# Newlywed having a very difficult honeymoon



## NewlyWed2000

First off, sorry for the lengthy post. I'm sitting here in a hotel feeling really down with nobody to talk to and figured coming on here anonymously might be a good way to get some helpful advice. Maybe someone will have a suggestion that can turn this all around.

Here we are, two days into our honeymoon. Things have been tense over the last week prior to us leaving. We got married a couple of weeks ago but our honeymoon wasn’t for a couple of weeks. 

We have a good life, we have a ton in common with each other. I feel I married my bestfriend, which I had previously thought was impossible. We share many interests, we trust each other, we have our own interests, we have similar goals, beliefs, a busy social calendar with friends and family, vacations, etc. 

We have set plans together and are actively working towards them. We purchased a home a few months ago, got married and are now supposed to be enjoying our honeymoon.

What I don’t understand is the week prior to leaving she became very up and down. She would lose it over tiny things, things that had nothing to do with me half the time but then I’d get the brunt of it.

Let me state a couple of quick, important facts before continuing. We both took new jobs with considerable pay increases over the last 6 months, jumping from 90K to 170k. We purchased a home (well under our income level), bought her a car and paid for an expensive wedding on our own. The point I’m making is that we make a good income but with the recent big hits we are at a low point temporarily.

I’ll also add that I have excellent credit, I’ve not struggled with finances for close to 8 years (I did go through my young/irresponsible period in my late teens/early 20s). She however was making far less up until recently (I got her a job with a customer quadrupling her income) and really struggling. 

I mention all of this because there is a lot of financial stuff she brings up but given our current state it just doesn't make sense.

The night before we leave is when the biggest issues started occurring (3 days ago). I had a couple of expensive suits in my suitcase and it was very packed. I had set aside a third suitcase thinking that we would need some extra room for souvenirs etc while on our trip. 

Her argument was that it would cost us an additional $50 round trip to take a third bag. Ultimately we ended up having to take three regardless because cramming it all into 2 caused one to be over the 50lb weight limit and consequently making it cost the same to take three.

However, that said she wanted to stuff more into mine and just use two. I tried insisting numerous times that I wasn’t comfortable with that and that I really preferred to bring three so we had room to bring things back.

Eventually she ended up asking me why we even got married and suggesting that we get divorced. Followed by saying she understood why my prior wife left me. I was floored. Yes I had married in my early 20s, rushed into it with someone I never should have and it ultimately ended in a divorce but to throw that at me the night before we are leaving on our honeymoon?

I left the room after that and long story short ended up being the one to apologize for being picky about the suitcases and offering to help her with anything she needed. I’m not a pushover normally but since she was unwilling to apologize or come to me I couldn’t think of any other way to try to salvage this trip except to be kind to her and see if that turned things around. It eventually did.

We leave for our trip and it’s like being on thin ice…. Everything angers her and this just isn’t her. Even her father is confused/worried about her. Regardless of what happens I am the one she takes it out on.

We had an ok day our first day. The next, we spend the day at our hotel. She is working for a few days before we leave for our cruise (her company has an office here) and we go out in the evening. One thing I failed to mention is that she’s freaking about money with everything. We are fine –cutting it a little close this month as we drained reserves to pay for the house/wedding/honeymoon/car but we are ok. We paid all of our bills early this month so we wouldn’t have to worry while we were out of the country. 

During the day while she was at work, I got the hotel staff to put a fridge in our room and I went to the grocery store to pick up food for the next three days. Spending $80 (I figured $26/day for breakfast and lunch was a pretty good way to go). She comes home and gets upset that I spent that much…. Again, while we are lower with our reserves we make enough to make a dollar amount like that trivial –it doesn’t make sense that she’s blowing things up like this.

Today after work we went to this area she had been told about. We walked about, she got a blister and got pissed. Then got angry because she was wearing a jacket and hot because it was going to rain (it was 90 degrees, I have no clue why she didn’t wear a t shirt under it) –I take her to a store and we buy her a t shirt, problem solved, back to enjoying our honeymoon –or so I hoped. 

We find a nice little restaurant with a great happy hour menu. Long story short, when we are leaving they give us the bill and it’s screwed up. The menu wasn’t all English and we apparently misread some of it. It is what it is and honestly it’s not hurting us so we move on but she’s on fire again. 

Now we are walking back to the car. I should add that I suffered a traumatic brain injury from a very high speed motorcycle accident many years ago. I had massive bleeding which has permanently impacted my memory and unfortunately I forget a lot of things if I don’t write it down.

As we are walking back she suddenly says she forgot where we parked then goes on to say how she hates that she has to be the only one with a working memory and starts giving me crap about it. I actually was fairly certain where to go too but she insisted on going another direction. After a bunch of walking we find I was correct –irony but sad that it had to go that way.

We get back to the room and she’s just got this horrible attitude so I just leave her be.

I notice however that the hotel she paid for a few months ago, apparently she hadn’t actually paid for. We had started a joint account back then and the money was there so I know it was just an honest mistake but she starts going nuts, telling me how irresponsible I am, how she’ll live on her dad’s couch again and how I’m running us into the dirt. Again I have had zero issues financially for many many years. 

I look at her, suggest we not toss blame at each other and tell her I’ll figure it out. 5 minutes later I sorted everything out. We are in great shape with plenty and nothing financially to stress about (had to make some transfers between accounts etc). Hoping we can just get back to trying to enjoy our honeymoon. 

Instead she berates me saying again how irresponsible I am, how I’m screwing everything up etc which is ironic because again I’ve been the one that’s been in great fiscal shape for so long while she made poor decisions that ran her into the ground and she’s in a better financial position than she has ever been in her life now.

I just look at her and go look, I don’t know what to do. The issue is gone, I broke it down in excel to show her everything. We are ok, you can relax and enjoy now. Lets stop focusing on this stuff and get back to celebrating our marriage together. I kept asking her if we can just try and turn this around etc.

She ultimately starts telling me she’ll just leave, have her dad pick her up back home, she’ll take a taxi to the airport…. WHAT?!?!?!?

She leave the room but without her stuff so I knew she wasn’t actually going to leave. But seriously. She came back and I even tried to hug her just to turn things around but nothing. 

I just don’t know what to do at this point. Nothing I do makes her happy since we’ve left –except for her one good day the first day out here. She’s constantly angry about something, constantly digging into me and saying hurtful things. 

I’m getting really sad, here I am wanting to celebrate our honeymoon, being married to this woman I love so much but I feel like I am the only one trying. I’m the only one showing any kind of intimacy (and no I’m not referring to physical things –to be frank I really am not interested in being physical with the way she is being anyway).

We have 12 more days to go and I’m just hoping somehow this is going to turn around. I want to reflect on these days as happy memories for many years to come and right now it’s just not happening.

Does anyone have any suggestions or ideas?


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## tom67

Sorry you are here. Was she like this before or has it gotten progressively worse. Maybe talk to her parents but I would consider an annulment.


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## bandit.45

You married an abuser. An emotional abuser.

Sorry my friend but it won't ever get better. No matter how hard you try. 

Go to the county courthouse and get annulment paperwork and fill it out. You don't need a lawyer. Get away from this freak before you get her pregnant and get trapped in a miserable marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NewlyWed2000

tom67 said:


> Sorry you are here. Was she like this before or has it gotten progressively worse. Maybe talk to her parents but I would consider an annulment.


Hi Tom,

Some bad stuff popped up a few months before we got married. We went to her counselor together who she's been seeing all her life.

The feedback I've gotten from her pastor, father and counselor (she's very close to all of them) is that this is very abnormal.

She has gone through some very hard stuff in the last few years. Lost her mother, was sexually assaulted, and she's been abused in past relationships physically.

We had a period of about two months that was VERY bad and then it calmed down. Now things are getting negative again and I'm just running out of ideas on what to do. 

She's done some incredible things, made huge life sacrifices for others so I know she has a good heart (as an example, she left in her final year of college at a top 10 university where she was on the dean's list and also a soloist in the choir (they are the #1 vocal university in the US) to sit on a couch and take care of her mother day in and out for 9 months while she watched her die -a mother who treated her horribly growing up. 

Anyone who can make a sacrifice like that has a huge heart.there is just something going on and I don't know what it is.


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## EleGirl

So her behavior is abnormal according to you and her father. How much time has she spent with her father in recent years?

She seems very worried about money. My bet is that something is going on financially that she has not told you. Maybe she has some large bills that you do not know about. Or, could she have lost her job, even in the last day or so at the start of the trip?

Is she on any medications?


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## RClawson

NW,

Sorry you are here. Understand your frustration and concern. This sounds like something deeply emotional that has to do with one of the other concerns you brought up regarding past abuse and losing her Mom. You cannot be to passive here or I believe she will dig in. 

I would calmly let her know that you realize something is amiss and you are willing to work with her to help her through it but if the next twelve days are going to be like the beginning of the honeymoon then you might as well just pack it in and return home so you can help her get a handle on things emotionally.

I wish you luck and commend you for handling this the way you have thus far.


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## chillymorn

bandit.45 said:


> You married an abuser. An emotional abuser.
> 
> Sorry my friend but it won't ever get better. No matter how hard you try.
> 
> Go to the county courthouse and get annulment paperwork and fill it out. You don't need a lawyer. Get away from this freak before you get her pregnant and get trapped in a miserable marriage.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree: x 1000


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## Anon Pink

What has she been diagnosed with and what meds does she currently take.

My speculation, Bi-polar disorder and she's off her meds.


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## Uptown

Newly, welcome to the TAM forum. I'm so sorry to hear that you find yourself in such a painful situation -- during what should be a joyous event, your honeymoon.


NewlyWed2000 said:


> We went to her counselor together who she's been seeing all her life....There is just something going on and I don't know what it is.


You are describing a woman who has great difficulty controlling her emotions. If this were simply a short-term problem, I would suggest you look for warning signs of drug abuse, recent hormone change (e.g., pregnancy), or a head injury -- all of which can cause a temporary loss of emotional control. You seem to be describing a long-term problem, however, because your W has been seeing a counselor _"all her life"_ and you've encountered it before (_"two months that was VERY bad"_).

For such a long-term problem, the two common causes are bipolar disorder (as AnonPink suggests) and BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). Perhaps AnonPink is correct about the bipolar. IMO, however, what you are describing seems much closer to BPD traits. 

Specifically, the behaviors you describe -- verbal abuse, temper tantrums typically lasting several hours, inability to trust, black-white thinking, persistent anger, and lack of impulse control -- are some of the classic traits of BPD, which my exW has. Of course, you cannot determine whether your W's BPD traits are so severe that they meet 100% of the diagnostic guidelines for having full-blown BPD. Only professionals can make a diagnosis. 

You nonetheless are capable of spotting the red flags for BPD. There is nothing subtle about strong occurrences of traits such as always being "The Victim," verbal abuse, and temper tantrums. I therefore suggest you read about BPD traits to see if most sound very familiar.

I caution that every adult on the planet occasionally exhibits all of the BPD traits, albeit at a low level if the person is healthy. This is why BPD is said to be a "spectrum disorder," which means everyone has the traits to some degree. At issue, then, is not whether your W has BPD traits. Of course she does. We all do.

Rather, at issue is whether she has most BPD traits at a strong level. Not having met her, I cannot know the answer to that question. I nonetheless believe you are capable of spotting any red flags that exist if you take time to learn the warning signs.


> I’m the only one showing any kind of intimacy.


BPDers have such fragile egos that, although they crave intimacy like everyone else, they cannot handle it for very long without feeling engulfed and suffocated. This would not be apparent during the courtship period because the BPDer's infatuation over you convinces her that you are her savior -- the perfect man -- who poses no threat to her two great fears: abandonment and engulfment. Yet, when the infatuation evaporates (typically after 3 to 6 months), those two fears return and you will start triggering the two fears, resulting in a release of her anger.

This is why, with BPDers (i.e., those having strong traits), it is common for the courtship period to be filled with intense passion and intimacy, all of which can go off a cliff soon after the wedding, if not before. My honeymoon in Hawaii with my BPDer exW, for example, had some of the problems you are now describing.


> She’s constantly angry about something, constantly digging into me and saying hurtful things.


Bipolar sufferers are not "constantly angry." Indeed, they generally are not angry people. BPDers, however, always carry enormous anger, hurt, and shame inside. That anger and hurt originates in childhood -- typically before the age of five -- and is always there inside the person. This is why you don't have to do a thing to CREATE the anger. Rather, you only have to say or do some minor thing to TRIGGER the anger that is already there.


> She has gone through some very hard stuff in the last few years. Lost her mother, was sexually assaulted, and she's been abused in past relationships physically.


Sexual and physical assaults in adulthood can result in PTSD (Post Traumatic Stress Disorder). What is usually far more damaging, however, is when the abuse occurs before age 5 -- because it then can cause the child's emotional development to freeze at that young age. The result is that you will see a woman -- having the intelligence, education, and body strength of a full grown adult -- who nonetheless must rely on the primitive ego defenses of a young child. These include temper tantrums, projection, denial, magical thinking, and black-white thinking.


> We had a period of about two months that was VERY bad and then it calmed down.


Although there are exceptions, bipolar mood changes typically take several weeks to develop and then last for several weeks before fading away. The mood changes are slow to develop and slow to leave because they are caused by gradual changes in body chemistry. 

In contrast, BPD mood changes arise from minor events that trigger the BPDer's fear of abandonment or engulfment. Being event triggered, BPD mood changes typically occur in less than a minute -- often in just ten seconds. You seem to be describing this kind of event-triggered temper tantrums and hissy fits -- e.g., the anger triggered by her forgetting where the car was parked and triggered again by a mistaken restaurant bill.


> She ultimately starts telling me she’ll just leave, have her dad pick her up back home, she’ll take a taxi to the airport…. WHAT?!?!?!?


My BPDer exW ruined most of our vacations. With BPDers, the very WORST fights usually occur during (or immediately after) the very BEST of times. The main reason is that, because a BPDer has only a fragile sense of who she is, she can tolerate intimacy for only a short time. If the intimacy persists, she starts to feel engulfed and suffocated by your strong personality. It is a frightening feeling because she feels like she is losing herself into your personality -- as though she is evaporating into thin air. That is, BPDers have such weak egos they have virtually no sense of having personal boundaries.

The result is that, immediately following a great weekend or intimate evening, a BPDer often will create an argument -- out of thin air -- so as to push you away, giving her breathing space. On a wonderful vacation, of course, she cannot get away from you. My exW, for example, usually would sabotage our expensive vacations by the third or fourth day -- and sometimes this happened on the second day. On one trip to the Midwest, my exW flew into a rage on the very day we arrived there. She had overheard me saying some trivial thing to my sister. She got so angry that she called a friend to come to get her and drive her to the airport.


> She ended up asking me why we even got married and suggesting that we get divorced. Followed by saying she understood why my prior wife left me. I was floored.


This behavior -- where a disagreement over whether to take a third suitcase quickly escalated to her suggesting divorce -- is called "black-white thinking" -- which is a BPD trait. BPDers never learned how to integrate the good and bad apsects of their own personalities. They therefore cannot tolerate having strong mixed feelings, ambiguities, uncertainties, or any other grey areas of interpersonal relationships. 

BPDers therefore categorize everyone as "all good" or "all bad" -- and will recategorize someone from one polar extreme to the other, in just a few seconds, based solely on a minor comment or infraction. This is why a BPDer can flip, in ten seconds, from adoring you to devaluing you, even questioning whether she should have married you. And, a few hours or days or weeks later, she can flip back just as quickly.


> She's done some incredible things, made huge life sacrifices for others so I know she has a good heart.


Generally, both bipolar sufferers and BPDers are GOOD people. And many of them are wonderful, caring individuals. Indeed, two of the world's most beloved women -- Marilyn Monroe and Princess Diana -- both had full-blown BPD, if their biographers are correct. The BPDer's problem is not being BAD but, rather, emotionally UNSTABLE.


> Does anyone have any suggestions or ideas?


I suggest that, as soon as you return home, you see a clinical psychologist -- for a visit or two all by yourself -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is you are dealing with. I also suggest that, while you're waiting for an appointment, you look at my description of 12 differences I've found in the behaviors of BPDers (e.g., my exW) and bipolar sufferers (e.g., my foster son). This list of 12 differences is in my post at Confused. 

If my description of BPD traits in that post rings a bell, I suggest you read my more detailed description of such behaviors at My list of hell!. If you like, I would be glad to discuss it with you and point you to good online resources. Take care, Newly.


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## Uptown

> ...a mother who treated her horribly growing up.


Newly, I forgot to mention that, unlike bipolar, BPD is strongly associated with childhood abuse (e.g., emotionally unavailable mother) or abandonment. A recent survey (pub. 2008) found that 70% of BPDers report they had been abandoned or abused in childhood. Although most abused children do not develop BPD, the abuse greatly raises their risk for doing so.


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## 3Xnocharm

This is so terribly sad to read!  She may very well have a disorder, but you need to let her know, in no uncertain terms, that threats of leaving and divorce are dealbreakers. Tell her the next time those words come out, that you expect her to follow through and get out, this is non-negotiable. This is intolerable behavior.


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## Ellie5

NW, so sorry to hear about what should be a very happy time for you both.

You sound like such a caring and loving guy - she's pushing you away and/or testing you to see how far she can push before you leave. She's been emotionally and physically abused and yet here, right now, she has someone who's offering genuine love - if she has deep rooted self-loathing she will push you.

It's going to take a huge amount of strength and love from you if you choose to help her - yet just like 3xnocharm states, you have your own boundaries and certain behaviours / language are unacceptable. Respect is a difficult one to get back once lost. You can still love someone and stand your ground at the same time.

No one can tell you what the right thing to do is, trusting your instincts is a good start.


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## NewlyWed2000

Thank you all for the very helpful posts -especially you Uptown. I wasn't sure what to expect posting something like this on the internet but it's a pleasant surprise.

That's a lot to process but I think I will bring it up with her counselor privately (we have lines of communication) when we return.

Regarding respect and standing up for yourself -I rarely let a woman walk over me (to be clear I give them the same respect). The way I always put it with women I've dated is that I won't dominate you but I expect the same -if this doesn't occur it will cause serious conflict.

With that said, I am married now and I'm trying very hard to make this honeymoon a good one. She's gone through so much in the last few years I just want her to enjoy being away (she hasn't had a vacation in 4 years). I want her to forget all the things that stress her for a few weeks and just love life, celebrate our marriage and create some lifetime memories together.

Now normally if she comes at me and is totally in the wrong I'll typically (in a calm voice) state that I'm not ok being spoken to like that and then I'll go to another room and wait for things to calm down. 75% of the time she will come in and apologize later, the other 25% she just stays mad for a day or two. She does acknowledge fairly often that she's out of line or will say she's sorry for treating me so poorly so I know she does feel guilty fairly often which does give me hope. 

To be clear, I'm not suggesting i'm perfect at all either, I make mistakes and apologize for them. However I'm pretty good at managing my anger and removing myself when I need to. The rare occasion I let something mean slip I make a point to apologize profusely.

I just need some way to turn this honeymoon around. It's going to be very depressing to look back at this time being full of conflict and hurt if it isn't turned around.


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## Ellie5

She's a very lucky woman NW. I wouldn't put all the responsibility of turning things around on you though - she's the one who's stomped out in a huff so give her the space to make a few moves before responding. It could all be hot air (yet meanwhile makes you anxious and keen to right the situation - all very unfair).

You guys are often *fixers* (I mean that in a kind way), and you sound incredibly devoted to this woman which is wonderful - perhaps somewhere deep inside she might not feel she deserves you - and therefore is unconsciously repelled by your zealous intentions to always make things right.  So don't. Just be there and wait. Ride out the storm without stirring it. Resist the desire to question, and let her do the talking. Step back and take no action at all. 

You can let her know you're there and you'd really like the pair of you to make the most of the rest of the time you have on honeymoon, but then leave it. Not forcing a resolution immediately gives you both a bit of breathing space.

Best of luck NW.


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## bandit.45

Or...she is an abuser who played nice to get you to marry her. Now that she has you in her clutches you are hers to do with what she wants. 

Don't become an abuse victim. If things don't dramatically improve over the next few weeks, look into to an annulment.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NewlyWed2000

bandit.45 said:


> Or...she is an abuser who played nice to get you to marry her. Now that she has you in her clutches you are hers to do with what she wants.
> 
> Don't become an abuse victim. If things don't dramatically improve over the next few weeks, look into to an annulment.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hey Bandit,

Annulments are not even an option in my state.

She has been physically abusive (that was part of the 2 month thing I mentioned) but it's gone away after some counseling together.

I honestly just think she's ill or something. Im a very dedicated person too so the thought of just leaving isn't something I even want to consider right now. She does have a lot of wonderful qualities and I'm just praying this is temporary and that we can get through this.


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## Uptown

NewlyWed2000 said:


> That's a lot to process but I think I will bring it up with her counselor privately (we have lines of communication) when we return.


Newly, seeking his professional opinion seems prudent, especially if he has a PhD (i.e., is a psychologist or psychiatrist). Yet, even if your W has been diagnosed ahs having full-blown BPD, it is unlikely HER therapist will tell you. It is well known -- both inside and outside the psychiatric community -- that therapists generally are loath to tell a high functioning BPDer (much less tell her H) the name of her disorder. This information is routinely withheld to protect the BPDer because it generally is not in her best interests to be told. I discuss the reasons for this withholding of information in my post at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...-official-im-getting-divorced.html#post811909. 

Please remember that her therapist is _not your friend_. He is ethically bound to protect her best interests, not yours. Hence, if you determine that she is exhibiting strong BPD traits, relying on her _therapist_ for candid advice during the marriage would be as foolish as relying on her _attorney_ for candid advice during the divorce. It is important to seek a second opinion from a professional who has not seen or treated your W and, thus, is ethically bound to protect YOUR best interests, not hers.


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## NewlyWed2000

Ellie5 said:


> She's a very lucky woman NW. I wouldn't put all the responsibility of turning things around on you though - she's the one who's stomped out in a huff so give her the space to make a few moves before responding. It could all be hot air (yet meanwhile makes you anxious and keen to right the situation - all very unfair).
> 
> You guys are often *fixers* (I mean that in a kind way), and you sound incredibly devoted to this woman which is wonderful - perhaps somewhere deep inside she might not feel she deserves you - and therefore is unconsciously repelled by your zealous intentions to always make things right. So don't. Just be there and wait. Ride out the storm without stirring it. Resist the desire to question, and let her do the talking. Step back and take no action at all.
> 
> You can let her know you're there and you'd really like the pair of you to make the most of the rest of the time you have on honeymoon, but then leave it. Not forcing a resolution immediately gives you both a bit of breathing space.
> 
> Best of luck NW.



Thanks Ellie.

She's been at work today and will be home soon -hopefully in better spirits (crossing my fingers).

I sent her this text today though:

I love you, I want to celebrate this honeymoon together, I was to see you happy. You deserve this break and I want you to enjoy it. Lets not talk finances anymore, I'll keep a close eye on them and make sure everything is ok. You just try to focus on enjoying yourself and knowing the finances will be taken care of. I don't know how you are feeling tonight, but if you would like to do something when you get back, let me know now and i will try and find something interesting to go see (sight seeing).

**

I'll just relax when she gets back and we will see what happens.

I also sent her counselor a huge email regarding what uptown mentioned.


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## NewlyWed2000

Uptown said:


> Newly, seeking his professional opinion seems prudent, especially if he has a PhD (i.e., is a psychologist or psychiatrist). Yet, even if your W has been diagnosed ahs having full-blown BPD, it is unlikely HER therapist will tell you. It is well known -- both inside and outside the psychiatric community -- that therapists generally are loath to tell a high functioning BPDer (much less tell her H) the name of her disorder. This information is routinely withheld to protect the BPDer because it generally is not in her best interests to be told. I discuss the reasons for this withholding of information in my post at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...-official-im-getting-divorced.html#post811909.
> 
> Please remember that her therapist is _not your friend_. He is ethically bound to protect her best interests, not yours. Hence, if you determine that she is exhibiting strong BPD traits, relying on her _therapist_ for candid advice during the marriage would be as foolish as relying on her _attorney_ for candid advice during the divorce. It is important to seek a second opinion from a professional who has not seen or treated your W and, thus, is ethically bound to protect YOUR best interests, not hers.


Thanks Uptown, will do!


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## A Bit Much

NewlyWed2000 said:


> Hey Bandit,
> 
> Annulments are not even an option in my state.
> 
> *She has been physically abusive (that was part of the 2 month thing I mentioned) but it's gone away after some counseling together.*
> 
> I honestly just think she's ill or something. Im a very dedicated person too so the thought of just leaving isn't something I even want to consider right now. She does have a lot of wonderful qualities and I'm just praying this is temporary and that we can get through this.


Based on her behavior as of late I wouldn't assume it's just 'gone away'. She's still very angry and lashing out at you. It may not be physical, but her past behavior indicates that it CAN go there if shes angry enough.

Is her job triggering her? Is she on meds? Should she be?


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## PBear

How long did you two date before getting married?

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Uptown

NewlyWed2000 said:


> She has been physically abusive (that was part of the 2 month thing I mentioned) but it's gone away after some counseling together.


"Gone away," yes, but for how long? I share ABitMuch's skepticism. Significantly, physical abuse of one's partner or spouse is another behavior that is strongly associated with BPD traits. 

For example, a 1993 Canadian study of men battering their wives found that about half of them had BPD. Roger Melton describes those study results at Romeo's Bleeding - When Mr. Right Turns Out To Be Mr. Wrong -- Health & Wellness -- Sott.net. Similarly, a 2009 study of male wife-batterers found that 40% of them were associated with BPD and Antisocial PD -- and another 35% had "adult anxious attachment orientation," which is one of the BPD traits. See ingentaconnect A Latent Classification of Male Batterers.


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## mablenc

Since you have been celebrating lately, is she on any medication and drinking alcohol? 

You need to think about your future. if like others have pointed out has a mental illness, do you think she will be open to getting help?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tryingtobebetter

NewlyWed2000 said:


> Thank you all for the very helpful posts -especially you Uptown. I wasn't sure what to expect posting something like this on the internet but it's a pleasant surprise.
> 
> That's a lot to process but I think I will bring it up with her counselor privately (we have lines of communication) when we return.
> 
> Regarding respect and standing up for yourself -I rarely let a woman walk over me (to be clear I give them the same respect). The way I always put it with women I've dated is that I won't dominate you but I expect the same -if this doesn't occur it will cause serious conflict.
> 
> With that said, I am married now and I'm trying very hard to make this honeymoon a good one. She's gone through so much in the last few years I just want her to enjoy being away (she hasn't had a vacation in 4 years). I want her to forget all the things that stress her for a few weeks and just love life, celebrate our marriage and create some lifetime memories together.
> 
> Now normally if she comes at me and is totally in the wrong I'll typically (in a calm voice) state that I'm not ok being spoken to like that and then I'll go to another room and wait for things to calm down. 75% of the time she will come in and apologize later, the other 25% she just stays mad for a day or two. She does acknowledge fairly often that she's out of line or will say she's sorry for treating me so poorly so I know she does feel guilty fairly often which does give me hope.
> 
> To be clear, I'm not suggesting i'm perfect at all either, I make mistakes and apologize for them. However I'm pretty good at managing my anger and removing myself when I need to. The rare occasion I let something mean slip I make a point to apologize profusely.
> 
> I just need some way to turn this honeymoon around. It's going to be very depressing to look back at this time being full of conflict and hurt if it isn't turned around.


OP - Uptown is one of the stars on this forum and strikes me as a very wise head on these sorts of matters.

Good luck


----------



## Ellie5

NewlyWed2000 said:


> I sent her this text today though:
> 
> I love you, I want to celebrate this honeymoon together, I was to see you happy. You deserve this break and I want you to enjoy it. Lets not talk finances anymore, I'll keep a close eye on them and make sure everything is ok. You just try to focus on enjoying yourself and knowing the finances will be taken care of. I don't know how you are feeling tonight, but if you would like to do something when you get back, let me know now and i will try and find something interesting to go see (sight seeing).
> 
> **
> 
> I'll just relax when she gets back and we will see what happens.


NW, you don't have a twin brother do you?  Seriously, this is super lovely, I would melt if that were sent to me (and feel really bad for being a cow bag in the process). I hope she knows what she has with you :smthumbup:


----------



## Anon Pink

Uptown's spotted another one! I think BPD too. I locked onto the money fixation and skipped the history of chronic abuse.

Odd though...no mention of meds by OP, so it must be an unofficial BPD dx afterall.

How do you do that uptown? How do you find these threads?


----------



## appletree

I don't think you can expect improvements in some weeks or so. These problems are difficult and lengthy to turn around.
Either you separate or you must have a lot of patience and you will have to pay a lot money for psychologists. 
I think it is also helpful to look at your own problems. Why were you attracted to a woman with a trailerload of problems?
You can read up how to do mindfulness meditation or go to the next meditation center while you are in your honeymoon. Invite your wife to participate.


----------



## Uptown

Anon Pink said:


> Uptown's spotted another one! I think BPD too.....How do you do that uptown? How do you find these threads?


Pink, thanks for the kind words but you give me way too much credit. I never am able to spot BPD, i.e., spot the disorder itself. Only a professional can do that. Instead, I simply spot threads describing most of the classic BPD traits. That is not difficult because there is a world of difference between spotting the traits and diagnosing the full-blown disorder.

As I noted earlier, I cannot diagnose the W's issues in this thread. Indeed, without meeting her, I cannot even determine whether her BPD traits are strong. My objective, then, is to simply encourage the OP to learn about BPD traits so he can judge, for himself, whether his W is exhibiting most BPD traits at a strong level. 

My view -- like that of hundreds of medical centers posting BPD information on their websites -- is that the lay public is perfectly capable of spotting the warning signs for anyone having strong BPD traits. There is nothing subtle about temper tantrums, lack of impulse control, and verbal (and physical) abuse.


----------



## appletree

Meanwhile you could too watching the talks of Ajahn Brahm on youtube with her, they are not especially on your topic, but very soothing, it might be capable to temper her anger a bit.


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## tom67

mablenc said:


> Since you have been celebrating lately, is she on any medication and drinking alcohol?
> 
> You need to think about your future. if like others have pointed out has a mental illness, do you think she will be open to getting help?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Please think about this and listen to Uptown he knows of what he speaks. Whatever her affliction is, think about how you can live with this situation for years. In my opinion this is a no win situation I wish I was wrong.


----------



## wise

She sounds like trouble man.

Do you really want to spend god knows how much time trying to fix her issues? It's obvious that she has zero respect for you, sadly. She is selfish but that's because of her past. You are being nice and responsible when she's use to abusive and irresponsible. She just doesn't know how to treat you like a woman without this excessive amount of baggage would. 

I completely agree that her past plays a role in this mess and it will never go away. She will go through cycles until you finally call it quits. She will run you into the ground and if you stick around long enough - you will see how old it gets.


----------



## tom67

Uptown said:


> Pink, thanks for the kind words but you give me way too much credit. I never am able to spot BPD, i.e., spot the disorder itself. Only a professional can do that. Instead, I simply spot threads describing most of the classic BPD traits. That is not difficult because there is a world of difference between spotting the traits and diagnosing the full-blown disorder.
> 
> As I noted earlier, I cannot diagnose the W's issues in this thread. Indeed, without meeting her, I cannot even determine whether her BPD traits are strong. My objective, then, is to simply encourage the OP to learn about BPD traits so he can judge, for himself, whether his W is exhibiting most BPD traits at a strong level.
> 
> My view -- like that of hundreds of medical centers posting BPD information on their websites -- is that the lay public is perfectly capable of spotting the warning signs for anyone having strong BPD traits. There is nothing subtle about temper tantrums, lack of impulse control, and verbal (and physical) abuse.


:iagree: We can call it this or that but this is not normal or healthy, period. She can only help herself...most don't.


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## Jasel

Ya reading that I immediately thiught BPD.


----------



## Anon Pink

Uptown said:


> Pink, thanks for the kind words but you give me way too much credit. I never am able to spot BPD, i.e., spot the disorder itself. Only a professional can do that. *Instead, I simply spot threads describing most of the classic BPD traits. * That is not difficult because there is a world of difference between spotting the traits and diagnosing the full-blown disorder.
> 
> As I noted earlier, I cannot diagnose the W's issues in this thread. Indeed, without meeting her, I cannot even determine whether her BPD traits are strong. My objective, then, is to simply encourage the OP to learn about BPD traits so he can judge, for himself, whether his W is exhibiting most BPD traits at a strong level.
> 
> My view -- like that of hundreds of medical centers posting BPD information on their websites -- is that the lay public is perfectly capable of spotting the warning signs for anyone having strong BPD traits. There is nothing subtle about temper tantrums, lack of impulse control, and verbal (and physical) abuse.


The bolded part, that's what I wanted to know. How do you always spot the BPD threads? I was imagining you have certain buzz words you enter into a search criteria and a list of threads pops up, you skim through each OP only stopping for the ones that show a marked similarity in diagnostic criteria? 

Cause it would be just too tedious to read through every new OP checking for BPD....

No one can diagnose or treat a mental illness in a public forum. Information contained in this thread is not to be confused with qualified medical advice, but meant as a source of information from which you might further explore.

I feel so bad for this OP. He has been totally snowed by his wife's father and therapist. Of course they know she had BPD!


----------



## PHTlump

NewlyWed2000 said:


> I honestly just think she's ill or something. Im a very dedicated person too so the thought of just leaving isn't something I even want to consider right now. She does have a lot of wonderful qualities and I'm just praying this is temporary and that we can get through this.


I hope you're right. Hopefully, she is having a hard time adjusting to the stress of her life changing and she's taking it out on you. However, there is a very high likelihood that this is the absolute pinnacle of your marriage. As Jack Nicholson said, "What if this is as good as it gets?" For most people, their honeymoon is the most in love they ever are. It's the nicest to each other that they ever are. It's the time they fight the least. There is a good chance that, in a few decades, you will look back on your honeymoon, with her giving you the stink eye and withholding sex, as the salad days of your marriage.


----------



## Hicks

It's not your job to diagnose her.

Her behavior is normal for wives. Wives emotions are all over the place and frequently go in a negative direction. And, while they are struggling they see this guy there (the husband) to blame it all on. This is a common dynamic.

Your job as a husband is to learn how not to be the idiot that gets blamed for all her problems.

Most husbands go about this entirely wrong. They think, wow, she is stressed, unhappy, not horny etc... So I better act as nice as possible to calm her down. I will agree with her. I better absorb all of this stress for her (your text is an example of how you are trying this technicque). Have you ever heard the expression "yes dear", or "happy wife, happy life"? 

I'm telling you as a newlywed what is really important and will help you in your marriage. If your wife threatens divorce, what you do is tell her that she should hop on a plane and get the hell out. Then start packing her crap and calling the front desk for a taxi. 

If she talks to you like you are an idiot, tell her to stop speaking to you that way and go do your own thing. Simply NEVER allow yourself to be spoken to like you are incompetent. But when you make mistakes in life, admit to them. In other words she should be free to speak her mind, and you will consider her opinoin, but only if she speaks to you with respect.

Never try to appease the emotional beast. You are currently afraid of ruining your honeymoon. Fear. That's a killer. What will you be afraid of next? Money? Kids? Losing the house? Operating based on all of these fears will cause you to have a very unappy marriage.


----------



## Uptown

Anon Pink said:


> The bolded part, that's what I wanted to know. How do you always spot the BPD threads?


Sorry, Pink. I misunderstood and ended up providing a lengthy answer to a question you didn't ask. I typically read at least part of more than 50 threads for each one that I actually respond to. 

Thankfully, there are a number of members like you who do much of this same filtering/advising work because, like me, you are so familiar with BPD warning signs. I try to support your efforts by simply searching on "BPD." This is how I found your 3/21/13 post telling WoodChuck -- correctly IMO -- that he was not describing a persistent pattern of BPD traits (see http://talkaboutmarriage.com/physical-mental-health-issues/69831-bpd.html#post1550470).


----------



## EleGirl

Hicks said:


> It's not your job to diagnose her.
> 
> Her behavior is normal for wives. Wives emotions are all over the place and frequently go in a negative direction. And, while they are struggling they see this guy there (the husband) to blame it all on. This is a common dynamic.
> 
> Your job as a husband is to learn how not to be the idiot that gets blamed for all her problems.
> 
> Most husbands go about this entirely wrong. They think, wow, she is stressed, unhappy, not horny etc... So I better act as nice as possible to calm her down. I will agree with her. I better absorb all of this stress for her (your text is an example of how you are trying this technicque). Have you ever heard the expression "yes dear", or "happy wife, happy life"?
> 
> I'm telling you as a newlywed what is really important and will help you in your marriage. If your wife threatens divorce, what you do is tell her that she should hop on a plane and get the hell out. Then start packing her crap and calling the front desk for a taxi.
> 
> If she talks to you like you are an idiot, tell her to stop speaking to you that way and go do your own thing. Simply NEVER allow yourself to be spoken to like you are incompetent. But when you make mistakes in life, admit to them. In other words she should be free to speak her mind, and you will consider her opinoin, but only if she speaks to you with respect.
> 
> Never try to appease the emotional beast. You are currently afraid of ruining your honeymoon. Fear. That's a killer. What will you be afraid of next? Money? Kids? Losing the house? Operating based on all of these fears will cause you to have a very unappy marriage.


:iagree: But have one thing to add. Some men out in the same manner that his wife is acting out. This is not a female trait, it's a thing that some humans do.

Your suggestion in how to handle it is right on, whether it's a wife or husband acting out in this manner.

I'm saying this because there will be a lot of women, myself included, who have experienced exactly this kind of behavior from their husbands and so I'm encouraging them to listen to your approach as well.


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## yours4ever

for a person who apologized when she knew she was wrong, I'd say she is NOT an abuser.

She was abused and had really bad life experience, so of course she needs to learn to trust that no matter what, she is worth to be loved.

I had a had time since young in believing that people like being around me, that I can be loved..and so my relationships with others are only on thr surface, there is rarely conflict..(except with my family members) ..and now that I am married, I am learning that good loyal, dedicated husbands like mine exist. 

That said, it doesn't mean my husband let me step all over him.. He has boundaries. But no matter what, we always get back forgiven and forgave. 

Be patient, and all the best. After hardship there will be ease.


Love her again and again, but maintain boundaries at all times. Respect yourself and keep clear communication going.


----------



## NewlyWed2000

Hicks said:


> It's not your job to diagnose her.
> 
> Her behavior is normal for wives. Wives emotions are all over the place and frequently go in a negative direction. And, while they are struggling they see this guy there (the husband) to blame it all on. This is a common dynamic.
> 
> Your job as a husband is to learn how not to be the idiot that gets blamed for all her problems.
> 
> Most husbands go about this entirely wrong. They think, wow, she is stressed, unhappy, not horny etc... So I better act as nice as possible to calm her down. I will agree with her. I better absorb all of this stress for her (your text is an example of how you are trying this technicque). Have you ever heard the expression "yes dear", or "happy wife, happy life"?
> 
> I'm telling you as a newlywed what is really important and will help you in your marriage. If your wife threatens divorce, what you do is tell her that she should hop on a plane and get the hell out. Then start packing her crap and calling the front desk for a taxi.
> 
> If she talks to you like you are an idiot, tell her to stop speaking to you that way and go do your own thing. Simply NEVER allow yourself to be spoken to like you are incompetent. But when you make mistakes in life, admit to them. In other words she should be free to speak her mind, and you will consider her opinoin, but only if she speaks to you with respect.
> 
> Never try to appease the emotional beast. You are currently afraid of ruining your honeymoon. Fear. That's a killer. What will you be afraid of next? Money? Kids? Losing the house? Operating based on all of these fears will cause you to have a very unappy marriage.


Well here we are two weeks after the honeymoon. It got worse (physical) then better. I was on egg shells a lot throughout the honeymoon but it wasn't filled with an overabundance of conflict.

That's changed since we got home though and so has my patience. Hicks, I'm actually that way the majority of the time. I tell women when I meet them initially, I will never dominate you -but it better not come my way either or we will have serious issues.

She's thrown divorce threats around a bunch since we've been married and I finally told her yesterday -stop telling me what you are going to do, just do it. You want a divorce? Go file -I can't control you and I'm tired of hearing of all these things you are "going to do to me".

I've told her I'm tired of the explosive outbursts over the small things and especially since most of which she is guilty for just as often.

We have missed date night the last two weeks because she's blown up and I've told her that I am not going into public with her acting like that. 

To be honest I'm getting very tired of all the negativity. We have a pretty damn good life. She's 23, she has a very nice, large house in an upscale neighborhood, she has a low mile, highly modified camaro that she wanted, she has an incredible job while many are struggling to even get one and/or are stuck in deadend jobs that pay poorly. She's going back to school in winter like she wants, she can afford to go out and have fun, eat out etc and she has a husband that is pretty patient and loving (when she's not trying to attack me). 

Yet she claims she has such a horrible life, tells me she hates this life etc. She gave it up all for me; years ago when she wanted to go back to California to finish school and we were very new I told her I couldn't promise we would stay together if she went that route but that I would understand. I don't really do distance.

That said she blames me saying she stayed for me and now has this miserable life. WTF. There are so many people struggling so hard in life, it's really unfortunate -but she doesn't have a worry and lives quite well and is working towards her goals in life -WTH is the problem?

Today she tried telling me I'm a complete failure at work, that I'm not making what I should be and that the projects I'm working on with my customers are a joke. I bring in six figures, am closing contracts with some of the largest companies in the world and my executive leadership gave me a glowing review last week -WTF. 

A week ago she threw a fit about her car. She said it was too big for her and unpractical. That one of us needed a practical car. So I said ok, we can look for something as long as it doesn't cost more and we don't take a big financial hit. I've spent two entire days taking her all over the place looking at cars.

I told her we had to stay under 32K (remember her financial fit -which she's thrown again since we came back even though we are quickly recouping from everything already). 

She's found a couple that are front runners and quite nice (BMW 335 and Volvo S60 T6). Both fit the budget and make sense, but then today at the Audi dealership she keeps pushing hard for a new Audi TT ($52K). I told her 1. It's not practical like she said she wanted and two it's well out of the budget right now -maybe in a couple of years. 

But it's a perfect example of the hypocritical stuff I'm talking about. She throws a fit about our finances and lifestyle, but then a week or two later tries to convince me to spend another $20K+ on an impractical car to replace the one she got 4 months ago. 

Today I tried something, I said that we need help, that this isn't healthy how we are fighting constantly and over such tiny things. I then asked if she would start working together with me to get some help so we can turn things around.

She threw a fit, said she wouldn't have another shrink look at her etc since she's already seeing one (who by the way she has refused to go to since we returned). 

After all of this, she blows up again and after two weeks of daily hell I just lost it. I told her she can say all the hurtful things she wants, it doesn't hurt anymore. She can threaten me all she wants, I don't take them seriously anymore. I told her to stop telling me what she's going to do and just DO it, whatever it is -I'm sick and tired of hearing these empty threats. I told her she hurts the people closest to her. I told her that I'm tired of being the only one willing to try. I told her that until she's willing to put effort into this relationship that I don't care what she has to say about anything.

I also said that I'm tired of the excuses. I said she makes excuses for her behavior and it's always something new. It was her bad job at starbucks, then it was the wedding, now it's her good job, and her life. I said that everyone has to deal with life, that there will always be things that are not ideal but that there are people dealing with FAR FAR FAR worse. I told her that she needs to stop complaining about everything, stop making so many excuses, take responsibility for her life and start living.

She ended the night throwing tons of insults at me and telling me we will just be roommates now.

Guys I'm struggling here with a few things. 

1) This is my second marriage and I don't want to fail AGAIN -especially so fast.

2) If this marriage doesn't work it will significantly damage my faith in myself to carry on a good relationship -or a marriage for that matter.

3) I'm 32 in a few months.... I want 5 years or so with my wife to enjoy before kids but women my age need to have kids or the risks go through the roof for birth defects.

4) I'm a Christian, though my vent session above probably isn't the greatest example and I'm trying so hard to make this work. I really don't believe in divorce, I believe that if I'm willing to give up I can never truly tell someone that I will stick through life together for better or worse. I'll just be another quitter like the majority of marriages in this country.

**Caveat** This was written after weeks of daily hell and being lashed out at for no good reason day and night. That said there may be a somewhat cynical tone to it and poor paragraph/sentence structure


----------



## Uptown

Newly, if your W has strong BPD traits, her behavior likely will continue to get worse, not better. I strongly recommend you NOT have any children with her until you find out what is causing her to behave like a spoiled child who is frequently throwing temper tantrums and hissy fits. I also recommend that, if you've not already done so, you read my description of BPD traits at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/33734-my-list-hell.html#post473522. 

Four weeks ago, you said that you intended to speak with her therapist in hopes he would tell you what her diagnosis is. Did you ever get any useful information out of him? Did you ever see your own psychologist -- for a visit or two all by yourself -- to obtain a candid second opinion?


----------



## NewlyWed2000

Uptown said:


> Newly, if your W has strong BPD traits, her behavior likely will continue to get worse, not better. I strongly recommend you NOT have any children with her until you find out what is causing her to behave like a spoiled child who is frequently throwing temper tantrums and hissy fits. I also recommend that, if you've not already done so, you read my description of BPD traits at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/33734-my-list-hell.html#post473522.
> 
> Four weeks ago, you said that you intended to speak with her therapist in hopes he would tell you what her diagnosis is. Did you ever get any useful information out of him? Did you ever see your own psychologist -- for a visit or two all by yourself -- to obtain a candid second opinion?


Hi UpTown,

I've been emailing her psychologist regular updates. She said she was sorry things were difficult and that she would pray for us but did not respond to my question about BPD.

My life has been very hectic since returning playing catch up with my work so no I haven't scheduled anything for myself yet. Part of that is also a little my issue with dr's / psychologists. Never really went to either much (except the ER) and I don't know how to find a good one. I tried getting ahold of one but they were very flaky and difficult to set something up with.

Any suggestions on how to find a good counselor? I know it seems like a simple question but I really have very little exposure to it.

PS. I did read your link and it's eerie how much it hits home...


----------



## 3Xnocharm

NewlyWed2000 said:


> Hi UpTown,
> 
> I've been emailing her psychologist regular updates. She said she was sorry things were difficult and that she would pray for us but did not respond to my question about BPD.
> 
> My life has been very hectic since returning playing catch up with my work so no I haven't scheduled anything for myself yet. Part of that is also a little my issue with dr's / psychologists. Never really went to either much (except the ER) and I don't know how to find a good one. I tried getting ahold of one but they were very flaky and difficult to set something up with.
> 
> Any suggestions on how to find a good counselor? I know it seems like a simple question but I really have very little exposure to it.


Don't divorce, annul this crap and get on with your life! What a miserable b1tch.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## KanDo

I think the lack of a response by her shrink to your borderline personality disorder querey speaks volumes. I too recommend you see a counselor yourself and potentially get the she-devil to subsequently come along for a better assessment. 

Howvere, if it was me, I would just cut my losses. Life is too short to live with this. The single episode of physical abuse would have been enough for me to pack her bags.

You have my sympathy


----------



## Uptown

NewlyWed2000 said:


> Hi UpTown, I've been emailing her psychologist regular updates. She said she was sorry things were difficult and that she would pray for us but did not respond to my question about BPD.


Like KanDo, I am not surprised by that lack of a response. As I noted earlier, therapists generally are loath to tell a BPDer client -- much less tell her husband -- the name of her disorder. In post #17 above, I provide a link to my post giving several reasons why it usually is not in the best interests of a high functioning BPDer to be told the diagnosis.


> I also said that I'm tired of the excuses....I told her that she needs to stop complaining about everything, stop making so many excuses, take responsibility for her life and start living.


I applaud your decision to hold her fully accountable for her own bad behavior. To do otherwise -- i.e., to allow her to get away with acting like a spoiled child -- would harm her by destroying her opportunities to have to confront her issues and learn how to manage them. I nonetheless caution that, if she has strong BPD traits, it would be unrealistic to expect a sudden improvement. In the unlikely event she decides to seek treatment and work hard on it, a substantial improvement would take several years at least. You don't get very far in telling a four year old to "start behaving like an adult." It takes time to retrain one's mind in new ways of thinking.


> Any suggestions on how to find a good counselor?


Newly, in the USA alone, there likely are over a hundred different types of licensed counselors and therapists. For a description of the differences among basic types, take a look at M.D., Ph.D., M.A., MFCC or MFT, etc… Who are these people?.

Given what is at stake, I suggest you see a clinical psychologist -- for a visit or two all by yourself -- to obtain a candid opinion on what you are dealing with. Without your W there, the psych will not be able to render a formal diagnosis -- but he likely will speak far more candidly to you about her issues (if strong BPD traits are involved).

Another option is to see a psychiatrist but, unless you need medication for yourself, there is no point in paying for someone's medical degree. Generally, a psychiatrist will charge at least double what the psychologist charges. Both of them have a doctorate in psychology but only the psychiatrist has a medical degree.

As in any profession, the skill sets vary GREATLY among psychologists. It therefore is prudent to do some research before scheduling an appointment. You may want to ask a trusted physician for a recommendation or do some research on the Internet for psychologists in your area treating BPDers. Or you could call the psychiatric unit at a local hospital and ask to speak with the head nurse on duty -- and then ask her to recommend someone. Usually, nurses on a psych unit know who the most respected psychologists are.


> I was on egg shells a lot throughout the honeymoon.


You should stop walking on eggshells around her. Your enabling behavior is harmful to both of you. This is why the best-selling BPD book is called _Stop Walking on Eggshells_. Reading it would be helpful if you intend to remain with your W. If you decide to get a divorce instead, I strongly suggest you read _Splitting: Protecting Yourself while Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder._ Both books are written by the same author.


> That said she blames me saying she stayed for me and now has this miserable life....WTH is the problem?


If she has strong BPD traits, the problem is that the damage experienced in early childhood has left her with a lifetime of self loathing and anger inside -- and with an emptiness inside that cannot be filled up, no matter what you do. Trying to fill that hole by taking care of her is as futile as trying to fill the Grand Canyon with a squirt gun.


> Today she tried telling me I'm a complete failure at work, that I'm not making what I should be and that the projects I'm working on with my customers are a joke.


Yes, and at other times she likely will speak highly of you. This is an example of the black-white thinking I discussed earlier in post #9 above. If your W is a BPDer, her self image is so fragile and unstable that she cannot tolerate ambiguities, dualities, uncertainties, or other grey areas in her interpersonal relationships with loved ones. You therefore will be perceived as "all good" when she is "splitting you white" and as "all bad" when she is "splitting you black."


> I really don't believe in divorce, I believe that if I'm willing to give up I can never truly tell someone that I will stick through life together for better or worse. I'll just be another quitter like the majority of marriages in this country.


If you are married to a BPDer, you don't actually have a husband/wife relationship. Rather, you have a parent/child relationship because you are living with a woman who has the emotional development of a four year old. Granted, she has the intelligence, knowledge, and body strength of a full grown woman -- but her emotional development was arrested at a very young age, leaving her fully dependent on the primitive ego defenses available to a young child. As you've seen, these primitive defenses include black-white thinking, projection, temper tantrums, magical thinking, and denial.

At issue, then, is whether you want to spend the rest of your life trying to sooth and calm her every time she throws a hissy fit or temper tantrum. Moreover, if she really is a BPDer, she likely will leave you in about 15 years -- as my W did to me. As the years go by, a BPDer becomes increasingly resentful of your inability to make her happy and increasingly fearful of abandonment (as she sees her body aging). When the abandonment fear becomes too painful, it is common for BPDers to preemptively abandon their spouses before it can be done to them.


> If this marriage doesn't work it will significantly damage my faith in myself to carry on a good relationship -or a marriage for that matter


Nonsense. If your W is a BPDer, no man on the planet is capable of "carrying on a good relationship" with her -- unless she gets many years of intensive therapy. Your inability to do the impossible says nothing about your futhre prospects as a husband. (You nonetheless would do well to learn how to control your excessive caregiver tendencies so as to stop trying to be the White Knight.)


> **Caveat** This was written after weeks of daily hell and being lashed out at for no good reason day and night.


Yes, I understand. And, when she starts splitting you white again and treating you well, you will start second guessing everything we've discussed here. Indeed, you likely will then conclude that you greatly exaggerated her abusiveness and that all is improving. If you are living with a BPDer, it is VERY hard to get off the roller coaster because the good times are very very good -- to the point of being addictive. This is why I stayed on the coaster for 15 years. 

I mention this because, although it may be hard for you to see, you've already made remarkable progress, Newly. The next step, IMO, is to obtain a candid assessment from a very good psychologist who is ethically bound to protect YOUR best interests, not hers.


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## Anon Pink

Newlywed, read up towns post many times.

Look for a PhD, not LCSW. The former are expert diagnostician and treatment practitioners. The latter are best for the average counseling on typical life issues. The guidance you seek is NOT for typical life issues.

Living with a spouse who has strong BPD traits is like living in a foreign country with a strange language and upside down customs that are antithetical to all you hold dear and everything you understand. In other words, crazy town. You need someone on your side who knows the difference between crazy town and your hometown.

This is NOT your failure. Seeing a PhD doesn't indicate your lack of mental health. But one thing I can guarantee you, staying with your wife without an expert guide (the PhD) WILL make you almost as sick as she is.


----------



## NewlyWed2000

Thank you all for the support. I've reached out to the Pastor of the church she grew up in and who married her. She was studying to be a youth pastor and a family counselor so she was pretty close to the church and this pastor. He is finding someone for me to go to and will try to help us.

I'm at the point now where I just don't care if she gets angry anymore. I'm going to try anything to make it better irrespective of whether she wants to or not. If after giving it everything I can and exhausting all avenues things don't improve then there will be some difficult decisions to be made.

This forum has been immensely helpful. UpTown, your posts are long, well structured and thought out. Thank you for taking the time to be so helpful. Others have as well but UpTown has really gone out of his way to put considerable effort in to help and that's not common in today's society with a stranger.

The fact that you put the same effort into many other threads says a lot about you. The world could use more people like yourself.

You are a great person and from one anonymous person to another I'm incredibly thankful.


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## Uptown

Newly, thanks for the kind words. I'm glad to hear you found the BPD information helpful. As to your getting a referral from a church pastor, I am concerned you will be referred to a MC. For routine communication problems, MCs can be very helpful. If your W has strong traits of a PD like BPD, however, her issues go FAR beyond a communication problem. 

To improve substantially, BPDers have to learn how to trust, how to control their own emotions, how to do self soothing, how to intellectually challenge their own intense feelings, how to tolerate dualities and ambiguities in close interpersonal relationships, how to develop a stronger self image, how to establish personal boundaries, and how to avoid black-white thinking. That is, they have to learn how to retrain their minds to think differently. Until that is done -- and it would take years -- MC likely would be a total waste of time (and may even prove counterproductive if your W uses MC as a way to play games and make you look foolish to a professional). 

This is why I suggested you start by obtaining professional guidance from a psychologist who has never seen your W -- and thus is ethically bound to protect only YOUR best interests, not hers. As I mentioned earlier, her therapist is NOT your friend. Relying on your W's therapist for advice during the marriage would be as foolish as relying on her attorney's advice during the divorce.


----------



## NewlyWed2000

Uptown said:


> Newly, thanks for the kind words. I'm glad to hear you found the BPD information helpful. As to your getting a referral from a church pastor, I am concerned you will be referred to a MC. For routine communication problems, MCs can be very helpful. If your W has strong traits of a PD like BPD, however, her issues go FAR beyond a communication problem.
> 
> To improve substantially, BPDers have to learn how to trust, how to control their own emotions, how to do self soothing, how to intellectually challenge their own intense feelings, how to tolerate dualities and ambiguities in close interpersonal relationships, how to develop a stronger self image, how to establish personal boundaries, and how to avoid black-white thinking. That is, they have to learn how to retrain their minds to think differently. Until that is done -- and it would take years -- MC likely would be a total waste of time (and may even prove counterproductive if your W uses MC as a way to play games and make you look foolish to a professional).
> 
> This is why I suggested you start by obtaining professional guidance from a psychologist who has never seen your W -- and thus is ethically bound to protect only YOUR best interests, not hers. As I mentioned earlier, her therapist is NOT your friend. Relying on your W's therapist for advice during the marriage would be as foolish as relying on her attorney's advice during the divorce.


Thanks UpTown, I'll do both then.

For what it's worth, he does think that BPD is definitely something we should explore.


----------



## NewlyWed2000

Time for another update. 

Today was a tough day, but I ended up telling her about BPD and actually sharing many of UpTown's threads (not this one and without actual links to the site). 

I basically told her it was something I had been reading about quite a bit and this really hit home. I told her that I wasn't attacking her, just trying to understand what was going on and to find a way to improve things for us. I had asked her in the email I sent to read it with an open mind.

Apparently it really hit home for her as well. She immediately purchased 5 different books on it and read a ton while we were apart the first half of the day. One of the books was from a BPDer who recovered and it's their life story. She said it was so common to hers that it was eerie.

She's been VERY apologetic. Starting with telling me to just leave her and that I don't deserve this. She's sarcastic or looking for sympathy sometimes but she wasn't this time -she truly meant it. She said she feels horrible now seeing what she's been doing to me, that she doesn't understand how I could love her after all of this and why I haven't left yet.

She openly has admitted to doing some of the stuff most of her life and that she didn't realize what she was doing until now.

She's also shared some other very honest but tough stuff to hear with me. For one she said she actually doesn't like sex which was shocking to me. She has had more of an appetite for it than I in the past so it blew me away. I am a very giving lover and focus on the person I'm with. Consequently I usually make her orgasm but she says she feels too vulnerable when that happens and it scares her. 

I think because of past experiences she needs to work through some stuff before she will enjoy it more. She has still said however that she wants to have a regular sex life to at least ensure my needs are met there and that she really likes the affection afterwards too. So on that note, while not what I want to hear I think it's a workable situation.

Regarding the BPD bit. she's reading actively, she is incredibly remorseful and it's not the kind of pity me stuff -it's genuine. She has also agreed to get treatment, whatever it takes. My hope is that the mix of her now awareness of it, what she's been doing, her remorse (she really does have a good heart, I just feel she needed to see what was happening) and willingness to try that things could improve immediately. Not perfect by any means but I think we can start to see improvements.

Additionally she said she was worried she was mirroring but I asked her, do you like x, x, x, x, x? All were answered yes and all are things I love too. I think we do have many things in common.

The mirroring I told her I think was done differently. She initially agreed on everything I wanted to do. Now I got a little upset with her when this was happening and told her I wanted her to have a voice, I wanted things to be equal and right before the marriage it completely changed to everything had to be her way etc. 

She acknowledged that and I am hoping we can get back to treating each other like equals.

Another very interesting thing. We have NEVER been able to discuss major conflict issues without her exploding... We did all evening tonight and we talked about very difficult stuff. That's promising as well.

I can tell she feels horrid for me and even some of her family members. She's a little scared b/c she studied psychology at a top 10 university and knows that this is a tough thing to treat but she isn't using this as an excuse to be the way she is, she isn't denying it, she isn't projecting it on me but rather trying already to understand it better and get help so I'm hoping for the best.

It's nearly 1AM and it's been an exhausting day so I apologize for my sentence structure. In fact the last few posts have been pretty bad but with everything going on I'm just a bit frazzled.

We found a PhD Psychologist that's highly recommended and known to treat BPD. We will be scheduling something tomorrow with him.

As for me, since she's willing to put effort into this, I'm willing to keep trying. It gives me hope -lets just hope she keeps it up. I will do everything I can to support her through this whole process -including getting some help for myself.


----------



## Uptown

Newly, that's wonderful news! Indeed, it's almost unbelievable. In the six years I've been doing this, I've communicated with hundreds of spouses and partners in a similar situation and have never heard of the BPDer partner being so receptive to the information.

Granted, you will find treated BPDers on this forum (like Pidge and SoulPotato) who are self aware. And I've had the good fortune to communicate with nearly a hundred other self aware BPDers on several forums. They are so rare, however, that I've never knowingly met one in my private life even though I do know a number of BPDers. 

I've never seen any statistics on it but I would guess that the share of high functioning BPDers who are self aware is roughly 5%. It is far higher among low functioning BPDers because they are in such severe pain that they are forced to be more introspective. In contrast, a HF BPDer nearly always reacts to the news by refusing to believe it. If the spouse is claiming she may have strong BPD traits, a HF BPDer nearly always will project the accusation back onto him. Because the projection is done subconsciously, she will actually believe that her spouse is the one having BPD.

I mention all this to explain why your W's chances of doing well in therapy are _dramatically improved_ by her amazing level of self awareness. That is, the main reason that BPD treatment has such a dismal success rate among HF BPDers is that it is rare for them to have sufficient self awareness to take advantage of the treatment programs. Usually, they refuse to attend. A HF BPDer is filled with so much self loathing that the last thing she wants to find is one more item to add to the long list of things she hates about herself. 

Further, even when these BPDers attend therapy at the insistence of the spouse, they typically will play mind games with the therapists (as my exW did with six different psychologists in weekly visits for 15 years). It therefore is very very encouraging that your W has already overcome the biggest impediment to a successful treatment.

She is not out of the woods yet, however. In addition to the self awareness, she also must have the ego strength required to be willing to work hard in therapy for several years (at least) of weekly sessions. And, while you and your insurance company are spending the big bucks on therapy, you will have the problem of determining whether she is actually making real progress instead of playing mind games. 

That determination will not be easy. The problem is that, in the same way that smokers are always "quitting" every several weeks, BPDers are always dramatically "improving" every several weeks. Distinguishing real improvement from the upside of another mood cycle is hard to do, especially when you are partially blinded by love. 

In my case, I figured I would not see any improvement for several years. Indeed, I expected my exW's behavior might even get worse as she got in touch with very painful childhood feelings every week. So, for several years, I wasn't expecting to see improvement. Then, for the next dozen years, I convinced myself -- lied to myself, actually -- that I was seeing some improvement. 

My exW, however, never had the self awareness to consider that she had BPD. Indeed, none of the six psychologists told her about it. The last one, whom she saw weekly for five years, never would tell us what was wrong. Whenever I asked, she would only say "I don't believe labels are useful." Finally, at my very last session with her -- when I was very insistent on hearing a "label" -- she grudgingly admitted to me that my exW has a "thought disorder" (which is what BPD is).

That said, it still is _wonderful news_ that your W is so remarkably receptive to the BPD information and is agreeing to see a psychologist who has sufficient experience to determine if she has the disorder -- and to treat it if necessary. If she is interested in participating at a forum dedicated to BPDers, you might mention to her that BPDrecovery.com is one of the most active forums available. If she wants another book, _Borderline Personality Disorder Demystified_ is popular among BPDers I've spoken with.


----------



## Anuvia

Dude. You need to get that marriage annulled ASAP or else you're going to be in a world of hurt in the coming years. Her saying that she understood why your previous wife left you is a terrible thing to say. You may not know this woman as well as you think you do. You've made a huge mistake my friend. She probably bipolar or something.


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## Anuvia

NewlyWed2000 said:


> Hi Tom,
> 
> Some bad stuff popped up a few months before we got married. We went to her counselor together who she's been seeing all her life.
> 
> The feedback I've gotten from her pastor, father and counselor (she's very close to all of them) is that this is very abnormal.
> 
> She has gone through some very hard stuff in the last few years. Lost her mother, was sexually assaulted, and she's been abused in past relationships physically.
> 
> We had a period of about two months that was VERY bad and then it calmed down. Now things are getting negative again and I'm just running out of ideas on what to do.
> 
> She's done some incredible things, made huge life sacrifices for others so I know she has a good heart (as an example, she left in her final year of college at a top 10 university where she was on the dean's list and also a soloist in the choir (they are the #1 vocal university in the US) to sit on a couch and take care of her mother day in and out for 9 months while she watched her die -a mother who treated her horribly growing up.
> 
> Anyone who can make a sacrifice like that has a huge heart.there is just something going on and I don't know what it is.


All of what you listed (her mom dying, being abused, etc) is her problem and not yours. You're her husband not her shrink. Maybe she should work on her issues before she starts a relationship with someone and make her problems yours. Get that marriage annulled ASAP and send her back to go live with her daddy.

Don't let her dad or her pastor guilt you into staying in this situation.


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## beautiful_seclusion

She sounds a lot like my stbx. No matter how good things were for him, something was never good enough. There was always some excuse to throw a tantrum and be abusive. He'd apologize when I put my foot down only to go back on it five minutes later. No matter how many boundaries I set, he found a way to manipulate around them. I do think he has traits of either bpd or npd, but it's hard to know when they won't get professional help.

I hope she gets better, but she honestly doesn't sound like she's wanting to work on herself. This type of thing is so hard to treat even for someone who does want to get better, someone who doesn't is almost impossible. Really think if you can tolerate this indefinitely. And if you have to leave, you're not the one the failed. She is by being entirely horrible and unreasonable and not getting help. A bad childhood is not an excuse to not change herself. She has every opportunity to go to therapy and get past her abuse history. Don't feel sorry for her when she's doing zero to help herself. Also, the fact that it got physical tells me you should get out of there. For one, I'm not sure why nobody takes that seriously when it's a man. It's still just as wrong. Plus what happens when she gets so out of control you have to defend yourself and then she paints you as the abuser? It's great you want to help her, but you have to take care of yourself and realize she can't be forced to change if she doesn't want to. I know what you're going through though; it's so insane how they act that we think we can just fix them and help them, because who wouldn't want to get better? But partners like that don't know how to be happy and will make everyone else miserable because they blame everyone else for not making them happy when it's really them.


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## Anuvia

NewlyWed2000 said:


> Hi UpTown,
> 
> I've been emailing her psychologist regular updates. She said she was sorry things were difficult and that she would pray for us but did not respond to my question about BPD.
> 
> My life has been very hectic since returning playing catch up with my work so no I haven't scheduled anything for myself yet. Part of that is also a little my issue with dr's / psychologists. Never really went to either much (except the ER) and I don't know how to find a good one. I tried getting ahold of one but they were very flaky and difficult to set something up with.
> 
> Any suggestions on how to find a good counselor? I know it seems like a simple question but I really have very little exposure to it.
> 
> PS. I did read your link and it's eerie how much it hits home...


Its very telling that the answer her psychologist had for you is that she will pray for you. Divorce her now. You are in for a really sh1tty life if you stay with her. You can find another woman that is more mature and not crazy.


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## weightlifter

something happened for THIS trigger.

Affair 20%
money something 35%
Some kind of skeleton in her closet started making noise 20%
Shes just plain crazy 25%

Just be aware that people with issues dont often cure. You have a higher than average probability of all of the above items, yes including the first one.

Eyes open mouth shut. NO spying at this point. DO NOT EVEN SAY THE WORD AFFAIR!!!!!!!!! it is unlikely but possible.


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## Hicks

NewlyWed2000 said:


> Guys I'm struggling here with a few things.
> 
> 1) This is my second marriage and I don't want to fail AGAIN -especially so fast.



And? Your not inside your wife's body. You are not failing and your fear of failure is an excuse for living miserably? Who is judging you? F* them! It's your life.



NewlyWed2000 said:


> 2) If this marriage doesn't work it will significantly damage my faith in myself to carry on a good relationship -or a marriage for that matter.


Oh please.



NewlyWed2000 said:


> 3) I'm 32 in a few months.... I want 5 years or so with my wife to enjoy before kids but women my age need to have kids or the risks go through the roof for birth defects.


You should not be having kids or thinking about kids with this woman. She would be a horrible mother. That's not fair to a child.



NewlyWed2000 said:


> 4) I'm a Christian, though my vent session above probably isn't the greatest example and I'm trying so hard to make this work. I really don't believe in divorce, I believe that if I'm willing to give up I can never truly tell someone that I will stick through life together for better or worse. I'll just be another quitter like the majority of marriages in this country.


More enabling rationalization.
It's your life... 
What you should focus on is how to choose a woman and get to know their characteristics PRIOR to marriage.
You should also focus on not enabling behaviors.
YOU STANDING UP FOR YOURSELF and allowing your wife to make her own choices is what you have to do, which then mean most of what you post as a rational for not doing anything really don't even enter into the equation.


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## dogman

Newly, 
My wife displays many BPD traits and is very hard on me at times. I have a couple threads on here for that and a couple I've deleted because its sometimes painful to here the truth.
Uptown has been hugely helpful. Along with a number of other posters.

You are fortunate if she is willing to reflect on her own behavior at all. You are already waaaay ahead of me and we've been married 23 yrs. my wife will admit nothing.

You have this well in hand for the time being, but I caution you to avoid having children together for a long time. This is just to avoid the pain involved with some of the things that are likely headed your way. If I didn't have kids I would have opted to move on from shear exhaustion many years ago.

Good luck...


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## NewlyWed2000

Little update.

She finally found a PhD Psychologist who is well known in the area for treating this. The Psychologist said she wants to start with DBT immediately.

She had another physical outburst about 3 weeks ago, literally smashing my face while I was laying in bed in the dark and I ended up with a bunch of cuts on my chest and a numb face after all was said and done.

I told her right after that I was through, done, going to file in the morning. After going back and forth I told her that if this occurred once more, any physical attack -we would at the very least no longer live together immediately. No attacks since then but we will see if it lasts.

I've also been seeing a counselor, I don't think there is much they can do for me as I have done plenty of reading now and while I'm aware of what is going on and why -it doesn't make it hurt any less. The counselor says that she can start trying to teach me some techniques once my wife starts her therapy so I'm learning what techniques she is and how to support her with them. 

Some days I've been feeling a little encouraged now that she has someone, but mostly I feel pretty down. Really is a bummer that 3 months into my marriage there is zero intimacy (not just sex). Outside of her I have a fantastic life and I wish there could be a few positive things she added to it.

I've been trying to do nice things even though she constantly picks me apart. Anytime I do something nice she finds a way to attack it -or she tells me I'm just doing nice things to make her feel bad. It's tough to do kind gestures when you feel like this but I try and try at least every other day and it just seems to add fuel to the fire.

She's told me going back to school would make her very happy, so she's starting next month. That said, the counseling for her (she insists on seeing an out of network counselor in addition to the psychologist) and her schooling is another unexpected $1100/mo. 

She wanted a new car b/c the Camaro we got her was "too big" and not "practical" as she puts it. I've asked that we bump down to a car somewhere around 15K or so at least for the next year while she finishes school to help offset some of the significant expenses she is incurring and I only get hell for it. 

I'm not one to keep track of who gives what, but I tried to mention that her expenses are triple mine and that I'm trying to be supportive and am simply asking her to be understanding and willing to make some temporary concessions but I'm again just the big bad guy for trying to be fiscally responsible.

Every other day I want to give up, I know I'd be so much happier without her. I try so hard to make her feel good/special and wish I had a spouse who actually appreciated some of it. 

Oh to add to all of it. I also found out about a month ago (during a very calm discussion) that she hates sex. Before we were married I couldn't keep up with her and had told her that sex was important to me. She completely led me on, only to tell me after we are married that she's always hated it, not just with me but with anyone -even though I'm a very giving lover, I always wait for her to orgasm first (she says that when she does she feels too vulnerable).

Bottom line, I'm supposed to look to this person to meet my sexual needs the rest of my life and I just found out she essentially lied to me until after the marriage. She told me she "wanted" it so much b/c she thought I'd be more interested in her.

Were I not a Christian I'd leave in a heartbeat but unfortunately my faith pushes me to keep trying. 

She's making some efforts -even though she says she's only going to "get me off her back" but I'm trying to remain positive.

I have told her that if at some point we decide this is how we are going to spend the rest of our lives that I am finished -I cannot live like this and she shouldn't either.

Oh and on one other note, she gets mad at me b/c I talk to her family and hang out with them often but she doesn't. She says I'm taking them from her but I've told her many times she just needs to actually call them or plan something. She doesn't but then blames it on me heh.

I feel like such an idiot, I really wish I had known all of this beforehand. I would be single right now and very happy. 

The most ironic part to all of this is that before I fully give my heart to someone I typically tend to analyze things. Some might call that cold hearted but I just don't want to put myself into a relationship that could be unhealthy for both of us long term.

Cancer runs in her family big time. I was scared before we got very involved because I knew I'd just die to lose someone I loved dearly 25 years down the road (her mother passed in her early 50s) and the thought of my children also going through this sounded terrible.

That said, I finally decided that spending as much time as we got married to my bestfriend, someone I could experience a love and life with that wouldn't compare to anything else was worth the very potential heartbreak down the road.

The irony in all of this right now is downright evil


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## Sandfly

I cannot BELIEVE some of the shyt you guys put up with.

Absolutely unbelievable behaviour.

You know, I've never even paid the full bill in a restaurant, let alone bought someone a car and had my face smashed in and my balls cut off in exchange.

Will you marry me instead? You won't get sex ...(alright, maybe a blowie now and then  ) but I could really do with a new car and a paid-for crack at another college course.

You do realise that once she's finished college, she'll want a career? And then she'll meet the 'love of her life' in the shape of her boss!!

I must be nuts. Why are men so easy? Imagine if I were to act this rotten to someone I supposedly cared about?! No wonder some blokes have a go at being a woman, think of the benefits! 

I'm outraged at this story.... So should you be!


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## LostViking

Nowhere in the Bible does it command you to stay with an abusive spouse. 

I don't know where you go to church but someone has been feeding you false doctrine. If you stay with this woman you deserve what she gives you. I'm sorry.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 12345Person

Stop being a goddamn pushover geez. My vagina has more balls than you do.


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## 12345Person

Oh, and there's a good chance she'll cheat on you with someone at college.

Get your act together.


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## NewlyWed2000

LostViking said:


> Nowhere in the Bible does it command you to stay with an abusive spouse.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Unless she's ill, which in this case she is.


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## 12345Person

She does not hate sex.

She's afraid of intimacy.


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## NewlyWed2000

Sandfly said:


> I cannot BELIEVE some of the shyt you guys put up with.
> 
> Absolutely unbelievable behaviour.
> 
> You know, I've never even paid the full bill in a restaurant, let alone bought someone a car and had my face smashed in and my balls cut off in exchange.
> 
> Will you marry me instead? You won't get sex ...(alright, maybe a blowie now and then  ) but I could really do with a new car and a paid-for crack at another college course.
> 
> You do realise that once she's finished college, she'll want a career? And then she'll meet the 'love of her life' in the shape of her boss!!
> 
> I must be nuts. Why are men so easy? Imagine if I were to act this rotten to someone I supposedly cared about?! No wonder some blokes have a go at being a woman, think of the benefits!
> 
> I'm outraged at this story.... So should you be!


Had I known what I do now prior to the marriage I'd have sent her packing her bags. 

I feel obligated at this point due to my belief system. 

If she stops getting help or it doesn't help I'll throw in the towel.


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## NewlyWed2000

Anonymous Person said:


> Oh, and there's a good chance she'll cheat on you with someone at college.
> 
> Get your act together.


That would be great, I'd have zero issues leaving if she did. Ticket out with a clear conscious on my part.


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## NewlyWed2000

Anonymous Person said:


> Stop being a goddamn pushover geez. My vagina has more balls than you do.


I would argue following your belief system even when it's painful takes more "balls".

Were we not married, she'd have had all of her stuff on the street a long time ago as I agree, it's 100% unacceptable. 

However I feel obligated to try based on my faith which I'll be the first to say sucks.

I'm trying to start setting boundaries (by trying I mean determining the specifics of what boundaries to set). As I mentioned, she lays a hand on me one more time she's out of the house. Also, while it may seem like a lack of "balls" to not fight back, I refuse to hit a woman and I don't want to leave her with a police record either. 

If I end up leaving her as terrible as she's been to me it's driven by this stupid illness and I'll still hope she can salvage the best life possible.

If this were not from BPD and just the way she was as an individual my response to all of this would have been very different.


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## 12345Person

NewlyWed2000 said:


> I would argue following your belief system even when it's painful takes more "balls".
> 
> Were we not married, she'd have had all of her stuff on the street a long time ago as I agree, it's 100% unacceptable.
> 
> However I feel obligated to try based on my faith which I'll be the first to say sucks.
> 
> I'm trying to start setting boundaries (by trying I mean determining the specifics of what boundaries to set). As I mentioned, she lays a hand on me one more time she's out of the house. Also, while it may seem like a lack of "balls" to not fight back, I refuse to hit a woman and I don't want to leave her with a police record either.
> 
> If I end up leaving her as terrible as she's been to me it's driven by this stupid illness and I'll still hope she can salvage the best life possible.
> 
> If this were not from BPD and just the way she was as an individual my response to all of this would have been very different.


You were having sex before marriage and you're talking about your faith? Hypocrite much?

Do what you want, but your faith has nothing to do with staying in an abusive relationship, wasting time with a woman who will most likely cheat on you and ruin your life.


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## NewlyWed2000

Anonymous Person said:


> You were having sex before marriage and you're talking about your faith? Hypocrite much?
> 
> Do what you want, but your faith has nothing to do with staying in an abusive relationship, wasting time with a woman who will most likely cheat on you and ruin your life.


I'm happy to admit I made mistakes and don't follow the book perfectly. I'm sure you are perfect but not all of us are as fortunate.

I appreciate your attempts to be insightful and contribute in a helpful way  

I suppose tact isn't a gift we are all blessed with though.


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## LostViking

What happens next time when she replaces her fist with a knife, or a frying pan?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NewlyWed2000

LostViking said:


> What happens next time when she replaces her fist with a knife, or a frying pan?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Next time there is a physical anything she's going to be looking for immediate living arrangements -knowing a BPD's fear of abandonment I'm banking on her not making that mistake again knowing the consequences.


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## LostViking

Or you'll be dead. I'm serious.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NewlyWed2000

LostViking said:


> Or you'll be dead. I'm serious.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ok, and there are many car accidents every day. I could die tomorrow driving my car. That doesn't mean I'm going to hide in the house.

Probably won't happen, and I probably won't get attacked with a knife.

FWIW I also trained Krav Maga and MMA extensively and if she were to come at me with a weapon I would actually get physical with her and take care of the threat. I've had plenty of training on how to deal with a weapon. I am far more inclined to believe that there would be an attack with her fists again rather than a weapon though.


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## LostViking

I just don't know how you sleep at night. Can you tell when she is on one of her moods?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NewlyWed2000

LostViking said:


> I just don't know how you sleep at night. Can you tell when she is on one of her moods?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Appreciate the thoughts guys but this isn't helpful.

Viking I don't think you understand what BPD is which is perfectly fine.

It doesn't work like that.

Her physical episodes are based on triggers, I say or do something that to most people wouldn't be an issue but to her it is something else entirely, she starts escalating quickly and then it ultimately sometimes leads to physical outbursts. It's a immediate emotional reaction based on a trigger. If I'm not talking to her, it's not happening. She doesn't sit and think I'm going to attack him etc.

To be quite honest, I know she loves me but she's completely out of control of her emotions and has a very distorted view of the world based this disorder. As terrible as she's been to me, I feel bad for her and hope she can get better -whether I am in the picture or not. I can only imagine how overwhelming all this is for her to accept and face too.... I'd absolutely hate to learn I had this.

Some people are just nasty and choose to be that way. That isn't her, it doesn't justify her actions either but there is a difference.


----------



## LostViking

Well, you're a better man than me. I couldn't do it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## NewlyWed2000

LostViking said:


> Well, you're a better man than me. I couldn't do it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well, we'll see how long I last. It's only been 3 months. There are people who have been married to BPD spouses for over 25 years. There is no way I could handle that. In fact if she wasn't willing to get help or stops, I'm out. That is the only thing keeping me in at this point.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

You're using religion as an excuse to have no self respect. And really God hates it when people use him to enable themselves.


----------



## NewlyWed2000

WorkingOnMe said:


> You're using religion as an excuse to have no self respect. And really God hates it when people use him to enable themselves.


I've spoken to a number of ministers about this who I have a ton of respect for. The consensus is that because this is an illness I need to stick with it and try to support her through this. If she were not ill and this was happening I believe I'd be ok to leave.

I believe one also mentioned that supposedly God gives people the grace and strength when they are in very difficult situations like this to get through it.

Being forthcoming I've always been a believer but never followed him but have experienced a lot of growth in my own faith the last 6 months especially.

Anyway I don't want to make this a big discussion about religion, but I do believe a lot of people who don't know a ton about the bible will take snippets or what they think is right to try and make a point. 

Suffice it to say I've spoken to a few very down to earth, knowledgeable pastors (from different churches and denominations as well) about this already about this topic


----------



## Sandfly

Listen, blowjobs in exchange for a new car. Do we have a deal or not?

I think you're pulling our leg.

No one could be that masochistic. Al Qaeda have had some openings recently for martyrs/suicide-bombers.

Now the pay is minimal, the working conditions aren't the best, but at least you get to see God and a whole 72 virgins :smthumbup:

But seriously, you must be kidding.

I hope you're kidding. Annulment at the very least - she took those vows 'to have and to hold', and she has recanted on them. Tell her it's TOUGH LUCK.


----------



## downfall69

why stick around till she cheats on you then leaves you. it will break your heart. is having a clear conscience worth all this pain. things will never get better there will always be something. you give her a life that so many people would die for and still she sh!t's on you.

if you were married for 10-20 years i could understand fighting for your marriage but it's only been a few months. stop acting like she is the last woman on earth and move on before it get's more complicated


----------



## NewlyWed2000

Sandfly said:


> Listen, blowjobs in exchange for a new car. Do we have a deal or not?
> 
> I think you're pulling our leg.
> 
> No one could be that masochistic. Al Qaeda have had some openings recently for martyrs/suicide-bombers.
> 
> Now the pay is minimal, the working conditions aren't the best, but at least you get to see God and a whole 72 virgins :smthumbup:
> 
> But seriously, you must be kidding.


Funny (seriously), and no, I'm not.

Taking things one day at a time this point and doing my best not to throw in the towel. It's not easy. It wouldn't surprise me if most would, that's the way the majority of our population works -if something is hard, quit and find something else. 

Thus our atrocious divorce rate and I might even argue income disparity. Many people just aren't willing to work that hard when it comes to adversity.

Again, since she's ILL and only just learned this herself I'm doing my best to be patient and supportive. As I mentioned if she were NOT ill I'd be out in a heartbeat.

Here's another way to look at it. You are married, you find out your wife has cancer. Do you give up and leave since she may die and cause terrible heartache in addition to the cost of treatment? I mean you might as well move on and find someone healthy and just get started on that right? OR do you try to weather the storm with her and give her as much support as you can.

Not quite apples to apples since this is a mental thing but there are some similarities I think.


----------



## Sandfly

You have a martyr complex. I can't help you with that, so I'm off.

That's me waving look, in the picture.


----------



## NewlyWed2000

downfall69 said:


> why stick around till she cheats on you then leaves you. it will break your heart. is having a clear conscience worth all this pain. things will never get better there will always be something. you give her a life that so many people would die for and still she sh!t's on you.
> 
> if you were married for 10-20 years i could understand fighting for your marriage but it's only been a few months. stop acting like she is the last woman on earth and move on before it get's more complicated


Not to be ****y downfall, but I'm not concerned with my ability to meet women, I've never had trouble dating and am not scared of being alone if I ended this.

I guess the biggest difference is most of the people posting tonight don't appear to know what BPD is and don't realize it's an illness that CAN be treated. That right there is the key thing to be aware of. 

As I've said repeatedly, if it were not for this being caused by an illness I'd have filed already and if she doesn't continue with treatment I still will.


----------



## 12345Person

BPD is just a disorder. When someone has it they experience emotions much stronger than your average person. This includes all emotions.

It's not an illness. And her actions are her own. I have BPD, but I don't go around attacking people.


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## NewlyWed2000

Anonymous Person said:


> BPD is just a disorder. When someone has it they experience emotions much stronger than your average person. This includes all emotions.
> 
> It's not an illness. And her actions are her own. I have BPD, but I don't go around attacking people.


Surprising response from someone who suffers from BPD. Have you been officially diagnosed and gone through DBT or another treatment?

I've spoken with a number of specialists who would argue there is much more to it than just what you said. However, in time and with treatment I believe she'll have control and be able to avoid attacking people.

I also don't see a huge difference between a disorder and an illness personally.


----------



## 12345Person

NewlyWed2000 said:


> Surprising response from someone who suffers from BPD. Have you been officially diagnosed and gone through DBT or another treatment?
> 
> I've spoken with a number of specialists who would argue there is much more to it than just what you said. However, in time and with treatment I believe she'll have control and be able to avoid attacking people.
> 
> I also don't see a huge difference between a disorder and an illness personally.


They cannot force you to get treatment. I'm doing fine. 

And treatment has nothing to do with her attacking you. It was her own choice. 

BPD just means, for the most part, that a person feels emotions more intensely than others. However, it has nothing to do with attacking people, that's a choice. When you're angry and feel strong emotions do you attack people?


----------



## NewlyWed2000

Anonymous Person said:


> They cannot force you to get treatment. I'm doing fine.
> 
> And treatment has nothing to do with her attacking you. It was her own choice.
> 
> BPD just means, for the most part, that a person feels emotions more intensely than others. However, it has nothing to do with attacking people, that's a choice. When you're angry and feel strong emotions do you attack people?


You are making a major generalization about BPD. I disagree with your statement, there is far more to it. Yes, very strong emotions is a part of it.

Since you volunteered it, were you officially diagnosed or do you just believe you have it?

If you are up to it, you'll find some very informative information from other posters on BPD in the first couple of pages of the thread. You'll see just from that that there is FAR more to BPD than "feeling emotions more intensely than others".


----------



## NewlyWed2000

Here's a short blurb of factual information:

Borderline personality disorder (BPD) is a *serious mental illness* marked by unstable moods, behavior, and relationships. In 1980, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual for Mental Disorders, Third Edition (DSM-III) listed BPD as a diagnosable illness for the first time. Most psychiatrists and other mental health professionals use the DSM to diagnose mental illnesses.

Because some people with severe BPD have brief psychotic episodes, experts originally thought of this illness as atypical, or borderline, versions of other mental disorders. While mental health experts now generally agree that the name "borderline personality disorder" is misleading, a more accurate term does not exist yet.

Most people who have BPD suffer from:

Problems with regulating emotions and thoughts
Impulsive and reckless behavior
Unstable relationships with other people.
People with this disorder also have high rates of co-occurring disorders, such as depression, anxiety disorders, substance abuse, and eating disorders, along with self-harm, suicidal behaviors, and completed suicides.

Feel free to read more if you are interested but as I mentioned there is much more to it than strong emotions:

NIMH · Borderline Personality Disorder


----------



## AVR1962

NewlyWed2000 said:


> I left the room after that and long story short ended up being the one to apologize for being picky about the suitcases and offering to help her with anything she needed. I’m not a pushover normally but since she was unwilling to apologize or come to me I couldn’t think of any other way to try to salvage this trip except to be kind to her and see if that turned things around. It eventually did.
> 
> We get back to the room and she’s just got this horrible attitude so I just leave her be.
> 
> I look at her, suggest we not toss blame at each other and tell her I’ll figure it out. 5 minutes later I sorted everything out. We are in great shape with plenty and nothing financially to stress about (had to make some transfers between accounts etc). Hoping we can just get back to trying to enjoy our honeymoon.
> 
> Instead she berates me saying again how irresponsible I am, how I’m screwing everything up etc which is ironic because again I’ve been the one that’s been in great fiscal shape for so long while she made poor decisions that ran her into the ground and she’s in a better financial position than she has ever been in her life now.
> 
> I just look at her and go look, I don’t know what to do. The issue is gone, I broke it down in excel to show her everything. We are ok, you can relax and enjoy now. Lets stop focusing on this stuff and get back to celebrating our marriage together. I kept asking her if we can just try and turn this around etc.
> 
> She ultimately starts telling me she’ll just leave, have her dad pick her up back home, she’ll take a taxi to the airport…. WHAT?!?!?!?


I think there might be a few things going on here. She seems to be avoiding intimacy and I personally feel that is why the ranting, it keeps you at a distance to keep her safe. 

You did the right thing by talking to her and apologizing for the luggage issue and telling her that all was fine with the finances. So many men would have just walked out and not said a word and when a man does this it compounds the issue at hand. She is dealing with some fears and she might not know exactly what fears she is facing so it is coming out weird. The best thing you can do is comfort her and assure her which it did sound like you did.

There is something she needs to work on and you addressed it with her.....she has to stop firing the cannon with these demeaning comments.....I think she is speaking from the hurt she has in her heart, or the fear she is dealing with but she has to become aware how hurtful her words can be. She has to realize that she has to find a better way to express herself and if she cannot hold back the hateful words she needs to call a time out and ask to talk when she is calmer. She also has to stop with the threats. The threats are intended to control you and she might not even realize that but something tells me down deep in her heart she had no intentions on running to daddy or jumping on an airplane. She is not fully expressing herself and what is at the core of what she is feeling.

Do not go suppress your own thoughts, talk to her. Do not continue the ping pong match when the game starts, meaning do not react to her demeaning comments with a hateful comment. This is when things become destructive. Giving her time to think is good but when you leave, always tell her that you feel you each need some time to think things thru and assure her that you will be back.

As far as the money issues.....do you know if she was raised in a family where the parents were frugal? If so, it is common for the grown child to take on that same frugal lifestyle.


----------



## 12345Person

NewlyWed2000 said:


> You are making a major generalization about BPD. I disagree with your statement, there is far more to it. Yes, very strong emotions is a part of it.
> 
> Since you volunteered it, were you officially diagnosed or do you just believe you have it?
> 
> If you are up to it, you'll find some very informative information from other posters on BPD in the first couple of pages of the thread. You'll see just from that that there is FAR more to BPD than "feeling emotions more intensely than others".


I was diagnosed in 2011.

BPD is VERY serious, but your actions are still your own.

If you want to know how it feels when negative emotions take control? An ongoing headache, there are sometimes hallucinations, and it feels like a bowling ball is tying down your forehead. My experience. It's really horrible.

However, my actions are still my own. Not everyone has a lot of self-control. 

And if your wife gets treatment it should be a main priority. Her going to college now is stupid imo. Your marriage is a wreck.


----------



## 12345Person

NewlyWed2000 said:


> One more post for you Anon:
> 
> Signs & Symptoms
> 
> According to the DSM, Fourth Edition, Text Revision (DSM-IV-TR), to be diagnosed with borderline personality disorder, a person must show an enduring pattern of behavior that includes at least five of the following symptoms:
> 
> Extreme reactions—including panic, depression, rage, or frantic actions—to abandonment, whether real or perceived
> A pattern of intense and stormy relationships with family, friends, and loved ones, often veering from extreme closeness and love (idealization) to extreme dislike or anger (devaluation)
> Distorted and unstable self-image or sense of self, which can result in sudden changes in feelings, opinions, values, or plans and goals for the future (such as school or career choices)
> Impulsive and often dangerous behaviors, such as spending sprees, unsafe sex, substance abuse, reckless driving, and binge eating
> Recurring suicidal behaviors or threats or self-harming behavior, such as cutting
> Intense and highly changeable moods, with each episode lasting from a few hours to a few days
> Chronic feelings of emptiness and/or boredom
> Inappropriate, intense anger or problems controlling anger
> Having stress-related paranoid thoughts or severe dissociative symptoms, such as feeling cut off from oneself, observing oneself from outside the body, or losing touch with reality.
> Seemingly mundane events may trigger symptoms. For example, people with BPD may feel angry and distressed over minor separations—such as vacations, business trips, or sudden changes of plans—from people to whom they feel close. Studies show that people with this disorder may see anger in an emotionally neutral face and have a stronger reaction to words with negative meanings than people who do not have the disorder.


You're wrong, actually. Psychiatrists will diagnose you with a mental disorder based on their ability, and not everyone will diagnose you the same.


----------



## NewlyWed2000

Anonymous Person said:


> I was diagnosed in 2011.
> 
> BPD is VERY serious, but your actions are still your own.
> 
> If you want to know how it feels when negative emotions take control? An ongoing headache, there are sometimes hallucinations, and it feels like a bowling ball is tying down your forehead. My experience. It's really horrible.
> 
> However, my actions are still my own. Not everyone has a lot of self-control.
> 
> And if your wife gets treatment it should be a main priority. Her going to college now is stupid imo. Your marriage is a wreck.


Hi Anon,

I agree and this is why if she refuses treatment I refuse to continue the marriage. 

I also agree that her treatment is critical. She finally found a very good specialist, one of the best in the region and will be meeting weekly. Her second meeting is this coming Wednesday and they are starting DBT treatment right away.

I agree that going back to school isn't the best idea either but she's nearly done and gave all of that up to care for her dying mother nearly 2 years ago. We will see how this quarter goes but I want to let her have some control of her life. We will see how this quarter goes -she'll be seeing the psychologist and her other counselor weekly so they will also give her feedback of which I suspect she'll listen to more than me right now.

Our marriage is a complete wreck as you stated. A day doesn't go by right now that I wish I could take back getting married. That said I'll do everything I can to be a supportive husband as long as I can -we'll see how long that is.

She gets the terrible migraines too. The challenging part is she just seems to not see things logically at all and is completely out of control. It's nearly impossible to have a conversation about anything important with her right now and I'm hoping treatment will change that quickly.

As it stands now, I let her know when things that she is saying are not ok and I'll typically remove myself from the situation. We consequently spent 75% of our time apart as she tries to instigate conflict anytime we are together. That may be the wrong choice of words, she's hurting and angry over many things and I don't think she's able to deal with these emotions and inadvertently takes them out on me. 

She's a walking time bomb -but again, treatment starts Wednesday and I'm really hoping it's going to start making an immediate impact to bring us some peace.

The way I look at it right now is that if she takes treatment seriously and it works -we will likely end up closer than most people after going through all of this. If she doesn't stick with treatment and life doesn't start to change -I'm out, period.


----------



## NewlyWed2000

Anonymous Person said:


> You're wrong, actually. Psychiatrists will diagnose you with a mental disorder based on their ability, and not everyone will diagnose you the same.


You mean the National Institute of Mental Health, our government is also wrong then right?

All of that data was pasted from their website at this specific url:

NIMH · Borderline Personality Disorder

Not sure what to tell you.


----------



## downfall69

this is from wikipedia :

Behavior[edit]

Impulsive behaviors are common, including: substance or alcohol abuse, eating disorders, unprotected sex or indiscriminate sex with multiple partners, reckless spending and reckless driving.[19] Impulsive behaviors can also include quitting jobs or relationships, running away, and self-injury.[20]
People with BPD act impulsively because it gives them immediate relief from their emotional pain.[20] However, in the long term, people with BPD suffer increased pain from the shame and guilt that follow such actions.[20] A cycle often begins in which people with BPD feel emotional pain, engage in impulsive behaviors to relieve that pain, feel shame and guilt over their actions, feel emotional pain from the shame and guilt, and then experience stronger urges to engage in impulsive behaviors to relieve the new pain.[20] As time goes on, impulsive behaviors can become an automatic response to emotional pain.[20]


good luck trying to fix that i hope you still feel as strongly as you do now after she cheats on you


----------



## NewlyWed2000

downfall69 said:


> this is from wikipedia :
> 
> Behavior[edit]
> 
> Impulsive behaviors are common, including: substance or alcohol abuse, eating disorders, unprotected sex or indiscriminate sex with multiple partners, reckless spending and reckless driving.[19] Impulsive behaviors can also include quitting jobs or relationships, running away, and self-injury.[20]
> People with BPD act impulsively because it gives them immediate relief from their emotional pain.[20] However, in the long term, people with BPD suffer increased pain from the shame and guilt that follow such actions.[20] A cycle often begins in which people with BPD feel emotional pain, engage in impulsive behaviors to relieve that pain, feel shame and guilt over their actions, feel emotional pain from the shame and guilt, and then experience stronger urges to engage in impulsive behaviors to relieve the new pain.[20] As time goes on, impulsive behaviors can become an automatic response to emotional pain.[20]
> 
> 
> good luck trying to fix that i hope you still feel as strongly as you do now after she cheats on you


1. One, with a tone like that I don't know why you are even on here trying to be "helpful".

2. You again don't know much about BPD. The indiscriminate sex etc is typically tied to low functioning BPDers, my wife is a high functioning BPDer. She's had very few sexual partners actually and ironically I've had over 10x as many as her.

Why are you posting in here with a negative tone like that when you don't even know what you are talking about? I don't mean that to be rude, just being blunt -you don't and your tone is downright rude.


----------



## downfall69

i don't mean to be rude your right i don't know you or your wife i just see a man drawing straws hoping to fix something that is near impossible to fix just trying to open your eye's a little. and by the way my ex the mother of my kids had and has BPD i stayed with her for 9 years trying to help her heal from what you call an illness. and i know first hand the end result of being with someone who has BPD. good luck


----------



## dogman

NewlyWed2000 said:


> Here's a short blurb of factual information:
> 
> Borderline personality disorder (BPD) is a *serious mental illness* marked by unstable moods, behavior, and relationships. In 1980, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual for Mental Disorders, Third Edition (DSM-III) listed BPD as a diagnosable illness for the first time. Most psychiatrists and other mental health professionals use the DSM to diagnose mental illnesses.
> 
> Because some people with severe BPD have brief psychotic episodes, experts originally thought of this illness as atypical, or borderline, versions of other mental disorders. While mental health experts now generally agree that the name "borderline personality disorder" is misleading, a more accurate term does not exist yet.
> 
> Most people who have BPD suffer from:
> 
> Problems with regulating emotions and thoughts
> Impulsive and reckless behavior
> Unstable relationships with other people.
> People with this disorder also have high rates of co-occurring disorders, such as depression, anxiety disorders, substance abuse, and eating disorders, along with self-harm, suicidal behaviors, and completed suicides.
> 
> Feel free to read more if you are interested but as I mentioned there is much more to it than strong emotions:
> 
> NIMH · Borderline Personality Disorder



Newlywed,
My wife is BPD and while you can survive it and with work she can manage it. It sucks! I didn't realize until recently that I was dealing with BPD. We just celebrated our 23rd wedding anniversary.
I just thought she was sensitive or OCD or whatever. 

The truth is it's never ending and if I was in the first year with no kids, I'd move on so fast your head would spin. 
Our situation is calm currently but the relationship is built on unfairness slanted her way always. Since I can "handle things" I always bend. 

While I'm happy with our life, I'm not happy with our relationship at all. I feel ripped off and unfairly treated. 
Could I move on now? Sure, at the loss of all I've worked for and now the possibility of her being so destroyed she hurts herself.
I feel trapped....and so will you....the more time passes the smaller the escape hatch gets, trust me.

Oh yeah! I'm a Christian too. I stand by what I've said,


----------



## PBear

Personally, I think that if your wife is actively seeking treatment, you're doing the right thing in standing by her. But I do think that perhaps you could do with some stiffening of the backbone when it comes to things like the car. And yes, as you've told her already, any more incidents of abuse towards you and she's out is a good plan too. Just don't back down on any boundaries you lay out.

Weird... I'm usually the one advocating "Get out!" . I do think you're going to have a lot of issues on the sex side, though... You may want to put some thought into how that may roll out.

C


----------



## Theseus

NewlyWed2000 said:


> I don't mean that to be rude, just being blunt -you don't and your tone is downright rude.



I think some people may seem "rude" on this forum because they are trying to emphasize how strongly they feel you are doing the wrong thing. It may look more rude because you are reading the words instead of hearing them in person. I don't know if that's the case here, I'm just pointing that out. 

Anyway, I wouldn't say you are necessarily doing the wrong thing, but I do know that if the genders were reversed, and if you were a wife whose husband who attacked you while you were sleeping, everyone would unanimously be telling you to get out.

As a Christian, I also understand your beliefs about divorce. However, *NOWHERE* in the Bible does it say you are required to live under the same roof as your wife. It's not just her physical and emotional abuse. I see red flags about how much she is going to cost you in the long run. I think you should seriously consider one or both of you moving into a separate place and then put her on a strict budget. 

You might also find this thread helpful or informative. Your thread reminded me of it. It's long, but I saw an awful lot of similarities to your situation. It's about a woman dealing with a BPD husband and she tried everything under the sun before finally walking away.


----------



## soccermom2three

Staying with her is your choice but please do not have children with her. Don't bring children into this world to be raised by a mentally ill woman.

You need to read this guy's thread:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/considering-divorce-separation/149593-possible-bottomed-out-marriage-recover.html


----------



## Uptown

Newly, thanks for returning to give us such a nicely detailed update.


NewlyWed2000 said:


> She finally found a PhD Psychologist who is well known in the area for treating this. The Psychologist said she wants to start with DBT immediately.


Newly, that's very good news. From your perspective, the problem now will be how to figure out whether she actually is making any real progress. As I mentioned on 11/4, this is not an easy task:_The problem is that, in the same way that smokers are always "quitting" every several weeks, BPDers are always dramatically "improving" every several weeks. Distinguishing real improvement from the upside of another mood cycle is hard to do, especially when you are partially blinded by love. _​


> The counselor says that she can start trying to teach me some techniques once my wife starts her therapy so I'm learning what techniques she is and how to support her with them.


Learning how to validate your W's feelings without necessarily agreeing with them can help. Yet, if her BPD traits are strong, all the validation in the world won't get you very far, IME. Those techniques are most helpful, then, with folks having mild to moderate BPD traits.


> It's tough to do kind gestures when you feel like this but I try and try at least every other day and it just seems to add fuel to the fire.


A BPDer is filled with so much self loathing that she is convinced that, once a spouse eventually realizes how empty she is inside, he will realize that she is unlovable. Hence, if your W has strong BPD traits, your efforts to prove your love will never be believed. Instead, the only effect it will have is for her to raise the bar higher on the next "test of love" she administers to you. For this reason, the sh!t testing just gets worse and worse.


> I'm not one to keep track of who gives what....


Nor will your W. If she is a BPDer, the only mental list she will maintain is the long list of all your flaws and infractions (real or imagined). And she will pull out that entire list for even the most minor of arguments. This list is important to her because it is the equivalent of a certificate attesting to her having a Harvard PhD in victimhood. It supports her false self image of always being "The Victim." 

As I noted earlier, you can forget about her having a lasting sense of appreciation, because it all will be washed aside by the next tide of emotions flooding her mind. (Several years of intensive DBT therapy, however, can largely change that if she has the ego strength to work hard in therapy.)


> I also found out about a month ago (during a very calm discussion) that she hates sex. Before we were married I couldn't keep up with her and had told her that sex was important to me. She completely led me on, only to tell me after we are married that she's always hated it....she essentially lied to me until after the marriage.


Well, yes, if you are convinced she is a narcissist or sociopath. They are very manipulating like that and are incapable of ever loving you. But you've ruled out those possibilities with your statement, "I know she loves me."

If she has strong BPD traits -- as you suspect -- it is _very unlikely_ that she deliberately deceived you about her enjoyment of sex during the courtship period. I therefore seriously doubt the validity of your perception that "she essentially lied to me until after the marriage."

As I noted earlier, a BPDer is so completely infatuated with you during the courtship period that she is absolutely convinced you are the perfect soul mate who has arrived to save her, not harm her. This infatuation therefore holds her two great fears -- abandonment and engulfment -- at bay. 

This is why BPDers typically are able to enjoy six months of extremely passionate sex and intimacy before the marriage. And this is why the sex often goes off a cliff right after the wedding. When the infatuation evaporates, her fear of engulfment returns -- with the result that she will experience a frightening feeling of being suffocated and dominated by your strong personality during intimate moments. Because a BPDer has virtually no sense of personal boundaries and has such a fragile self image, she can feel like she is evaporating into thin air during intimacy.


> Well, we'll see how long I last. It's only been 3 months.... if she wasn't willing to get help or stops, I'm out. That is the only thing keeping me in at this point.


Sounds like a plan to me. You are a good man, Newly. I hope your W chooses to work very hard in therapy. Yet, if she does not do so, I would encourage you to hold onto your anger and nurture it. Caregivers like you and me are loath to walk away from a disordered loved one. The only way we are able to do so is to use our anger like a crutch, making it possible for us to walk away from the toxic marriage. That crutch thus can be a very valuable thing. A year or two later, after you are safely away, you can kick that crutch aside.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

You need to get out. I know your beliefs, etc, but you are being abused! THIS IS GOING TO BE YOUR LIFE FOR THE NEXT 40 YEARS!! Is it worth it?? NO its not, and you know it. She can get all the help in the world, and unless she truly wants to change, it is NOT going to happen! Stop allowing this woman to abuse you, and go find someone worthy of a man like you!


----------



## Anuvia

NewlyWed2000 said:


> Little update.
> 
> She finally found a PhD Psychologist who is well known in the area for treating this. The Psychologist said she wants to start with DBT immediately.
> 
> She had another physical outburst about 3 weeks ago, literally smashing my face while I was laying in bed in the dark and I ended up with a bunch of cuts on my chest and a numb face after all was said and done.
> 
> I told her right after that I was through, done, going to file in the morning. After going back and forth I told her that if this occurred once more, any physical attack -we would at the very least no longer live together immediately. No attacks since then but we will see if it lasts.
> 
> I've also been seeing a counselor, I don't think there is much they can do for me as I have done plenty of reading now and while I'm aware of what is going on and why -it doesn't make it hurt any less. The counselor says that she can start trying to teach me some techniques once my wife starts her therapy so I'm learning what techniques she is and how to support her with them.
> 
> Some days I've been feeling a little encouraged now that she has someone, but mostly I feel pretty down. Really is a bummer that 3 months into my marriage there is zero intimacy (not just sex). Outside of her I have a fantastic life and I wish there could be a few positive things she added to it.
> 
> I've been trying to do nice things even though she constantly picks me apart. Anytime I do something nice she finds a way to attack it -or she tells me I'm just doing nice things to make her feel bad. It's tough to do kind gestures when you feel like this but I try and try at least every other day and it just seems to add fuel to the fire.
> 
> She's told me going back to school would make her very happy, so she's starting next month. That said, the counseling for her (she insists on seeing an out of network counselor in addition to the psychologist) and her schooling is another unexpected $1100/mo.
> 
> She wanted a new car b/c the Camaro we got her was "too big" and not "practical" as she puts it. I've asked that we bump down to a car somewhere around 15K or so at least for the next year while she finishes school to help offset some of the significant expenses she is incurring and I only get hell for it.
> 
> I'm not one to keep track of who gives what, but I tried to mention that her expenses are triple mine and that I'm trying to be supportive and am simply asking her to be understanding and willing to make some temporary concessions but I'm again just the big bad guy for trying to be fiscally responsible.
> 
> Every other day I want to give up, I know I'd be so much happier without her. I try so hard to make her feel good/special and wish I had a spouse who actually appreciated some of it.
> 
> Oh to add to all of it. I also found out about a month ago (during a very calm discussion) that she hates sex. Before we were married I couldn't keep up with her and had told her that sex was important to me. She completely led me on, only to tell me after we are married that she's always hated it, not just with me but with anyone -even though I'm a very giving lover, I always wait for her to orgasm first (she says that when she does she feels too vulnerable).
> 
> Bottom line, I'm supposed to look to this person to meet my sexual needs the rest of my life and I just found out she essentially lied to me until after the marriage. She told me she "wanted" it so much b/c she thought I'd be more interested in her.
> 
> Were I not a Christian I'd leave in a heartbeat but unfortunately my faith pushes me to keep trying.
> 
> She's making some efforts -even though she says she's only going to "get me off her back" but I'm trying to remain positive.
> 
> I have told her that if at some point we decide this is how we are going to spend the rest of our lives that I am finished -I cannot live like this and she shouldn't either.
> 
> Oh and on one other note, she gets mad at me b/c I talk to her family and hang out with them often but she doesn't. She says I'm taking them from her but I've told her many times she just needs to actually call them or plan something. She doesn't but then blames it on me heh.
> 
> I feel like such an idiot, I really wish I had known all of this beforehand. I would be single right now and very happy.
> 
> The most ironic part to all of this is that before I fully give my heart to someone I typically tend to analyze things. Some might call that cold hearted but I just don't want to put myself into a relationship that could be unhealthy for both of us long term.
> 
> Cancer runs in her family big time. I was scared before we got very involved because I knew I'd just die to lose someone I loved dearly 25 years down the road (her mother passed in her early 50s) and the thought of my children also going through this sounded terrible.
> 
> That said, I finally decided that spending as much time as we got married to my bestfriend, someone I could experience a love and life with that wouldn't compare to anything else was worth the very potential heartbreak down the road.
> 
> The irony in all of this right now is downright evil


You can look forward to her leaving you after she finishes school. 
Not because you're a Christian means you have to suffer.


----------



## yours4ever

er, no... No to doing nice things for unappreciative spouse...especially by rewarding bad behaviors with a CAR and a DEGREE/diploma.

That just sound like spoiling a kid right there.

Stop doing nice things, if you insist, do the nice things for you...not her.
You may go a few steps ahead loving her but A CAR and an education??? Over the top.. Thats being a door mat.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Feeling-Lonely

"""She's thrown divorce threats around a bunch since we've been married and I finally told her yesterday -stop telling me what you are going to do, just do it. You want a divorce? Go file -I can't control you and I'm tired of hearing of all these things you are "going to do to me".

To be honest I'm getting very tired of all the negativity. We have a pretty damn good life. She's 23, she has a very nice, large house in an upscale neighborhood, she has a low mile, highly modified camaro that she wanted, she has an incredible job while many are struggling to even get one and/or are stuck in deadend jobs that pay poorly. She's going back to school in winter like she wants, she can afford to go out and have fun, eat out etc and she has a husband that is pretty patient and loving (when she's not trying to attack me). 

Yet she claims she has such a horrible life, tells me she hates this life etc. She gave it up all for me; years ago when she wanted to go back to California to finish school and we were very new I told her I couldn't promise we would stay together if she went that route but that I would understand. I don't really do distance.

That said she blames me saying she stayed for me and now has this miserable life. WTF. There are so many people struggling so hard in life, it's really unfortunate -but she doesn't have a worry and lives quite well and is working towards her goals in life -WTH is the problem?

1) This is my second marriage and I don't want to fail AGAIN -especially so fast.

2) If this marriage doesn't work it will significantly damage my faith in myself to carry on a good relationship -or a marriage for that matter.

3) I'm 32 in a few months.... I want 5 years or so with my wife to enjoy before kids but women my age need to have kids or the risks go through the roof for birth defects.

4) I'm a Christian, though my vent session above probably isn't the greatest example and I'm trying so hard to make this work. I really don't believe in divorce, I believe that if I'm willing to give up I can never truly tell someone that I will stick through life together for better or worse. I'll just be another quitter like the majority of marriages in this country.""" QUOTE 

OMG You could find a woman that appreciates all your hard work!! Please tell me you at least have a pre-nup!!???

She sounds totally crazy to me, bad life?? How in the world she got that high paying job at age of 23??? 

AN audi tt, new??? I drive my H used autii tt and feel lucky to do so when I do.

Why did you marry her? Do you think you have to suffer, sacrifice your life for some reason? Be more selfish. To a self-preservation level at least. 

I honestly have no words, there are so many good women out there, Christians that would appreciate you. 

I am shocked by that spoiled little woman you call your wife, she needs help, she is young and it is going to take many years, I don't think you want to be part of that, DON'T HAVE KIDS.


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## Feeling-Lonely

This really is the craziest post I have ever read.

I have reserved feelings for Christians at least for those who feel they have to supper and sacrifice their life for what reason?


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## tmbirdy

Anon Pink said:


> What has she been diagnosed with and what meds does she currently take.
> 
> My speculation, Bi-polar disorder and she's off her meds.


If I had to guess my speculation would also be bi-polar. Look it up on the internet and see if she shows some of the signs. Medication can drastically reduce the symptoms of this mental disorder.


----------



## tmbirdy

tmbirdy said:


> If I had to guess my speculation would also be bi-polar. Look it up on the internet and see if she shows some of the signs. Medication can drastically reduce the symptoms of this mental disorder.


I guess I am a little late chiming in with my previous post, but I do want to say, good luck. This whole thing sounds tough. I would say you definitely need to stand your ground with her though.


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## Kylie84

I'm sorry but living with someone who has a mental condition will very rarely get any easier with time. My ex was bi polar and there were times his condition would over take both our lives. He never physically abused me, luckily for me. Mistreatment is one thing, physical abuse is the icing on the cake. Christian beliefs or not, this relationship is not SAFE for you.


----------



## FormerSelf

I can't speak for BPD, but I can speak for PTSD my wife has from childhood sexual abuse...not properly dealt with...and resulted in horrible intimacy and a secret sex addiction.

I don't think that your wife purposely misled you, but I think the actions and freakouts whether attributed to BPD or PTSD...not really surfacing until marriage definitely shows some degree of misrepresentation on her part.

It may be because the act of marriage, the commitment of lifelong intimacy...where there is an expectation of deep bonding may be way above her coping skill. It just sounds like to me that she isn't emotionally ready for marriage...and is in the act of sabotaging it for some self-protective measures. Sure, she is apologizing a lot, but something keeps triggering her to return to physically and verbally lash out...as she may be very well in a state of constant hypervigilance and survival--wrought on marriage itself. She is going to push you away to maintain her sense of safety, but she is going to pull you back in to not be abandoned.

It may seem bewildering...especially when she didn't display it nearly as much in the courtship and then you were having sex before marriage. But married, committed sex is emotional bonding...and those who fear intimacy are those who have been deeply wounded. Women like this will have casual sex...giving off the illusion...but sometimes that is just a tool to draw partners in...to build a form of security to establish the relationship, a survival tool in term of a form of attachment disorder...but there is no maturity left to go on from there...because to her, intimacy, may feel like a gun to her head. The idea of attachment is tantamount to the fear of death...so she is going to struggle probably forever to be able to reach that pure place of trust.

I am a believer too, so I understand your sense of duty to try to overcome this. I have done the same. But I think you need to work very closely with a counselor to continue to establish the healthiest of boundaries...such as ticking to your guns about no more physical abuse. I also suggest financial counseling...as it sounds to me she isn't thinking clearly about money and has the capacity to destroy you that way if she ha sthis magical thinking that getting a new car and a shiny new college degree will make her "happy." They won't...and she will blame you if you let her.

She is out of control...and the only way that this is going to work is if you throw down the hammer, set those tough boundaries...and do not back away from them. I feel like she has completely misrepresented herself enough for you to have an annulment...but I didn't do that either...except down the road, she did destroy us financially, cheated on me...and then felt justified to blame me the entire way. i didn't have the experience, the knowledge, the support...like there is collectively on this forum...which helped me turn things around years and tears later. So be prepared to stand your ground and fight.


----------



## LifeIsBeautiful42

Hi NewlyWed,
Everybody has an opinion, right or wrong, and the important one is yours and the choice you make. Mine started about 2 years ago. The hope is that things will get better, and when it seems to, be prepared for the U-turns. Something that I read, think of their emotions like a swinging pendulum. Everyone experiences changing emotions, and most are able to regulate the swing pretty well. For them, it's like a pendulum in the gusting wind; out of control. Yeah and being the spouse, we get the brunt of it even though we didn't cause it.


----------



## NewlyWed2000

Hey Everyone,

It's been a few years and one thing I like about this place is that it's completely anonymous. It's a great place to share your thoughts and get a lot of insight from many others. I want to start by thanking everyone for all of the input thus far.

That said, I thought I would come back and recollect some of what has happened, where we are now and some of my thoughts.

Long story short, we got her back into school awhile back. Things did get much worse, she got very physically abusive and I was bloody and bruised a number of times because I didn't want to fight back and hurt her. The good news is that it's been over a year since the last physical violence and she appears to have learned not to go there. Seeing positive progress is always motivating.

Her time in school however was very difficult. She told me often that I/our marriage had to take the back seat and that we were not her priority, school was. She often lashed out and said very painful things and as I mentioned was physical at times as well. I was amazed that we made it through all of this but as of June 2015 she was a graduate and we were to have our marriage back.

During her time in school I think we both developed unhealthy habits. We grew accustomed to not seeing each other or doing anything together. I often played video games a lot as an outlet. 

When she finished, we had some of that to work through. I've gotten much better but sometimes I catch myself playing a game too long -fortunately I'm aware of it and conscientiously addressing it.

I told her when she finished that I really wanted to focus on us, to build our relationship's foundation. Within short order she told me she wanted to go back to school because she was unhappy with all the free time and felt she needed to get her masters. This caused some obvious angst as I felt she was immediately looking for something other than us to focus on again. Fortunately she started to get some promotions at work and that seemed to alleviate that need to some degree. 

The challenge though was that sometimes I was playing games too much and when I wasn't, she would be glued to her tv shows and I couldn't get her to do something with me. While all of this was tough I told her (and myself) that we had some stuff to get through after all we'd dealt with and that we had to be realistic and understand it was going to take time, patience and understanding to get through it. This really started to help me and I started just looking at each day as another day, there were good ones and bad ones but the bad ones were just that, a bad day -not the end of the world.

We booked a big vacation to Europe, a Mediterranean Cruise out of Venice. Leading up to that, she got into Beach Body. She was excited because she didn't like her work that much, she was doing big things but she wasn't passionate about the type of work and this she felt had the potential to make money so she could work from home. 

I told her if she made nothing but it was what motivated her to live healthier and eat better that I was all for it. This however became her new focus and again I quickly jumped to the back burner. She would stay up until 2am most nights "working" on this, she wouldn't ever come to bed with me or do anything. She would make dinner but we'd usually eat separately. 

I started to complain and said hey, I want to be supportive here but I don't want to trade school for beach body. Can you please maintain some balance and fit me in so we can work on us too? She got very angry at me for that and said I wasn't being supportive and that this was something that made her very happy so I shouldn't say anything. Well I kept complaining and there was a lot of fights on the topic. 

Then we had vacation, vacation was AMAZING. I felt like once you took away all the distractions we had prior that we found ourselves. We had fun, we connected, we were reasonable with each other if we disagreed on things -it was bliss for 2 and a half weeks.

Then we came back and she immediately dove back into her Beach Body stuff. Again we fought, I told her I wanted to spend time together and she got mad. She would say that I played games so I was being hypocritical. I told her I was aware of the game issue and had tried to be much better at it and that I'd drop it anytime if she wanted to spend time together. She always seems to throw something at me like this instead of addressing the fact that she's making a mistake -THEN she often tells me how everything is always HER fault while she's busy going down this huge list of everything I'm doing wrong -yeah it doesn't make much sense.

Anyway, she started finding some time for me and I started to feel better. I took a new job and am making significantly more and ironically, am working with the organization she's always dreamed of working for. As a result, I setup a meeting for her so she could see about getting into their organization (she's a rockstar in the workplace and now has a stellar resume). 

I told her that she's in a good place right now so to take time and find the right job within this organization and that it will come since she has the degree for it and now is being networked internally at a high level. I also told her that I'm ok with her taking a pay cut to go there now that I'm doing better.

Recently before anything bad started happening I'd been feeling more and more motivated to express how I feel to her. Dozen roses with a candle and a card that I poured my heart out to her on when she returned from a long business trip, giving her frequent words of affirmation and trying to find new things we could do together.

When we started dating it appeared we had all this stuff in common but now she does nothing but beach body or watches tv. I've never been into guns but we started going to the range together to try something new, i enjoyed it but she gave up on it quickly. I've continued to do it even though she won't go with me.

I've tried to get her out to do the silly little Pokemon game. I've never been into Pokemon but I figured it'd be a silly game we could go walk around doing and maybe have some fun.... No again.

We use to go to this exotic car meet and have a lot of friends there we haven't seen in awhile so I tried getting her to come out with me to that again... Nope.

We have a bike now, she at first told me she loved riding with me. Personally I love it because she's normally glued to beach body / facebook so I get time with her with her arms around me, no phone, just the two of us out riding enjoying the beautiful scenery. We have had amazing weather and I've asked if she would like to go for a ride many times. No every time.

I'm going somewhere with this, just wait 

So we are on our way to church one morning and she's talking about another couple we are close with having issues and how she's going to let the wife vent to her later that day. We know them very well and I have a feeling I know what's wrong and share some of it.

Now let me caveat here, we haven't been arguing a whole lot, I've been doing a lot of thoughtful things, giving lots of words of affirmation and making many attempts to do things with her. I'm literally feeling that things are improving quite a bit. Sure we have plenty of work left but we are making progress and I know we'll get there.

Well she blows me away by responding to our conversation about them going "Well they are doing WAY better than us". I go huh? How did you and I even become a part of this/is this some competition? I ask her why she would say that and she tells me that we have nothing in common and don't do anything together.

Now at first I get LIVID, I don't let it out but I'm fuming inside after everything I've been trying to do and how she's just repetitively shot me down. I hold it in and think about it while at church. I think to myself, she likes creative artsy stuff and while I don't, I do like photography and we've talked about doing a class before -why not do that? I also reflect on the fact that we both played soccer growing up extensively. So we get out of church and I suggest we do one of those -her response is those are YOUR ideas, things YOU like....

Ok.... So I ask her, well, what do you have in mind then and she quickly responds with "I don't know".... Ok.... I'm getting pretty angry now, you complain, you shoot my ideas down which I KNOW you actually do like to some degree and you aren't willing to provide any yourself???

She tells me we have NOTHING in common. I look at her and go what do you mean? When we were dating you told me how you were really into cars because of your brother and dad. We've always had fun doing the events with our friends, track days, going for drives with the top down, rides on the bike etc. That's one thing right off the bat. She responds with "No, I just said that because we were dating and that's what you are suppose to do when you are dating". 

I looked at her and said NO, that is NOT what you are suppose to do, you are suppose to be honest about what you like/don't like and go from there.

I look at her and go ok, look I've tried getting you into a number of new things, I'm trying new things I've never been into and I even do them even after you say you don't want to. What bothers me is that I don't control you, you are free to do whatever you want but all of your spare time you either watch tv or do beach body stuff..... You do NOTHING and I feel like you are upset about that and taking it out on me which is unfair. I want to do stuff with you, I've been trying.

So she says fine, just pick something and I'll do it. I say to her, no, if I do that you'll say it's "my" idea and give me a hard time over it. I want you to be a part of choosing what we do. She just says she doesn't know and walks off.

Later I'm talking to my buddy who's in that relationship that's having some issues and one of the things he complains about is that they only have had sex 9 times in 3 months. I laugh because we have no kids and they have a 9 yr old, 10 yr old and 1.5 yr old and they are doing more than double what we get. Then I jokingly tell the wife (she had cooled off at this point) "Honey, we really got to pick our game up, with the kids they are crushing us in the sack". She gets furious and says to me "I'm sorry, I don't like sex, I'm not attracted to you and I don't like my body (even though she's gotten herself into fantastic shape).

Now let me caveat, I'm not a "10" but I know I'm a good looking guy and her statement doesn't make me feel unattractive but what DOES hurt is my wife saying that to me. I'm a little out of shape, about 10-15lbs but I still get plenty of attention when I'm out and about and she's been in far worse shape than I am now when I've been super fit and I never said anything like that to her.

Also, when we were dating she made a big deal about how I wouldn't put out enough and now she again reaffirms she hates sex.

I'm upset b/c basically she lied, about A LOT of stuff while we were dating.

Anyway, as she leaves I start thinking and I tell her that I'm sorry for my tone while we were talking. I tell her that if we think about it we were arguing about SPENDING TIME TOGETHER! Which is AWESOME! I tell her that we should both laugh at ourselves, be thankful that we were arguing about that, it could be much worse. Recognize we both love each other very much and that when she gets home we can pick something to start doing together -a class or a sports league.

Her response to me floored me. She says yeah we both love each other but I think we can agree that neither of us is "In Love" with the other..... I say wait a minute, I am very much in love with you, what are you talking about. She then goes on to tell me that she isn't in love with me, that she isn't sure she wants to work on the marriage and that she doesn't even know how to for that matter.

All the little stuff is, little stuff, but at this point I'm struggling with a few things:

You aren't attracted to me
You aren't you want to work on this marriage so clearly it's not that important to you
You aren't in love with me

WOW! Ok, so after some back and forth of her basically explaining I don't support her, manipulate her etc I go ok, if you think you'll be happier without me we should probably get an official separation for 6 months. Lets talk when you get home about logistics. 

She comes home and basically says look I just want to have kids and a family with you and I feel like by you saying we need a couple years before we do that you are putting off what I need/want. My mom died in her 50s so I need to have kids soon or I'll miss out on a bunch of their life and I want a family with you but you don't seem to care about what I want.

She says a lot of other stuff that doesn't make sense. She feels I manipulate her with purchases so I ask her to take us through it and we go through the last 5 major purchases in the last 2.5 years and she goes well yeah you've been good but BEFORE that there are unresolved issues I can't forgive you for???? I say to her, you beat me bloody and bruised because I wouldn't fight back and I've forgiven you for that -how int he world are you unable to forgive me for some vehicle purchases 3 years ago -especially when you have 5 since that were great????

I basically tell her that before kids I need to know we have a strong foundation and have invested a lot into each other so that we can model what a good marriage looks like to children. She goes ok, great things are good i'm sorry etc.

I know I'm all over the place here, so much is going on and I feel like I'm starting to lose my mind. 

Long and short, we have a heart to heart, she says she didn't understand where I was coming from and says she now believes I understand her and that she's excited to work on us, that her mom got sick a week from today 5 years ago today and it influenced some of her emotions and that she's sorry.... Ok...

So, less than a week later, we spent the day with her family which is something she said she wanted more of and we are doing it again tomorrow. After leaving her families we go to the store -she was looking at a couch online she liked and I told her I'd seen one like that I could show her so we go look at it and her response is "you thought I liked THIS?? This isn't what I want and I don't know why you thought it was based on what I said" Ok... I just thought I'd show it to you because it sounded somewhat similar.

Then we go look at overhead canopies, I'm doing a track day on September 3rd and the family is coming for rides etc and want to make sure they have shade from the sun. I point out to her that we have been leaving the dog outside and it's been in the mid 90s and that until we find a permanent solution outside we could even use this thing out there for a bit to give him some more shade -at least when it's really hot. She goes no way, then adds " I won't have my yard looking tacky like that"

So she's been making these rude little jabs, been short with me since we left (which she was the one ready to leave), I'm feeling confused as I've done nothing to her so I go ok, well we can leave. As we are headed to the car she goes "so what do you want to do?". I tell her that she seems irritated with me and that I don't know why, I feel uncomfortable and maybe we should just head home.

Instead of apologizing or explaining she just goes fine, we never do anything together, it's pathetic really. I tell her we do just fine when we are being respectful to each other and that I felt she was being unnecessarily rude to me tonight. She asks how, I explain and I can tell she understands but she just blows it off and goes yeah well we can't do anything together, our relationship is a disaster etc.

We are sitting in the driveway with the top down and she starts raising her voice significantly so I tell her that if she's going to do that I'm pulling into the garage and shutting the door so the neighbors don't have to hear it. She gets pissed saying I'm rude.

Then she goes on this binge and goes you know what, we can't do anything together, it's not worth being unhappy, how long do you try before giving up? She says we both said we shouldn't get married before we did (I don't recall this) then immediately after saying this she tells me she frequently thinks about how her life would be if she said no to me when I proposed......

At this point I'm pretty much done, I tell her that I think she wants out, she keeps bringing all this stuff up and ultimately I think she just wants out but doesn't want to be the bad guy. I tell her that I believe in marriage and I won't give up, I'm not going to end it if that's what she's trying to get me to do. I tell her that everyone in this country gives up on difficult things too easily and many don't take marraige very seriously. I do, those vows mean something to me and if I give up when it's tough what does that say about me?

She goes so what, you will just be miserable forever? I tell her no, it means you FIGHT for your marriage, even if it's hard you try, you work through it and if you both do that, you'll get there and you'll be stronger than you were having gone through it.

Anyway I'm just confused at this point.

I've sacrificed my needs/wants in our marriage for years for her, I've supported her in everything she has wanted to do.
I've tried repeatedly to do things with her and to have quality time together but she complains that we DON'T.

Her recent statements are screwing with my values as frankly I want a woman that can appreciate a good guy and a good life and she's putting thoughts into my head I'm struggling to deal with with some of the things she is saying to me.

I try to do all the immaterial things with her (quality time, words of affirmation, support what she wants to do, etc), and on the material side, we are in the top 3% income wise (I don't say that to boast, only for perspective) and have very little debt so we have the means to do a lot of the enjoyable stuff and no financial stress. 

I want to have a family, I want to have kids etc in the next 2-3 years. I'm 34 and don't want to put it off much longer but I absolutely can't have kids with someone like this who changes how they feel about our marriage every 6 months to a year. Just to be clear, I recognize having children with her is bad so I won't go do that to "fix" things, I know it would only make things worse.

Just feeling really down right now and out of options. I've got most of my life together in a pretty good place, I just have a wife that's severely broken and is blaming her unhappiness/issues on me instead of owning them and dealing with them. 

She literally told me I shouldn't spend my life unhappy with her. I told her I'm happy and that if I was single I'd be happy -I don't need another person to make me happy nor do I expect them to be responsible for my own happiness.....

All that said, this hurts a lot and it's impacting my work a bit which really bothers me. I don't know how to keep myself in a good place right now, nor how to deal with her. If she can recognize that she has some major issues that don't involve me that she needs to work through to find her happiness and she'll stop blaming me / using me as a crutch that is keeping her from her "happy" I know things could turn around. Issue is, I highly doubt she'll do that.

PS. Multiple counselors ruled out BPD for her.


----------



## BobSimmons

NewlyWed2000 said:


> Hey Everyone,
> 
> It's been a few years and one thing I like about this place is that it's completely anonymous. It's a great place to share your thoughts and get a lot of insight from many others. I want to start by thanking everyone for all of the input thus far.
> 
> That said, I thought I would come back and recollect some of what has happened, where we are now and some of my thoughts.
> 
> Long story short, we got her back into school awhile back. Things did get much worse, she got very physically abusive and I was bloody and bruised a number of times because I didn't want to fight back and hurt her. The good news is that it's been over a year since the last physical violence and she appears to have learned not to go there. Seeing positive progress is always motivating.
> 
> Her time in school however was very difficult. She told me often that I/our marriage had to take the back seat and that we were not her priority, school was. She often lashed out and said very painful things and as I mentioned was physical at times as well. I was amazed that we made it through all of this but as of June 2015 she was a graduate and we were to have our marriage back.
> 
> During her time in school I think we both developed unhealthy habits. We grew accustomed to not seeing each other or doing anything together. I often played video games a lot as an outlet.
> 
> When she finished, we had some of that to work through. I've gotten much better but sometimes I catch myself playing a game too long -fortunately I'm aware of it and conscientiously addressing it.
> 
> I told her when she finished that I really wanted to focus on us, to build our relationship's foundation. Within short order she told me she wanted to go back to school because she was unhappy with all the free time and felt she needed to get her masters. This caused some obvious angst as I felt she was immediately looking for something other than us to focus on again. Fortunately she started to get some promotions at work and that seemed to alleviate that need to some degree.
> 
> The challenge though was that sometimes I was playing games too much and when I wasn't, she would be glued to her tv shows and I couldn't get her to do something with me. While all of this was tough I told her (and myself) that we had some stuff to get through after all we'd dealt with and that we had to be realistic and understand it was going to take time, patience and understanding to get through it. This really started to help me and I started just looking at each day as another day, there were good ones and bad ones but the bad ones were just that, a bad day -not the end of the world.
> 
> We booked a big vacation to Europe, a Mediterranean Cruise out of Venice. Leading up to that, she got into Beach Body. She was excited because she didn't like her work that much, she was doing big things but she wasn't passionate about the type of work and this she felt had the potential to make money so she could work from home.
> 
> I told her if she made nothing but it was what motivated her to live healthier and eat better that I was all for it. This however became her new focus and again I quickly jumped to the back burner. She would stay up until 2am most nights "working" on this, she wouldn't ever come to bed with me or do anything. She would make dinner but we'd usually eat separately.
> 
> I started to complain and said hey, I want to be supportive here but I don't want to trade school for beach body. Can you please maintain some balance and fit me in so we can work on us too? She got very angry at me for that and said I wasn't being supportive and that this was something that made her very happy so I shouldn't say anything. Well I kept complaining and there was a lot of fights on the topic.
> 
> Then we had vacation, vacation was AMAZING. I felt like once you took away all the distractions we had prior that we found ourselves. We had fun, we connected, we were reasonable with each other if we disagreed on things -it was bliss for 2 and a half weeks.
> 
> Then we came back and she immediately dove back into her Beach Body stuff. Again we fought, I told her I wanted to spend time together and she got mad. She would say that I played games so I was being hypocritical. I told her I was aware of the game issue and had tried to be much better at it and that I'd drop it anytime if she wanted to spend time together. She always seems to throw something at me like this instead of addressing the fact that she's making a mistake -THEN she often tells me how everything is always HER fault while she's busy going down this huge list of everything I'm doing wrong -yeah it doesn't make much sense.
> 
> Anyway, she started finding some time for me and I started to feel better. I took a new job and am making significantly more and ironically, am working with the organization she's always dreamed of working for. As a result, I setup a meeting for her so she could see about getting into their organization (she's a rockstar in the workplace and now has a stellar resume).
> 
> I told her that she's in a good place right now so to take time and find the right job within this organization and that it will come since she has the degree for it and now is being networked internally at a high level. I also told her that I'm ok with her taking a pay cut to go there now that I'm doing better.
> 
> Recently before anything bad started happening I'd been feeling more and more motivated to express how I feel to her. Dozen roses with a candle and a card that I poured my heart out to her on when she returned from a long business trip, giving her frequent words of affirmation and trying to find new things we could do together.
> 
> When we started dating it appeared we had all this stuff in common but now she does nothing but beach body or watches tv. I've never been into guns but we started going to the range together to try something new, i enjoyed it but she gave up on it quickly. I've continued to do it even though she won't go with me.
> 
> I've tried to get her out to do the silly little Pokemon game. I've never been into Pokemon but I figured it'd be a silly game we could go walk around doing and maybe have some fun.... No again.
> 
> We use to go to this exotic car meet and have a lot of friends there we haven't seen in awhile so I tried getting her to come out with me to that again... Nope.
> 
> We have a bike now, she at first told me she loved riding with me. Personally I love it because she's normally glued to beach body / facebook so I get time with her with her arms around me, no phone, just the two of us out riding enjoying the beautiful scenery. We have had amazing weather and I've asked if she would like to go for a ride many times. No every time.
> 
> I'm going somewhere with this, just wait
> 
> So we are on our way to church one morning and she's talking about another couple we are close with having issues and how she's going to let the wife vent to her later that day. We know them very well and I have a feeling I know what's wrong and share some of it.
> 
> Now let me caveat here, we haven't been arguing a whole lot, I've been doing a lot of thoughtful things, giving lots of words of affirmation and making many attempts to do things with her. I'm literally feeling that things are improving quite a bit. Sure we have plenty of work left but we are making progress and I know we'll get there.
> 
> Well she blows me away by responding to our conversation about them going "Well they are doing WAY better than us". I go huh? How did you and I even become a part of this/is this some competition? I ask her why she would say that and she tells me that we have nothing in common and don't do anything together.
> 
> Now at first I get LIVID, I don't let it out but I'm fuming inside after everything I've been trying to do and how she's just repetitively shot me down. I hold it in and think about it while at church. I think to myself, she likes creative artsy stuff and while I don't, I do like photography and we've talked about doing a class before -why not do that? I also reflect on the fact that we both played soccer growing up extensively. So we get out of church and I suggest we do one of those -her response is those are YOUR ideas, things YOU like....
> 
> Ok.... So I ask her, well, what do you have in mind then and she quickly responds with "I don't know".... Ok.... I'm getting pretty angry now, you complain, you shoot my ideas down which I KNOW you actually do like to some degree and you aren't willing to provide any yourself???
> 
> She tells me we have NOTHING in common. I look at her and go what do you mean? When we were dating you told me how you were really into cars because of your brother and dad. We've always had fun doing the events with our friends, track days, going for drives with the top down, rides on the bike etc. That's one thing right off the bat. She responds with "No, I just said that because we were dating and that's what you are suppose to do when you are dating".
> 
> I looked at her and said NO, that is NOT what you are suppose to do, you are suppose to be honest about what you like/don't like and go from there.
> 
> I look at her and go ok, look I've tried getting you into a number of new things, I'm trying new things I've never been into and I even do them even after you say you don't want to. What bothers me is that I don't control you, you are free to do whatever you want but all of your spare time you either watch tv or do beach body stuff..... You do NOTHING and I feel like you are upset about that and taking it out on me which is unfair. I want to do stuff with you, I've been trying.
> 
> So she says fine, just pick something and I'll do it. I say to her, no, if I do that you'll say it's "my" idea and give me a hard time over it. I want you to be a part of choosing what we do. She just says she doesn't know and walks off.
> 
> Later I'm talking to my buddy who's in that relationship that's having some issues and one of the things he complains about is that they only have had sex 9 times in 3 months. I laugh because we have no kids and they have a 9 yr old, 10 yr old and 1.5 yr old and they are doing more than double what we get. Then I jokingly tell the wife (she had cooled off at this point) "Honey, we really got to pick our game up, with the kids they are crushing us in the sack". She gets furious and says to me "I'm sorry, I don't like sex, I'm not attracted to you and I don't like my body (even though she's gotten herself into fantastic shape).
> 
> Now let me caveat, I'm not a "10" but I know I'm a good looking guy and her statement doesn't make me feel unattractive but what DOES hurt is my wife saying that to me. I'm a little out of shape, about 10-15lbs but I still get plenty of attention when I'm out and about and she's been in far worse shape than I am now when I've been super fit and I never said anything like that to her.
> 
> Also, when we were dating she made a big deal about how I wouldn't put out enough and now she again reaffirms she hates sex.
> 
> I'm upset b/c basically she lied, about A LOT of stuff while we were dating.
> 
> Anyway, as she leaves I start thinking and I tell her that I'm sorry for my tone while we were talking. I tell her that if we think about it we were arguing about SPENDING TIME TOGETHER! Which is AWESOME! I tell her that we should both laugh at ourselves, be thankful that we were arguing about that, it could be much worse. Recognize we both love each other very much and that when she gets home we can pick something to start doing together -a class or a sports league.
> 
> Her response to me floored me. She says yeah we both love each other but I think we can agree that neither of us is "In Love" with the other..... I say wait a minute, I am very much in love with you, what are you talking about. She then goes on to tell me that she isn't in love with me, that she isn't sure she wants to work on the marriage and that she doesn't even know how to for that matter.
> 
> All the little stuff is, little stuff, but at this point I'm struggling with a few things:
> 
> You aren't attracted to me
> You aren't you want to work on this marriage so clearly it's not that important to you
> You aren't in love with me
> 
> WOW! Ok, so after some back and forth of her basically explaining I don't support her, manipulate her etc I go ok, if you think you'll be happier without me we should probably get an official separation for 6 months. Lets talk when you get home about logistics.
> 
> She comes home and basically says look I just want to have kids and a family with you and I feel like by you saying we need a couple years before we do that you are putting off what I need/want. My mom died in her 50s so I need to have kids soon or I'll miss out on a bunch of their life and I want a family with you but you don't seem to care about what I want.
> 
> She says a lot of other stuff that doesn't make sense. She feels I manipulate her with purchases so I ask her to take us through it and we go through the last 5 major purchases in the last 2.5 years and she goes well yeah you've been good but BEFORE that there are unresolved issues I can't forgive you for???? I say to her, you beat me bloody and bruised because I wouldn't fight back and I've forgiven you for that -how int he world are you unable to forgive me for some vehicle purchases 3 years ago -especially when you have 5 since that were great????
> 
> I basically tell her that before kids I need to know we have a strong foundation and have invested a lot into each other so that we can model what a good marriage looks like to children. She goes ok, great things are good i'm sorry etc.
> 
> I know I'm all over the place here, so much is going on and I feel like I'm starting to lose my mind.
> 
> Long and short, we have a heart to heart, she says she didn't understand where I was coming from and says she now believes I understand her and that she's excited to work on us, that her mom got sick a week from today 5 years ago today and it influenced some of her emotions and that she's sorry.... Ok...
> 
> So, less than a week later, we spent the day with her family which is something she said she wanted more of and we are doing it again tomorrow. After leaving her families we go to the store -she was looking at a couch online she liked and I told her I'd seen one like that I could show her so we go look at it and her response is "you thought I liked THIS?? This isn't what I want and I don't know why you thought it was based on what I said" Ok... I just thought I'd show it to you because it sounded somewhat similar.
> 
> Then we go look at overhead canopies, I'm doing a track day on September 3rd and the family is coming for rides etc and want to make sure they have shade from the sun. I point out to her that we have been leaving the dog outside and it's been in the mid 90s and that until we find a permanent solution outside we could even use this thing out there for a bit to give him some more shade -at least when it's really hot. She goes no way, then adds " I won't have my yard looking tacky like that"
> 
> So she's been making these rude little jabs, been short with me since we left (which she was the one ready to leave), I'm feeling confused as I've done nothing to her so I go ok, well we can leave. As we are headed to the car she goes "so what do you want to do?". I tell her that she seems irritated with me and that I don't know why, I feel uncomfortable and maybe we should just head home.
> 
> Instead of apologizing or explaining she just goes fine, we never do anything together, it's pathetic really. I tell her we do just fine when we are being respectful to each other and that I felt she was being unnecessarily rude to me tonight. She asks how, I explain and I can tell she understands but she just blows it off and goes yeah well we can't do anything together, our relationship is a disaster etc.
> 
> We are sitting in the driveway with the top down and she starts raising her voice significantly so I tell her that if she's going to do that I'm pulling into the garage and shutting the door so the neighbors don't have to hear it. She gets pissed saying I'm rude.
> 
> Then she goes on this binge and goes you know what, we can't do anything together, it's not worth being unhappy, how long do you try before giving up? She says we both said we shouldn't get married before we did (I don't recall this) then immediately after saying this she tells me she frequently thinks about how her life would be if she said no to me when I proposed......
> 
> At this point I'm pretty much done, I tell her that I think she wants out, she keeps bringing all this stuff up and ultimately I think she just wants out but doesn't want to be the bad guy. I tell her that I believe in marriage and I won't give up, I'm not going to end it if that's what she's trying to get me to do. I tell her that everyone in this country gives up on difficult things too easily and many don't take marraige very seriously. I do, those vows mean something to me and if I give up when it's tough what does that say about me?
> 
> She goes so what, you will just be miserable forever? I tell her no, it means you FIGHT for your marriage, even if it's hard you try, you work through it and if you both do that, you'll get there and you'll be stronger than you were having gone through it.
> 
> Anyway I'm just confused at this point.
> 
> I've sacrificed my needs/wants in our marriage for years for her, I've supported her in everything she has wanted to do.
> I've tried repeatedly to do things with her and to have quality time together but she complains that we DON'T.
> 
> Her recent statements are screwing with my values as frankly I want a woman that can appreciate a good guy and a good life and she's putting thoughts into my head I'm struggling to deal with with some of the things she is saying to me.
> 
> I try to do all the immaterial things with her (quality time, words of affirmation, support what she wants to do, etc), and on the material side, we are in the top 3% income wise (I don't say that to boast, only for perspective) and have very little debt so we have the means to do a lot of the enjoyable stuff and no financial stress.
> 
> I want to have a family, I want to have kids etc in the next 2-3 years. I'm 34 and don't want to put it off much longer but I absolutely can't have kids with someone like this who changes how they feel about our marriage every 6 months to a year. Just to be clear, I recognize having children with her is bad so I won't go do that to "fix" things, I know it would only make things worse.
> 
> Just feeling really down right now and out of options. I've got most of my life together in a pretty good place, I just have a wife that's severely broken and is blaming her unhappiness/issues on me instead of owning them and dealing with them.
> 
> She literally told me I shouldn't spend my life unhappy with her. I told her I'm happy and that if I was single I'd be happy -I don't need another person to make me happy nor do I expect them to be responsible for my own happiness.....
> 
> All that said, this hurts a lot and it's impacting my work a bit which really bothers me. I don't know how to keep myself in a good place right now, nor how to deal with her. If she can recognize that she has some major issues that don't involve me that she needs to work through to find her happiness and she'll stop blaming me / using me as a crutch that is keeping her from her "happy" I know things could turn around. Issue is, I highly doubt she'll do that.
> 
> PS. Multiple counselors ruled out BPD for her.


Dude you were told to leave years ago and years later you're still here complaining about the same stuff, and you even want to bring kids into this mess.

No pity whatsoever. If you don't look out for yourself nobody can, Can't complain when life keeps biting you in the ass time and time again.

Inaction means unfortunately for you, you brought this on yourself.


----------



## becareful2

NewlyWed2000 said:


> I'm going somewhere with this, just wait



No, you didn't. Your issues are unresolved and you're still in a miserable marriage with a manipulative woman who has the emotional maturity of a child.


----------



## Satya

NW, when it comes to the things you have been dealing with for now years (and at one point it was mere weeks/months... and many posters here urged you to leave *then*) you have let yourself down above anyone else. All of *your* rationalization, armchair psychology, reading, understanding, faith and compassion is not going to change *another person's behavior.* Her behavior was hers to change... and it takes *time* for you to know whether she is truly on the path or merely telling you what you want to hear. BPDers are magicians and master manipulators.... and if not BPD, there is definitely something going on with your wife.

Well, now she has a beach bod, which she was working toward in preparation for leaving you. Sorry, but that's my opinion - especially so since you did not join her in the efforts. Any story here about one spouse that starts to workout/diet heavily when it's not a mutual effort is just preparing themselves cosmetically for the next person.

As I read through all of the original posts, the one trait I see clear as day is that you were and are a Codependent. Try reading about that one. You and your wife are like magnets to each other. You try desperately, endlessly, tirelessly, to save her and she takes all you give, gobbles it up, and spits it out in your face. Then you try harder to give her more ammunition.... because you have this desperate need to save her.

NW, you don't need her or anyone else. Right now, you need you. You have been the biggest stumbling block to your own success in life. You have been neglecting your own self-care and trying to fulfill your need by trying to be a rescuer. You're not closer to feeling fulfilled, are you?

I'm very sorry for what you have been dealing with, for as long as you have. It is a terrible ordeal that I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. As soon as you started writing about her abuse, I was mentally done with your post. Think long and hard about the children she wants to have with you... not out of love for you, but out of necessity. She will find a way to make it happen, with or without your consent. 

Lastly, think on this: If instead of you, one of your sons was in your shoes, dealing with a woman precisely like your wife, beating him and emotionally abusing him, would you tell him to keep trying to save her, no matter what the cost? Really think.


----------



## aine

I'm sorry you are still in an emotionally abusive relationship. Start doing the 180 on her, start detaching and start looking at your self and bettering yourself, leave her out of it.


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## 3Xnocharm

Holy crap. Divorce her already. Get on with your life. Three years and you are no further than you were. Time to let it go.


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## Blondilocks

"to find her happiness and she'll stop blaming me / using me as a crutch that is keeping her from her "happy" *I know* things could turn around."

You don't know diddly. All you know is what she has shown you. Continuously for your entire marriage. Face it - she's shown you who she is and you refuse to believe it.

Any further investment in this marriage will be a waste for you. But, I predict you'll keep hanging on and hoping that she'll eventually turn into a real, live human being. It's either stubbornness or stupidity on your part and neither looks good on people.


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## bandit.45

Stay married. Don't change anything. You deserve her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Roselyn

Career woman here with a Ph.D., 36 years married (first marriage for the both of us), and no children by choice. You have been married for 3 years and nothing has change.  From your posts I get: hardly any sex, physically abusive wife who has bloodied you, psychological abuse, and wife have misled you on who she is as "hating sex" after presenting herself as highly active.

Your situation will not change. There are many, many challenges and hardships in a marriage. You won't be up to that challenge with a wife such as yours. You are miserable. I get that you want your marriage to work as this is your second one. However, this is PURGATORY for you on Earth. Your choice to live this way. I see no happy ending in your life in this marriage. See a psychologist yourself and place your mindset in the direction where your life goals should be. I couldn't live the life you have.


----------



## NewlyWed2000

Satya said:


> NW, when it comes to the things you have been dealing with for now years (and at one point it was mere weeks/months... and many posters here urged you to leave *then*) you have let yourself down above anyone else. All of *your* rationalization, armchair psychology, reading, understanding, faith and compassion is not going to change *another person's behavior.* Her behavior was hers to change... and it takes *time* for you to know whether she is truly on the path or merely telling you what you want to hear. BPDers are magicians and master manipulators.... and if not BPD, there is definitely something going on with your wife.
> 
> Well, now she has a beach bod, which she was working toward in preparation for leaving you. Sorry, but that's my opinion - especially so since you did not join her in the efforts. Any story here about one spouse that starts to workout/diet heavily when it's not a mutual effort is just preparing themselves cosmetically for the next person.
> 
> As I read through all of the original posts, the one trait I see clear as day is that you were and are a Codependent. Try reading about that one. You and your wife are like magnets to each other. You try desperately, endlessly, tirelessly, to save her and she takes all you give, gobbles it up, and spits it out in your face. Then you try harder to give her more ammunition.... because you have this desperate need to save her.
> 
> NW, you don't need her or anyone else. Right now, you need you. You have been the biggest stumbling block to your own success in life. You have been neglecting your own self-care and trying to fulfill your need by trying to be a rescuer. You're not closer to feeling fulfilled, are you?
> 
> I'm very sorry for what you have been dealing with, for as long as you have. It is a terrible ordeal that I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. As soon as you started writing about her abuse, I was mentally done with your post. Think long and hard about the children she wants to have with you... not out of love for you, but out of necessity. She will find a way to make it happen, with or without your consent.
> 
> Lastly, think on this: If instead of you, one of your sons was in your shoes, dealing with a woman precisely like your wife, beating him and emotionally abusing him, would you tell him to keep trying to save her, no matter what the cost? Really think.


Thanks for all of the posts, it's nice to see that kind of response from so many strangers.

In response to your post I'll clarify a few things:

Unfortunately I'm one of those people that relishes a challenge and when someone says it cannot be done, I go do it just to show it can. It's served me well in business but clearly it's a problem for me in my personal life. Related to that I'll tell you I am honestly not scared of being alone -in fact I was very happy the last time I was single. I DO want to raise my own family but obviously that's not something you can just plan on a piece of paper.

I can see how my actions are perceived as codependant but I really am not. 

If anything I'm terrified of failing and ending up in divorce. Not because I'm scared of being alone (I know I'd have a blast if I was single) but because I'd know I gave in and I'd question if I could make it through other hard circumstances with whoever I was to one day have a family with. I want to believe that if people believe in the principal of marriage and fight for it that they can turn it around, otherwise what keeps you together with someone else? We will all face difficulties in life together and go through trying times -if you can't fight for your marriage during those times how can you tell anyone you would and consequently how could you ever have a family of your own?

As for the whole in shape / beach body thing. I'm not that out of shape, my family's gene's are pretty good and we don't get very large when we are out of shape. I've been here before and I can get myself back to being cut in 3 months. While I'm a little out of shape, I actually am happy with how I look to be frank. If she did that and she chooses to do something stupid, I'll drop her in a heartbeat -that's the one thing I won't have any conflict over internally.

The bottom line is I'm tired of how lightly people take marriage these days. That commitment, those vows mean nothing to people and they have no problem giving up (not directing this at anyone here). I want to at least fight and fight hard. If it doesn't work I don't want there to be any question that it's because I didn't give it everything I could.

We live in a generation full of people that feel they are entitled to everything, don't have to work for it and if it's hard, they just give up and look for the easy path. Our divorce rate is a reflection of that in my opinion.

I do agree that I can't change her. I hoped with her finishing school we would have more time together to work on us and she'd be a little older and more mature. I'm realizing that isn't going to happen and struggling now because giving up means walking away from my values for marriage and that's hard. Some might not appreciate that but if you believe so strongly about something, it's very difficult to walk away from it.

Hopefully this helps shed a little light on some of the things you called out.


----------



## Blondilocks

You've given it 3 years. It ain't happenin'. It's already failed. At least be smart enough to recognize the failure. She doesn't want to participate. Game over.


----------



## Satya

That's all good, and thank you for explaining further, however, you speak as though this was a challenge set out for you on a level playing field. It was/is not, I'm afraid. It wasn't even your challenge, but hers. You can't meet it for her.

The members here that are more experienced with her kind of behavior attempted to warn you and help, but my opinion is that sometimes we must all learn for ourselves first hand, sometimes the hard way.

I think you should work on looking inward, to find out why you would be so hard on yourself for "failing" in another marriage. There are a lot of factors out of your control... I think you'd do well to acknowledge that and forgive yourself a bit.



Defeat can be more instructive than victory.


----------



## NewlyWed2000

Satya said:


> That's all good, and thank you for explaining further, however, you speak as though this was a challenge set out for you on a level playing field. It was/is not, I'm afraid. It wasn't even your challenge, but hers. You can't meet it for her.
> 
> The members here that are more experienced with her kind of behavior attempted to warn you and help, but my opinion is that sometimes we must all learn for ourselves first hand, sometimes the hard way.
> 
> I think you should work on looking inward, to find out why you would be so hard on yourself for "failing" in another marriage. There are a lot of factors out of your control... I think you'd do well to acknowledge that and forgive yourself a bit.
> 
> 
> 
> Defeat can be more instructive than victory.


Deep down inside, probably that I want to have a family of my own. I'm 34, I can't seem to pick the right woman so how in the world am I suppose to do it right in the future and frankly if this one doesn't work too it's going to take me a long time to trust someone else enough to be comfortable going down that path. 

It's disappointing, I wish she would pull her head out of you know where and we could make this work but I suspect that won't happen and as I continue to get older, I fear my opportunity to have a family gets smaller and smaller since I'm not the sort to meet someone and to jump into children immediately after -specifically for fear of this sort of thing occurring and raising children in a broken/dysfunctional home.

Starting over I'm at least 5 years out from even considering children -assuming I even met someone that was a good fit (and of course not put off by my 2 failed marriages) and now I'm what, 39? Women also have their biological clock so I'm stuck with someone younger which could cause other issues.

I'm too analytical and just bummed with the situation when I look out from here.


----------



## turnera

NewlyWed2000 said:


> PS. Multiple counselors ruled out BPD for her.


Your problem isn't BPD. It's Spoiled Princess meets Nice Guy, who thinks he's supposed to keep working even harder to accommodate Spoiled Princess and all that does is prove to her you're a doormat.

Have you read No More Mr Nice Guy yet? That's a good first start.


----------



## NewlyWed2000

turnera said:


> Your problem isn't BPD. It's Spoiled Princess meets Nice Guy, who thinks he's supposed to keep working even harder to accommodate Spoiled Princess and all that does is prove to her you're a doormat.
> 
> Have you read No More Mr Nice Guy yet? That's a good first start.


I haven't, but when she's unreasonable with me I'm pretty firm with her. If she's rude, I'll tell her to her face and state that I am not going to hang out with her if she's going to keep that up.

If she starts shouting at me, I'll tell her that I'm not going to communicate like that and walk off etc.

Heck, I've gone as far as to very bluntly tell her on occasion that something is her own issue and she needs to take accountability for it and stop blaming me. 

I can see because I've stayed in this relationship and tried to be supportive how I can come across as a doormat, but I've often been very firm/direct with her on things as well.

I do agree with your assessment about spoiled princess. I don't know how to change it though, aside from staying in the relationship I do stick up for myself and I don't roll over and say "I'm Sorry" unless I really screwed up and feel I need to apologize. I try to not reinforce poor choices, with the exception that I haven't left the marriage. It causes major conflict sometimes because I don't just take it or I will challenge her if I feel she's being unreasonable. That noted, if I AM in the wrong I do own it and I do screw up too.


----------



## Blondilocks

Have you seen the movie "The Money Pit"? Your marriage is the 'emotional pit'. Take the loss and run. And, thank the stars that you don't have children.


----------



## NewlyWed2000

Blondilocks said:


> Have you seen the movie "The Money Pit"? Your marriage is the 'emotional pit'. Take the loss and run. And, thank the stars that you don't have children.


I haven't but based on google, the synopsis made me laugh and I can see why you say that


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## Uptown

Newly, what a wonderful surprise! Thanks so much for returning -- after nearly three years -- to give us an update on your progress at home.



> Multiple counselors ruled out BPD for her.


If she exhibits strong and persistent BPD traits -- as you believed 3 years ago -- you should rely only on your own psychologist (one who has not treated or seen your W). That gives you the best chance of obtaining a candid professional opinion. 

As I noted above (post #17), when BPD behavior is strong, relying on her _psychologists_ for candid advice during the marriage likely would be as foolish as relying on her _attorneys_ during the divorce. It is important you be advised by a professional who is ethically bound to protect YOUR best interests, not hers. I say this for five reasons.

*First*, BPD is not something -- like chickenpox -- that a person either "has" or "doesn't have." Instead, it is a spectrum disorder, which means every adult on the planet exhibits all BPD traits to some degree. At issue, then, is not whether your W exhibits BPD traits. Of course she does. We all do. 

Rather, at issue is whether she exhibits those traits at a strong and persistent level (i.e., is on the upper end of the BPD spectrum). If so, it really does not matter -- for purposes of deciding whether to stay with her -- whether her behavior is so severe as to satisfy 100% of the diagnostic criteria for _"having BPD." _A person satisfying only 80% of those criteria -- thus _"not having BPD"_ -- can be nearly as difficult to live with as one satisfying 100%.

*Second,* psychologists may never witness the BPD traits. Because high functioning BPDers generally are excellent actors, it is a cakewalk for them to hide their BPD traits during a 50-minute session held once a week. It therefore may take a psychiatrist years to see the dysfunctional behaviors you see all week long -- and it is highly unlikely a BPDer will remain in therapy that long.

*Third,* even assuming that the psych has sufficient time to identify a BPDer's disorder, it is unlikely that he will ever tell you. Therapists generally are loath to tell a high functioning BPDer -- much less tell her partner -- the true diagnosis. Because BPDers have fragile egos, giving her the name of her disorder almost certainly will result in her immediately quitting therapy. 

This withholding of information is no secret inside the psychiatric community. It has been discussed in academic articles for decades. See, e.g., the classic 1992 Dartmouth Medical School article at The Beginning of Wisdom Is Never Calling a Patient a Borderline. Twenty years later, a forum of resident doctors discusses this vert same issue at Do You Tell Your Borderline Patients about Their Diagnosis?

Also see the 2015 Minnesota study, BPD: The Frequency of Disclosure and the Choice to Disclose. That study interviewed 170 licensed therapists, 74% of which are psychologists. It finds that only 30% of them say that they _"always"_ tell BPDers their diagnosis -- and 31% say that they _"usually"_ tell them.

This reluctance to disclose is no secret to the family-law attorneys. One law firm explains on its website why there is little chance of being able to use a BPD diagnosis in divorce proceedings. It explains, _"Often mental health care clinicians in completing their DSM list of differential diagnoses will 'defer' or simply leave an Axis II diagnostic impression blank, irrespective of whether a personality disorder exists.... __many psychotherapists are loathe to list Axis II personality disorders."_ See Do You Know Someone Like This: The BPD? 

*Fourth,* in the very unlikely event your W stays in therapy, telling her the name of her disorder may cause her behavior to become WORSE, not better. Because BPDers have a fragile, unstable sense of who they are, they are often looking to other people for cues on how to behave. The danger of disclosing the disorder name, then, is that it will give the patient a new identity as "the BPDer." The result is that a patient who had been exhibiting 5 or 6 BPD traits may suddenly start exhibiting 8 or 9.

*Fifth,* therapists know that listing the diagnosis as "BPD" likely means insurance companies will refuse to cover it or will cover only a small portion. It therefore is common for the "diagnosis" to be listed, instead, as one of the co-occurring disorders, such as depression, anxiety, PTSD, or adult ADHD -- all of which are covered by insurance


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## Uptown

NewlyWed2000 said:


> I feel like I'm starting to lose my mind.


If you really have been living with a BPDer for 3 years, that is exactly how you should be feeling. Because BPDers typically are convinced that the absurd allegations coming out of their mouths are absolutely true -- they generally have a greater "crazy-making" effect than can ever be achieved by narcissists or sociopaths. 

This is why that, of the 157 mental disorders listed in the APA's diagnostic manual, BPD is the _one most notorious _for making the abused partners feel like they may be losing their minds. And this is largely why therapists typically see far more of those abused partners -- coming in to find out if they are going insane -- than they ever see of the BPDers themselves.

Nothing will drive you crazier sooner than being repeatedly abused by a partner whom you know, to a certainty, must really love you. The reason is that you will be mistakenly convinced that, if only you can figure out what YOU are doing wrong, you can restore your partner to that wonderful human being you saw at the very beginning.



> Everyone in this country gives up on difficult things too easily and many don't take marriage very seriously. I do.


Nearly, If your W is a BPDer -- as you suspected in 2013 -- you don't have a real marriage because you don't have a husband/wife relationship. Rather, you have a parent/child relationship. I say this because a BPDer typically has the emotional development of a 4 year old.



> Those vows mean something to me and if I give up when it's tough what does that say about me?


What "giving up" would say, in your situation, is that you've finally come to your senses.



> Things did get much worse, she got very physically abusive and I was bloody and bruised a number of times....


As I observed in post #22 above, the _physical_ abuse of a spouse or partner has been found to be strongly associated with BPD. The Melton study, e.g., concluded that half of spousal batterers are BPDers.



> Her time in school however was very difficult. She told me often that I/our marriage had to take the back seat and that we were not her priority, school was.


You've been sending her to college for the past 3 years? What about sending her to DBT treatments so she can learn how to regulate her own emotions? In post #59, you said that you had found a psychologist who wanted "to start with DBT immediately." Given that your update today makes no mention of it, are you saying that this psychologist determined that she really does not need DBT because she doesn't have full-blown BPD?



> We started going to the range together to try something new, i enjoyed it but she gave up on it quickly.


If she is a BPDer, she has such a weak self image that she has no strong ego to ground her and provide direction. The result is that BPDers tend to start activities with much enthusiasm but then quickly lose interest.



> I'm literally feeling that things are improving quite a bit. Sure we have plenty of work left but we are making progress and I know we'll get there.


As we discussed three years ago, BPDers are frequently seen to be "improving quite a bit," as you say. Like smokers who are always throwing away their "last pack" every two months, BPDers are always "improving" -- right up to the moment they are not. That's the way emotionally unstable people behave. 

It therefore is extremely difficult for the partners to know when real progress has been made. IME, I would guess that the chance of it occurring in HF BPDers likely is below 1%. Shari Schreiber is less optimistic on her BPD blog. She says you have a better chance flying to the moon strapped to a banana than ever seeing a BPDer stay in therapy long enough to make a real difference.



> She's just repetitively shot me down.... her response is those are YOUR ideas, things YOU like.


If she is a BPDer, she felt so out of control during childhood that she now has a desperate need to control her environment and to control you -- thus minimizing her abandonment and engulfment fears. Yet, because she subconsciously projects those feelings onto you, she will be absolutely convinced you are controlling everything -- even when you make every attempt to give control over to her.



> She feels I manipulate her with purchases.


Likewise, my BPDer exW felt the same way. She was absolutely convinced that I controlled every purchase and every decision affecting us. That perception persisted no matter what I tried to do to give her control. 

If I surprised her with a gift, for example, she resented me for being the one to have picked it out. If I bought her a gift she had already picked out, she resented me for being the one to decide when I bought it. If I gave her a generous budget every month for fun purchases -- so she could decide when and where to buy -- she resented me for setting a limit on the budget. 

Indeed, the only way it was possible for her to realize she had actually made the purchase decision herself was to buy something which she knew I absolutely hated. If I liked what she was purchasing, that meant to her that she really had no control and I was merely allowing her to make the purchase because I wanted it for myself. 



> She was looking at a couch online she liked and I told her I'd seen one like that I could show her so we go look at it and her response is "you thought I liked THIS??


I had a similar experience when my exW and I drove 8 hours out of state to purchase a chair for our living room. We shopped for three days in an area that is famous for its furniture manufacturers. We never did buy a chair, however. 

What happened was that, on the first day, she found a soft stuffed chair and ottoman ($1,600) that she absolutely loved. She was so excited about it. I followed her around all day and was careful not to advocate anything. That way, she knew she had chosen the chair/ottoman all by herself. 

Over dinner that night, however, I made the awful mistake of saying "I think the chair is beautiful and you made a good choice." Well, that was the kiss of death. The next morning, she decided she did not like that chair at all. And, by the end of the day, she picked out a pink one that did not match any color in our home. On top of that, she insisted that the pink color was really "yellow." Never mind that, when I asked two passing shoppers what color it was, they both said "pink."



> She tells me we have NOTHING in common.


Like small children, BPDers rely heavily on black-white thinking as an ego defense. They therefore tend to frequently use all-or-nothing expressions like "NOTHING in common...," "You ALWAYS...," and "You NEVER...."



> I want you to be a part of choosing what we do. She just says she doesn't know and walks off.


If she is a BPDer, there is a good chance she really does not know. Although she desperately wants to have control, it is difficult for an unstable person to know today what she will be wanting a month, or a week, from now.



> When we were dating she made a big deal about how I wouldn't put out enough and now she again reaffirms she hates sex. I'm upset b/c basically she lied, about A LOT of stuff while we were dating.


As I tried to explain earlier, it is so common for a BPDer to "rewrite history" in her own mind that you never will know when she is lying. Maybe she was and maybe she wasn't. During the dating period, a BPDer's infatuation is so intense that her two great fears (abandonment and engulfment) are completely held at bay. It therefore is common for BPDers to enjoy passionate sex (and all of your hobbies) throughout the courtship period -- and then to suddenly decide they never enjoyed them when their fears return.



> I basically tell her that before kids I need to know we have a strong foundation and have invested a lot into each other so that we can model what a good marriage looks like to children.


As you already know, the basic foundation on which all marriages must be built is trust. Until a BPDer learns how to trust herself, she is incapable of trusting her spouse for any extended period.


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## Satya

NewlyWed2000 said:


> I haven't, but when she's unreasonable with me I'm pretty firm with her. If she's rude, I'll tell her to her face and state that I am not going to hang out with her if she's going to keep that up.
> 
> If she starts shouting at me, I'll tell her that I'm not going to communicate like that and walk off etc.
> 
> Heck, I've gone as far as to very bluntly tell her on occasion that something is her own issue and she needs to take accountability for it and stop blaming me.
> 
> I can see because I've stayed in this relationship and tried to be supportive how I can come across as a doormat, but I've often been very firm/direct with her on things as well.
> 
> I do agree with your assessment about spoiled princess. I don't know how to change it though, aside from staying in the relationship I do stick up for myself and I don't roll over and say "I'm Sorry" unless I really screwed up and feel I need to apologize. I try to not reinforce poor choices, with the exception that I haven't left the marriage. It causes major conflict sometimes because I don't just take it or I will challenge her if I feel she's being unreasonable. That noted, if I AM in the wrong I do own it and I do screw up too.


You telling her stuff doesn't mean a thing, I'm sorry to say.

If you actually did something instead of telling her what you're going to do, she may actually believe you'll do it.

One of the biggest mistakes many men make (IMO) is to go tell their woman what they're going to do. It actually hurts your cause and makes you look like all you do is blow hot air. Don't talk about it, just go and do it.


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## turnera

NewlyWed2000 said:


> Deep down inside, probably that I want to have a family of my own. I'm 34, I can't seem to pick the right woman so how in the world am I suppose to do it right in the future and frankly if this one doesn't work too it's going to take me a long time to trust someone else enough to be comfortable going down that path.


By finding yourself a really good psychologist and going to see him regularly to learn about why you're codependent and a Giver and a Nice Guy. And then, with that therapist's help, breaking DOWN those reasons and constructing a new, healthy belief system that will serve you well whether you stay or not. 

Side benefit: that new you will attract HEALTHY women, not abusers. And THEN you will get the marriage and family you want.

A good book on this is Getting The Love You Want by Hendrix; it explains why you pick unhealthy people and what it has to do with your childhood.


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## Phil Anders

NewlyWed2000 said:


> Unfortunately *I'm one of those people that relishes a challenge and when someone says it cannot be done, I go do it just to show it can.* It's served me well in business but clearly it's a problem for me in my personal life.
> 
> If anything *I'm terrified of failing* and ending up in divorce. Not because I'm scared of being alone (I know I'd have a blast if I was single) but because I'd know I gave in and I'd question if I could make it through other hard circumstances with whoever I was to one day have a family with. I want to believe that if people believe in the principal of marriage and fight for it that they can turn it around, otherwise what keeps you together with someone else? We will all face difficulties in life together and go through trying times -if you can't fight for your marriage during those times how can you tell anyone you would and consequently how could you ever have a family of your own?
> 
> 
> 
> The bottom line is *I'm tired of how lightly people take marriage these days. That commitment, those vows mean nothing to people and they have no problem giving up* (not directing this at anyone here). *I want to at least fight and fight hard*. If it doesn't work I don't want there to be any question that it's because I didn't give it everything I could.
> 
> *We live in a generation full of people that feel they are entitled to everything, don't have to work for it and if it's hard, they just give up and look for the easy path. *Our divorce rate is a reflection of that in my opinion.
> 
> I do agree that I can't change her. I hoped with her finishing school we would have more time together to work on us and she'd be a little older and more mature. I'm realizing that isn't going to happen and struggling now because *giving up means walking away from my values for marriage and that's hard.* Some might not appreciate that but if you believe so strongly about something, it's very difficult to walk away from it.


Stop with the "I like me a challenge", social commentary, and "nothing worth having comes easy" bull$hit. You're placing her on a pedestal she doesn't deserve, and the sense of achievement in riding out each successive storm is the consolation prize you've set up for yourself so you can look like a mensch for sticking it out. 

You're stigmatizing freedom and change so you don't have to pursue it. You have nothing to prove to us or society by remaining in an abusive marriage. The real challenge here is admitting your [second] bad choice of partner and "sunk costs" (in time, money, effort and emotional suffering), being compassionate enough to forgive yourself (and her), and then disengaging and figuring out how to make better choices.


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## becareful2

Is there any chance of an affair going on here? She gets herself in shape but tells you she's not attracted to you and is not in love with you. That's like getting all dressed up with nowhere to go. She deprives you of emotional and sexual intimacy. Do you have access to her electronic devices? Does she seem secretive? Maybe you should tie a VAR under her car seat with adhesive-backed velcro and see what you find. A VAR is a Voice Activated Recorder.

In the mean time, just detach and do the 180 on her. Get back in shape and do things for you.


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## NewlyWed2000

Appreciate all the responses -even those that aren't that tactful. 

Uptown, I can't believe how much effort you put into helping people -especially complete strangers on the internet, major kudos to you sir.

I'm going to see the counselor tonight and try to figure out how to move forward. I really don't want to live with her / interact with her after all of this so I'm going to discuss a separation with the counselor.

I'll also add that we were seeing a counselor for awhile -a really good one but that she stopped going (and to be fair I stopped going too). We did go for about 4 months though and were also doing individual sessions -she didn't go as often as I but she was for awhile anyway.

On a related note, I just found out she's been spouting this crap to another married couple we hang out with. They have a 9 yr old, 10 yr old and toddler and now his wife is spitting some of the same stuff she has been to me to him and asking for a separation (after spending two long evenings venting together about their relationships). Could be coincidental but I think his wife admires mine and is probably letting her influence how she feels about her own marriage and what to do.

If she wants to actively sabotage our relationship because she's unwilling to deal with her personal issues/happiness on her own that's one thing, but to try and drag another family into this -that's taking it to a whole new level and I'm livid right now. You should help others heal -ESPECIALLY IF THEY HAVE KIDS and be a positive influence.

On a positive note, all this hurtful / self centered stuff is starting to catch up to me and the anger is helping me get through this (as depressing as that sounds).


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## Uptown

NewlyWed2000 said:


> I'm going to see the *counselor* tonight and try to figure out how to move forward.... I'll also add that we were seeing a *counselor* for awhile -a really good one but that she stopped going (and to be fair I stopped going too). We did go for about 4 months.....


Counselors? Are you referring to marriage counselors? If she exhibits strong BPD traits, MC likely will be a total waste of time because her issues go far beyond a lack of communication skills. 

What did you learn when she went to the psychologist for DBT therapy nearly three years ago? Have you ever consulted with your own psychologist (i.e., one who has never seen her)?


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## NewlyWed2000

Uptown said:


> Counselors? Are you referring to marriage counselors? If she exhibits strong BPD traits, MC likely will be a total waste of time because her issues go far beyond a lack of communication skills.
> 
> What did you learn when she went to the psychologist for DBT therapy nearly three years ago? Have you ever consulted with your own psychologist (i.e., one who has never seen her)?


Psychologist, highly regarded in Psychology Today. This one is someone I found, not her.

She said she would do DBT then never went through with it.


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## john117

At the risk of asking the obvious, was insurance involved? I've heard cases of many insurance company policies not covering BPD or other similar cluster disorders, hence no BPD diagnosis.

To my half trained ears, she does sound a bit BPD-ish... Or cluster B-ish...


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## joannacroc

Like a lot of male victims of domestic abuse, I see a lot of victim blaming going on here. If the genders had been reversed, OP, I think you would have the same basic response - info on BPD, and urging you to leave. But a lot less about being a wuss. I hope you ignore that portion of the rather abusive language from other posters and listen to the nuggets of real info out there. I'm glad to hear you are now resigned to leaving. Frankly, nothing could be worse than being repeatedly beaten by the person you love. It rather sounds like the person you love never existed - she was a combination of hobbies she carefully fudged to pique your interest, tempered anger etc. and basically, a constructed personality which seems to bear no resemblance to who she actually is as a person. 

You're not a failure if you leave an abusive marriage. Do you know what you are? Sensible. Capable of loving yourself enough to acknowledge that you DON'T deserve abuse, verbal or physical. 

On a side note, I don't agree on the 5 years estimate about meeting someone new and having kids. It can be tempting when you divorce to mourn what you thought would be. But there are also a lot of possibilities in divorce too. If you divorce, you have a lot of hard work in therapy to do in order to be even nearly ready for a relationship. Healing and changing the way you perceive others should be taking a front seat right now. But you know how good it feels to go to bed feeling safe? To know for sure that you won't be at the mercy of someone else's temper tantrums? Surely you don't enjoy walking on eggshells the whole time? I'm going to say something to you which someone said to me at the beginning of my separation and I really didn't want to hear. But she was absolutely right. You're not ready to think about thinking about dating for at least a year after your separation. Don't give up hope on having kids and a family someday. Just don't get so wrapped up in it happening on your timetable. You seem very focused and organized and an excellent planner. But that can have a downside too. Life doesn't give a damn about the plans you make. Cut yourself some slack. Nobody is standing next to your life with a measuring stick.


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## Satya

NewlyWed2000 said:


> Psychologist, highly regarded in Psychology Today. This one is someone I found, not her.
> 
> 
> 
> She said she would do DBT then never went through with it.




Because she didn't think there was anything wrong. Her lack of action should have clued you in big on where she stood. But you were ok with her not going so it was like you were acknowledging there was nothing wrong.

We teach people how to treat us, NW. You're going through an anger phase, but don't let anger blind you to the valuable LESSONS you can learn from this experience.


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## dianaelaine59

I would think I had died and gone to Heaven if someone who loved me bought me a house, let alone a car! Any car!!

And being surrounded with a secure life, love, dining out, flowers??? Ummm .... she's VERY ungrateful, I don't care WHAT her diagnosis is!!!

I've had a very hard life, suffer from depression on occasion, and have been told I have light BPD, but I would be eternally grateful, and wonderfully content with what you provide for her.

And sex? Hell, you'd be one happy camper! 😊

AND, I'm a Christian.

*shaking head*



Sent from my 0PM92 using Tapatalk


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## LucasJackson

Your wife is a spoiled baby and possibly certifiably nuts. Good luck with all that my friend. No way I'd have children with this woman.


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## Dates

This sounds crazy. How could days be in the future if it is already like this in honeymoon.


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## mupostori

Do you pray / do bible study with your wife at home ?

Matthew 18: 19 -20
19 “Again, truly I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything they ask for, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.”

From what you have said your problem is most likely a spiritual one.


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## jasmine31

edit: deleted 
jasmine31


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## Steve1000

@NewlyWed2000
"I tell her no, it means you FIGHT for your marriage, even if it's hard you try, you work through it and if you both do that, you'll get there and you'll be stronger than you were having gone through it."

Unfortunately at the end of the journey, there are no prizes for you to win and no second chances if you waste too much of your life hanging on to this person. If you're not careful, your going to ruin your life by staying with such a person.


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## Fozzy

You're choosing to be abused at this point. That's your choice, but don't you dare put a baby in that woman. 

If you hand a baby to a physically abusive emotional train wreck, then you're just as guilty as she is for what happens to that child.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt

@NewlyWed2000 Gosh! So counsellors with some basic entry level psychological counselling qualifications cannot diagnose what could well be a major psychiatric disorder?

Why does that not surprise me?

This is stuff that is well beyond their pay grade.

And even some psychologists are stumped by this stuff. 

They cannot treat people with such disorders. Why? They aren't allowed to prescribe medicine.


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## caruso

She physically attacked you a number of times over the past 3 years including beating your face to a bloody pulp.. and you put a freaking GUN in her hands?

I also take issue with you leaving a dog outside in mid 90 degree weather. 

Aside from that, I never did believe in HELL until I read this thread. 

I do now. 

You sir, are your own judge and executioner. And you seem to do it all in the name of "the importance of marriage, which is taken too lightly", or you do it in the name of your faith which screams with hypocrasy. You have made up the rules since the day you met this woman, but that's only fair, considering she lied to you since day one. 

In a morbid ironic sort of way, the two of you are a perfect mismatch.


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