# What's TAMs obession with telling the truth



## Jamieboy (Jan 14, 2021)

Didn't want thread jack so created a new thread to understand this better. I'm willing to change my opinion if someone comes up with good argument.

I just came from another thread where the OP emotionally cheated and decided to end their current relationship. However, lots of posters were insistent that they tell their SO why? As the why doesn't change the outcome, why the need to inflict additional pain on the SO? I just don't understand. The relationship is over, why not just let them go with their dignity intact?


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Jamieboy said:


> Didn't want thread jack so created a new thread to understand this better. I'm willing to change my opinion if someone comes up with good argument.
> 
> I just came from another thread where the OP emotionally cheated and decided to end their current relationship. However, lots of posters were insistent that they tell their SO why? As the why doesn't change the outcome, why the need to inflict additional pain on the SO? I just don't understand. The relationship is over, why not just let them go with their dignity intact?


Stealing someone's agency is bad for everyone involved.

It takes a grown up to be in an adult relationship which requires honesty.

Encouraging people to continue to behave like juvenile delinquents doesn't help them grow to eventually be a solid mate.


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## Jamieboy (Jan 14, 2021)

ConanHub said:


> Stealing someone's agency is bad for everyone involved.
> 
> It takes a grown up to be in an adult relationship which requires honesty.
> 
> Encouraging people to continue to behave like juvenile delinquents doesn't help them grow to eventually be a solid mate.


What agency are you steeling here, you're getting dumped either way, so giving the most gentle of reasons surely has to be the kindest thing to do when you're pulling the rug from under someone?


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Jamieboy said:


> What agency are you steeling here, you're getting dumped either way, so giving the most gentle of reasons surely has to be the kindest thing to do when you're pulling the rug from under someone?


Do you understand the term? If you do then your statement doesn't make sense.


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## Exit37 (3 mo ago)

Jamieboy said:


> Didn't want thread jack so created a new thread to understand this better. I'm willing to change my opinion if someone comes up with good argument.
> 
> I just came from another thread where the OP emotionally cheated and decided to end their current relationship. However, lots of posters were insistent that they tell their SO why? As the why doesn't change the outcome, why the need to inflict additional pain on the SO? I just don't understand. The relationship is over, why not just let them go with their dignity intact?


How does breaking off the relationship for no stated reason, or telling a lie, make things better for the BS? How many times have we seen WS state ILYBNILWY as the reason for breaking up or D, and the BS thinks they did something wrong and descends into a terrible depression until they find out the real reason was an affair. Coming clean about the real reason for the breakup is a kindness to the BS in cases like the one you just described.


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## BeyondRepair007 (Nov 4, 2021)

I always default to “tell the truth because it’s the right thing to do”

But that can cause more harm than good so it just depends.

For example, In a scenario where a person cheats on their spouse 40 years ago and has been faithful since… I have a hard time jumping on the truth bandwagon.

If it were me as the BS, I’d rather have the truth. But I understand the argument.


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## Not (Jun 12, 2017)

The truth, no matter how awful, is always better than a lie. I was told so many lies in my last relationship, a lot of which I found out about after the fact and it is absolutely humiliating. Had I known some of these things from the start I never would’ve started dating him. He took my right to choose for myself away. It’s one of the worst things you can do to someone. I know this example is much different than the one you were posing, but the effects are the same.


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## Jamieboy (Jan 14, 2021)

ConanHub said:


> Do you understand the term? If you do then your statement doesn't make sense.


Agency by my understanding is having control, however in my example the dumpee has no control other than how they will react to the news. 

In all cases of relationships ending where abuse is not involved, it is never the person being dumped that's problem. It's not you it's me is always accurate.

Ie I can't keep it in my pants. I don't want to be with anyone. I'm not ready for a committed relationship. 

That being the case, I feel just pick the least egregious to the dumped party and go with that. You've already hurt them, don't make it worse.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

BeyondRepair007 said:


> For example, In a scenario where a person cheats on their spouse 40 years ago and has been faithful since… I have a hard time jumping on the truth bandwagon.


Hahaha till they find out on their deathbed that their whole freakin marriage is a lie 😅


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## BeyondRepair007 (Nov 4, 2021)

RandomDude said:


> Hahaha till they find out on their deathbed that their whole freakin marriage is a lie 😅


Yea, there is always a downside. I get it.


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## Jamieboy (Jan 14, 2021)

Exit37 said:


> How does breaking off the relationship for no stated reason, or telling a lie, make things better for the BS? How many times have we seen WS state ILYBNILWY as the reason for breaking up or D, and the BS thinks they did something wrong and descends into a terrible depression until they find out the real reason was an affair. Coming clean about the real reason for the breakup is a kindness to the BS in cases like the one you just described.


For me, I would rather be told something other than there is some I like better than you. I think this is the primary reason I don't understand it. It would seriously damage my self worth. But this is why I ask the question to see what others experiences are. I suppose it comes down to how one handles rejection


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## Jamieboy (Jan 14, 2021)

Not said:


> The truth, no matter how awful, is always better than a lie. I was told so many lies in my last relationship, a lot of which I found out about after the fact and it is absolutely humiliating. Had I known some of these things from the start I never would’ve started dating him. He took my right to choose for myself away. It’s one of the worst things you can do to someone. I know this example is much different than the one you were posing, but the effects are the same.


Yes and in this scenario it is and was wrong, your ex clearly lied to further his agenda with you that I don't condone. 

I'm talking more of a lie of kindness


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## Not (Jun 12, 2017)

Jamieboy said:


> I'm talking more of a lie of kindness


The lie of kindness though would still cause intense humiliation and most likely massive trust issues for the person who was lied to.

Also, I think the lie of kindness is just a cover for one’s own guilt and is self serving.

And when you lie you always run the chance that you’ll be found out. When you stop and think about it, lying has an in built system to fail. A lie can always be discovered but the truth is rock solid and cannot fail..


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

I remember an old discussion years ago on this forum and it was on the infidelity section. It was about revealing the truth - like is it really for the BS or WS? On one hand telling the truth can be for the Betrayed Spouse but for the Wayward Spouse it's also a way to let go of the guilt hence the act is selfish as the opposite can be seen as sparing them the pain.

I've kept secrets from my lovers too, like if she starts putting on weight should I really tell her - but if I tell her I no longer see that cute beautiful smile on her face when licking her icecream. So meh, I went with making her chubby.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Not said:


> The lie of kindness though would still cause intense humiliation and most likely massive trust issues for the person who was lied to.
> 
> Also, I think the lie of kindness is just a cover for one’s own guilt and is self serving.
> 
> And when you lie you always run the chance that you’ll be found out. When you stop and think about it, lying has an in built system to fail. A lie can always be discovered but the truth is rock solid and cannot fail..


Aye, I hate it, it takes up brain power to keep it up. It's inefficient. I'd rather be free and have my mind occupied with other things.

However, sometimes you have to do what you have to do, and everyone lies. One of the first lies a man can tell a woman is that he will never lie to her 😅


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

Jamieboy said:


> Agency by my understanding is having control, however in my example the dumpee has no control other than how they will react to the news.
> 
> In all cases of relationships ending where abuse is not involved, it is never the person being dumped that's problem. It's not you it's me is always accurate.
> 
> ...


So, for the case you are talking about, if she DOESN'T tell him she got interested in someone else due to NO fault of his, he is ALWAYS (i.e. for the rest of his LIFE) going to wonder what he did to cause her to leave him. He will always think it's his fault. If she steps up, and tells him this other guy was pursuing her, caught her eye, and that is HER FAULT -- that she just didn't love him enough, at least he will eventually realize that it is HER character fault that caused this, not him.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Jamieboy said:


> Agency by my understanding is having control, however in my example the dumpee has no control other than how they will react to the news.
> 
> In all cases of relationships ending where abuse is not involved, it is never the person being dumped that's problem. It's not you it's me is always accurate.
> 
> ...


You have, in my experience and opinion, an extremely unhealthy view of things and your advice is to continue to be unhealthy and undeveloped.

I give advice to people to become healthy and maintain health.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

Jamieboy said:


> Didn't want thread jack so created a new thread to understand this better. I'm willing to change my opinion if someone comes up with good argument.
> 
> I just came from another thread where the OP emotionally cheated and decided to end their current relationship. However, lots of posters were insistent that they tell their SO why? As the why doesn't change the outcome, why the need to inflict additional pain on the SO? I just don't understand. The relationship is over, why not just let them go with their dignity intact?


In the situation you mentioned, the truth is still better in my opinion.

being let down softly tells the dumped boyfriend that there is something wrong with him or he couldn’t do something good enough. Now he may spend a lot of time trying to figure out why the relationship ended.

getting the truth will definitely hurt more in the short term, but in the long term he will be better off because he will realize he didn’t nothing wrong and he was dating a cheater. In time, he will feel better knowing that he is better off without someone that enjoys cheating because let’s be honest, the next time that poster gets bored, she’ll cheat again.


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## harperlee (May 1, 2018)

Jamieboy said:


> What agency are you steeling here, you're getting dumped either way, so giving the most gentle of reasons surely has to be the kindest thing to do when you're pulling the rug from under someone?


No two relationships are the same. There isn't a cookie cutter answer for this, however, when a person wants out of a relationship the _reason_ is fairly mute. If a person is not with you, let them go.
I have read on this forum that a cheating spouse/divorce is worse than death. 
I have thoughts on that line of thinking but the short version is how fortunate for a person to hold such an opinion; best leave them to it.
There is a difference between a partner who leaves and a partner who stays and lies continuously. 
Liars will never fair well. People coming in and out of our lives is something every human must learn to accept.


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## Exit37 (3 mo ago)

RandomDude said:


> Hahaha till they find out on their deathbed that their whole freakin marriage is a lie 😅


Or they say to their wife, "hey I'm thinking about buying DS one of those cool genealogy kits for his birthday!"... There is a guy over on SI going through exactly this, and "his" son is now 50.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Is your actual question here about telling why they are breaking up or is it about disclosing the affair? 

Even if one is being dumped for someone else, I think those are two different questions.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Exit37 said:


> How does breaking off the relationship for no stated reason, or telling a lie, make things better for the BS? How many times have we seen WS state ILYBNILWY as the reason for breaking up or D, and the BS thinks they did something wrong and descends into a terrible depression until they find out the real reason was an affair. Coming clean about the real reason for the breakup is a kindness to the BS in cases like the one you just described.


If the dumpee gets dumped and is only given some vague ILYBNILWY or "it's not you, it's me" or "we have grown apart and I want to find myself" etc etc etc,,, The dumpee needs to ask themselves a few basic questions -

- did I abuse or mistreat my partner?

- Did *I *cheat on my partner?

- Am I am alcoholic or drug addict?

- Have I woefully neglected or chronically rejected my partner or been spanking to porn all the time and neglecting their needs?

- Have I been chronically unemployed throughout our relationship?

If the answer to any of those questions is yes, then they may just want to be rid of you for just cause even if there isn't anyone else and you should consider some self improvement before going into your next relationship.

If the sincere and honest answers to those questions is no, then they are either currently with someone else now, or they want to find someone else that they believe will be better in the near future.. 

People really don't dump their partners because they squeeze the tube of toothpaste from the wrong end or hang the roll of toilet paper the wrong way or they don't prerinse the dishes before putting them in the dishwasher (a personal pet peeve of mine) 

The vast vast majority of people innately want to be with someone and if they are dumping a current partner, it is either for one of the reasons noted above,, or it is for someone else or because they want to look for someone else and will soon find them. 

Yes, I have been dumped and I whined and whailed like Nancy Kerrigan going "Whhyyyyyy, whhhyyyyy whhhyyyyy!" 

But the answer was always the same, it was for somebody else or for the freedom to find somebody else. 

There are probably 5 people out there that dumped their nonabusive, noncheating, nonalcoholic and non neglectful, gainfully employed partner to be alone with their cats for the rest of their lives. All the rest for either for someone else they were seeing at that time or for the freedom to look for someone else.


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## Griswold (2 mo ago)

If the "dumpee" later discovers about the "affair" or cheating - the pain arrives nonetheless. I can speak first hand on that one. My one (that I know of) experience with being cheated on was this situation. I had been gently let down. But quickly realized from my friend circle what had been going on. When my little brain put 2 + 2 together - I went nuclear. I literally saw white. It was like standing near a lightning strike (that's happened to me so I know exactly ) I wish I could pull the cite, but I read an article by a therapist who said that in his view, adultery was the sine qua non of divorce. In his view most divorces stemmed from it somewhere even though most spouses never know about it. And his point - relative to this thread - was that the harm/injury/traumas inflicted on many divorced people stemmed from the lies that the divorcing spouse told to the other spouse to "gentle" up the break up.


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## harperlee (May 1, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> There are probably 5 people out there that dumped their nonabusive, noncheating, nonalcoholic and non neglectful, gainfully employed partner to be alone with their cats for the rest of their lives. All the rest for either for someone else they were seeing at that time or for the freedom to look for someone else.


Nah, way more than 5. Sometimes people are just not compatible, do not mesh, happier and better off not being with each other.
No person's fault, just didn't work out.
No cats needed. Not a good fit, grow apart. 
All relationships are this way, romantic aren't different.


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## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

harperlee said:


> All relationships are this way, romantic aren't different.


Nope. Sexual relationships are different.

@oldshirt is more righter than you.


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## harperlee (May 1, 2018)

Sure they are, but not really.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

harperlee said:


> Nah, way more than 5. Sometimes people are just not compatible, do not mesh, happier and better off not being with each other.
> No person's fault, just didn't work out.
> No cats needed. Not a good fit, grow apart.
> All relationships are this way, romantic aren't different.


I agree that people split up due to incompatibility and not wanting to be with that person forever etc etc etc. But in the absence of bad behavior on the part of the dumpee, when the actual axe comes down, 9 times out of 10 it is either for someone else now or so they can find someone else more compatible. 

In the absence of bad behavior in the dumpee, people rarely break up a relationship to be alone indefinately. 

Sure it happens (at least the 5 times I noted above) but the vast vast vast majority of the time it is either for someone else current or to be able to find someone else.


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

To tell the truth is depending how is or not is benefiting the individual. Simple human behavior that has always help individuals as part of their defense mechanisms. That simply is a part of what we are as humans.

Now, as part of the social behavior humans have tried to idealize the "telling the truth" concept as an honorable and ideal for humans to follow.

Now, as we all know in reality that's not Truth at all. We all lie, one way or another, from the little white lies, to the most damaging lies that can be inflicted on a human being. It happens all the time, every day, all over the world. 

So, to be realistic, as I already said in my first paragraph, we all will tell the complete truth, completely lie, or white lie, depending on what's advantageous to all of us. 

Of course, there's always a percentage of people that in some giving circumstances will tell the truth regardless of the outcome to them, as part of "altruism" and/or the moral senses forcing them to tell the truth.

But that's not most people nor the most predictable outcome, unless the person understand that he, or she is neutral to the situation, and no harms is coming his/her way.


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## harperlee (May 1, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> I agree that people split up due to incompatibility and not wanting to be with that person forever etc etc etc. But in the absence of bad behavior on the part of the dumpee, when the actual axe comes down, 9 times out of 10 it is either for someone else now or so they can find someone else more compatible.
> 
> In the absence of bad behavior in the dumpee, people rarely break up a relationship to be alone indefinately.
> 
> Sure it happens (at least the 5 times I noted above) but the vast vast vast majority of the time it is either for someone else current or to be able to find someone else.


Being a bit facetious but seriously, so what? 
I agree that breaking up sucks. It sucks more to know, I guess, that they may have left you for someone else.
Look, I'm all for till death do us part. I'm all for going through all the tough stuff together, have the t-shirt.
Honestly, if a person wants to move on, for the love of all, let them.
Who in their right mind wants to hang on like grim death to someone who doesn't want them?
Should a person tell them if they have met someone else? What difference does it make.
The point is, they do not want to be with you.
Nuff learned in my book.


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## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

The thread title draws back the curtain a smidge to explain partly why the world is in the state it is.

Honestly thought there'd be a link to a Babylon Bee article in the OP.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

Jamieboy said:


> .......*the OP emotionally cheated and decided to end their current relationship.* However, lots of posters were* insistent that they tell their SO* why? As the why doesn't change the outcome, why the need to inflict additional pain on the SO? I just don't understand. The relationship is over, why not just *let them go with their dignity intact*?


Because many of us have been in relationships where the other person broke up with us without any explanation. In such cases you never really know why. As such you invent reasons, which are often far worse about yourself as to why your SO left you.

If one is trying to learn from their mistakes, you really want to know more than 
keeping your dignity intact."


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Jamieboy said:


> What agency are you steeling here, you're getting dumped either way, so giving the most gentle of reasons surely has to be the kindest thing to do when you're pulling the rug from under someone?


People should always live in the truth so they have no illusions about their pasts, their own actions, etc. Why live in the cesspool of lies? Each person has their own agency and cannot exercise it if they do not know or live in the truth of their reality. People usually want to know what their reality is, even though the relationship is over either way. Your comment is very must skewed towards protecting the ass of the WS, pretending to do a favour for the BS. If I am a BS, I want the truth, I crave the truth. I do not see how you do not understand that! I guess you have a lot of growing to do.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Jamieboy said:


> Didn't want thread jack so created a new thread to understand this better. I'm willing to change my opinion if someone comes up with good argument.
> 
> I just came from another thread where the OP emotionally cheated and decided to end their current relationship. However, lots of posters were insistent that they tell their SO why? As the why doesn't change the outcome, why the need to inflict additional pain on the SO? I just don't understand. The relationship is over, why not just let them go with their dignity intact?


I just thought of a very different way of looking at this question. It's not so much about being kind to your betrayed spouse as it is a way to let yourself off the hook ahead of time. If you can rationalize that cheating doesn't have to be such a terrible thing for your betrayed spouse, that he or she can be spared the details that would cause pain, that lowers your barriers to cheating. Because you believe you can do it without causing as much pain.

And the truth is, that's total nonsense because there are so many ways the betrayed spouse can learn about what really happened and is it really up to anyone to say whether the betrayed spouse could feel better, or even worse, about it when the discovery is after the breakup?

But again, I see this really as selfish justification that makes it easier to rationalize cheating. As well as putting your betrayed spouse in a subservient position because you're denying them agency.


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## Jamieboy (Jan 14, 2021)

I'm finding a lot of responses quite interesting, so thanks for those of you who took the time to reply. However, 2 posters undermined themselves by suggesting that because I hold a different view to them, I am somehow deficient as a human being. To you guys I say, it is you who are deficient, insulting someone because they hold a different point of view (even if it's faulty) will never ever achieve a positive change. 

To all others, I'm seeing that past history would inform if you were likely to accept a reason other than the brutal truth.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Young at Heart said:


> Because many of us have been in relationships where the other person broke up with us without any explanation. In such cases you never really know why. As such you invent reasons, which are often far worse about yourself as to why your SO left you.
> 
> If one is trying to learn from their mistakes, you really want to know more than
> keeping your dignity intact."


Heh can you even trust what they say? I reckon closure comes from within, besides you're not the only one that can invent reasons they can too and they can bring up anything.


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## QuestionAssumptions (2 mo ago)

Jamieboy said:


> I just came from another thread where the OP emotionally cheated and decided to end their current relationship. However, lots of posters were insistent that they tell their SO why? As the why doesn't change the outcome, why the need to inflict additional pain on the SO? I just don't understand. The relationship is over, why not just let them go with their dignity intact?


Here are a few reasons:

If the SO doesn't understand why the relationship ended, they might blame themselves for it inappropriately.
If the SO doesn't understand why the relationship ended, they might unrealistically cling to the hope of saving it or trying to revisit it later instead of letting it go.
If they don't understand why their relationship ended, they might draw incorrect conclusions about what went wrong and do the wrong things, miss important hints of problems, or fear the wrong things because of it in their next relationship
If they find out later that they were cheated on, they may no longer have a good opportunity to ask why it happened.
Basically, ignorance can lead to poor understanding and then poor decisions can be a side-effect of poor understanding.


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## gaius (Nov 5, 2020)

If you're referring to lying in the context of infidelity, there's a whole culture that's developed around infidelity on forums like this, where groups of people get so wrapped up in it they've developed their own lingo and let whether they're the BS, WS, XFL, ADD, QWERTY or whatever become a defining part of their identity. And there's an element of them wanting you to join their club at play.

So tell that partner you cheated on them and grab your badge, join the club. But for a lot of other people who have experienced pain like watching someone you love die of cancer, losing a child, having parents who didn't love you, infidelity isn't the biggest thing in the world you have to deal with and taking that spiritual journey of honesty and initialisms is more harmful than helpful.


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## Jamieboy (Jan 14, 2021)

QuestionAssumptions said:


> Here are a few reasons:
> 
> If the SO doesn't understand why the relationship ended, they might blame themselves for it inappropriately.
> If the SO doesn't understand why the relationship ended, they might unrealistically cling to the hope of saving it or trying to revisit it later instead of letting it go.
> ...


Thanks for the response and just for clarity, I'm not advocating not giving a reason, I'm advocating giving a plausible reason that doesn't involve a third party.

In the case that triggered my thread. The couple were young and the OP hadn't crossed any physical boundaries. In this instant I definitely advocate leaving the third party out of it.


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## QuestionAssumptions (2 mo ago)

Jamieboy said:


> Thanks for the response and just for clarity, I'm not advocating not giving a reason, I'm advocating giving a plausible reason that doesn't involve a third party.
> 
> In the case that triggered my thread. The couple were young and the OP hadn't crossed any physical boundaries. In this instant I definitely advocate leaving the third party out of it.


Advocating telling the SO there was an emotional affair is a separate issue from whether they should name the third party. But I can also see identifying the third party if they knew they were pursuing a person already in a relationship, their motive seemed to be a desire for a physical relationship, and/or know the SO well.


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## ShatteredKat (Mar 23, 2016)

Life isn't fair and everyone needs to accept that fact.

Some people lie so much it is a way of life. Others lie when it suits their purpose.
Some people always tell the truth as if it was a stand-alone religion.

My experience is the ones who (to me) appear most acceptable to most other people are the ones who lie when it suits their purpose. The ones who always tell the truth are often shunned. I would just simplify the reality as just "the human condition."

For the situation where someone is getting replaced (in a relationship) by another, I call that the dating game. Difficulty for all is when the partner changes after a marriage is consummated. 

Another mess that life often delivers to many that get no warning - Hence the existence of a place like TAM.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Jamieboy said:


> Didn't want thread jack so created a new thread to understand this better. I'm willing to change my opinion if someone comes up with good argument.
> 
> I just came from another thread where the OP emotionally cheated and decided to end their current relationship. However, lots of posters were insistent that they tell their SO why? As the why doesn't change the outcome, why the need to inflict additional pain on the SO? I just don't understand. The relationship is over, why not just let them go with their dignity intact?


Hey, I agree with you...


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## Jamieboy (Jan 14, 2021)

In Absentia said:


> Hey, I agree with you...


Well it's good to know I'm not a total outlier, perhaps it's a British sensibility that doesn't translate 🤔


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Regardless of infidelity or not, one of the reasons people rarely give the whole truth and nothing but the truth when breaking up is that no matter what they say, the dumpee won’t agree with them and will argue with them and tell them that they are wrong or will say that they will change etc etc 

And if they are leaving for another person, the dumpee will attack them and say that they are a terrible person and will malign them to friends and family and may even become actually violent or destructive.

there is no painless and no universally accepted way of breaking up with someone without it causing hurt feelings and unpleasantness or even anger and aggression.

A lot of times the reasons for no longer wanting to see someone are quite superficial and stupid to other people but is meaningful to the dumper.

The dumpee could easily say that they will change and accommodate, but within a short period of they are right back to where they were before.

so there really is no win-win whether someone tries to soften the blow vs being brutally honest.


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## Jamieboy (Jan 14, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> Regardless of infidelity or not, one of the reasons people rarely give the whole truth and nothing but the truth when breaking up is that no matter what they say, the dumpee won’t agree with them and will argue with them and tell them that they are wrong or will say that they will change etc etc
> 
> And if they are leaving for another person, the dumpee will attack them and say that they are a terrible person and will malign them to friends and family and may even become actually violent or destructive.
> 
> ...


I think that a superficial reason to break up with someone is just as valid as any other. The dumper, needs to be true to themselves about what they need from a relationship. 

Giving an example of a superficial reason, would you advocate that a dumper tell the dumpee that the reason is they have an inadequate manhood? As opposed to saying we aren't sexually compatible and holding hard to that? 

In my younger days, I once left a relationship with a girl who was perfect for me in all ways except she gain 100 pounds. I liked her, but didn't feel sexually attracted to her. When I broke it off, this was not mentioned, I told her I wanted to be free to spend more time with my friends. 

I considered this a kindness, was I wrong? We are still in touch 20 years on, I wonder would that be the case if I had been honest?


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## DamianDamian (Aug 14, 2019)

Dishonesty in relationships is for personality disordered selfish types. 
Personally I don't rate much above the truth. If my wife cheated and immediately came clean maybe I could forgive her one day, I'd definitely feel better about it than if she lied about it. If she lied about it and I found out, I'd never forgive her and always think of her as dog poop.
If I lied about it I'd always think of myself as dog poop. 
Already, you just asking this question is enough of a red flag that most healthy decent honest people would never date you. 
"Where have all the good people gone?"


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## DamianDamian (Aug 14, 2019)

How is their dignity intact when you omit the reason? They'll always be wondering - be honest, it's about the LIARS 'dignity' - they don't have any but at least the person they are dumping doesn't know that.

I'd argue that telling them the truth is far more dignified and certainly does not rob them of any dignity. Seems like such a fkd up way to think to me.


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## Jamieboy (Jan 14, 2021)

DamianDamian said:


> How is their dignity intact when you omit the reason? They'll always be wondering - be honest, it's about the LIARS 'dignity' - they don't have any but at least the person they are dumping doesn't know that.
> 
> I'd argue that telling them the truth is far more dignified and certainly does not rob them of any dignity. Seems like such a fkd up way to think to me.


It's so confusing to me that, you think what I'm proposing is no reason? See example above where cheating isn't the reason. Care to comment on that scenario?


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## harperlee (May 1, 2018)

DamianDamian said:


> Dishonesty in relationships is for personality disordered selfish types.
> Personally I don't rate much above the truth. If my wife cheated and immediately came clean maybe I could forgive her one day, I'd definitely feel better about it than if she lied about it. If she lied about it and I found out, I'd never forgive her and always think of her as dog poop.
> If I lied about it I'd always think of myself as dog poop.
> Already, you just asking this question is enough of a red flag that most healthy decent honest people would never date you.
> "Where have all the good people gone?"


The reality is, if a person has reached a point that they are going behind your back to have sex with someone else, the relationship has bigger problems than simply telling you that they are scr*wing around.
I would venture that honesty and emotional intimacy has already left the relationship about 50 miles back.


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## Griswold (2 mo ago)

Jaimieboy - interesting thread by the way. One thing to consider: you mentioned the impetus for your question was a couple where no physical boundary has been crossed. One thing that is fairly clear in the evolutionary psychology literature, and blatantly clear on any infidelity board - on average - women and men are different on this. Men focus generally on crossing the physical border. Women focus on crossing the emotional border (again, on average - not every woman, with many exceptions). So in your scenario, if it was the guy having an emotional connection with another woman - that is the nuclear event / the existential evolutionary crisis for the woman. To "her" it's as much cheating as the trips to a hotel room. Assuming the above to be true - does that alter your scenario?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Jamieboy said:


> I think that a superficial reason to break up with someone is just as valid as any other. The dumper, needs to be true to themselves about what they need from a relationship.
> 
> Giving an example of a superficial reason, would you advocate that a dumper tell the dumpee that the reason is they have an inadequate manhood? As opposed to saying we aren't sexually compatible and holding hard to that?
> 
> ...


I think as close of a universal dump as you can get is, “we are not a match and I no longer want to be together.”

If you give any more specific reason the dumpee will either try to convince you that you are wrong or that they will change. 

No one is going to say, “oh ok, that’s makes sense”. and then go on about their business. That just doesn’t happen in the real world.


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## Quad73 (May 10, 2021)

harperlee said:


> Being a bit facetious but seriously, so what?
> I agree that breaking up sucks. It sucks more to know, I guess, that they may have left you for someone else.
> Look, I'm all for till death do us part. I'm all for going through all the tough stuff together, have the t-shirt.
> Honestly, if a person wants to move on, for the love of all, let them.
> ...


This has often been my experience as well in prior relationships (girlfriends).

I was the dumper or dumpee because the dumper reevaluated the situation and there was a compatibility issue. Too needy in retrospect, thought there was enough sexual compatibility to make it work but there wasn't, growth led to different understandings, realization the dumpee was not going to be VERY ltr material, etc. 

I truly understand both sides of the argument here re the need for truth. I think sometimes there is simply not much truth to tell that would benefit the dumpee. But I'm willing to accept I may be wrong on this, reading some of the responses is making me think.


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## Jamieboy (Jan 14, 2021)

Griswold said:


> Jaimieboy - interesting thread by the way. One thing to consider: you mentioned the impetus for your question was a couple where no physical boundary has been crossed. One thing that is fairly clear in the evolutionary psychology literature, and blatantly clear on any infidelity board - on average - women and men are different on this. Men focus generally on crossing the physical border. Women focus on crossing the emotional border (again, on average - not every woman, with many exceptions). So in your scenario, if it was the guy having an emotional connection with another woman - that is the nuclear event / the existential evolutionary crisis for the woman. To "her" it's as much cheating as the trips to a hotel room. Assuming the above to be true - does that alter your scenario?


It was a girl dumping a guy, but wanted to keep it gender neutral. I understand there is generally a difference though


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## Tdbo (Sep 8, 2019)

Because it is frankly the right freaking thing to do!
Everyone is rightfully justified to have the full body of information concerning their lives.
They deserve to have and are fully entitled to agency in their own relationships.
Why should people be shackled in a relationship because someone made an arbitrary and capricious decision that another person's "Feels" would be hurt if they had knowledge of valuable information?
Nothing but a means to self justify doing another person dirty.
Give me the info. I'll decide if it is worth being "Hurt" over. 
Im the final analysis, I'll damned well be sure that I am the one who is determining, deciding, and implementing changes and adjustments, and the overall course of my life.


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## Jamieboy (Jan 14, 2021)

Tdbo said:


> Because it is frankly the right freaking thing to do!
> Everyone is rightfully justified to have the full body of information concerning their lives.
> They deserve to have and are fully entitled to agency in their own relationships.
> Why should people be shackled in a relationship because someone made an arbitrary and capricious decision that another person's "Feels" would be hurt if they had knowledge of valuable information?
> ...


Right and best are not the same thing fellow philosopher


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## Tdbo (Sep 8, 2019)

Jamieboy said:


> Right and best are not the same thing fellow philosopher


You don't get the right to determine someone elses destiny, Skippy.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

I guess it comes down to if you’d want to know. Would you be upset finding out years later that your spouse had an affair of any type, but didn’t tell you? I would. I’d wonder then if the marriage was a lie. That’s why being honest about having an affair, is best. I think when people lie about one thing, it becomes easier to just keep lying.

From my observation, most spouses who lie or keep these things from their spouse, aren’t doing so to spare their spouse’s feelings, they’re doing it because they don’t want to get divorced and face the consequences of their spouse having a choice in the situation.


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## Jamieboy (Jan 14, 2021)

Tdbo said:


> You don't get the right to determine someone elses destiny, Skippy.


Well you're in fact dead wrong about that in this context, you wish it weren't so but it doesn't make it true fellamelad


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## Tested_by_stress (Apr 1, 2021)

Jamieboy said:


> Didn't want thread jack so created a new thread to understand this better. I'm willing to change my opinion if someone comes up with good argument.
> 
> I just came from another thread where the OP emotionally cheated and decided to end their current relationship. However, lots of posters were insistent that they tell their SO why? As the why doesn't change the outcome, why the need to inflict additional pain on the SO? I just don't understand. The relationship is over, why not just let them go with their dignity intact?


In her case, she was living with her partner and owed him some semblance of an explanation instead of leaving him to wonder what he did to drive her away. She did him very dirty by having an EA in the workplace and dumping him at Christmas. I hope he gets wind of her and her boss hooking up and reports them to the employer. A little poetic justice might come of it in the form of their firing.


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## Jamieboy (Jan 14, 2021)

*Deidre* said:


> I guess it comes down to if you’d want to know. Would you be upset finding out years later that your spouse had an affair of any type, but didn’t tell you? I would. I’d wonder then if the marriage was a lie. That’s why being honest about having an affair, is best. I think when people lie about one thing, it becomes easier to just keep lying.
> 
> From my observation, most spouses who lie or keep these things from their spouse, aren’t doing so to spare their spouse’s feelings, they’re doing it because they don’t want to get divorced and face the consequences of their spouse having a choice in the situation.


But that's not what's happening in this scenario, the relationship is over, its the reason tendered that is the key issue for me


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## Jamieboy (Jan 14, 2021)

Tested_by_stress said:


> In her case, she was living with her partner and owed him some semblance of an explanation instead of leaving him to wonder what he did to drive her away. She did him very dirty by having an EA in the workplace and dumping him at Christmas. I hope he gets wind of her and her boss hooking up and reports them to the employer. A little poetic justice might come of it in the form of their firing.


I've been the receiving end of some pretty brutal dumpings, but never felt the need for revenge. I'll maybe start a thread on that too, because I wonder what the benefits/perceived benefits are for that


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Tested_by_stress said:


> In her case, she was living with her partner and owed him some semblance of an explanation instead of leaving him to wonder what he did to drive her away. She did him very dirty by having an EA in the workplace and dumping him at Christmas. I hope he gets wind of her and her boss hooking up and reports them to the employer. A little poetic justice might come of it in the form of their firing.


Why would firing be a hoped for outcome?

They are all adults with individual agency. Why would one want the other fired? Shouldn't they both just be adults about it? Living together didn't work out. So what.

Screaming for firing shows one of the two just want to be childishly spiteful.

Fn grow up already.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

Jamieboy said:


> But that's not what's happening in this scenario, the relationship is over, its the reason tendered that is the key issue for me


Maybe some people just don’t want to carry that lie around so they share it? Yea, I don’t know. If there was an affair going on during the marriage, I’m sure that helped to cause the demise of the marriage because the cheater was distracted and probably not giving their best to the marriage. I guess people have their reasons.


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## Tdbo (Sep 8, 2019)

Jamieboy said:


> Well you're in fact dead wrong about that in this context, you wish it weren't so but it doesn't make it true fellamelad


Not even close Skip.


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## Not (Jun 12, 2017)

I’m having trouble believing that a liar could genuinely care about the other persons feelings to begin with. Where is the mutual respect in the scenario?


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## Bluesclues (Mar 30, 2016)

Jamieboy said:


> I think that a superficial reason to break up with someone is just as valid as any other. The dumper, needs to be true to themselves about what they need from a relationship.
> 
> Giving an example of a superficial reason, would you advocate that a dumper tell the dumpee that the reason is they have an inadequate manhood? As opposed to saying we aren't sexually compatible and holding hard to that?
> 
> ...


You do see that the benefit of that lie was for yourself, right? I don’t think you were wrong to do it, but it spared you the consequences of looking like a superficial jerk and you got to maintain the friendship. If she had been told the truth she likely wouldn’t have wanted to carry on the friendship, so you took away her agency in the matter. Framing lies to spare others feelings as purely altruistic is the issue.


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## Not (Jun 12, 2017)

Jamieboy said:


> I think that a superficial reason to break up with someone is just as valid as any other. The dumper, needs to be true to themselves about what they need from a relationship.
> 
> Giving an example of a superficial reason, would you advocate that a dumper tell the dumpee that the reason is they have an inadequate manhood? As opposed to saying we aren't sexually compatible and holding hard to that?
> 
> ...


In this scenario, it was a kindness. I’ve had to do something similar with a man. No way was I going to shred his self confidence because I wasn’t happy with his skills in the bedroom. But by doing this I wasn’t hiding anything I had done behind his back.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Jamieboy said:


> I'm finding a lot of responses quite interesting, so thanks for those of you who took the time to reply. However, 2 posters undermined themselves by suggesting that because I hold a different view to them, I am somehow deficient as a human being. To you guys I say, it is you who are deficient, insulting someone because they hold a different point of view (even if it's faulty) will never ever achieve a positive change.
> 
> To all others, I'm seeing that past history would inform if you were likely to accept a reason other than the brutal truth.


Well, you can actually refer to posters and question their conclusions.

I claimed your views were unhealthy and not conducive to maturity which can be demonstrated.

That's not an insult or calling you a name.

You really might believe lying and not accepting responsibility for actions and choices are healthy and conducive to positive growth but I think you would have a difficult time convincing others.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Jamieboy said:


> I think that a superficial reason to break up with someone is just as valid as any other. The dumper, needs to be true to themselves about what they need from a relationship.
> 
> Giving an example of a superficial reason, would you advocate that a dumper tell the dumpee that the reason is they have an inadequate manhood? As opposed to saying we aren't sexually compatible and holding hard to that?
> 
> ...


My wife gained weight once and we addressed it together. I wasn't negative about it and very supportive.

She found what worked for her and got in the best shape of her life.

It doesn't have to be such a negative to be honest.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Jamieboy said:


> I'm finding a lot of responses quite interesting, so thanks for those of you who took the time to reply. However, 2 posters undermined themselves by suggesting that because I hold a different view to them, I am somehow deficient as a human being. To you guys I say, it is you who are deficient, insulting someone because they hold a different point of view (even if it's faulty) will never ever achieve a positive change.
> 
> To all others, I'm seeing that past history would inform if you were likely to accept a reason other than the brutal truth.


Spell it out. 
Which posters. Which responses. Don't weeny out and show lack of confidence by not being clear.


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## Jamieboy (Jan 14, 2021)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Spell it out.
> Which posters. Which responses. Don't weeny out and show lack of confidence by not being clear.


They know who they are, and I won't be baited in an Internet forum. But nice try


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Jamieboy said:


> Didn't want thread jack so created a new thread to understand this better. I'm willing to change my opinion if someone comes up with good argument.
> 
> I just came from another thread where the OP emotionally cheated and decided to end their current relationship. However, lots of posters were insistent that they tell their SO why? As the why doesn't change the outcome, why the need to inflict additional pain on the SO? I just don't understand. The relationship is over, why not just let them go with their dignity intact?


How is lying about the reason for breaking up kinder?

The person may wrongfully blame themselves and hurt more un the long run when it had nothing to do with them. It's kinder to hurt them upfront instead of subjecting them to extended agony.

A person with empathy gets this. The only person lying is easier for is the liar, so they have to see what their selfishness wrought or feel guilt. 

As far as I know, most people with a moral compass understand this. Maybe your question should be why you don't.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Jamieboy said:


> They know who they are, and I won't be baited in an Internet forum. But nice try


You mean nice dodge on your part. Not being able to be clear, concise, direct, and confident enough to own your positions appears to be a weakness to work on. It will help in all your relationships.

So, nice try. Or since I don't have an issue being clear; really it was the weeny response expected.


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## frenchpaddy (May 31, 2021)

SOME PEOPLE JUST CAN4T TELL THE TRUTH 
It is like as if they can't tell what the truth is , 
like the one I am a virgin even though there is a 3 year old holding on to them 
worse you never missed a slice off a cut loaf


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## frenchpaddy (May 31, 2021)

they say it is best to tell the truth as you will recall that if asked again , people that tell lies or try to cover up things have a way of coming up with what fits 
but if asked again forget what story they told so a different story get told , 
others know there is something not right because the stories don't line up , 

in telling the truth it is important to do it for the right reason and not just to clear your mind of guilt 
but you have to weigh up if it is best sometimes not to tell , but that takes us into the land of make-believe 

so it is best to judge that one with each case


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## Jamieboy (Jan 14, 2021)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> You mean nice dodge on your part. Not being able to be clear, concise, direct, and confident enough to own your positions appears to be a weakness to work on. It will help in all your relationships.
> 
> So, nice try. Or since I don't have an issue being clear; really it was the weeny response expected.


Oh no, now you've made really really cross


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

Everybody lies. Once you accept that it makes navigating through life so much easier.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

gaius said:


> So tell that partner you cheated on them and grab your badge, join the club. But for a lot of other people who have experienced pain like watching someone you love die of cancer, losing a child, having parents who didn't love you, infidelity isn't the biggest thing in the world you have to deal with and taking that spiritual journey of honesty and initialisms is more harmful than helpful.


I think, to suggest that “infidelity isn’t the biggest thing in the world you have to deal with”, represents a pretty dim view of what marriage can be. You’re taking vows to spend your entire life with someone, to take care of them, to fully commit.


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## Tested_by_stress (Apr 1, 2021)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Why would firing be a hoped for outcome?
> 
> They are all adults with individual agency. Why would one want the other fired? Shouldn't they both just be adults about it? Living together didn't work out. So what.
> 
> ...


She pretty much ruined Christmas for her ex going forward. That happens when trauma occurs during a signifigant time of the year. My aunt's in laws were killed instantly in a head on collision in the early 80's on Christmas Eve. Christmas has been a somber event that neither looks forward to to this very day because of the trauma tied to it.


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## gaius (Nov 5, 2020)

Casual Observer said:


> I think, to suggest that “infidelity isn’t the biggest thing in the world you have to deal with”, represents a pretty dim view of what marriage can be. You’re taking vows to spend your entire life with someone, to take care of them, to fully commit.


Yeah, and sometimes life plans don't work out. Sometimes people let you down. It happens. Becoming the victim of it doesn't deserve to work itself into your self identity. 

My wife has been cheated on. Not by me. She barely talks about it. Doesn't need to. I don't think it even ranks in her top 10 of heinous stuff she's dealt with. God bless the people who find that to be the worst pain they've ever suffered. They've lived a charmed life.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Jamieboy said:


> I'm finding a lot of responses quite interesting, so thanks for those of you who took the time to reply. However, 2 posters undermined themselves by suggesting that because I hold a different view to them, I am somehow deficient as a human being. To you guys I say, it is you who are deficient, insulting someone because they hold a different point of view (even if it's faulty) will never ever achieve a positive change.
> 
> To all others, I'm seeing that past history would inform if you were likely to accept a reason other than the brutal truth.


You give yourself away. You said it is ok to hold different views but in the next breathe said other views (except your own) were faulty! _sigh_ So obviously you don't believe your own words,


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

@Jamienboy, I suspect you are young compared to many of the posters here, would I be right in this. Our views on relationship rights and wrongs change over time. The things I did and how I ended relationships with young men in my 20s would not be what I would do now in my 50s (if i were dating). People change, mature and are often more honest with themselves and others due to life experiences and the passage of time.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

We get it J boy. Lying=good in your limited world and truth=bad.😋

Seriously. Write a book. It will probably sell well to the narcissistic morons multiplying in our society.


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## Jamieboy (Jan 14, 2021)

aine said:


> You give yourself away. You said it is ok to hold different views but in the next breathe said other views (except your own) were faulty! _sigh_ So obviously you don't believe your own words,


And you give yourself away by reading into my post something that wasn't there. The in brackets part was referencing that my view could be faulty. So in fact I am prepared to accept I'm wrong on occasion. 

So now you have some clarity that you were wrong, are you big enough to acknowledge that and apologise for calling someone out on a faulty assumption?


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## Jamieboy (Jan 14, 2021)

ConanHub said:


> We get it J boy. Lying=good in your limited world and truth=bad.😋
> 
> Seriously. Write a book. It will probably sell well to the narcissistic morons multiplying in our society.


I see you as a regular and prolific poster in the forum, and I read your posts. Sometimes I agree with them sometimes, sometimes I don't. Your advise is always delivered as if what comes out of your mouth is pure 24 carat gold, I respect that you back your opinions.

However, it's you who has a limited view IMHO, you've been with same woman for years, a fact your immensely proud of, but you think because this is the case you can hold yourself and your opinions up as the gold standard of how to act and behave as a man in a relationship. 

Maybe if you were more worldly, you would be able to look at yourself and realise Mrs c and your heavily influenced by you family are not representing of all human kind.

But as you try to give the impression across this forum, you are the big alpha and could never accept that you may not be the big dog with all the answers.

Your continued efforts to belittle me and my opinions just makes me deaf to your possibly good advise. 

I will head off your inevitable response about needing to stop being a sensitive snow flake by saying, if I'm a sensitive and immature person, I accept that about myself. No amount of passive aggressive forum posts from you or anyone else is going to make me feel bad about it.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Honesty is always the best policy. In a good marriage there are no lies or hidden secrets.


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## Jamieboy (Jan 14, 2021)

aine said:


> @Jamienboy, I suspect you are young compared to many of the posters here, would I be right in this. Our views on relationship rights and wrongs change over time. The things I did and how I ended relationships with young men in my 20s would not be what I would do now in my 50s (if i were dating). People change, mature and are often more honest with themselves and others due to life experiences and the passage of time.


I think I'm probably at the lower end age wise, 43? I'm very honest with myself and accept whole heartedly that I don't have all the answers. My typical response to most situations is to shield people from harm as much as possible, even if that makes lying a necessity. I realise this is morally grey and it doesn't make me feel good about myself sometimes. I also recognise that my motives aren't always purely altruistic. 

But I do sincerely believe I'm motivated out a desire to be kind, if not necessarily good. Reading these forums is a funny thing for me, I came here not as a BS but as a wayward and so accept I get a lot stick for my opinions.

I stick around mainly because I feel I can add by explaining the motivations and thought processes of someone who believes they are in love when having an affair. 

I also rail against some of the triggered responses I see from those who have been betrayed, because I see some of the advise doled out here as destructive attempts to make all waywards pay for the hurt done to the forum members.

One of my biggest hates of TAM is when you have made a mistake or series of poor and selfish choices, you are a write off as a human being with poor character. That's not how I view myself or others who have cheated. Some people learn from their mistakes, some don't, I am trying to be one that learns.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Jamieboy said:


> I see you as a regular and prolific poster in the forum, and I read your posts. Sometimes I agree with them sometimes, sometimes I don't. Your advise is always delivered as if what comes out of your mouth is pure 24 carat gold, I respect that you back your opinions.
> 
> However, it's you who has a limited view IMHO, you've been with same woman for years, a fact your immensely proud of, but you think because this is the case you can hold yourself and your opinions up as the gold standard of how to act and behave as a man in a relationship.
> 
> ...


I'm just having a bit of fun.
You have to admit that your position on lying isn't that strong of a foundation now won't you?

I was a wild man before becoming half civilized by my wife btw.

I know from experience about the walk on the wild side.

Peace and cheers and a goodnight to you.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Jamieboy said:


> I think I'm probably at the lower end age wise, 43? I'm very honest with myself and accept whole heartedly that I don't have all the answers. My typical response to most situations is to shield people from harm as much as possible, even if that makes lying a necessity. I realise this is morally grey and it doesn't make me feel good about myself sometimes. I also recognise that my motives aren't always purely altruistic.
> 
> But I do sincerely believe I'm motivated out a desire to be kind, if not necessarily good. Reading these forums is a funny thing for me, I came here not as a BS but as a wayward and so accept I get a lot stick for my opinions.
> 
> ...


Hmm. This barbarian approves.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Jamieboy said:


> One of my biggest hates of TAM is when you have made a mistake or series of poor and selfish choices, you are a write off as a human being with poor character. That's not how I view myself or others who have cheated. Some people learn from their mistakes, some don't, I am trying to be one that learns.


That's people and life in general, not just TAM. You see this play out for all kinds of bad decisions, not just infidelity. 

The older you are when you make selfish choices, the worse people judge you. Teenagers and young adults are expected to screw up, not grown folk who should be more responsible and empathetic. Btw... You're also judging us for our "backwards thinking " because it doesn't validate yours. 

The facts is, everyone judges everyone else for something or the other, we're still tribal. When you show yourself untrustworthy, you're put out of the likemindes group, it's a survival mechanism. 

Disclaimer, I'm a former BS , but your peer, at 43.


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## Jamieboy (Jan 14, 2021)

ConanHub said:


> I'm just having a bit of fun.
> You have to admit that your position on lying isn't that strong of a foundation now won't you?
> 
> I was a wild man before becoming half civilized by my wife btw.
> ...


It's contextual as to my position. I lie by omission frequently. To give 2 examples that ironically I have never actually perpetrated, but wouldn't hesitate to lie about.

1. Your wife buys a new dress that she loves, she says to you, does this dress look good on me? Irrespective of my opinion the answer is yes, because I can see it makes her feel good.

2. Your daughter says, daddy I'm so fat, I hate myself. (She's a little over weight but not unhealthy) The answer would be a resounding no you're not. Not only because it would hurt her to be truthful, but also because it may lead to her having all sorts of other unhealthy behaviours.

Going back to my original post. As a man I have a healthy ego, which means by extension I want to be top dog among my peers. I make no apology for that. Had I been on the receiving end of a dumping I would prefer to believe that the reason for being dumped was not that a better suitor had come along.

So when ending a relationship with someone in my youth, I would always go to great lengths to explain that the problem was with me, I would list any number of reasons as to why I was an unfit or unsuitable partner, but mostly I made absolutely sure that I never laid any blame at my exs feet. I consider this to be kind if not good, by the living in truth metric. 

Again I make no apology for this stance, its who I am. But I can see from reading some of the responses here, most notably from women, that they would prefer to know if there was someone else I considered a more suitable partner. So maybe my approach back in the day was misguided, buy forgive me if I have a hard time accepting that due my own biases.

It goes back to the old axiom, do on to others


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## Jamieboy (Jan 14, 2021)

TXTrini said:


> That's people and life in general, not just TAM. You see this play out for all kinds of bad decisions, not just infidelity.
> 
> The older you are when you make selfish choices, the worse people judge you. Teenagers and young adults are expected to screw up, not grown folk who should be more responsible and empathetic. Btw... You're also judging us for our "backwards thinking " because it doesn't validate yours.
> 
> ...


I'm going to read that you think I'm a forward thinker, so thank you. 😁

I totally understand yours and others positions. I as an individual am very accepting of the human condition. To f up is human, some f ups cause more damage than others. 

Cheating is one of the worst. Assessing my past behaviour, I did myself as much harm as my spouse. I never ever for one minute thought I would have the cheater label attached to me. It's a stain on my character I can never remove. 

If I had ended up divorced, by a lot of people's logic I would need to disclose this fact to all my future partners as if I was a registered sex offender. 

Reading TAM has informed me there are broadly 2 types of cheater. The selfish entitled cake eaters, and those like me who arrogantly thought they were unassailable and as such could swim in all the shark infested waters and not attract sharks. 

I do not excuse what I did, it was a sh*tty thing to do, but a combination of poor boundaries, midlife and a truly narcissistic AP led me to be a selfish entitled a hole. 

When you pride yourself on being none of those things, it can really do a number on your self worth. Again, no excuses, just a sober out of the fog assessment of the circumstances that led me to turn my back on all I thought I was. 

So I stick around and learn, argue and hopefully sometimes offer some insight to those who f'd up as bad as me.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

@Jamieboy, I really appreciate your posts. I’m glad you’re here! 🤗


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Jamieboy said:


> I'm going to read that you think I'm a forward thinker, so thank you. 😁
> 
> I totally understand yours and others positions. I as an individual am very accepting of the human condition. To f up is human, some f ups cause more damage than others.
> 
> ...


Ha, I didn't say that. I said you might think that.

Anyways, redemption will always be earned if someone truly wants it and puts in the work. Just realize even then, it's not out of spite that people will avoid a known cheater; it's self-preservation and hedging your bets to avoid a known risk. 

Another thing is infidelity is something many of us have experienced a lot, in my case, in my FOO, and in my culture. It's certainly something I wished I'd paid attention to in my ex's FOO because the way it was accepted certainly shaped his acceptance that it was "not the worst thing". He never apologized, so I'll continue thinking of him like  

One thing you might consider is how much lying by omission or "to be kind" is really altruistic to spare someone else's feelings, or if it's for comfort to avoid conflict. The thing about lies is one lie begets another, and another, then you get too comfortable then BAM! You're living a lie and don't recognize who you are anymore. 

Btw, if someone asks me a question they very well know the answer to like "does my ass look fat in this dress" I'll ask if they're fishing for compliments or truly want to know. Most people know the answer to hot-button questions like that; which IMO is just downright manipulative. As for your daughter, I got nothing, man. I don't have kids and have never had to deal with that but I've read that social media is brutal on kids' self-esteem (and everyone else's!)

I get what you're saying about being hurt by priding yourself on not being "that kind of person". How about if you reframed it to try to be someone who didn't disappoint yourself? That's what I cling to when I try to avoid destructive behavior, even if no-one else will ever know. It's not foolproof, cause I'm nowhere near perfect, but it helps a lot to stay the course.

It's really good of your wife to give you another shot; I hope you two make a good go of it. All the best.


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## frenchpaddy (May 31, 2021)

Diana7 said:


> Honesty is always the best policy. In a good marriage there are no lies or hidden secrets.


true the deeper the honesty with each other the better the two can open up to each other 
if you have say your phone while I think one should not go spying on the others phone but I all so think there should be nothing on that phone that you need to hide , 
so if my phone is broken and I ask them for their phone to make a call or send a message to one of my contacts if the reaction is no 
THEN THERE IS A PROBLEM and I am going to start to think whan is he or she covering up 

IN a marriage there should an openness with phones pc and all types of media
I have seen to many people when asked to test their loyalty get found out 

same with married women with male friends , I would say 50% of male friends to a married woman if asked or put to the test ,want to hook up with her ,
if you think I am wrong and your a married woman with a friend that is male or better if you has 2 male friends or if your wife has , get the wife to phone the friends and say 
John is away tonight would you like to come over and we can have a bit of fun together but John can not know 

as DI said Honesty is all ways the best policy but you need first be Honest to yourself 
a lot of people live a lie they try to live by other peoples standards and put out an image of having it together and all ways been right 
it is why we are not open to others peoples view we see it here when you get a one post op post a topic and you get 20 pages of response often saying the same thing over and over 
it is like shouting at someone to get your point across


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