# really such thing as "perfect" relationship?



## Adeline (Jan 24, 2014)

I've noticed that a lot of responses to threads, mine included and others, about marriages that the spouse is treating them poorly that the advice is to leave and find someone better and that you don't have to waste your life being unhappy. I have had this thinking as well, I think we all do to some degree, especially when it comes to our friends. Don't we always tell our friends when their boyfriend/girlfriend is any shade of a jerk that they "deserve better than that"? 

I've definitely felt that in my own struggling marriage, even long before posting here. Thinking about how it would be nice just to leave this all behind and find someone new and start fresh. I feel like I could easily start dating again and not wind up alone forever. Feel what it's like to have a "normal" relationship again. I daydream about it occasionally actually. But then I think deeper... aren't all relationships fairly wonderful in the beginning? I could probably pick any type of guy and things would be more or less guaranteed to be rainbows and butterflies for a good 6 months to a year. I think about how I was in a bad relationship just prior to meeting my now husband, and how free I felt leaving my ex and how amazing it felt to be dating a new guy (now hubby). And now look... wonderful new guy has now turned into a not so great husband all these years later (I've got some blame in there too of course).

Just like the old adages of marriage is hard work, marriage is never easy etc maybe finding someone new (aside from danger and other extenuating circumstances) isn't the answer because any relationship will come with its own set of problems? Or is perfection really out there? I only have one close friend who is married, and her marriage has all sorts of issues as well that are completely different than mine, such as her husband cheating both physically and emotionally. I thank goodness have not experienced that in my own marriage. But she has continued to stay with him and go to counseling and not give up. It sometimes makes me think that I shouldn't give up either... nobody is perfect. 

Then I can think of a few married couples that I didn't really know well but seemed to be amazing, strong couples. Through interactions with them, facebook sharing, and just general knowledge of what they do it really seemed like they were solid, model marriages. Then both these couples that I admired from afar ended up getting divorces! I was literally shocked when I found out... it went from everything is wonderful to done. And since I didn't know them very well, I will never know why. I find myself almost desperate to know what could have possibly broken up such great marriages, what did they decide that they wouldn't put up with? You never know whats behind closed doors, so I'm starting to doubt even those that claim that their marriage is "perfect."

I think about this especially given that we are about to start counseling, and maybe we might be able to fix things for our future and work through it all. But I've wondered, so what if we are able to fix our relationship... will it really heal the past? Do I really want to be with someone who has done this to me at any point, maybe I should find someone that would have never treated me this way in the first place... ya know? *I guess I wonder if there really is "better" out there or maybe there is just "different" out there.* Anyways, sorry if this was redundant. What are your thoughts on this? Is leaving and seeking out something better really always the answer, or will you just find a different set of difficulties and should just stay persistent in the current marriage forever? Especially given that this is popular advice here to not waste your happiness.


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

I found better but there is much more to it than that. I was with the ex for almost 20 years but when I finally decided to end the marriage it was not with any thought of finding a better relationship.
I ended it because the marriage had come to it's natural end, there was no cheating, abuse, gambling etc and we have remained great co parents and friends.

I had no thoughts at all of ending the marriage in order to step into another relationship. I first fixed myself and took 12 months out to grieve and grow. Dated various men for 12 months and then by accident met my current partner.

I can say without a doubt this relationship is the best of my life, we are an extremely amazing match, he is the right man for me and I am the right woman for him. To me this is the key, I was once with a very good man but we were not right for each other, the marriage was destined to end from the start.

I have no clue if Mr H and I will be together for ever, I have a strong feeling we have a very good chance.


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## MissFroggie (Sep 3, 2013)

I think there is a disproportionate number of people here on TAM who are still hurting and working out how to heal effectively. It does mean that the advice can often get to 'leave' 'get out' and 'you can do better' more quickly than it maybe should. We have to keep in mind that we are only hearing one side of a relationship and it is often only the negatives that are hurting the OP. Unless a relationship is abusive, I think most people coming here really want advice about making the relationship better and stronger, not just advice to leave and 'find better'. They want the relationship they are in to be better or they would have left already and be asking what to look for in a new partner. The only time I promptly say to get out is when the relationship is abusive and the OP is in danger to stay. Otherwise I try to explore different ways to improve the relationship. I think sometimes people go to the 'move on and heal' option before they really explore the 'heal and stay' options.

TAM offers excellent advice and I am very grateful for the insight it has given me. The kindness, compassion and generosity of taking the time to offer ideas and advice has been very beautiful - I really appreciate the people here. They are truly brilliant 

I do think that when giving or receiving advice we should keep in mind though that we only have one side of the relationship, it is probably only the parts of it that are upsetting or of concern and not the good bits, and that those responding to it (me included) are giving advice from where they are in their life, experience and often, in their own healing too.

I'm single and like to believe there can be 'perfect' relationships, but I don't think a 'perfect' relationship is one without it's problems to solve. I think in a perfect relationship the 'problems' would be ones that are solved together and are not deep-seated, long-term or damaging to core beliefs or disrespecting deal-breakers. The 'perfect' relationship, the way I see it is based on respect and love. There are too many people who claim to have a relationship because they 'love' each other, but if they don't respect each other it can't be love. I respect my boss, but I don't love him. I respect the sales person in a shop, but I don't love them. You can have respect without love, but you can't have love without respect.

I sometimes wonder if it is possible for me to find someone who I could be with for the rest of my life. I have changed so much and expect to continue to change too. I think with that it is a case of being with someone who grows with you, both of you growing and changing as a couple, like intertwined trees. That's something that just doesn't always work out, for no real reason other than you grew in different directions, or a different rates etc and things changed. I guess you only know if you're growing and changing at the rates and in the same directions over time, I'm not sure there are ways to know whether it will be that way or not before you start or if it is something you just have to find out. There could be clues that it won't work that way, but no sure ways to know. We just have to take the risk and do our best not to hurt each other and to be kind and respectful to each other. I'd like to meet someone to grow with...maybe I will one day


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Different can be better, if the differences add good traits or remove bad traits.

Perfect? No - that doesn't exist, but there are certainly degrees of good.

No person is perfect, either, and even with their ideal match, the relationship won't be "perfect" but it can be very, very good, especially if they have or develop the skills to work around or through their flaws and issues.

Since no person is perfect, and many are dysfunctional, flawed, have negative traits, or may even be "damaged," it is simply not possible for everyone - or even most, IMO - to have lasting good relationships. The flaws in most people will probably result in poor communication, or selfishness, or poor choices of partners - all of which can lead to poor relationships. 

Some flaws can be mitigated, people can learn and grow, so there is some hope that they can do better in an existing or future relationship. Most will just have to struggle to do the best they can, and often it will not be enough, or their partner can't improve on their flaws enough to make a _good _relationship.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Ain't no such thing as "perfect" anything.


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## Adeline (Jan 24, 2014)

I was using the word "perfect" sort of tongue in cheek. Hence the quotes. Meaning, people might say to leave and find something better implying that you could be 100% happy with someone else guaranteed. So I was wanting to explore that here  Of course perfection is impossible. I'm just wondering if you'd only be able to find someone that brings different problems and you just have to find a person with problems that you can learn to live with. Basically, should I (or anyone here) simply learn to live with and fix current problems with a spouse, or leave and seek elsewhere and see if we can find more tolerable problems to put up with basically, haha. Or if things could truly be "better than this" in any given situation.

Anyways, liking the insight so far, I just keep thinking how my ex was completely different than my husband in almost every way. Work ethics, finances, personality, physique, morals, and yet they both brought turmoil in different ways. When I left my ex I felt so free and that I could be so happy with someone else. And I was so very happy with my husband for years, and especially that first year. I had no idea the road ahead of me though. I just wonder if me not being able to get over what he has done for over a year, even if things can be fixed, means that I should leave and find someone else so I don't carry that damage in this marriage or that I'd likely have to deal with some other brand of tumultuous conflict with another person, so i might as well stick it out and make the best of it with my current husband as long as things improve. 

Because, of course, when I imagine leaving my husband and starting over with some mystery man, our hypothetical marriage is problem-free and we're soooo in love and respectful and I "never would have known love like this" if i hadn't left my husband... that's what I dream. But is that really realistic? Could I really be missing out on someone that is more compatible with me and only normal amounts of non earth shattering bickering? That's what this discussion is that I was curious to explore.


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## MissFroggie (Sep 3, 2013)

Jellybeans said:


> Ain't no such thing as "perfect" anything.


You've never had hot chocolate fudge cake with cream? Perfect breakfast IMO


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## Unique Username (Jul 6, 2013)

Adeline

It is useless to think about starting over with some "mystery man"

If you decide to leave your mentally and verbally abusive spouse, then you need to do so concentrating on YOURSELF and your career.
When YOU are happy with yourself and your own accomplishments....THEN you would be in a much better position to meet a healthy life partner.

Jumping from one man to the next is like jumping from the frying pan into the fire - or at the very least one frying pan to another OVER a fire lol

You need to concentrate on YOU and figuring out what makes YOU tick. Happiness comes from within.

There are no perfect relationships. They all take work. But, from the posts you've made in no less than a half-dozen threads...you are accurate in the realization that your relationship with your spouse is certainly less than healthy. 
Since you don't yet have children - NOW is the time to decide what to do to make your own life happy. You are young and can adapt - no matter how initially scary it is - to change. 
As I said before - look at all your posts as an intelligent, educated person and see what advice you would give this person. 
Your friend has offered you a room in your home state - where you DO have friends and family and things that are familiar to you. What a good healing place that would be.
Think about it. And do what I suggested.
Step out and look in - what advice would you give?


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Adeline said:


> Because, of course, when I imagine leaving my husband and starting over with some mystery man, our hypothetical marriage is problem-free and we're soooo in love and respectful and I "never would have known love like this" if i hadn't left my husband... that's what I dream. But is that really realistic? *Could I really be missing out on someone that is more compatible with me and only normal amounts of non earth shattering bickering?* That's what this discussion is that I was curious to explore.


Yes. That's exactly what happened for both me and my second wife. We had chosen poor partners in our first marriages - they were incompatible in many ways that got even worse with time.

We learned from our mistakes, and - IMO - we weren't too dysfunctional to preclude having a truly great relationship and marriage together. We just passed 14 years, and this is very close to our vision of an ideal relationship - yet still not "perfect."


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## Adeline (Jan 24, 2014)

Unique-hmmm that's a very good point about mindset, I guess it is just that I am so sure that I want to be married and have a family that it is hard not to think of that scenario even if I leave my husband. But I definitely would take that time to explore opportunities for myself and go to them without consequence of worry about another person, but I know down the road I'd like to find someone else to share a life with. And I also wanted to discuss this notion in general, not necessarily for my own relationship alone, but everyone who is experiencing a failing marriage. Will leaving be the best decision you've ever made because you shouldn't have to put up with any major problem in a relationship, or will you regret it down the road because you realized there really wasn't anything better out there, just different?

For me personally i almost feel like i'll regret it... I know this is going to sound strange, but my husband's good points are amazing, but completely over shadowed by his bad points. I think it was easy to leave my ex because not only was he not treating me right, but he also wasn't that stand out of a person. I think one of the reasons I haven't left my husband yet is because of his redeeming qualities... i keep thinking i'll never meet a man with the same drive, goals, responsibility, and uniqueness he has. And yet he only has it half right... overall he is a crappy person as far as personality and character in his home life lately. Maybe if he is able to fix those things and we can move on then dealing with the fact that I will forever not be able to see him in the same light because of what he has done just comes with the territory of any relationship, and i should just learn to live with imperfection. I'm not sure!

Married but Happy- very interesting. I knew that it probably did happen for people as you described, but wonder how often people really do "luck out" with someone better. Thanks for sharing!


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

"Working hard at it" is a very well used phrase. If two thirds of people have that attitude, then about fifty percent of marriages have someone who is prepared to work at it. We can assume the proportion is even higher than that, but as you really need both partners prepared to work at it, it will be an issue.

Then there is the same aim in life. If one partners see that both should contribute financially, to the housework, to sexlife and wants kids and the other agrees to make the marriage happen, then there will be big problems. 

If only fotry percent of people fall into either of these problems, most marriages hit big problems.

Unfortunately, the most common advice is to work at it (which the one who works take to heart and the lazy one agrees their partner should do), 

Otherwise, there is naff viral columns, in which a man a a lazy bum and has a Stepford wife and the marriage is fine when he realizes he is actually OK (and a henceforth a marraige guru). The third advice strand is 'man-up', which assumes that the problem is a man is a snivvly passive agressive bum who has not right to lose his virginity. If a man falls into either of these he is bound to have problems, if he sorts it out, he will pontificate of marriage, despite being a ****.

Most people do not fall into any of these traps. However, the chances of neither falling into either trap are far less. If neither do, they are as fortunate as they are contributing.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Unique Username said:


> *There are no perfect relationships. They all take work.*
> * Happiness comes from within.*


:iagree:

Perfectly. Well. Stated.

Perfection is a function of one's state of mind.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Jellybeans said:


> Ain't no such thing as "perfect" anything.


Sure there is.... You just need to define what ‘perfect’ means to you.

Just take the wedding vows; “to love, honor and cherish, to have and to hold...”. If you can define perfect is to just give and receive those things, it will be perfect. The fact that he might also cook, rock your world in bed, fix leaky faucets and fold laundry is just a perk. It’s when those trivial things become necessary for you to achieve ‘perfect’ that you sabotage yourself and start seeing your spouse and marriage as ‘less than perfect’ (a negative perception). 

Question your idea of “perfect”. Oh, and I also love the Zen idea of Wabi-sabi; that beauty is often found in imperfection, impermanent, and incomplete. My wife has a perfectly awful singing voice... and I love her for it all the more.


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## Sanity (Mar 7, 2011)

There is no such thing as a "perfect relationship but if one person or both in the relationship habitually "****s the bed" and does not make the effort to clean the sheets promptly eventually yes my advice is to leave. Some people simply should not be married. 

Some folks say marriage is "work". I think they are right but it should be "teamwork", meaning both should and will have disagreements, but both of you never take your eye off the "prize" which is the marriage and thriving together as a couple. Yes I can be an ******* and yes you can be a ***** but at the end of the day we are two aholes and *****es that love each other and will conquer the world together.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

See my thread here...

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/long-t...t-but-beauty-can-found-our-imperfections.html

I am one of the few who never felt like my marriage was "work".. I really mean this.. I have always LOVED being married... it has BEEN EVERYTHING I DREAMED IT WOULD BE... ...my husband would say the same....I've asked..... 

This , however, doesn't mean we don't fight on occasion..







....We do! ...and on that thread ....I listed some of our struggles along the way ....it's just that *the Good* FAR outweighs *the Bad*..it always has. 

There is so much to BE Thankful for. 

I owe "*Compatibility*" to our getting along so well though.... I actually consider myself "a little hard to please" in what I WANT from a man, how I envisioned my/our future.... I just happened to marry one who wanted the same things I DID... and he wasn't faking it either...he's held his word and been a wonderful husband/ Father..

I also feel... If me or he would have married someone else, given his tipped Beta personality, a woman could have taken too much advantage of his goodness..(even a little guilty myself here).....or me ... if we didn't have enough in common....I just don't feel it would have played out so well..

This might be us once in a while..







...but it's interesting...we don't leave each others side... I listen to him... I seek to understand his feelings... he listens to me...He wants my happiness... we've always been able to readily admit our faults...and forgive each other our weak moments....

We need to feel that "emotionally bonded Peace" between us..that's just always been our way.


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## notperfectanymore (Mar 1, 2012)

<----------- yeah........

Was perfect for damn near 17 years! Or so I thought...but ain't givin up yet...TAM is wonderful, and so is my man....midlife for both of us...44 & 47...woohooooooo!!!!! We will have 20 years this July and going strong...workin it...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

It depends how different one is from the control group. 

If one is within a standard deviation or two of normal then they should not have much trouble finding a close match. Whether they'd be willing to work at bridging the remaining differences or not could be the difference between making a relationship "perfect" or not.

As you get older the likelihood of finding anyone is reduced by sole arithmetic - the good ones are generally taken. It's like shopping at TJ Max or Marshall's. Yes, you may find something awesome and for a great price but not likely exactly what you want for what price - compromises - you're willing to put up with.

At 54 the chance of finding a similar age, well educated, wealthy, and decent to good looking partner without kids or with grown kids that is available is pretty slim, and we haven't thrown compatibility into the mix... Then...

Find someone like this and then tell her that her candidate love is basically a 54 year old teenager with a PhD who enjoys Grumpy Cat, charming interns, driving his pride and joy Mini S hard, and has two kids in private universities for a decade each and see exactly how many responses you get.

Anybody matching and interested please PM me. Operators are standing by...

Write down what would be your ideal mate, then spend a day or two thinking about your circle of friends and who would fit the bill, single or married. If you identify lots of them then you have a point in expecting better. My grand total when I did this was one. And she's too bubbly for me.


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## AlmostYoung (May 24, 2012)

I like your opening post Adeline, you show much growth and wisdom.



Adeline said:


> I've noticed that a lot of responses to threads, mine included and others, about marriages that the spouse is treating them poorly that the advice is to leave and find someone better and that you don't have to waste your life being unhappy.


The thing is, most of these people are only focused on what they are "getting" or "not getting". 

I can guarantee you that most people who are "unhappy" in their marriage have made deep cuts in their _giving_ for quite a while now.

Which causes their partner to pull back too. 

Someone has to break this downward spiral. 

Problems are always a two way street. Seldom is only one partner responsible. Maybe you could make a valid case it's 55-45, or 60-40 or whatever... but so what? If you want a better marriage you need to lose the scorecard, make the first move and be consistent. Love really is contagious.


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

I was just talking about this with a friend who has been a wonderful support to me and she wants to see me happy. Her solution is to leave an unhappy marriage. This is my second marriage and I can say that neither marriage has been ideal. I was married the first time to my high school sweetheart and we were madly in love, no one could have kept us apart but then he started wanting to be sexually experimental and have 3-somes which I was not interested in so he started having affairs. 7 years and 2 children later he left us for an older woman who then left him. He then remarried and destroyed yet another family with his sexual behavior.

I have now been married to my second husband 21 years and while I did see some red flags before we married I thought it would be nothing like my first marriage. What I can say is the dating stage when the hormones run high a person is totally blind to reality.

We are a step family with his, mine and ours....what a mess! My daughters accepted husband but his sons did not accept me and that was an ongoing battle til we finally stopped talking to one another when the boys were adults. Husband is the emotionally unavailable type, lot of passive-aggressive actions, does not communicate well, very self absorbed/selfish. When we were dating he was involved, he would talk and I really thought our communication was great but things changed when we married. 

Only 10 days after our marriage he got an overseas assignment to Italy with the Air Force and form there on out everything was changed. he was put in a supervisory position and he was on the road a bit. I had not clue about how to use the military system and here we were overseas with 4 small children, he told me to figure it out and didn't lend much (if any) help and from that point I was to take care of anything concerning the kids (his included) and I was to take care of the home. I do not think the man has cleaned a toilet in 22 years. 

His time off was time off for him and he would become frustrated if I tried to involve him. He started chasing other women, drinking heavy. Far from ideal. We knew we were heading towards a divorce at our 4 years point which is when he and his first wife divorced. I didn't want to put all of the children thru yet another divorce so what did we do to keep the marriage together? We had a child of our own. Husband has been more involved with our daughter than any of the other kids. He does really love her, I can see that. We are very disconnected, really is not much left of us at this point.

My counselor which is a German gentleman tells me men cannot see beyond themselves. He tells me they do not have the hormones to be any different and that men in general are very selfish beings. he tells me that if I divorce my husband that I might find someone new and think that I finally found love but once the love hormones settle back down the man will be back to the man he was before he fell in love. He knows all I have been thru and he doesn't feel divorce is the solution. He thinks I need to find my own happiness without consideration of my husband and find a life without him inside the marriage. I asked him if there were many women had had the same issues with their husbands and he said, "yes."

I look at my girlfriends who have been married over 20 years also. The women are not happy. They complain about how much weight their husbands have gained, how lazy they are, how they have not kept themselves up, how they don't help with the kids or the house. And some of them too are with men that drink too much as well.

I think it is a dream to think that you can find Mr Right. And what you get in the meantime of broken marriages is alot of hurt. Kids with half siblings, step siblings and that doesn't always work either.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

AVR1962 said:


> .....
> 
> My counselor which is a German gentleman tells me men cannot see beyond themselves. He tells me they do not have the hormones to be any different and that men in general are very selfish beings. he tells me that if I divorce my husband that I might find someone new and think that I finally found love but once the love hormones settle back down the man will be back to the man he was before he fell in love. He knows all I have been thru and he doesn't feel divorce is the solution. He thinks I need to find my own happiness without consideration of my husband and find a life without him inside the marriage. I asked him if there were many women had had the same issues with their husbands and he said, "yes."
> 
> ...


Men who come up with this nonsense about other men are irritiating enough, without passing themselves off as being authorities on the matter. They should stick to posting their nonsense on Facebook where it will do less harm.

There are relationahsip counselors who believe everything is always the man's fault. If that is the case, then it suggests women have no responsibility in the relationship. I am far worse off financially, physically, and mentally for being married. I am hanging in there and trying to make it work. Even a few weeks ago, I felt humble that husbands are so utterly selfless and I was not up to the task of complete sacracfice (then I came back to my senses).

When you are disappointed in your relationships, it is tempting to let those individuals and yourself off the hook. The best way to do this is to decide that wo/men are useless and selfish. Therefore you cannot be expected to make it work for them. Most men do not act like the ones you describe, that is their responsibility. Most women do not pick two duds in a row, but that is through good fortune as much as good judgement.

As for men, like your counselor, who peddle such nonsense...Imagine a woman saying the same thing about women (and there are plenty of them). Do you think she is being fair to you? Or just blaming her own faults on the shape of her genitals rather than herself and desperately trying to gain approval of the opposite sex? Find a counselor who is well balanced, not this one. 

You are in a rough place and I am sorry you have had such a hard time. Despite deserving self-respect, it is hard to maintain it at times like this. I wish you well.


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## Sun Catcher (Dec 6, 2013)

Adeline, Sorry this is so long, I do hope you find it helpful.



Adeline said:


> ?.... Basically, should I (or anyone here) simply learn to live with and fix current problems with a spouse, or leave and seek elsewhere and see if we can find more tolerable problems to put up with basically, haha. Or if things could truly be "better than this" in any given situation.
> stay and work on it if the other spouse is able and willing to do the same. Only if each of you are willing to work on it and give 100% each can you hope to achieve anything.
> 
> Anyways, liking the insight so far, I just keep thinking how my ex was completely different than my husband in almost every way. Work ethics, finances, personality, physique, morals, and yet they both brought turmoil in different ways. When I left my ex I felt so free and that I could be so happy with someone else. And I was so very happy with my husband for years, and especially that first year. I had no idea the road ahead of me though. I just wonder if me not being able to get over what he has done for over a year, even if things can be fixed, means that I should leave and find someone else so I don't carry that damage in this marriage or that I'd likely have to deal with some other brand of tumultuous conflict with another person, so i might as well stick it out and make the best of it with my current husband as long as things improve.
> ...


You're dreaming and living in a fantasy in your head. That won't get you what you are long for so might as well stay where you are. Only if you are willing to take time out, work on your career, your self and discover what your assets are only then you will be ready to seek out your soul mate. 

Perfection is in the eye of the beholder. I know he is perfect, perfect for me. Someone else for sure thinks he is bald, maybe a little pudgy with a permanent scowl. I love stroking his head. I know just how strong he really is and I also know he is the happiest man in the world and the scowl is just to keep other people away and his basic shyness, lol. 

There is no knight in shining armor who will come and effortlessly rescue you and you will live happily ever after. No, you have to work on it, but first work on yourself so you can give 100% AND be able to pick (next time around) the right man who is also looking to give 100% of himself. Then work together, give all, love deeply, always be respectful and listen. Listen to the words and actions, get to know him as you know yourself (this can only happen if you have worked on yourself first and healed). If he does the same you'll find you hardly need to communicate verbally on many things, lol. You will be in tune and bickering will be at a minimum. Myy experience is all of our misunderstandings end up to be almost silly and easily rectified. We hold no grudges and we don't keep things in and seethe over them (something I always did in past relationships).

Think about what you really want to do, stay and work on it, work on yourself and your marriage, if he is willing to do the same or end it. Leave on your own for whatever time it takes before even thinking of looking for another partner. Either way you have loads of work to do if you want happiness.


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## AlmostYoung (May 24, 2012)

AVR1962 said:


> We are a step family with his, mine and ours....what a mess! My daughters accepted husband but his sons did not accept me and that was an ongoing battle til we finally stopped talking to one another when the boys were adults.
> 
> I think it is a dream to think that you can find Mr Right. And what you get in the meantime of broken marriages is alot of hurt. Kids with half siblings, step siblings and that doesn't always work either.


Thank you for this post, AVR. You bring up valid points that the "jump ship when the going gets tough" crowd never tell you.

I guess the grass will always greener on the other side for some. 

Until they find out otherwise. Then it's on to the next yard, and the next, in a search for "happiness". So sad.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

AVR1962 said:


> ....
> 
> My counselor which is a German gentleman tells me men cannot see beyond themselves. He tells me they do not have the hormones to be any different and that men in general are very selfish beings...


Am I the only one who finds this questionable?


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## poppyseed (Dec 22, 2013)

AVR1962 said:


> His time off was time off for him and he would become frustrated if I tried to involve him. He started chasing other women, drinking heavy. Far from ideal. We knew we were heading towards a divorce at our 4 years point which is when he and his first wife divorced. I didn't want to put all of the children thru yet another divorce so what did we do to keep the marriage together? We had a child of our own. Husband has been more involved with our daughter than any of the other kids. He does really love her, I can see that. We are very disconnected, really is not much left of us at this point.
> 
> He knows all I have been thru and he doesn't feel divorce is the solution. He thinks I need to find my own happiness without consideration of my husband and find a life without him inside the marriage. I asked him if there were many women had had the same issues with their husbands and he said, "yes."
> 
> I look at my girlfriends who have been married over 20 years also. The women are not happy. They complain about how much weight their husbands have gained, how lazy they are, how they have not kept themselves up, how they don't help with the kids or the house. And some of them too are with men that drink too much as well.


Hi AVR

This interests me somehow.

I doubt if there are women who would be so needy wanting to stay with a man who's busy philandering unless these women do so just for the sake of her children. Not a very satisfactory reason to stay.

I often feel this is a fairly common outcome in a "traditional" type marriage - women stay at home as a caretaker - not mentally and emotionally independent without any sort of social status as a "MD" or "CEO" or "postal worker" etc. Men start losing respect in such women quickly as she resigns herself settling into a host of menial tasks cleaning after children and as you said, cleaning up the mess in the toilet after he's been and he hadn't even cleaned once over 20 years!!! 

I'm sure you mean to be a good woman/wife. But from his perspective, the kind of relationship has no value.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Well, I know no relationship is perfect, but I think my marriage is good, and SA's is, and some others here on TAM. And IRL there must be many more.

My marriage was one of the Knight Rescues Damsel stories, so it does happen.

I think the most important thing in a marriage is for each person to serve the other, for each partner to want to please the other. 

Try to be grateful for what you do like, and overlook the little things you don't. And lots of communication.


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

Mr The Other said:


> Am I the only one who finds this questionable?


I totally agree with you MTO. I really dislike this sort of generalisation, it is unhelpful at best, harmful to the extreme.

Personally I am (and always have been) surrounded by wonderful, amazing men. Selfish is not a word I would use to describe the men in my life.

My partner is an extraordinary man, he has a very high EQ, is not at all selfish and can very easily "see beyond himself".

Total rubbish IMHO.


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

poppyseed said:


> Hi AVR
> 
> This interests me somehow.
> 
> ...


Poppyseed, thank you for your reply. I have maintained a career and I do have active friendships. I do keep myself up and am not the slobby wife who sits around in sweatpants and talks on the phone all day. I keep up my house. I am the main parent involved with the kids and grandkids. I do have interests of my own and I would not consider myself needy. Infact, in a counseling session not too long ago even my husband told our counselor that he felt I was quite independent and felt at times I had no need for him. I do however, know what you are saying, I have seen it too. 

The marriage has not been satisfying and thru counseling I have put alot together. I think there is more than meets the eye and knowing and understanding what got me here and how it all connects is very important. I think those who just ship when the going gets hard without understanding what got them in the situation in the first place or only going to repeat the same scenario again in another relationship.

I am a sincere person that does look at myself and what I might be contributing and I am also the type that feels every stone has to be unturned and I know I have done all I can do before I walk away.


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

This might be a little confronting, but I've started to think that maybe marriages can only be as successful as the people within it are 'undamaged', or intelligent enough to identify the damage and work towards correcting it.

Childhood inflicts all sorts of pain, some of which takes a great deal of time to overcome, if ever. People end up choosing partners who in some way will inflict similar damage upon us time and again, while they do the same to their partner. The ability to learn from these repetitious episodes and grow beyond them together is not one everyone chooses to ever utilise.

DH and I came together in a spoken agreement to never divorce, to do whatever it took to stay together. Part of the reason we could do this was because we both have the same basic values. There have been very difficult points, and sometimes I felt despair, but I refused to give up, and I had faith in him that he would never give up either. So when I've asked him to do stuff like the 5 love languages, and other marriage exercises, he has, because he wants to be happy with me, and me be happy with him.


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

Mr The Other said:


> Men who come up with this nonsense about other men are irritiating enough, without passing themselves off as being authorities on the matter. They should stick to posting their nonsense on Facebook where it will do less harm.
> 
> There are relationahsip counselors who believe everything is always the man's fault. If that is the case, then it suggests women have no responsibility in the relationship. I am far worse off financially, physically, and mentally for being married. I am hanging in there and trying to make it work. Even a few weeks ago, I felt humble that husbands are so utterly selfless and I was not up to the task of complete sacracfice (then I came back to my senses).
> 
> ...


MrTheOther, thanks for your reply. Yes, I too have questioned some of the things this counselor has told me, this statement included. I have watched men since he said this and I do see men invested in their wives and their children. My sons-in-law are perfect examples. First session in Jan, I decided to no longer see him because of it. I think he was trying to get me to accept my husband as he is. He was telling me that I was the type to diagnose people which I thought was odd. The only diagnosing we talked about was me telling him that a counselor previously had told me my husband was a binge drinker, passive-aggressive and emotionally unavailable yet I was making a diagnosis? I have been trying to figure out behavior, I didn't even know what passive-aggressive was. Counselor was telling me that most women deal with the same issues and that by baling out that I will only repeat the same mistake til I understand myself which I have worked on. He told me that my husband will not change but that I could and what he wanted for me is to learn assertive behavior, expressing myself and setting boundaries along with accepting his behavior and separating myself from his behavior, if that makes sense. Counselor actually discouraged divorce, said by divorcing my husband that my family would be gone. This is the last little shred of family I have and that kind of tears at my heart to think about. Infact, I am sitting here in tears thinking about it.

Counselors helped me to understand that I married my parents and that my mother is narcissistic, that they were not available to me emotionally and I chose a man that would pick up where my parents left off. Yet with all that said he encouraged me, knowing my mother has cut me off, to have a relationship with my parents and as he said, "play with the snakes."

If we divorce that means our only bio child in this relationship will eventually have a stepmom and stepdad, parents will no longer be a combined family system for her. I have already been thru one divorce and know how children take sides and feel torn. Getting involved in another relationship means dealing with new stepchildren who may very well reject you and make it difficult on a relationship. I have already been the second wife and I know the skepticism the family feels. Been there, I have experienced it all. It is not alot of fun, divorce is no picnic!

If I go back to counseling which I probably will as this is still not at a point of resolve it will not be with the German gentleman. I think with any counselor you have to weed thru and take the good and leave the bad advise behind.


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

breeze said:


> This might be a little confronting, but I've started to think that maybe marriages can only be as successful as the people within it are 'undamaged', or intelligent enough to identify the damage and work towards correcting it.
> 
> Childhood inflicts all sorts of pain, some of which takes a great deal of time to overcome, if ever. People end up choosing partners who in some way will inflict similar damage upon us time and again, while they do the same to their partner. The ability to learn from these repetitious episodes and grow beyond them together is not one everyone chooses to ever utilise.
> 
> DH and I came together in a spoken agreement to never divorce, to do whatever it took to stay together. Part of the reason we could do this was because we both have the same basic values. There have been very difficult points, and sometimes I felt despair, but I refused to give up, and I had faith in him that he would never give up either. So when I've asked him to do stuff like the 5 love languages, and other marriage exercises, he has, because he wants to be happy with me, and me be happy with him.


Breeze, this is dead on target and something I did learn in counseling. We are a product of our past and not always do we understand what makes us tick and what makes us react as we do. It takes understand, truly understanding your childhood and too many of us want to avoid that as we see it as blame towards our parents. I know I did the same for years. My husband is still it that state where he cannot look at his childhood realistically.

I have seen 2 counselors in the past 2 1/2 years, on going almost weekly sessions and I have done alot of work on myself. Both mentioned to me but didn't go into depth that my husband and I have a Parent-Child relationship, something I have even mentioned to husband before I was ever counseled. What happens is you have a man who is highly intelligent and my husband is, this is someone who is book smart but does not develop proper social skills and to know his past he did not. He basically left home, joined the military where he then was told what to do which was perfect for him. Drinking then he found was a way for him to be comfortable socially as he had not developed friendships or relationships in general. He was one of those nerdy types. He knew he was not accepted in school and so his way thru was physically (football), jokes and pranks to try and get acceptance but never really connecting.

When we met we were both wounded. He needed help with his kids and I needed help with mine. we were both lonely as single parents with full custody of our children and so this came more of a relationship of convenience, or need, and as long as I focused on the kids things were fine but he was not available. He was in his own world much like a little boy at play.....perhaps not the best comparison.

Marriage doesn't make the communication and the comfort of relating happen just because you sign papers.That little boy who has never developed a relationships is still there keeping himself guarded and protected and only seeing me as the cruel ole "B" that is too demanding. So he does what he wants to do when I am away much like leaving a teenager at home and then expecting them to take the mature role of an adult. It is twisted I know. Not sure what the solution is as I have been able to see this but I cannot see to make it different than it is.

I do not think is far or even right for one person to carry the load while the other does not have to take responsibility. That is not a working marriage, that is an existence and not a very pleasurable one.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

Not perfect. But happy. I am very happy in my marriage and don't find it hard work at all. 

Life's too precious to waste it being unhappy. My husband has been my favourite person for 23 years.


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## brokeneric (Jan 27, 2014)

Perfect is in accepting the imperfect. You have to appreciate their endearing traits and understand their flaws.


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## Shiksagoddess (Jan 20, 2011)

There may not be the perfect relationship, but some are more perfect than others.


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## Thebes (Apr 10, 2013)

I don't think any relationship is perfect but some have so many serious problems they are doomed to fail. Cheating and financial problems seem to be the biggest problems that cause divorce. 

Even if you stay with someone if there is no improvement in any problems its still a failed relationship.


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