# Wife Avoiding Sex, Any Ideas Why?



## CupOJoe (Sep 28, 2011)

I know this topic has been discussed a lot here already, but I wanted to get a point of view for my specific circumstances. Basically, my wife has seemingly lost all interest in sex and its getting to a point where I can't take it anymore. Sorry for the length and the level of detail, but I felt everything was important to clarify. I don't think I broke the forum section rules and apologize to anyone who may feel otherwise. Here is our story...

We are both in our late 20s (I'm 2 years older) and we've been married for 3 years. Before that we dated for 5 years. In our first few years of dating we had a great sex life. We also regularly talked about getting married - she wanted marriage after our 3rd year of dating, but I wasn't ready and felt we were still too young and immature at that point. I told her "in a couple years" and she begrudgingly accepted, but I followed through with my promise. At some point during the 3rd or forth year of dating we had a few pregnancy scares - we always used protection but her period was late a few times which caused her to think the condom broke. It was always negative, but this scared her enough since she didn't want kids before marriage and she asked if we could hold off on having sex anymore until we were married. She said we could do "everything else" (use your imagination). I loved her and knew we would get married so I begrudgingly accepted. She was happy and regularly told me that she appreciated my support and once we were married we would have sex anywhere and everywhere, often describing it in detail, which was great to hear. 

She never really followed through with that promise though once we got married. We would have sex once or twice a week at first, it was good, but nothing ever really crazy. Over the course of the next couple years the frequency would decline as well as her interest, to the point where she would never be the one to initiate. Our frequency has gone down to once every month or 2, and it has come to the point where even when I initiate she resists. Sometimes she will quickly tell me to lie back and she'll grab some lotion and use her hand to basically satisfy me so i would back off. Other times when I push enough and finally get her to have sex, she lies there and does nothing. I constantly ask her what she would like and communicate during sex - I'm the kind of guy that gets turned on by pleasing her as much as possible in bed instead of just focusing on myself. She just tells me to keep doing what I'm doing and resists if I try anything else. She doesn't get very wet (this didn't used to be a problem), but avoids much kissing and rushes me through foreplay which makes me think she wants to get everything over with as soon as possible. If I try to change positions, she says it is uncomfortable (we used to try tons of positions). One night as she denied foreplay, I immediately went down on her intensely. Within a matter of seconds she was soaking wet and after a few minutes I penetrated and made sure she came before I finished. I thought this would light a fire under her, but after that night the same pattern of avoidance and disinterest continued. On different occasions I have casually asked her if anything was wrong and she blames the birth-control pill, which she started taking after we got married. She says she read that it lowers sexual desire. I am not denying that is true or minimizing that fact, but I feel that at some point you need to take responsibility for yourself and not rely on a convenient excuse. I have tried romancing her and trying to make her feel sexy and also have tried to spice things up with videos, toys, games, hotel rooms, and many other ideas, but nothing works. I have given up trying. As of this writing it has been almost 3 months since we last had sex. I don't even remember the last time we made out.

On a daily basis my wife and I get along great and have a lot of fun together. We share a lot of common interests, have a large group of mutual friends and an active social life, take trips together, etc. Our friends refer to us as "the perfect couple". We kiss goodbye everyday when going to work and say "I love you" most days. We joke and laugh. Of course we have normal disagreements and arguments every now and then, but nothing too major. Our biggest point of contention is kids. She wants them now, I want to wait a couple years to further my career and put us in a better financial position. Also, I want to enjoy the freedom we have to travel and pursue activities that we won't have as much time for once we have kids. I know this bothers her very much but I have already compromised down a few years on when I originally wanted kids. I don't know if this is her way of making me "pay" for that.

I have wondered before if it was something about me or something I did. I may not be Brad Pitt, but I am an active person that keeps in good shape and grooms regularly. I get approached at bars every now and then by interested women and each time tell them thanks but I am married (I wear my ring wherever I go). My point is that I haven't "let myself go". I treat my wife very well. Every day I ask her how her day was. I compliment her regularly, get her flowers, give her space, listen to her problems. I don't pressure her about sex and respect when she's tired or in an unpleasant mood. I don't ask her to cook for me everyday since we both work full time and I would rather maximize and enjoy our leisure time together. We share cleaning duties and chores and I usually do the larger share. I'm not trying to sound arrogant, but I think I have been a great husband. I feel that she takes this for granted and maybe because of that I have just been an enabler. For example, now she often leaves some obvious cleaning tasks for me to do even though she was able to do it well before I had a chance. I don't know if the lack of sex is all a part of a larger pattern. I am confident there is no other man in the picture as well. Overall I feel like our relationship has devolved from husband/wife to maybe a step above friends/roommates.

So if you haven't gotten bored and are still reading, is there anything you see that I'm missing? Can anyone think of any reason why my wife just decided to start avoiding sex altogether? Any articles/posts I've read mostly point to reasons that don't seem to apply to our case. I think the details I provided should answer the more common questions, but feel free to ask any others. I know I have to sit her down and have a serious talk with her, not just bring it up casually, but how should I bring it up and approach it? Like I said, we have an generally good daily relationship so I don't want her to feel attacked out of nowhere (she gets defensive very easily). Advice on how to structure the conversation would be very helpful as well. I don't want to be overly accusatory but at the same time I want to be firm and let her know that this is affecting our lives and marriage and our future together. My main reason for posting this is to be as informed and prepared as possible before talking seriously with her. I just want to address this before my growing resentment takes over because it's already starting to get to that point. If this is how it is after only 3 years of marriage with no kids, I am terrified of what the rest of our lives will turn into. Any help/ideas/advice are greatly appreciated.


----------



## Scannerguard (Jan 26, 2010)

Well, there are dozens of angles you can take but she will probably react defensively to any angle.

I am not sure why when the ring goes on, the clothes don't come off with women but this is such a typical dysfunction, I am not sure what the well-researched answer is.

BTW, you described a very typical decline in affection and sex that happens in a lot of new marriages. It could be as simple as she married you because she thought she should and then discovered she doesn't love you.

While you get practical answers to your question from others. . .I would hope a parallel question could be answered (if you don't mind me joining in unison with you):

When there is a lack of sex in a marriage from one partner or the other, what is the other spouses obligation(s)? How much diagnosis and/or treatment are they morally obligated to seek before the marriage just becomes invalid in the laws, society, and the church's eyes?

I would think this. . .what if CupOJoe wanted kids right now? Is he obligated to embark on a 24 month mission to figure out the sexual dysfunction? Then with the chance it may end with "I dunno. Beats me why she's not horny?" (Because as much as therapists and doctors may wax on as to why they know, they don't.)

Then embark on a divorce, dating and then having finally having kids?

It's an honest question in my head I have thought as I hear story after story on this.

CupOJoe - thanks in advance for allowing me to tag along with your dilemma and there are very good helpers at this forum and you should be able to get some direction.


----------



## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

A good friend of mine is also wanting kids.. not her husband. Sex became a chance to get pregnant, it can sometimes put a spin on it. Same thing when she did not want kids... it can be a mental association. She may be very hurt about your choice to not have kids right now. Yup, I would say she is resentful about it, and not wanting to be intimate with you because of it. And it's growing, if she is leaving you cleaning tasks to do, and blaming the birth control as well (you are the reason she has to take it... you dont' want kids.. so now she has no sex drive).

You should probably resolve the issue. And let her know what your expectations are. Once a month? Once a week? And tell her why you expect intimacy. What do you get out of it? how does it make you feel?


----------



## toolate (Sep 22, 2009)

Wow, you sound like a catch With that description, I dont know why any woman would not want to have sex with you... Ehhem, there's a bit of sarcasm in there on purpose bc sometimes we think we are Mr or Mrs wonderful when in fact things we do could be quite hurtful to our spouses. A red flag to me, as a woman, would be the fact that she is ready for things before you are. It may seem small to you because you reached an "agreement" on an "earlier" date to have children (earlier, only to you... she is still waiting). AND, its not the first time on a huge decision you made her wait. You can have a great relationship around these 2 things, but these 2 things could eat away at her opinion of how you view her and the relationship. This can breed resentment and resentment can turn into sex issue (cant any issue outside the bedroom, effect the bedroom?)

She may feel controlled by your timeline alone. 

Im not trying to tell you to go start a family if you arent ready. I am trying to say that you may want to further evaluate if you call the shots on things as a rule. As she gets older, that wont fly anymore as she could become more assertive about her needs... especially if they have been second best from early in your relationship.

Bottom line: you may be a great guy, the whole package, but from your brief description I saw those 2 red flags that you brushed off with your discussions about waiting. Women want to feel like they are a priority to their man, and that he wants what she wants too. She is sitting in the corner counting the seconds on her biological clock while you want to play. Soon she wont want to play anymore if something isnt done.


----------



## CupOJoe (Sep 28, 2011)

Scannerguard, no problem, I don't mind at all joining in unison on this and am interested in hearing responses to your questions as well.

deejov, I actually never asked her to take birth control. She herself didn't want kids right away when we got married and decided to take it completely on her own. She's talked about stopping the pill to "get it out of her system" for when we actually do try for kids and I haven't resisted that either, although I would want to be more careful at that point to avoid accidents.

toolate, I have considered your points before and they are valid. Consider though that I wouldn't have included those details if I was "brushing them off". But if I'm not mistaken, marriage is about compromises. I would hardly call what I'm doing "making her wait while I play". You constantly refer to me "making her wait" and "my timeline", but this "our timeline" after having serious discussions and deciding our future TOGETHER. Do you think I should always make major decisions based on "her timeline" alone? Does her biological clock mean I have no right to ask for compromise on both ends while being open with her about my reasons? If you think I'm just trying to build myself here as Mr Wonderful you are entitled to that, but every word I wrote is 100% true. I can only write from my point of view even if it may not be the same as hers.


----------



## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

I think toolate could be right. Your wife could already be toting around a lot of resentment regarding the two incidents that were pointed out. It's too bad people get to that point, but in reality that happens.

1 - Does your wife resent the fact that you did not show enough concern/contemplate marriage when you had the pregnancy 'scares' prior to marriage?

2 - Is your wife resenting the fact that you are still on the fence about having kids? Seems to me that she may be - because the sure-fire way to have kids is to have sex - well, sans birth control.

Suggestions:

1 - Hormonal birth control can be a libido killer. Get her off of it. Find a different method to use.

2 - Have a frank discussion about needs. Sexual intimacy is a need within marriage. Let her know what your needs are and find out what her needs are. There was a lot of talk in your post about you and your perceptions of things, but what are hers?

3 - Don't have kids until this is resolved. Let her know that this is an issue that you both need to resolve and it's not right to bring a child in to the midst of it.

4 - What are the ways that you are initiating with her? Are you flirting throughout the day? The dryness issue points to a lack of desire/lack of arousal on her part that could be alleviated with more foreplay - and not just foreplay at the moment of sex - but foreplay throughout the day.

God Bless.


----------



## LovesHerMan (Jul 28, 2011)

You sound like a wonderful husband, so I am going to make some assumptions about your wife from the way you have described her. She sounds like someone with rigid thinking, someone who has a schedule in her head of when she should have been married, and when she should have children. Because you did not meet this schedule, her resentment has grown to where she no longer wants to have sex with you. From your post, she is punishing you for something, and you have to get to the bottom of this.

When you have the serious talk, ask her if she resents delaying having children. Can you push up your date a bit as a compromise? Tell her that you connect to her emotionally through sex, and you miss that closeness. Have her read this website about men's sexuality:

Sex Is an Emotional Need - Focus on the Family

Keep her talking by putting the focus on how her lack of desire makes you feel, and do not make her defensive by blaming her. Ask for her ideas about how you can solve this problem together.


----------



## arrrgman (Mar 10, 2011)

Hey, CupOJoe,

First, unfortunately I can relate. Your situation is remarkably similar to mine: married only four years, sex life essentially dead in the water (happens maybe once every 4-5 months, and she is clearly not into it even then), and I have tried hard to be a good husband and not take her for granted (I still complement her, try to do little things for her, try to be sweet, try to flirt, all to no avail). And I am at a frustration point where I am becoming resentful, bitter, and depressed. I have no idea why she has no interest in sex what-so-ever. My wife is very defensive of anything as it stands, so talking to her about it has been an epic fail as well. I don't understand, and don't know what to do. :-( One notable difference is we do already have two kids: a 10 yr old that is technically hers from a prior marriage (but I regard as being mine), and a 3 yr old that is ours.

As for your specific situation, this may or may not be the central issue, but just recently the marriage of one of my wife's friends collapsed, and while there were evidently a lot of problems in that marriage, a big one was she wanted another child and he didn't. Unfortunately, the desire for kids can be a complicated issue. It seems that when a woman hits that stage where she desires children, that desire can become an all-consuming biological and emotional urge (went through that with my own wife). Sure, marriage is about compromise, and having a child before you feel ready can be stressful (little truth: no one is ever really ready), alas this is an area in which logic and reason do not factor into her thinking. No amount of negotiating, reassuring, or compromising can fill that void she is feeling.

Think of it from this perspective: a woman's desire for a child is like a man's desire for sex. If she were to say "just another year or two, and then we can have sex again", is that going to make you feel any better? The idea of two years before you can have sex again to you is as painful and horrifying as the idea of two years before she can have a child is to her.

I know that doesn't provide a solution, but maybe it will help you understand what she might be feeling. The bad news is "she want's kids, he doesn't" is a point where a lot of marriages crack and fail, because that is a very big deal, and either party can end up feeling resentful if the other person's preference is forced upon them.

On the other hand, there is always the chance this isn't about kids at all, and something else is wrong that she isn't telling you, but based on the information provided, that does seem the most likely culprit.


----------



## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

Scannerguard said:


> Well, there are dozens of angles you can take but she will probably react defensively to any angle.
> 
> I am not sure why when the ring goes on, the clothes don't come off with women but this is such a typical dysfunction, I am not sure what the well-researched answer is.
> 
> BTW, you described a very typical decline in affection and sex that happens in a lot of new marriages. It could be as simple as she married you because she thought she should and then discovered she doesn't love you.


I think becoming disillusioned with the reality of marriage, often due to selfishness and immaturity, can be a big culprit as to why there's a decline in affection and sex after the first few years. This happens to both spouses as they realize that neither their spouse, nor the marriage itself, quite meets up to their expectations. Here's a good faith-based series about this: http://www.focusonthefamily.com/marriage/the_early_years/when_expectations_meet_reality.aspx

As a woman, I can vouch that there is more expectation on the ramp-up to getting married and the ceremony itself, with very little preparation on what it actually means to be married and how difficult it can be afterward.



Scannerguard said:


> While you get practical answers to your question from others. . .I would hope a parallel question could be answered (if you don't mind me joining in unison with you):
> 
> When there is a lack of sex in a marriage from one partner or the other, what is the other spouses obligation(s)? How much diagnosis and/or treatment are they morally obligated to seek before the marriage just becomes invalid in the laws, society, and the church's eyes?


This will depend a lot on your belief system. If you believe in what the Bible states, then dissolving the marriage is not acceptable unless there's infidelity, abuse, or an unbeliever wants out if married to a believer. But, obviously, people are going to have to set boundaries of their own based upon their beliefs - whether to keep trying or not based upon those beliefs and circumstances. No one can tell another "when" the time is right. It is something they will have to determine themself.



Scannerguard said:


> I would think this. . .what if CupOJoe wanted kids right now? Is he obligated to embark on a 24 month mission to figure out the sexual dysfunction? Then with the chance it may end with "I dunno. Beats me why she's not horny?" (Because as much as therapists and doctors may wax on as to why they know, they don't.)
> 
> Then embark on a divorce, dating and then having finally having kids?
> 
> ...


If CupOJoe really wants kids, I have a feeling that he's likely got a very willing candidate in his own wife, and it would likely behoove him to look at himself and his marriage and determine what his contribution is to its current condition. He can improve those things. He can encourage his wife to do the same thing in regards to what her contribution is to its current condition.

And yes, as a spouse you are obligated to work for the marriage - to try your best at providing for the needs of your spouse. Each spouse has this obligation - it's just convincing some people that the commitment they made in that church is really not just all hot air - that is the difficult part.


----------



## CupOJoe (Sep 28, 2011)

Enchantment, thank you for your suggestions, I will keep them in mind. To answer your questions:



> 1 - Does your wife resent the fact that you did not show enough concern/contemplate marriage when you had the pregnancy 'scares' prior to marriage?


I don't think so. While we had the pregnancy 'scares' I tried my best to assure my wife that we would get married whether or not the tests were positive. 



> 2 - Is your wife resenting the fact that you are still on the fence about having kids? Seems to me that she may be - because the sure-fire way to have kids is to have sex - well, sans birth control.


I am not on the fence about having kids. I definitely want them, I just want to wait a couple years before having them. Either way, I don't disagree with the fact that she resents this.



> 4 - What are the ways that you are initiating with her? Are you flirting throughout the day?


I believe that on most days I flirt with her throughout the day. I hug her, kiss her neck, tell her her hair smells good (it really does!). As for initiating, In general I usually begin by kissing her shoulder or neck along with some pillow talk, and slowly and softely rubbing my hand over her arms/legs/shoulder/neck, then proceeding toward kissing and putting my arms around her and caressing her back. After some time, I kiss her nipples and gently massage her vagina/clitoris. This isn't an in-stone plan and I try to mix it up, but that is a general description. If you think there is something I should change/add either with the flirting or initiating/foreplay, I'm open to suggestions.

lovesherman, thank you for suggestions as well, they will help me shape my conversation with my wife. I also think your assumptions are correct. To answer your question:



> Can you push up your date a bit as a compromise?


I have already compromised by a few years on this, and I feel that if I push up my date even more it will have a reverse effect and I will start to resent her for making me have kids before I was ready.

arrrgman - Thank you, the perspective definitely helps. I DO want kids, just not on my wife's personal schedule and have been willing to compromise, but only so far. I feel that asking for ANY compromise on her part has created resentment towards me.


----------



## Enginerd (May 24, 2011)

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Zzyzx (Aug 24, 2011)

CupOJoe said:


> Enchantment, thank you for your suggestions, I will keep them in mind. To answer your questions:
> 
> I am not on the fence about having kids. I definitely want them, I just want to wait a couple years before having them. Either way, I don't disagree with the fact that she resents this.


Let's rephrase that: you *don't* want them. Your words are your words as you have offered them, but what she's hearing from you is the rephrasing I just gave here. Not fair, I know, but there it is.




CupOJoe said:


> lovesherman, thank you for suggestions as well, they will help me shape my conversation with my wife. I also think your assumptions are correct. To answer your question:
> 
> I have already compromised by a few years on this, and I feel that if I push up my date even more it will have a reverse effect and I will start to resent her for making me have kids before I was ready.
> 
> arrrgman - Thank you, the perspective definitely helps. I DO want kids, just not on my wife's personal schedule and have been willing to compromise, but only so far. I feel that asking for ANY compromise on her part has created resentment towards me.


Gonna offer you that rephrase again the way the wife's hearing it: you *don't* want kids. I don't care how you phrase it, that's what she is hearing from you.

Her biological drive to have kids being met by "not now" is making her develop very bad feelings toward you which are overriding your biological need for sex. She's displaying contempt for you by refusing you sex because you won't "man up" in her eyes and be a father now.

Regarding compromise, you have already asked her for big time compromises, first by making her wait years for marriage, then by making her wait again for years to have children. No wonder she doesn't feel like more compromise! Do you get that? I think not! You're being very selfish if you don't get that you've already made her compromise a lot to begin with and yet you are still demanding more compromise. She will soon feel she has wasted her best childbearing years on you. Heck I would not be surprised if she already feels that way.

I am not a counselor, but I would strongly suggest that you sh!t or get off the pot. In other words, be a father or leave the marriage while she is young enough to get another man to give her babies. Don't just sit there and fart for our entertainment: you'll only succeed in earning more of her contempt.

Now part of the deal, of course, is to let her know that in return for satisfying her need to have babies, you expect your need for sex to be satisfied more often. But that may fail down the road as the precedent has been set by which she can manipulate you into her favored outcomes by withholding sex. Frankly my good friend, I wish you well, but I am not optimistic considering your possible resentment over "her schedule". Which you've already pushed back on for years now.

By the way, what's your schedule?


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

CupOJoe,
Now let me give you the man's perspective on this. 
1. Be VERY careful before you decide to have children. Your W promised you that when you did what she wanted (got married) she would provide you a great sex life. When she got what she wanted, suddenly your needs got dropped to the bottom of the queue. 
2. You have LOTS of time left to have kids. The idea that if you don't do what she wants, she gets to be "resentful" and ignore your needs is very scary. Trust me if your W came on here and posted that she pressured you to have kids before you were ready and now you were being unloving because you were "resentful", everyone would say it was your fault. They would say you shouldn't have done something if you were going to hold it against her. What that means is simply this. You are not entitled to your preferences regarding the timing of children.
3. I DO think the birth control may be killing her desire. I ALSO think if she really loved you SHE would be trying to solve that problem. Thing is, I don't think she sees it as much of a problem. And THAT is a HUGE red flag. She knows sex is a big deal to you. Remember the promise that marriage would equal lots of sex. This is a lack of concern about your happiness. 

And that brings us to the last and biggest issue. You. At your age you likely want sex at least daily. The fact that you are not being very blunt about YOUR needs is a problem. You are one child away from being stuck long term in what could easily become a sexless marriage.

Go read the man up posts in the mens club. 












CupOJoe said:


> Enchantment, thank you for your suggestions, I will keep them in mind. To answer your questions:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Enginerd (May 24, 2011)

Enginerd said:


> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm guessing she's not into because she's lost respect for you. If your writing style is
an indication of how you communicate and act around your wife then you may need
man up a bit. Less words and more masculine actions. You can talk your head off but 
ultimately it's your actions that will make desire you. Don't be mean but try acting disinterested
for a couple of weeks and watch what happens
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## arrrgman (Mar 10, 2011)

In response to what Zzyzx wrote, allow me to say having children is NOT a "sh!t or get off the pot" situation. Having kids is the largest life-changing event you can have, short of a diagnosis of a fatal condition with weeks left to live. NOTHING in your life will ever be the same again. Implying you are obligated to have kids when you don't feel ready is only going to lead to more resentment. That said Zzyzx is correct in what your wife most likely hears is you don't want kids. Once that bio-clock kicks in and a woman wants kids, to her, there are only two types of responses: enthusiastic, and rejection. 

It is important here to understand that isn't your fault...nor is it hers. It's one of those "men/mars, women/Venus" scenarios, where men and women are just wired differently, and in some scenarios there is no winner. 

I will throw out there that it is worth noting that waiting for you to feel ready will never happen. You (and most men) will never "feel" ready. The question is actually are you mature enough yet to handle the epic responsibility.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## loveiswhereiamnot (Jul 8, 2011)

Read Intimacy and Desire. Every marriage/LTR has a high desire partner and a low desire partner. How the two people deal with that causes the relationship to grow and deepen or shatter into hurt people feeling rejected and unloved too much of the time.

You definitely want to solve this for both of you before you have kids. Once they are in the picture, especially the first year after birth, sex life becomes even less. She needs to know how important this is to you, it's a deal-breaker at the frequency you are at, barring any medical condition.

The high desire partner always thinks it's easy to fix - just mentally readjust and make it so, it's a matter of will, of trying, like exercising every day. It's not like that. It's probably not about showing her more attention or helping out around the house or flirting. Just read the book, it's too complicated to explain in a post, and it's highly individual.


----------



## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Sounds like you've been had. Sorry. Before you were married, she avoided actual intercourse but promised "everything else". She promised that after she got a ring, you would get abundant full intercourse. That didn't happen and it appears that she would prefer to grab a bottle of lotion and toss you a bare minimum crumb to get you to hush. I expect that won't last long, either. You are, presumably the same person before and after marriage vows. You probably look, smell, and perform pretty much the same. Shotguns at wedding ceremonies are frowned upon, so she used a verbal promise of limitless sex to get you there. 
Whenever people say one thing but do another, ALWAYS believe their actions. A little late, I know, but the advise will come in handy frequently.


----------



## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Scannerguard said:


> Well, there are dozens of angles you can take but she will probably react defensively to any angle.
> 
> I am not sure why when the ring goes on, the clothes don't come off with women but this is such a typical dysfunction, I am not sure what the well-researched answer is.
> 
> ...


Common error in thinking and a harbinger of many problem in relationships in my opinion. I challenge this sad but common clothes thing. It seems so contemptuous of women that i wonder that you bother if you feel so disconnected. 

OP You may not like what i am going to say but I think it may help you. The men will light into me but what the hell. Please don't be insulted, my intension is not to hurt but to present something different so taking it for that. What you are doing is common and if you read enough of the posts on TAM, it seems to rarely work.

It's is not my idea but comes from a book that I read "why can't I get through to you" by Terrence Real. I sought the book out because I wanted to find out about the intractable problem of the disconnect in marriages. 

It is not about sex - you made two unilateral decisions and she capitulated easily. It may be as simple and at the same time as complicated as that. She likely gets that her feelings mean little in this relationship. It may appear that the future will require her to go along with what you need and want and she has given up try to get you to meet her needs. If that is the case, isn't it sad, can you feel for this woman you love? Step into her shoes for a moment. 

Your assumption that her withdrawal of sex is to punish you may be way off the mark. It may mean that you look at the relationship as win - lose. You can't let her win because it would mean you will lose. If her withdrawal is a sign of her unhappiness in the marriage, lecturing her on what you expect is wrong on many levels. You expect so much don't you think? Is winning more important than your marriage?. 

If she is disconnected from you, giving her an ultimatum or else will push her further away. Even if I am dead wrong, ultimatum don't work anyway. She will resist as well she should, she can at least control that part of her life. She knows all too well that men talk with their feet - do this or that or I will leave.

Her desire to be a mother is a basic female desire it comes on very strongly as a woman nears 30. It is like your need for sex, if you can so easily dismiss that why is it so difficult for you to see how she dismisses your needs? The fact that she capitulated on this basic need so easily is rather sad. That is another female trait, to give in instead of insisting to be heard. 

She may have feared you would think she was trying to control you or that you would think she was a nag. That is a common reaction. No woman wants to be a nag or viewed as controlling. It is better to stuff feelings. Besides, as you can see from the post above men are encouraged to vote with their feet instead of trying to work it out. If you leave this relationship the next will likely end up the same because you will have learned nothing.. You are likely to dominate the major decisions to suit yourself and the new squeeze will withdraw like your wife or fight you and become bitter. 

Please try not to do the common and ask more of her instead ask more of yourself. Get in touch with your feelings so that you have the ability to empathize with hers. Your wife has given up because she cant reach you emotionally you don't regard her feelings as important enough to consider an alternate agenda. When you do something for her, is it on your terms? Do you make a big deal about it? Take your statement about bringing up the timing to have a child. Again it seems you decided and you seem to consider it a loss on your scale instead of a loving gesture. Did you come to the decision to on the new timing on your own and then tell her? Can you see this as not giving any consideration to her. 

The way you talk about sex - seems you expect her to be grateful that you like to see her get pleasure. Again the terms you use seem to make it about you not her. You give her pleasure because of your need to see her get pleasure not because you want to share your love. Look at all of the things you are doing to get sex? These things are for what you can get out of it dont you think? They do not impress her because you don't know what she needs to feel love and a connection with you. They are all formulas, press button A and sex falls out. 

Do you really know what she needs and wants? Do you love her enough to see yourself as she sees you? Can you accept that because of your self-focus that you are not really a good husband. Good husbands have the ability to be in touch with their feelings, realize a relationship is not a win - lose proposition and they really love their female nature the one that feels and will yield to the feelings of others. 

That's the way I see it. I think if you go with the standard advice that your marriage may fail. What do you have to gain by thinking outside the box? Maybe the love of a woman and a happy marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Nikki1023 (Sep 24, 2011)

CupOJoe said:


> On different occasions I have casually asked her if anything was wrong and she blames the birth-control pill, which she started taking after we got married. She says she read that it lowers sexual desire. I am not denying that is true or minimizing that fact, but I feel that at some point you need to take responsibility for yourself and not rely on a convenient excuse. .



OK. Your totally wrong there and Ill tell you why. Understand what a birth control pill does to a woman's body. It messes around with her hormones. HORMONES. When a girl cant get wet..its really dosent feel that great, she probably dreads it.


----------



## arrrgman (Mar 10, 2011)

There seem to be some bitter and/or one sided responses coming from both sexes.

Saying "he's been had" I don't think is really fair to her. I doubt this was an intentionally planned con on her part. There is a reason she doesn't want it, and they need to get to the bottom of the reason so that it can be addressed.

Catherine: I feel you missed his point. I don't believe he was trying to glorify himself, and in effect say "see? it's all her!", I think he was trying to illustrate that, aside from those two significant, life-changing issues, he is considerate and loving to her, and that her feelings and satisfaction do matter to him.

Many of the responses here actually seem to highlight what may be the problem: the difference in how men and women perceive marriage and kids. Based on the responses to CupOJoe's comments, many of the men seem to feel his wife is being an unfair, manipulative b!tch. That characterization isn't fair to her.

By comparison, many of the female responses basically boil down to saying nothing the guy does will ever be good enough, and that marriage and kids on the woman's schedule is an accepted requirement to make a woman happy. That isn't fair to him. Marriage, and especially kids, are not decisions that should be rushed, or entered into lightly, and expecting him to kowtow to her timeline is just as wrong as expecting her to kowtow to his timeline.

Perhaps we should approach this from a different angle. Rather than trying to get to the bottom of why she doesn't want sex, let's try to get to the bottom of why he REALLY wants to wait on kids. Perhaps CupOJoe needs to think long and hard about WHY he was reluctant to get married, and WHY he doesn't feel ready for kids. There is never a "right" time, or a time where you will be financially stable enough, so matter how long you wait, so put aside the practical components.

CupOJoe: ask yourself, if you won the lottery today, and got promoted to senior mgmt at your work, so money and stability were not an option, would you then feel ready for kids? Somehow I doubt it. And if not, ask "why not?" In other words, make sure that the problem isn't that you are secretly afraid of committing to her for some reason. On the other hand, if you spend time in self-reflection and decide you really, truly love her, want to spend the rest of your life with her, don't want to imagine life without her, then maybe the problem is just fear or nerves about fatherhood, and it's time to take the plunge.

But you BOTH need to be 100% certain of your love and commitment to each other BEFORE you have kids, because once you do, your lives are forever inextricably linked.

Oh, and Nikki, you may be onto something there. Part of the problem may indeed be hormones. As a man, I admit I have no understanding what-so-ever of the female chemistry. As a married man, I have certainly seen the by-product of hormonal issues! Simple solution to wetness, provided the problem is physical and not emotional: lube.


----------



## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

CupOJoe said:


> On a daily basis my wife and I get along great and have a lot of fun together. We share a lot of common interests, have a large group of mutual friends and an active social life, take trips together, etc. Our friends refer to us as "the perfect couple". We kiss goodbye everyday when going to work and say "I love you" most days. We joke and laugh. Of course we have normal disagreements and arguments every now and then, but nothing too major. Our biggest point of contention is kids. She wants them now, I want to wait a couple years to further my career and put us in a better financial position.


Ok, the first thing you have to do is assess what you want in life. Is the "idea" of a good marriage, or the "look" of a good marriage the same as a good, fulfilling, happy life for you? Today, life is fun and your main problem is lack of sex. Think about 10 years in the future. You have kids to worry about, so your job is extremely important to their well being and therefore a source of stress. You have kids care, a tired wife, day care, school etc. In general life goes from basically fun and care free to very much work with lots of cares and worries. And, without that loving and sexual connection with your wife, you life becomes extremely unfulfilling. And this will last for 20 years. And your sexual desire for your wife will not go away.

I am the guy 20 years in your future and I will tell you do not have children with your wife, until the sexlessness is fixed. And, do not allow "babymaking" to be the cure for sexlessness because that is temporary.

I will also tell you that if you wife is not being sexual with you (and she was in the past), that the story book loving marriage that you feel you have is not something she feels she has. She has major unvoiced complaints in her heart about you as a husband and has run the idea of divorce through her mind many times.

The main thing for you to do is to figure out what you are doing that is not attractive to your wife. Don't ask her outright, she will not be able to answer and will not respect you for asking. One clue, it is hard for a woman to be attracted to a man who's reason for not having a baby is fear based. Have you been operating fear based? 

The lack of giving her a baby is a big issue, but the lack of sex started before that. Therefore, you solve the sex problem before the baby problem. And in fact, your mode from now on should be that unless the sex problem can be solved, there will be no babies because you are unwilling to live life like this.


----------



## CupOJoe (Sep 28, 2011)

> OK. Your totally wrong there and Ill tell you why. Understand what a birth control pill does to a woman's body. It messes around with her hormones. HORMONES. When a girl cant get wet..its really dosent feel that great, she probably dreads it.


I don't doubt that and I even stated so in my original post. Please also go back and read the part where I went down on her after she resisted foreplay and she got immediately wet. To me, that points to more of a mental block than a physiological block caused by the pill, but I repeat - I don't doubt or downplay the effect the pill has on women and hormones. In the same way I ask you not to downplay that the pill isn't the whole reason for the wetness problem. My wife refuses to use lube as well because she does not like how it feels.


----------



## CupOJoe (Sep 28, 2011)

Ok so from the responses that have been posted, the major consensus here is that the problem is that I won't agree to have kids at this moment and she wants them now and that led to hurt emotions/feelings/resentment which led to not wanting to have sex. But I feel that the majority of you are missing an important point that Hicks nailed right on the head:



> The lack of giving her a baby is a big issue, but the lack of sex started before that. Therefore, you solve the sex problem before the baby problem.


The lack of sex started from well before we ever discussed kids. I agree that the kids issue is huge and plays into the lack of sex, but I don't feel its accurate to pin this entire problem on one main issue. 

So I pose these questions to all: 

1) Say for hypotheticals that I decide to "man up" or "sh!t or get off the pot" as some of you put it and tell her that I have thought it over and want kids with her now. Do you really think this will magically solve all of the problems and the sex will become more frequent (outside of trying to get pregnant) and better? I somehow doubt it. So if you are one of the people telling me that I have been unfair and should honor her baby wishes immediately, then please by all means tell me what next? And after that? Have any of you been in this situation or have known anyone in this situation and seen it resolved to a positive conclusion? If so please share how they did it.

2) Why does the problem seemingly only manifest itself in the bedroom? If she is that hurt or resentful, shouldn't other areas of our life suffer as well? As I originally posted, we have a great daily relationship. I know some of you may tell me that I am just not seeing it, and she may not feel the same way, but I can honestly say that we get along great and she shows no other signs of resentment or unhappiness when usually if she is unhappy about something it is very difficult for her to hide.


----------



## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

I think the sex issue will get worse, not better, once you have a child. Resolve the issue (whatever it is) before bringing kids into the marriage.


----------



## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

CupOJoe said:


> 1) Say for hypotheticals that I decide to "man up" or "sh!t or get off the pot" as some of you put it and tell her that I have thought it over and want kids with her now. Do you really think this will magically solve all of the problems and the sex will become more frequent (outside of trying to get pregnant) and better? I somehow doubt it. So if you are one of the people telling me that I have been unfair and should honor her baby wishes immediately, then please by all means tell me what next? And after that? Have any of you been in this situation or have known anyone in this situation and seen it resolved to a positive conclusion? If so please share how they did it.


I don't think it's realistic that you would find a couple that had an unfulfilling sex life, then had a baby, and then started up with a fulfilling sex life. You will find many examples where this is reversed. Knowing that babies frequently diminish wives' sex drives for a long period of years, I would think long and hard about continuing your marriage. What you have to do is elevate in your mind and in you heart how important a sexually fulfilling marriage is to you, in comparison to the other elements of your marriage.



CupOJoe said:


> 2) Why does the problem seemingly only manifest itself in the bedroom? If she is that hurt or resentful, shouldn't other areas of our life suffer as well? As I originally posted, we have a great daily relationship. I know some of you may tell me that I am just not seeing it, and she may not feel the same way, but I can honestly say that we get along great and she shows no other signs of resentment or unhappiness when usually if she is unhappy about something it is very difficult for her to hide.


This is the journey you need to take in life, to understand the female sexual response. In short, a man will sexually respond to a woman just by looking, seeing, smelling her or thinking about her (i.e. just being together, married). On the flip side, a woman will not be sexual with a man simply because they are married.

Why do you think your wife is not sexual with you, or what has she told you in the past? I don't recommend asking her now, if you don't know though.


----------



## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

I may not actually have missed his point and I am not minimizing the importance of both people being on board for marriage and children. The main trust of my post was ask him to think about how he came to these pivotal decisions. The number of decision are two - I don't know what meaning you attach to just two but even one decision on a major issue can profoundly effect the stability of the relationship. The main thing is how important the issues are, how did they arrive at a decision and how comfortable each is with the decision. 

He is comfortable and happy with the pace and timing of the relationship, it happens that his wife was unhappy for both of them. I wonder why she hung around to marry him if she was not happy with the timing. She could have walked away and find a man who was closer to commitment. She had time, in two yrs she could have been in a relationship with someone who was more comparable. Her mistake was that she staid and was unhappy about it and his mistake was to not recognize the depth of her unhappiness. The fact that she had pregnancy fears cropped up at this time and she stopped having sex with him was to me a big red flag. The withdrawal of sex may well have been a communication of her unhappiness.

The sexual withdrawal and promises of great sex were like his promise to marry her at some future date. She may have felt disconnected and the withdrawal was a reaction to his hesitation with whether he wanted to marry her. She may have stuffed her feelings where she should have expressed them verbally and not symbolically. She should have been explicite and tell him that she felt unhappy with his hesitation that she did not feel connected enough to have sex with him. 

That would have been fairer to him and her. If he knew that, he may have decided to end the relationship and wait till he was ready to marry before entering a-committed relationship instead of getting to a committed relationship before he was ready. Thus released, she could have gone on to a man who was ready to commit. They were unwise not to have discussed when they wanted to have kids and what they would do during their childless years before they married. 

They seem wholly incompatible to me. They both made mistakes. He has his agenda to which he is entitled and she has hers. If they matched , that would be good. But it appears they don't. So you are left with a woman who is unhappy with what she has gotten herself into and a man who is unhappy because he wants sex. 

So what do they do short of divorce and finding people with more compatible goals in life. I suppose you can ask what made them fall in love in the first place and can they find it and reconnect. Was the passion so strong that they went ahead even with different agendas. Does not seem that way, sounds like a tepid relationship full of intellectual decisions based on logic which is fine. She may never have felt passionate enough to weather their disparate agendas. 

You can say till your blue in the face that she should have sex with him but that never made any women before now, you can tell him to leave her and that will solve the problem. Or you can ask him to change the way he is making decisions so that he maintains the connection. He can make sure that it is clear that his decisions are made out of love for her and wants a stable long term marriage with her. Her feelings needs to be acknowledged. 

This is basic human relationship stuff. Its between a man and woman but it still follows the basics. He is the one that needs to do the work because he has more of what he wants than she - he can afford to be generous if he wants. It is not about sex so if he starts there I don't think he will get sex. The disconnect will continue until one of them throws up their hands. Don't be so sure it will be him. 70% of divorces are initiated by women. 

Maybe she will respond in kind. It takes just one person to change. He can let her know that he understands what it means to her to have a child and wants that too. He can discuss that he wants to enjoy time with her alone discovering the would before they have kids. He said he wants to have fun before kids, that sounds like his agenda and no attempt to acknowledge that she will be with him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## mmjj (Aug 29, 2011)

I know about the resentment your wife might be feeling. I am similar to your wife. I have a schedule of when I want to get married and have children. By "schedule" I mean what I want to accomplish and where I want to be at at certain times in my life. I do like to have a plan, I do not just go through life without at least thinking about where I want to be in 1, 2, 5 yrs from now.

Quick background on me is I am soon to be 30, engaged since March, and have found the person I want to marry and have a family with. I always wanted to get married by the time I turned 30 and have kids soon after. After we got engaged I went about trying to plan a wedding and our life together for a month until he told me until things improve in our relationship we would not be getting married. I was very disappointed and hurt because I thought we would be getting married and he was messing up my schedule. 

Our sex life has been an issue for awhile, ever since I went on birth control and over time things got worse. He thought things would improve after we got engaged but it didn't just flip a switch and make me want to have sex. Sex is emotional for women. With the birth control lowering my sex drive and then the disappointment and resentment for him not wanting to get married I did not have that emotional connection needed to want to have sex with him.

I don't think your wife is purposely withholding sex to punish you. It is more subconscious because she is feeling hurt and has emotionally detached from you because she doesn't want to feel the hurt anymore. 

Do not have children until your relationship has improved. A child isn't going to improve her emotional connection to you. 

Even though you are helping around the house, being very nice and everything it isn't going to make her want to have sex with you. Something needs to change in her. Every time my bf wanted to talk about our "sex issue" I would be very upset, withdrawn, make excuses, defensive, and just not want to talk about it. I don't know if that is how your wife is. It doesn't help to talk about the "sex". You need to talk to her about why she isn't emotionally connected to you anymore. If that connection improves so will the sex. It won't happen overnight but will slowly improve. 

From the lack of sex you are probably acting very grumpy and get upset over small things and every time you are rejected for sex. That isn't going to help the situation either. Nobody wants to have sex with someone that is unhappy and pouts whenever they are denied sex. 

I think you need to have a serious conversation with her about how you are feeling and where you think your relationship is headed. Just don't make it all about sex and how you do so much for her and she does nothing for you. You are asking for an argument. She may not have the answers for all your questions but at least give her something to think about and in time she may.


----------



## Scannerguard (Jan 26, 2010)

I think the forum is may be correct to tie this to having children. . .I think they may be on to something here.

I have learned that having kids on a schedule is something as biological to women as much as sex is biological to men.

YOu can't help your urges, right, CupOJoe? Well, to a certain extent, neither can she. I know it doesn't make logical sense to a male - what? She has a desire to reproduce but not have sex? How can that be?

Well, I have a childless 43 year old male friend who is "there" right now - dying to have children he can call his own. He often says he is jealous of what I have. He's actually considering a surrogate at this point. So, perhaps the urge is universal but just delayed.

I know the forum has chastized me for saying this (because they don't understand the reasoning behind what I am saying) but in a lot of ways, this is why I feel a 40 year old man is a match for a 25 year old woman.

Honestly, what 25 year old guy is ready and capable of handling a child in this day and age? I know I WASN'T ready at 25. I barely feel I am keeping it together now. But I am ready for it emotionally now at 43. Sure, throw another kid in the mix, I say now. . .I'm in the poorhouse anyway, lol.

You, at age what, 28(?), are rightfully thinking of:

1. Lost nights sleep
2. Cranky baby/toddler
3. Cranky wife
3a. Cranky wife with no sex to boot
4. $250,000 to raise the child
5. $150,000 to educate the child
6. You can kiss golfing on the weekends goodbye
7. You had better trade that sports car in for a minivan
8. Yes, you have to walk around with a diaper bag with duckies on it because your wife tells you to.

You know what's she's thinking?

1. Awwwww. Golly! Aren't babies so cute? (lol)

THAT is only where her head is. Oh yeah, she may talk about the practicalities, but in my experience, that is NOT where her head is at. Remember, most girls play with baby dolls from about what? Age 3? Yeah, my 3 year old son plays with kitchen sets (all my boys did) but I didn't see any of them want to play with baby dolls. *That's *how engrained this is.

We can flip this on you by the way with sex:

She's thinking:

1. What if I get pregnant?
2. What if I get pregnant?

You're thinking:

1. I gotta have sex now or I'll go crazy.

In reference to the above, the women here have often assumed I mean that women older than 25 aren't attractive or something. . .no. . .that is not what I meant at all.

Do you see the point I am trying to make to you, over a beer here in the forum, dude?

Try to open up a thoughtful dialogue on this and get back to us. I am curious as hell to see where it goes.

As far as my tag-a-long question. . .okay, assuming that mostly they are on the same page with having kids. . .*how long* is he morally obligated to diagnose this? I'd like to pin the forum to a number.


----------



## CupOJoe (Sep 28, 2011)

mmjj it definitely helps to hear an objective viewpoint from a woman that is feeling similar to my wife. 

Catherine, I think you make many good points and much of your analysis is accurate, but what you present seems very idealistic. I don't know how many couples in the world are compatible, attracted to each other, AND share all the same goals and timeline. Even if my wife and I had recognized our incompatibilities sooner and pursued separate relationships with people more on our own schedules, I feel that would not have guaranteed smooth sailing for each of us. Also, I don't think that "a committed relationship" automatically means marriage. I was in a very committed relationship and reassured her of that often and about when we would get married. I went YEARS without sex after the "pregnancy scares" to show her my commitment to her and her feelings, when many men would have left. Don't misunderstand my words, I don't resent her for this and I'm not looking for a prize for it, but to say that just because I gave her a different timetable for marriage means I was not extremely committed is silly.

Scannerguard, you are pretty spot on with your points about both what I'm thinking and what she's thinking lol. I do understand that she has these innate urges and I am trying to be sympathetic toward them. I may get heat for this as well, but I can honestly see your point about the 40/25 match and I agree. I will definitely open a thoughful dialogue with my wife, and will keep the forum updated to hopefully help future people reading this. My conversation will have to wait until next week though since we are going away for a wedding over the weekend and that hardly seems like the right time or place to bring this up.

To keep the discussion going in the meantime, I offer this food for thought:

Since many people say I need to put myself in her shoes, pretend this situation was reversed. Lets say it was me who wanted kids right now, but my wife was very career-driven and wanted to wait 2 years to further her career and travel some more. She said she understood my desire to have kids but it is also important to her than we can compromise on this. This led to resentment on my part and an emotional disconnect which led to me not wanting to have sex with her. Say I came to this forum and posted about my problem saying I am unhappy about her hestitation and don't feel connected enough to have sex with her. Some may disagree, but I feel that I would STILL be the one to take the brunt of the blame in the responses and that people would jump on me for not respecting her choices, goals, and timeline! It is a double-edged sword and I would get stabbed either way.


----------



## Scannerguard (Jan 26, 2010)

CupOJoe:

Oh, no. . .it may seem that way (and maybe some forum posters are doing this), but we are not laying this problem at your feet and excusing your wife.

That's just it - there can be 1000 excuses of why not to have sex for a woman. Ususally for a man, there is about 3:

1. Can't get it up.
2. Just had sex an hour ago (really, that's a repeat of 1)
3. Low T
4. Mother just died (well, men could still probably do it  )

But I think we are trying to do this in a spirit of helping you, not to assign blame to anyone- to give you a correct "diagnosis." We all just want to see you happy and fulfilled. It's also why I am trying to run a parallel topic of how long does a marriage have to be sexless and how long do you have to fix it before it becomes invalid? I can't seem to get a straight answer on that, or even an estimate. . .it should probably be a separate topic.

Your thread alone hasn't inspired me to ask that question - it's the cumulation of threads.

Yeah, I get what you are complaining about. . ."Reproductive Decisions" usually seem to rest in the province of being female. Well, that's because they carry the baby, nurse the baby, mother the baby, all pretty much more difficult than fathering the baby.

So, yes, there is probably bias there. . .if a female says, "I wanna wait." 

Guess what? You're waiting. lol.

Just like the basement is the male province. So back off, women! lol.

But you have to realize. . .tick, tock, tick, tock, the biological clock. Women don't have a lot of time to mess around on this. "Advanced Maternal Age" is what? 35? (which I think is ridiculous but nonetheless it is). 

You can make a baby at 55 years old. She can't.

We try to seperate it as much as we can, don't we? Birth control? But in the end, sex and reproduction are irreversibly tied to each other, at the hip, pun intended.


----------



## Scannerguard (Jan 26, 2010)

Again, I'd like to add on to this:

Lest again, you think we are "favoring" your wife in this "dispute", let me say, that despite the forum perhaps giving the strongest possiblity at the "diagnosis", I* still* find it concerning she can just "turn off" like that with HER hormones.

Yes, I think after 15 years I understand the female perspective much better so I can get anger/resentment = loss of libido.

But what I am worried about for you is the long term picture.

Okay, sex is bad now. How about when Junior comes? Think it's getting any better? Well. .. it may actually. May. I'd say there is a subset of women, after they are done with having their kids, and can relax on pregancy with family planning/birth control, and the kids are older, all of the sudden open up sexually and "hit their peak" at 35-40.

SimplyAmorous is one who I think described her evolution that way (and she can correct me if I am wrong). I don't think her story is uncommon (otherwise, why would there even be a "known female peak?")

I am not sure there is any reliable way to predict if this will be your wife or not. 

She may just shut down and never open up. She may evolve to "I got my kids now. I'm done with sex. What's the point of sex?"

I know it sucks to hear. . .but I just don't know. Wish I did. But I don't.

I know it must be uncomfortable to unemotionally assess your wife from a distance like this - but what's your honest take? "I don't know" is an acceptable answer.


----------



## Nikki1023 (Sep 24, 2011)

Scannerguard said:


> I know the forum has chastized me for saying this (because they don't understand the reasoning behind what I am saying) but in a lot of ways, this is why I feel a 40 year old man is a match for a 25 year old woman.
> 
> Honestly, what 25 year old guy is ready and capable of handling a child in this day and age? I know I WASN'T ready at 25. I barely feel I am keeping it together now. But I am ready for it emotionally now at 43. Sure, throw another kid in the mix, I say now. . .I'm in the poorhouse anyway, lol..


HAHA! Cant believe you said that. And I'll tell you why:

My H was 23 when we got married, I was 20. It was 100% his idea..we eloped after knowing each other 3 months. I got pregnant 7 months later, once again his idea ( def happy though, my daughter is amazing) 

But, guess who still wanted to go out, drink, spend time with the guys, play wing man and flirt with random women...? Def not me. 

This past week I kept telling myself I need to find a guy in his lates 30s- 40s who has his [email protected]@ together, and knows what he wants in life. IM not saying all guys in their 40s know who they are, and all guys in there 20s dont- but it came in my head. 

Just thought it was hysterical that you said that, cause I thought it too, and I am turning 25..haha


----------



## Scannerguard (Jan 26, 2010)

Nikki,

Yes, that's all I meant and there is an element of truth in it. A grandmotherly saying used to be, "A man ain't worth a dam until he's 40" when advising women on who to hook up with.

But yes, there is definitely an element of "youthful energy" that is lacking in men who are 40. Guilty as charged. I don't relish the idea of another baby/toddler but perhaps if I had none up til this point, I'd be itching like my friend.

Hard to say honestly, my life for the last 14 years has been nothing but work and raising kids.

Of course, fast foward to when the man is 53 and she's 38. . .she's "peaking" and he's tracking his investments online, lol.

Anyway, point is. . .I think being close in age for men and women often results in a major misalignment in goals. Your husband wasnm't necessarily wrong for wanting to be "Wing Man" at age 23. He's supposed to want to do that stuff. He probably really wasn't ready for marriage. He was only in love with you.

This happens throughout life. My son is 14 and thinking about baseball and video games. The girls his age are trying their hands at a "relationship", lol.

God help him.

He's swimming with sharks


----------



## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Pills making her lose her drive eh? 
:rofl:
Heh well if that worked on my wife I wouldn't be whining left right and center about her nymphomania! Personally I think it could be deeper issues like others have suggested.


----------



## Nikki1023 (Sep 24, 2011)

RandomDude said:


> Pills making her lose her drive eh?
> :rofl:
> Heh well if that worked on my wife I wouldn't be whining left right and center about her nymphomania! Personally I think it could be deeper issues like others have suggested.


The only reason why I put my 2 cents in about that, is because I know from experience. Not from using birth control pills..but form breastfeeding. My doctor told me I would lose my sex drive..and to buy lube for when I had sex. He was def right.

I dont doubt theres a deeper issue..but I also dont think that when she tells him she's not into..she's using it as a convenient excuse.
Maybe the combination of the two is whats really making it that bad for him.

I mean from my personal experience, even when me and my husband went through our rough patches we still had sex. Just didnt cuddle so much afterward.


----------



## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Please do not make a child with this person. If she is indifferent to your needs, why would you imagine she would be attentive to the needs of an infant? How dark and nasty would your soul have to become before you could watch with indifference while your wife starves, shivvers to death, dies of thirst, or suffers for want of some need you could easily provide? She knows what you want and need but that knowledge doesn't movitate her to do anything about it because she cares more about her wants than yours. Her own promise to you doesn't nudge her to action. She seems to be propelled by the whims of her own emotions. Don't think I'd want to leave a helpless infant in the care of someone like that. If the baby angers her, is she going to quit feeding it? If a woman can't handle the simple maintenance of a man, what qualifies her to raise a baby? A decent parent has to be selfless. It's a job of perpetual sacrifice.


----------



## Scannerguard (Jan 26, 2010)

Whoa. . .unbelievable. . .I think that's a bit harsh and I've been known to be hard on the opposite sex at times.

Don't you think?

Don't get me wrong. . .I get your plea to CupOJoe to tred carefully and I think I share your trepidation. . .but I don't know. . .just because she is asexual, I wouldn't think i could extend that she would be an incapable mother. 

In fact, she may be a great one. Just not a good wife maybe.

Reminds of the scene in Shawshank where Red says, "Makes you a bad husband maybe, bu tnot a killer."


----------



## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Scanner. 
Think so? Is she aware that her husband has sexual needs and they aren't being met, therefore, he is suffering? Answer: Yes.
Is she physically capable of taking care of his needs or at least alleviating much of his suffering? Yes. Why doesn't she? It costs her nothing but a few minutes of her time to take care of his needs (also her obligations). What happens when a child needs her to really step up to the plate? A person who shows their lack of character in small issues isn't going to magically develop great character when large issues arise.


----------



## JRG (Feb 26, 2011)

I have a similar issue and, after a long period of time, it's looking like my marriage may end (not to my wanting, mind you). 

I wonder whether, for many women, committment is the ultimate turn-off. I mean, you read these save-your-marriage and how-to-make-yourself-attractive-to-your-mate websites and advisors and many say that, if you want your mate to be interested, start pulling away and show that you don't need her. With my wife, with her shutdowns over the years, sometimes when I move toward giving up, she turned back in. And several weeks ago, after months of her sexual rejections, I showed willingness to consider divorce and, all of a sudden, the idea made her feel "spaciousness" and "freedom" and she became horny for two days (and, believe me, "horny" has not been in her vocabulary for years!). But then, when she considered moving back into our bedroom, she freaked out, shut down again, and has not been back in since. Instead, she's researching how to have a "good divorce". (Like there IS such a beast.)

I'm certainly not making a sweeping statement here...but it seems that committment...something that you'd THINK would make your spouse feel appreciative and loving about...may, for some people, be the equivalent of squeezing the sexual life out of them. 

:-(


----------



## JRG (Feb 26, 2011)

unbelievable said:


> Scanner.
> Think so? Is she aware that her husband has sexual needs and they aren't being met, therefore, he is suffering? Answer: Yes.
> Is she physically capable of taking care of his needs or at least alleviating much of his suffering? Yes. Why doesn't she? It costs her nothing but a few minutes of her time to take care of his needs (also her obligations). What happens when a child needs her to really step up to the plate? A person who shows their lack of character in small issues isn't going to magically develop great character when large issues arise.



I wrote a poem recently on this general topic. Here's the first stanza of it:

Dear Mommy,
I can’t understand
How can you make me see?
If you could stop loving my Daddy
When will you stop loving me?

I think it illustrates "Unbelievable"'s point. If you could stand in front of all your friends and family, in front of G-d (if you believe in G-d), in front of your spouse-to-be...if you could swear in front of all these people your committment, your loyalty, your willingness to always keep their needs at an equal par with your own and to never turn your back on that person just because you don't FEEL like it...and then you do it anyway when your desire starts to wane...why should ANYONE trust you? The most sacred promise you could make and you bust it. Now, granted, there's a biological connection between a mother and a child that is absent with the spouse...but if a person's value system is so out-of-kilter that he or she could completely devalue the needs to the spouse they made vows to, I wouldn't put it past that person to do the same to a parent, a sibling, a friend...or even their own child. What do they say about those troubled youth who start off abusing pets and then graduate to people...?


----------



## Nikki1023 (Sep 24, 2011)

So wait. You are saying, if a woman refuses to fulfill her husbands needs..she would be a bad mother because she wouldnt want to fulfill her children s needs, because thats the type of person she is. Your totally reaching on that. 

I 100% agree, sex is important in any relationship. And if a person dosent really want to give you sex before your married..what makes you think theyre all of a sudden going to want to give it to you after your married. You hear of alot of people having less sex after they are married due to kids, stress, and whatever else..but to think youd actually have more sex with a person after you marry is crazy. 

You got a taste of her sexual habits, and married them along with her.

You cant make her foot the entire blame. She wasnt giving it up before marriage. I have a friend whose engaged now..his girlfriend makes throw up sounds everytime he talks about sex. My gut tells me, they arent gonna be doing it much after they get married. 

SOOO if lack of sex is that important to you, which it is to most, you have a few options.

1. Get over it and except she's not a sexual person
2. Try to figure out why she isnt a sexual person, and address it


----------



## Nikki1023 (Sep 24, 2011)

When I said youd be crazy to have more sex with a person after you marry..I meant being in a situation where the person shows no interest in sex. 

NOT when a person enjoys sex.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

There is a narrow lane that separates stifling stability and disruptive instability. An overly stable environment does kill many womens sex drives. 

I live in that narrow lane. 




JRG said:


> I have a similar issue and, after a long period of time, it's looking like my marriage may end (not to my wanting, mind you).
> 
> I wonder whether, for many women, committment is the ultimate turn-off. I mean, you read these save-your-marriage and how-to-make-yourself-attractive-to-your-mate websites and advisors and many say that, if you want your mate to be interested, start pulling away and show that you don't need her. With my wife, with her shutdowns over the years, sometimes when I move toward giving up, she turned back in. And several weeks ago, after months of her sexual rejections, I showed willingness to consider divorce and, all of a sudden, the idea made her feel "spaciousness" and "freedom" and she became horny for two days (and, believe me, "horny" has not been in her vocabulary for years!). But then, when she considered moving back into our bedroom, she freaked out, shut down again, and has not been back in since. Instead, she's researching how to have a "good divorce". (Like there IS such a beast.)
> 
> ...


----------



## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

This thread is a classic - from now on when I see the man-hater victim card pulled, I'll post a link back to this thread. You would think this women is the devil incarnate because she will not have sex with her husband. I am certain this is enormously revealing to the OP. He probably had not recognized this fallen angel in his home. 

But then again her husband may actually defend his wife. Men do protect what they value. If he is not outraged by the over-the-top accusations thrown at his wife that may be the seat of his problems. He hates her. Men can have sex with someone they hate but women generally avoid it like his wife. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## allisterfiend (Sep 29, 2011)

She is getting it somewhere else


----------



## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Catherine, nicely worded.

This may sound "ying and yang"... but here goes:

Needing another person's body to satisfy yourself seems selfish.
If you never had sex again in your life, you would not die. You would not get ill, or develop gangrene. You would survive and adapt.

Remove the word NEED. Replace it with want. Express yourself to your spouse as you "want" to share yourself with them. You don't need to, and no one has an obligation to be the vessel for someone else's physical urges. Or a stress reliever. But it's about sharing.
That's why "romance" sometimes works for some women. 
It's something you enjoy, together. It's something you WANT to do, together. It makes you feel closer. It's how you express your feelings.
Does your spouse know this? Or is it an obligation to fulfill your needs? Do you fool around without acutally asking for sex? I mean like first base, second base, no pushing it further. Over a period of time. No pressure for sex. For awhile. See what happens. Who knows. She might even believe after awhile that it's something you want, with her, and not as fulfilling a need. 

I've gone through this in a previous relationship. Want versus need certainly made me feel more willing and comfortable.


----------



## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

You know I could never figure out why the "sex as a need" was so distasteful to me. When I read post by men who are in sex starved marriages they say they need sex. However, they speak of emotional distress. It is obvious that they want sex with the woman they fell in love with and selected for marriage. Any man can get sex from a random chick to satisfy a need. Why then do they suffer emotionally when they are not having sex with their wives then? From what I am reading on TAM, their first choice is the one they love and that is a want.

I think my aversion to the talk of need may be common among women I don't know though. I know that when my husband tells me he loves seeing my lips around his man parts, it makes me feel special and loved. I think if he said he needs a bj, I might feel a disconnect, - he needs one but any mouth will do. 

I suppose that's why woman can be exasperating to men - a turn of phraseology may make all the diffidence *sight*. I can understand why men think that a woman sexuality is like trying to open a box locked by an enigma-generated code. If only sex education was retooled as relationship education - that would make all the difference I think. It is needed and I pray it will happen.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Scannerguard (Jan 26, 2010)

Nikki:



> but to think youd actually have more sex with a person after you marry is crazy.


I found this revealing.

Why is that crazy?


----------



## Nikki1023 (Sep 24, 2011)

Nikki1023 said:


> When I said youd be crazy to have more sex with a person after you marry..I meant being in a situation where the person shows no interest in sex.
> 
> NOT when a person enjoys sex.


right after i wrote that, I wrote this statement above. ppl who dont have much sex b4 marriage, dont strike me as those who would have more after marriage.

hes saying she barely gave it to him b4 marriage..and she still dosent give it to him now. seems like thats her sex drive to me.

ppl who have alot of sex b4 marriage..might slow down..might not.

understand? i know it was shakey


----------



## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

@ CupOJoe ~ Have you decided how you are going to approach this with your wife?


----------



## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Where I come from, a vow means something. I took one to join the military, to get married, and when I became a police officer. These are sacred promises to behave in certain ways regardless of how you feel. A soldier or a cop who can't keep these vows in the little matters doesn't need to bother asking my recommendation for a promotion. The relationship between husband and wife is the foundation upon which a family rests. If a man or a woman can't handle their most basic responsibilities to their mate, they don't need to take on additional obligations. If a contractor does a piss-poor job of constructing the foundation, what makes anyone believe the rest of the structure would be sound?


----------



## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

unbelievable,
the committment or obligation, IMO, is about making a committment to talk about problems, not allowing them to manifest into the bedroom. Not an obligation to have sex, regardless of what is wrong in the relationshp. That's using each other for physical satisfaction.

I think women stop having sex after marriage partly because a certain amount of resentment builds. Subtly. Taken for granted feelings. 
It is very common, because it's un-common for women to not associate sex with feeling like a vessel for someone's needs. Differences between women and men, I just wish more women would understand that it is more about sharing feelings for men. 

Do I understand this? Yes. Because I've always had a higher sex drive, and I don't often allow "feelings" to get in the way. Meaning even if I am angry about something, geez you look hot, and I want to get it on. I still love and desire the person. I have not held grudges in the bedroom in the past. Until now. Only because a grudge is being held to me, and I'm being denied, and he won't tell me what the problem is. So I think I understand. 

Do I think he has an obligation to have sex with me? NO. I think he has an obligation to work on his issues with us. And that may translate to the bedroom, or it will translate to a divorce.


----------



## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

In general, I believe people engage in selfish behaviors only when they can do so and get away with it. We've created a society where there is no real adverse consequence for treating one's spouse like garbage. We don't even expect mothers to feed their kids breakfast before sending them to school. Husbands can loaf around for months without working or sleep around and there are no real societal consequences.


----------



## Scannerguard (Jan 26, 2010)

Unbelievable,

Yeah, but if you want to get "technical" (since you kind of are), there is no "vow" in marital vows saying, "I promise to spread my legs. . ." That is, I am not sure sex is an "entitlement" like you are positing.

Now, I do think a lot of times there isn't enough "pre-education" on what a marriage means, like a disclosure or an "informed consent" process:

1. Do you understand that you need to have sex to keep this marriage consummated and valid?
2. Do you understand that this is each person's chance at having kids?

and so on with other bits and pieces of education. Please initial here sorta thing.

Honestly, I am not sure what some people are thinking. Hell, I don't know what I was thinking.

I don't know. . .I am not willing to extend your argument that just because a woman (or man) doesn't have sex with you - they are unfit to be a parent.

As a judge, I certainly would NOT award more parenting time to a parent based on that, if that was your argument (the whole carpenter foundation thing)

"Your Honor, obviouisly because my wife won't have sex with me, she is unfit to parent this child."

You may believe that but I dont think that's a fair metric by which to judge a woman or man's ability to mother or father.


----------



## Scannerguard (Jan 26, 2010)

Unbelievable:

You know. . .it could be fired back upon you. . ."That's the problem with everyone nowadays. They feel entitled, instead of having to earn it."

I'm not trying to bust your chops because I see your point - you want your kids to be able to model a successful marriage. That being said, I think kids are smart enough to figure out what's up and down eventually on their own (model a successful marriage, if that wasn't the parents).


----------



## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

deejov, one doesn't have to guess what the rules are. The bible says husbands don't deny their wives sex and wives don't deny their husbands sex. No requirement to talk about sex. Talking about work doesn't feed my family. Talking about taking my wife to the doctor doesn't treat her illness. When you marry, you promise to love and honor the other person. No one can promise to always feel lovingly, so the promise is to behave lovingly, regardless of how you feel. If it is made clear to both parties that the vows are meaningless and only require each party to talk about desired or expected behaviors, only idiots would get married. Most of the talking should occur before the offer of marriage is made and before the vows. No sane person enters into a contract without having some clear idea of what performance is expected from both contracting parties. Almost no man would agree to marry a woman if she made it clear to him that she would avoid or deny sex. A promise to only do what one wishes on those days one feels like it is not a serious promise. I can expect that level of commitment out of even the most vile, evil person on earth.


----------



## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

I still go back to post #1.

Sex is a need. It is an emotional need. If we define needs as only what is needed for survival, then all a person needs is food, water and oxygen. The main purpose of a marriage is to meet your partners needs and have your needs met.

It is very wrong to minimize OP's need for sex. His wife having a baby will kill whatever minimal sex drive she has. His marriage has a high likelhood of divorce and bringing a child into that damages that child. In my opinion, both he and his wife have to resolve their issues so that they have a functioning marriage before bringing a child into it. If his wife "needs" a child then she is being very selfish and not thinking about the life of that child, if she is willing to bring it into a non functioning marriage.


----------



## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

UB, I agree with you, that is how marriage should work. I am fully able to do this, I will not deny sex as I understand that it is an important way of communicating feelings. And the act of denying causes HUGE issues in a marriage. It should be worked out. I would not treat someone I loved that way. 

I'm just saying that very very few women understand this. Most women have a mental line in their head. One thing that can help bridge understanding is helping your spouse to understand that it's about wanting and not needing. Whether or not it makes sense to you as a man. 

Here's another spin to this....
Traditionally, men have the "obligation" to provide for the family. Any deviance from this stereotype, or behavior that falls under irresponsible can get mentally translated by a woman to permission to no longer have sex. 

Why do we judge each other so harshly?


----------



## Scannerguard (Jan 26, 2010)

> Here's another spin to this....
> Traditionally, men have the "obligation" to provide for the family. Any deviance from this stereotype, or behavior that falls under irresponsible can get mentally translated by a woman to permission to no longer have sex.
> 
> Why do we judge each other so harshly?


Agree with you on this and a great point to bring up. If a man isn't earning as much as the woman may like, often they lose attraction for him. It can be rather biological. . .so again, another "valid reason why."

So, a woman may say, "Well, you have not provided to my standards. That was part of your vows to me. Therefore, I shall divorce you." just like a man could say, "Sex is not to my standards. I shall divorce you."

It's all a legitimate reason why.

But as to your judgment observation. . .that's why on the parallel thread to this, I am trying to get us all out of "judgment" and "why" mode, at least when the symptoms persist for a long time. I am not sure endless investigation is fruitful for either party, the disenchanted one or the frustrated one.


----------



## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

I will go look at the other thread.

But don't expect a lot of sympathy.
Give up the sex on a regular basis, but don't expect or ask me to "change".


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

And this is exactly why having sex with my W right now is emotionally fraught. It is something I do WITH her not TO her. And she is only feeling the desire to be "close" not really feeling true "sexual" desire. And I feel somewhat selfish. Deep sigh.




Catherine602 said:


> You know I could never figure out why the "sex as a need" was so distasteful to me. When I read post by men who are in sex starved marriages they say they need sex. However, they speak of emotional distress. It is obvious that they want sex with the woman they fell in love with and selected for marriage. Any man can get sex from a random chick to satisfy a need. Why then do they suffer emotionally when they are not having sex with their wives then? From what I am reading on TAM, their first choice is the one they love and that is a want.
> 
> I think my aversion to the talk of need may be common among women I don't know though. I know that when my husband tells me he loves seeing my lips around his man parts, it makes me feel special and loved. I think if he said he needs a bj, I might feel a disconnect, - he needs one but any mouth will do.
> 
> ...


----------



## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> And this is exactly why having sex with my W right now is emotionally fraught. It is something I do WITH her not TO her. And she is only feeling the desire to be "close" not really feeling true "sexual" desire. And I feel somewhat selfish. Deep sigh.


MEM don't feel selfish feel loved. That how she wants you to feel. I love to cook, serve the meal and watch every one enjoy. Sometimes I am dead tiered but I cannot pass up the opportunity to see the faces of my family when I cook something that is delicious and beautiful. If they felt selfish to eat because I was tired I would be deflated. My reward is to see them enjoy. 

Same if I am not in the mood for sex but I work with my husband to warm me up. If he felt selfish it would upset me. He feels loved and he let's me know. He does not act grateful, that would be undignified to me but he is happy with me. I think to myself "I did that, I put that contented look on his face and I didn't even have my A game !" That is my reward, in addition to the closeness with him. Feel loved and let her know that you do. She is doing it for you and it would hurt her if she thought that you were uncomfortable.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

I did not make the rules. The Creator of the universe did. Doesn't really matter if we agree with the rules or that we understand His motivations.


----------



## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

unbelievable said:


> I did not make the rules. The Creator of the universe did. Doesn't really matter if we agree with the rules or that we understand His motivations.


At the risk of reparating myself, from a couple of other post,

"_Not withstanding all the foldeerol in the bible about "not denying your husband / wife" etc, in a Church of England wedding, no-one promises to actually have sex with anyone."_
and

"_Disclaimer: I've been married once, in a church of england service, and claim no knowledge or understanding of any other faith or denomination (and in fact a pretty poor understanding of THAT one!).

The CofE marriage mentions those being married having sex during the preface ('through the joy of their bodily union, may strengthen the union of their hearts and lives.' ). I think this is what is meant here.

In the declarations it says 'N, will you take N to be your wife? Will you love her, comfort her, honour and protect her, and, *forsaking all others, be faithful to her *as long as you both shall live?', emph. mine i.e. you declare you won't have sex with anyone else.

In the vows it isn't mentioned.

Takehome seems to be that you are told you are permitted to, and that it may (might? could?) "strengthen the union", that you declare you won't have it with anyone else, but nowhere does anyone say they anyone has to or will do or should do. Go figure._ "

No one swears they will, nor do they make an oath to do it, nor is it explicitly mentioned that you should. If it's in the rules, it's in the fine print somewhere...


----------



## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

I didn't vow to not put diesel fuel in my new car. The owners manual strongly suggests I don't. I didn't make the car and I presume those who designed it know what will make it run properly and what will destroy it. God made humans. I didn't. He gives clear guidance on how to behave as a husband or a wife. The instructions don't have power because they are uttered aloud in the presence of witnesses and a couple pinkey swears to follow the instructions. The instructions are powerful because they came from the Creator. If I pay $40K for a new car, I'm going to read the owner's manual and do my best to abide by what's in it. It was written for my benefit. There's no mention of God ever making Himself a wife. His instructions regarding marriage were given to help me. I ignore them at my own peril.


----------



## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

unbelievable said:


> The instructions don't have power because they are uttered aloud in the presence of witnesses and a couple pinkey swears to follow the instructions.


Read what I wrote. No-one makes an oath to _actually have sex with their partner_. They simply swear NOT to have sex with anyone else. They aren't disobeying their oaths. They didn't make an oath to shag one another!


----------



## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Sawney,

If I contract with McDonalds to eat all my meals there, it is implied that McDonalds agrees to feed me. If McDonalds doesn't sell food or McDonalds is unwiilling to sell food to me my promise means nothing. What sane man would promise to only have sex with a sexless woman? That would amount to a vow of celibacy and he doesn't need a female partner to be celibate. The whole idea of selecting a "mate" is that "mating" will occur. Anyone who enters into a marriage contract not knowing that "mating" will occur should consider themselves a moron. Anyone entering into a marriage contract secretly intending to avoid sex is a liar and a fraud.


----------



## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

unbelievable said:


> Sawney,
> 
> If I contract with McDonalds to eat all my meals there, it is implied that McDonalds agrees to feed me. If McDonalds doesn't sell food or McDonalds is unwiilling to sell food to me my promise means nothing. What sane man would promise to only have sex with a sexless woman? That would amount to a vow of celibacy and he doesn't need a female partner to be celibate. The whole idea of selecting a "mate" is that "mating" will occur. Anyone who enters into a marriage contract not knowing that "mating" will occur should consider themselves a moron. Anyone entering into a marriage contract secretly intending to avoid sex is a liar and a fraud.


Maybe, but you're still implying that there's some sort of "rule" that people are obligated to uphold within the institution of marriage. You might believe it's true, but it isn't written down anywhere and no-one swears to uphold it. Hence, the "rule" is unenforceable and as a mechanism for getting what you think is "right" it's about as useful as a glass hammer.

As for "...promise to only have sex with a sexless woman..." when you say "...forsaking all others, be faithful to her..." isn't that is precisely, exactly and completely what you are doing if she proves to be sexless? No ifs, no buts, no let-out clauses?


----------



## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

I can live with another human being for the rest of my life but the law will not consider us "married". If I live with a woman and have sex with her, eventually the law will consider us married under common law, because the law and every reasonble human being on earth recognizes that sex is a part of a "normal" marriage. Similarly, since the beginning of time until the very recent past, refusing to have sex was grounds for annullment and a marriage wasn't even legally valid without sex.


----------



## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

unbelievable said:


> I can live with another human being for the rest of my life but the law will not consider us "married".


Correct


> If I live with a woman and have sex with her, eventually the law will consider us married under common law, because the law and every reasonble human being on earth recognizes that sex is a part of a "normal" marriage.


Wrong. "Common law" marriages haven't existed in England since the eighteenth century. The law provides precisely NO recognition for people who cohabit.



> Similarly, since the beginning of time until the very recent past, refusing to have sex was grounds for annullment and a marriage wasn't even legally valid without sex.


Let's put it this way. I strongly suspect my stone age ancestors had sex when they felt like it, didn't when they didn't and didn't beat themselves up about some theoretical institution under which they should have been bonking.

At one time, provided the groom could display the bloodstained sheets after the first night to prove "the dirty deed was done", the marriage had been consumated and if they never had sex again it didn't matter.

None of which changes anything: all the history, expectation, precedent and unwritten rules don't make it an _enforceable_ "requirement" today.


----------



## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Maybe there's no sane reason at all. Maybe you're just looking at it wrong like there's an actual rational explanation that makes sense to the rest of us. Some people are just tweaked in the head and do things without having a good reason even if it hurts everyone, especially if it hurts THEM. They're in love with their own misery.


----------



## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

actual rational explanation....
Everyone has their own personal boundaries and levels of acceptance.
Hopefully your spouse has similar ones. 
Your sexless spouse might make someone else very happy, and vice versa. If your love is conditional, then find someone who has the same conditions. Don't impose yours on her.


----------



## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Rational as in "I Love Lucy" isn't a documentary. That kind of normal. "If you don't know I won't tell you" works for TV....in real life not so much.


----------



## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

I believe common law marriages exsit today I know a couple when the man died she got his retirement plan because she lived with him for 17yrs and shared a checking account.


----------



## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Palimony is on a case by case basis. The Lee Marvin case was a watershed event in the US.


----------



## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Runs like dog...
Would you rather have your wife just lay there, read a book, and let you have sex with her? Is that all it's really about? An obligation to do the deed, no matter what? Lots of wives do that. Ask their husbands how much better they feel. And that's what married life was all about 100 years ago. Just fulfil the obligation, and sex was only done to create children. 

Today, however, wives must be willing, excited, initiate it, AND still be willing to fufill the obligation. 

Women must be top dog and dutiful wife all in one. 
Give us a break. Women's lib killed men a long time ago. 
Evolution might take care of it, but in the meantime pick a time century (100 yrs ago or today) and find something you can live with.


----------



## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Oh dear me no. At least not as much......But it's a theoretical argument in my case, at any rate. Nothing real to point to, hasn't been for many many years.


----------



## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

deejov said:


> Would you rather have your wife just lay there, read a book, and let you have sex with her? Is that all it's really about? An obligation to do the deed, no matter what? Lots of wives do that. Ask their husbands how much better they feel. And that's what married life was all about 100 years ago. Just fulfil the obligation, and sex was only done to create children.


Brilliantly put. Even if you_ can _make sex an obligation and somehow force someone to fulfill their so-called "obligation", you _cannot_ make them enjoy it!


----------



## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

The act of marriage effectively transfers at least 50% of a man's present and future property rights to the wife, whether his wife is wonderful or 100% pure evil. In exchange, he gets what, exactly? If marriage places no real obligation on the wife other than to do what she pleases as she pleases, then marriage is a pretty rotten deal for males. I do realize that technically, a court could award a male 50% of the wife's property but as males statistically earn more and statistically lose more in divorce court, my point stands.


----------



## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

unbelievable said:


> The act of marriage effectively transfers at least 50% of a man's present and future property rights to the wife, whether his wife is wonderful or 100% pure evil. In exchange, he gets what, exactly? If marriage places no real obligation on the wife other than to do what she pleases as she pleases, then marriage is a pretty rotten deal for males. I do realize that technically, a court could award a male 50% of the wife's property but as males statistically earn more and statistically lose more in divorce court, my point stands.


As I noted before, some people chose to put "conditions" on their feelings. As in I will only love you if you meet my obligations. If that's how you feel, then you must make this clear to your partner, and engage in a partnership, business, make it legal, and keep emotions out of it. Keep score. Penalties for BOTH sides for not living up to written standards. Men also do as they please.

If this works for you, and gives you security that you are not going to get taken, thats great! I do happen to know a co-worker that has an arranged marriage. Divorce is not a question. Obligations must be upheld. Family gets involved if he says she is not doing her part. This might work better for some men.


----------



## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

I can't promise to feel love but I did promise to act lovingly. My duty to financially support my wife doesn't depend upon my feelings. It is a legal duty and if I don't voluntarily comply, the State of Tennessee will order my compliance and jail me if I refuse.

What, if any, obligation does marriage place upon a wife? I can expect that she will faithfully transfer oxygen into carbon dioxide. Is there some moral or legal obligation beyond that?


----------



## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

unbelievable said:


> I can't promise to feel love but I did promise to act lovingly. My duty to financially support my wife doesn't depend upon my feelings. It is a legal duty and if I don't voluntarily comply, the State of Tennessee will order my compliance and jail me if I refuse.
> 
> What, if any, obligation does marriage place upon a wife? I can expect that she will faithfully transfer oxygen into carbon dioxide. Is there some moral or legal obligation beyond that?


The exact same it places on a man. 
Just because you choose to live in 1911 doesn't mean that is reality. Lifetime alimony is nearly unheard of in most states and more and more women work than ever before and thus alimony has virtually gone away for those women. 
The only thing you would be left with is child support and if you think 20% is a windfall, then it's time for a reality check. I'd rather pay someone 20% than have to foot the near double that it actually costs.
As for loosing half your stuff. Both start with 100%, they split, each walk away with 50% then BOTH PARTIES lost half their stuff.
I have no idea why you continue with your archaic and sexist assumptions that women are some hapless fools who are unable to work and thus must be financially dependant on a man. They plot an scheme to screw men out of money, they sit on a pile of gold after the divorce while the man has his pockets turned inside out. Give me a break.
Oh, and that we all use sex to get what we want. 
Unbelievable indeed.


----------



## allisterfiend (Sep 29, 2011)

Im pretty sure my wife has more to loose than me in a divorce. The fact of the matter is, if we split our assets after 26 years, I would come out smelling like a rose. She would end up giving me half of her retirement fund since I have none, and with that I would end buying her out of her half of the house and buy a brand new vehicle. 

I am trying to work through our dificulties but I am a realist. I am preparing for the worst. I already have a lawer on retainer. I just hope it does not come to that.

Hope is a powerful thing. I hope we can work it out. I hope therapy and counseling works. I hope.

But for the last 5 years I have been building my business and now she is considered the "bread winner". And after a tree fell on my shop 2 years ago and I built a bigger one, my business fell $14,000 in the red. Try digging out of that one. Last year I was $900 in the red. So I am coming back. But on paper, splitting assets, I win.

There is one reason I have not just told her "You want a Divorce? Great, sign here."............I love her.


----------



## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

unbelievable said:


> I can't promise to feel love but I did promise to act lovingly. My duty to financially support my wife doesn't depend upon my feelings. It is a legal duty and if I don't voluntarily comply, the State of Tennessee will order my compliance and jail me if I refuse.
> 
> What, if any, obligation does marriage place upon a wife? I can expect that she will faithfully transfer oxygen into carbon dioxide. Is there some moral or legal obligation beyond that?


No, there is not. 
In an arranged marriage, you would have consequences for not fufulling your obligations. Duties upheld. A modern day marriage does not have these obligations. There are choices. You are free to choose a marriage with obligations, if that works for you. 

What you want does not exist in the common marriage, as being talked about here.


----------



## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

You're right. Never happens. My ex didn't intentionally quit taking her birth control pill without telling me, specifically to get pregnant in order to con me into a marriage and/or 18 years of child support. It never happened, it was all a dream. The Army doesn't bestow upon my spouse 50% of my pension. My wife doesn't lose half of her pension cause she has none and she's not in the Army. That was all a dream, too, because I choose to live in 1911. This forum isn't chock full of men complaining that their wives refuse to have sex. That's all a dream for us Neanderthals. Men and women have equal rights and men end up with child custody 50% of the time! If there's a domestic fight at their residence, women are carted off to jail about half the time. The moon is also made of green cheese and the oceans are filled with champagne.


----------



## allisterfiend (Sep 29, 2011)

unbelievable said:


> You're right. Never happens. My ex didn't intentionally quit taking her birth control pill without telling me, specifically to get pregnant in order to con me into a marriage and/or 18 years of child support. It never happened, it was all a dream. The Army doesn't bestow upon my spouse 50% of my pension. My wife doesn't lose half of her pension cause she has none and she's not in the Army. That was all a dream, too, because I choose to live in 1911. This forum isn't chock full of men complaining that their wives refuse to have sex. That's all a dream for us Neanderthals. Men and women have equal rights and men end up with child custody 50% of the time! If there's a domestic fight at their residence, women are carted off to jail about half the time. The moon is also made of green cheese and the oceans are filled with champagne.


Another great complaint they have, they make less money than men. Well guess what, if there is a fire or your ship is sinking, its women and children first. So personally, I think that worth a buck or two an hour more.


----------



## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

allisterfiend said:


> Another great complaint they have, they make less money than men. Well guess what, if there is a fire or your ship is sinking, its women and children first. So personally, I think that worth a buck or two an hour more.


They get multiple orgasms and they live longer. I'd say that squares it. If I had a working clitoris, I'd never leave the house.


----------



## allisterfiend (Sep 29, 2011)

IanIronwood said:


> They get multiple orgasms and they live longer. I'd say that squares it. If I had a working clitoris, I'd never leave the house.


Never Leave the house? have we met? I been saying that for years.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

unbelievable said:


> You're right. Never happens. My ex didn't intentionally quit taking her birth control pill without telling me, specifically to get pregnant in order to con me into a marriage and/or 18 years of child support. It never happened, it was all a dream. The Army doesn't bestow upon my spouse 50% of my pension. My wife doesn't lose half of her pension cause she has none and she's not in the Army. That was all a dream, too, because I choose to live in 1911. This forum isn't chock full of men complaining that their wives refuse to have sex. That's all a dream for us Neanderthals. Men and women have equal rights and men end up with child custody 50% of the time! If there's a domestic fight at their residence, women are carted off to jail about half the time. The moon is also made of green cheese and the oceans are filled with champagne.


No need to threadjack anymore. There is no reasoning with someone who blames everybody but themselves.


----------



## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

unbelievable said:


> You're right. Never happens. My ex didn't intentionally quit taking her birth control pill without telling me, specifically to get pregnant in order to con me into a marriage and/or 18 years of child support. It never happened, it was all a dream. The Army doesn't bestow upon my spouse 50% of my pension. My wife doesn't lose half of her pension cause she has none and she's not in the Army. That was all a dream, too, because I choose to live in 1911. This forum isn't chock full of men complaining that their wives refuse to have sex. That's all a dream for us Neanderthals. Men and women have equal rights and men end up with child custody 50% of the time! If there's a domestic fight at their residence, women are carted off to jail about half the time. The moon is also made of green cheese and the oceans are filled with champagne.


I"m not sure what you mean? You got taken, and I agree with you... the modern marriage has no obligations or consequences in theory, if behavior does not have consequences.

That theory, though... can be enlightened. People who come here, may learn something about themselves. They may man up, or women may get some insight, and hopefully things will be better. 

Lots of men on here being "taken" ? I hope these men are learning how to get out of that situation? By saying their wives have an obligation to have sex? I don't agree. They DO have an obligation to work on the relationship, which should lead to sex. But you cannot force anyone to have sex with you.
If you man up and speak your expectations, and she does not comply with you, she simply doesn't respect you. Choose better next time.


----------



## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Over the last four-five decades, marriage rates have drastically declined. Women and kids in poverty have increased greatly. Juvenile delinquency has increased dramatically while educational achievement has taken a nosedive. This "modern" marriage concept may have no obligations but it certainly has plenty of consequences. Y'all can have it. I'll stay in the stone age.


----------



## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

unbelievable said:


> Over the last four-five decades, marriage rates have drastically declined. Women and kids in poverty have increased greatly. Juvenile delinquency has increased dramatically while educational achievement has taken a nosedive. This "modern" marriage concept may have no obligations but it certainly has plenty of consequences. Y'all can have it. I'll stay in the stone age.


If you wanted a life that was all about rules, obligations and duty, you screwed up. You ought to have joined the army. The army will provide exactly what you want. Marriage, where people have different goals, expectations, aspirations and motivations and where no one gets beasted around the square if they fail to comply with the sergeant-major's rules seems a bit too free-form for you.

For the record, I don't think the stone age would suit you. Probably the eighteenth / nineteenth century, when wives were still considered property seems more appropriate.


----------



## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

unbelievable said:


> Over the last four-five decades, marriage rates have drastically declined. Women and kids in poverty have increased greatly. Juvenile delinquency has increased dramatically while educational achievement has taken a nosedive. This "modern" marriage concept may have no obligations but it certainly has plenty of consequences. Y'all can have it. I'll stay in the stone age.


This reminds me of the marriage license "laugh" that we share sometimes. In order to get a civil marriage license in our province, we both had to read a little paragraph and "swear" upon it, and it had a sentence in there that you had to say you understood that you did not own the other person. We thought that was kind of funny at the time, and wondered why it was even there! Like someone had legally challenged it at one point so now the disclaimer was added ha ha.

Also, where I live... you must be separated for at least one year before you can get a divorce, and if you have kids, you must go to counselling as well. I think the courts acknowledge it, a bit. At least where I live. You will get told "try to work out your differences" by a judge first. Yes, there are uncontested divorces here too. If both parties agree to everything with or without a lawyer, and a simple signature in front of a judge. Not sure that happens very often. 

unbelieveable, I'm not aware of your whole story, but I'm not one to judge. At least you know what you want. There is nothing wrong with that. It's just not a common theory. But out of curiousity... do you have an obligation marriage, and does it work for you? Or is this something you want?


----------



## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

I don't believe one can have a real marriage without obligations and responsibilities. An arrangement where both parties are free to do whatever they want wouldn't require a ceremony and wouldn't mean anything. I have obligations to my kids, to my dogs, to my employer, too. I don't see them as restrictive but as indications that people depend on me.


----------



## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

unbelievable said:


> I don't see them as restrictive but as indications that people depend on me.


So the bottom line is partners should have sex with one another to demonstrate they depend on one another?

So one partner should accept something they don't want from the other to demonstrate they are dependent on the other partner for something they aren't interested in?:scratchhead:


----------



## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

The bottom line is a spouse should want to have sex with there parten because it makes them happy to make the other spouse happy.


----------



## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

the guy said:


> The bottom line is a spouse should want to have sex with there parten because it makes them happy to make the other spouse happy.


Anything where you depend on expecting someone else to do something they can't be bothered with just because you do has a very short shelf life.

Most people don't get a kick out of doing something they don't like simply because it makes someone else happy. They put up with it, but it gradually become more and more forced, more and more grudging. You can (just about) obligate or guilt someone into doing it, but if their heart isn't in it, if they don't enjoy it, you can't make them like it.


----------



## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Never underestimate the joy your partner feels when he or she is making you as miserable as they are.


----------



## CupOJoe (Sep 28, 2011)

I think many people are quick to jump on Unbelievable for what they see as his backwards views but consider some of the reasoning behind it...

In general, 2 people who love each other are "supposed to" get married. That is an age old concept in all cultures that still hasn't changed to this day. Sure there are people who disagree and don't follow that, but overall as a society that is still the norm. In the old days, there were expectations and obligations with marriage. Minimally, the man was _expected and obligated_ to work to provide for his wife and kids as well as protect them from dangers, and the woman was _expected and obligated_ to bear kids, raise them, and keep the husband satisfied with sex. As archaic and ass-backwards as that sounds it was recognized that sex was and is a primal urge and need for men and needed to be fulfilled. Regardless of the woman's feelings or take at that time, and regardless of how wrong you may feel that is now, women and society as a whole accepted that during those times without much question. As society has evolved these roles have changed drastically and with it the obligations. As women gained more liberties, rights, and opportunities to do the same things that men did, this age-old norm of _obligations_ of marriage started shifting. Women weren't _obligated _to do anything anymore because, outside of bearing kids, the fine line between the roles of men and women have blurred. Nowadays women are just as busy and powerful and can be equal or even greater providers. Things like day care and nannies even took away much of the obligation of raising kids for those that choose to use them. Society also doesn't need men to be protectors in the same way they used to. The advent of all these changes took away the _obligations _of marriage, however many _expectations _remained. For example, even though it is not necessary anymore (and not an obligation), overall men are still _expected_ to be the "breadwinner" and because of this, men feel that there should be some expectations in return. Any man viewing marriage in a way that even remotely resembles the old days is immediately chastised even though the view of modern marriage has been around a fraction of the time of the archaic view of marriage and the woman's role has shifted far more drastically than the man's. You can't take thousands of years of thinking out a man's brain in a relatively minuscule amount of time. That is like asking many woman to change the view of "2 people who love each other are 'supposed to' get married" which is a similarly old-fashioned paradigm. In modern marriage where _obligation_ has been completely removed, is it unreasonable to still have some _expectations_? Is it wrong for Unbelievable or myself to have an expectation of sex from our wives in the absence of obligation? Is it wrong for our wives to have some expectations of us back? If expectations should be removed from marriage along with obligation, marriage as an institution ceases to become much more than 2 people living together to share resources and possibly reproduce.


----------



## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Why do I still have to kill the spiders in my house?


----------



## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Cheers! It is NOT wrong, and you guys are right!
Depends on how you read it, though. 
Expectations that differences will not be held in the bedroom.
I do not believe it is right to with-hold sex because of an unspoken grudge or resentment.

And I will get blasted for this... but maybe some women should take the women's lib aspect a tiny bit further. And admit that putting your resentments for the day aside and just getting physcially intimate does make a difference. In your mentality. In your outlook. It helps to relieve stress. It is an act of affection.
3 hours after dinner... You would not deny your child a bedtime story and a hug because they didn't eat their dinner? Would you refuse to talk to them if you were mad at them? No, the appropriate discipline is not refusing affection. (okay, maybe you do... but not something I would agree is productive)

"You should never go to bed mad". And you should never refuse affection. It's not a punishment. It's a prvilege. 

Have sex when you are full of resentment? Gawd no.
Speak up and give your spouse the chance to correct the action.

Spouse asks for sex and you are "not in the mood" because of resentment? Then say why you are not in the mood. 

If he gets tired of the constant reasons why you are not happy, at least he's not left in the dark. Then it's his choice. Make you happy and you will be in the mood, or go without.


----------



## Nikki1023 (Sep 24, 2011)

Runs like Dog said:


> Never underestimate the joy your partner feels when he or she is making you as miserable as they are.


:iagree:



IanIronwood said:


> They get multiple orgasms and they live longer. I'd say that squares it. If I had a working clitoris, I'd never leave the house.


Uh oh, now your catching on to why we still want to stay at home after the kids are in school all day


----------



## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

If men are expected to be the provider and the woman is expected to give sex in return, that isn't marriage. That's prostitution. 
I have no issue with sex whatsoever but if my husband had the mindset that because he earns 5 times what I do he is "expecting" sex from me due to that, no way would I want sex with him and no way would I NOT view that as money for sex.
Change your mindset, change your sex life.


----------



## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

Does anyone else see how absurd this thread has become?

Also, doesn't it seem kind of antiquated to be railing about women's lib in 2011?

I'm thinking political agendas don't enhance the interactions of two people.

It gets down to healthy communication and an assessment of physical and mental health of all involved.


----------



## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Sawney Beane said:


> So the bottom line is partners should have sex with one another to demonstrate they depend on one another?
> 
> So one partner should accept something they don't want from the other to demonstrate they are dependent on the other partner for something they aren't interested in?:scratchhead:


A bizarre concept, I'm sure, but spouses should attend to each others' needs because they value the success of their marriage and their family above their own immediate, selfish concerns.


----------



## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> If men are expected to be the provider and the woman is expected to give sex in return, that isn't marriage. That's prostitution.
> I have no issue with sex whatsoever but if my husband had the mindset that because he earns 5 times what I do he is "expecting" sex from me due to that, no way would I want sex with him and no way would I NOT view that as money for sex.
> Change your mindset, change your sex life.


The sex-for-security swap is the foundation of human mating. You can pretty it up with a lot of romance and marriage counseling, but that's how, in reality, things work. We try to justify it with all sorts of pretty cultural institutions, sure. But note how few women say "Wow, he's got no education, no skills, and no prospects but . . . what a catch!" Or how few guys say, "Sure, she doesn't want to have sex, but I can't wait to put a ring on her finger!" Sex and security are the two primary drives behind male and female mating patterns, respectively. It might be unromantic . . . but it is no less untrue.

And prostitution is fee-for-service, not an open-ended exclusive contract. There is a difference. Believe me, if most men broke down how much each marital interlude cost them in resources, compared to how much they would have spent on a prostitute for the same interludes, I don't doubt that they would be very, very surprised at the result.


----------



## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

If sex in marriage is prostitution, then going to work and bringing a check home is slavery. Receiving benefits without providing reciprocity is fraud, theft, and exploitation. Not sure how someone could find withholding sex to be morally superior to prostitution. At least a prostitute actively participates in the relationship.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

IanIronwood said:


> The sex-for-security swap is the foundation of human mating. You can pretty it up with a lot of romance and marriage counseling, but that's how, in reality, things work. We try to justify it with all sorts of pretty cultural institutions, sure. But note how few women say "Wow, he's got no education, no skills, and no prospects but . . . what a catch!" Or how few guys say, "Sure, she doesn't want to have sex, but I can't wait to put a ring on her finger!" Sex and security are the two primary drives behind male and female mating patterns, respectively. It might be unromantic . . . but it is no less untrue.
> 
> And prostitution is fee-for-service, not an open-ended exclusive contract. There is a difference. Believe me, if most men broke down how much each marital interlude cost them in resources, compared to how much they would have spent on a prostitute for the same interludes, I don't doubt that they would be very, very surprised at the result.


Oh Ian, comparing sex with your wife and a prostitute in monetary terms. No wonder us women just swoon over you.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

unbelievable said:


> If sex in marriage is prostitution, then going to work and bringing a check home is slavery. Receiving benefits without providing reciprocity is fraud, theft, and exploitation. Not sure how someone could find withholding sex to be morally superior to prostitution. At least a prostitute actively participates in the relationship.


You twisted my words, as usual. I never said sex in marriage is prostitution. What I said was that if you think that sex is expected for money brought home, that is prostitution.

Michzz was right. Things are getting ridiculous.

OP, I wish you luck. If your mindset changed, you would find improvement in many areas of your life.


----------



## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Oh Ian, comparing sex with your wife and a prostitute in monetary terms. No wonder us women just swoon over you.


Not my wife -- she appreciates our relationship more than that, and we negotiated a mutually-agreeable contract before we got married. You were the one who compared marital sex with prostitution. I was just pointing out that when you look at it in those terms, the average guy would spend far less on a prostitute than he would on all the resources necessary to keep and maintain a wife . . . who gives him no assurances that she'll have any kind of sex with him.

And that's the interesting thing about the mating game right now. For the last forty years women have enjoyed both reproductive control, and sexual control. Now with the internet, Craig's list, ****** *******, private escorts, et. al. it is quite possible for a single man to enjoy more sex with a wide variety of women far less expensively than he could by getting married. 

Of course, the argument runs, the man gets more _value_ for his investment in marriage. He gets a life partner, a helpmate, a possible mother of his children, a loving, affectionate woman who devotes her life to his happiness . . . 

. . . which is why there's no reason for a website like TAM, right? Because all these folks are happily married? 

When you look at the statistics, it's hard to make the case for a man to get married in the first place. Unless a truly extraordinary partner is involved, on paper the dude usually comes out worse-off than he would be if he had avoided it. There's a reason so many gay dudes have a lot of expendable income.


----------



## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> You twisted my words, as usual. I never said sex in marriage is prostitution. What I said was that if you think that sex is expected for money brought home, that is prostitution.
> 
> Michzz was right. Things are getting ridiculous.
> 
> OP, I wish you luck. If your mindset changed, you would find improvement in many areas of your life.


Curious: if the money stopped coming home, would the sex continue?

'Cause that's happening a lot right now. And no, my unemployed friends aren't getting laid like fiends. They're experiencing marital difficulties of the highest order. It might not be prostitution, but there is definitely a close relation between sex and security in any marriage.


----------



## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

@ OP - Have you given up on your thread? 

Have you made any decisions about what you are going to do? You have not posted any updates.


----------



## CupOJoe (Sep 28, 2011)

> Why do I still have to kill the spiders in my house?


Who says you have to? Just leave the spider there and I guarantee you at least 1 good hour of entertaining acrobatics you didn't think she was capable of lol.

Therealbrighteyes and michzz, if your comments are about my last post then you either completely got the point wrong or just read into it what you wanted to see. Not railing about women's lib at all, and most definitely not saying men are expected to be the provider and the woman is expected to give sex in return. However, I do agree that this thread has become a bit absurd so I would like to take it back to the original reason I posted it in the first place and continue to get everyone's take on how my situation is developing as Enchantment asked...

So I have not been able to have "the conversation" with my wife yet because we were away this whole weekend for a friend's wedding and I didn't think that would be a good time to bring this up. We got to the hotel the night before the wedding, and decided to take a trip to the nearby Walmart to get some snacks with a bunch of our friends that were also there. As we're walking by the different aisles, we passed the condom aisle and all of a sudden my wife says "hey, since I'm going off the pill we're gonna need those again soon, might as well grab a box now" out loud in front of all our friends. I was shocked to say the least, too shocked to even say anything. Many thoughts were running through my head. Does she not realize that it has been 3 months since we last had sex and only about 4 or 5 times in all of 2011? Does she not realize that she tries to avoid sex as much as possible and emotionally shuts herself off when I try? To make this comment out loud really contradicted how her nature has been. Of course our friends heard this and started making jokes like "ooooh, we know which room is gonna be loud tonight!" and "don't miss the wedding going through that entire box of condoms you lovebirds!". Normally I am a lighthearted person and can roll with the punches without getting rattled easily, but honestly this really affected me. I laughed off the jokes, but inside I couldn't help but feel sad and depressed after this. It really bothered me that we are always viewed by others as this perfect couple who can't keep their hands off each other, but in reality it is the opposite. The rest of the night I faked having fun but couldn't get this out of my mind. That was the first of 3 nights in the hotel room, and we never had sex. Throughout the weekend I touched her and hugged her and we danced closely a lot at the wedding reception and gazed into each others eyes, but I really didn't try to initiate sex. I thought about telling her that the condom comment really bothered me, but I didn't want to ruin what was otherwise a fun and carefree weekend for her. I have had it in my mind since first posting here that in part our problems may be stemming from resentment building over the fact that she wants kids now and I want to wait a couple years. If that is so, why would she all of a sudden voluntarily decide we should go back to using condoms, especially since she always said she doesn't like condoms? I thought I was getting a clearer picture of all this, but now it seems a little cloudy again.


----------



## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

CupOJoe said:


> Who says you have to? Just leave the spider there and I guarantee you at least 1 good hour of entertaining acrobatics you didn't think she was capable of lol.
> 
> Therealbrighteyes and michzz, if your comments are about my last post then you either completely got the point wrong or just read into it what you wanted to see. Not railing about women's lib at all, and most definitely not saying men are expected to be the provider and the woman is expected to give sex in return. However, I do agree that this thread has become a bit absurd so I would like to take it back to the original reason I posted it in the first place and continue to get everyone's take on how my situation is developing as Enchantment asked...
> 
> So I have not been able to have "the conversation" with my wife yet because we were away this whole weekend for a friend's wedding and I didn't think that would be a good time to bring this up. We got to the hotel the night before the wedding, and decided to take a trip to the nearby Walmart to get some snacks with a bunch of our friends that were also there. As we're walking by the different aisles, we passed the condom aisle and all of a sudden my wife says "hey, since I'm going off the pill we're gonna need those again soon, might as well grab a box now" out loud in front of all our friends. I was shocked to say the least, too shocked to even say anything. Many thoughts were running through my head. Does she not realize that it has been 3 months since we last had sex and only about 4 or 5 times in all of 2011? Does she not realize that she tries to avoid sex as much as possible and emotionally shuts herself off when I try? To make this comment out loud really contradicted how her nature has been. Of course our friends heard this and started making jokes like "ooooh, we know which room is gonna be loud tonight!" and "don't miss the wedding going through that entire box of condoms you lovebirds!". Normally I am a lighthearted person and can roll with the punches without getting rattled easily, but honestly this really affected me. I laughed off the jokes, but inside I couldn't help but feel sad and depressed after this. It really bothered me that we are always viewed by others as this perfect couple who can't keep their hands off each other, but in reality it is the opposite. The rest of the night I faked having fun but couldn't get this out of my mind. That was the first of 3 nights in the hotel room, and we never had sex. Throughout the weekend I touched her and hugged her and we danced closely a lot at the wedding reception and gazed into each others eyes, but I really didn't try to initiate sex. I thought about telling her that the condom comment really bothered me, but I didn't want to ruin what was otherwise a fun and carefree weekend for her. I have had it in my mind since first posting here that in part our problems may be stemming from resentment building over the fact that she wants kids now and I want to wait a couple years. If that is so, why would she all of a sudden voluntarily decide we should go back to using condoms, especially since she always said she doesn't like condoms? I thought I was getting a clearer picture of all this, but now it seems a little cloudy again.


Because she can't get "accidentally" pregnant on the pill, whereas she can arrange to with condoms. Now that she has your sex life well and truly under control, she figures she can exercise her reproductive control, too. You'll see a small increase in her libido as the hormones leave, and possibly a flurry of sexual activity that will almost convince you that things are "normal" again, but don't let it fool you. 

You do need to have the talk, and you do need to. But I'd wait until the post-wedding glow fades -- weddings do weird things to a woman's psychology.

But then you have to have The Talk. Lay out your feelings. Hear what she has to say. And make sure she knows you're contemplating walking away from the table. It's amazing how well that can clarify a situation in a woman's mind.


----------



## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

CupOJoe said:


> Normally I am a lighthearted person and can roll with the punches without getting rattled easily, but honestly this really affected me. I laughed off the jokes, but inside I couldn't help but feel sad and depressed after this. It really bothered me that we are always viewed by others as this perfect couple who can't keep their hands off each other, but in reality it is the opposite.


What you have to realize is that the lack of sex is important to you on a deep emotional level. That is why you are sad and depressed when presented with a scenario of what "could be" (i.e. a brazenly sexual wife). You really have to elevate the importance of lack of sex and ignore all the posts telling you you are treating your wife like a prostitute. You are suffering real emotional pain because your primary need in your marriage is not being met. And don't let your mind play tricks on you thinking that everything is ok because in all other ways you have a great marriage. Be real with yourself about the level of emotional unhappiness you have today, and be real with contemplating 30 more years of it.

What you have to know that bringing a child into a marriage where the father is emotionally suffering in this way is a tragic mistake.

There are 10,000 reasons why your wife wont' have sex and 10,000 theories about why she would want you to buy condoms. But you have to ignore all that and realize in your heart that you deserve and need a sexual marriage and that it would be very wrong to bring a child into your marriage given the state of it. 

What I would say if I were you... that you cannot endure a sexless marriage... you would be willing to have a child today if the marriage were functioning, but at this point you cannot agree to bring a child into a non functioning marriage. That we both need to work on whatever it is that is preventing our marriage from being sexual, and that you will work as hard as possible to figure out whatever you are doing to contribute to this, as long as she is willing to do the same. And that once we have a functioning marriage for a period of time such as 12 months you are willing to try for a child. Then offer her some time to think whether she wants to go on this journey with you, or not. 

You cannot approach this conversation in a needy or weak way.
You also have to be open to the idea that you are not meeting her primary need in the marriage as a contributor to why she is not meeting yours.


----------



## CupOJoe (Sep 28, 2011)

Thank you Hicks, that is very good advice, and I will definitely keep it in mind for my talk with her. I'm thinking I will wait a few days for The Talk because right now she does seem to have this strange post-wedding glow from the weekend as IanIronwood pointed out. It probably seems like I'm stalling on The Talk, and admittedly I probably am looking for reasons to stall, but it seems so hard to find the right time to bring this conversation up. No matter what it will effect that day, that week, other events we go to together soon, and our entire relationship, since depending on her reaction and our feelings post-talk, I don't know how we'll be acting around each other and it may get awkward around family/friends and even each other. I know when I have The Talk I can be strong and not appear needy or weak, but thinking about bringing the conversation up does make me feel queasy.


----------



## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

CupOJoe said:


> Thank you Hicks, that is very good advice, and I will definitely keep it in mind for my talk with her. I'm thinking I will wait a few days for The Talk because right now she does seem to have this strange post-wedding glow from the weekend as IanIronwood pointed out. It probably seems like I'm stalling on The Talk, and admittedly I probably am looking for reasons to stall, but it seems so hard to find the right time to bring this conversation up. No matter what it will effect that day, that week, other events we go to together soon, and our entire relationship, since depending on her reaction and our feelings post-talk, I don't know how we'll be acting around each other and it may get awkward around family/friends and even each other. I know when I have The Talk I can be strong and not appear needy or weak, but thinking about bringing the conversation up does make me feel queasy.


My advice WATCH WHAT YOU SAY during the talk, they will throw it back at you. They hear things entirely different that what you mean... very defensive. they don't want to be told they are not doing things right in a relationship.

My situation is two years now. I know.


"I've never been fully satisfied in our sex life" while true meant to her why bother. had to back track big time to explain further during the next talk


----------



## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

CupOJoe said:


> Thank you Hicks, that is very good advice, and I will definitely keep it in mind for my talk with her. I'm thinking I will wait a few days for The Talk because right now she does seem to have this strange post-wedding glow from the weekend as IanIronwood pointed out. It probably seems like I'm stalling on The Talk, and admittedly I probably am looking for reasons to stall, but it seems so hard to find the right time to bring this conversation up. No matter what it will effect that day, that week, other events we go to together soon, and our entire relationship, since depending on her reaction and our feelings post-talk, I don't know how we'll be acting around each other and it may get awkward around family/friends and even each other. I know when I have The Talk I can be strong and not appear needy or weak, but thinking about bringing the conversation up does make me feel queasy.


Dude, a true warrior chooses the time and place of his battles. Don't do it until you know what you're going to say and how you are going to say it. Don't let the conversation wander off-topic into other issues, keep it focused on this. Make it an evening when you have nothing else planned, unplug the phone, turn off the cell, and turn off the computer. If you think it's too difficult to handle at home (which might be perceived as an attack) then do it in some place neutral, like a restaurant. And when you do have the talk, make sure you are dressed to kill. Okay, at least maim. But make sure you look good. You need to remind her what she might lose.

And yes, it will make you feel queasy. You are basically standing up for your interests and asking her to rise to the occasion. You are, in effect, risking everything you have on this, and that's OK . . . BECAUSE THIS IS FRACKING IMPORTANT! TO YOU! If she's not into the marriage 100%, there's no reason why you should be in it 110%. 

Don't forget that. If she loves you and values you, she will listen attentively and give a lot of thought to what you have to say. And if she doesn't . . . well, then you've learned something, haven't you? Start dividing up the CDs and looking for an apartment. Maybe when she starts seeing cardboard boxes with your stuff ready to move, maybe she'll start taking you seriously.


----------



## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

IanIronwood said:


> Dude, a true warrior chooses the time and place of his battles. Don't do it until you know what you're going to say and how you are going to say it. Don't let the conversation wander off-topic into other issues, keep it focused on this. Make it an evening when you have nothing else planned, unplug the phone, turn off the cell, and turn off the computer. If you think it's too difficult to handle at home (which might be perceived as an attack) then do it in some place neutral, like a restaurant. And when you do have the talk, make sure you are dressed to kill. Okay, at least maim. But make sure you look good. You need to remind her what she might lose.
> 
> And yes, it will make you feel queasy. You are basically standing up for your interests and asking her to rise to the occasion. You are, in effect, risking everything you have on this, and that's OK . . . BECAUSE THIS IS FRACKING IMPORTANT! TO YOU! If she's not into the marriage 100%, there's no reason why you should be in it 110%.
> 
> Don't forget that. If she loves you and values you, she will listen attentively and give a lot of thought to what you have to say. And if she doesn't . . . well, then you've learned something, haven't you? Start dividing up the CDs and looking for an apartment. Maybe when she starts seeing cardboard boxes with your stuff ready to move, maybe she'll start taking you seriously.


We are so in the same boat.... it sucks at least you've had sex twice as much as I have in 2011!

I wrote mine a letter and said we have to discuss us EVERY month until we see where theis is going (RESOLVED or DIVORCED)

She so far is nicer.... This has been going on TWO YEARS.

Good Luck!

At least mine listened intently and saved the letter. We'll see.
My feeling is she's going to be somewhat motivated to get to the point where we stop discussing it EVERY MONTH until a resolution occurs one way or another.

I will not allow status quo! It takes up too much of my brain power away thinking about it constantly.


----------



## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Trying2figureitout said:


> My advice WATCH WHAT YOU SAY during the talk, they will throw it back at you. They hear things entirely different that what you mean... very defensive. they don't want to be told they are not doing things right in a relationship.
> 
> My situation is two years now. I know.
> 
> ...


I agree.. Watch what you say. It's hard for someone to get defensive when you say that a sexless marriage is a non functional marriage.

Key to solving your problem is you taking ownership for doing any and all that you can do to improve yourself and making her take ownership for improving her self. It always fails when you "suggest" how she should fix herself (therapy, doctor, hormones). You have to let her get there through her own process.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Joe,
The key here is to realize there are 3 possible outcomes here:
1. Success
2. Failure but you stay married but basically miserable and celibate
3. Divorce 

Given how high the stakes are, you need to write a script - memorize it - practice it - and use it. The approach below is intended to maximize the likelihood of 1. There are an infinite number of ways to do this. Pick one and use it. 

For context I have been happily married for 22 years. My W is LD and I am HD. We/she made it work by being very honest with me about her turn ons/turn offs AND by teaching me how to get her in the mood when she starts out in neutral. 

This last bit is truly the key to our whole marriage. My W was likely "in the mood" maybe 3 days a month. If her approach had been that those were the only days she would consider sex we would be divorced. Instead her approach was completely different. Unless she had a really bad day, she was ok with me getting her in the mood. But all of that was based on two things. She knew that a good sex life was necessary for a healthy marriage. And she respected me as a great partner and wanted me to be happy. Maybe your W just needs to be willing to teach you how to gradually get her aroused. Or maybe it is a lot more complicated than that. 


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I really think the only possible shot you have at fixing a SM is to truly understand WHY you are being refused. Focusing on "having sex" or persuading your partner to have sex, when you don't even know why they don't want to, is a big mistake because it is NOT sustainable. If however you can really find out WHY they dislike sex with you, you will at least know whether or not you have a prayer of fixing it.

What I describe below is actually very hard to execute, but the approach itself is not complicated. It is a given you need to pick a time/place where you won't have interruptions. Before you start prepare yourself mentally/emotionally. The reason this is going to be SO DIFFICULT is that your refuser is going to feel:
- Anxious or possibly even frightened
- Fear often expresses as anger
- Their goal is going to be to put all the blame on you, but not typically in a manner that lends itself to a "solution".
- They generally do NOT want to be specific, certainly not specific about intimate desire related thoughts, feelings, and preferences

The ideal "affect" for this conversation is "calm and open minded", the focus is on gaining a greater understanding of your partner, and also FIRM and FOCUSED. Determined to obtain that understanding even if it is uncomfortable. When she gets angry or tries to shut the conversation down you need to stay calm and let her know that "avoidance" is not acceptable to you. That you ALREADY KNOW she doesn't like having sex with you and are willing to here some hard and critical comments to improve the marriage. 

>>>>>>> you to her
1. I know you realize how distressed I am about our lack of sex life. Lets not spend a lot of time talking about how I feel, since that isn't going to produce a good result or a fair one. At best I might cause you to feel guilty enough to connect with me a few times purely out of guilt, but that outcome isn't healthy or fair to either of us. At worst it is just going to make both of us angry or sad or both. So lets just acknowledge that this is a huge issue to me and move on. AND YOU NEED TO FORCE AN ACKNOWLEDGEMENT OF THIS - SIMPLY TO AVOID LATER PSYCHO CONVERSATIONS WHERE YOU ARE TOLD THEY DIDN'T UNDERSTAND HOW MUCH THIS WAS TROUBLING YOU.

If you get resistance on obtaining that acknowledgement, there is a way to make it all but impossible for your refuser to skip this step. And that can be done like this:
a. You need to understand that I am NOT asking you to accept some/much/all the blame for this. In fact recognizing that this is really hurting me does not imply you have ANY blame for the situation. It is not step one in blaming you for anything. It is however step 1 in you conveying that you hear and understand me.
b. Given that - I am simply asking you to acknowledge that you understand how much this hurts ME.

If you cannot get this - it is pointless to proceed. You are dealing with someone who either lacks a sense of fairness or who doesn't respect you enough to even acknowledge your feelings. If you choose to remain with this person, you should calibrate your expectations accordingly.

Assuming you were able to get acknowledgement that this is a BIG issue to you - you may proceed. And do not for a second lose sight of how important that is. The refusers explicit acknowledgement of your pain is the emotional fuel/lever for the entire rest of the talk. If you allow them to minimize your pain/your needs, it becomes VERY easy for them to rationalize not being cooperative, not being willing to put much effort into the rest of the discussion. If you allow them to get away with comments like "its always about sex with you" you are doomed. You need to convey 

"This is entirely about one thing and only one thing. This is what I need to FEEL loved, respected and important to you." 


2. I accept (you need to mask your anger/resentment/frustration here or you are fuvked) neither of us directly controls our feelings of desire/arousal. And I recognize that somehow that process - is somewhat "autonomic" - like our heart rate. We don't directly control our heart rate any more than our "desire" level.

Pause here and get them to react - if need be ask if this makes any sense. If you want someone to open up, first you have to make them feel safe. The basis for comparing desire to heart rate is we DON'T have direct control of either, but have huge indirect control of both. If they ask what this has to do with anything - just ask them to bear with you.

3. So I don't blame you/hold you responsible for not automatically feeling desire for me "you need to accept and believe this because ultimately it IS true". What I DO hold you responsible for is TELLING ME what turns you on and off. Because I thought I knew but clearly I don't understand you as well as I need to.

4. I need you to take a leap of faith here and trust me. I need to know you can be honest with me about what triggers and what kills, your desires. I wish I could read your mind but I can't. I promise not to get defensive or complain, as long as YOU are talking about factors that effect desire, not general purpose things like "I wish you did more housework".

The response you get to (4) will be very helpful ONLY IF two things are true. Your refuser actually believes that these things are "fixable" and they believe you will not erupt if you don't like what you hear.

If you sense they are "on the fence" you may be able to tilt them over the edge by asking very specific questions. Only you will know what to ask - I throw some out below just as an example.
- Forget about me for the moment, what stuff in general gets you going? I used to think that watching a racy movie got you hot, has that changed?
- Is there certain stuff you like to read - vampire stories - whatever - that is a turn on?

As for me - I just need you to help me out. Forget about hurting my feelings - be raw.
- Am I too thin, to fat
- Am I too emotional, not emotional enough
- Do I not last long enough when we have intercourse
- Am I too gentle, too rough, too boring to kinky? TELL ME
- Talk to me - tell me what the deal is

The interesting thing about 4 is this. The more anxious and avoidant they become when you are pressing for answers, the more likely that THEY believe the desire problem is not fixable.

Blocking techniques all fall into one of four categories:
- Stating that they simply "don't know" what turns them on. (this is where you have to start deciding how much pressure you want to apply)

- Hostile silence (your response: You seem angry, why is that? I am the one who is feeling rejected and unloved, all I am doing is trying to understand WHY, how come that is making you angry?)

- Describing the MYTHICAL PERFECT ENVIRONMENT. If only YOU could remove all stressors and distractions from my life I might be able to have sex with you.
- Asking for an unspecified amount of additional time to get over:
a. Being mad at you about something that is a fabricated construct to avoid sex
b. The death of a parent, a third cousin by marriage, the pet goldfish they brought home from the fish store that died after 2 days

It is easier to not get angry if you recognize the type of blocking being used.







CupOJoe said:


> Thank you Hicks, that is very good advice, and I will definitely keep it in mind for my talk with her. I'm thinking I will wait a few days for The Talk because right now she does seem to have this strange post-wedding glow from the weekend as IanIronwood pointed out. It probably seems like I'm stalling on The Talk, and admittedly I probably am looking for reasons to stall, but it seems so hard to find the right time to bring this conversation up. No matter what it will effect that day, that week, other events we go to together soon, and our entire relationship, since depending on her reaction and our feelings post-talk, I don't know how we'll be acting around each other and it may get awkward around family/friends and even each other. I know when I have The Talk I can be strong and not appear needy or weak, but thinking about bringing the conversation up does make me feel queasy.


----------



## Michelle27 (Nov 8, 2010)

Mem, that was AMAZING advice. I am on the other side of the problem as I see it being faced by Joe here. This sort of approach may have fixed my lack of desire years ago. And while in my case, it's not so much about the details of sex as much as the perceived expectations and resentments surrounding this and other parts of my marriage. But this would at least open the door to the dialogue that may get to the bottom of the real problem as opposed to what many women (me included) cloud sexual problems with. I am very impressed.


----------



## CupOJoe (Sep 28, 2011)

MEM11363, thank you very much for the great advice, I think that is exactly what I needed, some kind of framework on how to approach and structure this conversation. I'm going to spend the next few days making my "script" and getting as prepared as possible.


----------



## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

I would be careful with that script.
Your wife's lack of desire is caused outside the bedroom, not inside it.
Those "general things" like help out with the housework are actually quite crucial. #1, 2, 3 are all good... but #4 is where you will get yourself in trouble. She will feel blamed.


----------



## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

Joe....I'm convinced that talking doesn't really help in the short-term but may help long-term just be careful what you say they will see it as an attack regardless but you have to get your side in so they know what you expect out of the marriage. I've done so many times and all I think it does is remind her short-term is that we have an issue that she right now isn't capable of solving (part inaction, part acceptance of status-quo, part payback) . I think they will help once we solve the issue to set new boundaries I'm sure neither of us want to go through this again. It's going to have to be a win-win scenario, she needs to think she won for this to be resolved. Not forced to change quickly. I need a regular fun sex life without long lapses once we solve this.

I know the little things I did put a wall around her heart and that it's going to take time and action to break that down. The question is how long can I continue to do everything right and see seemingly no real changes. It's tough and takes up most of my thought process each day, I just want it fixed but this issue need time... no quick fix is in the cards unfortunately. Actually there are some changes... she now listens better, she thanks me more, not as many to-do lists, she has tried to do things out of character like sending me to an NFL game! Just not the BIG change... or Love language I Want desperately. But changes have occurred over the past two years. I guess that her "trying" to deal with this.

We get along great otherwise but there is the big elephant in the room....always.

Laying off for long 6mo without discussion periods (twice)... hasn't worked but I think it's a necessity at different points.
Talking, letters ,apologizing... hasn't worked yet.

Consistent actions... has worked somewhat and I believe is major part the solution. LISTEN TO HER!
Time... works

It's been two years of a sexless existence (5-2010 2-2011)
She says she's "trying" it's mostly her feelings. it's not about me anymore. It's all HER and she knows it.

My last hope (at year two, just very recently) was to put her on notice that at this point we are going one of two directions... closer or farther apart up to divorce and that he past two years were unacceptable to both of us since neither of us was completely happy and it affected our marriage. I won't let this thing drag on indefinitely two years is plenty of time to see some improvements IMO. I think the only reason this will be effective is due to he two years of my new behaviors in place. I show great consistency I think she knows the changes are permanent. It's all right smack in her lap month after month. My hope is she finds a way to get us fully happy and end these talks. I told her that we'll divorce when I feel she would be happier without me and only then. Sex means she's happy with me and wants to be with me , holding back (pushing me away repeatedly) is the opposite so there is a built in criteria in that statement for down the road if things go the wrong direction. It's in her court.

Every month we mutually agreed (BIG WIN) to talk about us and our family... every month until we solve this one way or another. We won't talk about the past but just he current month and any good or bad that happened plus future plans and dreams. At least this will keep the issues at the forefront. It's our last hope. I've tried everything else it seems. These monthly talks will end either when we both report happiness or we divorce. I don't think I could have done this a year ago... but now it just might work I've already seen nice positive changes in her. Almost as if the switch might have flipped on again...but the light is still flickering like some do before they shine brightly. 

We will find pretty quick where we are heading... change will happen one way or the other. What gets measured gets done (as in any situation)! At least it'll be a monthly reminder if sex and intimacy were MIA.... eventually she "should" see the light. I plan to keep these discussions light and fun. No heavy baggage but they will serve as a constant reminder no more hiding!

I feel for my wife and I'm sure she struggles with this just like I do. I was not a perfect husband but I was pretty good to great most of the time and I never abused her or anything like that. I think women just add all the little things up and the wham-mo... you are in the doghouse (and thier friends back them up at the time reinforcing her choice to go stone cold on you). They loose some respect for you and some trust for you. It's almost all the emotional connection was missing for a period of our marriage leading up to the ILYBNILWY (always) speech. The immediate reaction is to apologize (in my case stop drinking, stop yelling at my boys when they screwed up, much more attentive) and then talk and with that sometimes you say stupid emotional things that stick and make it worse. That's why i tried laying off for six months at a time at least she listens better now when we do talk (I watch my words carefully). Time has passed so I think we may be turning a corner. We both want to stay married because our lives in every other facet are good right now. We are both really good people, great extended family and friends, nice house w/ two kids and we make a great parenting team. We overall are the perfect couple apart from sex over the past two years. Before this I had ZERO worries about us. Now I see why people get divorced first hand.

The only real solution is for her to change her mind... I hope she can because right now even though everything else is great neither of us are really happy. I still think time will eventually heal our marriage. Perhaps I recently set us on a decent course of action to get there in the not so far future. She is much nicer and more talkative so that's a good sign. My guess is that we are a year away from STARTING to really put this all past us permanently.

I'm determined to have ONE happy marriage and that means NO sexless marriage ever again this will get resolved or I'll go single. I 100% believe it's solvable but takes a lot of time and herculean consistent efforts

It seems this happens a lot around marriage years 17-18 in my research, mine happened at year 17. Hope by year 19 we resolve this.

Guys WE caused this... even though we didn't know at the time. We all have to accept that we did not live up to expectations at some point in our marriage. our wives went though their hell (mine said she would cry in the bathroom and simply shut off emotions for me leading up to the ILYBNILWY night) like we are going through our own hell right now (sexless and disappointed). It's payback either consciously or unconsciously plain and simple. Like I said the ONLY way out is where both perceive to be winners.

The one thing I'm certain of is that one way or another I avoid a 5-10-15-20 year type issue either with her or without her. My bet is she comes around eventually hopefully sooner rather than later. I have no doubt she loves me... but she's not feeling the attraction as of yet and wrestles with her old feelings still.

Good luck to all the good guys going through this... We deserve better.... what the women do (consciously) is cruel and unusual punishment just like what we did to them (mostly unconsciously)
I think of it as passing life's test. There will be an end it's like the lottery though when it'll happen.

Give it LOTS of time if you really love your wife otherwise your just another divorce statistic. Remember what doesn't kill makes it stronger. Could be heaven around the corner.

So MEM's correct three outcomes:

1. Success
2. Failure but you stay married but basically miserable and celibate
3. Divorce 

I'm eliminating #2 (Failure is not an option)... if it comes to #3 I'll hold my head high and know I did my best and gave her plenty of time to heal. True to the vow "Sickness and health". she's lucky to have married me it's up to her to see that again. I'm pretty sure #1 will be the future choice... both of us winners.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Trying,
I have no idea what your situation is. So I can't comment on your specific time frame. I will however make some general comments about a sexless pattern. The vast majority of the time the longer it lasts the less likely you are to actually fix it. 

My general view is that if it is not infidelity or physical abuse, 3 months is plenty of time to forgive if you consistently behave well during that time. I honestly believe that usually, if it takes longer than that your partner is either deliberately holding on to resentments to use them against you, or they have given up on the marriage. OR they have no attraction/dislike sex and this is ALL a smoke screen. 

My W has never taken more than a week to get over anything. She has tried this a couple times: "I don't think I am EVER going to get over you saying/doing X". And I have a specific response to that which has resulted in her getting over "X" in about 10 minutes. Funny how that works. 






Trying2figureitout said:


> Joe....I'm convinced that talking doesn't really help in the short-term but may help long-term just be careful what you say they will see it as an attack regardless but you have to get your side in so they know what you expect out of the marriage. I've done so many times and all I think it does is remind her short-term is that we have an issue that she right now isn't capable of solving (part inaction, part acceptance of status-quo, part payback) . I think they will help once we solve the issue to set new boundaries I'm sure neither of us want to go through this again. It's going to have to be a win-win scenario, she needs to think she won for this to be resolved. Not forced to change quickly. I need a regular fun sex life without long lapses once we solve this.
> 
> I know the little things I did put a wall around her heart and that it's going to take time and action to break that down. The question is how long can I continue to do everything right and see seemingly no real changes. It's tough and takes up most of my thought process each day, I just want it fixed but this issue need time... no quick fix is in the cards unfortunately. Actually there are some changes... she now listens better, she thanks me more, not as many to-do lists, she has tried to do things out of character like sending me to an NFL game! Just not the BIG change... or Love language I Want desperately. But changes have occurred over the past two years. I guess that her "trying" to deal with this.
> 
> ...


----------



## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

Mem, 

You are likely correct but it relly depends how ingrained the turn off is. My wife shut off emotions + she's a serious grudge holder and a type A personality. So in my case there was never a chance of a quick fix.

I think some respond fast and some very slow. I think a cool off period is good to let the new behaviors set in especially in difficult cases **** mine.

I kne going in NEVER GET ON HER BAD SIDE.... Doh!


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Hicks,
The guys whose wives were really feeling taken advantage of regarding household labor splits generally aren't on here. If a woman loves and desires her H and housework is really hurting their marriage HE knows it. She tells him. Whether or not he fixes it is a different story but he knows what is happening. 

In "this" type situation where it is used as a smokescreen the conversation almost always goes like so: 
Her: "Well I resent that you don't do your fair share of housework".
Him: OK. I want to make up a schedule. Lets write it down and split it all in a fair way.
Her: (quietly) OK
Him: So if I stick to that schedule religiously - when can we resume a normal sex life?
Her: Angrily (I have no idea how long it is going to take me to get over all this resentment)
Him: Hold on, before today you never told me house work issues were so severe they were literally ruining our marriage. And now this is the basis for an open ended denial of sex? 
Her: Well its more complicated than that

Author interjection here: You betcha it is more complicated than that. It is 100 percent true that all wives can pass a polygraph question: "Do you wish your H did more housework" by answering yes. Equally true that this is not used as a concealed weapon unless they want to use it as a concealed weapon. 

BTW: In the spirit of gender neutrality, when the male has lost his desire for his W, he often makes up a similar set of "excuses" that are actually true statements, but have nothing to do with the real problem. 

If he wants to allow her to play this game - than his move goes something like this: "OK, I promise to fix that. What else is impacting your desire for me". And if she avoids answering that question, and won't give a time table on the house work thing she is either flat out lying to him or is simply an emotionally abusive partner and he needs to call her on it. 






Hicks said:


> I would be careful with that script.
> Your wife's lack of desire is caused outside the bedroom, not inside it.
> Those "general things" like help out with the housework are actually quite crucial. #1, 2, 3 are all good... but #4 is where you will get yourself in trouble. She will feel blamed.


----------



## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

Her's what I believe is the general plan of action.

Apologize for your part in the issue
Listen carefully to her
Make needed changes permanent
Give it time
Have Talk 1: Tell her anout your desires and expectations in the marriage. Ask her what the issue is now, 
Give it time
Have Talk 2: tll her what she has done has now damaged the marriage and that you cannot accept it anymore. Give her a choice either closer or further apart.

All along be nice, fun and respectful. Never compare with others or suggest a fix fo her issue. Be firm let her sweat a little.

Give it time

Now you will have either Success or failure... either way you win and did e best you could.


----------



## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> If he wants to allow her to play this game - than his move goes something like this: "OK, I promise to fix that. What else is impacting your desire for me". And if she avoids answering that question, and won't give a time table on the house work thing she is either flat out lying to him or is simply an emotionally abusive partner and he needs to call her on it.


That's why it's always a mistake to ask your wife why she is not sexual, and what she or you can do to make her more sexual. Always a mistake. She can't answer it. But if she does and the husband logically tries to execute it all, she will just think that he's doing all these things to get sex. That does not make a woman feel loved.

I agree he has to get her to understand the nature of his sexual desire as a core emotional need. But, he has to leave it up to her to choose her path to fix it within herself, while he chooses to take a path of action to fix whatever he is doing to make her feel unloved. A conversation like #4 is an excuse to talk about all the things wrong with her (because implied is that good wives are horny), and makes her feel unloved and unappreciated.

Regarding housework... If a man asks his wife, will you give me more sex if I do more housework, and then he starts doing more housework, he will not get more sex. A man has to think about the way he wants sex from his wife in relation to the things she wants him to do. He wants his wife to be naturally attracted to him without having to tell her (she should just KNOW that sex is important). He wants his wife to really "want" him (highly desire him). He wants his wife to think about having sex with him. He wants his wife to initiate sex with him. So, when a man is trying to meet the need of the woman, it's helpful to think about HOW he wants his need met. The HOW makes all the difference. That's why men fail with the housework solution.


----------



## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Hicks said:


> Regarding housework... If a man asks his wife, will you give me more sex if I do more housework, and then he starts doing more housework, he will not get more sex. A man has to think about the way he wants sex from his wife in relation to the things she wants him to do. He wants his wife to be naturally attracted to him without having to tell her (she should just KNOW that sex is important). He wants his wife to really "want" him (highly desire him). He wants his wife to think about having sex with him. He wants his wife to initiate sex with him. So, when a man is trying to meet the need of the woman, it's helpful to think about HOW he wants his need met. The HOW makes all the difference. That's why men fail with the housework solution.



Actually, the solution to this is to convince her that sex makes you want to do housework . . . and prove it to her next time you have sex by doing the dishes or laundry _afterwards_. Of course, if the sex stops, so does the housework. You can use any of the Top 10 following excuses if she balks about your new-found love of domestic chores, when she complains you aren't doing them as regularly as you should:

10. "I just felt so _tired_ today."
9. "I have a headache"
8. "Didn't I just do housework the other day?"
7. "I'm just not feeling inspired."
6. "God! You want laundry again? It's like you want clean clothes every day!"
5. "Most husbands don't do _nearly_ as much housework as I do. Bob doesn't even fold for Alice. And he won't do delicates at all, not even for birthdays or anniversaries. You should count yourself lucky."
4. "I'm just not into it today."
3. "I'm not here to be your little housekeeper! God, it's like you married a maid or something! Mother warned me about you ..."
2. "Let's just cuddle."

And the number one BS excuse as to why you won't do housework until after sex is . . . 

1. "I just don't feel 'fresh' enough."


Seriously, I consider housework a life-skill, not a hardcore beta skill. But I also acknowledge that men and women have different ideas about it. Every married dude should do his fair share . . . but yardwork, house and car repair should also be factored into the equation, so putting up storm windows and mowing the lawn is in there too. 

And if she wants any more than your 50%, then, well, I don't see any harm in some good-natured negotiations.


----------



## Walt (Jul 17, 2011)

Hicks said:


> That's why it's always a mistake to ask your wife why she is not sexual, and what she or you can do to make her more sexual. Always a mistake. She can't answer it. But if she does and the husband logically tries to execute it all, she will just think that he's doing all these things to get sex. That does not make a woman feel loved.


Hicks, do you know my wife?:rofl: 



Hicks said:


> I agree he has to get her to understand the nature of his sexual desire as a core emotional need. But, he has to leave it up to her to choose her path to fix it within herself, while he chooses to take a path of action to fix whatever he is doing to make her feel unloved. A conversation like #4 is an excuse to talk about all the things wrong with her (because implied is that good wives are horny), and makes her feel unloved and unappreciated.
> 
> Regarding housework... If a man asks his wife, will you give me more sex if I do more housework, and then he starts doing more housework, he will not get more sex. A man has to think about the way he wants sex from his wife in relation to the things she wants him to do. He wants his wife to be naturally attracted to him without having to tell her (she should just KNOW that sex is important). He wants his wife to really "want" him (highly desire him). He wants his wife to think about having sex with him. He wants his wife to initiate sex with him. So, when a man is trying to meet the need of the woman, it's helpful to think about HOW he wants his need met. The HOW makes all the difference. That's why men fail with the housework solution.


:iagree:

In short, he needs to open the conversation and keep it about feelings - not actions (cleaning the house, etc.).


----------



## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

Totally agree about he NOT tying it to any one action like housework... that's a horrible plan of action. Don't ask what would make her have more sex with her.. too much power you give her over you. Just BE THE MAN SHE WANTS and BE FIRM WITH YOUR EXPECTATIONS. Don't give her the power, take the high road. It's not you it's HER.

What we men have to prove is ARE YOU THE RIGHT MAN FOR HER. The reason SHE (not YOU) is sexless is that she has doubts and feels like punishing you for little things buit up over the years. She has control over you.. you need to change that dynamic over time. Don't be afraid to lose her IF you want to have success. I love my wife wife so freaking much but i will leave her if she is not happy with me. I will hold my head high knowing i did the right thing. We are not at fault our wives are also. 50/50.

It's all about communication, she didn't communicate that things were bothering her in a way we heard her. i'll bet if we all had a time machine we would have listened long ago.

SHE decided to say the "I love you but not in love with you" statement WE NEVER DID. WE have the high ground. We love them unconditionally even when treated badly. We are trying to hold the family together. We are doing our job and expectation. They aren't right now. They are punishing you consciously... it's almost evil. They are women, we don't get it. We thought we didn't marry a psycho WRONG they all are psycho! Some just hide it better.

The key is to finally LISTEN to her and make all changes she asked for. Then give it time. She needs to think she WON when in reality you both will WIN and have a healthier marriage than before the lead p to this sexless period. You'll both learn to communicate better which should maintain the peace. It's 50/50 remember that.

If she is happy she WILL have sex with you. Get her to happy again.

My wife and I got to this point because of lack of communication, she let the "little" things build up and never truly said what bothered her. I let he lack of sex get to me and lashed out not to her but to my kids and drank a little too much and ignored her more at times because I was frustrated but couldn't talk to her at he time. IT WAS BOTH OUR FAULTS WE GOT HERE. I was too nice and didn't let her know my true WANTS. NOw at least she KNOWS what it's going to take to be married to me down the road.

I look at this whole sexless period as a GREAT THING!

Our previous marriage was unsustainable... I needed the WAKE UP CALL. Her actions probably indirectly SAVED our marriage. I dislike the treatment so far but see it as necessary. I can see the big picture of our life together. I actually thank her for the wake up call.

It gives us a chance to communicate and better our marriage. Even though we don't have sex currently much, we have a MUCH better marriage. My kids now love me so much more , they understood why I yelled and forgave me long ago. They see whats going on now and they know that I'm doing he right things. Eventually the sex will return and then it should last us the rest of our lives. She now knows what I WANT without a doubt she also knows that I WILL LEAVE HER if things won't change. I'll give her plenty of time but there is a limit. If I left I'm sure the kids would go with me. They love my wife but know i work harder for the family. They come to me more than her. They sense the stress and unfairness. My wife could lose her whole family over this if she doesn't change. That's why I have hope that things WILL change. In time. She says "I" and "me", I say "We" and Us" it's obvious who has the high ground who's trying harder for the family.

This gives us both a chance to reboot the marriage and to do it correctly this time with more communication. I think all marriages go through this to an extent. Some have to get to the brink of divorce to affect needed change. With consistent action and firm resolve most can avoid that. She likely loves you... you just need to remind why she married you.

Do your part in the marriage with housework but NEVER tie it to sex. Be the best husband and be firm with your expectations she will have a choice. She will likely come around eventually when she feels like she won. Be firm with your reasonable expectations throughout the process to hold her accountable if needed later on.

Quit trying to play MIND GAMES (Like most of manning up) they don't work long term (it's not the real you she married you e way you were stay true to yourslf) but be firmer with her on boundaries. Actions work. Consistency works. Resolve works. Time heals.

Never say NEED always replace with WANT (It's a woman thing). Always keep a level head and stay on the high ground. Get the balance back and make her sweat if needed. Work on your marriage even if she won't. Be the man of the family (It's what she wants). She will (eventually) love you for it. Both winners.

Way I see it I'm willing to sacrifice 3 or so years (worse) for 50 or more good years (better). It's a good thing and fulfills your vow "better or worse" and avoids a lousy unfulfilled marriage. Now go do the right thing better is on your horizon.

If there was no chance your wife would be gone already. She wants to work it out. She wants happy just like you. It's getting there and it's on her schedule. Love her.


----------



## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> The interesting thing about 4 is this. The more anxious and avoidant they become when you are pressing for answers, the more likely that THEY believe the desire problem is not fixable.
> 
> Blocking techniques all fall into one of four categories:
> - Stating that they simply "don't know" what turns them on. (this is where you have to start deciding how much pressure you want to apply)


MEM, what if they _genuinely don't know_? They don't think about, have never thought about it. Like the woman my wife knows who's too shy to read the sex advice pages in Cosmo? You might get "Hmm, Brad Pitt is nice", but how much help is that?

You can push, but if they don't know, how do they answer, unless they invent something just to shut you up?


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

SB,
I actually believe it is true they sometimes do not know why they lack desire.
I also believe if they love you, know this is really hurting you they will teach themselves AND you how to gradually get them aroused. And will let you do that on a regular basis. And that is about love and commitment. Not the complex dynamic of desire. And yes desire is tough,
But I could feel zero desire and relax an let my w arouse me.
I know because I have done it.


E=Sawney Beane;445386]MEM, what if they _genuinely don't know_? They don't think about, have never thought about it. Like the woman my wife knows who's too shy to read the sex advice pages in Cosmo? You might get "Hmm, Brad Pitt is nice", but how much help is that?

You can push, but if they don't know, how do they answer, unless they invent something just to shut you up?[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> SB,
> I actually believe it is true they sometimes do not know why they lack desire.
> I also believe if they love you, know this is really hurting you they will teach themselves AND you how to gradually get them aroused. And will let you do that on a regular basis. And that is about love and commitment. Not the complex dynamic of desire. And yes desire is tough,
> But I could feel zero desire and relax an let my w arouse me.
> I know because I have done it.


One of, if not THE key difference between your relationship and that of many others is you and your W's willingness to let the other try to turn on a partner who is (in your words) neutral.

I don't think you realise how rare this is.

My wife's friend would almost certainly rather be fined than have to address her sexual arousal. I would hazard she would rather suffer physical pain than address her sexual arousal. In cases like this, partners work on the principle that YOU would rather spare them the psychological discomfort they would feel delving into this bit of their psyche than expect them to work out what turns them on. How much pyschological discomfort would you be prepared to put someone through to try to make them confront their sexuality?


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Very little. I would likely end it. 


Beane;445622]One of, if not THE key difference between your relationship and that of many others is you and your W's willingness to let the other try to turn on a partner who is (in your words) neutral.

I don't think you realise how rare this is.

My wife's friend would almost certainly rather be fined than have to address her sexual arousal. I would hazard she would rather suffer physical pain than address her sexual arousal. In cases like this, partners work on the principle that YOU would rather spare them the psychological discomfort they would feel delving into this bit of their psyche than expect them to work out what turns them on. How much pyschological discomfort would you be prepared to put someone through to try to make them confront their sexuality?[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

SB I am lower drive than my husband, although lately I feel more interested in sex and think about more than I did before. Anyway, we both decided that he would have to help me get in the mood because I could not make myself. We figured out that i just needed more time and a slow approach so that i could rid my mind of worries and think of him. That does the trick more than 90% of the time. I get arroused then feel desire and it's on. 

I notice something about my friends who don't have sex frequently with their husbands. When they describe how they avoid having sex, it seems to me that the husbands seem to back off too easily. From their description it sounds as if their husbands think that they should not want sex so frequently and that they should be as controlled as their wives. Is there any of that element in your thoughts? 

I know sex is normal and different set points of desire is normal. My husband does not back off from that and he is understanding that my drive is part of who I am and his is the same. Although he has always been supportive and loving of who I am, he always says that if I am happy with his support then he expected the same from me. He does not get angry about sex just persistent and reminds me about our promise to understand. There was a period of time about two years ago when I did not feel supported and frequency dropped but we are back on track.

I thought it might help you situation to tell you. I also take a promise seriously and I don't like to break my word. My husband is the same way. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Trying to figure out "why" the wife "lost her drive" is a very unproductive road.

The main reason for this, is that the wife really hasn't lost her drive, so the entire conversation reinforces a lie she is telling herself.

A man should put no energy into diagnosing his wife. All the energy should be in holding her accountable to meet his needs in the marriage.


----------



## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> I notice something about my friends who don't have sex frequently with their husbands. When they describe how they avoid having sex, it seems to me that the husbands seem to back off too easily. From their description it sounds as if their husbands think that they should not want sex so frequently and that they should be as controlled as their wives. Is there any of that element in your thoughts?


I think there's an element of wanting to have one's cake and eat it in the situation you describe. You can't on the one hand say "No means no" and expect that to be the understanding, and on the other hand be upset when someone follows through on that.

Plus, as far as those men go, I think they illustrate the fact that if you tell people the same thing over and over again for long enough, some of them will believe it. They've been told their sex drive is too high and "wrong" and they've been worn down. 



> I thought it might help you situation to tell you. I also take a promise seriously and I don't like to break my word. My husband is the same way.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My situation is that my W and I have a lot of sex a lot of the time. The idea of avoiding is alien to either / both of us. I try to look for where theories are weaker, and find ways to build up /reinforce / redevelop the theory so that the weaknesses go away.


----------



## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

Hicks said:


> Trying to figure out "why" the wife "lost her drive" is a very unproductive road.
> 
> The main reason for this, is that the wife really hasn't lost her drive, so the entire conversation reinforces a lie she is telling herself.
> 
> A man should put no energy into diagnosing his wife. All the energy should be in holding her accountable to meet his needs in the marriage.


I'm not sure I understand this post, Hicks.

Why wouldn't it be beneficial for a husband to be able to identify that he may be one of the causes by not meeting her needs in the marriage? Why is that unproductive?

And a wife can lose her drive - if she doesn't have it, it's not there. It doesn't mean it's gone for good and for all eternity - more likely it is being suppressed - but it certainly isn't there for her husband now. Why is that a lie when it seems more like reality?

And what are your recommendations for accountability? I know that as a wife, I certainly would not respond if my husband was forever holding over my head - 'now you must do this or else I'm going to leave you'.

Like I said - didn't understand your post. Can you provide more explanation?


----------



## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

Enchantment said:


> I'm not sure I understand this post, Hicks.
> 
> Why wouldn't it be beneficial for a husband to be able to identify that he may be one of the causes by not meeting her needs in the marriage? Why is that unproductive?
> 
> ...


It boils down to expectations and past patterns (18 years in my case)

I married my wife for a great variety of reasons and sex was never the #1 reason. In fact we have always been a low sex couple out of my respect for her lower drive and busy lifestyle. Around once a month with decent in-between touch. At least it was like clock-work now 4 months can be the window.

Now that we are "sexless" all that does is reinforce in me that she is unwilling (at this point and for two years) to resolve her feelings about me. It's not that she lost her drive but that she chooses consciously to avoid most contact. She even says she likes sex! But in 2011 we only had sex in April and July... crazy low.

I made is clear that I wanted a regular sex life... so far she has done anything but that ignoring my wants entirely. That is not supporting me like I do her. It's stressing out the marriage and could end it.

So in my case I had to find a way to jump start her "feelings" the threat of divorce was the only way. I needed to put this at the forefront of her thoughts.

I think in cases where ther is true lack of desire and not holding back consciously then a wife needs to understand that a husband has a very strong desire to be physical with her as a way to connect. Almost like how a fighter pilot loves to fly not a need but a super strong desire. An agreement should be reached that she can perform a hand job or blow job or as much as she an stomach for the sake of the marriage. Also a lot of non-sexual touch to stay connected. All this "may" trigger her drive later on.

To put is another way, I'm not at all gay (Total lack of desire for that) if i KNEW had to whack off some guy once every week to have a happy marriage I'd DO IT.

I don't get why wives think they can pull this junk and get away with it. It's a partnership not their little world.

That's why if mine continues she can go live in her little world alone.

I don't get why wives thing that this is ok at all i marriage. same goes for guys who pull the same junk with their wives. 

It's such an easy fix but people will destroy their lives over it. Sad.


----------



## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

Trying2figureitout said:


> To put is another way, I'm not at all gay (Total lack of desire for that) at all but if someone told me I had to whack off some guy once every week to have a happy marriage I'd DO IT.


And after a while you'd be royally f*cked off with doing it and you'd become resentful. Put another way, once in a while you'll put your hand down an unflushed toilet to unblock it. If it's more than once in a while, you start looking at fixing the drains.



> I don't get why wives think they can pull this junk and get away with it. It's a partnership not their little world.
> 
> That's why if mine continues she can go live in her little world alone.
> 
> I don't get why wives thing that this is ok at all.


Because even if you can make them do it, you can't make them like it.


----------



## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> Very little. I would likely end it.


I suspect that that is really the only way.


----------



## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

Sawney Beane said:


> And after a while you'd be royally f*cked off with doing it and you'd become resentful. Put another way, once in a while you'll put your hand down an unflushed toilet to unblock it. If it's more than once in a while, you start looking at fixing the drains.
> 
> 
> 
> Because even if you can make them do it, you can't make them like it.


I disagree...

What it takes is getting her past all the little resentments. She loves me it's just she's got a bad habit of holding grudges when she perceives people have wronged her.

It's going to take time, patience and resolve to make her do it and like it again... part of that is me tearing down he wall she put up. It's coming down a little more every day. It's going to take time but I see signs we turned a corner.

i just jump started the process by giving her a reality check that this cannot go on indefinitely. Just like she gave me a reality check when my behaviors were affecting her.

We have a great marriage it's just the sex thing. No current resentments from her to I.... been that way for two years.


----------



## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

Trying2figureitout said:


> I disagree...
> 
> What it takes is getting her past all the little resentments. She loves me it's just she's got a bad habit of holding grudges when she perceives people have wronged her.
> 
> ...


I don't want to p*ss in your porridge, but YOU aren't making her like it. SHE is doing that. You might be facilitating the process, but that change is coming from HER, not you. She's changing because she wants to change.

BTW, congratulations on breaking one of the fundamental barriers, the one whereby people would rather be right than happy:smthumbup:


----------



## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Enchantment said:


> I'm not sure I understand this post, Hicks.
> 
> Why wouldn't it be beneficial for a husband to be able to identify that he may be one of the causes by not meeting her needs in the marriage? Why is that unproductive?
> 
> ...


YOu are right. Men should not wonder why their wife lost her drive. He should think about why she is suppressing it. When looking at it as "suppressed" you start looking at her emotional needs, her personal happiness, her attraction to you. 

Regarding accountability, when you think your wife has a problem with hormones, depression, a medical problem or really any "problem"... Instead of telling her to go see a doctor, what you want to do is express your need for a sexual marriage, and the expectation that she will solve whatever problem is causing her lack of sexual feeligns... It's seldom helpful to try to "diagnose" your wife.


----------



## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

I'm still going with the Secret Herpes excuse.


----------



## Maia (Aug 28, 2011)

It sounds that you have a great relationship. That you and your wife are a wonderful husband and wife to each other. Maybe your wife is stressed out about something? work or life matter? You should talk to her about how you feel. But, Make sure to start this conversation by letting her know how much you love her, that you find her very attractive and wonderful. That you love having sex with. Ask her if something has been bothering her lately. After all of that tell her that It bothers you that you don't have enough sex and that it makes you feel bad. Don't mention resentment or anything like. I suggest you to surprise her with a home cooked Friday night dinner, flowers, and chocolates. Lots of luck


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Michelle,
I hope you find a way to "break the ice" with your H. I know my W is glad we both have that "in love" feeling 22 years into our relationship. 

I will also tell you that it takes a certain amount of emotional resiliance to really "hear" and act on what your partner tells you. 

My W knows that I am monogamous by nature. And is confident that even on the far side of the earth in a situation where no one would ever know - I am faithful. Because I WOULD KNOW. And that would make our connection and marriage less special. She ALSO knows that she made a commitment to "love" me. And a marital vow of love is an implicit sexual commitment. Just as I made a vow to love her and that implies a long list of things that I am responsible for doing to show that I value and respect her and the marriage. 

That said we have had a few moments when she felt overwhelmed or resentful of my higher drive. And each time I have reminded her that I don't want her to do anything she doesn't want to do. And that I am also not agreeable to being celibate. She fully grasps the connection between those concepts. 

FWIW we have never had to have "the talk" as outlined in this post. She has never "starved" me. 



Michelle27 said:


> Mem, that was AMAZING advice. I am on the other side of the problem as I see it being faced by Joe here. This sort of approach may have fixed my lack of desire years ago. And while in my case, it's not so much about the details of sex as much as the perceived expectations and resentments surrounding this and other parts of my marriage. But this would at least open the door to the dialogue that may get to the bottom of the real problem as opposed to what many women (me included) cloud sexual problems with. I am very impressed.


----------



## Michelle27 (Nov 8, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> Michelle,
> I hope you find a way to "break the ice" with your H. I know my W is glad we both have that "in love" feeling 22 years into our relationship.
> 
> I will also tell you that it takes a certain amount of emotional resiliance to really "hear" and act on what your partner tells you.
> ...


It isn't "just" about the sex in my marriage, which probably totally complicates things. We've had to deal with sexual abuse of 2 of our children, my husband's depression resulting from his son's disclosure of that abuse 5 years ago and all of the fallout from the depression as well as my husband's inability to cope not just with the news of first one child, and then that child going on to abuse our youngest child (much milder than the abuse the first child suffered because it was stopped, thank goodness). Through all of this, I have literally felt like I've been in "react" mode. First, because he couldn't cope with the news of the first child having had to endure horrendous abuse, likely for years, the legal crap (year long trial) as a result, I had to take over and do the things that needed to be done. I pretty much took over running the household as all he could cope with was his job pretty much. And...I had no clue for several years that his anger outbursts could be depression so he went undiagnosed for those years. Then when diagnosed, his deep shame at having not been able to cope and frankly, the knowledge of what the anger did to the whole family made a terrible cycle of anger, sadness, guilt and then anger again to try to "unload" the crappy feelings he was trying to bury. And while I intellectually understood this most of the way along, I still built up huge walls of resentment. 

So I'm working on forgiveness, and I think my husband is finally interested in working through all of his unresolved stuff after a variety of false starts. Our own bedroom activities have obviously suffered a lot as a result because of my resentments (my thoughts, embarassingly enough, often ran to, "how dare he ask one more thing of me!"). It made me pull away from him more than ever, and from his perspective, it was me he needed more than ever to just be "there" for him. I just had nothing left to give so often when I had to be doing everything else. And sometimes, he has moments where he expresses his gratitude over what I was able to do when he couldn't. 

It's interesting...I've been on this forum for awhile...but I avoided the sex board like the plague for a long time. But I started reading here a few months back, and I think it's helping me get over at least some of the resentments I've been carrying. Or, at least make a start. My husband works out of town 50% of the time (4 days out of town, 4 days home, etc.) and over the past few weeks we've had sex 7 times...that's more than we've had in the previous 6 months. He's happier, he's being nicer than he has been to me in years and I'm more open to giving to him some of the things he wants from me. It's going to take time, as there are still a lot to things to deal with and to get over, but I think we're on the right track.

I'm sorry to have hijacked this thread...but it's been really helpful to me.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Michelle,
I am really, really sorry for what you are going through with the kids. That would put a huge strain on any marriage. As for your H. Glad he is getting help. And I understand why you needed him to step up when this happened. That is a lot to carry on your own. 




Michelle27 said:


> It isn't "just" about the sex in my marriage, which probably totally complicates things. We've had to deal with sexual abuse of 2 of our children, my husband's depression resulting from his son's disclosure of that abuse 5 years ago and all of the fallout from the depression as well as my husband's inability to cope not just with the news of first one child, and then that child going on to abuse our youngest child (much milder than the abuse the first child suffered because it was stopped, thank goodness). Through all of this, I have literally felt like I've been in "react" mode. First, because he couldn't cope with the news of the first child having had to endure horrendous abuse, likely for years, the legal crap (year long trial) as a result, I had to take over and do the things that needed to be done. I pretty much took over running the household as all he could cope with was his job pretty much. And...I had no clue for several years that his anger outbursts could be depression so he went undiagnosed for those years. Then when diagnosed, his deep shame at having not been able to cope and frankly, the knowledge of what the anger did to the whole family made a terrible cycle of anger, sadness, guilt and then anger again to try to "unload" the crappy feelings he was trying to bury. And while I intellectually understood this most of the way along, I still built up huge walls of resentment.
> 
> So I'm working on forgiveness, and I think my husband is finally interested in working through all of his unresolved stuff after a variety of false starts. Our own bedroom activities have obviously suffered a lot as a result because of my resentments (my thoughts, embarassingly enough, often ran to, "how dare he ask one more thing of me!"). It made me pull away from him more than ever, and from his perspective, it was me he needed more than ever to just be "there" for him. I just had nothing left to give so often when I had to be doing everything else. And sometimes, he has moments where he expresses his gratitude over what I was able to do when he couldn't.
> 
> ...


----------

