# The art of fighting without fighting



## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

In his thread about “Muck Tests”, AFEH said:
“_For me that’s a total and absolute failure of a shet test. It’s meeting aggression with aggression and who knows where that will end? If it’s a shet test within a long term, or even a short term relationship it’s a declaration of open warfare. It indicates a massive loss of respect (if there ever was any) for both the partners and things can only get worse. The aggression will escalate as each shet tests the other more and more_.”

In response, I said
“Hence the need to learn the way of fighting without fighting. You're right - if you meet force with force, you don't know where it will end. All you can say, is that in the context of what is supposed to be a loving relationship, it probably won't be a good place.”

The art of fighting without fighting had come up a day or two before, in the thread about “The Way of the Superior Man”

AFEH said:
"_While the wife can invoke her destructress, we cannot invoke or call on our masculine destroyer._"

And I said: “The way is to learn the art of fighting without fighting (see Enter the Dragon...)”

I claim no great intellect or insight, but this is my view, coloured by my experience.
Mrs Beane and I can be a couple of right nasty, sharp tongued buggers if we put our minds to it. We can wound each other with words quite easily. Also, we’re both martial artists. If it came to a stand-up head-to-head, it really could go either way. 
Bottom line? If either of us invokes a destroyer, of any sort, we BOTH lose. 

In Enter the Dragon, Bruce Lee defeats an opponent through "the art of fighting without fighting". He persuades his opponent onto a boat, then declines to follow him, cutting the boat adrift to leave his opponent huffing and puffing but unable to hurt Lee, but also at no risk of getting hurt by Lee either.

The idea came from Kensei Tsukahara Bokuden. Kensei Tsukahara knew he would kill his opponent in a swordfight, and that his opponent might injure him terribly if they fought without weapons, so he found a way to show how he could overcome his opponent, at no risk to either.

Tsukahara showed he was the master. But no one was hurt. Had either he or his opponent fought their “own way”, the likelihood is that one would have died. Tsukahara understood the consequences, then found a way to win by wisdom, guile and deflection.

I know how to use distraction, humour and an ever-changing series of tedious anecdotes to “beat” Mrs Beane in arguments without anyone getting hurt, either physically or psychologically.

As a martial artist, one learns to spar – to fight without deliberately causing injury. Couples need to find a way to spar, and to learn to “fight without fighting”. What works for me won’t work for everyone. MEM has some great ideas that work for him and his wife – I’ll tell you for nothing they wouldn’t work with me and Mrs Beane, but read what he says, and what I say. Some of it might work for you, or none of it. In a sense you have to become your OWN Kensei – to develop you OWN school of “fighting without fighting”. But you have to learn it.

Why? Because there’s two alternatives:

2 Fight back the way you are strongest – meet force with force, metaphorical blade against bare hand. And I’ll tell you something. I don’t know who will win. But you will BOTH lose.
Or 
2 Don’t fight back, stand and take it, and be more and more beaten down. Until you do 1) anyway.


----------



## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

SB in our time together my wife and I had some classic, would be legendary fights. My wife was far more of a “killer” than I, immensely skilled with the foil used in fencing and she used it like a very long, sharp pointed pin, absolutely deadly with it from seemingly 20 yards away. I really can chuckle at it now but it was not at all funny at the time.

In these occasions I responded to my wounds with the angry man and I was truly amazed at her courage in front me and even in the face of all the pandemonium going on, in would go the foil again but this time between different ribs. Sometimes she foiled round the back of me while clearing standing in front. I swear she was using some kind of magic!




Sawney Beane said:


> In Enter the Dragon, Bruce Lee defeats an opponent through "the art of fighting without fighting". He persuades his opponent onto a boat, then declines to follow him, cutting the boat adrift to leave his opponent huffing and puffing but unable to hurt Lee, but also at no risk of getting hurt by Lee either.


Your story above is analogous to what I was trying to get across with boundaries of intolerance. In the above, the boundary is the water between the two men.

With personal boundaries for me it’s about not letting the anger generated by the pain from the initial, first wound, turn into aggression and subsequent revengeful attacks. The boundary is to prevent escalation. In effect the wounded party after asserting their boundary vocally just walks away from the aggressor, leaving distance, the water, between them. Until such time angers have calmed down and both parties are able to be reasonable.

Of course if the initial aggressor just keeps ignoring boundaries and keeps attacking then there’s a very big problem.


----------



## YinPrincess (Jul 31, 2011)

Are we talking about fighting or testing? These are two very different things, however one can evolve into the other rather quickly.



> I know how to use distraction, humour and an ever-changing series of tedious anecdotes to “beat” Mrs Beane in arguments without anyone getting hurt, either physically or psychologically.


I disagree that this is either "healthy" or "harmless". I find this to be passive-aggressive/avoident and could constitute "gas-lighting" or psychological abuse, depending on the circumstances. How does deflection resolve any disputes?

In your martial arts analogies you forget one very important thing - the opponents are not in relationships with one another. Sure these techniques are useful ideas outside the context of a relationship... But I think they would cause resentment within.

I would say there are a number of articles and pointers out there for "fighting fairly" but as mentioned before, some boundaries don't seem enforceable if you are with someone who oversteps them. (I know from my own experience how aggravating this is, given my marriage).

I think this will be another interesting discussion, but I'm not sure if the endless debating will leave us with any useful information...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

AFEH said:


> SB in our time together my wife and I had some classic, would be legendary fights. My wife was far more of a “killer” than I, immensely skilled with the foil used in fencing and she used it like a very long, sharp pointed pin, absolutely deadly with it from seemingly 20 yards away. I really can chuckle at it now but it was not at all funny at the time.
> 
> In these occasions I responded to my wounds with the angry man and I was truly amazed at her courage in front me and even in the face of all the pandemonium going on, in would go the foil again but this time between different ribs. Sometimes she foiled round the back of me while clearing standing in front. I swear she was using some kind of magic!
> 
> ...


In a sense, it's about being able to simultaneously escalate and de-escalate the conflict.

On the one hand, you are not avoiding the conflict, not allowing yourself to be beaten, not having your boundary violated, so there is (arguably) an escalation. You are most certainly not ignoring or shrinking from an attack.

However, you are de-escalating the conflict - not meeting force with force, replying to an attack with all of your power.

At its best, it allows a person to defend themselves without inflicting hurt, to "win" (maintain their boundaries) without destroying their opponent. At worst, it allows that person to give their attacker an opportunity to draw back, to realise that this IS the best way out.

As you say, it can't make an aggressor stop ignoring boundaries. In my story, had the ruffian continued to threaten Kensei Tsukahara, there would have been only one outcome. Tsukahara would have killed his opponent. By "fighting without fighting", Tsukahara beat his opponent, without killing him, and allowed the opponent to retain a degree of face.

The downside of course, is just how often is there a bloody boat handy at a moment like that?!


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

SB,
This is a great post. In fact my father taught me from early on the "minimal use of force" doctrine that is described below:

Do not hurt when holding is enough
Do not wound when hurting is enough
Do not maim when wounding is enough
And kill not when maiming is enough
The greatest warrior is he who does the least harm possible in any given situation

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
My view of "holding" is holding firm on boundaries. Ideally with humor, if need be body language, and beyond that a marked drop in interaction levels. 

Deliberate hurting your partner is generally counterproductive regardless of what they do. I have many prior posts on here - that I would re-write if given the chance. Some of them were written in anger, and promoted a level of aggression that I no longer believe to be helpful. 

As for Mrs. MEM - the fact that she likes to spar/wrestle is a personal preference of hers. 




Sawney Beane said:


> In his thread about “Muck Tests”, AFEH said:
> “_For me that’s a total and absolute failure of a shet test. It’s meeting aggression with aggression and who knows where that will end? If it’s a shet test within a long term, or even a short term relationship it’s a declaration of open warfare. It indicates a massive loss of respect (if there ever was any) for both the partners and things can only get worse. The aggression will escalate as each shet tests the other more and more_.”
> 
> In response, I said
> ...


----------



## YinPrincess (Jul 31, 2011)

How does one "hold" boundaries by using humor?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Boundary: I am unwilling to perform acts of service when they are requested in a disrespectful way.
Example: 
Spouse1 (s1): in an irritated tone, snaps at S2: " we are out of XYZ": subtext and it is somehow your fault 
S2: babe, I know you feel bad about forgetting to buy more last week, and forgetting to put it on the list for me two days ago, don't worry, I really am learning not to get mad at you over little things, and to lower my xpectations for how long I have to wait for an apology in this type situation

A quick smile and a shrug from you and then move on. 




YinPrincess said:


> How does one "hold" boundaries by using humor?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## YinPrincess (Jul 31, 2011)

In the example above, (which is very illustrative, thank you), is S2 not blaming S1 for the fact that they are out of "xyz"?

S1 should not snap and make a request that isn't even phrased as a question, honestly.

In my case, and I don't mean to derail here, but this is an interesting learning opportunity, I, as S1 could say, "Honey, we are out of "xyz", would you mind going to the store and getting some?" and I would STILL get S2's response, if not more... "Well, you should have remembered while you were at the store!" "It's not MY fault you didn't tell me we were out!" Etc.

How should one cope with that? Honestly, I think my husband is so defensive, it comes out, even when it's unwarranted or unprovoked. Or perhaps, he just wants to off-put me so that I don't feel as though asking him to help me out as a partner is going to be productive in any way... Is there any way I can STOP that from happening, so that perhaps he would just respond, "Sure babe! Is there anything else I can get while I'm there?" Or is that just "beta"?? :scratchhead: 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Yin,
In my scenario - the intent was to banter a bit to let the other person see how easily the situation can be turned around.

If you don't mind my asking: in the scenario you describe, why are you asking him to go?
1. if it is because you are clearly doing something else and he is free that is ok. However, if it is something you forgot to get at the store, best to start with: sorry I forgot to get this, would you mind making a quick run to get it?

Here is my reaction to this stuff:
- the night time stuff is all (water, etc.) a version of "do you love me"? From her to me. It takes 1-2 minutes and the request is delivered in a cute voice - how can you say no to that
- day time stuff caused by her lack of organization - I don't get defensive - I do sometimes ask her to do it because our workloads are exceptionally unbalanced right now - mine is way higher

Overall workload balance is a factor. And the odd I forgot is different than not vein organized



UOTE=YinPrincess;872198]In the example above, (which is very illustrative, thank you), is S2 not blaming S1 for the fact that they are out of "xyz"?

S1 should not snap and make a request that isn't even phrased as a question, honestly.

In my case, and I don't mean to derail here, but this is an interesting learning opportunity, I, as S1 could say, "Honey, we are out of "xyz", would you mind going to the store and getting some?" and I would STILL get S2's response, if not more... "Well, you should have remembered while you were at the store!" "It's not MY fault you didn't tell me we were out!" Etc.

How should one cope with that? Honestly, I think my husband is so defensive, it comes out, even when it's unwarranted or unprovoked. Or perhaps, he just wants to off-put me so that I don't feel as though asking him to help me out as a partner is going to be productive in any way... Is there any way I can STOP that from happening, so that perhaps he would just respond, "Sure babe! Is there anything else I can get while I'm there?" Or is that just "beta"?? :scratchhead: 
_Posted via Mobile Device_[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

LOL on the beta comment. 

Serious question: do you differentiate between asking him to do something that you were supposed to do? And asking him to do something to complete what he initially started.




YinPrincess said:


> In the example above, (which is very illustrative, thank you), is S2 not blaming S1 for the fact that they are out of "xyz"?
> 
> S1 should not snap and make a request that isn't even phrased as a question, honestly.
> 
> ...


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Jeff/BC (Apr 1, 2012)

Fighting without fighting? That sounds a lot like "fight a war for peace" and a whole ton of other paradoxes. The question I always have around this topic is "Why is fighting necessary to start with and how did anyone hope to gain from such an endeavor?" 

Whenever I read of spouses fighting I always get this image of two people on a doubles tennis team. They are viciously bickering back and forth as the ball sails past them. Eventually, one of them declares proudly, "I win" just as the umpire declares, "You both lose."


----------



## YinPrincess (Jul 31, 2011)

MEM - Thank you for commenting. Usually if I ask my husband to get something it is because I am A.) Preoccupied with our newborn, B.) Preoccupied with cleaning, or C.) Preoccupied with cooking. My husband tends to do over 80% of the shopping anyhow, since it's "his" money and because I take care of everything else other than the working and shopping. He often feels overloaded and overwhelmed which is why I try to pull my weight in other ways. I never snap at him when I'm making a request; I say it sweetly and phrase it in a question, I'm so very careful to not be "demanding". Despite this, he will very often get snippy with me, and this hurts my feelings. It's been known to start "fights" which is why I ask about it. I hate fighting with him. I, too, feel overwhelmed in all that I do on a daily basis, but he rarely recognizes this. Many times I will say outright, "I feel overwhelmed, would you mind watching the baby for a few minutes" etc.

As for your second question, I DO differentiate between what is "his" and what is "mine", although from time to time these things switch according to who is doing what currently. I think it's important to be flexible.

On a side note, I resent the fact that he gets two days off a week, and I don't. The last time I asked him to spend one of the weekend nights getting up with baby so that I can sleep, (and so we subsequently both get at least one day off a week), was ill received, despite my approaching him in a delicate and open manner. 

There are MANY MANY times where I am busting my booty to clean the house, wash the dishes, care for our pets and 3 month old... All while he casually sits back to enjoy a book. (He deserves this downtime, but it seems as though he gets the lion's share of it...)

Since I don't want to do anything that can be considered "sh!t testing" and I want to avoid conflict as well as being overwhelmed, I am finding it difficult, (I am finding him difficult, lol) to compromise in such a way that everyone is satisfied.

In your original scenario, my husband would not be saying these things for humor, he would be saying them because he is annoyed and irritated, no matter HOW nicely I try to ask him.

Perhaps I can use the same techniques prescribed for men here... :lol:

Thanks, and my apologies again to the OP for derailing...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## YinPrincess (Jul 31, 2011)

Hi, I am Yin's husband. I tried registering via mobile, but it seems as though I need a computer... Here is my take on things...

I am absolutely gratefull for the contributions my wife makes......as being solely responsible for finances, we, like most couples take the traditional roles of doing things. I work full-time during the days and she taking over the equally demanding task of looking over and caring for our three year old. In addition in all fairness, I willingly take on the responsibility of cooking the vast majority of the time. As well as feeding the dogs. What bothers me is that I feel other tasks are occasionally added on that don't carry the urgency of the fore mentioned duties we both share. Such as picking up specific food items,when the fridge is well stocked with plenty to prepare dinner. Another issue is what I feel is the large amount of time it takes to clean the house because she is apprehensive to let the dogs spend most of there time outdoors in our gated yard. Why make it harder on ourselves and eliminate what could be quality free time to unwind with enjoying time together or taking time to indulge hobbies. I don't see the value in making things harder than they are when both parties contribute so much and are often pushed to their edge. I posted since my wife encouraged me to, being that there are other couples with m
ore experience who may have tackled similar situations. Any advice and perspective w
ould be appreciated and helpfullm
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## YinPrincess (Jul 31, 2011)

I'm not going to turn this into a pissing contest, but in my opinion my husband is dismissing the time he spends on leisure activities and how often things of an urgent nature take a backseat to things that should be prioritized in a more efficient manner. On the nights he cooks, (and rarely this is cooking - he prepares a simple salad and that is often my only meal of the day, since he refuses to get me items I can eat immediately and not require leaving our infant daughter alone for 20 to 30 minutes so that I can prepare a lunch).

When he gets off of work, Mon thru Fri he is encouraged to veg for several hours before anything is asked of him. If I want to go downstairs to use the restroom or to shower, or even go to the store, I am constantly rushed, instead of being encouraged to take my own downtime. Even if it is just to use the bathroom.

So who is "p!ssing" who??

In any case I told him I welcome whatever he wants to write, as it is his point of view.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I will post more on this later in the week because wife and I split things in a similar manner. 
In the meantime you two need to make a grocery list that you both like since what he/she posted is in direct conflict. Being argue about who is right. Make the list and then use it.






YinPrincess said:


> I'm not going to turn this into a pissing contest, but in my opinion my husband is dismissing the time he spends on leisure activities and how often things of an urgent nature take a backseat to things that should be prioritized in a more efficient manner. On the nights he cooks, (and rarely this is cooking - he prepares a simple salad and that is often my only meal of the day, since he refuses to get me items I can eat immediately and not require leaving our infant daughter alone for 20 to 30 minutes so that I can prepare a lunch).
> 
> When he gets off of work, Mon thru Fri he is encouraged to veg for several hours before anything is asked of him. If I want to go downstairs to use the restroom or to shower, or even go to the store, I am constantly rushed, instead of being encouraged to take my own downtime. Even if it is just to use the bathroom.
> 
> ...


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

Do you mean you dont have stuff in the house to make a sandwich?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## YinPrincess (Jul 31, 2011)

We do use a grocery list, however my husband will elect to "forget" things as he sees fit. Anyhow, I don't want to derail the post any longer. I told him I wanted to start our own blog in which we can receive constructive criticism here. All he said was, "I'll think about it". :sigh:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------

