# Ok men, why does he not take advantage of this?



## neglected42

I need the opinion of men here. I have another thread, so will make a long story short. I have been with my husband for 25 years, married 20. I have been with him since high school, he is the only man I have been with. We have four kids. My husband is an alcoholic. To everyone else, he is a great guy....just a fun loving partyer. To me he has been horribly neglectful, bad tempered, and emotionally abusive. He has not treated me well.

I am done. I do not love him. I have absolutely no affection towards him. I cannot be intimate with him.

I told him to go find himself someone new. I told him I would stay and keep doing all the things I do while he explores other options. I told him I do not love him anymore. That we could function as roommates until he finds himself someone else.

What does this mean for him? It means I continue to pay half he household bills (I have a good job. He earns more than me which just means he has more spending money. If he continued cutting down on the booze he would have lots of money to date). It means I take care of all the finances (which I do very well, and he has never touched), I take care of all the housework, all the cooking (both of which he has no clue how to do.....and I am a good cook), I take care of all the responsibilities of the children (and I mean ALL, except a few hockey games a week, as I can't be in four places at once), all the groceries, Christmas shopping, planning everything from when our kids have sports to all family events, including his family. Basically, he takes care of a lot of the yard work, and takes out the garbage. 

I am a good roommate. I NEVER complain. (I learned years ago that won't go well). 

I have removed myself from any kind of intimate relationship with him since Feb. of 2014. He has tried many forms of intimidation and bullying to get me to comply. He has finally given up on that and has cut back his drinking considerably. He is even nicer to be around. I still don't love him. 

We are in counselling for the fourth time. It is like beating a dead horse. He accepts very little responsibility. It is frustrating for me and the counselor. 

Why is he not jumping at this offer?? He was worried what people would think of him. I told him to tell people we had an arrangement.....and I would do the same. 

Why is he so angry at me. I cannot help the way I feel. He got me here. I feel like I am offering him the best thing I can. It certainly seems better than me leaving and him trying to figure out everything on his own. 

The men out there who were left by their wives, would you have taken offence to this? I told him I would not be looking for another relationship. I have NO desire for another relationship. I am just trying to do what is best for the kids, and I think this would also be in his best interest as well. Am I wrong?


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## Wolfman1968

Maybe he can't reconcile himself to the fact that the marriage is essentially dead.


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## *LittleDeer*

Just leave, stop wasting your life.


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## EleGirl

He is an alcoholic, cannot deal with life, has someone to pay half his bills and handle everything else.

All he has to do is go to work at the family business, drink and take the kids to a couple of sport things a week.

He's probably very comfortable with you taking care of most things for him. Why would he give that up.

Your plan to get some other woman to take him off your hands is not going to work. He has no reason to. You have made his life too easy.


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## Broken at 20

My already broken heart doesn't understand this.

If a girl loved me, even with my alcoholic nature, and my alcoholism, I would make sure she felt loved every way I could. I would never abadandon her. 

If your husbvand can;t seem to understand that your the winner in fhe thefa family, thne fvck him. 

Tell him top go fvck himself. 

Tjhen go date a young guy. \
Amd annoy the shyt out of him. 

Stupiod alcoghlics.


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## Broken at 20

Personally, I am tired of seeing excellent, caring, and good women marry guys that aren't werent anything. 
KJist like I am tired of seeeing waste of flesh guyhs marry women atha would make excellent mother.s 


Now. 
IDK how the dating arena is for the...22+ crowd. 
Or the 20+ corwd sinc eI am not dating. 


But I would totally date a woman like yo9u. 

why don;t people appreciate what they have? 
I hate people. 

I'd marry dat. 
If I was 15 years older. You know. at 22. 
Bit wjatever./


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## FormerSelf

I agree that it seems like he is still in denial about the marriage being over as it seemed like he had everything good going from him...and he hadn't considered that you were wearing thin from all of this. 

So while you are at the stage of DONE, he had just awoken to the reality, not quite figuring out that it is too late. Right now, he is scrambling and trying to bargain and nice his way into your good graces, not yet letting it sink in that you couldn't give an eff.

If you think about it, this is probably the healthiest step for both of you...where you can get out of the alcohol dysfunctional scenario and where he finally realizes that boozing it up actually has real consequences...and hopefully will be the thing that causes him to get help. 'Cos right now, you both have been sinking...and the kids don't need to be in the middle of that.


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## MachoMcCoy

neglected42 said:


> I am done. I do not love him. I have absolutely no affection towards him. I cannot be intimate with him.


That is odd. After you offer him this devastating news, which crushed his soul, the statement "and go find someone else to screw, I'm done" didn't make him feel better?

Communication problems between the genders boggles the mind.


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## Jellybeans

neglected42 said:


> It certainly seems better than me leaving and him trying to figure out everything on his own.


I disagree. Seems counter-productive. If you don't want to be with him, just divorce him instead of playing house.


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## Jellybeans

MachoMcCoy said:


> That is odd. After you offer him this devastating news, which crushed his soul, the statement "and go find someone else to screw, I'm done" didn't make him feel better?


Exactly.

Perhaps OP thought he was supposed to be so happy at this news and start celebrating.


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## Mr. Nail

Two things.
Absoloutly the only important thing to an addict is the next fix.
He still thinks he can fix this, like many men he seems to be an incurable fixer.

What worries me more is your declaration that you have no interest in a replacement relationship. You are so worn down that you have lost hope.
MN


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## Married but Happy

What about the children? They are getting two terrible examples of how to be in a relationship - his and yours.


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## Wolf1974

Ok problem number one is that you are trying to have a rational logical conversation with a drunk. That's just never going to work out in your favor....he isn't capabale of this.

This is going to fall on you to get out of this. He really has no reason to leave you. Even sexless most drug addicts prefer thier drug to sex anyway. Make a plan and get out. Time to find a life free of addiction.


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## neglected42

I understand that this would have been a crushing blow to him. But it did not come out of nowhere! I have been telling him for years. We went to marriage counselling 3 times. I did not expect him to celebrate! I did expect him to see that I am offering all I have left. It is sad that I am so worn down that I cannot fathom a relationship of any kind. But that is the reality. Right now the kids are getting the best dad they have ever had. He has really calmed down, far less tempermental. Sure, my husband and I have not had a good, loving relationship, but we do not argue. Yes, his alcoholism caused him to have a bad temper, but he wasn't home much. Always "working".....or so they thought. Now, he is home more and calm. He is trying in many ways. 
It is just too late. My feelings towards him, and relationships in general, are broken. His anger seems to come from some sort of entitlement. That I owe him forgiveness and love. After all, it is not like he beat me up. (Those are his words). 
I need him to understand that I am done, and it is not all my fault. I am not looking for another women to take him off my hands. My husband feels he can take care of his kids. I can see how this is going to turn out. He is going to have to cook, clean, and take care of a house and four kids on his own. He has never done ANY of this before. His temper will be OUT OF CONTROL with the stress of trying to do this. The kids will suffer. Right now, they may not see a loving, passionate relationship, but the are most certainly not suffering! A girlfriend would make him happy and hence he would be less tempermental. That would be good for everyone. 

Bad Santa - ?????????


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## neglected42

Wolf1974 he has cut down significantly and is now home most nights. He does seem to have it in control right now. He seems to think that this should fix everything. This is the best he has been in our whole marriage. It is just too late!


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## Deejo

If your husband was a dyed in the wool sonuvab!tch, he just might have a keener sense for your offer ... or still just not care.

He was comfortable and complacent. Doesn't seem that he ever wanted to not be married ... just wasn't much of a husband.

I don't think you need to push him towards another relationship. You need to focus on either making the best of the arrangement you are in, or extricating yourself from it.

I can accept you don't love him. 

Do you care about him? 

What 'good' does he contribute to the roommate situation?


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## Observer

So he is making attempts to be a better man and husband and you want to now destroy him? It's to late? O.K. then divorce him. What you are doing is cruel. He is trying for you and the kids! Yes, it's late. Yes, he cause a lot of pain. Once again..divorce him then. Don't leave him in limbo. Actins speak louder than words. You tell him you don't love him...he does not believe that. Why would you not divorce him if you did not love him...that's what he thinks. You are very bitter and want revenge. It sounds like you could save your marriage but instead you give up just when there is hope.


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## Jellybeans

neglected42 said:


> A girlfriend would make him happy and hence he would be less tempermental. That would be good for everyone.


You can't force him into a relationship with someone. 

Why don't you divorce?


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## Wolf1974

neglected42 said:


> Wolf1974 he has cut down significantly and is now home most nights. He does seem to have it in control right now. He seems to think that this should fix everything. This is the best he has been in our whole marriage. *It is just too late!*


*
*


Then leave, why are you waiting for his decision? This is yours. You're the one done not him. It's not uncommon for one spouse to be a drunk and then get sober and it destroys the marriage. Lots of reasons go into it but it happens. You are done then you need to pull the cord


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## Jellybeans

Stop talking all that logic and sense, Wolf.


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## SurpriseMyself

Wolfman1968 said:


> Maybe he can't reconcile himself to the fact that the marriage is essentially dead.


And that he killed it!


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## SurpriseMyself

MachoMcCoy said:


> That is odd. After you offer him this devastating news, which crushed his soul, the statement "and go find someone else to screw, I'm done" didn't make him feel better?
> 
> Communication problems between the genders boggles the mind.


Don't bash the OP. If her offer of an open marriage "crushed his soul", what he been doing to her for the past 20 years! I see plenty he's done wrong and you find fault with her suggestion. Whatever!


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## MachoMcCoy

Look. We now all agree that offering him the freedom to find a new girlfriend was stupid. Let this thread die and start a new one about how you fell out of love with your husband, how he is changing, but it is too late for you, you're gone, but you refuse to divorce/leave him, "what do I do" You just wasted a day with what you now understand was a distraction. Regroup and start over.


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## Jellybeans

SurpriseMyself said:


> Don't bash the OP. If her offer of an open marriage "crushed his soul", what he been doing to her for the past 20 years! I see plenty he's done wrong and you find fault with her suggestion. Whatever!


I don't see that as him bashing the OP. He's making a statement based on a different viewpoint. It's totally understandable that someone may feel crushed after their spouse says they want nothing to do with them anymore/isn't in love with them/and wants to live as roommates.


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## karole

SurpriseMyself said:


> Don't bash the OP. If her offer of an open marriage "crushed his soul", what he been doing to her for the past 20 years! I see plenty he's done wrong and you find fault with her suggestion. Whatever!


I wouldn't blame the OP for being sick and tired and divorcing her husband; however, why in the world did she stay with him for 20 years and have 4 kids with him before she decided she'd had enough? Apparently, he's been an alcoholic their entire marriage.


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## Mr.Fisty

karole said:


> I wouldn't blame the OP for being sick and tired and divorcing her husband; however, why in the world did she stay with him for 20 years and have 4 kids with him before she decided she'd had enough? Apparently, he's been an alcoholic their entire marriage.



Sad to say, but I am guessing the same reason why people stay with their abuser. Sometimes they see hope, or are just beaten down. Even to this day, I am sure lots of people are staying with their spouse, even though they have a drug issue. My aunt stayed for ten years, and she left after he went to jail for possession. Everyone has a breaking point. Some people stay in a miserable marriage for a lifetime.


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## Mr. Nail

neglected42 said:


> A girlfriend would make him happy and hence he would be less tempermental. That would be good for everyone.


Except the girlfriend.

You think this is a good solution, but that is just the desperation speaking. 
MN


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## Lon

He's not jumping for joy at the thought of having to find a new woman with whom he has to have a terrible relationship? He knows that (despite him neglecting your needs for intimacy - I don't mean just sex) that his own intimacy needs are badly neglected. It's all so confusing for him and the easiest solution he's found to avoid having to deal with it is drink, or work, or do whatever else he does to escape from reality.

Also have you considered that he's meeting his sexual needs somewhere else (since, regardless of how neglectful of you he's been, you are not stepping up to meet his sexual needs)? His late nights working were an easy opportunity for him to get sex, especially for someone like him that is addicted to escapism at the detriment to his family.

Your "offer" of a free pass isn't really free at all to him, or you. If he takes it is the same as him assuming all responsibility for the state of the marriage - which he is not likely to do based on what you've said about him, and also it absolves you of your contributions to the state of the marriage, which is isn't likely ready to let you off of so easily.


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## Westwind

neglected42 said:


> ...It is just too late. My feelings towards him, and relationships in general, are broken. His anger seems to come from some sort of entitlement. That I owe him forgiveness and love. After all, it is not like he beat me up. (Those are his words).
> I need him to understand that I am done, and it is not all my fault. I am not looking for another women to take him off my hands. My husband feels he can take care of his kids. I can see how this is going to turn out. He is going to have to cook, clean, and take care of a house and four kids on his own. He has never done ANY of this before. His temper will be OUT OF CONTROL with the stress of trying to do this...


He has lost control of you, I mean really lost control and he has to realize that. I can easily understand how 20 years of abuse can work its way into your unconscious mind and there is just no way to get the relationship back, or any other relationship in the future with another guy. That the relationship is hopeless emotionally for you, that he feels entitled, he just does not get it! If he takes the kids and stays sober, then maybe it would work out OK for the kids, but get a settlement where the kids come back to you if he starts drinking again. He may want to try AA. You could try Al Anon, or maybe not. He might say he can take care of the kids just to show you that he is changed. I would think your saying you want him to find a girlfriend would make it plain that your relationship is dead!!! Maybe he should try match.com, but if he was staying out late and getting some sex as Lon suggests; perhaps, another woman is already available to take your place which might be another explanation on why he would want to take on the responsibility of the kids. Anyway, get a good lawyer.


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## chaos

neglected42 said:


> Wolf1974 he has cut down significantly and is now home most nights. He does seem to have it in control right now. He seems to think that this should fix everything. This is the best he has been in our whole marriage. It is just too late!


Why don't you take advantage and pull the plug on the life support machine and give the marriage a proper burial, divorce.


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## MaritimeGuy

As much as people think the kids aren't impacted by a passionless but cordial marriage I have to disagree. I believe many of us (myself included) struggle with how to behave in a truly loving relationship because we missed out on having a decent role model.

My parents are still together yet have disliked each other for pretty much as long as I can remember. I swear they both work at pushing each others buttons. When you visit you can cut the tension with a knife. When I do visit I make sure it's short because it's so uncomfortable there. I do not have a single memory of my parents hugging or kissing one another. To this day I have a very hard time showing affection to my partner. 

If you're intention is to remain cordial anyhow I recommend moving into separate households and sharing custody of the kids. At least that way you can move on with your life and provide at least one example of how an adult takes responsibility for their own happiness. It may even free your husband to move on and find happiness too.


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## Methuselah

Just leave.

'nuff said.


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## MachoMcCoy

SurpriseMyself said:


> Don't bash the OP. If her offer of an open marriage "crushed his soul", what he been doing to her for the past 20 years! I see plenty he's done wrong and you find fault with her suggestion. Whatever!


What's your deal? She asked men why he wasn't thrilled at her suggestion. I gave her a reason. Scratch that...I gave her THE reason. Sorry for being helpful.

You have issues. Deal with them in your own thread.


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## 3Xnocharm

Neglected, the way you are currently living is acceptable if you are working toward getting a divorce filed and done. This is NOT the way to live out your lives. Expecting another woman to "take him off your hands"...REALLY?? That is cowardly. You think you are doing him some big favor because you believe that he cannot take care of himself, but he is a grown man and CAN take care of himself! Thats what you do when that is the only choice. You just keep enabling him further, he has no incentive to turn his life around as long as you are there holding him up still. Just divorce and move on.


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## EleGirl

neglected42 said:


> It is sad that I am so worn down that I cannot fathom a relationship of any kind.


It is very normal that at this point you cannot fathom another relationship. You need to heal first from this one.

Most people who divorce say that they will never get into another relationship again. Yet more are remarried or in a committed relationship with 3-4 years after the divorce.


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## chaos

I know all about exit affairs but this is the first time I've seen an *exit affair by proxy*.


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## Mr.Fisty

The reason why he does not take advantage is probably he is in denial. He has been avoiding the issues for so many years, and it would be unrealistic to believe that he will do so otherwise. Even now, I don't think his change is permanant. He may be doing this long enough that you would fall for him again. Years of behavior does not change over night. I think he may have some underlying issues, and the drinking only masked it.

It is not your job to decide what is best for his life, only yours. He is not a child, and if he falls, that is on him. I have no issue if you ended the marriage. For me, a divorce is only confirmation that it is over. The marriage is over though, as there is only one participant.

I don't even care if he is trying now and others on here want you to give him another chance. Life doesn't always work that way, and he probably has done so much damage that he probably burned down all the bridges for you. For you, he cross that line of no return, and I can't fault you for not giving him another chance. Just like cheating is someone's line, once crossed, it is over. They only had that one chance.

You may have to be the strong one here and end it all. You can't pick that lifestyle for him, and it is not what he desires. You can't protect him from himself, and another relationship will not solve his issues. Only he can seek the help for that. You have to leave and start healing. You need to seek help with your own issues. Being in that type of relationship for so long, I am sure you probably have some anger, and resentment. Seek help and heal, so you can be mentally healthy to be a parent, and lead by example. Fix your own life, and that is a lesson that you can pass onto your children.


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## neglected42

Well, I see why he was angry, so many of you seem to agree with his anger. I honestly thought I was providing him with the best option. Cowardly??? Perhaps I am a coward. I certainly am petrified to leave the kids in his care. That is definitely what is keeping me here. If that makes me a coward, then I am one for sure. 
Cruel? Sorry, don't agree with that. He has been the one who has been cruel. Over and over. Leaving him to fend for himself and his kids seems more cruel. 
Why have I stayed so long. I have been with him since I was 17. This is the only relationship I have known. He was very good at convincing me everything was in my head. My expectations were unrealistic (not drinking during work hours), I was always focussing on the negative, looking for things to get angry at. Yes, I was certainly naïve and foolish. I was an enabler. I hate conflict and he was great at it.
I still have trouble with the people feeling I should be giving him another chance because he is now trying. He did not bother trying (for long anyway) for over twenty years. Now that I am almost out the door, he decides to actually try. How awful of me now to be done. I can't seem to give him another chance because the "feelings" associated with love and closeness are GONE! I cannot make them now appear because it is convenient for him, and our life in general. Wouldn't it be lovely if we could love and feel close to any person we deem will be convenient. If I could take a pill that would make it so I don't jump every time he touches me, or cringe when he puts his hand on my leg, then I would take it. I do see that this idea is not one that is just shared by my husband. That many people see it as cruel that I am not "trying", like I have a choice in the way my body responds to my husband. Like our history is just erased because he is trying. If that is supposed to be the way it works, I wish someone would let my body know, because I am not physiologically responding appropriately.


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## 3Xnocharm

Neglected, I back you up not trying any more. I totally get that, and understand how done you are.


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## Trickster

Neglected

My wife essentially told me the same thing... It was soul crushing
About 4 years ago or so, I realized she didn't love me. Call it an awakening or just a realization. 

Although I am an alcoholic, for 17 or so years, I didn't drink. I was the provider, I usually had two jobs, I was responsible, I cooked, I cleaned. My wife was always the job hopper. Then our daughter was born and she became a SAHM for way longer that what we agreed on.

When I realized she didn't love me, I set out on a mission to earn her love. I started doing even more. I got in amazing shape, even though she was and still is 50 pounds overweight. That didn't change her feelings. I read dozens of books On marriage and nothing helped. 

My libido shot way up and I wanted more sex and she complied. Her heart wasn't there and I knew it. I kept trying.

So my drinking returned. I needed to numb my feelings. I was never an angry drunk. I didn't drink enough to that point. My wife said I was in a better mood when I had a couple drinks. I don't remember how the conversations lead for me having a lover, then the "open marriage". Its foggy right now..

I wasn't after sex, I was after better intimacy and I wanted a wife who loved me, could show it, and say it. In 22 years, she was never the first to say I Love You, never the first io initiate any affection.

This open marriage bs? I attract some amazing women. The first time I mention that I am married, they bolt. If I mention we have an open marriage, they run, if I mention my wife and I live separate lives, sleep in different rooms, and stay married to keep an intact family, they run the other direction. One woman I like, who is divorced told me to " man up" and just divorce. I am not after a FWB I am after a mutually loving affectionate relationship. 

My wife refuses to divorce. She tells me I can do what I want, go where I want, have sex with who I want, she won't ask any questions...What will my 11 year old daughter think of me when she finds out dad has a gf?

If I repulse my wife, she should jump for joy to get divorced. 

My wife spent the past 22 years seeing me as a friend and never told me otherwise

You spent all these years in silence. 

Why?

I know our stories are different, however I can relate, I understand the feeling of un love and a wife who doesn't want me to find real love. That won't happen until we divorce.

By the way... We are sexless now


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## Lon

neglected42 said:


> Well, I see why he was angry, so many of you seem to agree with his anger. I honestly thought I was providing him with the best option. Cowardly??? Perhaps I am a coward. I certainly am petrified to leave the kids in his care. That is definitely what is keeping me here. If that makes me a coward, then I am one for sure.
> Cruel? Sorry, don't agree with that. He has been the one who has been cruel. Over and over. Leaving him to fend for himself and his kids seems more cruel.
> Why have I stayed so long. I have been with him since I was 17. This is the only relationship I have known. He was very good at convincing me everything was in my head. My expectations were unrealistic (not drinking during work hours), I was always focussing on the negative, looking for things to get angry at. Yes, I was certainly naïve and foolish. I was an enabler. I hate conflict and he was great at it.
> *I still have trouble with the people feeling I should be giving him another chance because he is now trying*. He did not bother trying (for long anyway) for over twenty years. Now that I am almost out the door, he decides to actually try. How awful of me now to be done. I can't seem to give him another chance because the "feelings" associated with love and closeness are GONE! I cannot make them now appear because it is convenient for him, and our life in general. Wouldn't it be lovely if we could love and feel close to any person we deem will be convenient. If I could take a pill that would make it so I don't jump every time he touches me, or cringe when he puts his hand on my leg, then I would take it. I do see that this idea is not one that is just shared by my husband. That many people see it as cruel that I am not "trying", like I have a choice in the way my body responds to my husband. Like our history is just erased because he is trying. If that is supposed to be the way it works, I wish someone would let my body know, because I am not physiologically responding appropriately.


I don't recall anyone on here saying that you need/must/should continue trying. If divorce is what you need to do in order to make your life fulfilling then you have the full support of those of us on here, and if you say it is impossible to have your needs met while remaining married to him, then don't play victim or make excuses why you can't or don't want to leave. And conversely if YOU decide you want to work at it, you also have full support from people on here.

Another commenter already said it, but you are not responsible for his behaviors, you can't make him feel one way or some other - all you can do is control your own actions and make your own choices.


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## michzz

Even if your H is a terrible example of a man, addicted to booze and has angry outbursts, he likely will be offended at the suggestion to go get a girlfriend for two reasons:

1. He probably still cares for you and only you in his imperfect way.

2. He may see it as your way of having other men in your life no matter how much you protest that it isn't so.

Most women do not try to get their man to get a girlfriend.

I think you ought to consider just moving on to divorce.


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## BrockLanders

How old are the kids?


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## Trickster

Neglected-

You said that you don't want to leave "his" kids with him. Are they your children too or just his?


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## staarz21

Why would the kids have to stay with him?


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## WorkingOnMe

Trickster said:


> That won't happen until we divorce.
> 
> By the way... We are sexless now


And she's the only one who can make that happen? She won't let you? Man, Trickster, you're so full of it your eyes are brown. Whether you stay or go is 100% in your hands. Don't try to make it sound like you're some kind of prisoner or victim here. You stay of your own free will.


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## Trickster

MaritimeGuy said:


> As much as people think the kids aren't impacted by a passionless but cordial marriage I have to disagree. I believe many of us (myself included) struggle with how to behave in a truly loving relationship because we missed out on having a decent role model.
> 
> My parents are still together yet have disliked each other for pretty much as long as I can remember. I swear they both work at pushing each others buttons. When you visit you can cut the tension with a knife. When I do visit I make sure it's short because it's so uncomfortable there. I do not have a single memory of my parents hugging or kissing one another. To this day I have a very hard time showing affection to my partner. oo.


If we know we had bad role models as kids, once we become adults, at what point do we have to work harder for our own happiness? When do we stop blaming our parents? When do we empower yourself and our early life setbacks can encourage us to create a better life than what we experience as kids.

My parents were rotton role models. However, in their world and in their own life experiences, I want to believe they did their best. Then again, maybe they were selfish.

The divorced mom I talked about. She has a 16 year old. She blames her mom for not trying harder on their marriage. She is unhappy that her dad isn't in her life, except for some holidays and half the Summer.

I think we can blame parents either way. 

Basically, we our children are screwed up no matter what we do.


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## Trickster

WorkingOnMe said:


> And she's the only one who can make that happen? She won't let you? Man, Trickster, you're so full of it your eyes are brown. Whether you stay or go is 100% in your hands. Don't try to make it sound like you're some kind of prisoner or victim here. You stay of your own free will.


Neglected

Many people here on TAM stay in an unhaapy, sexless, unloving marriage for the kids. 

As of now, I see her every day. She is my world. I am sure your kids are your world as well. 

At some point, we all have to decide if an unhappy loveless sexless marriage is worse than divorce for the children. Not so easy to decide if there is no arguments and both parents want to see the kids every day.


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## neglected42

The kids range in age from 5 - 12. They are most definitely mine. I say the kids will have to be with him because he is their dad and could get 50% custody. (Just because he has not put much into raising them does not change that in the courts. They do not care that he has never got up with them, cooked, bothered with homework, doctors, etc, etc)

Trickster, I have not been silent for 20 years. I tried to tell him over and over. We are on our fourth counselor. The thing is my husband is the type of man who wants to "shut me up", (as the counselor so delicately put it) any time I had a feeling that he did not like. He would shout, sometimes name call. It did not matter how valid my complaint was, he would shout at me until I shut up. I just started shoving everything down, rather than endure his wrath. I am a wimp. I am soft. I grew up in a house with kind, quiet people. My husband is an intimidating bully, and he bullied me over and over again. I just hit a wall, and cannot go back. Wimps and bullies do not belong together. He needs a fire cracker. Someone who will give it right back to him and then some. 

Are my children my world? God, yes. I love those four little boys with my whole heart and soul. It is like a gong show around here, and I love every minute of it. There isn't a day that goes by that I don't thank the powers that be for every single one of them. (Even if they are farting at the dinner table)


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## neglected42

Sorry there, computer froze. Trickster, you bring up a very important point I did not think about. I thought my husband could go out, find himself a new girlfriend. We could get divorced and he could live happily ever after. I did not think about how difficult it would be to find a good women who would consider him while he lived at home with me and the four kids. 

I agree that many people live unhappily married for the sake of their children. I have read up on the effect of divorce on children. It seems that if you are not in a lot of conflict, that staying together for the children even if you yourself are unhappy, is the best thing for the kids.  (These are studies that are looking only on the effect on the kids, not how the parents fare). Of course, there are not too many studies in this area yet. So must be taken with a grain of salt.


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## Westwind

Even if he did change into a dependable and caring husband, the twenty years of abuse means the relationship is going to remain sexless and not emotionally connected. You have been damaged at a deep emotional level, after all you do cringe when he touches your leg, or I suppose any other part of your body. But, he does seem to think that he has done all he can to get the relationship back? He needs to know how badly the relationship is damaged, maybe with the marriage counselor involved. He does not have any empathy so you are going to have to tell him upfront where you are at. What does he think of a sexless relationship from here on out? You need to ask him what he wants and hopefully he can accept the demise of the relationship. You have given him the option of an open relationship, but probably not many women would take him up on that as he would appear to be unreliable to the other woman and she could never really have him if he stays married, so I think Trickster has a good point.

The stress causes by the marriage could have health problems for you because stress, where you have no control, takes a hit on your immune system. However, when you take sex out of the relationship it does give some instant relief. It’s not just no sex; however, it is also no intimacy at all. 

When women have an active social life usually with other women, they do well after a divorce. From what I have read, men who are divorced tend to fall apart physically at about age fifty. They did not take good care of their family, but also they do not take good care of themselves. Hopefully if he finds another woman, he will learn how to take care of her and himself. I do not think the relationship he is in right now has the potential to cause him to improve his care taking ability, although he does seem to be trying some by not drinking like he did. He is going to have to do a lot more than that for a woman in his life. 

About children and divorce, I like John Gottman’s book on Raising An Emotionally Intelligent Child The Heart of Parenting. This book tells how to take care of kids when there is a divorce. His book on What Makes Love Last?: How to Build Trust and Avoid Betrayal is a good one on relationships, but ultimately, a person has to make the choice of trying. Maybe this would be a good book if you ever change your mind about getting into a new relationship.


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## MachoMcCoy

neglected42 said:


> He did not bother trying (for long anyway) for over twenty years. Now that I am almost out the door, he decides to actually try... I can't seem to give him another chance because the "feelings" associated with love and closeness are GONE! ... If I could take a pill that would make it so I don't jump every time he touches me, or cringe when he puts his hand on my leg, then I would take it.


The catholic church (used to anyhow) require a pre-marriage weekend seminar type thing. There were about 30 couples in mine. It was all group hugs and "things will get tough but you need to stick it out". We should have analyzed that paragraph all weekend instead. With me and the OP's husband leading the discussion.



neglected42 said:


> I have not been silent for 20 years. I tried to tell him over and over.


And he didn't hear you. And we are still shocked about that. In this day and age. Amazing.


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## Trickster

Neglected- my wife and I stopped having sex about 2 1/2 months ago (my choice) and I have been sleeping in the spare bedroom. Last night, I asked her how she felt about our new sleeping arrangement. My wife is the passive silent type as well.

She told me she is relieved because sex was physically painful. She always had vaginal dryness, which was part of it. When sex was 2 times a month, it was OK because it was over pretty quick. When I bump it up to 9 times a month, I started to last much longer and it was too much.

Going sexless has changed everything. 

Neglected-
You want your husband to find a new relationship so he will be the one to initiate a divorce? I wonder if that's what my wife wants me to do.

The difference is that I am very active in my daughters life, I I am not afraid to do housework. My wife also likes the companionship.


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## Trickster

Neglected-
Does your husband have it in him to be a good loving husband if he had the right fit for him?

In my search for a FWB, I have come close to several women who tell me their story.

One told me her hubby drank a lot and was mean and miserable. After the divorce, he married a younger woman, stopped drinking and seemed happier than when they were married. She said she didn't recognize him and he was like a whole different person. She even likes his new wife and they have luch all the time.

The brother of a neighbor (guy) of mine told me about the same thing. The brother became very happy after the divorce and found somebody new...

I have heard similar stories several times over again. Many here on TAM. Sometimes we spend way to long with the wrong person for us and both people are miserable. I know this yet it's hard to be the one to break up the family...

Divorce is in your future and I know it's in mine. It's just a matter of when.


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## neglected42

Bad Santa, my kids do not see my husband treat me like this. I never bring up issues he won't want to hear about until they are long in bed. I bring them up outside, so if he blows he won't wake them up. I know not to fight in front of the kids. I am a good parent and always think of their needs. Do my kids lose respect for me by my staying with their father? I can't imagine they would want to be left in his care. I feel bad for your poor mother. I cannot imagine my sons treating me like that after all I have done for them because their father was a bully. My children are very respectful and loving towards me. When the three older ones had a project in grade 1 where they had to talk about their hero, all three had me in there. Not a hockey player, not a super hero. They come to me to talk about everything, even puberty issues that I would expect them to go to their dad for. I am extremely close to all of my kids. It breaks my heart to think someday they may have no respect for me. I am, and always have tried to do what is best for them. I guess I really need to rethink this all. I thought I was protecting them by staying.

Trickster, that is really why I told my husband to look for someone new. I really do think he could find happiness elsewhere. I do think he would blossom. Our relationship is damaged. I can never give him what he needs.....admiration, love, passion. As I said, a bully and a wimp do not belong together. Even the counselor told me that alcoholics are happiest with other alcoholics. Even though he has cut down significantly, he would still prefer to be out drinking. It is so hard to make the right decision, when you don't know what that is.
One thing is for sure. Based on what I have read here and what I know, even though my husband could find happiness with someone else, I will not bring is up within our marriage again. That is something he should pursue once our marriage is dissolved. I suppose that is just a matter of when.


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## Mr.Fisty

Trickster said:


> Neglected-
> Does your husband have it in him to be a good loving husband if he had the right fit for him?
> 
> In my search for a FWB, I have come close to several women who tell me their story.
> 
> One told me her hubby drank a lot and was mean and miserable. After the divorce, he married a younger woman, stopped drinking and seemed happier than when they were married. She said she didn't recognize him and he was like a whole different person. She even likes his new wife and they have luch all the time.
> 
> The brother of a neighbor (guy) of mine told me about the same thing. The brother became very happy after the divorce and found somebody new...
> 
> I have heard similar stories several times over again. Many here on TAM. Sometimes we spend way to long with the wrong person for us and both people are miserable. I know this yet it's hard to be the one to break up the family...
> 
> Divorce is in your future and I know it's in mine. It's just a matter of when.



Actually, they did research on this. The waw syndrome awakes some men up and makes them see their reflection. They realize what they did wrong, and find the will power to change. Usually that change is too late. People do not tend to change until a catastrophic event occurs. 

In this case, he knows that she is walking out, and is trying to change himself to bring her back. All those years he didn't need to change, because she was not going to leave him, so why use the energy if you don't have too. Some men when their wife returns, or when they enter a new relationship, over a period of time will fall back on their habits. Only those who stay vigilant, and make it a goal to improve on a daily basis, turn their new behavior into a habit. Just like some alcoholics relapse later on in life, while some remain sober for the rest of their lives.


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## unbelievable

The law may allow him 50% custody but that doesn't mean he would want it. If he's an alcoholic, he cares mostly about alcohol and you can't drink kids. Up to this point in their lives has he gone out of his way to spend much time with them? If a guy neglects his wife, usually he neglects his kids even more.


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## Trickster

Neglected-

Many alcoholics deep down don't want to drink. The worst thing I could do is find another alcoholic. My wife doesn't drink at all and I like that. That's what I liked 22 years ago. That helped me stay sober for 17 years. 

Now that all expectations for sex are gone. Everything has changed. The thing is... There is nothing my wife has ever wanted me to change, unless she is afraid to say. The only thing was the sex. There is no going back.

I think the no sex had made us both a little happier. It's too soon for me to understand why that is. I think I accepted our friendship. Don't know.

Your husband may go off the deep end if you file for a divorce. More than likely, if he drinks a lot, you will get custody. If you can handle it financially with child support, divorce will work in your favor.

Now that the sex has stopped for us I have a new perspective I know there isn't anything I can do to go back, I don't care to drink.

Why does your husband drink?

I have been thinking a lot and I think I started drinking again for attention. I wanted to let my wife know I was hurt. Even when in stopped again and started going to AA, she laughed and said that I wasn't an alcoholic. I still believe I am though.

I also realized it's not me and it's not her. I stay married because she knows me better than I know myself. After 22 years, now that the blame game is over, we are still best friends. I also think when we do divorce, we will still be a big part of each othes life.

I am rambling here so i will stop for now.


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## chaos

Even if your plan worked and he got himself a GF, don't you think that the oldest kids would pick up on this and become justifiably angry and bitter towards their father for cheating on you, their mom? How would you explain it to them that you were the instigator of his affair?


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## MaritimeGuy

Trickster said:


> If we know we had bad role models as kids, once we become adults, at what point do we have to work harder for our own happiness? When do we stop blaming our parents? When do we empower yourself and our early life setbacks can encourage us to create a better life than what we experience as kids.
> 
> My parents were rotton role models. However, in their world and in their own life experiences, I want to believe they did their best. Then again, maybe they were selfish.
> 
> The divorced mom I talked about. She has a 16 year old. She blames her mom for not trying harder on their marriage. She is unhappy that her dad isn't in her life, except for some holidays and half the Summer.
> 
> I think we can blame parents either way.
> 
> Basically, we our children are screwed up no matter what we do.


I agree with you it's fruitless to blame our parents once we're out of the house. It may explain our outlook but doesn't stop us from choosing to live differently. We don't have to follow that role model. 

That doesn't mean as parents we shouldn't strive to be the best role models we can be. In the example you give of the girl blaming her mother for only seeing her father holidays and part of the summer her anger is misguided. That has nothing to do with her parents divorce. That was her fathers choice. 

I am divorced from my children's mother. Growing up they lived with me half the time and I attended every school function, parent-teacher interview, sports activity etc. That was my choice.


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## WonkyNinja

Trickster said:


> My wife refuses to divorce. She tells me I can do what I want, go where I want, have sex with who I want, she won't ask any questions...What will my 11 year old daughter think of me when she finds out dad has a gf?


I don't understand the "refuses to divorce". If you file she doesn't get to say "no we have to stay married". If you don't want a fault divorce then irreconcilable differences. If you want to be divorced and she wants to be married then that is an irreconcilable difference in itself.

Staying together and showing the kids that marriage is when two people who don't like each other stay in the same house in misery is one hell of a bad example to set for your kids. They have little chance of knowing how to behave when they grow up and have relationships themselves and will probably end up in the same sort of relationship.


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## WonkyNinja

neglected42 said:


> I certainly am petrified to leave the kids in his care. That is definitely what is keeping me here.


Why would you leave them in his care?

You can't cut him out of their lives as he is every bit a part of them that you are but that doesn't mean that you just leave and leave the kids behind.


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## WonkyNinja

Trickster said:


> Neglected
> 
> Many people here on TAM stay in an unhaapy, sexless, unloving marriage for the kids.
> 
> As of now, I see her every day. She is my world. I am sure your kids are your world as well.
> 
> At some point, we all have to decide if an unhappy loveless sexless marriage is worse than divorce for the children. Not so easy to decide if there is no arguments and both parents want to see the kids every day.


I wonder if in years time when your daughter is in an unhappy sexless marriage and as miserable as you are now you might think differently about the example you set for her.

Even teens see their parents as role models.They may not admit it but that is the main example that they have to make their future decisions on. Your decision is whether you are a good example or a bad example.


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## Yeswecan

Married but Happy said:


> What about the children? They are getting two terrible examples of how to be in a relationship - his and yours.


There is a third person in the relationship that is toxic. His name is alcohol. This is a huge issue. The H is clearly at fault IMO. Drinking and rage. Seen it, lived it and affected by it as a kid. My mom was not the cause of the drinking problem. One day witnessed my mom take her wedding ring and drop it in the sink garbage disposal and turn on the switch stating the marriage is over. You are very much at that point if not already past. 

OP, consider moving out with the kids. It may wake up you H but I read very clearly you are just done. I can understand. Competing against alcohol is very hard.


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## neglected42

The issue is 100% the kids here. I would have to leave the kids with my husband if he got 50% custody. It certainly would not be by choice. I would not be there to supervise. Understand, I am the reason my husband tries to control his temper, I am the reason my husband is controlling his drinking, I am the reason the gate to the pool is closed when my husband is hung over and absent mindedly leaves it open, I am the reason he hides his porn so the kids don't find it, I am the reason dangerous things are put away, I am the reason the television channel is changed when he wants to watch a scary, violent movie that is rated "R" with the five year old in the room. I could go on forever. He is not a responsible caregiver. He has, in the last five years got much worse. He is starting to see his older children as buddies. Out come the toys (letting the eight year old who is 40lbs soaking wet drive a quad alone that you legally have to be 16 to drive it, bringing out ninja stars then knives for the kids to throw at a board and then forgetting them outside for the five year old to get hold of, shooting rifles and guns with the kids in the presence of people drinking, him included.) 

Why does he drink? He has been a partyer since high school. Difference is the rest of us grew up. He has a HUGE entitlement issue when it comes to fun. Every second of every day should be fun. That is why he has so many friends. He is the ultimate drinking buddy. Problem is, sick kids, doctors appointments, household responsibilities, etc, etc are not fun.

I have looked into the issue of divorce with custody. I do have some proof of his drinking. It may not be enough, there are no guarantees.


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## Yeswecan

I believe you have legitimate cause to have the courts and child social services involved if he is this bad. In other words, the court will see you have sole custody of the children so your H does not have unsupervised visitation. I would start investigating the legality of an abusive/alcoholic H that is not functioning with safety for the children in mind.


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## Mr.Fisty

Start gathering evidence. Record these on your phone. Make copies, and keep them safe. Send these records to family and friends. Document his drunken behavior too. If you can gather all these evidence, there is no way he will get 50/50 custody. In all certainty, you will get sole custody, with child support, and a court making him go to rehab, if he even wants a chance to see his children. You leaving with evidence, may help turn his life around because he will hit rock bottom. You have been acting like a crutch for him, and it is time to let him fall, and learn to stand on his own feet.


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## chaos

Depending in what State you live in, you can request your attorney to petition the family court for a child custody evaluation to look into the mental health and parenting practices of one or both of the parents. A "Mini-Evaluation" or "Focused-Issue Evaluation" may also be ordered to help speed things up, since a thorough evaluation can take some time.

You may believe that your powerless but if you become knowledgeable with regards to your State's child custody laws and proceedings, you may be able to come to a custody resolution that will be satisfactory to you.


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## neglected42

True enough, but I don't think he would pick just anyone. He thinks quite highly of himself, and enjoys the status of having successful children, and a successful wife. I have been documenting as much as I can. Proving him unfit will be difficult. He is not drinking like he used to. His buddies would NEVER rat him out. 

Remember, everyone thinks he is great. He hangs around irresponsible alcoholics for the most part, and he is putting on a hell of a show right now. I live in Canada. His parents own a farm. The rules for what kids can and cannot do are very different on private property. He will not admit in court to any of this, and many people will turn against me for even trying to get custody. They will think, sure, he can be a bit irresponsible, but is a great guy. Remember, they do not experience the temper, the neglect, the selfishness. They experience a great guy, who loves to have a good time, and will help you out whenever you need it....(as long as you are offering a whiskey). My experience with my husband, and everybody else's is a different thing. (Save a few explosions on people in stores, etc, that pushed the wrong buttons, or his immediate family who live in denial). 

If I thought I could prove him unfit, I would have left long ago. 
The examples I give you are in the past. A lot of these things I did not know about, or could not prevent because they were out with their dad. He knows I would not approve of these things. It is the kids who tell me about them. At the time they were happening I was home with a very sick infant. I was overwhelmed and trapped. I could not follow him around and take pictures, I was barely making it to the next day. 

The last time he had the two older kids at the farm with the guns (Sept) he did not drink. He felt he deserved a medal for that. The thing was, everyone else out there was drinking. That is not grounds for not allowing him custody of his children. It is, however, an environment with terrible role modeling. 

He will never admit he is or was an alcoholic. He thinks he is a GREAT dad. He is popular and considered fun loving by many. He is charming. Trust me, you would all love to sit down and have a few drinks with him.

I started out in individual counselling. I could tell the counselor was not impressed with my situation, the way my husband was treating me, the amount he drank, his temper, the way he treated the children. When my husband went in to see him, the counselor told me "he is not going to like me when I am done with him". After my husband went to see the counsellor, we went in together. The counselor seemed quite different. I could tell my husband had charmed him. I could see doubt seeping in. How could this great guy be the same guy she told me about? Of course, after a few sessions he has realized I am not full of Sh..., but understand, it is not easy to see through him!!


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## GusPolinski

FWIW, I couldn't do it. Were I in your husband's shoes, I'd commit myself to improving myself as a man, husband, and father. And if my wife felt that -- in light of my past refusal to do so -- wasn't enough, I'd feel compelled to offer her an amicable divorce.

After all, your inability and/or unwillingness to embrace him as a wife should (ideally) embrace her husband (and, though that might sound awfully "judgey", I don't intend it as such... I just can't think of a better way to say it at the moment) is no reason that the both of you should needlessly suffer in an unfulfilling marriage.

And besides... would you really want your husband involved w/ the type of women that would choose to participate in such a relationship w/ a married man? Would you want your children exposed to such women? Would you want them to embrace the notion that the only way for the two of you to be happy in your marriage is for one or both of you to look outside your marriage?


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## donny64

Wolfman1968 said:


> Maybe he can't reconcile himself to the fact that the marriage is essentially dead.


Pretty much it I'm betting. 

My W's ex was much the same. Drank daily for many years. A lot. Drunk every night. She begged, pleaded, threatened for years. Nothing changed. 

Then one day she just left. Packed up her stuff and walked out the door. Still nothing changed. They even tried counseling post separation. Counselor told him he needed to get into AA immediately, and not to even think about contacting her until he'd been to 60 meetings and sober for 60 days. Apparently he never made it more than a week.

In her mind she was gone for good. She was disgusted with him. She was tired of living a life with someone who neglected her completely, and would rather sit alone getting drunk than spend any time with her. They hadn't had sex in a couple years, and averaged once or twice a year for years before that. 

In his mind, she would "be back". He admitted as much on several occasions.

He never gave up the drinking, save for short periods of time (a few weeks here or there). 

About 18 months after they'd split, he said "I know we still have a future together. We're not done yet". Even though I'd been telling her I thought he was still wanting her back, she didn't believe it until then. That's when she had to inform him about us. He was crushed. Still pining for her (despite the fact he neglected her, and despite the fact he was still drinking).

As recently as a few months ago, he still blames her. Says she should have given him "another chance". She about lost it and said she'd given him hundreds of chances! He said "I didn't think you were serious...but when you left and didn't come back, I knew you were". (Then why did he STILL not quit?) Unfortunately for him, about 8 months into their separation, she met me.

They (alcoholics) just don't think clearly. They believe that what they're doing is not so bad, and that you really won't leave. And as bad as the relationship likely is, it is still their "comfortable spot", their person to have in their lives, while they continue to drink themselves into a stupor every day.

He thought she was bluffing, and that she'd be back. She wasn't. By the time he realized that, it was too late.


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## wanttolove

Divorce him and marry me. In the mean time, talk to my wife. She could learn a lot from you.

My opinion that the option you are giving him is too nice, although giving him should abstain you from guilt once it is over.


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## Trickster

Neglected-

I am not trying to defend your husband...I just want to say a few things...

When I was 12, my mom died and I moved to Texas to live with my dad. My brother was 10. I never saw a shot gun before and for the first time my dad let me shoot it. The stock was too big for me and he had to cut a few inches off. My brother shot it as well. We we in our front yard... After all, it was the country. It wasnt long before we were off in the woods with the rifles. We also had a .22 semi automatic.


At 13, we camped out in the woods by ouself. By brother was 11. We never did that before. Eventually, there was about 8 of us kids/ friends all camping out in the woods without our parents.we built huge camp fires and it seem normal. It was the country. 

I rode a horse bare back on my step mothers ranch... My dad thought it was funny for me to ride with no saddle or bridle. I just held on tight to the mane. After all it was the country. 

My friend had a 3 wheeler. He was riding dirt bikes sine he was 5 ish. When I rode my first 3 wheeler, I slide straight into a barbed wire fence. After a few stitches, I was back to riding.

We used to jump off bridges into the bayou. We went out into the marsh on a small Jon boat and a couple of paddles (with our shot gun) There were aligators there. They were afraid of us too...

I remember those throwing stars growing up. We all had them. They were more fun than darts...


Now we live in the city. My daughter is almost 11 and doesn't know how to ride a bike, doesn't know how to swim, doesn't even ride a scooter and many things that her mother thinks are too "dangerous".

I am not able to teach my daughter life lessons and experiences that kids need and she is too sheltered...


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## Trickster

Neglected--

How long has sex with your husband been repulsive to you?


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## Trickster

If your husband were to find a woman to take him off your hands, filed for a divorce, moved in with her about a mile away, and eventually married, gave you custody, paid child support...would that make you happy?


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## Trickster

We had those nunchucks too. I knocked myself upside the head I dont know how many times.


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## Trickster

My wife doesn't even think we need a hand gun for protection. How can I protect my family if there is an intruder? 

"Guns are too dangerous"


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## neglected42

Trickster, trust me, I am not into sheltering kids. My dad is a hunter. I have been around guns and hunting my whole life. I fully think that if kids are interested in hunting and there are guns around the house, they need to be taught how to use them safely. Having everyone out shooting guns and partying is a different thing. That is not teaching kids anything about responsibility. 

Everything my husband does involves booze, so as he brings our children into his world and hobbies, they see all these activities involve booze. Snowmobiling - he takes the kids for a ride, meets his buddies on the trail, stops and has a drink, boating - going out fishing - don't forget the cooler (not a problem as long as you are not driving the boat - but he is!), shooting guns - bring out the whiskey, riding quads, four wheeling, driving the field car, throw axes, knives, all these activities revolve around his buddies and drinking, and he is bringing our kids out and modeling this.

I have no problem with kids riding quads that are suitable for their age group. A forty lb 8 year old should not be driving a quad built for grown-ups. We live in the sticks, so I know people die when these things roll on them. It happens more than it should around here.

I think kids need to get out and experience life, including the risks associated with it. I am not an overprotective mom. I just do not want my husband bringing my kids into his alcoholic world and turning them into his newest drinking buddies. My kids are full of potential. All academically strong. My oldest wants to be a doctor. He has the IQ and work ethic to do it. 

Yes, intheory, they are like their own little sick society. Which is why when my husband brings his kids along they don't think anything of it. 

I have many friends. I have not fully disclosed the situation to them. Many at work suspect, my closest friends do not know how bad it got. He is doing better now. I hope it lasts for the sake of our kids. I think he is at least starting to listen to me about the bad role model he is providing.


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## just got it 55

N42 the larger question is Why do you even ask

You know the answer

Simply put

He lacks the capacity to change

If he has to be threatened and even if you carry through on those threats and still no change where does that leave you and your family.

55


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## neglected42

Trickster, my fourth child was born with GERD and food issues. He was a very sick little thing for 3 years. My husband left me to deal with him and the other kids. He just kept having a good time. That was five years ago. That is when sex started to be a negative thing. I lost respect, but felt trapped. Would him finding another women, moving out, giving me custody and paying a little support (I don't need much, I have a good job and am good with money) make me happy? Like I won the lottery!


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## NotLikeYou

neglected42 said:


> I need the opinion of men here. I have another thread, so will make a long story short.
> 
> I still don't love him.
> 
> We are in counselling for the fourth time. It is like beating a dead horse. He accepts very little responsibility. It is frustrating for me and the counselor.
> 
> Why is he not jumping at this offer?? He was worried what people would think of him. I told him to tell people we had an arrangement.....and I would do the same.
> 
> Why is he so angry at me. I cannot help the way I feel. He got me here. I feel like I am offering him the best thing I can. It certainly seems better than me leaving and him trying to figure out everything on his own.
> 
> The men out there who were left by their wives, would you have taken offence to this? I told him I would not be looking for another relationship. I have NO desire for another relationship. I am just trying to do what is best for the kids, and I think this would also be in his best interest as well. Am I wrong?


Dear Neglected42. You title this thread "Ok men, why does he not take advantage of this," with "this" being "free pass to go have sex with other women."

Your husband is a scumbag, the lowest of the low. He is vile, hateful, and without redeeming value. He is a failure as a man, a husband, and a father.

To you.

But as bad as he is, you've stuck by him for 25 years.

As much of a ****up as he is, he still manages to hold down a job and hold up his end of the marriage in that regard.

He isn't a perfect father. And you keep that firmly in focus.

He is such a stupid dolt that he still believes in being faithful to his wife, and has some crazy outdated notion that a married couple should have sex with each other occasionally.

His loving wife is so filled with contempt and hatred for him that she urges him to go **** other women.

His wife is such a damaged, uh, person, that she can't understand why this man who made a terrible choice of women to marry long ago would not want to go have sex with other women. His wife is so morally bankrupt that she has no value for loyalty and fidelity from her mate.

It can be quite off-putting to realize that your partner is operating from a place of no ethics.

Neglected, your husband is angry because by your words and actions, you have demonstrated to him in no uncertain terms that he is weak, and that he is a failure.

Because you have given him every reason to divorce you, and he lacks the strength of character to do so.

Please be patient with him- it can take awhile for a guy to internalize that he has no value to his spouse. You just have to have a little faith that he will eventually work things out, make the right decision, and divorce you.


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## Trickster

Neglected-

Is there ANYTHING you find good in him?


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## neglected42

Wow, cruel, a coward, now morally bankrupt. Whew! Well, I asked. Look, I get some of you see my offer to my husband as something that comes from contempt and hatred. It really was not. 

You see, I am scared. I have been scared for many years. Scared my husbands alcoholism is going to damage our kids. I operated on a daily basis in damage control mode. I guess I am still doing that. I have a feeling it is a natural consequence of living with an alcoholic.

I think the offer to my husband was just more damage control. It was not made out of hatred or contempt. I see the situation I am in, and am trying to navigate through it without causing a whole sh... load of damage.

My physical response to my husband, although seems to offend many of you, is not a choice. Our counsellor has told me many times that it is perfectly normal and expected for someone in my situation. It does not come from contempt or hatred.

I guess, in my damage control mode, I looked at our situation and came up with a solution that seemed to have the least damage.
1. My husband and I live in the same house. He is not overwhelmed with responsibilities that he has never had to deal with before. This helps him continue to stay calm when dealing with four little boys. (Lets face it, it would be difficult for Mother Theresa to stay calm in our household some days. It would be near impossible for a recovering alcoholic with a crap tonne of new responsibilities.)
2. During this time my husband is free to find himself someone who is not damaged. I am. Ok, bad idea. I get it. This part of the plan did not come from hate nor contempt. I see my husband is suffering. He wants my affection and needs it. I cannot provide it. I know he can find happiness, especially if he continues to control his temper and alcohol intake. There is some women out there for him that will make him happy. I WANT that for him. I am sure that it will be hard for me to see, but I realize it is not fair to him to continue without affection or sex. I get that!! Men write in TAM constantly regarding this. I feel horrible that I cannot provide that for my husband. But I am damaged, and cannot. I have been honest with him. I have not mislead him regarding this in any way.
3. Once he met a new woman, and found happiness. Then we could divorce. We tell the kids that mommy and daddy have been living like friends for many years. We did that because it worked best for us and them. Now, it is time to move on with our lives. Everything will be fine. We love them always.
4. My husband continues in his recovery, and continues to control his temper. He does this because he is in love and has found a partner who can provide him with what he needs. 
5. The kids realize we have not had a normal marriage, hence know not to model their behaviour based on it. They still had a stable home. They have led a happy life day to day. 

Clearly I was naïve in my thinking, but none of it came from a bad place. None of it was based on hatred. Just basic damage control. As I said, it is my default. I appreciate all the advice, even if some is quite harsh. I know men and women look at things very differently, so value any information I can get from "the other side"


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## Westwind

It seems he is changing somewhat for the better which means he could become a more responsible father and not endanger the kids if you get a divorce? Of course reconciliation would require 25 years of acting the opposite to undo the 25 years of neglect you have suffered. This is not something intellectual where you can decide he might be worth another chance, but feelings deep inside you that are not amenable to intellectual rationale. You could stick around a little longer to try and influence his behavior for the better for the sake of the kids, but I could be all wrong about that because I do not have any experience dealing with an alcoholic plus there are your feelings trying to deal with his behavior.

Do not feel guilty about your feelings, if you do you will just push it all down into the subconscious where it will pop back up in a more uncontrollable way.

Also, remember previous posts here about now hard it is for a guy to meet other women if he is still married, and if he did meet someone while married, maybe the woman would not be the type you would want around your kids, but would more likely be as irresponsible as he is.


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## MachoMcCoy

If you want to do something for your husband, LEAVE HIM.


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## Trickster

Neglected-

I don't really think you are being mean. You are giving your husband a chance to find love, I guess my wife is doing the same. You ate helping me understand what my wife may be feeling...

Can you continue like it is until the kids are grown? Providing that he isn't a raging drunk and a danger to your kids. Your marriage will be loveless and sexless. It will be a home though. An intact family. You both get to be there every night for the kids. For me, I don't see my wife and I having sex again. 

If he is as broken as you describe, he won't find another woman, maybe a ONS, but probably nothing more.

How large is your town, how many opportunities do you feel he will actually have? And when?

I see YOU probably meeting somebody first. Most men wouldn't care if you are married or not. I know you said you have no interest...


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## Mr.Fisty

You can't be responsible for his actions forever, and you can't take the responsibility for his happiness, he is responsible for putting himself into the circumstance to be happy. You have been a crutch for him for so long, that it has been a big part of your life. You have been the main reason why the family is afloat, and really you should not take blame for being mentally exhausted because you have gone beyond what is required. If you feel like he is a danger, get the proper authorities involved. If he loses custody, that is on him, and your again taking responsibility for him. Your not his mother to watch over him, and he is an adult. If he is not allow to hit rock bottom because you keep on bailing him out, how will he grow and learn that he can't rely on you forever to be there for him. Even though he made some slight changes for now, it will not last, as he has some major issues that will require more help that the two of you are not equip to deal with.


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## Trickster

N42

What's your husbands parents like?


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## neglected42

> About children and divorce, I like John Gottman’s book on Raising An Emotionally Intelligent Child The Heart of Parenting. This book tells how to take care of kids when there is a divorce


 Westwind, thank-you. I will read this book ASAP. That will be a good use of my Christmas holidays.

I have read through this thread again, and have received a lot of very good and helpful advice. I will move forward taking it into consideration.....and have certainly dropped the girlfriend option.
(I did only mention it once, and it was months after we discussed my lack of love and closeness)

I was a little hesitant about intruding into the testosterone zone, but am glad I did. Weird how I would be nervous.....being that this is all anonymous.

Trickster, I cannot foresee any relationship. I have become anxious...jittery. I have always been shy around men. I was out at a rather large Christmas party last night. I felt socially awkward. I really don't enjoy the attention of men anymore. It makes me self conscious, uncomfortable. I will keep my attention focussed on my children. I have many female friends, and am very close to my family. I really have been alone for the most part of the last 20 years. I am used to it.

For you, however, I totally understand the fear of not seeing your child every day. I am sure, like myself, your child is your favourite person on the planet. They are an integral part of your life for such a short period of time. You don't want to miss any of that. I so get that! Your wife is a good person and a good caretaker. If she is your best friend, can you not continue to be friends in separate places? If your daughter is in sporting events, school plays, etc, you could still go to them when it is not your week. You could still sit with your exwife to watch. Your daughter will not suffer if she has two loving parents who always act in her best interest, and remain friends. I think you should start to think about your best interests as well.


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## Trickster

My daughter's best friend had a recital and we were invited. Her parents are divorced. Her mother has a new live in bf and was there as well. The parents...sat up front ( not together) and the bf sat next to my wife and I. As it turned out. They both forgot their own daughter at the performance and we took her home. They had a little celebration for the daughter and forgot her because of their issues. They hate each other. I saw that...

My wife and I are not like that... YET!

Before their divorce, she told him to see other woman. It took about a year, but they were on a family vacation and after everybody was asleep, the hubby went to a club, picked up a woman and brought her back to the room with the family...(wife and kids) there, had sex and his wife caught them in the act. He wanted to prove that another woman would "want" him. The d cost him over $20,000. At least they have 50/50 custody. What I find interesting is that the bf looks just like the ex. She is the career woman. Also, her ex worked from home and as it turns out... The live in bf works from home too. She has a built in kid sitter.the ex still hasn't found a woman... Nothing he wants to reveal.

For the weekend, my wife and daughter are out of town visiting my wife's sister. I had to work. I also spent a lot of time cleaning and decluttering... I went out to dinner at a sports bar to watch the game and had 2 beers. Today I volunteered a couple hours at the animal shelter, I continued cleaning, and rewarded myself with a movie...popcorn and everything. No hot dates lined up... Nothing... My wife will come home to very clean bathrooms and a very organized linen closet.. I'm the neat freak though...My wife won't even notice. I don't expect we will have sex either.

I miss my daughter terribly... Yes even my wife...


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## 3Xnocharm

neglected42 said:


> For you, however, I totally understand the fear of not seeing your child every day. I am sure, like myself, your child is your favourite person on the planet. They are an integral part of your life for such a short period of time. You don't want to miss any of that. I so get that! Your wife is a good person and a good caretaker. * If she is your best friend, can you not continue to be friends in separate places? If your daughter is in sporting events, school plays, etc, you could still go to them when it is not your week. You could still sit with your exwife to watch. Your daughter will not suffer if she has two loving parents who always act in her best interest, and remain friends. I think you should start to think about your best interests as well.*


VERY wise words, here! When people leave themselves stuck in these situations and say its because of their kids, they have lost sight that you NEVER stop parenting your kids! Kids thrive with parents who thrive.


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## neglected42

Well of course they hate each other! My God, to have sex with a women in a room with your family there sleeping?!?! Just because you don't love each other anymore doesn't give anyone permission to start treating each other like sh.... I am sure it takes a certain amount of maturity to continue on in a respectful manner. If both parents truly love their children, that will be the motivation to get along. 

You are both acting in a mature and respectful manner to each other right now. You do this day by day because you both are trying to do the absolute best for your daughter. Why would that suddenly change because you live separately? You seem to genuinely like and respect your wife, and her you.

I see a lot of examples that are quite the opposite of what you just stated. There is a newly divorced couple I know. I see them both at soccer and hockey games. They sit together sometimes, laugh, cheer. I heard him over at her car the other day.......he said - I'll be by this afternoon to pick up Luke. We are going to hang out for a couple of hours. She said - sure, I'll have him ready. 

A friend of mine at work is living with a women who is divorced. They have her ex husband over for Thanksgiving every year. They work together with raising the kids. (Discuss all aspects of raising children - curfews, cell phones, etc,etc). The three if them work like a team. The ex-husband has had a few girlfriends, but nothing permanent.

I am scared to leave my children in my husband's care. You have the confidence of knowing when your child is with your wife, she is in excellent care. You do not need to protect your daughter. 

Have you spoken to your wife about separation?


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## Trickster

neglected42 said:


> Have you spoken to your wife about separation?



Yes, and divorce.

Financially, the only option my wife would have would be to move 4 hours away with her sister, who is an attorney, and take our daughter with her. She would give me the house and I would assume all the debt. It would turn into a fight I'd rather not put myself and daughter though. 

How whole marriage has been more of a platonic love. 4 years ago, I tried to make it more of a romantic love... That backfired on me.

If I can accept this platonic love, like I did for so many years, my wife has given me the freedom to develop relationships and still keep an intact family where I can see my daughter everyday...I think she does that out of love... I didn't see it like that before.

My daughter is my world. Like I said above, they are away for a few day and I have been crazy busy to make time pass quicker... I miss by daughter...


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## neglected42

Your daughter is approaching an age where her world will revolve around friends and boys. She may not spend much time at home soon. You may have a hard time with that. I know my lack of loneliness comes from the fact that I am surrounded by my kids. I remember feeling lonely before I had them. I realize that is what it will feel like when they are gone. 

I am confused. In Canada, you are not allowed to move 4 hours away from a biological parent upon divorce. You are entitled to 50% custody....how can she move 4 hours away?

Is your wife working? Could you not put some money aside so she has first and last months rent, and then continue from there. Perhaps you both will have to downsize?

It is a difficult thing. She probably won't be leaving home until she is around 18. That is another 7 years. Most of which she will be living her own life, doing her own thing. Do you think you can continue like this for that long?


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## Trickster

neglected42 said:


> Your daughter is approaching an age where her world will revolve around friends and boys. She may not spend much time at home soon. You may have a hard time with that. I know my lack of loneliness comes from the fact that I am surrounded by my kids. I remember feeling lonely before I had them. I realize that is what it will feel like when they are gone.
> 
> I am confused. In Canada, you are not allowed to move 4 hours away from a biological parent upon divorce. You are entitled to 50% custody....how can she move 4 hours away?
> 
> Is your wife working? Could you not put some money aside so she has first and last months rent, and then continue from there. Perhaps you both will have to downsize?
> 
> It is a difficult thing. She probably won't be leaving home until she is around 18. That is another 7 years. Most of which she will be living her own life, doing her own thing. Do you think you can continue like this for that long?




Neglected, this is supposed to your thread.....

You and I both don't know if we can do this long term. Your husband may never file for divorce and my wife definitely doesn't want a divorce or a separation...you and I both have to make that decision. Our spouses won't do that.



With my SIL' connections, my wife has a job waiting for her earning way more than she will ever make here. The question is, would I let it turn into a battle. I don't know if there is a limit to how far away a spouse can move. My wife is still lost with a career direction. I know.... Not my problem with a divorce...


Our daughter wouldn't want to go though. Even though she is just 11, she has a few really good friends. One who she has known since she was 3 years old. My wife and daughter got back today and her friend is over here already. I think its so great she has friends like that. Moving would be a last resort option. 

If I back my wife into a hole, she may do that. They could suggest I move as well. My SIL would even help me connect with people to rebuild my business there. I still get along great with my in-laws. 

The better option is the same thing you suggested... Even though it's a crazy idea. My SIL, the attorney, knows about our agreement... On some level she understands because she still talks to me. She is in a long term marriage. I know they issues too...

I think I am too broken to find love. Too much baggage...as far as setting a good example of a loving relationship, its not gonna happen in the near future. 

I have moments of sadness, but overall, I have accepted our new arrangement. 

Eventually, I will find a FWB. hopefully not a crazy one... When that happens, it will be the game changer...

Until then, I get to see my daughter every day..


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## just got it 55

MachoMcCoy said:


> If you want to do something for your husband, LEAVE HIM.


N42 maybe you should check out Zannes Thread

She went outside the marriage that's the difference.

It's a very sad story.

I agree with MMC

55


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## PieceOfSky

MachoMcCoy said:


> We now all agree that offering him the freedom to find a new girlfriend was stupid.





Speak for yourself. Her offer was what it was, is what it is. 



I find your telling her that her request to her husband was "stupid" to be shaming and offensive. To tell her to start a new thread is inappropriate and absurd.


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## neglected42

just got it 55, I am a bit confused regarding your last post. I have read some of Zanne's thread. I have to admit, the way she talked about her lack of emotional connection and lack of feelings towards her husband in her first post definitely struck a chord with me. It also appeared to be the result of his anger issues and perhaps a drug problem. Other than that, we are very different people.

I do not go outside of my marriage in search of "emotional connections". I have many close friendships with women, and am close to my family. I have never tarnished my husbands good reputation by talking to anyone regarding the way he has treated me. I have been silent. I have no boundary issues. The only people who know of this are the people on TAM and our marriage counsellors. If anything, my boundaries are like a fortress. 

There is NO WAY I would ever have an affair.....of any kind. It is not even remotely within my capabilities. If there is one thing I am capable of it is overactive guilt. If I did something like that, the guilt would kill me! (Literally, it would make me ill). 

I am wondering, in what way do you think I will end up like her?


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## neglected42

Bad Santa - witty, jaded, sarcastic - I am starting to "get" your posts (and name). Humor, I wasn't expecting it.


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## thummper

I'm sorry you're having to go through this, Neglected. I fear that a lot of members of my own sex are totally clueless when it comes to caring for those who should be most dear to them. Sounds like you've got yourself hooked up with one of those. I hope the future holds a lot of better things for you. Not meaning to be ironic here, considering the topic, but I hope you can have a good Christmas (at least as much as you're able.)


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## neglected42

Thank-you thummper, I will have a wonderful Christmas. I have four boys who are literally bursting with excitement and enthusiasm, I have a family who I am looking forward to spending time with, I have friends who make me laugh until I cry and my jaw hurts, and of course there is the indulgence of Christmas food. All aspects of my life are a "10", except my relationship with my husband. I will just focus on everything else! Have a Merry Christmas!


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## just got it 55

neglected42 said:


> just got it 55, I am a bit confused regarding your last post. I have read some of Zanne's thread. I have to admit, the way she talked about her lack of emotional connection and lack of feelings towards her husband in her first post definitely struck a chord with me. It also appeared to be the result of his anger issues and perhaps a drug problem. Other than that, we are very different people.
> 
> I do not go outside of my marriage in search of "emotional connections". I have many close friendships with women, and am close to my family. I have never tarnished my husbands good reputation by talking to anyone regarding the way he has treated me. I have been silent. I have no boundary issues. The only people who know of this are the people on TAM and our marriage counsellors. If anything, my boundaries are like a fortress.
> 
> There is NO WAY I would ever have an affair.....of any kind. It is not even remotely within my capabilities. If there is one thing I am capable of it is overactive guilt. If I did something like that, the guilt would kill me! (Literally, it would make me ill).
> 
> I am wondering, in what way do you think I will end up like her?


Sorry N42 I did not mean to suggest that's where you where you were headed I will edit my post to reflect clearly what I wanted to point out.I do see how you would draw that conclusion.

Again my apologies .

55


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## Trickster

neglected42 said:


> Thank-you thummper, I will have a wonderful Christmas. I have four boys who are literally bursting with excitement and enthusiasm, I have a family who I am looking forward to spending time with, I have friends who make me laugh until I cry and my jaw hurts, and of course there is the indulgence of Christmas food. All aspects of my life are a "10", except my relationship with my husband. I will just focus on everything else! Have a Merry Christmas!


That's a good attitude neglected... I put way too much energy into my marriage without any improvement. The most important person in this mess is our daughter and if I focus on what is good, then I seem to be a happier person to be around...I have enough good things in my life to keep me happy...

That's all any of us can do.


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