# Lost, Sad and Confused, "I don't know" please help!!



## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

I’ve been reading these forums and followed some good threads for the past couple months and hope to get some good direction in my current situation. Long story short, my wife and I have been separated for going on 10 weeks now; we had only been married a little over 7 months before the separation and had our first child in the fall. We had been dating over the year and a half prior to getting married, up and down relationship but had talked about getting married and having a family together. I know I love my wife with 110% of my heart, I moved in with my wife last spring and we had good times, no real bad times and after the wedding things were good also. A couple months after the baby was born, I noticed her starting to become more distant. She has never really been affectionate towards me in the past but it really came to a halt at this time and every time I tried to initiate affection I was rejected almost every time. It was during this time when I would try to communicate how I was feeling about her distance and lack of affection and it seemed that it would always upset her to the point of her yelling at me and starting a fight, saying some very mean and cold things to me. Tempers would cool, I would always apologize if I had said something hurtful in these fights and she would always say “Me too”, but never be the first to apologize to me. I always chalked these up to post partum or the difficulties of getting used to having a baby around and forgave her every time, I wanted nothing more than for us to have a wonderful marriage and family together but could not understand why she was so distant with me and wouldn’t spend more than a couple hours in the evenings and maybe around 6 hours or so a day on weekends with me and our child. I suggested that we go to marriage counseling but she was totally against it. Then the first part of this year we had another fight and she asked that I move out. The first 3 weeks of our separation were ugly, lots of fighting and arguing and her saying very cold and hateful things to me, I did my best to keep my cool and not engage in saying anything mean and cold as I was not for the separation and wanted us to work on things but she said she couldn’t do it anymore and wanted a divorce. I told her we shouldn’t rush into making that decision and after the first few weeks, emotions cooled and things seemed to calm down, we got along better and would talk a little bit and it was nice, seemed like we were starting to put the past few weeks behind us. I started seeing an IC to work on me, suggested we try marriage counseling but was again denied that. I started saying that I wanted to start spending some time together, talking more and work on us, I always got the famous “I don’t know” and “we’ll see”. I’d ask if she was sure she wanted to divorce and got the “I don’t know”. At this time I started with the whole begging and pleading to start working on things but to no avail. This has gone on for the past 6 weeks or so and I feel it’s pushed her further away as today she said that she doesn’t love me like she did before and that she doesn’t see ever being the same and that she’s not sure she will ever be ready to work things out and be together. I said I would stop pursuing and give her space to think about things but will always be here and be open to start working on us. I asked if she was going to file for divorce and she said probably, I asked when and got the “Not sure” and was told that things can never be the same. So I am at a loss, I feel empty and sad inside because I love this girl more than anything and want nothing more than to have a wonderful life and family together. I’ve tried pieces of the 180 in recent weeks but find it hard to do at times when I start the begging and pleading. When I do well at the 180 I get it thrown back at me that I won’t talk to her and I hardly say anything to her when I do see her. I’m not sure where to go from here so I decided to post and get some advice from the community.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

LovingHusband414 said:


> I’ve been reading these forums and followed some good threads for the past couple months and hope to get some good direction in my current situation. Long story short, my wife and I have been separated for going on 10 weeks now; we had only been married a little over 7 months before the separation and had our first child in the fall. We had been dating over the year and a half prior to getting married, up and down relationship but had talked about getting married and having a family together. I know I love my wife with 110% of my heart, I moved in with my wife last spring and we had good times, no real bad times and after the wedding things were good also. A couple months after the baby was born, I noticed her starting to become more distant. She has never really been affectionate towards me in the past but it really came to a halt at this time and every time I tried to initiate affection I was rejected almost every time. It was during this time when I would try to communicate how I was feeling about her distance and lack of affection and it seemed that it would always upset her to the point of her yelling at me and starting a fight, saying some very mean and cold things to me. Tempers would cool, I would always apologize if I had said something hurtful in these fights and she would always say “Me too”, but never be the first to apologize to me. I always chalked these up to post partum or the difficulties of getting used to having a baby around and forgave her every time, I wanted nothing more than for us to have a wonderful marriage and family together but could not understand why she was so distant with me and wouldn’t spend more than a couple hours in the evenings and maybe around 6 hours or so a day on weekends with me and our child. I suggested that we go to marriage counseling but she was totally against it. Then the first part of this year we had another fight and she asked that I move out. The first 3 weeks of our separation were ugly, lots of fighting and arguing and her saying very cold and hateful things to me, I did my best to keep my cool and not engage in saying anything mean and cold as I was not for the separation and wanted us to work on things but she said she couldn’t do it anymore and wanted a divorce. I told her we shouldn’t rush into making that decision and after the first few weeks, emotions cooled and things seemed to calm down, we got along better and would talk a little bit and it was nice, seemed like we were starting to put the past few weeks behind us. I started seeing an IC to work on me, suggested we try marriage counseling but was again denied that. I started saying that I wanted to start spending some time together, talking more and work on us, I always got the famous “I don’t know” and “we’ll see”. I’d ask if she was sure she wanted to divorce and got the “I don’t know”. At this time I started with the whole begging and pleading to start working on things but to no avail. This has gone on for the past 6 weeks or so and I feel it’s pushed her further away as today she said that she doesn’t love me like she did before and that she doesn’t see ever being the same and that she’s not sure she will ever be ready to work things out and be together. I said I would stop pursuing and give her space to think about things but will always be here and be open to start working on us. I asked if she was going to file for divorce and she said probably, I asked when and got the “Not sure” and was told that things can never be the same. So I am at a loss, I feel empty and sad inside because I love this girl more than anything and want nothing more than to have a wonderful life and family together. I’ve tried pieces of the 180 in recent weeks but find it hard to do at times when I start the begging and pleading. When I do well at the 180 I get it thrown back at me that I won’t talk to her and I hardly say anything to her when I do see her. I’m not sure where to go from here so I decided to post and get some advice from the community.


Hi LH. The fact that, according to what you have said here, the problems seem to have begun shortly after the birth of your child is a possible red flag. Has she spoken to her doctor? 

Is she getting enough sleep? Is she a stay-at-home Mom or is she working? Are you helping with child care, cooking, housework? Is she able to get out and have time to herself?

You don’t understand why she only will only spend two hours in the evenings and six hours a day with you and your child. What do you mean by spending time? You really need to define that or you will have every woman here who has had a baby on your case!

As for the 180, if you drop it when she complains you won’t talk to her, no wonder it isn’t working. First of all, the 180 doesn’t mean you can’t talk to her. It means you limit the exchanges to necessary interactions, usually around the child, finances, the house. Second, if you do let it go when she ‘complains’ then you are yo-yoing and that is just confusing. Third, the 180 is not meant as a method to get your wife back, it is a list of strategies to help you become stronger. Begging will only make you seem weak.....and that is the last thing a mother with an infant needs.


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## sarajane231 (Mar 12, 2013)

LH, that's really sad to read, I'm so sorry for you. 

My OH had a similar marriage, and it also got much worse after the birth of their child, which he put down to lack of sleep and post partum. The key issue is that you said she wasn't affectionate to begin with.

If she wasn't to begin with, and then you add in the stress of a baby, it always makes things worse. Having a baby is really hard.

That said, my OH stayed married for 16 years, and it got worse and worse. The the point of him hugging her and he standing there like a plank of wood or flinching when he touched her. There was never any arguments, it was just a long, cold, slow freeze. In the end the marriage ended, but he wishes he'd ended it sooner so it's good news for you that the issue is being dealt with 7 months into it rather than 17 years. It sounds like separation will make or break you.

My OH never found out the reasons. All she ever said was "I'm just tired" if he asked her. To this day he never found out.

It must be so, so hard to have someone unwilling to communicate with you and so frustrating, but just remember that you deserve to be loved back and if this problem can't be resolved...or if she doesn't want to try, you can and will find someone who will love and adore you and that will make you happier in the end.

xx


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

sarajane231 said:


> LH, that's really sad to read, I'm so sorry for you.
> 
> My OH had a similar marriage, and it also got much worse after the birth of their child, which he put down to lack of sleep and post partum. The key issue is that you said she wasn't affectionate to begin with.
> 
> ...


She may not be i a position, emotionally or physically to try, much less communicate. An infant is exhausting. With my first two, I was so very tired all the time. When my H got home, all I wanted was time to myself and not necessarily to sleep (although that would have been Heaven). I needed to know that there was still a ‘me’ as a separate entity from the baby and, much as I loved him, his incessant demands.

Whether or not she was affectionate before is at this point a moot point.....unless of course, they have the Dream Baby who sleeps all night, feeds well, and has no digestive or other health issues. In this case, barring Post-Partum Depression, then perhaps not being affectionate before might be a factor.


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## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

Thank you for the responses, I really appreciate the feedback!

I don’t believe she has spoken to her doctor, if she has she didn’t share that with me, she told me on a couple different occasions that she didn’t have PPD. I took her word for it and trusted her but I was still concerned because she is on anti-depressants and has been ever since I have known her, except for when she was pregnant. She is working a full-time, 8-5 job; she took a couple months off to stay home with our child after he was born but then went back to work. During the two months she was at home, she took great care of our son during the day when I was at work and she would stay out with him during the night. I would wake up 2-3 hours before I was to leave for work and care for our son so she could get some rest and sleep. If he was having a night where he didn’t want to sleep or was fussy I would always be there to help in any way I could, we were a great team during this time. When I got home from work I would care for him so she could have a time to get rest and sleep or have some “her” time if she wanted it. When she went back to work, she would take him to day care in the morning and pick him up after she got off work. As soon as I got home, about an hour after she did, I would take care of our son, I fed him probably 90% of the time, slept on the couch every night so I could wake up to feed him or change his diaper and do anything he needed. I knew she was tired and at times wasn’t sleeping very well so I didn’t have a problem staying out to care for our child while she went to bed; I wanted to make sure she got her rest and sleep. The thing that I didn’t understand was that, after she went back to work, this was every night and all weekend. By spending time together, I mean being out in the same room and interacting with our child and me. After I got home from work, she would always spend 1-2 hours interacting with us, then go back to the bedroom and shut the door for the rest of the night, saying she was tired and/or wasn’t feeling good. If she did come out of the bedroom, she would never come in to see how we were doing. I’m not saying she was/is a bad mother; she does a great job when she interacts with and cares for our child, I just didn’t see the interaction very often. I would try to talk to her about her and I sleeping in the same bed and said that we could bring our son in the room with us at night; I also said I would get up and take care of him when he woke up in the middle of the night, that she didn’t have to get up if she didn’t want to. She would always say we will eventually, that now she just wants to sleep, and I would drop the subject. I did help with housework, did all of the grocery shopping, cooked when we ate at home and went out and picked up food for us when we didn’t. I was supportive of her getting out with friends and she did on a few occasions. I also suggested that we get a sitter for one night so her and I could go out and get away, go have dinner, go to a movie, anything to just get some us time for a few hours but this was always shot down, saying she’s not ready to do that yet. I respected that and dropped it, trusting her that eventually we would get out and have date nights from time to time eventually.

This separation has been hard on me; I want my wife back and I really do miss her. We are splitting time with our son so I do have him half of the time and I enjoy every minute of that. I just hope that we can be together as a family again and I will do anything I can to have that again. I hope I haven’t completely lost her and that we can start working on us at some point.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

LovingHusband414 said:


> Thank you for the responses, I really appreciate the feedback!
> 
> I don’t believe she has spoken to her doctor, if she has she didn’t share that with me, she told me on a couple different occasions that she didn’t have PPD. I took her word for it and trusted her but I was still concerned because she is on anti-depressants and has been ever since I have known her, except for when she was pregnant. She is working a full-time, 8-5 job; she took a couple months off to stay home with our child after he was born but then went back to work. During the two months she was at home, she took great care of our son during the day when I was at work and she would stay out with him during the night. I would wake up 2-3 hours before I was to leave for work and care for our son so she could get some rest and sleep. If he was having a night where he didn’t want to sleep or was fussy I would always be there to help in any way I could, we were a great team during this time. When I got home from work I would care for him so she could have a time to get rest and sleep or have some “her” time if she wanted it. When she went back to work, she would take him to day care in the morning and pick him up after she got off work. As soon as I got home, about an hour after she did, I would take care of our son, I fed him probably 90% of the time, slept on the couch every night so I could wake up to feed him or change his diaper and do anything he needed. I knew she was tired and at times wasn’t sleeping very well so I didn’t have a problem staying out to care for our child while she went to bed; I wanted to make sure she got her rest and sleep. The thing that I didn’t understand was that, after she went back to work, this was every night and all weekend. By spending time together, I mean being out in the same room and interacting with our child and me. After I got home from work, she would always spend 1-2 hours interacting with us, then go back to the bedroom and shut the door for the rest of the night, saying she was tired and/or wasn’t feeling good. If she did come out of the bedroom, she would never come in to see how we were doing. I’m not saying she was/is a bad mother; she does a great job when she interacts with and cares for our child, I just didn’t see the interaction very often. I would try to talk to her about her and I sleeping in the same bed and said that we could bring our son in the room with us at night; I also said I would get up and take care of him when he woke up in the middle of the night, that she didn’t have to get up if she didn’t want to. She would always say we will eventually, that now she just wants to sleep, and I would drop the subject. I did help with housework, did all of the grocery shopping, cooked when we ate at home and went out and picked up food for us when we didn’t. I was supportive of her getting out with friends and she did on a few occasions. I also suggested that we get a sitter for one night so her and I could go out and get away, go have dinner, go to a movie, anything to just get some us time for a few hours but this was always shot down, saying she’s not ready to do that yet. I respected that and dropped it, trusting her that eventually we would get out and have date nights from time to time eventually.
> 
> This separation has been hard on me; I want my wife back and I really do miss her. We are splitting time with our son so I do have him half of the time and I enjoy every minute of that. I just hope that we can be together as a family again and I will do anything I can to have that again. I hope I haven’t completely lost her and that we can start working on us at some point.


Wow! You have been terrific. 

She needs to talk to her doctor for a few of reasons. First, she cannot diagnose PPD (or its absence) on her own. Its a medical condition. I didn’t recognize it with my first, but looking back...i had it. Second, she was on anti-depressents before. Due to changes in her body (by the way, it takes seven years for a woman’s body to return completely to its pre-preganacy state), her meds may need adjusting. Third, she was off her meds during the pregnancy. It takes time for those meds to build up again in her system. She may not be there yet. (I am curious as to how she managed off the meds. I crashed when taken off during my last pregnancy and had to be put back on. My daughter is fine.)

Is she nursing? That can take a toll. As for not wanting to share a bed, she could be worried about sex. It can be scary the first time after giving birth.

Dom’t take the baby into your bedroom. He needs to get used to being in his own bed in his own room. You will only create problems in the future. Nothing is harder than a child who can’t fall asleep by himself.

Anyway, the desire to sleep may be a symptom that her depression is not under control. Encourage her to talk to her doctor. If you have the same doctor, mention the concerns yourself. He can’t discuss your wife with you, but having a head’s up, he may bring up questions around depression with her without mentioning that you have spoken to him.


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## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

Thank you, Frostflower!! I will do anything to make sure my son is taken care of and has everything he needs; I will always do that and be there for him no matter what the circumstance.

Yeah, I knew it could take some time and possible adjusting for the meds to build up again. She started taking them again right after our son was born and was pretty regular with taking them up until we separated. I’m not sure if she is keeping up with them since the separation. Each time I would encourage her to talk to her doctor about it she would say she’s fine and that would be the end of the conversation. Still, I would be more than patient and supportive of her when it comes to these changes/adjustments. We don’t have the same doctor so I don’t have the opportunity to bring it up with him.

She is not nursing, no. She has said to me on a couple occasions that she wasn’t ready for sex and I respected that, I would be patient and supportive with that and want her to be ready when she’s ready. I’m talking about just sleeping together at night, being in the same bed, cuddling up as we fall asleep or wake up in each other’s arms and giving each other a good morning kiss or a kiss good night. It almost seemed we had become more like roommates than husband and wife during those couple months.

I know we have to communicate when it comes to our son, that has to happen and I am always honest and forthcoming with her when it comes to him. I am just so confused with things right now because I don’t know if I should go full blown NC or limit communication with her as regards to us, if there is much of an “us” left to repair since we really don’t see each other for more than a minute or so once or twice a week and it’s been that way since the separation. I will definitely back off on the talk of us starting to talk and do things more, maybe hang out a little bit. Any advice or help would be much appreciated!!


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

PPD sounds very probable, but not the only possibility.

What does she do while she's in the bedroom all that time? Are you sure she is sleeping? Is she on the computer a lot? 

If things started changing after she went back to work then an EA (emotional affair) with a coworker could explain the emotional detachment from you. 

Many of the things you described were things I observed in my X once her EA started. Relying on me to do almost all the housework and parenting. Distant. Indecisive. 

If she won't go out with you, does she go out with friends at all?


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## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

When she is in the bedroom, she would mostly lay in there and watch TV or movies. Usually she’d do that for a couple hours if it was during the week then she would go to sleep. On the weekends she would do the same or nap while in there. The door was always shut but every time I went in there she was doing that or sleeping.

She wasn’t on her computer a lot but she did have her phone with her. It’s funny you mention the EA because that is definitely something that I have wondered about quite a bit. At times she would guard her phone like a hawk but it wasn’t all the time. With the way she got so distant the idea of her having an EA was definitely in the back of my mind as she could have been in there texting away and I wouldn’t have known it, I never saw her texting while she was in there.

She went out with one of her friends 2-3 times after our son was born; she also went to get her hair done on a couple different occasions as well, I thought that it was good for her to go have some “her” time. I never understood why she didn’t want to go do things with me though, even something simple like dinner and a movie.

I’ve read your thread zillard and I do see some similarities in your experiences, those were the main reason I decided to go ahead and post mine, to try to get some advice and direction. I don’t know if our marriage is truly over, from the things she says it seems like she has already decided that’s what she wants but then she will say something and we will have conversation that makes it seem like she’s really not sure if she wants a D, it’s like a roller coaster and has been that way for the last 6 weeks or so.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

Absolutely no more begging and pleading. As you've noticed already, it makes you look weak and will push her away. No relationship talk unless initiated by her. 

If possible, I would suggest investigating further. She will not go to the doc to get checked for PPD, so what do you have left to do? VAR under the car seat. Try and get into that phone without her knowing. Check phone records. See what is going on there. If she's protective about the phone I would assume there is a reason.

My X never had an issue sharing passwords or guarding her phone until there was a reason. That's part of how I knew something was up.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

And if you do find something, do NOT confront her yet.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

In one of the good moments, how about asking her to go to MC with you?


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> In one of the good moments, how about asking her to go to MC with you?


If you do decide to do this, I would suggest setting up an appointment first and tell her you will be going, that you are going no matter what, and invite her to join you. 

Decisive man with a plan. Action, not words that can be interpreted as empty.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

And get No More Mister Nice Guy and Married Man's Sex Life Primer. Two good books that will probably help you out regardless of how this goes down.


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## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

Zillard – Yeah, I am done with the begging and pleading, it has seemed to push her further away. I will table the relationship talk as well, unless it is initiated by her. What about normal, everyday chit chat? We haven’t done much of that since I left the first of the year but there are some days we seem to have a little back and forth. Should that be initiated by her as well? I’m so torn on whether to go NC unless it has to do with our son. It seems that if I did initiate normal conversation, sometimes she will go along for a little bit, other times she seems so disinterested in it. Then if I get less chatty she will throw it back at me that I don’t talk to her. Again with the back and forth that confuses the hell out of me.

The investigating further is not an option at the moment, we haven’t lived together since the first of the year and she has her own phone plan. The only time we do see each other is to exchange visitation with our son and those meetings are generally less than 2-3 minutes.

Frostflower - I told her a few weeks ago that I was seeing an IC because she thinks I have trust issues, mainly stemming from looking at her phone a few times over the last couple months we were still living together. When things were going rough for us I suggested we try MC but she refused to go. She gave no real reason for not wanting to go other than “I don’t want to”. So she knows I have been going to IC, I have been to 8 sessions since the first of the year, although I haven’t told her I’ve been to that many. I might see about asking her to go during one of our good moments, I would love for her to go with me, although I think I already know her answer to that question. As zillard said, I would definitely make the appointment and ask that she join me, tell her that I am going with or without her but that I would love for her to come along.

And zillard, I will definitely be picking up those books you mentioned, I have seen them mentioned in your thread and will definitely be giving them a read.

Thanks for the feedback!!


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

LovingHusband414 said:


> Zillard – Yeah, I am done with the begging and pleading, it has seemed to push her further away. I will table the relationship talk as well, unless it is initiated by her. What about normal, everyday chit chat? We haven’t done much of that since I left the first of the year but there are some days we seem to have a little back and forth. Should that be initiated by her as well? I’m so torn on whether to go NC unless it has to do with our son. It seems that if I did initiate normal conversation, sometimes she will go along for a little bit, other times she seems so disinterested in it. Then if I get less chatty she will throw it back at me that I don’t talk to her. Again with the back and forth that confuses the hell out of me.


As you see, initiating is hit or miss. If she initiaties chit chat, feel free to tell her all about the awesome new things you are doing. You've been to X amount of IC sessions and they are really helping you realize this and that about yourself. You are enjoying this with your buddies, you are taking up this hobby, you are passionate about this. Keep it lighthearted and positive though. Something another person would want to know more about, not something that she may feel bad about or construe as blame or pressure. 



LovingHusband414 said:


> The investigating further is not an option at the moment, we haven’t lived together since the first of the year and she has her own phone plan. The only time we do see each other is to exchange visitation with our son and those meetings are generally less than 2-3 minutes.


Unfortunate. Seems like it is very quickly becoming a co-parenting situation. Cool, firm, dispassionate. Unless you are being fun and lighthearted (which women love).



LovingHusband414 said:


> When things were going rough for us I suggested we try MC but she refused to go. She gave no real reason for not wanting to go other than “I don’t want to”.


 = "I'm done". But watch what she does more than what she says. In confused and emotional states we often say things we don't mean. Step back and observe actions.


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## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

zillard said:


> Unfortunate. Seems like it is very quickly becoming a co-parenting situation. Cool, firm, dispassionate. Unless you are being fun and lighthearted (which women love).


It definitely is becoming a co-parenting situation; it has been like that since the beginning of the separation. When we meet to exchange visitation it literally lasts less than 2 minutes. She will hand me our son, say “Talk to you later”, we say bye and she leaves. Then she will tell me that I hardly talk to her when I see her, how can I when I hardly get the chance to? A few weeks ago, there was one exchange that lasted more than a few minutes; we were being fun and lighthearted. I got kind of flirty a couple times, we were laughing and smiling and even said I Love You’s as we were leaving. I told her a week or so afterwards that I saw a different look on her face, one I haven’t seen in a while when she looked at me and it was nice. Ever since then, however, it’s been back to the short and sweet exchanges.



zillard said:


> = "I'm done". But watch what she does more than what she says. In confused and emotional states we often say things we don't mean. Step back and observe actions.


Like the exchanges I mention above? She will tell me that she loves me and misses me, but that it’s different, that she doesn’t love me like she used to and that it feels different and things will never be the same. I try to tell her no, things won’t be the same, they will be so much better, but we have to try and work on things. I know it will be practically impossible to work on things if we spend 0 time together and hardly talk. And like I mention above, whenever I try to suggest that we spend some time together, even if it’s just an hour or two, and talk more, start slow, see how it goes and build up from there, I always get/got the “I don’t know” and “we’ll see”.
How can love and feelings change and be so different in such a short amount of time? Are 3, maybe even 4 months long enough to have feelings change like that?


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

LovingHusband414 said:


> It definitely is becoming a co-parenting situation; it has been like that since the beginning of the separation. When we meet to exchange visitation it literally lasts less than 2 minutes. She will hand me our son, say “Talk to you later”, we say bye and she leaves. Then she will tell me that I hardly talk to her when I see her, how can I when I hardly get the chance to? A few weeks ago, there was one exchange that lasted more than a few minutes; we were being fun and lighthearted. I got kind of flirty a couple times, we were laughing and smiling and even said I Love You’s as we were leaving. *I told her a week or so afterwards that I saw a different look on her face, one I haven’t seen in a while when she looked at me and it was nice. *Ever since then, however, it’s been back to the short and sweet exchanges.


Don't do that. Just keep doing the things that made that visit better. 



LovingHusband414 said:


> Like the exchanges I mention above? She will tell me that she loves me and misses me, but that it’s different, that she doesn’t love me like she used to and that it feels different and things will never be the same. I try to tell her no, things won’t be the same, they will be so much better, but we have to try and work on things. I know it will be practically impossible to work on things if we spend 0 time together and hardly talk. And like I mention above, *whenever I try to suggest that we spend some time together, even if it’s just an hour or two, and talk more, start slow, see how it goes and build up from there, *I always get/got the “I don’t know” and “we’ll see”.
> How can love and feelings change and be so different in such a short amount of time? Are 3, maybe even 4 months long enough to have feelings change like that?


Don't do that either. If you want to spend more time together, do like the MC appointment. Plan an activity and only if you two are in one of those fun lighthearted exchanges tell her you are going and invite her. Don't leave any thinking or planning to her. Act. Go. If she comes along, great. If not, go have fun without her.

This really sounds like affair fog talk. And yes. 3-4 months is plenty of time for feelings to change like that... especially if there is a 3rd party involved. It was less for my X and we were together for 10 years.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

You may want to find out if there is a third person involved in the marriage. Take off work early and do some investigating especially when she leaves work. There may not be an om but in my opinion you should rule that out first because if there is you would be wasting your time in limbo separated and should just file.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

LovingHusband414 said:


> It definitely is becoming a co-parenting situation; it has been like that since the beginning of the separation. When we meet to exchange visitation it literally lasts less than 2 minutes. She will hand me our son, say “Talk to you later”, we say bye and she leaves. Then she will tell me that I hardly talk to her when I see her, how can I when I hardly get the chance to? A few weeks ago, there was one exchange that lasted more than a few minutes; we were being fun and lighthearted. I got kind of flirty a couple times, we were laughing and smiling and even said I Love You’s as we were leaving. I told her a week or so afterwards that I saw a different look on her face, one I haven’t seen in a while when she looked at me and it was nice. Ever since then, however, it’s been back to the short and sweet exchanges.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You were doing great till you told her you love her. She’s not there right now, and saying things like that will only shut down whatever good stuff is going on at the time. 

Can you use the baby as an ‘in’? When she comes to pick him up, tell her about some cute thing he did. Start a small conversation that way. Don’t expect it to become long and intimate. Keep it light and focused on the baby unless she steers it to something else. Try for small inroads, and leave the affectionate talk out of it.

Can feelings change in that short time. Sure they can. That’s why she needs to talk to her doctor.


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## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

zillard said:


> Don't do that. Just keep doing the things that made that visit better.


That visit started was with me complimenting her on how she looked. She disagreed but I said she did and she thanked me. Is complimenting her like that a good idea at this point?



zillard said:


> This really sounds like affair fog talk. And yes. 3-4 months is plenty of time for feelings to change like that... especially if there is a 3rd party involved. It was less for my X and we were together for 10 years.


Wow man, I just don’t get how in that short amount of time feelings can change that way, I guess it’s because I’ve never had an affair. Even in the situation I am in now, my love and feelings for my wife are still very much there and strong.



tom67 said:


> You may want to find out if there is a third person involved in the marriage. Take off work early and do some investigating especially when she leaves work. There may not be an om but in my opinion you should rule that out first because if there is you would be wasting your time in limbo separated and should just file.


I would love to find that out but at this moment, it would be very hard for me to do that unless she flat out told me so. She unfriended me on Facebook very soon after the separation so that makes it hard for me to look there as well. I’m definitely not going to rule the possibility of an OM out though, just hard to prove at this point.



Frostflower said:


> You were doing great till you told her you love her. She’s not there right now, and saying things like that will only shut down whatever good stuff is going on at the time.


Yeah, I didn’t mean to say that, it just came out naturally. I’m not going to lie but I have told her that I love her on a few different occasions during my begging and pleading moments, those will definitely be coming to a halt as well as her hearing that I love her, I do love her but she just won’t be hearing it.



Frostflower said:


> Can you use the baby as an ‘in’? When she comes to pick him up, tell her about some cute thing he did. Start a small conversation that way. Don’t expect it to become long and intimate. Keep it light and focused on the baby unless she steers it to something else. Try for small inroads, and leave the affectionate talk out of it.


I could definitely do that, and I think I will the next time we meet. He is at the point where every day he will do something new and exciting. Thank you for that idea!!



Frostflower said:


> Can feelings change in that short time. Sure they can. That’s why she needs to talk to her doctor.


Yeah, I have thought all along that some of these actions could be attributed to PPD, even though she says she doesn’t have it. I really wish she would talk to her Dr., but at this point she is convinced that she is fine and will not do anything that I suggest. At least that’s what she tells me, that since I left she has been pretty happy and had no stress at all.


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## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

zillard said:


> And get No More Mister Nice Guy and Married Man's Sex Life Primer. Two good books that will probably help you out regardless of how this goes down.


I ordered each one today!!


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

LovingHusband414 said:


> She unfriended me on Facebook very soon after the separation


Another red flag. She did that for a reason. 

A. She's done, man. 
B. She's hiding something.


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## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

zillard said:


> Another red flag. She did that for a reason.
> 
> A. She's done, man.
> B. She's hiding something.


At first I thought she did it out of anger, she is the type of person that will get mad and upset and react based on emotion, always has been ever since I've known her. The same thing happened when we broke up a couple times while we were dating.

So right now, is there any way that this thing is salvageable? I am finding it so hard to give up on our marriage and family as I never wanted to separate, let alone divorce. I don't know if I'm being too prideful, too desperate (like she said I was sounding) or just plain blind. Maybe I'm in the denial phase?


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

LovingHusband414 said:


> So right now, is there any way that this thing is salvageable? I am finding it so hard to give up on our marriage and family as I never wanted to separate, let alone divorce. I don't know if I'm being too prideful, too desperate (like she said I was sounding) or just plain blind. Maybe I'm in the denial phase?


It may not be about you at all.

She said you sounded desperate. You acknowledge you pleaded and begged. This is needy. Needy is not attractive. You'll need to let go. Detach. Become ok with losing her, because you very well may have already lost her.

Follow the 180. For you. To heal and get out of this funk.

If there is a 3rd party - be it a posOM or a toxic friend - you have no chance of R until they are out of the picture. 

If she has PPD you can not force her to get treatment and you have little chance of R until she does. (She may be certain she does not because she may know there is another reason for all this. Or she is in denial.) 

If neither of the above are the case, she is still emotionally detached and not attracted to you right now (I'm not talking looks) and the two books will increase your chances.


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

Investigate first. MC is a waste if there is a POSOM involved. Pull the phone companys text records. You will probably find what you need there.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Do you have a mutual friend who can access her facebook? Try that.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

I think it may be time to file for d. DO NOT tell her ahead of time. But her blocking you from her fb, bad sign bro. When she gets served you will see whether or not she wants to come back.


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## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

zillard said:


> If she has PPD you can not force her to get treatment and you have little chance of R until she does. (She may be certain she does not because she may know there is another reason for all this. Or she is in denial.)


Just out of curiosity, it's been it's been close to 7 months, does PPD last that long? Does it come and go or is it something that once it gets set it, it's there to stay?


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## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

tom67 said:


> Do you have a mutual friend who can access her facebook? Try that.


We do not. Ironically, and this probably should have been another red flag, add it to the growing list that I see now that I look back on things, but we never really had close, mutual friends. I was hardly ever around her friends and she was hardly ever around mine. When we were dating it was just her and me, hanging out or doing whatever. I got along with the few friends of hers I did meet and she got along with mine, for some reason we just never interacted with each other’s friends much. That has been the case for the entirety of the past couple years we’ve known each other.



tom67 said:


> I think it may be time to file for d. DO NOT tell her ahead of time. But her blocking you from her fb, bad sign bro. When she gets served you will see whether or not she wants to come back.


I have really been throwing this idea around, one day I’m ready to and the next I’m not. My feeling is that if she is the one that wanted the separation and wants out of the marriage, she can file. Recently when I asked her if she was going to file, she said probably and when I asked when I got the ever popular “I don’t know”. I realize this is letting her have control, so with some more thought and reflection this could easily change.

She didn’t block me from FB, just unfriended me (splitting hairs, I know), but her privacy settings don’t allow me to see much.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

LovingHusband414 said:


> I have really been throwing this idea around, one day I’m ready to and the next I’m not. *My feeling is that if she is the one that wanted the separation and wants out of the marriage, she can file.* Recently when I asked her if she was going to file, she said probably and when I asked when I got the ever popular “I don’t know”. I realize this is letting her have control, so with some more thought and reflection this could easily change.


Don't count on this happening.

LH - if you remember from my thread, my X was very vocal about being done and wanting divorce. Yet still would not file. 

It must be great to know you have someone sitting there waiting for you, wanting you, begging for your love. Why change that?


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## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

zillard said:


> Don't count on this happening.
> LH - if you remember from my thread, my X was very vocal about being done and wanting divorce. Yet still would not file.
> It must be great to know you have someone sitting there waiting for you, wanting you, begging for your love. Why change that?


Yes, I do remember seeing that from your thread, it was like I was reading about my current situation, and your thread’s title is actually what drew me to TAM. I hear the “I don’t know” all the time.

I agree, I know she feels that I am old reliable, sitting here waiting for her whenever she wants it. We have been separated for 10 weeks and I have not gotten any indication from her she wants to work on things, she’s even told me on a couple occasions she doesn't want me to call her or text her unless it has something to do with our son. Of course she says this in the middle of one of her anger outbursts. Then she’ll turn around and throw it back at me and say that I don’t talk to her or call her. I’m like really?


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

File and shake up things. Let her think you are moving on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

tom67 said:


> File and shake up things. Let her think you are moving on.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Don't file unless you really want a D or you may find you have set a ball rolling that you can't stop.


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## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

Frostflower said:


> Don't file unless you really want a D or you may find you have set a ball rolling that you can't stop.


Right now, I'm really not sure I'm ready to file. There are days that I am but I have a feeling that if I did file now and the D went forward, I would look back with regrets. If the feeling that I will have regrets goes away I will have no hesitation in filing. Even as bad as I feel things might be, I believe we can work things out. I also know that it takes two to make a marriage work and she will have to show me that she wants to work towards a R also. At the same time, I am going to wait for her to initiate those conversations about our relationship.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

Well....if you do want to R. You better go scorched earth an shock 
her out of the fog she is in. 

You clearly are a nice guy. This is not the way to be in the future.

Cool Firm Dispassionate.

If you file, she may or may not snap out of it. If you don't file, the 180 is your ticket.


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## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

GutPunch said:


> Well....if you do want to R. You better go scorched earth an shock
> her out of the fog she is in.
> 
> You clearly are a nice guy. This is not the way to be in the future.
> ...


I will definitely be doing the 180, I've tried parts of it in recent weeks but will definitely be putting more effort into it. Cool, firm and dispassionate is definitely going to be me from here in out.

When you say go scorched earth to shock her out of the fog she's in, are you referring to me being cool, firm and dispassionate? LC unless it has to do with our son or she initiates?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

When I say scorched earth I mean finding out who she has an EA/PA with. Exposing the POSOM to his family and hers. Having her served with divorce papers. Cutting her off financially. 

Then NC ... When she comes to talk and she will

Cool Firm Dispassionate She can't hurt you....You are a rock!


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

GutPunch said:


> Well....*if you do want to R. You better go scorched earth* an shock
> her out of the fog she is in.
> 
> You clearly are a nice guy. This is not the way to be in the future.
> ...





GutPunch said:


> When I say scorched earth I mean finding out who she has an EA/PA with. Exposing the POSOM to his family and hers.* Having her served with divorce papers. Cutting her off financially.
> 
> Then NC ... When she comes to talk and she will
> *
> Cool Firm Dispassionate She can't hurt you....You are a rock!


I’m confused. How would this work toward R?

As for cutting her off financially, he can’t. He is legally required to pay child support and possible spousal support.


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

This woman is having some sort of affair.
He needs to gather evidence of this. 

He's legally required to pay when the court
orders him to pay.

There will be no R when she is still involved
involved with OM.

Just my opinion though
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

GutPunch said:


> This woman is having some sort of affair.
> He needs to gather evidence of this.
> 
> He's legally required to pay when the court
> ...


He is morally required to pay child support from the day he moved out. And, if he didn't, the court will order him to pay back-owed support to that date. Supporting a child is not optional.


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

Then he should save his money and be ready
To pay the back child support.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

GutPunch said:


> Then he should save his money and be ready
> To pay the back child support.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And be morally reprehensible for not having support his child all along?


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

Please...Food shelter love

His children will not be on skid row.

If they are then I change my tune

He has got to bust the A
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

GutPunch said:


> Please...Food shelter love
> 
> His children will not be on skid row.
> 
> ...


He strikes me as a man who will fulfill his responsibilities to his child above all else.

it worries me that you seem to be advocating something else. Hope fully no-one else will see what you suggest as good advice.


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

Pay her to cheat on you.

Let's see where that gets you.

What do you suggest? MC for him
her and the affair partner. lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

GutPunch said:


> Pay her to cheat on you.
> 
> Let's see where that gets you.
> 
> ...


You must have been very badly hurt.

I’m sorry for that.


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## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

Frostflower said:


> He strikes me as a man who will fulfill his responsibilities to his child above all else.
> 
> it worries me that you seem to be advocating something else. Hope fully no-one else will see what you suggest as good advice.


I have and will continue to give her child support every month, enough to cover day care, food, diapers, clothing, any medical bills, etc. I will not give her the opportunity to say that I have neglected my responsibilities in providing for our son. Since I have him at least 50% of the time, I know he is well taken care of. I do not pay any of her bills, since she asked me to leave those are her responsibilities. I would be paying child support, married or not, so that is something that I will provide.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

LovingHusband414 said:


> I have and will continue to give her child support every month, enough to cover day care, food, diapers, clothing, any medical bills, etc. I will not give her the opportunity to say that I have neglected my responsibilities in providing for our son. Since I have him at least 50% of the time, I know he is well taken care of. I do not pay any of her bills, since she asked me to leave those are her responsibilities. I would be paying child support, married or not, so that is something that I will provide.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

Does your wife work? I saw daycare mentioned. 
So she probably works. If you have 50% of the
time then child support is not necessary. 
Split right down the middle.

Frost is trying to paint me as heartless. 
Yes I got cheated on and one thing I can 
tell you is as long as there is OM in the 
picture your marriage is toast.

You should get back into your home asap.
Find out who the EA/PA I'd with.
Expose Expose Expose

Your wife is cake eating and you are 
Plan B my friend. I don't want you to
skip your moral responsibility but you 
do need to turn up the heat.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

GutPunch said:


> Does your wife work? I saw daycare mentioned.
> So she probably works. If you have 50% of the
> time then child support is not necessary.
> Split right down the middle.
> ...


I am not trying to paint you as heartless, GP. I am concerned that others might follow your advice not to pay child support, especially when you refer to it as ‘paying her to cheat’.

I agree that there is no hope of successful R if there is a OM in the picture. I don’t agree that that is a reason not to pay child support.

I haven’t read your thread, and I am sorry if I touched on a nerve.


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

Frost

A Man needs to take care of his child.
I Agree as I have a six and three year old
with me 100% custody. My point is he knows
how to do this. I just want him to turn the
heat up that's all. Do not give her tons of
money to be single with. I know we live in a 
politically correct society but as long as the children are loved fed and cared for that's really all they need.

Not a giant monthly stipend.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

LovingHusband - is this a legal separation where child support and parenting time is formalized? Or are you just giving whatever you feel you should for child support?

Any parent required to pay child support should do so. Period. Frostflower is correct.

50/50 parenting time with two working parents means formal child support should be minimal if it is required at all. GutPunch is correct.


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

I believe nothing formal is established. 
I believe Frost is correct in the thinking 
that someone may read this and stop paying.
Not my intention.
However, he's got a cake eater and needs to
make her a little more uncomfortable.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

GutPunch said:


> However, he's got a cake eater and needs to
> make her a little more uncomfortable.


Agreed.

And also protect himself financially. If any joint accounts, I would split them, asap. Make sure she has no access to "your" money.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

And the last thing I will say on the issue is that the amount is stipulated by the courts. Both parental incomes are taken into account and the court attempts to maintain the children’s standard of living as closely as possible. Love, fed and cared for are the most important aspects, but are not the whole story. 

In order to avoid unpleasant surprises down the road (on either side), LH would be advised to talk to a lawyer. Many give a free half-hour consult. During that appointment, I was able to learn the exact amount that my H should have been paying. He complied. He owed for the three months up to that date, but, had we gone forward with D, he would not have found himself owing an even larger sum.


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

More reason to get back into the 
marital home asap.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

Frostflower said:


> And the last thing I will say on the issue is that the amount is stipulated by the courts. Both parental incomes are taken into account and the court attempts to maintain the children’s standard of living as closely as possible. Love, fed and cared for are the most important aspects, but are not the whole story.
> 
> In order to avoid unpleasant surprises down the road (on either side), LH would be advised to talk to a lawyer. Many give a free half-hour consult. During that appointment, I was able to learn the exact amount that my H should have been paying. He complied. He owed for the three months up to that date, but, had we gone forward with D, he would not have found himself owing an even larger sum.


Yes, I have researched what is used to calculate child support in my state and the amount I give her every month is close to the amount that the courts would come up with. I make a considerable amount more the she does so I was prepared to have a child support obligation and I am taking care of that.

As far as me moving back in the house, that really isn't an option for me right now. Her Mom owns the house and there is no mortgage, she was living there when we found out she was pregnant and I moved in with her before we got married. I was looking forward to us getting our own house down the road as her place never really felt like "home" to me. She asked me to leave so I respected her and moved my stuff out, the day I moved my stuff out she had taken down all of our wedding pictures so then it definitely didn't feel like home. I tried on a few different occasions to see about me coming down on a weekend or some evening to spend some family time together with our son. She said maybe sometime but that she wasn't ready for that now. That was a few weeks ago.

I know there is likely a posOM in the picture, the circumstances certainly point to that. I am also aware that if that is a case, there is no way to make our marriage work let alone try to R. That is what is so frustrating to me right now, not only is she saying she's done and doesn't think she'll be ready to work on our marriage, it is difficult for me to find out for sure if there is a posOM in the picture. She told me she isn't seeing anyone but I know there is no way she would admit that to me.

She did text me a few times this weekend. Mostly asking about our son and making arrangements for future schedules with our son. I did well, no begging or pleading, no sweet talk of any kind. Cool. Firm. Dispassionate. She did ask me how I was doing for the first time in a while as well. Still, I'm looking for actions, not words.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

GutPunch said:


> More reason to get back into the
> marital home asap.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Believe me, I would like nothing more than for that to happen. Based on what I said above, I'm all ears for any suggestions to make that happen.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

Make sure then you document that you care 
For the children 50% of the time. Go ahead and
start a journal to do this. You need to also see 
a lawyer and find out exactly what you should be 
paying in good faith with 50% custody. It shouldn't
be that much. Any way to get access to her car?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

GutPunch said:


> Make sure then you document that you care
> For the children 50% of the time. Go ahead and
> start a journal to do this. You need to also see
> a lawyer and find out exactly what you should be
> ...


I did see a lawyer and he pointed me to the calculator used to come up with a child support payment in my state, with me having our son 50% of the time. I have been keeping a journal since this past October, when I started to notice her distance and I was the one primarily caring for our child. Every day, every conversation has been documented since then, and in much more detail since I moved out.

Getting access to her car is difficult. The only time I see her and her car is when we exchange time with our son, and that is a very short meeting.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

Might want to move this thread to
Coping with Infidelity as those guys
may be able to help uncover the A.
Those guys are pros.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

zillard said:


> LovingHusband - is this a legal separation where child support and parenting time is formalized? Or are you just giving whatever you feel you should for child support?


This is not a legal separation. I mentioned that to her at the beginning but she said if we did that, we might as well file for D because it costs about the same. I’m giving her close to what would be required for child support if it were a legal separation or we were in the process of D.



zillard said:


> Agreed.
> 
> And also protect himself financially. If any joint accounts, I would split them, asap. Make sure she has no access to "your" money.


We do not have any joint accounts so she does not have access to my money.



GutPunch said:


> Might want to move this thread to Coping with Infidelity as those guys may be able to help uncover the A.
> Those guys are pros.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I will definitely look into doing that, it would help a bunch to see what they might have to say with this situation, thanks for the input, GP!!

I’m kind of struggling this morning, thinking about her and wondering how she is doing/feeling. I’m remaining strong and not texting her even though I am really wanting to. I really want to have a meaningless chit-chat conversation with her as I miss that. As hard as it to not contact her, I’m holding strong. As I mentioned above, she did text me a few times this weekend, even asked how I was doing at one point.

What scares me about the 180, and I'm not going to give up on the 180, is that she has never really been an initiator in talks about our relationship. I’m scared that the more distance and space I give her is going to further close the window for any possible R and is making it easier to continue with the posOM (if there is indeed one). Again, this could be coming from me struggling with the morning, who knows.

As GP suggested, I would really like to get back into the home, maybe not necessarily move back in, just hang out with her and spend some time together. I’m wondering if anyone has any suggestions on a plan of attack on how I could get her to do that…


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

LovingHusband414 said:


> This is not a legal separation. I mentioned that to her at the beginning but she said if we did that, we might as well file for D because it costs about the same. I’m giving her close to what would be required for child support if it were a legal separation or we were in the process of D.
> 
> 
> We do not have any joint accounts so she does not have access to my money.


Good.



LovingHusband414 said:


> As I mentioned above, she did text me a few times this weekend, even asked how I was doing at one point.


Try not to read too much into it. Her level of interest will fluctuate. When/if she really wants you back - you won't have to guess.



LovingHusband414 said:


> What scares me about the 180, and I'm not going to give up on the 180, is that she has never really been an initiator in talks about our relationship. I’m scared that the more distance and space I give her is going to further close the window for any possible R and is making it easier to continue with the posOM (if there is indeed one). Again, this could be coming from me struggling with the morning, who knows.


You are the hot and she is the cold. You've always been the initiator. How has that worked out so far? 

There is the very real possibility that your 180 could end up in D. That possibility is already here. It is highly unlikely that you initiating with her any further will result in R. 

180 + TAM + IC and you'll be in a better spot regardless of what happens.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

LH, you say that you are going to follow the 180, then you ask for ideas to help you hang out with her. 

The harsh reality is she doesn’t want to hang out with you. Respect that. If you push, you will drive her further away.

It sounds like you may be thinking of the 180 as a means to win her back. That is not the purpose. It is to help you gain the strength to deal with the situation, whatever happens.


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

Frost is spot on. 

If she returns it's on her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

zillard said:


> Try not to read too much into it. Her level of interest will fluctuate. When/if she really wants you back - you won't have to guess.


I’m not, it just kind of took me by surprise that the first thing she asked was how I was doing. This doesn’t happen very often.



zillard said:


> You are the hot and she is the cold. You've always been the initiator. How has that worked out so far?


Not well, as she has mostly seemed disinterested when I try to initiate meaningless chit chat. Not all the time but most of the time.



Frostflower said:


> LH, you say that you are going to follow the 180, then you ask for ideas to help you hang out with her.
> It sounds like you may be thinking of the 180 as a means to win her back. That is not the purpose. It is to help you gain the strength to deal with the situation, whatever happens.


I know the 180 is not meant to win her back, it’s meant to benefit me, make myself stronger and prepare me to better handle whatever happens in the future, regardless if that is R or D, and that is how I am approaching it. What I meant by that is how will she see the changes in me from doing the 180 if we have limited contact and hardly no in person interaction? By asking for ideas on how to help me hang out with her, I’m looking for ideas on how she will be able to see the changes in me from the 180. More or less brainstorming I guess...



Frostflower said:


> The harsh reality is she doesn’t want to hang out with you. Respect that. If you push, you will drive her further away.


I am respecting that, I’m done with the begging and pleading to get her to start working on us, that ball is in her court now as my attempts at this have failed. They have failed because I saw last week that my pushing has in fact pushed her further away. I told her this last week, that I will be giving her space to think about things and that I am done pursuing.


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## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

Made it through the day, had a lot of temptation to text her this morning but held strong. She texted me this afternoon asking how I was. I said I was good and asked how she was. Short and no relationship talk. Looking forward to getting No More Mr. Nice guy tomorrow and start reading.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

https://7chan.org/lit/src/Robert_Glover_-_No_More_Mr_Nice_Guy.pdf


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

LovingHusband414 said:


> Made it through the day, had a lot of temptation to text her this morning but held strong. She texted me this afternoon asking how I was. I said I was good and asked how she was. Short and no relationship talk. Looking forward to getting No More Mr. Nice guy tomorrow and start reading.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


NO NO NO

Don't answer those.


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## terrence4159 (Feb 3, 2013)

loving justread your thread, my wife (XW now) wanted the seperation 3 months after our son was born, the bar became more important. i wanted her back she was sleeping with a guy she meet at the bar. i was thinking like you she wanted seperation she will file. she didnt keep using the i dont know line. i keep on her saying do you want a D i dont know. that was her keeping plan B (me) strung along till plan A (new husband) committed. 

so i woke up one day got a tattoo of a knife sticking out of my back with her name in it (avatar photo) and filed for D myself. your kid will be fine mine is 9yrs old now and a normal 9 yr old. we had 50/50 at first no child support either way, now i have him 75% of the time no im not asking for child support.


if you want to save your marriage you have to be willing to lose it. i say file for D and dont let her know.


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## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

terrence4159 said:


> so i woke up one day got a tattoo of a knife sticking out of my back with her name in it (avatar photo) and filed for D myself. your kid will be fine mine is 9yrs old now and a normal 9 yr old. we had 50/50 at first no child support either way, now i have him 75% of the time no im not asking for child support.
> 
> if you want to save your marriage you have to be willing to lose it. i say file for D and dont let her know.


I do have days where I feel like I'm ready to file, then I have days where I'm not ready to.

If you don't mind me asking, how far into your separation did you decide it was time to file?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

ReGroup said:


> https://7chan.org/lit/src/Robert_Glover_-_No_More_Mr_Nice_Guy.pdf


Thanks ReGroup!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

LovingHusband414 said:


> Made it through the day, had a lot of temptation to text her this morning but held strong. She texted me this afternoon asking how I was. I said I was good and asked how she was. Short and no relationship talk. Looking forward to getting No More Mr. Nice guy tomorrow and start reading.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Checking in on plan B to see if he's still around. Did you respond right away? don't make yourself too available.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

Remember - she thinks you are desperate. No need to confirm that.


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## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

zillard said:


> Checking in on plan B to see if he's still around. Did you respond right away? don't make yourself too available.


It wasn't right away, I was in a meeting then responded when I got out.

When I responded she immediately said "she was doing good and that she couldn't remember why she texted me lol", then she remembered and said she was going to be late meeting to pick up our son.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

zillard said:


> Remember - she thinks you are desperate. No need to confirm that.


Yeah, she hasn't seen any desperation from me in close to a week now. I haven't initiated any texting or calls or anything and haven't replied to her texts within a minute of getting them like before.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

LovingHusband414 said:


> Yeah, she hasn't seen any desperation from me in close to a week now. I haven't initiated any texting or calls or anything and haven't replied to her texts within a minute of getting them like before.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And now she's texting about your well being. 

See what we mean?


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## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

zillard said:


> And now she's texting about your well being.
> 
> See what we mean?


Yes, Obi-Wan!! (Thought the Star Wars reference was proper there)

And as hard as it is, I will continue to sit back, let her initiate and by no means start begging or pleading, no desperation!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

Had a much better day emotionally today. Didn't have the temptation to text and see how W is doing. She did text me again this afternoon saying he and asking how I was. Didn't immediately reply but then did, said I was good and asked how she was. Then we talked about a schedule for our some over the next couple weeks or so. Kept it cool and firm.

I can tell there are gonna be good days and bad days so it was nice to be in a better place emotionally today.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

Having a rough time today, I spent the evening with one of my best friends and his wife last night, hung out and had a few beers, ate some pizza and watched some sports. I have’t seen them or talked to them much since my separation started so it was good to catch up. They asked how things have been so I opened up and told them. Towards the end of the evening, it pretty much turned into a bash session for them on my W, how neither of them has thought she is right for me, how she has never been respectful of me and everything was/is always about her. How they hate seeing me with someone that treats me like crap and does not reciprocate the love and affection that I give and how miserable and unhappy it has made me over the last year.

It was tough to hear, some of the things they were saying, but I think they were things I needed to hear. They also told me that I have let her behave in this way, not putting my foot down and allowing her to act in the manner she does. They said I am co-dependent and I “fall” for someone really fast, which is true. I have known I have these traits for a few years now and through a couple previous relationships over the course of the last 5 years. They way they said it to me just hit me in a different way and it’s been tough to get going today.

I got my copy of No More Mr. Nice Guy so I will be starting that tonight. After last night, looking back on my relationship over the last year and a half or so, I see everything my friends were saying last night. How I gave, gave, gave and my W took, took, took.

Ugh, good days, bad days; strikes and gutters; ups and downs.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

The best characterization I have seen of full-bloom codependence is that the codependent partner is "secretly seething"

We lose our power by letting people bulldoze our boundaries and we give til there's nothing left - all with the expectations that someone will appreciate the effort.

When they don't, the codependent gets angry.


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## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

Conrad said:


> The best characterization I have seen of full-bloom codependence is that the codependent partner is "secretly seething"
> 
> We lose our power by letting people bulldoze our boundaries and we give til there's nothing left - all with the expectations that someone will appreciate the effort.
> 
> When they don't, the codependent gets angry.


And I can see myself in this scenario. She has told me one of the big reasons we are where we are is that I acted mad all the time. And I can see where she thought that. Whenever I tried to give her affection only to be rejected time and time again, it started to wear on me. So I would try harder and harder. Yet after more rejection it did start to make me mad that my wife seemed in no way interested in my love and affection.

Then the emotional distance started, so again, I try harder and harder to do things to fix that. Buy her gifts, do all the grocery shopping, do chores, cook anything I could to show her that I am in and will do anything to take care of her and make her happy. When it felt like she didn't appreciate anything I was doing, it upset me. Enough of this building up month after month probably did make me mad and I'm sure it was visible in my demeanor.

Fear leads to anger...anger leads to hate...hate leads to suffering


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

LovingHusband414 said:


> Fear leads to anger...anger leads to hate...hate leads to suffering


But, in this particular subforum, suffering leads to growth.

Kissing your wife's ass won't get you respect. And, a woman isn't able to love a man she doesn't respect.


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## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

Conrad said:


> But, in this particular subforum, suffering leads to growth.


And I am definitely feeling that I have started this phase.



Conrad said:


> Kissing your wife's ass won't get you respect. And, a woman isn't able to love a man she doesn't respect.


I don't know that I kissed her ass much, I'm sure I did some, but it was mostly doing anything that she asked, never saying no to her. It was always

Her: "Will you get this or that?" 
Me: "Yes, dear"

Her: "Jump"
Me: "How high?"

I can totally see her respect in me went down a few months before baby and definitely after baby was born.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

LovingHusband414 said:


> And I am definitely feeling that I have started this phase.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know that I kissed her ass much,


Read the following from 50,000 feet and tell me what it sounds like:

_*I try harder and harder to do things to fix that. Buy her gifts, do all the grocery shopping, do chores, cook anything I could to show her that I am in and will do anything to take care of her and make her happy*_


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## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Read the following from 50,000 feet and tell me what it sounds like:
> 
> _*I try harder and harder to do things to fix that. Buy her gifts, do all the grocery shopping, do chores, cook anything I could to show her that I am in and will do anything to take care of her and make her happy*_


It sounds like I'm kissing her ass


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

LovingHusband414 said:


> It sounds like I'm kissing her ass


You've taken your first step into a larger world


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## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

Conrad said:


> The best characterization I have seen of full-bloom codependence is that the codependent partner is "secretly seething"
> 
> We lose our power by letting people bulldoze our boundaries and we give til there's nothing left - all with the expectations that someone will appreciate the effort.
> 
> When they don't, the codependent gets angry.


Wow. This is sooooo scarily precisely what happened with my H. He tolerated and resented instead of setting a boundary and rejecting my unacceptable behaviour. Thank you for this insight. I am learning a lot, whether or not my marriage turns out to be salvageable. 

Best,- A12


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## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

Conrad said:


> You've taken your first step into a larger world


What is required for steps 2..3..etc.?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Awakening2012 said:


> Wow. This is sooooo scarily precisely what happened with my H. He tolerated and resented instead of setting a boundary and rejecting my unacceptable behaviour. Thank you for this insight. I am learning a lot, whether or not my marriage turns out to be salvageable.
> 
> Best,- A12


Your marriage may not be. That's not up to you.

But, YOU are completely salvageable.

That, I can guarantee.

Because, that is entirely up to you.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

LovingHusband414 said:


> What is required for steps 2..3..etc.?


Love yourself enough to eliminate #3's.


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## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

Day 3 of NC, the past two days weren't too bad but today has been tougher, she's been on my mind and the temptation to text her and ask how her day is going and how she is doing is strong today...


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## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

Don't contact her -- when a thought of her pops into your head, bless her in your heart and let that thought go. Put your focus on something else. You can do this!


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

LovingHusband414 said:


> Day 3 of NC, the past two days weren't too bad but today has been tougher, she's been on my mind and the temptation to text her and ask how her day is going and how she is doing is strong today...


Do you have a gym membership?


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## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Do you have a gym membership?


Not at the moment, I'm going to start looking into that this weekend or next week.


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## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

I think what's mostly been going through my mind the past day and a half or so is that she has told me 3-4 times over the past couple months that she is going to file, yet she hasn't. One time it was "I'm probably going to file this week", that was over a month ago and still nothing. Not that I'm waiting around for it but if she is so sure that she wants that, why drag her feet? She told me early last week she was probably going to file, still nothing


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

LovingHusband414 said:


> I think what's mostly been going through my mind the past day and a half or so is that she has told me 3-4 times over the past couple months that she is going to file, yet she hasn't. One time it was "I'm probably going to file this week", that was over a month ago and still nothing. Not that I'm waiting around for it but if she is so sure that she wants that, why drag her feet? She told me early last week she was probably going to file, still nothing


Let it go.

I believe one of the national healthclub chains has a special rate of $10.00/month with no binding contracts.

Find out about that and when you have these thoughts, go there and knock yourself senseless.


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## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Let it go.


Yes, something that I cannot control so don't let it control me. Gone.

Keep my concentration here and now, where it belongs, be mindful of the future, but not at the expense of the moment.


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## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

OMG, same situation here, and it really messes with my head, too! Of course it is upsetting, perfectly normal to feel that way! It is as if they enjoy twisting the knife -- it's the worst, and coming up on a year of this distancing, rejection and flip-flopping I am ready to file myself if he doesn't. Have you ever considered filing yourself? I feel your pain -- hang in there!!!!

Best, A12


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## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

Awakening2012 said:


> OMG, same situation here, and it really messes with my head, too! Of course it is upsetting, perfectly normal to feel that way! It is as if they enjoy twisting the knife -- it's the worst, and coming up on a year of this distancing, rejection and flip-flopping I am ready to file myself if he doesn't. Have you ever considered filing yourself? I feel your pain -- hang in there!!!!
> 
> Best, A12


It definitely does suck!! To me it's like sh*t or get off the pot!! And you have been going through this for a year?? If you don't' mind me asking, how often do you all talk? I guess I haven't read your back story yet...

I have thought about filing myself, much more so in the last week or two. I go back and forth on it, part of me feels like if I do I will regret it, then I feel like it's time for me to take control of this situation for once. Throughout the history of our relationship, I haven't "manned" up on too many things, always did what I thought "she wanted me to" (Nice Guy anyone?? )

It's amazing that a couple chapters in to No More Mr. Nice Guy I saw some of those traits in myself.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

LovingHusband414 said:


> It definitely does suck!! To me it's like sh*t or get off the pot!! And you have been going through this for a year?? If you don't' mind me asking, how often do you all talk? I guess I haven't read your back story yet...
> 
> I have thought about filing myself, much more so in the last week or two. I go back and forth on it, part of me feels like if I do I will regret it, then I feel like it's time for me to take control of this situation for once. Throughout the history of our relationship, I haven't "manned" up on too many things, always did what I thought "she wanted me to" (Nice Guy anyone?? )
> 
> It's amazing that a couple chapters in to No More Mr. Nice Guy I saw some of those traits in myself.


The whole "covert contract" thing is the most insidious.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

One more thing.

You're not ready to file.

So don't.

Work on you.


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## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

Conrad said:


> The whole "covert contract" thing is the most insidious.


Looking back I think her and I had a lot of those...


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

LovingHusband414 said:


> Looking back I think her and I had a lot of those...


We're taught from the cradle to be nice.

But, we're not taught how to be nice in a way that preserves our own personal power.


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## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

Just got a couple texts from her, short and strictly business...I haven't replied yet


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

LovingHusband414 said:


> Just got a couple texts from her, short and strictly business...I haven't replied yet


Reply tomorrow.

You're busy this evening.


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## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

In the beginning of the separation -- the first few months of which I experienced the most searing emotional pain of my life -- he would call or get together maybe once a week, like trying to "date" I guess? Then it became just the occasional email or call checking in, and he tried to be helpful to me on the pragmatic challenges of the real estate and financial dealings to make supporting two residences more tenable. Only rarely have I been able to have a meaningful, honest discussion about what we are going through and what to do about it, but those are discussions that should have taken place in MC, which he has refused. I would say right now contact is quite limited, recently just on the business of tax returns. Unless a miracle turns things around, it is time to end this...and accept that it is over. And begin a fresh new chapter!


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## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

Awakening2012 said:


> Only rarely have I been able to have a meaningful, honest discussion about what we are going through and what to do about it, but those are discussions that should have taken place in MC, which he has refused.


Oh wow, exact same deal with me and my W!!! She refused counseling and any time I tried to talk with about our marriage, it was always me communicating and her just sitting there, usually with her eyes on the TV or looking elsewhere. This is when I suggested the counseling and it was immediately shot down.

Throughout our whole separation we haven’t had a meaningful, honest discussion about what we are going through and what to do about it, it was frustrating but now I know that I can’t push that on her, it’s her choice and I can’t make that decision for her. I’ll work on me and maybe one day she will see that I am taking care of myself to better myself for future relationships, being with her or someone else.



Awakening2012 said:


> I would say right now contact is quite limited, recently just on the business of tax returns. Unless a miracle turns things around, it is time to end this...and accept that it is over. And begin a fresh new chapter!


Same here, it’s either tax stuff or anything relating to our son, that’s it. I honestly don’t know where her head is at, she has been so back and forth during our separation, but that’s not my problem. After working to better myself, maybe I decide it’s time to take control and end this thing, who knows, time will tell.


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## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

Hi LH - 

I admire your terrific attitude and fortitude! I'm in the same boat with working on myself, tending to my life and will probably the marriage soon if he does not. I probably will look back and wish I had done it a lot sooner. 

Hang in there and take care.

Best Regards,- A12


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## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

Awakening2012 said:


> I admire your terrific attitude and fortitude! I'm in the same boat with working on myself, tending to my life and will probably the marriage soon if he does not. I probably will look back and wish I had done it a lot sooner.


Yeah, I had a pretty good weekend, my family was up so it was nice to get some time with them. I was thinking about my W all weekend, wishing she was there with us but then realized she has had every opportunity to be there with us, it was her decision to give up that opportunity so her loss!!



Awakening2012 said:


> Hang in there and take care.


We got this, I won't lie she's been on my mind all morning. We have hardly talked in the last week and that's the longest we've gone without talking, it's pretty hard on me. Take it day by day, distract ourselves when we need it and we'll get through it!!


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## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

So I’m going through my desk over my lunch hour and I notice some old love notes my W had given to me over the past few months before separating, one of them as recently as two weeks before the separation. Of course, memories start flooding into my head, the urge to text her and ask how she’s doing pops up, I stay the course and try to concentrate on something else.

Then it creeps into my head that since I have pulled back over the last couple weeks, that since I don’t initiate conversation and don’t reply to her texts right that minute like she's used to, she will most likely get the idea in her head that I don’t want to be with her anymore, that I am not interested in R or even seeing if R is something that I want, when all I am doing at the moment is working on myself.

I know, based on the history of our relationship and knowing her, that IF we do talk about us again, that she will bring up something like “you don’t even talk to me anymore”, “you sound like you’re doing just fine without me” and so on, trying to push the blame onto me for being distant as of late.

What’s the best way to handle these conversations?


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

Can a woman respect a man who wants to stay with a woman who treats him this way? 

"I'm sorry you feel that way. I'm not ok investing emotionally with someone who does not reciprocate."


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

Do not contact her. 

The only thing you get is hurt and disappointment. 

If she wants to R, she'll let you know.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

GutPunch said:


> Do not contact her.
> 
> The only thing you get is hurt and disappointment.
> 
> If she wants to R, she'll let you know.


She'll never miss you if you won't go away.


----------



## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

GutPunch said:


> Do not contact her.
> 
> The only thing you get is hurt and disappointment.
> 
> If she wants to R, she'll let you know.


I haven't contacted her, each time I get the urge to text her I immediately switch focus to something else. She is going to have to come to me.


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## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

So yesterday afternoon, W texts asking how our son is doing. After waiting a little bit, I reply and tell her how he’s doing and we have a couple texts back and forth about him.

Later on she texts and asks about a rash he had a few weeks ago (it has been fine for 2-3 weeks now), I wait and then reply that it’s still all clear and good.

Immediately after that, she texts to tell me about some random thing of mine she found in her desk. I reply and say that’s funny. She says yeah, and that she took it out and threw it away. Then immediately said ha ha, just kidding.

It kind of seemed to me like she was fishing for some boring ol’ chit chat, I don’t know, I could be wrong. Maybe the past two weeks of me not initiating any conversation is starting to make her wonder and miss me a little bit? I'm trying to not read a whole lot into it but I thought it was kind of random and out of the blue.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Stay at 50,000 feet and observe.


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## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Stay at 50,000 feet and observe.


Absolutely, I'm there. That's what made me think she was maybe fishing for some chit chat. Why else would she tell me about some random thing in her desk?

Keep observing...


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

LovingHusband414 said:


> Absolutely, I'm there. That's what made me think she was maybe fishing for some chit chat. Why else would she tell me about some random thing in her desk?
> 
> Keep observing...


She won't miss you if you don't go away.


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## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

Getting ready for my first IC session since starting my forum and reading No More Mr. Nice Guy, I'm looking forward to this!!


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

Dive in, man!


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

How was IC, LH?


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## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

Frostflower said:


> How was IC, LH?


It went great, thanks for asking!! She is totally on board with my new direction and said she could tell a difference in my demeanor and my attitude. Most importantly she said that no matter how this turns out, I will be better. She hadn't heard of No More Mr. Nice Guy but she wrote it down and was going to look into it, then she recommended me reading Codependent No More.

Then the funny thing happened, W texts almost immediately afterwards asking how I was and about the plan to pick up our son later in the evening (she knew the answer), I waited a bit then replied with a simple yes.

A couple hours later, she texts and says you really don’t like talking to me anymore do you? I waited and said that I do like talking to her, that I always have but that I’ve been busy. She replied with ok, just curious. Now I don’t know if I went too far in my response or not, but I can definitely see that my distance and change in the way I text her is having an effect, she’s starting to think about it and maybe her soda machine isn't working as well as it used to. Stay at 50,000 ft. and observing…


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

Awesome! CD No More is a good one too. 

As for the text, maybe something like: 

"I'm not ok with pretending everything is ok"


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

LovingHusband414 said:


> It went great, thanks for asking!! She is totally on board with my new direction and said she could tell a difference in my demeanor and my attitude. Most importantly she said that no matter how this turns out, I will be better. She hadn't heard of No More Mr. Nice Guy but she wrote it down and was going to look into it, then she recommended me reading Codependent No More.
> 
> Then the funny thing happened, W texts almost immediately afterwards asking how I was and about the plan to pick up our son later in the evening (she knew the answer), I waited a bit then replied with a simple yes.
> 
> A couple hours later, she texts and says you really don’t like talking to me anymore do you? I waited and said that I do like talking to her, that I always have but that I’ve been busy. She replied with ok, just curious. Now I don’t know if I went too far in my response or not, but I can definitely see that my distance and change in the way I text her is having an effect, she’s starting to think about it and maybe her soda machine isn't working as well as it used to. Stay at 50,000 ft. and observing…


Good man

You're on the road now.


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## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Good man
> 
> You're on the road now.


When is a good time to start entertaining a little meaningless chit chat with her? It's obvious she's fishing at that. I just don't know when I will be able to tell it's a good time to engage in that.


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

She will make it happen. I let my WAW text until she was blue in the face. Never answered the phone. Finally she came to work and called me an a$$ hole and stormed out. I didn't even flinch. No reaction. Next day I got a long text begging to talk. I finally texted back. I told her not now call me when I am home from work and have the kids in bed.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

GutPunch said:


> She will make it happen. I let my WAW text until she was blue in the face. Never answered the phone. Finally she came to work and called me an a$$ hole and stormed out. I didn't even flinch. No reaction. Next day I got a long text begging to talk. I finally texted back. I told her not now call me when I am home from work and have the kids in bed.


Punch has lived this.

Listen to him.

She needs to want it. Do not be too quick to re-engage or she'll write off missing you as "temporary"


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## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

So this afternoon, we met up to look at some tax stuff, it was the first time we have physically seen each other since I started this thread a couple weeks ago. As soon as I got there I got a nervous feeling and started shaking, I don't know if it was from being nervous or what. She even noticed and asked why I was shaking. I said I'm really not sure.

Other than that it was a short and civil meeting. But I'm curious as to why I seemed to have gotten so nervous I started shaking enough for her to notice??


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

Anxiety....Codependence rearing its ugly head.

You wanting to control what is uncontrollable. 

Hang in there but if you cannot handle meeting with her yet
then avoid it like the plague.


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## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

GutPunch said:


> Anxiety....Codependence rearing its ugly head.
> 
> You wanting to control what is uncontrollable.
> 
> ...


Could that anxiety come from having such strong feelings and attraction for her and not being able to do anything about it?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

LovingHusband414 said:


> Could that anxiety come from having such strong feelings and attraction for her and not being able to do anything about it?


How about from not loving yourself enough that you feel nothing but fear about losing her


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## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

Hi LH414 - 

This stuff is just so fraught with some of the deepest most intense emotions we will ever feel, so it is natural to feel nervous seeing her. Don't be too hard on yourself if she noticed you shaking -- it sounds like the meeting went fine otherwise. As to the reason for the shaking, I can only guess it is all the pent up feelings and emotions you associate with her and your history together. 

I had a similar out-of-body experience meeting up with my H in a public place, shortly after we were first separated. I could see him in the crowd as I walked toward him, before he saw me, and it was like a camera zooming in and darkness closing in all around me blocking everythign else from my vision. Someone who for so long was so close to me he felt almost a part of me, and now that connection is severed, it just feels so surreal. That's the only way I can explain it. It is a rollercoaster of emotions, for sure, but I'm told it gets easier and I hope that's true!

Cheers, - A12


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## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

Conrad said:


> How about from not loving yourself enough that you feel nothing but fear about losing her


OK, Conrad -- what you said. Thanks!


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## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

Conrad said:


> How about from not loving yourself enough that you feel nothing but fear about losing her


I can definitely see it coming from this as deep down I still have hope of an R...after I work on myself first though. I do still have a fear of losing her and us going through D, even though nothing has happened on that front yet. Obviously I'm not ready to start rolling with the D process yet...


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

LovingHusband414 said:


> I can definitely see it coming from this as deep down I still have hope of an R...after I work on myself first though. I do still have a fear of losing her and us going through D, even though nothing has happened on that front yet. Obviously I'm not ready to start rolling with the D process yet...


You've got plenty of company.

If you have some time, click on post #1 of ReGroup's thread or Zillard's thread and walk with them through the process.


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## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

Conrad said:


> You've got plenty of company.
> 
> If you have some time, click on post #1 of ReGroup's thread or Zillard's thread and walk with them through the process.


I will do that!!

She did say it was funny that I was nervous and shaking, that I always do it and she doesn't have a clue why. I'm guessing that telling her my co-dependence reared it's ugly head and the fear of losing her wouldn't be the best answer for that??

She also said afterwards it was good to see me.


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

LovingHusband414 said:


> I will do that!!
> 
> She did say it was funny that I was nervous and shaking, that I always do it and she doesn't have a clue why. I'm guessing that telling her my co-dependence reared it's ugly head and the fear of losing her wouldn't be the best answer for that??
> 
> ...


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

LovingHusband414 said:


> I will do that!!
> 
> She did say it was funny that I was nervous and shaking, that I always do it and she doesn't have a clue why. I'm guessing that telling her my co-dependence reared it's ugly head and the fear of losing her wouldn't be the best answer for that??
> 
> She also said afterwards it was good to see me.


I would tell her you were shaking because you didn't want to get caught checking out her ass.


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## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

Conrad said:


> I would tell her you were shaking because you didn't want to get caught checking out her ass.


Ha!! Love that, I will use that next time!!

What exactly is a fitness test?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

LovingHusband414 said:


> Ha!! Love that, I will use that next time!!
> 
> What exactly is a fitness test?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Specifically:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/18347-fitness-tests.html

More generally:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/18181-man-up-nice-guy-reference.html


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## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

Thanks RG and C, I'll check that out.

Is there ever a good time to discuss how co dependent I became and how my "nice guy" traits affected our relationship?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

LovingHusband414 said:


> Thanks RG and C, I'll check that out.
> 
> Is there ever a good time to discuss how co dependent I became and how my "nice guy" traits affected our relationship?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That would be after she throws herself into your arms and talks about how different things are between you now.

Let's call that Step 12 of the program.

We can't rush the ending.

Remember, women don't like it much when we're premature.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Conrad said:


> That would be after she throws herself into your arms and talks about how different things are between you now.
> 
> Let's call that Step 12 of the program.
> 
> ...


Hah! Good one, Conrad.


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## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

So I think I’m having a “Nice Guy” moment of weakness. Since I last posted, the only contact was son related on Saturday, very brief. I went to meet her to pick up our son yesterday and instead of her being there with our son, her mom was. I asked her mom, “W couldn’t make it?”, she shook her head no and had a puzzled look on her face, I asked her if W was ok, she said no and I asked what’s wrong. She said she’d gotten sick earlier and that some issues from a prior health issue had surfaced. I talked with her mom about it for a couple minutes then left with my son.

After I left, I sent W a text saying I had heard she’s not feeling well and that if there’s anything I can do to let me know. I know, I went right back into caretaking mode. W texted me this morning thanking me so much and that she appreciates that. I asked how she was feeling, she said about the same and we had a little dialogue about that, then I once again told her that seriously, if there’s anything I can do don’t hesitate to ask (I know, 2x4 me). She said ok and thanked me again.

So I’ve done pretty well with the NC unless it relates to our son, last week I thought I was starting to see it working with her making the statement/question that I didn’t like talking to her anymore and that she wanted to talk on the phone sometime, chit chat a little. I obviously still care about her well being, she is the mother to my son but I can tell it could be hard for me to not have my caretaking mode shift into gear when I hear she isn’t feeling well.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

LovingHusband414 said:


> So I think I’m having a “Nice Guy” moment of weakness. Since I last posted, the only contact was son related on Saturday, very brief.  I went to meet her to pick up our son yesterday and instead of her being there with our son, her mom was. I asked her mom, “W couldn’t make it?”, she shook her head no and had a puzzled look on her face, I asked her if W was ok, she said no and I asked what’s wrong. She said she’d gotten sick earlier and that some issues from a prior health issue had surfaced. I talked with her mom about it for a couple minutes then left with my son.
> 
> After I left, I sent W a text saying I had heard she’s not feeling well and that if there’s anything I can do to let me know. I know, I went right back into caretaking mode. W texted me this morning thanking me so much and that she appreciates that. I asked how she was feeling, she said about the same and we had a little dialogue about that, then I once again told her that seriously, if there’s anything I can do don’t hesitate to ask (I know, 2x4 me). She said ok and thanked me again.
> 
> So I’ve done pretty well with the NC unless it relates to our son, last week I thought I was starting to see it working with her making the statement/question that I didn’t like talking to her anymore and that she wanted to talk on the phone sometime, chit chat a little. I obviously still care about her well being, she is the mother to my son but I can tell it could be hard for me to not have my caretaking mode shift into gear when I hear she isn’t feeling well.


Seriously, if we hear that the other parent of our child is sick and we can’t ask how they are feeling, something is seriously wrong in or world. You’ve offered to help twice, that may be where you went too far. But asking after her health....we are human beings after all.


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## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

I agree, there should be an NC exception for when the spouse's health is concerned. That is not care-taking, it is human concern and decency. I hope she is recovering and will be fine.


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## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

Frostflower said:


> Seriously, if we hear that the other parent of our child is sick and we can’t ask how they are feeling, something is seriously wrong in or world.


I agree wholeheartedly! 



Frostflower said:


> You’ve offered to help twice, that may be where you went too far. But asking after her health....we are human beings after all.


This is probably true, I think it's the "Nice Guy" in me trying to come to her rescue. I should have let it be after the first statement.

I just hope that I didn't take a step back with the progress I've made over the past couple of weeks.


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## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

Awakening2012 said:


> I agree, there should be an NC exception for when the spouse's health is concerned. That is not care-taking, it is human concern and decency. I hope she is recovering and will be fine.


I was kind of thinking the same thing. As I said above, I probably should have only told her once that if she needed anything to let me know. I'm tempted to ask her again today how she's feeling but I don't want to overdo it. I guess it's tricky on how much is too much.

I was away for a few days and just started to get caught up on your thread A12, I hope you are doing OK!!


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

You did good. No lumber required. She said she is fine that's the end of it. 

I guarantee if my wife got ill during my 180 days I would have been concerned as well.


More than once is too much.


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## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

Just finished No More Mr. Nice Guy, thank you guys for turning me on to that, I see myself a lot in that book and have started working on those traits since starting it a couple weeks ago.

I now have Codependent No More and Married Man Sex Life Primer 2011, any suggestions on which one I should tackle next??


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

LovingHusband414 said:


> Just finished No More Mr. Nice Guy, thank you guys for turning me on to that, I see myself a lot in that book and have started working on those traits since starting it a couple weeks ago.
> 
> I now have Codependent No More and Married Man Sex Life Primer 2011, any suggestions on which one I should tackle next??


Anthony DeMello's "Awareness"

http://www.arvindguptatoys.com/arvindgupta/tonyawareness.pdf


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## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Anthony DeMello's "Awareness"
> 
> http://www.arvindguptatoys.com/arvindgupta/tonyawareness.pdf


Thanks C, I'll get on that! After this one, which of the two I previously mentioned would be better to get after?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

LovingHusband414 said:


> Thanks C, I'll get on that! After this one, which of the two I previously mentioned would be better to get after?


CD No More


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

Also: Rebuilding After Your Relationship Ends (3rd edition)


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## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

Had a good IC session today, talked about events over the last week, how W made the comment last week stating/asking that I really don’t like talking to her anymore do I? IC agreed that me pulling back and being cool, firm and dispassionate seems to be making W think a little bit.

Yesterday W text me saying Good Morning, I waited and text her back saying Good Morning to her. She asked how I was doing; I said good and asked how she was doing. Said she’s feeling a little better but still sore hurting a little bit. We texted a little bit about that, nothing fancy.

Then I had a moment of weakness a little while later, we were just having a lighthearted text conversation, then I told her I kind of wanted to see her. She said that’s fine but that she’s not sure what she really thinks about that, that she’s not sure what she’s feeling about things yet. I found this interesting as 3 weeks ago she was set on probably filing for D, now she’s back to the not sure what she’s feeling and when I asked if she’s feeling differently than she did a few weeks ago she said she wasn't sure.

I have been good at letting her initiate the contact the last few weeks and keeping my responses cool, firm and dispassionate, concentrating on working on me and not worrying about our relationship. The relationship will come in time, either to continue or end. What gets me is that it she’s wavered back to the “I don’t know” from saying things will never be the same and she’s going to file. She and I haven’t fought in over a month and the text conversations we have had have been lighthearted and nice, even laughing back and forth some.

I know I need to get back to 50,000 ft. and observe actions, not words. Just seemed I had a little moment of weakness yesterday; although I didn’t beg and plead at all, I was curious as to how she was feeling about our situation.


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## help2013 (Apr 4, 2013)

*New post*

How can I start a new post?


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

LovingHusband414 said:


> Had a good IC session today, talked about events over the last week, how W made the comment last week stating/asking that I really don’t like talking to her anymore do I? IC agreed that me pulling back and being cool, firm and dispassionate seems to be making W think a little bit.
> 
> Yesterday W text me saying Good Morning, I waited and text her back saying Good Morning to her. She asked how I was doing; I said good and asked how she was doing. Said she’s feeling a little better but still sore hurting a little bit. We texted a little bit about that, nothing fancy.
> 
> ...


You do know that these little nuggets she is throwing at you are tests.

And you are failing every single one of them. 

You are still focused on her and how she is feeling. 

Focus on you and don't answer the How R U bs texts


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## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

GutPunch said:


> You do know that these little nuggets she is throwing at you are tests.
> 
> And you are failing every single one of them.
> 
> ...


Tests for what exactly?

I have been focused on me for the last few weeks, granted yesterday I had a moment where I was focused on how she is feeling about things, I realized that and know I need to keep focusing on me.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

Testing your resolve.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/18347-fitness-tests.html


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

Read the link Zillard just posted.


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## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

zillard said:


> Testing your resolve.


I started reading that thread on fitness tests, I guess I'm confused how her asking how I am doing is testing my resolve? I used to immediately text her back, which I don't do with these anymore, now I wait and keep the response short, "I'm good! You?". If she says something to me in which she knows and expects to get a rise out of me as a result, she will see that soda machine button doesn't work anymore. However, she hasn't said or done anything to see that that button is not producing the Coke anymore.

Aside from a few texts yesterday, she hasn't seen me beg or plead or bring up anything regarding our relationship or the situation we are in.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

Good morning, how are you? = Are you still there for me, even though I am not there for you? 

Are you still available? As my plan B. Yes? Good. I feel better about what I'm doing to you, knowing you will always be waiting for me... no matter how you are treated.


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

Have you discovered the affair yet? I think she has another man. You need to find out who it is. We keep telling you the same thing over and over again. Stop communicating with her. No chit chat. You are moving on with your awesome life. 

Do the detective work and find out who she is involved with. If there is another man, it will determine your best course of action. It is essential you find this out.


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## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

zillard said:


> Good morning, how are you? = Are you still there for me, even though I am not there for you?
> 
> Are you still available? As my plan B. Yes? Good. I feel better about what I'm doing to you, knowing you will always be waiting for me... no matter how you are treated.


Okay, that hits a little closer to home...well put.

It's kind of funny though, in my IC session today, she said that she didn't see think that I am her Plan B, she seems to think W is dealing more with depression and health issues. Now granted, this could be the case and I will by no means be a Plan B.

I also found it interesting to here the IC say she didn't see any problem with me calling W every now and then, to keep the conversation short but end it on my terms..."I've got to go, wanted to see how things are going", etc.


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

LovingHusband414 said:


> Okay, that hits a little closer to home...well put.
> 
> It's kind of funny though, in my IC session today, she said that she didn't see think that I am her Plan B, she seems to think W is dealing more with depression and health issues. Now granted, this could be the case and I will by no means be a Plan B.
> 
> I also found it interesting to here the IC say she didn't see any problem with me calling W every now and then, to keep the conversation short but end it on my terms..."I've got to go, wanted to see how things are going", etc.



Write me a check and I'll tell you what you want to here too.


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## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

GutPunch said:


> Have you discovered the affair yet? I think she has another man. You need to find out who it is. We keep telling you the same thing over and over again. Stop communicating with her. No chit chat. You are moving on with your awesome life.
> 
> Do the detective work and find out who she is involved with. If there is another man, it will determine your best course of action. It is essential you find this out.


I have not found this out, currently it would be very hard to discover if she is involved with anyone. Before we separated, I did some discover the text history with a couple numbers but never saw or read any of these texts. At this point, really the only option I have to discover if she is involved with anyone else would be to hire a PI.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Do you have the resources for that?


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## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Do you have the resources for that?


Resources for what?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

LovingHusband414 said:


> Resources for what?


It means are you willing to pay a private investigator to find out


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## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

Conrad said:


> It means are you willing to pay a private investigator to find out


I am willing to pay for that but right now do not have the extra $$ to do so.


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

Do you still have the numbers? Type them in facebook and spokeo. This is how I blew the lid off my wife's affair.

How many texts were there? If it's a bunch, that's a big red flag.


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## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

GutPunch said:


> Do you still have the numbers? Type them in facebook and spokeo. This is how I blew the lid off my wife's affair.
> 
> How many texts were there? If it's a bunch, that's a big red flag.


I do not have the numbers. At the time I did find out who the numbers belonged to though.

The only two I grew suspicious of were an average of 11-15 texts a day, they didn't text every day but they did happen during the day while at work, never during the evenings or on weekends while we were home.


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## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

The view from 50,000 ft. is much clearer than the view from 25,000 ft.

Just a quick update, been a slow week and a half really. What Z and GP said last week really got me to thinking and doing some self evaluating over the past week or so, along with starting Awareness and CDNM, been doing a lot more work on me. You guys are right; I see how she’s throwing me these tests and how I’ve been failing them.

I’m really starting to notice what I did not like in our relationship, all the way back to the beginning. There were lots of things happening that I really am not cool with, yet I let them happen by rug sweeping and trying to ignore them, hoping they would just go away. I have owned up to my part of what lead to the separation and started working on those issues for me, nobody else. If an R is ever in the cards, she is going to have to accept that the “nice guy” she grew accustomed to is no longer going to put up with the BS I let slide before, this guy is going to stick to his boundaries.

Over the last week or so, I’ve really noticed my attitude towards R soften, not that I want to D right now but at the same time getting to R is going to take her showing me a hell of a lot more remorse and effort than what I’ve seen. From 50,000 ft. I’m not seeing anything remotely close to a direction in either way, from her, and I am not OK with being strung along in limbo. If anything I feel like she’s been cake eating to a certain degree…

This might sound funny but I feel like the last week I’ve been like Luke in Empire Strikes Back when he starts his training with Yoda, over the last week or so the things in my head are starting to become a little clearer…although I am not a Jedi yet.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Any more insight on posOM?


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## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Any more insight on posOM?


None. Without hiring a PI I'm afraid all I have to work with is the texts on the phone bills that I saw before moving out.

However, with the whole limbo state of things I am starting to feel like I am a plan B in a sense and I will NEVER be anyone's plan B.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

LovingHusband414 said:


> None. Without hiring a PI I'm afraid all I have to work with is the texts on the phone bills that I saw before moving out.
> 
> However, with the whole limbo state of things I am starting to feel like I am a plan B in a sense and I will NEVER be anyone's plan B.


Good. This is how it feels when you're on the path.


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## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Good. This is how it feels when you're on the path.


I don't think I was quite at 50,000 ft. before but over the last week I feel like I've gotten there. I had started to detach myself but not at the level I need to be, I am getting there now.

I'm tired of hearing "I don't know" and "I'm not sure how I feel about things yet", it's getting old really quick. To me those are wrong answers, if you want to be with me then you do, otherwise I am not going to put any effort towards something that is not reciprocated.


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

LovingHusband414 said:


> I'm tired of hearing "I don't know" and "I'm not sure how I feel about things yet", it's getting old really quick.


These are very clear answers to your question and the answer is most certainly of the Plan B variety. I am also willing to bet that there is an OM in the picture. 

You need to find him or go ahead and file for D. Rock the boat so to speak. If you want to save the marriage, then finding out who the OM is quite necessary.


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## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

GutPunch said:


> You need to find him or go ahead and file for D. Rock the boat so to speak. If you want to save the marriage, then finding out who the OM is quite necessary.


Filing for D has been something I have given much more consideration to doing over the last week, way more than I have in the past. I agree, rocking the boat and shaking things up needs to be my next step. If there is a posOM, I would love to find that out but as of now, the means to do so are very limited.


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

LovingHusband414 said:


> Filing for D has been something I have given much more consideration to doing over the last week, way more than I have in the past. I agree, rocking the boat and shaking things up needs to be my next step. If there is a posOM, I would love to find that out but as of now, the means to do so are very limited.


There is a definite script to these situations. I have seen it in my time here. The reason we stress finding the OM is that a marriage has no chance if there is OM. No need for counseling, date night, none of it. However, if you found out who it is and expose to everyone including his wife and your families what is going on the affair becomes real and allot of times falls apart. 

Then you can maybe look at reconciling or marriage counseling or whatever.


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## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

GutPunch said:


> There is a definite script to these situations. I have seen it in my time here. The reason we stress finding the OM is that a marriage has no chance if there is OM. No need for counseling, date night, none of it. However, if you found out who it is and expose to everyone including his wife and your families what is going on the affair becomes real and allot of times falls apart.
> 
> Then you can maybe look at reconciling or marriage counseling or whatever.


I definitely see what you mean with this. If I had the means I would definitely do my best to find out. Currently, without hiring a PI, it's just a logistical nightmare for me to do so on my own. None of the guys that I found in the text messages on the phone bill are married, all single, part-time dads from what I've gathered. Believe me, I would love to expose but I just don't have the evidence to do so at this time.

So right now my focus is to further detach, move on with my life for me, how I want to live it. It's looking like filing for D is really my only option to shake things up, I'm not sure if I'm ready to do that yet but I do know that I am much closer to making that decision now than I was even a week ago.

I also know she's dealing with some health issues and possibly even some depression/mental issues, it's hard to know this for certain with the limited interaction we've had. If there is no posOM, these health issues or depression could be playing a role in her decision making, who knows, that's not my problem to fix anymore, she has to make that call on her own.


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

LovingHusband414 said:


> I definitely see what you mean with this. If I had the means I would definitely do my best to find out. Currently, without hiring a PI, it's just a logistical nightmare for me to do so on my own. None of the guys that I found in the text messages on the phone bill are married, all single, part-time dads from what I've gathered. Believe me, I would love to expose but I just don't have the evidence to do so at this time.
> 
> So right now my focus is to further detach, move on with my life for me, how I want to live it. It's looking like filing for D is really my only option to shake things up, I'm not sure if I'm ready to do that yet but I do know that I am much closer to making that decision now than I was even a week ago.
> 
> I also know she's dealing with some health issues and possibly even some depression/mental issues, it's hard to know this for certain with the limited interaction we've had. If there is no posOM, these health issues or depression could be playing a role in her decision making, who knows, that's not my problem to fix anymore, she has to make that call on her own.


If you are not ready to file, then don't. 

However, the 180 is special made for you.

NC whatsoever. I mean none. Focus on you.

Hit the gym. Go out with friends. Have fun.

Detach


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## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

GutPunch said:


> If you are not ready to file, then don't.
> 
> However, the 180 is special made for you.
> 
> ...


I will definitely keep any and all contact child related, nothing else. With a child involved, is it possible to completely detach?


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

Yes...Indifference is your goal.

NC is impossible. Limited Contact.

Kids and finances only. 

Mine figured out what I was doing and would text something about 
the kids to get me to respond and would then try to change the subject. Don't take the bait.


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## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

Watching a movie (Episode III) and having a couple ****tails and Yoda speaks..."Attachment leads to jealousy, the shadow of greed that is. Train yourself to let go of everything you fear to lose." Hmmm...


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## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

I haven't posted in a while but it's been a few weeks of self discovery, and all is well. Been following Z's and ReGroup's thread daily and wishing you all pleasant journeys, you are all true inspirations. Up watching The Matrix and these words rang true..."Why do my eyes hurt?"...answer..."You've never used them before"


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## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

C'mon stop trying to hit me and hit me!!


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## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

"Do not try and bend the spoon...that's impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth. There is no spoon...then you'll see it's not the spoon that bends...only yourself."


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

How is the low contact going?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

GutPunch said:


> How is the low contact going?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Low contact is going well. She’s actually made statements recently about wanting to talk more and hang out a little bit and spend time together. I’ve remained cool, firm and dispassionate this whole time, observing her actions. No begging and pleading at all on my part in almost two months. I can tell I’m becoming less co-dependent, when I see her I haven’t gotten the nervous/anxious feelings in quite a while, I don't look to get her approval. I would like to start communicating a little more and spending some time together to see if we can get along better than we did, recently when we do talk and interact we’ve been getting along great.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

LovingHusband414 said:


> Low contact is going well. She’s actually made statements recently about wanting to talk more and hang out a little bit and spend time together. I’ve remained cool, firm and dispassionate this whole time, observing her actions. No begging and pleading at all on my part in almost two months. I can tell I’m becoming less co-dependent, when I see her I haven’t gotten the nervous/anxious feelings in quite a while, I don't look to get her approval. I would like to start communicating a little more and spending some time together to see if we can get along better than we did, recently when we do talk and interact we’ve been getting along great.


Wait until she asks you if you still care - and expresses dismay that you "might not"


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## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

Hello TAM world, it’s been a while since I’ve posted but I need to get back to work. W and I had been talking more over the past couple months, hung out a few times and both agreed it was nice and that us getting along better felt good. Then over the course of the last few weeks I started noticing her becoming distant again and putting off spending time together. When we do talk about how things are and where they are going, I’m back to getting the “I don’t know” answer. Observing actions it’s time for me to go with VERY LC again. More work and focus on me. I’ve been good at getting to 50,000 ft. and observing actions and from what I can tell, I definitely feel like I might be a Plan B.

I’m really struggling today and over the course of the past week because I thought and felt like things were beginning to turn around. I know she is currently dealing with some health issues and has been for a while now but I will no longer be there to help unless she asks for it. I will not be initiating any conversations unless they are about our son.


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

Yes, you are definitely plan b. 

She fished to see if you were on the hook and when she 
realized you were, she became distant. 

These talks need to end.

You may need to start the divorce process.
Plan B is an unacceptable situation.


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

LH414, this is exactly why you must work on detaching more and more. 

She views you as a friend at this moment.

If you want her back - this is the worst of possible outcomes. 

Let it go. Build yourself back.


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## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

These talks are definitely going to end. The only thing I will discuss with her is our son and only that.

I agree that Plan B is an unacceptable situation and I will now allow myself to be a Plan B. I've been giving a lot more thought to starting the divorce process, I don't think I'm there yet as I want to be 110% sure that I will have no regrets about doing so. I am, however, becoming much closer to that.

I'm moving into my own place in a few weeks and that is going to help me tremendously, I'll get to start working out again (which I cannot wait to do) and it will be much easier to get to go out with my friends more often. I will definitely be moving on myself.


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## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

ReGroup said:


> LH414, this is exactly why you must work on detaching more and more.
> 
> She views you as a friend at this moment.
> 
> ...


Absolutely agree with this. I was detached more before we started talking and spending a little time together but then I started to get pulled back in, slowly but surely.

Building myself back up is goal #1 right now.


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

Reread the 180 and live it.


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## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

Thanks fellas, I've been meaning to give updates here as I have been reading almost daily, following you all's threads and others. It just seems like I kind of got off track here over the last few weeks.


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

She intentionally sucked you in emotionally. 

It sucks, and she isn't consciously doing it to you.

However, you must be stronger in your approach.

You must be in control. Live your life and if she doesn't want
to join you that's her problem.


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## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

GutPunch said:


> She intentionally sucked you in emotionally.
> 
> It sucks, and she isn't consciously doing it to you.
> 
> ...


I agree. What I don't get, however, is how can someone suck another person whom they say they love and care for in emotionally, then push them away like that?

And you are correct, I do need to be stronger with my approach, be more in control of myself. Life starts now...


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

LovingHusband414 said:


> I agree. What I don't get, however, is how can someone suck another person whom they say they love and care for in emotionally, then push them away like that?
> 
> And you are correct, I do need to be stronger with my approach, be more in control of myself. Life starts now...


Why wouldn't they push and pull... when we let them?

Cake tastes good.


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

zillard said:


> Why wouldn't they push and pull... when we let them?
> 
> Cake tastes good.


Why she MUST realize that you will not be her safety net.

Mrs. RG tested those waters last week and it was denied.

You must do the same. She MUST know that you are more than a secondary option... It increases your sexual ranking.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

Definitely, I'm in the middle of MMSLP as we speak, great read!!

LC is definitely in full effect at the moment, however, what's the best approach to show her that I AM more than a secondary option? That I AM NOT her safety net? I ask because I'm sure I will get "I think I miss you" said to me at some point down the road. I fell for it in the past but I WILL NOT be someone's plan b.


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## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

BTW, congrats on the move Z, looks like things are going well for you. Kudos, bro!


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

LovingHusband414 said:


> Definitely, I'm in the middle of MMSLP as we speak, great read!!
> 
> LC is definitely in full effect at the moment, however, what's the best approach to show her that I AM more than a secondary option? That I AM NOT her safety net? I ask because I'm sure I will get "I think I miss you" said to me at some point down the road. I fell for it in the past but I WILL NOT be someone's plan b.


Do not engage. Treat her like a business associate. Cordial but absolutely nothing personal. Do not be too available. Do not respond to fishing. Do not initiate anything but business talk and then only when necessary. 

Don't react when she pushes buttons. Hang up, stop texting or walk away without looking back.

And go have fun! Dive into your passions. It will be noticed, but more importantly is good for you and your happiness. 



LovingHusband414 said:


> BTW, congrats on the move Z, looks like things are going well for you. Kudos, bro!


Thanks! Things are going great!


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## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

Hello TAM world, it’s been a while since I’ve posted, been busy with a move and getting settled into a routine over the last couple months but I’m back now. Over the last couple months I thought my W and I were starting to turn a corner in our relationship, started talking more and hung out a few times and both agreed it was nice and going well.

Then a couple days ago I was told that she just can’t get back to how she felt before and that she doesn’t think she can do it anymore. Over the past couple months when I look at things from 50,000 ft. it wasn’t a shock to hear this. It became me initiating random chit chat most of the time and me asking her to come hang out and spend time together, although she did ask me on a couple of occasions to go do something but those plans always fell through and put off to a later date. After she told me this a couple days ago she then said “please don’t hate me” and “I don’t want it to be weird when we see each other”, kept apologizing and saying the last thing she wants to do is hurt me but there are just too many things she can’t forget about that happened then another apology and saying I can hate her if I want to.

So anyway, since that day a few days ago I have gone no contact at all, unless it was concerning our son. Was I hurt and hurt again? Sure, I am human and I do have a big heart. Maybe I deserve a stack of 2x4s because I should have done things a little different and let her pursue me more. I have been doing things for me to better myself still, working out 4 days a week, going out with friends when I can.

So now I guess it’s back to the drawing board, continue to work on me and have as limited contact as possible.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Please don't hate her?

As I recall, you don't have any children.

I'd never talk to her again.

She just wants to make sure you're Plan B.


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## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

We do have a one year old son together so I will have to talk to her concerning him.

But yeah, "please don't hate me", sounds to me like "I don't want to feel bad for hurting you again so tell me that you don't hate me so that I won't feel as bad"...sound about right??


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

LovingHusband414 said:


> We do have a one year old son together so I will have to talk to her concerning him.
> 
> But yeah, "please don't hate me", sounds to me like "I don't want to feel bad for hurting you again so tell me that you don't hate me so that I won't feel as bad"...sound about right??


"Let's be friends"

"No hard feelings"

Complete bullspit.


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## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

I agree. A couple weeks ago she did say that she hopes we can be friends no matter what happens between us. That comment immediately sent me to 50K ft. and I was like, so I am Plan B, I have been this whole time. Where I kick myself is that I let it happen...but then she would say a few things and it would bring me back down and trick me into thinking we were turning a corner in our relationship and possibly heading towards an R.

Let the 2x4's drop in 3....2....1...


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

LovingHusband414 said:


> but then she would say a few things and it would bring me back down and trick me into thinking we were turning a corner in our relationship and possibly heading towards an R.
> 
> Let the 2x4's drop in 3....2....1...


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## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

Thanks, I needed that


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## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

Then a little exchange this morning...

W: Can you meet at so and so place to exchange our son

LH: Yep

W: Ok my mom is going to meet you so you don't have to see me

LH: I have no problem seeing you but whatever

W: I really don't like your attitude

LH: I don't have an attitude. I merely said I don't have a problem seeing you but if I'm meeting your mom that's fine.

W: Whatever...that's what you said. But ok. I have been trying to be nice to you and you have been nothing but short and rude with me. So I give up. I'll play the way you are

Mind you we haven't talked hardly at all in a few days...


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

LovingHusband414 said:


> Then a little exchange this morning...
> 
> W: Can you meet at so and so place to exchange our son
> 
> ...


Dammit son....

When you reach the point above, it's "I'm sorry you feel that way"

Do not explain jack shix to her.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

"but whatever" is a little snarky. 

Explaining that you don't have an attitude is unnecessary and ropes you back in.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

zillard said:


> "but whatever" is a little snarky.
> 
> Explaining that you don't have an attitude is unnecessary and ropes you back in.


Which is exactly what she wants.

She's an emotional vampire.


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## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

You know, it was at that point when I had the "I'm sorry you feel that way" typed out but then backed it out and put my response. It's been a couple months since I've had to be cool, firm and dispassionate but I'll get it back starting now...


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## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

zillard said:


> "but whatever" is a little snarky.
> 
> Explaining that you don't have an attitude is unnecessary and ropes you back in.


You are correct Z, I should have said that I don't have a problem seeing you and left it at that.

How are things with you man? I need to catch up on your new thread.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

LovingHusband414 said:


> How are things with you man? I need to catch up on your new thread.


Overall I'm doing very well. Still have ups and downs but that will always be the case. 

The downs are super rough. Really hard. But seeing them for what they are helps them pass. 

And because of this ^ the ups are simply amazing! 

Like in art - the bright whites just don't have the same pop without the dark for contrast.

Who wants a flat grey painting?


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## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

Hi LH414 - 

I'm sorry you've experienced this sort of flip-flopping so many of us have also witnessed and endured. It is really tough when one spouse is more committed (or the only one committted) to saving the marriage. Not that it makes a difference to the outcome, I suppose, but may I ask: these past few months that you described as seemingly going well between the two of you, was that a mutual conscious attempt at reconciliation or not acknowleged as such -- just more informally a phase of "seeing how things go"? 

I allowed myself to get my hopes up so many times during my separation, hoping that my now XH would change his mind. I take responsibility for letting him pull my strings and accepting crumbs (hell, I took every little crumb as a sign of "hope"! LOL!). I caused myself so much self-inflicted and unnecessarily prolonged misery by sitting in the victim chair staying tuned to his mixed signals, instead of moving on with my life.

It made me envious of people who rip the band-aid off quickly. Yes, it may still hurt like hell, but anything beats the long slow torture of prolonged separation limbo. I hope this latest overture on her part makes it easier for you to make a clean break and get in with your life. It is not fun staying attached to someone who isn't sure they want you, much less someone who has openly declared they don't.

You are doing the right thing building up your strength and working on valuing and loving yourself. Without a doubt, there are others who will want you when you are ready to make yourself available. And you will be the stronger and wiser for the lessons you have taken away, once you close the door on this chapter and open a new one  

Cheers, - A12


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## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

zillard said:


> Overall I'm doing very well. Still have ups and downs but that will always be the case.
> 
> The downs are super rough. Really hard. But seeing them for what they are helps them pass.
> 
> ...


Good to hear man!! I know about the ups and downs as well, they will always be there and you are right, seeing them for what they are does help them pass. Great analogy with the bright whites popping more with the dark contrast!


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

zillard said:


> Overall I'm doing very well. Still have ups and downs but that will always be the case.
> 
> The downs are super rough. Really hard. But seeing them for what they are helps them pass.
> 
> ...


Nice analogy, zillard.

As for wanting to be friends, LH, I think it would be pretty rare for two people to be friends after a divorce which was only wanted by one of the parties. Too much hurt. Maybe after several years it could happen if both people had truly moved on, but to expect it is totally unrealistic.

People say things like, ’I hope we can still be friends” to assuage their conscience. It helps them feel better about what they are doing.

Stay at 50,000 feet.


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## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

Greetings A12!! How are you doing nowadays?

The last few months were more of an informal phase of seeing how things go. There was no real talk of attempting to reconcile or having an end goal or anything like that. Like you, I would take every little crumb as a sign of hope, I tried to take it day to day and one transaction at a time, for the most part I did well at that but there were a few slip ups and moments I tried to speed things ahead.


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## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

Frostflower said:


> Nice analogy, zillard.
> 
> As for wanting to be friends, LH, I think it would be pretty rare for two people to be friends after a divorce which was only wanted by one of the parties. Too much hurt. Maybe after several years it could happen if both people had truly moved on, but to expect it is totally unrealistic.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the response FF, nice to hear from you!

This is exactly what I've been telling myself over the past few days. After so many ups and downs and putting myself and my heart out there only to be played with time and time again, the being friends part could happen but like you said, it would only be after a long period of healing and forgiving and there are no guarantees.

I plan on pitching a tent at 50,000 ft.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

LovingHusband414 said:


> Thanks for the response FF, nice to hear from you!
> 
> This is exactly what I've been telling myself over the past few days. After so many ups and downs and putting myself and my heart out there only to be played with time and time again, the being friends part could happen but like you said, it would only be after a long period of healing and forgiving and there are no guarantees.
> 
> I plan on pitching a tent at 50,000 ft.


Its a good place to be!

Now you need to practice lines like:

“I’m sorry you feel that way.”

“I don’t like where this conversation is going.”

Stand in front of a mirror and say them out loud. Listen to how they sound. Get used to saying them.....heck, type them too since you communicate in part by text.....so that, when the circumstances call for them, they won’t seem strange.

You can do this!


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## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

Frostflower said:


> Its a good place to be!
> 
> Now you need to practice lines like:
> 
> ...


Thanks FF!! I was there quite a bit a few months back and did use those phrases when needed, then we kind of started talking a little more that turned into talking daily and eventually hung out for a couple hours one day and I was brought back down and then actually spent one whole day together once, thinking we were going "somewhere" when from 50,000 ft. I felt like I was just given attention when it was convenient for her. I won't make that mistake again...


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## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

I know this is focusing on her and I shouldn't be doing that, but the whole comment about sending her mom to drop off our son so I won't have to see her is replaying in my mind as the day goes on. What is the point of saying and doing that? Is she reaching for the victim chair when this is all her doing and her decision?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

LovingHusband414 said:


> I know this is focusing on her and I shouldn't be doing that, but the whole comment about sending her mom to drop off our son so I won't have to see her is replaying in my mind as the day goes on. What is the point of saying and doing that? Is she reaching for the victim chair when this is all her doing and her decision?


It's what she's done.

It's what she's doing.

It's what she will do.

When people show you who they are, believe them.


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## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

I'm slowly learning that again. Then the comment about her not really liking my attitude is an attempt for her to justify her actions and throw blame back to me for my response of not having any problem seeing her and adding the but whatever to the end of my statement. Is this pretty spot on?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

LovingHusband414 said:


> I'm slowly learning that again. Then the comment about her not really liking my attitude is an attempt for her to justify her actions and throw blame back to me for my response of not having any problem seeing her and adding the but whatever to the end of my statement. Is this pretty spot on?


Of course, it's what she has done.

It's what she is doing.

It's what she will do.


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## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

Hi LH414 - 

Thanks for asking, I am hanging in there and adjusting to the "new normal," counting my blessings, taking life a day at a time. And I miss BW's friendship! He sent a short email last night, but I didn't see it until this morning. At least we know he's alive out there?!

As to your post #232, I would not over-think it, but yes, it is classic blame-shifting she's engaging in. Don't let yourself be baited, and you may even start finding her antics entertaining in a pathetic kind of way - LOL!

All Best Wishes, -A12


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## LovingHusband414 (Feb 8, 2013)

Awakening2012 said:


> Thanks for asking, I am hanging in there and adjusting to the "new normal," counting my blessings, taking life a day at a time. And I miss BW's friendship! He sent a short email last night, but I didn't see it until this morning. At least we know he's alive out there?!


Glad to hear you're hanging in there and adjusting, I know how it is as I've been adjusting to a change myself here over the last couple months, namely the nights where I'm by myself and the workout is over and the house and laundry are all clean and the lawn is mowed. Sometimes downtime is nice but sometimes it really sucks. 



Awakening2012 said:


> As to your post #232, I would not over-think it, but yes, it is classic blame-shifting she's engaging in. Don't let yourself be baited, and you may even start finding her antics entertaining in a pathetic kind of way - LOL!


It's funny you mention that because the first thought in my head when I got the "so you don't have to see me" line was of sheer laughter, almost saying to myself here we go again and then the not liking my attitude quip really made me almost laugh out loud. I guess my 50,000 ft. observation skills had some cob webs that needed dusted off.


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