# Husband's Wandering Eyes



## maybe not true love (Apr 4, 2014)

Hi everyone! 
Here is yet another question about husbands' actions. I apologize, but everything I have read has bits and pieces of what I am feeling and I would like answers to my specifics. I also want to make clear that I hold all to this question - not just men.

I totally get that people can not help if they think someone is attractive or not according to their standards of appeal, but when men look back twice, three times or if you are at an event and there is opportunity for more glances - what does this mean? My husband tells me that he looks at everyone the same, but this isn't true because I have watched for it to make sue that I wasn't imagining things. He also changes his voice on the phone according to how appealing the person sounds. I can tell if he was talking to a guy, unattractive sounding women, or someone who he knows without seeing that he would not be attractive to (an older woman or what not). There are many coincidences that could be just this, or him maximizing his opportunities for eye candy. This to be is a type of betrayal because he is taking an active effort to see these people or to catch their eye. There is a difference between seeing someone attractive and looking because you are taking in sexual data about them (which is lust)! To do this in front of or behind your spouse's back is disrespectful just the same. I am aware and I am grown enough to admit that I am terribly insecure and I don't trust him, but this is something I am currently trying to work on. I gained 90 pounds due to some medication I was taking which just set my self esteem even lower than it originally was. So, I do understand where some of these feelings are coming from. However, at the risk of sounding arrogant, I know I am not an ugly person (even with the weight gain) because I notice other's reactions to me. Even after all of this time (10 years) I break into hysterical crying spells because it hurts so bad! My thinking goes: If you like their look - what happens when you like everything else also? No matter who you are - there is ALWAYS someone better, so if you are lowering your guard for eye candy - instead of just saying okay, she's pretty (no detailed thought of what looks nice, just she's pretty) what else might you ease into and then justify it later? I may can think of a SHORT, SHORT list of men in my life that has not had this lesson to offer. This is really for those that have found their partner in this life, because unless you are looking for another partner, shouldn't how you notice people be something that changes? It just seems that I am only good enough as long as I step to the side and let him enjoy the better options then when they are gone, jump back in with a smile and I'm not okay with that because I have way more to offer than that!!

I have lost 50 pounds of the weight so far and I am working on the remainder, but the closer I get to my original weight, I am finding that I resent him for his distance with my weight gain. In my mind, since it was an effect to the medication and not because I could not stop eating - his attitude will also change if I become deformed in anyway due to an accident or whatever, fill in the blank!! We have two beautiful children to think about and I DO NOT want to disrupt their lives because they need both parents, but it has gotten to the point that he and I have seemed to harden our hearts towards each other. There is a long list of problems in our marriage, but he refuses to go to counseling with me. Even through my worst of times, he has been here - at the house- and around physically, but not emotionally. And to be honest I don't know if he loves me or if he just thinks divorce is a sin. When we talk he has said that I am too stupid to see that he love me. This may be true, I may be too stupid to see that he loves me, but I'm not too stupid to see his reactions to others, to see the glances, and to connect the dots to see a bigger picture. He has also made the comment that sometimes love just isn't enough. 

I'm not a look but don't touch kind of girl, he knew this when he married me, in fact I gave him back the ring about a month before the wedding because this was something I just could not deal with. I am tired of living in misery, but I really don't want to leave because I do love him. Life has taught me that you can't trust people and I am finding difficulty in rewriting these core beliefs. Some days, I'm strong enough to say, screw it, I am worthy and he loves me. Some days, I want to throw up when he tells me he loves me or touches me. Other days, I want to give up because I believe the lies ingrained in my brain. 

Anyways, thank you for following this to the end of my rant! Your comments are very much appreciated. Please be truthful, but keep the hurtful comments to yourself.


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## CharlotteMcdougall (Mar 15, 2014)

It sounds like your husband doesn't respect you.


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

Welcome to the forum. I see problems on both sides here. 

1. First of all, *he enjoys looking at other women because he is heterosexual. It does not mean he is dissatisfied with you!*! I assume you intended to marry a straight man, not a gay or asexual man. What comes with that is a man who enjoys looking at women. Now it's true, that out of respect for you he doesn't have to be obvious about it. I know some women here will say "my husband doesn't look at other women". Right. 

This issue used to upset my wife also. But you know what? Now she is much more secure, and today we can look at women together and even get into a discussion over which one is better looking. When you finally realize you don't have to take it personally, or take it as an attack against you, then life is a much better place. You can even enjoy it.

2. 90 lbs weight gain is a MUCH more serious problem than your husband's behavior. Congratulations on losing 50 lbs, because that's exactly what you should be doing. Your health is more important than any other issue here. Take care of yourself first. 

3. Why does your husband refuse to go to marriage counseling? This is also a more serious problem than his wandering eyes. If he's not willing to work on the marriage, then that shows you how much it means to him. He might also have a mistaken impression of what marriage counseling is (some people mistakenly think it's like going before a judge or something). If he thinks divorce is a sin, then you may have to use that in your favor. Threaten divorce unless he takes the marriage seriously and goes to counseling, either individually or with you.


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## yours4ever (Mar 14, 2013)

It is normal to be jelous and insecure when your spouse shows admiration or interest in opposite sex. I was too and still am from time to time.
.
And then i started to point out attractive female AND hot guys to him. Start looking for hot guys, they are EVERYWHERE.
.
And then i got tired at that. 
.
.
My advice to you and i, would be : 
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1. Acknowledge to yourself that you are jelous/ insecure,
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2. accept that feeling. Say it is okay. 
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3. Know that you are feeling that way cause u love him.
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4. Decide that you want to be free of insecurity and experience peace. 5. Breathe in, let go of insecurity/jelousy. (it is easy, ask me if you want to know how) 6. Ask him to tell or show you he loves you and are commited to you, even better if it is in your love language. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

maybe not true love said:


> * Even through my worst of times, he has been here - at the house- and around physically, but not emotionally. And to be honest I don't know if he loves me or if he just thinks divorce is a sin. When we talk he has said that I am too stupid to see that he love me. This may be true, I may be too stupid to see that he loves me, but I'm not too stupid to see his reactions to others, to see the glances, and to connect the dots to see a bigger picture. He has also made the comment that sometimes love just isn't enough. *
> 
> *I'm not a look but don't touch kind of girl, he knew this when he married me, in fact I gave him back the ring about a month before the wedding because this was something I just could not deal with. I am tired of living in misery, but I really don't want to leave because I do love him.*


There are a number of problems here and each seem to be feeding into the other one and the outcome is just more problems.
Your resentment is building because of a behavioural pattern which your husband has exhibited towards you even before you were married.
There is only so much a person can reasonably take, and you seem to have reached your limit with him and his disrespectful , callous behaviour.

It is good that you are working on reducing your weight , and the truth seems to be finally seeping into your mind about his attitude towards other women vis a vis , you.

Please note, you are not wrong to feel this way, my advice is to continue working on the weight and making yourself beautiful. I don't believe in begging for respect from anyone. If he didn't respect you before marriage, during the early years and when you put on that extra weight, I doubt very much he will 
" suddenly" wake up and stop his ridiculous behaviour. Clearly this is affecting your self esteem , albeit , negatively.

However , only you can decide what you are going to do about it.
Is he a good husband otherwise?
Do you deserve better?
Are you prepared to continue accepting this?

Whatever you decide,
Love yourself.


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## maybe not true love (Apr 4, 2014)

I don't mean for it to sound as if my husband is some terrible guy. He is a good guy! I have been worse throughout the marriage due to this issue than he. I have hit some very low low's. However, my issues are not the only ones in this marriage and because of this and to try to gain some understanding, is why I am seeking advice. 

@ Caribbean Man:

However , only you can decide what you are going to do about it.
Is he a good husband otherwise? 
He provides for his family and, again, he is a good guy, but I think he has hit his limit with dealing with the things he deals with me as I have with him. This may be clouding our judgment of the each other and keeping us in a state of tension. We don't really talk about much that we would have to work through. We argue or get so upset we say forget it and never come back to it and things build up. 
Do you deserve better?
I'm up in the air about that, because others say that they think he really loves me and I think he loves me, but when it is obvious that he likes what he sees and wants to see more - it is like someone punches me in the throat and rips out my heart and I am left there to bleed out. He id discrete about looking, but I would rather be alone than to live with him so interested in others.
Are you prepared to continue accepting this?
I guess the answer is no, to be honest. I don't look at other guys because no one is as attractive as my husband is in my eyes. It just really sucks that instead of people not being to measure up to me - I can't seem to measure up to them.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

I agree with Theseus above about the taking care of yourself and getting in marriage counseling. I wonder though could this extreme weight gain have come with some emotional issues that stem from your low self esteem. Fits of crying, some days you feel confident in relationship other times you can't stand his touch? This seems a bit extreme and all over the place on an emotional scale. 

I'm not excusing his behavior but seems that your reaction is over the top as well.


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## maybe not true love (Apr 4, 2014)

First, thank you to everyone who has offered your thoughts. I really do appreciate your comments!

Wolf, 
Yes, I admit that my reactions are extreme. Personally, I think that in the process of trying to rewrite the crappy things in my brain (and there are a lot of things that needs rewriting), I am in a struggle with myself. It is like the darkness, if you will, is pulling me back in when I get a breath of air and then I hit a point of exhaustion trying to fight it. I'm not comfortable in this pace but I can't seem to cut the ropes holding me down not matter how hard I fight against them. I don't excuse his actions, but I also don't excuse my own either. I have had a lot of things happen in my life (not as bad as some others, but still enough to screw me up) but at some point I am responsible for changing and rewriting these things. I guess I am here to find yet another view or angle to look at this since what I am doing isn't working (or not working as fast as I feel it should!). I guess I don't want to be the fool! The bombshell came when I realized that he is attracted to other women and some way more than me and I don't feel that I can stand any more bombshells! Really seeing this has changed my feelings for him. I do deep down feel that my efforts are a waste of time when he like someone better than me. I realize that sounds childish or whatever, but that is how I feel about it. My view of marriage has changed drastically!! It really is no longer as special as it once was to me - it is just another relationship - a business plan, if you will, to survive life. We are trying to live a Christian life, but it doesn't seem to be as special as God intended it to be because of this. Also, I have heard it said there should be no worries as long as he comes home to me... Again, in my mind this is not okay because I am not the reason for his excitement, someone else is and I am in essence just a means of taking care of things (I assume you get the gist - I'm trying not to be too forward). I'm just very confused and really hating married life right now and for the past 10 years! Not that I would be happier, but he would. I do feel sometimes that I should just get out of the way so he could find someone that would not care about these things and he could be happy. 
As for the weight gain, I will not blame absolutely 100 % of it on the medication, however, when I stopped the medication I lost the weight. I did continue exercising but nothing too much different than I was doing. I have since had two children and still have not had the weight that I had while taking the medication. This is the information I use in determining that the weight was from the medicine because the medication is the only variable that has changed.
I am so sorry for the long book length posts! Thank you for taking the time to read them!!


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

maybe not true love said:


> First, thank you to everyone who has offered your thoughts. I really do appreciate your comments!
> 
> Wolf,
> Yes, I admit that my reactions are extreme. Personally, I think that in the process of trying to rewrite the crappy things in my brain (and there are a lot of things that needs rewriting), I am in a struggle with myself. It is like the darkness, if you will, is pulling me back in when I get a breath of air and then I hit a point of exhaustion trying to fight it. I'm not comfortable in this pace but I can't seem to cut the ropes holding me down not matter how hard I fight against them. I don't excuse his actions, but I also don't excuse my own either. I have had a lot of things happen in my life (not as bad as some others, but still enough to screw me up) but at some point I am responsible for changing and rewriting these things. I guess I am here to find yet another view or angle to look at this since what I am doing isn't working (or not working as fast as I feel it should!). I guess I don't want to be the fool! The bombshell came when I realized that he is attracted to other women and some way more than me and I don't feel that I can stand any more bombshells! Really seeing this has changed my feelings for him. I do deep down feel that my efforts are a waste of time when he like someone better than me. I realize that sounds childish or whatever, but that is how I feel about it. My view of marriage has changed drastically!! It really is no longer as special as it once was to me - it is just another relationship - a business plan, if you will, to survive life. We are trying to live a Christian life, but it doesn't seem to be as special as God intended it to be because of this. Also, I have heard it said there should be no worries as long as he comes home to me... Again, in my mind this is not okay because I am not the reason for his excitement, someone else is and I am in essence just a means of taking care of things (I assume you get the gist - I'm trying not to be too forward). I'm just very confused and really hating married life right now and for the past 10 years! Not that I would be happier, but he would. I do feel sometimes that I should just get out of the way so he could find someone that would not care about these things and he could be happy.
> ...



First I give you a lot of respect for recognizing your part in this. It amazes me how some here are quick to place all woes on the spouse and not see their part in it. Takes a mature mind to see that.

Second I agree that yes men and women to do find others outside their relationship attractive and all, to some degree will check others out. Some take that way to far as your husband seems to do. 

But I disagree that marriage can't be special. I think it really can be and have wonderful friends who have wonderful marriages. Ok well from what I know anyway because behind closed doors who really knows right? But the thing that appears to make their relationships so special is how much importance they place on one another. I hope you guys can get some counseling to maybe find that way to connect again. You can't do that alone he needs to work at that too.

Good luck


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## MSP (Feb 9, 2012)

You might be interested in THIS thread. 

Both of you sound insecure. And you sound way over the top dramatic. I mean seriously, you feel “someone punches [you] in the throat and rips [your] heart out and [you] are left to bleed” just because he glances at other women? I’m not condoning him for doing this, but get a grip. There are far worse things to go through in marriage.

Just because he looks at them it doesn’t mean that he is rejecting you. Look at it this way; just because you like steak, it doesn’t mean you hate ice-cream. Men notice other women in an idle she-looks-hot-too-bad-I’m-married kind of way, while women fantasize about upgrading to their perfect handyman-secret-millionaire-male-model husband who will almost definitely be waiting for her as soon as she dumps her current loser. Neither of these fantasies are helpful to a marriage, but they’re pretty common.

You say he’s discrete and not throwing this in your face and that he’s a good husband in other ways. I say, count your blessings. Yes, it would be better if he stopped, but no one’s perfect. 

Your husband may look at other girls, but you’re looking at leaving your husband and probably trying to replace him with another man, sooner or later. You say you’re a Christian, but you’re prepared to divorce, even though Jesus had very strong words to say against divorce. How is it that you feel that this action would be more acceptable than his actions?

I don’t blame him for not wanting to go to counselling, since counselling almost invariably favours women, even in the format itself, let alone the things said. That said, some sort of mediation would be helpful so that you two can have a calm discussion about _each other’s_ faults and what _you’re each prepared to do_ to work on them.


** Sorry if this sounds harsh. I've had a rough night. But you should read some of the threads in the coping with infidelity forum to get a little perspective.


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

maybe not true love said:


> The bombshell came when I realized that he is attracted to other women and some way more than me and I don't feel that I can stand any more bombshells! Really seeing this has changed my feelings for him. I do deep down feel that my efforts are a waste of time when he like someone better than me. I realize that sounds childish or whatever, but that is how I feel about it. My view of marriage has changed drastically!! It really is no longer as special as it once was to me - it is just another relationship - a business plan, if you will, to survive life. We are trying to live a Christian life, but it doesn't seem to be as special as God intended it to be because of this.



I think part of the problem here is that you are looking at your husband's love and attraction as a zero-sum game, like a limited pool of money. So you probably think that if he's attracted to another person, then that automatically steals away some of his attraction for you. 

But it's NOT a zero-sum game. Any man can be attracted to 100 women, and still feel a strong attraction for the 101st one he sees. And still go home and be attracted to his wife. 

Or here's another way to look at it. I love my wife dearly. And after we had two children, I loved them dearly too. Does that mean I now love my wife any less?? Hell no. If anything, I love her more now!

Finally, let's turn this around. Are you going to seriously tell us that you are NEVER attracted to other men?


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## maybe not true love (Apr 4, 2014)

MSP,
I am trying to live a Christian life and I don't deny that He hates divorce. Although, 1 Corth. explains in vs. 10 that a women is not to depart from her husband, but if she does choose to do this then she is to remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband. I have spent much time looking at this and in prayer and I think that EVERY avenue should be taken to try to fix this because I do understand that if I leave that I could not remarry or be reconciled to my husband if I were with another. On that note, I don't have intentions to be with anyone else because after I gave him my heart there was no more to give in that type of relationship. There are women and men that hold to this idea everyday that is why there are people that do not remarry after their spouse dies. I understand the seriousness of this type of decision and that is why it is one that I have not acted upon because I am trying to understand all I can and implement new was of thinking to replace the feelings I am having. 
No, say that there are not men out there that are attractive. I can say that there is no other man out there that I am taking in sexual data on and zeroing in on what I like about him - be it his looks, personality, etc.! I can also look at women and judge their attractiveness, but again, I am not taking in the sexual data. Because of the events in my life, this is how I chose to look at things when I chose to pick a life partner. My husband knew all of this and displayed some of the same feelings and that is why I gave him my entire heart. I am not upset because he can judge that someone else is attractive, what I am upset about is discrete or not, his actions show that he not only is attracted to them, but he also wants to be acknowledged back. What I am upset about is that I am willing to do any and everything (within reason- I won't be a door mat) that he could ask for so that the temptation is eliminated and it doesn't seem to be good enough. I am also aware that there are some women that have to deal with way worse than I have to deal with but this in no way means that I should just bottle up what I feel and say what I am feeling is not important. Yes, my emotions have gone to the extreme, but I have never acted like they haven't. I also haven't acted as if I have no issues or problems of my own. 
As far as the descriptive wording... that I how intense the feelings are to me. Would you have gotten how badly this hurts if I had just said.. "I'm sad"? I don't try to be dramatic, I am just an emotional person.
Leaving is something that I am considering because this isn't something that is easing with time. I would rather us be happy apart than living together and being unhappy together. Again, I am no angel! I have things I need to work on and life with me has not been a joy ride. Again, I in no way want to make him out to be some kind of monster, because he isn't. I am trying to gain understanding so that I can find a way to get a grip on the things I need to but I am not willing just to accept anyway he wants to act and joke it off. That doesn't help either because the issue is still not being addressed.
** In response to your apology: Your post did come across as a little strong, but it was something I needed to hear and I respect and appreciate your view on it.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Here is the problem with leaving though.... It's easy to eject out of a bad situation and yes it will likely make you feel better short term...but then months down the road when you start getting lonely and want a new relationship you will still have not worked on your own issues. 

No matter who you get involved with they will be flawed because we all are....your husband is flawed, as are you, but you already have a lot of time and energy invested in this marriage, you owe it to yourself to try everything possible to make this better first.


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## maybe not true love (Apr 4, 2014)

Theseus,

I want to start by thanking you for your comments from the beginning. In replying to other post, I haven't come back to yours. Thank you for sharing your wife's issues with this and offering some light that things might not be like this forever. I appreciate the statement that things can be better if I stop looking at it as a personal attack. 
The answer to the question you posed about my being attracted to others is explained in my response to MSP. I apologize for that but I am also giving attention to my children and I failed to answer the question in the appropriate place. Another part to this answer, however is, the only time that I took in data about others is when I had an appointment with a divorce lawyer, but I decided that my decision about divorce was premature, I hadn't prayed enough about it and it really wasn't a real option at the time just a start of my journey that has lead me to be able to recognize some of my own problem being contributed to a failing marriage. I have really come a long way which I am sure from an outsider's point of view is terrible. Before I was just saying I have faults but I never named them. Like I have said before, I understand now where some feelings are coming from and I have a better maturity level to select proper solutions to the problems. I haven't had that in the past and I am better equipped to move forward. I apologize again for including your answer in my other response.


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## maybe not true love (Apr 4, 2014)

Thank you wolf.

It has taken many years and many low points to have this outlook and being able to admit my own flaws, much less put them out there to be rejected and criticized. Perhaps I should have mentioned from the start my abandonment issues, but I guess that I grouped it with the trust issues mentioned. I say this in response to your statement about other relationships. I haven't left for many reasons... I love him dearly even though I am unable to show it all of the time because of these insecurities. Secondly, I'm not gone because of our kids. They need both parents and not just actively in their lives but in their home! Parents who are able to talk about things and work through issues. Parents who have true smiles and laughs and not just forced ones. I have ALWAYS believed this because sometimes my house seemed like WW3 and I hated being there. I have only recently learned not to place blame but to look at it as it is and come to a healthy place about it. Third, I am still here because I don't feel that I have yet exhausted all areas of healing and I still see a faint light at the end of this dark tunnel. And this is not me being dramatic - it is dark here in my world, in my head and unlike other who can come and go - I can't I can't walk away and then come back to it later. I have to fight for the light through all of this crap I believe about myself so I do ask that what might sound self explanatory to others doesn't always filter through the same to everyone. We can't live in the past, but the past has provided experiences to display red flags for us in the future. That is how we survive in life by experiences we have learned and knowing how to avoid them the net time they come around. Can we take them too far, yes! This is when we have to rewrite the feelings to those events and the messages we acknowledge both from our own self talk and what we allow our minds to hold on to from what others have to say.

I absolutely agree that the decision needs to be made with the future in mind. I definitely want to do what is best for my family even if I am confused at the moment of what that "best" might be.


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## maybe not true love (Apr 4, 2014)

Another point, Theseus, I failed to mention this in my last statement because I was rushing to give my attention back to my children... when I realized that divorce really was not an option at that time, I returned to the lack of collecting data. Also, a point that I feel is valid is that although I collected certain data, I never had the intentions of acting on it which what I am understanding you and others say when you talk about men collecting this data and please correct me if I am misunderstanding the point you are trying to make. When I made the decision to give our relationship my full attention again then the data collection disappeared and I reverted back to the idea of acknowledging the attractiveness without the data collect such as is done with the females I look at. Everyone says that men like the female body just as women like the male body. I know it, I get it. But can men not look at another man and state the opinion that he is an attractive male in a non sexual way. Of course they can just as women can other women. Now perhaps I am fighting a losing battle but I would suggest that since my husband (and other spouses - husband and wives) has already chosen his mate in this life, unless he is window shopping, there is no need to collect such sexual information about someone.


** Back to general conversation**

Not every detail about either of us (past or present) will be able to be discussed here on this forum. That is what I pay my therapist to help me with so there is no need to hash it out here. I am simply trying to collect data so that I can try to effectively rewrite some of the messages I have about this. I am too stubborn to just go with the flow and accept that this is not something that he can help. Again, I'm not talking about making the statement that someone is a pretty/ handsome person just like I expect him to be able to say someone is funny, smart, etc. It is the idea that it is okay for him to seem to take it a minute step further and before he realized he loves someone else. From experience I know how some women are and I understand that this is where trust in him comes in. *Back to he point and off that rant: I am not at a place right at this moment in time (today) for this to click and I am a different person tomorrow. I am just looking for viewpoints to think about so that the next time I am in a situation where these feeling come up I can have more information than just me discrediting my feelings about it. With the advice I receive I can be better prepared to self talk and remind myself that I am not crazy and I am not alone and that there is hope to improve our situation. The only reason I am on this site is because my husband won't talk to me about it. This is understandable because I would probably be burnt out too. Not to say he doesn't contribute but I am just saying I understand his thoughts behind thinking that it is pointless to talk about some things. 
So to be redundant: I very much appreciate what all of you have to say. I hope that I will be able to process the advice and personal accounts and reshape how I view certain things. My views and opinions will never come from what others tell me how to act about it or I should do this or I should do that. Like everyone else, I have to come to my own conclusions from the information given so thank you for providing me with that information. I am trying to be proactive in both my mental and physical health and not sit by idle and wait on someone to come along and fix me. I'm not a doll, I'm not a puppet, and BOTH my family and I deserve better than what I am able to offer right now. "Better" is in there but it is just cloudy right now. Anywho, thanks for tolerating me and offering your words of wisdom!!


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## maybe not true love (Apr 4, 2014)

just because he glances at other women? 

Just because he looks at them it doesn’t mean that he is rejecting you. Look at it this way; just because you like steak, it doesn’t mean you hate ice-cream. Men notice other women in an idle she-looks-hot-too-bad-I’m-married kind of way,

You say he’s discrete and not throwing this in your face and that he’s a good husband in other ways. I say, count your blessings. Yes, it would be better if he stopped, but no one’s perfect. 


I don’t blame him for not wanting to go to counselling, since counselling almost invariably favours women, even in the format itself, let alone the things said. That said, some sort of mediation would be helpful so that you two can have a calm discussion about _each other’s_ faults and what _you’re each prepared to do_ to work on them.



I didn't have the time earlier to give this post my full attention and respond to all of what I wanted to say so I will address that now.


First, I visited the link you shared and I do notice people paying me attention. This is not flattering to me. Again, a problem I have is not being able to accept compliments because I don't believe that I am as attractive as people say so I dismiss them, but that isn't the point. Even before I got married I didn't like the attention for men that had a women I their lives that I knew of. Now that I am married the only attention that I need or desire is from my husband. Again, this way of thinking has been formed from events in my life and my husband was aware of this before he even decided to marry me.

I have explain my views about the looking and the differences that I am talking about with that subject so I won't go into that again. However, I would like to expand on the fact that while my husband denies what I say about it , some of his actions could be mere coincidence but it could be a little more to it that I'm not ready to just blow off. Some examples are: the trash is taken off mostly by me in the winter when ever it needs to be taken off. He takes it off mostly in the summer and lets it pile up to take on the weekend when he passes by the dump everyday on the way to work. Some would say no big deal - we also live at the lake and on his was to take off the trash he passes a marina/ boat dock and there are boat constantly passing under the bridge because the marina is in a cove. 
Another example and really probably the most troublesome, that has really gotten my mind racing, is I am able to predict his actions based different variables. I 'm not going to list each and every thing I notice.... I am not correct in all of my predictions, but I am correct in over half of them. It seems that he goes a little out of his way to see people. Now with this statement, he isn't creepy and for what I know of, still tries to keep it discrete... but there are just so many things that don't add up. Again, I could be blowing things out of proportion, but these might be subtle signs that might deserve my attention when considering the future. 
I do think that he is a good husband when I compare him to others, but there are other things about him that I am not mentioning because I don't feel that they are relevant given that my intention is to understand things about his attraction and actions towards others, not to throw him under the bus about what might be a bad quality or something that he needs to work on. 
As for not going to counseling, if I am understanding you correctly - you are saying that therapists tend to favor with the female? Mine actually has not done this and like anyone else - doctor, mechanic - whatever - you have to make sure that you find someone who cares about their job and not just the money. I am not interested in just having someone on my side. I am interested in getting better and just as I have tried to make that clear here, I also choose to get help from someone who will actually help us, not hinder us! My husband knows that my therapist has disagreed with some of the things I have said and I would expect that from a marriage therapist.
I do take some offense to the medication comment so that we can have a civil conversation. I am able to engage conversation and give proper respect when it is due and I expect the same. I try to look at things objectively (not an ability I have always had) and I expect the person to whom I am speaking and interacting with to extend the same courtesy to me. This is where my husband and I fail. BOTH of us. So the fact that I would be the only one that might need the medication is insulting. 
Furthermore, while I did take some things from your post, the fact that you "had a rough night" does not justify saying things in a "harsh" way. The fact that you recognized that your tone might come across offensive before you hit the submit button suggests to me that you apology was more of a disclaimer than a true apology. However, again, you did have some valid things to say that I can ponder on so thank you for you comment and your advice!


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## over20 (Nov 15, 2013)

OP, I want to suggest a book to read. It is called "Every man's Battle" by Steve Arterburn. He is a Christian author. It explains how men process sexual stimuli, which is completely different from females. At the end of each chapter there is a section for the wives to grow and learn about the husband. It is excellent

That being said, it is very graphic and pray before you read it.


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## maybe not true love (Apr 4, 2014)

Thank you, Over20, I will add it to my list of books to read!


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## over20 (Nov 15, 2013)

It really helped me a lot...I did have anger at first....but have really been able to help hubs through some tough times...it is very, very hard for a man NOT to look. They are wired TOO look. Rest assured that even Victoria Secret models husbands look. 

If you struggle as you read it...please Pm me...I will help.


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## MSP (Feb 9, 2012)

I appreciate your openness, MNTL. You seem like a genuine person. I have a handful of points for you.

I remember a pastor I knew once saying to someone, "Would you trash your car because the headlights didn't work?" It's not likely. You'd get it fixed. 

Your hubby sounds like he is insecure, like I said before. Your subsequent posts are confirming this more and more. He craves attention--and varied attention at that. I am going to openly confess something now that I've never mentioned online before: I was like that, too. I fell for anyone who paid me attention. I even felt that way to a lesser degree after marriage, although I struggled against it rather than embracing it. Now I no longer have this issue! At least, not in the same way or to the same degree.

For me the issue came through a variety of things that happened to me in my childhood. I had all kinds of messed up experiences that I carried with me in my head long after I'd been through them. At the root of it all was fear. In particular, there was fear of abandonment and rejection. I came across as quite confident in public, but I always had that fear. It made it very difficult to trust anyone, including my wife. 

In no particular order, here are some of the main things that helped me:

Working out at the gym. I know, it sounds like a red herring, but it is difficult to overstate the positive effect that this has had on certain areas of my thoughts. It just seems to balance the body chemistry amazingly well. Part of this is a feeling of greater control and less helplessness. And that translates to feeling more confident in situations where I'd previously have had a back-of-the-mind fear of abandonment. 

Facing my fears. Boy, I did not want to go through this, but it made me stronger. Well, mostly. I went through a period where I was actually rejected--or at least I felt that way--and I felt like there was no one to lean on for anything. I was sick and had other serious problems and I had to go through them on my own. In fact, I had people harassing me during some of the worst times. Not fun. But having to rely solely on myself and try to trust God brought me to a stronger place. Of course, I very much do not recommend that you instigate anything like this! However, if your husband can find a way to face these fears (which I assume he has), then he will be stronger for it. Whatever that looks like. 

Practice. Bit by bit, I practiced trust. It's hard to explain, but I really did just that. I would choose to trust and then stick with it. 

Letting go and taking responsibility for me. I had to slightly disassociate myself from other people and not feel so strongly bound to them in a way. I had to let other people be who they were, regardless of what I might feel about who that turned out to be. And I maintained my own life, taking responsibility for everything I possibly could. This also gave me a feeling of strength, which translated to less fear of abandonment. I still care just as much, but I have the strength to allow people to reject me if they want to.

I realized that my need to be liked was driven by a fear of rejection and knowing this allowed me to separate myself from that need. It was also a kind of sympathy. For instance, if I was hit on by a pretty girl I felt like I had to return her attention or she would feel rejected. And the last thing I wanted to do was to subject someone to that feeling! Plus, if I rejected them, they'd probably give me the cold shoulder and then I'd wind up rejected again, too. Becoming more confident and less needy overall helped fix this, because I got to a point where I simply felt less needy of other people's attention to help me feel good about myself. I did a lot of stuff to solidify my own ability to be happy without needing other people. And now I can also hold better conversations without feeling like I have to be centre of attention so much. Before, I could make friends in a heartbeat, but I could never maintain friendships nearly as well. I was hooked on meeting new people and having them like me. But no amount of that covered up the hole I had from fear of rejection. That fear had to be extinguished. 

Anyways, I hope some of that is useful. Oh, also, would you mind using more spaced paragraphs? I'm sure you'll get more readers by doing so.


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## MSP (Feb 9, 2012)

maybe not true love said:


> Again, a problem I have is not being able to accept compliments because I don't believe that I am as attractive as people say so I dismiss them, but that isn't the point.


Actually, this is a potential issue. You should learn to accept compliments without either insecurity or flirtation. 



maybe not true love said:


> As for not going to counseling, if I am understanding you correctly - you are saying that therapists tend to favor with the female?


Talk therapy in and of itself is a female-biased environment, simply because women like to talk about their feelings more than men do. So any talk therapy session is going to favour the female way of doing things, regardless, to an extent, of what is discussed. There are other intrinsic issues as well, but that'll do. Men work through things differently, much of the time. For men, an environment where they can actually do something, or even get it out by yelling, is helpful. This is why men do better when hanging out with a close male friend they can confide in rather than in a formal therapy situation. 



maybe not true love said:


> I do take some offense to the medication comment so that we can have a civil conversation. I am able to engage conversation and give proper respect when it is due and I expect the same. I try to look at things objectively (not an ability I have always had) and I expect the person to whom I am speaking and interacting with to extend the same courtesy to me. This is where my husband and I fail. BOTH of us. So the fact that I would be the only one that might need the medication is insulting.


Actually, I said mediation, not medication. A mediator can help to facilitate discussion if you are not getting anywhere otherwise. 



maybe not true love said:


> Furthermore, while I did take some things from your post, the fact that you "had a rough night" does not justify saying things in a "harsh" way. The fact that you recognized that your tone might come across offensive before you hit the submit button suggests to me that you apology was more of a disclaimer than a true apology. However, again, you did have some valid things to say that I can ponder on so thank you for you comment and your advice!


I'm glad you found something useful. Yes, I realized it was harshly worded, but I simply did not have the brain power to reword it any better at that point. So I posted it with the apologetic disclaimer as an explanation for my tone. My point was that although it may have come across harshly, I was not intending on hurting, but on helping.


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## maybe not true love (Apr 4, 2014)

MSP, I apologize completely for misreading and taking offense to mediation!! That, I agree with 100%! ) It is less offensive when I read it correctly! 

I totally agree with how men and women differ from working through pretty much anything, but especially emotional issues. I don't think that it is okay to cry about everything as women tend to do, but I think that society has done an injustice to guys for teaching them that it is not okay to show emotions. Not to say they have to adapt the same approach that women have, but maybe in therapy it would be beneficial (if he ever goes) to find a therapist that would take a little from both approaches to meet both of our needs. I think that this is where many lose their hope. In my case, in personal therapy, I have talked to and "fired", if you will, MANY therapists. One woman told me that it didn't matter if she understood where I was coming from as long as I got it out. Umm, no you do need to understand, you just don't always have to agree to help. ) Many others were pill pushers and believing that they knew best, took the pills. Well, this was only a setback to my recovery and added nothing of value to those now wasted years! So yes, I can agree that the talk method is something that might be a stumbling block, but not a brick wall. 

As for the not believing the compliments, it will take time. I will respond to your earlier post where more insight about this may come up, but for this comment, it is a constant battle and I can look in the mirror past all of the nasty that I see and find the cutie within but it is almost non existent when I am in the presence of others, including my husband, because of my performance anxieties which is related to the rejection and judgment fears. It seems to take auto pilot and keeps my in constant guard, which is both miserable and exhausting!

I did receive some good information from you. After the initial irritant over the tone and misreading of mediation, I processed it better.  I absolutely agree with he and I needing to sit down and discuss what is good, what is unacceptable, and steps to come to a solution about the subjects at hand. I think that this is excellent advice. Although, we have been at this for many years and I am realistic that if we move forward from this, I will have to give him time to heal the wounds I have caused him before this type of conversation can go as deep as it needs to go.


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

maybe not true love said:


> MSP,
> I am trying to live a Christian life and I don't deny that He hates divorce.
> 
> .....
> ...


If you read the Bible it will occur to you there is a lot of soothing and calming words to find, that can heal you.

You seem addicted to emotions and impulses to me (maybe the cause of your enormous overweight) and you have not enough of the values of moderation and soberness, also in your thinking, feeling and reacting.

So...think about that, and find in the Bible a source of healing for both mind and body if you value His words.


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## CharlotteMcdougall (Mar 15, 2014)

Meh. Hubby and I joke about the way he tries to sneak looks at scantily dressed women. He thinks that I don't notice. It is cute and hilarious when my husband takes a 2 second glance and looks right back at me. :rofl:

It is very normal for married people to notice attractive members of the opposite sex. What matters is the way the sexual attraction is managed. 

For example, I love to watch Sons Of Anarchy. I will admit that part of the appeal is some of the deliciously sexy actors with muscular bodies. My husband teases me about my little crushes: "Have fun watching your boyfriends baby!" I take all of that sexual energy and bring it into our bedroom.

It doesn't matter where we get our appetites, as long as we always eat at home.


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

maybe not true love said:


> ...
> I am aware and I am grown enough to admit that I am terribly insecure and I don't trust him, but this is something I am currently trying to work on. I gained 90 pounds due to some medication I was taking which just set my self esteem even lower than it originally was. So, I do understand where some of these feelings are coming from.
> 
> He is displaying normal male behavior, I think the problem is totally within yourself.
> ...


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## maybe not true love (Apr 4, 2014)

MSP said:


> I appreciate your openness, MNTL. You seem like a genuine person. I have a handful of points for you.
> 
> I remember a pastor I knew once saying to someone, "Would you trash your car because the headlights didn't work?" It's not likely. You'd get it fixed.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry but I don't know how to quote the comments in smaller boxes as you did so I quoted the entire message (or attempted to). 

To begin, thank you for your appreciation and acknowledgement of me seeming genuine. It means a lot that someone can see that through what seems to be a bunch of craziness! 

I also want to say that I am very sorry that you had bad experiences in your childhood that as many do, that you had to be burdened with in your adult life. Bravo for recognizing the unresolved issues and working through them to live a more fulfilling life!! 

The preacher has a very good point, you don't scrap a car due to bad headlights, although a bad engine (or anything else vital to the functioning of that car) is a different story. It doesn't mean that the car is still not repairable, it is just going to take extra work to get it running properly. If my husband never wants to work with me on things about our marriage, etc. then other options need to be considered. In my options another car (marriage) is nothing to be considered. Have I always thought this, yes, then no, and back to yes again. The reasoning for this is now I know where my heart is rather than just thinking it is with him. Now that doesn't mean leaving is totally out of the equation, to me it is simply, I have no room for anyone else in that area of my heart. You don't have anything left when you give someone everything of what you have and that is what I did with my heart. 

As for him having abandonment issues and what you describe about falling for other... he may have also felt this way. He may have tried to fight against them and I pushed him away so he has reverted back to these same feelings. Does that make sense? It sounded better in my head than how I am explaining it here.... I read a book that the idea around abandonment issues. The author, which I won't name because I do disagree with how she wrote the book, but I did like the label and description of the labels. She called them the love addict and the love avoidant. The love addict, which would be the clingy one, has a conscious fear of abandonment and an unconscious fear of intimacy. The love avoidant is just the opposite, with a conscious fear of intimacy and an unconscious fear of abandonment. Now these can obviously be for both male and female, the females tend to take the addict role and the male the avoidant role. These two types tend to be drawn to each other, in her opinion and others who have written on the issue. In my situation I am definitely the addict. I don't agree that I have all of the qualities, but enough to realize that I am the addict. In reading this book, I feel that my husband is the avoidant. One characteristic of this "type" (if you will) is to go to outside sources for their escape while the addict clings to the relationship and is in constant need to fix things in to make things better. It is a constant catch/release with these two types.
I say all of this to say, I do think that he is insecure also and is looking for that acceptance, but where I am looking for it within the relationship, is looking both inside and outside. I don't think that he would actively cheat, but I worry about other things because to me that is just as bad as cheating. I am very much aware of the distance in our relationship too which just adds to the anxiety.

I will try to shorten this up and not respond to everything I want to comment on, but you have given great advice on the steps you took to make your abandonment issues have less of a grip on you! Thank you! Not only is the advice helpful, but also the benefits behind them. 

To practice trusting is difficult. A conversation I had with my therapist went similar to this... short version: he asked me if I believed that he truly cared. My response was, yes, but only because I pay you to care. This is an idea I hold to everyone because I dismiss that they care to care for me. That there is always an alternate reason for them to care for me because these are the message I have received in life and it is extremely hard to rewrite those when you don't feel that you can trust yourself because you feel so crazy and you don't feel that you can trust others because you haven't been able to before. Now, this isn't a poor me spill - it just is what it is and I appreciate the fact that you not only give the steps, but you also make it personable. 

** I hope that this post makes sense. I am really tired chasing after the kiddies all day but I did want to thank you for you post - and others I didn't get to - but Lord willing, I can get some sleep and finish my comments in the morning because I see me in what you described and I have more to say (imagine that )but I am too tired to contribute anything worth while at the moment so please forgive the choppiness.


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## maybe not true love (Apr 4, 2014)

See_Listen_Love

I assure you that I don't see myself through some magic mirror I am certainly not one of these women that you see in a mini when she should be wearing something else to cover up. My point in others' reactions and that I know I am not an ugly person wasn't to make anyone think that I thought I was as attractive as some women that wears a size 6... or whatever size people find appealing. My point was that I still got complimented as I did before the weight gain so no, while I could no longer wear a bikini, people still found me attractive. For what ever reason pretty girls would still look to see if their guy was looking. Not all but as a disclaimer, I'll toss that in there. Maybe they were insecure too. Whatever the reasoning, they, for some reason, still saw me as a threat and not necessarily a threat, threat, but enough to check to see if their guy was looking, enough for them to change their body language. I don't change my body language and I'm not curious to see my husband's reactions to people unless I feel there is a need to. That along with compliments I received, I am able to come to the conclusion that I am not an ugly person. When people make comments like this they sound arrogant and I wanted to make sure that I didn't come across as such.

I don't think that I have disputed that these are my issues or been unclear that I am trying to understand things better not place blame on him for being a terrible person or anything of the like. As to your comment about his tolerance being exhausted, maybe so. But if this is true.. the weight came from the medication I was taking and as I stated before when I stopped the medication, the weight started coming off too. I was exercising while on the medication and trying to watch what I ate. When I notice the weight coming off, I did push myself a little harder to help drop the pounds faster, but the initial weight loss came from the stopping of the medication. If his attraction to me is this superficial then things will again change when I get older and the wrinkles show, or there is an accident and my looks happen to change again. In trying to understand things better, I have a foundation to work with, to know where he is coming from so that it is a softer blow when his attitude changes towards me again due to whatever life brings in the future. 

I will agree with you that this and the other issues I am trying to deal with are killing the relationship, however, my issues are not the only issues involved in this marriage and he will have to work on his too at some point. Again, my intentions are not to slam him and make him out to be some terrible person, but I'm not the only one responsible if the marriage ends. And I can assure you that there will be no other, I'm simply not interested. 

I absolutely agree that God's word is full of encouraging words and examples of how God's people triumphed over their problems and in this I will be able to find comfort. Thank you for your comments.


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## maybe not true love (Apr 4, 2014)

After some rest, I have decided that I am not going to explain things further as I had originally intended. I think that I am going to take some time to process the information given and do some more footwork to try to get a better handle on this. Thank you to all for your comments, advice, and personal views on the subject. Take care!


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

If I may advise, your elaborate posts show a lot of thinking and that may not always be good. Maybe you could pick up some kind of discipline that gives your life more direction, like a competitive sport, or an art form like sculpting.

That will i.m.h.o. help you process emotions and feelings in an unconscious manner and build good things for your personality.


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## maybe not true love (Apr 4, 2014)

See_Listen_Love said:


> If I may advise, your elaborate posts show a lot of thinking and that may not always be good. Maybe you could pick up some kind of discipline that gives your life more direction, like a competitive sport, or an art form like sculpting.
> 
> That will i.m.h.o. help you process emotions and feelings in an unconscious manner and build good things for your personality.



I totally agree with this entire post. I do over analyze, which as crazy as it sounds, analyze more to make sure that my emotions are not taking over and I am really seeing things in a situation that I am seeing. Does that make sense> I have been diagnosed with ocd and I fight against these reoccurring thoughts hourly. It is exhausting and painful. I absolutely agree that I need to get involved with activities that I can channel this energy into that would be beneficial to my health both mentally and physically. 

I do know that the overthinking in general conversation and all of the disclaimers come from my childhood. Where a conversation was and sometimes still is carried out like a chess game, always needing to stay 3 steps ahead or your treated as you're stupid and you are dismissed. Again another ingrain thinking process that needs development that I haven't mastered yet.

You have brought valuable ideas and thoughts to this conversation and I thank you for you honesty and desire to help! Take care.


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## MSP (Feb 9, 2012)

maybe not true love said:


> To begin, thank you for your appreciation and acknowledgement of me seeming genuine. It means a lot that someone can see that through what seems to be a bunch of craziness!


You're welcome. And don't feel like you have to respond to this post in detail. I'm sure you have much to think about already.



maybe not true love said:


> I don't think that he would actively cheat, but I worry about other things because to me that is just as bad as cheating.


Yeah, a lot of women feel this way. I personally do not think it is the same at all. I'll tell you why--there are two reasons. 

Firstly, let’s talk about the female and male sexual response, just very briefly. There was a well known study conducted a while ago on female sexual arousal. To cut to the chase, they discovered that women can get turned on but half the time they won’t have a clue that they are. Plus, half the time they think they’re turned on, but their bodies are actually not physically responding at all. The the correlation between whether a woman knows she is turned on or not is basically just random chance, 50/50. This means that you can be turned on and not have a clue, regardless of what you think. Of course, women know exactly whether or not they are attracted to someone!

Therefore, women tend to confuse arousal with attraction, whereas for a man, they are very separate and distinct things. So, women get offended when a guy looks at a woman, thinking he’s attracted to her, but it’s not the same kind of attraction that a woman feels. You can’t judge male sexual arousal or attraction by female sexual arousal or attraction, because they are not the same. 

Also, if you're thinking about the committing adultery in your heart bit that Jesus says, I think a better interpretation is that Jesus was talking about the intention of the heart, rather than just an appreciative glance. Jesus also said that if you hate your brother you are a murderer and if you call him a fool, you’re pretty much going to hell. Strong words! “Yes, officer, she is a murderer. I have concrete evidence: she said she hates him”.

Keep in mind that one of the main purposes of Jesus’ ministry was to set people free. He did not come to place a burden on people. That was what the Pharisees were doing and Jesus had some pretty strong things to say about that. So, with this in mind, let’s take a fresh look at the verses about adultery and the heart. How can it be viewed in the context of setting people free and not burdening them? Obviously, not with the thought that men have to watch their every move in fear that they’ll mess up. After all, adultery was punishable by death! There was no divorce for adultery. When it came to adultery you were stoned to death. Can you imagine if every time a man glanced at a woman they were killed for adultery? At the end of the first week the only men left would have been the blind ones. And what if they lusted after women by scent? Because, surely, it would amount to the same thing, right, since lust is lust? By now humans would be long extinct. Hardly the best result for taking Jesus’ words at face value.

So, how should we take them? 

The point is not to sit around thinking, “I must not do this! I must not do that!” The point is to walk with God and have love for God and everyone else. 

So, the question you need to ask yourself at this point is simply this: How can I show my husband love? 

In the book of Proverbs it says that God judges the heart, so stop trying to judge your husband’s heart. Sure, you’re not happy with his actions when he looks at other women, but don’t extrapolate what’s going on in his heart. That’s not for you to do.

The best way to have someone stop doing something is not to try to control them so they don’t do it, it’s to give them something better. 



maybe not true love said:


> I am very much aware of the distance in our relationship too which just adds to the anxiety . . . it is extremely hard to rewrite those when you don't feel that you can trust yourself because you feel so crazy and you don't feel that you can trust others because you haven't been able to before.


Yeah, I get that. I think you need to get out more and relax. Take walks in nature and things like that. You’re way too uptight and overthinking pretty much everything. Here’s the thing, you’ll never find peace by striving for it. You can’t fight your fears and find peace. You need to let go. You sound a bit OCD, actually. If that’s the case, feel free to message me, because I have a few tactics that help to relieve OCD. 



maybe not true love said:


> As to your comment about his tolerance being exhausted, maybe so. But if this is true.. the weight came from the medication I was taking and as I stated before when I stopped the medication, the weight started coming off too.


So, the medication made you gain weight and you had less control over your weight gain because of this. Hmm. Perhaps there are things in your husband’s life that exert an influence on his actions that he had little control over. 



maybe not true love said:


> If his attraction to me is this superficial then things will again change when I get older and the wrinkles show, or there is an accident and my looks happen to change again.


Ah, you’d be surprised at how faithful guys can be in the face of this stuff. And don’t start with the superficial label. Different things are important to men and to women. Men value appearances more than women do, whereas women are more concerned with a man’s access to resources (money, etc.). These things each reflect how well women and men will be able to produce and raise healthy offspring, which is the whole point of marriage from a biological standpoint. It’s not shallow; it’s how we are wired. Even the Bible reflects these values. Look at the story of Jacob and Rachel. It’s quoted a lot in a romantic context to show how dedicated Jacob was, because he laboured for fourteen years for her. But what does it say about his love for Rachel over her sister Leah? It says that Leah’s eyes were weak, but Rachel was beautiful in form and appearance. That’s why he loved Rachel and not Leah. Like I said, we are wired this way. It is what it is.


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## MSP (Feb 9, 2012)

maybe not true love said:


> I have been diagnosed with ocd and I fight against these reoccurring thoughts hourly.


Ha! I knew it! If you like, message me an email address and I will send you some tactics that work for reducing OCD.


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## maybe not true love (Apr 4, 2014)

I'll try to keep this short. ha, ha. 

Lusting is to desire which involves more than just noticing someone is attractive or not in one's opinion. Yes it is the intent of the heart. Looking once, maybe twice (gritting teeth) would be noticing the beauty. Anything further just to look takes it to another level. A certificate for divorce was established by Moses because of the hardness of their hearts. But all of this is really for another conversation.

I totally agree that when you are choosing a mate as described with Jacob and Rachel, attraction on all levels is different. He didn't want to marry Leah and worked for Rachel's hand but was tricked by the women's father because of his own thoughts about Leah. He didn't love Leah and then find more favor in Rachel later. This is my point.

Now, this is what I hear with men still look at other women... You guys still look at them the exact way, you just no longer act upon the feelings you have for them like you did when you were single. 

The way I look at it is - a new Christian is to change their thought process, to me so should those who choose to commit to one for life. Men and women. 

When I figure things out, I will just have to try to change my feelings towards my husband accordingly. 

** as far as the messaging goes - I'll have to install something to let me message bot you and over20 in the future. I am very interested on controlling this ocd and uh hum... try not to be so happy about thinking I had it.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

I haven't read every single post here, mostly because of the big blocks of text without paragraphs. Though it seems that is getting better.

You are a grown up woman. Here are some hard truths for you. This topic CONSTANTLY comes up, either in Men's Clubhouse or here.

1) Men look at women. We do. And the men who puff up like little hedgehogs screaming 'oh no...I don't look at women' will also admit that they FORCE THEMSELVES not to look at women.

So...you can, as a mate seeker, look for a man who can bench press 500 lbs. It is possible...but there aren't many men like that. Your pool of perspective men is very small.

Likewise, you can look for a man who doesn't look at other women, never looks at other women and is totally blind where other women are concerned. 

I imagine you would do better finding a guy who can bench 500 lbs.

2) It seems that you are married. If you are pulling this on your husband now, always having felt that a husband should NEVER look at another woman, you either told him this or you didn't.

I'm guessing 'didn't'. In which case going ballistic and huffing and puffing about this 'mandatory' trait he was supposed to have is rather unfair.

But say this is a recent thought of yours.

2) If YOU changed your attitudes toward marriage and what a man should be, that is on YOU. There are a billion Christians out there...and almost a billion different interpretations of the faith. You may think that looking is as bad as acting. He probably doesn't. It is blatantly unfair to constantly change the goalposts in the marriage on him.

If this is a deal breaker, divorce him. But that is on you. A respectful decent husband is not going to be easily replaced.

3) You seem to be Christian, so let's look at ALL the Book, shall we and not just the parts which serve as a theological club to batter your husband into submission.

- God seemed pretty open to polygamy. So merely looking isn't that bad.

- Jesus talked about 'looking with lust is a person committing adultery' but this is more of a cautionary note. He also said rich men aren't going to make it to Heaven essentially...but that is reading strictly in the most literal aspect of his word.

- Wives, submit to your husbands. Oh...don't like that part of the Book? What do you think that means? Do you think 'submit' means 'I get to control my husband'?

I would not normally use this verse in argument, but if you feel the need to swing the theological club at him...well...it swings both ways.

God ORDERED a prophet to marry a prostitute...and also ordered him to stay married even after she ran off and serviced half of Israel to prove long suffering and fidelity of God to Israel.

Here...you have accept that your husband occasionally glances at women.

4) The Bible mentions that we should be forgiving of our flawed brethren. People sin every day. YOU sin every day. And if I got your husband drunk and we had a man to man talk, I bet he could spill a number of 'flaws' in yourself which drive him crazy...but he accepts them because he accepts you.

In this matter, add it to the other flaws in his character that you have come to peace with.

5) You do not get to control what your husband does or thinks. Sorry...you just don't. You can only control how YOU react to his actions.

I love my wife. I won't cheat on my wife. But my wife is not the prettiest person in the universe...while still being a beautiful creature whom I value above ALL others. There are a lot of great things and people I want to do...but I don't act upon them because of the cost. That doesn't mean I am so blind, dull and stupid to not note that I have these opportunities.

But you can make as big a mountain out of this as you want to. I was raised by VERY CHRISTIAN PEOPLE. The slightest deviation from 'God's Word' (which surprisingly seemed to jibe exactly with their own opinions) was met with a rather strong set of punishments.

I learned to lie and hide my true self from them. Why?

When you raise the price of honesty too high, all you get are lies. 

One of my stock phrases that people need to hear more. If you want the 'true self' of your husband, you cannot shut down the channels of communication.

If you want a sock puppet of what you will accept...stay the course. This is one of the dangers of how some women approach this issue.

Wife and I were at a bar yesterday and she asked my opinion of the women I met there. I truthfully pointed out the prettiest (IMO) and the one I 'clicked' with the most. Why? She asked...and she could handle the truth. And by telling her this, she could more closely monitor when I was by these women...and by being honest, *I* forced myself to be mindful when I was around these women.

To want to pretend that one is always the prettiest of them all...um...wasn't that the attitude of the Wicked Stepmother in Snow White?


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## maybe not true love (Apr 4, 2014)

MSP said:


> Ha! I knew it! If you like, message me an email address and I will send you some tactics that work for reducing OCD.


After thinking it over, I don't think that I will send my email address. If it isn't something that can be shared on this site, then I'm not interested, but thank you.


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## MSP (Feb 9, 2012)

maybe not true love said:


> After thinking it over, I don't think that I will send my email address. If it isn't something that can be shared on this site, then I'm not interested, but thank you.


It's just that it's really long. I'll message you.


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## maybe not true love (Apr 4, 2014)

JCD - 

Thank you for your opinion. 

1) I never said that I didn't want him to not be able to say someone is attractive. The collection of sexual data is what should be what changes if someone is committed to others. If you and your wife (and any others, for that matter) are okay with this then that is great. Again, as I have stated before, I am here trying to understand better how he might be thinking.

2) My husband was very much aware of this before we got married.

2) I have taken responsibility for MY changed view about marriage and I am not criticizing anyone else for not sharing the same views that I do. I am in the process of figuring out if this is a total deal breaker or not by trying to figure out the reasoning behind the issue rather than just taking a "because that's how it is" approach. I want to know why it is and what the thought process is. And again, as I have stated before, I have ZERO intentions of replacing him. Again, MY decision and not one everyone has to follow.

3) Looking at a woman in lust is a warning and He says that a person has already sinned because of the intent of their heart. Holding the person accountable for their thoughts as well as their actions. Jesus "calls out", if you will, many that doubt or who's thought are not pure just by knowing their hearts. This is an illustration to strive to be pure through and through, not just in our actions to the world.

- I have no problem being submissive to my husband. And please let's not let sarcasm over take the discussion. Being submissive is not the same as not being allowed to have my own opinions and ideas and to be a door mat for my husband. So, to answer your question, no, being submissive doesn't mean controlling my husband, NOR does it mean that he is to control me. I could add more but I'll stop there.

I have to say that I am not familiar with this story right off, but I will look it up, read it, study it , and pray that I might come to an understanding of the meaning.

4)Absolutely, everyone sins and even those that repent can only get to heaven through grace. That is why Jesus died on the cross, to be the ultimate sacrifice because He was and is the ONLY perfect being. 

I don't need you to get my husband drunk for him to let you know what irritates him about me. Furthermore, he doesn't have to be the one to "out' those flaws. I am perfectly capable of doing this myself. More so letting people know my flaws to bash before I throw him under the bus for his. Where some try to hide their not-so-nice-side, I don't mind sharing mine, because if I keep it out of conversations where they are necessary to input, I'd be doing myself a huge injustice when receiving feedback that would help me with my issues. In forgiving other's flaws, we are not to judge someone's speck when we, ourselves, have a plank in our own eye. If I had a problem smoking, drinking, etc. fill in the blank. I can not rightfully try to help someone else on these same issues. I think that is why we all have different trouble areas, so that we can help others where we might be strong and receive help where we might be weak. 

If you haven't read any posts where I have stated that I am weak in this understanding and I want to learn more so that I can make a more informed decision, then here it is. I am trying to understand better and not just point a finger at him and say "no, no". I am not mentioning more flaws about him because they are irrelevant to the issue. I am not here to make him out to be some bad guy because I don't think that he is. I am merely trying to understand things better. The ONLY reason I am on this site is because there is a lapse in communication between us. And I am fully aware that just because some men have their opinions doesn't mean that my husband isn't more disciplined. Although, it may be that he does share in these views. I am here to get an understanding, process it, and related it to OUR relations that like everyone else's is unique to us. This isn't a cookie cutter relationship and I'm not looking for cookie cutter solutions. 

5) I know that I can't control his thinking. And here is where I know the attacks on me with flourish. I admit that ultimately, I am trying to , but, BUT, this is due to the fear of being hurt and not necessarily controlling his thinking but knowing what is going on so that I am not blind sided with a hurtful situation. A means of guarding myself, if you will. I know that this is unfair to him and this is why I am here so I can understand and try to FIX MY REACTIONS!

I am not asking him to be blind, dull and stupid. And I know that there are more people out there that is more attractive .. etc. than either of us. Your view of your wife is how it should be, that you value her above anything else. Not that you don't have the ability to notice if someone else is attractive or not. And actually thank you for sharing this because my husband and I have talked about this and I do believe his take on this aspect. It does get clouded when he looks at other people, but I do think there is hope in clearing it up.


I am very sorry that you were punished as strongly as it seems for questioning their views. That is part of growth. Look at Job, I don't envy him at all and when I am down, I do think about his story and count my blessings that I am not tested as strongly. God does command us to follow His rules if we want the promise of salvation, but we have to get to a point of somewhat questioning so that we can humble ourselves to see what He has to teach us. So, again, I am sorry that you seemingly we not allowed to make mistakes and allowed to have God work with in you. 

You wrote: "When you raise the price of honesty too high, all you get are lies. 

One of my stock phrases that people need to hear more. If you want the 'true self' of your husband, you cannot shut down the channels of communication."

A agree 100%! Even though it hurts to hear things, I do need to be his best friend and allow him to be honest without a major throw down. There does need to be room for acceptable boundaries (that we agree on with each other) so that one isn't in torment while the other thrives. That wouldn't be helpful to the situations wither. This is where I need to deal with the other issues I am dealing with. But again irrelevant information for this particular convo about the reasons behind the looking. 

"And by telling her this, she could more closely monitor when I was by these women...and by being honest, *I* forced myself to be mindful when I was around these women."
This is ultimately what I am asking for. And realistically in the wrong places, because my husband is the only one who has these answers. 



I think that I have gotten enough information to make clearer decisions and to have enough information to try to sit down and talk to him about it again. If he will communicate great, if not, then we will just have to go from there. Think you for your comments.
*******
Ultimately, unless, I feel the need to comment (which is likely, ha, ha) this is where my journey stops. I have talked to enough of you to gain some understanding and I find that I am repeating and defending myself too much. Everyone's comments are very much appreciated and I will try to go back, read, and look even more objectively at things. Thank you and take care!!


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## maybe not true love (Apr 4, 2014)

JCD said:


> I would not normally use this verse in argument, but if you feel the need to swing the theological club at him...well...it swings both ways.
> 
> God ORDERED a prophet to marry a prostitute...and also ordered him to stay married even after she ran off and serviced half of Israel to prove long suffering and fidelity of God to Israel.



Hi. I have looked up this story and read it and I offer this response. I also want to encourage you to not take what I have to say as the absolute answer, but to pray, read, and pray to God that He is reveal to you His will and meaning. We are all responsible to look it up for ourselves because we are responsible for our actions alone. Also, I am reading from the New King James version. I want to say too, that I will no stop studying this because, while God's word is not written to trick people, it is written so that we have to study it diligently as commanded by God to understand all of the lessons He has to teach us in their entirety.

This comes from the book of Hosea. Starting in Chapter one vs. 2 we are told that God spoke to Hosea and told him to marry one of harlotry. The second half of this verse tells us that she is from harlotry because "the land has committed great harlotry by departing from the Lord." 

I'll come back to chapter 2, but chapter 3 we are told that he bought her (Gomer) for fifteen shekels of silver and one and one-half homers of barley. In vs. 3 he tells her "You shall stay with me for many days; you shall not play the harlot, nor shall you have a man - so, too, will I be toward you."
Playing the harlot to me here can be of two explanations. One, she may be a virgin and he reassures she will not be expected to be an actual harlot and an explanation of what that means (to know a man) follow. Two, she will not play the role of the harlot nation (which I will explain later), not will she be expected to have a man. He also lets her know that he will act towards her as he is expecting her to be. Given the fact that he is a prophet and a man of God, I think that it is safe to assume that he is a virgin which is some reasoning for my first thought. He isn't going to worship other gods because his loyalty is with God in heaven. This is reasoning behind the second thought. Either way, he lets her know that he is going to act towards her as he has indicated that she will act.

Now, in chapter 2, the female harlot describe is that of the nation. I don't know why it is described as "her" but it is like we, today refer The United States of America as "her". Verse 2 when it says "...and her adulteries from between her breasts" - the nation is to cleanse their hearts of these adulterous attitudes towards God. They were worshiping baal and other false gods. God compares their attitudes towards Him to a wife and husband in Jeremiah 3:20 (for those that might want to look this up who may not know what is meant here... this is the book Jeremiah in the Bible, it is in the Old Testament. Chapter 3, verse 20.)
The is a cross reference (related passage) from Hosea 3:1. There are also passages referenced back to earlier chapter in Hosea to connect actions between Israel and Ephraim (discussed in later chapters). One example connecting the two is in Hosea 5:3-5. This affirms that this is a spiritual adultery and not of a marital nature. 

I will not go into a chapter by chapter, verse by verse explanation because I really don't think it is necessary. But the very last verse in the last chapter of Hosea states (Hosea 14:9):

"Who is wise?
Let him understand these
things.
Who is prudent?
Let him know them.
For the ways of the Lord are
right;
The righteous walk in them,
But transgressors stumble in 
them." 


So, while she was a child of harlotry nation towards God, she was not a harlot herself. I can, however, take the lesson from God to forgive my husband for any trespasses I feel he has done against me, just as God forgave those within the nations that would heard and turn back to Him. Please don't misunderstand this statement to think that I think I am anywhere near God, because I am not. 
My point with this statement is: I have standards, as does my husband, to how we should act in this marriage. His glances are not what bothers me, it is the intent and thoughts behind them is what bothers me. He and I have actually talked about this since my last post and we are in the process of changing what needs to be changed. My intentions here were to understand the thought process from other people and do all I could for him if he needed help fighting against any temptations. Not only as a Christian, but as his wife, I have an obligation to him to be his strength where he may be weak and he to me where I am weak so that we can both be better pleasing to God and better equipped to do His will. God also tells us that we are to forgive others even as Christ forgave us in Colossians 3:13. We are also told that if we Want our Father in heaven to forgive us, we must forgive others in Mark 11:26.


Thank you, again, for your comments because it sent me to God's word where I do find my peace and answers. Take care and be wishes to you.


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## maybe not true love (Apr 4, 2014)

I just want to be my husband's strength no matter where he may need it in this life. Whether it is of spiritual or secular nature! I know that I have failed him in this area because of my actions and reactions to things, but it is because I lack the maturity that only comes with lessons due to age, experiences, unresolved issues from my past. There is no need to comment on the areas in which he has failed me because this is about how I can help him and to add to my own personal growth. I can't offer him things that I don't have or that I don't understand. I am learning and maturing everyday. It is refreshing to know that while I'm here now, I won't be stuck here forever!


And actually, JCD, I even take something from the snow white reference.... Although, I still have my opinions, perhaps I focused too much on the wrong parts of that fairytale.


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

maybe not true love said:


> <<
> 1 So, while she was a child of harlotry nation towards God, she was not a harlot herself.


Once again the Lord spoke to me. And this time he said, “Hosea, fall in love with an unfaithful woman







who has a lover. Do this to show that I love the people of Israel, even though they worship idols and enjoy the offering cakes made with fruit.” 

2 So I paid fifteen pieces of silver and about ten bushels of grain for such a woman.

3 Then I said, “Now you are mine! You will have to remain faithful to me, though it will be a long time before we sleep together.” 
>>

So she was an adultrous woman. While being symbolic for the people of Israel, she was an unfaithful woman.
Harlot btw gets translated as wh*re by google.


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

> 3) Looking at a woman in lust is a warning and He says that a person has already sinned because of the intent of their heart. Holding the person accountable for their thoughts as well as their actions. Jesus "calls out", if you will, many that doubt or who's thought are not pure just by knowing their hearts. This is an illustration to strive to be pure through and through, not just in our actions to the world.


I acknowledge this explanation, but I think Christian culture is also developing through the ages. 

While we live in a sexualized society, my standards for what are acceptable are very much different from older generations, but still a bit 'backward' for the modern youth I guess.

This lagging behind is more typical for Christianity than an absolute norm on sexual behavior. See the Amish, they froze a moment in time. Not realizing it's just their moment. 

So the norm is relative to me, and I think 'looking in lust to another woman' is acceptable to use your words. I would rather say: Enjoying the beauty of the female form.

Like I can enjoy the looks of a beautiful car without obsessing with having one. Just admire and be happy with what is to be seen. I see no difference between enjoying nature on holiday and living in a city environment the rest of the year. 

All beauty is created to enjoy.


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## maybe not true love (Apr 4, 2014)

Hi there.

I will go back and reread the story to comment to your first post because unfortunately, I just can't do it right now. But, I will go back and look at it. I will also look up and compare a few translations (I was reading from the New King James) such as NIV and New American Standard because it is good to gain more understanding. So I promise I will go back and do this and get a response to you. 


As for our standards of how we look at this. The recommended book above has been a HUGE help in my progress. Actually my husband and I have talked and then fought and then talked again and I think that in reading this book, talking, and hearing God's word, I think that God is strengthening our relationship. It isn't going to happen over night because with anything good, it takes time, but God IS working in it. Before the closing prayer yesterday, the comment was "the world does look at us funny because we are just passing through." This is so true for those trying to live a Christian life because the DO look different. Now, not everyone that looks different is trying to live for God, but those trying to live for God dress different, react different to the dirty jokes, etc. They are called prudes. If you think about it, Jesus didn't participate in things that were ungodly and He was put to death. He fulfilled His purpose, but Jesus is who we are to strive to be like. Yes, we will mess up because we are all sinners and we fall short, but that doesn't mean that we can use this as an excuse to fall short.

This book is for someone who is actually willing to allow their wife to be where they get all of their sexual gratification. It is really a good book. Hard to read at times, but it is a good book! I do expect some to dismiss it though, because they enjoy what they are doing and they are not willing to change this habit. 

There have been things that has happened that I have not understood and I have prayed prayers that I thought that God had said no to (because every prayer is answered, sometime, the answer is just no or not answered the way we would like) BUT it turns out God was working. Not in my time but in His time and in His way! I see now, why other things happened first. It is ALL coming around full circle and it is AMAZING! Satan tries so hard to get us down so that we turn from God and weaken our relationship with Him, but I'm NOT going to let him ruin mine! 

Anyways, I'll go back and study the other some more and get back with you.  Have a great day!


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