# Something for all Men in Dead Bedroom situations to read (and maybe women too)



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

So I came across this post today on a blog and I think men need to understand this stuff. Read the comments as well. This will probably be a difficult read for some but I think it's important for guys stuck in this situation to understand - AND ASK YOUR WIFE POINT BLANK if she feels that way.

If you read the comments it become clear that lots of these women don't even think about the loss that there husbands face by being married to them. They pat themselves on the back for keeping their family together while talking about the great sacrifice they made just by allowing themselves to be touched. I don't know about you, but if my wife felt this way about me I would want to know so I could divorce her.

What is profound is how many women say I marred him because he was a good man but I had to psych myself up to have sex with him. What a terribly unfair and gross thing to do to someone, yet they write about it like it's badge of honor. It's an interesting window into how some women think. I read about 200 comments and not ONE said anything about how their husband would feel. No guilt, nothing. It's like is an appliance and he is SO LUCKY TO HAVE THE PRIVILEGE TO BE WITH HER. There seems to be no recognition that this guy could have met someone else who was into him.

One of the most illuminating things that I have learned from reading on these sites for the past years is how clear it is that LOTS of women do not even acknowledge men as emotional human beings. They just completely discount their agency, and are not even hide it. They write about it in glowing terms because they are so oblivious to it. They are just seen as tools by so many of these people.

The other thing is how so many of the posters point to a past history of abuse.

Now there are many reasons for why you might be in a Dead Bedroom situation, a big part of which might be how you treat your wife emotionally. That being said I think this is also what a lot of guys are facing in Dead Bedroom situations and as painful as it is if you want better you have to face it. I think young men should also read this stuff so they can look for red flags. Nothing is worse then only being chosen for your stability.

I Love My Husband But I'm Not Sexually Attracted to Him


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

All these poor saps being used as an ATM and baby sitter. Makes me sad for them that they don't have any self respect or self worth.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

I couldn’t even read it all the way. Disgusting…


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

ccpowerslave said:


> I couldn’t even read it all the way. Disgusting…


Saddest part? These women are cheered as being brave


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Numb26 said:


> Saddest part? These women are cheered as being brave


Yeah it was reading like that and I was like man why you need to harsh my mellow with stupid trash like this.

Have some self respect and leave IMO.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

ccpowerslave said:


> Yeah it was reading like that and I was like man why you need to harsh my mellow with stupid trash like this.
> 
> Have some self respect and leave IMO.


Boys are being raised to be Beta cucks


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

sokillme said:


> So I came across this post today on a blog and I think men need to understand this stuff. Read the comments as well. This will probably be a difficult read for some but I think it's important for guys stuck in this situation to understand - AND ASK YOUR WIFE POINT BLANK if she feels that way.
> 
> If you read the comments it become clear that lots of these women don't even think about the loss that there husbands face by being married to them. They pat themselves on the back for keeping their family together while talking about the great sacrifice they made just by allowing themselves to be touched. I don't know about you, but if my wife felt this way about me I would want to know so I could divorce her.
> 
> ...


It's also amazing that many women think they are such a prize that it should count for anything to the husband that he was chosen to be the one that married her.
I've seen that statement made a thousand times here when women discount their men's feelings of finding out about her conduct before they married.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Numb26 said:


> Boys are being raised to be Beta cucks


The person who wrote that is literally evil. They should be ashamed of themselves but they’re not. Instead they blog about it and get “you go girl”-s.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

ccpowerslave said:


> The person who wrote that is literally evil. They should be ashamed of themselves but they’re not. Instead they blog about it and get “you go girl”-s.


It's the brave new world. Why I basically left the US


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

It's messed up that is for sure but I didn't post this to be a lets bash women thread. Or to have this thread become a RedPill manifesto post. As you probably know I think RP is ********. I think it's a small subset of women who do this, and I think it's abuse. I can believe RP is ******** but also believe there have always been area's where man are not treated fairly as well. And I probably should have said Men do this too, but it's not as prevalent. Men do other awful things.

I have sympathy for someone who loses their attraction to their spouse, it happens. But to act like you are doing them a favor or that YOU are the one making the sacrifice. Again I wouldn't want to be with someone who felt that way about me. Then again maybe that is part of the reasons why I don't believe my wife does. I suspect it's partly the passive nature of their husbands that keeps them in the situation but also makes them less attractive. I mean there is a post from a guy who says he is a husband in this situation. His reaction, "how do we live with this" is part of the problem.

There is a clear Misandry in tone that they don't even see.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

The Western male has been feminized, emasculated and beaten down


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Numb26 said:


> It's the brave new world. Why I basically left the US


I mean the other thing is the guy should literally F the S out of her and rock her world but he probably can’t. He’s probably not even paying attention and seeing that she’s not into it at all.

Sad…


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

sokillme said:


> It's messed up that is for sure. There is a clear Misandry in tone that they don't even see.


But we have men on this forum who stay in sexless marriages because "everything else about the marriage is great" and "but I love her so much." 

It is horrible, yes, the attitudes of women like this, but at the end is the day, it takes 2 to remain in a crap sexless marriage and the men stay, and they should have been able to tell years ago she wasn't into him but chose to ignore it. Because they loooove her so much!


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

ccpowerslave said:


> I mean the other thing is the guy should literally F the S out of her and rock her world but he probably can’t. He’s probably not even paying attention and seeing that she’s not into it at all.
> 
> Sad…


I think part of this is true, and it's probably why she isn't so into him. In those cases i don't feel bad. But the comments where the women go into it knowing they are not attracted and marry them anyway. What a terribly cruel thing to do to someone.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Livvie said:


> But we have men on this forum who stay in sexless marriages because "everything else about the marriage is great" and "but I love her so much."
> 
> It is horrible, yes, the attitudes of women like this, but at the end is the day, it takes 2 to remain in a crap sexless marriage and the men stay, and they should have been able to tell years ago she wasn't into him but chose to ignore it. Because they loooove her so much!


This is 💯 the case. You gotta leave that on the side of the road like yesterday’s road kill.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

That article is actually pretty tame and functional. She just said he doesn't get her fires burn'n,, she never said she was rejecting him or that they were no longer being intimate in any way. 

I think it's actually much much worse for these guys on here who's wives have been rejecting them for a year or more. 

If you really want to have your eyes opened, spend some time reading the Low Libido forum over at Reddit. You'll quickly see that it's often not just a case of someone marrying the decent guy because he treats her decently and is good marriage and father material but just doesn't turn her on all that much. 

In less than 20 minutes of reading that forum, you will see that the people actually rejecting their spouses and keeping them at arm's length are actually full of resentment and bitterness and at times actual hatred. 

It's not that they are not in the mood and are distracted by kids and bills and dirty dishes piling up in the sink - they have an actual disgust and repulsion at the thought of being touched by their H's.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

This is why there is a process to deal with these situations. 

Men (or women, as it were) just need to have the stones to follow it. 

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Livvie said:


> But we have men on this forum who stay in sexless marriages because "everything else about the marriage is great" and "but I love her so much."
> 
> It is horrible, yes, the attitudes of women like this, but at the end is the day, it takes 2 to remain in a crap sexless marriage and the men stay, and they should have been able to tell years ago she wasn't into him but chose to ignore it. Because they loooove her so much!


Yep, sex just isn't a priority for some. Also sometimes medical stuff causes the issue. That is different then choosing to marry someone knowing the whole time you have no attraction to them, just because they are safe. So wrong.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> That article is actually pretty tame and functional. She just said he doesn't get her fires burn'n,, she never said she was rejecting him or that they were no longer being intimate in any way.
> 
> I think it's actually much much worse for these guys on here who's wives have been rejecting them for a year or more.
> 
> ...


Yeah that matches the comments. I guess I shouldn't be surprised. Once you read the Adultery sup on reddit nothing should really surprise me.


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## thunderchad (12 mo ago)

Alpha ****s, beta bucks


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

sokillme said:


> Yeah that matches the comments. I guess I shouldn't be surprised. Once you read the Adultery sup on reddit nothing should really surprise me.


I missed the comments after the article. 

That is the must-read for everyone. 

This should be a sticky and any time someone comes here saying their wife has no interest in the bedroom, the first order of business is to read all of the comments so they can see what they are up against.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

oldshirt said:


> I missed the comments after the article.
> 
> That is the must-read for everyone.
> 
> This should be a sticky and any time someone comes here saying their wife has no interest in the bedroom, the first order of business is to read all of the comments so they can see what they are up against.


Or not even mess with the reasons and just leave


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

Numb26 said:


> Or not even mess with the reasons and just leave


its a trap.
they somehow get you to believe they love you, then you have a couple kids you love, and only THEN do they tell you "No more sex, buddy, forever". so its not just dumping their skank azz on the curb, you would be dumping the kids to, and dooming them to be brought up by said skank.

there is not great solution, unless somehow you could get full custody.


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## thunderchad (12 mo ago)

Numb26 said:


> Or not even mess with the reasons and just leave


For a younger, hotter model.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

Talker67 said:


> its a trap.
> they somehow get you to believe they love you, then you have a couple kids you love, and only THEN do they tell you "No more sex, buddy, forever". so its not just dumping their skank azz on the curb, you would be dumping the kids to, and dooming them to be brought up by said skank.
> 
> there is not great solution, unless somehow you could get full custody.


Sometimes you just have to take your loses for your own sanity


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Numb26 said:


> Or not even mess with the reasons and just leave


It's hard to "just leave" when you don't know what the actual situation is..... downright irresponsible in fact. 

As a society we are presented with the narrative that wives are just over stressed with kids and work and domestic chores and just need more support and housekeeping assistance and that the evil male sex drive is just putting more stress and pressure on the poor little thing and is something that must be suppressed. 

Leaving is not the default solution that immediately comes to mind when the whole society is telling you that all that is needed is to do more household chores, help with the kids more and provide more date nights and back rubs. 

It becomes a whole different ballgame when you realize that she is actually disgusted and revolted by you.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

oldshirt said:


> It becomes a whole different ballgame when you realize that she is actually disgusted and revolted by you.


Exactly! These "men" need to grow a set and throw off what they have been taught by society and learn to have self respect. Leave and life their lives!


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

Ill be honest....the couple of guys I know in that situations have just got what they needed out on the street...truth is, I don't blame them....

And you know what the funniest part of that aspect is?

Those same women you are referring to in the OP, are the first one's to sit around and cry and moan about how "he soooo betrayed me"..😭, when it's finally exposed....GTFOH with that garbage...

I will say one thing, though, and it's not to defend women for being mean and ignoring men sexually....A LOT of men think that once they married a woman, that they don't have to do anything but show up and get free blow jobs for life....it doesn't really work that way...Maybe take some time and assess what you look like, smell like, your physique, etc...A lot of people like to say men are all visual, but that doesn't mean women are blind and stupid...And if you want your woman to want you sexually, make sure you are ****able in the first place...

I'll say it again....You pick someone(this is a man or woman, btw) and you aren't paying attention to sexual attraction, then do so at your own peril..


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

hamadryad said:


> Ill be honest....the couple of guys I know in that situations have just got what they needed out on the street...truth is, I don't blame them....
> 
> And you know what the funniest part of that aspect is?
> 
> ...


I think many women also think there is no work to do for them to keep their spouse motivated to love them.
I can't count the number of times on TAM that I've read a female poster expressing the sentiment that she is a prize and the husband won when she chose him. 
Definitely maintain your spouse. That's a principle people aren't taught enough in life.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> I missed the comments after the article.
> 
> That is the must-read for everyone.
> 
> This should be a sticky and any time someone comes here saying their wife has no interest in the bedroom, the first order of business is to read all of the comments so they can see what they are up against.


Why I posted it.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

hamadryad said:


> I will say one thing, though, and it's not to defend women for being mean and ignoring men sexually....A LOT of men think that once they married a woman, that they don't have to do anything but show up and get free blow jobs for life....it doesn't really work that way...Maybe take some time and assess what you look like, smell like, your physique, etc...A lot of people like to say men are all visual, but that doesn't mean women are blind and stupid...And if you want your woman to want you sexually, make sure you are ****able in the first place...


100% agree with this, some of the comments are like, my husband put on 50 pounds and doesn't care, so I am not attracted to him. In those cases I don't blame the wife. Or the men who constantly put down their wife, or treat her like their Mother. Why should she have sex with you. Or even the men who think their wives are going to get hot and bothered because you do the dishes. Does your wife doing the dishes get you hot and bothered? 

Also like someone said, some of these guys are so passive that by the time they are stuck in the dead bedroom situation the wife is so sick of making every decision or him genuflecting that there is no way she could be attracted to him anymore.

To some extent part of this is the fact that until recently men were not even taught about women's sex drive and attraction, particularly in America that still has this puritan influence. Hell they hat to show twin beds on TV until Lucy said "this is stupid". But really guys need to learn. Just like you want your wife to try to be attractive for you, you have to do the same. For a lot of women that starts with being emotionally close, but it doesn't end there!

But I really feel bad for the guys who are married the ones, post after post, who said the were never attracted to there husbands and only marrying them because they came from a bad background and the guy made them feel safe. Those are just so sad and a horrible thing to do to a person. 

I think these women carried their dysfunctional background into the whole choice of who to marry and then the marriage itself. What's interesting is it seems a lot of the stories were from women growing up abused or dating abusive guys who damaged them and used them for sex, in the process denying their worth and agency. These women don't see it but they turned around and did the same thing to the guys the married. Only difference is they used the husbands for stability but denying these guys worth and agency when it came to the normal need to have a healthy sexual relationship in their marriage. To me it's a very similar kind of abuse.

I think when you are abused sex gets all messed up, so one of the reasons they my not be attracted to these guys is because an unhealthy sexual dynamic became normalized. They may need that to stir them on. Also if you just come from a relationship where the sexual dynamic is unhealthy it may be some years where you even want care about sex, if ever. Maybe you just want a time out. So they don't prioritize it until later.

If I had a kid I would say pay attention to who they were dating and what that relationship was like.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

I feel compelled to point out that for a lot of human history this is pretty much how marriage functioned....essentially a business deal with sexual access. Whether fires were burning wasn't really a concern.

And to the extent sexual attraction was an issue it was only allowed to be a concern for men because women couldn't support themselves. When you can't do for yourself who you want to **** becomes far less important then who will make a good partner.

Things are hopefully changing but even when I was younger it was quite acceptable for a guy to pass up an otherwise good woman because he wasn't attracted to her. But try being a woman who tells her family and friends that a great, successful guy wants her but she's going to pass because she's not attracted to him. Few will understand that....female sexuality isn't considered as important.

And men willingly enter into arrangements like this all the time when they wave money in the face of someone younger and hotter then they could get with attraction alone...they just tell themselves that she's really into them because it's what they want to believe.

It's important that we encourage our daughters to rank sexual attraction highly along with other character qualities so they are are less inclined to hitch themselves to men who don't do it for them. Men should also be encouraged to pay close attention to whether she really wants him or if she just puts out. There's a difference and most of is can feel it.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

sokillme said:


> 100% agree with this, some of the comments are like, my husband put on 50 pounds and doesn't care, so I am not attracted to him. In those cases I don't blame the wife. Or the men who constantly put down their wife, or treat her like their Mother. Why should she have sex with you. Or even the men who think their wives are going to get hot and bothered because you do the dishes. Does your wife doing the dishes get you hot and bothered?
> 
> Also like someone said, some of these guys are so passive that by the time they are stuck in the dead bedroom situation the wife is so sick of making every decision or him genuflecting that there is no way she could be attracted to him anymore.
> 
> ...


Many women learned to use their sexuality in a transactional manner, so they never learned how to use it to bring joy to their lives. 
I've also seen that theme over and over.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

jonty30 said:


> Many women learned to use their sexuality in a transactional manner, so they never learned how to use it to bring joy to their lives.
> I've also seen that theme over and over.


This is true, but let's not forget that transactions only work when you have a buyer

Guys accept and participate in the transaction and then get upset that it was a transaction. 

Its a hard dynamic to break.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

lifeistooshort said:


> This is true, but let's not forget that transactions only work when you have a buyer
> 
> Guys accept and participate in the transaction and then get upset that it was a transaction.
> 
> Its a hard dynamic to break.


I can tell you the value of the words, if you can mean them, "You don't have to have sex with me. I just want to enjoy your company." will blow most women's minds because they are so used to the idea of using sex to keep a guy.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

jonty30 said:


> I can tell you the value of the words, if you can mean them, "You don't have to have sex with me. I just want to enjoy your company." will blow most women's minds because they are so used to the idea of using sex to keep a guy.



Nothing wrong with wanting sex....one just has to be on the lookout for mutual attraction.

My bf told me he felt it with me and it was definitely there and still is.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

lifeistooshort said:


> Nothing wrong with wanting sex....one just has to be on the lookout for mutual attraction.
> 
> My bf told me he felt it with me and it was definitely there and still is.


I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with sex. I'm saying women are not used to the idea that a guy wants to be with them for the sake of her company and not her body.
My experience is that it strikes something deep down with them.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

Numb26 said:


> Saddest part? These women are cheered as being brave


Only thing missing from the article was the word "stunning". I notice that leftists and feminists are quick to use brave and stunning I. QUICK succession. 


This article was absolutely disgusting and I will be sharing it with my wife tomorrow for sure. I agree wholeheartedly with sokillme. If I got a whiff that my wife wasn't attracted to me, that'd be it. I know where the front door is. I can show myself out.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

Livvie said:


> But we have men on this forum who stay in sexless marriages because "everything else about the marriage is great" and "but I love her so much."
> 
> It is horrible, yes, the attitudes of women like this, but at the end is the day, it takes 2 to remain in a crap sexless marriage and the men stay, and they should have been able to tell years ago she wasn't into him but chose to ignore it. Because they loooove her so much!


It is a lot more complicated, I promise you. When you have a spouse who hides everything because she is extremely avoidant, and the husband wasn't armed with knowledge as to how to solve the problem for many years.... well, it isnt as easy as what it appears to be. My personal dead bedroom is fixed - permanently. My wife will not allow us to dip below a weekly threshold ever again because she knows I'll leave at the drop of a hat now. She knows there is no chance I will ever allow myself to be put into that prison again. 

Clearly, we have a lot to work through. I have a massive crap ton of resentment to let go. To be honest, I'm not even sure I can. Doesn't matter how much I love my wife. Doesn't matter that she came back to me. 

This article hit me like a ton of bricks tonight. If I were to ever find out that my wife did this to me? 

It won't be pretty.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

lifeistooshort said:


> This is true, but let's not forget that transactions only work when you have a buyer
> 
> Guys accept and participate in the transaction and then get upset that it was a transaction.
> 
> Its a hard dynamic to break.


Yeah but generally speaking the ones who don't get blindsided by others that do.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

LATERILUS79 said:


> It is a lot more complicated, I promise you. When you have a spouse who hides everything because she is extremely avoidant, and the husband wasn't armed with knowledge as to how to solve the problem for many years.... well, it isnt as easy as what it appears to be. My personal dead bedroom is fixed - permanently. My wife will not allow us to dip below a weekly threshold ever again because she knows I'll leave at the drop of a hat now. She knows there is no chance I will ever allow myself to be put into that prison again.
> 
> Clearly, we have a lot to work through. I have a massive crap ton of resentment to let go. To be honest, I'm not even sure I can. Doesn't matter how much I love my wife. Doesn't matter that she came back to me.
> 
> ...


No offense dude but this sounds awful too. I would be just as upset to be married to a wife who has to sleep with me out of fear of losing me then one who isn't attracted to me. I want one who is.

Life is too short.


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> It's hard to "just leave" when you don't know what the actual situation is..... downright irresponsible in fact.
> 
> As a society we are presented with the narrative that wives are just over stressed with kids and work and domestic chores and just need more support and housekeeping assistance and that the evil male sex drive is just putting more stress and pressure on the poor little thing and is something that must be suppressed.
> 
> ...


see here is the fallacy with that. For $100, you can get a cleaning service to come in once a week and clean the entire house to be spotless.

So for one quarter the price of a decent hooker, that SHOULD get the husband laid again. The "reason for no sex", being overstressed because of housework, would be gone. But guess what, the sex life does NOT improve! I guess it just gives the wife more free time to whine.

And of course, the equivalent would happen with a husband who is not putting out....like if you suddenly could relieve all the stress from his job....you would find that was not the issue either, still no sex.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

It only takes one person to cause a sexless relationship but it takes two to keep it that way. Both have accountability. The gatekeeper isn’t 100% to blame.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

sokillme said:


> No offense dude but this sounds awful too. I would be just as upset to be married to a wife who has to sleep with me out of fear of losing me then one who isn't attracted to me. I want one who is.
> 
> Life is too short.


None taken. I will be in MC sometime this year and ask many questions that I have not been "allowed" to ask over the years. She can't avoid our issues any more. You are right, life is too short and I need to know if it is my wife I grow old with or someone else. My preference is my wife as I do love her. She has first dibs. 

The article you posted just hit me as another possibility of what could be the problem. Her fear is completely self generated. It's her own damn fault that she created a husband who finally got to a point of having nothing left to lose. I don't care what happens to my money. I don't care if I only see my kids 50% of the time. I simply do not give a F. I'd rather go through all of that then ever get shoved back into the disgusting prison of a dead bedroom. If you haven't been there, it is awful. I don't even have to be with someone. Id rather be alone with no one than be "alone" while married in my own house.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Livvie said:


> But we have men on this forum who stay in sexless marriages because "everything else about the marriage is great" and "but I love her so much."
> 
> It is horrible, yes, the attitudes of women like this, but at the end is the day, it takes 2 to remain in a crap sexless marriage and the men stay, and they should have been able to tell years ago she wasn't into him but chose to ignore it. Because they loooove her so much!


It's because, like in my situation, divorce is a huge upheaval, especially with small children, and the woman in the article *gives her husband sex*, which is obviously enough. He doesn't know the truth, does it? So all the comments here about men with no balls, etc. are totally wrong. Sh!t happens and people very often are not truthful and do the wrong thing for a variety of reason. It would be different if the husband did know about it. What's really deplorable is the lack of the woman's integrity and honesty.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

In Absentia said:


> It's because, like in my situation, divorce is a huge upheaval, especially with small children, and the woman in the article *gives her husband sex*, which is obviously enough. He doesn't know the truth, does it? So all the comments here about men with no balls, etc. are totally wrong. Sh!t happens and people very often are not truthful and do the wrong thing for a variety of reason. It would be different if the husband did know about it. What's really deplorable is the lack of the woman's integrity and honesty.


It's also often the case that these men lack the confidence to be willing to live along rather than make the choice to end the married with an unloving spouse.
For some people, receiving 10% of the love they deserve is better than their fear of not being unloved at all.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

jonty30 said:


> I can tell you the value of the words, if you can mean them, "You don't have to have sex with me. I just want to enjoy your company." will blow most women's minds because they are so used to the idea of using sex to keep a guy.


I said that to a woman once, and she said she found it very "threatening".


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

Laurentium said:


> I said that to a woman once, and she said she found it very "threatening".


Maybe it was your delivery.

A woman once told me that she was afraid that I would leave her.
I told her that she didn't have anything to worry about, because she would never leave me. 
I then gave her a reassuring laugh, "Heh heh heh".


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

jonty30 said:


> It's also often the case that these men lack the confidence to be willing to live along rather than make the choice to end the married with an unloving spouse.
> For some people, receiving 10% of the love they deserve is better than their fear of not being unloved at all.


I agree...


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

FWIW, this seems like the flip side of many women's' fear that their husband stays with them only because it's convenient, or because he'd get caned financially if he left; that he doesn't _really love_ her.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

Laurentium said:


> FWIW, this seems like the flip side of many women's' fear that their husband stays with them only because it's convenient, or because he'd get caned financially if he left; that he doesn't _really love_ her.


She fears that he doesn't really love her, but is only with her because she is useful in some way.


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## Luckylucky (Dec 11, 2020)

Laurentium said:


> FWIW, this seems like the flip side of many women's' fear that their husband stays with them only because it's convenient, or because he'd get caned financially if he left; that he doesn't _really love_ her.


That’s very sad, is this coming from women in dead bedrooms, where the husbands are rejecting them? Or women like in the article who aren’t attracted to their husbands?


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

All I read was the following:

My husband is a good guy but he is also a sucker
I used him to heal myself after I got hurt living the single life
Aren't I good for putting up with this and not cheating (at least I think they did not cheat).


----------



## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

manfromlamancha said:


> All I read was the following:
> 
> My husband is a good guy but he is also a sucker
> I used him to heal myself after I got hurt living the single life
> Aren't I good for putting up with this and not cheating (at least I think they did not cheat).


That's modern feminism for you


----------



## manwithnoname (Feb 3, 2017)

lifeistooshort said:


> This is true, but let's not forget that transactions only work when you have a buyer
> 
> *Guys accept and participate in the transaction and then get upset that it was a transaction. *
> 
> Its a hard dynamic to break.


Maybe they got upset at the breach of contract.


----------



## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

jonty30 said:


> It's also often the case that these men lack the confidence to be willing to live along rather than make the choice to end the married with an unloving spouse.
> For some people, receiving 10% of the love they deserve is better than their fear of not being unloved at all.


That’s the point. You have to get yourself to the point of having nothing left to lose - then they take notice. It sucks, but it works. Even if your partner doesn’t take notice, you are still in good shape because you’d prefer being alone over being with someone that doesn’t really love you anyway. So you leave and get yourself better in that instance.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Talker67 said:


> see here is the fallacy with that. For $100, you can get a cleaning service to come in once a week and clean the entire house to be spotless.
> 
> So for one quarter the price of a decent hooker, that SHOULD get the husband laid again. The "reason for no sex", being overstressed because of housework, would be gone. But guess what, the sex life does NOT improve! I guess it just gives the wife more free time to whine.
> 
> And of course, the equivalent would happen with a husband who is not putting out....like if you suddenly could relieve all the stress from his job....you would find that was not the issue either, still no sex.


This is so true. 

They would just be out picking blades of grass out of the cracks in the sidewalk while the hired housekeeper was in the house cleaning.


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

ccpowerslave said:


> I mean the other thing is the guy should literally F the S out of her and rock her world but he probably can’t. He’s probably not even paying attention and seeing that she’s not into it at all.
> 
> Sad…


or he's so literally out of stamina for not getting any that he wouldn't last in the sack and then he would be laughed at by her, even though she's the one responsible


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Since I saw all the activity I went back and scrolled down to the comments. Gah…

“I knew before we were even married I wasn’t attracted to him. Now that I have a crush on my coworker now I know how much I really desire to be intimate with other men.”

Repulsive…. You read stuff like that and feel sorry for the poor sucker.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

ccpowerslave said:


> Since I saw all the activity I went back and scrolled down to the comments. Gah…
> 
> “I knew before we were even married I wasn’t attracted to him. Now that I have a crush on my coworker now I know how much I really desire to be intimate with other men.”
> 
> Repulsive…. You read stuff like that and feel sorry for the poor sucker.


Unfortunately this sucker is the type of male being raised nowadays


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

Numb26 said:


> Unfortunately this sucker is the type of male being raised nowadays


Yes and no.

this woman is clearly doing a good job hiding this from him. They have multiple children together. There are clearly times in their history where there was a good amount of sex. Probably other periods of dead bedroom.

my guess? The guy may feel like something is off but had no idea what it is. I’d say there is a good chance if this woman admitted to him that she isn’t attracted to him, he would act on it and leave to find someone that is.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

I dunno I’d like to think you could tell if someone was just going through the motions but maybe you can’t.


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## BeyondRepair007 (Nov 4, 2021)

ccpowerslave said:


> I dunno I’d like to think you could tell if someone was just going through the motions but maybe you can’t.


We see a lot of stories where they guy had no clue his W was the town bicycle.
Lordy I hope I see everything I should, but not make stuff up in my head.
That's why TAM is great for men who had no Daddy guidance.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

In Absentia said:


> It's because, like in my situation, divorce is a huge upheaval, especially with small children, and the woman in the article *gives her husband sex*, which is obviously enough. He doesn't know the truth, does it? So all the comments here about men with no balls, etc. are totally wrong. Sh!t happens and people very often are not truthful and do the wrong thing for a variety of reason. It would be different if the husband did know about it. What's really deplorable is the lack of the woman's integrity and honesty.


I'm not trying to be mean here, but a man should be able to trell the difference between a woman who wants him sexually and a woman who is only having sex to keep a relationship.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

Livvie said:


> I'm not trying to be mean here, but a man should be able to trell the difference between a woman who wants him sexually and a woman who is only having sex to keep a relationship.


Some men can't or don't want too


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## dadstartingover (Oct 23, 2015)

The ol' Lover vs. Provider... a concept that eludes way too many men. Hence why I wrote the book: *The Dead Bedroom Fix.*


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

ccpowerslave said:


> I dunno I’d like to think you could tell if someone was just going through the motions but maybe you can’t.


Brother, I would like to say the same thing - but my wife pulled the wool over my eyes for so many years that I simply do not trust my intuition. I have difficulty trusting anything my wife says after this past year of some revelations, and I know a lot more will be coming out this year.

so as much as it pains me to say it, I do think my wife could fool me into believing whatever she wanted. It would be far more difficult for her to do that now - but only because I am extremely vigilant and am very distrusting of her these days. It’s going to take a very long time for me to get back to the point of just trusting her outright on anything she says.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

Livvie said:


> I'm not trying to be mean here, but a man should be able to trell the difference between a woman who wants him sexually and a woman who is only having sex to keep a relationship.


I dont think you are being mean at all.

maybe men should be able to tell the difference, but I can’t honestly say that I would be able to. For example, when I was still stuck in my dead Bedroom, my wife told me that it is normal and that none of her friends have sex with their husbands either. That seemed crazy to me, but I believed her. She’s my wife. I should just trust what she says.

I dont these days. Even though my dead bedroom is “fixed”, she still swears on her life that her friends tell her this. I do not have a clue if she is lying or not.

so yeah. It’s embarrassing as all hell, but I can’t tell the difference between my wife lying or telling the truth - or even worse, she may play denial games in her head that she makes up stuff in her head that she believes to be true even when it isn’t.


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## dadstartingover (Oct 23, 2015)

Livvie said:


> I'm not trying to be mean here, but a man should be able to tell the difference between a woman who wants him sexually and a woman who is only having sex to keep a relationship.


You would think so! But no... Many men are completely flabbergasted when they discover the truth about their wife's lack of attraction (they find a diary, overheard a conversation, snoop on their wife's phone). Then they divorce, work on themselves, improve tremendously, and they all say the same thing: "Wow. Obviously, my wife didn't want me. I wouldn't have wanted me either. I was a mess." 

When you're inside the jar, it's impossible to read the label.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

dadstartingover said:


> You would think so! But no... Many men are completely flabbergasted when they discover the truth about their wife's lack of attraction (they find a diary, overheard a conversation, snoop on their wife's phone). Then they divorce, work on themselves, improve tremendously, and they all say the same thing: "Wow. Obviously, my wife didn't want me. I wouldn't have wanted me either. I was a mess."
> 
> When you're inside the jar, it's impossible to read the label.


Sounds like you are blaming the man for the wife cheating. That is absolute BS. Stop blaming the victim


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## dadstartingover (Oct 23, 2015)

Numb26 said:


> Sounds like you are blaming the man for the wife cheating. That is absolute BS. Stop blaming the victim


The concept of cheating was never mentioned above. Lack of attraction/sex was.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Talker67 said:


> So for one quarter the price of a decent hooker


$400 for a hooker? No way I'm paying that...


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Livvie said:


> I'm not trying to be mean here, but a man should be able to trell the difference between a woman who wants him sexually and a woman who is only having sex to keep a relationship.


I couldn't tell the difference. I think it boils down on the type of sex you are having. If there is a lot of involvement and participation, it's impossible to tell. But relationships are very complex and they are not black and white.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

LATERILUS79 said:


> For example, when I was still stuck in my dead Bedroom, my wife told me that it is normal and that none of her friends have sex with their husbands either. That seemed crazy to me, but I believed her. She’s my wife. I should just trust what she says.


My wife told me the same... none of her colleagues of her age were having sex with their husbands. Sexless marriages are a lot more common than people think. I did believe her, but I refused to have a sexless marriage. 

I'm replying to this, although I think Laterilus79 has blocked me...


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## ThatDarnGuy! (Jan 11, 2022)

I wouldn't let any of that nonsense in that link sway your thoughts on the ladies. 

After reading her nonsense, I feel like she is just a miserable and unhappy person who is going to find something wrong with any relationship. If she found someone who she is physically attracted to, then she wont like the way he smiles, his family, his shoe size, blah blah blah blah blah 

This really just sounded like a miserable writer who needs to break her addiction to box wine, grow up, and work on finding some happiness in life.

I love how she mentions multiple times that she moderates comments..... In other words, validate me and agree or I will delete you 🤣


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

LATERILUS79 said:


> I dont think you are being mean at all.
> 
> maybe men should be able to tell the difference, but I can’t honestly say that I would be able to. For example, when I was still stuck in my dead Bedroom, my wife told me that it is normal and that none of her friends have sex with their husbands either. That seemed crazy to me, but I believed her. She’s my wife. I should just trust what she says.
> 
> ...


I could never trust my XW ever again and I didn't give her a second chance


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Sometimes a woman’s partner has no idea how she really feels about sex with him. That can be especially true after “the talk”. She doesn’t want a divorce so she seriously ups her game. Is it real — or not? She’s the only one who knows the true answer.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

The article probably describes my first wife and increasingly sexless marriage very well. It took awhile, but when I figured that out, I divorced her. I then used what I learned about mutual sexual desire (AND compatibility, since it is always critical for a lasting relationship) to _very_ carefully choose my next relationships. I think that's why for the past 22 years I've had a very satisfying sexual relationship. 

And she did experience abuse when young, so that isn't necessarily an excuse or impediment to having a great sexual relationship. Even in the article comments, many of the women say they encountered someone who appeals to them sexually - it's just not their husband (he just made them feel safe and met their other needs, just not sex). There is no excuse, just as with cheating. Obviously, though, there are reasons for both, and it seems to boil down to selfishness.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

dadstartingover said:


> You would think so! But no... Many men are completely flabbergasted when they discover the truth about their wife's lack of attraction (they find a diary, overheard a conversation, snoop on their wife's phone). Then they divorce, work on themselves, improve tremendously, and they all say the same thing: "Wow. Obviously, my wife didn't want me. I wouldn't have wanted me either. I was a mess."
> 
> When you're inside the jar, it's impossible to read the label.


I see where Numb26 is coming from. It does sound like you are blaming the guy - but I get why you are. For some men (maybe most?) that you come across, this would be the case. I get it.

I actually don’t fall into that category.

I am reasonably fit and I am always active and workout daily.

I have a good job. I’ve done well for myself.

I’m a good father.

I’m loyal to my core. People that I care about know that I care about them and they know that they can count on me if needed.

I am told by multiple women that I am attractive. I’m told By women that other women hit on me even though I don’t ever notice (I’m pretty damn dense).

I can promise you that I wouldn’t need to “improve” myself if I were to leave my wife and go out on my own - other than my daily stuff that I do right now (maybe with the extra time I could improve at a faster rate, who knows?)



my point being is that your description doesn’t fit all men. The issues my wife had with me in the past (or still does) goes deeper than what You describe. I hope to uncover more truth this year to figure out what in the hell has been going on over our 20 year relationship.

also, it is easier for a woman to pull the wool over a man’s eyes when he has limited experience prior to her.

regardless, I think what you do for men is still helpful. I’ve said in other threads here that this place is like a whole other world I didn’t know about. Arming more people with knowledge helps them make better decisions. I’m pretty much the same man I’ve always been. I’m happy with myself. I am confident in myself. I am a good, traditional man and I know I am desirable by women’s standards - but when all you know is one woman and you believe whatever she says because she is your wife and you want to trust your spouse….. well, a smart confident man can still be gaslit.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

Livvie said:


> I'm not trying to be mean here, but a man should be able to trell the difference between a woman who wants him sexually and a woman who is only having sex to keep a relationship.



Id like to think I would know, it's never happened to me, but that's mostly( I think) because I have historically not gone after women, but taking the ones that were actively interested...While that doesn't guarantee anything, and actually has a limiting effect on your available pool, it does tend to rule out the one's that aren't really interested, but "you caught them at the right time".. or you "finally wore them down" kind of thing a lot of guys get themselves into...In those circumstances it can certainly turn into what you are talking about..

But yeah, hearing the stories over the years in my own circles, there has been a fair amount of that stuff... Its a classic bait and switch...I've never heard the term responsive desire until I came around here, but I would imagine if a woman never initiated, then its a good bet (I would think), that she isn't interested in sex with a guy....


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## dadstartingover (Oct 23, 2015)

LATERILUS79 said:


> I see where Numb26 is coming from. It does sound like you are blaming the guy - but I get why you are. For some men (maybe most?) that you come across, this would be the case. I get it.
> 
> I actually don’t fall into that category.
> 
> ...


Of course... "many men" not "all men". Are you saying you have had a dead bedroom (or close to one) for 20 years?


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Mr. Nail said:


> Thanks for the kick in the Balls Liv, Really made my day!


You take everything so personally. Liv wasn't talking about you (I don't think). Besides, you have sex with your wife and your wife is quite accommodating of your needs.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

dadstartingover said:


> Of course... "many men" not "all men". Are you saying you have had a dead bedroom (or close to one) for 20 years?


No. And some of the details I’m not willing To really talk about in the public area. It was a long time though.

first few years were great. I don’t think it was a matter of her not being attracted to me as I am more like hamadryad. My wife and I both liked each other and she definitely was actively coming after me. But who knows? I sure as hell don’t. My wife also has some past trauma prior to dating me that I don’t feel like talking about here that I know has caused us issues over the years.

the main factor that eventually brought me to TAM was when she initiated hysterical bonding back in December of 2020. I was actually planning on leaving her. I had enough. I didn’t care what she told me anymore. I didn’t believe her. I thought there was a better life out there and I was tired. I was detaching from her. Her complete 180 was a massive shock to my system and I had no idea what in the hell was going on. She has an avoidant personality so communication is extremely difficult she. It comes to serious discussions. I am very confrontational so it is difficult for us to speak to say the least.

I was searching for answers. I was spinning in circles. Why this? Why now? Thats how I found this place.

Personally? I think my wife went “uh-oh. I’m about to lose him. He has one foot out the door and the second one is lifting off the ground. This is going to take something Seriously drastic to keep him.” So she starts to hysterically bond with me which sent my brain into a tailspin.

I am still seeking answers. I hope I can get them in MC this year but there is a waiting period. I’ve loved this woman for a long time and I don’t want to give up on her without giving it my best shot - but that has a finite time table. We need to get some serious things discussed this year because I’m not waiting forever. In addition, she is well aware that I have serious boundaries now that can never be crossed again (TAM has been a huge help of realizing that things in my marriage were NOT normal). She knows that sex can never drop off again. She already has used every last ounce of my leniency. Clearly, I have serious resentment for the years of what I consider to be gas lighting.

does she stay with me out of fear and not cross my boundaries because of it? Maybe? Probably? I don’t know. What Is important to me is to get as much information as I can from her to see if she can actually be 100% honest with me about what makes her make the decisions she has made over these years. I want her cards on the table just like mine are. If she can do that, then we can move towards healing our marriage (which is my preference). If not, I know that I will be ok on my own. It’ll be tragic that we couldn’t save it, but I got myself to a point of nothing left to lose. I won’t go back to dead bedroom prison. I know that much for sure.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

One thing I found and still find interesting is how much resentment my wife has. She is still mad, even now. Below the surface she has that resentment and whatever nice times we have it is always there.

I don’t have that at all.

I think she will always have it. She’s wired to think of the past and I only care about today and maybe next week.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

LATERILUS79 said:


> maybe men should be able to tell the difference, but I can’t honestly say that I would be able to. For example, when I was still stuck in my dead Bedroom, my wife told me that it is normal and that *none of her friends have sex with their husbands either. *That seemed crazy to me, but I believed her. She’s my wife. I should just trust what she says.
> 
> I dont these days. Even though my dead bedroom is “fixed”, *she still swears on her life that her friends tell her this. *I do not have a clue if she is lying or not.


If you learn nothing else from TAM, learn this: it doesn't matter if every woman on the face of the earth stopped having sex with their husband - you are not married to them! What is 'normal' in other marriages has no bearing on yours. If your wife wants to conduct her life according to what her friends may or may not tell her, that is her prerogative - it has nothing to do with you. The next time she throws her so-called friends in your face, simply tell her that you're glad you aren't married to them and that you feel sorry for their husbands. You, personally, want a wife who honors her marriage vows.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

ccpowerslave said:


> One thing I found and still find interesting is how much resentment my wife has. She is still mad, even now. Below the surface she has that resentment and whatever nice times we have it is always there.
> 
> I don’t have that at all.
> 
> I think she will always have it. She’s wired to think of the past and I only care about today and maybe next week.


She must be Italian or Jewish....lol


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

People lie a lot in relationships, don't communicate and are not honest, for whatever reason.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Many men (in those sexless marriages) believe, all or most, marriages and wives are this way.

Many saw this behavior in their mothers.

It is a standing joke amongst men, about these entitled wives.

Therefore, why divorce and enter into another similar relationship?

Why take a chance?

Change is difficult, and it seems, only the brave or the foolish, consistently follow their heart.




_King Brian-_

I would not allow _Lilith_ to post on this subject; my sweet friend hyperventilates.
She was a good wife.

I, so worry about her.

Her husband_ Butch_ was a violent abuser.
As luck saw to it,* Red Dog*_,_ piecemeal, transferred him from _Hades _(to Hell).


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## dadstartingover (Oct 23, 2015)

LATERILUS79 said:


> No. And some of the details I’m not willing To really talk about in the public area. It was a long time though.
> 
> first few years were great. I don’t think it was a matter of her not being attracted to me as I am more like hamadryad. My wife and I both liked each other and she definitely was actively coming after me. But who knows? I sure as hell don’t. My wife also has some past trauma prior to dating me that I don’t feel like talking about here that I know has caused us issues over the years.
> 
> ...


I see. I'm always here if you'd like to chat with a guy who has been there and done that. Your story, as you well know, is a VERY VERY common one. *My bio on our coaching page.* We also offer couples coaching for those that are members of the *DSO Fraternity group* (coaching is overall cheaper for members, too). Best of luck to you!!


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Some men and women are loyal to a fault, some to a dream.
A dream that is a living nightmare.

Masochists are real.
Some are unacknowledged Saints.


_Nemesis-_


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

ccpowerslave said:


> One thing I found and still find interesting is how much resentment my wife has. She is still mad, even now. Below the surface she has that resentment and whatever nice times we have it is always there.
> 
> I don’t have that at all.
> 
> I think she will always have it. She’s wired to think of the past and I only care about today and maybe next week.


For her:

It is the past that never really left.
Memories that never pass, rather, it is that repast.

The taste, the distaste, the regurgitating of old bile.

Call it painful reminiscing.
The thoughts are reborn..... everyday the painful memories resurface.

Those dominated by 'fixed' signs cannot square away, get away from the past.

This looking at, rubbing vigorously those old scars.
Scars, that stiff skin never flexes.

Old grudges are eaten of.... often.
A bad habit, a sad habit.

I too endure this past constantly being visited upon me.



_[?}-_


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

Luckylucky said:


> That’s very sad, is this coming from women in dead bedrooms, where the husbands are rejecting them? Or women like in the article who aren’t attracted to their husbands?


Neither of those specifically. Just a certain proportion of women in troubled relationships.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

manwithnoname said:


> Maybe they got upset at the breach of contract.


If the contract was breached he has every right to be upset.

As long as he understands what the contract requires 😀


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

Numb26 said:


> I could never trust my XW ever again and I didn't give her a second chance


Which is exactly why you are one of the dudes on the up and up and not one left in dust hanging his head down shackled to his “forgiven wife”. You actually get it… it was who you were naturally. That’s why you aren’t stuck in chit.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

In Absentia said:


> $400 for a hooker? No way I'm paying that...


If she is charging that I would at least compliment her confidence.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

.


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## red oak (Oct 26, 2018)

Deep subject. 
The sad thing Society has been programmed this is a natural difference between the sexes. 
I’ll say men and women were sold a bill of goods by Society. 
Men and women once enjoyed sex just for the sake of pleasure it provided.
Fact so many avoid it shows the success of the psychological neutering of society.
Anyone interested in cliff note of the situation from the woman’s side should read the now politically incorrect “The Power of Sexual Surrender” by Marie N. Robinson. She does a good job of bringing drawing from many areas that led to this issue.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

ccpowerslave said:


> One thing I found and still find interesting is how much resentment my wife has. She is still mad, even now. Below the surface she has that resentment and whatever nice times we have it is always there.
> 
> I don’t have that at all.
> 
> I think she will always have it. She’s wired to think of the past and I only care about today and maybe next week.


Some people are wired to hold grudges more then others. I admit to being one of the grudges holders.....but I can let things go if I get a real resolution. It's when I can't that I tend to hold on.

Is your wife like this? Is her ability to let things go perhaps tied to the perceived resolution?


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

ccpowerslave said:


> One thing I found and still find interesting is how much resentment my wife has. She is still mad, even now. Below the surface she has that resentment and whatever nice times we have it is always there.
> 
> I don’t have that at all.
> 
> I think she will always have it. She’s wired to think of the past and I only care about today and maybe next week.


A death grip on resentment is a common trait in many who withhold.

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

In Absentia said:


> People lie a lot in relationships, don't communicate and are not honest, for whatever reason.


Lies they tell their partner sometimes stem from the lies/rationalizations they tell themselves. The price of being honest with their partner is too high, if it would force them to see themselves truthfully.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

sokillme said:


> I think part of this is true, and it's probably why she isn't so into him. In those cases i don't feel bad. But the comments where the women go into it knowing they are not attracted and marry them anyway. What a terribly cruel thing to do to someone.


Actually she said she never was into him sexually. He loves her like that and she loves him for being the rock that allowed her to heal.

I have sympathy. My ex ditched a bad home life. A good friend admitted due to bad childhood experiences she doesn't consider sex to be a loving / bonding activity.

So yeah it's sad and this resonates. Still no excuse to make someone a co-victim, though.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

lifeistooshort said:


> Some people are wired to hold grudges more then others. I admit to being one of the grudges holders.....but I can let things go if I get a real resolution. It's when I can't that I tend to hold on.
> 
> Is your wife like this? Is her ability to let things go perhaps tied to the perceived resolution?


I don’t think so. The thing she is pissed about is something I have been improving on for years, at least 4 years and in the last two I’d say I’m pretty reformed.

She’s just pissed and she’s never going to get over it.

I think part of it is she’s mad at herself. Because the behavior she hates that I used to exhibit she now does it TO HERSELF. Sometimes she will think about it and realize this as I am not dumb enough to point it out to her and then she gets really mad at herself but she’s good at redirecting it to me.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

Blondilocks said:


> If you learn nothing else from TAM, learn this: it doesn't matter if every woman on the face of the earth stopped having sex with their husband - you are not married to them! What is 'normal' in other marriages has no bearing on yours. If your wife wants to conduct her life according to what her friends may or may not tell her, that is her prerogative - it has nothing to do with you. The next time she throws her so-called friends in your face, simply tell her that you're glad you aren't married to them and that you feel sorry for their husbands. You, personally, want a wife who honors her marriage vows.


Blondi, I appreciate this. Thank you.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

lifeistooshort said:


> Some people are wired to hold grudges more then others. I admit to being one of the grudges holders.....but I can let things go if I get a real resolution. It's when I can't that I tend to hold on.
> 
> Is your wife like this? Is her ability to let things go perhaps tied to the perceived resolution?


@lifeistooshort, I am one as well. I hate it. Some days my resentment overpowers me. Its definitely one of my traits that I prefer wasn't there. 

However, I am like you. I can let go of the past if I see a real resolution. There is no way for my wife to repay me for the previous treatment I received. It's an impossible venture. IF she is willing to put in serious effort to heal her old trauma and go with me to MC so that we can put all of our cards on the table and be 100% honest? I know that resentment will go away. It's the *effort*. That is what I require to heal. 

As far as I know, my wife has never done a deal breaker like infidelity and she knows that a dead bedroom cannot return to our marriage (as that is a deal breaker too), so as far as I am concerned, I'm game for offering a second chance if she wants to move forward and heal with me. 



farsidejunky said:


> A death grip on resentment is a common trait in many who withhold.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


Interesting. I've never looked at it that way. I'm definitely not someone who withholds, but I do have a deathgrip on resentment sometimes.


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## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

LATERILUS79 said:


> @lifeistooshort, I am one as well. I hate it. Some days my resentment overpowers me. Its definitely one of my traits that I prefer wasn't there.
> 
> However, I am like you. I can let go of the past if I see a real resolution. There is no way for my wife to repay me for the previous treatment I received. It's an impossible venture. IF she is willing to put in serious effort to heal her old trauma and go with me to MC so that we can put all of our cards on the table and be 100% honest? I know that resentment will go away. It's the *effort*. That is what I require to heal.
> 
> ...


You might now withhold sexually, but do you withhold in other ways? Emotionally, physically, socially?


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

ThatDarnGuy! said:


> I love how she mentions multiple times that she moderates comments..... In other words, validate me and agree or I will delete you


Yeah, that was made very clear. So the fact that there is no dissent in the comments doesn't mean much.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

Laurentium said:


> Yeah, that was made very clear. So the fact that there is no dissent in the comments doesn't mean much.


That's all social media now


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

leftfield said:


> You might now withhold sexually, but do you withhold in other ways? Emotionally, physically, socially?


Fair question. I consider myself very introspective, but I have to be fair to my wife. People here only know my side of things. She would obviously see me in a very different light than what I see myself. 

Emotionally? No. I don't think so. I am more open with my wife than she is with me. I am the one that has to schedule serious marriage talks or any sort of talk above day to day mundane things. If I don't, she will never speak with me about anything remotely serious.

Physically? I don't know. Are you talking about sex or just physical touches? In both of those cases, I am FAR more giving. I want sex all the time. I actually exercise hard to constantly increase my strength and stamina to be good at it with her. This is something she has complimented me on multiple times in the past. Same thing goes for physical touching to just show affection. A hug and kiss in the morning before I head out to work. Holding her and telling her that I love her and letting her know that she is beautiful. Holding her and rubbing her back as she falls asleep at night. You name it. I do it. 

Socially? Not sure what this would mean. Please help with examples if you don't mind. My wife and I are both introverts. We both have our own small group of friends, but I will say she is more socially active than I am. I've been making efforts this past year to be more social with the local parents in our neighborhood when all of our kids are outside playing with each other. 
Would that be considered withholding even though I'm painfully introverted? Maybe. I don't think I can properly judge myself on that. Fact of the matter is I am far from perfect. I'm always looking to improve myself, but it certainly would help if my wife wasn't so closed off and would tell me what she would like out of me.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

I was withholding one thing she wanted from me which I viewed as very annoying. She wanted large chunks of time from me (weekends, weeks) to travel and at the time I was just not available for time usage I viewed as frivolous especially for large chunks of time. I had responsibilities to large groups of employees.

When I did make myself available I was usually a sour puss about it.

Interestingly now that she has a job kind of like my old one she is doing the exact same thing I did. We really are very similar in a lot of ways which is generally how we have made it this far.

These days I just blow off work.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

I wish I could like this twice. 



PieceOfSky said:


> Lies they tell their partner are sometimes stem from the lies/rationalizations they tell themselves. The price of being honest with their partner is too high, if it would force them to see themselves truthfully.


----------



## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

PieceOfSky said:


> Lies they tell their partner are sometimes stem from the lies/rationalizations they tell themselves. The price of being honest with their partner is too high, if it would force them to see themselves truthfully.


absolutely.


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## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Fair question. I consider myself very introspective, but I have to be fair to my wife. People here only know my side of things. She would obviously see me in a very different light than what I see myself.
> 
> Emotionally? No. I don't think so. I am more open with my wife than she is with me. I am the one that has to schedule serious marriage talks or any sort of talk above day to day mundane things. If I don't, she will never speak with me about anything remotely serious.
> 
> ...


I didn't have any particular idea in mind. I was trying to get you to think and examine yourself. I know for myself that trust is what I'm most likely to withhold. I just wanted you to look inside and see if there was something you might be withholding.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

leftfield said:


> I didn't have any particular idea in mind. I was trying to get you to think and examine yourself. I know for myself that trust is what I'm most likely to withhold. I just wanted you to look inside and see if there was something you might be withholding.


well, that is a good example. I started to withhold trust last year as my wife and I started to work through our problems and some really old lies of hers popped up. This has greatly reduced my trust in her. So from that regard, I would say I'm withholding trust - but that isn't my default state. I used to trust every last thing she said to me.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Mr. Nail said:


> Just fire and forget. I have no valid opinion.
> 
> This is the real reason dead men stay.
> Because of the overwhelming evidence of feminine cruelty.
> Hopelessness.


It may appear as cruelty and certainly feels that way to her husband.

To her, she is managing her family.
The husband is just another problem child_.

Husbands needs to be trained._


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

LATERILUS79 said:


> well, that is a good example. I started to withhold trust last year as my wife and I started to work through our problems and some really old lies of hers popped up. This has greatly reduced my trust in her. So from that regard, I would say I'm withholding trust - but that isn't my default state. I used to trust every last thing she said to me.


Those lies are her armor.


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

In Absentia said:


> $400 for a hooker? No way I'm paying that...


you CAN find cheaper. 
but somethings you should probably not go bottom shelf on....


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Talker67 said:


> you CAN find cheaper.
> but somethings you should probably not go bottom shelf on....


Ok, maybe $300 😅


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

Talker67 said:


> you CAN find cheaper.
> but somethings you should probably not go bottom shelf on....


Only if you want to be Bob Sageted.


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

i looked it up. maybe a tad under 400












Site Suspended - This site has stepped out for a bit



Scotland looks like the deal at $48


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

ccpowerslave said:


> Since I saw all the activity I went back and scrolled down to the comments. Gah…
> 
> “I knew before we were even married I wasn’t attracted to him. Now that I have a crush on my coworker now I know how much I really desire to be intimate with other men.”
> 
> Repulsive…. You read stuff like that and feel sorry for the poor sucker.


Yep one of the ones that bothered me the most, no push back is even more disturbing.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Numb26 said:


> Sounds like you are blaming the man for the wife cheating. That is absolute BS. Stop blaming the victim


No one said cheating though, the blog post isn't about that.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Yes, totally projecting here, but from what I've learned...

I'm guessing many of these "marriages" were an escape from shame. Things they regret doing in the past, but at the time, they most certainly weren't in a regretful state of mind. But in prior relationships they had a lot of excitement pushing past boundaries... the combination of angst and excitement makes for a thrilling experience. Something 100% lacking when you marry someone to get away from being irresponsible or whatever. 

But those memories stay with you. And so, not that far on, it's like, what's missing???!!! Why don't I care about sex with my husband anymore? Nah. The question isn't even asked. From her perspective, until she gets excited about what she's missing, when she encounters something that "isn't allowed" (beyond boundaries, like her way-back days), she's perfectly content and if anyone asks, she thinks she's in a good, maybe even great, marriage. What her husband thinks doesn't matter.

People go into marriage with an assumption of trustworthiness, and that's fine, if both are trustworthy. If one is less so than the other, then they (the less trusthworthy person) is exchanging a counterfeit version of him or herself to the other. The most important things we need to know about our potential spouse is whatever it is that they're most scared about you finding out. All these guys were probably being too nice, thinking that her past is irrelevant to who she is today. 

So yes, I truly do think a lot of these non-sexual (with their husband) marriages could have been figured out ahead of time, and avoided. And it's not just guys avoiding women who have such potential but also the other way around. Guys can carry shame as well, although, do to double standards, it's not nearly as likely.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

ccpowerslave said:


> One thing I found and still find interesting is how much resentment my wife has. She is still mad, even now. Below the surface she has that resentment and whatever nice times we have it is always there.
> 
> I don’t have that at all.
> 
> I think she will always have it. She’s wired to think of the past and I only care about today and maybe next week.


I have to ask... resentment over what? Making your needs a priority? Calling her out over the bait-and-switch? 

Or were there nasty arguments / confrontations? 

If the former I'd issue an ultimatum. It's bad enough to lure in a guy you don't desire. But to double down and make it your fault for standing up for yourself shows she doesn't care and won't change.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

ccpowerslave said:


> One thing I found and still find interesting is how much resentment my wife has. She is still mad, even now. Below the surface she has that resentment and whatever nice times we have it is always there.
> 
> I don’t have that at all.
> 
> I think she will always have it. She’s wired to think of the past and I only care about today and maybe next week.


What is it she resents, when did it start, and when did she decide it was ok to be vocal about it (cop to it)?


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Casual Observer said:


> What is it she resents, when did it start, and when did she decide it was ok to be vocal about it (cop to it)?


She is pissed off that I didn’t take the (large) amount of time she required to do things she wanted to do when I was working 7d/week for years at a time. 

Eventually I told her to just go, because I’m not going on a two week backpacking trip hiking around in the dirt with a bunch of people I don’t know when I’m supposed to be working.

I’d then get mad when she’s gone for 2-3 weeks off doing stuff while I was taking care of everything even though I told her to do this.

She’d then notice I was perturbed which would cause her to get mad.

It’s the cycle of being mad!

Anyway a few years back I started just saying yes and doing whatever time consuming things she had in mind and would blow off work. Now she does the same thing back to me, she works pretty much every time we go on a trip, even an overnight one.

I would be mad, but I can’t be mad because I am king of doing that.

She would tell me about it for years and I largely ignored her complaints because well I was working and stuff. I felt what she was asking was unreasonable.

In hindsight, it wasn’t.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Numb26 said:


> The Western male has been feminized, emasculated and beaten down


So the little whiny guy everyone is making fun of isn't right?😋


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

LATERILUS79 said:


> I dont think you are being mean at all.
> 
> maybe men should be able to tell the difference, but I can’t honestly say that I would be able to. For example, when I was still stuck in my dead Bedroom, my wife told me that it is normal and that none of her friends have sex with their husbands either. That seemed crazy to me, but I believed her. She’s my wife. I should just trust what she says.
> 
> ...


If they aren't having sex with their husbands, who are they having sex with?😋


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Would it be bad if you just didn't care if your wife was very sexually attracted to you but loved you and took care of business?

I know Mrs. C is attracted to me sexually but I don't think I'd care if she wasn't but still took care of business.

I guess I respect choices and actions more than feelings?


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

ConanHub said:


> Would it be bad if you just didn't care if your wife was very sexually attracted to you but loved you and took care of business?
> 
> I know Mrs. C is attracted to me sexually but I don't think I'd care if she wasn't but still took care of business.
> 
> I guess I respect choices and actions more than feelings?


Maybe.

I mean there can be a certain percentage of “going through the motions” but if there is really nothing there I’d say it’s maybe borderline disgusting?

Like if your partner is sitting there thinking “this is gross, I hope they finish”. Well, I’d rather be alone and take another shot at it.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

ccpowerslave said:


> Maybe.
> 
> I mean there can be a certain percentage of “going through the motions” but if there is really nothing there I’d say it’s maybe borderline disgusting?
> 
> Like if your partner is sitting there thinking “this is gross, I hope they finish”. Well, I’d rather be alone and take another shot at it.


I'm in agreement with that take. I can't see being repulsed and still marrying someone.

I guess I'm more referring to nothing being wrong with someone physically but just not having the really hot spark of sexual attraction but really being into them.

I guess I just don't really care if my wife is really sexually attracted to me, but not repulsed, but is really into me otherwise and takes care of business.

I'm cutting a fine line here and I'm not referencing some of the vile posts from some of the posters from the original post.

They are clearly delusional and disrespectful. Disrespect is a non starter for this barbarian.


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## Tatsuhiko (Jun 21, 2016)

I have an uncle who was gay. He even had gay relationships as a young man that my father (his brother) knew about. But when it came time to marry, he found a woman and married her. Had children and grandchildren. 40 years later he decides it's time.to come out of the closet and leave his wife.

I find it despicable thay he used my aunt as a cover, or as some kind of stability. The woman who wrote this trash is no different. She intentionally misled someone, used someone, for her own gain. Her husband could have met a woman who really loved and respected him. But no, he got fooled by this trashy woman who is being celebrated in the comments.


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## Luckylucky (Dec 11, 2020)

I just read the comments, and what I find absolutely mind blowing, is how many women mentioned other men!! Almost all of them had met someone new online, at work etc. 

I personally know a few women, and one man, who could have written that post. Only one of them had an abusive background. I happen to know them since we were all teens, and many of us are middle-aged now. 

All of them have said they weren’t attracted to the spouses about 6 months in, they don’t like sex etc (they all married UP in the looks and class department! Which shocks me too!) As the years went by, they all share one thing in common - they flirt in public, a few of them have had affairs, and confided to me how they wanted a divorce etc. 

Most horrifying… is that all of these people who weren’t attracted kept having children, creating debts or ways to keep the other tied down, and found ways to improve their careers. Three of these men had successful careers, and ended up eventually losing jobs and becoming stay at home dads! The male is the worst of the lot - his wife is amazing. She too was from a wealthy family, hasn’t worked in decades, and he takes her out sometimes only to flirt with other women right in front of her. 

I knew the partners pre-marriage too, so it boggles the mind how they ended up with such great partners. 

One woman in particular, who has no shame in telling us how she hates sex, wants a divorce etc, panics and goes to the doctor (she tells her husband it hurts) every time her husband starts going to the gym. She goes through this cycle, ‘I realise I have a problem, it probably clamps up because I’m not attracted to him, the doctor sent me for tests’. But when we see her next, we ask if she has followed up, seen a psychologist and she waves her hand and gets defensive and changes the subject. 🙄 She is also now talking about a 3rd child!!! And needing a bigger house!! 

It’s the wallet, isn’t it?? People are toys… because I notice these people are completely possessive too, and while they’re busy flirting and ignoring their spouses, the rage on their face is palpable when someone tries to even have basic chit-chat with these poor husbands and that poor wife. Because you feel so awful for them 🤷🏻‍♀️

In the case of the male, I think it’s the wallet too. We can all see he can’t stand her, but he won’t let her leave either. He was once spoken to about how he treats her and got very threatening, ‘she won’t get a cent, all of this is MINE!’. 

Ah geez it’s sad what people do to people. 😔


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## Luckylucky (Dec 11, 2020)

sokillme said:


> No offense dude but this sounds awful too. I would be just as upset to be married to a wife who has to sleep with me out of fear of losing me then one who isn't attracted to me. I want one who is.
> 
> Life is too short.


It’s not necessarily a bad thing to fear losing your spouse?? To some degree, if we all felt this, it would probably make us better partners. If you’re into your wife or your husband, you will no doubt treat them better, really enjoy having sex with them, attend to their needs and pull your weight in life to work through this tough life together. I worry too many people DON’T fear losing a good man or woman and take tomorrow for granted.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Luckylucky said:


> It’s not necessarily a bad thing to fear losing your spouse?? To some degree, if we all felt this, it would probably make us better partners. If you’re into your wife or your husband, you will no doubt treat them better, really enjoy having sex with them, attend to their needs and pull your weight in life to work through this tough life together. I worry too many people DON’T fear losing a good man or woman and take tomorrow for granted.


Pretty much agree with this one.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Luckylucky said:


> It’s not necessarily a bad thing to fear losing your spouse?? To some degree, if we all felt this, it would probably make us better partners. If you’re into your wife or your husband, you will no doubt treat them better, really enjoy having sex with them, attend to their needs and pull your weight in life to work through this tough life together. I worry too many people DON’T fear losing a good man or woman and take tomorrow for granted.


I agree when your spouse is worthy of not losing.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

ConanHub said:


> So the little whiny guy everyone is making fun of isn't right?😋


I think everyone in this video is worth making fun of, the whiny guy and the guys posting the videos of their gains.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

ConanHub said:


> Would it be bad if you just didn't care if your wife was very sexually attracted to you but loved you and took care of business?
> 
> I know Mrs. C is attracted to me sexually but I don't think I'd care if she wasn't but still took care of business.
> 
> I guess I respect choices and actions more than feelings?


I would be okay with it if my spouse provided for me in that manner in a loving and open manner. I get that we can't always control our libido / sex drive and expecting her to be hot and ready when I am is not realistic. I would object to being starfished, once a month sex, or otherwise communicating actual distaste for the act.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Luckylucky said:


> I just read the comments, and what I find absolutely mind blowing, is how many women mentioned other men!! Almost all of them had met someone new online, at work etc.
> 
> I personally know a few women, and one man, who could have written that post. Only one of them had an abusive background. I happen to know them since we were all teens, and many of us are middle-aged now.
> 
> ...


I don't know if it's a wallet, having someone to control, having someone who looks good on your arm, or whatever.

But you're absolutely right. It's one thing for attraction to fade in a marriage. It's another, much worse thing to use a loving partner as an escape hatch or Plan B to leave a bad situation, although knowing people who have done that I can see how it seems like a good idea in the moment. But it's absolutely disgusting to take a person you don't like and double down on keeping them around just to suit your need. 

I really don't see how people can do that and live with themselves. In my (admittedly inexpert) view, this is the definition of sociopathic behavior: no empathy, disregard for the impact of their actions on others, knowing (or should know) something is wrong and doing it anways.


----------



## Luckylucky (Dec 11, 2020)

DTO said:


> I don't know if it's a wallet, having someone to control, having someone who looks good on your arm, or whatever.
> 
> But you're absolutely right. It's one thing for attraction to fade in a marriage. It's another, much worse thing to use a loving partner as an escape hatch or Plan B to leave a bad situation, although knowing people who have done that I can see how it seems like a good idea in the moment. But it's absolutely disgusting to take a person you don't like and double down on keeping them around just to suit your need. I really don't see how people can do that and live with themselves.


That’s the thing, in the comments section, these were women talking about 15-year marriages! And they didn’t stop at one child, never left or got a divorce. Yet they all mention how early on they knew they weren’t attracted and weren’t enjoying sex. I’d have respect for anyone that said one year on, or one child later, ‘I’m not attracted to you, your touch repulses me/hurts me, I find myself fantasising about other men/women’ and then went to a lawyer and got a divorce moving. But they never do?? They keep having children! Which to me seems sinister and cunning. You don’t want someone touching you, why create more of a binding situation to that person? Yes it is controlling and very sinister. If my husband repulsed me sexually, I would stop having kids, knowing that it’s so much harder to leave. 

In the personal stories I mentioned, these are decades-long marriages, or heading to the 20-year mark. Also more than one kid. The kids kept coming! As I said these are close friendships where we tell each other everything. And usually a bigger house and car with each new kid. 

One of these women I know since we were small kids. She had a pattern of having long-term relationships and suddenly ending them. Even back then she was telling us sex was low on her list of priorities, and her boyfriends were complaining about it. There were three men, short-term lovers that made her come alive sexually, but all 3 dumped her quickly. She then had long-terms in between those 🤷🏻‍♀️ As a close friend, I do remember sometimes finding her a bit on the cold side when we would have period pain or minor illnesses, and there was a competitive streak I just didn’t find common among anyone else in our group. She did confess once to me about kissing someone that one of us was keen on. Not because she was attracted to him, but because the other girl was so beautiful she just wanted to do it 😳 She never gave compliments to any other female. 

So before she even got pregnant, she was telling us her man was complaining about the lack of sex. They have 4 kids and 20 years together.


----------



## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

sokillme said:


> No one said cheating though, the blog post isn't about that.


It might not technically be cheating, but it is certainly lying and betrayal. How many of these men would have married these women had they not lied or deceived?


DTO said:


> I don't know if it's a wallet, having someone to control, having someone who looks good on your arm, or whatever.
> 
> But you're absolutely right. It's one thing for attraction to fade in a marriage. It's another, much worse thing to use a loving partner as an escape hatch or Plan B to leave a bad situation, although knowing people who have done that I can see how it seems like a good idea in the moment. *But it's absolutely disgusting to take a person you don't like and double down on keeping them around just to suit your need.*
> 
> I really don't see how people can do that and live with themselves. In my (admittedly inexpert) view, this is the definition of sociopathic behavior: no empathy, disregard for the impact of their actions on others, knowing (or should know) something is wrong and doing it anways.


It doesn't have to be a person you don't like. Not at all. It can be the reason for the acronym BFF. The "Forever" part rings strongly. There's a connection, a strong one, a feeling that this is someone you would like to share your joys and angst with. And if you've come off sexual relationships that didn't/couldn't last, something sustainable was missing, maybe you have to make a choice. Maybe you don't even recognize it's a choice, But you can continue going from one sexually-oriented relationship that doesn't last to another, or, at some point, think maybe the BFF thing is the key, go for the BFF and of course sex will be fine! Why wouldn't it be? It was the only thing that was fine in the past! 

So I think people can get kinda sorta innocently headed in that direction. But when they don't disclose, when they deceive both themselves and their potential long-term partner, that's when it becomes criminal. The intent was different, but the poor guy or woman who's the BFF never had a chance, because you cannot compete with raw, illicit sex that you believe you shouldn't be having. The very fact that someone might think it wrong, something they have to get away from... that provides the poison.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

ConanHub said:


> So the little whiny guy everyone is making fun of isn't right?😋


Anybody who says something isn't important, usually doesn't have it or the ability to get it.


----------



## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

LATERILUS79 said:


> I dont think you are being mean at all.
> 
> maybe men should be able to tell the difference, but I can’t honestly say that I would be able to. For example, when I was still stuck in my dead Bedroom, my wife told me that it is normal and that none of her friends have sex with their husbands either. That seemed crazy to me, but I believed her. She’s my wife. I should just trust what she says.
> 
> ...


She's probably not lying, but she was using what other wives were doing to not justify her desire to not love her husband.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

Livvie said:


> I'm not trying to be mean here, but a man should be able to trell the difference between a woman who wants him sexually and a woman who is only having sex to keep a relationship.


Men are just as subject to the examples their parents set as well. 
I come from a background where my mother didn't sleep in the same bedroom as my father. That would be considered normal for me, if I didn't have sites like this to tell me that was not normal.
Men tend to only talk about their conquests, real or imagined. They don't really talk about their relationships back at home, so they aren't really educated as to how home life should be.


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## Luckylucky (Dec 11, 2020)

@LATERILUS79 you mentioned your wife told you that was normal, that’s what her friends told her, and she related that to you. (It’s not normal, in my group of friends, the women I mentioned get a stern talking to, we tell them they’re being cruel etc). 

Did you have your own close friends to talk to, anyone? It was a cruel move and I’m saddened that you believed this. Why didn’t you have a close group of friends that could help you out here, and favourable marriages around you so that you had a comparison. I’m glad to hear it’s working out for you, the resentment is understandable and hopefully that settles so you can enjoy the present.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

Following on from that… it’s not normal among my group of friends either. It may be the case among her friends, but not with mine.

I’m aware of some moments in time where there’s been some kind of mismatch or disconnect, however, it’s been something they wanted to address/improve because they want and like sex …and with their spouses.

I’ve had one friend randomly text me ‘I’m horny AF and can’t wait for him (husband) to get home.’ okay lol.

When I put my back out not so long ago, and shared that with friends in group text, the first reply was ‘Which freaky position caused it?’ And the jokes ensued from there.

There was a friend years back who shared she wasn’t letting her husband near her sexually. All was about how she felt within herself. Being the good friends we were, we gave her a hard time. With good intentions. Anyway, she went home and sexxxed up her husband that night. Upon hearing this, other friend and I were joking that her husband owed us a beer. Anyway, just throwing out different perspective.

Although @Blondilocks nailed it with what she wrote.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

To add… I’d put my back out in a very boring way. Completely unrelated to sex.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Casual Observer said:


> But when they don't disclose, when they deceive both themselves and their potential long-term partner, that's when it becomes criminal.


That's the worst part, IMO. You don't want sex with your husband anymore, for whatever reason - personal issues, mental issues, body issues, not in love anymore, disappointed in husband, menopause - be honest. Tell your husband.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

jonty30 said:


> Men are just as subject to the examples their parents set as well.
> I come from a background where my mother didn't sleep in the same bedroom as my father. That would be considered normal for me, if I didn't have sites like this to tell me that was not normal.
> Men tend to only talk about their conquests, real or imagined. They don't really talk about their relationships back at home, so they aren't really educated as to how home life should be.


Well, my parents both did and didn't do things I never would in how they conduct their life and relationship, on many fronts, but that has no bearing whatsoever whether I feel either sexual attraction to or sexual revulsion _for, or from_, a sexual partner of mine. 

Sexually speaking, even way back in high school I could tell, and my friends could tell, when someone of the opposite sex was truly into them or not. My friends and I would talk about guys and sex and dating and relationships and we knew if we were really attracted to a guy, or not, or just going through the dating motions but not really into him. And I had male friends as well and I heard plenty of the same from them! They knew who they were attracted to or not, who they were hooking up with just for sex but not really into, and they could tell which girls really wanted them and which ones just wanted to use them for dates but didn't want to **** them.... but who was harboring a big crush for a guy she couldn't get so she settled for who she could. That's what high school drama is all about. X and Y are dating but X really is hot for Z but Z doesn't want X which is why X is settling for Y and they have lukewarm kisses together. Meanwhile A starts flirting with Y so Y cheats on X with A in the backseat of a car after prom and X and Y have a messy breakup. 

As an adult, you can tell when someone has passion and desire for you and when they don't and when they are repulsed by you and when they aren't. And that has nothing to do with whether your parents shared a bedroom or not.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

I think the reason why there is so much gender disparity, when it comes to this topic, is that women often want men around....whether it's for sex or some other reason...Guys really don't do that...I really don't know of any guy who goes out of his way to get close to women, with no hope of getting laid...Women, on the other hand, do it all the time...

So, the chances of getting hood winked here are pretty big for guys...But you have to be pretty smart, and perceptive... You need to know the cues......IME/O sexual attraction isn't something that "grows over time"....In fact, it's probably at it's strongest point initially, and if anything fades with time....

This scenario happened with a good friend of mine...He met this woman online...They dated for several months without more than a goodnight, unpassionate kiss...She loved the attention he was throwing at her so she played along, I kept telling him she was only in it for attention, and if she wanted him, he'd have already been in her a million times, but all he did was call me childish and a "horn dog"...Lol...This guy went on with this for two years, only to discover she was actively still dating other guys behind his back....

That type of stuff guys don't generally do, so it's foreign to them and they don't get it....


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

heartsbeating said:


> Following on from that… it’s not normal among my group of friends either. It may be the case among her friends, but not with mine.
> 
> I’m aware of some moments in time where there’s been some kind of mismatch or disconnect, however, it’s been something they wanted to address/improve because they want and like sex …and with their spouses.
> 
> ...


It's not normal with my friends either.

Here are some things I've gotten recently from girlfriends:

Friend 1: we do it 2-3 times a week and I get mine (56 years old and married 10 years)

Friend 2: I'm finally getting some since hb changed his medication and can get it up again (49, married 22 years)

Friend 3: she'd stopped initiating because hb didn't seem interested. Not sure what changed but he now wants it all the time and she's thrilled (47 and married 21 years).

Friend 4: just married her bf of 6 years and can't get enough of him.

Me: 3 1/2 years with my bf and I love every minute of our naked time.

I know these women in the article exist but I don't know any. It sounds like a terrible way for both spouses to live.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

sokillme said:


> I think everyone in this video is worth making fun of, the whiny guy and the guys posting the videos of their gains.


I didn't really want to give the guy any of my traffic so I found videos of others covering him.

The video is too long to make a point about the guy but there are some girls posing later that got a laugh from me.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Luckylucky said:


> It’s not necessarily a bad thing to fear losing your spouse?? To some degree, if we all felt this, it would probably make us better partners. If you’re into your wife or your husband, you will no doubt treat them better, really enjoy having sex with them, attend to their needs and pull your weight in life to work through this tough life together. I worry too many people DON’T fear losing a good man or woman and take tomorrow for granted.


This is so true. Several years ago when my kids were preparing to head off to college a fear of losing my wife started creeping into my thoughts. I started recognizing every one of my faults and everything I had taken for granted for so long. I was a really good husband and father overall, but none of us are perfect. All of my faults became glaringly obvious to me and I wondered if she saw them too (I'm sure she did). That fear, even though it wasn't overwhelming or crippling, nothing that serious, made me worried about what would happen when the distraction of kids wasn't in our relationship anymore. I did not want to lose her. 

That drove me to work on our relationship. That work paid off big time. I feel we are as close or closer than we've ever been in our marriage. I'm positive our sex life and intimacy is better than it ever has been. Now my regret is that I didn't work on our relationship sooner. The "work" wasn't even that difficult. It mostly came down to really talking to one another. Candid conversations about what we want and don't want, like and don't like and what we needed from each other. Lesson learned, never take you spouse for granted and act like today could be your last day with them.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Lesson learned, never take you spouse for granted and act like today could be your last day with them.


This. It needs to be bi-directional.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

Luckylucky said:


> @LATERILUS79 you mentioned your wife told you that was normal, that’s what her friends told her, and she related that to you. (It’s not normal, in my group of friends, the women I mentioned get a stern talking to, we tell them they’re being cruel etc).
> 
> Did you have your own close friends to talk to, anyone? It was a cruel move and I’m saddened that you believed this. Why didn’t you have a close group of friends that could help you out here, and favourable marriages around you so that you had a comparison. I’m glad to hear it’s working out for you, the resentment is understandable and hopefully that settles so you can enjoy the present.


@Luckylucky @heartsbeating @lifeistooshort

Thank you for your input. I am well aware now that many things in my marriage were NOT normal. Trust me when I say that I beat myself up on a daily basis for allowing things to go down the way they have. As great of a place that TAM is, I know all of you (and myself) grew up during a time when information wasn't nearly as available as it is now. I fell madly in love with my wife 20 years ago and the first few years were amazing. Why things went wrong? I don't know. All I know is that she had already hooked me by that point and I just waited for my wife to "come back" to me someday. She was inside there somewhere and she would come back.

Yes, I had some friends that I would talk to. Yes, they told me it wasn't normal - but I loved my wife and she had my trust. Well, she no longer has my trust. I am currently in a situation where she has A LOT of work to do if she ever wants to regain it. I track our sex on a spreadsheet. During the hysterical bonding time, she thought it was funny and fun. Now she doesn't. She asked me to stop it a few months back. I told her no. She asked me why. I told her straight up because I don't trust one F-ing word that comes out of her mouth. She used to gaslight me back during our dead bedroom. If I would bring up "Hey, we haven't had sex in 3 weeks" she would say, "No, you are mistaken. We had sex 2 days ago.". I knew that was wrong. I knew it, but I loved my wife. She could convince me that what she was saying was the truth. I told her in the past year that she used to do this to me. Her answer to that is, "Well, I don't remember (she never does) doing that to you, but if I did, I didn't mean it (she never does).".

So until our MC starts (should be in 4-6 weeks as we are on a waiting list), I've been living in this sort of limbo. Is my wife attracted to me? I think so? Maybe? I know it is difficult to understand that some men simply cannot tell the difference between true passion and love with desperately wanting to hold onto safety and security. For men like me, how am I supposed to know the difference? I did plenty of sexual things with women prior to my wife, but never PIV. Never anything "passionate". So the only woman I've ever been with is my wife. I am happy to wear that as a badge of honor. Not many men can say the same thing - but it means nothing to me if my wife isn't into me the way I am into her.

The only thing I can say for certain that I know about my wife right now is that she can see the pain in my eyes. She can see the extreme resentment that I hold - and she is terrified of me leaving. It's the first time in our marriage that she knows I am not F-ing around. She knows she is on the thinnest ice. Our sex life is "ok". It was truly amazing when we were hysterically bonding last year, but it has fallen back into just "ok". The only thing different between now and my dead bedroom is that she keeps the frequency up because she knows if she F's up just one week, I'm gone (this of course excludes sickness, physical issues, or extreme scheduling problems due to work. If both spouses are in health and we aren't overly busy at work, then I offer no leniency).

I sincerely hope she finally opens up in MC. I'd like to know why she is so damn desperate to keep me. She has a great job. She doesn't need me to provide. So is it love? Does she really desire me? I don't know. I look forward to these sessions. We'll see how this year goes.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

ccpowerslave said:


> This. It needs to be bi-directional.


Absolutely, and that is why I feel so good about the changes I made and work that I've put in. There was a bit of a time lag for my wife to recognize and react, but everything has been reciprocated in some form by her. That makes me want to do it even more and then the same for her and it just snowballs.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

I am still tracking sex as well. In my case it’s just to have a record of it so if I feel it is bad I can check and have an accurate record.

My wife has been extremely busy with work. The last two nights in a row she worked until 1am. She has been doing this basically since December and predictably the bedroom has suffered. We were stable at around 5x a week for almost all of 2021 and now it’s more like 3x.

During a lot of 2021 I was changing my behavior as a reaction to sex or no sex and investing energy in trying to have that number stay up. Around October my own work became more consuming and I also started hard PT in November, harder than usual which also made me more tired. So I stopped changing behavior and basically let it run “off the rails”.

The current level we are at is “ok”. I would describe it using the same term. The good part is it requires no reactive energy from me. I can concentrate on stuff for myself. Such as March is bench press month.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

ccpowerslave said:


> She has been doing this basically since December and predictably the bedroom has suffered. We were stable at around 5x a week for almost all of 2021 and now it’s more like 3x.


You must be quite depressed. How long are you giving her before you lower the thermostat?


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

In Absentia said:


> You must be quite depressed. How long are you giving her before you lower the thermostat?


I don’t know. I have considered it but right now the pattern of it for say February was like every other day. So by the time I’m thinking, “hmm” well we have sex.

BTW I assume your post was /s however the struggle is real.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

ccpowerslave said:


> I am still tracking sex as well. In my case it’s just to have a record of it so if I feel it is bad I can check and have an accurate record.
> 
> My wife has been extremely busy with work. The last two nights in a row she worked until 1am. She has been doing this basically since December and predictably the bedroom has suffered. We were stable at around 5x a week for almost all of 2021 and now it’s more like 3x.
> 
> ...


And this is the overall theme when it comes to my wife. Getting comfortable and falling back into “ok”


I need to know why in the hell she is so desperate to keep me. Why? Is it because I am the only man on the planet that will put up with her crap, and now that I don’t, are there any men out there that would at our age? Does she subconsciously know that things would be difficult for her out on the open market? Sure, she is a beautiful woman and will find someone new very quick, but once her trauma (which she has NEVER addressed) surfaces in a new relationship, the new guy would be out in a heartbeat. 

I spent a lot of time thinking about this last year. Every time our relationship/marriage got better, it was immediately following a period where I started to pull away. It makes me feel like she has actually always paid attention to what was going on - and when she would feel the pressure of me possibly leaving, she would do the bare minimum to reel me back in. Don’t get me wrong - I love my wife. We’ve had plenty of good and great times over the years, but it’s only been the last 15 months or so that I’ve truly put this together and it has really increased my resentment. Her bare minimum effort. It pisses me off to no end.

this last time? The hysterical bonding time? I still consider that to be the bare minimum effort. Reason being, I think she knew this time was no joke. I was about detached. I was mentally ready to leave. I was preparing everything for myself to walk out the door. No hatred in my heart. We just go our separate ways and I would have been perfectly happy to live alone whether I was with a new woman or not. I didn’t care. I just didn’t want to be alone in my marital home any more. I’m sure you know this as well, it is an awful feeling being alone in a house that you share with your wife. Well, she knew something drastic needed to happen, so she opened the sex floodgates and did a ton of new stuff and was super sexy and was extremely passionate and bonded emotionally with me as well - all to get me to fall madly in love with her again right when I was ready to leave.

why? Why do this to me? Why so damn desperate to keep me only to fall right the F back into “ok”? Inquiring minds want to know. My curiosity is killing me. I just have to know. The only thing different this time is due to her fear of me leaving and she knows she can’t reset up the dead bedroom. She knows that’s game over for sure. So last ditch effort is MC. Hope she opens up. It is her last shot - but I really want her to “win”. Take that opportunity and don’t screw it up. Put in maximum effort for a change and show me why so desperate to keep me. I love my wife very much. I really want her to step up and show me that she wants to keep me because she loves me as well.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

LATERILUS79 said:


> And this is the overall theme when it comes to my wife. Getting comfortable and falling back into “ok”
> 
> 
> I need to know why in the hell she is so desperate to keep me. Why? Is it because I am the only man on the planet that will put up with her crap, and now that I don’t, are there any men out there that would at our age? Does she subconsciously know that things would be difficult for her out on the open market? Sure, she is a beautiful woman and will find someone new very quick, but once her trauma (which she has NEVER addressed) surfaces in a new relationship, the new guy would be out in a heartbeat.
> ...


I'd wager she likes the benefits of being married and knows in a new relationship she'd have to bring her A game all of the time.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

@LATERILUS79 

Do you think there is any chance that your wife genuinely believes falsehoods like you had sex 2 days ago, or are you sure she's lying to get you off her back?

This kind of thing happens with other things like chores. Couples fight over who does more because one really believes they do more then they do, but when it's tracked on a spreadsheet it becomes obvious that they do a lot less then thry think. You'd think that it would be obvious how much one does around the house but it's not.

I hope you get some answers from your wife. 
She may genuinely not know why sex is such a problem but you need to know what you're dealing with.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

@LATERILUS79 @ccpowerslave 

I think you guys raise an interesting point in the marital sexual dynamics, in that there are seasons for everything.

It is totally unrealistic to expect the peak sexual activity to be the standard. There are ebbs and flows, as well as multiple variables, some of which were alluded to by both of you. 

What helps is having a timeline in your head for things to be "less than". In my situation, I will allow things to be lax (not sexless, but maybe diminished frequency or more vanilla) for about 90 days. After that, I will give her a gentle reminder. If the gentle reminder doesn't work, I will simply tell her I am going to tie her up and have my way with her (or some other non-vanilla, playful encounter). 

What I see is important in this is patience. It is triggering for the HD to see drops in frequency for whatever reason, largely due to fear of relapsing. And even if the LD was largely responsible for the dead bedroom situation of the past, it is not the LD's job to manage the triggers of the HD. We all have to manage our own triggers. 

That sounds unfair, and to some small degree, it is. But our emotions and feelings are ours to own.





Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


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## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

LATERILUS79 said:


> And this is the overall theme when it comes to my wife. *Getting comfortable and falling back into “ok”*
> 
> 
> I need to know *why in the hell she is so desperate to keep me.* Why? Is it because I am the only man on the planet that will put up with her crap, and now that I don’t, are there any men out there that would at our age? Does she subconsciously know that things would be difficult for her out on the open market? Sure, she is a beautiful woman and will find someone new very quick, but once her trauma (which she has NEVER addressed) surfaces in a new relationship, the new guy would be out in a heartbeat.
> ...


@LATERILUS79 I have gone through many of the same issues as you (bolded in your post). The biggest difference I see is that my wife has no trauma in her past like your wife does. Maybe that means your wife trauma plays no role, or maybe it does.

Let me just worn you that counseling may not get you anywhere. Do you know how you will handle things if your wife doesn't open up? My wife is very introverted and does not open up at all. My wife went to a counselor for a few month and then we went together for a few sessions. This did not change things for us. I hope your results are different, but you should prepare for either outcome.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

ccpowerslave said:


> I don’t know. I have considered it but right now the pattern of it for say February was like every other day. So by the time I’m thinking, “hmm” well we have sex.
> 
> BTW I assume your post was /s however the struggle is real.


I have had to slightly lower the thermostat a few times, surprisingly enough, not due to a lack of sex, but when she gets so self involved in her own world that she becomes neglectful of our marriage. 

All I have to do is stop calling her when I am on my way home. That really gets to her.

When she brings it up, I tell her some variation of the following:

"Are you back? You left for a while, so I was focused on myself."

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

lifeistooshort said:


> @LATERILUS79
> 
> Do you think there is any chance that your wife genuinely believes falsehoods like you had sex 2 days ago, or are you sure she's lying to get you off her back?
> 
> ...


This sparked my interest because it rings true but also maybe reveals how his wife viewed sex (possibly) as a less important chore.


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## Fly With Me (Jul 11, 2021)

LATERILUS79 said:


> And this is the overall theme when it comes to my wife. Getting comfortable and falling back into “ok”
> 
> 
> I need to know why in the hell she is so desperate to keep me. Why? Is it because I am the only man on the planet that will put up with her crap, and now that I don’t, are there any men out there that would at our age? Does she subconsciously know that things would be difficult for her out on the open market? Sure, she is a beautiful woman and will find someone new very quick, but once her trauma (which she has NEVER addressed) surfaces in a new relationship, the new guy would be out in a heartbeat.
> ...


Laterilus have you told her any of this? 

Have you come across attachment styles? She sounds fearful avoidant. Thais Gibson on youtube has some good videos on it you might enjoy and might help with some of the confusion. It sounds like in the past you were anxious and are now moving towards secure.

My husband now requires total honesty and vulnerability from me. It is hard for me and I have needed a lot of coaching and counselling support to help me learn. I didn't know how to be vulnerable - I know that sounds crazy to those who find it easy. She might well need some individual counselling before the couples counselling.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

ccpowerslave said:


> I don’t know. I have considered it but right now the pattern of it for say February was like every other day. So by the time I’m thinking, “hmm” well we have sex.
> 
> BTW I assume your post was /s however the struggle is real.


Sorry, I was pulling your leg a bit....  3 times/week would have been a dream come true for me, but I do understand we all have different needs and realities... just be careful not to spoil yours too much by being too intransigent...


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

Livvie said:


> I'd wager she likes the benefits of being married and knows in a new relationship she'd have to bring her A game all of the time.


I didn't want to say it. I'm glad that a woman did.

I consider myself to be a high quality man - not as bragging. I know I don't suck ass. My wife is brilliant. She knows what she has in me as a husband. She knows she is beautiful. She knows she can have other men..... but getting another high quality man? 😂 The way our marriage goes right now? No way. We are too old for that crap. Any high quality man in his 40's and 50's will sniff that out immediately and leave her. She would absolutely have to be on her A game all the time and her history tells me she won't. 



lifeistooshort said:


> @LATERILUS79
> 
> Do you think there is any chance that your wife genuinely believes falsehoods like you had sex 2 days ago, or are you sure she's lying to get you off her back?
> 
> ...


You are very wise. I enjoy many of your posts. 

I think your statements here are very plausible. I think my wife is so damn avoidant that it is very reasonable to think that she lives in a state of denial. I think she definitely lies to herself so that she doesn't have to face the fact that things are screwed up and not normal. I think she purposefully finds friends that go along with her confirmation bias. She doesn't want to be friends with other women that have passionate, frequent sex with their husbands because that would tell her that she is doing something wrong. She don't want that. 

At the same time, she knows she's on her last chance. She says that her fear is causing her anxiety. I told her that is her own fault. She created the fear in her head. I am simply stating my boundaries out loud and no longer granting leniency (except for the reasons I gave prior. There are many reasonable times where sex won't be happening). She says she has a mental clock and won't let us go past two days without. Sorry. I'm out of F's to give. She destroyed all of my sympathy, empathy, understanding, etc. over the past 18 years. She created her own fear. My question is, "Why be afraid of losing me? Why don't we go our separate ways? I'm not forcing you to do anything you don't want to do. You won't be afraid any more of losing me then.". Problem is, she would have to admit to herself what @Livvie just said. 

She can absolutely regain my trust, sympathy, empathy, understanding.... everything. Why? Because I love her very much. the opportunity is there for the taking. She just has to want it. I hope she takes it. I hope she wins. I can't force her to do it. She has to want it. 

As for her love languages, I am very aware. I always have been. She's kinda scattered all over the map, but I would say acts of service, gift giving and at times, touch are at the top. We've always split the chores in a reasonable way. Obviously, I'm going to take the brunt of things that are going to require more strength. All outdoor chores are mine - but, we are both professionals with full time jobs. I'm always looking for a way to lower her stress. I won't let dishes pile up. I'll do more laundry. I'll pick up around the house. Things she would normally do, but if things are getting out of control, I step up. Gift giving? I'm very much into that. I'm always looking for something new and unique to show her how much I care. I also do a lot crafting type things. I'll spend 50-100 hours making something custom especially for her. I also bought her a massage table - and as crazy as this may seem, it is a NSA massage table. She gets very tight when she is stressed and her neck, shoulders and back will be killing her. I'm VERY good at working out muscle groups. I will straight up put her to sleep on this massage table when I'm done with her in about an hour's time. Sex is not a requirement for a massage with me. I love my wife. I want to do things for her because she is very important to me. 

Am I perfect? Hell no. I miss things when she needs me sometimes. Sometimes I've been the one to put in a bare minimum effort. I know there are things I do that she does not like and she would like those to improve - that would require her to talk to talk to me though. Something she avoids. Only way for us to have a serious talk is if I schedule it - and it has to be scheduled or she won't do it. Best I was ever able to get is 1 hour per week last year and she'd do anything to get out of it. Rug sweeping is her specialty. 

But even with all of my shortcomings, I can confidently say that I put in a very strong effort and I feel that she is always putting in the bare minimum. 



farsidejunky said:


> @LATERILUS79 @ccpowerslave
> 
> I think you guys raise an interesting point in the marital sexual dynamics, in that there are seasons for everything.
> 
> ...


I think I can get back to this point if I see some true effort out of my wife. Problem is, I have so much resentment that right now I'm out of F's to give. My patience is shot. She absolutely can rebuild my patience, but right now, I cannot do what you are describing here. I desperately need answers.

You know what I want more than anything in MC? I want her to hurt me. BADLY. I want her to tell me some secret that she is holding onto - and I know she's got them. Tell me something that is going to hurt. Why? Because I would actually know she is telling me the truth for a change.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

Fly With Me said:


> Laterilus have you told her any of this?
> 
> Have you come across attachment styles? She sounds fearful avoidant. Thais Gibson on youtube has some good videos on it you might enjoy and might help with some of the confusion. It sounds like in the past you were anxious and are now moving towards secure.
> 
> My husband now requires total honesty and vulnerability from me. It is hard for me and I have needed a lot of coaching and counselling support to help me learn. I didn't know how to be vulnerable - I know that sounds crazy to those who find it easy. She might well need some individual counselling before the couples counselling.


Yes. Been doing much studying over the past 15 months.

Good call on my anxiety. I'm always anxious. I'm secure in myself, but I am just an anxious person in general. 

My wife goes to IC. I think her IC sucks ass. I think she always finds people to go with her confirmation bias and doesn't want to deal with the "discomfort" of confronting her own demons. She actually didn't understand why I was pissed off when she told me one time last year that she's been spending lots of time in IC talking about our kids. WTF. I told her that isn't the time to be discussing our children. That is the time for you to be learning about yourself and confronting your demons.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Yes. Been doing much studying over the past 15 months.
> 
> Good call on my anxiety. I'm always anxious. I'm secure in myself, but I am just an anxious person in general.
> 
> My wife goes to IC. I think her IC sucks ass. I think she always finds people to go with her confirmation bias and doesn't want to deal with the "discomfort" of confronting her own demons. She actually didn't understand why I was pissed off when she told me one time last year that she's been spending lots of time in IC talking about our kids. WTF. I told her that isn't the time to be discussing our children. That is the time for you to be learning about yourself and confronting your demons.


Absolutely do not let her use her anxiety to manipulate you because it isn't your problem. Everyone who doesn't want a divorce but knows its coming has anxiety, but this marriage is working for her.

You may have faults but they can't be that bad or she wouldn't be so terrified of losing you.

I suspect you two are incompatible and that is a hard thing to accept because nobody is really at fault. You're trying tp pound a square peg into a round hole and it won't work. Closed systems go to equilibrium and in the case of people that's our natural state....your wife’s natural state either doesn't want sex or doesn't want it with you.

She's panicking because she doesn't know what to do because it's not fixable but she likely isn't being malicious.

I don't know if you've read my story but I had the same thing with my ex as far as incompatibility. Among many other things he was a surface and phony guy who was hugely concerned with image management but couldn't talk about anything beyond sports and the weather. I needed an actual connection and he did make some forced effort at the end but you could tell it wasn't him.

Of course he also had an ex gf on the side our entire relationship, and while he was terrified of losing the marriage he also didn't have it in him to address anything. He was terrified of conflict and went into tantrums to try to force rug sweeping but also cried when I told him we were finished.

He couldn't make the journey I needed and I had to accept that we were incomparable.

Give counseling a try but I suspect you will need to accept the same thing.
She'll kick and scream right to the end like my ex did so you'll need to be strong. Hell, my ex didn't even tell his family until a couple of months after our divorce and continued to wear his ring. Nobody buried his head in the sand like him.

Keep posting. I always found the venting helpful.

And thank you for the kind words 🙂


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

LATERILUS79 said:


> @Luckylucky @heartsbeating @lifeistooshort
> 
> Thank you for your input. I am well aware now that many things in my marriage were NOT normal. Trust me when I say that I beat myself up on a daily basis for allowing things to go down the way they have. As great of a place that TAM is, I know all of you (and myself) grew up during a time when information wasn't nearly as available as it is now. I fell madly in love with my wife 20 years ago and the first few years were amazing. Why things went wrong? I don't know. All I know is that she had already hooked me by that point and I just waited for my wife to "come back" to me someday. She was inside there somewhere and she would come back.
> 
> ...


For many women there’s little or no connection between love and sex in marriage. Sex is just sex to them and if they don’t need it then it’s not high on their priority list. If she does desire you it’s definitely not how you desire her because sex isn’t as important to her. Hysterical bonding isn’t a good indicator of desire since it tends to be fear-driven — especially if divorce is mentioned. Hopefully, marriage counseling will help.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Fly With Me said:


> Laterilus have you told her any of this?
> 
> Have you come across attachment styles? She sounds fearful avoidant. Thais Gibson on youtube has some good videos on it you might enjoy and might help with some of the confusion. It sounds like in the past you were anxious and are now moving towards secure.
> 
> My husband now requires total honesty and vulnerability from me. It is hard for me and I have needed a lot of coaching and counselling support to help me learn. I didn't know how to be vulnerable - I know that sounds crazy to those who find it easy. She might well need some individual counselling before the couples counselling.


Thank you for working at it. Recognizing it’s an issue and dealing with it. Your husband is a fortunate man.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Livvie said:


> I'd wager she likes the benefits of being married and knows in a new relationship she'd have to bring her A game all of the time.


Yes. And maybe she knows she would very likely be just disinterested in sex in her new relationship once the honeymoon period was over.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

lifeistooshort said:


> Absolutely do not let her use her anxiety to manipulate you because it isn't your problem. Everyone who doesn't want a divorce but knows its coming has anxiety, but this marriage is working for her.
> 
> You may have faults but they can't be that bad or she wouldn't be so terrified of losing you.


I appreciate you looking at this from a logical standpoint. I will continue on as I have been, but I don't share all the details here. I don't want to get hounded as being considered controlling or attempting to force my wife to do anything. Everything is her choice to do what she wants. If she feels anxiety or fear of losing me over my boundaries, that is her problem, not mine.

I agree with this marriage working for her. She clearly gets everything she wants. The only time she isn't getting what she wants is when she feels uncomfortable when I bring up marriage issues that are not working for me. I don't hound her for sex. I ask. When I get rejected, I walk away. If she accepts, we have sex. It really is as simple as that.


lifeistooshort said:


> I suspect you two are incompatible and that is a hard thing to accept because nobody is really at fault. You're trying tp pound a square peg into a round hole and it won't work. Closed systems go to equilibrium and in the case of people that's our natural state....your wife’s natural state either doesn't want sex or doesn't want it with you.
> 
> She's panicking because she doesn't know what to do because it's not fixable but she likely isn't being malicious.


This is plausible. I really can't rule out anything and I can see this being the case. I do believe that many incompatibilities can be overcome if both partners WANT to. I believe that is called "sacrifice".  I do things for my wife because I love her. I'm happy to do those things for her because she is very important to me. I expect the same out of my partner.

As for my wife not wanting sex or not wanting sex with me - Yes and no. She has some trauma that she has avoided and used me to hide behind it for 20 years. This is another boundary of mine. She needs to go through some effort to get through this. I'm not looking for being "fixed". I am looking for effort. Effort that she wants to be healed and wants to be better and effort because I am important to her and our marriage is important. No effort shows me she doesn't care and would use me as a crutch for the remainder of our lives. This I cannot accept.

I remember last year when I told her that her IC is not holding her feet to the fire. She told me that isn't true and then went on to explain something that her IC said to her. I honestly can't remember because it was so minor in the grand scheme of things that it wasn't worth my time to remember. There are SERIOUS things she needs to address and she hasn't done it yet. She has this year to do it and show effort. I will go down into the depths of hell and stand by her side and comfort her if she shows me that she is trying. I love her. I'll do anything for her, but doing nothing is not an option.


I do believe you are correct on her panicking. I think this is very well could be her problem. The only caveat I would say is that it is fixable.... but she doesn't want to do it. She wants to revert back to comfort and hiding. She only takes action when the fear of losing me surpasses the her normal every day fears.

I also agree that she isn't malicious. Sometimes I have a hard time seeing this when my resentment boils over, but I think you are correct. I do think my wife loves me and doesn't want to hurt me on purpose.



lifeistooshort said:


> I don't know if you've read my story but I had the same thing with my ex as far as incompatibility. Among many other things he was a surface and phony guy who was hugely concerned with image management but couldn't talk about anything beyond sports and the weather. I needed an actual connection and he did make some forced effort at the end but you could tell it wasn't him.
> 
> Of course he also had an ex gf on the side our entire relationship, and while he was terrified of losing the marriage he also didn't have it in him to address anything. He was terrified of conflict and went into tantrums to try to force rug sweeping but also cried when I told him we were finished.
> 
> ...


I had not read your story, but your ex's actions sound horribly similar to my wife's.

Maybe MC doesn't help. I've fully accepted that is a possibility. I do appreciate she was the one that got on it and found us a MC. It makes me feel there is hope that she wants us to get better. Again, I don't expect the world here. I don't expect to get exactly what I want. I expect effort. I expect her to put in the effort that SHOWS me that I matter. I don't expect perfection.


If nothing helps, I walk away. I can live with that. I know it will crush me. I know I'll be hurt really bad. I know my kids won't like it, but it has to happen.



Openminded said:


> For many women there’s little or no connection between love and sex in marriage. Sex is just sex to them and if they don’t need it then it’s not high on their priority list. If she does desire you it’s definitely not how you desire her because sex isn’t as important to her. Hysterical bonding isn’t a good indicator of desire since it tends to be fear-driven — especially if divorce is mentioned. Hopefully, marriage counseling will help.


I've never heard of this. It is typically the opposite that is always talked about. Men easily separating love from sex and women attaching love to sex. Not saying it doesn't happen in reverse. I'm sure it does in some. I certainly attach pretty much all emotional love to sex. It has to be there for me.

I know at some level she desires me (or at least I think she does. I can be pretty dense). She certainly acts like she thoroughly enjoys sex when we are into it. Either that or she is an excellent actress. I assume that could be a possibility.

I agree that hysterical bonding comes out of fear. It certainly did not for me personally, but I can see how that came about for her. I know FOR SURE she certainly LOVED sex with me and desired me during that time. Like..... crazy enjoyed it.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

LATERILUS79 said:


> I've never heard of this. It is typically the opposite that is always talked about. Men easily separating love from sex and women attaching love to sex. Not saying it doesn't happen in reverse. I'm sure it does in some. I certainly attach pretty much all emotional love to sex. It has to be there for me.
> 
> I know at some level she desires me (or at least I think she does. I can be pretty dense). She certainly acts like she thoroughly enjoys sex when we are into it. Either that or she is an excellent actress. I assume that could be a possibility.
> 
> I agree that hysterical bonding comes out of fear. It certainly did not for me personally, but I can see how that came about for her. I know FOR SURE she certainly LOVED sex with me and desired me during that time. Like..... crazy enjoyed it.


Many women don’t connect sex with love. That’s the stereotype but it isn’t always correct. Especially women who have CSA in their history (raises hand). She very likely does love you and doesn’t want to lose you but the level of desire you feel for her isn’t the level of desire she feels for you. And she apparently can’t keep that going to the extent that you want day after day, week after week, year after year. She’s the only one who knows how much she fakes (if she does) and I doubt she wants to share that. She probably is getting scared again that you’ll divorce her so maybe she’ll take MC seriously but she’s apparently not taking IC too seriously so who knows. Temporary change is easy. Permanent change is not. It takes a lot of time and effort to turn temporary into permanent. That’s why it’s uncommon.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Openminded said:


> Many women don’t connect sex with love. That’s the stereotype but it isn’t always correct. Especially women who have CSA in their history (raises hand). She very likely does love you and doesn’t want to lose you but the level of desire you feel for her isn’t the level of desire she feels for you. And she apparently can’t keep that going to the extent that you want day after day, week after week, year after year. She’s the only one who knows how much she fakes (if she does) and I doubt she wants to share that. She probably is getting scared again that you’ll divorce her so maybe she’ll take MC seriously but she’s apparently not taking IC too seriously so who knows. Temporary change is easy. Permanent change is not. It takes a lot of time and effort to turn temporary into permanent. That’s why it’s uncommon.


I am sure I am not telling you anything you don't already know, so this is for others, even though I am quoting your post, @Openminded.

Not only is sustained change hard, but for victims of SA/CSA, it can be utterly terrifying.

Many victims of such have spent a lifetime white knuckling their way through life while pretending the assault events have not impacted their day to day life. The last thing they want is for a professional to hold a mirror up in front of them. 

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

At some point, when sex is an issue, asking IS hounding. I learnt that directly. I’m not quoting @LATERILUS79 because he’s clearly blocked me. 😊


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

I am generally on the “if she wants it she knows where to find me” plan these days unless I get really horny. This has become slightly more annoying since quitting porn a few days ago. 

She knows I want to have sex every day and could handle 2x a day and whether she does it or not it’s up to her.

Oddly the detachment I had to make a couple years ago to get to the point where I confronted her about it IS permanent at least so far.

Like @LATERILUS79 perhaps but I’m not actively angry or resentful about it. I just saw a world where I am not living with her and decided that world would be ok. As such I am not afraid of it. I slipped up last weekend and mentioned “I would get this…” and she got pissed. She’s like, “WE would get this…” and I’m like yeah whatever…. Once you see that you will be alright doing something else I don’t think it snaps back like a rubber band.


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## Notself (Aug 25, 2017)

In Absentia said:


> At some point, when sex is an issue, asking IS hounding.


That's nothing but an excuse. My first wife used to accuse me of hounding her on the very rare occasions that I would ask for sex (these occasions were rare because I got tired of being rejected).

She would have been much happier if I would have given up on asking for sex completely. I didn't, so she made sure I wouldn't ask anymore through manipulation and gaslighting.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

ccpowerslave said:


> I am generally on the “if she wants it she knows where to find me” plan these days unless I get really horny. This has become slightly more annoying since quitting porn a few days ago.
> 
> She knows I want to have sex every day and could handle 2x a day and whether she does it or not it’s up to her.
> 
> ...


When this happens, it is the most freeing moment...at least in my life.

At first, it was scary. Now? Hey...I love her, but if it doesn't work? Life will still be great. 

This is why men in dead bedrooms need to live life, to a greater or lesser degree, for themselves. 

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Notself said:


> That's nothing but an excuse. My first wife used to accuse me of hounding her on the very rare occasions that I would ask for sex (these occasions were rare because I got tired of being rejected).
> 
> She would have been much happier if I would have given up on asking for sex completely. I didn't, so she made sure I wouldn't ask anymore through manipulation and gaslighting.


This. 

The post you quoted from IA is what happens when one accepts the gaslighting as reality. 

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

In Absentia said:


> That's the worst part, IMO. You don't want sex with your husband anymore, for whatever reason - personal issues, mental issues, body issues, not in love anymore, disappointed in husband, menopause - be honest. Tell your husband.


Agreed. The problem (IMO at least) is selfishness. People aren't willing to accept the consequences of this.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

LATERILUS79 said:


> I have difficulty trusting anything my wife says after this past year of some revelations, and I know a lot more will be coming out this year.


This seems such a sad way to continue a ‘marriage’. I mean if cant trust anything she says how do you know she hasn't been cheating? And waiting for the “lot more coming out”? 

Wouldn’t it be her task to regain your trust? Evidently she failed, and you acknowledge a lot of resentment, which doesn’t help. 

Maybe the reason divorce is so often the end if these things is there is no other viable solution. It is like spending money to fix a car that is a lemon. It will never be reliable transportation, will never be able to really trust it. Might as well take it to junk yard and go try a new ride.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Rus47 said:


> This seems such a sad way to continue a ‘marriage’. I mean if cant trust anything she says how do you know she hasn't been cheating? And waiting for the “lot more coming out”?
> 
> Wouldn’t it be her task to regain your trust? Evidently she failed, and you acknowledge a lot of resentment, which doesn’t help.
> 
> Maybe the reason divorce is so often the end if these things is there is no other viable solution. It is like spending money to fix a car that is a lemon. It will never be reliable transportation, will never be able to really trust it. Might as well take it to junk yard and go try a new ride.


Seems like people get hung up on sunk costs sometimes...


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

farsidejunky said:


> I am sure I am not telling you anything you don't already know, so this is for others, even though I am quoting your post, @Openminded.
> 
> Not only is sustained change hard, but for victims of SA/CSA, it can be utterly terrifying.
> 
> ...


Exactly. I’ve spent a long life ignoring the big fat elephant in the room which is typical, unfortunately, of the way most of us with CSA history tend to handle things. We don’t want to deal with any of that with anyone and that way we can continue pretending it had no impact on us. I was in my 50’s before I told my exH any of my history and even older than that before I could discuss it with anyone else. Lots of us are damaged people, sadly.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

Rus47 said:


> This seems such a sad way to continue a ‘marriage’. I mean if cant trust anything she says how do you know she hasn't been cheating? And waiting for the “lot more coming out”?
> 
> Wouldn’t it be her task to regain your trust? Evidently she failed, and you acknowledge a lot of resentment, which doesn’t help.
> 
> Maybe the reason divorce is so often the end if these things is there is no other viable solution. It is like spending money to fix a car that is a lemon. It will never be reliable transportation, will never be able to really trust it. Might as well take it to junk yard and go try a new ride.


You won’t be getting any disagreement from me, Rus.


curiosity. Overwhelming curiosity.


that, and I do truly love my wife and the family we have together.



I want to see if she can do it. In addition, there are some questions that are “taboo” that I’ve never been able to ask. Things that are on her “not allowed” list. I think the posts by FSJ and Openminded are spot on. I want to give my wife a shot. Maybe she fails - and that is ok. I will however never again feel like I have to stay with someone “damaged” (as Openminded said). I will not allow that guilt to consume me.

the MC is for me as well. I don’t have high expectations, but I’ll be giving it my 100%. My wife really is a remarkable woman. She deserves me to give it my best - and I can tell myself I did everything I could.

But the part of the MC for me is to say things I’ve never been “allowed” to say before. It’s gonna hurt. She is NOT going to like it, but I need to get it off my chest…. For me.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

accidental double post


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

farsidejunky said:


> I am sure I am not telling you anything you don't already know, so this is for others, even though I am quoting your post, @Openminded.
> 
> Not only is sustained change hard, but for victims of SA/CSA, it can be utterly terrifying.
> 
> ...


Not to be circular about this, but if sex is so terrifying then why willingly enter a situation where it's going to be expected regularly?


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

LATERILUS79 said:


> the MC is for me as well. I don’t have high expectations, but I’ll be giving it my 100%. My wife really is a remarkable woman. She deserves me to give it my best - and I can tell myself I did everything I could.
> 
> But the part of the MC for me is to say things I’ve never been “allowed” to say before. It’s gonna hurt. She is NOT going to like it, but I need to get it off my chest…. For me.


Lancing a boil hurts like a mother ****er, too, but is a necessary step to alleviating long term pain and/or damage.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

DTO said:


> Not to be circular about this, but if sex is so terrifying then why willingly enter a situation where it's going to be expected regularly?


Because we all want what we want. 

When I married, I wanted to have a relationship where I didn't have to listen to my spouse vent about her day. Turns out that most women I have dated need that in a relationship (in my own anecdotal experience). It took me years to embrace it, and even longer to understand that I needed to console rather than counsel.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

farsidejunky said:


> Because we all want what we want.
> 
> When I married, I wanted to have a relationship where I didn't have to listen to my spouse vent about her day. Turns out that most women I have dated need that in a relationship (in my own anecdotal experience). It took me years to embrace it, and even longer to understand that I needed to console rather than counsel.


Could be worse. 


My wife would be glad to NEVER speak to you about her day. Ever. In 20 years, I barely know what she does for a job. Who she works with….. anything really. 

Of course, you’d also have to deal with nothing else ever being discussed. It’s funny, both my wife and I are very introverted. We love our alone time. I just have my limits. I do enjoy human contact and the ones that I choose to contact with? It’d be great if they did that in return. 

All I’m saying is that everything is a give and take. People are unfortunately not mix and match with traits. Lol. No modifications. I’d be more than happy to accept hearing my wife vent about her day if that meant she would speak to me about everything else.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

farsidejunky said:


> When this happens, it is the most freeing moment...at least in my life.
> 
> At first, it was scary. Now? Hey...I love her, but if it doesn't work? Life will still be great.
> 
> ...


I think this is a healthy attitude for all. It's never a good idea to feel like you can't live without someone.....thar often has the effect of making one needy and insecure.

I could live just fine without my bf but I love him and want him in my life. As you know I had that attitude with my ex hb too....never occurring to me that I couldn't do fine without him. The question is whether you're happier with them.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

I absolutely don't believe being whining and begging for sex works. I would get in great shape first. If your wife continues to reject you, then I would sit her down and talk about it but explain that sex makes you feel close to her. If she still continues to reject you I would emotionally distance myself, and if she asks I would just say - am starting not to feel close to you anymore. That will work a lot better.

Set your own path see if she follows. Don't beg her to.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

lifeistooshort said:


> I could live just fine without my bf but I love him and want him in my life. As you know I had that attitude with my ex hb too....never occurring to me that I couldn't do fine without him. The question is whether you're happier with them.


Yes. It took me a long time to figure this out because I don’t like failing at anything.

What I came to realize is the real failure is staying in a situation that is bad for you.

As FSJ said once you figure this out then everything is different. Messed up drama and thinking just goes away because you honestly don’t care.

It’s like the day you resign from a job you hate. Having that paper in your hand feels awesome.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Notself said:


> That's nothing but an excuse. My first wife used to accuse me of hounding her on the very rare occasions that I would ask for sex (these occasions were rare because I got tired of being rejected).
> 
> She would have been much happier if I would have given up on asking for sex completely. I didn't, so she made sure I wouldn't ask anymore through manipulation and gaslighting.


I’m not saying it’s right, only that it happens. I didn’t accept it.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

farsidejunky said:


> This.
> 
> The post you quoted from IA is what happens when one accepts the gaslighting as reality.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


unfortunately, lots of men accept it. As I said above, I didn’t and I don’t have a marriage now. Fair enough. Better this way.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

Livvie said:


> Sexually speaking, even way back in high school I could tell, and my friends could tell, when someone of the opposite sex was truly into them or not. My friends and I would talk about guys and sex and dating and relationships and we knew if we were really attracted to a guy, or not, or just going through the dating motions but not really into him. And I had male friends as well and I heard plenty of the same from them! They knew who they were attracted to or not, who they were hooking up with just for sex but not really into, and they could tell which girls really wanted them and which ones just wanted to use them for dates but didn't want to **** them.... but who was harboring a big crush for a guy she couldn't get so she settled for who she could. That's what high school drama is all about. X and Y are dating but X really is hot for Z but Z doesn't want X which is why X is settling for Y and they have lukewarm kisses together. Meanwhile A starts flirting with Y so Y cheats on X with A in the backseat of a car after prom and X and Y have a messy breakup.
> 
> As an adult, you can tell when someone has passion and desire for you and when they don't and when they are repulsed by you and when they aren't. And that has nothing to do with whether your parents shared a bedroom or not.


Likely annoyingly so to fellow TAM members, I've shared memories this week of people and scenarios I've not thought about in years. I recognize this post resides on captain me planet. From what I remember I only really 'dated' one guy in high school and which was short-lived (not the boy mentioned below). And I really had to strain the memory banks to consider when shared interest occurred. The guys I dug from school were extremely few and far between; and while I may have skipped a beat with a couple who liked me, overall my attraction to guys and dating happened _outside_ of school (after I dropped out). It was a very different scenario for me being asked my number and asked out for dates through my hobby or clubbing.

However, just after starting high school I was asked to be someone's girlfriend. I said yes. Lovely person. He'd arranged a date with me for the upcoming weekend. Then I started hearing that he wanted/planned to kiss me on the date. I remember feeling panicked as I had no interest in kissing him. Then recognized I'd only accepted to be his girlfriend as I thought it was what one did upon starting high school. Part of the package was having a boyfriend. I called it off before the weekend. A whopping 4-5 days later. Still, lesson learned. As for drama, there was a guy at school I'd shared chemistry with, yet he was coupled with a girl at school about 2 years, and so kiboshed that feeling. Until I went to a party and they had already broken up. I hadn't seen most of them for over a year (as I'd already left school). Chemistry between us was still there and we snogged/made out. No plans made to date. It was just in the moment. Friends of his ex-girlfriend had a go at me before I left party, saying how upset she was as she wanted to get back with him. I'd been out of the high school drama and so just shrugged it off and suggested it was between them. Another party a few months on, he was there and so was she. I kept my distance from him at first, she stayed cross-armed and away from him most of the night. I was looking for a place to sit when he patted his lap and.... oops I did it again. We didn't attempt to pursue the other. That was the last time I saw him. I bumped into her and her friends at a club a couple years later. Oh boy, did I get the cold shoulder. Eh.

I agree that as an adult, you can tell someone has passion and desire for you. And whether or not you feel that in return / for your spouse. Just as much as recognizing whether it's just a chemistry thing, and doesn't mean it's worthwhile pursuing dating/relationship.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

DTO said:


> Not to be circular about this, but if sex is so terrifying then why willingly enter a situation where it's going to be expected regularly?


I was very young when I married and totally clueless. I had no idea my CSA would affect me in the many ways it did because … wishful thinking, maybe. Actually, I made no connection at all between what happened to me as a child and my life going forward. I was inexperienced in dealing with long relationships and you don’t know what you don’t know, and how you’ll react, until you’re in the middle of it. I’m well aware now though and it’s one of the several reasons I won’t have another relationship (I was married to a serial cheater so my ability to trust is gone and that’s the primary reason I won’t but my CSA is also a big part of why I won’t). I wouldn’t involve someone else in my issues at this point.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

DTO said:


> Agreed. The problem (IMO at least) is selfishness. People aren't willing to accept the consequences of this.


How much is explained simply by a personality that doesn’t feel there should be consequences? To anything? How many of these people have spouses who actually cover for them in other areas of life, to avoid conflict because they act as if there are no consequences?


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

Openminded said:


> I was very young when I married and totally clueless. I had no idea my CSA would affect me in the many ways it did because … wishful thinking, maybe. Actually, I made no connection at all between what happened to me as a child and my life going forward. I was inexperienced in dealing with long relationships and you don’t know what you don’t know, and how you’ll react, until you’re in the middle of it. I’m well aware now though and it’s one of the several reasons I won’t have another relationship (I was married to a serial cheater so my ability to trust is gone and that’s the primary reason I won’t but my CSA is also a big part of why I won’t). I wouldn’t involve someone else in my issues at this point.


How young were you when you dated and then married your ex-husband?

What age do you think you would have realized that you had issues that you didn't want to involve someone else with?


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

LATERILUS79 said:


> How young were you when you dated and then married your ex-husband?
> 
> What age do you think you would have realized that you had issues that you didn't want to involve someone else with?


We were 18 when we met and dated off and on before marrying a couple of years later. Forty-five years later we divorced (my idea; he fought it). I think that had I not married so young, and had more than a couple of relationships as a comparison, I would have not married at all. I had probably only been married a few years when that thought first crossed my mind but I strongly believed in my marriage and I tried very hard for decades to make it work. For several reasons, it never really did. I think many with CSA do their best to not allow it to interfere with their lives but, without help, it usually does.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

I can't imagine why any woman would marry a man she's not attracted to sexually. I got into a relationship like that once when a friend of mine divorced and insisted we get together. I was a broken shell at the time, after a fresh and hurtful breakup with someone I loved and not ready for anything substantial, but I thought, Well, I always hear you should marry your best friend, and he's a good friend, I should at least give it a shot. If I had not been so vulnerable right then, I don't think I would have let that happen. A random occurrence sort of pushed me that way as well when my apartment complex had a gas explosion knocking windows and plumbing out and I had to find someplace to stay fast. So it was that combination of events that gave me what is the biggest regret of my life, dating and pretty much living with a good friend I wasn't sexually excited about. I did think he was physically attractive in a cute way, so it wasn't that. I was just happy with being just friends with him and not comfortable converting over to lover. The sex was mechanical. He was fine but it was mechanical and not passionate. I got out of it first good excuse I had. He had mentioned getting married early on. He couldn't go back to being just friends. So another friend down the drain. That's my biggest regret. 

My advice to men is don't try to convince some women to marry you who isn't gung-ho to begin with. All that stuff about how good you'll be for her may be tempting to some women having a hard time and sound better than what they've had, but if it's not enough for you, don't try to convince them into your arms. You know, women do that too. It never ends well. An old bf of mine that I worked with and still know said why he married his second wife was because she kept telling him how great she'd be for him. 

She cheated on him with another friend of mine and years later ended up charged with identity fraud and credit card fraud for doing that to her own husband and son as well as other people. It was apparent to me she was a total psycho by the way she acted (in public, always literally crying on some man's shoulder trying to get sympathy, and her extreme jealously and also she was a financial nightmare, obviously. She cheated on him but during that fight when he found out, she gave him a black eye, as if getting cheated on wasn't enough, right? Psycho. But she looked good on paper. Don't pay attention to that. Someone needs to be all in.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> My advice to men is don't try to convince some women to marry you who isn't gung-ho to begin with. All that stuff about how good you'll be for her may be tempting to some women having a hard time and sound better than what they've had, but if it's not enough for you, don't try to convince them into your arms. You know, women do that too. It never ends well. An old bf of mine that I worked with and still know said why he married his second wife was because she kept telling him how great she'd be for him.


Good advice. If she wants you, you don't have to be the one to convince her to be with you.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

If someone isn’t sure, the answer is no. Believe in yourself and your value. No one HAS to be with you, they GET to be with you.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

LATERILUS79 said:


> You won’t be getting any disagreement from me, Rus.
> 
> 
> curiosity. Overwhelming curiosity.
> ...


I'm kind of an eternal optimist despite seeing human nature for quite a while.

You guys have history, love and kids. I think you definitely have good odds.

Just a willingness to work on things together and go to MC together is encouraging.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

lifeistooshort said:


> I think this is a healthy attitude for all. It's never a good idea to feel like you can't live without someone.....thar often has the effect of making one needy and insecure.
> 
> I could live just fine without my bf but I love him and want him in my life. As you know I had that attitude with my ex hb too....never occurring to me that I couldn't do fine without him. The question is whether you're happier with them.


Just gotta say I smile a lot more at your situation in life now than I use to. Big improvement.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

Looking good on paper potentially combined with social influence could be a factor for some.

So I guess still in the period of learning lessons, a guy I'd met through a friend tried to court me in more of a traditional sense. He'd leave poetic notes in our mailbox for me, call-in to visit, and would chat with mama hearts. She thought he was great; said he was a gentleman. He was slightly older than me. On paper, would be considered my type. Had that relaxed 'musician' look that was the opposite to clean-cut. Thoughtful and creative personality. Rocked the slightly grunge/rough exterior then sit at the piano and play elaborate classical pieces off by heart. And I just wasn't feeling it with him. Mama hearts didn't meet many guys of potential interest, and certainly wouldn't push me to date or settle-down, but with him she encouraged me to accept a date with him. I was resistive; shared with some older 'peers' at the time and surprisingly they also encouraged me to accept the date but for different (and not upstanding) reasons. Anyway, after several attempts from him, I did finally agree to go on a date and mostly as a result of encouragement by mama hearts. I wasn't feeling the chemistry - and felt that he was trying too hard, which turned me off. Still, what's one date. While out, he tried to feed me the froth from his hot drink or something and I didn't accept his spoon, told him that I had my own. Ouch, maybe? but I couldn't fake it and wasn't smooth about it either. Really, I just shouldn't have accepted. Somehow we did establish a type of mutual rapport afterwards, with dating off the table. It's weird to think of an alternate universe if I'd made myself go along with him as a potential boyfriend based on mama hearts' fondness of him and looking good on paper. For a different take, when Batman and I went on our first date, it extended from lunch right through to evening and past dinner. He fed me strawberries, and I ate them slowly and flirtatiously.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

DownByTheRiver said:


> I can't imagine why any woman would marry a man she's not attracted to sexually. I got into a relationship like that once when a friend of mine divorced and insisted we get together. I was a broken shell at the time, after a fresh and hurtful breakup with someone I loved and not ready for anything substantial, but I thought, Well, I always hear you should marry your best friend, and he's a good friend, I should at least give it a shot. If I had not been so vulnerable right then, I don't think I would have let that happen. A random occurrence sort of pushed me that way as well when my apartment complex had a gas explosion knocking windows and plumbing out and I had to find someplace to stay fast. So it was that combination of events that gave me what is the biggest regret of my life, dating and pretty much living with a good friend I wasn't sexually excited about. I did think he was physically attractive in a cute way, so it wasn't that. I was just happy with being just friends with him and not comfortable converting over to lover. The sex was mechanical. He was fine but it was mechanical and not passionate. I got out of it first good excuse I had. He had mentioned getting married early on. He couldn't go back to being just friends. So another friend down the drain. That's my biggest regret.
> 
> My advice to men is don't try to convince some women to marry you who isn't gung-ho to begin with. All that stuff about how good you'll be for her may be tempting to some women having a hard time and sound better than what they've had, but if it's not enough for you, don't try to convince them into your arms. You know, women do that too. It never ends well. An old bf of mine that I worked with and still know said why he married his second wife was because she kept telling him how great she'd be for him.
> 
> She cheated on him with another friend of mine and years later ended up charged with identity fraud and credit card fraud for doing that to her own husband and son as well as other people. It was apparent to me she was a total psycho by the way she acted (in public, always literally crying on some man's shoulder trying to get sympathy, and her extreme jealously and also she was a financial nightmare, obviously. She cheated on him but during that fight when he found out, she gave him a black eye, as if getting cheated on wasn't enough, right? Psycho. But she looked good on paper. Don't pay attention to that. Someone needs to be all in.


I think there has been a lot of bad information disseminated about men having to pursue and win women.

I remember seeing a bunch of movies in the 80's with the theme of a persistent man eventually winning the woman and I was always revulsed (might have made that up) at the concept.

I never could fathom being interested in a woman that showed no interest in me.

I was even worse though and I never even cared about pursuing women to begin with. They were kind of annoying and got in the way of too many plans.😉

Mrs. C kind of messed up everything. Thank God.😋


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

heartsbeating said:


> Looking good on paper potentially combined with social influence could be a factor for some.
> 
> So I guess still in the period of learning lessons, a guy I'd met through a friend tried to court me in more of a traditional sense. He'd leave poetic notes in our mailbox for me, call-in to visit, and would chat with mama hearts. She thought he was great; said he was a gentleman. He was slightly older than me. On paper, would be considered my type. Had that relaxed 'musician' look that was the opposite to clean-cut. Thoughtful and creative personality. Rocked the slightly grunge/rough exterior then sit at the piano and play elaborate classical pieces off by heart. And I just wasn't feeling it with him. Mama hearts didn't meet many guys of potential interest, and certainly wouldn't push me to date or settle-down, but with him she encouraged me to accept a date with him. I was resistive; shared with some older 'peers' at the time and surprisingly they also encouraged me to accept the date but for different (and not upstanding) reasons. Anyway, after several attempts from him, I did finally agree to go on a date and mostly as a result of encouragement by mama hearts. I wasn't feeling the chemistry - and felt that he was trying too hard, which turned me off. Still, what's one date. While out, he tried to feed me the froth form his hot drink or something and I didn't accept his spoon, told him that I had my own. Ouch, maybe? but I couldn't fake it and wasn't smooth about it either. Really, I just shouldn't have accepted. Somehow we did establish a type of mutual rapport afterwards, with dating off the table. It's weird to think of an alternate universe if I'd made myself go along with him as a potential boyfriend based on mama hearts' fondness of him and looking good on paper. For a different take, when Batman and I went on our first date, it extended from lunch right through to evening and past dinner. He fed me strawberries, and I ate them slowly and flirtatiously.


I enjoy reading your posts. Something about you..... it is so normal for you to say "dating Batman" and mama hearts.  I find it all so fascinating. 

I have no idea who these people are, so I just go with what my mind created. The caped crusader showed up to your house to take you on a date ( cue 1989 Batman music when the door opens) and a person dressed up in a mascot outfit shaped like a massive heart stood their upset since you didn't go out with the tryhard musician. Of course, you couldn't tell that the mama hearts was upset. There's no face to this heart mascot costume. You just kinda had to know of mama hearts disapproval.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

ConanHub said:


> I think there has been a lot of bad information disseminated about men having to pursue and win women.
> 
> I remember seeing a bunch of movies in the 80's with the theme of a persistent man eventually winning the woman and I was always revulsed (might have made that up) at the concept.
> 
> ...


My wife hid behind the bushes of the engineering buildings because she followed me around on campus. 

One time I bumped into her on "accident". Super dense me says, "oh hey! Fancy meeting you here! What you doing on this side of campus? Aren't all of your classes on the opposite side of campus?"

Wife: huh? What? Hey, it's lunchtime. Wanna go to the food court to get some lunch? 

Me: not a bad idea. I could eat. 




Took me about 4 months of dating before I realized these "accidents" were on purpose.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

LATERILUS79 said:


> I enjoy reading your posts. Something about you..... it is so normal for you to say "dating Batman" and mama hearts.  I find it all so fascinating.


I appreciated the word 'fascinating'  rather than probably some more justifiable words that could be used!



LATERILUS79 said:


> I have no idea who these people are, so I just go with what my mind created. The caped crusader showed up to your house to take you on a date ( cue 1989 Batman music when the door opens) and a person dressed up in a mascot outfit shaped like a massive heart stood their upset since you didn't go out with the tryhard musician. Of course, you couldn't tell that the mama hearts was upset. There's no face to this heart mascot costume. You just kinda had to know of mama hearts disapproval.


This made me laugh!

Although to clarify, mama hearts was very accustomed to me walking my own walk... generally encouraged it too. And so, I wouldn't say there was disapproval that I didn't take up with the musician after that attempted date. When Batman came onto the scene, and she recognized what was occurring between us, she was very supportive. Granted, we've all had our moments, but she appreciates what we bring to one another.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

heartsbeating said:


> I appreciated the word 'fascinating'  rather than probably some more justifiable words that could be used!
> 
> 
> This made me laugh!
> ...


Excellent. Mystery still secured. 

I'm gonna assume mama hearts is your mother and Batman is your husband. At least I don't know the origin story of how they got these unique names.  

I'm glad mama hearts eventually approved of Batman.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Excellent. Mystery still secured.
> 
> I'm gonna assume mama hearts is your mother and Batman is your husband. At least I don't know the origin story of how they got these unique names.
> 
> I'm glad mama hearts eventually approved of Batman.


Correct.

Mama hearts is me just having fun with it. Batman is that I do affectionately call my husband that at home - although not as frequently as I refer to him here. More like, 'Good thinking, Batman!' Or 'Good job, Batman!' and 'Ready, Batman?' that kind of thing. And I know he digs it; it's just playful. In the context of the forum, it's that I got bored writing 'H' or 'Hubs' and don't want to use his real name. Although I question that it may possibly feel annoying to some, I don't know. Admittedly, nor do I really care.

As for mama hearts, she liked him from the start yet there were some cultural differences that were unique for her to experience and become accustomed to. Like I said though, she saw very quickly that we were falling hard for one another and supported that. Even when there was a chance that he'd go back to his home country, she encouraged to just enjoy what we had while we had it. Although he made the decision not to return, as he liked what was unfolding between us and didn't want to potentially lose that. I didn't suggest that he stay; felt it was too big of an ask. Anyway, so that's what's up with the names.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

Sorry and now back to the topic at hand....


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

hamadryad said:


> A lot of people like to say men are all visual, but that doesn't mean women are blind and stupid...And if you want your woman to want you sexually, make sure you are ****able in the first place...
> 
> I'll say it again....You pick someone(this is a man or woman, btw) and you aren't paying attention to sexual attraction, then do so at your own peril..


Amen.

To add, although I do think your point is valid as it stands, being ****able encompasses various traits and characteristics too.

If someone presents well appearance wise etc but is generally a d-head to be around, that's not particularly ****able in my books. Applies to men and women and those yet to decide. Now I just got my mind in a weird mix though, as if someone is being a d-head and displaying un****ableness then surely it's also on one to address that too. Otherwise resentment sinks in, from both sides, and then distance... anyway, I get your point though and glad it's raised. Also made me think about what another wise poster has shared here before about essentially ensuring one is a good lover, too.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

sokillme said:


> I absolutely don't believe being whining and begging for sex works. I would get in great shape first. If your wife continues to reject you, then I would sit her down and talk about it but explain that sex makes you feel close to her. If she still continues to reject you I would emotionally distance myself, and if she asks I would just say - am starting not to feel close to you anymore. That will work a lot better.
> 
> Set your own path see if she follows. Don't beg her to.


Pretty much agree but I cut to the chase the one time Mrs. C started trying to control the quantity and the timing of our sex life due to the influence of some dried up church ladies.

I basically told her I was going to be having sex with someone and I had chosen her for that role but if she decided she didn't want that role anymore that I would have no problems finding any number of women who would though I didn't want it to be anyone else, I would move on.

Mrs. C decided to take me to bed immediately and proceeded to try to render me unconscious.

The church ladies became history that instant and we haven't had a blip, on her part, since.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

hamadryad said:


> Ill be honest....the couple of guys I know in that situations have just got what they needed out on the street...truth is, I don't blame them....
> 
> And you know what the funniest part of that aspect is?
> 
> ...


I'm convinced women are more visual.

I know Mrs. Conan is.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

ConanHub said:


> I think there has been a lot of bad information disseminated about men having to pursue and win women.
> 
> I remember seeing a bunch of movies in the 80's with the theme of a persistent man eventually winning the woman and I was always revulsed (might have made that up) at the concept.
> 
> ...


You're absolutely right. All those movies going way back with the goofy guy pursuing and getting the perfect hot girl. I mean it's the male version of Cinderella. Neither one of those models did people any good in real life. 

That kind of persistence usually just scares women and creeps them out or makes them feel sorry for the guy, and the ones who don't run from it are probably just out to take advantage of you. 

If it's that much work, it's not love and it's not going to work out long term.


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## Luckylucky (Dec 11, 2020)

I want to address something about this ‘settling’ for the good man and good woman when it comes to marriage that was common in that original post, and the comments.

Let’s be honest, most of us have felt raging passion for the bad boy and the hot chick that is loads of fun on big night out. But how many of us really want that type of person mothering our kids? Or having kids with the stud who is going to still drink and party every weekend?? Not many?

I don’t think it’s a bad thing to want a stable partner!! But it is a huge problem for the man and woman who later say, he/she was not my physical type at all, I just don’t feel that desire! Well, these people are desirable people with passions too, that usually fall into a sad heap, because it’s only their partners that aren’t seeing them as desirable and sexy and fascinating!! The problem is really the person who avoids their partner sexually or emotionally. We’ve got to start putting that back on them, we have to. They are the boring people. To me, if you cannot understand that a stable person with good qualities can’t be a sexually attractive being as well as being stable and kind, how are they so unattractive if it’s YOU not wanting to have sex?? Ladies, why didn’t the bad boy want to put a ring on it?? Or why didn’t you trust him enough to father you kids? And men, why didn’t you want the hotty who doesn’t cook for a wife?

See the sex appeal in the stable women and men you settled for, because of the people that I know personally who are being denied sex and desire, I can’t really say the partners are bores and passionless at all. In fact, they’re insipid sometimes socially! And their partners seem to be the life of the party while their ‘settlers’ are off flirting or sulking when their formerly boring partners that they just don’t enjoy having sex with.

Just give a group of kids a bunch of plain paper and scissors and glue. Some of those kids will get mad and want something else to play with, how boring and safe! Some kids will roll up their sleeves and see the possibilities.
It’s not a problem to settle, it’s ok.
But seriously don’t give me that bull about them just not doing it for you 15-20 years into a marriage. Because plenty of others would do them and actively fantasise about it. The blame lies solely with the person who trapped them, and laments how trapped they are. What’s stopping you from letting someone else bang them while you do go after that coworker or ex who is so much more your type? ‘The ow or OM is vibrant and just gets me!’ So easy to talk to!’

What type of a lover can you be if you can’t even do it as a wife or husband? You better be a brilliant conversationalist for the rest of your life, because sooner or later the man/woman you’re married to is going to realise you’re not much of an interesting and passionate person as you think you are.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

Luckylucky said:


> I want to address something about this ‘settling’ for the good man and good woman when it comes to marriage that was common in that original post, and the comments.
> 
> Let’s be honest, most of us have felt raging passion for the bad boy and the hot chick that is loads of fun on big night out. But how many of us really want that type of person mothering our kids? Or having kids with the stud who is going to still drink and party every weekend?? Not many?
> 
> ...


I love your energy in this post. Feels full of gusto!

I'm letting it absorb... although a bit conflicted about the terms 'settle' and 'stability' being interchangeable. Maybe this is just how I personally assign meaning in the context of relationships though. To me, without dictionary definitions, to 'settle' for a spouse typically has a negative connotation of 'making do'. I guess it could also be interpreted as recognizing there's enough compatibility to make it work. And then if someone isn't the other's physical type and that's an aspect that is of importance to the person, and they know it is but hood-wink themselves for whatever reason, then they're just doing a disservice to themselves and their potential future spouse. Sure, looks fade, life happens, unexpected health aspects crop up and so I get that appearance is not the be-all-and-all. Plus, the desirable, sexy, and fascinating does also extend through other aspects of being beyond the surface. I'm starting to confuse myself. Mostly though, when I come across the word 'settle' it has a negative meaning. I'm happy to be challenged on this / have my view expanded. Connecting the term 'stability' in the relationship context, for me basically conjures meaning of consistency and kind of interlinks then with having each others back. And so I consider stability as a positive for relationships. I'm no particular hottie, but he did want me despite not cooking. Maybe he settled ;p From here, I'll let your words marinade a bit more.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

LATERILUS79 said:


> She actually didn't understand why I was pissed off when she told me one time last year that she's been spending lots of time in IC talking about our kids. WTF. I told her that isn't the time to be discussing our children. That is the time for you to be learning about yourself and confronting your demons.


This is why I am always sceptical of IC for people with relationship problems. There is no way for the partner to know whether they are doing the work in their sessions or not.


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## theloveofmylife (Jan 5, 2021)

I think it's wrong to simply use people. That blog content is just another example of it IMO. 

A dead bedroom, no matter which one killed it, causes harm to the neglected partner. It's painful and constant rejection can destroy a person's self-esteem. It's very selfish, especially if someone is doing it intentionally - rather than a messed up situation and trying to work on it. 

Very sad that some actually seem to be bragging about it.



LATERILUS79 said:


> I don't hound her for sex. I ask. When I get rejected, I walk away. If she accepts, we have sex. It really is as simple as that.


I get that there are issues here, but this caught my attention.

I don't think asking is particularly attractive. What if you just start something instead? She can still say no or yes. Or, what if you get her motor running in the morning and keep that going all day to build tension then "take her" (obviously not by force) that night? 

Women get bored too. We want to feel passion, desire, etc. "Hey, it's been 9 days, how about it?" is more likely to make her feel defensive than hot. Instead, why not slide up behind her, gently move her hair, start slowly kissing her neck (or w/e works for her), and see what happens?


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

theloveofmylife said:


> I think it's wrong to simply use people. That blog content is just another example of it IMO.
> 
> A dead bedroom, no matter which one killed it, causes harm to the neglected partner. It's painful and constant rejection can destroy a person's self-esteem. It's very selfish, especially if someone is doing it intentionally - rather than a messed up situation and trying to work on it.
> 
> ...


Not going to get into it as I don’t feel like talking about this. 


You’ll have to take my word for it. What you are describing here is not allowed by my wife.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Not going to get into it as I don’t feel like talking about this.
> 
> 
> You’ll have to take my word for it. What you are describing here is not allowed by my wife.


Not trying to get more information. I've got a good enough picture. I'm really starting to comprehend your situation and I'm astounded.

Still hoping for a good outcome for you both but I don't disagree with your position at all and you definitely have more patience and restraint than me.

I hope she realizes what she has and does the work necessary to keep you.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

sokillme said:


> I absolutely don't believe being whining and begging for sex works. I would get in great shape first. If your wife continues to reject you, then I would sit her down and talk about it but explain that sex makes you feel close to her. If she still continues to reject you I would emotionally distance myself, and if she asks I would just say - am starting not to feel close to you anymore. That will work a lot better.
> 
> Set your own path see if she follows. Don't beg her to.


I wonder how to reverse this process for women in dead bedrooms. Because I don't believe the reasons for male sexlessness are the same as reasons for female sexlessness...for the most part.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

theloveofmylife said:


> A dead bedroom, no matter which one killed it, causes harm to the neglected partner. It's painful and constant rejection can destroy a person's self-esteem.* It's very selfish, especially if someone is doing it intentionally - rather than a messed up situation and trying to work on it.*


Treating another person this way is just evil. Full stop. When they could just end things, they continue their evil deceit. The women bragging they aren't "into" their husband of years. Just evil. Hopefully the karma shows up on their doorstep.

The key IMO is to not tolerate a "dead bedroom" for more than a very short time ( 2 weeks? ) without demanding a full accounting. The mistake is for people (of either gender) to allow this to continue without solving the problem. There is one thread on here where the husband hasn't been "into" his wife for 8 years, then wonders why she has lost interest in him. She should have dumped him before two months had gone by.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

LisaDiane said:


> I wonder how to reverse this process for women in dead bedrooms. Because I don't believe the reasons for male sexlessness are the same as reasons for female sexlessness...for the most part.


So if the advice is:

Identify and stop unattractive behaviors
Become more physically attractive
Look at areas where you are not meeting your partner’s needs and try meeting them
Stop pursuing, create a bit of distance
Figure out if your partner is not enjoying sex for medical reasons (pain, not reaching orgasm, drug interactions) and seek medical advice
Learn about responsive versus spontaneous desire and figure out if your initiations are not right for your partner
Once you have tried the self-help steps above and have completed the distancing then discuss the problem with the expectation that it gets better or you’re done
I think all of them pretty much apply to either sex. 

The issue is that for a lot of situations they simply will not fix the dead bedroom and they can be shut down at any time.

There are many cases here where the withholder will not admit to a physical issue like ED. They won’t admit to a mental issue like CSA, depression, etc…. They won’t see a physician to adjust treatment, drugs, etc…. They won’t see a physician to adjust birth control or other drug interactions that can cause issues like BP meds. They might not even admit these problems to their partner.

It’s not going to help with someone who has already written you off and straight up doesn’t even like you. They’ve already separated in the bedroom and also emotionally and they’re likely there for other reasons which could be financial, child related, or sheer laziness. There’s a thread now I’d probably classify this way.

So really that advice above I think there’s a very narrow set of conditions where it could work.

The point of the self improvement steps is so that when it doesn’t work you’re in a good place when you leave.

If the steps are yielding results I think there’s a further wrinkle in that how exactly do you apply them? If you’re going to create distance, how exactly do you do that in a way that is actually productive? It’s not that easy and it takes trial and error. 

Right now I am not actively trying to push and pull with my wife and I haven’t been for several months; however I think my techniques now are very refined such that I can make tiny changes and that is enough for her to react.

The biggest thing for my wife at least is to LISTEN to what she is saying then TAKE IT AT FACE VALUE and TRUST it. Then I do this and I TRUST she will come to me.

This is an individual thing and I think it applies exactly to her; however who knows maybe it also applies to other women and some men.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

I've said it before in other threads....."Dead bedrooms' are often unavoidable, because I don't believe it's "normal" to have one sex partner for an eternity....It's not something the Creator designed to drive us all nuts(even though it does feel that way at times), all He wanted to do is make sure we can survive and multiply enough and with enough genetic diversity, to maintain our species...

In essence, what seems like a "problem" is merely your/their biological instinct kicking in...I get that it's not what the conventional societal norms have outlined for us, but my feeling is that if you have a weak desire early on, then you will be doomed....You will never be able to keep that going, and will always have problems...Even if you never stray, the sex you have will be no more that duty type of stuff designed not to drive you crazy or cause you economic ruin or a feeling of failure for breaking up the kids and marriage.....Make matters worse, if you are the type that draws attention from the opposite sex on a regular basis, your will is going to be tested to a degree that a lot cannot resist.. we all see this on a daily basis....

Yes, women that pick the so called "beta providers" are in fact dooming both themselves and their partners....They think that they can pull it off, and I am sure some can fake it long enough to last a lifetime, but its a hell of a way to live the only life you are granted on this planet...


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Oh also duh I forgot about the OP. It doesn’t matter how you apply the above plan, in this case the partner was NEVER physically attracted.

Do you even want to fix a dead bedroom where the partner is having to do a mental exercise to disassociate from the situation to even have sex? I wouldn’t.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

I finally read through a bunch of the comments on that article. It is so disgusting. I can't believe how many knew they had no sexual attraction for the man, but married them anyway. And even went on to have multiple children with them. A lot were applauded as being brave. That is laughable, they are pure cowards that don't want to give up thier comfy life. There were even some that are not yet married and even after reading all of that crap they are still considering marrying the person they aren't attracted to. All of those women are actually betraying their spouses. 

This makes me wonder how much the typical advice of making yourself attractive and desirable as a fix for a dead bedroom will actually work. I think that will work if there is some minimal spark there, but what if it turns out their spouse was never attracted to them. I don't think you can ever overcome that.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

BigDaddyNY said:


> This makes me wonder how much the typical advice of making yourself attractive and desirable as a fix for a dead bedroom will actually work. I think that will work if there is some minimal spark there, but what if it turns out their spouse was never attracted to them. I don't think you can ever overcome that.


That’s it.

I think the stock advice can help when initially (ideally for a period of years) there are no sexual issues. High frequency, high quality, everyone is happy.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

..


BigDaddyNY said:


> This makes me wonder how much the typical advice of making yourself attractive and desirable as a fix for a dead bedroom will actually work. *I think that will work if there is some minimal spark there, but what if it turns out their spouse was never attracted to them. I don't think you can ever overcome that.*


......well...they can do what poor Forrest Gump did....wait until she is broke, has a deadly disease, and no options....Then she'll be there for them....sex and all...

All kidding aside...If the sexual attraction isn't _very strong_ from the start, the chances of it lasting a couple of years, let alone an eternity, is almost nil...


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> This makes me wonder how much the typical advice of making yourself attractive and desirable as a fix for a dead bedroom will actually work. I think that will work if there is some minimal spark there, but what if it turns out their spouse was never attracted to them. I don't think you can ever overcome that.


I think the advice to stay attractive relates mire to a spouse who becomes sloppy after marriage. Someone who gained a lot of weight and lays around playing video games.

But, there was a thread where guy decided HE was going to become the OM. And it worked. Decades ago I decided at one point to “spice things”. Reduced my BMI, built muscles, grew a beard. It worked.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> I finally read through a bunch of the comments on that article. It is so disgusting. I can't believe how many knew they had no sexual attraction for the man, but married them anyway. And even went on to have multiple children with them. A lot were applauded as being brave. That is laughable, they are pure cowards that don't want to give up thier comfy life. There were even some that are not yet married and even after reading all of that crap they are still considering marrying the person they aren't attracted to. All of those women are actually betraying their spouses.
> 
> This makes me wonder how much the typical advice of making yourself attractive and desirable as a fix for a dead bedroom will actually work. I think that will work if there is some minimal spark there, but what if it turns out their spouse was never attracted to them. I don't think you can ever overcome that.


There is that one thing…..

So, I’m gonna say this even if it gets my head torn off. 

Some women (not all) want what other women have. You can see this when it comes to men that get many women. If a woman sees something that another woman has, a lot of times she is now interested. A man she might not have been interested in is now interesting to her because some other woman (who she compares herself to) is interested in him. 

Again. Not all women. I wouldn’t even say most - but I will say a significant number. 

I can see a wife who has her husband in a dead bedroom become interested in him again. Not because of the new muscles from working out, but because other women are interested in his muscles.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Rus47 said:


> I think the advice to stay attractive relates mire to a spouse who becomes sloppy after marriage. Someone who gained a lot of weight and lays around playing video games.
> 
> But, there was a thread where guy decided HE was going to become the OM. And it worked. Decades ago I decided at one point to “spice things”. Reduced my BMI, built muscles, grew a beard. It worked.


Funny you mention that. Our sex life never died out, but a few years ago I decided wanted more and made changes to myself, including all three you listed. Yep, it worked for me too.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Funny you mention that. Our sex life never died out, but a few years ago I decided wanted more and made changes to myself, including all three you listed. Yep, it worked for me too.


Lol. Some like the beard. Some don’t. I’ve had a beard now for a year and don’t like it - but it did increase my weekly average.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

LATERILUS79 said:


> There is that one thing…..
> 
> So, I’m gonna say this even if it gets my head torn off.
> 
> ...


Definitely truth in this. I've witnessed it myself. I can't say that I've seen it happen to my wife on the occasion of another woman obviously showing interest in me, other than making it obvious to the other person that I was hers. However, early on in our relationship there were women/girls that previously showed no interest in me romantically or sexually, but suddenly became all flirty and touchy when they learned I had a steady GF. Pretty bad behavior now that I look back on it.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Laurentium said:


> This is why I am always sceptical of IC for people with relationship problems. There is no way for the partner to know whether they are doing the work in their sessions or not.


If the therapist fires them, you have a clue about it.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Funny you mention that. Our sex life never died out, but a few years ago I decided wanted more and made changes to myself, including all three you listed. Yep, it worked for me too.


IMO, partners need to ‘stay engaged’. My wife noticed, and knew I was changing to remain attractive to HER alone. Our intimacy was always robust, but it went into overdrive.

My wife has always kept herself up. She never gained weight even after four kids.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

Rus47 said:


> I think the advice to stay attractive relates mire to a spouse who becomes sloppy after marriage. Someone who gained a lot of weight and lays around playing video games.



I don't know a fraction of everything there is to know about women and if there was a manual, it would stack higher than Kilimanjaro, but I do know one thing that is seemingly fool proof...Nothing seems to attract women more to a man, than attraction/attention from other women....


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Lol. Some like the beard. Some don’t. I’ve had a beard now for a year and don’t like it - but it did increase my weekly average.


Oh, my wife always said she didnt like beard. Until I grew one. Then she thought it was wonderful.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Definitely truth in this. I've witnessed it myself. I can't say that I've seen it happen to my wife on the occasion of another woman obviously showing interest in me, other than making it obvious to the other person that I was hers. However, early on in our relationship there were women/girls that previously showed no interest in me romantically or sexually, but suddenly became all flirty and touchy when they learned I had a steady GF. Pretty bad behavior now that I look back on it.


Exactly. So you understand what I’m getting at here. 

I see this behavior manifest itself in the type of woman that will cheat as well. You always worry about the friends. How many infidelity stories are from women where their co-workers or friends use peer pressure to get their friends to cheat? And it’s mostly done by their single friends. Personally, I think the single friends can’t stand it that one of their friends have a happy marriage so they help sabotage it because that is what the single friend wants. They see something they don’t have that another woman has and they want it. 

Thankfully, most women are not like this, but the whole “I want what that woman has” can manifest in the worst possible way.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

ConanHub said:


> Not trying to get more information. I've got a good enough picture. I'm really starting to comprehend your situation and I'm astounded.
> 
> Still hoping for a good outcome for you both but I don't disagree with your position at all and you definitely have more patience and restraint than me.
> 
> I hope she realizes what she has and does the work necessary to keep you.


CHub, I very much appreciate you saying this. Thank you. 

Patience at this point is extremely difficult. The best I can plan for is to make sure I stay calm and don’t “explode” with a flood of everything I want to say in MC. It needs to be regulated as best as I can. I love my wife dearly and I want to give it the best possible chance of working. Exploding on her just shuts her down even worse. 

The more I’ve woken up over the past 5 years (and especially over the past 15 months and then all I’ve learned from TAM), the more I’ve personally realized that I am in the high quality man bracket. Not as bragging - but as just a fact when I look at the competition. It just was never in front of my face before. I only concentrated on my wife - and trusted everything she’s ever said to me.

I’ve asked on many occasions for her to come here and read. There are specific women here I want her to speak to. She won’t. She turns me down every time. 

It really hit me yesterday when I read @farsidejunky’s comment. The last thing my wife wants is for the mirror to be turned on her. It was like a punch to the face when I read that. 😂. I think my wife knows what we have is not “normal”. I think she knows she hides from everything and won’t face it. The last thing she wants is to read things here or speak with people here that will point out exactly what the problem is - even though deep down she already knows; she just doesn’t want that mirror in front of her. Way too difficult to avoid when that happens.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Rus47 said:


> Oh, my wife always said she didnt like beard. Until I grew one. Then she thought it was wonderful.


LOL, that is EXACTLY my wife. She always said she didn't like beards and always gave me a hard time if I started to get a little scruffy. Then I used no shave November as an excuse to grow it out. I've kept it ever since and she can't keep her hand off of it!


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

I already had the beard. Still have the beard.

I just upped my game with the trimming and shaving. Shave every day, 6mm clippers, sharp scissors for touch ups. I keep it right keep it tight.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

LATERILUS79 said:


> There is that one thing…..
> 
> So, I’m gonna say this even if it gets my head torn off.
> 
> ...


This has been observed and I read about it in the book "What do Women Want?" By Daniel Bergner.

A regular woman with a couple of kids and a good husband that she loved, lost her mojo after many years married.

He was active in the kids lives and helped coach sports 

She showed up in the middle of a game and got the opportunity to see her husband in action from a distance and how others appreciated him, including one of the other mom's.😉

Her arousal came back and she went to mark her territory.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

LATERILUS79 said:


> I can see a wife who has her husband in a dead bedroom become interested in him again. Not because of the new muscles from working out, but because other women are interested in his muscles.


This is true, however I wonder if it applies to both sexes? Like if your wife did something to become more attractive and was drawing additional attraction from other men would that make you want her more?

Hard to say because I already want her. So wanting her “more” isn’t a concept that I really grasp as I will have sex with her now at the drop of a hat.

I have observed that if I am talking to women in her presence and they obviously like what I am saying she does react to it and usually later on that day/evening it works out in my favor.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

ccpowerslave said:


> This is true, however I wonder if it applies to both sexes? Like if your wife did something to become more attractive and was drawing additional attraction from other men would that make you want her more?
> 
> Hard to say because I already want her. So wanting her “more” isn’t a concept that I really grasp as I will have sex with her now at the drop of a hat.
> 
> I have observed that if I am talking to women in her presence and they obviously like what I am saying she does react to it and usually later on that day/evening it works out in my favor.


I’m sure this happens to some men. Could it happen to me? I don’t know. Maybe with my wife? I mean, I’ve seen plenty of women in my past that many men were attracted to that just didn’t do it for me. I wouldn’t find this particular woman attractive or interesting. 

In my opinion, I think this hits women more often than men, but I don’t know. This is just what I’ve observed.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

It may be the male response is different. If some guy was obviously drooling over my wife in an obnoxious way I would tell him to piss off unless he looked like he was packing in which case I’d drag us out of there.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

ccpowerslave said:


> This is true, however I wonder if it applies to both sexes? Like if your wife did something to become more attractive and was drawing additional attraction from other men would that make you want her more?
> 
> Hard to say because I already want her. So wanting her “more” isn’t a concept that I really grasp as I will have sex with her now at the drop of a hat.
> 
> I have observed that if I am talking to women in her presence and they obviously like what I am saying she does react to it and usually later on that day/evening it works out in my favor.


I think it does. Seeing your spouse from a little distance and when they are doing something they are good at while being interacted with and appreciated by others, allows a healthy reaction.

Mrs. C and have had some rough patches where I definitely wasn't appreciating her.

During one, I had the opportunity to see gentleman that didn't know we were married, interact with her and they were very charmed and charming.

It took me back a bit and allowed me to see her from a little distance and that she was a better woman than what I was treating her like.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> Just gotta say I smile a lot more at your situation in life now than I use to. Big improvement.


Thank you 😊 

It's had for me to believe that 3 1/2 years have passed since my divorce. I no longer have to walk on eggshells shells for fear of making his highness uncomfortable..

It's hard to accept that one of you is a square peg and the other is a round hole but sometimes that's the case and you waste precious time of your life until you accept it.


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

ccpowerslave said:


> I already had the beard. Still have the beard.
> 
> I just upped my game with the trimming and shaving. Shave every day, 6mm clippers, sharp scissors for touch ups. I keep it right keep it tight.


I do the same thing with all my body hair.  

TMI? Maybe so?


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

LisaDiane said:


> I wonder how to reverse this process for women in dead bedrooms. Because I don't believe the reasons for male sexlessness are the same as reasons for female sexlessness...for the most part.


Yeah that is the hard part. From a man's point of view you can try to become more overtly sexual with him, however I understand this is easier said then done for a lot of people. Also depending on the Man that may just be too much for him. Also if it's a big switch it may cause him to become suspicious. I do think this post works for women too though even though it's from the women's point of view. For the husbands point of view on the other end of the discussion, their biggest problem is who they married. In the same way many of wives in dead bedroom situations, they also have no hope. Part of why I posted this the point is the same, in many cases it's too late. It's like I always say 85% of the success of your marriage comes down to who you marry. So much is based on the picking stage. You get someone who isn't into sex or isn't attracted to you (assuming you are in reasonable shape and put some effort into being attractive) then there is no hope. Again that was my point.

That being said, no matter what the media tells you male and female sexuality is different, particularly if you are talking long term relationships. I think it's not a different in all the areas we were used to be led to believe, for instance women's sexuality is much more appearance driven then popular media tells us. The Woody Allen's of the world are not ending up with women falling all over them but it's still different in other way. It's one of the reasons why I always tell guys here that you have to make your wife feel emotionally safe. But I would say for women, if you do feel safe he will feel closer to you if you are adventurous and really open up that side of your nature to him, assuming your nature is not about other men (though now a days?).

I personally believe the biggest part of it is intimacy but that is where we are very different.

Men are taught to be guarded emotionally, so because of that women put a premium on their man opening up and exposing that side of themselves with them. That becomes a special side of themselves that the wives hope only they have access too. If you read my posts I talk about this all the time. I don't recommend being emotional, but I do recommend being able to talk about your emotions, particularly when it comes to her. I recommend trying to connect with her emotionally and making her feel safe. You need to pay attention and actively work at this. Meaning if you know she has a big day a work or has a big project. Get up early, clean off her car, make her coffee and have it ready. It's not even the actions, it's showing you were paying attention. It's being vulnerable enough to every once and a while show her you are dependent on her support (at times - NOT ALL THE TIME) emotionally. Lot's of women love this way.

It also means that she needs to feel safe emotionally. What that doesn't mean is always agreeing with her or avoiding conflict. Sometimes making someone feel safe is saying in an appropriate way, what you are doing here is a mistake, or this isn't fair to me. An emotionally honest relationship, as long as it's not combative is a safe one. In that respect you can't be yelling over frustrations, you can call out actions but you shouldn't call her names. You can't use her vulnerability against her later on. Better to say how it affects you then to say how you feel all the time, or at least say how it affects you and that is WHY you feel the way you do. Don't blow all your money on some toy. Include her in your life.

In the same respect women (in general, at least for a very long time) are taught to be guarded sexually, so likewise men put a premium on them opening up and exposing that side of themselves. Which may mean going outside of your comfort zone as long as it's reasonable, being active in your sex life. Participating. Just as I wrote about Men, that doesn't just mean agreeing to everything it means bringing something to it. You need to be just as assertive here as well. Your sex life should be a collaboration.

All of this explains why husband feel let down when their wives were willing to be more sexual open with people before them, or God forbid someone they cheated with. They want to be the one at the end who knew their wives in this way the best. By the way this is not me advocating for something they find painful. If that is only what it's about then that is unfair.

The example I always give is, if you went to Paris with someone else, I get it, you can't have that experience of going to Paris the first time with me. I can accept this. What you can do is go to Paris "with me" for the first time and also go Venus which would be the first time for both of us. Now if you hated Paris, if it was because of the company then why not give Paris a shot with me? But let's say the air in Paris made you sick and you just can't do it. Well, if you tell me, well I went to Paris and I didn't like it, and I just decided I don't want to travel anymore. That is not good enough for me, you got to at least be willing to go somewhere else with me. I am not going to quit traveling, I will just fine another traveling partner telling you first. 

All things being equal this is reasonable, and when both parties get this it doesn't even need to be said. There are plenty of women on here who get it, and are actively enjoying their sex life with their partners. There are a lot of men on here who are quite obviously their wives best friends and partners and actually enjoy connecting. That is a basis of a good marriage in my mind. The problem is when you have issues like what is highlighted int his post where the women isn't even attracted to their partner, essentially then there is no hope.

I think both spouses at the end of their lives dream of having a marriage where they look back and think. They never let me down. They helped me raised good kids together (if that is your thing). They helped me built wealth together. They shared good friendships with me. We shared great times. They want to think back to those times and be proud.

Now here is a secret that I am not sure all wives understand. Right in the middle of that, and just as an important a dream for most men is being able to think. My wife and I had a lot of crazy sex, that only we will know about or would believe. In fact there are men who post here who as a guy can see the pride when they write about their wives. I am not sure if all the ladies get this, us guys know it. It's a very big deal. I think I explained why, but what it really comes down to is that he KNOWS HER because SHE TOLD HIM. Intemacy is as important as love in a marriage. It's just as much the point.

All that being said, when it comes to dead bedrooms the first thing you need to look at is yourself.

Not sure I answered your question. I guess maybe one of the things I am saying is as a wife if you want a long healthy sexual life you have to do more then just receive, you have to be active. So saying, I am ready whenever he wants may not be enough to keep his attention. Just like doing the dishes may not be enough for the husband.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

lifeistooshort said:


> Thank you 😊
> 
> It's had for me to believe that 3 1/2 years have passed since my divorce. I no longer have to walk on eggshells shells for fear of making his highness uncomfortable..


I can relate to the eggshells. It SUCKS. It’s one of the things on my list (a regrettably long list) of things I want to speak about in MC. There are certain aspects in my life where I have to have the utmost care and precision or she will snap. It causes a lot of anxiety in me and I don’t get to be “me”, and this is during the times where we should be happy. 



lifeistooshort said:


> It's hard to accept that one of you is a square peg and the other is a round hole but sometimes that's the case and you waste precious time of your life until you accept it.


I also feel you on the wasted time. That is where I currently am at. That is the bulk of the issue I have with myself. How could I be so damn ignorant and not get this information when I was a lot younger? 

Such is life. I didn’t know then. I know now. Just gotta make due with the time I have left. 

Square peg into the round hole. I plan on having that answer by the time december rolls around this year.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

lifeistooshort said:


> Thank you 😊
> 
> It's had for me to believe that 3 1/2 years have passed since my divorce. I no longer have to walk on eggshells shells for fear of making his highness uncomfortable..
> 
> It's hard to accept that one of you is a square peg and the other is a round hole but sometimes that's the case and you waste precious time of your life until you accept it.


Yep, that is why I linked to that post and pretty much my point all the time on here.

85% of your success in marriage comes at the picking stage. 

Sadly, like everything else in life, it takes time to gain precious wisdom to help you make the best choices for your future. Often the wisdom comes from making the wrong ones first.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

sokillme said:


> Yeah that is the hard part. From a man's point of view you can try to become more overtly sexual with him, however I understand this is easier said then done for a lot of people. Also depending on the Man that may just be too much for him. Also if it's a big switch it may cause him to become suspicious. I do thing this post works for women too though in the sense that the biggest problem for many of the husband's discussed on that post is who they married. For many of those wives, their husbands have no hope. Part of why I posted this. Same holds true for wives in dead bedroom situations. It's like I always say 85% of the success of your marriage comes down to who you marry. So much is based on the picking stage. You get someone who isn't into sex or isn't attracted to you (assuming you are in reasonable shape and put some effort into being attractive) then there is no hope.
> 
> That being said, no matter what the media tells you male and female sexuality is different, particularly if you are talking long term relationships. I think it's not a different in all areas we were used to be led to believe, for instance women's sexuality is much more appearance driven then popular media tells us, the Woody Allen's of the world are not ending up with women falling all over them but it's still different in other way. It's one of the reasons why I always tell guys here that you have to make your wife feel emotionally safe. But I would say for women, if you do feel safe he will feel closer to you if you are adventurous and really open up that side of your nature to him, assuming your nature is not about other men (though now a days?).
> 
> ...


Love reading your posts. Always very clear to me what you are trying to get across. I also like the analogies. 

It’s interesting, I agree with you on the women wanting their man to open up while we are mostly guarded. 

I am open here because it is anonymous. I am very guarded except for with my wife. Unfortunately, my wife is the exception to the rule and it hurts like a mofo. She is extremely guarded with her feelings and doesn’t share hardly anything with me. I have to schedule time for us to talk in order for her to speak to me and even then she won’t do it unless I constantly remind her that we have a “talk” coming up. If I don’t say anything, it won’t happen.

Lol. I have often wondered what it would be like if my wife spoke openly with me like wives usually do with their husbands. That would be pretty cool, I think.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Rus47 said:


> Oh, my wife always said she didnt like beard. Until I grew one. Then she thought it was wonderful.


Same here. 

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

TIL Paris trip ~= anal sex.

😂


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Love reading your posts. Always very clear to me what you are trying to get across. I also like the analogies.
> 
> It’s interesting, I agree with you on the women wanting their man to open up while we are mostly guarded.
> 
> ...


So this is your problem. Your wife for whatever reason doesn't feel safe emotionally with you. You may have even solved your dead bedroom issue but it's kind of like what I wrote if she is doing it out of even a little fear it's probably not as good as it could be or what you really want.

Have you ever said that last sentence to her?

Look, maybe you have done this and what do I know, but I would start by asking her if she feels safe with you. I suspect she will say yes but then ask her why she is guarded (use that to try to figure it out). She probably will say she doesn't really think it's important. I think you can gently but consistently show her that it is to you. Ask her how she feels even with normal thing, and ask her why she thinks she feel that way, let her get used to telling you that. My point is establish a culture when she talks about her feelings with you because it's a dialog. Normalize that.

I think if you could ever get to the point where she felt safe with you that way, then you can use that as a framework to build an open sexual relationship as well. I think you can then explain to her that your need for sex isn't about getting off (I mean of course it is in the micro) but it's about being close to her too, in the macro.

It's possible there is stuff in her past that she has never shared with you that may contribute to all this.

In general the way I see it is our wife's have to look at us like their emotional safe place. Like the cave they go into when their is a storm. I am never going to be my wife's friend who she talks about her feelings too. I don't have the emotional capacity for that. But if someone is giving her a hard time emotionally she will see the rage in my face and even if I never act on it she knows I am going to be there to protect her.

All that being said if our relationship was like one of these guys mentioned on that website and she just married me because I do that for her, I'm out.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

sokillme said:


> Yeah that is the hard part. From a man's point of view you can try to become more overtly sexual with him, however I understand this is easier said then done for a lot of people. Also depending on the Man that may just be too much for him. Also if it's a big switch it may cause him to become suspicious. I do think this post works for women too though even though it's from the women's point of view. For the husbands point of view on the other end of the discussion, their biggest problem is who they married. In the same way many of wives in dead bedroom situations, they also have no hope. Part of why I posted this the point is the same, in many cases it's too late. It's like I always say 85% of the success of your marriage comes down to who you marry. So much is based on the picking stage. You get someone who isn't into sex or isn't attracted to you (assuming you are in reasonable shape and put some effort into being attractive) then there is no hope. Again that was my point.
> 
> That being said, no matter what the media tells you male and female sexuality is different, particularly if you are talking long term relationships. I think it's not a different in all the areas we were used to be led to believe, for instance women's sexuality is much more appearance driven then popular media tells us. The Woody Allen's of the world are not ending up with women falling all over them but it's still different in other way. It's one of the reasons why I always tell guys here that you have to make your wife feel emotionally safe. But I would say for women, if you do feel safe he will feel closer to you if you are adventurous and really open up that side of your nature to him, assuming your nature is not about other men (though now a days?).
> 
> ...


This is an excellent response!! I believe you have a very good insight into how male-female sexual dynamics (should) work in a loving relationship, and you always give me alot to think about!

I will say however, that for some sexless men and women, they are making a conscious CHOICE to selfishly ignore their partner's needs, and in those cases, there isn't much you can do.

Also, it's hard to pick a good partner when they choose to purposefully LIE in order to appear to be a good match for you...in that case, your openness and honesty with them in good faith ends up being the perfect map of how to trick and deceive you.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

ConanHub said:


> I think it does. Seeing your spouse from a little distance and when they are doing something they are good at while being interacted with and appreciated by others, allows a healthy reaction.
> 
> Mrs. C and have had some rough patches where I definitely wasn't appreciating her.
> 
> ...


I relate to the sentiment of this. And we’ve had our issues too. However, what I have noticed is that in context of your post, for me, it’s less related to other women and more about observing him in different life scenarios; how he conducts himself. 

A couple of examples from this week. I’d observed that someone had done something for our community. Thought it was cool. Only just discovered it was Batman. As I kind of figured it out, and he confirmed it was him, I was laughing about the circumstances of me admiring this and him not previously saying anything. Then ‘Why didn’t you tell me it was you?’ And it wasn’t that he was not telling me on purpose, just didn’t really occur to him, then in part I think he was amused that I’d noticed, and then combined with a bit of humility. Unlike how I present here. I suggested that he was a man of mystery (in the positive sense). He expressed why he decided to do this thing. And ermm I was tingly all over. 

Another was hearing him on a work call. I’ve consistently heard him both challenge and praise people, and the respect he demonstrates to others and himself makes me all …mreow. Including when I could hear someone trying to gather their thoughts on a group call, and he just patiently provided the time and space for them to do so; rather than potentially jumping in prematurely to hurry things along. I did relay to him that I’d heard that meeting play out and my positive view of how he does what he does. And I find that sh*t very alluring.

As for interacting with other women, that tends not to create the same response in me. It’s far and few between that I’d react as well. One that I can think of was a few years back, he was public speaking, everyone laughing with his jokes, and I just felt the audience saw in him what I do. He also hadn’t prepared really, but was just speaking from his own knowledge and experience in a very authentic way. Afterwards, I saw that an attractive woman had gone up to him. And yeah, I bee-lined over lol. He introduced us, then another woman came over and she was introduced to us both as the other woman’s wife. My shoulders then relaxed 😆


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

LisaDiane said:


> This is an excellent response!! I believe you have a very good insight into how male-female sexual dynamics (should) work in a loving relationship, and you always give me alot to think about!
> 
> I will say however, that for some sexless men and women, they are making a conscious CHOICE to selfishly ignore their partner's needs, and in those cases, there isn't much you can do.
> 
> Also, it's hard to pick a good partner when they choose to purposefully LIE in order to appear to be a good match for you...in that case, your openness and honesty with them in good faith ends up being the perfect map of how to trick and deceive you.


100% to all of this. Like half the world are assholes. It's like I wrote to lifeistooshort, it sad that it's set up that you are making life altering decisions without having the wisdom needed to make good ones. Lots of times that wisdom is hard won by making mistakes with those life altering decisions. I wish I knew then what I know know right?

As far as my insight to male-female dynamic. I would say for half of the world what I said makes sense, I can tell you from experience that lots of men are never going to be this thoughtful and their marriage is really all about what they can get out of it. Having read Reddit enough now I know that just as many women fell the same way, hell the response to the posts in the thread I copied showed what men are up against. Lots of women think EXACTLY like men when it comes to hooking up too, which was shocking to me at first. It's 100% about getting off and all about lust, they use men the same way that men use women. Not sure if this is new or was just hidden before. My Mom's generation would tell you it's not true but I wonder if that is a cultural thing. 

So you can be the best partner that has ever lived and still be stuck in a hopeless situation. 

This probably contributes to my kind of doom and gloom reputation here when it comes to my response to cheating. This was as hard won lesson in my life as well, It's not intuitive but a lot of success in life is knowing when to bail on a situation and move on. I guess I wouldn't make a good marriage counselor because I suspect I would be telling half the people to divorce because there is no hope. I really think about half the people who get married don't have the stuff for it. Which is why I think it's a good thing that marriage is declining. 

Don't get me started on parenting.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

heartsbeating said:


> I relate to the sentiment of this. And we’ve had our issues too. However, what I have noticed is that in context of your post, for me, it’s less related to other women and more about observing him in different life scenarios; how he conducts himself.
> 
> A couple of examples from this week. I’d observed that someone had done something for our community. Thought it was cool. Only just discovered it was Batman. As I kind of figured it out, and he confirmed it was him, I was laughing about the circumstances of me admiring this and him not previously saying anything. Then ‘Why didn’t you tell me it was you?’ And it wasn’t that he was not telling me on purpose, just didn’t really occur to him, then in part I think he was amused that I’d noticed, and then combined with a bit of humility. Unlike how I present here. I suggested that he was a man of mystery (in the positive sense). He expressed why he decided to do this thing. And ermm I was tingly all over.
> 
> ...


It's funny, so I run lots of stuff at works. Lots of meetings and projects. I can tell that right after, women are mush more responsive to me. If they don't see that side of me the dynamic will change in the work relationship right after. Nothing inappropriate but more smiles a lot more hellos, I wonder if they even realize it. It's the type of thing where in the wrong type of people take advantage of this. I think it contributes to a lot of work place affairs.

Also I am usually someone who will talk and ask questions at town hall type meetings, or will chime in with solutions and you can just tell that women will come over to you afterwords and feel you out before they see my wife.

What that really is, is a situation where I show my assertiveness and leadership skills, but it's been a good lesson to me. That is obviously attractive to most women, even the type A kind. So I try to do that in my marriage. This is why these passive guys get cheated on.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

If you are honest and genuine people, you talk and fix problems. Most people have issues and can’t do that. It’s life. I never liked playing games. I’m still the same person and I’m not going to change myself. I’m proud of who I am. If it’s not fixable, so be it. I’m not going to buy some new smaller bras for my wife so I can satisfy my fantasies and blackmail her to stay in the marriage. There is a lot of sick game playing here. I find it very depressing and feel sorry for people.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

sokillme said:


> I can tell you from experience that lots of men are never going to be this thoughtful and their marriage is really all about what they can get out of it.


It’s not enough to just be thoughtful about it either, you need to be able to act on those thoughts in a constructive way.

A few weeks ago my wife was doing something really annoying to me when we were out with her family. She’s like, “oh they’ll just follow us to X or Y or Z” location which is 10+ miles away across multiple freeways and bridges. This is nearly impossible in our area. So I asked her to please pick one so everyone knows where we’re going so if we get separated we’re not driving in circles on cell phones.

She refused to do it.

Ultimately she says well prepare to just be annoyed because this is what I’m doing.

My immediate reaction was anger at the stupidity of the situation but I thought about it and there was actually an important lesson here (for me). The lesson is, when she is with her family no matter how irritating it is for me she wants me to STFU and smile and go along with it and support whatever annoying things they’re going to do with full gusto.

I thought about it more and in retrospect, what did I care if they’re doing things that are stupid? I don’t. I mean it’s not for everybody but if it’s for them why can’t I just STFU and go to a happy place?

My life would be better, my blood pressure would be lower, and my relationship with her would improve. What does it actually cost me? Nothing really…


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

What about the Brads and Chads? They are never concerned about the sexual psycholigy. And wouldnt the same women posting their pride at enforcing a dead bedroom drop their knickers quickly for Brad and/or Chad?

That is the thing, a man whose wife isnt doing him enthusiastically and often will very likely have a cheater in his future. The only way to avoid it is to become Brad or Chad. Not eady to accomplish. Maybe impossible.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

ccpowerslave said:


> It’s not enough to just be thoughtful about it either, you need to be able to act on those thoughts in a constructive way.
> 
> A few weeks ago my wife was doing something really annoying to me when we were out with her family. She’s like, “oh they’ll just follow us to X or Y or Z” location which is 10+ miles away across multiple freeways and bridges. This is nearly impossible in our area. So I asked her to please pick one so everyone knows where we’re going so if we get separated we’re not driving in circles on cell phones.
> 
> ...


Yep. It's hard when it's a dynamic that already existed. In some cases you can take care of it and tell her, look you have fun with your family and I will get them there. Like pre-emptive stupidity avoidance. Thing is you can't let her know that is why you are doing it, hence. I don't want you to have to worry about that, let me do it. Actually full disclosure my wife does this with me sometimes, and not because I will do something stupid but because she tends to worry about stuff she isn't in control over as she is type A. I know what she is doing and I always call her out and laugh. But hey if I don't if she wants to do it.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

sokillme said:


> It's funny, so I run lots of stuff at works. Lots of meetings and projects. I can tell that right after, women are mush more responsive to me. If they don't see that side of me the dynamic will change in the work relationship right after. Nothing inappropriate but more smiles a lot more hellos, I wonder if they even realize it. It's the type of thing where in the wrong type of people take advantage of this. I think it contributes to a lot of work place affairs.
> 
> Also I am usually someone who will talk and ask questions at town hall type meetings, or will chime in with solutions and you can just tell that women will come over to you afterwords and feel you out before they see my wife.
> 
> What that really is, is a situation where I show my assertiveness and leadership skills, but it's been a good lesson to me. That is obviously attractive to most women, even the type A kind. So I try to do that in my marriage. This is why these passive guys get cheated on.


After I wrote the above, recognized what you relay that it’s related to leadership qualities and emotional intelligence. To add, and him just knowing what he’s about.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

ccpowerslave said:


> It’s not enough to just be thoughtful about it either, you need to be able to act on those thoughts in a constructive way.
> 
> A few weeks ago my wife was doing something really annoying to me when we were out with her family. She’s like, “oh they’ll just follow us to X or Y or Z” location which is 10+ miles away across multiple freeways and bridges. This is nearly impossible in our area. So I asked her to please pick one so everyone knows where we’re going so if we get separated we’re not driving in circles on cell phones.
> 
> ...


I can say that's a reality. I learned 20yrs ago that my W doesn't do some things like I would but barring me knowing for sure of avoidable harm I told myself the same.....that in the end it doesn't matter, if she wants it that way, well, ok, because it will work out one way or the other. No use breaking a sweat over it.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> I can say that's a reality. I learned 20yrs ago that my W doesn't do some things like I would but barring me knowing for sure of avoidable harm I told myself the same.....that in the end it doesn't matter, if she wants it that way, well, ok, because it will work out one way or the other. No use breaking a sweat over it.


A large part of my job is to get people to do what I tell them and all pull in the same direction so I am used to making people do what I want. For her it’s not good, she doesn’t want me to do that.

Part of overall switching off and dialing way back and compromising on things I would have been inflexible about has helped me a lot.

I think there is something about trying to create the conditions your relationship was in where it was amazing. Thinking back how were you different (besides the obvious). How did you treat her differently?

I wanted to be with her all the time so I never even noticed the stupid crap she was doing with her family but she was doing all of that then as well and maybe even worse (I did rub off on her a bit) it’s just I didn’t notice or care. So something about me changed and as I work to change it back then she also changes in response.

Is it a game as IA suggests? Not really. I think it’s the work you need to do to try and keep things running smoothly for decades.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

ccpowerslave said:


> A large part of my job is to get people to do what I tell them and all pull in the same direction so I am used to making people do what I want. For her it’s not good, she doesn’t want me to do that.
> 
> Part of overall switching off and dialing way back and compromising on things I would have been inflexible about has helped me a lot.
> 
> ...


I always tell myself the old adage still, there's more than one way to skin the cat and if I'm not the skinner at present all is ok as long as the cat ends up skinned. 🤣🤣🤣


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Rus47 said:


> What about the Brads and Chads? They are never concerned about the sexual psycholigy. And wouldnt the same women posting their pride at enforcing a dead bedroom drop their knickers quickly for Brad and/or Chad?
> 
> That is the thing, a man whose wife isnt doing him enthusiastically and often will very likely have a cheater in his future. The only way to avoid it is to become Brad or Chad. Not eady to accomplish. Maybe impossible.


I know what a Chad is, how is a Brad different?


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

TexasMom1216 said:


> I know what a Chad is, how is a Brad different?


Brad works in accounting


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

ccpowerslave said:


> Is it a game as IA suggests? Not really. I think it’s the work you need to do to try and keep things running smoothly for decades.


Maybe it’s not a game, but some people really do go over the top. If you really have to manipulate like that, for years, I would take a closer look at the status quo. Is it really worth it? I’m amazed at the stuff people do here to get the upper hand. It feels like I’m watching a movie, sometimes.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

TexasMom1216 said:


> I know what a Chad is, how is a Brad different?


Brad was Billie's old BF in Netflix Sex/Life series. She was married to Cooper, but Brad was her main interest. Bras=Chad

"*Billie* realized that she wanted more than the simple life she was living with Cooper and her family, so she ran to *Brad* in the middle of the night"

Now Cooper wasn't in a dead bedroom by any means, so maybe bad example


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

In Absentia said:


> Maybe it’s not a game, but some people really do go over the top. If you really have to manipulate like that, for years, I would take a closer look at the status quo. Is it really worth it? I’m amazed at the stuff people do here to get the upper hand. It feels like I’m watching a movie, sometimes.


I think if you can’t get into a maintenance mode then yeah maybe you’re right and certainly it wouldn’t be for everyone.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

Numb26 said:


> Brad works in accounting


Different Brad. Brad was multimillionaire BF of Billie. I believe Kevin is the one in accounting. Sven is the Yoga instructor.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

ccpowerslave said:


> I think if you can’t get into a maintenance mode then yeah maybe you’re right and certainly it wouldn’t be for everyone.


I admire you for the work you put into the relationship in order to maintain your preferred comfortable level. I’m serious. But you must have a partner who’s prepared to make you happy, regardless. You are lucky.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Rus47 said:


> Brad was Billie's old BF in Netflix Sex/Life series. She was married to Cooper, but Brad was her main interest. Bras=Chad
> 
> "*Billie* realized that she wanted more than the simple life she was living with Cooper and her family, so she ran to *Brad* in the middle of the night"
> 
> Now Cooper wasn't in a dead bedroom by any means, so maybe bad example


I’m so old and out of touch I have no idea who any of these people are or what any of this means. 😂😂😂😉


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

ccpowerslave said:


> It’s not enough to just be thoughtful about it either, you need to be able to act on those thoughts in a constructive way.
> 
> A few weeks ago my wife was doing something really annoying to me when we were out with her family. She’s like, “oh they’ll just follow us to X or Y or Z” location which is 10+ miles away across multiple freeways and bridges. This is nearly impossible in our area. So I asked her to please pick one so everyone knows where we’re going so if we get separated we’re not driving in circles on cell phones.
> 
> ...


That family stuff is hardwired.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

TexasMom1216 said:


> I’m so old and out of touch I have no idea who any of these people are or what any of this means. 😂😂😂😉


Yup. No idea though I've heard the term "Chad" before.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

ConanHub said:


> Yup. No idea though I've heard the term "Chad" before.


Doesn't really have the same effect unless you use his WHOLE name. 🤣🤣🤣🤣


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Rus47 said:


> What about the Brads and Chads? They are never concerned about the sexual psycholigy. And wouldnt the same women posting their pride at enforcing a dead bedroom drop their knickers quickly for Brad and/or Chad?
> 
> That is the thing, a man whose wife isnt doing him enthusiastically and often will very likely have a cheater in his future. The only way to avoid it is to become Brad or Chad. Not eady to accomplish. Maybe impossible.


Honestly if you are calling men Brads and Chads in a serious manor your chances for a happy long term marital sexual dynamic is probably 0. Redpill (and I am using that term as a catchall for the modern male dating strategy that is prevalent on social media) works well on a very short term shallow level. It's has no relevance to long term marital success. If anything if it works on someone you should never marry that person.

So yes what you wrote is true, but the issue is that you married a women like that. You are SOL.

What RP is good at is to up your sex count, which makes sense as that is the way at which you are measured.

Not saying there isn't some truth in it. but I think it's best for finding women to avoid or for women to identify men to avoid, if I was single and it was my thing I may even have sex with her but I sure as hell wouldn't marry that person.

The rest of us are much more complex then that. There are lots of reasons why someone might not have enthusiastic sex with a partner. If you want to have a good marriage you have to build a framework of trust and partnership to be able to talk about these things. If you think of dating and relationships as a kind of system where as you do this action and it will guarantee you these results you are just not operating with the kind of emotional sophistication that is necessary to have a good marriage particularly when it comes to women.

The whole Brad, Chad thing works with a specific kind of women. The kind that is heavenly invested social media and trying to meet athletes and movie stars. Ones I would a absolutely avoid as far as long term relationships.

I mean for all the others the whole Brad, Chad thing falls apart at least for how RP identifies them if you read these threads. For instance at least half the time women have affairs with men who are not as attractive or successful as their husband. The reasons is because those guys connect emotionally with them. In the context of the connection they are willing to be much more sexual then they are with their husbands. It has to do with the closeness I talked about. All though these things are important in your relationship in general, those affairs still have nothing to do with frame, or salary or muscles. It's all emotional intimacy. I read have read enough posts from players to see that that is what they work on. Shared secrets, you and me against everyone else. A tone that should be typical to your relationship with your wife.

Again that is not to say there isn't some truth in Red Pill. The idea that you should be strong both mentally and physically, be the best you can be, try to be attractive, be assertive is all true. But I feel like my Mom and Sisters were telling me a version of this when I was in my teens and asking what I should do to get a date.

How many times to you hear - Just be yourself. I think that presumes that someone will be assertive when they are comfortable, but that isn't always the case. Better advice is - be assertive.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

heartsbeating said:


> After I wrote the above, recognized what you relay that it’s related to leadership qualities and emotional intelligence. To add, and him just knowing what he’s about.


Yeah but it's a good thing he is about, leadership and emotional intelligence. 🙃


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Rus47 said:


> Different Brad. Brad was multimillionaire BF of Billie. I believe Kevin is the one in accounting. Sven is the Yoga instructor.


Kevin is from sales. 

It's Steve is in accounting. 

And yes, Sven is from yoga.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

All I can say, from my personal experience, is that I used to be Cooper before, now I am Brad and I am much, much happier.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

In Absentia said:


> I admire you for the work you put into the relationship in order to maintain your preferred comfortable level. I’m serious. But you must have a partner who’s prepared to make you happy, regardless. You are lucky.


It is true. I just asked if she wanted to get Starbucks (in the middle of the work day) and we went and parked about a half mile from the store and walked there holding hands. It was like a Hallmark movie or something.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

oldshirt said:


> Kevin is from sales.
> 
> It's Steve is in accounting.
> 
> And yes, Sven is from yoga.


Steve is totally in accounting. 

Is Ken a real estate agent?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

sokillme said:


> Honestly if you are calling men Brads and Chads in a serious manor your chances for a happy long term marital sexual dynamic is probably 0. Redpill (and I am using that term as a catchall for the modern male dating strategy that is prevalent on social media) works well on a very short term shallow level. It's has no relevance to long term marital success. If anything if it works on someone you should never marry that person.
> 
> So yes what you wrote is true, but the issue is that you married a women like that. You are SOL.
> 
> ...


You're trying to break women down into sub-groups where some are good and some are bad. People do not come out of different factories or different moulds. We all have a mixture of various traits and characteristics and have very similar operating systems,,, some people just have some more of certain traits and motivations and less of others. And even then, people can have different interests and priorities and different motivations at different times and different circumstances. 

There is not a specific "type" of woman that likes Chad or Brad. Some just happen to like Brian or Ron or Jeff or Bob or whoever. The vast vast vast majority of women see me as a Melvin. But there's been a special few over the years that see me not as Melvin the Nerd Boy, but as Melvin Thundercck (maybe Chad's younger and nerdier cousin or something) Trust me, it surprises me just as much when that happens as it surprises other chicks who can't understand why those particular chicks think I'm hot. 

Many times women themselves are just as surprised by their own desire and response to someone. People's attractions and desires do not follow rule books regardless if the rule books are written by religious institutions, social convention or the Red Pill community. People get hot for who they get hot for when they get hot for them.

Good looking, buff, financially successful, charismatic guys with high social status are going to have more chicks over a given period of time be hot for them than the socially inept, out of shape, nerdy guys. But the nerdy guys get their fan girls too now and then. 

What I do disagree with above is that women primarily cheat due to emotional intimacy and emotional safety etc When a chick blows a biker in restroom of a bar or ducks into the cleaning closet with Kevin From Sales or meets up with Sven From Yoga in the back of the parking lot after yoga class, it's not for emotional intimacy or because he makes her feel safe. 
It's because he makes her feel very UNSAFE. 

When a WW swings by her OM's apartment on the way home from work or with a load of groceries in the car, it's not because she is needing some emotional intimacy. It's because she is wanting some schlong. It's because she is wanting to feel the rush and feel alive and feel thrilled and excited and stimulated and UNSTABLE. 

The reason that WW's do things with OM that they don't/won't with their BH's is not that they have more emotional intimacy and safety etc with the OM,,,,, it's the exact opposite in fact. 

It is because the OM already knows she's a horny, cheating, sexpot and she knows she'll never be able to fool him into thinking she is some sweet and innocent little church that bakes cookies for bible study and volunteers at the nursing home. She knows that he knows she is a horny cheater so she doesn't pretend not to be and unleashes her full sexual animal self with him. 

Then she goes home where continues to pretend that she's the sweet and innocent church girl who only has sex as her marital duty with the lights off, under the blankets in the missionary position (usually with her eyes closed remembering the hot encounter with the OM) 

WWs are horny sex beasts with the OM because the OM lets them and they know they can never pretend to be anything but. 

So I guess if you want to call that emotional intimacy because they can allow their full sexual nature with the OM, I guess you can in a sick and twisted kind of way. But I don't think that is how you intended it.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> You're trying to break women down into sub-groups where some are good and some are bad. People do not come out of different factories or different moulds. We all have a mixture of various traits and characteristics and have very similar operating systems,,, some people just have some more of certain traits and motivations and less of others. And even then, people can have different interests and priorities and different motivations at different times and different circumstances.
> 
> There is not a specific "type" of woman that likes Chad or Brad. Some just happen to like Brian or Ron or Jeff or Bob or whoever. The vast vast vast majority of women see me as a Melvin. But there's been a special few over the years that see me not as Melvin the Nerd Boy, but as Melvin Thundercck (maybe Chad's younger and nerdier cousin or something) Trust me, it surprises me just as much when that happens as it surprises other chicks who can't understand why those particular chicks think I'm hot.
> 
> ...


Well to quote myself I said - "at least half the time women have affairs", there is certainly as subset of affairs that fit what you wrote too. I mean you read my posts (at least some times) how may times do I say to guys, you don't know this person and they have probably been doing this the whole marriage. 

That is a different type of affair then the one I spoke of above, and the women that has that kind of affair was probably going to cheat on anyone because her motivation is usually hooking up. Again this fits into the type of person you shouldn't even marry in the first place. I bet the read pill strategy would work great on her though, if you want to marry her good luck. Same goes with the guys who think that way. I mean it's understood that half the population isn't worth the effort right?

I am talking about a different type of affair the office type, that happens slowly. The only reason I brought it up was to point out that if it all worked like RP this type would never happen, but yet it does. 

If your point is there are different type of people and you can't just put everything into a category then that was my point too. Which is why I said you need to be much more emotional sophisticated then that and why RP is stupid.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

ccpowerslave said:


> It’s not enough to just be thoughtful about it either, you need to be able to act on those thoughts in a constructive way.
> 
> A few weeks ago my wife was doing something really annoying to me when we were out with her family. She’s like, “oh they’ll just follow us to X or Y or Z” location which is 10+ miles away across multiple freeways and bridges. This is nearly impossible in our area. So I asked her to please pick one so everyone knows where we’re going so if we get separated we’re not driving in circles on cell phones.
> 
> ...


You did insist she do the driving, didn't you? That way you are relieved of any responsibility for the driving in circles that her family is bound to pick up on.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

sokillme said:


> Well to quote myself I said - "at least half the time women have affairs", there is certainly as subset of affairs that fit what you wrote too. I mean you read my posts (at least some times) how may times do I say to guys, you don't know this person and they have probably been doing this the whole marriage.
> 
> That is a different type of affair then the one I spoke of above, and the women that has that kind of affair was probably going to cheat on anyone because her motivation is usually hooking up. Again this fits into the type of person you shouldn't even marry in the first place. I bet the read pill strategy would work great on her though, if you want to marry her good luck. Same goes with the guys who think that way. I mean it's understood that half the population isn't worth the effort right?
> 
> ...


I agree that a lot of red pill content floating around out there is phahooey. 

But you are still making it sound like there is a good girl vs bad girl phenomenon taking place. 

Yes there will be some affairs that develop over a long time in a work environment or some kind of close social network or something.

I’m old enough and have been around the block enough that I no longer believe in “types.”

There are countless church girls that would have met everyone’s convent of what you are considering as marriage worthy that were perfectly faithful and dutiful wives..... until they weren’t. 

Yes, some were the slow build of feelings with a coworker or neighbor or whatever over time.
And some were the biker at the bar on a GNO or following Sven From Yoga out to his car after yoga class. 

But they didn’t fall into any particular type or pigeon hole.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

Numb26 said:


> All I can say, from my personal experience, is that I used to be Cooper before, now I am Brad and I am much, much happier.


Who wouldnt be happy to be Brad? But Cooper wants to know how you managed the change


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> I agree that a lot of red pill content floating around out there is phahooey.
> 
> But you are still making it sound like there is a good girl vs bad girl phenomenon taking place.
> 
> ...


So it's not good girl bad girl but I would start with the premise about that half the population both men and women are not even worth the effort when it comes to relationships. Throw them out like garbage.

Just to make one thing clear, I am just as happy to make annoying generalizations about men. I am talking about RP here though. If we were talking about "Female Dating Strategy" I would being making just as many annoying proclamations about how stupid I think it is.

So I disagree about affair types of affairs though. Having read these sites for years, I think there are only about 7 or so types of affairs and the consistency is ridiculous. I also think that people character doesn't change much for good or bad. I believe if you knew enough about your church girls there was always signs it's just they hid it singing in church. Do some people impulsively have affairs yeah, but most affairs don't work that way. Usually even in those cases it's a spouse who is already disconnecting, the premise and motivation of their marriage was always what do I get out of this, which is why it's easier to leave when their priorities change.

Look it's hard to find someone who is safe, yeah very much so, but there are safe people. But safe is a relative concept anyway, you can have the best marriage and your spouse gets hit by a bus tomorrow and it's still over.

Anyway we can agree to disagree.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

Rus47 said:


> Who wouldnt be happy to be Brad? But Cooper wants to know how you managed the change


Serious body change, regaining of self-worth and complete change of attitude and thinking. Good guys truly do finish last.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Blondilocks said:


> You did insist she do the driving, didn't you? That way you are relieved of any responsibility for the driving in circles that her family is bound to pick up on.


She always drives unless she tells me to. Her nickname in school was “Andretti”. I have driven with her in various Porsches at Sears point raceway and it made me clench IRL.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Numb26 said:


> Serious body change, regaining of self-worth and complete change of attitude and thinking. Good guys truly do finish last.


Nice guys finish last. Good men only run races against themselves.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

sokillme said:


> I am talking about RP here though. If we were talking about "Female Dating Strategy" I would being making just as many annoying proclamations about how stupid I think it is.


Hahah I think it’s pretty funny as an inverted red pill.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

ccpowerslave said:


> Hahah I think it’s pretty funny as an inverted red pill.


They deserve each other.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

@sokillme: OK, I can accept your point about APs not necessarily being better than their husband physically. There was a very long thread on TAM by Barby who cheated on husband Ken with an old BF ( who was not a Chad) who she said was far inferior to Ken physically and skillfully, but connected emotionally with her.

My point was, what happens to the poor schmuck in a dead bedroom, whose wife was never "into him" when she surely encounters a man she IS really into. I was saying a man in a dead bedroom can look forward to his wife cheating on him, it is only a matter of time. So how much good is it going to do the poor schmuck to go to the gym, lift weights, lose weight? If he is in a dead bedroom, isn't better off to just leave and try again elsewhere?


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

sokillme said:


> Nice guys finish last. Good men only run races against themselves.


So true. I guess the biggest change I made is that I am not so accommodating anymore.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

TexasMom1216 said:


> I’m so old and out of touch I have no idea who any of these people are or what any of this means. 😂😂😂😉


Listen, I am older than dirt! I picked all these names and stories up from TAM ( including the Netflix series ). TAM has been a bad influence on this straightlaced *OLD* man.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Numb26 said:


> Doesn't really have the same effect unless you use his WHOLE name. 🤣🤣🤣🤣


Is "thunder" in it?😏


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

ConanHub said:


> Is "thunder" in it?😏


That would be it 🤫


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Numb26 said:


> That would be it 🤫


We have our very own guy like that posting on TAM.😁


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

ConanHub said:


> We have our very own guy like that posting on TAM.😁


I think I know who it is 😄


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Rus47 said:


> @sokillme:
> 
> My point was, what happens to the poor schmuck in a dead bedroom, whose wife was never "into him" when she surely encounters a man she IS really into. I was saying a man in a dead bedroom can look forward to his wife cheating on him, it is only a matter of time. So how much good is it going to do the poor schmuck to go to the gym, lift weights, lose weight? If he is in a dead bedroom, isn't better off to just leave and try again elsewhere?


There’s a lot of moving parts and nuances in the scenario above though.

If one of the main reasons she wasn’t all that into him sexually is because he is an overweight Cheeto eating couch potato, then him getting himself to the gym and getting in shape may help a lot. 

But If he is already a bodybuilder spending 4 hours a day at the gym - then spending another hour a day probably won’t. 

A lot of the equation will depend on if the guy in the DB even WANTS to keep her around and what he’s willing to do to gain her attraction.

If he has to basically transform himself into someone else, he may not want to. 

And if she is hooking up with someone that turns her and he catches her, he may just hand her over to the OM and let him deal with her. 

On a basic level, I do think a good number of those women in the comment sections will end up getting with someone else if they aren’t already. 

If they are in a DB, that means she isn’t getting her sexual needs met either (assuming she’s not currently cheating). 

We are social creatures that live long lives. Eventually she is going to meet someone that does make her jay-jay tingle. 

When that happens she is going to go through all sorts of mental gymnastics and self justifications on why she should get down with Sven From Yoga or Kevin From Sales et al. 

We can argue over whether people were even meant to be life-long monogamous.

But I don’t think anyone will argue that we were never designed to be celibate for life. These women are going to be getting it somewhere at some point.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Numb26 said:


> I think I know who it is 😄


Somehow I picture his intro reveal having AC/DC Thunderstruck playing.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

heartsbeating said:


> I relate to the sentiment of this. And we’ve had our issues too. However, what I have noticed is that in context of your post, for me, it’s less related to other women and more about observing him in different life scenarios; how he conducts himself.
> 
> A couple of examples from this week. I’d observed that someone had done something for our community. Thought it was cool. Only just discovered it was Batman. As I kind of figured it out, and he confirmed it was him, I was laughing about the circumstances of me admiring this and him not previously saying anything. Then ‘Why didn’t you tell me it was you?’


Because he's BATMAN! He's dark and mysterious! DUH!


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Because he's BATMAN! He's dark and mysterious! DUH!


I'm glad you picked up on it


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

ccpowerslave said:


> Somehow I picture his intro reveal having AC/DC Thunderstruck playing.


Or AC/DC's Big Balls


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Numb26 said:


> Or AC/DC's Big Balls


You could pretty much pick any AC/DC song and it would work.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Rus47 said:


> @sokillme: OK, I can accept your point about APs not necessarily being better than their husband physically. There was a very long thread on TAM by Barby who cheated on husband Ken with an old BF ( who was not a Chad) who she said was far inferior to Ken physically and skillfully, but connected emotionally with her.
> 
> My point was, what happens to the poor schmuck in a dead bedroom, whose wife was never "into him" when she surely encounters a man she IS really into. I was saying a man in a dead bedroom can look forward to his wife cheating on him, it is only a matter of time. So how much good is it going to do the poor schmuck to go to the gym, lift weights, lose weight? If he is in a dead bedroom, isn't better off to just leave and try again elsewhere?


Yeah but not every situation is like this one board post. Maybe the guy got really overweight or stopped taking care of himself, so in that case better to first get in shape, but if you do that and work on your closeness and she still isn't into you, then at least you are in shape when you move on.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

sokillme said:


> Yeah but not every situation is like this one board post. Maybe the guy got really overweight or stopped taking care of himself, so in that case better to first get in shape, but if you do that and work on your closeness and she still isn't into you, then at least you are in shape when you move on.


And don't have grey sweatpants as your permanent outfit.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

DownByTheRiver said:


> My advice to men is don't try to convince some women to marry you who isn't gung-ho to begin with.


Amen. Looking back, it’s painfully clear there was a message in her dragging her feet throughout our nearly 4.5 year engagement. I naively thought her concerns were about her negative view of the world, negative life experiences, and bad experiences with former lovers — and she’d eventually grow to trust happiness is possible with me. In reality, it seems I was a compromise to begin with, and any challenges life presented, challenges that happy couples manage to face together, were added to her disappointments already endured with me.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

I posed this in another thread but got no traction. What if most women with so-called responsive desire are really in the scenario this thread discusses? Perhaps true responsive desire is actually rare, and just an excuse for dead bedroom as described here. Are these women only responsive occasionally to keep their comfortable marriage?


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Married but Happy said:


> I posed this in another thread but got no traction. What if most women with so-called responsive desire are really in the scenario this thread discusses? Perhaps true responsive desire is actually rare, and just an excuse for dead bedroom as described here. Are these women only responsive occasionally to keep their comfortable marriage?


It's possible but I would disagree if you said it was the norm. I'm a woman, so it's tough for me to accept that it's all some crazy plot against men. 🤪 It's more likely that we are conditioned throughout our lives, especially if we were raised in specific cultures, to believe that sexual aggression is unfeminine. And for some of us (me), it's insecurity. The reason our desire is reactive is because even if we really want it, we wait until HE wants it and that HE wants US makes us feel sexy. Just an opinion.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Livvie said:


> And don't have grey sweatpants as your permanent outfit.


I had this huge old pair of sweatpants that I wore when I helped my bf paint his condo.

He took one look at me and proclaimed quite loudly that I looked like a bum 😅

I promised to wear them only for painting.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Married but Happy said:


> I posed this in another thread but got no traction. What if most women with so-called responsive desire are really in the scenario this thread discusses? Perhaps true responsive desire is actually rare, and just an excuse for dead bedroom as described here. Are these women only responsive occasionally to keep their comfortable marriage?


I'm sure it is safe to say that women in this scenario are all going to appear to be responsive desire. They will never initiate sex, so they can only be responsive. If they are good at faking it I guess the the husband may never be able to tell the difference between RD and simply not being attracted to them. I find it hard to believe that the men can't sense the lack of passion and enthusiasm in their wives. Reading some of the comments from that article shows that many of them are very unhappy have zero sexual desire for their husbands. I don't see how that does come through when being intimate. Maybe the guys are blind or choose not to acknowledge it.

My wife is almost always RD, but there are times she will initiate or give me some hint that I should be initiating. However, her passion is very clear even when I was the one to initiate. It hasn't happened often, but there have been times when she clearly wasn't into it and for me there is no better boner killer than her not being fully into it. She is my only point of reference, but I don't believe the majority of RD women simply aren't into their man. I think it is just female behavior in general that they need to get properly turned on before they are thinking about sex.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

Numb26 said:


> I think I know who it is 😄


Why are you all looking at me?


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

PieceOfSky said:


> Amen. Looking back, it’s painfully clear there was a message in her dragging her feet throughout our nearly 4.5 year engagement. I naively thought her concerns were about her negative view of the world, negative life experiences, and bad experiences with former lovers — and she’d eventually grow to trust happiness is possible with me. In reality, it seems I was a compromise to begin with, and any challenges life presented, challenges that happy couples manage to face together, were added to her disappointments already endured with me.


At least you had a warning...


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## Always Learning (Oct 2, 2013)

In Absentia said:


> Ok, maybe $300 😅


Save it your going to need it for a gallon of gas soon!


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

TexasMom1216 said:


> It's possible but I would disagree if you said it was the norm. I'm a woman, so it's tough for me to accept that it's all some crazy plot against men. 🤪 It's more likely that we are conditioned throughout our lives, especially if we were raised in specific cultures, to believe that sexual aggression is unfeminine. And for some of us (me), it's insecurity. The reason our desire is reactive is because even if we really want it, we wait until HE wants it and that HE wants US makes us feel sexy. Just an opinion.


It's more then that though. No one is saying it's a plot but did you read the post? There were a ton of women saying how they were never even attracted to him to begin with. Worse, the reaction is, "how brave your are", the reaction SHOULD BE - "That's a really ****ed up thing to do to somebody."

Listen, I think am am fair on here, I try to be. I appreciate women, I would never say all women about anything. I seek out their opinion's because it's often different and I value that as much any man's. I say all the time that women I know are generally kicking the guys ass when it comes to work.

However there is a tendency of a large group of women to see men like a tool, or a means to an end. It's very clear to me that lots of women deny men's humanity and treat them like they don't have feelings or agency. They are something to be tolerated for what they can get out of them. Men do exactly the same thing but if a guy wrote some of the posts that some of these wives wrote people would be all over them, and rightfully so. They wouldn't be saying how brave they were. 

Here we have a post where the way the speak shows just that attitude, and it completely goes over the head of the author and all of the commenters. Not one person wrote what I just did, how ****ed up it is. Not even, you should divorce him and give him a chance to find someone who is into him. Unless they are deleting those comments, and that is even worse, but I won't put it past them though.

One of the reasons I am always on about the Redpill thing is because I have a Wife, I have a Mother, I have Sisters, I have a work colleagues who Are not at all like that. The idea is laughable to me. I know it's crap and I say so often. Where are the women going off on this stuff? They have husbands, they have brothers, they have friends. The women in good marriages with good sex lives, why don't they speak up? Why aren't they defending us? It's always crickets.

So it may not be a plot, but it's not uncommon.

I think there is no doubt that the general opinion of a lot of women is, sex is not important, it was fun when I was young. Now though I am not happy with this but I will tolerate this for a while until we are married because of what I can get from this guy, because in other ways this guy has value to me. Not even a thought about the fairness of that.

As far as the other explanation, if you are attracted to your man, and do want sex, then I am sorry insecure about it, I really am. But when pig headed guy come on here and writes about how his wife annoys him because she always wants to talk with him, I tell them to suck to up. Your wife need this, that is your mission. Same holds true in this case. If your husband is showing you over and over how attractive he is to you, you need to get out of your own head. You trusted him enough to give the rest of your life with him. Open up a little, let go. F'n try. It's the same excuse guys give for not trying to be romantic, it feels weird to me. OK, it won't if you put some effort into it and continue to try. Eventually it actually becomes a fun challenge, but you have to try.

It's marriage, it's not the person who is just there to make you feel good about yourself.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Married but Happy said:


> I posed this in another thread but got no traction. What if most women with so-called responsive desire are really in the scenario this thread discusses? Perhaps true responsive desire is actually rare, and just an excuse for dead bedroom as described here. Are these women only responsive occasionally to keep their comfortable marriage?


I think you might be onto a common "cop out".

A lot of those women sure as hell "respond" to certain situations and certain men.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

TexasMom1216 said:


> It's possible but I would disagree if you said it was the norm. I'm a woman, so it's tough for me to accept that it's all some crazy plot against men. 🤪 It's more likely that we are conditioned throughout our lives, especially if we were raised in specific cultures, to believe that sexual aggression is unfeminine. And for some of us (me), it's insecurity. The reason our desire is reactive is because even if we really want it, we wait until HE wants it and that HE wants US makes us feel sexy. Just an opinion.


Good feminine insight and I think I agree.


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## Always Learning (Oct 2, 2013)

Luckylucky said:


> @LATERILUS79 you mentioned your wife told you that was normal, that’s what her friends told her, and she related that to you. (It’s not normal, in my group of friends, the women I mentioned get a stern talking to, we tell them they’re being cruel etc).
> 
> Did you have your own close friends to talk to, anyone? It was a cruel move and I’m saddened that you believed this. Why didn’t you have a close group of friends that could help you out here, and favourable marriages around you so that you had a comparison. I’m glad to hear it’s working out for you, the resentment is understandable and hopefully that settles so you can enjoy the present.


You know this is pretty common among guys. I have 5 guys i have been friends with since elementary school (we are all 60 now) We are all in long marriages and our wives are very friendly as well. We have never spoke about sex with our wives. I sometimes here the wives discussing it but never the guys.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

sokillme said:


> 1.Worse, the reaction is, "how brave your are", the reaction SHOULD BE - "That's a really ****ed up thing to do to somebody."
> 
> 2. However there is a tendency of a large group of women to see men like a tool, or a means to an end. It's very clear to me that lots of women deny men's humanity and treat them like they don't have feelings or agency. They are something to be tolerated for what they can get out of them. Men do exactly the same thing but if a guy wrote some of the posts that some of these wives wrote people would be all over them, and rightfully so. They wouldn't be saying how brave they were.
> 
> ...


I put numbers on the extracts from your post because I'm still in work mode, so I'm addressing these points individually. 😉 

I will open by saying, you and I agree. On pretty much all of this. 

1. That is a ****ed up reaction to someone doing a terrible thing to someone. 
2. As you say, there are men who do the same thing. Wives are for housework, breeding and a plan B for sex when you're in a fight with your girlfriend. They have no interest in them as people. And that is exactly as bad as women who use men as an ATM. What frustrates me is when a man uses a woman throughout her youth as household help and a nanny, as a supporting character in the movie of HIS life, and then cannot BELIEVE that when he's too old to chase young women any more, and the kids are out of the house, that this woman he used, abused, humiliated and ignored for 25 years hates him. Same with women who use men for money and security and then say "I can't believe he would end our marriage because I don't want to have sex with him!" Well, honey, you sold yourself as a contract hooker and now you're not doing your job. Don't like it? Shouldn't have signed that contract. 
3. I don't think it's that sex isn't important to them, I think they've been conditioned to believe it's a job or a chore and frankly, no one has ever made their toes curl. OR, it's that sex with THEIR HUSBAND isn't important to them. Toys can be a girl's best friend. Regardless, those women aren't really married. They're using him and lying to him and that is wrong.
4. THANK YOU for saying this. A man doesn't glean his purpose for living by pleasing his wife, and a wife doesn't glean her purpose for living by pleasing her husband. If either of those statements is true in ANY "marriage" it's a completely one-sided relationship and frankly, unhealthy. Marriage is supposed to be two equal partners with different roles building a life together. If only one person matters, whether it's the woman OR the man, it's not a marriage. It's a hostage situation.

Thanks for the thoughtful reply. Again, I totally agree with you.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

sokillme said:


> The women in good marriages with good sex lives, why don't they speak up? Why aren't they defending us? It's always crickets.


Defending where, exactly? What I mean is, I wouldn't come across the post you shared and admittedly, I almost didn't bother reading it as I just felt it would be a certain quality that I'm not into. And that's coming from an anonymous catwoman avie on a marriage forum; so I understand that I'm not one to poke holes in blogs such as those. I'm getting side-tracked, however, women who relate to the sentiment of the blog are the ones who are more likely to come across it. And then likely to feel validated that they're not alone in their experience.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

Also ...defending what, exactly? Oh no I've gotten in my own head about this now! But I do enjoy your threads, so here's more contribution from moi. If a friend admitted that to me, I'd be concerned (and in all honesty, feel pity) that she was depriving herself AND her husband in some way. However, although I might express such a thing if my view was welcomed, sometimes that doesn't mean squat in terms of anything changing.

Have you ever worked in an office where the dirty teaspoons or cups get left on the side / kitchen top when there's a dishwasher right there? This gets frustrating, and someone puts up a sign; perhaps on the actual kitchen top where the things are getting left. It continues, regardless. Okay, then a second sign goes up just above the sink on the wall. Still not much changes. My point is, if you're the kind of person that's going to leave the dirty cup/teaspoon there - is putting a sign up, or two signs, really going to change the behavior? Don't get me wrong, I haven't given up on people but having a conversation, reading a forum post, putting a sign on the sink might only make a difference if the person is inclined to follow the advice/suggestion/reflect on actions and intentions of their own accord.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

BigDaddyNY said:


> I'm sure it is safe to say that women in this scenario are all going to appear to be responsive desire. They will never initiate sex, so they can only be responsive. If they are good at faking it I guess the the husband may never be able to tell the difference between RD and simply not being attracted to them. I find it hard to believe that the men can't sense the lack of passion and enthusiasm in their wives. Reading some of the comments from that article shows that many of them are very unhappy have zero sexual desire for their husbands. I don't see how that does come through when being intimate. Maybe the guys are blind or choose not to acknowledge it.
> 
> My wife is almost always RD, but there are times she will initiate or give me some hint that I should be initiating. However, her passion is very clear even when I was the one to initiate. It hasn't happened often, but there have been times when she clearly wasn't into it and for me there is no better boner killer than her not being fully into it. She is my only point of reference, but I don't believe the majority of RD women simply aren't into their man. I think it is just female behavior in general that they need to get properly turned on before they are thinking about sex.


I’m losing track of what men we are talking about, and tbh I did not carefully read the comments from that external link.

FWIW, my wife has made it very clear there is no desire. Explicitly with words. Implicitly with actions.

One could say, there has been responsiveness, at least during a long portion of our declining marriage. But rarely any evidence of desire.

One recent exception is her declaration that introducing weed into her pre-sex routine makes her “almost” want to do it.

But I’ll confess, upon first hearing of this “responsive desire” thing, I sure wanted it to be a key that unlocked a solution, or made this **** sandwich more palatable. Like a lot of things that pop up in the relative-HD’s brain to consider, pursue, make fit. But, given time and some real-world trial-run experience with it, the fog of invested hope lifts again.

Awareness does not solve anything. I suppose lots of people are in marriages where they are essentially being used, for reasons they’d not want. Whether that’s enough reason to split, or if there are overriding reasons to endure, is a separate issue. Even so, too bad anyone uses anyone. It’s a waste of living.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

@sokillme,

That author declared her censorship policy upfront, and it was a bit awkward to hear her fake-friendly put down of one of the few dissenters.

Also, I would assume the regular readers there are fairly aligned with her thoughts.

But what I really wanted to say is: I truly appreciate the women of TAM, especially the subset of them who are vocal with their belief that sex is an important part of marriage for many, and it is decent and honorable thing for one partner to have sexual wants and needs involving participation from the other. You are the antidote to gaslighting, inexperience and confusion, and a reason one could reasonably expect to find better compatibility somewhere. You didnt owe anyone that. But I truly am grateful.

And for those women here who have suffered in loneliness, from their partners indifference to their needs for intimacy, I say: that’s truly tragic; other outcomes are possible with other partners; don’t stop wanting and expecting to attain better for yourself.


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## WorldTravler1980 (11 mo ago)

sokillme said:


> So I came across this post today on a blog and I think men need to understand this stuff. Read the comments as well. This will probably be a difficult read for some but I think it's important for guys stuck in this situation to understand - AND ASK YOUR WIFE POINT BLANK if she feels that way.
> 
> If you read the comments it become clear that lots of these women don't even think about the loss that there husbands face by being married to them. They pat themselves on the back for keeping their family together while talking about the great sacrifice they made just by allowing themselves to be touched. I don't know about you, but if my wife felt this way about me I would want to know so I could divorce her.
> 
> ...


These type of women get cheated on or dropped in the end. Eventually the guy gets wise to what's going on and leaves. Then these women are left to flounder from man-to-man.

I was married to a woman like this for a few years. It was gut wrenching and soul-sucking, especially because she wasn't a prize to begin with. She constantly belittled me and wrote off my feelings anytime I was upset about something and was not emotionally supportive at all.

Towards the end of our marriage I became really close with a coworker, nothing untoward going on but we would chat at work and she was always supportive of me. She messaged me at home a few times in regards to work related things and my ex became insanely jealous (even when I showed her all the messages) and accused me of having an affair. I filed for divorce a month later. It was like a weight had been lifted off my shoulders.

I dated around for a couple of years afterwards but never really made a connection with anyone. I started a new job a few years ago and met a coworker who I had a literal instant connection with. We began dating and it is a breath of fresh air to be with someone who supports me, who is literally my peace (I feel completely at peace in her presence), and is kind to me. Its nice to be given back what I give to someone.

My ex saw us while we were at dinner about a year ago. I didn't notice it but she texted me that night and said she had seen me eating dinner with my girlfriend and how happy I looked. I don't know what else she was going to say as I blocked her messages immediately.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

My post wasn't directed at anyone here, just my frustration in general.


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## CrAzYdOgLaDy (Mar 22, 2021)

Commenting so I remember to come back later, and read after I've had a sleep.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

PieceOfSky said:


> I’m losing track of what men we are talking about, and tbh I did not carefully read the comments from that external link.
> 
> FWIW, my wife has made it very clear there is no desire. Explicitly with words. Implicitly with actions.
> 
> ...


Responsive desire and no desire are obviously not the same. I don't think you can overcome no desire. Is it that your wife has no sexual desire or no sexual desire for you? Why do you stay in that situation?


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## allensmith775 (12 mo ago)

sokillme said:


> So I came across this post today on a blog and I think men need to understand this stuff. Read the comments as well. This will probably be a difficult read for some but I think it's important for guys stuck in this situation to understand - AND ASK YOUR WIFE POINT BLANK if she feels that way.
> 
> If you read the comments it become clear that lots of these women don't even think about the loss that there husbands face by being married to them. They pat themselves on the back for keeping their family together while talking about the great sacrifice they made just by allowing themselves to be touched. I don't know about you, but if my wife felt this way about me I would want to know so I could divorce her.
> 
> ...


It is because they married a guy just to get married - not because they loved him. Many women who get over a certain age (30ish) marry to get married. The ex-boyfriend does not want to marry them, just F them and they are willing to marry even Mickey Mouse just to get married. They don't love this man, who they married, and thus feel no sexual attraction to him. They felt sexual attraction to their ex. Many marriages are like this. Ever hear the phrase, I love my husband. It is never , I am in love with my husband is it. Think about it.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

sokillme said:


> My post wasn't directed at anyone here, just my frustration in general.


FWIW, I did interpret you that way - that it wasn't directed at anyone here.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

TexasMom1216 said:


> I don't think it's that sex isn't important to them, I think they've been conditioned to believe it's a job or a chore and frankly, no one has ever made their toes curl. OR, it's that sex with THEIR HUSBAND isn't important to them.


The thing is, why does a person lie to their spouse about this basic foundation of a marriage. I mean, if she isn't "into him", why not just rip the bandage off, tell him he sucks in bed and file for divorce. Why continue to abuse another human being? To USE another human. The article that was basis for this thread was written by and favorably commented on by EVIL women. And anyone with integrity should have been shaming them hard. 



PieceOfSky said:


> FWIW, my wife has made it very clear there is no desire. Explicitly with words. Implicitly with actions.


Your wife has some integrity. She told you she has no desire for you. She didn't moan and carry on during sex, faking orgasms while all the while cringing at your touch because she likes the lifestyle you provide, trying to make you think she is "into you". She told you the facts. So now you have the agency to decide how to deal with those facts. 

The truth will ALWAYS eventually become known, it is what truth does, bubbles to the surface eventually. Honesty is the best policy, otherwise you continue to get what you don't like.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

Rus47 said:


> The thing is, why does a person lie to their spouse about this basic foundation of a marriage. I mean, if she isn't "into him", why not just rip the bandage off, tell him he sucks in bed to abuse another human being? To USE another human. The article that was basis for this thread was written by and favorably commented on by EVIL women. And anyone with integrity should have been shaming them hard.


You know why.....money and security


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## theloveofmylife (Jan 5, 2021)

allensmith775 said:


> Ever hear the phrase, I love my husband. It is never , I am in love with my husband is it. Think about it.


I am in love with my husband.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Rus47 said:


> The thing is, why does a person lie to their spouse about this basic foundation of a marriage. I mean, if she isn't "into him", why not just rip the bandage off, tell him he sucks in bed and file for divorce. Why continue to abuse another human being? To USE another human. The article that was basis for this thread was written by and favorably commented on by EVIL women. And anyone with integrity should have been shaming them hard.


I have to admit I didn’t read the article or the comments because I was sure it would infuriate me. You’re right, there are people out there who just use other people and it’s unspeakably cruel.


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## Jamieboy (Jan 14, 2021)

There is a worse type than the one in the article I think, the ones who let their husbands know through their actions that they don't desire them, but when challenged, will swear up is down that they are attracted to them, but they are just too tired, busy, etc etc. 

Those types are true abusers and users imo, because they will string the game along for as long as they can.


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## Bluesclues (Mar 30, 2016)

I wonder how many of the women that commented on the blog are actually experiencing a rewriting of history, opposed to knowingly marrying someone they weren’t attracted to at all. Unlike the OP, most indicated distress and confusion about their lack of desire, not contentment. They wondered if there was something wrong with them until they suddenly became interested in an OM. Being attracted to someone else was taken as proof that the issue lies with the attraction to the husband and not them. If they went with the OM the same would happen eventually because the issue is with them. I realize the outcome is the same for the spouse, but there is a big difference between having messed up thought processes and being evil.


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## Jamieboy (Jan 14, 2021)

Bluesclues said:


> I wonder how many of the women that commented on the blog are actually experiencing a rewriting of history, opposed to knowingly marrying someone they weren’t attracted to at all. Unlike the OP, most indicated distress and confusion about their lack of desire, not contentment. They wondered if there was something wrong with them until they suddenly became interested in an OM. Being attracted to someone else was taken as proof that the issue lies with the attraction to the husband and not them. If they went with the OM the same would happen eventually because the issue is with them. I realize the outcome is the same for the spouse, but there is a big difference between having messed up thought processes and being evil.


Totally agree


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

Bluesclues said:


> I wonder how many of the women that commented on the blog are actually experiencing a rewriting of history, opposed to knowingly marrying someone they weren’t attracted to at all. Unlike the OP, most indicated distress and confusion about their lack of desire, not contentment. They wondered if there was something wrong with them until they suddenly became interested in an OM. Being attracted to someone else was taken as proof that the issue lies with the attraction to the husband and not them. If they went with the OM the same would happen eventually because the issue is with them. I realize the outcome is the same for the spouse, but there is a big difference between having messed up thought processes and being evil.


They would also be attracted by the forbidden. For the most part, if they did marry the OM, they would find themselves just as unattracted to them as they did to their husbands, because it wasn't the husband but the forbiddingness that attracted them.


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## aaarghdub (Jul 15, 2017)

Rus47 said:


> The thing is, why does a person lie to their spouse about this basic foundation of a marriage. I mean, if she isn't "into him", why not just rip the bandage off, tell him he sucks in bed and file for divorce. Why continue to abuse another human being? To USE another human.


1) Because you don’t want to be broke and alone 
2) Because you do to want to be the only one of your friends broke and alone. 

There’s a lot of “keeping up with the Joneses” amongst women. First boyfriend, engagement, baby, house, etc. It’s a cruel world out there and men are objectified as providers no less than women are sexually.

In another thread awhile ago, it was mentioned during MC to the spouse who liked sex but just wasn’t into anymore was asked pint blank if she were willing to lose half her wealth and half of the time with their kids not have to sex anymore. Makes you evaluate life choices for sure.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

aaarghdub said:


> 1) Because you don’t want to be broke and alone
> 2) Because you do to want to be the only one of your friends broke and alone.


Well, the man might indeed be "broke and alone". But I was thinking about the woman not "into" her husband. In a divorce, the woman is going to come out well, hit the jackpot. And if she is halfway presentable, she won't have any trouble finding as many BF as she cares to handle. Wife and I know several older divorced and widow older women, took them no time to "partner" up.

The key is for her to stop dangling the husband she doesn't want over the abyss and let him go to live his life as best he can, For her to do otherwise is just evil.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

I tried to post a comment on that blog and guess what, it got shot down. Here is what I tried to post: 

_I think is it at least disappointing, and at worst disgusting that there seems to be an acceptance that this is an okay situation in a marriage. It may be okay if both partners are in the know and agree to the situation, but if one is hiding the fact that they aren’t sexually attracted to their spouse, that I see as a major betrayal. It is made worse if there is faking going on. Who are you really protecting by hiding your feelings? Are you protecting your oblivious husband that thinks he has a wife that is all in with him or are you protecting your comfortable lifestyle and the status quo?

What is really mind blowing is that so many think it is okay to continue having children with the man you aren’t attracted to. He is totally being used. Yeah, you may “love” him, but you are using him as a tool. Is that really how you truly, deeply, love someone? If you actually loved these men you would tell the truth and let them decide what they want in their life. Are they okay with being besties and co-parents, or do they want a wife that truly loves them on all levels? Shouldn’t you set them free with full knowledge of the situation they are in?

Now, the really disgusting comments are those from “wives” that are craving intimacy from some one, or worse, found someone they have that chemistry with. You are all cowards that are afraid to do the difficult, but right thing. Now you have thoughts of further betrayal of you marriage. Some have even acted on those thoughts and strayed into infidelity. How does everyone not see this is an immoral way to live and to treat the man you supposedly love? _

I noticed several new comments pop up after I had tried to post, so I wrote another post, same content, but asked why it hadn't posted. To my surprise she responded, with this:

_To the person asking why I’ve not published their comment, perhaps you missed this disclaimer:

I moderate your comments. Anything constructive or supportive is always published. Any comments I deem to be otherwise will be deleted. This is not a platform for criticism – it’s a positive space for sharing and connecting and I will monitor and censor accordingly._

So, no real interest in an intellectual discussion, just allowed to give each other affirmation. There was one man that had a post published which didn't align with her views, but the only reason it was published was so she could refute his religious beliefs. I guess I really shouldn't be surprised that they are interested in any diversity of views.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> I moderate your comments. Anything constructive or supportive is always published. Any comments I deem to be otherwise will be deleted.


Interesting.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

BigDaddyNY said:


> I tried to post a comment on that blog and guess what, it got shot down. Here is what I tried to post:
> 
> _I think is it at least disappointing, and at worst disgusting that there seems to be an acceptance that this is an okay situation in a marriage. It may be okay if both partners are in the know and agree to the situation, but if one is hiding the fact that they aren’t sexually attracted to their spouse, that I see as a major betrayal. It is made worse if there is faking going on. Who are you really protecting by hiding your feelings? Are you protecting your oblivious husband that thinks he has a wife that is all in with him or are you protecting your comfortable lifestyle and the status quo?
> 
> ...


Sycophant corner. No interest for this barbarian.


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## Jamieboy (Jan 14, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> I tried to post a comment on that blog and guess what, it got shot down. Here is what I tried to post:
> 
> _I think is it at least disappointing, and at worst disgusting that there seems to be an acceptance that this is an okay situation in a marriage. It may be okay if both partners are in the know and agree to the situation, but if one is hiding the fact that they aren’t sexually attracted to their spouse, that I see as a major betrayal. It is made worse if there is faking going on. Who are you really protecting by hiding your feelings? Are you protecting your oblivious husband that thinks he has a wife that is all in with him or are you protecting your comfortable lifestyle and the status quo?
> 
> ...


What you have run into there my friend is the hard wall of the extreme left feminist echo chamber 😉


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

sokillme said:


> So I came across this post today on a blog and I think men need to understand this stuff. Read the comments as well. This will probably be a difficult read for some but I think it's important for guys stuck in this situation to understand - AND ASK YOUR WIFE POINT BLANK if she feels that way.
> 
> If you read the comments it become clear that lots of these women don't even think about the loss that there husbands face by being married to them. They pat themselves on the back for keeping their family together while talking about the great sacrifice they made just by allowing themselves to be touched. I don't know about you, but if my wife felt this way about me I would want to know so I could divorce her.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the post and an interesting read. I have had thoughts about this before.

As someone who was in a sex starved marriage. As someone whose wife actually said to me after we finished sex therapy, "would you really have divorced me, it was only sex?" As someone whose wife told me that "she had no sexual desire for me, and then when she saw she had hurt my feelings, quickly added she had no sexual desire for anybody." As a man who when he was in a sex starved marriage wondered if the reason my wife told me we needed to get married was that she wanted desperately (in a socially acceptable way) to get out of her father's and mother's house and into a more favorable living situation with a guy that treated her well, who obviously sexually desired her, was a good friend, and had good financial prospects.

Have also read a number of articles that can be paraphrased as "stop looking for Mr. Perfect and settle for someone who is good enough." This read reminded me of that advice.

The article was thought provoking. In my case, I do feel that once upon a time that the woman who became my wife, actually either found me sexually attractive, or that she was overwhelmed by her enjoyment of her own sexual discovery she encountered with me. Over time that woman fell out of love with me or tired of her role in the relationship. I believe she did sexually desire me at one time and that after sex therapy, she worked on herself to rekindle that sexual desire.

After sex therapy and a lot of sole searching and some additional marriage counseling "tune-ups." I feel that we now have a better real mutual understanding of each other and what each of us needs in marriage. We have negotiated and found a relationship that works for each of us, that contains love and sex, mutual respect, fun things, and joy.

There was one line in the article that just about broke my heart in reading......


> And actually I could quite happily have a platonic relationship forever – cuddles in front of the TV and our clearly defined sides of the bed.
> 
> But I know he wants more than that – he *gets* more than that – it’s just me that feels like there’s something missing. And I don’t know what to do about it.


I identify with that line, I have been on that sofa in front of the TV. I have "gotten more" from that woman, even though I put my heart and soul into trying to satisfy and stimulate her......trying to light her fire of passion.

In reading that line, I think about *Schrödinger's* *cat* and if the cat in the box is dead or is that ***** alive and lustful? In some ways you can't ever really know what a person is thinking unless they tell you. And even then if might be true or false or totally dependent upon the moment you "open the box." So you never know if Schrodinger's ***** lusts for you sexually or if she is just putting on an illusion for your benefit. Actually, that is pretty much true about everything in life.

Again, thanks for sharing. I actually know people who got married without sexual desire. I have a relative who dated and loved a woman, who really wasn't attracted to the computer geek he was. He asked her to marry him and every time she told him no. Eventually, she gave up and said yes. They have been married over 30 years. There kids grew up and left the nest. They are now really into their dogs and taking them to dog obedience and agility events. For all outward appearances they seem to have a nice life together. I have never witnessed much in the way of public displays of affection, but they seem happy together. In other cultures, with arranged marriages, they would probably be considered a very successful marriage.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Young at Heart said:


> Thanks for the post and an interesting read. I have had thoughts about this before.
> 
> As someone who was in a sex starved marriage. As someone whose wife actually said to me after we finished sex therapy, "would you really have divorced me, it was only sex?" As someone whose wife told me that "she had no sexual desire for me, and then when she saw she had hurt my feelings, quickly added she had no sexual desire for anybody." As a man who when he was in a sex starved marriage wondered if the reason my wife told me we needed to get married was that she wanted desperately (in a socially acceptable way) to get out of her father's and mother's house and into a more favorable living situation with a guy that treated her well, who obviously sexually desired her, was a good friend, and had good financial prospects.
> 
> ...


I am really conflicted about being brutally honest or not, I guess it never stopped me before so. As someone who had read post like yours a lot, often it turns out it's not that they are not into sex, it's just that they are not into sex with you. All it takes is one person and it all changes, and I have reads that story 100s of times. Once it happens look out.

So your Schrödinger's cat theory doesn't work because it presumes the situation is static, it's not. Generally speaking I believe sexless marriage or even practically sexless is unsustainable. It's not marriage, at best it's a really good friendship and financial partnership.

Listen I certainly can be wrong and I know that is not fun to read, it's not fun to write, but it's definitely a risk.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

sokillme said:


> I am really conflicted about being brutally honest or not, I guess it never stopped me before so. As someone who had read post like yours a lot, often it turns out it's not that they are not into sex, it's just that they are not into sex with you. All it takes is one person and it all changes, and I have reads that story 100s of times. Once it happens look out.
> 
> So your Schrödinger's cat theory doesn't work because it presumes the situation is static, it's not. Generally speaking I believe sexless marriage or even practically sexless is unsustainable. It's not marriage, at best it's a really good friendship and financial partnership.
> 
> Listen I certainly can be wrong and I know that is not fun to read, it's not fun to write, but it's definitely a risk.


Actually, I think that my wife really did sexually desire me very much for part of our relationship.

I think for many reasons she feel out of love with me. Then with professional help, we rekindled the love in our relationship. I agree, when sex dwindles, the change of affairs increases dramatically.

And yes, some marriages are just financial partnerships, or as seemed to become the Tik-tok thing co-parenting assignments.

P.S. The same website you first posted had a more blunt article.

Can you have a fulfilling sex life without being attracted to your husband?

Yes, another sad state of affairs and advice.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Young at Heart said:


> Actually, I think that my wife really did sexually desire me very much for part of our relationship.
> 
> I think for many reasons she feel out of love with me. Then with professional help, we rekindled the love in our relationship. I agree, when sex dwindles, the change of affairs increases dramatically.
> 
> ...


Imagine being this women's husband. He must feel like a ogre.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

TexasMom1216 said:


> Interesting.


They are "in the bubble" as Bill Maher would put it. Their root assumption is those relationship choices are okay and, by extension, they deserve the benefits of marriage (esteem, family, security, companionship) because of what they went through.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

I've been thinking about sexual attraction and whether it can develop from my perspective as a woman.

A lot of women assume that if sparks don't fly immediately that means they're not attracted and they make no further effort. IME men go into one of 2 buckets initially.....the would never sleep with bucket or the might possibly sleep with bucket.

Bucket 2 can include everyone from would definitely sleep with to might possibly sleep with. As long as you're in bucket 2 a lot of things are possible.

When I met my bf he was in the might possibly sleep with camp. Pretty much nobody gets more then that initially from me because i need to know a little more about you to decide how attracted i am....nobody is having sex with me on the first date.

i did think he was cute but didn't give it much thought until I had some opportunities to talk to him. I found him interesting and started to consider the possibility of something between us.

It took a few months before we went out but by then sparks had started to develop for me (can't speak for him). It's been a few years now and I think he's incredibly sexy.

My point is that I wonder if sone of these women, when they didn't experience immediate sparks, just assumed there was no sexual attraction and closed themselves off to the possibility. If so that's sad because both of them could have so much more.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

lifeistooshort said:


> I've been thinking about sexual attraction and whether it can develop from my perspective as a woman.
> 
> A lot of women assume that if sparks don't fly immediately that means they're not attracted and they make no further effort. IME men go into one of 2 buckets initially.....the would never sleep with bucket or the might possibly sleep with bucket.
> 
> ...


I like reading of the good place you're in within yourself and your relationship.

Your point at the end is a tricky/confusing one to me. And I think the reason why is that if it's possible that they closed themselves off to the possibility and assumed sexual attraction wasn't occurring, why continue? And from your experience - meaning applying that view to the scenario raised - doesn't sound like he was ever in their bucket 2. The flipside ofcourse is there's plenty who start out in bucket 2 and prioritize sex when the rest of the relationship dynamic is rubbish.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

heartsbeating said:


> I like reading of the good place you're in within yourself and your relationship.
> 
> Your point at the end is a tricky/confusing one to me. And I think the reason why is that if it's possible that they closed themselves off to the possibility and assumed sexual attraction wasn't occurring, why continue? And from your experience - meaning applying that view to the scenario raised - doesn't sound like he was ever in their bucket 2. The flipside ofcourse is there's plenty who start out in bucket 2 and prioritize sex when the rest of the relationship dynamic is rubbish.


Good point. I was sort of thinking out loud.....to your point we all know women who don't prioritize sex. We're still raised to consider other things much more.

Once you put a mental block in place it's hard to get around....maybe they just assumed it wasn't there but decided he'd be a good partner and the sex part gets pushed back to as required. I agree that this kind of thinking is unfair but i also think it's more common then many men realize. I was considering the possibility that some attraction could be there if they opened their mind to it but maybe that's unlikely.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

lifeistooshort said:


> I've been thinking about sexual attraction and whether it can develop from my perspective as a woman.
> 
> A lot of women assume that if sparks don't fly immediately that means they're not attracted and they make no further effort. IME men go into one of 2 buckets initially.....the would never sleep with bucket or the might possibly sleep with bucket.
> 
> ...


Limerence is a hell of a drug. 

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

I briefly scanned the comments following that blog post and was surprised to not see one cautionary tale of "don't stay just for security, because if he leaves you're toast" or "thinking you can keep it going doesn't mean you can". Even if the guy doesn't know exactly what's wrong, he still can get fed up and leave. Some of those commenters (and the author of the article) seem to think they can tough it out and wait for a time of their choosing to leave.

Personally, I had made plans to leave many years before my ex did, and I only didn't because my son developed and then passed from cancer. I'm sure my ex thought she had me wrapped and could keep it going too. In reality she came _this close_ to becoming a 50% single mom to two kids she would have struggled to care for.

I can't imagine I'm the only one.


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

DTO said:


> I briefly scanned the comments and was surprised to not see one cautionary tale of "don't stay just for security, because if he leaves you're toast" or "just because you think you can keep it going doesn't mean you can". Sometimes, even if the guy doesn't know exactly what's wrong, he can get fed up and leave. Some of those commenters (and the anonymous author of the article) seem to think they can just tough it out and wait for a time of their choosing to leave.
> 
> Personally, I had made plans to leave many years before my ex did, and I only didn't because my son developed and then passed from cancer. I'm sure my ex thought she had me wrapped and could keep it going too. In reality she came _this close_ to becoming a 50% single mom to two kids she would have struggled to care for.


I'm sorry to hear about your son.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> I'm sorry to hear about your son.


Thank you.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

sokillme said:


> Imagine being this women's husband. He must feel like a ogre.


Are you talking about the woman who rote the article and her husband? I would expect if that is the case he would either be oblivious or he would have a strong anger against her. I can think of a lot of terms but ogre isn't one of them.



> *Definition of ogre*
> 1*: *a hideous giant of fairy tales and folklore that feeds on human beings *: *monster
> 2*: *a dreaded person or object


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

lifeistooshort said:


> Good point. I was sort of thinking out loud.....to your point we all know women who don't prioritize sex. We're still raised to consider other things much more.
> 
> Once you put a mental block in place it's hard to get around....maybe they just assumed it wasn't there but decided he'd be a good partner and the sex part gets pushed back to as required. I agree that this kind of thinking is unfair but i also think it's more common then many men realize. I was considering the possibility that some attraction could be there if they opened their mind to it but maybe that's unlikely.


Good point back-atcha. Reflecting on what you wrote here and previously, in that you experienced more of a lead-up to dating your man, I feel like I get more where you are coming from.

Also drawing from personal experience, my husband and I spoke over the phone before meeting or dating. I think we spoke once a week across several weeks, I can't really remember. What connected us to speak in the first place was basically shared interests / music. We hit it off over the phone, and arranged to meet casually. Hop-skip-and-jump ahead to then our first date. While mutual physical attraction was shared upon meeting, really that 'in-person spark' developed more _after_ our first (and very brief) meeting. When starting to date, there was already a baseline of shared interests and rapport, and which naturally evolved to a deeper level of attraction. Although we weren't particularly thinking too much ahead.

Even if the 'sparks' are there at the start, to me, that deeper attraction occurs with really getting to know one another, and typically from being more embedded in daily life together. I share all this to say that while I personally don't think one ought to continue if attraction is not there, what you are saying is also valid.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

sokillme said:


> It's marriage, it's not the person who is just there to make you feel good about yourself.


I may express myself in silly ways here sometimes, yet no doubt I absolutely value the depth of experience that my husband and I share in together. We know each others flaws, and challenges, and strengths and all that jazz that sounds like a bumper sticker when I write it out; and like most humans, we've had various stuff to deal with in life that may test our resilience. What I'm trying to express is that I absolutely agree with what you wrote above.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

heartsbeating said:


> Good point back-atcha. Reflecting on what you wrote here and previously, in that you experienced more of a lead-up to dating your man, I feel like I get more where you are coming from.
> 
> Also drawing from personal experience, my husband and I spoke over the phone before meeting or dating. I think we spoke once a week across several weeks, I can't really remember. What connected us to speak in the first place was basically shared interests / music. We hit it off over the phone, and arranged to meet casually. Hop-skip-and-jump ahead to then our first date. While mutual physical attraction was shared upon meeting, really that 'in-person spark' developed more _after_ our first (and very brief) meeting. When starting to date, there was already a baseline of shared interests and rapport, and which naturally evolved to a deeper level of attraction. Although we weren't particularly thinking too much ahead.
> 
> Even if the 'sparks' are there at the start, to me, that deeper attraction occurs with really getting to know one another, and typically from being more embedded in daily life together. I share all this to say that while I personally don't think one ought to continue if attraction is not there, what you are saying is also valid.


I do think a reasonable timeline should be applied. If you've given it a month and still aren't feeling it then best to move on.

Hearing from a number of people in arranged marriages would be helpful here. They are set up based on business considerations just like women looking for a good partner but I have to think that sexual attraction develops in at least a few of them. It would be interesting to know how that happens, especially if it really wasn't there initially.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

lifeistooshort said:


> Hearing from a number of people in arranged marriages would be helpful here. They are set up based on business considerations just like women looking for a good partner but I have to think that sexual attraction develops in at least a few of them. It would be interesting to know how that happens, especially if it really wasn't there initially.


They developed the Kama Sutra for a reason


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## KayJC (5 mo ago)

Having worked in a business office for 25+ years I was frequently appalled by the younger women who would gather in the break room and then quite efficiently shred their husbands to the other gals around. Meaning talking disrespectfully, mocking, many times cruelly. I flat out could not believe a wife would trash her husband in such a manner. You may have issues in your marriage but it is extremely poor taste to air those issues with everyone else. And that road runs both ways. I would never have talked about my late husband in such a deragatory tone. I felt that would been very disrespectful of the guy I had been married to for decades, the father of my children. And the sad part is for the most those husbands appeared to be good guys. Too many wives or at least some are far too full of this "entitlement" stuff.


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