# Input PLEASE! EA or NO EA? That is the question



## SeenBetterDays (Mar 4, 2013)

This is my very first post on any forum ever! Not sure if I'm posting in the correct spot, but it does say coping and I'm COPING with something, just not sure it's infidelity. That''s why I'm here and here it goes.

I've been reading TAM for about 2 weeks and now have gotten the courage to post. I didn't know there was something called an "Emotional Affair" until I started reading about it here. I mean I knew the definition of an EA was something to look out for, I just didn't know it had a name. I usually refer to it as an "Infatuation"


My husband of 25 + years, is a sweet, loving and very helpful kinda guy. So helpful that sometimes people take advantage of him. He's very hard working with two jobs. His second job is a handyman type business, he does on the side.When the economy fell he took on the second job to help fill the gaps. We both work, have two grown sons and have enjoyed life to what I thought was to the fullest, with no major upsets in our marriage.

Here's my dilemma!

About six, seven months ago, my H started spending more time with one particular female client from his Handyman business. She's single and according to him a lot of work at her home is need. Okay, that sounded good. That meant more money, which was needed. He did a lot of the work while she was at her job. There were several times I had popped in to visit him and everything seemed to be cool. I even met her there a couple times. She was domineering, bossy, but complimented his work at every turn to the point that some of the comments were to cutesie and annoying. You know overly complimentary and a very touchy feelie type of woman. My husband seemed to enjoy the attention, but I found being in the same room watching from a distance was uncomfortable...surreal. I let it slide at that time.

Around Dec. of last year I noticed he was getting a significant amount of phone calls and text. I was thinking "Hey business must be booming" He agreed. These calls and text just kept coming in everyday and night nonstop. Sometimes I'd ask who it was. He would tell me it was his boss from his full time job or one of his coworkers from there. He did get calls and text from them, but not to this extent. This went on all of December and up to our anniversary which was January 31 of this year. So two months straight that went on. He got at least 5 text a day sometimes more.that would be while I was around, I don't how many more he got when I wasn't around. Right in the middle of our conversations these text would come in.He would read them, then he seemed to go into some sort of trance state after words. I would ask him what was wrong he would tell me he was thinking about all the work he had to do. Sometimes he would forget what we were talking about. I kept feeling that something strange was going on. I just didn't know what. I was trying to give him the benefit of the doubt. It could have really been work because he did have a lot of it.

Anniversary Day. We got all dressed up went to one of the best restaurants in our town. We even went before our reservations to have ****tails and dance before dinner. He told me what a wonderful wife and lover I was and he couldn't imagine being married to anyone else. Life was so wonderful with you by my side you are the most beautiful woman in the world. We kissed and held each other tight on the dance floor. Very romantic. After we danced we were sat at our table. It couldn't have been more then 5 minutes and the text started coming in. We looked at the menu then order and still more text. I said honey you should turn off your phone and he did, leaned over and kissed me and said he loved me.Then he went to the restroom. But he left the phone behind. How convenient. Well you know I just couldn't help myself. I looked. I was devastated at what I read. There were thousands of text. I couldn't read them all but the jest was a lot of I love you. I miss you so much. Most of the text ended in oxoxox. She told him he was her best friend and she would always be there for him.
She was so lonely when are you coming back to see me. I love the massages you give me. My husbands responses were just as bad. He told her he missed her and loved her too. He also told her she was so beautiful even more beautiful from the first time they met. I was shacking. I didn't know what to think. some of the other things he told her were things I thought he only told me. I certainly didn't feel special anymore! I put the phone back and tried to make it through the rest of the dinner without him knowing I looked at the phone. I just wanted the night to be special. So I sucked it up and bit my lip.

But the next morning I let it all out. I didn't yell. But I cried and told him I looked at his phone. I said to him I thought I was the only special one in his life. Everything you said to this woman is not right as far as I'm concerned.
Whats wrong with you!? What are you doing to us?

These are the things he said to me

They were just really good friends and he was building and nurturing a relationship with her. He also said I was reading to much into the text messages. I was over reacting nothing was going on. He didn't sleep with her if that's what I was thinking. We just spend a lot of time together talking and laughing. He also said he didn't mind all the text. He thinks this is how you have a friendship.

So I'm over reacting and this is how friendships are formed.

Can someone help me here. Was I out to lunch when these rules were handed out?
Am I missing something? Is this how a married person has a friendship? He thinks it's alright.

I did put my foot down. I told him she is longer going to call or text him and he will not be going to see her anymore. so far for the past 6 weeks he has held true to what I've asked. but she still text and calls maybe once or twice a week as far as i can tell and he hasn't gone to her house. i ask him why she keeps calling? He said it may take awhile for her to stop. He has talked to her once or twice since the day i confronted him. what they talk about I don't know. he's very evasive when I ask. He say's we have to be patient. WHY?

Was this an EA or the beginning of one or none at all? Am I over reacting like he says?


Input PLEASE!


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## foolme2x (Jan 1, 2013)

I'm sure you are about to get a bunch of answers from the more experienced people here. There will be a lot of good information that you should listen very closely to! Because not only is this a textbook EA, but if there is talk about massages...it is a PA as well. 

Sorry you are here.


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## ody360 (Feb 1, 2013)

Um this is a EA and hoping its not a PA with as much time as he spent with her alone at her house. But basically a EA is any conversation going on between your spouse and another person that is more then what you would say to a regular friends would be a EA. You said the messages were unacceptable, well then he cross the line and is having a EA.. 

Now you do need to drop the hammer on him. He needs to be held accountable for his actions. To say stuff to another women that your only suppose say to your wife is just wrong and unmoral... He needs be aware that his actions are unacceptable and there needs to be consequences. If you do nothing and give him a slap on the wrists. It may just further underground. Keep an eye out it could still be possibly going on. Not to scare you but keep you guard on full. Honestly this is not my type of thinking but i wouldn't be shock if it was a PA as well. Way to much opportunity..


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## foolme2x (Jan 1, 2013)

No way to you have to be "patient" because it may take her a while to stop contacting him! Wrong, wrong, wrong! 

If she is still texting and calling at all, and he wont let you see the messages, he is trying to pull the wool over your eyes because it is still going on. And he's trying to make you doubt your own instincts about the whole thing. My guess is full blown PA that continues to this day.


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## BeenthereDunThat (Nov 27, 2012)

Seen, based on what you have found there is no doubt that your husband is having an EA. There are many people on this site who will help you through this difficult time? The one thing you need to remember is the actions your husband took have nothing to do with you. He made the decision to go behind your back.


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## walkonmars (Aug 21, 2012)

Big time EA. Do not have a single doubt. And unfortunately, it may well be/have been a PA.

In fact, if he was rubbing her in any way IT WAS A PA!

If he's pliable and she's domineering I'm fairly sure they got it on. He was able to justify the unjustifiable by rationalizing that it was she, not he, who was the instigator.

Why hasn't he blocked her number? 

Have him write a no contact letter. But first tell him it was a good 24 & 1/2 yrs. You will not be second anything after helping him raise a family. Tell him you will see a lawyer about your rights if he doesn't commit TODAY to the marriage.

You need to be as dominating as the chick down the street.


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## NatureDave (Feb 19, 2013)

Textbook and very involved EA and most likely a PA. If he was over at her house all the time - and gave her massages, then I don't see how its not.

In any case, an EA is just as damaging as a PA.

You are going to have to get tough with him. He has to write her a no-contact letter that you approve. And he cannot have any contact with her. EVER. AGAIN.

He has to know that the second he contacts her, you are divorcing him. Period. No second chances.

And he has a long way to go to ever earn your trust again. The only way is to be completely transparent. Change his phone number, give you complete access to his phone, emails, facebook, you name it.


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## totallyunexpected (Nov 21, 2012)

You are about to have your heart smashed into a million more pieces - and I know it's already severely cracked. Cheaters only admit to behavior when there is solid, undeniable proof. All else they deny. They try to make it look like their partner is paranoid, reading to much into things, controlling, anything to continue both their marriage and the affair. 

You are almost certainly dealing with not only an EA but also a PA. The message about a massage, the fact that he goes to her home, I'm sorry but the fact of the matter is that in your state of shock and denial (we all go through it!) you are trying to minimize everything just as he is doing. 

It's time for you to seriously uncover the extent of this affair - if you want to work on the marriage - and to do that you mustn't reveal your sources. It'll just push an affair further underground. 

Here's the newbie link. Read it, please:
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/32002-welcome-tam-cwi-newbies-please-read.html

God, I am so sorry. How can someone act so romantic all the while be a filthy cheater. Errrrrr men (okay women too). I wish we didn't have to go through this cruelty. Keep us updated, you'll get lots of advice, and of course we all like to commiserate.


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## Goldmember357 (Jan 31, 2012)

You need to confront him.

Trust your gut


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## totallyunexpected (Nov 21, 2012)

Goldmember357 said:


> You need to confront him.
> 
> Trust your gut


Trust your gut, indeed. (It's almost always right in the case of cheating.)

However, your "gut" means nothing to a cheater other than that they consider it a manipulable tool. So intelligence gather first if you want to confront.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

So sorry, but this is very definitely an EA and most probably a PA. All the signs are there.

FWIW, I think he may too weak to extract himself & he needs you to do it. You need to find the truth. Stay on here and get some tips on how to gather evidence and monitor. You can use a VAR and get all the phone records, e-mail, check for any secret accounts, etc. You will need to confront again after you know more of the truth. And there IS more. There always is.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

Seen,

I'm sorry you're hear but you need to wake up to reality. Another woman is telling your husband she loves him. He's telling her he loves her. That's infidelity. And it's very unlikely based on what you describe, that's it's only an EA.

Same thing happened to me almost two years ago. My wife gave much the same response as your husband when I found the I love you texts. One week later I found a ton of evidence that it was a long term PA.

Regardless, your husband has jeopardized your marriage with his cheating. You have to give him consequences and you need to be prepared to end your marriage if he doesn't comply with all these requirements that you've been advised to give him. 

Make him earn his way back to you by demonstrating remorse. Don't rug sweep this, don't let him gaslight you, don't try to nice him back to faithfulness.

As counter-intuitive as it may sound, this is your best "chance" to save your marriage.

If he refuses to comply, do the 180 (find the link) and start divorce proceedings. Keep going ahead with it until he does comply. Then you can "reconsider" D. If he doesn't, then he's not remorseful. Simple as that.

Keep posting and good luck.


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## carolinadreams (Nov 30, 2012)

Read Shirley Glass Not Just Friends. Your husband was having an affair with this woman, based on the volume likely with physical components. Get him to give you all his email etc passwords. Have him contact the woman in front of you and say that he will not communicate with her in any form or fashion, period. There are several guides for this on this site.

I suggest you both get tested for STD's and you should see his test results straight from the doctor.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

SeenBetterDays said:


> You know overly complimentary and a very touchy feelie type of woman. My husband seemed to enjoy the attention, but I found being in the same room watching from a distance was uncomfortable...surreal.


 If seeing it makes you uncomfortable then it needs to stop.



SeenBetterDays said:


> Around Dec. of last year I noticed he was getting a significant amount of phone calls and text. I was thinking "Hey business must be booming" He agreed. These calls and text just kept coming in everyday and night nonstop. Sometimes I'd ask who it was. He would tell me it was his boss from his full time job or one of his coworkers from there. He did get calls and text from them, but not to this extent.


 If he felt the need to lie to you about it, then he knew that it was wrong.



SeenBetterDays said:


> I was devastated at what I read. There were thousands of text. I couldn't read them all but the jest was a lot of I love you. I miss you so much. Most of the text ended in oxoxox. She told him he was her best friend and she would always be there for him. She was so lonely when are you coming back to see me. I love the massages you give me. My husbands responses were just as bad. He told her he missed her and loved her too. He also told her she was so beautiful even more beautiful from the first time they met.


 This is not normal conversation between friends. This is much more than friendship. This is at least an emotional affair (EA). If it is not already also a physical affair (PA), it is heading that way.



SeenBetterDays said:


> These are the things he said to me
> 
> They were just really good friends and he was building and nurturing a relationship with her. He also said I was reading to much into the text messages. I was over reacting nothing was going on. He didn't sleep with her if that's what I was thinking. We just spend a lot of time together talking and laughing. He also said he didn't mind all the text. He thinks this is how you have a friendship.


 All cheaters try to make the cheated on feel like they are crazy for stating the obvious fact that they are cheating. This is right out of the cheaters handbook and is so standard that there is even a name for it; it is called gaslighting. Do not doubt yourself. Get angry and call him on it now and stop even listening to it. Tell him that secretly seeing and communicating with another woman (OW) behind your back and telling them that you love them is cheating pure and simple, and that you want it to stop right now. Tell him that best case it is an EA, and that EA is still cheating. Demand full no contact (NC) with the other woman and full transparency (with full passwords, etc.) now. Be prepared to back this demand up with filing for divorce and meaning it. It takes time to do a divorce and you can always change your mind if he deserves it.



SeenBetterDays said:


> So I'm over reacting and this is how friendships are formed.


 This is not how friendships are formed. This is how affairs are formed. 

As someone already suggested, please get and read “Not Just Friends”. Do this today. Once your read it, you will know that you are not crazy and that your husband is cheating beyond a shadow of a doubt. As an FYI, many people in EAs fool themselves into thinking that as long as they do not have intercourse with the other person, it is not cheating, even though it clearly is.

Another thing. Cheaters always try to blame shift where they focus on your faults as the reason for their cheating. This is also part of the cheater's script. This is bull so do not buy into this. Cheating does not fix issues in a marriage. You are each responsible 50%-50% for resolving issues in your marraige, but a cheater is 100% responsible for cheating. Cheater try to hold you to a standard of perfection that they do not hold themselves to, knowing that as a human you cannot be perfect and will fail such a standard. They do this to have a false rationalization for their cheating and to give you an impossible goal to try to correct as they try to blame shift their cheating back to you.

Good luck and be well. You did nothing to deserve this.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

Freind, you need to be very firm on this, very firm. To the point of risking the marriage (in order to safe it, as the say).
OW must go ASAP.
He's fogged as hell. This need to be an ultimatum that you can follow trough.
It's simple. OW or the marriage They are mutualy exclusive. You don't share. You won't. You choose selfrespect even over the marriage.

He must send a NC letter (as us for templates)
He must become an open book about comunication devices and whereabouts (In his back you put in place all the home made snooping tools).
He must come clean (don't buy the "just friends" bull at all. Also it's lukely a PA too).
He must comit to repair the damage he inflicted on you and to regain the shatered trust.

No barganing, no time to think, no trial separations. Nothing.
OW is gone or divorce.

It's going to be ver hard to crack even he claims he will. He's on drugs, enamored with how this woman makes him fell. He feels the KISA to this damsell in distress. He's full of himself just now. Like superman. It's hard to give up this.

If he doesn't accept your terms you talk to a lawyer and file, kick him out, send him to OWs, expose him to everyone whose respect he loves to have and implement the 180 to help you detach and move on.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

It's not an EA. It's a PA.

 How horrible. I'm so sorry.


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## SeenBetterDays (Mar 4, 2013)

foolme2x said:


> No way to you have to be "patient" because it may take her a while to stop contacting him! Wrong, wrong, wrong!
> 
> If she is still texting and calling at all, and he wont let you see the messages, he is trying to pull the wool over your eyes because it is still going on. And he's trying to make you doubt your own instincts about the whole thing. My guess is full blown PA that continues to this day.


Yes, she still text. I ask why does she need to contact you now if you told her not to. He tells me she needs to connect I guess. it's hard for her to stop.

That really threw me into a emotional [email protected]#[email protected]#$#f


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## SeenBetterDays (Mar 4, 2013)

Thanks for all the advice and responses. I'm off to work buy I still need further advice. Will get back later.


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## Tomlongisland (Feb 4, 2013)

Hey, 

Talking from experience. An emotional affair is devasting. I think as much as a physical affair. I remember reading my wife's emails that said she was thinking of him all day. It took her a long time to confess to the emotional attachment. Will thinks ever be the same? I really don't know. The emails keep coming back in my head. The first thing you need to do is tell him all contact must end. Write a joint email to her saying the contact will end, it is not appropreate. Than go to counseling. Everything must be transparent. No phone or email passwords and you need to be able to check them any time without a whimper from him. That is a start anyway


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## foolme2x (Jan 1, 2013)

SeenBetterDays said:


> Yes, she still text. I ask why does she need to contact you now if you told her not to. He tells me she needs to connect I guess. it's hard for her to stop.
> 
> That really threw me into a emotional [email protected]#[email protected]#$#f


He's only telling you half the story. It's hard for her to stop, yes; but it's also hard for him to stop. He's having an affair, and anything he tells you to the contrary is utter BS.

Right now, they're in the middle of la-la land, where everything is perfect and romantic and oh, isn't it tragic that we can't be together anymore now that we've been found out? Even if it is just texts at the moment, it won't be long before they find an excuse to see each other in person again.

If your husband has a need to be needed, he may have trouble really making a clean break from this woman. It's the KISA (knight in shining armor) syndrome. You need to make him go no contact immediately, if only so that you can figure out if YOU still want to be married to him. It is the only way. If he won't go NC, you might as well start looking for an attorney now.


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## SeenBetterDays (Mar 4, 2013)

Hi everyone thank you for the responses,

I'm finding it hard to work. Can't stop thinking about this nightmarish experience.

I've picked up a copy of the book "Not Just Friends" that a few have suggested. Looks very informative. I set it out on the table for my H to see it. He did, picked it up and said "I'm not having one of those, are you kidding" I said okay, but I'm going to read it and I think you should too. Well that was the end of that conversation.
But I did ask him prior to him finding the book, if he thought it would be okay if I started up a close friendship, like the one he has with so and so from my antiquing club. He asked why would I do that? It's complicated and NO you should not.

That tells me a lot.

And I also asked him about some of the messages from the OW. Especially the one about the massage. He said she was helping him lift something heavy and pulled a muscle in her back. He was just helping her rub it out.

I don't know what to believe.

But more investigating is needed.

Any other men on here had an EA? How hard is it to get over?

This whole thing is just so unfair. Why can't I make him understand that married people don't do this to one another. He said I did what you asked, but did he want to do it? I want him to want it.

Frustrating


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## TCSRedhead (Oct 17, 2012)

An EA is impossible to give up unless he acknowledges it and chooses his marriage over his affair partner.

You are not being unreasonable or asking him to do something that is unreasonable. 

This is rude and disrespectful. Not ok at all. 

The question is where is the line in the sand for you? Are you ok with a third person in your marriage? 

Ask him to leave until he can make a choice - the marriage or this woman. He is still not acknowledging that he did something inappropriate or wrong. That has to happen for you two to begin healing.


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## walkonmars (Aug 21, 2012)

Don't have anymore conversations with him. Have a conversation with you lawyer. Do it soon.


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## foolme2x (Jan 1, 2013)

SeenBetterDays said:


> This whole thing is just so unfair. Why can't I make him understand that married people don't do this to one another. He said I did what you asked, but did he want to do it? I want him to want it.


This is a grown man you're talking about here. He has managed to get married and raise a family, run a successful business...he's not some innocent lamb-in-the-woods led astray. He understands PERFECTLY what you are saying to him. He just doesn't like it.

Unless you are willing to put your foot down, he is not going to stop his behavior and his affair is going to continue. Do you want to be going through this same pattern for the rest of your life?


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

Definently an EA..maybe more.....

WE have all heard those same things...it is nothing, she is just a friend, etc. etc. Do not believe any of it..all lies!


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

I would be on her friggin door step as well...telling her to stay the hell away. Man she is pretty brazen...


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

SeenBetterDays said:


> Hi everyone thank you for the responses,
> 
> I'm finding it hard to work. Can't stop thinking about this nightmarish experience.
> 
> ...


I'm going to be blunt. He replaced you. Everything you do wrong, which is everything, is met by a perfect person he doesn't live with all of the time. She is EVERYTHING you are not. You know because he isn't with her 24/7.

You do not suggest, you demand.
You set boundaries because he betrayed your trust.
On this issue there is no compromising. NONE.

If he gets mad, he can get out.


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## SeenBetterDays (Mar 4, 2013)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> I'm going to be blunt. He replaced you. Everything you do wrong, which is everything, is met by a perfect person he doesn't live with all of the time. She is EVERYTHING you are not. You know because he isn't with her 24/7.
> 
> You do not suggest, you demand.
> You set boundaries because he betrayed your trust.
> ...


Here's the thing. He thinks I am perfect and everything I do is great. He tells me so.

So I don't understand how he can say the things he say's to this OW.

Also I'm hyper sensitive to text and calls that come into his phone. How can I not Be. This OW has abused calling and texting for over 2 months straight by calling or texting at least 6 or more times a day, every day. And the things they say in these text are not right. In fact we got into an argument the other day about incoming calls I wanted to know if it was her. He kept saying over an over, shes not the problem, shes not the problem. Then what is? He won't discuss what is so how am I to know?

It's like he thinks nothing has happened.

The other thing is he is guarded with his phone. I have gotten a hold of it a few times. Most of the text he sent he has deleted. but some of the old ones OW sent are still there. Seems she knows quite a bit about our affairs. she tells him what to do. for example when he need to collect money from one of his other clients she will say "Now you need to collect from so and so so you can pay this or that. Why would he tell her about our affairs?

Next week I have an appoint with a lawyer. If nothing more just to find out where I stand legally.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

_Quickly, you have to find out if he is now telling the truth. He has now been lying to you for quite a while.

Put a VAR in his vehicle under the front seat. Do not buy the cheapest because they won't work. Here is one at Walmart:

voice activated recorder - Walmart.com

You HAVE to know what you are fighting. If they have had sex, is that a deal breaker for you?

This is how it starts:

Originally Posted by F-102 
It may have gone something like this:

They first start catching up, and it's all "How you been doing? What have you been up to?"

Then it would have morphed into talk about:

What they've been doing since they parted
Their significant others since they parted
Their families
Their favorite music, movies, etc.
Their spouses
You
Your job
How your job keeps you away
How lonely she gets when you're away
How she looks forward to their conversations all the time now
How she loves talking to him
How she gets "bored" talking to you
How you don't always listen
How you're not "perfect"
How you can be so insensitive sometimes
How she wonders if she would have stayed with him
How he understands her
How he knows how to make her feel good
How you fail at this
How you are such an a**hole
How she feels young again
How she hasn't felt this happy with you in so long
How he's a better man than you'll ever be
How she wants to see him again
How they can meet under the radar
How she's thought of leaving you
How she ever could have fallen for a jerk like you
How he's her soul mate
How she made a big mistake leaving him
How she made an even bigger mistake marrying you
How they were meant to be together...

...get the picture?_


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## Hurt&confused92 (Apr 6, 2013)

if he wont talk at least write him a letter letting him know all of how you feel. It will help to put it down in writing at least. Let him know that helping his OW is hurting you PERIOD. he needs to understand that if he truly thinks what he is going is OK then by definition it would be OK for you to do the same. Some strange man rub your back, send you "i love you" messages and spend time with you. Ask him if the roles were reversed would he be OK with it? 9x out of 10 the answer would be NO!!! regardless of a EA or PA...any affair is WRONG! the bond of marriage is supposed to be special and sacred. Not to be shared with "outsiders" or lonely people. If this OW needs a friend...tell her that she needs to find a single man to fulfill her needs or get a damn dog!


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## Hurt&confused92 (Apr 6, 2013)

have you confronted her yourself?


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## SeenBetterDays (Mar 4, 2013)

Hurt&confused92 said:


> have you confronted her yourself?


No. Should I? I thought about it, but figured that she would probably lie to me.


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## Hurt&confused92 (Apr 6, 2013)

she might but let her know that you DO know! If anything know that she will tell him. this is your life and sanity too...take it back. i am so sorry that this is happening to you. my husband cheated and it still hurts 6 months later. 

Bring this whole thing to light and make them react. This just might be the eye opener that your husband needs.


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## MissKiss (Mar 30, 2013)

EA. It stops or you kick his behind to the curb.


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## SeenBetterDays (Mar 4, 2013)

chapparal said:


> _Quickly, you have to find out if he is now telling the truth. He has now been lying to you for quite a while.
> 
> Put a VAR in his vehicle under the front seat. Do not buy the cheapest because they won't work. Here is one at Walmart:
> 
> ...


Thanks for that advice. I was thinking about a VAR, only because I have little access to his phone. I checked into spy-bubble but it won't work on his phone. You can't even block individual numbers thats how archaic his phone is. I'm sure he talks to her while in his car so it would be good to know from his mouth what he is saying to her.


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## Hurt&confused92 (Apr 6, 2013)

i hope things work out for you. You deserve to be happy, safe and secure in your love life.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

> *I love the massages you give me.*


This is an EA tending to lean towards a PA (Physical Affair) and must be brought to a shuddering halt, now!

He must go No Contact with her. 100%.

She's a menace and can have no further part in your life.


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## SeenBetterDays (Mar 4, 2013)

Hurt&confused92 said:


> i hope things work out for you. You deserve to be happy, safe and secure in your love life.


I thank you for that. 

That is so true. And to you as well.

Thanks
Big Hug


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## SeenBetterDays (Mar 4, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> This is an EA tending to lean towards a PA (Physical Affair) and must be brought to a shuddering halt, now!
> 
> He must go No Contact with her. 100%.
> 
> She's a menace and can have no further part in your life.


I agree 100% about NO contact ever again. She has wedged herself into our marriage and thinks shes entitled to it.

But what do you say, when he has told me that he has taken money from her for a job he has not completed? He says he needs to complete. What i have said to him was...Okay then I will go with you to complete it or give the money back. Simple.

Was that appropriate or was I just giving in.


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## Aunt Ava (Jan 24, 2013)

Can you verify he is telling the truth about having accepted payment for work not completed? Or is that another reason for him to have contact? No Contact means No Contact at all. Did they have a signed contract for the work to be done? Can he subcontract the work out to someone else? If he absolutely must do the work then you should accompany him. And you can inform her that's the end of their association.

An earlier post recommended confronting her. You need to think about that carefully. Personally, I would be hesitant to confront her. She most likely would run to your husband and tell him how mean you were to her. And you can't trust a word she tells you anyway so not much point. I'm sure she would tell you that you are misinterpreting everything, and they are just goooood friends, he's helping her get through a difficult time in her life...blah, blah, blah.


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## GROUNDPOUNDER (Mar 8, 2013)

SeenBetterDays said:


> Thanks for that advice. I was thinking about a VAR, only because I have little access to his phone. I checked into spy-bubble but it won't work on his phone. You can't even block individual numbers thats how archaic his phone is. I'm sure he talks to her while in his car so it would be good to know from his mouth what he is saying to her.


There's a really good VAR that's being used by others on here, I think it's from Sony(sorry can't remember the model#). Hide one, or more where you H is likely to be when talking to the OW on his phone.

Then, if you don't like what you're hearing on the house VAR, you then might want to consider putting one in his auto. You could, if you are up to it, velcro a VAR under the seat of his vehicle. This is a little more risky, but when he's in his truck/car he's alot more likely to speak freely. You should look up the best way to transfix the VAR, so it wouldn't come loose on it's own. If he stores work tools under the seat, then under the dash is a better place. The car-VAR may not be for you, but it was worth mentioning and keeping in mind for later on if some of your suspicions are confirmed by the house VAR.


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## SeenBetterDays (Mar 4, 2013)

Aunt Ava said:


> Can you verify he is telling the truth about having accepted payment for work not completed? Or is that another reason for him to have contact? No Contact means No Contact at all. Did they have a signed contract for the work to be done? Can he subcontract the work out to someone else? If he absolutely must do the work then you should accompany him. And you can inform her that's the end of their association.
> 
> An earlier post recommended confronting her. You need to think about that carefully. Personally, I would be hesitant to confront her. She most likely would run to your husband and tell him how mean you were to her. And you can't trust a word she tells you anyway so not much point. I'm sure she would tell you that you are misinterpreting everything, and they are just goooood friends, he's helping her get through a difficult time in her life...blah, blah, blah.


Yes I have proof he used the money to purchase materials for her job but has not done any of the work yet. I'm finding out she won't be ready for him to do the actual work until May. My thinking is he THINKS I will have cooled down by then and he will just go do the job. How wrong he is. I will be ever more vigilant!

I'm also finding she is having personal issues and she's been using my H shoulder to cry on. Just as you stated in your post. And that's not all, because shes so strapped for money, some of the jobs hes done for free.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

SeenBetterDays said:


> This is my very first post on any forum ever! Not sure if I'm posting in the correct spot, but it does say coping and I'm COPING with something, just not sure it's infidelity. That''s why I'm here and here it goes.
> 
> I've been reading TAM for about 2 weeks and now have gotten the courage to post. I didn't know there was something called an "Emotional Affair" until I started reading about it here. I mean I knew the definition of an EA was something to look out for, I just didn't know it had a name. I usually refer to it as an "Infatuation"
> 
> ...


This is no longer an EA. It probably was. But onec physical touching started it for sure was beyond that.

So this is a full blown affair. have they had sex. Perhaps. Perhaps not. But it is physical. 

They need to go verifiably NC immediately. But indeed there is way more to this than you know. AND this has gotten so way out of hand he will likely take this underground. This may not be his first rodeo either if this is the type of work he does.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

SeenBetterDays said:


> Hi everyone thank you for the responses,
> 
> I'm finding it hard to work. Can't stop thinking about this nightmarish experience.
> 
> ...


It took me two months of full NC.

BUT, your husbands EA/PA is well beyond mine. His became physical. The ley to any of this, is immediate frim action. IMMEDIATE FIRM action. Total NC.

I call BS on the rubbing anything out. Not his place to touch another woman in this way. Stop trying to reason with him.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

SeenBetterDays said:


> Here's the thing. He thinks I am perfect and everything I do is great. He tells me so.
> 
> So I don't understand how he can say the things he say's to this OW.
> 
> ...


It is an addcition. These are brain chemicals. He is a zombie. Seriously. These are the same brain chemicals involved with cocain abuse. Stop trying to reason with him.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

SeenBetterDays said:


> I agree 100% about NO contact ever again. She has wedged herself into our marriage and thinks shes entitled to it.
> 
> But what do you say, when he has told me that he has taken money from her for a job he has not completed? He says he needs to complete. What i have said to him was...Okay then I will go with you to complete it or give the money back. Simple.
> 
> Was that appropriate or was I just giving in.


He must return the money. Let her sue him. 

No. NC means zero contact.


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## Busy Accountant (Mar 15, 2013)

Hi Seen

I'm sorry you are here. I agree with the EA, possible PA analysis and the need for confirmation with VAR's etc. I can't add to that conversation.

Here are my two cent's worth:
1. Take a deep breath and figure out what you want in your life. Two main thoughts I have....Are you willing to continue in a marriage with the kind of dynamic you have now? How about your children? Do you want to retain their affection? Every move you make from here on out should should be moving toward the answers you gave to those questions and any others you may formulate. For example, by gathering evidence, you are not only confirming the existence and nature of the affair, you are also building a defense of your actions to those you love.
2. That sweet man you described in your first post is gone. Grieve him. Then, move on to destroy the ogre that replaced him. By doing so, you will either end your marriage and your suffering, or allow that sweet man to return.

Lets give your H the benefit of the doubt and say that this is as he says it is (its not, but bear with me).
1. He has put the emotional well-being of another woman ahead of your emotional well-being. He should always have your back. You should be his highest priority. He has said she needs time to maintain the NC. Think of it..would you honor his request not to contact someone that upset him..even if there was no merit? I suspect you would just to make him feel better and to acknowledge that you have his best interests in mind. Clear betrayal.....strike one.
2. If your husband asked you to read a book that meant a lot to him, would you do it? If he told you it was REALLY important to him? What books are you UNWILLING to read? Betrayal, selfish. Strike two.
3. The existence of the contract to do more work is CLEAR evidence that he has not upheld his end of NC. Refund the full amount of the downpayment to OW and eat the costs of the materials he bought. Let him know that's way cheaper than a divorce. He has lied to you. Strike three.
4. He has made financial decisions and not included you in the decisions by doing work for her and not charging her. How much has this amounted to? Would you randomly write a check to a friend (even a close one he knows and approves of) for the same amount without consulting with him? He has disrespected your shared authority in the marriage about financial matters. Betrayal...strike four.

Wait!!!!!! Aren't there only three strikes?? How many are you going to give him? Remember, this is if you BUY what he is telling you!!!

Now, lets talk about OW. I already know her..so do you....so do many of the women on here. She's the girl in high school who thought it was cool to steal her best friend's boyfriend. In college, she had one relationship started before she finished the one she was in. She's needy, desperate and pathetic. If she is so beautiful, how come she can't find a single guy? She LIVES off her ego, and it is quite possible she will be energized if you contact her. She loves the ego boost she gets by stealing a married man. She loves the chase and the danger. She is a 16 year old with saggy breasts, that is if she hasn't had them lifted or replaced.

She is making a fool of your husband. It is quite likely that if you two do separate, it will signal the beginning of the end of the affair because the chase is over. It's certain that she will trade him in on a better model eventually. Ask him if he is willing to trade in his investment in the years he spent with you, 1/2 of his assets and quite possibly the affection of his children for this POS. Is she worth it? While you are at it, ask him what his life looks like when he's 85 and he needs his diaper changed. Who is more likely to be there for him, her or you? Let him know his chances of you being around are plummeting rapidly.

Finally contact an attorney and have a consultation. You will begin to get a picture of where you stand financially while you sort out the emotional issues. While you are at it, charge the fee to the charge card he sees the bill for. Let him know you are not messing around anymore. He has strung you along for months now. Its got to stop.


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## SeenBetterDays (Mar 4, 2013)

Entropy3000 said:


> He must return the money. Let her sue him.
> 
> No. NC means zero contact.


I agree with everything you have said....just trying to wrap my head around this whole affair is boggling. It came out of the blue and slapped me in the face. I can say for the past 6-7 weeks now he has not seen her. why do i know this? He is home all the time now. Where as before he would be at her house after his main job to help her. But of course I'm not going to be blind to the fact he may have seen her during the day for lunch or so forth. I just have to go by what he is doing that is a positive. As well as I think he is still talking to her by phone as indicated by his phone archive. Within the six weeks that has happened four times to my knowledge. so it's lessening. But still I can't see why he can't go cold turkey. If I feel he feels uncomfortable by something I'm doing I will follow his wish and stop. Can't see why he can't do the same. Yeah I get it.....the fog.

You've been in an EA. How long? Did you ever stop to think how this was effecting you W? Did you even care?


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## TCSRedhead (Oct 17, 2012)

If he's still in contact, it's not over. He's biding his time until you 'relax'. 

This needs to be handled directly. Return the money. Eat the loss. How is he spending SOoO much time there and no work is done? That gives you the answer about what he was doing there.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SeenBetterDays (Mar 4, 2013)

Busy Accountant said:


> Hi Seen
> 
> I'm sorry you are here. I agree with the EA, possible PA analysis and the need for confirmation with VAR's etc. I can't add to that conversation.
> 
> ...


Busy,

Your points 1-4 hit the nail on the head!
The one that hurts the most is, putting another woman's well being above mine. I don't get how any spouse could do such a thing. I wouldn't!

As for the OW. She's loud, obnoxious, manipulating and controlling. All the things I'm not. She needs to know where he is at all times. Plus she tells him what to do. As for beauty. She's average. OW is not someone you would take a second glance at if you saw her on the street. But she's confident. As far as getting a single guy to like her? Her above negative qualities drive them away. Why does my H stick around? She knows how to boast his ego...that is the only thing I can think of.

And yes, she is making a fool of him. Others around us have noticed their relationship is way off.

This Thursday I have an appointment with a lawyer. I do not want a D. but this may be what is needed to achieve our success.

Thank you for your advice and great points.


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## Hurt&confused92 (Apr 6, 2013)

best to you. I will keep you in my prayers.


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## Busy Accountant (Mar 15, 2013)

You go girl! Keep us up to date. Good luck.


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## SeenBetterDays (Mar 4, 2013)

Update.

Saw a lawyer today concerning my situation. Everything is just cut and dry shouldn't be any complications if I decide to go through with it. Didn't tell my H. Not sure if I should. OW is still calling but he has been ignoring her calls. Not sure what that means. 

He still insists that I'm making a big deal about this, their just friends so he say's. Yeah right. I don't know about that my dear. I myself don't go around telling men I love them and miss them!!! In fact I gave up all male friends before we got married. I thought my H was going to be my one and only best friend. I guess for him I'm not his!


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## whywhy804 (Jan 16, 2013)

SeenBetterDays said:


> Update.
> 
> Saw a lawyer today concerning my situation. Everything is just cut and dry shouldn't be any complications if I decide to go through with it. Didn't tell my H. Not sure if I should. OW is still calling but he has been ignoring her calls. Not sure what that means.
> 
> He still insists that I'm making a big deal about this, their just friends so he say's. Yeah right. I don't know about that my dear. I myself don't go around telling men I love them and miss them!!! In fact I gave up all male friends before we got married. I thought my H was going to be my one and only best friend. I guess for him I'm not his!


I am in a similar situation too... Heard him saying I miss you a lot and that always echoes in my ears... R is really hard and it takes a long time. It is 10 months but I still cel if I took the right decision. Unlike you my husband is always negative about me. He told me she was like a mentor, always there for him... 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SeenBetterDays (Mar 4, 2013)

whywhy804 said:


> I am in a similar situation too... Heard him saying I miss you a lot and that always echoes in my ears... R is really hard and it takes a long time. It is 10 months but I still cel if I took the right decision. Unlike you my husband is always negative about me. He told me she was like a mentor, always there for him...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I hope things turn out for you. 

My husband also said he confided in the OW.
He even discussed things with her he didn't discuss with me.

Keep positive!


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## walkonmars (Aug 21, 2012)

You should let him know you are firmly serious about your marriage. He's either your man or he's not. No inbetween and no one inbetween.

Tell him you are so serious you've seen a family law attorney and know what you have to do if he insists on continuing an inappropriate relationship that will ruin your marriage. 

Tell him you won't sit still while he wrecks the marriage. He'either all in or he's out. Be firm. Don't beg him, cry, or appear weak.


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## SeenBetterDays (Mar 4, 2013)

walkonmars said:


> You should let him know you are firmly serious about your marriage. He's either your man or he's not. No inbetween and no one inbetween.
> 
> Tell him you are so serious you've seen a family law attorney and know what you have to do if he insists on continuing an inappropriate relationship that will ruin your marriage.
> 
> Tell him you won't sit still while he wrecks the marriage. He'either all in or he's out. Be firm. Don't beg him, cry, or appear weak.


I told him this morning what I had done. It's not in my nature to keep secrets from my husband. If I expect openness and transparency from him I must do the same.

He got all weepy eyed and told me he didn't want to hurt me in any way shape or form. But again he still insists they are just friends.

I had to repeat what i already said to him. "Married individuals do NOT tell their platonic friends how much they miss them that they love them and send OXOX first thing in the morning to their so call friend." And I have found out that others that know us, as well as our two sons, feel the relationship with this woman is inappropriate. There are rumors being spread that my husband is having an affair.

If others see this my dear then why can't you?

I told him I was going to have to tell this woman myself. He said he didn't mind if i voiced my opinion to her. Which tells me he is in need of help extracting himself from this situation. as another poster suggested or he's playing with me. He is that nice guy that doesn't want to hurt anyone's feelings, except mine apparently.

The KISA Syndrome.

He's got the ball now I told him. Your either in this or not. But I can't wake every morning wondering if we are ONE, as he has told me we are or out accommodating another woman's needs.


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## SeenBetterDays (Mar 4, 2013)

Oh and he thinks it's okay if she still calls. Which she does, 1 to 2 times a week now, opposed to the 100+ per week prior my confronting him. He ignores them still. But who knows what he does when I'm not around.

Sorry! this just triggered me because she just called. Only way I knew this is because I looked. Phone unattended.....


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## Busy Accountant (Mar 15, 2013)

This is a forum of rational support, but excuse me for venting a moment. When he said that he didn't want to hurt you (with those weepy eyes....) did you put your hands on his shoulders, get right up to his face and say.......THAT SHIP DONE SAILED!!!!!!!? WHEW!

Every time he tells you he is NOT having an affair, he's admitting an affair! He is saying they ARE just friends. By now, that would be in past tense if he was in NC. I understand the withdrawal thing, but we are talking since the end of January - right? She is still calling? The question is where is his loyalty as you fully recognize. If he wants you, HE needs to find a way to enforce it, not you. Do not fight his battles for him, he needs to fight for you. He may need IC or MC to help him.
I still maintain that contacting OW yourself is a BAD idea. He needs to put a stop to this for 2 reasons. First, she will not stop contacting him based on your word. Second, he needs to put your emotional needs first, starting now. Starting by ending it with her. Even if he thinks he's just friends, seriously did you ever have a reaction like that when you lost a friend? In our own MC, the C was clear that H had to end it, not me.

Did you mention that nasty book you want him to read again? YOU are about to LEAVE him......think he can get a little reading in? Perhaps you can buy him the audio version if it would help. How about that repair work? He has two contracts in his life that are conflicting...marital and repair. He has to break one.

Your comments about other people's observations is intriguing. How did you find this out? Does this help with perspective for you? Did some of their observations occur AFTER that NC date of late January? Your own SONS see it? What did H say about that? Does he have any concern about how his own flesh and blood sees him? Seen, I gotta say this, I'm really sorry if it hurts. Public humiliation would be a deal breaker for me. He would be out this weekend and out until he publicly pledged his commitment to you. BUT, I am not in your shoes, I do not feel your personal pain. I have a small parallel in my own situation. My H had multiple EA's on LinkedIN. One of his contacts on LinkedIN was a Manscaper in Vegas. By the way, she wasn't one of the EA's, there were no conversations I saw with her. He met her on a plane (so he says) and since she was starting her business he considered her an "entrepreneur". I pointed out to him that his legitimate business contacts had access to his list. I didn't give a crud what they thought about him, but I was very concerned with how it reflected on me. He either got her off the list that night, or he was gone.

Did you give him a deadline to "decide"? He may stretch this out as long as possible. Do not let him string you along. Perhaps another attorney appointment would be good. He needs to know the clock is ticking.

Hang in there.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

He has to stop all contact. No contact. NC.

If you're willing to see a lawyer, you should be able to be firm enough with your conditions. No arguing about 'just friends.' Just a simple statement from you about what is acceptable and what isn't. There are clear boundaries that he can no longer violate or you follow through with the lawyer.

Again, there is ABSOLUTELY no reason that you should spend your days with your heart breaking. If he thinks she's worth that, then he's not the husband for you. Simple.

He must block her number or get a new phone # that she doesn't have. No contact means no contact. Don't let him negotiate or whine or weasel. If he loves you, you are his priority, not her feelings. Finito.


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## SeenBetterDays (Mar 4, 2013)

Busy Accountant said:


> This is a forum of rational support, but excuse me for venting a moment. When he said that he didn't want to hurt you (with those weepy eyes....) did you put your hands on his shoulders, get right up to his face and say.......THAT SHIP DONE SAILED!!!!!!!? WHEW!
> 
> Every time he tells you he is NOT having an affair, he's admitting an affair! He is saying they ARE just friends. By now, that would be in past tense if he was in NC. I understand the withdrawal thing, but we are talking since the end of January - right? She is still calling? The question is where is his loyalty as you fully recognize. If he wants you, HE needs to find a way to enforce it, not you. Do not fight his battles for him, he needs to fight for you. He may need IC or MC to help him.
> I still maintain that contacting OW yourself is a BAD idea. He needs to put a stop to this for 2 reasons. First, she will not stop contacting him based on your word. Second, he needs to put your emotional needs first, starting now. Starting by ending it with her. Even if he thinks he's just friends, seriously did you ever have a reaction like that when you lost a friend? In our own MC, the C was clear that H had to end it, not me.
> ...


Please,vent away. I need all the advice and experience from those who have gone before me. I really appreciate it. Be it harsh or kind it, all helps.

I seriously thought about confronting her, but agree it is he who has to stop this. The thing is, if I happen to see her in public, she is the type that would confront me. That I am ready for, if it does happen. 

How did I find out that others know? This one is fascinating. I found it on my H phone in a text. A friend of ours told an acquaintance of ours....someone we had met in Nov. last year. This acquaintance is a friend of the above friend. You follow? The friend told the acquaintance my H was having a full blown affair with the OW. (The friend, acquaintance and my H all know the OW) The acquaintance tells my H which my H denied. Then my H went and told the OW, but neglected to tell me!!!!!

Talk about complicated?!!

Our sons haven't said anything to their father only that they don't like her. they both have helped a couple times at her home and now refuse to go back. but they have both told me their relationship is not right. they say she treats him like her BF.
I told this to my H and he tells me they are imagining it.

What do you say to that?

I've given him a week. That's probably being to generous. but it will give me a week to prepare my next move.

And yes my heart is breaking


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## SeenBetterDays (Mar 4, 2013)

alte Dame said:


> He has to stop all contact. No contact. NC.
> 
> If you're willing to see a lawyer, you should be able to be firm enough with your conditions. No arguing about 'just friends.' Just a simple statement from you about what is acceptable and what isn't. There are clear boundaries that he can no longer violate or you follow through with the lawyer.
> 
> ...


I've told him a dozen times, if she is what you desire then go to her. But he refuses. Say's I love you and can't imagine being without you.

I've given him a week and that is probably too generous!


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Given him a week for what?

Instead of saying 'If she is what you want go to her,' you should say 'If she is so important that you will continue to hurt me then you must leave. I am done.'

You think you're being generous, but you're only prolonging things. Time and time again, we see that you have to draw an absolute line in the sand. If you don't have the bags packed and ready to end things, he'll continue to think that he can have his cake and eat it too. Sadly, this is the case over and over.


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## SeenBetterDays (Mar 4, 2013)

alte Dame said:


> Given him a week for what?
> 
> Instead of saying 'If she is what you want go to her,' you should say 'If she is so important that you will continue to hurt me then you must leave. I am done.'
> 
> You think you're being generous, but you're only prolonging things. Time and time again, we see that you have to draw an absolute line in the sand. If you don't have the bags packed and ready to end things, he'll continue to think that he can have his cake and eat it too. Sadly, this is the case over and over.


My situation may be different then most.

We sold our home and are renting in an area I particularity don't like.
So I'm the one that is leaving. I need a week to do so. And if in that time he can change my mind. Then so be it.

And you are right. I should have reworded what I said to him.

The bottom line is, No more contact in any way shape or form is what I said to him. I don't care if he claims to be just friends. That's not the way others or I see it. It must stop now or I'm gone.

That is what I said.


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## bravenewworld (Mar 24, 2013)

Ugh the way you found out about this turns my stomach. I was in a similar situation of discovering right around our anniversary that an OW was involved. 

He pretended it was only an EA but I have since discovered it was PA as well. Unfortunately, for every rat you see, there are many more you don't. I am still discovering my ex's numerous lies. It's sickening. 

Just an FYI, OW dumped my ex not too long after we separated. :rofl:


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## Stonewall (Jul 5, 2011)

SeenBetterDays said:


> My situation may be different then most.
> 
> We sold our home and are renting in an area I particularity don't like.
> So I'm the one that is leaving. I need a week to do so. And if in that time he can change my mind. Then so be it.
> ...



Damn good for you girl. Stand your ground!!!


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## Busy Accountant (Mar 15, 2013)

I am thinking of you Seen. Its going to be a long week. I would have also said that a week is long, but ultimately the deadline is about you, not him. I understand why it is as long as it is. Hopefully, he'll come to some conclusion before then. Honestly, its quite a simple analysis when you boil it down.

Sounds like you are preparing to move out. Does that reflect your gut feel on how this is going to go? Do you have a plan on how R is going to look if he decides to go that way? My point is this. He has promised NC before and I think its clear that he has not honored that. What are you going to do to enforce it this time? First thing I would suggest is that YOU get him a new phone and set up a new billing relationship where you can monitor texts and phone calls. It may not require a change in his phone number, and since he does have a business, it may be good to keep his number. Two, I'd still install a VAR and GPS in his truck/car. I know you are into this "transparency" thing (hehe) but I would keep that a secret. "Trust but verify".

Now, I have one scenario that may involve confronting the OW. If H wants R, I would give him one more chance to come clean about the entire relationship with OW. Have a list of questions prepared when you talk to him. Then I would have H call OW in your presence, with you listening in. If he makes ONE move to block your ability to listen...walk out the door. Even OW's greeting when she answers is going to reveal something to you. Have H arrange to see her, preferably ASAP. Then take away his phone and NEVER leave his side until you go see her. You need to make sure they have NO ability to communicate from the time he calls until you BOTH see her. When you arrive at her house, he cannot have any chance at even non-verbal communication. Perhaps a ski mask would help....or a paper bag with little holes cut out at the eyes.....or a PLASTIC bag..(did I just say that?). OK, OK, I"m being facetious. H sits behind OW, check for mirrors, etc. Then ask OW about their relationship. Address the same questions you covered with H. Plus let her spew about anything else she wants. I have a feeling she would LOVE spilling her guts to you. You will either confirm or refute his story and will gauge his sincerity around R. She may embellish....H may deny in her presence...this thing could go many ways. After the discussion H presents her with NC letter and a refund check. You will need to be completely detached as you do this. Very difficult. Between now and then I suggest you practice by playing some poker.

Now, after all this, I would totally defer to those on this site who are way more experienced than me. If you do consider this, I hope you get additional input from others. This is just a thought of mine. If you don't do this, and OW confronts you, your only response should be, "my marriage is none of your business".

Sounds like H is starting to figure out he's cornered. You have done a good job! Keep up the pressure. Stay strong. Keep in touch.


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## SeenBetterDays (Mar 4, 2013)

Update!

Just want to also say thanks to everyone who is thinking of me and to your advice and support.

The update;

H has been home all week with me...vacation time for him and he is really pulling his weight to try and gain my trust again.

But! why is there always a BUT?

At the beginning of the week, Monday, I put my suit case on the dinning room table and began packing it. H asked what i was doing. I told him that we already went over this scenario. I'm preparing for my exit. As I already said to you, if you are not serious about our marriage, then there is NO reason to stay married. Inside of course I just wanted to cry.....but I showed none of those emotions to him...tried to keep a strong presence. H started crying. Oh MAN! I went into the other room so I didn't feel any remorse or have to see him cry. That was hard to do. I wanted to comfort him but knew I shouldn't. So I went back to what I was doing. Since I was packing, I also started cleaning out all the junk we hard accumulated from our move from our home to this rental. H came in and told me how sorry he was for putting me through such pain and was not going to let me leave. I said to him...then lets work on it. He agreed, that was on Monday evening. Come Thursday, I'm still cleaning out things, my suit case is still on table half packed. H went out to a side job. What do I find? A box in the corner of walk in closet. A fairly large box behind other boxes. In it are brand new clothes..never worn, a skill saw still in box, new socket set unopened and various other tools not used. Call husband, tell him what I found. Seems OW has been buying him things and he excepted them and hid them away...never used them! I thought she was strapped for cash?!!!!! Well I was LIVID. I took the items, didn't tell H, drove them to her house. She was not home, I dumped the crap on her front entry..smashed the box, wrote a note that said, DON'T EVER CONTACT US AGAIN and signed both our names, stabbed it with a pen through part of the box!

I just couldn't help myself. Had to do it!

Haven't heard from her yet. Sure we will.

Husband was very apologetic about the whole thing. Told me WE ARE WORKING ON OUR MARRIAGE AND YOU ARE NOT LEAVING!! I told him that, if there are any more secrets he better confess now. because when Monday comes around I MAY be GONE, It's all up to you. 

Nothing else has come out, of course the OW has not responded yet.

We'll see.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

This is so hard. We know. You're doing great handling this.

Stay firm and resolved. This is the only thing that he will truly understand.

Good luck!


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## TCSRedhead (Oct 17, 2012)

You're doing fantastic - stay firm. Do not waffle, not one bit.


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## No longer Blind (Apr 5, 2013)

WOW, I wish I had your courage. I am getting there; reading your post have helped me a lot. It has been almost three weeks since my DD. I am still so lost, however; your story has struck me hard and I feel myself waking up. 

Stay Strong!!!


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## Busy Accountant (Mar 15, 2013)

Seen
Pen stab in the box - Nice touch!

1. Has H recognized and admitted that his relationship with OW was in fact an affair or does he still think this is a friendship? My H also had EA's and even after I confronted him he still thought that they were work friendships and that I just had a problem with them. It wasn't until the MC defined emotional affairs to H that he got it. That admission from my H was over 4 weeks after I confronted him. Your H needs to understand that he has crossed a line and MUST be remorseful. I hear you say he is emotional right now, but why? Is it because he is afraid of losing you and his family, because he hurt you or because he sees that what he has done is truly wrong? That silly little book "Not Just Friends" would help!!!! Has he started reading it yet? If he still refuses, I would question his motives.
2. Your anger is justified! I'm sure you are fluctuating between that and hurt. Use your anger to continue to stay strong! You are a class act Seen!!
3. Be ready for the OW confrontation. Sounds like its going to happen. Channel your anger again to help you be controlled and calculated with her. Remember she is the outsider in this process and has NO vested interest in and NO say in your marriage.
4. On wanting to comfort your H...how difficult for you to deal with these feelings! Do you remember when you were raising your sons? You had to watch them hurt at times in order for them to learn, to grow. It was hard, wasn't it? This is the same thing Seen. I'm not comparing your H to a child, but its the same theory. He MUST experience this pain in order to get to a place that is healthy for you both. Can I tell you something else? You are worth this pain!!! Look at it!! This OW threw herself at your H (really sounds that way, doesn't it?), even so far as buying her way into his heart! H is going to have to work for you, and he chose which path he is on. The more he works for you, the more valuable he proves you are to him. He owes that to you.

On another point about his pain and this comes from my experience. My H was truly remorseful, but he didn't show me the pain that he was experiencing. On the outside, my H was more analytical and intellectual about what we were going through. I wanted to see him hurt more than he did. The MC asked me that at one of our meetings....Did I want H to feel as bad as I did? My answer was yes. It wasn't an intentional feeling for me. It wasn't vengeful. I just wanted H to understand how badly I hurt. By the way, the MC said that was ok. Stay strong during those emotional times for your H. Don't soften the blows. Your shared pain will eventually be part of the foundation of your new relationship.

Hang tough.


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## Busy Accountant (Mar 15, 2013)

I"m really sorry, I get long-winded.


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## SeenBetterDays (Mar 4, 2013)

Busy Accountant said:


> Seen
> Pen stab in the box - Nice touch!
> 
> 1. Has H recognized and admitted that his relationship with OW was in fact an affair or does he still think this is a friendship? My H also had EA's and even after I confronted him he still thought that they were work friendships and that I just had a problem with them. It wasn't until the MC defined emotional affairs to H that he got it. That admission from my H was over 4 weeks after I confronted him. Your H needs to understand that he has crossed a line and MUST be remorseful. I hear you say he is emotional right now, but why? Is it because he is afraid of losing you and his family, because he hurt you or because he sees that what he has done is truly wrong? That silly little book "Not Just Friends" would help!!!! Has he started reading it yet? If he still refuses, I would question his motives.
> ...


You asked if my H has admitted that the relationship with OW is an affair? No, he still sees it as a really close friendship. He said he didn't like seeing me cry, feeling depressed and upset. That is why he stopped going over to help her and responding to her text and calls.
It's really been about 2 weeks that he has ignored her text and calls....and about 8 weeks now he has not seen her. But she still continues to text, no calls.

I'm not sure what to make of it.

I believe he thinks if he admits to an affair, it is a failure in every-ones eyes. He doesn't believe in D and he ridicules those who have had affairs. His sister had an affair and D. He was all over her, couldn't understand why she did what she did. In her case, it was justified. Her H was controlling and would not let her see her own family, only if he said so.

So this is his mind set. He doesn't believe in divorce and affairs are all about being physical and having intercourse.

How does one explain to someone with this mind set that there are different types of affairs?

As for the book. It still takes it's prominent position on the table. When he gets to close to it I say, Watch out. It may stand up and bite you. His response is. "Just because it appears the pages haven't been turned dose not mean they haven't" Okay! maybe he has read some of it and is not letting on.

In any case my bags are still packed. I do have a place to go if need be. My question to myself now is....Will he ever admit to this friendship as an affair? Do I leave to make him understand or stay and hope he comes around.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Sent you a PM, SBD.


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## Busy Accountant (Mar 15, 2013)

I know today is a big day for you and I am thinking of you.

Seen, I am 14 months in R with my H. Despite the fact that he is doing all the right things now, it all still hurts every day. He had 3 work related EA’s that I discovered in Feb, 2012. None of them were sexual but they were all wrong, very wrong. The EA’s went on for 2 ½ years, 2 years and 1 year. Yep at times he had them all going on at once. When I confronted him, he also just thought they were friendships. EA’s are like that, sometimes they can be subject to interpretation. PA’s are clear acts that are commonly held as a betrayal. Those of us who are dealing with EA’s deal with the hurt of an affair, but also the ambiguity of defining the relationship to begin with! We have a battle to fight (sometimes within ourselves) about where the line is and when and how it got crossed, even before we fight the battle against the pain and chaos it caused in our lives. H also never thought about an affair being anything other than a physical encounter. The vows we took so long ago promised way more than “I’m not going to have sex with anyone else ever again”. Heck, if that’s all we promised our wedding would have been way shorter than it was! It took marital counseling for him to understand that. It took 5 more months of MC to get all the pain out that he caused. 
It is absolutely essential that you and H eventually come to a common definition about what this relationship with OW was. This is not a case where the two of you can “agree to disagree”. If the relationship was truly “only” a friendship (he says close and even that is on the edge) then this entire thing becomes YOUR problem to get over. If the relationship is an EA, the he has a LOT of work to do! Defining this relationship defines who is accountable.
I am glad your H is committed to your marriage. Somewhere deep inside him, he’s a smart guy!! He clearly picked the right woman! Use the leverage you have to get him to MC. Don’t waiver on that at all. Make it a non-negotiable condition of your continued participation in the marriage. Maybe the MC is going to have to fight the battle of properly defining this as an EA with you. That’s why they get paid the big bucks!
I’m going to make one more comment. The MC you pick is really important. We had experience with two therapists in the past (dealing with a significant illness of one of our children). The one was a no-nonsense woman. The other was an older man. He had a very gentle spirit, but had a clear sense of boundaries and accountability. Our marriage would not have survived the female’s style. Also, I think if my H felt that two women were “beating up on him” at the same time he would have shut down. Sounds like your H may be the same way. Toward the end of our time with the MC, MC commended H on the fact that once he realized what was going on, H was open and really wasn’t defensive at all. He was right! H had done a good job!
Even if you decide to stay Seen, keep your bags packed. Keep the pressure on!
I’m happy to discuss details of my experience with you privately. Let me know via PM if you would like. Keep in touch.


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## SeenBetterDays (Mar 4, 2013)

Okay.........so I left!

I don't know why really. H has been doing all the right things.....started reading that pesky book, "Not Just Friends" say's he's on the second chapter. OW responded with a text on Wed. stating she needed to hear from him. I guess it may have something to do with the pile of junk I discarded on her entry door way....oh well. As to my knowledge he has not responded to her. 

I guess it was what he said to me Thursday morning. H said "Maybe this was a good thing this all happened". 

You know....that just hit me the wrong way. Maybe it was the mood I was in...not sure,it just made me boil inside. So I zipped up my bag and left....that was Thur. morning....H has been calling....I don't respond.

I guess I should ask what he meant by that.

Wish me luck!


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## Silverlining (Jan 15, 2012)

His choice of words IMO shows he is still not taking accountability of what he's done. It's like saying, "Gee, that wasn't so bad". 

Nothing good ever comes from infidelity. The glue can fix the cracks and paint can cover up the marks, but when shown under a bright light, it's still a vase that was once broken. It can never be whole again. 

Infidelity takes something from you.....


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Yes, it 'happened.' He didn't actively do it. And look at the potential for bringing the two of you closer together! Not, it seems.

You must have wanted to go if you upped and did it like that. Now you will see how both of you feel. He will have to figure out what he wants and you will find yourself doing the same. It won't just be you trying to get him to break off his A. You will now start seeing your horizons broadened and you will ask yourself bigger questions about what you want. I could be wrong, but I sense that in your words.


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## TCSRedhead (Oct 17, 2012)

The distance may give you some time to clear your thoughts and figure out what you want in the long term. It also may wake him up and realize exactly what he has on the table to lose.

IF you do go back, send the OW a certified letter instructing her she is not to contact EITHER of you in any way. If she does, file a restraining order. She's one of the persistent ones who is going to look for a confrontation.


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## bravenewworld (Mar 24, 2013)

Good luck Seen. No matter what your decision is, I think it's important that you are taking time away from your WS to make it. 

I did the same and a close friend of mine did as well. Our final decisions were different but we both agreed that time apart from our WS made us truly "own" the decision as opposed to just feeling stuck.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

SeenBetterDays said:


> Okay.........so I left!
> 
> I don't know why really. H has been doing all the right things.....started reading that pesky book, "Not Just Friends" say's he's on the second chapter. OW responded with a text on Wed. stating she needed to hear from him. I guess it may have something to do with the pile of junk I discarded on her entry door way....oh well. As to my knowledge he has not responded to her.
> 
> ...


To be frank, I don't blame you one bit. Doesn't seem to be any humility or contriteness in general. Say 'I'm sorry', read a book... that's not reconciliation. 

To me, it's a broken spirit of the betrayer. One that is _genuinely_ broken over their betrayal and seeks to change every aspect of their addiction (betrayal). And even that may not be enough.

It seems to me your betrayer has taken a light hearted approach and moved on with little true regard to you.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

thatbpguy said:


> To be frank, I don't blame you one bit. Doesn't seem to be any humility or contriteness in general. Say 'I'm sorry', read a book... that's not reconciliation.
> 
> To me, it's a broken spirit of the betrayer. One that is _genuinely_ broken over their betrayal and seeks to change every aspect of their addiction (betrayal). And even that may not be enough.
> 
> It seems to me your betrayer has taken a light hearted approach and moved on with little true regard to you.


Yes, for sure. He doesn't even admit he's been in an affair & went for a long time continuing his behavior knowing that he was hurting his W.


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## Busy Accountant (Mar 15, 2013)

Hi Seen

Be good to yourself during this time away. Do things that feed your soul. I know how hard you have been working. If it hadn't been that comment, it would have been another that eventually brought you to the place you are today.

I'm a little late to this, so perhaps you have already talked to your H, but I'll play devil's advocate. He may have no clue what he meant when he said what he did. I totally agree that his comment does not reflect his personal accountability for what HE did. However, I recall things you said about his attitude about affairs and the fact that he did even think emotional affairs existed. Seen, this is going to be a very long journey for him, and at the end, he will have a very bitter pill to swallow. The "this" in that sentence may be the "turmoil" or the "wake up call", not the affair itself. His comment may reflect the first bit of realization that "something" actually did happen! I just starting reading that book too. I had read numerous article and all the MC, but I had never read it. The beginning chapters talk about "what happens" in someone's marriage and they also comment about how marriage can be stronger after rebuilding trust. I'm not here to debate that issue, but instead to point out that at this point in your H's journey, all he may be capable of is "book speak". He may be just realizing that EA's exist...then he has to reflect on his own actions and attitudes and put them into the context of what he has learned..and THEN face the most hurtful truth of all. That he was weak enough to have an affair and betray the woman he loves the most. If you think he's trying, pick up a second copy of the book and try to reread it from his point of view. Now I could be completely wrong on all of this and he could be trying to rug sweep. So continue to keep up the pressure.

Second, be prepared for a LOT of stupid comments. You and your H are likely to be on different levels of emotional maturity. Me and my H were. So, things that are obvious to you may not be to him. I am not suggesting that you bury your feelings here, but you do need to encourage H when he seems to be headed in the right direction. Prepare him for the fact that you may fly off the handle over something that seems completely benign to him. Assure him though that COMPLETE HONESTY is the best policy! That is going to be a difficult road to travel. You are doing to have to walk a tight rope so he doesn't start walking on egg shells. WHEW! Just so you know, my H told me once that I would have liked the one woman if I had met her under different conditions....she was the most dispicable of the three!!!! Seen, I think I expelled all the air in my lungs and saw white! I was so mad! After a bit of a fit of anger from me, we discussed it further. He said it was because she was "nice". NICE? It ended up being a productive conversation about how "nice" people are, but that doesn't reflect what they are on the inside, and certainly doesn't entitle him to enter into a texting relationship with anyone he considers "nice". He's finally decided she wasn't "nice" and was more of a needy, flirty desparate ho.....MUCH BETTER.....

Finally, now that he is reading, he needs to work on a new phone...one that can block messages, and one that you can check his call and text history online. One step at a time!

Anyway, continuing to think of you Seen.


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## SeenBetterDays (Mar 4, 2013)

alte Dame said:


> Sent you a PM, SBD.


I printed it and placed it on the refrigerator before I zipped my bag and slipped out the door.

Thank you for that.


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## SeenBetterDays (Mar 4, 2013)

Tomorrow will be a week that I've left to discover what i want.

I've talked to H all of 20 minutes since I left. Actually he talked I listened. He has been reading that pesky book" not Just Friends" and sees himself within the pages. He feels we need to restart on a positive note because we have so much life to look forward too. He doesn't want me to be negative!!! okay....

What i took away from that listen experience is......He's taking light of it, as has already been suggested. It's as if he's removed himself from it. He kinda acknowledges it...but doesn't. I think in his head hes thinking, alright, I know, you know, let's move on! He doesn't seem to want to talk about it.

I can't say that works for me.

In any case I will return home tomorrow...He will be leaving for a family reunion with his brothers.

I don't know


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Has he had contact with the OW?

It's very common to want to rugsweep, really very common. He sounds like he's waiting for you to 'come to your senses.' One WH here whose W discovered his EA said he 'would take his medicine and then look forward to the make-up sex.' He really thought it would blow over in a day.

Good luck with your ruminations. At least he's seeing himself in the Glass book. I get the feeling that you want some true empathy and recognition from him of the hurt that he has caused. He may get there yet. He has to have absolute NC first, though.


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## SeenBetterDays (Mar 4, 2013)

alte Dame said:


> Has he had contact with the OW?
> 
> It's very common to want to rugsweep, really very common. He sounds like he's waiting for you to 'come to your senses.' One WH here whose W discovered his EA said he 'would take his medicine and then look forward to the make-up sex.' He really thought it would blow over in a day.
> 
> Good luck with your ruminations. At least he's seeing himself in the Glass book. I get the feeling that you want some true empathy and recognition from him of the hurt that he has caused. He may get there yet. He has to have absolute NC first, though.


During the 20 min conversation he said he had talked to OW on the phone. OW kept calling so he finally answered. OW was whining how lonely she was and missed him. She was so thankful he was in her life. H told her he could no longer see her or help her. At least that is what he told me......do I believe it? Not totally convinced. I'm not convinced because I found out someone saw them out in public chatting, during this past week that I've been gone. OP said it was a quick chat. Other things have come out concerning this EA. Also was told by my son(son overheard when helping his father at OW home) that OW was talking to husband about future plans.....places they should visit and restaurants they should try

Again I just listened,trying not to show to much emotions.

But I'm back.... just in enough time to say goodbye to H. He will be gone 4 days.

Yes! I would like to see more empathy and recognition from him.

I need to investigate more.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

No Contact.


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## TCSRedhead (Oct 17, 2012)

SeenBetterDays said:


> During the 20 min conversation he said he had talked to OW on the phone. OW kept calling so he finally answered. OW was whining how lonely she was and missed him. She was so thankful he was in her life. H told her he could no longer see her or help her. At least that is what he told me......do I believe it? Not totally convinced. I'm not convinced because I found out someone saw them out in public chatting, during this past week that I've been gone. OP said it was a quick chat. Other things have come out concerning this EA. Also was told by my son(son overheard when helping his father at OW home) that OW was talking to husband about future plans.....places they should visit and restaurants they should try
> 
> Again I just listened,trying not to show to much emotions.
> 
> ...


Ugh - he doesn't get that NO CONTACT means none, zip, zilch.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

SeenBetterDays said:


> I'm not convinced because I found out someone saw them out in public chatting, during this past week that I've been gone. OP said it was a quick chat. Other things have come out concerning this EA. Also was told by my son(son overheard when helping his father at OW home) that OW was talking to husband about future plans.....places they should visit and restaurants they should try


You need to get your house, money and bills in order. The last thing you need is to be blindsided by divorce papers or some other BS.

In front of your son? What a jerk. Yes, I know, it could have been overheard. Still, that is some asinine crap to have a discussion like that with your son anywhere in the vicinity. That is very arrogant.


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## Busy Accountant (Mar 15, 2013)

Hi Seen
You sound strong. Hang in there. What is your gut feel after your talk with H and your new information? You say you have to investigate further. What are your concerns? Are you still thinking it may be PA rather than EA? Also, what are your living plans once H is back in town? Are you staying or leaving?

Were the comments your son heard from a recent conversation between H and OW or from back when they were helping him last year? If they were from several months ago, prior to Jan 31st it helps define this relationship, especially for your H. Making plans like that are basically planning DATES in an EA environment. If those comments were heard recently, then you have a way bigger issue. The public chat is interesting. It’s either that the two of them are getting bold, or that H is not going underground. Like you said, keep your eyes wide open.

Now, about the convo H had with OW. He’s telling her once again that there is no more contact. I’m conflicted about that. First, he AGAIN told you he had contact with her even when he wasn’t supposed to. I’m sure you made NC clear to him. He may or may not be telling you the full truth BUT he has not gone underground. Also, you told him NC, perhaps, he has now gotten the same message in the book. He MAY take NC seriously this time because he got the NC conditions from somewhere besides you. Yep, you should carry more authority than that, but H has a long way to go. H is discounting what you say about all this. He is discounting your emotional response. The book’s only use is to give you credibility now. Some day, he needs to listen and respond to YOUR terms, your conditions for rebuilding trust and healing your hurts. We still need that new phone plan so you can monitor. Also, how about the refund check?

Look at OW’s response, according to H. She is lonely and she misses him. He basically admitted that she is emotionally involved with him. Would he have admitted that a month ago? What does that say about his level of emotional involvement with her? You used the word “whined” in your message. Is that the word he used? If so, that is significant! My H used the exact same word about one of his EA’s, once he started coming out of the fog. He was a KISA to a woman who had gotten fired from the company they both worked for. She had a very pretty smile, she had a way of ogling all over him, telling him what a great guy he was, then leaned on him for emotional support over the fact that she was an incompetent liar while she was employed there! He stroked her ego for 2 ½ years, calling her a blooming flower….telling her he was her friend and confidante, they had "dinner" (DATES!)…..encouraging her as she opened a new business…as a job coach (she got fired for lying)!!!!! After taking at look at it all realistically, he said, “ya know, I was starting to get tired of her always whining about her “miserable” life”. BINGO!

On the matter of moving forward. My H had the same attitude even after he realized/admitted he was having affairs and had a great amount of remorse over it. He just wanted to put it all in the past and move forward with a better marriage. WHOA!!!! I brought that up in MC. Now, of course the MC said we had lots of work to do in healing the hurts, but he also said that that attitude is very typical for men who have had affairs. They just want it over, and want to move on. I heard it, said tough luck; it’s not time to move on. Remember, this is that kind gentle male MC I referred to in an earlier message. I started IC with that no nonsense female about 6 months after D Day. She mentioned the EXACT same thing!... that guys just want to move past the mess and be better in the future! This time, not only did I hear her, but I believed her! Now, that doesn’t mean H’s are right…but it means that your H may be typical for those who sincerely want to recommit to their marriages.

I used an analogy with my H on this matter. I think it helped him. Imagine I’m in a cross walk and I get hit by a car (yep, he’s the driver). He gets out of the car and wants to help me up and get me on my way. Wait a minute!!! My leg is broken, I have cuts and bruises and internal injuries no one sees. No matter how badly he wants me to get up and move on, I can’t. I need the ambulance, a few days stay in the hospital, crutches and lots of tlc from H when I get home. Noone would expect someone with such physical trauma to get up and walk away. It’s the same way with emotional trauma. You have suffered great emotional trauma at his hand. Your recovery is on YOUR timeframe, not his.

The fact that he is telling you things is good. You can use them to continue to open his eyes. But, you are walking that tight rope. You want him to continue to talk, but not throw everything he says back in his face. That will make him shut down and walk on eggshells. Give him some tidbits for him to chew on after he had returned from his trip…alone. BUT keep your eyes open. This could still turn sour. While H is chewing on his tidbits, you get a pedicure, with a glass of wine, with cucumbers resting on your eyes….Matthew McConaughey doing the pedicure….wait, lose the cucumbers.


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## SeenBetterDays (Mar 4, 2013)

It's been awhile.....Some days are good, today...not so!

Just plugging along...

H seem to be doing everything to speed forward to a happy marriage.

In the back of my mind...thoughts,it seems like the calm before the storm. Sure enough OW has been calling. I checked phone. Doesn't look liked he answered. From my observation of her, those few times I was in the same room with her....OW is not going to roll over and play DEAD....She's got balls this one....very persistent!!!!

I've coined her, Controlling, Manipulative, Narcissistic Sociopath.
Seems to fit.

I think I may have to confront her just to stand my ground. And I mean face to face. 

Something H said. EA, it seems are a Cultural Thing?

Any thoughts


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

EA's have been going on since the dawn of time, in all cultures. We call them EA's now, but they are infatuations that can turn into something more dangerous for a marriage. 

How is it that she can't be blocked from calling him? At the very least, he could change his number. He seems to need you to pull him out of this. Can't you force the issue with the phone?


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## Busy Accountant (Mar 15, 2013)

I like the "hit 'em hard when they least expect it" approach. I think it is time you played hard ball with OW. Since you have talked to an attorney, I suggest you consult with him/ her on this matter. Many times a sternly worded registered letter on attorney letterhead is all that it takes to cut someone down to size. She needs to know you are not messing around with this anymore. Your H needs to be an active and visible part of this effort as well.

I think EA's have a better chance of forming or at least be more visible especially when you compare to the 50-60's. 
1. There are way more women in careers that were typically male, and the other way around too, male nurses, male flight attendants. In fact, there are many careers now where one would not typically think of it as a male dominated career (accounting, engineering) I was one of those women in the late 70's early 80's and I know what I (and my female colleagues) thought about the wives of our male counterparts. We thought they were lazy gold diggers who wre just interested in hanging out at the pool in the summer. We didn't respect them at all. We thought we were way smarter than they were and because of that, we were entitled to be "friends" with their husbands. If they had a college degree but chose not to work, we said all they really wanted was an MRS. degree. We were arrogant, ignorant snots. I am proud to say I have grown up. One of the women my H had an EA with did not.
2. Women are more able to support themselve in the event of a divorce. I am not saying that all divorced women would disrespect someone else's martial vows, but H's OW certainly did. Married women can do that too. Its not like in the old days.
3. I think there is a "modern" notion out there that men and women can be "friends", but honesly I think that is truly a rare circumstance. They may be able to work together well, pursue common interests, but beyond that, the lines are easily blurred and crossed. I think people find themselves in places they just didn't expect, because they are not aware of the nuances of male/female relationships. When two people get married they may say something like "I'll be true to you". They don't get into the details, like..."I won't enjoy working for a woman who has amazing legs, too much when she flirts with me right after you had our first baby". "I won't put another woman's emotional needs before yours right 20 years from now" We can't anticipate what life is going to throw in front of us. So, when it comes, we can get off track.
4. I also think society "forgives" affairs way more. There is less stigma to it.

It continues to sound like H is thinking. Now you need to get him to talk about the "F" word.....feelings. Can he say what he "felt" for OW? How about how he "feels" about her now. I would think her persistance is starting to get a bit annoying, even to him. No more KISA.


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## notperfectanymore (Mar 1, 2012)

SeenBetterDays said:


> It's been awhile.....Some days are good, today...not so!
> 
> Just plugging along...
> 
> ...


I have just read your entire thread...first of all...big hugz... 

Now....you have a crazy "Bunny Boiler" on your hands....shut that biotch DOWN.....

I would, and have literally in my past....PM me if you interested in hearing how to put the fear of GAWD into this crazy home wrecker....that probably won't fix things with your hubby...but woman to woman you NEED to shut her down  More hugz.....


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## TCSRedhead (Oct 17, 2012)

SeenBetterDays said:


> It's been awhile.....Some days are good, today...not so!
> 
> Just plugging along...
> 
> ...


The fact that he's not telling you this and you're having to find out on your own is NOT a sign of a remorseful husband.

Have him write a no contact letter, sign it and send it via certified mail.

After that, if she continues to call/email, file a restraining order.

Why is't he talking to you about these calls? Did you ever find out why he was seen out with her after you moved out last time?


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## pb76no (Nov 1, 2012)

Seen: I just have one question for you - or maybe for you to ask him. Why hasn't he blocked her number?


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## SeenBetterDays (Mar 4, 2013)

alte Dame said:


> EA's have been going on since the dawn of time, in all cultures. We call them EA's now, but they are infatuations that can turn into something more dangerous for a marriage.
> 
> How is it that she can't be blocked from calling him? At the very least, he could change his number. He seems to need you to pull him out of this. Can't you force the issue with the phone?


I was just researching this phone issue. I think I may have mention H phone is one of those antiquated phones that does not allow you to block individual numbers. My research tells me I need to make a group list on his phone and then block that list. this is very annoying but I plan to try that when he gets home or help him do it. He is a procrastinator!


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## TCSRedhead (Oct 17, 2012)

SeenBetterDays said:


> He is a procrastinator!


He should be jumping through hoops of fire right now to make this happen and ensure he saves his marriage.


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## SeenBetterDays (Mar 4, 2013)

Busy Accountant said:


> I like the "hit 'em hard when they least expect it" approach. I think it is time you played hard ball with OW. Since you have talked to an attorney, I suggest you consult with him/ her on this matter. Many times a sternly worded registered letter on attorney letterhead is all that it takes to cut someone down to size. She needs to know you are not messing around with this anymore. Your H needs to be an active and visible part of this effort as well.
> 
> I think EA's have a better chance of forming or at least be more visible especially when you compare to the 50-60's.
> 1. There are way more women in careers that were typically male, and the other way around too, male nurses, male flight attendants. In fact, there are many careers now where one would not typically think of it as a male dominated career (accounting, engineering) I was one of those women in the late 70's early 80's and I know what I (and my female colleagues) thought about the wives of our male counterparts. We thought they were lazy gold diggers who wre just interested in hanging out at the pool in the summer. We didn't respect them at all. We thought we were way smarter than they were and because of that, we were entitled to be "friends" with their husbands. If they had a college degree but chose not to work, we said all they really wanted was an MRS. degree. We were arrogant, ignorant snots. I am proud to say I have grown up. One of the women my H had an EA with did not.
> ...


I asked how he felt about her. He continues to tell me the same thing, that he thinks of her as a really good friend. I said to him you, texted her and said you loved her? What does that mean to you? He told me never to say that again.

So I'm not sure how he really feels about her now. A few times I have said something negative about the OW. He say's I need to be nice and not say these things. I need to stay positive.

He has me confused at times. He seems very dedicated then he drifts on me..


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## TCSRedhead (Oct 17, 2012)

SeenBetterDays said:


> I asked how he felt about her. He continues to tell me the same thing, that he thinks of her as a really good friend. I said to him you, texted her and said you loved her? What does that mean to you? He told me never to say that again.
> 
> So I'm not sure how he really feels about her now. A few times I have said something negative about the OW. He say's I need to be nice and not say these things. I need to stay positive.
> 
> He has me confused at times. He seems very dedicated then he drifts on me..


This is the WRONG attitude. This 'friend' nearly cost him his marriage. She should not be defended for any reason. 

I'm not trying to harp on you but it's really alarming to see that he's coming to her defense considering what's happened.


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## SeenBetterDays (Mar 4, 2013)

TCSRedhead said:


> The fact that he's not telling you this and you're having to find out on your own is NOT a sign of a remorseful husband.
> 
> Have him write a no contact letter, sign it and send it via certified mail.
> 
> ...


I agree 100%. He thinks it's being mean to do this. NC letter. He believes that we should just forget all about and OW will eventually give up...ignore her.

The reasoning for not telling me about the calls is he felt because didn't respond, no reason. He thinks it's not an issue if he is not contacting her. And the meet up in the parking lot was just that. She saw him and approached him. OW again needed to hear from him he would no longer be seeing her or helping her. For some reason she needed conformation again.

I still feel like there may be something going on. H is with all the time when he's not at work. I want to believe him.


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## TCSRedhead (Oct 17, 2012)

SeenBetterDays said:


> I agree 100%. He thinks it's being mean to do this. NC letter. He believes that we should just forget all about and OW will eventually give up...ignore her.
> 
> The reasoning for not telling me about the calls is he felt because didn't respond, no reason. He thinks it's not an issue if he is not contacting her. And the meet up in the parking lot was just that. She saw him and approached him. OW again needed to hear from him he would no longer be seeing her or helping her. For some reason she needed conformation again.
> 
> I still feel like there may be something going on. H is with all the time when he's not at work. I want to believe him.


This isn't an option - he wants you or he wants her. If he wants you, he does this. Period. 

Anytime after that letter, he needs to tell you about ANY effort she makes to contact him. 

I know you said he's reading the book but it sounds an awful lot like 'I'm just gonna do this for right now so she'll shut up and I can go back to doing whatever I want'. Not a good omen.


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## SeenBetterDays (Mar 4, 2013)

TCSRedhead said:


> This is the WRONG attitude. This 'friend' nearly cost him his marriage. She should not be defended for any reason.
> 
> I'm not trying to harp on you but it's really alarming to see that he's coming to her defense considering what's happened.


Again I agree. I've asked him why he is defending her. He has no response.

I do have a lawyer friend who is more then happy to help me with a restraining order. I believe it may come to that!


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## TCSRedhead (Oct 17, 2012)

SeenBetterDays said:


> Again I agree. I've asked him why he is defending her. He has no response.
> 
> I do have a lawyer friend who is more then happy to help me with a restraining order. I believe it may come to that!


The problem is that HE hasn't stated clearly that she is NOT to contact him in writing. Until that occurs, it's a moot point. He has to be the one to stand up and make it happen.


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## SeenBetterDays (Mar 4, 2013)

pb76no said:


> Seen: I just have one question for you - or maybe for you to ask him. Why hasn't he blocked her number?


As i already posted his phone doesn't allow for individual blocking. But I think I have found a way to do it. I hope it works.

or a new phone is in order.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

For the older phones, you can call the service provider and find out if they can block from their end. I did this some years ago when I needed to.

Also, you are 'asking' him things. The man needs real consequences. Just because he says they are 'friends' and that she will 'give up,' doesn't mean that you have to accept it.

Why not tell him that 'no, she is not a friend.' Why? Because that is a condition of your marriage. He stops insisting that she is a friend. Period. Together you find a way to block her on his phone. Period. If he sees her when he is out and about, he doesn't talk to her. Period.

He only has choices if you let him have them. This isn't tough love. This is you standing up for reasonable boundaries in your marriage.

I think I asked this before, but why in heaven's name should he be OK with you being hurt by this every day? You have the right to stop accepting this freedom that he claims for himself.

She is not a friend. She does not call him or talk to him. He stops hurting you by accepting this. Why wouldn't he agree to these things? What is the point of not agreeing?


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## Busy Accountant (Mar 15, 2013)

So, bottom line, he is still not willing to admit this was an affair? And guess what? He does NOT get the choice about what you say or never say again!!!! I have been in R for 15 months and guess what? There are things that go through my mind over and over again. Things H said to women...and it was't that he loved them. This is way worse and I would suspect is going to bother you for a long time. He better get used to you say it over and over. AND he better get used to him apologizing over and over and over.

And you are not allowed to be MEAN? Excuse me? Sounds like you two are living together again? And how about the D? Makes me think he needs some more attitude adjustment. 

Also, would he be willing to go to MC? Someone needs to fight this battle with you. Is he bullheaded? Doesn't like to be told what to do? Prideful?


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## Busy Accountant (Mar 15, 2013)

"I asked how he felt about her. He continues to tell me the same thing, that he thinks of her as a really good friend. I said to him you, texted her and said you loved her? What does that mean to you? He told me never to say that again.

So I'm not sure how he really feels about her now. A few times I have said something negative about the OW. He say's I need to be nice and not say these things. I need to stay positive."

I'm no good at these quote things.


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## Busy Accountant (Mar 15, 2013)

"I still feel like there may be something going on. H is with all the time when he's not at work. I want to believe him."

Do you mean H is with YOU or HER? Did he refund that money for the project that was supposed to be done in May?

I feel a vent coming on!!!!!!


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## bravenewworld (Mar 24, 2013)

Seen, all of the responsibility to protect your marriage and family should not fall on you. Is there something your husband is actively doing now to stop her unwanted behavior?


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

He says he is ignoring her, but she continues to call and text. For weeks! He continues to call her a 'good' friend'. He refuses to call this an affair, yet he has said he loves her, to her, and they were making plans for the future, or at least she was and he wasn't putting any stop to it, which means he was going along with it, allowing her to plan, agreeing with the plan? He continues to call her a good friend even though she has caused huge problems (and he has allowed her too, even encouraged it, been a full player in this scenario), he cannot bear you to ask him the question of why he said he loves her, he has little or no explanations for you on practically all of it. She still calls and texts.

What evidence do you have that he has actually told her he cannot see her anymore? Has he even said it? Or has he said 'I can't talk to you right now, my wife is not happy, I will be back in touch when it all cools off/I can't talk to you as often as I did'. 

Why is he not highly irritated by someone who is encroaching on his marriage he is 'trying to fix'. Is it because he hasn't actually put a proper stop to it and has no intention to? Why does he still call her a friend...a good friend!...when this relationship has caused huge issues and when he and she have totally disrespected you! 

Are you aware of the jobs he is on during the day and where and when they are? 

All this makes no sense. If she is a bunny boiler, why does he still view her as a good friend? If he has told her NC, why is he not irritated by her frequent calls/texts? 

Have you read the texts she continues to send? 

Has he actually told her to back off? Do you have evidence of him telling her? 

He needs to sort this sh*t out! He is putting her before you!


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## SeenBetterDays (Mar 4, 2013)

I can imagine it to be very frustrating for all of you who have been giving me some very VALUABLE ADVICE(and I really do APPRECIATE it).....to look at my post and the many others you try to help on as, again, frustrating. As an outsider you are able to pick up on things that maybe a NUMB BS overlooks or doesn't see or try's to smooth over. I can tell you that this EA has exhausted me. It's taken something from me that I feel I can never retrieve. Be it my trust in my H or whatever it seems to have stripped that from me.

I know this is an impossibility....but I just wish those that think to have an Affair think of what it does to your SO.I know that this is not how these things work, but I can wish.


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## Busy Accountant (Mar 15, 2013)

Seen - Are you or are you not currently living with H?


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## SeenBetterDays (Mar 4, 2013)

Busy Accountant said:


> Seen - Are you or are you not currently living with H?


I am currently living again with H.


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## SeenBetterDays (Mar 4, 2013)

Remains said:


> He says he is ignoring her, but she continues to call and text. For weeks! He continues to call her a 'good' friend'. He refuses to call this an affair, yet he has said he loves her, to her, and they were making plans for the future, or at least she was and he wasn't putting any stop to it, which means he was going along with it, allowing her to plan, agreeing with the plan? He continues to call her a good friend even though she has caused huge problems (and he has allowed her too, even encouraged it, been a full player in this scenario), he cannot bear you to ask him the question of why he said he loves her, he has little or no explanations for you on practically all of it. She still calls and texts.
> 
> What evidence do you have that he has actually told her he cannot see her anymore? Has he even said it? Or has he said 'I can't talk to you right now, my wife is not happy, I will be back in touch when it all cools off/I can't talk to you as often as I did'.
> 
> ...


What evidence do I have that he has told her he will not be seeing her anymore?

The only evidence I have is H's word and the fact he is at home all the time now. He goes to his full time job,then home. He has asked me to help him on 2 of his jobs,which I did.

OW text have not been opened. I have been getting to them first then I delete them.  Most of OW text lately are of the inquiry type. Are you still alive? or call me.

H seems to be trying, but then again , what do I REALLY know!...?..!


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## TCSRedhead (Oct 17, 2012)

The concern is that he's unwilling to acknowledge what he's done to destroy your marriage, unwilling to acknowledge that she's not a friend and doesn't seem to be making the efforts needed to give you some peace of mind and security.

Reconciliation cannot work if it's one sided. 

Clearly this woman isn't going to give up UNTIL he clearly states (with you present) that she MUST leave him alone and never contact him again. 

Why are you afraid of insisting he do so?


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## Busy Accountant (Mar 15, 2013)

Seen

I may be stating the obvious here, but clearly you and H are at an impasse. It sounds as if he has turned his back on OW..by the content of her messages. Either that, or the two of them are REALLY smart by trying to throw you off track with them. My sense is that OW is a bit psycho and even if H never told her NC, you would think she would get the message and back off by his lack of contact. I know this is all very painful, but OW's actions may cement her final demise with your H.

As many have stated here, this issue is not something where you and H can agree to disagree, but it seems like that is what he's trying to do. I think your continued questions (which are very justified) are fueled by his lack of accountability to and compassion for you. Take your eyes off OW for a minute. Is there something in your relationship with H or inside H himself that would prevent him from taking the next step? Is he controlling? Hard to admit mistakes? Judgmental? Bull headed? For some reason, H seems to not want to submit to you or your needs. Sounds like he's willing to change his ways, but not his heart. What's up with that?


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## badbane (Jun 9, 2012)

Seen do you want this affair to End? if so then do something about it. In all of the threads i have read none of them successfully ended the affair with the half-hearted tactics you are using. This is an all or nothing deal. He thinks that he can sweep this under a rug. Then once everything is quiet he can resume things as they were. This is definitely a EA and almost definitely a PA. The OW is not the problem your H is. Your H is the proximate cause and he has the be the one to end this. You on the other hand need to stop playing this game with him. You shouldn't be asking him for a NC letter. You should be packing your bags and leaving UNTIL he writes the NC letter. 
If he says "we were just friends." 
Tell him you aren't stupid and if he tries to tell you that again you are gone. You have to stop giving him the ability to lie and manipulate. You should be telling his friends and your family. 

You are headed down the road of a rugsweeper. You are still allowing yourself to be manipulated and are not treating him like a cheating, backstabbing, liar. And he is those things because in his head there is no sanity. He is living in a fog where this OW is his FRIEND. And they do everything together and they love each other. And when they are not together he is a good husband and he loves you but not in the same way he loves the OW. The OW is his best friend and soul mate. He feels this way because of the dopamine rush he gets from chasing this woman. The rush he gets from pushing himself to the limits of his vows and beyond. The rush he gets from the attention she gives him. He is literally addicted to this woman and unless you give him some reality he will stay hooked on this woman. 

You are playing with someone who is already on fire. Ignoring the problem will only get you burned. So please look up the healing heart:180 and please adopt the affair busting techniques in that. Otherwise you need to be prepared to be hurt all over again.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

I have had the feeling from the beginning of your thread, SBD, that your H has been drawn inexorably into an A by a domineerig, b*llsy woman who has zero respect for his marriage. He is weak and has been flattered by her attentions & wound up in an A (I, too, would definitely not rule out a PA). He has strong feelings for her but doesn't want to lose you, so he hedges his bets. She's such a strong character that she overwhelms him and he won't really tell her 'no.'

And you haven't made it really clear to him that he has to completely break off everything with her if he wants you to consider staying with him. As long as you show weakness like this, a weak man like him will not do what has to be done. He will hem and haw and tut-tut about hurting her feelings or her being a 'friend.' 

This is where the rubber meets the road. It's very hard. We all know that. We know that it is not black and white. We also know that a clear insistence on NC is required. He renounces her as a friend (what kind of 'friend' does what she did to your marriage?) and replaces his phone with a phone with a new number. She is told in no uncertain terms that she is not welcome anywhere near either one of you, in person or on any phone, computer, or planet.

You really need to be tough to have a chance to recover at all from what he has been putting you through. You deserve some peace from this. You've earned some peace. Either he completely commit to NC to give you that or you give up the game, in my opinion.


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## SeenBetterDays (Mar 4, 2013)

alte Dame said:


> I have had the feeling from the beginning of your thread, SBD, that your H has been drawn inexorably into an A by a domineerig, b*llsy woman who has zero respect for his marriage. He is weak and has been flattered by her attentions & wound up in an A (I, too, would definitely not rule out a PA). He has strong feelings for her but doesn't want to lose you, so he hedges his bets. She's such a strong character that she overwhelms him and he won't really tell her 'no.'
> 
> And you haven't made it really clear to him that he has to completely break off everything with her if he wants you to consider staying with him. As long as you show weakness like this, a weak man like him will not do what has to be done. He will hem and haw and tut-tut about hurting her feelings or her being a 'friend.'
> 
> ...


Your first paragraph hits the nail on the head. He has said, she is an interrogator! This is one reason I think I should step in.

So I don't understand how she could be anything to him. Friend or otherwise.

I am still in contact with the lawyer I saw concerning D. In fact the lawyer called last week to see how things were progressing. H knows this.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> I have had the feeling from the beginning of your thread, SBD, that your H has been drawn inexorably into an A by a domineerig, b*llsy woman who has zero respect for his marriage. He is weak and has been flattered by her attentions & wound up in an A (I, too, would definitely not rule out a PA). He has strong feelings for her but doesn't want to lose you, so he hedges his bets. She's such a strong character that she overwhelms him and he won't really tell her 'no.'
> 
> And you haven't made it really clear to him that he has to completely break off everything with her if he wants you to consider staying with him. As long as you show weakness like this, a weak man like him will not do what has to be done. He will hem and haw and tut-tut about hurting her feelings or her being a 'friend.'
> 
> ...


I wanted to say something like this next, but it has been said....no doubt far more eloquently. So I am quoting again for the repetition of a good post! 

Your husband avoids confrontation, he has been swept along by OW, to the detriment of his marriage, his life, and he cannot and has not said 'no'. 

I think you need to take absolute control over this. Forget the lawyer (for the moment) because he will avoid confrontation with you, with her, with you and the lawyer, etc. He will avoid all until it hits him and then he will deal with it in the least confrontational way possible. He will deal with ONLY what happens TO HIM. He will not make what he wants happen! 

All hypothesis, but this is what I am getting from your posts and your description of him. 

You basically need to take charge and make happen what needs to happen. And then you will get what you want. He will follow your lead. I think right now he needs to he treated like a child, and directed to do the right thing. I imagine that is probably what he wants. Tough love and complete direction. 

Make him write out what you want him to say, what he should say (he sure as hell doesn't know what he *should* be saying, he is conflicted? Or just a jelly fish?) and he needs to call her and tell her, while you are there with him. He calls in your presence. I think this is a must. An absolute necessity. He won't like it, but once it is done I bet he will feel immense relief. (I bet he either hasn't done it or did it so weakly and pathetically that she didn't even know what the message was).

He MUST NOT say you are present!

And he needs to know what he must say to whatever reply she has, i.e. I have said my piece and that is what I stand by. I have nothing more to say to you. (Probably best short and sweet, but he could go on just to hit the point home: I love my wife, not you. I want nothing more to do with you, our 'friendship/relationship' has caused damage to my relationship which I cherish. I want my marriage far more than our friendship/relationship'. Or something to that effect. Something that makes her realise she has no hold over him in comparison to you, she is worthless in comparison to you, and give her no credit for being important in his life.) 

I guess it needs to be something that he is able to say, and that you are happy with also. 

As for what next, plenty I guess. But I feel you need to get your big boy boots on and direct him completely.

P.s. when I asked about the jobs he was on and did you know he was where he said he was, I had the impression he did jobs in people's houses all day, I didn't realise he had a full time job and that this was a sideline.


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## SeenBetterDays (Mar 4, 2013)

How does one successfully do the 180? What are some of the reason people fail at it?

I thought things were doing well. 

We were together all the time, following the plan I thought we both agreed on. But then....

I found him talking to OW on the phone 5 days ago. Seems he was been taking care of her dogs while she was away.

I feel foolish!!!!! Didn't suspect it at all!!!

Left again!!!!!!!!!!!!! I don't think I will return this time 
Trying the 180. 

Need help with it.


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## Busy Accountant (Mar 15, 2013)

H clearly doesn't respect you. He has again chosen OW's needs over yours.

File, with no warning.

If he wants to R, he needs to come to you and fix it. Otherwise he can lie with the dog he has chosen.


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## SeenBetterDays (Mar 4, 2013)

Busy Accountant said:


> H clearly doesn't respect you. He has again chosen OW's needs over yours.
> 
> File, with no warning.
> 
> If he wants to R, he needs to come to you and fix it. Otherwise he can lie with the dog he has chosen.


I did it!

I filed this morning 8:30 am.

I see no other way......

Thank you all for the support.
I don't think I would have done it on my own if I didn't have the
information and advice from all of you on TAM.

Regards


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## Busy Accountant (Mar 15, 2013)

Seen

Please keep in touch.

I was going to post further but haven't been able to take time from work. What I wanted to share was that I was only a few weeks away from filing myself when H turned around. Having said that, I was very at peace with the path I was about to take. I was very hurt, but knew I was about to do the right thing. The reason was because I felt I had done everything in my power to save the marriage and my efforts didn't work.

FWIW, I feel you have too Seen. You have tried your best. Whatever course your marriage takes now is completely on H's shoulders. He did what he did for OW with a clear understanding of boundaries from you, and from other sources (NJF). He has no excuses left.

Peace to you Seen.


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## Busy Accountant (Mar 15, 2013)

Seen, how are you doing?


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## SeenBetterDays (Mar 4, 2013)

Busy Accountant said:


> Seen, how are you doing?


I'm slowly finding my own.

It's been a month since I struck out on my own and filed for D.

H was extremely shocked at that, and of course wanted to R.

We are in R but not sure if it's a good idea to do this while living in different spaces? It's good for doing the 180....it leaves me wondering what he is really doing on his time off though or if he is really following most of the boundaries we set. He's trying but has confessed talking to OW 3 times on the phone.He claims he answered by accident!!! He is living with our youngest son,who tells me that H is usually home with him after work. They've found a new bond between them and that I'm thankful for. 

I to have found my renewed passion for the arts and started painting again with thoughts in selling my pieces.

We are taking it slow and we started dating.

Will it work? I don't know.....

Thank you for checking in on me.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

The best of luck. I hope he develops the strength to figure it out. I really hope that for you.


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## Busy Accountant (Mar 15, 2013)

Seen

I am glad that you are finding yourself in all of this.

Perhaps the bond that H is making with your son will open his eyes as to what he is risking by continuing contact with POSOW. Sounds like he has a long way to go. Don't settle for anything less than 100% from your H if you decide to re-enter his life.

I guess the question for you is whether your 180 is for yourself or if it's for your marriage. I say do it for yourself.

As to the 'accidental" contact he has had with OW....really now? Did he "accidentally" walk her dog too? I HATE when that happens!

Please keep in touch...thinking of you.


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