# Wanna know why some of us stay?



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Here it is, nicely condensed. I might add that absolutely everything in this article is accurate according to my experience.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/02/fashion/good-enough-thats-great.html?hp


----------



## over20 (Nov 15, 2013)

Very good article!! Dh and I have been married 21 years, some good and some bad. During the tough times I always told myself it will get better and for the most part it has. We are not perfect spouses to each other and that's ok. No one is going to be a perfect spouse.

Dh and I also told ourselves we don't want our children to be a statistic. This has forced us to work through any problem or issue for the sake of the family unit. 

We want to be that older couple that looks back at the end of their life and says "We did it!", and have peace about our marriage and life we lived.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I read the article. I have been with dh for nearly 21 years, married for 20 this year. I still feel passion for him, or at least as much passion as I ever did. 

I didn't start out "in love," though. I was attracted to dh, physically, but the mental and emotional connection, esp. the emotional connection, was like the strongest magnet I could ever feel. I still just cannot resist him. It's like his presence just has incredibly calming, soothing power over me, and I end up doing things I never thought I would. I guess I'm "under the influence" .

Can you give some examples from the article, Cletus, that made you relate to it so well?


----------



## Accipiter777 (Jul 22, 2011)

" she puts her marriage ahead of motherhood. "

Not ashamed to say my wife and I do this. Within reason of course! We do things as a family, we do lots as a couple.


----------



## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

Accipiter777 said:


> " she puts her marriage ahead of motherhood. "
> 
> Not ashamed to say my wife and I do this. Within reason of course! We do things as a family, we do lots as a couple.


Same sex marriage?


----------



## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

I went from restorer (failed) to bitterly resigned (unhappy place) to appreciatively resigned (acceptance), while remaining aware of what was lacking. I eventually realized that I could do better than appreciative resignation (even if that meant being alone) and divorced her. I found my present relationship, and became part of the rare happier-than-thou minority, which has lasted 14 years so far.


----------



## 2times2 (Apr 21, 2013)

Maybe it is just me, but I found this article pretty depressing.
Wish I would have gotten more out of it!

Thanks for sharing though, I'm trying to learn as much about all of this as I can!


----------



## over20 (Nov 15, 2013)

Accipiter777 said:


> " she puts her marriage ahead of motherhood. "
> 
> Not ashamed to say my wife and I do this. Within reason of course! We do things as a family, we do lots as a couple.


Your wife sounds very wise. After all we are wives first and mother's second. Children grow up and leave, my relationship to my husband is forever.


----------



## skype (Sep 25, 2013)

Trying2figureitout said:


> Same sex marriage?



:scratchhead:


----------



## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

2times2 said:


> Maybe it is just me, but I found this article pretty depressing.
> Wish I would have gotten more out of it!
> 
> Thanks for sharing though, I'm trying to learn as much about all of this as I can!


I found it depressing too. "Appreciatively resigned" is as good as it gets?


----------



## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

skype said:


> :scratchhead:


" she puts her marriage ahead of *motherhood.* "

Not ashamed to say *my wife and I* do *this* (ahead of motherhood). Within reason of course! We do things as a family, we do lots as a (same sex?) couple.


----------



## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Trying2figureitout said:


> " she puts her marriage ahead of *motherhood.* "
> 
> Not ashamed to say *my wife and I* do *this* (ahead of motherhood). Within reason of course! We do things as a family, we do lots as a (same sex?) couple.


And if you look at HIS profile, then you know HE is not in a same sex marriage with HIS wife. 

Most of us read between the lines and saw that HE meant that they both put their marriage above PARENThood.


----------



## skype (Sep 25, 2013)

Trying2figureitout said:


> " she puts her marriage ahead of *motherhood.* "
> 
> Not ashamed to say *my wife and I* do *this* (ahead of motherhood). Within reason of course! We do things as a family, we do lots as a (same sex?) couple.


Sits on hands. No snark shall come from this keyboard today. Where is the inappropriate joke thread when I need it?

Sorry, T2, I do not understand how you think that doing things together makes you a same sex couple.

Walden's point is that the husband and wife should be at the center of the household, and the children, while loved, should not be the focus of all of the interactions between the parents. They are husband and wife first, and parents second.


----------



## Oldrandwisr (Jun 22, 2013)

A good article. Most people I know with successful marriages fit the descriptions. Just wanted to mention some of the comments on the article went even more in depth and are worth reading.


----------



## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

Maricha75 said:


> And if you look at HIS profile, then you know HE is not in a same sex marriage with HIS wife.
> 
> Most of us read between the lines and saw that HE meant that they both put their marriage above PARENThood.


English langauge is a great thing


----------



## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

skype said:


> Sits on hands. No snark shall come from this keyboard today. Where is the inappropriate joke thread when I need it?
> 
> Sorry, T2, I do not understand how you think that doing things together makes you a same sex couple.
> 
> Walden's point is that the husband and wife should be at the center of the household, and the children, while loved, should not be the focus of all of the interactions between the parents. They are husband and wife first, and parents second.


Um yea


----------



## Accipiter777 (Jul 22, 2011)

Trying2figureitout said:


> Same sex marriage?


What difference does it make?

Did you read the article?

Did you wonder why I put that in quotes?


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

What a totally depressing article.

Rodents on a wheel, trying this and that to change the fact that the wheel, while moving, isn't going anywhere! Ugh!


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

over20 said:


> Your wife sounds very wise. After all we are wives first and mother's second. Children grow up and leave, my relationship to my husband is forever.



Wives come and go, children are forever.

A child is 50% you. A wife or husband, even in the best of relationships, will never be 50%. For me at least.


----------



## Accipiter777 (Jul 22, 2011)

I didnt marry my wife to be a "come and go". For me at least.


----------



## yeah_right (Oct 23, 2013)

Accipiter777 said:


> " she puts her marriage ahead of motherhood. "
> 
> Not ashamed to say my wife and I do this. Within reason of course! We do things as a family, we do lots as a couple.


I admit that I got so wrapped up in the kids for a few years that poor H felt left out. There needs to be balance and I am now of the opinion that the marriage needs to be a larger priority than it is usually is for most moms. My kids are out of the house now. H remains. This is the person who will change my Depends and race me down the hall of the nursing home with walkers. Our kids will start families of their own. H is the one who will be there every day (hopefully) until death.


----------



## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

I don't think anyone needs to be put before anyone else in a family. However, many women - and even men - can begin to neglect and ignore their spouses when children come along. The children can become a buffer, placed between a married couple and this can sever intimacy. Not to mention what the idea of motherhood can sexually do to a woman.

But no matter, my marriage isn't perfect by any means - but I wouldn't stay if I didn't believe in happy endings and romance and that two people can do what they put their minds to.


----------



## committed4ever (Nov 13, 2012)

I found the article to be quite whiney. Too bad it's promoting settling for mediocrity in marriage


----------



## BostonBruins32 (Nov 2, 2013)

would anyone have decided to get married if this article was listed as 100% accurate for whats to come?

Nobody would sign up for this. What a depressing article. But rings very true.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Accipiter777 said:


> I didnt marry my wife to be a "come and go". For me at least.


None of us does. And for 25 years it was great. Then poof. 

If one is lucky, poof will happen at year 5 not 25.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

john117 said:


> Wives come and go, children are forever.


John, John, John . . . it doesn't have to be like this. It's not like this in my marriage.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

committed4ever said:


> I found the article to be quite whiney. Too bad it's promoting settling for mediocrity in marriage



I think the author just hasn't seen enough happy marriages.


----------



## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

jld said:


> John, John, John . . . it doesn't have to be like this. It's not like this in my marriage.


Nor in my parents', nor in the marriages of various friends who have been married 30+ years. And mine? Same with mine. We have our problems, but it's certainly not mediocre...and I never feel as if I have "settled". My husband is my life partner. Yes, we focus quite a bit on the kids, but they will move out one day. We need to keep OUR relationship alive...or there will be nothing when the kids are grown and moved out.

Also, John, you can't say "children" are forever, either. Quite often, you will see the children move and forget all about mom and dad. They don't have time for their parents anymore. The spouse should be the "forever" person.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Dh especially has put a lot of emphasis on our kids, always telling me when they are older, things will be different.

On one hand, I admire his dedication to his children. Otoh, I have really felt the lack of being a priority, at least in comparison to what I wanted. Other women have told me I am way more of a priority, even at the low points, than they may have ever been to their husbands.

Kids need their parents. We have to sacrifice at least sometimes for their needs. But the parents are the foundation, and the foundation needs to be strong. It is what supports the kids.

I just don't want to see the kids sacrificed for the marriage. Both need to be important.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I would rather depend on nobody - my children will likely be a continent or three away like I did when I moved to the USA.

My parents came to visit every year or two, I visited them. The world is a much smaller place today than it was 30 years ago. It's not going to happen unless someone forgot to pay the satellite phone bill


----------



## Sandfly (Dec 8, 2013)

Trying2figureitout said:


> English *langauge *is a great thing


Once you get the hang of it, the syk's the limit!


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I think if both spouses are good with "good enough", then this can work fine. I have known a lot of passionless marriages that never divorced. Not really "happy" but definitely not horrible marriages.

OTOH, if you think your marriage is only "good enough" but your spouse doesn't, is actually in love with you, and feels so happy and lucky to have you...then I don't think this is a good way to be married. Your spouse would get hurt by this eventually.

I also think that if you would really leave if you felt you could "do better" but you don't, so you don't leave...this is also sad and unfair to your spouse.


----------



## askari (Jun 21, 2012)

Motherhood first..?? Just as it should be - TO A POINT!

All men know that for the first couple of months the new born comes before anyone and everything else. 
However you must not forget that first you were you then you were your partners lover then lover/spouse.

Men know they will get relegated to the bottom of the pile for a time, the problem is many of us end up staying there. Our wives get so wrapped up in the children and themselves that they forget about us.
We descend into sexless and emotionless marriages. Why do many of us stay?

- because of the joy our children bring us. We couldn't live without them. But, when they leave the nest and start their own lives, so will we.
The wives that sent us into an emotional desert years ago will end up in the same place themselves but without our children.

I was chatting to a 'friend' last week....he and his wife had their first born three years ago and the next one is due any day. He said he had no idea how the second one was conceived because since the birth of their son three years ago, even the family dog was above him in the pecking order!


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

I still remember being in a troubled marriage while first wife was going through some mothering issues. I agree with much of what is being said about that, but I have to wonder.....Did she lower me, her husband to the bottom of the pile, or did she actually lower herself to the bottom of the pile? If we accept that women like sex as much as men and desire it as much as men, don't we also have to consider they probably quit thinking about their bodies as a sexual thing and started thinking of them as a, "baby making machine"? I don't know for sure, but I really do wonder. 

Everyone has their breaking point. We all justify our actions. That doesn't make them right when they do it, just, "right for them at that time".


----------



## usmarriedguy (Dec 9, 2013)

I do not understand why anyone would view appreciatively resigned as depressing.

Rarely in life is anything even close to perfect. If you can't be happy living amongst imperfection than life will be unnecessarily unpleasant. 

While I would consider myself a restorer I learn to be somewhat pleasantly resigned to a less than ideal sex life. Although I still consider myself to be actively engaged in trying to make it as good as possible. 

I do not think the article identifies all possible types because the typical LD does not see lack of a great sex life as actually being a problem. The tend to believe that their HD spouse is making problems where none actually exist. They are quite happy with sex once a week or month or year. Why fix something that isn't broken?


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

jld said:


> Can you give some examples from the article, Cletus, that made you relate to it so well?





> THOSE WHO QUASH. There are many who choose to quash their unfulfilled desires, to accept their marriage for what it is and figure out how to feel O.K. about it.
> 
> Oh, well, they tell themselves, I still have a lot to be thankful for. I love my spouse and my family. I love my house and my garden. So we aren’t having wild sex every day or every week or even once a month (or ever). You can’t have everything, they argue. Be grateful for what you do have.
> 
> There’s a temptation to dismiss quashers as being in total denial, but they aren’t. They just don’t see the point of wallowing in self-pity when they have accomplished what they hoped to in terms of marriage, family and career. As with most personality types, there’s a spectrum, running the gamut from the bitterly resigned to the appreciatively so."


This passage. When you have a divide between you in your marriage, and you're determined to not let that divide utterly derail you, something has to give. If you're with a good person, there will be some give and take, with both of you giving some. But one will surely feel a keener loss than the other. One of you is giving work and some effort to meet your partner's need. The other is really not having that need met, even if married to a good person who is an otherwise fine spouse. Resignation is necessary. Appreciative resignation puts things in a more balanced light - sex really isn't the ONLY thing for which to be thankful (and I did put this in the sex section for a reason).



> Ultimately every member of a dedicated restorer couple will become a marital-boredom scholar, reading everything that explains why living and having sex with the same person for 30 or 40 years can get boring and what to do about it when it happens to you. In their pursuit of such knowledge, these couples convert their night stands from leisure-reading podiums scattered with travel magazines and suspense novels into social-science libraries stacked with ominous-sounding book titles such as: “I Don’t,” “Marriage Shock,” “Against Love” and “Mating in Captivity.”


And this. My bookshelf has Schnarch, Wiener-Davis, and a handful of others of lesser renown. I'm a knowledge junkie, but my restorer years are behind me. My sometimes-grim sometimes-grateful acceptance years are in their ascendancy. 



> Inevitably, as the intellectually curious people they are, restorers will return to their original and most perplexing question: How much do we have a right to expect from marriage?


And there you go, in a nutshell. I'm not the perfect husband, and I don't expect the perfect marriage. But I could have many other problems that are much worse than the one I operate under now - gambling, alcoholism, infidelity, psychological disorder... That I can't be happy with my current sexual situation is every bit as much my fault as it is that of my wife, or rather, it's neither of our fault, really. So the expectation that she has to somehow fix it is just as unreasonable. Better to be sad about what I can't have, happy for what I do, and appreciative of someone willing to spend 30+ years of their life with me.

No one ever said that you had to get everything in life that you ever wished for to find happiness and contentment. Quite frankly, the western "Me First" attitude has always left me feeling a little empty anyways. 

I married a good person. For that I am grateful, even if there will never be hot monkey sex on the chandelier.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

If you're dealing with your vanilla flavored LD I agree.

How many of us deal with partners who are just vanilla LD versus active LD - actively metering out affection etc?


----------



## Thunder7 (Jan 2, 2013)

My wife and I get the concept of 'marriage before parenthood'. And, within reason, that's what we practice. The kids have never gone without or been neglected in any way. We've always taken family vacations and done things as a group, even if the kids, as they got older, didn't really want to.

But, we have never lost sight of the fact that we were a couple before the kids came along and will be a couple once the kids are all gone. We went to my wife's high school reunion a few years ago and were taking to a couple who does EVERYTHING with their kids. I asked, 'don't the two of you just get away for a weekend, or something?'. They looked at me like I had three heads. The concept of doing something without the kids was completely foreign to them. My step brother and his wife are the same way. 

I just tell people to remember they were a couple first, before kids, and if they wants to be a couple after the kids they HAVE TO stay connected. Otherwise, once the kids are gone, you'll look at your spouse and realize, 'I don't even know this person anymore'.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

john117 said:


> If you're dealing with your vanilla flavored LD I agree.
> 
> How many of us deal with partners who are just vanilla LD versus active LD - actively metering out affection etc?


Keeping a magazine full of "HD killers" with one in the chamber is a whole other proposition altogether. Active malice requires no amount of compassion nor understanding.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Caring about my children does not mean that I neglect my marriage. In a healthy marriage when both partners are engaged that is. 

But in a not so healthy marriage I get to make a decision between my happiness elsewhere or my kids' future, I think that the kids win out in my case. 

So it's not just a "marriage or kids" type question. You need to dig deeper.

My wife, faced with the exact same question chose her well being over her kids.

It would be too simple to abstract it to a "more sex versus paying for med school"  if this was when they were 5, maybe.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

I should add that it takes time to move through the various stages in a long term marriage. 

When our sexual issues first became obvious after our first year of marriage, I blamed her. She was broken. It was her fault. If only she gave a damn then we could fix this problem. 

Then I moved on to "pity poor ol' Cletus" and the life he's missed out on. Why oh why didn't I take the blue pill? This probably consumed 15 or more years of my marriage.

Eventually, it became clear(er) to my slow brain that what was really at the root of our issues was nothing more complex than two people with two very deeply rooted fundamental ideas of what constituted a satisfying sex life. Patterns, learned or imprinted, that were not going to change. It got easier then, with no one to blame other than a cosmic roll of the dice and the naivete of marrying young.

So that's part of what I advocate here. Unless your spouse is trying to make your life miserable, they are who they are. Maybe who they are is not very compatible with who you are in bed. Maybe you should be really careful about finding out if that's the case before you get married, by whatever means you find morally acceptable and reasonably accurate. Because thinking that a loving spouse will change something this innate to her personality and become the thing you always wanted? That's a long shot at best. I don't bet on long shots. Maybe you shouldn't either.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> I also think that if you would really leave if you felt you could "do better" but you don't, so you don't leave...this is also sad and unfair to your spouse.


You have to define "do better", right? I could have found a better beddy-time partner, of that I have no doubt. I _might_ even be able to pull it off today, though at 50, introverted, balding, gray, with a few pounds too many it's not a slam dunk. 

Could I find a better overall spouse? That's a fishing expedition with a much lower chance of success.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Cletus said:


> You have to define "do better", right? I could have found a better beddy-time partner, of that I have no doubt. I _might_ even be able to pull it off today, though at 50, introverted, balding, gray, with a few pounds too many it's not a slam dunk.
> 
> 
> 
> Could I find a better overall spouse? That's a fishing expedition with a much lower chance of success.



Let's say my techs in the lab came up with an instant "charm ray" that I could zap on any unsuspecting female age 18 to 58 that I know. The ray would instantly charm them out of their spandex and we'd live happily ever after.

Do you know lots of available, reasonably looking, nice personality, no kids or grown kids, low hang ups, nice income ladies that would fall for the ray? I have a very wide circle of friends and at our age anyone meeting these requirements would have more skeletons in their closet than I care to think. I could even add married women I know in the pool and maybe I could think of exactly one person that fits the bill. Late 40s, charming, voluptuous, one kid, but spends like it's going out of style. And a bubbly personality that would drive good ole Dr. Grumpy Cat to the rafters after a week (we've gone on a cruise together a couple times and speak from experience )


----------



## skype (Sep 25, 2013)

This is a really interesting thread, Cletus, and you have clearly articulated the complicated reasons why you feel that there are strong reasons for staying with an LD partner, when everything else is good.

I tried to picture myself in that situation, and I am not sure what I would do about it. However, passion is very important to me, and I would feel that I was missing out on a crucial aspect of life if my spouse did not share my desire to plumb the depths of intimacy. Gee, that sounds so melodramatic! But it is one of my most important needs.

I do not have an exciting job, nor do I possess any great talent. I pour my passion into my marriage, and that provides color and joy to life.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

skype, what a beautiful post!


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Cletus said:


> You have to define "do better", right? I could have found a better beddy-time partner, of that I have no doubt. I _might_ even be able to pull it off today, though at 50, introverted, balding, gray, with a few pounds too many it's not a slam dunk.
> 
> Could I find a better overall spouse? That's a fishing expedition with a much lower chance of success.


What I mean is that is one spouse is not in love and not happy...but the only reason they stay is because they figure they can't do any better on the open market...then to me, they should leave and be alone anyway because it is unfair to their spouse to feel this way about them.

Who would want to be with someone who was only staying because they felt they couldn't do better?

It doesn't really sound like this is you as you sound like you do love your wife.


----------



## usmarriedguy (Dec 9, 2013)

I guess most of us would do things different the second time around. People often get married with quite a but of naivety. We think that the spouse is just inexperienced or shy and will come along. 

Sometimes the sex is fairly good for the first couple of years. 

I knew full well before getting married that sex was not high on my wife's bucket list and she has very little interest in exploring intimacy. At the time I guess I figured that it was acceptable and I would most likely not be able to do better. I still feel that way. 

I still have not totally given up on her though. I like this from jld: 



jld said:


> I didn't start out "in love," though. I was attracted to dh, physically, but the mental and emotional connection, esp. the emotional connection, was like the strongest magnet I could ever feel. I still just cannot resist him. It's like his presence just has incredibly calming, soothing power over me, and I end up doing things I never thought I would. I guess I'm "under the influence" .


I guess my wife and I both started out this way. This last few years in particular though (married since 2000) I have felt both my wife and I have gained a much deeper emotional connection and it continues to strengthen and that continues to improve the sex life.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Leaving and being alone is a viable option - we see a lot of that at my age. But leaving has costs as well. 

If the costs of leaving are manageable then by all means one should do so. This is not always the case.

Eventually if everyone with a problem - no matter how simple - leaves this increases overall resentment, and we see people picking - and dumping - partners as easily as they do cell phone plans. It's not a viable long term strategy.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

john said: "Eventually if everyone with a problem - no matter how simple - leaves this increases overall resentment, and we see people picking - and dumping - partners as easily as they do cell phone plans."

And where do you see this?

Do you mean your own friends?

Because I don't know anyone who considers a divorce after a long term marriage "as easy as picking a cell phone plan".


----------



## usmarriedguy (Dec 9, 2013)

I think he is saying:
"if" that where the case "It is not a viable long term strategy."


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Yes and I just don't get the point, since no on one this thread is advocating people should just up and run away from their marriages on the first sign of trouble, and since we don't see it happening like that. Soo....the point?


----------



## usmarriedguy (Dec 9, 2013)

I think the point is that people just can't leave a marriage simply because it is not ideal. -Thus the reason people stay in marriages.

Perhaps he thought that you made it sound much easier than it really is:

"What I mean is that is one spouse is not in love and not happy...but the only reason they stay is because they figure they can't do any better on the open market...then to me, they should leave and be alone anyway because it is unfair to their spouse to feel this way about them."

Personally I think people can cohabitate for other reasons without needing to be in love. People are generally social and do not like being alone.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Ok well, if you are quoting me then...Personally, I don't care if it is "easy" or not for the person who is not in love with their spouse but doesn't leave just because they don't think they can do better on the market. I only have empathy for the "unloved" spouse in that scenario. Being not in love but being too selfish to let them go so that they might find someone who DOES love them is inexcusable, IMO.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

+1

Think of issues in three categories, divorce yesterday, annoying but can generally live with the issue, and harmless...

Go from there to which is which.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Nobody is holding the "unloved" into a bad marriage other than practical considerations. And I'd be willing to bet that the "unloving" partner has run out of options all while the "unloved" partner (the LD in our case) basks in their withholding glory.

Besides, if someone became "unloved" they will likely become "unloved" with their next partner (ergo, divorce rates for second marriages)

People don't get it not because they're with the wrong partner but because they don't get it, period.

I can't help but wonder what would happen if I had gotten married in Europe and stayed there after college in the USA. I'd probably marry some trust fund babe with a building worth of rental flats, she'd be making way more from rent than I would teaching intro psychology in college, and I'd be the trophy husband the academician. A few of my friends did just that. Quite livable. With some luck i would be getting all the coeds I could handle 

My wife, meanwhile, would have been married to some party apparatchik with little education but much money, and power, maybe teaching function theory in some women's college, and so on. The LD would be handled either the good way (comrade apparatchik gets a concubine or three) or the dark way which I will leave to our audience's imagination...

Tell me again who's better off?


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

John - - I understand that due to your experience, you think all people in marriages are deliberately cruel to each other, since you are straight up promoting marital warfare ... (like it has worked so well for you).

I'm glad that I don't know anyone but you who promotes such a hateful picture of marriage.

I was in a sad sexless marriage, and I'm divorced and remarried to the man of my dreams. It was awful to divorce, wasn't easy, took years to get there and then years to get over it. Yet *I* am better off. Doesn't sound like you are.

But please do tell me again all about how the kids must go to med school.....


----------



## usmarriedguy (Dec 9, 2013)

I do not know if they (LDs) really care that much. You seem to be implying that John staying is depriving her of something she needs or wants. 

It seems to me if Johns wife was actually interested in love she would probably be creating a loving environment like most of the women here at TAM who are actively engaged in creating a loving relationship. 

I do not see how his wife did not check out first.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I don't know why it even really matters to John since he has said and admitted more than once that sex isn't that important to him.


----------



## usmarriedguy (Dec 9, 2013)

All I was saying is that people can stay married for other reasons besides love and passion and whether good are bad, John is an example of that. Mutual cohabitation for convenience.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Which I totally agree with and that is what I said on my post #33.

However, I don't consider John in that category, because he openly promotes marital warfare to OTHER people, and meanwhile makes a constant barrage of messages about how horrible his wife is. Projecting upon everyone that your hateful sad marriage is how others should look is to me, totally strange and weird. That's why I speak up against him. His message is destructive and harmful.


----------



## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

I am staying because my options at this point are limited. Talk about stuck! Our relationship had fallen apart, my depression (i now realise) and the narky, critical remarks I spewed off and on over years took it's toll. I did not want her around at times and she felt it, but I was SAHD (still am sort of) and I had a role to fulfill. It was an unspoken agreement to raise our children the best we could. Actually now I think of it we might have benefited had we been smart enough to sit down and talk about our expectations our hopes etc. But we didn't, we still don't. Since I uncovered her affair it has gone from heated hostility to inertia. We coexist. That's it; you can dress it up all you like but you can't get a silk purse from a sow's ear. I would leave now but I do not have the means. Even if my WS could manage any remorse I would still insist that a physical relationship is important, a necessity. She doesn't see it that way - in fact now that I have completely dropped any hints about intimacy I have noticed how those moments when intimacy could be possible are shut down - how she observes the possibility and the subtle ways she heads it off at the pass, so to speak. No way to live.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> Which I totally agree with and that is what I said on my post #33.
> 
> However, I don't consider John in that category, because he openly promotes marital warfare to OTHER people, and meanwhile makes a constant barrage of messages about how horrible his wife is. Projecting upon everyone that your hateful sad marriage is how others should look is to me, totally strange and weird. That's why I speak up against him. His message is destructive and harmful.



You must be reading half of what I write...

My suggestion of marital warfare works only to the extent that it is a wake up call. If there's a problem actively bring everything to the table and either resolve it or live with the consequences.

I don't always advocate warfare, incidentally. Only in select cases where the marriage is pretty much flatlined. 

As a hyphenated American I take pride in having learned the value of direct open communication AND confrontation if that is what it takes.

Marital warfare has one goal only - make sure both partners understand there is an issue. Games like MMSL and the like pretend everything is fine until oops...

I really suggest you think of the cases where such an approach is suggested versus the many cases where I advocated staying and working hard to resolve things.

If things are not fixable, then either bid your time and take out of the relationship as much as you can - incl financial or material - and bail out when the goose that lays the golden eggs goes thru menopause.

There's no one size fixes all in this game. Some people understand reason and some don't.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Nope, I'm reading it all, have read it all, have listened to you say the same thing over and over...I'm not mistaken in that you come across as if other situations are comparable to yours and you advocate marital warfare to nearly all of them, not to mention the constant contempt of your wife, as in your last sentence above.


----------



## PinkSalmon13 (Nov 7, 2013)

I've read all the posts here, seeking a sympathetic storyline, but to no avail. I'm somewhat envious of people who have ENOUGH left amongst the myriad charms of marriage to hold it together and not allow what's lacking to scramble their brains.

There are going to be cases where you know, for sure, that it's simply no longer viable because too many of the aspects of the marital dynamic have been torched.

For me, some cutting comments were followed by a technically sexless marriage.....which in turn started me down the road to depression and anxiety. From there, more comments fed right into a zero-sex marriage (six years now), which sent me into a tailspin of emotional and mental horrors. A near complete breakdown in communication has ensued. Civil rommates at best, keeping it together for the kids (who are now all young adults, only one left in the house), I suppose.

But there's so little left now. I certainly don't 'appreciate' what has become of the marriage or the person I married. I feel soul-crushed and I can't even imagine staying in this situation much longer.

I don't even have delusions that life will be better afterwards. I just know I'd be free.

So for those who manage to hold it together, you ARE blessed in that there must be ENOUGH of a relationship, or friendship, to hold it together. 

When lacking all forms of affection, intimacy, sex.......when communication is bland utterances of what needs to be done.....and when your spouse goes around acting like this is all okay, has a life that is acceptable for her needs, and has the audacity to ask you 'what's wrong', then shoot down your responses to the obvious.........well, the article didn't quite make it as far as addressing those of us way beyond 'resignation' or 'acceptance'.

I refuse to give up my one and only life to this.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> Nope, I'm reading it all, have read it all, have listened to you say the same thing over and over...I'm not mistaken in that you come across as if other situations are comparable to yours and you advocate marital warfare to nearly all of them, not to mention the constant contempt of your wife, as in your last sentence above.



Right, like my suggestion to Anon Pink a while back...


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

To borrow an analogy I read somewhere, TAM is like the Cleveland Clinic or the MD Anderson Center for marriages. Such places usually have outcomes that are lower than Topeka General Hospital. Why? Because they take the hard line cases.

By the time many people arrive in TAM they're pretty much at the end of their ropes with multi year sex lapses and other symptoms. In such cases, just like the Mayo, everything else has been tried and the only thing left is active confrontation as the means to make the other side wake up or packing and moving.

Active confrontation - warfare - is not about payback. It's about making the "partner" fully cognizant of their acts and their consequences. Some may wish to sugarcoat things with mental aerobics. But in reality honesty is the best approach.


----------



## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

PinkSalmon13 said:


> I've read all the posts here, seeking a sympathetic storyline, but to no avail. I'm somewhat envious of people who have ENOUGH left amongst the myriad charms of marriage to hold it together and not allow what's lacking to scramble their brains.
> 
> There are going to be cases where you know, for sure, that it's simply no longer viable because too many of the aspects of the marital dynamic have been torched.
> 
> ...


Exactly my situation. It's a living hell. Chin up old boy - better things are on the horizon.


----------



## askari (Jun 21, 2012)

I whinge and moan about my sexless marriage....we have been to MC but my wife stopped going because she wasnt prepared to face up to the fact that I wanted sex, no, I wanted to MAKE LOVE to her and her to me more than once a month and then only because she felt she had to.

She has basically killed the flame of passion in me and boy do I resent her for it.

I have said that in 4-5 years time when the children have left then I will too. I don't want to...I want to stay with my wife but what I don't want to do is lie on my deathbed thinking 'why didnt I leave?'..'if only'....and resenting her even more for denying me a happy and sexual marriage with her.

Is wanting physical intimacy (including oral sex) with your wife such a bad thing?

As I said earlier, I stay (for now) because my children mean so much to me. I would like to stay once they have gone....but I feel that I owe it to myself...I respect myself..I deserve to be with someone whom I love emotionally and physically and who loves me emotionally and physically too... and I find I keep having to remind myself that....otherwise I will be become a sad empty shell just waiting to die...

Living with a spouse who has no interest in sex and can't 'join the dots' in a conversation is not very pleasant.


----------



## 1812overture (Nov 25, 2013)

askari said:


> She has basically killed the flame of passion in me and boy do I resent her for it.


But you are passionate about your kids, right? So, she hasn't killed everything. I am also passionate about my kids, and I am trying to develop other passions in my life, to compensate for the damage her disinterest in sex has caused.

But in my case, it is not just her disinterest in sex. Is it really that simple with you? 

It can't just be lack of sex that has you saying she's killed the passion. She refuses to talk about it? She won't acknowledge your feelings? There are other resentments from marriage and child-rearing that have crept in, and sex is a flashpoint for you, or something like that? Do you talk weekly about dreams for the future, redecorating the house, vacation plans, what you see as the budding talents in your children, how you will permit them to fail in order to help them succeed? The friends you like and the friends you think are blow-hards?

I simply can't believe that an otherwise healthy, close relationship can't overcome a mismatch in sex drives. It's when the give and take of a healthy relationship is compromised that sex becomes and issue, or a weapon. And then stay or go is a question.

EDIT: And no, wanting physical intimacy with your wife isn't a bad thing.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

If there's a mismatch in sex drives the relationship is not healthy unless the delta - difference - is trivial.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

askari said:


> She has basically killed the flame of passion in me and boy do I resent her for it.


You realize you are blaming her, right? And that there is nothing appealing about a man who blames his wife for, really, anything?


----------



## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

jld said:


> You realize you are blaming her, right? And that there is nothing appealing about a man who blames his wife for, really, anything?


I suspect this is a pretty popular opinion with women who don't want to take any responsibility in their marriage or really their life. Other folks will likely disagree with it.


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> I suspect this is a pretty popular opinion with women who don't want to take any responsibility in their marriage or really their life. Other folks will likely disagree with it.


I agree. I was partly the cause of my sexless or very low sex marriage. I will and have taken responsibility for that. I openly talk about it and have tried, on occasion to help others. It's all I can do at the moment. I'm also divorced, a consequence of infidelity and a not so happy marriage, as well as a decision on her part to cheat before divorce. I think I am paying a high price in all aspects of my life. There are ramifications that will continue until the day I die.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

jld said:


> You realize you are blaming her, right? And that there is nothing appealing about a man who blames his wife for, really, anything?



People with strong self awareness and sense of self worth have no problem being criticized. 

In a bad marriage, or bad anything, the key is what steps are taken to address said bad situation, not just what the situation is all about.


----------



## askari (Jun 21, 2012)

1812 - Its built up over along time and for a multitude of reasons. For 15 years I was a cop....you get to see and deal with some not very pleasant things. I tried not to take work home. But sometimes I needed to 'let off steam', talk about something...her response was "I'm not interested"...She had absolutely no interest in what I did, even though I brought home 70% of the household income.
Yet if she needed to talk about her day I let her because I was interested in the job she did. 

It has been like this all the way....if she isn't interested why should she make the effort? Same with sex. "Why should I make the effort if I don't like it and am not interested?"

20-30 years ago many of us managed to get reasonable jobs without going to university...today everyone goes to university, so to stand any hope of getting a reasonable job you need a degree.
Its all about giving your children a full 'tool box'; if they want to be a lawyer or a dentist they have the tools to be able to do it, if they want to be a long distance trucker they have the 'tools' for that too. Its about giving them as many opportunities as you can.

My wife never went to university (neither did I) and sees absolutely no reason why our children should....in todays world this makes them far less attractive to any potential employer. 

We have no mortgage now...I would like to trade 'up' to a house in a 'nicer' area with a pool....she isn't interested.
She has absolutely no dreams and no ambitions for her, our children or 'us'. The lights are on but no one is in.

Maybe I should blame myself instead.....for being so blind when I married her. Although over the years she has got worse, I should have seen the seeds years ago.

Sorry for hijacking the thread here....wanted to respond to 1812!


----------



## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

Within a year of marriage, we went periods of several months without sex. She was no longer comfortable with sexual contact and was happy for me to sort myself out, but would not help with it. IN that time there were a few occasions when I was out and approached by pretty girls for sex (I am not bad looking), some assertive and young enough to be my daughter. 

I would not have blamed any man who had given in. I do not blame any man who gives in under similar circumstances.


----------



## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Interesting article, but i'm not sure i agree with the slant of the author. Seems they were basically stating that the whole "marriage industry" is kind of a scam and you should just be happy--whether you're happy or not.

I think resigned acceptance is fine in some aspects of marriage, but not all. I would probably be ok with resigned acceptance if i REALLY liked to play tennis, but my wife didn't. Resigned acceptance that she no longer has any passion for the relatioship? Nope, that doesn't work for me.


----------



## poppyseed (Dec 22, 2013)

2times2 said:


> Maybe it is just me, but I found this article pretty depressing.
> Wish I would have gotten more out of it!
> 
> Thanks for sharing though, I'm trying to learn as much about all of this as I can!


It IS depressing. Who wants to read that unless someone wants to have a divorce tomorrow.


----------



## poppyseed (Dec 22, 2013)

Fozzy said:


> Seems they were basically stating that the whole "marriage industry" is kind of a scam and you should just be happy--whether you're happy or not.
> 
> I think resigned acceptance is fine in some aspects of marriage, but not all. I would probably be ok with resigned acceptance if i REALLY liked to play tennis, but my wife didn't. Resigned acceptance that she no longer has any passion for the relatioship? Nope, that doesn't work for me.


I agree. That's the hardest part (in mine anyway) which always makes me cry. Resigned acceptance is one way of putting it. your marriage is "Dead" whilst we still love each other.


----------



## PinkSalmon13 (Nov 7, 2013)

"resigned acceptance".........in my case, with the way I'm torturing myself these days, would almost be a welcome relief. I'm 52. I could just slip beneath the surface, drown, and wait to die. No external conflict, keep putting on the show, whack off 3 or 4 times a week, and go about my business, never touching or being touched again, and talking about the drivability of the ice on the road, the car repair money one of the kids needs, which family to visit in the summer, and so on. I could do that. Piece of cake.

But there is something in me, buried deep, that is almost literally crying out for MORE LIFE, freedom, adventure, excitement, joy in waking up in the morning and peace in laying down at night. This little voice would even like to gently cup a breast again in this lifetime, heavens me!!

So 'resigned acceptance' isn't an option for me..........but I also haven't found the courage to up and leave. I'm in hell, basically, wandering around looking for inspiration to finally cut and run. I think this is the worst place to be.........even worse than resigned acceptance......but my will to live is still stronger than the urge to let myself drown and throw it all away.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Assess what you're getting from the relationship overall. At the risk of sounding like a cynic (who me?) my life's inventory shows that losing wifey we lose the cook, such as she is, housecleaning, such as it is (I seem to be doing a lot more lately), living in a state of the art house the size of a Walmart, and a six figure salary. Mind you, I also earn that kind of money, more than her actually, but my love language is Nikon, so...

So, putting up with wifey's antics provides top notch education for my kids, a nicer house, and more money when we're older. The catch is that once tuition checks go away in 7-8 years so do I. 

Not a problem for me or my kids, but grand mal problem for her (read my other threads). It's all about karma I suppos'.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

john117 said:


> People with strong self awareness and sense of self worth have no problem being criticized.
> 
> In a bad marriage, or bad anything, the key is what steps are taken to address said bad situation, not just what the situation is all about.


John, people have feelings. You have them, too, even if you try to deny them.

Yes, criticism is a gift, but it is up to the receiver to decide to receive it that way. If we try to push it on someone, it likely will not have the intended effect.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I don't deny my feelings, that's not quite accurate - I do not let feelings influence me to as much a degree as others I know.

Emotions are useful inputs in an overall complex decision framework, but treat them with care, assign them the right weight and provenance and they can help. Just don't make them the center point of the process.

Heck, my car purchase was pure emotion. Remembering the days back in my old country where the original Mini Cooper won many a race and made its designer a knight, I splurged on a 2012 Mini S. Not the most practical car but pure emotion. 

You're probably too young to know the Citroen 2CV, but my emotional side for French cars is more Alpine Renault A110 than anything. Ask your hubby about it if he's a car head he knows.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Dh said his parents had a 2CV. 

Funny story: When dh was 3 or 4, his mom stepped out of the car, leaving the engine running. Dh jumped into the driver's seat. Because the car had a centrifugal clutch, you could put it in gear without pressing the clutch pedal when the engine was idling. So he did , and the car started to move. Dh's mom came running and screaming!

Dh said the Alpine was an iconic French car, built in Dieppe. It was the French sports car, but the quality was not that great and so nobody bought it (expensive and not super reliable).


----------

