# 10 year drought and sore forehead



## wanttolove (Jan 25, 2012)

I am banging my head against the wall. Ten years. Ten YEARS. We have not had sex for over ten years. Affection dried up before that. 

We have talked about it.

"It takes two" she always says. :iagree:Yes, that is true. However, when it has been so long, why bother to try to start something you know will just be an exercise in futility? Why--freaking--bother? It has been so long, she would have to do a lot just for me to be attracted to her again. My defense mechanisms are on full.

She is 51, blonde, 5'8" tall, 135. My wife is not ugly. But she is not attractive. She does not adore me. Sex when it did happen was an exercise for her, with foreplay always turned away, the lights always off. There is a reason why I can not remember what she looks like naked -- I rarely saw her naked. Why would I want that again?

We have been to counseling. I have been to counseling. She has been to counseling. We have talked about the state of our marriage and know we are at the point of decision, really treading water. She has told me that she does not respect me because she does not agree with me. Why?

1. I have never been able to live up to her conservative Baptist standards. I try -- don't drink, don't watch R rated movies, don't cuss, am a church goer (have always been -- I was once a church youth pastor) etc, etc, etc. 
2. Our standards of discipline with our children, especially our son, do not coincide. She believes in negotiation, not punishment. Any punishment, whether we have agreed on it or not, is usually reversed by her. Our son has resorted to attacking me physically, punching me at times, yet she still backs him up.
3. Even though she knew I only wanted two children, she pushed for more. Why do I know it has been over ten years? Because that is when the D & C happened. And she claimed I didn't support her, not because I wasn't there, but because she felt I was relieved that we were not going to have a third child -- something she shared in counseling after years of sexual inactivity and zero affection.

I am by all outward respects a very kind husband and father, provider. I coached sports for both children, did all the normal father type things. I have been there physically and emotionally.

I do not want to reach out to her any more. I don't think our relationship will ever be intimate again, if it ever was. We share nothing in common. I am an avid bicyclist. She doesn't ride. I play baseball and love baseball. Not only does she hate the game, she has seen me play twice in 22 years of marriage. I play golf with our son. She won't try to play. She focuses all of her energy on our children and her sisters and friends. 

And I need affection. I need to be adored. I want to share life with someone who wants to ride bikes with me, camp, cuddle with me on the couch while watching a good funny movie and not worry that she might be offended, plays golf with me, goes out for a beer with me and our friends, someone who WANTS me and treats me that way.

More and more I am thinking about moving out. It's difficult to do if only for financial reasons. I don't want to leave our children, although our daughter goes to college soon. Our son will be a sophomore in high school this Fall. I have a very good relationship with my wife's family and my father in law, and I do value my relationship with them. Moving out seems like the only answer if I am going to have a shot at starting over, though, and I know it. Moving out will be the step before divorce.. something that really scares me.

And there is that forehead banging thing. Right now I need intimacy so badly that I am going insane. But I can not allow myself to stray, even to a wife who has essentially been unfaithful to me for more than ten years. At times I am OK, but wow is it tough some times!

One dire mistake I made recently, and one that all who read this will want to smack for doing, is that I checked out a dating web site recently. I was stinking lonely. What a mistake. In order to see the women who were listed, I had to create a profile. Now I get an email at five o'clock every day, with new profiles of women who fit what I am looking for not only in looks but in interest. It is creating a false sense that I can find someone and do it easily, but I know it is not that easy. Adding to the confusion is having a friend who is now married to someone he met less than a year after his divorce. He is deliriously happy.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Next time your kid hits you call the police!
Get financials squared away and divorce.


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## Kolors (Sep 27, 2013)

It's not a mistake, you aren't going to get what you need out of your relationship. I hate that "it takes two" nonsense. It takes one to completely shut down sex in a relationship. 

Nothing at all wrong with wanting to be happy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Revamped (Jun 19, 2014)

So there you have it.

Stay or leave.

Which option you choose creates consequences, some good some bad. The weight you put on each will determine your path. To be an honorable, good man means a sacrifice. No one can tell you what that sacrifice will be.

A point of no return.

If you can't be happy where you are

Will you be happy to go to where you want to be?


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## JWTBL (May 28, 2014)

Please, please, please- let your wife know you need to move out and get a grip. Have enough respect for your children and years of marriage to stop feeling sorry for yourself and act on your misery. Do something concrete. You do not "deserve" to go and have an affair behind your families back. Live apart, start working on divorce. It doesn't matter why you are miserable, what matters is you show your family that you're a man and will not lie and cheat on them with another woman. Get a divorce first. You know in your heart your marriage is over, so tell your wife those words. Don't let her find out by discovering you have been cheating behind her back, this is the cowards way out. I speak from experience. My kids will never see their father in the same way again, knowing that he lied and cheated on us.


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## wanttolove (Jan 25, 2012)

I agree with you. I will not cheat and it's one of the reasons why I want to move out, although I want to move out so that I can at least have the chance to explore another relationship. I get that dating while separated can be the same as cheating, but is it really when it's BEEN SO LONG?


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## wanttolove (Jan 25, 2012)

Revamped said:


> Will you be happy to go to where you want to be?


Good question and one that I am constantly thinking about. One thing I do know is that I am not going to be happy relationally if I stay where I am. But can I happy if I simply accept and live the rest of my life without a woman who adores me, who has no affection for me?


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

wanttolove said:


> 1. I have never been able to live up to her conservative Baptist standards. I try -- don't drink, don't watch R rated movies, don't cuss, am a church goer (have always been -- I was once a church youth pastor) etc, etc, etc.


You knew this from the get-go. But you stayed. Now you are in the financial situation where it's difficult to leave. Regardless, it sounds as if you have been miserable for years.

There is always a price to pay - financial or otherwise - to leaving a marriage. Stay and keep your money. Or leave and keep your sanity. 



wanttolove said:


> Adding to the confusion is having a friend who is now married to someone he met less than a year after his divorce. He is deliriously happy.


Oh, please. You are romanticizing someone else's life. When you are miserable, everyone seems happier than you. 

So your buddy got married less than a year after his divorce. Sounds really needy to me. And he's "deliriously" happy? Nope. He's just getting laid all the time. Ask him how "delirious" he is five years from now.

You are miserable. You want out. Take the financial hit, get divorced, and quit dragging your feet. Life is very short and you are wasting the time you have left. Your wife is done. JMO.


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## FizzBomb (Dec 31, 2013)

It sounds like divorce is what you want.

Proceed with that. I don't know how you put up with that marriage and all that resentment for so long a but you have. So divorce, then date. You've waited this long to make a move - you can wait a bit longer surely?

Does your wife know that you have completely detached emotionally from her and that you're looking to end the marriage?

Take down your dating site profile - that's rude and disrespectful. You're still married. Keep your integrity and self respect intact as you exit your marriage.


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## wanttolove (Jan 25, 2012)

Prodigal said:


> Oh, please. You are romanticizing someone else's life. When you are miserable, everyone seems happier than you.
> 
> So your buddy got married less than a year after his divorce. Sounds really needy to me. And he's "deliriously" happy? Nope. He's just getting laid all the time. Ask him how "delirious" he is five years from now.
> 
> Life is very short and you are wasting the time you have left. Your wife is done. JMO.


A lot of truth in what you say. My friend was ready for a change, although his ex was sleeping with several different men and refused to stop doing it, so he had reason. I went with him to court when the divorce was finalized -- and he asked me to take the pictures for his online dating profile on the way home from court! OK, maybe he IS delirious because he is getting laid.. is that so wrong? LOL

Your opinion is correct. :iagree:


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## wanttolove (Jan 25, 2012)

FizzBomb said:


> Does your wife know that you have completely detached emotionally from her and that you're looking to end the marriage?
> 
> Take down your dating site profile - that's rude and disrespectful. You're still married. Keep your integrity and self respect intact as you exit your marriage.


I'm not completely detached. We have a relationship, just not a physical relationship. She does know that I am considering divorce. We have discussed it several times.

I have never activated my profile, so it's not being used.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

wanttolove said:


> I agree with you. I will not cheat and it's one of the reasons why I want to move out, although I want to move out so that I can at least have the chance to explore another relationship. I get that dating while separated can be the same as cheating, but is it really when it's BEEN SO LONG?


It is only cheating if you agree on this. But get a divorce ASAP.

Forget that profile. Get a lawyer. Stop thinking about it and get moving. Life is too short. Do not use threat of divorce to change anything.

Not beating you up but you wnet along with this willingly step by step you gve yourself away. I understand. You are going to have to get yourself back together step by step.


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

wanttolove said:


> She has told me that she does not respect me because she does not agree with me.


Seems unlikely she would respect you more if you started agreeing with her on everything.




> _1. I have never been able to live up to her conservative Baptist standards. I try -- don't drink, don't watch R rated movies, _


And how's that working for you? Actually sounds like you both need to loosen up a bit. A few beers and an R-rated movie sounds like just the thing. Actually, X-rated movies would be better for you both. 



> _2. Our standards of discipline with our children, especially our son, do not coincide. She believes in negotiation, not punishment. Any punishment, whether we have agreed on it or not, is usually reversed by her. Our son has resorted to attacking me physically, punching me at times, yet she still backs him up._


A lot of people in your situation stay with their partner for the sake of the children. But once again, how's that working out for you? Your parenting styles are in conflict and your wife is undermining your authority. Sounds like you are doing more harm than good by staying together.

Make an honest list of all the "Pros" and "Cons" of you two staying together. I have a feeling one column will be a lot longer than the other.


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## wanttolove (Jan 25, 2012)

Theseus said:


> Actually sounds like you both need to loosen up a bit. A few beers and an R-rated movie sounds like just the thing.


:rofl:
That will never happen with my wife. One thing I started doing about a year ago, however, is go out and do my own thing -- have a beer or two, spend time with friends at a bar (no, not cruising chicks, but some of those friends are women), take a cycling trip out of town on my own, visit my brothers and parents without her. It was actually something my dad suggest I do. And I tell her what I am doing, don't hide it.


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## murphy5 (May 1, 2014)

not very compatible! Lucky for you its only two kids. 

if she is so religious, I suppose an open marriage will be out of the question.

It sounds like she has zero interest in sex with you, being with you, and sharing any fun things with you.

So either choose to be celibate with her, and have her as a long term room mate, or get the heck out of dodge.

If you choose the later, you have to talk to her about the seriousness of her sexual rejection, and that you are about to leave for good. If she does nothing to improve, leave. Maybe a trial separation, maybe even one where you both agree to allow dating others? 

But by all means do it in the open.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

wanttolove,
The common denominator here is you. Read nmmng (no more mr nice guy).


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

wanttolove said:


> I am banging my head against the wall. Ten years. Ten YEARS. We have not had sex for over ten years. Affection dried up before that.
> 
> We have talked about it.
> 
> "It takes two" she always says. :iagree:Yes, that is true.


It is completely pointless and counterproductive to whine about the lack of sex with a woman; unless of course you're trying to seduce a woman you're not married to, in which case it can be an effective strategy. When you discuss it with your wife it breeds contempt and disrespect.




wanttolove said:


> However, when it has been so long, why bother to try to start something you know will just be an exercise in futility? Why--freaking--bother? It has been so long, she would have to do a lot just for me to be attracted to her again. My defense mechanisms are on full.
> 
> She is 51, blonde, 5'8" tall, 135. My wife is not ugly. But she is not attractive. She does not adore me. Sex when it did happen was an exercise for her, with foreplay always turned away, the lights always off. There is a reason why I can not remember what she looks like naked -- I rarely saw her naked. Why would I want that again?


Friend, either she is not attracted to you or she is not attracted to men in general. 

Which leads to the question, How often do women come up and hit on you; this could be anywhere, work, store, even church (if its a big one)? 3X a week? Everyday?

What is your waist size and what's your best in the overhead press?



wanttolove said:


> We have been to counseling. I have been to counseling. She has been to counseling.


Counseling is a waste of time, unless the counselor knows what he's talking about.



wanttolove said:


> We have talked about the state of our marriage and know we are at the point of decision, really treading water.


Does she know you're getting ready to give her the boot? She's not attracted to you, so she doesn't believe any other woman could be, either.



wanttolove said:


> She has told me that she does not respect me because she does not agree with me. Why?


More likely you don't project mastery of her. That seems pretty clear. You gave her the reins on this relationship a long time ago and that is not attractive.



wanttolove said:


> 1. I have never been able to live up to her conservative Baptist standards. I try -- don't drink, don't watch R rated movies, don't cuss, am a church goer (have always been -- I was once a church youth pastor) etc, etc, etc.


You keep her "Baptist Standards" (I know all about 'em) but do you believe them? If you keep them just to keep the peace and you don't believe them and she knows it, she won't respect you. Same for going to church. If you're an ex-Christian, she won't respect you, even though she is commanded to do so in scripture.



wanttolove said:


> 2. Our standards of discipline with our children, especially our son, do not coincide. She believes in negotiation, not punishment. Any punishment, whether we have agreed on it or not, is usually reversed by her. Our son has resorted to attacking me physically, punching me at times, yet she still backs him up.


She's the leader of the house, too. No, she doesn't respect you. Is this an age related drop in testosterone you're dealing with or have you always been this way?



wanttolove said:


> 3. Even though she knew I only wanted two children, she pushed for more. Why do I know it has been over ten years? Because that is when the D & C happened. And she claimed I didn't support her, not because I wasn't there, but because she felt I was relieved that we were not going to have a third child -- something she shared in counseling after years of sexual inactivity and zero affection.


So what you're saying is that neither one of you are real keepers?



wanttolove said:


> I am by all outward respects a very kind husband and father, provider. I coached sports for both children, did all the normal father type things. I have been there physically and emotionally.


It's not really coming across in your post. 



wanttolove said:


> I do not want to reach out to her any more. I don't think our relationship will ever be intimate again, if it ever was. We share nothing in common. I am an avid bicyclist. She doesn't ride. I play baseball and love baseball. Not only does she hate the game, she has seen me play twice in 22 years of marriage. I play golf with our son. She won't try to play. She focuses all of her energy on our children and her sisters and friends.


Sounds like you're looking for a lesbian sports buddy instead of a sex partner. 



wanttolove said:


> And I need affection. I need to be adored. I want to share life with someone who wants to ride bikes with me, camp, cuddle with me on the couch while watching a good funny movie and not worry that she might be offended, plays golf with me, goes out for a beer with me and our friends, someone who WANTS me and treats me that way.


Dude, get your testosterone checked. Pronto. Were you in an accident on your bike and got your balls ripped off?



wanttolove said:


> More and more I am thinking about moving out. It's difficult to do if only for financial reasons. I don't want to leave our children, although our daughter goes to college soon. Our son will be a sophomore in high school this Fall. I have a very good relationship with my wife's family and my father in law, and I do value my relationship with them. Moving out seems like the only answer if I am going to have a shot at starting over, though, and I know it. Moving out will be the step before divorce.. something that really scares me.
> 
> And there is that forehead banging thing. Right now I need intimacy so badly that I am going insane. But I can not allow myself to stray, even to a wife who has essentially been unfaithful to me for more than ten years. At times I am OK, but wow is it tough some times!
> 
> One dire mistake I made recently, and one that all who read this will want to smack for doing, is that I checked out a dating web site recently. I was stinking lonely. What a mistake. In order to see the women who were listed, I had to create a profile. Now I get an email at five o'clock every day, with new profiles of women who fit what I am looking for not only in looks but in interest. It is creating a false sense that I can find someone and do it easily, but I know it is not that easy. Adding to the confusion is having a friend who is now married to someone he met less than a year after his divorce. He is deliriously happy.


You can't measure your attractiveness by some online dating thing. What happens in real life? If you're an attractive guy, they'll walk up to you and let you know about it. If that's not happening, you're deluding yourself on your SMV.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

I think the first thing you should do is shut down the web site. First it's distracting, deceptive and playing with fire. You will eventually feel bad about yourself. If your wife finds out, your life will be hell not just purgatory. 

Besides you have already confirmed that you will not have a problem meeting women and you will eventually meet a woman who is an excellent match for you.

Clear your head and seriously explore your options. Your wife does not respect you. Do you think there is anything that you have not tried that would regain her respect and love? If not, whats the next step?


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

Chicken ****s sign up for dating sites while married.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

You're brutal Mac. Just plain bruuutaaal.


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## wanttolove (Jan 25, 2012)

murphy5 said:


> ...you have to talk to her about the seriousness of her sexual rejection, and that you are about to leave for good.... But by all means do it in the open.


:allhail:

Seems like something I should have already thought about, but I haven't. That includes several months of counseling. She does indeed need to understand the seriousness of the rejection. I know I will hear it from her, too, but we need to say it.


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## murphy5 (May 1, 2014)

what I think you need to do is go out, get a nice bottle of Makers 46 bourbon, put a few rocks in the glass, and sip for a while. Things will start to make sense around the third glassful.


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## wanttolove (Jan 25, 2012)

clipclop2 said:


> Chicken ****s sign up for dating sites while married.


They are. What are you saying?


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## wanttolove (Jan 25, 2012)

Catherine602 said:


> Clear your head and seriously explore your options. Your wife does not respect you. Do you think there is anything that you have not tried that would regain her respect and love? If not, whats the next step?


I don't honestly think there is anything that can be done to regain anything. I do know the next step. It's just a matter of when it can be done.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

clipclop2 said:


> Chicken ****s sign up for dating sites while married.





wanttolove said:


> They are. What are you saying?


She's saying if you're looking to cheat then don't bother looking for justification here. It's never right.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Cycling and baseball doesn't make a woman a lesbian.

Ffs. Get a grip, Mach 

OP, after 10 years of this, is there anything to save? Probably not.


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

clipclop2 said:


> Chicken ****s sign up for dating sites while married.



Well, he said he didn't activate his profile, so he didn't really sign up to anything.

Anyway, *10 years* of celibacy will cause anyone to do crazy things. so I think you can cut the OP a bit of slack here - their marriage is dead in all but name only.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Yea, 10 years is crazy long.

After a month I'd start to ask what's up. After 5 months of talking and still no sex I'd be suspicious of cheating. After a year with no real answer as to why and no intimacy, I'd be gone.

Come on, OP...is religion holding you back?

ETA: Probably not a year. Maybe squeeze all that into 6 months.


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## FizzBomb (Dec 31, 2013)

wanttolove said:


> I'm not completely detached. We have a relationship, just not a physical relationship.
> *Really? The way you describe it in your opening post it's hard to believe.* :scratchhead:
> 
> I have never activated my profile, so it's not being used.
> ...


So has divorce been thrown around and discussed, or have you had a legit sit down lay it on the line 'I want out' talk?


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## Abc123wife (Sep 18, 2013)

She doesn't respect or believe your threats of leaving. You posted about this same issue well over 2 years ago and said you were on the verge of leaving then. But you are still there! So I am sure your wife believes you will never have the courage to leave. Why would she change? She doesn't have to because it appears that you are not going to ever do anything about it.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

Y'know, I'm trying to figure out why you are so afraid of just confronting this head-on and telling her what you need.

There are children involved. There are finances involved.

But TEN YEARS with no sex? C'mon ... Let's get real here. I've NEVER gone ten years w/o sex. I've had my share of dry spells, but this is crazy.

And the fact you have gone along with it means you have to look at why you really allowed this.

And I'm not buying it's because of the finances or the kids.

You are ready to climb the walls. For cryin' out loud ... tell her you are leaving if she doesn't rediscover her libido.


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## Sunburn (Jul 9, 2012)

These situations that involve children are always difficult. What's worse........... divorce and being without them or staying together and teaching them a dysfunctional norm?


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Wait. Is she ok without sex? Or is she getting it from somewhere else?

I mean, 10 YEARS?? no sex? People have needs.


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

that_girl said:


> Wait. Is she ok without sex? Or is she getting it from somewhere else?
> 
> I mean, 10 YEARS?? no sex? People have needs.


I am convinced that over time in a sexless marriage, many people who have the higher sex drive eventually lose their sex drive to match their spouse. I know for me, it was more difficult early on than it is now ... so I don't know that ten years is all that much harder than 2 years in terms of 'climbing the walls' but I do know that it has to be emotionally devastating as it has been for me. I also know that if he does leave her and finds someone who wants to have sex with him, he'll be kicking himself for what he put himself through.

My wife has said she could go the rest of her life without sex. I believe her. I also believe she doesn't care how I feel about that.


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## FormerSelf (Apr 21, 2013)

I'm interested to know what were the results of the copious amount of counseling...what did the counselor suggest? 

Was the topic of sex broached in your sessions? 

Was there some prescription involved that you both agreed to endeavor? 

Did you follow through with your end? Did your wife follow through with her end?

I wondering because you would think after all of the counseling there would have been reached some degree of consensus of a direction...especially if it is under terms of trying to salvage the marriage. So it's either you have a s*** counselor or one or both of you broke your promise...or slacked off.

Was the sex ever good? If so, what changed?


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## wanttolove (Jan 25, 2012)

that_girl said:


> Yea, 10 years is crazy long.
> 
> After a month I'd start to ask what's up. After 5 months of talking and still no sex I'd be suspicious of cheating. After a year with no real answer as to why and no intimacy, I'd be gone.
> 
> ...


10 years is crazy long. You do touch the issue that is part of the reason for staying -- my faith. My counselor made the point last year that many Christians hold out because they have a hope for a better life after this life, heaven. Couple that with most Christian churches teaching that divorce is not an option for believers and you have a lot of Christian marriages that probably should not be marriages. Common advice I get is 'pray about it' and God will make it better. Maybe. Can't rule that out. But I am not sure that God is going to work that way in my marriage.


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## wanttolove (Jan 25, 2012)

Abc123wife said:


> She doesn't respect or believe your threats of leaving. You posted about this same issue well over 2 years ago and said you were on the verge of leaving then. But you are still there! So I am sure your wife believes you will never have the courage to leave. Why would she change? She doesn't have to because it appears that you are not going to ever do anything about it.


I have been thinking about leaving for quite a while. This is not an easy decision for me, one I am taking serious, especially since I know the impact it is going to have on the lives of my family and children. Two years ago I was not checking out housing, thinking about romantic options should I leave, and had not set a time table. I do have a time table now, one my counselor helped me set.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

wanttolove said:


> 10 years is crazy long. You do touch the issue that is part of the reason for staying -- my faith. My counselor made the point last year that many Christians hold out because they have a hope for a better life after this life, heaven. Couple that with most *Christian churches teaching that divorce is not an option for believers *and you have a lot of Christian marriages that probably should not be marriages. Common advice I get is 'pray about it' and God will make it better. Maybe. Can't rule that out. But I am not sure that God is going to work that way in my marriage.


Funny what do they say about cheating?? Love it when religious types pick and choose the convents to adhere to


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## wanttolove (Jan 25, 2012)

Prodigal said:


> And the fact you have gone along with it means you have to look at why you really allowed this.
> 
> And I'm not buying it's because of the finances or the kids.
> 
> You are ready to climb the walls. For cryin' out loud ... tell her you are leaving if she doesn't rediscover her libido.


Maybe I don't want her to rediscover her libido. Sex with her was mostly bad to begin with. 

It's not just finances, kids. It's family. It's because I was raised to believe divorce is not an option. We have talked a lot over the years and it hasn't been until the last year that we have talked about divorce as a real option. We have talked about the sex thing and neither of us really wants to do anything about it. So here we are.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

wanttolove said:


> I agree with you. I will not cheat and it's one of the reasons why I want to move out, although I want to move out so that I can at least have the chance to explore another relationship. I get that dating while separated can be the same as cheating, but is it really when it's BEEN SO LONG?


Yes!

You want to date, go for it....certainly think your marriage is a sham and you shouldn't live sexless. But divorce first then you can have all the sex you want


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## wanttolove (Jan 25, 2012)

FormerSelf said:


> So it's either you have a s*** counselor or one or both of you broke your promise...or slacked off.
> 
> Was the sex ever good? If so, what changed?



Our counselor was terrible. Sex never really came into the picture except to determine why it wasn't happening. 

Sex with her was almost never very good, with some exceptions. No foreplay. As soon as I was hard, she was ready, got off, then was done. Then she got cleaned up, put her bed clothes back on. The lights never came on.


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## wanttolove (Jan 25, 2012)

FizzBomb said:


> So has divorce been thrown around and discussed, or have you had a legit sit down lay it on the line 'I want out' talk?


Last time we discussed divorce was April, right after I lost my job of 24 years (yes, it has been a great year -- but it took me two days to find another job). That time was her asking the question if I had decided where I wanted our relationship to go. I told her I didn't think it was going anywhere, thought we were going to end up divorced a few years from now. Yes, a few years from now. She has been leaving it up to me to make the decision but really is not doing anything to try to change my mind.

So the answer is, yes we have discussed but no 'I want out' talk. I think that is coming very soon, probably once our daughter is in college (end of August). I seriously am starting to look at my options for housing and am contemplating how I can pay for a divorce.


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## Happilymarried25 (Mar 19, 2014)

"She is 51, blonde, 5'8" tall, 135. My wife is not ugly. But she is not attractive" I'm not sure why you put that part in your post. It shouldn't matter what your wife looks like. It's more how she treats you, which isn't like a husband. While I hate to see a marriage end, especially those with children I do believe you marriage is over. Your wife has resentment towards you for the past and I doubt she will suddenly adore you and want to be affectionate towards you and want to have sex with you again. It sounds like you two are just together to be parents. You are scared to divorce but once you move out that is where you are heading. Don't cheat now. Start dating after your divorce is final so you don't look like the bad guy to your children.

Talk to your wife and tell her your intentions. Give her once last chance to get your marriage back on track. I have a feeling she will accept your moving out and divorce without being too upset. It sounds like she checked out of the marriage years ago. You deserve a loving relationship.


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## wanttolove (Jan 25, 2012)

Wolf1974 said:


> Funny what do they say about cheating?? Love it when religious types pick and choose the convents to adhere to


'Religious types' are people just like you and I. Churches these days are not as rigid as the church I was raised in. A lot of church pastors will not rule out divorce as an option, don't see that biblically it is not an option. 

Cheating is still cheating. It is wrong. It is breaking a vow.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

There is nothing to save here. The quicker you divorce amicably, the better.


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## wanttolove (Jan 25, 2012)

Happilymarried25 said:


> "She is 51, blonde, 5'8" tall, 135. My wife is not ugly. But she is not attractive" I'm not sure why you put that part in your post. It shouldn't matter what your wife looks like. It's more how she treats you, which isn't like a husband. .
> 
> Talk to your wife and tell her your intentions. Give her once last chance to get your marriage back on track. I have a feeling she will accept your moving out and divorce without being too upset. It sounds like she checked out of the marriage years ago. You deserve a loving relationship.


I put that information in my post for the reason you say. She is attractive physically, but how she treats me as her husband is why she is not attractive.

My gut tells me exactly what you say. I don't think she will fight things. It will be her family (she is the youngest of six sisters, no brothers) that will be the most upset.


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## ariel_angel77 (May 23, 2014)

I guess I'm going to be the one to give you advice that no one likes/agrees with. But I plead with you to be as open minded to my advice as you are to everyone else's.

I feel like you already had your mind made up when you came that you wanted to get a divorce; you just came here for clarification so you won't feel bad about it. Well, I am not going to be like everyone else and give you that. Because it's NOT the best thing for you. You made a promise to stay with her for better or for worse. That's in your vows. The Bible also backs it up. Leaving because you are not happy and because she is not fulfilling those needs is breaking your vows. Your family relies on those vows. She has not left nor cheated so a divorce would only cause harm to you and your family.

I understand that I am younger than most users here and that I cannot grasp what you must be feeling and experiencing, but I do know that you should give this your all and never give up. That's what you promised in your vows. Because you are not happy and because she is not fulfilling your needs and even because you haven't had sex in 10 years are NOT an okay reason to divorce. It only means you need help. No, you do not ONLY need to ask God to fix this. Although that's an important part of it, you must also seek wise counsel. Obviously the counselor you have been to is NOT wise counsel, try again for another counselor. If not that counselor, try for another one. Look for one with a solid background in marriage and family therapy and one with great reviews. *The right counselor will work amazing wonders for your marriage.*

Remove the dating website at all costs. Unsubscribe from getting emails. If you can't make a new email and delete your current one. You don't understand how destructive and how much of a temptation things like this are, especially when your marriage is in such a weak position.

One thing I have learned that has helped and saved many marriages is that men need respect and women need love. I know you have been focusing on the "men need respect" part but try for once focusing on "women need love". Court her as if you were dating. Be romantic. She WILL give you respect in return. I would DEFINITELY recommend the book "His Needs, Her Needs." Ask her to please read the book as well.

Also, there may be something physically wrong with her libido. I would try to urge her to get it checked out. She may visit her gynecologist to find out if there is a problem. If so, they can prescribe her medication to help her get her sex drive back. Some women DO have physical reasons that they do not want to have sex, and it may not be you at all. Then again, you may need to do the things I mentioned above. My main advice above all is *get a good counselor at all costs.*

If all else fails, try the Love Dare. It really does work. Try everything to save your marriage. You've been together a long time and have worked this hard, don't give up now. I will include a couple of sermons from Dr. John Piper which saved me from leaving my marriage. I think it's amazing advice for any Christian.

Staying Married Is Not About Staying in Love, Part 1 | Desiring God
Staying Married Is Not About Staying in Love, Part 2 | Desiring God
What God Has Joined Together, Let Not Man Separate, Part 1 | Desiring God
What God Has Joined Together, Let Not Man Separate, Part 2 | Desiring God

Good luck with your marriage journey. I'll be praying for you.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Four pages of comments and nobody has pointed out why his wife disconnected? 10 years ago she had a miscarriage (that's why you have a d&c). This is devastating to a woman, but instead of support from her hb she got a hb that was happy their baby died because he didn't want another. I promise that's how she sees it, and op she's never viewed you the same. I get that you didn't want more kids and that's your right, but to be happy your wife just lost your baby because you didn't want more is extremely sh!tty. You support her and acknowledge the painful loss, then take steps to avoid having more if that's what you want. Have you ever even acknowledged this loss for her? Or was it all about you?

At this point you could try bringing it up but there's likely nothing to save. You chose to stick around, and while you point out lots of things you like that she won't do you don't point out anything that she likes which you do with her. I bet there's another side to this.

Just end the misery for both of you and try to keep it amicable.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Yea. It's really easy to tell someone to "make it work" and "give it your all" when you haven't been through 10 years of anything in the adult world. 

This man and his wife have been disconnected for 10 years. Emotionally and sexually. She's already done. Why pretend another 10 more? What a waste of a lifetime.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

yeah, 10 years is too long.
Last I checked the Bible and the Christian religion in general requires that wives have sex with their husbands. So she is not abiding her religion either.
Bottom line is you will be happy if you get divorced, I think.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

It's not really about being "happy". Happiness comes and goes no matter what your situation is.

The issue is about this man's life and feeling alive. Is this a way to live life? No. Is this was he was put here? Probably not.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Don't worry Ariel, he's not going anywhere. His actions don't match his words. He doesn't have what it takes.


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## wanttolove (Jan 25, 2012)

lifeistooshort said:


> I promise that's how she sees it, and op she's never viewed you the same. I get that you didn't want more kids and that's your right, but to be happy your wife just lost your baby because you didn't want more is extremely sh!tty. Have you ever even acknowledged this loss for her? Or was it all about you?
> 
> At this point you could try bringing it up but there's likely nothing to save. You chose to stick around, and while you point out lots of things you like that she won't do you don't point out anything that she likes which you do with her. I bet there's another side to this.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Kind of difficult to say what it was like to try to support my wife during a miscarriage and the ensuing D & C. I did everything I could, tried not to be relieved and shed a lot of tears with her -- because I too had lost a child. I am trying to remember the term for the pregnancy, but essentially there was a fetus that never developed but her body still thought there was a baby. I never ever said I was relieved, but she assumed it because she knew I did not want another child. That came out in counseling, although she denied that was the reason for cutting me off.

There is always another side. I am trying and it's why I am still around. But I also see a woman who has no interests in supporting me or my interests. Call it selfish if you want, but I call it being human.


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## changedbeliefs (Jun 13, 2014)

TEN YEARS without sex, and you say it wasn't even that good to begin with. I don't know, man....It sounds like you're about 8.5 years late to this discussion. I can't imagine having that kind of baggage to sift through. Your kids are almost both out of the house, and I assume are largely self-sufficient anyway (compared tosay, 6 y/o's, 10 y/o's, etc...). Sounds like the best route is just to free the both of you from this mess and allow yourselves to find the next phase that may let you both be happy.


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## barbados (Aug 30, 2012)

Quoting this from an article :

"The only difference between a friendship and a relationship is intimacy. If you have a sexless marriage or a sexless relationship, what are you? companions? best friends?"

You don't have a marriage anymore. You are roommates and co parents. 

D ASAP ! You deserve better, now you have to convince yourself that you do.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Do you want to be adored or loved? If adored, get a dog. If loved, find a woman with whom to fall in love - after divorcing, of course.

Adoration amongst humans is a fickle state. Go for the gold - love!


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

The bible also teaches to respect your parents and she's also not enforcing that, either. 

Regardless of her feeling bad about your not being devastated by the loss of the fetus, it's been 10 years! Work through it and be done with it, I say. She has a mouth - she can certainly speak up about her feelings and suggest marriage counseling if that is what has been bugging her for TEN YEARS. I don't know how this can be a satisfying marriage for her, either.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

ariel_angel77 said:


> I guess I'm going to be the one to give you advice that no one likes/agrees with. But I plead with you to be as open minded to my advice as you are to everyone else's.
> 
> I feel like you already had your mind made up when you came that you wanted to get a divorce; you just came here for clarification so you won't feel bad about it. Well, I am not going to be like everyone else and give you that. Because it's NOT the best thing for you. You made a promise to stay with her for better or for worse. That's in your vows. The Bible also backs it up. Leaving because you are not happy and because she is not fulfilling those needs is breaking your vows. Your family relies on those vows. She has not left nor cheated so a divorce would only cause harm to you and your family.
> 
> ...


No offense, but you're out of your mind on this. 

Wanttolove, just make your plan and get out. Stop discussing it with her and just get on with it. Its not like she doesnt know how you feel, its not like she thinks everything is ok, and it certainly not like she is ever going to change or try for you. 

JUST GO. BE HAPPY.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

wanttolove said:


> 'Religious types' are people just like you and I. Churches these days are not as rigid as the church I was raised in. A lot of church pastors will not rule out divorce as an option, don't see that biblically it is not an option.
> 
> Cheating is still cheating. It is wrong. It is breaking a vow.


Most of the religious types I have met are nothing like me. They are justifiers using religion as a "get out of jail card". At least you admit cheating is wrong so don't do it. 

You have only three options if your honorable.

Stay and be miserable
Leave and pursue happiness
Or try and change the marriage which doesn't sound feasible


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

wanttolove said:


> 2. Our standards of discipline with our children, especially our son, do not coincide. She believes in negotiation, not punishment. Any punishment, whether we have agreed on it or not, is usually reversed by her. Our son has resorted to attacking me physically, punching me at times, yet she still backs him up.


You need to sit your wife and your son down and draw a line in the sand.

1. Promise them that the next time your son hits you, you WILL call the police.

2. Tell them the police will ask if you want to press charges for assault, and that you will press charges.

3. Tell them that being charged with assault will complicate their lives for a while: You will insist that your son pay his own fines and court fees. Let them know that there will be court appearances they will have to go to, counselling, diversion activities (meetings and volunteer work.) 

4. Only one parent is required to be present at court and at the Child Protective counselling sessions. Tell your wife that she will be the one to go with him, since she thinks hitting is OK. You have other things to do other than going to court appointments. She will also be the one to take drop him off at his diversion activities if he can't get himself there.

Make it clear that either your son stops hitting you, or his and your wife's lives will suddenly get very complicated and busy, and not in a fun way.

I'm telling you this from my own experience.

Our son began to get violent when he was a sophomore in high school. I called the police when he assaulted me (he grabbed my arm and bruised it.) I called the police when he assaulted my husband (head butted and punched him.) His physical outbursts only ended when he had to spend a few nights in a juvenile detention center. If he did not get in trouble again, the assault charge would go away when he was 18. That cured him of getting physical any more. He is older now, and is not a violent or angry person. He admits now that he was purposefully pushing our buttons, hoping we would let him move out before he was of legal age.

Your son is out of line. Your wife is also out of line.

Regarding no sex for 10 years: That is not even Biblical. I am a Christian. Even during times when we were having trouble, and I wasn't interested in sex myself, I initiated it with him to fulfill my marital responsibility to him and to God. Your wife is waaaay out of line here. You too are responsible for it. Why have you put up with it so long? 3 months would be long enough to figure out something is terribly wrong. You should have stayed in counselling, even changing counselors until one of them addressed the sex issue. If she couldn't muster up enough love after another year or so, then you should have let D her. If all she needs is an apartment mate, then she doesn't need to be married, does she?


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## wanttolove (Jan 25, 2012)

ariel_angel77 said:


> Good luck with your marriage journey. I'll be praying for you.


That might be the most important from what you just said. Kind of hard to respond to everything.

I have read "His Needs, Her Needs". There is quite a bit in that book that, at the time we read it, we frankly found cliché and not practical. That was probably 20 years ago and I shared small group leadership as we studied/discussed the book with our bible study group (young couples).

I am just not sure that we are not past the point of no return. I am not sure I can trust that she will not just return to old habits. I am not sure I just want to start over with someone else.

Are you SURE about the Bible stuff?


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## wanttolove (Jan 25, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Don't worry Ariel, he's not going anywhere. His actions don't match his words. He doesn't have what it takes.


Seriously? Why do you say that? I am honestly interested to know how you have figured that out. What actions do not match?:scratchhead:


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

wanttolove said:


> That might be the most important from what you just said. Kind of hard to respond to everything.
> 
> I have read "His Needs, Her Needs". There is quite a bit in that book that, at the time we read it, we frankly found cliché and not practical. That was probably 20 years ago and I shared small group leadership as we studied/discussed the book with our bible study group (young couples).
> 
> ...


You are WAY PAST the point of no return, be honest with yourself about this. This woman has zero respect for you and clearly is not in love with you and has NOT been for a decade. Stop subjecting yourself to this emotional beating, its to the point of being absurd. Go, find your happy.


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## FormerSelf (Apr 21, 2013)

I can't remember the name of the book, but I would say that you are on the other end of the marital dance of death, where it starts off with a lot of fighting and blaming that just builds and builds...and then one day, it just doesn't matter anymore...you stop fighting, but have grown completely disinterested in investing in the relationship. The author says that is a state where it is nearly impossible to get out of that hole...that the marriage has died.

I say it is possible, but it would take a massive concerted effort and I don't see that happening. I can understand that some people are conservative when it comes to sex, but even conservative sex can be exciting and joyful if that is where they are coming from. The fact that your wife hates sex, is ashamed by it, and denies it as a form of passive aggressive punishment shows that she has some issues...and/or is DEEPLY resentful about something.

On the other hand, i am of the belief that most women are extremely sexual...and in certain scenarios, the clothes would fly off of the most frigid woman if her partner pushed all the right buttons.

You would know best as to what the right call should be. If you are still on the fence, give it one last effort...such as a one-sided The Love Dare attempt. Sacred Marriage by Gary Thomas is a great book for Christian perspective, too. If she responds and starts making positive changes, great. If not, I guess its up to you.

I think a great start would to take the focus off of her and what she isn't providing, and make sure that you have all your ducks in order. You may very well be exhibiting behavior that just absolutely turns her off.


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## wanttolove (Jan 25, 2012)

Hicks said:


> yeah, 10 years is too long.
> Last I checked the Bible and the Christian religion in general requires that wives have sex with their husbands. So she is not abiding her religion either.


I wrote about that topic not too long ago. One way for me to cope is to write (one of the reasons I posted this thread last night). My thoughts on I Corinthians 7:5 still seem spot on. Yes, Paul does say that husband and wife should take care of their partner -- because temptation is too great. God created with a sexual need!

Stuck In The Middle | shenrydafrankmann


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## wanttolove (Jan 25, 2012)

intheory said:


> :iagree:
> 
> wanttolove
> 
> ...


I can't agree with the social club comment. And I Corinthians 7 should be read in full context. I actually wrote about that passage not too long ago:

Stuck In The Middle | shenrydafrankmann


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

One year of forced sexlessness is reason enough to cheat or leave. After ten years... Did you just wake up or something and it all went by much faster than you expected?

She's candidate for being cheated on or leave.


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## wanttolove (Jan 25, 2012)

treyvion said:


> One year of forced sexlessness is reason enough to cheat or leave. After ten years... Did you just wake up or something and it all went by much faster than you expected?
> 
> She's candidate for being cheated on or leave.


No. It has been a struggle for a long time. And there came a point where she asked me if I was cheating simply because I had reason.

And it does get more tough to leave the longer you wait. As some have intimated here, actions or lack thereof speak. It wish it were that easy. Commitment is tough and I take that commitment seriously. And I know there is fault on my part. Of course there is! But....


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## seahorse (Apr 10, 2010)

...I'm riding high upon a deep depression. I'm only happy when it rains...






JustSomeGuyWho said:


> I am convinced that over time in a sexless marriage, many people who have the higher sex drive eventually lose their sex drive to match their spouse. I know for me, it was more difficult early on than it is now ... so I don't know that ten years is all that much harder than 2 years in terms of 'climbing the walls' but I do know that it has to be emotionally devastating as it has been for me. I also know that if he does leave her and finds someone who wants to have sex with him, he'll be kicking himself for what he put himself through.
> 
> My wife has said she could go the rest of her life without sex. I believe her. I also believe she doesn't care how I feel about that.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

wanttolove said:


> Seriously? Why do you say that? I am honestly interested to know how you have figured that out. What actions do not match?:scratchhead:


You've been here over 2 years complaining but not actually leaving. Your actions (or rather, lack of action) shows that you're not going anywhere. Bottom line, I'll believe it when I see it.


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## wanttolove (Jan 25, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> You've been here over 2 years complaining but not actually leaving. Your actions (or rather, lack of action) shows that you're not going anywhere. Bottom line, I'll believe it when I see it.


Fair enough. Don't you think two years is not much when I have been married 22 years? This is a big decision....


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

We're talking about much more than 2 years. 2 years ago you were saying the sex life had been bad for 11/12 years and totally gone for at least 6. So when it turned bad you had been married only 10 years. You had 10 good years and 12 bad. You've had plenty of time. 

I do wish you luck. If you can't bring yourself to do the right thing I hope you can at least learn to accept.


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## seahorse (Apr 10, 2010)

I'm a Christian, so I also believe in trying to make marriage work. I could fill whole chapters about my general lack of enthusiasm for how sexuality is addressed in the church, as I fell victim to a lot of religiosity, empty promises, and vain cliches. Many of these so-called 'principles' are taught in the latest book/seminar sideshows, even though specific knowledge of HOW to fix each marriage is clearly lacking. I spent the last 2 decades of my life studying this problem from a 1st hand perspective, so trust me when I say that I know exactly what I'm talking about. Today I understand things better but am left struggling with the consequences of choices made years ago. 

Because you said sex was never great, I would relate the issues around a lack of desire/attraction. For 99% of people, there is something somewhere that turns them on. For a handful of folks, there just isn't.

Is your wife in the former category or the latter? I think your marriage holds more prospect for healing if she's in the former. Behaviors can be changed, resentments dropped (over time). But a spouse who literally never thinks about sex and yet won't consider your conundrum... how do you fix that? That is a hard heartedness problem, the very thing Jesus warned us about. If you've done your part to express unconditional love for her and a desire to become an attractive/desirable spouse yet all she gives back is indifference, she has a heart problem. Only Christ can fix that.


Good luck

-seahorse




wanttolove said:


> Fair enough. Don't you think two years is not much when I have been married 22 years? This is a big decision....


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## nuclearnightmare (May 15, 2013)

OP

You do realize that you have answered your own question, right? Figure out what you can do quickest, legal separation or divorce. In either case make sure your wife knows/understands that it is over between the two of you and you are moving on to find someone else. Set yourself the goal that you will make this happen so quickly that there will be no need to take down your dating profile.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

Christianity is one thing; religiosity is another kettle of fish.

My take on it is your wife hides behind her "religious beliefs" in order not to face the fact that she doesn't like sex. You hide behind yours to justify staying in a dead-end marriage.

What does it mean not to "believe" in divorce? Divorce is justified in adulterous situations. However, I highly suggest you read Drs. Cloud and Townsend, who are Christians and highly-qualified counselors. They have plenty to say about bad marriages and lack of boundaries. 

Do miracles occur? Sure. But first and foremost, people have a FREE WILL to choose sexless lives. I don't see your wife miraculously discovering that intimacy in marriage can be enjoyable for her. You can lead a horse to water ....

... but I don't see your wife ever wanting to drink from the same well as you.

Christians divorce, like it or not. Hey, even Catholics divorce, and I was raised in a strict Irish Catholic home. There were divorces within the family. Regardless of how many candles my grandma lit or how many rosaries she prayed.

If your conscience and beliefs bother you this much, stay and suck it up.

Seriously.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

Could your wife have a very low libido? There are herbs that help with that. My husband got them for me when I was toward the end of menopause. At the time, I never thought of sex, and when we were intimate, I could hardly feel anything. He didn't want a sexless marriage, and he wanted me to feel something, not just be available for him. 

At one point I actually told him that I didn't really care if I had sex ever again. It was not because I was angry or repulsed by him, but because my body was shut down. I thought my sex life was over, and I was not going to sit around and worry about it, but I was going to accept it and move on.

My words really frightened him, so he started researching herbs for women and ordered a couple of different brands that had combinations that were good for menopause and a woman's libido. I would forget to take them and he would get them and hand them to me.

The herbs helped a lot! It took a couple of weeks for me to begin feeling something whenever we were intimate, and I started desiring him again in my mind!

Now that menopause is over, my hormones have evened out and I don't need the herbs. My husband's concern and initiative really impressed me. He needs sex, he wants to have it with me, and he is willing to do something to make it happen.

Your wife needs to know how much sex means to you and to what means you are willing to go to have it with HER.


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## JWTBL (May 28, 2014)

I feel bad for all these people who have loveless marriages (and that included me). I thought it would be the most terrible thing in the world, to be alone, so even though I didn't really feel much of anything anymore for my husband, I stuck it out and just figured that was the way it was, and that was the way it was going to be, because I just didn't have enough imagination to think my life could be different, after being with this person for 35 yrs. It took me 2 yrs., but I am finally realizing, wait a minute, you mean I am actually a real person here, that can think for myself, have my own thoughts, decide what I want to do with my time, without a constant undercurrent of someone else's opinion? There is probably nothing wrong with his opinion and way of looking at life, but it never gelled with what my outlook on life was. I spend a lot of nights alone now, but how is that worse than spending them with some stranger? 
Anyway, what I'm trying to say is, by reading your posts, it is time for you two to separate and start taking your own journeys. Like someone said, its not about being happy, per se, but rather about being real. There's really nothing like it. 
I have had 2 glasses of wine while listening to Alt-J, so this post may be a little more buoyant than otherwise.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

You want sex, but not only the physical act. It is the emotional connection. But everything is dead. God may raise the dead in some Biblical passages. Sarah had a baby at 90 because God favored Abraham.

File for divorce and pray for a miracle.


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

Your wife has broken her marriage vows by denying you sex. That's not very christian is it? Ask her what she thinks of that.


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## Omego (Apr 17, 2013)

I don't understand these situations, but I agree with those who say to get out now. It seems like you are being emotionally abused by your wife because she is denying you what is, or should be, the foundation of marriage. And this has been going on for 10 years? How do you deal with that? I don't blame you at all for signing up for a dating site. However, it would be more honest to leave, THEN reactivate the profile.

And the kid who hits you???? Your wife is not treating you with respect and neither is your son. 

I hope you will not continue to be a victim, because from what I have read, that is exactly what you are.


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## ClimbingTheWalls (Feb 16, 2013)

wanttolove said:


> 3. Even though she knew I only wanted two children, she pushed for more. Why do I know it has been over ten years? Because that is when the D & C happened. And she claimed I didn't support her, not because I wasn't there, but because she felt I was relieved that we were not going to have a third child -- something she shared in counseling after years of sexual inactivity and zero affection.


This exact thing has killed a friend's marriage stone dead.

The couple is still together, mostly because he is still in love with her and will do pretty much anything to keep her (although when their 2 children are grown I suspect this may change).

If you want to rebuild your marriage you will have to address this issue.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

wanttolove said:


> Are you SURE about the Bible stuff?


Here's the real "Bible stuff" that nobody wants to talk about and will even explicitly, and falsely, deny.

#1 Christian spouses, as has already been mentioned, are specifically told to put out for each other. Not doing so is marriage "fraud." Basically, "put out or get out" is a Biblical principle.

#2 The Hebrews and their descendants in the Old and New Testaments (including those who followed Jesus) were polygynous. I Timothy and Titus state that an elder or deacon must be a "one woman man," but this is no restriction on the rank and file. Monogamy entered the Church through the Roman converts, as Augustine points out. This is why Martin Luther had no problem performing polygynous marriages. It is also one "reason" given in the Translator's notes of the KJV 1611 for the RCC not translating the Bible into the common tongue.

#3 When Jesus says in Matthew that divorcing a wife for reasons other than _porneia_ and replacing her is adultery, he's doing so in the context of a polygynous society, where the only restrictions on males interacting with women are adultery (the Lev.20:10 definition), incest, and temple prostitution. In a way, Jesus is reiterating the Old Testament injunction to "Remember the wife of thy youth," and not turn her out just because she got old. Jesus definitely does not say you can't add a woman to your harem.


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## wanttolove (Jan 25, 2012)

Machiavelli said:


> #3 When Jesus says in Matthew that divorcing a wife for reasons other than _porneia_ and replacing her is adultery, he's doing so in the context of a polygynous society, where the only restrictions on males interacting with women are adultery (the Lev.20:10 definition), incest, and temple prostitution. In a way, Jesus is reiterating the Old Testament injunction to "Remember the wife of thy youth," and not turn her out just because she got old. Jesus definitely does not say you can't add a woman to your harem.


I took the time, something I really have not done except when it comes to what Paul says about marriage in I Corinthians, to go through the Bible a bit more thoroughly, partially because of what you say here.

Sorry, but what you are saying SEEMS more like justification, not truth. I do appreciate what you say, which is why I chose to 'like' your response. Jesus is not just speaking in cultural context, unfortunately for me I think. I am trying to figure out if sexual deprivation constitutes sexual immorality. It is definitely abuse. I am going to post a Dr. Laura quote here, probably not in this thread, which I find interesting in the context of deprivation. I find it very true, by experience!


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## wanttolove (Jan 25, 2012)

Awwwww, heck, here is the Dr. Laura quote:

"Sex is to a husband what conversation is to a wife. When a wife deprives her husband of sex for days, even weeks on end, it is tantamount to his refusing to talk to her for days, even weeks. Think of it that way, wives, and realize what a deleterious impact enforced sexual abstinence has on a good man who is determined to remain faithful."

From _The Proper Care And Feeding of Husbands_, Laura Schlessinger, a quote by a listener to Dr. Laura


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## wanttolove (Jan 25, 2012)

Anyone interested in the view on divorce that most conservative Christians follow, here is the view that Focus on the Family provides:

What is Focus on the Family's position on divorce and remarriage?


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

wanttolove said:


> I took the time, something I really have not done except when it comes to what Paul says about marriage in I Corinthians, to go through the Bible a bit more thoroughly, partially because of what you say here.
> 
> Sorry, but what you are saying SEEMS more like justification, not truth. I do appreciate what you say, which is why I chose to 'like' your response. Jesus is not just speaking in cultural context, unfortunately for me I think. I am trying to figure out if sexual deprivation constitutes sexual immorality. It is definitely abuse. I am going to post a Dr. Laura quote here, probably not in this thread, which I find interesting in the context of deprivation. I find it very true, by experience!


Justification? Nope. The Almighty is the guy who laid out the rules for polygynous marriage in the Torah/Pentatuech/Five Books, etc. He also portrays himself in the prophetical books as the husband of two "wives," Israel and Judah, both of whom were adulterous. What was the Almighty trying to justify? Get your head out of Churchian BS and read it as it was meant to be read. Once you take Jesus out of his cultural context as a first century Jew under the Roman thumb and try to plant him in today's society, you can't make heads or tails. And that is why we have biblical exegesis.

Sexual deprivation does not constitute _porneia._ _Porneia_ was the greek word "prostitution" which modern translations interpret as "sexual immorality." It was used by the New Testament writers (e.g. Acts: Council of Jerusalem), as well as other Jews of the day working in Greek (Septuagint), as a catchall term for the forbidden sexual practices listed in Leviticus: male homosexuality, certain incests (e.g. mother and her daughter as wives), bestiality, adultery, and temple prostitution.

Deprivation does violate the implicit marriage contract, and under that rationale the Puritans (a very lusty lot) believed that divorce was fully justified if either party was not able or willing to deliver the goods. In the time of Jesus, a man could add a wife or concubine to attend to sexual needs without going the divorce route on the non-performing spouse. The Puritans didn't have this option, since they retained a Roman outlook on marriage. If you like the Roman marriage, that's fine, just remember that the Romans also were permitted sexual access to slave women, even in the Christian era, with absolutely no ecclesiastical issues (same as the Hebrews).


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

wanttolove said:


> Anyone interested in the view on divorce that most conservative Christians follow, here is the view that Focus on the Family provides:
> 
> What is Focus on the Family's position on divorce and remarriage?





Linked by wanttolove said:


> Nevertheless, we feel that there are three situations in which the Scriptures make allowance for divorce and remarriage: 1) When the first marriage and divorce occurred prior to salvation. Although a person cannot undo all the sins he has committed, he is forgiven for the wrongs he did before accepting Christ (see II Corinthians 5:17).


No problem.



Linked by wanttolove said:


> 2) When one’s mate is guilty of sexual immorality and is *unwilling to repent and live faithfully* with the marriage partner. Jesus states specifically that divorce and remarriage are acceptable when due to this kind of “hardness of heart” (see Matthew 19:9).


That's a major mangling of the passage to force a guy to stay with a WW. Jesus sets no such clause, but the bolded section is right in line with the "Female First" position that Focus on the Family takes. Neither does "hardness of heart" appear in Matthew 19:9, although Jesus said Moses allowed divorce for any cause "due to the hardness of your hearts" in an earlier verse.



wanttolove said:


> 3) When one of the mates is an unbeliever and willfully and permanently deserts the believing partner. This does not refer to a temporary departure, but a permanent abandonment (see I Corinthians 7:12-15).


And again, abandonment is not denial.


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## wanttolove (Jan 25, 2012)

Machiavelli said:


> Justification? Nope. The Almighty is the guy who laid out the rules for polygynous marriage in the Torah/Pentatuech/Five Books, etc. He also portrays himself in the prophetical books as the husband of two "wives," Israel and Judah, both of whom were adulterous. What was the Almighty trying to justify? Get your head out of Churchian BS and read it as it was meant to be read. Once you take Jesus out of his cultural context as a first century Jew under the Roman thumb and try to plant him in today's society, you can't make heads or tails. And that is why we have biblical exegesis.
> QUOTE]
> 
> OK. Israel and Judah are nations, not physical wives. What are you trying to imply? It has nothing to do with marriage nor is it intended to. That is not applying 'churchian BS', it IS reading in the intended context.
> ...


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

wanttolove said:


> OK. Israel and Judah are nations, not physical wives. What are you trying to imply? It has nothing to do with marriage nor is it intended to. That is not applying 'churchian BS', it IS reading in the intended context.


It's a metaphor, but God would not have cast himself as a polygynist had he wanted to limit men as a class to one woman. Nor would he have issued, via Moses, such detailed instructions about proper harem management as we find in scripture.



wanttolove said:


> I get the idea that your real purpose is to discount God and Jesus, try to make both irrelevant.


Um... No. My purpose is to get you to think about what the Bible actually says about marriage and divorce vs what the Roman converts and their disciples taught/teach.



wanttolove said:


> That is not necessary in my opinion. Learning to accept what God tells us is far more difficult than understanding (or making heads or tails).Let's not make this a God debate, please.


You're the one who brought up the Biblical angle. Your present predicament, trying to square your plans to divorce your wife, for failure to deliver, with Matthew 19:9 (_And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication [porneia], and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery)_ can't be escaped, unless you look at the context.

However, you can reframe the question to:

Are you biblically limited to one woman? 

What the church has been pushing since the 16th century is practical monogamy, as opposed to legal monogamy which it began pushing in the 2nd Century with the increasing Roman influx. Neither has a basis in NT or OT scripture, Judean practice in the first century, or Jewish practice up to about 1000 AD when the Ashkenazi banned it.

Or, you can look at it as a violation of the implied marriage contract when you agreed to monogamous marriage, thus grounds for divorce; which is how the Puritans took it. No first century Judean had to marry under terms of contractual everlasting monogamy (or sexual denial in your case), so you'll just have to _"work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."_

Good luck.


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