# No intimacy and no sex; going bananas and desperate for help!



## i've had enough (Jan 4, 2014)

This is my first post and it is a LONG one, so please don’t start reading it if you’re in a hurry! I’ve been reading TAM for a few months now, and have been very impressed by the sensible, compassionate, moderate, thoughtful and sympathetic replies that most people’s posts get, so I thought I’d jump in myself and ask for some help with the problem that led me to the site in the first place. I found it in the first place because I googled ‘wife not affectionate or intimate’, and TAM was what came up first. To begin with I was utterly staggered at the number of people who had shared the same problem as I have; now it has settled down to a long-term sadness / ‘aching’ feeling that the world is like it is, and that so many people are as unhappy as I am. I have worked out the cause, although not the solution, to some of my problems, and I can predict the responses some people will give, but it’s worth setting everything out anyway, to see if any of my experiences are unique. I am British, unlike most of the posters here, although I don’t think that makes any difference.

Anyway, here goes. I am 55 and my wife is 54 and we have been together since 1978. I only had one other girlfriend before my wife and I have never dated any other women except these two. I have never been unfaithful to my wife and I would lay quite a lot of money that she hasn’t been unfaithful to me either, but, paradoxically, in some ways I wish that weren’t true, because in her case the cause seems to be an utter withdrawal / detachment from emotional life - I fear that she isn’t interested in any men at all, me included. For a while I worried that she might be gay, but I think she is just asexual. To begin with we were definitely in love and I think it was mutual - she certainly swept me off my feet then, and the sexual attraction she had for me in 1978 is still pretty much undiminished, although I fear very much that the reverse might not be the case. I have pretty much always been the HD partner in the relationship, although for the first year or two there wasn’t much in it. But now I am certainly the HD one and she is LD to ‘No D’!

To begin with, our sex life was fantastic, with my wife being very much the more adventurous partner (I was a pretty conservative and inexperienced guy and she had dated a few more people than me, although still not many). Everything was great for maybe 4-5 years, and then the sex and the intimacy both seemed to subside. It is hard to say where that began - I can certainly not claim to be blameless, but it seemed to stem from a combination of things. My wife is and always has been an utter workaholic - she runs a school, and seldom comes home before 7-8 p.m., upon which she is extremely tired and goes to bed (to SLEEP!). We have two grown-up children aged 20 and 22, and there has always been a reason, since about 1986, why sex wasn’t easy to achieve - either I was out, or she was out, or she was tired, and then there was a 10-15 year period when the kids were around and it was difficult to get personal time, and now she is menopausal (I think coming to the end of it but it is still a factor). Whatever it is, there always seems to be a reason why we can’t be intimate. I tried years ago to encourage her to have a ‘date night’ with me, where we either just cuddled on the sofa or went to the cinema, or whatever, but that petered out because, frankly, I think she felt a bit silly doing it. But maybe she finds me physically revolting and doesn’t love me any more? I have always been tortured by that thought, although she denies it.

In the early years of our marriage I reacted to this isolation by finding my own activities - I restore classic cars, and so I always had plenty to occupy me. However, that actually contributed to the problem by increasing the amount of time we spend apart (she hates the cars), and it has always frustrated me that we spend so little time together, and the fact that she comes in late and goes to sleep early means that there is very little time for intimacy. I am a ‘touchy-feely’ kind of guy, and we have done tests in the past that said I had female characteristics and my wife male ones - I want sex but I’d like it to grow out of cuddling and a sense of arousal arising from the closeness of the cuddling. I suppose she hasn’t so much got male ones as none at all - what I actually get is ‘here it is - you’ve got half an hour and then I’m going to sleep’ about once a month if I am lucky (although at the time of writing it is 3 months since we had sex, which I think is the longest ever). Us having sex seems to depend on her feeling horny, and she doesn’t feel horny very often. I feel horny virtually every day but that’s my problem - her response is that I should just masturbate to solve the problem, and I do but it doesn’t solve the problem, in fact making me feel empty and miserable (and it’s not really what I expected marriage to be about).

In addition, my wife’s attitude is that as it is me that wants the sex I had better be the one who works at it - she just lies there and waits for me to arouse her, rather than participating actively. She literally does absolutely nothing nowadays except lie there - I might as well use a blow-up doll. Unsurprisingly I began to suffer from ED a few years back, but I find that Cialis solves the problem. However, she hates the idea of me taking it, and so I have to guess when I am going to ‘get lucky’ and take it without her knowing - which, when you are only having sex a few times a year, means a lot of wasted Cialis!

Despite all this I love her a lot (I am still besotted with her), and I *think* she loves me, although she is a very strong person and I get the impression that she doesn’t respect me a lot. She is certainly a much more cold and emotionless person than me, and doesn’t show or express any loving feelings towards me at all beyond linking her arm in mine while we are out walking, maybe once or twice a week (it’s such a big shock that I always notice it). The thing that depresses me most is that my wife was the most amazing kisser - she used to be able to make me literally go weak at the knees when she kissed me. But the last time she kissed me was probably 20 years ago.

She has always earned more than me, and we have a fair bit of debt which was largely run up by me running a business that failed. I am working to pay it off and am gradually doing so, but it needs her income as well if we aren’t to go bust in the short term, and it will take a while yet (years, not months). However, I am pretty sure this isn’t a big factor (although I feel terrible about it), as most of the things I am writing about pre-date the debt problems and have been ongoing for over 20 years. I have always worked at home (I was a writer until I started the business), and so I did most of the childcare and upbringing of our kids when they were younger because she seldom got in before 7-8 p.m., so I used to feed the kids, bath them and put them to bed, and then I used to restart my work while she came in and went straight to bed (another sex life killer!). The bit about me having female characteristics was very much to the fore then, and we used to listen to people talking about relationship issues and find that the gender roles (child carer versus career person) were diametrically reversed from how they were in most marriages. Some of my financial position has also stemmed from loss of income while I was a child carer, but it is not a good thing to discuss with my wife as she has very little sympathy with that viewpoint.

I think I am probably what is known as a ‘nice guy’ and a bit of a ‘loser’ as a consequence (I don’t know if you have the expression in the USA, but in England we’d say that I was a bit ‘wet’). I have read the stuff about ‘nice guys come last’, and it pretty much seems to sum me up. I think I probably need to ‘man up’ but frankly I haven’t got the first clue about how to go about it. I do know, however, that I am utterly, utterly miserable and have been so for most of my married life, and I really need to do something - I am entering what I might term ‘early old age’, and I am freaked out by the feeling that if I don’t sort my emotional and sex life out soon it will be too late.

I am sorry that that has been such a long post, but any suggestions will be gladly appreciated. From what I have seen about TAM I can expect some frank responses, and I don’t mind what people say - I don’t expect any punches to be pulled! Thanks for reading all this… with fingers crossed that some solutions arise from it!


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## YupItsMe (Sep 29, 2011)

So man up. End of story.


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

i've had enough said:


> But maybe she finds me physically revolting and doesn’t love me any more? I have always been tortured by that thought, although she denies it.
> 
> ....
> But the last time she kissed me was probably 20 years ago.


When you look at these two statements above I see the core of the problem right here.

Let's forget about sex for just a moment, because there are a lot of legitimate reasons to refuse sex.

But there are FAR fewer legitimate reasons to refuse intimacy like kissing. She used to enjoy kissing, but now hasn't kissed you in 20 years, yet she denies that she no longer finds you physically appealing? Ask her to explain that one point, if nothing else. Because the only message someone gets from that, whether they are men or women, is that their partner simply isn't attracted to them anymore. 



> _I really need to do something - I am entering what I might term ‘early old age’, and I am freaked out by the feeling that if I don’t sort my emotional and sex life out soon it will be too late._


Have you explained that to her? Have you told her how urgent this problem is? If you are not able to talk about these things with her frankly, then I strongly recommend you two go to marriage counseling, and I mean like yesterday.


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## sounhappy (Jul 15, 2012)

WOW! With just a few exceptions I could have written this. I don't think I'm "wet" but I definitely am the one in my marriage with the "female" leanings when it comes to intimacy. Sex for me always had started with physical touching and closeness and I still want it to be that way. My wife on the other hand, expects me to simply say "hay, let's have sex". It's very hard to even hear this coming from my lips. Other than the ages of the children, mine are still quite young, most everything else you describe is similar, the business closing, the late hours and imediate sleep time of the wife, everything. I still earn more than she, and she is 11 years my junior, but hours and type of work we do "allow" me to currently do more of the child rearing. In 2013 we had sex a total of 18 times. I won't even say how many times I've masterbated, and I feel more empty each time. One true advantage you have over me however, is that your wife is sexually more adventurous. Mine is anything but, whereas I am. Now that your children are grown finding time should be less an issue. Not that I'm an expert, but being sexually adventurous, I believe if I were you I would make a surprise date one weekend (assuming they are treated the same there), have everything done so she doesn't have to think about anything. Stress of details, just like work, prevent women from becoming horny. Enjoy the evening talking about ANYTHING but work, then spontaneously and aggressively move towards physical. Don't worry about the "intimacy". It sounds as though she actually wants you to be more agressive, to "man up" to use an American expression. Her built in adventurous nature will hopefully help you. Yes you're doing all the work now but if you repeat this a couple times a month you might be surprised. I do know that women become more sexually willing and active the more sexually active they actually are. Its kind of like priming a pump; a terrible analogy I know, but accurate. Show her you want her, not just sex. My wife told me this once. If my wife weren't so timid and conservative about sex this is exactly what I would do, and in fact dream of doing. Sadly for me, if I tried this her reply to me would simply be "what are you doing?" and I'd be made to feel a fool for trying something so "rediculous". But like I said, you have a clear advantage that I lack. Don't know if this helps or not but at the very least know that you're not alone in your frustrations.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Wow, I wouldn't call that a marriage at all. You say you're still besotted with her.... Why? What needs does she fulfill that makes you love her? Usually we love people who make us feel loved. She hasn't made you feel loved for some time now...are you sure it's love you feel?

Has the affection and intimacy between you two ever improved after confronting her or having a conversation, even for a short time?

One of the traps that nice guys fall into, is they don't push, they don't insist, they don't demand. The raise their hand and gently say... Hey I don't like this... And expect things to change. When it doesn't, they kind of give up. So what conversations have you had with about this total lack of intimacy? How does she excuse her lack of affection, lack of sex drive, and lack of care that you are hurting?


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## i've had enough (Jan 4, 2014)

YupItsMe said:


> So man up. End of story.


Trying to man up, but got to work out how, and if I can do it. Have started by buying No More Mr Nice Guy, but any practical hints appreciated...


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## i've had enough (Jan 4, 2014)

Theseus said:


> When you look at these two statements above I see the core of the problem right here.
> 
> Let's forget about sex for just a moment, because there are a lot of legitimate reasons to refuse sex.
> 
> ...


Sorry - forgot to specify before. Have had repeated attempts over the years to sort it out, been for counseling, although never as a couple, etc. Constantly take it up with her but always get the feeling I am being batted into the long grass, and that as she has arrived at a modus vivendi that works for her, she is reluctant to snap out of it, and as she is confident that I am not about to walk out on her she can ignore how I feel. Probably tried to sort it out 20 times over the years - it usually starts with me saying I can't go on any longer, then a big row, then me talking about the possibility of a break-up, then her saying I always threaten that, then a reconciliation and commitment to do something about it... which usually lasts a few weeks and then we are back where we were again. Her take on it is that she has what one counselor called a 'Don't Get Close Driver' - i.e. she avoids intimacy, not just with me but with everyone, as a consequence of her own lack of self-confidence and need to protect herself by erecting an invisible force field around herself (she has to do that in her professional capacity). I can accept that that's a coping strategy for her, but it doesn't work for me!


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## i've had enough (Jan 4, 2014)

sounhappy said:


> WOW! With just a few exceptions I could have written this. I don't think I'm "wet" but I definitely am the one in my marriage with the "female" leanings when it comes to intimacy. Sex for me always had started with physical touching and closeness and I still want it to be that way. My wife on the other hand, expects me to simply say "hay, let's have sex". It's very hard to even hear this coming from my lips. Other than the ages of the children, mine are still quite young, most everything else you describe is similar, the business closing, the late hours and imediate sleep time of the wife, everything. I still earn more than she, and she is 11 years my junior, but hours and type of work we do "allow" me to currently do more of the child rearing. In 2013 we had sex a total of 18 times. I won't even say how many times I've masterbated, and I feel more empty each time. One true advantage you have over me however, is that your wife is sexually more adventurous. Mine is anything but, whereas I am. Now that your children are grown finding time should be less an issue. Not that I'm an expert, but being sexually adventurous, I believe if I were you I would make a surprise date one weekend (assuming they are treated the same there), have everything done so she doesn't have to think about anything. Stress of details, just like work, prevent women from becoming horny. Enjoy the evening talking about ANYTHING but work, then spontaneously and aggressively move towards physical. Don't worry about the "intimacy". It sounds as though she actually wants you to be more agressive, to "man up" to use an American expression. Her built in adventurous nature will hopefully help you. Yes you're doing all the work now but if you repeat this a couple times a month you might be surprised. I do know that women become more sexually willing and active the more sexually active they actually are. Its kind of like priming a pump; a terrible analogy I know, but accurate. Show her you want her, not just sex. My wife told me this once. If my wife weren't so timid and conservative about sex this is exactly what I would do, and in fact dream of doing. Sadly for me, if I tried this her reply to me would simply be "what are you doing?" and I'd be made to feel a fool for trying something so "rediculous". But like I said, you have a clear advantage that I lack. Don't know if this helps or not but at the very least know that you're not alone in your frustrations.


Paradoxically, this is quite a reassuring reply. In a lot of ways it is horrible to hear that someone else is living the life I am leading, and I feel your pain too, but it also feels like there is strength in numbers, and I feel a bit less like a complete nutter. I have maybe overstated my wife's enthusiasm for sex - she was certainly adventurous early on, but those days are long gone (like, 1982), and it has been awful, really, for about the last 25 years.

Now she seems to have built up a shell around herself (she herself says she is 'dead from the neck down'), and her way of coping with life seems to be to avoid intimacy or sex completely - which, as I said, is driving me crazy because I can't work out if I am the cause of the problem or merely the innocent victim of it. I should also have mentioned earlier that we are temporarily apart, not because of relationship issues but because of circumstances. I am living in our vacation house in France until she can retire from her job in July, and we visit with each other in the school holidays and when I can get back to England - so she has just gone home and I won't now see her for 3 weeks. I had fondly imagined that this situation might lead to an increase in intimacy when we actually were together, but this has sadly not seemed to be the case - yet (the situation has only just started).


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

i've had enough said:


> Sorry - forgot to specify before. Have had repeated attempts over the years to sort it out, been for counseling, although never as a couple, etc. Constantly take it up with her but always get the feeling I am being batted into the long grass, and that as she has arrived at a modus vivendi that works for her, she is reluctant to snap out of it, and as she is confident that I am not about to walk out on her she can ignore how I feel. Probably tried to sort it out 20 times over the years - it usually starts with me saying I can't go on any longer, then a big row, then me talking about the possibility of a break-up, then her saying I always threaten that, then a reconciliation and commitment to do something about it... which usually lasts a few weeks and then we are back where we were again. Her take on it is that she has what one counselor called a 'Don't Get Close Driver' - i.e. she avoids intimacy, not just with me but with everyone, as a consequence of her own lack of self-confidence and need to protect herself by erecting an invisible force field around herself (she has to do that in her professional capacity). I can accept that that's a coping strategy for her, but it doesn't work for me!


people don't usually change unless there is real consequence.
people don't keep up with any change unless they fear not keeping up with change because of the consequence.


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## i've had enough (Jan 4, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> Wow, I wouldn't call that a marriage at all. You say you're still besotted with her.... Why? What needs does she fulfill that makes you love her? Usually we love people who make us feel loved. She hasn't made you feel loved for some time now...are you sure it's love you feel?
> 
> Has the affection and intimacy between you two ever improved after confronting her or having a conversation, even for a short time?
> 
> One of the traps that nice guys fall into, is they don't push, they don't insist, they don't demand. The raise their hand and gently say... Hey I don't like this... And expect things to change. When it doesn't, they kind of give up. So what conversations have you had with about this total lack of intimacy? How does she excuse her lack of affection, lack of sex drive, and lack of care that you are hurting?


I think this is a very penetrating assessment of the situation. As you say, I need to evaluate if it is love I am feeling, or if I have merely got used to things. I think it is, but as you point out there isn't much to found it on (well, to be fair she behaves according to her template of what a good wife does - she does embarrassingly much more housework than do, although partly because I spend a lot of my time paralyzed with depression, and she has also financed my business disasters (relatively) uncomplainingly. But unfortunately MY evaluation of what a good wife does involves a bit of intimacy, and this is notable by its absence. Maybe the reason for her physical withdrawal is that she feels nothing for me, in which case I probably need to leave the relationship. I have had so many ineffectual attempts to sort things out over the years that I have lost count - you are dead right to say that I gently raise my hand and say 'hey...', and I am aware of it and it eats me up. I am an author of language text books, and I don't know if you are familiar with Franz Kafka's story 'Vor dem Gesetz' ('Before the Law') - it is basically about a guy who sits outside a door that never opens all his life, periodically asking the door guard if he can go in. The guard always says no, and finally, as they guy is about to expire, he asks the guard why he has never seen anyone else go in through it. 'Because it was only for you', the guard says - i.e. the story is a parable for the fact that if we don't take life by the horns we will get screwed by it, and that certainly happened to Kafka (Before the Law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). And to me, so far...


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## i've had enough (Jan 4, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> Wow, I wouldn't call that a marriage at all. You say you're still besotted with her.... Why? What needs does she fulfill that makes you love her? Usually we love people who make us feel loved. She hasn't made you feel loved for some time now...are you sure it's love you feel?
> 
> Has the affection and intimacy between you two ever improved after confronting her or having a conversation, even for a short time?
> 
> One of the traps that nice guys fall into, is they don't push, they don't insist, they don't demand. The raise their hand and gently say... Hey I don't like this... And expect things to change. When it doesn't, they kind of give up. So what conversations have you had with about this total lack of intimacy? How does she excuse her lack of affection, lack of sex drive, and lack of care that you are hurting?


Just sent a reply to this but it has been held over by a moderator before it gets posted, I think because I had put a URL in it. However, the URL was to wikipedia(!), so I don't think there was a problem. Just wanted to say thanks, and that it is a useful and helpful post, in case you thought I was ignoring you (there goes the Nice Guy again!) (lol)


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## i've had enough (Jan 4, 2014)

chillymorn said:


> people don't usually change unless there is real consequence.
> people don't keep up with any change unless they fear not keeping up with change because of the consequence.


I fear you are probably right, and that I am going to need to get harder! Thanks...


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## ClimbingTheWalls (Feb 16, 2013)

Oh dear. I am afraid I have a barrage of questions:

1. You give your location as England/France. What's the deal here? Is your wife French? Where do you actually live? Why can you not always get away from France to be with your wife? Is France where you work?

2. When your wife was sexually adventurous all those years ago, what was your reaction?

3. What is your wife like physically? Does she care about her appearance, make up, clothing, keeping in shape etc?

4. Ditto for you (apart from caring about your make up!)

5. You say she is cold and emotionless. Did she ever show loving feelings towards you? Is she affectionate with your children or also distant?

6. You say your financial problems are not an issue with your wife but you also say that you cannot give her the "excuse" of having diminished income due to your child care responsibilities over the years. That tells me that if your financial mismatch was not the cause of the problem it is certainly a factor now. Did you and she ever discuss and agree the child care arrangements or did it just sort of happen due to the differing natures of your jobs? Are you making decent money now?

7. Why do you think she has a lack of self-confidence? Has she always had it?

8. Why does she hate the classic cars? Are you going to continue with that activity when you retire to France? Does it make any money?

9. Do the children still live at home?

10. If your wife is retiring in July how are you going to get the debts paid off? She's pretty young to be retiring. Will she then join you in France? Will you still be working? Do you think she will be happy living there, if so? Do you both speak French?

So sorry for all the questions, and do feel free not to respond to all of them if it is too much work. 

If I were married to a self-confessed "wet" husband who had never really pulled his weight financially and had then landed us in a lot of debt I would be full of resentment. So maybe she is, too. I agree with your conclusion, echoed by others, about the need to "man up". But as you say, the question is how. That's the reason for all my questions.


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## Getbusylivin (Dec 23, 2012)

I know exactly how you feel, it seems the man is always the one trying to change and make things better or admitting and taking all the blame,, I am again making a run at my wife and I get no initiated response or effort from her,, It's a crappy position to be in at this stage of a marriage,, But you are certainly not alone,, Women go through changes and some of them are not good


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## i've had enough (Jan 4, 2014)

ClimbingTheWalls said:


> Oh dear. I am afraid I have a barrage of questions:


Will answer them below or it will put them all in the quoted bit


ClimbingTheWalls said:


> So sorry for all the questions, and do feel free not to respond to all of them if it is too much work.
> 
> If I were married to a self-confessed "wet" husband who had never really pulled his weight financially and had then landed us in a lot of debt I would be full of resentment. So maybe she is, too. I agree with your conclusion, echoed by others, about the need to "man up". But as you say, the question is how. That's the reason for all my questions.


Your questions are perfectly valid and reasonable, and I'd probably have covered them in last night's post except that it was already ludicrously long, and it was 3 a.m. by the time I had finished writing it (of course, as I am living b y myself there isn't much else to do!). And I agree with the last bit above completely - I don't feel like I am exactly hot property on the marriage market. But that in turn hits my self-esteem and probably makes things even worse. And 'manning up' with my wife when I feel as if I am the architect of most of our problems just seems plain wrong.

Anyway, to answer your questions...

1. You give your location as England/France. What's the deal here? Is your wife French? Where do you actually live? Why can you not always get away from France to be with your wife? Is France where you work?

It's part of the debt thing. We sold our house at the beginning of the property crash in 2009 (that was my wife's - bad - decision - see below re. classic cars), and we have been renting ever since. However, we own the house in France, and so to cut costs I have come out here now and she is staying with her mother until she can retire in July. It's not from choice and it's a short-term arrangement.

2. When your wife was sexually adventurous all those years ago, what was your reaction?

I loved it and took part enthusiastically!

3. What is your wife like physically? Does she care about her appearance, make up, clothing, keeping in shape etc?

I think she is very good-looking for her age - she is about the same age as, and has always looked a bit like, Michelle Pfeiffer. Until recently she used to say the resemblance to Michelle was just flattery on my part, but in the last few years La Pfeiffer has gone downhill quite sharply and now I reckon my wife has the edge on her. She always used to be a 'tomboy' and didn't wear makeup or care about clothes, but as she got older she began to work on her appearance and so has not deteriorated significantly in appearance as she entered her 50s. Earlier on she had weight problems, but these were never extreme. However, they did bring about self-esteem issues which I reckon are part of the sex drive problem.

4. Ditto for you (apart from caring about your make up!)

I am about the right weight - maybe 10-20 lbs over - 6 feet tall and not an ugly guy, but probably not beautiful either. I don't work out but we both enjoy hiking, and where we have the house in France is in the Alps so the terrain is ideally suited. My wife professes to like my appearance, and always helps me buy clothes so that I look good for her (and probably because I haven't got a clue what to buy and would probably come home in terrible things). Earlier on I used to wear coveralls most of the time because I used to divide my time between the text books and the car restoration, but since my wife started taking more care of her appearance I have tried to too, as it seemed the sensible and fair thing to do (how can I expect her to be attracted to me if I am an ugly pig). I am bald or nearly so, but she says she doesn't care, and I certainly don't apart from the fact that it means you bang your head and cut it a lot (I bet you thought hair was for warmth - it isn't!).

5. You say she is cold and emotionless. Did she ever show loving feelings towards you? Is she affectionate with your children or also distant?

That's a hard one. No, not really. Her mother is the same, and she has always acted like it's not cool to do that kind of stuff. Even when we dated we never asked each other out (she'd have said that was wet), but just pretended to bump into each other at discos etc. She has never said she loved me and if I said the same to her she'd tell me I was wet. She basically just doesn't 'do' emotion. Possibly more so towards the kids, but again she isn't exactly touchy-feely.

6. You say your financial problems are not an issue with your wife but you also say that you cannot give her the "excuse" of having diminished income due to your child care responsibilities over the years. That tells me that if your financial mismatch was not the cause of the problem it is certainly a factor now. Did you and she ever discuss and agree the child care arrangements or did it just sort of happen due to the differing natures of your jobs? Are you making decent money now?

I think you are probably right. I have been self-employed since I was 30, and I think she has always resented the freedom that that gave me, while she had to provide the steady, ongoing income. However, that was the career that she wanted - she was always very motivated to manage schools and be a leader of people, whereas for me the most important thing was my independence and freedom. The problem with being self-employed is that there are always troughs and peaks in one's income, and so it has proved. But I have also been above-averagely unlucky - not many people are faced with and have to cope with the total disappearance of their industry (see answer at 8 below), and we both thought, when I started the car business, that I had been clever and pulled a rabbit out of the hat to solve a potentially disastrous situation. The child care happened as a bit of a surprise, really. For a couple of years I used to do supply teaching to pay for a child minder, and then we realized that I was making exactly what we paid the child minder, when I could have been looking after our own kids. So I stopped work and did so, and it was the happiest time of my life. I don't think my wife particularly liked that fact either, but as she was completely unable to do it without giving up her career the situation sort of invented itself. I am 'sort-of' making decent money now (see last reply below).

7. Why do you think she has a lack of self-confidence? Has she always had it?

Her mother told her she was fat and ugly, and she says that's where it came from. She has always thought she was ugly until recently, and I am sure this has been a contributory factor to the low sex drive.

8. Why does she hate the classic cars? Are you going to continue with that activity when you retire to France? Does it make any money?

O.K., this is a long one. She has never liked old cars for sensible reasons like they are noisy, drafty, unsafe, break down, etc., but I love old things (not just cars) and have a lot of 30s-50s items - car parts, but also old fashioned household items like coffee machines, kitchenalia, clocks, radios, chairs, etc - literally thousands and thousands of them (I spent December ferrying them down to France). She doesn't like those either.

So throughout our lives we have swung between owning a house with a big shed where I could keep my stuff (which she invariably hated, because in England to get a house with a big shed you have to get a big house, and we didn't need one of those and she didn't like them). So we would get a big house and shed for a few years, she'd hate it, and then we'd sell it and buy a tiny house, which would mean that I had to rent a shed, which cost me a fortune and made me miserable. It's also a worse deal, because if you have a big house the value goes up and you get free storage, whereas if you rent it is just dead money. Selling our house in 2009 was a catastrophic decision, because although the value probably dropped a bit from 09-11, we had a very cheap, fixed mortgage which would have lasted indefinitely, and also, for the last year or two the value of the house has been going up again. So selling it condemned us both to paying out a lot extra in rent (for my business premises too), and also to losing the increase in value we'd have got from the house.

Until 2004 the cars and parts were just a hobby, and my job was writing language text books for schools (I have written 150 of them). I did this at home, so I had ample opportunity to do up the old cars and/or look after the kids, and do the work at other times - and of course, as my wife didn't come in until 8 p.m. it didn't make any difference to her. Until the kids were born I used to work on cars when it was sunny and work on the books when it was raining; when they were born I stopped doing the cars for 10 years because there was no time. However, in 2004 the languages text book market crashed, partly because the British government took languages out of the curriculum (*******s), which killed sales stone dead, and partly because the internet killed book sales anyway. So I needed to find a job, and the obvious thing to do was to make my hobby my job. We were in one of our phases of living in a big house, and so there was enough room to run the business from the premises. However, from Day 1 the business didn't really pay, and the reasons are all 'Mr Nice Guy' ones - I used to end up doing restorations for people for too little money, I paid the people who worked for me too much, and I generally just wasn't hard enough to be a businessman. Of course, my softness on others rebounded on my wife, as she has pointed out, and one of the things I have already read in the Nice Guy books is that Nice Guys' actions often have nasty consequences because they can't face up to hard things and so there are bad spin-offs, and this is true. By 2009 the house was fully-mortgaged and prices were dropping, so my wife insisted we sell it and rent. The problem with that is that it killed any chance my business might have had of being profitable, because the costs shot up, and sure enough, I spent 4 years turning over very good money but paying all of it out in rental, wages and travel costs (because the workshop was 20 miles away and we pay $8 a gallon for fuel here). So the move killed the business stone dead, although it was probably moribund anyway. I've answered the last two bits of your question - it was supposed to make me money but didn't really, and no, I am not doing it any more, although I own a couple of classic cars that don't need restoring. I do have one more vehicle to restore and sell, a VW split screen camper which will be worth a lot more than I have spent on it and will help pay the debts off. Funny thing is, when she was 19 my wife would have loved it, but now she hates the fact that it is nosy, drafty, dangerous, smelly, has terrible handling, has no airbags, only lap seat belts, does 50 mph and gets terrible gas mileage. So I will finish doing it up when spring comes, and sell it.

9. Do the children still live at home?

No, they are both at university (and so are still costing us money). They lived with us in the vacations until we stopped renting the English house in November, but they are both in their final year and won't come to France with us.

10. If your wife is retiring in July how are you going to get the debts paid off? She's pretty young to be retiring. Will she then join you in France? Will you still be working? Do you think she will be happy living there, if so? Do you both speak French?

I have an enormous collection of car accessories and parts (like, 10,000 of them), and I am selling them to pay off the debt (they are also partly how the debt was acquired but they have proved to be a very good investment), and I am selling them on eBay while I am here. There is plenty to pay off the debts, but it takes time to sell stuff in that quantity, hence me saying it will not be done by the time she comes out here. She will be able to claim a pension because she has been paying enhanced contributions and the British teachers' pension scheme is very generous. It also allows you to start taking it out when you are 55. So she will be financially independent but will no longer be able to help me, which is kind of a deadline for me. The house here is paid for and cost virtually nothing anyway (property in France is cheap whereas property in England is not - this place cost around 1/10th as much as a similar place in England would have). Yes, we both speak fluent French - as mentioned above, I used to write French text books, and she is a French graduate and spent time at Grenoble university, which is near here. And yes, I think we will be happy living here - we have owned the house for around 15 years and have lots of friends in the area already.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Have you been to MMSLP? You'll find some more specifics and support on "how" to man up on the blog and forums there. 

Your wife, obviously, is not sexually attracted to you. Whether or not she CAN be remains to be seen. If you want to put in the effort of "manning up," then do it. But do it and realize that, while you might end up improving yourself in many ways, it is no guarantee that it will change your sex life.

It sounds to me like your wife is willing to accept her total lack of desire. But does she know this is killing you? Does she know you have turned to anonymous internet forums for companionship and advice? 

As her if she loves you. Then tell her you are very, very ill and the only way you can get better is for her to work on this WITH you. Do not hold anything back from trying to make her understand--including printing out what your wrote here and showing it to her. If she still says no, then you have to put yourself first, period. Don't do what is best for your marriage, do what is best for you.


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## i've had enough (Jan 4, 2014)

Getbusylivin said:


> I know exactly how you feel, it seems the man is always the one trying to change and make things better or admitting and taking all the blame,, I am again making a run at my wife and I get no initiated response or effort from her,, It's a crappy position to be in at this stage of a marriage,, But you are certainly not alone,, Women go through changes and some of them are not good


Yes, I can't decide if I'm the one who needs to make the changes because I should (no way I am perfect), or if it is part of my 'wetness'!


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## i've had enough (Jan 4, 2014)

GettingIt said:


> Have you been to MMSLP? You'll find some more specifics and support on "how" to man up on the blog and forums there.
> 
> Your wife, obviously, is not sexually attracted to you. Whether or not she CAN be remains to be seen. If you want to put in the effort of "manning up," then do it. But do it and realize that, while you might end up improving yourself in many ways, it is no guarantee that it will change your sex life.
> 
> ...


Thanks - hadn't been to MMSLP but looking at it now...

Re. wife not being sexually attracted to me - I know it is probably staring me in the face that she isn't, but I like to kid myself (because we all clutch at straws, don't we?) that it is a 'generic' problem with her libido and not specifically me. However, you saying this makes me think I am probably wrong...

Last paras - I am planning to talk it over with her next time I see her, suggest we go for counseling together (easier when I am in England than vice-versa), and definitely just show her this whole thread. I have not written anything here that I wouldn't want her to see, or, in the main, that I haven't said to her before. But the answers (like this one) are what will be useful, and the more opinions I have as to what the problem is and how to solve it, the better. I just hope I don't get a whole load of people saying there's nothing wrong with me and they don't know what I am moaning about (lol)...


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

She has never said she loves you? In your whole marriage? That is astounding to me. And it doesn't sound like she shows you she loves you either, except I suppose by not leaving. 

Your wife sounds like she has very serious issues with intimacy and vulnerability. This concern about being 'wet' is really odd in a 50 year old woman. She sounds like she's arrested at age 13 or so, emotionally speaking. 

She's totally closed off and apparently content to remain so. 

And I agree with Anon Pink, what's to be besotted with here? How can you love someone who gives nothing back?


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## ClimbingTheWalls (Feb 16, 2013)

Thank you for your comprehensive reply to my questions. I have a few thoughts but being a fellow Brit it is past my bedtime so I will ruminate and come back to you with comments.


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## ClimbingTheWalls (Feb 16, 2013)

i've had enough said:


> I don't feel like I am exactly hot property on the marriage market. But that in turn hits my self-esteem and probably makes things even worse. And 'manning up' with my wife when I feel as if I am the architect of most of our problems just seems plain wrong.


I get where you are coming from, but you definitely need to work on your self esteem. Maybe pick a little thing you are not happy with and work on that. Baby steps.



> Anyway, to answer your questions...
> 
> 1. You give your location as England/France. What's the deal here? Is your wife French? Where do you actually live? Why can you not always get away from France to be with your wife? Is France where you work?
> 
> It's part of the debt thing. We sold our house at the beginning of the property crash in 2009 (that was my wife's - bad - decision - see below re. classic cars), and we have been renting ever since. However, we own the house in France, and so to cut costs I have come out here now and she is staying with her mother until she can retire in July. It's not from choice and it's a short-term arrangement.


So you are not the only one who messes up financially. Good. Well, obviously not actually _good_, but at least it levels the playing field a bit. Not that anyone wants to go round pointing fingers but goes to show we all make mistakes.


> 2. When your wife was sexually adventurous all those years ago, what was your reaction?
> 
> I loved it and took part enthusiastically!


OK - so that would not appear to be the cause of any issues.



> 3. What is your wife like physically? Does she care about her appearance, make up, clothing, keeping in shape etc?
> 
> I think she is very good-looking for her age - she is about the same age as, and has always looked a bit like, Michelle Pfeiffer. Until recently she used to say the resemblance to Michelle was just flattery on my part, but in the last few years La Pfeiffer has gone downhill quite sharply and now I reckon my wife has the edge on her. She always used to be a 'tomboy' and didn't wear makeup or care about clothes, but as she got older she began to work on her appearance and so has not deteriorated significantly in appearance as she entered her 50s. Earlier on she had weight problems, but these were never extreme. However, they did bring about self-esteem issues which I reckon are part of the sex drive problem.


Do you think you might need to make a bit more effort in bolstering her body confidence? Not just by saying that she looks good, but showing her. Flirting with her. Even if she blows you off or says you are being ridiculous there's not many women that don't secretly feel pleased if their man finds them pretty/sexy/attractive. Oh, and I personally find it really annoying if I am frequently told I look like someone else - It's nicer to be liked for oneself. Hubby scored major brownie points with me at a NYE party by saying "Do you like being the prettiest girl in Homesville?" Clearly I'm not but the compliment was good and I said "I'm glad you think I am." Cheesy. Maybe. But it worked.



> 4. Ditto for you (apart from caring about your make up!)
> 
> I am about the right weight - maybe 10-20 lbs over - 6 feet tall and not an ugly guy, but probably not beautiful either. I don't work out but we both enjoy hiking, and where we have the house in France is in the Alps so the terrain is ideally suited. My wife professes to like my appearance, and always helps me buy clothes so that I look good for her (and probably because I haven't got a clue what to buy and would probably come home in terrible things). Earlier on I used to wear coveralls most of the time because I used to divide my time between the text books and the car restoration, but since my wife started taking more care of her appearance I have tried to too, as it seemed the sensible and fair thing to do (how can I expect her to be attracted to me if I am an ugly pig). I am bald or nearly so, but she says she doesn't care, and I certainly don't apart from the fact that it means you bang your head and cut it a lot (I bet you thought hair was for warmth - it isn't!).


That all sounds pretty positive. If you could do with shedding the odd pound it would be a good idea to work on it while you and your wife are apart. The clothing thing is good so long as she isn't subliminally dressing you like a grandfather. If you wear boring white underwear at her behest that is an area where you might consider taking a stand, though. Don't buy anything silly but the kind of thing you would send a 10 year old boy to prep school with is not attractive.



> 5. You say she is cold and emotionless. Did she ever show loving feelings towards you? Is she affectionate with your children or also distant?
> 
> That's a hard one. No, not really. Her mother is the same, and she has always acted like it's not cool to do that kind of stuff. Even when we dated we never asked each other out (she'd have said that was wet), but just pretended to bump into each other at discos etc. She has never said she loved me and if I said the same to her she'd tell me I was wet. She basically just doesn't 'do' emotion. Possibly more so towards the kids, but again she isn't exactly touchy-feely.


Ugh. This is where you probably do need to man up. Telling her you love her is not wet. At all. You don't need to go all soppy if that does not float her boat, but when discussing marriage issues I think you need to make sure she understands that you do love her and want things to work out. What was her reaction when you proposed?


> 6. You say your financial problems are not an issue with your wife but you also say that you cannot give her the "excuse" of having diminished income due to your child care responsibilities over the years. That tells me that if your financial mismatch was not the cause of the problem it is certainly a factor now. Did you and she ever discuss and agree the child care arrangements or did it just sort of happen due to the differing natures of your jobs? Are you making decent money now?
> 
> I think you are probably right. I have been self-employed since I was 30, and I think she has always resented the freedom that that gave me, while she had to provide the steady, ongoing income. However, that was the career that she wanted - she was always very motivated to manage schools and be a leader of people, whereas for me the most important thing was my independence and freedom. The problem with being self-employed is that there are always troughs and peaks in one's income, and so it has proved. But I have also been above-averagely unlucky - not many people are faced with and have to cope with the total disappearance of their industry (see answer at 8 below), and we both thought, when I started the car business, that I had been clever and pulled a rabbit out of the hat to solve a potentially disastrous situation. The child care happened as a bit of a surprise, really. For a couple of years I used to do supply teaching to pay for a child minder, and then we realized that I was making exactly what we paid the child minder, when I could have been looking after our own kids. So I stopped work and did so, and it was the happiest time of my life. I don't think my wife particularly liked that fact either, but as she was completely unable to do it without giving up her career the situation sort of invented itself. I am 'sort-of' making decent money now (see last reply below).


 I am self employed so I get where you are coming from. It seems to me like you being the child carer has caused all sorts of resentment within your wife, even if it was the only practical thing to do. When she retires would you consider perhaps getting a pet for her so she can unleash any repressed nurturing side? Does she like animals?


> 7. Why do you think she has a lack of self-confidence? Has she always had it?
> 
> Her mother told her she was fat and ugly, and she says that's where it came from. She has always thought she was ugly until recently, and I am sure this has been a contributory factor to the low sex drive.


Ah. The mother. Nightmare. And now she is living with the mother while you are in France. The sooner that situation ends the better. Even more reason for you to make sure you show her you find her good looking and attractive.



> 8. Why does she hate the classic cars? Are you going to continue with that activity when you retire to France? Does it make any money?
> 
> O.K., this is a long one. She has never liked old cars for sensible reasons like they are noisy, drafty, unsafe, break down, etc., but I love old things (not just cars) and have a lot of 30s-50s items - car parts, but also old fashioned household items like coffee machines, kitchenalia, clocks, radios, chairs, etc - literally thousands and thousands of them (I spent December ferrying them down to France). She doesn't like those either.
> 
> ...


Sounds like you are good with your hands and have an eye for an investment in that field (as per 10 below). A pity you couldn't make the business work - maybe with the benefit of hindsight you could continue doing something on a smaller scale? And be a bit more ruthless?



> 9. Do the children still live at home?
> 
> No, they are both at university (and so are still costing us money). They lived with us in the vacations until we stopped renting the English house in November, but they are both in their final year and won't come to France with us.


I hope they find decent jobs and get off your payroll quick.



> 10. If your wife is retiring in July how are you going to get the debts paid off? She's pretty young to be retiring. Will she then join you in France? Will you still be working? Do you think she will be happy living there, if so? Do you both speak French?
> 
> I have an enormous collection of car accessories and parts (like, 10,000 of them), and I am selling them to pay off the debt (they are also partly how the debt was acquired but they have proved to be a very good investment), and I am selling them on eBay while I am here. There is plenty to pay off the debts, but it takes time to sell stuff in that quantity, hence me saying it will not be done by the time she comes out here. She will be able to claim a pension because she has been paying enhanced contributions and the British teachers' pension scheme is very generous. It also allows you to start taking it out when you are 55. So she will be financially independent but will no longer be able to help me, which is kind of a deadline for me. The house here is paid for and cost virtually nothing anyway (property in France is cheap whereas property in England is not - this place cost around 1/10th as much as a similar place in England would have). Yes, we both speak fluent French - as mentioned above, I used to write French text books, and she is a French graduate and spent time at Grenoble university, which is near here. And yes, I think we will be happy living here - we have owned the house for around 15 years and have lots of friends in the area already.


She will be financially independent but won't have enough money to help pay off the debts. What will you be doing for money? Continuing to work? Or are you one of the self employed who built up a good pension pot. (Rare as hens' teeth). My main concern about the situation ongoing is that if your wife is constantly at home rather than concentrating on her work it will give her ample opportunity to concentrate on your perceived shortcomings. It will also give you ample opportunity to concentrate on the problems in the marriage and unless you and she confront them head on at an early stage I foresee a future of nothing but sweeping things under the rug.

I agree with the posters who are somewhat incredulous that you are still besotted with her. Of course you cannot change her behaviour, only yours, but it seems to me that she gives you only stick and no carrot. If I were you I would be working very hard to get myself financially independent and then discuss the other problems when you have a level financial playing field. Maybe I have misunderstood, but I have formed the impression that she is the one who would be most able to walk out and support herself, by a long chalk.


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## i've had enough (Jan 4, 2014)

ClimbingTheWalls said:


> I get where you are coming from, but you definitely need to work on your self esteem. Maybe pick a little thing you are not happy with and work on that. Baby steps.


Agree totally. When I am feeling lucid I know I should have good self-esteem (I've written more langauge text books, and they have sold in larger numbers, than virtually anyone else). Trouble is, I didn't make enough money, and society (although not I!) seems to care most about money where social status is concerned. Working on the issue, anyway...



ClimbingTheWalls said:


> So you are not the only one who messes up financially. Good. Well, obviously not actually _good_, but at least it levels the playing field a bit. Not that anyone wants to go round pointing fingers but goes to show we all make mistakes.


I should have said that before. My wife has a very strong work and service ethic, and believes that you should work 9-5 and earn a good living, and that unearned income such as house inflation, share money, selling stuff for more than you paid for it, etc., is immoral. However, when you are self-employed you have little choice but to do that, and so I have done. I am a pathological collector, and it struck me a few years back that all collectors ultimately turn into dealers, because a) they have too much stuff; b) they need money to buy more; and c) if the price of what you have shoots up and you need money, you are pretty much locked into selling it - even if you didn't want to! The trouble with my wife's attitude is that you never make *that* much money - even on a headteacher's pay. She has been cautious and made adequate money; I have taken risks and sometimes made too much and sometimes nowhere near enough.



ClimbingTheWalls said:


> Do you think you might need to make a bit more effort in bolstering her body confidence? Not just by saying that she looks good, but showing her. Flirting with her. Even if she blows you off or says you are being ridiculous there's not many women that don't secretly feel pleased if their man finds them pretty/sexy/attractive. Oh, and I personally find it really annoying if I am frequently told I look like someone else - It's nicer to be liked for oneself. Hubby scored major brownie points with me at a NYE party by saying "Do you like being the prettiest girl in Homesville?" Clearly I'm not but the compliment was good and I said "I'm glad you think I am." Cheesy. Maybe. But it worked.


I love the NYE party story - we spent NYE with some French friends and I resisted the temptation to eat snails (wife ate them, but I am a former vegetarian - yes, fits in with the Nice Guy thing - and I just couldn't bring myself to do it.

Anyway, I *think* I have this one covered now, and that it is no longer a problem. As I said before, she used to think she was fat and ugly but now doesn't, and has accepted that she looks good for her age (which she does). I do compliment her often, and when we are in the supermarket I say things like 'I have been all round the shop looking to see if I could find any more elegant 50-somethings, but there were none and so I came back to you'. She likes that, and it also fits in with her sense of humour (and it happens to be true too!). Take your point about not liking being compared with other people, but Michelle Pfeiffer is O.K. because she is an icon. Apart from Courteney Cox (who also looks similar) she's the only person I have ever compared my wife with, though, and she's O.K. with that because they both demonstrably do look like her (similar facial structure, etc.). If it had been Brigitte Bardot or someone that I was comparing her to (i.e. someone who looked totally different), I'd have been in deep doo-doos. But I am genuinely most attracted to the kind of women who look like my wife (which is why I married her).



ClimbingTheWalls said:


> That all sounds pretty positive. If you could do with shedding the odd pound it would be a good idea to work on it while you and your wife are apart. The clothing thing is good so long as she isn't subliminally dressing you like a grandfather. If you wear boring white underwear at her behest that is an area where you might consider taking a stand, though. Don't buy anything silly but the kind of thing you would send a 10 year old boy to prep school with is not attractive.


No, she likes me to dress like a successful middle-aged man (which sadly I am probably not) - M&S Collezione stuff and things like that. Not too wacky, just classy and nice looking. I wouldn't be able to buy the right stuff, so it is good that she helps me, and the overall effect is to make me look younger and more successful than I really am. Underwear is all Pierre Cardin, so no problem there (I get it cheap online!).



ClimbingTheWalls said:


> Ugh. This is where you probably do need to man up. Telling her you love her is not wet. At all. You don't need to go all soppy if that does not float her boat, but when discussing marriage issues I think you need to make sure she understands that you do love her and want things to work out. What was her reaction when you proposed?


Not sure I did actually propose - it kind of just happened. If I did it would have been along the lines of 'no-one else wants you, and I'm an ugly pig so no-one else wants me, so how about we bow to the inevitable and stick together?'. We've moved on a bit from there but still have no proper way of expressing our feelings for each other (but then again, at least from her point of view, perhaps there aren't any).



ClimbingTheWalls said:


> I am self employed so I get where you are coming from. It seems to me like you being the child carer has caused all sorts of resentment within your wife, even if it was the only practical thing to do. When she retires would you consider perhaps getting a pet for her so she can unleash any repressed nurturing side? Does she like animals?


I think the child caring did cause some resentment - she was a bit possessive about the kids to begin with. What made it worse that I was once on Woman's Hour, talking about bringing up kids and my role, and I can tell you that went down like a rat sandwich with her! And I in fact found that being a 'stay-at-home-dad' was a lot more fun than going out to work, the only drawback being that I had to work AS WELL, but being able to do my work between 9.30 a.m. and 2.50 p.m., and then after 8 p.m. was still a lot better than 9-5 (or, in the case of a primary headteacher, 7 a.m. - 8 p.m.).



ClimbingTheWalls said:


> Ah. The mother. Nightmare. And now she is living with the mother while you are in France. The sooner that situation ends the better. Even more reason for you to make sure you show her you find her good looking and attractive.


November and December were even worse, because I was there too! That said, as mothers-in-law go, she is pretty good, uncritical and helpful.



ClimbingTheWalls said:


> Sounds like you are good with your hands and have an eye for an investment in that field (as per 10 below). A pity you couldn't make the business work - maybe with the benefit of hindsight you could continue doing something on a smaller scale? And be a bit more ruthless?


I still do do a bit of car restoration, but as it isn't my main job I have the luxury of being able only to take on jobs that are worth doing, from people I like and know will pay me properly. Funny thing is, that basically means I am only taking work from other 'Nice Guys' - I feel I can't charge them what I need to, but they feel they must pay me more than I am asking. Works well, but of course there aren't many around, and so it wouldn't be a viable business plan on a large scale. And it is absolutely vital that I do it myself and don't sub it out to anyone else - that was a disaster, because I found that the people I subbed work to invariably weren't Mr Nice Guys!



ClimbingTheWalls said:


> I hope they find decent jobs and get off your payroll quick.


Me too! Luckily they are doing well, and I think they will.



ClimbingTheWalls said:


> She will be financially independent but won't have enough money to help pay off the debts. What will you be doing for money? Continuing to work? Or are you one of the self employed who built up a good pension pot. (Rare as hens' teeth). My main concern about the situation ongoing is that if your wife is constantly at home rather than concentrating on her work it will give her ample opportunity to concentrate on your perceived shortcomings. It will also give you ample opportunity to concentrate on the problems in the marriage and unless you and she confront them head on at an early stage I foresee a future of nothing but sweeping things under the rug.


It is a bit of a worry. I have industrial quantities of stuff, but realistically a lot of that needs to go to pay off the debts. But I should still be able approximately to match her income by selling what's left pretty much indefinitely, and that's all I feel I need to do, morally. And we don't need a lot of money here because the weather is warm, the council tax is next to nothing, and even the water bill is 1/10th as much as it was in the U.K. Even ski-ing is cheap! In England we lived in Devon, which has an incredibly bad climate (3rd wettest county in 2nd wettest country in Europe), and bad weather = high costs, because you have to spend money to entertain yourself. In addition I still have royalties coming in from the text books, and although they are now hundreds rather than thousands, twice a year, every little helps (to quote Tesco's).

I am a bit worried about the increased time together, but in fact up to now the holidays have been the best bit - we get on well when we spend time together, albeit in a completely platonic way.



ClimbingTheWalls said:


> I agree with the posters who are somewhat incredulous that you are still besotted with her. Of course you cannot change her behaviour, only yours, but it seems to me that she gives you only stick and no carrot. If I were you I would be working very hard to get myself financially independent and then discuss the other problems when you have a level financial playing field. Maybe I have misunderstood, but I have formed the impression that she is the one who would be most able to walk out and support herself, by a long chalk.


In a lot of ways she is an amazing person - runs a large and successful school, puts up with my plastic and bakelite junk cluttering the place up, supports my financial indiscretions, smooths out the peaks and troughs in my income, gives me fashion advice and doesn't moan if I don't follow it, is a fantastic mother to the kids, keeps a good and tidy house, cooks brilliantly (although I don't appreciate this at all because I am completely uninterested in food), doesn't moan at most of my mistakes, puts up with dangerous, drafty and unreliable old cars, etc., etc., etc. (what she puts up with is a pretty long list). And she looks as hot as hell. The only thing lacking is any form of physical or emotional interaction...


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## ClimbingTheWalls (Feb 16, 2013)

What on earth do you do when you spend time together during the holidays?

You don't have sex. You don't do dates because she thinks that's silly. But you must do something that is mutually satisfying since you say the holiday times are the best and you get on well.

I think you are probably right in your assumption that your wife has found a modus vivendi that suits her and sees no reason to change since you are not going to walk out. You've threated in the past, but haven't, and nothing has really changed.

However, she will soon be retiring and you will be spending all your time together. Maybe that will be make or break. When you discuss counselling perhaps you could tell her that you can't live like this any more. That while she was working all those long hours the fact that there was no intimacy was at least explainable (if not satisfactory) but once she is retired there is simply no excuse. Constantly having her physical presence but not any kind of emotional presence will be intolerable and you are actually prepared to leave if things don't improve. (Assuming you are indeed actually prepared.)

I wish you luck with all of this. Entrenched habits are very, very hard to break and there has to be a real effort on both sides.


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## i've had enough (Jan 4, 2014)

ClimbingTheWalls said:


> What on earth do you do when you spend time together during the holidays?
> 
> You don't have sex. You don't do dates because she thinks that's silly. But you must do something that is mutually satisfying since you say the holiday times are the best and you get on well.
> 
> ...


Good question - mostly we do hiking and house renovation together - house needed doing up when we got it and we are both a bit slow at that kind of stuff. But the hours will indeed be long when we are together all the time. Which means that I definitely have to bite the bullet - or I am going to have a very lonely old age!


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## ClimbingTheWalls (Feb 16, 2013)

I don't really have much to add at this stage, but will be interested to see what thoughts others may have.


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