# Woman I've been dating suddenly cooled off almost completely. Don't fully understand why. Still great friends.



## onceler1 (May 15, 2015)

So this summer, I started dating a woman 17 years older than me whom I'm very fond of. We had about 6 dates which went really, really well. It felt like she was falling hard for me and vice versa. I've never experienced anything like it in my life. Haven't had sex yet--got really close one time. right around that time she lost her mother. Then she said she wanted to slow down with me and take it slow. We had one date after that, still cuddled and kissed a bit, but it was different. Then she stopped talking to me nearly as much as she had.

I guess the timing here was just very bad. With the death of her mother in play, I can't make any assumptions at all. I checked in with her ONLY twice since she said she wanted to slow down. After the second time, she said she was still figuring things out and didn't know what she wants.

My response was to take the pressure off completely---I told her that I value her friendship above all else. She seemed to respond positively to this, and then we saw each other after that and spent hours together and had a great time, but no cuddling or kissing. I wanted to make sure not to make any moves so she knew by my actions I was serious about taking the pressure off. I just didn't want a "when are we going to have sex?" question hanging in the air right now. She lost her mom. So, I really think this was the right thing to do.

The sucky part is, I'm in love with her. For real. I knew I liked her a lot when I indicated interest months ago, but now that I've spent months talking to her and spending some time with her in person, I REALLY like her. I know a significant percentage of my feelings are still an ideal and not the full complex reality of who this woman is, but the percentage that is real affection for who she really is has grown from say 3% to 20%. 

So I mean, it hurts that the romance has cooled down right now---but I felt letting go of that possibility completely right now and just being here for her is literally all I can do, and probably the only path that MIGHT have romance in the future.

I like her so much...I want to be with her. Yeah its a big age difference but if you saw any of my other posts, she's extremely healthy and youthful for her age. Interacting with her doesn't feel like I'm interacting with my mother or whatever---my own mother is in her 80's, this woman is in her early 50's.


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## Kendahke (Sep 28, 2020)

Grief is a really strange thing. When I lost my mother last year, relationships were the very last thing I had emotional energy for, so I decided not to date for a year--to be fair to whomever I would have met, knowing that I wasn't in the head space to put their needs on the priority list. 

My advice would be to continue what you're doing. Give her the space she asked for--it shows you respect where she is, emotionally. Once it gets to a year after her mother's passing, that is when I would ask her where she is on you two getting closer. If she's still saying she doesn't know what she wants, then cut her loose and find someone else... what she needs more is a therapist, not a boyfriend if that's the case.


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## Dadto2 (Aug 11, 2020)

onceler1 said:


> So this summer, I started dating a woman 17 years older than me whom I'm very fond of. We had about 6 dates which went really, really well. It felt like she was falling hard for me and vice versa. I've never experienced anything like it in my life. Haven't had sex yet--got really close one time. right around that time she lost her mother. Then she said she wanted to slow down with me and take it slow. We had one date after that, still cuddled and kissed a bit, but it was different. Then she stopped talking to me nearly as much as she had.
> 
> I guess the timing here was just very bad. With the death of her mother in play, I can't make any assumptions at all. I checked in with her ONLY twice since she said she wanted to slow down. After the second time, she said she was still figuring things out and didn't know what she wants.
> 
> ...


So she'e early 50's, your mid 30's, right? That's a pretty big difference. And you're sure she's not married or going through a divorce, right?

Losing a parent can be devastating, so you're doing the right thing by giving her space and taking it slow. Have you simply asked her what she's looking for in a relationship? She's in her 50's, so she's not dumb. She may think you're just playing her for sex and she doesn't want that. Maybe she was hurt before. I think you just need to talk to her. BUT stop with the love talk. You may think she wants to hear that, but to be honest, it will probably scare the heck out of her this early on.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

It would maybe be more helpful to continue the thread you already have going, rather than start anew.

This is the woman with which the gas interfered with you being intimate. And her mom died. And her child was coming home, is that right?

Looks like you are at really different life stages.


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## onceler1 (May 15, 2015)

Lol, well the gas didn't fully interfere. We did some stuff, things I really failed to even try adequately in previous relationships including my marriage. I wasn't expert at them, but, just the fact that I even tried it and she was receptive to it was really great. Like, even if this doesn't work, I got a tiny bit close to being an actually good lover for...if not her, somebody, some day. haha _edit_ and the gas didn't come out WHILE with her, I just made several trips to the bathroom. she didn't even know that's what I was doing she was asleep. haha I just felt awful physically and kept it to myself mostly.

Yes that's right.

And yes, different life stages. Partly not though---if you take into consideration I MIGHT have had children the same age as hers by now if my ex wife had wanted children. My parents are in their 80's, one or both might die soon (not that I want that, just pointing out my parents are VERY old relative to my age) So I think that's debatable. Then throw in that both my sisters were > 10 years older than me, I'm generationally dialed back. My ex wife is 4 years older than me. I'll be shocked as hell if I ever date a woman younger than me.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Let her go, move on. If you want a friend keep that but there's no romance there brother. 

She may have been planning a dalliance with you but life got in the way. Chalk it up to no ones fault, just such is life.

Move on! I personally can't believe you'd be overthinking this as much as you have.


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## onceler1 (May 15, 2015)

Move on to what exactly? I have literally no social life and dating apps are an abysmal waste land. I enjoy her company so much, I intend to continue seeing her in a non romantic capacity. Perhaps eventually she meets someone or I meet someone, that would naturally change things. But it leaves open the possibility that she changes her mind and comes back towards me.


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## Nailhead (Sep 21, 2020)

"After the second time, she said she was still figuring things out and didn't know what she wants."

My thoughts this is the nicest why she could say it is not working out. Just my take on hearing the same line a few times in my dating days.


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## onceler1 (May 15, 2015)

You're probably right. Welp...doesn't mean she might not change her mind eventually right? I'm playing the long game here. Thing is she's been my friend for over 10 years. She's not going anywhere and neither am I friendship wise.


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

onceler1 said:


> Move on to what exactly? I have literally no social life and dating apps are an abysmal waste land. I enjoy her company so much, I intend to continue seeing her in a non romantic capacity. Perhaps eventually she meets someone or I meet someone, that would naturally change things. But it leaves open the possibility that she changes her mind and comes back towards me.


This is pathetic. No wonder why you are fixating on a woman that's 17 years older than you (not that it means anything, because age difference doesn't), but it does paints the picture of a man with not confidence in himself, and desperate, basically debasing himself as being an orbiter beta male in the hope to someday to have a chance with her. I would tell her to run away from you, but eventually as she is older and more wise, she would see what you are lacking, or she already sees it and is trying to let you down softly, as many women tend to do.


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## Nailhead (Sep 21, 2020)

onceler1 said:


> You're probably right. Welp...doesn't mean she might not change her mind eventually right? I'm playing the long game here. Thing is she's been my friend for over 10 years. She's not going anywhere and neither am I friendship wise.


Nothing wrong with hope she may change her mind. Once I dated a girl for a few weeks. She gave me the same line you received. Within a week she called me. Now 26 years later we are still in love and happily married. My W is 7 years younger than me.


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## onceler1 (May 15, 2015)

Rob_1 said:


> This is pathetic. No wonder why you are fixating on a woman that's 17 years older than you (not that it means anything, because age difference doesn't), but it does paints the picture of a man with not confidence in himself, and desperate, basically debasing himself as being an orbiter beta male in the hope to someday to have a chance with her. I would tell her to run away from you, but eventually as she is older and more wise, she would see what you are lacking, or she already sees it and is trying to let you down softly, as many women tend to do.


If I was desperate I'd be pursuing someone on FB right now who I know is single and closer to my age, but who is very fat and not very pretty. I'm not pursuing her, I'm pursuing this woman.

I'm growing in confidence in myself. I was legit afraid I was permanently squeamish of going down on a woman because of some very poor experiences before marriage, and then a very bad marriage with a woman who would NOT communicate with me at ALL. This woman let me do that, and I enjoyed it, and look forward to confidently doing it again some day to somebody. So that's leveling up in confidence. I also once held this woman in the air with her legs wrapped around me. She made me feel very manly this summer. My confidence is much higher than it used to be, that's how I attracted a beautiful woman 17 years older than me to begin with. I can't say for sure why it isn't working out, but it isn't due to lack of confidence or being pathetic, so **** off with that ********.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

onceler1 said:


> Move on to what exactly? I have literally no social life and dating apps are an abysmal waste land. I enjoy her company so much, I intend to continue seeing her in a non romantic capacity. Perhaps eventually she meets someone or I meet someone, that would naturally change things. But it leaves open the possibility that she changes her mind and comes back towards me.


So this statement is a red flag. You need to work on creating real friendships. Your significant other can’t be your everything. You need to have other things.


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## onceler1 (May 15, 2015)

Girl_power said:


> So this statement is a red flag. You need to work on creating real friendships. Your significant other can’t be your everything. You need to have other things.


I have a lot of friends and treasures in this area. I have plenty else, just not what amounts to a robust social life in which I could meet more women that might want to date me.

My biggest problem is that I am a musician, but politically I'm conservative, which socially means I can't relate to any musicians (because for some reason they are almost without fail very left wing) nor can I culturally relate to conservative people (who almost without fail are so religious I can't speak their language; I am agnostic). I'm also divorced. That narrows my possible dating pool down to about 5 people worldwide. This woman happens to intersect on that rare combination of being a nerd and being conservative, which is high on the list of why I'm so interested in her.

NOTE: political differences aren't a problem for ME, but for some of the women I've spoken to from tinder or what not it's a huge ****ing problem. You're even a millimeter right of center and bam, they're gone.


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

I didn't say you were pathetic. I say "this" statement is pathetic (a red flag) statement. And yes, what you are doing is by definition being what is called a " beta orbiter"


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Based on my experience(s) I can not endorse waiting around for someone to change their mind. Just friends approach rarely turns out well, nor does waiting on the wings. Slow and steady also doesn't always win the race.

My partner has had her orbiters before she met me. One whom she was working with at the time had the biggest crush on her and did practically everything for her hoping for a chance. This lasted for almost a year. Then I came in, swooped her off her feet within a day and left him going 😨 WTF

It's kinda funny actually, and we still joke about it.


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## onceler1 (May 15, 2015)

Well, sadly it is nearly impossible to reason clearly about this since her mother died. If that hadn't happened and she cooled off like this, it'd be a hell of a lot clearer this isn't going to ever go anywhere. See what a pickle that puts me in?


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## Nailhead (Sep 21, 2020)

RandomDude said:


> Based on my experience(s) I can not endorse waiting around for someone to change their mind. Just friends approach rarely turns out well, nor does waiting on the wings. Slow and steady also doesn't always win the race.
> 
> My partner has had her orbiters before she met me. One whom she was working with at the time had the biggest crush on her and did practically everything for her hoping for a chance. This lasted for almost a year. Then I came in, swooped her off her feet within a day and left him going 😨 WTF
> 
> It's kinda funny actually, and we still joke about it.


Stud.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Nailhead said:


> Stud.


Nah, lucky actually. VERY lucky.

But regardless of that, it just shows some things are just fated and if it drags on in the friend zone too long it's just not meant to be. BTW didn't you say your wife called you back within what? A week? lol


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## onceler1 (May 15, 2015)

RandomDude said:


> Nah, lucky actually. VERY lucky.
> 
> But regardless of that, it just shows some things are just fated and if it drags on in the friend zone too long it's just not meant to be. BTW didn't you say your wife called you back within what? A week? lol


Are you talking to nailhead or me? Haha my ex wife isn't in the picture anymore.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Nail head lol


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## Nailhead (Sep 21, 2020)

RandomDude said:


> Nah, lucky actually. VERY lucky.
> 
> But regardless of that, it just shows some things are just fated and if it drags on in the friend zone too long it's just not meant to be. BTW didn't you say your wife called you back within what? A week? lol


I concur. Yes, my now W called me back in a week and asked to go to the movies. The rest is history. Within 3 months I asked to marry. Married one year after. 26 years and rolling.

For Onceler1, the age gap is quite big IMO. Sure, have good time with this women but realize biology/time will take its course. This is the long game you should be looking at.


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## onceler1 (May 15, 2015)

Nailhead said:


> I concur. Yes, my now W called me back in a week and asked to go to the movies. The rest is history. Within 3 months I asked to marry. Married one year after. 26 years and rolling.
> 
> For Onceler1, the age gap is quite big IMO. Sure, have good time with this women but realize biology/time will take its course. This is the long game you should be looking at.


Thing is though this sort of thing DOES happen out there. The age gap becomes a smaller percentage of each of our ages as we get older, I'll point out. It will become less and less relevant. Speaking in terms of knowledge of my own sexuality, I do not seem to be turned on by youth and beauty but by emotional connection, primarily. Which, seems to set me at odds with nearly every stereotype you hear about what turns men on, but this doesn't concern me. I'm attracted to women, and my sexuality comes out most strongly when I feel like I care about someone.

Yeah. It's just hard, because it is so ****ing goddamn hard for me to find a woman I can connect with. My love life was totally abysmal prior to my bad marriage---each relationship very short and immature, and no sex. Then my wife was totally dead emotionally, couldn't connect with me. We had plenty of sex, but it was very boring and static sex. She never told me what she wanted to make it better. We _never had sex without a condom_ _I_ have never had sex without a condom. I wanted to wait til we both decided to have a kid. Very late in the marriage it seemed like she was about to suggest that we roll the dice rather than decide, but I didn't want to roll the dice. Then she cheated and left.

I feel a real connection with this woman. Or at least, I felt like one was growing. I am still fond of her.

So yeah, its just hard. My love life has been utterly terrible. Never actually felt like I was possibly in real life til this situation.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

I'm reading this as she dated you and decided she wasn't romantically interested in you, but only as a friend, so since you are more attached and wanting sex and romance, it's best to just end the carnage here completely and date other women. It's very rare that a woman suddenly develops sexual feelings. She gave it a shot and it didn't work for her, for whatever reason, reasons that are about her and what she's like and what works for her. I don't think it would work for you to just be friends with her and it would just waste precious time. Sorry. Good luck.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

onceler1 said:


> Move on to what exactly? I have literally no social life and dating apps are an abysmal waste land. I enjoy her company so much, I intend to continue seeing her in a non romantic capacity. Perhaps eventually she meets someone or I meet someone, that would naturally change things. But it leaves open the possibility that she changes her mind and comes back towards me.


Hanging on to hope in a friendship, though, often acts as a block to keep you from finding someone else, because who's going to put up with it?


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## onceler1 (May 15, 2015)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Hanging on to hope in a friendship, though, often acts as a block to keep you from finding someone else, because who's going to put up with it?


That's a good point, only I don't really know where to begin looking to be honest, because of previously mentioned ridiculously steep challenges for finding a woman that I can connect with. Nearly everyone fits themselves neatly into stereotypes and our culture is extremely divided politically. If you're an artist, you're on the left. If you're a country person, farmer or contractor, you're on the right. Culturally, I like talking to artists. I can't connect with them morally or politically. Morally and politically, I prefer the company of conservatives and down to earth country people, but then they don't understand me being a weird introverted musician and computer nerd. I'd be open to dating a woman with left leaning political views, but _NONE OF THEM ARE EVEN REMOTELY OPEN TO DATING SOMEONE WHO HAS VOTED FOR TRUMP_. Mass sexual warfare by the left to get all us bitter conservative men to finally throw in the towel and become shrieking leftist banshees just like them I suppose.


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## onceler1 (May 15, 2015)

Ugh it just ****in hurts. She gave me so much and such very warm affection and attention for weeks on end. We talked for hours a day. We cuddled for hours. We shared so many things about our lives and interests. For that to have shut off so abruptly ****ing hurts. 

But there's nothing I can do about it except let go, and that's what I did. And alluding to an earlier post, I actually didn't tell her I was in love with her---I'm mature enough to wait til that becomes more clear later on.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

onceler1 said:


> Thing is though this sort of thing DOES happen out there. The age gap becomes a smaller percentage of each of our ages as we get older, I'll point out. It will become less and less relevant. Speaking in terms of knowledge of my own sexuality, I do not seem to be turned on by youth and beauty but by emotional connection, primarily. Which, seems to set me at odds with nearly every stereotype you hear about what turns men on, but this doesn't concern me. I'm attracted to women, and my sexuality comes out most strongly when I feel like I care about someone.


My partner and I have a 14 year age gap. You forget about it after a while, it's not even something important. Your issue isn't your age gap, it's just that she's not interested.



> Yeah. It's just hard, because it is so ****ing goddamn hard for me to find a woman I can connect with. My love life was totally abysmal prior to my bad marriage---each relationship very short and immature, and no sex. Then my wife was totally dead emotionally, couldn't connect with me. We had plenty of sex, but it was very boring and static sex. She never told me what she wanted to make it better. We _never had sex without a condom_ _I_ have never had sex without a condom. I wanted to wait til we both decided to have a kid. Very late in the marriage it seemed like she was about to suggest that we roll the dice rather than decide, but I didn't want to roll the dice. Then she cheated and left.
> I feel a real connection with this woman. Or at least, I felt like one was growing. I am still fond of her.
> So yeah, its just hard. My love life has been utterly terrible. Never actually felt like I was possibly in real life til this situation.


When a woman loves you, compared to how you are being treated now, the difference is like night and day.


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## onceler1 (May 15, 2015)

Perhaps so. Only, her mother died, so...I still feel like I should give this more time before I throw in the towel and get back on dating apps. I mean she showed me screenshots of having deleted HER dating apps, and I did the same. Like we were saying "we're going to give each other a serious shot." So... maybe she accidentally got my hopes up higher than they should have been. Maybe I'm being too generous. Idk.


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## onceler1 (May 15, 2015)

One of the reasons she cited for cooling off was that she's been hurt bad in the past by moving too fast physically. One man apparently she rushed into things with abandoned her and then went back to her multiple times. So she has some serious trauma. Which to me means, the ONLY WAY there would be a possibility with her would be to let go an dremain friends as I have done..because I'm showing her I value her more than just sex.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

onceler1 said:


> That's a good point, only I don't really know where to begin looking to be honest, because of previously mentioned ridiculously steep challenges for finding a woman that I can connect with. Nearly everyone fits themselves neatly into stereotypes and our culture is extremely divided politically. If you're an artist, you're on the left. If you're a country person, farmer or contractor, you're on the right. Culturally, I like talking to artists. I can't connect with them morally or politically. Morally and politically, I prefer the company of conservatives and down to earth country people, but then they don't understand me being a weird introverted musician and computer nerd. I'd be open to dating a woman with left leaning political views, but _NONE OF THEM ARE EVEN REMOTELY OPEN TO DATING SOMEONE WHO HAS VOTED FOR TRUMP_. Mass sexual warfare by the left to get all us bitter conservative men to finally throw in the towel and become shrieking leftist banshees just like them I suppose.


I honestly think that is changing now. I have always surrounded myself with creative types, and there was a time I was considered a liberal, but I'm older now and the world is changing, and there are influences I didn't have to worry about now that have become a priority for me over abortion rights or gay rights, because now we have to worry about socialism and police killers and people who want to let non-citizens vote and let everyone into the country illegally, which is a financial black hole, so now I am no longer voting liberal. But I still like my creative friends, whether we agree or don't, and I try not to get too into that with them. They know I've followed crime for years and where I'm coming from. I know they're coming from good heartedness, but aren't really keeping up with what is going on on most fronts, as I myself used to also do, until I had motivation to get more involved.

So you do have the divide, and you can't always read people. But you also don't have to talk politics right out of the box. And maybe it would be best to wait until after the election and see if the dust settles.

You know, it's funny. I looked at an old friend's front page on Facebook (I'm not on Facebook) because he had lost his lifelong mate not long ago and I just wondered if I could tell if he was doing okay, and he had this long diatribe on there trying to explain his politics. 

He's a vet and owns guns, but he is for gun control. He believes in illegal immigration just because he "doesn't believe in living in fear" (well, if I was a vet with a gun collection instead of an old lady living alone, I might not give a crap about a lot of things either, I guess!). He said he'd defend any president whether he liked them or not, which I'm sure doesn't swallow well with his mostly musician friends. Apparently he gets a lot of pushback from people so he was trying to head it off at the pass saying what he believed in and what type arguments he wouldn't put up with (logical ones). Cough, cough. He has a strong personality so he gets himself into these things. Anyway, was glad to see he was the same old stubborn mess.

Point is, we are only seeing far left and right represented in the media for the most part. But there are SO many moderates out there just filing their nails.


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## onceler1 (May 15, 2015)

Also this concept of beta orbiter---I really don't like it. Know why? It is saying: "The only possible reason a man would want to spend time with a woman is for sex." That is patently false. We spent hours talking on saturday and then watched a star wars movie. I had her in stitches riffing about the movie. We always have a great time together. That's worthwhile to me even if sex isn't on the table.

Of course now if I did meet another woman who DOES want to be my mate, well of course that changes things, because I do want a mate eventually. But I just don't like all that ******** MGTOW language like beta orbiters and such it just dehumanizes and labels people. Much like the whole "narcissism" thing. They all constitute flawed ways of describing complex realities.

And why is it that nearly every time I hear MGTOW terminology, I see an aussie flag somewhere? What the **** is going on down there guys?


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

So if I understand right, you've never had sex without a condom?

You've got to remedy that. It may change your worldview. 

Just a thought.


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## onceler1 (May 15, 2015)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> So if I understand right, you've never had sex without a condom?
> 
> You've got to remedy that. It may change your worldview.
> 
> Just a thought.


Correct. Sex for me has been an epic struggle. Imagine if you will, being raised like a fundamentalist christian in such a way that made it more convincing than most fundamentalist christians live, but you're atheist/agnostic. So your first sexual experiences in highschool are terrifying and actually make you racked with pain and tension, and at that age you don't know you needed ibuprofen, so your **** goes soft and the girl cheats on you with a man 15 years older the very next week. Then, attempted to have sex in college, but I couldn't figure out how to get it in. To make matters worse, that girl smelled up to high heaven which made touching her lady parts extremely problematic and rather gross. Then, I finally meet a woman i'm sexually compatible with, but the compatibility ends there. We end up getting married anyway because I thought things would get better, but of course they didn't. Had plenty of very boring sex with a condom. Then she cheats and leaves.

So then I connect with this woman, and we ALMOST have sex, and I much more confidently go down on her than I ever attempted on any woman in the past. I GOT SO FREAKING CLOSE to having a normal sexual encounter than I ever have in my life, and now its gone.

****ing sucks.


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## onceler1 (May 15, 2015)

Hope at least that was entertaining and made someone out there feel better about themselves.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

You'll get there. Don't let the perceived negatives in meeting women get you down.

Heck, you were married once!

I'd make having a sexual coming out party a goal if I were you!

👍👍


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## onceler1 (May 15, 2015)

Yeah I know it could be worse. I'm grateful I even did have sex for much of my 20's, I suppose there are quite a few men who don't have sex til much later, or worse, never. So, could be a lot worse.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

onceler1 said:


> Lol, well the gas didn't fully interfere. We did some stuff, things I really failed to even try adequately in previous relationships including my marriage. I wasn't expert at them, but, just the fact that I even tried it and she was receptive to it was really great. Like, even if this doesn't work, I got a tiny bit close to being an actually good lover for...if not her, somebody, some day. haha _edit_ and the gas didn't come out WHILE with her, I just made several trips to the bathroom. she didn't even know that's what I was doing she was asleep. haha I just felt awful physically and kept it to myself mostly.
> 
> Yes that's right.
> 
> And yes, different life stages. Partly not though---if you take into consideration I MIGHT have had children the same age as hers by now if my ex wife had wanted children. My parents are in their 80's, one or both might die soon (not that I want that, just pointing out my parents are VERY old relative to my age) So I think that's debatable. Then throw in that both my sisters were > 10 years older than me, I'm generationally dialed back. My ex wife is 4 years older than me. I'll be shocked as hell if I ever date a woman younger than me.


So your mum had you at around 50???


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> You'll get there. Don't let the perceived negatives in meeting women get you down.
> 
> Heck, you were married once!
> 
> ...


When you do, you should invite Ragnar!


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

onceler1 said:


> Ugh it just ****in hurts. She gave me so much and such very warm affection and attention for weeks on end. We talked for hours a day. We cuddled for hours. We shared so many things about our lives and interests. For that to have shut off so abruptly ****ing hurts.
> 
> But there's nothing I can do about it except let go, and that's what I did. And alluding to an earlier post, I actually didn't tell her I was in love with her---I'm mature enough to wait til that becomes more clear later on.


It always sucks for things to go downhill while you're still in the "high hopes" phase of thinking it might be something special. But remember, a few more months, and chances are she wouldn't have seemed to perfect to you, because it takes a long time to really know someone and see that they are not your ideal that you hope they will be in the early stages. Sadly, that sometimes happens when the other person pulls the plug and lets you know they're not feeling it. It's hope that's hard to let go of.


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## onceler1 (May 15, 2015)

Well I'm not letting go of hope of finding love---but trying to let go of hope with this particular woman.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

onceler1 said:


> Well, sadly it is nearly impossible to reason clearly about this since her mother died. If that hadn't happened and she cooled off like this, it'd be a hell of a lot clearer this isn't going to ever go anywhere. See what a pickle that puts me in?


Then for the love of God, let her seek YOU out for solace rather calling, texting, or whatever indicating to her that you are there for her. And although I'm not telling you what you should, or shouldn't be doing, I would suggest that what you currently ARE doing is duplicitous. You don't want to be her friend. You want more. You are hoping for more. So you are posing as a friend in the hopes she picks you again. Personally, from my perspective, that's a really bad look. So what happens if you find out she's attracted to, and being intimate with someone else? And she wants to talk about it with you? Still want to be her friend?

My .02 cents is, if you want to be a friend to her, than do so, take your leave and start looking elsewhere. Whenever I hear someone qualify that dating apps are a waste of time, or hokey, or you can't possibly find someone of value, I don't believe that's what they mean. I believe it means that they are afraid. Of what, I can't say. Putting themselves out there? The possibility they do put themselves out there and STILL can't find someone? Being rejected or hurt? In my opinion, if you have had none of those things occur in your dating career, you're not trying very hard.
I'll put it this way, using a dating app tells me that you are serious about dating. And if you are serious about dating, it is far more likely that you will have a field of prospects to yield an individual that is extremely well suited to you.


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## onceler1 (May 15, 2015)

Deejo said:


> Then for the love of God, let her seek YOU out for solace rather calling, texting, or whatever indicating to her that you are there for her. And although I'm not telling you what you should, or shouldn't be doing, I would suggest that what you currently ARE doing is duplicitous. You don't want to be her friend. You want more. You are hoping for more. So you are posing as a friend in the hopes she picks you again.


I appreciate your responses however you've got quite a few assumptions in here. I considered her a friend for a long time, and developed feelings for her over a long time. So, if our brief experiment with being romantic together is at an end, the friendship has not changed. I may want more, however I do consider her a friend regardless. Those are independent aspects of my interactions with her. In other words, if I was castrated tomorrow, I would still have a fantastic time talking to her and spending time with her because, I do.



> . Personally, from my perspective, that's a really bad look. So what happens if you find out she's attracted to, and being intimate with someone else? And she wants to talk about it with you? Still want to be her friend?


Well, I would still be her friend, but at that point it would of course be clear that we could no longer prioritize spending time with one another and I would be okay with that.



> My .02 cents is, if you want to be a friend to her, than do so, take your leave and start looking elsewhere.


What makes this situation delicate is the death of her mother. I don't want to just up and leave or break things off right now partly for that reason. At least not RIGHT away. Maybe in a few weeks or months it may become more clear. Maybe she will suddenly decide to speak up. That's one of the weird aspects of this---she was being so incredibly open with me for WEEKS before this, and just clammed up. Still talking to me, still hanging out, but not open. Just: "I don't know what I want right now."

I kind of have started looking already. Not dating apps, there are one or two women in my sphere whom I've been interested in in the past who are now single, so, I'm kinda putting feelers out there to see if they want to catch up sometime.



> Whenever I hear someone qualify that dating apps are a waste of time, or hokey, or you can't possibly find someone of value, I don't believe that's what they mean. I believe it means that they are afraid. Of what, I can't say. Putting themselves out there? The possibility they do put themselves out there and STILL can't find someone? Being rejected or hurt? In my opinion, if you have had none of those things occur in your dating career, you're not trying very hard.
> I'll put it this way, using a dating app tells me that you are serious about dating. And if you are serious about dating, it is far more likely that you will have a field of prospects to yield an individual that is extremely well suited to you.


My experience with dating apps has been mixed. I was catfished once by someone who was roughly 400 lbs, and then I got one date from e-harmony and one date from match.com. Both of those women were actually pretty cool people, there just wasn't any chemistry. Each of these dates that I got were spaced about 3 months apart. I mean, maybe I meet someone great somewhere in the next 10 years at that pace, but that's a pretty abysmal pace.

I'll tell ya---one of those dates that I got was really discouraging, because she was an amazing person in every way, and lined up with me in tons of ways, very conservative, trump supporter, and CLASSICAL MUSICIAN.

but.......no friggin chemistry at all. we didn't click. like, how ****ty is that!?


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Why not just walk out the door and hit on the most interesting/attractive female stranger you meet?

Doesn't have to be past friends and doesn't have to be dating apps.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

At some point, you need to TALK with her about this.ASk her flat out if the "slowing things down" means the friend zone. This should give you some clarity.


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## Kaliber (Apr 10, 2020)

onceler1 said:


> Of course now if I did meet another woman who DOES want to be my mate, well of course that changes things, because I do want a mate eventually. But I just don't like all that ****** MGTOW language like beta orbiters and such it just dehumanizes and labels people. Much like the whole "narcissism" thing. They all constitute flawed ways of describing complex realities.


Oh boy you have a lot to learn!
No wonder you couldn't score it with her!



Deejo said:


> Then for the love of God, let her seek YOU out for solace rather calling, texting, or whatever indicating to her that you are there for her. And although I'm not telling you what you should, or shouldn't be doing, I would suggest that what you currently ARE doing is duplicitous. You don't want to be her friend. You want more. You are hoping for more. So you are posing as a friend in the hopes she picks you again. Personally, from my perspective, that's a really bad look. So what happens if you find out she's attracted to, and being intimate with someone else? And she wants to talk about it with you? Still want to be her friend?


@Deejo what you wrote is the exact definition of "beta orbiter" and that's exactly what @onceler1 is doing!

@onceler1, I think one of the reasons you didn't get what you want is that you stayed way to long playing friends with her, so she developed that friendship mentality with you and the sexual attraction was killed, she sees you now as a son or a young brother at best!
Basically, she friend zoned you!

Last advice (it will save you lots of grief): don't ask another fish how to catch a fish, ask a fisherman!
An advice from a fish will teach you how to become a thirsty beta, but a fisherman will teach you how to catch one!

Live and learn buddy, plenty of fish in the sea, but learn how to catch first!


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## onceler1 (May 15, 2015)

When is the right time to press her about the state of our relationship? Her mother died, and it is of utmost importance to me that I am sensitive to that.


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## onceler1 (May 15, 2015)

Learn how to catch first. I'm 37, I haven't learned a goddamn thing and probably have the maturity level of someone just graduating college (even though I was married 11 years, my ex wife NEVER TALKED TO ME ABOUT ANYTHING. NEVER COULD HAVE A HARD CONVERSATION, STARED AT ME IN SILENCe...so I learned ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.) I'm ****ed basically.


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## onceler1 (May 15, 2015)

I also find I'm not interested in most women I see on dating apps or around in public, so there's that.


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## onceler1 (May 15, 2015)

It is conceivable I may still have an advantage going forward. She's in her early 50's...women in that age category have an epically difficult time finding a mate.

Just like I'm having an epically difficult time finding a mate. I shouldn't let random people on this site discourage me or lessen my confidence and understanding of my own situation---I am going to proceed as I have been for the time being.

If I introduce negativity into this it will kill it. Her mother died.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

onceler1 said:


> When is the right time to press her about the state of our relationship? Her mother died, and it is of utmost importance to me that I am sensitive to that.


It's never the right time to PRESS her about the relationship. If she wanted to be with you that way it would happen naturally. 

Try to move on, so you are open to someone else when they come along.


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## onceler1 (May 15, 2015)

Livvie said:


> It's never the right time to PRESS her about the relationship. If she wanted to be with you that way it would happen naturally.
> 
> Try to move on, so you are open to someone else when they come along.


Yep, I'm beginning that process now, since it is fairly clear the romance aspect has vanished completely. I'm just going to drop all hope that it will go anywhere. It's just so weird that it stopped SO abruptly, and that she stopped stating clearly what her feelings were. She was talking _non stop_ about us and our relationship for weeks on end, and then bam, all gone. But again, mother died. like, I literally have no choice but to place that in front of any other consideration, any time I perseverate on how disappointed I am that things didn't go my way. It's much more important to respect that and drop everything I want or need. So, nothing I can do about it except move on as you say.


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## Kaliber (Apr 10, 2020)

onceler1 said:


> Learn how to catch first. I'm 37, I haven't learned a goddamn thing and probably have the maturity level of someone just graduating college (even though I was married 11 years, my ex wife NEVER TALKED TO ME ABOUT ANYTHING. NEVER COULD HAVE A HARD CONVERSATION, STARED AT ME IN SILENCe...so I learned ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.) I'm ****ed basically.


You can learn, it's not hard, watch some youtube videos on relationship and dating, there are some good books as well, but for the love of god don't watch or get advice or even read books from female relationship coaches you will get crewed big time!
You will fail many times until you develop your skills and thick skin for rejection!
Then you will start to pick what you want!
Learn how to be an Alpha male and watch what happens!



Livvie said:


> It's never the right time to PRESS her about the relationship. If she wanted to be with you that way it would happen naturally.


Sorry, it doesn't really happen naturally, males need to always make the first move, if you think it happens naturally you setting yourself for a big failure!
Main reason why I said (and all men say): don't ask another fish how to catch a fish, ask a fisherman!


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## onceler1 (May 15, 2015)

I was doing so ****ing well for weeks man. Better than I'd ever done with any woman.

Then her mother died.

How the **** do you navigate that?


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Or. Maybe the other guy came back again.


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## onceler1 (May 15, 2015)

Openminded said:


> Or. Maybe the other guy came back again.


That's what I believe at the moment. I think she's just not telling me. But, again, can't assume, because mother died. It's a horrible position to be in.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

onceler1 said:


> I was doing so ****ing well for weeks man. Better than I'd ever done with any woman.
> 
> Then her mother died.
> 
> How the **** do you navigate that?


I found this thread's theme song! 






Listen to the words very carefully, and move on


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## onceler1 (May 15, 2015)

I knew her for 10 years. She was a friend of "the family" (which was me and my ex wife.

There was a picture of her on my piano for 10 years.

When I was a little boy, I had an imaginary girlfriend with this woman's first name.

There's a lot of crazy, crazy stuff here, which would be epically poetic if she andI really do end up together.

For all I know she just freaked out and couldn't deal, cause of her mom right now. And cause she's been lied to, abandoned and abused by men in the past.

I'm taking all what all of you say with a grain of salt because you all have to rely on dozens of assumptions---at the end of the day, I'm going to be figuring out my own situation in my own way.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

onceler1 said:


> I'm taking all what all of you say with a grain of salt because you all have to rely on dozens of assumptions---at the end of the day, I'm going to be figuring out my own situation in my own way.


Yes, this is good


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

DownByTheRiver said:


> When you do, you should invite Ragnar!


Send a SASE to RR, and he'll mail you a playbook on how to succeed in every female sexual relationship. 

🙂 ps this is just a test to see who remembers what SASE stands for, in today's internet society!


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

I think you are really just spinning your wheels. Maybe this maybe that, oh but this, and that, on and on.

The truth is, if she were really interested in you, and wanted to have an ongoing romantic relationship with you, and is normally emotionally healthy and able to provide an open, honest, sharing, and stable relationship with you, she would have said weeks ago when her mother died-- hey, we've been close lately but I'm going through a rough patch right now and need to disengage for a bit, but know it has nothing to do with you and I want to pick up where we left off sometime in the future if you are willing. 

Really. That's what an interested, normally emotionally healthy 50 year old woman would say to you.


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## Tdbo (Sep 8, 2019)

You made your play. It apparently didn't stick.
Pursuing her like a puppy dog will do nothing but repel her.
Just back off. If she is interested, she will seek you out.
Move on. Seek greener pastures.


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## Kaliber (Apr 10, 2020)

onceler1 said:


> For all I know she just freaked out and couldn't deal, cause of her mom right now. And cause she's been lied to, abandoned and abused by men in the past.


So lets see what we have

Her mom died
Past trauma (abandoned and abused)
Big age difference
To many dates and you didn't make a move so you got friend zoned
I believe she did a lot of s**t tests on you, like all women do!
And you failed on some or all of them.
If you don't know what female testing is, it is: Something that all women CONSISTENTLY do subconsciously and consciously to test a man if he is a relationship and a mating material. it's the mysterious side of female psychology and how women think!
*Simple example:* Let me be a little ***** to him and see if he will call me out on my bull**t and stand up strong! (If you bend backwards you failed the test, and attraction points lost!), Oh and it's done subconsciously by her without her known she is doing it!

OK, so what you can do as a last ditch, don't contact her, give her space, let her feel your absence and after some time (two weeks or a month what ever you feel its appropriate) call her for a dinner date and make your move (go for a proper kiss, not a pick on the cheek)
See what happens, if she reciprocates, you are in, if not, you got your answer, and can start going your own way and STOP becoming a "beta orbiter" and doing things or favors for her, you can be a friend and have catch up coffee every now and then, but stop what you are doing (movies and hanging out)!




onceler1 said:


> -at the end of the day, I'm going to be figuring out my own situation in my own way.


How was that working for you?!
I meant what I said before: *you have a lot to learn!*
You see you can do any thing in your own way, but in the dating scene things are different, and women romantic behavior doesn't change, and what they attracted in a man doesn't change much, to get there you need some skills and those skills don't change, so doing things your own way will not get you anywhere!

There are Betas and simps that can score a date or two, and have a relationships just to find out they got horribly cheated on or dumped, let alone being treated disrespectfully throughout the relationship, they are just not attractive to women, women don't really like these type of men, you can't do much about it, it's women biology to seek the best strong mate, they really don't settle for the weak, after all a they know that a weak male will not be able to protect them or their children in any way!

I don't think you are a simp (I'm hoping you won't become one), which is good, but you do have a lot of Beta traits that you need to work on, some Beta traits are good to keep and lots of them are rally bad (you have shown signs of them). You need to start adding a lot of Alpha traits to your character to be attractive to women.

Start reading these books, it will open your eyes, it will give you the tools to up your Alpha traits, you will learn so much from it, it's also fun to read to uncover this mysterious world about female attraction and how to sustain relationships, and *NO these books are not MGTOW or Red pill stuff*:

*The Married Man Sex Life Primer* - by Athol Kay
*What Women Want In A Man: How to Become the Alpha Male Women Respect, Desire, and Want to Submit To *- by Bruce Bryans
*What Women Want When They Test Men: How to Decode Female Behavior, Pass a Woman’s Tests, and Attract Women Through Authenticity* - by Bruce Bryans
Check their reviews in Amazon, they are really good books!
Sadly, most other dating and relationship books out there rarely show men how to keep a woman happy without them having to go through *betaization** and sacrifice their manhood in the process.

(*) What is *betaization*: is where the strong, alpha male is rendered beta — which means “secondary” or “subservient” — within the relationship, over a period of time. Quite often, this process occurs gradually and almost imperceptibly to both parties. Manipulation is widely used by women to achieve, once achieved the same women will lose all attraction and seek other men (by cheating or dumping their beta weak spouse), betaization happens in stages.
*Example starts with*: “Honey, please take out the trash and wash the cat, and please hurry!”
*To:* Purchase decisions can now be made “jointly” which, in the cool light of rational analysis, really are the result of the woman’s manipulation attempts and the man’s desire to maintain some semblance of peace in the household, so he bends backwards most of the time to keep the peace!
*Then: *“I am never satisfied no matter what you do or how hard you try.”, but you keep trying even harder, *result:* relationship fails (by exit affair or normal divorce)!


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## lj2932 (Jul 21, 2020)

It feels more and more like you've been playing a game of What About - Yes But. I'm not sure you even want advice or anyone's opinions, just sympathy for your inability to deal with the situation one way or another.


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

lj2932 said:


> It feels more and more like you've been playing a game of What About - Yes But.* I'm not sure you even want advice or anyone's opinions, just sympathy for your inability to deal with the situation one way or another.*


And the reason why he's at where he is.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

onceler1 said:


> That's what I believe at the moment. I think she's just not telling me. But, again, can't assume, because mother died. It's a horrible position to be in.


You can't assume, but surely if you are great friends, you can ASK her? Her mother dying doesn't trump all -- she still needs to live, and these types of discussions are part of living. Don't PRESS -- ask. Don't push -- discuss. She will let you know one way or the other.


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## GAgirl912 (Dec 22, 2017)

RandomDude said:


> Based on my experience(s) I can not endorse waiting around for someone to change their mind. Just friends approach rarely turns out well, nor does waiting on the wings. Slow and steady also doesn't always win the race.


I’m in a situation where I have all of a sudden developed an extreme attraction to my close friend of 3 years (known each other for 6). He was always there waiting. I even saw him as annoying at times.. thinking what in the hell he is waiting for, I just wasn’t interested  he kept trying to get me to go out with him, but not in an overbearing type of way though. And I often wondered, because he was/is such a good friend, how long he would stay in friend zone... I even asked him once or twice and he always just said “as long as it takes”. I thought he was full of it. 

I don’t know where this is going yet as we’ve only just moved into the romantic part. This is a first for me and maybe it’s my age, maybe it’s him, maybe whatever, but in this case maybe waiting around worked 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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