# My wife's journey to admitting she has a sex addiction - a 411 for the spouse



## Tover26 (Oct 29, 2011)

So, after perusing this, I thought I'd add in my 2 cents. On Jan 12th my wife of 8 years finally went to an IC who kicked her ass and told her that, with our marriage on the line (I had asked her to move out and be done with it because she was not following certain rules of behavior) that she was a sex addict and needed help, that she would never overcome this on her own. Between the therapist and our bishop and the threat of separation looming over her, she agreed to start a 12 step program and do what is called in a "90 in 90". There are various programs for sex addiction. I'm not going to list them here.

A 90 in 90 is basically attending 90 12 step meetings within 90 days with the goal of consuming so much time that there is NO TIME for acting out. This is followed up with accountability to the therapist. These meetings all focus on 1 of the 12 steps with a sponsor guiding the newbie through the first few steps. My wife has made partial progress on steps 0, 1, 2, and 4. I've listened in a some of the phone meetings with her invitation and, except for consuming time, I am failing to see what the point of these meetings are. She has gone to a few in person meetings but she has so far ended up being the only woman in a group of men... and I while my wife has issues with men and women, it seems counterpurposed to me to attend a meeting with a bunch of recovering sex addicts. Maybe you've felt the same way too. She's at one right now in fact, her 25th meetings or so and 30 days of sobriety from her inner circle behaviors and qualifiers.

What's that?, you ask - an inner circle? A qualifier? The inner circle is the core set of acting out behaviors an addict has. A drug addict might have their drug of choice, a sex addict might have hookers or masturbation. The qualifier is the person or people or circumstances the addict engages to act out... so the actual lover, affair partner, or what have you. It's weird to me. 

Meanwhile, my wife has moments of insight from these meetings and with the IC holding her accountable, I suppose there's a shot. Recovery stats for sex addiction are hard to feel any level of confidence in but range up there with heroin addiction... because you can't really go cold turkey, or have a substitute, when sex is 90% mental and the easiest acting out is taking matters in their own hands so to speak. 

Our kids have noticed her absence and phone calls for these meetings. It's hard to explain to them that the meetings are for "self improvement", which is such a high level truth it feels like a lie in and of itself. They don't really talk all that much about the inner circle other than to say, "My inner circle is XYZ and I've been sober for this long". They then read a passage from the 12 step program or a story of a recovering/ered sex addict and then they go around and have 3 minutes to share their thoughts. Graphic descriptions of acting out aren't allowed but seem to occur at some level in every meeting. Several times now men have gotten up and left when my wife entered and sat down. Several times people have said things and then apologized to my wife.

The odd thing is when she goes to general "addictions of all types" meetings. This happens mainly with our church where last Sunday my wife was in a small group with a therapist/member leading a cocaine addict, an anorexic teen with her mom, and a compulsive shopper. At one point, the anorexic turned to her mom and said, "At least I'm not like her!" pointing to my wife. What is it about sex that makes everyone else feel like somehow their particular addictions are a "better one"? I think it's because they see her wedding ring and know she's married... that somewhere behind her is someone like me. 

Against all of this, my wife has a family history of bipolar and depression. I don't think my wife has either of these, but her IC thinks she has a lot of hypermanic tendencies... not enough to really say "Go see a pyschiatrist" but enough that it affects her in other ways. I'm just holding my breath for when her very well-established pattern of "I've done this enough and am done and it's time for <next thing>" kicks in. In the past, it was hobbies like reading or hiking or home schooling for a year. At some point, I wonder, "Will she declare her 12 step done, prematurely?" Like I said, recovery stats for sex addiction are scary bad with relapses - of course - taking the form of new affairs or what have you. 

We are moving to a post-nup divorce agreement as a condition of not divorcing now. As the spouse, hearing about these meetings adn reading/researching it online, I keep finding myself thinking, "What is wrong with me that I'm still here?" I wonder if my wife is sitting in room full of recovering/ered sex addicts all looking at her and wondering if she's looking back at them. 

Anyone else with experience in these, as a participant or spouse of? Do these things WORK?


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

My husband is a recovering sex addict and has been attending SA for a year and 3 months. He's been sober since June of 2010. He goes to the meetings once a week. He has never seen a CSAT and so far is doing well without having done so. I attended an S anon meeting but it isn't for me, as I am not really very co-dependent. We attend MC about every month.

No one knows he is a sex addict, although most of our family know he cheated. They don't know the details though. He doesn't talk a whole lot about the meetings, although more lately. They do fill a need with him, though, which they don't for everyone. The important thing is whether your wife is getting anything out of the meetings or not. There are women at the ones my hubby goes to, and ideally there would be separate groups for men and women, but there aren't enough attendees to warrant that here.

Have you looked into going to COSA or S-Anon at all? Like I said, not for me, but maybe you'd feel differently.


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## AgentD (Dec 27, 2010)

My suggestion you need to maybe check out, a Sanon meeting in your area. Also you need to get some info, books etc on living with a sex addict etc. 

Any person with any kind of addiction needs support, not just the support from their meetings but their family. Its part of helping them recover and it will be beneficial to you as well.


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## lostintheworld1 (Aug 7, 2011)

I have attended some SA meetings as well. First off your concern about men and women in the same group.... Yeah it isn't about anything like that at all. When I attend the meetings my feelings are about everything BUT sex. For two sex addicts to hookup at SA would be pretty tough. And you are right sex addiction is very hard because you can't go cold turkey. That is why they have the inner circle that you don't go into. Just like others set healthy boundaries that program helps set them for the sex addict.


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## Tover26 (Oct 29, 2011)

Anyone know how long it takes to work your way through the steps? My wife has made good progress on 0, 1, 2, and 4. I've asked her to take me through #4 as she gains any insight... most of her insights were shared after DDay#1 but while she was still hiding another lover. As such, I am curious if she has any additional insights now that she is maybe free of deceit.

My IC challenged me to accept that an addict can love someone truly while also engaging in their addiction. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me in the context of sex addiction... drugs, yes. Sex? No. With sex the level and depth of betrayal seems so wrapped up in an f'd up notion of love that I just am not seeing it.

Thank you for the comments. Two moderators in one of the meetings have gotten together, it would appear to my wife based on how much they were flirting. Several people commented on it and left before they calmed it down and apologized.


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## AgentD (Dec 27, 2010)

Tover26 said:


> Anyone know how long it takes to work your way through the steps?


MY husband is in AA has been for 2 yrs. I assume SA works alot like AA. You basically work the steps at your own pace, its not a race or competition etc. Once my husband worked through all of this steps and it took awhile, he actually started back over and went through them again. Some steps he focused more on than others because some steps are harder than others. Does she have a sponsor? I'm not sure if they have those in SA or not.


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## fearful55 (Feb 15, 2012)

Tover,

I'm a sex and love addict, married (barely), but sober for 14 months. I'm also a long time AA member. The 12 step approach to recovery from addiction can be difficult to grasp without help. I can also understand your questions regarding both the steps and the meetings for sex addiction. The fellowship I attend is SLAA (Sex and Love Addicts Anonymous) 

While attending 90 meetings in 90 days does take up a good chunk of one's time, the purpose is rather to get as much exposure as quickly as possible to meetings and the 12 step approach to recovery. (At a rate of one meeting a week, the same experience would take 90 weeks and would be much less effective, if at all) Ideally, the addict will meet and interact with other addicts who are actively pursuing recovery for the purpose of sharing toward their common purpose: To gain sobriety and help others to achieve the same. 

She should get a sponsor. Rule of thumb is a female sponsor., (subject of course to the complication of any bi-sexual components, if any) A sponsor is crucial to the recovery of any addict in recovery, regardless of addiction. The sponsor is the mentor, the guide through recovery, a day-to-day counsel for living sober, one day at a time. 

Try not to worry about the meetings. People are human and your concerns are understandable. But I know from experience that going to meetings is the best available treatment for my addiction(s). I learned to lean on the fellowship of the programs of recovery, a group working together to help themselves and eachother. The lack of females at meetings is not great for your wife. The men will do their best for her (and they are not there to be predatory. I think you would be impressed. Guys who've been around a while will take care to integrate her into things and with total respect) but she should keep asking if there are meetings with women in attendance...even a woman's only meeting ?? I go to a men's meeting as part of my program. I also attend an open meeting where women are a minority but there are a few. The women need to share phone numbers and stay in touch. When you are feeling like acting out, you have your sponsor, others in the program, and your Higher Power to turn to for help to get through it. I need to keep all of those options accessible always or I'm at risk.

Someone has already posted that the steps aren't something that have a time range. People in recovery "work" the steps continuously. As new as your wife is in the fellowship, the first 3 steps should be her focus. They are the ones most critical to getting sober. The rest are more geared toward "living" sober. The goal is to change the things about you that got twisted by the years of masking feelings by acting out...addicts run from feelings that they don't want to feel by covering them with the euphoric effect of their drug of choice. Booze and drugs do that by introducing chemicals that induce a sense of well being through brain chemistry. Sexual and romantic intrigue produce the same heroine-like chemical results in the brain. Recovering addicts have to fight the "mental obsession" to self sedate. Because once they act out, the then have a "physical compulsion" to continue the behavior seeking those euphoric results. As unwitting slaves, powerless over the obsession and compulsion, they make decisions that they would never choose otherwise. This is the "loss of spiritual values". They hurt themselves and everyone around them, leaving a path of destruction in their wake, all the while oblivious to their powerlessness over the addiction and the unmanageable lives they are living. 

Addiction is thus a 3-fold disease, physical, mental, and spiritual. 

Step one: We admitted we were powerless over our addiction - that our lives had become unmanageable.

That's the first hurtle. It is absolute. To recover, you must surrender to this understanding. If you are not sober, you are not running your life. The addiction is calling the shots. it tells you where to go, what to do, how to feel, and blinds you to your self destruction.

I'm dealing with the pain of my unfolding marriage. I came on this forum to have another outlet...an additional way to get outside myself and my problems by trying to help someone else.
I don't know if any of this will be helpful to you. the effort has helped me.

Thanks...


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Yes they do have sponsors in SA, and yes they do the steps at their own pace, just like AA.

Tover if two of the mods have 'gotten together' they have no business running meetings. It should be reported to the organization even. How pathetic.

My husband still loved me when he was acting out. I don't understand it, but that's what he says. Maybe he has a different definition of love than some of the rest of us.


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## fearful55 (Feb 15, 2012)

Hope1964 said:


> My husband still loved me when he was acting out. I don't understand it, but that's what he says. Maybe he has a different definition of love than some of the rest of us.


If your husband says he loved you when he was acting out, he is not lying. Addicts make choices in the pursuit of their "fix" that they would never make if not for the addiction. The secret life of a sex addict is compartmentalized. My wife speaks with me of this clear contradiction between being in love with her and acting out. My only explanation is that addicts don't think like "normal" non-addicts. Trying to apply a template of what non-addicts might be thinking to the thought processes of an addict will drive you crazy. The two will never reconcile.

The bad decisions of the addict are not an indication of having fallen out of love with a spouse, or of not caring about a job that they put in jeopardy, or of not fearing the consequences of breaking laws, etc. In 12 step recovery circles, this is referred to as the spiritual loss of values. 

In my case, I threw out the rulebook and I'll bet your husband knows exactly what I mean.


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## Tover26 (Oct 29, 2011)

Fearful55 thanks for the post. Yesterday was my wife's 45th meeting, so halfway. We spent the night discussing areas where maybe her insights have changed from how she original presented herself. There have been some changes. I'm petrified that she'll relapse and see stats for sex addiction on par with heroin's dismal recovery/relapse rate. 

On my side, I keep trying to liken these meetings to something I understand and then ponder if regular meetings with similar people would make a difference. I'm having faith but it's so hard... and I'd be lying if I said I was committed to recovery and reconciliation yet. I dread the day I hear things like:
- You're right. I fell out of love with you before the affairs and was lying when I said I love you after Dday #n.
- You're toxic to my addiction recovery in that you aren't forgiving me or giving me space to handle my issues. We're done... not because of relapse but because you're pain is holding me back. 
- Thank you for being my doormat and foil during my affairs and during my recovery. I don't need you anymore. Thanks and goodbye. 
- How did you find out about my relapse?!

I can get sick with anxiety pondering these too much. By way of co-addiction, I've read up on it and don't see anywhere that I enabled her except by still being here. The "married (barely)" thing resonates with me Fearful because it is damn near impossible to separate the addict's behavior from the logical conclusion a normal person would make about why that behavior is occuring. At best she recovers and we get to cope with a completely awful new marital reality and history. At worse, the whole addiction thing is an excuse that will feed into the next "acting out". 

I don't understand the euphemisms... "acting out" is such a quaint way of saying "having f'd up affairs". In AA, do they talk about "acting out" or do they talk about the use of alcohol?


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## fearful55 (Feb 15, 2012)

Tover26 said:


> Fearful55 thanks for the post. Yesterday was my wife's 45th meeting, so halfway. We spent the night discussing areas where maybe her insights have changed from how she original presented herself. There have been some changes. I'm petrified that she'll relapse and see stats for sex addiction on par with heroin's dismal recovery/relapse rate.


First, congrats to her on the 45 meetings. That *IS* significant. I know she is hearing it from others in the program, but if possible, tell her I said congrats. 

Don't feel like you have to be her cheerleader in this. It's her responsibility. When I first went to therapy, they told me to not look to my wife to tell me how good I'm doing with my program. As the spouse of a sex addict, you have your own set of issues and need your own support. I don't know what you might be doing for yourself, but I have a suggestion. Read "Your Sexually Addicted Spouse" by Barbara Steffens. The 12 step programs for spouses take an approach that you are co-addicted. For my wife, this didn't work. She found, through this author and others using this approach, an alternative way of looking at what the spouse is going through. This school of thought views the spouse as a victim of 'relational trauma'. For the spouse, this IS something that needs to be addressed in some healing way.

When it comes to your concern with the stats regarding recovery from sex addiction, try to look at that as something you can't control and thus need to let go of. If you spend your energy on what "could" happen, you are wasting energy that could be go towards taking care of your needs...an area where you DO have control. She needs to be accountable to you to make you feel safe. Unless that's not happening, don't _project_. 



Tover26 said:


> On my side, I keep trying to liken these meetings to something I understand and then ponder if regular meetings with similar people would make a difference.


It does. The support of the group is huge on many levels. The more she gets involved and gets on the inside, the better off she will be in terms of staying sober, learning about addiction and herself. She'll learn about changing the person that she became in her addiction and how important is true change to her life going forward.



Tover26 said:


> I'm having faith but it's so hard... and I'd be lying if I said I was committed to recovery and reconciliation yet. I dread the day I hear things like:
> - You're right. I fell out of love with you before the affairs and was lying when I said I love you after Dday #n.
> - You're toxic to my addiction recovery in that you aren't forgiving me or giving me space to handle my issues. We're done... not because of relapse but because you're pain is holding me back.
> - Thank you for being my doormat and foil during my affairs and during my recovery. I don't need you anymore. Thanks and goodbye.
> - How did you find out about my relapse?!


Again all valid concerns, but projecting about what bad things 'might' happen. My opinion, you shouldn't go through this alone. You can find an individual counselor (IC) with expertise in this area. 



Tover26 said:


> it is damn near impossible to separate the addict's behavior from the logical conclusion a normal person would make about why that behavior is occurring.


Addict behavior is not about you or because of you. That is hard to accept, as you say, but it is for real. 



Tover26 said:


> I don't understand the euphemisms... "acting out" is such a quaint way of saying "having f'd up affairs". In AA, do they talk about "acting out" or do they talk about the use of alcohol?


Another fair point. You are right. In AA they talk about picking up that first drink. They don't use a euphemism. But, in drug addiction recovery, the euphemism 'picking up' IS used. I can speak from my perspective on this and maybe it will help...

My story includes a variety of sex addict 'behaviors'. That alone makes it hard to state clearly the specific behavior for the sake of a discussion. Often it requires some umbrella term. But that's not the REAL issue. I have a ton of shame, guilt, and remorse over what I've done to both my wife and to myself. Normal people 'pick up a drink' but normal people don't 'light the crack pipe', snort a line', 'stick a needle in their arm', 'having f'd up affairs', 'compulsively look at porn', 'have anonymous sex', etc. So those words are super-charged to say out loud. For me, they are painful. When communicating with my wife, there is already the potential for every discussion to spin out of control over her resentment/rage. Using the specific language is gas on the fire. 

But most important to me is this. Whether or not it works out with my wife, I need to be OK. This process of recovery is of healing, changing, and growing. It is counterproductive for me to beat myself up over the things that I've done that I cant change. At meetings, it is often said, "put down the bat and stop beating yourself. Give yourself a break. You're sober today, you're at a meeting, be gentle with yourself." If I was forced to always replace 'acting out' with the real words, it would serve to punish me every time. I can't heal if the scab is being torn away with every conversation. There's a time and a place for looking at the things that I've done. 

Addiction is what I have. It's not what I am. The most helpful thing that was said to me when first addressing addiction and my inability to let go of the guilt, shame, and remorse was this: You are not a bad man. You are a good man...with a bad problem." I'm not responsible for my addiction. But I *AM* responsible for my recovery. If I fail to work my program of recovery and wind up losing the internal struggle to my addiction(s), I most definitely *AM* responsible.

This is the stuff that keeps me sober today. God willing, it is the stuff that will keep your wife sober today.


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## Tover26 (Oct 29, 2011)

Fearful, thanks for adding to the thread. We're having our 2nd joint counselling session today. She feels she is making awesome progress. I feel she is not... my standard for her progress is the level of effort she puts into her recovery as compared to how much effort she put into her affairs and hiding them. I had requested this because I figured that after 48 SAA/SLAA meetings and 2 months of counselling, there might be some value in a joint session again, either to discuss issues or share enhanced insight. Nope. I was wrong. She has nothing she wants to discuss.

I find it odd how the meetings all seem to focus on early steps. I talked with an addiction recovery spec and he said that the later steps are far more personalized and many don't make it past step 4... as such, the meetings tend to focus on early steps where the foundation for recovery and support structures are being set. 

It is soooo hard for me to accept that these mtgs make a difference. Coming into the marriage, as part of our dating, we discussed things like sexual misbehaviors, drugs, affairs, etc. I understood that we were on exactly the same page. The issue that keeps coming back is... had I known or even suspected that my wife was capable of any of these things, there would not have been a next date. Against that, we have kids and I adopted her child from her first marriage. I feel completely trapped and IF there even is such a thing as a sexual addiction, the last thing I want to do is derail her recovery and ending up in a divorce where there's shared custody and she's exposing the kids to messed up people and situations... just like she did last year. 

I've looked and looked and I see almost no stats on how many people successfully "recover" as a time function. There seems to be a huge increased probability of relapse at 4 to 6 months, and then a less than 5% recovery rate after 2 years "sober". 

Do in person versus phone meetings make much of a difference? My wife seems to get a lot more out of the in person meetings if only because she has to pay attention since she is there. To be honest, I have a hard time believing that she goes to the meetings and have a huge temptation to follow her and see where she actually goes. And then I hit myself upside the head and remember, "What's the point?"


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## VeryShyGirl (Feb 18, 2010)

Don't dwell on the numbers and statistics because it'll do nothing but bring you down. Remember that people CAN and DO recover from these intense addictions and try to remain positive. Hang in there.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

With sex being a major component of a healthy marriage, how does it get reintroduced into a marriage with a SA spouse?


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

morituri said:


> With sex being a major component of a healthy marriage, how does it get reintroduced into a marriage with a SA spouse?


Opinions differ on this. Some of the 12 step groups 'strongly suggest' that the addict do 3 months of total abstinence - no sex of ANY kind. This is supposed to get their brain totally off the dopamine high dependency they have. We didn't do that. We had started having sex again after his cheating was exposed, and when he finally admitted his addiction after D Day#2 we discussed it after looking into the different groups, but agreed it wasn't necessary. 

It isn't the sex so much as the thrill of doing something forbidden that a lot of addicts are addicted to. For my hubby, sexual acting out was how he dealt with feeling isolated and alone. Now he knows this and has other coping mechanisms in place, and our relationship is good, so he doesn't feel the need to act out any more.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

Sounds like re-programming ones brain. I wish you and others much success.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

morituri said:


> With sex being a major component of a healthy marriage, how does it get reintroduced into a marriage with a SA spouse?


My wife's SLAA group tends to prefer a personalized approach, with the members determining, based on their past behaviors, what is and isn't over their own personal lines in the sand, with the knowledge and understanding that sex is a significant component of a healthy marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

morituri said:


> Sounds like re-programming ones brain. I wish you and others much success.


That is very much what it is...re-learning how to think and respond. It doesn't happen overnight, and it can be very easy for the addict to fall back into past habits and behaviors before the new patterns become ingrained in them. In many cases, they're trying to overwrite a lifetime of learned, habitual behaviors that feed their addiction, just like any other addict. From my perspective, a sex addiction can be a tougher but to crack than a substance addiction, particularly for a married addict, because it's not a tangible substance they're addicted to...an alcoholic knows that a single drink can fire up the addiction again and can stay away from alcohol. A sex/love addict, however - especially a married one - doesn't have that luxury, as love and sex are parts of a fulfilling marriage. My wife has to walk that fine line every day...and I've told her more than once that, if she feels that anything we're doing is starting to wake the addiction and feed it, to let me know so we can try to redirect it. It's tough on me, sometimes, too...there's a degree of re-learning how to act and think on the part of the spouse, too, but not so drastic as that done by the addict.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## fearful55 (Feb 15, 2012)

Tover26 said:


> I had requested this because I figured that after 48 SAA/SLAA meetings and 2 months of counselling, there might be some value in a joint session again, either to discuss issues or share enhanced insight. Nope. I was wrong. She has nothing she wants to discuss.


What do you want her to discuss? I ask because my wife and I seem to be light years apart. In our case, she wants to focus on on affair that mostly took place in the late 90s. She won't accept that this was like the others, an addictive relationship. She insists that it was "an affair of the heart" and I have to prove that is was not or we have to divorce. For multiple layers of reasons, we can't get any where near common ground on this. She wants to discuss this (read: beat the **** out of me) every minute of every day. I have learned that there will be no resolution of this for her, as evidenced by 2 years of frustrated failure to get anywhere.



Tover26 said:


> I find it odd how the meetings all seem to focus on early steps.


IMO, the steps are a way to give some structure to recovery but aren't the be all and end all. I've been around the steps for over 20 years and have not formally "done the steps". This isn't ideal, but my point would be that at meetings and in focused IC you learn about addiction, addict thinking, your own addict thinking, the alternatives to addict thinking, why it's imperative to be and stay sober, how to get and stay sober...then at some point, you work steps 4-12 with a sponsor to do as much as possible to change (fix) the person you brought into the halls of recovery. 

Does your wife have a sponsor? This is VERY important! Without a sponsor I can convince myself that I'm doing what I need to do while I hang around the edges and coast. A sponsor helps you be honest with yourself by not allowing you to con yourself. Addicts have a "thinking problem". My best addict thinking has lead to all the problems. That has to be changed. One can't do it without help.



Tover26 said:


> Do in person versus phone meetings make much of a difference?


Especially early on, I can't see myself "getting it" by doing on-line meetings. I'm sure they don't hurt as a supplement when there is no local meeting, but the real local meetings arethe way to go for me.



Tover26 said:


> To be honest, I have a hard time believing that she goes to the meetings and have a huge temptation to follow her and see where she actually goes. And then I hit myself upside the head and remember, "What's the point?"


Accountability, she to you, is so important and at the same time so difficult. Short of a GPS (that actually works) to pinpoint one's whereabouts, what can really be done? A GPS that is not accurate will make things worse! 

I hate to say that my last affair took place exclusively on Tuesday nights. I was supposed to be at an AA meeting. When trying to build trust regarding going to SLAA meetings, I was punting from deep in my own end zone.

Are you seeing an IC as the spouse of a sex addict? It would help you to have help from that perspective. You need support, someone who knows about this to talk to, and tools to deal with your issues and the emotions that come with them.


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## Tover26 (Oct 29, 2011)

morituri said:


> With sex being a major component of a healthy marriage, how does it get reintroduced into a marriage with a SA spouse?


THAT is a question I have struggled with on my own and in IC. After all, for a sex addict wouldn't having sex be like giving crack to a crack addict? The response from IC is, like what the OP said, there is a thrill of "acting out". Healthy sex in a healthy relationship isn't the issue. The issue, according to IC, is that they resort to "acting out"... masturbation, porn, affairs, ONS, drugs, and so on... as part of the addiction. THEY AREN'T ADDICTED TO MARITAL SEX RIGHT? I must have had that nearly yelled at me in every IC session. The goal of therapy and the 12 steps is to replace the sexual "acting out" with other behaviors... and let me tell you what... my wife - holy hell. She has run the gamut on replacement addictions these past 2 months... Volcano Taco Bell tacos, tuna subs from a particular restaurant, we're raising chickens now :scratchhead:, a preccupation with hunting (that has yet to result in any hunting because you have to wake up too early), credit card spending (she's maxxed out both her cards), certain genres of music and songs over and over again till I want to claw my ears off, and mega spicy food that feels like you're getting peppemaced if you get too close to it. I hope she settles on a replacement addiction that involves being happy at work, taking pride in her children's accomplishments and actually wanting to share those accomplishments with them, and I wouldn't complain if developed an obsession with giving me shoulder massages. 

But the addiction thing still bothers me even going 2 months into it. My wife had quite the collection of toys and her IC required her to throw them all away. She tried to negotiate some of it with me and I was like, "um, what is the point of therapy if you're going to negotiate treatment? You going to try and negotiate our marital vows too?" This was the only time I really saw her acting like an addict. 

Morituri, here's the problem... I feel so f'ing insecure around her sexually. She herself is my biggest trigger. Her going to SAA meetings is like rubbing my face in it and it is hard for me to accept this as a real addiction... Let me tell you. Nothing gets chemistry going like having your wife come home from an SAA or SLAA 12 step! After all, I like sex too but I didn't go out and maliciously seek thrills all over the f'ing place. The "addiction" feels like an excuse to me. My wife has yet to blame her affairs on it being an addiction, but by the nature of the situation we're in, it is hard to accept. It would be easier for me if my wife just came out and said, "You know what? I fell out of love with you and got freaked out and did some really f'd up stupid things. I'm sorry. How would you like this to end?" I look at that compared to months of recovery... and the only thing I can find that lends credence to "sexual addiction" is the dismal recovery rate on par with heroin recovery. 

So, sex in the marriage gets reintroduced at great peril with good times and awful times. Since DDay#1, I think I have deeply regretted any form of intimacy with her almost immediately because of something she said or did during or after, or some new lie coming out as part of the DDay#2 ramp up. Since DDay #2 it's been better, but I'd be lying if I said that while making love to her I don't speculate THE ENTIRE TIME wondering if she wished I were a vibrator, she were alone, or she was with one of her lovers. I think it'll be a long time before I look at her and feel like she's actually with me.

On "Light Years Apart"... yeah, my wife and I are there too. It's the nature of affair recovery, let alone an addiction. Communication is awful under awesome circumstances and you've got one person wanting XYZ and then the betrayed spouse looking for assassins and jumping at shadows. I finally asked her, what do you want in a husband you could actually stay faithful to? One of her things is "financially stable"... and it dropped me; she may as well have kicked me in the crotch because next month I lose my job because of epilepsy issues triggered by her affairs and wanting a divorce (after 5 years of no seizures at all). Sighs. She was honest though. I'll give her that. 

Faithful... you're not going to win the 90s affair thing you know. It's a lose-lose for you. If you push back she'll think you're being defensive. If you admit to it, she'll say Gotcha! I would suggest a roundabout approach of showing her you love her with actions... and if she brings up the 90s affair, gently interrupt her and say something like, "Why just yesterday I did this to show you I love you. I never did that for her. I was stupid and that was a mistake. Let me make this right for you. What can I do right now to show you how much I love you?"


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## Tover26 (Oct 29, 2011)

Is it common for sponsors and addicts to spend lots of time together? 

Reason I ask is that last night, wife left at 630 for a 7 pm 1 hr 12 step SAA meeting. So, it ended at 8. I knew she was going to get together with her sponsor. She came home at 1130. She didn't call or text or do anything to indicate she would be out this late. I'm furious that a) she couldn't be bothered to text me or call and say, "Hey, it's getting late. I'm with so and so and then this other lady who joined us. We're at this place. I should be home by TIME but am not really sure."

It would have taken 30 seconds. Instead, I stewed for hours wondering what my wife who had lesbian affairs was doing with a recovering sex addict for almost 3.5 hours after the meeting. I was ready for an hour or something, so home by 9ish. But near midnight?

When I confronted her about it, she got soooo f'ing mad. Fearful... I strongly recommend you NOT do this. I can't even begin to tell you how it feels as a betrayed spouse to be sitting at home while your spouse is doing God knows what with God knows who that they met at a sex addiction meeting. I'm literally ready to end the relationship just on her getting mad about it.


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## fearful55 (Feb 15, 2012)

Tover26 said:


> Is it common for sponsors and addicts to spend lots of time together?
> 
> Reason I ask is that last night, wife left at 630 for a 7 pm 1 hr 12 step SAA meeting. So, it ended at 8. I knew she was going to get together with her sponsor. She came home at 1130. She didn't call or text or do anything to indicate she would be out this late. I'm furious that a) she couldn't be bothered to text me or call and say, "Hey, it's getting late. I'm with so and so and then this other lady who joined us. We're at this place. I should be home by TIME but am not really sure."
> 
> ...


Tover,

Sorry just seeing this today. One of the first things that was stressed when my wife and I began couples therapy was that I have to be accountable to the very best of my ability. Accounting for where I am and what I'm doing has been hard. There's no way to confirm really that I've been at a meeting. IMO, your wife needs to tell her sponsor that she got angry about this so her sponsor can set her straight. She should ask around at meetings or share that she thinks this was unreasonable on your part. She was completely wrong for not keeping you updated that night and should be proactively being accountable at all times without you asking. You don't feel safe and you don't trust her. She has to be in agreement that she has caused this and is responsible to address it and do her best to make you feel safe so that trust can be repaired.


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## Tover26 (Oct 29, 2011)

It's a beautiful day here. My WW is off to IC an hour ago. Then she will be off to an SAA meeting. Then with her sponsor. I won't see her till maybe 10 pm...? I feel like a single father.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Have you spoken to her about how this has turned a bit into project all about fixing her at anycost? While she certainly has serious issues, it sounds like the therapy is almost becoming an escape for her like the cheating was.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

My husband is anal about letting me know where he is at all times now. Not only does it ease my mind, but it makes him accountable too.

If she isn't doing that, then there's a problem.


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## Tover26 (Oct 29, 2011)

I'm taking daughters camping tonight and won't be back till late tomorrow. It's a father/daugther thing. First time my wife will be alone since this started. It'll be fun to be with the kids and they've been dying to go camping... but I'm just feeling dread and sick to my stomach. 

Hope, the wine glasses look like the Pringles moustache.


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## Tover26 (Oct 29, 2011)

She is almost done with her 90 in 90, and is about 20% through Step 4.


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## scientia (Aug 27, 2012)

Tover26 said:


> THAT is a question I have struggled with on my own and in IC. After all, for a sex addict wouldn't having sex be like giving crack to a crack addict?


I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding about addictions. Even though the word "addiction" is commonly used there are differences.

Chemical dependencies are true addictions because the body becomes used to the substance. Thus you have a pleasurable feeling associated with the use of the substance and a physical hardship when stopping. A similar withdrawal condition is hypoglycemia. When blood sugar falls after about five hours symptoms can include nausea, shaking, sweating, weakness, and dizziness.

Paraphilias. These include behavioral disorders where people do things to get a rush. Compulsive gamblers, hair pullers, shopaholics, and sometimes cutters fit into this category. Similar rush seeking behaviors can include things like skydiving, bungee jumping, and riding roller coasters.

Compulsive behaviors. These are fear based. OCD, hoarding and sometimes excessive couponing fall into this category. These are related to phobias but different in that phobias are avoidance behaviors whereas compulsions are pro-active.

You make a huge mistake in assuming that sex addiction would be anything like an addiction to crack. No one ever has sex withdrawal symptoms nor does anyone ever overdose on sex. Sex is also a pleasurable and routine behavior for about 95% of the population.

Obviously there are many sexual dysfunctions but from your description I can't discern what your wife's dysfunction would be. Does she engage in risky behavior such as picking up dangerous looking strangers? Does she substitute sex for affection? Does she seek extreme sadistic or masochistic sex? Things like these would be obvious problems. You have mentioned affairs but the vast majority of affairs have nothing at all to do with sexual dysfunction. Are you and she affectionate and comfortable with affection? Do you each desire each other? Are you both comfortable with the types of sexual activities and the frequency?



> The response from IC is, like what the OP said, there is a thrill of "acting out".


That would be a paraphilia but this would not include most sexual dysfunctions or even most of what is commonly labeled as sexual addiction.



> Healthy sex in a healthy relationship isn't the issue. The issue, according to IC, is that they resort to "acting out"... masturbation, porn, affairs, ONS, drugs, and so on... as part of the addiction.


This description is false. Flashing someone is a paraphilia but masturbation is not. Erotic material has been around for at least 2,500 years; note that the entire World's population has not developed sexual addiction because of it. Erotic material and masturbation by themselves can be as normal and healthy as playing video games. One-night-stands can indicate a problem. Drugs would be a different issue.



> She has run the gamut on replacement addictions these past 2 months... Volcano Taco Bell tacos, tuna subs from a particular restaurant, we're raising chickens now :scratchhead:, a preccupation with hunting (that has yet to result in any hunting because you have to wake up too early)


None of these things sound like a problem. However, I would have to ask if either you or your wife have or share any hobbies. For example, painting, writing, making stained glass, sewing, woodworking, sailing, horseback riding, etc. Do you have any family activities like riding bikes together or doing a jigsaw puzzle?



> credit card spending (she's maxxed out both her cards)


That could be a paraphilia.



> certain genres of music and songs over and over again till I want to claw my ears off


This by itself doesn't sound like a problem but your coping skills do seem dysfunctional.



> and mega spicy food that feels like you're getting peppemaced if you get too close to it.


This is not a problem; this is simply a matter of taste and sensitivity to certain chemicals. When food was too spicy for me to eat my late wife could barely taste the spice. People do vary in many aspects including height, weight, hair and eye color, etc. And, not surprisingly they can vary in terms of taste in food and music. What you want is the seasoning or spicy sauce separate so that you can add to taste.



> I hope she settles on a replacement addiction that involves being happy at work, taking pride in her children's accomplishments and actually wanting to share those accomplishments with them


These sound normal issues unrelated to anything sexual. Are you seeking counseling for these things?



> and I wouldn't complain if developed an obsession with giving me shoulder massages.


Do you give her massages?



> But the addiction thing still bothers me even going 2 months into it. My wife had quite the collection of toys and her IC required her to throw them all away. She tried to negotiate some of it with me and I was like, "um, what is the point of therapy if you're going to negotiate treatment?


Sexual toys are not by themselves a problem. Do these involve extreme sadism or masochism? Many healthy and sexually normal adults use toys.



> You going to try and negotiate our marital vows too?" This was the only time I really saw her acting like an addict.


So would you say the same thing about, say, a pair of shoes? Would liking a pair of shoes or a sweater also threaten your marriage vows? Keep in mind that a sex toy is just an object; it doesn't actually do anything by itself.



> I feel so f'ing insecure around her sexually.


Let me ask you a simple question. Could you help someone cross a bridge if you yourself were afraid of heights? Probably not. So how can you give her a safe sexual environment where she does not feel threatened, abused, insulted, or ridiculed if you have sexual issues of your own?



> She herself is my biggest trigger.


The problem with having a trigger is that eventually you'll end up shooting off your own foot. 



> Her going to SAA meetings is like rubbing my face in it and it is hard for me to accept this as a real addiction... Let me tell you. Nothing gets chemistry going like having your wife come home from an SAA or SLAA 12 step! After all, I like sex too but I didn't go out and maliciously seek thrills all over the f'ing place.


I wonder if your bedroom is big enough to hold all this extra fear and resentment. This really isn't about getting even or labeling someone. The bottom line is whether or not you and your wife can live together and be happy or whether or not the two of you are so incompatible that you can't.

Two people are always going to be different in some ways and to be honest I have to wonder when you are making food sound like an ethical issue how you might sound to her in terms of sex. I'm not trying to pick on you. It is also a truth that you do need to feel that you can trust someone and you also need to feel comfortable with your relationship. But have you made an honest assessment of whether your sexual preferences truly overlap with hers? Is what she prefers truly dysfunctional or is it merely something that you are uncomfortable with? The best I can do is to say that you need to be very careful about assigning ethical considerations to activities. Wanting to use a sex toy does not make someone immoral or a sex addict. Wanting oral or anal sex doesn't either. Most sexual activities do not involve ethics. It's really only ethical when you knowingly inflict harm on someone.



> It would be easier for me if my wife just came out and said, "You know what? I fell out of love with you and got freaked out and did some really f'd up stupid things. I'm sorry. How would you like this to end?"


Have you discussed love with your wife? Have you been honest with her about your feelings? Have you even been honest with yourself about your feelings?



> and the only thing I can find that lends credence to "sexual addiction" is the dismal recovery rate on par with heroin recovery.


Actually I can say with great certainty that no such evidence exists. But I really don't know enough about your situation to give you an estimate of success.



> So, sex in the marriage gets reintroduced at great peril with good times and awful times.


Where does the peril come from?



> but I'd be lying if I said that while making love to her I don't speculate THE ENTIRE TIME wondering if she wished I were a vibrator, she were alone, or she was with one of her lovers.


This is way too big of a burden for you to carry. You really need to discuss this with your wife. If you have trouble talking then write your feelings down. DO NOT assign blame. Make statements about how YOU feel. For example, if you say, "I can't believe you betrayed our marriage by cheating on me," you won't get anywhere. Instead you say, "When you cheated on me I felt worthless and unlovable." The difference is that with the second version your wife isn't defending herself. If she cares for you then she will respond to your feelings. You also want similar statements from her about how she felt. Oh, and stop using the phrase "acting out". That is extremely patronizing. Don't ask her why she did something. These things seldom have a logical basis. Most of the time they are based on feelings. If you truly care for her then you want to know what her feelings were.

If she truly was engaging in a paraphilia, in other words a behavior that gave her a rush because it was forbidden or risky then you might try other rush activities. The ones that come to mind include skydiving, bungee jumping, rock wall climbing, and amusement park rides. However, there is some indication that almost any physical activity can help with impulse control issues.



> I think it'll be a long time before I look at her and feel like she's actually with me.


No. If you want to move forward you have to commit to a good outcome. No one ever has a successful sports team by being skeptical. No one ever builds a successful company by hanging back and letting things happen on their own. You have to be more pro-active, you have to compromise, and you have to share your feelings and be vulnerable. It isn't easy but I don't know of any other way to do it. Facing fear is the primary way of treating phobias and I might guess that your fear and possibly hers is driving a big wedge between you.



> Communication is awful under awesome circumstances and you've got one person wanting XYZ and then the betrayed spouse looking for assassins and jumping at shadows.


You have to let this go. If she has another affair then she does. It won't be fun but it won't kill you. You will survive it and move on. You need to move forward now based on what you want, not what you don't want or are afraid will happen. I can assure you that the Apollo missions were very hazardous and if the astronauts had worried about what could happen all the time they could not have functioned.



> I finally asked her, what do you want in a husband you could actually stay faithful to? One of her things is "financially stable"... and it dropped me; she may as well have kicked me in the crotch because next month I lose my job because of epilepsy issues triggered by her affairs and wanting a divorce (after 5 years of no seizures at all). Sighs. She was honest though. I'll give her that.


Who is seeking blame now? Epilepsy is bad but it also is not your fault. Sit down and make up a list of possible things you could do where epilepsy would not be an issue. My cousin has epilepsy. It prevents her from swimming, driving, and a number of other things but it doesn't stop her from doing everything.


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## scientia (Aug 27, 2012)

Tover26 said:


> Instead, I stewed for hours wondering what my wife who had lesbian affairs was doing with a recovering sex addict for almost 3.5 hours after the meeting


This makes as much sense as sitting at home pounding your own hand with a hammer. You are falling into the trap of confrontation and assigning blame. And, this tells you absolutely nothing. You instead say, "I'm glad you're home. I was really worried about you."
This again means sharing your feelings and being vulnerable but unlike the first this actually tells you something. If she cares for you then she will respond to your feelings.



> I can't even begin to tell you how it feels as a betrayed spouse to be sitting at home while your spouse is doing God knows what with God knows who that they met at a sex addiction meeting. I'm literally ready to end the relationship just on her getting mad about it.


Confrontation, accusations, and assigning blame will almost always provoke defensive behavior even if the person has done nothing wrong. The fact that she got mad does not actually tell you anything. Again, share your feelings and see what she does. This is what you really want to know. If she no longer has feelings for you then you can begin planning to separate. If you try to move forward based on the idea of restitution or that she has to prove to you that you can trust her you are very likely to fail.

She needs to know that you value her as a person rather than that she exists only as a moral punching bag. This type of behavior would tend to drive most people away whether there were any other issues in the marriage or not. To be perfectly honest if this really is the way you act it wouldn't surprise me if she didn't want to discuss these issues with you.


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## Tover26 (Oct 29, 2011)

Scientia, thanks for the posts... I think. I read through your stuff and it's obvious you put a lot of effort into writing this but honestly, if I was 100% committed to reconciling, I would not have ever posted in TAM in the first place. At this point, I should relabel thread to include... "and then she decided that she isn't a sex addict".

I have never been a believer in "sex addiction" and there has been nothing about this experience that has made me a believer at all. The 12 step process has been interesting to observe, but at my core, I fundamentally lack the ability to disconnect myself from everything that my wife has done and look at it scientifically. I'm looking at it through the lens of "what do I have to do to protect my kids from this woman?" If she chose, as she did, to label it sex addiction for 3 months, great. I still got to observe what the 12 step is and be the betrayed spouse sitting there watching it all unfold. Nothing about that program did anything to rebuild trust or help towards a reconciliation... if anything, it made things worse because here she is nearing the end of a 12 step her therapist wanted her to do, but she never really truly believed herself an addict. 

For all the things you bring up, it's all very valid points for someone past the affairs and betrayals and utterly committed to rainbows, sunshine, and unicorns. I'm not. The affairs and betrayals are very much with me and I never believed in unicorns to begin with. Feel free to find the thread outlining what happened.

To answer all of your questions... if I had ever suspected any of this when we were dating, there would not have been a next date.


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## ashamedfool (Jan 19, 2015)

fearful55 said:


> ... as part of our dating, we discussed things like sexual misbehaviors, drugs, affairs, etc. I understood that we were on exactly the same page. The issue that keeps coming back is... had I known or even suspected that my wife was capable of any of these things, there would not have been a next date.


I relate to this very strongly. My WS was acting out AS she was dating me. I made my morals and values very clear up front (I don't think we even kissed until 7-8th date). I am very traditional monogamous kind of guy. She lied to me in so many ways I feel so betrayed.

Fast forward three years and now I love her and I've raised her two kids. No what?


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

ashamedfool said:


> I relate to this very strongly. My WS was acting out AS she was dating me. I made my morals and values very clear up front (I don't think we even kissed until 7-8th date). I am very traditional monogamous kind of guy. She lied to me in so many ways I feel so betrayed.
> 
> Fast forward three years and now I love her and I've raised her two kids. No what?


It's worth noting that (a) this thread in nearly 3 years old and (b) the last reply prior to yours was almost 2 1/2 years ago.

Also... w/ respect to the "her kids" comment... do you mean that you've discovered that your children aren't actually your biological offspring, or are you referring to her children from a previous marriage/relationship?


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