# I need input/help



## bagelboy (Apr 22, 2008)

Im new here. This is my first post

Basically my marriage and job SUCK

Ive been been married for 14 years. We have two kids.

Ive been working in the same career for 16 years.

Ill try to make this quick.

Before I married my wife we were in pre-marriage counseling together AND individual counseling with the same counselor.
While dating he suggested we both make a list of top 10 things we are looking for in a mate.
I made my list, she made hers. We then shared the list.
I basically got a 10 out of 10 from her.
She got a 9 out of 10 from me.

#10 was.....physical attraction, looks, whatever you want to call it.

Basically, I wasnt attracted physically to her. She was overweight and Im attracted to thin athletic women who diet and workout and wear make-up dress trendy and hip.

I never felt right marrying her because of this. I had all these people telling me "Well, looks arent important if you really love her. We all will get old and looks go, then what is left?"

Well, right from our engagement I started trying to change her. We joined the gym and I showed her how to lift weights and we worked out 5 times a week. She was getting really hard and dieting..but she wasnt happy. And I never would give up because I feared that once we had kids she would stop working out and that she only did it so I would marry her..

I think I was right. Its been a slow downhill since then. 
She never got back to her former self and only does enough excersise to maintain but as she gets older its proving not enough even to maintain and she is getting wider and softer....VERY slowly because she does workout but maybe only 1-2 times a week, 3 times on rare occassions and then a week or two will go by with no excersise.

Diet is pretty bad.

I work out more than the average guy and Im in well above average shape for my age (44) she is 46.

Now she is getting wrinkly on top of it all. She looks like many 55 year old women I know in the face.

Ive hurt her over and over and over because she feels I should just find her attractive as she is and that love has nothing to do with looks. She feels she is doing fine and in shape and not fat and attractive.

Im tired and lonely . We havent had sex in a month now. Even when we do she needs to dress up sexy for me to even get aroused....also dark lights etc...

I dont see this changing. I dont see her waking up one day going....Jeez, maybe if I workout 4-5 days a week, eat a better diet and wear some make-up Ill be attractive to him.

I dont see myself changing what I find attractive...a flat belly (Im not looking for washboard abs), no rolls of fat hanging over pants, a little muscle, healthy skin, a little make-up and clothes that fit....versus the mens jeans she wears and the pants and shirts that accentuate every roll of fat she has.

We just went on vacation in a big city. I found myself depressed because it was like every women was thin or at least a flat belly and wearing clothes that were feminine and took some time to put into their looks.


Its late Im rambling.

To be continued....but Im open to first impressions and am here to get help and input


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## GAsoccerman (Mar 24, 2008)

Sorry to hear this, who ever said Looks were not important must have been a female, because to a Male, it IS important, we are visual creatures.

I know some people will bite my head off on here and disagree with me, But honestly, I have told my wife that LOOKS are important, I do NOT want her getting fat, I married a 98Lbs woman, stay within 20 lbs of that....Currently 110lbs after three kids, and now works out, we both work out, because I too was getting a "tummy" So fair is fair right? No reason for me to be out of shape if I ask that from my wife. 

But we do activities together, We run, walk, play tennis, things that can be done as a couple. Plus we do a weight routine, she follows the book, "New Rules of Lifting for Women" that give good solid workouts for Women, and it does not take an hour, but I been following New Rules of lifting for Men for a year now and My body ahs taken vcery nice shape...Which she has come to LOVE and other women that have known me all my life have commented, such as my sisters, that I really improved my physique.

Anyway, if you were not attracted to her, why did you date her? Why did you get married? Could there be any other problems with her? Thyroid issue perhaps? A co-worker was chubby and she had a thyroid problem, after seeking a Dr. she corrected it and is thin as a rail now at 40.

Looks only go if you let them, My goal is to be in better shape at 40 then I was at 20....at 38 I am there already.

You really need to discuss this with her.


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## bagelboy (Apr 22, 2008)

Thanks for the input

Dont get me wrong Im not angry at you so please dont take it this way...Im just frustrated and confused.

What in my original post made you think we havent been over the issue again and again and again? 

Weve been in counseling...4 different people.
They all say the same thing....its MY problem because your wife is attractive and way above average. 

Then I say...but not too me....None of them are looking at her physically. She is a very positive outgoing friendly person full of energy and positivity. She had a abusive background and has come a long way so to a counselor she is a huge success in life.

When I talk to my wife this is her response

"It doesnt matter how hard I work out you will never find me attractive. You never have so why should I bother. When I was in my best shape you still criticized me and said I need to get in better shape. I like the way I look and am happy with my body. Other people tell me Im fine and its your problem not mine. You need to stop comparing me to fitness women and athletic/bodybuilder types."

There you have it. 
She is partly correct. I AM a perfectionist and compare everything in life, her included, to the pefect ideal. But thats NOT what Im looking for and never have. I just want her to work out on a regular basis and eat a little healthier. Thats it. Because I know if she did that, that over time she WOULD be in the best shape she could and she would fit into clothes better and have a better self image and I would respond more naturally and it would be a domino effect.


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

Bagleboy

Interesting post. You focus almost exclusively on your wife’s physical appearance. Not her beauty of face or her personality, talents, skills as a mother. So therefore appearance is your number one concern. I feel that physical appearances hold different values from person to person. I focus less on physical appearance and more on someone as a person. To me it is not as important as who that person truly is and that is why I find my wife much more beautiful than the average guy. You and your wife hit critical points in your last post. She states that no matter what she does you won’t be happy. If that is what she feels then she is not motivated to stick to a rigid program. You state that if she lost the weight it would help her self esteem. This shows empathy on your part, not just a physical need. The two of you need to discuss and find common ground. See if you can find goals that you would both be happy with you have a chance to improve things for both. And if she makes an effort, give her great encouragement and love for it. That will motivate her as much as anything and help with her self esteem. Also In my opinion, knock of the dress up games and low lights. That’s not going to help her in the self esteem department either. If you are in the right mind set and love your wife you shouldn’t need that to be aroused. This may be difficult for you but think about it. You in turn may need to relax your expectations for her physical appearance and focus more on her many other positive attributes. 

P.S. Sorry your job sucks, we've all been there at one point or another.


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## carmaenforcer (Mar 7, 2008)

I suggest you at least start buying her some clothes that flatter her figure first. Arrange a makeover if you can, disguise it as a 
"spa day" if possible, this might help a little. 
To be honest though, it's more than likely a lost cause with women and asking them to change. 

I had a similar problem with my ex-girl friend of 10 years and so know somewhat what your going through. Mine knew how to dress like a girl, she was still young and she wore some make-up. The issue I was having with her was the weight thing.

Long story short, will elaborate if needed, but I started working out to loose weight. She joined in and I had to tone down my work-outs (jogging) to match her speed and stamina and she wasn't loosing weight. 
I also started watching what I ate and as a result lost even more weight, she didn't watch her portions and of course struggled in making any noticeable change. 
It did bother me a little bit because she would constantly complain about wanting to see progress but would not do what needed to be done, in my opinion.
The more I tried to help, positively encourage her, the more she rebelled. Looking for attention from other guys to feed her ego and boost her self esteem and ignoring my feelings. The easy fix of looking for some guy whom likes fat chicks instead of loosing weight to please the man she was with. This just ended up exacerbating an already existing problem I was having with her doing this type of thing (like I said, long story short but can elaborate if needed) and I ended up eventually leaving her for a tight tone 19 year old. Note I left because of what she was doing, her lack of respect for our relationship and my feelings, not because of her weight.

So what happens after we break-up she found a way to loose the weight for someone else. I shouldn't say that, she might have just lost it for herself, but she found a way to loose it.


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## draconis (Oct 3, 2007)

Wow, your wife deserves better. There is so much more to a person other then just how they look. What if she had a physical problem that she couldn't help were she gained weight, would you dump her in her hour of need just because she isn't that picture perfect gal?

So what she isn't perfect, she tries to please you.

draconis


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## sweetp101 (Mar 13, 2008)

I agree with Draconis. Your wife does deserve better. You may think you are all of that and a bag of chips. I bet there will be others that disagree.


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## swedish (Mar 6, 2008)

draconis said:


> Wow
> draconis


:iagree: my first thought exactly. My first impression...you sound extremely superficial in your post. I'd have to agree with your wife in that no matter what she does, it will most likely not be enough as you are already having issues with wrinkles appearing so even if she works on everything in her control you will still be unhappy with what is not in her control. If you lost your hair (maybe you have) and how would it make you feel if your wife said she did not find your bald head attractive? Most of the women I know in their forties don't work out at all, so the fact that she is going a few times a week is more than most. I'm not sure if she goes alone or with you, but my husband and I go together and it helps when one of us is not in the mood we talk the other into going...we also play tennis together...it just makes exercising more enjoyable for me. A huge motivating factor for me is the way my husband compliments me. When it comes to how I look, he's very positive & if he sees a cute top in a magazine will say 'you would look good in that' etc. If his comments were always negative, I can tell you it would have the opposite effect. I certainly would not go out of my way to please him. If my husband placed such a high importance on my appearance, I would feel very unloved for the person I am. I think you already figured out that trying to change her isn't the right answer. It's a shame you are overlooking a strong, positive woman that she is and wanting some arm candy/trophy wife instead.


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## SageMother (Jun 28, 2007)

This is going to be harsh....

You had no business marrying her, and I doubt that you have the mindset it takes to accept changes in a woman as she ages or has kids. Admit that you seek a lot of fluff and never pretend to want a permanent relationship again, then sit alone and watch yourself in the mirror as your face starts to age...you can't exercise that to keep gravity from doing its job. Then watch as all those little fluffy, perfect gals start looking at you as an old man and want nothing to do with you.

What goes around comes around...just wait and see.


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## bagelboy (Apr 22, 2008)

sweetp101 said:


> I agree with Draconis. Your wife does deserve better. You may think you are all of that and a bag of chips. I bet there will be others that disagree.


Hmmn, 

Actually I think very poorly of myself. I also feel depressed, angry, and beat myself up about every hour.

I wonder what I said in my posts that would cause you to write

"You may think you are all of that and a bag of chips"....

Couldnt be farther from the truth...

Internet is a weird place


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## bagelboy (Apr 22, 2008)

swedish said:


> :iagree: my first thought exactly. My first impression...you sound extremely superficial in your post. I'd have to agree with your wife in that no matter what she does, it will most likely not be enough as you are already having issues with wrinkles appearing so even if she works on everything in her control you will still be unhappy with what is not in her control. If you lost your hair (maybe you have) and how would it make you feel if your wife said she did not find your bald head attractive? Most of the women I know in their forties don't work out at all, so the fact that she is going a few times a week is more than most. I'm not sure if she goes alone or with you, but my husband and I go together and it helps when one of us is not in the mood we talk the other into going...we also play tennis together...it just makes exercising more enjoyable for me. A huge motivating factor for me is the way my husband compliments me. When it comes to how I look, he's very positive & if he sees a cute top in a magazine will say 'you would look good in that' etc. If his comments were always negative, I can tell you it would have the opposite effect. I certainly would not go out of my way to please him. If my husband placed such a high importance on my appearance, I would feel very unloved for the person I am. I think you already figured out that trying to change her isn't the right answer. It's a shame you are overlooking a strong, positive woman that she is and wanting some arm candy/trophy wife instead.


I dont want an arm candy/trophy wife...I just want her to do what she promised before we got married. I also am concerned about her health. Her whole family is VERY overweight, none of them excersise, diets are about 80% carbohyrdrate plus wine and some more wine.

I dont know what you look like. Its hard to tell if you are feminine, wear dresses, heels, or buy "pretty" feminine clothes or even care about your looks.
My wife grew up with 5 older brothers, a dad who was non-existant and a mom who wore the pants in the family. She didnt have time to teach her daughter about being a female.

In counseling the counselor said its obvious I LOVE my wife. 
Again, its easy to take what Ive written and make assumptions instead of asking clarifying questions.
So instead of TELLING me Im doing things Im not maybe you should ask first...."Are you doing this or this?"

What do OTHER women who dont work out have to do with anything. Im not married to another women...Im married to and committed to THIS women. I never had sex befoe marriage, either did she. Im in this for the long haul so is she. Im on this website for help and input not to get bashed.
If I didnt care then why the hell am Im looking for input?


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## bagelboy (Apr 22, 2008)

SageMother said:


> This is going to be harsh....
> 
> You had no business marrying her, and I doubt that you have the mindset it takes to accept changes in a woman as she ages or has kids. Admit that you seek a lot of fluff and never pretend to want a permanent relationship again, then sit alone and watch yourself in the mirror as your face starts to age...you can't exercise that to keep gravity from doing its job. Then watch as all those little fluffy, perfect gals start looking at you as an old man and want nothing to do with you.
> 
> What goes around comes around...just wait and see.


Wow...amazing that within two small post you could be so judgemental, bitter and angry.

People like you are the very reason the internet doesnt work. 
If you can be so judgemental so quickly over two post I cant imagine what you are like in real life...

Wheww...

Either you are correct after reading a few sentences I wrote and not seeking any more information or clarification 
or the counselor we just saw for 6 months, who said I LOVE my wife, we actually have a great marriage but with a few nagging issues, etc, etc....well then he is wrong


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## bagelboy (Apr 22, 2008)

GAsoccerman said:


> Sorry to hear this, who ever said Looks were not important must have been a female, because to a Male, it IS important, we are visual creatures.
> 
> I know some people will bite my head off on here and disagree with me, But honestly, I have told my wife that LOOKS are important, I do NOT want her getting fat, I married a 98Lbs woman, stay within 20 lbs of that....Currently 110lbs after three kids, and now works out, we both work out, because I too was getting a "tummy" So fair is fair right? No reason for me to be out of shape if I ask that from my wife.
> 
> ...


Thanks.
WOW,if my did those things I would be in heaven. Thats awesome. Just the DOING it is very cool to me because I know that it has emotional, physical, mental, and spiritual benefits.

Im interested...WHY does she do those things?
Is it because she is vain and all her self esteem is tied up in looks?...Im being sarcastic because some of these harsh, insensitive post who seem to impy that things are 100% black and white....if you want your wife to lose weight and get in shape you are EVIL.....


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## bagelboy (Apr 22, 2008)

Oh...I forgot....

Im getting the sense that the women on this board dont listen to or agree with Dr. Laura Schlesinger....radio host and author of 

The Care and Feeding of Husbands....

Im always amazed at the women who call in on that show and sound like some of you and she blast them and says....

woah....hold on....LOOKS ARE IMPORTANT TO MEN....being attractive, sexy, and "competitive" is important...


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## draconis (Oct 3, 2007)

I think the point many people tried to make is instead of accepting your wife or being their for her you insist on her living up to your standard and changing who and what she is for you, not herself. 99% of the time it doesn't work because the person simply feels resentful in the long run. I have seen this type of stuff over and over from the other point of view and it isn't great. They feel insecure, unloved, manipulated, controlled and taken for granted. Ask an alcoholic to quit drinking for you, it doesn't work they need to do it for themselves with you there to help them. 

With all she has done since before being married to you you come across as ungrateful, that is a shame. 

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions. You are welcome to take the ones you want and ignore the ones you don't like. But very few people here are ever here just to be like cheerleaders for whomever comes on. Many people on here are very compassionate people and all donate their time to respond to others.

draconis


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## GAsoccerman (Mar 24, 2008)

Well bagelboy, A couple of things.

Is your wife from an italian family? Pasta and wine? those are the corners of a great Italian meal...I'm jealous good food! 

Anyway, my main point was when you were dating her and you did get married...you blatantly said you were NOT attracted to her Physically, that pretty much you were convinced to go through with the wedding because "beauty is with in" Which is true to an extent, but that is something you have to come to grips with. You did choose to marry her.

I grew up not liking redheads, I dated mostly Blondes and I worship Brunettes....But go figure I married a Red head anyway!! I always found her very attractive from the moment we met, and that was a huge piece of the puzzle. I am still very attracted to her, I am a visual person I fully admit it, my wife knows I LOVE when she does her self up and wears her hair a certain way, but she looks just as good in "sweats and t-**** mode" with no make up. That was Key for me I hate to much make up.

Anyway, My wife does the things for me and herself because I asked her to and she also wants to maintain a healthy lifestyle. I don't stand over her and tell her what to eat, But I also ahve no problem telling her she is gaining celliulite on her legs. But Also she saw the Development of my body from exercising and Coaching my childrens soccer teams ( I coach 2 of them) My wife decided to join me in the work out's so I amde it a project and told her what to do and got her a book, I am there to be her Personal trainer, not a dictator. She loves that I am involved in her exercise program, because I offer encoragement and I will buy her work out outfits, because she looks great in them, Modest ones that is. Short's and t-shirt is fine.

She plays tennis with me because in HS I was the State Champion and I love to play it, She is HORRIBLE at it. But I ahve taught her how to play, and we will head over to the courts and play and also teach our children.

We are an odd couple, because my wife is "cute" she is not a 10 by most people's standards, but she is a 15 in my book, and she knows I love it when she works out that it is a huge turn on for me....which makes her feel good because she knows I just admire her, thus also leading her to keep her Girly looks.

I think your biggest isue is that you were never really attracted to your wife in the beginning and you married her becuase other people convinced you to. Thinking you would "grow into it" Unfortunately that is extremely tough, you are attracted to whatever you are.

I know the Moment I saw my wife sitting at the table in the cafe at work, that I WANTED her....this was 19 years ago. I can also descibe what she was wearing on our first date on June 11th 1999, at that time I did not know I would marry her, but there was a definate attraction....and the same for her. I know that for a fact, Because she was supposed to go out with someone else that night, she blew him off to go home and call me....been together since.


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## bagelboy (Apr 22, 2008)

GAsoccerman.

I would be interested to see what the people, especially women think of what you just wrote.

When I read it I almost cried because...thats NOT what happened to me...and I think its what usually happens to most couples and men especially. They SEE a woman and are physically attracted to her, THEN they get to know her.

Isn't that NORMAL?

Im committed to my wife and want to stick it through. The thought of divorce is....I cant think of it..I have two kids who need us to stay together.

Lat night my wife and I just read the first chapter of 

"The Care and Feeding of Marriage" by Laura Schlesinger together.

The main point she made is feminism has damaged the institution of marriage and that STAYING in a marriage even if its bad is better than divorce. Better for each person and better for the kids...she bases this on some long range studies at Cornell University.

I agree. When I look at the options/alternative I have to say staying is better than splitting for each of us AND our kids.


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## carmaenforcer (Mar 7, 2008)

I agree with *sage mother* about the mens aging and the younger girls looking at us differently, like a disgusting old man.
Lucky for us men that there is something that will make hot young girls overlook how old and nasty us men might end up looking,
MONEY! I mean look at that show "the girls next door" (the playboy mansion reality show) Hugh Heffner is old and nasty yet he has three HOT blonds having sex with him because of his money. This does not work the same for women though an old rich lady is still gross.


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## swedish (Mar 6, 2008)

bagelboy said:


> I dont know what you look like. Its hard to tell if you are feminine, wear dresses, heels, or buy "pretty" feminine clothes or even care about your looks.
> My wife grew up with 5 older brothers, a dad who was non-existant and a mom who wore the pants in the family. She didnt have time to teach her daughter about being a female.


I am very feminine. My mom grew up with 3 older brothers and much to her mother's dismay was quite a tomboy. I think my mother would have preferred I was that way. I don't know how much is nurture or nature, in my case I'd say nature. I love to get manicures/pedicures and shop, and learned to apply makeup on my own, because it interested me. The downside to being this way is the $$$ it costs...be careful what you wish for  I have some friends who are jeans/tshirts/no makeup and happy with that and others that are just intimidated (not sure what to buy how to apply it without looking like a clown) but would like to know...in those cases they have cosmetic counters in the mall department stores that will try products on you for free and they are good about finding the right colors and showing you how to apply it, etc...might be a fun suggestion if you are walking through with her some time. After I had my first spa pedicure I never looked back...something about laying there relaxing and getting pampered....aaaah...if she had a gift card for that...(I know it's toe nails, probably not the best place to start) but it might get her 'hooked' on the concept.


bagelboy said:


> So instead of TELLING me Im doing things Im not maybe you should ask first...."Are you doing this or this?"


I wasn't trying to assume you were or weren't doing something. I was merely giving you some input on what my husband does that works for me. When I have posted in the past, even if I don't fully agree with someone's response, they may have said a thing or two that is helpful to me in some way. 


bagelboy said:


> What do OTHER women who dont work out have to do with anything. Im not married to another women...Im married to and committed to THIS women.


I was (as I tend to do) looking at the positive side and what she IS doing (which in reality is more than most) rather than what you'd like her to be doing. People in general respond better to positive feedback than negative I would guess your wife might too.


bagelboy said:


> Im on this website for help and input not to get bashed.
> If I didnt care then why the hell am Im looking for input?


I didn't intend to 'bash' you by my response. The feeling I got when I read your post was that you made your wife sound like a very good person and it is difficult to then read your negative feelings about her appearance...but they are your feelings and you are entitled to feel how you feel, it just made me feel bad to imagine how this must make her feel.

And I am fully aware that men are visual creatures. I recently read a book called 'It's a guy thing. An Owner's Manual for Women' and admit I knew very little about how men think prior to reading this and he doesn't hold back. It's intended for women but you might find it interesting as well...that men are turned on by a woman's feminine energy...and if they are in masculine mode too often, it is not attractive. Reverse is also true...if a man sees a spider and screeches rather than gets rid of it, it's a turn-off to women. It also has a section on how work issues affect a man. Might be a good read for you both.


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## swedish (Mar 6, 2008)

carmaenforcer said:


> an old rich lady is still gross.


an old rich man is gross too...glad I earn my own $$$. But once in a while your bluntness does make me laugh.


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## draconis (Oct 3, 2007)

Originally Posted by bagelboy 
So instead of TELLING me Im doing things Im not maybe you should ask first...."Are you doing this or this?"

Responce ~ All we have to go on is the little information YOU give us. If people seem unenlightened then please by all means expand what you and only you know.

Opinions ~ All I ever have to offer is my opinion. When you say this is my problem, I can read your post try to understand it and reply the best I can. In the end it is advice that you must decide what it is worth to you. Some advice might not work, maybe you have tried some things already and forgot to post it. Don’t worry the best thing is on a forum you can slowly walk through the problem until you come to a solution.

There are going to be times you don’t like what other people have to say. Remember it is just their opinion or belief. 

Please don’t be rude, this starts flame wars. “You didn’t read this” Yes I did, but I may have gotten something different from it them what you wanted to communicate. Then again I may just see things and give an opinion you don’t want to hear too. “I was 15 years faithful, and one slip, she should forgive me.” I am not a cheerleader. If you want my opinion to this I would say no every time. You need to earn the love, trust and respect back, *IF* they want to take you back.

draconis


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## bagelboy (Apr 22, 2008)

*NO sex for 2 months*

Married for 16 years we are approaching no sex for about 2 months.

I am not motivated because my wife's body is turning me off.
She is getting out of shape, fat, and the stomach hanging over the pants is a turn off.
Also she bought these "man" jeans...they are boxy, ugly, and look like something a carpenter would wear....very unflattering.

Also, she is wearing them like every day.

I dont want her to be a supermodel or dress in a miniskirt every day but at least TRY to get in shape and wear some feminine clothes once in a while.

I just have no interest in sex because I dont think I could perform...

I DO want to be intimate with her again...


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## bagelboy (Apr 22, 2008)

I forgot that I made this post a while ago.

Things are "worse"?...I dont know, maybe they are better.

I re-read this whole thread.

My wife and I have not made love for about 2 months.
I dont want to. Im just not motivated. She isnt running after me either...
but, physically Im tense...Im excersising a lot but that only help a little.

We are reading, Marriage Builders by Hartley and answering the questions together.....Im a excited and motivated and hopeful but she said the other day..

"I dont think this is going to help us" I just dont care. Im at a place where Im happy with who I am and Im not going to change and I think you want me to change."

DO I back off and just stop doing the book with her? 
For the first time in my 16 year marriage Ive actually thought about "what if a another women found me attractive and took and interest?"

Ive never thought this until now.

My wife has just kind of packed it in. She is letting her body go to hell, she is wearing the most un-sex, unflattering clothes Ive ever seen.

Oh, one point. After being at home for 12 years with the kids she is now working as a teacher full-time.

Im nervous.


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## GAsoccerman (Mar 24, 2008)

*Re: NO sex for 2 months*

And what do you look like? How do you compare to when you got married? What was your waist then, what is it now? How about her?

you sound shallow tight now, but I know where you are comming from.


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## bagelboy (Apr 22, 2008)

*Re: NO sex for 2 months*



GAsoccerman said:


> And what do you look like? How do you compare to when you got married? What was your waist then, what is it now? How about her?
> 
> you sound shallow tight now, but I know where you are comming from.


Im in better shape than ever.

She is in much worse shape

But why does that matter?

I know I sound shallow but I probably havent explained myself enough.

I responded to my old thread....that might be better


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## Mr B (Feb 6, 2009)

To say men are visual creatures is an understatement. Our visual sense is our primary mating/sexual sense. It is extremely difficult for a man to become aroused (without 3 or 4 drinks ) by a woman he is not attracted to.

It's hard finding that perfect combination of looks and a personality that you want to spend more than a few days with. I too married a buddy I wasn't sexually attracted to. I'd put off marriage until I was almost 40 because I loved the variety and excitement of being single. But in all those years I had never met someone I was sexually attracted to that I also wanted to marry. I wanted kids so I said "what the hell, I've had lots of nice looking women, maybe I can learn to get turned on by her" She had so many other good things going and I had come to the point were I felt a combination sexual attractiveness and a personality I could live with for years and years was too rare to wait any longer, I wanted kids and didn't want to be an old man when they were in high school.

Big mistake. I know where you are coming from 100%. Now, like you, I did try to change her- suggesting breast implants, lipo, change of hair color etc., but she refused and needless to say our marital sex life has been a disaster. I am still very puzzled by this because if it was me, I'd do whatever it took to make a spouse want me sexually. Like you, I'm pretty fit anyway because I'm a runner.

As to what can be done, other than leaving, which if you have kids is really a non starter, I don't know. Survive. Depending on your scruples there are affairs, porn, cybersex. All poor replacements for the real thing but certainly the choices of millions of men in the same situation. After all, why do you think porn is a multibillion dollar business? The answer is simple, sexually frustrated and bored married men who are not sexually attracted to their wives. 

The real sad part is that the older you get the less options you have. Therapy and antidepressant meds can help. They won't make you suddenly become sexually attracted to your spouse but they can make the sadness and regret a bit easier to deal with.


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## bagelboy (Apr 22, 2008)

Mr. B,
Thanks? 

Your post made me feel good and bad

Just for the record. I dont want to CHANGE my wife, I just want her to be a fit version of what she already is.

We had a LONG, two hour conversation this morning.

It was rough, I dont know if it helped.

Im sick over it.

One thing that I have not mentioned in this post..

I have the same feelings about
my job
other relationships
God/Spirituality
life in general

In other words, Im generally depressed, angry, a perfectionist...

within that though I have moments of light, joy, and happiness.

My wife thinks maybe we DID make a mistake. But she says divorce isnt an option...

so we are trying to make the best of it.

Im really wiped out and Ill come back later.

THe summary from our conversation this morning

My wife HAS met my need for physical attraction/sex at different points in our marriage.
I HAVE met her need for affection/friendship at times in our marriage.....

its just that those are the exception.

I hand out affection when she is in shape/thinner
She works out/diets when she feels affection/love

SO you can see how these things are hot button issues.

My goal is to show her love and affection...I dont have a problem being her friend and doing things for her...its the "you look great today, or wow, you are so beautiful" piece that is harder for me

In return, if Im NOT doing those things its hard for her to want to work out or do anything because she doesnt feel loved.

I guess we just have to both be other-centered and get out of our comfort zone....that is kind of what we decided this morning.


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## martino (May 12, 2008)

Bagelboy you and her are starting new, if in 6-12 months you are still unhappy and nothing has changed...do her and yourself a favor and call an attorney. I know this is easy advice to give, but c'mon you sound as unhappy as it gets.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

Mr B said:


> Now, like you, I did try to change her- suggesting breast implants, lipo, change of hair color etc., but she refused and needless to say our marital sex life has been a disaster.


Mr. B. You're making me sad.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

bagelboy said:


> I know I sound shallow but I probably havent explained myself enough.



bagelboy & Mr. B. -

I'm sorry but the S word does indeed come to mind.

If you both stopped masturbating for a month, you would be wanting sex... even with your wives


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## Mr B (Feb 6, 2009)

Hey Mark....well I really wish it were so simple. It would be if bagelboy and I were female. Women who can't get aroused by a partner can still have sex. You know...a little lube and lie back and think of England....lol

But as you well know if a man isn't aroused nothing happens and all the Viagra and abstinence in the world can't negate that fact. Believe me if I could give my wife "mercy sex" I would. And I have tried, even going to therapy to figure out if there was a way without any luck. We all make mistakes and the important thing is how we handle them. I gave up trying to change my wife and sadly, bagelboy may end up having to do the same. I hope not and I wish him all the luck in the world.


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## T.O.girl (Dec 18, 2008)

carmaenforcer said:


> Lucky for us men that there is something that will make hot young girls overlook how old and nasty us men might end up looking,MONEY.


yeah and then they dump you after they have used up all your money. I got a lot of hot girlfriends, let me know if you need some one to help you spend your money...



bagelboy said:


> I basically got a 10 out of 10 from her.
> She got a 9 out of 10 from me. #10 was.....physical attraction, looks, whatever you want to call it.


you should be happy you got 90% of what you were looking for. most people don't even get 60



bagelboy said:


> Im in better shape than ever. She is in much worse shape. But why does that matter?


it matters a lot, most of the time it's the untractive short, fat, ugly, broke husbands who complain most about their wives being untractive, fat...so you might be in a better shape but if you don't mind what's the specifics? what's your size, weight, height,...???



bagelboy said:


> One thing that I have not mentioned in this post..I have the same feelings about my job
> other relationships God/Spirituality life in general In other words, Im generally depressed, angry, a perfectionist...


obviously it's not her, it's you...i feel sorry for her but at the same time she willingly married an emotianal, verbal abuser ...that was not very smart...



bagelboy said:


> GAsoccerman, I would be interested to see what the people, especially women think of what you just wrote.


it's not what you say, it's how you say it, i have no issue with what GAsoccerman said, he obviously knows how to comminicate with his wife...


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

Mr B said:


> Hey Mark....well I really wish it were so simple. It would be if bagelboy and I were female. Women who can't get aroused by a partner can still have sex. You know...a little lube and lie back and think of England....lol
> 
> But as you well know if a man isn't aroused nothing happens and all the Viagra and abstinence in the world can't negate that fact. Believe me if I could give my wife "mercy sex" I would. And I have tried, even going to therapy to figure out if there was a way without any luck. We all make mistakes and the important thing is how we handle them. I gave up trying to change my wife and sadly, bagelboy may end up having to do the same. I hope not and I wish him all the luck in the world.


Your real problem is intimacy. It's written all over you. You've gone to huge lengths to avoid meeting yourself on an intimate level. It's you that you can't stand, but it manifests as shallowness towards others. 

By the way, I asked my wife how she would react if I suggested she get breast implants. She said she "would divorcee me for being so ridiculously shallow" - Her words.

I'm pleased to hear it.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

Mr. B. Please don't think I'm trying to run you down. However, it might be instructive for you to read your own words:



Mr B said:


> Now, like you, I did try to change her- suggesting breast implants, lipo, change of hair color etc., but she refused and needless to say our marital sex life has been a disaster.





Mr B said:


> I gave up trying to change my wife and sadly, bagelboy may end up having to do the same. I hope not and I wish him all the luck in the world.


Who is it who needs to change? What needs to change? Is divorce so bad under these circumstances?


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## bagelboy (Apr 22, 2008)

T.O.girl said:


> yeah and then they dump you after they have used up all your money. I got a lot of hot girlfriends, let me know if you need some one to help you spend your money...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## bagelboy (Apr 22, 2008)

MarkTwain said:


> Your real problem is intimacy. It's written all over you. You've gone to huge lengths to avoid meeting yourself on an intimate level. It's you that you can't stand, but it manifests as shallowness towards others.
> 
> By the way, I asked my wife how she would react if I suggested she get breast implants. She said she "would divorcee me for being so ridiculously shallow" - Her words.
> 
> I'm pleased to hear it.


*For the record....

I would NEVER want my wife to have ANY plastic surgery of any kind. I would never her ask her to do that...*


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

bagelboy said:


> *For the record....
> 
> I would NEVER want my wife to have ANY plastic surgery of any kind. I would never her ask her to do that...*


I was referring to Mr. B.


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## T.O.girl (Dec 18, 2008)

bagelboy said:


> My wife knows the difference when something is real or contrived. We just talked about that this morning. I asked her to let me know how I can communicate affection without coming off as fake.


i think there are somethings you should just never say to your partner...i don't think you should ever criticize their physical appearance...for example 4 of the guys i dated, i wasn't physically attracted to them one was too skinny, another was a little chubby and another one was too short and another one had a very small you know what...sometimes before getting intimate with them, i woud watch porn first to get myself aroused...they didn't know the real reason, they just thought i was a real cool freaky chick...every man's fantasy...they had good personalities, fun, considerate people and i got involved in the relationships thinking i would eventually become attracted to them...however when that didn't happen, i would decide to end the relationships without telling them the real reasons...i came up wih other reasons for example i wasn't ready for a commitment, or any other reason...in the meantime, i never criticize them, i always complimented them on their looks...till now i'm still good friends with them...



bagelboy said:


> Not that this helps, but I do this same obsessing with work, my own body, finances, you name it.


another example: my best friend and her common law husband have been together for 8 years. She's 28 now and he's 46. When they met she weighted 115lb, she's 5'3". She worked in retail selling shoes and clothes so she was alwas up in her high hills walking around, that's how she maintened her figure. But now she's a real estate agent. She spends most of her time driving from point A to point B to point C...showing houses. So she has gained 5 pounds. Her husband always criticize they way she looks, calling her fat and everything...She's lucky if she gets sex from him once every other month. However she stays with him because other than that he's a sweetheart, he cooks, he cleans, he has money, and he gives her oral sex once in a while...However this is not enough for her, she's very sexually frustrated so she has been going ouside her marriage to get her needs fullfilled. i know at least 10 guys she has cheated with, and i'm not counting the guys she hooks up with when she travels...she's still very beautiful, she has no problem attracting men, she has been featured in 2 music videos so you can imagine how hot she's. however her husband still doesn't find her attractive enough even tho she exercises, runs, does her sit-ups everyday and spends all her money and some of his money on designer clothes, makep up,...so he has turned a beautiful, confident, faithful woman into a low self-esteem cheater who needs validation from other men...

So my point is you need to figure out what's the real issue, what if your wife loses the weight, will you still find something else to criticize? can you find an individual counselor and keep (at least hide) your negative thoughts away from your wife? right now, you are killing her self-esteem...can you get viagara in a meantime?...she doesn't even have to know. Right now you have to help her rebuild her self-esteem before it's too late...


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## bagelboy (Apr 22, 2008)

T.O. Girl

Are you familiar with the emotional bank account concept?

In summary, every time you give your spouse a compliment/affirmation you make a deposit in her account.

Every time you do the opposite you make a withdrawl.

I dont want to give the impression that I have only made withdrawls the past 17 years! Ive made A LOT of deposits, but yeah, definitely more withdrawls.

It should be the other way around.

You have a lot of good insights and Im listening.

Part of it is that we are on the one hand a weird match
Me- drummer, bodybuilder, obsessive compulsive perfectionist and I look 10 years younger than I am

Her-scientist, non athletic, easy going love everyone, looks 10 years older than she is.

But we also have history, commitment, we were basically both virgins at marriage (a girlfriend gave me oral...but there was no intercourse...), we love being parents and have two great kids, we have hobbies we do together

But...we HAVE moved apart....

Im not giving up yet....


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## GAsoccerman (Mar 24, 2008)

Hey Bagelboy,

I bet your like me, I am almost 40 and I am in better shape now at 40 then I was at 20 ( i'm 39 for the record)

But I made myself a goal and I followed about 2 years ago, after a picture my sister took of me down the shore.

As you know we are visual.

I noticed my wife gaining weigth and I said something to her, she she is normally a smal skiiny woman, any extra "weight" could be a serious health risk for her. she is not built bone wise to be large, she has a tiny frame and I explained that to her, the "pouch" is not going to disappear nor do I care if it stays or goes, but I think she should stay toned for her own health reasons.

Staying fit and healthy is good for the mind, body and soul.

Over eating, depression, and non-athletic has been proven to be disasterous for the American population.

I ahve my wife exercise with me and I act as her coach. She loves the fact I find her sexy 20 years later, she is not self driven to stay in shape, I definately drive her there, but she loves that I am "so into her" 

She has desired plastic surgery as a "quick fix" and I nixxed the idea, I told her I rather take the long road of working out and eating right as our human bodies were designed to do.


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## bagelboy (Apr 22, 2008)

My wife is big boned and her whole family naturally leans towards caring lots of Irish Potato arms and belly fat.

In this sense she is way ahead and is actually in better shape than anyone in her family....but thats not saying much because they are REALLY out of shape...

Funny thing happened yesterday.
Im a musician and had a great concert a few nights ago. I was feeling really pumped, on top of the world. Then part of another concert got posted on youtube.com and a bunch of my musician friends watched it and gave me lots of praise for my playing.

That day I found myself REALLY attracted to my wife and I somehow overlooked that "faults" I was finding before.

So this is showing me that I have bigger issues and have conditioned myself or got into a habit of trying to control her, or look to her body for making me feel good when Im down about career. 
Its not good, IM not making excuses...Im just admitting I have a bigger problem than sexual stuff, that really I AM attracted to her, yeah she could lose 15 pounds and replace it with some muscle, but aside from that....its really about me and my self-image, career, and this horrible habit of thinking....well, if my wife was rock hard THAT would make these painful feelings go away.....

Im admitting its complicated...


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