# Open Marriages



## frustr8dhubby (Dec 23, 2010)

I am sure I am going to get lambasted by the majority of you for this thread but I am really curious at this point. I know there are a few of you that swing or have swung but have any really tried an open marriage?

I have pretty much come to the conclusion that my wife just has no desire for sex, period. I am still concerned that it is only me she doesn't want but she swears up and down that she is happy/content and doesn't want anyone else either.

So.. This morning I brought up the subject of an open marriage. As expected, she considered it a way for me to just be able to have affairs. And there is probably some slight truth to that, if I have to be honest. But, I told her I wanted her to be able to also. Maybe it would be a way to see if she really has zero desire for sex in general or if it truly is just no desire for me.

Sometimes, I honestly wonder if it wouldn't benefit our relationship. I know how insane that sounds, trust me. But I could potentially get the desire from someone that I need and she wouldn't have to stress about our sex life. Yes, I would rather it come from the woman that I love but I am really starting to question if she is capable of desire/lust/fantasy/whatever you want to call it.

Please try to understand my dilemma. I know by the very nature of asking this question that it seems that I don't value or love my wife. I do, greatly. I will say here, as I have told her: Her lack of desire for me scares me. If at some point some woman actually shows that desire for me it is getting harder and harder to resist.

Uggghhh, I suppose this really is just ridiculous...


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## CallaLily (Jan 13, 2011)

I have read your posts before on your issue and I'm truly sorry you're going through this.

I would say though, if she has told you she didn't want anyone else and you have recommened the "open marriage" I think thats not a open marriage is it? Isn't that when both parties agree to it? 

Other than her seeing it as another way for you to have an affair, what else did she say? Was it discussed any further?


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## ClipClop (Apr 28, 2011)

And what would stop you from falling in love with, and wanting to marry one of your playmates? Compartmentalizing love and sex doesn't work for everyone. Then you'd leave the wife you say you value. Seems like an awful risk for her to take.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## seeking sanity (Oct 20, 2009)

The open marriage idea in a sexless marriage is usually one of the last stages of denial. The problem isn't that you crave sex with a variety of women, the problem is you crave sex with your wife but she won't participate, so you're looking for alternative solutions. 

The better solution is to leave the marriage. One of two things will happen: She'll realize that she's been taking you for granted and step up, or you'll free yourself to date and eventually find a new relationship that better meets your needs.

Really, the open marriage idea is conceptual only, and practically pretty unrealistic for a lot of reasons. If you are a typical long-time married guy, your game is rusty. The kinds of women that would be open to this are probably terribly damaged (women by nature are security seeking). Women are the cost of entry into swinging as there's no shortage of single guys looking for easy sex so it's not as easy as "im going to be a swinger." The most viable candidates for this kind of thing are other unhappily married women, which leads to affairs and a world of mess. (Plus you're already married to an unhappily married woman.)

Sorry. Best to get to the real problem and deal with it.


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## frustr8dhubby (Dec 23, 2010)

CalliLily,

It was a weird discussion, though short unfortunately because we had to get the kids on the bus. At one point she did mutter something like "Just don't bring home any diseases and I don't want to know about it". WTF? The whole point was if we went that route, I wouldn't want it in the dark. Not that I want her to feel bad but I don't want to be dishonest. If that were the case, I could already be having affairs.

ClipClop,

Completely valid point and it would definetely be a concern. Though I do enjoy my wife. I know I couldn't find a better wife or mother and I actually enjoy her company. We have great fun together, she just doesn't care for sex.


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## trey69 (Dec 29, 2010)

So many people think that having a open marriage will help things. IMO it probably will only make them worse. I completely understand you're frustrated. However leaving the marriage might be a better option right now, than going outside of the marriage. 

If that isn't an option either than it might be time to accept your situation the way it is. I don't think you should have to accept anything, but sometimes when other options have been weighed and they are not options for various reasons then you will need to do something to put things to rest for awhile. For peace and your sanity.


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## Mrs.G (Nov 20, 2010)

*Aching Heart..*




trey69 said:


> So many people think that having a open marriage will help things. IMO it probably will only make them worse. I completely understand you're frustrated. However leaving the marriage might be a better option right now, than going outside of the marriage.
> 
> If that isn't an option either than it might be time to accept your situation the way it is. I don't think you should have to accept anything, but sometimes when other options have been weighed and they are not options for various reasons then you will need to do something to put things to rest for awhile. For peace and your sanity.


:iagree: There is no having your cake and eating it too. In your case, the cake would be poisoned with guaranteed jealousy from your wife and your own resentment.

If you have tried to work with your wife on the sex problem and she remains indifferent, you need to leave her and find someone who prioritizes sex. No matter what you say, you know in your heart if you have truly given it a shot. 

My heart aches for you, lovey.


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## frustr8dhubby (Dec 23, 2010)

Thanks folks, I know. I am pretty much reserved to staying with her I was just hoping to have some answer that we could both live with happily.

All in all I am happy and should just accept that I am happy. I just REALLY hate these up and down times where I get really frustrated/angry over something that I really don't think she can control. She can have sex more, which she is trying to do, but I don't think you can just create desire/attraction...


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## rider03 (Apr 7, 2009)

I agree with seeking_sanity. I've been where you are and I tried to "work it out" some other way but failed miserably. Don't do what I did and waste years thinking it'll fix itself. Get out of this relationship and enjoy life. No marriage can survive without intimacy.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

frustr8dhubby said:


> I am sure I am going to get lambasted by the majority of you for this thread but I am really curious at this point. I know there are a few of you that swing or have swung but have any really tried an open marriage?
> 
> I have pretty much come to the conclusion that my wife just has no desire for sex, period. I am still concerned that it is only me she doesn't want but she swears up and down that she is happy/content and doesn't want anyone else either.
> 
> So.. This morning I brought up the subject of an open marriage. As expected, she considered it a way for me to just be able to have affairs. And there is probably some slight truth to that, if I have to be honest. But, I told her I wanted her to be able to also. Maybe it would be a way to see if she really has zero desire for sex in general or if it truly is just no desire for me.


I don't understand the words you are using. If you google open marriage and look at the commonly understood meaning, it means that it is agreed. The generally used meaning of the word affair is illicit or deceitful.

So how can agreement be a way to have deceit?




> Sometimes, I honestly wonder if it wouldn't benefit our relationship. I know how insane that sounds, trust me. But I could potentially get the desire from someone that I need and she wouldn't have to stress about our sex life. Yes, I would rather it come from the woman that I love but I am really starting to question if she is capable of desire/lust/fantasy/whatever you want to call it.
> 
> Please try to understand my dilemma. I know by the very nature of asking this question that it seems that I don't value or love my wife. I do, greatly. I will say here, as I have told her: Her lack of desire for me scares me. If at some point some woman actually shows that desire for me it is getting harder and harder to resist.
> 
> Uggghhh, I suppose this really is just ridiculous...


Why? Why would it be ridiculous for you to actually expect for your sexual needs to be met? So your wife does not want do it nor does she want you to get it elsewhere...


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

My experience... Sex, unless it's just a ONS, rarely comes without strings. Emotions and feelings happen, no matter what the agreement is up front. This will cause nothing but grief in the future. And a string of ONS's brings all their own problems.

The other thing is that in my opinion, both spouses have to be very mindful of their spouse's feelings and desires. If not, it's not a loving relationship. And if it's not a loving relationship, what kind of marriage is it? Friends? Room-mates? Live in nanny? Whatever it is, it's not husband and wife by my definition.

Having said that, I've never been in an open marriage. 

C


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## frustr8dhubby (Dec 23, 2010)

PBear,

I have actually had that conversation with her. It isn't that cut and dried though. She is affectionate with me, though not as much as I prefer. We do have sex and when we finally get there she seems to be enjoying it.

She is VERY cognizant of how I feel. But I ask again how do you make yourself desire something? I freakin' hate spinach. I might be able to choke it down but I will never actually desire it...


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## frustr8dhubby (Dec 23, 2010)

Mom6547,

You are right I should be careful with my semantics. I think from her perspective, she has no desire to go elsewhere for sex either so I would be the only one "using" the arrangement so to speak.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

frustr8dhubby said:


> PBear,
> 
> I have actually had that conversation with her. It isn't that cut and dried though. She is affectionate with me, though not as much as I prefer. We do have sex and when we finally get there she seems to be enjoying it.
> 
> She is VERY cognizant of how I feel. But I ask again how do you make yourself desire something? I freakin' hate spinach. I might be able to choke it down but I will never actually desire it...


I am a really LD spouse - just means I don't think about it much at all, but I do like sex once we get going. How do you make yourself desire something? The way I do it is based upon a conscious decision I have made to continue this aspect of our relationship at a reasonable frequency/enthusiasm level due to the amount of respect and love that I have for my H and the desire I have to keep our marriage strong.

Hearing my H ask for an open marriage would likely send my respect for him down the drain.


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## frustr8dhubby (Dec 23, 2010)

Enchantment,

I didn't say that I asked for one, I said that I put the idea out there. It wasn't a yes or no question, it was more of a "What do you think of..."

If you don't mind me asking, how do you show enthusiasm, being the LD spouse? Lingerie, dirty talk, flirting, what?


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## ClipClop (Apr 28, 2011)

Just raising it was more than enough to send most people into a tailspin.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

frustr8dhubby said:


> PBear,
> 
> I have actually had that conversation with her. It isn't that cut and dried though. She is affectionate with me, though not as much as I prefer. We do have sex and when we finally get there she seems to be enjoying it.
> 
> She is VERY cognizant of how I feel. But I ask again how do you make yourself desire something? I freakin' hate spinach. I might be able to choke it down but I will never actually desire it...


Your spouse sounds very similar to mine, with the exception that after 17 years, we had grown far apart, and there other significant issues in place as well. In the end, I went outside my marriage to fill a need, with the foolish thought that if I could fill that need, I could hold things together long enough for the kids to be "old enough" to not be affected. 

I ended up ending the marriage shortly after cheating, even though I wasn't caught and I wasn't in any sort of relationship when I left. The sex itself wasn't what I was craving, I was looking for an intimate relationship and all that it entails. And you only get that with feelings. I'm not a 20 year old horn-dog anymore... Pure sex just wasn't enough. There's so much more to a "sex life" than that.

BTW, cheating was a really dumb decision, which I take full responsibility for. My wife's impact on our sex life was a factor, but I'm the one that made that decision. All I can say is to end the marriage before you go down that path, not that I think that's where you're headed or anything. Just saying.

C


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

frustr8dhubby said:


> Enchantment,
> 
> I didn't say that I asked for one, I said that I put the idea out there. It wasn't a yes or no question, it was more of a "What do you think of..."
> 
> If you don't mind me asking, how do you show enthusiasm, being the LD spouse? Lingerie, dirty talk, flirting, what?


I kind of have myself in a state of "neutral" or "receptive" most of the time. I do initiate more over this last year or so - I'm not very subtle about that since I have zippo flirting genes. I'll just come out and verbally say something or touch his - you know. It's not hard for me to show enthusiam during - because I like the actual act. It's harder to show the enthusiasm prior to that - during the initiation phase, so my H helps me out a lot there. He tries to do things that basically make me feel like I am the only one for him (verbal and actions) - hard not to respond to that.

I can't help but feel that there may be more to your story than just having a wife that doesn't like to have sex. See, even if you don't want to have sex, if you really care about the other person and the relationship, it is reason enough (for me personally anyway) to want to do it - at least try to do it! It may not always be perfect, and you may have to work things out together, but all of that works towards having a more intimate marriage, imho. However, if I put myself in your wife's position and if my H brought up this topic it would give me a great deal of pause - would make me feel kind of like I didn't want to work with him on it. I am presuming you and your wife have had many discussions in this past about this - that likely doesn't help your wife feel receptive to being well, more receptive.


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## maribella (May 31, 2011)

have you tried bringing "toys" into the bedroom? or spontaneously going down on her? i really cant imagine a woman turning down head or a vibrator.. really convince her that all you want to do is please her and hopefully in time she will reciprocate.
i just really dont recommend an open marriage bc my parents and one of my best friends were swingers and they soon after called it quits. 
you &ur wife seem to be doing well in other areas.. mayb its nothing more than a dry spell


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## ClipClop (Apr 28, 2011)

I turn down both from time to time. I want real. And I don't always want him to go down on me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustr8dhubby (Dec 23, 2010)

I have suggested toys, she isn't interested. I LOVE going down on her, she isn't interested. And seven years+ is more than a "dry spell". As I said earlier, she has made much effort in the frequency. But her idea of initiation is:

"Honey are you going to take a shower?". Or "Well I guess it is your week for a bj huh"? (You know, THE week). Wow, does that make me feel like she wants me... Cripes, just a change in wording would go a looong ways. How about "take me now" or hell just rip my pants off or something, no words even needed..


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## ClipClop (Apr 28, 2011)

And when you've told her how her initiation bothers you?

You don't really want an open marriage and w partner just there for the sex. In a way, you have that now. You aren't sexless. So an open marriage would be the death knell of your marriage.

Have you suggested divorce to her?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustr8dhubby (Dec 23, 2010)

She doesn't see it/understand it.

I have discussed moving out for a bit, but never seriously discussed divorce no because that isn't really what I want.

Sorry but I am not sure I understand your statement about wanting an open marriage/partner there for sex. And I haven't said I was in a sexless marriage (though we were in a classically sexless marriage until recently).


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## ClipClop (Apr 28, 2011)

What I mean is, you really don't just want sex. You don't just want lust. You want something more fulfilling. ONSs aren't your style.

I think if you want her to get it, you would do well to put D on the table. All you are doing by considering an open marriage is dragging out that natural conclusion.

Until you are willing to put it all on the line and she believes you, you will remain stuck.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustr8dhubby (Dec 23, 2010)

Ah, OK, thanks. I understand what you are saying but it just seems too much like coercion to me.

Essentially I would be saying: If you don't change something that you may be incapable of changing, I'm outta here. Suppose she was physically incapable of sex (say paralyzation), would that still hold?

Now, logically I realize that may be the ultimate outcome anyway if it doesn't change somehow, but logic rarely comes into play in love now does it?


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## ClipClop (Apr 28, 2011)

No, physical illness isn't the same.

Call it coercion or call it a requirement. It doesn't matter. If you would consider breaking your vows for an open marriage, how far off is it to simply call it quits? It is going to happen anyway unless you totally subordinate. Your interests.

Sometimes people need a good reason to change. Faced with firing because the boss said you are a blacker and we let this go for too long and if you don't start performing you ate out, you still have a choice. Is that coercion or the opportunity to become a better contributer to the team? Depends on your POV, but if you want to maintain your posn, you step up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## whammy (Apr 22, 2011)

id hate to be the realist here ( i havent read most the replys so I dont know if anyone else has been "real" yet) but dont believe that crap that she isnt interested in sex. All women think about sex all the time... and the all the husbands that think their wife doesnt like sex.. well yes its true... those wives just dont want their husbands.

I promise that if you have this open marriage, your wife... that you dont think likes sex... will be on her back with her ankles behind her head for some 25 year old guy she met at bar in 2 seconds flat... good ahead let her sleep with other guys and she how "disinterested" in sex she is


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## CallaLily (Jan 13, 2011)

whammy said:


> id hate to be the realist here ( i havent read most the replys so I dont know if anyone else has been "real" yet) but dont believe that crap that she isnt interested in sex. All women think about sex all the time... and the all the husbands that think their wife doesnt like sex.. well yes its true... those wives just dont want their husbands.
> 
> I promise that if you have this open marriage, your wife... that you dont think likes sex... will be on her back with her ankles behind her head for some 25 year old guy she met at bar in 2 seconds flat... good ahead let her sleep with other guys and she how "disinterested" in sex she is


I doubt you speak for ALL women.


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## ClipClop (Apr 28, 2011)

Seriously. Where do ppl come up with these sweeping generalizations?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Roooth (May 13, 2011)

If she wants to help you fix the marriage, I would think MC is the only option. Something this troublesome can't be helped with a little advice...


...that said, I do believe my sister and her husband had an open relationship because their sex life was lacking somehow, rather than working on it. She had all kinds of logic why this was a great idea, but I knew something was wrong when she mentioned thier messing around with a girl as a "temporary fix" until she became a live in girlfriend. My sister fell in love with the girl, blamed lots on hubby. He wasn't perfect, but he was a loyal family man. It was a mess, ended in a painful divorce and my sister is still struggling with depression years later and has no clue how to put her life back together. This is just one instance but in this situation both hubby and wife were very happy to invite the "fix" into the marriage and it destroyed it. There is something deeper going on and if you go outside the marriage to supplement what you feel you're missing, I can't see anything but a demolition of what you love.

I, too, am suffering from a huge amount of sexual frustration. This morning I was dreaming over and over again of sex and asked my hubby to delay going into work. It was awful. He left, of course. But it's this or dating and like you, everything else in our relationship is really good, plus we have a lot of Affection for intimacy. I've had the thought, can't I supplement without hurting him or us? It sounds neat and sensible on paper, but I would never risk it.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

Roooth said:


> If she wants to help you fix the marriage, I would think MC is the only option. Something this troublesome can't be helped with a little advice...


:iagree:
If you are saying that you are not willing to risk it all, then you need to work on it, and you may need a more objective third-party to help you. If you are not in MC, then I would suggest that - perhaps even seeing a sex therapist. You and your wife have a disconnect in this area.


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## grizabella (May 8, 2011)

Don't mean to make any generalizations but if your wife is that sexually disfunctional she may have some deep emotional problems. It may be something to do with you and than again it may not. I think denying sex for any length of time is a control issue and needs to be examined, preferably professionally.


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## frustr8dhubby (Dec 23, 2010)

I have mentioned MC several times in the last few years. She won't go.

Is she really that dysfunctional? She seems to be on par with about every other woman in our neighborhood/circle of friends.

In fact before coming to TAM, I have only ever met 1 married woman in real life that actually wants sex.


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## Roooth (May 13, 2011)

"I have only ever met 1 married woman in real life that actually wants sex."

Wow, really? I've met several in my personal life. A friend of mine has a higher drive than her husband although it seems they're okay. I know others. I hear some women don't and I have no clue the frequency, but it's not all women. I guess no matter who you are this is a possibility when you get married, although guys probably face no sex more often, I'd guess.

To me it is a big red flag that she won't go to MC. I don't know how bad things have gotten for you and whether you're near the breaking point or whether you'll deal with the status quo forever. That's your call, but if she won't go to MC and won't work with you, that's the choice that's left: status quo or split.

That sucks. Sorry.


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## TheFamilyMan (May 4, 2011)

ClipClop said:


> And what would stop you from falling in love with, and wanting to marry one of your playmates? Compartmentalizing love and sex doesn't work for everyone. Then you'd leave the wife you say you value. Seems like an awful risk for her to take.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


agreed! and "open marriages" from what I have seen seem to be very shallow and not long-lasting...


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## Scannerguard (Jan 26, 2010)

So, I am just curious.

Let's say she agrees to this open marriage and she and I hook up. I am a divorced, busy, unattached male and your wife has sex with me.

Of course, it's amazing and I blow her socks off, make her toes curl and the walls vibrate at the Blinking Neon Light Motel, where we frequent.

You ask her how it is with her lover and she says it's amazing - Scannerguard is a real stud and it's awesome I just get to have sex with him 1x/week to blow off steam. We aren't in love or anything but it's just sex.

How do you feel about that?


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## Scannerguard (Jan 26, 2010)

BTW, I was just giving you that scenario to put a little reality into it. In fact, let's just say she goes out and finds a boyfriend before you find a girlfriend.

Now, your home alone, sexless and she's out having sex.

Not too pretty of a thought huh? Oh, you just thought it would all work out evenly? The first Friday night she was out, you woudl have a hot date and vice versa?

All of this being said. . .how often is your sex life? It doesnt' sound like an unconsummated marriage per se. . .but dangling.

If you were to withdraw initiation, there would be no sex.

If there is no sex, then the marriage becomes unconsummated.

Consummation makes the marriage valid in the eyes of the law and most major religions.

Taking my proof out to the final conclusion. . .it is YOU that is essentially keeping this marriage valid by the lopsided initiation of sex.

I am not sure if this can be "explained" to her as most people don't like having that "explained" to them as it's a lot to digest.

Let me say this. . .divorce won't necessarily solve your lack of sex problem. I say this confidently speaking as a divorcee. Yes, I do have a sex life now. . .but it's infrequent honestly. I am just too busy with working 2 jobs and co-parenting 3 boys. But infrequently was an upgrade from Never, which is what my marriage was before. And the sex is good actually, which is good. I have a great partner, but she's also busy with divorcing and kids.

I don't know. . . what I am trying to say is I think you are in "Fantasy Mode" with "Open Marriage" and "Divorce" right now. . .and you coudl tell your wife that those Fantasies you are harboring right now are one of the 4 Horseman of the Divorce Apocalypse that have entered your marriage.

The first trumpet has sounded. A few more Horseman will now enter your marriage.

Second Horseman of the Divorce Apocolypse: You'll start sleeping in different beds.

Third Horseman of the Divorce Apocolypse: You'll stop talking/communicating, assuming the other's positions and feelings on matters.

Fourth Horseman of the Divorce Apocolypse: Emotional and/or Physical Affair.

I use "Apocolypse" for good reason - a divorce is a total emotional, physical, financial, social, and spiritual apocolypse. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.

Good luck.


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## frustr8dhubby (Dec 23, 2010)

Scannergaurd,

I honestly don't know how I would feel and likely she would be able to get it faster than I could. I guess part of me would at least be relieved to know that she isn't asexual and that it is just something with me.

BTW, I am not sure if I have ever mentioned this but this is my second marriage. First wife essentially cheated on me. I was devastated so believe me I do know the pain of divorce.

As to frequency. We are up to about twice a week now if the kids aren't home and I am not at work and the stars are in perfect alignment!  Honestly, the frequency isn't necessarily the issue, it is the willingness/attitude.

I am completely cognizant of the fact that I am in "fantasy mode". It is totally on me in some respects. She continuously claims that she is content and happy. I should be too but I have this hang up on sex that I don't know how to deal with. As I have mentioned before, I think much of it has to do with my self-esteem issues (which, to your point, her having amazing sex with someone else would probably only make worse).

I have actually tried the sleeping in a different bed thing a few times lately. She begs me to come back. But the issue there is that she wants me to cuddle her but then I get hard and/or want to just caress her and then she gets upset because she is trying to go to sleep....


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## Jamison (Feb 10, 2011)

To tell you the truth, it sounds like you have a pretty decent marriage. And while I understand your frustration from time to time, I think you are a very lucky guy to have what you have with your wife, because alot of people here do not have near that. Sometimes its best to let the positive of what we have overtake that of what we do not have. Usually contentment will follow.


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## frustr8dhubby (Dec 23, 2010)

You are absolutely right. I have it made in so many ways. That is part of the reason this whole situation bugs me. I feel guilty that this is such an issue for me and I have told her that. But it is really the only thing I ask for. If she is truly happy and her needs are met as she claims, is it really too much to ask to meet the one need that I have?


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## Jamison (Feb 10, 2011)

frustr8dhubby said:


> You are absolutely right. I have it made in so many ways. That is part of the reason this whole situation bugs me. I feel guilty that this is such an issue for me and I have told her that. But it is really the only thing I ask for. If she is truly happy and her needs are met as she claims, is it really too much to ask to meet the one need that I have?


Does she not have sex with you at all? How often is it?


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## frustr8dhubby (Dec 23, 2010)

As I said if the stars are aligned we are up to about 2 times a week. But the frequency isn't necessarily the issue, it's the enthusiasm.


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## brendan (Jun 1, 2011)

frustr8dhubby said:


> I am sure I am going to get lambasted by the majority of you for this thread but I am really curious at this point. I know there are a few of you that swing or have swung but have any really tried an open marriage?
> 
> I have pretty much come to the conclusion that my wife just has no desire for sex, period. I am still concerned that it is only me she doesn't want but she swears up and down that she is happy/content and doesn't want anyone else either.
> 
> ...




good post - im in the same shoes. Have hinted at this but she declines and says she would be happy for me to go to a brothel though. however i have no interest in them however. I love her but her low libido no sex thing is getting to me now especially when other girls flirt with me every now and then.


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## annagarret (Jun 12, 2011)

frustr8dhubby said:


> Thanks folks, I know. I am pretty much reserved to staying with her I was just hoping to have some answer that we could both live with happily.
> 
> All in all I am happy and should just accept that I am happy. I just REALLY hate these up and down times where I get really frustrated/angry over something that I really don't think she can control. She can have sex more, which she is trying to do, but I don't think you can just create desire/attraction...


You are not alone in your struggles. My husband and I have had this discussion but for very different reasons. We are highly sexed people and thought about doing this with friends of ours for variety and fun. We then quickly realized how much we would stand to loose and the severe consequences it would bring to 2 families with children. The swinging lifestyle never comes about like in a fantasy. 

Maybe you and your wife should see a sex therapist who is well trained in these kind of issues. Don't seek others, you will probably live to regret it


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Never try swinging to fix things, period.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

F8,
I am calling BS on this. Actually BS squared. 

What I believe to be true:
- The average woman has a noticeably lower drive than the average man
- The "average" man often overheats the marriage in an attempt to get more sex. And at the same time he is crowding his wife he is NOT enforcing his boundaries. 

Those 2 things combined will kill any woman's desire for "HIM" over time. In those very common situations, she wants sex, just not with her H. And while in some cases the H can recover, the longer the timeframe during which he overheated/didn't demand respect, the harder any real repair is.

My observation on good marriages is equally simple. If she respects you AND she enjoys your company/likes you, your sex life will be at least good. Because SHE wants it to be good for you. 





frustr8dhubby said:


> I have mentioned MC several times in the last few years. She won't go.
> 
> Is she really that dysfunctional? She seems to be on par with about every other woman in our neighborhood/circle of friends.
> 
> In fact before coming to TAM, I have only ever met 1 married woman in real life that actually wants sex.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> F8,
> I am calling BS on this. Actually BS squared.
> 
> What I believe to be true:
> ...


:iagree:

Coming from the female perspective of this equation, I would totally agree with MEM. At least, that is the way it works in my good marriage.


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## annagarret (Jun 12, 2011)

I don't know MEM, I feel that a wife should want to give her husband the best sex he ever could have because he chose HER. I never want my husband to think about leaving me because he doesn't get enough great sex. This thinking in turn also increases my fulfillment too. We all know there are many willing people out there to whom a spouse could turn to for sex. I never want my husband to feel that way..It would have been my fault for pushing him away.

I also am convinced a wifes friends can easily influence her in this way. A lot of girl friends share to much and ***** about their husbands and how much they "NAG" them to have sex. It can be a running joke amongst women. IF this is the case, a wife needs to dump those friends and find "MEN LOVING" friends. I refuse to bash men and especially my husband with any of my friends. I actually am really sick of all the husband/male bashing going on....it's juvenille


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

annagarret said:


> I don't know MEM, I feel that a wife should want to give her husband the best sex he ever could have because he chose HER. I never want my husband to think about leaving me because he doesn't get enough great sex. This thinking in turn also increases my fulfillment too. We all know there are many willing people out there to whom a spouse could turn to for sex. I never want my husband to feel that way..It would have been my fault for pushing him away.
> 
> I also am convinced a wifes friends can easily influence her in this way. A lot of girl friends share to much and ***** about their husbands and how much they "NAG" them to have sex. It can be a running joke amongst women. IF this is the case, a wife needs to dump those friends and find "MEN LOVING" friends. I refuse to bash men and especially my husband with any of my friends. I actually am really sick of all the husband/male bashing going on....it's juvenille


:iagree:

A good wife SHOULD want to make her husband happy by filling up his love "tank". Unfortunately, there are many wives who either start out not believing this or they get to the point of not being able to fill their husband's "tank" anymore because their own emotional "tanks" are constantly drained by inattentiveness on their spouse's part and they end up having little to give. Husbands and wives have to continually fill up each other's "tanks" in order for the marriage engine to run smoothly.

I agree that man-bashing AND woman-bashing is juvenile and should stop. You can do that one friend at a time - by refusing to join in the bashing and building up your own spouse in the eyes of others.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

the only thing that sounds open here are legs.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

Runs like Dog said:


> the only thing that sounds open here are legs.


:lol:

Your sense of humor kills me. I always appreciate your comebacks.

Seriously, hearts are open too - open hearts, open legs.


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## Laurae1967 (May 10, 2011)

Does your wife orgasm during sex? Twice a week is pretty good for a married couple with kids. If she isn't enthusiastic, maybe it's because she isn't being fulfilled. That might mean you have to figure out if you need to be a better lover. She may feel shy about asking but you have to make it good for her so she'll want it more.


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## frustr8dhubby (Dec 23, 2010)

Laurae1967,

Up until recently, no, probably not but it it's pretty hard to orgasm when you are trying to hurry up and get it over with I assume. Now recently she has let me give her oral again and those 3 times in the last 3 months I know she has.

MEM,

I know we have had discussions before and I probably agree with you but I'm at a loss how to "fix" it still. Nothing I change or have changed make a difference. At this point, I am tired of f***ing trying. But I do have to add that I don't see her or too many of her friends give any indication of any interest in anyone or anything else sexual either...


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## jayde (Jun 17, 2011)

Hi - It seems that you two have a solid marriage other than the sex. Have you asked her about seeing a sex therapist (perhaps with you?) I have read recently that some women can use ED meds to increase sex drive - perhaps she can speak to her Dr or gyn/obgyn. A friend of mine is a pharmacist and has spoken about hormone therapy to help with sex drive. Given all that sounds good with your marriage and the efforts you've made perhaps either of these would be worth pursuing.


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## frustr8dhubby (Dec 23, 2010)

What exactly does a sex therapist do?? Thanks.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

frustr8dhubby said:


> What exactly does a sex therapist do?? Thanks.


Sex therapist's are trained counselors - the same training as regular marriage and individual counselors. They also have additional specialized training in sexual relationships. The counseling sessions are very similar to regular counseling sessions except the focus is mainly on the sexual relationship.

Some of the things they will do is explore your relationship in general, your current sexual relationship, your sexual background, your mental and emotional views of sex. It is all talk based counseling, although they usually give you homework to work on as a couple in between sessions and sometimes have you report back. If you are serious about this option, call several of them and talk about how they conduct their sessions and gather as much info as possible so you can find one you both are comfortable with. Don't feel like you cant change to a different one if you don't click with one. Just like in any counseling you need to have a good trust level and be as open as possible with the therapist. 

After reading your post, if I were you I would definitely look into getting some sex therapy. I think you are at a point where you and your wife need some professional help with your issues. Google ASSECT to find a good sex therapist in your area. 

I have used a sex therapist for some of our issues so if you have any questions, feel free to PM me. 

Good Luck


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## EvanderS (Jul 1, 2011)

I agree with everything that is said here. I think going to a sex therapist is probably the best idea.

I went through a phase in my life where I had open relationships. Then I got serious about a few women. Then I got more serious about one woman. Then I found myself in a monogamous relationship with this one woman.

In my world monogamy is the higher evolution. It has a higher degree of intimacy and trust. It has the least amount of distractions. It allows us to raise a family and build commitments.

One last point... I think there is a bell curve spectrum of people who have sexual energy. Some people are simply not interested in sex and/or have a low sex drive.

Highly sexual people change have enough sexual energy for everyone around them. Think sports stars. They turn on sexual circuitry of people who don't normally have this... and this is why men and women have these brief experiences of sexual states that aren't permanent.

Think of the highly sexual people as generators. Some generators are stronger than others. But the non-generators make better managers, thinkers, and analyzers. 

Non-generators can enjoy the sexual energy of sexual partners... and may even need it. But non-generators with weak generators, or non-generators with non-generators may not have much of a sex life and would be happy with that.

A couple of weak generators may have similar problems.

The main thing to realize is that even a weak generator can build up his sexual energy by focusing on it and developing skills in the bedroom and in everyday situations that make him or her more attractive to people around them... creating more responses. On the other hand you can go the opposite way and dim the energy and live a quiet life.
*
The problem is with the cravings*. People want more sex. People feel unworthy. People feel dissatisfied and they blame the lack of sex. People want comfort through sex. People want communication and they use sex. People want attention and they use sex. *So people think sex, sex, sex*... but what they really want is a _complex array of stuff_ that they are _unconscious about all of this_. They aren't aware of how much stress they are putting on their partners because the apparent issue is about sex... but the unconscious issue is much deeper and darker.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

I also recommend your wife looking into hormone therapy. At her age she is probably going through peri-menopause. But it also sounds like her hormones have been amiss since the birth of her last child, which is not that uncommon. You have to find a doctor that will test all of her hormone levels, including testosterone, and especially the free floating testosterone. Google: bio-identical hormone doctors with your city and state. More and more doctors are doing this testing so you could also call some gyn/obs in your area and see if any of them will do the testing. If it were me, I would only use bio-identical hormones but you should do some research and see what your own thoughts.

If she is on any form of hormonal based birth control - she may want to look into getting off of them as they can really mess with a woman's hormones and not for the good. Most of them kill libido and sometimes for a long time after. 

There are so many things that affect a woman's libido - it is so so complicated. You need to take an eclectic approach: examining all the factors - physical, mental, emotional, spiritual.

So start with the physical - getting everything checked out, get a sex therapist to help you explore the rest. Be patient and loving and improve yourself so that you are an attractive partner (physically, emotionally, and spiritually (whatever that is to you). Be supportive but not a wimp! Your needs are important just as hers our - you both need to work on this together to find the happy solutions for you marriage.

I for one think an open marriage in your case is probably not the solution but could be the beginning of the end. 

Good Luck


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Anna,
Your post below is almost verbatim out of my W's handbook on a happy and stable marriage. 

And I have posted this before my W has this semi-humorous (but deadly serious) posture on this stuff which kind of goes like this. 

I am here for you - and will do whatever you want/need me to. And if you aren't happy about this stuff TELL ME and I will fit it. Oh and one more thing - if you cheat I will ensure the remainder of your life is both short and miserable. 





annagarret said:


> I don't know MEM, I feel that a wife should want to give her husband the best sex he ever could have because he chose HER. I never want my husband to think about leaving me because he doesn't get enough great sex. This thinking in turn also increases my fulfillment too. We all know there are many willing people out there to whom a spouse could turn to for sex. I never want my husband to feel that way..It would have been my fault for pushing him away.
> 
> I also am convinced a wifes friends can easily influence her in this way. A lot of girl friends share to much and ***** about their husbands and how much they "NAG" them to have sex. It can be a running joke amongst women. IF this is the case, a wife needs to dump those friends and find "MEN LOVING" friends. I refuse to bash men and especially my husband with any of my friends. I actually am really sick of all the husband/male bashing going on....it's juvenille


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

A good article about testosterone levels in women

Testosterone


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Quoted for Truth

Man up F8



MEM11363 said:


> F8,
> I am calling BS on this. Actually BS squared.
> 
> What I believe to be true:
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

F8,
Conrad can help you. He is very good at this stuff. He is very fair, considerate and kind while at the same time firm and determined that he not be taken for granted. 

I will tell you - in your type situation - I would insist on a post-nup and let my W know that when the last kid left my departure would happen. 

And ummm thats not "idle" talk. A couple times - over non-sexual bad behavior - I have asked my W: Do you think if you did "THAT" when the kids were grown, that I would stay with you? 





Conrad said:


> Quoted for Truth
> 
> Man up F8


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> I will tell you - in your type situation - I would insist on a post-nup and let my W know that when the last kid left my departure would happen.


To the latter, you actually have to be prepared to go through with (or at least appear so convincing she thinks you will), and as to the former, if the W won't go to MC, what will make her take notice of a post-nup? In the UK, they're legally worthless (like a pre-nup), and in all probablity printed on paper so hard you can't wipe your arse on it.


> And ummm thats not "idle" talk. A couple times - over non-sexual bad behavior - I have asked my W: Do you think if you did "THAT" when the kids were grown, that I would stay with you?


This is the key. You have to decide this is the hill you die on.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

8 I think you have gotten many good suggestions and advice. I'd like to add that I am the LD one in my marriage. My husband never seems anxious about sex or having sex. I dont know how he has cultivated this attitude. He is very sensual and he cannot go much more than 3 days without sex. Yet he seems assured that he will get what he needs. I don't feel crowded or pressured by him and he never begs for sex. 

He is dominant and a gentler version of MEM, my husband expects to have sex with his wife. He let me know early on it is natural and normal. My sense is that many men are a little guilty? that they desire sex with the frequency that befits their personal preference. That may come about by the reaction of their wives to normal male sexuality. It is not an attempt to be cruel on the part of women, it is a lack of understanding. I didn't until I read books and post my men on this forum. 

For instance, I don't think it is reasonable to expect a man to make himself not have an errection if the person of his desire is in close proximity. It that even possible? If I am not mistaken errections are not always controllable. Your wife may not understand that. 

What I am saying is that you have to be confident that you are normal and that your reactions to your wife, whom you find sexualy attractive, is normal. Then you can approach her with more assurance and confidence and less heat. She would not expect to do without affection from you, which is a basic need for most women, she may be able to see that the corollary is that you cannot go without the basic male need for sex. For you it as an expression of love and acceptance. If she will make an effort to understand herself as a woman and you as a man you may meet with success. 

For me as a women, it is important that my husband appear in control and not desperate, or needy. I make very sure that I dont put him in that position, so it's win-win for us. I think you need to get yourself into a state of cool control. It difficult when you are not getting what you think you need. I think it all starts with controlling your mind and actions. If you can't do that, you may not be any more successful in a new relationship, should it come to that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

EvanderS said:


> I agree with everything that is said here. I think going to a sex therapist is probably the best idea.
> 
> I went through a phase in my life where I had open relationships. Then I got serious about a few women. Then I got more serious about one woman. Then I found myself in a monogamous relationship with this one woman.
> 
> ...


Agreed. 

Great posts from you and ScannerGaurd.


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## HelloooNurse (Apr 12, 2010)

In my opinion, you two are just on different levels. You need X amount of sex and she needs Y. You can sugar coat it all you want but the bottom line is that you two just have different needs. That is reality - there is no sugar coating reality. So instead of listening to all these people here telling you to diagnose her with suchandsuch or take her to a sex therapist or do this or that, maybe you should just accept reality and realise - that is how she is. You two are just different, that is it. Yes, it is that simple. You want sex, she does not. It doesn't go deeper than that (unless she has mental health issues that have been untreated ofcourse, but that would show itself outside of sex as well). Sometimes the most obvious facts are the ones that everyone misses.

Ok, so with this in mind, what to do next? Instead of trying to change her into somebody she isn't, like the previous posters suggest, maybe try to respect her as a person with her own wants/desires/etc (that may not include sex). If these wants/needs/etc do not mesh with yours, then you clearly aren't suited to be with eachother and an amicable divorce would be the best thing. Yes it is that simple. She might be great in all other areas of life but the bottom line is, you want something that she cannot supply for you, and it sounds to me like this is a dealbreaker for you. They say sex is as important as food/oxygen/water.. if she could not supply you with that (and you didnt have access to it yourself), would you be sticking around? 

If you look at other posts in this forum, you will see all the huge variety of methods people have attempted, in order to change their spouse into someone they are not (ie. someone who is gagging for it). In each of these instances, the "treatment" fails. Only once in a blue moon will you see someone try something that actually works. So with that in mind, wouldn't you rather spare yourself the heartache, the money and the years of your life by just accepting reality? People spend years of their life and thousands of dollars trying to change their spouses and it very.. rarely.. works. People are who they are - whether we like it or not. No amount of treatment/herbs/sexy lingerie/sex toys/etc are going to change that. Well, that is just my alternative viewpoint anyways.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

Just out of curiosity. Are you only attentive and affectionate with your wife prior to having sex with her?


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## frustr8dhubby (Dec 23, 2010)

Nope, not at all. We are pretty much always affectionate, though I tend to be much more physical just because that is what I prefer. (Meaning physical touch).

A good example is at night. I like to touch her and she doesn't mind the spooning aspect. However, I like to stroke her arm or just run my hand around her belly etc. She gets pissed because she says it tickles her and keeps her awake.


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## frustr8dhubby (Dec 23, 2010)

HelloooNurse,

Yes it should be that simple but I don't believe that it really is. Maybe I'm just too much of a simpleton.


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## ladybird (Jun 16, 2010)

seeking sanity said:


> The open marriage idea in a sexless marriage is usually one of the last stages of denial. The problem isn't that you crave sex with a variety of women, the problem is you crave sex with your wife but she won't participate, so you're looking for alternative solutions.
> 
> The better solution is to leave the marriage. One of two things will happen: She'll realize that she's been taking you for granted and step up, or you'll free yourself to date and eventually find a new relationship that better meets your needs.
> 
> ...


:iagree:


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## SKN (Jul 29, 2011)

It comes down to the fact, men and women are different! Women require a lot of trust and security, to open themselves up to sex! They are very exposed and vulnerable in the act of sex! Men, really, are don't require much. It can be anywhere any time any way. 
The problem with open relationships is we never get the chance to fully open up to experience a great sexual experience. We'll always hide that little something. There is no right answer. Out of respect you are only being selfish wanting your marriage and your sexual freedom too! Pick one, they don't work together! Sorry!


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