# need the 'group' to help me with LD wife



## HDsocal (Nov 19, 2010)

Let me start with, been married over 20 yrs. Sex has been an issue with me want higher 'quality' sex more often than her. Many letters, talks etc over the years. Some of my old postings give more details.

But the upside, a few weeks ago we had another talk, I told her that this was going to be the last one, something has to give (not bluffing serious about it). I think that she understands the need for change, and we have had a great relationship since the talk. One thing she did (with my suggestion) is to setup an account on here and look at he LD/HD threads. I'm more of a fix it yourself kind of guy, she has always been a find advice from others, so..... knowing she will see this, I need the group's help.

This is to the HD in HD/LD relationships.

If your LD spouse really going to make the effort, what would you want them to do? This can be a short term or a long term thing.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

Why do you need the group to tell you what you want?


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## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

Hmm, I left my previous gf due to her sexual dysfunction.

I would suggest a relationship check-up . It is where both are free to ask for what they need in a relationship. Should be occurring if not so already. It helps focus the relationship and make sure both are heading down the same path.

Second, is her sex drive lower due to hormones, conditioning, or it is simply biological. Everyone has a scale when it comes to lust. I would say how is the romance, but this sounds like the way she is. Romance can increase the necessary hormones and neuro transmitter to boost the sex drive.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Sometimes just insisting on at least a hug would be nice, but according to the internet, guys like us just deserve a swift kick in the balls:

Dear Prudence: My husband makes me hug him.

Q. Hug Toll: My husband forces me to give him hugs. I know this sounds like a really stupid problem to have. He has created a “hug toll,” and he won’t let me leave the room until I give him a hug. Here are some examples. I am running late for work and need to rush out the door. He will physically block my exit until I give him a hug. He doesn’t do this in a way that will hurt me; he’ll just pick me up until I give him his hug then he’ll let me go. Another scenario is when we are downstairs and I have to use the bathroom. He will block the stairs until I hug him. It’s really annoying. Sometimes I just don’t feel like giving hugs. I have told him this, but he just laughed at me. The hug “tax” is really obnoxious. How do I make it stop? He is 100 pounds heavier than me and a foot taller, so I can’t push my way out. How can I make it stop, Prudence? I love hugging him, just not on command. He’s a hug bully.

A: Your letter makes me think that perhaps it’s time for you to establish a “knee to the balls” tax in response to the “hug tax.” (I have not checked with the IRS for a ruling on this.) This is a stupid problem, because your husband is behaving stupidly, but it’s not a stupid problem in the sense that it is trivial. Your very large husband manhandles you when you’re on your way out the door or even going to the bathroom. This is profoundly not OK. People treat their pets with more respect for their autonomy than he’s giving you. You need to tell him this has to stop—now. Explain that he is undermining the very basis of your marriage, and you cannot continue to feel as if your own home is the equivalent of Checkpoint Charlie.


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## Dragunov (May 21, 2015)

If it were my wife; I wish that she would just stop pushing me away every time I want to kiss or touch her. Even when we are in bed and the kid is away, apparently I'm not allowed to touch her in any way that might arouse her. 

Some affection, ANY affection would be welcomed.


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## HDsocal (Nov 19, 2010)

anonmd said:


> Why do you need the group to tell you what you want?


I have told my W what I want, details in writing etc. What I'm asking from the group, is what would you want to see from your LD spouse to show that he/she has truly making the effort. 

I want her to see that I'm not alone is wanting 'more', plus to see what others have done / want to have done to show that they understand the problem and are doing positive actions.

For that matter if there are previously LD spouses, they could add what worked for them. Not looking to criticize, but to encourage her.


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## ChargingCharlie (Nov 14, 2012)

Wish mine would quit mentioning how we should have sex, then follow up with how tired she is, how bad her head hurts, how bad her back hurts, etc. Don't tell me we should have sex just so that you can say you brought it up, then go on and on about your alleged ailments. I know you don't want sex so don't try to blow smoke ip my ass.


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## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

I feel bad for your wife. You seem narrowly focused.


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## Dragunov (May 21, 2015)

Duguesclin said:


> I feel bad for your wife. You seem narrowly focused.


In an otherwise good relationship, the lack of sex is a pretty narrowly focused issue.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

HD,

Why don't you post here what it is you've asked of her. 




HDsocal said:


> I have told my W what I want, details in writing etc. What I'm asking from the group, is what would you want to see from your LD spouse to show that he/she has truly making the effort.
> 
> I want her to see that I'm not alone is wanting 'more', plus to see what others have done / want to have done to show that they understand the problem and are doing positive actions.
> 
> For that matter if there are previously LD spouses, they could add what worked for them. Not looking to criticize, but to encourage her.


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## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

Dragunov said:


> In an otherwise good relationship, the lack of sex is a pretty narrowly focused issue.


Is it a good relationship? It would be interesting to know the OP's wife perspective. But before she can share, she should feel safe.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Just to be clear, OP, are you threatening her with divorce if she does not meet whatever standards you have set?


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## Spitfire (Jun 6, 2015)

Your wife should just be honest with you. Mine says she wants more sex but goes to bed really early. I've gone to bed and her phone is lit up on the nightstand. Obviously she hears me turn off the tv and then pretends to be sleeping. So no games or made up excuses. Just honesty.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

What I would like from my LD wife:

1). For her to put some effort in. The only time we are intimate is when I initiate. And I get rejected a large portion of the time. Because this is the way it is, I feel like I am not desired and loved. When it does happen I feel like a charity case.

2). For her to put my need for sex on an equal level with her needs. She has a list of things that I need to do for her to feel like being intimate with me. This makes me feel used and not loved. I do many things for her, but it is never enough.


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## HDsocal (Nov 19, 2010)

To answer some questions,



Duguesclin said:


> Is it a good relationship? It would be interesting to know the OP's wife perspective. But before she can share, she should feel safe.


I'm pretty sure she would say it is a good relationship, we seldom argue. She can weigh in on this.




jld said:


> Just to be clear, OP, are you threatening her with divorce if she does not meet whatever standards you have set?


I told her that this was the last time I was going to have the talk, I cant keep living like this, and this is something that ends relationships.

one of my posts, lays things out pretty well
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/241466-lack-passion-letter-talk.html

and
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/187697-willing-but-not-wanting.html


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

Duguesclin said:


> Is it a good relationship? It would be interesting to know the OP's wife perspective. But before she can share, she should feel safe.


I am guessing it isn't a good relationship. For the OP, it is because of not enough intimacy. 

Why do you ask? Is it your opinion that other things in the relationship are more important than sex? That he shouldn't expect sex unless he does X,Y and Z? If both partners needs are equal, then must be fine for him to say that she shouldn't expect X, Y and Z until their sex life improves. 

Sex is a legitimate need. It is equal to any need she may have. If it isn't happening, it is the reason that the relationship isn't great.


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## HDsocal (Nov 19, 2010)

SadSamIAm said:


> I feel like I am not desired and loved.


Pity sex is soul crushing in a long term relationship


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

HDsocal said:


> Pity sex is soul crushing in a long term relationship


I think many people don't realize that sex and intimacy is a legitimate need. 

They say you are just grumpy because you haven't got your rocks off lately. To them it is a selfish want and not a need. 

They don't understand that it is much deeper than that. For me, it has nothing to do with having an orgasm. It is all about feeling close, loved, desired, cared for, etc.


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## HDsocal (Nov 19, 2010)

SadSamIAm said:


> I am guessing it isn't a good relationship. For the OP, it is because of not enough intimacy.
> 
> Sex is a legitimate need. It is equal to any need she may have. If it isn't happening, it is the reason that the relationship isn't great.


Is it a good relationship? I guess you could answer it two ways, Other than the intimacy issues it is a great relationship, 

the other way to answer it is how good of a relationship can it be if there is such a fundamental disconnect about intimacy...

If the rest of the relationship wasn't as good as it is, and i didn't truly love her, I would not have put up with the intimacy issues. I told her that is part of the problem.


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## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

You have a lot of wants. Do you know hers?


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## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

SadSamIAm said:


> I am guessing it isn't a good relationship. For the OP, it is because of not enough intimacy.
> 
> Why do you ask? Is it your opinion that other things in the relationship are more important than sex? That he shouldn't expect sex unless he does X,Y and Z? If both partners needs are equal, then must be fine for him to say that she shouldn't expect X, Y and Z until their sex life improves.
> 
> Sex is a legitimate need. It is equal to any need she may have. If it isn't happening, it is the reason that the relationship isn't great.


I agree that sex is a legitimate need. Demanding is one way, inspiring it is better.

I see a lot of wants. I am just curious to know where is she coming from.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

Duguesclin said:


> You have a lot of wants. Do you know hers?


I believe in the vast majority of cases the HD person is well aware of their LD partners wants and needs. They have typically been trying every possible thing they can think of to get their partners to show interest in them. 

I am sure there are instances where the HD person is a total jerk and expects sex while being a terrible partner. But I think that isn't very common. 

I think in the majority of cases, the LD partner just doesn't truly believe that their partners need for sex/intimacy is every bit as important as their own needs. It is always if he would do X, Y and Z then I would feel like being intimate more.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Duguesclin said:


> You have a lot of wants. Do you know hers?


Probably to stop being asked for sex.

Has she ever come right out and said that, OP? Would she feel safe to?

Is she able to take care of herself in the event you divorce her? Financially? Emotionally?


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

Duguesclin said:


> I agree that sex is a legitimate need. Demanding is one way, inspiring it is better.
> 
> I see a lot of wants. I am just curious to know where is she coming from.


Maybe the OPs wife can answer this since he says she is reading. 

I will tell you what my wife tells me she wants. She says she wants me to talk to her more. I admit that I am not great at communicating. I think our issue is pretty common. Wives typically want their husbands to talk to them more.

The ironic thing is ....... 

Ever since we have been together, our best conversations have always happened in bed. Either before sex, after sex, the next morning after sex. Or even the afternoon afterwards. If we have sex, I automatically feel closer to her. Loved. I am in a good mood for a few days. 

If her want really was to communicate more, then it is very obvious that all she would have to do is put more effort into intimacy.


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## Happilymarried25 (Mar 19, 2014)

Your wife knows what you want and need. You have told her and she chooses not to give what you want and need. Hugs, kisses, cuddling and passionate sex, not just starfish sex. Odds are after all of these years she isn't going to change. The divorce rate is high for those in sexless marriages or marriages where one person is HD and not getting their needs met, because resentment sets in and you begin to disconnect and then loose your desire to have sex with your spouse even if your spouse does eventually want to have sex.


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

badsanta said:


> Sometimes just insisting on at least a hug would be nice, but according to the internet, guys like us just deserve a swift kick in the balls:
> 
> Dear Prudence: My husband makes me hug him.
> 
> ...


This can't be real. If so, how sad.

And Prudence is an idiot.


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## dadstartingover (Oct 23, 2015)

Stop putting your sense of worth on the shoulders of your wife. She resents you for it. It makes you look very weak. She doesn't want you. No amount of "BUT BUT BUT... You SHOULD want me, baby!" will change how she feels. Either it's hormones or just a lack of desire for you in general. 

Let's say your super sexy sit-down conversation with her gets her to agree with you. She needs to give you more sex. Is that really what you're going after? A woman saying "FINE!" and lying there like a dead slug? Or do you want a woman that genuinely DESIRES you and can't wait to be intimate with you and show you affection? 

You need to cultivate desire. Don't think because you're married that you can get comfortable. 

Dissecting Dead Bedrooms - Dad Starting Over


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## sixty-eight (Oct 2, 2015)

I'm an HD woman, and he's an LD man, so it's a little different.
We have had relationship check ups, where he basically states that i'm selfish and should be happy with what i get because he is the main provider and he's busy. (1 or 2x a month starfish sex. him asking for stand alone bj's 1x a month, sometimes only every other month) Check ups only work if both people are willing to compromise.

What he wants in order to feel loved is conversation and gifts of service ( he likes being taken care of and catered to.) 

what i want is displays of affection and passionate sex. I would be discontent with 2x a month sex, but would agree to work on the marriage if he would commit to marriage counseling, get his T levels checked, and show me any kind of affection. Also, no more starfish sex. He knows all of this. 

We are in the process of separating, and he says he'd like to work it out, but is unwilling (unable?) to change. To me, if he really wanted to work it out, he'd be willing to make some kind of effort. I certainly have. I've read books, tried new things in bed at first, thinking it was me, tried to fulfill his companionship needs. But when his needs are filled, then, he is just happy. No thought to reciprocation. So i then tried to not fill his companionship needs, and then he knows something is wrong, but isn't interested in fixing the problem.

He is unwilling to entertain the idea that we feel loved in different ways. He doesn't understand why halfhearted efforts to fill the void between us with conversation and attention aren't winning me back. He doesn't want to understand.


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## English1979 (Nov 19, 2015)

The LD partner is less/not willing to change I've found. I've had talk after talk about it you keep compromising until you get to their level and even then you usually have to do all the work. I can understand that sometimes you're just not in the mood but to keep a happy marriage I think you should try harder to get in the mood. I think the person with the low drive underestimates how important it is.


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## English1979 (Nov 19, 2015)

I don't think you would get many LD partners on forums, reading books and on the internet trying to solve the problem. Most are obvious that there is one.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Hdsocal, you were asked many questions on your thread http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/241466-lack-passion-letter-talk.html that you never answered. As such, I'm not sure there's much else people can advise that hasn't already been advised with the information you provided. 

In general, you have two separate issues. 

1) you want your sex life to be something it's never been. You've mentioned in your other threads that sex with your wife has never met your expectations. You cannot create something that's never been there to begin with. Could you work on improving your sex life to what it was at the beginning of the marriage? Yes. Can you turn it into something it's never been? Not with your current partner. 

2) you want your wife to sexually desire you. You've described her a "willing but not wanting" and you want her to want you. Unfortunately, you cannot demand genuine desire. Many people on the 'letter' thread gave you suggestions on how to possibly get your wife to desire you. The advice from those who successfully turned their marriages around was to make changes to yourself rather than demanding it from your wife. They succeeded because their spouses responded to their changes. Did you try this approach with your wife? 

One of the recurring questions asked in your other threads is What exactly does 'desire' look like to you? If you can't describe it here then how is your wife supposed to know exactly what you expect?


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

@HDsocal










Most HD people on this forum look like this. Some get sex about four to five times a week while others with legitimate issues only get sex about once every other month.

Check yourself dude. 

As for pity sex being soul crushing... perhaps you need to step back a realize you do not know what you are doing. If I saw your wife out in a bar and started talking to her, I tell her that she probably going to get scared the first time I hook up with her, because I know what I am doing. Then I would just walk away! Afterwards she might try to find a quiet place to go masturbate while thinking about what I said. Notice the following:

• I never asked her to have sex.
• We never actually had sex.
• I gave her some space.

Perhaps you need to learn how to do that! Would you prefer to know your wife masturbated while wanting you, or you pushed her and she gave it to you so you would stop bothering her?

Badsanta


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

HDsocal said:


> ....If your LD spouse really going to make the effort, what would you want them to do? This can be a short term or a long term thing.


I am going to take your request at face value. 

Dear LD wife; I feel for you. Your HD Husband doesn't seem to realize that he can't force you to change, only you can change yourself. He can change himself and do things differently to change the dynamic in your relationship and if you respond by changing the way you treat him and he likes it, he can reinforce those changes he views positively.

He needs to understand that if he wants you to change, he needs to first change himself.

With that said, I offer three suggestions to you LD Wife.

(1) Get the book by Chapman called the 5 Languages of Love. Actually buy one copy for yourself and one for your H. Tell him to read it and study it.

In my Sex Starved Marriage (SSM) I learned that while my wife and I loved each other we were talking past each other. For example, when I want to say "I love you" my two love languages are touch and words of affirmation or praise. My wife would interpret my reaching out to touch her as "pawing at her" instead of my saying I love you. She would interpret my praising her as "buttering her up to get in her pants."

On the other hand, my wife when she wanted to say how much she loved me, would do an act of service like cook me a special meal and then want to have a heart to heart talk with me as quality time is another of her love languages. I liked the meal, but it didn't make me feel loved and the quality time felt like be interrogated to me. Again it didn't make me feel loved, it actually kind of pushed me away. If she was too tired for sex, how come should could go to all the effort to make a special meal? 

Learn to recognize your H's statements of love as statements of love. Learn how to express you love for your spouse both in your love languages and in theirs. In my SSM my LD wife didn't want to change until I started doing acts of service for her and providing her with quality time that allowed her to feel loved and cherished. Then she was willing to make changes to herself to make me feel more loved.

(2) Get a copy of the book by Sue Johnson, Hold Me Tight. It is about how important touch is in human relationships, about how infant primates will die and fail to thrive if denied touch. Touch is a very primal requirement for humans and especially men.

(3) Consider reading some of the Gottman's books or visit their website. My wife and I went to one of their weekend Art & Science of Love workshops and it really changed us and improved our marriage. Since your H is a DIY kind of guy you may want to read up (and have him especially read about) three things that the Gottmans are famous for.

(a) The 4 Communications mistakes that destroy marriages

How To Spot And Defeat The Four Marriage Killers - Simple Marriage -

(b) Simple rituals and reinforce bonding and the marriage. In the following article it is called the 5 magic hours. It requires your H to be an active participant. It has to be done by both of you.

Free Marriage Counseling: How to Do it Yourself | The Art of Manliness

(c) The Gottmans (a husband wife team) have a great method of negotiating grid lock issues. The above article will give some of their clues, but the key I got from the weekend we spent at one of their workshops, was: "Before I can negotiate and change with my spouse in a grid lock issue, I need to be able to articulate her position as well or better than she can."

What that means is that if I wanted my LD wife to change the frequency of our having sex, I needed to really spend a lot of time trying to understand her perspective. Only after I really understood her perspective, could I (knowing my perspective) suggest things that she might be willing to do that would not violate her core values. This would make me not ask for something she couldn't give me. Likewise, she needed to spend time learning about my needs and perspective, so that she would not reject things she could do that might help build the intimacy in our marriage.

In short, my advice to the LD wife is to understand what David Schnarch in his book the Passionate Marriage says. There is no right amount of sex in a marriage. He points out that there is a Low Desire (LD) and High desire component in every aspect of marriage and it is all about two people negotiating what works FOR THE BOTH OF THEM. For example, one partner may love chocolate ice cream and want it every night for dessert, while that other hates chocolate ice cream and can stand vanilla ice cream maybe once a week. There isn't a right amount of chocolate ice cream in a marriage. The LD chocolate ice cream spouse isn't "broken" if they can't stand chocolate ice cream. It is just one of thousands of things that two people in a marriage need to negotiate and find a compromise that will work for both of them. Sex is just one of those thousands of things in marriage that needs to be negotiated in a way that both can live with.

Good luck to you LD spouse! Your HD husband has a lot of learning and work to do, as do you. Help teach him what he needs to learn.


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

HDsocal said:


> Let me start with, been married over 20 yrs. Sex has been an issue with me want higher 'quality' sex more often than her. Many letters, talks etc over the years. Some of my old postings give more details.
> 
> But the upside, a few weeks ago we had another talk, I told her that this was going to be the last one, something has to give (not bluffing serious about it). I think that she understands the need for change, and we have had a great relationship since the talk. One thing she did (with my suggestion) is to setup an account on here and look at he LD/HD threads. I'm more of a fix it yourself kind of guy, she has always been a find advice from others, so..... knowing she will see this, I need the group's help.
> 
> ...


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## HDsocal (Nov 19, 2010)

Lila said:


> One of the recurring questions asked in your other threads is What exactly does 'desire' look like to you? If you can't describe it here then how is your wife supposed to know exactly what you expect?


I thought I answered this before but,

Desire is wanting to please your spouse because it makes you feel good to give them pleasure.

Desire is wanting to feel them touch you, because you genuinely want the touch.

Desire is knowing that your relationship is the most important thing, everything else is details (that you can take care of together if needed).

Desire is flirting, teasing, but knowing where it will end (happy ending)

Desire is is being your spouses BF/GF not just their husband / wife

Desire is being game to what your spouse wants to try (safe sane etc)

Desire is making the extra effort to make sure your spouse is happy (and knowing they want the same for you)


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## HDsocal (Nov 19, 2010)

> The advice from those who successfully turned their marriages around was to make changes to yourself rather than demanding it from your wife. They succeeded because their spouses responded to their changes. Did you try this approach with your wife?


Yup, many times, last year I lost a lot of weight, almost to the weight I was when we met. Didn't make a change in the relationship, have tried doing 180's, MMSL, none of them have moved the dynamic much long term.


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

What puzzles me is when these threads devolve into "LDs don't know that touch is important". We know that it is important and we also crave to be touched, issue comes when the HD spouse turns all touch into ways to have sex. Hugs, caresses and cuddles turn the HD on so they would initiate, which pressures us LDs because we are enjoying the touch as it is and we don't want more. This is why touch disappears in most sexless marriages.

HDsocal, do you do non-sexual touch in your marriage? I remember posting in your thread that if your wife never demonstrated HD tendencies she probably will never. You didn't address that part, you seem to be going in circles wishing she will be something she is not.

Which is why I say this, marry the HD woman if you are a HD man. Don't try to change someone after marriage.


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

You want your wife to be something she will never be. She is wise to not let you try and change her. People are never happy trying to be someone they are not.

Some words of wisdom for you:

_Yesterday I was clever, so I wanted to change the world. Today I am wise, so I am changing myself._ 
― Rumi


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

HDsocal said:


> I thought I answered this before but,
> 
> 1. Desire is wanting to please your spouse because it makes you feel good to give them pleasure.
> 
> ...


Honestly. I think you're confusing desire with other things. Some of the above can be asked of a spouse. Some cannot; it must be genuinely felt by them.

Numbers 1 and 2 are asking for her to want to feel things, DESIRE them. You cannot tell your wife to feel something that she doesn't feel. Those are her feelings and she's entitled to them. She either has genuine desire or not. 

Numbers 4 and 6 are personality traits. Some people are natural flirts and teases or sexually open minded. Other people, not so much. In the history of your relationship, has your wife ever shown you these characteristics? If not, you can ask her to perform them, but again they won't be genuine. Know that she's just acting the part to meet your need not because it's something she truly wants to do. 

Number 5 is a relationship dynamic issue. Some couples have to be each other's bffs to be happy. Other's function better without that connection. Sounds like you fall into the former category and she falls into the latter. This is a compatibility issue. Were you two every best friends ever in the history of your relationship? If so, what were the circumstances in the relationship that made that dynamic possible? 

Number 7 is another relationship dynamic issue. Some people believe that a good relationship is one where the spouses are focused on making each other happy. Others believe a good relationship is one where they don't rely on others to make them happy; instead they work on their own happiness and then share it with their partners. This is a compatibility issue. Which school of thought does your wife follow? 

Number 3 is a basic tenet of successful marriages. People prioritize the things they treasure most. If your wife does not prioritize the marriage over the silly things in life, then you have bigger issues. One caveat is children. You brought them into the world so you have to prioritize their well being. But this doesn't mean your marriage and kids can't share the #1 spot.


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## desiresmore (Oct 15, 2013)

Some people are quick to minimize sex in a relationship, but I think that is a very narrow view in and of itself. When a relationship is good, sex is a minimal part of the overall whole (although still good). When the relationship is bad, and sex is an issue, then its a huge issue. You have to view these things holistically since we are not compartmentalized beings. If the sex life is suffering in a relationship, if there are inhibitions and selfishness and control problems - then the relationship will suffer, its a killer. From a biological standpoint, any spouse who minimizes a good sex life as part of their relationship basically shoots themselves in the foot. Sex with an orgasm is what helps to create bonding hormones and creates feelings of love, closeness, bonding and intimacy. So I don't understand why some people minimize sex and act like its no big deal. It is, it is, it is.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

desiresmore said:


> Some people are quick to minimize sex in a relationship, but I think that is a very narrow view in and of itself. When a relationship is good, sex is a minimal part of the overall whole (although still good). When the relationship is bad, and sex is an issue, then its a huge issue. You have to view these things holistically since we are not compartmentalized beings. If the sex life is suffering in a relationship, if there are inhibitions and selfishness and control problems - then the relationship will suffer, its a killer. From a biological standpoint, any spouse who minimizes a good sex life as part of their relationship basically shoots themselves in the foot. Sex with an orgasm is what helps to create bonding hormones and creates feelings of love, closeness, bonding and intimacy. So I don't understand why some people minimize sex and act like its no big deal. It is, it is, it is.


I don't think anyone is minimizing the value of sex. We are just pointing out that he needs to *inspire* her desire, not demand it.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

desiresmore said:


> Some people are quick to minimize sex in a relationship, but I think that is a very narrow view in and of itself. When a relationship is good, sex is a minimal part of the overall whole (although still good). When the relationship is bad, and sex is an issue, then its a huge issue. You have to view these things holistically since we are not compartmentalized beings. If the sex life is suffering in a relationship, if there are inhibitions and selfishness and control problems - then the relationship will suffer, its a killer. From a biological standpoint, any spouse who minimizes a good sex life as part of their relationship basically shoots themselves in the foot. Sex with an orgasm is what helps to create bonding hormones and creates feelings of love, closeness, bonding and intimacy. So I don't understand why some people minimize sex and act like its no big deal. It is, it is, it is.



What constitutes a good sex life is highly subjective. To one person it might be a couple of times a week of basic sex and to another it might mean daily porn sex. 

But you cannot demand desire..... you can try to inspire it, and you can demand more sex under threat of divorce. But said threat of divorce at best is going to get you a partner who complies,, not one who wants it or wishes to participate in teasing and flirting. 

It's really no different them hiring a prostitute.

I can't imagine a bigger turnoff then forcing someone to flirt and have sex under threat of divorce. 

And as Lila pointed out, his wife has always been like this so in that sense it's a little selfish of him to now demand that she change. 

It may be that they're not compatible. ... he's not going to get what he's looking for unless he can somehow inspire it. Writing letters with demands and threats won't inspire anything except resentment.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## November (Nov 28, 2013)

What does HD/LD stand for?

I searched my DB of several hundred acronyms and googled it without success?


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

HDsocal said:


> I thought I answered this before but,
> 
> Desire is wanting to please your spouse because it makes you feel good to give them pleasure.
> 
> ...



*Sexual desire by scientific definition is a paired system of curiosity and motivation.*

If you as a spouse have a lot of desire, then you know how to stimulate yourself by actively pursuing your curiosities throughout the day (thoughts, reading, TV, internet, conversation, flirtation, teasing, openness to try new things, etc). 

In contrast if your spouse has little or no desire, odds are they are likely overwhelmed by your curiosity. 

Imagine if things were the other way around... Come on @HDsocal I want to to take some of the kid's next door ritalin because that will make you a better listener when we have our talks, and I really crave the ecstatic emotional connection that will help create between the two of us. After lunch you can take me shoe shopping and help me pick out a stunning new dress for that expensive date you will plan for us later in the evening. .... I'm pretty sure by the end of this day you would feel irritable and have a headache and just want to be left alone while your wife would want to rip you apart in the bedroom. Odds are some wife reading this will get sad and not understand why a husband would never want to do this with her, just like when you get sad and frustrated as to why your wife does not want to dress up in kinky lingerie and work hard at being your sexual mistress. 










Regards, 
Badsanta


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

The more I read these, the more I realize some folks just shouldn't be married to each other.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

ThePheonix said:


> The more I read these, the more I realize some folks just shouldn't be married to each other.


Yep. Mismatches.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

November said:


> What does HD/LD stand for?
> 
> I searched my DB of several hundred acronyms and googled it without success?


HD=high sexual demand/desire, like sex frequently to be happy
LD=low or little sexual demand/desired. Not into sex that much


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## November (Nov 28, 2013)

Young at Heart said:


> HD=high sexual demand/desire, like sex frequently to be happy
> LD=low or little sexual demand/desired. Not into sex that much


Young, thanks... just figured it out.


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## November (Nov 28, 2013)

Young at Heart said:


> (b) Simple rituals and reinforce bonding and the marriage. In the following article it is called the 5 magic hours. It requires your H to be an active participant. It has to be done by both of you.
> 
> Free Marriage Counseling: How to Do it Yourself | The Art of Manliness


Young,

Where is the 5 magic hours? Searched the web site... nothing. Thx


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

November said:


> Young,
> 
> Where is the 5 magic hours? Searched the web site... nothing. Thx


He has increased it from 5hrs when I took his workshop to almost 6 hours a week.

You should get one of the Gottman books. But in the meantime.

https://trilogycommunications.wordpress.com/2008/08/24/five-magic-hours-that-could-save-your-marriage/

Or toward the bottom of the page on this site
Free Marriage Counseling: How to Do it Yourself | The Art of Manliness​


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

HDsocal said:


> Yup, many times, last year I lost a lot of weight, almost to the weight I was when we met. Didn't make a change in the relationship, have tried doing 180's, MMSL, none of them have moved the dynamic much long term.


One of the things I learned from my SSM was that my marriage was actually a high stakes game of trial and error. When I finally figured out Glover's NMMNG and MW Davis SSM books, I got two different perspectives on how to do a 180. When I read and understood D. Schnarch in his book the Passionate Marriage, I finally understood that doing a 180 was about trying different things, analyzing the results. Schnarch feels that marriage is very hard as it forces you to stretch your boundaries and grow or differentiate yourself in ways that aren't natural to you. To accomplish that you need to be able to self-sooth or break the new tasks down into small steps, each of which is achievable. Trying something else see the results of that and triangulating in on a set of things that produce results that I liked. Each time I did a new 180, was me changing something about myself. 

A Schnarch example might be overcoming fear of heights. We did this in a rock climbing class I took. First they lectured us about the difference between actual danger in hanging of a cliff and fall in to one's death versus be attached to a solid anchor by a rope and at most falling 3 feet, which wouldn't hurt you. Then we got up on an inside practice rock wall, and let go to be caught by the rope after a short fall. We lived. then we went up higher and repeated. Etc. Etc. Soon we were out in the real mountains looking down a rock cliff 1000 feet down, but anchored and belayed on a rope. We were taught not to look down, but to focus on where we put our hands and feet and trust the group leader who was belaying us. After a while by self soothing and stretching my experiences, I was able to overcome a fear of heights. The point is that 180's involve changes in yourself and who you are. To accomplish that you need to change yourself. To change yourself you may need to grow, stretch, and calm your fears.

One of the 180's I tried that worked was dropping all my anger and resentment toward my wife. That was really hard. But I was able to do that and really forgive her.

Another 180 that was almost as hard to master was when my wife would try to pick a fight with me, just not take the bait. Sometimes if I did things that make her feel emotionally close, she would say things to start a fight so she could regain her emotional distance. I read somewhere that if I didn't respond with anger, we wouldn't have a fight. So I tried once when she wanted to start a fight after I had taken her out to a nice restaurant. She basically said that something I had done was disrespectful. I said I didn't mean it that way, but was sorry she felt that way. She tried to up the attack and said something really nasty about may always having been xyz. I smiled and looked her in the eyes and asked why did she say that? She was stunned...deer in headlights. I then asked if she had wanted us to fight. She apologized and said she didn't know why she had said what she had said.

My wife told me that she never touched me, because if she did, it just ended up me wanting sex. In one of my 180's I told her that I didn't believe her and said that no matter what she did for the next two months I would not have sex with her nor ask for sex. I said that as important as sex was to me, having her learn to touch me was almost as important. At first she didn't trust me, but ultimately she learned that she could and so made tiny steps in trying to put her hands on me in a non sexual, but loving way. She had an incredibly hard time with that.

Another 180 was bringing her coffee in bed each morning as an act of service that she recognized as an act of service (many of the chores around the house I picked up on, she didn't view as acts of service, but simply a fair division of the labor). As she woke up, I would talk to her about her day (quality time). She started the day feeling loved in two of her love languages (Chapman's 5 LL). Then at night I would ask if I could help with making dinner, bring her a glass of wine (she viewed both as an act of service) then at dinner look her in the eyes and talked to her, asking questions about her day that I had remembered from the morning discussion. That way she ended the day feeling loved and cherished as well. Those rituals are still part of our life today. The reason they continue is because she treats me much better when she feels loved and cherished.

Another 180 that worked for me was spending quality time away from her. By that I mean doing things with my adult sons and friends that were outdoor activities, my wife wasn't interested in doing. Rock climbing, mountain climbing, backpacking, long bike trips. Actually some of the trips were with a club that had lots of women members who participated in the trips. It was interesting at some of my wife's work social parties, I would talk to people about my latest adventures and many of the women either flirted with me about some of the interesting physical accomplishments I had done. That really caused my wife to view me differently. 

If the 180's you tried didn't work, it is because you didn't figure out the right ones. If you are really giving up on 180's, it may be time for professional marriage counseling or sex therapist and/or divorce attorney.

Good luck.






​


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## NoSizeQueen (Sep 9, 2015)

Young at Heart said:


> Another 180 was bringing her coffee in bed each morning as an act of service that she recognized as an act of service (many of the chores around the house I picked up on, she didn't view as acts of service, but simply a fair division of the labor). As she woke up, I would talk to her about her day (quality time). She started the day feeling loved in two of her love languages (Chapman's 5 LL). Then at night I would ask if I could help with making dinner, bring her a glass of wine (she viewed both as an act of service) then at dinner look her in the eyes and talked to her, asking questions about her day that I had remembered from the morning discussion. That way she ended the day feeling loved and cherished as well. Those rituals are still part of our life today. The reason they continue is because she treats me much better when she feels loved and cherished.


I wanted to highlight this bit, because it's a point I see people missing again and again on these HD/LD threads.

We have a natural tendency to assume that other people think the way we do. But they don't!

You thought you were doing an act of service by doing chores, but she didn't see it that way. But instead of insisting that she DID treat it as an act of service, you changed course and did things that she really did see as service. Good call! If you had stubbornly insisted that your wife acknowledge your chores as acts of service, she wouldn't have felt any more loved by them. But she WOULD have felt unheard.

So often we see one partner saying they're doing all the right things, when they really seem to be doing the things they THINK should be right and then wondering why their partner doesn't accept their gestures and feel loved.

We don't get to decide what our partners should want. Sometimes the things they want don't even make sense to us. But we need to meet them on those terms, and treat them the way they want to be treated. They won't work to meet your desires unless you work to meet theirs!


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## NoSizeQueen (Sep 9, 2015)

OP, the reason I'm pointing this out is because you seem to have a very clear idea of how you think your wife SHOULD express desire, but it doesn't seem to be her natural expression. You're asking her to put on a performance for you, then you're upset because it's not genuine. But it won't be genuine, because that's just not how she functions. And you don't get to decide how she functions, only whether or not you can live with it. But if you can make her feel loved and accepted on her terms, she may be more willing to make you feel loved and accepted on your terms, and it will feel much more genuine to you because instead of just trying to appease you, she'll be trying to make you as happy as you make her!

There's nothing wrong with you wanting to feel wanted. But how many of her expressions of love go unseen by you, because you're looking for the ones you feel you should be getting? Are you willing to accept her genuine expressions of love and desire, even if they don't look like you want them to?


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## HDsocal (Nov 19, 2010)

Young at Heart, I agree with your trial, learn re-calibrate, try again approach. I'm convinced there are no silver bullets, only many 'course corrections' that get to the right path.

Lots of discussions about 'the letter', my W knows that i usually don't write things down like that, by writing her a letter, it showed her that this is something that is thought out and serious, not just a rant or a flippant comment. Does it sound like a list of demands, i guess that it could be seen that way, to my W, I don't think so, I think she read it as 'he is very serious', plus by writing it down, she can reflect on it, or ask specific questions. I wanted to be clear that this is very important.

Having needs isn't needy, it is being human. I think the power dynamic side of things may work for some relationships, but not others. I have read MMSL, tried it, tried it as part of a 180. Didn't change things, just made me feel more distant from her.




> If I saw your wife out in a bar and started talking to her, I tell her that she probably going to get scared the first time I hook up with her, because I know what I am doing.


quite the turn on.. really? c'mon, would that work with some woman in a bar, possibly. Not most...... I don't disagree that women want a 'strong' man, but a cliche pick up line, doubt it. 

true desire from her, I know that there isn't a switch, it can't be demanded, blackmailed, or created by threats. But a truly sincere effort to improve things would be great. If it succeeds in long term happiness, even better, but the worst response is apathy. I told her that apathy will kill the marriage.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

HDsocal said:


> Young at Heart, I agree with your trial, learn re-calibrate, try again approach. I'm convinced there are no silver bullets, only many 'course corrections' that get to the right path.
> 
> Lots of discussions about 'the letter', my W knows that i usually don't write things down like that, by writing her a letter, it showed her that this is something that is thought out and serious, not just a rant or a flippant comment. Does it sound like a list of demands, i guess that it could be seen that way, to my W, I don't think so, I think she read it as 'he is very serious', plus by writing it down, she can reflect on it, or ask specific questions. I wanted to be clear that this is very important.
> 
> ...



I have never been a fan of the sex rank MMSL approach to relationships. I just don't think it works with most women who are not highly insecure, which is not the kind I prefer.

I don't see Glover, MW Davis or others saying an MMSL approach works in rebuilding or saving a marriage. I think that the Gottmans would string up anyone with such an approach. MMSL might in finding a mate or trading up to a trophy wife, but again, that is not my thing. Doesn't mean it isn't what some men want.

As to true desire....being unconditionally loved everyday in your very own love languages is very seductive....or at least it was to my wife. Feeling you can count on unconditional love with no stings attached was something that my wife came to enjoy and rely upon and above all need. To use another couples relationship concept, when her Love Bank was filled to overflowing, she was much more loving toward me. When she thought she might loose me, she realized that she desired me and desired that feeling of being loved.

Good luck to you and good luck to your wife. Rebuilding a marriage and especially negotiating grid lock issues is a challenge.


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