# REALLY BAD advice column



## Daisy Etta (Aug 13, 2014)

I just saw this advice column and it made me so angry, I have signed in here to show it to my fellow betrayed. I am also going to write the columnist; maybe some of you should tell him, too.

He gets a letter asking if the one BS should tell the other BS that there's an affair, and he says "absolutely not". OMFG I hate this answer!!! As a betrayed spouse, I would have welcomed information from ANY source. Hell, if the OW herself would have given me creditable information I would have been glad to get it. I don't care if the motivation is concern, revenge, or sadism, as long as I get the information. 

No person should be living their life, making decisions about their future, without full information about what that life actually is. If the guy thinks he has a normal marriage, everything he expects and prepares for is based on that; if otoh he is living with a cheating wife, he deserves to know. Ya think it might just change how he sees his future finances? Family planning? Retirement? 

The columnist actually makes some reference to a possibility that the BH may know and accept his wife's affair. As I am sure that people here know, that chance is one in a billion or so (even though many cheaters try to justify their behavior by saying that, oh it's ok, my spouse 'secretly' knows and condones my selfishness). But even if that particular BH is the one in a billion knowing cuckold, so how does that excuse not mentioning it to him? If he already knows, telling him won't change anything, will it? So why advise not to tell?

There is NO reason not to tell, and there are a ton of reasons to DO IT. As a betrayed wife, I beg anyone who knows about cheating to take pity on the BS and pass on what you know. Don't let people unknowingly live a fake life. We only have one life to live. 

Here's a link to the column. 
https://www.thestar.com/life/2016/1...ld-i-tell-her-partner-ethically-speaking.html


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## tropicalbeachiwish (Jun 1, 2016)

If I knew that someone was getting cheated on and I was confident of it, I would certainly tell the betrayed. I would want to know.


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## MovingFrwrd (Dec 22, 2015)

I would have wanted to know, in fact it's part of my anger at the OM's wife - she had seen signs and one time had even confronted my wife. I guess I should have seen signs when my wife told me she was confronted... It's amazing how little you see when you think you're safe! I guess she never had definite proof.


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## syhoybenden (Feb 21, 2013)

You're referencing something in the Toronto Star, right? Well what did you expect. That paper is one god-awful rag, not even fit for recycling into toilet paper.


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## drifter777 (Nov 25, 2013)

First, I admire your passion and understand your point - most BS's feel this same way. I don't.

It is true that the BS knows about the affair and is willing to live with it. If this is the case I don't see that a person could do any harm by telling BS about their spouse cheating. Bottom line: who cares?

If it is the WS who is deciding whether to tell their BS about their cheating then my opinion is different. If you are having an exit affair than just keep it up until BS finds out on their own. WS has nothing to lose or gain by holding back the truth. This kind of affair may even keep the marriage going for a while because WS is being emotionally and sexually satisfied somewhere so decides to just live a lie. If BS never finds out than so be it.

If you are a WS and honestly want to stay in your marriage but cheat anyway then it is more complicated. You have to determine the chances of your BS busting you. If you honestly believe the odds are overwhelming that BS will never find out then I think WS should never burden their BS with this painful knowledge. WS must understand that if they really do want to stay in the marriage and think they "love" their BS then their cheating being discovered lower the chances of successful reconciliation. If they are willing to take that risk than living with the guilt to spare BS is a kindness.

I know that I wish there was some way to erase my memory. If I never knew about my wife's cheating it would have saved me a tremendous amount of pain. I don't understand why any BS would want to know if they could have been spared this traumatic truth.

I know this is not a popular view but I'd ask people not to attack me and my logic. Just make your own points addressing OP.


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## Daisy Etta (Aug 13, 2014)

drifter777 said:


> If you are having an exit affair than just keep it up until BS finds out on their own. WS has nothing to lose or gain by holding back the truth. This kind of affair may even keep the marriage going for a while because WS is being emotionally and sexually satisfied somewhere so decides to just live a lie. If BS never finds out than so be it.


"SO BE IT"?????!!!!! Oh, I guess it's ok if the WS gets sexually satisfied with some other THING and potentially brings a deadly disease home to the loyal partner. So nice for the WS to "decide to live a lie". WHEN DOES THE BS GET TO DECIDE? Oh that's right, the loyal spouse doesn't count. It's all about the WS.



> If you are a WS and honestly want to stay in your marriage but cheat anyway then it is more complicated. You have to determine the chances of your BS busting you. If you honestly believe the odds are overwhelming that BS will never find out then I think WS should never burden their BS with this painful knowledge. WS must understand that if they really do want to stay in the marriage and think they "love" their BS then their cheating being discovered lower the chances of successful reconciliation. If they are willing to take that risk than living with the guilt to spare BS is a kindness.


So, sure, WS determine the chances of getting caught. Then gives themself permission to ruin someone's life -- someone whom they once loved enough to vow the rest of their life to. It is not a kindness to lie to your spouse. It is only "kindness" to the WS as they continue to get their cake and eat it too. Grasp this: it's not the cheating being discovered that "lowers your chance with the BS", it is CHEATING IN THE FIRST PLACE. I guess WS can't see that for the rainbows and unicorns that are sparkling all over their AP.



> I know that I wish there was some way to erase my memory. If I never knew about my wife's cheating it would have saved me a tremendous amount of pain. I don't understand why any BS would want to know if they could have been spared this traumatic truth.


The cheating happened, whether you knew about it or not. The pain and humiliation happened to you either way, but if you didn't know about the affair, it happened behind your back. But it still happened. And the longer it goes on before you find out, the bigger the amount of pain will be. You will never be spared the pain. It's only a question of: find out now and get working on going past the pain now; or find out later and have a lot more pain and a lot less time to get past it in.


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## Tatsuhiko (Jun 21, 2016)

There are very few cases where one should lie or hide the truth. Matters of national security, yes. And answers to questions like "Are you hiding Anne Frank's family?" or "Do these pants make me look fat?"

Other than those examples, anyone who advocates deception is a PIG in my book. Bottom line, all of us would WANT to know the truth about our spouse's malfeasance, therefore we should extend the same courtesy to others.


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

Had he cheated and stopped, realized he was wrong and recommitted to the marriage......I wouldn't want to know. People are fallible and they suck. Realize your mistake and change your behavior, keep me in the dark.

But since I KNOW, I'll never forget. Ever. Makes it worse the behavior didn't change and I found so many things while the lies CONTINUE.

I'd rather find out on my deathbed that he had an affair 30 years prior, regretted it and stopped than live every day knowing I was never worth stopping for.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

I see that he doesn't allow comments on his article.


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## Haiku (Apr 9, 2014)

I think I'd behave as the columnist described. I only speak for myself.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

LosingHim said:


> Had he cheated and stopped, realized he was wrong and recommitted to the marriage......I wouldn't want to know. People are fallible and they suck. Realize your mistake and change your behavior, keep me in the dark.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




You are very wise young lady.


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## Daisy Etta (Aug 13, 2014)

LosingHim said:


> Had he cheated and stopped, realized he was wrong and recommitted to the marriage......I wouldn't want to know. People are fallible and they suck. Realize your mistake and change your behavior, keep me in the dark.
> 
> But since I KNOW, I'll never forget. Ever. *Makes it worse the behavior didn't change* and I found so many things while the lies CONTINUE.
> 
> I'd rather find out on my deathbed that he had an affair 30 years prior, regretted it and stopped than live every day knowing I was never worth stopping for.


So, the behavior continued. As it would, if not discovered and addressed -- just read around here! So, what you risk finding out on your deathbed is: that he had an affair for the last 30 years and never stopped. IOW that the last 30 years of your life were not what you thought they were. And now you're on your deathbed and it's too late to fix things to lead a better (true) life. What a terrible waste of life.

If you were "never worth stopping for", knowing or not knowing does not change that. Knowing, I doubt you would still keep living the life you had (fix the problem and reconcile. take precautions. or split). Not knowing, does that mean you'd be happy about it when you found out years later? Really??? 

At least if you are given the chance to know, you get the choice on how you want to live your life. The other way, the cheater (and others who don't tell you) take the choice away from you entirely. Sort of like the premise of the movie The Truman Show.


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## Daisy Etta (Aug 13, 2014)

MattMatt said:


> I see that he doesn't allow comments on his article.


I emailed him. They give it as 
[email protected]


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## Tatsuhiko (Jun 21, 2016)

Daisy Etta said:


> I emailed him. They give it as
> [email protected]


The word "ethics" should not appear anywhere in the context of this article or the author's email address. What trash this article is. It doesn't even speak to the ethical dilemma or express any concept of right and wrong.

From what I gather, one is not supposed to expose the affair because it might make you look vengeful and therefore reduce your social standing. Really? Am I supposed to flee the scene of an accident I caused because it might "diminish" my image?

Then there are some lame rationalizations that the other betrayed party _might_ already know, so why bother informing them. Really? If the other party already knows, what's the harm then? 

Makes you think this whole magazine must be a piece of trash.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

I really don't understand "not wanting to know". I do understand that you think you would have less pain and that may be true. But how would you learn the real lesson the universe is trying to teach you? You might assume you were left because you didn't keep a clean enough house or make enough money. The reality was that your SO was cheating on you, but you would never know. You could go through the rest of life acting (and perhaps regretting) on something that wasn't the truth.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Ynot said:


> I really don't understand "not wanting to know". I do understand that you think you would have less pain and that may be true. But how would you learn the real lesson the universe is trying to teach you? You might assume you were left because you didn't keep a clean enough house or make enough money. The reality was that your SO was cheating on you, but you would never know. You could go through the rest of life acting (and perhaps regretting) on something that wasn't the truth.


I can see how ignorance might be a blessing of a sort.

But having to say: "Honey, my private bits appear to be dripping. Do you have anything you might feel you need to tell me?" Might be one potential result of such ignorance.

And NOT good, obviously.


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

Daisy Etta said:


> So, the behavior continued. As it would, if not discovered and addressed -- just read around here! So, what you risk finding out on your deathbed is: that he had an affair for the last 30 years and never stopped. IOW that the last 30 years of your life were not what you thought they were. And now you're on your deathbed and it's too late to fix things to lead a better (true) life. What a terrible waste of life.
> 
> If you were "never worth stopping for", knowing or not knowing does not change that. Knowing, I doubt you would still keep living the life you had (fix the problem and reconcile. take precautions. or split). Not knowing, does that mean you'd be happy about it when you found out years later? Really???
> 
> At least if you are given the chance to know, you get the choice on how you want to live your life. The other way, the cheater (and others who don't tell you) take the choice away from you entirely. Sort of like the premise of the movie The Truman Show.


I said if he had an affair, realized it was wrong and stopped. Not if he had a 30 year affair. There’s no real cut and dry with this. Had he had an affair 30 years prior for say 6 months, a year – stopped and rededicated himself to the marriage and tried to be a better husband, I don’t think I’d want to know. Had he been living a double life for 30 years, that’s different. Had he had a ONS one time, that’s different. There are so many LEVELS of infidelity. I’m more likely to forgive physical infidelity, rather than emotional. Emotional to me is harder to accept. Physical, I can rationalize into being human, thinking with your little head rather than your big head. We are a sexualized society. Hot women are tossed around every day life and the internet like cookies. We are expected to see these things, consume them, absorb them, but not act on them. I can scroll my facebook and see highly sexualized women every day. Like it’s just a normal thing for women with zero to little clothes to grace the timelines of your social media and every day life. As humans, we suck! We sexualize everything and then get angry when people can’t be monogamous. I question if the human species was meant to even BE monogamous at times. If we are, why is there so much temptation? Why does the human species increasingly become more attractive as time passes? Why is there so much temptation? Why are we made that our loins stir when we see an attractive person of the opposite sex – that we have to work not to succumb to? Chemistry, biology, emotions, they all work against monogomy. Yes, we can say that monogomy is a choice. And it most certainly IS. Many get married and stay monogamous until the day they die. But I’ve seen the most dedicated spouses say they still struggle with it. 

At any rate, what I’m saying is, I can forgive sins of the flesh easier than sins of the heart. I guess I’d rather find out at the end of my life that I’ve lived a lie rather than have it happen at 38, make me question the last 11 years and live the next 50 hurting from it.


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## TX-SC (Aug 25, 2015)

I would want to know if my spouse has cheated. Whether it was physical or emotional, 30 years ago or a month ago. I like having control of my own life. Her keeping this information away from me keeps me from being able to make my own decisions in regard to whether to stay in the relationship or not. 

Cheating is the ultimate betrayal and I would want to know what happened and why. 

The simple truth is that once a spouse cheats, they render the marriage vows useless moving forward. I would need her and I to renew those vows before moving forward, either through divorce and remarry, or through a renewal ceremony. Otherwise, the marriage is a sham, no matter how much she may change.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

If my spouse was currently cheating, or had been cheating in the recent past, I'd want to know in order to take appropriate action. If it is years later, they had only had a short affair, have reformed and are being a great spouse ever since, I would not want to know if our marriage is now good. It would only cause needless pain and unproductive doubt for years to come. Sometimes, ignorance truly is bliss, and in this specific scenario I'd prefer ignorance. For me, things that happened long before the marriage are seldom important, and things that happened long ago in the marriage are sometimes best left alone too, IMO.


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## TX-SC (Aug 25, 2015)

Married but Happy said:


> If my spouse was currently cheating, or had been cheating in the recent past, I'd want to know in order to take appropriate action. If it is years later, they had only had a short affair, have reformed and are being a great spouse ever since, I would not want to know if our marriage is now good. It would only cause needless pain and unproductive doubt for years to come. Sometimes, ignorance truly is bliss, and in this specific scenario I'd prefer ignorance. For me, things that happened long before the marriage are seldom important, and things that happened long ago in the marriage are sometimes best left alone too, IMO.


You wouldn't want to know your spouse is capable of keeping such a betrayal from you for years? It takes a special type of person to lie for that long.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Tatsuhiko said:


> Other than those examples, anyone who advocates deception is a PIG in my book. Bottom line, all of us would WANT to know the truth about our spouse's malfeasance, therefore we should extend the same courtesy to others.


Not all of us would want to know. I told my wife flat out: if you ever cheat, do not tell me. Take it to your grave. The guilt you feel is the price for doing the crime. Don't try to offload your bad feelings onto me. If you want a divorce, file for divorce and tell me we grew apart. If you want to stay married, fine, but do both of us a favor and keep it to yourself. You don't really want me spending the rest of my life trying to figure out ways to get even, do you?

Many of you want to know so you can divorce the cheater and move on to someone more trustworthy. I know I would not leave so I would rather not know.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

TX-SC said:


> You wouldn't want to know your spouse is capable of keeping such a betrayal from you for years? It takes a special type of person to lie for that long.


No, I would NOT want to know. We have discussed such situations early in our relationship, so we know each other's preferences about such things. Often, we feel, it can be harder to STFU and fix yourself on your own, than dump your crap on your spouse as well, and make them suffer with you.


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## KJ_Simmons (Jan 12, 2016)

I see alot of fear in these responses. It's akin to someone avoiding an annual breast exam or prostate check in the event it may reveal a cancer. You can keep your head in the sand or step up to the fear and treat the cancer. And make no mistake, infidelity is a cancer to a relationship.


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## JohnA (Jun 24, 2015)

Responses such as contained in this article shame "progressives". What is this guy's background?


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## threelittlestars (Feb 18, 2016)

I emailed Ken Gallinger (the advisor) 

And he replied! haha. 

Please! someone ELSE enlighten the fool!


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## TX-SC (Aug 25, 2015)

Married but Happy said:


> No, I would NOT want to know. We have discussed such situations early in our relationship, so we know each other's preferences about such things. Often, we feel, it can be harder to STFU and fix yourself on your own, than dump your crap on your spouse as well, and make them suffer with you.


This is akin to saying, "As long as it doesn't bother you, go ahead and cheat. Just don't tell ME about it."


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## drifter777 (Nov 25, 2013)

Daisy Etta said:


> "SO BE IT"?????!!!!! Oh, I guess it's ok if the WS gets sexually satisfied with some other THING and potentially brings a deadly disease home to the loyal partner. So nice for the WS to "decide to live a lie". WHEN DOES THE BS GET TO DECIDE? Oh that's right, the loyal spouse doesn't count. It's all about the WS.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes - I get it. Most people don't agree with me so I understand your indignant reaction. But, here's the thing: I believe I'm right so, for me, I am right. I won't waste either of our time trying to defend my position nor attack yours. 

As far as my wish that I never knew about her cheating the fact that it happened is meaningless to me. It's like the old "if a tree falls in the forest..." argument. Of course it happened but it wouldn't affect me in any way if I didn't know it happened. So it's really not a debate - it's an opinion based on my experience.


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## threelittlestars (Feb 18, 2016)

I did a little research on Ken Gallinger, seems he rocked the socio-ethics boat three years ago about a transgender issue. For an ethics expert, he is a dumb ass. 

He has no place to advise anyone on infidelity. 


https://lexiecannes.com/2014/01/09/...der-story-i-dont-try-to-substantiate-stories/

As to his back story, Gallinger, is a freelancer who lives in the Parry Sound area, was a minister of the United Church through mid-2012. He’s been writing the Star’s Ethically Speaking column on a regular basis for about ten years. He should be fired.


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## Tatsuhiko (Jun 21, 2016)

The question of whether you'd want to know is kind of like <i>The Matrix</i>. What if one day you woke up and found yourself strapped into a chair with virtual reality goggles on? Your friends and loved ones never really existed--they were only figments of a computer simulation. You'd probably wish you'd never woken up.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

TX-SC said:


> This is akin to saying, "As long as it doesn't bother you, go ahead and cheat. Just don't tell ME about it."


There are many things about how we live, share, and communicate that make cheating a very low possibility, and hiding it would be very difficult. So, if either of us were still that motivated and clever to get away with it, that's simply an acceptable risk. If we don't figure it out at the time, we don't want to be told long after the fact, given the other conditions I stipulated. You choose how you want to live and conduct your marriage, and we've thoroughly discussed and chosen ours - it works for us.


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## Daisy Etta (Aug 13, 2014)

It blows my mind that some of you think you wouldn't want to know. I can tell that many of the people saying this have never actually been betrayed. They have had theoretical discussions with their spouse. Believe me, you may think you can imagine what it'd be like, but when it actually happens to you it is NOTHING like you thought.

If you don't know something like this happened, then you don't know your spouse at all. So you are married to a complete stranger -- and a selfish one, too. And if for no other reason, surely you would want to know how s/he put you in the line of fire for a deadly STD? Maybe had a kid somewhere outside your relationship (or had someone else's kid within your marriage)? *How* can you tell yourself that 'it doesn't affect you if you don't know'?

Those of you who say you'd be ok if it "happened then stopped", you really must not have read many stories here. If cheaters aren't exposed, they almost never stop. It's so easy for them to keep saying, each day, "nobody knows, so I'm not hurting anyone", and then hey, why stop doing it? Ever? Often even when they are caught, they just keep going, 'underground'. The overwhelming evidence of everyone on CWI will show you that a cheater "stopping and redidicating himself to the marriage" will NEVER HAPPEN as long as the loyal spouse is in the dark.


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## Daisy Etta (Aug 13, 2014)

TX-SC said:


> > No, I would NOT want to know. We have discussed such situations early in our relationship, so we know each other's preferences about such things. Often, we feel, it can be harder to STFU and fix yourself on your own, than dump your crap on your spouse as well, and make them suffer with you
> 
> 
> .This is akin to saying, "As long as it doesn't bother you, go ahead and cheat. Just don't tell ME about it."


Exactly!!! By setting out 'rules' which tell your spouse to keep cheating from you, you have basically given your spouse *permission* to cheat at will, as long as they are discreet. (and all cheaters try to be discreet, so that's an easy one for them). 

Let me reiterate: you may think you have a perfect spouse and perfect marriage, so that will never come up. Check around this board. Most of the betrayed spouses thought that as well. They were married to their best friends, they talked about everything, they were in love. Until one day, it turned out to be not the way they thought it was. And then nothing was what they'd prepared for in life.


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## Daisy Etta (Aug 13, 2014)

threelittlestars said:


> I emailed Ken Gallinger (the advisor)
> And he replied! haha.
> Please! someone ELSE enlighten the fool!


Here's how he answered _me_: <<Thanks for this. I take your points, but there is no way, ethical or otherwise, that this woman is responsible for the welfare of the other woman's husband. Best wishes, Ken Gallinger>>

I sent him another email. I said, "ethically, isn't this woman (and aren't we all) responsible to act when we see someone getting hurt? If you knew that a person's roof was going to collapse and perhaps cause their demise, would you say "I'm not responsible for their welfare"? Or would you call out to the person to allow them to get out of the house? The other woman's husband is at risk of his life being destroyed, perhaps literally. Naturally anyone aware of this should warn him."

I guess Ken Gallinger would drive past a car wreck and not stop to help, either. After all, there is no way he is responsible for the welfare of any other human being.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Daisy Etta said:


> Exactly!!! By setting out 'rules' which tell your spouse to keep cheating from you, you have basically given your spouse *permission* to cheat at will, as long as they are discreet. (and all cheaters try to be discreet, so that's an easy one for them).
> 
> Let me reiterate: you may think you have a perfect spouse and perfect marriage, so that will never come up. Check around this board. Most of the betrayed spouses thought that as well. They were married to their best friends, they talked about everything, they were in love. Until one day, it turned out to be not the way they thought it was. And then nothing was what they'd prepared for in life.


<shrug> If things turn out differently than expected, I'll be okay and move on. If she meets someone better for her than me, I'll wish her well and move on. We firmly believe in staying together and loving each other because _we want to and choose to_ - if that ever changes, we'll talk about it and split up if we can't "fix" it. Marriage for us is a day-by-day choice, not a life-long promise; while our hope and intention is to stay together the rest of our lives, we both know that could change tomorrow. Because there is no guarantee, no complacency, we have to keep things good between us right now, in the present. We feel that no one can honestly promise to love another forever - so we don't. If one of us made the choice to move on, the other would be hurt for a while, but we're both strong enough to move on from it. We don't expect forever - only for as long as it works. So, we work to keep it working because so far, every day, we've woken up and wanted to be where we are. If there's a lapse, we fix it - sometimes we need each other's help, sometimes we don't. If it's fixed and the other can't tell that there was a problem, then effectively there is no problem - things are back to normal. That's good enough for us.


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## TX-SC (Aug 25, 2015)

Daisy Etta said:


> Exactly!!! By setting out 'rules' which tell your spouse to keep cheating from you, you have basically given your spouse *permission* to cheat at will, as long as they are discreet. (and all cheaters try to be discreet, so that's an easy one for them).
> 
> Let me reiterate: you may think you have a perfect spouse and perfect marriage, so that will never come up. Check around this board. Most of the betrayed spouses thought that as well. They were married to their best friends, they talked about everything, they were in love. Until one day, it turned out to be not the way they thought it was. And then nothing was what they'd prepared for in life.


I think many cheaters tend to compartmentalize their two lives: one as a happily married person, and one who "deserves some fun on the side." These people have a moral compass that is so skewed that you simply can't give them a free pass like that. They need to know that cheating can and probably will end your marriage. Whether I find out today or in ten years, it will hurt and it will cause damage. 

From reading here and at SI (especially the Wayward Side), it's obvious that some cheaters simply don't think they are doing anything wrong. The whole "What he/she doesn't know won't hurt him/her!" is so far off base! So, I don't have a right to know my wife is giving herself emotionally or physically to someone else? How does this coincide with the vows we made? How would I be in a truthful marriage in that case? 

I certainly understand that people have to form their own marriage rules. No problem and more power to everyone here. It's just hard for me to understand how people would want to be left in the dark about that?


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## katies (May 19, 2015)

Holdingontoit;17040114 You don't really want me spending the rest of my life trying to figure out ways to get even said:


> Because we all know "getting even" is a recipe for success in a marriage.


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## katies (May 19, 2015)

Daisy Etta said:


> Here's how he answered _me_: <<Thanks for this. I take your points, but there is no way, ethical or otherwise, that this woman is responsible for the welfare of the other woman's husband. Best wishes, Ken Gallinger>>
> 
> I sent him another email. I said, "ethically, isn't this woman (and aren't we all) responsible to act when we see someone getting hurt? If you knew that a person's roof was going to collapse and perhaps cause their demise, would you say "I'm not responsible for their welfare"? Or would you call out to the person to allow them to get out of the house? The other woman's husband is at risk of his life being destroyed, perhaps literally. Naturally anyone aware of this should warn him."
> 
> I guess Ken Gallinger would drive past a car wreck and not stop to help, either. After all, there is no way he is responsible for the welfare of any other human being.


What. A. Fool.


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## BobSimmons (Mar 2, 2013)

Don't pay it two minds, most of the "scenarios" are fake. 

You'll find most paper advice advocate not telling simply because if they did and a reader followed that advice and got shot/hurt, that's publicity they don't need, plus they could get dragged into court.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

Daisy Etta said:


> Here's how he answered _me_: <<Thanks for this. I take your points, but there is no way, ethical or otherwise, that this woman is responsible for the welfare of the other woman's husband. Best wishes, Ken Gallinger>>
> 
> I sent him another email. I said, "ethically, isn't this woman (and aren't we all) responsible to act when we see someone getting hurt? If you knew that a person's roof was going to collapse and perhaps cause their demise, would you say "I'm not responsible for their welfare"? Or would you call out to the person to allow them to get out of the house? The other woman's husband is at risk of his life being destroyed, perhaps literally. Naturally anyone aware of this should warn him."
> 
> I guess Ken Gallinger would drive past a car wreck and not stop to help, either. After all, there is no way he is responsible for the welfare of any other human being.


I've never really viewed it this way, until reading your post. I think you're right, that to stay silent if you know without a doubt that a friend or whoever is cheating on their spouse, would be equal to the examples you give above.


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## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

Daisy Etta said:


> I just saw this advice column and it made me so angry, I have signed in here to show it to my fellow betrayed. I am also going to write the columnist; maybe some of you should tell him, too.
> 
> He gets a letter asking if the one BS should tell the other BS that there's an affair, and he says "absolutely not". OMFG I hate this answer!!! As a betrayed spouse, I would have welcomed information from ANY source. Hell, if the OW herself would have given me creditable information I would have been glad to get it. I don't care if the motivation is concern, revenge, or sadism, as long as I get the information.
> 
> ...


My suspicion is that there are a lot more folks living with a spouse who knows of their cheating and yet says nothing. Take the older guy with excessive ED who knows that his wife "stays out late" once a month or so. But she loves her husband, is very kind to him, knows he knows and loves him for it. She's not looking to leave him. In fact she's very happy that he's not tried to force her into living in a sexless marriage.


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## Daisy Etta (Aug 13, 2014)

Sidney, that scenario makes a great story for a movie, but I have my doubts of it happening in a real life couple. Unless you count, "I heard of someone who knows of someone who said they were doing that...". Besides, that is most definitely not the scenario at hand, since the WW's AP is married. If the goal was to go get some to, ha ha, 'save the marriage', I'd hope they'd pick a prick with no wife. Even pretending that this happened, it's still _no_ justification for not speaking to the BH. So what if he already knows, then you've changed nothing for him, no big deal. 

All I can say to MarriedbutHappy is, many people here on CWI had similar conversations. "If you want another, just let me know and we'll split amicably". The problem is the "let me know" part is usually, oops, forgotten. Because then the cheater would have to face their behavior. They're not looking to "move on", they're looking to get two for the price of one. They still "choose to stay together" while having sex in two beds. You just aren't privy to that information. So you don't *GET* the chance to "wish her well and move on", or "talk about it and fix things". Also: "keeping things good between us" is not enough to guarantee faithfulness. There are plenty of examples _here_ of happy marriages where someone cheated anyway. Some do cheat because of issues, but many cheat because, hey, it was extra fun, easy, and convenient. I think you'll change your mind about it being no big deal if it ever happens to you. Pray it never does. Meanwhile, your opinion on how a betrayal scenario could play out is purely hypothetical; and if you currently imagine that you wouldn't want information, you might think differently in the event.


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## Daisy Etta (Aug 13, 2014)

BobSimmons said:


> Don't pay it two minds, most of the "scenarios" are fake.
> 
> You'll find most paper advice advocate not telling simply because if they did and a reader followed that advice and got shot/hurt, that's publicity they don't need, plus they could get dragged into court.


You are probably right. But if the betrayed husband got HIV or found he'd raised a baby without his DNA, while someone who could have warned him was advised to stay silent, that should equally be grounds for going to court. Never mind the mental anguish of finding out years later, when somebody could have told him at the time. Whatever the reason it was given, it is still bad advice to not speak up if you know of something harmful to another person.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Daisy Etta said:


> Sidney, that scenario makes a great story for a movie, but *I have my doubts of it happening in a real life couple*. Unless you count, "I heard of someone who knows of someone who said they were doing that...". Besides, that is most definitely not the scenario at hand, since the WW's AP is married. If the goal was to go get some to, ha ha, 'save the marriage', I'd hope they'd pick a prick with no wife. Even pretending that this happened, it's still _no_ justification for not speaking to the BH. So what if he already knows, then you've changed nothing for him, no big deal.
> 
> All I can say to MarriedbutHappy is, many people here on CWI had similar conversations. "If you want another, just let me know and we'll split amicably". *The problem is the "let me know" part is usually, oops, forgotten.* Because then the cheater would have to face their behavior. They're not looking to "move on", they're looking to get two for the price of one. They still "choose to stay together" while having sex in two beds. You just aren't privy to that information. So you don't *GET* the chance to "wish her well and move on", or "talk about it and fix things". Also: "keeping things good between us" is not enough to guarantee faithfulness. There are plenty of examples _here_ of happy marriages where someone cheated anyway. Some do cheat because of issues, but many cheat because, hey, it was extra fun, easy, and convenient. I think you'll change your mind about it being no big deal if it ever happens to you. Pray it never does. Meanwhile, your opinion on how a betrayal scenario could play out is purely hypothetical; and if you currently imagine that you wouldn't want information, you might think differently in the event.


Re: the first bolded bit, I directly and personally know of a few such couples, and they have an explicit agreement to this effect. This is known as a consensually open relationship; they do exist, and many work (about as well as monogamy, anyway).

Re: the second bolded bit, I can only say that IF I am not aware of it and I am not discontented with the relationship, it has no material effect on my life. If I find out while this is going on or soon after, I would probably react like anyone else here. If a lot of time has gone by, I'd rather not know - if I am now and have been satisfied with the relationship in the time since such an event, then it has no material impact on my life. Finding out _might_ create unnecessary pain over an issue that has been resolved by the WS.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

katies said:


> Because we all know "getting even" is a recipe for success in a marriage.


If my spouse cheated and told me, by definition we do not have a successful marriage. At that point, having tried to transfer her guilt onto me by telling me, why should my wife expect that my goal is to rebuild a successful marriage with her? Maybe I prefer to divorce and find someone else. Maybe I prefer to stay married to her but spend the rest of my life repaying her for telling me. Maybe my goal is not to bring happiness to myself but misery to her. 

Which goal do you think is most likely to deter her from choosing to have an A? If my wife expects I will try to maximize my own happiness by either fixing our marriage or divorcing her, she may feel the price of her A is something she is willing to pay. If she understands the result of her cheating is that I will stay married to her but devote myself to thwarting her happiness, she might decide either not to cheat or not to tell me. Or to divorce me ahead of time to save herself the drama. I see all of those outcomes as better than her thinking that if she cheats, it is OK to tell me.

You might think "who the heck wants to be married to someone who would rather spend their life thwarting happiness than pursuing it?" I am sure my wife asks herself that question all the time. :surprise::laugh:


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## Chris Taylor (Jul 22, 2010)

This thread gives me flashbacks of the "walmart co-worker having affair with other worker" thread.


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## drifter777 (Nov 25, 2013)

Daisy Etta said:


> It blows my mind that some of you think you wouldn't want to know. I can tell that many of the people saying this have never actually been betrayed. They have had theoretical discussions with their spouse. Believe me, you may think you can imagine what it'd be like, but when it actually happens to you it is NOTHING like you thought.
> 
> If you don't know something like this happened, then you don't know your spouse at all. So you are married to a complete stranger -- and a selfish one, too. And if for no other reason, surely you would want to know how s/he put you in the line of fire for a deadly STD? Maybe had a kid somewhere outside your relationship (or had someone else's kid within your marriage)? *How* can you tell yourself that 'it doesn't affect you if you don't know'?
> 
> ...


Yes, I get it. You want to know and think everyone should want to know. I don't and would choose not to know IF I could make the choice.


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## threelittlestars (Feb 18, 2016)

drifter777 said:


> Yes, I get it. You want to know and think everyone should want to know. I don't and would choose not to know IF I could make the choice.



But...your perspective is that of an Ostrich burying their head in the sand.... I think (personal opinion) so (no personal attack) I think that way is the way of a coward. 

But I guess some people don't think they are strong enough. Don't want to test their mettle


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

threelittlestars said:


> But I guess some people don't think they are strong enough. Don't want to test their mettle


Yes, that is it. Well, except that some of us KNOW we are not strong enough. If you know you are weak, bad idea to anchor yourself to a torque wrench.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

threelittlestars said:


> But...your perspective is that of an Ostrich burying their head in the sand.... I think (personal opinion) so (no personal attack) I think that way is the way of a coward.
> 
> But I guess some people don't think they are strong enough. Don't want to test their mettle


Suppose it's years later. You've had a great relationship (as far as you know), are happy, and for years there has been no more infidelity, your spouse has been wonderful to you. What is the benefit of learning of past infidelity at that point? It's mostly going to cause pain and questioning, and possibly destroy the good relationship that now exists. It's not that I'm not strong enough to handle it, just that I don't see any useful purpose in going through all that long after the fact. At the time it's happening, positive action can be taken. Long after, not so much.

Besides, not knowing is pretty much the norm. Over 80% of affairs are never discovered or revealed, if the statistics are correct. Many of those marriages continue and are at least reasonably successful. Is there a benefit to blowing it up at that point, other than for some abstract, ideological point? You may still want to know; I hope you never are cheated on, but if so, I hope you find out years later since that's your desire. I'll pass, thanks anyway.


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## threelittlestars (Feb 18, 2016)

Im in an infidelity forum. I have been cheated on, and I sure as hell wanted to know. Yes, i have suffered. But ignorance is its own purgatory. Its shattering when you find out the hidden truth. More so than being told or honesty. Especially shattering to find out that you lived in ignorance.... i rather know my spouse. I rather know my sexual health, this is why we run tests so the cancer does not kill us before we can prevent death. 

Infidelity is a cancer.... You can't bury your head in the sand. If you do the whole relationship is still doomed. Just a different level. 

I know a woman who came across evidence of a hidden romance of her deceased husband. The (love of her life) 45 year marriage. He took the affair to his grave, but unfortunately he forgot about some damning evidence. She tried to commit suicide, but her daughter found her in time. She now hates the man to her very core. She often said that she hates that family on his side, and friends never told her. She is so bitter now, and its because NO ONE INFORMED HER THAT HER LIFE WAS A LIE. 

Whos fault? Course the leading person at fault is the dead WH, but everyone else is too. Ethics. This is an ethical debate. If you want to remain in the dark, you are mentally participating in an unethical perspective. 

Sometimes the truth hurts and often it damages relationships... But more often LIES KILL. Physically or metaphorically.


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## drifter777 (Nov 25, 2013)

threelittlestars said:


> But...your perspective is that of an Ostrich burying their head in the sand.... I think (personal opinion) so (no personal attack) I think that way is the way of a coward.
> 
> But I guess some people don't think they are strong enough. Don't want to test their mettle


You are entitled to your opinion and I am to mine so no offense taken :smile2: We are both just providing data points for readers.


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## drifter777 (Nov 25, 2013)

threelittlestars said:


> Im in an infidelity forum. I have been cheated on, and I sure as hell wanted to know. Yes, i have suffered. But ignorance is its own purgatory. Its shattering when you find out the hidden truth. More so than being told or honesty. Especially shattering to find out that you lived in ignorance.... i rather know my spouse. I rather know my sexual health, this is why we run tests so the cancer does not kill us before we can prevent death.
> 
> Infidelity is a cancer.... You can't bury your head in the sand. If you do the whole relationship is still doomed. Just a different level.
> 
> ...


Your opinions can't legitimately be challenged but these aren't opinions anymore - you are making false and/or unproven claims. How many spouses cheat, never tell their BS and live a normal marriage & life? Probably a lot. How many marriages end in divorce due to a discovered affair that could have been saved had WS told BS? Probably a lot. The bottom line is that each WS needs to make the decision whether to reveal or not. We post our experiences and opinions on this forum to give any WS struggling with this decision data points to consider. 

Philosophically, there is no right answer to this question. Like most decisions in life we just choose our path and take our chances.


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## threelittlestars (Feb 18, 2016)

drifter777 said:


> Your opinions can't legitimately be challenged but these aren't opinions anymore - you are making false and/or unproven claims. How many spouses cheat, never tell their BS and live a normal marriage & life? Probably a lot. How many marriages end in divorce due to a discovered affair that could have been saved had WS told BS? Probably a lot. The bottom line is that each WS needs to make the decision whether to reveal or not. We post our experiences and opinions on this forum to give any WS struggling with this decision data points to consider.
> 
> Philosophically, there is no right answer to this question. Like most decisions in life we just choose our path and take our chances.



Its a gamble when you lean on the side of dishonesty. Sure it may turn out alright, But the persons silent conscience WS may have it eat at them alive, and actually I don't think they deserve that pain either. Truth sets you free and the truly remorseful spouse can suffer greatly under the lie. And I don't believe a remorseful spouse deserves that kind of existence.

To keep secrets carry many factors that the reach of effects can be minor or to the point of catastrophe. 

Im conservative in my leanings on ethics, I try to weigh many arguments and Still to lie about something to grave as infidelity is just a bridge too far ethically for my mind. My observation (although not fact across all statistics) is that Lies hurt both sides, Honesty can hurt both sides. I just think the destruction is greater and more prolonged on the Lies side.


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## threelittlestars (Feb 18, 2016)

I was thinking about it a bit since my last post. I think it would have to be exposed from genuine care, and not revenge. I think a lot of BS expose to the OBS to share information (which is usery,) I don't feel this is actually ethical. Some expose to give the other cheater consequences because they are hurting (revenge) which is not ethical ether. 

If the person comes from a REAL place of care concern and support they have the perception to try to be as caring as possible.


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## drifter777 (Nov 25, 2013)

threelittlestars said:


> Its a gamble when you lean on the side of dishonesty. Sure it may turn out alright, But the persons silent conscience WS may have it eat at them alive, and actually I don't think they deserve that pain either. Truth sets you free and the truly remorseful spouse can suffer greatly under the lie. And I don't believe a remorseful spouse deserves that kind of existence.
> 
> To keep secrets carry many factors that the reach of effects can be minor or to the point of catastrophe.
> 
> Im conservative in my leanings on ethics, I try to weigh many arguments and Still to lie about something to grave as infidelity is just a bridge too far ethically for my mind. My observation (although not fact across all statistics) is that Lies hurt both sides, Honesty can hurt both sides. I just think the destruction is greater and more prolonged on the Lies side.


I understand and respect your position on this ugly issue. The vast majority of people that I've met would agree with pretty much all you say. 

For me it's different. I see this as very much like the theoretical opinion that nearly everyone has about what they would do if their spouse cheated on them. The percentage that say "dump them right fk'ing now" is overwhelming. Yet when it happens a person realizes that this "deal-breaker" that they held as Gospel was just something they were using as a threat to keep their partner from cheating and give themself some false comfort to lean on. We all know that however a person thinks they will react is NOT how they end up reacting. 

I look back at my decision to stay as the worst decision I have made in my life. For decades I was filled with self-loathing for not having the strength to end the marriage. Now I am beginning to give myself a break. I look at the situation as if it were happening to one of my sons and I can begin to lighten up on myself. My love for the one son we had at the time was, and still is, the greatest love of my life. Back then I considered the fact that I'd have him on weekends and whenever my WW needed to dump him on me to go out. But visits and sleepovers are different than living with him 7x24x365. Had I left I would have continued to be a great dad and he would have been fine. It was me that would have suffered the most being denied full-time daddy status. All of this I had to consider while being an emotional basket-case and still stunned at what she had done. So now I should look back and hate the 24 year-old kid who decided to stay? Even if it turned out to be a bad decision, should I refuse to give myself the benefit of the doubt that I did the best I could? If it happened to one of my sons today I would give him nothing but support and help comfort and guide him. I would make sure he understood that whether he chose divorce or reconciliation the path was long and painful. I would love him and support him. I had no one I would talk to about this. I didn't trust a soul enough to share this disgusting secret with so I had zero support, zero advice, and zero love. Might that have provided an extra imputes to cling to the wife and family I had & tell myself that I could tough this out? I still regret the decision but I have nearly completely absolved that 24 year-old kid for making it.

So, do I wish I never knew that she cheated? You bet. The thought that I could have avoided the tortured memories, the anger, the overwhelming emotional pain and sadness sounds like paradise to me. It's not a close call for me & it certainly has nothing to do with my sense of what's ethical. And I accept that most people do not and will never agree with me. I certainly don't hold their belief's against them because I know that they have no idea what I - and many other BH's - have been through. 

This is really long but sometimes a back-story provides a context so others can understand why a person believes what they believe.

All of this reminds me of something that the boxer Mike Tyson once said.

"Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth."


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

threelittlestars said:


> Im in an infidelity forum. I have been cheated on, and I sure as hell wanted to know. Yes, i have suffered. But ignorance is its own purgatory. Its shattering when you find out the hidden truth. More so than being told or honesty. Especially shattering to find out that you lived in ignorance.... i rather know my spouse. I rather know my sexual health, this is why we run tests so the cancer does not kill us before we can prevent death.
> 
> Infidelity is a cancer.... You can't bury your head in the sand. If you do the whole relationship is still doomed. Just a different level.
> 
> ...


Equally, one could say that knowledge destroyed her. While she remained ignorant, she was happy. Where is the benefit in finding out, for her? Besides, I don't believe that her life was a lie - part of it was delusion, but we all live in delusion, to some extent. She was living her life authentically, as far as she knew, and was happy. Is it _necessary_ to take that from her? I would bet that you too are living a lie, because I suspect you have beliefs that are false, no matter how dearly you hold them to be true. They may make you happy, and you'd resist and deny the truth if it contradicts this. Everything from religion, to politics, to love is to some (large) degree a delusion. I think survival and happiness are more important than some perceived ideology - and I'm an idealist (but also a pragmatist).

As for ethics, I assert that my position is ethical. I'm not harming anyone at all by wishing to remain in the dark. Surely I have the right to my beliefs and preferences in that case? Now, if I know someone else would want to know if THEY had been cheated on, then I would have no problem with telling them. I'd like the same respect for my choice.


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## katies (May 19, 2015)

Holdingontoit said:


> Which goal do you think is most likely to deter her from choosing to have an A?


Nothing you do can deter her. Her choices reside inside her. So, why not live your life according to your own values, instead of simply responding to others' actions.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

katies said:


> Nothing you do can deter her. Her choices reside inside her. So, why not live your life according to your own values, instead of simply responding to others' actions.


I am. I just have very messed up values.


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