# Target removes Grand Theft Auto from its stores



## Holland

I was so glad to see this on the news this morning. It is sickening to me that such a game with its violence and sexual violence against women is considered entertainment. 

GTA5: Target Australia bans Grand Theft Auto V: petition


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## norajane

So this is what passes for fun? And has people so addicted they stay up playing video games instead of having sex with their partner?

I'm glad women are speaking out, though I fear Target's loss is Amazon's gain. But good on Target for their support.


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## GusPolinski

Good. Now if we could just get everyone else to follow suit.


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## Moops

Most of the violence in the Grand Theft Auto series is man on man violence.

Sexual violence and violence against women make up a small minority of all the violence in the game.

Grand Theft Auto doesnt encourage players to “commit sexual violence and kill women”. It encourages players to be violent towards everybody.


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## norajane

Moops said:


> Most of the violence in the Grand Theft Auto series is man on man violence.
> 
> Sexual violence and violence against women make up a small minority of all the violence in the game.
> 
> Grand Theft Auto doesnt encourage players to “commit sexual violence and kill women”. It encourages players to be violent towards everybody.


That doesn't make the game sound any better nor more acceptable to me.


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## Nynaeve

My husband bought me GTA V as soon as it came out. He knows how to get in my pants.  

Seriously, though, there are some parts of it that I didn't like. There was a torture scene that pissed me off. But there are also parts that are really fun to play. I don't think it's as bad as some people make out as far as violence against women goes.


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## norajane

Nynaeve said:


> My husband bought me GTA V as soon as it came out. He knows how to get in my pants.
> 
> Seriously, though, there are some parts of it that I didn't like. There was a torture scene that pissed me off. But there are also parts that are really fun to play. I don't think it's as bad as some people make out as far as violence against women goes.


What about violence against men?


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## Moops

norajane said:


> That doesn't make the game sound any better nor more acceptable to me.


Fair enough. But I don't think it's right to moralize about what people do on their spare time as long as it doesnt hurt anybody else.

In the 50's rock n roll music was the devil. In the 70's and 80's it was hard rock music and slasher movies. Now it's video games.

All those people who are now blasting Grand Theft Auto and is calling for it to be taken of the shelves, have you actually played the game?


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## Nynaeve

norajane said:


> What about violence against men?


Oh, there's lots of violence. Lots of killing, beating up, etc. Rampant drug use and crime, too. 

But a lot of people paint the GTA franchise as particularly misogynistic or something. I've never really felt that to be the case. It can be kind of sexist, true, but I wouldn't say it's a huge component of the game. I would like to see a GTA game with a woman protagonist. That would be cool.

Personally, I didn't like GTA V as much as the earlier games. San Andreas was my favorite. I think it was a lot tamer.


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## norajane

Nynaeve said:


> Oh, there's lots of violence. Lots of killing, beating up, etc. Rampant drug use and crime, too.
> 
> But a lot of people paint the GTA franchise as particularly misogynistic or something. I've never really felt that to be the case. It can be kind of sexist, true, but I wouldn't say it's a huge component of the game. I would like to see a GTA game with a woman protagonist. That would be cool.
> 
> Personally, I didn't like GTA V as much as the earlier games. San Andreas was my favorite. I think it was a lot tamer.


What is the appeal of all the violence? Being able to put yourself in a realistic setting where you kill, beat up, etc. sounds like it's meant to give you as realistic an experience as you can get. Why is that appealing?

There are other games of skill and challenge that don't require putting yourself in the drivers seat so you can run people over. Aren't there? Please tell me they aren't all like this.


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## richardsharpe

Good evening all
I believe that healthy people can tell the difference between real and pretend violence. 

Just because I enjoy Star Wars doesn't mean that I really want to destroy inhabited planets. (not saying that I don't....)

I have not problem with violent games or movies.


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## Jellybeans

Holland said:


> It is sickening to me that such a game with its violence and sexual violence against women is considered entertainment.


So much stuff with violence toward women are considered entertainment. Eminem's entire new album is about hating on women yet people buy that stuff all the time.


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## Nynaeve

norajane said:


> What is the appeal of all the violence? Being able to put yourself in a realistic setting where you kill, beat up, etc. sounds like it's meant to give you as realistic an experience as you can get. Why is that appealing?
> 
> There are other games of skill and challenge that don't require putting yourself in the drivers seat so you can run people over. Aren't there? Please tell me they aren't all like this.


Well, for me, the violence isn't the appealing part. The challenge of the missions, the game-play, is the appealing part. I especially like the driving, flying, etc. The timed challenges. I do like the shooting stuff because that takes a certain amount of skill to aim and fire, run and shoot, etc. When it gets too violent, it often makes me squirm. I just try to tune out that part and focus on the challenge.

There are other games that offer some amount of the same challenges without the gratuitous violence. But I would sat that GTA is unrivaled in some areas. The open-world stuff, the side missions, and the sheer amount of game there is to play aren't really offered in any other games.


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## Cletus

norajane said:


> What is the appeal of all the violence? Being able to put yourself in a realistic setting where you kill, beat up, etc. sounds like it's meant to give you as realistic an experience as you can get. Why is that appealing?


I'll try to help here as best I can.

When I was in grade school, we played a game on the back of the bus. It didn't have a name that I recall, but it went like this: You punch your buddy softly in the arm. He punches you back, a little harder. You reciprocate. This continues until one of you can't take the pain any longer - and let me tell you, it can hurt and leave huge bruises.

We used to play football on the playground. The playground was asphalt. One day I took stitches in the back of my head because we decided to play tackle football on asphalt.

I had an acquaintance in school who bullied me relentlessly for a week. He'd trip me, shove my face into the drinking fountain, throw my books on the floor... One day I'd had enough and popped him in the jaw (I still to this day believe the nuns running the school allowed the fight to happen). After we'd bloodied each others shirts, he wanted to be my best friend. 

Testosterone is a terrible thing, may you never have to experience its full effects. The allure of GTA for young men is that it allows them to behave in ways for which they have a primal urge without actually going out and causing mayhem.


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## Holland

So having online sex, murder and violence towards women is a primal urge for some men. That is vile and not a world that I want my kids growing up in.


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## Cletus

Holland said:


> So having online sex, murder and violence towards women is a primal urge for some men. That is vile and not a world that I want my kids growing up in.


No, that misses the point, and completely trivializes what I'm saying. Which I'll presume for the sake of argument is MY fault.

Is growing up in a castle with all of you needs attended to by a fawning staff with a chiseled feature husband on a white horse a primal urge for women? Since there is only one princess but hundreds of servants, that doesn't sound like a world in which I want MY kids growing up in.

Boys want to rough it up. Act out. Enjoy a little rough and tumble. Bend or break a few laws. GTA is a reflection of that reality. It's a safe and risk free version of an inherently unsafe and stupid activity - just like playing paint ball, which my son and I did together, is a pseudo-realistic but safe way to play at war. Which, btw, did not translate into any of us wanting to go off in the real world and shoot real people with real bullets.

You may also note that I am not defending GTA, only trying to explain why it is appealing to young men. You can frowny-face on my input all day long if you like, but your moralizing about it doesn't make it inaccurate.


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## ConanHub

I will be shopping at Target more.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Fozzy

I'm surprised it was on sale in Australia in the first place, given their tendencies toward censorship.


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## Trojan John

The game has been out for over a year and they made over 800 million USD in the first day. Good luck getting developers to change much less take notice.


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## ConanHub

Trojan John said:


> The game has been out for over a year and they made over 800 million USD in the first day. Good luck getting developers to change much less take notice.


Stupid sells but I'm not buying.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Fozzy

Not a huge fan of GTA either, but I don't like being told what I can and can't play or watch.

GTA is clearly marked as a title that is inappropriate for children. It's meant to be sold to adults, for adults. I do not welcome Target making arbitrary value judgment about what media I should be consuming as an adult. If Target wants to restrict sales to minors--good on them. Furthermore, I can virtually guarantee that Target is still selling other titles that are comparably bad, but have not received the media attention that GTA has.

This is a publicity stunt.


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## RandomDude

You... have... to... be... kidding me 

Holland, please play the game or watch the game be played before you jump to conclusions.


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## RandomDude

Now as for the case of violence in games, yes I enjoy driving down sidewalks running over anything in my path and having cops chasing me while I do so 

As I enjoy it, I must be doing it in real life yes? At the very least I must be encouraged to do so correct? Sheez

Reminds me of that shooting in America a while back where someone found a video game and then the media outlets proceeded to blame the game :slap:

Millions of happy gamers, and one owner of the game goes on a rampage... it MUST BE THE VIDEO GAME!!!!


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## ConanHub

Fozzy said:


> Not a huge fan of GTA either, but I don't like being told what I can and can't play or watch.
> 
> GTA is clearly marked as a title that is inappropriate for children. It's meant to be sold to adults, for adults. I do not welcome Target making arbitrary value judgment about what media I should be consuming as an adult. If Target wants to restrict sales to minors--good on them. Furthermore, I can virtually guarantee that Target is still selling other titles that are comparably bad, but have not received the media attention that GTA has.
> 
> This is a publicity stunt.


Target is not telling you what you can watch or play. They are simply not selling or promoting a product. I agree with you on the likely hood of the publicity angle. I will still do more shopping there. They are catering to me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Fozzy

Be sure to check in the video section to see if they removed all copies of The Human Centipede.


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## Fozzy

oops, never mind.

The Human Centipede: Full Sequence (D) (Widescreen) : Target

and gosh, it doesnt appear that Target's morality police extends it's long arm to the U.S.

Grand Theft Auto V (PlayStation 3) : Target


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## Runs like Dog

I don't know. I suspect in part some of the cop vs street people violence you see is people who literally cannot understand the reality of the situation they're in. As if all they have to do is beat someone down in the street and they'll go away. I can remember watching a movie called "The Wild and Wonderful Whites of West Virginia" (documentary) where this guy, who, after having been in and out of jail most of his life, got in an 8 hr shootout/standoff with the FBI and who actually believed that he'd get probation or a 8 or 9 months in jail because in his world, it's no big deal to pistol whip people, shoot them and then go on the run from the cops. He got 30 years in prison. He seemed genuinely stunned that his imaginary world didn't match the real world. Maybe video games are something like that. Don't like what's going on? Respawn.


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## ConanHub

Fozzy. I am far from uninformed. It is still a gesture that caters to me. I would also hope that there are not many 10 year olds who even know what the human centipede is. Extremely low brow movie anyway. The concept was pretty laughable. I actually only stopped laughing when I got too grossed out.&#55357;&#56833;
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Flying_Dutchman

RandomDude said:


> Now as for the case of violence in games, yes I enjoy driving down sidewalks running over anything in my path and having cops chasing me while I do so
> 
> As I enjoy it, I must be doing it in real life yes? At the very least I must be encouraged to do so correct? Sheez
> 
> Reminds me of that shooting in America a while back where someone found a video game and then the media outlets proceeded to blame the game :slap:
> 
> Millions of happy gamers, and one owner of the game goes on a rampage... it MUST BE THE VIDEO GAME!!!!


which reminds me of 80's fundamentalist playing rock albums backwards, hearing 'satanic lyrics' and blaming them for teen suicides.

Frank Zappa, John Denver and the PMRC.

Me. I blame Elvis and his swingin' hips.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sh987

My take on GTA is the same as ever: it's a complex and sarcastic parody of the particular citiy/culture which each game attempts to caricature, all with an internalized morality structure. Grand Theft Auto makes me want to hit the streets and commit murder as much as Trainspotting made me want to take up a heroine addiction.

We can congratulate Target for taking GTA off the shelves in Australia, but it would ignore that there is still plenty of violence and mayhem available to found on their shelves. Let's also, while we commend them, remember that they happily sold it and made big bucks for over a year, even though they knew perfectly well what the content is in that title.

I don't think we should kid ourselves: Target is trying to appear morally superior when they shouldn't be.


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## Fozzy

To me, it seems like Target has such a low opinion of its customers that it can (successfully it seems) manipulate a manufactured controversy into more sales by claiming to be against selling out of it's left hand what it's openly selling out of its right. It's offensive to me that Target has such a low opinion of public intelligence that we'd somehow believe that they're acting out of a sense of morality. If that were the case, they wouldn't stop at the ONE title that gets a bunch of media attention EVERY SINGLE CHRISTMAS.


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## richardsharpe

Good evening all
There is all the difference in the world between fantasy and reality: war / sport, rape / BDSM, games / reality.

I don't personally like GTA, but I've spent many hours cutting burning, exploding and crushing unleaded armies in Myth I, II and III. I've annihilated cities in Civ. I've played games where you stab, shot, poison, and otherwise dispose of opponents. I read books where viking warriors cut a swath of bloody destruction through the English countryside. I enjoy Game of Thrones were to a good approximation everyone is trying to kill everyone else - and generally succeeding.

I never hurt people in real life - the same way that I never tried to jump off of a building after watching Superman as a child.

The real gangsters and rapists aren't playing GTA, they are the ones actually doing those things.


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## Personal

sh987 said:


> Grand Theft Auto makes me want to hit the streets and commit murder as much as Trainspotting made me want to take up a heroine addiction.


My wife and I love the film Trainspotting (unsurprisingly the book is cool as well), we first saw it on our second date.


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## richie33

This time of year Target should be more worried about cyber hackers stealing customers credit card information than what games they should or shouldn't be selling.


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## Holland

Why shouldn't they be wouldn't they be worried about which games they sell? A week ago the petition had over 40,000 signatures. People have a right to be heard and it seems many find the game to be misogynistic and degrading to women.



> The real gangsters and rapists aren't playing GTA, they are the ones actually doing those things.


 Do you have the qualifications to make such a statement? OK I get it that some like this sort of violence but the flip side is that many find it reprehensible.


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## richie33

Holland said:


> Why shouldn't they be wouldn't they be worried about which games they sell? A week ago the petition had over 40,000 signatures. People have a right to be heard and it seems many find the game to be misogynistic and degrading to women.
> 
> Do you have the qualifications to make such a statement? OK I get it that some like this sort of violence but the flip side is that many find it reprehensible.


They had 1.5 million customers credit card information stolen this time last year. Maybe this is good press they need.


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## vellocet

Holland said:


> Do you have the qualifications to make such a statement? OK I get it that some like this sort of violence but the flip side is that *many find it reprehensible*.


Then they don't have to play it.


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## vellocet

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening all
> There is all the difference in the world between fantasy and reality: war / sport, rape / BDSM, games / reality.
> 
> I don't personally like GTA, but I've spent many hours cutting burning, exploding and crushing unleaded armies in Myth I, II and III. I've annihilated cities in Civ. I've played games where you stab, shot, poison, and otherwise dispose of opponents. I read books where viking warriors cut a swath of bloody destruction through the English countryside. I enjoy Game of Thrones were to a good approximation everyone is trying to kill everyone else - and generally succeeding.
> 
> I never hurt people in real life - the same way that I never tried to jump off of a building after watching Superman as a child.
> 
> The real gangsters and rapists aren't playing GTA, they are the ones actually doing those things.



Well said. Although I don't play GTA, I'm a huge Call of Duty fan. Guess because of all the shooting/killing in that game, that makes me a monster and some sort of social degenerate.


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## Cletus

Holland said:


> Do you have the qualifications to make such a statement? OK I get it that some like this sort of violence but the flip side is that many find it reprehensible.


Oh, I suspect plenty of gangstas play GTA. I would never say they aren't. What I would never say is that playing GTA made them gangster.


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## unbelievable

On Combat, Video Game Violence

LTC Dave Grossman is a retired paratrooper and a psychologist. According to him, games such as GTA are desensitizing kids to the natural human aversion to killing. In our Civil War, only about 15% of soldiers in combat actually fired their individual weapons at an enemy and even fewer used stabbing or cutting weapons in combat. Our military (and our police) use a variety of realistic training techniques to overcome this aversion and make killing more efficient. We use first person shooter "games" your kids would absolutely love and would probably excel at. We are deliberately training killers and you believe your kids are merely being entertained. I've been a soldier and a cop for over 30 years and I certainly see the difference in recruits of 1980 compared to today's. Lethal assaults against cops were far more common in 1980 than they are today but we didn't spend days on the range, firing thousands of rounds, or routinely carry militarized weapons on patrol. I had a revolver, six spare rounds, and a badge. Now, our guys ride around with a tricked out AR-15 with at least 90 rounds, a tricked out shotgun with dozens of rounds, a high capacity sidearm with about 60 rounds on their person at all times. These guys come to work looking like they think they are patrolling Baghdad on a bad day. I believe Grossman is onto something and, deliberately or not, we are creating young people who see killing as a legitimate and logical course of action to solve even minor conflicts. I have to watch this stuff for training but there is no way I'd let my grandchildren watch it.


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## Cletus

unbelievable said:


> On Combat, Video Game Violence


That was quite a screed, long on words but short on data. Google the term "studies linking video game violence to actual violence" and you don't need to read much past the headlines to see what the research has been uncovering about this topic.


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## Holland

richie33 said:


> They had 1.5 million customers credit card information stolen this time last year. Maybe this is good press they need.


Two different issues. I don't see how defecting the real issue is productive. There are many people that find this sort of violence against women to be unacceptable, clearly some see it as harmless fun.

Credit card details being stolen is also not acceptable.


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## Holland

vellocet said:


> Then they don't have to play it.


That is true but that does not change the fact that I do not want to live in a world or raise my children (of both genders) in a world that thinks that violence towards women is entertainment.


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## tascam

holland said:


> i was so glad to see this on the news this morning. It is sickening to me that such a game with its violence and sexual violence against women is considered entertainment.
> 
> gta5: Target australia bans grand theft auto v: Petition


yes it is entertainment and good entertainment at that


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## richie33

Holland said:


> Two different issues. I don't see how defecting the real issue is productive. There are many people that find this sort of violence against women to be unacceptable, clearly some see it as harmless fun.
> 
> Credit card details being stolen is also not acceptable.


Game has been out for over a year. Target made millions off this title already...why now? 4,000 signatures made them stop? I highly doubt it. 
Maybe I am just still pissed cause two of my cards were compromised during this time.


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## tascam

Holland said:


> That is true but that does not change the fact that I do not want to live in a world or raise my children (of both genders) in a world that thinks that violence towards women is entertainment.


Too bad. Enough people like it that it's a big seller. Apparently it's OK to bash men constantly in the media and men get the short end of the stick in divorce court, so I have no problem with this game


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## Cletus

Holland said:


> That is true but that does not change the fact that I do not want to live in a world or raise my children (of both genders) in a world that thinks that violence towards women is entertainment.


Sincere question.

If you were Queen, would you rid the world of all video games with a violent bent? Call of Duty/Battlefield, Shadow of Mordor, Assasin's Creed, etc.? And if so, why?


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## Holland

tascam said:


> Too bad. Enough people like it that it's a big seller. Apparently it's OK to bash men constantly in the media and men get the short end of the stick in divorce court, so I have no problem with this game


So it is OK then to promote violence towards women because of divorce. 

Do you have daughters? Are you happy for them to live in a world that finds violence towards women to be entertaining?


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## richardsharpe

Good evening all
once you start banning things, where do you stop. A huge amount of literature, videos, and games includes violence. Even the bible contains some horrific stuff, though a bit hidden in obsolete language.


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## unbelievable

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening all
> once you start banning things, where do you stop. A huge amount of literature, videos, and games includes violence. Even the bible contains some horrific stuff, though a bit hidden in obsolete language.


Once you start tolerating things, where do you stop? That's why we need common sense. Teaching children to steal cars and shoot police officers would seem like a bad idea to most people. Society isn't in the mess it's in because prudes have been banning things.


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## Holland

Cletus said:


> Sincere question.
> 
> If you were Queen, would you rid the world of all video games with a violent bent? Call of Duty/Battlefield, Shadow of Mordor, Assasin's Creed, etc.? And if so, why?


Well if I were Queen of the world I would rid the world of games that promoted hatred and violence towards ALL people. 

This is quoted from the link I posted. I would rid the world of games that promoted the mindset that violence towards women is acceptable fun. You are asking my opinion and here it is.... violence against anyone is not acceptable to me. Violence against women is a major problem and promoting it will only serve to hurt ALL people, men and women. 



> Detractors also say that the game is equally violent towards men, but Nicole said this argument didn’t hold water because the vast majority of sexual crimes were committed against women.
> “This is the argument we hear every time violence against women is mentioned. Even on White Ribbon Day, there are cries of ‘But it happens to men, too’.
> “In this case, the male gamers are saying they don’t mind violence against themselves in this game. Implicit in this is the recognition that if men don’t mind, then women have to put up with it.
> “This is hardly a gender-neutral argument. Implicit in it is the very misogyny we are rallying against.”


Sexual violence is insidious and ruins many lives. Look around here at all the men that are trying to cope with marriages that are sexually dysfunctional due to the wifes sexual abuse issues. Sexual violence towards women is a major problem and promoting it as fun is part of a bigger picture. 


My issues is with the sexual violence of these games so I won't comment on the general violence except to say I also find abhorrent.


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## Cletus

unbelievable said:


> Once you start tolerating things, where do you stop? That's why we need common sense. Teaching children to steal cars and shoot police officers would seem like a bad idea to most people. Society isn't in the mess it's in because prudes have been banning things.


Is society "in a mess"? Crime rates over the last two decades have receded almost to the levels of the 1960's. 

And it actually has been shown that video games aren't causing crime. If video games are teaching children, they don't seem to be getting the message. Did playing "Battleship" as a youth turn me into a terrorist?


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## Cletus

Holland said:


> Sexual violence is insidious and ruins many lives. Look around here at all the men that are trying to cope with marriages that are sexually dysfunctional due to the wifes sexual abuse issues. Sexual violence towards women is a major problem and promoting it as fun is part of a bigger picture.
> 
> 
> My issues is with the sexual violence of these games so I won't comment on the general violence except to say I also find abhorrent.


Ok. So would your opinion change if it was proved to your satisfaction (which I will not attempt to do) that these things did not contribute to actual, real violence against women? Do you believe we should remove them based on simple repugnance alone, or should there be demonstrable harm?


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## that.girl

I've played a pretty decent amount of GTA. I'm having trouble thinking of an actual misogynist storyline in the game, but i might be forgetting something. Can i get an example? 

You can kill the prostitutes, but you can kill everybody else too, so i don't really count that as misogyny.


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## Holland

Cletus said:


> Ok. So would your opinion change if it was proved to your satisfaction (which I will not attempt to do) that these things did not contribute to actual, real violence against women? Do you believe we should remove them based on simple repugnance alone, or should there be demonstrable harm?


Not sure I can articulate well enough here but my answer would be yes. The portrayal of violence towards women may or may not lead to real violence. But what about attitudes towards women? That is also a big issue that we have to contend with daily.

TBH a man that thinks that violence towards women is fun entertainment is a revolting person to me.


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## RandomDude

that.girl said:


> I've played a pretty decent amount of GTA. I'm having trouble thinking of an actual misogynist storyline in the game, but i might be forgetting something. Can i get an example?
> 
> You can kill the prostitutes, but you can kill everybody else too, so i don't really count that as misogyny.


Exactly, also while I'm steamrolling the sidewalks squishing anyone in my path, I don't give a crap what gender they are! Squish squish squish... hehe I love GTA

Btw Holland, violence is a good stress relief, and it's good to give people outlets that don't harm anyone. Running over polygons on a screen does not equate to running over people in real life.


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## RandomDude

Also, who buys games from target these days? It's either EB games, games workshop or just purchase a digital copy.


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## sh987

unbelievable said:


> Once you start tolerating things, where do you stop? That's why we need common sense. *Teaching children to steal cars and shoot police officers would seem like a bad idea to most people.* Society isn't in the mess it's in because prudes have been banning things.


Indeed, but the game is meant to be sold only to adults.


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## sh987

Holland said:


> So it is OK then to promote violence towards women because of divorce.
> 
> Do you have daughters? Are you happy for them to live in a world that finds violence towards women to be entertaining?


I've never found that the GTA titles promote violence against women more than any other extremely gritty book, film, or TV show in the crime genre. Violence happens to women in the course of the game, but violence towards women is not the point of the game itself, and I think there's a distinction to be made between the two concepts.

The game allows the player to play tennis, but playing tennis isn't what the game is about; GTA isn't promoting tennis. GTA allows the player to invest in an in-world stock market, but playing the markets is not the point of the game.

There are some truly tasteless games (and movies, shows, books, etc) out there, which showcase violence, crime and mayhem, but which provide absolutely no commentary on the cost of those acts. These artless products are simply sensational attempts to cash in on controversy. GTA showcases a sad display of imagined male power in a world populated by criminals, sociopaths, perverts and narcissists... But it nevers asks you to empathize with these losers.

It's a train wreck where you watch the character's life fall apart piece by piece as they shed off one more piece of their humanity all for mere dollars or street cred.

Perhaps not all who play will take the time to think about it that deeply. They may not take the time to see the recreation of some of the most vapid and shallow parts of our society as mockery of what we've become: celebrity obsessed and looking for the next backdrop for a selfie.

The outrage doesn't seem that different to me than when Tipper Gore was outraged over the BDSM elements of Twister Sister's song "Under the Knife", when it was really about a band member's throat surgery.


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## Middle of Everything

Overused example I know, but the NAZIs believed in censorship and banning ideas.

People should be able to make music, books, games, art, etc etc etc about ANYTHING. It could be about how you think every cute puppy and kitten should be run over with a truck or something stupid like that. NO ONE has to buy it. NO ONE. But people should have the right to create art in any form they choose that doesnt actually hurt people. 

Censorship is an incredibly slippery slope and the only solution is create what you want.


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## Holland

Middle of Everything said:


> Overused example I know, but the NAZIs believed in censorship and banning ideas.
> 
> People should be able to make music, books, games, art, etc etc etc about ANYTHING. It could be about how you think every cute puppy and kitten should be run over with a truck or something stupid like that. NO ONE has to buy it. NO ONE. But people should have the right to create art in any form they choose that doesnt actually hurt people.
> 
> *Censorship is an incredibly slippery slope* and the only solution is create what you want.


Yes I agree but it is society that decided what has crossed the line. The Warehouse in NZ has taken similar steps to Aussie so that says something about what is considered OK and what isn't.


----------



## EleGirl

that.girl said:


> I've played a pretty decent amount of GTA. I'm having trouble thinking of an actual misogynist storyline in the game, but i might be forgetting something. Can i get an example?
> 
> You can kill the prostitutes, but you can kill everybody else too, so i don't really count that as misogyny.


Millions upon millions of people play GTA. If it was going to cause violence, we'd have millions upon millions going crazy doing it.

My son plays it. There is a lot more to the game than most people seem to realize...


----------



## that.girl

People have been entertaining themselves with violence since the beginning of time. It's not pretty, but it's human nature.

Parents need to learn and understand the video game rating system. GTA is rated mature or adult only (depending on the title). If you wouldn't let your kid watch an R-rated movie, don't let them play an M-rated game. 

Video game rating guide:
Rating categories, content descriptors, and interactive elements from ESRB


----------



## Personal

that.girl said:


> Parents need to learn and understand the video game rating system. GTA is rated mature or adult only (depending on the title). If you wouldn't let your kid watch an R-rated movie, don't let them play an M-rated game.


Yep, 15+ and or 18+ as appropriate.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

Stores need a better job of checking ID's when kids purchase games. I was able to purchase rated mature games at 14 or 15. I remember being able to purchase Resident evil"code Veronica at 13, also fatal frame, and a few others. Needless to say, they never checked my ID. Well at that age, I did not have one.


----------



## that.girl

Mr.Fisty said:


> Stores need a better job of checking ID's when kids purchase games. I was able to purchase rated mature games at 14 or 15. I remember being able to purchase Resident evil"code Veronica at 13, also fatal frame, and a few others. Needless to say, they never checked my ID. Well at that age, I did not have one.


You must be close to my age. Nobody checked ID for games when we were teens, a lot of people thought all games were made for kids. 

Stores do better at this now, but it still needs to be enforced. But now that i think about it, you don't really need ID to buy an R-rated movie, just for adult movies. 
Mature would be like rated R, and Adults Only is like rated X (or whatever they use now, lol).
Stores need to set a policy they're comfortable with and enforce it.


----------



## Middle of Everything

that.girl said:


> You must be close to my age. Nobody checked ID for games when we were teens, a lot of people thought all games were made for kids.
> 
> Stores do better at this now, but it still needs to be enforced. But now that i think about it, you don't really need ID to buy an R-rated movie, just for adult movies.
> Mature would be like rated R, and Adults Only is like rated X (or whatever they use now, lol).
> Stores need to set a policy they're comfortable with and enforce it.


Only time I was ever carded buying something besides alcohol was a Rage Against the Machine CD. Threw me off. I thought "huh?" my ID? What for?  Oh mature lyrics. One and only time.


----------



## john117

Target could spend the extra effort making sure their customer data is secure - not about fictional stuff...


----------



## unbelievable

sh987 said:


> Indeed, but the game is meant to be sold only to adults.


For very good reasons, but lots of kids have irresponsible parents and children are playing these games or watching as adults play them. I'm over 50 and I'm too young to be learning how to steal cars and kill prostitutes or police officers. What would be the value of putting that stuff in your head?


----------



## john117

I have been "killing" various bad guys on computer screens since the days of Bezerker . My girls are both Halo aces. You don't see us causing general mayhem.

Maybe the older one does drive a bit like she did on "Simpsons Hit and Run"...


----------



## Mr.Fisty

that.girl said:


> You must be close to my age. Nobody checked ID for games when we were teens, a lot of people thought all games were made for kids.
> 
> Stores do better at this now, but it still needs to be enforced. But now that i think about it, you don't really need ID to buy an R-rated movie, just for adult movies.
> Mature would be like rated R, and Adults Only is like rated X (or whatever they use now, lol).
> Stores need to set a policy they're comfortable with and enforce it.


 I just purchased a Ps4 for my lil bro, and got Gta, and Last of Us for free along with it. I don't think there were children friendly choices that you can pick. But at least he is in college.

Anyways, I am more into indie games. Currently playing Dead State, and Dragon age Inquisition. I love the voice actress of Leliana.


----------



## unbelievable

BBC News - Violent video games leave teens 'morally immature'


----------



## unbelievable

New Study: Video Games and Teens’ Behavior | Dartmouth Now


----------



## unbelievable

Violent video games reduce teens' self-control, study shows - Medical News Today


----------



## larry.gray

I think it must have been either GTA II or III when it happened - 
On the bus one of the kids was playing it, and showed one of the 'hooker' scenes to my daughter. He then informed her he'd like to do the same to her.

The principal was smart enough to not have all of us together when they dealt with it.


----------



## john117

Unbelievable, the study mentioned mixed up correlation and causation and grand mal sample selection bias.

Start with 200 kids that exhibit no violent or immoral behavior to begin with from similar socioeconomic backgrounds, have 100 play pinball and 100 play GTA then do the experiment.


----------



## meson

Nynaeve said:


> Well, for me, the violence isn't the appealing part. The challenge of the missions, the game-play, is the appealing part. I especially like the driving, flying, etc. The timed challenges. I do like the shooting stuff because that takes a certain amount of skill to aim and fire, run and shoot, etc. When it gets too violent, it often makes me squirm. I just try to tune out that part and focus on the challenge.
> 
> There are other games that offer some amount of the same challenges without the gratuitous violence. But I would sat that GTA is unrivaled in some areas. The open-world stuff, the side missions, and the sheer amount of game there is to play aren't really offered in any other games.


My daughter plays GTA and the above is pretty much similar to her opinion. There is more to it than violence. It's about the challenge.


----------



## sh987

unbelievable said:


> For very good reasons, but lots of kids have irresponsible parents and children are playing these games or watching as adults play them.


I like the GTA games.
We have a 15-year old son.
He is NOT permitted to play them. They are entertainment for adults.

But...

When I was a teenager, I knew irresponsible people who bootlegged booze for their kids. I knew another set of parents who thought that it was just fine for their 15-year old daughter to have sex in their house, under the thought that it was "safe". I knew another guy with a stack of Hustler, Cheri, etc, all given to him by his father (when he was through with them). We all, with a lot of parents' consent, sat around watching some of the most atrocious slasher films of all time back in the 80s.

In other words, we all know parents who are either irresponsible or make regrettable choices.



> I'm over 50 and I'm too young to be learning how to steal cars and kill prostitutes or police officers. What would be the value of putting that stuff in your head?


For what it's worth, these games don't teach you how to steal cars or kill prostitutes or cops any more than Call of Duty readies you to take Normandy Beach on D-Day, or Enter The Dragon taught me to be an expert in martial arts, or Pong gets you ready to play centre court at Wimbledon. You simply approach a vehicle, hit the "Y" button, and he hauls the owner out and gets in. It's not exactly a crash course on auto theft, though I do get what you're saying.

This is not one bit different than something like The Godfather, which also took place in the context of an internalized morality system, in which certain people were the protagonists, even though they were profoundly evil people.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

I never monitored what our sons play.. video game wise ..but they have railed against this game..ever since it came out....not sure how it came up in conversation.. but it was them telling me about it.. I think our youngest wanted a video game with racing cars and mentioned it somehow.. and they Jumped.. "NO NO...NEVER BUY THAT !! giving me an Education on how Vile / dreadfully Evil.. full of blood curdling killing that it was... 

Good for TARGET...I hope other stores follow suit!


----------



## As'laDain

im not convinced that video games have any direct impact. 

do violent games cause kids to have less impulse control or is it because the parents arent teaching their kids impulse control?

do video games cause kids to become violent or is it the lack of proper guidance on how to effectively deal with real life?

i know for myself, GTA never taught me to kill people any more than call of duty taught me how to be an airborne infantryman. religiously playing paintball DID teach me some pretty effective individual movement techniques, however. got me used to pulling a trigger when pointing my weapon(marker) at a human.

and strangely enough, i still have a deep seated aversion to killing. i recognized the training that was supposed to make me pull the trigger without thinking... it was basically just getting you used to pointing your weapon at the silhouette of a man and pulling the trigger. cardboard cutouts. and we all fired at them without hesitation because we knew they werent human. the training didnt make it any easier for us to think about shooting another human being. all it did was train us to pull a trigger when we stopped thinking and were going through the motions of our training. in other words, when we were freaked out and our IQs dropped back to that of an ape, killing someone didnt have to be on our minds. we just had to point and shoot without putting any thought into it. 

all that training that is desensitize us is very specific. i have never encountered a place outside of training or deployment where i have dropped to the ground or decided that i needed to shoot someone. im sure i would if i had too, but i have never thought of using a weapon as a way to solve a conflict. but of course, i have been extensively trained to kill. and i dont mean by video games, i mean in real life. 

no amount of violent video games have ever made me more prone to hurting someone. unusually sadistic portrayals of violence on video games are a turn off to me, i dont particularly like it, but as long as the game is decently challenging, i will still enjoy the game overall. 

i have to believe its because of how i was raised. and if my upbringing had that much of an impact on how i view things, despite my exposure to violence and portrayals of violence, i have to believe that the same is true for those who think violence is ok.


----------



## vellocet

Holland said:


> That is true but that does not change the fact that I do not want to live in a world or raise my children (of both genders) in a world that thinks that violence towards women is entertainment.


Personally I don't find that appealing myself.

But seems you only care about the violence against women part.

So if the violence against women were left out of it, and honestly I'd like to see that happen myself, then you wouldn't have as much of a problem with this game? Notice I said AS MUCH.


----------



## vellocet

unbelievable said:


> Once you start tolerating things, where do you stop? That's why we need common sense. Teaching children to steal cars and shoot police officers would seem like a bad idea to most people. Society isn't in the mess it's in because prudes have been banning things.


My son played GTA. A friend let him borrow it. I told him I would have to be sitting there watching him do it.

He is already heard it all from a cussing standpoint, but I wanted to make sure he didn't play into the really bad stuff, which I didn't see, like sex and whatnot.

All he wanted to do was run around in cars and do neat things with them. Yes, he did the occasional beat someone up on the street thing, but his words to me were, "like I'd do anything like this in real life". The whole allure for him was this "open world" concept where you had this huge map where you can go from city to city and do just about anything.

I do wish there was a setting that you could use a parental code and the sex stuff was left out of it. My son is a well adjusted kid and there was a lot to this game that is fun away from the stuff that, and I agree with, shouldn't be in it.


----------



## vellocet

that.girl said:


> I've played a pretty decent amount of GTA. I'm having trouble thinking of an actual misogynist storyline in the game, but i might be forgetting something. Can i get an example?
> 
> You can kill the prostitutes, but you can kill everybody else too, so i don't really count that as misogyny.


Yup, its equal opportunity violence


----------



## vellocet

that.girl said:


> People have been entertaining themselves with violence since the beginning of time. It's not pretty, but it's human nature.


Yes, this needs to be stopped!!


----------



## vellocet

As'laDain said:


> im not convinced that video games have any direct impact.


I dunno, Stoker 64 on a Commodore caused me to be a chronic masturbator.


----------



## Runs like Dog

Middle of Everything said:


> Overused example I know, but the NAZIs believed in censorship and banning ideas.


And they were bizarrely tolerant of sex and violence. Well straight sex at any rate.


----------



## Cletus

Runs like Dog said:


> And they were bizarrely tolerant of sex and violence. Well straight sex at any rate.


Using the word "tolerant" for the Nazi relationship to violence might be the understatement of the century.


----------



## Almostrecovered

Super Mario Brother's violence against turtles is abhorrent


----------



## Lon

*Re: Re: Target removes Grand Theft Auto from its stores*



Moops said:


> Fair enough. But I don't think it's right to moralize about what people do on their spare time as long as it doesnt hurt anybody else.
> 
> In the 50's rock n roll music was the devil. In the 70's and 80's it was hard rock music and slasher movies. Now it's video games.
> 
> All those people who are now blasting Grand Theft Auto and is calling for it to be taken of the shelves, have you actually played the game?


I think it's vile. I haven't played it myself, but I've watched my 4 year to old step-nephew play for long enough to see what the fuss is about.

(And yes, I know that it's not meant for four year olds, that is the point I'm trying to make, that even though it's way too violent for kids and not supposed to be for them, it nonetheless appeals to their violent destructive side, and at least a couple elementary school aged kids in any given school spend their weekends and any other spare time they can playing this particular game when there are thousands of healthy creative outlets available)


----------



## Lon

*Re: Re: Target removes Grand Theft Auto from its stores*



EleGirl said:


> Millions upon millions of people play GTA. If it was going to cause violence, we'd have millions upon millions going crazy doing it.
> 
> My son plays it. There is a lot more to the game than most people seem to realize...


To me, it's just the desensitizing effect of having nearly everyone in my peer group playing this game for hours upon hours. I have witnessed in my mere 38 years of living just how tolerant the western world has become to violence and bodily desecration. Looney tunes, and the ATeam were a huge controversy when I was a kid, the stuff in movies is at least ten times worse now. Nowadays it's not enough to simply allude to heinous things, it must be depicted in 1080p agonizing CGI gory detail. You can't fade to black when the shrapnel sprays or the rapist goes in, you have to try to make the audience captive in their horror. Even pg rated stuff promotes mockery, belittlement and harm to your enemies. GTA is just the pick of the crop in terms of disrespect towards fellow humans, and any justification that it can be any sort of healthy outlet just proves in my mind that society has lost sight of the how when it comes to civility.

I feel like I shouldn't have to preach this stuff.


----------



## AliceA

If you want to desensitise people to violence, you show them violence. The more real you make it, the better job it will do, so a game where you pull out a knife and stick it into someone is different to casting a frost bolt and watching a little green health bar decrease slightly. Watching a Death Star blow up an entire planet is different to watching someone set fire to a house with a family inside sleeping.

Make it real enough to be quite possible to do, make it normal, make it repetitive, and make it fun. Now you have a great recipe for desensitising someone to violence against other people.

Edited to add: sometimes you have to stop looking for definite links, bright neon signs or 'scientific studies' to tell you what common sense should. E.g. A child watches his mother get beaten up regularly throughout his childhood, grows up, gets married and beats his wife. There's no sign of what happened to his brain while watching that, yet it still had an effect. There may be no sign of what happens to the brain of a child playing games that try to closely mimic real life violence throughout their childhood, but maybe one day they'll drive past a kid lying on the side of the road, injured and alone, because they don't care, or maybe they'll watch while someone is violently beaten in front of them because it's none of their concern, or maybe not do anything about their child beating the crap out of another child, because the other kid 'deserved' it. You don't know what effect it's having, but that's no excuse.


----------



## Holland

vellocet said:


> Personally I don't find that appealing myself.
> 
> But seems you only care about the violence against women part.
> 
> So if the violence against women were left out of it, and honestly I'd like to see that happen myself, then you wouldn't have as much of a problem with this game? Notice I said AS MUCH.


No I have said in this thread that violence against anyone is appalling to me. The thread was about the reason Target removed the game and that is specifically due to the sexual violence against women.

It is grossly unfair of you to suggest that I would not have an issue with violence towards men, I have already stated it is not acceptable. Do not put words into my mouth or make suggestions that are there to incite a gender arguement.


----------



## that.girl

It is a very violent game, no doubt. 

But not sexually violent. There is no rape in the game, all sexual acts are consensual. You don't have to do anything sexual, and you could get through a lot of the game without murder if you really tried. Any violence is equal opportunity. It's not fair to single out this game for violence against women.

If you want to hate on the game for its violence, that's your right. But be accurate and informed with that hate. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean other responsible adults shouldn't get to play it. And seriously, keep it away from your kids!!


----------



## Runs like Dog

Well thanks be to Sky Cake that Target subsumes the role of parent.


----------



## Lon

*Re: Re: Target removes Grand Theft Auto from its stores*



that.girl said:


> It is a very violent game, no doubt.
> 
> But not sexually violent. There is no rape in the game, all sexual acts are consensual. You don't have to do anything sexual, and you could get through a lot of the game without murder if you really tried. Any violence is equal opportunity. It's not fair to single out this game for violence against women.
> 
> If you want to hate on the game for its violence, that's your right. But be accurate and informed with that hate. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean other responsible adults shouldn't get to play it. And seriously, keep it away from your kids!!


I agree that what I've seen of it contains no misogyny or degrades any particular demographic, anything is a fair target. You can get through the game without sex or murder, but it's specifically tailored to make it easy to kill, and because of that it's way too fun to kill indiscriminately, which is the entire reason it's so popular. When they add lewd language into the mix it just heightens the amount of things which you can't always get away with in real life, but are encouraged in the game. Yes there is a lot you can do in the game, like golfing, skiing, racing etc, but there is always Tiger Woods golf, downhill skiing games, Forza Motorsport etc.

By deliberately blurring the line between reality and fantasy, it is desensitizing everyone who plays it. While most adults are mentally stable, and responsible enough to distinguish what is considered inappropriate from what is tolerable, it still moves the goalposts, and we know that a significant portion isn't responsible or entirely sane, and those don't see any problems with the violence and vulgarity in either the game or reality, won't understand why they even bother with game ratings for kids. My main concern is not that responsible adults shouldn't enjoy this outlet, it's that there is so much anger and hate in society and the popularity of games like this just make it worse. Our kids pick up on all of that.

I'm not for government censorship in the least, and I don't think rockstar or other entertainment producers should ever be banned, I would just like to think more people would be discerning about the kind of stuff they choose to consume and feed their brain. I also applaud retailers who choose to act according to some set of moral code even if I don't always agree with their specific morals.


----------



## richie33

And on Sundays we sit around the tv watching young men try to rip each others heads off....what commercial is that at halftime...yes, Target!!!!


----------



## richardsharpe

Good evening Lon
Isn't watching a 4 year old play GTAV like watching a 4-year old viewing hard core porn? 

Maybe the term "game" confuses people. This, and a variety of other games are rated for adults only for very good reasons. They are simply not appropriate for children. 



Lon said:


> I think it's vile. I haven't played it myself, but I've watched my 4 year to old step-nephew play for long enough to see what the fuss is about.
> 
> (And yes, I know that it's not meant for four year olds, that is the point I'm trying to make, that even though it's way too violent for kids and not supposed to be for them, it nonetheless appeals to their violent destructive side, and at least a couple elementary school aged kids in any given school spend their weekends and any other spare time they can playing this particular game when there are thousands of healthy creative outlets available)


----------



## richardsharpe

Good evening all
don't forget that in the good old days, parents would take their kids to hangings......


----------



## vellocet

Almostrecovered said:


> Super Mario Brother's violence against turtles is abhorrent


Why hasn't PETA spoken up???? Selective outrage!


----------



## vellocet

Holland said:


> It is grossly unfair of you to suggest that I would not have an issue with violence towards men


Well what do you expect when you single out just one aspect?


----------



## Lon

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening Lon
> Isn't watching a 4 year old play GTAV like watching a 4-year old viewing hard core porn?
> 
> Maybe the term "game" confuses people. This, and a variety of other games are rated for adults only for very good reasons. They are simply not appropriate for children.


Yes, I agree - it felt as uncomfortable for me to see him playing GTAV as I suspect it would have if he was watching porn.

I wasn't completely upfront on here though - what really transpired is that my brother invited me over, and when I got there I saw his stepson was playing the game while my brother was watching, his mom was in the kitchen which has a clear view to the living room where the game was on. This was the first time I'd seen/heard the game. I saw that the 4 year old was playing (and he knew what he was doing because he plays xbox games a LOT), while my brother was watching him play. I was uncomfortable right away, but waited for a couple minutes before I spoke up, and made a comment to the four year old, loud enough for my brother and his wife to hear, that it wasn't a good game. My brother took the hint and turned it off - however I knew it was only temporarily as he sensed I was uncomfortable (not that he sensed there was anything new that his stepson hadn't seen or heard already). On other occasions I have been over there and watched my brother play for some time, as the kids came and went.

It's not that I don't think my brother is irresponsible, nor his W - but they are completely desensitized to the point where they do not see the harm of letting kids play this. And in reality, "age appropriate" is a term that only applies to things that are actually appropriate at a certain age - murder, indiscriminate killing, causing pain and harm and violent deaths are not really appropriate for adults either, so how do you set an age limit on it?


----------



## Almostrecovered

I blame PacMan for the obesity epidemic


----------



## Almostrecovered

and I never heard of balloon popping fetishes until after Dig Dug came out


----------



## Cletus

Lon said:


> and those don't see any problems with the violence and vulgarity in either the game or reality, won't understand why they even bother with game ratings for kids.


What a completely unsupportable statement.


----------



## Lon

Cletus said:


> What a completely unsupportable statement.


If you are going to let your kids play rated M games anyway, what's the purpose of even having a game rating?


----------



## Cletus

Lon said:


> If you are going to let your kids play rated M games anyway, what's the purpose of even having a game rating?


Ok, then I misunderstood your statement. I have no problem with the violence in the game for the appropriate audience.


----------



## vellocet

Lon said:


> If you are going to let your kids play rated M games anyway, what's the purpose of even having a game rating?


For those that do care about the M rating.

There are certain things that I will not let my son play. He has heard it all from a cussing standpoint. Call of Duty, shooting, a little violence, he knows its not real and nothing that he should do in real life, and honestly, he is a very timid kid who gets along with everyone and doesn't have a violent bone in his body.

What I don't want him seeing are sex scenes, nudity, etc. Which is why when he borrowed GTA from a friend, I was in the room with him.

All he wanted to do was hop in different vehicles and explore the cities, especially jumping in a jet and then parachuting. Yes, he would run people over with the cars, but that's not what he plays the game for.

Apparently there were things, I heard, called "purple" buildings which were strip clubs, but while watching him I never saw any. And if I did, he knows he is not to go in them.


----------



## Lon

Cletus said:


> Ok, then I misunderstood your statement. I have no problem with the violence in the game for the appropriate audience.


Why, if violence and vulgarity is good for someone who is 17 or 18, why is it not good for a four year old though?

Yes, I'm possibly putting down some conflicting viewpoints... I detest vulgarity and things that are disrespectful to fellow human beings, however I am not opposed to all forms of violence or aggression, but I believe it's every person's right to choose for themselves. I also acknowledge that kids are maturing and developing and can't completely grasp the big picture, and are still dependent on parents to choose what is is right for them.

My problem is that a lot of people think the vulgarity and disrespect is good, cool, funny and entertaining - and for them, holding that view means that they see nothing wrong with it - in fact just the opposite, that it deserves their attention and so why would they keep something they value from their young children?

Kids are highly astute in seeing that which their role models put value in. So having a game ratings system is pointless if the parents are going to go ahead and buy violent vulgar games for themselves anyway.


----------



## Cletus

Lon said:


> Why, if violence and vulgarity is good for someone who is 17 or 18, why is it not good for a four year old though?


Surely that was a rhetorical question.

Because a 4 year old isn't mentally equipped to process that kind of information. It's the same reason you don't let him watch slasher flicks or probably turn off NPR when a graphic news story comes on. 



> Yes, I'm possibly putting down some conflicting viewpoints... I detest vulgarity and things that are disrespectful to fellow human beings,


So do I. I'm a whole lot more ambivalent to things that are disrespectful to a pixel processor, and I trust a reasonably mature audience to understand the difference. Such an audience does not include a 4 year old.


----------



## Lon

Cletus said:


> Surely that was a rhetorical question.
> 
> Because a 4 year old isn't mentally equipped to process that kind of information. It's the same reason you don't let him watch slasher flicks or probably turn off NPR when a graphic news story comes on.
> 
> 
> 
> So do I. I'm a whole lot more ambivalent to things that are disrespectful to a pixel processor, and I trust a reasonably mature audience to understand the difference. Such an audience does not include a 4 year old.


It wasn't really a rhetorical question, it was meant to point out the underlying premise that vulgarity and violence is good for someone who is 17 or 18.

I do suspect that kids, around age 4-5 (give or take a couple years) are very cognizant of figuring out what things are real and what things aren't. I'm not so certain that the reason we have age filters on some things is because of their discernment of reality vs fantasy. I suspect we filter out a lot of things for them because we know they have not been corrupted yet, and we are not ready to allow them to be corrupted yet for our own guilt. Many children have grown up since birth in war torn countries, yet still have no problem discerning right from wrong, however they likely have witnessed awful things. We on the other hand grow up not really outright witnessing horrible things, having to draw our own inferences and so create these horrible things like violent video games for entertainment.

Why do we need horrible things? Our sense of right and wrong and reality vs fantasy does not hinge on them, so with all our creative talents, why draw pixels that depict us being in the character of a violent thug that wants to violate other characters for self gratification, and why do so in a manner depicted so vulgar?


----------



## richardsharpe

Good evening all
Some kids things are also NOT age appropriate.

A 4 year old playing GTA might actually be better than one watching Bambi. 

When I was growing up, grade school children often were shown propaganda films like "Davie Crockett" which indoctrinated children into seeing a fiasco like the Alamo as "heroic". 

Ideologies can be more dangerous for children than sex and violence.


----------



## Cletus

Lon said:


> It wasn't really a rhetorical question, it was meant to point out the underlying premise that vulgarity and violence is good for someone who is 17 or 18.


Saying it's not bad is not the same as saying it's good. It could be that, for a 17-18 year old, it's one big meh. 

It is interesting that in the US at least, the rise of the video game has coincided with a 50% reduction overall in violent crime. I would never say the two are causally related, but it can be said that video games have not caused a surge in violent crime. So my position, based on studies and observation, is that it does not pose an ill for society. 



> I do suspect that kids, around age 4-5 (give or take a couple years) are very cognizant of figuring out what things are real and what things aren't.


They are, but they are very poor at figuring out what things to worry about, what things over which they should have nightmares, what things are real threats vs. what things are not. They are also extraordinarily self-centered and haven't developed the appropriate interactions with others they will need as adults. 



> We on the other hand grow up not really outright witnessing horrible things, having to draw our own inferences and so create these horrible things like violent video games for entertainment.
> 
> Why do we need horrible things? Our sense of right and wrong and reality vs fantasy does not hinge on them, so with all our creative talents, why draw pixels that depict us being in the character of a violent thug that wants to violate other characters for self gratification, and why do so in a manner depicted so vulgar?


I can't speak for GTA, I have seen but never played it. I can speak to the FPS genre, particularly the Battlefield series. 

My son and I play it because it is fun - far more fun than a game of Monopoly. It's fast, frenetic, energetic, and engrossing. You play online against real people and pit your skills against theirs for bragging rights in a safe context that mimics reality. There's really nothing more to it than that. I don't own any real guns, I lean towards more restrictive gun policies, and I have no fantasies about wearing a pair of bandoliers to work. It is utterly and completely divorced from my day-to-day reality, because aside from a little carpal-tunnel, no one is getting hurt.


----------



## Lon

I know it's fun, and I think there are benefits to playing games, video games and even simulations. Healthy competition is good, and for the most part I agree video games don't really hurt anyone that much. I do think there is a danger of desensitizing society in general. Maybe crime is not going up, but the reasons for people to abstain has changed from "because it's the right thing to do" into, "ah now I have a healthy outlet for all these disturbing things I want to do to other people".

I personally find it quite ironic, and completely unnatural, that we are so worried about sex and nudity, and that they would even get put in the same class as running people down with cars and making headshots with a sniper rifle from a thousand yards out (or just playing it out on screen). But that's just me - I don't own any guns, yet - but the way I see things culminating in society and governments I yearn to exercise my liberty to own one while I still can.


----------



## Holland

vellocet said:


> Well what do you expect when you single out just one aspect?


Seems you are not interested in listening but JIC. 

I did not single out one aspect, I started a thread about why TARGET removed the games. I happen to agree with them but at the same time have also very clearly stated that all violence is abbhorent to me.

If you need it to be made clearer let me know.


----------



## Holland

Lon said:


> If you are going to let your kids play rated M games anyway, what's the purpose of even having a game rating?


The game in question is R rated in Aussie.


----------



## Fozzy

US M rated and Aussie R rated are approximately the same thing.


----------



## AliceA

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening all
> don't forget that in the good old days, parents would take their kids to hangings......


I was wondering if someone would bring up the good old days. 

Personally I don't want to go back to a time when if someone was mugged and beaten nearly to death, the only part society considered a crime was the theft. I guess the reasoning was that if you beat a person, they can heal (violence was very common place at that time, everyone was desensitised to it), but you steal their money and you've quite possibly killed them (no means to live).

We've gone a little too far the other way with the law I think, where now someone can take off with another person's life savings and they're not even charged, and violence is considered the only offence worth punishing severely. Anyway, that was just a side thought.

We're all over the place at the moment, however, I think that violence is a barrier to further advances in society, therefore, would prefer not to desensitise my children to it (our children are our future, where do we want it to go? Will your legacy be a person who contributes or a person who doesn't give a toss?). For personal defence, I will desensitise them to it to some extent through martial arts training, so they don't freeze when someone threatens them, but I feel this will be more acceptable over desensitising them to all violence against all people.


----------



## As'laDain

my parents exposed me to various forms of portrayed violence when i was growing up... 

my brothers and i often watched very violent films and played violent video games, and my parents would always make sure i understood the difference between real violence and simulated violence. they explained it in terms of emotion. they would ask me and my brothers what we thought we would feel if we were getting beat to death, or stabbed. and they would explain that in real life, someone feels that. then they would explain why they make video games that portray that activity... 

because we all want to compete, and violence is a very simple way to say "im stronger/smarter/better/more powerful". my father would remind us of how we always want to be the better player when we play sports and such. and he would relate that to the video games. they are violent, but its a way to feel like your better than someone else, or something. its cheap self validation.


so every time we played violent games, we remembered that. its just a simple way to feel like we are superior somehow, victorious, or like we are the champion. but my father also reminded us that it is false, and is no different than what we would find in a book. 

and he was right. 

this is why i dont believe that games themselves are what makes kids violent. i fully believe that its the parenting. my parents were pretty good about explaining things to us. even my mother, while she would randomly go into a violent rage, she still tried to explain things like that to us whenever she was coherent. 

and to this day, i dont have any desire to actually make someone feel the way i have felt when i was either bullied or had my life threatened in an attack. im quite adverse to it. but i also play violent video games. 

i dont believe in shielding my daughter from ANYTHING that she will eventually have to face. but i DO believe in teaching her and guiding her so that she can be a functional member of society, and be able to see things for what they really are. GTA is just a game. not a lifestyle to emulate. those who dont teach their children that are failing them, and many do that without the video game violence.


----------



## vellocet

Holland said:


> Seems you are not interested in listening but JIC.
> 
> I did not single out one aspect, I started a thread about why TARGET removed the games. I happen to agree with them but at the same time have also very clearly stated that all violence is abbhorent to me.
> 
> If you need it to be made clearer let me know.


In one post you SPECIFICALLY singled out one aspect, violence against women. Why do that if that isn't the most important issue about it all to you?

Here, this is the full post



Holland said:


> That is true but that does not change the fact that I do not want to live in a world or raise my children (of both genders) in a world that thinks that violence towards women is entertainment.


You may have made a disclaimer about all violence in other parts of the thread, but why focus on just one in this one? And its obvious you never played the game.

So yes, in one post you DID single out a specific aspect.

Then in another thread you are railing against men if they are shying away from commitment due to their experiences and insulting anyone, like myself, who feels this way.

So I'm getting a good feel about what you are all about.


----------



## AliceA

vellocet said:


> In one post you SPECIFICALLY singled out one aspect, violence against women. Why do that if that isn't the most important issue about it all to you?
> 
> Here, this is the full post
> 
> 
> 
> You may have made a disclaimer about all violence in other parts of the thread about all violence, but why focus on just one in this one?
> 
> So yes, in one post you DID single out a specific aspect.


So say I started a thread over an incident where I saw someone torture a dog and stated, "I don't want to raise my kids in a world where torturing a dog is considered entertainment", does that mean I only care about violence against dogs? Would you make this assumption and rail at me about my lack of compassion for other animals?


----------



## vellocet

breeze said:


> So say I started a thread over an incident where I saw someone torture a dog and stated, "I don't want to raise my kids in a world where torturing a dog is considered entertainment", does that mean I only care about violence against dogs? Would you make this assumption and rail at me about my lack of compassion for other animals?


No, you aren't comparing the two adequately.

There is violence throughout the game. The violence in the "cut scenes" which are put in the game by the developers are man on man. I haven't seen them put in any violence against women. And unless I missed it while watching my son play, I haven't even seen a slap to the face of a prostitute.

Now what the player chooses to do is totally up to them. They can run around and hit men, women, dogs, cars, police, military personnel, etc.

So when you have a wide variety of "targets", and you single out one, there lies the difference from your example.

That and there are other posts in other threads that indicate to me why one post of hers here decided to only focus on one aspect....the violence towards women, even though the developers didn't put that in the game, not at least from what I have seen.


----------



## that.girl

breeze said:


> So say I started a thread over an incident where I saw someone torture a dog and stated, "I don't want to raise my kids in a world where torturing a dog is considered entertainment", does that mean I only care about violence against dogs? Would you make this assumption and rail at me about my lack of compassion for other animals?


This example would be more relevant if they tortured a dog and two cats, and you only mentioned the dog.

Just sayin'.


----------



## AliceA

As'laDain said:


> my parents exposed me to various forms of portrayed violence when i was growing up...
> 
> my brothers and i often watched very violent films and played violent video games, and my parents would always make sure i understood the difference between real violence and simulated violence. they explained it in terms of emotion. they would ask me and my brothers what we thought we would feel if we were getting beat to death, or stabbed. and they would explain that in real life, someone feels that. then they would explain why they make video games that portray that activity...
> 
> because we all want to compete, and violence is a very simple way to say "im stronger/smarter/better/more powerful". my father would remind us of how we always want to be the better player when we play sports and such. and he would relate that to the video games. they are violent, but its a way to feel like your better than someone else, or something. its cheap self validation.
> 
> 
> so every time we played violent games, we remembered that. its just a simple way to feel like we are superior somehow, victorious, or like we are the champion. but my father also reminded us that it is false, and is no different than what we would find in a book.
> 
> and he was right.
> 
> this is why i dont believe that games themselves are what makes kids violent. i fully believe that its the parenting. my parents were pretty good about explaining things to us. even my mother, while she would randomly go into a violent rage, she still tried to explain things like that to us whenever she was coherent.
> 
> and to this day, i dont have any desire to actually make someone feel the way i have felt when i was either bullied or had my life threatened in an attack. im quite adverse to it. but i also play violent video games.
> 
> i dont believe in shielding my daughter from ANYTHING that she will eventually have to face. but i DO believe in teaching her and guiding her so that she can be a functional member of society, and be able to see things for what they really are. GTA is just a game. not a lifestyle to emulate. those who dont teach their children that are failing them, and many do that without the video game violence.


I agree that the games themselves don't 'make' people violent. However, they desensitise people to violence, which, in a violent world, is required, ALONG WITH other things. Parenting definitely comes into play here. If the child is not taught compassion, self control, self discipline and awareness along with dealing with violence, then the parent is failing them. I don't trust that many parents out there are good enough to teach this to be honest. They rely on the idea that 'it's just a game', and 'it doesn't make people violent' and leave their kids to it. Then all the kids see is violence with no self control, no consequences, no compassion and no awareness. I don't mean to offend people here, though I will have no doubt, but while I cringe at all the rules our society has to 'protect' us from ourselves, in this case, so many parents are sh*t at parenting that you have to protect their own kids from their lack of ability.


----------



## AliceA

that.girl said:


> This example would be more relevant if they tortured a dog and two cats, and you only mentioned the dog.
> 
> Just sayin'.


Ok, add to that that the post was about a video of the violence being banned due to the violence against the dog, due to them having sex with the dog first, then killing it, as opposed to just killing it.

Oh, and I saw the report on it, the guy can have sex with a prostitute in his car, then when she hops out, can run her down with his car.

Now, no doubt it's my turn to be railed at for even mentioning a female in this thread 'cause that must mean I only care about violence against women.


----------



## vellocet

breeze said:


> Oh, and I saw the report on it, the guy can have sex with a prostitute in his car, then when she hops out, can run her down with his car.


That is what the player CAN do. But he can run down men, dogs, police, just about anything and anyone.

The developers did not put that in the game themselves and there is nothing remotely close to violence against women in the "cut scenes", not from what I have seen. There are too many possibilities in that game. Its what they call "open world".




> Now, no doubt it's my turn to be railed at for even mentioning a female in this thread 'cause that must mean I only care about violence against women.


Aye yi yi.:slap:

No no no. Unless I'm wrong, you don't seem to have a gender bias. I haven't read that in any of your posts.


----------



## that.girl

breeze said:


> Oh, and I saw the report on it, the guy can have sex with a prostitute in his car, then when she hops out, can run her down with his car.


I'm fine with people taking issue with the violence. I just hate the whole misogyny angle they use in regard to this game. 

You don't have to pick up the prostitute. If you do, you don't have to kill her. That's the player's choice. You can run down three guys when you take her out if you want. I suspect Rockstar is very careful about violence against women, as it's almost never required to pass a mission (unlike violence against men).

Senseless violence, yes.
Desensitizing, maybe. 
Misogynist, no.


----------



## that.girl

This thread makes me feel like an endangered species. I am one of only a few feminist GTA players living in the wild.


----------



## vellocet

that.girl said:


> This thread makes me feel like an endangered species. I am one of only a few feminist GTA players living in the wild.


I said earlier that I don't play GTA. I have played it a couple times, but I don't own it and only have played a bit.

Never did I have sex with a prostitute. Run people down? Sure, beat up a cop, sure. But mostly exploring the huge map is the funnest part of this. Seeing how high you can climb a tower, building, stuff like that. Sure, the shootouts are fun.

But at no time did I ever purposely pick out a woman on the street, beat her up and think to myself, "Ya, take that b****"

Hell, on top of that, I've only ever been in one physical altercation in my life, and that was in my younger high school years. I actually avoid violence and have been taught, through over 25 years in the martial arts, to avoid it.

People take this game WAY too seriously, and those that take it too seriously are those that object to it.


----------



## CantePe

*Re: Re: Target removes Grand Theft Auto from its stores*



Holland said:


> Why shouldn't they be wouldn't they be worried about which games they sell? A week ago the petition had over 40,000 signatures. People have a right to be heard and it seems many find the game to be misogynistic and degrading to women.
> 
> Do you have the qualifications to make such a statement? OK I get it that some like this sort of violence but the flip side is that many find it reprehensible.


I'm a woman, its a friggen game. Don't like something don't buy it, play it, read it, look at it. It is our responsibility to judge what materials come into our homes or what materials don't. If people took responsibility for their own selves and values then these types of debates would cease.


----------



## As'laDain

breeze said:


> I agree that the games themselves don't 'make' people violent. However, they desensitise people to violence, which, in a violent world, is required, ALONG WITH other things. Parenting definitely comes into play here. If the child is not taught compassion, self control, self discipline and awareness along with dealing with violence, then the parent is failing them. I don't trust that many parents out there are good enough to teach this to be honest. They rely on the idea that 'it's just a game', and 'it doesn't make people violent' and leave their kids to it. Then all the kids see is violence with no self control, no consequences, no compassion and no awareness. I don't mean to offend people here, though I will have no doubt, but while I cringe at all the rules our society has to 'protect' us from ourselves, in this case, so many parents are sh*t at parenting that you have to protect their own kids from their lack of ability.


cant really say i disagree with anything you have said here...


----------



## vellocet

CantePe said:


> I'm a woman, its a friggen game. Don't like something don't buy it, play it, read it, look at it. It is our responsibility to judge what materials come into our homes or what materials don't. If people took responsibility for their own selves and values then these types of debates would cease.


And those saying its misogynistic and degrading to women, obviously haven't played it. And if they did, then they COMPLETELY ignored the fact that the violence that IS put in "cut scenes" and whatnot is man on man.

If the ability to run over a woman with a car is in the game, then the person that controls the outcome is the player. 

If a male player decides he is going to jump in a car and run over only women, then it could be said that the player is possibly misogynist.

And if a female player gets in a car and decides to run down only men, it could be said that she is a misandrist.

Its the player that makes the game what he/she wants. The developers didn't put cut scenes of women getting beaten all over the place. Men in the game cut scenes, however, are getting their asses kicked and killed left and right. Perhaps its more of a misandrist game?


----------



## Runs like Dog

Come on people if you're going to carry on throw all the nonsense into the bucket - Gamergate? Racial profanity over multiplayer networks? There's something for everyone to be absurdly outraged about. Get to it!


----------



## vellocet

Runs like Dog said:


> Come on people if you're going to carry on throw all the nonsense into the bucket - Gamergate? Racial profanity over multiplayer networks? There's something for everyone to be absurdly outraged about. Get to it!


Now THAT is some downright flagrent misogyny and violent threats!!


----------



## Lon

*Re: Re: Target removes Grand Theft Auto from its stores*



CantePe said:


> I'm a woman, its a friggen game. Don't like something don't buy it, play it, read it, look at it. It is our responsibility to judge what materials come into our homes or what materials don't. If people took responsibility for their own selves and values then these types of debates would cease.


I agree with your take on it... I have no intention to tell another person what they are allowed or not allowed to look at or how to spend their money.

I'm only commenting because this is a discussion I have an opinion on, and I'm just disappointed in my fellow mankind that they choose to feed their brains with so much of this stuff.

As for Vellocet saying it's an open world and the developers haven't specifically produced anything misogynistic, I agree with this too. However this open world concept with freedom inside the game is a missed opportunity for a wider customer base, but the developers instead opted for a target market that is willing to spend billions for the violence, and so they catered to that market by deliberately putting in as much violence to the cut scene storyline and gameplay as they could get away with.

If they had gone further, and allowed the possibility for virtual rape, incest, torture, bestiality etc they could have made millions more but they knew that it wouldn't get put on the major retailers shelves, nor the studios online stores.


----------



## Runs like Dog

vellocet said:


> Now THAT is some downright flagrent misogyny and violent threats!!


Well yes and no. It's still a game played with anonymous strangers you'll never meet. To me it's like going to the cops about your hurt feelings over an internet posting. Is that what we've become? A nation of snowflakes hardwired to weep and scream when the mean people kick us out of the cool group in high school?


----------



## vellocet

Runs like Dog said:


> Well yes and no. It's still a game played with anonymous strangers you'll never meet. To me it's like going to the cops about your hurt feelings over an internet posting. Is that what we've become? A nation of snowflakes hardwired to weep and scream when the mean people kick us out of the cool group in high school?


Maybe I'm misunderstanding gamergate. I looked it up on wiki and was focusing on the harrassment of "Zoe"


----------



## vellocet

I just now did a google search on this Zoe about gamergate and nude selfies of herself popped up left and right. ARRRRRRRR!!!!!!

Not a pretty sight.


----------



## richardsharpe

Good evening Lon
there will be a growing class of very open real world games. As the game engines allow more real world type actions, it will become difficult and artificial for the developers to prevent any sort of action. 

Any game that lets you hurt people will let the players selectively hurt women (or minorities or whatever). 



Lon said:


> If they had gone further, and allowed the possibility for virtual rape, incest, torture, bestiality etc they could have made millions more but they knew that it wouldn't get put on the major retailers shelves, nor the studios online stores.


----------



## WandaJ

great. I have a close friend child therapist. way too often parents would bring a kid and complain he is very violent, and aggressive. And then it would come up that he plays this game for hours everyday, earning points for things like killing a prostitute, and parents were completely unaware of the character of this game. They allow it because "everybody plays it".
The home assignment for family usually is "take the game away and report back in two weeks"....


----------



## CantePe

*Re: Re: Target removes Grand Theft Auto from its stores*



WandaJ said:


> great. I have a close friend child therapist. way too often parents would bring a kid and complain he is very violent, and aggressive. And then it would come up that he plays this game for hours everyday, earning points for things like killing a prostitute, and parents were completely unaware of the character of this game. They allow it because "everybody plays it".
> The home assignment for family usually is "take the game away and report back in two weeks"....


On that note, that is why the GTA franchise is not allowed to be played by my kids...AT ALL. However, not for the reasons stated above but because I do control how much my kids are allowed to view in the violence department.

My house, my rules. If my kids (especially my 14 year old, he hates this rule) don't like it ...tough.

I do let my 14 year old play games like AC (assassin's creed) and the last of us or the walking dead franchise. However the rule is (because the others go to bed at 9pm) not while the younger children are up to witness game play (the oldest go to bed at 11 pm).


----------



## As'laDain

WandaJ said:


> great. I have a close friend child therapist. way too often parents would bring a kid and complain he is very violent, and aggressive. And then it would come up that he plays this game for hours everyday, earning points for things like killing a prostitute, and parents were completely unaware of the character of this game. They allow it because "everybody plays it".
> The home assignment for family usually is "take the game away and report back in two weeks"....


providing clear and consistent consequences for the childs behavior usually works pretty well too. 

it seems such a simple concept to me... it works like a charm no matter the age of the child. 


so yeah, take the games away from the children that dont get taught proper discipline to begin with. i actually agree with this... they dont get exposed to enough real life lessons to begin with, no sense clouding their unguided minds with meaningless portrayals of violence.


----------



## As'laDain

CantePe said:


> On that note, that is why the GTA franchise is not allowed to be played by my kids...AT ALL. However, not for the reasons stated above but because I do control how much my kids are allowed to view in the violence department.
> 
> My house, my rules. If my kids (especially my 14 year old, he hates this rule) don't like it ...tough.
> 
> I do let my 14 year old play games like AC (assassin's creed) and the last of us or the walking dead franchise. However the rule is (because the others go to bed at 9pm) not while the younger children are up to witness game play (the oldest go to bed at 11 pm).


i assume you provide consequences for negative/destructive behavior? i can only assume so, since you care enough to restrict your children from portrayals of violence in order to avoid them learning violent behavior. it would only make sense.


----------



## CantePe

*Re: Re: Target removes Grand Theft Auto from its stores*



As'laDain said:


> i assume you provide consequences for negative/destructive behavior? i can only assume so, since you care enough to restrict your children from portrayals of violence in order to avoid them learning violent behavior. it would only make sense.


Absolutely, I'm very strict when it comes to bad behaviour. I grew up with strict rules and heavy responsibilities at a very young age (I was a latch key kid).

Strict bed time rules/routines. Strict television and movie and gaming rules. It took me nearly 10 years to allow toy guns in my house, I've eased up on some of my more archaic rules but that's because every person in our household has a voice and has a right to express their opinion and give input on the house rules (within reason and as long as the suggestions do not hurt health and safety then they get considered and discussed).

Not to say I've started out as the above, we have learned as the kids have grown to adjust our parenting. Parenting is always a learning curve.

ETA: I also don't always take their suggestions, after discussions if their suggestions on house rules are not conducive to the household as a whole they are vetoed. There are also some rules not at all up for discussion either.


----------



## Holland

vellocet said:


> In one post you SPECIFICALLY singled out one aspect, violence against women. Why do that if that isn't the most important issue about it all to you?
> 
> Here, this is the full post
> 
> 
> 
> You may have made a disclaimer about all violence in other parts of the thread, but why focus on just one in this one? And its obvious you never played the game.
> 
> So yes, in one post you DID single out a specific aspect.
> 
> Then in another thread you are railing against men if they are shying away from commitment due to their experiences and insulting anyone, like myself, who feels this way.
> 
> So I'm getting a good feel about what you are all about.


Ok tell me I am all about since you think you know. I would bet a dozed bottles of very expensive red that you are way off beam.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Revamped

Face it people...

Target would refuse to sell The Bible if it meant increasing sales in the jewelry department.

It has NOTHING to do with a corporate ideology and everything to do with getting their name up in lights.


----------



## AliceA

vellocet said:


> That is what the player CAN do. But he can run down men, dogs, police, just about anything and anyone.
> 
> The developers did not put that in the game themselves and there is nothing remotely close to violence against women in the "cut scenes", not from what I have seen. There are too many possibilities in that game. Its what they call "open world".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Aye yi yi.:slap:
> 
> No no no. Unless I'm wrong, you don't seem to have a gender bias. I haven't read that in any of your posts.


Lol, I know, that was me feeling super stressed this morning and taking it out on someone else. Sorry about that.


----------



## CantePe

I find it absolutely hilarious that I mentioned another franchise called Assassin's Creed. No one freaked out and yet I would have to say it is as violent in many aspects as GTA franchise but without the modern cars.

The main character for game play is an assassin, you can assassinate any background character along with the protagonist characters. You can punch people, shove them, there are prostitutes in the game, blood and gore and yet because it isn't the controversial GTA franchise no one even said boo about it.

The last of us is another franchise about post apocalyptic environment with zombies. You can imagine the game play in that one.

Funny how media can drum up these debates on a specific franchise...anyone ever stop and think between the media hype and what Target did is purely for their own benefit. People really think big corporations really care about morality over money? (That includes the game developer)


----------



## richardsharpe

Good evening all
GTA's sales are almost certainly enhanced by the controversy, which I assume they help push.


----------



## Lon

*Re: Re: Target removes Grand Theft Auto from its stores*



CantePe said:


> I find it absolutely hilarious that I mentioned another franchise called Assassin's Creed. No one freaked out and yet I would have to say it is as violent in many aspects as GTA franchise but without the modern cars.
> 
> The main character for game play is an assassin, you can assassinate any background character along with the protagonist characters. You can punch people, shove them, there are prostitutes in the game, blood and gore and yet because it isn't the controversial GTA franchise no one even said boo about it.
> 
> The last of us is another franchise about post apocalyptic environment with zombies. You can imagine the game play in that one.
> 
> Funny how media can drum up these debates on a specific franchise...anyone ever stop and think between the media hype and what Target did is purely for their own benefit. People really think big corporations really care about morality over money? (That includes the game developer)


I'm sure assassins creed is probably as desensitizing towards military violence as GTA is to thug violence. But I've never seen my four year old nephew playing it, nor have I seen the cartoonish posters for it in retailer display window I've seen everywhere for GTA V.

I have a friend that plays a lot of call of duty, and while I think it has relatively less senseless violence than other titles I still see it as overall harmful to peace in general. Him and I don't hang out much because we don't have much in common anymore.

Edit: err, I didn't even realize that assassin's Creed was was set in historical era, forgive my ignorance on the setting, but I still stand by my assertions of excessive violence.


----------



## vellocet

breeze said:


> Lol, I know, that was me feeling super stressed this morning and taking it out on someone else. Sorry about that.


Not a problem. I know you to be very level headed. No biggie.


----------



## vellocet

CantePe said:


> I find it absolutely hilarious that I mentioned another franchise called Assassin's Creed. No one freaked out and yet I would have to say it is as violent in many aspects as GTA franchise but without the modern cars.


That game is filled with misandry because of all the violence against men!!


----------



## CantePe

*Re: Re: Target removes Grand Theft Auto from its stores*



Lon said:


> I'm sure assassins creed is probably as desensitizing towards military violence as GTA is to thug violence. But I've never seen my four year old nephew playing it, nor have I seen the cartoonish posters for it in retailer display window I've seen everywhere for GTA V.
> 
> I have a friend that plays a lot of call of duty, and while I think it has relatively less senseless violence than other titles I still see it as overall harmful to peace in general. Him and I don't hang out much because we don't have much in common anymore.
> 
> Edit: err, I didn't even realize that assassin's Creed was was set in historical era, forgive my ignorance on the setting, but I still stand by my assertions of excessive violence.


I was just about to correct you when I saw you correct yourself. That's why I compared the two reactions. AC is very niche franchise if you ask me.

You did just prove something someone said earlier in the thread. That if you haven't played the game, you don't know about the game.

AC is actually a very well made game franchise and is similarly open world with main missions and side missions. Fairly historically accurate with environment game play and the new unity game is based in the French revolution. They released two new games for this Christmas season too, rogue and unity.

Granted definitely wouldn't let a 4 year old play any of these franchises mentioned in this thread. Heck my 11 year old isn't even allowed to play any of them either.

14 year old is mad at me for saying no to GTA 5 for that matter.


----------



## Lon

*Re: Re: Target removes Grand Theft Auto from its stores*



CantePe said:


> You did just prove something someone said earlier in the thread. That if you haven't played the game, you don't know about the game.


I don't want to play the game (either GTA or AC) because despite as amazing as the world and gameplay is, and how elaborate the storyline may be, I find it vile. I can handle violence, in fact I enjoy the competitive aspects of it, it is bloodlust that disgusts me, and these games not only cater to that market, but they help create it.


----------



## CantePe

*Re: Re: Target removes Grand Theft Auto from its stores*



Lon said:


> I don't want to play the game (either GTA or AC) because despite as amazing as the world and gameplay is, and how elaborate the storyline may be, I find it vile. I can handle violence, in fact I enjoy the competitive aspects of it, it is bloodlust that disgusts me, and these games not only cater to that market, but they help create it.


I totally get that. I applaud you for your stance. Its not for everyone. This proves my original statement in this thread that we, ourselves are responsible for our own morals and values and maintaining them not society, not game developers, not corporations and media.


----------



## Lon

*Re: Re: Target removes Grand Theft Auto from its stores*



CantePe said:


> I totally get that. I applaud you for your stance. Its not for everyone. This proves my original statement in this thread that we, ourselves are responsible for our own morals and values and maintaining them not society, not game developers, not corporations and media.


True, we are ultimately responsible for our own choices, that doesn't exonerate developers corporations and media from being responsible for their choices too. So whatever Target's real reason for pulling a game from its shelves I think it sends a good message, and anyone who dislikes their choice are free to go buy the game somewhere else.


----------



## CantePe

*Re: Re: Target removes Grand Theft Auto from its stores*



Lon said:


> True, we are ultimately responsible for our own choices, that doesn't exonerate developers corporations and media from being responsible for their choices too. So whatever Target's real reason for pulling a game from its shelves I think it sends a good message, and anyone who dislikes their choice are free to go buy the game somewhere else.


The problem is Target pulled the Xbox platform version and as far as I can tell they didn't pull the ps4 version or bundles packs from their shelves...


----------



## Lon

*Re: Re: Target removes Grand Theft Auto from its stores*



CantePe said:


> The problem is Target pulled the Xbox platform version and as far as I can tell they didn't pull the ps4 version or bundles packs from their shelves...


Who is this a problem for? Maybe they have licensing agreements with Sony that makes it too expensive for them to justify pulling those versions for the time being.


----------



## Fozzy

Concerned Citizens against Corn Syrup find K-Mart's open sale of Pepsi to be detrimental to the health and well-being of citizens everywhere, citing well documented evidence that corn syrup is garbage for your health. Protests and effigy burning ensues, and K-Mart quickly issues a statement condemning Pepsi as the evil poison-mongers that they obviously are, and pull all Pepsi products from their shelves. Meanwhile, K-mart runs a sale on R.C. cola.

See what happened there?


----------



## RandomDude




----------



## vellocet

I got one thing to say to Target

Best Buy......nuff said.


----------



## CantePe

*Re: Re: Target removes Grand Theft Auto from its stores*



Lon said:


> Who is this a problem for? Maybe they have licensing agreements with Sony that makes it too expensive for them to justify pulling those versions for the time being.


Well commending them for pulling only one platform version yet selling all others really isn't that moralistic. Granted they may actually have a licence contract with Sony that prevents it but you'd figure Microsoft has that same kind of contract too (they manufacture Xbox platform).

They are pulling a media stunt for more sales guised as a moral ethic which in the end isn't very moral after all and purely based on generating hype and profit.

Its a problem for anyone who prefers to shop at morally grounded establishments but are being led astray by the immoral actions of a corporation (target in this situation) claiming to be moral and hearing what the consumer in general has asked for.

They basically said OK, we will pull it off the shelves because you petitioned for it BUT we will continue to sell under a different platform to generate profit right to your face while doing so.

Has Target pulled their other sister franchise product off their shelves? Superstore is, I believe, a sister company. Doubt they've pulled the product off their shelves. Target bought Zellers (once an HBC sister company), closed most of the stores but not all but I can bet they didn't pull the product off the sister companies shelves there either.

So, pulling it off target shelves just pushes the customer to a sister company and they still make money off the product ...


----------



## RandomDude




----------



## Lon

*Re: Re: Target removes Grand Theft Auto from its stores*



CantePe said:


> Well commending them for pulling only one platform version yet selling all others really isn't that moralistic. Granted they may actually have a licence contract with Sony that prevents it but you'd figure Microsoft has that same kind of contract too (they manufacture Xbox platform).
> 
> They are pulling a media stunt for more sales guised as a moral ethic which in the end isn't very moral after all and purely based on generating hype and profit.
> 
> Its a problem for anyone who prefers to shop at morally grounded establishments but are being led astray by the immoral actions of a corporation (target in this situation) claiming to be moral and hearing what the consumer in general has asked for.
> 
> They basically said OK, we will pull it off the shelves because you petitioned for it BUT we will continue to sell under a different platform to generate profit right to your face while doing so.
> 
> Has Target pulled their other sister franchise product off their shelves? Superstore is, I believe, a sister company. Doubt they've pulled the product off their shelves. Target bought Zellers (once an HBC sister company), closed most of the stores but not all but I can bet they didn't pull the product off the sister companies shelves there either.
> 
> So, pulling it off target shelves just pushes the customer to a sister company and they still make money off the product ...


Well as I said, whatever their real intention behind this, and regardless of how flawed their logic may be, the result is that they have sent a message that GTA bad, and that is what I commend because in this particular case I agree (but I would still never support government interfering or banning it) And as you and i already agreed, it ultimately comes down to personal responsibility so if a person chooses to use a corporation like target as their moral compass that is their problem 

As for sister companies, I don't know which affiliations and umbrella corporations in the USA own all these department stores, but in Canada loblaws (superstore) is certainly not affiliated with target...


----------



## CantePe

I couldn't remember if superstore was a sister company of target. Thanks for the info.

I honestly think we are saying pretty much the same thing just with slight variation.


----------



## Runs like Dog

They must be drowning in video games over in Rwanda.


----------



## vellocet

RandomDude said:


>



No, it makes you a Republican


----------



## vellocet

Actually a game that would make someone a Republican would be Monopoly: The Personal Responsibility Edition


----------



## richardsharpe

Good evening all
Monopoly was designed to show how bad monopolies are. The game is intentionally deflationary, almost everyone looses money, the "winner" just doesn't loose so much.


----------



## IIJokerII

norajane said:


> So this is what passes for fun? And has people so addicted they stay up playing video games instead of having sex with their partner?
> 
> I'm glad women are speaking out, though I fear Target's loss is Amazon's gain. But good on Target for their support.


 Easy now Miss, the lovely woman called my STBXW abandoned her Marriage, Family and home for the men she kept, or keeps, meeting cause of this game. So assigning this as a mans only land is erroneous.


----------



## norajane

IIJokerII said:


> Easy now Miss, the lovely woman called my STBXW abandoned her Marriage, Family and home for the men she kept, or keeps, meeting cause of this game. So assigning this as a mans only land is erroneous.


I didn't say it was a man's game. I said I was glad that women were speaking out, meaning the women the article is about who started the drive to get it out of Target.

If men had spoken out about the violence in the game instead, I'd have said I was glad men were speaking out. If it were a mixed group, I'd have said they were speaking out.


----------



## Runs like Dog

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening all
> Monopoly was designed to show how bad monopolies are. The game is intentionally deflationary, almost everyone looses money, the "winner" just doesn't loose so much.


Tetris is unwinnable. It's just playable longer or less.


----------



## Runs like Dog

If my left shoulder wasn't messed up I'd take up swordfighting and combine it with Scrabble.


----------



## Pollo

norajane said:


> What about violence against men?


That's 90% of the games on the market. Want to ban all of them?


----------



## anonim

This is stupid. This is a game. If you dont like it, dont buy it. Dont think you have the right to choose for other people because you dont.

Jesus.


----------



## norajane

Pollo said:


> That's 90% of the games on the market. Want to ban all of them?


I said absolutely nothing about wanting to ban anything.


----------



## vellocet

Just got a PS4 in packaged with GTA V and The Last Of Us

Best Buy rules!!


----------



## As'laDain

the last of us is an awesome game... absolutely gorgeous on the PS4.


----------



## vellocet

As'laDain said:


> the last of us is an awesome game... absolutely gorgeous on the PS4.


Sweet. Haven't played it yet, wrapped it up for Christmas.

The only thing I ever play on the PS3, and now the PS4 after next week, is multiplayer like Call of Duty.

How is The Last Of Us multiplayer in comparison with COD?


----------



## As'laDain

vellocet said:


> Sweet. Haven't played it yet, wrapped it up for Christmas.
> 
> The only thing I ever play on the PS3, and now the PS4 after next week, is multiplayer like Call of Duty.
> 
> How is The Last Of Us multiplayer in comparison with COD?


wouldnt know. when i was playing through the campaign, i was living in a hotel for several months that had terrible internet. right now im living with my inlaws waiting to close on our house, and we still have pretty crappy internet...


----------



## CantePe

I have last of us on ps3. Phenomenal graphics and both story and multi player are superb.

Finished the game too.


----------



## vellocet

The MP on Last of US, is it adversarial, like Team Deathmatch and such, or is it all cooperative?

I gather there are no scorestreaks like CoD?


----------



## SurpriseMyself

unbelievable said:


> On Combat, Video Game Violence
> 
> LTC Dave Grossman is a retired paratrooper and a psychologist. According to him, games such as GTA are desensitizing kids to the natural human aversion to killing. In our Civil War, only about 15% of soldiers in combat actually fired their individual weapons at an enemy and even fewer used stabbing or cutting weapons in combat. Our military (and our police) use a variety of realistic training techniques to overcome this aversion and make killing more efficient. We use first person shooter "games" your kids would absolutely love and would probably excel at. We are deliberately training killers and you believe your kids are merely being entertained. I've been a soldier and a cop for over 30 years and I certainly see the difference in recruits of 1980 compared to today's. Lethal assaults against cops were far more common in 1980 than they are today but we didn't spend days on the range, firing thousands of rounds, or routinely carry militarized weapons on patrol. I had a revolver, six spare rounds, and a badge. Now, our guys ride around with a tricked out AR-15 with at least 90 rounds, a tricked out shotgun with dozens of rounds, a high capacity sidearm with about 60 rounds on their person at all times. These guys come to work looking like they think they are patrolling Baghdad on a bad day. I believe Grossman is onto something and, deliberately or not, we are creating young people who see killing as a legitimate and logical course of action to solve even minor conflicts. I have to watch this stuff for training but there is no way I'd let my grandchildren watch it.


What you are talking about is individual transformation, which may or may not occur for a single person. But on a larger scale, culturally, these types of exposures do change us as a society. What once was unacceptable becomes more acceptable, if not consciously then subconsciously. The real question is whether enough individuals are slowly being changed as to make a larger impact. Will we reach some kind of tipping point here? Many of us just shake our heads now when we read about mass killings. Columbine is a household word in America. There have been over 75 school shootings in America since Columbine, and a large percentage of them were committed by school age kids. What once was rare has now become commonplace. Why? What has changed?

List of school shootings in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## hawkeye

Meanwhile I sit here waiting for GTAV to come out on PC. This waiting game is going to cause me commit more violence than the actual game.


----------



## vms

CantePe said:


> I have last of us on ps3. Phenomenal graphics and both story and multi player are superb.
> 
> Finished the game too.


Sweet. I think I know what I'm buying next. I'm a big CoD fan. I mean, when else can I sit in my pajamas and yell "F***face!" at the TV then get my revenge?  It's like therapy!

As to the original topic, I like GTAV, but I am crap at anything that requires driving. I guess I'm not feminist enough to be insulted by a video game.


----------



## vellocet

Oh, and my son had GTA over the other night. 

So just for Holland, I ran over a *man* then got out and humped him


----------



## vellocet

vms said:


> Sweet. I think I know what I'm buying next. I'm a big CoD fan. I mean, when else can I sit in my pajamas and yell "F***face!" at the TV then get my revenge?  It's like therapy!.



LOL!! Love to fly off "#$%&[email protected] camping POS!!" all the time.

Speaking of CoD, I HATE Advanced Warfare. All that stupid jet pack double jumping crap!!! I don't want that crap in my CoD.

I know, there is a Classic Playlist, but its limited in its game modes.

If the next CoD has superhuman abilities and jet packs, I'm passing.


----------



## SurpriseMyself

vellocet said:


> Oh, and my son had GTA over the other night.
> 
> So just for Holland, I ran over a *man* then got out and humped him


And to think some of the men on TAM want to kick the girls off of the Men's Clubhouse forum! Oy...


----------



## hawkeye

vellocet said:


> LOL!! Love to fly off "#$%&[email protected] camping POS!!" all the time.
> 
> Speaking of CoD, I HATE Advanced Warfare. All that stupid jet pack double jumping crap!!! I don't want that crap in my CoD.
> 
> I know, there is a Classic Playlist, but its limited in its game modes.
> 
> If the next CoD has superhuman abilities and jet packs, I'm passing.


You guys should play Battlefield instead.


----------



## Cletus

SurpriseMyself said:


> There have been over 75 school shootings in America since Columbine, and a large percentage of them were committed by school age kids. What once was rare has now become commonplace. Why? What has changed?


Undoubtedly something very complex and hard to disentangle. Certainly these kinds of lone-wolf disturbed young man mass shootings are on the rise. At the same time, violent crime has been on a relentless decline - homocide, rape, stabbings - you name it, there is less of it now by half than in the 90s. 

I doubt anyone has a finger on the pulse of cause and effect here, although Freakonomics did do a chapter on their take on the falling crime rate. Let's just say that their conclusions were controversial.


----------



## vms

vellocet said:


> LOL!! Love to fly off "#$%&[email protected] camping POS!!" all the time.
> 
> Speaking of CoD, I HATE Advanced Warfare. All that stupid jet pack double jumping crap!!! I don't want that crap in my CoD.
> 
> I know, there is a Classic Playlist, but its limited in its game modes.
> 
> If the next CoD has superhuman abilities and jet packs, I'm passing.


I haven't played Advanced Warfare yet. I hated Modern Warfare 3's campaign though. World at War's campaign was the best, IMO. Very well done. 

I'm still playing Black Ops for multiplayer. I like the maps on it and I'm too cheap to buy a new CoD when I like the one I have.



hawkeye said:


> You guys should play Battlefield instead.


Tried it, didn't really care for it. Also wasn't a fan of any of the Halo games.


----------



## vellocet

hawkeye said:


> You guys should play Battlefield instead.


Will be getting BF Hardline after getting my PS4


----------



## vellocet

vms said:


> I haven't played Advanced Warfare yet. I hated Modern Warfare 3's campaign though. World at War's campaign was the best, IMO. Very well done.
> 
> I'm still playing Black Ops for multiplayer. I like the maps on it and I'm too cheap to buy a new CoD when I like the one I have.
> 
> 
> 
> Tried it, didn't really care for it. Also wasn't a fan of any of the Halo games.


If you aren't a fan of Halo or MW3, then skip Advanced Warfare. The "exosuit" play is junk and has people flying all over the place. Annoying as F


----------



## vellocet

SurpriseMyself said:


> And to think some of the men on TAM want to kick the girls off of the Men's Clubhouse forum! Oy...


:scratchhead: But I thought it'd please yall if it was only violence against men. Oh well, I tried.


----------



## unbelievable

SurpriseMyself said:


> What you are talking about is individual transformation, which may or may not occur for a single person. But on a larger scale, culturally, these types of exposures do change us as a society. What once was unacceptable becomes more acceptable, if not consciously then subconsciously. The real question is whether enough individuals are slowly being changed as to make a larger impact. Will we reach some kind of tipping point here? Many of us just shake our heads now when we read about mass killings. Columbine is a household word in America. There have been over 75 school shootings in America since Columbine, and a large percentage of them were committed by school age kids. What once was rare has now become commonplace. Why? What has changed?
> 
> List of school shootings in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


The military and every major PD uses first person shooter games in training. They spend millions on this stuff and they've been doing it for years. If it wasn't effective as a training tool, they wouldn't. No training program is 100% effective but if it isn't at least 80% effective, it'll get scrapped pretty damned quickly. Nobody has time or resources to waste on training programs that may or may not work. 

Why are more kids committing mass murder now? Several reasons. Fewer kids are living with a natural father in the home. Fewer kids are actually be raised by adult humans. Many are mostly raising themselves or they are being raised by TV, the internet, and GTA. In the majority of American homes, both parents are working, so somebody else or something else is raising the kids. Kids are going to learn and they will learn the most where they spend the most time. The notion that quality time is as good or better than quantity is just not true. There are consequences for replacing parent presence with electronic presence. Fewer kids are attending regular religious services with their parents. A bunch of Libs will pooh pooh and eye roll that explanation but there is a significant difference in the delinquency levels of kids who receive regular religious instruction and those who don't. The value of a human life is taught very differently depending on whether a kid gets the message from The Bible, the Torah, the Koran, or from a realistic video game where the winner is the one who kills the most people. 
They spend hours committing virtual murder and then put on headphones and listen to back to back songs about rape and murder. The parents dress them up like street thugs, vampires or serial killers and give them everything but discipline, instruction, values, time, and attention. Trayvon Martin's parents didn't have the foggiest idea where he even was the night he was killed until the police hunted them down and informed them. They weren't out looking for him or checking up on him and he had just been suspended from school for about the third time. My kid wouldn't have been out of the house. Why could cops find all sorts of violent pictures on his cell phone but his parents didn't? Somebody bought the 12 year old in Cleveland a realistic looking gun and what adult was supervising him at the park? Guess I was a hard a$$ but I knew what was in my kids' book bags because I searched them. I knew what was in their rooms because I searched them. I knew what was written in the journals and homework papers because I read them. I knew what they listened to because I listened to any CD they wanted to buy and if it was crap it didn't get bought. They played video games but not excessively and not pointless, violent or sexist foolishness. They didn't always dig the rules but they always knew someone cared enough to make and enforce them and I always told them how my rules related to their own well-being.


----------



## CantePe

vellocet said:


> The MP on Last of US, is it adversarial, like Team Deathmatch and such, or is it all cooperative?
> 
> I gather there are no scorestreaks like CoD?


Both, you can team up with another set of people or go it alone. Better to team up though. It is a real time game play, no pause button in either mode (story or multi)... You literally have to think on the fly, when making weapons, health packs etc it is all real time. You can get nailed hard core if you don't find a good spot to hide before making that Molotov or health pack.

The game is very well done. Not like COD though.


----------



## vellocet

Well, got the PS4, played GTA V a little more than just a few minutes when my son borrowed it from a friend for the PS3.

I played for a couple hours. It ROCKS!! And no, I didn't need to have sex with a hooker or even go into the strip clubs.

It just amazes me the time they put into this game. How huge the maps are and exploring it. I'd like to know how they do it? I don't think, with the exception of getting killed and starting back at the hospital, that I found myself in the same place twice.

Totally blows my mind. So FU Target. Don't need you with Best Buy around.

I hijacked a bus. Damn its slow.


----------



## that.girl

I was playing yesterday and heard Trevor (the craziest and most violent main character) yell at someone for calling a woman a b****. "Show some respect for women! You've got a mother, right?!"

I immediately thought of this thread.


----------



## vellocet




----------



## Extraordinary Way

I love the GTA series. Video games don't make people violent. 

I think it's incredibly funny to run over people, shoot cops, etc in game, but it's not ever something I'd do in real life. 

The games are also for adults. You don't want your kid playing, then don't let them!


----------



## meson

Holland said:


> I was so glad to see this on the news this morning. It is sickening to me that such a game with its violence and sexual violence against women is considered entertainment.
> 
> GTA5: Target Australia bans Grand Theft Auto V: petition


GTA V is still available in the US. My daughter just bought it from Target yesterday.


----------



## Starstarfish

I'm not a big fan of the GTA series. I probably couldn't pin-point why, it's just not my gaming style, I guess. Maybe the cooperative mode would be more entertaining. 

I will say though, that as a teacher it both amuses and saddens me when a parent will raise a stink over showing movie clips in class when discussing topics like any of the various armed conflicts America has been involved with because it will "damage their child" when self-same student often sits in class discussing their head shot count on whatever video game they played all weekend. Or how many times they've watched Saw.

Which isn't even about whether or not video games make people more violent or desensitizes them. (I'm not a psychologist or a scientist, that's beyond my scope.) But that at least for some violence for the sake of learning is abhorrent, but violence for the sake of entertainment is okay. 

Which, I have more qualms about "gore-no" films to that end. (IE - horror movies so into gore/torture they are almost porn-like in their treatment of the theme.) There's something far more disturbing to me about people paying money to watch real-live people have limbs cut off or be raped/mutilated for entertainment than watch little cartoon guys run around and blow up the cops.

As a historian, it makes me want to make some waxing poetic comment about the Roman Empire and when human life is something to be tossed away for the sake of entertainment in that manner what does that say about us?


----------



## CuddleBug

- I personally have never played the Grand Theft Auto games but I do know guys at the shop who love this game. These guys are married with kids, love their wives, kids and respect women. 


- The Grand Theft Auto series doesn't make them violent against women.


- I have played some really violent and gory games and that has not made me violent and commit crimes ever.


- Pulling it off the shelves at one store will only make people curious to why it was pulled and other stores will make even more profit selling it.


- If you take away something, people will want it even more.


- When alcohol was illegal back in the day.....people bought it more underground. Drugs are illegal, people buy it anyway. Music videos portray women as sex objects. Does that make me treat women I talk with as sex objects? No. And these are women making the music videos....


- Games today have real witchcraft and satanism in them, gory violence, harsh swearing, blatent homosexuality, you name it, and they have it. But now we pull Grand Theft Auto 5 because it has violence against women??? And kids play all these games and nothing is ever pulled or said.....I have seen games that are extremely gory, even for me, that make this Grand Theft Auto 5 look tame in comparison. Does that make me run out and do the same, nope. Why not ban these games as well???


- This is just another video game. an escape from reality and people aren't going to run out and commit violent acts against women or in general. If they really do, they have real issues in the first place.


Yet More Proof That Violent Videogames Don't Cause Aggression - Forbes


----------



## Lon

Cuddle bug, the game has not been banned, one store just decided to not carry it because the content didn't suit its stated ethical values.

I agree that there are a lot gorier games, and that if there is consumer demand for something then consumers will find a way to consume it.

My primary reason for participating in this thread is just to suggest that it's important to step back often and review the things we consume to be able to recognize the effects they have on us. Just like how the food we eat affects the condition our body is in, the information we take into our minds affects the condition of our mental state. And just like how one donut is not going to make anyone fat, nor can one video game give anyone a mental disorder. All I'm saying to people that think these games are great is to look the entire diet of information we feed our minds, and give conscious thought to how much of it you want to consume.


----------



## vellocet

Played it some more over the weekend and loved it!

I did do one naughty thing and went into the strip club 

But its ok, it was all consensual


----------



## CuddleBug

One store "Target" banned it from their shelves due to ethical issues, violence against women, etc.

That got my curiosity and now I'm checking it out and maybe even get it.

See how that back fired?

You can't ban a certain game from a certain store when others are far worse. Ban them all or nothing.

Consumers can chose to buy it or not.

No one is forcing anyone to purchase and play this game.

If someone already has mental issues, and they play a violent video game over and over, there are many stories of shootings, violence against women, and you name it, on the news.

Just because a game is out there, doesn't mean we have to play it. We can chose to bypass that game in protest, affecting sales and maybe the software company will change certain aspects of it.

I know this did happen with the Dragon Age Origins, 2 and 3 games.

Dragon Age Origins was a success and then with DA2 they went the console route instead of PC, dumbed it down and many die hard fans got mad and didn't buy it. Sales hurt with a lot of negative reviews so in Dragon Age 3, they did change it and made it huge with great features. Now there are great reviews and its a success.

I guess it comes down to the dollar. If it sells, makes big money, won't be pulled off the shelves anytime soon. If sales hurt due to people protesting this games content, they'll patch and change the game or stop making it.

But banning it from a certain store for whatever reasons will back fire. Gets people curious, check out the game more and maybe even buy it now versus before, its not a huge deal.


----------



## DanaS

WOW, I am real shocked to read some of these responses. I am a 44 year old woman that loves video games; violent ones included, and have played many of the GTA games and throughly enjoyed them. I guess that means I get some sick pleasure from seeing my own gender getting beaten up/killed etc. Yeah....

First off, I have looked into this and the women that started this were some ex prostitutes, not exactly the smartest around. 

Granted I was a tomboy growing up and I would have "sword fights" with my dad and brothers, wrestle etc. My husband has this (as do I) and we have a blast playing this together. Stealing cars, blasting big guns, heck even killing some hookers now and then and taking their money is fun lol. Guess my husband and I are just psycopaths. 

Seriously though, are those of you who complain about "violence" against any violence in movies too? The same kind of argument could be made for them "It's sick there are movies where cops are killed, or there are people shooting other people and blood splattering everywhere" etc.

It's because of women like these that I refuse to label myself a feminist, they act like they speak for all of us and GREATLY exaggerate things to garner sympathy. Last time I checked this was called Grand Theft Auto, but for those who don't know from reading what they wrote you'd think this is called Beat a woman simulator. It's NOTHING like that. You can shoot and kill women but they represent the minority NPCs in the game and it's little different that killing the men. 

Oh, and since I play online I can tell you you'd be surprised at the amount of women that play this, and they're just laughing and having a good time, but I guess according to many here we're just all insane for even THINKING about wanting to enjoy something that *gasps* has violence and some gore. Do you find boxing/wwf wrestling/ufc horrible too? 

Guess I better go tell my husband to get rid of all of his violent video games lest he become violent and one day think "Wow, beating people up is fun! I think I'll start by beating my new wife!" Give. me. a. break!


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## DanaS

I forgot to add that one thing I personally found to be repugnant was 50 shades of grey. I had heard big things about it and read it and I found the content pretty gross and disgusting and personally much more offensive to women than anything in GTA but hey LOTS of women love it and I sure am not going to go on a crusade to see it banned. 

What about all the rap concerts that have easily some of the most misogynistic words ever put to paper yet you go to a concert it's filled to the brim with just as many girls shaking their butts to it as men.


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## CantePe

DanaS said:


> I forgot to add that one thing I personally found to be repugnant was 50 shades of grey. I had heard big things about it and read it and I found the content pretty gross and disgusting and personally much more offensive to women than anything in GTA but hey LOTS of women love it and I sure am not going to go on a crusade to see it banned.
> 
> What about all the rap concerts that have easily some of the most misogynistic words ever put to paper yet you go to a concert it's filled to the brim with just as many girls shaking their butts to it as men.


50 shades is nothing of a representation of bdsm.

http://m.nydailynews.com/life-style/health/wrong-50-shades-grey-article-1.1425419#bmb=1

I have more issue with 50 shades then I do with GTA.


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## DanaS

lol I keep thinking of things to add. 

Does anyone here like Breaking Bad? Or how about Dexter? If so, how could you? After all Breaking Bad is about a deeply disturbed man glorifying meth and making profit by dealing drugs. And Dexter, it glorifies a man that thinks he should take the law into his own hands and has the right to kill/dismember all kinds of people just because they're bad. Or the TV show Weeds, which is also another show glorifying drug use and using an attractive woman to do it as well! 

[sarcasm]It's so sick we glorify those kinds of things on TV! I don't want my kids growing up in a time where drug dealers and murderers are considered heroes!![/sarcasm] 

I really wonder how many people here who find something like GTA terrible enjoy and even love the aforementioned shows or shows just like them. 

Sorry, but naturally as a gamer (especially now with my younger husband who plays real violent games all the time and has since he was a kid yet wouldn't hurt a fly) this really gets me. My ex husband who was my age never really played video games but he certainly thought violence against women was okay.


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## RandomDude

Good o' GTA 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8Y7MKFMkmI



> Dragon Age Origins was a success and then with DA2 they went the console route instead of PC, dumbed it down and many die hard fans got mad and didn't buy it. Sales hurt with a lot of negative reviews so in Dragon Age 3, they did change it and made it huge with great features. Now there are great reviews and its a success.


Erm, they consolised DA3 even more than DA2 lol


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## DanaS

CantePe said:


> 50 shades is nothing of a representation of bdsm.
> 
> What's wrong with ‘50 Shades of Grey’ - NY Daily News
> 
> I have more issue with 50 shades then I do with GTA.


Tell me about it, I threw it in the trash after I was done. What I will say though is I hate how easily feminists through around the phrase "violence against women" without going into detail about when exactly the line is crossed. 

If a game or movie has a antagonist woman that's evil and the main character beats her up/kills her does that qualify as violence against women? Does this mean that in a game/movie even if the women were fully covered up and no at all sexualised but, say most of those killed were women even if they were part of the female led evil cult and thus throughout the game/movie lots of women were killed would the get hate for being "violence against women"? 

Now, I don't condone it, of course, but I see feminists throw buzzwords like "misogyny" "violence against women" "sexism" at the most ridiculous stuff I just face palm. Going off what I have read feminists complain about, about the only sure fire way to make them female-friendly would to NEVER have an bad/evil female character, in no way should she ever get hit/killed no matter what the circumstances, they can't be at all dressed as "sexy" or attractive to the opposite sex.

And what's worse is so many women buy into this without having ANY clue what the subject matter is and just go on to condemn it just because; something feminists use to great effect. 

Hell, a feminist could write up an article about play doh being evil and someway, somehow so long as they put in keywords such as "promotes violence towards women" "sexism" "misogny" etc. they'd get tons of followers. 

Those kinds of words are SO overused for the tiniest most insignificant infraction whether it be real, or perceived that it actually makes the real thing look like a joke. And it's just one of the reasons I refuse to call myself a feminist because I am sick of using real issues such as those to further their own agenda and, as in this case, these women (who, again, are ex prostitutes) would be all for censorship/banning things that many women, such as myself DON'T want to see happen. 

You know, people always complain about "big brother" intruding into our lives but it sure shows that, given enough power/influence/seemingly noble cause big sister can be just as bad.


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## Lon

DanaS said:


> I forgot to add that one thing I personally found to be repugnant was 50 shades of grey. I had heard big things about it and read it and I found the content pretty gross and disgusting and personally much more offensive to women than anything in GTA but hey LOTS of women love it and I sure am not going to go on a crusade to see it banned.
> 
> What about all the rap concerts that have easily some of the most misogynistic words ever put to paper yet you go to a concert it's filled to the brim with just as many girls shaking their butts to it as men.


For me, I've always thought that there is a healthy level of aggression and violence that needs an outlet within each of us. When I was younger I was OK with violent gory entertainment, to a certain extent (the point where at least the image of the bodies of those being destroyed and desecrated had some kind of value that was being wasted, rather than just another kill of a soul-less meat vessel).

I don't know if it's that I'm more sensitive now I'm older, or if the baseline of what is considered tolerable depictions of human obliteration has been raised, but likely both. Either way I definitely witness that I am much less desensitized to the senseless violence than the average consumer.

I'm completely non-judgemental about the fact you enjoy violent games, my only concern is that you likely will not see eye to eye with me that the more the collective plays games like GTA or reads books like fifty shades, the higher we raise the threshold of what kind of morally heinous depictions is considered acceptable to it's audience.


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## vellocet

Had sex with my first prostitute in GTA V last night


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## Lon

vellocet said:


> Had sex with my first prostitute in GTA V last night


How was it?


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## vellocet

Lon said:


> How was it?


Sucked, she didn't take her clothes off!!


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## Lon

vellocet said:


> Sucked, she didn't take her clothes off!!


Clothes weren't real anyways, just pixels on a screen, lol.


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## vellocet

Lon said:


> Clothes weren't real anyways, just pixels on a screen, lol.


Well crap, could have saved myself $100 in GTA play money!


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## Cletus

vellocet said:


> Sucked, she didn't take her clothes off!!


At least she sucked.


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## RandomDude

Oh this is a must see!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aslJTk6AUkE&feature=youtu.be

:rofl:

Anyway, notable comments here:

Commenter 1: "How about you let them play the ****ing story instead of reinforcing the bull**** idea that this game is only about the degradation of women! INSTEAD YOU LITERALLY ONLY HAD THEM DO THE **** THEY'VE HEARD ABOUT!"
Commenter 2: "well if they actually let them play the actual story they would see that gta isnt about just going to the strip club and picking up prostitutes >.>"

Lol! Ah, reactions were great


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## sh987

My wife bought this game for me on Steam on my birthday a couple of weeks ago. She laughs her ass off when I play it.


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