# Why Do People Stonewall?



## aquarius1 (May 10, 2019)

So. Now it's my turn. Sure, I’m great at giving advice but apparently not very good at applying it to my own life. Typical. 
My husband and I have been together for 33 years, married for 28. It has not been without its share of woes, believe me. But the one thing he does that drives me bananas is stonewalling when we argue. He can go at it for days, not say a thing, then get up one morning, make coffee and pretend like nothing happened. I’m ALWAYS the first one to make overtures and I’m tired of it. I’ve tried waiting him out, but he can go for DAYS like I said. Good lawd I have tried to explain it to him, how it hurts. 
MC? Been there, many times. IC? that too. I’m not getting through and I’m tired. It leaves me feeling alone and unloved.
Any thoughts?

UPDATE: Sorry for the delay getting back to everyone. Busy busy weekend


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## blazer prophet (Jun 1, 2019)

I don't know where you may want this to end up, but there's an old saying that to save a marriage you must be fully prepared to end a marriage. I mean, I don't know if this is just a marital annoyance or a really serious issue that has to be dealt with. If it's really serious, then you need to challenge him and fight him. As an example, leave or throw him out (even if an in-house separation) and when he is ready to talk, then things can slowly return to normal. Or, if it's an annoyance issue, do a bit of a 180 on him. See how that works out.


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## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

ah, the silent treatment.

I do this sometimes, not proud of it.

But, at times, I really do think it's better to say nothing than something even more stupid or hurtful. 

After the coffee is made and he's chatty again, is the original issue not raised again?


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## aquarius1 (May 10, 2019)

OnTheFly said:


> ah, the silent treatment.
> 
> I do this sometimes, not proud of it.
> 
> ...


Not by him. He wants to move on. Me, I need to work it out, understand it. Learn from it. MC advised him he has to circle back around to the issue, but he’d rather just forget it.


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## aquarius1 (May 10, 2019)

blazer prophet said:


> I don't know where you may want this to end up, but there's an old saying that to save a marriage you must be fully prepared to end a marriage. I mean, I don't know if this is just a marital annoyance or a really serious issue that has to be dealt with. If it's really serious, then you need to challenge him and fight him. As an example, leave or throw him out (even if an in-house separation) and when he is ready to talk, then things can slowly return to normal. Or, if it's an annoyance issue, do a bit of a 180 on him. See how that works out.


I’m all for this. Tried it. Miserable impasses with no sex for months. He slept in a separate bedroom He just doesn’t get it. We talked divorce for a while. Tried again. It’s been great for 8 months as long as I refuse to be bothered by this issue. He can’t or won’t change. Not sure which.


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## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

aquarius1 said:


> Not by him. He wants to move on. Me, I need to work it out, understand it. Learn from it. MC advised him he has to circle back around to the issue, but he’d rather just forget it.


ah, I see.

I'm not sure if I have any useful suggestions. 

On the occasions I do this, my wife doesn't try to get me to talk, it's in essence a stalemate.

But to our credit, things eventually get sorted, mostly.


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## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

aquarius1 said:


> It’s been great for 8 months as long as I refuse to be bothered by this issue.


Is this tongue-in-cheek/sarcastic, or true?


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

He obviously doesn't care that you don't like his method of handling disagreements (and he doesn't care what the therapist recommended either). If he can't or won't change then that only leaves you with the usual options. You have to decide which option is less painful.


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

OnTheFly said:


> ah, the silent treatment.
> 
> I do this sometimes, not proud of it.
> 
> ...


Do your silent treatments last for minutes to a few hours, or for multiple *days*?

I think she said this goes on for *days*. Stepping away so you don't say or do something regrettable and irreversible is one thing. Giving the silent treatment for DAYS is entirely different. If you need DAYS to collect yourself, either you have mental problems or you married someone who does.

My ex did that exactly three times. The third time I realized I did not consider myself married if I could not access my "spouse." When he decided to speak after a 3 day "treatment" I let him know it would never happen again, or we simply would not remain married. I put up with a LOT of stuff no one else would put up with. I was such a doormat/push over. But even I had to wonder, what is the POINT in being tied to a person you can't communicate with?

To his credit he never did that again. Unfortunately there were too many other issues.


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

aquarius1 said:


> I’m all for this. Tried it. Miserable impasses with no sex for months. He slept in a separate bedroom He just doesn’t get it. We talked divorce for a while. Tried again. It’s been great for 8 months as long as I refuse to be bothered by this issue. He can’t or won’t change. Not sure which.


Can we ask the nature of the issue? Are we talking leaving his dirty socks on the floor, unhealthy eating habits, sleeping with prostitutes, or kicking the dog when he's mad level of issue?

Aside from this ONE issue is everything else pretty good?

How important is this issue to you?

For what it's worth, I consider the silent treatment unacceptable and grounds for divorce. I understand stepping away to cool down. I don't accept days of sulky punishing to try to get your way a cool down period.

Why can't he discuss this issue with you? Do you really think it is something he might not be able to change?


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*It's been my experience that "stonewalling" chiefly occurs out of one's(1) outright fear, (2) their not knowing how to do something correctly and their inability to admit it, and (3) trying to cover up a lie, a blatant mistruth, or something so egregiously stupid that they are simply downright ashamed of it!*


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

I don’t think you get it @aquarius1.
Because you have always been the one who offered an olive branch, offered counseling or just moved on without actually sorting out the problem, he sees it as him “winning”.
He just thinks he’s better at arguing than you and he sees his refusal to back down or consider the opinions of independent counselors as him having a “backbone”. 
I don’t know what exactly you can do because he’s not going to change without a struggle and are you prepared to go to the wall with this or will you back down again?


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## hubbyintrubby (Jul 5, 2019)

I know in the regrettable moments and instances that I've stonewalled, it's been because of a feeling that no matter what comes out of my mouth in the moment, it will be seen as wrong by my wife so in that moment, no matter what comes out, it's not worth the effort to continue. I'm not saying it's the right thing to do, but it's happened.

If you know anything about John Gottman and his studies on love, marriage, conflict, etc...stonewalling is considered one of the "4 horseman of the apocalypse" that can predict the end of a relationship. Criticism, Contempt, Defensiveness and Stonewalling. Stonewalling is generally a reaction to contempt per the Gottman Institute. 

Do you feel as if contempt is also a problem in the relationship? From either yourself or him?


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## hptessla (Jun 4, 2019)

Oooooh, I hate this topic!
We just had a discussion of this last night, how we deal with conflict/arguments. I spent a good few minutes last night and this morning pondering this...again. I got no answers here; well, I have 'answers' but nothing constructive.

The silence is so destructive in my perspective, nothing ever gets really talked about because once it gets difficult there's the shut down. In our case I partly see it as cultural in the sense of where we grew up and also family culture. I grew up in the Northeast and she in the south. I grew up with a mother who was openly argumentative/vocal. Her mother will avoid confrontation at almost any cost.
In my view an argument is not necessarily going to solve something or change an opinion but through arguing you can get closer to understanding. I also don't consider a discussion where people disagree an argument as much as a discussion. My wife sees most discussions where there is any passionate feeling as arguments. She generally disengages and says she disagrees and doesn't want to argue. Her claim is also that I want to tell her she's wrong and that she doesn't want to listen to me do that. To her disagreeing and not arguing/discussing is not a backhanded way of saying the same thing...to me it is a backhanded way of saying 'I'm right, you're wrong' without the respect to debate any merits of either argument.

I don't think we will ever get much beyond it. I do know that it triggers me most likely from childhood roots when my older brother would disagree and go the 'um-huh, sure' route and disengage that way. I've done that with my wife and that exasperates her too.
I've never told her why her why her approach exasperates me. Hmmm...


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## RubyRing (Jun 13, 2016)

hubbyintrubby said:


> If you know anything about John Gottman and his studies on love, marriage, conflict, etc...stonewalling is considered one of the "4 horseman of the apocalypse" that can predict the end of a relationship. Criticism, Contempt, Defensiveness and Stonewalling. Stonewalling is generally a reaction to contempt per the Gottman Institute.


My marriage to my ex exhibited ALL four of the above. Especially the stonewalling. Funny, the stonewalling didn't even take place after an argument. Everyday conversations became a teeth pulling event. I would ask a simple question, and either got dead silence or a grunt. If I asked again in response to silence he would say in a very contemptuous voice "I HEARD YOU THE FIRST TIME". I would say, "well, when you don't respond, I don't know if you didn't hear me, or if you are just ignoring the question" followed up by his usual response is "Now isn't a good time to talk about it". And when was a good time to talk about anything ? Never. A simple question to him such as "How was your day" would elicit a "I just go home, I need to unwind". Then later in the evening he was to hungry to talk. He also tried to institute a "no talking at the dinner table" to try and shut down convo between myself and our son, but I immediately told him that I would not be silenced in my own home, at my own table at a dinner I cooked for everyone" Then of course after dinner wasn't a good time to talk because he was still "digesting his food", and then after he digested his food he was too tired to talk. Lather rinse and repeat.

I was so oblivious to the signs of an affair, I thought lipstick on the collar, smelling like another womans' perfume were the signs to look for, but as I went through the process of having that marriage end, learned that stonewalling was a distancing behavior by a spouse having an affair or trying to end the marriage by getting the OTHER spouse to initiate the divorce.

Getting back to the OP. Does your hubby pick fights with you so he can retreat into days of silence ? Does he frequently criticize you over the smallest, inconsequential things ? If so, perhaps he is engaging in distancing behavior to try and drive YOU to divorce him. Perhaps you can try to ascertain if he is wanting to split up and that's why he is behaving this way. If that's what he wants, then you know what to do . . .


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

aquarius1 said:


> I’m all for this. Tried it. Miserable impasses with no sex for months. He slept in a separate bedroom He just doesn’t get it. We talked divorce for a while. Tried again. It’s been great for 8 months as long as I refuse to be bothered by this issue. He can’t or won’t change. Not sure which.


If your husband stonewalls you, shuts down, and withdraws in order to get his way every time... that is an example of him having passive aggressive temper tantrums. A good marriage is about trust and communication and as a couple you should be able to discuss everything. There are some challenging topics:



 to have or not have children
 setting boundaries with other family members
 finances 
 career aspirations that require a change in lifestyle 
 cultural and religious issues

The above list are examples of things that many marriages struggle with and often find issues that are irreconcilable and impossible to resolve. However it is important that problematic topics remain open for discussion and there be continued efforts to keep engaging issues even if they are irreconcilable. *Failure to do so will cause the marriage to fail.*

Now on the other hand if you are being obsessive compulsive about an argument related to your husband spitting his chewing tobacco in the floorboards of the truck, just rhino coat the whole interior and pressure wash it out as soon as he gets home and opens the door with him still inside the cab of his truck. Don't ever bring up the topic for discussion again. 

Cheers, 
Badsanta


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## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

Some people Grey Rock others......but they have a reason to do so.


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## aquarius1 (May 10, 2019)

OnTheFly said:


> Is this tongue-in-cheek/sarcastic, or true?


this unfortunately is true


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## aquarius1 (May 10, 2019)

blazer prophet said:


> I don't know where you may want this to end up, but there's an old saying that to save a marriage you must be fully prepared to end a marriage. I mean, I don't know if this is just a marital annoyance or a really serious issue that has to be dealt with. If it's really serious, then you need to challenge him and fight him. As an example, leave or throw him out (even if an in-house separation) and when he is ready to talk, then things can slowly return to normal. Or, if it's an annoyance issue, do a bit of a 180 on him. See how that works out.


Thanks blazer. I guess i was looking for more of the why.


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## aquarius1 (May 10, 2019)

WorkingWife said:


> Can we ask the nature of the issue? Are we talking leaving his dirty socks on the floor, unhealthy eating habits, sleeping with prostitutes, or kicking the dog when he's mad level of issue?
> 
> Aside from this ONE issue is everything else pretty good?
> 
> ...


It varies. Arguments start for various reasons. He's a stand up guy in other areas (although after lurking here for a few months I get paranoid lol). I wish I could say its one particular issue but it isn't. I would say normal human stuff...no dirty socks or dog kicking and no prostitutes that I'm aware of. Its more about time spent working, feeling alone, not initiating sex (him not me)


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## aquarius1 (May 10, 2019)

arbitrator said:


> *It's been my experience that "stonewalling" chiefly occurs out of one's(1) outright fear, (2) their not knowing how to do something correctly and their inability to admit it, and (3) trying to cover up a lie, a blatant mistruth, or something so egregiously stupid that they are simply downright ashamed of it!*


thank you arbitrator. I got a little further this weekend when I was told "I just don't know what to say". Don't see that as a valid excuse. I think it's important to try, even if its just to say "I don't know what to say" its the effort that breaks the impasse


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## aquarius1 (May 10, 2019)

Andy1001 said:


> I don’t think you get it @aquarius1.
> Because you have always been the one who offered an olive branch, offered counseling or just moved on without actually sorting out the problem, he sees it as him “winning”.
> He just thinks he’s better at arguing than you and he sees his refusal to back down or consider the opinions of independent counselors as him having a “backbone”.
> I don’t know what exactly you can do because he’s not going to change without a struggle and are you prepared to go to the wall with this or will you back down again?


THIS! It's because I've always been the one to make the first move. While I don't agree with him being the winning or backbone kind of guy as he's pretty mild mannered. I tend to agree with others, its more fear of Fing up or he's hurt and not realizing the damage that's being done. I'm hurt too. But somebody's gotta budge if this intends to get worked out. And it can't always be me. It begins to make me feel like I'm the only one keeping this boat afloat


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## aquarius1 (May 10, 2019)

hubbyintrubby said:


> I know in the regrettable moments and instances that I've stonewalled, it's been because of a feeling that no matter what comes out of my mouth in the moment, it will be seen as wrong by my wife so in that moment, no matter what comes out, it's not worth the effort to continue. I'm not saying it's the right thing to do, but it's happened.
> 
> If you know anything about John Gottman and his studies on love, marriage, conflict, etc...stonewalling is considered one of the "4 horseman of the apocalypse" that can predict the end of a relationship. Criticism, Contempt, Defensiveness and Stonewalling. Stonewalling is generally a reaction to contempt per the Gottman Institute.
> 
> Do you feel as if contempt is also a problem in the relationship? From either yourself or him?


Actually, contempt used to be a big one too. Suddenly when I turned over 50 I realized that I was "dehumanizing" my partner with this approach. So I tried to change my viewpoint.



hptessla said:


> Oooooh, I hate this topic!
> We just had a discussion of this last night, how we deal with conflict/arguments. I spent a good few minutes last night and this morning pondering this...again. I got no answers here; well, I have 'answers' but nothing constructive.
> 
> The silence is so destructive in my perspective, nothing ever gets really talked about because once it gets difficult there's the shut down. In our case I partly see it as cultural in the sense of where we grew up and also family culture. I grew up in the Northeast and she in the south. I grew up with a mother who was openly argumentative/vocal. Her mother will avoid confrontation at almost any cost.
> ...


I'm really familiar with Gottman's work. I'm a keen student of marriage studies and soak up stuff regularly. That said, I think that the stonewaller doesn't realize how truly destructive their behaviour is. While I agree that if a person stonewalls "deliberately" to gain the upper hand or control the situation or punish this is a death knell, I feel that silence brought on by hurt or not knowing what to say comes from a different motivation. Problem is, they are both SO damaging. I know that often guys don't want to talk the crap out of things, but if the issue continues to surface, then if we are not going to talk about our feelings (lol) we have to at least come to some compromise for the sake of the fact that there are two people here who need to feel heard.
And to be completely fair, I'm no saint. While he is silent, I'm the mouthpiece. I too came from an openly argumentative family, its how we work things out. But my words can be damaging, to the point where I went to anger management classes 20 years ago. Is this one of the reasons maybe? I can't believe that its not a factor. I'm getting much better at controlling my mouth, but sometimes I'm just so fed up at not getting through...


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## aquarius1 (May 10, 2019)

RubyRing said:


> My marriage to my ex exhibited ALL four of the above. Especially the stonewalling. Funny, the stonewalling didn't even take place after an argument. Everyday conversations became a teeth pulling event. I would ask a simple question, and either got dead silence or a grunt. If I asked again in response to silence he would say in a very contemptuous voice "I HEARD YOU THE FIRST TIME". I would say, "well, when you don't respond, I don't know if you didn't hear me, or if you are just ignoring the question" followed up by his usual response is "Now isn't a good time to talk about it". And when was a good time to talk about anything ? Never. A simple question to him such as "How was your day" would elicit a "I just go home, I need to unwind". Then later in the evening he was to hungry to talk. He also tried to institute a "no talking at the dinner table" to try and shut down convo between myself and our son, but I immediately told him that I would not be silenced in my own home, at my own table at a dinner I cooked for everyone" Then of course after dinner wasn't a good time to talk because he was still "digesting his food", and then after he digested his food he was too tired to talk. Lather rinse and repeat.
> 
> I was so oblivious to the signs of an affair, I thought lipstick on the collar, smelling like another womans' perfume were the signs to look for, but as I went through the process of having that marriage end, learned that stonewalling was a distancing behavior by a spouse having an affair or trying to end the marriage by getting the OTHER spouse to initiate the divorce.
> 
> Getting back to the OP. Does your hubby pick fights with you so he can retreat into days of silence ? Does he frequently criticize you over the smallest, inconsequential things ? If so, perhaps he is engaging in distancing behavior to try and drive YOU to divorce him. Perhaps you can try to ascertain if he is wanting to split up and that's why he is behaving this way. If that's what he wants, then you know what to do . . .


Another thing that does drive me crazy is exactly as you said. No response and then "I heard you" but I get this from my teenage kids too. I've had to learn to let it go. Don't answer me? No worries. Life goes on. To answer your questions, no, he doesn't pick fights. He doesn't criticize me, mainly because I would honestly tell him to F off. I grew up in a house with strong women, and I am surrounded by them at work. It's not funny how such a seemingly innocent thing like silence can turn me upside down


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

aquarius1 said:


> Not by him. He wants to move on. Me, I need to work it out, understand it. Learn from it. MC advised him he has to circle back around to the issue, but he’d rather just forget it.


Ah, so he's not giving you the silent treatment or the cold shoulder, he's just acting like there is no disagreement, everything is fine. Nothing to see here folks, move along.

What does he say/do if/when you bring the subject up again?
Have you told him "This is important to me, it's bothering me and I can't move on until we have a civilized discussion about it."

Was he always avoidant like this? Or did this grow over the years? If it has grown over the years it's probably a self defense mechanism he developed in the face of your past contempt and anger. If he's always been this way... It could be so many things but whatever it is, it will kill your love for him. There's nothing more frustrating than feeling like you can't reach/communicate with someone.

I don't know if it's a "man" thing or must the men I've been drawn to. But guys have been this way to some extent or another in every relationship I've had. Only my recent ex would flat out refuse to engage though. I literally could not get him to have a serious discussion with me.

As for guys in general, keep in mind that women usually have better language skills than men. As a general rule, we can typically out maneuver them in a verbal battle, all other things being equal. This may be one reason a guy checks out -- he feels out matched, that you'll get your point across and he won't get his across, and it's better to just forfeit than put himself through the ordeal.

Something I've had some success with is saying "I'm too emotional right now, but I need to talk with you about this. Can we talk about it ____. Then hold him to it because he is NOT going to bring the subject back up. But that gives both of you some time to cool down and gather your thoughts on the subject. Then when you do talk, DO NOT interrupt him, dismiss him, etc. Make it a point to SEE his point of view, but also insist he consider yours and take it seriously.

If he's like my ex though and just deflects, goes silent, makes jokes, dismisses your opinion, makes more jokes, tells you you're confused about your own emotions on the subject, etc. I think the only thing you can do is tell him "This is no longer tolerable to me. I don't want to be in a marriage where I can't express my concerns to my husband."

ALSO - I'd apologize to him for your past anger and contempt and tell him you promise not to treat him that way, you really DO want to know his point of view and come up with a solution that works for both of you.


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

arbitrator said:


> It's been my experience that "stonewalling" chiefly occurs out of one's(1) outright fear





aquarius1 said:


> While he is silent, I'm the mouthpiece. I too came from an openly argumentative family, its how we work things out. But my words can be damaging, to the point where I went to anger management classes 20 years ago. Is this one of the reasons maybe? I can't believe that its not a factor. I'm getting much better at controlling my mouth, but sometimes I'm just so fed up at not getting through...


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

aquarius1 said:


> Another thing that does drive me crazy is exactly as you said. No response and then "I heard you" but I get this from my teenage kids too. I've had to learn to let it go. Don't answer me? No worries. Life goes on. To answer your questions, no, he doesn't pick fights.


To the no response and then "I heard you" I think I would walk over, get right in front of him, make eye contact and ask follow up questions. What's your honest opinion on that? Do you agree with my point of view or do you just want me to leave you alone about this? Will you try XYZ in the future?




aquarius1 said:


> He doesn't criticize me, mainly because I would honestly tell him to F off. I grew up in a house with strong women, and I am surrounded by them at work. It's not funny how such a seemingly innocent thing like silence can turn me upside down


OK, so... there are "strong women" and then there are Defensive, insecure, *****y women. In my mind, a "strong" woman can handle criticism with grace and give it consideration. Why would you tell him to F-k off if he criticized you? What if he has a legitimate gripe? No one is perfect. If he knows he's going to be told to F-ck off if he criticizes you, then I think that explains why he would avoid heavy "discussions" with you at all cost.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

In discussions with my wife, things can go bad in a hurry because she speaks too quickly (without fully considering what she's saying and the consequences), while I'll take a more deliberate approach to a question from her, taking my time to think about the answer before talking. There might be a 15 second pause before I speak. Doesn't seem like much, but she thinks it means I don't want to answer the question. It's really strange. I think it's important to articulate something as well as possible, and present it in a way that the other person might be receptive to. She'd rather be a dragon, burning anything that she disagrees with. 

What I do wouldn't fit any definition of stonewalling, but maybe it could lead to that if someone got frustrated enough? Maybe that's how it starts?


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

The more and more I read the more I think he's just scared of you. Being a "strong woman" is often a false description. 

When you guys have an argument, is it basically always when he is in the wrong? Do you have arguments where you are in the wrong?


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

OnTheFly said:


> ah, the silent treatment.
> 
> I do this sometimes, not proud of it.
> 
> ...


Some people use this tactic as a way of taking a topic off the table for discussion. This is discussed in the book Too Good to leave Too Bad to Stay and it erodes trust in a marriage over the long term because it means that one spouse's voice/concerns/complaints is not being heard. This appears to be what is happening to the OP. If the OP decides to do the same thing, it will just descend into complete breakdown but then her needs are not being met. It is a difficult scenario unless she is willing to give him a wake up call in doing a full 180, no sex, no nothing.....two can play that game.


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## stefanjames (Jul 15, 2019)

When you guys have an argument, is it basically always when he is in the wrong? Do you have arguments where you are in the wrong?


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

Casual Observer said:


> In discussions with my wife, things can go bad in a hurry because she speaks too quickly (without fully considering what she's saying and the consequences), while I'll take a more deliberate approach to a question from her, taking my time to think about the answer before talking. *There might be a 15 second pause before I speak.* Doesn't seem like much, but she thinks it means I don't want to answer the question. It's really strange. I think it's important to articulate something as well as possible, and present it in a way that the other person might be receptive to. She'd rather be a dragon, burning anything that she disagrees with.
> 
> What I do wouldn't fit any definition of stonewalling, but maybe it could lead to that if someone got frustrated enough? Maybe that's how it starts?


What I do in this situation is say "I'm not ignoring you, I'm thinking about your question." as soon as I realize I don't have a quick answer. It's easy to freeze up and not be able to organize your thoughts to answer when the pressure is on too.


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

WorkingWife said:


> What I do in this situation is say "I'm not ignoring you, I'm thinking about your question." as soon as I realize I don't have a quick answer. It's easy to freeze up and not be able to organize your thoughts to answer when the pressure is on too.


This is why we argue via text. Forces you to read every word they say. Then you have to consider their words while responding. Allows for a lot of time to gather thoughts and also keeps you from saying regrettable things in the heat of the moment.


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## aquarius1 (May 10, 2019)

WorkingWife said:


> To the no response and then "I heard you" I think I would walk over, get right in front of him, make eye contact and ask follow up questions. What's your honest opinion on that? Do you agree with my point of view or do you just want me to leave you alone about this? Will you try XYZ in the future?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That comment was more directed at the type of criticism that RubyRing described earlier on in the thread. The put me down, criticize everything I do criticism. The type of criticism that attempts to wound, deeply and personally. We’ve all experienced it in our lives, and that’s the type that would be met with a hearty FU. My H has never been that way. 
I believe one of your earlier posts nailed it. It’s a woman’s inherent advantage with words, combined with the fact that English was not his primary working language when we first met.


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## aquarius1 (May 10, 2019)

WorkingWife said:


> Ah, so he's not giving you the silent treatment or the cold shoulder, he's just acting like there is no disagreement, everything is fine. Nothing to see here folks, move along.
> 
> What does he say/do if/when you bring the subject up again?
> Have you told him "This is important to me, it's bothering me and I can't move on until we have a civilized discussion about it."
> ...


I’ve learned over the years and through IC to put the convo on hold until cooler heads prevailed. I like the way you phrase it “I’m too emotional “ (which is true for me) and intend to use that going forward. I also agree with your point about language skills. I do tend to interrupt, something that I have committed to improving on.


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## aquarius1 (May 10, 2019)

TheDudeLebowski said:


> The more and more I read the more I think he's just scared of you. Being a "strong woman" is often a false description.
> 
> When you guys have an argument, is it basically always when he is in the wrong? Do you have arguments where you are in the wrong?


While your points are painful to read (nobody likes to think that they are scaring someone) they are valid. I have grown a LOT over the years, with IC, MC and just plain aging. But damage done lingers. Is my H scared of me? Never. If you knew him you would understand why. 
Oh I’m in the wrong just as often as he is. If I think about it long enough I can usually figure out why I’m wrong. I WOULD like his insight on how it impacts him, and how he would like things to be different. I can assume these things and try, but everyone has different needs and I would like the opportunity to meet his needs. But that’s where the silence doesn’t help.


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## aquarius1 (May 10, 2019)

aine said:


> Some people use this tactic as a way of taking a topic off the table for discussion. This is discussed in the book Too Good to leave Too Bad to Stay and it erodes trust in a marriage over the long term because it means that one spouse's voice/concerns/complaints is not being heard. This appears to be what is happening to the OP. If the OP decides to do the same thing, it will just descend into complete breakdown but then her needs are not being met. It is a difficult scenario unless she is willing to give him a wake up call in doing a full 180, no sex, no nothing.....two can play that game.


I fully agree with your points. I intend to read this book, I had never heard of it. It makes sense that trust would be eroded but I never made the connection. And yes, that’s how I have felt, that I’m not being heard. The issues are not being addressed, neither mine nor his. 
I’ve tried 180 (or my version of it since I’ve only just learned of it). It just didn’t help. Nothing changed and things got much worse. It went on for months with no sex and no communication. Until finally I insisted on MC. Then the cycle repeats.
I believe that both of us have had damaging behaviours. Me with saying too much, and he with saying too little.


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## aquarius1 (May 10, 2019)

TheDudeLebowski said:


> This is why we argue via text. Forces you to read every word they say. Then you have to consider their words while responding. Allows for a lot of time to gather thoughts and also keeps you from saying regrettable things in the heat of the moment.


Thank goodness for texting. It helps considerably. My issue has always been that regardless of the method of communication, I always reach out first, after hours or days. It makes me feel that I am the only one interested in resolving the issue. While I understand that he is hurt, so am I. And i would appreciate it if sometimes he made the first overtures.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

Why do people stonewall? Yes, I think it's usually because they are afraid. But not necessarily *of you*. 

You said you follow the literature on marriage. The therapy that's designed for this sort of thing is Emotionally Focussed Couples Therapy (EFT) by Sue Johnson. You said a previous MC "advised" him to circle back around to topics, I think, but "advice" doesn't get to the emotional underpinning of the problem. If you could get the two of you into EFT it might help.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Y'all need to establish ground rules for arguments. The MC can help the two of you to craft an agreement you can both live with. When I married, a popular sentiment was to never go to bed mad. That meant that the couple had to come to an agreement before bedtime. Even if the agreement was to drop the subject 'til there was a more convenient time to resolve the issue. 

Your husband saying he doesn't know what to say may be true - but, for days? That's ridiculous. You can come up with some phrases that he can use to shut down the badgering (yours) until he gets his thoughts in order. But, he needs to know that the issue will be addressed within suchandsuch time-frame. Going silent and pretending that everything is fine is his way of sweeping the issue under the rug. And, remember to turn down the volume knob. If you're yelling, he can't hear you for all the noise.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

IMO, people stonewall or go all passive agressive because either they have the upper hand ie, they don't have to care how you may react to it; or they just don't care.

My mother would do the silent treatment on me. I don't forgive her. And before either of us die (I have stage IV breast cancer), I plan to give her a letter (via other family members, that's the only way she will listen to me) outlining this behavior.

I had a boyfriend who would do that to me as well. now I am confident to know that when one resorts to this sort of behavior it's time to escalate upwards. I am very thankful that my husband does not do these things.

How does one break the silence? Either you admit that you are wrong or you dnce around the silent treatment giver trying ti give that person a way to save face. If your partner gives the silent treatment often, one needs to ask is this relationship worth saving?


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## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

My wife does this sometimes. I just do it back to her. Cuz that’s how I roll.


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

aquarius1 said:


> I fully agree with your points. I intend to read this book, I had never heard of it. It makes sense that trust would be eroded but I never made the connection. *And yes, that’s how I have felt, that I’m not being heard*. The issues are not being addressed, neither mine nor his.
> I’ve tried 180 (or my version of it since I’ve only just learned of it). It just didn’t help. Nothing changed and things got much worse. It went on for months with no sex and no communication. Until finally I insisted on MC. Then the cycle repeats.
> I believe that both of us have had damaging behaviours. Me with saying too much, and he with saying too little.


OMG, I *hate* that feeling. My guy will say that I "keep making my point" but I'm ready to tear my hair out because there is *nothing *in his reaction/words that indicate he actually *understands* what my point is. So I keep saying it and rewording it. I'm not trying to make him do anything or have me be right and him be wrong, I just want to feel that he *understands* what I'm saying, even if he doesn't agree with it.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

The silent treatment (or stonewalling, whatever) is a form of abuse. It is intended as a control tactic. This has no place in a marriage or relationship, 100% unacceptable. My ex used to do this to me. He would blow something meaningless out of proportion, go off on me, then not speak to me for days. Then once he decided I had been punished long enough, he just randomly started talking again, just like your H does, without a single apology ever for his behavior. EVER. Or any mention of what set him off so that there could be some kind of resolution. When it first started happening, it used to upset me... I used to scurry around trying to bring him out of it, walking on eggshells. Then eventually figured out EFF THIS. I stopped trying to get him to talk to me and would just ignore his existence. It didnt really change anything but made it easier on me to deal with. Also I figure out this was a pattern, and the times in between these episodes got shorter and shorter over the few years we were together, so it was happening more often. 

Tell him next time is the last. And mean it. Life is too short for this babyfied crap.


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## aquarius1 (May 10, 2019)

Laurentium said:


> Why do people stonewall? Yes, I think it's usually because they are afraid. But not necessarily *of you*.
> 
> You said you follow the literature on marriage. The therapy that's designed for this sort of thing is Emotionally Focussed Couples Therapy (EFT) by Sue Johnson. You said a previous MC "advised" him to circle back around to topics, I think, but "advice" doesn't get to the emotional underpinning of the problem. If you could get the two of you into EFT it might help.


Thanks for the idea. Like many people here we have had our share of bad MCs so it’s good to know what one is looking for.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

https://thoughtcatalog.com/shahida-...nt-when-the-narcissists-silence-is-deafening/


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## Violet28 (Oct 4, 2018)

aquarius1 said:


> Thanks blazer. I guess i was looking for more of the why.


He does it because he can. We teach people how to treat us and he has learned that he can get away with this because you will let him. If this has gone on for months at a time, you have a serious issue. He doesn't believe you will do anything to change the status quo of the marriage because you have let it continue for so long. He needs a serious wake up call. Are you actually willing to leave him over this and change the pattern? To actually wait him out and not be the peacemaker?


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Violet28 said:


> He does it because he can. *We teach people how to treat us and he has learned that he can get away with this because you will let him.* If this has gone on for months at a time, you have a serious issue. He doesn't believe you will do anything to change the status quo of the marriage because you have let it continue for so long. He needs a serious wake up call. Are you actually willing to leave him over this and change the pattern? To actually wait him out and not be the peacemaker?



Do you have any suggestions as to what she can do now ....... or at least what she should have done when she first started noticing it?


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## leon2100 (May 13, 2015)

because they are allow to.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

NextTimeAround said:


> Do you have any suggestions as to what she can do now ....... or at least what she should have done when she first started noticing it?


When he starts talking again and has stopped ignoring you then this is the time to act. 
Explain calmly and without sarcasm that when he treats you like this you lose some of your love for him. Then explain that love isn’t a bottomless pit, if you lose enough love for him then eventually you will wonder why you ever stayed long enough to get to this point. 
Then stop talking and listen.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

NextTimeAround said:


> Do you have any suggestions as to what she can do now ....... or at least what she should have done when she first started noticing it?


This is a great question. I can't think of anything more disheartening than telling someone who is hurting "It's your fault you're hurting and your fault he's like this." I mean really

OP, I would, without emotion and very briefly, tell him one more time that you do not like this, and why you do not like it. Don't discuss it, just tell him. And tell him you will not be manopulated again.

Next time he stonewalls and will not reach out, I would have an internal timetable. When that internal clock runs out, just pack a bag and tell him, "I will not share a home with someone who is stonewalling me. You know how to reach me when you are ready to resolve X." Go to a friend's or a hotel or something. No emotion, no arguing. Just action.


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## Violet28 (Oct 4, 2018)

NextTimeAround said:


> Do you have any suggestions as to what she can do now ....... or at least what she should have done when she first started noticing it?


I would prepare him for the change and tell him that marriage is a partnership that requires communication. She is no longer going to fill that role for both of them and if there is no communication, there is no partnership and there is no point in being married to someone if they are just going to live like roommates and lead separate lives. It is important to communicate this calmly and if she still loves him, to tell him that, but that she has needs that aren't being met and is no longer willing to give up her needs for the sake of peace or let him avoid something because it is uncomfortable for him. He needs to understand that this is not a threat, it is a need, and for the conversation to be non aggressive. She needs a calm, flat affect, very serious. Do not let him distract you or to change the subject and if he starts to, call him out on it. Do not raise your voice or take a long time to tell him this. She should be the one to end the conversation first, not him. It does not need to be a long conversation, just an impactful one.

Now, she has to follow through with it and not give in because she's lonely or uncomfortable with the no talking. He has been trained to know that she will eventually give in over the last thirty years. She might even need to leave him in order for it to sink in that things have to change. She has to find out if she is willing to lose the relationship and if not, then accept that this is the way he is and that she will always be giving up her needs for his.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

arbitrator said:


> *It's been my experience that "stonewalling" chiefly occurs out of one's(1) outright fear, (2) their not knowing how to do something correctly and their inability to admit it, and (3) trying to cover up a lie, a blatant mistruth, or something so egregiously stupid that they are simply downright ashamed of it!*


All correct items mentioned by @arbitrator, and I'd add another which is more basic I suppose.

Just don't want to talk about it.

Aggravated but will get over "it", and don't want to talk.

But never ever sleep in different bedrooms. And at least DW and I, take "breaks from being mad" if one or both are aggravated, being "mad" never rules the relationship if you will.

I/we can fool around, even if we're working some issue out, because to us speed bumps aren't the road or journey, the journey is the constant. 

To be honest I'm always the one to say "c'mon Sweetie let's fool around" but she rolls with it.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

aquarius1 said:


> I’m all for this. Tried it. Miserable impasses with no sex for months. He slept in a separate bedroom He just doesn’t get it. We talked divorce for a while. Tried again. It’s been great for 8 months *as long as I refuse to be bothered by this issue*. He can’t or won’t change. Not sure which.


The answer: Refuse to be bothered by this issue. He sure.....is not.

You claim he stonewalls you, then you clam up tight until you explode.

Note: I do not support him in this behavior.

I see this as:

A dominance thing.
A control thing.
A Mars/Venus thing.

He is tired of fighting. If he believes he is in the right, then no apologetic peep/piss from him.
He has given up arguing with you. You sound typically emotional, he is more just arrogantly stubborn.
He thinks if he bends, just once, you will be encouraged to nail him on 'things' that bother you.
He has fallen out of love.

Both of you are in limbo. He feels it too. He is not proactive in the relationship. *He may be depressed.*


A loving husband does not act this way. He likely is just playing along, is too stubborn to change, and is too lazy to end the marriage.

He may be biding his time. Joe Biden his time.
For what?

Kids being grown up, out of the house, completed their college....dunno.
He has a plan, watch for it. See where he puts his money.

Does he talk about the future? This is important.


KB-

Complacency is an option.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

aquarius1 said:


> the one thing he does that drives me bananas is stonewalling when we argue. He can go at it for days, not say a thing, then get up one morning, make coffee and pretend like nothing happened.


Serious question: if he was here instead of you, telling his tale of woe about his unhappy marriage, what do you think he'd say? If you want to solve things, it helps a lot to imagine the other person's point of view *even if you don't agree with it.* (This is advanced mental gymnastics).


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

Been there, was married 24 years and ex just did not want to talk. If I did something that upset him he ignored me. Talking was like the forbidden. For me taling was essential. Men and women are so completely opposite. If you truly love this man find a way to make it work. This whole dating scene today is not cool and being alone after a long term marriage (even if they are unavailable) is not easy.


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

Been there, was married 24 years and ex just did not want to talk. If I did something that upset him he ignored me. Talking was like the forbidden. For me talking was essential. Men and women are so completely opposite. If you truly love this man find a way to make it work. This whole dating scene today is not cool and being alone after a long term marriage (even if they are unavailable) is not easy.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Dating sucks but being in a relationship that makes you feel alone is 100 times worse than actually being on your own!



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## aquarius1 (May 10, 2019)

Sorry for the delayed response folks. Between work and writing exams it’s been very busy. This last page of discussion has yielded the most helpful insight so far. 
Thank you 3x I read the article you linked. I have read a lot of Gottman predictive work about stonewalling. It describes us to a T. Silence, followed by fear on my part and then....wait for it, fear turns to anger and my behaviour becomes an attempt to elicit ANY emotional reaction. Wash,rinse, repeat. And, oh look. Nothing gets solved.
Violet and Leon you are right. The behaviour continues because it is allowed to. Because I ALLOW IT. guilty as charged. In early years I suffered depression and struggled to treat it, and then kids came along and I became enmeshed in that and work. Exhaustion prevented my even considering leaving. 
That scenario has since changed. 
With my depression well under control for 10 years now, my increased income as I rose through the company, my children about to launch, being over 50 ( believe me, it’s a thing), a recent health scare and with a wake up call from many helpful people here it is time for me to put ME first. Have I been perfect? NO. I’ve f*d up a lot. Everyone has. But I’ve been willing to recognize my faults, get help and work at being a better person. That’s whats important. Going forward, in whatever time I have left, I want more, better.
Many times I have felt so very, very lonely in my marriage, I thought it better to be alone. But being alone scared me. It doesn’t anymore, and that’s what’s changed.

Sun, I am always so impressed with your laser insight. He has a family history of depression, it’s been a topic of convo for many years. But as I know myself, people will not get help until they are ready. And yes, I have begun the process of looking more closely, the details of which I won’t go into here. No red flags yet, but some things have triggered questions that I will be investigating further. Quietly and with patience. I’m here on this forum for a reason. To get answers and advice.
Laurentium I thank you for your alternate view. While I had reached that viewpoint myself a few years ago, it’s always good to be reminded that I’m not the only one hurting.
My final thoughts on this after reading everyone’s great perspectives and advice is this: 
I am worth more. More than this.
It’s time for me to verbalize that, without emotion. My line in the sand. I’m working on the wording but it will happen. Because I know that I simply can no longer go on like this. My dignity demands it. And I’m getting too old for this sh*t. Lol.
All the while I am keeping my eyes and ears open for clues.
I’m willing to work on this relationship, but not on my own. I’ve spent enough time on it already. And I ain’t getting any younger.
You guys rock.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Good for you! I hope you keep posting and sharing your progress.


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## hptessla (Jun 4, 2019)

aquarius1 said:


> Actually, contempt used to be a big one too. Suddenly when I turned over 50 I realized that I was "dehumanizing" my partner with this approach. So I tried to change my viewpoint.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You should watch/read some of George Simon's views on the passive aggressive approach. He does not buy into the fact that it is coming from childhood hurts/inadequacies. His approach is that it is about winning and it works for them. He also advocates a character based approach, citing in his work and in studies, shame works and actions changed begin to affect outlook. Very interesting stuff. Very common approach until the Baby Boomers came along really.


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

hptessla said:


> You should watch/read some of George Simon's views on the passive aggressive approach. He does not buy into the fact that it is coming from childhood hurts/inadequacies. His approach is that it is about winning and it works for them. He also advocates a character based approach, citing in his work and in studies, shame works and actions changed begin to affect outlook. Very interesting stuff. Very common approach until the Baby Boomers came along really.


Passive aggressive people always win. Either they win by getting the other person to concede, or they win the prise of watching their self fulfilling prophecies come to fruition.


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

Silence is a form of control, it is a way of telling someone that they are not important and getting the upper hand. People who do this intentionally are manipulative and passive-aggressive, their communication is poor and it is about them and what they want from you. you will pay is their thought. They feel you have hurt them in some way so they feel you deserve to be ignored. It does not occur to them that maybe this is a situation that deserves sitting and talking about. They want you at their mercy begging for forgiveness, it gives them satisfaction in a weird sick sense.


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

AVR1962 said:


> Silence is a form of control, it is a way of telling someone that they are not important and getting the upper hand. People who do this intentionally are manipulative and passive-aggressive, their communication is poor and it is about them and what they want from you. you will pay is their thought. They feel you have hurt them in some way so they feel you deserve to be ignored. It does not occur to them that maybe this is a situation that deserves sitting and talking about. They want you at their mercy begging for forgiveness, it gives them satisfaction in a weird sick sense.


I agree mostly. Just to play devil's avocate, sometimes silence is due to self awareness of their choice of words used to hurt when they themselves are hurting. Some people need a day to cool off and run things through their heads before they have the ability to discuss an issue in a productive manner. A day of silence to cool off and reflect vs verbal daggers thrown at their loved ones in the heat of the moment. I'll take the silence personally.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

TheDudeLebowski said:


> I agree mostly. Just to play devil's avocate, sometimes silence is due to self awareness of their choice of words used to hurt when they themselves are hurting. Some people need a day to cool off and run things through their heads before they have the ability to discuss an issue in a productive manner. A day of silence to cool off and reflect vs verbal daggers thrown at their loved ones in the heat of the moment. I'll take the silence personally.


If this is what someone needs, then they should have enough respect for their partner to just tell them. All it should take is, hey I need to get my mind wrapped around this issue, I really need for us to revisit this tomorrow when I am in a better frame of mind to discuss it. Clamming up like an angry three year old isnt the way to resolve a grown up dispute.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Passive aggressive persons don't alway win. 
Even if they win they pay a price, missing out on the benefits in their lives.

They sometimes are left behind to stew in their own sauce.


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

3Xnocharm said:


> If this is what someone needs, then they should have enough respect for their partner to just tell them. All it should take is, hey I need to get my mind wrapped around this issue, I really need for us to revisit this tomorrow when I am in a better frame of mind to discuss it. Clamming up like an angry three year old isnt the way to resolve a grown up dispute.


Agreed. Also, the other partner needs to respect this. The "no, we need to talk about it now!" Approach is equally disrespectful. Like an angry 3 year old stomping about until they get their way. :wink2:


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Passive aggressive persons don't alway win.
> Even if they win they pay a price, missing out on the benefits in their lives.
> 
> They sometimes are left behind to stew in their own sauce.


Winning at the cost of your own happiness is what a self fulfilling prophecy is. They win, but as you pointed out, it's not a win anyone wants. Its really a loss, but to the person doing it, it feels like they were right all along about whatever. That's what I mean by they always win.  All of us know that's not a winning lifestyle.


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## aquarius1 (May 10, 2019)

We both go at it wrong. I ramp up very easily, and want to solve things NOW. I've realized that it's unrealistic to expect that, and cooling off helps keep my mouth in check. I used to say some hurtful things when angry and I'm tired of being that person. That's why I got IC.

I'm not sure what his reasoning is. He claims its because he's hurting and just doesn't know what to say. But I just can't see not knowing what to say for a couple of days. Seems unnecessary and damaging for it to go on that long. And it is.

Is it passive aggressive? I'm not sure. He's realizing now that this is not a "winning" strategy. So he has choice of two. Learn and grow. Or go.
As some have said I have been peacemaker for too long. Albeit, angry, frustrated peacemaker. Its gone on because I have let it, regardless of the motive.

And now I am holding myself and my H accountable. Coz I'm getting too bleeping old for this sh*t.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

aquarius1 said:


> We both go at it wrong. I ramp up very easily, and want to solve things NOW. I've realized that it's unrealistic to expect that, and cooling off helps keep my mouth in check. I used to say some hurtful things when angry and I'm tired of being that person. That's why I got IC.
> 
> I'm not sure what his reasoning is. He claims its because he's hurting and just doesn't know what to say. But I just can't see not knowing what to say for a couple of days. Seems unnecessary and damaging for it to go on that long. And it is.
> 
> ...


And you're right.

Summary: the non-harmful balance is the objective. 

Not everything is immediately "solvable", just isn't.

Every single disagreement shouldn't take hours or days to solve. If all serious conversations go that way, that's avoidance. Just is. 

Some topics require more info or reflection to prevent a half baked solution, they just do.

All this said - normal discourse and living, talking about other topics not in disagreement should be continued, one problem shouldn't stop all interactions. Certainly not sexual relations. 

That's like someone saying just because one sprinkler head is broken the whole yard has to go without water until that one head is fixed. Ridiculous. 

Balance is key. 

Perhaps encourage each other to be mad if want to about the "one thing" and reminding each other it's ok to be nice on everything else while a solution forms. 

Happier frames of minds reach better solutions in marriages.


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## aquarius1 (May 10, 2019)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> And you're right.
> 
> Summary: the non-harmful balance is the objective.
> 
> ...


We are just both very sad that it took 25 years, a terrible sex life and near divorce to reach this conclusion. If I had it to do over again...


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

TheDudeLebowski said:


> I agree mostly. Just to play devil's avocate, sometimes silence is due to self awareness of their choice of words used to hurt when they themselves are hurting. Some people need a day to cool off and run things through their heads before they have the ability to discuss an issue in a productive manner. A day of silence to cool off and reflect vs verbal daggers thrown at their loved ones in the heat of the moment. I'll take the silence personally.


And in this situation I would hope the person is mature enough to say, "I need a little bit of time to think this through," or "Let me have a day to process this," or "I don'tr want to regret anything that might come out of my mouth right now, let's talk about this later." If this isn't being said then it does appear as control. My ex and my mother were VERY good at this. As a receiver of such treatment you eventually learn they have some serious issues and no longer let their issues get to you.


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## Why Bother (Apr 26, 2019)

I totally disagree with it being a form of abuse it isnt for all that stone wall or go silent. I shut down. My feelings opinions concerns nothing is ever validated. He doesn't feel there is an issue unless it directly effects him. I can mention something and he starts screaming and yelling I shut down. After multiple times of hearing I am not talking about this. When you are shut out of discussing or being able to say how you feel Then I stone wall as it is put. It isnt a means of control it is a means of protection.

What I say was not accurate, what I seen was not accurate his opinion was the only one that mattered mine didn't.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Why Bother said:


> I totally disagree with it being a form of abuse it isnt for all that stone wall or go silent. I shut down. My feelings opinions concerns nothing is ever validated. He doesn't feel there is an issue unless it directly effects him. I can mention something and he starts screaming and yelling I shut down. After multiple times of hearing I am not talking about this. When you are shut out of discussing or being able to say how you feel Then I stone wall as it is put. It isnt a means of control it is a means of protection.
> 
> What I say was not accurate, what I seen was not accurate his opinion was the only one that mattered mine didn't.


You are shutting down BECAUSE you are being abused! Which is awful that you are tolerating this, but the stonewalling being in question here is a different animal from what you are dealing with. Why do you put up with that??


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## Tilted 1 (Jul 23, 2019)

. He doesn't criticize me, mainly because I would honestly tell him to F off. I grew up in a house with strong women, and I am surrounded by them at work. It's not funny how such a seemingly innocent thing like silence can.

^This... Ok could it be the reason for the stonewalling from your SO?


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## Tilted 1 (Jul 23, 2019)

. While he is silent, I'm the mouthpiece. I too came from an openly argumentative family, its how we work things out. But my words can be damaging, to the point where I went to anger management classes 20 years ago. Is this one of the reasons maybe?


I am just getting some of your actions you may want to consider for his stonewalling.


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## aquarius1 (May 10, 2019)

Tilted 1 said:


> . While he is silent, I'm the mouthpiece. I too came from an openly argumentative family, its how we work things out. But my words can be damaging, to the point where I went to anger management classes 20 years ago. Is this one of the reasons maybe?
> 
> 
> I am just getting some of your actions you may want to consider for his stonewalling.


A point that I considered 20 years ago and as I said I went for anger management, an entire course.
That was 20 years ago. I guess my point would be if the stonewalling is from something I did 20 years ago and have since worked through, I don’t stand much chance going forward. Perhaps then he should have left if he couldn’t move forward from it.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

aquarius1 said:


> A point that I considered 20 years ago and as I said I went for anger management, an entire course.
> That was 20 years ago. I guess my point would be if the stonewalling is from something I did 20 years ago and have since worked through, I don’t stand much chance going forward. Perhaps then he should have left if he couldn’t move forward from it.


I've lived with a stonewalling wife for nearly 35 years... I was 22... married nearly 30. It's been a nightmare. I come from a highly argumentative family (I'm from Southern Europe). This is how we sort things out. In our entire married life, we might have had 3 rows, followed by stonewalling for days and days. Yes, I used to get angry because I couldn't get through her. This damaged our marriage immensely. Of course I was always the first to make peace, because I could not stand it. If I left it, we wouldn't talk and our sex life would die. At the end I stopped criticising or trying to argue, since I wouldn't get nowhere... 

We've had so many communication problems that we are now separating, as you know... it's one of the worst treatment I've ever experienced. The fact you went to anger management is a classic. You think it's your fault and your partner makes you believe you have committed some heinous crime, because they refuse to talk to you... but believe me, it's their issue...


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

aquarius1 said:


> Not by him. He wants to move on. Me, I need to work it out, understand it. Learn from it. MC advised him he has to circle back around to the issue, but he’d rather just forget it.


I’m a big believer in telling a person how something makes me feel. So, that’s my advice to you: tell him how much it hurts you, how it leaves you feeling alone and unloved. Chances are good that he doesn’t understand the full impact of his actions, and telling him might hammer that home. If you tell him this, and he keeps doing it, that will tell you either how much he heard you, how much he understands, and how much he cares about you and your marriage. Someone who cares will hear you out and try their darnedest to work with you to change things around. Someone who doesn’t care will get defensive, play the blame game, and just generally make you feel worse about a situation.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

"As for guys in general, keep in mind that women usually have better language skills than men. As a general rule, we can typically out maneuver them in a verbal battle, all other things being equal. This may be one reason a guy checks out -- he feels out matched, that you'll get your point across and he won't get his across, and it's better to just forfeit than put himself through the ordeal."

A poster early in the thread said the above. This is how I feel in my relationship. I feel there is no point in discussing the issue, because I am never heard. If I say something that to me makes sense and explains my opinion, then I am met with something that happened 20 years ago, that she believes proves her point. I am constantly being 'one upped' in the conversation and it has just become easier to not participate.

The other thing that I keep thinking about regarding this issue is based on my personal experience. It might not be the case in this instance, but I am not sure as the OP hasn't really given any real example of the issues causing the stonewalling .... In my experience, my wife will 'create' issues in order to cause a disagreement. The smallest thing, like a word I used, or the way I cleaned the counter, or how I had to ask the same question twice, etc. etc. etc. will cause a huge disagreement. Lately, I will refuse to get caught up in arguments about things that shouldn't cause an argument. She thinks I am 'stonewalling' because I distance myself from her. I am trying to avoid a huge fight over something trivial.


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

In Absentia said:


> I've lived with a stonewalling wife for nearly 35 years... I was 22... married nearly 30. It's been a nightmare. I come from a highly argumentative family (I'm from Southern Europe). This is how we sort things out. In our entire married life, we might have had 3 rows, followed by stonewalling for days and days. Yes, I used to get angry because I couldn't get through her. This damaged our marriage immensely. Of course I was always the first to make peace, because I could not stand it. If I left it, we wouldn't talk and our sex life would die. At the end I stopped *criticising or trying to argue*, since I wouldn't get nowhere...
> 
> We've had so many communication problems that we are now separating, as you know... it's one of the worst treatment I've ever experienced. The fact you went to anger management is a classic. You think it's your fault and your partner makes you believe you have committed some heinous crime, because they refuse to talk to you... but believe me, it's their issue...


I hope you dont blame her for all the communication issues. 

People who are argumentative to a fault always tell everyone that they are "strong and passionate" when often they are just *******s.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

TheDudeLebowski said:


> I hope you dont blame her for all the communication issues.
> 
> People who are argumentative to a fault always tell everyone that they are "strong and passionate" when often they are just *******s.


I'm not argumentative... I like to discuss things. I don't look for an argument. If I communicate and she doesn't, I don't think I am the one to blame... :wink2:


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

TheDudeLebowski said:


> This is why we argue via text. Forces you to read every word they say. Then you have to consider their words while responding. Allows for a lot of time to gather thoughts and also keeps you from saying regrettable things in the heat of the moment.


This can be dangerous too though because with texting, there’s no tone. From personal experience, at times during a texting argument/discussion, my messages have been taken the wrong way because the person on the receiving end can’t gauge my tone, and they usually gauge it wrong, and then I need to backpedal to explain things further. So, when arguing or even just having a deep discussion over text, please be careful. With my current beau, if something needs to be said that has even a small possibility of being taken the wrong way, I pick up the phone and call him instead of texting.


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Passive aggressive persons don't alway win.
> Even if they win they pay a price, missing out on the benefits in their lives.
> 
> They sometimes are left behind to stew in their own sauce.


They may “win” the argument at the time, but in their own heads and hearts, they know that they did so in a very underhanded, hurtful way. Or, maybe they don’t know; maybe they just don’t care.


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

In Absentia said:


> I'm not argumentative... I like to discuss things. I don't look for an argument. If I communicate and she doesn't, I don't think I am the one to blame... :wink2:


The wording that I bolded and responded to was questionable. That clears it up.

I will add on though, that every management and leadership course talks about communicating where others can hear you and that individuals don't all hear things the same way so you have to give the same messages in different forms and packages that reach every individual. IME poor communication is never one sided. Its a failure from both parties involved.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

SadSamIAm said:


> In my experience, my wife will 'create' issues in order to cause a disagreement. The smallest thing, like a word I used, or the way I cleaned the counter, or how I had to ask the same question twice, etc. etc. etc. will cause a huge disagreement. Lately, I will refuse to get caught up in arguments about things that shouldn't cause an argument. She thinks I am 'stonewalling' because I distance myself from her. I am trying to avoid a huge fight over something trivial.


This is what my XH used to do to me. He would get bent out of shape off the rails over something stupid like this, while I stand there with my mouth hanging open because its so absurd, and he wouldnt talk to me for 3 days. :scratchhead: Once he got done pouting, he would go back to talking without another mention of said offense nor any apology ever.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

TheDudeLebowski said:


> The wording that I bolded and responded to was questionable. That clears it up.


Yes, I get it... I didn't express myself properly... "criticising" and "arguing" in the sense that if I wanted to express my disagreement on something, I couldn't, because she would get personally offended and stonewalled me for days... so, I stopped doing that... better than walking on eggshells all the time... painful way to manage your relationship.


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

Why Bother said:


> I totally disagree with it being a form of abuse it isnt for all that stone wall or go silent. I shut down. My feelings opinions concerns nothing is ever validated. He doesn't feel there is an issue unless it directly effects him. I can mention something and he starts screaming and yelling I shut down. After multiple times of hearing I am not talking about this. When you are shut out of discussing or being able to say how you feel Then I stone wall as it is put. It isnt a means of control it is a means of protection.
> 
> What I say was not accurate, what I seen was not accurate his opinion was the only one that mattered mine didn't.


I get this, and my XH was the same way with having to be right all the time; he discounted my thoughts/feelings pretty much all the time (hence my shutting up/shutting down just to make him stop fighting). It’s one of the many reasons we divorced. I sincerely hope he’s learned that he’s not God’s gift to the Universe, and has taken it down a few notches. @Why Bother, it sounds like your SO is abusive, which explains why you would shut down as a protective mechanism.


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

TheDudeLebowski said:


> Agreed. Also, the other partner needs to respect this. The "no, we need to talk about it now!" Approach is equally disrespectful. Like an angry 3 year old stomping about until they get their way. :wink2:


I completely agree because there is no point in discussing something when both are emotional and one or both can't really articulate their thoughts because they haven't formed them yet.

HOWEVER - my ex would do the stonewalling on a topic and it was NEVER a good time to talk. People would say "talk to your spouse about xyz" and I would think - it's literally NOT POSSIBLE because he simply WILL NOT discuss it. He has a headache, he's tired, he's busy, he makes jokes, he changes the subject, an important game is on TV right now. We'll talk later but there is no later. Ever. He would do ANYTHING except take me seriously. 

I think I got his attention when I divorced him, but I no longer cared.


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

SadSamIAm said:


> ... In my experience, my wife will 'create' issues in order to cause a disagreement. The smallest thing, like a word I used, or the way I cleaned the counter, or how I had to ask the same question twice, etc. etc. etc. will cause a huge disagreement. Lately, I will refuse to get caught up in arguments about things that shouldn't cause an argument. She thinks I am 'stonewalling' because I distance myself from her. I am trying to avoid a huge fight over something trivial.


 @SadSamIAm - I know this is a little off topic plus I'm not familiar with your story, but having read just this blurb made me think of this that might apply to your situation: https://www.marriagebuilders.com/how-to-deal-with-a-quarrelsome-and-nagging-wife.htm


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

3Xnocharm said:


> This is what my XH used to do to me. He would get bent out of shape off the rails over something stupid like this, while I stand there with my mouth hanging open because its so absurd, and he wouldnt talk to me for 3 days. :scratchhead: Once he got done pouting, he would go back to talking without another mention of said offense nor any apology ever.


For me it was different. She would start an absurd argument. I would refuse to participate in said argument. I would try to talk about something else and she would be cold. This lead to nobody talking. After a few days (sometimes weeks) I would eventually give in. At this point, she declares that I was pouting. That I don't communicate.


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## Tilted 1 (Jul 23, 2019)

Why Bother said:


> What I say was not accurate, what I seen was not accurate his opinion was the only one that mattered mine didn't.


Maybe just maybe...... could yours and others who experience this type of treatment be. Who will get the last word of the argument, (literally) is already known and the person just decided not to go down the same beaten path over and over and therefore a choice between the lesser is performed yet again. And could be thought in the stonewallers mind l know how this dance ends.


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

Tilted 1 said:


> Maybe just maybe...... could yours and others who experience this type of treatment be. Who will get the last word of the argument, (literally) is already known and the person just decided not to go down the same beaten path over and over and therefore a choice between the lesser is performed yet again. And could be thought in the stonewallers mind l know how this dance ends.


Maybe, yes. I think sometimes people are protecting themselves, other times they are doing it to hurt others. 

Besides being silent when they other person is just angry and argumentative, or using it to hurt the other person on purpose when their spouse is trying to communicate.

A third option might be that the person who goes silent feels there's nothing they can really say for themselves besides "I messed up, I'm sorry. I'll try to be better" but that's not really satisfactory for the partner who is pushing the issue for a fix. They need MORE! But what else is there to give? They keep pushing and poking and you've really got nothing else to say at that point that hasn't already been said. At this point, you have two options. Engage in anger back towards them, or just go silent and hope their anger goes away. 

Then there are some who bring up the past in every argument. So the silent one doesn't engage even when they might be right in this particular scuffle, because they did something 15 years ago that will surely get brought back up which basically makes any gripe they have invalid. 

There's many reasons people stone wall. Turns out I can only think of one reason that isn't a defense mechanism, and several that are. So it begs the question, who has the issue with communication? The silent one, or the one being stonewalled?


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

Ursula said:


> This can be dangerous too though because with texting, there’s no tone. From personal experience, at times during a texting argument/discussion, my messages have been taken the wrong way because the person on the receiving end can’t gauge my tone, and they usually gauge it wrong, and then I need to backpedal to explain things further. So, when arguing or even just having a deep discussion over text, please be careful. With my current beau, if something needs to be said that has even a small possibility of being taken the wrong way, I pick up the phone and call him instead of texting.


Further explaining isn't a bad thing. There's already a misunderstanding being worked out in an argument. Not to mention I've had people assign their own meaning to my spoken words just the same, and I had to go back and clarify what I meant. It's really no different.


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

TheDudeLebowski said:


> Further explaining isn't a bad thing. There's already a misunderstanding being worked out in an argument. Not to mention I've had people assign their own meaning to my spoken words just the same, and I had to go back and clarify what I meant. It's really no different.


This is true as well. I’m just going by my own experiences in that arguing over text is a bad way to do things. However, if it works for you and your SO, then that’s fantastic, and I’d say to keep doing it. I have much better luck waiting until we’re in-person, or I pick up the phone.


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## Tilted 1 (Jul 23, 2019)

TheDudeLebowski said:


> Tilted 1 said:
> 
> 
> > The silent one, or the one being stonewalled?
> ...


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

Tilted 1 said:


> TheDudeLebowski said:
> 
> 
> > I lean to the "aggressor" is the more offensive of the two. Not knowing when to stop and only has his/her method to be the fulfilled or desire to be accomplished. Self serving and angry is the recipe for disaster.
> ...


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## aquarius1 (May 10, 2019)

Tilted 1 said:


> . He doesn't criticize me, mainly because I would honestly tell him to F off. I grew up in a house with strong women, and I am surrounded by them at work. It's not funny how such a seemingly innocent thing like silence can.
> 
> ^This... Ok could it be the reason for the stonewalling from your SO?


Just wondering if you had read the entire conversation. An earlier post explained that this would have been used in the presence of a soul-crushing, full on critical assault. Something which my H doesn't do


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## aquarius1 (May 10, 2019)

TheDudeLebowski said:


> Tilted 1 said:
> 
> 
> > I tend to agree. Again, the self described "strong" people are generally just jerks most of the time. Strength comes in many forms. Being loud, angry, and argumentative isn't one of them, and only these types of people describe it as being strong. Its kind of like how people who call themselves cool are usually anything but cool.
> ...


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

aquarius1 said:


> I read something last week that described my situation to a T.
> When a partner goes silent, it creates a flight or fight reaction in the person being stonewalled. This can often escalate the situation as the person's fear at being shut out turns to terror..and then anger. The person being stonewalled will react emotionally...tears, anger and will project increasing emotion into the situation in an effort to get a reaction, any reaction from the offender.
> Being shut out emotionally is a painfully lonely thing.
> 
> ...


I apologize, this thread sort of got derailed into a general discussion which is what I've been talking about in my last few posts, not really about your situation in particular. The "strong" comment I keep harping on because I know too many of these people and they are all complete jerks. They are anything but strong people. 

As said in the general discussion, I think your husband needs to be man enough to tell you "I need some time to think about this" but he needs to understand that he has to talk at some point. 

I would work from that angle. Approach him with this subject when you are both in good spirits. Just a discussion, not a fight. Tell him how it makes you feel. Then tell him you understand some people need time and even though it goes against how you operate, you will respect the way he goes about handling a situation. However, and this is a big however, HE needs to be the one to come back within 24 hours and give his thoughts, tell his apologies, whatever needs to be discussed, you expect him to initiate the conversation once he's gathered his thoughts. This is where HIS compromise comes in. 

Work at it from the angle that you are extending an olive branch and coming to a level of compromise for him first. Then lay out what you expect in return. What his compromise in this communication mess looks like and find an acceptable one from both of you. Then at the end, cover that this new situation isn't set in stone right off the bat. It can be fluid until you find something that works well enough for both of you but you expect from yourself and from him to try something different because it isn't working and you're becoming apathetic as a result of his silence. 

Listen to Tool - Schism. 

"I know the pieces fit
'Cause I watched them fall away
Mildewed and smouldering
Fundamental differing
Pure intention juxtaposed
Will set two lovers' souls in motion
Disintegrating as it goes
Testing our communication

The light that fueled our fire then
Has burned a hole between us so
We cannot seem to reach an end
Crippling our communication

I know the pieces fit
'Cause I watched them tumble down
No fault, none to blame
It doesn't mean I don't desire
To point the finger, blame the other
Watch the temple topple over
To bring the pieces back together
Rediscover communication

The poetry
That comes from the squaring off between
And the circling is worth it
Finding beauty in the dissonance

There was a time that the pieces fit
But I watched them fall away
Mildewed and smouldering
Strangled by our coveting
I've done the math enough to know
The dangers of our second guessing
Doomed to crumble unless we grow
And strengthen our communication

*Cold silence has... a tendency to
Atrophy any... sense of compassion
Between supposed brothers
Between supposed lovers*"

Repeat that last bit to him. Make him understand.


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## aquarius1 (May 10, 2019)

TheDudeLebowski said:


> I apologize, this thread sort of got derailed into a general discussion which is what I've been talking about in my last few posts, not really about your situation in particular. The "strong" comment I keep harping on because I know too many of these people and they are all complete jerks. They are anything but strong people.
> 
> As said in the general discussion, I think your husband needs to be man enough to tell you "I need some time to think about this" *but he needs to understand that he has to talk at some point.
> *
> ...



These are such helpful points. Thank you. 

In MC he was advised to come back around, but I think he fails to understand why it’s important. I guess he figures if he waits long enough the problem will evaporate.

There are some things here that I have needed to learn. Instead of letting MC dictate that my H should learn to communicate like me, we should both have been taught to respect each other’s style but keep each other informed as you suggested.

Another majorly important thing I learned was that my H really needs me to meet his need for physical connection, just as I need emotional connection. Nobody ever told me this in MC. 

I’ve learned HERE on TAM about the profound effect that a lack of physical connection has especially on the male of the species. People here talk about sexless marriages, lack of sex. What I see now after reading it is that people are starving for intimacy and connection. For many that is expressed physically. Just because that isn’t my language doesn’t mean it’s not important.

Thanks for providing me with a more detailed explanation of what was inside your thinking. :smile2:


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## Tilted 1 (Jul 23, 2019)

aquarius1 said:


> 1. sometimes online we can't always explain fully the situation we are in, or use exactly the right words
> 
> 3. cherry picking comments and snap judgments are unhelpful



It was not my intent to do the above aquarius, l have read the entire post and I do agree to your #1 remark and do not intend to do #3 but only to help you with what you have written for all of us to see and give their take and advise to hopefully shed some light from what you do share. 

Tilted


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## Allsinglesandmarried (Jun 29, 2019)

It will be very crucial for you to know if there is anything he is facing emotionally that that is affecting him which he thinks there's no need to disturb you with it since originally that's not how he behaves when you guys newly met.

*Moderator notification:-*

Sorry, @Allsinglesandmarried But I am going to have to stop you, there.

Offering advice in the way you are doing must be done through the official TAM Vendor programme, which requires verification by TAM.

Please read these Vendor Programme rules https://talkaboutmarriage.com/vendor-deals/383682-vendor-rules.html

You can email them at [email protected]


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## TomNebraska (Jun 14, 2016)

StillSearching said:


> Some people Grey Rock others......but they have a reason to do so.


Yeah, I think if one is being verbally assaulted into submission, shutting up and playing the silent game is one way to defend yourself without engaging the other in the mud, or escalating the fight. 

But of course, to abusive people, defending one's self by staying silent is "Stonewalling." 



CraigBesuden said:


> My wife does this sometimes. I just do it back to her. Cuz that’s how I roll.


I think it very much depends on who is doing it and why. I wrote about the problems in my own marriage here; I didn't mention it in the thread, but after some of our more heated fights, my wife would frequently accuse me of "stonewalling" her, and saying it made her feel vulnerable and scared.

Of course, I'd only go silent after reasonable attempts to discuss something failed, and she was changing her story, screaming at me to "stop yelling at me" (!!!), etc. and the only thing I could think to do next, verbal communications having failed, was to either pick her up and throw her through a window, or withdraw from the "conversation."

*Typical example*: we're planning a trip for my cousin's wedding. Wife knows this. Wife has agreed to it. 

Me: my mom said they would be here on these dates, flight arriving at these times, and suggested we go here for these other dates, or come XYZ day and visit other relatives. (basic trip planning information.)

Wife: (suddenly enraged, pupils dilated, eyes wide) claims I'm "working behind her back" and "keeping secrets" and my mom will never "control" her, etc. etc. _ad nauseum_.

Me: No, I'm not saying I committed to anything, but just giving you the dates, I know we need to discuss and plan ourselves.

Wife: Interrupts, screams something incoherent about abuse, storms off and slams door. 

Me: *Thinking to myself having endured this behavior for years, and dreading planning this trip in the first place*... Communication has failed. I'm done talking. All I can expect is 4-7 days of cold treatment, and a "discussion" in which I'm blamed for her hostile reaction, and if I don't tread carefully and accept responsibility, the same fight will happen all over again. 

- No communication for the next 48 hours in which I keep to myself - 

Wife: You're *stonewalling *me, and it's abusive.​


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## aquarius1 (May 10, 2019)

TomNebraska said:


> Yeah, I think if one is being verbally assaulted into submission, shutting up and playing the silent game is one way to defend yourself without engaging the other in the mud, or escalating the fight.
> 
> But of course, to abusive people, defending one's self by staying silent is "Stonewalling."
> 
> ...


Yea, that's not the kind of situation that I was talking about.

I will say this however, in your case it is YOU that's being abused and your wife is in the WRONG. THat's just bullsh*t and no wonder you shut down


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## TomNebraska (Jun 14, 2016)

aquarius1 said:


> Yea, that's not the kind of situation that I was talking about.
> 
> I will say this however, in your case it is YOU that's being abused and your wife is in the WRONG. THat's just bullsh*t and no wonder you shut down


Well... yeah. 

I was giving an example of why people "stonewall," i.e. withdraw emotionally. True, I wasn't "stonewalling" though, I guess. I was withdrawing from the conflict to protect myself against further verbal abuse.

When my XW would do it, suddenly clamming up without explanation, leaving me wondering, asking what was wrong, it was an abusive technique to control my behavior.


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