesson. 

A truly remorseful WW would GLADLY call up her children and admit what she's done, ask their forgiveness, and ask them to support YOU for what you're going through. Do you see the difference?

In fact, when I advise BSs, I tell them to insist that the 'former' WS go to the BS's parents and tell them what he/she did, and ask their forgiveness for hurting their child. If a 'former' WW will do that, I'll believe they are really remorseful and not just scrambling to save their way of life. IF they refuse to do that, guess what you just learned?


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## Thor

I am a bit of a dissenter on the exposure thing when the goal is to save the marriage. Exposure kills the illicit fun of an affair, and thus the main reason to expose is to end an ongoing affair. But if the the WS has already ended contact with the AP there is no longer need to kill the affair. Exposure then needs to be for strategic reasons either to facilitate R or to protect one's reputation during D.

Exposing to parents might be a necessary part of getting capitulation from WS. Capitulation is needed in order to start real R. Just like the addict who needs to hit rock bottom, the WS needs to fully capitulate to the BS. Calling one's parents to admit an affair is one way to demonstrate capitulation. Another reason to expose is to pull in some assistance. The pastor or a respected friend could be a neutral 3rd party who can talk to the WS and provide some guidance.

In all honesty I see other pressures as being more effective in getting a WS out of the fog and into real R as compared to exposing to adult children. File for D and make them earn their way out of it. Require IC and MC, and make sure there is real progress with observable effort by WS. Do the 180.

When my parents called to tell me my mom had an affair, I really didn't want any part of it. That was their stuff to deal with, not mine. My sister had the same reaction. Neither one of us wanted to be drawn into taking sides or making judgments.


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## farsidejunky

Fear. Turnera nailed that one, LII.

I bet your WW sees it too.


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## lost in Iowa

turnera said:


> That's your fear talking. You are making all decisions based on KEEPING her, when they should be on having her PROVE she's learned her lesson.
> 
> A truly remorseful WW would GLADLY call up her children and admit what she's done, ask their forgiveness, and ask them to support YOU for what you're going through. Do you see the difference?
> 
> In fact, when I advise BSs, I tell them to insist that the 'former' WS go to the BS's parents and tell them what he/she did, and ask their forgiveness for hurting their child. If a 'former' WW will do that, I'll believe they are really remorseful and not just scrambling to save their way of life. IF they refuse to do that, guess what you just learned?


Truthfully, how many of those people you gave this advise too, followed up and it worked? What percent followed through with it, and what percent said no, not because I'm not willing to work this through, but I will not bring others into it. Explain to me, I really want to learn, how this is helpful? Does she show the world remorse for her actions, I suppose, but getting her face down in the mud and rolling it around help the marriage or recovering marriage? Our daughter knows, her SIL knows, what good does it do to tell our sons and daughter in law, my parents? Will they except her and treat her the same as before, or will they say, she cheated once, she might do it again. I suppose I could get sympathy from my sons and parents, but I do not need that now, if we divorce I will get their sympathy then. I understand that the trust we had will never be the same, it was already damaged from her first PA, but tonight when we talked I asked if she ever thought I would find out, her answer was "no". How many people would tell their spouse about having a EA, and then expect everything to go on as normal? I luckily found out, Its like the OMW said, "we sometimes live with a person for years, and you do not truly know them" and I agree. My wife did not do this originally to hurt me, I understand that, but she did hurt me through her actions. Her actions put our marriage in danger, only she can fix what she did, I can help, she is owning in to what she did, it will take time to fix this broken marriage, but its our time. I think its worth it.


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## Thor

I'll agree with the fear being evident, having btdt myself.

LII is only few years older than me, judging by the length of his marriage. There are a lot of fears or concerns once you are in your 50's or older. Finances are a very real and very significant factor. Most of us are expecting a modest retirement, but if you suddenly cut your assets in half (and lose half your pension) due to divorce, the picture is one of never being retired. Then there are health issues which might make one feel very unsure of finding another mate. All those years together means there are countless common experiences which can never be replicated or replaced with someone else. Yes, an excellent relationship might be found elsewhere, but it will never have the depth of a 30+ year history behind it. You will never have children or grandchildren with a new partner. 

By this age, any other future potential partner will have a long history and plenty of unknowns. The next one might be a serial cheater or have other hidden defects much worse than the known issues with the current WS. It may be better to take the chance on the current WS if there are solid indications of authentic R.

For all these reasons, a 30+ year marriage is quite a desirable thing to save. This is completely separate from the issue of whether the spouse is seen as a great spouse. A barely ok spouse might be quite preferable to a divorce. Divorcing after age 50 is a very different proposition than divorcing at age 30.

One must differentiate between whether this is a fear based rationalization or a calculated position. Furthermore, one cannot show to the WS a generalized fear of (or general desire to avoid) divorce. The WS will see it as weakness and an acceptance of their cheating, when in fact the BS may be weighing other factors. In this way it is the same strategy no matter the age of the BS.


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## Mr Blunt

> *By LostinIowa*
> She is angry at me for confiding in our daughter, that relationship between them, already rocky may be destroyed.
> 
> But she must stop blaming me for what she did. She kept saying you would not talk and listen to me,
> 
> My wife keeps saying, I hurt you, I did nothing too her, and I keep telling her that is the wrong approach, she must admit to messing up and plead for our daughters forgiveness


*
Your wife’s attitude as described above does not seem like a 100% broken and contrite remorseful person. *


She gets angry at you for confiding with your daughter? She is the betrayer that caused this pain and she is trying to dictate to you who you should confide in? Look who she confided in; the OM that satisfied her selfishness and joined her in betraying the family.


That old worn out tired cop-out defense of you did not listen to me enough is so very weak. You committed a misdemeanor by not talking enough but her very serious felony was that she murdered the trust in the marriage. *A truly 100% remorseful person would be totally concentrated on their betrayal of trust and not be trying to put the spotlight on your misdemeanor*.


Your wife saying that she did nothing to hurt her daughter is outrageous! Your wife is either very ignorant about family relations or she is trying to get some of the guilt off herself by denying an important fact.

Your wife maybe trying to R but she has a ways to go for sure! Your wife gets angry at you for you telling your daughter the truth about an issue that is going to affect you both, your wife tries the old manipulation of trying to focus you on your not talking enough instead of her shattering trust and love with her betrayal of the family, your wife’s trying to manipulate the truth that she hurt her daughter are all not very good signs and is not what a 100% remorseful person would be doing. *I hope that someone, maybe the IC, can get through to her so that she gets into100% remorseful mode and changes her attitude, actions, and mind so to give a better chance of R.*


LostinIowa
I admire your desire to keep the family together and I hope that you both are successful. However, you do seem so desperate that you maybe compromising a little bit because you are so afraid of losing her. *I think what 3Putt posted below could apply to you. What do you think LostinIowa?*



> *Originally Posted by 3putt*
> 
> I believe he's more afraid of losing her than he is of her cheating on him.
> 
> He's just terrified to lose her.
> 
> What's the old saying around here?
> 
> The one that is the least afraid of losing the marriage is the one that controls it.
> 
> Sounds exactly like what we have here.


----------



## lost in Iowa

Am I afraid of loosing her, afraid is not the word to describe how I would feel. To say that the one that feels fear the least is the one in charge is incorrect. We have a marriage a partnership, I do not want my wife to fear me, I do not fear her. Do I want to start over at age 53, no, I do not, will I if forced to by her lack of actions. Yes, I will. Everyone talks about exposing her affair to our children, I will say, that has not worked out very well with our daughter, she no longer talks to my wife. So the chance I will be seeing my grand daughter in the near future is not bright. Yes, I would agree, my wife's actions are what caused me to tell our daughter, and only she can fix that by both of them talking. My wife has tried a couple of timed, our daughters response, "I have nothing to say to you now, work on your problems first, and then we will see." No its not fear, its the uneasiness of maybe starting over at 53 that bothers me, but not the fear of OK you can cheat all you want if you just stay. No, that will never be the case, I told her tonight, as she went to bed, "what happens to us, if you stray again", her response, "we are through." I told that is right, "it's up to you to make sure that does not happen again", I will not stray, make sure yours are over.


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## Dyokemm

LiI,

I didn't know the e-mails were that frequent and detailed, or that you know you had all of them without deletion....now that you clarified in your last response to me, I would give cautious agreement that you probably have all the details of this A and OMW was just mistaken or used the wrong term in saying they had phone sex.

On the exposure to the rest of your family....I can see both sides, but I think I would definitely lean towards exposing to all if you kept her first A hidden from the family.

Do they know about it, LiI?

As I see it, if you held back on exposing the first A for the same reasons you are giving now, then my opinion would be that you tried protecting her on this the first time....only to find yourself betrayed again.

Maybe she needs to feel the anger, pain, and disapproval of the entire family this time...after all her continued wayward ways have now threatened the entire family structure.

What I mean is this...you reminded your WW recently, while she held your grandson, that this is what she risked losing.

Well those moments with grandparents on holidays, birthdays, and special occasions are just as meaningful to your kids....if she continues with the betrayals, she will be robbing your kids of those moments too.

Perhaps them knowing she has been cheating and putting your M and those moments in danger of ending is the guilt and shame your WW needs to feel to make sure she forever changes who she has become.


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## bandit.45

You're only 53? You're still a young viable guy.


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## aine

Exposing is important not just to end an affair but to ensure accountability to the family. The affair not only hurts the BS but the wider family, burying it is not the answer. If the WS is willing to lay bare their wrongs and genuinely and remorse fully ask their family for support for themselves and their BS then it is highly likely they will receive it. But if they act defiant and antsy (as you Ww is doing) then all the more reason to expose. She has to see that there are consequnces, such as affecting family relationships. It is likely your daughter is upset but once she sees you both trying to work on thee M she will come round.
In short exposure is to ensure accountability for what has happened and in future.


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## RWB

LiI,

You catch your W in EA 5 years post another PA. Chances are she never "quit" cheating during the interim. You just never caught her.


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## terrence4159

Ok Iowa I rarely post on here anymore amdnits because of guys like you. You are getting great advice and doing the opposite. You have to be willing to end the marriage in order to save it. Want to know what a real honest remorseful wife I'll tell you.

We had a wife on here who cheated her husband caught her in her office and slapped her....guess what she did Iowa??.......he walked away and she called......his mom and told her she was a cheater then called all their friends family everyone she could think of and told them.....then told her husband if he wanted to divorce she would give him all he asked for no contest...... That's a remorseful wife the complete opposite if your wife......PS they are still married last I heard.

But hey you are the expert here, so why are you here if you know what to do and how to do it. More marriages are saved when the betrayed goes nuclear and is prepared to walk than well do what you are doing by about 100 to 1.


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## terrence4159

Good luck you will need it and I'm out can't watch this train wreck.


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## lost in Iowa

Dyokemm said:


> LiI,
> 
> I didn't know the e-mails were that frequent and detailed, or that you know you had all of them without deletion....now that you clarified in your last response to me, I would give cautious agreement that you probably have all the details of this A and OMW was just mistaken or used the wrong term in saying they had phone sex.
> 
> On the exposure to the rest of your family....I can see both sides, but I think I would definitely lean towards exposing to all if you kept her first A hidden from the family.
> 
> Do they know about it, LiI?
> 
> As I see it, if you held back on exposing the first A for the same reasons you are giving now, then my opinion would be that you tried protecting her on this the first time....only to find yourself betrayed again.
> 
> Maybe she needs to feel the anger, pain, and disapproval of the entire family this time...after all her continued wayward ways have now threatened the entire family structure.
> 
> What I mean is this...you reminded your WW recently, while she held your grandson, that this is what she risked losing.
> 
> Well those moments with grandparents on holidays, birthdays, and special occasions are just as meaningful to your kids....if she continues with the betrayals, she will be robbing your kids of those moments too.
> 
> Perhaps them knowing she has been cheating and putting your M and those moments in danger of ending is the guilt and shame your WW needs to feel to make sure she forever changes who she has become.


I read around 535 emails between the two of them dated May 2014 until July 6th of 2015. All the emails before that were deleted from the account. When I asked my wife, why she had deleted them, her response was "no need to keep them" This was done before I discovered the account. Its not like they had stopped talking, they continued. The emails back and forth were usually just talking back and forth about their day, others were of them sexting with photos back and forth, and ones in April and May of this year go into detail about them trying to set up a meeting, and then more photos of her in the morning of the meeting, and then "I am running late. in the car now, see you in an hour and half". Then over her the next day, where they talked about how it was ok they had not had sex, and his of how he was just not ready for that yet. I asked my wife last night, was she disappointed they did not have sex when they met. she said "No", I would have had sex with him if he wanted, but was glad to just meet and talk to him over dinner. They did make out in the car, before they split up.
Today, its been two weeks since I found all this out, I will say, its not been easy on my part, my emotions are shot, but we are talking more than ever before. I did not expose her first affair to our family originally, I did tell our daughter about it when I exposed her current EA, also told her SIL. We start counseling tomorrow, I will be glad to go back to work in another month, just to get my mind on something else, The days like now, when I am home with my daughter, is when I start to rethink everything she has done. Thanks for listening.


----------



## Truthseeker1

terrence4159 said:


> Ok Iowa I rarely post on here anymore amdnits because of guys like you. You are getting great advice and doing the opposite. You have to be willing to end the marriage in order to save it. Want to know what a real honest remorseful wife I'll tell you.
> 
> We had a wife on here who cheated her husband caught her in her office and slapped her....guess what she did Iowa??.......he walked away and she called......his mom and told her she was a cheater then called all their friends family everyone she could think of and told them.....then told her husband if he wanted to divorce she would give him all he asked for no contest...... That's a remorseful wife the complete opposite if your wife......PS they are still married last I heard.
> 
> But hey you are the expert here, so why are you here if you know what to do and how to do it. More marriages are saved when the betrayed goes nuclear and is prepared to walk than well do what you are doing by about 100 to 1.


I read that thread you describe - and she was one WW who deserved a second chance in my book. There are some remorseful WSs who take the slings and arrows to help their spouse heal - these people are to be commended and encouraged.


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## lost in Iowa

RWB said:


> LiI,
> 
> You catch your W in EA 5 years post another PA. Chances are she never "quit" cheating during the interim. You just never caught her.


You may be right, the PA 5 years ago lasted a little over 5 weeks from originally meeting to them sleeping together, I found out the day they slept together, we entered counseling, and tried to put it behind us. The EA with other man, I think started a year later in 2011. I had lost my job, unemployed at the time, and she now states that she just turned inside herself and did not feel she could talk to me, with all I was going through. That is an excuse by her, but this is when she found the OM, and over the next four years, it went from just talking, to sexting, to meeting. I did notice, the amount of photos sent slowed down and sexting did stop after they met, which I found strange, all photos after that were just of her smiling into the camera or of our pets ect.


----------



## lost in Iowa

terrence4159 said:


> Ok Iowa I rarely post on here anymore amdnits because of guys like you. You are getting great advice and doing the opposite. You have to be willing to end the marriage in order to save it. Want to know what a real honest remorseful wife I'll tell you.
> 
> We had a wife on here who cheated her husband caught her in her office and slapped her....guess what she did Iowa??.......he walked away and she called......his mom and told her she was a cheater then called all their friends family everyone she could think of and told them.....then told her husband if he wanted to divorce she would give him all he asked for no contest...... That's a remorseful wife the complete opposite if your wife......PS they are still married last I heard.
> 
> But hey you are the expert here, so why are you here if you know what to do and how to do it. More marriages are saved when the betrayed goes nuclear and is prepared to walk than well do what you are doing by about 100 to 1.


I am not the expert here OK, we both have made mistakes in our marriage, but to go the total nuclear route, does seem to me to do more harm than good. I would just like to keep our sons and daughter in law out of this, her parents are no longer with us, and mine are in their 80's my father suffered a stroke five years ago, and has trouble remembering what he had for breakfast this morning, my mom is dealing with that, no since dragging her down with even more problems at this time. My wife no longer talks much to her two brothers, hasn't for years. If I truly thought, slapping the sense into my wife and exposing it to everyone we know would help our recovery, I would not hesitate a second to do it, and maybe it will come to that one day shortly. But for now, she is trying, starting to own up to what she has done, starting counseling and talking to me. I have all her passwords, and have checked her cell phone, work phone and ipad, talked to the other mans wife. Lets just give this some time and see where this leads us.


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## turnera

I don't think you need to expose widely now, now that she's supposedly quit the affair; that said, I think you should talk to her about talking to her parents and admitting to them what she did. She really needs the humility she'll learn of telling them and seeing their disappointment; it would go a long way toward keeping her from doing it again in the future.


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## lost in Iowa

turnera said:


> I don't think you need to expose widely now, now that she's supposedly quit the affair; that said, I think you should talk to her about talking to her parents and admitting to them what she did. She really needs the humility she'll learn of telling them and seeing their disappointment; it would go a long way toward keeping her from doing it again in the future.


Her parents are dead, so talking to them is not an option. Like I said in an earlier post my parents are still alive, but my father is not in the best of health, he suffered a stroke 5 years ago, his second one and will never fully recover. I called over to their house the other day, and talked to my dad, my mom was not there, when she got home, she asked him if anyone had called, he told her I might have? My mom is dealing with that and has been for the last five years, not sure she could take on more worry right now, pretty sure her stress level, dealing with my dad is pretty high.


----------



## bandit.45

lost in Iowa said:


> You may be right, the PA 5 years ago lasted a little over 5 weeks from originally meeting to them sleeping together, I found out the day they slept together, we entered counseling, and tried to put it behind us. The EA with other man, I think started a year later in 2011. * I had lost my job, unemployed at the time, and she now states that she just turned inside herself and did not feel she could talk to me, with all I was going through.* That is an excuse by her, but this is when she found the OM, and over the next four years, it went from just talking, to sexting, to meeting. I did notice, the amount of photos sent slowed down and sexting did stop after they met, which I found strange, all photos after that were just of her smiling into the camera or of our pets ect.


Uh huh....

So she bails on you whenever the going gets rough? 

She is just checking off every box in the "sorry excuse for a wife list" isn't she?


----------



## turnera

Then pick someone else in her life whose respect she craves, and tell her you want her to tell them.


----------



## lost in Iowa

turnera said:


> Then pick someone else in her life whose respect she craves, and tell her you want her to tell them.


Really the only ones that she respects is a coworker and my wife told her along with her boss. Outside of our immediate family a couple of close friends there is just not a lot of people our there. Right now, I think we have told 4 or 5 people, only ones left would be our two sons and one daughter in law.


----------



## lost in Iowa

bandit.45 said:


> Uh huh....
> 
> So she bails on you whenever the going gets rough?
> 
> She is just checking off every box in the "sorry excuse for a wife list" isn't she?


I suppose you could look at it like that, yes, instead of coming and talking to me or one of her close friends, she found a nameless, faceless person on the internet to talk too, they both could wallow in the mud of self pity together.


----------



## bandit.45

What will happen when you have a heart attack, or find out you have cancer, or get in a life threatening car wreck? What happens if your house burns down or one of your beloved sons dies suddenly? Because...those are the kind of things that happen in life. 

Don't you want a partner who you can count on to lean on during life's hard times? Isn't that what marriage is for? To have that one ally on your side... to have that one person who would never turn her back on you when the storms of life crash on your shore? 

You need to let her know this. She has failed this test repeatedly. You need to make it abundantly clear that you need her to step up and be your ally in life and stop being your enemy. If she cannot hack it, then that is one more strap to unbuckle.


----------



## lost in Iowa

bandit.45 said:


> What will happen when you have a heart attack, or find out you have cancer, or get in a life threatening car wreck? What happens if your house burns down or one of your beloved sons dies suddenly? Because...those are the kind of things that happen in life.
> 
> Don't you want a partner who you can count on to lean on during life's hard times? Isn't that what marriage is for? To have that one ally on your side... to have that one person who would never turn her back on you when the storms of life crash on your shore?
> 
> You need to let her know this. She has failed this test repeatedly. You need to make it abundantly clear that you need her to step up and be your ally in life and stop being your enemy. If she cannot hack it, then that is one more strap to unbuckle.


Yes. Bandit, I want a spouse I can depend on for all the things you mentioned, until two weeks ago, I would have said, I have that. Now I do not, I have told her she has failed me and our marriage, I am not excusing her actions, they are hers not mine. I went down the EA path twenty years ago and found myself, and have toed the line every since. Can she do the same, not sure, I guess we will find out in the next couple of months or years. I have also made it clear, repeatedly that if there is one slip up, one more I just could not help myself, we are done. Plan and simple, no lets try it again, maybe she will change, I file and go on with my life, and I expose her to everyone. She knows that and has told me she understands that. That is one of the things I want out of the counseling, how can she do this for four years, and disconnect herself from me, how could I have not figured this out and stopped it years ago? I looked, I knew we were becoming distant to one another, but I never would have thought she would be talking to someone online and sending nude photos to each other and the rest of it.


----------



## bandit.45

lost in Iowa said:


> I went down the EA path twenty years ago and found myself, and have toed the line every since.


Yeah but the difference was, you probably would have stayed by her side even while in the throes of your EA and while it was winding down. I am sure you have stood steadfastly by her during the tragedies in her life. You never abandoned your wife to the extent that she has repeatedly abandoned you. 

So you lost your job? Well, lots of men all over the US lost their jobs during the recession and economic collapse. And many of those men had wives who blamed them for a misfortune that none of them had any control over, and they ended up getting walked out on or cheated on. It was and still is an epidemic. 

Seems like your WW has always expected you to be there for her come rain or shine, but the minute you need her support? Pffffffffffttttttt.......she's gone...like a fart in the wind.

I'm just telling you this so you will keep it fresh in your mind.


----------



## lost in Iowa

bandit.45 said:


> Yeah but the difference was, you probably would have stayed by her side even while in the throes of your EA and while it was winding down. I am sure you have stood steadfastly by her during the tragedies in her life. You never abandoned your wife to the extent that she has repeatedly abandoned you.
> 
> So you lost your job? Well, lots of men all over the US lost their jobs during the recession and economic collapse. And many of those men had wives who blamed them for a misfortune that none of them had any control over, and they ended up getting walked out on or cheated on. It was and still is an epidemic.
> 
> Seems like your WW has always expected you to be there for her come rain or shine, but the minute you need her support? Pffffffffffttttttt.......she's gone...like a fart in the wind.
> 
> I'm just telling you this so you will keep it fresh in your mind.


I will keep it fresh in my mind, I know and she knows how much her actions have hurt me. That is why in my last post, I need to find the answers to the those questions? Am I going to find them here, no, but through talking to her, with a counselor I might. That is what I hope to get out of this for myself. Our marriage has been changed forever, we can not go back, its either forward together or alone. Her action will help me determine my course of action.


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## Mr Blunt

> *By LostinIowa*
> Everyone talks about exposing her affair to our children, I will say, that has* not worked out very well with our daughter, she no longer talks to my wife*. So the chance I will be seeing my grand daughter in the near future is not bright. Yes, I would agree, my wife's actions are what caused me to tell our daughter, and only she can fix that by both of them talking. My wife has tried a couple of timed, our daughters response, "I have nothing to say to you now, work on your problems first, and then we will see."


Are you a juggler? You seem to be trying to juggle several things in the air and keep the balance by your compromising. I forced my wife to tell my children and my daughter not only would not talk to my wife her MOVED OUT OF OUR HOUSE and went to live with my sister. *One of the main reasons my wife came crawling back all crushed is because she had to start paying the consequences for her betrayal. She had to face reality*.

You asked a question a few days ago about someone keeping the family and marriage after exposing and doing the hard line actions. I can tell you that our whole family is still together after 20 years! *After she had to expose to the children and got a touch of reality she came back all broken and destroyed.* I told her to that I will not remarry her and that she will have to live out her consequences. After she proved herself for 4 years I remarried her and we have been a close family for over 20 years. 

The family was strained for 2-4 years before the closeness came back. I am not saying that my wife and I are the example of a great marriage because we are not; we have a good relationship most of the time. However, we have a great relationship with our children and grandchildren.

You say that your situation did not work out very well because you exposed your wife’s betrayal to your daughter. You said that your daughter will not talk to your wife. BOO HOO, big friggen deal! Your wife is getting just a small sample of her consequences. You throw up your fear of not seeing your unborn future grandchild in some distant future. That is weak! You need to understand that what your wife did is going to affect you all and you cannot juggle and compromise so that you can keep the consequences from occurring. The consequences often help the betrayer get down to their root causes and help them to start changing themselves. A betrayer that will sacrifice their marriage and children so that they can get their emotional spikes needs changing. Talk is not enough; they have to prove with actions for a long time! *Consequences can help her take the right actions.* She was bold enough to betray the whole family then she should be bold enough to face her consequences and make the changes to help improve the family relationships.


*She must have the attitude and actions that proves that she will make the family number one even if it means that she has to suffer*. A half-AZZ attitude and actions will produce a half-azz R.


----------



## lost in Iowa

Mr Blunt said:


> Are you a juggler? You seem to be trying to juggle several things in the air and keep the balance by your compromising. I forced my wife to tell my children and my daughter not only would not talk to my wife her MOVED OUT OF OUR HOUSE and went to live with my sister. *One of the main reasons my wife came crawling back all crushed is because she had to start paying the consequences for her betrayal. She had to face reality*.
> 
> You asked a question a few days ago about someone keeping the family and marriage after exposing and doing the hard line actions. I can tell you that our whole family is still together after 20 years! *After she had to expose to the children and got a touch of reality she came back all broken and destroyed.* I told her to that I will not remarry her and that she will have to live out her consequences. After she proved herself for 4 years I remarried her and we have been a close family for over 20 years.
> 
> The family was strained for 2-4 years before the closeness came back. I am not saying that my wife and I are the example of a great marriage because we are not; we have a good relationship most of the time. However, we have a great relationship with our children and grandchildren.
> 
> You say that your situation did not work out very well because you exposed your wife’s betrayal to your daughter. You said that your daughter will not talk to your wife. BOO HOO, big friggen deal! Your wife is getting just a small sample of her consequences. You throw up your fear of not seeing your unborn future grandchild in some distant future. That is weak! You need to understand that what your wife did is going to affect you all and you cannot juggle and compromise so that you can keep the consequences from occurring. The consequences often help the betrayer get down to their root causes and help them to start changing themselves. A betrayer that will sacrifice their marriage and children so that they can get their emotional spikes needs changing. Talk is not enough; they have to prove with actions for a long time! *Consequences can help her take the right actions.* She was bold enough to betray the whole family then she should be bold enough to face her consequences and make the changes to help improve the family relationships.
> 
> 
> *She must have the attitude and actions that proves that she will make the family number one even if it means that she has to suffer*. A half-AZZ attitude and actions will produce a half-azz R.


I when I said my daughter is not talking, I meant to either one of us, I understand the idea of consequences and that her actions have changed our marriage and relationship with our daughter forever. We have no unborn grandson, we had a new grandson three weeks ago. Can she make those changes you talked about here, I would say its up to her. If she cannot we are done, if she can, then we will stay together. I would just rather not be in the situation we are in with our sons, as we are with our daughter. Will they work it out, I do not know, my daughters first husband cheated on her, she divorced and is now remarried, they have one child our grand daughter. She not only has cut her mom presently out of her life, but me also. In her own words, she feels her mother betrayed her. When she was going through her divorce her and my wife talked a lot, now she feels different about what my wife was saying to her, because my wife had been going through her PA at the time, and did not tell our daughter. So she thinks she is a hypocrite.


----------



## happyman64

lost in Iowa said:


> I when I said my daughter is not talking, I meant to either one of us, I understand the idea of consequences and that her actions have changed our marriage and relationship with our daughter forever. We have no unborn grandson, we had a new grandson three weeks ago. Can she make those changes you talked about here, I would say its up to her. If she cannot we are done, if she can, then we will stay together. I would just rather not be in the situation we are in with our sons, as we are with our daughter. Will they work it out, I do not know, my daughters first husband cheated on her, she divorced and is now remarried, they have one child our grand daughter. She not only has cut her mom presently out of her life, but me also. In her own words, she feels her mother betrayed her. When she was going through her divorce her and my wife talked a lot, now she feels different about what my wife was saying to her, because my wife had been going through her PA at the time, and did not tell our daughter. So she thinks she is a hypocrite.


Your daughter is right. Her mother is a hypocrite. She is holding her mother accountable.

You too can hold your wife accountable. She needs consequences or you are just going to be back here a 3rd time.


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## Dyokemm

" I looked, I knew we were becoming distant to one another, but I never would have thought she would be talking to someone online and sending nude photos to each other and the rest of it."

LiI,

Can I ask why you DIDN'T suspect for those 4 years?.....she was already a proven cheat with her PA.

I think this is the danger for successful R that posters are trying to get through to you....your WW is a SERIAL cheat, but YOU are in danger of putting blinders back on and becoming a serial rugsweeper.

Mr.Blunt is right....your WW NEEDS to feel those consequences now.

You confirmed in your response to me that you did hide her first PA for her....I would argue that after a second betrayal you need to expose her cheating, BOTH A's, to your kids now.

She doesn't need LESS of what she is going through with your D....she needs MORE of it.

You need to stop trying to protect her and let her feel the full consequences of what she has done.

If she does the hard work to change, and saves the M with you by doing it, the relationships with your kids will eventually heal because they will see that she loves you and is doing everything necessary to heal you, their betrayed father.


----------



## turnera

Your daughter cutting YOU out of her life sounds really weird. Why is she mad at you? For not kicking her mom out?


----------



## lost in Iowa

turnera said:


> Your daughter cutting YOU out of her life sounds really weird. Why is she mad at you? For not kicking her mom out?


I called and talked to my daughter this afternoon and my grand daughter. I asked her why she has not texted my or called me, she is a teacher also, so we are both home during the day. She did say she was not mad at me, but was worried that if she called at night that my wife would pick up. We talked for a half hour, and I told her that she needs to call her mom so they could talk, it would help both of them. No go on that, her response, "I am not ready to talk to mom yet." 

My wife and I have been talking since she got home from work around 4:15 our time, she had asked me at lunch if I had talked to our daughter, I hadn't, I told her that I called her this afternoon. She was angry that I had, and again that I told her. I told her if she had not started and continued the EA for four years, there would have been nothing to tell our daughter, it was her actions, that caused this mess, and until she realizes that and will accepts her actions then we can not go forward. Again she kept trying to go back to me telling our daughter, and every time I would bring her back with, the EA that you started, that is what I told our daughter about. Without the EA, then we would not have a problem, your actions started this, not mine. I told her she needs to find out exactly why she could not talk to me or a close friend or our daughter, why reach out for a person on the internet, she does not know why, she said maybe the excitement of doing something wrong. I told her that if she cannot conquer that excitement, then this recovery will not be successful. I asked her, did she think I would cheat in the next five years, she said no, so then I asked do you think you will cheat in the next five years. She said no, but I got the feeling she was unsure, there is something in my wife that the counselor must get out of her. Why would a woman risk giving up a 35 year marriage for a fantasy, the thrill, no its something deeper than that. Hopefully tomorrow we will begin to find out what that is.


----------



## turnera

I'm glad you talked to your daughter.

I'm VERY upset that your wife feels she has the right to be mad at you.

That proves that she has NO FEAR that you will leave her. Somehow, that got communicated to her. Otherwise, she'd be kissing your ass right now.


----------



## lost in Iowa

Dyokemm said:


> " I looked, I knew we were becoming distant to one another, but I never would have thought she would be talking to someone online and sending nude photos to each other and the rest of it."
> 
> LiI,
> 
> Can I ask why you DIDN'T suspect for those 4 years?.....she was already a proven cheat with her PA.
> 
> I think this is the danger for successful R that posters are trying to get through to you....your WW is a SERIAL cheat, but YOU are in danger of putting blinders back on and becoming a serial rugsweeper.
> 
> Mr.Blunt is right....your WW NEEDS to feel those consequences now.
> 
> You confirmed in your response to me that you did hide her first PA for her....I would argue that after a second betrayal you need to expose her cheating, BOTH A's, to your kids now.
> 
> She doesn't need LESS of what she is going through with your D....she needs MORE of it.
> 
> You need to stop trying to protect her and let her feel the full consequences of what she has done.
> 
> If she does the hard work to change, and saves the M with you by doing it, the relationships with your kids will eventually heal because they will see that she loves you and is doing everything necessary to heal you, their betrayed father.


I am not sure why I never suspected what she was doing. My youngest son and I went to St. Louis for a ballgame on the 2nd of July, driving down, I told him your mom is becoming very distant from me and your sister, hiding out in the bedroom, doing laundry as an excuse. We went on a cruise last year, my wife has said for years she wanted to go to the Caribbean so we did and had a wonderful time. I really thought after the first PA, and the counseling we were getting closer and only the past year did I start to see we were not. All this time she had been talking to the OM, she fooled me, I guess or maybe I just did not want to see.


----------



## lost in Iowa

turnera said:


> I'm glad you talked to your daughter.
> 
> I'm VERY upset that your wife feels she has the right to be mad at you.
> 
> That proves that she has NO FEAR that you will leave her. Somehow, that got communicated to her. Otherwise, she'd be kissing your ass right now.


I truly do not know if she is mad at me, or mad at herself. I hope she is finally seeing what her actions have done, and what the repercussion will be if she does not change. Only time will tell at that.


----------



## NoChoice

OP,
First and foremost I would like to clarify my intent and what I believe to be the intent of most respondents here. I do not wish to see you divorced, your wife discarded and your 36 year marriage destroyed. I do not wish to see you begin again at 53. I also do not wish to see you here again posting about your failed R and impending D. It is to that end that I posit the following.




lost in Iowa said:


> Am I afraid of loosing her, afraid is not the word to describe how I would feel. To say that the one that feels fear the least is the one in charge is incorrect. We have a marriage a partnership,at this time the partnership is in default I do not want my wife to fear me, I do not fear her. Do I want to start over at age 53, no, I do not, will I if forced to by her lack of actions. Yes, I will. Everyone talks about exposing her affair to our children, I will say, *that has not worked out very well with our daughter*, she no longer talks to my wife. So the chance I will be seeing my grand daughter in the near future is not bright. Yes, I would agree, my wife's actions are what caused me to tell our daughter, and only she can fix that and your daughter is demanding that she follows through by both of them talking. My wife has tried a couple of timed, our daughters response,* "I have nothing to say to you now, work on your problems first, and then we will see."* No its not fear, its the uneasiness of maybe starting over at 53 that bothers me, but not the fear of OK you can cheat all you want if you just stay. No, that will never be the case, I told her tonight, as she went to bed, "what happens to us, if you stray again", her response, "we are through." I told that is right, "it's up to you to make sure that does not happen again", I will not stray, make sure yours are over.





lost in Iowa said:


> Yes. Bandit, I want a spouse I can depend on for all the things you mentioned, until two weeks ago, I would have said, I have that. Now I do not, I have told her she has failed me and our marriage, I am not excusing her actions, they are hers not mine. I went down the EA path twenty years ago and found myself, and have toed the line every since. Can she do the same, not sure, I guess we will find out in the next couple of months or years. *I have also made it clear, repeatedly that if there is one slip up, one more I just could not help myself, we are done. Plan and simple, no lets try it again, maybe she will change, I file and go on with my life, and I expose her to everyone. She knows that and has told me she understands that.* That is one of the things I want out of the counseling, how can she do this for four years, and disconnect herself from me, how could I have not figured this out and stopped it years ago? I looked, I knew we were becoming distant to one another, but I never would have thought she would be talking to someone online and sending nude photos to each other and the rest of it.


To the contrary, I believe it is working out very well and that your daughter is showing exceptional maturity and discernment. Your daughter is holding your wife, her mother, accountable and I find that behavior to be wise beyond her years. Your daughter has made it clear that your wife must make retribution for her misdeeds before she will place trust in her again. Your daughter has given her mother the answer, fix your (character)problem and we'll see. This is as it should be. Cutting communication and not allowing her to see the granddaughter is a consequence. Does your wife see it as a challenge to overcome, to regain her relationship with her daughter, or as her daughter being unduly unfair.

You are attempting to intimidate your wife into compliance by threatening the loss of something she desperately does not want to lose. This can be effective in R but only if she TRULY does not want to lose the marriage. How do you know she does not? That is the question that must be answered in order for the threats to be successful and that is the reason for consequences.

Is the marriage more important than her saving face? Is it more important than her comfort, her status in society, in the family? Her willingness to sacrifice the above mentioned "securities" shows that she is prepared to be vulnerable, prepared to be truly contrite, prepared to bear shame, prepared to be scorned and rejected (daughter) because none of that is more important than her marriage.

Without these indicators and her steadfast willingness to face any and all obstacles how can you know her true intent? You are betting all your money on a horse with a proven negative track record and no evidence of any additional effort put into training and conditioning. Would that be a wise bet?




lost in Iowa said:


> NoChoice said:
> 
> 
> 
> OP,
> Not throwing her to the curb but not coddling her either. She has committed a heinous act against the marriage and she must feel the consequences or she will never fully understand the seriousness of her misdeeds. If she is not willing to face them and fight through them then you have lost her anyway. You are merely delaying the inevitable. This is what you need to understand.
> 
> 
> 
> What would you have me do? Honest question, should I get our sons on the phone, hand it to her and tell her, "tell them what you did", sounds great, except *it just causes her to move further away from us, and closer to divorce*. *How many spouses that had an affair actually told their children, how many told their parents*, hers are on longer with us, but I suppose she could tell mine. *How many of those spouses that did that are still married*? You are right, *if she does not fully understand what she has done, then we are through*. And I will be divorcing her.
Click to expand...

Then she is already facing that way, only she can turn around.

All of those that were truly repentant and desirous of doing whatever was necessary to show that sincerety, even things that were not requested of them.

How many that did not are still married?

My only concern is would you rather know now or months or years from now.

What I would have you do is live your remaining years happy, with your wife at your side and all of your grandchildren running around and your home filled with happiness. That is the motivation for my posts here and elsewhere. I sincerely hope it is your wife's desire as well but without challenges how can one know? In any event, strength and good fortune to you.


----------



## happyman64

Lost

I'm a firm believer in love, marriage and monogamy.

I also subscribe to respect.

Respect for my spouse but also respect for myself.

The problem is your spouse does not respect you. But far worse is her lack of respect for herself.

While I do not think divorce solves all issues and also makes marriages feel disposable I do believe separation, space or showing someone you love the door is sometimes necessary.

The "Let her Go" strategy can work if you have the fortitude.

If you really love her and want her to be happy then pack her a bag, open the door and wish her well.

It is a consequence.

She has already had a physical affair. She was well on her way to a second one.

MC is for a couple that knows they love each other, respect each other and want to stay together.

I truly believe your wife does not know what she wants.

She is selfish. She is lost.

Maybe you have to be the mature adult and show her a direction. She just might need to walk the path alone in order to realize just what she will lose.

Yes you will lose too. I get that. But when you think about your situation haven't you already lost her......

If she is going to come back she needs to do it for herself.

I will leave you with one of my favorite quotes.

*"Very often we don’t go elsewhere because we are looking for another person. We go elsewhere because we are looking for another self. It isn’t so much that we want to leave the person we are with as we want to leave the person we have become."




by Esther Perel*

HM


----------



## lost in Iowa

happyman64 said:


> Lost
> 
> I'm a firm believer in love, marriage and monogamy.
> 
> I also subscribe to respect.
> 
> Respect for my spouse but also respect for myself.
> 
> The problem is your spouse does not respect you. But far worse is her lack of respect for herself.
> 
> While I do not think divorce solves all issues and also makes marriages feel disposable I do believe separation, space or showing someone you love the door is sometimes necessary.
> 
> The "Let her Go" strategy can work if you have the fortitude.
> 
> If you really love her and want her to be happy then pack her a bag, open the door and wish her well.
> 
> It is a consequence.
> 
> She has already had a physical affair. She was well on her way to a second one.
> 
> MC is for a couple that knows they love each other, respect each other and want to stay together.
> 
> I truly believe your wife does not know what she wants.
> 
> She is selfish. She is lost.
> 
> Maybe you have to be the mature adult and show her a direction. She just might need to walk the path alone in order to realize just what she will lose.
> 
> Yes you will lose too. I get that. But when you think about your situation haven't you already lost her......
> 
> If she is going to come back she needs to do it for herself.
> 
> I will leave you with one of my favorite quotes.
> 
> *"Very often we don’t go elsewhere because we are looking for another person. We go elsewhere because we are looking for another self. It isn’t so much that we want to leave the person we are with as we want to leave the person we have become."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> by Esther Perel*
> 
> HM


We talked again tonight, and "Yes" I think my wife is truly lost. Lost in the sense she does not know what she wants after 55 years of age and 36 years of marriage. I again told her that is was her actions not mine that brought our daughter in to this, and I wanted to stay married to her, but she either changes herself or we are done. She stated that she did not want to get married when we did, and she wants a life with just us. I told her that I too was hesitant about marrying when we did, she was pregnant at the time, but do not regret getting married and have turned what was a poor start into a "good" marriage. She said she feels trapped with our handicapped daughter, we can not be like other people, and just go out when we want. I told her that is true, but she is our daughter and our burden. I am the one doing most of the day to day things with our daughter, so really its not on her. She said she just feels lost, not knowing what she wants, she wants to stay married to me, and loves me, but their is a lot of built up resentment in her. Resentment over having a handicapped daughter, over marrying so young. I told her that we have always been the normal, abnormal family, that having a handicapped child has been both a blessing and curse. We have two fine sons that treasure their sister, and they are better for growing up with a handicapped sibling. My daughter in law is always saying how helpful our son is around the house, and their new born son. I think a lot of that is because of the responsibility he learned growing up with a handicapped sibling. We start counseling in the morning, my wife wants to try and get over her depression, but I am not sure she has the will power to be successful. That is what I told her tonight, I am not worried about tomorrow or next week, what about next year, or the year after. When you stop listening to me, and talking to me and retreat back into you own little world, where everything is perfect. Where you are no longer a spouse and mother to a handicapped child but completely free. That is what I worry about.


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## lost in Iowa

I should add we have twin daughters one with CP, she lives at home with us, and other is married and is the mother of our grand daughter, they are 36. We also have two boys they are 29 and 27. The oldest is married and just had our first grandson three weeks ago, the younger one is single and lives in Dallas, the rest live about two hours away from us in Des Moines and Ames.


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## seasalt

Everyone at some point or points in their lives feels trapped or that they are holding the wrong end of the stick but their measure is taken by what they do about it. You may, if it's what you feel, let her know that her talking with you not some internet stranger is finally the proper way to address her feelings.

If she seems to get this message there may be some hope for her and your future together.

Good luck and keep hammering home this point,

Seasalt


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## lost in Iowa

seasalt said:


> Everyone at some point or points in their lives feels trapped or that they are holding the wrong end of the stick but their measure is taken by what they do about it. You may, if it's what you feel, let her know that her talking with you not some internet stranger is finally the proper way to address her feelings.
> 
> If she seems to get this message there may be some hope for her and your future together.
> 
> Good luck and keep hammering home this point,
> 
> Seasalt


I told her that exact thing tonight, why did you reach out for someone on the internet, when you could have talked to me, a friend or our daughter. It was just easier to talk to someone that she did not know and was hurting too. Overtime, they both were drawn to one another, and by doing that, she pulled away from me and our daughter. She went into her own little world, were everything was perfect, he was perfect and she could forget about the day to day living. By talking to someone on the internet, there would be little guilt, they were just "friends", no hard questions asked, no decisions or bad times, its a fairy land where everything is perfect. Unfortunately its not real, it just an illusion and she fell into it. The escape into fantasy was better to her, then the day to day real life the rest of us are living.


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## Ripper

lost in Iowa said:


> She said she feels trapped with our handicapped daughter
> 
> Resentment over having a handicapped daughter


After this conversation, how did you not throw that narcissistic **** out on her ass?


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## lost in Iowa

As I reread what I just wrote, for the first time since I found out about my wife's EA two weeks ago, I am having doubts. Not doubts on my part about wanting to stay together and live out our lives. But doubts about her, whether this is what she truly wants, she says she does. But does she really want that, willing to fight for it, and do everything I ask of her, maybe in the end its a character issue, and for the first time in my life, I am wondering if my wife of 36 years has the ability to see this through. I mean the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence, that is until you get over there, and realize its the same grass you had before.


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## lost in Iowa

Ripper said:


> After this conversation, how did you not throw that narcissistic **** out on her ass?


I have always said its easy to judge a person, until you live their life. No one knows what its like to have a handicapped child, until you have one of your own. Not watching them for a few hours or a weekend., but each and everyday, year after year. Believe me, its not easy, its draining, there are good days and bad days. Please do not judge unless you have been there. If you have my apologies you know what it is like. I have talked to tons of parents of handicapped kids, and they all say the same thing, its like being in a prison at times with no release date. Its a day to day thing, some are good, some are bad, but she is our child and we cope the best we can.


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## Dyokemm

LiI,

I know it is tough to care for a basically helpless family member....ironically, because of all the time off in my teaching schedule, I took on a major caretaking role with my ex-LTgf's dad who was dying of Lou Gehrig's disease for over a year....her mom was a nurse, she did a sales job that required long days and lots of travel, and none of her siblings were in the area. 

I spent most of my free time after school, on weekends, and on vacations caring for and spending time with him when his wife was working or busy with other necessities....it is very draining but I was happy to do it because I loved my gf and really liked her family as well.

A couple weeks before he died, she told him about how her and I had started talking about wedding plans....she wanted him to know she was going to be OK.

He died and it devastated her....she withdrew from me no matter how much I tried to be there for her.

Within 2 months of his death, I caught her cheating with a POS co-worker.....I ended the relationship on the spot...won't tolerate cheating.

Anyway, my point is that yes it is draining and hard on everyone to have to care for someone like that.

But you deal with that burden as much as your WW.....YOU didn't use that as an excuse to go betray her.

While I understand the difficulties, and won't judge her to be a narcissist or monster, I also think it is a pathetic excuse to try and give you....you faced the same challenges without turning into a traitor on MULTIPLE occasions.


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## turnera

I remember watching Kramer vs. Kramer when it first came out. You have to understand that, back then, the notion of a mother walking away from a child was virtually unheard of. Women just didn't do that. Maybe you young people have always had it in your head that you (as a female) could abandon a child and seek greener pastures. But when I was growing up, that was just about the worst possible sin in the world, short of murdering someone.

I bring that up to emphasize that the mind of a woman...is different than the mind of a man. Just as men gain 'stature' in their ability to provide, a woman gains stature in her ability to...mother. 

So when a woman finds herself in a perpetual mothering state, with no end in sight, well, it's just possible that some women don't have it in them, much like the character in the movie.


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## Mr Blunt

> their is a lot of built up resentment in her. Resentment over having a handicapped daughter, over marrying so young.


First I want to tell you LostinIowa that I admire you for not resenting your daughter. I have not had to raise a disabled child but I can admire someone that will sacrifice for their child.


I hope that your wife gets the right help in counselling and takes the right actions. At some point she will have to come to the realization that she CANNOT change the fact that she has a disabled daughter and that she married young. *It is impossible to change those things*. If she really wants to get better for herself, you, and the children she will have to CHANGE HERSELF. *She can start by changing her attitude because what she resents is NOT GOING TO CHANGE*.


She can do the heavy lifting and become better for herself and family or she can decide to remain resentful and avoid the facts and live in a fantasy world. If she chooses the latter she will be in worse shape in the future. I sure hope that she gets good counselling and that she makes the changes she needs to and becomes a mother and wife that can be trusted and close to the whole family.


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## cgiles

LostInIowa, I have a simple question for you :

Are you ready to lost your marriage ?

It can sound dumb, but it is a very important point.


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## jsmart

lost in Iowa said:


> We talked again tonight, and "Yes" I think my wife is truly lost. Lost in the sense she does not know what she wants after 55 years of age and 36 years of marriage. I again told her that is was her actions not mine that brought our daughter in to this, and I wanted to stay married to her, but she either changes herself or we are done. She stated that she did not want to get married when we did, and she wants a life with just us. I told her that I too was hesitant about marrying when we did, she was pregnant at the time, but do not regret getting married and have turned what was a poor start into a "good" marriage. She said *she feels trapped with our handicapped daughter,* we can not be like other people, and just go out when we want. I told her that is true, but she is our daughter and our burden. I am the one doing most of the day to day things with our daughter, so really its not on her. She said *she just feels lost, not knowing what she wants*, she wants to stay married to me, and loves me, but their is a lot of built up resentment in her. *Resentment over having a handicapped daughter*, over marrying so young. I told her that we have always been the normal, abnormal family, that having a handicapped child has been both a blessing and curse. We have two fine sons that treasure their sister, and they are better for growing up with a handicapped sibling. My daughter in law is always saying how helpful our son is around the house, and their new born son. I think a lot of that is because of the responsibility he learned growing up with a handicapped sibling. We start counseling in the morning, my wife wants to try and get over her depression, but I am not sure she has the will power to be successful. That is what I told her tonight, I am not worried about tomorrow or next week, what about next year, or the year after. When you stop listening to me, and talking to me and retreat back into you own little world, where everything is perfect. Where you are no longer a spouse and mother to a handicapped child but completely free. That is what I worry about.


It sounds like she wants fantasy land with new man and resents that she has a special needs daughter. It's only the shame of what people with think of her for abandoning her family that keeps her at home.


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## lost in Iowa

jsmart said:


> It sounds like she wants fantasy land with new man and resents that she has a special needs daughter. It's only the shame of what people with think of her for abandoning her family that keeps her at home.


I am starting to wonder the same thing, not sure its depression or what, but there is NO FUTURE with the OM, he lives 1150 miles away, neither would move to the other. Talking on the internet and meeting from time to time is not a future, its fantasy. I truly thank everyone for their help, some I have followed, some I have ignored, and pissed people off by doing so. I am doing the best I know how. After last night, I think its the depression my wife feels and the endless cycle of dealing with our daughter, that allowed her to find an escape on the internet and her OM and their EA. She is a very bright woman, she knows there is no future there, maybe that is why it went on so long, she got the thrill out of doing something wrong, her words, the enjoyment and none of the day to day grind. After her first affair was exposed, I caught her talking to the guy in her office at work, I stormed in and shoved the man against a file cabinet and tried to provoke a fight, by yelling and poking him in the chest with my finger. While in counseling, she told me, she hoped the first guy would fight for her, and stand up for her, and I told her that shows you what a piece of **** he truly was. I am her husband and she still in her fantasy world, where the white knight, the OM, would fight the bad husband for her hand. Its total BS, when she came out of the fog through counseling she admitted to me it was. Maybe that is what I am fighting here, her fantasy world, and if that is the case, we are doomed, because real life in our case, just can not compete with fantasy, not now or ever. If she chooses the path of fantasy, well then I guess I start over.


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## farsidejunky

Every time you share more I become less optimistic. 

Something is just...off with her.


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## lost in Iowa

farsidejunky said:


> Every time you share more I become less optimistic.
> 
> Something is just...off with her.


I agree, but what is it in her that is off, and can we fix it. If you would meet my wife, you would walk away saying she is a sweet caring woman. For years, friends and relative has commented on how well behaved our children are, no drugs, smart in school, athletics the whole thing.


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## farsidejunky

No you can't. 

Only she can, but she has to want to.

Until you accept that, you will continue to spin your wheels.

Also, the sweet part tells me she can compartmentalize with the best of them. Danger...


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## Thor

lost in Iowa said:


> I agree, but what is it in her that is off, and can we fix it. If you would meet my wife, you would walk away saying she is a sweet caring woman. For years, friends and relative has commented on how well behaved our children are, no drugs, smart in school, athletics the whole thing.


LII, just be very cautious here with trying to figure out what is broken in her. The only important thing is whether she is an acceptable spouse to you. That's it. Whatever it is inside her which has caused these affairs is _totally irrelevant_.

If she is making real efforts to change, if she is working hard on R, then she is on the right path. The chances of your marriage surviving are very good then.

My wife was sexually abused as a child, but she never told me until 29 yrs into marriage. All kinds of behavior issues cropped up over the years, which I mis-handled badly. I should have said at the end of the first 18 months that the situation was _unacceptable_, and either it changed or we were done. Instead I kept making excuses for her.

The excuses were valid from the standpoint she was in a difficult graduate program. Still, I was in a very difficult job but was still there 100% for the marriage.

After she told me of the abuse it explained a lot. But then I went off trying to understand what that all meant. By this point there were many reasons to save the marriage such as finances, kids, etc.

It is easy to lose sight of the fact a spouse is responsible for their own behavior, and are required to continuously work to be a great spouse and to seek help for whatever issues they become aware of.

It isn't your job, and you are not qualified, to be her analyst or therapist. You can and should offer your support for any IC or other help she may seek. But it isn't your job to direct the progress or to do the work for her.

Either she steps up to the plate or she doesn't. Period.


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## Thor

farsidejunky said:


> Also, the sweet part tells me she can compartmentalize with the best of them. Danger...


:iagree:

BTW, if you met my wife or had business dealings with her, you would rightfully judge her to be meticulously honest and straight forward. Yet I now know she has lied and hidden important things from me since we first met 36 years ago.

Yes, a big part of it is compartmentalization. That is a big red flag. The other part is a strong self-protection mechanism. There is no need to protect yourself emotionally from an acquaintance or business contact. But your spouse? Yes you have a lot to lose if your spouse were to leave, so you hide and lie to keep things from them which you believe could cause them to leave you.

This is fundamentally a different mindset and rule set within a relationship. And it requires a certain lack of empathy, along with a different kind of attachment. I don't think it is "love" the way most people define it, because there is a selfishness first rather than selflessness first.

They can still be a very good person in all other respects, but they do have a certain missing ingredient.


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## turnera

My H has almost NO idea what I'm thinking, wanting, or planning. He doesn't want to. I learned years ago that me being honest with him usually ended up me being punished or pushed into a corner to be asked to backtrack: he didn't want to hear what made me unhappy. So I just stopped sharing with him. We've managed to survive 35 years that way, mainly because I was too scared to strike out on my own.

Just sayin', there can be different reasons you don't know the 'truth' of people.


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## Ripper

It is obvious from how you are rationalizing her behavior and defending her that you are going to rugsweep this. You have been down this road before and you know the destination leads right back to where you are at now. Why do you think it will be any different this time?


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## happyman64

Lost

I cannot even begin to tell you how common your families problems are when a special needs child is in the picture.

Infidelity, financial infidelity and a host of other problems are prevalent in your situation.

Im sure if you Google your situation some sources for professional help can be found.

Your wife needs a professional.

HM


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## lost in Iowa

Ripper said:


> It is obvious from how you are rationalizing her behavior and defending her that you are going to rugsweep this. You have been down this road before and you know the destination leads right back to where you are at now. Why do you think it will be any different this time?


I really do not think that I am rug sweeping this at all. Today we met the first time with the psychologist, we both talked a while to him and then he talked with my wife alone. We talked about it over lunch and on the way home. On the form as a pre. diagnosis's he listed Neurotic Depression. They spend a lot of time talking about our handicapped daughter and the stress she is feeling about that. How we may never be able to have a "normal" life together, and everything that goes with living with a special needs child. After ward I asked if talking to him helped, and she stated "yes", she made another appointment in three weeks. Will say it is expensive, and insurance will not cover the cost. It was $150 dollars for one hour, I told my wife do not worry about the money, we will be ok. Back to the rug sweeping, I do not think I have ever defended what my wife has done, as much as try to figure out why she did it. She knows what she did is wrong, and has told me that, many times. I wonder how when I try to figure out what she is thinking and about her actions is that rug sweeping, like some say it is. My wife has hurt me emotionally and mentally over this, but I do want to make it work, that does not mean, I am telling her everything is ok, go back to what you were doing. Just the opposite, everyday since I have found out, I have told her," Last chance, get the problem fixed, or we are through" "I will be here for you, but you must stop this behavior, and never do it again." Some may see that as rug sweeping, showing weakness on my part, you need to man up and show her who is the boss and excepting what she did, I do not. I am just now trying to figure out why she did what she did and how can we fix that. I asked my wife if she mentioned me telling our daughter, she answered "yes", and that it was a bad idea ,to bring others family members into a problem you are trying to fix. His words not mine, to late to change that now.


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## lost in Iowa

Thor said:


> :iagree:
> 
> BTW, if you met my wife or had business dealings with her, you would rightfully judge her to be meticulously honest and straight forward. Yet I now know she has lied and hidden important things from me since we first met 36 years ago.
> 
> Yes, a big part of it is compartmentalization. That is a big red flag. The other part is a strong self-protection mechanism. There is no need to protect yourself emotionally from an acquaintance or business contact. But your spouse? Yes you have a lot to lose if your spouse were to leave, so you hide and lie to keep things from them which you believe could cause them to leave you.
> 
> This is fundamentally a different mindset and rule set within a relationship. And it requires a certain lack of empathy, along with a different kind of attachment. I don't think it is "love" the way most people define it, because there is a selfishness first rather than selflessness first.
> 
> They can still be a very good person in all other respects, but they do have a certain missing ingredient.


I think you just described my wife and the way she thinks to a T, the whole "he is just a friend, and I needed some one to talk to" is her way of compartmentalizing. That way she does not have to deal with the consequences of her actions. Just like when you wreck your car and say its a minor scratch. What she did for most people would be unforgivable, I hear that a lot here. I am not rug sweeping when I say that, I know she has done wrong and she must own up to that, if not and change her behavior, we are through.


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## badmemory

lost in Iowa said:


> I am just now trying to figure out why she did what she did and how can *we* fix that.


Lost,

The decision to cheat was hers. She owns it. This is a moral failing on her part. There is no "we" involved in fixing that. "She" is responsible for finding her own answers - and for convincing you that she is remorseful.

If she does that successfully for long enough, *then* both of you can work on ways to affair proof your marriage.


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## Dyokemm

" I wonder how when I try to figure out what she is thinking and about her actions is that rug sweeping, like some say it is."

This isn't rugsweeping...but, personally, I think it is a major waste of your time and efforts.

There is no understanding betrayal logically IMO....It will NEVER make sense no matter what she tells you....her answers will NEVER be good enough to fill in the gaps in your understanding.

Your near obsession with understanding 'why' she did this tells me that you are probably a 'fixer'...and you keep telling yourself that if you can just get this information, then you can help her to change and fix the issues that are causing her multiple A's.

And you are unwilling to admit the futility of what you are striving to know or understand here....and that 'hanging in there' no matter what, all in hope that the answer is coming soon, is what other posters are seeing as a drift towards rugsweeping.

You seem unable to accept that there will never be a satisfactory or complete 'why'...and therefore their is no way for you to fix this.

And since you seem to be unable to give up this obsessive quest for understanding, the natural inclination or tendency for you will be to rugsweep....to keep 'hanging in there' hoping beyond hope that some miracle will deliver it to you and you can then get to work.

LiI,

The thing is, I'm willing to bet that most of the BS posters on here will tell you that even though they have gotten 'why' answers from their WS's....those answers STILL don't offer them a satisfactory explanation for why they were betrayed...IMO there will always remain a part of the BS that will wonder 'WTF?...why did they do this to me?'

In other words....there is nothing you can fix here AND no amount of info from her is going to allow you to fix this.

It ALL has to come from her....your WW is the only one with a snowball's chance in h*ll to do what is necessary to R and save the M.

And the posters here do not see her doing it.....we simply see you sparing her from consequences and hoping beyond hope that she will start.

Unfortunately that isn't going to happen unless you start showing her those consequences in real life.....expose her A's and contact a lawyer....she needs to truly know she is about to lose EVERYTHING because she can't get her act together.


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## turnera

Good luck, liI. Just stay vigilant, ok? And she needs to show long-term change and openness and transparency. If you see her starting to backtrack or balk at the changes, have the talk.


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## NoChoice

OP,
You must be careful as the counseling proceeds. Some counselors advocate "forgetting about the past" and "starting new", some counselors are rug sweepers. If the past is not objectively scrutinized and is just summarily dismissed as "over and done with" then your wife will feel no obligation to atone for it and there will be little consequence for it and therefore little change in her behavior.

Think of it this way, if a child is disobedient and the parent half heatedly doles out mediocre punishment, the child is never forced to look at what they have done in the light of truth. They do not see the seriousness of their transgression. Since the "punishment" was not very severe then their disobedience could not have been that bad. If it were, the punishment would be much stronger. A "let the punishment fit the crime" type mentality.

Another thought to consider is that your wife may have already decided that this life/marriage is not what she wants. If that is so then no amount of therapy may help to influence her otherwise. I hope this is not the case for your sake and the sake of your daughter.

Be diligent in your observations of how the counselor is directing the sessions. Good fortune.


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## lost in Iowa

badmemory said:


> Lost,
> 
> The decision to cheat was hers. She owns it. This is a moral failing on her part. There is no "we" involved in fixing that. "She" is responsible for finding her own answers - and for convincing you that she is remorseful.
> 
> If she does that successfully for long enough, *then* both of you can work on ways to affair proof your marriage.



When I said we, I mean our marriage, it was her cheating, she must own up to that and continue to do so


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## lost in Iowa

NoChoice said:


> OP,
> You must be careful as the counseling proceeds. Some counselors advocate "forgetting about the past" and "starting new", some counselors are rug sweepers. If the past is not objectively scrutinized and is just summarily dismissed as "over and done with" then your wife will feel no obligation to atone for it and there will be little consequence for it and therefore little change in her behavior.
> 
> Think of it this way, if a child is disobedient and the parent half heatedly doles out mediocre punishment, the child is never forced to look at what they have done in the light of truth. They do not see the seriousness of their transgression. Since the "punishment" was not very severe then their disobedience could not have been that bad. If it were, the punishment would be much stronger. A "let the punishment fit the crime" type mentality.
> 
> Another thought to consider is that your wife may have already decided that this life/marriage is not what she wants. If that is so then no amount of therapy may help to influence her otherwise. I hope this is not the case for your sake and the sake of your daughter.
> 
> Be diligent in your observations of how the counselor is directing the sessions. Good fortune.


The "we must forget about the past and start anew", is exactly what the therapist we saw five years ago said, he lost me the first time I meet the man. This guy was totally different, we got basic information about both her PA and EA, asked a basic history about us, and asked if we both wanted to stay married and work this out. We both said we did, and then he spent most of the half hour I was in the room talking to my wife. He asked us if we wanted some water, and while he was out of the room, I told my wife, if she would feel more comfortable talking to him without me in the room, I would wait outside. When he cam back in, he asked if she would feel more at easy without me in the room, and left in up to me. I told him its up to her, and she said she thought she could talk freely without me so I went outside. That does not bother me, I want to get her help, I do not need to her every detail of her problems.


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## lost in Iowa

turnera said:


> Good luck, liI. Just stay vigilant, ok? And she needs to show long-term change and openness and transparency. If you see her starting to backtrack or balk at the changes, have the talk.


That us the plan, keep an eye on her, until I go back to work on the 18th.


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## lost in Iowa

Dyokemm said:


> " I wonder how when I try to figure out what she is thinking and about her actions is that rug sweeping, like some say it is."
> 
> This isn't rugsweeping...but, personally, I think it is a major waste of your time and efforts.
> 
> There is no understanding betrayal logically IMO....It will NEVER make sense no matter what she tells you....her answers will NEVER be good enough to fill in the gaps in your understanding.
> 
> Your near obsession with understanding 'why' she did this tells me that you are probably a 'fixer'...and you keep telling yourself that if you can just get this information, then you can help her to change and fix the issues that are causing her multiple A's.
> 
> And you are unwilling to admit the futility of what you are striving to know or understand here....and that 'hanging in there' no matter what, all in hope that the answer is coming soon, is what other posters are seeing as a drift towards rugsweeping.
> 
> You seem unable to accept that there will never be a satisfactory or complete 'why'...and therefore their is no way for you to fix this.
> 
> And since you seem to be unable to give up this obsessive quest for understanding, the natural inclination or tendency for you will be to rugsweep....to keep 'hanging in there' hoping beyond hope that some miracle will deliver it to you and you can then get to work.
> 
> LiI,
> 
> The thing is, I'm willing to bet that most of the BS posters on here will tell you that even though they have gotten 'why' answers from their WS's....those answers STILL don't offer them a satisfactory explanation for why they were betrayed...IMO there will always remain a part of the BS that will wonder 'WTF?...why did they do this to me?'
> 
> In other words....there is nothing you can fix here AND no amount of info from her is going to allow you to fix this.
> 
> It ALL has to come from her....your WW is the only one with a snowball's chance in h*ll to do what is necessary to R and save the M.
> 
> And the posters here do not see her doing it.....we simply see you sparing her from consequences and hoping beyond hope that she will start.
> 
> Unfortunately that isn't going to happen unless you start showing her those consequences in real life.....expose her A's and contact a lawyer....she needs to truly know she is about to lose EVERYTHING because she can't get her act together.



Show me where in any of my posts I have said "hang in there, no matter what" I have never said that. If that is case, then why have I been telling her fix tour problems or we are through? If she can not change or is unwilling to change, we are though. Where is it written that I can not get the answers to my questions and hers of what causes her to do this? You are right, in an internet Ea, I will never get 100% of the answers, but unlike most EA's of this type, I do have the emails they sent back and forth to each other. She can not say, I never did that or never said that, because both I and the OMW have read the emails. So when she says, I did not do that or that did not happen, I just have to bring up the email where it did. We talked over lunch about me leaving the room, and I told her the only thing I dislike about it, she likes to minimize her actions, if I was in the room, I could be the one saying she is only giving half the answer there. People here are correct, if she does not want to change, she never will, no matter how many times she talks to the psychologist, she says she wants to change, until her actions prove otherwise, I trust she will go forward and try.


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## Mr Blunt

> I asked my wife if she mentioned me telling our daughter, she answered "yes", and that it was a bad idea, to bring others family members into a problem you are trying to fix. His words not mine, to late to change that now.


Has the counselor experienced telling his daughter and watching the results for 20 Years? I have and the consequences that my wife had to see in reality, the actions that my daughter had to her betrayal, as opposed to her fantasy world, helped a LOT to get my wife out of her fog and see reality and begin R.

Every situation is different and so I do not want to say that is exactly what you should have done but it made a huge difference in my situation that led to the R. In any event, do not allow this counseling to become what you did as a “bad idea”. *The counseling is all about your wife concentrating on making you and your children number one with no exceptions. Getting side tracked on you telling your daughter or not is not the main issue and puts the focus on you.*

I think that you going the extra mile in trying to keep your marriage is going to pay off for you eventually. If it all works and she makes the positive changes then your family can begin healing. If she does not and your family is separated/divorced you will know that you gave it 100% and you do not have to feel any guilt but will know that you gave it a chance. 


Your wife’s resentments and actions for the last 5 years reveal a real serious situation and will require a very serious effort for a long time. You must really love your wife and family because you are willing to suffer quite a bit in order to try and turn the situation into a positive. You are to be admired!
May God be with you because you are going to need Him?


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## Chaparral

There are many situations here that include special needs children. A shocking number really.

In your situation, are you able to have alone time with your wife. Can you be gone days at a time without having to care for your daughter?

What services are available to help you out?


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## lost in Iowa

Chaparral said:


> There are many situations here that include special needs children. A shocking number really.
> 
> In your situation, are you able to have alone time with your wife. Can you be gone days at a time without having to care for your daughter?
> 
> What services are available to help you out?


Services here are few and far between, we have tried respite care in the past, expensive as hell, like $50 dollars and hour, and really we did not trust the people. So alone time is few and far between, my parents have helped out some, but they have their own problems and live 45 minutes away. I did mention to our oldest son today we are thinking about coming up this weekend, visit and attend a local home show. Would could we park his sister there for a couple of hours. My wife did ask a coworker if she knew anyone that would come in every now and then to watch her, so we could have a date night, or just a day out for the two of us, she said her high school daughter might, she would ask them. Overall I feel better tonight, then I have in the past couple of days. We are no were over this, but my wife is more positive and so am I. thanks for listening.


----------



## Dyokemm

LiI,

I wasn't attacking you...sorry if you took it that way.

You were asking questions, maybe rhetorical ones for you, asking why people were calling some of your actions rugsweeping...like the one I quoted.

I actually told you...I DON'T see wanting to know those answers as rugsweeping.....but I still think you are looking for the impossible.

Nearly every BS I have read on TAM or other sites that was betrayed YEARS or DECADES ago and went through R successfully will still mention in their posts that they have heard their WS's 'whys' for the A....and they can see how those things helped create distance or damage in the M....but they STILL can't truly wrap their mind around why their WS chose to have an A.

Many of them often mention that they weren't especially happy in the M at the time either, but THEY didn't cheat....most of them confess they will never truly understand and have just learned that it is something they have had to accept in order to move on and save their M

So no....it is not a natural law that you CAN NEVER get the answers you seek...ANYTHING is possible.

But I think what you are looking for is as rare as hen's teeth.

And trust me, I COMPLETELY UNDERSTAND the near obsessive level of wanting to know and understand everything that has happened.

What first moved me to come to TAM was that same thing....I desperately wanted to try to understand WHY my family had gone through everything it had because of my maternal grandmother's A's and the havoc they wrecked on my family.

I too questioned constantly why in the h*ll would she have done those horrible things that so damaged her BH, her kids, and even indirectly her grandkids.

But in all I have read, I can honestly say I have a better understanding of the dynamics and consequences of A's, and even of the marital conditions that seem to make M's ripe for them.

HOWEVER, to this day I cannot fathom the mind and decision making process of cheaters.....they simply make NO logical sense to me....I guess because I would NEVER act that way, no matter what.....I value my own dignity and character too much.

I have accepted I will never have an 'a ha' moment and suddenly and totally understand what motivates a traitor....and understanding that, I know there is NOTHING I could do to ensure I would never be cheated on.

My post to you was intended to implore you to not let that overwhelming desire to KNOW why this happened lead you to stay in a situation beyond hope if your WW doesn't start doing the hard work to change...which even your latest posts seem to indicate she still doesn't 'get it'.

It was in no way an attack on you....I understand you are in a very horrible situation.


----------



## eric1

You sound like an excellent parent. Your daughter is very lucky to have you


----------



## Chaparral

lost in Iowa said:


> Services here are few and far between, we have tried respite care in the past, expensive as hell, like $50 dollars and hour, and really we did not trust the people. So alone time is few and far between, my parents have helped out some, but they have their own problems and live 45 minutes away. I did mention to our oldest son today we are thinking about coming up this weekend, visit and attend a local home show. Would could we park his sister there for a couple of hours. My wife did ask a coworker if she knew anyone that would come in every now and then to watch her, so we could have a date night, or just a day out for the two of us, she said her high school daughter might, she would ask them. Overall I feel better tonight, then I have in the past couple of days. We are no were over this, but my wife is more positive and so am I. thanks for listening.


What about state support? Money, facilities. My grandmother, many years ago did some nursing in facilities that were specifically set up for that. I don't know what your specific situation is but your daughter might also like a change occasionally. I hope I'm just not being totally ignorant. Prayers for your family.


----------



## arbitrator

Dyokemm said:


> LiI,
> 
> I wasn't attacking you...sorry if you took it that way.
> 
> You were asking questions, maybe rhetorical ones for you, asking why people were calling some of your actions rugsweeping...like the one I quoted.
> 
> I actually told you...I DON'T see wanting to know those answers as rugsweeping.....but I still think you are looking for the impossible.
> 
> Nearly every BS I have read on TAM or other sites that was betrayed YEARS or DECADES ago and went through R successfully will still mention in their posts that they have heard their WS's 'whys' for the A....and they can see how those things helped create distance or damage in the M....but they STILL can't truly wrap their mind around why their WS chose to have an A.
> 
> Many of them often mention that they weren't especially happy in the M at the time either, but THEY didn't cheat....most of them confess they will never truly understand and have just learned that it is something they have had to accept in order to move on and save their M
> 
> So no....it is not a natural law that you CAN NEVER get the answers you seek...ANYTHING is possible.
> 
> But I think what you are looking for is as rare as hen's teeth.
> 
> And trust me, I COMPLETELY UNDERSTAND the near obsessive level of wanting to know and understand everything that has happened.
> 
> What first moved me to come to TAM was that same thing....I desperately wanted to try to understand WHY my family had gone through everything it had because of my maternal grandmother's A's and the havoc they wrecked on my family.
> 
> I too questioned constantly why in the h*ll would she have done those horrible things that so damaged her BH, her kids, and even indirectly her grandkids.
> 
> But in all I have read, I can honestly say I have a better understanding of the dynamics and consequences of A's, and even of the marital conditions that seem to make M's ripe for them.
> 
> *HOWEVER, to this day I cannot fathom the mind and decision making process of cheaters.....they simply make NO logical sense to me....I guess because I would NEVER act that way, no matter what.....I value my own dignity and character too much.
> 
> I have accepted I will never have an 'a ha' moment and suddenly and totally understand what motivates a traitor....and understanding that, I know there is NOTHING I could do to ensure I would never be cheated on.*
> 
> My post to you was intended to implore you to not let that overwhelming desire to KNOW why this happened lead you to stay in a situation beyond hope if your WW doesn't start doing the hard work to change...which even your latest posts seem to indicate she still doesn't 'get it'.
> 
> It was in no way an attack on you....I understand you are in a very horrible situation.


* I'm basically finding myself in tacit agreement with most all of your sentiments! 

But it's interesting to note that while the military often either executes or incarcerates "traitors," the American family judicial system as well as our state legislatures sets things up for them to hide their infidelic atrocities through inadmissability as evidence, or simply rewards them for their scurrilous efforts at deception to their spouse, their families, and God only knows who else!*


----------



## MattMatt

lost in Iowa said:


> I am starting to wonder the same thing, not sure its depression or what, but there is NO FUTURE with the OM, he lives 1150 miles away, neither would move to the other. Talking on the internet and meeting from time to time is not a future, its fantasy. I truly thank everyone for their help, some I have followed, some I have ignored, and pissed people off by doing so. I am doing the best I know how. After last night, I think its the depression my wife feels and the endless cycle of dealing with our daughter, that allowed her to find an escape on the internet and her OM and their EA. She is a very bright woman, she knows there is no future there, maybe that is why it went on so long, she got the thrill out of doing something wrong, her words, the enjoyment and none of the day to day grind. After her first affair was exposed, I caught her talking to the guy in her office at work, I stormed in and shoved the man against a file cabinet and tried to provoke a fight, by yelling and poking him in the chest with my finger. While in counseling, she told me, she hoped the first guy would fight for her, and stand up for her, and I told her that shows you what a piece of **** he truly was. I am her husband and she still in her fantasy world, where the white knight, the OM, would fight the bad husband for her hand. Its total BS, when she came out of the fog through counseling she admitted to me it was. Maybe that is what I am fighting here, her fantasy world, and if that is the case, we are doomed, because real life in our case, just can not compete with fantasy, not now or ever. If she chooses the path of fantasy, well then I guess I start over.


He lives 1150 miles away?

At the moment. Or what if he really only lives 1150 yards away?

Or what if the next EA is with a chap who lives in the next town? Or the next street?

She needs counselling, ASAP.


----------



## lost in Iowa

Chaparral said:


> What about state support? Money, facilities. My grandmother, many years ago did some nursing in facilities that were specifically set up for that. I don't know what your specific situation is but your daughter might also like a change occasionally. I hope I'm just not being totally ignorant. Prayers for your family.


We do not quality for any state or federal support, we have too much income. Our daughter is even on our insurance, we are in the money bracket that hurts a lot of people today, you make to much to quality for state or federal aid, but not enough to be able to pay yourself, over and over. College for her siblings was the same way.


----------



## lost in Iowa

MattMatt said:


> He lives 1150 miles away?
> 
> At the moment. Or what if he really only lives 1150 yards away?
> 
> Or what if the next EA is with a chap who lives in the next town? Or the next street?
> 
> She needs counselling, ASAP.


She stated counseling yesterday, and has a second appoint in three weeks, earliest she could get it. She told me last night, when the hour was up, she wanted to continue talking to him. She stated she was at ease, and wanting to talk and find answers to her actions. From what I have researched, the internet EA's are fairly new thing, starting in the last 10 years or so. In most cases, if the EA ends, the spouse rarely finds out about them unless the cheating spouse breaks up the marriage. My case was unusual that I found the emails and changed her code so I could read them. The OM wife had no idea her husband had been doing it also. Every one has a computer at work, it's very easy to set a gmail account, hell you could name it anything that you wanted, and leave it on your work desktop it, most would never figure it out that it was for cheating. If she has another EA we are done, I have made a point of telling her that each and everyday, and will continue to do so. In her case she stated that she was looking for someone far away to talk to, it would lessen the chance that they would be tempted to meet, but in her case they still did meet the one time. But it took a lot of planning.


----------



## lost in Iowa

eric1 said:


> You sound like an excellent parent. Your daughter is very lucky to have you


Thank you, but I am not any more special than millions of other parents in the US, doing the same thing. Years ago, we were sent a verse that stated that God had a need for special set of parents to watch over this handicapped child, and he choose you, because he knew you would be up for the challenge. That sound nice, but it is far from the truth, we were just the unlucky few parents that had this placed on them, and deal with it day to day the best we can. As I have stated, we are the normal, abnormal family, its been a blessing and a curse, and will most likely be that way for the rest of our lives. My wife and I have both decided that our daughter will live with us until we can no longer care for her, but we will not ask her siblings to do it. When that day comes she will be moved to a home for people with special needs. We will not burden our other children with this problem.


----------



## lost in Iowa

Dyokemm said:


> LiI,
> 
> I wasn't attacking you...sorry if you took it that way.
> 
> You were asking questions, maybe rhetorical ones for you, asking why people were calling some of your actions rugsweeping...like the one I quoted.
> 
> I actually told you...I DON'T see wanting to know those answers as rugsweeping.....but I still think you are looking for the impossible.
> 
> Nearly every BS I have read on TAM or other sites that was betrayed YEARS or DECADES ago and went through R successfully will still mention in their posts that they have heard their WS's 'whys' for the A....and they can see how those things helped create distance or damage in the M....but they STILL can't truly wrap their mind around why their WS chose to have an A.
> 
> Many of them often mention that they weren't especially happy in the M at the time either, but THEY didn't cheat....most of them confess they will never truly understand and have just learned that it is something they have had to accept in order to move on and save their M
> 
> So no....it is not a natural law that you CAN NEVER get the answers you seek...ANYTHING is possible.
> 
> But I think what you are looking for is as rare as hen's teeth.
> 
> And trust me, I COMPLETELY UNDERSTAND the near obsessive level of wanting to know and understand everything that has happened.
> 
> What first moved me to come to TAM was that same thing....I desperately wanted to try to understand WHY my family had gone through everything it had because of my maternal grandmother's A's and the havoc they wrecked on my family.
> 
> I too questioned constantly why in the h*ll would she have done those horrible things that so damaged her BH, her kids, and even indirectly her grandkids.
> 
> But in all I have read, I can honestly say I have a better understanding of the dynamics and consequences of A's, and even of the marital conditions that seem to make M's ripe for them.
> 
> HOWEVER, to this day I cannot fathom the mind and decision making process of cheaters.....they simply make NO logical sense to me....I guess because I would NEVER act that way, no matter what.....I value my own dignity and character too much.
> 
> I have accepted I will never have an 'a ha' moment and suddenly and totally understand what motivates a traitor....and understanding that, I know there is NOTHING I could do to ensure I would never be cheated on.
> 
> My post to you was intended to implore you to not let that overwhelming desire to KNOW why this happened lead you to stay in a situation beyond hope if your WW doesn't start doing the hard work to change...which even your latest posts seem to indicate she still doesn't 'get it'.
> 
> It was in no way an attack on you....I understand you are in a very horrible situation.


As I reread what you wrote, its I that should apologize. It has been a long and trying past 16 days. Unlike my wife, I try to look at a problem at every angle and come up with the best solution. I am always telling my students you need to do what I call a self check from time to time to determine the why and how you are doing things. Other do not care, my wife is one of those types of people, she never asked herself, what is my goal here, and where can it lead. They both stated that they would not leave their spouse, the distant between them would allow for very few meeting between them. So I guess they both thought it would be safe to just talk, and unburden themselves with problems that they thought they could not talk to their spouse about. I would say that in itself is a moral and character flaw, they both have it. But that is what they did.


----------



## lost in Iowa

Been spending the morning, reading about online EA, I read a few articles the other day, and again this morning. Was actually surprised about the amount of information on this new type of EA, I cut and pasted some the articles and sent them to my wife. Generally the WS starts this kind of affair because something is lacking in their marriage, so they go looking for an online "friend". They divided up the online EA into two groups, people that are on sex sites, and talking others, and people looking for a "friend" to talk too. My wife is in the second group. They all stated that EA's of this type progress quickly, because as the EA talks to one another, a none threating bond forms, and they tend to begin cyber sexing and what not. Neither spouse necessarily wants to meet, that will come later, just talk. They said that since its is a none threatening environment, its much easier to open up to one another, and the person you are talking too, does not know if what you are saying is the truth or not. Which leads to a fantasy situation, the OP is perfect and you start to draw away from your spouse. This is exactly what my wife did, I helped to read and reflect on what others have gone through. Here, things are improving slowly, but getting better, there is still little or no trust on my part, trust but verify. First thing this morning I checked her ipad and her work account, nothing there. I did get an email from the OMW yesterday, I had sent her an email asking if she could access her husbands gmail account, she said that he had already deleted everything and closed the account. He told her that he generally deleted emails from my wife after he had read them so not to leave a trace of them talking. One question, if I send him an email on his gmail account, would it be returned if the account it deactivated? I do not want to talk to the guy, just determine if the account has truly been deactivated or not. Thanks for listening.


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## Thor

You could create a fake email account with gmail and with another service. Use a false name with it, not your own! Send a stupid message not related to you or your wife. Then see if you get the emails returned as undeliverable.


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## lost in Iowa

Thor said:


> You could create a fake email account with gmail and with another service. Use a false name with it, not your own! Send a stupid message not related to you or your wife. Then see if you get the emails returned as undeliverable.



Thank you, I will give this a try.


----------



## lost in Iowa

Just tried sending an email to the OM, and it was returned, OMW is correct the email address is no longer in use. Trust but verify.


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## Chaparral

We have had wives/mothers here that have left their families to move long distances to be with a man they have never met in real life. Others have gone on trips to meet up and the left their families. It blows my mind.


----------



## lost in Iowa

Chaparral said:


> We have had wives/mothers here that have left their families to move long distances to be with a man they have never met in real life. Others have gone on trips to meet up and the left their families. It blows my mind.


I guess having an affair causes people to do crazy things.


----------



## happyman64

lost in Iowa said:


> I guess having an affair causes people to do crazy things.


Stick around. You will see plenty of "crazy".

And it is quite sad.


----------



## Natthewife

turnera said:


> Print out the proof, save a copy somewhere else. Make sure you bank accounts are set so that she can't take real money out without your signature. See a lawyer to know your rights so you'll know what you're talking about when you confront her.
> 
> When you do, you'll tell her you know about it, and you expect her to stop. You expect her to give you access to her electronics. You expect her to send him a No Contact letter and never contact him again. You expect her to go to therapy with you. And you expect her to commit to the marriage.
> 
> And when she tells you she won't, that you can't tell her what to do, you calmly reply 'that's what I expected you to say. My lawyer is waiting to hear from me.'
> 
> You get up and leave the room. Then you go someplace else, sit down, and call her parents, her siblings, her best friend, and her pastor if she has one. You tell them that she is cheating on you - AGAIN - and that you're making plans to divorce her, unless they can talk some sense into her.
> 
> Then you either go back home and sit and wait for the sh*tstorm, and wait it out and just keep repeating that you WILL be divorcing unless she accepts your conditions for keeping her in your life - or else you go stay somewhere for a few days, incommunicado, to REALLY freak her out. And then have that conversation a when you get back.
> 
> You only get one chance to do this right. A cheater MUST have consequences, to 'learn' not to do it again. Sounds like she never got any the first time around. So she needs to see that you are a ROCK this time. She gets ONE chance, and NO time to think about it, she either gives it all up or she loses you immediately.
> 
> That is how you stop a cheater. NO mercy, not at first, not until she agrees to give up the cheating. Women HAVE to see a strong man who won't put up with her crap. Please trust us on this. If you don't show strength immediately, you will lose your one chance to turn this around.



I couldn't give a better reply if I tried. This sounds like a plan if you haven't done so already


----------



## ConanHub

lost in Iowa said:


> I guess having an affair causes people to do crazy things.


Chicken or egg conundrum.

I think people have gone batshyt crazy to start fvcking around.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dyokemm

"Stick around. You will see plenty of "crazy"."

lmao....understatement of the year right here.


----------



## Katiemelanie

lost in Iowa said:


> Long time viewer of this site, male 53, wife 55, we have four children, one being a special needs child that still lives at home with us, other kids are married and out of the house. We have been married for 36 years, wife had an affair five years ago, pretty sure she only slept with the guy one time, went through counseling and have been trying to do my best to make my wife feel special, and show how much I love and need her. Two weeks ago, we were at the hospital waiting for the birth of our first grandson, I asked her if I could use her ipad to check my work email, I am a teacher, so I have the summer off. When I went to log into my gmail account, I saw a strange gmail account name, fancynancy, not even close to my wife's name. When we got home a couple of days later, I told her that I needed to hear her say she loved me, and had she been doing anything that I would not approve off, she went off, and we fought for a week. Things quieted down over the fourth and we fooled around fro the first time in 10 days. I kept checking her ipad, but the account name had been set back to her work email. Today, after doing some searching on her ipad, found her gmail account open, also saw that she was still logged in on her work account, I went in and reset her password on her gmail account, and it allowed my to access the fancy nancy account. I read 477 posts that I found in the account, going all the way back to May 2014, pretty sure that she had another gmail account before her current one. She has met a guy on-line. She started sending naked photos of herself to him, and he sent four to her. They met 2 hours away in April when she had to go to a meeting for a few days, according to the emails, they just talked, kissed and groped a little. The emails were clear, they did not sleep together, but my wife was more than willing. The guy is married with a family, no chance to ever get his name, he is not local, and travels a lot. I have copies of about 30 emails and photos sent they sent to each other in a secure place. Not sure what to do, I do not want a divorce, getting too old to start over, but I can not live with the current situation. I plan on asking her confronting her tomorrow when she gets home from work. She is smart enough to figure out that I hacked into her gmail account and changed the password, she will just open up a new gmail account if I do not say something. Tell me what to do.




You know what?! That pisses me off. I'm sorry but she has been lying to you. I don't care if she said she didn't sleep with the guy. She cheated on you. I was married to a man like that. I would find out who this guy is and contact HIS wife because she needs to know too. She is probably thinking she is crazy and unsure of why her own husband is distant. 

Ok sorry...enough of a rant. I think you need to pack a bag and go on a trip by yourself to allow you some time to think about all this. And to send her a clear message that this is not ok. She will respect you for this. If you just forgive her or look away she will not respect you. Go somewhere fun and relaxing!


----------



## lost in Iowa

Katiemelanie said:


> You know what?! That pisses me off. I'm sorry but she has been lying to you. I don't care if she said she didn't sleep with the guy. She cheated on you. I was married to a man like that. I would find out who this guy is and contact HIS wife because she needs to know too. She is probably thinking she is crazy and unsure of why her own husband is distant.
> 
> Ok sorry...enough of a rant. I think you need to pack a bag and go on a trip by yourself to allow you some time to think about all this. And to send her a clear message that this is not ok. She will respect you for this. If you just forgive her or look away she will not respect you. Go somewhere fun and relaxing!


If you read through the whole thread, you can see I did end up finally getting ahold of the OMW. We are a little less than three weeks into our R, my wife has been helped, or she says so by talking to our counselor. She told me on Friday, that she had told her best friend at work about talking to a "friend" on the internet, I asked her what her BF thought about it, and she said it was ok to have friends. I then ask my wife if she had told her about the nude photos they sent back and forth. She said she did not. Well to me that does change the relationship between two people, talking to someone is one thing, not right, but at least understandable. Send naked photos is a whole different ballgame. My wife is finally seeing that now, so that is good. Last night we were talking about the birth of our first grandson, we had spent the day with him, and I told my wife she had ruined that day for me, and I asked her if she knew why? She said that is the day you found the gmail account I was using, and I told her "no." I would not break into the account for another week, you ruined it for me, because what should have been a special and cherished moment between us and our family, you emailed him like five times while we were waiting. You sent him a photo of you holding our new born grandson, that is why you ruined it for me. Now when I think about his birth, I think about you emailing your "friend" and not worrying or caring about me. We have been talking more, the past week, I have decided to enter individual counseling for myself and hopefully will be able to put this past me and not forget but at least forgive her, but I have told her, for that to happen, its going to take a long time, and lot of work by her.


----------



## farsidejunky

So let me get this straight, LII. She is still hiding that she had an affair by mischatacterizing the nature of her relationship to her best friend, and you think you need IC to learn how to forgive her???

Dafuq?

Forgiving someone who shows remorse is certainly easier than trying to forgive someone with whom you must attempt to coax the remorse out of (which is what you are doing), and then pretend that her regret somehow looks like remorse.

You need IC, alright. But not to learn how to forgive your wife, but rather to learn how to love and respect YOURSELF.


----------



## lost in Iowa

farsidejunky said:


> So let me get this straight, LII. She is still hiding that she had an affair by mischatacterizing the nature of her relationship to her best friend, and you think you need IC to learn how to forgive her???
> 
> Dafuq?
> 
> Forgiving someone who shows remorse is certainly easier than trying to forgive someone with whom you must attempt to coax the remorse out of (which is what you are doing), and then pretend that her regret somehow looks like remorse.
> 
> You need IC, alright. But not to learn how to forgive your wife, but rather to learn how to love and respect YOURSELF.


She has told the friend about the affair, when I said she had told her about emailing another man, it was months ago. It just bothers me the way she can infer one thing, but not go into the details. Her friend knows that I found the emails, and we are in R, I do not know the extent of what her friend knows about my wife and her relationship with the OM. I just found it odd, that she had told her months or even years ago that she was talking to someone on the internet, and yet she did not tell me and I did not figure it out.


----------



## Thor

lost in Iowa said:


> It just bothers me the way she can infer one thing, but not go into the details.


This is one strategy of the practiced liar/deceiver. Do not think it is an oversight on their part, or a quirky thought process of theirs. It is an intentional strategy to deceive.


----------



## RWB

LiI,

Listen to Dyokemm... I personally pissed away many good years of my life wrapped up in the..._ "Where I fit into the WHY?"_



Dyokemm said:


> ...There is no understanding betrayal logically IMO....*It will NEVER make sense no matter what she tells you*....her answers will NEVER be good enough to fill in the gaps in your understanding.


Oh so True.

6 years out from DD, it still makes no sense, never will. It took me years before I accepted this truth. Affairs defy Logic.



Dyokemm said:


> ...those answers STILL don't offer them a satisfactory explanation for why they were betrayed...IMO there will always remain a part of the BS that will wonder 'WTF?... *Why did they do this to me?*


As my IC said early on... Her affairs were really never about you. It was all about HER. Pure SELFISH indulgence. Her only concern about You... not getting caught.


----------



## lost in Iowa

Thor said:


> This is one strategy of the practiced liar/deceiver. Do not think it is an oversight on their part, or a quirky thought process of theirs. It is an intentional strategy to deceive.


You may be right, we were just talking about leaving out details, for example she had told her friend about talking, but did not mention the details about sending nude photos. I asked her what she told her friend about meeting him, and she said that she told her that they had planned to meet in April, and gave her his name, business and address in case something did happen to her. For the woman here, do you talk to your close friends and give details about your life, or just give out the readers digest condensed version of what you did or are doing? I told her this morning, that total transparency means that she should volunteer information, instead of me asking her specially about every detail. I told her, that the difference between us, is I want all the details, she would rather not know any of the details about my EA twenty years ago. I told her neither is the right way, its just we are different. If you want a true R, then you need to open up and tell me everything, without me having to ask, just tell me, everything that happened, and leave out nothing. Talking about her friend this morning, she had told me that she had filed for divorce from her husband a month ago, they have 3 kids and a rocky marriage. She was seeing someone else, and I had asked her if they had slept together, she said no, her friend would not do that. This morning, she said that her friend had slept with the other man a couple of times after she filed. She and her husband this past week having tried to R, I told my wife, her friend, needs to tell her husband what she did. Her response, "why should she do that, she had filed for divorce?". I told my wife, that her friend and husband can not have a true R, if they are holding secrets from each other, what happens if he finds out in 6 months or a year? If they want to try to make their marriage work and improve, she needs to be truthful about sleeping with the other man, and then let her current husband decide from there.


----------



## turnera

You're doing well. You've learned a lot and you're helping her see the truth of it.


----------



## bandit.45

I just don't understand why his WW, a woman of her age, has to be taught basic morality and propriety. 

It's almost like a meteorite fell out of the sky and knocked 100 IQ points off her brain. This is a mature woman, wife and mother. My God....

Iowa, don't you get tired of being your WW's teacher?


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## Mr Blunt

Filing for divorce does not take away the damage that having sex with the OM does to the innocent spouse. Especially now that she wants to R with her husband whom she betrayed. Your wife’s comments about her friend’s situation (why should she tell her husband) prove that she is dangerously ignorant about an affair. Your wife’s friend’s betrayal has changed the marriage permanently.

Your wife does not know the extent of the seriousness that betrayal does to the BS. Either that or she is down playing it to protect herself.


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## phillybeffandswiss

lost in Iowa said:


> You may be right, we were just talking about leaving out details, for example she had told her friend about talking, but did not mention the details about sending nude photos. I asked her what she told her friend about meeting him, and she said that she told her that they had planned to meet in April, and gave her his name, business and address in case something did happen to her. For the woman here, do you talk to your close friends and give details about your life, or just give out the readers digest condensed version of what you did or are doing? I told her this morning, that total transparency means that she should volunteer information, instead of me asking her specially about every detail. I told her, that the difference between us, is I want all the details, she would rather not know any of the details about my EA twenty years ago. I told her neither is the right way, its just we are different. If you want a true R, then you need to open up and tell me everything, without me having to ask, just tell me, everything that happened, and leave out nothing. Talking about her friend this morning, she had told me that she had filed for divorce from her husband a month ago, they have 3 kids and a rocky marriage. She was seeing someone else, and I had asked her if they had slept together, she said no, her friend would not do that. This morning, she said that her friend had slept with the other man a couple of times after she filed. She and her husband this past week having tried to R, I told my wife, her friend, needs to tell her husband what she did. Her response, "why should she do that, she had filed for divorce?". I told my wife, that her friend and husband can not have a true R, if they are holding secrets from each other, what happens if he finds out in 6 months or a year? If they want to try to make their marriage work and improve, she needs to be truthful about sleeping with the other man, and then let her current husband decide from there.


Interesting so, your wife keeps like minded friends. Sorry, if you do work it out, this friend has to go.


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## lost in Iowa

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Interesting so, your wife keeps like minded friends. Sorry, if you do work it out, this friend has to go.



The gal I mentioned and my wife work in same office, we live in a community of 2600 people, there are four office gals where my wife works. The city clerk, my wife, dept. city clerk, a new gal that started two weeks ago and her friend. So its hard for me to tell my wife, your friend must go when they work together. I spoke to her about talking to her friend again in the car a while ago. Her response was she was not going to get involved with telling the friend.


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## lost in Iowa

bandit.45 said:


> I just don't understand why his WW, a woman of her age, has to be taught basic morality and propriety.
> 
> It's almost like a meteorite fell out of the sky and knocked 100 IQ points off her brain. This is a mature woman, wife and mother. My God....
> 
> Iowa, don't you get tired of being your WW's teacher?


I do not look at me being her teacher, I have stated my wife does not sometimes reflect on what her actions will do to her or us. Its really never been a problem until the past five years or so. My wife does not have a ton of close friends, I guess she thinks its none of her business, and if it comes down to it, she will choose her cheating friend over not having the gals friendship. Like I said, they do work together, its kind of like wife and friend vs the boss. The new gal has not worked there long enough to pick a side. Worse think about living in a small town, there are not a lot of jobs out here paying 16 bucks an hour. Her job is three blocks from our house, she gets a state pension, and gives her lots of freedom.


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## lost in Iowa

Mr Blunt said:


> Filing for divorce does not take away the damage that having sex with the OM does to the innocent spouse. Especially now that she wants to R with her husband whom she betrayed. Your wife’s comments about her friend’s situation (why should she tell her husband) prove that she is dangerously ignorant about an affair. Your wife’s friend’s betrayal has changed the marriage permanently.
> 
> Your wife does not know the extent of the seriousness that betrayal does to the BS. Either that or she is down playing it to protect herself.


Not trying to pick sides here, but if you had a friend/coworker having an affair, you have met his wife but do not consider her a friend to you or your wife. Would you tell his wife and risk the friendship? The coworker is your friend, not his spouse, its easy to say a moral person would tell the spouse, which is true. But how many people here would tell a friends spouse about their friends affair, if the gal was really not your friend?


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## phillybeffandswiss

lost in Iowa said:


> The gal I mentioned and my wife work in same office, we live in a community of 2600 people, there are four office gals where my wife works. The city clerk, my wife, dept. city clerk, a new gal that started two weeks ago and her friend. So its hard for me to tell my wife, your friend must go when they work together. I spoke to her about talking to her friend again in the car a while ago. Her response was she was not going to get involved with telling the friend.


Your explicit literal parsing and interpretations would be funny, if this wasn't such a sad situation.


I have many coworkers and a select few are friends. There are a few that are now in the "were" category and they only get a cordial "hello."

Yes, she can lose her as a friend. 
Yes, she has "to go" from your marriage. 
Yes, she can only talk to her about work. 
Yes, you can easily tell her this is one of her consequences.

Your wife is fully to blame, but what if she had a friend who said "WTH are you doing?" Instead, she had someone in the same boat as her and both were rationalizing what they were doing to their husbands.


So, do you really want your wife bouncing ideas of a newly divorced cheater who was claiming "I was only talking?" 

So, no, she can "go" as a friend and it is only hard for your wife.


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## turnera

lost in Iowa said:


> The gal I mentioned and my wife work in same office, we live in a community of 2600 people, there are four office gals where my wife works. The city clerk, my wife, dept. city clerk, a new gal that started two weeks ago and her friend. So its hard for me to tell my wife, your friend must go when they work together. I spoke to her about talking to her friend again in the car a while ago. Her response was she was not going to get involved with telling the friend.


So she's already balking at doing what you need for recovery? Not a good sign.


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## art

Once a cheat always a cheat move on or accept it will happen again she feels she needs the extra attention
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lost in Iowa

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Your explicit literal parsing and interpretations would be funny, if this wasn't such a sad situation.
> 
> 
> I have many coworkers and a select few are friends. There are a few that are now in the "were" category and they only get a cordial "hello."
> 
> Yes, she can lose her as a friend.
> Yes, she has "to go" from your marriage.
> Yes, she can only talk to her about work.
> Yes, you can easily tell her this is one of her consequences.
> 
> Your wife is fully to blame, but what if she had a friend who said "WTH are you doing?" Instead, she had someone in the same boat as her and both were rationalizing what they were doing to their husbands.
> 
> 
> So, do you really want your wife bouncing ideas of a newly divorced cheater who was claiming "I was only talking?"
> 
> So, no, she can "go" as a friend and it is only hard for your wife.


Philly, I gather from your post that you work in a large company, you said you had many coworkers. My wife has three to choose from, one is new. Do I want my wife bouncing ideas of a newly divorced cheater, no I do not, but they are still coworkers. That does not mean that I have to be friends with her or socialize with her. I have met her husband, but really would not say I would call him anymore than an acquaintance. I tell my students all the time, you see the world as black and white, if you do this, then I clearly do this. I have found that in the real world, the black and white, what is right and wrong in a lot of cases, is covered by a huge grey area. Not right, not wrong, just none of my business. There are a lot of issues today that people say its right or wrong, black or white, but when it happens to them, the grey starts to come to the surface. I am not making excuses for my wife, I told her, she should talk to the friend, and tell her, she should tell her husband. But that is a far as I will go, like I said, its not my problem, I have enough to worry about.


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## lost in Iowa

turnera said:


> So she's already balking at doing what you need for recovery? Not a good sign.


I would not say she is balking at what I asked, I never told her that she must tell her friend. I really do not think its any of our business, maybe in a different time, but we have our own problems. Why go looking for a fight that does not concern us?


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## lost in Iowa

art said:


> Once a cheat always a cheat move on or accept it will happen again she feels she needs the extra attention
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I will say that posts like this really just piss me off. It is very easy to sit at your computer and make comments about people that you have never met and will never meet, because in our life you had this happen to you and here is how you would handle it. People have said that I am making excuses for my wife, that I should divorce her and never look back. Which is easy for anyone to say, except when it happens to you, then what was once black and white, is no longer the case. Strange thing about emotions, they cause you act differently than you normally would. 

Do I think my wife is a bad person, a serial cheater, no, I do not. She made two hugely bad decisions, and it has costs us both greatly. If she makes another decision along these lines, we are through, she knows that and has told me that. I kind of thought the idea behind recovery, was working through the problems and trying to make sure that they do not happen again. Is that not the case? Each story does have two sides to it, and one of the problems of the internet, you only get one side. I know what my wife would say about her actions, the same things she has told me. "I was lonely, you were unemployed and was worried about that, so I did not want to bring up more problems". A poor way of dealing with things, she knows that.


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## Affaircare

lost in Iowa, 

It sounds to me like YOU are the one who is balking--"she only works in an office of four" and "I never told her she must tell her friend." 

Let me tell you the truth from the point of view of a Former Disloyal Spouse (and I've earned my "former" so yep, it's capitalized). ANY connection she has with the OP is a continuation of the affair, including being connected by a friend of a friend who knew a friend who knows the OP. Here's why: the affair may be WAY on the back burner and may have cooled off, but it's not off the stove! She can get a little tiny sip of affair high just by talking to the friend ABOUT the guy or hearing info from the friend what the guy is up to! It's like an addict who doesn't really quit the drug, but for the facade and the image of quitting, they cut it way down and do just enough to convince people they have quit when really they have just strung out the times they have their little taste. 

For this to be TRULY over--TRULY--two things have to occur: 

1) SHE has to have a change of heart and not be the same woman she has been now twice! SHE has to want to be faithful. SHE has to pursue it, and face some painful things, and eat some crow because SHE committed adultery! You can't "make" her be faithful--you don't want to have to police your own spouse nor be her "father"--and you don't need to seek vengeance. In real life, the actions she chose result in some very painful consequences SUCH AS losing some friends who mean something to her. 

2) SHE has to 100% completely and fully, of her own accord, end all contact with the OP ... AND ANYONE INVOLVED IN THE AFFAIR who knew about it, who was a friend of the affair, who knew "them" as a couple, or who supported/encouraged the affair. Each and every day that she chooses to remain friends with that friend, she is choosing to be loyal to "a friend" rather than being loyal to "her spouse"--who is the person to whom that loyalty is due! 

So rather than making excuses in your mind for why she couldn't possibly end her friendship with this "friend," change your perspective. Anyone who knew about the affair and did not counsel her to end it immediately and bring the truth to light, is an enemy of the marriage and will counsel her again to hide it from you and pursue her own happiness ahead of the good of the family. This is NOT the kind of person you want to have as a "friend." The issue is that YOU can not make her change her heart! You can have a fit and try to force her...but all that would be is controlling. The goal is that SHE would want to change her heart of her own accord and want to choose and act ON THE SIDE OF HER MARRIAGE AND HER FAMILY...not on the side of "a friend." 

I do get it--jobs are scarce and in small towns it's even harder--but what a STRONG statement it would be if, of her own accord, she told that friend: "I had an affair and that was not respectful to my husband. During the affair, I talked to you and you didn't counsel me to honor my commitment and work to fix my marriage, so our friendship is over. I have to work here and so do you, and I will treat you with respect due to a co-worker, but as of right now, I am turning to my husband to talk through everything I think and feel."


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## lost in Iowa

Affaircare said:


> lost in Iowa,
> 
> It sounds to me like YOU are the one who is balking--"she only works in an office of four" and "I never told her she must tell her friend."
> 
> Let me tell you the truth from the point of view of a Former Disloyal Spouse (and I've earned my "former" so yep, it's capitalized). ANY connection she has with the OP is a continuation of the affair, including being connected by a friend of a friend who knew a friend who knows the OP. Here's why: the affair may be WAY on the back burner and may have cooled off, but it's not off the stove! She can get a little tiny sip of affair high just by talking to the friend ABOUT the guy or hearing info from the friend what the guy is up to! It's like an addict who doesn't really quit the drug, but for the facade and the image of quitting, they cut it way down and do just enough to convince people they have quit when really they have just strung out the times they have their little taste.
> 
> For this to be TRULY over--TRULY--two things have to occur:
> 
> 1) SHE has to have a change of heart and not be the same woman she has been now twice! SHE has to want to be faithful. SHE has to pursue it, and face some painful things, and eat some crow because SHE committed adultery! You can't "make" her be faithful--you don't want to have to police your own spouse nor be her "father"--and you don't need to seek vengeance. In real life, the actions she chose result in some very painful consequences SUCH AS losing some friends who mean something to her.
> 
> 2) SHE has to 100% completely and fully, of her own accord, end all contact with the OP ... AND ANYONE INVOLVED IN THE AFFAIR who knew about it, who was a friend of the affair, who knew "them" as a couple, or who supported/encouraged the affair. Each and every day that she chooses to remain friends with that friend, she is choosing to be loyal to "a friend" rather than being loyal to "her spouse"--who is the person to whom that loyalty is due!
> 
> So rather than making excuses in your mind for why she couldn't possibly end her friendship with this "friend," change your perspective. Anyone who knew about the affair and did not counsel her to end it immediately and bring the truth to light, is an enemy of the marriage and will counsel her again to hide it from you and pursue her own happiness ahead of the good of the family. This is NOT the kind of person you want to have as a "friend." The issue is that YOU can not make her change her heart! You can have a fit and try to force her...but all that would be is controlling. The goal is that SHE would want to change her heart of her own accord and want to choose and act ON THE SIDE OF HER MARRIAGE AND HER FAMILY...not on the side of "a friend."
> 
> I do get it--jobs are scarce and in small towns it's even harder--but what a STRONG statement it would be if, of her own accord, she told that friend: "I had an affair and that was not respectful to my husband. During the affair, I talked to you and you didn't counsel me to honor my commitment and work to fix my marriage, so our friendship is over. I have to work here and so do you, and I will treat you with respect due to a co-worker, but as of right now, I am turning to my husband to talk through everything I think and feel."


The guy that me wife was having the EA with, does not know my wife's coworker, and they have never met. I would be worried if my wife's coworker was friends with the OM, but they are not. The only information the coworker has is what my wife has told her. Its the coworker that slept with another man, after she filed for divorce, not my wife. Sorry about what happened to you, but that is not what happened at all here.


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## lost in Iowa

"I had an affair and that was not respectful to my husband. During the affair, I talked to you and you didn't counsel me to honor my commitment and work to fix my marriage, so our friendship is over. I have to work here and so do you, and I will treat you with respect due to a co-worker, but as of right now, I am turning to my husband to talk through everything I think and feel."



I hope one day my wife would tell her coworker this, but I know as sure as I am typing this, that day will not be tomorrow. Do I think my wife is committed to this recovery, yes, I do. Is she willing to tell our two sons and daughter in law, what she did, no she is not, at this time, will that change in the future, I do not know. Can we have a full recovery and only tell our daughter and SIL, her boss and other friend/coworker? I do not know, but right now, that is where we are at.


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## phillybeffandswiss

lost in Iowa said:


> Philly, I gather from your post that you work in a large company, you said you had many coworkers. My wife has three to choose from, one is new. Do I want my wife bouncing ideas of a newly divorced cheater, no I do not, but they are still coworker.
> 
> 
> That does not mean that I have to be friends with her or socialize with her. I have met her husband, but really would not say I would call him anymore than an acquaintance. I tell my students all the time, you see the world as black and white, if you do this, then I clearly do this. I have found that in the real world, the black and white, what is right and wrong in a lot of cases, is covered by a huge grey area. Not right, not wrong, just none of my business. There are a lot of issues today that people say its right or wrong, black or white, but when it happens to them, the grey starts to come to the surface. I am not making excuses for my wife, I told her, she should talk to the friend, and tell her, she should tell her husband. But that is a far as I will go, like I said, its not my problem, I have enough to worry about.


Your logical fallacies are killing me.


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## lost in Iowa

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Your logical fallacies are killing me.


I am glad I could make your day. But you did not answer my questions. Care to play along, or just sit on the side lines and yell out at the coach, telling everyone that will listen on how you would run the team.


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## Nucking Futs

lost in Iowa said:


> I am glad I could make your day. But you did not answer my questions. Care to play along, or just sit on the side lines and yell out at the coach, telling everyone that will listen on how you would run the team.


You are unquestionably in a false R. It's not hard to tell the difference. In a real R, the wayward is willing to do _anything_ to save the relationship. It's only in a false R that the wayward tells you what she will or won't do.

Bottom line, every action she tells you she won't take is something that is more important to her than you and your relationship. She doesn't want to lose her friend? That friend is more important to her than you. She doesn't want to tell son/daughter in law? Her pride is more important than you and your relationship. She doesn't want to lose her job? Her job is more important than you and your relationship.

It's not a hard concept. 

You're sweeping this affair under the rug just like the last one, and probably the next one. Assuming this one is actually over and not just on hiatus.


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## phillybeffandswiss

lost in Iowa said:


> I am glad I could make your day. But you did not answer my questions. Care to play along,


 Show me the questions and I will respond. Your responses to me contained none. 
What I find interesting is you become angry when people suggest consequences for your wife.



lost in Iowa said:


> or just sit on the side lines and yell out at the coach, telling everyone that will listen on how you would run the team.


No, I am like the highway information board. I warn you of an oncoming accident, but you still become angry when traffic grinds to a halt a few exits later.


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## turnera

lost in Iowa said:


> I would not say she is balking at what I asked, I never told her that she must tell her friend. I really do not think its any of our business, maybe in a different time, but we have our own problems. Why go looking for a fight that does not concern us?


Maybe it's getting lost in your translation. The way you wrote it, you wanted her to clear up what happened with the 'friend/coworker' and she said no.


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## lost in Iowa

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Show me the questions and I will respond. Your responses to me contained none.
> What I find interesting is you become angry when people suggest consequences for your wife.
> 
> No, I am like the highway information board. I warn you of an oncoming accident, but you still become angry when traffic grinds to a halt a few exits later.


Philly, I think if we had met under different circumstances we could have been friends, but in my current state, I see you sitting back and taking pot shots at me. You said I become angry about consequences for my wife, please explain how this is suppose to help our recovery? How is telling our sons and daughter in law suppose to help in that recovery? Gain sympathy from them, but does that not drive her further away from me and our goal of recovery. I posted on this site three weeks ago, my goal was to gain knowledge and support, I gain some knowledge, but have not really gotten a lot of support. Remember, we are trying to recover our marriage, not divorce. For the past three hours tonight, my wife and I have been talking. We have gone over and over the same ground, and I know it pisses her off, but if I have learned anything the these past three weeks, is I am trying. If she is not willing, she says she is, but if she does not change, no matter how much I want this to work it will not. Tonight, I told her that the OMW and I were the victims here, and the she and the Om were the guilty ones. My actions or OMW did not cause either of you to seek out and find one another, you choose to do so, and ignored any feelings about it being wrong. You were just friends, and could not talk to your spouse, but that is not the truth, you found each other and chose to no longer talk to your spouse but to each other. Stop blaming your actions and his on us, and reflect on your poor choices, that is what started this whole thing, and if you cannot change that pattern of choices, then it will be the end off our marriage, just like it ended the OM's marriage.


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## turnera

liI, we don't take pot shots at people like you. We try to get you to see the logic in your situation. And we can do that because your situation is NOT unique, there IS a script all cheaters follow, as well as a script BSs follow, and we're here, hovering at 50,000 feet (meaning we don't have the emotional connection you do, so we can say what needs to be said that will save your situation. What YOU feel like is a potshot is our attempt to WAKE YOU UP to the hard steps that you need to take for ANY chance to save the marriage.


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## lost in Iowa

Simple question for the board, when does friendship become more than seeing the person as a friend? They are not lovers yet, but more than friends. Tonight, I had my wife, take her phone and read to me emails she had sent to her friends. When she finished, I asked her to describe the relationship she has with that person. Her response "they are a friend". So then I asked her, if they are friends and you have told me that the OM you was emailing was just a friend, why did you end all of your emails to him with xoxoxox, but you did not do that with your other friends? Can you be a friends with benefits if you are not actually sleeping together? When does friendship cross the line to love? Tonight, my wife told me she wanted him to be her lover, after thinking about it, I told her to never tell me that again. It's one thing to think it, another to actually say it to your spouse. My wife is over weight, but I would never dream of telling her she is fat. How can he be your lover, when you met once, and did not sleep together, and he is 1150 miles away? Its just a depression fantasy, and nothing more, I would love to win the lottery, I buy tickets every now and then. But I know, I will never win. Fantasies are fine to think and dream, but when you start to act on them, then life gets a whole lot more complicated.


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## lost in Iowa

turnera said:


> liI, we don't take pot shots at people like you. We try to get you to see the logic in your situation. And we can do that because your situation is NOT unique, there IS a script all cheaters follow, as well as a script BSs follow, and we're here, hovering at 50,000 feet (meaning we don't have the emotional connection you do, so we can say what needs to be said that will save your situation. What YOU feel like is a potshot is our attempt to WAKE YOU UP to the hard steps that you need to take for ANY chance to save the marriage.


I hear what you are saying, and you are right, but no one has answered my basic question. How does forcing my wife to tell what she did too our sons, help the situation? Our daughter knows, is that not enough?


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## Mr Blunt

> B*y Lostiniowa*
> Not trying to pick sides here, but if you had a friend/coworker having an affair, you have met his wife but do not consider her a friend to you or your wife. Would you tell his wife and risk the friendship? The coworker is your friend, not his spouse, its easy to say a moral person would tell the spouse, which is true. But how many people here would tell a friends spouse about their friends affair, if the gal was really not your friend?





> My main point was that_ *“Your wife does not know the extent of the seriousness that betrayal does to the BS. Either that or she is down playing it to protect herself.”*_ I said this because of your statement below:





> This morning, she said that her friend had slept with the other man a couple of times after she filed. She and her husband this past week having tried to R, I told my wife, her friend, needs to tell her husband what she did. Her response,* "why should she do that, she had filed for divorce?”*


Your wife’s answer is not a good sign IMO. Your wife thinks that filing for divorce, then having an sexual affair, then coming back to her husband and wanting an R is reason to withhold very important information? Your wife’s thinking is warped IMO.

As far as your wife’s friend at work that slept with the OM and now wants to R with her shusband, that is a diversion from the real issue with you and your wife. *Your wife should be only concentrating on herself and you*. Your wife should not be getting into another person’s betrayal because she cannot even handle her own betrayal.


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## lost in Iowa

Nucking Futs said:


> You are unquestionably in a false R. It's not hard to tell the difference. In a real R, the wayward is willing to do _anything_ to save the relationship. It's only in a false R that the wayward tells you what she will or won't do.
> 
> Bottom line, every action she tells you she won't take is something that is more important to her than you and your relationship. She doesn't want to lose her friend? That friend is more important to her than you. She doesn't want to tell son/daughter in law? Her pride is more important than you and your relationship. She doesn't want to lose her job? Her job is more important than you and your relationship.
> 
> It's not a hard concept.
> 
> You're sweeping this affair under the rug just like the last one, and probably the next one. Assuming this one is actually over and not just on hiatus.


My wife is not going to loose her job. Yes, its is a hard concept, how is asking my wife to chose me or telling her children a pride thing. Are they going to see her less of a person, maybe, but how does that help our situation? Again, more rug sweeping, is there a manual that one should follow for situations like this? I am really asking, do I have to do exactly step one, then step two right down the list, or can I pick and choose? How do I know when its over, and not in hiatus? With time, I am sure I will know, but how do I answer that question today, at this very moment? I understand people that have gone through this want to help, give me advise, and I appreciate that. But how does causing my wife to give up one of her close friends, and coworker help her and therefore help me? Does it just not drive a wedge between us, I am not indorsing her friend, we have talked about it, and I have advised her she needs to tell her friend. Is this a moment, I should say, you either do it or we are done? Should I end our marriage on this one single hole in the ground? If I had all the answers, I would be an author writing and selling self help books on how to fix a cheating spouse, instead I am here asking for common sense advise.


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## lost in Iowa

Mr Blunt said:


> Your wife’s answer is not a good sign IMO. Your wife thinks that filing for divorce, then having an sexual affair, then coming back to her husband and wanting an R is reason to withhold very important information? Your wife’s thinking is warped IMO.
> 
> As far as your wife’s friend at work that slept with the OM and now wants to R with her shusband, that is a diversion from the real issue with you and your wife. *Your wife should be only concentrating on herself and you*. Your wife should not be getting into another person’s betrayal because she cannot even handle her own betrayal.


Thank you, some good common sense advise, I totally agree we both need to stop talking about the friend and working on our problems. Again, thank you.


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## Mr Blunt

> By *LostinIowa*
> I hear what you are saying, and you are right, but no one has answered my basic question. How does forcing my wife to tell what she did too our sons, help the situation? Our daughter knows, is that not enough?


*If your wife needs to face up to the devastation that she has caused the family and wants to be accountable for her great damage to the marriage then she cannot hold the truth from all family members that are affected or will be affected by her actions.*


One reason that the truth needs to be presented is that your sons need to know that you were badly hurt by their mother. If they see you distant from her or affected then they need to know why; otherwise they may think that you are just being unreasonable with their mother. Secondly, your wife needs to tell every family member that is or will be affected. Your sons will be affected if you D! Your sons may also be affected if you R and you are not the same with your wife. Thirdly, your wife, if not truly remorseful, and not taking the right actions to prove that remorse, will need to live up to more consequences that she has brought to the family. Consequences can be a GREAT MOTIVATOR TO GET OUT OF THE FOG AND TO BREAK DOWN DEFENSES THAT ARE A BARRIER TO REMORSE.


That is what I have concluded based upon your posts so far. If you think that I am wrong then tell me why if you want. I know that you know your situation better than I do but remember you are not in the best shape right now and do not have the experience of having a successful R. However, you may know what is best for you and your wife in your situation.

I am not trying to rag on your wife because you and your wife need all the help that you can get and if you have a successful R then that will be best for the whole family. I do admire you in many ways because you are trying desperately to save your marriage. You and your wife have done some things that I think are helpful in obtaining a R.


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## Nucking Futs

lost in Iowa said:


> My wife is not going to loose her job. Yes, its is a hard concept, how is asking my wife to chose me or telling her children a pride thing. Are they going to see her less of a person, maybe, but how does that help our situation? Again, more rug sweeping, is there a manual that one should follow for situations like this? I am really asking, do I have to do exactly step one, then step two right down the list, or can I pick and choose? How do I know when its over, and not in hiatus? With time, I am sure I will know, but how do I answer that question today, at this very moment? I understand people that have gone through this want to help, give me advise, and I appreciate that. But how does causing my wife to give up one of her close friends, and coworker help her and therefore help me? Does it just not drive a wedge between us, I am not indorsing her friend, we have talked about it, and I have advised her she needs to tell her friend. Is this a moment, I should say, you either do it or we are done? Should I end our marriage on this one single hole in the ground? If I had all the answers, I would be an author writing and selling self help books on how to fix a cheating spouse, instead I am here asking for common sense advise.


You completely missed the point. It's not the certain steps I laid out, those were just examples. The problem here is your wifes attitude. She wants to save the marriage, but only under certain conditions. If there are things you need her to do that she refuses to do then those things are more important to her than the marriage. Don't get hung up on specifics, don't go looking for a list of do this, this and this and your marriage will be saved. It doesn't work like that.

One of the big hangups you see in threads like this is a written time line. It's recommended to have the wayward write out a complete time line of the affair, listing each contact. There's a few reasons for it. One, you need to know what you're forgiving, and a written time line will let you sit down and think about what you were doing, what was going on with your family while she was off with her AP. This is where people figure out that their wayward was cheating on them while they were sick, or taking care of sick kids/parents/pets, whatever. Two, it makes it much more difficult for the wayward to lie after that. From then on, you have something you can compare what you're being told to. If the time line says she did xyz on the third Tuesday of last week and she later says she did abc that day you know she doesn't have the story straight and is still lying to you. Waywards really don't want to do this, and come up with every excuse in the book not to. Betrayeds are frequently so co-dependent that they defend the silly excuses the wayward is giving because they don't want to hurt the waywards feelings. We're not emotionally involved with the situation and see how ridiculous the excuses get, but sometimes we just can't get through.

That's what we're dealing with with you. You're co-dependent, and right now you're so close to the situation you can't see the bigger picture. We're trying to direct your attention to that bigger picture but you're fighting it.

Your wife has cheated twice. She's a serial cheater. She _will_ cheat again. I know you don't think she's a serial cheater, and you think you can straighten her out, but she is and you can't. She can straighten herself out but it takes hard work in therapy, and frankly it doesn't appear your wife has it in her to do what needs to be done to become the person you think she is now.


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## JustSayin

Lost in Iowa,

First let me say that I have read this entire thread and, much like others here, I’m going to tell you some things that you don’t want to hear. I see a man who is desperately trying to save a 36 year marriage. There is nothing wrong with that – 36 years is a long time, you have a history and family together. However, sadly, I see a woman who is simply trying to excuse her actions and save face. Stop falling for it! Your wife may be depressed and she may have been lonely, but that does not excuse her actions (not even once, much less twice). She left your marriage a long time ago, please wake up and see that. 

You have mentioned that you told your daughter and that your wife was not happy about you doing so. You’ve said that your daughter is no longer speaking with her mother. You said you haven’t told your sons or daughter-in-law and from what I’ve gathered you don’t plan to and nor does your wife. You’ve asked what good would it do it reveal the transgressions to all of your children, so I’m going to bring things back to your daughter who knows and ask you some questions. Aren’t you sons going to notice that your wife and daughter aren’t speaking? Don’t your sons have just as much a right to know as your daughter does? How is your daughter handling things? Aren’t you putting an awful lot of stress on her asking her to keep this secret? Are you willing to destroy your daughter to save your marriage?


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## BobSimmons

lol. Be back when this reaches page 399.


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## lost in Iowa

Thanks to everyone for the advice, I woke up this morning, and for the first time since starting recovery, I thought to myself "we are not going to make it". My wife does not want to change or is unwilling to change or actions, she said this morning, as she left for work "I love you", and I thought yes, you do love me, but not enough to change the way you act and feel. Therefore I have decided to go back to lurking and stop posting here for a while, I have to many thoughts and decisions to make that will effect my future as well as my family's future. Hopefully we can work this out, but right now, I just do not know. If we cannot I will be stronger for dealing with this, and hopefully I will be able to move on with or without my wife.

Thanks again.

Lost in Iowa


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## G.J.

lost in Iowa said:


> Thanks to everyone for the advice, I woke up this morning, and for the first time since starting recovery, I thought to myself* "we are not going to make it". *


Your conclusion is correct and if after further thought on the advice given by many members who have a wealth of knowledge you will begin to realize that some times a relationship has to be taken apart and rebuilt from the ground up to be successful again


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## turnera

Simply making that observation gives you the control you need to actually have a SHOT at making it.


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## lost in Iowa

A little update, overall its been a very good week. After posting my last post, I sent an email to my wife at work, basically saying the same thing I said in my post. I did not think we were going to make it. My wife emailed me back, saying she had called her counselor and wanted to talk to him. She met with him for 30 minutes, on Monday, all he had time for. When she got home, I asked if she wanted to talk, and she said "yes", so we went upstairs. I was sitting on chair, my wife on the bed, and she broke down crying, saying that it was all her fault, she had caused this whole mess, and would I take her back and forgive her. She had asked the counselor, about it, and he told her, that she and only she, was responsible for her actions, that everything else was just an excuse. She said when he told her that, it felt like a ton of bricks and been lifted off her. He told her to go home, confess to your husband and pray that he will forgive you for what you have done, and hopefully he will take you back. She asked the counselor if she had crossed the line of "friendship" with the other man, and he basically told her, "you know you did". He was much more than a friend. I have spoken to the OMW, there has been no contact between them that we know. I start individual counseling on Monday. We have been spending a lot of time this week just talking about it, me questioning and her answering. She just admits it was a stupid thing to do, she realizes she jeopardized our marriage and future, by doing it, and could I forgive her. I told her that I would like to start counseling before I could forgive her, not forget, but forgive. But it is going to take some time. I had asked my wife before was the emails the only communication between them, she said they had talked on the phone, when I asked how many times, she said less than 10. I had found two on her cell phone, and last night I looked at our land line, she had called him five times there, and spoke to him twice. She stated that he had called her a few times at work, but she had never used her work phone to call him. When I emailed her this morning about the number of calls, her response, was "I told you that we had talked on the phone" but it is behind us, and she said she is committed to making our marriage work. I talked to our cell provider yesterday, and they are going to mail me a list of her text messages for the last eight months. She said they did not text, so if that is true, I think I have found out about everything I can. Now to start counseling myself and work out the doubts in my mind, and work together to strengthen our marriage. Thanks for listening. LOI


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## happyman64

Good update LOst.

And I like her counselor's stance on the affair.

Now your wife has reacted in a positive way.

I know you are hurting but continue to support her actions and encourage her to be honest with you and herself....

HM


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## bandit.45

Like I said before, your WW is a long way off from feeling remorse. Right now she is mourning the loss of the OM and the affair. Her head is a bag of cats. She has so many conflicting emotions bouncing around that it is impossible for her to isolate how she feels about what she has done to you and her marriage. 

IF she continues in her counseling, IF you continue the 180 and begin to become more emotionally independent from her, and IF you show her strength and conviction and that you are more than willing to end the marriage and walk away at a moment's notice, she may begin to crack and eventually see what she has to lose. 

The old adage here on TAM... _"You have to be willing to lose your marriage in order to save it..."_ is so true on so many levels. When you have detached to the point where you can go both ways with equal comfort...staying with her or divorcing her....then she will see that, and it might cause her to get off the fence. I see some progress but she has a long way to go.


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## Mr Blunt

Your wife has said words that are very good for the initial steps to R. If you know that her attitude has taken a change for the better then you have another giant step to R. The counselor was well worth the money.

Keep getting good guidance as there is a LOT more to R and the *actions over a long period of time will tell you the 100% truth*. At this point you have a lot more positive than you did a few weeks ago. *Learn what you need to take a stand on and do not compromise but do be compassionate, strong and helpful to yourself and her*. I know that is a delicate balance but that will help.

I hope that you and your wife are successful!


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## lost in Iowa

Simple question, at what point do you stop digging for evidence against your spouse for her unfaithfulness? I asked because in counseling yesterday the counselor stated that you need to put it behind you and continuing to dig for more information reaches a point of being counter productive to the cause of getting over my wife's EA. Today I got the text messages in the mail that she had sent the OM, she had texted him 54 times since October of last year. Most of the texts were in their two sexting sessions, one in November and other in February. To be clear out of the 54 texts she sent him, something like 35 were doing those two nights. I understand I need to continue to monitor her cell phone and emails and such, but do you reach a point of just digging to be digging up new dirt. The texts really did not tell me anything new that their emails hadn't already talked about. 
Overall things are getting better at the one month mark, she has recommitted back to me and our daughter, she is trying to make up with our other daughter. I know not to let down my guard, but I told her last night, I am not worried about you this month, or next, its a year from now or two. The counselor did say that it generally takes two years for a couple to put an EA behind them. God its going to be a long two years at this rate.


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## turnera

I agree that there's a point where it's counterproductive and holding you hostage.

And from everything I've seen, it DOES take at least two years. Of all the marriages that have NOT made it after infidelity, most ended within 1 to 2 years.


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## Thor

You need to establish a sense of trust that she has been fully honest with you about what happened, how, when, why, and where. Only then can you move forward establishing trust into the future. Establishing trust going forward takes years, but you can't do that if you don't feel secure she has established a new baseline of being honest today. If you think she may still be lying, you can't ever trust her in the future.

Be sure you aren't setting her up to catch her lying. The human memory is very fallible, so she may not remember what she wrote in a text, or what she did on a certain date.

I think you continue to dig until you feel you understand the full scope and nature of her affair. Each person needs a different level of data about what happened. Learn what you need but stop when you are torturing yourself.


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## lost in Iowa

Thor said:


> You need to establish a sense of trust that she has been fully honest with you about what happened, how, when, why, and where. Only then can you move forward establishing trust into the future. Establishing trust going forward takes years, but you can't do that if you don't feel secure she has established a new baseline of being honest today. If you think she may still be lying, you can't ever trust her in the future.
> 
> Be sure you aren't setting her up to catch her lying. The human memory is very fallible, so she may not remember what she wrote in a text, or what she did on a certain date.
> 
> I think you continue to dig until you feel you understand the full scope and nature of her affair. Each person needs a different level of data about what happened. Learn what you need but stop when you are torturing yourself.


I hate to admit it, but I am one of those types of people that likes to torture myself over the details. I have deleted all the emails and I even got rid of the flash drive that I had saved them on. I have read them, the OMW read them. I know that if I had kept them, I would continue to look at them and try to glean more information about her EA. I am really at a point where I have read enough. I do agree that regaining trust is going to take a lot of time, and her continued truth about what happened, and yes, memory is sometimes tricky about events even a year or two ago. Thanks for listening. LOI


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## Mr Blunt

> *By LostInIowa*
> Simple question, at what point do you stop digging for evidence against your spouse for her unfaithfulness?


*In your situation you need to stop digging*. You already know that she betrayed you 5 years ago and again recently. You have texts, her statements, naked pictures she sent to the OM, and she has admitted that she was more than willing to have sex with him. What more do you need and how will that help you? You getting more evidence will not be the best way to spend your time and energy.

*Your time and energy would be better spent building you up and becoming more self-reliant.* Your wife seems to be improving but you cannot tell at this point if she is going to make you the number one man to the exclusion of all others. Your wife is weak and so are you and no one can build you up as much as you can. What she has to do to make an R work is mostly her working on herself. The really hard battle she has to do is mostly up to her and there is not a lot you can do for her. If her counselor is a good one then he/she will give her the right information and advice but* it is up to her to make that internal change.*


*You digging for more evidence is like a detective digging for more evidence when the criminal has already pleaded guilty.* There are other things that the detective can do that would be more productive. I know it is tempting to want to know all the gory sex details but your job is to get yourself stronger so that you can be alright with her or without her. *She knows what you want so either she is going to make those internal changes or she is not; not much you can do for her but a LOT you can do for you.
*


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## lost in Iowa

Mr Blunt said:


> *In your situation you need to stop digging*. You already know that she betrayed you 5 years ago and again recently. You have texts, her statements, naked pictures she sent to the OM, and she has admitted that she was more than willing to have sex with him. What more do you need and how will that help you? You getting more evidence will not be the best way to spend your time and energy.
> 
> *Your time and energy would be better spent building you up and becoming more self-reliant.* Your wife seems to be improving but you cannot tell at this point if she is going to make you the number one man to the exclusion of all others. Your wife is weak and so are you and no one can build you up as much as you can. What she has to do to make an R work is mostly her working on herself. The really hard battle she has to do is mostly up to her and there is not a lot you can do for her. If her counselor is a good one then he/she will give her the right information and advice but* it is up to her to make that internal change.*
> 
> 
> *You digging for more evidence is like a detective digging for more evidence when the criminal has already pleaded guilty.* There are other things that the detective can do that would be more productive. I know it is tempting to want to know all the gory sex details but your job is to get yourself stronger so that you can be alright with her or without her. *She knows what you want so either she is going to make those internal changes or she is not; not much you can do for her but a LOT you can do for you.
> *


Thank you, I needed to hear your words, I told me wife tonight, that I am done digging, I need to put all of my energies into helping rebuild our marriage. I know that most of this is up to her, and she says she wants to do this, she is trying. I just hope that she and I are up to the task.


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## turnera

Don't forget, however, that you still need to do periodic, random, spot checks.


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## bfree

turnera said:


> I agree that there's a point where it's counterproductive and holding you hostage.
> 
> And from everything I've seen, it DOES take at least two years. Of all the marriages that have NOT made it after infidelity, most ended within 1 to 2 years.


Including a couple of marriages here on TAM that I believed would recover.


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## bfree

turnera said:


> Don't forget, however, that you still need to do periodic, random, spot checks.


True a leopard doesn't change it's spots overnight and painting over them only lasts for so long.


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## lost in Iowa

As my wife and I work through her EA, I have been reading Not Just Friends, by Shirley P. Glass, its been very insightful in helping me work through our problems. Tonight, when she got home, we sat down and I asked her 10 questions from the book, it was very helpful hearing her answer the questions on the life of the affair, and how she was feeling about guilt and so forth. I showed her the text messages that she had sent him, and pointed out the cybersex session they had. As we talked about their only meeting, I was asking her what she felt and did she think, he would sleep with her, and she said "no". She wanted and hoped he would, but she did not think he would on their first meeting. I asked about the kissing and groping they had done in the car, and she was very straight forward in what they did and what she was thinking. We discussed the book and putting up walls around our marriage and how neither of us, can let others of the opposite sex get inside those walls. How we need to talk more about our feelings. When we were done, she turned to me and asked "if I thought she was a slvt for what she had done?" I told her, to give me her definition of a ****, and she said "someone that sleeps around all the time." I told her "no", by her definition she is not a ****, but she was that night she met him. You wanted to have sex with him and had thrown yourself at him with the photos you sent him, so yes, for that one night, you were indeed a ****. She thought about it, and said she had never saw herself in that light before, but she agreed, that yes, she was acting like a **** that night. Today is the one month D day of me finding about the affair and reading their emails. I know are marriage is stronger today than its been in years, and she assures me that her days of being a **** for someone else are over. I guess over the next few months and years we will find out. Thanks for listening.


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## bandit.45

Hmm. Well...their it is.


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## lost in Iowa

bandit.45 said:


> Hmm. Well...their it is.


May I ask, there is what? Does my wife asking if she is a slvt, mean that she is always going to continue acting this way, no. I would say it does not. The book I have been reading talks a lot about when a person is having an affair, they feel closer to the affair partner than their spouse. How everything is more exciting with the AP then their spouse. I would think what my wife was doing and feeling was basically normal for a person during an affair. That does not make it right, she understands that now, it's the understanding of the problem that will allow her to change and stop any future affairs like this. She has to be the one that makes that choice, not I. She says she wants to make the change and be with me, so only time will tell.


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## Thor

Your wife sounds unusually candid compared to most waywards. I think there is good reason for optimism about reconciliation. The one issue which worries me is you seem to be too concerned about her. Your focus should be on you, your needs, and what it will take to make the marriage good for you. R is generally not a DIY project, because the wayward needs some IC. You can't be her therapist. MC is usually required to fix the other problems in the relationship going forward.

I am seeing a bias in you to save the marriage, rather than get to the best outcome for you. The best outcome is either a great marriage with her, or a divorce so that you can have a great life without her. Reality says you can't have the old marriage back, nor can you have the old wife back. Having a bad marriage with her is not a best outcome! Your special needs child may be weighing too heavily in your mind, leading to a goal of saving the marriage. Not all marriages are worth saving! As is frequently said, and completely true, you have to be willing to lose your marriage before you can save it. The day will come when neither you nor your wife will be there to care for your child, so you can't be the hero forever. I have a very disabled sister, and my parents are in their mid 80's. We're having to deal with this issue right now, transitioning care for my sister.. You can't be a martyr for the rest of your life. You and your wife need to have your own lives, too, as much as is possible. Divorce may be part of you both having better lives. Your child should be a relatively minor factor in the divorce vs marriage decision. Additionally, your wife has to believe you are capable of divorce, even if she knows you really prefer to fix the marriage.

"Not Just Friends" is a good book. I also like "After the Affair" and "Women's Infidelity". The first is one you both read. The second is more for your own education about her mindset. It is an ebook and quite overpriced, but if you can find it cheap somewhere it is worth getting.


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## lost in Iowa

Thor said:


> Your wife sounds unusually candid compared to most waywards. I think there is good reason for optimism about reconciliation. The one issue which worries me is you seem to be too concerned about her. Your focus should be on you, your needs, and what it will take to make the marriage good for you. R is generally not a DIY project, because the wayward needs some IC. You can't be her therapist. MC is usually required to fix the other problems in the relationship going forward.
> 
> I am seeing a bias in you to save the marriage, rather than get to the best outcome for you. The best outcome is either a great marriage with her, or a divorce so that you can have a great life without her. Reality says you can't have the old marriage back, nor can you have the old wife back. Having a bad marriage with her is not a best outcome! Your special needs child may be weighing too heavily in your mind, leading to a goal of saving the marriage. Not all marriages are worth saving! As is frequently said, and completely true, you have to be willing to lose your marriage before you can save it. The day will come when neither you nor your wife will be there to care for your child, so you can't be the hero forever. I have a very disabled sister, and my parents are in their mid 80's. We're having to deal with this issue right now, transitioning care for my sister.. You can't be a martyr for the rest of your life. You and your wife need to have your own lives, too, as much as is possible. Divorce may be part of you both having better lives. Your child should be a relatively minor factor in the divorce vs marriage decision. Additionally, your wife has to believe you are capable of divorce, even if she knows you really prefer to fix the marriage.
> 
> "Not Just Friends" is a good book. I also like "After the Affair" and "Women's Infidelity". The first is one you both read. The second is more for your own education about her mindset. It is an ebook and quite overpriced, but if you can find it cheap somewhere it is worth getting.


I suppose I am bias about saving our marriage, 36 years and four children and a lot of history together, should mean its worth fighting for. Our special needs daughter will not be a burden on her siblings, we both have agreed to that, and money has been put away for that task. My wife has been very candid about what she was thinking and doing, I suppose a lot of that was I had the 477 emails between them and the photos as a smoking gun. Its hard for her to say she did not do something, when I could just go to the emails and show her. I understand the idea behind a back up plan if the marriage does not go well, but does that not also led to the idea, that if this does not work, then I can go my own way? I know I sound defensive about our situation and my wife sometimes, that is to be expected after 36 years. I just get the feeling from reading what other people suggest, is that a lot just say divorce her for her actions and start over. I keep telling myself the purpose of recovery is to make the marriage stronger and rebuild. I told my wife our old marriage is over, it died when you had the affairs, now we need to rebuild on its ashes and start over. Setting a strong foundation with better communication and strict boundaries of contact with people of the opposite sex. Last night, my wife asked me I she had just been talking another man on line, no photos, no sex, just looking for help, if I would have allowed it? I told her I would be hurt that she did not confine in my, but if I was allowed to read the emails, no chance of ever meeting him, maybe. We spent a lot of time last night, talking about the barrier walls that she broke down that allowed her EA to happen, and she said she can see that now.


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## weightlifter

This one may work out. We shall see.

You do realize, that you will have to be eyes open and mouth shut vigilant for the rest of your life? This does not mean all the direct spying stuff but being vigilant for those subtle clues that something has resurfaced.


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## ConanHub

Good conversation but she needs to realize that she has a habit, a character trait if you will, of being a slvt.

She has actually fvcked another man before and tried her best to get another to do it now.

It is good for her to face this fact if she wants to correct/change who she is.

What does she call a woman who has cheated on her husband of so many years twice?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lost in Iowa

weightlifter said:


> This one may work out. We shall see.
> 
> You do realize, that you will have to be eyes open and mouth shut vigilant for the rest of your life? This does not mean all the direct spying stuff but being vigilant for those subtle clues that something has resurfaced.


Yes, I understand that, but should we all not being doing that in our marriages? We were talking last night about her emailing, and I asked her "how she did it?" She brought out her phone, there was an app. already on the phone for email, she said she would open it, and it would go directly to her email, she typed in the letter I, first word of his gmail, it would appear, and then she would write and send. His gmail was the only one she had ever sent a email too using that app. She had her work email sent to another app on her phone. I looked at it, and it was right in the middle of the phone, I seen the app. plenty of times, just did not bother to ask why she had two emails on her phone. If I had, I am sure she would have said one is her work email and the other is our home email. I asked her how long that would take, and she maybe a minute or two. I asked her about her work email, and she said she never went through her work email, just opened up a her gmail account and logged in, again the whole process would only take a minute or two, read any emails from him or send him a new one. I asked if I was at home viewing your work email, could I tell you had emailed him, her reply, no, because it would have been from her other gmail account. That is just how easy it was. I guess if your spouse is going to cheat, there really is not a whole hell of a lot you can do about it. They will find a way, and then act like nothing is going on. I suppose the only way to really stop this, it for both of us to be happy in our marriage, and therefore see no reason to cheat. She knows if she does it again we are through, and I suppose if I would cheat on her the same thing would be true. I know I am not going to cheat, she says she will not do it again. Do I fully trust her yet, no, but time and her actions will tell.


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## lost in Iowa

ConanHub said:


> Good conversation but she needs to realize that she has a habit, a character trait if you will, of being a slvt.
> 
> She has actually fvcked another man before and tried her best to get another to do it now.
> 
> It is good for her to face this fact if she wants to correct/change who she is.
> 
> What does she call a woman who has cheated on her husband of so many years twice?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She really did not say, she just asked me if that made her a slvt. I told her what I wrote in an earlier post. She knows what she did was wrong. We talk about the mistakes we made the first time, and how those mistakes, her depression, and such, allowed her to do this again. I suppose it was easy to look past the first affair, as a mid life crisis and try and repair the damage. Now I know that was a mistake, and we never got to the real problem of her depression. We are doing that now, and hopefully she will or can change. She knows what will happen if she falls off the wagon again. Its her choice, she can have a nice life with me, or fool around again, and go on her own, there is no other alternatives.


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## ConanHub

Is she still talking to other men on the internet? Did I read that correctly?

She just didn't send pictures?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thor

lost in Iowa said:


> I suppose I am bias about saving our marriage, 36 years and four children and a lot of history together, should mean its worth fighting for.


I'm 54, married 33 years, several adult/college aged children. I agree there is a lot of reason to try to save a marriage. Lots of history which can never be replaced or recreated with a different person. Past history wouldn't be erased, and honestly the kids would be fine. But, a new marriage at this age would lack the depth which 3 decades of history bring. Still, one can be very happy in a second marriage. My parents divorced at about age 50, and my mother has had a very good second marriage. My dad is still single and I think happier than when he was married.

It is a different thing though to be over 50 rather than under 30! There are many financial and family complications. Had I known at 29 what I know now, it would have been easy to end the marriage. But not so easy today.



lost in Iowa said:


> Our special needs daughter will not be a burden on her siblings, we both have agreed to that, and money has been put away for that task.


Good! My parents had the same plan but due to some poor decisions and a couple of stock market melt downs the finances are sketchy at best. The legal and government benefit arrangements are all in good order for my sibling. It is a real worry for so many families in this situation, especially as the parents become elderly and unable to provide the care and oversight they used to.




lost in Iowa said:


> I just get the feeling from reading what other people suggest, is that a lot just say divorce her for her actions and start over. I keep telling myself the purpose of recovery is to make the marriage stronger and rebuild.


I look at it as the goal is to find the best outcome for you. Your wife has taken actions and made decisions which she alone is accountable for. While it is natural to care about her future, yours is more important. Her betrayal should greatly tip the scales towards your future happiness when you make decisions. Some of us are family and marriage biased. I prefer being in a close relationship, which biases me to preferring to remain married. But a bad marriage is less happy than being alone. Now how to weigh all those other factors such as finances into retirement, children, etc?


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## lost in Iowa

ConanHub said:


> Is she still talking to other men on the internet? Did I read that correctly?
> 
> She just didn't send pictures?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No, as far as I can tell she has stopped all emails and phone calls to the OM. His wife confirmed this. She says she has not emailed him since I found out. She had also not sent any more photos to him.


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## ConanHub

lost in Iowa said:


> No, as far as I can tell she has stopped all emails and phone calls to the OM. His wife confirmed this. She says she has not emailed him since I found out. She had also not sent any more photos to him.


I actually was referring to other men, not her affair partner.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lost in Iowa

Thor said:


> I'm 54, married 33 years, several adult/college aged children. I agree there is a lot of reason to try to save a marriage. Lots of history which can never be replaced or recreated with a different person. Past history wouldn't be erased, and honestly the kids would be fine. But, a new marriage at this age would lack the depth which 3 decades of history bring. Still, one can be very happy in a second marriage. My parents divorced at about age 50, and my mother has had a very good second marriage. My dad is still single and I think happier than when he was married.
> 
> It is a different thing though to be over 50 rather than under 30! There are many financial and family complications. Had I known at 29 what I know now, it would have been easy to end the marriage. But not so easy today.
> 
> 
> 
> Good! My parents had the same plan but due to some poor decisions and a couple of stock market melt downs the finances are sketchy at best. The legal and government benefit arrangements are all in good order for my sibling. It is a real worry for so many families in this situation, especially as the parents become elderly and unable to provide the care and oversight they used to.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I look at it as the goal is to find the best outcome for you. Your wife has taken actions and made decisions which she alone is accountable for. While it is natural to care about her future, yours is more important. Her betrayal should greatly tip the scales towards your future happiness when you make decisions. Some of us are family and marriage biased. I prefer being in a close relationship, which biases me to preferring to remain married. But a bad marriage is less happy than being alone. Now how to weigh all those other factors such as finances into retirement, children, etc?


I would say that we have a good marriage, I am sure some here would disagree. We were married for 30 years before she had her first affair, I really do think it was depression and mid life crisis. We just did not deal with that affair well enough, we tried counseling, which was a waste of time. We did not get to the root of why she was doing what she was doing. A year later she started the EA, she choose him because he was so far away, the odds of them ever meeting were not good, so she felt safe. They did meet, and it does not help that she did not turn to me, but she said last night, " you were going through enough problems with the unemployment and I just did not want to burden you more with my problems." I told her that she should of tried, she said she did at first but then it was just easier to talk to the OM on the internet, the face our problems. What she did was wrong, she understands that now, but the fog of the affair had set in. I really do think she was just looking for someone safe to talk too, and nothing more at first, but over time, the talking developed into an affair. I asked her why she choose to talk to a man, rather than a woman on line, and she did not know why. From the book I have been reading it said the 60% of all marriages go through an affair. The rate of recovery for an affair really is based on how much the couple want to be together. Affairs that are EA over the internet are easier to get past because you are not seeing the person everyday in your life, or accidently run into to them. You just need to stop the urge from emailing them. Another stat from the book, people that leave their marriage for the affair partner only have a 20% chance of having a successful marriage with that person, unless the AP is a long lost love, then the rate of a successful marriage is 80%.


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## lost in Iowa

ConanHub said:


> I actually was referring to other men, not her affair partner.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No she is also not talking to any other men either. I asked her about the singles site she was on four years ago, she said she was contacted by 6 or 8 men. I figure the real number was around 20. When they would email her on the site, she would look at their profile and then not email them back and block them from emailing her again. There is actually three old emails on her facebook account in the other section. They all say they would like to talk to her, all three of the emails on her facebook other section are 3 to 4 years old. When she found the person that met what she was looking for, a man, right age, and a large distance from her, and said he was in the same boat, could not talk to his wife. They both got off the singles site, and only talked to one another. At least she did, I suppose the OM did the same.


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## ConanHub

lost in Iowa said:


> No she is also not talking to any other men either. I asked her about the singles site she was on four years ago, she said she was contacted by 6 or 8 men. I figure the real number was around 20. When they would email her on the site, she would look at their profile and then not email them back and block them from emailing her again. There is actually three old emails on her facebook account in the other section. They all say they would like to talk to her, all three of the emails on her facebook other section are 3 to 4 years old. When she found the person that met what she was looking for, a man, right age, and a large distance from her, and said he was in the same boat, could not talk to his wife. They both got off the singles site, and only talked to one another. At least she did, I suppose the OM did the same.


OK. There is both good and bad in this information.

The good: She has stopped any conversations with any men online.

The bad: After she cheated five years ago, she never stopped.

That whole time has been false reconciliation as she was actively cheating on you, AFTER ALREADY BEING CAUGHT, by pursuing other men the whole time.

That does not bode well or speak well of your WWs chances at reforming.

There is a mountain of respect for you that is lacking in her. How is she going to develop, not only humble shame for herself, but the enormous amount of respect for you that she lacks?

Without it, your marriage really has no chance.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lost in Iowa

ConanHub said:


> OK. There is both good and bad in this information.
> 
> The good: She has stopped any conversations with any men online.
> 
> The bad: After she cheated five years ago, she never stopped.
> 
> That whole time has been false reconciliation as she was actively cheating on you, AFTER ALREADY BEING CAUGHT, by pursuing other men the whole time.
> 
> That does not bode well or speak well of your WWs chances at reforming.
> 
> There is a mountain of respect for you that is lacking in her. How is she going to develop, not only humble shame for herself, but the enormous amount of respect for you that she lacks?
> 
> Without it, your marriage really has no chance.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I see what you are saying, yes, she has stopped talking to other men. I guess I go back to five years ago, we did not solve the problems that led her to the first affair after it happened. After it was stopped, within a year, she started the EA. I really do think it was for the stated reason of just someone to talk too at first, and led on from there. The disrespect part I really do not agree with, when I had my EA 25 years ago, I did not do it to disrespect my wife. I did it because I choose to do it, I made that decision, she was providing me something I did not think my wife could. It was wrong, I see that know, and I think that was what my wife was looking for. Someone she could talk to that would be safe for her, and then the fog of talking to him set in, and she withdrew more and more into the fantasy of talking to him. According to her, it was easy, and I will say, when I started talking to his wife through email, I was beginning to see the same thing. His wife and I were both in the same situation, wanting to find out what our spouses had said to one another, so she was easy to talk too. When I realized I was doing the exact same thing as my wife, I stopped it and told her why. It had nothing to with respect, as much as need. Our problem going forward is she much understand she needs to come to me to fulfill her needs, not an anatomies person on line.


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## ConanHub

Your take on her lack of respect is incorrect.

You are missing an incredibly vital part of restoring your marriage.

When she started fvcking another man five years ago she was being incredibly disrespectful of you.

She never stopped disrespecting you after she was caught and pursued more men.

If you can classify having another man in her and actively trying to get another man in her for five years as not disrespecting you, you are too far behind the eight ball to help.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## alte Dame

I very much understand the dynamics of a long marriage and understand how hard it can be to think about starting over.

I have to say, with all due respect and care, that I think your WW is simply too comfortable to make your reconciliation a very healthy one.

She is a cake-eater and you have never denied her the cake from your plate. She has suffered essentially no consequences. She is comfortable in the security of a marriage with a husband who puts her first and spends his time puzzling out her psyche and motivations. She is comfortable seeking out other people to make her feel extra desirable and special. They feed her cake, too, and she loves it.

I think that she regrets what she has done, but hasn't broken through her own concern for her comfort to actually feel caring and empathy for you. This bespeaks a selfishness that is not good for reconciliation.

Truly, has she taken care of YOU? Has she cared for YOUR heart?

She needs some real consequences, in my opinion, in order to shake her out of her comfortable self-absorption.

You won't do that, I assume, but you deserve to have a wife who has your back and protects your heart.


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## Hicks

lost in Iowa said:


> I would say that we have a good marriage, I am sure some here would disagree. We were married for 30 years before she had her first affair, I really do think it was depression and mid life crisis. We just did not deal with that affair well enough, we tried counseling, which was a waste of time. We did not get to the root of why she was doing what she was doing. A year later she started the EA, she choose him because he was so far away, the odds of them ever meeting were not good, so she felt safe. They did meet, and it does not help that she did not turn to me, but she said last night, " you were going through enough problems with the unemployment and I just did not want to burden you more with my problems." I told her that she should of tried, she said she did at first but then it was just easier to talk to the OM on the internet, the face our problems. What she did was wrong, she understands that now, but the fog of the affair had set in. I really do think she was just looking for someone safe to talk too, and nothing more at first, but over time, the talking developed into an affair. I asked her why she choose to talk to a man, rather than a woman on line, and she did not know why. From the book I have been reading it said the 60% of all marriages go through an affair. The rate of recovery for an affair really is based on how much the couple want to be together. Affairs that are EA over the internet are easier to get past because you are not seeing the person everyday in your life, or accidently run into to them. You just need to stop the urge from emailing them. Another stat from the book, people that leave their marriage for the affair partner only have a 20% chance of having a successful marriage with that person, unless the AP is a long lost love, then the rate of a successful marriage is 80%.


I think your're way off in most of your assessments here.

Your wife was excited and titillated by her affairs. She did not like her marriage and life with you so this is where she turned. It's not about depression and mid life crisis. It's not about your unemployment making you inaccessible. No one loves their life. Her method of fixing her dissatisfaction in her life is to get herself turned on by other men. The reason I am pointing this out to you is that she will always be disatisfed with her life in some way, and if you minimize things to the degree you are doing, she will repeat. I'd be pointing out to her that SHE (you keep using we) needs better coping mechanisms and you want to know how she plans to turn toward the marriage for her support and fulfillment.


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## carmen ohio

lost in Iowa said:


> I see what you are saying, yes, she has stopped talking to other men. *I guess I go back to five years ago, we did not solve the problems that led her to the first affair after it happened.* After it was stopped, within a year, she started the EA. I really do think it was for the stated reason of just someone to talk too at first, and led on from there. The disrespect part I really do not agree with, when I had my EA 25 years ago, I did not do it to disrespect my wife. I did it because I choose to do it, I made that decision, she was providing me something I did not think my wife could. It was wrong, I see that know, and I think that was what my wife was looking for. Someone she could talk to that would be safe for her, and then the fog of talking to him set in, and she withdrew more and more into the fantasy of talking to him. According to her, it was easy, and I will say, when I started talking to his wife through email, I was beginning to see the same thing. His wife and I were both in the same situation, wanting to find out what our spouses had said to one another, so she was easy to talk too. When I realized I was doing the exact same thing as my wife, I stopped it and told her why. It had nothing to with respect, as much as need. Our problem going forward is she much understand she needs to come to me to fulfill her needs, not an anatomies person on line.


So, liI, what has happened differently this time that makes you believe you have solved the problem that led her to have a PA (followed by an EA)?

I believe you ignore alte Dame's advice (post #396) at your risk.


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## Vulcan2013

I think you should ask her to come up with a plan to make herself "affairproof." I've had an EA at work. I avoid one on one contact with women outside the workplace. I don't text other women. The one woman at my workplace I consider a friend (in a professional sense), my wife knows and likes. My wife has all my passwords. She can access anything, anytime. When I travel I check in.

Something like that, and some of those you need to be able to verify. 

She also needs to look at why she looks for validation in other men. I found a pretty woman's infatuation intoxicating, and I avoid getting close to that again.


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## Thor

alte Dame said:


> She is a cake-eater and you have never denied her the cake from your plate. She has suffered essentially no consequences. She is comfortable in the security of a marriage *with a husband who puts her first and spends his time puzzling out her psyche and motivations*. She is comfortable seeking out other people to make her feel extra desirable and special. They feed her cake, too, and she loves it.


:iagree:

There is a mix of good and bad in the situation, so there is some reason for optimism. But I think you are absolutely correct in your statement above.

I've done the same thing, trying to figure out why my wife did or said things. The correct action should have been to set boundaries and enforce consequences.


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## Thor

lost in Iowa said:


> I think that was what my wife was looking for. Someone she could talk to that would be safe for her, and then the fog of talking to him set in, and she withdrew more and more into the fantasy of talking to him.


You're being too soft on her with this.

When I found out my wife had been sexually abused as a child, it certainly explained a lot of things. But I was searching for more answers, which led me to a forum for spouses of child sex abuse victims. Just as here, I had conversations with a variety of people I never met in real life. One woman was in a very similar situation to me, with her husband doing a lot of the same things my wife was doing. We had a few PMs back and forth through the website.

Then she suggested we take it to private email. That's when I said no thanks and ended all contact with her. This was crossing a line into a personal relationship, fraught with danger to my marriage.

Your wife should have had similar boundaries. But instead she went the opposite direction, seeking out private secret relationships with other men. To me this is a much bigger deal than you are seeing. You seem to see it as basically accidental. She made a minor understandable error in judgement but then became a victim of circumstances which she was unable to see or remove herself from? I can't buy into that description of your wife's behavior. It was too intentional too many times for too long. It was patently disloyal all along, from beginning to end.


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## lost in Iowa

Vulcan2013 said:


> I think you should ask her to come up with a plan to make herself "affairproof." I've had an EA at work. I avoid one on one contact with women outside the workplace. I don't text other women. The one woman at my workplace I consider a friend (in a professional sense), my wife knows and likes. My wife has all my passwords. She can access anything, anytime. When I travel I check in.
> 
> Something like that, and some of those you need to be able to verify.
> 
> She also needs to look at why she looks for validation in other men. I found a pretty woman's infatuation intoxicating, and I avoid getting close to that again.


I have all my wives passwords, the OM was not a man she works with, or even a person that lives near us. This is a man she found over thousand miles away. I check her email at home, her work email, I look at her ipad. What more can I do? Tell her she can not see him to talk to him at work or here in town, drive the car 50 miles and meet him. All those things are impossible, because he lives half way across the country. They emailed and met one time, both were wrong, she says that. I again ask, what more precaution can I take. We are both in counseling, we are working on our problems. I know what she did was a mistake, so does she. I guess I become frustrated when people say do this or do that, when they do not know the whole story. My wife disrespected me for talking to another man on line, I could care less about the disrespect. I do not look at it that way, we are not teenagers here, we around in our 50's. Disrespecting me would have her sleeping all around town, telling everyone that she is just staying here until she can find something better, none of that has happened.


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## lost in Iowa

Thor said:


> You're being too soft on her with this.
> 
> When I found out my wife had been sexually abused as a child, it certainly explained a lot of things. But I was searching for more answers, which led me to a forum for spouses of child sex abuse victims. Just as here, I had conversations with a variety of people I never met in real life. One woman was in a very similar situation to me, with her husband doing a lot of the same things my wife was doing. We had a few PMs back and forth through the website.
> 
> Then she suggested we take it to private email.  That's when I said no thanks and ended all contact with her. This was crossing a line into a personal relationship, fraught with danger to my marriage.
> 
> Your wife should have had similar boundaries. But instead she went the opposite direction, seeking out private secret relationships with other men. To me this is a much bigger deal than you are seeing. You seem to see it as basically accidental. She made a minor understandable error in judgement but then became a victim of circumstances which she was unable to see or remove herself from? I can't buy into that description of your wife's behavior. It was too intentional too many times for too long. It was patently disloyal all along, from beginning to end.


Let me ask you something, you said you set the boundary, which is the correct thing to do, we talked about setting boundaries last night. But what if you didn't, say you emailed each other for a while, what harm would be done? Is it right, no, but its just you and her, so what is the harm in that? Now I know that is wrong what I wrote, but people in affairs do not see the boundary, or if they do they do not care. I asked my wife tonight, what is the root problem to our problems. I knew she had been having a bad day at work, her boss is our with hip surgery and she feels snow under. She told me, I have all this work and its only me there, and it all has to be done. I told her she needs to prioritize the work, this is the most important, and then this one and so forth. I could see her depression setting in. I asked her what she is thinking, and she said she was thinking about how I am going to be working and coaching again in a few weeks, and how lonely she is when I am not here. I asked her how that makes her feel, and she stated "overwhelmed". That is her depression talking, I tried to reassure her, I asked what she would like to do, and she said she would like to email the OM, he would know how she is feeling and have the right thing to say. I asked her "how would he know that?" You have met one time, and what would he say, her response was to say I was a stupid jock and I should be spending more time with my wife. So then I asked her, " is home every night? And she replied no, he travels for his job. So then I told her, so its ok for him to travel for his job and be home only I the weekends, but its not ok for me to coach and come home by eight or nine at the latest. One is reality one is fantasy, the om does not know my wife and if his life was so great, then way was he on the site looking for a someone to talk too? We have set limits, if she crosses them, we are through. That is where I am at now, should I leave and divorce her maybe, but can anyone on this board guarantee me a better life, and a woman that will love and cherish me for the rest of my life. No you can not, its like playing cards and I have a couple of queens right now, a good start, but not necessarily a winning hand. Maybe I should throw it in, and give up, or maybe I should try to work with the hand I have been dealt and see what the next card is or two. And then make my decision, I for now, am choosing the latter.


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## lost in Iowa

alte Dame said:


> I very much understand the dynamics of a long marriage and understand how hard it can be to think about starting over.
> 
> I have to say, with all due respect and care, that I think your WW is simply too comfortable to make your reconciliation a very healthy one.
> 
> She is a cake-eater and you have never denied her the cake from your plate. She has suffered essentially no consequences. She is comfortable in the security of a marriage with a husband who puts her first and spends his time puzzling out her psyche and motivations. She is comfortable seeking out other people to make her feel extra desirable and special. They feed her cake, too, and she loves it.
> 
> I think that she regrets what she has done, but hasn't broken through her own concern for her comfort to actually feel caring and empathy for you. This bespeaks a selfishness that is not good for reconciliation.
> 
> Truly, has she taken care of YOU? Has she cared for YOUR heart?
> 
> She needs some real consequences, in my opinion, in order to shake her out of her comfortable self-absorption.
> 
> You won't do that, I assume, but you deserve to have a wife who has your back and protects your heart.


So what consequences would you have me do? A lot of people on this board seem to think, file for divorce and then have her come dragging back to me. How is that good for me, I mean, what does that provide me? If she is not remorseful now, will she be if I file, will that cause her to say to herself, " he means it, and I will now have to shape up or else." No, it will not, if she cheats again in any way we are through, enough about it. Yes, I am pissed off, not so much at the board, but I had a horrible day, and then come home to my wife, and she is depressed over her work, which led to her talking about me going back to work. Which causes her to be even more depressed thinking about it. How do I fight her depression, that is the cause for all of this? She is in therapy for it, but I told her she must change the way she looks at things, she can either take the challenge on and fight it, or go back to the why me, and let it destroy her and our marriage. I can try to help, but there is only so much I can do, she must find it within herself to fight the depression or let it destroy her and us.


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## Vulcan2013

What I did was look at where I was vulnerable to temptation. Your wife's triggers are different than mine. Note, most of what I've put in place is my own idea, not anything my wife wants. I do. Not. Want. To EVER have a divided heart again. 

At the time of my EA, I traveled every week, and the attention of a younger, pretty woman was "irresistible" to me. Now, I'm in a higher status job, I work with a lot of women, both age-appropriate divorced and married, as well as a lot of new college grads. I've lost about 25 lbs of body fat since the time of the EA, and added about 10 lbs of muscle. So I would guess I'm more attractive now. 

Attractive on the surface, anyway. The OW didn't know I was a crappy husband, neglectful father, excessive drinker, etc. What she saw at work was my image. And she admired the hell out of (fake) me. How could my W compete? She knew who I was. And chose to love me anyway. I am ashamed I didn't appreciate that and preferred the fantasy. 

My point is that I now make sure I don't get too close to another woman. I don't flirt, and I avoid one on one contact outside work. When I seek counsel from or mentor a female, I make sure I have similar relationships with men in similar positions. The female friend in the workplace I mentioned? Her boss asked me to be her mentor. I've hired her twice, and talked her into considering coming to work at my present company. She's awesome, and I'd hire her again. I have lunch with her about 3-4 times a year. Conversations are kept to company politics, strategy and mutual goals. I have several men I have the same relationship with. And my wife knows her, and I've met her H. No flirtation, no hidden motives. But even so, I'm careful about my own motives. 

If she wants to save the M, your W will look at what her triggers are, and put a plan in place to avoid them. "We'll never be in a bad place again" isn't a plan, it's a delusion. Looking at herself, and realizing what she needs to do when she or the M is in a bad place, making a plan for how to respond (e.g., reach out to you, counseling, etc.). She may never go on a dating site again, but if she's in a bad place, some "nice, understanding man" is likely to appear. What's her plan?

I say these things because it's easy to say I've learned my lesson. Harder to realize that I knew I was wrong when I had the EA. I have weaknesses that I should not, and WILL not expose again to anyone but my wife. 

Sometimes, these measures are called"boundaries". The best boundaries are those we impose on ourselves. If you check out the marriagebuilders site, there's some great material on affair proofing your marriage. Avoid the forum - it seems really cultish and toxic, but the other material is first rate. 

And, seriously, you might look at yourself, your vulnerabilities, and what you need to do to avoid an A.


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## lost in Iowa

Hicks said:


> I think your're way off in most of your assessments here.
> 
> Your wife was excited and titillated by her affairs. She did not like her marriage and life with you so this is where she turned. It's not about depression and mid life crisis. It's not about your unemployment making you inaccessible. No one loves their life. Her method of fixing her dissatisfaction in her life is to get herself turned on by other men. The reason I am pointing this out to you is that she will always be disatisfed with her life in some way, and if you minimize things to the degree you are doing, she will repeat. I'd be pointing out to her that SHE (you keep using we) needs better coping mechanisms and you want to know how she plans to turn toward the marriage for her support and fulfillment.


I agree she needs to learn coping mechanism that allow her to not fall into the traps she has before. Yes, she was excited about the affairs, most people are, its new, its something you should not be doing. I suppose its like shop lifting but a lot worse, you are just taking junk, in most cases, but you do it for the thrill. Has anyone here, ever had an affair, that they did not think the OP was that special person that just got them? Their soul mate, that knows and understands them better than their spouse every could? No, they do not, its a fantasy, when they see that and understand that, then they realize that OP is nothing special, its just new. My wife is not any different than millions of others including myself. I learned from my mistake twenty five years ago, she did not learn that lesson five years ago, and led to her EA. If she does not learn from this, we are done.


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## lost in Iowa

Vulcan2013 said:


> What I did was look at where I was vulnerable to temptation. Your wife's triggers are different than mine. Note, most of what I've put in place is my own idea, not anything my wife wants. I do. Not. Want. To EVER have a divided heart again.
> 
> At the time of my EA, I traveled every week, and the attention of a younger, pretty woman was "irresistible" to me. Now, I'm in a higher status job, I work with a lot of women, both age-appropriate divorced and married, as well as a lot of new college grads. I've lost about 25 lbs of body fat since the time of the EA, and added about 10 lbs of muscle. So I would guess I'm more attractive now.
> 
> Attractive on the surface, anyway. The OW didn't know I was a crappy husband, neglectful father, excessive drinker, etc. What she saw at work was my image. And she admired the hell out of (fake) me. How could my W compete? She knew who I was. And chose to love me anyway. I am ashamed I didn't appreciate that and preferred the fantasy.
> 
> My point is that I now make sure I don't get too close to another woman. I don't flirt, and I avoid one on one contact outside work. When I seek counsel from or mentor a female, I make sure I have similar relationships with men in similar positions. The female friend in the workplace I mentioned? Her boss asked me to be her mentor. I've hired her twice, and talked her into considering coming to work at my present company. She's awesome, and I'd hire her again. I have lunch with her about 3-4 times a year. Conversations are kept to company politics, strategy and mutual goals. I have several men I have the same relationship with. And my wife knows her, and I've met her H. No flirtation, no hidden motives. But even so, I'm careful about my own motives.
> 
> If she wants to save the M, your W will look at what her triggers are, and put a plan in place to avoid them. "We'll never be in a bad place again" isn't a plan, it's a delusion. Looking at herself, and realizing what she needs to do when she or the M is in a bad place, making a plan for how to respond (e.g., reach out to you, counseling, etc.). She may never go on a dating site again, but if she's in a bad place, some "nice, understanding man" is likely to appear. What's her plan?
> 
> I say these things because it's easy to say I've learned my lesson. Harder to realize that I knew I was wrong when I had the EA. I have weaknesses that I should not, and WILL not expose again to anyone but my wife.
> 
> Sometimes, these measures are called"boundaries". The best boundaries are those we impose on ourselves. If you check out the marriagebuilders site, there's some great material on affair proofing your marriage. Avoid the forum - it seems really cultish and toxic, but the other material is first rate.
> 
> And, seriously, you might look at yourself, your vulnerabilities, and what you need to do to avoid an A.


My therapist told me to check out marriage builders and I have, I agree with much of what you said. I was in the same boat after my EA twenty years ago, and I also redirected my life to my wife and family. I wish I could say my wife did the same after her PA, but she did not. Instead of coming to me, within a year she went looking for someone on the internet to talk too. When they found each other, they stopped looking and started the EA. That is what is hard about the recovery, you and I realized what we did was wrong, my wife said her PA was wrong, but compartmentalized it by saying a mid life crisis, and I also did. That was a huge mistake, which led to her EA. She has deleted her gmail account, as he, the only way they could take to one another would be by text or phone, she knows I check the all text and phone records. I suppose she could try to contact him on her work email or he could her, I look at them, but it would be easy to delete it, and do the same thing in the trash. Its not hopeless, but I guess if she is going to cheat, she will. There is only so much I can do, hopefully therapy and us talking will stop it, if not then I start over. I just have to believe she wants and values our marriage now and that will cause her to stop her behaviors.


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## Vulcan2013

The other posters talking about consequences have a point. But if your R is real, she'll impose them on herself, although you may suggest them. Helping you heal and meeting your needs would be key steps. AKA "heavy lifting". 

Even though you are responsible for 50% of the problems in the M, she needs to lay that aside and work on establishing trust.


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## lost in Iowa

Vulcan2013 said:


> The other posters talking about consequences have a point. But if your R is real, she'll impose them on herself, although you may suggest them. Helping you heal and meeting your needs would be key steps. AKA "heavy lifting".
> 
> Even though you are responsible for 50% of the problems in the M, she needs to lay that aside and work on establishing trust.


I agree but trust is not something that is easy for me to give right now. Yesterday I had a call at home, when I answered, no one was there. I immediately thought is was the OM calling my wife. He had never called the home phone before, but it must have been him. I told my wife about it, and she said we get those calls all the time, which we do, before all of this, I would not have given it a second thought. But now, I wonder, its crazy, but I do wonder. I know now a day later, it was nothing, but I told her last night, you will have to rebuild my trust by your actions. So when you go to the your fall conference in Des Moines, expect me to call you at all time and when I say email me a photo of the people at your table, you had better email it to me right now. That is how I can reestablish trust in her.


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## Satya

She didn't learn the lesson 5 years ago, because there were no consequences for her to learn from. 

You are more than her husband, you lead the direction of the relationship when she is wayward. You didn't grab that spinning ship wheel and so is it any surprise when you hit an iceberg? 

We are all human, but if we learn nothing of substance from our errors, we are most certainly going to repeat them. 

She needs to work on herself, lots. Asking you if she was a slvt says a lot about her need for self validation. Hint: those that are secure in themselves don't ask questions like that. It's obvious as to her conduct as a married woman. People ask the obvious when they want to hear either: truth (reality) or what they want to hear (fog). 

The fact you said yes poked holes in her perfect bubble. She knows you don't look upon her with the same eyes any longer. She has a glimpse of what she stands to lose. 

There is real hope that this could have a positive outcome, but everything usually has to start afresh and have both people behind its success 110%. There may be a point at which you can trust her again, but that will be for you to determine. The members here are just making sure you're seeing through certain lenses. 

Good luck and I hope for the best.


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## Vulcan2013

lost in Iowa said:


> My therapist told me to check out marriage builders and I have, I agree with much of what you said. I was in the same boat after my EA twenty years ago, and I also redirected my life to my wife and family. I wish I could say my wife did the same after her PA, but she did not. Instead of coming to me, within a year she went looking for someone on the internet to talk too. When they found each other, they stopped looking and started the EA. That is what is hard about the recovery, you and I realized what we did was wrong, my wife said her PA was wrong, but compartmented it by saying a mid life crisis, and I also did. That was a huge mistake, which led to her EA. She has deleted her gmail account, as he, the only way they could take to one another would be by text or phone, she knows I check the all text and phone records. I suppose she could try to contact him on her work email or he could her, I look at them, but it would be easy to delete it, and do the same thing in the trash. Its not hopeless, but I guess if she is going to cheat, she will. *There is only so much I can do, hopefully therapy and us talking will stop it, if not then I start over. I just have to believe she wants and values our marriage now and that will cause her to stop her behaviors.*


The bolded parts are naive. 

Just to be honest about myself, I knew what I did was wrong, but I was not remorseful for a *long* time. 

If she is really sorry, her actions will bear that out. Her wanting your M didn't stop her, except on a temporary basis. She has some defects of character and weaknesses that make her want to look elsewhere. I have some defects of character and weaknesses that make me want to look elsewhere. 

I feel bad for what I did, but in spite of that epiphany, I still have the same issues. I'm working on character, but in the meantime, I have boundaries in place to avoid going down the same road. 

Do you think your wife didn't know what she was doing was wrong? I knew, and I was too weak to resist. I rationalized the hell out of my behavior; I had friends and a (sick) MC validate me, but I still knew I was wrong. And your W did too. MLC? Check. Low self esteem? Check. Abusive childhood? Check. Issues in the M? Check. My wife and I both had these issues (and hers were worse) and she didn't cheat. I made excuses, and she chose not to be a sh!tty person. 

An alcoholic shouldn't hang out in bars, and I won't develop relationships with women who aren't close to my wife. And I won't have any relationships that aren't in the open.


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## lost in Iowa

Vulcan2013 said:


> The bolded parts are naive.
> 
> Just to be honest about myself, I knew what I did was wrong, but I was not remorseful for a *long* time.
> 
> If she is really sorry, her actions will bear that out. Her wanting your M didn't stop her, except on a temporary basis. She has some defects of character and weaknesses that make her want to look elsewhere. I have some defects of character and weaknesses that make me want to look elsewhere.
> 
> I feel bad for what I did, but in spite of that epiphany, I still have the same issues. Im working on character, but in the meantime, I have boundaries in place to avoid going down the same road.
> 
> Do you think your wife didn't know what she was doing was wrong? I knew, and I was too weak to resist. An alcoholic shouldn't hang out in bars, and I won't develop close relationships with women who aren't close to my wife.


I agree with what you are saying, but it will take time. I only found out about her EA a month ago, she has met with her counselor twice and will go again Monday, so do I. Its hard for both of us, we want to be over this, but that was the mistake the first time. I tell her now, we need to go slow, talk everything over and set boundaries with people of the opposite sex. If I read what you said or emailed someone would I approve, if not, you should not be saying or sending it? Do not get to close to men, and I will not with other woman, its that simple. We are a team, and we must act like a team. The best teams in the world, all have problems, but they talk about them and over come those through talking and working them out. They do not let things fester and get blown out of proportion. Time and talking will get us to where we both want to go, as long as we are both willing to make the honest effort to get there. My wife knew what she was doing was wrong, she has told me so, so like you she must set those boundaries and not put herself in those situations again.


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## lost in Iowa

Satya said:


> She didn't learn the lesson 5 years ago, because there were no consequences for her to learn from.
> 
> You are more than her husband, you lead the direction of the relationship when she is wayward. You didn't grab that spinning ship wheel and so is it any surprise when you hit an iceberg?
> 
> We are all human, but if we learn nothing of substance from our errors, we are most certainly going to repeat them.
> 
> She needs to work on herself, lots. Asking you if she was a slvt says a lot about her need for self validation. Hint: those that are secure in themselves don't ask questions like that. It's obvious as to her conduct as a married woman. People ask the obvious when they want to hear either: truth (reality) or what they want to hear (fog).
> 
> The fact you said yes poked holes in her perfect bubble. She knows you don't look upon her with the same eyes any longer. She has a glimpse of what she stands to lose.
> 
> There is real hope that this could have a positive outcome, but everything usually has to start afresh and have both people behind its success 110%. There may be a point at which you can trust her again, but that will be for you to determine. The members here are just making sure you're seeing through certain lenses.
> 
> Good luck and I hope for the best.


My wife has never been secure in herself only self doubt. I have told her for years, she would be better then her boss in that position, but her lack of believing in herself holds her back. I would guess it goes back to being the youngest child, a female, growing up with two older brothers in the 60's. Girls were taught to marry, have a family and mind your husband. Our society has changed a lot in the last 35 years, but those values she was taught, are still with her. Her lack of a strong will and believing in herself is what causes a lot of her self doubt, so when a strange man gave her a complement five years ago, it went to her head. No other man, besides me, had ever told her she was beautiful in her life. So she fell for his words and slept with him. She realized what she had done afterward, but it was too late then. I tried to comfort her, that was my mistake, and that led to her EA. Again looking for someone that she could talk to. A person that would not be a critic but a friend, and she fell into the fantasy, here is a person that gets me, and always has the right answer to all my questions, and is feeling like I do. Only problem it is not real life, I told her tonight, would he make you happy, would you like to leave and be with him. And she said no, the only time she met him, he was nothing like the person she talked to on line. Her words he was a dweeb, not what she expected at all. But on line he was perfect, and like tonight, she is still fighting that fantasy person that she made up in her mind. She knows its not the real him, she met him, but the fantasy is perfect, that is what she is fighting.


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## Thor

lost in Iowa said:


> Let me ask you something, you said you set the boundary, which is the correct thing to do, we talked about setting boundaries last night. But what if you didn't, say you emailed each other for a while, what harm would be done? Is it right, no, but its just you and her, so what is the harm in that? Now I know that is wrong what I wrote, but people in affairs do not see the boundary, or if they do they do not care.
> .
> .
> .
> I asked her how that makes her feel, and she stated "overwhelmed". That is her depression talking, I tried to reassure her, I asked what she would like to do, and she said she would like to email the OM, he would know how she is feeling and have the right thing to say.


Your wife still doesn't understand the concept of a boundary around the marriage. She thinks it is fine to get some emotional needs fulfilled by other men.

Her feeling overwhelmed is a big driver of the situation, but her inability to understand the concept of boundaries is what facilitates her affairs. Until she understands it is simply wrong to go outside the marriage to other men, there is no hope.

Having said that, a couple of things strike me in all of this. Firstly, your disabled child is a huge stressor for everyone. Without this stress your wife may not feel overwhelmed. I think something needs to be done to reduce the pressure on your wife. She seems to be feeling everybody is demanding too much of her. She probably feels she has no choice but to go to work. She may feel at work they are putting too many demands on her, with no choices or input herself. If these things can be re-framed so she isn't feeling cornered and pressured all the time, she might not feel the need to seek support elsewhere.

Also, she may be feeling that you are telling her what to do and how things are. In this whole R process you seem to be sort of lecturing to her. I understand you are trying to figure out what is going on with her, and then you are trying to guide her back to where you want her to be. But I think that is perhaps making her feel more pressure to conform to others. Instead, I think you should be setting boundaries and expectations, while leaving the method of getting there up to her.

My counselor had me use this approach with my wife about her CSA. I told my wife, once, that I would support her in any way she wanted me to with whatever she pursued in dealing with her trauma. That's it. Now it is up to my wife to decide if and how she wants to deal with it. Along with that goes the expectation that I will have a fulfilling marriage where my needs are being met. However my wife gets to the point of being able to meet my needs is up to her, but it is necessary.

Same with R from affairs. However your wife gets to the point of being truly faithful is up to her. You set expectations for her behavior inside and outside of the marriage. You can require certain things such as IC, MC, and transparency.

What triggered this post for me was an impression from your posts that you are trying to cause your wife to gain insights about herself. IC and MC is where that should be happening.


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## Thor

lost in Iowa said:


> my wife said her PA was wrong, but compartmentalized it by saying a mid life crisis, and I also did.


Just a bit of a diversion, but it strikes me that cheaters are able to compartmentalize relationships well. Perhaps this is a key characteristic required for ongoing affairs.


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## turnera

lost in Iowa said:


> I agree she needs to learn coping mechanism that allow her to not fall into the traps she has before.
> 
> I learned from my mistake twenty five years ago, she did not learn that lesson five years ago, and led to her EA. If she does not learn from this, we are done.


So you have the temperament to become introspective, ask hard questions, admit your failings, seek growth, and improve.

She does not.

How is she supposed to turn into a person who DOES? That's asking her to change who she is. Usually the ONLY way people change that fundamentally is because they face a REALLY BAD THING - and then feel it's necessary to change to avoid that REALLY BAD THING again.

What really bad thing did she get out of this?

And btw, psychologically, it has to be coming from HER, these ideas and thoughts and motivations. You can be explaining this stuff to her - and you SHOULD be having these hard discussions - but you should also be making it clear you are OBSERVING her to ensure she IS taking hard, strong, concrete steps to change. NOT just 'not cheat again' but CHANGE who she is.

Has that been made clear? If not, she has no reason to change since YOU have now shown a pattern of rugsweeping (i.e. it's safe to cheat, he's not going anywhere). Just saying 'if you cheat again, I'm gone' isn't going to create any fundamental REALLY BAD THING in her. Because you've proven that's a lie.


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## alte Dame

You seem very frustrated with the drumbeat here for 'consequences.' You want to know what people mean by that.

This is what I think people mean:

Infidelity is like all human behavior in that it exhibits describable patterns. Your WW is following a certain subset of these patterns. These patterns probably won't change unless some things happen. These are what we are calling consequences, in my opinion.

Your WW is unhappy with her life and is trying to find a boyfriend to make herself feel better. You have had your own experiences with infidelity, so you are more sympathetic to her motivations than other BS's would be. You identify to some degree with her probable responses to 'why?' and 'how could you?'

She comes back to the marriage and acts contrite if you tell her that you are afraid that things won't work out. Then you make it clear that you really don't want that, so she feels secure again.

Your consequences to her so far have been minor enough to allow her to learn that she can manage you and still do what she needs to do, which is have a bf. More serious consequences would force her into a different pattern. Sometimes, but not always, they give the WS that a-ha moment that can lead to real remorse.

So, yes, what I mean by real consequences is her seeing that you are on a clear path to divorce as a direct consequence of her cheating.

I realize that my opinion in this is unpopular, not least with the OP. I only post this in response to LI2's question earlier. No need to worry that I will continue to post similar opinions (or at all).


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## turnera

To further explain that, I like to use the analogy of the kid who steals a candy bar from a store. Dad A finds out, yells at him and says never do it again. Dad B finds out, takes his son back to the store, makes him apologize, and makes him work at the store for an hour to pay back the money. 

Which kid do you think will steal a candy bar again? Kid B, the next time he has an opportunity to steal, is going to REMEMBER those consequences - having to apologize (humiliating) and having to work it off (personal distress). To AVOID that REALLY BAD THING, he will choose not to steal the next time.

Kid A? He just learns to lie and hide the truth when he steals (and probably grows up to be a cheating husband who just lies and hides and ignores when his wife whines at him just like he ignored his dad's rant, because he learned they are just words).


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## lost in Iowa

alte Dame said:


> You seem very frustrated with the drumbeat here for 'consequences.' You want to know what people mean by that.
> 
> This is what I think people mean:
> 
> Infidelity is like all human behavior in that it exhibits describable patterns. Your WW is following a certain subset of these patterns. These patterns probably won't change unless some things happen. These are what we are calling consequences, in my opinion.
> 
> Your WW is unhappy with her life and is trying to find a boyfriend to make herself feel better. You have had your own experiences with infidelity, so you are more sympathetic to her motivations than other BS's would be. You identify to some degree with her probable responses to 'why?' and 'how could you?'
> 
> She comes back to the marriage and acts contrite if you tell her that you are afraid that things won't work out. Then you make it clear that you really don't want that, so she feels secure again.
> 
> Your consequences to her so far have been minor enough to allow her to learn that she can manage you and still do what she needs to do, which is have a bf. More serious consequences would force her into a different pattern. Sometimes, but not always, they give the WS that a-ha moment that can lead to real remorse.
> 
> So, yes, what I mean by real consequences is her seeing that you are on a clear path to divorce as a direct consequence of her cheating.
> 
> I realize that my opinion in this is unpopular, not least with the OP. I only post this in response to LI2's question earlier. No need to worry that I will continue to post similar opinions (or at all).


So let me get this straight, you are telling me anything less than a clear path to divorce is the only thing that will show my wife the needed consequences to change her ways. You are informing me I should see a lawyer, file for divorce and then have my wife decide whether she wants to work this out or not. Anything less than filing will be seen as a sign of weakness on my part and therefore she will continue to have affairs until I buck up and file? I do not believe that at all, yes, she has problems and our marriage has problems like many others. If everything was great, I would not be posting on the infidelity site. I have already said I made a mistake in the way I handled my wife's first affair. Even today I think it was a search by her for affection, and is the grass greener. I handled that poorly, I see that now. But we did attempt counseling and even though it went poorly we tried. For some on this board, I am finding out, trying is not enough, all actions must be immediate and have lasting effects. But that is not real life, we make mistakes and we learn, I have learned from my EA and hers. Can I say that about my wife, no, I cannot yet, but that does not mean I will not be able to in six months or a year. Only she can change herself, I can help, but only she through therapy can cause that change to occur. We have had a lot of roadblocks thrown in our path during our marriage. We married young, wife pregnant, then having twins, and not know that until they were born. Have one of them suffering from Cerebral Palsy. Trying to go to college, me being laid off from a job after twenty years. All of those things were challenges that we fought and overcame, this is just another one of life's challenges. I can file and give up or try to work through this, I choose at this time to work through it. We are in counseling, I have all her email passwords, I am being vigilant to what she is up to. She does not do wife's night out or anything like that. But I also know that unless she changes, we are through. Someone here once said you have to be willing to give up your marriage sometimes to save it, that is the way I am starting to feel. I want to make this work for everyone involved, but there is only so much I can do, and I do know this after living with my wife for 36 years, if I would file for divorce, she will see that as a sign that I have given up, so she will stop trying to change. She will either change or we will divorce, there is no middle ground.


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## turnera

I think you're confusing filing for divorce with actually divorcing. You can tell your lawyer to take AS LONG AS YOU WANT for the divorce to become final. In other words, it becomes a litmus test for her. It becomes a FACT in her life that her husband WILL push through to leave her UNLESS he sees a real change.

Words are easy. Cheap. Worthless.

ACTION is what makes people change.

I don't think anyone, or few, here are telling you to LEAVE YOUR WIFE. We are telling you to SHOW her - through starting a legal proceeding - that you are one major step closer to no longer putting up with her selfishness. That you know you deserve better than that, that you value yourself enough to leave her IF she doesn't wake up every day dedicated to deserving your third chance.

Just file the paper, ok? Let her have a copy of it, to keep wherever she wants. Put her on notice that you HAVE taken a major step toward protecting yourself from her selfishness and you are now sitting back and waiting to see what she does. That's what a real consequence looks like.

Merely SAYING you will leave has been rendered useless by YOUR former actions.

So now you need to SHOW her.


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## alte Dame

lost in Iowa said:


> So let me get this straight, you are telling me anything less than a clear path to divorce is the only thing that will show my wife the needed consequences to change her ways. .


This is essentially my opinion, yes.

I think, though, that this isn't a reflexive reaction on my part. It's informed by what you've written about your WW.

She has had sex with at least one man that you know of. She has presented herself as single and talked to numerous men on at least one dating site. She found a man to 'talk' to and proceeded to have a long, secret affair with him. This has gone on for a long time. And this is only what you know about.

The evidence indicates that she is trying very hard to be with another man. She doesn't leave you, so she is happy cake-eating. She has managed her cake-eating life very well, in her experience. After all, you only discovered her online lover recently.

So, for me, the question is what you want for yourself and your marriage. She doesn't seem to really worry about whether she hurts you when she does this. She wants to have her needs met and the way she does it is to find another man to do what she decides you're not successfully doing for her. It's about how she feels & not about you.

This is no surprise. This is cheating mentality. But since she isn't really swayed by what hurts you, she might be swayed by what hurts her. I think that the real specter of having her marriage end would be perceived by her as hurting her more than her cheating helps her.

You seem to think that considering consequences like this will signal to her that you have given up & then she will give up. I submit that the way you have typically reacted, including now, is what signals that you have given up, since she is able to continue to believe that you will just live with what she is doing. You say you can't, but you probably will & she knows that.

The line in the sand is what people mean when they say that you have to be willing to end it to save it. Some WS's simply will not do the hard work of change unless they are faced with the ultimate consequences.

When people here say that you should make it clear you will divorce, they don't mean to hit the lawyer's office and expedite the split. What they mean is that your WS must be truly faced with the final result of what she has done in order to bring it home to her that she must start working hard to save this. This isn't for you to save. This is for her to save.


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## lost in Iowa

turnera said:


> I think you're confusing filing for divorce with actually divorcing. You can tell your lawyer to take AS LONG AS YOU WANT for the divorce to become final. In other words, it becomes a litmus test for her. It becomes a FACT in her life that her husband WILL push through to leave her UNLESS he sees a real change.
> 
> Words are easy. Cheap. Worthless.
> 
> ACTION is what makes people change.
> 
> I don't think anyone, or few, here are telling you to LEAVE YOUR WIFE. We are telling you to SHOW her - through starting a legal proceeding - that you are one major step closer to no longer putting up with her selfishness. That you know you deserve better than that, that you value yourself enough to leave her IF she doesn't wake up every day dedicated to deserving your third chance.
> 
> Just file the paper, ok? Let her have a copy of it, to keep wherever she wants. Put her on notice that you HAVE taken a major step toward protecting yourself from her selfishness and you are now sitting back and waiting to see what she does. That's what a real consequence looks like.
> 
> Merely SAYING you will leave has been rendered useless by YOUR former actions.
> 
> So now you need to SHOW her.


Any idea of the costs I should expect in just the filing?


----------



## lost in Iowa

alte Dame said:


> This is essentially my opinion, yes.
> 
> I think, though, that this isn't a reflexive reaction on my part. It's informed by what you've written about your WW.
> 
> She has had sex with at least one man that you know of. She has presented herself as single and talked to numerous men on at least one dating site. She found a man to 'talk' to and proceeded to have a long, secret affair with him. This has gone on for a long time. And this is only what you know about.
> 
> The evidence indicates that she is trying very hard to be with another man. She doesn't leave you, so she is happy cake-eating. She has managed her cake-eating life very well, in her experience. After all, you only discovered her online lover recently.
> 
> So, for me, the question is what you want for yourself and your marriage. She doesn't seem to really worry about whether she hurts you when she does this. She wants to have her needs met and the way she does it is to find another man to do what she decides you're not successfully doing for her. It's about how she feels & not about you.
> 
> This is no surprise. This is cheating mentality. But since she isn't really swayed by what hurts you, she might be swayed by what hurts her. I think that the real specter of having her marriage end would be perceived by her as hurting her more than her cheating helps her.
> 
> You seem to think that considering consequences like this will signal to her that you have given up & then she will give up. I submit that the way you have typically reacted, including now, is what signals that you have given up, since she is able to continue to believe that you will just live with what she is doing. You say you can't, but you probably will & she knows that.
> 
> The line in the sand is what people mean when they say that you have to be willing to end it to save it. Some WS's simply will not do the hard work of change unless they are faced with the ultimate consequences.
> 
> When people here say that you should make it clear you will divorce, they don't mean to hit the lawyer's office and expedite the split. What they mean is that your WS must be truly faced with the final result of what she has done in order to bring it home to her that she must start working hard to save this. This isn't for you to save. This is for her to save.


She did sleep with one man, five years ago. On the dating site, she did not present herself as single, looking for a man. But a married woman looking for someone to talk too. She said she was contacted by 6 or 8 men, I would say the real number was around 20, but that is just a guess on my part. Of the men that contacted her, she has told me she talked to two of them. One in Chicago 2 or 3 times, and the OM which she had the EA with. He was in the same boat, married and just wanting someone to talk too. I am not excusing her actions, just saying what she told me.

As to the cake eating part, so you are telling me that since she was having an EA, her real desire was to leave me for him? You have to remember this was an internet affair, sordid yes, but it not with was someone she is working with or would see on a regular basis or even meet. They were 1150 miles away from one another. She said it was the distance between them that made her feel safe talking to him. Yes, in the end, they did meet one time. Reading the emails that I have, starting in April/May of 2014, they did read like a pin pal. Where are you at, how are you feeling ect. only around October of 2014 did it cross the line and became sexual. Everything up until then was not. That is the point where a small mistake, became a huge mistake. I agree with what she was doing was wrong, but when she asked be the other night if she had not crossed the sexual line, would I have been ok with her emailing another man, just talking. I will say I do not know, we all have friends of the opposite sex, and that is ok, if she had told me and allowed me to read them, maybe this would not have gone down the path that it did. But it did turn sexual and it changed everything.


----------



## turnera

lost in Iowa said:


> Any idea of the costs I should expect in just the filing?


AFAIK, you can get the paperwork online and file for free. Maybe a filing fee. What state are you in? We'll find out for you.


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## lost in Iowa

turnera said:


> AFAIK, you can get the paperwork online and file for free. Maybe a filing fee. What state are you in? We'll find out for you.


I am in Iowa, hence the name, Lost in Iowa.


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## lost in Iowa

There seems to be a little confusion about what my wife did and how many times it occurred. I will try to clear that up, not make excuses or rug sweep, but what happened.

We have been married 36 years, 4 kids, one special needs child. All our child except our special needs daughter are out of the house. in 25 years ago I had an EA, with another coach where I was working, it was an off and on EA, and last 4 years. We went to counseling and I recommitted to our marriage. In 2010 my wife turned 50 in April a salesman walked into her office, and within a month she slept with him. They met 7 or 8 times in person and spoke on the phone 15 times. They did spend one night talking at a conference she was at and his company was presenting. She and her female boss shared a hotel room, the other man lives in that city, so he did not have a room. She has said she did not sleep with him that night. Two weeks later she slept with him at our home, I was an hour late from catching them. My wife admitted at the door she had slept with him, and said it was a mistake. She broke it off with him the next week. We entered counseling, just like we did after my EA. Two months later, he was trying to draw her back into the affair by stopping by her office, I caught them, called his boss telling him what happened and the affair ended. I was laid off work the next year, and in 2011 my wife started talking with another man in the internet. She has told me she needed someone to talk too, the emails I read, she is telling the truth. In October of 2014 friendship/pin pal relationship changed and became more sexual. It was my wife leading this change, the emails clearly point out the OM did not want this, but with in month was drawn in. They met in May of 2015 one time, again the emails show they ate, kissed and made out, but did not have sex of any kind. I found the emails on July 7th. We have been in counseling ever since, she has not had any contact with the OM, confirmed by his wife. I have access to all her email accounts and phone and text records. She did join a dating site, posting as a married woman looking for friendship to talk, that is how she met the OM. She did email another younger guy in Chicago two or three times. All other inquires from men, she did not reply. Hope this clears some things up. Thanks for listening.


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## alte Dame

I don't doubt that she needed someone to talk to. But, it is clear that that someone had to be another man. She has been seeking out other men. So, she was on a dating site and didn't lie about being married. What was a married woman doing on a dating site? She wasn't trying to find a gf to talk to.

I see no qualitative difference between her trolling for men as a married woman or a single woman. The end result is what you are left with.

I have no desire to keep nitpicking this with you. You're on an infidelity forum to get responses from other members & I have given you mine. Perhaps you will return in a few years and report that people like me were wrong. If so, that's great, since that would mean that you have the marriage that you want. I wish you luck.


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## drifting on

Lost in Iowa

I keep noticing a word that sends me into a rage in your posts. I'm thinking that same word is possibly why your wife is not clear with boundaries. Also the fact you rug swept the physical affair and this word is glaring at me. I'm really left wondering about your wife, and I can't believe she is either ignorant or naive. 

What would her reaction been when she came home and found out you had sex with the female UPS driver that comes through your neighborhood? Would she say you made a mistake? What if you met a guy from a dating site and only wanted a pen pal? Would that be a mistake? I have never googled this but us there a pen pal website as opposed to a dating website? 

Do you see what I see from this? If I joined a dating site and then told my wife I wanted a pen pal, should she be a little skeptical here? If I had a physical affair should my wife be even more concerned? Now I look at my wife and say "boy, what a mistake I made, huh"? Lost in Iowa it's a choice, not a mistake. She chose to have that physical affair, she chose to join a dating site, and she chose to meet this second OM! That is the cold hard facts that you are well aware of, but exactly what did she learn from her first physical affair that she narrowly avoided a second time? 

I agree you need to file for divorce, and tell her that is your mistake. Maybe, just maybe if you want to save this marriage you can. But the first thing your wife needs to learn is she made no mistake, but she made the worst possible decisions she possibly could.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lost in Iowa

drifting on said:


> Lost in Iowa
> 
> I keep noticing a word that sends me into a rage in your posts. I'm thinking that same word is possibly why your wife is not clear with boundaries. Also the fact you rug swept the physical affair and this word is glaring at me. I'm really left wondering about your wife, and I can't believe she is either ignorant or naive.
> 
> What would her reaction been when she came home and found out you had sex with the female UPS driver that comes through your neighborhood? Would she say you made a mistake? What if you met a guy from a dating site and only wanted a pen pal? Would that be a mistake? I have never googled this but us there a pen pal website as opposed to a dating website?
> 
> Do you see what I see from this? If I joined a dating site and then told my wife I wanted a pen pal, should she be a little skeptical here? If I had a physical affair should my wife be even more concerned? Now I look at my wife and say "boy, what a mistake I made, huh"? Lost in Iowa it's a choice, not a mistake. She chose to have that physical affair, she chose to join a dating site, and she chose to meet this second OM! That is the cold hard facts that you are well aware of, but exactly what did she learn from her first physical affair that she narrowly avoided a second time?
> 
> I agree you need to file for divorce, and tell her that is your mistake. Maybe, just maybe if you want to save this marriage you can. But the first thing your wife needs to learn is she made no mistake, but she made the worst possible decisions she possibly could.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


When you say choice and I say mistake, one mine is or sounds like an excuse. That is not what I mean, Yes, her actions were her choices. She admitted that to me a couple of weeks ago when she spoke to her therapist. All of those things were choices she made on her own, and were her actions. How she was feeling or thinking does not matter, her choices are what led us to this spot. I wish I could give me wife a redo or mulligan like in golf, ok, that did not count, maybe that is what I did the first time. I am not doing that now.
If I had an affair with a UPS gal, do I think my wife would divorce me, no. Not because she could condone it, but release I made a mistake or poor choice but can we work this out. If I had a second, third, forth affair, then she would reach a point of saying you can not change so our situation will be changed. That is where I am now, two chances, will not be a third. Some here think that filing will be that needed push for her to recommit back to me, I do not see it that way. She will see it as me closing the door to our marriage, not a step to her making a choice to recommit to me. She has said she wants to recommit to our marriage, and ask if I can forgive her. I have told her I am trying to forgive, but need time. But all the while saying here is this line, I will not be hurt again. I will try one last time.


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## turnera

lost in Iowa said:


> I am in Iowa, hence the name, Lost in Iowa.


Here you go.

Iowa Legal Aid


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## eastsouth2000

if its alright id like to ask a few question's.

so in all of this have you slept with other women while your wife was having an affair?
it would be so unfair.

have you ever slept with other women while you were married?

at some point in this relationship maybe sexual monogamy was out the window.

has your wife ever mentioned a "Free Pass" to make it up to you?
has she ever thought that it was unfair for just her to have an affair?
have you ever asked you wife what she'd feel if you had an affair?
has your wife ever mentioned opening up the marriage?

that feeling of being eaten and the unjust-ness of you wife's affair, i think that can be ease'd by having a free pass.

but in all of this, how does it affect you.
what about your sex-life? 
how often do you have sex with your wife?
and in a session how many times? how long?
is still exciting, can she still get you aroused?
is she happy with sex with you? 
do you still go out, dinners or vacations?


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## sapientia

lost in Iowa said:


> I plan on asking her confronting her tomorrow when she gets home from work. She is smart enough to figure out that I hacked into her gmail account and changed the password, she will just open up a new gmail account if I do not say something. Tell me what to do.


I know this may seem counter to most advice you will get here but what I would do is... say nothing. There is an old saying in negotiation which is "give them enough silence and they will hang themselves with it".

To your point, she is smart enough to know you hacked her account. Let her stew on this point. Start 180 and be cold to her, but without explanation. It will take self-control and you will need to master your emotions, but it will put her off her centre much more than confronting her ever would. This sounds manipulative and it absolutely is, but its also one of the best ways to shock her into a confession and, perhaps, a resolution.

Her: you seem upset 
You: Do I?
Her: what's wrong?
You: what makes you think something is wrong?

Turn every query of hers into one of your own. This whole situation is born of her complete disrespect of you and your marriage. Time to take your power back and move the needle back in your favour.

If she cries and confesses, let her but do not forgive her. Make her take responsibility for her actions. Tell her you need some space and take it. Give her lots of time to think on what she has done and whether it's worth it.

Post how it goes. Good luck.


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## lost in Iowa

eastsouth2000 said:


> if its alright id like to ask a few question's.
> 
> so in all of this have you slept with other women while your wife was having an affair?
> it would be so unfair.
> 
> have you ever slept with other women while you were married?
> 
> at some point in this relationship maybe sexual monogamy was out the window.
> 
> has your wife ever mentioned a "Free Pass" to make it up to you?
> has she ever thought that it was unfair for just her to have an affair?
> have you ever asked you wife what she'd feel if you had an affair?
> has your wife ever mentioned opening up the marriage?
> 
> that feeling of being eaten and the unjust-ness of you wife's affair, i think that can be ease'd by having a free pass.
> 
> but in all of this, how does it affect you.
> what about your sex-life?
> how often do you have sex with your wife?
> and in a session how many times? how long?
> is still exciting, can she still get you aroused?
> is she happy with sex with you?
> do you still go out, dinners or vacations?


1. No, only woman I have been with before or during our marriage is my wife.

2. Unfair, it would be wrong, and after my EA, I will not cross that line again.

3. Not willing to have a free pass or have an open marriage.

4. We have sex 3 or 4 times a week.

5. Yes, I still find her exciting and I get aroused, when you get into your 50' everything just takes longer.

6. She says she is happy with our sex life, and willing to try new things. We have anal once or twice a month, oral, different positions. ect.

7. My wife says she is sorry for putting our marriage in jeopardy, but she has done it twice.


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## Mr Blunt

> By LostInIowa
> *2010 *my wife turned 50 in April a salesman walked into her office, and within a month she slept with him…….Two weeks later she slept with him at our home……My wife admitted at the door she had slept with him, and said it was a mistake. She broke it off with him the next week.
> 
> *2011* my wife started talking with another man in the internet.
> 
> In *October of 2014* friendship/pin pal relationship changed and became more sexual. It was my wife leading this change, the emails clearly point out the OM did not want this, but with in month was drawn in.
> 
> They met in *May of 2015* one time, again the emails show they ate, kissed and made out, but did not have sex of any kind. I found the emails on July 7th
> 
> *July 2015* LostInIowa discovers affair
> 
> *August 2015*
> My wife has never been secure in herself only self doubt.
> 
> Her lack of a strong will and believing in herself is what causes a lot of her self doubt, so when a strange man gave her a complement five years ago, it went to her head.
> 
> That is her depression talking, I tried to reassure her, I asked what she would like to do, and *she said she would like to email the OM, he would know how she is feeling and have the right thing to say.*


*Your wife is weak, vulnerable, and has some deep internal issues that are not going away this year or years to come.* I am sure you know that but I thought that I would post the above so that you can see a condensed version. I know that it is easy to not want to see the facts but sometimes it is good to refer to them in the future as you have to make important decisions along the way. I really hope that you and your wife get all the help that you can so that you have a chance at making your marriage work. Your wife seems brutally honest and sincere as has been demonstrated by her ACTIONS so far. Actions for years will ell the truth.



> By LostInIowa
> My wife disrespected me for talking to another man on line, I could care less about the disrespect.
> 
> Disrespecting me would have her sleeping all around town, telling everyone that she is just staying here until she can find something better, none of that has happened.


I cannot fathom my wife substituting me with another man by talking to the OM about private matters and sex and me not caring about being disrespected. However, some men have a different threshold and it seems like it would take a whole lot before you cared about being disrespected.



> By LostInIowa
> That is where I am at now, should I leave and divorce her maybe, but can anyone on this board *guarantee **me a better life, and a woman that will love and cherish me for the rest of my life. No you cannot.*


Divorcing your wife or getting a pre-nup could help keep her from another EA or PA but you have determined that it will have a crushing effect on your wife. Both could be true or maybe only one be true.

You have decided to R and that is completely your prerogative. In fact you have a good rational by stating that divorcing your wife and finding another wife, at your age, could not guarantee a better life and a woman that will love and cherish you for the rest of your life. However, that rational has too high of a goal. I do not think that any of us can guarantee what you have described with our current wife or any other woman.* Your wife and you may have a successful R but you will never have what you described (guarantee) with your wife or any other woman IMO.*

At this point you and your wife seem determined to R and you may succeed. However, *you will have to reduce your expectations and settle for less than what you have described*. That is entirely possible and I hope that you both succeed. You seem like a man that can do that as you have already lived through a PA years ago. I wish you success!


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## sapientia

My concern, Iowa, is you will end up alone and 'doing it over' anyway? She is quite likely to leave should a 'better prospect' present itself given her lack of respect for you and your marriage.

You must love her very much to choose to overlook all this. You are clearly a very loyal person. I am very sorry for your situation. I hope you find a way to be happy. Is she possibly BP? Have you tried medication?


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## happyman64

Lost

It is interesting when your wife had sex with the OM that she did it in the house and told you right away.

Your wife needs a really good shrink.

You both need to firm up your boundaries, commit to them and then communicate honestly.

I wouldn't threaten divorce.

Make the consequences clear to her when you agree to the boundaries.

Then show her something.

Show her that you will be just fine moving forward in life without her.

Maybe she will grow up, wise up and choose to move forward with you as a loyal, loving partner.

I think you will find out pretty quickly what direction she will head in.

HM


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## drifting on

lost in Iowa said:


> When you say choice and I say mistake, one mine is or sounds like an excuse. That is not what I mean, Yes, her actions were her choices. She admitted that to me a couple of weeks ago when she spoke to her therapist. All of those things were choices she made on her own, and were her actions. How she was feeling or thinking does not matter, her choices are what led us to this spot. I wish I could give me wife a redo or mulligan like in golf, ok, that did not count, maybe that is what I did the first time. I am not doing that now.
> If I had an affair with a UPS gal, do I think my wife would divorce me, no. Not because she could condone it, but release I made a mistake or poor choice but can we work this out. If I had a second, third, forth affair, then she would reach a point of saying you can not change so our situation will be changed. That is where I am now, two chances, will not be a third. Some here think that filing will be that needed push for her to recommit back to me, I do not see it that way. She will see it as me closing the door to our marriage, not a step to her making a choice to recommit to me. She has said she wants to recommit to our marriage, and ask if I can forgive her. I have told her I am trying to forgive, but need time. But all the while saying here is this line, I will not be hurt again. I will try one last time.




Lost in Iowa

Ask your wife what would happen if you had an affair with the UPS girl, not what you would think she would do. The UPS girl would be the same as her physical affair. Meeting out of town, seven or eight times in person, show her how terrible her decision was. Next show her how she has thrown the golden gift of reconciliation into the sewer. Lost in Iowa she traveled how far from a work conference to meet him? I guarantee she would have had sex with him but OM said no. Are you not concerned with her decision making skills? I would be, add in the fact she has no boundaries and its a recipe for disaster. 

I respect your decision to reconcile, I am reconciling also, against all odds, but the difference is I have one step to make and our divorce will be full steam ahead. I separated finances, filled out the divorce paperwork, lawyer retained and awaiting my word to say go. My wife knows I'll divorce if need be, but she also knows if she does the heavy lifting, she stays within our boundaries, I will reconcile. I'm struggling very much, and that's with a model WS who appreciates the gift of reconciliation. You appreciated that same gift after your affair, but your wife took a great big s--t on it. 

You need to show your wife that this behavior is not tolerable, that you will survive without her, and you will explode her world if she even comes close to a boundary line. You need to be angry, tell her on every way how her choices are about to bring a storm of consequences that she will be humiliated by. Leave for the weekend and let her stew, don't answer any texts or calls, let her deal with all of it on her own. Let her see just how important you are to her, let her fall on her face and fail. It is the only way she will learn, right now she believes you are going to come save her, you did after the physical affair, and you are doing it again if she just mopes around feeling sorry for herself. You will do what you did the first time and save her again, and when she feels that she has you manipulated she begins with a new profile on another dating site. Then you will return here and say you caught her again, but you'll both be able to work through this MISTAKE again. 

Get firm, stay strong, and best of luck.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lost in Iowa

drifting on said:


> Lost in Iowa
> 
> Ask your wife what would happen if you had an affair with the UPS girl, not what you would think she would do. The UPS girl would be the same as her physical affair. Meeting out of town, seven or eight times in person, show her how terrible her decision was. Next show her how she has thrown the golden gift of reconciliation into the sewer. Lost in Iowa she traveled how far from a work conference to meet him? I guarantee she would have had sex with him but OM said no. Are you not concerned with her decision making skills? I would be, add in the fact she has no boundaries and its a recipe for disaster.
> 
> I respect your decision to reconcile, I am reconciling also, against all odds, but the difference is I have one step to make and our divorce will be full steam ahead. I separated finances, filled out the divorce paperwork, lawyer retained and awaiting my word to say go. My wife knows I'll divorce if need be, but she also knows if she does the heavy lifting, she stays within our boundaries, I will reconcile. I'm struggling very much, and that's with a model WS who appreciates the gift of reconciliation. You appreciated that same gift after your affair, but your wife took a great big s--t on it.
> 
> You need to show your wife that this behavior is not tolerable, that you will survive without her, and you will explode her world if she even comes close to a boundary line. You need to be angry, tell her on every way how her choices are about to bring a storm of consequences that she will be humiliated by. Leave for the weekend and let her stew, don't answer any texts or calls, let her deal with all of it on her own. Let her see just how important you are to her, let her fall on her face and fail. It is the only way she will learn, right now she believes you are going to come save her, you did after the physical affair, and you are doing it again if she just mopes around feeling sorry for herself. You will do what you did the first time and save her again, and when she feels that she has you manipulated she begins with a new profile on another dating site. Then you will return here and say you caught her again, but you'll both be able to work through this MISTAKE again.
> 
> Get firm, stay strong, and best of luck.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


To clear something in when she had her PA, the guy came into her office at work 7 or 8 times, she met him at a conference in Des Moines one time. The times in her office, he was trying to meet her and talk her into an affair. In my original post, he was a salesman that had done business with our town, as a reward, he took all the office girls out to lunch. My wife could not go that day, someone had to stay in the office to keep it open, the next week he was in town, and he took her out for lunch. That was the second time she had ever set eyes on him, while at lunch she commented on how beautiful she was an there is no way she is 50 years old. She does look much younger than her age, this is what started the affair. She told me later on he was hitting on her. Yes, she made a poor choice and should have shut it down right there, but their flirting turned into sleeping with the guy once.

During her EA, they met half way between where they were, her drive according to google maps was an hour and forty minutes. Yes, I am very concerned about her poor choices and what it has led too. She says the same thing, she was wrong. The other night I asked her if she thought it was wrong to meet her EA, and she said she thought it was wrong and crazy, but she wanted to meet him. So her desire to meet him was stronger than this is wrong and I should not do it. I would think at is typical of people having an affair, at anytime they can stop what they are doing, but they are so caught up in the affair, they do not think about the consequences of what they are doing. The affair is exciting, its wrong, and that adds to the excitement. I am not excusing what she did, but I suppose she had talked to the guy for four years by then, they had cybersex using text messages, so she was going to try and meet him and sleep with him. The OM was not ready for that yet, I found the messages before they could met again. There is little doubt, if they could have set up a second meeting, they would have slept together.
To her doing it again, there will not be a third time, if there is we are through, I have told her that everyday the past month. Another poor choice by her, our marriage is over, she says she knows that, and will not do it again. I know, she told you that before and she did it anyway. If she does it again, there will be no counseling like now, no attempt to R, I file and go on with my life. Tomorrow, next year or 10 years from now, we would be done.


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## bandit.45

Too little too late. 

I would have kicked her sorry as out when she screwed the OM in your marital bed. 

Did you at least get rid of the bed? Did you at least do that?


----------



## drifting on

Lost in Iowa

As gently as I can say this, you are protecting your wife, you are saving her, and you can't do that. I read your reply to me and all I see is you defending her as if it was a mistake. It was a choice, a terrible choice, and she never once thought of you. My WW admitted it was wrong, and when they had sex she almost threw up. My WW had guilt, NOT REMORSE, she said she felt sick and confused. The worst part, she sat right next to me in the car for an hour to drive home. Not a word said. But when you came home your WW cried to you she made a mistake. She just had sex with OM in your child's old bed. That had to mess her up badly, I couldn't even imagine that.

You offer reconciliation and I really hope you make it. I hope you make it as that is because you want it. Will it be difficult, yes, is her previous history good, no. You need to stop protecting her, kick the pedestal from under her feet, and let her know in a not so nice way that her choices will be made by you. Have her call you from her office to go on break, drink coffee, go to lunch, and clock out to come home. No seminars, conferences, nothing. When she begins to display good decision making skills, then give her some room. What I don't get is even in the midst of the affair you are believing that her going to meet him is due to the affair itself. Because it was wrong, because it was exciting, and all the other excuses you gave for her. She drove for an hour possibly two, and at no point did she think anything was wrong. Why do you think that is? Because she wanted to cheat.

You can't control her, but you can control if you want her or not, and it doesn't appear you are very happy. So make her FEEL your unhappiness, make her feel your anger, make her feel this could be the end of the marriage. If she shuts down you have your answer without wasting years of your life. Make her pursue you as she did OM!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lost in Iowa

bandit.45 said:


> Too little too late.
> 
> I would have kicked her sorry as out when she screwed the OM in your marital bed.
> 
> Did you at least get rid of the bed? Did you at least do that?


Bandit, I am glad to hear your advise, its ****, but any advise is worth listening too. Through my whole experience here, you have done nothing but say every decision I have made is wrong. I get that, you would have immediately kicked her out of the house, burned the bed, and filed for divorce. You have stated all the above. No, I did not get rid of the bed, I no longer go in the that room, and as a matter of fact, I told my wife we should get rid of it just last night as I was reading a book on recovering from a spouses affair. We will get rid of the bed, but not now. I am committed to this recovery, doing the best I can, if she cheats again, we are through. Ok, so please unless your are going to offer me helpful advise, please stop your smartass remarks at my expense. They are not helpful and do nothing for me. I am not attacking you in anyway, but just stop this. You and I are not getting into a sword waving show of how we kicked the slvt out of the house, because she had an affair. My wife and I are trying to recover our marriage.


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## lost in Iowa

drifting on said:


> Lost in Iowa
> 
> As gently as I can say this, you are protecting your wife, you are saving her, and you can't do that. I read your reply to me and all I see is you defending her as if it was a mistake. It was a choice, a terrible choice, and she never once thought of you. My WW admitted it was wrong, and when they had sex she almost threw up. My WW had guilt, NOT REMORSE, she said she felt sick and confused. The worst part, she sat right next to me in the car for an hour to drive home. Not a word said. But when you came home your WW cried to you she made a mistake. She just had sex with OM in your child's old bed. That had to mess her up badly, I couldn't even imagine that.
> 
> You offer reconciliation and I really hope you make it. I hope you make it as that is because you want it. Will it be difficult, yes, is her previous history good, no. You need to stop protecting her, kick the pedestal from under her feet, and let her know in a not so nice way that her choices will be made by you. Have her call you from her office to go on break, drink coffee, go to lunch, and clock out to come home. No seminars, conferences, nothing. When she begins to display good decision making skills, then give her some room. What I don't get is even in the midst of the affair you are believing that her going to meet him is due to the affair itself. Because it was wrong, because it was exciting, and all the other excuses you gave for her. She drove for an hour possibly two, and at no point did she think anything was wrong. Why do you think that is? Because she wanted to cheat.
> 
> You can't control her, but you can control if you want her or not, and it doesn't appear you are very happy. So make her FEEL your unhappiness, make her feel your anger, make her feel this could be the end of the marriage. If she shuts down you have your answer without wasting years of your life. Make her pursue you as she did OM!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I am not defending her actions, I am sorry you read it that way. When I caught her after her PA, she showed guilt, she was trembling as she told me, she asked me "do you want me to leave?" I told her we can make this work. That night we talked and cried for three or four hours, she said she would break off talking or seeing the other man. the next day, she showed me her phone she tried to call him three times to break it off, he would not pick up. On the next Monday, again three times and he walked into her office on Tuesday, and she broke it off. Two months later he walked into her office and tried twice to talk to her, the second time is when I caught him and threated to beat the **** out of him and called his boss. That is when he stopped talking to her. On her drive to meet her OM, she said yes, she did feel it was a wrong, it was a terrible choice on her part, but all affairs are terrible choices. 60% of all marriages have one spouse having an affair, none were good choices. We have talked about all the things you say I should do, and I am doing many of them. We can either try through counseling to end this problem, which we are, or I can start over. I hear a lot of people saying, just start over, and stop putting yourself through this, maybe they are right, but I am willing to try one more time. If she cheats again, then it was a fools errand, and our marriage will be over, but if not, this will strengthen our marriage, just like my EA did for me. My EA convinced me that I will never do anything like that again to my wife. Now she through talking to me and her counselor, she must make the same commitment for our marriage to survive.


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## drifting on

lost in Iowa said:


> I am not defending her actions, I am sorry you read it that way. When I caught her after her PA, she showed guilt, she was trembling as she told me, she asked me "do you want me to leave?" I told her we can make this work. That night we talked and cried for three or four hours, she said she would break off taking to the other man the next day, she showed me her phone she tried to call him e times the next day to break it off, he would not pick up. On the next Monday, again three times and he walked into her office on Tuesday, and she broke it off. Two months later he tried twice to talk to her, the second time is when I caught him and threated to beat the **** out of him and called his boss. That is when we stopped talking to her. On her drive to meet her OM, she said yes, she did feel it was a wrong, it was a terrible choice on her part, but all affairs are terrible choices. 60% of all marriages have on spouse having an affair, none were good choices. We have talked about all the things you say I should do, and I am doing many of them. We can either try through counseling to end this problem, which we are, or I can start over. I hear a lot of people saying, just start over, and stop putting yourself through this, maybe they are right, but I am willing to try one more time. If she cheats again, then it was a fools errand, and our marriage will be over, but if not, this will strengthen our marriage, just like my EA did for me. My EA convinced me that I will never do anything like that again to my wife. Now she through talking to me and her counselor must make the same commitment for our marriage to survive.




Lost in Iowa

Again gently said, I'm trying to understand the thinking if your wife, and your thinking. When OM 1 came to your house, how did your wife feel? Excitement, guilt, happy. When you came home, how did she feel other then guilt? Scared, excitement, sad. Here is where I'm failing to see her thinking, she saw how this hurt you, she saw and felt what it did to her. Yet those feelings were pushed aside, and she drove to meet OM two. She drove a considerable distance, her rationale should never been able to do this. Unless she wanted to feel what I think to be horrible feelings, again. Why? 

I understand about infidelity in marriage, I'm a grand prize winner also, but how do you set yourself up for infidelity a second time? This is where she needs to do much self reflecting to figure this out. If you stand beside her, she may make it, and she may not. I respect your decision to stand by her, she is going to need your help, she will also need to have some very difficult conversations with you. I wish you and your wife the best of luck.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

She's going to therapy, right? For the foreseeable future?

And what concrete steps is she taking to remove her need to please herself at the risk of hurting someone else? I know how hard it is to remove a personal compulsion. I've been trying to change one about myself and some days I can, and some days I just say screw it, I'm gonna do it anyway. I'd want to see that she has put hard thought about it and how to change that about herself.


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## Thor

lost in Iowa said:


> 1. No, only woman I have been with before or during our marriage is my wife.


I take this to mean you were a virgin when you met your wife. How much do you think this is playing into your desire to save the marriage?


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## lost in Iowa

drifting on said:


> Lost in Iowa
> 
> Again gently said, I'm trying to understand the thinking if your wife, and your thinking. When OM 1 came to your house, how did your wife feel? Excitement, guilt, happy. When you came home, how did she feel other then guilt? Scared, excitement, sad. Here is where I'm failing to see her thinking, she saw how this hurt you, she saw and felt what it did to her. Yet those feelings were pushed aside, and she drove to meet OM two. She drove a considerable distance, her rationale should never been able to do this. Unless she wanted to feel what I think to be horrible feelings, again. Why?
> 
> I understand about infidelity in marriage, I'm a grand prize winner also, but how do you set yourself up for infidelity a second time? This is where she needs to do much self reflecting to figure this out. If you stand beside her, she may make it, and she may not. I respect your decision to stand by her, she is going to need your help, she will also need to have some very difficult conversations with you. I wish you and your wife the best of luck.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The first man, she picked him up, he had parked at the market and drove him to our house. She let him out and parked in our garage. She said she was nervous, I asked her, when did you finally decide to sleep with him, and she said, as they went upstairs, she said she had gone to far, to turn back now. Afterward she said they laid in the bed a few minutes, they got up and dressed and she drove him to two blocks back to his truck. When I showed up, show was showing fear, telling me when I walked in the door "I did it", when I asked her what, she said she had slept with the other man. We talked about it for the next 3 or 4 hours, she said it was wrong, wanted to know if I was going to divorce her, and she then asked if she should leave? We talked about it, and she again stated, I really did not decide to sleep with him, until we were walking up the stairs, she did say she was worried but excited, first time with someone other than me. I asked her how was it, and she said it was terrible, she was so small that she could barely feel him, and it was a disappointment, not at all what she hoped. She said she was sorry, and said she would break it off. Which she did five days later.


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## sapientia

Wow. Well, you've made your choice. "Keep on the path you are on and get where you are going" seems to apply. I don't know what else to offer except good luck Iowa.


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## lost in Iowa

Thor said:


> I take this to mean you were a virgin when you met your wife. How much do you think this is playing into your desire to save the marriage?


We had sex while we were dating, we were high school sweethearts. I think me not sleeping with others led to my EA, what would it be like to sleep with someone other than my wife. She said the same thing about her PA. I would not say it was a burning desire, as much as just curious. I think both of us just wondered, what did I miss out in when I was young. Today, I think only sleeping with one woman, my wife, is something I am proud off, and do not choose to give up. I told my wife, I hate her PA, because that is what he took from me, you have now slept with another man, and I am not you only one. I was not mad at her, but more disappointed she had given that up. The guy was a total sleaze, he was a player, and hooked up with different woman all the time. Today, she is embarrassed for falling for his lines, and then letting herself sleep with him.


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## lost in Iowa

turnera said:


> She's going to therapy, right? For the foreseeable future?
> 
> And what concrete steps is she taking to remove her need to please herself at the risk of hurting someone else? I know how hard it is to remove a personal compulsion. I've been trying to change one about myself and some days I can, and some days I just say screw it, I'm gonna do it anyway. I'd want to see that she has put hard thought about it and how to change that about herself.


Yes, we are both in therapy with different therapist, we both have appointments tomorrow. Her will continue for a long time, she wants to get over her depression, and what it does to our marriage. She will never be cured, but hopefully better to cope with it. When I got home Friday, she was already worried about me going to work in a couple of weeks, and how lonely she gets when I am coaching. The coach most of the year, I told her that I have already signed the contracts for this year, and I am committed but would be able to cut back next year. I told her maybe should plan a night out with a friend on the nights I have a game. Pick 3 or 4 old friends, and meet up each one, on a different night once a month. We suggested we could take a weekend away, without our daughter, and I said if we could that would be great. We do have season ticket to Iowa State football, and go to the home games, tailgate with our kids and spend one night at their house. We do take our special needs child with us, generally we all tailgate together, and then the guys go to the game and the gals go back to our daughters home and play with the grandkids. None of the gals want to go to the game, but enjoy tailgating and being around friends and family.


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## lost in Iowa

sapientia said:


> Wow. Well, you've made your choice. "Keep on the path you are on and get where you are going" seems to apply. I don't know what else to offer except good luck Iowa.


Yes, I have and thank you.


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## Tobyboy

lost in Iowa said:


> The first man, she picked him up, he had parked at the market and drove him to our house. She let him out and parked in our garage. She said she was nervous, I asked her, when did you finally decide to sleep with him, and she said, as they went upstairs, she said she had gone to far, to turn back now. Afterward she said they laid in the bed a few minutes, they got up and dressed and she drove him to two blocks back to his truck. When I showed up, show was showing fear, telling me when I walked in the door *"I did it"*, when I asked her what, she said she had slept with the other man. We talked about it for the next 3 or 4 hours, she said it was wrong, wanted to know if I was going to divorce her, and she then asked if she should leave? We talked about it, and she again stated, I really did not decide to sleep with him, until we were walking up the stairs, she did say she was worried but excited, first time with someone other than me. I asked her how was it, and she said it was terrible, she was so small that she could barely feel him, and it was a disappointment, not at all what she hoped. She said she was sorry, and said she would break it off. Which she did five days later.


You know.......from my view, it appears that your WW wants out of the marriage, just wants you to make the final decision. What else can she do to you to make it happen? PA....nope. EA.....nope. Admitting to wanting to have sex with the EA....nope. Wonder what she'll do next?


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## drifting on

lost in Iowa said:


> The first man, she picked him up, he had parked at the market and drove him to our house. She let him out and parked in our garage. She said she was nervous, I asked her, when did you finally decide to sleep with him, and she said, as they went upstairs, she said she had gone to far, to turn back now. Afterward she said they laid in the bed a few minutes, they got up and dressed and she drove him to two blocks back to his truck. When I showed up, show was showing fear, telling me when I walked in the door "I did it", when I asked her what, she said she had slept with the other man. We talked about it for the next 3 or 4 hours, she said it was wrong, wanted to know if I was going to divorce her, and she then asked if she should leave? We talked about it, and she again stated, I really did not decide to sleep with him, until we were walking up the stairs, she did say she was worried but excited, first time with someone other than me. I asked her how was it, and she said it was terrible, she was so small that she could barely feel him, and it was a disappointment, not at all what she hoped. She said she was sorry, and said she would break it off. Which she did five days later.




Lost, I'm really trying to help you, and what I'm asking you will probably upset you. I don't know if she meant it this way or if this is the way it was worded. At the end you wrote "not at all what she hoped". So here is my perspective on this if this was stated by her when she confessed. 

Your wife is the pursuer in both affairs. Planning took place for each of these events to occur. The first, your wife snuck him into the garage, the second she planned this with a work conference. On the second affair she would also have to google restaurants or hotels in that city ahead of time. This tells me not only is she willing to cheat, but is able to compartmentalize her affairs. In essence she basically lives two separate lives, on with you and one with her OM's. 

When she had sex with OM 1, she liked it, and I can tell you she wasn't done either. The fact she says he is small, couldn't feel anything, her words to you "I did it", "not what she had hoped for". Everything she said screams she will do it again. Her asking if you want her to leave, is her wanting to leave to continue. Your wife will deny all this with you, in fact she has somewhat manipulated you to believe all she has said. I don't believe he was a player so much, being small would give him a bad reputation, so you know he isn't. I believe she stayed behind to keep the office open knowing full well he would ask her to go alone. And from there it's all green lights. What bothers me is you trust her far more then you will admit. Read this post of yours as if I wrote it, you will see what I mean. You say she didn't decide to sleep with him until walking upstairs, yet she drove to the market, hid him through the garage, but really planned on having tea. Her decision was made the minute she stayed back at work to keep the office open. 

The second affair she corresponded for four years, planned a meet with her schedule through work and his work. The only reason they didn't sleep together when they met, you're wife was too aggressive and that scared OM 2. She wasn't meeting him for tea either, she met him thinking they were having sex. Will your wife stop pursuing? I really don't know, and that scares me! 

Lost in Iowa if you want to reconcile that's fine, I'll support you, but this is just some of the self reflecting your wife will have to do. Her next step is to then tell you the truth, she is lying about both OM's and she needs to come clean to you in order for reconciliation to work. You seem that you want your marriage to work, I don't know if you will when you get the truth, which you haven't received yet. Best of luck.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thor

lost in Iowa said:


> We had sex while we were dating, we were high school sweethearts. I think me not sleeping with others led to my EA, what would it be like to sleep with someone other than my wife. She said the same thing about her PA. I would not say it was a burning desire, as much as just curious. I think both of us just wondered, what did I miss out in when I was young. Today, I think only sleeping with one woman, my wife, is something I am proud off, and do not choose to give up. I told my wife, I hate her PA, because that is what he took from me, you have now slept with another man, and I am not you only one. I was not mad at her, but more disappointed she had given that up. The guy was a total sleaze, he was a player, and hooked up with different woman all the time. Today, she is embarrassed for falling for his lines, and then letting herself sleep with him.


Good stuff. I have to run due to some family obligations but I want to come back to this later today or tomorrow. I am in the same boat as you. There is something unique and special which can never be replicated. The difference between 0 and 1 is huge, but I think the difference between 1 and >1 is at least as big.


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## manfromlamancha

LostInIowa, I think that you don't see or realise what many of us can see as clear as daylight. Bandit doesn't mince words but his advice has nearly always been spot on - driftingon has a softer more gentle way of putting it but is saying almost exactly what Bandit told you. And they are both right.

I tend to bullet point things:



First, your wife is the furthest thing from remorseful because she hurt you. She is only sorry that she gets caught although she is almost crying out to be caught.


Each time she plans meticulously and lies professionally. These are not "act on impulse" happenings or "don't know why I did it" happenings. They are purposeful vile acts for her own gratification and here's the thing: she doesn't give a rat's a$$ about you when she does this.


Both of the above two points says that not only do you not have a marriage but also that you never did - she is almost certainly now acting on something she has wanted to do all these married years.


What you have described is that she is capable of fooling you each time with fake remorse and that she has never faced any real consequences for her shenanigans. In fact, in her mind if you stay, that's fine and if you go, it is equally fine.


You continue to give her chances and you always have an explanation for her very simple and easy to understand actions. They are easy to understand if you see her for what she is not for what you want her to be.


Summary: you do not have a marriage to save and she is not happy with you - may never have been. Your life is not going to be better staying with her. You still have a chance of finding someone who genuinely loves you as opposed to someone who does stuff for you when she gets caught.


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## lost in Iowa

drifting on said:


> Lost, I'm really trying to help you, and what I'm asking you will probably upset you. I don't know if she meant it this way or if this is the way it was worded. At the end you wrote "not at all what she hoped". So here is my perspective on this if this was stated by her when she confessed.
> 
> Your wife is the pursuer in both affairs. Planning took place for each of these events to occur. The first, your wife snuck him into the garage, the second she planned this with a work conference. On the second affair she would also have to google restaurants or hotels in that city ahead of time. This tells me not only is she willing to cheat, but is able to compartmentalize her affairs. In essence she basically lives two separate lives, on with you and one with her OM's.
> 
> When she had sex with OM 1, she liked it, and I can tell you she wasn't done either. The fact she says he is small, couldn't feel anything, her words to you "I did it", "not what she had hoped for". Everything she said screams she will do it again. Her asking if you want her to leave, is her wanting to leave to continue. Your wife will deny all this with you, in fact she has somewhat manipulated you to believe all she has said. I don't believe he was a player so much, being small would give him a bad reputation, so you know he isn't. I believe she stayed behind to keep the office open knowing full well he would ask her to go alone. And from there it's all green lights. What bothers me is you trust her far more then you will admit. Read this post of yours as if I wrote it, you will see what I mean. You say she didn't decide to sleep with him until walking upstairs, yet she drove to the market, hid him through the garage, but really planned on having tea. Her decision was made the minute she stayed back at work to keep the office open.
> 
> The second affair she corresponded for four years, planned a meet with her schedule through work and his work. The only reason they didn't sleep together when they met, you're wife was too aggressive and that scared OM 2. She wasn't meeting him for tea either, she met him thinking they were having sex. Will your wife stop pursuing? I really don't know, and that scares me!
> 
> Lost in Iowa if you want to reconcile that's fine, I'll support you, but this is just some of the self reflecting your wife will have to do. Her next step is to then tell you the truth, she is lying about both OM's and she needs to come clean to you in order for reconciliation to work. You seem that you want your marriage to work, I don't know if you will when you get the truth, which you haven't received yet. Best of luck.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My wife was not the pursuer in her PA, the other man was, that is the type of man he is. All of us know men like him, he is a salesman and likes to sleep around. He charmed my wife, she liked his attention, and he got what he wanted to sleep with her. I suppose my wife got what she wanted to experience having sex with someone other than her husband. She said afterward it was not what she hoped it would be at all. She dreamed it would be romantic and the sex would be fantastic, it was not, because he was only cared about himself, not her. To him, my wife was just another gal he talked into sleeping with him. My wife said, when she came out of the fog, it was nothing like she thought it would be. 

As for her setting up meeting with the EA, it was him doing all the work, I have read the email asking her, when she would be in Des Moines, and him saying his schedule for April is not our yet, but he knew he had to go to the Mayo clinic in April and he would try to schedule it for the week she would be in Des Moines. He was the one that chose the town to meet, and sent her a photo of the Surf Ball Room, where he would pick her up. They did talk about where to eat, and according to the emails, she told him, choose a place where we can get a drink and something to eat. I have googled places to eat in the Clear Lake, the town they met, and there are not a ton of choices.

I understand you are trying to help me, but I also think you are looking back at her first affair, and saying, she was doing and saying all these things like it waa a grand plan to sleep with her. May I ask, why would she do that after 30 of marriage? Would she not be doing it the whole time, which I know she has not. After sleeping with the man, she went and got tested for std's. The nurse at the hospital knows her, and ask, her "what has Lost done now?" And my wife told her, it was not me but her that sex outside the marriage.

I was thinking a few minutes ago, we are all bias on this board, we are colored by our own past. For you, you say that allows you to be objective, which may be true, but you do not have my insight of living with my wife for 36 years. I do not think for a moment my wife was out planning to sleep with a salesman that walked into her office, she planned to stay at work and then planned to have an affair with him. He showed her affections, and she got cut up in it. Sometimes there is not some dark secret plan, it just happens. The book I have been reading says 90% of affairs start without the spouse looking to cheat, most start as friends, coworkers, or a one time chance meeting. Less than 10% was the cheating spouse, going out to cheat when they first met. 

Again, I know you are trying to help me, and my wife's decisions have been very poor in the matter, but I do not thing her goal in either affairs was looking for someone to sleep with, at least not the start. In her EA, yes, she was hopping to sleep with the man when they met, they had been talking for four years. Its not like she went on the singles site looking for someone to sleep with. She herself told me, she was looking for someone not local, but hundreds of miles away. She wanted someone to talk too. I asked her last night, why she did not look for a female, and she said, the thought never crossed my mind to look for a woman, it was a singles site, and she clinked female looking for male to talk, nothing more.


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## sapientia

lost in Iowa said:


> My wife was not the pursuer in her PA, the other man was, that is the type of man he is.


I was pursued by a family friend when I was married to my ex. So are lots of married men and women, who say "no". In my case, even though we both knew our marriage was over, I shoved our 'friend' off.

Even though I felt and attraction, I put my values of respect for myself, and my marriage which was not yet over, above any transient feelings for this guy. I chose to view myself as unavailable and acted accordingly. Clearly your wife doesn't share your values of respect for marriage and loyalty, having cheated on you twice so far. It also sounds like she has problems with being assertive and saying no.

I think if divorce isn't on the table then you are just going to have to find a way to be okay with her occasional flings. The cause doesn't matter, unless you think its based in mental illness and can be treated.

Lots of women live this way in their marriages to over-sexed men, choosing to turn a blind eye to their affairs in exchange for financial security. It's simply a question of whether your love for her is worth the pain she puts you through. Your choice, as discussed before. Good luck.


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## drifting on

lost in Iowa said:


> My wife was not the pursuer in her PA, the other man was, that is the type of man he is. All of us know men like him, he is a salesman and likes to sleep around. He charmed my wife, she liked his attention, and he got what he wanted to sleep with her. I suppose my wife got what she wanted to experience having sex with someone other than her husband. She said afterward it was not what she hoped it would be at all. She dreamed it would be romantic and the sex would be fantastic, it was not, because he was only cared about himself, not her. To him, my wife was just another gal he talked into sleeping with him. My wife said, when she came out of the fog, it was nothing like she thought it would be.
> 
> As for her setting up meeting with the EA, it was him doing all the work, I have read the email asking her, when she would be in Des Moines, and him saying his schedule for April is not our yet, but he knew he had to go to the Mayo clinic in April and he would try to schedule it for the week she would be in Des Moines. He was the one that chose the town to meet, and sent her a photo of the Surf Ball Room, where he would pick her up. They did talk about where to eat, and according to the emails, she told him, choose a place where we can get a drink and something to eat. I have googled places to eat in the Clear Lake, the town they met, and there are not a ton of choices.




Lost, even more gently said but why didn't OM 1 just drive to your house? Why did he sneak through the garage? Why meet at a market? Why just have sex and she drive him back? How would he know he could be hid through the garage? Now, I ask you this, a player is not concerned about being seen, but your wife is. 

Your wife says "I did it". Why? Was she proud? Let me say one thing, nobody says I did it, and then confesses, well in my expierience anyway. My first take reading this was that it had been discussed between the two of you. Was it? Who just blurts that out when their spouse comes home? Do you not find that a little off?

"Not what I hoped for". She thought it would be romantic, she thought the sex would be better, this I would expect from a juvenile. Is she? And only a juvenile would believe that. Are you? So it's ok in her mind to cheat because she thought it would be so much better then married sex? She thought it would be more then what she got? No Lost, it was exactly what she thought, it was sex with someone else, it was dirty cheater sex, and she liked it. She planned the whole thing out. She figured out how to sneak him in and out, drive him back to his car, the planning here is calculated. Worse yet you ignore this. Sit down with her and act like you don't believe it, see what happens, challenge her answers and they will change.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lost in Iowa

manfromlamancha said:


> LostInIowa, I think that you don't see or realise what many of us can see as clear as daylight. Bandit doesn't mince words but his advice has nearly always been spot on - driftingon has a softer more gentle way of putting it but is saying almost exactly what Bandit told you. And they are both right.
> 
> I tend to bullet point things:
> 
> 
> 
> First, your wife is the furthest thing from remorseful because she hurt you. She is only sorry that she gets caught although she is almost crying out to be caught.
> 
> 
> Each time she plans meticulously and lies professionally. These are not "act on impulse" happenings or "don't know why I did it" happenings. They are purposeful vile acts for her own gratification and here's the thing: she doesn't give a rat's a$$ about you when she does this.
> 
> 
> Both of the above two points says that not only do you not have a marriage but also that you never did - she is almost certainly now acting on something she has wanted to do all these married years.
> 
> 
> What you have described is that she is capable of fooling you each time with fake remorse and that she has never faced any real consequences for her shenanigans. In fact, in her mind if you stay, that's fine and if you go, it is equally fine.
> 
> 
> You continue to give her chances and you always have an explanation for her very simple and easy to understand actions. They are easy to understand if you see her for what she is not for what you want her to be.
> 
> 
> Summary: you do not have a marriage to save and she is not happy with you - may never have been. Your life is not going to be better staying with her. You still have a chance of finding someone who genuinely loves you as opposed to someone who does stuff for you when she gets caught.


May I ask, how do you know she was not remorseful, that she is playing me? She never loved me and only stays because she knows I will not force her to leave. So according to you, my wife's plan is to lay low, let this quiet down and then either pick up her EA affair, or go after someone else. That she will never stop what she is doing because she finds it exciting. Then how does anyone ever change their behavior? How do people that are alcoholics stop drinking, how do drug addicts stop their drug usage and go on to have normal lives. Is it easy, no, but they can change, the key, is wanting to change. I told myself after my Ea, I will never do this again, I have been true to my commitment for twenty years. People do change they just have to want to change. My wife says she does, if we are to stay together, she must. 

This is the bias that I am talking about, I mentioned in an earlier thread about how my wife feels sometimes like our special needs daughter is a ball and chain, after I wrote that, someone wanted to know how I did not through her out on the street? I feel the same way sometimes, it is a ball and chain, every parent of a handicapped child will say the same thing. People love to read things on sites like this, and according to their bias or what happened to them, they say you should do this and only this, or you are wrong. Couples do recover from affairs, it happens everyday, they both have to want the marriage, more than anything else. That is what the book on affairs is teaching me, couples that both want the marriage can save the marriage and make it better and stronger than ever. If either one does not, then the marriage will not survive. My wife has told me, and her counseling, I heard her say it, she want to remain my wife and stop what she has been doing. So do I.


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## sapientia

You also might benefit from reading Will Harley's site, especially the section on "How Affairs Start". It's rarely about sex.

Coping with Infidelity: Beginning (Part 1)

Anyway, Drifting seems to have your back on this and you don't seem to want advice from a woman who has actually said no to an affair so I'll leave you to it.


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## lost in Iowa

sapientia said:


> I was pursued by a family friend when I was married to my ex. So are lots of married men and women, who say "no". In my case, even though we both knew our marriage was over, I shoved our 'friend' off.
> 
> Even though I felt and attraction, I put my values of respect for myself, and my marriage which was not yet over, above any transient feelings for this guy. I chose to view myself as unavailable and acted accordingly. Clearly your wife doesn't share your values of respect for marriage and loyalty, having cheated on you twice so far. It also sounds like she has problems with being assertive and saying no.
> 
> I think if divorce isn't on the table then you are just going to have to find a way to be okay with her occasional flings. The cause doesn't matter, unless you think its based in mental illness and can be treated.
> 
> Lots of women live this way in their marriages to over-sexed men, choosing to turn a blind eye to their affairs in exchange for financial security. It's simply a question of whether your love for her is worth the pain she puts you through. Your choice, as discussed before. Good luck.


Divorce is on the table, and no, I am not willing to let her have any other occasional flings. I think the cause is her neurotic depression. No I have not filed for divorce, but that does not mean I will not do it. Why does not filing show weakness? Why is it that some people think you can not talk and through counseling work this out? Some one mentioned before about a child stealing a candy bar, the first child gets chowed out, and second child is taken back to the store and forced to tell the owner what they did. See the second child was held accountable and changed, the first was not held accountable and that led to not changing. How do we not know the first kid would not change by being chewed out? The worst think that could happen to me would be going to prison, it would destroy me, but if you look at the rate of people that have been in prison something like 80% return to prison after release in 2 to 5 years. To me that is crazy, but for some, they will never change, I do not think my wife is one of those people, if I did, I would have divorces her after her PA. She says she wants to change, is in therapy, now she must do the hard work and change, I can only do so much to help her, but I am willing to try, as long as she is willing and stops the affairs, we have a chance.


----------



## lost in Iowa

sapientia said:


> You also might benefit from reading Will Harley's site, especially the section on "How Affairs Start". It's rarely about sex.
> 
> Coping with Infidelity: Beginning (Part 1)
> 
> Anyway, Drifting seems to have your back on this and you don't seem to want advice from a woman who has actually said no to an affair so I'll leave you to it.


I have looked at the site you quoted, I am more than willing to listen to what you have to say, being a woman or man, does not matter. I commend you for staying true to your marriage, I just wish more people would also do the same thing.


----------



## lost in Iowa

drifting on said:


> Lost, even more gently said but why didn't OM 1 just drive to your house? Why did he sneak through the garage? Why meet at a market? Why just have sex and she drive him back? How would he know he could be hid through the garage? Now, I ask you this, a player is not concerned about being seen, but your wife is.
> 
> Your wife says "I did it". Why? Was she proud? Let me say one thing, nobody says I did it, and then confesses, well in my expierience anyway. My first take reading this was that it had been discussed between the two of you. Was it? Who just blurts that out when their spouse comes home? Do you not find that a little off?
> 
> "Not what I hoped for". She thought it would be romantic, she thought the sex would be better, this I would expect from a juvenile. Is she? And only a juvenile would believe that. Are you? So it's ok in her mind to cheat because she thought it would be so much better then married sex? She thought it would be more then what she got? No Lost, it was exactly what she thought, it was sex with someone else, it was dirty cheater sex, and she liked it. She planned the whole thing out. She figured out how to sneak him in and out, drive him back to his car, the planning here is calculated. Worse yet you ignore this. Sit down with her and act like you don't believe it, see what happens, challenge her answers and they will change.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I asked my wife "why did you pick him up, and she said she did not want people talk if they saw his truck outside our house. So he parked in a public place and got him with her. Was she excited when she told me she had slept with him, smiling saying it was great, she could not wait to do it again. No, it was just the opposite, she said she feels like she was a piece of meat, and was wondering "How could she do that to me and herself?" The planning, was this, he called her, I am coming to town, she tells him to call when he gets close to town. When he gets five minutes from the market, he calls her and she tells him to park there, and she will pick him up. She had already told her boss she was taking the rest of the day off. She was taking comp. time. He calls, she picks him up and drive the two blocks to our house. I have asked her, did you know he was coming to town that day, and she said she did not for sure, but it was a Thursday, and that is when he generally was in town. The phone records show they spoke on Tuesday, she did ask him if he would be in town on Thursday and his response was most likely, but he did not know for sure.


----------



## lost in Iowa

When she had sex with OM 1, she liked it, and I can tell you she wasn't done either.

How do you know any of this? Do you know my wife, if you do, she does not read this board, is there something I should know that you can tell me. Not generalizations but facts, if so, please call my home, or email me at home, she is asleep and will never know. If the sex was so great and she loved every moment of it, why would she start an EA with a man a thousand miles away? Why just not continue with the guy she slept with? You said she liked it, why change now. Oh, because you caught them and called his boss, I did not call his boss for two more months. So why would he worry about me exposing him then. I was out of the summer within three weeks, not much time to sleep with him then, and I was emailing her and checking on her the whole time. If she thought it was great she would have continued to sleep with him, believe me I know plenty of men like this, after I confronted him, I walked back outside and he was sitting in his truck crying.


----------



## drifting on

lost in Iowa said:


> I asked my wife "why did you pick him up, and she said she did not want people talk if they saw his truck outside our house. So he parked in a public place and got him with her. Was she excited when she told me she had slept with him, smiling saying it was great, she could not wait to do it again. No, it was just the opposite, she said she feels like she was a piece of meat, and was wondering "How could she do that to me and herself?" The planning, was this, he called her, I am coming to town, she tells him to call when he gets close to town. When he gets five minutes from the market, he calls her and she tells him to park there, and she will pick him up. She had already told her boss she was taking the rest of the day off. She was taking comp. time. He calls, she picks him up and drive the two blocks to our house. I have asked her, did you know he was coming to town that day, and she said she did not for sure, but it was a Thursday, and that is when he generally was in town. The phone records show they spoke on Tuesday, she did ask him if he would be in town on Thursday and his response was most likely, but he did not know for sure.



Lost,

I asked my wife "why did you pick him up, and she said she did not want people talk if they saw his truck outside our house. PLANNED, she was already thinking of not getting caught. Why would people talk if the meeting at your house was INNOCENT?????

him to call when he gets close to town. When he gets five minutes from the market, he calls her and she tells him to park there, and she will pick him up. WHAT PLAN DID HE MAKE? HOW DID HE TELL HER TO SNEAK HIM IN? SHE DID THAT!!!!

She had already told her boss she was taking the rest of the day off. She was taking comp. time. SO SHE TALKED TO HIM ON TUESDAY, HIS NORMAL DAY IN TOWN AND SHE TAKES OFF. CONVIENIENT. 

Why she didn't cheat through your entire marriage I don't know. You talk how people change, I agree, people do change, so why did your wife change to cheating? Why did she not learn after the first time it was so bad? Was she going to do this until she had a great outing? These are questions for your wife with your words that people change. I agree people change, I have myself, but you say you want your wife to change back to what she was. That won't happen as she has changed much like yourself. Can she change back? Yes, but she cheated physically and then cheated for four years and wanted that to be physical. I don't think the question is can she change but rather does she want to give up on having the open marriage it looks like she so desperately wants. Again I'll support you Lost, but you need to see the facts and truth, and again your not getting this from your wife. Also don't forget, I am a BS going through reconciliation, I protected my wife as you are, when you can change then answer this post. But if your answers are the same as they are through this thread don't bother typing them out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## eastsouth2000

the biggest issue with your wife's affair is that she did it in your house. And did she do it in the Marital Bed? tsk that there is like a deal breaker.

I mean come on. at least have the courtesy to do it outside the family home.

the home is sacred and the marital bed is a sacred place for both the married couple. I think that is a given regardless of religious belief's.

you should talk about this with your wife.


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## lost in Iowa

After reading through the post this morning, it occurred to me that we have not been properly introduced. I have given a lot of information about myself and my situation, so I would like to get to know the people that have been responding to my problems. I suppose I could search every ones email but that would take quite a bit of time.

Just answer the follow questions please.

Are you married and if so how long?

Did you or your wife have an affair during the marriage, and if it was you spouse, what was your reaction and are you still married to them?


If your spouse had the affair how did you deal with it? Counseling, divorce, or what?

Three easy questions, again thank you for answering.

Lost in Iowa


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## lost in Iowa

eastsouth2000 said:


> the biggest issue with your wife's affair is that she did in your house. And did she do it in the Marital Bed? tsk that there is like a deal breaker.
> 
> I mean come on. at least have the courtesy to do it outside that family home.
> 
> the home is sacred and the marital bed is a sacred place for both the married couple. I think that is a given regardless of religious belief's.
> 
> you should talk about this with your wife.


She did not sleep with the om in our bed, it was a spare bed room.


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## lost in Iowa

drifting on said:


> Lost,
> 
> I asked my wife "why did you pick him up, and she said she did not want people talk if they saw his truck outside our house. PLANNED, she was already thinking of not getting caught. Why would people talk if the meeting at your house was INNOCENT?????
> 
> him to call when he gets close to town. When he gets five minutes from the market, he calls her and she tells him to park there, and she will pick him up. WHAT PLAN DID HE MAKE? HOW DID HE TELL HER TO SNEAK HIM IN? SHE DID THAT!!!!
> 
> She had already told her boss she was taking the rest of the day off. She was taking comp. time. SO SHE TALKED TO HIM ON TUESDAY, HIS NORMAL DAY IN TOWN AND SHE TAKES OFF. CONVIENIENT.
> 
> Why she didn't cheat through your entire marriage I don't know. You talk how people change, I agree, people do change, so why did your wife change to cheating? Why did she not learn after the first time it was so bad? Was she going to do this until she had a great outing? These are questions for your wife with your words that people change. I agree people change, I have myself, but you say you want your wife to change back to what she was. That won't happen as she has changed much like yourself. Can she change back? Yes, but she cheated physically and then cheated for four years and wanted that to be physical. I don't think the question is can she change but rather does she want to give up on having the open marriage it looks like she so desperately wants. Again I'll support you Lost, but you need to see the facts and truth, and again your not getting this from your wife. Also don't forget, I am a BS going through reconciliation, I protected my wife as you are, when you can change then answer this post. But if your answers are the same as they are through this thread don't bother typing them out.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes, drifting on, I suppose them talking on the phone and her telling him she was going to pick him up is without a doubt a plan. But you make it sound like they were working and sweating and doing everything in their power to set this up for weeks or months. That is not true, again people are reading in to this more that what is there. Why is my wife different then every other man or wife that I have been reading about. She is a serial cheater because of one EA and PA, she has been doing this for years, but just never caught her. All her remorse and counseling the first time, was part of her plan to continue her slvtty ways, and wants to continue them in an open marriage. Where did open marriage come from, I have never said anything about it. Drifting on just listen for me a second, maybe I am totally wrong here but how about this. My wife of 30 years, depressed about marrying young, special needs child at home, meets a man that gives her attention other than me, for the first time in her life. She likes it and enjoys, it, he is a player and this is his MO, flatter married middle ages woman, and then work on sleeping with them. It works, she does, and then as she is taking him back, she realizes this was a huge mistake. When I come home she confesses everything. We try to work it out, why tell me if she wants to continue sleeping with him. A year later, her depression starts again, and she thinks Lost is in bad shape, I cannot unload my problems on him, so she goes to a singles site, suggested by her boss, its fun, the bosses words and what is the harm, so she starts looking for someone to talk too. The emails and his wife told me this was not about sex hookups but friendship, someone to talk too. And after three years, as they got close it became sexual. Now, I am not excusing any of my wife actions, but that is how I see what happened, my wife and OM wife have confirmed it, and the emails all confirm it. So what should I believe, you or the evidence, my wife and his wife. I do have 36 years of history with her, and I am bias, I admit that, but that is how I think it happened. Serial cheater, no not really, but a depressed middle aged woman that made two horrible choices that could have and may still destroy her marriage. There is no knight in shining armor willing to swoop in and take her off to fantasy land, just a life on trying to get by on $16 dollars an hour. Not a pleasant life to look forward too, and believe me I remind of that consequence each and every day.


----------



## drifting on

lost in Iowa said:


> After reading through the post this morning, it occurred to me that we have not been properly introduced. I have given a lot of information about myself and my situation, so I would like to get to know the people that have been responding to my problems. I suppose I could search every ones email but that would take quite a bit of time.
> 
> Just answer the follow questions please.
> 
> Are you married and if so how long?
> 
> Did you or your wife have an affair during the marriage, and if it was you spouse, what was your reaction and are you still married to them?
> 
> 
> If your spouse had the affair how did you deal with it? Counseling, divorce, or what?
> 
> Three easy questions, again thank you for answering.
> 
> Lost in Iowa




My name is drifting on.

Question 1) I am married (20 years)

Question 2) my spouse had an affair for six months (2010 into ) 2011). We began marriage counseling in August of 2013. My d-day was January 20, 2014. We are reconciling. Not done yet. My initial reaction, shock and disbelief, later anger, then rage, complete destruction including my core.

Question 3) as answered in question two, counseling and reconciling. It's not easy and I still struggle.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lost in Iowa

drifting on said:


> My name is drifting on.
> 
> Question 1) I am married (20 years)
> 
> Question 2) my spouse had an affair for six months (2010 into ) 2011). We began marriage counseling in August of 2013. My d-day was January 20, 2014. We are reconciling. Not done yet. My initial reaction, shock and disbelief, later anger, then rage, complete destruction including my core.
> 
> Question 3) as answered in question two, counseling and reconciling. It's not easy and I still struggle.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Then you and I are in the same boat, you are just further along in the journey, I have known for a little over a month of my wife's EA. I will say I was shocked, when I found her gmail account, shaking as I read the 477 emails between them. If you had asked me two months ago, did my wife and I have a good marriage? I would have said we both have made a poor choice, but overall, she gets depressed and pulls away from our daughter and I at times. But yes, we have a good marriage. I feel hollow about what she did, the first one I could excuse, to poor judgment, just like my EA twenty years before. But her EA has shaken me to my core, and it will be a struggle to fix this, but I am willing to try one or time. Thank you for answering my questions.


----------



## drifting on

lost in Iowa said:


> Yes, drifting on, I suppose them talking on the phone and her telling him she was going to pick him up is without a doubt a plan. But you make it sound like they were working and sweating and doing everything in their power to set this up for weeks or months. That is not true, again people are reading in to this more that what is there. Why is my wife different then every other man or wife that I have been reading about. She is a serial cheater because of one EA and PA, she has been doing this for years, but just never caught her. All her remorse and counseling the first time, was part of her plan to continue her slvtty ways, and wants to continue them in an open marriage. Where did open marriage come from, I have never said anything about it. Drifting on just listen for me a second, maybe I am totally wrong here but how about this. My wife of 30 years, depressed about marrying young, special needs child at home, meets a man that gives her attention other than me, for the first time in her life. She likes it and enjoys, it, he is a player and this is his MO, flatter married middle ages woman, and then work on sleeping with them. It works, she does, and then as she is taking him back, she realizes this was a huge mistake. When I come home she confesses everything. We try to work it out, why tell me if she wants to continue sleeping with him. A year later, her depression starts again, and she thinks Lost is in bad shape, I cannot unload my problems on him, so she goes to a singles site, suggested by her boss, its fun, the bosses words and what is the harm, so she starts looking for someone to talk too. The emails and his wife told me this was not about sex hookups but friendship, someone to talk too. And after three years, as they got close it became sexual. Now, I am not excusing any of my wife actions, but that is how I see what happened, my wife and OM wife have confirmed it, and the emails all confirm it. So what should I believe, you or the evidence, my wife and his wife. I do have 36 years of history with her, and I am bias, I admit that, but that is how I think it happened. Serial cheater, no not really, but a depressed middle aged woman that made two horrible choices that could have and may still destroy her marriage. There is no knight in shining armor willing to swoop in and take her off to fantasy land, just a life on trying to get by on $16 dollars an hour. Not a pleasant life to look forward too, and believe me I remind of that consequence each and every day.




Lost in Iowa,

Look what you posted above, the first time in this entire thread you stopped protecting her. How am I or anyone else to help you if you read our responses and protect her. You actually still did above but you got what I was telling you. I'm not about beating people up on here, and I'm mad that I treated you the way I did, but your first step to recovery is to realize what your wife has really done. In order to do that I had to get you to see what's happening. 

Your wife did plan this, don't rug sweep again, you know how well that went. But for your wife to recover she will need to go back to her first affair. Why she began a second affair, why she met him, why she is destroying her marriage and you. She needs to have the depression treated, she needs to come to you, don't have her go to that crack pot boss of hers again. You don't send a depressed person who has had an affair to a dating site looking for a pen pal, period. I have to run now, but later tonight if I have time I will be back. Don't revert back to your old self and start protecting her again. 

P.S. one suggestion I have is to go back and read bandit.45 posts again, he has been dead on if you can remove yourself like you did here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lost in Iowa

drifting on said:


> Lost in Iowa,
> 
> Look what you posted above, the first time in this entire thread you stopped protecting her. How am I or anyone else to help you if you read our responses and protect her. You actually still did above but you got what I was telling you. I'm not about beating people up on here, and I'm mad that I treated you the way I did, but your first step to recovery is to realize what your wife has really done. In order to do that I had to get you to see what's happening.
> 
> Your wife did plan this, don't rug sweep again, you know how well that went. But for your wife to recover she will need to go back to her first affair. Why she began a second affair, why she met him, why she is destroying her marriage and you. She needs to have the depression treated, she needs to come to you, don't have her go to that crack pot boss of hers again. You don't send a depressed person who has had an affair to a dating site looking for a pen pal, period. I have to run now, but later tonight if I have time I will be back. Don't revert back to your old self and start protecting her again.
> 
> P.S. one suggestion I have is to go back and read bandit.45 posts again, he has been dead on if you can remove yourself like you did here.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You may be right about Bandit, but to me in my current state, he is just too blunt, and I do not need to hear that now. He may be right, he may be wrong, but I really do not need to hear sarcastic remarks now, downgrading myself or my wife.

When I read what I just wrote, I really do not see any difference than my OP, maybe more information, but like I have said, I am bias. I want this marriage to work out. Yes, her boss is a crack pot, she is using the site to meet and sleep with other man. I am sure she would love for my wife to do the same thing. That's is why she needs to rebuild those walls around her to not fall under that desire. I know she is struggling with this, going through withdrawal of not talking to the OM. That is normal, from what I have read, so far she has not emailed him again, and she said each day it gets easier, but she in not over him yet. On average it takes 3 to 6 months to stop thinking about the affair partner, unless the affair couple have decided to end it own their own. This would still be going on, if I had not discovered her other email account. I will say, there are times, I wish I never had, what is the saying, ignorance is blessed? She would have never left me for him, and I would not be going through this heart break. She never would have told me, and taken her EA to her grave. Now since I know, its a chance to rebuild our marriage and make it affair proof.


----------



## bfree

lost in Iowa said:


> After reading through the post this morning, it occurred to me that we have not been properly introduced. I have given a lot of information about myself and my situation, so I would like to get to know the people that have been responding to my problems. I suppose I could search every ones email but that would take quite a bit of time.
> 
> Just answer the follow questions please.
> 
> Are you married and if so how long?
> 
> *Married for over 20 years.*
> 
> Did you or your wife have an affair during the marriage, and if it was you spouse, what was your reaction and are you still married to them?
> 
> *My first wife cheated on me. I was devastated and inconsolable. We divorced. I fell apart and for a few years I abused alcohol, drugs and slept with as many women as I could. Eventually I cleaned up and smartened up.*
> 
> If your spouse had the affair how did you deal with it? Counseling, divorce, or what?
> 
> *I wanted to reconcile, she didn't. Turns out that's the nicest thing she ever did for me.*
> 
> Three easy questions, again thank you for answering.
> 
> *Your welcome.*
> 
> Lost in Iowa


One thing that I simply must say. Your wife doesn't need to give you the old song and dance. You seem to be stepping to her tune already. Don't you find it interesting that virtually everyone is in agreement on that point? Why do you find the need to defend your cheating wife to us? We are only internet strangers. Why should you care what we think? Could it be because we have all amassed a knowledge that you lack but need? Maybe your time would be better spent absorbing all this free insight born from painful experiences instead of trying to rationalize away your wife's behavior. Or you could always change your user name to _lost in excuses_ and see how that works out.


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## lost in Iowa

bfree said:


> One thing that I simply must say. Your wife doesn't need to give you the old song and dance. You seem to be stepping to her tune already. Don't you find it interesting that virtually everyone is in agreement on that point? Why do you find the need to defend your cheating wife to us? We are only internet strangers. Why should you care what we think? Could it be because we have all amassed a knowledge that you lack but need? Maybe your time would be better spent absorbing all this free insight born from painful experiences instead of trying to rationalize away your wife's behavior. Or you could always change your user name to _lost in excuses_ and see how that works out.


To me, if I can not understand the why and how of a problem, how can I address it? I know the how they did it, now I am working on the why. I guess I just get tired of the others discounting the knowledge that I have gained and living with her for 36 years. I am always willing to listen to new knowledge and constructive criticism, but I will not the cheap shots or sarcastic remarks. Why do you care, some truly do, others just like to make fun of others, and some do not care at all, just like to sit, comment and hope for a wreck and then rub it in. For most there is no malaise, but for others here, there is. Those few were hurt by their spouse and see it as their goal in life to never allow this to happen to another spouse as long as they are here. They see anyone that does not follow their advise to the letter as weak, and willing to come crying back to their cheating spouse. I am neither, but in their mind, you either kick her ass to the street and she comes begging to take her back or you are a wuss. That is just the way they look at life, everything is half empty, I look at the facts that I have before me, and then make a calculated decision based on those facts. I also know that I am bias, and try to factor that in.


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## bfree

Lil, what you need to understand and more to the point accept is that for 36 years you never really knew your wife did you? The hardest thing for all BS's to accept is that the person they thought they knew was nothing more than a construct; a combination of her mask and your rose colored glasses. She was never the person she presented herself to be. None of us truly are unless/until we have delved so deep into our psyches through introspection that we no longer need the facade. And your vision of her was and still is clouded. Before she cheated did you think she was capable of infidelity? I'd bet she didn't either. But she proved the both of you wrong didn't she? The reason your 36 years counts for very little right now is because the two of you have been irrevocably changed by her actions...and yours in response. She isn't the woman you married. Frankly she never was who you thought she was. And you aren't the man you were before her affairs. You marriage died the day she broke the contract. Now the two of you, the new you and the new her have to work together to build a new marriage, a new union. And you cannot do it together if you are not both meeting your respective responsibilities. She can't be responsible if you are making excuses for her.


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## sapientia

You're too willing to R, IMO, before working through the pain of the betrayal. Are you naturally an emotionally closed person? That could be some of the challenge in your marriage.

There's a lot of unspoken, justified anger in your posts that you aren't facing. I think Drifting can help you with.


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## bfree

A marriage is only as strong as the two people in it. If your wife cannot stand on her own two feet how strong will your marriage be? As for your "desire" for reconciliation let me ask you this. What has more value - something that was given to you or something you had to work for and struggle to achieve?


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## lost in Iowa

sapientia said:


> You're too willing to R, IMO, before working through the pain of the betrayal. Are you naturally an emotionally closed person? That could be some of the challenge in your marriage.
> 
> There's a lot of unspoken, justified anger in your posts that you aren't facing. I think Drifting can help you with.


No I am not an emotional person, the people that do not know me would say iowa is the most cold hearted calculating person you will ever meet, he is brutally honest to a fault, I have no tact, I have been told. I am none of those things, really kind of shy in private, and not like outgoing at all. I have been told by many, that when I first met you, you were cold and distant, but since I have gotten to know you, you never shut up. That is just the way I am.


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## sapientia

Yet you love your wife deeply. Or is it more that you dislike change? My ex was a brilliant aspie but very low EQ. Marriage was more a habit to him than a source of happiness. Perhaps you are the same and your wife feels this. There is a desperation about her encounters in your posts that suggest she may also love you, but she definitely feels the lack of... something in your marriage.

In any case, at your age, you are who you are. So I don't think posting about all the things you could do to make your wife feel more emotionally connected to you will help. I wish I had better answers for you. It seems that Drifting can best relate.


----------



## lost in Iowa

sapientia said:


> Yet you love your wife deeply. Or is it more that you dislike change? My ex was a brilliant aspie but very low EQ. Marriage was more a habit to him than a source of happiness. Perhaps you are the same and your wife feels this. There is a desperation about her encounters in your posts that suggest she may also love you, but she definitely feels the lack of... something in your marriage.
> 
> In any case, at your age, you are who you are. So I don't think posting about all the things you could do to make your wife feel more emotionally connected to you will help. I wish I had better answers for you. It seems that Drifting can best relate.


I am sorry about your husband, you are wondering if I am like your husband? No, I would say I am not, but you are inferring that I am, because your husband was. See, that is my problem with this board, I have been accused at looking at this situation through rose colored glasses of 36 years of marriage. I agree, I do, but you are also looking at my situation through the glasses of what you and husband went through. It may be same, it may not, but that is also coloring your view. I want to stay married to my wife because I still love her, after all she has done, I still want to be with her. That is not a sign of weakness, but of strength. That is what is wrong with this country, we want to cut and run at the first sign of trouble. Now if this was the first five years of marriage, I was 30 or so, no kids. I divorce her and go on with my life. At 53, four kids, would like to retire in 5 years, my bias says, see if you can work this out. My wife says she is willing to do what ever I ask, short of telling our sons right now. I understand her reason more today than yesterday. The book I am reading says you should never bring adult children into an affair that you are trying to recover from, and especially ask them to keep it a secret from their spouse or siblings. I am guilty of both, telling my daughter and then having her swear she will tell no one, not even her husband. Someday soon that fence between our daughter, my wife and myself will have to be mended. It will not be easy, but it must be done. But the first priority is my wife and myself.


----------



## lost in Iowa

bfree said:


> A marriage is only as strong as the two people in it. If your wife cannot stand on her own two feet how strong will your marriage be? As for your "desire" for reconciliation let me ask you this. What has more value - something that was given to you or something you had to work for and struggle to achieve?


Something that you work you ass of to achieve. I am working mine off now, and finally so is my wife. Could it be a false recovery, am I just a fool, and she is just saying those things to go back to her cheating ways. I guess she could. But she could also be the kind loving woman that I married 36 years ago, and sees what she has done is beyond foolish and regrets it. If she could she would take it back. Right now, we do not know, we are one month into recovery. She is doing and saying exactly what a person in recovery should be doing. Cutting off all contact with the OM, totally transparent on all calls, emails and texts, going to counseling to work on her problems.


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## Mr Blunt

> Lost in Iowa
> 
> Just answer the follow questions please.
> 
> Are you married and if so how long?


*I am married and have a total of over 40 years married*




> Did you or your wife have an affair during the marriage, and if it was you spouse, what was your reaction and are you still married to them?


My wife had an EA then a PA affair. I divorced her within 5 months of her telling me that she was interested (EA) in another man. She did not leave the home and I tried to help her because she has low self-esteem; flowers, dates, compliments, etc. She tried to break away from her emotional trap she allowed to happen but failed and told me, after 10 months, that she was going to move into his apartment. I stopped being, Mr.-let-me-help-you, and all hell broke loose as she had pushed me too far. I made her tell the children then threw the car keys at her face but missed. She left to go to his apartment and came back 12 hours later crawling, crying, terrified, and destroyed. I asked how did she like it? She said terrible as she was trembling and backing away from me as if I was going to stab her. 

She asked if she could come back into the house and I said she could but for her not to touch me. I was not going to play spy-cop and had decided that I was going to live my life for me and my children only. She wanted me to marry her, at times with tears, but I waited for over 4 years and was then convinced that she was remorseful and strong enough to act like a good wife, and that I should impart some grace and forgiveness as God has imparted to me, so I remarried her in 1992. 

I was weakened and compromised for the first 10 months but my self-respect improved after drawing on my faith, family, and self changes, then realized that I am a good man and am above average. I am grateful to God that I am strong enough that I can be fine with her or without her. My children adore me and I think highly of myself, not conceited but I have a healthy self-esteem. My wife and I have a good relationship but not a great one. A few things were lost permanently with betrayal but you can build in other areas to make them better.







> If your spouse had the affair how did you deal with it? Counseling, divorce, or what?


Tried counseling, then divorced, played Mr.-fix-it-man, then got to the point that putting her out of my life was best for me. Worked on me to improve my areas that I needrd to improve in; this was extremely beneficial in the years during and after the affair. I have a very good life and am very grateful to God and family.


*I tell you the above in hopes that it may help you.*


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## turnera

I'm married 35 years. Neither of us has ever cheated, that I know of. The man I was engaged to before my husband, however, I discovered had been cheating on me the whole three years we were together; he even used my car to take her around. The only reason I found out was he had an accident in my car - with her IN it! And yes, I did break up with him for it.


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## sapientia

You misunderstood my post, Iowa. I'm not at all sorry about my divorce. My ex and I get along better now than we did in the last decade of our marriage. We are excellent parents and our son is thriving in each of our quite happy homes. We were together almost 20 years. Our divorce, which was a most civil one, was the best decision we made, other than having our son.  But my ex, at the time, was unhappy for a long time but didn't know what to do about it. I did. This wasn't a snap decision, btw. It took us a good 5 years to reach this conclusion.

I suppose we could have found other people to fill our respective needs, to make the marriage work. But we were honest with each other about our mutual needs, did counselling, and finally decided that we made better co-parents than partners. We are both skilled professionals, so letting go of that "divorce is failure" recording took a long time to resolve.

It seems to me that your wife seeks something more than you can give her. You can try to contort yourselves to your current situation, or try something different. Sharing my story was more to give you hope that, sometimes, letting each other go to find happiness is the right answer.

Again, I don't know you or your wife so perhaps it is possible for you to both change and give each other what you need to be loyal. My experience says people don't fundamentally change who they are as adults, but it is possible. Perhaps you will be one of the rare few to succeed. 

Best,
Sapi


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## eric1

I think you're concentrating too much on the divorce aspect of consequences. If she says she isn't going to cheat again, has broken your trust a number of times and you want to reconcile, wouldn't a post-nuptial contract be the course of action?


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## aine

lost in Iowa said:


> Yes, drifting on, I suppose them talking on the phone and her telling him she was going to pick him up is without a doubt a plan. But you make it sound like they were working and sweating and doing everything in their power to set this up for weeks or months. That is not true, again people are reading in to this more that what is there. Why is my wife different then every other man or wife that I have been reading about. She is a serial cheater because of one EA and PA, she has been doing this for years, but just never caught her. All her remorse and counseling the first time, was part of her plan to continue her slvtty ways, and wants to continue them in an open marriage. Where did open marriage come from, I have never said anything about it. Drifting on just listen for me a second, maybe I am totally wrong here but how about this. My wife of 30 years, depressed about marrying young, special needs child at home, meets a man that gives her attention other than me, for the first time in her life. She likes it and enjoys, it, he is a player and this is his MO, flatter married middle ages woman, and then work on sleeping with them. It works, she does, and then as she is taking him back, she realizes this was a huge mistake. When I come home she confesses everything. We try to work it out, why tell me if she wants to continue sleeping with him. A year later, her depression starts again, and she thinks Lost is in bad shape, I cannot unload my problems on him, so she goes to a singles site, suggested by her boss, its fun, the bosses words and what is the harm, so she starts looking for someone to talk too. The emails and his wife told me this was not about sex hookups but friendship, someone to talk too. And after three years, as they got close it became sexual. Now, I am not excusing any of my wife actions, but that is how I see what happened, my wife and OM wife have confirmed it, and the emails all confirm it. So what should I believe, you or the evidence, my wife and his wife. I do have 36 years of history with her, and I am bias, I admit that, but that is how I think it happened. Serial cheater, no not really, but a depressed middle aged woman that made two horrible choices that could have and may still destroy her marriage. There is no knight in shining armor willing to swoop in and take her off to fantasy land, just a life on trying to get by on $16 dollars an hour. Not a pleasant life to look forward too, and believe me I remind of that consequence each and every day.


I am sorry Lost but it is very clear from all the justifications and minimization you make for your wife's behavior that I am afraid your mind is made up to let her do whatever she likes, pull any s*** she wants to and you will just roll over and forgive her.

I am not saying there is anything wrong with that (in some ways it is noble) and that is your prerogative, but do not expect people in TAM to simply aid you in this path by telling you want you want to hear. Your wife has used the excuse of you not being there, stress of child, etc, NONE of these excuses make cheating OK, period. 
You obviously have a different mind set compared to the majority here. If you can live with that, then accept it and move on with your wife till the next cheating crisis happens, it is that simple.


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## itbeme

that was not fair. You Know he wants to stay in the marriage. From what I have gleaned is they are both working towards R.


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## itbeme

So sorry. My last comment was @Tobyboy. Not quite sure what to do to put their message in.


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## lost in Iowa

aine said:


> I am sorry Lost but it is very clear from all the justifications and minimization you make for your wife's behavior that I am afraid your mind is made up to let her do whatever she likes, pull any s*** she wants to and you will just roll over and forgive her.
> 
> I am not saying there is anything wrong with that (in some ways it is noble) and that is your prerogative, but do not expect people in TAM to simply aid you in this path by telling you want you want to hear. Your wife has used the excuse of you not being there, stress of child, etc, NONE of these excuses make cheating OK, period.
> You obviously have a different mind set compared to the majority here. If you can live with that, then accept it and move on with your wife till the next cheating crisis happens, it is that simple.


I gather from your post, you are in the **** her throw her to the curb group. If I do not do as you say, she will just continue to run over me, and I must like it or I would man up and put and end to it. None of this is true, I guess I do have a different mind set from the divorce her and go on with my life crowd. am I wrong thinking that this site is for married people, and doing everything to make a marriage work. Minimize and justification, as you see it, is not what I am doing here. But everyone has a right to their opinion. As of right now, I will continue to recovery. Tonight my wife said she is afraid of ****ing this up, by saying the wrong thing. I told her that only one thing will cause me to divorce her, and that is for her to go back to her old ways. Would you please answer my three questions on marriage and affairs?


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## Nucking Futs

lost in Iowa said:


> I gather from your post, you are in the **** her through her to the curb group. If I do not do as you say, she will just continue to run over me, and I must like it or I would man up and put and end to it. None of this is true, I guess I do have a different mind set from the divorce her and go on with my life crowd. I just I am wrong thinking that this site is for married people, and doing everything to make a marriage work. Minimize and justification, as you see it, is not what I am doing here. But everyone has a right to their opinion. As of right now, I will continue to recovery. Tonight my wife said she is afraid of ****ing this up, by saying the wrong thing. I told her that only one thing will cause me to divorce her, and that is for her to go back to her old ways. Would you please answer my three questions on marriage and affairs?


I've mostly stayed on the sideline of this thread. You're hostile to the people trying to help you and defensive of the person who cheated on you twice. It's clear from your responses here that you're not going to learn from other peoples experiences, you're going to have to learn the hard way. You're not the first and you won't be the last. 

Believe it or not, when you catch her cheating the next time you'll be welcome back here again. And if that time you react to her the same as this time, you'll still be welcome back here the time after that. There will be users here ready to help you no matter how many times it takes.

Good luck.


----------



## Thor

lost in Iowa said:


> After reading through the post this morning, it occurred to me that we have not been properly introduced. I have given a lot of information about myself and my situation, so I would like to get to know the people that have been responding to my problems. I suppose I could search every ones email but that would take quite a bit of time.
> 
> Just answer the follow questions please.
> 
> Are you married and if so how long?
> 
> Did you or your wife have an affair during the marriage, and if it was you spouse, what was your reaction and are you still married to them?
> 
> 
> If your spouse had the affair how did you deal with it? Counseling, divorce, or what?
> 
> Three easy questions, again thank you for answering.
> 
> Lost in Iowa



33+ years.

Yes, I believe she has had several affairs, but I did not go into spy mode in time. The first was likely early in our marriage. The second was apparently a lesbian affair, or her lesbian coworker was providing cover for my wife to have an affair with another man. Approximately 6 or 7 years ago there was likely one or even 2 affairs.

In all but the most recent I was at first disbelieving. With small children in the house, my focus was on improving the marriage. This was the "Nice" her back strategy, and it failed. The last one I set out to discover any evidence but it seemed to be over by then. I did find one smoking gun a few months after that but it may have been there for several months.

After exhausting every search I could think of, electronically and physically, I asked her if there had ever been any affairs of any kind with either men or women. This was per the advice of a counselor the way I approached my wife. I told her we could work through anything as long as it was out in the open. I also told her anything I found out about after this point from anyone other than her would be an instant divorce. She denied anything had ever happened.

The destruction of trust from the various events I know about have severely poisoned the marriage.


----------



## lost in Iowa

Nucking Futs said:


> I've mostly stayed on the sideline of this thread. You're hostile to the people trying to help you and defensive of the person who cheated on you twice. It's clear from your responses here that you're not going to learn from other peoples experiences, you're going to have to learn the hard way. You're not the first and you won't be the last.
> 
> Believe it or not, when you catch her cheating the next time you'll be welcome back here again. And if that time you react to her the same as this time, you'll still be welcome back here the time after that. There will be users here ready to help you no matter how many times it takes.
> 
> Good luck.


Sure I am going to defend my wife, not her choices, but her yes, I will always do that as long as she is my wife. I have taken a lot of the advise of people on this board. Yes, I have ignored the throwing to the curb crowd. They do not want us to recover, they want to see me divorce her and move on. For every happy divorcee I know, I can think of two or three times that many that say it was a mistake. I believe that my wife will change, I think that, if I knew she would cheat again, I would leave in a second. But right now, I think she will not. Enough OK, we go to counseling tomorrow again. This is going to be a long process, come back and ask me how we are doing in a year or two. Hindsight is always 20/20, but no one knows the future.


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## lost in Iowa

Thor said:


> 33+ years.
> 
> Yes, I believe she has had several affairs, but I did not go into spy mode in time. The first was likely early in our marriage. The second was apparently a lesbian affair, or her lesbian coworker was providing cover for my wife to have an affair with another man. Approximately 6 or 7 years ago there was likely one or even 2 affairs.
> 
> In all but the most recent I was at first disbelieving. With small children in the house, my focus was on improving the marriage. This was the "Nice" her back strategy, and it failed. The last one I set out to discover any evidence but it seemed to be over by then. I did find one smoking gun a few months after that but it may have been there for several months.
> 
> After exhausting every search I could think of, electronically and physically, I asked her if there had ever been any affairs of any kind with either men or women. This was per the advice of a counselor the way I approached my wife. I told her we could work through anything as long as it was out in the open. I also told her anything I found out about after this point from anyone other than her would be an instant divorce. She denied anything had ever happened.
> 
> The destruction of trust from the various events I know about have severely poisoned the marriage.


I am sorry your wife put you through all the pain. Would you have tried to make the marriage work, if she had been truthful and told you everything you asked instead of denying it all and you finding out the truth later?


----------



## lost in Iowa

Mr Blunt said:


> *I am married and have a total of over 40 years married*
> 
> 
> 
> My wife had an EA then a PA affair. I divorced her within 5 months of her telling me that she was interested (EA) in another man. She did not leave the home and I tried to help her because she has low self-esteem; flowers, dates, compliments, etc. She tried to break away from her emotional trap she allowed to happen but failed and told me, after 10 months, that she was going to move into his apartment. I stopped being, Mr.-let-me-help-you, and all hell broke loose as she had pushed me too far. I made her tell the children then threw the car keys at her face but missed. She left to go to his apartment and came back 12 hours later crawling, crying, terrified, and destroyed. I asked how did she like it? She said terrible as she was trembling and backing away from me as if I was going to stab her.
> 
> She asked if she could come back into the house and I said she could but for her not to touch me. I was not going to play spy-cop and had decided that I was going to live my life for me and my children only. She wanted me to marry her, at times with tears, but I waited for over 4 years and was then convinced that she was remorseful and strong enough to act like a good wife, and that I should impart some grace and forgiveness as God has imparted to me, so I remarried her in 1992.
> 
> I was weakened and compromised for the first 10 months but my self-respect improved after drawing on my faith, family, and self changes, then realized that I am a good man and am above average. I am grateful to God that I am strong enough that I can be fine with her or without her. My children adore me and I think highly of myself, not conceited but I have a healthy self-esteem. My wife and I have a good relationship but not a great one. A few things were lost permanently with betrayal but you can build in other areas to make them better.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tried counseling, then divorced, played Mr.-fix-it-man, then got to the point that putting her out of my life was best for me. Worked on me to improve my areas that I needrd to improve in; this was extremely beneficial in the years during and after the affair. I have a very good life and am very grateful to God and family.
> 
> 
> *I tell you the above in hopes that it may help you.*


Thank you, if we end up divorcing because she goes back to her old ways, I hope I will end up as fortunate as you have. God Bless you and your family.


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## Thor

lost in Iowa said:


> I am sorry your wife put you through all the pain. Would you have tried to make the marriage work, if she had been truthful and told you everything you asked instead of denying it all and you finding out the truth later?


Yes, at that time I wanted to save the marriage. But now if I find proof of an affair we are done. All I have is circumstantial evidence. Some is pretty weak, but the more recent likely affair has some pretty strong smoking guns. But at this age with all the severe financial consequences of divorce I can't bring myself to divorce just based on strong suspicions.


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## drifting on

Lost in Iowa

A little about me, my wife had a six month affair that began in the summer of 2010 and ended in January 2011. I suspected an affair but could never find that smoking gun evidence. Fast forward to April 2013. We go to a hotel for our anniversary. We went shopping and returned to our hotel, as I parked I noticed an elderly couple two spots over having sex. For whatever reason I felt like a horse just kicked me in the gut. It was at that moment I knew my wife cheated. 

I never let my wife know anything was bothering me. I investigated everything for the next two months. Nothing. I was going crazy and became more depressed. By August I was suicidal and told my wife to find a MC. She did and we began going, still no confession, nothing to be found. In January of 2014 I wanted a divorce. Then I found one email on her cell phone, all it said was "are you still enjoying". The email was dated October 2010. My wife lied through almost five months of therapy. She watched me crash and burn and could have saved me, but no, me not knowing was what was important to her. Protecting herself and her OM was her objective, to hell with me, she just lied for two and a half years. 

I am reconciling, much to the chagrin from some posters here, but that is my choice as it is yours. But I know what my wife did, my eyes were ripped open, and if I didn't find TAM I'd be dead or still wondering. I read other threads, I learned, and I opened my eyes to see my wife for what she is. I can't say was, as I don't know if we will make it, but for now she is doing the heavy lifting. 

That's the difference between us, I didn't protect my wife and what I THOUGHT she was. At my wedding she was the most beautiful, funny, virtuous person I had ever met. She can strive for that once again, but my thoughts have changed. I am no longer the person I thought I was, my wife is no longer what she thought she was, we were changed by infidelity as will you. 

Lost, you need to see your wife for what she is, not what you thought she is. While she may not have planned for months about meeting OM 1 she did still plan it. That's what's important, she planned it, and she thought nothing of you or her marriage. Don't even waste my time that she thought of you and her marriage, if she did she wouldn't have cheated. Period. Truthfully Lost, you are stronger then I, I wouldn't have been able to get past the "not what I hoped for" comment. As I said before, oh, it wasn't what I hoped for so it's ok". That was her thinking, that was her justifying what she did in her head. And if she were remorseful she wouldn't offer to leave, she would stay to comfort you, talk to you, recognize your pain. But instead she offered to leave so it's easier on her! Not you, HER. 

Now here is where you will say I'm being mean and sarcastic. But instead it's what I see of your wife. She was so remorseful, so regretful so sorry, that she goes to a dating site to find a pen pal. Now Lost, if you believe this, Iowa doesn't grow corn. She wasn't remorseful, regretful, and maybe a little sorry, but she then finds an OM. Gets one really far away so she will never meet him. Yeah, that worked well didn't it? She planned that too but you say you have emails proving otherwise. So let me ask you a question, how did OM 2 know where she would be? Think about that before you answer. 

Lost, your wife hid this OM for four years and didn't have sex because the OM said no. So I honestly ask you, how remorseful, regretful, and sorry was she after OM 1? Now I believe everyone makes bad choices, I believe everyone can change, I did, you did, my wife and your wife did, but was that change for the better? In your case and mine yes, in our wives, no. You changed for the better after an EA, I changed for the better by being a human being, and our wives changed into liars and cheats. 

Now my wife has changed, for you it's too early to tell but maybe she can. If you are willing to ride this out and reconcile your marriage then that's great. If you divorce that's great too. I said I would support your decision, it is your life and not mine or anyone else's. Just don't do what you did after the first affair. Work through this, make her do the heavy lifting, and fix your part of the marriage. The affairs are on her, no excuses, NONE, that includes depression and your special needs child. 

You are living in the same house, same responsibilities as her. Yes it's very difficult to have a special needs child, but it's not the excuse. Nor is a mid life crisis, that you treated her bad or depression, get help if you need it. Google a depression hotline and see how many results there are. Help is everywhere, another man is not help. 

There are so many red flags put up by both of you, I suggest IC for you both and then MC. You also talked about how people say you are cold, but then you say they think you are nice and won't stay quiet. How well does your wife know you? Obviously very well, and twice now she has taken advantage of that very niceness. 

I'm not saying you have to be mean to her, I respect your views on marriage, but know what you are up against. As for the daughter that you told, have her tell her husband, don't make her carry this baggage alone. Don't promote keeping secrets in a marriage as you are doing now, I think you know secrets in a marriage are quite devastating. 

Just like you I had my wife on a pedestal, treated her nicely, even though I'm fallible. But you must take her off the pedestal, you must hold her accountable, and I know you will because anger is right around the corner from you. So if you want to reconcile then do it, if you want to divorce then do if, but either way you hold her accountable for her poor choices, lack of boundaries, and her levels of deception. Best of luck to you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## drifting on

One other suggestion, stop saying it was a mistake, she chose to do all this damage. A mistake is putting kerosene in a gasoline can, forgetting and then filling your lawn mower. That's a mistake, an addition or subtraction mistake in your checkbook is a mistake, but having sex with another person IS A CHOICE, NOT A MISTAKE!!!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sapientia

Nucking Futs said:


> I've mostly stayed on the sideline of this thread. You're hostile to the people trying to help you and defensive of the person who cheated on you twice.


He is hostile but I don't take it personally. He's hurt and angry with her, not with us, but he seems too emotionally controlled to express it. It will come out, it always does.

@ Drifting On - I understand your point about choice, but I disagree that it wasn't also a mistake. Bad choices are mistakes. Said differently: Her cheating was a bad choice and a mistake that she should still take responsibility for. What it wasn't was an accident, which usually means circumstances outside of one's control.

Mistake  - an error in action, calculation, opinion, or judgment *caused by poor reasoning, or carelessness*

Accident  - an undesirable or unfortunate happening that *occurs unintentionally* and usually results in harm, injury, damage, or loss

fwiw.


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## drifting on

sapientia said:


> He is hostile but I don't take it personally. He's hurt and angry with her, not with us, but he seems too emotionally controlled to express it. It will come out, it always does.



Couldn't agree more with either of you here. He is in pain, disbelief, and in need of support. I remember all too well how he is feeling and I think I would react as Lost is. It's so very hard to imagine just how cruel your spouse has been treating you when you discover infidelity. It's mind boggling to me that I protected my wife after admitting to lying in therapy for five months. Our therapist wanted to slap me on the face, actually admitted that to me, which now makes me chuckle. I was naive!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sapientia

I went through a similar epiphany with my counsellor. Not about cheating, since there wasn't any, but about a whole lot of other things I was tolerating and shouldn't have.

Live forever, learn everything.


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## drifting on

sapientia said:


> He is hostile but I don't take it personally. He's hurt and angry with her, not with us, but he seems too emotionally controlled to express it. It will come out, it always does.
> 
> @ Drifting On - I understand your point about choice, but I disagree that it wasn't also a mistake. Bad choices are mistakes. Said differently: Her cheating was a bad choice and a mistake that she should still take responsibility for. What it wasn't was an accident, which usually means circumstances outside of one's control.
> 
> Mistake  - an error in action, calculation, opinion, or judgment *caused by poor reasoning, or carelessness*
> 
> Accident  - an undesirable or unfortunate happening that *occurs unintentionally* and usually results in harm, injury, damage, or loss
> 
> fwiw.



I don't like it but its hard to argue the dictionary. Sarcastically saying, after this post I go back to my way of thinking. But for this post you are right. Sure is tough to admit that I'm mistaken on this!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sapientia

LOL, I'm really not a word nerd. I suspect the OP may be the sort to appreciate the distinction and might possibly misunderstand our posts without clarification. As an academic, let's just say I've seen more than my share of arguments over a lack of defining terms. Language trips some people up in their thinking.


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## aine

lost in Iowa said:


> I gather from your post, you are in the **** her throw her to the curb group. If I do not do as you say, she will just continue to run over me, and I must like it or I would man up and put and end to it. None of this is true, I guess I do have a different mind set from the divorce her and go on with my life crowd. am I wrong thinking that this site is for married people, and doing everything to make a marriage work. Minimize and justification, as you see it, is not what I am doing here. But everyone has a right to their opinion. As of right now, I will continue to recovery. Tonight my wife said she is afraid of ****ing this up, by saying the wrong thing. I told her that only one thing will cause me to divorce her, and that is for her to go back to her old ways. Would you please answer my three questions on marriage and affairs?


Lost, m H cheated on me after i had just given birth to our second child and I stayed and we worked it out. We have gone through a rocky patch since and i had my suspicions but no concrete evidence. If I had the evidence, as you have i would not work it out the second time. Personally, I think marriage is very hard work, there are cycles of good and bad times but when your partner disrespects you so much to think that you will keep taking their infidelity then that is a different ball game. Of course the BS may contribute to the situation but that is absolutely no excuse for cheating.

To me both partners must learn from the infidelity to ensure it does not happen again, you cannot expect to keep doing the same thing and get different results, it does not work. 
There are some people in this world who are the takers (users) and others who are the givers and if the latter choose to accept their lot in life, so be it but to my mind, you deserve more. 
If you wife is a reformed character, then that is really wonderful and I hope for your sake she stays that way.


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## manfromlamancha

lost in Iowa said:


> May I ask, how do you know she was not remorseful, that she is playing me? She never loved me and only stays because she knows I will not force her to leave. So according to you, my wife's plan is to lay low, let this quiet down and then either pick up her EA affair, or go after someone else. That she will never stop what she is doing because she finds it exciting. Then how does anyone ever change their behavior? How do people that are alcoholics stop drinking, how do drug addicts stop their drug usage and go on to have normal lives. Is it easy, no, but they can change, the key, is wanting to change. I told myself after my Ea, I will never do this again, I have been true to my commitment for twenty years. People do change they just have to want to change. My wife says she does, if we are to stay together, she must.
> 
> This is the bias that I am talking about, I mentioned in an earlier thread about how my wife feels sometimes like our special needs daughter is a ball and chain, after I wrote that, someone wanted to know how I did not through her out on the street? I feel the same way sometimes, it is a ball and chain, every parent of a handicapped child will say the same thing. People love to read things on sites like this, and according to their bias or what happened to them, they say you should do this and only this, or you are wrong. Couples do recover from affairs, it happens everyday, they both have to want the marriage, more than anything else. That is what the book on affairs is teaching me, couples that both want the marriage can save the marriage and make it better and stronger than ever. If either one does not, then the marriage will not survive. My wife has told me, and her counseling, I heard her say it, she want to remain my wife and stop what she has been doing. So do I.



Feeling that one's child is a ball and chain is no reason to go out and fvck another guy! Not loving and disrespecting one's husband is!

I did not say she feels no remorse - I said she feels no remorse at hurting you - she does feel remorse that she gets caught - again and again.

Your wife tells you what you want to hear - nothing more nothing less. And you enable her to carry on.

You came to this forum and said you were not sure what to do and asked for advice. Well it seems that you DO KNOW what to do and are doing it despite any advice you need.

As someone else said, we will still be here when she does it again and you need help (so don't feel bad about coming here again when she does this).

I can see no reason for her to stay with you other than the security of a family and your financial support.


Its quite simple - she enjoys engaging in illicit activity with other men and fvcking them - you enable it and feel bad that you are enabling it. And then you take it out on others here who are pointing this out to you to help you. Yes it may be based on their own experiences of infidelity but that in itself is worth pure gold. They have experienced it !


How do I know that she does not love you - because she is constantly trying to fvck other men.

How do I know that she feels no remorse about hurting you - because she does it again and again.

How do I know she will do this again - because she has faced no consequences for doing it in the past.


See, the answers to your questions are quite simple and self evident.


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## drifting on

Lost in Iowa

You are saying that we don't know you and your wife, therefore how do we know what is really happening. Truth is we are basing our comments and advice on what has happened to us and others. You call that bias, that we are all jaded that its worse, that if a man and woman go to lunch, it's an affair. It's really not that way, although I will say if they went to lunch, watch out!! Why you ask, that's how my wife's affair started. Now obviously a male and female can go to lunch together and it may be nothing. 

So when posters come here and give advice you go to your crutch and call it bias. So now ask yourself this, is it bias or you protecting your wife? Protecting your wife is noble, I get it, I protect mine every minute of every day. In fact I believe my wife was called a tramp or *****, I did not refute that comment. Does that mean I don't protect my wife? No, it means I can overlook the word used and seek out the advice. I can take the advice to heart or dismiss it if it has no bearing on my situation. I'm not here to get into an argument, I get into plenty each day, I came here for healing, and to help those who could use support. 

Since you say we don't know you why does it seem you take everything to heart? Yes posters say things I don't like, I'll get mad, I'll even respond, but I'm not hostile. If you want help great, if you don't great, but drop the hostile part and it will be much easier. As for the bias part, it's not bias, it's a pattern. If you had come here after your wife's first affair and dealt with it the way you did, we would say see you again. That's not bias, but a pattern and we can all see it coming. 

Quite honestly, your wife may cheat again, even if she does get consequences. Nothing is fool proof, and nobody can control your wife, not us or you. But you can lay out boundaries and enforce them. Your wife is displaying a pattern, she is making bad choice after bad choice. Call it a mistake, call it whatever you wish so it's easier for you. But her first affair was calculated and thought out as well as the second. That is a fact you can't dispute. I say this so you really see what she is CAPABLE of. To use your word mistake, some mistakes get so big they are called f--k ups. That's what your wife did.

Your wife has no concept of reconciliation, she has no idea how big the gift of reconciliation was. She has no idea the hurt she caused to you or your family. Don't even comment here that she does. Because your wife made another mistake and listened to her boss to join a dating site. Now on this I would love to hear your wife's excuse. She finds it ok to join a dating site looking for a pen pal. This should have had your anger at borderline rage. This is a mistake a seventh grader would make. So again no remorse. 

Now you want to offer reconciliation again, and that's fine. I certainly hope you have not placed your hopes very high in this working. You have quite an uphill battle and absolutely no control whatsoever. I faced the same and we are making it so far. But I can say that my wife wasn't making good choices but they weren't this bad either. My wife also shows deep regret whereas your has not. In fact I'm thinking you will possibly have a one sided reconciliation. With her added depression and a special needs child I don't think she has the strength for reconciliation. If you think it's hard now just wait, it will get much worse. I could be wrong Lost, and I hope I am, but your chances are slim. 

Probably not what you were looking to hear but lying to you will help nobody.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## farsidejunky

I think the point that everyone is trying to make, LII, is that you are making it so easy for her to reconcile because you are doing the work for her. 

That which is not earned is never valued.


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## lost in Iowa

I suppose it just rubs me the wrong way when people say I am enabling my wife, she cheated once with her PA and again with her EA, and therefore she will again. If she does, we are through, how many times do I have to state it. I know, there are some on this board that will say, "he does not mean it, he will take her back, just like he did before." That is not true in any way. If she does this again, we are done, if she cannot control her urge or whatever it is we are through. If in her depression, she feels the need to see, talk or **** or what ever another man, I divorce her. This is her third and last chance, I chalked up her 1st one, just like did mine. A poor choice, a mistake, mid life crisis, I do not care what you call it, it was wrong. But her EA, whatever reason she got into it, she says it was her unwilling to talk to me, maybe it was disrespecting me, whatever. It really does not matter how we got here, it what we are going to do from forward. 

Enabling, allowing something to go on happening and/or show approval of: I did neither of those, I stopped the PA the day it occurred, I found out of the EA on July 7th, told my wife what I knew on July 8th. Spoke to OM wife within a week. Now how am I enabling my wife? Some will say you enable through your actions, how am I doing that, by not kicking her out of the house and divorcing her. It does bother me that my wife had the ability to be talking to me, go to the restroom, send the OM an email, and then come back to me and act like nothing happened. Yes, that bothers me a ton, the way she compartmentalized what she was doing. I think my wife is showing remorse, her therapist told her she was, I suppose we could be wrong. What does true remorse look like? I know we talk more and deeper than we have in years, she is transparent on all communications, she says she wants to be with me and will never do what she did again. She has told me in detail about every question I have asked, I have spoken to the OM wife by email and phone, confirming her and his stories between us. What more could she do? I suppose I could divorce her, and see if we can start up in two or three years, but short of that, what more can she do?


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## lost in Iowa

farsidejunky said:


> I think the point that everyone is trying to make, LII, is that you are making it so easy for her to reconcile because you are doing the work for her.
> 
> That which is not earned is never valued.


Ok, great point, what should she do? Here is what she has done since D day.

Talking more with me, Check

Spending more time with our daughter and I. Check

Helping with our daughter more. Check

Answering all my questions about her Ea. Check

Going to counseling. Check

Reading the articles I find about EA. Check

Being more willing and loving in the bedroom. Check

Wearing nightgowns and things like that. Check

Being transparent on passwords and log in codes for work, facebook and email accounts. Check.

Telling me last night, she is worried that she will **** this 
up and I will leave her. Check

Stopped all contact with EA, confirmed by OM's Wife. Check. 

Asking for my forgiveness. Check

Asking me if I will and can ever trust her again. Check

Telling me she is sorry for hurting me and wishes she had thought more about me, and less about herself. Check

Agree that she should talked to me instead of being on the singles site. Check

Saying she wants to spend the rest of her life with me, and please do not divorce her. Check

We have come a long ways in a month, are we near the end, not even close. But we are on right road to recovery, there will be pot holes in the road, it will not be easy for either of us. But if we both are committed to our marriage, we will get there. What more should she do?


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## lost in Iowa

How do I know that she does not love you - because she is constantly trying to fvck other men.

How do I know that she feels no remorse about hurting you - because she does it again and again.

How do I know she will do this again - because she has faced no consequences for doing it in the past.


See, the answers to your questions are quite simple and self evident.

So having sex once during her PA and wanting to have sex with the OM in her Ea, is constantly trying to fvck other men? I suppose I was guilty of the same thing in my EA, we were at her home, her top was off, I guess I am guilty. Doing it again and again, how many is in that. I know of two, is that two many yes, but you make it sound like the number is 5 or 10 or more. If putting our marriage on the verge of divorce is not a consequence, then what is? God I hate the "listen to me, I have all the ****ing answer crowd" from some on this board. How does this help me, by allow you to see what I do not? I know, I am too close to it, and cannot see all the things that she has done to me, I am a pushover and will allow her to do any and everything she wants, just as long as she never divorces me, and I do not have the guts to ever divorce her. All of that is a crock of ****.


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## badmemory

lost in Iowa said:


> What does true remorse look like? What more could she do?


Below are your own words LII, from the first page of your posts:

_*"She was remorseful, but only for hurting me, not really for what she did".*_

So I would suggest that you do have an idea of what true remorse looks like. Do you no longer feel that way?


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## farsidejunky

LII, this is what is so hard about reconciliation.

Is her fear of losing you lip service?

How can you trust someone's word who has cheated and lied to cover it up...twice?

It is not for the faint of heart, brother. 

Is she doing these things because you asked her to, or because she asked you what you needed?

That is an important dinstinction.


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## lost in Iowa

badmemory said:


> Below are your own words LII, from the first page of your posts:
> 
> _*"She was remorseful, but only for hurting me, not really for what she did".*_
> 
> So I would suggest that you do have an idea of what true remorse looks like. Do you no longer feel that way?


That is what how I felt after her PA from her telling me about it. she is totally different this time, talking repeatedly about how she made poor choices and how her actions harmed me and our marriage.


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## lost in Iowa

farsidejunky said:


> LII, this is what is so hard about reconciliation.
> 
> Is her fear of losing you lip service?
> 
> How can you trust someone's word who has cheated and lied to cover it up...twice?
> 
> It is not for the faint of heart, brother.
> 
> Is she doing these things because you asked her to, or because she asked you what you needed?
> 
> That is an important dinstinction.


I ask myself and her those exact same questions each and every day. I asked my counselor those questions. Her response "her actions over time will prove whether she is sincere or not." I guess we just need time here, one month is not a lot of time and everything I have read says it takes 1 to 2 years. So if that is the case we are 1/24 at the earliest through this journey.


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## farsidejunky

lost in Iowa said:


> That is what how I felt after her PA from her telling me about it. she is totally different this time, talking repeatedly about how she made poor choices and how her actions harmed me and our marriage.


What is your natural follow-up question to her assertion?


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## bfree

Has she exposed her "mistakes" to everyone in her life that matters? Has she admitted her cheating to those that have influence in her life?

Has she told those people in your life what she's done that can offer you support? Has she begged forgiveness from your friends and family so that if divorce does come to pass everyone will understand where it's coming from?

Has she voluntarily agreed to take a lie detector to confirm that what she's told you is the truth; the complete truth.

Has she agreed to sign a postnup so that if she makes another "mistake" she walks away from the marriage with no safety net?

Has she written a timeline detailing all the times, dates and actions of betrayal so that there is a record of her transgressions?

Has she cut off communication with every bad influence and toxic friend in her life so that any influence she receives from this point forward will be positive and marriage friendly?


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## lost in Iowa

farsidejunky said:


> What is your natural follow-up question to her assertion?


What changed and how did this change occur? I know I get killed for saying this, but I really do believe that her PA was nothing more than a mid life crisis or what ever. She told me a few weeks later, she never planned on leaving me, and she just wanted to find out what it would be like. I know, that is the wrong way of thinking, but I was thinking the exact same things in my EA. I suppose the difference was in mine, the OW and I both stopped for going all the way, she did not. In her EA the OM stopped, he said he could not do that. She told me the other night, the OM's wife thinks he cheats on her all the time, when he is away from home on business. But he never has, that is why he did not have sex with my wife when they met, he told her that if he ever did have an affair he wanted it to be with her, but he was not ready to cross than line yet. They would have if they ever met again, I know that, my wife wanted too that night, and would of if he was willing. From my readings, I have found this is normal in an affair, one or both have misgivings about crossing the line of infidelity, but if the affair continues, and they continue to meet, the line will be crossed. Its just a matter of time, I found out before that could happen. When I ask my wife, how she feels now, she said it was stupid and realizes all she could have lost and is sorry for hurting me and not thinking about her actions. She was looking for someone to talk too, and just got caught up in it. No one thinks their going to be an alcoholic or drug addict, they think they can control it, but in the end, they succumb to it. My wife went into her EA looking for someone to talk to, and over time, she crossed over the line between friendship and wanting their relationship to be more.


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## bandit.45

Okay.

Tell her you will be taking a three day weekend to fly to Las Vegas, and that you will be driving out to the Bunny Ranch, because you've always wanted to see what it would be like to have a threesome with two prostitutes.


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## farsidejunky

No, LII.

"Wife, if you learned your lesson when you gave yourself to another man under the roof of our home, then claimed to have learned from that mistake, why are we here again today?"

"Wife, why should I believe you when you say you learned your lesson the last time as well?"


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## lost in Iowa

bfree said:


> Has she exposed her "mistakes" to everyone in her life that matters? Has she admitted her cheating to those that have influence in her life?
> 
> Has she told those people in your life what she's done that can offer you support? Has she begged forgiveness from your friends and family so that if divorce does come to pass everyone will understand where it's coming from?
> 
> Has she voluntarily agreed to take a lie detector to confirm that what she's told you is the truth; the complete truth.
> 
> Has she agreed to sign a postnup so that if she makes another "mistake" she walks away from the marriage with no safety net?
> 
> Has she written a timeline detailing all the times, dates and actions of betrayal so that there is a record of her transgressions?
> 
> Has she cut off communication with every bad influence and toxic friend in her life so that any influence she receives from this point forward will be positive and marriage friendly?


Every thing I have been reading says that once the affair is over, and has stopped. The more people you tell the harder it will be to have a successful recovery. You should never tell adult children about the affair, you then make them choose one parent over another, and this causes the process to slow down or even stop. Telling ones parents or family, also causes slow downs in the recovery process, because they will look at the spouse in a different way than before. Now if the affair is still on going, then exposing to everyone may stop the affair, but also may drive the affair partner into the arms of the OP. What I have been reading clearly states, that this knowledge should remain between the couple, therapist and maybe a pastor or close friends of the marriage. No one else should know, it makes recovery harder. As for the timeline, I have the emails, that showed how it progressed. No she has not quit her job, so her toxic boss and friend is still there, and I have told her, she needs to set clear boundaries with both, and she has agreed too, there has been no post nub. or lie test. Not even sure where I could get her to take the test, but she did say she would be willing to take one if I thought it was necessary.


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## bandit.45




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## bfree

Lost, I'd like to relate a little story to you. I have a friend, a mentor really who was on these boards a few years ago. His user name here was Beowulf and I have no shame in telling you he truly was and is my guardian angel. He lifted me up from the hole of drug and alcohol abuse I dug for myself. He rehabilitated me in every way possible; physically, emotionally, spiritually... When I was homeless and hopelessly addicted he reached out to me and brought me into a men's group he ran through a local church. It was through Beowulf that I met my current wife. He saved my life. At the time I met him I hated women. I was really run through the grinder by my ex wife. She cheated on me with multiple men. She was cruel, remorseless and vindictive. On the day we signed the divorce paperwork she told me that if I were more of a man she wouldn't have had to "find" so many others. She broke me. Beowulf fixed me. But her cruelty warped my mind. I became addicted to drugs, abused alcohol, lost my job, lost my home. I even attempted suicide. I hated all women and especially hated cheaters. I had met Beowulf's wife Morrigan (she also posted on these boards) at various points during my recuperation. I considered her a kind religious lady. It was only much later when I found out that Morrigan had cheated on Beowulf many years ago. It was then that I began to reassess my beliefs about "cheaters." I recall one instance in vivid detail. My wife and I along with Beowulf and Morrigan and a few other couples were sitting around talking one evening. The discussion of affairs came up. Everyone knew I had been cheated on and how it messed me up. Everyone also knew how Morrigan had cheated on Beowulf. This is the thing, she never hid from her actions. She always owned her poor decisions. This one evening one of the men that was with us was a state cop who had dropped by after his shift. He was still in uniform. When someone said something to Morrigan in passing about how strong she was in working so hard to save her marriage to Beowulf she looked up with tears in her eyes. She looked and she said "I can tell you I'm not strong. If I was I wouldn't have done what I'd done. I can tell you that I'll never do anything like that again but if I ever lose my mind and betray my husband like that again I want you (looking at the cop) to take out your gun and shoot me dead. Because I couldn't bear to see that kind of pain in his eyes ever again. You'd be doing me a favor if you kill me." With that she walked out of the room obviously distraught. Mind you her affair was almost two decades old by that time. At that moment I really had to reevaluate my idea of what a cheater was and my belief that once a cheater always a cheater. Lost in Iowa, that is what true remorse looks and acts like. You'll know it when you see it.


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## lost in Iowa

bandit.45 said:


> Okay.
> 
> Tell her you will be taking a three day weekend to fly to Las Vegas, and that you will be driving out to the Bunny Ranch, because you've always wanted to see what it would be like to have a threesome with two prostitutes.


Ok, so does this help me? Do you think a revenge affair are my part is going to help the process of recovery? She ****ed up, she knows, I know and you know it. How does me screwing around help me or our marriage, it does not, it only creates more problems.


----------



## farsidejunky

lost in Iowa said:


> Ok, so does this help me? Do you think a revenge affair are my part is going to help the process of recovery? She ****ed up, she knows, I know and you know it. How does me screwing around help me or our marriage, it does not, it only creates more problems.


LII, you would do best to not take this literally, and actually see it for what it is: as an exercise in empathy for your wife.


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## lost in Iowa

bandit.45 said:


>


So you think that I should go ahead and have a revenge affair, show the ***** two can play and that game. That is what I am seeing here. Bandit, may I ask, "why do you care" and do not answer that question by saying I came here asking for advise, because where I am sitting, your advise is ****, and does not help me or my wife in our recovery. I am sure it make you feel good, but again, how does that help me? So please, take your comments to another thread and stop commenting on this one.


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## lost in Iowa

farsidejunky said:


> LII, you would do best to not take this literally, and actually see it for what it is: as an exercise in empathy for your wife.


But its not, he is making a joke at my expense. I do not laugh at others, and I will not have someone do that to me.


----------



## farsidejunky

lost in Iowa said:


> So you think that I should go ahead and have a revenge affair, show the ***** two can play and that game. That is what I am seeing here. Bandit, may I ask, "why do you care" and do not answer that question by saying I came here asking for advise, because where I am sitting, your advise is ****, and does not help me or my wife in our recovery. I am sure it make you feel good, but again, how does that help me? So please, take your comments to another thread and stop commenting on this one.


Because you are too emotional to see it.

LII, you said you are cold and calculating. I used to think I was. Really I was just hiding from the truth, which was that I am actually what would be considered overly sensitive. How does the above reaction reconcile with your earlier assertion?

Consider that for a moment.


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## farsidejunky

lost in Iowa said:


> But its not, he is making a joke at my expense. I do not laugh at others, and I will not have someone do that to me.


Funny, but I didn't see it as a joke...perception being reality and all.

He is trying to get through to you.

And what he is communicating to you are all fair points.

But you are too emotional to hear them.


----------



## lost in Iowa

bfree said:


> Lost, I'd like to relate a little story to you. I have a friend, a mentor really who was on these boards a few years ago. His user name here was Beowulf and I have no shame in telling you he truly was and is my guardian angel. He lifted me up from the hole of drug and alcohol abuse I dug for myself. He rehabilitated me in every way possible; physically, emotionally, spiritually... When I was homeless and hopelessly addicted he reached out to me and brought me into a men's group he ran through a local church. It was through Beowulf that I met my current wife. He saved my life. At the time I met him I hated women. I was really run through the grinder by my ex wife. She cheated on me with multiple men. She was cruel, remorseless and vindictive. On the day we signed the divorce paperwork she told me that if I were more of a man she wouldn't have had to "find" so many others. She broke me. Beowulf fixed me. But her cruelty warped my mind. I became addicted to drugs, abused alcohol, lost my job, lost my home. I even attempted suicide. I hated all women and especially hated cheaters. I had met Beowulf's wife Morrigan (she also posted on these boards) at various points during my recuperation. I considered her a kind religious lady. It was only much later when I found out that Morrigan had cheated on Beowulf many years ago. It was then that I began to reassess my beliefs about "cheaters." I recall one instance in vivid detail. My wife and I along with Beowulf and Morrigan and a few other couples were sitting around talking one evening. The discussion of affairs came up. Everyone knew I had been cheated on and how it messed me up. Everyone also knew how Morrigan had cheated on Beowulf. This is the thing, she never hid from her actions. She always owned her poor decisions. This one evening one of the men that was with us was a state cop who had dropped by after his shift. He was still in uniform. When someone said something to Morrigan in passing about how strong she was in working so hard to save her marriage to Beowulf she looked up with tears in her eyes. She looked and she said "I can tell you I'm not strong. If I was I wouldn't have done what I'd done. I can tell you that I'll never do anything like that again but if I ever lose my mind and betray my husband like that again I want you (looking at the cop) to take out your gun and shoot me dead. Because I couldn't bear to see that kind of pain in his eyes ever again. You'd be doing me a favor if you kill me." With that she walked out of the room obviously distraught. Mind you her affair was almost two decades old by that time. At that moment I really had to reevaluate my idea of what a cheater was and my belief that once a cheater always a cheater. Lost in Iowa, that is what true remorse looks and acts like. You'll know it when you see it.


Those people are called" friends of the marriage", willing and able to support the marriage. Problem is, they are few and far between. I hope one day my wife will have the conviction to do the same as his wife did, most do not. God bless her for what she said. Last night as I finished the book on infidelity, it was talking about a couple the man had cheated on his wife at a convention he attended each year. He had to go to the convention, so he invited his wife to go along, he had told her that the OW would also be at the convention. She went, wanting to see the OW, what did she look like,ect. For a day, they walked around the convention floor hand in hand and never saw the OW, as they went into the elevator to return to their room, the OW got on the elevator one floor up. The man motioned to his wife, this was the OW, and he put his arm around his wife, no words were said between any of them. The couple went back to the room laughing about how hard it would be for the OW seeing her former lover putting his arm around his wife. The OW they later found out left the convention that night. Little things like the husband putting his arm around her, gave the wife the strength to say, he does still want me and not her. The couple went on to have a strong and rewarding marriage.


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## bandit.45

lost in Iowa said:


> Ok, so does this help me? Do you think a revenge affair are my part is going to help the process of recovery? She ****ed up, she knows, I know and you know it. How does me screwing around help me or our marriage, it does not, it only creates more problems.


I'm not saying do it. I'm saying the next time she says that she cheated because she wanted to see what it felt like, tell her this, and then watch what she does.

A cheater who says "I wanted to see what it felt like" is like a killer who says "I shot that old woman in the head with a .44 Magnum because I wanted to see what a human head would do when it got hit by a round like that." 

Your wife lacks empathy for you. Plain and simple. She never stopped once to think how her actions might affect you.


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## lost in Iowa

farsidejunky said:


> Funny, but I didn't see it as a joke...perception being reality and all.
> 
> He is trying to get through to you.
> 
> And what he is communicating to you are all fair points.
> 
> But you are too emotional to hear them.


So the photo of Mr. Rodgers sitting down was not meant to depict me, sitting in a corner without a thought in world, everything is perfect? Because that is how I sure viewed it, and no, he is not allowed to make jokes at my expense or anyone else. I have not made any jokes about him. I have called him out for being an ass, and he has been, and asked him to stop commenting on this thread, that is all I have done.


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## farsidejunky

lost in Iowa said:


> So the photo of Mr. Rodgers sitting down was not meant to depict me, sitting in a corner without a thought in world, everything is perfect? Because that is how I sure viewed it, and no, he is not allowed to make jokes at my expense or anyone else. I have not made any jokes about him. I have called him out for being an ass, and he has been, and asked him to stop commenting on this thread, that is all I have done.


Please reread the last two sentences of the post from me that you quoted.


----------



## bandit.45

I'm gonna get of this thread before I lose my cool...

Good luck to you Iowa. You are setting yourself up for another ass-kicking by her down the road. I will stay off your thread.


----------



## lost in Iowa

bandit.45 said:


> I'm not saying do it. I'm saying the next time she says that she cheated because she wanted to see what it felt like, tell her this, and then watch what she does.
> 
> A cheater who says "I wanted to see what it felt like" is like a killer who says "I shot that old woman in the head with a .44 Magnum because I wanted to see what a human head would do when it got hit by a round like that."
> 
> Your wife lacks empathy for you. Plain and simple. She never stopped once to think how her actions might affect you.


There will not be a next time, because if there is, we will be in divorce court. When you say she never once thought about how her actions affected me, I would agree, people in affairs do not in most cases worry about how there actions will hurt their partner, only until the affair ends, does that type of reasoning occur. Has she said it since then, yes, many times. That is what you keep forgetting, can you not feel sorry for your actions? Yes, you can, all of us has said or done things we are not proud of or ashamed of doing. Humans generalize their emotions, and then after time, realize I said that, I did not mean that, but that is what I said. One of the hardest parts of dealing with an affair I am finding out is forgetting and forgiving the little details, like 'I just wanted to know what it was like" does it really matter what her reason was, she slept with him, if I get caught up in the details, running then over an over in my head, I will never be able to recover. There comes a time where you either let it go or it destroys you. I choose to let it go, not forget, but not dwell on it, and each and every word or thing she did.


----------



## lost in Iowa

farsidejunky said:


> Please reread the last two sentences of the post from me that you quoted.


Perception is not reality, just because someone thinks something does not make it true.

Yes, I am angry over his comments, feel fine to give constructive criticism all you want, but do not make fun of me over it. All of his analogy's from his first post until his last have all been the same, dump her and move on. Show me how suggestions like," I would have taken the bed they slept on and burned in the back yard, and then thrown your wedding pictures on top," or "tell her you will be going to visit the bunny ranch for a threesome for the experience". How does this help me, it does not, he is just adding fuel to the fire. Some people are like that, they get pleasure out of the pain of others, he has said he will no longer post on this thread, I am good with that.


----------



## farsidejunky

Did you just completely ignore the exercise in empathy post? 

Get a hold of yourself, LII. This post reeks of pride and self importance.


----------



## lost in Iowa

farsidejunky said:


> Because you are too emotional to see it.
> 
> LII, you said you are cold and calculating. I used to think I was. Really I was just hiding from the truth, which was that I am actually what would be considered overly sensitive. How does the above reaction reconcile with your earlier assertion?
> 
> Consider that for a moment.


So you are saying that since I showed emotion in my feedback to Bandit, I am always like that? Wrong, nothing of the sort, I have nothing against Bandit, he just rubs me the wrong way. I have dealt with many students over the years, the vast majority love my class and say I learned a lot from you. A few, I never reach and they hate my class. That does not mean that they are bad kids, we just did not connect with one another. A different teacher may tell me how much they enjoyed having them as a student and how excited the student was in class. Sometimes we rub some one the wrong way. Most of the time its by accident, sometimes done on purpose, but it does happen. That is how I feel about Bandit, he just rubs me the wrong way.


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## farsidejunky

Please show me where I said "always", or even implied it. You can't, because it does not exist. I made specific mention of one post. This is your emotions speaking again.

LII, I am trying to get you to see past Bandit's emotions, because the substance of what he is telling you is solid.


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## lost in Iowa

farsidejunky said:


> Did you just completely ignore the exercise in empathy post?
> 
> Get a hold of yourself, LII. This post reeks of pride and self importance.


Empathy, the ability to place yourself in ones situation and thereby feel their pain, sorrow, or happiness. My post is not pride or self impotence, vanity maybe, but have you seen me attack or make fun of anyone in all my posts? I called Bandit out because he made a joke at my expense. That is all I have done.


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## TheGoodGuy

bfree said:


> Lost, I'd like to relate a little story to you. I have a friend, a mentor really who was on these boards a few years ago. His user name here was Beowulf and I have no shame in telling you he truly was and is my guardian angel. He lifted me up from the hole of drug and alcohol abuse I dug for myself. He rehabilitated me in every way possible; physically, emotionally, spiritually... When I was homeless and hopelessly addicted he reached out to me and brought me into a men's group he ran through a local church. It was through Beowulf that I met my current wife. He saved my life. At the time I met him I hated women. I was really run through the grinder by my ex wife. She cheated on me with multiple men. She was cruel, remorseless and vindictive. On the day we signed the divorce paperwork she told me that if I were more of a man she wouldn't have had to "find" so many others. She broke me. Beowulf fixed me. But her cruelty warped my mind. I became addicted to drugs, abused alcohol, lost my job, lost my home. I even attempted suicide. I hated all women and especially hated cheaters. I had met Beowulf's wife Morrigan (she also posted on these boards) at various points during my recuperation. I considered her a kind religious lady. It was only much later when I found out that Morrigan had cheated on Beowulf many years ago. It was then that I began to reassess my beliefs about "cheaters." I recall one instance in vivid detail. My wife and I along with Beowulf and Morrigan and a few other couples were sitting around talking one evening. The discussion of affairs came up. Everyone knew I had been cheated on and how it messed me up. Everyone also knew how Morrigan had cheated on Beowulf. This is the thing, she never hid from her actions. She always owned her poor decisions. This one evening one of the men that was with us was a state cop who had dropped by after his shift. He was still in uniform. When someone said something to Morrigan in passing about how strong she was in working so hard to save her marriage to Beowulf she looked up with tears in her eyes. She looked and she said "I can tell you I'm not strong. If I was I wouldn't have done what I'd done. I can tell you that I'll never do anything like that again but if I ever lose my mind and betray my husband like that again I want you (looking at the cop) to take out your gun and shoot me dead. Because I couldn't bear to see that kind of pain in his eyes ever again. You'd be doing me a favor if you kill me." With that she walked out of the room obviously distraught. Mind you her affair was almost two decades old by that time. At that moment I really had to reevaluate my idea of what a cheater was and my belief that once a cheater always a cheater. Lost in Iowa, that is what true remorse looks and acts like. You'll know it when you see it.


That is powerful stuff BFree. Brought tears to my eyes.


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## lost in Iowa

farsidejunky said:


> Please show me where I said "always", or even implied it. You can't, because it does not exist. I made specific mention of one post. This is your emotions speaking again.
> 
> LII, I am trying to get you to see past Bandit's emotions, because the substance of what he is telling you is solid.


I did not say you said it, I was talking about me. You did say perception is reality, which I do not believe to be true, but what was your perception of his photo of Mr. Rodgers. If I misread it, I own Bandit an apology, do you think I misinterpreted his post?


----------



## farsidejunky

lost in Iowa said:


> Empathy, the ability to place yourself in ones situation and thereby feel their pain, sorrow, or happiness.


Good. Now, how would telling your wife that you were planning a trip to Vegas, with the requisite pit stop at a brothel, possibly inspire empathy?


----------



## farsidejunky

lost in Iowa said:


> I did not say you said it, I was talking about me. You did say perception is reality, which I do not believe to be true, but what was your perception of his photo of Mr. Rodgers. If I misread it, I own Bandit an apology, do you think I misinterpreted his post?


Each persons perception is their reality, until their perception changes, then it becomes a new reality.

As for the pic, only Bandit knows. 

What he is repeatedly trying to communicate to you, but you are unwilling to hear because you dislike the delivery, is solid. Just like the brothel.

Was it satirical? Sure. Was there truth in it? In spades.


----------



## lost in Iowa

farsidejunky said:


> Good. Now, how would telling your wife that you were planning a trip to Vegas, with the requisite pit stop at a brothel, possibly inspire empathy?


It would allow her to see how I felt when she told me the reason for her first affair. Now how does that help me, she has repeatedly told me she is sorry for her actions, and how they have hurt me. How does this test by me help our recovery? It doesn't, it just gets us side tracked, but I will ask her the question, when she comes home.


----------



## bfree

lost in Iowa said:


> Those people are called" friends of the marriage", willing and able to support the marriage. Problem is, they are few and far between. I hope one day my wife will have the conviction to do the same as his wife did, most do not. God bless her for what she said. Last night as I finished the book on infidelity, it was talking about a couple the man had cheated on his wife at a convention he attended each year. He had to go to the convention, so he invited his wife to go along, he had told her that the OW would also be at the convention. She went, wanting to see the OW, what did she look like,ect. For a day, they walked around the convention floor hand in hand and never saw the OW, as they went into the elevator to return to their room, the OW got on the elevator one floor up. The man motioned to his wife, this was the OW, and he put his arm around his wife, no words were said between any of them. The couple went back to the room laughing about how hard it would be for the OW seeing her former lover putting his arm around his wife. The OW they later found out left the convention that night. Little things like the husband putting his arm around her, gave the wife the strength to say, he does still want me and not her. The couple went on to have a strong and rewarding marriage.


They are only few and far between if you aren't looking. If you don't provide the knowledge you cannot decry the scarcity of friendship. How do you know whether someone is a friend of the marriage until you give them the chance to prove it. Why are you so afraid of transparency and honesty? Wouldn't it be great if your wife surrounded herself with people who have a moral conscience? People who would not only hold her accountable for damaging choices but would encourage her when she does the right thing? Why isn't this not only possible but an attainable goal? My wife and I live a transparent life. We're an open book to our friends and family. If someone proves to be a undesirable influence they are discarded from our lives. Shouldn't that be your goal as well?


----------



## farsidejunky

Look, brother. It gives her a glimpse into the damage she has wrought in you. To this point, I still see her feeling empathy because you are telling her she should, not because she truly feels it. Perhaps I am wrong. Maybe I and others are misinterpreting what you write about your wife. Perhaps she does genuinely feel empathy.

But what I get from your posts is that you explain her actions, and they do not appear to be actions of a truly empathetic person. But when I and others point that out, you rush in to defend her for being empathetic.

Again, to be fair, maybe she is. But I am not feeling it when you describe your wife's actions and responses from your conversations.


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## lost in Iowa

farsidejunky said:


> Each persons perception is their reality, until their perception changes, then it becomes a new reality.
> 
> As for the pic, only Bandit knows.
> 
> What he is repeatedly trying to communicate to you, but you are unwilling to hear because you dislike the delivery, is solid. Just like the brothel.
> 
> Was it satirical? Sure. Was there truth in it? In spades.


So his perception of my case is therefore correct, and mine is incorrect. Show me in any of my posts, where I said, everything she has done is ok? I tried to explain it, justify it maybe. But no where have I said, go ahead and sleep around, and I will be here when you return. And do not say your actions said it, because that is also untrue. For some on this board anything short of total and immediate divorce is seen has a sign of weakness and rug sweeping. I do not see it that way, should have I been harder on her the first time, yes, I have told her that many times. I thought we had hit a bump in the road, and were working to get past in. Maybe that is why, we Ea that started a year later is so much harder to forgive. She did not recommit back to me like I thought she had, and I did not realize or see it. That is my fault, for not be more attentive after her first affair. That will not happen this time, I will not be letting down my guard for years. If she gets tired of my spying on her, she can leave, and I tell everyone why she left. But if she does truly want to come back to me and our daughter, I will take her back, one more time.


----------



## lost in Iowa

farsidejunky said:


> Look, brother. It gives her a glimpse into the damage she has wrought in you. To this point, I still see her feeling empathy because you are telling her she should, not because she truly feels it. Perhaps I am wrong. Maybe I and others are misinterpreting what you write about your wife. Perhaps she does genuinely feel empathy.
> 
> But what I get from your posts is that you explain her actions, and they do not appear to be actions of a truly empathetic person. But when I and others point that out, you rush in to defend her for being empathetic.
> 
> Again, to be fair, maybe she is. But I am not feeling it when you describe your wife's actions and responses from your conversations.


Her first affair, I would say in hindsight, you are correct, its different this time. Her actions are different, the way she talks. The first time there was anger in her voice, this time its something totally different, regret, worry, I am not sure. But there is no anger. Maybe she was getting back at me for my EA, I do not know, but her voice, mannerism everything is different now. Last night, as we sat on the couch, she stated crying, I asked her "why are you crying?" and she said, "I am afraid I am going to **** this up by not saying the right thing, and you will leave." I told her, "only one thing will cause me to leave, that is if you start your Ea or anything like it again." "there is no perfect answers to my questions, only those from your heart." Do you want to be here with us? She said "yes", then good enough.


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## lost in Iowa

bfree said:


> They are only few and far between if you aren't looking. If you don't provide the knowledge you cannot decry the scarcity of friendship. How do you know whether someone is a friend of the marriage until you give them the chance to prove it. Why are you so afraid of transparency and honesty? Wouldn't it be great if your wife surrounded herself with people who have a moral conscience? People who would not only hold her accountable for damaging choices but would encourage her when she does the right thing? Why isn't this not only possible but an attainable goal? My wife and I live a transparent life. We're an open book to our friends and family. If someone proves to be a undesirable influence they are discarded from our lives. Shouldn't that be your goal as well?


I am not afraid of what you ask, but I also realize we live in a town of 2600 people, and in small towns, people love to talk. We have transparency between us, that will have to suffice for now. Maybe one day will be able to do that, but one month is way to soon.


----------



## farsidejunky

lost in Iowa said:


> Last night, as we sat on the couch, she stated crying, I asked her "why are you crying?" and she said, "I am afraid I am going to **** this up by not *saying the right thing*, and you will leave." I told her, "only one thing will cause me to leave, that is if you start your Ea or anything like it again." "there is no perfect answers to my questions, only those from your heart." Do you want to be here with us? She said "yes", then good enough.


While it is good that she fears losing you, it seems odd that she used the term "saying" rather than "doing". Actions are what counts here. 

Perhaps I am scrutinizing too far what she said, but if I had a WW and she said that to me, I would have immediately addressed it.

ETA: Another way to explain it would be that she should be asking, "What do I need to DO to make it right" not, "What do I need to SAY to make it right?". Does that make sense?


----------



## bfree

lost in Iowa said:


> I am not afraid of what you ask, but I also realize we live in a town of 2600 people, and in small towns, people love to talk. We have transparency between us, that will have to suffice for now. Maybe one day will be able to do that, but one month is way to soon.


I think you're both making a huge mistake. You hushed up her first affair and how did that work out? To me there is nothing more beautiful than a sinner that turned away from sin. I don't run from my past. I don't refrain from revealing my past drug and alcohol use. Those people that can't handle that information can't be in my life. I don't worry about how I'm perceived. The only opinion that matters to me is my own. Why do you care about the opinions of others? If 2600 people thought you and your wife were both scum but your marriage was strong and fulfilling wouldn't you not only accept that but be happy and grateful?


----------



## lost in Iowa

farsidejunky said:


> While it is good that she fears losing you, it seems odd that she used the term "saying" rather than "doing". Actions are what counts here.
> 
> Perhaps I am scrutinizing too far what she said, but if I had a WW and she said that to me, I would have immediately addressed it.
> 
> ETA: Another way to explain it would be that she should be asking, "What do I need to DO to make it right" not, "What do I need to SAY to make it right?". Does that make sense?


Yes, it does, and that is what she was talking about, we are trying to stress the positive way of speaking to one another. But doing is better than saying.


----------



## lost in Iowa

bfree said:


> I think you're both making a huge mistake. You hushed up her first affair and how did that work out? To me there is nothing more beautiful than a sinner that turned away from sin. I don't run from my past. I don't refrain from revealing my past drug and alcohol use. Those people that can't handle that information can't be in my life. I don't worry about how I'm perceived. The only opinion that matters to me is my own. Why do you care about the opinions of others? If 2600 people thought you and your wife were both scum but your marriage was strong and fulfilling wouldn't you not only accept that but be happy and grateful?


I would accept that, that now is not the time, in the future, maybe, but not yet. Some people believe the best way to teach a child how to swim, is by throwing them in the pool, they have an innate ability to swim naturally. For some it works wonders, others have been known to be terrified of water the rest of their lives. Be patient, we will get there.


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## bfree

lost in Iowa said:


> I would accept that, that now is not the time, in the future, maybe, but not yet. Some people believe the best way to teach a child how to swim, is by throwing them in the pool, they have an innate ability to swim naturally. For some it works wonders, others have been known to be terrified of water the rest of their lives. Be patient, we will get there.


I'm as patient as an oak tree but remember you can't teach a child to swim unless you go into the water.


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## lost in Iowa

bfree said:


> I'm as patient as an oak tree but remember you can't teach a child to swim unless you go into the water.


The water is just fine right now. Thank you for talking to me, I must go now, will be back in a couple of days. Sometimes I know I sound like I am not taking peoples advise, but I am, just not every single word. It does help to hear constructive criticism but if given too much, it comes across as a negative. Research show you should say 7 positive things for every 1 negative thing, I know this is different, but things are improving here. Right now, my wife and I are emailing each other on what we are going to do to each other when she gets home. Thanks again.


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## Vulcan2013

I started reading here because I lacked empathy for my BW. Cheaters are selfish and entitled, and really think the BS should get over it. If your W means her words, she'll put boundaries in place and do whatever you need. 

I was always looking for what to SAY. Lacking empathy, I didn't really help her heal. 

What Bandit was suggesting was asking your wife to imagine how she'd feel in your place. Don't make it abstract, but with specific facts to make it have impact.


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## Mr Blunt

> *By Lost In Iowa*
> Ok, great point, what should she do? Here is what she has done since D day.
> 
> Talking more with me, Check
> 
> Spending more time with our daughter and I. Check
> 
> Helping with our daughter more. Check
> 
> answering all my questions about her Ea. Check
> 
> Going to counseling. Check
> 
> Reading the articles I find about EA. Check
> 
> Being more willing and loving in the bedroom. Check
> 
> Wearing nightgowns and things like that. Check
> 
> Being transparent on passwords and log in codes for work, facebook and email accounts. Check.
> 
> Telling me last night, she is worried that she will **** this
> up and I will leave her. Check
> 
> Stopped all contact with EA, confirmed by OM's Wife. Check.
> 
> Asking for my forgiveness. Check
> 
> Asking me if I will and can ever trust her again. Check
> 
> Telling me she is sorry for hurting me and wishes she had thought more about me, and less about herself. Check
> 
> Agree that she should talked to me instead of being on the singles site. Check
> 
> Saying she wants to spend the rest of her life with me, and please do not divorce her. Check
> 
> We have come a long ways in a month, are we near the end, not even close. But we are on right road to recovery, there will be pot holes in the road, it will not be easy for either of us. But if we both are committed to our marriage, we will get there. What more should she do?



LII
That is an impressive list you made above. Your wife is taking some actions that are very positive.

I would not doubt that your wife is waking up and wants to R. Her actions for the first 6 months to year will probably be very sincere. It is the next 2-20 years that will also be of great concern to you. I am not saying that your wife is going to have another EA or PA but I do hope that she addresses the reasons why she did it in the past.

You said that she resented having a handicap daughter and for marrying so young. *Have those bitterness’s been eliminated?* Your wife probably felt that she missed out on something because she married so young and that can lead to trying to capture your youth. Resenting her daughter for being handicap is a very ugly resentment. I know that is a very hard issue to deal with even though I do not have a handicap child. I do not have to have a handicap child to know that her resentment will really cause all kinds of negative actions on your wife’s part.


Since you are adamant on R I want to try and support you. First, I will say that it is possible that you two can save the marriage; even though your situation and mine are different we have been in R for over 20 years and doing good, perhaps you can also. Secondly, your wife seems to have a huge attitude adjustment in the last few days; I get that from your posts these last several days. Thirdly, your wife is taking some actions that are positive and *actions always tells the truth much better than words. *Fourthly, you have taken some pretty hot heat on this thread and you are still very civil and write clearly and well. I admire that.

*I still think that a pre-nup would help to protect you and add another barrier to her entertaining an ER or PA in the years to come.* Knowing that she will lose a lot will make a sane person think about dismissing all thoughts of an affair. You may not have to worry about that now because your wife seems so frightened but *what about year 4-5-or 10?* If you are successful with your R you will have a very good chance of having 20+ years more in your marriage. Do not just think about now and the next 6-12 months because the next 19 years will take up a lot more of your life than these next several months. As your counselor said "her actions over time will prove whether she is sincere or not." You will not have a comfortable level (approx. 70%) of security and reduced hurt about your wife until your wife has proven herself for 3-5 years. I now have 95% security and reduced hurt but it has taken 10-20 years to get to that high number. 

*The Pre-Nup is not so much to punish her but to protect you and give her more of an incentive to remain loyal and not have another affair.*

I hope that you keep us informed over the upcoming years as your case can give a lot of hope to others if you make it or if you do not make it, you will give us much more of an education.


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## turnera

Guys, let's let him be, ok? This has been 30 straight pages of telling him to ditch her, Scarlet A her, humiliate her, set her up in flames. He gets it, ok? 

Let's give him a break and see how it shakes out. He KNOWS what to do, what to watch for, and how to handle her. He's doing fine.


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## aine

lost in Iowa said:


> Those people are called" friends of the marriage", willing and able to support the marriage. Problem is, they are few and far between. I hope one day my wife will have the conviction to do the same as his wife did, most do not. God bless her for what she said. Last night as I finished the book on infidelity, it was talking about a couple the man had cheated on his wife at a convention he attended each year. He had to go to the convention, so he invited his wife to go along, he had told her that the OW would also be at the convention. She went, wanting to see the OW, what did she look like,ect. For a day, they walked around the convention floor hand in hand and never saw the OW, as they went into the elevator to return to their room, the OW got on the elevator one floor up. The man motioned to his wife, this was the OW, and he put his arm around his wife, no words were said between any of them. The couple went back to the room laughing about how hard it would be for the OW seeing her former lover putting his arm around his wife. The OW they later found out left the convention that night. Little things like the husband putting his arm around her, gave the wife the strength to say, he does still want me and not her. The couple went on to have a strong and rewarding marriage.


I think there is something quite sick and twisted about this story of the H and W in the lift and putting his arm around wife in front of the OW, laughing, etc. It made the OW out to be the totally culpable party when all along she owed the W nothing it was the WH who cheated on the marriage and owed the wife everything. He was the one who should be bending over backwards for the W not going out to 'prove' his choice was his W in front of the OW. There is something very perverse about this tbh. I think there are better ways of proving you are committed to the marriage after infidelity and going and rubbing your ex AP nose in it is not one of them, it is childish, selfish and totally minimises the role of the WH in the whole sorry business.:surprise:


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## drifting on

Lost in Iowa

I remember being in your shoes only to well. Your hurting, your confused, and you have everyday life stresses to handle. Your wife has done many things right and many things wrong. That's to be expected. Nobody is perfect when they are involved with infidelity and all the intricacies of infidelity that come. So after one month I would say you're doing fine, your wife is trying, so start setting some goals for her. 

Have her develop a few mantras, one about positive things about her and one where she is lacking. If her self esteem is bad then have her say she is a beautiful person, and so on. Have her write a list on how she intends to make you feel safe. Have her tally how many times a day she thinks of the affair, you do the same then compare them at night and discuss it. My wife and I did this and my wife was shocked that the affair entered my mind every six minutes. 

You need to do things together, you need to have some down time together. You will have to schedule this together. Have your wife start to try to recognize your triggers. Talk them through. Most importantly, talk the affair through, set aside thirty minutes and discuss the affair. Stop if you become angry sad, or overwhelmed. You need to schedule this three times a week for now. The rest of the time talk of the affair is off limits. It has it's scheduled time for a reason. You only discuss it if one of you is struggling hard. Then you talk through that moment and go back to your schedule. Each partner has the right to stop the talk if becoming overwhelmed. If that happens you stop the talk immediately, and I mean immediately, you don't finish your sentence if one of you says to stop. But you have to return to that moment within twenty four hours to talk it through. 

Reconciliation is the hardest work I've ever done, I'm sure you will find it that way too. You will se true remorse when you start making progress, but true remorse will take a long time. So don't get upset if you don't see it in a couple if months. 

Best of luck to you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lost in Iowa

aine said:


> I think there is something quite sick and twisted about this story of the H and W in the lift and putting his arm around wife in front of the OW, laughing, etc. It made the OW out to be the totally culpable party when all along she owed the W nothing it was the WH who cheated on the marriage and owed the wife everything. He was the one who should be bending over backwards for the W not going out to 'prove' his choice was his W in front of the OW. There is something very perverse about this tbh. I think there are better ways of proving you are committed to the marriage after infidelity and going and rubbing your ex AP nose in it is not one of them, it is childish, selfish and totally minimises the role of the WH in the whole sorry business.:surprise:


I think you are missing the point of the story, it was not to show up the OW, it was to comfort his wife, showing her that he wants to be with her. The wife was the one that needed the reassuring, and by putting his arm around her waist and holding her, he was showing her that he wanted to be with her and not the OW. Laughing about it afterward showed that both of them are now well into recovery. When you can joke about something that has hurt you, you are over the problem and have put in into your past.


----------



## lost in Iowa

drifting on said:


> Lost in Iowa
> 
> I remember being in your shoes only to well. Your hurting, your confused, and you have everyday life stresses to handle. Your wife has done many things right and many things wrong. That's to be expected. Nobody is perfect when they are involved with infidelity and all the intricacies of infidelity that come. So after one month I would say you're doing fine, your wife is trying, so start setting some goals for her.
> 
> Have her develop a few mantras, one about positive things about her and one where she is lacking. If her self esteem is bad then have her say she is a beautiful person, and so on. Have her write a list on how she intends to make you feel safe. Have her tally how many times a day she thinks of the affair, you do the same then compare them at night and discuss it. My wife and I did this and my wife was shocked that the affair entered my mind every six minutes.
> 
> You need to do things together, you need to have some down time together. You will have to schedule this together. Have your wife start to try to recognize your triggers. Talk them through. Most importantly, talk the affair through, set aside thirty minutes and discuss the affair. Stop if you become angry sad, or overwhelmed. You need to schedule this three times a week for now. The rest of the time talk of the affair is off limits. It has it's scheduled time for a reason. You only discuss it if one of you is struggling hard. Then you talk through that moment and go back to your schedule. Each partner has the right to stop the talk if becoming overwhelmed. If that happens you stop the talk immediately, and I mean immediately, you don't finish your sentence if one of you says to stop. But you have to return to that moment within twenty four hours to talk it through.
> 
> Reconciliation is the hardest work I've ever done, I'm sure you will find it that way too. You will se true remorse when you start making progress, but true remorse will take a long time. So don't get upset if you don't see it in a couple if months.
> 
> Best of luck to you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


We talk a lot about her affair, and did again tonight. I asked her if she felt what she was doing was wrong, any guilt when she was emailing the OM, and she said no, not at the time. I do now she said. When travel up to meet him, she said she felt guilt for the first time about what she was doing. She then said now, looking back it was wrong and she should have saw it. I did ask her about me sleeping with someone else for the experience of doing it. Her reply, she would be jealous, but if that is what I needed to get through with this, she would try. She said "I did that too you, so I guess I should expect that you should be able to do that to me." I told her that was the wrong answer, that no, I do not want to sleep with anyone but her, and she needs to be able to tell me the same thing. Our marriage is between us, not us and others. I do not want nor need a Hall Pass from my wife, she hugged me when I told her that.


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## lost in Iowa

You said that she resented having a handicap daughter and for marrying so young. Have those bitterness’s been eliminated? Your wife probably felt that she missed out on something because she married so young and that can lead to trying to capture your youth. Resenting her daughter for being handicap is a very ugly resentment. I know that is a very hard issue to deal with even though I do not have a handicap child. I do not have to have a handicap child to know that her resentment will really cause all kinds of negative actions on your wife’s part.



Their is nothing we can do about the marrying young part, and no I do not think she is trying to recapture her youth. She enjoys being a grandmother, its been great for both of us to be grandparents. I do not think my wife ever resented having a handicapped child, she resents the work involved. The lack of being able to go anywhere on the spur of a moment. Having to find a baby sitter for a 36 year old. Going out to eat, and then taking extra time for space for a wheel chair. That is what both of us resent. Having little kids stare at you and point, I know they are too young to know not to do it, but it does take a toll after so many years. Believe me its not all bad, we get great parking at every store, we get to park in the handicapped lot when we go to college football games, and our daughter loves Christmas, she starts saying HO HO, the moment it gets cold, and well after Christmas has come and gone. It can be as bleak some days as people say, but not always. But I would not wish raising a handicapped child on my worse enemy. My wife's brother and wife lost a child two weeks after birth, they were crushed as they should have been. But my wife and I also know they were lucky in some ways. I will add I cherish the smiles I get from my daughter, her kisses as I put her to bed, the way she yells DAD DAD, when I walk into the house. I will have those forever, I just wish it was easier some days than it is, my wife feels the same. Resentment no, its not resentment at all, just the wish to have a normal life.


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## Dyokemm

LiI,

The fact that you and your W love and cherish your daughter immensely is very clear from your posts.

But something about the end of your last post really reminded me of my mother.

My mother is also the type of person who expends large amounts of energy into thinking about how she wishes situations in the past or parts of her life had been different.

My dad is the opposite....doesn't see the point in wasting time and effort ruminating on 'what if's' in life...better to face the reality of the cards life has dealt you (and I will always be extremely grateful he was able to instill this lesson in me).

Based on the experience of witnessing this behavior in my mom, I think some people handle this tendency much better than others.

For example, you have shared that you also have had those feelings...but you have not let them overwhelm you in life.

I think your WW is more like my mom....she gets very depressed and anxious when thinking about these things.

Luckily for my mom, she has had my dad there to support and comfort her...and to act as a check on her behavior when my mother starts to spin out of control.

My dad eventually convinced my mom to get counseling for this mental tendency...it really helped her, and my mother is far better in recent years about not letting stress and depression from life disappointments overwhelm her.

I hope you can convince your WW to discuss this issue with her IC.....and not only because this may have played a role in why your WW choice to assuage her disappointment with A's.

But, also because, as I can attest from what I observed for years with my mom, it is a tragedy to go through life upset about the things you wish would have happened rather than enjoying the things you do have in life.

Best of luck to you, your WW, and all of your family in getting through this.


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## drifting on

Lost in Iowa

My wife and I tried for fifteen years to conceive a child. We did fertility, invitro and my wife suffered a miscarriage. After the miscarriage I could no longer ride the roller coaster of fertility. I gave up, I convinced myself I would never, never hear a child say dad or daddy. Then my wife became pregnant, we were high risk, doctor appointments every week with her OBGYN and a specialist. I missed one appointment, the first. 

After the first appointment she showed me an ultrasound photo, there were two little peas showing. I cried Lost, I cried for the next three hours. My wife was pregnant with twins! We later found out they were identical twin boys! I am a Christian man, and I believe God have us those two miracles when we were ready. I believe God gave you your special needs child as he saw two living people who were up to Gods challenge to raise her. Cherish that moment she yells DAD DAD when you come through that door, for you will never realize how much you enjoy hearing it when it's gone. I understand you love everyone in your family, cherish that love for some people don't get that opportunity.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lost in Iowa

Dyokemm said:


> LiI,
> 
> The fact that you and your W love and cherish your daughter immensely is very clear from your posts.
> 
> But something about the end of your last post really reminded me of my mother.
> 
> My mother is also the type of person who expends large amounts of energy into thinking about how she wishes situations in the past or parts of her life had been different.
> 
> My dad is the opposite....doesn't see the point in wasting time and effort ruminating on 'what if's' in life...better to face the reality of the cards life has dealt you (and I will always be extremely grateful he was able to instill this lesson in me).
> 
> Based on the experience of witnessing this behavior in my mom, I think some people handle this tendency much better than others.
> 
> For example, you have shared that you also have had those feelings...but you have not let them overwhelm you in life.
> 
> I think your WW is more like my mom....she gets very depressed and anxious when thinking about these things.
> 
> Luckily for my mom, she has had my dad there to support and comfort her...and to act as a check on her behavior when my mother starts to spin out of control.
> 
> My dad eventually convinced my mom to get counseling for this mental tendency...it really helped her, and my mother is far better in recent years about not letting stress and depression from life disappointments overwhelm her.
> 
> I hope you can convince your WW to discuss this issue with her IC.....and not only because this may have played a role in why your WW choice to assuage her disappointment with A's.
> 
> But, also because, as I can attest from what I observed for years with my mom, it is a tragedy to go through life upset about the things you wish would have happened rather than enjoying the things you do have in life.
> 
> Best of luck to you, your WW, and all of your family in getting through this.


Thanks for your story, Yes, I think my wife and I are exactly like your parents. I tend to handle the difficulties with our daughter better than my wife. I guess its just something people are born with. I have excepted this is our life, and deal with that fact the best way I can. My wife is very different, and I think her depression causes her to go into a hole, and pull away from us when it hits. Her therapist thinks that was a major cause of her affairs, and so do I. People say you are rug sweeping when I say that, but I believe it. Depression must be a terrible thing, to pull away from the ones you love, and try to escape to a fantasy world. But that was the way my wife dealt with her depression. I suppose that is why her EA was so easy and see felt little or no guilt why doing it. It was her escape from real life, and there she could be who she wanted to be without the stress of our daughter. Yes, it was her choice, she is working on her depression with her counselor and hopefully with his help, it will allow her to cope with it.


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## sapientia

lost in Iowa said:


> Ok, so does this help me? Do you think a revenge affair are my part is going to help the process of recovery? She ****ed up, she knows, I know and you know it. How does me screwing around help me or our marriage, it does not, it only creates more problems.


No, don't do this. Don't do anything that isn't congruent with your values. If you do this, you truly will hate her b/c you will feel she drove you to betray your values, which is far more destructive to your marriage than a PA. IMO.

Life goes on. If you feel she is truly remorseful and doing what she can to help you both heal, then if you can let it go you should. Happiness is a choice. If you can do this and not feel bitter then carry on.

There are a lot of angry bitter people on this site. Its natural to feel this after an affair, but many have difficulty getting out of the mental rut. If you are there, then kudos to you as you are on the path to healing. I commend your loyalty and commitment to your marriage.

Is there anything more you need help with? Otherwise I'm going to bow out of your thread with a farewell.


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## lost in Iowa

sapientia said:


> No, don't do this. Don't do anything that isn't congruent with your values. If you do this, you truly will hate her b/c you will feel she drove you to betray your values, which is far more destructive to your marriage than a PA. IMO.
> 
> Life goes on. If you feel she is truly remorseful and doing what she can to help you both heal, then if you can let it go you should. Happiness is a choice. If you can do this and not feel bitter then carry on.
> 
> There are a lot of angry bitter people on this site. Its natural to feel this after an affair, but many have difficulty getting out of the mental rut. If you are there, then kudos to you as you are on the path to healing. I commend your loyalty and commitment to your marriage.
> 
> Is there anything more you need help with? Otherwise I'm going to bow out of your thread with a farewell.


I will not have a revenge affair or any other type of affairs. I told my wife last night, "have an affair with me". That is the only type I want. Yes, there are quite a few angry people on this site, but there are also many people that truly want to help. I will not give up on the site, just because some people want to project their anger on to each and every thread.


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## sapientia

I've noticed you have a bit of difficulty understanding some posts.

*I'm bowing out of your thread* because I cannot determine what it is you are actually gaining from this continued dialog. You have made your decision. You don't seem interested in taking anyone else's advice, and I find you quite argumentative, so I view any further exchange with you as unnecessary at this time. 

All the best Iowa.


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## drifting on

sapientia said:


> No, don't do this. Don't do anything that isn't congruent with your values. If you do this, you truly will hate her b/c you will feel she drove you to betray your values, which is far more destructive to your marriage than a PA. IMO.
> 
> Life goes on. If you feel she is truly remorseful and doing what she can to help you both heal, then if you can let it go you should. Happiness is a choice. If you can do this and not feel bitter then carry on.
> 
> There are a lot of angry bitter people on this site. Its natural to feel this after an affair, but many have difficulty getting out of the mental rut. If you are there, then kudos to you as you are on the path to healing. I commend your loyalty and commitment to your marriage.
> 
> Is there anything more you need help with? Otherwise I'm going to bow out of your thread with a farewell.




Lost in Iowa

What sapientia is saying is good advice, I can tell you I did the opposite and I'm not near the healing I sometimes think I should be at. I became destroyed during the two and half years my wife lied and not finding the smoking gun evidence. I became depressed, didn't tell anyone, and didn't seek help. By the time I asked my wife to schedule MC I knew my best answer was death. You told your daughter, I understand why, and you are not wrong for doing so! Your daughter, just by telling, kept you from suppressing all that pain. This is another reason I feel her husband should be told. To give both of you an outlet that isn't yourselves and give you a fresh perspective.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sapientia

turnera said:


> Guys, let's let him be, ok? This has been 30 straight pages of telling him to ditch her, Scarlet A her, humiliate her, set her up in flames. He gets it, ok?
> 
> Let's give him a break and see how it shakes out. He KNOWS what to do, what to watch for, and how to handle her. He's doing fine.


This^. Exactly right.


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## lost in Iowa

drifting on said:


> Lost in Iowa
> 
> What sapientia is saying is good advice, I can tell you I did the opposite and I'm not near the healing I sometimes think I should be at. I became destroyed during the two and half years my wife lied and not finding the smoking gun evidence. I became depressed, didn't tell anyone, and didn't seek help. By the time I asked my wife to schedule MC I knew my best answer was death. You told your daughter, I understand why, and you are not wrong for doing so! Your daughter, just by telling, kept you from suppressing all that pain. This is another reason I feel her husband should be told. To give both of you an outlet that isn't yourselves and give you a fresh perspective.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Maybe I am confused about what sapeinia is saying, I thought they were saying do not have a revenge affair, which I agree with. I just spoke to my daughter, and I know how difficult of a position I have placed her in and told her. I said that hopefully soon, she will be given permission to tell her husband. Her response was she wanted to have her siblings also know, and then they could all talk to her. We have tried the family sit down and get over a problem twice. Both times the person in the center, felt like they were attacked and both times we all left feeling worse the problem then before. Maybe in time we can tell our sons, but first we need to make sure we are through this. She says the affair is over, I want to believe her, and everything points to that. So now we need to begin to rebuild the trust between us, and then between daughter and mother.


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## drifting on

lost in Iowa said:


> Maybe I am confused about what sapeinia is saying, I thought they were saying do not have a revenge affair, which I agree with. I just spoke to my daughter, and I know how difficult of a position I have placed her in and told her. I said that hopefully soon, she will be given permission to tell her husband. Her response was she wanted to have her siblings also know, and then they could all talk to her. We have tried the family sit down and get over a problem twice. Both times the person in the center, felt like they were attacked and both times we all left feeling worse the problem then before. Maybe in time we can tell our sons, but first we need to make sure we are through this. She says the affair is over, I want to believe her, and everything points to that. So now we need to begin to rebuild the trust between us, and then between daughter and mother.


 I understand completely where you are coming from. My wife and I did not expose her affair to family either except for my sister who I told and her cousin who she told. I am from a town of 1800 so I understand how the information gets spread. All I was trying to say is to let your daughter tell her husband. If I found my wife keeping that a secret from me I would be angry, whether or not my wife has an affair there should be no secrets in marriage. Obviously, you know your situation best, I was just trying to point out her husbands side.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thorburn

lost in Iowa said:


> What changed and how did this change occur? I know I get killed for saying this, but I really do believe that her PA was nothing more than a mid life crisis or what ever. She told me a few weeks later, she never planned on leaving me, and she just wanted to find out what it would be like. I know, that is the wrong way of thinking, but I was thinking the exact same things in my EA. I suppose the difference was in mine, the OW and I both stopped for going all the way, she did not. In her EA the OM stopped, he said he could not do that. She told me the other night, the OM's wife thinks he cheats on her all the time, when he is away from home on business. But he never has, that is why he did not have sex with my wife when they met, he told her that if he ever did have an affair he wanted it to be with her, but he was not ready to cross than line yet. They would have if they ever met again, I know that, my wife wanted too that night, and would of if he was willing. From my readings, I have found this is normal in an affair, one or both have misgivings about crossing the line of infidelity, but if the affair continues, and they continue to meet, the line will be crossed. Its just a matter of time, I found out before that could happen. When I ask my wife, how she feels now, she said it was stupid and realizes all she could have lost and is sorry for hurting me and not thinking about her actions. She was looking for someone to talk too, and just got caught up in it. No one thinks their going to be an alcoholic or drug addict, they think they can control it, but in the end, they succumb to it. My wife went into her EA looking for someone to talk to, and over time, she crossed over the line between friendship and wanting their relationship to be more.


Lost, I have read most of your posts. I am going to lay out some of my credentials for you. I sat on Army promotion boards and never once met the soldiers. Just read personnel folders. It did not matter what ratings their superiors gave them, they could have an excellent rating on every section, if there was no substance the board would rate them low. If a superior rated a soldier marginally and the substance of the rating showed excellence they scored high. I once received a marginal rating from a colonel in the competence section. Yet, I completed a Master's level course from the Naval Academy and served in a Lieutenant Colonel position (while I was a Master Sergeant) in an exercise, and was the only enlisted person to give a daily briefing to General Honore (the Ragin Cajun) during this time. My overall score for promotion was 500 points above my nearest competitor. It did not matter that I received a marginal rating from my superior, what mattered was the substance of what I did in the past year, and the record showed it.

I do assessments everyday as a psychotherapist. Today I had 5 clients, yesterday 6. In counseling I pick up clues, body language, something said or not said. I read people. When I was on Active Duty I once had to hire about 40 soldiers. I could tell within about 10 seconds of meeting a soldier whether they had the character and ability to do the job. It did not matter what was on their resume. I only ever misread one and fired him within a month. In a previous job I had to set up interviews for potential staff psychiatrists, and gave assessments to the chief of psychiatry, based upon phone calls and initial interviews. He always took my assessments at face value and never hired anyone who I thought was a dud or a nut (yes, some psychiatrists have issues).

Here is my assessment of what you have written:

1. Your wife said that the OM's wife feels her husband has cheated on her multiple times and your statement is "He never has". Typically when a spouses' gut tells them that their spouse is cheating, you can almost always believe that the spouse is cheating. The "gut" sense, is commonly acknowledged as being pretty accurate by many experts who study or deal with infidelity. I think the OM's spouse is more accurate then either you or your wife's assessment, and she thinks he is a serial cheater.

2. Your statement, "But he never has" (cheated). Yes he did. When people typically use the word "NEVER", it is a word a liar uses or a person is not convinced. I am not saying that the word "never" means a person is lying, but "NEVER" is one of those words that some of us know as a word, when used, to question. A typical honest reply is No, I did not do that, when someone says, "I never cheated", it is highly probable that that person is lying. Research words and phrases liars use.

3. Your statement, *"But he never has, that is why he did not have sex with my wife when they met, he told her that if he ever did have an affair he wanted it to be with her, but he was not ready to cross than line yet. They would have if they ever met again, I know that, my wife wanted too that night, and would of if he was willing. From my readings, I have found this is normal in an affair, one or both have misgivings about crossing the line of infidelity, but if the affair continues, and they continue to meet, the line will be crossed."* 
I will state with almost 100% certainty that the first time they met they had rip roaring sex and it was not the way you are describing it, that they (he) could not cross the line. I will again say with almost 100% certainty, that their first meeting was planned, talked about, and it was all about sex. I will say they were hyper aroused from their previous conversations and their first meeting was not as timid, reserved or guilt filled as you state. 

Your statement comes right out of the cheater's handbook and it is ironic that you are saying it.

4. *I know I get killed for saying this, but I really do believe that her PA was nothing more than a mid life crisis or what ever.* You like that phrase, "I know I am going to get killed for saying this". You are excusing your wife's cheating, my friend, and it is bordering on pathological.

5. I do not see remorse in your wife. I don't hear it in what you are writing about her. I think your wife is BS'ing you big time.

6. You keep making up one excuse after another for your wife and the OM. Your posts scream out like a jet engine. Like I said before this borders on pathological behavior and most of the posters see it and you don't.


7. Is the A over? Is it? Ever hear of a burner phone, other email accounts, etc. I would suggest that perhaps this went underground.

8. *No one thinks their going to be an alcoholic or drug addict, they think they can control it, but in the end, they succumb to it.*

I have done drug and alcohol counseling for years. Your statement is naïve. Some think that they won't become an addict but others don't care when they take their first hit or first drink what the outcome is. Some heroin addicts that I worked with (some are dead due to overdose) will take the strongest dose, knowing it will potentially kill them. In 1996 "Super Buick" hit the streets, basically heroin laced with Scopolamine. It was also called "Homicide". I lost "Big John" to this ****tail and "Buck" his friend knew "Big John" was dead before he hit the floor, but "Buck" shot up anyway. I helped save "Buck" and helped him get off heroin, but "Big John" died. Some folks commit adultery for the thrill knowing full well what they are doing. Again, you are making naïve excuses for your wife.

I pray to God that my assessment is totally off base, but my spider senses are tingling.


----------



## lost in Iowa

Thorburn said:


> Lost, I have read most of your posts. I am going to lay out some of my credentials for you. I sat on Army promotion boards and never once met the soldiers. Just read personnel folders. It did not matter what ratings their superiors gave them, they could have an excellent rating on every section, if there was no substance the board would rate them low. If a superior rated a soldier marginally and the substance of the rating showed excellence they scored high. I once received a marginal rating from a colonel in the competence section. Yet, I completed a Master's level course from the Naval Academy and served in a Lieutenant Colonel position (while I was a Master Sergeant) in an exercise, and was the only enlisted person to give a daily briefing to General Honore (the Ragin Cajun) during this time. My overall score for promotion was 500 points above my nearest competitor. It did not matter that I received a marginal rating from my superior, what mattered was the substance of what I did in the past year, and the record showed it.
> 
> I do assessments everyday as a psychotherapist. Today I had 5 clients, yesterday 6. In counseling I pick up clues, body language, something said or not said. I read people. When I was on Active Duty I once had to hire about 40 soldiers. I could tell within about 10 seconds of meeting a soldier whether they had the character and ability to do the job. It did not matter what was on their resume. I only ever misread one and fired him within a month. In a previous job I had to set up interviews for potential staff psychiatrists, and gave assessments to the chief of psychiatry, based upon phone calls and initial interviews. He always took my assessments at face value and never hired anyone who I thought was a dud or a nut (yes, some psychiatrists have issues).
> 
> Here is my assessment of what you have written:
> 
> 1. Your wife said that the OM's wife feels her husband has cheated on her multiple times and your statement is "He never has". Typically when a spouses' gut tells them that their spouse is cheating, you can almost always believe that the spouse is cheating. The "gut" sense, is commonly acknowledged as being pretty accurate by many experts who study or deal with infidelity. I think the OM's spouse is more accurate then either you or your wife's assessment, and she thinks he is a serial cheater.
> 
> 2. Your statement, "But he never has" (cheated). Yes he did. When people typically use the word "NEVER", it is a word a liar uses or a person is not convinced. I am not saying that the word "never" means a person is lying, but "NEVER" is one of those words that some of us know as a word, when used, to question. A typical honest reply is No, I did not do that, when someone says, "I never cheated", it is highly probable that that person is lying. Research words and phrases liars use.
> 
> 3. Your statement, *"But he never has, that is why he did not have sex with my wife when they met, he told her that if he ever did have an affair he wanted it to be with her, but he was not ready to cross than line yet. They would have if they ever met again, I know that, my wife wanted too that night, and would of if he was willing. From my readings, I have found this is normal in an affair, one or both have misgivings about crossing the line of infidelity, but if the affair continues, and they continue to meet, the line will be crossed."*
> I will state with almost 100% certainty that the first time they met they had rip roaring sex and it was not the way you are describing it, that they (he) could not cross the line. I will again say with almost 100% certainty, that their first meeting was planned, talked about, and it was all about sex. I will say they were hyper aroused from their previous conversations and their first meeting was not as timid, reserved or guilt filled as you state.
> 
> Your statement comes right out of the cheater's handbook and it is ironic that you are saying it.
> 
> 4. *I know I get killed for saying this, but I really do believe that her PA was nothing more than a mid life crisis or what ever.* You like that phrase, "I know I am going to get killed for saying this". You are excusing your wife's cheating, my friend, and it is bordering on pathological.
> 
> 5. I do not see remorse in your wife. I don't hear it in what you are writing about her. I think your wife is BS'ing you big time.
> 
> 6. You keep making up one excuse after another for your wife and the OM. Your posts scream out like a jet engine. Like I said before this borders on pathological behavior and most of the posters see it and you don't.
> 
> 
> 7. Is the A over? Is it? Ever hear of a burner phone, other email accounts, etc. I would suggest that perhaps this went underground.
> 
> 8. *No one thinks their going to be an alcoholic or drug addict, they think they can control it, but in the end, they succumb to it.*
> 
> I have done drug and alcohol counseling for years. Your statement is naïve. Some think that they won't become an addict but others don't care when they take their first hit or first drink what the outcome is. Some heroin addicts that I worked with (some are dead due to overdose) will take the strongest dose, knowing it will potentially kill them. In 1996 "Super Buick" hit the streets, basically heroin laced with Scopolamine. It was also called "Homicide". I lost "Big John" to this ****tail and "Buck" his friend knew "Big John" was dead before he hit the floor, but "Buck" shot up anyway. I helped save "Buck" and helped him get off heroin, but "Big John" died. Some folks commit adultery for the thrill knowing full well what they are doing. Again, you are making naïve excuses for your wife.
> 
> I pray to God that my assessment is totally off base, but my spider senses are tingling.


Your credentials are very impressive, if I sound like I am defending my wife, maybe I am, she is my wife.
To the quote about what he said to my wife about never fooling around, I got it from my wife, so he could have been lying to her, and her telling me what he said. But I also read the emails the day after they met, he was telling her, that he was not ready to go all the way and sleep with her. I know people think that would never happen, but why would they lie to each other in emails, that only they read? If they slept together, would he not be telling her how great it was, and how he could not wait to do it again? 

I see remorse in my wife everyday, I may not express that clearly enough, but she is. Yes, I have heard of burner phones, new gmail address ect. Let me ask you something, say it is going on, and they are still in contact. What can I do about it? I was lucky to find her first emails, she says they are not in contact, the OMW confirmed this, but that does not 100% out of the question. They could be, but they are not. How do I know that, because we talk about the affair every night, yes, my wife kept me in the dark about her Ea for four years, since I found out I am looking each and every day. If I find knowledge or the OMW does that they are still in contact, I divorce her. Simple as that, but until I find out otherwise, we will continue recovery. I know a lot of people here say divorce and do not look back, that is their opinion, nothing more. I know what is best for me and my family at this time, that is to try to make this work. If the situation changes, she cheats again, then that is it.
When you say you do not hear remorse from my wife, what more could she do? She has begged my to take her back, wanting my forgiveness, told me everything about the affair, transparent with emails, passwords everything. What more could she do? I guess I do not see how anyone can read what people post on this or any site, and come to a logical conclusion of this is what is happening and here is how you deal with it. I posted in another thread today, if my wife does not want to stay married, then there really is nothing I can do about it. It takes two to make a recovery, if either one of us give up, then it will not happen. But all of this will take time. That is all I am asking, give us time. One question, you said you were very good at reading body language, how can you do that by reading what people say on this board? When I post here, I am guarded in some ways, but in something like an email, why be guarded. The only people that was going to read them was the two of them, so why lie. Why make things up that did happen and then deny it. Why would my wife, not be telling him how great he was when they slept together? It was her telling him, it was ok, and him telling her that he was not ready. I read the emails, I suppose me saying that is defending her, but that is what they said. I use the phrase, I am going to get killed for saying that, is because way to many people on this board do attack anyone that says try to recover. Go read any thread in the this section and it always the same idea, from the same people. Divorce her and start over, she will never change, but affair couples do change and go on to have a better and stronger marriage. That is why I say what I said, people do change, we all have the ability to change, but both must want to stay married.
As for me being naïve, you said it yourself, some people either do not care or have a death wise. You are correct, they can not be saved, but how many did you save because they did care and wanted to end their addiction? A lot I would bet, people change. I suppose I am the half full type of guy, if I wasn't then I would not be able to get through this, for better or worse.
Lastly, some read my post and see anger in the way I write, its not anger, I just get tired of people jumping to their own conclusion without all the evidence. If I had not read the emails, between the two of them, I would be in divorce right now. I told my wife last night, it ironic the thing that condemned you, the emails, also saved you. They allowed me to go into their affair and see what they were doing and saying to one another. Day by day, month by month. I saw the way the emails changed, from friendship, to the chase, and finally hoping to consummate the affair, to him pulling back, and my wife slowing down. It was all there in 477 glorious emails, that I will remember for the rest of our marriage or until I can put in behind us and move on.


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## Thorburn

lost in Iowa said:


> Your credentials are very impressive, if I sound like I am defending my wife, maybe I am, she is my wife.
> To the quote about what he said to my wife about never fooling around, I got it from my wife, so he could have been lying to her, and her telling me what he said. But I also read the emails the day after they met, he was telling her, that he was not ready to go all the way and sleep with her. I know people think that would never happen, but why would they lie to each other in emails, that only they read? If they slept together, would he not be telling her how great it was, and how he could not wait to do it again?
> 
> I see remorse in my wife everyday, I may not express that clearly enough, but she is. Yes, I have heard of burner phones, new gmail address ect. Let me ask you something, say it is going on, and they are still in contact. What can I do about it? I was lucky to find her first emails, she says they are not in contact, the OMW confirmed this, but that does not 100% out of the question. They could be, but they are not. How do I know that, because we talk about the affair every night, yes, my wife kept me in the dark about her Ea for four years, since I found out I am looking each and every day. If I find knowledge or the OMW does that they are still in contact, I divorce her. Simple as that, but until I find out otherwise, we will continue recovery. I know a lot of people here say divorce and do not look back, that is their opinion, nothing more. I know what is best for me and my family at this time, that is to try to make this work. If the situation changes, she cheats again, then that is it.
> When you say you do not hear remorse from my wife, what more could she do? She has begged my to take her back, wanting my forgiveness, told me everything about the affair, transparent with emails, passwords everything. What more could she do? I guess I do not see how anyone can read what people post on this or any site, and come to a logical conclusion of this is what is happening and here is how you deal with it. I posted in another thread today, if my wife does not want to stay married, then there really is nothing I can do about it. It takes two to make a recovery, if either one of us give up, then it will not happen. But all of this will take time. That is all I am asking, give us time. One question, you said you were very good at reading body language, how can you do that by reading what people say on this board? When I post here, I am guarded in some ways, but in something like an email, why be guarded. The only people that was going to read them was the two of them, so why lie. Why make things up that did happen and then deny it. Why would my wife, not be telling him how great he was when they slept together? It was her telling him, it was ok, and him telling her that he was not ready. I read the emails, I suppose me saying that is defending her, but that is what they said. I use the phrase, I am going to get killed for saying that, is because way to many people on this board do attack anyone that says try to recover. Go read any thread in the this section and it always the same idea, from the same people. Divorce her and start over, she will never change, but affair couples do change and go on to have a better and stronger marriage. That is why I say what I said, people do change, we all have the ability to change, but both must want to stay married.
> As for me being naïve, you said it yourself, some people either do not care or have a death wise. You are correct, they can not be saved, but how many did you save because they did care and wanted to end their addiction? A lot I would bet, people change. I suppose I am the half full type of guy, if I wasn't then I would not be able to get through this, for better or worse.
> Lastly, some read my post and see anger in the way I write, its not anger, I just get tired of people jumping to their own conclusion without all the evidence. If I had not read the emails, between the two of them, I would be in divorce right now. I told my wife last night, it ironic the thing that condemned you, the emails, also saved you. They allowed me to go into their affair and see what they were doing and saying to one another. Day by day, month by month. I saw the way the emails changed, from friendship, to the chase, and finally hoping to consummate the affair, to him pulling back, and my wife slowing down. It was all there in 477 glorious emails, that I will remember for the rest of our marriage or until I can put in behind us and move on.


Lost, IMO this is one of the clearer post you have made to date and it does clear up quite a bit of my doubt about the track in which you are heading. You filled in some of the gaps.

R is a difficult road.


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## ButtPunch

Lost

I am pro-marriage and pro-reconciliation when the circumstances warrant it. However, nine
times out of 10 here on TAM we have a unremorseful cheater and a doormat spouse. Thorburn and I are both 
reconciled with our spouses. It can be done but the cheater has to swallow their pride and quite 
frankly most will not and do not even care enough about their betrayed spouse to do anything more than to offer lip service. Good Luck


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## lost in Iowa

ButtPunch said:


> Lost
> 
> I am pro-marriage and pro-reconciliation when the circumstances warrant it. However, nine
> times out of 10 here on TAM we have a unremorseful cheater and a doormat spouse. Thorburn and I are both
> reconciled with our spouses. It can be done but the cheater has to swallow their pride and quite
> frankly most will not and do not even care enough about their betrayed spouse to do anything more than to offer lip service. Good Luck


I do not think we have a lot of doormat spouses here, they are confused, hurt, angry and asking themselves "how can the person they love, be doing this to them?" I have found many studies that show that woman, unless they just want out of the marriage, will not leave their husband, unless the OM will be there for them when they leave. If that is the case, then the marriage is most likely doomed. Only twenty percent of marriages started from an affair are successful, unless the AP is an old flame from the past. Just because a person is hurting, does not mean they are a doormat, they just need time to think, "what do I want?" The WP also must want the same thing, if they both do, then their marriage can recover, its not going to be easy, as you know, but the odds say it can happen. I guess I see to many posts on this board talking about how the WW is disrespecting the spouse, or she enjoyed being with the OP. Its an affair, sad truth, affairs are exciting, it a drug that they are both enjoying, but when you confront the WW, maybe she may get a glimpse of what she is loosing and come back. She has to want to make the marriage work also, give it a chance, what do you to lose. If she comes back great, if not, then you can at least say to yourself you tried. Thereby starting to regain your emotional balance and self worth.


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## ButtPunch

lost in Iowa said:


> I do not think we have a lot of doormat spouses here, they are confused, hurt, angry and asking themselves "how can the person they love, be doing this to them?" I have found many studies that show that woman, unless they just want out of the marriage, will not leave their husband, unless the OM will be there for them when they leave. If that is the case, then the marriage is most likely doomed. Only twenty percent of marriages started from an affair are successful, unless the AP is an old flame from the past. Just because a person is hurting, does not mean they are a doormat, they just need time to think, "what do I want?" The WP also must want the same thing, if they both do, then their marriage can recover, its not going to be easy, as you know, but the odds say it can happen. I guess I see to many posts on this board talking about how the WW is disrespecting the spouse, or she enjoyed being with the OP. Its an affair, sad truth, affairs are exciting, it a drug that they are both enjoying, but when you confront the WW, maybe she may get a glimpse of what she is loosing and come back. She has to want to make the marriage work also, give it a chance, what do you to lose. If she comes back great, if not, then you can at least say to yourself you tried. Thereby starting to regain your emotional balance and self worth.


I am very familiar with the shock a BS feels. I do believe reconciliation can work with a remorseful ws and a forgiving bs. However do not tell me there isn't a bunch of nice guys on this board with abusive wives with narcissistic tendencies who quite frankly just need to get a divorce.


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## ButtPunch

Let me make this clear. I haven't read your thread and I am
not calling you a doormat. I was speaking in general from my 
many years of TAM.


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## lost in Iowa

ButtPunch said:


> I am very familiar with the shock a BS feels. I do believe reconciliation can work with a remorseful ws and a forgiving bs. However do not tell me there isn't a bunch of nice guys on this board with abusive wives with narcissistic tendencies who quite frankly just need to get a divorce.


I am not saying every marriage can be saved or even should be. Some people are better off going their separate ways. But I see a lot of men and woman, just finding out their spouse cheated on them, and people are immediately saying divorce them and go on with your life. You deserve better than a cheating spouse. I am not condoning cheating, but we all know it happens, it's one of the worst things a person can do to one they love. Maybe we just all need to give the BS a little time, and ask them what they want, what does the WS want? Then direct them on a path to achieve those goals. If it is divorce, lawyer up and go for it, but if it recovery, then do everything in your power to make the marriage work. Some see my position as a sign of weakness, of being cuckold or things like that, its not. Its trying to make the best of a ****ty situation. Then going on from there.


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## ButtPunch

I think the general TAM consensus is proceed with the divorce until the 
WW shows true remorse. Then the divorce can be stopped. The filing
of divorce is a form of emotional communication that resonates with the 
WS. It allows the BS to be in control of his/her life and not be under the thumb
of the WS any longer. It lets him regain just a little dignity and self respect that 
the WS destroyed.


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## lost in Iowa

ButtPunch said:


> I think the general TAM consensus is proceed with the divorce until the
> WW shows true remorse. Then the divorce can be stopped. The filing
> of divorce is a form of emotional communication that resonates with the
> WS. It allows the BS to be in control of his/her life and not be under the thumb
> of the WS any longer. It lets him regain just a little dignity and self respect that
> the WS destroyed.


I am not opposed to seeking legal advise, you should, but how many people on here can afford to spend thousands of dollars in legal fees. I suppose if you want out, its well worth it, but if you trying to recover, would not that money be better spent on the marriage? I know a couple that the wife filed, before the court date was set, he said he wanted it work it out. Just for her to talk to her lawyer and file the divorce papers, her bill was $6,000, that would not include any lawyer fees he accrued. For most of us, that is an lot of money to just prove a point, that being I will divorce you, if you do not change.


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## turnera

Wasn't it you that I gave a link to for filling out your own papers for free?


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## lost in Iowa

turnera said:


> Wasn't it you that I gave a link to for filling out your own papers for free?


Yes, I went to the link, and the first thing it said was to contact a lawyer if you have children. In a divorce, it would be best to seek legal counsel. We are not divorcing, but in recovery. I was just trying to make my point that in most cases, it is not cheap.


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## eric1

Iowa,
Given that your wife has cheated on you a number of times and you've been very clear that a subsequent failing with have permanent repercussions, have you brought up the possibility of a post-nuptual contact so that you both have an equal amount of skin in the game?


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## turnera

lost in Iowa said:


> Yes, I went to the link, and the first thing it said was to contact a lawyer if you have children. In a divorce, it would be best to seek legal counsel. We are not divorcing, but in recovery. I was just trying to make my point that in most cases, it is not cheap.


OMG, how dense can one be? 

The point of printing out a form and handing her a copy is NOT TO FINALIZE a divorce. It is to SHOW HER that you WILL go forward if she cheats again. It is for effect. I TOLD you that.

Who cares if you end up needing a different PIECE OF PAPER later on if she cheats again? Showing her a PIECE OF PAPER right now will simply tell her that you MEAN it. We are all telling you that SHE DOESN'T BELIEVE THAT YOU MEAN IT.


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## aine

lost in Iowa said:


> I know what is best for me and my family at this time, that is to try to make this work. If the situation changes, she cheats again, then that is it.
> Go read any thread in the this section and it always the same idea, from the same people. Divorce her and start over, she will never change, but affair couples do change and go on to have a better and stronger marriage. That is why I say what I said, people do change, we all have the ability to change, but both must want to stay married..


Lost, you also have to note too that there are many in TAM who have also been through infidelity and decided to stay (for various reasons). I am one of them and we are still together though things have not been rosy. You ask for people's opinions, they give them and you are setting out to justify why they are wrong and you are right. Only you know how you feel, only you know the extent of what happened, only you know how much you can take, etc. You do not have to justify your decisions to anyone here, you do what you think is best. Maybe some will not agree with you but they are entitled to their opinions. 
You can still use TAM as a sounding board, to think through and discuss your thoughts but ultimately you must make the decision.

On another note, the more prolonged an affair, the more prolonged the deception (in your case 4 years) the worse it is because it tells you how far your WW was prepared to take it and deceive you. To my mind a one night stand though terrible it less deceptive and could be a really bad choice made in the spur of the moment, but an ongoing affair, well there was plenty of time for self reflection and consideration of possible impacts/damage.

It appears you have made up your mind, so I would suggest you move this to Reconciliation, maybe that thread will be more productive for you.


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## lost in Iowa

eric1 said:


> Iowa,
> Given that your wife has cheated on you a number of times and you've been very clear that a subsequent failing with have permanent repercussions, have you brought up the possibility of a post-nuptual contact so that you both have an equal amount of skin in the game?


My wife has an EA and a PA, right now we are doing very well, talking more, she is very, very remorseful. So no, have not given any thought to a post-nupt. I would be better off finically in a divorce, she knows that. There would be no child support or alimony. Tonight, I asked her, if I had told her the first time, I would divorce you if you ever do this again, would you have an the Ea. Her response, was no, so that was my fault. I should have been harder the first time, maybe there would not have been the EA. But who knows, she was hurting and looking for friendship, so one can not tell. Does not matter, we are were we are, and will go on from here.


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## lost in Iowa

turnera said:


> OMG, how dense can one be?
> 
> The point of printing out a form and handing her a copy is NOT TO FINALIZE a divorce. It is to SHOW HER that you WILL go forward if she cheats again. It is for effect. I TOLD you that.
> 
> Who cares if you end up needing a different PIECE OF PAPER later on if she cheats again? Showing her a PIECE OF PAPER right now will simply tell her that you MEAN it. We are all telling you that SHE DOESN'T BELIEVE THAT YOU MEAN IT.


chill out OK, you gave me the email, I think you for that, 
Sorry, I miss understood what you were saying. I went to the site, and the thought of printing off the sheet and giving it to her, did not cross my mind. She knows if she does anything like this again, we are through. I suppose in the end, she does not want to be with me. I keep saying its her choice, I want to make this work, she says she does also. If she changes her mind, then we are done. How does scaring her anymore giving her a piece of paper help with that. She knows, and says she understands. I am not really worried about her cheating again, that will just show me, she does not want to continue to be married to me. The thing is the OM is out, I think people here seem to think her EA was with someone in her office or close by. The guy lives and works a thousand miles away. Do I think my wife, would give up her kids and grandkids to move to East Coast, no I do not. His job would stop him from moving to the Midwest, and he also would be moving away from his kids. Children make a huge difference in where a person would move.


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## barbados

lost in Iowa said:


> My wife has an EA and a PA, right now we are doing very well, talking more, she is very, very remorseful. So no, have not given any thought to a post-nupt. I would be better off finically in a divorce, she knows that. There would be no child support or alimony. *Tonight, I asked her, if I had told her the first time, I would divorce you if you ever do this again, would you have an the Ea. Her response, was no, so that was my fault. I should have been harder the first time, maybe there would not have been the EA. * But who knows, she was hurting and looking for friendship, so one can not tell. Does not matter, we are were we are, and will go on from here.


So now its YOUR FAULT she cheated again ? REALLY ? 

You cannot be serious.


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## lost in Iowa

aine said:


> Lost, you also have to note too that there are many in TAM who have also been through infidelity and decided to stay (for various reasons). I am one of them and we are still together though things have not been rosy. You ask for people's opinions, they give them and you are setting out to justify why they are wrong and you are right. Only you know how you feel, only you know the extent of what happened, only you know how much you can take, etc. You do not have to justify your decisions to anyone here, you do what you think is best. Maybe some will not agree with you but they are entitled to their opinions.
> You can still use TAM as a sounding board, to think through and discuss your thoughts but ultimately you must make the decision.
> 
> On another note, the more prolonged an affair, the more prolonged the deception (in your case 4 years) the worse it is because it tells you how far your WW was prepared to take it and deceive you. To my mind a one night stand though terrible it less deceptive and could be a really bad choice made in the spur of the moment, but an ongoing affair, well there was plenty of time for self reflection and consideration of possible impacts/damage.
> 
> It appears you have made up your mind, so I would suggest you move this to Reconciliation, maybe that thread will be more productive for you.


I agree with a lot you said, people that have gone through an affair are most likely to be on a site like this. I just bothers me that way to many say, just divorce her and go on. On the subject of my wives 4 year EA, reading the emails, it did not become sexual until around October of last year. Before that it was just them talking like one would to a friend. Now November and February, it had become very sexual with cybersex and exchanging of photos. I will say, when I read the first email dated April of 2014, I just thought she had found a pin pal. How are you doing, here is what I am thinking, it was not sexual at all. But that would and did change. I suppose I am lucky, I do not have to listen to what she has to say about what they did and did not do, I have their record of them talking about it and describing what they are thinking and planning on doing. They only met once, my wife phone him 7 times connecting twice,and she texted him 54 times, 30 of those texts were when they cypersexed in November one night. They were talking to each other by email, I have 477 from April 2014 to when I found out and read the emails July 7th 2015. All the emails before that were deleted, the OM deleted all his emails after he had received them. The earliest emails if you read them, would give the impression, my wife was talking to a friend, nothing more.


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## lost in Iowa

barbados said:


> So now its YOUR FAULT she cheated again ? REALLY ?
> 
> You cannot be serious.


Can you show me where I said it was my fault she started her EA? I should have told her, anything like this again, we are done. That was my fault, nothing more.

No, it was not my fault, totally her choice and her fault. I am saying I should have told her, anything like this happens again, we are through. I have told her that every day since then. Please stop jumping to conclusions, and take a deep breath, and reread what I wrote.


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## sapientia

Iowa - I respect you for trying to make it work. I think it speaks well to your commitment to your marriage. As I said before, *if* you can be happy moving forward, and salvaging your decades together, then kudos to you. Some marriages do survive infidelity and are stronger for it.

The other point I respect about you is your posts speak to your knowledge that no marriage is perfect. EA/PA rarely happens in a vacuum. It doesn't excuse the cheater, but only very rarely on this site will you see a BS admit his or her part in whatever marriage distress resulted in the cheating. Some accept cheating it b/c they have low self-esteem, and that's not healthy. I suspect you are one of the rarer sorts that acknowledges your part and is prepared to meet your wife partway to heal your marriage.

Sending positive hopes your way for success.
- Sapi


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## lost in Iowa

sapientia said:


> Iowa - I respect you for trying to make it work. I think it speaks well to your commitment to your marriage. As I said before, *if* you can be happy moving forward, and salvaging your decades together, then kudos to you. Some marriages do survive infidelity and are stronger for it.
> 
> The other point I respect about you is your posts speak to your knowledge that no marriage is perfect. EA/PA rarely happens in a vacuum. It doesn't excuse the cheater, but only very rarely on this site will you see a BS admit his or her part in whatever marriage distress resulted in the cheating. Some accept cheating it b/c they have low self-esteem, and that's not healthy. I suspect you are one of the rarer sorts that acknowledges your part and is prepared to meet your wife partway to heal your marriage.
> 
> Sending positive hopes your way for success.
> - Sapi


Thank you, but sometimes I think of what my wife did to me is Karma getting back at me for what I did to her. Two or in our case three wrongs do not make a right. Both of us realize that now, actually things between us are better than they ever have been. I told my wife tonight, as we sat on the love seat "its good to have you back" her reply, "it feels good to be back." We are trying, are we into the safe harbor yet, nope, but we can see it on the horizon. We will get their if both of us want it bad enough. If not, I can go my own way with the knowledge I did everything in my power to save our marriage.


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## carmen ohio

Dear liI,

You have every right to handle your marital problems any way you like, including ignoring much of the advice you have received on TAM/CWI. But my sense is that you misunderstand what a lot of people are trying to tell you, perhaps because it was not delivered with the proper degree of sensitivity and perhaps because you are a bit overly sensitive, or perhaps for both reasons. In any case, let me try another approach.

In your post #506, you complain . . .



lost in Iowa said:


> I suppose it just rubs me the wrong way when people say I am enabling my wife, she cheated once with her PA and again with her EA, and therefore she will again. If she does, we are through, how many times do I have to state it. I know, there are some on this board that will say, "he does not mean it, he will take her back, just like he did before." That is not true in any way. If she does this again, we are done, if she cannot control her urge or whatever it is we are through. If in her depression, she feels the need to see, talk or **** or what ever another man, I divorce her. This is her third and last chance . . .


The reason why people question your resolve to D your WW if she cheats again is because you also say things like this . . .



lost in Iowa said:


> We have been married for 36 years, wife had an affair five years ago, pretty sure she only slept with the guy one time, went through counseling and have been trying to do my best to make my wife feel special, and show how much I love and need her . . .


and this . . .



lost in Iowa said:


> . . . This would still be going on, if I had not discovered her other email account. I will say, there are times, I wish I never had, what is the saying, ignorance is blessed? She would have never left me for him, and I would not be going through this heart break. She never would have told me, and taken her EA to her grave. Now since I know, its a chance to rebuild our marriage and make it affair proof.


and this . . .



lost in Iowa said:


> . . . Last night, as we sat on the couch, she stated crying, I asked her "why are you crying?" and she said, "I am afraid I am going to **** this up by not saying the right thing, and you will leave." I told her, "only one thing will cause me to leave, that is if you start your Ea or anything like it again." . . .


People who react to infidelity

- by trying to make the WS _"feel special"_ or

- by wishing they had never found out or

- by forgiving a WS, who has cheated twice and once for four years, barely a month after finding out about the second, four year long infidelity

do not inspire confidence and therefore are doubted when they claim they intend to act with resolve the _'next time'_ their spouse cheats.

I could give many more examples of things you have said that raise doubts about your preparedness to divorce your WW if she cheats again but there is no point. You either accept what many people who have experience in these matters say as carrying at least some element of truth, or not. It's entirely up to you.

Assuming you are willing to entertain the possibility that the people here who are challenging you may have a point, let's consider what they are and are not advising you to do.

For the most part, people here are not telling you to kick your WW to the curb, D her and never have anything more to do with her. Rather, they are recommending that you do things to emphasize to her the seriousness of her betrayal and to engender in her a belief that you really will leave her if it ever happens again.

Your response to this is mainly to emphasize that your WW is demonstrating remorse and doing what she can to rebuild your trust. For example, you have recited a laundry list of these things in your post #507 and, truthfully, it is impressive. But what strikes me about the post and leads me to believe that you misunderstand a lot of the advice you are getting is how you open and close the comment . . .



lost in Iowa said:


> Ok, great point, what should she do? . . .
> 
> What more should she do?


She could be doing everything right and nevertheless cheat on you again. You understand and accept this, as you must if you wish to R. But what you don't seem to understand or accept is that what you do and don't do in response to her infidelity is just as important. Especially given that this is your WW's second and most egregious act of betrayal, failure to respond appropriately and forcefully could increase the chances of her cheating again. This, I believe, is what people are trying to tell you, along with advice about what more you should do.

Let's explore this idea a little more by considering some advice farsidejunky gave you, and your reaction:



lost in Iowa said:


> Quote: Originally Posted by *farsidejunky*
> _Good. Now, how would telling your wife that you were planning a trip to Vegas, with the requisite pit stop at a brothel, possibly inspire empathy?_
> 
> 
> 
> It would allow her to see how I felt when she told me the reason for her first affair. Now how does that help me, she has repeatedly told me she is sorry for her actions, and how they have hurt me. How does this test by me help our recovery? It doesn't, it just gets us side tracked, but I will ask her the question, when she comes home.
Click to expand...

You correctly perceived that raising the issue of a RA would give your WW insight into your reaction to her first affair, but failed to perceive that raising issues like this also tend to raise the WS's concern that the BS may react to the WS's infidelity in a manner that causes serious, negative consequences for the WS. That's the point that farsidejunky and many other posters are trying to get you to understand -- you can decrease the chance of a third infidelity and increase the likelihood of a successful R by doing things that cause your WW concern that you really are at the end of your rope and that one more slip up, even a small one, spells the end of the marriage.

I thought alte Dame said it best . . .



alte Dame said:


> . . . I have to say, with all due respect and care, that I think your WW is simply too comfortable to make your reconciliation a very healthy one.
> 
> She is a cake-eater and you have never denied her the cake from your plate. She has suffered essentially no consequences. She is comfortable in the security of a marriage with a husband who puts her first and spends his time puzzling out her psyche and motivations. She is comfortable seeking out other people to make her feel extra desirable and special. They feed her cake, too, and she loves it.
> 
> I think that she regrets what she has done, but hasn't broken through her own concern for her comfort to actually feel caring and empathy for you. This bespeaks a selfishness that is not good for reconciliation.
> 
> Truly, has she taken care of YOU? Has she cared for YOUR heart?
> 
> *She needs some real consequences, in my opinion, in order to shake her out of her comfortable self-absorption . . .*


My advice (which I gave once before) is that you take alte Dame's words to heart and ask yourself what consequences you have given your WW that would give her cause for concern that, if she cheats again, you will go through with your threat to D her. You might start by doing what turnera recommended in her post #585 -- fill out a divorce petition and show it to your WW. IIWY, I would also retract your promise only to D her if you catch her cheating again, and make it clear that she must also continue to act in manner that rebuilds trust if she wishes her marriage to continue.

Will your R prove unsuccessful if you don't take additional steps to ensure that your WW believes your threats to D her _'next time'_? No one can say. Will the likelihood of a successful R be increased if you do convince her that you really mean it _'this time'_? I don't think there is any reason to doubt this.

I hope this post is helpful to you and, whatever you decide to do, I wish you well.


----------



## turnera

carmen ohio said:


> The reason why people question your resolve to D your WW if she cheats again is because you also say things like this . . .
> 
> People who react to infidelity
> 
> - by trying to make the WS _"feel special"_ or
> 
> - by wishing they had never found out or
> 
> - by forgiving a WS, who has cheated twice and once for four years, barely a month after finding out about the second, four year long infidelity
> 
> do not inspire confidence and therefore are doubted when they claim they intend to act with resolve the _'next time'_ their spouse cheats.
> 
> I could give many more examples of things you have said that raise doubts about your preparedness to divorce your WW if she cheats again but there is no point. You either accept what many people who have experience in these matters say as carrying at least some element of truth, or not.


This.

It's basic psychology. Just like cheaters have a script - a psychological script that they all follow for the same psychological reasons - they also follow a script AFTER the affair is discovered. In all my years doing this, I can think of only two couples who survived without the BS saying he/she has one foot out the door and will not even decide if they're staying. The cheater simply MUST hear that, or they can't begin to see the gravity of the situation, can't start fearing losing their spouse. Psychologically.

Your wife is SAYING she's scared of losing you. Hopefully it's working. Just keep making sure she knows you haven't let down your guard.


----------



## lost in Iowa

by trying to make the WS "feel special" or

- by wishing they had never found out or

- by forgiving a WS, who has cheated twice and once for four years, barely a month after finding out about the second, four year long infidelity

do not inspire confidence and therefore are doubted when they claim they intend to act with resolve the 'next time' their spouse cheats.

I could give many more examples of things you have said that raise doubts about your preparedness to divorce your WW if she cheats again but there is no point. You either accept what many people who have experience in these matters say as carrying at least some element of truth, or not. It's entirely up to you.

Let me go through the three things listed.

1. Making my wife feel special, some times the people of this board thinks that I meant, I was waiting hand and foot on my wife. I love her so much that any and everything she does is ok with me. No, what I meant was that I thought she was going with a mid life crisis, I had an Ea 20 years before, so I was telling her, its ok, I understand. Nothing more, my mistake then was not telling her, do anything like this again and we are through. But I did not and regret that decision. This time I have told her everyday since then, your are out of free chances, anymore we are done.

2. Wish I did not know about her EA. Through my readings I have found this to be a very common emotion by the BS, they thought they had a good marriage, no hint their spouse was cheating, and then they find out and they feel overwhelmed. My wife was having a internet EA, this was not someone at work, she was not talking about a great guy this person was, she had never mentioned his name until I found the emails between them and confronted her. Yes, I felt better about my marriage two months ago, I did not know about her EA, very common. Now, since I do know, again, she has stopped all communication and has recommitted back to myself and our daughter.

3. Forgive within a month. Forgiving is part of the healing process, and does not mean forgetting or giving her a pass on what she did. Forgiving means that I have accepted what you did, and do not hate you for it. That does not mean its ok, we are over the problem. just the opposite, we are working through our problems. If one can not forgive, they will never recover the marriage. You must be able to hear them say, they made a mistake, and want to be with you, and the BS must hear and accept that, and try to work together to get over the affair. 

Last thing, for the gal that thought my wife was a "cake eater" uncaring, spoiled woman sitting on a pedestal that needs to be worshiped by afar, is all wrong. My wife made two horrible mistakes, she did not have proper walls set up between outsiders and our marriage. We are working on those walls now. This is not and will never be a completed project, it will be years before I think my wife will never cheat again. Only by proving to me that she is not cheating will this nightmare finally end. Affairs are a selfish act, the person having the affair, rarely worries about how their actions are going to hurt the marriage, they get enjoyment from the other person. Think about this for a second, if the affair was horrible for the person having the affair, they would stop. Why do they continue seeing the AP, because it is enjoyable, they fill something in their soul that there spouse can not, or does not. Or maybe they are just bored with their life and want an escape from reality. It does not matter, why the are there, but show me one person having an affair that hates it, and you will have something. Only when the affair is over, and the fog has cleared, do they realize what they have done, and what it could or did cost them.


----------



## lost in Iowa

turnera said:


> This.
> 
> It's basic psychology. Just like cheaters have a script - a psychological script that they all follow for the same psychological reasons - they also follow a script AFTER the affair is discovered. In all my years doing this, I can think of only two couples who survived without the BS saying he/she has one foot out the door and will not even decide if they're staying. The cheater simply MUST hear that, or they can't begin to see the gravity of the situation, can't start fearing losing their spouse. Psychologically.
> 
> Your wife is SAYING she's scared of losing you. Hopefully it's working. Just keep making sure she knows you haven't let down your guard.


Thank you, and I have not let my guard down, I stared back to work yesterday, when I had a free moment I used that time to look at our new cell phone bill. No calls or texts that would have been him. Thanks again.


----------



## happy as a clam

lost in Iowa said:


> ...when I had a free moment I used that time to look at our new cell phone bill. *No calls or texts that would have been him.* Thanks again.


Two words: Burner. Phone.

Two more: Snap. Chat.


----------



## lost in Iowa

happy as a clam said:


> Two words: Burner. Phone.
> 
> Two more: Snap. Chat.


Well you could be right, I checked her purse, did not fine one, so I went to her office last week, and told her I needed to look through her desk. Did not find anything, I suppose she could have hide in one of the file cabinets, I did not look through them. Look the point is this, is she is still cheating or cheats again, we are done. Plain and simple, she has been told that everyday for the past six weeks. I suppose if she cheats, she has made her choice and I divorce her.


----------



## Dyokemm

LiI,

I think you are following a plan and making progress....most important you seem to have your guard up and are not giving much trust to your WW this early into the aftermath.

Some people think you should be taking a harsher line with her (and since she is a serial cheater, I do see their points) but you are taking the advice and steps that make sense to you right now.

Just stay focused and strong and avoid any rugsweeping at all.

In truth, if there is any nagging thought at the back of my mind about your situation, it is this.

POSOM 2 had a burner phone....usually a clear sign of an experienced cheater...yet everything that you have heard from your WW is how he seemed unsure of himself and even reluctant when they met, so nothing beyond a make-out session happened.

Those two facts just seem so incongruous to me.

You have found no other evidence that she is being dishonest on this, I know....and lacking further evidence there is no call for confronting her or calling bullsh*t on this.

But this odd fact still makes me curious....it just doesn't match.


----------



## bfree

Dyokemm said:


> LiI,
> 
> I think you are following a plan and making progress....most important you seem to have your guard up and are not giving much trust to your WW this early into the aftermath.
> 
> Some people think you should be taking a harsher line with her (and since she is a serial cheater, I do see their points) but you are taking the advice and steps that make sense to you right now.
> 
> Just stay focused and strong and avoid any rugsweeping at all.
> 
> In truth, if there is any nagging thought at the back of my mind about your situation, it is this.
> 
> POSOM 2 had a burner phone....usually a clear sign of an experienced cheater...yet everything that you have heard from your WW is how he seemed unsure of himself and even reluctant when they met, so nothing beyond a make-out session happened.
> 
> Those two facts just seem so incongruous to me.
> 
> You have found no other evidence that she is being dishonest on this, I know....and lacking further evidence there is no call for confronting her or calling bullsh*t on this.
> 
> But this odd fact still makes me curious....it just doesn't match.


Unless she bought him the burner phone.


----------



## carmen ohio

lost in Iowa said:


> Well you could be right, I checked her purse, did not fine one, so I went to her office last week, and told her I needed to look through her desk. Did not find anything, I suppose she could have hide in one of the file cabinets, I did not look through them. Look the point is this, is she is still cheating or cheats again, we are done. Plain and simple, she has been told that everyday for the past six weeks. I suppose if she cheats, she has made her choice and I divorce her.


FWIW, one of the most common places to hide a burner phone is in the trunk of one's car. However, my guess is she's being good now and is genuinely trying to fix her marriage. My concern is what she does in a couple of years, when the your guard is down and her _'urge'_ returns.


----------



## bandit.45

lost in Iowa said:


> chill out OK, you gave me the email, I think you for that,



When you accept that Turnera is the boss life will become easier.


----------



## lost in Iowa

carmen ohio said:


> FWIW, one of the most common places to hide a burner phone is in the trunk of one's car. However, my guess is she's being good now and is genuinely trying to fix her marriage. My concern is what she does in a couple of years, when the your guard is down and her _'urge'_ returns.


I drive the car, she drive the mini van, not many places you can hide a phone in a mini van. You said the "urge' to cheat, you make it sound like she is addicted to cheating, and she will do it again and again. If she does, it will be doing it by herself if I find out. I think sometimes people get caught up in these grand conspiracies , when in most cases its really quite simple. On the guys phone, I did a google search of the number and paid a service to check the number out. Both came back with the same information the phone was under two different people, one in the deep south, and the other on the east coast. It could have been his work phone, but seems like a risk to be using a work phone for personal business. He did not use his personal cell phone. I know I may be foolish here, but is it that crazy to believe that the EA is over and they are not talking. From reading his emails, that would be in character with him, shy, unsure type guy, my wife described him as a dweeb. He never did strike me as the type of person that would be a rule breaker. An example I would give is he had found a car he was interested in buying, and didn't because his wife would throw a fit if he did. A strong male, would have just bought the car, he did not. Maybe I am all wrong here, but I think he wanted friendship, and they found each other and it went from there. It was a very slow process, they were talking three and half years before it became sexual.


----------



## Dyokemm

LiI,

Yeah...you could be right.

This guy just could be 'the exception that proves the rule', as the saying goes.

Burner phones (like OM's) just usually are such a giant red-flag of a cheater who has a lot of previous experience.

For example, there was a poster named D-Day on here a year ago.

He caught his WW passed out with her burner in her hand.

Sure enough, he eventually discovered that the A he initially caught was not her first rodeo.


----------



## lost in Iowa

Dyokemm said:


> LiI,
> 
> Yeah...you could be right.
> 
> This guy just could be 'the exception that proves the rule', as the saying goes.
> 
> Burner phones (like OM's) just usually are such a giant red-flag of a cheater who has a lot of previous experience.
> 
> For example, there was a poster named D-Day on here a year ago.
> 
> He caught his WW passed out with her burner in her hand.
> 
> Sure enough, he eventually discovered that the A he initially caught was not her first rodeo.


I would agree the phone does and is bad, but he would have to call her cell phone, that gave me the number. In the emails, he did say he had never done anything like this, may be true, he may have been lying. But if he was, then why did he not sleep with her the one time they met. My wife wanted and hoped he would, but the emails prove they didn't. I will say the emails make him out to be a guy that just got caught up something, and while he was enjoying it, I am not sure if he would not of been just as happy talking to my wife about their problems. It was my wife that was chasing him, not the other way around. I think and hope its over, she is doing the things I ask of her, now will that continue forever, I have no clue. I am a lot more on guard now than four years ago.


----------



## turnera

bandit.45 said:


> When you accept that Turnera is the boss life will become easier.


lol

Some day, we need to meet up. Since you live in my town now. Do you like electronics? My H will talk your ears off.


----------



## turnera

lost in Iowa said:


> You said the "urge' to cheat, you make it sound like she is addicted to cheating, and she will do it again and again.


Look, I know you're on the right track. So take this with a grain of salt.

Psychologically, she WILL cheat again if she isn't dealing with consequences for a long enough period to permanently change her outlook on life. The ONLY way we change is by facing a consequence; erego, AVOIDING the consequences for the future. Just make sure that stays in her mind. For, oh, the next 10 years, she MUST still see that you are willing to walk if things slide backwards. You don't have to beat her over the head with it, but DO keep it in the back of your mind, and any times in the future that you have an opportunity to bring it up, do so.


----------



## lost in Iowa

turnera said:


> Look, I know you're on the right track. So take this with a grain of salt.
> 
> Psychologically, she WILL cheat again if she isn't dealing with consequences for a long enough period to permanently change her outlook on life. The ONLY way we change is by facing a consequence; erego, AVOIDING the consequences for the future. Just make sure that stays in her mind. For, oh, the next 10 years, she MUST still see that you are willing to walk if things slide backwards. You don't have to beat her over the head with it, but DO keep it in the back of your mind, and any times in the future that you have an opportunity to bring it up, do so.


I agree, that is why we have spent a lot of time talking about personal and private barriers, and how important they are. Her councilor has also been hitting the barriers issue hard. I do bring up me walking away a lot, basically every day at least once. I think we are doing ok, but if you asked me about my marriage two months ago, I would have also said we are ok. I suppose that is what makes an internet EA so difficult to deal with. The OM was not someone at the office, or a guy in town. He was a person on the internet. Even now, when I ask her if what she did was wrong, her response is , "yes, it was wrong, the photos were way out of line, and so was meeting him, but I was just looking for a friend, just talking to someone about my problems. " I tell her, now talk to your counselor, he is a doctor, I am sure he will give better advise. It just blows my mind she could be talking to his for around four years, and never gave out the slightest hint of what she was doing. Never mentioned the guys name or nothing, I just do not know how she could send him an email or some of those photos I viewed, and then look and be with me, and not feel guilt or see that what she was doing was wrong. Especially the photos and the sexting by text. I would never believe she was capable of that for four years, but I read the emails and saw the photos.


----------



## bandit.45

turnera said:


> lol
> 
> Some day, we need to meet up. Since you live in my town now. Do you like electronics? My H will talk your ears off.


No I do not like electronics. I like gizmos, but care not for what make them work. 

We cannot meet. I want you to keep the mental vision of me that you presently have intact. I'm afraid I would disappoint you.


----------



## turnera

lol, I was thinking the same thing.


----------



## bandit.45

I think I was just insulted.


----------



## Nucking Futs

lost in Iowa said:


> I agree, that is why we have spent a lot of time talking about personal and private barriers, and how important they are. Her councilor has also been hitting the barriers issue hard. I do bring up me walking away a lot, basically every day at least once. I think we are doing ok, but if you asked me about my marriage two months ago, I would have also said we are ok. I suppose that is what makes an internet EA so difficult to deal with. The OM was not someone at the office, or a guy in town. He was a person on the internet. Even now, when I ask her if what she did was wrong, her response is , "yes, it was wrong, the photos were way out of line, and so was meeting him, but I was just looking for a friend, just talking to someone about my problems. " I tell her, now talk to your counselor, he is a doctor, I am sure he will give better advise. It just blows my mind she could be talking to his for around four years, and never gave out the slightest hint of what she was doing. Never mentioned the guys name or nothing, I just do not know how she could send him an email or some of those photos I viewed, and then look and be with me, and not feel guilt or see that what she was doing was wrong. Especially the photos and the sexting by text. I would never believe she was capable of that for four years, but I read the emails and saw the photos.


She's still making excuses for it. You do not have true remorse, and that places you in false R.


----------



## turnera

bandit.45 said:


> I think I was just insulted.


No, thinking it about ME! lol


----------



## bandit.45

turnera said:


> No, thinking it about ME! lol


Oh!


----------



## lost in Iowa

Had another flashback today, my wife and I were sitting in the love seat, watching TV, she was drinking one of these new Root Beer Beers, I went into the other room and thought they would be really great with wiped cream. Then the flashback hit, she had sent the OM a photo of a whipped cream can and implying what they could do with it. I came back into the room and told her, she started crying and said again how sorry she was. For the next 15 minutes she just wanted to snuggle close and told me over and over again, "how could she be so stupid and she was so sorry that I have to go through this." I think we are on the right road, but its going to take time, I told her that only she can repair the damage she has done to me, and her response is "I am trying, with all of my heart." 
I did ask her Friday if he had a burner phone, and she said it was his work cell phone number that they talked on. Kind of surprised that he would use his traceable work phone the few times they talked. 
Thanks for listening. 
LII


----------



## lost in Iowa

Little update, tomorrow is my wife's and I 36 anniversary, this has been one of the most trying years of our marriage. As we sat on the loveseat talking about being together 36 years tonight, I asked my wife "did you think I was going to divorce you for your EA?" Her response was "yes".  I told her that I want to spend the rest of our lives together, but only she can insure that, the trust that I had for you is now gone, and it will take years for you to rebuild it. Sometimes I wonder if it was all worth it, all the pain that she put me through the last two months. She says she has changed and now understands that her actions can cause me pain and suffering. I reminded her tonight, that is the problem with affairs, the person having them gets all the enjoyment, the spouse all the pain. Today she met with her counselor again, it seems to be helping. I have started back to work, so I no longer have all day to sit around and worry the whys and what's of her EA. But I do still worry about her depression and how she is coping with me being gone for 12 years a day. I still love my wife deeply, but just feel that her EA has left me hollow inside. She asked me last night if so rich, good lucking woman would be out there, would I leave her for the younger woman? I told her, "I want to spend the rest of my life with you, and only your actions can change that." God I hate this feeling, why did she do this, why I am suffering for what she did? I suppose its Karma for what I did to her, but still, some days it's not easy, but our life together has never been easy. We are not the story book fairytale, we are just the couple that was like the ocean, and took each wave as another challenge to make it through. Thanks for listening. LOI


----------



## weightlifter

That can of cream still sounds more PA than EA.

Mine did EA though I caught it much earlier.
FWIW. 6 months got me past non-random triggers. After that, only when she was on her comp and only sometimes.
Now. Not much at all.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> *By Lost In Iowa*
> I still love my wife deeply, but just feel that her EA has left me hollow inside………….." God I hate this feeling, why did she do this, why I am suffering for what she did?


You are suffering because you put your heart, emotions, and self-esteem in her hands and she crushed you. She crushed you because she rejected you and replaced you with another man and that caused the damage and suffering.

You now want to R because you cannot stand any more pain and you want to recapture that security and self-esteem and that your wife will make you number one and never reject you and replace you. Your wife is a weak woman and has proved that a least twice. However, you are determined to R and that maybe the right choice for you and maybe be successful.

I am not going to tell you to not R because if you both are successful then you will have salvaged some emotional requirements that were shattered. I hope that you, at some point, realize that it is very risky to put so much of your heart, emotions, and self-esteem in the hands of your wife. Furthermore,* I hope that you build yourself up in body, mind, and emotions and spirit so that you are more self-sufficient and not so dependent on your wife for your emotional and self-esteem health.* I am not saying that you become an island, no one can do that, I am saying that your emotions and self-esteem will be much more secure and healthier when your emotions and self-esteem is mostly within yourself. If you obtain that state of being then you will not be so vulnerable to being so crushed again. 

The reality of betrayal is that you can become more aware that your state of being and contentment is mostly up to you and depending on others to a great degree is very risky.

In a good marriage, spouses can add to your contented life a lot but, they should never be the majority of your life, especially after betrayal.

Iowa, if you do it right then your suffering will subside significantly in the years to come.* I just hope that you can learn from this experience and gain in yourself.*


----------



## lost in Iowa

Mr Blunt said:


> You are suffering because you put your heart, emotions, and self-esteem in her hands and she crushed you. She crushed you because she rejected you and replaced you with another man and that caused the damage and suffering.
> 
> You now want to R because you cannot stand any more pain and you want to recapture that security and self-esteem and that your wife will make you number one and never reject you and replace you. Your wife is a weak woman and has proved that a least twice. However, you are determined to R and that maybe the right choice for you and maybe be successful.
> 
> I am not going to tell you to not R because if you both are successful then you will have salvaged some emotional requirements that were shattered. I hope that you, at some point, realize that it is very risky to put so much of your heart, emotions, and self-esteem in the hands of your wife. Furthermore,* I hope that you build yourself up in body, mind, and emotions and spirit so that you are more self-sufficient and not so dependent on your wife for your emotional and self-esteem health.* I am not saying that you become an island, no one can do that, I am saying that your emotions and self-esteem will be much more secure and healthier when your emotions and self-esteem is mostly within yourself. If you obtain that state of being then you will not be so vulnerable to being so crushed again.
> 
> The reality of betrayal is that you can become more aware that your state of being and contentment is mostly up to you and depending on others to a great degree is very risky.
> 
> In a good marriage, spouses can add to your contented life a lot but, they should never be the majority of your life, especially after betrayal.
> 
> Iowa, if you do it right then your suffering will subside significantly in the years to come.* I just hope that you can learn from this experience and gain in yourself.*


How can a person get through recovery and rebuild your marriage if I can not rely on my wife? You are correct, if she goes back to her old ways, my suffering will be worse, but I have to try. Is that not what recovery is all about, learning from your mistakes, and growing as a couple? Some people will never change, but others will, I think my wife is in the second group. She has seen all the pain her actions have caused me, she has seen what she has done to our marriage. She continues with the counseling, and I think an hope we will both benefit from it. Our old marriage has died, that does not mean that we can not be together and rebuild or restart all over again. I am willing, and so far, her actions have shown me that she is also.


----------



## sapientia

Happy belated anniversary, LIO. Wishing you and your wife peace and happiness in the years to come.

Best,
- Sapi


----------



## bandit.45

lost in Iowa said:


> How can a person get through recovery and rebuild your marriage if I can not rely on my wife? You are correct, if she goes back to her old ways, my suffering will be worse, but I have to try. Is that not what recovery is all about, learning from your mistakes, and growing as a couple? Some people will never change, but others will, I think my wife is in the second group. She has seen all the pain her actions have caused me, she has seen what she has done to our marriage. She continues with the counseling, and I think an hope we will both benefit from it. Our old marriage has died, that does not mean that we can not be together and rebuild or restart all over again. I am willing, and so far, her actions have shown me that she is also.


As usual you are being defensive and only reading half of what he told you. 

The point the we have been trying to get across to you is that it is okay to reconcile, but at the same time you need to be building up emotional independence. Enough independence to say to your WW..."hey, I love you and will work on this with you, but I have no problem walking away from it all at a moment's notice if I see you backslide." 

She has to see that you are willing to get up and walk out the door the second she stops showing remorse or empathy. 

Get this through your head: her job is to fix herself and figure out why she is so fvcked up. Your job is to heal yourself, become a self sustaining human and be a leader in your own recovery. 

Stop hedging all your bets on her.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> By *LostInIowa*
> How can a person get through recovery and rebuild your marriage if I can not rely on my wife?


A successful R does require *some *reliance on your wife.
My main point was not telling you that you should not rely on your wife to some degree but that

*



I hope that you build yourself up in body, mind, and emotions and spirit so that you are more self-sufficient and not so dependent on your wife for your emotional and self-esteem health

Click to expand...

*

Your wife is either going to:

1	Make you her number one man, to the EXCLUSIONS to all other men, and prove that by many years of actions and attitudes.


*OR*

2	She will try and be successful in R, but as years go by, she will succumb to her character flaw and weaknesses.


*If you build yourself up then you will be able to make it either way in a D or an R.*

I also believe that what 3putt said below has some truth to it and that is another reason that I think you should work on you so that you get stronger. I want you to get stronger NOT so that your R will fail or that you put no reliance in your wife but so that the balance of power is more even between you and your wife.



> *Originally Posted by 3putt*
> 
> I believe he's more afraid of losing her than he is of her cheating on him.
> 
> He's just terrified to lose her.
> 
> What's the old saying around here?
> 
> The one that is the least afraid of losing the marriage is the one that controls it.
> 
> Sounds exactly like what we have here.


----------



## lost in Iowa

bandit.45 said:


> As usual you are being defensive and only reading half of what he told you.
> 
> The point the we have been trying to get across to you is that it is okay to reconcile, but at the same time you need to be building up emotional independence. Enough independence to say to your WW..."hey, I love you and will work on this with you, but I have no problem walking away from it all at a moment's notice if I see you backslide."
> 
> She has to see that you are willing to get up and walk out the door the second she stops showing remorse or empathy.
> 
> Get this through your head: her job is to fix herself and figure out why she is so fvcked up. Your job is to heal yourself, become a self sustaining human and be a leader in your own recovery.
> 
> Stop hedging all your bets on her.


Bandit, I agree with you idea of walking away if she will not change, she knows that. I have told her that daily the past two months. But do you not think, that for reconciliation to occur, both people must be willing to depend on each other? Can I not help heal myself by being around her, and can she not fix herself by being around me? I must lead my own recovery and she must hers, but we can also rely on each other, that is the purpose of recovery, to regain what we lost. To try and find in your spouse what was missing in the life of the cheating spouse and make sure that both of you are working on fixing it. For my wife it would be her depression and dealing with that, for me it would being there, when the depression hits and listening to her. I know I said in the past I did not want to divorce, but I never said, I would never do it. That is what people hear though, you are not willing to divorce so you are at a disadvantage. I see it a different way, would I divorce her yes, would that be my first choice, no it would not. I am willing to try and work this out, if she can not or will not change, I am done. I will walk away and tell everyone, I tried. That is all that I am saying.


----------



## lost in Iowa

Mr Blunt said:


> A successful R does require *some *reliance on your wife.
> My main point was not telling you that you should not rely on your wife to some degree but that
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your wife is either going to:
> 
> 1	Make you her number one man, to the EXCLUSIONS to all other men, and prove that by many years of actions and attitudes.
> 
> 
> *OR*
> 
> 2	She will try and be successful in R, but as years go by, she will succumb to her character flaw and weaknesses.
> 
> 
> *If you build yourself up then you will be able to make it either way in a D or an R.*
> 
> I also believe that what 3putt said below has some truth to it and that is another reason that I think you should work on you so that you get stronger. I want you to get stronger NOT so that your R will fail or that you put no reliance in your wife but so that the balance of power is more even between you and your wife.


Do I want to lose my wife, no, I do not, but I will not put up with her affairs any longer. If she cheats, we will be done, it that my first choice no, but that is what will happen. Sometimes in life you have to do things you do not want to do, but do them because its the best for you. That is all I am saying here, some see that as fear, its not, its just not the best choice, but one that would have to be made, if she cheats again.


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## bfree

lost in Iowa said:


> But do you not think, that for reconciliation to occur, both people must be willing to depend on each other? Can I not help heal myself by being around her, and can she not fix herself by being around me? I must lead my own recovery and she must hers, but we can also rely on each other, that is the purpose of recovery, to regain what we lost.


The problem I see with this line of thinking is that there is a very fine line between support and enabling. Spouses tend to cover for each other. They tend to try to fill in the void. Spouses tend to be so intertwined that it makes personal growth difficult in the best marriages let alone a marriage wracked by infidelity. And no you cannot and should not regain what was lost. It was lost because it was not cared for. It was not cultivated. It withered and died. What you should be doing is each working on yourselves so that your union is stronger; it will only be as strong as it's weakest link. If you truly care about your wife and your marriage you will allow her to grow and learn without your "input." You need to heal by yourself, for yourself lest resentment fester and threaten the marriage. One thing I always tell couples is to be conscious. Most people go through life with blinders on. Take off the rose colored glasses and see the world for what it truly is. It's a harsh bright light but it's better than living in the dark.


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## Mr Blunt

> I hope that you build yourself up in body, mind, and emotions and spirit so that you are more self-sufficient and not so dependent on your wife for your emotional and self-esteem health



LostInIowa, You cut my main point out of your last post and talked about another issue. If you feel that my advice does not apply to you then just say so and I will not bother you anymore. You working on you is one of the most important things that you can do for you to get through this crises and to be better in the future with R or D.


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## carmen ohio

lost in Iowa said:


> Little update, tomorrow is my wife's and I 36 anniversary, this has been one of the most trying years of our marriage. As we sat on the loveseat talking about being together 36 years tonight, I asked my wife "did you think I was going to divorce you for your EA?" Her response was "yes". * I told her that I want to spend the rest of our lives together,* but only she can insure that, the trust that I had for you is now gone, and it will take years for you to rebuild it. Sometimes I wonder if it was all worth it, all the pain that she put me through the last two months. She says she has changed and now understands that her actions can cause me pain and suffering. I reminded her tonight, that is the problem with affairs, the person having them gets all the enjoyment, the spouse all the pain. Today she met with her counselor again, it seems to be helping. I have started back to work, so I no longer have all day to sit around and worry the whys and what's of her EA. But I do still worry about her depression and how she is coping with me being gone for 12 years a day. I still love my wife deeply, but just feel that her EA has left me hollow inside. She asked me last night if so rich, good lucking woman would be out there, would I leave her for the younger woman? I told her, "I want to spend the rest of my life with you, and only your actions can change that." God I hate this feeling, why did she do this, why I am suffering for what she did? I suppose its Karma for what I did to her, but still, some days it's not easy, but our life together has never been easy. We are not the story book fairytale, we are just the couple that was like the ocean, and took each wave as another challenge to make it through. Thanks for listening. LOI





lost in Iowa said:


> How can a person get through recovery and rebuild your marriage if I can not rely on my wife? You are correct, if she goes back to her old ways, my suffering will be worse, but I have to try. Is that not what recovery is all about, learning from your mistakes, and growing as a couple? *Some people will never change, but others will, I think my wife is in the second group.* She has seen all the pain her actions have caused me, she has seen what she has done to our marriage. She continues with the counseling, and I think an hope we will both benefit from it. Our old marriage has died, that does not mean that we can not be together and rebuild or restart all over again. I am willing, and so far, her actions have shown me that she is also.


liI,

Saying to a two-time cheater that you want to spend the rest of your life with her and jumping to the conclusion that she will change so soon after you discovered her second infidelity (that you know of) indicate to me that you are in serious denial about who she is and the likelihood of a successful R.

But you've been given this advice numerous times by multiple posters her and you've discounted it. So, for your sake, I hope you are right and we are wrong. Just keep your eyes open.

Best of luck to you.


----------



## TRy

lost in Iowa said:


> Do I want to lose my wife, no, I do not, but I will not put up with her affairs any longer. If she cheats, we will be done, it that my first choice no, but that is what will happen.


 You said that 5 years ago, yet here you are. She cheated 5 years ago, she just cheated now, and she cheated in between (you just do not know how much). The odds of you ever knowing just how much she has cheated on you, and with how many others is nil, while the odds of her cheating again are very high, almost predictable really. Do you know why she will cheat again? Because she can. Because even with all of her cheating, she still locks her phone and does not give you her passwords. Because you minimize her last affair by calling it an emotional affair (EA) even though it was physical enough that you know that they were at least kissing and groping. Because you only talk the talk, but will not walk the walk out of this marriage, and she knows this.

You are in an emotionally abusive relationship, and just like a person in physically abusive relationship, you keep coming back. Many cuckolds did not start out planning to be cuckolds, do not want to be cuckolds, and do not think of themselves cuckolds. It is just that the reality of their marriage makes them cuckolds regardless of if they like it or acknowledge it. You are in such a marriage. Be well. I wish you the best of luck.


----------



## lost in Iowa

TRy said:


> You said that 5 years ago, yet here you are. She cheated 5 years ago, she just cheated now, and she cheated in between (you just do not know how much). The odds of you ever knowing just how much she has cheated on you, and with how many others is nil, while the odds of her cheating again are very high, almost predictable really. Do you know why she will cheat again? Because she can. Because even with all of her cheating, she still locks her phone and does not give you her passwords. Because you minimize her last affair by calling it an emotional affair (EA) even though it was physical enough that you know that they were at least kissing and groping. Because you only talk the talk, but will not walk the walk out of this marriage, and she knows this.
> 
> You are in an emotionally abusive relationship, and just like a person in physically abusive relationship, you keep coming back. Many cuckolds did not start out planning to be cuckolds, do not want to be cuckolds, and do not think of themselves cuckolds. It is just that the reality of their marriage makes them cuckolds regardless of if they like it or acknowledge it. You are in such a marriage. Be well. I wish you the best of luck.


Can you show me in any of my quotes where I said her phone was locked, and she will not give me the code? No, you can not, why because I have looked at her phone almost daily. So I am weak, and my wife will cheat again because I allow it. I get it, you are just trying to save me more heartache in the future by telling me to divorce my wife and start over. If I do not, I am showing her weakness, cuckolded you said, and she will then see that as a sign that I am ok with her cheating and go ahead and do it again. She has had other affairs you say, but I just did not catch her, but she did. Because a cheater can NEVER change. Lots of past cheater have changed and recommitted back into their marriage. If her EA is physical because the two kissed, then almost every EA is physical. Do they have to kiss? How about just touching or holding hands? When you have a broad definition of something, then everything qualifies as physically cheating. Her emails said they did nothing but kiss and grope each other, no nudity, no quickies in the back seat or blowjobs in the car. Just kissing and groping. We are working to recover, talking each night about us and how she jeopardized our marriage. I will say it again, if she cheats again, we are done, her EA was with a man that lives 1150 miles away that she meet on the internet, they met one time. It was not someone at work or across town.


----------



## lost in Iowa

carmen ohio said:


> liI,
> 
> Saying to a two-time cheater that you want to spend the rest of your life with her and jumping to the conclusion that she will change so soon after you discovered her second infidelity (that you know of) indicate to me that you are in serious denial about who she is and the likelihood of a successful R.
> 
> But you've been given this advice numerous times by multiple posters her and you've discounted it. So, for your sake, I hope you are right and we are wrong. Just keep your eyes open.
> 
> Best of luck to you.


I am not in any way shape or form in denial, I know exactly what I want and have a game plan to get there. This is not me saying, "dear, do what ever you want, but please stay." This is me, telling her daily, "enough of the ****ing around, if I find out you ever do this again, you might as well pack your bag and move in with him, because we are through."


----------



## lost in Iowa

Mr Blunt said:


> LostInIowa, You cut my main point out of your last post and talked about another issue. If you feel that my advice does not apply to you then just say so and I will not bother you anymore. You working on you is one of the most important things that you can do for you to get through this crises and to be better in the future with R or D.


I enjoy reading your posts, even though I do not always agree, outside input is always worth hearing. If you think I cut you off, or missed what you said, I am sorry, I did not mean to do that. I am a better person myself because of this, I no longer take everything she says as the truth, and I have learned a lot about myself and what I want out of life. I still want her, and only her actions can change that fact.


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## drifting on

Lost in Iowa,

I am in reconciliation, my wife had a six month EA/PA. We are struggling at times of reconciliation. My wife's father was diagnosed with cancer, ling cancer, but this cancer also moves. My father in law has had a kidney removed, the lungs cleared, and now it's in his bladder. Prognosis for him is not very good. What are me and my wife arguing over? My supporting my wife, she says she feels alone and that I am not supporting her enough. I understand her argument very well. 

The point I'm trying to make is, if I support her too much, it could derail the reconciliation. My wife isn't healed yet nor am I. I can't give her a false sense of security that I will be there through thick and thin. I am there, I've been to his surgeries, hospital visits, and helped him at home. But her affair actions have me standing back at the same time. She wasn't there for me when my grandfather died. I'm not punishing her at all, I've done ten times more then she did for me. And it's not a contest, but if we divorce she needs to know she only has herself. 

There is a fine, fine line that I cannot allow to get blurred, she needs to know I am supporting her with her father, but she still needs to do the work in reconciliation. Do I feel terrible, absolutely, does she, absolutely. I'm not trying to be a jerk, I have supported her more then I think I should, and I will be there for her but its a tough kind to walk. 

You tell your wife you want to be here forever, but her actions will determine the fate of the marriage. What she is hearing when you say this is you will stay, be good, he will stay. She had a physical affair and an EA for years even meeting OM. Yes she is capable of change, so is my wife, but stop telling her that her actions determine what you do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Satya

LII, I wish you all the best. You have to do what you think is best, regardless of what others may recommend to the contrary. 

If you find yourself back here in 6-8 months, let us know how things are progressing.


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## bandit.45

I think her depression is actually guilt. Amazing how she suddenly feels better when she is cheating. Some would say that it is due to her going through her manic phase. But I think she is just no longer in love with you, and has not been for many many years ....if she ever was. 

But she cannot be alone so she plays the game so she can keep you around. It is the faking it that makes her unhappy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TRy

lost in Iowa said:


> If her EA is physical because the two kissed, then almost every EA is physical. Do they have to kiss? How about just touching or holding hands? When you have a broad definition of something, then everything qualifies as physically cheating. Her emails said they did nothing but kiss and grope each other


 So in your mind your wife can "kiss and grope" and be groped and that is not "physically cheating"? That is one of the messages that you are sending your wife after her last affair.


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## TRy

lost in Iowa said:


> Can you show me in any of my quotes where I said her phone was locked, and she will not give me the code? No, you can not, why because I have looked at her phone almost daily.


 I stand corrected, it is the secret email account that you did not have the code for.


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## lost in Iowa

bandit.45 said:


> I think her depression is actually guilt. Amazing how she suddenly feels better when she is cheating. Some would say that it is due to her going through her manic phase. But I think she is just no longer in love with you, and has not been for many many years ....if she ever was.
> 
> But she cannot be alone so she plays the game so she can keep you around. It is the faking it that makes her unhappy.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Bandit, why would you say any of the things you said here? You have the ability to say my wife no longer is in love with me and had not been for years, yet you have never met neither me nor my wife. How do you come to that conclusion? Well she has had a EA and PA so she must not love you. To the point about her affairs bringing her out of depression, that is fairly common from what I have read. Whether we like it or not, most being having an affair enjoy it, the attention, talking ect. Why would my wife being any different than the millions of others that have had affairs? Hell I enjoyed those things during my EA twenty years ago. I have stated before, its easy to Monday morning quarterback while setting in a computer chair about someone else's life. But until you have gone through the exact same situation or are one of the two involved, you really have no clue what you would do.


----------



## lost in Iowa

TRy said:


> I stand corrected, it is the secret email account that you did not have the code for.


If she has a secret email account, why would I need the code, its secret, so I would know nothing about it. I get it, you are one of the throw her to the curb people. Have you read this whole thread, or just felt the need to throw in your two cents? The phone quote did not work out, so lets throw something else out there and see if it sticks.


----------



## lost in Iowa

TRy said:


> So in your mind your wife can "kiss and grope" and be groped and that is not "physically cheating"? That is one of the messages that you are sending your wife after her last affair.


It does not matter what I think, its what happened. Do I think kissing and groping are physically cheating, no I do not. I am not sending any message to my wife. I have never told her you can kiss and grope but that is it, no further. She had an affair, she did things during her affair that she says she is now ashamed of doing and hurting me by her actions. If she could take it back, she says she would, but we all know that is not possible. No messages are being sent, I do not want an open marriage or anything like that.


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## bandit.45

lost in Iowa said:


> Bandit, why would you say any of the things you said here? You have the ability to say my wife no longer is in love with me and had not been for years, yet you have never met neither me nor my wife. How do you come to that conclusion? Well she has had a EA and PA so she must not love you. To the point about her affairs bringing her out of depression, that is fairly common from what I have read. Whether we like it or not, most being having an affair enjoy it, the attention, talking ect. Why would my wife being any different than the millions of others that have had affairs? Hell I enjoyed those things during my EA twenty years ago. I have stated before, its easy to Monday morning quarterback while setting in a computer chair about someone else's life. But until you have gone through the exact same situation or are one of the two involved, you really have no clue what you would do.



Oh she loves you....no doubt. 

Like a brother....or a good friend with whom she has enjoyed a past romance with. But she is not in love with you, nor does she have wifely feelings towards you. 

How can I make such claims? Simple. Because of her behavior you have described. 

Stop listening to what she says and watch what she does. 

Oh, and I have been where you are at. Twice with the same woman myself. I was you once.


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## Nucking Futs

lost in Iowa said:


> It does not matter what I think, its what happened. * Do I think kissing and groping are physically cheating, no I do not.* I am not sending any message to my wife. I have never told her you can kiss and grope but that is it, no further. She had an affair, she did things during her affair that she says she is now ashamed of doing and hurting me by her actions. If she could take it back, she says she would, but we all know that is not possible. No messages are being sent, I do not want an open marriage or anything like that.


Whoa, so you're ok with your wife kissing and groping with other men? That explains a lot.


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## lost in Iowa

Nucking Futs said:


> Whoa, so you're ok with your wife kissing and groping with other men? That explains a lot.


No I am not ok with it, but it happened. Is this grounds for divorce, I suppose for some it could be, but I if that was the case there would be a lot divorced people. Affairs happen, thing that they do are not pleasant to the BS, but they happen. What would you have me do?


----------



## lost in Iowa

bandit.45 said:


> Oh she loves you....no doubt.
> 
> Like a brother....or a good friend with whom she has enjoyed a past romance with. But she is not in love with you, nor does she have wifely feelings towards you.
> 
> How can I make such claims? Simple. Because of her behavior you have described.
> 
> Stop listening to what she says and watch what she does.
> 
> Oh, and I have been where you are at. Twice with the same woman myself. I was you once.


Bandit, again you are inferring things that might or not be there. Loves me like a brother, but not in love with you? I know, she had a EA and PA, I get that, but you vote she can not and will not change. I have been watching her like a hawk for the past two months. Some people change after a affair, others do not, but no one can judge how that person will react unless you are us. Sorry you spouse did what she did you, but I also think that has given you some bias towards spouses that cheat. I understand it, but that bias is not always right.


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## drifting on

Lostiniowa

Being a BS who has gone through both the EA/PA, let me tell you what I see as very troubling. Also let me remind you I am in reconciliation with my wife, and I understand the hard work that goes with reconciling. Think back to your EA, how hurt was your wife? Did she lose weight from not eating? Did she seem confused and destroyed? How devastated did she seem? Did she think that you still loved her? You need to answer these questions from what you witnessed, not to go and ask her. 

Your wife then has a physical affair with a client in your home. Now this was orchestrated very well by her, there is no arguing that. She went to great lengths to have sex with this OM. When you arrive home she blurts out, well I did it. I can only tell you I honestly do not know what my reaction to that would have been. But that is irrelevant, you both worked through that and it could be an act of revenge. Although she went further then you, the slate is even so to speak. You both committed acts to basically destroy the marriage in the worst of ways.

Your wife has not apparently learned from either affair, and that has alarmed many of the posters here including myself. You learned from your affair, why? She didn't learn from a physical affair, why? Again answer this yourself, don't ask her for answers. She drove for how long to meet OM2, never once thinking this was wrong. She may say it was wrong but you need to look at her action, she drove and then met him. Now she still can't see this is wrong and gets physical with groping and kissing. Please don't tell me she has poor boundaries, please don't tell me she is inexperienced with relationships. She stated in email that she wanted this to be a full sexual affair.

The question to you is how long do you need to witness her actions that are not marriage material actions?That is what posters are trying to get you to see, as she again orchestrated a meeting out of town. Why is she remorseful now? Is she doing what she did after OM1? I'm sure she is crying, telling you everything you want to hear, but what did her actions say? After OM1 it was remorse for being caught. And after OM2 I'm not so sure it isn't for the same reason, being caught. Only you can determine how remorseful she is. Only you can determine of you want to police her for the rest of your marriage. Only you can know if this is what you want. 

In my opinion, your wife is very intelligent at deception, another well orchestrated event. If and I say if, there is another event, it will take you even longer to find that one out. It appears that she does this very easily, and that's makes her being in love with you very suspect. I'm not trying to argue or say not to reconcile, but reconciliation is very difficult work, especially if you are both not in love with each other. I wish you well, and I'm not trying to be harsh, but I feel you are somewhat blinded and need to examine what is in front of you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Nucking Futs

lost in Iowa said:


> It does not matter what I think, its what happened.* Do I think kissing and groping are physically cheating, no I do not.* I am not sending any message to my wife. I have never told her you can kiss and grope but that is it, no further. She had an affair, she did things during her affair that she says she is now ashamed of doing and hurting me by her actions. If she could take it back, she says she would, but we all know that is not possible. No messages are being sent, I do not want an open marriage or anything like that.





lost in Iowa said:


> *No I am not ok with it, but it happened.* Is this grounds for divorce, I suppose for some it could be, but I if that was the case there would be a lot divorced people. Affairs happen, thing that they do are not pleasant to the BS, but they happen. What would you have me do?


Help me out here. If secretly kissing and groping another man is cheating in your book, why aren't you ok with it?


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## lost in Iowa

drifting on said:


> Lostiniowa
> 
> Being a BS who has gone through both the EA/PA, let me tell you what I see as very troubling. Also let me remind you I am in reconciliation with my wife, and I understand the hard work that goes with reconciling. Think back to your EA, how hurt was your wife? Did she lose weight from not eating? Did she seem confused and destroyed? How devastated did she seem? Did she think that you still loved her? You need to answer these questions from what you witnessed, not to go and ask her.
> 
> Your wife then has a physical affair with a client in your home. Now this was orchestrated very well by her, there is no arguing that. She went to great lengths to have sex with this OM. When you arrive home she blurts out, well I did it. I can only tell you I honestly do not know what my reaction to that would have been. But that is irrelevant, you both worked through that and it could be an act of revenge. Although she went further then you, the slate is even so to speak. You both committed acts to basically destroy the marriage in the worst of ways.
> 
> Your wife has not apparently learned from either affair, and that has alarmed many of the posters here including myself. You learned from your affair, why? She didn't learn from a physical affair, why? Again answer this yourself, don't ask her for answers. She drove for how long to meet OM2, never once thinking this was wrong. She may say it was wrong but you need to look at her action, she drove and then met him. Now she still can't see this is wrong and gets physical with groping and kissing. Please don't tell me she has poor boundaries, please don't tell me she is inexperienced with relationships. She stated in email that she wanted this to be a full sexual affair.
> 
> The question to you is how long do you need to witness her actions that are not marriage material actions?That is what posters are trying to get you to see, as she again orchestrated a meeting out of town. Why is she remorseful now? Is she doing what she did after OM1? I'm sure she is crying, telling you everything you want to hear, but what did her actions say? After OM1 it was remorse for being caught. And after OM2 I'm not so sure it isn't for the same reason, being caught. Only you can determine how remorseful she is. Only you can determine of you want to police her for the rest of your marriage. Only you can know if this is what you want.
> 
> In my opinion, your wife is very intelligent at deception, another well orchestrated event. If and I say if, there is another event, it will take you even longer to find that one out. It appears that she does this very easily, and that's makes her being in love with you very suspect. I'm not trying to argue or say not to reconcile, but reconciliation is very difficult work, especially if you are both not in love with each other. I wish you well, and I'm not trying to be harsh, but I feel you are somewhat blinded and need to examine what is in front of you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What you said is true, she has spent a lot of time planning her affairs, I am not going to deny that. With the EA she drove 100 miles to meet him. The first one they talked on the phone, she took time off work when he came to town that day and they had sex. I am not excusing what she did, but that is what people in affairs do, she did not have a one night stand, meet someone and go home with them and ****. In her cases both times she planned out what she was dong. Most people having an affair do exactly the same thing, do they not? I am not sure why her planning and follow through is such a huge deal for some people, but it is. And then they see that she planned, therefore likes to do this and will continue to do so. I just do not believe that, hell when I had my EA, we planned when we would meet, I drove to her town or we met in another town to be together, that proves nothing. I have changed and realize what I did was wrong, my wife says the same thing. Her words, it was stupid, it got out of hand, and she wishes she did not do it. I can either forgive her, or hold it against her for the rest of our lives. If I do the latter, I might as well divorce her, what is the point of being with someone that you can not forgive?
I know both of us have been hurt by our spouse, neither one of us signed up for this, but our spouses have done things they shouldn't. That is my point, she does not run over me, I look at everything she does, and question everything she does. I am also aware that I leave home at seven in the morning and do not return until around seven that night. That would be plenty of time for her to fool around, she says she is not. When she slept with the first guy she told me immediately, maybe it was fear, I do not know, but she told me when I walked in the door. She had told me that the over man and her had got out for lunch as a way to say thanks for working with their company, he took the other office girls out the week before. If she does not change, we are through, I suppose I could divorce her now, that is what a lot of people seem to be saying here, I chose not to make that choice now, but will if I think she is cheating again.


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## lost in Iowa

Nucking Futs said:


> Help me out here. If secretly kissing and groping another man is cheating in your book, why aren't you ok with it?


Why am I not ok with it? Because it is wrong, now should I leave her over it, file for divorce, no not yet. I also had a EA, we kissed groped and spent time together. Was it right, no I hate myself for doing it, but not grounds for divorce. Others my think differently, that is their choice. You seem to be saying to me, kissing and groping is physical, and if you do not divorce, I am condoning it. No I am saying it was wrong and is wrong, but I am not willing to say, this is what broke the camels back and we are done.


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## drifting on

Ok lostiniowa, you missed my point and most likely every others posters point. You learned after ONE. SHE HAS NOT LEARNED AFTER TWO!!! Yes it took planning, it took deception, it took lying, that is all common!!! The fact she did it twice is what you need to be concerned about. She NEVER LEARNED. Now she is at the door and you ready to push her through, wouldn't you show remorse???? Think about this, think about what she did, stop comparing her to other affairs. STOP MAKING EXCUSES FOR HER. That what we are telling you.

I'm not saying to divorce, but you should have an attorney retained. You should also have yourself ready to pull that trigger at a moments notice. PROTECT YOURSELF!!!! Because at the end of the day, I don't buy what she's trying to sell you at all. Your attitude should be the same. Make her prove beyond a doubt she wants this, that she wants you. Because we all see you want her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Nucking Futs

lost in Iowa said:


> Why am I not ok with it? Because it is wrong, now should I leave her over it, file for divorce, no not yet. I also had a EA, we kissed groped and spent time together. Was it right, no I hate myself for doing it, but not grounds for divorce. Others my think differently, that is their choice. You seem to be saying to me, kissing and groping is physical, and if you do not divorce, I am condoning it. No I am saying it was wrong and is wrong, but I am not willing to say, this is what broke the camels back and we are done.


Actually you're the one that said it's not cheating. I understand you did it yourself and probably don't want to admit you were cheating on your wife when you did it. And when I said in my original post that it explains a lot, I meant it explains why you don't seem to get what you're being told and your responses don't make a lot of sense. You've built yourself a little logical trap that's going to prevent you from moving forward until you reconcile it.

You physically cheated on your wife when you kissed and groped another woman. She cheated on you when she kissed and groped another man. You keep getting called out for making excuses for her but in reality you're making excuses for yourself.


----------



## drifting on

Nucking Futs said:


> Actually you're the one that said it's not cheating. I understand you did it yourself and probably don't want to admit you were cheating on your wife when you did it. And when I said in my original post that it explains a lot, I meant it explains why you don't seem to get what you're being told and your responses don't make a lot of sense. You've built yourself a little logical trap that's going to prevent you from moving forward until you reconcile it.
> 
> You physically cheated on your wife when you kissed and groped another woman. She cheated on you when she kissed and groped another man. You keep getting called out for making excuses for her but in reality you're making excuses for yourself.



Well said.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lost in Iowa

drifting on said:


> Well said.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


To you, kissing and groping is physical cheating, that is your opinion, I would say it is not. We both disagree with the definition of physical cheating. To me, its sex, oral or anything else is physical cheating. Kissing and groping is not physical cheating to me. Now before you say it, yes, she wanted to do more, but they did not.


----------



## Satya

lost in Iowa said:


> Bandit, again you are inferring things that might or not be there. Loves me like a brother, but not in love with you? I know, she had a EA and PA, I get that, but you vote she can not and will not change. I have been watching her like a hawk for the past two months. Some people change after a affair, others do not, but no one can judge how that person will react unless you are us. Sorry you spouse did what she did you, but I also think that has given you some bias towards spouses that cheat. I understand it, but that bias is not always right.


LII, I do not think you're seeing this in the way Bandit is trying to present it. 

A woman that marries you (is marriage material and agrees to a monogamous relationship) would not do what your wife did. She would work on her marriage first before looking outside to have needs met. Things didn't happen that way, however, meaning she did not love you enough to a.) do the hard work or b.) let you go before seeking what she wanted, which would have been the respectful thing to do. 

You might have a different definition of love than Bandit as well. I think yours may be more conditional and not unfailingly based upon respect, and if you're happy with that, I doubt Bandit can convince you with his posts.


----------



## lost in Iowa

drifting on said:


> Ok lostiniowa, you missed my point and most likely every others posters point. You learned after ONE. SHE HAS NOT LEARNED AFTER TWO!!! Yes it took planning, it took deception, it took lying, that is all common!!! The fact she did it twice is what you need to be concerned about. She NEVER LEARNED. Now she is at the door and you ready to push her through, wouldn't you show remorse???? Think about this, think about what she did, stop comparing her to other affairs. STOP MAKING EXCUSES FOR HER. That what we are telling you.
> 
> I'm not saying to divorce, but you should have an attorney retained. You should also have yourself ready to pull that trigger at a moments notice. PROTECT YOURSELF!!!! Because at the end of the day, I don't buy what she's trying to sell you at all. Your attitude should be the same. Make her prove beyond a doubt she wants this, that she wants you. Because we all see you want her.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Drifting where have I said she has not learned after two? She did not learn after the first one, hopefully she has after this one or we are through. Why should I retain a lawyer before she does that, a few days is not going to make a difference either way. To the point it will show her that you are willing to divorce, seeing a lawyer and will do it, really proves nothing. I suppose I could spend thousands to file, and see what she does about it, but that is a dangerous game, she may see that as I am giving up. Some would say, fine, if that is what she thinks then the marriage is not worth saving, and they would be right. But I am not willing to risk that now. She is proving this by being here, transparent in actions and talking to me and her counselor. Why does everything have to be a test? More of the you have to willing to show that you will walk to force her to change, that kind of thought is garbage. She will either change and we will be together, or she go back to her affair ways and we will go our separate ways. I know its easy for people to look at something like me saying "her being here", and say she has no choice, she has no other place to go, and you let her do it. I just wish people would take a step back, breath and saying they are trying, its going to take time. We have had a great couple of weeks, spent yesterday tailgating with friends and family. Just stop scanning everything I write and looking for weakness and taking words out of context to criticize everything. My post that got this started said it was our anniversary , and things were improving, that is all I said. Since that post I have been accused of allowing my wife to cheat, and everything else. Just slow down and relax, and let us work this through, and I will continue that and keep people updated. Thanks for listening.


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## bfree

LiI, you cheat, feel remorse and change. She cheats, feels remorse (?) and cheats again? And your response is that she is a slow learner? No my friend you are the slow learner. She's just getting better at deceiving you. Isn't this three affairs and counting? You say that if you retained a lawyer that she would see it as you giving up and end the marriage. Then how much can she value the marriage...or you? If she truly loves you wouldn't she fight for you? Wouldn't she fight for the marriage? Shouldn't she? If not then how can Bandit be wrong?


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## lost in Iowa

bfree said:


> LiI, you cheat, feel remorse and change. She cheats, feels remorse (?) and cheats again? And your response is that she is a slow learner? No my friend you are the slow learner. She's just getting better at deceiving you. Isn't this three affairs and counting? You say that if you retained a lawyer that she would see it as you giving up and end the marriage. Then how much can she value the marriage...or you? If she truly loves you wouldn't she fight for you? Wouldn't she fight for the marriage? Shouldn't she? If not then how can Bandit be wrong?


Did I miss one of her affairs, she had a EA and PA, I also had a EA, I suppose if you counted both us it would be three. Where did I say she was a slow learner? I mentioned the Lawyer and you did exactly like I thought some would, then she does not value the marriage. Last night my brother was arrested for DWI, he has struggled with alcohol for years, and my wife and I were talking about it. I mentioned that some people have to hit rock bottom before they can learn. She agreed, with me and I asked her when she hit rock bottom. She said "when you asked me to leave after you found out about my EA." I then asked her what she thought, and she said " I thought to myself, I really ****ed up and he is going to divorce me over this." I then asked her, do you still think I am going to divorce you, and she said, "Yes, if I do anything like this again, you will file and we will be finished." I asked her what she thought of that, and she said she will never do it again. Now, what more could I do and ask of her. Maybe I am asking how many people think I should just divorce, because that is what people seem to what me to do.


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## TRy

lost in Iowa said:


> To you, kissing and groping is physical cheating, that is your opinion, I would say it is not. We both disagree with the definition of physical cheating. To me, its sex, oral or anything else is physical cheating. Kissing and groping is not physical cheating to me. Now before you say it, yes, she wanted to do more, but they did not.


 You actually just said that "Kissing and groping is not physical cheating". You may not think that kissing and groping is sex, and you may not think that it is something that you want to divorce over, but are you really saying that kissing and groping it is not "cheating"? And if you do agree that it is cheating, are you really then saying that it is not "physical"? Because if you agree that it is "cheating" and it is "physical", then you are just playing dishonest word games with yourself in not acknowledging it for what it is, "physical cheating".

Also, the fact that "she wanted to do more", would matter to me more than it apparently does you.


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## 3putt

TRy said:


> You actually just said that "Kissing and groping is not physical cheating". You may not think that kissing and groping is sex, and you may not think that it is something that you want to divorce over, but are you really saying that kissing and groping it is not "cheating"? And if you do agree that it is cheating, are you really then saying that it is not "physical"? Because if you agree that it is "cheating" and it is "physical", then you are just playing dishonest word games with yourself in not acknowledging it for what it is, "physical cheating".
> 
> Also, the fact that "she wanted to do more", would matter to me more than it apparently does you.


I agree.

IMO, over the years their lines and boundaries of normalcy in a marriage have been so blurred I don't think either one of them has a clue as to what should be truly acceptable or not.

This is the way I look at it Iowa. If you wouldn't do it in front of your spouse, then it's cheating. That's what marriage is supposed to be about. Completely open and honest.

You wouldn't agree with that?


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## bigfoot

You titled this thread "not sure what to do?", but from reading you seem pretty sure what to do. It is your life, so you can do what you want. It just strikes me as odd that you dispute every opinion that differs from yours. You have settled to remain and hope she has gotten cheating out of her system. You have invoked the time honoured, "if she does it again..." approach. Truthfully, almost everyone who invoked it never really does anything. The next time is always different, it really is not. They will say, it wasn't physical or with the same person or they confessed right away. 

So to be clear, you're staying. You're venting on this site. You're arguing with others because it gives you a release and helps you to convince yourself of your choice. That's fine. Good luck to you. You are going to need it.


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## Mr Blunt

> *By LostinIowa*
> “I have changed and realize what I did was wrong, my wife says the same thing. Her words, it was stupid, it got out of hand, and she wishes she did not do it. I can either forgive her, or hold it against her for the rest of our lives.* If I do the latter, I might as well divorce her, what is the point of being with someone that you cannot forgive?”*


*You should work are forgiving her if you R or D because it will keep you away from negative emotions such as hate and vengeance.*





> *By LostinIowa*
> “I also had a EA, we kissed groped and spent time together. Was it right, no I hate myself for doing it…”


You hate yourself for doing it because you have a good sense of morality and are a decent man. You have changed and proven that for 20 years. That is probably one reason why you think tat your wife will change.

Your wife may do the same as you and I commend you for giving her the chance. There is a chance that your wife has finally learned her lesson and is really remorseful.* I just hope that she gets a full understanding as to why she did this twice and corrects that character flaw in her enough so that she never does it again.* I am one that thinks that your wife can change enough to help make the marriage work. Of course she can fail again but no one knows at this point.

My wife has never betrayed me again in over 20 years. However, like all cases, our situation is different than yours in some ways. My wife only did it once and I divorced her in less than 6 months. She came crawling back and I made her prove her remorse for over 4 years then remarried her.

What I hope you do is that you get yourself stronger in body, mind, spirit, and emotions and demand that she proves herself like you did for 20 years. *If you get yourself stronger then you will be Ok no matter which way she goes.*


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## lost in Iowa

TRy said:


> You actually just said that "Kissing and groping is not physical cheating". You may not think that kissing and groping is sex, and you may not think that it is something that you want to divorce over, but are you really saying that kissing and groping it is not "cheating"? And if you do agree that it is cheating, are you really then saying that it is not "physical"? Because if you agree that it is "cheating" and it is "physical", then you are just playing dishonest word games with yourself in not acknowledging it for what it is, "physical cheating".
> 
> Also, the fact that "she wanted to do more", would matter to me more than it apparently does you.


I meant to say its not sex, yes it is cheating. The she wanted to do more comment is just that, I may think about breaking the law, but the thought of just doing it, is not breaking the law. Yes, she wanted it to go further, it did not. That does not condone what she did, but just thinking about something does not make one guilty of doing it. Do I think a person having a PA over a long period of time is worse than a EA, yes I do. They met once, they kissed, and groped but the emails said that was all that happened. No, it was not right, but it could have been a lot worse. If what I said confused you, then I am sorry, but I am not playing word games here, just explaining what I said.


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## lost in Iowa

3putt said:


> I agree.
> 
> IMO, over the years their lines and boundaries of normalcy in a marriage have been so blurred I don't think either one of them has a clue as to what should be truly acceptable or not.
> 
> This is the way I look at it Iowa. If you wouldn't do it in front of your spouse, then it's cheating. That's what marriage is supposed to be about. Completely open and honest.
> 
> You wouldn't agree with that?


Yes, I would agree, that anything you could not do in front of your spouse is wrong, she cheated, I never denied that fact, she has cheated twice. Yes, in marriage, neither person should cheat, but it does happen, and it occurs a lot. For some that is a grounds for divorce for others, like me, we are trying to work it out. Marriages can and do survive affairs, others do not. I hope we will survive this, if not, I can look into the mirror and say I tried.


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## lost in Iowa

Mr Blunt said:


> *You should work are forgiving her if you R or D because it will keep you away from negative emotions such as hate and vengeance.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You hate yourself for doing it because you have a good sense of morality and are a decent man. You have changed and proven that for 20 years. That is probably one reason why you think tat your wife will change.
> 
> Your wife may do the same as you and I commend you for giving her the chance. There is a chance that your wife has finally learned her lesson and is really remorseful.* I just hope that she gets a full understanding as to why she did this twice and corrects that character flaw in her enough so that she never does it again.* I am one that thinks that your wife can change enough to help make the marriage work. Of course she can fail again but no one knows at this point.
> 
> My wife has never betrayed me again in over 20 years. However, like all cases, our situation is different than yours in some ways. My wife only did it once and I divorced her in less than 6 months. She came crawling back and I made her prove her remorse for over 4 years then remarried her.
> 
> What I hope you do is that you get yourself stronger in body, mind, spirit, and emotions and demand that she proves herself like you did for 20 years. *If you get yourself stronger then you will be Ok no matter which way she goes.*


She says she has, but like you said, no one knows the future. I can just offer her the chance, anything more will be up to her. Am I a better person for going through this, I do not know, I asked myself that question today. I am trying, I will not be crushed if I divorce my wife, but I would wonder about my future, 36 years is a hell of a investment into something and then see it end. Think a person that started a business from scratch, saw it grow and then the economy changes and he loses everything. Does it crush his spirit, no, but he would wonder, "could I have done more to save it." That is the way I feel about all of this. Thanks for caring.


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## phillybeffandswiss

Well, I was waiting for this to occur. You are now misdirecting your anger at your wife onto the posters. 

So, what is she doing now that is irking you?


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## lost in Iowa

bigfoot said:


> You titled this thread "not sure what to do?", but from reading you seem pretty sure what to do. It is your life, so you can do what you want. It just strikes me as odd that you dispute every opinion that differs from yours. You have settled to remain and hope she has gotten cheating out of her system. You have invoked the time honoured, "if she does it again..." approach. Truthfully, almost everyone who invoked it never really does anything. The next time is always different, it really is not. They will say, it wasn't physical or with the same person or they confessed right away.
> 
> So to be clear, you're staying. You're venting on this site. You're arguing with others because it gives you a release and helps you to convince yourself of your choice. That's fine. Good luck to you. You are going to need it.


When I started this thread I did want and hope to receive advice about how to cope with my wife's affairs. Maybe I just needed to vent, what I did not expect is to be attacked and told repeated, "divorce her, she will never change." That has been a surprise to me, maybe I just have trouble with a site that is suppose to be about saving marriages, and dealing with affairs, how so many are saying quit and go your own way. It almost like a sport for some, and anyone that goes against that thought line, is immediately attacked and called weak and an enabler. Go to almost every thread here started in the past month or two, and some are almost giddy when the person says I am filing for divorce. That is what I am fighting against, it is a losing battle, I am not going to change their mind, anymore than they are going to change mine. Its ok to debate people, good to vent, and talk to others that have been through this, I am no way shape or form an expert on affairs. I can just tell about what I have been through and what I have read on line and in books. Good luck to us all.


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## farsidejunky

bigfoot said:


> You titled this thread "not sure what to do?", but from reading you seem pretty sure what to do. It is your life, so you can do what you want. It just strikes me as odd that you dispute every opinion that differs from yours. You have settled to remain and hope she has gotten cheating out of her system. You have invoked the time honoured, "if she does it again..." approach. Truthfully, almost everyone who invoked it never really does anything. The next time is always different, it really is not. They will say, it wasn't physical or with the same person or they confessed right away.
> 
> So to be clear, you're staying. You're venting on this site. You're arguing with others because it gives you a release and helps you to convince yourself of your choice. That's fine. Good luck to you. You are going to need it.


Nailed it. QFT.


----------



## lost in Iowa

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Well, I was waiting for this to occur. You are now misdirecting your anger at your wife onto the posters.
> 
> So, what is she doing now that is irking you?


She has done nothing, we are really getting along very well. Sorry to disappoint you. My anger is not misdirected, it squarely aimed at those that want me and others like me to see their marriage fail. Some times that is necessary, but others times its not. But I am not going to change any ones opinion, that is not my goal. It was to seek out support and some advise, not be a punching bag.


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## farsidejunky

lost in Iowa said:


> When I started this thread I did want and hope to receive advice about how to cope with my wife's affairs. Maybe I just needed to vent, what I did not expect is to be attacked and told repeated, "divorce her, she will never change." That has been a surprise to me, maybe I just have trouble with a site that is suppose to be about saving marriages, and dealing with affairs, how so many are saying quit and go your own way. It almost like a sport for some, and anyone that goes against that thought line, is immediately attacked and called weak and an enabler. Go to almost every thread here started in the past month or two, and some are almost giddy when the person says I am filing for divorce. That is what I am fighting against, it is a losing battle, I am not going to change their mind, anymore than they are going to change mine. Its ok to debate people, good to vent, and talk to others that have been through this, I am no way shape or form an expert on affairs. I can just tell about what I have been through and what I have read on line and in books. Good luck to us all.


I find it amazing that you see challenges to your mind set as attacks. Perhaps the reason it bothers you is because your male intuition is telling you there may be some truth to their claims.

It says much more about you than it does others.

As to changing of minds...your wife is a two time offender that you are coaching through reconciliation while telling us she is doing the heavy lifting. Just because you wish it to be true does not make it so.

Bigfoot nailed it, LII. But again, I got sucked back into this thread when I intended to bow out... 

I really, really hope you are right and I am wrong, brother. I hope you believe that. I wish you the best of luck.


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## phillybeffandswiss

Disappoint me? LOL. 
Everything is great, then why did you just bring up venting?

You are currently cherry picking posts, purposely misreading comments and spewing anger at the website over your wife's REPEATED cheating and your own infidelity as well. It is two months later and you are offering up the same complaints you did, when I angered you and left your thread alone.

So, to me, it shows you guys are stagnant. If it isn't her, then it is you.


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## turnera

I think he's doing fine. I prefer that people try to save marriages. He knows what he's doing, he knows what to watch out for, how about we stop spending dozens and dozens of pages attacking him and make this a little more welcoming and just be available if he has any problems?


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## lost in Iowa

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Disappoint me? LOL.
> Everything is great, then why did you just bring up venting?
> 
> You are currently cherry picking posts, purposely misreading comments and spewing anger at the website over your wife's REPEATED cheating and your own infidelity as well. It is two months later and you are offering up the same complaints you did, when I angered you and left your thread alone.
> 
> So, to me, it shows you guys are stagnant. If it isn't her, then it is you.[/QUO
> 
> Where have I cherry picked quotes? I brought up venting, because someone said that might have been the reason I was here. I agreed with him, I did not vent about anything that has happened to me or my wife. My wife's repeated cheating, love that from todays media, twice is now repeatedly, implying that 2 is now 5 or 6. But your response is going to be two is repeatedly, why not say twice, because repeatedly gives the impression of many. That is why you chose repeatedly. But you are right, on this one occasion I did cherry pick.


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## lost in Iowa

turnera said:


> I think he's doing fine. I prefer that people try to save marriages. He knows what he's doing, he knows what to watch out for, how about we stop spending dozens and dozens of pages attacking him and make this a little more welcoming and just be available if he has any problems?


I thank you for your words, I really do, but it falls on deaf ears for many on this board. There is a small segment of postures here that see divorce as the only choice, anything less they see as weakness or enabling. Maybe I should just leave the site and deal with this by myself, not sure, but I do know that I have had enough of this tonight. Good luck to us all.


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## phillybeffandswiss

People have been pointing it out the last few pages. If you missed them with example provided, I can't help you..


phillybeffandswiss said:


> Show me the questions and I will respond. Your responses to me contained none.
> What I find interesting is you become angry when people suggest consequences for your wife.
> 
> No, I am like the highway information board. I warn you of an oncoming accident, but you still become angry when traffic grinds to a halt a few exits later.


^^^07-26-2015 was my last post.

So, if you posted questions they remained unanswered. What I was posting angered you so, I left to stop our exchanges. Interesting that you are as angry now as back then. At least you will admit it now:


> My anger is not misdirected



Look good luck.


----------



## lost in Iowa

farsidejunky said:


> I find it amazing that you see challenges to your mind set as attacks. Perhaps the reason it bothers you is because your male intuition is telling you there may be some truth to their claims.
> 
> It says much more about you than it does others.
> 
> As to changing of minds...your wife is a two time offender that you are coaching through reconciliation while telling us she is doing the heavy lifting. Just because you wish it to be true does not make it so.
> 
> Bigfoot nailed it, LII. But again, I got sucked back into this thread when I intended to bow out...
> 
> I really, really hope you are right and I am wrong, brother. I hope you believe that. I wish you the best of luck.


Well I am a teacher and a coach, so I suppose I am using what I know to help my wife through this, I am sorry that you do not think she is doing the heavy lifting, but she is doing her share, that is all I can ask. I also hope you are wrong, but only time will tell. As for the attacks, I have been called an enabler, ****aded, been accused of not seeing the big picture, of so afraid of divorce that she is allowed to do what ever she please, and being compared to a Mr. Rodgers on PBS. So yes, I would say I have been attacked, I guess I just do not understand how some people take my actions and problems so personal. I can see why I do, they are my problems, but why do others? What does it matter to them, and why do they have to attack and make fun of people and be so negative.


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## bfree

LiI, I agree with Turnera that this dialogue isn't helping so I'm going to make this my last post until you come back with new information that could advance the conversation. I was the one who mentioned enabling behavior. Your comment above demonstrates that you aren't reading these posts as they are intended; to help you see options and illuminate alternative paths. I specifically said that I see your current mindset as being flawed as in my opinion it allows too much potential for enabling destructive and/or codependent behavior and doesn't focus attention on personal growth for both you and your wife. Somehow you interpreted that as an attack rather than an alternate opinion designed to help you see more clearly. My post in total was encouraging you to look at the end goal of a stronger union which of course is in line with your desire for reconciliation. Frankly I haven't read any posts that tried to push you toward divorce or called you out for being weak. On the contrary all I see is people who have walked the same road as you and who stumbled at various points trying to give you a heads up so you don't make the same errors. Some did indeed divorce and are trying to warn you of the pitfalls that lead to the end of their marriage. Others reconciled and are trying to warn you of the stumbling blocks they encountered along the way that almost derailed their reconciliation. The fact that you see all these posts as attacks is precisely the problem. As I said, you are wearing blinders and cannot see the light at the end of the tunnel because you keep looking down at your feet. We are simply trying to get you to look up once in a while to make sure you haven't lost your way. I don't want you to divorce your wife and I dare say most others who have posted don't either. But we do want your reconciliation to succeed the right way so that your marriage will last and you won't be back in a year or two struggling with the same issues. I wish you all the good fortune you can find and I pray you and your wife find happiness.


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## Chaparral

lost in Iowa said:


> She has done nothing, we are really getting along very well. Sorry to disappoint you. My anger is not misdirected, it squarely aimed at those that want me and others like me to see their marriage fail. Some times that is necessary, but others times its not. But I am not going to change any ones opinion, that is not my goal. It was to seek out support and some advise, not be a punching bag.


Having cheated twice puts your wife in the category of serial cheater. That's the biggest reason, I believe so many have suggested divorce. The experience here and many experts say serial cheaters can't be fixed.

You are on the ground there and you should do what you think is best. There used to be a lot more folks here that would guide people through reconciliation. Somehow they have the knack of getting perma banned. My own experience here is making me lean away from reconciliation. Too many get played and hurt again. Risking that kind of hurt again takes courage.


----------



## carmen ohio

turnera said:


> I think he's doing fine. I prefer that people try to save marriages. He knows what he's doing, he knows what to watch out for, how about we stop spending dozens and dozens of pages attacking him and make this a little more welcoming and just be available if he has any problems?


Excellent point, turnera.

I would just add that the OP would help the attacks to die down if he were to stop responding to them.


----------



## TRy

lost in Iowa said:


> I meant to say its not sex, yes it is cheating.


For you to now say that you “meant to say its not sex, yes it is cheating” is a bit disingenuous when you consider that it was not just a single slip of the tongue that you quickly corrected when first pointed out. The fact that there was a long debate with you based you insisting on calling it an emotional affair that was not physical, adds further to this disconnect. After so many years of marriage, if you do not want to divorce her over her most recent cheating that is your right, and I even understand it. The fact that you minimize what she did by calling it an emotional affair while denying that it was physical cheating for so long is what I took exception to. If you read the summary below, and compare it with your most recent post above, you will see that your post above does not match up with the facts.

In post #629 I said “Because you minimize her last affair by calling it an emotional affair (EA) even though it was physical enough that you know that they were at least kissing and groping.” You responded in post #630: “If her EA is physical because the two kissed, then almost every EA is physical. Do they have to kiss? How about just touching or holding hands? When you have a broad definition of something, then everything qualifies as physically cheating.” In response to this I said in post #636: “So in your mind your wife can "kiss and grope" and be groped and that is not "physically cheating"? That is one of the messages that you are sending your wife after her last affair.” To which you responded in post #640 “Do I think kissing and groping are physically cheating, no I do not.” And to another poster you stated in post #652: “To you, kissing and groping is physical cheating, that is your opinion, I would say it is not. We both disagree with the definition of physical cheating. To me, its sex, oral or anything else is physical cheating. Kissing and groping is not physical cheating to me.” I responded to this in post #657: ”You actually just said that "Kissing and groping is not physical cheating". You may not think that kissing and groping is sex, and you may not think that it is something that you want to divorce over, but are you really saying that kissing and groping it is not "cheating"? And if you do agree that it is cheating, are you really then saying that it is not "physical"? Because if you agree that it is "cheating" and it is "physical", then you are just playing dishonest word games with yourself in not acknowledging it for what it is, "physical cheating".” Again, in light of all your other prior posts on the topic, your answer to my most recent post that you “meant to say its not sex, yes it is cheating” does not match up. This is important because it is indicative of how you have been responding to advice that you do not want to hear.

Now that we both agree that kissing and groping is “physical cheating”, are you still going to call her most recent cheating as only a emotional affair (EA), or are you going to acknowledge that it was more than that not just to us here on this thread, but more importantly when you discuss it with your wife? 

The decision to divorce or not to divorce is your decision alone. It is your life, you are there, you know her better than we do, and you are the one that has so much to lose. I just ask that if you do try to reconcile with her that it be a true reconciliation effort based on you seeing things for what they are, and on her really understanding what she has done and needs to do. Good luck and be well.


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## lost in Iowa

TRy said:


> For you to now say that you “meant to say its not sex, yes it is cheating” is a bit disingenuous when you consider that it was not just a single slip of the tongue that you quickly corrected when first pointed out. The fact that there was a long debate with you based you insisting on calling it an emotional affair that was not physical, adds further to this disconnect. After so many years of marriage, if you do not want to divorce her over her most recent cheating that is your right, and I even understand it. The fact that you minimize what she did by calling it an emotional affair while denying that it was physical cheating for so long is what I took exception to. If you read the summary below, and compare it with your most recent post above, you will see that your post above does not match up with the facts.
> 
> In post #629 I said “Because you minimize her last affair by calling it an emotional affair (EA) even though it was physical enough that you know that they were at least kissing and groping.” You responded in post #630: “If her EA is physical because the two kissed, then almost every EA is physical. Do they have to kiss? How about just touching or holding hands? When you have a broad definition of something, then everything qualifies as physically cheating.” In response to this I said in post #636: “So in your mind your wife can "kiss and grope" and be groped and that is not "physically cheating"? That is one of the messages that you are sending your wife after her last affair.” To which you responded in post #640 “Do I think kissing and groping are physically cheating, no I do not.” And to another poster you stated in post #652: “To you, kissing and groping is physical cheating, that is your opinion, I would say it is not. We both disagree with the definition of physical cheating. To me, its sex, oral or anything else is physical cheating. Kissing and groping is not physical cheating to me.” I responded to this in post #657: ”You actually just said that "Kissing and groping is not physical cheating". You may not think that kissing and groping is sex, and you may not think that it is something that you want to divorce over, but are you really saying that kissing and groping it is not "cheating"? And if you do agree that it is cheating, are you really then saying that it is not "physical"? Because if you agree that it is "cheating" and it is "physical", then you are just playing dishonest word games with yourself in not acknowledging it for what it is, "physical cheating".” Again, in light of all your other prior posts on the topic, your answer to my most recent post that you “meant to say its not sex, yes it is cheating” does not match up. This is important because it is indicative of how you have been responding to advice that you do not want to hear.
> 
> Now that we both agree that kissing and groping is “physical cheating”, are you still going to call her most recent cheating as only a emotional affair (EA), or are you going to acknowledge that it was more than that not just to us here on this thread, but more importantly when you discuss it with your wife?
> 
> The decision to divorce or not to divorce is your decision alone. It is your life, you are there, you know her better than we do, and you are the one that has so much to lose. I just ask that if you do try to reconcile with her that it be a true reconciliation effort based on you seeing things for what they are, and on her really understanding what she has done and needs to do. Good luck and be well.


Let me be clear, so you do not mistake what I am saying. No I do not think kissing and groping is a physical affair. OK, is that clear enough, to me and when I looked up the definition of physical affair it included sex, oral sex and a few other varieties of sex, but strangely said nothing about kissing and groping. I suppose under your definition holding hands would be a physical affair, would it not. Why are you so caught up in this anyway? It was a emotional affair, they met once and kissed and groped, they did not go any further than that. If you think this was a physical affair, great, but do not try and convince me of that. I see a HUGE difference between what my wife did this time and the first time. The first affair they had sex, they took off their cloths and went at it, this time was completely different. How is admitted to myself that it was indeed a physical affair not an emotional one going to help me? Is it going to shed some new light on our situation, is it going to help us in reconciliation? You are playing word games to make your point, that is all. My wife and I have discussed what she did many times, I read their emails, and she walked me through the day they met. I check what she said to the emails, they both matched. EA or your definition of a PA, what does it matter, she cheated, that is what we are working on. Now if I had found out that they had sex, we would no longer be in reconciliation but divorce. I have told her before, the emails condemned you, but they also saved you, it showed me that is all they did.


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## lost in Iowa

carmen ohio said:


> Excellent point, turnera.
> 
> I would just add that the OP would help the attacks to die down if he were to stop responding to them.


You may be right, but why attack someone in the first place? Look at the post below, the person is saying kissing and groping is a PA, what does it matter? Cheating is cheating, but not having sex is a lot better than banging each other for months or years. I suppose its the way that she cheated this time that keeps me here. I just feel our marriage is less at risk this time then her PA. I am not down playing what she did, but would you rather know your wife was talking to someone on the internet or meeting the person and sleeping with them? Neither is right, but the first is different. Plus, I have found that unless I post, no one else does, I suppose its the hazard of posting anything at all. I just want everyone to know, that its early, but things are improving. Will we make it, I have no clue, but we are both trying. Thanks again. LIO


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## lost in Iowa

Chaparral said:


> Having cheated twice puts your wife in the category of serial cheater. That's the biggest reason, I believe so many have suggested divorce. The experience here and many experts say serial cheaters can't be fixed.
> 
> You are on the ground there and you should do what you think is best. There used to be a lot more folks here that would guide people through reconciliation. Somehow they have the knack of getting perma banned. My own experience here is making me lean away from reconciliation. Too many get played and hurt again. Risking that kind of hurt again takes courage.


I wish you were right, but my wife having two affairs has nothing to do with what the divorce group is saying. Look through different threads on this forum, the same people say the same thing, divorce almost every time. That is what I am fighting, I am not a pushover, my eyes are wide open, she is transparent in her actions, but some just have to knit pick on every detail. For some its like a hobby, they have to protect the offended spouse, they see it all most like their duty, and I have no use for them. Like I said before, I came here for advise, maybe to vent a little, and see different options, not to be attacked. I reread the first two pages of this thread, of the first 15 posts not including mine, 12 said divorce. That is way to many, we should be trying to get couples to work out their problems if both at least want to try, not immediately look to end it and go on with your life.


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## sapientia

turnera said:


> I think he's doing fine. I prefer that people try to save marriages. He knows what he's doing, he knows what to watch out for, how about we stop spending dozens and dozens of pages attacking him and make this a little more welcoming and just be available if he has any problems?


I agree with Turnera. It's his life. Let him live it. He's looking for R post-affair, and his decision is made. There are many ways this can be accomplished. Noone here owns "The Right Answer". If its working for them right now, let them live their experience. Perhaps he will be able to come back someday with advice different from what is the current standard. Or not. But it's his life and experience to live.

Good luck Iowa, carry on.


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## TRy

Turnera is right. We need to back off.

LiI I get where you are coming from. You have been married to this person that you love for so many years, and have only had fidelity issues in the last few years. It is easy for others to sit back and give advice that we view to be sound and logical, but for you there is so much more than that to consider. It was not my intent to make your path harder, but if I have, I apologize. You sound like a decent person and your wife is lucky to have you. I truly wish you the best of luck.


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## bigfoot

I guess the real question is whether his wife thinks whether what she did constituted a PA. See, LII clearly does not and that is absolutely fine with me, but the first issue is what did *she* intend?

Think of it this way, if she shot you with a BB gun, knowing it was a BB gun, then she did not intend to kill you. Sure you might get hurt, but not mortally wounded. OTOH, if she intended to shoot you with a real gun, but shot you with a BB gun then her intent is clearer. Sure, you may think, "it was a BB gun, so that is not as serious" but if you knew that she thought it was a real gun, then your whole perspective might change on whether to work it out or what it was going to take to make you feel that she was serious.

I am not advocating divorce, and I don't really care if you call it a PA or EA or Quasi EA/PA or whatever. I am saying that your desire to reconcile, no matter how strong it may be, cannot earn her credits that she does not deserve. It could have been a full long distance EA wherein she was planning on leaving you, emptying the bank accounts and taking everything. Her intent is what mattered.

In order for her to do the "heavy lifting" that so many believe proves a WS's commitment to R, both of you need to know what exactly she is trying to lift. how far did she go in her mind, how far back does she have to come, why did she go there in the first place, etc. Before atonement can begin, we must know the full scope of that which needs to be atoned.


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## oneMOreguy

I really do not want to come across as a newcomer to this thread who is just piling on but.....

I have a great concern about your wife's true feelings toward you. Women as a general rule do not stray, physically or emotionally, from a marriage while still being truly in love with their husband. And once those in love feelings have been broken, they don't seem to just come back quickly, if at all. 

I am stating this in the hopes you do not mistake her actions or her stated feelings for the true emotions a wife should have for her husband. That takes more than just feeling guilty or being scared to end a long term marriage. Your wife really did back out of her marriage to you. Her now valuing the marriage so quickly seems way too convenient. And you seemingly not challenging her seems to be taking the smooth path.

I have no great words of advice, just wanted to caution you about this aspect. I wish you well.


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## Voltaire2013

The most pertinent question in my mind would be 'what's different now?' How did she or you change? How does that change the marriage dynamic?'

I do wish you well, I'm a sucker for reconciliation. ;-)

Cheers,
V(13)




oneMOreguy said:


> I really do not want to come across as a newcomer to this thread who is just piling on but.....
> 
> I have a great concern about your wife's true feelings toward you. Women as a general rule do not stray, physically or emotionally, from a marriage while still being truly in love with their husband. And once those in love feelings have been broken, they don't seem to just come back quickly, if at all.
> 
> I am stating this in the hopes you do not mistake her actions or her stated feelings for the true emotions a wife should have for her husband. That takes more than just feeling guilty or being scared to end a long term marriage. Your wife really did back out of her marriage to you. Her now valuing the marriage so quickly seems way too convenient. And you seemingly not challenging her seems to be taking the smooth path.
> 
> I have no great words of advice, just wanted to caution you about this aspect. I wish you well.


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## Acoa

lost in Iowa said:


> I wish you were right, but my wife having two affairs has nothing to do with what the divorce group is saying. Look through different threads on this forum, the same people say the same thing, divorce almost every time. That is what I am fighting, I am not a pushover, my eyes are wide open, she is transparent in her actions, but some just have to knit pick on every detail. For some its like a hobby, they have to protect the offended spouse, they see it all most like their duty, and I have no use for them. Like I said before, I came here for advise, maybe to vent a little, and see different options, not to be attacked. I reread the first two pages of this thread, of the first 15 posts not including mine, 12 said divorce. That is way to many, we should be trying to get couples to work out their problems if both at least want to try, not immediately look to end it and go on with your life.


To be fair, most said "File for Divorce". Which is quite a bit different than following through with it. I think the time for that has passed in your case. It's something to be done quickly after Dday. It's to begin the process of detachment for the betrayed, and allowing the consequences of the wayward's actions to set in. It breaks dysfunctional patterns of codependency (if they exist). 

The person who filed can call it off at anytime. If you feel your wife understands how she has hurt the relationship, and is doing everything possible to repair. Then by all means stick it out and try to reconcile. Just be guarded. You can enjoy the good days and still prepare yourself mentally and physically for what 'could' happen. 

Do you have a specific plan on what you will do if she cheats again? Does she know your plan? Does she believe you will/can follow through with it? 

In my case, I found out my EX cheated. It was a shock to me. Not in a million years would I have thought she would do that to me. What I had discovered was an online romance, which included graphic sexual descriptions. A plan to cheat physically if you will, but no actual proof of any physical contact. She denied that, and we reconciled. 2 years of counselling later it turns out she was have multiple other physical affairs. One of them long term (over 2 years) all the time going to marital counselling and putting on the guise of the good wife who had learned her lesson and was so sorry for any pain she caused me.

Hopefully that isn't your future. But be prepared for that. I told my EX early after Dday that I was gifting her with a 2nd chance. But that if I found out more about that day, or there was a new affair. We would be over. I would file so fast it would make her head spin. Apparently she either didn't believe me or didn't care. But I did follow through. I filed within the week and was divorced within 6 month. 

It still sucked. But, I did have a plan. I wasn't thinking right in the aftermath of the 2nd discovery, and having a plan to follow helped me get things right. It would have been tempting for me to try and 'punish' her during the divorce. But, because I had my priorities already defined I was able to be logical and reasonable. A fact which helped me greatly in court.


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## lost in Iowa

Acoa said:


> To be fair, most said "File for Divorce". Which is quite a bit different than following through with it. I think the time for that has passed in your case. It's something to be done quickly after Dday. It's to begin the process of detachment for the betrayed, and allowing the consequences of the wayward's actions to set in. It breaks dysfunctional patterns of codependency (if they exist).
> 
> The person who filed can call it off at anytime. If you feel your wife understands how she has hurt the relationship, and is doing everything possible to repair. Then by all means stick it out and try to reconcile. Just be guarded. You can enjoy the good days and still prepare yourself mentally and physically for what 'could' happen.
> 
> Do you have a specific plan on what you will do if she cheats again? Does she know your plan? Does she believe you will/can follow through with it?
> 
> In my case, I found out my EX cheated. It was a shock to me. Not in a million years would I have thought she would do that to me. What I had discovered was an online romance, which included graphic sexual descriptions. A plan to cheat physically if you will, but no actual proof of any physical contact. She denied that, and we reconciled. 2 years of counselling later it turns out she was have multiple other physical affairs. One of them long term (over 2 years) all the time going to marital counselling and putting on the guise of the good wife who had learned her lesson and was so sorry for any pain she caused me.
> 
> Hopefully that isn't your future. But be prepared for that. I told my EX early after Dday that I was gifting her with a 2nd chance. But that if I found out more about that day, or there was a new affair. We would be over. I would file so fast it would make her head spin. Apparently she either didn't believe me or didn't care. But I did follow through. I filed within the week and was divorced within 6 month.
> 
> It still sucked. But, I did have a plan. I wasn't thinking right in the aftermath of the 2nd discovery, and having a plan to follow helped me get things right. It would have been tempting for me to try and 'punish' her during the divorce. But, because I had my priorities already defined I was able to be logical and reasonable. A fact which helped me greatly in court.


My plan if she cheats again is to divorce her immediately, and yes she knows that. I have told her repeatedly the past two months. I have good days and bad days, just like anyone going through reconciliation, the worst times for me is when I am in the car on my commute back and forth to work. I am still looking at everything she does and checking her phone and note book. Hoping for the best.


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## lost in Iowa

Do the people here that have gone through a spouse having an affair, ever feel like giving up? That is where I am now, its been 5 months since I last posted, we are still together, trying to wade through this process. But there are nights like tonight, where I wonder "is it really worth it?" My wife has found religion, she says that she is true to me, but I still have doubts, I still wonder not if, but when she will hurt me again. She is frustrated, as am I, when does this hell end, or does it ever end? I guess I am tired of playing detective, of looking at her phone for clues, of questioning everything she does during the day. I still love my wife, but I am not sure that is enough any more. Maybe I am just tired of this, tonight, I was watching the ballgame, she went upstairs, I noticed she had taken her phone with her, and I wondered why. In the past, times like this, is when she would talk to her EA, I told her to come downstairs with me, to spend time together, and when she did, she said "I did not trust her." I told her "no, I do not, trust is earned not given" I could see the pain in her eyes, as we talked, maybe I am just fed up, its hard to be 54, and see an uncertain future. We should be planning for retirement, spending time with our grandchildren, not worrying about are we going to be together a year from now. I know I have been hard on people on this board, and I am truly sorry for that, but I really want to know, does this hell ever end?
Thanks for listening.

Lost in Iowa


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## turnera

What's your routine been like these past months? Therapy? Time with friends? Monthly state of the marriage meeting? Exercise? Sports?


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## GusPolinski

Have the two of you attended any sort of counseling together?


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## lost in Iowa

Yes, we have been to counseling together, and I go back by myself on the 22nd. My routine is the same as always, nothing has changed. Job situation is dicey right now, but we will be ok. I guess what I am asking, is "when does it get better?" I saw some data the other day that says it takes 3-5 years to feel normal again. Whatever "normal" is, I have no clue. When we last talked to the counselor, I told him, "I am tired of playing detective, of looking for clues, of trying to find out have I missed anything or is there anything she has not told me. I know she is hurting, she is ashamed of what she did, we almost broke up at Thanksgiving, but didn't. That is when she invited a family friend over to our house, her husband is a preacher, they talked, I explained what she did, my wife said it was all true. I guess I am just tired of the crap days like today. For 30 years of our marriage, I never wondered if she was true to me, but the last 6 have just been have one good day or week, and then self doubt about what we are doing here.


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## farsidejunky

Welcome back, LII.

No matter what happens, it won't be the same as it was. Quite frankly, that isn't a bad thing, as that relationship was clearly not healthy.

But LII, here is what we were trying to tell you several months back. You had been carrying this reconciliation, whether it actually SHOULD happen or not. Has that changed?

Your wife must...MUST...step up here. What is she doing to build that trust in you again? If she is being transparent, she should be showing you rather than you having to look. She shouldn't just accept the gift of reconciliation, she should be thanking you every damn day for not putting her out on her butt. Is that happening?

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## CoolHandLuke

You have to stop playing marriage cop. If you don't go all in on R then there is no point. BTW, she went upstairs because you were "watching a ballgame". Stop doing that. Do something with her that both of you enjoy. Engage with her whenever you're together.


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## Hicks

I don't have time to read your whole post.

You have to get to a a point where you understand what it was about your marriage or your wife that was a conduit for her to cheat.

Is it that she is a crappy person with no morals?
Is it that she needed an outlet from a life that is not fulfilling her?

If it's the former, then you elect to live in limbo since you don't want to divorce. If it's the latter, honestly to get over all of this you have to swallow your pride, work with your wife to create a mutually fulfilling marriage... And gain the confidence that with a mutually fulfilling marriage you have closed the conduit for cheating off. And assign the potential for her to cheat again as something similar to someone dying suddenly. Could happen, but don't let the thought of it ruin your life.


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## bfree

It takes 2-5 years for a marriage to recover from infidelity and that's only if BOTH parties are giving everything they've got. This is still early in the process, way too early for her to expect you to trust her. And she needs to be proactive when it comes to rebuilding your trust level. For instance she needs to think more about her actions and how they might trigger you. She should have left her phone downstairs when she went up or at the very least she should have acknowledged that she was taking it upstairs to put it on charge or whatever. It's just a small example but an important one. EI is a former WS on TAM although she rarely posts anymore. One thing she did during the early days. Knowing that it would trigger her husband she would text and send pictures of herself and her hairdresser when she went for an appointment because her hairdresser was nearby to one of the places she met her affair partner. She not only volunteered to take that extra reassuring step but she thought of it herself as a way to alleviate his anxiety and continue trust building. That's the kind of thing that your wife should be looking to do to help you work through her betrayal. If your wife is not doing these things it's no wonder you're burning out in the reconciliation process.


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## Vulcan2013

It's only been 6 months, and she cheated on you for 5 years. It will take about that long to rebuild trust. Her being hurt you don't trust, and upset you were triggered (you were reminded of an old behavior pattern, this is due to trauma), shows entitlement, part of the attitude of an unfaithful person. 

What has she done to fix herself? To help you heal (beyond words)?

I'd recommend you both read Linda McDonald's "How to Help Your Spouse Heal From an Affair". There are positive, concrete steps she can take. If she's not willing, I'd suggest you hit the eject button. If she is (actions, not words), you need to work together to build intimacy. I'd suggest "His Needs, Her Needs" as a source of ideas. Spend at least 15 hours a week together. If you are looking at a screen, it doesn't count.


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## Vulcan2013

And it's too late now, but a lot of the get tough advice was to shake her up and get her willing to work. You can still let her know that if she doesn't work on things you will move on.


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## bankshot1993

Isn't it funny how things come full circle? Lost in iowa, you were pretty staunchly defending your position of reconciliation a few months ago as the detractors attacked your resolution and now you find yourself challenging that position, wondering if it was a mistake.

I for one will say I'm happy for you in trying to make the effort to fix your marriage instead of throwing it away like yesterdays trash. There will be good days and bad and only you are going to know if its worth it. All that I will say is every time you find yourself questioning that take a moment to reflect on why you made the decision to try in the first place. Has anything changed since then?

Yes it gets tiresome always playing detective and digging for the dirt. There is a reason for that, your trust has been broken and to rebuild it you must face the demons that brought you to the hell you're in. Each time you dig, it serves as a reminder of why your digging and you feel the pain of the betrayal all over again. When those wounds heal, only then will you feel the security you need to stop digging and with it the piece of mind you need so badly.

You've decided to stay, to work it out and recommit to your relationship and that's great, I wish you all the luck in accomplishing your goals. You've made up your mind about what will happen if there is another betrayal, be true to yourself and don't waiver if it happens again. The rest is up to her, allow yourself to heal and move on. I'm not saying to not be diligent, always watch for the signs. But you saw the signs before and you know what they are, trust in yourself that you will see them again. But picking at the wound everyday is only hurting you further.

You've made your decision, now believe in it.


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## lost in Iowa

Nothing has changed, found out a few more details, but that is it. Yes, I still think that in my case staying together at this time is my best decision. In the future, I do not know. I guess I am less sure of myself and our marriage than what I was four months ago. Do I think I made the wrong decision, no, but I do worry about our future together. I guess I am just tired of checking up on her, she is doing and saying everything that I expect, but both of us are just frustrated, wanting to put this behind us and move on with our lives. In counseling, I was told you are either committed to the marriage, headed for divorce or in-between. Basically told if you think this is not going to work, then divorce, or stay married. He thought I was in-between, and I have to agree with him. I want this work out, I still love my wife, but I am just wore down. I know she is trying, she is totally open and honest, but I still have my doubts. That is what I am fighting with now, is she really telling me the truth or is she lying, and I just do not see it.


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## bfree

lost in Iowa said:


> Nothing has changed, found out a few more details, but that is it. Yes, I still think that in my case staying together at this time is my best decision. In the future, I do not know. I guess I am less sure of myself and our marriage than what I was four months ago. Do I think I made the wrong decision, no, but I do worry about our future together. I guess I am just tired of checking up on her, she is doing and saying everything that I expect, but both of us are just frustrated, wanting to put this behind us and move on with our lives. In counseling, I was told you are either committed to the marriage, headed for divorce or in-between. Basically told if you think this is not going to work, then divorce, or stay married. He thought I was in-between, and I have to agree with him. I want this work out, I still love my wife, but I am just wore down. I know she is trying, she is totally open and honest, but I still have my doubts. That is what I am fighting with now, is she really telling me the truth or is she lying, and I just do not see it.


I gave you an example above of one thing that EI did to reassure her husband and rebuild trust. It has often been said that rebuilding trust after a betrayal is like trying to walk through quicksand. It seems as if she is no longer pushing you further down in the muck but is she offering you a helping hand or even a rope to help you not sink further? Other than not hiding things what actions has your wife taken or is taking to help you navigate this mine field?


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## farsidejunky

bfree said:


> I gave you an example above of one thing that EI did to reassure her husband and rebuild trust. It has often been said that rebuilding trust after a betrayal is like trying to walk through quicksand. It seems as if she is no longer pushing you further down in the muck but is she offering you a helping hand or even a rope to help you not sink further? Other than not hiding things what actions has your wife taken or is taking to help you navigate this mine field?


LII, these thing Bfree are talking about are true indicators of remorse.

Does she do these? 

Is she capable?

My impression of your wife, from your words, was always of a very demure, submissive woman. Did I misread that? It can complicate her ability to do these things.

Also, was she planning the meet ups or was she "along for the ride" so to speak (along not in a dirty way, but rather tying it back in to the last paragraph)?

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## Satya

LII, 

For some of us, we know our boundaries, and regardless of our feeling or desire for turning back time, we act quite exactly where those boundaries are crossed. You've chosen a path to R, and the "right" thing in your mind is almost never the easiest to do. 

We see posters trying to R with completely remorseless or only half-remorseful spouses. They question as you do whether they want to carry on "like this" or, "is this how it will be from now on?" My answer to that would be, yes, if you let it,yes if you've agreed to it. 

Even if remorse is happening well and to or beyond your expectations, then there are going to be periods where you ask yourself if this is what you want still. Is this what she really wants or is she just going through the motions? It's OK to reassess. How can you know until you give something time? 

6 months is a piece of the usual 2-5 years of healing. So many think it's a joke when they're told here, but when you decide to R, it takes consistent work from both spouses in different ways - she needs to reassure and regain trust, you need to work through your feelings and trust again. Sometimes marriages grow stronger from the process and sometimes they just fizzle because the task is too difficult for one or both. It takes time to find that out.

So, I say again, some of us choose to take that time and some of us do not. The choice you made isn't etched in stone as far as I can see, but if you have chosen it with all your heart, then prepare to give it the time it'll need. Be mindful of your own healing process. Be mindful that she may change her mind.


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## eric1

lost in Iowa said:


> Do the people here that have gone through a spouse having an affair, ever feel like giving up? That is where I am now, its been 5 months since I last posted, we are still together, trying to wade through this process. But there are nights like tonight, where I wonder "is it really worth it?" My wife has found religion, she says that she is true to me, but I still have doubts, I still wonder not if, but when she will hurt me again. She is frustrated, as am I, when does this hell end, or does it ever end? I guess I am tired of playing detective, of looking at her phone for clues, of questioning everything she does during the day. I still love my wife, but I am not sure that is enough any more. Maybe I am just tired of this, tonight, I was watching the ballgame, she went upstairs, I noticed she had taken her phone with her, and I wondered why. In the past, times like this, is when she would talk to her EA, I told her to come downstairs with me, to spend time together, and when she did, she said "I did not trust her." I told her "no, I do not, trust is earned not given" I could see the pain in her eyes, as we talked, maybe I am just fed up, its hard to be 54, and see an uncertain future. We should be planning for retirement, spending time with our grandchildren, not worrying about are we going to be together a year from now. I know I have been hard on people on this board, and I am truly sorry for that, but I really want to know, does this hell ever end?
> Thanks for listening.
> 
> Lost in Iowa



It may not be worth it.

However if you want the honest truth, if you're really committed to reconciliation, you will not know this for sure for quite some time. A normal guideline is 2-5 years but this can obviously differ based upon individual.

The decision to try this without guaranteed success or if you should cut bait is an awful decision that I wouldn't wish upon my worst enemy.


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## naiveonedave

I will say this OP, your councilor is not helping. You are too close to DDay to be 'all in'. You need your W to prove she is all in first, then heal, then you are all in. I think you are still a few months from this.


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## Tron

eric1 said:


> It may not be worth it.
> 
> However if you want the honest truth, if you're really committed to reconciliation, you will not know this for sure for quite some time. A normal guideline is 2-5 years but this can obviously differ based upon individual.


The bad thing is that LII is 54 years old now. 

Say this takes 5 years to get things worked out in his mind; then he says "F' this I am outta here". 

How would you like entering the dating pool at 60 years old? 

I honestly can't think of anything that would suck worse.


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## bfree

naiveonedave said:


> I will say this OP, your councilor is not helping. You are too close to DDay to be 'all in'. You need your W to prove she is all in first, then heal, then you are all in. I think you are still a few months from this.


Lost, next time your counselor tells you that you have to be all in or all out give him this analogy.

Not long ago your wife pushed you down a flight of stairs. She said it was a mistake and you are trying to forgive her. Your arms are both still broken. You approach the end of the floor. It's dark. There's a light switch on the wall next to you but you can't switch it on because your arms are broken. Your wife tells you to trust her, that the stairs are there and safe even though you can't see them. That she'll help you down the stairs. You ask her to turn the lights on and her response is "why, you don't trust me?"


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## Amplexor

lost in Iowa said:


> I guess what I am asking, is "when does it get better?" I saw some data the other day that says it takes 3-5 years to feel normal again. Whatever "normal" is, I have no clue. When we last talked to the counselor, I told him, "I am tired of playing detective, of looking for clues, of trying to find out have I missed anything or is there anything she has not told me. I know she is hurting, she is ashamed of what she did, we almost broke up at Thanksgiving, but didn't. That is when she invited a family friend over to our house, her husband is a preacher, they talked, I explained what she did, my wife said it was all true. I guess I am just tired of the crap days like today. For 30 years of our marriage, I never wondered if she was true to me, but the last 6 have just been have one good day or week, and then self doubt about what we are doing here.


Our recovery took 3.5 years until I felt the reconciliation was complete and we were in a very good place again. "Playing detective" is an awful place to be. You want to trust your spouse, but you can't. You are angered that you feel so sh**y about snooping when it's not your fault. Insecurities continue to haunt you and it seems it will never go away. Accept the fact that while trust may come back, it may have an asterisk next to it for a very long time. It has been 9 years since D-Day and I still have minor triggers now and again but no desire or need to go snooping on her. You are still too close to D-Day to be healed. Infidelity cuts very deep and time and work by both of you is what is needed to heal. She will have to accept that she broke the trust and must rebuild it. She is trying to distance herself from this as much as possible and feels you are holding her back. Well that's just tough. She is on your time schedule not hers.

Can it get better, yes. Can the marriage be stronger, yes. Continue to work together in the recovery and if in the end you manage to find yourselves happy and whole again, all the effort will be well worth it.


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## ConanHub

I am fully convinced you made a huge mistake trying to R with your WW.

I am also fully convinced you have gone about R the wrong way, not being nearly as tough and way too much of a nice guy with your serial cheating wife.

Understand that you have chosen to continue to be harmed by this unhealthy relationship.

At this point it is on you.

You are not at fault that your wife keeps screwing around on you but you are absolutely responsible for your reactions to her infidelities.

The mess you are in is certainly in large part, your doing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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