# Feels like I'm nothing



## MysticMouse (Dec 17, 2012)

When I was 15 I moved out due to a very abusive home life. My father tried to kill me when I was a baby so he was not around. My mother was a feminist and viewed me as an anchor weighing her down. She tried to self abort a few times when she found out she was pregnant, and told me about it whenever she was in a foul mood. 

I continued going to school after moving out, and otherwise appeared to be living a normal life.

By the time I was 17 I had a large number of girlfriends on rotation, and a steady 19 year old sex addicted girlfriend. I was still going to school and had my own apartment. No furniture, but it was mine. I met my future wife at this time but kept her in the friend zone.

At 18 the best way to put it is I got lonely. I had all the sex I wanted, my own place etc, but I felt very alone. I knew the relationships I had weren't going anywhere. I wanted to have something better. I would see the family specials on TV with everyone sharing family get togethers etc and I wanted to love and be loved like that.

That was when I moved my wife to be out of the friend zone. She was a "good girl" and had been a good friend. I worried about losing her as a friend if things didn't work out, but I thought she was the best choice for a more meaningful relationship because she was my friend first.

Things progressed and after a couple of years she moved in with me. Sex was limited to variations of the missionary position but I took it as a trade off for having a "good girl" as a wife. About this time I resumed contact with my mother. 

A couple of years later my wife and I married. 

Three years later we had our first child.

Another three years later our second child was born and my wife got cancer. I took care of her and the baby and worked at night. My mother and her sister took care of her and the baby at night.

She survived cancer but we were wiped out financially. After three years of struggling we moved to another state for the lower cost of living. We were both able to transfer our jobs.

A month after moving my youngest child was diagnosed with a terminal condition. They told us our options and none of them were good. We selected experimental treatment. In the end it was the most chance for him to have a normal life.

Another five years go by and everything is better than expected. We have a house dog and happy kids. My son is still undergoing medical treatment but it's going better than expected and he's living a fairly normal life. I gained weight at this time; 80 pounds actually. That's when things start to go south. My mother was out of work for two years, gone through her savings, and now in bankruptcy. I agreed to let her move in for a year to get through her bankruptcy, find a job and get back on her feet. 

Things went along ok for about six months but then my wife and mother had a fight. Neither one was willing to let it go, and blow the fight up bigger than it was.

I talked to them both seperately and asked them to get along until my mother moves out. 

My wife starts telling me my mother has to move immediately. I told her I didn't think she was ready to yet and I didn't want to send her off too early and have her go right back to where she was when she moved in.

After this my wife kept herself locked in ourbedroom and started playing a game on her phone. Three months in she started dieting and even working out. She also started wearing a lot of makeup. Sex becomes what I call museum sex. Don't touch anything just make your donation and leave. I tell her when I've seen women acting like that they are usually looking for a new boyfriend. She tells me I'm being insecure and she would never leave me.

Six weeks later she's playing the game a lot, and really dieting. She starts buying new clothes. She also starts calling me mommas boy. I tell her I don't like her p[laying the game so much and I realy don't like being called mamas boy. She says it's a distraction that she needs and she doesn't mean anything bad by calling me mommas boy. 

After three weeks we're talking. She tells me if we ever broke up she'd like to remain friends with me. Itell her if she was messing with another guy while were married i'd kill the guy. She says I would think you would want me to be happy. That's when I knew she was interested in someone else. At the same time I go into denial. She's the only person I ever trusted so I try to keep my trust in her.

For the next two weeks things continue to spiral downhill. I keep trying to win her over. Spoil her. Make her happy. Trying to get her back but she keeps drifting further and further away. Finally I couldn't take it anymore. I decide there is no way I can continue lying to myself. I know there is something going on.

I buy her a new phone and use looking at the new phone as an excuse to log into her game account. There is a new message for her in the game from some guy titled "french kissing". All other messages have been deleted. I ask her about it. She lies and says she doesn't know why he sent that. She says she would ask but hes not online. I had already checked and he was online.

The next day I log into her gmail account. There's nothing in it. I look in the trash. It's full of deleted conversations. She's telling him all kinds of stories about me, and sexting with him. She tells him she doesn't want me anymore but wants him. Then I see she's sexting another guy on the side. Then I find conversations with a third guy talking about her affair.

It just keeps getting worse. Pictures of her neked body. Him saying what he wants to do to her. Picture in her new clothes she asked me to take of her. Then I find she has a second email account. I break into that account and find nothing except that she has emailed the guy from there. She has deleted the emails.

I went home and started drinking. I don't know how much I drank but it was a ton. She called me on her way home from work. Asked me to make myself and the kids a sandwich for dinner so she could right to bed.

I told her I know about your affairs. She said what are you talking about. I said I know about *******. She said I'll be right home.

We have a big fight. I tell her to get out. She begs and pleads. I tell her to tell me everything. She agrees. She tells me everything I already knew. At that point we wind up having sex initiated by her. I'm so confused at this point I give in, but I'm wondering the entire time who shes thinking of while we have sex. It lasts the entire night. She does things she claimed she couldn't do. To shy etc...

The next day I continue my search through her email. I find even more. It's actually worse than I thought. I find so much I start obsessing and just digging through it all. It just goes on and on. That night I get drunk and confront her again. I tell her about all of the new things I learned. Ask her again for the whole truth. She goes down the list and tells me a lot of stuff including some things I didn't tell her I knew. We have another round of reduculous sex. 

For the next two weeks we talk about the affair then have sex all night until we pass out.

When It's all said and done I'm a confused mess. For the sexting with the friend she says she didn't do anything with him and got irritated. I can only read his half of the conversation so it could be true, but I really don't know. 

The other guy she says she didn't do much it was mostly him. The examples she gives is she said things like "i want to kiss you from head to toe".

I really feel like I've only scratched the surface. Both of these guys are 1000 miles away. I have no way to get anymore information from them. I don't want to give my kids a broken home I want the TV family specials for their childhood. I want my happy family. I want my wife to love me faithfully. I want the affairs to never have happened.

It's now been four months. I feel like I'm in the dark but she won't confess to any more than she has. Maybe there is no more to confess to. I don't actually know. She is being such a great wife now, and the sex is no longer just simple sex like it was, but then again. Where did she learn to give great blow jobs. She says she looked online so she could spoil me. Damn it. Four months in and I'm confused as hell.


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## Ovid (Oct 11, 2012)

Damn... Just damn...


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## CH (May 18, 2010)

She used the sex to F over your mind. And it worked.

Stop sleeping with her, get her out of your hair for a little bit to clear your mind so that you can think rationally.


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## remorseful strayer (Nov 13, 2012)

MysticMouse said:


> I told her I know about your affairs. She said what are you talking about. I said I know about *******. She said I'll be right home.
> 
> We have a big fight. I tell her to get out. She begs and pleads. I tell her to tell me everything. She agrees. She tells me everything I already knew. At that point we wind up having sex initiated by her. I'm so confused at this point I give in, but I'm wondering the entire time who shes thinking of while we have sex. It lasts the entire night. She does things she claimed she couldn't do. To shy etc...
> 
> ...


The sex is called "hysterical bonding" and it's common after a betrayal. 

Also there is likely trauma bonding going on on your part. 

It sadly sounds as if this women uses sex to calm men down or manipulate them based on the fact she is doing things she claimed to be too shy to do. 

It may also indicate she already had physical affairs. 

Get her to marriage counseling. The counselor may be able to get her to tell you the whole truth.


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## MysticMouse (Dec 17, 2012)

remorseful strayer said:


> The sex is called "hysterical bonding" and it's common after a betrayal.
> 
> Also there is likely trauma bonding going on on your part.


Already read some about hysterical bonding, and I agree. What is trauma bonding?


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## remorseful strayer (Nov 13, 2012)

MysticMouse said:


> Already read some about hysterical bonding, and I agree. What is trauma bonding?


It's similar to Stockholme syndrome. People often bond with their abuser as a way to survive, physically or mentally.

THIS IS FROM WIKIPEDIA "Stockholm syndrome can be seen as a form of traumatic bonding, which does not necessarily require a hostage scenario, but which describes "strong emotional ties that develop between two persons where one person intermittently harasses, beats, threatens, abuses, or intimidates the other."[4] One commonly used hypothesis to explain the effect of Stockholm Syndrome is based on Freudian theory. It suggests that the bonding is the individual's response to trauma in becoming a victim. Identifying with the aggressor is one way that the ego defends itself. When a victim believes the same values as the aggressor, they no longer become a threat. [5]"


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## MysticMouse (Dec 17, 2012)

remorseful strayer said:


> Get her to marriage counseling. The counselor may be able to get her to tell you the whole truth.


Thanks to medical bills I have no way to pay for a shrink.


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## remorseful strayer (Nov 13, 2012)

MysticMouse said:


> Thanks to medical bills I have no way to pay for a shrink.


Sorry. 

Some MCs will offer a sliding scale. 

Also, there are church groups that offer some type of counseling and that is often free.


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## MysticMouse (Dec 17, 2012)

remorseful strayer said:


> Sorry.
> 
> Some MCs will offer a sliding scale.
> 
> Also, there are church groups that offer some type of counseling and that is often free.


Thank you. I'll look into that.


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## HappyHubby (Aug 16, 2012)

they are 1000 miles away. That is good. Is there anyone nearby that she could have fooled around with??? Anyone at all?

If not then it could just be the fantasy online world affair. 

She should no longer be playing that game or be on any chat rooms. She's proven herself incapable of conducting herself appropriately online.


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## MysticMouse (Dec 17, 2012)

HappyHubby said:


> they are 1000 miles away. That is good. Is there anyone nearby that she could have fooled around with??? Anyone at all?
> 
> If not then it could just be the fantasy online world affair.
> 
> She should no longer be playing that game or be on any chat rooms. She's proven herself incapable of conducting herself appropriately online.


There is noone I know of near by.

She's not online at all now. I told her she's proven she can't be trusted with social media.


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## HappyHubby (Aug 16, 2012)

How did she justify her fantasy world? How did she apologize to you (other than the sex) ? What was her side of it?


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## MysticMouse (Dec 17, 2012)

HappyHubby said:


> How did she justify her fantasy world? How did she apologize to you (other than the sex) ? What was her side of it?


She said she was unhappy, and didn't intend to cheat.

She's been very appolgetic. She claims to have told me everything. She says she couldn't tell me more than I knew because I dug up everything. She has been very nice since then. Actually shes been an ideal wife. She cut off all contact with anyone online. She keeps in constant contact and always makes sure I know where she is. I believe her remorse is real. I just don't know if she really gave me the entire truth like she claims.


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## MysticMouse (Dec 17, 2012)

HappyHubby said:


> How did she justify her fantasy world? How did she apologize to you (other than the sex) ? What was her side of it?


Then again at one point she tried telling me she thought I didn't want her anymore... It was a crazy thing to say. I made my family my everything.


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## MysticMouse (Dec 17, 2012)

Also the dieting and makeup make me think she was looking to cheat. She says she just was trying to feel better because she was depressed.


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## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

MysticMouse said:


> Also the dieting and makeup make me think she was looking to cheat. She says she just was trying to feel better because she was depressed.


Dieting, weight lose, change in make-up, sexy clothes are all red flags of an affair - and not an on-line affair.

Where does she work? Any unexplained "working late" or "go for a drink with the folks after work" nights.

Your detective work may not be over.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

You may never know if you got the entire truth or not.

One way to find out is ask her to take a polygraph. If she's told you everything and is truly worried about your recovery, she will see it as a golden opportunity to prove to you once and for all she's in it for the long haul. If she's still hiding stuff, she'll balk. I know you say money is tight, but this could be the only way you will really know what's going and whether to waste any more time with her or not. You may not even have to actually get it, just tell her you've booked one for her and see what she says/does.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

TDSC60 said:


> Dieting, weight lose, change in make-up, sexy clothes are all red flags of an affair - and not an on-line affair.
> 
> Where does she work? Any unexplained "working late" or "go for a drink with the folks after work" nights.
> 
> Your detective work may not be over.


:iagree:


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## MysticMouse (Dec 17, 2012)

No missing time that I know of. She works in retail so she had lunch time opportunity etc. I know she sent the one guy all of the pictures of herself in the new clothes, and started sending the body pictures once she had slimmed down. If she cheated in the real world I don't have anything that shows it.

She's not acting distant like she was. Actually shes been really close, so I believe there is no affair going on right now. If there was a real world affair I have no way to track it down.


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## ItsGonnabeAlright (Nov 19, 2012)

You've had a rough life, But you NEED TO STOP having SEX with this VULTURE you are attached to. Think of all the diseases she could be putting on your private parts. Who really knows what she has done? TAKE A STAND for yourself, and stop it. Once she sees she cant shut you up with sex, once you confront her, then she's going to get nervous, yah the insults will start again, but you know what, who cares? You don't have a real relationship with her. She's a liar, a cheater, and who knows what else. So stop getting so weak when her legs open up. She is the enemy, treat her as one. What if one day, she tells you goodbye and all this time you were dizzy with sex, and she was planning her escape, after using and abusing you. She's not loving you.


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## MysticMouse (Dec 17, 2012)

I keep feeling I'm missing the whole truth. I'll try bluffing with a polygraph test, but she has been insistant that I know everything. I doubt I'm going to learn any more.


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## MysticMouse (Dec 17, 2012)

Told her i wanted a polygraph. She agreed to it no question. Said she wants it if it will help me forgive her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Collect every piece if clothing she wore and sent a pic to another man in and throw it out. These are clothes she picked out to sexually excite these other men, and not you. They are cheaters clothes and they need to get dumped.

Her learning bj skills online is very unlikely, so look for a guy at work she's been practicing on. A coworker, delivery guy etc.

Insiste upon the polygraph.


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## lionsguy22 (Dec 2, 2012)

Shaggy said:


> Collect every piece if clothing she wore and sent a pic to another man in and throw it out. These are clothes she picked out to sexually excite these other men, and not you. They are cheaters clothes and they need to get dumped.
> 
> Her learning bj skills online is very unlikely, so look for a guy at work she's been practicing on. A coworker, delivery guy etc.
> 
> Insiste upon the polygraph.


I think i watched a few movies with scenarios like that with a delivery guy.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

After all the warning you gave her, she was still continued to do it. I wouldn't be surprised if she had some local friends too. 

You stood by this woman through her cancer treatment and got ruined financially and this is how she repays you ?

Keylog the home computer if you haven't already. 

Maybe see if you can recover data from PC or her old mobile


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## MysticMouse (Dec 17, 2012)

Shaggy said:


> Collect every piece if clothing she wore and sent a pic to another man in and throw it out. These are clothes she picked out to sexually excite these other men, and not you. They are cheaters clothes and they need to get dumped.
> 
> Her learning bj skills online is very unlikely, so look for a guy at work she's been practicing on. A coworker, delivery guy etc.
> 
> Insiste upon the polygraph.


Those clothes were all thrown away. Also replaced the phone she was cheating with. The makeup is gone too. ANything that reminded me of the affair I had her throw away.

There is no affair going on now. If she had a physical affair there's no sign of it now, other than the newly learned skills.


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## MysticMouse (Dec 17, 2012)

warlock07 said:


> After all the warning you gave her, she was still continued to do it. I wouldn't be surprised if she had some local friends too.
> 
> You stood by this woman through her cancer treatment and got ruined financially and this is how she repays you ?
> 
> ...


Ran recovery on the old phone and sim. Installed key loggers on all electronics, including my own in case she used it while I was in the shower or something.


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## MysticMouse (Dec 17, 2012)

TDSC60 said:


> Dieting, weight lose, change in make-up, sexy clothes are all red flags of an affair - and not an on-line affair.
> 
> Where does she work? Any unexplained "working late" or "go for a drink with the folks after work" nights.
> 
> Your detective work may not be over.


I suspected she was looking for an affair, so real world would be the one to watch for. If there was one it was short lived and there's no trace of it now.


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## MysticMouse (Dec 17, 2012)

lionsguy22 said:


> I think i watched a few movies with scenarios like that with a delivery guy.


Seriously not helpful


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## MysticMouse (Dec 17, 2012)

At this point I'm resigned to the fact I will never know if I really do know everything. 

How do I stop dwelling on it? I need to regain my focus.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

Only time and consistent actions from her will heal you.


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## MysticMouse (Dec 17, 2012)

There has to be a way to heal without the aid of the person that did the damage.


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## MysticMouse (Dec 17, 2012)

I'm staying married to her. I'll be there because my kids deserve better. I'll be a good husband because I want to give us a real chance, but I won't claim I'm not tempted to pack. I cannot rely on her. She has proven that. If she ever cheats again, or is sectretly still cheating I will have to call it quits. I hope that is not the case.


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## OldWolf57 (Mar 20, 2012)

If not know the extent, just do the poly. Many never confess until you arrive in the parking lot.
They call your bluff. So set it up. I'm just not buying how she got so good at stuff from reading.

Also the poly REALLY should help you if she is truthful.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

losing weight and using make up and new clothes are all things online affairs can explain (no idea why another poster said it wasn't), especially since they exchanged pics and maybe even did video chat
as far as new sex techniques, as a BS I added a few new things post Dday (like finding her G-spot) and I wasn't cheating. So it could indeed be part of the hysterical bonding and the desire to please (in a way wanting to atone by doing that for you)

unless you found messages where the OM said he was coming to visit or she took a trip without you I would ease off the paranoia that it was physical for now. You've exhausted the means to uncover it at this point. She even said the "right" thing when you asked about the polygraph (no apprehension whatsoever and was eager to prove to you she is being honest now)

However, I think continuing vigilance now is still a very good idea. As others stated, get a keylogger installed, also, see if her phone is compatible with spyware. A VAR in the car or where you think she may try to make secret calls is a good idea.

The reason to continue the spying is to help you heal or to protect yourself from further affairs. If she continues to stay loyal then the repetitive nature of confirming it will help you learn to trust more. If she isn't already, then she also must be transparent and proactive about it. If she's stuck in traffic she calls right away so you don;t worry, if she gets a text and sees you get uneasy she hands over the phone or leaves it out for you to look later and never deletes anything, she also lets you know her passwords.


Do know that this will take long time for you to completely heal if you continue R (2-5 years). It's important that you wife understands this as well and shouldn't expect you to "get over it".

I highly recommend you both read, "Not Just Friends" by Shirley Glass and also, "His Needs Her Needs" by Harley



on a side note, while I do not believe that the fight you had over your mother is a valid excuse for cheating I do believe you need to have a better resolution on the issue. All marriages have problems like this and while they aren't excuses to cheat, you do need ways to better communicate over and resolve problems.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

btw, read the newbie link in my signature, lots of helpful info in there


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## MysticMouse (Dec 17, 2012)

What are the odds our marriage is just on its death bed


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

MysticMouse said:


> What are the odds our marriage is just on its death bed


a lot worse odds than it was a year ago for sure


BUT some marriages survive infidelity, mine did

you are going to fluctuate in high emotions for some time. It's akin to the grieving process when you lose a loved one, except it cycles over and over again. Healing from infidelity isn't a linear process. You will have some good days and then some bad days and then a good day and then 2 bad days, etc etc

over time the intensity wears out and while you may still experience "triggers", it stops becoming that permanent thought stuck in your head. 

The trick is work together. The WS has to be 100% remorseful, accept the entire blame for the affair, be transparent, stay in no contact and work their ass off at helping you heal and re-earn your trust. The BS has to refrain from being abusive, go through phases of tremendous pain and paranoia, and learn to forgive and start trusting more when it is warranted.

That's not an easy thing to do, but some couples are capable of it. Educate yourself, get those books I recommended and start spending quality alone time together- 10-15 hours a week (no TV) Allow breaks where you don't talk about it but always keep the door open to express feelings to one another.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

right now life feels overwhelming like this, eh?


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## MysticMouse (Dec 17, 2012)

Almostrecovered said:


> right now life feels overwhelming like this, eh?


LMAO. That's exactly it


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

well it gets better

R or D

it gets better, I promise


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## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

MysticMouse said:


> Those clothes were all thrown away. Also replaced the phone she was cheating with. The makeup is gone too. ANything that reminded me of the affair I had her throw away.
> 
> There is no affair going on now. If she had a physical affair there's no sign of it now, other than the newly learned skills.


It doesn't seem like she has removed traces, so you should be able to find her online educational pages in webbrowser history. Maybe she even remembers which sites she visited to learn these skills...


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## MysticMouse (Dec 17, 2012)

cpacan said:


> It doesn't seem like she has removed traces, so you should be able to find her online educational pages in webbrowser history. Maybe she even remembers which sites she visited to learn these skills...


I did find videos. 

She hasn't been deleting anything.


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## Kallan Pavithran (Jan 17, 2012)

Polygraph, do it. it may give you some peace.


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## remorseful strayer (Nov 13, 2012)

MysticMouse said:


> There has to be a way to heal without the aid of the person that did the damage.


That is the very very sad part about cheating, the betrayer has to become the healer to the injured spouse. 

Time is the only thing that will stop the obsessing, but the thoughts will likely never completely fade, nor the triggers. 

Accepting that notion will help you. It will be normal to trigger and to sometimes have mind movies.

The poly will help you, if she passes it.


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## MysticMouse (Dec 17, 2012)

Almostrecovered said:


> losing weight and using make up and new clothes are all things online affairs can explain (no idea why another poster said it wasn't), especially since they exchanged pics and maybe even did video chat
> as far as new sex techniques, as a BS I added a few new things post Dday (like finding her G-spot) and I wasn't cheating. So it could indeed be part of the hysterical bonding and the desire to please (in a way wanting to atone by doing that for you)
> 
> unless you found messages where the OM said he was coming to visit or she took a trip without you I would ease off the paranoia that it was physical for now. You've exhausted the means to uncover it at this point. She even said the "right" thing when you asked about the polygraph (no apprehension whatsoever and was eager to prove to you she is being honest now)
> ...


She started losing weight etc before the online affair began. I think she was looking but only says she was trying to feel good. I think she was looking for an affair so someone could make her feel good. She won't admit to that though, and I doubt she ever will. Maybe she doesn't even admit it to herself. All of the things she did to feel good are things that women do to get attention.

I had my mom move out as soon as I though reasonable. The problem with her I realise now is that she has Narcissistic personality disorder. Something I learned while trying to figure out why my wife was cheating. I read about NPD and thought they had written my mothers personality profile.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

well Mom sounds pretty awful in the way you describe her and to be honest I am surprised you aren't more screwed up when you take in your childhood history


two things you should do for yourself-

1) exercise, you mention having gained weight and while I am sure you are losing weight from the stress, it is best to start taking better care of yourself through exercise and healthy eating. Not only will you look better but you will feel better and handle stress easier during this time if you do.

2) get yourself IC, I know you mention finances being an issue right now but there has to be something out there that is either affordable or free. You have a boatload of stress in your life, the affairs, your son's health, your mom's inability to love you in the way a child should be loved, the abandoment and attempt of murder from your dad. I mean, sh!t, that's a ton to deal with and getting some help is in order


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## MysticMouse (Dec 17, 2012)

Almostrecovered said:


> well Mom sounds pretty awful in the way you describe her and to be honest I am surprised you aren't more screwed up when you take in your childhood history
> 
> 
> two things you should do for yourself-
> ...


I started P90X. Also removed all junk food from my diet. Except ice cream. I couldn't give up all of my joy, but I don't eat that much of it anyway.

I was screwed up actually. I was also really miserable. Then I had a thought. I hated my life I wanted someone elses life. I looked around me and I saw people trying to change their lives but they always wound up in the same place. I realized then that you have to become a another person if you want another persons life.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

I will just do this to everything AR has said

:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:


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## MysticMouse (Dec 17, 2012)

zenmaster said:


> Your wife is showing remorseful actions, which is more than I can say for my cheating STBXW.
> 
> The hard part is thinking about how she told the OM she didn't want to be with you. I was in the same situation, and at first I tried to write it off.
> 
> ...


She denies anything would have happened if these guys were closer but I know for sure she would have given evrything to one of them. She gave him everything else.

I do wonder what if she finds someone closer. Will she start up again like you said from a position of strength. If she does I'm done, but it is a concern. There is no question that I can't do this again. She swears there will never be another time, but I have doubts. Only time will tell.

I'm not just staying for the kids. I do love my wife. I want us back. I know it will never be the same. Having said that, if there were no kids I would not be as willing to take these kinds of risks, and doubt I could have tried to reconcile.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

You should get some marriage building books. Have a look at the link in my sig to my story - at the end of my big long post there are several book recommendations that my husband and I have found extremely helpful during our journey.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

MysticMouse said:


> She denies anything would have happened if these guys were closer but I know for sure she would have given evrything to one of them. She gave him everything else.



well you're probably both speaking the truth of a sort

EA's are very akin to addict behavior. The person engaged in an EA/online sex affair gets high amounts of dopamine from their activities. 

Imagine a heroin addict saying to themselves that yes I snort heroin but I would never use needles. Then 3 weeks later they find themselves crossing that line that they set for themselves. 

Your wife probably gave the sort sort of line that she would never cross (going PA) to herself and just never had the opportunity to cross that line because they were out of physical reach so you're right in that she most likely would have.

And she needs to recognize that fact and own it. She needs to recognize where her line of behavior was taking her. She needs to see the wake of damage she wrought and that until she was caught that she was likely going to destroy everything.


----------



## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

MysticMouse said:


> I do wonder what if she finds someone closer. Will she start up again like you said from a position of strength.


well of course that's possible

but you both need to work on minimizing that risk with strong and good boundaries, rebonding with each other in time spent one on one, communicating better, etc etc (get those books I told you about!!!)


----------



## MysticMouse (Dec 17, 2012)

She did so much damage to our marriage for such a little reward. It's crussing how much she was throwing away in such a short period of time.


----------



## MysticMouse (Dec 17, 2012)

Almostrecovered said:


> well of course that's possible
> 
> but you both need to work on minimizing that risk with strong and good boundaries, rebonding with each other in time spent one on one, communicating better, etc etc (get those books I told you about!!!)


We spend a lot of time together now. Mostly good, but it's bad when I'm angry with her for what she did. I'm trying to let it go.

I will look at those books


----------



## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

MysticMouse said:


> She did so much damage to our marriage for such a little reward. It's crussing how much she was throwing away in such a short period of time.


yup, been there

there is no logic in affairs, much of their behavior is so irrational during the affair that we call this behavior "the fog". Even crazier is even though the behavior is irrational, it is so predictable that we call the similarities of how the WS reacts an "affair script"


----------



## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

MysticMouse said:


> She did so much damage to our marriage for such a little reward. It's crussing how much she was throwing away in such a short period of time.


thats always how it is MM. So much wasted for nothing. Just hang in there. She seems to be doing some of the right things. And to echo AR- get into some couseling.


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## MysticMouse (Dec 17, 2012)

Funny thing I just remembered. Just before she started her dieting she was trying to convince me to get fixed. She stopped once she met the first guy online.


----------



## MysticMouse (Dec 17, 2012)

ok it's not funny but it makes me think she knew she was starting an affair right away, and not the slide she made it out to be.


----------



## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

well people involved in affairs suddenly lose interest in their spouse, so it's not uncommon for her to drop any issues


----------



## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

so many BS's post that their WS "checked out of the marriage"


----------



## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

Almostrecovered said:


> well people involved in affairs suddenly lose interest in their spouse, so it's not uncommon for her to drop any issues


THis is soo so true MM. Nothing unusual at all here. Im telling you I could have dyed my hair purple and Im not positive he'd have noticed during his A. He was most definately "checked out". Just the way an A works most times. Try not to sweat this part. I know of another TAMmer who wore a particular sweater alot during her H's A. This year, he said "is that new?"......so yeah, they dont pay attention to their spouse during an A.


----------



## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Almostrecovered said:


> so many BS's post that their WS "checked out of the marriage"


Yep.

What's p90X by the way?


----------



## MysticMouse (Dec 17, 2012)

Almostrecovered said:


> so many BS's post that their WS "checked out of the marriage"


She really did. She even started ignoring our kids.


----------



## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

Hope1964 said:


> Yep.
> 
> What's p90X by the way?



was really big in the exercise program field a few years ago and still has a big following

the idea is to "confuse" your muscles by doing a multitude of different exercises every day to promote faster and better growth


----------



## MysticMouse (Dec 17, 2012)

Hope1964 said:


> Yep.
> 
> What's p90X by the way?


Workout videos. A friend of mine bought them, and never used them so I borrowed them from him. Helps you build muscle and lose fat. It's not the best but free was in my price range.


----------



## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Oh, sounds cool  Good for you! Do you enjoy it?


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

MysticMouse said:


> She really did. She even started ignoring our kids.



yup

read around and you'll see the same thing over and over again


the most important thing to someone knee deep in their addictive affair is getting their next hit, all the rest of life be damned


other fun things the WS does-

exaggerates marital problems or rewrite marital history in order to justify the affair to themselves (and possibly others), often the BS gets vilified as well

reckless behavior and in PA's, often condoms are hardly ever used

BS and kids get ignored, jobs too, it gets in the way of theior fantasy



bottom line is that they live in a fantasy world where everything is great because their new relationship is free of responsibility and not subject to the realities that real love and relationships face


----------



## MysticMouse (Dec 17, 2012)

Almostrecovered said:


> yup
> 
> read around and you'll see the same thing over and over again
> 
> ...


Yeah. I saw the way she described me and our marriage. It was awful to read that. 

Ignoring the kids for the affair is one of the things I'm having a hard time with. It's like she wanted nothing we had together. Then again she sent pictures of our kids to the main guy and talked like she was such a great mother to the kids she was ignoring in the next room.


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## MysticMouse (Dec 17, 2012)

Hope1964 said:


> Oh, sounds cool  Good for you! Do you enjoy it?


I hate cardio and every other day of this thing is cardio. Maybe i'll double up the weight training lol


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

MysticMouse said:


> I hate cardio and every other day of this thing is cardio. Maybe i'll double up the weight training lol


I hate weight training. I'll do your cardio and you do my weight training.

Not that I am exercising at all right now. This time of year everything seems to go by the wayside.

I see you also have a weakness for ice cream. Ever make your own?


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

ice cream is also my nemesis

Damn those hippies Ben and Jerry


----------



## MysticMouse (Dec 17, 2012)

Hope1964 said:


> I hate weight training. I'll do your cardio and you do my weight training.
> 
> Not that I am exercising at all right now. This time of year everything seems to go by the wayside.
> 
> I see you also have a weakness for ice cream. Ever make your own?


Yes. I have an ice cream maker too. The one with the freezer bucket. There are flavors that are just too hard to find in stores and I love being able to make whatever I want. Also I started a family tradition of making ice cream every friday night. Each week we take turns picking a flavor and make it together. Another reason the wife was being foolish. She would have missed all of the delicious flavors of ice cream!:smthumbup:


----------



## MysticMouse (Dec 17, 2012)

Almostrecovered said:


> ice cream is also my nemesis
> 
> Damn those hippies Ben and Jerry


I save a bowl of ice cream then get one spoon full each day when I get home from work. It's my treat, but it's not enough to keep the pounds on.


----------



## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

I love it! Especially the family tradition part 

We have that same ice cream maker, now. My kids are all older, but when they were little we would use two tin cans, ice and salt, and roll them back and forth on the floor to make ice cream. We even got an ice cream maker ball thing to take camping. It didn't make very much though.

I don't even like store bought ice cream any more. Give me the real stuff. :smthumbup:


----------



## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

oh great now I have to go make a run to Wawa and gets some IC


THANKS ALOT HOPE!!


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Hey, I didn't bring it up.

And it's A LOT, not ALOT btw. You know better.


----------



## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

it's ALOT when you scream it


----------



## MysticMouse (Dec 17, 2012)

Hope1964 said:


> I love it! Especially the family tradition part
> 
> We have that same ice cream maker, now. My kids are all older, but when they were little we would use two tin cans, ice and salt, and roll them back and forth on the floor to make ice cream. We even got an ice cream maker ball thing to take camping. It didn't make very much though.
> 
> I don't even like store bought ice cream any more. Give me the real stuff. :smthumbup:


I wanted my kids to have something to miss about mom and dad when they got older and moved out. Maybe even something to pass on to their kids. Who doesn't like ice cream? 

Another way is to make the stuff them freeze it, then dump it into a food processor and puree the frozen ice cream to whip air into it.


----------



## MysticMouse (Dec 17, 2012)

Almostrecovered said:


> oh great now I have to go make a run to Wawa and gets some IC
> 
> 
> THANKS ALOT HOPE!!


I think you are blame shifting


----------



## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

MysticMouse said:


> Another way is to make the stuff them freeze it, then dump it into a food processor and puree the frozen ice cream to whip air into it.


but because the way the crystals form during the churn it doesn't have that same mouth feel


----------



## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

MysticMouse said:


> I think you are blame shifting


see? you're getting it!!


----------



## MysticMouse (Dec 17, 2012)

Almostrecovered said:


> but because the way the crystals form during the churn it doesn't have that same mouth feel


That's true. It just gives you a way when you can't do it right.

Crap. I think I just gave advice on cheating on ice cream.


----------



## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

still better than that frozen yogurt sh!t


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## MysticMouse (Dec 17, 2012)

Almostrecovered said:


> still better than that frozen yogurt sh!t


If you get rid of frozen yogurt what will I feed my dog?


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

transcripts of your wife's affair


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## MysticMouse (Dec 17, 2012)

Almostrecovered said:


> see? you're getting it!!


I could have gone my entire life not getting this.


----------



## MysticMouse (Dec 17, 2012)

Almostrecovered said:


> transcripts of your wife's affair


I love my dog and wouldn't feed her something so awful


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

MysticMouse said:


> I love my dog and wouldn't feed her something so awful



that's true, just reading it makes you vomit


----------



## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

FOCUS, people. The subject was ICE CREAM. And it must be made with raw cream, whole milk, cane sugar, farm eggs, whole vanilla beans, and raw cacao nibs.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

if you use eggs then it's frozen custard


----------



## MysticMouse (Dec 17, 2012)

Hope1964 said:


> FOCUS, people. The subject was ICE CREAM. And it must be made with raw cream, whole milk, cane sugar, farm eggs, whole vanilla beans, and raw cacao nibs.


Great. Now there's a puddle of drool on my keyboard.


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## MysticMouse (Dec 17, 2012)

Almostrecovered said:


> if you use eggs then it's frozen custard


French vanilla uses eggs.


----------



## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

well going by what Alton Brown says

colloquially we call frozen custard ice cream


----------



## Ovid (Oct 11, 2012)

I couldn't touch this thread. Too close to home. There are more people out there like you. It gets better with time. I find meaningless distraction helps...


----------



## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

Ovid said:


> I find meaningless distraction helps...


did somebody call me?


----------



## Ovid (Oct 11, 2012)

Almostrecovered said:


> did somebody call me?


:rofl:Sounds dirty... Maybe it's just my mind...:rofl:


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Almostrecovered said:


> well going by what Alton Brown says
> 
> colloquially we call frozen custard ice cream


My daughter made home made irish cream the other day. If I make ice cream out of that, what's it called??


----------



## Ovid (Oct 11, 2012)

Hope1964 said:


> My daughter made home made irish cream the other day. If I make ice cream out of that, what's it called??


Eat enough of it and no one will care


----------



## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

Hope1964 said:


> My daughter made home made irish cream the other day. If I make ice cream out of that, what's it called??



delicious


----------



## remorseful strayer (Nov 13, 2012)

MysticMouse said:


> Funny thing I just remembered. Just before she started her dieting she was trying to convince me to get fixed. She stopped once she met the first guy online.


This may have been suggested already, but your wife likely changed her mind about you being "fixed," in case she got pregnant from sex with another man. 

If she did, she could always claim it was yours, if didn't have a vasectomy.

Have you ever called her on that one. It needs to be addressed, the issue of why she changed her mind.


----------



## MysticMouse (Dec 17, 2012)

zenmaster said:


> My wife did this too, PLUS she also stopped talking to me about getting fixed. It's very eerie the similarities between our stories!
> 
> The only difference SEEMS to be that your wife stopped at an EA. But do not believe that she wouldn't have escallated to a PA if she could have. My STBXW's PA started as an EA as well.


There's no doubt in my mind that she would have givin him everything if he was closer.


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## MysticMouse (Dec 17, 2012)

zenmaster said:


> Wow have you been in my home the last 6 months? My STBXW had everyone of these checklist behaviors:
> 
> - exaggerates marital problems
> - rewrite marital history
> ...


Mine too. I think they all have meetings together.


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## MysticMouse (Dec 17, 2012)

remorseful strayer said:


> This may have been suggested already, but your wife likely changed her mind about you being "fixed," in case she got pregnant from sex with another man.
> 
> If she did, she could always claim it was yours, if didn't have a vasectomy.
> 
> Have you ever called her on that one. It needs to be addressed, the issue of why she changed her mind.


I have nothing that shows there was a physical affair. I think there would have been if she had the chance though.


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## MysticMouse (Dec 17, 2012)

Come to think of it.

She was making plans for a vacation even though we are broke as hell, and she talked about moving some place new and suggested his state might be a nice place to live.

Just adds certainty to my mind that she would have done more if things continued on as they did.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

You should go back through this thread and write down everything you've learned, then mull it over for a while. Figure out what you want to do. Because unless you get what you need from her, it isn't going to work. I know you want to stay with her, but really, really think hard on that.


----------



## MysticMouse (Dec 17, 2012)

Hope1964 said:


> You should go back through this thread and write down everything you've learned, then mull it over for a while. Figure out what you want to do. Because unless you get what you need from her, it isn't going to work. I know you want to stay with her, but really, really think hard on that.


Believe me. I'm going through it.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

so it's a new day, how are things?


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## MysticMouse (Dec 17, 2012)

Almostrecovered said:


> so it's a new day, how are things?


Much better, thank you.

I was lurking these forums for a bit. Just reading, taking it all in. For some reason I suddenly felt like I did the day after Dday. I needed to write it all down somewhere. 

Everyone here was very helpful. It helped me get through the rough spot.

Special thanks to you and Hope. Talking ice cream was a nice distraction.


----------



## MysticMouse (Dec 17, 2012)

In retrospect maybe I put too much in my first post.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

Nah, it's a support board. It's good to let it pour out in front of people who completely understand what you're going through. It's my pleasure to help in whatever way I can. Helping others work through infidelity helps me too.


----------



## MysticMouse (Dec 17, 2012)

Almostrecovered said:


> Nah, it's a support board. It's good to let it pour out in front of people who completely understand what you're going through. It's my pleasure to help in whatever way I can. Helping others work through infidelity helps me too.


In that case I'm glad I could help.


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## MysticMouse (Dec 17, 2012)

A bit of insanity on my part. 

I never saw pictures of the other man until I located him on facebook. I know he sent them. It just shows how much she managed to get rid of before I caught her.

I want those pictures. I want to put them on cheaterville, and send them to his family. I want to drive to his house and hang them on flyers around his neighborhood. I want him to feel some of the humiliation I felt when I found out about this. I know the affair was her fault, but he doesn't get to use my wife for masturbation material and walk away scott free.

I reopened her old email account and started emailing him pretending to be her sneaking behind my back. It's tearing me up inside but I have to do it. I just hope I don't find out things were worse than I already know.


----------



## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

MysticMouse said:


> A bit of insanity on my part.
> 
> I never saw pictures of the other man until I located him on facebook. I know he sent them. It just shows how much she managed to get rid of before I caught her.
> 
> ...


do be careful with the email plan, it may prompt him to try and contact her through other means

you're in a better spot that I was, I wanted to kidnap OM, take him to the woods where I had a ditch dug and then flay his skin while he was still alive until burying him

it's understandable to want to enact revenge, the best way is if he was married to tell his wife (she deserves to know anyways)


----------



## MysticMouse (Dec 17, 2012)

Almostrecovered said:


> do be careful with the email plan, it may prompt him to try and contact her through other means
> 
> you're in a better spot that I was, I wanted to kidnap OM, take him to the woods where I had a ditch dug and then flay his skin while he was still alive until burying him
> 
> it's understandable to want to enact revenge, the best way is if he was married to tell his wife (she deserves to know anyways)


I would love to kill him slowly, but I won't do any good for my kids from prison.

I took away all of his means of contacting her. She has a new email phone etc. Everything that was is gone. Maybe he would find a way to track her down, but I doubt it. 

He doesn't have a wife. His marriage failed after a year. Gee I wonder why.


----------



## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

MysticMouse said:


> I would love to kill him slowly, but I won't do any good for my kids from prison.
> 
> I took away all of his means of contacting her. She has a new email phone etc. Everything that was is gone. Maybe he would find a way to track her down, but I doubt it.
> 
> He doesn't have a wife. His marriage failed after a year. Gee I wonder why.


that's exactly the right attitude, be clear in that actual violence isn't the answer as desirable as it may seem

well, I guess you can give it a shot with the email ruse, if it works, it works. Hopefully what she has told you can be confirmed, but be forewarned that what you will see from him may sicken and upset you. This would be the ultimate trigger.


----------



## MysticMouse (Dec 17, 2012)

Already sickened. My insides are jello. I've never let pain stop me from anything. I'm not going to let him get past this without a scratch.


----------



## MysticMouse (Dec 17, 2012)

She was a game to him. I read it in the way he talks. I'm sure she wasn't the first. He needs to learn this isn't a game.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

so the plan is to find out if anything else happened/said that you are not aware of, get pictures and post them on cheaterville?


----------



## DarkHoly (Dec 18, 2012)

My God man. I'm so sorry. 

Do you know where he works?


----------



## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

DarkHoly said:


> Do you know where he works?


this is a good point

You could also send an email to his HR dept or boss stating that you have reason to believe that he used company resources and time to engage in an illicit affair with your wife


----------



## MysticMouse (Dec 17, 2012)

Almostrecovered said:


> so the plan is to find out if anything else happened/said that you are not aware of, get pictures and post them on cheaterville?


Yes


----------



## MysticMouse (Dec 17, 2012)

DarkHoly said:


> My God man. I'm so sorry.
> 
> Do you know where he works?


He's unemployed.


----------



## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

MysticMouse said:


> Yes



good luck


----------



## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

MysticMouse said:


> He's unemployed.


yet another OM that is a sack of worthless sh!t, where do they come from?!!


----------



## MysticMouse (Dec 17, 2012)

Almostrecovered said:


> good luck


Thank you

He helped make this sh!t sandwich. Now he needs to take a bite.


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## MysticMouse (Dec 17, 2012)

Almostrecovered said:


> yet another OM that is a sack of worthless sh!t, where do they come from?!!


What I don't get is how she could think this piece of crap was worth her time let alone destroying our marriage for.


----------



## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

MysticMouse said:


> What I don't get is how she could think this piece of crap was worth her time let alone destroying our marriage for.


talk to Calvin, his OM was even worse


there are quite a bit of cases on this board where the OM/OW was a jump down in status, attraction, income, etc etc

personally, my OM was an evil doppleganger


----------



## MysticMouse (Dec 17, 2012)

This guy is so far down the food chain it's not funny. What concerns me is he's my polar opposite. Like she wanted someone nothing like me.


----------



## Summer4744 (Oct 15, 2012)

Mystic, why waste your time with this guy? This guy didn't even know you?

Aren't you just transferring your anger for your wife to this guy because it is easy and you don't want to confront the main issue at hand?


----------



## MysticMouse (Dec 17, 2012)

Summer4744 said:


> Mystic, why waste your time with this guy? This guy didn't even know you?
> 
> Aren't you just transferring your anger for your wife to this guy because it is easy and you don't want to confront the main issue at hand?


No. I've dealt with my wife, and still am dealing with her.

My issue with him is he knew she was married. He was willingly going along, and encouraged it. I don't fault him in that my wife had the choice, and failed. I do fault him in that he was a willing accomplice and in fact encouraged her.


----------



## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

has he answered yet?


----------



## MysticMouse (Dec 17, 2012)

Almostrecovered said:


> has he answered yet?


Yes, but it's like pulling my own guts out to talk to him. Takes me awhile to recover whenever I reply. I'm giving it a rest for a day or two. 

Besides. Building suspense can't hurt any.


----------



## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

so how are you going to get to the truth without arousing suspicion?


----------



## MysticMouse (Dec 17, 2012)

Almostrecovered said:


> so how are you going to get to the truth without arousing suspicion?


I've got a story line planned out. I don't want to say too much at this point. For all I know he reads this site for pointers.


----------



## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

two options IF you want to talk it over or want help with it (if you don't no biggie)- start a thread in the private section or start a thread in the having a successful R group (only allowed in by invite by me)


----------



## MysticMouse (Dec 17, 2012)

Almostrecovered said:


> two options IF you want to talk it over or want help with it (if you don't no biggie)- start a thread in the private section or start a thread in the having a successful R group (only allowed in by invite by me)


cool thanks


----------



## MysticMouse (Dec 17, 2012)

posted in having a successful R


----------



## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

kewl, hope is also in the group and a smart guy named LordMayhem who may be able to help as well


----------



## MysticMouse (Dec 17, 2012)

Nice.


----------



## MysticMouse (Dec 17, 2012)

Almostrecovered said:


> has he answered yet?


Yes. He was very eager to talk.


----------



## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

I like the idea of posting flyers around where he lives. Humiliate him in front of he neighbors. Do it. Make sure to include a link to his cheaterville bio!


----------



## MysticMouse (Dec 17, 2012)

An interesting turn of events.

It's become clear from my brief interations with the POSOM that he did not save any of their emails or texts. I'm sure I could get pictures from him but I have no will to, as I think the only way that would happen envolves sexting. 

I was emailing him from an app on my cell phone. I was sick over the weekend with a fever. While I was getting some much needed Nyquil induced sleep my wife went through my phone. (Interesting how she cheated but now she's going through my phone.) She found the emails between "her" and the POSOM.

When I woke up she asked if she had a secret email account she didn't know about. I said yes. At this point I figured out that she went through my phone. She then asked me if I was planning on leaving her due to the content of the emails. I replied again with the truth but it was something I don't think she realized. I told her I wanted to sound like her so I only wrote the things she wrote to him previously. 

There was a brief moment of disbelief, then I saw it sink in. Everything I wrote that had her so worried and upset. Everything she read that she thought was so horrible. It was all her own words.


----------



## MysticMouse (Dec 17, 2012)

A second side effect of the intel gathering.

I don't know if I pushed myself too far, or if seeing what an absolute loser dbag POSOM is cleared my head, but I've become indifferent, and it's allowed me to start acting like my old self. I'm a happey person again. I'm working right and concentrating on my work like I need to. I played with my kids all day yesterday. I'm not sad about my loss anymore. It was her loss. She'll never have me back the way she had me before, and I don't need her. If she walks out tomorrow I'll replace her with better. 

She changed too. In a subtle way. I don't know exactly what's going on inside her head, but it's a good change. After Dday she was trying, but almost trying too hard. That feeling of trying too hard is gone now. She feels more sincere. Not like she's just doing damage control.


----------



## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

the good- she didn't do a freak out upon discovering your plan to extract info from OM. She isn't running into defense mode trying to cover herself. This is a good sign that most of what she told you is probably true AND she is willing to allow you to prove it.


my only questions are why she is snooping on your phone when you aren't the cheater and does she know about TAM?

btw- you get the books yet?


----------



## MysticMouse (Dec 17, 2012)

Didn't order the books yet.

She knows about TAM but not my account on TAM. Just that I read it. She says she doesn't like it because it's a reminder to her of what she did.

I think there's a few reasons why she's checking up on me.

She's always been a little jealous, but ever since dday it's been worse. I think she knows how badly she damaged us and it has her worried. 

I made a bunch of personal changes after dday. I lost 40 lbs as a result of the experience, but I figured I'd use it, so I started working out. I started cutting my hair a new way. Grew a goatee. Bought some new clothes too. Basically I did all of the things she did when she started cheating except I haven't done any cheating. She did notice it and even pointed out that's what she did. The funny thing is I've actually reverted. These are all things I used to do, but stopped. I started again because I wanted to feel more like my old self. 

About a week ago the office "slvt" sent me a friendly text. I ignored it, but my wife sure noticed it.


----------



## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Holy frack, she is checking YOUR phone?!?! Wow, that really pisses me off!!! You don't sound mad about it though. Why not?

What books are you going to order?

My daughter is making ice cream for dinner tomorrow. What flavour should she do?


----------



## Summer4744 (Oct 15, 2012)

Mystic. Have you or your wife brought up how you cared for her when she had cancer?

How you could have left her right then but didn't?

How does this affect her? She forgot? She doesn't care?


----------



## MysticMouse (Dec 17, 2012)

Hope1964 said:


> Holy frack, she is checking YOUR phone?!?! Wow, that really pisses me off!!! You don't sound mad about it though. Why not?
> 
> What books are you going to order?
> 
> My daughter is making ice cream for dinner tomorrow. What flavour should she do?


Doesn't bother me she checked my phone. It tells me that she knows she screwed up bad and is worried about what I may do. It also tells me that she knows I can move on if I want to. Also I feel good about the fact she has to acknowlege how she held her phone so close and hid the screen and I don't.

I'm not sure what book to start with. I was thinking not just friends. I'd like to do them one at a time.


There are several flavors of blue moon but the one in northern Michigan is the best.

2 cups milk
1 cup sugar
1 tablespoon vanilla extract
1 tablespoon vanilla pudding mix
1/4 teaspoon raspberry extract
1/4 teaspoon lemon extract
1/8 teaspoon blue food coloring

Mix everything in the milk until its fully disolved then dump in the ice cream maker.

After getting it all in the running in the ice cream maker add 
1 cup of heavy cream.

Tastes like nothing else with a nice fruit loop aftertaste.


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## Hope Springs Eternal (Oct 6, 2012)

Hope1964 said:


> Holy frack, she is checking YOUR phone?!?! Wow, that really pisses me off!!! You don't sound mad about it though. Why not?
> 
> What books are you going to order?
> 
> My daughter is making ice cream for dinner tomorrow. What flavour should she do?


Something that involves dark chocolate!


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## MysticMouse (Dec 17, 2012)

Summer4744 said:


> Mystic. Have you or your wife brought up how you cared for her when she had cancer?
> 
> How you could have left her right then but didn't?
> 
> How does this affect her? She forgot? She doesn't care?


When she told me she cheated because she was unhappy I told her I was unhappy when she had cancer, and that I'm unhappy right now. I also said that I know from her cheating that if I was the one with cancer she would not be here right now, which she said was untrue. I think it is true.

She acknologed that it shows how badly she screwed up, but beyond that there was no discussion of it.


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## MysticMouse (Dec 17, 2012)

Hope Springs Eternal said:


> Something that involves dark chocolate!


Could always make chocolate and add dark chocolate chips but I think Hope was looking for something more unusual.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

OMG that recipe sounds good but my daughter will NEVER make it - she is a total food purist and only uses 'natural' ingredients 

Not Just friends is an excellent book, and I firmly believe that every person getting married should read it, and then re read it at 5 year intervals.


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## Hope Springs Eternal (Oct 6, 2012)

Hope1964 said:


> OMG that recipe sounds good but my daughter will NEVER make it - she is a total food purist and only uses 'natural' ingredients
> 
> Not Just friends is an excellent book, and I firmly believe that every person getting married should read it, and then re read it at 5 year intervals.


"NOT Just Friends" is an excellent book. Shirley Glass is an authority on infidelity, and her book really sets the standard.

I picked up a copy when my cheating wife ended her affair, and she grabbed it and read the whole thing, before I had the chance to read it. It gave her valuable perspective, and she even mentioned that it had great stuff for affair prevention in it. I'm still working my way through the Kindle version, but what I've read is right on target.

I would never mix light and dark chocolates. I was thinking more about an orange or rasperry base with dark chocolate added. Like those chocolate "oranges" you can buy.


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## MysticMouse (Dec 17, 2012)

Hope1964 said:


> OMG that recipe sounds good but my daughter will NEVER make it - she is a total food purist and only uses 'natural' ingredients
> 
> Not Just friends is an excellent book, and I firmly believe that every person getting married should read it, and then re read it at 5 year intervals.


In that case:
1 cup of grape juice
1 cup of sugar
1 tablespoon vanilla extract. Can be the all natrual real vanilla
mix it all together

add in two cups of heavy cream and dump in the ice cream maker.


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## MysticMouse (Dec 17, 2012)

Hope Springs Eternal said:


> "NOT Just Friends" is an excellent book. Shirley Glass is an authority on infidelity, and her book really sets the standard.
> 
> I picked up a copy when my cheating wife ended her affair, and she grabbed it and read the whole thing, before I had the chance to read it. It gave her valuable perspective, and she even mentioned that it had great stuff for affair prevention in it. I'm still working my way through the Kindle version, but what I've read is right on target.
> 
> I would never mix light and dark chocolates. I was thinking more about an orange or rasperry base with dark chocolate added. Like those chocolate "oranges" you can buy.


Just add more cocoa powder to a chocolate icecream mix to make it dark chocolate, so it's not mixing 

I'm thinking more and more not just friends will be the first book.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Grape juice eh?? I'm going to ask her if she's ever tried that. And she definitely uses the real vanilla extract - we actually make it ourselves. Easiest thing in the world!

We were at the grocery store yesterday and my daughter told me she HATES those chocolate orange things. Raspberry sounds good though. Or, what about cranberry?? 

OR - I just remembered I have a jar of drunken saskatoons in my fridge, from making saskatoon liqueur. I wonder what they'd taste like in ice cream??

My husband got a lot out of Not Just Friends too. I had to kind of push him to read it, but once he did he commented about how easy it was to read, unlike some of the other reading material we've tried to work through.


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## MysticMouse (Dec 17, 2012)

Hope1964 said:


> Grape juice eh?? I'm going to ask her if she's ever tried that. And she definitely uses the real vanilla extract - we actually make it ourselves. Easiest thing in the world!
> 
> We were at the grocery store yesterday and my daughter told me she HATES those chocolate orange things. Raspberry sounds good though. Or, what about cranberry??
> 
> ...


I've only tried the grape juice, so I can only guess how the others would turn out. 

I need to learn how to make vanilla extract. 

After not just friends what's the best book to follow?


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Are you going to have her read it as well? Also, there's a link in my sig that I think is required reading for all WS's. She should read that too. Maybe copy and print it for her or something.

BTW you can find many of the books for free online.

What other books have been recommended? Do you want marriage building books or healing from infidelity books or manning up books?


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## MysticMouse (Dec 17, 2012)

Hope1964 said:


> Are you going to have her read it as well? Also, there's a link in my sig that I think is required reading for all WS's. She should read that too. Maybe copy and print it for her or something.
> 
> BTW you can find many of the books for free online.
> 
> What other books have been recommended? Do you want marriage building books or healing from infidelity books or manning up books?


She will be reading them as well. I'm just trying to plan a course of reading. I'd like her to understand where and how far she went wrong, but I'd also like to have a stronger marriage.

Marriage building would be good.

Do I need help manning up? I thought manning up was my strong suit.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

I don't know - that seems to be something that people here recommend to almost every guy who comes here. I am not that familiar with it myself, although I did find a free copy of No More Mr Nice Guy to read, just for my own info. Haven't started yet tho.

Here's a C&P of another post I have up. Gottman is excellent and probably saved our marriage - it was recommended by the first counselor we saw when I decided to try R. We're currently on chapter 5 (IIRC) of the Love Busters ones.

The last one is full of useful info for anyone who's been cheated on, not just spouses of sex addicts.

*Some books that I like to recommend to others*

For General Marriage Help (not only for couples going through infidelity: 

The Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work
"John Gottman has revolutionized the study of marriage by using rigorous scientific procedures to observe the habits of married couples in unprecedented detail over many years. Here is the culmination of his life''s work: the seven principles that guide couples on the path toward a harmonious and long-lasting relationship. Packed with practical questionnaires and exercises, The Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work is the definitive guide for anyone who wants their relationship to attain its highest potential"

The Five Love Languages 
"Of the countless ways we can show love to one another, five key categories, or five love languages, proved to be universal and comprehensive—everyone has a love language, and we all identify primarily with one of the five love languages: Words of Affirmation, Quality Time, Receiving Gifts, Acts of Service, and Physical Touch.......The 5 Love Languages® has helped countless couples identify practical and powerful ways to express love, simply by using the appropriate love language. Many husbands and wives who had spent years struggling through marriages they thought were loveless discovered one or both spouses had long been showing love through messages that weren’t getting through. By recognizing their different love languages, they witnessed the rebirth of the love they thought had been gone for good."

Love Busters, His Needs Her Needs and the companion workbook 5 Steps to Romantic Love
"Dr. Harley helps couples understand why their best intentions are not enough to prevent marital incompatibility. in Love Busters, he helps couples avoid losing romantic love by recognizing and overcoming thoughtless and selfish habits. Couples must do more than want to meet each other's needs--they must actually meet them! The right needs are so strong that when they're not met in marriage, people are tempted to go outside marriage to satisfy them. But aside of the risk of affair, important emotional needs should be met for the sake of care itself. Marriage is a very special relationship. Dr. Harley describes the ten emotional needs of men and women. He helps you identify which are the most important to you and your spouse, helps you communicate them to each other, and helps you learn to meet them."

About Infidelity

Not Just Friends
"NOT "Just Friends" is the first book to shatter popular assumptions about infidelity, including: a happy marriage is insurance against infidelity; the betrayed partner must have ignored obvious clues; and the unfaithful partner was compensating for emotional or sexual deprivation in the marriage......Dr. Glass's scientific approach to infidelity is unique in its treatment of the betrayed partner's shock as a trauma. She helps couples cope with post-traumatic reactions and recover from the emotional roller coaster that follows deception, suspiciousness, and the shock of revelation."

Transcending Post-Infidelity Stress Disorder
"The phrase "broken heart" belies the real trauma behind the all-too-common occurrence of infidelity. Psychologist Dennis Ortman likens the psychological aftermath of sexual betrayal to post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) in its origin and symptoms, including anxiety, irritability, rage, emotional numbing, and flashbacks. Using PTSD treatment as a model, Dr. Ortman will show you, step by step, how to: 
• work through conflicting emotions
• Understand yourself and your partner
• Make important life decisions 
Dr. Ortman sees recovery as a spiritual journey and draws on the wisdom of diverse faiths, from Christianity to Buddhism. He also offers exercises to deepen recovery, such as guided meditations and journaling, and explores heart-wrenchingly familiar case studies of couples struggling with monogamy. By the end of this book, you will have completed the six stages of healing and emerged with a whole heart, a full spirit, and the freedom to love again."

For cybersex/sex addiction

In the Shadows of the Net
"As Internet usage has exploded in recent years, so has the prevalence of compulsive online sexual behavior--a problem first addressed five years ago by Patrick Carnes and coauthors of the breakthrough book, In The Shadows of the Net. Updated with the latest information, trends, and developments, the second edition equips readers with specific strategies for recognizing and changing compulsive sexual behaviors. Personal stories reveal how desperate life can become for online sex addicts--divorce, career loss, and financial ruin are common outcomes. More importantly the authors set forth a path for breaking free from compulsive online sexual behavior and sustaining lifelong recovery."

Your Sexually Addicted Spouse
"Sexual addictions and compulsive sexual behavior are growing societal problems, with as many as three to six percent of the world population affected. Your Sexually Addicted Partner shatters the stigma and shame that millions of men and women carry when their partners are sexually addicted. They receive little empathy for their pain, which means they suffer alone, often shocked and isolated by the trauma. Barbara Steffens' groundbreaking new research shows that partners are not codependents but post-traumatic stress victims, while Marsha Means' personal experience provides insights, strategies, and critical steps to recognize, deal with, and heal partners of sexually addicted relationships. Firsthand accounts and stories reveal the impact of this addiction on survivors' lives."[/QUOTE]


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## MysticMouse (Dec 17, 2012)

Thank you for the list. It's a lot to go over.


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## 3putt (Dec 3, 2012)

The #1 book I would get is Surviving an Affair

Surviving an Affair: Willard F. Jr. Harley, Jennifer Harley Chalmers: 9780800717582: Amazon.com: Books

Hell, they're all good, but SAA (I believe) is the best for what you are dealing with.

My #2 would be Not Just Friends.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Surviving an affair is one I am not familiar with.

OK I am done work till Thursday so I will wish you a very Merry Christmas since I don't usually go on TAM much from home!! Take care of YOU and know that every day you feel better


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## MysticMouse (Dec 17, 2012)

Hope1964 said:


> Surviving an affair is one I am not familiar with.
> 
> OK I am done work till Thursday so I will wish you a very Merry Christmas since I don't usually go on TAM much from home!! Take care of YOU and know that every day you feel better


Have a great Christmas.


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## MysticMouse (Dec 17, 2012)

3putt said:


> The #1 book I would get is Surviving an Affair
> 
> Surviving an Affair: Willard F. Jr. Harley, Jennifer Harley Chalmers: 9780800717582: Amazon.com: Books
> 
> ...


I will seriously consider this book for the first or second.


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## cantthinkstraight (May 6, 2012)

Mystic, I suggest you read my thread (see sig) when you have time. A LOT of similarities to our stories.

And you can't fix *batsh!t crazy*, nor should you...


Have a great xmas and keep your chin up!


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## MysticMouse (Dec 17, 2012)

cantthinkstraight said:


> Mystic, I suggest you read my thread (see sig) when you have time. A LOT of similarities to our stories.
> 
> And you can't fix *batsh!t crazy*, nor should you...
> 
> ...


I just read yours. I get a lot of the she didn't know why she did it, and feels like she was another person out of her about the entire thing.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

The first book you and every other man should read before their first date is Marrid Man Sex Life. If you don't read this there is no point to reading the others


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## MysticMouse (Dec 17, 2012)

I've been getting a lot of talk from my wife "I don't remember" or "It's all a blur."

Last night I asked for a timeline again, but this time I said "Either it was no big deal to you and you really don't remember or it was a big deal and you just don't want to talk about these things because it makes you uncomfortable. I believe it was a big deal to you, so you do remember. I need to know because there are too many missing pieces that just don't make sense. I can't move past this unless I know what I'm moving past."

After that I got a full time line from her, as well as some other questions answered.

When did she know she had crossed the line. She said she knew from the very beginning that she was wrong, and that she was going to far. She told me about all of the lies she told herself. How she rationalized everything.

She had been talking to the guy online for two weeks. It was friendlt normal conversation. They then exchanged numbers. They texted for a couple of days. He asked if she wanted his picture she said yes. He sent a nude picture. She told him that was what she wanted. He apologized for making her uncomfortable. A couple more days passed and he told her that he had feelings for her. The affair went full swing from there. During this time I had noticed she was detaching from me and was busy trying to make her happy. Really makes me feel like a moron to think about it.

While this was going on she was talking to OM2 via text in the same kind of friendly relationship.

After about a month OM1 was making a lot of advances and offered to send her a plane ticket for her to come out to him. I think he was pushing too hard and made her a little uncomfortable. At the same time OM2 began making his move and was trying to turn their friendship into a full affair. She said she was starting to think of OM1 as a loser. I think he gave off the scent of desperation by pushing so hard. That coupled with a second guy making advances so she was starting to detach from the first. She said she wasn't interested in OM2, but I suspect if things had continued she would have transitioned to OM2. Dday was about three days into this.


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## MysticMouse (Dec 17, 2012)

I can't believe it took so long to get this. Like everything about the affair. Such a high cost for so little.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

I cant remember if you have read the MMSL book and what you thought of it.


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## MysticMouse (Dec 17, 2012)

chapparal said:


> I cant remember if you have read the MMSL book and what you thought of it.


Not yet. It'll probably get read eventually. 

I did gain weight. I've already lost most of it. Besides that I've met all of the alpha male traights. I don't go for Sh!t tests. Even when I gained weight I was in otherwise good shape. I have started to dress better. Getting attention from other women has actually been more of a problem simply because I do get a lot and my wife is so jealous. My income goes up every year. My work actually created a position for me last year because it was the only way they could promote me. I'm now the head of a department they created with me in mind. A lot of what he says just simply didn't apply until I read the post he had regarding loyalty tests. I think my mother staying with us after their fight could easily be seen as failing a loyalty test. It was also the thing that gave my wife motivation to start looking. I can also see where I gave her too much. I did put my family (wife included) first in every aspect. I've adjusted my priorities after the affair. 

I'm sure I'd get something from his book, but I don't think it's the answer I'm looking for.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

MysticMouse said:


> Not yet. It'll probably get read eventually.
> 
> I did gain weight. I've already lost most of it. Besides that I've met all of the alpha male traights. I don't go for Sh!t tests. Even when I gained weight I was in otherwise good shape. I have started to dress better. Getting attention from other women has actually been more of a problem simply because I do get a lot and my wife is so jealous. My income goes up every year. My work actually created a position for me last year because it was the only way they could promote me. I'm now the head of a department they created with me in mind. A lot of what he says just simply didn't apply until I read the post he had regarding loyalty tests. I think my mother staying with us after their fight could easily be seen as failing a loyalty test. It was also the thing that gave my wife motivation to start looking. I can also see where I gave her too much. I did put my family (wife included) first in every aspect. I've adjusted my priorities after the affair.
> 
> I'm sure I'd get something from his book, but I don't think it's the answer I'm looking for.


The important part of the book is its explanation of a woman's attraction to you and why she would want to keep you for herself. There is MAP plan that will help down the road even if this situation goes awry.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

BTW, do not underestimate how much being overweight can turn some people off.


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## MysticMouse (Dec 17, 2012)

chapparal said:


> BTW, do not underestimate how much being overweight can turn some people off.


That weight isn't coming back. On Dday I took a look at a few things. One was the fact that I had gained weight. I decided it was going away for good. I was never going to feel like I did that day again. I'm packing on muscle as fast as I can now.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

personally I feel your spouse should love you for who you are and not by what you try to project but that's me


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

I'm glad you've given up on contacting OM via covert means, it seemed like a dead end and it was only triggering you into hell


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## MysticMouse (Dec 17, 2012)

It was a total dead end. He was only gaming her. He probably doesn't even remember half of the conversations he had with her.


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## MovingAhead (Dec 27, 2012)

Brother,

I was just reading your post. I saw about the third post when you talked about letting you mother move in with you. When your mom and wife had a fight and you mediated it fairly (According to Men's Logic) you really screwed up in your wife's eyes.

You see when you get married, you leave your parents and live with your wife. I'm religious so your priorities are: 1. Get right with God, 2 Get right with your wife... etc... Your wife is your top priority. She is the family you chose. Your mom is the family you were born into. Your house is yours and your wife's. It is not your mother's house. She doesn't belong there. You were kind enough to let her stay with you, but out of nice Men's logic you modified the pecking order. Your wife was queen of the house, and you made her a commoner. You basically told her she doesn't matter to you and you stopped treating her like the queen she is and started treating her like a common companion, you know a dog. You did this all unintentionally but to her you really screwed up. You treated her like she didn't matter anymore. That is what you did from Woman's logic. Men and Women do NOT think the same way. You owe her a huge apology for what you did honestly. I know you didn't mean to, but you took her from her position in the house as queen just a companion. To you, you were probably trying to be fair and help everyone out and just get along. Your mom is living in your wife's house and your wife has EVERY right to be higher in the pecking order. You married her, but you are not treating her as an equal in the marriage. If your wife says your mom needs to go, she needs to go. You might be able to delay it a little but you need to choose your wife's desires over your mothers. That is how marriages should work. If you don't think so, you should not be married to this woman.

I did not understand how women interpret things well until I was going through my own divorce. So I am getting engaged now to my girlfriend. We go to a jewelry store. She picks out a ring and a diamond. Just the diamond is $60,000. I did not tell her I couldn't afford it. If I would have said I could not afford it, all she would have heard was 'I'm not worth it'. So a little painfully, I get my credit in and we see how much I can afford and I let her figure out what she wants with the money I CAN spend. Women do not follow Men's logic. You have to understand that and you have to look at things from her point of view, but you also need to understand what your wife's role in your life and marriage is supposed to be. You don't. Kick your mom out if you want your marriage to work or at a bare minimum. Tell your mother in front of your wife that this is your wife's house and what she says goes so if you'd like to stay here you do what your wife says. It's not your house mom. So either you follow the rules in the house or you can leave any time.

As for her EAs. Yes she was very hurt by you and how you treated her. If she didn't like it, she could have filed for divorce. There is absolutely no excuse for cheating at all. In order for your marriage to get better if that is what you choose and I think you have a good chance of making it, you both have to own your faults, learn how to communicate and change your behavior. You need to understand what the wife's place in marriage is, and she needs to respect you. Men need respect and women need love. Look at the Love Dare, Respect Dare... Do it. They will help a lot.

Yes she did wrong. She did it intentionally, probably out of hurt. Yes you did wrong, probably unintentionally. You both need to heal. She needs to know that you love her and you need to know that she respects you. You can work through this if you want but you need to take a good look at yourself and fix yourself your behavior and so does she. I have several links that helped me that I could post if you find my advice relevant.


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## MysticMouse (Dec 17, 2012)

MovingAhead said:


> Brother,
> 
> I was just reading your post. I saw about the third post when you talked about letting you mother move in with you. When your mom and wife had a fight and you mediated it fairly (According to Men's Logic) you really screwed up in your wife's eyes.
> 
> ...


I appreciate your advice but there are some points I think you are missing.

My wife agreed to letting my mother move in. It was not done as a unilateral move on my part. She understood when she agreed to it that it would take some time for my mother to be in a position for my mother to move out. She agreed to all of it. I did not push her to agree. In fact before my mother moved in I told my wife it could create problems, but my wife insisted she would deal. Your queens word should be worth something don't you think? If not, don't bother with vows at your wedding.

Part of the discussions I had with my mother was on her financial position and how quickly she could move. I told her to find a place before Dday. She has not been living here for several months. I was only trying to get them to get along until my mother moved.


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## Ovid (Oct 11, 2012)

MovingAhead said:


> Brother,
> 
> 
> I did not understand how women interpret things well until I was going through my own divorce. So I am getting engaged now to my girlfriend. We go to a jewelry store. She picks out a ring and a diamond. Just the diamond is $60,000. I did not tell her I couldn't afford it. If I would have said I could not afford it, all she would have heard was 'I'm not worth it'. So a little painfully, I get my credit in and we see how much I can afford and I let her figure out what she wants with the money I CAN spend.


This looks a bad situation in the making IMHO


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## MovingAhead (Dec 27, 2012)

I understand what you are saying about your wife, but you still don't get it. 2+2 is not always 4, sometimes it's 3 and 1. People do not see the same thing the same way and women do not look at things the same way men do. You treated your mom like she was equal to your wife in the argument.

You didn't marry your mom. You married your wife and you should cherish her most. You need to side with your wife over your mom, because she will respect you more for doing it. It doesn't matter if it's logically correct or not.

Again as for the cheating that is totally different, but you have to own your mistakes. You were perfectly fine in your logic, but I am sure that is not how your wife saw it. (Don't let her use that as an excuse for an EA though. That is crap!)


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## MysticMouse (Dec 17, 2012)

After the fact it was something that was discussed. I never placed my mother over my wife, but I needed to demonstrate it in a way my wife would have appreciated it. I do understand now that my wife felt under appreciated. I've stood by my wife through so much I took it for granted that she would know she was first in my eyes. Instead I learned that when things are tough I can't count on her to stand by my side.


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## WifeONedge (Jan 19, 2013)

Well for one thing shes using sex to "shut you up" You need to stop "giving in" to sex, I know that its easier said than done, but what she has done is iniexcusable! what if one of those men were closer? she may have actually cheated on you by now...I don't even know where to begin...best wishes to you


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