# Wife having an affair with another woman



## jami (Apr 18, 2013)

New here so hello to all. Been married 30 years and have no minor kids. My wife and I have had a very tenuous relationship for the last few years. three years ago she filed for divorce while our youngest was still in high school. Said that she need space and did not want the responsibility of being a mother and wife and wants to be on her own. We went to counseling for a while and she reveled abuse from her childhood home and decided to put the divorce on hold. Three years we worked on our marriage but never recovered the sex life. We grew farther apart with different interests. She started hanging around with people that I could not stand. Dope smokers, drinkers just all around losers.
This last year her dress and style has changed and she has become hard around the edges. Very clean and proper but still...
I knew something was up when she started hiding things that she did not need to hide. She stopped caring where or when I came home.
This last week she started a fight with myself and daughter and went really overboard. I knew she had a guilt trip she was fighting through. I made a comment to a friend that my wife has something she is hiding and a couple of days later I get this email at work from someone that says they have something I would be interested in. bull crap I deleted it.. Then I get a printout of a string of texts form my wife to another woman that looked innocent at the time but started to increase in sexual nature with a comment of the other woman coming into town for a hook up with her. The messages got very explicit.
I sat on this information for several days, contacted my lawyer and saw a counselor to try to get a grip.
Funny thing is that I really don't care. I am pissed off that she is going to put her life and mine through hell and most likely loose all her friends and the respect of her kids. I confronted her yesterday and after a few min stopped denying the affair. I told her I filing for D and she could stay in the house but not in my bed. I am not in good place in time for the D as I put a lot of my resources into my business.
None of her friends know of her affair and I know that the other woman has a partner that she is stealthy trying to keep this from. I promised my wife that if she played nice in the divorce that I would not out her. I don't know if I should tell the other woman's partner about the affair.
I have never been alone and have no concept of what it will be like when this is over. I am going the 180 route but don't think it will have an impact on her as she wants the freedom anyway. I know I am not to blame in this relationship but cant understand why she chose the very long distant relationship.
I am looking forward to not being with her as she is someone that I would not ever be friends with if we meet the first time.
Not a nice person, very self centered, sneaky, and a cold heart.
Even so I hate that this woman is praying on my wifes desire for something more fulfilling that I can give here now. She is going to be played and spit out and find herself alone and friendless.
BTW the informant says he has more stuff but I have to pay. What a scumbag! But what a racket. I am worried now that I know that all someone has to have is a cell number and they can intercept anything. Even mine... I don't want any more information on her anyway as she has already fessed up.
I'm so confused that I don't know what I'm confused about.
I hope I can get clarity her..


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## Thumper (Mar 23, 2013)

im sorry your going thru this, hopefully the TAM posters can help you get a better grip on your options.

imho, the first thing I would have done thou is kick her out of the house. Your basically allowing her to continue this new lifestyle, while your paying for it. Not healthy for you!! Are you trying the 180 in hopes of getting her back? I'm sorry to tell ya, but I think that ship has probably done sailed.

If you want to respect yourself next week/month/year. Get her out NOW, don't worry about what she will have to do to get by. By playing nice in a divorce, are you expecting her to get less than half of what you've accumulated? have you talked to an attorney yet? She might play nice and still take you to the cleaners, check out your options. Outing her might just be the break you need in divorce proceedings, not her playing nice. 

You must be kinda stunned still by the events unfolding, and I imagine that a lot of emotions are about to start coming to a head soon. Hope you have a great support group you can fall back and rely on some. If not give yourself some outlets: friends, hobbies, reading, music, etc to keep your mind busy during those times your mind wants to take over.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

There alot of emotions going thru your head right now. so take the time to step back and gather your selh up.

Its not what knocks us down that matters, it how we get back up that counts.

So please spend the time to get awy for a day by your self and reflect on what your end game is. 

From were I am sitting its time to move on, you gave it a shot.

I also suggest that if you do have a change of heart and want to fight this fog there are tactics that can help. But in the end of the day it is your choice to just let her go and fight , or just let her go and leave her for good.

My point is letting her go right now is your best option...smile wish her the best and thank for all the wonderful years and its time you move on.

See chicks dig confident men even when they switch teams, and your confidence will...at the very least get her to second guess her choices.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

If your set on working on a better settlement then your on the right track but if your trying to save the marriage you are enabling her.

Two schools of though here. #1 head for divorce and do your best to do it amicably ( this never works but) or save the marriage and make the affair as inconvenient and as uncomfortable as possible. 

Either way just let her go!

If it was me I would start my damage control before she does. Cuz if you wait she will tell everyone you know that you lock her in a closet at night and feed her on Tuesdays and Thursdays, so thats why she is leaving you. 

Or you can start your damage control and at the very least tell everyone you know that she is leaving *you* for someone else. You don;t have to tell them which team but you can protect your reputation by prevent her from lableing you as an abusive husband.

Heaven forbid her damage control effect your business


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

An odd situation.

I don't believe in making deals, however. I believe that full disclosure to all is the best policy and let the chips fall where they may.

Everyone should know.

As to the divorce, be amicable regardless of whether or not she is.


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

Divorce is never convenient. Like getting shot isn't convenient. But she's put you in this position and the previous history indicates that counseling didn't do much insofar as saving the marriage. You stayed together, but this is not how a marriage is conducted.

So the 180 is the right thing. Being nonconfrontational in the divorce is pretty astute too. Exposing affairs is done to kill them. You are not interested in killing it so much as getting on with your life. 

Sorry this has happened to you. I am a victim of an abusive wife who was sexually molested as a child by her father. Worst case scenario. Same thing, she hid this from me until I was filing for divorce. It ended up not being worth it to give her the fourth chance. Already used up the second and third chances. 

You seem to be pretty level-headed about it. Good on you.


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## jami (Apr 18, 2013)

im not looking at 180 to see if i can work it out. Yes that ship has sailed. In fact I cant stand her. I am giving her some time to find a place. I put her on the couch. Just trying to get a compass on what is going to come next. If I try to throw her out then she will fabricate and have the cops throw me out. I have told her that we are not talking and not to try to argue with me as i am recording everything we say. I am being a total prick without being an obvious prick. If she wants to be a rug muncher then do it outside the house. no phone calls to OW while I'm home. I just going to make it look like the grass is greener outside the house. The play nice thing is to keep the peace here in this situation. As soon as she lawyers up i know things can change. Been there..... But..... for now I have the upper hand as she does not wanted to be outed. Not yet at least as I know she is experimenting. Once I play my hand I have no cards left. Still debating on letting the OW partner know. Love to see her face when I tell her that Im going to expose to her partner. I wish blackmail was legal.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

Wiserforit said:


> Exposing affairs is done to kill them. You are not interested in killing it so much as getting on with your life.


I liked your post save this part.

Betrayals are exposed for a variety of reasons. 

It's so that those who are spouses/significant others/partners of the betrayers are rightfully made aware their other half is betraying them. They have a right to know. 

It's also done to show them that their dirty little secrets they have are not so secret anymore and that they are people who cannot be trusted for those who may do so.

There is also the shame factor. People who have been shamed may become retrospective of what kind of a person they are and try and change. 

I also think full exposure is a part of dealing positively with the pain and in aiding the healing process.

There are other reasons but those come to mind readily.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

jami said:


> Still debating on letting the OW partner know. Love to see her face when I tell her that Im going to expose to her partner.


Don't tell her anything. Just do it for the sake of honesty.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

You can alway get through the divorce then expose to OW partner.


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## jami (Apr 18, 2013)

Thank you wiserforit. Thatbpguy.. the problem here is I have the contact info for the OW I don't for the partner. I just know about her. BTW the OW is in a gay relationship also. 
Always fantasized about a threesome with my wife but when faced with this. Damm.....not at all what i expected


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## Thumper (Mar 23, 2013)

Exposing it might just be really important to the other person affected by this relationship. You know about it, but what if you didn't, wouldn't you appreciate the fact someone told you what was really going on behind your back. It doesn't have to be now, but i'd defin. pass the info on sooner than later. Blindsided is blindsided. Even if she's gay herself, i'm sure she'd appreciate some honesty.


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## PreRaphaelite (Dec 15, 2012)

Think of it this way, if you were the OWs partner, would you want to know? Of course you would. You should find out who she is and tell her.

As for your wife, she's obviously gone butch on you. Right choice in letting her go her own way. 

I wouldn't deal with this informant if I were you. It sounds like your stbxw and her new lover are in with the wrong crowd. You want to stay well away from them.


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## LostViking (Mar 26, 2013)

I think you are on the right track. Divorce her and be done with it. She has turned her back on you and her children. 

And in the end it doesnt matter which sex she is cheating with. A cheater is a cheater. 

I would venture to guess this is not your wife's first stroll down Lesbian Boulevard. My sister kept her true sexual orientation a secret from her family for over 30 years, and she did a very good job of it. When she finally came out a few years back, alot of unanswered questions we all had were answered. 

Your wife has either been a closet lesbian all her life or she is going through a milife crisis coupled with sexual confusion. Whatever the case may be, you are handling it the right way. You are willing to give up the marriage and that may very well end up being what saves it. I have a sneaking suspicion if she doesnt join the butch crowd she might come crawling back to you.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

BTW the informant says he has more stuff but I have to pay

Maybe you will have stuff that you can use in a divorce. Pay it, just as if you would pay a PI.


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## Jasel (Jan 8, 2013)

Sorry to hear you're going through this but seems like you're taking the right steps to do what is right for you.

One thing I will say is stop giving her the heads up about what you're planning to do or thinking about planning. Just do it and let her find out from the fallout/consequences. 

Otherwise you're just giving her and the OW time to prepare/get their story straight and it's really not going to benefit you regardless telling her what your next move is going to be.

If you're going to file for divorce, file. Don't tell her you're filing. If you're going to out the OW, out her, don't tell your wife you're outing her. If you're going to expose to family and friends, expose to family and friends. Don't tell you're wife you're going to expose.


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## jami (Apr 18, 2013)

What a roller coaster ride. Last night I got some good sleep after feeling empowered from all of the positive posts i received here last night. This morning I see my wife sitting on the couch in the living room where I have her staying. There is no remorse coming from her. She has been on her computer doing god knows what. She has asked our nineteen year old to spy on me. I really need her to leave. She has no cash and don't know if she has anywhere to go. 
Should I give her some money to get out? The tension is getting worse.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

She has been extrincating herself from the marriage for years.
It's unlikely This OW is her first rodeo, hanging out with new friends, changing looks... she has been crossing boundaires for I can almost garantee you she was already f0cking someone else when she asked "space" three years ago: It's basically a code straight out of the waywards handbook.
For some reason (maybe got dumped by that other AP, maybe waiting to become empty nester, maybe finances, lifestyle...) she then decided cake eating fitted more for her, hence the flaunting openly a second, separated life. That's why sexual life never went back. She never had the genuine intention of fixing the marriage but to string you along until the right moment or someone "definitive" popped up. It's unlikely OW is actualy "trhe one" but another one in a string of APs.

If you believe that more dirty secrets can help you to get a better deal I'd pit in place some snooping tools (Keylogger, VAR, etc). If not then let it go.

You can do better without the dead weight.


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## Thumper (Mar 23, 2013)

NO YOU DONT GIVE HER MONEY!! she choose this route, now let her live the results of her decision. Its not your problem anymore. Its funny how fast a person discovers "oh crud, the grass wasn't greener after all". You might need to out the relationship to your son, if you haven't already. so he doesn't feel like he's stuck in the middle. Let him decide how he wants to deal with it, he's a big boy now.


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## LostViking (Mar 26, 2013)

The son is 19?

Tell him to toe the line in your house or he is out on his ear. Do not take any garbage from him.


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## sunshinetoday (Mar 7, 2012)

Most women who have an A with another woman at that age are usually sexual confused or have been fantasizing about being with a woman for a long time. It's not always the same dynamic as a M/F affair, but I'm sure it hurts just as bad. 

As far as paying for the info? I call BS. DONT PAY ANYTHING. Do your own sleuthing now. Find the OW's partner and expose! 

As others have stated you are on the right path being willing to let the marriage go. Good luck and start gathering your own info, not blackmail.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Giving her money for her to leave is just rewarding her for her bad behavior toward the family.

I suggest you keep her on the couch and when she is out of the house just take a a little pit of the cushion out of it. By the end of the week it will be uncomfortable and she will end up on the floor...maybe with in another week she will be in the shed...

Now theres an idea, if your going to spend money spend it building her a shack in the back yard.

I hope my sarcasm and dry humor put a small smile on your face today?

In all seriousness stay disengaged and indifferent, also knowing that women has made choices in her life that has ended her sleeping on a couch in her own home at her age.

Hell turn the living room into her bedroom so when you have company over they can see what your wife has made of her self.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Remember to keep that VAR on you when your home...its just a matter of time before the humiliation of sleeping on a lumpy couch gets to her she tries something desperate.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

I'd pay the money to the informant, but not if its big bucks.

I would expose to the OW partner. 

One thing I think you will find is that your wife is nit going to keep her side of the barging no matter what you do, she is already trying to get people to spy on you, so she's already playing dirty. 

You need to expect that she will renege on her side at the worst possible moment. Ok, if you can see that coming what can you do to deal with it? She fears exposure etc? Ok, so have exposure set up and ready to go the moment she breaks her side of the deal.

I of agree that getting her gone ASAP is best, but I think you'll find she isn't going to go easily or unfortunately forever.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Jami

You have been given good advice.

Your wife is nuts. I know you know that.

Please protect yourself anyway you can.

You should proceed with the Divorce.

Get your wife out of your life and home as quick as possible.

If it was me then I would expose the affair.

I would also report the blackmail to the FBI. But that is JMO.

Good Luck and keep posting.

But above all protect yourself and your family.

HM64


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Have you thought about hiring a pi and getting the dirt on your wife and her new friends?


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## Thumper (Mar 23, 2013)

I personally don't see what paying an informant is gonna do for you, you sound like you're already moving on. Whats that information gonna do for you? you don't need the reinforcement of the decision. Just get her out of the house NOW. let her worry about her, and you worry about you.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

jami said:


> New here so hello to all. Been married 30 years and have no minor kids. My wife and I have had a very tenuous relationship for the last few years. three years ago she filed for divorce while our youngest was still in high school. Said that she need space and did not want the responsibility of being a mother and wife and wants to be on her own. We went to counseling for a while and she reveled abuse from her childhood home and decided to put the divorce on hold. Three years we worked on our marriage but never recovered the sex life. We grew farther apart with different interests. She started hanging around with people that I could not stand. Dope smokers, drinkers just all around losers.
> This last year her dress and style has changed and she has become hard around the edges. Very clean and proper but still...
> I knew something was up when she started hiding things that she did not need to hide. She stopped caring where or when I came home.
> This last week she started a fight with myself and daughter and went really overboard. I knew she had a guilt trip she was fighting through. I made a comment to a friend that my wife has something she is hiding and a couple of days later I get this email at work from someone that says they have something I would be interested in. bull crap I deleted it.. Then I get a printout of a string of texts form my wife to another woman that looked innocent at the time but started to increase in sexual nature with a comment of the other woman coming into town for a hook up with her. The messages got very explicit.
> ...


It's possible it was the OW's partner who sent you the text messages. Or the OW herself, hoping you'd divorce your wife and leave the coast clear for her...


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> It's possible it was the OW's partner who sent you the text messages. Or the OW herself, hoping you'd divorce your wife and leave the coast clear for her...


Many times it's the AP the "informant" to force the reluctant cake eater off the fence. Why the money, to fund the new relationship.
Is it possible deep throat might be talking about a different affair?


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## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

Are you sure the other person is biologically a woman?


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## jami (Apr 18, 2013)

have not given up on this post. been an awful day. Got up in the morning yesterday and asked my wife to spend the day looking for a place to go sooner than later. Big augment.
Got a text that there is more to the story than i think. I confronted her and asked about this OW. I had my doubts but I told her that i thought that the OW was really a man. She said yes. She said it was only a short series of texts and nothing has happened yet. I reminded her that there was a plan for a future hookup in future based on the texts. She said she did not know if she could ever go through with it. She said that she looked the feeling she was getting from the relationship. We talked a long time about what I was feeling and how I saw our relationship was failing. 
I never got a commitment from her that the relationship with the OM would stop. I sent a text to her "texting lover" letting him know that I would not tolerate any more contact during the time my wife and i get this separation done. 
It is over but I am having pits in my stomach looking at the **** storm of legal stuff ahead like How much the lawyers are going to cost and how much my life is going to change. She suggested that we get separated for now. Sounded like a good idea yesterday but not so much now. She is taking half the household stuff. No biggie. Said that she wants half the proceeds in the house when we sell it and wants me to pay for her rent and deduct it from that. She is acting fair but something is up. I just know it. 
Where do I turn to gain the strength and confidence that I can move forward in my life with out her. I can fix this marriage for now but it wont last. looking back I see that she checked out long time ago. Afraid of the future.


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## Thumper (Mar 23, 2013)

I feel for ya, man do I feel for ya. I understand the weight of the divorce, the 2nd guessing of EVERYTHING, give it some time, you don't have to do anything today or even this week. i'd still be harboring some ill feelings about anything she wants to be honest, but do what you think is right. Make a few ground rules, like rent ONLY if you willing to go that far. Not the power/water/garbage bills too. Don't let her run you over emotionally, or manipulate/guilt you into something else. The separation can be a very healing time for you, lots of anxiety yes, but still you find out a lot about yourself during that time.
Keep us updated, im really following your story since its so so similar to mine in many ways. aren't they all I guess? Come to us for advice/support or hell even if you just need to vent on a bad day.


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## jami (Apr 18, 2013)

Thanks thumper. We talked today for a little bit. We both agreed that we have some really bad trust issues. she had a very very bad childhood. Started surfacing three years ago. She is 50 now. To this date she has never told me everything that happened. But it is showing up in our marriage now. My part is I am very codependent. 
I am not sure about the fling. She is in a very messed up place now in her head. Started going through menopause went to DR and got on some kind of patch started acting very weird, confused, went off patch last week, depression. I told her I have my suspicions that she is cake eating. That I am suspicious in her desire to separate just so she can have what she wants. I told her that I may decide to just do the divorce.
I just don't know if i am being played. She could be a manipulator or really have some messed up issues that refuse to notice. Any way if it is the first i need to get my mojo in order to make the move.


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## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

aug said:


> Are you sure the other person is biologically a woman?





jami said:


> have not given up on this post. been an awful day. Got up in the morning yesterday and asked my wife to spend the day looking for a place to go sooner than later. Big augment.
> Got a text that there is more to the story than i think. I confronted her and asked about this OW. *I had my doubts but I told her that i thought that the OW was really a man. She said yes.* She said it was only a short series of texts and nothing has happened yet. I reminded her that there was a plan for a future hookup in future based on the texts. She said she did not know if she could ever go through with it. She said that she looked the feeling she was getting from the relationship. We talked a long time about what I was feeling and how I saw our relationship was failing.



Called it.

She's making conscious decisions to repeatedly lie to you.

Protect yourself.


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## bryanp (Aug 25, 2011)

You are being played. If the roles were reversed would she be buying into this like you have?
1. Get tested for STD's.
2. Get a lawyer now and protect yourself.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

Why separation?
It's clearly designed to string you along in case OM doesn't work. She wants the try out.
It's typical. At least she's honest, she didn't commit to stop go NC with him.
I want again to warn you it's not her first rodeo at all. Read my earlier post, the moment she gave you the ILYBINILWY-wanted separation years ago she was already cheating on you. If you add to this the complete separate single-like life she has been having the past three years you get she has been likely serialy cheating for a while.

I didn't told you to pay this "informant" becasue I believed you were done and heading for D but if you are considering a trial separation then I suggest you to get the info. On top of this I'd put in place all the snooping tools at hand.

Be sure what has been going on for the past thre years. take the red pill. Make informed decisions. Don't allow yourself to played anymore.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Jami

Divorces take months. That is all the separation you need. Agree to nothing and go meet with a lawyer so you actually have some real facts. 

Your wife is lying to you. 

Do not agree to anything until you meet a lawyer.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

*Re: Re: Wife having an affair with another woman*



Acabado said:


> Why separation?
> It's clearly designed to string you along in case OM doesn't work. She wants the try out.
> It's typical. At least she's honest, she didn't commit to stop go NC with him.
> I want again to warn you it's not her first rodeo at all. Read my earlier post, the moment she gave you the ILYBINILWY-wanted separation years ago she was already cheating on you. If you add to this the complete separate single-like life she has been having the past three years you get she has been likely serialy cheating for a while.
> ...


I agree. When she filed for divorce previously she was probably having an affair then. It didn't work out so she came back to the marriage. Any chance this informant is a past lover she may have spurned?


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## jami (Apr 18, 2013)

Lot have happened sence last post. We have had a couple of civel talks. Even had a small talk with my daughter. One thing I learned from my wife is in fact the OW is an OM. Took a couple of days of talking to peace things together. She did not want to disclose everything. The texts to this other guy may well have been a series of exciting fun shared by her girl friend and her. The guy is and old BF from thirty years ago and I know he is married. The things I read in the texts really are not my wifes style and she said that she had help from her best friend and they both sat together while sending the texts. She admitted she send and received some provocative photos as well. I know I told all of you that she filed for divorce three years ago and most here have suggested that she was having an affair them as well. Maybe but we were haveing trouble. Mostly me. I was not not giving her any of my attention and was spending all my time in my hobby. I was neglecting the house , kids, and her, During that time she spent a lot of time over with a group of woman that really hate men. And she always had my daughter with her. She was 17 at the time. I asked my daughter if Mon could have been messing around then and she said no way, She could have been lying but her body language and subtle reactions makes me believe her. So going forward we started to work thing out. She never hid her cell phone, laptop, bills, And always answered her phone in front of me and never left the room to talk who ever called. No reason to for mistrust for three years. Fast forward to now. I got into my bad habits of neglecting her. She started menopause and I ignored it. She went on hormone patches and turned into a jeckel and hyde. I pulled away farther. I lost all interest in sex with her. 
So for the last few days I have been a mess. Cant focus, stomach hurts, employes pissed off and my contracts are starting to look elsewhere so i took a trip to my Dr for some help with my anxiety. Xanax!! What a great little pill. My Dr is her Dr as well and we talked bit about all this and he pretty much slapped me up side the head. He said women can get pretty promiscuous on hormone replacement. Possible she was acting out for fun with the sexing especially with her friend by her side. 
This story could all be a bunch of bull **** and i am still guarded. Still have my appointment with my lawyer tomorrow to make sure i have my financial orders in place. She is still packing but is being a little to fair in the division of property. Want help in her rent and will sign a post op offering to deduct what ever I give her now from the proceeds of the sale of the house. We have agreed not to involve any lawyers for now and try a separation. She is sacred to death to live alone as she is legally deaf and cant hear with out her aids when she sleeps. Sure she might be cake eating but if she is not and turns out she is telling the truth I am going to regret giving up so easy over something so trivial especially when My lack of being a proper husband could have been the blame. But If I find out differently then a holy war is in store and I am prepared to file. There is a really good chance that she using all this to wake me up. I reviewed the 180 and It is not going to work for now, It will make things worse if i am wrong. I am going to redirect my life and attention back to her. Funny If the tables were turned and I did the same thing to her i might have done the same thing I might be wrong, Most you you guys will think in wrong but a few days of trying something different wont make make much of a difference, 
Every day you think you have a handle only to have the next day changing your mind. I wish i married a blow up doll sometimes.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

Don't ya just love it. More lies and deceit. 

Betrayers.

Burn 'em.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Contact the OMW and warn her that her husband is cheatng on her.

I'm guessing she planson using the separation as an open time to cheat while keeping you on the back burner? If she likes it she'll file, if the guys are jerks she may come back.

Why would you accept those terms from her?


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## ShatteredKat (Mar 23, 2016)

I suggest a couple of books - mostly for you to get a grip on what is/has happened.

"Miss America by Day" - Marilyn Van Debur

"The Body Keeps the Score" - Bessel Van Der Kolk

What you are relating about your (current?) wife - fits Marilyn to a "t" and is described in detail by Mr. (MD) Kolk

If she can get herself fixed - you may have a chance - but just how much Merde Panini can you eat?


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

ShatteredKat said:


> I suggest a couple of books - mostly for you to get a grip on what is/has happened.
> 
> "Miss America by Day" - Marilyn Van Debur
> 
> ...


seven-year-old thread


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Guys, this is a zombie thread...


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Zombie thread which is now closed.


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