# Not sure how to tell me wife about new fetish. (updated with information from the talk.)



## EssexUKMale (Jan 13, 2022)

So we started practicing BDSM taking turns who doms and who subs and we got very far quite extreme. We then tried swinging. I found I really do not get off much with the other woman. But it drives me crazy with lust and a arousing type of jealousy her being with other men. Like we would swing I would be having a great time. The poor other woman thinking she’s getting me off. But really it was watching my wife doing it for me. My wife and I have amazing trust. And even tho I get jealous I love it. Because of trust we have.

Update. So had the talk. I even used 1 or 2 lines that was suggested to me. Was very positive. But also shocked me in a what that really boosted my confidence and ego.

So we spent the day out with our son nice family day. Our son crashed out and went to bed early. (The little man decided he was to tired lol. So he went to bed a hour ago.) And I started talking with my wife about this right away.

My wife told me point blank she has zero interest in playing solo. And any man who tried to push for solo play can be shown the door. She reminded me we have done separate room swinging a couple times. And she hated it. With out me there she doesn’t fill safe. Even with guys who we swooped with many times.

She told me she had actually noticed me watching her more and more lately when we swing. And that me watching her and getting turned on is what really got her going. She loves when I have a healthy level of jealousy and when I look at her full of lust. She actually loves the idea of it being a thing where she preforms for me.

She did say however. She really loves seeing me with women just as much. So she has asked if we can still play with couples. And also still have threesomes with another woman. I said of course. I did how ever ask if she would be interested in her just playing with another woman wile I watch sometimes. She said that actually sounds really hot.

She finally told me she would love the idea of me and another guy both playing with her. Spit roasting her/DP that kinda stuff.

So our new agreement is for our swinging to just have more options. Sometimes a full swop with another couple. MFF Threesomes. MFM threesomes with no male on male contact. Me watching her with a guy. Me watching her with another woman.


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## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

EssexUKMale said:


> So we started practicing BDSM taking turns who doms and who subs and we got very far quite extreme. We then tried swinging. I found I really do not get off much with the other woman. But it drives me crazy with lust and a arousing type of jealousy her being with other men. Like we would swing I would be having a great time. The poor other woman thinking she’s getting me off. But really it was watching my wife doing it for me. My wife and I have amazing trust. And even tho I get jealous I love it. Because of trust we have.


Try the cuckold lifestyle, no need for the other woman it seems. Good luck.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Sounds like you've already indulged in this fetish with her, but you don't know how to tell her about it? That doesn't make sense. Am I missing something?


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## EssexUKMale (Jan 13, 2022)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Sounds like you've already indulged in this fetish with her, but you don't know how to tell her about it? That doesn't make sense. Am I missing something?


No we only done full swoops with other couples.


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## EssexUKMale (Jan 13, 2022)

OnTheFly said:


> Try the cuckold lifestyle, no need for the other woman it seems. Good luck.


I would be up for that. But I still enjoy doming her sexually to when it’s my turn


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## EssexUKMale (Jan 13, 2022)

OnTheFly said:


> Try the cuckold lifestyle, no need for the other woman it seems. Good luck.


How do I even bring up cuckolding?


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## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

EssexUKMale said:


> How do I even bring up cuckolding?


Good question!


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

EssexUKMale said:


> No we only done full swoops with other couples.


I see, so you only want another man involved, not a couple. You seemed to have no trouble talking about getting into swinging. Why not just tell her this?


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## EssexUKMale (Jan 13, 2022)

BigDaddyNY said:


> I see, so you only want another man involved, not a couple. You seemed to have no trouble talking about getting into swinging. Why not just tell her this?


My worry is she will panic and think I’m saying she’s a cheat or something. She worries sometimes about boundaries. And can over think if she’s doing something wrong. So when trying new things we always agree anything we try is trial and error


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

EssexUKMale said:


> I would be up for that. But I still enjoy doming her sexually to when it’s my turn


then you want something called a Hotwife lifestyle. or possibly stag/vixen. 
there are many variations.

there are a number of threads here that basically say "we tried swinging, and X and Y disasterous thing happened. now we are divorced". So really think this thru. Also, discussing up front the boundaries of the relationship keeps from bruising egos. Like who picks her men? Her alone, the two of you?
Can she do men in your marital bed?
Does she have to tell you before she hooks up?
Do you have to be in the room, what if she takes on a full time lover and wants you out of the room?


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

since you have been swinging already, discussing shifting it to only Hotwifing would be relatively easy.
You will want to tell her how absolutely hot it makes you to see her with another man.
and...be prepared, she may not want to do it! you really do not want to force her if she is not into it.


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## EssexUKMale (Jan 13, 2022)

Talker67 said:


> then you want something called a Hotwife lifestyle. or possibly stag/vixen.
> there are many variations.
> 
> there are a number of threads here that basically say "we tried swinging, and X and Y disasterous thing happened. now we are divorced". So really think this thru. Also, discussing up front the boundaries of the relationship keeps from bruising egos. Like who picks her men? Her alone, the two of you?
> ...


To be honest swinging worked great for us. We are very secure our relationship is based on trust and communication. My worry is she might fill bad I don’t want other women. We kinda agree anything 1 can do the other can do. Anything a boundary for 1 the other respects


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## EssexUKMale (Jan 13, 2022)

Talker67 said:


> since you have been swinging already, discussing shifting it to only Hotwifing would be relatively easy.
> You will want to tell her how absolutely hot it makes you to see her with another man.
> and...be prepared, she may not want to do it! you really do not want to force her if she is not into it.


And of course if she’s says that’s fine to. I still got the memories lol


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Have you tried hotwife? Then you could maybe jerk off in the corner while bulls run a train on your SO?


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## EssexUKMale (Jan 13, 2022)

Talker67 said:


> then you want something called a Hotwife lifestyle. or possibly stag/vixen.
> there are many variations.
> 
> there are a number of threads here that basically say "we tried swinging, and X and Y disasterous thing happened. now we are divorced". So really think this thru. Also, discussing up front the boundaries of the relationship keeps from bruising egos. Like who picks her men? Her alone, the two of you?
> ...


To be honest we are close to limitless only a few. When I’m Dom she couldn’t play with others. But when she’s Dom I’d probably be up for trying anything. We kinda use a trial and error system. Try it if we like it great if we don’t oh well. If just of us doesn’t like some oh well we got a memory of trying it lol


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## EssexUKMale (Jan 13, 2022)

ccpowerslave said:


> Have you tried hotwife? Then you could maybe jerk off in the corner while bulls run a train on your SO?


I think I’d rather just not masturbate and wait my turn. We always go a round just us when we are alone again.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

EssexUKMale said:


> I think I’d rather just not masturbate and wait my turn. We always go a round just us when we are alone again.


That sounds good for you!


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

EssexUKMale said:


> How do I even bring up cuckolding?


 By telling her and talking about it with her honesty.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

EssexUKMale said:


> To be honest swinging worked great for us. We are very secure our relationship is based on trust and communication. My worry is she might fill bad I don’t want other women. We kinda agree anything 1 *can* do the other *can* do. Anything a boundary for 1 the other respects


Key word here. "Can". Simply because you can do it, doesn't mean that you have to. You can bed other women because she beds other men, but you should not feel pressured to. You are not violating a boundary when you don't have sex with another woman. You want to take care not to mixed them up.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

EssexUKMale said:


> So we started practicing BDSM taking turns who doms and who subs and we got very far quite extreme. We then tried swinging. I found I really do not get off much with the other woman. But it drives me crazy with lust and a arousing type of jealousy her being with other men. Like we would swing I would be having a great time. The poor other woman thinking she’s getting me off. But really it was watching my wife doing it for me. My wife and I have amazing trust. And even tho I get jealous I love it. Because of trust we have.


Having gone through the other post, something to keep in mind is that cuckold and hot wife are two different, albeit similar, things. Usually with the cuckold, there is a humiliation factor involved, at least as far as doing it for kink/fetish goes. What you seem to be describing would be closer to hot wife/voyeurism.

As far as how, just tell her, especially since you two are doing explorations. "Hey honey, I've noticed that I am getting more excited by watching you with other men, than I am being with other women. Maybe we should try with just you bedding another guy while I watch, and see how that plays out." And there is all kinds of variations to this. Watching openly, from secret, taped, etc. Granted, if you are doing taping or secret, you need consent that you will do so, even if the other man agrees that he won't know when or if on any given occasion he will be watched in secret.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

She is already having sex with other men so I have no idea why you think she would be worried by carrying on doing that. 
If you had a faithful marriage then of course she may freak out and be very hurt and rightly so.


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

Isn't "Dogging" a big thing over there in the UK?

You can sit in the park and watch her with other men....


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

What is your actual concern and question here? You already see each other and speak to each other at some point in the day right? And you're able to talk about whips and chains and hanging from the ceiling and you are already hooking up with other couples.....and finding a single guy to participate in this 42.5 kazillion times easier than finding a couple where everyone clicks...... so what is your actual concern here??????

Why didn't you do this last night?


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## EssexUKMale (Jan 13, 2022)

maquiscat said:


> Having gone through the other post, something to keep in mind is that cuckold and hot wife are two different, albeit similar, things. Usually with the cuckold, there is a humiliation factor involved, at least as far as doing it for kink/fetish goes. What you seem to be describing would be closer to hot wife/voyeurism.
> 
> As far as how, just tell her, especially since you two are doing explorations. "Hey honey, I've noticed that I am getting more excited by watching you with other men, than I am being with other women. Maybe we should try with just you bedding another guy while I watch, and see how that plays out." And there is all kinds of variations to this. Watching openly, from secret, taped, etc. Granted, if you are doing taping or secret, you need consent that you will do so, even if the other man agrees that he won't know when or if on any given occasion he will be watched in secret.


Actually think your right about voyeurism. Because best way I can put it is. I’m genuinely more attracted to my wife then any other woman. Of course I do find other women attractive. But generally put my wife number 1. Watching her with the guy was kinda like watching my favourite porn start performing. We are going out with our son as a family today so think I’m going to bring it up tonight. Your suggestion Hey honey, I've noticed that I am getting more excited by watching you with other men, than I am being with other women. Maybe we should try with just you bedding another guy while I watch, and see how that plays out is actually kinda how we talk anyway. So think I will be stealing this line.


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## EssexUKMale (Jan 13, 2022)

Talker67 said:


> Isn't "Dogging" a big thing over there in the UK?
> 
> You can sit in the park and watch her with other men....


Depends where you live and time of year


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## EssexUKMale (Jan 13, 2022)

oldshirt said:


> What is your actual concern and question here? You already see each other and speak to each other at some point in the day right? And you're able to talk about whips and chains and hanging from the ceiling and you are already hooking up with other couples.....and finding a single guy to participate in this 42.5 kazillion times easier than finding a couple where everyone clicks...... so what is your actual concern here??????
> 
> Why didn't you do this last night?


I posted when she had gone to sleep. My worry is they it will bother me that I’m not interested in doing it both ways. And everything else we can’t both do or neither of us do it.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

It's good that you and your wife have an amazing level of trust. What happens when (not if) she decides to get some on the side without you there to get your jollies?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

EssexUKMale said:


> I posted when she had gone to sleep. My worry is they it will bother me that I’m not interested in doing it both ways. And everything else we can’t both do or neither of us do it.



I'll address this in two parts. 

First part I'll offer some input on your actual question on how to bring this up. 

Second part with be my unsolicited thoughts on the whole thing in general and what some of the potential risks and dangers are. 

As far as how to broach it, the least invasive way to initiate such a subject is to start with the phrase, "what would your thoughts on *__* be?" or "Since we have been doing *____*, have you ever thought of doing *____*?"

Then keep your yap shut and really listen to what she is saying. And also ask her clarifying questions so you have a thorough understanding on her thoughts. 

Once you thoroughly understand her thoughts, if it sounds like something she would at least consider, then you can say that you've noticed that a big part of your excitement and enjoyment has come from watching her with other dudes and then the "Reclaimation" sex that you two have afterwards and that if she would be interested in doing some kind of Hot Wife or even a MFM threeway, you'd be interested in trying that out and would she be interested in giving it a whirl. 

It's really not a huge leap from what you're doing now. But what it is doing is shifting your focus from getting down with another woman and focusing your attentions on the other chick to focusing your attention on your wife and her lover and you are getting off on that voyueristic aspect. 

Some chicks will be down with that because they dig attention and dig it all being about them. 

Some chicks are NOT. My wife would have never done that as she was the voyueristic one and felt way too self conscious and uncomfortable with eyes and attention being on her. she liked having her own fun while I was having fun with someone else and she herself was the one that always wanted to watch from the shadows, but never be in the spotlight herself. 

So it is a change in dynamics that she may or may not be down for.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Now, here is my unsolicited input that you didn't ask for but as a free consulation gift I will add at no extra charge. 

IMHO the whole Hot Wife/Cuckold scenario is the highest risk of all the consensual nonmonogamy practices in terms of a female losing her respect, attraction and esteem for her partner and potentially falling for a play partner or a completely different man. 

There are a number of biological and instinctive forces in that particular scenario that are at higher risk of you appearing weak and inferior while at the same time putting the other lovers into the stronger and more masculine role. 

in couple/couple dynamics, she is seeing other females attracted to you and you get down with other chicks. that is showing her on a subconscious, instinctual level that you are a desirable, virile man that's not afraid to bang another chick right in front of her husband and your wife. 

So even though she is getting down with another dude,, there are some cosmic balance forces at play showing her that you are a strong and virile male capable of getting other chicks and replacing her should you so choose. 

In the Hot Wife/Cuckold scenario, that balance is tossed out the window and not you are presenting yourself as the weaker, inferior choice. Now your sitting in the shadows while she mates with the stronger, more virile, superior mate (figuratively speaking) 

The natural male operating system is polygamy where the stronger males have multiple mates and try to mate with as many females as he can while the lesser males have none. 

The natural female operating system is hypergamy where the females tries to get the strongest mate she can. 

By doing the Hot Wife/cuckold thing, you have automatically placed yourself into the inferior male role and placed the Bull into the superior male role. in her primative, instinctual mind, you have admitted you are inferior and are having her breed with a superior mate. 

Now does this mean with 100% surety that she is going to lose esteem and attraction for you and pack up and take off with the other dude? No of course not. But it does mean that there is a significantly higher risk of it. 

There are people that do this successfully but it is a minefield. My advice is if you really want to try this, you will need to bump up your game and pump up the volume in all other domains of your life and your masculinity. 

You're going to have to be large and in charge of the scenario and call the shots. You yourself likened it to watching your own porn so you are going to have to be your own porn set director and call all the shots. 
You're going to have to be dominant over the other having him following your instructions and directions and toss him out on his ear if he doesn't follow your lead. 

You're going to have to be dominant and in charge of all other aspects of your life at home so she knows who the Silver Back is ( dominant primate reference)

And if you do play out this scenario, the moment after the other dude cums, you need to toss him out and then bang her into the 4th dimension and do it 3 times better than he did. 

It's higher risk. Higher Stakes, so you are going to have to put in higher effort on risk management and risk mitigation.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Blondilocks said:


> What happens when (not if) she decides to get some on the side without you there to get your jollies?


This above is another thing you need to be aware of and deal with ^^^^^^^^

These guys are 100%, every single last one of them are going to try to get with her on their own. Guaranteed. 

If you do this right, you are going to be dominating these other guys and you are going to be the one calling all the shots and telling them what to do. You need to be having them be your dancing monkey if they want to get the puzzy. 

And they're going to be desperate enough they will do it so they can get some. 

HOWEVER they are also always going to try to find a way to get around behind your back and get with her on their own. They're going to try to slip her their contact info and tell her they can have their own fun together without you bossing them around telling them and her what to do. They tell her they can do their own thing for themselves without it being about YOUR viewing pleasure. 

And one of the big tactics that they'll use is they will tell her that if she were their woman, they would never let some other dude touch her and would never pimp her out for their own jollies. That is the much more strong and dominant frame and when chicks hear that, the cracks in the foundation start to open up. 

You need to be aware of this and take proactive steps to mitigate it.


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> And one of the big tactics that they'll use is they will tell her that if she were their woman, they would never let some other dude touch her and would never pimp her out for their own jollies. That is the much more strong and dominant frame and when chicks hear that, the cracks in the foundation start to open up.


And that works almost every time because it is SO TRUE!


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## EssexUKMale (Jan 13, 2022)

Blondilocks said:


> It's good that you and your wife have an amazing level of trust. What happens when (not if) she decides to get some on the side without you there to get your jollies?


Nothing we ever do is just one person’s decision.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

EssexUKMale said:


> Nothing we ever do is just one person’s decision.


So far.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

I guess I’ll be the first to say it. Brother, get help!

Side bar comment: everyone is telling another poster basically how she needs medication or counseling help to deal with her anxiety however this post gets a pass as “perfectly mentally stable”?


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

The game you are playing with your marriage.


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## EssexUKMale (Jan 13, 2022)

BigDaddyNY said:


> So far.


No it’s a strict boundary we have. We both agreed all decisions we make together. The day either of us overstep we talk about if it’s time to part


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

EssexUKMale said:


> No it’s a strict boundary we have. We both agreed all decisions we make together. The day either of us overstep we talk about if it’s time to part


Did you read what Oldshirt wrote? Every couple agrees to boundaries, but when you regularly push right up against them they can fail. I think you are playing with fire.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

EssexUKMale said:


> How do I even bring up cuckolding?


It doesn't sound like cuckolding is your thing. Your thing is better defined in the hotwife area. But if you would enjoy more taking a more sub role then maybe cuckolding is the way for you. Think more of a situation where she tells you sit over there while this guy bangs me harder than you ever could. Thats more of the cuckold vibe. It's kind of semantics. Give some thought to what it is that turns you on about watching her and then discuss that with her. Not as much I want to start doing this but this is what turns me on in these situations. Some women don't like all the focus on them so it sounds like you just need to have a general debrief session about what you have been doing and discuss where you go from there. I find being direct works best and see what she thinks and also what does she like about the activities that involve other people. She might enjoy seeing you with the other woman as well.


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## EssexUKMale (Jan 13, 2022)

oldshirt said:


> This above is another thing you need to be aware of and deal with ^^^^^^^^
> 
> These guys are 100%, every single last one of them are going to try to get with her on their own. Guaranteed.
> 
> ...


Yeah we have couples ask me to play solo. And had other couples ask her to play solo. She’s always come to me right away to show me any texts or tell me what was said. And she’s always told them to jog on. And Iv don’t the same. Me and mrs actually just had the talk lol. I’m not actually sure how to do a up date tho.


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## EssexUKMale (Jan 13, 2022)

Diana7 said:


> She is already having sex with other men so I have no idea why you think she would be worried by carrying on doing that.
> If you had a faithful marriage then of course she may freak out and be very hurt and rightly so.


Our marriage is faithful. Never been any cheating.


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## EssexUKMale (Jan 13, 2022)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Did you read what Oldshirt wrote? Every couple agrees to boundaries, but when you regularly push right up against them they can fail. I think you are playing with fire.


I seems like you are saying my wife is a cheat lol. We been swinging for 5 years. And it’s not something even do all time.


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## EssexUKMale (Jan 13, 2022)

happyhusband0005 said:


> It doesn't sound like cuckolding is your thing. Your thing is better defined in the hotwife area. But if you would enjoy more taking a more sub role then maybe cuckolding is the way for you. Think more of a situation where she tells you sit over there while this guy bangs me harder than you ever could. Thats more of the cuckold vibe. It's kind of semantics. Give some thought to what it is that turns you on about watching her and then discuss that with her. Not as much I want to start doing this but this is what turns me on in these situations. Some women don't like all the focus on them so it sounds like you just need to have a general debrief session about what you have been doing and discuss where you go from there. I find being direct works best and see what she thinks and also what does she like about the activities that involve other people. She might enjoy seeing you with the other woman as well.


We have both tried humiliation stuff in the past. My wife was actually first to say she didn’t like humiliating me. Because we generally have amazing sex and she just felt 2 fake. Like having to play a character to much and it took her out of it. The biggest irony was I actually felt the same way about humiliating her. So we agreed it wasn’t for us. We do like some degradation play tho. She like calling her perv. I like calling her my ****. But that’s about as far as even that goes. So I think your right about my thing not actually being cuckolding.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

EssexUKMale said:


> We have both tried humiliation stuff in the past. My wife was actually first to say she didn’t like humiliating me. Because we generally have amazing sex and she just felt 2 fake. Like having to play a character to much and it took her out of it. The biggest irony was I actually felt the same way about humiliating her. So we agreed it wasn’t for us. We do like some degradation play tho. She like calling her perv. I like calling her my ****. But that’s about as far as even that goes. So I think your right about my thing not actually being cuckolding.


Humiliation stuff I think would be tricky, you would need to find another couple or another man who is into doing the humiliation. We met with a couple once with a guy who his entire sexuality was based on being humiliated. We liked the wife and he was a perfectly good guy but we had zero interest in humiliating him, he was pretty extreme with it. Keeping some level of focus with two women is hard enough without worrying about telling the husband he could never satisfy a woman with his little **** over and over in as many different ways as possible.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

EssexUKMale said:


> I seems like you are saying my wife is a cheat lol. We been swinging for 5 years. And it’s not something even do all time.


I think I have a different definition of cheating than you, but based on how you define it, no I don't think she is. However, you are both dancing close to the fire. What you have now seems to work, but keep pushing and you may find you cross a line you can't come back from.


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## EssexUKMale (Jan 13, 2022)

happyhusband0005 said:


> Humiliation stuff I think would be tricky, you would need to find another couple or another man who is into doing the humiliation. We met with a couple once with a guy who his entire sexuality was based on being humiliated. We liked the wife and he was a perfectly good guy but we had zero interest in humiliating him, he was pretty extreme with it. Keeping some level of focus with two women is hard enough without worrying about telling the husband he could never satisfy a woman with his little **** over and over in as many different ways as possible.


Lol yeah I can imagine. We are not into humiliation anyway so that’s a non factor for us


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## EssexUKMale (Jan 13, 2022)

BigDaddyNY said:


> I think I have a different definition of cheating than you, but based on how you define it, no I don't think she is. However, you are both dancing close to the fire. What you have now seems to work, but keep pushing and you may find you cross a line you can't come back from.


Just updated so yeah it’s all good.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

EssexUKMale said:


> So we started practicing BDSM taking turns who doms and who subs and we got very far quite extreme. We then tried swinging. I found I really do not get off much with the other woman. But it drives me crazy with lust and a arousing type of jealousy her being with other men. Like we would swing I would be having a great time. The poor other woman thinking she’s getting me off. But really it was watching my wife doing it for me. My wife and I have amazing trust. And even tho I get jealous I love it. Because of trust we have.
> 
> Update. So had the talk. I even used 1 or 2 lines that was suggested to me. Was very positive. But also shocked me in a what that really boosted my confidence and ego.
> 
> ...


One of the first things I am going to suggest is that if you do updates, that you 1) never take anything away (sans spelling errors) from your first post (you didn't here, just future advice) and 2) While you add to the OP, that you also just post the addition regular. Took me a while to realize that your update was in the post 1 and not a new post. That also helps others have a rough idea where in the overall discussion the update happened. Nothing required mind you, just helpful bits for lowering confusion.

But this sounds like you guys would still do alright for the voyeur aspect. Both of you seem to be turned on by watching the other with a third. That's not playing solo. Technically still in the hot wife/hot husband category. Just keep your communications open, which you seem to be doing good at, and take each step slow.


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## EssexUKMale (Jan 13, 2022)

maquiscat said:


> One of the first things I am going to suggest is that if you do updates, that you 1) never take anything away (sans spelling errors) from your first post (you didn't here, just future advice) and 2) While you add to the OP, that you also just post the addition regular. Took me a while to realize that your update was in the post 1 and not a new post. That also helps others have a rough idea where in the overall discussion the update happened. Nothing required mind you, just helpful bits for lowering confusion.
> 
> But this sounds like you guys would still do alright for the voyeur aspect. Both of you seem to be turned on by watching the other with a third. That's not playing solo. Technically still in the hot wife/hot husband category. Just keep your communications open, which you seem to be doing good at, and take each step slow.


Thanks sorry new to site trying to work it all out. The solo thing is a couple people have asked about if my wife or I wanted it so she played with out me there. So solo. But yeah that not for us lol


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

if you two are not into the humiliation thing, then cuckolding is def out.

try hotwifing


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## EssexUKMale (Jan 13, 2022)

Talker67 said:


> if you two are not into the humiliation thing, then cuckolding is def out.
> 
> try hotwifing


Yeah that’s 1 of the things we want to do.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

CatholicDad said:


> I guess I’ll be the first to say it. Brother, get help!
> 
> Side bar comment: everyone is telling another poster basically how she needs medication or counseling help to deal with her anxiety however this post gets a pass as “perfectly mentally stable”?


Nothing he has said here has indicated any kind of mental or emotional issues with either of them. 

Just because someone's lifestyle is different than yours and they have different tastes and interests does not mean any kind of disorder.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

CatholicDad said:


> I guess I’ll be the first to say it. Brother, get help!
> 
> Side bar comment: everyone is telling another poster basically how she needs medication or counseling help to deal with her anxiety however this post gets a pass as “perfectly mentally stable”?


Apparently we aren't allowed to tell someone that they are heading for a very large fall and playing with fire due to their personal choices. 
They are though. I will give it 2 years.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

EssexUKMale said:


> Our marriage is faithful. Never been any cheating.


I didn't say cheating. I said it wasn't faithful. There is a difference.


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## EssexUKMale (Jan 13, 2022)

CatholicDad said:


> I guess I’ll be the first to say it. Brother, get help!
> 
> Side bar comment: everyone is telling another poster basically how she needs medication or counseling help to deal with her anxiety however this post gets a pass as “perfectly mentally stable”?


So I’m guessing you have zero fantasies fetishes or kinks. And probably a unsatisfied wife?


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## EssexUKMale (Jan 13, 2022)

Diana7 said:


> I didn't day cheating. I said it wasn't faithful. There is a difference.


Faithful is about trust. Swinging isn’t being unfaithful


----------



## EssexUKMale (Jan 13, 2022)

Diana7 said:


> Apparently we aren't allowed to tell someone that they are heading for a very large fall and playing with fire due to their personal choices.
> They are though. I will give it 2 years.


We been swinging for 5 years lol.


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## EssexUKMale (Jan 13, 2022)

oldshirt said:


> Nothing he has said here has indicated any kind of mental or emotional issues with either of them.
> 
> Just because someone's lifestyle is different than yours and they have different tastes and interests does not mean any kind of disorder.


Thank you. Me and my wife have tried things we didn’t like and we laughed it off together. I actually love the trust and security we have with each other.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

EssexUKMale said:


> So we started practicing BDSM taking turns who doms and who subs and we got very far quite extreme. We then tried swinging. I found I really do not get off much with the other woman. But it drives me crazy with lust and a arousing type of jealousy her being with other men. Like we would swing I would be having a great time. The poor other woman thinking she’s getting me off. But really it was watching my wife doing it for me. My wife and I have amazing trust. And even tho I get jealous I love it. Because of trust we have.
> 
> Update. So had the talk. I even used 1 or 2 lines that was suggested to me. Was very positive. But also shocked me in a what that really boosted my confidence and ego.
> 
> ...


A few thoughts. Marriage is about change over time and about negotiated boundaries that are beneficial for both. 

You and your wife seem to be able to communicate your sexual desires and discuss ways or compromises you would both enjoy.

My suggestion to you would be to agree to an extended frank discussion outside the bedroom every 3 to 4 months at which you again revisit boundaries. Also make sure you engage in aftercare both after BDSM swinging, and 3-some events. You might even talk about how to do some role playing that incorporates triggering swinging experiences. For example, if jealousy and exhibitionism are things that turn your wife on, they can be incorporated into just husband wife role playing.

Good luck.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

EssexUKMale said:


> I posted when she had gone to sleep. My worry is they it will bother me that I’m not interested in doing it both ways. And everything else we can’t both do or neither of us do it.


Rather that worrying about things that may or may not be, talk to you wife, but really listen and ask her to explain things until you understand them. Share you feeling with her, then discuss with her things you can do to make sure your swinging dates excite both of you.

For example, she has said that it excites her to see you with another woman. Listen to her, understand what it is that excites her. Is it the voyeurism on her part, is the jealousy on her part, is the the taboo, is it you being her "bad boy" she gets to reclaim? Fine out what it is that excites her. Then ask yourself if pleasing hear and making sure she gets what she wants out of the swinging experience is important to the both of you.

Good luck.


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## EssexUKMale (Jan 13, 2022)

Young at Heart said:


> A few thoughts. Marriage is about change over time and about negotiated boundaries that are beneficial for both.
> 
> You and your wife seem to be able to communicate your sexual desires and discuss ways or compromises you would both enjoy.
> 
> ...


Thanks and yeah we actually have weekly meetings where we will wait till our son is in bed order in dinner sit and talk about ANYTHING we wish to talk about. We actually have a custom note pad that we call our Laws of play. (We actually have throw multiple laws of play books away making new ones when they book doesn’t fully stay in line with our rules.) anything we try we try it on a trial and error situation where we have talks about things we liked things we didn’t. If we want to try it again. If it’s something we are going to laugh off as it’s not for us. Or if it’s something to add to play book. And 90% of the sex we have is actually just us. We have sex everyday only do any swing ones every 6/2 months. Just what works for us. And yeah we both love a healthy level of jealousy. For us being jealous is a reminder how much we trust each other. And the other being jealous is a reminder how much they want us. Thanks for your reply.


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## CrAzYdOgLaDy (Mar 22, 2021)

Not something I'm into personally, but I have fantasised about doing it with 2 men. I could never do it though haha. If you both agree with your situation/arrangement, are both 100% truthful, never going behind each others backs, trust each other completely then I don't think it's cheating or being unfaithful. Now if you or your wife started having sex without either knowing, taking other people on dates etc without each other knowing, then yes that is cheating, being unfaithful and would cause big problems, risks of falling for somebody else and destroying your marriage. If it's something you are both happy with and there is 100% trust then I wish you both all the best. Just beware of stds lol. Just curious, is there something you or your wife aren't allowed to do with the other person? Is there something only you both do to each other and out of bounds for anyone else? I know some this situation worked for, still together in old age (they stopped in their 50's I think) and another couple it destroyed their marriage. They both got feelings for other people and started sneaking behind each others backs. It's more common than people think.


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## EssexUKMale (Jan 13, 2022)

Young at Heart said:


> Rather that worrying about things that may or may not be, talk to you wife, but really listen and ask her to explain things until you understand them. Share you feeling with her, then discuss with her things you can do to make sure your swinging dates excite both of you.
> 
> For example, she has said that it excites her to see you with another woman. Listen to her, understand what it is that excites her. Is it the voyeurism on her part, is the jealousy on her part, is the the taboo, is it you being her "bad boy" she gets to reclaim? Fine out what it is that excites her. Then ask yourself if pleasing hear and making sure she gets what she wants out of the swinging experience is important to the both of you.
> 
> Good luck.


Funny enough she pretty much said all of this part when we talked. Is it the voyeurism on her part, is the jealousy on her part, is the the taboo, is it you being her "bad boy" she gets to reclaim? Fine out what it is that excites her. Then ask yourself if pleasing hear and making sure she gets what she wants out of the swinging experience is important to the both of you.


----------



## EssexUKMale (Jan 13, 2022)

CrAzYdOgLaDy said:


> Not something I'm into personally, but I have fantasised about doing it with 2 men. I could never do it though haha. If you both agree with your situation/arrangement, are both 100% truthful, never going behind each others backs, trust each other completely then I don't think it's cheating or being unfaithful. Now if you or your wife started having sex without either knowing, taking other people on dates etc without each other knowing, then yes that is cheating, being unfaithful and would cause big problems, risks of falling for somebody else and destroying your marriage. If it's something you are both happy with and there is 100% trust then I wish you both all the best. Just beware of stds lol. Just curious, is there something you or your wife aren't allowed to do with the other person? Is there something only you both do to each other and out of bounds for anyone else? I know some this situation worked for, still together in old age (they stopped in their 50's I think) and another couple it destroyed their marriage. They both got feelings for other people and started sneaking behind each others backs. It's more common than people think.


I couldn’t agree more with much of this. We always insist on protection. We previously cancelled playing with a couple who tried to refuse using condoms. We just said sorry you guys are not a match. Regular std tests. Only play with others who get regular tests. Neither of us want dates with others. Strictly sexual games and nothing more. And only with us both there. Thank you for your words. We have been swinging 5 years. Only been full swoops up until now. And to be fair we actually have sex every day lol. (Unless we have flu or something lol.) and we actually only swing every 6 weeks to 2 months. That probably our max.


----------



## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

Diana7 said:


> Apparently we aren't allowed to tell someone that they are heading for a very large fall and playing with fire due to their personal choices. They are though. I will give it 2 years.


You are allowed to say as you wish, but when you present it as a fait accompli (spelling may be off), expect to be told that such is not necessarily true. Especially in a relationship where there is a lot of communications and evaluation going on. Heck, look at how us lifestylers made the point that the one guy who caused the fear in the poster from rope play was in the wrong and she needs to get out of that. We aren't here to ensure that everyone gets into such things. We are here to dispel myths (such as only those with trauma are into BDSM) and ensure people are safe and communicating.

I've been over 2 decades and we are still doing strong.


----------



## EssexUKMale (Jan 13, 2022)

maquiscat said:


> You are allowed to say as you wish, but when you present it as a fait accompli (spelling may be off), expect to be told that such is not necessarily true. Especially in a relationship where there is a lot of communications and evaluation going on. Heck, look at how us lifestylers made the point that the one guy who caused the fear in the poster from rope play was in the wrong and she needs to get out of that. We aren't here to ensure that everyone gets into such things. We are here to dispel myths (such as only those with trauma are into BDSM) and ensure people are safe and communicating.
> 
> I've been over 2 decades and we are still doing strong.


Hi strong reply and I strongly agree. Out of curiosity. What is the lifestyle you and your partner follow?


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

CrAzYdOgLaDy said:


> Not something I'm into personally, but I have fantasised about doing it with 2 men. I could never do it though haha. If you both agree with your situation/arrangement, are both 100% truthful, never going behind each others backs, trust each other completely then I don't think it's cheating or being unfaithful. Now if you or your wife started having sex without either knowing, taking other people on dates etc without each other knowing, then yes that is cheating, being unfaithful and would cause big problems, risks of falling for somebody else and destroying your marriage. If it's something you are both happy with and there is 100% trust then I wish you both all the best. Just beware of stds lol. Just curious, is there something you or your wife aren't allowed to do with the other person? Is there something only you both do to each other and out of bounds for anyone else? I know some this situation worked for, still together in old age (they stopped in their 50's I think) and another couple it destroyed their marriage. They both got feelings for other people and started sneaking behind each others backs. It's more common than people think.


Its not being faithful. A faithful marriage is when you dont have sex with others.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

maquiscat said:


> You are allowed to say as you wish, but when you present it as a fait accompli (spelling may be off), expect to be told that such is not necessarily true. Especially in a relationship where there is a lot of communications and evaluation going on. Heck, look at how us lifestylers made the point that the one guy who caused the fear in the poster from rope play was in the wrong and she needs to get out of that. We aren't here to ensure that everyone gets into such things. We are here to dispel myths (such as only those with trauma are into BDSM) and ensure people are safe and communicating.
> 
> I've been over 2 decades and we are still doing strong.


I suspect that in the majority of cases things go to pot rather than work out.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

EssexUKMale said:


> So I’m guessing you have zero fantasies fetishes or kinks. And probably a unsatisfied wife?


I love having my wife and would rather be killed than share her. My fetish is her: her long brown curly hair, her lips, her eyes… just everything about her including who she _is_.

I think the desire to watch your wife like this probably came from watching porn. Sorry brother- I think this is a disorder.


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## EssexUKMale (Jan 13, 2022)

Diana7 said:


> Its not being faithful. A faithful marriage is when you dont have sex with others.


You are wrong. There is no lies no betrayals. Look up unfaithful. Unfaithful means infidelity. Infidelity means to betray. Zero cheating in what we do. Zero lies. To do what we do you need to have real trust communication and security. Yes swinging will destroy relationships if the relationship isn’t extremely strong and secure. But my marriage is iron tight.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

Diana7 said:


> Its not being faithful. A faithful marriage is when you dont have sex with others.


No, that is your definition. You don't get to define what faithful is to others. Sure adultery is objective, but whether it is positive, negative or neutral is also subjective. And for faithful; I get to decide and define what faithful means to me, not you. and neither of us get to define it for anyone else. And this is probably why you sometimes feel why I and the others get lighter treatment. You are trying to impose your viewpoint on us, by trying to tell us your definitions are the only ones. We on the other hand, are simply making the point that there are other views, and they are fine for those that have them, and for those that don't, no biggie, as long as they don't try to impose them.


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## EssexUKMale (Jan 13, 2022)

CatholicDad said:


> I love having my wife and would rather be killed than share her. My fetish is her: her long brown curly hair, her lips, her eyes… just everything about her including who she _is_.
> 
> I think the desire to watch your wife like this probably came from watching porn. Sorry brother- I think this is a disorder.


Lol I don’t watch porn. So your just wrong mate. Your very very ignorant. The reason it is such a turn on is because it’s a reminder of trust we have for each other. Just because you are very close minded doesn’t make you right. You being so pushy with ignorance you sound very insecure.


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## EssexUKMale (Jan 13, 2022)

Diana7 said:


> I suspect that in the majority of cases things go to pot rather than work out.


Swinging marriages also have a much lower divorce rate then vanilla marriages. So every study proves you wrong. Marriages fall apart for all kinds of reasons. You are just plan ignorant. Ignorants often stems from insecurities. I wish you the best. Hope you and your husband try MC.


----------



## EssexUKMale (Jan 13, 2022)

maquiscat said:


> No, that is your definition. You don't get to define what faithful is to others. Sure adultery is objective, but whether it is positive, negative or neutral is also subjective. And for faithful; I get to decide and define what faithful means to me, not you. and neither of us get to define it for anyone else. And this is probably why you sometimes feel why I and the others get lighter treatment. You are trying to impose your viewpoint on us, by trying to tell us your definitions are the only ones. We on the other hand, are simply making the point that there are other views, and they are fine for those that have them, and for those that don't, no biggie, as long as they don't try to impose them.


I wouldn’t bother arguing with her. She is clearly very ignorant. The big irony is ignorance often comes from insecurities. Studies prove this. So I suggested her and her husband try MC. It’s not normal behaviour to attack people just because they like different things.


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## EssexUKMale (Jan 13, 2022)

CatholicDad said:


> I love having my wife and would rather be killed than share her. My fetish is her: her long brown curly hair, her lips, her eyes… just everything about her including who she _is_.
> 
> I think the desire to watch your wife like this probably came from watching porn. Sorry brother- I think this is a disorder.


Have you been cheated on or something? You are showing clear ignorance. You are not a professional. And No professional therapist would say someone has a disorder because of a kink. To demand someone has a disorder just because they like different things is actually one of the big signs of a sociopath ironically. Maybe you should get yourself tested.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

EssexUKMale said:


> Have you been cheated on or something? You are showing clear ignorance. You are not a professional. And No professional therapist would say someone has a disorder because of a kink. To demand someone has a disorder just because they like different things is actually one of the big signs of a sociopath ironically. Maybe you should get yourself tested.


Sharing your wife is insane on so many levels. First, children can be created. Second, STDs or other communicable diseases. Does she wear a condom over her mouth? 😆 Condoms slip or tear too… I’m sure the guy riding your wife doesn’t care. Third, I’d think any self respecting woman would lose respect for a man willing to share them. It demonstrates that they aren’t that important to you.

But yeah, I’m nuts.


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## EssexUKMale (Jan 13, 2022)

CatholicDad said:


> Sharing your wife is insane on so many levels. First, children can be created. Second, STDs or other communicable diseases. Does she wear a condom over her mouth? 😆 Condoms slip or tear too… I’m sure the guy riding your wife doesn’t care. Third, I’d think any self respecting woman would lose respect for a man willing to share them. It demonstrates that they aren’t that important to you.
> 
> But yeah, I’m nuts.


To start of with she doesn’t give other men oral. And barely kiss other men. So again you make assumptions. Second we always use condoms. Third regular STD test and only play with people who have recently had a stds test. And again thank you for proving you are a sociopath. My wife and I have more respect for each other then you would ever realise. Again you are not a professional and no professional would agree with you. We have strict rules and boundaries. We have real trust and security. You are plan ignorant. Talking out your ass about something you know nothing about. Picking fights being a sad little Internet troll. Trying to force your ideas down other peoples throats. You show real signs of sociopathic tendencies. Please get help. If not for you for your poor wife.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

EssexUKMale said:


> You are wrong. There is no lies no betrayals. Look up unfaithful. Unfaithful means infidelity. Infidelity means to betray. Zero cheating in what we do. Zero lies. To do what we do you need to have real trust communication and security. Yes swinging will destroy relationships if the relationship isn’t extremely strong and secure. But my marriage is iron tight.


If it was that good you wouldn't need to commit adultery.


----------



## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

EssexUKMale said:


> Swinging marriages also have a much lower divorce rate then vanilla marriages. So every study proves you wrong. Marriages fall apart for all kinds of reasons. You are just plan ignorant. Ignorants often stems from insecurities. I wish you the best. Hope you and your husband try MC.


As much as I would like to support you on that, I have to hold you to the same standard as I would if Diane made the opposite claim about studies. Do you have any links to actual studies. Because the reality that I am aware of is that more people dive into alternative lifestyles without having solid relationships first and it cause them to crash. But that is from experience not studies, and I can at least admit that my area of effect to draw that experience is limited.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

EssexUKMale said:


> To start of with she doesn’t give other men oral. And barely kiss other men. So again you make assumptions. Second we always use condoms. Third regular STD test and only play with people who have recently had a stds test. And again thank you for proving you are a sociopath. My wife and I have more respect for each other then you would ever realise. Again you are not a professional and no professional would agree with you. We have strict rules and boundaries. We have real trust and security. You are plan ignorant. Talking out your ass about something you know nothing about. Picking fights being a sad little Internet troll. Trying to force your ideas down other peoples throats. You show real signs of sociopathic tendencies. Please get help. If not for you for your poor wife.


I think you are the one who has the poor wife to be fair. 
Most men would never want their precious wife to be having casual sex with other men. They would want to protect them and respect them.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

Diana7 said:


> If it was that good you wouldn't need to commit adultery.


Again, you don't get to choose others' standards. All the more power to you that you have and hold to the standards you have. I don't claim that your standards are wrong. Only that it is wrong to try to impose them upon others. Also you are doing that thing you always do when called out on the faithfulness issue and switch the goal posts to adultery. For people like him and me and the others like us here, all unfaithfulness is adultery (assuming a marriage in place), but not all adultery is unfaithfulness. Yes, both are the same for you, but we're not you, and you don't get to dictate how faithfulness applies to us.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

EssexUKMale said:


> I wouldn’t bother arguing with her. She is clearly very ignorant. The big irony is ignorance often comes from insecurities. Studies prove this. So I suggested her and her husband try MC. It’s not normal behaviour to attack people just because they like different things.


Thanks but we have a faithful loving marriage and would never cheapen and prostitute each other out to other people. We have far too much love and respect for each other to do that.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

maquiscat said:


> Again, you don't get to choose others' standards. All the more power to you that you have and hold to the standards you have. I don't claim that your standards are wrong. Only that it is wrong to try to impose them upon others. Also you are doing that thing you always do when called out on the faithfulness issue and switch the goal posts to adultery. For people like him and me and the others like us here, all unfaithfulness is adultery (assuming a marriage in place), but not all adultery is unfaithfulness. Yes, both are the same for you, but we're not you, and you don't get to dictate how faithfulness applies to us.


If you look up the meaning of adultery you will see that both of you are committing it. 
Faithfulness is when you have sex with your spouse only.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

EssexUKMale said:


> To start of with she doesn’t give other men oral. And barely kiss other men. So again you make assumptions. Second we always use condoms. Third regular STD test and only play with people who have recently had a stds test. And again thank you for proving you are a sociopath. My wife and I have more respect for each other then you would ever realise. Again you are not a professional and no professional would agree with you. We have strict rules and boundaries. We have real trust and security. You are plan ignorant. Talking out your ass about something you know nothing about. Picking fights being a sad little Internet troll. Trying to force your ideas down other peoples throats. You show real signs of sociopathic tendencies. Please get help. If not for you for your poor wife.


Sorry brother- not trying to be a troll here but you keep saying things that are confusing. So they “barely kiss” but clearly there is no way to have sex with someone without exchanging some amount of bodily fluids. I’m not a medical person either but I’d be worried about AIDs, Hepatitis, and even if tested I’d never risk my wife because no test is 100%. What about cold sores and things transmissible through kissing… heck I’d not want to risk my wife with that either. Finally, what if some weirdo wanted to “play” and falsified his STD test or went to some crummy doctor who signs STD tests but doesn’t know how or care to check for certain medical issues. My point- some medical risk is involved. There’s also relationship risk too- as in your woman losing her sense of being highly valued.

I guess we should just agree to disagree and move on. I wasn’t trying to pick a fight rather I had a suspicion that this wife share stuff probably came from porn- that’s all.


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

EssexUKMale said:


> To start of with she doesn’t give other men oral. And barely kiss other men. So again you make assumptions. Second we always use condoms. Third regular STD test and only play with people who have recently had a stds test. And again thank you for proving you are a sociopath. My wife and I have more respect for each other then you would ever realise. Again you are not a professional and no professional would agree with you. We have strict rules and boundaries. We have real trust and security. You are plan ignorant. Talking out your ass about something you know nothing about. Picking fights being a sad little Internet troll. Trying to force your ideas down other peoples throats. You show real signs of sociopathic tendencies. Please get help. If not for you for your poor wife.


You speak like a person who's only looking for validation here, not active discussion. You've shown your character which needs improvement before meeting the role of a caring spouse.


----------



## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

Diana7 said:


> If you look up the meaning of adultery you will see that both of you are committing it.


SO at which point did you fail to see that I agreed that adultery is an objective state, but as to whether it is a positive, negative or neutral things is a subjective state? Neither of us has disagreed with you on that. My only point is that you started with faithfulness and then when proven that your definition doesn't automatically apply to others, you consistently shift to adultery as if somehow we don't already own that sh**. You know what, let's go ahead and take it to the next step and point out that we are also engaging in fornication.



> Faithfulness is when you have sex with your spouse only.


NO that is what it means to YOU. You don't get to force that meaning onto me or others.


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

EssexUKMale said:


> Thank you. Me and my wife have tried things we didn’t like and we laughed it off together. I actually love the trust and security we have with each other.


that IS how its done. You do not know, ahead of time, if you will like or dislike a new kink. so people try it twice, the first time to get over the shock, and the 2nd time to see if they crave it or not. If after two times it does not turn you on, its time to cross that kink off of the list


----------



## EssexUKMale (Jan 13, 2022)

CatholicDad said:


> Sorry brother- not trying to be a troll here but you keep saying things that are confusing. So they “barely kiss” but clearly there is no way to have sex with someone without exchanging some amount of bodily fluids. I’m not a medical person either but I’d be worried about AIDs, Hepatitis, and even if tested I’d never risk my wife because no test is 100%. What about cold sores and things transmissible through kissing… heck I’d not want to risk my wife with that either. Finally, what if some weirdo wanted to “play” and falsified his STD test or went to some crummy doctor who signs STD tests but doesn’t know how or care to check for certain medical issues. My point- some medical risk is involved. There’s also relationship risk too- as in your woman losing her sense of being highly valued.
> 
> I guess we should just agree to disagree and move on. I wasn’t trying to pick a fight rather I had a suspicion that this wife share stuff probably came from porn- that’s all.


Of course you need to think about STD. But again. To swing you need to be getting tested. And you can only meet others who are getting tested. It’s no different to people who have hook ups wile single.


----------



## EssexUKMale (Jan 13, 2022)

Talker67 said:


> that IS how its done. You do not know, ahead of time, if you will like or dislike a new kink. so people try it twice, the first time to get over the shock, and the 2nd time to see if they crave it or not. If after two times it does not turn you on, its time to cross that kink off of the list


Very true. With us there been things we wasn’t 100% either was we tried a second time before saying not for us


----------



## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

EssexUKMale said:


> Swinging marriages also have a much lower divorce rate then vanilla marriages. So every study proves you wrong. Marriages fall apart for all kinds of reasons. You are just plan ignorant. Ignorants often stems from insecurities. I wish you the best. Hope you and your husband try MC.


On that we are going to have to disagree, unless you have something to back it up. I've only seen one article about that and it turned out to be a spam article for top 10 adult dating site. So please provide a source to this.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

EssexUKMale said:


> Are you mentally ill? Seriously? It’s the fastest growing fetish in the world. So yet again as you keep doing you are wrong! You are picking fights on the Internet with people about things you know nothing about. You show signs of sociopathic tendencies.


Ah so anyone who is in a faithful marriage has sociopathic tendencies? Okaaaaay.
So it's the fastest growing fetish in the world eh? Well thats ok then. Not surprising with the drastic fall in moral values even if that was true which I doubt.
Oh and it's laughable that marriages where there is adultery last more than those where there us faithfulness. Absolute nonsense.


maquiscat said:


> SO at which point did you fail to see that I agreed that adultery is an objective state, but as to whether it is a positive, negative or neutral things is a subjective state? Neither of us has disagreed with you on that. My only point is that you started with faithfulness and then when proven that your definition doesn't automatically apply to others, you consistently shift to adultery as if somehow we don't already own that sh**. You know what, let's go ahead and take it to the next step and point out that we are also engaging in fornication.
> 
> 
> 
> NO that is what it means to YOU. You don't get to force that meaning onto me or others.





maquiscat said:


> SO at which point did you fail to see that I agreed that adultery is an objective state, but as to whether it is a positive, negative or neutral things is a subjective state? Neither of us has disagreed with you on that. My only point is that you started with faithfulness and then when proven that your definition doesn't automatically apply to others, you consistently shift to adultery as if somehow we don't already own that sh**. You know what, let's go ahead and take it to the next step and point out that we are also engaging in fornication.
> 
> 
> 
> NO that is what it means to YOU. You don't get to force that meaning onto me or others.


Cambridge english dictionary
If your husband, wife, or partner is faithful, he or she does not have a sexual relationship with anyone else:


----------



## EssexUKMale (Jan 13, 2022)

BigDaddyNY said:


> On that we are going to have to disagree, unless you have something to back it up. I've only seen one article about that and it turned out to be a spam article for top 10 adult dating site. So please provide a source to this.


Multiple studies have been done that agree around 56% of marriages fall apart.
And multiple studies have agreed that around 47% of marriages involved in swinging also fall part. You can look up studies all you like. Information is out there. Again marriages fall apart for all sorts of reason. Communication and money issues being 2 of the biggest. Sex actually only comes in 3rd place for the most common issue for divorce. Again you should really realise you are the one who is trying to force your ideals on people. Not me. Not my place to educate ignorance.


----------



## EssexUKMale (Jan 13, 2022)

Diana7 said:


> Ah so anyone who is in a faithful marriage has sociopathic tendencies? Okaaaaay.
> So it's the fastest growing fetish in the world eh? Well thats ok then. Not surprising with the drastic fall in moral values even if that was true which I doubt.
> Oh and it's laughable that marriages where there is adultery last more than those where there us faithfulness. Absolute nonsense.
> 
> ...


Lol know but again showing how much of a sociopath you are. My marriage is faithful. With such ignorance and judgmental pushy ideals. I strongly doubt you marriage has anywhere close to the level of communication you think it does. Communication being 1 of the biggest issues leading to divorce. Again I feel very sorry for your husband. You probably talk over him invalidate and ignore him.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

EssexUKMale said:


> Multiple studies have been done that agree around 56% of marriages fall apart.
> And multiple studies have agreed that around 47% of marriages involved in swinging also fall part. You can look up studies all you like. Information is out there. Again marriages fall apart for all sorts of reason. Communication and money issues being 2 of the biggest. Sex actually only comes in 3rd place for the most common issue for divorce. Again you should really realise you are the one who is trying to force your ideals on people. Not me. Not my place to educate ignorance.


You are deluding yourself but thats ok. Oh and the percentage of marriages that end in divorce in the UK is 40%. I doubt you would know why most have divorced. 
Apparently porn use is cited in 40% of all divorces. Its not about sex its about unfaithfulness which according to dictionary definitions is what you are doing. 
Adultery almost always ends on tears.


----------



## EssexUKMale (Jan 13, 2022)

Diana7 said:


> Ah so anyone who is in a faithful marriage has sociopathic tendencies? Okaaaaay.
> So it's the fastest growing fetish in the world eh? Well thats ok then. Not surprising with the drastic fall in moral values even if that was true which I doubt.
> Oh and it's laughable that marriages where there is adultery last more than those where there us faithfulness. Absolute nonsense.
> 
> ...


I guess you never have any anal or oral sex. Because they are sins. You must never eat selfish because that’s a sin. You must never wear 2 different fabrics because that is a sin. You must not sleep in your marital bed next to your husband during your period because that is a sin. You should really be careful when using path to pick your ideals. You can’t cherry pick.


----------



## EssexUKMale (Jan 13, 2022)

Diana7 said:


> You are deluding yourself but thats ok. Oh and the percentage of marriages that end in divorce in the UK is 40%. I doubt you would know why most have divorced.
> Apparently porn use is cited in 40% of all divorces. Its not about sex its about unfaithfulness which according to dictionary definitions is what you are doing.
> Adultery almost always ends on tears.


Again again you are wrong!!! 40% of marriages needing in divorce is totally wrong!!!! Divorce is around 56% now. The main 2 issues are communication and financial strains. Sex and sex related issues is only the 3 most common reason. Again talking out of your ass.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

EssexUKMale said:


> Lol know but again showing how much of a sociopath you are. My marriage is faithful. With such ignorance and judgmental pushy ideals. I strongly doubt you marriage has anywhere close to the level of communication you think it does. Communication being 1 of the biggest issues leading to divorce. Again I feel very sorry for your husband. You probably talk over him invalidate and ignore him.


Not according to dictionary definitions. 
My husband knows he is blessed to have a faithful respectful loving wife. I am blessed to have a faithful loving respectful husband. Yes we communicate about anything and everything. However we love and respect each other far too much to have cheap sex with others. I could never treat him that way. Sex is far too important to us to cheapen it.


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## EssexUKMale (Jan 13, 2022)

Diana7 said:


> Ah so anyone who is in a faithful marriage has sociopathic tendencies? Okaaaaay.
> So it's the fastest growing fetish in the world eh? Well thats ok then. Not surprising with the drastic fall in moral values even if that was true which I doubt.
> Oh and it's laughable that marriages where there is adultery last more than those where there us faithfulness. Absolute nonsense.
> 
> ...


And finally studies show swinging will definitely destroy a weak marriage. This is true. But a strong marriage it actually increases communication. And tightens bonds. You have to already have a very very strong foundation. That is why most in the lifestyle will say sure if you are interested go for it but ONLY if you already have a strong rock solid relationship. You continue to talk about things you know nothing about. Misuse the word faithful basing it on a religious belief. Again never ever have anal or oral. Never eat selfish. Either you or hubby sleep out of your martial bed during your period. Or admit you are a hypocrite.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

EssexUKMale said:


> I guess you never have any anal or oral sex. Because they are sins. You must never eat selfish because that’s a sin. You must never wear 2 different fabrics because that is a sin. You must not sleep in your marital bed next to your husband during your period because that is a sin. You should really be careful when using path to pick your ideals. You can’t cherry pick.


Well as it happens I am not an early Jew who lived before Jesus came. So no I don't cherry pick. As you have bought the Bible into it I will remind you that Adultery has always been very serious to God. In fact He gives very strong warnings about the consequences. Your choice of course.


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## EssexUKMale (Jan 13, 2022)

Diana7 said:


> Not according to dictionary definitions.
> My husband knows he is blessed to have a faithful respectful loving wife. I am blessed to have a faithful loving respectful husband. Yes we communicate about anything and everything. However we love and respect each other far too much to have cheap sex with others. I could never treat him that way. Sex is far too important to us to cheapen it.


Again misusing faithful. You just come across uneducated at this point. Pure ignorance. Get a life and move on.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

EssexUKMale said:


> And finally studies show swinging will definitely destroy a weak marriage. This is true. But a strong marriage it actually increases communication. And tightens bonds. You have to already have a very very strong foundation. That is why most in the lifestyle will say sure if you are interested go for it but ONLY if you already have a strong rock solid relationship. You continue to talk about things you know nothing about. Misuse the word faithful basing it on a religious belief. Again never ever have anal or oral. Never eat selfish. Either you or hubby sleep out of your martial bed during your period. Or admit you are a hypocrite.


I looked up the dictionary definition. Its all there. 
IF your relationship was that good, there would be no need to cheapen it with casual sex. I have no idea why you would treat each other that way.


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## EssexUKMale (Jan 13, 2022)

Diana7 said:


> Well as it happens I am not an early Jew who lived before Jesus came. So no I don't cherry pick. As you have bought the Bible into it I will remind you that Adultery has always been very serious to God. In fact He gives very strong warnings about the consequences. Your choice of course.


Hahahahahahahahahahaha. Version forbidding oral and anal. As well as wearing 2 types of fabric actually appear post Jesus also. And again Jesus doesn’t allow the sins of the Old Testament. He only states that sins of the New Testament are the most important. Again cherry picking. Uneducated. Ignorance.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

EssexUKMale said:


> Again misusing faithful. You just come across uneducated at this point. Pure ignorance. Get a life and move on.


Its under dictionary definitions. Easy to look up.


----------



## EssexUKMale (Jan 13, 2022)

Diana7 said:


> I looked up the dictionary definition. Its all there.
> IF your relationship was that good, there would be no need to cheapen it with casual sex. I have no idea why you would treat each other that way.


Again we do not need swinging. We can take it or leave it. Again twisting facts because you are a sociopath. Trying to force your ideals on others. Your poor emasculated husband.


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## EssexUKMale (Jan 13, 2022)

Diana7 said:


> Its under dictionary definitions. Easy to look up.


Again wrong. Unfaithfulness is about betrayal of sexual acts and lies. Zero lies or betrayal with us. Take your Stone Age book else where.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

EssexUKMale said:


> Hahahahahahahahahahaha. Version forbidding oral and anal. As well as wearing 2 types of fabric actually appear post Jesus also. And again Jesus doesn’t allow the sins of the Old Testament. He only states that sins of the New Testament are the most important. Again cherry picking. Uneducated. Ignorance.


Nope. I am not Jewish. No where does the NT after Jesus comes tell Christians what they can and cant wear or eat. We were set free from those things. . As it happens we both know anal sex is a no no anyway. As for oral sex maybe you need to read song of songs.


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## EssexUKMale (Jan 13, 2022)

Diana7 said:


> Nope. I am not Jewish. No where does the NT after Jesus comes tell Christians what they can and cant wear or eat. We were set free from those things. . As it happens we both know anal sex is a no no anyway. As for oral sex maybe you need to read song of songs.


Lol you are either lying point blank or stupid. Oral falls under Sodomy!!! Sodomy is the sin. And Sodomy is the acts of anal and oral sex. Get educated and **** off.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

EssexUKMale said:


> Lol you are either lying point blank or stupid. Oral falls under Sodomy!!! Sodomy is the sin. And Sodomy is the acts of anal and oral sex. Get educated and **** off.


Sodomy is anal sex surely you know that. Good grief. 

Just a little warning. I cant do more that warn you of the consequences. 

Warning against Adultery
20Do what your father tells you, my son, and never forget what your mother taught you. 21Keep their words with you always, locked in your heart. 22Their teaching will lead you when you travel, protect you at night, and advise you during the day. 23Their instructions are a shining light; their correction can teach you how to live. 24It can keep you away from bad women, from the seductive words of other men's wives. 25Don't be tempted by their beauty; don't be trapped by their flirting eyes. 26A man can hire a prostitute for the price of a loaf of bread, but adultery will cost him all he has.
27Can you carry fire against your chest without burning your clothes? 28Can you walk on hot coals without burning your feet? 29It is just as dangerous to sleep with another man's wife. Whoever does it will suffer. 30People don't despise a thief if he steals food when he is hungry; 31yet if he is caught, he must pay back seven times more — he must give up everything he has. 32But a man who commits adultery hasn't any sense. He is just destroying himself. 
*Explore Proverbs 6 by Verse*


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## EssexUKMale (Jan 13, 2022)

Diana7 said:


> Sodomy is anal sex surely you know that. Good grief.
> 
> Just a little warning. I cant do more that warn you of the consequences.
> 
> ...


No it’s not you uneducated moron. Sodomy is anal and oral. Google it!!!! Let me make it easy for you









Sodomy - Wikipedia







en.m.wikipedia.org


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## EssexUKMale (Jan 13, 2022)

Diana7 said:


> Sodomy is anal sex surely you know that. Good grief.
> 
> Just a little warning. I cant do more that warn you of the consequences.
> 
> ...


The fact you do not know sodomy is also oral proves you do not have clue what your talking about!!!

so are you saying anyone gets divorced must stay single and never have sex again??? Because under Christian belief to have sex or remarry after divorce is adultery. Again because when using a Stone Age book to shape your views and argument. You look stupid.


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## EssexUKMale (Jan 13, 2022)

Diana7 said:


> Nope. I am not Jewish. No where does the NT after Jesus comes tell Christians what they can and cant wear or eat. We were set free from those things. . As it happens we both know anal sex is a no no anyway. As for oral sex maybe you need to read song of songs.


Also you dumbie. The bible states sodomy is (The acts of anal and oral) but goes on to only talk about forceful anal (Anal Rape) so you genuinely are using a stone aged book that misuses words to make your arguments. Literally showing a lack of self awareness.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

Diana7 said:


> Cambridge english dictionary
> If your husband, wife, or partner is faithful, he or she does not have a sexual relationship with anyone else:


Let's look at the overall entry:



> firm and not changing in your friendship with or support for a person or an organization, or in your belief in your principles:


That's where we come from in our faithfulness to our spouses, in my case all three. Note that there is no mention of sexual exclusiveness. Also:



> to continue to support or follow something:


Our marriages as we define them. Not you.

While I am granting that the definition that you gave is in the entry for the word, the word faithful itself is in the definition, meaning that it is subject to circular reasoning fallacy. Which means that we have to fall back on the other definitions. And going by which, we achieve the definition of faithful. And in none of those does it state that you are not faithful by having faithfulness to more than one thing. Even in the concept to fidelity, there is no limit to one person:



> honest or lasting support, or loyalty, especially to a sexual partner:


No exclusivity there. Tell me what about my marriage is not honest. Show me where I am not giving my spouses lasting support or loyalty.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

EssexUKMale said:


> Multiple studies have been done that agree around 56% of marriages fall apart.
> And multiple studies have agreed that around 47% of marriages involved in swinging also fall part. You can look up studies all you like. Information is out there. Again marriages fall apart for all sorts of reason. Communication and money issues being 2 of the biggest. Sex actually only comes in 3rd place for the most common issue for divorce. Again you should really realise you are the one who is trying to force your ideals on people. Not me. Not my place to educate ignorance.


As much as we are supporting the same conclusion, the thing is, you brought up these studies, and therefore it is up to you to support your assertions by citing and linking to (or at least referencing if there is no internet link) the studies themselves. No it is not your place to educate, but it is your place to support your own assertions.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

Diana7 said:


> Well as it happens I am not an early Jew who lived before Jesus came. So no I don't cherry pick. *As you have bought the Bible into it I will remind you that Adultery has always been very serious to God.* In fact He gives very strong warnings about the consequences. Your choice of course.


This only applies if one follows the same deity you do. Goddess doesn't hold to the same standards as your God does.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

Diana7 said:


> I looked up the dictionary definition. Its all there.
> IF your relationship was that good, there would be no need to *cheapen* it with casual sex. I have no idea why you would treat each other that way.


Subjective value. I will grant that to you, it cheapens a marriage. To us it does not. Both views are valid, but we don't try to tell you that it will not cheapen yours. Only that it doesn't ours. YOU are the one imposing your definitions on us.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

EssexUKMale said:


> Again we do not need swinging. We can take it or leave it. Again twisting facts because you are a sociopath. Trying to force your ideals on others. Your poor emasculated husband.


Dude, chill a bit on the ad homs. You are not exactly being a good example of those of us in the lifestyle. We can certainly bring the facts to light without attacking Diane or CD or the others personally.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

Diana7 said:


> Sodomy is anal sex surely you know that. Good grief.


You are quite wrong,

*



Sodomy

Click to expand...

*


> (/ˈsɒdəmi/) or *buggery* (British English) is generally anal or oral sex between people, or sexual activity between a person and a non-human animal (bestiality), but it may also mean any non-procreative sexual activity.[1][2][3][4]











Sodomy - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org







> anal or oral copulation with a member of the same or opposite sexalso *: *copulation with an animal











Definition of SODOMY


anal or oral copulation with another person; especially : anal or oral copulation with a member of the same sex; copulation with an animal… See the full definition




www.merriam-webster.com







> sexual intercourse involving anal or oral copulation.


Oxford Languages via Google.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

I never thought I’d see swingers defending swinging via theology…. the reasoning is “it’s all sinful so we might as swing too”. What poor logic and theology.

Even male animals instinctively will fight and risk death to preserve their access to females. Hotwife/cuckold or whatever it is- seems like a disorder just when compared to the barnyard.

Reminds me of all the gender confusion issues going on these days.

Regardless, even with condoms and “barely kissing” it is risky. I still believe fetishes like this come from porn… it’s just so unnatural. I don’t think a man just wakes up one day and thinks “I’d sure like to see Bob have sex with my wife”. Most guys I know think the opposite “I’d kill Bob if he even hits on my wife”.


----------



## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

EssexUKMale said:


> Multiple studies have been done that agree around 56% of marriages fall apart.
> And multiple studies have agreed that around 47% of marriages involved in swinging also fall part. You can look up studies all you like. Information is out there. Again marriages fall apart for all sorts of reason. Communication and money issues being 2 of the biggest. Sex actually only comes in 3rd place for the most common issue for divorce. Again you should really realise you are the one who is trying to force your ideals on people. Not me. Not my place to educate ignorance.


I've tried and failed to find and credible studies that agree with what you re saying. The trail always ends with a swinger that makes an assertion without actual data or studies. If anything I suspect there is little to no difference in divorce rates. That is if you are looking at couples that are successfully in the swinging lifestyle. However, what isn't accounted for is how many marriages are destroyed from the attempt. and never truly become swingers.

You can do what you like. I'm just saying as you push further you increase your risk. You have been successful thus far. Keep pushing the boundaries and you may or may not find your marriage's breaking point. Proceed with caution.


----------



## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

maquiscat said:


> You are quite wrong,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well I just learned something new, lol. I always thought sodomy was just anal sex too. 

That said, a lot of Christians believe any sex act that both spouses agree to is okay. The only thing really not okay is bringing others into the mix. That works for me.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

EssexUKMale said:


> The fact you do not know sodomy is also oral proves you do not have clue what your talking about!!!
> 
> so are you saying anyone gets divorced must stay single and never have sex again??? Because under Christian belief to have sex or remarry after divorce is adultery. Again because when using a Stone Age book to shape your views and argument. You look stupid.


You perhaps need some good teaching on what the Bible says about divorce.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Well I just learned something new, lol. I always thought sodomy was just anal sex too.
> 
> That said, a lot of Christians believe any sex act that both spouses agree to is okay. The only thing really not okay is bringing others into the mix. That works for me.


In the end it's about what we feel that inner peace about along with what God says. We know oral sex is ok because Song of Songs clearly speaks about it in erotic detail. A whole book devoted to faithful loving sex.
Neither of us feels anal sex is something we should do or want to do.
We feel the Bible confirms that but we all need to read and pray about it if we are Christians. Obviously faithfulness is a given. 
If we aren't Christians then we make our own choices.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

Diana7 said:


> You perhaps need some good teaching on what the Bible says about divorce.


Only if he follows that religion. Why would a non-Christian care otherwise?


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

maquiscat said:


> Only if he follows that religion. Why would a non-Christian care otherwise?


Well he keep trying to tell me what the Bible says and initially bought it up himself. This is why I suggested he did some studying on divorce in the Bible as he has it wrong.


----------



## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

Diana7 said:


> Well he keep trying to tell me what the Bible says and initially bought it up himself. This is why I suggested he did some studying on divorce in the Bible as he has it wrong.


Fair enough. I read it as he needed to follow it. Mia culpa.


----------



## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

CrAzYdOgLaDy said:


> Not something I'm into personally, but I have fantasised about doing it with 2 men. I could never do it though haha. If you both agree with your situation/arrangement, are both 100% truthful, never going behind each others backs, trust each other completely then I don't think it's cheating or being unfaithful. Now if you or your wife started having sex without either knowing, taking other people on dates etc without each other knowing, then yes that is cheating, being unfaithful and would cause big problems, risks of falling for somebody else and destroying your marriage. If it's something you are both happy with and there is 100% trust then I wish you both all the best. Just beware of stds lol. Just curious, is there something you or your wife aren't allowed to do with the other person? Is there something only you both do to each other and out of bounds for anyone else? I know some this situation worked for, still together in old age (they stopped in their 50's I think) and another couple it destroyed their marriage. They both got feelings for other people and started sneaking behind each others backs. It's more common than people think.


it would make a nice erotic fantasy!


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

maquiscat said:


> Fair enough. I read it as he needed to follow it. Mia culpa.


I always say that people are free to make their own choices if they aren't Christians.


----------



## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

CatholicDad said:


> .....Even male animals instinctively will fight and risk death to preserve their access to females. Hotwife/cuckold or whatever it is- seems like a disorder just when compared to the barnyard.
> 
> ....... Most guys I know think the opposite “I’d kill Bob if he even hits on my wife”.


There are male animals that will allow other males to raise their young offspring, once they have snuck in and impregnated a female.

Study on species where males raise the biological offspring of others



> analysis of 62 studies of paternity and parental care in 50 different species of insects, fish, birds and mammals. To explain why males care for offspring that someone else might have sired, the researchers considered factors such as whether the males were aware of the female philandering, the likelihood of cuckoldry and the cost of caring for non-biological offspring.


The "I'll kill you if you hit on my wife attitude" usually results in someone getting at best locked up and sent to jail for a very long time or death with the other guy claiming self defense.

I have seen some incredible step-dads during my life, who love their "children" with all their heart.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Young at Heart said:


> There are male animals that will allow other males to raise their young offspring, once they have snuck in and impregnated a female.
> 
> Study on species where males raise the biological offspring of others
> 
> ...


I never said anything contrary to step dads- just that wife sharing is unnatural.


----------



## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

Diana7 said:


> I always say that people are free to make their own choices if they aren't Christians.


And yet you are trying to tell use what we are to consider faithful or not.


----------



## sideways (Apr 12, 2016)

EssexUKMale said:


> To start of with she doesn’t give other men oral. And barely kiss other men. So again you make assumptions. Second we always use condoms. Third regular STD test and only play with people who have recently had a stds test. And again thank you for proving you are a sociopath. My wife and I have more respect for each other then you would ever realise. Again you are not a professional and no professional would agree with you. We have strict rules and boundaries. We have real trust and security. You are plan ignorant. Talking out your ass about something you know nothing about. Picking fights being a sad little Internet troll. Trying to force your ideas down other peoples throats. You show real signs of sociopathic tendencies. Please get help. If not for you for your poor wife.


Don't take this wrong, but do you know what the word ignorant means? 

Before you fly off the handle and get defensive it means you don't know. 

She "barely" kisses other men?
"Always wear condoms"? So you're making an "assumption" that condoms don't break or leak??

"Only play with people who have had a recent STD test"?? So in your mind, someone could have had an STD test two weeks prior and came up clean but it wouldn't matter if this same person had sex four days after receiving the results and then this same person had sex with your wife.

"Respect" has NOTHING to do with what's been pointed out to you about the risks you're taking doing thus with your wife.

So NO your plan doesn't have protective "boundaries" and "no professional" would be agreeing with you and your wife on how you're going about this.

So again. Ignorant....you do not know....so it might behoove you to wake the F up and educate yourself because right now you are clueless.


----------



## Tested_by_stress (Apr 1, 2021)

CatholicDad said:


> I think the desire to watch your wife like this probably came from watching porn. Sorry brother- I think this is a disorder.


Swapping and sharing fetishes have been around much much longer than porn. Not my cup of tea but to each his (or her) own I guess.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

maquiscat said:


> And yet you are trying to tell use what we are to consider faithful or not.


Just telling you what the definition of the word means according to dictionaries.. If you want to have casual sex with others at least acknowledge it for what it is. An unfaithful marriage.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Tested_by_stress said:


> Swapping and sharing fetishes have been around much much longer than porn. Not my cup of tea but to each his (or her) own I guess.


I suspect it's got a lot worse since porn.


----------



## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

CatholicDad said:


> I never said anything contrary to step dads- just that wife sharing is unnatural.


Actually, what you said was


> ...Even male animals instinctively will fight and risk death to preserve their access to females. *Hotwife/cuckold or whatever it is- seems like a disorder just when compared to the barnyard.*


What I provided a link to was lots and lots of different species where males are regularly cuckolded and raise the genetic offspring of other males. A step-dad is a man who has chosen for a variety of reasons to raise the genetic offspring of another male. Yes, he is one of your "or whatever's." There is nothing inherently "a disorder just when compared to the barnyard" in any relationship where there is love, trust and honesty.

It is not my thing. My wedding vows were part of a sacramental marriage ceremony. However, adults have free will and if they can live with the consequences of their actions, are free to mutually do all kinds of things I would not do.


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

EssexUKMale said:


> Lol know but again showing how much of a sociopath you are. My marriage is faithful. With such ignorance and judgmental pushy ideals. I strongly doubt you marriage has anywhere close to the level of communication you think it does. Communication being 1 of the biggest issues leading to divorce. Again I feel very sorry for your husband. You probably talk over him invalidate and ignore him.


If your posts are examples of your communication skills your problems are bound to continue and worsen. What is your real purpose in being an agitator?


----------



## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

Diana7 said:


> Just telling you what the definition of the word means according to dictionaries.. If you want to have casual sex with others at least acknowledge it for what it is. An unfaithful marriage.


Yeah I noticed that you avoided that response too. I showed you the other definitions, and how we meet those definitions. This is before we point out the circular reason fallacy of your dictionary's definition. Furthermore, that definition is based upon a religious false premise, that a marriage has to be closed.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Diana7 said:


> Its not being faithful. A faithful marriage is when you dont have sex with others.


That's a faithful marriage to YOU. 

To others a faithful marriage is they agree to and remain faithful to their own parameters of their relationship which may or may not include some kind of contact with others. 

"Faithful" can mean agreeing to and following a mutually agree upon set of parameters by the parties involved. 

It does not have to mean following an arbitrary standard set by a disinterested 3rd party.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Diana7 said:


> I always say that people are free to make their own choices if they aren't Christians.


Does this mean Christians are not able to make their own choices?

I am not a scholar of the bible but I don't recall anything indicating Christ was a dictator or an A-hole.


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> That's a faithful marriage to YOU.
> 
> To others a faithful marriage is they agree to and remain faithful to their own parameters of their relationship which may or may not include some kind of contact with others.
> 
> ...


Why even get married? You know what the current standards and mores are. Don't pretend you don't. If you want a single lifestyle, then be single and don't bring that crap around offspring.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Why even get married? You know what the current standards and mores are. Don't pretend you don't. If you want a single lifestyle, then be single and don't bring that crap around offspring.


Why? Because marriage means different things to some people. It doesn't have to conform to your or "majority" standards. If the couple has their own reasons to marry and are in agreement with how they want to structure and conduct theirs, then who are you to impose your limited and biased views on others?


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Why even get married?


Because they want to, and because you weren't elected the Grand Poobah of sanctioning other's marriages.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Married but Happy said:


> Why? Because marriage means different things to some people. It doesn't have to conform to your or "majority" standards. If the couple has their own reasons to marry and are in agreement with how they want to structure and conduct theirs, then who are you to impose your limited and biased views on others?


Your marriage idea isn't legal in the United States. I'm not sure where you are but if it's legal where you are I wouldn't want to live there. It's pointless.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Why even get married? You know what the current standards and mores are. Don't pretend you don't. If you want a single lifestyle, then be single and don't bring that crap around offspring.


To that note, many people are choosing not to marry.

And those that do marry are often doing it much later in life than previous generations. 

I predict that trend will continue and in time we will see traditional, monogamous marriage in the 20something age bracket as a small minority. 

That being said, marriage isn’t just about sexual monogamy. People get legally married for any number of reasons. 

I mean after all, look at all the number of people here that aren’t having sex AT ALL, and are yet choosing to remain married. 

That means that people see marriage as more than simply a sexual paradigm that determines whether or not someone has multiple sex partners or not.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Your marriage idea isn't legal in the United States. I'm not sure where you are but if it's legal where you are I wouldn't want to live there. It's pointless.


Exactly in which state is it illegal to have an open marriage and engage in swinging? This ought to be good.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

maquiscat said:


> Exactly in which state is it illegal to have an open marriage and engage in swinging? This ought to be good.


Yeah I’m waiting for that answer as well. 

In the US you can only have one legally recognized spouse, but there’s no law that dictates when you do sexually with that spouse or others provided it is a consenting adult.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

maquiscat said:


> Exactly in which state is it illegal to have an open marriage and engage in swinging? This ought to be good.


Having more than one wife is bigamy. I don't know what your living situation is but if you're living in a polygamist household, you are common law married to everyone else that you're living near as husband and wife with. That's bigamy and is illegal.

Again, why get married at all? What is your motive there? What do you get out of saying you're married when the definition of marriage means zero to you.

I don't care if you're single and screw everything that walks as long as you keep kids away from it to protect them.

Don't you guys have a separate thread on polygamy?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Having more than one wife is bigamy. I don't know what your living situation is but if you're living in a polygamist household, you are common law married to everyone else that you're living near as husband and wife with. That's bigamy and is illegal.
> 
> Again, why get married at all? What is your motive there? What do you get out of saying you're married when the definition of marriage means zero to you.
> 
> I don't care if you're single and screw everything that walks as long as you keep kids away from it to protect them.


I'm sure what country you are in but in the US the law only recognises one spouse legally at a time. 

The bigamy laws pertains to cases of fraud where one person tries to legally marry someone while they are still legally married to someone else. 

As long as all parties are in agreement, you have as many other consenting adults in your household as you want. The others are just considered cohabitors and roommates legally, but no one is pursued or proscecuted criminally.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Having more than one wife is bigamy. I don't know what your living situation is but if you're living in a polygamist household, you are common law married to everyone else that you're living near as husband and wife with. That's bigamy and is illegal.
> 
> Again, why get married at all? What is your motive there? What do you get out of saying you're married when the definition of marriage means zero to you.
> 
> ...




You are incorrect on a lot of this. First off, very few states right now have laws covering common law marriage. Meaning that you are not common law married simply because you are living together and claiming each other as spouse. Secondly, the state cannot force a status on you that you didn't seek purely for the sake of prosecuting you with another law. IOW, if there is a legitimate and legal marriage already in place, a state cannot use common law marriage to force a second legal marriage status on you, especially not to then prosecute you for bigamy. Brown vs Utah already proved that. Third, bigamy can only use if a person has multiple legal marriage statuses at the same time. No marriage that is based solely on religious or social basis can be considered a legal marriage. IOW, if there are not two concurrent marriage certificates, the state has no basis for prosecution. Last and most importantly, is that you changed the question I asked, engaging in a strawman fallacy. I didn't ask about polygamist marriages. I asked about a marriage being open and engaging in swinging. You know, the topic of the thread? In what state is it illegal for a married couple to open their marriage up and allow each other to have sex with people outside their marriage? I never asked about anyone marrying those outside the legal marriage.

Sent from my cp3705A using Tapatalk


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Like I said four times now, then why get married? And my main concern is bringing children into this.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Like I said four times now, then why get married? And my main concern is bringing children into this.


And like we've been telling you, people seek marriage for reasons besides or in addition to sexual monogamy. 

And for the sake of reasonability, let's assume that they are not molesting kids or exposing them to sexual activities........ y'know, like any other reasonable and law abiding adult.

Frankly, I thought you were more reasonble than this. I expect this from Diana, but I thought you were more rational and open minded. I expected more from a varsity letterman.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Marriage isn't necessary, IMO - and that of my wife. But it can be useful. We married because there are legal and financial incentives to do so built into the system which we needed to use. Why get married? Why not! If it serves our needs, we have every right to do so if we wish. We have no interest in polygamy, and no wish to marry multiple people in any legal sense. We have had polyamorous relationships, which have no legal basis (although you can create legal contracts to define the rights and responsibilities of the participants without violating laws on marriage).


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> That's a faithful marriage to YOU.
> 
> To others a faithful marriage is they agree to and remain faithful to their own parameters of their relationship which may or may not include some kind of contact with others.
> 
> ...


Again just telling you the dictionary definition of faithfulness in marriage. Faithfulness is when you have sex outside if the husband and wife. At least people should be honest about it.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> Does this mean Christians are not able to make their own choices?
> 
> I am not a scholar of the bible but I don't recall anything indicating Christ was a dictator or an A-hole.


It means He gives us very wise and clear instructions to live by. If we go our own way and make stupid choices then we will reap the consequences.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> And like we've been telling you, people seek marriage for reasons besides or in addition to sexual monogamy.
> 
> And for the sake of reasonability, let's assume that they are not molesting kids or exposing them to sexual activities........ y'know, like any other reasonable and law abiding adult.
> 
> Frankly, I thought you were more reasonble than this. I expect this from Diana, but I thought you were more multiple partners at once rational and open minded. I expected more from a varsity letterman.


How do you expect your kids to date if they grow up thinking that marriage means multiple partners at once? Don't you think they're going to have some social problems if they approach dating like that? Don't you think that's why cults isolate their children and try to indoctrinate and groom new young people into the system? 

And I don't know if you have kids, but if you have a teen daughter, do you want somebody double-teaming her like you described on here before? Because that's what you're teaching her.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

DownByTheRiver said:


> How do you expect your kids to date if they grow up thinking that marriage means multiple partners at once? Don't you think they're going to have some social problems if they approach dating like that? Don't you think that's why cults isolate their children and try to indoctrinate and groom new young people into the system?
> 
> And I don't know if you have kids, but if you have a teen daughter, do you want somebody double-teaming her like you described on here before? Because that's what you're teaching her.


Ok let's consider that philosophy of moneky see/monkey do. 

But first let's set aside the obvious that people don't typically tell their kids what specific sexual activities they do in the privacy of their own bedroom and the fact that no child even wants to hear about what their parents do in bed. But for the sake of argument lets take what you are saying that kids will always do what their parents do. 

By that line of reasoning, children that grew up in a traditional, monogamous marriage should by design go on to be traditional and monogamous. 

And since traditional marriage and monogamy have historically been the predominant paradigm for thousands of years,,,, how is it that we have swinging and polyamory and polygamy and homosexuality and 3somes etc AT ALL?

But lets take it further. there are tens of millions of people in the country practicing some form of alternative lifestyle right now. How did that come about if the predominant form of sexual practice is traditional marriage and monogamy? 

Were your parents married and monogamous for life?? So does that mean that YOU are married and monogamous and have only been with your husband for life????

Is there a possibility that children may not always follow in their parent's footsteps or even their parent's wishes??????

Might children go on to decide for themselves what sexual paradigms and mating strategies work best for THEM? 

Could various cultural factors and societal influences and even economic factors also influence a young adult's choices in the dating and sexual market place? 

The nut may not initially fall from the tree the moment it leaves the branch. But the nuts that actually germinate and take root and grow into their own entity are the ones that were carried out into the rain and sunlight by other forces rather than in the shade of the parent tree. And never does the new tree sprout off of the trunk of the parent. 

If offspring of the traditionalist can move on to alternative lifestyle, then so too can the offspring of the alternative take the traditional path. 

If my daughter were to really thumb her nose at me and be rebelious, then she would marry young and live happily ever after in a traditional role.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

DownByTheRiver said:


> ?
> 
> And I don't know if you have kids, but if you have a teen daughter, do you want somebody double-teaming her like you described on here before? Because that's what you're teaching her.


You are making another blatant Strawman. 

Where has anyone said anything about teens being double teamed????


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> How do you expect your kids to date if they grow up thinking that marriage means multiple partners at once? Don't you think they're going to have some social problems if they approach dating like that? Don't you think that's why cults isolate their children and try to indoctrinate and groom new young people into the system?
> 
> And I don't know if you have kids, but if you have a teen daughter, do you want somebody double-teaming her like you described on here before? Because that's what you're teaching her.


I've gone down this path in other threads and it lead nowhere, lol. I keep being told otherwise, but I find it difficult to believe that it doesn't impact the children. Honestly though I really cant say it does, but in my mind it seems pretty logical that it would or at least could. At the same time there are plenty of messed up kids with "normal" 2 person parents that are married.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

BigDaddyNY said:


> At the same time there are plenty of messed up kids with "normal" 2 person parents that are married.


As well as there are "normal" kids with messed up parents.

But yes, this argument goes nowhere and is just putting this thread at risk of being closed due to monkeys throwing poop at each other again so I shall bow out of any further "it harms the kids" debate.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> Ok let's consider that philosophy of moneky see/monkey do.
> 
> But first let's set aside the obvious that people don't typically tell their kids what specific sexual activities they do in the privacy of their own bedroom and the fact that no child even wants to hear about what their parents do in bed. But for the sake of argument lets take what you are saying that kids will always do what their parents do.
> 
> ...


As has been said here over and over no one is talking about telling children specifics about what happens in the bedroom, but of general moral values in marriage. 
So the majority would want their children to value faithfulness in marriage because that's what they do and how they live. 

If others think it's perfectly acceptable and ok to have an open marriage or wife swap for example, why the need to be secretive about it? If it's so great why not encourage your children to think about it as well? Why it is hidden?


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> If others think it's perfectly acceptable and ok to have an open marriage or wife swap for example, why the need to be secretive about it? If it's so great why not encourage your children to think about it as well? Why it is hidden?


It's hidden because of people like you who judge others, and many (maybe not you, but I don't know) who will interfere, attempt to have children removed from a non-traditional home, etc. - or worse, up to and including physical violence. Just look at the history of mistreatment of LGBTQ people - which is still going on even where same sex marriage has been legalized - to see how awful people can be to others not like them.

As for us, we've encouraged our kids to be open-minded about the meaning of marriage, who can marry, whether marriage is even a good idea, and that we'd support them in however they choose to live their lives. They don't need to know the _specifics_ of our relationship to learn about alternatives - from us, from the news, from their friends. They're adults now, and if they ask us specific questions, we answer them. We don't try to _impose_ our values on them like some people want to do to us.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> Ok let's consider that philosophy of moneky see/monkey do.
> 
> But first let's set aside the obvious that people don't typically tell their kids what specific sexual activities they do in the privacy of their own bedroom and the fact that no child even wants to hear about what their parents do in bed. But for the sake of argument lets take what you are saying that kids will always do what their parents do.
> 
> ...


You are one of her two most important role models. They always know what's going on.


BigDaddyNY said:


> I've gone down this path in other threads and it lead nowhere, lol. I keep being told otherwise, but I find it difficult to believe that it doesn't impact the children. Honestly though I really cant say it does, but in my mind it seems pretty logical that it would or at least could. At the same time there are plenty of messed up kids with "normal" 2 person parents that are married.


I can say it does. My dad's focus on sex and attitude toward women, which was parsed out in small comments he expected me to ignore or not get certainly affected me and not in a good way. And that was before porn was mainstream and was still confined to a night table. His message was clear. The value of a woman lies in her sexiness. And he wasn't nearly as obsessed with it as some of the guys on here are.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

Married but Happy said:


> Marriage isn't necessary, IMO - and that of my wife. But it can be useful. We married because there are legal and financial incentives to do so built into the system which we needed to use. Why get married? Why not! If it serves our needs, we have every right to do so if we wish. We have no interest in polygamy, and no wish to marry multiple people in any legal sense. We have had polyamorous relationships, which have no legal basis (although you can create legal contracts to define the rights and responsibilities of the participants without violating laws on marriage).


And you can have polygamous marriages in the religious and social sense, even if you can't achieve it in the legal sphere.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

DownByTheRiver said:


> How do you expect your kids to date if they grow up thinking that marriage means multiple partners at once? Don't you think they're going to have some social problems if they approach dating like that? Don't you think that's why cults isolate their children and try to indoctrinate and groom new young people into the system?
> 
> And I don't know if you have kids, but if you have a teen daughter, do you want somebody double-teaming her like you described on here before? Because that's what you're teaching her.


First of all, a lot of kids of poly units end up monogamous, much like most kids of gays end up straight. Secondly, most of these kids notice that their friends have different parenting than they do. They just learn that all the options are available, and are not (usually) taught that either is superior over the over. As to your cult allusion, we don't typically isolate our children. We teach them that either way is fine as long as it's their choice, and not something that someone is forcing/pressuring them into. And for the record, I have 3 daughters, and a step daughter. All are fully aware of us being open and poly, and only one choose to be poly. None have an issue with us being poly and open, and none are pressured to follow in our footsteps. None of the sons have chosen to be poly or open either.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

BigDaddyNY said:


> I've gone down this path in other threads and it lead nowhere, lol. I keep being told otherwise, but I find it difficult to believe that it doesn't impact the children. Honestly though I really cant say it does, but in my mind it seems pretty logical that it would or at least could. At the same time there are plenty of messed up kids with "normal" 2 person parents that are married.


Indeed it does impact upon the children. Everything that happens impacts upon them. The question is whether it is for the better or the worse? And since those are subjective values, each impact can be both. Think about the impact of the parents that resulted in the woman who bucked tradition to become the ones who have changed the world. And a lot of time we say for the better.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

maquiscat said:


> First of all, a lot of kids of poly units end up monogamous, much like most kids of gays end up straight. Secondly, most of these kids notice that their friends have different parenting than they do. They just learn that all the options are available, and are not (usually) taught that either is superior over the over. As to your cult allusion, we don't typically isolate our children. We teach them that either way is fine as long as it's their choice, and not something that someone is forcing/pressuring them into. And for the record, I have 3 daughters, and a step daughter. All are fully aware of us being open and poly, and only one choose to be poly. None have an issue with us being poly and open, and none are pressured to follow in our footsteps. None of the sons have chosen to be poly or open either.





maquiscat said:


> Indeed it does impact upon the children. Everything that happens impacts upon them. The question is whether it is for the better or the worse? And since those are subjective values, each impact can be both. Think about the impact of the parents that resulted in the woman who bucked tradition to become the ones who have changed the world. And a lot of time we say for the better.


These are very good responses and I agree with everything you have said here. 

However to bring this theoretical discussion of the impact on children back to something somewhat relevant to the OP's situation, the activities described by the OP are more closely related to swinging than to poly and the difference in impact to the whole family between poly and swinging is significant. 

A poly relationship is often 24/7 and is an actual lifestyle. The participants often live their life openly and it is openly apparent to friends, family, coworkers, the community etc etc. 

And even though many swingers will use the term "The Lifestyle", the reality is their lives are 99.99% traditional. The actual swinging is usually a purely recreational activity they do for a number of hours on a Saturday night maybe a handful to a few handfuls of nights in a year. 

The other 350some days of the year they are completely traditional and from the outside looking on, they are indistinguishable from another other traditional couple. 

Swinging is also typically something a couple does together as a couple as part of their marital sexual dynamic. Even though other people are present, it actually is a marital sexual activity. 

Our kids are 17 and 19. We have raised them to be safe, responsible, respectful, consenting and compassionate in relationships and that relationships and sexual orientations come in a variety of flavors and there is no one-size-fits-all or any one pidgeon hole that everyone must fit. 

And for the last several years we have been a traditional couple and will likely be so indefinately going forward. 

So for us, it would simply not be germane to any reasonable conversation to tell a 17 year old and a 19 year that we have had others in our marital bed. It would in fact be merely talking about our sex acts which will be of no benefit or relevance to any discussion. And no kid wants to hear about what their parents do in bed anyway.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

EssexUKMale said:


> Actually think your right about voyeurism. Because best way I can put it is. I’m genuinely more attracted to my wife then any other woman. Of course I do find other women attractive. But generally put my wife number 1. Watching her with the guy was kinda like watching my favourite porn start performing.


According to some psychology books I have read, some people need others to help them value their possessions. So in other words you are married to your wife, but you struggle to enjoy that to the fullest unless someone else comes along and enthusiastically wants what you have.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Married but Happy said:


> It's hidden because of people like you who judge others, and many (maybe not you, but I don't know) who will interfere, attempt to have children removed from a non-traditional home, etc. - or worse, up to and including physical violence. Just look at the history of mistreatment of LGBTQ people - which is still going on even where same sex marriage has been legalized - to see how awful people can be to others not like them.
> 
> As for us, we've encouraged our kids to be open-minded about the meaning of marriage, who can marry, whether marriage is even a good idea, and that we'd support them in however they choose to live their lives. They don't need to know the _specifics_ of our relationship to learn about alternatives - from us, from the news, from their friends. They're adults now, and if they ask us specific questions, we answer them. We don't try to _impose_ our values on them like some people want to do to us.


I don't hide my faith and I am often judged for that.lts crazy to say that society judges those who are swingers for example. Or that they would have their children taken away? That's just crazy, of course they wouldn't. 
Anything goes these days and it's often people who wont have casual sex or sleep with multiple partners who are judged more. 

If I was at peace about something and thought it was completely acceptable then I would have no reason to hide it from my children.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> These are very good responses and I agree with everything you have said here.
> 
> However to bring this theoretical discussion of the impact on children back to something somewhat relevant to the OP's situation, the activities described by the OP are more closely related to swinging than to poly and the difference in impact to the whole family between poly and swinging is significant.
> 
> ...


Goodness how many times must this be said. NO ONE is suggesting you say a single word about sex acts. However I dont understand why you dont think it's appropriate to talk to your children about the fact that you don't think married people have to have sex just with each other. If you are so laid back about it then why hide it from them. Are you afraid of their reaction? Worried they may think less of you?


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> I looked up the dictionary definition. Its all there.
> IF your relationship was that good, there would be no need to cheapen it with casual sex. I have no idea why you would treat each other that way.


i think the science, shaky as it might be, is that more intellegent people want to open that pandora's box, and see what swinging is like. they can disassociate being married and consensual non-monagamy, so both concepts stay in their own separate mental bins.

So WHY? intelligent people just curious about what might happen, and setting up a series of experiments to "find out".


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

Diana7 said:


> If I was at peace about something and thought it was completely acceptable then I would have no reason to hide it from my children.


So then you are not at peace with having straight monogamous sex? Or do you actually have sex in front of your kids?


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Talker67 said:


> i think the science, shaky as it might be, is that more intellegent people want to open that pandora's box, and see what swinging is like. they can disassociate being married and consensual non-monagamy, so both concepts stay in their own separate mental bins.
> 
> So WHY? intelligent people just curious about what might happen, and setting up a series of experiments to "find out".


I would say that the more intelligent would be able to recognize the many dangers of acting that way.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Diana7 said:


> I would say that the more intelligent would be able to recognize the many dangers of acting that way.


I’m not sure actual IQ has anything to do with it.

But how one views risk most certainly does. 

Different people have differing tolerances for risk and different philosophies on risk management and mitigation. 

Speaking only for myself, risk management was a major component of how we approached getting into swinging. 

The first step of that process was recognizing that strict monogamy carries its own risks and its own dangers. Monogamy carries its own set of risks rather than eliminates or shields from risk. 

Step 2 was identifying risks of both monogamy and consensual nonmonogamy.

Step 3 was learning about risk reduction and risk mitigation strategies. 

And step 4 was monitoring and ongoing assessment.

Some people we see something they perceive as risky and will say, “nope, there’s risk there!” and run the other way. 

Others will acknowledge the risks, weigh the pros and cons, look into risk management and mitigation procedures and then institute ongoing risk awareness and evaluation and address any red flags as they appear. 

If someone thinks nonmonogamy is too risky for them so they reject that idea, that is fair and fine. If risk analysis determines that carries too much risk for that person or situation, that would be a sign of intelligence. 

But only a fool would think that monogamy is risk free and without its own set of hazards and pitfalls.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> I’m not sure actual IQ has anything to do with it.
> 
> But how one views risk most certainly does.
> 
> ...


In your opinion, which has more risk than the other, or are they equal?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

BigDaddyNY said:


> In your opinion, which has more risk than the other, or are they equal?


Depends on the people and the circumstances and environment they are in. 

Some people cannot function outside the structure of socialized and theologically mandated monogamy.

Some people cannot function in long term monogamy. 

And our environments and circumstances will influence that.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

BigDaddyNY said:


> In your opinion, which has more risk than the other, or are they equal?


And the question that would have to be asked to your question is - more risk of what???


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> And the question that would have to be asked to your question is - more risk of what???


Good question. I understood risk, in this context, to be risk to the stability and longevity of the relationship.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

BigDaddyNY said:


> In your opinion, which has more risk than the other, or are they equal?


I would have to say that such was a subjective value. Looking at the exact same situation, you might assess more risk for monogamy, whereas I might assess more risk for swinging, or whatever else. (I was just throwing things together for example sake, with no intent on how we each see things). That risk might even change with time, and relationships and so many other factors. I really doubt that it could be as cut and dry as all that.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Good question. I understood risk, in this context, to be risk to the stability and longevity of the relationship.


again, it would depend on the people, environment and circumstances. 

Some people are relationship people and good candidates for a LTR and some people are not, regardless of whichever sexual paradigm they ascribe. 

Some people value relationships and have good relationship skills, and some people do not. 

Environment and circumstances matter as well. If a couple are in a small, isolated church community in the middle of Montana, that will have different influences than if they are in Los Vegas. Again regardless of what sexual paradigm they follow. 

A rock star is going to have different set of relationship stressors than will an accountant. 

A Bikini Supermodel will have a different set of relationship stressors than will a grade school teacher. 

What's more stable and has better odds for longevity? an accountant and grade school teacher that swing in remote part of Montana, or a monogamous rock star and bikini model in Vegas? 

All relationships are complex and have a lot of moving parts. This is why we can't pigeon hole them all into some kind of one-size-fits-all domain. Different people in different evironments under different circumstances may need different paradigms than others.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

maquiscat said:


> So then you are not at peace with having straight monogamous sex? Or do you actually have sex in front of your kids?


With regards to @Diana7 saying that lifestyles shouldn't be hidden from immediate family, I am fairly certain she is talking about having a privileged and civilized discussion with family. This is something that the OP needs to consider as well. 

As with all forms of alternate sexual orientations the LGBT+ community is now situated in society so that they can come out and let people know who they are verbally. By absolutely no means does this mean that members of this community have to pull down their pants and allow everyone to watch everything.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

BigDaddyNY said:


> In your opinion, which has more risk than the other, or are they equal?


Good question, my thought is that answer would be based on individual perception of the activity rather that an absolutism.

Like riding a motorcycle, sky diving, even horseback riding, for a few of the many examples. 

For another example I guess, I myself think swinging is not a good thing for me and mine but I won't answer that for other groups but would recommend not.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> again, it would depend on the people, environment and circumstances.
> 
> Some people are relationship people and good candidates for a LTR and some people are not, regardless of whichever sexual paradigm they ascribe.
> 
> ...


I certainly agree that some people just aren’t cut out for a LTR and there probably isn’t any relationship lifestyle configuration that will change that and make them successful in a LTR.

When you say different stressors exist for a school teacher vs a supermodel or rock star, I think you mean different temptations, correct? At least for the purpose of discussing sexual relationships. There are obviously other stressors for those individuals as well. Are you suggesting that the existence of those temptations may necessitate a non-monogamous lifestyle if they expect to stay in a marriage? That seems to be a pretty cynical view of people. And really, how many swingers does that apply to? You’ve said all the swingers you’ve met were more like the teacher and accountant than the rock star and supermodel. They aren’t living in those hyper tempting environments. Yet they felt the temptations would still be too great?

What I was thinking about was the general and inherent risks of monogamy and consensual non-monogamy as they apply to maintaining a LTR.

The risk of monogamy seems to only be the fact that people will give in to temptation. The risk that we will give into our carnal desires if we find ourselves in the “perfect storm” that overcomes our will power to be faithful. Or that we will seek emotional gratification and satisfaction from someone other than our spouse. That can effectively be mitigated with boundaries and not allowing yourself to get into those tempting situations. Obviously you can’t eliminate all risk, but after more than 3 decades of marriage I can say it isn’t hard to avoid most of those situations and in the rare event you can’t avoid them you can recognize them and react appropriately. 

Non-monogamy will have all those same risks, but instead of avoiding the temping situations you are jumping right into it. If you do it right you will have talked, set boundaries, etc. At the end of the day they are still choosing to engage with others in the most intimate of ways. That does two things. It is directing intimacy and emotional energy at others, which was previously only given to your spouse. It also opens up an opportunity to ignite a spark that you never expected. Once you are deep into that lifestyle I would think the risk goes down as you become more comfortable with it. That first step into it though carries a huge risk. You have no idea how you or your spouse will react. Even with all the planning in the world it is all theoretical until you put it into practice. Once you engage in it you can’t take it back. And in cases like the OP here, they have established that they can do swinging. Now he is looking to change it up and have his wife do something a little more solo as a hot wife. That is yet another risk level and opportunity to not go as expected. Then maybe that morphs into trying cuckolding. That is an even higher level of risk.

It sounds to me that non-monogamy has the higher inherent risk of damaging a LTR. If nothing else it has built in opportunities for creating risk. If a husband and wife are willing to risk their marriage I say let them roll the dice. However, when children are involved I sure hope they are part of the risk assessment process. Now you are rolling the dice with your marriage and the lives of your children.

Do you feel that if you and your wife didn’t get into swinging that you or she would have been driven to cheat?


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Along with careers ie rockstar vs grocery store staff, there are two categories further; wealthy vs poor or middle financial range.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Good question, my thought is that answer would be based on individual perception of the activity rather that an absolutism.
> 
> Like riding a motorcycle, sky diving, even horseback riding, for a few of the many examples.
> 
> For another example I guess, I myself think swinging is not a good thing for me and mine but I won't answer that for other groups but would recommend not.


Good point. There are more risks than just sex related issues that can break a marriage. Engaging in an activity that kills you will break the marriage too, lol. 

Maybe it really does boils down to someone's risk tolerance vs how badly they want to engage in a activity. There are things I would do before I had kids that were risky, but I would avoid with small kids at home. For some the 30x risk of dying in a motor cycle accident vs a car won't stop them from doing it, kids or not. 

This is just me, but the thing with swinging in particular is I can get the same thrill at home, safe and sound with my wife and near zero risk. I can't think of how you can get the same thrill of a motorcycle without taking on that risk. Is sex during swinging really that much better than just with your spouse?


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Good point. There are more risks than just sex related issues that can break a marriage. Engaging in an activity that kills you will break the marriage too, lol.
> 
> Maybe it really does boils down to someone's risk tolerance vs how badly they want to engage in a activity. There are things I would do before I had kids that were risky, but I would avoid with small kids at home. For some the 30x risk of dying in a motor cycle accident vs a car won't stop them from doing it, kids or not.
> 
> This is just me, but the thing with swinging in particular is I can get the same thrill at home, safe and sound with my wife and near zero risk. I can't think of how you can get the same thrill of a motorcycle without taking on that risk. Is sex during swinging really that much better than just with your spouse?


That I myself wouldn't know because we don't swing 🙄


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## 346745 (Oct 7, 2020)

Diana7 said:


> I looked up the dictionary definition. Its all there.
> IF your relationship was that good, there would be no need to cheapen it with casual sex. I have no idea why you would treat each other that way.


everyone is different. every marriage is different. Until we walk a mile in their shoes ...


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> That I myself wouldn't know because we don't swing 🙄


True, I really don't know.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

BigDaddyNY said:


> This is just me, but the thing with swinging in particular is I can get the same thrill at home, safe and sound with my wife and near zero risk.


Can you? How do you know? Certainly you can imagine, but unless you experience it, can you know? Maybe it's actually a different kind of thrill. I imagine that the thrill I would get from skydiving would be different from that of roller coasters, but I don't know. For that matter the fear maybe be different, were I to try each. Right now the fear is the same, but it is a fear of the imagined, the fear to try, and I know, intellectually, that such will be different from the fear born of experience. 



> Is sex during swinging really that much better than just with your spouse?


There is an error of absolutism here. Being different is not automatically better nor worse. It's like saying which is better, pizza or spaghetti? While you may prefer pizza one day, thus making it better that day, you may prefer the spaghetti another, making it the better one then.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

BigDaddyNY said:


> However, when children are involved I sure hope they are part of the risk assessment process. Now you are rolling the dice with your marriage and the lives of your children.


While true enough, is it really that much more than a risk than any of the other factors that puts a marriage at risk? When given other issues, like addictions, abuse, neglect, non sexual risky behavior, even career choices sometimes, how are they any less of a gamble to marriage, spouse and children? And we see those issues come up time and time again among these forums.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

maquiscat said:


> Can you? How do you know? Certainly you can imagine, but unless you experience it, can you know? Maybe it's actually a different kind of thrill. I imagine that the thrill I would get from skydiving would be different from that of roller coasters, but I don't know. For that matter the fear maybe be different, were I to try each. Right now the fear is the same, but it is a fear of the imagined, the fear to try, and I know, intellectually, that such will be different from the fear born of experience.
> 
> There is an error of absolutism here. Being different is not automatically better nor worse. It's like saying which is better, pizza or spaghetti? While you may prefer pizza one day, thus making it better that day, you may prefer the spaghetti another, making it the better one then.


First, pizza with spaghetti on it is best. You should know that, you are the one that says he's greedy 

I did actually answer your first question in a subsequent post. You are right I don't know for sure if the sex would be better or worse. However, with the exception of someone that is just somehow terrible in bed there isn't going to be a night and day difference in sex. There will be subtleties of differences, but you are still engaging in intercourse with another person.

I understand that one may not inherently be better or worse than the other. So it comes back to risk tolerance, right? Until you have actually done it, you have to decide is the risk worth what you imagine you will get out of it. That is assuming you agree swinging inherently has more risk than not swinging. Do you think it is inherently more risky? Also, I've seen most people here that engage in swinging state that the sex is still better with their spouse. So maybe it is inherently better?



maquiscat said:


> While true enough, is it really that much more than a risk than any of the other factors that puts a marriage at risk? When given other issues, like addictions, abuse, neglect, non sexual risky behavior, even career choices sometimes, how are they any less of a gamble to marriage, spouse and children? And we see those issues come up time and time again among these forums.


All of those things are absolutely risk factors, but they can occur in a monogamous or non-monogamous marriage. Everything is equal, except by considering and stepping into swinging you are knowingly adding in a new risk. A risk that only exists in the non-monogamous marriage.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

The subtleties between women partners can also be great difference! When single and dating, many women as partners were as different as night and day!

Now, at the 70yo stage, maybe not so much, but hey one never knows.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

@BigDaddyNY You’re trying to make this about cheating. 

As I stated in the other thread, I personally do not believe swinging and cheating are intrinsically related one way or another.

Swinging is not an “Anti Cheat Mechanism.” It will not prevent someone who wants to cheat from doing so.

Nor do I believe that it will give someone the desire to cheat who does not wish to do so.

In my estimation people do not swing to prevent cheating (or at least they shouldn’t) 
They swing because they want to and want to participate in that activity.

Some may disagree or have their own statistics to show whatever they want, but I personally don’t think swinging and cheating have anything to do with each other one way or another. 

And on another note, I always come away from your posts feeling like you are trying to somehow justify monogamy. I’m not sure if you are trying to justify it to those of who have practiced nonmonogamy, or if you are trying to justify it yourself.

Either way, You do not need to do that. If you believe monogamy is the better paradigm for you, then own it, embrace it and live it.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> The subtleties between women partners can also be great difference! When single and dating, many women as partners were as different as night and day!
> 
> Now, at the 70yo stage, maybe not so much, but hey one never knows.


I agree about night and day. No two people are alike. IMHO you hit the reset button every time you engage with someone new.

I’m not necessarily saying better, and I’m not necessarily saying worse. But it is hitting the reset button. 

And frankly, that’s how I think it should be. We are all unique individuals and bring our own chemistry and mojo to the table. 

People are not simply genitalia that all fits the same. We are all unique and special and all bring our special gifts and talents in our own way.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> @BigDaddyNY You’re trying to make this about cheating.
> 
> As I stated in the other thread, I personally do not believe swinging and cheating are intrinsically related one way or another.
> 
> ...


I'm not trying to justify monogamy, at least I didn't think I was. I certainly don't need to justify it to myself. There might be some reaffirmation going on, but I'm comfortable in my monogamy. 

Sorry if I get a combative tone sometimes. It is just my passion for the topic coming through. I don't place a higher value on anything in my life than I do on my wife and kids. It triggers a pretty strong response, even in a discussion, when presented with something I perceive as a threat. In spite of what you may think I do hear and try to assimilate a lot of what you are saying. It just seems to bring up more questions.

I wasn't really thinking of swinging as cheat prevention. I was talking about the unexpected result of engaging in sex with someone other than your spouse. If you've never done it before and you make that leap into swinging you don't know what the outcome will be. You don't know what your feelings will be until the act can't be undone. What if it damages your connection? What if you find you are more attracted to the new person? What if you suddenly feel guilty or jealousy? I guess I'm too risk adverse to things that could harm my marriage to even consider the possibility of doing this, let alone really contemplating doing it and following through with it. It's just kind of like, "Wow! how could someone do this?" I think that is what I'm expressing to you.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

BigDaddyNY said:


> In your opinion, which has more risk than the other, or are they equal?


We considered the risks very carefully, initially for polyamorous relationships (which we established just a few months after meeting each other), and later for swinging and an open relationship (which we structured to work for us). We also knew our nature was not to be monogamous unless we had to be for whatever reason. We're careful planners, so looked at various scenarios and risk factors in detail, potential consequences, and benefits - and decided to pursue the experience. We reevaluated after any experiences that diverged from expectations, and worked on things that could have caused problems. Given _our_ relationship and the way we approach things, we figured that the risks to our relationship were inconsequential, and that proved to be the case - for us. Mundane risks that most people accept as a matter of course were far more concerning. On the other hand, the experiences and rewards were substantial, and could not have been achieved in any other way. We are _very_ happy with how things went.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

maquiscat said:


> Being different is not automatically better nor worse. It's like saying which is better, pizza or spaghetti? While you may prefer pizza one day, thus making it better that day, you may prefer the spaghetti another, making it the better one then.


Exactly. As one of our swinger friends once said, "We can have filet mignon sex every day with each other, but sometimes we just want chicken." In other words, always having the same thing, even if it's great, _could_ become boring or at least no longer special. Variety provides a spice of its own. Sex between us is sometimes extraordinary, but most of the time it's just _really_ good. Now, sex with someone else is _at least_ going to be different, maybe better in some particular, or worse in some other particular, but it WILL contain surprises and novelty - almost always pleasant (in our experience).


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

maquiscat said:


> Can you? How do you know? Certainly you can imagine, but unless you experience it, can you know? Maybe it's actually a different kind of thrill. I imagine that the thrill I would get from skydiving would be different from that of roller coasters, but I don't know. For that matter the fear maybe be different, were I to try each. Right now the fear is the same, but it is a fear of the imagined, the fear to try, and I know, intellectually, that such will be different from the fear born of experience.


In my experience they are different thrills.

I have been on a roller coaster, and used to do skydiving, first static line then free fall.

That said for what it’s worth, I enjoyed falling out of aeroplanes, yet going on a roller coaster terrified me, to the point I won’t go on a roller coaster ever again.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Married but Happy said:


> We considered the risks very carefully, initially for polyamorous relationships (which we established just a few months after meeting each other), and later for swinging and an open relationship (which we structured to work for us). We also knew our nature was not to be monogamous unless we had to be for whatever reason. We're careful planners, so looked at various scenarios and risk factors in detail, potential consequences, and benefits - and decided to pursue the experience. We reevaluated after any experiences that diverged from expectations, and worked on things that could have caused problems. Given _our_ relationship and the way we approach things, we figured that the risks to our relationship were inconsequential, and that proved to be the case - for us. Mundane risks that most people accept as a matter of course were far more concerning. On the other hand, the experiences and rewards were substantial, and could not have been achieved in any other way. We are _very_ happy with how things went.


Same.

I agree with everything said here. 

We spent almost a full year researching it, reading books and articles, asking questions on actual swinging websites and forums before we even met another couple. 

And then it was almost another year to the day, after meeting people, going to clubs etc and taking smal, incremental baby steps until we had actual intercourse with another couple. 

So it was essentially 2 years of heart to heart discussions, research, learning about it, talking with experiences swingers etc before actually having PIV with anyone else. 

I know some people that just took the plunge and dived in headfirst.

I knew other people that were a lot more tentative and skittish than us. 

I don’t think our experience getting into it was unusual either way.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

BigDaddyNY said:


> . I was talking about the unexpected result of engaging in sex with someone other than your spouse. If you've never done it before and you make that leap into swinging you don't know what the outcome will be. You don't know what your feelings will be until the act can't be undone. What if it damages your connection? What if you find you are more attracted to the new person? What if you suddenly feel guilty or jealousy? I guess I'm too risk adverse to things that could harm my marriage to even consider the possibility of doing this, let alone really contemplating doing it and following through with it. It's just kind of like, "Wow! how could someone do this?" I think that is what I'm expressing to you.


So is the fact that you are monogamous the reason why you haven't cheated or haven't fallen for someone else? If you hadn't been monogamous, do you assume that you would have fallen for someone else by now? Is your connection based on the fact you haven't been with anyone else? Is the fact you've only been with her the reason you aren't attracted to any others? Is your connection and attraction and love and esteem based on the fact you have only been with one? 

Is the reason your wife hasn't cheated or hasn't fallen for someone else because she hasn't been with anyone else? 

Do you have any other merits besides the exclusion of others that has kept you two together? 

See it looks a little different when you flip it around like that doesn't it. 

Now are there risks of those things you mention above happening? Yes of course those are risks. But do those things happen in the monogamous world? The answer to that of course is yes they happen all the time so much that other than some tongue-clicking by the gossipy old lady around the office water cooler, no one really bats an eye when it happens in the monogamous world. People that go 50 years without any kind of hanky panky or some period of serious marital discord are the actual surprises in the world. 

So if you are think that consensual nonmonogamy would lead to those things happening, does that mean that you think monogamy prevents them? .........Because it doesn't. Those things happen all the time in the monogamous world and other than some idle gossip in the office or at the nieghborhood lady's bridge club, doesn't raise an eyebrow. 

Now I understand the argument that intentionally pursuing nonmonogamy would be like walking into the lion's den as opposed to the lion just pouncing on you from behind the bushes as you walked through the jungle and I see the point. 

But if someone were to intentionally walk into the lion's den, I would hope that person would have educated himself on the nature and habits and tendencies of the lion and was appropriately prepared to protect himself.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> I’m not sure actual IQ has anything to do with it.
> 
> But how one views risk most certainly does.
> 
> ...


I see no risks with monogamy. As for swinging, it's not risks that would prevent us from doing that, it's the knowledge that to us it's not marriage unless there is faithfulness.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> Same.
> 
> I agree with everything said here.
> 
> ...


For most people it's obvious that it would be bad for the marriage. No need at all for weighing anything up.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> So is the fact that you are monogamous the reason why you haven't cheated or haven't fallen for someone else?


I think choosing to be monogamous means I've chosen not to cheat, not fall for someone else, nor allow myself to be put into situations where I could give another person the wrong impression about my feelings.



oldshirt said:


> If you hadn't been monogamous, do you assume that you would have fallen for someone else by now?


This is totally hypothetical, so it is basically impossible for me to answer. I know that I would be concerned about that risk, but I can't say I would or would not for certain. That is the crux of what I'm getting at.



oldshirt said:


> Is your connection based on the fact you haven't been with anyone else?


Impossible to say for sure. I think it may be a deeper connection because I haven't been with anyone else, but no way to prove it. I do know it is a special connection I have with her, because she is the only one I've been with, something I've never shared with another person.



oldshirt said:


> Is the fact you've only been with her the reason you aren't attracted to any others?


Who said I'm not attracted to others? I've felt some level of attraction to other women. Rarely past the point of thinking she is cute, or she looks pretty sexy. I just never allowed it to go past that point.



oldshirt said:


> Is your connection and attraction and love and esteem based on the fact you have only been with one?


It is not. I never associated the love I feel for her specifically with the fact that I've only ever been with one person. I had prior girlfriends that I felt a strong attraction to and maybe puppy love. I said I love you to my wife before we had sex for the first time, so I don't think I can relate it to sexual encounters.



oldshirt said:


> Is the reason your wife hasn't cheated or hasn't fallen for someone else because she hasn't been with anyone else?


I'm not the only person my wife has been with, she was in love and engaged prior to us meeting. So, no that isn't why she hasn't cheated. She hasn't cheated because we chose to be in a monogamous marriage and we are loyal to each other that way.



oldshirt said:


> Do you have any other merits besides the exclusion of others that has kept you two together?


Of course, many.

I'm pretty sure you meant for those to be rhetorical questions, but I felt like answering them.




oldshirt said:


> See it looks a little different when you flip it around like that doesn't it.
> 
> Now are there risks of those things you mention above happening? Yes of course those are risks. But do those things happen in the monogamous world? The answer to that of course is yes they happen all the time so much that other than some tongue-clicking by the gossipy old lady around the office water cooler, no one really bats an eye when it happens in the monogamous world. People that go 50 years without any kind of hanky panky or some period of serious marital discord are the actual surprises in the world.
> 
> So if you are think that consensual nonmonogamy would lead to those things happening, does that mean that you think monogamy prevents them? .........Because it doesn't. Those things happen all the time in the monogamous world and other than some idle gossip in the office or at the nieghborhood lady's bridge club, doesn't raise an eyebrow.


This was part of the point I was making. Infidelity is going to happen in both. The difference is monogamy and doing all the things to stay monogamous discourage infidelity, including not engaging with the opposite sex in any intimate way, physical or verbal. non-monogamy invites and welcomes those behaviors that so often lead to infidelity.



oldshirt said:


> Now I understand the argument that intentionally pursuing nonmonogamy would be like walking into the lion's den as opposed to the lion just pouncing on you from behind the bushes as you walked through the jungle and I see the point.
> 
> But if someone were to intentionally walk into the lion's den, I would hope that person would have educated himself on the nature and habits and tendencies of the lion and was appropriately prepared to protect himself.


Now we are finally at my point. You would HOPE that they would educate themselves, but the thread that spurred a lot of this on was the exact opposite and shows how not all educate themselves. And I know he and his wife aren't the only ones where it all went wrong. He was incredibly lucky that he had a strong marriage to start and it survived that whole debacle. He has been in a mental nightmare for years thanks to trying out non-monogamy. As I hear it often said, the marriage must be strong before going into something like this. Even then it is a crap shoot. I know there was basically zero planning in his case, but what is enough planning? You don't really know. The question is how often does that happen? There are lots of successful swinging marriages, but how many failures are there that caused irreparable harm to a marriage?

You seem to be insisting that stepping into non-monogamy poses no greater risk to a marriage than monogamy, but it does. It just does. I'll take my chances being on guard in the jungle and avoid the lion's den.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

badsanta said:


> With regards to @Diana7 saying that lifestyles shouldn't be hidden from immediate family, I am fairly certain she is talking about having a privileged and civilized discussion with family. This is something that the OP needs to consider as well.
> 
> As with all forms of alternate sexual orientations the LGBT+ community is now situated in society so that they can come out and let people know who they are verbally. By absolutely no means does this mean that members of this community have to pull down their pants and allow everyone to watch everything.


While I agree with you, and I even recognized to a point what she might have been trying to say, her wording indicated sharing a lot more than discussion. May not have been her intent, but it was there. Had she said something about not discussing it with them, I might have reacted differently. But given her past comments and such, I wanted to point out the ridiculousness of her wording.


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## 346745 (Oct 7, 2020)

i've enjoyed the back and forth in this post.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

BigDaddyNY said:


> First, pizza with spaghetti on it is best. You should know that, you are the one that says he's greedy
> 
> I did actually answer your first question in a subsequent post. You are right I don't know for sure if the sex would be better or worse. However, with the exception of someone that is just somehow terrible in bed there isn't going to be a night and day difference in sex. There will be subtleties of differences, but you are still engaging in intercourse with another person.
> 
> ...


To be honest I know for sure 100% that sex is way better with Mr D than it would be with others outside my marriage. 
This is mainly because I am totally put off guys if they think casual sex is ok. They hold no appeal for me at all. 
Now on the other hand, a guy like Mr D who is faithful, has self control and strong moral values, yep He is very sexy.🥰😉


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

maquiscat said:


> While I agree with you, and I even recognized to a point what she might have been trying to say, her wording indicated sharing a lot more than discussion. May not have been her intent, but it was there. Had she said something about not discussing it with them, I might have reacted differently. But given her past comments and such, I wanted to point out the ridiculousness of her wording.


There is no way that I would suggest a parent shared details of their sex life with their children. However being open and honest about whether your own marriage is monogamous or not should be easy to do if you think what you do is good and acceptable.
If something is hidden then that speaks of shame and of not wanting your children to know.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> this is about shame to you isn’t it.
> 
> YOU are the one wanting people to feel shame for having different beliefs and practices than you. You want to rub their noses in your own sense of righteousness and moral superiority.
> 
> ...


Well I have clearly touched a nerve there. Plus your highly offensive words are totally and completely wrong. 

You clearly feel very uncomfortable about discussing the subject with your adult/ nearly adult children. 
What I would like to see is parents being honest with their older children about their lives and values. 
If you have to keep them hidden and a secret then what does that say? If you think that swinging is a perfectly acceptable and positive thing to do then it shouldn't just be a natural thing to talk about as an alternative to monogamy? 
Why is so important to you that your children think you have been faithful and not had sex outside your marriage? 

I just don't understand what it is you fear about them knowing? 

You know full well what I am saying about not discussing my 'marital sex life' in that way but you choose not to understand. Its the values we live by and that are important to us that we should surely be communicating to our children. Yours are different from mine, that's fine, but why the need to hide them?

As we keep being told they are countless swingers now so just be honest about it. 

Oh and I couldn't care less whether people feel shame or not. Its their choice.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

I don't know how you jumped to pedophilia. I've been hitting on the children thing for two reasons.

First is risk. Once you are successfully in the swinging lifestyle I think the risk goes down considerably. However, that first step entails considerable risk. When the couple has children it adds even more gravity to that risk. You didn't seem to want to admit that the first step is risky. You can plan and plan and still not know how it will turn out until it can't be undone.

The second is about discussing your relationship, not the nitty gritty of sex. I assume a homosexual will share that fact with their children. They aren't and shouldn't be ashamed of their lifestyle choices. Certainly not with their own children. Being homosexual has nothing to do with anything except your sexual attraction. So by extension I'm wondering why you don't share your choice to swing/be non-monogamous? It too is just about your sexual attraction. Maybe I'm looking at this wrong, but that is where I'm coming from. I am not talking about the actual sex acts.

As @Diana7 said, we aren't talking about discussing this with toddlers. Every discussion like this has to be age appropriate.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

I just had a thought. Maybe you don't consider swinging to be a relationship at all. It is nothing more than a sex act and similar to choosing a particular position. Your chosen position is just on top of someone other than your spouse. Is that the case?

If so, that is probably why we have this disconnect with discussing it with children, even adult children. I can't separate sex from a relationship. I think if you are having sex with someone it is a relationship, not just a sex act or some kind of transaction. Maybe when you are having sex with someone other than your spouse you just see them as some form of a sex toy or sex doll. Is that the way you see it?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

@Diana7
@Bigdaddynyc

We are never going to agree on this. I am never going to live within your idea of morality and religious beliefs.

Please let this go before we get another thread closed by this ridiculous bickering. 

I will compromise in that if at some point in the future, it becomes relevant and beneficial to tell the kids, I might consider at that time if I believe it is in benefit to THEM.

But unless that occurs, I’m simply not going to. 

If it is important to you “win” this disagreement, you may rebut this post and have the last word and declare your own victory.

But I urge you to just accept we don’t agree and let it go and walk away before we all get sent to the penalty box and get another thread closed.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Just want to add that it's not just about my faith. I saw the importance of monogamy before that.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

Diana7 said:


> If something is hidden then that speaks of shame and of not wanting your children to know.


Not necessarily. And I am not limiting this to children per se. Aside from the idea that one doesn't hide something but doesn't announce it either, people may not talk about certain situations with others simply because they don't want to start the drama. For example, I've got a couple of cousins who are uber Christians. While my own parents have accepted my poly marriage without question (other than are you happy types of questions), these family members would raise a hue and cry and try to force other family members to take sides. Shame doesn't have to be the motivating factor. In some states (I can't speak for how it would go in the UK), the people in charge of CPS can be very conservative, and there have been cases where they try to take children away from same sex couples, even though one was the child's only parent. So while there is no shame present, such people might keep things hidden until the children are adults. Personally, we don't hide our marriage from the grandchildren. We don't go out of our way to say that this is what is happening either. If they have questions we then answer them honestly as appropriate to their age. Otherwise it is there right in front of them, and so far there has been no issues or confusion.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

BigDaddyNY said:


> I just had a thought. Maybe you don't consider swinging to be a relationship at all. It is nothing more than a sex act and similar to choosing a particular position. Your chosen position is just on top of someone other than your spouse. Is that the case?


For most swingers, sex doesn't automatically equal relationship, or at least not intimate want to spend the rest of my life with you relationship. After all relationships come in all shapes including friends as varying closeness, family, etc. While for some there has to at least be some level of friendship before sex can happen, it still usually isn't at the emotionally intimate level.



> If so, that is probably why we have this disconnect with discussing it with children, even adult children. I can't separate sex from a relationship. I think if you are having sex with someone it is a relationship, not just a sex act or some kind of transaction. Maybe when you are having sex with someone other than your spouse you just see them as some form of a sex toy or sex doll. Is that the way you see it?


I can't speak for everyone out there of course, but in my experience, it's not that disconnected that we are viewing the sex partner as an object. To me what you are saying would be equivalent to seeing someone you play a sport with as a piece of sports equipment. Most of us still see our partners as people, and we are interested in mutual satisfaction in the activity, much as we would if we were playing a sport with them, or doing a project together for fun.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

maquiscat said:


> Not necessarily. And I am not limiting this to children per se. Aside from the idea that one doesn't hide something but doesn't announce it either, people may not talk about certain situations with others simply because they don't want to start the drama. For example, I've got a couple of cousins who are uber Christians. While my own parents have accepted my poly marriage without question (other than are you happy types of questions), these family members would raise a hue and cry and try to force other family members to take sides. Shame doesn't have to be the motivating factor. In some states (I can't speak for how it would go in the UK), the people in charge of CPS can be very conservative, and there have been cases where they try to take children away from same sex couples, even though one was the child's only parent. So while there is no shame present, such people might keep things hidden until the children are adults. Personally, we don't hide our marriage from the grandchildren. We don't go out of our way to say that this is what is happening either. If they have questions we then answer them honestly as appropriate to their age. Otherwise it is there right in front of them, and so far there has been no issues or confusion.


We are talking about adult or near adult children here. Mid to older teens. Not under 10's.
Officials here are more likely to stop Christians couples from, say, adopting children rather than gay couples. 
I just think its very important to try and pass on our values and views on marriage and faithfulness/or not. If things are kept secret from even our own children then I have to wonder why.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

Diana7 said:


> We are talking about adult or near adult children here. Not under 5's.


Even so, that whole point about people who would raise fits over it, is still a valid point and does not even get near to a shame issue. I consider myself fortunate that I raised my kids right that when such things are presented to them, they are able to say to each their own even if they don't feel it is for them. Shame is not always the factor in not discussing it with one's children. Think of it this way. A couple who swings might not be ashamed of swinging in and of itself, but if they know that one of their adult children is going to throw a hissy fit and keep the grandchildren away, for something that the grandchildren would not even be exposed to, then the couple won't say anything so as to not upset their adult child's sensibilities, not because they are ashamed of it.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

maquiscat said:


> Even so, that whole point about people who would raise fits over it, is still a valid point and does not even get near to a shame issue. I consider myself fortunate that I raised my kids right that when such things are presented to them, they are able to say to each their own even if they don't feel it is for them. Shame is not always the factor in not discussing it with one's children. Think of it this way. A couple who swings might not be ashamed of swinging in and of itself, but if they know that one of their adult children is going to throw a hissy fit and keep the grandchildren away, for something that the grandchildren would not even be exposed to, then the couple won't say anything so as to not upset their adult child's sensibilities, not because they are ashamed of it.


If children love and respect their parents and are bought up to understand their parents values then there is no reason why they would throw a fit. Maybe discussing all this when they are say in their teens is a good idea and not leaving it till they are in their 20's or 30's.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

BigDaddyNY said:


> First is risk. Once you are successfully in the swinging lifestyle I think the risk goes down considerably. However, that first step entails considerable risk. When the couple has children it adds even more gravity to that risk. You didn't seem to want to admit that the first step is risky. You can plan and plan and still not know how it will turn out until it can't be undone.
> 
> The second is about discussing your relationship, not the nitty gritty of sex. I assume a homosexual will share that fact with their children. They aren't and shouldn't be ashamed of their lifestyle choices. Certainly not with their own children. Being homosexual has nothing to do with anything except your sexual attraction. So by extension I'm wondering why you don't share your choice to swing/be non-monogamous? It too is just about your sexual attraction. Maybe I'm looking at this wrong, but that is where I'm coming from. I am not talking about the actual sex acts.
> 
> As @Diana7 said, we aren't talking about discussing this with toddlers. Every discussion like this has to be age appropriate.


I agree with you that the initial decision to try swinging can be risky. I've seen - and actually talked with - many couples making this choice. The main risk is that this is the wrong choice for them. If I got to talk with them and this was the case, I'd discourage them and tell them why (for them) it wasn't a good choice. However, for most, the risk is fleeting. They _together_ choose to try, and find it doesn't work well for them for whatever reason. I've talked to some of these people, too, who've tried it and stopped. Most shrug it off and move on with their relationship. A few - in particular those who weren't in full agreement to try - don't always shrug it off, but they often had other issues in their relationship to begin with. My sample is small, but I have no reason to think it doesn't generally apply. After people have had a few reasonable good experiences the risk becomes minimal, and normal functional couples then decide whether or not to continue and on what basis.

As for telling children about swinging, I still don't see why anyone thinks they need to be told. We haven't told our kids, and don't see how it would be helpful to them; besides, we started well after they'd left home, so it is of no concern to them. We DID tell them about our polyamorous relationships, because those are an actual alternative to monogamy and we had those relationships while they were still at home. We, our kids, and our partners would sometimes all do family things together. Swinging is not a long term alternative to monogamy - it's purely a recreational activity, but some people stigmatize it. If our kids want to engage in it, it's for them to discover and decide. We've mentioned it to them, but see no need to tell them more about us; and for all we know, maybe they are swingers and haven't bothered to tell us (not that we care). We've also told them facts about other controversial things, like drugs and STIs and religion - they can figure the rest out and decide for themselves what they want to think and do. If they ask us about anything, we'll talk about it. Mostly they just want to talk about their priorities: jobs, health issues and navigating the system, buying cars and insurance, and investing for retirement. Only one has asked about relationships, and that was about how to move on from a clingy and unsuitable girlfriend.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Diana7 said:


> If children love and respect their parents and are bought up to understand their parents values then there is no reason why they would throw a fit. Maybe discussing all this when they are say in their teens is a good idea and not leaving it till they are in their 20's or 30's.


You continue to post as if your standard for right and wrong and your motivations for how you parent are the only standards or have only one meaning...but that IS NOT SO.

Just because you want to insist that discussing the details of our sex lives with our children has some meaning that fits YOUR narrative, DOES NOT MAKE IT SO.

You are purposefully only seeing things through YOUR lens (as always)...but there are an infinite number of "lenses" that other people see things through, and they deserve respect and acceptance, because they are just as valid as your lens.


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## 346745 (Oct 7, 2020)

If my wife and l were swingers - and, yes, we do talk about it now and then - we would not tell our kids, both in their 20s now. That would be our private little secret. We would not ask them about their sexual preferences. If they asked specifically about us swinging, we’d be honest. … can we all move on to a new topic here?


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

For most, discussing particulars of a couples sex life with kids isn't a norm. Modeling a loving marriage is.

What positions and favorite acts aren't included in discussing with kids 🙄.

No reason to hide a loving sex life but the M is between spouses. And M comes first with loving couples. Kids are gifts of the M but if either spouse puts the kids first as automatic, routinely, that will harm the M.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Married but Happy said:


> I agree with you that the initial decision to try swinging can be risky. I've seen - and actually talked with - many couples making this choice. The main risk is that this is the wrong choice for them. If I got to talk with them and this was the case, I'd discourage them and tell them why (for them) it wasn't a good choice. However, for most, the risk is fleeting. They _together_ choose to try, and find it doesn't work well for them for whatever reason. I've talked to some of these people, too, who've tried it and stopped. Most shrug it off and move on with their relationship. A few - in particular those who weren't in full agreement to try - don't always shrug it off, but they often had other issues in their relationship to begin with. My sample is small, but I have no reason to think it doesn't generally apply. After people have had a few reasonable good experiences the risk becomes minimal, and normal functional couples then decide whether or not to continue and on what basis.
> 
> As for telling children about swinging, I still don't see why anyone thinks they need to be told. We haven't told our kids, and don't see how it would be helpful to them; besides, we started well after they'd left home, so it is of no concern to them. We DID tell them about our polyamorous relationships, because those are an actual alternative to monogamy and we had those relationships while they were still at home. We, our kids, and our partners would sometimes all do family things together. Swinging is not a long term alternative to monogamy - it's purely a recreational activity, but some people stigmatize it. If our kids want to engage in it, it's for them to discover and decide. We've mentioned it to them, but see no need to tell them more about us; and for all we know, maybe they are swingers and haven't bothered to tell us (not that we care). We've also told them facts about other controversial things, like drugs and STIs and religion - they can figure the rest out and decide for themselves what they want to think and do. If they ask us about anything, we'll talk about it. Mostly they just want to talk about their priorities: jobs, health issues and navigating the system, buying cars and insurance, and investing for retirement. Only one has asked about relationships, and that was about how to move on from a clingy and unsuitable girlfriend.


Thank you for understanding the point I was trying to make about risk.

I think I am comingling swinging with something like polyamory. Like you said, you don't hide your polyamorous relationships. You really couldn't because I assume you are living it 24/7. Similar to same sex couples. Kind of hard to hide that, especially from kids that have grown up with you. I can see that swinging could be more like a recreational activity. However, it does still cross into relationship territory since it means you are choosing to make your marriage non-monogamous vs monogamous. 

I think all good parents want their kids to become well equipped adults that can make their own life choices. At the same time the parents imprint their core values on them as a foundation for their future decisions. I don't know if it is universal, but there is definitely a part of me that wants to see my children follow in my footsteps to some degree. My daughter grew up seeing and hearing about what I did as an Electrical Engineer. It made me very proud when she chose that as her major in college, even though I knew it would be challenging for her. Along those lines, I know my wife and I have a very good and very happy marriage and I want my kids to follow in our footsteps in that regard as well. I realize ours isn't the only way to achieve a happy marriage, but I know it did work for us, so I impress that upon them. If we chose non-monogamy in an alternate universe and it resulted in a very good and very happy marriage I would want to impress that upon them too. 

I'll admit that I see now that swinging is a bit of a gray area, in my mind anyway, compared to something full time, like polyamory or homosexuality. So I can see why you don't just blurt it out there that you are swingers, but I would still think there would be some acknowledgment and discussion about the relationship aspect.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

BigDaddyNY said:


> ...but I would still think there would be some acknowledgment and discussion about the relationship aspect.


In what context? How would that ever come up?


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

Longtime Hubby said:


> can we all move on to a new topic here?


That would require a new thread. Got something else you want to talk about?


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

LisaDiane said:


> In what context? How would that ever come up?


That's a great question, and I'm not sure how it would play out if we were non-monogamous.

Monogamy on the other hand is a deeply held belief of mine and something I've lived for decades, so I can tell you how it has been discussed. During our first "sex talks" obviously we covered safe sex, STDs, pregnancy and consent. I shaped those conversations a little differently for my daughter vs my son, where appropriate. We also talked about how we felt sex was a gift for someone special, not to be freely given away. As they got older and were actually approaching the age of real dating and relationships, not just your middle school crush, we talked more about respecting your partner and the importance of being faithful and honest to them and what that meant to us. Those discussions would come up when they were going out on a date with someone new maybe, or during Prom season. We didn't do anything like schedule a talk. It came up more organically than that. A lot of these conversations took place in the car while I and one of the kids were driving somewhere. There were also a couple times we talked about it as very late teens when something came up about friends' parents getting divorced. I know my wife has shared her thoughts more directly about this with our daughter when she got engaged. She didn't get into the details and specifics of our sexual activities, but she made it clear to her that she felt marriage meant a dedication to your spouse in all aspects of life, including romance and intimacy. I can't say that in any of these discussions we threw out the word monogamy, but I think it was clear that we felt sex was only meant for one person at a time and ideally it would be someone you cared for deeply.

I genuinely have no idea how I would flip that around for non-monogamy. That is in large part because I would feel embarrassed about it. From my perspective it is wrong, feels wrong. Thinking about sharing myself or my wife with someone else makes me feel dirty. For that reason I can't see myself being comfortable discussing non-monogamy. I've been assuming that someone who feels equally strong about non-monogamy as I do about monogamy would also be comfortable discussing it at an age appropriate level with their children.


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## 346745 (Oct 7, 2020)

I love that Essex and his wife had an honest dicussion and have settled on what they want to do. Too often, even with spouses, we are too guarded. We've had many frank discussions about likes, dislikes, what turns us on, what we would do, what we have done. Very honest and open. I recall one talk last summer about a time - long ago - when an older man tried to pick me up at a party. I declined, the next morning imagined what would have taken place. Told my wife in great detail about my imagination 35 years ago. Led to a very fulfilling night for both of us.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

BigDaddyNY said:


> That's a great question, and I'm not sure how it would play out if we were non-monogamous.
> 
> Monogamy on the other hand is a deeply held belief of mine and something I've lived for decades, so I can tell you how it has been discussed. During our first "sex talks" obviously we covered safe sex, STDs, pregnancy and consent. I shaped those conversations a little differently for my daughter vs my son, where appropriate. We also talked about how we felt sex was a gift for someone special, not to be freely given away. As they got older and were actually approaching the age of real dating and relationships, not just your middle school crush, we talked more about respecting your partner and the importance of being faithful and honest to them and what that meant to us. Those discussions would come up when they were going out on a date with someone new maybe, or during Prom season. We didn't do anything like schedule a talk. It came up more organically than that. A lot of these conversations took place in the car while I and one of the kids were driving somewhere. There were also a couple times we talked about it as very late teens when something came up about friends' parents getting divorced. I know my wife has shared her thoughts more directly about this with our daughter when she got engaged. She didn't get into the details and specifics of our sexual activities, but she made it clear to her that she felt marriage meant a dedication to your spouse in all aspects of life, including romance and intimacy. I can't say that in any of these discussions we threw out the word monogamy, but I think it was clear that we felt sex was only meant for one person at a time and ideally it would be someone you cared for deeply.
> 
> I genuinely have no idea how I would flip that around for non-monogamy. That is in large part because I would feel embarrassed about it. From my perspective it is wrong, feels wrong. Thinking about sharing myself or my wife with someone else makes me feel dirty. For that reason I can't see myself being comfortable discussing non-monogamy. I've been assuming that someone who feels equally strong about non-monogamy as I do about monogamy would also be comfortable discussing it at an age appropriate level with their children.


Have you or your wife ever discussed your wife's sexual history with them, and how deeply it hurt you and how you overcame that? Did you wife ever sit and try to explain how it was possible for her to love and be attached to another man emotionally and sexually, and what led her to change her mind and choose you instead?

How much privacy is "proper" for parents when it comes to their sexual history? And who should set that standard?

Do you think I should be able to tell you and your wife that you haven't given your children enough information about your sexual feelings and history, and that it must be because of something dysfunctional in YOU that you want to have some privacy from them about your choices?

Do you think it's any of MY business what you share with them...and do you believe that you are beholden to MY morality and what I think about why you choose to share things with them or not? And that you should care about MY judgment about how you choose to share your very personal sexual choices with them?


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

BigDaddyNY said:


> I genuinely have no idea how I would flip that around for non-monogamy. *That is in large part because I would feel embarrassed about it. From my perspective it is wrong, feels wrong. Thinking about sharing myself or my wife with someone else makes me feel dirty. For that reason I can't see myself being comfortable discussing non-monogamy.* I've been assuming that someone who feels equally strong about non-monogamy as I do about monogamy would also be comfortable discussing it at an age appropriate level with their children.


You are projecting your feelings about non-monogamy onto other people who don't share your feelings about it.
This is why you cannot understand it. However, that DOES NOT mean that what you think is how it is for anyone else.
That's only how it is FOR YOU.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

LisaDiane said:


> Have you or your wife ever discussed your wife's sexual history with them, and how deeply it hurt you and how you overcame that? Did you wife ever sit and try to explain how it was possible for her to love and be attached to another man emotionally and sexually, and what led her to change her mind and choose you instead?
> 
> How much privacy is "proper" for parents when it comes to their sexual history? And who should set that standard?
> 
> ...


My wife has talked to my daughter about her ex and some of what went on there, what went wrong and how we made it work. She let her know that she only wanted to be with one person and he didn't/couldn't. She told her she made mistakes with him and hurt me very early in our dating life, but I don't actually know how much detail she got into it about that. She went on to tell her why she loves and appreciates me because of my dedication to her and our family. She told her, paraphrasing a bit, "see what your dad does? that is what you deserve too." I don't know if it is right or wrong to do that, but she was expressing her genuine feelings. 



LisaDiane said:


> You are projecting your feelings about non-monogamy onto other people who don't share your feelings about it.
> This is why you cannot understand it. However, that DOES NOT mean that what you think is how it is for anyone else.
> That's only how it is FOR YOU.


I can't argue with you about that. I guess it is a result of dealing with the emotions I feel about this topic. 

I recognize not everyone is going to be in agreement with my view. I'm sure I failed to not come off as judgmental, but at the same time I don't think I've ever said to anyone directly that you should not be a swinger or non-monogamous. I've been trying to understand the obvious risk that for the most part has been brushed off. I've also been trying to understand why you wouldn't be open about something so integral to your marriage. I don't have nor should have any control over what other people do and choose to tell their children, but is it wrong to ask about it here and try to understand the thought process behind it?


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

LisaDiane said:


> You are projecting your feelings about non-monogamy onto other people who don't share your feelings about it.
> This is why you cannot understand it. However, that DOES NOT mean that what you think is how it is for anyone else.
> That's only how it is FOR YOU.


He already acknowledged as much, my friend.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

maquiscat said:


> He already acknowledged as much, my friend.


I guess I missed that. What I thought I've seen is the same question and position over and over for several pages, but I will admit that I've skimmed alot of them as well.

I am never trying to be mean or smug or criticize, either...only pointing out what I see going on. If I am ever wrong, I would hope anyone reading my post would let me know or disregard what I said...with complete understanding from ME.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

LisaDiane said:


> You continue to post as if your standard for right and wrong and your motivations for how you parent are the only standards or have only one meaning...but that IS NOT SO.
> 
> Just because you want to insist that discussing the details of our sex lives with our children has some meaning that fits YOUR narrative, DOES NOT MAKE IT SO.
> 
> You are purposefully only seeing things through YOUR lens (as always)...but there are an infinite number of "lenses" that other people see things through, and they deserve respect and acceptance, because they are just as valid as your lens.


As you know of course and as I and others have said countless times NO one has said anyone should discuss the details of our sex lives. 
People usually bring their children up according to their values. They show by example and by communicating what they believe are the best ways to live. What is helpful and what isnt. What we have learnt by mistakes we have made. 
If we hide a lot of ourselves and our opinions and views from the children how will they learn? 
Part of that is about marriage and what we believe and understand about it. About whether we believe faithfulness is important or not. Whether we believe that it's fine to have many sexual partners. Its part of life and what we live out as our children grow up. 
I see no reason to hide these things. If they are hidden then there are reasons for that.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Diana7 said:


> As you know of course and as I and others have said countless times NO one has said anyone should discuss the details of our sex lives.
> People usually bring their children up according to their values. They show by example and by communicating what they believe are the best ways to live. What is helpful and what isnt. What we have learnt by mistakes we have made.
> If we hide a lot of ourselves and our opinions and views from the children how will they learn?
> Part of that is about marriage and what we believe and understand about it. About whether we believe faithfulness is important or not. Whether we believe that it's fine to have many sexual partners. Its part of life and what we live out as our children grow up.
> I see no reason to hide these things. If they are hidden then there are reasons for that.


I agree with most of what you say here. Where I disagree is when you try to apply your reasons for why someone chooses not to share their sexual preferences with their children. It doesn't have to be for "shame"...in fact, I can totally understand not wanting to share details like multiple partners with children at all, because the parent wants to do what's best for their child.

You are applying what is in YOUR heart and mind to what is in someone else's heart and mind, you are projecting YOUR feelings onto them, and I believe that you are mistaken. 

You would feel guilt and shame because you believe strongly in monogamy...but people who do not adhere to that principle wouldn't feel the same sense of guilt and shame. They could, however, be VERY conscious of how society would perceive their non-traditional sexual choices, and not want to burden their children with that knowledge.

You aren't acknowledging that there is another way to think and feel about non-monogamy for people who don't share your strict principles about it. That was all I wanted to point out.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

maquiscat said:


> Because you, nor any other religion or whatever, is the end all be all judge on what a marriage is to other people. Other religions have other standards, and getting a legal marriage has its own set of reasons. You also presume both offspring, and that it is detrimental to such. Given the number of Christian couples who are forgoing children altogether, yet alone the non-Christian ones, trashes that logic, and there is nothing showing that open/poly, in and of themselves is detrimental, when you take out preconceived premises. And if you want to talk detrimental to children, we can always look at Catholic priests and FLDS.


99.9% of priests are good men. You’ve probably never set foot in a Catholic Church and just buy the media hype that all priests are pedos… you’re so wrong. I’ve been so inspired by some priests I’ve known… I’m a better man because of many good priests I’ve known.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

CatholicDad said:


> 99.9% of priests are good men. You’ve probably never set foot in a Catholic Church and just buy the media hype that all priests are pedos… you’re so wrong. I’ve been so inspired by some priests I’ve known… I’m a better man because of many good priests I’ve known.


That is rather my point. And I have set foot in Catholic churches. There are ones I would not mind going to again (assuming the same priest was still there) and others I would not set foot in again. Pretty much the same for many denominations, as I had a wide exposure during my Navy days. That said, it cannot be denied that the Catholic organization has failed to properly deal with what priests are child molesters, and it no more implies that all or most priests are detrimental to children than any parents/adults within open/poly are detrimental to children. The only difference is that the church is an organization that can police its members, whereas open and poly are simply a demographic and can no more police its "members" any more than people of a given race police those of their own race who are detrimental.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Married but Happy said:


> I can say that 99.99% of religious people like you are creeps with accuracy equal to your statement.


And here come the sparks a flyin'! No telling where this goes now 🤣🤣


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> And here come the sparks a flyin'! No telling where this goes now 🤣🤣


*Moderator Warning:- *They stop now, or the ban hammer starts to rain down.


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## Korolover (10 mo ago)

You two are already at that level of closeness that you don’t even need to post it here . After all that you two have been through I don’t think it should even be a slightest problem telling her what you like . Go for it. Tell her straight up. She might resist a little just so you don’t feel left out but she’ll agree


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Good point. There are more risks than just sex related issues that can break a marriage. Engaging in an activity that kills you will break the marriage too, lol.
> 
> Maybe it really does boils down to someone's risk tolerance vs how badly they want to *TRY AN* activity.


FIFY

i wonder how much of this is simply a person gets tediously bored, and wants to TRY something thrilling and new. 
a lot of times, they try it once or twice, go eeeeewww, and never try that particular thing again.

there is not a lot of intellectual activity involved in such things, you get horny, start fantasizing about a certain sex act, and eventually convince yourself to try it. 

the "risk" of doing that act (cheating for instance) only pops into their minds after they have tried it, found it is not all it was cracked up to be, and the reality of the consequences (or maybe the person's conscience) shows up


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

maquiscat said:


> For most swingers, sex doesn't automatically equal relationship, or at least not intimate want to spend the rest of my life with you relationship. After all relationships come in all shapes including friends as varying closeness.....


i would actually expect the opposite....you would PREFER to swing with new people, just to lessen the chance of one of you "falling in love" with the person they are swinging with. 

Not sure how you prevent deep feelings to form if you keep swinging with the same couple over a period of time, how you do not suddenly find your spouse sneaking off to secretly have more sex with her swinging partner without your knowledge.


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

CatholicDad said:


> 99.9% of priests are good men. You’ve probably never set foot in a Catholic Church and just buy the media hype that all priests are pedos… you’re so wrong. I’ve been so inspired by some priests I’ve known… I’m a better man because of many good priests I’ve known.


i would say 90% of the priests are pious and righteous men.
the other 10% are fairly manipulative types (as i have observed over the years), and not necessarily to be trusted. I agree that only a few out of that 10% are actual pedophiles, but the rest of them are not necessarily snow white in other matters.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

Talker67 said:


> i would actually expect the opposite....you would PREFER to swing with new people, just to lessen the chance of one of you "falling in love" with the person they are swinging with.
> 
> Not sure how you prevent deep feelings to form if you keep swinging with the same couple over a period of time, how you do not suddenly find your spouse sneaking off to secretly have more sex with her swinging partner without your knowledge.


Trust, faith, good communication. Also, swinging isn't only both of the couple at the same time. That _can_ be a rule for a swinging couple. But for others, you might have where one spouse goes off with another couple for a threesome. Or even that threesome being spouses from three different marriages. There is no one true way.

As for feelings, how do you keep from developing feelings for friends to begin with? Granted a lot of people here has that silly idea of never be with someone of the sex you are attracted to. That would be extremely limiting for a bisexual person, bordering on abusive. Further you could have deep feelings for a person and still recognize that you two could not make it as a live together couple. I had a few gf's like that.


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## Lynnsnake (Dec 4, 2021)

EssexUKMale said:


> So we started practicing BDSM taking turns who doms and who subs and we got very far quite extreme. We then tried swinging. I found I really do not get off much with the other woman. But it drives me crazy with lust and a arousing type of jealousy her being with other men. Like we would swing I would be having a great time. The poor other woman thinking she’s getting me off. But really it was watching my wife doing it for me. My wife and I have amazing trust. And even tho I get jealous I love it. Because of trust we have.
> 
> Update. So had the talk. I even used 1 or 2 lines that was suggested to me. Was very positive. But also shocked me in a what that really boosted my confidence and ego.
> 
> ...


So where’s the problem? Have fun.


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