# Email from Wife: I Should Consider Separating



## Mangoseed

My wife just sent me an email saying that she'd like us to meet later to discuss separating.

This is my first post here. I imagine that many threads in this section of the forum start off this way. I would appreciate some help from those of you willing to provide thoughts/opinions/advice.

To say that I'm in a state of shock right now would be an understatement. I'm at work right now with a long list of items that I have to complete for a huge project and I can't even think straight. I know I won't be able to deliver now.

Background/Profile:
- Married almost 14 yrs (together almost 19)
- Two daughters (14 & 9)
- Late 30s

In her email, she states that this isn't intended to hurt me. But it does hurt. A lot.

We've had our ups and downs, but things have been nose-diving for her personally for the past year and I'm sure that these problems are contributing to her making this decision. 

We had an argument this past Friday. It only differed slightly from our usual arguments since this time I decided not to be the doormat that I tend to be with her. In what felt like me being torn down for my character and her making demands for things that she said I needed to do to "change", I responded saying that I know who I am and I know my value and that I'm NOT going to change. She looked stunned (this was much different than my usual apology and "yes dear") and responded with somewhat of a veiled threat. "Oh... you're not going to change? Fine. I'll change. You watch!"

Much against my inner voice, I approached her later that evening and told her that I regretted us having that argument and that we could seek out marriage counselling. Or that I could seek out individual counselling as a pre-requisite to marriage counselling. She said nothing and walked away.

So I suppose this is the change she had in mind.

Her problems with me:
1. Lack of Communication: I keep it limited. I tend to communicate facts, not feelings. Yes, I'm an introvert. Conversations with her feel uncomfortable and unsafe to me. I feel judged and feel like things I say are eventually used against me in future conversations. I often feel like my thoughts and opinions are dismissed.
2. Lack of Support: (She says she feels unsupported by me, but she's not referring to chores or parental duties. I do plenty of those... even to the point where it's unconventional. This gripe I'm not clear on, but can only imagine that she's referring to "backing her up" when she's in a state of conflict... either with someone else or a general situation that she's struggling with)
3. "We don't share the same core values/priorities": These are her words and I'm unclear on this as well. I find she usually says this when she's angry and seems to be plucking anything out of the air to hurl at me. I think it has to do mostly with me having a laid-back approach to situations, which aggravates her since she wants everything done and addressed yesterday.

In her email, she said that my "soft spoken nature" earned me the praise of others while her "confrontational nature" earned her malice from others. This has always been the dynamic of our relationship and the way others view us and I'm pretty sure she resents it. Makes it difficult for her to share her version of an argument that we had and convince her friends (who may know me personally) that she played as small a role as she's claiming.

There's been little said between us since that argument. Mostly just talk regarding our bathroom remodel (part of what triggered the argument on Friday). On Sunday, I was doing some cleaning and she walked up behind me and just started staring at me. She was sad. I put the vacuum down and gave her a hug and she cried on my shoulder. Probably dumb, but I took that as a sign that things might start mending. It was probably her saying goodbye to me in her head.

Her email said that we should separate to address our own internal struggles.

Anyway... I haven't responded to her email. I dread going home and seeing her. I dread having to consider a life where we're divorced. I dread how this will affect our kids.

I think I just want advice on my approach with her. I don't converse with her well (hence problem #1 above) and likely to be even more guarded when we have this conversation.

Thanks in advance,

Mangoseed

_P.S. - Our problems run pretty deep, but I didn't want to make my first post too heavy. I'm pretty certain that I'll be able to peel back some layers as the conversation goes on._


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## *Deidre*

I feel like counseling together and individually, would help you both, rather than separating. She might have chosen to suggest separating because she doesn't know how to bridge the gap between you both. I think it's good that you're standing up to her though, it's important to not let her treat you like her voice is the only one that matters, but she was still shocked at the same time. She sounds like she doesn't respect you, and you have accepted the role of trying to earn her respect.

I'd suggest counseling tonight, but if she keeps pushing separation, I'd ask her about the logistics of it all, because to live in two separate homes, etc will be costly, and that might cause you both MORE stress. Doesn't sound like there's any major deal breakers, but sometimes, people allow small issues to mount up until there is a tsunami coming at them. 

I would suggest marriage and individual counseling, and see what she says. Sorry you're in this place right now.


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## Lostinthought61

Man that is cold....has she always been methodical in personality? 

aside from that....can you tell me has she said anything of these issues in past conversation...have you ever engaged in marriage couseling ? 

and what is her expectation you leave the home?


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## naiveonedave

she have a new boyfriend?


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## Evinrude58

When a woman wants a separation and she's constantly coming up with bad things about a man that don't amount to huge problems---- There's usually an unknown 3 person in the marriage.
That's all I'm saying.

You should: check on an attorney.
See a doctor about anti-anxiety drugs like zoloft or zanax.
Stop being a doormat to your own special narcissist.
Start working on a new life. I hate to say it, but once this stuff starts, it rarely gets better.

JMO


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## tropicalbeachiwish

When a spouse sends an email like that, it is usually because they don’t feel safe in just started a deep conversation in real life. She’s giving you time to think about it beforehand so it can be a rational conversation later, as much as possible. So, think about what your needs are and if they’re being met or not. Vice versa. What do you think are her needs and which ones aren’t being met? 

A separation where one spouse leaves the house is usually never recommended. There are success stories of that, but not many. You can try an in-house separation though. That gives both of you space (Look up the 180) and allows you to co-parent.


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## Yeswecan

Whatever the case, I suggest you meet your W as requested, sit and just listen. No retorts. No interrupting. Keep eye contact. Let your W get it out on the table. That is your first best start at this juncture. Do not take a defensive posture or respond in a defensive way. Do not point blame. Express your desires in the continuing of the marriage.


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## farsidejunky

Check your phone bill, OP. Rule out a third person involved in the marriage before you take any sort of action.

That said, I would not encourage nor would I participate in any sort of separation. Either we work together to fix the marriage under the same roof, or we can move to divorce.


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## justastatistic

I would also rule out a third party's involvement before going any further. Pick up a couple of recorders before going home tonight, then place them where she is likely to speak to someone on the phone later, i.e, in her car, bedroom, kitchen etc. Then go ahead and have the talk with her, but commit to nothing. If she insists that you need to separate, ask her when she will be moving out. Let her know that you aren't going anywhere away from the kids.

If there is a third party involved, she will discuss your meeting with him (or her) the next day, and then you will know what's going on.

FWIW, armchair analyzing what you wrote, your wife sounds borderline to me.


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## ButtPunch

farsidejunky said:


> Check your phone bill, OP. Rule out a third person involved in the marriage before you take any sort of action.
> 
> That said, I would not encourage nor would I participate in any sort of separation. Either we work together to fix the marriage under the same roof, or we can move to divorce.


I agree whole heartily with this.


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## jb02157

An e-mail of all things. That's not only cold it's really telling...and that you shouldn't feel bad about it?? Sorry hun, it's business nothing personal. She obviously doesn't want to tell you in person probably because she is incapable of facing you with this. She also seems quite selfish about this, you have two daughters at ages where something like this could have a very adverse affect on their lives. Meet with her sure, but not on her terms. If you do meet with her, meet her with a marriage counselor, so that she knows that the result will not be separation only trying to make things work better. You have say in this to and make that very clear. She's a woman with two daughters, she knows that a divorce will probably work to her advantage financially, so it easier for her to quit instead of trying to fix the marriage.


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## uhtred

I think your first goal should be to learn what is making her unhappy. Don't be defensive, don't argue, try not to get upset, just get facts on what she wants. This is not the time to then say why you are unhappy with her, this is a fact finding mission.

When you know what it is she wants, you can decide if you are willing to comply. It may be largely miscommunication and you can easily change to meet her needs. It may be she wants something completely different from what you want to be, in which case divorce is the the best option for both of you.


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## Mangoseed

*Deidre* said:


> I feel like counseling together and individually, would help you both, rather than separating. She might have chosen to suggest separating because she doesn't know how to bridge the gap between you both.


Thanks for responding.

In her email, she said that we use this time to address our individual "traumas".

For her, I mentioned in my original post that she's been nose-diving. Downward spiral in terms of losing people who she considered her friends and losing her favourite past time. That's a long story that I want to share when I have more time.

For me, I told her that her constant berating is my trauma. Her constant need to be angry and to hold on to anger. I feel no confidence in her presence.

We've tried counselling in the past. Considering we're where we are now, it's hard to say whether or not it worked. Maybe we just didn't follow-through on the things that we were counselled to do. I'd be willing to try again.

She's been binge-reading self-help books. I haven't been keeping up with all of them, but we don't talk about them either. I just see them laying around. The current one seems to be instructing her to write a daily journal.

I don't think that she'll suggest me (or her) moving out. Probably just avoiding each other, except where it has to do with the kids, and sleeping separately.

One of her "friends" (more of an acquaintance) recently went through this. I was actually surprised (again, looking at their relationship from the outside). They did an in-house separation. They co-parented, but he slept in another room, so I'm sure she'll want to follow that model. I haven't checked in to see what their status is now, but I'm pretty sure they're divorcing.


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## Evinrude58

Mangoseed said:


> Thanks for responding.
> 
> In her email, she said that we use this time to address our individual "traumas".
> 
> For her, I mentioned in my original post that she's been nose-diving. Downward spiral in terms of losing people who she considered her friends and losing her favourite past time. That's a long story that I want to share when I have more time.
> 
> For me, I told her that her constant berating is my trauma. *Her constant need to be angry and to hold on to anger. I feel no confidence in her presence.*
> 
> We've tried counselling in the past. Considering we're where we are now, it's hard to say whether or not it worked. Maybe we just didn't follow-through on the things that we were counselled to do. I'd be willing to try again.
> 
> She's been binge-reading self-help books. I haven't been keeping up with all of them, but we don't talk about them either. I just see them laying around. The current one seems to be instructing her to write a daily journal.
> 
> I don't think that she'll suggest me (or her) moving out. Probably just avoiding each other, except where it has to do with the kids, and sleeping separately.
> 
> One of her "friends" (more of an acquaintance) recently went through this. I was actually surprised (again, looking at their relationship from the outside). They did an in-house separation. They co-parented, but he slept in another room, so I'm sure she'll want to follow that model. I haven't checked in to see what their status is now, but I'm pretty sure they're divorcing.


This just hit me hard. I'm finding the same thing in my current relationship. Luckily, I'm not married. If I can't find a way to fix this, I'm walking. 
I was told as recently as last night, "if you don't like it, the door is open"---concerning a problem that she won't address whatsoever...... 
What you're experiencing, I believe to be the symptom of a person that is all about themselves, lacks respect for you, and does NOT consider your feelings. It's all about her. I don't know if that can be "fixed". Likely she is incapable of saying she is sorry, correct? And, if you do point out an obvious wrong she has committed, rather than say she is sorry, she deflects blame on past wrongs which you supposedly did that she considers "similar" to what she did that was obviously wrong.


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## Yeswecan

Mangoseed said:


> One of her "friends" (more of an acquaintance) recently went through this. I was actually surprised (again, looking at their relationship from the outside). They did an in-house separation. They co-parented, but he slept in another room, so I'm sure she'll want to follow that model. I haven't checked in to see what their status is now, but I'm pretty sure they're divorcing.


So your W is being coached by this friend? Your W needs a new friend because misery likes company.


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## *Deidre*

Mangoseed said:


> Thanks for responding.
> 
> In her email, she said that we use this time to address our individual "traumas".
> 
> For her, I mentioned in my original post that she's been nose-diving. Downward spiral in terms of losing people who she considered her friends and losing her favourite past time. That's a long story that I want to share when I have more time.
> 
> For me, I told her that her constant berating is my trauma. Her constant need to be angry and to hold on to anger. I feel no confidence in her presence.
> 
> We've tried counselling in the past. Considering we're where we are now, it's hard to say whether or not it worked. Maybe we just didn't follow-through on the things that we were counselled to do. I'd be willing to try again.
> 
> She's been binge-reading self-help books. I haven't been keeping up with all of them, but we don't talk about them either. I just see them laying around. The current one seems to be instructing her to write a daily journal.
> 
> I don't think that she'll suggest me (or her) moving out. Probably just avoiding each other, except where it has to do with the kids, and sleeping separately.
> 
> One of her "friends" (more of an acquaintance) recently went through this. I was actually surprised (again, looking at their relationship from the outside). They did an in-house separation. They co-parented, but he slept in another room, so I'm sure she'll want to follow that model. I haven't checked in to see what their status is now, but I'm pretty sure they're divorcing.


Okay, I see. I'm usually one to leap at ''there's another person involved'' but not sure, with the details you're sharing. BUT...I'd take the advice of some others here before making any decisions, I'd check the phone bill and see if there's any numbers that you don't know or recognize that keep coming up, check internet history, etc. It might be an emotional affair, it doesn't have to be physical, and she could be caught up in the drama of it all, thus her crying and constant frustration with you. I wouldn't tell her that you suspect anything, just do that on your own, because how many people really would admit to having an affair when asked. We don't want to think the worst for you and scare you, but before making any major decisions, do some investigating to see if there *could be* someone else.


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## BetrayedDad

Mangoseed said:


> We had an argument this past Friday. It only differed slightly from our usual arguments since this time I decided not to be the doormat that I tend to be with her. In what felt like me being torn down for my character and her making demands for things that she said I needed to do to "change", I responded saying that I know who I am and I know my value and that I'm NOT going to change. She looked stunned (this was much different than my usual apology and "yes dear") and responded with somewhat of a veiled threat. "Oh... you're not going to change? Fine. I'll change. You watch!"


My gut reaction is to up the ante and call her bluff. My response would of been, "Thank god this nightmare is over! I'll start shopping for a divorce lawyer right away, thanks!!! "

The fact that she did this by email leads me to believe she's a coward and she's just trying to intimidate you into returning to your "yes dear" doormat ways. Don't fall for her ruse.


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## jb02157

Mangoseed said:


> Thanks for responding.
> 
> In her email, she said that we use this time to address our individual "traumas".
> 
> For her, I mentioned in my original post that she's been nose-diving. Downward spiral in terms of losing people who she considered her friends and losing her favourite past time. That's a long story that I want to share when I have more time.
> 
> For me, I told her that her constant berating is my trauma. Her constant need to be angry and to hold on to anger. I feel no confidence in her presence.
> 
> We've tried counselling in the past. Considering we're where we are now, it's hard to say whether or not it worked. Maybe we just didn't follow-through on the things that we were counselled to do. I'd be willing to try again.
> 
> She's been binge-reading self-help books. I haven't been keeping up with all of them, but we don't talk about them either. I just see them laying around. The current one seems to be instructing her to write a daily journal.
> 
> I don't think that she'll suggest me (or her) moving out. Probably just avoiding each other, except where it has to do with the kids, and sleeping separately.
> 
> One of her "friends" (more of an acquaintance) recently went through this. I was actually surprised (again, looking at their relationship from the outside). They did an in-house separation. They co-parented, but he slept in another room, so I'm sure she'll want to follow that model. I haven't checked in to see what their status is now, but I'm pretty sure they're divorcing.


I think she should really be mindful that what she's doing is being watch closely by her daughters. They are going to model the way they act by watching her and right now they are seeing this downward spiral. If for any other reason, she should cut the crap for their sakes. I've read article after article about teen and pre-teen girls acting out sexually and with drugs and alcohol when they see their mother's do this. I'm not sure how you say this as a husband, it might be better coming from a marriage counselor. She a role model whether she likes it or not.


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## Jessica38

Email is typically the recommended way if there's a chance things might get too heated and emotional. 

Has she given you an indication prior to this email that she has been unhappy in the marriage? 

I know that in Marriage Builders, Dr. Harley does recommend that women separate from husbands who are unwilling to meet their needs/address their complaints in the marriage. His advice is to let the husband know via a letter, as this often wakes up the husband to finally either 1. Work with them to improve the marriage, or 2. End the marriage because he's unwilling to work on it.

Is it possible that this is what's going on? Either way, Dr. Harley does recommend that spouses who are hit with a desire to separate without warning to investigate a possible PA/EA, as another man or woman can often be a new point of comparison to the spouse of what is missing in their own marriage.

I'm sorry you're going through this, but since you two do have issues in the marriage, it could be a good opportunity to get serious and work on it together from this point on. If there is another man though, that's not going to work, so you do have to investigate.

Do you have access to her texts/apps/devices?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Mangoseed

I want to address all of your posts, but before I do that I want to tackle the multiple inquiries of possible infidelity.

99% unlikely.

I know this because I got into a routine of keeping a very close on on her and her activities a couple of years ago when I WAS suspecting her of an affair.

The Story:
- She made friends with a co-worker (Call him Ted)
- He owned an MMA gym as an after-work venture
- She was desperate to lose weight (she was >200lbs at the time) and decided to try it out
- She fell in love with it. Lost ~60lbs. Became a different person
- She communicated with him too regularly. Always giggling and staring at her phone. Tighter clothing, suddenly wearing leggings and tank-tops all the time
- Got Instagram - body selfies all the time
- Got angry at anyone who tried to pull her aside and question her "change"
- I became suspicious, questioned her on an affair with Ted, she called me insecure
- I did become insecure and started checking her emails and text messages regularly.

Long story short, at MOST, there may have been a one-sided emotional affair from her to him. There were no emotional exchanges of feelings. Just a Platonic friendship with a slight touch of obsession on her part. 

Wife stepped in from work as I'm typing this. We didn't say anything to each other and she's gone up to the bedroom.

I'll use this time now to discuss the downward spiral that I mentioned she's going through. It has to do with the above story.

My wife and Ted are no longer friends.

About 3 years ago, my wife took the leap towards becoming an amateur fighter. I hated the idea at the time (few men want to see their wife get punched and kicked) but eventually grew to accept it. Ted was her coach and she became really good at fighting.

I mistook her obsession with the sport to be an obsession with HIM. What's worse is that she started treating me and the kids like an after thought while she was immersed in this world. She had a sexy new body, gained the respect of women (online and in real life) who could never imagine doing such a tough sport. Her online before/after photos were always an inspiration to other women looking to lose weight. And with Ted's popularity in this amateur sport community, she was benefiting from similar attention and gaining a lot of new friends who also did the sport.

She started developing expectations of Ted... that he'd promote her rank at the gym, work harder at finding her more fights. When he failed to meet her expectations, she threatened to switch gyms and he's apologize and ask her not to do it. I make mention of this because I parallel it to the way she treats her relationship with me and others who earn the status of "close friend".

Last year, she sustained a knee injury during a fight that required surgery. Things haven't been the same since.

She was someone who spent 5-6 days a week, 4 hours at a time in the gym. With this injury (she was unable to walk), all she could do was sit on a couch. She drinks a bottle of wine every night. She's regained all of the weight.

She felt that Ted didn't do enough to check in on her and see how his "star fighter" was recovering. So she called him one day and angrily told him that "when she gets better", she's no longer going to fight for his gym. Basically breaking up with him, lol.

For some reason, she thought that this was going to be an amicable split (just business) and that they could continue to be friends. Ted was hurt (by this point, I had grown to like him as a friend once I got over my suspicions) and just decided to walk away without any argument.

What my wife soon found that all of the people in the fighting community, who she thought were her friends, suddenly stopped talking to her.

So, now we have:
1. An inability to do her favourite hobby (she still struggles to walk and now has other body pains as a result of imbalance in the body)
2. Poor body image as a result of weight gain
3. Feeling the sting of people dropping her once they've learned of the split between her and Ted

So she's angry. Angry all the time... and she thinks I'm her punching bag whenever PMS (or PMDD to be more specific) hits. And I'm not meaning to be rude when I mention that... I'm being very real here. She gives in wholly to the emotions that hit her and becomes completely unfiltered.

I've seen her internet search history... looking up terms like "depression". I personally don't think she's depressed. I think it's an overused label that people try to apply when they're just disappointed with the cards they've been dealt. A year ago, she was on top of the world and now it's all gone.

Going back to the infidelity inquiry, I still check her phone/email/text activity on occasion. I don't think there's anyone else. Mostly, I just look at it to try to see where her head is at.

Long-winded post, but hopefully this provides more context.


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## Mangoseed

Yeswecan said:


> Whatever the case, I suggest you meet your W as requested, sit and just listen. No retorts. No interrupting. Keep eye contact. Let your W get it out on the table. That is your first best start at this juncture. Do not take a defensive posture or respond in a defensive way. Do not point blame. Express your desires in the continuing of the marriage.


Thanks. I think I'll give this a try


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## Mangoseed

Evinrude58 said:


> What you're experiencing, I believe to be the symptom of a person that is all about themselves, lacks respect for you, and does NOT consider your feelings. It's all about her. I don't know if that can be "fixed". Likely she is incapable of saying she is sorry, correct? And, if you do point out an obvious wrong she has committed, rather than say she is sorry, she deflects blame on past wrongs which you supposedly did that she considers "similar" to what she did that was obviously wrong.


You've hit the nail on the head. Described her to a "T". 

Maybe you're the boyfriend that everyone is asking me about, lol.


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## Jessica38

Mangoseed, the 4 hours in the gym and intense focus on her sport to the exclusion of the family sound to me like independent behavior, in which your wife does things without first considering how you feel (case in point: either get on board with the fighting or suffer in silence). This is a HUGE lovebuster in marriage (not the physical activity part, the doing what she wants regardless of how you feel about it part). 

Bottom line: Your wife needs to learn how to be a wife, and that means taking her husband's feelings into account and making decisions you both agree on. Her drinking also sounds like independent behavior in marriage (unless you agree to her drinking a bottle a night, but it sounds like you don't?).

I'd sit down with her and tell her that you agree- the marriage as it is will not work for you either. She can either 1. Start a marriage program with you, or 2. Move forward with the separation, but she will need to find a place to live.

And I'd get started on His Needs, Her Needs, and Lovebusters and work through them with a Marriage Builders coach. Sometimes the books alone are enough, but in your case, your wife will need to hear from a 3rd party how her independent behavior is unacceptable in marriage.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Tron

Answer to her next rant: 

"I agree that things aren't working. I'm not your whipping boy and I'm tired of it ... So, when are you leaving?"

But seriously, she is used to steamrolling you and you laying down and taking it. I agree with the poster that said your concerns and your feelings don't matter to her. It is all about her, all the time.


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## Young at Heart

Mangoseed said:


> ....In her email, she said that we use this time to address our individual "traumas".
> 
> ....losing people who she considered her friends and losing her favourite past time.
> 
> For me, I told her that her constant berating is my trauma. Her constant need to be angry and to hold on to anger. I feel no confidence in her presence.
> 
> We've tried counselling in the past.
> 
> *.....She's been binge-reading self-help books. I haven't been keeping up with all of them, but we don't talk about them either. I just see them laying around. *
> 
> ....One of her "friends" (more of an acquaintance) recently went through this. I


A few thoughts. Please read the following and think about whether you have been present for your wife or not. Why Women Leave Men They Love: What Every Man Needs to Know | The Huffington Post

Next, she is loosing friend and that is one of her traumas and this friend is going through separation divorce/ Does that sound like as much of a red flag to you as it does to me? 

She has been binge-reading self-help books! Another red flag, but one with hope. She wants to change her life for the better. Unfortunately she that that life with you is not part of a better life for her. Maybe you need to help her figure out ho a changed you and a changed her can have a much better life togher.

Make sure that you focus on your two children. No matter what happens they are going to need to feel that you love them and will always love them.


Good luck


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## sokillme

Personally I would say if we are going to separate we might as well get a divorce. In my experience separating is an easier way to divorce. Tell her you are willing to work on the marriage but under the same roof.


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## Mangoseed

Jessica38 said:


> Email is typically the recommended way if there's a chance things might get too heated and emotional.
> 
> Has she given you an indication prior to this email that she has been unhappy in the marriage?
> 
> I know that in Marriage Builders, Dr. Harley does recommend that women separate from husbands who are unwilling to meet their needs/address their complaints in the marriage. His advice is to let the husband know via a letter, as this often wakes up the husband to finally either 1. Work with them to improve the marriage, or 2. End the marriage because he's unwilling to work on it.
> 
> Is it possible that this is what's going on? Either way, Dr. Harley does recommend that spouses who are hit with a desire to separate without warning to investigate a possible PA/EA, as another man or woman can often be a new point of comparison to the spouse of what is missing in their own marriage.
> 
> I'm sorry you're going through this, but since you two do have issues in the marriage, it could be a good opportunity to get serious and work on it together from this point on. If there is another man though, that's not going to work, so you do have to investigate.
> 
> Do you have access to her texts/apps/devices?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Interestingly, our church offered a marriage building course that we attended and it was based off of the writings and teachings of Dr. Harley. So we talked all about Love Banks and our Love Languages.

She's never outright expressed a desire to leave the marriage, but with her being as unfiltered as she is, it's come out as a threat often. 

"I'LL JUST TAKE THE KIDS AND LEAVE!"
"LOTS OF PEOPLE ARE MANAGING ON THEIR OWN, I CAN DO JUST FINE WITHOUT YOU!"

I don't take these seriously since so much of what she says seems to be done in a state of anger.

I don't know if my decision to finally push back was her interpretation of me being unwilling to work on things. I'm always willing and always have been willing. I don't want a broken home and I hate the conflict that we're in.

It's just difficult. And it's a cycle. We fight, I apologize and promise change, we're good for a while, and then it happens again.

What I'm tired of is the need for change always falling on my shoulders as if I'm the faulty one in the relationship.

I've sat back and quietly watched dozens of her friendships fall apart because people just choose to up and walk away from her irrational anger and outbursts.


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## sokillme

Mangoseed said:


> I want to address all of your posts, but before I do that I want to tackle the multiple inquiries of possible infidelity.
> 
> 99% unlikely.
> 
> I know this because I got into a routine of keeping a very close on on her and her activities a couple of years ago when I WAS suspecting her of an affair.
> 
> The Story:
> - She made friends with a co-worker (Call him Ted)
> - He owned an MMA gym as an after-work venture
> - She was desperate to lose weight (she was >200lbs at the time) and decided to try it out
> - She fell in love with it. Lost ~60lbs. Became a different person
> - She communicated with him too regularly. Always giggling and staring at her phone. Tighter clothing, suddenly wearing leggings and tank-tops all the time
> - Got Instagram - body selfies all the time
> - Got angry at anyone who tried to pull her aside and question her "change"
> - I became suspicious, questioned her on an affair with Ted, she called me insecure
> - I did become insecure and started checking her emails and text messages regularly.
> 
> Long story short, at MOST, there may have been a one-sided emotional affair from her to him. There were no emotional exchanges of feelings. Just a Platonic friendship with a slight touch of obsession on her part.
> 
> Wife stepped in from work as I'm typing this. We didn't say anything to each other and she's gone up to the bedroom.
> 
> I'll use this time now to discuss the downward spiral that I mentioned she's going through. It has to do with the above story.
> 
> My wife and Ted are no longer friends.
> 
> About 3 years ago, my wife took the leap towards becoming an amateur fighter. I hated the idea at the time (few men want to see their wife get punched and kicked) but eventually grew to accept it. Ted was her coach and she became really good at fighting.
> 
> I mistook her obsession with the sport to be an obsession with HIM. What's worse is that she started treating me and the kids like an after thought while she was immersed in this world. She had a sexy new body, gained the respect of women (online and in real life) who could never imagine doing such a tough sport. Her online before/after photos were always an inspiration to other women looking to lose weight. And with Ted's popularity in this amateur sport community, she was benefiting from similar attention and gaining a lot of new friends who also did the sport.
> 
> She started developing expectations of Ted... that he'd promote her rank at the gym, work harder at finding her more fights. When he failed to meet her expectations, she threatened to switch gyms and he's apologize and ask her not to do it. I make mention of this because I parallel it to the way she treats her relationship with me and others who earn the status of "close friend".
> 
> Last year, she sustained a knee injury during a fight that required surgery. Things haven't been the same since.
> 
> She was someone who spent 5-6 days a week, 4 hours at a time in the gym. With this injury (she was unable to walk), all she could do was sit on a couch. She drinks a bottle of wine every night. She's regained all of the weight.
> 
> She felt that Ted didn't do enough to check in on her and see how his "star fighter" was recovering. So she called him one day and angrily told him that "when she gets better", she's no longer going to fight for his gym. Basically breaking up with him, lol.
> 
> For some reason, she thought that this was going to be an amicable split (just business) and that they could continue to be friends. Ted was hurt (by this point, I had grown to like him as a friend once I got over my suspicions) and just decided to walk away without any argument.
> 
> What my wife soon found that all of the people in the fighting community, who she thought were her friends, suddenly stopped talking to her.
> 
> So, now we have:
> 1. An inability to do her favourite hobby (she still struggles to walk and now has other body pains as a result of imbalance in the body)
> 2. Poor body image as a result of weight gain
> 3. Feeling the sting of people dropping her once they've learned of the split between her and Ted
> 
> So she's angry. Angry all the time... and she thinks I'm her punching bag whenever PMS (or PMDD to be more specific) hits. And I'm not meaning to be rude when I mention that... I'm being very real here. She gives in wholly to the emotions that hit her and becomes completely unfiltered.
> 
> I've seen her internet search history... looking up terms like "depression". I personally don't think she's depressed. I think it's an overused label that people try to apply when they're just disappointed with the cards they've been dealt. A year ago, she was on top of the world and now it's all gone.
> 
> Going back to the infidelity inquiry, I still check her phone/email/text activity on occasion. I don't think there's anyone else. Mostly, I just look at it to try to see where her head is at.
> 
> Long-winded post, but hopefully this provides more context.


Personally this makes it seem much more likely in my opinion. She already showed she has poor boundaries. Let your wife text and hang out with a cage fighting personal trainer at your own risk. Sounds like she had and emotional affair with this guy and broke up, you are just babysitting her kids. Seriously dude, maybe you should be happy, she sounds awful.

Pro-tip to all married people, if you are not the primary relationship of the opposite sex in your spouses life, the marriage is basically over.


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## introvert

Drinking a bottle of wine every night is definitely contributing to your issue. That's totally problem drinking. Plus, she has lost the hobby that she was defining herself by...I would call her depressed. Depressed and alcoholic. And trust me, a bottle of wine (or more, you may not know the whole amount she is imbibing) is definitely going to remove any "filters" she would normally have. I come from an alcoholic family, and I know how alcohol affects one's social skills, or lack thereof.

Marriage counseling, definitely...and probably an alcohol assessment for her.

Please consider both of the above, and I honestly hope that things work out for your family. <3


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## Mangoseed

Jessica38 said:


> Mangoseed, the 4 hours in the gym and intense focus on her sport to the exclusion of the family sound to me like independent behavior, in which your wife does things without first considering how you feel (case in point: either get on board with the fighting or suffer in silence). This is a HUGE lovebuster in marriage (not the physical activity part, the doing what she wants regardless of how you feel about it part).
> 
> Bottom line: Your wife needs to learn how to be a wife, and that means taking her husband's feelings into account and making decisions you both agree on. Her drinking also sounds like independent behavior in marriage (unless you agree to her drinking a bottle a night, but it sounds like you don't?).
> 
> I'd sit down with her and tell her that you agree- the marriage as it is will not work for you either. She can either 1. Start a marriage program with you, or 2. Move forward with the separation, but she will need to find a place to live.
> 
> And I'd get started on His Needs, Her Needs, and Lovebusters and work through them with a Marriage Builders coach. Sometimes the books alone are enough, but in your case, your wife will need to hear from a 3rd party how her independent behavior is unacceptable in marriage.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


One of the common themes that I found... either in the books that she read, or the stuff that she'd Like/Share on Facebook and Instagram... was a very self-centred "It's all about me" philosophy. I could never buy into it, but it seems to be spreading like wildfire in terms of it being popular belief.

When I complained about her disappearance from our home and family life while she was pursuing herself at the gym, she said I was just trying to get in her way. So I stepped back and let go... and in doing so, I found myself feeling detached and no longer caring. I felt like it was the only way to get off the emotional roller coaster. I just had to let go and stop caring.

Once in a while, there would be a Facebook post praising me for "holding down the fort" at home so that she could pursue her dreams. I often rolled my eyes when I saw posts like these. It always felt like she would make these more for "likes" rather than feeding me "Words of Affirmation", which is my primary Love Language.

When it comes to the gym, we met half-way. I started attending the same gym and working out. Not fighting, but just general fitness. She appreciated that.

I don't like her drinking. I've never said it. I don't know how to let it come out without it sounding like judgement. I grew up in an alcohol free home. She grew up in a home where people treat alcohol like water.


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## BobSimmons

Mangoseed said:


> To say that I'm in a state of shock right now would be an understatement. I'm at work right now with a long list of items that I have to complete for a huge project and I can't even think straight. I know I won't be able to deliver now.
> 
> .[/I]


But yet find time to compose a very long post..a very long post.


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## Marc878

Mr Nice Guys get walked on. This maybe why you are where you are. Why don't you try a different tactic. The one you're doing will just keep you in misery.

Read up
https://7chan.org/lit/src/Robert_Glover_-_No_More_Mr_Nice_Guy.pdf


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## Holdingontoit

Your wife is cheating. Only question is with whom.
Do not move out of the family home. Period. Full stop. Once dad moves out he loses custody of his kids and ability to move back.
Get a lawyer. You need to know the rules in your state. Can you use VAR without her knowledge? Can you use recording as evidence? You may still want to use them but good if you realize what you can and cannot do with them.
If you have access to her computer, put a keylogger on it.
You got great advice about listening to her and gathering information about things you do (and don't do) that bother her. Soak that up. Thank her for sharing. Apologize for not already knowing. May or may not help your current marriage. But is priceless exercise that will help you in your next one.


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## introvert

Marc878 said:


> Mr Nice Guys get walked on. This maybe why you are where you are. Why don't you try a different tactic. The one you're doing will just keep you in misery.
> 
> Read up
> https://7chan.org/lit/src/Robert_Glover_-_No_More_Mr_Nice_Guy.pdf


Guys who consider themselves "Nice guys" seldom are.


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## Mangoseed

We still haven't spoken.

She's in the living room watching tv. I'm in the kitchen on the laptop typing this.

Our fight on Friday started with a phone call from her while I was at my dad's house building a shed.

We've been doing a bathroom remodel. It's been 6 weeks and overdue from the original 3 week schedule.

It's supposed to be her dream bathroom. She's been the primary contact for the contractor. I'm indifferent to the aesthetics. I just want it to work.

We ordered a custom mirror and he broke it during delivery, thus pushing out the completion date even further. Last week was the beginning of her pre-monthly cycle. As with every month, I'm usually bracing for some kind of conflict. The timing couldn't have been worse.

She called... said that I haven't been involved enough with communicating urgency to the contractor and she's tired of being the one to do it. I understood and agreed. Offered to take over communications with the contractor.

She continued... now with a raised voice. Saying that she's been working from home to help oversee his work and that she's worried that her boss will get upset. I've been doing the same, but that seems to have gone unnoticed. In fact, while I'm supposed to be working, I'm making trips all across the city to pick up additional tiles, faucets and hardwood.

Our connection was getting bad, but before ending the call, I told her that it didn't make sense for her to be angry at me and that we'd continue talking when I got home.

She was ready to pick up where she left off when I got home. But now, it was no longer about the bathroom reno. It's about me lacking Easter values because I spent Good Friday with the kids and my dad while she was at home sleeping. And it's about me "not caring" about our 14 yr old possibly being gay (based on text messages we found on her phone). And me not "supporting her" and that she doesn't count
- Laundry
- Making the kids breakfast/lunch daily before school
- Dishes
- Garbage Disposal
- Car Maintenance
- Shoveling (Winter) & Mowing (Summer)

... because those are for the house/kids and have nothing to do with her. She doesn't consider this "supporting her"



Maybe she's right. My parents still married, but they're traditional. I do more than my dad did (and still does) mistakenly thinking that these would be appreciated. But I've concluded that she just doesn't appreciate me in that way.

And the support... I think she needs to woman-up (is that a term?). She rejects traditional gender roles... but feels that anything challenging that she undertakes on her own (and doesn't have me there to take it off her hands) is a sign of me abandoning and not supporting her.

And that's when I hit her with the "I know who I am and I know my value" line. Her saying that my contributions mean nothing doesn't make it true.

I was the one that brought our daughter's phone messages to her attention. But I assumed the conversations were with a boy. Prior to noticing the phone messages, we saw that she's been really withdrawn lately, in a way that I suspect is usual for a teenager. There have been instances of her not handing in assignments at school. I've sat and spoken to her. She feels intimidated by her mom's tone when she tries to speak to her. I brought up trying to get a counselor that she can open up to and discuss things with.

When I gave my wife the phone and she read deeper into the messages, she recognized the girl as a classmate and friend of hers.

My response was that we need to be careful with our approach. If this isn't a phase or an experiment, then we don't want her feeling like she can't come to us. But as for my "feelings", I didn't indicate one way or another. Because I honestly don't know. She wants more from me in terms of a response... though she hasn't given me any more than I've given her. But apparently she brought it up to one of her friends (who I believe to be either gay or bisexual) and told her that I had NOTHING to say on the matter.

So that's a summary of what went down on Friday, which is why I'm now being faced with a request to separate.


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## NoChoice

Mangoseed said:


> Interestingly, our church offered a marriage building course that we attended and it was based off of the writings and teachings of Dr. Harley. So we talked all about Love Banks and our Love Languages.
> 
> She's never outright expressed a desire to leave the marriage, but with her being as unfiltered as she is, it's come out as a threat often.
> 
> "I'LL JUST TAKE THE KIDS AND LEAVE!"
> "LOTS OF PEOPLE ARE MANAGING ON THEIR OWN, I CAN DO JUST FINE WITHOUT YOU!"
> 
> I don't take these seriously since so much of what she says seems to be done in a state of anger.
> 
> *I don't know if my decision to finally push back was her interpretation of me being unwilling to work on things*. I'm always willing and always have been willing. I don't want a broken home and I hate the conflict that we're in.
> 
> It's just difficult. And it's a cycle. We fight, I apologize and promise change, we're good for a while, and then it happens again.
> 
> What I'm tired of is the need for change always falling on my shoulders as if I'm the faulty one in the relationship.
> 
> I've sat back and quietly watched dozens of her friendships fall apart because people just choose to up and walk away from her irrational anger and outbursts.


OP,
First and foremost you are assigning way too much cognizance to your wife, way too much. The bolded above is far beyond her ability to rationalize. If you are to attempt to save this marriage, which is a dubious endeavor, you must learn to deal with her on a level she understands. Threats and intimidation are not the tools of choice when cognizant people argue or debate but it is all she has. Presenting a rational, carefully reasoned point is beyond her ability therefore she uses what she knows and understands. Basically a bully mentality.

You seem to be thoughtful and logical and I can assure you that this approach will not work with her, she is devoid of both. Mentally developed individuals do not sidestep responsibility by shifting blame and responsibility to another, they listen to the facts presented and contemplate their validity, she cannot do this. There is an old adage about fighting fire with fire and if you are to have any success, which I regret to inform you is unlikely, you will need to modify your presentation.

You must stand firm to her insults, threats and attempt at coercion and present as strong and confident. It has been said here that "women find strong men attractive" but the reality is that it actually applies to girls, no matter the age of their body. Women are confident, self assured and have a remarkable depth of understanding regarding their mate, their family and their role as wife and mother, it is actually quite remarkable. Sadly your wife has not reached that level of maturation and it is highly doubtful that she will.

She is easily obsessed, unsure of herself, selfish, constantly needing validation, easily angered and thoughtless. Do you see these attributes as those belonging to an adult woman? What you must decide is do you wish to take on the role of quasi-parent to a third "daughter". If so, then you must understand the mentality with which you are dealing and act and react accordingly, using ration and being reasonable simply will not work with someone that is irrational and unreasonable. You must employ the same tactics that she uses, those which she understands, inasmuch as she can understand.

Until you see, and somewhat understand, the level of intellectual underdevelopment you are dealing with your efforts to "salvage" your marriage will not succeed and, sadly, even if you do adopt a different strategy your efforts may still end in failure since the mind of immature individuals is mostly ruled by chaos. If you do endeavor to save this relationship, I wish you strength, wisdom and good fortune.


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## *Deidre*

Upon reading more of your thread, she sounds like the classic emotional abuser. Nothing you ever do is 'good enough,' everything is your fault, she had an emotional affair, and plays the push/pull game to gain a reaction from you. 

Abuse isn't only something that happens to women, it happens to men at high rates, as well. Please stand up for yourself and don't allow your marriage to swallow your dignity and identity. I hope things get better for you.


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## crocus

So sorry.
I just want to say, this jumps out at me. Likely you are emotionally detached. She's going through some difficult times.
Support translates to "a friend".
(You can hire someone to do busy house stuff). Only a friend can be a friend.
And it sucks when they turn on you because (maybe) you deserve it.
But a tiny bit of compassion might be possible. And that might open the door.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## crocus

*Deidre* said:


> Upon reading more of your thread, she sounds like the classic emotional abuser. Nothing you ever do is 'good enough,' everything is your fault, she had an emotional affair, and plays the push/pull game to gain a reaction from you.
> 
> Abuse isn't only something that happens to women, it happens to men at high rates, as well. Please stand up for yourself and don't allow your marriage to swallow your dignity and identity. I hope things get better for you.




Perhaps she did . Then her world crumbled. Injury. Friends turned on her. He doesn't talk to her. She's reading self help books. 
She probably knows how terrible she has been. He's gone. Emotionally. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## *Deidre*

crocus said:


> Perhaps she did . Then her world crumbled. Injury. Friends turned on her. He doesn't talk to her. She's reading self help books.
> She probably knows how terrible she has been. He's gone. Emotionally.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


She needs to be remorseful to her husband, that would be the best start to healing the marriage, instead of treating him like a doormat after the EA ended.


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## crocus

*Deidre* said:


> She needs to be remorseful to her husband, that would be the best start to healing the marriage, instead of treating him like a doormat after the EA ended.




That's correct. People truly can't do "relationship " stuff when they themselves are suffering. She has a chance now to do that, and in fact she's asking for that time.

He let it go, it has to be addressed. He just might have to wait.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ChipperE

I haven't read too far into the comments so far, but me this strategy of sending you an email in the middle of the workday was meant to put you in panic mode and give her the upper hand. She wants you to feel destroyed so you will beg her not to leave. 

Sounds to me like it's time to call her bluff. Let her leave if she feels like that's what she needs. Tell her you understand and you will take time apart to examine your own life goals. It might seriously be the best thing that ever happened to you.

My husband and I went through a separation last year which started as a standoff bc we both wanted the upper hand. I didn't want the separation but accepted it as a personal challenge and exercise in self. After months of counseling we got back together and now have a much more healthy relationship without all the "crying wolf" we did in the past.


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## ScottishGirl1998

This has nothing to do with the bathroom or your daughter, they are just examples of her attitude towards you and life in general. "Straw that broke the camel's back" if you will.

Unfortunately it sounds like a case where you can't do right for doing wrong, and it is very much her way or the highway. 

If you try to speak to her privately it will only result in another argument where you get lambasted and she refuses to open up about the real issues (which maybe she doesn't even realise are there, like the one-sided relationship with "Ted"), so I'd say that marriage counseling is your only hope.


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## Jessica38

Mangoseed said:


> One of the common themes that I found... either in the books that she read, or the stuff that she'd Like/Share on Facebook and Instagram... was a very self-centred "It's all about me" philosophy. I could never buy into it, but it seems to be spreading like wildfire in terms of it being popular belief.
> 
> 
> 
> When I complained about her disappearance from our home and family life while she was pursuing herself at the gym, she said I was just trying to get in her way. So I stepped back and let go... and in doing so, I found myself feeling detached and no longer caring. I felt like it was the only way to get off the emotional roller coaster. I just had to let go and stop caring.
> 
> 
> 
> Once in a while, there would be a Facebook post praising me for "holding down the fort" at home so that she could pursue her dreams. I often rolled my eyes when I saw posts like these. It always felt like she would make these more for "likes" rather than feeding me "Words of Affirmation", which is my primary Love Language.
> 
> 
> 
> When it comes to the gym, we met half-way. I started attending the same gym and working out. Not fighting, but just general fitness. She appreciated that.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't like her drinking. I've never said it. I don't know how to let it come out without it sounding like judgement. I grew up in an alcohol free home. She grew up in a home where people treat alcohol like water.



Sadly, it's something I see among a lot of women I know on FB/Insta too. It's one thing to get in shape and be proud of that; it's another to do so in a way that disregards your commitment to your husband and family.

Honestly, you sound like a great husband. You supported her as much as possible, joined her gym to try to be a part of her world, and you know what books she reads and how she spends her time. I really don't get what her complaints are in the marriage. 

The only thing I can see is that she's playing the "you're controlling" card, which really, is laughable considering she was training in her hobby 4 hours a day with whomever she wanted. 

I'd say your problem is that your wife shows no signs of stopping her independent behavior, and given her poor boundaries with her coach, could continue to cause issues in your marriage if she doesn't learn how to be interdependent with you. 

Since you're already familiar with Dr. Harley, I'd consider calling Marriage Builders to get marital coaching with your wife. If she hears from someone other than her "controlling" husband, she might be willing to consider how her independent behavior is what is causing issues in the marriage.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## farsidejunky

crocus said:


> That's correct. People truly can't do "relationship " stuff when they themselves are suffering. She has a chance now to do that, and in fact she's asking for that time.
> 
> He let it go, it has to be addressed. He just might have to wait.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


This. Hurt people hurt people.

OP, there is a saying that a very wise poster, since banned, used to say in situations like this:

Give defiant people what they want. It rarely works out the way they think.

Give your wife all the space she wants. When she talks divorce, calmly tell her that you will be awaiting the papers, and will focus on being fair in the settlement. When she threatens divorce, tell her you will miss her, and you will likely not find someone you love as much as her, but will settle for someone who is less self centered. If she wants to harp on ways she perceives you fall short, simply hold up your hand and say, "Conversations like this are for people who are focusing on reconciliation, not divorce". Then walk away. 

Simply put, she wants to go to the brink. I am advocating that rather than trying to convince her to step on the brake, you actually push her foot harder on the gas pedal. That will truly tell you what she thinks. In essence, you will be calling her hand, and you will see if she is holding a pair of 5's or a full house.

But OP, keep this in mind: Never...Ever...Ever play brinkmanship unless you are willing to go over the brink. 

Your marriage is unhealthy. If it goes over the brink, you may even be better off. I would not fear divorce if I were you.


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## straightshooter

Sorry buddy, every time I hear the words Dr Harley or whatever his name is, I cringe. This is the same guy that would tell you to sit on your ass and compliment her as she goes to bang her boyfriend if she was or is having an affair. 

You seem pretty nonchalant about what was obviously an intense EA on her part before she got hurt. I guess you are lucky on that one because if she had not gotten injured you'd probably be writing about a full blown PA.

So now you are taking the brunt of her anger because she is not a man magnet any more. You need to tell her you will work on the marriage together or not at all and that you are not going to be a punching bag for the release of her anger at being dumped by her training boyfriend or his social circle.

Or you can play the pick me game and be a punching bag. When she believes she is about to be an injured overweight wino fighter all by herself, maybe her piss poor attitude might change.


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## Mangoseed

So, we talked.

She came to the kitchen table where I had been working. Sat on the other end and just started staring at me... one of the things she does when she wants to prompt me to start talking to her.

I ignored her for the most part. It got awkward after a while and I gave her an update on the bathroom reno that the contractor had texted me.

She said, "Ok" and then stared at me some more.

"I got your email. I'll let you know when I'm ready to talk"

Then she got up and left.

--------

After the girls went to bed, she came back to the table and stared at me some more. She asked me if I was working and I told her about the project that I've been working on. Did some small talk about work stuff. Then she started with the questions.

Her: "If we didn't have kids, would you still want to be in this marriage with me?"
Me: (after a long pause where I asked myself if I should even be entertaining her questions) Yes. We've shared a lot together. I'm not interested in just throwing that away. I would want us to try to work on things.
Her: I doubt that's true

[email protected]*&

Fell for her usual trick where she asks me a useless question, I answer, and she dismisses my answer. Decided to go back to being short and succinct with her next questions. But there really weren't any.

She actually started talking about the current book that she's reading and how it's given her some clarity and insight into her issues. The issues that she hopes to address.

She mentioned trauma... childhood trauma to be specific. She was molested by a female cousin who had been living with her while she was a kid. And raped as a teenager. She didn't bring these up while speaking, these were just things that came to mind after she mentioned childhood trauma. 

She spoke on the fact that, while she may have masked the trauma while she had the ability to be more active (fighting, working out, etc), she doesn't think that she "addressed" it. She talked about having multiple coping mechanisms, but didn't identify them. The fact that few, if any, work.

She also referred to her knee injury as a trauma. It's robbed her of her hobby and the accolades she once received as an amateur fighter. She had created such an identity with that.

She mentioned holding on to 'hurt' and not knowing why she does that.

I chose this time to just stay quiet and listen. She hates when I just listen quietly, but at this point I no longer feel like I have to pander to her preferences.

She didn't have that much to say. She looked like she was trying to choose her words carefully.

Last thing she mentioned was the importance of raising our daughters as two 'whole' individuals rather than as a broken couple.

When she first sat at the table, I was preparing for the usual. But I appreciate the fact that she made the talk more about her and what she sees as her own personal demons.

Once she was done, she took one last gulp of her wine and went up to bed.


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## Marc878

If it were me I'd move her stuff out of the bedroom and start spending some time doing what I wanted.

Perfect time for you to give her what she wants. Unless you like living the beaten down, woe is me martyred lifestyle.


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## Mangoseed

straightshooter said:


> You seem pretty nonchalant about what was obviously an intense EA on her part before she got hurt. I guess you are lucky on that one because if she had not gotten injured you'd probably be writing about a full blown PA.
> 
> So now you are taking the brunt of her anger because she is not a man magnet any more. You need to tell her you will work on the marriage together or not at all and that you are not going to be a punching bag for the release of her anger at being dumped by her training boyfriend or his social circle.


My post might make it seem like all of our problems are recent, but much of this is nothing new.

Similar problems existed even while we were dating back in university. We would break up, then get back together. Rinse, repeat.

Me taking on the brunt of her anger existed long before Ted or her body image. These are just recent events. Prior to these, there were many other things that would trigger her to lash out. These are just her most recent disappointments.

There are family-of-origin issues at play here as well. I don't want to sound like I'm making excuses for her, but just want to paint a complete picture.

There are no married women on her side of the family. Mostly single mothers who've never had a stable relationship, or others who were married and then divorced. Conflict isn't seen as something to avoid, but rather something they embrace.

All of her family members have forgiven the cousin that molested her and insist that she do so as well. Her refusal to do this (and I support her completely in this area) has made her a bit of an outcast who doesn't get invited to family functions since said cousin is usually present.

Lots of mental health problems among her siblings and other relatives. I'm certain she must've inherited some of it.

It's all just a handful. I want to find ways to support her but it's hard.


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## farsidejunky

She is provoking you for a reaction, then projecting an answer on to you to fit her need to sit in the victim chair.

Help her step on the gas pedal, unless your fear losing her more than living with someone who is emotionally abusive.

Have you read this yet?

https://www.lynneforrest.com/articles/2008/06/the-faces-of-victim/


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## Satya

Mangoseed said:


> So, we talked.
> 
> She came to the kitchen table where I had been working. Sat on the other end and just started staring at me... one of the things she does when she wants to prompt me to start talking to her.
> 
> I ignored her for the most part. It got awkward after a while and I gave her an update on the bathroom reno that the contractor had texted me.
> 
> She said, "Ok" and then stared at me some more.
> 
> "I got your email. I'll let you know when I'm ready to talk"
> 
> Then she got up and left.
> 
> --------
> 
> After the girls went to bed, she came back to the table and stared at me some more. She asked me if I was working and I told her about the project that I've been working on. Did some small talk about work stuff. Then she started with the questions.
> 
> Her: "If we didn't have kids, would you still want to be in this marriage with me?"
> Me: (after a long pause where I asked myself if I should even be entertaining her questions) Yes. We've shared a lot together. I'm not interested in just throwing that away. I would want us to try to work on things.
> Her: I doubt that's true
> 
> [email protected]*&
> 
> Fell for her usual trick where she asks me a useless question, I answer, and she dismisses my answer. Decided to go back to being short and succinct with her next questions. But there really weren't any.
> 
> She actually started talking about the current book that she's reading and how it's given her some clarity and insight into her issues. The issues that she hopes to address.
> 
> She mentioned trauma... childhood trauma to be specific. She was molested by a female cousin who had been living with her while she was a kid. And raped as a teenager. She didn't bring these up while speaking, these were just things that came to mind after she mentioned childhood trauma.
> 
> She spoke on the fact that, while she may have masked the trauma while she had the ability to be more active (fighting, working out, etc), she doesn't think that she "addressed" it. She talked about having multiple coping mechanisms, but didn't identify them. The fact that few, if any, work.
> 
> She also referred to her knee injury as a trauma. It's robbed her of her hobby and the accolades she once received as an amateur fighter. She had created such an identity with that.
> 
> She mentioned holding on to 'hurt' and not knowing why she does that.
> 
> I chose this time to just stay quiet and listen. She hates when I just listen quietly, but at this point I no longer feel like I have to pander to her preferences.
> 
> She didn't have that much to say. She looked like she was trying to choose her words carefully.
> 
> Last thing she mentioned was the importance of raising our daughters as two 'whole' individuals rather than as a broken couple.
> 
> When she first sat at the table, I was preparing for the usual. But I appreciate the fact that she made the talk more about her and what she sees as her own personal demons.
> 
> Once she was done, she took one last gulp of her wine and went up to bed.


So basically, she's not apologized for her actual cruddy behavior, but it's all about her being damaged. 

I think that was obvious given the way you described her kind of behavior. You really should have said, "so what are you doing to address your trauma?" My point is, all of throse things are HER responsibility to fix in herself. You can't do jack about them even if you wanted to. 

I'm no professional, but there's undeniable narcissism, grandiose delusions, push-pull, and black and white thinking at work here (the Easter story is but one example) and we all know what those three things are highly indicative of... 

You're really going to need to grow a bomb squad uniform from your skin, because your focus should be on learning to diffuse her tricks and tactics. And don't make the mistake of thinking she won't drag the girls down to hell with her. She's a drunk mom, I don't know any women in my 36 years on this planet who had a substance abusive mother for a role model and had a good life. They were all severely damaged, lacked resiliency, selfish, wild, bullish, threatening, and had a knack for sabotaging all romantic relationships. They were angry at the world and thought the world owed them something. Sound familiar? So, her spiel about maintaining a stable household, as if you are guilty of creating the instability, is hilarious. Add denial for any wrongdoing to my list. 

Keeping quiet will only take you so far with a person constantly looking for a fight. I agree with @farsidejunky, you'll need to give her exactly what she wants.


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## BetrayedDad

farsidejunky said:


> Help her step on the gas pedal, unless your fear losing her more than living with someone who is emotionally abusive.


Well it's obvious the answer to this is yes... He's another codependent who thinks this screwed up woman is the best he can do.

So why in the world would an abusive and clearly broken person respect him if he doesn't have an ounce of self respect for himself? 

We can give him all the advice we want but he doesn't need advice. He needs to take back the pair of balls his wife has stolen from him.

OP it might be in your best interest to call up Ted and join his gym. Maybe being around some dudes kicking ass will give you some swagger back.


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## AtMyEnd

Mangoseed said:


> One of her "friends" (more of an acquaintance) recently went through this. I was actually surprised (again, looking at their relationship from the outside). They did an in-house separation. They co-parented, but he slept in another room, so I'm sure she'll want to follow that model. I haven't checked in to see what their status is now, but I'm pretty sure they're divorcing.


This is a problem, it was for me too. During a good part of my marital problems I knew that my wife was talking to one of her closest friends about our problems. This was a big problem because her closest friends marriage is and as long as I've known her, has been ten times worse then our marriage. They often sleep in separate rooms, go out without each other frequently, hide a lot of what they really do from each other, and fight quite often. If your wife trusts and is taking advice from someone in a failing marriage it certainly isn't going to help your situation, it'll only make things harder. And unfortunately there is really no way to stop it without making yourself look like the bad guy by disliking or trying to keep her from her friends.

My advice would just be to stand your ground. Don't get confrontational about anything, don't raise your voice and don't apologize for anything. My wife also wanted me to move out for awhile at the beginning of our problems, and what I found out later was it was the idea of her friend. I told her that was not happening and that if we were going to try and work things out we would never be able to really do that if we were apart. She told me she felt the opposite so I told her that she could clean up the guest room and I'd sleep there, but not until she cleaned it up (She uses the closet in the guest room as hers and that's kind of expanded to the entire room, lol). Needless to say that never happened and everything else that she's "suggested" that I didn't agree with I just stood my ground on without getting confrontational or argumentative about and things really have changed and gotten better.


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## DustyDog

For the meeting:
1) Be prepared to listen and if needed, take notes.
2) The only reason to talk is to ask her to clarify something she said. Or possibly, if she brings up the "not shared core values", ask her to explain what her core values are that she thinks you don't share.

As for you - 
"support" - this is THE most critical element in a love relationship, per Sue Johnson. Emotional support. It doesn't mean you agree with her emotions, it means when she's having unpleasant ones, you acknowledge that they probably don't feel good. "My boss nailed my ass to the wall today at work, I feel ****ty". "Oh, geeze, that has to feel awful". BING! You're on the right path.

Sue Johnson says that what people want in a romantic relationship boils down to A.R.E.:
A = Are you there for me? When I seek emotional support, will you be there?
R = will you Respond to me when I need you? Fairly quickly? Even if you, yourself, are having struggles maybe even with me?
E = Are you Engaged, actively, in an emotional way with me?

Her book, "Hold me Tight: Seven Conversations" is an attempt to explore this, but sadly, it's hard to read...the invented conversations between people feature people with such little personality that they're hard to follow. I learned Sue Johnson's stuff by seeking YouTube interviews with her and watching.

In order to come across as supportive, you also have to express your own emotions. You feel too vulnerable to do this. The "inner work" she's talking about is that you need to figure out why you're so afraid. So what if someone else uses what you say against you? Some of the most important people in your life will do this, learn to roll with it. It is possible to selectively decide "for this moment, my wife's opinion of me does not matter"...long enough for her to let it out. This is easier said than done, so a counselor may be in order.

My wife and I are working on similar issues, although in our case, we're both wimps. Well, I should say, I'm working on similar issues, while she's hoping the troubles will go away. We did not separate, but on the other hand, her drive for solitude means we're not together much anyway.

Good luck.


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## tropicalbeachiwish

@Mangoseed 
You say that she’s drinking a bottle of wine each night? Do you think that she’s an alcoholic or a problem drinker? Read up on this; there’s a difference between the two. 

Additionally, she went from being overweight to being obsessive about the fighting/gym time. It’s common for people with addictive behaviors to shifts their addictions to something else. The addiction shifted from eating/drinking to Ted/fighting/gym rat. Then once she had the injury and wasn’t able to fight, she went back to the addictions of eating/drinking. Did the drinking ever stop when she was a gym rat? 

What exactly did you get out of the “Talk”? I read a lot of her being the victim of everything. Was the talk all about her (is she looking for empathy from you?)? And perhaps she’s self-medicating all of these issues that she doesn’t address. Is she talking about the addictions as her coping mechanisms?


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## Evinrude58

tropicalbeachiwish said:


> @Mangoseed
> You say that she’s drinking a bottle of wine each night? Do you think that she’s an alcoholic or a problem drinker? Read up on this; there’s a difference between the two.
> 
> Additionally, she went from being overweight to being obsessive about the fighting/gym time. It’s common for people with addictive behaviors to shifts their addictions to something else. The addiction shifted from eating/drinking to Ted/fighting/gym rat. Then once she had the injury and wasn’t able to fight, she went back to the addictions of eating/drinking. Did the drinking ever stop when she was a gym rat?
> 
> What exactly did you get out of the “Talk”? I read a lot of her being the victim of everything. Was the talk all about her (is she looking for empathy from you?)? And perhaps she’s self-medicating all of these issues that she doesn’t address. Is she talking about the addictions as her coping mechanisms?


Yep.

BTW, I have personally found that the greatest enemy we have to having a successful, happy relationship is OURSELVES. We really do train people to treat us a certain way.
Your wife has been training you to accept horrible behavior. You have two choices--- either don't accept it and do only what you think is fair and ignore the rest of her BS, or get out of the relationship and actually enjoy life with a person who is not a nut case like your wife. It really is your choice. You've just been choosing poorly for years.


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## Emerging Buddhist

tropicalbeachiwish said:


> @Mangoseed
> You say that she’s drinking a bottle of wine each night? Do you think that she’s an alcoholic or a problem drinker? Read up on this; there’s a difference between the two.
> 
> Additionally, she went from being overweight to being obsessive about the fighting/gym time. It’s common for people with addictive behaviors to shifts their addictions to something else. The addiction shifted from eating/drinking to Ted/fighting/gym rat. Then once she had the injury and wasn’t able to fight, she went back to the addictions of eating/drinking. Did the drinking ever stop when she was a gym rat?
> 
> What exactly did you get out of the “Talk”? I read a lot of her being the victim of everything. Was the talk all about her (is she looking for empathy from you?)? And perhaps she’s self-medicating all of these issues that she doesn’t address. Is she talking about the addictions as her coping mechanisms?


I was thinking this too about addictive behaviors... and don't forget that any MMA training will take an already confrontational person and enhance that aggression... the bottle of wine a night needs to go away for awhile so she can communicate with herself "unfiltered" for any future conversations. In fact, that would be my first boundary for any conversations to come... 48-72 hour sobriety before any relationship discussion.

We often allow ourselves to carry another's balance pole as we try the tightrope in these conversations... a response of "[email protected]*&" to an antagonizing or testing expressive is being thrown that pole six feet into the wire, so it better to not catch it and let it fall. Better yet have your "I'm sorry you feel that way" pole in your hands so even if "[email protected]*&" is felt, your hands are already full.

"I'm sorry you feel that way". 

"I see things differently".

"I'm not okay with x (whatever x may be)".

These fill your hands with successful self-control in jabs and criticisms.

Every female on her side is a tough exposure to unlearn... the standard has been set. As others pointed out, provocation is the norm, as seems separation and divorce. Her attempts at intimidation by staring and you ignoring don't really seem to be calming much. Perhaps I'm wrong and that is the best there is at the moment, but forget about her being able to lead in her role for a moment as that expectation is not ready to be counted on. 

The next time the staring begins, stop what you are doing... full stop no matter what it is and get up move next to her, take her hand and ask to breath with you... 4 seconds in, hold for 3, exhale for 7 and do this for a couple minutes. If she thinks it silly or refuses, do it yourself anyways... show her that with breath, comes calm. After you are done give her a smile and ask "now where were we" and address her last statement with your last... "I'm sorry you feel that way" and if you mean it, look into her eyes and tell her in a single statement you love her and your family but the hurting another has to stop or the family will not survive, because it won't.

Boundaries are going to need to be your new friend... but remember, they are for you and your calm first, her's will come after that. With that, I highly recommend doing some wine-replacing calming activities together... meditation, Tai chi, yoga. You may think you have no interest in them, but it is the movement your wife needs to rebuild her confidence and let go of her insecurities... plus you'll meet the right kinds of friends in these classes. 

Her role models have failed her... but that's ok, time for her to choose to create a new one for your daughters if she chooses to. Breaking the cycle can be an incredible motivation, I wish you both the strength it will take to move beyond this moment of suffering.


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## Jessica38

I agree with Emerging Buddhist- set firm boundaries with your wife while showing her compassion. She might be doing all of this as a cry for help, and may not believe you really care about her. The way she's going about this is not right, but her search for self-help and identity do signal that she's having a tough time and is not in the best place. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Yeswecan

Mangoseed said:


> So, we talked.
> 
> She came to the kitchen table where I had been working. Sat on the other end and just started staring at me... one of the things she does when she wants to prompt me to start talking to her.
> 
> I ignored her for the most part. It got awkward after a while and I gave her an update on the bathroom reno that the contractor had texted me.
> 
> She said, "Ok" and then stared at me some more.
> 
> "I got your email. I'll let you know when I'm ready to talk"
> 
> Then she got up and left.
> 
> --------
> 
> After the girls went to bed, she came back to the table and stared at me some more. She asked me if I was working and I told her about the project that I've been working on. Did some small talk about work stuff. Then she started with the questions.
> 
> Her: "If we didn't have kids, would you still want to be in this marriage with me?"
> Me: (after a long pause where I asked myself if I should even be entertaining her questions) Yes. We've shared a lot together. I'm not interested in just throwing that away. I would want us to try to work on things.
> Her: I doubt that's true
> 
> [email protected]*&
> 
> Fell for her usual trick where she asks me a useless question, I answer, and she dismisses my answer. Decided to go back to being short and succinct with her next questions. But there really weren't any.
> 
> She actually started talking about the current book that she's reading and how it's given her some clarity and insight into her issues. The issues that she hopes to address.
> 
> She mentioned trauma... childhood trauma to be specific. She was molested by a female cousin who had been living with her while she was a kid. And raped as a teenager. She didn't bring these up while speaking, these were just things that came to mind after she mentioned childhood trauma.
> 
> She spoke on the fact that, while she may have masked the trauma while she had the ability to be more active (fighting, working out, etc), she doesn't think that she "addressed" it. She talked about having multiple coping mechanisms, but didn't identify them. The fact that few, if any, work.
> 
> She also referred to her knee injury as a trauma. It's robbed her of her hobby and the accolades she once received as an amateur fighter. She had created such an identity with that.
> 
> She mentioned holding on to 'hurt' and not knowing why she does that.
> 
> I chose this time to just stay quiet and listen. She hates when I just listen quietly, but at this point I no longer feel like I have to pander to her preferences.
> 
> She didn't have that much to say. She looked like she was trying to choose her words carefully.
> 
> Last thing she mentioned was the importance of raising our daughters as two 'whole' individuals rather than as a broken couple.
> 
> When she first sat at the table, I was preparing for the usual. But I appreciate the fact that she made the talk more about her and what she sees as her own personal demons.
> 
> Once she was done, she took one last gulp of her wine and went up to bed.


Quite the cryptic talk from your W. You did well with just listening. However, when your W stated, "I doubt that is true." you should have said your sorry she feels that way but that is something she needs to deal with. Nothing worse than someone in a round about way telling another they are lying. What do you have to gain with your statement that you would continue on with the marriage if there was no kids? A new car? Door #3?

Concerning her trauma(childhood), this is something you can't help with but attempt to support your W in resolving the issue and professional help should be considered. You and everyone here is not equipped to handle such trauma. Concerning the knee injury, that loss of identity can not be laid on your lap. You can only say your sorry for her losing the ability to fight due to knee just so many times. 

Concerning coping mechanism, who gave her the suggestion of what type of mechanism? Is this something your W worked up on her own. Is tying you to the whipping post one of those mechanism? 

The only flicker of good from the conversation is being two whole individuals other than a broken couple. Your W did not lay out the terms of separation as indicated by the email that this is one the table. 

Get the wine out of the house. Your W appears depressed. Wine added does not help the situation.


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## Ynot

OP, no one has asked, but what do YOU really want? Are you happy with your current relationship? I really feel the best thing for you to do is to focus on what you want and what you need. Your story is similar to mine. I won't retell it here but I went through a lot of the same things you are going through now.

You may truly want to save your marriage. There is nothing wrong with that. But you must decide what you are willing to accept to do so.

As for your children - forget all the non-sense about kids from broken marriages. Your wife is correct in the fact that your daughters will be better off being raised by two whole human beings than by a broken couple. They will mimic what they see their parents doing when they get older. Do you want them to think it is OK to behave as your wife does? Do you want them to think it is "normal" for them the be domineering and abusive to their husbands? Or do you think it important that they understand, every action has a reaction. If you mistreat some one then you should not expect that person to want to remain in your life?

The bottom line is that YOU need to do what is best for YOU. Whatever is best for you, will be best for your children


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## 3Xnocharm

crocus said:


> Perhaps she did . Then her world crumbled. Injury. Friends turned on her. He doesn't talk to her. She's reading self help books.
> She probably knows how terrible she has been. He's gone. Emotionally.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Friends didnt "turn on her", she acted like an spoiled ***** so they dont want anything to do with her. I dont blame Ted for breaking ties with her. 

OP your wife sounds like a self absorbed, entitled princess. The fact that she cannot keep friends speaks volumes. She does not sound like a pleasant person to be around, I am trying to figure out WHY you wish to stay with her?? You cant treat people like crap, expecting them to serve you and bend to your will, and think that anyone is going to stay around for you.


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## JohnA

How are you there for her? What do you say, not what do you do? It does seem you are a bit cold in expressing yourself. Have you read the 5 love languages? 

I am not discounting the possibility of a third party at this point. If there is that is on her and her poor coping skills.


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## Idyit

There are some personality disorders that her circumstances and behavior might reflect. Similar to ruling out a third party in your marriage it may make some sense to learn a bit about NPD, BPD etc.. Knowing what you are or are not dealing with might make it easier to interact with your wife and plan for your future.

~ Passio


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## Tron

Idyit said:


> There are some personality disorders that her circumstances and behavior might reflect. Similar to ruling out a third party in your marriage it may make some sense to learn a bit about NPD, BPD etc.. Knowing what you are or are not dealing with might make it easier to interact with your wife and plan for your future.


This!

All the pre-cursors for a personality disorder are here IMO...

1. dysfunctional family of origin, i.e. divorce, mental issues
2. substance abuse and alcoholic family of origin
3. child sex abuse
4. rape
5. anger management
6. addictive personality

This is the perfect storm.

You guys have gone through a bunch of counseling already. What opinions have your counselors shared with you about your W?


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## crocus

3Xnocharm said:


> Friends didnt "turn on her", she acted like an spoiled ***** so they dont want anything to do with her. I dont blame Ted for breaking ties with her.
> 
> 
> 
> OP your wife sounds like a self absorbed, entitled princess. The fact that she cannot keep friends speaks volumes. She does not sound like a pleasant person to be around, I am trying to figure out WHY you wish to stay with her?? You cant treat people like crap, expecting them to serve you and bend to your will, and think that anyone is going to stay around for you.




Agree with boundaries. He doesn't have any. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Taxman

My wife was being coached by a girlfriend many years ago. I suspected as such, but was faced with a wall of my shortcomings. I engaged my wife in a highly granular discussion of my faults and kept bobbing and weaving to keep her off balance. Finally at one juncture, I just said, "And that is Hannah's take on this?" Without thinking she said, "Most definitely".

I had her, and started grilling her as to what her girlfriend had said. I knew her girlfriend and the woman and I had very little liking for one another. She was a ball-buster who had driven her husband out. The poor bastard did not know what he'd done, but he found himself on the street. Turned out that Hannah, wanted a "wing-girl" to go to a local cougar bar. Hannah was working non stop to sew the seeds of doubt in my wife's mind. Hannah wanted someone to attract some males. My wife is hot, Hannah is not.

Basically, I called Hannah the next day, and let her in on our discussion. My wife called her earlier to tell her that they would not be talking any further, as we had determined she was NOT a friend to the marriage. I left her with one parting thought; I am still friends with your ex, and I will start giving him as much ammunition as I can to re-open your financial agreements, and custody agreements. You have made a powerful enemy and I would advise you to mind your own business. 

We have not spoken to that despicable woman in 20 years.

OP, go home and have a long discussion with your wife. You know what she has been hung up on, now determine what her motivations are. Is it a girlfriend? Is she becoming involved with another guy? Something else is going on in the background. If she wants a separation, then draw up an agreement where both of you separate, however, neither of you can date or see others. The penalty for doing so should be punitive both financially and as far as custody is concerned. If you hit her with this agreement and she freaks, you will know there is another guy.


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## oldshirt

I am familiar with PMDD. 

My was a loving, stable person who didn't anger quickly and usually treated everyone with kindness and basic courtesy. 

In a period of a few months she turned into someone I didn't recognize and she was angry and bitter and would fly off the handle at the slightest or even no provocation. 

We had some barnburner fights that were unusual for us and one afternoon she packed up the kids and stomped out. She did bring them back to the house after they relentlessly begged, but she barricaded herself in the bedroom and I could hear her crying basically all night. This was something that had never happened before. 

The next day I got us in to see an MC and within minutes the MC was urging us to see a shrink and for her to get a full work up. 

It took seeing a few different doctors and getting some blood work and a variety of other tests done but eventually an internal med doctor diagnosed her with PMDD. Luckily it was a female doctor that was a few years older than my W and she had gone through the same thing so my W was willing to listen to her. 

The Dr got right in her face and told her that if she didn't take this seriously and didn't get prompt treatment that she WOULD end up divorced and might very well also get fired from her job and that she had even had patients that had been normal, decent people their whole lives that had even ended up in jail. 

I don't know how else to describe my wife's condition other than that she had basically been having her period 24/7 for months on end (without really telling me) and it was like she was "stuck" in PMS 24/7. 

She eventually ended up having a uterine ablation where they burned out the inner lining of her uterus and periods and such are now a thing of the past. 

In a couple months she was pretty much back to her normal, even-tempered self. But those months of PMDD were hell on earth. 

She never abused the kids and didn't get into any fistfights with anyone else, but that is mainly because I bore the brunt of her wrath. .....and I am here to tell you I will never endure that ever again. I'll pack up her car with her stuff and send on down the road myself if she ever gets back in that state. 

You do have a long history of multiple levels of issues and dysfunctions and problems. There will not likely be a singular fix to all of this. But if she does truly have PMDD, you will never have a stable, healthy relationship and never be able to reconcile a working, long term peace and healthy relationship as long as she has that condition and as long as it is left untreated.


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## oldshirt

Now in regards to your other issues, lets take a little tally of her traits and characteristics here -

- mean and b!+<hy. 

- verbally and emotionally abusive and disrespectful to you. 

- alcoholic or at least chemically abusive. 

-obcessed with her own wants, needs and endeavors to the detriment of her husband and children. 

- had an intense crush on another man and at least pursued a relationship with him if not actually scoring with him at some point. 

- disregards and is unappreciative of your support and efforts within the home and family. 

- is chronically bitter and resentful towards you without being able to present a reasonable reason why. 

- is seeking to separate from you and possibly dissolve the marriage as a means to calm her own nerves and pursue her own happiness. 

- May have a medical condition that makes rational thought and controlling her irritability darn near impossible with no mention of seeking any kind of treatment for that condition. 

- escalates the level of conflict and aggression when you try to defend your boundaries. 

- is packing on an unhealthy amount of weight and is doing nothing to control or treat it. 

Am I missing anything???????

This does not sound like a sound platform for which to try to preserve or sustain a marriage. This is fact sounds toxic and even potentially abusive and destructive towards you and the children. 

I would be very hesitant to put your full resources and energies into trying to save this marriage at this time. 

I would not encourage you to try to stay with her until she addresses her alcoholism and her PMDD and until you can ascertain whether there is another man in the picture or not.


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## oldshirt

Lemme put it this way - as long as she remains a drunkard. And as long as she continues to suffer from PMDD. and if there is another man involved ..... any efforts, energies and monies spent trying to save this marriage and trying to have a happy, healthy marriage that is mutually beneficial to the both of you will be in vain. 

You cannot reconcile and have a healthy and happy and functional marriage with a drunk or druggie. 

You cannot reconcile a healthy and happy marriage where one of the parties is involved with another person. 

And from my own experience you can not have a stable and harmonious family life and marriage with someone suffering from a riproaring case of PMDD.

If those things can all be addressed and corrected, then it may be worth trying to stay together and save the marriage. 

But if she is doing nothing to fix the alcoholism and PMDD and if she is involved with or having feelings for another man, any efforts to save this relationship will be p1$$ed away and in vain.


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## thenub

OP, you should be documenting everything, especially the wine drinking. Keep a daily journal of how much she is drinking and how it effects her moods. It may come in handy down the road. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mangoseed

You guys have left me with a lot to take in since I last logged in. Again, I appreciate the insights and the advice.

I want to make this work. Not because I'm a glutton for pain, but because I don't want to walk away without leaving every stone unturned while searching for a solution that will work for both of us.

She has her demons that she needs to address. And with the help of a marriage counselor, I'll point out all of the attributes that OldShirt and many of you pointed out about her so that she knows what it is I see in her that I dislike.

Many of you have come after me regarding my lack of boundaries and allowing her to treat me the way she does. You're right and it was something that I had in mind when I chose to change my tone with her during our last argument which brought us to this point.

Someone earlier made a reference to Mr. Nice Guy. I actually read the book (No More Mr. Nice Guy) recently and that's what convinced me to change my approach. 

I also want to say that there is (currently) no third person/party. With the way that I've had her under surveillance these past few years, she would have to have ninja-level stealth to keep that hidden.

I am ready to walk away from the marriage, but only if I have to. The thought doesn't excite me at all and I can picture her being a worse ex-wife than a wife.

She's trying to do things, but she has to change her attitude towards ME.
- She's seeing a Naturopath (who told her that she had a hormonal imbalance)
- She's inquired about counselling (I saw this in her email... again, surveillance)
- She's reading self-help books
- She's working with a personal trainer (the same one that I use)
- She seeing a chiropractor and physiotherapist to address her physical pains

I can see where she's crying out for help, but her behaviour just sucks. And when I'm the target of her attacks, I just choose to check-out.
She needs to learn how to fix her problems.

I need to learn how to stop making her think that I'll take her crap, while letting her know that I'll help her as long as she's sincere.


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## JohnA

After your last two posts I realize most of the advise you have received is wrong. In fact it is count productive. Seek out an IC with a Phd in the field of CSA and FOO issues. Her childhood has taught her one thing to her core: hit and hit hard first. Ask yourself who was she really fighting in the ring.


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## aine

Evinrude58 said:


> When a woman wants a separation and she's constantly coming up with bad things about a man that don't amount to huge problems---- There's usually an unknown 3 person in the marriage.
> That's all I'm saying.
> 
> You should: check on an attorney.
> See a doctor about anti-anxiety drugs like zoloft or zanax.
> Stop being a doormat to your own special narcissist.
> Start working on a new life. I hate to say it, but once this stuff starts, it rarely gets better.
> 
> JMO


I have to disagree with there must be an other man in the mix.

It sounds to me that his wife has been harping on you OP for years but to no avail. Her needs have not been met for a long long time, the lack of communication or poor communication has compounded the problem and your dismissal of her has pushed her to a point where she is willing to 'cut of her nose to spite her face', some women will go all the way and push you to the limits to see if you are prepared to take the crap and reach out to save things. That is what is seems like here.

IMO opinion it might do your good to read about walk away wives here and see if there is anything that rings a bell here

Get Relationship Advice and Solve Marriage Problems with Michele Weiner-Davis - Divorce Busting®

YOu said your problems run deep but have not specified what they are.
Is there any past infidelity on either side, etc? You need to tell us to have a better grasp on what is happening.


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