# Unmet Needs !



## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Well the recent activity re 'forgiving', 'forgetting', 'accepting' etc has also given rise to the unassuming but for me personally spectacular little phrase that really shakes my anger bone right to the foundation 

It has so many connotations relating to justification and vindicating...


"unmet needs " ...............Uuuurgh Chrissakes :scratchhead:


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## Ripper (Apr 1, 2014)

Headspin said:


> "unmet needs " ...............Uuuurgh Chrissakes :scratchhead:


This country isn't really meeting my "needs" right now. However, if betrayed my oath and started "consorting" with the Chinese, I get the feeling that my life would end with a short drop and a sudden stop. How terribly unfair!










Nice thread Headspin. Better put all power to forward shields.


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## Turin74 (Apr 11, 2014)

In the same bin with emotional abuse and political correctness...

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


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## workindad (May 7, 2011)

I wonder if waywards consider that their betrayed spouses have unmet needs as well... No that would conflict with the selfish mindset.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

For years, I've had an unmet need to rob a bank, but have somehow made due with what I've earned.


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## Turin74 (Apr 11, 2014)

Well, how many times mental abuse brought up as defense in courts including criminal cases. Way too often imho..And if justice prevails the verdict is 'still guilty'. Same with unmet needs and fidelity 



Forest said:


> For years, I've had an unmet need to rob a bank, but have somehow made due with what I've earned.


 _Posted via *Topify* on Android_


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Headspin said:


> Well the recent activity re 'forgiving', 'forgetting', 'accepting' etc has also given rise to the unassuming but for me personally spectacular little phrase that really shakes my anger bone right to the foundation
> 
> It has so many connotations relating to justification and vindicating...
> 
> ...


Because every human is entitled to be 100% satisfied in every category of life no matter how many lies they have to tell to get what they 'need'... If you need hugs, and aren't getting hugs... you deserve to lie and cheat and steal to get some hugs. People can die from no hugs. Leaving the relationship isn't an option, because one of the needs is the need to have power and control over the spouse. One of the needs that isn't being met is the need to get that rush of 'screw them' as they screw over the spouse listing off the resentments and list of reasons they've built up to justify meeting needs in such a sleazy fashion. One of the unmet needs is the need to flirt and get attention from people that aren't your spouse... 

Meanwhile, folks ignore the betrayed spouses needs.. the MCs want to talk about how the cheater was missing out on needs being met. You weren't holding their hand enough, so they found someone elses hand to hold. Lets ignore that once the cheating person finds another hand to hold, the betrayed spouse now has a ton of needs going unmet. The list grows the longer the affair continues. Those needs aren't important, because they aren't cheating so they must be happy enough. The cheating spouse must be doing a fine job of keeping them happy, that's why they don't cheat. If they weren't happy, they'd cheat because everyone knows that being unhappy is why people cheat. So keep meeting your spouses needs or they'll cheat. Don't worry about your own needs. Worry about them, jump through hoops.. work on yourself so they'll choose you over some person that makes them feel good that day.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good afternoon all
The seriousness of "unmet needs" are depends on what those needs are. If someone is receiving no affection or intimacy from their spouse, then I would consider that a very serious unmet need. 

Are the "unmet needs" something that someone would reasonably assume they would get when they agreed to marry?


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## Hurtin_Still (Oct 3, 2011)

*Re: Re: Unmet Needs !*



russell28 said:


> Because every human is entitled to be 100% satisfied in every category of life no matter how many lies they have to tell to get what they 'need'... If you need hugs, and aren't getting hugs... you deserve to lie and cheat and steal to get some hugs. People can die from no hugs. Leaving the relationship isn't an option, because one of the needs is the need to have power and control over the spouse. One of the needs that isn't being met is the need to get that rush of 'screw them' as they screw over the spouse listing off the resentments and list of reasons they've built up to justify meeting needs in such a sleazy fashion. One of the unmet needs is the need to flirt and get attention from people that aren't your spouse...
> 
> Meanwhile, folks ignore the betrayed spouses needs.. the MCs want to talk about how the cheater was missing out on needs being met. You weren't holding their hand enough, so they found someone elses hand to hold. Lets ignore that once the cheating person finds another hand to hold, the betrayed spouse now has a ton of needs going unmet. The list grows the longer the affair continues. Those needs aren't important, because they aren't cheating so they must be happy enough. The cheating spouse must be doing a fine job of keeping them happy, that's why they don't cheat. If they weren't happy, they'd cheat because everyone knows that being unhappy is why people cheat. So keep meeting your spouses needs or they'll cheat. Don't worry about your own needs. Worry about them, jump through hoops.. work on yourself so they'll choose you over some person that makes them feel good that day.


.......as a BS ......in R for MANY years ....am I now allowed to whine about the unmet needs that I have ...for all these years?

As I see it ...my unmet needs include / included:

.....the need to feel that I'm The One

.....the need to feel that I deserve a little gold star on my collar ...for staying and giving YOU a second chance.

......the need to feel desired as a person ...and as THE sexual partner.

......the need for the truth ...as I had asked for it many times.



......I really wish I could feel as just as entitled ....but I have a HUGE problem with entitlements as a given in life.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

richardsharpe said:


> Good afternoon all
> The seriousness of "unmet needs" are depends on what those needs are. If someone is receiving no affection or intimacy from their spouse, then I would consider that a very serious unmet need.
> 
> Are the "unmet needs" something that someone would reasonably assume they would get when they agreed to marry?


In the context of an affair, 'unmet needs' are used as an excuse to lie and cheat.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening russell28
I agree, but whether or not its a valid excuse depends on what needs are not being met. 



russell28 said:


> In the context of an affair, 'unmet needs' are used as an excuse to lie and cheat.


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## Mrs_Mathias (Nov 19, 2012)

russell28 said:


> In the context of an affair, 'unmet needs' are used as an excuse to lie and cheat.



Not always, but I understand why it would seem that way. Many WS's do complain about their marriages to APs or toxic friends to gather support, but not ALL.

And whether they were an "excuse" (as in, not really a NEED, i.e. you didn't make breakfast for me every day so I felt uncared for) or they were "legitimate" (as in, we have had a sexless marriage as well as no non-sexual affection for years), neither JUSTIFIES or is a REASON for having an affair. And we all know that many people have had 'unmet needs' and didn't resort to cheating - that how we know it isn't the core REASON underlying the affair.

I get why this is such a hot-button phrase for so many people in this forum. I just wish we could find a way to discuss affairs, acknowledging commonalities, but not issuing edicts that attempt to pigeonhole ALL affairs as this or that. It would be the same as saying ALL BS's were perfect spouses, or terrible spouses, or beta, or enablers, or anything else.


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## Turin74 (Apr 11, 2014)

You're probably right about tendency to generalize, but, you see, the affair is just that. The pigeonhole. The end state. The end of the road. When your car ends in the ditch, you need to get it out pronto 1st and only after that think on how did it end there.

Since we are humans, words are our primary source of communication (somtimes the only one). And 'unmet needs' have been used so heavily used to justify the affair, I'm afraid their 'canonical' meaning is lost.



Mrs_Mathias said:


> I get why this is such a hot-button phrase for so many people in this forum. I just wish we could find a way to discuss affairs, acknowledging commonalities, but not issuing edicts that attempt to pigeonhole ALL affairs as this or that. It would be the same as saying ALL BS's were perfect spouses, or terrible spouses, or beta, or enablers, or anything else.


 _Posted via *Topify* on Android_


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## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I get why this is such a hot-button phrase for so many people in this forum. I just wish we could find a way to discuss affairs, acknowledging commonalities, but not issuing edicts that attempt to pigeonhole ALL affairs as this or that. It would be the same as saying ALL BS's were perfect spouses, or terrible spouses, or beta, or enablers, or anything else.



You bet its a hot-button issue. Probably because its an "all or none" type thing most of the time. You've either been blindsided by it, or you have no idea what its like. Around here, you have the added drama of you've either been bowled over by it, or you have been the one delivering the strike.

I think most BS would tell you anything they hear from a cheater is similar to hearing:

"I know it was wrong, but I was scared, and at the end of my rope, so I fired that shot just to get away. I had no idea your child was there...."

Overly melodramatic? You might be surprised. 

Cheating is a stupid and selfish thing to do, and not complicated at all. Weak, insecure, and clingy people cheat. 

Insecure Spouses Are More Likely To Cheat, Says Marriage Study

People with any backbone or brains know other ways to handle a relationship that is not "meeting their needs". They confront the problem. Do something about it that takes courage, integrity, balls, whatever.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening russell28
> I agree, but whether or not its a *valid excuse* depends on what needs are not being met.


There are no valid excuses for cheating. There are reasons for leaving a relationship that are valid.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Not always, but I understand why it would seem that way. Many WS's do complain about their marriages to APs or toxic friends to gather support, but not ALL.
> 
> And whether they were an "excuse" (as in, not really a NEED, i.e. you didn't make breakfast for me every day so I felt uncared for) or they were "legitimate" (as in, we have had a sexless marriage as well as no non-sexual affection for years), neither JUSTIFIES or is a REASON for having an affair. And we all know that many people have had 'unmet needs' and didn't resort to cheating - that how we know it isn't the core REASON underlying the affair.
> 
> I get why this is such a hot-button phrase for so many people in this forum. I just wish we could find a way to discuss affairs, acknowledging commonalities, but not issuing edicts that attempt to pigeonhole ALL affairs as this or that. It would be the same as saying ALL BS's were perfect spouses, or terrible spouses, or beta, or enablers, or anything else.


It would be more like saying all betrayed spouses were betrayed. Cheating does have many things in common. I can list them, but I shouldn't need to... Lets toss out telling lies as a beginner.

Using unmet needs as an excuse to become a liar and a cheater is just that, an excuse. As for spouses trying to talk, that's fine.. you talked, did you threaten to leave? If so, why didn't you go that route instead of cheating? This is where many cheaters, and yes, they often follow a script.. will say they couldn't leave for a list of reasons. More reasons.

So why do people cheat? They create a list of reasons why it's okay. 

If people that cheat want to be not lumped into one category, or pigeonholed, then they need to stop saying stupid things and talking about how their unmet needs was justification to become a liar and a cheat.


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## dignityhonorpride (Jan 2, 2014)

richardsharpe said:


> Are the "unmet needs" something that someone would reasonably assume they would get when they agreed to marry?


You mean, like.... fidelity? That whole "forsaking all others" thing?

:scratchhead:

If your needs are going unmet (and, hey, full disclosure: I'm a BW and many of my needs went unmet for years, and I never cheated), you have a couple of healthy choices:

1) MC
2) IC
3) Divorce, then see other people


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

Headspin said:


> Well the recent activity re 'forgiving', 'forgetting', 'accepting' etc has also given rise to the unassuming but for me personally spectacular little phrase that really shakes my anger bone right to the foundation
> 
> It has so many connotations relating to justification and vindicating...
> 
> ...



Do you mean - "You don't make me happy anymore .... I think I'll go 'f' someone!"


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

There is a legitimate concern that the CWI forum will not tolerate a serious discussion about how unmet needs can drive someone to cheat, or how someone's decision to cheat coincided with gross neglect of the BS. 

Not so sure about what is typical for TAM because a number of the infidelity stories are crazy, but IRL it seems like most cases of infidelity follow something like this:


A big problem develops in the marriage
Communication attempts to address the issue are made
Communication attempts fail
Spouse tries to communicate again
Communication attempt fails
Spouse experiences a degradation of boundaries over a period of time
Spouse cheats

Common questions: 1) why didn't my spouse just come to me if he/she had a problem? In many cases, the problem was most likely broached but it fell on deaf ears. 2) why didn't the WS simply divorce if the marriage was so bad? Probably because of KIDS, ASSETS and STANDARD OF LIVING - the same reasons why a BS will choose to R. 

Despite how despicable the decision to cheat is by the WS, inevitably we see IRL and on TAM that the truly successful R's only occur when BOTH spouses ultimately work on the marriage. Even though the cheating was 100% on the WS, the R never works unless the shared marital problems are addressed, and BOTH spouses have to work on personal improvement.

In the end, I think unmet needs discussions are important when the end game is a successful R.


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> There is a legitimate concern that the CWI forum will not tolerate a serious discussion about how unmet needs can drive someone to cheat, or how someone's decision to cheat coincided with gross neglect of the BS.
> 
> Not so sure about what is typical for TAM because a number of the infidelity stories are crazy, but IRL it seems like most cases of infidelity follow something like this:
> 
> ...


Got anything to back up that assertion, or are you pulling an opinion out of your ass?


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

Nucking Futs said:


> Got anything to back up that assertion, or are you pulling an opinion out of your ass?


I've seen it happen IRL as well as on some threads here once you dig for the facts. Are you asking for a peer reviewed infidelity study? Sorry, don't have one. However, the statement in bold was based on observation.

Notice I did not state "most" or "all".


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> A big problem develops in the marriage
> Communication attempts to address the issue are made
> Communication attempts fail
> Spouse tries to communicate again
> ...



A big problem develops or the spouse is bored or many other reasons why they are no longer happy. Those are reasons to be unhappy, not reasons to become a liar and a sneak.

They try to communicate this unhappiness in vague confusing attempts that are inconsistent and it's chalked up to a mood. They keep it vague because they can't mention the new person they've been flirting with that gives them goose bumps. So they just tell you they aren't happy and you need to change to make them happy. You need to change into this other person perhaps.

Even if they come right out and say "I'm going to leave you", do they do that? No, they choose to create a new relationship that works for them, and not only leave you out and in the dark. They are going to punish you for those things you did or didn't do that they talked about.

They continue to drop boundaries and continue to use the 'I tried to talk' reason and excuse, but never mention the boundary crossing or other person that they've been talking to.

Often the boundary problem comes first, the flirting and then comes the unhappiness and talks. I know this isn't always the case, but I've also read these forums and see the trend.

Unless those talks, and talks, and talks mentioned the boyfriend/girlfriend, when that person came into play, there is no valid reason to choose cheating as a solution to not being listened to.

So yes, people that cheat often tried to communicate. After someone cheats, they are found to have been telling lies. So those confusing ILYBINILWY 'talks', those are just a smoke screen for someone that's cheating. It's how they convince themselves that they tried. They are good people. They had no other choice. One thing they've proven by getting caught cheating and in lies. They aren't the best at communication skills unless you value being deceptive as a communication skill.

So people like myself, here at TAM, are not saying that we aren't aware these excuses exist. We are aware of the process and the use of justifications to make cheating something that is a normal part of the marriage process if things go bad. We just don't all accept it. We don't buy into the 'it all worked out for the best', or 'I'm happy that new guy is raising my kids, he's a good joe.. and I was bad, I made my wife cheat on me, she tried to talk to me' line of thinking. We call shenanigans. 


That's my list.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

So basically those attempts to talk are them building up resentments to use as justification for abusing the person they will cheat on.

They were mean to me, didn't give me x y and z, therefore, I can now seek a relationship outside of my marriage, break my vows, abuse my family and myself etc.. I can compromise all my values because someone did me wrong.

Also.. as for R as an endgame. Don't tell a spouse you cheated on, that you tried to talk to them and they didn't listen, so you cheated... if you really want them to not hate your guts. Tell them you were selfish and used your marriage problems as an excuse to escape the marriage, and not work on it. Don't pretend you were trying to work on it after you cheated, that's just insulting and makes you sound like one of those cheaters that says stupid things. When I got the "I tried to talk" thing.. I remembered the talk.. it was out of the blue, and I'd guess she was already cheating at that point. But she had it ready to go along with all the other 'reasons' and justifications that cheaters use. I think there's a post here with a comprehensive list.


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## BetrayedAgain7 (Apr 27, 2013)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> (2) why didn't the WS simply divorce if the marriage was so bad? Probably because of KIDS, ASSETS and STANDARD OF LIVING - the same reasons why a BS will choose to R.


Hold your horses right there. What you seem to be forgetting is ALL THESE things are a reason NOT to become a liar, a cheat and a thief. KIDS, ASSETS and STANDARD OF LIVING are all up for potential damage and destruction anyway as soon as the spouse makes the choice to cheat. 

So giving those reasons as an excuse NOT to file for divorce instead of facing up to their OWN cowardice is just that. Another EXCUSE!




Plan 9 from OS said:


> In the end, I think unmet needs discussions are important when the end game is a successful R.


As I have explained elsewhere, they are not UNMET needs by the BS if the BS was unaware of the fact. If they were aware and the BS chose to ignore that, then that is down to the WS to make it CLEARLY known that they have choices which are;

1. Intend to divorce.

2. Intend to get their ducks in a row and LEAVE. 

3. Intend to cheat within the marriage.


Or they stay and put up with the BS, working on themselves to get to the point where they can display courage, honour and integrity and actually do one of the above things instead of becoming a liar, cheat, thief and coward.

UNMET needs! Gimme a break!


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

BetrayedAgain7 said:


> Hold your horses right there. What you seem to be forgetting is ALL THESE things are a reason NOT to become a liar, a cheat and a thief. KIDS, ASSETS and STANDARD OF LIVING are all up for potential damage and destruction anyway as soon as the spouse makes the choice to cheat.
> 
> So giving those reasons as an excuse NOT to file for divorce instead of facing up to their OWN cowardice is just that. Another EXCUSE!
> 
> ...


"Unmet needs" is a perfectly valid form of marital issue. It is NOT a reason to cheat, true, but a spouse who doesn't consider his or her partners wishes is looking for trouble.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

BetrayedAgain7 said:


> Hold your horses right there. What you seem to be forgetting is ALL THESE things are a reason NOT to become a liar, a cheat and a thief. KIDS, ASSETS and STANDARD OF LIVING are all up for potential damage and destruction anyway as soon as the spouse makes the choice to cheat.
> 
> So giving those reasons as an excuse NOT to file for divorce instead of facing up to their OWN cowardice is just that. Another EXCUSE!
> 
> ...


Using the children as an excuse to R, doesn't quite feel the same as using the children as an excuse to lie and sneak and abuse them..

My daughters wanted to know why mom never asked them to go with her on Saturday when she was cheating.. she always used to go with them and take them out before she got a boyfriend, but she always had a reason to go alone when she was cheating. Yea, she was doing it for the children... What a noble act.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> "Unmet needs" is a perfectly valid form of marital issue. It is NOT a reason to cheat, true, but a spouse who doesn't consider his or her partners wishes is looking for trouble.


Nobody is saying that people shouldn't always work on a marriage or trying to better themselves. You don't do that by being dishonest with your spouse and sneaking around on them. That's not how to work on a marriage. So when people talk about problems in the marriage, most of them seem silly when compared to the wayward spouse boinking another person. That one needs to be dealt with first. The why they chose that route, how they justified it, what reasons they used and why they are bogus. They need to identify the problem that lies within them, and not project it onto outside sources if they want to convince the betrayed spouse that they aren't still being selfish. An affair basically says "I gave up on the marriage", so when it's discovered, the marriage problems are used as a smoke screen to mask the now even bigger problem, infidelity.

To use the old house analogy..

Why did you burn down the house?

Because I told you to paint the living room, I wasn't happy with that color.. I told you over and over again. You never listened to me, so I burned the house down. Now lets talk about how you never want to paint the living room, and you should do that more so you won't have to worry about me burning the house down again.. What colors do you like, I have some swatches. Lets go to Home Depot and get some paint...

What is the bigger problem, the paint on the walls in the living room, or the fact that the house is now a pile of ashes?


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## BetrayedAgain7 (Apr 27, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> "Unmet needs" is a perfectly valid form of marital issue. It is NOT a reason to cheat, true, but a spouse who doesn't consider his or her partners wishes is looking for trouble.


Where did I excuse the BS of the requirement to fulfill the marriage vows?

*Unmet* needs are only valid if it's discussed BEFORE the WS cheats! 

I don't know how many times I have to repeat that. :scratchhead:


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

The Middleman said:


> Do you mean - "You don't make me happy anymore .... I think I'll go 'f' someone!"


Ahaa well no actually and here's the subtle difference 

I meant 

"I think I'll go fk someone" and after "now you don't make me happy any more (and I'd better find a way out of this sh!t now)" 

Quite funny that - the very very same words just ordered differently and what a hell of a difference !!


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

It IS interesting when you go full on into this and note more investigative and deeper analysis 

So do a couple never talk then? Never discuss anything. Ever ? Absolute rubbish

My marriage like most, was full on with my sensory perception going 'mmm she was a bit reticent about this or that - maybe I talk to her about about that' ... _and we would_ and everything would be fine etc etc and every now and then it would be the reverse, she would pick up on something I was not happy about and we'd sulk then talk and it would be resolved just like nearly every couple I know does. 

Lets be frank, now that I think about it deeply *every couple talks* and talks about the things that are troubling them. It's actually incredibly rare that one of a couple can turn around and say "we NEVER talked about that specific thing that bothered me" - THAT is bullshi!t

See, when you get down to the nitty gritty, when you get to thinking about it the whole term "unmet needs" and what's behind it is infuriatingly bollocks. It's a manipulation for back dated resentment based on 'what I've already done' / what I'm about to do' that is going to rip us all to fking shreds'

The more I think about it .......sheesh


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

Headspin said:


> It IS interesting when you go full on into this and note more investigative and deeper analysis
> 
> So do a couple never talk then? Never discuss anything. Ever ? Absolute rubbish
> 
> ...


Yes, every couple talks about things. I'm sure almost all couples have had discussions where one or both are not happy about specific issues. Yet how many actually do something about it? Communication is great. But what if the message is not received, or if it is received the other spouse thinks "everything is fine" and chooses to do nothing? This explains the examples I've seen IRL. 

Now am I saying that it's OK to cheat? NO. I think these are reasons why a WS can choose to cheat though - as an escape. 

If you take away the infidelity, the dynamics you see in a couple with a bad marriage are largely the same. Why do couples stick it out in crappy marriages? Same reasons why a cheater decides to cheat instead of leave the marriage. KIDS, ASSETS and STANDARD OF LIVING. The person with the most resentment and perception that his/her needs are unmet will try to "escape" the marriage too. Instead of in the arms of another, it may be constantly going out with friends, hobbies, social media and other outlets. 

Just a thought, but I think in most cases the unhappy spouse isn't looking to cheat but is taken thru a gateway that ends towards cheating. Withdrawing from the marriage and either engaging in new games on social media, finding new hobbies to do with others and even going out more with friends can be gateways to cheating. I think many don't intend to go down the path but they do after realizing that it's nice to get deeper intimacy if it's been lacking in the marriage for awhile. 

Again, I don't condone cheating as a solution to problems in the marriage. But it makes sense to try to piece together how and why things went so terribly wrong in the first place.


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## survivorwife (May 15, 2012)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> *Just a thought, but I think in most cases the unhappy spouse isn't looking to cheat but is taken thru a gateway that ends towards cheating. * Withdrawing from the marriage and either engaging in new games on social media, finding new hobbies to do with others and even going out more with friends can be gateways to cheating. I think many don't intend to go down the path but they do after realizing that it's nice to get deeper intimacy if it's been lacking in the marriage for awhile.


Just a thought, but I think that life itself is full of "gateways" for all of us. Some of us aren't paying attention to the gateways because cheating is not an option. While at work, I meet many people, but cheating is not an option. Grocery shopping, attending meetings, parties - you name it. All involve interaction with others and none of which where considered "gateways" because cheating was not an option.

It appears from your words that there is slant to make the WS a "victim". They were not happy, a "gateway" opened up for them, and they just walked through that "gateway". Whoopsie!

An unhappy individual has many options. Divorce and/or Separation are the obvious. Sadly some people turn to drugs or alcohol. Still others find solace in an interest or hobby or a way to occupy their time alone. So many options - but the one we are addressing here is the most painful and hardest to fix, intimacy with someone other than your spouse. Cheating. Breaking a vow. And it can't be undone.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Bottom line right there Plan 9... "choose to cheat"

Basically, when faced with the option to do something. You can choose to do the right thing, or choose to do the wrong thing. You can blame others for the choice, or outside forces. You can even say you warned the person, but unless you told them you were going to cheat, you really didn't talk.

Faced with lack of hugs

After you steal hugs.. don't blame the universe for making you sad and forcing you to steal hugs. The universe wasn't really to blame, it was a choice. Where did that choice really come from?.. and was the partner that was _talked _to informed of this choice?


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

survivorwife said:


> Just a thought, but I think that life itself is full of "gateways" for all of us. Some of us aren't paying attention to the gateways because cheating is not an option. While at work, I meet many people, but cheating is not an option. Grocery shopping, attending meetings, parties - you name it. All involve interaction with others and none of which where considered "gateways" because cheating was not an option.
> 
> It appears from your words that there is slant to make the WS a "victim". They were not happy, a "gateway" opened up for them, and they just walked through that "gateway". Whoopsie!
> 
> An unhappy individual has many options. Divorce and/or Separation are the obvious. Sadly some people turn to drugs or alcohol. Still others find solace in an interest or hobby or a way to occupy their time alone. So many options - but the one we are addressing here is the most painful and hardest to fix, intimacy with someone other than your spouse. Cheating. Breaking a vow. And it can't be undone.


Also when people talk like this, they don't realize they are already open to the idea that affairs are okay in certain circumstances.. These are the people that are highest risk for cheating.

I agree with you that you don't consider it because it's not an option... While my wife was deep in her affair and my needs being met was at an all time low, a woman I was on a lunch meeting with wanted to go back to her apartment. I said no, lets go get lunch at a local spot... I never went to lunch with her again. I saw it as an insult to me and my marriage and it scared the hell out of me. After I found out my wife had been cheating, imagine how foolish I felt for not playing by those same rules she'd been playing by. 

At some point in those talks, the partner needs to mention the rules have changed and it's okay for the spouse to date other people now, because they are seeing someone.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I don't think you should feel foolish, Russell. I think you should feel proud of yourself for how you reacted to that woman. 

And even now, you have a clear conscience and self-respect. Your wife does not.


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## TryingToRecover (Dec 19, 2012)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening russell28
> I agree, but whether or not its a valid excuse depends on what needs are not being met.


There is no "valid excuse" to cheat. One doesn't get to grant themselves a hall pass even if they have a legitimate which isn't being met. 

That said, it is interesting  my WS decided he had "unmet needs" AFTER he met the person who became his AP. His unmet needs were just part of the laundry list of excuses a broken man used to justify stepping out on his marriage.

Not to say marital problems didn't exist and there were things we should have been working on. Some of which I was responsible for. But cheating is not the way people should solve problems. If it were, should the owner of the grocery store piss me off then do I get a hall pass enabling me to shoplift? Do I get to rob the bank if I don't like their new fees? Obviously not. But I can close my account and go to another bank. That is, instead of blowing the s*it out of their establishment, hurting innocent people in the process, and having forever tarnished my life and the lives of others with my actions. 

I digress, having actually gone through the betrayal and the aftermath, now in R, I know there is no excuse for cheating. There are definitely valid excuses for divorcing someone who could have been a BS (should a different path have been chosen) and not looking back if all other legitimate means to fix the marriage are exhausted. Volunteering ones's junk to someone outside the marriage never actually solves problems and obviously only creates even more. 

I had unmet needs too but I wasn't out trying to screw my coworker. I sincerely wasn't doing anything to work on the marriage pre-affair and had we discussed our issues, instead of WS pretending everything was fine and me being a depressed lump......and then had I chosen to continue being a lump of blah not meeting anyone else's needs then yes, he could have left and divorced with a clear conscience to screw anyone single that walked and I what could I have said? Not a damn thing.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> But it makes sense to try to piece together how and why things went so terribly wrong in the first place.


Things go wrong when the person that cheats, decides that's an option and chooses that destructive path as the option.

We often see an R where a couple works on problems that led to cheating and now things are wonderful for them.

What changed in those relationships? I can tell you one thing.. there is no longer a third party involved. That's a big one. 

Why are these marriages able to work now, if they were so broken before? Is it because they are working on the relationship instead of sneaking and telling lies? How can a betrayed spouse fix a marriage if they are getting half the story? Don't you think in order to fix marriage problems, both partners need to be honest with each other during those talks?


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

jld said:


> I don't think you should feel foolish, Russell. I think you should feel proud of yourself for how you reacted to that woman.
> 
> And even now, you have a clear conscience and self-respect. Your wife does not.


Thanks jld, I eventually figured it out.. but at first you're like 'damn.. all those times I had her back, and she was off in a motel with her boyfriend disrespecting me..'


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

russell28 said:


> Thanks jld, I eventually figured it out.. but at first you're like 'damn.. all those times I had her back, and she was off in a motel with her boyfriend disrespecting me..'


And disrespecting herself. And she has to own that forever.

Have you reconciled, Russell? How is your relationship with your wife now?


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

jld said:


> And disrespecting herself. And she has to own that forever.
> 
> Have you reconciled, Russell? How is your relationship with your wife now?


I am in R, it's difficult at times but my wife works very hard and is saying and doing all the right things. It does make you wonder why all this wonderful effort now, and why couldn't this have been the path we took instead of going the 'coworker boyfriend' route.. also will it be enough, a good loving marriage, or will she eventually need a thrill on the side again? What if times get tough, will she need to escape into the arms of a coworker again? These are things she needs to work on, I can't control her boundaries or her self control..


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Did she tell you why she went that route? I'm sorry if you've already explained this elsewhere. I'm not familiar with your story.


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## survivorwife (May 15, 2012)

russell28 said:


> Also when people talk like this, they don't realize they are already open to the idea that affairs are okay in certain circumstances.. These are the people that are highest risk for cheating.
> 
> I agree with you that you don't consider it because it's not an option... While my wife was deep in her affair and my needs being met was at an all time low, a woman I was on a lunch meeting with wanted to go back to her apartment. I said no, lets go get lunch at a local spot... I never went to lunch with her again. I saw it as an insult to me and my marriage and it scared the hell out of me. After I found out my wife had been cheating, imagine how foolish I felt for not playing by those same rules she'd been playing by.
> 
> At some point in those talks, the partner needs to mention the rules have changed and it's okay for the spouse to date other people now, because they are seeing someone.


No need to feel "foolish". You were able to maintain your own self-respect and I would assume that, looking back, somewhere in your mind you realize that you "dodged the bullet" and can live with your decision. 

I've never had a problem getting male attention. Not that I was looking for it, but I suppose my looks, personality and demeanor draw that sort of attention. And yes, I like it! (I'm human...lol) It fed my ego, nothing more. During my marriage that attention/feedback gave me the strength and the confidence in myself to know that, nomatter what happens, I'll be fine.

Now that I am divorced and free to date, (and after being cheated on), the attention is still there, however (and unfortunately) much of the attention comes from married men who see me as "available". They seem not to be aware (at first) how they immediately lose my respect, knowing that they have wives at home who may or may not be aware of how their spouses flirt when they are not around. It really is offensive to me and sad. I will not be the OW in someone's marriage.

My marital status (or lack of) is known at work among people that have known me for years. One married man decided to tell me of his problem with his wife (she doesn't understand me..lol). I shut him down. My experience has taught me that his wife does understand him, as do I - and no - there is no future in a relationship with me so long as he remains married. 

So you see, whether married, in R, D, or otherwise, you as an individual get to retain your own self-respect based on your choices, past and present. It's who you are, regardless of your circumstances.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

jld said:


> Did she tell you why she went that route? I'm sorry if you've already explained this elsewhere. I'm not familiar with your story.


We were together for 30+ years, she was bored.. met a guy at work with previous cheating experience (divorced with girlfriend), flirted.. got too close.. and made up a list of 'reasons' to justify the "escape". Her mom and grandma taught her that's what you do, that's how marriage works. Her mom is married to her OM. In one of those 'all worked out for the best' type of affairs. I cut her slack for her bad role models, she doesn't use that excuse.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I'm glad she is working to regain your trust, Russell. I'm sure transparency and humility are part of that. Best of luck to both of you.


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

FWIW, I think the term "unmet needs" is unfortunate because it lumps together two different categories:

1. Real "unkept promises" explicit or implicit in the marriage vows, like showing physical affection, providing material and emotional support, sharing a life, treating with respect. If one spouse denies these to another they are arguably, breaking their marriage vows. If the other spouse reacts by cheating (breaking another marriage vow-- notice that I did not say that the cheating was "caused" by anything), then you have one level of discussion.

2. "Unmet needs" as selfish entitlements: Cravings for excitement, excessive needs for attention, the desire to "feel wanted," whatever. If a spouse responds to these feelings by cheating then you have another level of discussion.

Not to say that in either case cheating is either justified or is a reasonable reaction, but I think these are two different situations calling for two different types of discussion. Successful R is much more possible under Scenario 1 than Scenario 2. And I think those BS who are victims of the Scenario 2 version of "unmet needs" cannot help but respond to that term the way that they do--as shorthand for "selfish entitlements." Even if this is projecting onto Scenario 1.

Just my 2 cents.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

russell28 said:


> Nobody is saying that people shouldn't always work on a marriage or trying to better themselves. You don't do that by being dishonest with your spouse and sneaking around on them. That's not how to work on a marriage. So when people talk about problems in the marriage, most of them seem silly when compared to the wayward spouse boinking another person. That one needs to be dealt with first. The why they chose that route, how they justified it, what reasons they used and why they are bogus. They need to identify the problem that lies within them, and not project it onto outside sources if they want to convince the betrayed spouse that they aren't still being selfish. An affair basically says "I gave up on the marriage", so when it's discovered, the marriage problems are used as a smoke screen to mask the now even bigger problem, infidelity.
> 
> To use the old house analogy..
> 
> ...


Okay, using your own analogy. Wouldn't it be better to paint the room? For the life of me, I can't see why so many people get into marriages and then conveniently forget about their partners wants and needs. One thing it shows is how unprepared we all were when we first got married, doesn't it? Did anybody ever tell you that a marriage was a two way street? Or that constant communication was vital to a healthy marriage? They didn't me. The thing about wedding vows is that both parties must fulfill them. If one partner refuses to listen to the other, big trouble will ensue.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> Okay, using your own analogy. Wouldn't it be better to paint the room? For the life of me, I can't see why so many people get into marriages and then conveniently forget about their partners wants and needs. One thing it shows is how unprepared we all were when we first got married, doesn't it? Did anybody ever tell you that a marriage was a two way street? Or that constant communication was vital to a healthy marriage? They didn't me. The thing about wedding vows is that both parties must fulfill them. If one partner refuses to listen to the other, big trouble will ensue.


You have to be humble in marriage, willing to listen to your spouse and change things if it would better meet both of your needs.

There really is no place for selfishness and laziness in marriage, if you want a happy one.


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## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

Well then...

If we ever come to understanding the WS waywardness, it will never justify the action. Understanding why does not justify the action period. 

How does one determine which potential partner has the right stuff to go all the way through life together - with the loyalty and honor we ourselves have and require? 

Date longer? 
Marry older? 
Fewer previous partners?
More experience?
Virgins? 
Family values?

Who knows what the common denominators are or what signs to look for OR avoid. Is it all just a crap shoot?


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> Okay, using your own analogy. Wouldn't it be better to paint the room? For the life of me, I can't see why so many people get into marriages and then conveniently forget about their partners wants and needs. One thing it shows is how unprepared we all were when we first got married, doesn't it? Did anybody ever tell you that a marriage was a two way street? Or that constant communication was vital to a healthy marriage? They didn't me. The thing about wedding vows is that both parties must fulfill them. If one partner refuses to listen to the other, big trouble will ensue.


Thing is, they really didn't care about the room being painted, they just wanted an excuse to cheat.. and you were confused because the room looked fine, that's why you didn't paint it. It was also confusing the 'paint the room' talks that came out of nowhere, when the room seemed okay to me.

So perhaps the spouse needed to communicate that the room being a color that made them uncomfortable was the issue, more details, more information. Perhaps if they mention that the guy in work says he likes the same color and would have painted the room for her...

Had my wife said "The room being painted is so important to me, that if you don't paint it I'll cheat on you". Do you think I would have left the room not painted?

Also, does the wife notice that while she was complaining about me not painting that one room, I painted the porch, the shed and built a pool and deck? Those things were ignored, because those wouldn't help justify cheating.

Also, what was the other spouse doing to work on the marriage? Talking about what they need you to do to meet their unmet needs? Are they worrying about meeting your needs? Perhaps you wanted them to paint something and they were too busy painting the guy at works living room to paint what you needed painted.


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## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

russell28 said:


> Thing is, they really didn't care about the room being painted, they just wanted an excuse to cheat.. and you were confused because the room looked fine, that's why you didn't paint it. It was also confusing the 'paint the room' talks that came out of nowhere, when the room seemed okay to me.
> 
> So perhaps the spouse needed to communicate that the room being a color that made them uncomfortable was the issue, more details, more information. Perhaps if they mention that the guy in work says he likes the same color and would have painted the room for her...
> 
> ...


Then they will say it was the wrong color or tint, therefore I will cheat. And so on...


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

@ Q tip: I don't think there are any promises. And we mostly have to focus on what we're doing in the marriage, not what our partner is doing.

You are right, the cheating is never justified. And it can never be erased. 

As to what to look for in a partner . . . for me, I really had the sense that DH was a stable man. I really needed that. His commitment was really important, too.

I brought transparency and communication skills.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

BetrayedAgain7 said:


> Where did I excuse the BS of the requirement to fulfill the marriage vows?
> 
> *Unmet* needs are only valid if it's discussed BEFORE the WS cheats!
> 
> I don't know how many times I have to repeat that. :scratchhead:


I agree, but a lot of posters seem to think that the WS is evil and the BS is saintly. That affairs are hatched out of the blue. The WS simply got up one morning and decided to cheat? Bull****!!! You will find very, very few WS who are sociopathic to that extent. Most affairs are like a pot of coffee, they have been brewing for quite some time. Let me give you an example.
I used to know a guy who cheated on his wife. After having two kids, she "let herself go" and gained a lot of weight. Now in other aspects, she was a good mother and good wife, but he no longer found her sexually attractive and began to look at other, younger women. They would have fights all of the time. He would ask her to lose weight and go to the gym, she would say that she had given him two wonderful kids and he should be happy with that, and that she couldn't find the time . They were at cross purposes, and it became a battle of wills. Long story , short, he got caught and they divorced. NOW, she goes to the gym and looks great. It seems like she found the time, only after the marriage was over. He told me recently that if she had tried a little , he would never have cheated. I told him that didn't excuse what he did, but that they shouldn't have take each other for granted and tried to work their differences out together. This is how affairs get started, not some mythical, black and white scenerio.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

russell28 said:


> Thing is, they really didn't care about the room being painted, they just wanted an excuse to cheat.. and you were confused because the room looked fine, that's why you didn't paint it. It was also confusing the 'paint the room' talks that came out of nowhere, when the room seemed okay to me.
> 
> So perhaps the spouse needed to communicate that the room being a color that made them uncomfortable was the issue, more details, more information. Perhaps if they mention that the guy in work says he likes the same color and would have painted the room for her...
> 
> ...


Bull****!! Very, very few WS WANT to cheat. You are simply trying to justify your anger and disappointment. BTDT.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Q tip said:


> Well then...
> 
> If we ever come to understanding the WS waywardness, it will never justify the action. Understanding why does not justify the action period.
> 
> ...


Not family values, MARRIAGE VALUES! Like any other skill, it takes effort to be a good spouse. You have to take training to own a gun, or drive a car, but any fool can get married with no training whatsoever. Perhaps the answer is to make it a law that you have to go to marriage counseling, BEFORE, you tie the knot.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> Bull****!! Very, very few WS WANT to cheat. You are simply trying to justify your anger and disappointment. BTDT.


So you are saying your wife cheated on you because she communicated her unmet needs to you in a clear and honest fashion, and you ignored her?

Of course my wife wanted to cheat. She cheated on me for five years, that seems like something she worked hard for.

My wife wasn't telling me her resentments, she was keeping them inside. Her talks of paint the living room, really meant she wanted a new house, she just didn't want to tell me that she was tired of our house. The talks weren't often enough, and she was painting a picture of being happy for me and everyone else. She found a new house, and snuck there on weekends.

I don't know your situation, but that is mine. You can blame yourself for your wife's choice to cheat. I'm not going to do that to myself.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Oh, my gosh, Russell, five years. And she kept all her feelings inside. My goodness.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> I agree, but a lot of posters seem to think that the WS is evil and the BS is saintly. That affairs are hatched out of the blue. The WS simply got up one morning and decided to cheat? Bull****!!! You will find very, very few WS who are sociopathic to that extent. Most affairs are like a pot of coffee, they have been brewing for quite some time. Let me give you an example.
> I used to know a guy who cheated on his wife. After having two kids, she "let herself go" and gained a lot of weight. Now in other aspects, she was a good mother and good wife, but he no longer found her sexually attractive and began to look at other, younger women. They would have fights all of the time. He would ask her to lose weight and go to the gym, she would say that she had given him two wonderful kids and he should be happy with that, and that she couldn't find the time . They were at cross purposes, and it became a battle of wills. Long story , short, he got caught and they divorced. NOW, she goes to the gym and looks great. It seems like she found the time, only after the marriage was over. He told me recently that if she had tried a little , he would never have cheated. I told him that didn't excuse what he did, but that they shouldn't have take each other for granted and tried to work their differences out together. This is how affairs get started, not some mythical, black and white scenerio.


He would have found some other excuse.. he got caught, and he used his wifes weight problem as his reason for being an ahole. You also fell for it.. yea, it was all her. She got fat, so she pretty much deserved to be treated poorly. He did tell her she was fat after all.. and unattractive. He sounds like he was pretty much the perfect spouse, and she was a monster. Excellent example


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

jld said:


> Oh, my gosh, Russell, five years. And she kept all her feelings inside. My goodness.


Master of lies and excellent at compartmentalization and putting on masks. Her mom, aunt and grandma taught her how to manipulate men to get what she needs. It only took me three decades to catch on.


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## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

Rookie4 said:


> Not family values, MARRIAGE VALUES! Like any other skill, it takes effort to be a good spouse. You have to take training to own a gun, or drive a car, but any fool can get married with no training whatsoever. Perhaps the answer is to make it a law that you have to go to marriage counseling, BEFORE, you tie the knot.


Then you can blame the counselor, who happened to think an occasional ONS is OK... Even with training, accidents can happen..

Point is, how to detect the undetectable and avoid marriage with that "type".


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## survivorwife (May 15, 2012)

russell28 said:


> He would have found some other excuse.. he got caught, and he used his wifes weight problem as his reason for being an ahole. You also fell for it.. yea, it was all her. She got fat, so she pretty much deserved to be treated poorly. He did tell her she was fat after all.. and unattractive. He sounds like he was pretty much the perfect spouse, and she was a monster. Excellent example


Fascinating isn't it. The cheater's view. Let's recap that one. She was a good wife and mother. It takes time and effort to be both. Except she gained some weight, and that, my friends, is the reason the cheater gives for cheating. He fought her about her weight. Did he offer to take over chores so she could free up some time to exercise? Was he supportive and understanding? They fought, but did they talk? Communicate? Did he tell her was going to cheat if she didn't lose a few pounds?

And then the cheater has the utter nerve to comment on her current appearance now that she has lost weight and dumped him, and proclaims that he would not have cheated if she made the effort before?

Is this not a prime example of rewriting history? Yep. It's her fault, right? Let's all put this burden on her (in addition to the cheating spouse).

It sounds like she is doing well now though. Karma.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

survivorwife said:


> Fascinating isn't it. The cheater's view. Let's recap that one. She was a good wife and mother. It takes time and effort to be both. Except she gained some weight, and that, my friends, is the reason the cheater gives for cheating. He fought her about her weight. Did he offer to take over chores so she could free up some time to exercise? Was he supportive and understanding? They fought, but did they talk? Communicate? Did he tell her was going to cheat if she didn't lose a few pounds?
> 
> And then the cheater has the utter nerve to comment on her current appearance now that she has lost weight and dumped him, and proclaims that he would not have cheated if she made the effort before?
> 
> ...


Exactly.. If my wife put on a few pounds, I'd like her being chunky.. If it became a health concern, I'd worry about her health and not decide to sneak behind her back to find a thinner woman that appealed to me, then blame her for it.. because I told her to go to the gym after she made me a samich...


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

russell28 said:


> So you are saying your wife cheated on you because she communicated her unmet needs to you in a clear and honest fashion, and you ignored her?
> 
> Of course my wife wanted to cheat. She cheated on me for five years, that seems like something she worked hard for.
> 
> ...


I wish I were as self righteous as you seem to think you are. Are you telling me that NEVER, ONCE did your wife try to communicate with you? Or that NEVER, ONCE, did you have the foggiest idea that something was wrong? No offense, I'm not you, but I don't think I would want people to know that I was that clueless.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> I wish I were as self righteous as you seem to think you are. Are you telling me that NEVER, ONCE did your wife try to communicate with you? Or that NEVER, ONCE, did you have the foggiest idea that something was wrong? No offense, I'm not you, but* I don't think I would want people to know that I was that clueless*.


If you don't want people to know you are clueless, perhaps stop posting?

No, I didn't know she was screwing the guy at work Rookie.. she didn't mention it, and she did a pretty good job of covering it up.

I described her communications with me, I got one ILYBINILWY out of nowhere, and it made no sense at the time because I wasn't on TAM.

No offense, but I think you shouldn't resort to calling people clueless because your arguments are weak.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Another thing.. if you listen to everything your spouse says and try to jump through hoops, then they say they cheated because you weren't attractive, you were needy. Not alpha enough, too beta... 

Affairs do actually happen because people want some strange.. they get bored, and they think they can get away with it. Then when they get caught they break out the list of reasons and excuses they've worked on to justify what they were up to.


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## survivorwife (May 15, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> I wish I were as self righteous as you seem to think you are. Are you telling me that NEVER, ONCE did your wife try to communicate with you? Or that NEVER, ONCE, did you have the foggiest idea that something was wrong? No offense, I'm not you, but I don't think I would want people to know that I was that clueless.


Oh boy. You really want to go there?

(Takes a deep breath). I know that your comment wasn't directed at me, but I do take exception to the implication (or is it arrogance?) to imply that a betrayed spouse is now "clueless" (about the cheating) which implies that we are a bunch of dummies because we trusted our spouses not to cheat. Or that we are "self-righteous" because we didn't cheat (which is actually correct as we were true to our marriage vows).

People are human. Spouses are human. We have good days together and bad days together. There is communication and there is silent reflection. But one thing should remain a constant, and that is the marriage vows. 

To berate a BS for being "clueless" and to suggest that the moral superior role (the person who was in the same marriage and did not cheat) is somewhat offensive is astounding to me.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

survivorwife said:


> Fascinating isn't it. The cheater's view. Let's recap that one. She was a good wife and mother. It takes time and effort to be both. Except she gained some weight, and that, my friends, is the reason the cheater gives for cheating. He fought her about her weight. Did he offer to take over chores so she could free up some time to exercise? Was he supportive and understanding? They fought, but did they talk? Communicate? Did he tell her was going to cheat if she didn't lose a few pounds?
> 
> And then the cheater has the utter nerve to comment on her current appearance now that she has lost weight and dumped him, and proclaims that he would not have cheated if she made the effort before?
> 
> ...


Like most haters, you completely miss the point., Regardless of whether or not you agree with your spouses wants or needs, and regardless of whether you think they are good reason or not, you have to be willing to take them into account. If you don't, you are in for trouble. Either by cheating or divorce, or (in most cases) a marriage that is constantly in turmoil. Who needs ANY of this? And, nowhere does the fact that the WS cheated, excuse the BS behavior. Too many people think that because their spouse cheated, that means they get a free pass.
I was the cause of a LOT of my marital problems, that doesn't excuse my ex wife's cheating, but I should have paid more attention to what was happening in my marriage, instead of thinking I was doing enough. She tried to communicate to me, (albeit, angrily) but I shrugged it off , thinking that money would make up for affection. So, she became a cheater and hated herself and me, and our marriage became a constant struggle. I agree that what we SHOULD have done is divorce, and that's what we eventually did.
Now, she has learned to control her anger, and realizes that she f**ked up, and I learned to pay more attention to my relationships, but it's too late to turn back now.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

russell28 said:


> If you don't want people to know you are clueless, perhaps stop posting?
> 
> No, I didn't know she was screwing the guy at work Rookie.. she didn't mention it, and she did a pretty good job of covering it up.
> 
> ...


So what would you call it, when you don't know what the person closest to you is feeling? You really had no clue that anything at all was happening, even now can you look back and see the signs? So you got the ILYBINILWY, and you think that is normal? That is just about the biggest red flag, ever.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> Like most haters, you completely miss the point., Regardless of whether or not you agree with your spouses wants or needs, and regardless of whether you think they are good reason or not, you have to be willing to take them into account. If you don't, you are in for trouble. Either by cheating or divorce, or (in most cases) a marriage that is constantly in turmoil. Who needs ANY of this? And, nowhere does the fact that the WS cheated, excuse the BS behavior. Too many people think that because their spouse cheated, that means they get a free pass.
> I was the cause of a LOT of my marital problems, that doesn't excuse my ex wife's cheating, but I should have paid more attention to what was happening in my marriage, instead of thinking I was doing enough. She tried to communicate to me, (albeit, angrily) but I shrugged it off , thinking that money would make up for affection. So, she became a cheater and hated herself and me, and our marriage became a constant struggle. I agree that what we SHOULD have done is divorce, and that's what we eventually did.
> Now, she has learned to control her anger, and realizes that she f**ked up, and I learned to pay more attention to my relationships, but it's too late to turn back now.


I think that's very honest, rookie. Cheating is never justifiable. But looking at how we treat each other can really be helpful in marriage, too.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

russell28 said:


> Another thing.. if you listen to everything your spouse says and try to jump through hoops, then they say they cheated because you weren't attractive, you were needy. Not alpha enough, too beta...
> 
> Affairs do actually happen because people want some strange.. they get bored, and they think they can get away with it. Then when they get caught they break out the list of reasons and excuses they've worked on to justify what they were up to.


Of course, Dude. All WS are evil and all BS are saints. Believe that if it makes you feel better.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

survivorwife said:


> Oh boy. You really want to go there?
> 
> (Takes a deep breath). I know that your comment wasn't directed at me, but I do take exception to the implication (or is it arrogance?) to imply that a betrayed spouse is now "clueless" (about the cheating) which implies that we are a bunch of dummies because we trusted our spouses not to cheat. Or that we are "self-righteous" because we didn't cheat (which is actually correct as we were true to our marriage vows).
> 
> ...


Marriage vows are only as valid or not as the people who keep them. WS or BS. And I was a BS, and most of my comments are directed at myself, as well.
Every marriage has problems, and no "marriage vows" will fix those problems. It takes BOTH parties, working together, and relying on each other, to fix marital problems. If the problems are too great to fix, bad things will happen.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> Like most haters, you completely miss the point., Regardless of whether or not you agree with your spouses wants or needs, and regardless of whether you think they are good reason or not, you have to be willing to take them into account. If you don't, you are in for trouble. Either by cheating or divorce, or (in most cases) a marriage that is constantly in turmoil. Who needs ANY of this? And, nowhere does the fact that the WS cheated, excuse the BS behavior. Too many people think that because their spouse cheated, that means they get a free pass.
> * I was the cause* of a LOT of my marital problems, that doesn't excuse my ex wife's cheating, *but I should have paid more attention to what was happening in my marriage*, instead of thinking I was doing enough. *She tried to communicate to me,* (albeit, angrily) but I shrugged it off , thinking that money would make up for affection. So, she became a cheater and hated herself and me, and our marriage became a constant struggle. I agree that what we SHOULD have done is divorce, and that's what we eventually did.
> Now, she has learned to control her anger, and realizes that she f**ked up, and I learned to pay more attention to my relationships, but it's too late to turn back now.


Classic example of blame shifting. We see it here daily now. It's the new normal.

When she tried to talk, did she mention her boyfriend?

You thought you were doing enough because cheating people don't let on that there are huge problems, or you might get suspicious that they are cheating. They don't care about your marriage problems, they've already solved them by eating cake.

Would you have shrugged it off if she was honest about what she was really up to? What her plans were to work on things? We know you were doing nothing, what was she doing besides telling you half truths? Boinking other guys? But it was all you not working hard enough, she was working so hard... 

(sigh)


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Marriage vows are like the blueprints of a house, they show you what to do, but YOU have to do the work.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> Of course, Dude. All WS are evil and all BS are saints. Believe that if it makes you feel better.


No, bringing another man into my bed wasn't evil at all, that was wonderful and a great way to work on our marriage... and me turning down the offer to go to that lady's apartment, that was pretty evil of me. She had needs too... 

Keep talking.....


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> Marriage vows are like the blueprints of a house, they show you what to do, but YOU have to do the work.


While you are working on the blueprint, the wayward spouse has a different blueprint they are going by.. more bedrooms and a jacuzzi, with a built in f buddy.. those are missing from the blueprint you are building by.


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## survivorwife (May 15, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> Marriage vows are only as valid or not as the people who keep them. WS or BS. And I was a BS, and most of my comments are directed at myself, as well.
> Every marriage has problems, and no "marriage vows" will fix those problems. It takes BOTH parties, working together, and relying on each other, to fix marital problems. *If the problems are too great to fix, bad things will happen*.


True. Like Divorce - the honorable way out of an "unfixable" marriage. Or Counselling if things are fixable. Not cheating. There has to be a line in the sand that both parties agree not to cross - hence the "marriage vows" that both parties agreed to uphold.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Russell, cheating is never justified. I don't think Rookie is saying it is. He is just trying to look at what he could have done differently.

Ans survivorwife is right. The vows are the line in the sand, the Do Not Enter zone of marriage.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Did my wife try hard to fix our problems? Not as hard as she could have, and she admits this. Dude, you really need to be able to separate marital issues with infidelity issues.
If you want to believe that you were completely innocent and your WS was completely guilty of your marriage problems, good luck with your next relationship, because you are going to need it. 
Personally, I prefer to learn from my past and not repeat it.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

survivorwife said:


> True. Like Divorce - the honorable way out of an "unfixable" marriage. Or Counselling if things are fixable. Not cheating. There has to be a line in the sand that both parties agree not to cross - hence the "marriage vows" that both parties agreed to uphold.


Lines in the sand are great, unless you make them on the beach. Morality is subjective and marriage vows have changed over the years. Remember when they said, "obey"? 
I prefer to find a good partner, learn to understand my partner, and rely on each other. Rather than have faith in something written in a book, long ago.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Rookie, do you not think there needs to be a clear boundary line regarding cheating?


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

jld said:


> Russell, cheating is never justified. I don't think Rookie is saying it is. He is just trying to look at what he could have done differently.
> 
> Ans survivorwife is right. The vows are the line in the sand, the Do Not Enter zone of marriage.


I have said that in just about every post, but Russell apparently doesn't get it.
Russell, Infidelity is bad and cannot be justified, I admit this. However, we BS's have to assume 50% of the blame for our marital issues, and Some of those issues are our partners wants and needs.
I am not looking to bust anybody's chops. I simply think that all WS are not ogres and all BS are not angels. And, it is much better to consider our partners wants and needs, than the alternatives. Divorce, adultery or a marriage that is a living hell.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

jld said:


> Rookie, do you not think there needs to be a clear boundary line regarding cheating?


Of course. What I'm saying is that you cannot depend on a written promise, if you don't work to make that promise a reality.


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## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

*Sv: Unmet Needs !*

My wife really need the walls to be painted yellow, she just can't exist without yellow all around . I refuse to paint them yellow because yellow is the color of... Well, betrayal, and it reminds me of some unpleasant stuff.
So what you're basically saying Rookie, is that I should now expect to be betrayed, and rightfully so?


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> So what would you call it, when you don't know what the person closest to you is feeling? You really had no clue that anything at all was happening, even now can you look back and see the signs? So you got the ILYBINILWY, and you think that is normal? That is just about the biggest red flag, ever.


I knew it wasn't normal, but since I was getting half the story, and when I asked if she had a boyfriend, she lied and said no.. I wasn't aware of the extent of what was happening. She took advantage of my trust and my good will. She played me. I was clueless, yes. I'm obviously not quite as clued in as you are. You have 20/20 hindsight.

So did your wife cheat on you? I don't know your full story, but it sounds like you were totally aware of what was going on and nothing was pulled over on you. Am I missing something?


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

*Re: Sv: Unmet Needs !*



cpacan said:


> My wife really need the walls to be painted yellow, she just can't exist without yellow all around . I refuse to paint them yellow because yellow is the color of... Well, betrayal, and it reminds me of some unpleasant stuff.
> So what you're basically saying Rookie, is that I should now expect to be betrayed, and rightfully so?


Read my posts, Dude. I never said anything like that. You are putting your own spin on my words.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

jld said:


> Russell, cheating is never justified. I don't think Rookie is saying it is. He is just trying to look at what he could have done differently.
> 
> Ans survivorwife is right. The vows are the line in the sand, the Do Not Enter zone of marriage.


Rookie is saying that I was clueless because I didn't see signs my wife was cheating, and that I can't see in hindsight what I did to make her cheat... I know exactly what he is saying, I don't need you to clarify.


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## Mrs_Mathias (Nov 19, 2012)

cpacan said:


> My wife really need the walls to be painted yellow, she just can't exist without yellow all around . I refuse to paint them yellow because yellow is the color of... Well, betrayal, and it reminds me of some unpleasant stuff.
> So what you're basically saying Rookie, is that I should now expect to be betrayed, and rightfully so?


No I don't think he's saying that at all. But, if yellow represented a fundamental need for her and an opposing fundamental need for you, then you could expect that you would not have a successful relationship together because neither of you is able to meet each other's fundamental needs without directly going against one of your own.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

so you are saying that the color of the walls is worth this amount of hassle? Paint the f**king things yellow, who give a sh*t.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

*Re: Sv: Unmet Needs !*



cpacan said:


> My wife really need the walls to be painted yellow, she just can't exist without yellow all around . I refuse to paint them yellow because yellow is the color of... Well, betrayal, and it reminds me of some unpleasant stuff.
> So what you're basically saying Rookie, is that I should now expect to be betrayed, and rightfully so?


Jump through that hoop, because when she cheats.. they'll say you didn't listen to her when she told you she was unhappy and that's why she cheated. Of course if you paint the wall yellow, they'll say she cheated because you're too beta and should have painted the wall the color you liked. Either way, it'll be your fault, you will have pushed them into it regardless of what you choose. Good luck.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Funny story, Cpacan. Years ago, my ex wife wanted a new car. She brought home a Mercedes for a test drive. The f**king car was PINK!! It was the ugliest car I have ever seen. But she loved it and wanted it bad. Now, I could have put my foot down and told her to get something else. But why bother? She was the one who had to drive it. She always remembered that car and would tell all of her friends how wonderful I was to get it for her.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

russell28 said:


> I knew it wasn't normal, but since I was getting half the story, and when I asked if she had a boyfriend, she lied and said no.. I wasn't aware of the extent of what was happening. She took advantage of my trust and my good will. She played me. I was clueless, yes. I'm obviously not quite as clued in as you are. You have 20/20 hindsight.
> 
> So did your wife cheat on you? I don't know your full story, but it sounds like you were totally aware of what was going on and nothing was pulled over on you. Am I missing something?


Nope, I was just as clueless. That's why I added the BTDT.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

russell28 said:


> I knew it wasn't normal, but since I was getting half the story, and when I asked if she had a boyfriend, she lied and said no.. I wasn't aware of the extent of what was happening. She took advantage of my trust and my good will. She played me. I was clueless, yes. I'm obviously not quite as clued in as you are. You have 20/20 hindsight.
> 
> So did your wife cheat on you? I don't know your full story, but it sounds like you were totally aware of what was going on and nothing was pulled over on you. Am I missing something?


You should read my story, sometime. It is just about the most complete marital f**up you could imagine. A synopsis: My marriage was bad, real bad, and even though neither I nor my wife realized it, we were heading for divorce. She cheated on me for about a month, then I caught her. I divorced her so fast the ink didn't dry. I didn't see or talk to her (except for kid things) for 2 1/2 years. During that time. she went to IC and worked extremely hard to make herself a better person, and we tried to reconnect romantically, for several months, but the spark wasn't there on my part. Now, we are BOTH better people and have a real good friendship.


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## survivorwife (May 15, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> Lines in the sand are great, unless you make them on the beach. Morality is subjective and marriage vows have changed over the years. Remember when they said, "obey"?
> I prefer to find a good partner, learn to understand my partner, and rely on each other. Rather than have faith in something written in a book, long ago.


The vows I took with my spouse on the date of the marriage were not subjective, they were absolute. Those vows I intended to keep "for better or worse...forsaking all others". The word "obey" was not the vows we took. 

Morality might be subjective to some people who want to make excuses and look for an opening. I am sometimes guilty of seeking the "grey area" to justify my actions. Fidelity, however is not a "grey area" but an absolute.

And yes, I too would want to be with a partner whose values and morality were on the same wave length as my own. One cannot expect a relationship to last if both partners can't agree on principals (morals) and treat each other with respect and dignity. Cheating is neither respectful nor dignified. And to dismiss words in a book simply because it was written long ago is simply justifying new choices based on the world today; which would suggest that you were trying to justify infidelity because (1) everyone does it eventually or (2) the BS deserved it or (3) the WS made up crap (rewrote history) in order to ease their guilty conscious. 

Some things are just simple truths. Fidelity. 1000 years or today. "Forsaking all others" It really is that simple.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> I agree, but a lot of posters seem to think that the WS is evil and the BS is saintly. That affairs are hatched out of the blue. The WS simply got up one morning and decided to cheat? Bull****!!! You will find very, very few WS who are sociopathic to that extent. Most affairs are like a pot of coffee, they have been brewing for quite some time. Let me give you an example.
> I used to know a guy who cheated on his wife. After having two kids, she "let herself go" and gained a lot of weight. Now in other aspects, she was a good mother and good wife, but he no longer found her sexually attractive and began to look at other, younger women. They would have fights all of the time. He would ask her to lose weight and go to the gym, she would say that she had given him two wonderful kids and he should be happy with that, and that she couldn't find the time . They were at cross purposes, and it became a battle of wills. Long story , short, he got caught and they divorced. NOW, she goes to the gym and looks great. It seems like she found the time, only after the marriage was over. He told me recently that if she had tried a little , he would never have cheated. I told him that didn't excuse what he did, but that they shouldn't have take each other for granted and tried to work their differences out together. This is how affairs get started, not some mythical, black and white scenerio.


So?? If she refused to consider his needs, improve herself, etc., then he had the free will to ask her for a D....THEN go looking for a replacement woman.

It sounds like SHE got the better end of the deal: she got rid of a man who lacked the moral and emotional backbone to:

1. follow through with his marriage vows (for better or for worse) or 

2.make the difficult decision to openly and legally dissolve his marriage commitment. He wanted his cake and eat it too.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

survivorwife said:


> The vows I took with my spouse on the date of the marriage were not subjective, they were absolute. Those vows I intended to keep "for better or worse...forsaking all others". The word "obey" was not the vows we took.
> 
> Morality might be subjective to some people who want to make excuses and look for an opening. I am sometimes guilty of seeking the "grey area" to justify my actions. Fidelity, however is not a "grey area" but an absolute.
> 
> ...


 I would be very careful about those absolutes, if I were you. Moral absolutes have been used to do all sorts of despicable things. Also, marriage vows are extremely subjective and are as different as there are different cultures.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> So?? If she refused to consider his needs, improve herself, etc., then he had the free will to ask her for a D....THEN go looking for a replacement woman.
> 
> It sounds like SHE got the better end of the deal: she got rid of a man who lacked the moral and emotional backbone to:
> 
> ...


I agree, but that isn't the issue, is it? EVERYBODY agrees that he made a crappy decision, what I'm illustrating is that we, as spouses, need to consider our partners wants, needs and feelings. What kind of marriage do you have, if both partners think only of themselves? My friend cannot justify his cheating, but he IS allowed to have an opinion. His wife did NOT deserve to be cheated on, but she could have made an effort to better herself. This is what I said about distinguishing between marital issues and fidelity issues. Both of them failed as spouses, but his was worse.


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## survivorwife (May 15, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> I would be very careful about those absolutes, if I were you. Moral absolutes have been used to do all sorts of despicable things. Also, marriage vows are extremely subjective and are as different as there are different cultures.


Excuse me? Let me narrow things down for you. I'm talking specifically about marriage. The absolutes of the wedding vows taken on the date of the marriage by two people who were compatible "culturally" on the date of said marriage which address fidelity. There is no ambiguity. It is (or was) what it was.

And I would be careful not to lose my ability to know the difference between what is right and what is wrong, if I were you.

We could chat about cultures, traditions and history if you like, but that is an entirely different topic than what (I think) we are addressing. I know that some threads "morph" in various directions, but it is not my intention to have my comments misdirected into something that they are not addressing at all.

Just so we understand each other.


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## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

*Sv: Re: Unmet Needs !*



Mrs_Mathias said:


> No I don't think he's saying that at all. But, if yellow represented a fundamental need for her and an opposing fundamental need for you, then you could expect that you would not have a successful relationship together because neither of you is able to meet each other's fundamental needs without directly going against one of your own.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thankyou for getting my point. I don't subscribe to the emotional needs thinking. Color choice is what I would categorize as a want, not a need.
Maybe I should take rookies advice, paint the walls, build resentment and finally cheat because I finally found the justification to do it.
For the record, the example was fictional


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

survivorwife said:


> Excuse me? Let me narrow things down for you. I'm talking specifically about marriage. The absolutes of the wedding vows taken on the date of the marriage by two people who were compatible "culturally" on the date of said marriage which address fidelity. There is no ambiguity. It is (or was) what it was.
> 
> And I would be careful not to lose my ability to know the difference between what is right and what is wrong, if I were you.
> 
> ...


Apparently, considering the divorce rate, most people who take these vows , haven't a clue what they are agreeing to.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Have to go make some donuts, how about a little harmony? "Twelve Thirty" The Mamas & The Papas - YouTube


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## Ripper (Apr 1, 2014)

I was blindsided. Didn't see it coming. No complaints, no drop off in sex, no attitude changes, no attempts to communicate a problem, absolutely nothing. After D-day it was begging, pleading, and all that jazz. After the divorce, I was stalked by her for years. 

Sound like someone who wasn't getting their needs met?

Before infidelity, I'm all ears. Lay your "unmet needs" on me and we will work them out.

Post infidelity, you can cram them up your @ss. My supposed "neglect" will never approach the level of damage your betrayal caused. 

Besides, its not like I was getting three blowjobs a day. I've lived with that "unmet need" my entire life.


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## Centurions (Jan 31, 2013)

Interesting thread! Rookie has some strong points--many relationship issues and dynamics do weigh in as more important, more relevant, than formal vows said long ago. A marriage may not survive if one is going to rely solely on "vows". I can see how many marriages relying on said "vows" could be draining, sad, frustrating, and unfulfilling. Vows alone are not going to make the marriage *work*.

However, even in the absence of cheating, physical abuse, or chronic drug/alcohol abuse, there are a dozen and more things that a spouse can resent you for, and use to justify them cheating. 

You work too much
You're not home enough
You're unemployed
It's taking too long for you to get your degrees
You don't help enough with housework
You don't sex me enough

On and on. It can be virtually anything. How do you ever figure out which is actually enough to satisfy the resentful, cheating spouse? It can always be something, and no matter how sincere you are, your efforts may still be not enough. And in such, essentially you are always against a wall, if you don't do x, y, or z, well, then your spouse is going to get resentful and cheat on you. At some point, the vows either mean something--or they don't. Either you can trust each other to remain faithful to your vows, or you can't.

It seems like a dichotomy. If your vows can't be trusted--not just when everything is sweetness and unicorns--but also when it rains, when you're weak and struggling--then what is the point of being married?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mrs_Mathias (Nov 19, 2012)

russell28 said:


> Thing is, they really didn't care about the room being painted, they just wanted an excuse to cheat.. and you were confused because the room looked fine, that's why you didn't paint it. It was also confusing the 'paint the room' talks that came out of nowhere, *when the room seemed okay to me.*
> 
> So perhaps the spouse needed to communicate that the room being a color that made them uncomfortable was the issue, more details, more information. Perhaps if they mention that the guy in work says he likes the same color and would have painted the room for her...
> 
> ...


Russell inadvertantly hit on something that I think can be important when discussing the marital issue of unmet needs. (I WILL STATE *AGAIN* THAT NOTHING JUSTIFIES OR CAUSES SOMEONE TO DESERVE BEING CHEATED ON. This is a discussion of unmet needs, and for the sake of argument - even though some of you believe this is an impossibility - let's say those needs were clearly discussed PRIOR to any involvement with a third party in any way.)

I think many spouses honestly believe they are meeting their partner's needs for the most part, and even when something is brought to their attention, they believe they have addressed it, when what they perceive as fulfilling the need may not resonate with the spouse in that same way.

A great example from my own past - when Matt and I were first married we recently had changed apartments. There was a decorative curtain rod for our guest room that did not get hung. I left it lay on a futon and then in the corner of the room for months. Matt asked for it to be hung as a Christmas present. I laughed and said sure. Then I didn't hang it and bought him a gift. He asked for it to be hung for Valentine's Day. I laughed and agreed again. And didn't hang it, and bought him a "real" gift instead. He asked that I hang it for his birthday... and you get the picture. I couldn't fathom that THAT was what he really wanted as a gift. That doing a basic "chore" would show as much love and thoughtfulness as spending time choosing a gift that I thought he would use and enjoy. And after asking and asking, he hung it himself and I thought nothing of it until came up in an argument later about how I never listen to him and what he wants. I THOUGHT I was showing real love and care by choosing presents for him, I wasn't trying to disregard his wish - I just thought he was kidding, and that it couldn't be what he would really want, because I would never choose that. I believed I was fundamentally expressing love and care with my choice of gifts, and it didn't resonate that way with Matt.

So in Russell's example, when she wants the living room painted and the partner doesn't see anything wrong with the living room, and she asks again, and he paints the shed instead, what she perceives is that what she wants doesn't matter to him, even when she expresses that. And he perceives no reason to paint the living room, because it's fine as it is, but by painting the shed he is showing her his care. It's a classic demonstrative communication issue where both spouses feel like they have "communicated" and are in agreement but their actions don't show that to their partner because they are interpreting them from WITHIN, rather than looking at them through their spouse's eyes.

It was really hard for me to grasp that my folding laundry or cooking dinner made Matt feel loved. And it was hard for Matt to grasp how important hearing "I love you" is to me, when he feels that saying it often makes it less valuable and his actions around the house show it instead. 

So a couple could easily have a conversation about needing more "affection" (to choose one of the primary needs as laid out by Dr. Harley) but both go about providing it in a way that doesn't resonate with the spouse. So even though the person being asked for more affection has upped the amount of housework they do, for example, the person asking may need more physical touch, or whatever. So the asking spouse feels unheard, and the asked spouse feels like they have worked to improve. That small difference in perception can sometimes account for spouses who feel "blindsided" when a spouse expresses discontent in a marriage.


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## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

Centurions said:


> Interesting thread! Rookie has some strong points--many relationship issues and dynamics do weigh in as more important, more relevant, than formal vows said long ago. A marriage may not survive if one is going to rely solely on "vows". I can see how many marriages relying on said "vows" could be draining, sad, frustrating, and unfulfilling. Vows alone are not going to make the marriage *work*.
> 
> However, even in the absence of cheating, physical abuse, or chronic drug/alcohol abuse, there are a dozen and more things that a spouse can resent you for, and use to justify them cheating.
> 
> ...


That's the point Russell is trying to make, i believe: You can't know, because it will change to fit the situation. Many/most? disloyal spouses need to justify their hurtfull actions in order to reconcile their actions with their values and perception of them selves (reduction of cognitive dissonance).

Therefore; rationalization and justification after the fact is very common.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> I would be very careful about those absolutes, if I were you. Moral absolutes have been used to do all sorts of despicable things. Also, marriage vows are extremely subjective and are as different as there are different cultures.


I think we are talking about the vows that assume fidelity.. 

Describe some despicable things that were done because a spouse remained faithful to the partner or divorced, please.

My marriage vows didn't read as very subjective to me.. I thought they were pretty absolute. I didn't see any 'if you feel like it' or 'as long as you are happy' type of clauses in mine.


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## TimeHeals (Sep 26, 2011)

russell28 said:


> I think we are talking about the vows that assume fidelity..
> 
> Describe some despicable things that were done because a spouse remained faithful to the partner or divorced, please.
> 
> My marriage vows didn't read as very subjective to me.. I thought they were pretty absolute. I didn't see any 'if you feel like it' or 'as long as you are happy' type of clauses in mine.


That's assuming you had some kind of religious ceremony or something, but that's not the legally binding part of the contract 

The contract is essentially a partnership (financially) that presumes monagamy (unless your are a Mormon fundamentalist or something).

Evenif you look at it from a purely business perspective, the last thing you want is a partner who jeopardizes joint assets and who is lying to you all of the time and not working toward the same core goal.

Cheating, in my book, is forgivable, but ... I wouldn't remain partners with that person because they have proven they don't have similar values. End of story.


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## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

Is this discussion going to eventually veer toward those who have an "unmet need" for a faithful, stable spouse?

Maybe the "unmet need" for a spouse that can look at their grown kids and tell them how much it has meant to have had a faithful marriage?

Eh, boring. smiley thing.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

Circle Jerk | Know Your Meme



> The echo chamber effect[10] refers to a phenomenon that occurs when people are isolated in social circles that confirm personal biases, beliefs and ideologies. Online, the phenomenon became amplified after transitioning from BBS sites to social networking communities in the late 2000s, where users and algorithms could curate what feeds they followed based on their own interests and biases. The effect has often been criticized for allowing false information to spread without being challenged and creating barrier in communication between those who share differing opinions.






> *Circlejerk*
> Sometimes used to describe an internet forum thread where forum members all give each other kudos (Or rep where a rep system is present) for some non-event that has occurred.





> a pompous, self-congratulatory discussion where little to no progress is made.




serious link

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Echo_chamber_(media)




> Participants in online communities may find their own opinions constantly echoed back to them, which reinforces their individual belief systems. This can create significant barriers to critical discourse within an online medium


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## TryingToRecover (Dec 19, 2012)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> There is a legitimate concern that the CWI forum will not tolerate a serious discussion about how unmet needs can drive someone to cheat, or how someone's decision to cheat coincided with gross neglect of the BS.
> 
> Not so sure about what is typical for TAM because a number of the infidelity stories are crazy, but IRL it seems like most cases of infidelity follow something like this:
> 
> ...


I can guarantee 110% my WS did NOT broach ANYTHING with me regarding our marital problems pre and during affair. Not one thing. Even once I became aware of what was going on with him and his AP. Even when he knew I knew some information regarding his cheating, he continued to adamantly deny the affair and also told me numerous times he was not unhappy with me nor did he have any major problems/issues/concerns with our relationship. Of course, once I exposed their affair it was a much different story he was telling.

So yah, not every WS is victim to trying to address marital problems with no care and concern in response from their horrible BS. I knew and came right out and told him our marriage was messed up 12 ways to Sunday. I knew by that time I needed to get my own butt to IC to start dealing with my depression. However, my WS was too busy trying to ride the office bicycle to care about dealing with anything in real life. 

I can't profess to know everything in the entire universe but I know my husband and I know what was taking place at that time....and I know he didn't say squat to me about problems or unhappiness.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TryingToRecover (Dec 19, 2012)

TryingToRecover said:


> I can guarantee 110% my WS did NOT broach ANYTHING with me regarding our marital problems pre and during affair. Not one thing. Even once I became aware of what was going on with him and his AP. Even when he knew I knew some information regarding his cheating, he continued to adamantly deny the affair and also told me numerous times he was not unhappy with me nor did he have any major problems/issues/concerns with our relationship. Of course, once I exposed their affair it was a much different story he was telling.
> 
> So yah, not every WS is victim to trying to address marital problems with no care and concern in response from their horrible BS. I knew and came right out and told him our marriage was messed up 12 ways to Sunday. I knew by that time I needed to get my own butt to IC to start dealing with my depression. However, my WS was too busy trying to ride the office bicycle to care about dealing with anything in real life.
> 
> ...


Additionally, he could not have cared less about any of my unmet needs at that point. The weight of the world was on our family's shoulders at that point. I was a messed up mess trying to deal with it all, he had his head up his a** trying to woo/screw his coworker. I would have LOVED for him to tell me what was on his mind prior to the affair. Maybe, just maybe, there was a slim chance we could have prevented the mess. Or if he had just divorced me and then found someone else. Instead we spent the last 2 of the requisite 2-5 years of recovery from an affair. 

He didn't speak up, even with my multiple attempts to get him to communicate honestly. I'm not perfect so therefore I can't be expected to add "potential WS mind reader" to the list of things I need to do to improve my portion of the marital problems. 

Sorry, this thread is very triggery for me. It seems like when it all comes down to it, people still want to make the BS out to be the real and sole reason for the cheating. I know I also did things that were wrong in our marriage but I'm not to blame for a choice he made. However, it makes me sad to wonder if most WS's really do believe that. When it comes down to it anyway.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

survivorwife said:


> Fascinating isn't it. The cheater's view. Let's recap that one. She was a good wife and mother. It takes time and effort to be both. Except she gained some weight, and that, my friends, is the reason the cheater gives for cheating. He fought her about her weight. Did he offer to take over chores so she could free up some time to exercise? Was he supportive and understanding? They fought, but did they talk? Communicate? Did he tell her was going to cheat if she didn't lose a few pounds?
> 
> And then the cheater has the utter nerve to comment on her current appearance now that she has lost weight and dumped him, and proclaims that he would not have cheated if she made the effort before?
> 
> ...


We have no idea what happened in this example. I have no tolerance for cheating, and it pisses me off to hear about it. In fact, seeing that Rookie's friend cheated over a few extra lbs - if that is what it was all about - is pretty stupid. But in reality, we know very little about what happened. Simply proclaiming the cheater defective and the BS a purely innocent victim in this is overly simplistic. In most of these stories on TAM, we rarely get the whole story.

Here is what I don't get. If the wife in the example refused to take better care of herself because she had no time, then how can she find all this time now after being a single parent. I get that if there is shared custody that it gives you some free time. But in reality it's hard to use the gym alone to get into shape when your free time is not consistent. Bottom line, is that she really did have the free time to take better care of herself. On top of that, if she was so secure in her current weight prior to her XWS stepping out on her, then why isn't she content to maintain that current weight now? What changed? Her WH did her a terrible wrong. So WHY did she make herself a hot trim little thing again because of his cheating?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I guess she was happy he left. It gave her new vigor.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

russell28 said:


> He would have found some other excuse.. he got caught, and he used his wifes weight problem as his reason for being an ahole. You also fell for it.. yea, it was all her. She got fat, so she pretty much deserved to be treated poorly. He did tell her she was fat after all.. and unattractive. He sounds like he was pretty much the perfect spouse, and she was a monster. Excellent example


OK, substitute a lack of intimacy for the weight problem then. Don't get hung up on what the reason is. Look at it for what it is: She no longer did something in the marriage that was important to him. He talked to her about it and she told him - basically - "there is no problem". She takes a giant sh!t on his concerns. He reaches his limit and elects to cheat. Of couse he fvcked up and cheated on her instead of trying to work on it or divorce if it got to be too much. He escaped reality thru cheating instead. The end result was the same - divorce.

So why did it take infidelity and a divorce for the wife to now decide that she WANTS to look like a nice young tight MILF??? Why not do it when her husband first broached the subject before he cheated? That's what I don't get in this scenario. If she was truly in the right and the WH was such a scoundrel and sh!thead who would have found some other excuse to cheat, why did she hit the gym hardcore? To make your marriage, this stuff needs to flow both ways. I guess I see the cheating as being part of a larger context - the destruction of a marriage that didn't have to take place if BOTH spouses were willing to work at their marriage.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

jld said:


> I guess she was happy he left. It gave her new vigor.


I don't know if you meant that to be a throwaway line or not. But doesn't that seem pretty bad on her part? I mean, she could make herself look nice and trim for some new guy to come, but she couldn't take the time to do it for her then husband? Or if she truly was happy that he left, then why would she have ever gotten so upset at him about the cheating in the first place? She let herself go because she didn't care enough about her husband to want to look nice for him? 

I'm not trying to be a d!ck with these questions. My point is equally applicable to both WS's and BS's: why does it take a catastrophe for some people to make improvements in their lives that should have been done from the start in order to keep and grow a strong marriage? Why does it have to come to cheating, divorce or financial hardship before changes are made?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Plan, I don't think she wanted to be with him. He was not inspiring her. 

She was probably mad at first because it was shocking and hurtful. But she decided to take her lemon and make lemonade.

I know, you don't think she was being very responsible. And he was not honorable. Unfortunately, we see a lot of that in people. Anything goes anymore. 

That said, it sounds like they are both happier away from each other. Maybe they have apologized to each other for not being what each other needed. I think that would be healing for two people in that situation.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> Yes, every couple talks about things. I'm sure almost all couples have had discussions where one or both are not happy about specific issues. Yet how many actually do something about it? Communication is great. But what if the message is not received, or if it is received the other spouse thinks "everything is fine" and chooses to do nothing? This explains the examples I've seen IRL.
> 
> Now am I saying that it's OK to cheat? NO. I think these are reasons why a WS can choose to cheat though - as an escape.


 Again this is a blindness - chooses to cheat .........as an escape. That right there is a 'reason' to cheat. It IS okay because you chose to do nothing .........so INSTEAD of leaving - I'll cheat instead 

I have to ask - Why is it that you do not or refuse to see that rather obvious point ?



Plan 9 from OS said:


> Just a thought, but I think in most cases the unhappy spouse isn't looking to cheat but is taken thru a gateway that ends towards cheating. Withdrawing from the marriage and either engaging in new games on social media, finding new hobbies to do with others and even going out more with friends can be gateways to cheating. I think many don't intend to go down the path but they do after realizing that it's nice to get deeper intimacy if it's been lacking in the marriage for awhile.


So when is it that they do decide to go down that path because of course at some point they do actually CHOOSE to do that and go down THAT path 



Plan 9 from OS said:


> Again, I don't condone cheating as a solution to problems in the marriage. But it makes sense to try to piece together how and why things went so terribly wrong in the first place.


Obviously but that has little to do with choosing either splitting up or cheating


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

Headspin said:


> Again this is a blindness - chooses to cheat .........as an escape. That right there is a 'reason' to cheat. It IS okay because you chose to do nothing .........so INSTEAD of leaving - I'll cheat instead
> 
> I have to ask - Why is it that you do not or refuse to see that rather obvious point ?
> 
> ...


I understand things perfectly fine. Just because I can see why a spouse might choose to cheat, it doesn't mean that I condone or justify it. I thought that was obvious since I repeatedly stated that I don't support cheating in any way.

ETA: I get that you are exasperated with me because you think some of my points are pretty obvious. I get it. But look around you IRL and on TAM. There are a slew of threads where WS's, BS's and even other spouses who have problems unrelated to infidelity fail to do the obvious things and yet ask why their marriages aren't doing so hot. Maybe in reality, a lot of things aren't so obvious to people.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Interesting debate 

For myself much of it stems from the response, the 'timing' of it of the claim to have had a need that was 'unmet '

"Unmet needs" for me personally represents 'backdated resentment' 

That's how my marriage foundered according to her anyway. This 'resentment' was a bit of a Pandora's box for her, having started the slippery slope, dday one, suddenly all manner of backdated resentments / accusations were up for grabs as justification

"you made me work part time"! 

Eh? - when ?

14 years ago when we moved to London for 6 months !!! 

Whaaat ?!

But we'd only just met and you were euphorically happy and in love with me / with each other?

"That's not the point " You made me work part time because your' work was low" !!! 

Heey but now it's 2012 so wtfk has that to do with anything?

"See and that's the kind of attitude about it that lead me to have to do what I 've done" !! 

.............Uuurgh :scratchhead:

I look back on that and ascertain that the 'unmet need' there was that she desired to not work at all - had to do a part time job ( btw we are talking 12-16 fking hrs a week !!) and so by the time we got to 2008 and she fancied someone she couldn't resist and so the best justification she could come up with was that!!

...Oh and apparently our marriage to that point had been "mostly brilliant"....according to her


I laugh about it now


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> I understand things perfectly fine. Just because I can see why a spouse might choose to cheat, it doesn't mean that I condone or justify it. I thought that was obvious since I repeatedly stated that I don't support cheating in any way.


Mmm but some things like what you said there to me anyway don't add up 

Sorry but to me they don't


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Trouble is a lot of this comes back to whether as a wayward you simply should have put your hands up, said you were unhappy so deeply that you had to finish the marriage / relationship and that was it it was finished over and done 

THIS is the sticking point 

I often hear about "the difficulty" "the complications" of how impossible it is to actually finish with someone and that bit for me is 95% utter rubbish. If you are that unhappy you should finish - end of - kids, houses, money etc it's immaterial - DONT CHEAT

The moment now, especially after the last few weeks reading on here, I hear "unmet needs" it more often than not means 'excuses'


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Okay just to lighten up a bit I now recognize I have an "unmet need".......it's called sleep 

(so...... rather than er be married and go out find a shag and cheat )

................. I'm simply going to go to bed 

G'nite


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

Headspin said:


> Mmm but some things like what you said there to me anyway don't add up
> 
> Sorry but to me they don't


I'm not sure what you mean by that, except for perhaps you assumed that I was justifying cheating in certain situations. I don't btw, but I try to see why a WS would come to the conclusion that cheating is a viable option. Anyways, have a great night of slumber.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> OK, substitute a lack of intimacy for the weight problem then. Don't get hung up on what the reason is. Look at it for what it is: She no longer did something in the marriage that was important to him. He talked to her about it and she told him - basically - "there is no problem". She takes a giant sh!t on his concerns. He reaches his limit and elects to cheat. Of couse he fvcked up and cheated on her instead of trying to work on it or divorce if it got to be too much. He escaped reality thru cheating instead. The end result was the same - divorce.
> 
> So why did it take infidelity and a divorce for the wife to now decide that she WANTS to look like a nice young tight MILF??? Why not do it when her husband first broached the subject before he cheated? That's what I don't get in this scenario. If she was truly in the right and the WH was such a scoundrel and sh!thead who would have found some other excuse to cheat, why did she hit the gym hardcore? To make your marriage, this stuff needs to flow both ways. I guess I see the cheating as being part of a larger context - the destruction of a marriage that didn't have to take place if BOTH spouses were willing to work at their marriage.


Exactly my point. The marital issues did NOT lead to infidelity, but fostered an atmosphere of conflict, for which both parties bear responsibility.


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## BetrayedAgain7 (Apr 27, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> He told me recently that if she had tried a little , he would never have cheated.


And maybe if he had COMMUNICATED with her the fact that her weight gain and being unfit was a marital DEAL BREAKER for him, maybe she WOULD have lost the weight! 

In your example he never told her that if she didn't shape up he was going to ship out did he?

Was she given the chance to make that choice? 

No, she wasn't. 

Sorry, no UNMET need there then! 

I'm all ears for another example at excusing a cheater.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

jld said:


> Plan, I don't think she wanted to be with him. He was not inspiring her.
> 
> She was probably mad at first because it was shocking and hurtful. But she decided to take her lemon and make lemonade.
> 
> ...


You would think that now they both would be happier, wouldn't you, but that is not the situation. He (the WS) is a wreck, and is always depressed, while she is toned, trim, and dates younger men.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> You would think that now they both would be happier, wouldn't you, but that is not the situation. He (the WS) is a wreck, and is always depressed, while she is toned, trim, and dates younger men.


He sees what he lost.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

BetrayedAgain7 said:


> And maybe if he had COMMUNICATED with her the fact that her weight gain and being unfit was a marital DEAL BREAKER for him, maybe she WOULD have lost the weight!
> 
> In your example he never told her that if she didn't shape up he was going to ship out did he?
> 
> ...


I happen to know that he did a lot to help her change her lifestyle. She was a good mother, but he was also a good father. When this occurred, he began to do more chores, ran errands and did most of the work, so she would have the time to go to the gym. But she never took advantage of this, but complained that she didn't have the time and that the reason she was fat was bearing his kids. As if it was his fault. So it became a struggle of wills.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

jld said:


> He sees what he lost.


Absolutely. He has tried to reconcile, and I know he is willing to do anything to get his family back. I know it was his decision to cheat, but if there ever was a remorseful WS it's him. I feel sorry for him, even though I don't condone what he did.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Funny thing, he doesn't even look at other women, now.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> Funny thing, he doesn't even look at other women, now.


Yep. The price was very high.

I hope he will be able to heal and move on someday. The past just has to be learned from and accepted.


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## BetrayedAgain7 (Apr 27, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> I happen to know that he did a lot to help her change her lifestyle. She was a good mother, but he was also a good father. When this occurred, he began to do more chores, ran errands and did most of the work, so she would have the time to go to the gym. But she never took advantage of this, but complained that she didn't have the time and that the reason she was fat was bearing his kids. As if it was his fault. So it became a struggle of wills.


It need never have come to a battle of wills, if only he had told her her weight gain was a deal breaker for him, they wouldn't have had to put each other through so much misery.

Good on him for speaking to her about it and trying to help her change her lifestyle, but if her weight was that important to him enough to cheat on her, it was that important to tell her the WHOLE truth and depth of his feelings about it BEFORE he cheated.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

BetrayedAgain7 said:


> It need never have come to a battle of wills, if only he had told her her weight gain was a deal breaker for him, they wouldn't have had to put each other through so much misery.
> 
> Good on him for speaking to her about it and trying to help her change her lifestyle, but if her weight was that important to him enough to cheat on her, it was that important to tell her the WHOLE truth and depth of his feelings about it BEFORE he cheated.


Dude, I know that and so does he. I'm not condoning what he did, I'm saying that if you don't take care of your partner's needs, it leads to trouble, and that a lot of married people don't have the knowledge to deal with these type of issues.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

If perspective newlyweds were encouraged to learn about marital communications, beforehand, the divorce/ infidelity rates wouldn't be as high as they are.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> Dude, I know that and so does he. I'm not condoning what he did, I'm saying that if you don't take care of your partner's needs, it leads to trouble, and that a lot of married people don't have the knowledge to deal with these type of issues.


I don't think taking off extra weight is a need. It is not the same as her asking him for more conversation or hugs. 

Honestly, I think the guy sounds shallow. I think he did her a favor by having that affair. At least she is happy now.


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## BetrayedAgain7 (Apr 27, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> Dude, I know that and so does he. I'm not condoning what he did, I'm saying that if you don't take care of your partner's needs, it leads to trouble, and that a lot of married people don't have the knowledge to deal with these type of issues.


I'm not a dude, I'm a woman. 

I know you are not condoning what he did, neither am I condoning what his wife did NOT do.

But, if a BS is unaware that a "need" is so serious that the WS will go and cheat because of it, then the BS needs to KNOW that so they then have a choice in the matter. As it is, they don't.

Also if they don't know, then it can't be an "unmet" need can it? 

Which is, as far as I am aware, the whole point of this thread.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

BetrayedAgain7 said:


> I'm not a dude, I'm a woman.
> 
> I know you are not condoning what he did, neither am I condoning what his wife did NOT do.
> 
> ...


That's very interesting, isn't it? The takeaway is that it's not good enough to communicate a need directly, but a serious threat needs to also be delivered along with the communication. 

That makes me come back to an earlier question I had, but no one cared to address it. Why does it take a traumatic event or the threat of a serious life altering decision in order to spur someone on to make changes that they should have been doing from the get go? This goes for both WS's and BS's and even more broadly for regular spouses who don't care to pull their weight in the marriage. 

Let's make a single change to Rookie's example and reexamine it again. Let's say he expressed his need that his wife try to lose weight in order to look more like the woman he fell in love with and felt a strong physical connection to. She trivializes his concerns and gives an excuse that she didn't have enough time. He tries to make more time with her by taking on more and more responsibilities around the house and with the kids to make time for her to take care of herself. She refuses. He gives up and tells her that he can't live like this anymore and divorces her. They split, AND THEN...as a single parent the wife suddenly finds that time to take care of herself. Gets hot and trim and the next guy benefits while her poor ex H did what he could to get her into shape and she fought him tooth and nail. How would you feel in this scenario. Remove the cheating and the wife comes across as a lazy cow who couldn't be bothered to keep the passion and intimacy alive in her marriage, but had no qualms for shooting for the moon to attract younger, hot and trim guys. 

The woman in the example took a sh!t on her marriage just like her old man who cheated. That's how I see it. Because this type of example - sans cheating - is commonly discussed in SIM and GEN, and the woman would come across as an entitled cow who put everyone ahead of her husband - while the husband took on more and more roles around the house with no payoff in sight. Know what the advice would have been from many on those forums? Stop being so beta, get yourself into better shape, start going out and "implying" that some younger, hotter woman could sweep him off his feet and try to make her jealous by him being hit on by other woman IN FRONT OF HER. 

Sometimes...TAM can really take my breath away and make me wonder WTF is wrong with people...


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## BetrayedAgain7 (Apr 27, 2013)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> Let's make a single change to Rookie's example and reexamine it again. Let's say he expressed his need that his wife try to lose weight in order to look more like the woman he fell in love with and felt a strong physical connection to. She trivializes his concerns and gives an excuse that she didn't have enough time. He tries to make more time with her by taking on more and more responsibilities around the house and with the kids to make time for her to take care of herself. She refuses.* He gives up and tells her that he can't live like this anymore and divorces her. *They split, AND THEN...as a single parent the wife suddenly finds that time to take care of herself. Gets hot and trim and the next guy benefits while her poor ex H did what he could to get her into shape and she fought him tooth and nail. How would you feel in this scenario.


He gave up to soon IMO. He should have told her he was going to divorce her UNLESS she lost weight and became the hot woman that he "needs", BEFORE he divorced her. (Although in the example given it was worse, he just went ahead and cheated without telling her)

She would then have had the choice, lose weight or divorce, up to her. 

If his wife still trivialised his need and told him to get lost, she was going to do exactly what she wanted and not lose weight, then fair game, he is entitled, without ANY blame, to set the divorce in motion and go fvck a "hot" woman as is his want. His wife would deserve everything she gets, (if we are talking about a woman who was perfectly capable of doing so, as in the example) no questions asked, AND he would have every right to say that he did it because his needs were unmet and he would be right, they were not.




Plan 9 from OS said:


> *Remove the cheating and the wife comes across as a lazy cow who couldn't be bothered to keep the passion and intimacy alive in her marriage, but had no qualms for shooting for the moon to attract younger, hot and trim guys. *
> 
> The woman in the example took a sh!t on her marriage just like her old man who cheated. That's how I see it. Because this type of example - sans cheating - is commonly discussed in SIM and GEN, and the woman would come across as an entitled cow who put everyone ahead of her husband - while the husband took on more and more roles around the house with no payoff in sight. Know what the advice would have been from many on those forums? Stop being so beta, get yourself into better shape, start going out and "implying" that some younger, hotter woman could sweep him off his feet and try to make her jealous by him being hit on by other woman IN FRONT OF HER.


Yes, remove the cheating before the COMMUNICATION of DEAL BREAKER NEEDS and I totally agree with you.

If a potential WS is not getting their perceived needs met such that they feel a building resentment for, they cannot just simply imply, desperately hope for, believe it is a right because of a marriage vow, prevaricate, or have an expectation of. 

If it really is a deal breaker they need to COMMUNICATE that on a deep level, to the point that the potential BS is left in no doubt what is in store for them IF they don't change their ways. 

The ledger is then fully balanced and both know exactly where they stand.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> ......
> 
> Let's make a single change to Rookie's example and reexamine it again. Let's say he expressed his need that his wife try to lose weight in order to look more like the woman he fell in love with and felt a strong physical connection to. She trivializes his concerns and gives an excuse that she didn't have enough time. He tries to make more time with her by taking on more and more responsibilities around the house and with the kids to make time for her to take care of herself. She refuses. He gives up and tells her that he can't live like this anymore and divorces her.
> 
> ...


Nothing personal Plan9 but that is what I take issue with you about - you say "remove the cheating " and suddenly it means this and that and you say it in a very throwaway mode if you like 

Its not - it's EVERYTHING

If he cheats - it negates his justification or any hint of it. Its not a small thing it's huge.

If he has the courage to do the right thing yes finish it all divorce -the onus the blame sits squarely on her shoulders

That's the point


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I can't believe someone would get a divorce because his wife has gained weight after having children. I am telling you, shallow. 

And she is so much better off without him. The results are obvious.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

jld said:


> I can't believe someone would get a divorce because his wife has gained weight after having children. I am telling you, shallow.
> 
> And she is so much better off without him. The results are obvious.


Thing is though we don't know this story. Course it's shallow but we may not be talking a few pounds here and there which frankly mean little. 

She could have gone on to have big issues and piled on the stones and become very much the antithesis of who he fell in love with.

And if he tried talking counseling everything and ended up plain not physically wanting her any more which would then of course hurt her, then you can see how it can end in divorce. If he got to the point where he ended up being attracted to anyone but her then he's being honest about it. If he got to the point of wanting someone else but would rather divorce than cheat then he's to be commended in my book


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## BetrayedAgain7 (Apr 27, 2013)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> That's very interesting, isn't it? The takeaway is that it's not good enough to communicate a need directly, but a serious threat needs to also be delivered along with the communication.
> 
> That makes me come back to an earlier question I had, but no one cared to address it. *Why does it take a traumatic event or the threat of a serious life altering decision in order to spur someone on to make changes that they should have been doing from the get go? *This goes for both WS's and BS's and even more broadly for regular spouses who don't care to pull their weight in the marriage.


Yes, it is very interesting I agree. Human nature being what it is, the fact that a serious threat needs to be delivered along with the communication of needs, doesn't surprise me in the least. It is what it is and what is the point of wondering why? Who can answer it? 

Maybe it's along the same lines as when an obese person who can't be bothered dieting has a heart attack and is told by their doctor that unless they lose weight they will be dead within a year, suddenly the obese person is able to lose 50kg before the 12 months is up and lives another 20 years. 

Pure, raw motivation I suppose. :scratchhead:


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## Mrs_Mathias (Nov 19, 2012)

jld said:


> I don't think taking off extra weight is a need. It is not the same as her asking him for more conversation or hugs.
> 
> Honestly, I think the guy sounds shallow. I think he did her a favor by having that affair. At least she is happy now.


Actually, according to Dr. Harley, it is. The basic needs , which vary in importance for each individual include:

Affection
Sexual Fulfillment
Conversation
Recreational Companionship
Honesty and Openness
Physical Attractiveness
Financial Support
Domestic Support
Family Commitment
Admiration


So for someone, the need to have an attractive spouse, and in this particular case, to also feel that a spouse cares what you think, can be vital.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Everyone is welcome to have their dealbreakers. If it were my son in this situation, I would tell him to adjust his values. 

Needing a thin wife, at the cost of paying alimony and child support, is worth reconsidering, if you ask me. 

But if my son said that it was worth it to him, then I guess he would do whatever he needed to do. And would have to accept the consequences.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

BetrayedAgain7 said:


> I'm not a dude, I'm a woman.
> 
> I know you are not condoning what he did, neither am I condoning what his wife did NOT do.
> 
> ...


One of the most interesting questions that all of us, who have been affected by infidelity, have to answer is ; " how can we live with someone for years and years and know so little about them?"


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

BetrayedAgain7 said:


> I'm not a dude, I'm a woman.
> 
> I know you are not condoning what he did, neither am I condoning what his wife did NOT do.
> 
> ...


Sorry about that gender thing. I couldn't tell from your avie.


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## Mrs_Mathias (Nov 19, 2012)

jld said:


> Everyone is welcome to have their dealbreakers. If it were my son in this situation, I would tell him to adjust his values.
> 
> Needing a thin wife, at the cost of paying alimony and child support, is worth reconsidering, if you ask me.
> 
> But if my son said that it was worth it to him, then I guess he would do whatever he needed to do. And would have to accept the consequences.


Would you say the same to your son if he said he had no sexual attraction and by extension no sexual satisfaction from his wife? When we choose to date someone, our perception of their physical attractiveness plays a role. Everyone ages, everyone changes, but there are reasonable levels to anticipate as you plan a future with someone. And while it may be shallow to you or I to care what someone looks like on the outside, to someone else it is equally silly to "need" hugs.

To say it's about a "thin" wife is minimizing (ha!) in my opinion. We don't know how much weight she gained, we don't know her relative size before. What would have likely spoken volumes in this particular case would have been attempting to lose weight, rather than the number actual pounds shed.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Would you say the same to your son if he said he had no sexual attraction and by extension no sexual satisfaction from his wife? When we choose to date someone, our perception of their physical attractiveness plays a role. Everyone ages, everyone changes, but there are reasonable levels to anticipate as you plan a future with someone. And while it may be shallow to you or I to care what someone looks like on the outside, to someone else it is equally silly to "need" hugs.
> 
> To say it's about a "thin" wife is minimizing (ha!) in my opinion. We don't know how much weight she gained, we don't know her relative size before. What would have likely spoken volumes in this particular case would have been attempting to lose weight, rather than the number actual pounds shed.


I agree that effort may be important. And again, everyone has their dealbreakers. To each his own.

_Imo,_ a wife gaining weight after childbearing is not grounds for divorce. But my son might see it differently. It is ultimately up to him. But he is very likely going to hear his mother's _opinion._


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## Mrs_Mathias (Nov 19, 2012)

Headspin said:


> *Nothing personal Plan9 but that is what I take issue with you about - you say "remove the cheating " and suddenly it means this and that and you say it in a very throwaway mode if you like
> 
> Its not - it's EVERYTHING
> 
> ...


The problem I have with this from a reconciliation or future relationship perspective, is that it smells of the same entitlement we often see displayed by WS's. 

If someone cheats, it negates all previous marital issues because it's a bigger one? That's not reasonable.

If someone cheats, and IF reconciliation is the goal, then the affair absolutely HAS to be the first thing dealt with. And all of us here know what a monumental task that is. And we also know that the ripple effects of cheating are substantial - it adds incalculable other issues, hurts, and concerns to the BS's experience in the marriage. But, IF a couple is able to work through all of that and come out on the other side, then for the BS to knowingly return to previous behaviors that were hurtful to the WS before the infidelity because they shouldn't have to fix their end since they were cheated on, is tragic and selfish in my opinion.

Just today we have watched this play out to disastrous results for SoulPotato. She has been killing herself for a substantial amount to time to help heal the damage from her EAs. Her partner claims to be in a relationship with her. But every time she expresses concern or personal difficulties, she is met with deflection or denial from her partner. She has communicated over and over that she needs more support, affection, and communication from her partner. They have been in counseling together. She is regularly denied that. When she reached her breaking point, SHE TOLD HER PARTNER that she was struggling with thoughts and feelings regarding her ex-AP. Her partner said she didn't want to discuss it. There was a perfect communicative opportunity to reinforce to SP the importance of maintaining NC, to express the struggles they have faced to reach this point in their relationship, to express that she cares about SP and to help her face this weakness and overcome it. Instead, she abandoned her and SP failed. She broke NC. It is not the BS's responsibility to prevent SP from breaking it, but the BS in this case could have clearly helped her to be strong. SP reached out for that help. It's heartbreaking for both of them.

Even if reconciliation ISN'T the goal, I would hope a BS would want to go forward from the ashes of the previous relationship with a better understanding of themselves and their own weaknesses so they can have a more successful relationship in the future.

It's often said that a WS should be grateful for any scraps the BS gives them. To an extent I agree. I am overwhelmed with gratitude for each moment that I get to spend with my family. It's one of the difficult things right now, that having a positive moment with them can send me into a spiral of depression for all that I have inflicted and damaged. I know how truly fortunate I am for this opportunity to demonstrate the love and care I let lapse for a time. 

But if love means putting someone else's needs before your own, then a BS that stays has to be willing to do that for their WS at some point in the future again. It is reasonable for it to take an extended amount of time to reach that point. I think *any* WS in true R will attest to being willing to wait for their spouse to be able to reciprocate for years, as the healing progresses. I can live on "scraps" for a long time, because I know I caused that response. But I will not spend the rest of my life attempting to exist on scraps. At some point I will run out of reserves and starve to death. If all a BS ever intends to offer their WS is scraps, because they don't "owe" them anything after the affair and the WS should be grateful for that, then the BS needs to leave. That's not a reconciliation, or a relationship. Cheating is wrong, and so is holding a partner in a relationship where you have no intention of actually being a partner to them.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I agree, Mrs M. I think an affair is a symptom of underlying problems, as well as its own problem. And I wish we could get away from just assigning blame, and focusing on it forever.

Both partners have needs in the marriage. For a healthy marriage, most of those must be reasonably met. 

In many ways, it is like starting from scratch after an affair. Transparency and accountability on both sides would surely go a long way to creating a new, healthy partnership.


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## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

*Sv: Re: Unmet Needs !*



jld said:


> I agree, Mrs M. I think an affair is a symptom of underlying problems, as well as its own problem. And I wish we could get away from just assigning blame, and focusing on it forever.
> 
> Both partners have needs in the marriage. For a healthy marriage, most of those must be reasonably met.
> 
> In many ways, it is like starting from scratch after an affair. Transparency and accountability on both sides would surely go a long way to creating a new, healthy partnership.


Have you ever been cheated on, jld?


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## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

*Sv: Unmet Needs !*

I admit that I get slightly uncomfortable with the underlying tone in some of the posts in this thread and a few other threads lately, the tone that suggests that the BS must have done something to deserve the betrayal.
I wonder if this is just the general opinion around.

It makes me rethink the idea that it's possible to make it work with my wife, because if her thought patterns are somewhat similar to this deep inside, I would rather let her go. 

I may be delusional, but three years after, I actually still believe that I was a decent husband and father before her LTA and did nothing to deserve this besides from marrying her.

I admit that I have cut back on some of my contributions to the marriage post affair. I won't bent over backwards to provide and outperform myself when I know it isn't valued.

I see now, that my current contribution may be viewed as nothing more than scraps, well so be it. Time for a change of mind and course, i think.


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## Mrs_Mathias (Nov 19, 2012)

cpacan said:


> I admit that I get slightly uncomfortable with the underlying tone in some of the posts in this thread and a few other threads lately, the tone that suggests that the BS must have done something to deserve the betrayal.
> I wonder if this is just the general opinion around.
> 
> It makes me rethink the idea that it's possible to make it work with my wife, because if her thought patterns are somewhat similar to this deep inside, I would rather let her go.
> ...



Cpacan, I sincerely hope it isn't my posts that have led you to feel this way. I have always respected your input on various threads. Nothing DESERVES betrayal. IMO, your wife is not doing her part in your reconciliation, from what you have described. It is natural in that circumstance to withhold yourself out of self-preservation. That's not scraps. The efforts you are making with her are legitimate, and if she could give you what you need and deserve to feel more connected and safe with her, I don't think you would be holding yourself back because you would know you are valued. I'm sorry after all this time and your efforts that you are still feeling like this. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

*Re: Sv: Unmet Needs !*



cpacan said:


> I admit that I get slightly uncomfortable with the underlying tone in some of the posts in this thread and a few other threads lately, the tone that suggests that the BS must have done something to deserve the betrayal.
> I wonder if this is just the general opinion around.
> 
> It makes me rethink the idea that it's possible to make it work with my wife, because if her thought patterns are somewhat similar to this deep inside, I would rather let her go.
> ...


Not all cheating stories are the same. If you know that you did everything you reasonably could to be a good husband and father, then there should be no regrets. I'm probably one of the posters who is getting under your skin about this. I apologize for that because I'm not trying to upset people. 

I know in my marriage, if my wife cheated on me, I would NEVER feel any guilt nor wonder why she cheated on me. Because I know that I'm a good husband and father to my kids. I would have no regrets about how I handled the marriage prior to her cheating.


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## TryingToRecover (Dec 19, 2012)

*Re: Sv: Unmet Needs !*



cpacan said:


> I admit that I get slightly uncomfortable with the underlying tone in some of the posts in this thread and a few other threads lately, the tone that suggests that the BS must have done something to deserve the betrayal.
> *I wonder if this is just the general opinion around.*
> 
> It makes me rethink the idea that it's possible to make it work with my wife, because if her thought patterns are somewhat similar to this deep inside, I would rather let her go.
> ...


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

This thread all but reminds me I might just be duping myself with trying to R, if this thread is an example of how WS's really view adultery and whose to blame for it, generally speaking. I look at this thread and ones like it, look at all the effort WS has made (and he really has made huge efforts and changes from my POV :scratchhead and then my mind just tells me I might just be bullshatting myself. Maybe I'm just in denial and seeing only what I want to see. After all, he did lie to me and expect me to believe it before, maybe nothing has really changed.

I also believe I have done my part to improve the marriage because we did not have a wonderful marriage pre-affair, and I'm to blame for my part in that. If I discovered that is all viewed as scraps as a general rule.....makes me wonder if I'm just being tricked, like a big Plan B idiot.

2+ years out there are times, not very often anymore, I still feel a little angry and don't feel like making an effort. I don't trigger very often anymore and our relationship has been much more stable, but once in awhile I do feel the resentment come back a bit and it does influence my behavior toward my WS. So those times are big time scraps and perhaps the better and even great days are just run of the mill scraps. 

The underlying tone of this thread does seem to boil down to even though the cheating "isn't the BS's fault," the BS still better be on their better than best behavior to not risk pushing their WS into cheating or back into it.

What it seems to come down to is the person in the relationship who "wins" is the person willing to get some on the side for the sake of unmet needs, a spouse who has gained too much weight, and so on. Never mind those unmet needs and deal breakers were often never communicated. 

Are any of those unmet needs, attention for example, ever examined by a WS to see if they're asking too much? Or is just "dam it, I have this need and you - BS - don't cut it?" The need for attention may be excessive, through the roof but, "dam it, meet MY criteria or I'll find a coworker, in-law, opposite sex friend with bad boundaries, stranger at the bar, best friend's spouse, escort, prostitute, a whatever who will." Or, "maybe my ego is the size of North America but oh well, deal with it successfully, based upon my criteria and demands, or I'm out of here. Well, at least my genitals are out of here, possibly some of the marital funds, but the rest of me will pretend to be all in." Kinda like scraps, or worse.

Please note I'm NOT saying all needs are unreasonable but I do believe they often go unexamined when couples attempt to R.

Also, there are some WS's who leave their BS's and take up with their AP, exit affairs. Statistics say most of those relationships don't last long-term as one or the other or both end up cheating. If the original WS ends up cheating on their original AP turned BS, I guess that BS is just another "less than" who can't meet the needs of their WS, and so on, and so on. So this WS either picks their partners poorly or their needs are sometimes excessive? Nah, it must be the BS's fault. One BS after the other, and the other....not saying all who have cheated are serial cheaters but many are and they always seem to end up complaining about one partner after the other not meeting their needs :scratchhead:

I'm a smart person and know there are spouses out there who aren't working on their marriages and not meeting the needs of their partners. They deserve to be left if all communication and efforts to improve the marriage have been repeatedly ignored. But if some marriages do become that bad, and I agree that many do, then what was an affair going to do to improve the pre-existing situation?


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Mrs_Mathias said:


> The problem I have with this from a reconciliation or future relationship perspective, is that it smells of the same entitlement we often see displayed by WS's.
> 
> If someone cheats, it negates all previous marital issues because it's a bigger one? That's not reasonable.
> 
> ...


A very good post, MM, except for the last paragraph, which you should probably re-think.
You willingly betrayed your husband with more than one AP, if I recall correctly. You were caught or confessed and repented. If your reconciliation is based on the idea that you will exist on "scraps" (very poor choice of words) and be rewarded at some future date, is it true repentance? Is your motivation true remorse for your actions and true love and concern for your husband's wellbeing, or is it a selfish desire to rebuild your own self image? You simply cannot be proactive in reconciliation. It is about emotional suffering, it is NOT investment banking.


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## Mrs_Mathias (Nov 19, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> A very good post, MM, except for the last paragraph, which you should probably re-think.
> You willingly betrayed your husband with more than one AP, if I recall correctly. You were caught or confessed and repented. If your reconciliation is based on the idea that you will exist on "scraps" (very poor choice of words) and be rewarded at some future date, is it true repentance? Is your motivation true remorse for your actions and true love and concern for your husband's wellbeing, or is it a selfish desire to rebuild your own self image? You simply cannot be proactive in reconciliation. It is about emotional suffering, it is NOT investment banking.


Actually, my use of the word scraps was directly from a post on a different thread of similar topic by a BS, describing what WS's deserve and should be grateful for. Not my word. And your facts are incorrect. I had one AP, but multiple D-Days. And when I discuss reconciliation, for me that encompasses far more than helping heal the infidelity injury. It is the full rebuilding of the relationship into a mutually satisfying experience, so I think we differ in our perception of ultimate goal there.

I find it interesting that BS's here are often able to comment on threads from a general standpoint, but when I do the same, my specific affair and reconciliation must be included. And Rookie, if I am successful at helping my husband heal from the devastation of my affair and we rebuild a relationship together, don't I deserve to be "rewarded" with a fully functioning relationship where my happiness is also cared for by my spouse? Is that a "reward"? Or simply a sign of a good relationship?

BS's do nothing to deserve to be cheated on. But is there nothing a WS can do to deserve to be treated with love and respect again at some point in the future?


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Just today we have watched this play out to disastrous results for SoulPotato. She has been killing herself for a substantial amount to time to help heal the damage from her EAs. Her partner claims to be in a relationship with her. But every time she expresses concern or personal difficulties, she is met with deflection or denial from her partner. She has communicated over and over that she needs more support, affection, and communication from her partner. They have been in counseling together. She is regularly denied that. When she reached her breaking point, SHE TOLD HER PARTNER that she was struggling with thoughts and feelings regarding her ex-AP.


I read that. She told her partner etc etc This really disappoints, this kind of thinking. We are all adults - not children. A person has an Ea a PA whatever and they now trying to reconcile but are 'struggling' with thoughts feeling about the OM !! Doesn't sound like reconciling behavior to me? 



Mrs_Mathias said:


> Her partner said she didn't want to discuss it.


And damn well right. You're in reconciliation and your wife breaks NC and goes back to having feelings for OM!! 
Fk that! what is there to talk about. I would'nt want to talk about it - I'd go for the door instead. These are not children. How obvious is it that you do not under any circumstances contact OM. 

Why the sympathy for that Mrs Mathias? Why? Tell me why now how you find that you have sympathy for that ?



Mrs_Mathias said:


> There was a perfect communicative opportunity to reinforce to SP the importance of maintaining NC, to express the struggles they have faced to reach this point in their relationship, to express that she cares about SP and to help her face this weakness and overcome it. Instead, she abandoned her and SP failed. She broke NC. It is not the BS's responsibility to prevent SP from breaking it, but the BS in this case could have clearly helped her to be strong. SP reached out for that help.


Yes lets put the bloody onus on the Betrayed spouse to do all the help to 'heavy lift'. 
This view you have is wrong . End of 

I do appreciate a betrayed spouse looking at their own faults in a marriage that's obvious, but as for in some way finding them at fault when wayward has broken no contact etc etc - Please!



Mrs_Mathias said:


> It's heartbreaking for both of them.


 mmm

It's simple, with this behavior now on the table - they should finish 

__________

In terms of the feeling behind what you say there is a still a sense of entitlement, a sense of it not quite being your fault and even if I see that wrong maybe it is the way many waywards express themselves in these circumstances that they should look at. It more often than not comes across as minimizing and blame shifting.

Has all the aroma of "unmet needs" about it


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## BetrayedAgain7 (Apr 27, 2013)

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Just today we have watched this play out to disastrous results for SoulPotato. She has been killing herself for a substantial amount to time to help heal the damage from her EAs. Her partner claims to be in a relationship with her. But every time she expresses concern or personal difficulties, she is met with deflection or denial from her partner. She has communicated over and over that she needs more support, affection, and communication from her partner. They have been in counseling together. She is regularly denied that. When she reached her breaking point, SHE TOLD HER PARTNER that she was struggling with thoughts and feelings regarding her ex-AP. Her partner said she didn't want to discuss it. There was a perfect communicative opportunity to reinforce to SP the importance of maintaining NC, to express the struggles they have faced to reach this point in their relationship, to express that she cares about SP and to help her face this weakness and overcome it. Instead, she abandoned her and SP failed. She broke NC. It is not the BS's responsibility to prevent SP from breaking it, but the BS in this case could have clearly helped her to be strong. SP reached out for that help. It's heartbreaking for both of them.


I don't pretend to know anything about Soul Potato's relationship as I've never read any of her threads, but if you are using her as an example to make a point then I will too. 

So, from what you have written, it doesn't seem like her partner is into R at all, her partner IS being very insensitive and unkind and I'm not seeing the point in R at all here.

Maybe for SP it's time to call it quits and accept that her partner cannot meet her needs? 

She needs to unequivocally let her partner KNOW that though and COMMUNICATE that she is going to end the relationship and make preparations to leave, so the BS has a chance to really decide what she wants. 

Contacting her AP is weak, cowardly and simply resorting to stealing, lying and cheating all over again. 

What's the point in that? At least the BS, while definitely unkind and insensitive to the partner that she supposedly loves, is being HONEST and FORTHRIGHT in letting SP know where she stands.

Not so for SP, if she is sneaking off and contacting her AP behind her spouse's back. 

I know you said she told her BS she was struggling with thoughts of the AP, but at the point where the BS was insensitive (and I admit, don't understand this if her partner GENUINELY wanted to R) says she didn't want to discuss it, THAT moment is when SP should have accepted that R was not going to happen and then TOLD the BS, that if that was the case then she (SP) was GOING to contact her AP and leave the relationship, because the BS could apparently NEVER meet her needs.

The WS doesn't need to be a beaten down, weak puppy in R.

I would despise my WS if he was like that. He knows my boundaries and he sticks to them like glue. Other than that he is his own authentic, working-on-himself-and-getting-stronger, man. 

I love him for that.


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## Mrs_Mathias (Nov 19, 2012)

Headspin said:


> I read that. She told her partner etc etc This really disappoints, this kind of thinking. We are all adults - not children. A person has an Ea a PA whatever and they now trying to reconcile but are 'struggling' with thoughts feeling about the OM !! Doesn't sound like reconciling behavior to me?
> 
> 
> And damn well right. You're in reconciliation and your wife breaks NC and goes back to having feelings for OM!!
> ...



SP has BPD. She will likely always need reinforcement to help with her decisions if she is going to have a successful relationship. I have sympathy for her because she asked for help, she confessed, before breaking NC, that she was starting to have thoughts of AP. It's exactly the communication that has been mentioned by OPs in this thread. She was in reconciliation and her partner shut her out. I sympathize because I have read her struggles prior to this incident, and how hard she has worked to improve her mental health and become a better person and a better partner. If you have any knowledge of their situation , you would know that she has been doing the heavy lifting, no question.

And I specifically said it's not her BS's responsibility to keep her from breaking NC.

WS's have to do the heavy lifting in a reconciliation, not the only lifting.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BetrayedAgain7 (Apr 27, 2013)

Mrs_Mathias said:


> SP has BPD. She will likely always need reinforcement to help with her decisions if she is going to have a successful relationship. I have sympathy for her because she asked for help, she confessed, before breaking NC, that she was starting to have thoughts of AP.* It's exactly the communication that has been mentioned by OPs in this thread. *She was in reconciliation and her partner shut her out.


No it's not the communication that has been mentioned. It falls way short of it. I've already explained why. 

Having BPD makes no difference, that is no excuse, sorry. If she needed reinforcement of her decisions re her relationship, she could have sought out the assistance of an IC/MC.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

BetrayedAgain7 said:


> No it's not the communication that has been mentioned. It falls way short of it. I've already explained why.
> 
> Having BPD makes no difference, that is no excuse, sorry. If she needed reinforcement of her decisions re her relationship, she could have sought out the assistance of an IC/MC.


l lived with a bpder for 15 yrs. l know exactly what that brings to the table. Personally l do sense a more remorseful state of mind than usual from solpot but the nc thing is utter madness. How in any way anyone can put that at the bspouses door i will never know.


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## Mrs_Mathias (Nov 19, 2012)

BetrayedAgain7 said:


> No it's not the communication that has been mentioned. It falls way short of it. I've already explained why.
> 
> Having BPD makes no difference, that is no excuse, sorry. If she needed reinforcement of her decisions re her relationship, she could have sought out the assistance of an IC/MC.


She does get regular IC/MC. It's not an excuse. It's a challenge that must be faced by her and anyone who chooses to be a partner with her.

I'm sorry that she didn't state "if you don't talk to me about this I will cheat." She didn't say that because cheating was not her goal or desire. It's not a punishiment/retaliation against the BS for not talking. It's impractical to expect that type of communication, IMO, because especially in this case - SP didn't/doesn't WANT to cheat. She WANTS a fulfilling relationship with the person she believes she loves, which is why she hasn't just walked away.

After all the counseling she has done individually and with her partner, for her to articulate in advance that she feels herself slipping shows amazing foresight and honesty. It seems like most BS's here would have really appreciated that type of honesty in advance. Should she have broken NC when her partner didn't support her in her weakness, no, she should have asked for help from another source, and another until she was able to battle back the weaknesses in her nature. But people do fail, not always because they want to, not because they are a terrible person, but sometimes because the resources they need to succeed are not available even when they are looking and asking for them.

She shouldn't have to "threaten" infidelity to get her partner to respond. Her partner should recognize after the counseling they have done together, that SP has a weakness in this area and she can help her be vigilant in avoiding that weakness, IF she wants to help them have a healthy relationship together.

If you love someone who is an alcoholic, and they tell you they bought a bottle of vodka, do you say you don't want to discuss it, and then expect them to be strong enough not to drink it? Or if it is someone you love, would you try to help them, encourage them to get rid of it, and stick to the progress they have made in battling that disease?

The BS is not RESPONSIBLE for anything in either case. But it's a difference in how you treat someone you claim to love and want to be in a relationship with, vs. how you treat someone you just want to test until they fail and then declare yourself right so you have an out.


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## BetrayedAgain7 (Apr 27, 2013)

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I'm sorry that she didn't state "if you don't talk to me about this I will cheat."


Well I'm sorry too, because the fact that she DID NOT say that she was going to contact her AP again, BEFORE she did so, means that the BS is NOT responsible for the fact that she contacted her AP again behind her partners back, is she?

If SHE HAD and the BS had then said I don't want to discuss that, then okay. Fair game.

I don't know anything at all of SP and her relationship, so I'm only discussing it based on YOUR account.

If you believe that level of communication is unreasonable or impractical, then go right ahead and believe it, I just don't happen to agree with you.

If SP felt she wasn't getting her needs met (wether in R or not) she should have stated that it was a deal breaker and she wasn't interested in R anymore BEFORE she broke NC and if the relationship was SO vital for the WS, breaking NC wasn't going to help it along was it? Perhaps her BS MAY have finally woken up and recognised the desperation of SP if she had.

NOWHERE am I excusing the BS for dismissing SP's need for listening, tenderness and care when she needed it! Nowhere.

I've already stated what I think of the BS outright contempt of the WS. But she STILL had the right to KNOW before SP broke NC!


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## Mrs_Mathias (Nov 19, 2012)

BetrayedAgain7 said:


> Well I'm sorry too, because the fact that she DID NOT say that she was going to contact her AP again, BEFORE she did so, means that the BS is NOT responsible for the fact that she contacted her AP again behind her partners back, is she?
> 
> If SHE HAD and the BS had then said I don't want to discuss that, then okay. Fair game.
> 
> ...


And I guess I feel that by telling her partner that she was struggling with thoughts of the AP again is telling her that she feels close to failing at that NC. It's telling her partner that she is entertaining escapist thoughts about someone else. Technically, IMO, entertaining positive thoughts of the AP is a NC breach. My NC rules/goals are to maintain no actual contact in any form, and no mental/emotional contact within myself either. 

If I was slipping on that aspect and told Matt, I know it would hurt him to know that I was entertaining thoughts of OM, but I know he would also want to know that about my mental/emotional state. That honesty would have served us well when we first attempted R. He may respond by saying if I still have feelings in that way then I must not be remorseful and he's done. Or he may respond by helping me see that the OM isn't really what this is about, it's about my own weakness and conflict avoidance, or whatever the root behind that poor impulse is. But if I had the courage to face the person I hurt so badly and confess that I am struggling with thoughts that may contribute to me doing it again, I wouldn't expect to simply be dismissed, if they cared about me and our relationship too. That sends a message to me that the partner doesn't care whether I cheat or not. ETA: And of course, the right thing to do is to leave that relationship if the partner cares so little. But as we see from BS's all the time - even when someone treats you horribly (like a WS does), it's hard to leave them when you believe you love them, when you have hope for a better future.

From the little I understand of BPD, a major factor is poor impulse control. I don't think SP "decided" to break NC. I think the message was sent (or phone call or whatever) before she even really recognized what she had done. It doesn't excuse it, but it makes it hard to protect against without substantial behavioral therapy and support. She recognizes exactly how destructive this behavior is to her relationship and herself. But she can't always control it, I don't think, or it wouldn't be a documented condition, it would be poor personal discipline.


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## TryingToRecover (Dec 19, 2012)

Mrs_Mathias said:


> And I guess I feel that by telling her partner that she was struggling with thoughts of the AP again is telling her that she feels close to failing at that NC. It's telling her partner that she is entertaining escapist thoughts about someone else. Technically, IMO, entertaining positive thoughts of the AP is a NC breach. My NC rules/goals are to maintain no actual contact in any form, and no mental/emotional contact within myself either.
> 
> If I was slipping on that aspect and told Matt, I know it would hurt him to know that I was entertaining thoughts of OM, but I know he would also want to know that about my mental/emotional state. That honesty would have served us well when we first attempted R. He may respond by saying if I still have feelings in that way then I must not be remorseful and he's done. Or he may respond by helping me see that the OM isn't really what this is about, it's about my own weakness and conflict avoidance, or whatever the root behind that poor impulse is. But if I had the courage to face the person I hurt so badly and confess that I am struggling with thoughts that may contribute to me doing it again, I wouldn't expect to simply be dismissed, if they cared about me and our relationship too. That sends a message to me that the partner doesn't care whether I cheat or not. ETA: And of course, the right thing to do is to leave that relationship if the partner cares so little. But as we see from BS's all the time - even when someone treats you horribly (like a WS does), it's hard to leave them when you believe you love them, when you have hope for a better future.
> 
> From the little I understand of BPD, a major factor is poor impulse control. I don't think SP "decided" to break NC. I think the message was sent (or phone call or whatever) before she even really recognized what she had done. It doesn't excuse it, but it makes it hard to protect against without substantial behavioral therapy and support. She recognizes exactly how destructive this behavior is to her relationship and herself. But she can't always control it, I don't think, or it wouldn't be a documented condition, it would be poor personal discipline.


Re your last paragraph. I was raised by a parent dx'd with BPD. Yes, poor impulse control almost always STILL gets the better of her, even in later years. However, she knows exactly what she's doing at the precise moment she does it. She gets so caught up in the moment and her negative emotions that she does not think before acting. But even she would say she DECIDES to do whatever it is that she has done and does recognize what she's doing. It's only later, once she's calmed down, she chooses to see the entirety of what she has done. I don't buy that someone with BPD doesn't understand what they're doing when they do it. It's just that many of them don't consider the consequences until after the fact. 

This person knew they were breaking NC and chose to do it anyway. Poor impulse control, getting caught up in negative emotions, feeling badly about themselves and fearing abandonment....some of the potential factors. They didn't recognize their choice only after the fact, they realized the consequences after they acted once they were able to calm down and think things through. My dx'd with BPD mom would say the exact same thing I just did, no doubt in my mind.

I'm no clinical psychologist but being raised by a mom with BPD gave me insight I could have done without my whole life. I had to be the adult to a single mom with BPD. No offense but it sucked. I did not have a childhood.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

TryingToRecover said:


> Re your last paragraph. I was raised by a parent dx'd with BPD. Yes, poor impulse control almost always STILL gets the better of her, even in later years. *However, she knows exactly what she's doing at the precise moment she does it. *


Yes - I have lived with the consequences of that little titbit for what becomes the rest of my life and so have my children and the children of all the other marriages she soared into and ripped to pieces 



TryingToRecover said:


> She gets so caught up in the moment and her negative emotions that she does not think before acting. But even she would say she DECIDES to do whatever it is that she has done and does recognize what she's doing. It's only later, once she's calmed down, she chooses to see the entirety of what she has done. I don't buy that someone with BPD doesn't understand what they're doing when they do it. It's just that many of them don't consider the consequences until after the fact.


 That's the point with BPD they maybe have an excuse about wondering how on earth they got to that precipice but sure having got there choose to then take the behavior forward. 



TryingToRecover said:


> This person knew they were breaking NC and chose to do it anyway. Poor impulse control, getting caught up in negative emotions, feeling badly about themselves and fearing abandonment....some of the potential factors. They didn't recognize their choice only after the fact, they realized the consequences after they acted once they were able to calm down and think things through. My dx'd with BPD mom would say the exact same thing I just did, no doubt in my mind.


 Also in the window of remorse that follows - about ten minutes per year they know exactly what why and how they've done what they've done. No problems with the thought process there.



TryingToRecover said:


> I'm no clinical psychologist but being raised by a mom with BPD gave me insight I could have done without my whole life. I had to be the adult to a single mom with BPD. No offense but it sucked. I did not have a childhood.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I thankfully will have enough input to save my children from the same


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Mrs_Mathias said:


> She does get regular IC/MC. It's not an excuse. It's a challenge that must be faced by her and anyone who chooses to be a partner with her.
> 
> I'm sorry that she didn't state "if you don't talk to me about this I will cheat." She didn't say that because cheating was not her goal or desire. It's not a punishiment/retaliation against the BS for not talking. It's impractical to expect that type of communication, IMO, because especially in this case - SP didn't/doesn't WANT to cheat. She WANTS a fulfilling relationship with the person she believes she loves, which is why she hasn't just walked away.
> 
> ...


Sorry Mrs Mathias but all your posts although you claim one thing smack of avoiding blame at all costs. It never seems to be actually 'you done that and that shows just what an shamelessly selfish evil fk you can be now at least own up and maybe we can try and get on from there'. You never actually can go the whole way and put the blame squarely on anyone. There's always this sense of "well poor this" and "well poor that" "just did'nt have the coping mechanisms "just wasn't able to this and that 

Mstbx would love you. That's not to offend you but you are just the type of person she seeks out to 'salvage her' to 'support her' who 'understands' how she feels' 

But I can tell you having lived with her for 15 yrs she's a nasty selfish sometimes evil fker that has ripped countless families lives apart, still is, and doesn't give a flying fk although I strongly suspect you would not believe me.


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## Mrs_Mathias (Nov 19, 2012)

I think the core of our disagreement is as you say. I don't believe most normal, functioning humans are evil fks. And I don't accept selfishness as a reason for infidelity. All people are selfish to an extent. I seek to see through someone else's eyes what they are attempting to provide themselves through that selfish behavior so that they or I could assist in preventing that in the future.

I'm am sorry your ex was/is so horrible to you. I understand your hatred for "unmet" needs given your experience. But frankly I think you and I are discussing apples and oranges when it comes to this topic, so I will respectfully withdraw.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TryingToRecover (Dec 19, 2012)

Headspin said:


> Sorry Mrs Mathias but all your posts although you claim one thing smack of avoiding blame at all costs. It never seems to be actually 'you done that and that shows just what an shamelessly selfish evil fk you can be now at least own up and maybe we can try and get on from there'. You never actually can go the whole way and put the blame squarely on anyone. There's always this sense of "well poor this" and "well poor that" "just did'nt have the coping mechanisms "just wasn't able to this and that
> 
> Mstbx would love you. That's not to offend you but you are just the type of person she seeks out to 'salvage her' to 'support her' who 'understands' how she feels'
> 
> But I can tell you having lived with her for 15 yrs she's a nasty selfish sometimes evil fker that has ripped countless families lives apart, still is, and doesn't give a flying fk although I strongly suspect you would not believe me.


Your last sentence in your response to the other poster resonated with me. That is a very apt description for my mother and her behavior in earlier years. She does not care about the BS's she helped to betray. In fact, a long time ago would have laughed at that notion. She has more insight into her behavior now but will always function from her diagnosis when it comes down to it. I have never seen or heard her take full responsibility for anything. She DOES have better insight but it's clinical more than anything else. She definitely recognizes it in others w/BPD. She needs more help than what she's has received thus far. I doubt she'll ever take responsibility like others might.

The thing about people who resort to "woe is me" and other manipulative behavior, well my first instinct is to want to know the other side of the story. For instance, if they are bashing their spouse and the "woe is me routine," my first instinct is to not believe it. Especially not anymore. My mom is very charming and personable until she feels crossed, or one gets to know her better. My dad had his faults but she demonized him to anyone who would listen until the day he died. She still says horrible things about him - to ME. For decades she told people he did things to her that she had actually done to him, projected and lied. In her case, there was a huge litany of unmet needs she never fails to mention in relation to her ex husbands. Many, many people believed her lies re my dad and still do. She's "sort of" admitted to me the vitriol was mostly baseless but never bothered to cop to that to others she'd lied to. Sad. Sad for her she chose to cope in this manner. Sad for my dad for the obvious reasons.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I think the core of our disagreement is as you say. I don't believe most normal, functioning humans are evil fks.


Mmm but neither do I as well - most normal functioning humans are of course not evil fks but some are and some are not as bad as that too *but* some are just plain selfish and entitled and when they are they should be called out for being exactly that not mollycoddled and seen as some kind of victim



Mrs_Mathias said:


> And I don't accept selfishness as a reason for infidelity.


Well I think that right there is maybe where you should have started this conversation, because I think had you said that in the very beginning conversations would have been short 

You should accept selfishness as a reason for infidelity because it's the main fundamental one surely - how is there any other conclusion to that ? 

How on earth do you conclude that infidelity /adultery is not a selfish act ? :scratchhead:



Mrs_Mathias said:


> I'm am sorry your ex was/is so horrible to you. I understand your hatred for "unmet" needs given your experience. But frankly I think you and I are discussing apples and oranges when it comes to this topic, so I will respectfully withdraw.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Agreed


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

TryingToRecover said:


> Your last sentence in your response to the other poster resonated with me. That is a very apt description for my mother and her behavior in earlier years. She does not care about the BS's she helped to betray. In fact, a long time ago would have laughed at that notion. She has more insight into her behavior now but will always function from her diagnosis when it comes down to it. I have never seen or heard her take full responsibility for anything. She DOES have better insight but it's clinical more than anything else. She definitely recognizes it in others w/BPD. She needs more help than what she's has received thus far. I doubt she'll ever take responsibility like others might.
> 
> The thing about people who resort to "woe is me" and other manipulative behavior, well my first instinct is to want to know the other side of the story. For instance, if they are bashing their spouse and the "woe is me routine," my first instinct is to not believe it. Especially not anymore. My mom is very charming and personable until she feels crossed, or one gets to know her better. My dad had his faults but she demonized him to anyone who would listen until the day he died. She still says horrible things about him - to ME. For decades she told people he did things to her that she had actually done to him, projected and lied. In her case, there was a huge litany of unmet needs she never fails to mention in relation to her ex husbands. Many, many people believed her lies re my dad and still do. She's "sort of" admitted to me the vitriol was mostly baseless but never bothered to cop to that to others she'd lied to. Sad. Sad for her she chose to cope in this manner. Sad for my dad for the obvious reasons.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's terrible TTR. Have to say word for word that is mstbxw and she is doing the same to me. Maybe fortunately for me in this more enlightened age I, unlike your dad, can counter her stuff. I know her and can read her behavior and can protect myself better but I'd still say even though I am no longer with her it is still a struggle dealing with her aftermath and cyclic collapses that leave the children and I reeling as yet another cataclysmic event happens in our lives.

thank god i'm out but having kids sadly still ties me in to her madness


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## Mrs_Mathias (Nov 19, 2012)

Headspin said:


> Mmm but neither do I as well - most normal functioning humans are of course not evil fks but some are and some are not as bad as that too *but* some are just plain selfish and entitled and when they are they should be called out for being exactly that not mollycoddled and seen as some kind of victim
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I do conclude infidelity is a very selfish act. I'm not willing to let someone just say they were selfish and leave it at that. There's no understanding there, no effort to look for prevention. To me, saying, "Well I was selfish," feels like rugsweeping. Why did you let yourself act on that selfishness? How can you prevent yourself from behaving that way again? What have you learned about yourself that allows you to feel you can manage those selfish tendencies?

Those are the questions I look to answer for myself, so I can offer more real security to my spouse.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I do conclude infidelity is a very selfish act. I'm not willing to let someone just say they were selfish and leave it at that. There's no understanding there, no effort to look for prevention. To me, saying, "Well I was selfish," feels like rugsweeping. Why did you let yourself act on that selfishness? How can you prevent yourself from behaving that way again? What have you learned about yourself that allows you to feel you can manage those selfish tendencies?
> 
> Those are the questions I look to answer for myself, so I can offer more real security to my spouse.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Look, I feel you are a somewhat 'vulnerable' person and someone I will take no pleasure in hurting but I think you should just think about some of these things. You just said "I don't accept selfishness as a reason for infidelity" but here you DO conclude it is a selfish act - which is it ? 

It is not complicated and I feel you are making it so, you can ask all those question about your selfishness if you like but there are much more simple answers that ultimately will 'release' you from the terrible place you are at present 

Just briefly one of the things the big problems I have with mstbx is that even now after a weight of evidence that would sink the titanic she still, still cannot hold up her hand and say "Yep it's me I'm a bad ass" She _still_ looks to find another answer "it was this" "it was that" "I'm sorry BUT" "I had this" "you did'nt do that" ad nauseum. Even over time these things that either one of us supposedly did or did not do change, so it doesn't even matter what the point of her argument is - what is plain and simple is that she was selfish, a bad ass who hurt her children and other children and her own marriage other marriages and still will not hold up her hand. She went bad for a time, she cared about nothing or no-one else but her own selfish ways.

Once you own up to being as bad as it gets then at least you can't sink any lower, the only way is up. You actually find that people do show compassion for you even as bad as you've been. You keep lying blameshifting even in the most subtle of ways and people just think you're an idiot and think "fk you" 

This is a fundamental part of human behavior I learned a very long time ago. I'm far from perfect and boy is it hard to do to know how stupid you can be but at least once admission of guilt and full remorse has been offered you can only move forward.


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## BetrayedAgain7 (Apr 27, 2013)

Mrs_Mathias said:


> *And I guess I feel* that by telling her partner that she was struggling with thoughts of the AP again is telling her that she feels close to failing at that NC. It's telling her partner that she is entertaining escapist thoughts about someone else.


And here we have it it folks, the whole crux of the matter and directly from the mouth of a WS. 

It's what I always suspected. 

They expect the BS to be a mind reader!



Mrs_Mathias said:


> I don't think SP "decided" to break NC.



Doesn't matter what anyone thinks. She broke NC. There are no degrees of breaking NC. She broke it, she chose to do it, that's it, bottom line. It's not on the BS, it's on her.

Please don't talk to me about poor impulse control as a justification.

We can excuse a BPD till the cows come home. If they have the ability to be function in the world relative to the degree of the disorder, they have the ability to make choices. If they have such poor impulse control that they cannot make choices, they should not be out on the streets; because that would mean they have the mind of a toddler and be unsafe.

Sorry don't buy that excuse. I'm also very familiar with BPD, lived it and breathed it for 30 years, so I don't want to be preached at about it.

This argument is not about BPD anyway. It's about the increasing tendency of WS's to justify their lies and betrayals by saying they did what they did because of UNMET NEEDS.


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## BetrayedAgain7 (Apr 27, 2013)

Headspin said:


> *Once you own up to being as bad as it gets then at least you can't sink any lower, the only way is up. *You actually find that people do show compassion for you even as bad as you've been. You keep lying blameshifting even in the most subtle of ways and people just think you're an idiot and think "fk you"
> 
> This is a fundamental part of human behavior I learned a very long time ago. I'm far from perfect and boy is it hard to do to know how stupid you can be but at least* once admission of guilt *and full remorse has been offered you can only move forward.


:iagree: Yes, I agree, great post Headspin. This is it in a nutshell. 

Once, the WS, excepts UNRESERVED GUILT and TOTAL accountability for the BETRAYAL, then the relationship can MOVE FORWARD into healing with BOTH partners doing the work of fully understanding themselves, their own specific needs and those of their spouse, by COMMUNICATING those needs to EACH OTHER.

If the BS is constantly trying to assuage even a little bit of their guilt by not being FULLY accountable for the betrayal, then, in my opinion, proper healing is unlikely, if ever, going to happen.


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## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

*Sv: Unmet Needs !*

Mrs.M, I always enjoy it when you find the time and motivation to post here. I am one of those who believe that you actually "get it", though I must say that the scraps post wasn't among your best. TryingToRecover did a very good job elaborating on my post explaning in detail why (thanks, btw).

I wish it was possible to join/combine a post from Headspin (the one with raising hands) with a post from MrsM (the one searching for ways to learn about one's selfishness) - these viewpoints are not mutually exclusive, I think a combination should be textbook for every recovering ws (and everyone who wronged another person, btw). The world would be such a nicer place to be in.

If my wife had it in her to start with Headspins recipe and finish with MrsM's without thinking about scraps, though, I believe I could be vulnerable again instead of staying in self protection mode.

Thankyou for your posts, they've been valuable.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Actually, my use of the word scraps was directly from a post on a different thread of similar topic by a BS, describing what WS's deserve and should be grateful for. Not my word. And your facts are incorrect. I had one AP, but multiple D-Days. And when I discuss reconciliation, for me that encompasses far more than helping heal the infidelity injury. It is the full rebuilding of the relationship into a mutually satisfying experience, so I think we differ in our perception of ultimate goal there.
> 
> I find it interesting that BS's here are often able to comment on threads from a general standpoint, but when I do the same, my specific affair and reconciliation must be included. And Rookie, if I am successful at helping my husband heal from the devastation of my affair and we rebuild a relationship together, don't I deserve to be "rewarded" with a fully functioning relationship where my happiness is also cared for by my spouse? Is that a "reward"? Or simply a sign of a good relationship?
> 
> BS's do nothing to deserve to be cheated on. But is there nothing a WS can do to deserve to be treated with love and respect again at some point in the future?


 Deserve? I'm thinking more about EARN. Like I said, it is all about motivation. Are you motivated by remorse and true love for your husband, or by disappointment in yourself and the need to be a success, and some "pie in the sky" .


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> Deserve? I'm thinking more about EARN. Like I said, it is all about motivation. Are you motivated by remorse and true love for your husband, or by disappointment in yourself and the need to be a success, and some "pie in the sky" .


Why could she not be feeling both?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

From reading soulpotato's story, and even MM's, I think it is pretty clear that the WS needs the support of the BS to heal. If the BS cannot give it, the relationship may never be repaired.

I know it seems like a lot to ask, but I think it is necessary for complete healing.


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## Mrs_Mathias (Nov 19, 2012)

Interestingly enough, the post on the other thread, where "all a WS deserves are scraps and they should be grateful for that" has been deleted. I apologize for replying to that idea out of context and giving anyone the impression that a BS honestly attempting R is scraps. What Matt offers me is certainly not scraps. It is the best he is capable if right now after all the hurt I inflicted on him. As he heals, his capabilities change.

What I was offended by, in the now non-existent post, is the idea that because someone has cheated they have no right to expect to have a fulfilling relationship at some point in the future. 

I apologize again for offending people that I know are doing what they can in their situations. That is not what I intended my post to refer to.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mrs_Mathias (Nov 19, 2012)

Here are the lessons I take from much of this thread:

1. All unmet needs in a relationship are imaginary and unimportant. "He brought me a yellow pencil when I wanted blue. "
2. Asking your spouse for change, asking for help, and seeking joint counseling are not adequate forms of communication. 
3. The only acceptable form of communication that a spouse should respond to is threatening to divorce.
4. If a person has petty want in a relationship - oh say such as affection, sexual fulfillment, or honesty - it is their fault because they didn't communicate in the required manner outlined above.
5. [edited to more accurately reflect previous posts] If a person is not being treated with love and respect in a relationship, it is because they didn't earn it. No one deserves anything.

Thank you for the education. I'll make sure to pass these platitudes on to my sons so they can be successful spouses.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Here are the lessons I take from much of this thread:
> 
> 1. All unmet needs in a relationship are imaginary and unimportant. "He brought me a yellow pencil when I wanted blue. "
> 2. Asking your spouse for change, asking for help, and seeking joint counseling are not adequate forms of communication.
> ...


1. No
2. No
3. No
4. No
5. To the first part... _possibly_. As to the latter -- everyone deserves to be happy, but happiness gained at the expense of the happiness of others is somewhat tainted in nature.


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## Mrs_Mathias (Nov 19, 2012)

GusPolinski said:


> 1. No
> 2. No
> 3. No
> 4. No
> 5. To the first part... _possibly_. As to the latter -- everyone deserves to be happy, but happiness gained at the expense of the happiness of others is somewhat tainted in nature.



You're right, my #5 should be revised to the following, based on previous posts :

5. If someone is not being treated with love and respect in a relationship it's because they didn't earn it. No one deserves anything.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

I haven't read the entire thread, by the way, so I wasn't necessarily commenting on the what's been said by others as much as I was offering my own take on the ideas put forth in your post.


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## sammy3 (Jun 5, 2011)

Mrs_Mathias said:


> BS's do nothing to deserve to be cheated on. But is there nothing a WS can do to deserve to be treated with love and respect again at some point in the future?


>"Forgiveness takes work. Pardon is conferred. The forgiver frees themselves of hatred, but does not free the injurer of responsibility." A pardon is a gift that ask nothing of the offender. Forgiveness, in contrast, comes with a price and must be earned.< 

It a process. 

Sometimes the love & respect can never be replaced as it was, because our love & respect was so replace by a ow/om... It will always be different... 

~sammy


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

MM, imagine your husband saying the following to you, sincerely (no need to respond):

"MM, I know that you are doing your very best to make our reconciliation work. I know you're sorry for what you did two years ago. I really appreciate that."

"MM, I feel like I wasn't there for you either when you needed me. I wasn't meeting your deepest needs. I still don't think I am."

"MM, I don't know if I can be what you need. If I cannot, you may always feel the temptation to go elsewhere to have those needs met."

"This is not what I want for you, nor for me. I want both of us to be in a relationship where our deepest needs are met. That may be with one another, but it may need to be with other people."

"I think we need to come to terms with that. I'm struggling with it, and I think you are too. How do you think we could get there?"


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## TryingToRecover (Dec 19, 2012)

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Here are the lessons I take from much of this thread:
> 
> 1. All unmet needs in a relationship are imaginary and unimportant. "He brought me a yellow pencil when I wanted blue. "
> 2. Asking your spouse for change, asking for help, and seeking joint counseling are not adequate forms of communication.
> ...


1. No, unmet needs on both sides are important. They also need to be communicated and in my case they were not. Sometimes anyone's needs also need to be examined. For instance, some WS's express they did not get enough attention; however, perhaps the couple both work, have a few kids and the WS expected the BS to always drop everything and provide them that attention, etc. the WS in this case would have to learn to compromise if they ever expect that need to be met. By anyone, really. 

I also had a "need" that dictated those around me deal with my chronic depression that I was not ever doing enough to deal with. I could deal with it, why couldn't they? Very unreasonable on my part and very wrong of me expectations wise, to lay that crap on my loved ones long term. This is one of the things I have absolutely been doing my part to rectify the last few years. I will always struggle with depression as it is not situational, strictly biological. But I'm dealing and coping with it much better than ever before.

I'm not a BS who doesn't recognize what I was doing wrong pre-affair. I'm also not a BS who is ever going to accept that cheating is acceptable in the case of unmet needs, or anything else. Cheating is not a solution. If it were, why is everyone involved generally devastated on dday? If it were, why don't we see more people going around saying, "gee, that worked so well and I can't wait until THAT happens again."

2. My WS asked for changes post dday and upon consideration, examination, and much communication....I made certain changes, like dealing with my depression, as described above. Vice versa for him, obviously. 

I asked my WS if I had been the WS and I had told him of my ongoing feelings for the AP and that I might reach out to them, he told me that would be a deal breaker for him. BPD partner or not (I'm not BPD, just mentioning it re the prior convo), and he does have a very good understanding of BPD, fwiw. My WS never broke NC as, initially, he understood my line in the sand. Before too long he was no longer interested in having any contact with the xOW. WS has ADHD, another disorder that is associated with impulse control issues. 

People can only take so much. I've lived with a BPD'er and it's not anything I would wish on anyone, to be quite honest. Speaking from my experiences only. In my experience they will lie and manipulate to get what they want, and avoid taking responsibility at all costs. I would recommend anyone involved with a BPD'er on any level take their complaints about their SO's with a grain of salt, as often times it is mostly projection and lies. In my experience the person the BPD'er is complaining to is only being manipulated. Note that BPD'ers may actually have valid complaints about their SO's but this often isn't the reason why the SO is being complained about. I am wary of anyone who chronically complains about their SO as it is indicative of many dysfunctional coping methods I'd never want to be on the receiving end of.

3. Responding to threats of divorce? No, that shouldn't be the only communication responded to. On the flip side, the only communication I was given was cheating. Is that ok? No. I much would have preferred a) actual communication or yes, b) divorce.

4. Any needs should be communicated in a way other than adultery, expecting a spouse to be a mind reader, and so on. Expecting a spouse to deal with unmet needs forever or expecting a BS to be loving, understanding and *instruct and direct* their WS out of the impulse to contact the xAP is beyond unreasonable, and cruel if you ask me. Talk about Plan B! Not only is the BS receiving proof they really are Plan B, they are also being asked to administer their own Plan B'ness. What a load! In the face of that situation, I'd run like my arse was on fire and tell the WS to go to their AP, immediately. 

BPD isn't so debilitating that BPD'ers cannot learn effective methods to gain self control and impulse control. If it is, in fact, that debilitating, then that person should not be in any relationship until these issues are no longer debilitating and are coped with effectively. I'm not saying it's an easy thing to overcome as I have seen for myself that it isn't. However, boundaries should not be chronically trampled on, mangled, mutilated, and beat on in the sake of a disorder. 

In fact, very firm boundaries are the BEST thing for a BPD'er in a relationship. The only time my BPD mother has ever been successful in a relationship is when the man she was involved with never waffled, always communicated, and was very firm about what he would tolerate, or not. He expected much of the same from her and got it most the time. So, very clearly, she is not incapable but very many times in life has been quite unwilling but hid that from her partners. There is a big difference.

5. People in a relationship deserve to have it be loving, kind, and a place where their needs are met most of the time, whenever possible. Even at some point after adultery if R is successful.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

TryingToRecover said:


> In fact, very firm boundaries are the BEST thing for a BPD'er in a relationship. The only time my BPD mother has ever been successful in a relationship is when the man she was involved with never waffled, always communicated, and was very firm about what he would tolerate, or not. He expected much of the same from her and got it most the time. So, very clearly, she is not incapable but very many times in life has been quite unwilling but hid that from her partners. There is a big difference.


Women with BPD need very strong men. Those are the only ones who are going to be successful with them.

Dating a BPD: You Must Establish Respect


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Here are the lessons I take from much of this thread:
> 
> 1. All unmet needs in a relationship are imaginary and unimportant. "He brought me a yellow pencil when I wanted blue. "
> 2. Asking your spouse for change, asking for help, and seeking joint counseling are not adequate forms of communication.
> ...


Sounds like "sour grapes", to me MM. I think that I (and other) have tried to show that acknowledging marital issues (unmet needs ) are incredibly important to a happy fulfilling marriage, and conversely, ignoring them usually means trouble.


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

jld said:


> Women with BPD need very strong men. Those are the only ones who are going to be successful with them.
> 
> Dating a BPD: You Must Establish Respect


You believe every thing you read don't you?


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

jld said:


> What do you disagree with that you have read there?


What about women with BPD males? Oh wait, a man would never be a BPD'e because that is weak. Then again, if a man were actually capable of being a BPD'er, the woman would be screwed. You know, because woman are so very weak.


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## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

*Sv: Unmet Needs !*

Yes, I definitely need to be on my toes to avoid being betrayed again.

You know what? I have an important emotional need that I used to think was being met, the need for security in my homebase. My wife can't meet that need anymore, nor can anyone else.

I have no choice but to bury that need and learn to handle it and get by without it being met, ever again. Talk about unmet needs.

Could we compromise on what was suggested earlier, that needs should be examined by both partners and compromises made?


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

jld said:


> *The author says the principles are the same: strong boundaries, and the willingness to walk if the boundaries are not respected. *
> 
> He does say that women seem to have more trouble with this than men, and he did used to recommend that women not stay with BPD men. I don't remember the reason given.


Gender Differences:

Of diagnosed cases of borderline personality disorder, 75 percent are female. It is possible that BPD may be missed in men, whose symptoms may be seen as antisocial or narcissistic, rather than borderline.

Perhaps due to preponderance of women in those diagnosed with BPD, most of the treatment studies have included only women. There is little research regarding the treatment of men with BPD.

Women are far more likely to be diagnosed with BPD than men. In fact, about 75% of people diagnosed with BPD are women (that's a ratio of 3 women to every 1 man diagnosed with BPD). Researchers do not know why there is this gender difference -- it may be that women are more prone to BPD, or it may be that there are biases in the ways that BPD is diagnosed (e.g., men with BPD may be more likely to be given a diagnosis of posttraumatic stress disorder). 

Gender Patterns in Borderline Personality Disorder


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

JLD, like Pidge, I disagree with much of what Rick Reynolds writes at that amateurish website.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Well, this thread has gone hopelessly off topic and is now a BPD thread, so I'll go somewhere else.


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## Prudence222 (Jun 25, 2014)

What brilliant poetic sarcasm. You put my thoughts, or what I was trying to unscramble in my head, into such clarity. These narcissists often 'gaslight' the betrayed as well. Just learning how to do a reality shift on him and its highly satisfying.


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## Prudence222 (Jun 25, 2014)

What brilliant poetic sarcasm. You put my thoughts, or what I was trying to unscramble in my head, into such clarity. These narcissists often 'gaslight' the betrayed as well. Just learning how to do a reality shift on him and its highly satisfying.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

come on this thread doesnt need a full on discussion about bpd it was relevant in terms of reference to solpots situation but thats it

how can the other posts be removed but kept 

is there a way remove them whilst opening another one


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Here are the lessons I take from much of this thread:
> 
> 1. All unmet needs in a relationship are imaginary and unimportant. "He brought me a yellow pencil when I wanted blue. "
> 
> ...



The education would be that what you describe are all reasons that relationships have problems. They are reasons people have communication issues. They are reasons to get help or get out of the relationship. Using them as reasons to cheat is just more justification, and more of what people that cheat do to explain why cheating happens. If you don't think along those lines, then those aren't reasons why cheating happens.. they are reasons you leave your spouse or live a miserable life.. but they aren't reasons to cheat unless you allow them to be.

Unmet needs are something that happens in relationships. Not everyone will meet all of your needs all of the time. If someone doesn't meet many, or any of your needs, find somebody else. Don't cheat on them. That's the lesson in a nutshell.

And if you choose the cheating route, and get caught.. don't try to play the 'honest communication' card. It looks foolish to a BS. The last thing they want to hear is how a selfish action from the WS that hurt them, was caused by what they did or didn't do. They have a hard time with the idea that someone that was caught cheating tried honest communication with as much effort as they put into the affair..


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Here are the lessons I take from much of this thread:
> 
> 1. All unmet needs in a relationship are imaginary and unimportant. "He brought me a yellow pencil when I wanted blue. "
> 2. Asking your spouse for change, asking for help, and seeking joint counseling are not adequate forms of communication.
> ...



I think you could have taken more from this Mrs M. Disappointing.

Your sarcasm belies a lot. You can be as analytical or 'deep' as you like but frankly unmet needs are zero excuse for choosing to cheat especially after the event.

Any defence of that fact makes any wayward spouse look like the blame shifting justifying cheat that they are.

Thought maybe being succinct and to the point would save any future exploration or confusion about the issue from my personal standpoint.

You had 'unmet needs' that could not be resolved - You should have left

That's it - that's how simple it is / or was and that is what I've taken even more so from this thread

I know you either left here or are thinking about it - maybe not 'meeting your needs' I'll take that as, but personally I think you should stick around as I feel there's a lot more you could learn from all this.

I mean that. Whichever way good luck with it


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

"Thank you for the education. I'll make sure to pass these platitudes on to my sons so they can be successful spouses."

One other note about this. 

What is the better lesson to teach sons, that in marriage there will be problems, and that sometimes people that have problems cheat.

or..

There is never a good reason to cheat, even if you have marriage problems. Always keep your self respect and dignity and never use unmet needs as a reason to do something that you know is wrong.

My wifes mother, aunt and grandmother all sent her a strong message that when a husband isn't perfect, sometimes they deserve to be cheated on.


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## sammy3 (Jun 5, 2011)

My unmet need is to have a a faithful spouse... 

~sammy


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Here are the lessons I take from much of this thread:
> 
> 1. All unmet needs in a relationship are imaginary and unimportant.


Nope, but once the complainer of the unmet needs cheats, then the unmet needs take a backseat until the cheater gets their shyte together.




> 2. Asking your spouse for change, asking for help, and seeking joint counseling are not adequate forms of communication.


Who said this?



> 3. The only acceptable form of communication that a spouse should respond to is threatening to divorce.


Who said this?




> 4. If a person has petty want in a relationship - oh say such as affection, sexual fulfillment, or honesty - it is their fault because they didn't communicate in the required manner outlined above.


No, this is the mentality of a cheater that wants to use sarcasm to ignore the really big problem that now exists....cheating.




> 5. [edited to more accurately reflect previous posts] If a person is not being treated with love and respect in a relationship, it is because they didn't earn it. No one deserves anything.


Who said this?




> Thank you for the education. I'll make sure to pass these platitudes on to my sons so they can be successful spouses.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This post of yours right here indicates that you aren't as remorseful as you claim you are over what you did to your husband.

I had plenty of unmet needs in my marriage. I didn't cheat. Wonder what the difference is between me and someone that does?


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Mrs_Mathias said:


> And I don't accept selfishness as a reason for infidelity.


But of course YOU don't.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I think the core of our disagreement is as you say. I don't believe most normal, functioning humans are evil fks. And I don't accept selfishness as a reason for infidelity. All people are selfish to an extent. I seek to see through someone else's eyes what they are attempting to provide themselves through that selfish behavior so that they or I could assist in preventing that in the future.
> 
> I'm am sorry your ex was/is so horrible to you. I understand your hatred for "unmet" needs given your experience. But frankly I think you and I are discussing apples and oranges when it comes to this topic, so I will respectfully withdraw.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Of course being selfish is a reason why people cheat.

Saying all people are selfish is another 'reason' or justification that is used by people that cheat, to explain why it happens. 

I'm with my wife after she betrayed me, and I don't see her as evil. Was she being kind to me while she was cheating on me? No, she was being a horrible human being. 

I often see people try to say that anyone pointing out blame shifting is using black and white thinking, and saying that people are either good or evil. This is just another deflection from the obvious. It is black and white, there is no grey as folks that cheat would try to have you believe. It is also a very clear evil vs. good. While you are cheating, you are not being a very nice person. Are you evil? Might be hyperbole, but I'd say yes.. After you cheat, are you still gas lighting, blame shifting, still unable to admit that you were selfish and entitled and made stupid choices. Does that make you evil? No, but it doesn't help you to heal either and work towards being honest and faithful. It just sets up future affairs, by reinforcing the same old ideas that made cheating a possibility in the first place. Humans are weak.. **** happens... you're not being evil.. etc.. etc...

I think that's what folks here are trying to point out. That Matt won't be able to really trust you until you can find the full blame in the mirror and not just a small portion, and then focus on finding the rest of it outside of the mirror.

This would be a perfect example of things NOT to say to your betrayed spouse if you want to reassure them you are remorseful in R.

"And I don't accept selfishness as a reason for infidelity. All people are selfish to an extent. "


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