# Apologies...feels like a sticky situation



## Saki (Dec 7, 2011)

So,

My WS has had a PA and an EA, 6 years apart. We never addressed the PA, and the EA has me completely devastated.

But that's not what I want to talk about.

I feel I am owed one hell of an apology.

BUT

I had been a bad husband. Emotionally absent, non supportive, unwilling to give her what she wants. I read the No More Mr Nice Guy book and realized all the ways my behavior co-created what feels like the world's most unhealthy marriage.

As a result of my behavior, my WS has spent years being lonely, bored, afraid of abandonment, and the amount of self confidence my behavior has eroded from her life must be huge. 

I've come to realize that just as I've been through hell, I've also caused my WS a lot of pain during our relationship. 

I'm reforming the Mr Nice Guy bit, and she can cite specific examples of how my behavior has changed for the "better" (more healthy is probably more accurate). 

So I owe her one hell of an apology too.

Question I have is...who goes first?? :scratchhead:


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

You're the one in here asking for advice, so I'd say you. . Your other option is to build resentment. And you should do it not expecting an apogy in return. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Saki (Dec 7, 2011)

PBear said:


> . And you should do it not expecting an apogy in return.


That, to some degree, is my big sticking point with going first. The no strings attached part is of course one of the major disfunctions I've always had.

I feel like no matter what, some part of me is going to feel like "ok, so you did your part...now where is hers...?"

At the same time, I feel horribly about the way I've treated her (and I've said as much to her) and I want to help rebuild her trust in me and know that I will always be there for her. Certainly a sincere apology will help that process...and will help unburden my guilt as well.

(I should point out I've committed to R - I thought that might be obvious but maybe not)


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno (Jan 18, 2011)

I see no harm in apologizing first and giving her everything she wants in the way of attention. If she cheats again, just be wary of the next reason. You sound way too nice. Some women even when they are treated like dirt by their husbands, still do not cheat. They keep trying to get what they need, FROM their husband. You sound way too nice to have missed any kind of hints or direct requests from your wife in that way, but just in case, you have nothing to lose if you are committed to R. I will say that it is impossible for anyone to be a mind-reader and I hope your wife will realize, after you apologize of course, that getting your attention by cheating is extreme and unproductive and unlikely to get her the KIND of attention she would presumably want in a marraige. Hopefully she will learn to communicate better and more efficiently about her needs!


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## CH (May 18, 2010)

Don't apologize, let your actions speak for you.


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## Saki (Dec 7, 2011)

Homemaker_Numero_Uno said:


> You sound way too nice. ... You sound way too nice to have missed any kind of hints or direct requests from your wife in that way


No, you don't know me and you probably don't know about the Mr Nice Guy Syndrome.

She didn't hint at what she needed, she told me straight to my face and I refused to listen. In fact, I then proceeded to do the opposite, again and again, over 12 years of a relationship.

That is what I would call being a complete a$$hole. And it's exactly what I did.

I'm not justifying her cheating, so don't get that idea either.

Letting actions speak is a good point. I'm living the apology and will continue to do so for the rest of my life. Maybe I verbalizing it isn't so important.

I'm reading the book "How Can I Forgive You" which talks a lot about emotionally effective apologies and I feel like that is what she needs to help move on from the pain I caused her. 

She needs it and I'm willing to give it...but can I do it with no strings attached...if I go first...? If she went first...there would be no strings attached...

I might be overthinking this. It feels right to do it...so I should do it.

Still would be interested in other perspectives.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

She has cheated on you 2 times that you know of. She is a serial cheater that has you now blaming yourself for her cheating. If you ever apologize, she will take that as validation that she was right to cheat and will cheat on you again. Oh, wait. You handled things so well the first time she cheated, that she did cheat on you again. I bet you said you were sorry back then too. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.


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## Tap1214 (Aug 14, 2011)

You didn't force her to cheat, she made that choice on her own!


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Love means never having to say you're sorry ... ooops no that is wrong.

If you have been a nice guy and expected to be treated better then fine. You understand you need to man up. But so what? She is a serial cheater. That trumps nice guy big time. 

How about, sorry dear I have not been the best husband I could have been. You chose to be a serial cheater. So I am filing for divorce to give us both the best chance at happiness. I'm sorry.


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## Saki (Dec 7, 2011)

Saki said:


> I'm not justifying her cheating, so don't get that idea either.


Hey guys, get off it.

Don't try to tell me about filing for divorce or justifying her cheating. I didn't post a thread about that.

Limbo is where I am not. I am trying for R. If you can't deal with that fact, don't post in my thread.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

Saki said:


> So,
> 
> My *WS has had a PA* and an EA, 6 years apart. *We never addressed the PA*, and the EA has me completely devastated.


So you have basically swept this PA under the rug.










Know what happens when you sweep things under the rug? It builds resentment. And that resentment manifested in your actions, like being emotionally absent, non supportive, etc. Because you were tripping over the huge lump in the rug.

You are only responsible for 50% of the state of the marriage prior to the affair. The affair was 100% her choice. Instead of choosing to work it out, communicate it with you, go to marriage counseling, or doing the honorable thing and divorce you, she chose to cheat. Get this through your head: There is ABSOLUTELY NO EXCUSE THAT JUSTIFIES CHEATING. I don't care if you were the biggest ******* in the world, if you were that much of a monster, she should have just left you. And she did it TWICE, which makes her a serial cheater. 

And you ask who owes whom an apology? Hell, you haven't even dealt with the PA yet.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Are you guys reconciling or divorcing?


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

I think you need much more than an apology


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Saki said:


> Hey guys, get off it.
> 
> Don't try to tell me about filing for divorce or justifying her cheating. I didn't post a thread about that.
> 
> Limbo is where I am not. I am trying for R. If you can't deal with that fact, don't post in my thread.


You created a thread and asked for advice. It is not the specific advice you wanted. You rug sweep her affairs and want to apologize to her. Then go for it.


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## FrankKissel (Nov 14, 2011)

Entropy3000 said:


> You created a thread and asked for advice. It is not the specific advice you wanted. You rug sweep her affairs and want to apologize to her. Then go for it.


He's not rug sweeping anything and not once has he suggested that he is to blame for his wife's cheating. Rather, he's (bravely, IMO) taking responsibility for his part creating a marital atmosphere vulnerable to cheating. His willingness to recognize the faults of himself as well as his wife is the exact opposite of rug sweeping.

It seems a lot of posters around here want to believe infidelity occurs in some sort of vacuum, or can occur in otherwise flourishing marriages. That way the betrayed can absolve him/herself of any bad behavior. I suppose in a rare instance it may be true that an ideal spouse is cheated upon, but far more often than not infidelity is a symptom of a failing relationship, not it's cause.
Saki isn't taking the blame for the infidelity in his marriage, but he is recognizing that he shares responsibility for the failings that made infidelity possible.

It's a very mature outlook, and one I think gives his marriage a better shot at reconciliation than those in which one partner (or neither) is willing to own up to their failings.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

I'll answer your question directly. If you feel you owe her an apology then apologize. Your apology to her has nothing to do with hers to you - the two are not related. An apology is a way of atoning for wronging someone, not a way of keeping score. I agree she owes you a huge one, but yours to her is not contingent upon hers to you, at least if yours is genuine. If you owe it to her, give it to her.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

FrankKissel said:


> He's not rug sweeping anything and not once has he suggested that he is to blame for his wife's cheating. Rather, he's (bravely, IMO) taking responsibility for his part creating a marital atmosphere vulnerable to cheating. His willingness to recognize the faults of himself as well as his wife is the exact opposite of rug sweeping.
> 
> It seems a lot of posters around here want to believe infidelity occurs in some sort of vacuum, or can occur in otherwise flourishing marriages. That way the betrayed can absolve him/herself of any bad behavior. I suppose in a rare instance it may be true that an ideal spouse is cheated upon, but far more often than not infidelity is a symptom of a failing relationship, not it's cause.
> Saki isn't taking the blame for the infidelity in his marriage, but he is recognizing that he shares responsibility for the failings that made infidelity possible.
> ...


We were talking about him apologizing to his cheating wife. I suggested he apologize to her for his part in the failure of their marriage and then move on with his life without her.

In no way is he responsible for her infidelity.


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## snap (Oct 3, 2011)

FrankKissel said:


> It's a very mature outlook, and one I think gives his marriage a better shot at reconciliation than those in which one partner (or neither) is willing to own up to their failings.


Reconciliation is more nuanced process than this, it has nothing to do with maturity.

Circumstances can be different for every couple, but there are real dangers that BS can guilt-trip themselves with apologies, or that WS will use it to rationalize the affair.

Not saying it has no place, but one has to be cautious.


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## aeg512 (Mar 22, 2011)

Saki has came here for assistance with R. He has pointed out his own faults in creating huge problems with his M and with what I read he did so. I agree with the few that see no issue with him apologizing first, that is not rug sweeping. They both need to admit their own faults in order to go forward, if not, that is rugsweeping in my book. Both need to be in the M full time. If an apologizing does not come from her soon (within a day or two) I think he should sit her down and ask her why to her face. It may mean she is not fully in the M.


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## NotLikeYou (Aug 30, 2011)

Saki said:


> Hey guys, get off it.
> 
> Don't try to tell me about filing for divorce or justifying her cheating. I didn't post a thread about that.
> 
> Limbo is where I am not. I am trying for R. If you can't deal with that fact, don't post in my thread.


Saki, when you apologize, often you are really apologizing to yourself. You have no guarantee that the person you are apologizing to will accept your apology, or even want it.

You think that both of you deserve apologies from each other, and it sounds like you are correct.

But.

If you are wondering who should go first, your ego may be involved in the process.

If you have identified ways that your behavior hurt your spouse, there is no down side to apologizing for your actions. The down side shows up when you have an expectation that your spouse will do some introspection, realize how they have caused you pain, and apologize for that, except that they don't end up doing it.

If you believe apologizing will help you and your wife R, then by all means, apologize!

Here's hoping things work out well for you!


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

In this particular kind of scenario, apology can be a very fine line to walk. While both partners bear shared responsibility for the state of the relationship, only the cheater bears responsibility for their infidelity. In many such cases, however, the WS can and will take the LS's accepting responsibility for contributing to that state as the LS also taking responsibility for the WS's decision to cheat. As a result, any such apology on the LS's part must make it clear that they are not apologizing for "causing" or "forcing" their partner's infidelity, but only for their own shortcomings that contributed to the decline of the relationship. And that can be tough to do without the apology sounding hollow, at best.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Grayson said:


> In this particular kind of scenario, apology can be a very fine line to walk. While both partners bear shared responsibility for the state of the relationship, only the cheater bears responsibility for their infidelity. In many such cases, however, the WS can and will take the LS's accepting responsibility for contributing to that state as the LS also taking responsibility for the WS's decision to cheat. As a result, any such apology on the LS's part must make it clear that they are not apologizing for "causing" or "forcing" their partner's infidelity, but only for their own shortcomings that contributed to the decline of the relationship. And that can be tough to do without the apology sounding hollow, at best.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## Saki (Dec 7, 2011)

NotLikeYou said:


> If you are wondering who should go first, your ego may be involved in the process.
> 
> The down side shows up when you have an expectation that your spouse will do some introspection, realize how they have caused you pain, and apologize for that, except that they don't end up doing it.


Yes this is exactly what I am afraid of.

I've spent my whole life giving with unspoken expectations of receiving, and giving only that which I wanted in return and not what the other person truely wanted. 

I never want to be in a position where I blurt out "my apology was so much better then yours..." but I'm almost certain that is the thought that is going to roll around in my head.

I read "How Can I forgive you" by Janis Spring (or whatever her name is) and definitely found myself thinking that not only do I expect the type of apology she describes (regarding "earning geniune forgiveness") but I owe my WS one like that too.

Going through R properly is like an art. It's full of judgement calls on the timing of everything, when to say this, when to ask for that, is she ready to face reality yet, etc. It's especially complicated having kids and knowing that pushing too hard on this will cause my WS to withdrawl into a shell.

I don't really know how to gracefully end this post. I've deleted about 12 paragraphs of additional thoughts. 

In the end, simply put I am committed to R and that means trying to both make myself happy and healthy and meet the needs of my WS. 

I am finding it hard to balance these priorities when it comes to this issue. I feel I will be better able to meet the needs of my wife with this apology, but I also fear it could be an unhealthy source of resentment within myself - therefore at this time I feel I cannot give it.

I am still unsure of how to procede. In retrospect, I did not come here for the "answer" but I did come here for some perspective as well as some empathy, both of which I am getting. I appriciate the posts of everyone here and certainly don't mind hearing more on this subject.


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## snap (Oct 3, 2011)

You may feel you owe it, but it might be not the right moment yet. Give it some time.

(This coming from someone who endlessly apologized much of his martial history)


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