# Infidelity is only part of the problem



## 413southmain (Dec 25, 2014)

My wife and I are due to celebrate our 17th anniversary tomorrow; however, as it has seem to become the norm now, we end up in an argument right before our celebration that causes the anniversary to tank. 

After last night's argument I am now convinced that my wife believes that I am solely responsible for the entirety of her horrific marriage experience with me. She may say that she has some contribution to her experience, but she says that as if to acknowledge the law of averages, not genuine ownership of the part she plays in her own life experiences. 

We are a blended family, I was married for 10 years, with one daughter, before I met my current wife. She had a son from a previous marriage, but was never married. Both of our children are in their adult years now, with families of their own, and we have a daughter together who just turned 16 and is living with us. I have fully embraced and adopted her son as my own; he still calls me by my first name, but I have been the only dad he has ever known. 

My wife has created such a thick and awkward wall between her and my oldest daughter that the fact that my daughter even speaks to her, let alone engages with her willingly is a testament to my daughter's character, not my wife's--and my wife blames my daughter for being immature in their relationship! My wife constantly complains and criticizes our daughter-in-law, her own parents and siblings, her friends, church leadership, school leadership, and virtually anyone that does not do things the way that she thinks they should be done. 

Late last year, my wife found out that I had taken out a loan, under my name, to accelerate a side consulting business I had been operating for several years. I didn't tell her about the loan, but I was making payments and the business was growing (I have been the sole breadwinner in the house since we got married and we have a household income in the multiple 6-figure range). I admit that I should have told her about it, but for a lot of different factors, I chose not to. When she found out about the loan, I apologized to her and told her that I would never keep anything else from her again. At which point, she very nonchalantly told me that I might as well know that she had had an affair with a former boyfriend about 3 months earlier.

Several years earlier, she had taken a trip to her hometown with our youngest daughter and I found out that she had spent the weekend with her former boyfriend and his young daughter. I love my wife and I really wanted to have a mature response to her sharing that she had an affair, and I know that there are so many factors that would push someone toward infidelity, so I tried to empathize with her and learn why she chose the path that she did. She completely resented me for that. My wife has tried a number of things: health coaching, interior design, child care, nutritionist, among various retail jobs just to give herself something to do and have some spending money of her own. 

Some of these "hobbies" have cost thousands of dollars to send her to school, which I was happy to pay, but she has quit every single one of them. Her only focus and direction in life are from decorating our house and her kids and grandkids. She sees herself as the only one "keeping the family together." I don't believe that she sees the part that she plays in why her life and our marriage look the way they do and whenever I bring up such notions I get a venomous backlash saying that I'm just criticizing her.

Apologies for so much backstory. I don't pretend to be a saint, I definitely have my shortcomings, but when your partner is convinced they are not the problem or even a part of the problem, but you are the problem, how do you move the marriage forward. I'm more than willing to own up to and work toward improving the things I have control over, but I can't take responsibility for the whole of our marriage. Or should I!?


----------



## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

413southmain said:


> I can't take responsibility for the whole of our marriage. Or should I!?


No, you shouldn't.

And honestly, it sounds like she needs a psych evaluation... Nothing is ever good enough, criticism, jumping from job to job/interest to interest, lack of empathy, inflated sense of self, etc.


----------



## paboy (May 27, 2020)

You seemed to be overwhelmed with all these fronts coming at you, and are not seeing the wood from the tree's.

From your story, she was unfaithful 7 years ago with an old boyfriend, and informs that 3 months ago she was unfaithful again with the same man. If her unhappiness escalated during this time, she has been in an affair with him this whole time. Regardless what she would say, her actions say otherwise.

You seem not to concerned about the affair, which leads me to consider, Did your relationship with her commence from an affair.


----------



## iamtony92 (Jun 27, 2020)

How to Save Your Marriage On Your Own

One of the most common questions spouses ask when confronting a marriage crisis is this: How can I save my marriage if my partner doesn't want to help find a solution? How do I succeed I am trying to save my marriage on my own?

It is a typical enough story: one partner leaves, the other stays. One remains 'in love', the other is uncertain. Whatever it is that has caused a couple to be apart, the one person who remains bears the prospect, fear, doubt, desire, hope of saving his or her marriage' ALONE.

Considering there are two people contributing to the overall health and wellbeing of a marriage, shouldn't both of you be present to actually try and save it? Or, worse, when it's his, her, their fault so shouldn't he, she, they be the ones to make amends? You're just the victim here, after all!

The first thing you must know is if you want to save your marriage and if you find yourself alone in this desire, waiting for the other spouse to make the first move is the beginning of the end. If you are looking for someone to blame or someone else to put the emotional and physical work into saving the marriage, again, it's going to fail.

The belief that the responsibility lies with the other person is a self-defeating attitude. It propagates the belief that there is absolutely NOTHING you can do to save your marriage and you should stand and watch what comes your way.

NOT true!

There is still something you CAN DO. Even in your loneliness and solitude, you CAN save your marriage.

How? Let's begin first by examining what it means to be on your own.

As human beings, we hate being alone. It's part of our genetic make up to be social creatures and develop connections with others, whether through friendships or romantic interest. The way we connect with others and the nature of how we interact with people is a fundamental aspect of personal and emotional development.

The paradox is that as we grow older in the love, trust, companionship and support of our significant others, we develop an internal strength of self that makes us whole, happy human beings. Ideally, the mature human person should have developed a strong sense of self-awareness, confidence and self-esteem as he or she reaches adulthood. These become the windows with which we view the world, flaws and all. These make up part of our personal shelter amidst challenges and difficulties. This is called SELF-ACTUALIZATION.

However, many of us enter into adult life without even being aware of this beautiful, human truth. We may have experienced abandonment in our childhood or been disappointed by our romantic relationships; whatever it is, it has caused to shift from proper mature development to fears of abandonment and the inability to see that we can stand on our own two feet.

Thus, many of us enter relationships and marriages with the hope, plan and dream that we would never be alone. We invest so much in our partners and loved ones, focusing our entire beings on them and relying on them to make us happy and secure. Unfortunately, this perspective carries with it its own poison. Subconsciously, we project the responsibility of our life happiness on the other person, eloquently sidestepping taking responsibility for our own life happiness and destiny.

Problems develop when a partner indicates some form of dissatisfaction with the relationship or the expectations unwittingly placed upon them, and when they do so, we panic. When our partner leaves, our fears kick in. When something goes wrong with our marriages, it is very easy for us to place the blame of the other person for having made us unhappy.

In order to save your marriage when you are the only one doing it, the key then is a paradigm shift, meaning, the key is to change your attitude and focus. Stop focusing on your partner - stop the blaming, stop the inaction.

Take a good look at yourself and what you can do in this moment. You can definitely NOT control your partner's feelings, attitude and reactions, but you can control your own. You can go from fearing abandonment to actually taking responsibility for yourself and your own happiness.

This is where the human truth about self-actualization comes in. Understand, adapt and internalize this for yourself. Learn it. It will spell the difference not just in your marriage but in YOU.

A whole human being is easy to love. A happy person attracts happiness. In starting with yourself, you can move from being an unhappy, clingy, difficult person to one who can provide an environment of safety, wisdom, trust and open communication. If each of you are able to self-sustain when it comes to taking responsibility for your own life happiness, you both have much less baggage and much more genuine love to bring into the relationship. Your motivation shifts from being one of fear to being one of real love.

Rather than beat yourself up in desperation, try these tips to start your own personal transformation and lead your marriage to success:


Breathe
Smile
Let go
Believe that reconnection is possible
See a counselor for YOURSELF not just for your marriage
Examine your part in contributing to the difficulties in your marriage
Forgive yourself
Change
Look after your health, beauty and well-being
For all you know, your partner (and you) may just rediscover the person they first fell in love with and more. For all you know, this is the type of you that would allow your partner to come back and initiate communication. When that happens, you have every opportunity to sit down with him or her, discuss your motivations, plans and feelings. You can even get to the real issues surrounding your marital difficulties and actually begin taking positive steps to work them through.

In being open and mature, you can also provide an environment where love and intimacy can flourish once more. With all the confidence and sincerity you have gathered, take these steps. Plus one more. Even in your separation, conflict or difficulties, find it in you to continue loving your partner and showing him or her that you do. Through little, subtle acts, like preparing a snack for him or her or spending some quality TV time, you can rekindle love in your marriage. They don't have to be grand gestures, they just have to be sincere. And coming from the mature, new you, they will.

Link removed by moderator.

Because your marriage deserves better!


----------



## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

413southmain said:


> I'm more than willing to own up to and work toward improving the things I have control over, but I can't take responsibility for the whole of our marriage. Or should I!?


You wouldn't likely be responsible for everything in your marriage that displeases her, but you can't blow off her complaints about you as being without merit only to criticize everything about her. That's what you did here and based on your description, it's also what you do to her. It's easy to get defensive and quite a human thing to do but rather than solve anything, it only causes arguments without addressing the problems or dealing with them constructively. And you're here complaining about the arguments. It's common for people to not know how to argue. One party says "You do such and such that displeases me" and rather than confronting and dealing with what they said, the other party starts criticizing and saying things like "Yeah well, you do this and that." Where else except in an argument can that possibly end up?

Rather than criticizing her, what you see as her faults, and her lack of taking responsibility for the condition of your marriage, why not address her specific complaints about you? And then make those adjustments and improvements. Until you do that, turning the tables on her won't work. And it's the only way you can "own up to and work toward improving the things" you have control over if you really mean it. 

I can't speak about everything you said about your wife, but I can tell you that problems between stepmother and stepdaughter are very common, and the husband/father of these two usually finds himself as the monkey in the middle because it's difficult for him to fathom or accept that his daughter is anything but perfect. But it's the stepchild(ren) that usually cause the friction in that relationship, often because daddy never sees his kids' faults and doesn't appreciate his wife complaining about them. So, they never get addressed, and the wife always gets blamed. That's the way it usually goes even though there is a possibility your wife is to blame since you see her as unwilling to take responsibility for anything.


----------



## TJW (Mar 20, 2012)

413southmain said:


> wife believes that I am solely responsible for the entirety
> Her only focus and direction in life are from decorating our house and her kids and grandkids.


Yep. entirety of the marital problems, entirety of the money, entirety of the work and responsibility. Her function in life is to do what trips her trigger, while you bust your ass.

My friend, BTDT. You are, unfortunately, a plan-B, beta, provider guy. And your wife has you by the short hairs because she knows the courts will force you to keep her supported.
That's why the nonchalance about "confessing" her affair. She knows you can't stop paying her way, she doesn't have to keep a job. A person who doesn't have to work, doesn't.

Your business is, well, quite frankly, YOUR business. You make business decisions. It's really none of her business. She doesn't contribute, she has no say.



413southmain said:


> I should have told her about it, but for a lot of different factors, I chose not to.


You are perfectly within your right to tell her or not to tell her, as you see fit. There's no "should" here, it is YOUR business and YOUR money. You don't enumerate the factors, but when I was in your shoes, and my WW did her thing, I kept EVERYTHING to myself, from then on. Everything. She knew NOTHING. I made quite sure of it.

The sad, unfortunate part of this is..... that a divorce will be an utter trip to the cleaners for you.


----------



## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

You wrote about so much that I completely forgot you mentioning the affair your wife had. And it's a little confusing as to how many affairs and when they occurred. But, as far as I'm concerned, the only way to deal with infidelity is to leave. I would not be trying to fix anything with a person who was unfaithful to me because the affair and the pain it caused me cannot be fixed since it cannot be undone. It sounds like you are blaming yourself as if something you did or didn't do caused her to be unfaithful, but I assure you it was not your fault. Whatever you did or didn't do in your marriage, the decision to cheat was entirely her own.

However, I beg to differ with anyone who says it was okay for you to keep the loan from your wife. It's not just your money and your business, it's both of yours. This might be part of the problem in your marriage but again, her decision to cheat was totally on her.


----------



## 413southmain (Dec 25, 2014)

paboy said:


> You seemed to be overwhelmed with all these fronts coming at you, and are not seeing the wood from the tree's.
> 
> From your story, she was unfaithful 7 years ago with an old boyfriend, and informs that 3 months ago she was unfaithful again with the same man. If her unhappiness escalated during this time, she has been in an affair with him this whole time. Regardless what she would say, her actions say otherwise.
> 
> You seem not to concerned about the affair, which leads me to consider, Did your relationship with her commence from an affair.


No, didn't commence from an affair. I was married for 10 years, divorced for a year before I met her (in no relationship between the two). I am VERY concerned about the affair, but I'm not convinced that is not the most critical thing. I know it is often sensationalized that way because of the shock and awe value, but for me, what I would like to focus on is trying to build a healthy marriage with her. Focusing on the affair would seem to detract from that. I know that we will have to dig through that at some point, but there just seems to be too much other muck in the way right now. Focusing on the affair would seem to give her an added excuse of not having to look at herself. Might be errant thinking, but it doesn't seem that any other approach would let us get back to the table to talk.


----------



## 413southmain (Dec 25, 2014)

StarFires said:


> You wrote about so much that I completely forgot you mentioning the affair your wife had. And it's a little confusing as to how many affairs and when they occurred. But, as far as I'm concerned, the only way to deal with infidelity is to leave. I would not be trying to fix anything with a person who was unfaithful to me because the affair and the pain it caused me cannot be fixed since it cannot be undone. It sounds like you are blaming yourself as if something you did or didn't do caused her to be unfaithful, but I assure you it was not your fault. Whatever you did or didn't do in your marriage, the decision to cheat was entirely her own.
> 
> However, I beg to differ with anyone who says it was okay for you to keep the loan from your wife. It's not just your money and your business, it's both of yours. This might be part of the problem in your marriage but again, her decision to cheat was totally on her.


I know the choice to have an affair was entirely hers. She has no one to point to other than herself. I don't mean to minimize the affair at all, but of the 1,001 things going on in our marriage, it seems like getting fixated on just the infidelity might be throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I was hurt by her decision to do that and I know that I could justified in calling it quits as a result, but is an affair truly an unpardonable sin? Is it truly the coup de grace for a marriage. I'm sure many people think that, but I would love nothing more than to work through this and have the results of a very healthy marriage. How much more celebratory might that be!? My biggest question is why is she choosing to not see her role in creating the life she is experiencing? Who else does she think is creating it? I'm not so naive as to think that I can "make her see it," but is there something more that I can do to invite her into that. I don't know!?


----------



## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

Frankly you are the you missing the point here about the affair and what it truly means....sex aside, this woman who you married chose to turn to another man and not only break your vows and disrespect you at the same time.....then turn around without any remorse and blame you...and you think that should go on the top of the heap.....yeah bury your head in the ground because you are clueless


----------



## TJW (Mar 20, 2012)

413southmain said:


> I'm not so naive as to think that I can "make her see it," but is there something more that I can do to invite her into that. I don't know!?


I do. No. It's her NATURE. A person's nature doesn't respond to logic. Your wife will never take responsibility for her own life. She not only disrespects her wedding vows, she disrespects you as her husband, her partner, her supporter, and her helper. She operates in EVERY area of your lives based upon her "entitlement".

She will try to divorce you with more disrespect than she had for her marriage.


----------



## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Notable points:

1) More than 17 years ago, she lived with a man, never married him, yet had a child with him. 
She did not view marriage as anything important.
Then they split up.

2) At some time in her past, she met her AP, (affair partner). He became her BBF, her forever boyfriend. 
One, that she never let go. 

She went back to him several years ago, and spent a weekend with him, and slept with him. 
She still did not view marriage as that important.

She slept with him again last year. Marriage and its vows are not important to her.

She used your admission of secretly taking out a loan to admit to a secret of her own. She let loose with that gem of the truth to burn you deeply.
She is revengeful.

AP is still in the picture. He always was.

Do you think that her AP caused the breakup in her last LTR, the common-law marriage that produced her son?



It is evident that she wants out of the marriage and has wanted to for a long time.

She has no shame and no empathy for anyone but herself.
She is entitled and talent-less.

Look up narcissist, and see if that description fits her. It sounds that way to me.

With both cheating episodes, she was hoping you would divorce her. 
You disappointed her and she lost respect for you. 

With the youngsters out of the house, except for your joint daughter, she sees this as the opportune time for her to bail.

I see this time as opportune for you, too. 
Before your business grows even more.

BAIL !


----------



## 413southmain (Dec 25, 2014)

StarFires said:


> You wouldn't likely be responsible for everything in your marriage that displeases her, but you can't blow off her complaints about you as being without merit only to criticize everything about her. That's what you did here and based on your description, it's also what you do to her. It's easy to get defensive and quite a human thing to do but rather than solve anything, it only causes arguments without addressing the problems or dealing with them constructively. And you're here complaining about the arguments. It's common for people to not know how to argue. One party says "You do such and such that displeases me" and rather than confronting and dealing with what they said, the other party starts criticizing and saying things like "Yeah well, you do this and that." Where else except in an argument can that possibly end up?
> 
> Rather than criticizing her, what you see as her faults, and her lack of taking responsibility for the condition of your marriage, why not address her specific complaints about you? And then make those adjustments and improvements. Until you do that, turning the tables on her won't work. And it's the only way you can "own up to and work toward improving the things" you have control over if you really mean it.
> 
> I can't speak about everything you said about your wife, but I can tell you that problems between stepmother and stepdaughter are very common, and the husband/father of these two usually finds himself as the monkey in the middle because it's difficult for him to fathom or accept that his daughter is anything but perfect. But it's the stepchild(ren) that usually cause the friction in that relationship, often because daddy never sees his kids' faults and doesn't appreciate his wife complaining about them. So, they never get addressed, and the wife always gets blamed. That's the way it usually goes even though there is a possibility your wife is to blame since you see her as unwilling to take responsibility for anything.


I hear you and I believe what you say. That is why I don't turn the tables on her. Admittedly, I did not know how to argue when we first got married and what you depicted is exactly how our arguments used to go. Now, I do focus on the complaints that she makes of me. Again, I'm under no delusion that I'm perfect; I also try to operate under the premise that I think she has my best interest at heart, but that door doesn't swing both ways with her. Whenever I present her with an "opportunity to improve" I get the venomous attack that I'm just critical of her. I'm left feeling like I believe she thinks that I'm just supposed to take whatever complaint she gives to me and never bring anything up with her. Incidentally, she also argues that I don't bring things up with her and when I remind her of the way that she responds I get another venomous attack. I also don't share these things (thoughts and feelings) with anyone, not even my best friend, because I'm concerned of how it may cause them to react to her. I bring these things to this group because I'm anonymous and it allows me to freely share my thoughts so I can get honest feedback. She has repeatedly voiced her disgust and ire about me to our children, but I do not do this in return. Again, I'm not perfect, but I am really trying to approach this maturely. I've already been through one divorce and I'd prefer to not go through another. I think there is so much that is great about her, but we cannot seem to get over this communication/understanding hurdle!?


----------



## 413southmain (Dec 25, 2014)

TJW said:


> Yep. entirety of the marital problems, entirety of the money, entirety of the work and responsibility. Her function in life is to do what trips her trigger, while you bust your ass.
> 
> My friend, BTDT. You are, unfortunately, a plan-B, beta, provider guy. And your wife has you by the short hairs because she knows the courts will force you to keep her supported.
> That's why the nonchalance about "confessing" her affair. She knows you can't stop paying her way, she doesn't have to keep a job. A person who doesn't have to work, doesn't.
> ...


I hear you and those are certainly my raw, unchecked feelings, but I want to be bigger than that. I don't mean to minimize what you did or your choice, only you know your dynamics and your desires, but keeping my wife in the dark and maintaining a private life doesn't feel like the outcome I'm after. There are days that I just want to say F-it! and start over again, but I always see the kernel of goodness that I want to build around. I know that sounds idealistic, maybe even naive, but without a hope for what the best could be, what else is there!?


----------



## 413southmain (Dec 25, 2014)

TJW said:


> I do. No. It's her NATURE. A person's nature doesn't respond to logic. Your wife will never take responsibility for her own life. She not only disrespects her wedding vows, she disrespects you as her husband, her partner, her supporter, and her helper. She operates in EVERY area of your lives based upon her "entitlement".
> 
> She will try to divorce you with more disrespect than she had for her marriage.


Thanks TJW, appreciate the candor. Sometimes I think that, but hope otherwise. (sigh)


----------



## TJW (Mar 20, 2012)

413southmain said:


> I think there is so much that is great about her


What ? What does she REALLY bring to the table for you and your family?


----------



## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

413southmain said:


> I was hurt by her decision to do that and I know that I could justified in calling it quits as a result, but is an affair truly an unpardonable sin? Is it truly the coup de grace for a marriage. I'm sure many people think that, but I would love nothing more than to work through this and have the results of a very healthy marriage.


If *FOR YOU* it's not an unpardonable sin and not the coup de grace for marriage, then don't let us here convince you otherwise. Most people here, including myself, believe in ending the marriage after an affair, but that does not have to be your view, and clearly it isn't. The worst part about boards like this one is the propensity of the advice that people receive is to end the marriage no matter what the complaints are, so there's always that to consider, especially when most who try so hard to destroy other people's marriages don't find fixes in their own marriages and don't leave their own marriages either.

The only thing is you seem so focused on finding a way to get her to see her own faults, but almost no one is ever willing to do that. And it definitely cannot be the person's spouse calling themselves trying to fix their husband or wife.

The best thing to do is enter into marriage counseling, but even that could wind up being the worst thing if the counselor is a terrible one, and there are many terrible ones out there, so you have to expect to see several different ones before finding a good fit. Don't let the sessions be all about pointing fingers. Let the therapist know you need him/her to steer the sessions toward finding resolutions and finding common ground. For example, if you sincerely consider her complaints about you and try to address those about yourself (without repeating them), then you need her to be equally as open to your complaints about her. All this other stuff that you complained about here can be put aside because most of it really is just criticizing her. Keep the focus specifically on your marriage dynamic, not how she deals with other people and all that stuff because you don't know anything about any of that, so blaming her for EVERYTHING cannot possibly help your marriage. Good luck to you.


----------



## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

@413southmain Your wife seems quite the little star of joy. She knows how everyone else should behave, but she doesn't know how she should behave.

I think a visit to a divorce lawyer would be a good place for you to start.


----------



## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

She’s either willing to work on the marriage or she isn’t. If she is, there‘s a chance. If she isn’t, there’s no chance.


----------



## OutofRetirement (Nov 27, 2017)

I think you should focus on changing yourself. You can't change someone else.

You talk about a horrific marriage experience. A 17-year marriage. She cheated twice and blames you for everything. She thinks she's always right, and is vocal about it. Tells your children about it, including about you.

Try to give us something to work with here. Re-write your initial post and list bullet points, broad strokes, of the issues you are wanting to be improved in your marriage.

You want to give short shrift on the infidelity, though her ability to have affairs, and you not, probably has underpinings in many other issues in your marriage. For one thing, she is willing to risk losing you. Yet she doesn't. Again, coming back to your "horrific" wording of the marriage from her point of view. And you seem OK with it, moreso than her. Have you considered marriage counseling, ever? Have you tried it? What result? And if not, why not?

To me, it appears she is angry and resentful and is acting out against her helplessness and powerlessness in her life. She is beholden to you for her lifestyle. She doesn't want to live in a hovel somewhere. She has made herself mentally a prisoner in her own life. Or maybe not, but she sure sounds angry as hell at the world.

For the short term, I suggest being 100% honest with her going forward. About everything. If she asks, does that dress make me look fat, don't lie. Get a book called "Lying" by Sam Harris. It's a short book, maybe 100 pages or so if I recall. Re-write your post with bullet points. Rank them in order of how bit a problem they are in the marriage, low, medium, high, and nuclear, then rank them in order of ease/difficulty of fixing/resolving. You are not going to be able to fix the marriage, you most likely will have to focus on a few issues, or one issue, at a time. I suggest choosing ones that can be fixed easily at first to build momentum. Ask your wife to make a list for you to fix, doing the same. Ask her to write down who is responsible, what percentage, and why, for each of them. Try to find some that you can agree on, or at least closer to agreement, and find common ground and work on those first. If your wife doesn't want to participate, then you can do what you can by yourself, or reevaluate what you want in your life with your wife.


----------



## 413southmain (Dec 25, 2014)

TJW said:


> What ? What does she REALLY bring to the table for you and your family?


She does take care of the kids and fights for them, for their education, for their protection and I know she seems genuinely well-intentioned. She’s a great interior designer and makes the home beautiful, but taking deeper thought on this, I don’t know that I can say that she has good intentions toward us and our marriage. :-/


----------



## 413southmain (Dec 25, 2014)

Openminded said:


> She’s either willing to work on the marriage or she isn’t. If she is, there‘s a chance. If she isn’t, there’s no chance.


Agreed.


----------



## 413southmain (Dec 25, 2014)

OutofRetirement said:


> To me, it appears she is angry and resentful and is acting out against her helplessness and powerlessness in her life. She is beholden to you for her lifestyle. She doesn't want to live in a hovel somewhere. She has made herself mentally a prisoner in her own life. Or maybe not, but she sure sounds angry as hell at the world.


Only she knows what’s really going on inside her head and with her thoughts, but it sure seems like she is mad as hell for being into the world as her. She has said how she despises and is ashamed of her mother and father and the way they raised her (broken home, blended family, both dads in/out of prison, drugs, alcohol, young teenage sex), she despises her appearance and her body (she is genuinely gorgeous!), bitter against the way her extended family neglected her, and so much more. Since I have known her she has visibly and vocally unhappy with her life. She talks about being a single parent was better than being married because she only had to worry about one decision maker. (She grew up as an only child, I grew up in a family of 8 with a very stable family unit) 

if I had to choose the top three things to work on, they would be:
1) Eliminate the double standards—hold herself to same standards she expects from everyone else or drop the expectations all together;
2) Learn to dialogue—give as much consideration for my contribution to the conversation as she gives to hers;
3) Be open minded—Her thinking is extremely back and white. She thinks in terms of either/or, but it really is a both/and works. She can be really dismissive when things are done or go the way she wants, when she wants, and how she wants—as if there is only one solution.


----------



## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

413southmain said:


> She does take care of the kids and fights for them, for their education, for their protection and I know she seems genuinely well-intentioned. She’s a great interior designer and makes the home beautiful, but taking deeper thought on this, I don’t know that I can say that she has good intentions toward us and our marriage. :-/


The path to hell is full of good intentions, and in this case she intents to sabotage this marriage and family with her cheating but that is not important let’s all avoid the elephant in the room.


----------



## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Brother, your wife is a serial cheater, she has had two affairs that you know about, she is kind of a horrible person.... 

WHAT IN THE **** ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT... It is time for you to file for divorce, this is not going to change. 

You have already wasted 17 years of your life, good god man, wake up...


----------



## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

413southmain said:


> Only she knows what’s really going on inside her head and with her thoughts, but it sure seems like she is mad as hell for being into the world as her. She has said how she despises and is ashamed of her mother and father and the way they raised her (broken home, blended family, both dads in/out of prison, drugs, alcohol, young teenage sex), she despises her appearance and her body (she is genuinely gorgeous!), bitter against the way her extended family neglected her, and so much more. Since I have known her she has visibly and vocally unhappy with her life. She talks about being a single parent was better than being married because she only had to worry about one decision maker. (She grew up as an only child, I grew up in a family of 8 with a very stable family unit)
> 
> if I had to choose the top three things to work on, they would be:
> 1) Eliminate the double standards—hold herself to same standards she expects from everyone else or drop the expectations all together;
> ...


She needs psychiatric help, not just a psych counsellor. Your Doctor will have recommendations.


----------



## skerzoid (Feb 7, 2017)

There is too much navel-gazing going on here. Are you really as emotionless as you seem here? You rug swept her first affair, and then she "Nonchalantly" mentions she had an affair. Did you nonchalantly say, "Oh, who with? Did you enjoy ****ing him?"


----------



## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

You say she is genuinely gorgeous; she is a real looker.
That says it all to me.

You have a foggy-glass sweet tooth and you ain't giving up that arm candy for 'nuttin'.

If you want to keep her, and adore her, that, Sir, is great.

It keeps her off the dating scene, and majorly prevents her from hurting other decent men.
You are doing the rest of the world a favor.

Keep up the good work!


----------



## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

413southmain said:


> Only she knows what’s really going on inside her head and with her thoughts, but it sure seems like she is mad as hell for being into the world as her. She has said how she despises and is ashamed of her mother and father and the way they raised her (broken home, blended family, both dads in/out of prison, drugs, alcohol, young teenage sex), she despises her appearance and her body (she is genuinely gorgeous!), bitter against the way her extended family neglected her, and so much more. Since I have known her she has visibly and vocally unhappy with her life. She talks about being a single parent was better than being married because she only had to worry about one decision maker. (She grew up as an only child, I grew up in a family of 8 with a very stable family unit)
> 
> if I had to choose the top three things to work on, they would be:
> 1) Eliminate the double standards—hold herself to same standards she expects from everyone else or drop the expectations all together;
> ...


Dear god what number is the affair....clueless


----------



## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

413southmain said:


> At which point, she very nonchalantly told me that I might as well know that she had had an affair with a former boyfriend about 3 months earlier.
> 
> Several years earlier, she had taken a trip to her hometown with our youngest daughter and I found out that she had spent the weekend with her former boyfriend and his young daughter. I love my wife and I really wanted to have a mature response to her sharing that she had an affair, and I know that there are so many factors that would push someone toward infidelity, so I tried to empathize with her and learn why she chose the path that she did.


SO, you rug-swept the first affair by "empathizing" with her?? Mature response? What you did is give her a free pass and rug-swept the first affair so she had ZERO consequences and figures YOU won't leave if she does it again....


413southmain said:


> what I would like to focus on is trying to build a healthy marriage with her. Focusing on the affair would seem to detract from that. I know that we will have to dig through that at some point, but there just seems to be too much other muck in the way right now.


and it looks like she is right. You NEED to confront the affair. Her entitled BS and "nonchalantly" telling you she slept with him AGAIN -- she is COMPLETELY disrespecting you and really doesn't care what you think, and knows you will not give consequences again. She also isn't trying, nor does she WANT, to have a better marriage. YOU can focus on building whatever you want, but you CANNOT do it by yourself, and SHE won't.
You need to give her a BIG wakeup call and show her that cheating has consequences. I'm sure you can figure out the best way to do that (it involves lawyers and serving her...)


----------



## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

@413southmain , you seem to be a decent man, a good provider, for your family. The bottom line is your wife does not respect you nor the marriage. Is this something you are prepared to live with.
You need to look at yourself first and see what is it that you want out of your life/ You have a good career it seems but what do you want out of your life after you retire? How old are you btw.
it seems your wife has been a good partner as far as making a home goes, but she doesn't really 'keep the family together' if she doesn't get along with your oldest daughter?
I think it is time for you to get IC for yourself to become a man with a vision for youself, a man with boundaries. You then need to speak to your wife and tell her 'wife, things have to change around here, or you gotta go.' How can you not be livid at her affair(s), at her disrespect, her griping about everything, her wasting money on so many 'projects; that she never finishes. Aren't you sick of all of this. Find your back bone for goodness sake and put your foot down now. You do not want to end up being with someone who takes you for granted into your twilight years.


----------



## 413southmain (Dec 25, 2014)

I think I have been deceiving myself by trying to be “mature” in my response. I have watched friends and family “react” to things in their marriages and have seen the fallout and deterioration that ensued. I wish desperately to avoid that and perhaps have convinced myself that logic and kindness will triumph. I think more than anything, my guilt of recognizing my own shortcomings (no one’s perfect) has probably caused me to view our marriage through rose-colored glasses. I appreciate the feedback, I know that more drastic changes and consequences need to occur; otherwise, our marriage will continue the way it has been.


----------



## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

413southmain said:


> I am VERY concerned about the affair, but I'm not convinced that is not the most critical thing. I know it is often sensationalized that way because of the shock and awe value, but for me, what I would like to focus on is trying to build a healthy marriage with her. Focusing on the affair would seem to detract from that.


I think you need to accept that fact that there is NO WAY to build a healthy marriage with someone who is unapologetic about betraying their marriage vows and the trust of their spouse. You have NO chance of building a happy marriage with her if you DON'T focus on the affair FIRST...


----------



## paboy (May 27, 2020)

Again, your missing the wood from the tree's. The 'Continual' infidelity is the cause of her actions. Do not believe for one second that they have only had sex twice, with a 7 yr gap. That would be uncomprehensionable. It has been ongoing. 
This is the cause of her abuse. She is in another relationship with another man, and has been for 7 yrs. Your just putting band aids on an amputated limb. She runs you over with a mac truck, and your worrying what gear the truck was in.
Step away from the scenario, the 180 is designed for that, designed to allow you emotional distance, then you will see things more clearly.


----------



## Tdbo (Sep 8, 2019)

413southmain said:


> My wife and I are due to celebrate our 17th anniversary tomorrow; however, as it has seem to become the norm now, we end up in an argument right before our celebration that causes the anniversary to tank.
> 
> After last night's argument I am now convinced that my wife believes that I am solely responsible for the entirety of her horrific marriage experience with me. She may say that she has some contribution to her experience, but she says that as if to acknowledge the law of averages, not genuine ownership of the part she plays in her own life experiences.
> 
> ...


Note the bold.
There is a mature response to your wife sharing that she had an affair.
It is called divorce.


----------



## AwfullyAngry (Jun 4, 2020)

I’m not in any way or shape a behavioral expert but I can’t help not to think that her nonchalantly admitting an affair was to deliberately hurt you as a revenge rather than being remorseful. It looked to me like her saying oh yeah you gotta a loan without telling me so get this dagger I slept with my former boyfriend again


----------



## [email protected] (Dec 23, 2017)

Get rid of her!


----------



## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Have you checked her phone usage? Have you investigated to verify what she had told you? You don’t really seem to have any idea what she’s been up to except for what she’s told you. You can afford it so get a PI to find out what has been going on. Hurting you seems to be her goal.


----------



## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Wife has nice lifestyle on your dime. Even brought a kid with her, who you willfully accepted as your own. She has no outlet other than to spend the money you make and be a parent to essentially 1 remaining minor child. 

She spits fire at you, for reasons we on the internet don't know. But at some point, she actually decided she doesn't like you anymore. That is clear to me. She might have dutiful things she does for you, I mean, you did have a kid together, but from your writing, it's obvious that if she could just have her lifestyle without you, she would. 

Sorry but decorating a home nicely is not a redeemable quality. Who cares. It's just another way/excuse to spend money.

She has probably booty called this x BF several times. She won't go back to him because you give her the lifestyle and maybe he doesn't want the hassle.

Is this the person you want to be with? Seriously?


----------



## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

> I hear you and I believe what you say. That is why I don't turn the tables on her. Admittedly, I did not know how to argue when we first got married and what you depicted is exactly how our arguments used to go. Now, I do focus on the complaints that she makes of me. Again, I'm under no delusion that I'm perfect; I also try to operate under the premise that I think she has my best interest at heart, but that door doesn't swing both ways with her. Whenever I present her with an "opportunity to improve" I get the venomous attack that I'm just critical of her. I'm left feeling like I believe she thinks that I'm just supposed to take whatever complaint she gives to me and never bring anything up with her. Incidentally, she also argues that I don't bring things up with her and when I remind her of the way that she responds I get another venomous attack. I also don't share these things (thoughts and feelings) with anyone, not even my best friend, because I'm concerned of how it may cause them to react to her. I bring these things to this group because I'm anonymous and it allows me to freely share my thoughts so I can get honest feedback. She has repeatedly voiced her disgust and ire about me to our children, but I do not do this in return. Again, I'm not perfect, but I am really trying to approach this maturely. I've already been through one divorce and I'd prefer to not go through another. I think there is so much that is great about her, but we cannot seem to get over this communication/understanding hurdle!?


What you have just described, the way she talks to you, manipulates you and degrades you is what is known as emotional and mental abuse. 

She's an abuser, and you are an abused spouse. The sad part is, you have put up with this for so long that you have come to accept it and treat it as normal. This is called Stockholm Syndrome.


----------



## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

I realize these things are tossed around like candy around here, but it sounds to me like she has a personality disorder. 

Take a look at these and tell us how familiar this sounds:

*Fear of abandonment.* Is she terrified of being abandoned or left alone? Even something as innocuous as a loved one arriving home late from work or going away for the weekend may trigger intense fear. This can prompt frantic efforts to keep other persons close. Beg, cling, start fights, track loved one’s movements, or even physically block the person from leaving. Unfortunately, this behavior tends to have the opposite effect—driving others away.
*Unstable relationships.* Does she tend to have relationships that are intense and short-lived? Fall in love quickly, believing that each new person is the one who will make her feel whole, only to be quickly disappointed. Relationships either seem perfect or horrible, without any middle ground. Lovers, friends, or family members may feel like they have emotional whiplash as a result of her rapid swings from idealization to devaluation, anger, and hate.
*Unclear or shifting self-image.* Is her sense of self unstable? Does she sometimes feel good about herself, but other times you hate herself, or even views herself as evil. Does she have a clear idea of who she is and what she wants in life? Result are that she may frequently change jobs, friends, lovers, religion, values, goals, or even sexual identity.
*Impulsive, self-destructive behaviors.* Does she engage in harmful, sensation-seeking behaviors, especially when upset. Does she impulsively spend money she can’t afford, binge eat, drive recklessly, shoplift, engage in risky sex, or overdo it with drugs or alcohol. These risky behaviors may help her feel better in the moment, but they hurt her and those around her over the long-term.
*Self-harm.* Does she exhibit suicidal behavior and deliberate self-harm? Suicidal behavior includes thinking about suicide, making suicidal gestures or threats, or actually carrying out a suicide attempt. Self-harm encompasses all other attempts to hurt herself without suicidal intent. Common forms of self-harm include cutting and burning.
*Extreme emotional swings.* Does she exhibit unstable emotions and moods? One moment, feeling happy, and the next, despondent. Little things that other people brush off can send her into an emotional tailspin. These mood swings are intense, but they tend to pass fairly quickly, usually lasting just a few minutes or hours.
*Chronic feelings of emptiness.* Does she often talk about feeling empty, as if there’s a hole or a void inside her? Or does she feel as if she's “nothing” or “nobody.” This feeling is uncomfortable, so she may try to fill the void with things like drugs, food, or sex. But nothing feels truly satisfying.
*Explosive anger.* Does she struggle with intense anger and a short temper? Does she have trouble controlling herself once the fuse is lit—yelling, throwing things, or becoming completely consumed by rage? It’s important to note that this anger isn’t always directed outwards. She may spend a lot of time feeling angry at herself.
*Feeling suspicious or out of touch with reality.* \Does she often struggle with paranoia or suspicious thoughts about others’ motives. When under stress, does she lose touch with reality—an experience known as dissociation? Does she feel foggy, spaced out, or as if she's outside her own body.


----------



## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Tron said:


> I realize these things are tossed around like candy around here, but it sounds to me like she has a personality disorder.
> 
> Take a look at these and tell us how familiar this sounds:
> 
> ...


Tron, great post, but what is he supposed to do with this. She will not seek help, and she is like a Super Ninja cheater. 

I mean, he cannot fix her and would be a fool to try...


----------



## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

If she doesn't have a PD, and she's willing to go to counseling then hang in there because you have someone you might be able to work with to create a better marriage.

If she has a PD and she is willing to do counseling then he might have something to work with, but he needs to prepare himself for the long haul. 

If she has a PD and is not willing to do counseling, then get out, or resign himself to the abuse because it won't likely ever change.


----------



## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

That said, sounds like she's a serial cheater, so cutting her loose now might be the quickest and best route out of this nightmare.


----------

