# Trying to give her a reasons to reconcile: How should (can?) words accompany actions?



## TXCiclista

I hope this is the right sub-forum:


46 y.o. male w/ 2 kids, facing the crumbling of an 18-year marriage. It's my fault. I've been neglectful and haven't made my wife feel important, possibly since the first year. No abuse, no infidelity, just failure to see her as someone who truly mattered. I also moved to a stressful job 5 years ago and brought that stress home for several years (mostly manifesting as snap-anger and yelling at my wife or kids). 2 years ago, I was diagnosed with diabetes and the meds almost immediately fixed the anger issues (I can count on one hand the number of times I've been angry in the past 2 years). Diabetes meds did not fix the neglect and not-making-her-feel-important, however. This summer, after what seemed to be a wonderful family vacation, my wife said she didn't want to be married. More recently, she's used the word "divorce." It has been the most devastating wake-up call I've ever had. I feel like the most horrible person on the planet for what I've done to her. She doesn't love me anymore, and I can't blame her for that at all. She has said she doesn't hate me, but it was immediately follwed by something to the effect of "but I don't love you either." She does say I'm a good dad and that our (amazing) kids are "The one good thing we've done together." I'm desperate to save our marriage (and, by extension, family) and give her a reason to love me again, but I know this isn't something I can fix. All I can do is change in all the ways she and the kids (and I) need to. I've backed off and am doing everything I can to give her space (without losing my sanity in the process). I'm keeping the house clean (she hated the mess), doing the laundry and dishes daily (she felt like she was the only doing chores around the house), and doinng more than my share with the kids (she did 85% for years, so it's my turn to do that). I'm nailing down my spending habits and listening to her advice on things. I try not to talk about me, just her and the kids. I'm also working on myself physically, intellectually, emotionally, and spiritually. I'm doing everything I can to give her what she wants or needs (as far as I can intuit or am outright told). She's still in the house and our interactions are pleasant. Which brings to me the reason for posting:

Google has maybe steered me wrong on this, but the #1 piece of advice I see is to keep giving my wife space, work on myself, and NOT talk about the marriage/divorce. The first two make sense, but I'm not sure about the third. Specifically, I feel like I should constantly be acknowledging my mistakes, affirming her worth, and all around doinng the exact opposite of what I've done for nearly two decades. On the other hand, I can easily see how that could drive her away if all I ever did was "sorry this, sorry that" or "You look great" (I told her that *maybe* 10 times in 18 years) or "what do you think?" Still, I feel as though those things should accompany the evidence of meaningful change. Am I wrong? Is there a "sweet spot" for taking responsibility and acknowledging the hurt and pain I've caused? Once a day? Once every few days? Several days of positive interactions/actions, with a brief "I know that I've hurt you. I can never say I'm sorry enough. I'm changing. I hope I have time to prove it"? Do I apologize when I think of a specific case of neglecting her? "I am sorry that, 6 years ago, I didn't hear your pain when you said ______." Or at this point, have I lost any and all privilege to these sorts of conversations (I certainly feel like I have) and the only wise course of action is a positive, not-pushy attitude that gives her time to see the changes in action?

I'm drowning (like she has been for 18 years), and in no way can I or should I expect my wife to throw me a life preserver. I have days (weeks? Months?) to learn to swim, and it's terrifying. It's a monster of my own creation and my time in Purgatory will be long bc of it. I have deeply, and perhaps irrevocably, hurt the most amazing woman I've ever known, and the one person in the world I swore to cherish for all my days. I have to make this right, even if it means giving her a divorce and then just being the best ex I possibly can. 

Any help is appreciated.

(A few other details: I've finally got a line on a counselor and hope to start soon. My wife has not filed for divorce yet, but has had a lawyer on retainer for several years after a particularly bad road rage episode. She has said she wants an amicable divorce and has agreed to see a divorce mediator lawyer and release the other lawyer. She is not interested in marital counseling, for reasons that now make perfect sense to me. She is seeing her own personal counselor, however. She has not "set a date" or served me with papers. She still lives in the house, though I have decided (wrongfully?) on my own to start sleeping on the couch so the bedroom is hers when sleeping. Any other details needed, just ask.)

EDIT: To be clear, I'm working on changing because I need to be a better person. Period. I hope that it will have the added benefit of saving our marriage, but I realize that the person she's divorcing is not someone I'd stay with either. It's also not someone I even want to be.


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## UpsideDownWorld11

Sounds to me like she is checked out, which means her mind is already made up. About the only thing you can do is start to picture your life without her. Get a gym membership and find yourself a divorce lawyer. If she is already lawyering up, its over dude.

Are you sure she isn't having an affair, that is fairly typical in these situations.


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## personofinterest

Before you do the typical affair assumption thing, you should know something that many will not admit but that is ABSOLUTE FACT:

Women who have been repeatedly neglected and mistreated WILL choose to leave without an affair, and they have every right to do so. Let me say that again. The fact that your wife has had enough of a marriage in which she did not matter doesn't mean she is cheating. There is a subset of "men" who think that it is impossible for any man to actually be a crappy enough husband for the wife to leave unless she is cheating. These men are flat wrong.

I have no idea if your wife is cheating or not. I just want to point out that when a wife has enough, it isn't because she is evil for having a vagina.


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## TXCiclista

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Sounds to me like she is checked out, which means her mind is already made up. About the only thing you can do is start to picture your life without her. Get a gym membership and find yourself a divorce lawyer. If she is already lawyering up, its over dude.
> 
> Are you sure she isn't having an affair, that is fairly typical in these situations.





personofinterest said:


> Before you do the typical affair assumption thing, you should know something that many will not admit but that is ABSOLUTE FACT:
> 
> Women who have been repeatedly neglected and mistreated WILL choose to leave without an affair, and they have every right to do so. Let me say that again. The fact that your wife has had enough of a marriage in which she did not matter doesn't mean she is cheating. There is a subset of "men" who think that it is impossible for any man to actually be a crappy enough husband for the wife to leave unless she is cheating. These men are flat wrong.
> 
> I have no idea if your wife is cheating or not. I just want to point out that when a wife has enough, it isn't because she is evil for having a vagina.


No, no affair. I mean it's _technically _possible, but she's more likely to grow wings than take that route. @personofinterest has nailed it. She's had enough. My only hope is that she's never laid things out for me clearly, so I've never truly understood what I needed to do to be a good husband (that sounds lame, I know). Sure, there have been hints for years, but the "don't want to be married" is out of the blue for me. That's not to say I shouldn't have seen it coming, only that I've never been as committed to fixing myself and our relationship as I am now. That, and the fact that she's said she plans to drop her lawyer and go with a mediation lawyer. Our kids are the world to both of us and neither she nor I will take a route that will hurt them (anymore than the fact of a divorce already will). I don't know if reconciliation is possible, but I have to at least try. My wife is unique in so many ways. Perhaps this is also one of them.

I appreciate the advice, and will take it to heart, but I do actually want to know if words should accompany actions, or if it's only the latter that matter (with the usual caveat that each situation is unique, etc)


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## Yeswecan

Been there sir. I understand. However, your road is a bit more difficult than mine was. When I finely figured out were I screwed up(no attention to my wife) I came to my wife hat in hand. I asked that she let me speak my peace. State my failures in the marriage. I acknowledged my wrongs and did not put one ounce of blame on my wife for my less than stellar husband skills. In short, I sucked. I had anger issues. I neglected. I asked that she let me prove through actions and not words that I can turn it around. My wife let me(where as your has taken more steps in D but has not produces any paperwork as yet). My actions were starting to date my wife again. Diners, time spent together(no less than 15 hours a week together). Other things similar to what you are doing now. Being a help with the house, kids, etc. I spent much time and still to let my wife know she is appreciated by me. It could be a short note or just saying it. . I do get my wife flowers from time to time. 

You may be in good standings and more then you think. Your W has consulted a lawyer(that is free). No real paperwork has been produces from said lawyer. That is a good sign. Your W may be on the fence. She is quite possibly taking note of your actions. Your best bet is keeping your wife NUMBER 1 in everything. Even over the kids, family and friends. When I finally got a clue and completely changed my actions did my marriage turn around. Thankfully my wife allowed me time to see the change is permanent. She did say she was scared it would not be a permanent change. I was able to prove beyond a doubt(7 years now) the changes are here for good. 

Keep doing what you are doing. The changes will be felt. Minds can be changed. Love can regrow. Keep up posted.


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## UpsideDownWorld11

The fact, that she won't even attempt marriage councelling is fairly telling to me. Its not like you can IC but not MC or MC and not IC... You can try and be her maid and butler but while its a good peace offering, I really doubt its going to go far in building her love emotions. Assumming she isn't cheating, you might try to isolate her. Log cabin in the mountains or something, case of wine, jacuzzi, find a sitter for the kids. Invite her and if she comes, you see where it takes you. If she declines, then its over. Get a lawyer and serve her.


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## TXCiclista

Yeswecan said:


> Your W has consulted a lawyer(that is free). No real paperwork has been produces from said lawyer. That is a good sign. Your W may be on the fence.


No, she actually drew up papers three years ago. Or at least that’s what she’s said. Her parents lent her the money to do that and then keep the lawyer on retainer. Where I see the possibility of hope is that she’s told me about it and has said she’ll drop the lawyer (I offered to help pay her parents back) and we can go to mediation. I see a small, possible ray of light there, since she could, apparently, serve me tomorrow (and has been able to for three years.. I may be fooling myself and I’m three years too late, but like I said, I have to try.

Thanks for the other advice. I will keep it in mind.


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## Yeswecan

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> The fact, that she won't even attempt marriage councelling is fairly telling to me. Its not like you can IC but not MC or MC and not IC... You can try and be her maid and butler but while its a good peace offering, I really doubt its going to go far in building her love emotions. Assumming she isn't cheating, you might try to isolate her. Log cabin in the mountains or something, case of wine, jacuzzi, find a sitter for the kids. Invite her and if she comes, you see where it takes you. If she declines, then its over. Get a lawyer and serve her.


Marriage counselors are nice but not always necessary. Two willing individuals is what is necessary. 

He is not being a maid or butler. He is being a team member of the household and help running it.

Isolate her....is another way of saying, date your wife like you did before marriage. You should be taking her away. You should be having date nights just the two of you. It is the dating, care and attention that got you married in the first place. Why stop after the vow? It should not.


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## Casual Observer

TXCiclista said:


> No, she actually drew up papers three years ago. Or at least that’s what she’s said. Her parents lent her the money to do that and then keep the lawyer on retainer. Where I see the possibility of hope is that she’s told me about it and has said she’ll drop the lawyer (I offered to help pay her parents back) and we can go to mediation. I see a small, possible ray of light there, since she could, apparently, serve me tomorrow (and has been able to for three years.. I may be fooling myself and I’m three years too late, but like I said, I have to try.
> 
> Thanks for the other advice. I will keep it in mind.


So you can't look back three or four years and see any sort of straw that broke the camel's back?

You've got a tough road ahead of you. If she's not willing to see a marriage counselor and entertain in any way the possibility of staying married, I don't see a future for the two of you together. Perhaps you might start by simply asking for time. Is there anything you can do to stop the clock, say, for a year. Have an honest, sincere conversation with her about what she sees as HER future. If she were to stall plans for a year, would it matter? It might. Better that you know that sooner than later.


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## wilson

A huge complication is that it can seem like you're doing all this stuff just to win her back rather than it being a real change in who you are. It's very common for people to get energized for change in a time of crisis but then slide back into old behaviors once things calm down. I'm not sure you even know what you will be like in the future. Right now you're in the storm, but you won't really know until things settle down. All these changes you're making will still need to be there even after life gets back to day-to-day normality.

What's the right thing for her? Which path provides the most happiness in her life. We know you don't want to lose her, but is being with you her best chance of life-long happiness? True love is doing what's right for your partner, even if that means you step away.

How old are your kids? Since you have kids, it's definitely worth trying to work things out. Maybe you can get her to agree to work on things for 6 months or a year in the interest of trying to keep the family together.


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## Yeswecan

TXCiclista said:


> No, she actually drew up papers three years ago. Or at least that’s what she’s said. Her parents lent her the money to do that and then keep the lawyer on retainer. Where I see the possibility of hope is that she’s told me about it and has said she’ll drop the lawyer (I offered to help pay her parents back) and we can go to mediation. I see a small, possible ray of light there, since she could, apparently, serve me tomorrow (and has been able to for three years.. I may be fooling myself and I’m three years too late, but like I said, I have to try.
> 
> Thanks for the other advice. I will keep it in mind.


Well sir, 7 years ago my wife threw out the D word. She was done. 100% done. She point blank told me to get help. My anger issues completely exhausted her. My inattention crushed her mentally( she felt ugly. Cried herself to sleep many nights after my reject) That revelation was soul crushing. Man, it was time for me to own my crap. So with that said, complete lasting change. 

So, your W has papers at the ready from 3 years ago? It has been a long 3 years to not serve so that is a good sign. Yes, try and don't stop. If not for your own peace in the matter. 

No go book a day away with your W. Maybe a night if you can. Take her to places she likes. Don't give up.


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## TXCiclista

Casual Observer said:


> So you can't look back three or four years and see any sort of straw that broke the camel's back?


Absolutely, I can. She’s also said it’s taken her this long to get up the nerve as it were. My anger was an issue then. Now I’m not angry and she feels safe to talk about this. Right now, I agree that time (plus change) is the only chance I’ve got, and even that may not enough. I give myself a 1-in-a-million chance here, but as Floyd said in Dumb and a Dumber: “So you're saying there’s a chance.” Your advice about asking her if stalling plans for a year would matter is excellent. I will do that. 



wilson said:


> A huge complication is that it can seem like you're doing all this stuff just to win her back rather than it being a real change in who you are. It's very common for people to get energized for change in a time of crisis but then slide back into old behaviors once things calm down. I'm not sure you even know what you will be like in the future. Right now you're in the storm, but you won't really know until things settle down. All these changes you're making will still need to be there even after life gets back to day-to-day normality.
> 
> What's the right thing for her? Which path provides the most happiness in her life. We know you don't want to lose her, but is being with you her best chance of life-long happiness? True love is doing what's right for your partner, even if that means you step away.


Right. I agree completely. And if divorce is what’s best for her, that’s what I’ll do. I do thing a changed me is best for her. I hope I can convince her of that. If not, I’ll just have to get on with my life and be the best ex I can be.

Kids are 8 & 10. I know she’s concerned about the effect of a divorce on them just as I am. A stable family is critically important to both of us. That may be the only reason I still have a ring on my finger. I hope it’s enough to get some time to repair the harm I’ve done.


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## TXCiclista

Something of a side note: I want to talk to her about this, but one of the things I’ve realized I do is over-talk. Are these sorts of conversations ever acceptable to have by txt in the interests of (1) respecting space and (2) keeping it short and to the point (and giving her something to refer back to)? I have no problem doing it face-to-face, though. Anyone have experience with a thoughful txt that was the right move rather than appearing cowardly?


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## Yeswecan

TXCiclista said:


> I hope it’s enough to get some time to repair the harm I’ve done.


I'm getting a feeling your wife is giving you the time. You noted she was afraid of your anger issues and responses. If you truly change this and she feels safe now with talking about what she is truly thinking there is hope. My W was similar. Afraid of my reaction. I did some self help for my anger issues. I showed change. My wife opened up. Life was better and is getting better for both.

BTW, yelling at your wife is a form of abuse. I had to realize this myself. When I did...holy crap...did I feel like a jerk.


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## Mr. Nail

personofinterest said:


> Before you do the typical affair assumption thing, you should know something that many will not admit but that is ABSOLUTE FACT:
> 
> Women (and men) who have been repeatedly neglected and mistreated WILL choose to leave without an affair, and they have every right to do so. Let me say that again. The fact that your wife (or husband) has had enough of a marriage in which she (he) did not matter doesn't mean she (he) is cheating. There is a subset of "men" (and women) who think that it is impossible for any man (or Woman) to actually be a crappy enough husband (or wife) for the wife (or husband) to leave unless she (he) is cheating. These men (and women) are flat wrong.
> 
> I have no idea if your wife is cheating or not. I just want to point out that when a wife has enough, it isn't because she is evil for having a vagina.


I hope POI will excuse me for borrowing her post. The fact remains that when a person has been treated so poorly in a marriage they frequently act out in poor ways including but not limited to Cheating. The other relevant fact is that once a person begins cheating (even emotionally) it is typical for cheating persons to see the marriage in a much worse light than in fact it is. 

To be blunt, I'm not cheating, not even emotionally, And yet I struggle everyday facing the mess that is my marriage and home. I'm not leaving for precisely the reason that I don't have a soft (curvy) landing spot to leave to. 

Sooner or later sex will have something to do with marriage problems.


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## UpsideDownWorld11

Yeswecan said:


> UpsideDownWorld11 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The fact, that she won't even attempt marriage councelling is fairly telling to me. Its not like you can IC but not MC or MC and not IC... You can try and be her maid and butler but while its a good peace offering, I really doubt its going to go far in building her love emotions. Assumming she isn't cheating, you might try to isolate her. Log cabin in the mountains or something, case of wine, jacuzzi, find a sitter for the kids. Invite her and if she comes, you see where it takes you. If she declines, then its over. Get a lawyer and serve her.
> 
> 
> 
> Marriage counselors are nice but not always necessary. Two willing individuals is what is necessary.
> 
> He is not being a maid or butler. He is being a team member of the household and help running it.
> 
> Isolate her....is another way of saying, date your wife like you did before marriage. You should be taking her away. You should be having date nights just the two of you. It is the dating, care and attention that go you married in the first place. Why stop after the vow? It should not.
Click to expand...

Yea, MC isn't necessary but when its off the table but instead divorce mediation is on it, thats a bad sign. A sign that she isn't even open to the idea of not divorcing.

I would urge him not to get too inflated with hopium because the comedown is tough. Improving himself is a great start. Now, try to take her on a date, a getaway if possible, but if she refuses then I think it might be time to face the facts. Many times its just too late. No sense dragging your feet as roommates waiting on pins and needles for the papers to appear.


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## TXCiclista

Yeswecan said:


> Well sir, 7 years ago my wife threw out the D word. She was done. 100% done. She point blank told me to get help. My anger issues completely exhausted her. My inattention crushed her mentally( she felt ugly. Cried herself to sleep many nights after my reject) That revelation was soul crushing. Man, it was time for me to own my crap. So with that said, complete lasting change.
> 
> So, your W has papers at the ready from 3 years ago? It has been a long 3 years to not serve so that is a good sign. Yes, try and don't stop. If not for your own peace in the matter.


Thank you. That helps a great deal


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## TXCiclista

Yeswecan said:


> TXCiclista said:
> 
> 
> 
> I hope it’s enough to get some time to repair the harm I’ve done.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm getting a feeling your wife is giving you the time. You noted she was afraid of your anger issues and responses. If you truly change this and she feels safe now with talking about what she is truly thinking there is hope. My W was similar. Afraid of my reaction. I did some self help for my anger issues. I showed change. My wife opened up. Life was better and is getting better for both.
> 
> BTW, yelling at your wife is a form of abuse. I had to realize this myself. When I did...holy crap...did I feel like a jerk.
Click to expand...

I hope so too. And yes, I feel like pond scum right now. On more than one occasion I’ve thought “I’d divorce me too.”


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## Yeswecan

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Yea, MC isn't necessary but when its off the table but instead divorce mediation is on it, thats a bad sign. A sign that she isn't even open to the idea of not divorcing.
> 
> I would urge him not to get too inflated with hopium because the comedown is tough. Improving himself is a great start. Now, try to take her on a date, a getaway if possible, but if she refuses then I think it might be time to face the facts. Many times its just too late. No sense dragging your feet as roommates waiting on pins and needles for the papers to appear.


MC may be off the table because she may feel it is not effective. We don't know. Personally, I have very little faith in marriage counseling.

I agree that if she dragging her feet with a full intention of ending it, it is wrong. But, it does not appear she is dangling the paperwork over his head or leading him on.


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## TXCiclista

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> I would urge him not to get too inflated with hopium because the comedown is tough. Improving himself is a great start. Now, try to take her on a date, a getaway if possible, but if she refuses then I think it might be time to face the facts. Many times its just too late. No sense dragging your feet as roommates waiting on pins and needles for the papers to appear.


That’s entirely fair. I appreciate the honesty.


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## Casual Observer

TXCiclista said:


> Something of a side note: I want to talk to her about this, but one of the things I’ve realized I do is over-talk. Are these sorts of conversations ever acceptable to have by txt in the interests of (1) respecting space and (2) keeping it short and to the point (and giving her something to refer back to)? I have no problem doing it face-to-face, though. Anyone have experience with a thoughful txt that was the right move rather than appearing cowardly?


I think those of us who over-talk (raising my hand on this one!) might benefit most from marital counseling. A good counselor should make sure her side is heard and that no one party dominates the proceedings, either intentionally or through habit. And even if that does happen, at least your wife will see validation of her concerns through a 3rd party, a validation she might not feel is happening at home. Hopefully from this will come a feeling "We should have done this years ago" even though there's a subtext of "before it was too late."

Try to make sure the kids don't become pawns, used to try and keep the marriage together. The reality, of course, is that they are. But be really careful about even thinking that the kids give you any kind of leverage for staying together. If she picks up on that, or if she stays primarily for that reason after you've brought it up, I don't see happy years ahead.

It's encouraging that you want her to be happy. But- are you really willing to go down the road of discovering what that means to her? Doing so will likely accelerate the process.


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## Yeswecan

TXCiclista said:


> I hope so too. And yes, I feel like pond scum right now. On more than one occasion I’ve thought “I’d divorce me too.”


Been there man. I can honestly say that. Time is what is needed to show the change. The change is lasting. Keep at it. Stop, listen, acknowledge, understand and answer like a sane man. This is what I needed to learned to do.


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## TXCiclista

Casual Observer said:


> It's encouraging that you want her to be happy. But- are you really willing to go down the road of discovering what that means to her? Doing so will likely accelerate the process.


Willing, yes. It’s the skills I lack. I’m hoping counseling will help in that regard.


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## Yeswecan

Casual Observer said:


> I think those of us who over-talk (raising my hand on this one!) might benefit most from marital counseling. A good counselor should make sure her side is heard and that no one party dominates the proceedings, either intentionally or through habit. And even if that does happen, at least your wife will see validation of her concerns through a 3rd party, a validation she might not feel is happening at home. Hopefully from this will come a feeling "We should have done this years ago" even though there's a subtext of "before it was too late."


I concur here but would like to point out that it is time to shut up and listen. Do not start formulating responses before the others thoughts are completely said. In fact, it may be best to simply acknowledge and have not response at all. Own your crap. Advise how it will be fixed for good. A counselor is not always need for this if the one has the restraint to shut up and listen.
This is the approach I took. Understand my wife has others(female friends) who she talks with.


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## Yeswecan

TXCiclista said:


> Willing, yes. It’s the skills I lack. I’m hoping counseling will help in that regard.


Have your read The 5 Love Languages? Do you know what your W is?


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## TXCiclista

Yeswecan said:


> TXCiclista said:
> 
> 
> 
> Willing, yes. It’s the skills I lack. I’m hoping counseling will help in that regard.
> 
> 
> 
> Have your read The 5 Love Languages? Do you know what your W is?
Click to expand...

I haven’t and I don’t. I will look into that

EDIT : Actually I do know what my wife’s is (having done a quick Google): Words of Affirmation and Quality Time


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## Marduk

She has checked out of this marriage and no longer loves you. 

This wasn’t a warning shot. This wasn’t an attempt to get you to change. As far as she’s concerned, it’s over. 

And it sounds like her reasoning for wanting out is reasonable. 

Given that, my recommendation would be to say something like: “Wife, I haven’t done what I needed to do as a husband and as a consequence you don’t love me any more. I would like to give it another shot if you’re open to it, but out of respect for you if you just want out, I will understand, even though I still love you very much. However, if you’re willing to try, I will commit to X, Y, and Z - not just because I’m afraid to lose you but because I love you and you deserve it.”

If it’s over for her, you’re pushing on a rope, and it won’t help anyone to try to reconcile.


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## Yeswecan

TXCiclista said:


> I haven’t and I don’t. I will look into that
> 
> EDIT : Actually I do know what my wife’s is (having done a quick Google): *Words of Affirmation and Quality Time*


You have your assignment as it where.


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## Casual Observer

Yeswecan said:


> I concur here but would like to point out that it is time to shut up and listen. Do not start formulating responses before the others thoughts are completely said. In fact, it may be best to simply acknowledge and have not response at all. Own your crap. Advise how it will be fixed for good. A counselor is not always need for this if the one has the restraint to shut up and listen.
> This is the approach I took. Understand my wife has others(female friends) who she talks with.


Definitely. In sales, the best salespeople spend 20% of the time talking, 80% of the time listening. And guess what, we're all in sales. We might not be selling cars or bicycles or books at home, but we're selling our ideas, our willingness to learn and help someone, basically all communication is selling. You can have all the right ideas but if you can't communicate them in a way the other person can relate to or understand, you get nowhere. 

Something that happens when my wife and I have a serious conversation is that she gets upset at me if I don't have an instant response. If I have to think about something before talking, she assumes it's something I don't want to talk about or I'm trying to change the subject. What I'm trying to do is come up with a way that she can understand, not just hear words. She, on the other hand, will too-quickly say whatever's on her mind, in the way it sits in her mind. Then later she'll pretend to not own those words, which tend to be very harsh/blunt/direct/demeaning. She is the epitome of the tough customer. How does someone like me deal with someone like that? Carefully, because those words she spews aren't without cause or meaning. They're keys to understanding not just what's on her mind, but her inability to deal with them in a forward-going way. She keeps things locked up while I'm an open book.

So where does this go w/regards the OP? His anger issues in the past might have greatly frustrated his wife's attempts to make things better. She may simply have run out of patience. And here's the thing- the past 1, 5, even 10 years might be substantially improved, but the other person's focus and world view is based upon what happened before. Something got set in stone long before today. The OP fully realizes this. The problem is that his wife may not have nearly the patience that I have. I was in her shoes not that long ago. And those shoes did not in any way involve a PA or EA. They did involve thoughts that there must be something better out there for me, someone who would appreciate me more, flirt with me, look forward to going out with me. 

It took a massive upheaval/crisis to change my view and set us on a forward path again. I don't know if the wife's divorce preparations count because they've been in the works for so long, they're part of who and what she is. There was/is no crisis moment, no recognizable bottom, from which to move upward.


----------



## TXCiclista

^ very true.

I just had a chance to talk to her and have asked for time. She has an appt with her counselor tonight and will talk it over with her (along with many other things, apparently). I don’t know what to expect, but I suspect I’ll have a better sense of whether there’s hope or not before too much longer


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## wilson

Did you ever watch the movie "Groundhog Day"? For anyone who hasn't seen it (you should, btw), it's about a guy who lives the same day over and over and over and over etc. He wants to be with a woman but she doesn't like him. He realises that since he lives the same day over and over, he can learn a little bit more each day about what her perfect date would be like. He takes her on dates over and over until he figures out all the tricks of what to say and do to get her in the bedroom at the end of the date. But at that point, it all is so phony and forced that she has no interest in it. He does things like have a snowball fight because that's what worked in the past. He says the right things because he knows what she wants to hear. But it's all phony act.

That sort of thing can also go on in your situation. If you are just moulding yourself to what she wants so you can stay married, what's the point? Would it be better for each of you to find the person who you are better suited for? Someone who you don't feel the need to mould yourself into their image of a perfect partner.

In the movie, she finally falls for him when he becomes a good person for himself. He does things because he enjoys doing them, not because he's doing things to manipulate other people. That's part of your journey as well. If you are doing X, Y and Z because she wants you to do X, Y and Z, then it's a more artificial change. You should instead be trying to make yourself a better person because it's the right thing to do. Don't do it as a manipulation tactic to get people to act like you want. Rather, do it because it's the right thing and it's who you want to be.


----------



## Yeswecan

wilson said:


> Did you ever watch the movie "Groundhog Day"? For anyone who hasn't seen it (you should, btw), it's about a guy who lives the same day over and over and over and over etc. He wants to be with a woman but she doesn't like him. He realises that since he lives the same day over and over, he can learn a little bit more each day about what her perfect date would be like. He takes her on dates over and over until he figures out all the tricks of what to say and do to get her in the bedroom at the end of the date. But at that point, it all is so phony and forced that she has no interest in it. He does things like have a snowball fight because that's what worked in the past. He says the right things because he knows what she wants to hear. But it's all phony act.
> 
> That sort of thing can also go on in your situation. If you are just moulding yourself to what she wants so you can stay married, what's the point? Would it be better for each of you to find the person who you are better suited for? Someone who you don't feel the need to mould yourself into their image of a perfect partner.
> 
> In the movie, she finally falls for him when he becomes a good person for himself. He does things because he enjoys doing them, not because he's doing things to manipulate other people. That's part of your journey as well. If you are doing X, Y and Z because she wants you to do X, Y and Z, then it's a more artificial change. You should instead be trying to make yourself a better person because it's the right thing to do. Don't do it as a manipulation tactic to get people to act like you want. Rather, do it because it's the right thing and it's who you want to be.


His W wants/likes affirmation and quality time. Getting rid of the anger issues should be done anyway. Affirmation and quality time. This is not tasking at all. In fact, it appears the OP wants to do this and realizes that not doing it has cost him is marriage. There is no manipulation to spending quality time. Unless of course the OP does not care to. I do not get that sense here.


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## TXCiclista

Yeswecan said:


> His W wants/likes affirmation and quality time. Getting rid of the anger issues should be done anyway. Affirmation and quality time. This is not tasking at all. In fact, it appears the OP wants to do this and realizes that not doing it has cost him is marriage. There is no manipulation to spending quality time. Unless of course the OP does not care to. I do not get that sense here.


Right. In effect, the only "real" change I'm faced with is to stop thinking of myself all the time and start thinking of my wife. While the Groundhog Day comparison is good advice, this is not that (at least not the first part of the movie).


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## 3Xnocharm

She is done. Let her go and let you both have some dignity.


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## Openminded

Usually when we (women) say we're done, we've been through so much that we don't change our minds. But if your wife decides to give you a second chance then you need to really make it count because there won't be a third chance.


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## LimaTango

Oh man. I truly feel horrible for you.

My wife told me the same thing summer of 2018. I tried like hell to get her to change her mind for over a year. 

Nothing worked. But I was like you. Even a 1 in a million chance was worth the effort. But I could not effort our marriage back together. I did the "pick me dance" not knowing any better. I improved myself for myself as well. More volunteering. Going to the gym. Being super Dad whenever possible. So it wasn't all wasted effort. But my marriage is toast. Maybe I'll live long enough to have a new worst day... but right now it's the day she said the "divorce" word to me.

Look up "walk away wife" on google. I sincerely wish you better results than I achieved. But there aren't a whole lot of success stories after a wife says she's done. 

Personally, I don't think very highly of the walk away wife. They hide their feelings about the state of the marriage and aren't being honest with their husbands. So rather than giving you any ability to change certain behaviors, attitudes, etc... it's just they've decided divorce is the right path for them and that's the end of it. It's not how I would treat a relationship of this importance. 

So my advice is yes.... definitely do all you can to see if she will give the marriage another chance. Be prepared to put in some LONG TERM / permanent changes if you do get another shot. Anyone can fake changes for a few weeks. But the real test is when things appear back on solid ground and how do you keep from slipping into old habits? 

But if she's really done (and that would be my guess from what you've described), please get some individual counseling and the faster you can come to acceptance of her decision, the better off you'll be. It's an awful path to travel but a number of us on this forum have been there. You'll have all the stages of grief to go through before you get to acceptance. You'll want to limit the "denial" stage as much as you can.


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## lifeistooshort

I think its important to remember that many women try for a long time in the ways they know, but a lot of men don't hear anything short of "I'm leaving".

But women are usually not willing to throw this out until they're done.

So you have a communication issue. The idea that a walk away wife doesn't communicate her unhappiness is ridiculous. She just doesn't threaten to leave so a lot of husbands don't hear.

And if you have a guy with anger issues it's even worse, because mens anger is often scary to women. Men are bigger and more powerful....a wife who's afraid of you isn't telling you anything.

In addition, when a guy all of a sudden "gets it" when his wife wants out he's sending the message that its not really about her....it's about his life blowing up. Treating his wife well wasn't a priority until his life was going to blow up. 

I got the same thing last year. My ex knew I was unhappy...I'd told him many times, dragged him to counseling l, cried in front of him. But as long as he thought I wasn't going anywhere he was a nasty bully.

But low and behold when I wanted a divorce he begged, asked for time, he all of a sudden "got it".....but the truth was he was worried about his life blowing up, not how he'd treated me.

This may not be the case for many men but it is how its received. IMO your wife seeing that you understand this dynamic might be the key to getting her invested again, if its at all possible.


----------



## TXCiclista

Openminded said:


> Usually when we (women) say we're done, we've been through so much that we don't change our minds. But if your wife decides to give you a second chance then you need to really make it count because there won't be a third chance.


Agreed.



LimaTango said:


> Look up "walk away wife" on google. I sincerely wish you better results than I achieved. But there aren't a whole lot of success stories after a wife says she's done. ... You'll want to limit the "denial" stage as much as you can.


I have and, for what it's worth, I'm prepared to accept this. If she says "OK, time to go to the divorce mediator" I'll know it's over and start moving on the best I can. At the moment, however, it seems like there's that small chance. Until I've got solid confirmation otherwise (so far, the conversations have not been "difinitive," if you will), I've got hope. Once it's truly clear that this is her choice, I'll go ahead and move on from hope to acceptance.



lifeistooshort said:


> I think its important to remember that many women try for a long time in the ways they know, but a lot of men don't hear anything short of "I'm leaving".
> 
> But women are usually not willing to throw this out until they're done.
> 
> So you have a communication issue. The idea that a walk away wife doesn't communicate her unhappiness is ridiculous. She just doesn't threaten to leave so a lot of husbands don't hear.
> 
> And if you have a guy with anger issues it's even worse, because mens anger is often scary to women. Men are bigger and more powerful....a wife who's afraid of you isn't telling you anything.
> 
> In addition, when a guy all of a sudden "gets it" when his wife wants out he's sending the message that its not really about her....it's about his life blowing up. Treating his wife well wasn't a priority until his life was going to blow up.
> 
> I got the same thing last year. My ex knew I was unhappy...I'd told him many times, dragged him to counseling l, cried in front of him. But as long as he thought I wasn't going anywhere he was a nasty bully.
> 
> But low and behold when I wanted a divorce he begged, asked for time, he all of a sudden "got it".....but the truth was he was worried about his life blowing up, not how he'd treated me.
> 
> This may not be the case for many men but it is how its received. IMO your wife seeing that you understand this dynamic might be the key to getting her invested again, if its at all possible.


I appreciate the advice and agree with much of it. If you don't mind if I ask for a bit more: I'm struggling with how much to say in all of this. The typical advice is "give her space" and "be positive," but conversations like this have to happen somehow (and my wife is a sensitive person and could well take me trying not to talk about the divorce as just more neglect of how she feels). So far, the best approach I've got is "Can I say a few things about what's going on," try to get it out without babbling or floundering too much, and then leave it at that unless she wants to talk. I can't imagine nightly conversations like this are a good idea, but I also don't want to delay so long that I miss whatever opportunity I might have. (Quick edit: I do wish my wife had tried to drag me to counseling. That would have been something that would have broken through. She only ever went for myself, and now I'm kicking myself for not realizing why)


----------



## lovelygirl

Giving too much space could be taken for inconsideration, carelessness or indifference. So be careful with the "space" you give her. You don't want to go overboard with it. 

During this time make sure to be there for her and talk to her about your feelings. That's what I'd consider being important. If I was in your wife's situation, I'd want my H to be close to me as much as possible and communicate to me with words and actions, to prove me that he's heading towards a change for better. 

Giving space is like walking away. If she LITERALLY tells you to give her space, then you might be thinking of leaving her alone for a while, but at the same time don't forget to show her with actions that you are improving yourself for your own self and for the marriage.


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## Yeswecan

TXCiclista said:


> I appreciate the advice and agree with much of it. If you don't mind if I ask for a bit more: I'm struggling with how much to say in all of this. The typical advice is "give her space" and "be positive," but conversations like this have to happen somehow (and my wife is a sensitive person and could well take me trying not to talk about the divorce as just more neglect of how she feels). So far, the best approach I've got is "Can I say a few things about what's going on," try to get it out without babbling or floundering too much, and then leave it at that unless she wants to talk. I can't imagine nightly conversations like this are a good idea, but I also don't want to delay so long that I miss whatever opportunity I might have. (Quick edit: I do wish my wife had tried to drag me to counseling. That would have been something that would have broken through. She only ever went for myself, and now I'm kicking myself for not realizing why)


Do not talk and babble on with what is going on. You know what is going on. You run your day to day with your W as if nothing is going on. You run your day to what you believe puts your W first and rectifies what you have not been doing. Does anyone want to talk about their problem(in the marriage) on a consistent daily basis or would they rather show one another what it could be like without all the talking about what is trying to be fixed in the first place? For me, I would pick what this marriage could look like if both but in 100%. Marriage is not really 50/50. It is 100% from both. As it stands now you put in 100%. I suspect your W is not there yet because she probably feels this is a fools errand. What you are doing will probably not last is what she is thinking. You will probably fly off the handle like yo have done in the past. Prove her wrong. You can change you. You can not change anyone else. But, try you must. (sorry Yoda quote)


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## ConanHub

Can you two at least be friendly? Do you ever joke and laugh?

Do the kids joke and laugh?

Is it light enough in your home for laughter?


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## Yeswecan

ConanHub said:


> Can you two at least be friendly? Do you ever joke and laugh?
> 
> Do the kids joke and laugh?
> 
> Is it light enough in your home for laughter?


This^^^^ Make the day to day as you wish your day to day to be. Stress free, laughing and plans to do things together that lay ahead. Something to look forward too. Keep this up. It gets contagious.


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## 3Xnocharm

lovelygirl said:


> During this time make sure to be there for her and talk to her about your feelings. That's what I'd consider being important. If I was in your wife's situation, I'd want my H to be close to me as much as possible and communicate to me with words and actions, to prove me that he's heading towards a change for better.


This approach will backfire. To be honest, at this point, she doesnt give half a damn about his feelings. She isnt going to respond well to him going on and on about how he feels and what he wants. I have been in the wife's situation and the last thing I wanted was him being close to me, trying to communicate and prove himself. I just wanted him away from me, and the harder he tried, the more I resented it.


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## lifeistooshort

3Xnocharm said:


> This approach will backfire. To be honest, at this point, she doesnt give half a damn about his feelings. She isnt going to respond well to him going on and on about how he feels and what he wants. I have been in the wife's situation and the last thing I wanted was him being close to me, trying to communicate and prove himself. I just wanted him away from me, and the harder he tried, the more I resented it.



Me too. In fact, I know it sounds terrible but i resented my ex wanting to talk about his feelings when in my mind he never gave a rat's behind about mine. He was quite nasty when I expressed anything that made him uncomfortable.

It's hard to come back from this.

I do like the suggestion of keeping things light and positive.


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## personofinterest

"Walkaway Wife" is a term lazy, neglectful, arrogant husbands made up to try to blame their wives when the wives finally can't take it anymore and leave.


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## 3Xnocharm

personofinterest said:


> "Walkaway Wife" is a term lazy, neglectful, arrogant husbands made up to try to blame their wives when the wives finally can't take it anymore and leave.


This. Most times she has talked herself blue in the face before getting to this point.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti

personofinterest said:


> "Walkaway Wife" is a term lazy, neglectful, arrogant husbands made up to try to blame their wives when the wives finally can't take it anymore and leave.


I really don't know the actual origin of the term, but based on what I've seen, I always took it to be the term explaining to arrogant husbands what just happened... or what will happen if they don't start paying attention. 

It's always seemed, at least to me, to be a dire warning that once she finally looses the connection, it ain't comin' back and if that happens, you, sir, have zero grounds for complaint as you created, and perpetuated, the environment where this may happen.


----------



## Yeswecan

3Xnocharm said:


> This approach will backfire. To be honest, at this point, she doesnt give half a damn about his feelings. She isnt going to respond well to him going on and on about how he feels and what he wants. I have been in the wife's situation and the last thing I wanted was him being close to me, trying to communicate and prove himself. I just wanted him away from me, and the harder he tried, the more I resented it.





lifeistooshort said:


> Me too. In fact, I know it sounds terrible but i resented my ex wanting to talk about his feelings when in my mind he never gave a rat's behind about mine. He was quite nasty when I expressed anything that made him uncomfortable.
> 
> It's hard to come back from this.
> 
> I do like the suggestion of keeping things light and positive.


This is why I suggested the day to day is not spent talking about feelings, D or mediation nonsense. The day to day is spent working towards what a marriage may look like if one changes his/her ways and communicates like they have sense. Stop with any angry responses to usually the simplest of things. Be in agreement on everything. Learn to compromise.


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## TXCiclista

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I really don't know the actual origin of the term, but based on what I've seen, I always took it to be the term explaining to arrogant husbands what just happened... or what will happen if they don't start paying attention.
> 
> It's always seemed, at least to me, to be a dire warning that once she finally looses the connection, it ain't comin' back and if that happens, you, sir, have zero grounds for complaint as you created, and perpetuated, the environment where this may happen.


This is how I understood it too, but I didn't even know the phrase existed until a week or two ago. I'm happy to defer to those here who see it in a derogative way, however. Regardless, it's my fault she's at this point, not hers.


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## BluesPower

personofinterest said:


> "Walkaway Wife" is a term lazy, neglectful, arrogant husbands made up to try to blame their wives when the wives finally can't take it anymore and leave.


You know what, don't you think we all should do better than this? 

I know there are more than enough Men out there that are clueless, and maybe don't care, or really don't know how to communicate at all...

Just like there are woman that are clueless, maybe don't care or really don't know how to communicate at all. 

But male or female, we all married them, so maybe we are not as smart as we think we are???

I'm just saying that it goes both ways...


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## Tex X

personofinterest said:


> "Walkaway Wife" is a term lazy, neglectful, arrogant husbands made up to try to blame their wives when the wives finally can't take it anymore and leave.


Maybe sometimes but not always. Some women can't reconcile the fact that they have anything wrong with them and rather than dig in to their contribution to the problems in a relationship, they leave and jump into a new relationship where everything is just rosy, and the ex husband was really the one causing all the problems so they feel justified. I've been there and done that with my ex wife, so I take exception to your blanket statement because that wasn't the case with me at all.


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## Affaircare

@TXCiclista,

You are in a world of hurt, my friend, brought on by your own actions. I can really identify with some of the things said by @lifeistooshort because what happened for me, in the case of my exH and I, is that I very much wanted him to give a hoot about me, about what his hurtful words and actions did to me, about "us", and about the fact that his anger was slowly chipping away at my love for him (envision the Rock of Gibraltar slowly chip-chip-chip being chipped away with each harsh interaction and each mean word...until finally it just fell into the sea). For a long, long time I HOPED he cared, and I WISHED he would "get it" and make some sort of effort that gave me some hope. But you know what he did? He made promises and didn't keep them. At the time, I would believe his promises and be all happy, only to be crushed again when he went right back to what he was doing...only each time even more was chipped away. Finally I learned that what he was saying wasn't worth the weight of the air coming out of his mouth, and that all I should "listen to" was his ACTIONS. 

So sir, I think there is a very slim chance at this happening...but if there is the slimmest of slim chances here's what I would recommend: don't say a word to her. Seriously, don't promise (she possibly doesn't believe anything you say anymore), and don't do that whole "Look at how much I've changed!" thing (SMH). Nope, just act. ACT different. ACT caring. ACT interested ... in her, her life, her thoughts, and her feelings. Let your ACTIONS speak louder than any words ever could. 

Next, I would recommend that you slow the heck down. It took you 18 years to wear her down to this position, and it may take you 18 years before she finally believes the change is real, so what are you rushing for? Is it because YOU are lonely or because YOU want the marriage? Then it's all about you, and not about her...and you just told her you'd be thinking of her from now on! LOL So just accept it, this is not going to turn around in a month or even a season--you are in this for the LONG HAUL and it will likely be more than a year before she even thinks about considering you. After a year of consistently seeing you behave differently, she MAY give it a thought....MAY. If it's any less than a year, then it was all just a ploy to get her back because YOU want her, not because you changed. And just so you know, change means forever. It means that you will never, EVER go back to "the way it was" or be with her that way again...EVER. 

Really, if I were to give you my very best advice...my opinion, really...I would tell you that the best thing you could do right now is to stop doing anything to get your wife back, and instead, start looking HARD at the man in the mirror and putting serious effort into working on yourself and dealing with your own issues. Learn how to express anger in a healthy way. Learn how to be a better MAN. Learn about your own personality and what you need to work on and where you fall short, and then REALLY actually do the work to think and act differently. Don't just put on a show and make a bunch of promises to get what you want. If she has been hurt by you and endured your anger and finally just got worn down and has nothing left, are you willing to think OF HER and let her go so she is not hurt any more (even if it hurts you)? Cuz here's the thing, if love her, you want what is best FOR HER...and you may not be good for her, or make her a better person, or allow her to grow and become the woman SHE is. Love her enough to think of her and what SHE needs. M'kay?

You may want to look at the 180 in my signature. It is probably reasonable for you to detach some at this time, because the feeling I get from you is desperation. Now you may say, "But how do we repair the marriage if I detach?!!!" Well, here's the thing: right now it's in ruins. It's been decimated. So now the decision has to be made about rebuilding, and the way to rebuild is to not build what you just destroyed...build something better, stronger, healthier. And to be better and healthier, you are going to need to be the best YOU. That's where I believe your attention needs to lie right now.


----------



## TXCiclista

Affaircare said:


> ...And just so you know, change means forever. It means that you will never, EVER go back to "the way it was" or be with her that way again...EVER. ...


Thanks for the advice. I agree with all it, so have only snipped that one part because that's the part I'm working on most right now. If 18 years is what it takes, 18 years is what I'll give (and beyond that, ofc).

----

For general information: we talked last night. I kept it as short as I reasonably could. No begging or pleading, just me trying to own the pain I've caused and her talking about how much anger she has from years of not being important. She expressed thanks for some things I've done lately (getting an appointment with a counselor, proactively sleeping on the sofa so she has the bedroom to herself at night). At the moment, it seems like I have some time. That could change tomorrow, and if it does, I'll accept it. We'll see. The support and hard answers I've gotten here are appreciated

One small point: I get the sense from a few posts that this is a case of me promising to change 'again.' Unfortunately (fortunately?), it's not. This is a case of me thinking that things were pretty OK for 18 years. There have been communication barriers for a long time that I have not realized because of a terrible mixture of self-involvement and my nature to be an extremely over-rational thinker ('she hasn't said anything about things being bad, so things must not be bad' or 'I asked her is she was OK four times and she said she was, so she's OK.'). e.g., when she complained about the clutter in the house, that was her trying to tell me something deeper. Or when she went to the bedroom to read, I took it as a sign she wanted to be alone, not that she _was _alone. I was just too self-involved to notice. This is possibly the first time I've ever told her I was going change, primarily bc I didn't realize I needed to (and now that I see what I've done, I don't how I can _*not*_ change. This is not who I ever thought I would be). Anger issues are the only thing I've promised to fix before and I have--the change after starting diabetes meds was nothing short of miraculous, and she regularly comments on it. Maybe that's my only hope in all of this: I _haven't_ been the husband who says "I'll change" and then goes right back to the way things were. Of course, that means I've just been something worse: the husband who didn't realize change was needed. Sigh.


----------



## dadstartingover

TXCiclista said:


> No, no affair. I mean it's _technically _possible, but she's more likely to grow wings than take that route.


Never heard that one before...


----------



## farsidejunky

TXCiclista said:


> If you don't mind if I ask for a bit more: I'm struggling with how much to say in all of this. The typical advice is "give her space" and "be positive," but conversations like this have to happen somehow (and my wife is a sensitive person and could well take me trying not to talk about the divorce as just more neglect of how she feels). So far, the best approach I've got is "Can I say a few things about what's going on," try to get it out without babbling or floundering too much, and then leave it at that unless she wants to talk. I can't imagine nightly conversations like this are a good idea, but I also don't want to delay so long that I miss whatever opportunity I might have. (Quick edit: I do wish my wife had tried to drag me to counseling. That would have been something that would have broken through. She only ever went for myself, and now I'm kicking myself for not realizing why)


What you do is incredibly simple.

You identify the type of man you want to be. 

Cater to your wife as what feels okay to you. 

Meet her needs in the ways and quantities that feel right to you.

I know this sounds self-centered, but there is a reason.

Why, you ask?

Because making yourself into something you are not is a surefire recipe for returning to the same-old, same-old as soon as you get comfortable again. 

You make changes for you.

You become better for you.

You take life by the horns for you.

Then...and only then...will the changes stick.

And...if she doesn't like the man you have become, or can't get past the historical hurts, then accept it and let her go, because you are not compatible. 

Bottom line: if your process is sound, your results will be what they should be.

If you focus on the results only, along with any expedient way to get you there, you will fail both as a man AND a husband. 



Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## TXCiclista

farsidejunky said:


> What you do is incredibly simple.
> 
> You identify the type of man you want to be.
> 
> Cater to your wife as what feels okay to you.
> 
> Meet her needs in the ways and quantities that feel right to you.
> 
> I know this sounds self-centered, but there is a reason.
> 
> Why, you ask?
> 
> Because making yourself into something you are not is a surefire recipe for returning to the same-old, same-old as soon as you get comfortable again.
> 
> You make changes for you.
> 
> You become better for you.
> 
> You take life by the horns for you.
> 
> Then...and only then...will the changes stick.
> 
> And...if she doesn't like the man you have become, or can't get past the historical hurts, then accept it and let her go, because you are not compatible.
> 
> Bottom line: if your process is sound, your results will be what they should be.
> 
> If you focus on the results only, along with any expedient way to get you there, you will fail both as a man AND a husband.


Well put. Thank you


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## UpsideDownWorld11

personofinterest said:


> "Walkaway Wife" is a term lazy, neglectful, arrogant husbands made up to try to blame their wives when the wives finally can't take it anymore and leave.


Or it could be rooted in the statistic that women initiate divorce more than 2/3's of the time and 90% by college educated women.

I guarantee you atleast half of those are men that don't fit into that category POI laid out, atleast not intentionally. Like the wide swath of women that don't say what it is they want (or what they mean) and then expecting men to just 'get it'. You tell me X is the problem, but it's really Y. Or you want X, but that really means Y. Every miscommunication is another brick in the wall. So, the walls go up higher over time. 

This is the plight of the OP, his wife's wall is up, and he had better become an olympic gold medalist in quick order to get over that wall. My guess is its too little too late for her and she is already checked out and mentally moved on. 

It often coincides with the 7 year itch...your child starts reaching some level of independence (school age) so time to fly the nest for a better opportunity. But usually thats far more nefarious than miscommunication.


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## phillybeffandswiss

Interesting. In my mind “walk away wife” is equivalent to a “dead beat dad.” All of the fun, none of the responsibility. Now, I know 2 different definitions.

It’s why I don’t think I’ve used it because I think one thread I read fits my criteria. 

Thanks.


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## aine

LimaTango said:


> Oh man. I truly feel horrible for you.
> 
> My wife told me the same thing summer of 2018. I tried like hell to get her to change her mind for over a year.
> 
> Nothing worked. But I was like you. Even a 1 in a million chance was worth the effort. But I could not effort our marriage back together. I did the "pick me dance" not knowing any better. I improved myself for myself as well. More volunteering. Going to the gym. Being super Dad whenever possible. So it wasn't all wasted effort. But my marriage is toast. Maybe I'll live long enough to have a new worst day... but right now it's the day she said the "divorce" word to me.
> 
> Look up "walk away wife" on google. I sincerely wish you better results than I achieved. But there aren't a whole lot of success stories after a wife says she's done.
> 
> Personally, I don't think very highly of the walk away wife. They hide their feelings about the state of the marriage and aren't being honest with their husbands. So rather than giving you any ability to change certain behaviors, attitudes, etc... it's just they've decided divorce is the right path for them and that's the end of it. It's not how I would treat a relationship of this importance.
> 
> if you actually knew what a walk away wife was you would also know that the woman has been raising issues in the marriage for years but H tunes her out as a nag. She gives up and sees no hope. Because she has stopped “nagging” H thinks all is well. Then H acts in horror when the D word is mentioned and she is done. Women are born talkers, if men listened they wold know. But because of entitlement or taken for grantedness many don’t
> 
> So my advice is yes.... definitely do all you can to see if she will give the marriage another chance. Be prepared to put in some LONG TERM / permanent changes if you do get another shot. Anyone can fake changes for a few weeks. But the real test is when things appear back on solid ground and how do you keep from slipping into old habits?
> 
> But if she's really done (and that would be my guess from what you've described), please get some individual counseling and the faster you can come to acceptance of her decision, the better off you'll be. It's an awful path to travel but a number of us on this forum have been there. You'll have all the stages of grief to go through before you get to acceptance. You'll want to limit the "denial" stage as much as you can.


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## aine

Michelle Wiener-Davis coined this term based on research I believe.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/divorce-busting/200803/the-walkaway-wife-syndrome


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## EleGirl

@TXCiclista

This can be turned around. The best advice I can give you is to suggest some books that I think are the best advice out there. They are written by Steve Harley. Here's a list of the books..... read them in the order listed.

*"Surviving an Affair"* - You say that you don't think that there is an affair. However, this book can still help. It talks about what causes a person to get to the point your wife is at. A lot of people get to that point and never have an affair. They just leave their marriage. This book will explain what's going on with her and what you need to be doing to turn things around.

After that book, you need to learn what a good marriage/relationship looks like. So these books do that.

*"Love Busters"* - What you have been doing is called "love busters". It's the things that bust, or kill, the love. Typically marriages die from many small "love busters". What you need to do is to identify the love busters and stop doing them.

*"His Needs, Her Needs"* - After you have stopped the love busters, then you need to identify and meet her emotional needs. You need to find out how she needs her needs met and then do that.

Now in a good marriage, would identify love busters and both of you would stop them. And the two of you would work on identifying and meeting each other's emotional needs. But you are going to have to take the first steps here. It does sound like that's what you are doing, so that's good. But at some point she should also read the books and the two of you should do the work together to that these two books say to do.


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## aquarius1

Had this problem for YEARS. Last year i consulted a lawyer. I was done.

My point?
Go to IC. Work on yourself. Gym etc.
You honestly cant be to blame for everything, dont patronize her with gushing. Be mindful and consistent. Date her. Touch her. Dont make it about your need to connect right now. Just let it be about her.
At the same time, she has to realize that you have needs/rights too. Simply be the best YOU that you can be. For everyone’s sake.

Shes afraid that you are going to go back to the old you. Make sure that doesnt happen. Growth will make you a better person.
I threatened divorce to shock him into understanding how serious i was about how unhappy i was.

Every person is different. Some prefer face to face. I prefer texting. I get less triggered. True feelings come out.

Read the books mentioned. Start the work yourself since you are the only one whos behaviour you can control


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## Affaircare




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