# Exploring various interpretations of the BETA MALE - GOOD or all P whipped pathetic?



## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

When I 1st landed on TAM.. many threads on becoming more ALPHA.... but I noticed in a short time there were 2 different interpretations on what  is...or it's ROLE, if any in a man's life...some feel it is ALL BAD, needs killed.. others feel it has it's GOOD ...and is NEEDED for a "well balanced" man... 

The ALL PATHETIC / burn Beta at the stake view here* >>* Who Is the Beta Male? ...she goes on to say..


> *BETA's display* : unstable energy, passive tendencies, childish reasoning, they ignore their responsibilities to grow, fail to master their emotions/ destiny...they are closed to learning, their reasoning skills are stuck in grade school, they see themselves as Victims, they lack patience, integrity and self-control ...they seek to escape, ignore or evade reality, to win approval at any cost, seeks dishonest advantages..


Please notice the Pu**y whipped chart on Suzie's page for further characteristics contrasting the Winning ALPHA vs BETA also with "love women & sex" and "Life views"

WOW.. I am thinking... DAAMMNNNNN ... seems to me her write up is more for those severely caught in "Nice Guy syndrome" covered in Glover's  No More Mr Nice Guy ... but really.. can anyone be THAT BAD!!!

Now here is the funny part (or embarrassing! Husband needs to do this to me -







)...I have went on about HIM, referring to him as "tipped BETA" for as long as I have been posting here..... But I surely wasn't going by that woman's interpretation I'll tell you !!









I was going more by what Athol Kay has written....the author of The Married Man Sex Life Primer  ...he was a member when I arrived ....reading his posts...he has explained how the term has been hi-jacked by "Pick up artist" Blog writers running it into the ground as everything weak, insecure & worthless... he explained how men need a healthy balance of BOTH Alpha and Beta for a woman to be attracted, then feel safe with him...

His explaining the differences like this:



> The *Alpha Traits* are those associated with classic “manly man” strengths. Power, dominance, physical ability, bravery, wealth, cool and confidence. Oh and good genes. These are the things that attract women and turn them on sexually. The Alpha Traits are linked to the dopamine response in women.
> 
> *Alpha *= attraction building = Dopamine = In Love = Excitement





> The *Beta Traits* are those associated with the strengths of being a nice guy / “family man”. Kindness, being a good listener, the ability to help with the children, dependability, thoughtfulness, compassion and patience. These all create a sense of comfort and safety for the woman, and relax her because she feels that if she became pregnant, the Beta Trait male isn’t going to abandon her and the baby.
> 
> *Beta *= comfort building = Oxytocin / Vasopressin = Pair Bond = Calm Enjoyment"


So Alpha Traits create attraction and that “in love” feeling, and Beta Traits create the pair bond and makes her feel relaxed enough to have sex. You need a balance of both Alpha and Beta in a marriage to maximize her desire to have sex with you.....


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

On this thread http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/23220-definitive-alpha-beta-thread.html#post277915... Original poster whipped out this chart he found on the net.. 










Then contrast that with Athol's chart...*which shows BETA HAS GOOD.*.. 










My question is.. which is correct ?? ...Just because I have taken *his* interpretation as the valid & true one & ran with it....I don't know if it is....For all of you who have some understanding of these terms/ their meanings/ their roles .... what is your take on it ??


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

I actually never really used the terms before coming to TAM. I believe the terms are better used in the animal kingdom but have limited use with people. Humans are too complex to sum up so easily.

I first thought Beta was a bad term for a man, defining weakness and passivity. My view on that has changed, but I honestly think using words like weak or passive do a far better job of describing a man.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

I think if a guy was all Alpha, all the time, he would be a jerk. There has to be a balance of both Alpha and Beta.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

I like terms like "good" and "bad".
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

ConanHub said:


> I actually never really used the terms before coming to TAM. I believe the terms are better used in the animal kingdom but have limited use with people. Humans are too complex to sum up so easily.
> 
> *I first thought Beta was a bad term for a man, defining weakness and passivity. My view on that has changed, but I honestly think using words like weak or passive do a far better job of describing a man.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I never used the terms before either...had to look them up & start reading about them...I can't say I was all that impressed with everything I read about Alpha either though.. as just because a man is good looking, has social status and women falling all over him by no means = good character ...without the BETA side to him (If Athol's description is correct).. he would be falling short also.. leaving MUCH to be desired....



> *soccermom2three said* : *I think if a guy was all Alpha, all the time, he would be a jerk*.


Yes.. this is MY interpretation.. exactly... When I hear "ALPHA MALE", I can't help but conjure up arrogance, untouchable, high class, probably looks down on others, I also associate it with Bad boy looks & personality...which means = too many women / Di** which wouldn't always be true!... not sure how to shake this from my brain 100%.... 

Gotta share this wonderful post by Entropy...that left me saying ..."Yeah... that's it!!"... In all the years I've been here..I found this best describes that fine balance needed... taken from this thread ... http://talkaboutmarriage.com/ladies-lounge/65710-alpha-males-tooth-fairy.html











Entropy3000 said:


> Pure Alpha males are not leaders. Pure Beta men are not leaders. It takes a balance of the positive qualities to be a leader. There pure extremes will not occur in nature but it is a sliding scale.
> 
> The confusion is when folks want to view Alpha as superior to Beta and so on as a scale of a quality man and that is not what it is about at all. In fact magnitude comes into play as well. You can have two fairly balanced men with one of them posessing high Alpha and High Beta traits while the other posesses lower Alpha and lower Beta traits. They both have a balance but they are very different people.
> 
> ...



By the way... a chart for us women too... would you agree ...we need both ?


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

LOL! Yeah. Why can't we have some alpha females running around.&#55357;&#56842;

I think whatever traits are good, should be admired and attained.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

LOL! Just looked at your chart! I know women that are an interesting mix of those traits.&#55357;&#56833;
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

Lol, I was just going to post that post of Entropy's. I always thought that was good one.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

ConanHub said:


> *I like terms like "good" and "bad".*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


One thing I have learned here, some don't like this either.... I've been told we shouldn't label Good & Bad....it's always wrong...then I designed a post to what I considered a "Bad Boy"....We use these terms.. so I don't see anything wrong with explaining our reasoning ,what comes to mind.. or some varying degree of it anyhow...

But true..what I call BAD, others might appreciate.. so to each their own.. and my Brand of GOOD may bore someone else...the old fashioned type Gentleman -he doesn't have to open doors or bring me flowers, but a little EDGE is needed ! ~ Yes. 



> *Simplyamorous said*: I understand the attraction to Bad Boys...there is some strong allure to these types...they captivate our senses ...something in us wants to tame them...so he only has eyes for US....suddenly becoming a "one woman" man... though this doesn't always happen.. or it does for just a time, they win our
> 
> 
> 
> ...





> *soccermom2three said*: * Lol, I was just going to post that post of Entropy's. I always thought that was good one*.


 How cool is that... I know.. I gave him one of these ...







(I have it on another thread of mine for safe keeping & easy finding!)


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

I think Entropy nailed it. A good and strong man will have developed desirable alpha and beta traits. I like this conversation. I have never been fully comfortable being labeled alpha.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

ConanHub said:


> I think Entropy nailed it. A good and strong man will have developed desirable alpha and beta traits. I like this conversation. I have never been fully comfortable being labeled alpha.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well that brought a big SMILE to my face.. all my rambling on here all day.. and I feel it's all been in vain.. so if this has helped open your eyes some ConanHub...you made my DAY !


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

I have a lot of interested in human nature and helping each other with self discovery is part of the reason I am here.&#55357;&#56842;
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

When I think of alpha males, I think of playboys and barbarians. Neither looks safe to me.

When I think of beta males, I think of guys who stand in the same spot on the factory floor all day, then come home and watch TV and drink beer all evening. Does not sound appealing, either.

I think men should strive to be mature and responsible. _That_ sounds appealing.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Hey now. Barbarians have uses.&#55357;&#56842;
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> Hey now. Barbarians have uses.��
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

They're just meaningless words to me. I don't label the men I know with 'BETA' and 'ALPHA' or mixtures. What I see above are either behaviours that will contribute to the success of a relationship or to it's demise.

My DH labels himself as a 'nice guy'. People have labelled me as a 'strong woman', but at the end of that day, he's really not always that nice (not a complaint, just an observation), and I was trodden all over by the same person that labelled me 'strong'.

Labels are complete BS.

All this time trying to figure out what the label means is time that could've just been spent addressing the behaviour.

"You're such a BETA dude, why don't you MAN UP", is incredibly unhelpful, especially when people can't even agree on what "BETA" means!


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

I think I'm what's called a sigma. Some alpha traits, some beta, but not following the stereotypes of either.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I agree, breeze. I would like to see men focus on being open and honest, responsible and mature. I think would help them more than trying to be someone's definition of "alpha" or "beta."


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

I think the terms are just easy for a quick summary.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> I think the terms are just easy for a quick summary.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


True, but they sure seem to cause trouble.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

True that.&#55357;&#56842;
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

Married but Happy said:


> I think I'm what's called a sigma. Some alpha traits, some beta, but not following the stereotypes of either.


My first car was a Sigma. It was awesome. Therefore, you must be awesome.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> My question is.. which is correct ?? ...Just because I have taken *his* interpretation as the valid & true one & ran with it....I don't know if it is....For all of you who have some understanding of these terms/ their meanings/ their roles .... what is your take on it ??


My take is some people have selected certain traits and bundled them into arbitrary categories and then proceeded to create theories on how those categories define men as though men only came in two flavors. In fact, you don't have to buy into any of it at all.

Your take is just as valid as anyone else's, including those who created the theories, because these are not "facts" of any kind, just theories and suppositions and assumptions and opinions.


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

Just wanted to add, don't take my opinion as a sign of disapproval of the discussion. I like and value discussions that analyse what behaviours help or hinder a successful marriage, and discussions about 'beta' and 'alpha' actually bring a lot of people together to ponder these questions.

I agree with SA's analysis of a person's behaviour and how it will affect their spouse. Regarding Alpha females traits, I'd prefer a little less about the body and more about the brain (just one more would be good), but other than that, I've agreed with much of what's been said here.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

jld said:


> When I think of alpha males, I think of playboys and barbarians. Neither looks safe to me.
> 
> When I think of beta males, I think of guys who stand in the same spot on the factory floor all day, then come home and watch TV and drink beer all evening. Does not sound appealing, either.


 Oh JLD.... this was just what I was looking for...







.. Funny what a WORD conjures up ...Beta comes off as lazy & boring to you then... 

*When I think of Beta*...I guess I am honing in on a calm demeanor in a man, more sensitive traits or something.. like a doting Family guy who is happy to be with his wife .. not one who is into big muscles & sports, doesn't show Ego... I guess I don't think bad things as I have been speaking my H is BETA for 5 yrs now [email protected]#$....the fact he is a Handy man who wears work boots should lift the Hen pecked wimpy stigma a bit...pushing some ALPHA ....he NEVER whines, is very responsible.. things like that they say are ALPHA.. I guess...

The other day at work, he comes home with this story.... ya see... Husband is not one to bother the Boss.. or anyone unless it is *needed*...so he knocks on the Boss's door.. ..he says.... " Go away , I'm busy"- grouchy old goat (typical).... so Husband listens and tells the other employee calmly .... "well when he's not busy , tell him there is an engine on fire "..... I was like ....."WHAT [email protected]#$ You needed to tell him that! .. interrupt him!!" ...

Then he proceeds to tell me about some other things the boss has done with similar news.. (crazy stories where he didn't blink an eye or even care)...then says "what the hell -does he think I have nothing better to do, that I want to talk to him!!"... I just laughed.. with my mouth hanging open on that. 








I could get treated like that if I am too b****y cutting him off.. so yeah.. Learn SA.. Learn SA... ha ha


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Lol, SA. You know I have a very high opinion of Mr. SA. He is certainly a kind, mature, and responsible man. You and he make a fine couple. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I do think we need to get away from labels, as another poster said, and focus on how we can improve marriages. I think focusing on principles, as described in 7 Habits of Highly Effective People, is very helpful. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

Makes you analyse your own behaviours, but I think we don't have to be perfect alphas and betas all the time.

Right now I'm a mixture of all of it. Being a good 'beta' wife doing the washing while being a bad beta by sitting on a forum and playing a bit of Rift between loads. Dressed nicely and been going to gym like a good alpha while not having jumped DH's bones this morning makes me a bad alpha.

DH is being a good alpha, out doing his Kung Fu this morning, with the kids in tow (good beta), while having avoided doing any of his yard work, bad beta and not been keeping up with his weights training lately, bad alpha.

Am I okay with him being a bad beta/alpha? Yeah, because that's not who he is all the time.

To apply these labels to DH and I personally, it'd be all over the place all of the time, as above.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

*Exploring various interpretations of the BETA MALE - GOOD or all P whipped pa...*

The lists are beyond lol-lable. One has to wonder, for example, how did the all encompassing alpha dude earn his wealth and power without patience...

People who are mysterious and unpredictable are bad news for success also. Do you want your CEO to be some crazy a$$ wacko in the hope he's the next Steve Jobs?

Mysterious, unpredictable, and edgy are words nearly everyone I know uses to describe me. And I'm more beta than a Sony video tape format. 

Maybe I should drive an Audi R8... I'm already in high tech and have cute interns most of the time so.....


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

i am neither beta nor alpha. 

my life is ruled by two questions: does it work? and does this work better?

those two questions dictate my demeanor, my daily activities, my conscious thought, my posture, and my choices. 

i have the ability to be far more patient than either typical betas or alphas, but its always with a goal in mind. sometimes i am the screaming drill sergeant, sometimes im the counselor. 

whatever works.
its a good thing i love people...


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

norajane said:


> *My take is some people have selected certain traits and bundled them into arbitrary categories and then proceeded to create theories on how those categories define men as though men only came in two flavors. * In fact, you don't have to buy into any of it at all.
> 
> Your take is just as valid as anyone else's, including those who created the theories, because these are not "facts" of any kind, just theories and suppositions and assumptions and opinions.


Yep.. I agree. Then those same people write books and put up web sites. Their goal it to make money, that's it.


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

SimplyAmorous said:


> So Alpha Traits create attraction and that “in love” feeling, and Beta Traits create the pair bond and makes her feel relaxed enough to have sex. You need a balance of both Alpha and Beta in a marriage to maximize her desire to have sex with you.....


Yes a balance is needed. I don't buy into the alpha traits are desirable and the beta traits are not. The whole alpha categorization was started to try to understand the initial attraction of women towards men. The dopamine and interest stage. If one is devoid of beta, it probably won't last. If one is devoid of alpha and is a door mat it probably won't last.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Agreed. When Mrs. Conan and I started out, I could have been considered very"alpha". I had to learn to be considerate and tender or our relationship would not have lasted. As far as the initial attraction, what they say is true. Every woman I have ever been with had their clothes off for me in less than 24 hours of meeting me. Mrs. Conan included. I had to up my "beta" game to keep her though.
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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening all
personalities are far too complex to categorize as a single letter (even a Greek letter )

I have a friend who is a very nice, friendly sort of guy. Completely non-violent, I've never seen him angry. He is also highly skilled in his field.(beta?). 

But - he is also an exceptional athlete, competes in international-level sporting events, does endurance challenges (Spartan, Tough Mudder, etc), and once literally saved his girlfriends life by getting her to shore after a serious boating accident (alpha?)

But he has a toddler that he absolutely dotes over and spoils. 

He is not alpha or beta - just a really awesome person.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

meson said:


> Yes a balance is needed. I don't buy into the alpha traits are desirable and the beta traits are not. The whole alpha categorization was started to try to understand the initial attraction of women towards men. The dopamine and interest stage. If one is devoid of beta, it probably won't last. If one is devoid of alpha and is a door mat it probably won't last.


Although I have decided to lay down using these terms for the most part... just because I think it conjures up such different ideas in people's heads.. yet it makes sense to me that both are very much needed, as your post lays out ...

That Beta has much GOOD in it as well (the soft side)... without it the man would have very little romance, would he ever want to serve / please - just listen to his wife ?... or have any humility when it is needed in a relationship....kinda how I see it anyway... 

I guess it's better to just describe a personality, or behavior traits over using these terms though, to avoid the confusion.


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

*Exploring various interpretations of the BETA MALE - GOOD or all P whipped path*



SimplyAmorous said:


> I guess it's better to just describe a personality, or behavior traits over using these terms though, to avoid the confusion.


Most of the time perhaps but the terms have use. They are like directions. A doormat needs to be more alpha etc. As a direction of the spectrum it's useful to tell people which traits the could adopt. 

Beyond that they are not ends in themselves.


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## Idyit (Mar 5, 2013)

One more strip of duct tape before I begin...

Alpha, Beta, Sigma are all just terms to apply to a certain behavior or trait. They give a common language to things that we've all experienced. Without a term to identify a thing we just call it, "you know that thing that he/she does?". Confusion.

For example, I've spent time training athletes. One of the first things I do is install the language. Or put another way, establish the terms, language and way that I will be communicating. With this in place I can get to the work of CLEARLY communicating. It's not that there's magic in the terminology. Correction and building takes place much more quickly when we're speaking the same language. 

The way I've read Kay or others who liberally use the Alpha/Beta terms it seems they're establishing a base of communication for identifying and correcting negative stuff. I don't think they're saying one or the other is better. It's a matter of having a clear way of identifying actions/behaviors and getting to the work of correction. Whatever the case, they are general terms for grouping behaviors. Not absolutes of good or bad.

With that said I can see where misinterpretation and failure to correct can come in. The terminology and teaching that I use has been ripped off by many trainers. Rarely do they get it right and their results show it. Do we likewise get some of the Alpha/Beta debate wrong by misinterpreting or misusing the terms? I think so.

What has helped me is to get educated on where a lot of the Alpha/Beta terminology has come from. (And "Nice Guy") Critically look at myself and see where I might do better. (Correction) In the end, they're terms... not the thing. If we overuse any of the terms they lose meaning and become slogans without information.

Ramble?? If so, sorry.

~ Passio


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

I agree that in the way it's used here, it seems meant as a direction - perhaps to be more assertive, to have your own interests, that kind of thing 'alpha'. It appears to be more the norm to read of this than to be more understanding, patient, compassionate... however in the past there's mention of what makes a good leader and it really is a combination of these traits in both genders.


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