# Zero intimacy in our marriage



## Dragon72 (May 27, 2015)

I'm a male 45 and have been married to my wife 48 for 4 and a half years.

From the instability and intensity of her emotional states, displays of unfounded jealousy and profound insecurity, I have strongly suspected for a while that she has Borderline Personality Disorder.

We have a 3 year old son whom we both love very much.

When he was born she moved out of the marital bed and into our son's bed. She also started spending less and less time alone with me. When she puts our son to bed at 7pm, she goes to bed with him and I don't see her until the morning.

So now there's no time at all when it's just the two of us.

Once every couple of months she will suddenly appear in the evening wanting sex. We do it - well, she doesn't do much - and when it's over, she returns to our son's room.

When I have tried to say how lonely I feel with this situation, she reacts badly (consistent with BPD behaviour) and goes on the verbal offensive.

I'm a good guy and an excellent father. I work 12 hour days to put food on the table. I do more than my fair share of housework. I don't feel that I'm such an ogre or bad company that people should just not want to be around me, least of all my wife! During the daytime we generally get on okay - albeit with rough patches where the BPD rears its head.

It's gotten to the point, after years of spending my evenings alone, that I feel I can't let this situation go on. It's not just the sex that I want back, it's the emotional intimacy or even just adult companionship. I also fear greatly for the emotional development of our son, who is sleeping every night and nap time with his mother and is still in diapers at 3 years 4 months.

I feel I need to force the issue either with an incentive or an ultimatum. Or both. Simple appeals to her to spend more time with me are not working. 

How do you think I should approach it?


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## GuyInColorado (Dec 26, 2015)

Tell her how you feel. Tell her she 6 months to fix this. She goes to a psychologist to be assessed. She stops sleeping with your son and gets back in the bed. You both go see a marriage counsel. This is of course if you want to save your marriage. If you don't, don't waste your time or money. 

If she fails to do any of this, you turn her world upside down with a divorce. Does she work currently? Does she have a career? Either way, she'll be forced to work and support herself. You'll end up paying child support, maybe a little alimony, and see your son 50% of the time. Small price to pay to be free and find a woman you can spend the rest of your life with and have no regrets.


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## Vinnydee (Jan 4, 2016)

Your wife would not be the first wife to get married to have a child and then practically ignore her husband. One of my wife's girlfriends did that. Married a guy, got pregnant and when the kid was one year old she divorced her husband. There are also issues of bonding with the child more than the husband.

Sex produces the hormone Oxytocin which is the same one that emotionally bonds her to your child. Stop having sex and you eliminate the emotional bonding. Sounds like your wife can do with a visit to a Psychologist. I am being treated for depression and anxiety and my Doc made a big difference in the quality of my life. One other thing you can try is what we were told to do. Schedule one night a week that is mandatory for both of you. You can just lay next to each other and talk. You can make out, get naked, have sex or whatever. No pressure to do anything. Just something to progressively move towards having sex any way you like. Once you two do that, Oxytocin will be released. It can be released with just cuddling too in many people. What you are doing is gradually building up Oxytocin to emotionally bond again. Sex is one of those things that the more you have, the closer you get. The less you have, the less bonding between you and your wife. You need to jump start your sex life.

My first fiancee cheated on me so we split up but the underlying problem was a mental illness that plagued her for half of her life. She still insists that spirits talk to her and tell her to do things, which she does. Harmless things like telling fortunes over the phone and legally changing her last name. She ended up living in a commune for a few years, then slept with guys until they could not take her anymore and got pregnant by someone and married a guy who needed Green card. She stayed with him until he finished paying for her son's college tuition and then ran off with the woman she was cheating on him with. He was one of those clueless husbands who think it is OK because she only goes out with girls to clubs, shopping, etc.. She is now married to a woman. I dodged a bullet. My life would have been so bad had I married her, instead of the great one I have had with my wife. 

Sad to say that sometimes you have to cut your losses to save your life. If she does not want to seek help or try to reignite you sex life, it is not good to stay in a marriage like that. Staying for the sake of the kids is usually the parent's idea. They do not realize that the kid will grow up seeing a dysfunctional marriage and that will affect the child in his/her adult years. These days half the kids are from divorced parents so there is not the stigma that there used to be in my generation. Do you want your child to grow up using your marriage as a role model for marriage? Up to you of course, but it is very difficult to be with a person with a mental illness that does not want to get help. I understand that you love her, but she has already distanced herself from you and I suspect that if you left her, she would hardly notice. She has what she wants from you, so she is happy. You are not.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Dragon, welcome back. I'm sorry to hear that your marriage has not improved since you posted a thread in May 2015. You are fortunate, however, to have your young son. It is rare for a 44 year old woman to get pregnant. My understanding is that, from age 43 onward, success rates fall to around one to five live births for every 100 women .



Dragon72 said:


> I have strongly suspected for a while that she has *Borderline Personality Disorder*.... I feel I need to force the issue either with an incentive or an ultimatum. Or both.


Dragon, if she is a BPDer (i.e., has strong and persistent traits) and you are still unwilling to divorce her, I would suggest you insist on her seeking weekly therapy as a condition for your remaining in the marriage. The main problem with that approach -- as I learned after paying six psychologists to treat my BPDer exW in weekly therapy for 15 years, is that she likely will just play mind games with the therapists and her behavior will get worse. 

Another problem is that it is extremely difficult to know whether your W is actually making lasting improvements in therapy. Because BPDers are emotionally unstable, you will see a BPDer dramatically improving her behavior half the time. Even a roller coaster is seen to be racing upwards half the time. 

Like many smokers who are seen throwing away the "last pack" every 6 or 8 weeks, a high functioning BPDer typically will show dramatic improvements -- which, because you love her, you will be strongly inclined to perceive as a lasting change. Consequently, there are several actions I would recommend:
*
First*, see a psychologist to obtain a candid professional opinion on whether your W is exhibiting strong BPD traits as you believe. This confirmation is important not only for you but also for your young son. The latest study on BPD heritability indicates that, when one Parent has full-blown BPD, each child has roughly a 30% chance of developing it. (That figure is only suggestive, not definitive, because it is based on a small sample size.) As a responsible parent, your first action should be to whether there is a serious risk confronting your son. 

*Second*, consult with a divorce attorney who is experienced in dealing with child custody cases against a very vindictive spouse. If your W is a BPDer, the divorce and custody battle likely be get very nasty very quickly. It would be prudent to supplement that advice with tips offered by the book, _Splitting: Protecting Yourself while Divorcing a Borderline or Narcissist_. 

*Third*, start participating (or at least lurking) at BPDfamily.com, which offers eight separate message boards on various BPD issues. The ones that likely will be most helpful are the _"Detaching from a Borderline"_ board and _"Co-Parenting after the Split"_ board.

*Fourth*, while you're at BPDfamily, read the articles: Surviving a Breakup with Someone Suffering with BPD and Leaving a Partner with BPD. At other websites, I recommend these online articles: Fathers Divorcing, and High Risk Parenting, and Pain of Breaking Up, and Divorcing a Narcissist.

*Fifth*, read an explanation of how we excessive caregivers get to be this way during our childhood. The best explanation I've found is Shari Schreiber's article, Do You Love to be Needed? Schreiber argues that, due to childhood dynamics with parents, our desire to be _needed _(for what we can do) FAR exceeds our desire to be _loved_ (for the men we already are). If you've been married to a BPDer for over four years, you likely are an excessive caregiver like me.

*Sixth*, do not try to persuade your W of your believe that she exhibits strong BPD traits. If she is a BPDer, she almost certainly will project the accusation right back onto you, believing YOU to be the BPDer. Instead, simply encourage her to see a good psychologist (not a MC) and let the psych decide what to tell her.

Generally, therapists are loath to tell a high functioning BPDer the name of her disorder. To protect their clients, they routinely withhold this information from the client and from the client's spouse. I explain why this happens in my post at Loath to Diagnose. 

This is why I encouraged you above to see your own psychologist, i.e., one who has not treated or even seen your W. That gives you the best chance of obtaining a candid opinion on your W's behavior because such a psychologist is ethically bound to protect YOUR best interests, not hers.

*Seventh*, while you're looking for a good psychologist to speak with, take a quick look at my list of _18 BPD Warning Signs_ to see if most sound very familiar. If so, I would suggest you read my more detailed description of them at my posts in _Maybe's Thread_. If that description rings many bells, I would be glad to discuss them with you.

*Finally*, please don't forget those of us on this TAM forum. We want to keep trying to answer your questions and providing emotional support as long as you find our shared experiences helpful. Moreover, by sharing your own experiences, you likely are helping numerous other members and lurkers. Take care, Dragon.


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## Spicy (Jun 18, 2016)

Talk, talk, talk. Be specific. Get it all out there. Pour out your heart to your wife. Come at it from a kind, vulnerable side. Accusatory tone is not going to go over well. If this is her first child, later in life, she is probably so thrilled to finally have him, she doesn't want to miss a minute with him. From that perspective it's sweet, but no, not healthy for your marriage, AT ALL. 

He needs his parents to be in love and together, more than he needs mommy in his bed. It's going to be a challenge to get him to sleep on his own, so get ready for lots of tears and screaming. You will probably both want to send her back in there at first. 

I hope she will listen so your marriage and family unit can be saved. With you out of the house, it would just get that much worse for him.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Good guys don't let themselves get walked all over. Good men protect their kids even from their Mother if need be. Passive men get walked over and hope something will change. Passive men get bullied.


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## urf (Feb 18, 2017)

I am new here so I don't know if this a correct thing to do but here it is anyway. Consider this poem carefully. It explains passion and how to react to the loss of love.
Every word is important.

Obviously your description is only half of the story. That noted, there may be a solution and there may not be. You should be prepared either way.

I live by this description. I did so before I even understood it. I married my wife and we both agreed before the ceremony that we would only stay together for as long as we made each other happy. That was 50 years ago.




You know how this is: 
if I look 
at the crystal moon, at the red branch 
of the slow autumn at my window, 
if I touch 
near the fire 
the impalpable ash 
or the wrinkled body of the log, 
everything carries me to you, 
as if everything that exists, 
aromas, light, metals, 
were little boats 
that sail 
toward those isles of yours that wait for me. 

Well, now, 
if little by little you stop loving me 
I shall stop loving you little by little. 

If suddenly 
you forget me 
do not look for me, 
for I shall already have forgotten you. 

If you think it long and mad, 
the wind of banners 
that passes through my life, 
and you decide 
to leave me at the shore 
of the heart where I have roots, 
remember 
that on that day, 
at that hour, 
I shall lift my arms 
and my roots will set off 
to seek another land. 

But 
if each day, 
each hour, 
you feel that you are destined for me 
with implacable sweetness, 
if each day a flower 
climbs up to your lips to seek me, 
ah my love, ah my own, 
in me all that fire is repeated, 
in me nothing is extinguished or forgotten, 
my love feeds on your love, beloved, 
and as long as you live it will be in your arms 
without leaving mine. 
Pablo Neruda


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Dragon72 said:


> How do you think I should approach it?


Take the long way home.


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## Dragon72 (May 27, 2015)

Thank for all the replies. I loved the Neruda poem. Normally I don't like poetry but Neruda strikes a chord with me.

I'm 99% sure my wife is BPD.
I'm well aware of the bpdfamily forum and the techniques of validation etc. But I have found them difficult to master and pretty non-effective. I've also read "Eggshells" and "No more Mr Nice Guy" and have crashed and burned when trying to implement their strategies.

I have tried explaining how I feel and, when I stop explaining, she concedes nothing, goes on the counter-attack and I end up having to apologise for ironing her blouse wrong yesterday or some such.

I have recently been ruminating lots on this situation and it hasn't helped because resentment has built to such an extent that I only speak to her when I really have to. I mean, all those years when I was being nice to her, she preferred sleeping with a little child to staying up with her husband, so why be nice? That's my current thinking. Either that or it's an undeclared passive aggressive retaliation on my behalf. Which is pretty useless anx only serves to increase my resentment.

The trouble is that whenever I have tried to be assertive, it's turned into a big fight or a circular argument. And the advice I get about circular arguments is "don't get involved". If I don't talk to her, there won't be a circular argument. And thus, nothing gets resolved and resentments on both side build.

I'm not sure I would be able to have enough composure to address the issue in a non-accusatory and validating manner anyway. I'm too full of resentment.

As for getting her to therapy, I have never been able to get her to admit responsibility for things even as small as leaving the top off a tube of toothpaste, so the idea of her accepting even the slightest responsibility for our failing relationship and agreeing to see a therapist is inconceivable.

Today we actually went to the movies together and left our son with her sister. This happens about twice a year. It was the 1pm showing - god forbid we spend a night out together. To be fair to her, it was all her idea. But it felt like she wanted to go to the movies, rather than spend time with her hubby. We hardly spoke a word anyway.


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## Dragon72 (May 27, 2015)

She never makes me feel valued, appreciated and respected. And like in the Neruda poem, because of that and her withdrawal (and her condescending, patronising, bossy, bullying way she treats me), I am finding it increasingly difficult to value, appreciate and respect her.


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## GuyInColorado (Dec 26, 2015)

What have you said to her about this?

I think your conversation should go something like this:

Wife, we are simply roommates at best and have a sham of a marriage. I'm at the end of my ropes and can't continue on like this. I have one guaranteed life and I'm not wasting it in a loveless and meaningless marriage. You have chosen to sleep with our child instead of me and this will end. You either start sleeping with me every night starting tonight or I'll start the divorce process if you sleep with our child one more time. I'll accept nothing less than 50/50 custody, so at least our child has a shot of being normal and not screwed up. What's it going to be? 


To be honest, if I was in your shoes, I'd divorce her anyways. Why even give her a last chance? Like you said, the resentment is so high that you can't recover from this. You need to get your kid out of her care 50% of the time and go find a woman that is a better fit for you. 

My ex-wife wanted to go to therapy, etc but I was so far gone, I told her the truth that it was over and I'd never have sex again with her and didn't love her. Very hard to tell someone the truth.


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## Spicy (Jun 18, 2016)

Thanks for the additional information and feelings you are having. I don't know anything about personality disorders, so that is why I am not commenting on that in my replies to you, don't feel like I am ignoring the bulk of what you are saying. 

Honey, why are you staying married? Is it for your son? I know that is the reason most of us stay in miserable marriages. 

I would consult and attorney, and then close this chapter of being married to this woman.


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## urf (Feb 18, 2017)

Dragon72 said:


> She never makes me feel valued, appreciated and respected. And like in the Neruda poem, because of that and her withdrawal (and her condescending, patronising, bossy, bullying way she treats me), I am finding it increasingly difficult to value, appreciate and respect her.


Your wife does not need to go to counseling with you. She does not need to go alone although it would be a good idea. You need to go. You need to go without her. The work needs to be on yourself. You are not who she thought you were when she married you. I dare say you already know this and that is why you are here asking for help but the real work is between you and the best shrink you can find. 

Help yourself.


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## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

Rather than post one of my usual too-long epistles, I'll mention a few things that come to mind:

First - if you really think she has BPD, try and get it checked out. You cannot do it by coercion - I would recommend you read Gottman's "Seven Principles for Successful Marriage", not as a direct recipe book but pay very close attention to the examples shown of how to be emotionally supportive to a wife. I also recommend you watch YouTube videos of Sue Johnson discussing her theories on attachment, and emotional support. I really can't recommend her book because the writing style makes it very difficult to comprehend.

Know this: 10% of people who genuinely have BPD end in suicide. It's that serious.

Second - NEVER ultimatums. Study after study shows that ultimatims, in any context, drive wedges. Giving an ultimatum is one of the most popular ways to enjoy a VERY short term victory, while guaranteeing an ultimate failure.

Third - Make sure you do not confuse intimacy with sex. Intimacy comes in many forms. Emotional (what Sue Johnson's stuff is all about), Mental/Intellectual (things you plan together, setting short-and-long term goals together either for you or the child, solving problems together), Spiritual (part self-discovery and part how you click/interact with friends/community) and then finally physical. If the only form of intimacy you seek is physical, then she knows it...and so do you.


Good luck.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Dragon72 said:


> I'm 99% sure my wife is BPD.... I'm well aware of the bpdfamily forum and the techniques of validation etc. But I have found them difficult to master and pretty non-effective.


Yes, Dragon, that was my experience too. Likewise for @JohnA when he was in a BPDer relationship. When BPD traits are mild to moderate, the validation traits can be useful. When BPD traits are strong, however, I found validation to be useless. The problem is that the position of the BPDer's two great fears -- abandonment and engulfment -- lie at opposite ends of the _very same_ spectrum. This means you are always in a lose/lose situation because, as you back away from one fear to avoid triggering it, you will start triggering the fear at the other end of that same spectrum.

Hence, as you move close to your W to comfort her and assure her of your love, you will start triggering her engulfment fear, making her feel like she's being suffocated and controlled by you. Yet, as you back away to give her breathing space, you will find that you've started triggering her abandonment fear. 

Sadly, there is no midpoints solution (between "too close" and "too far away") where you can safely stand to avoid triggering the two fears. I know because I foolishly spent 15 years searching for that Goldilocks position, which simply does not exist.



> The trouble is that whenever I have tried to be assertive, it's turned into a big fight or a circular argument.


Because a BPDer cannot regulate her own emotions, she frequently gets feelings so intense that she is convinced they MUST be true. Whereas a mature adult will intellectually challenge that intense feeling, a BPDer -- like a young child -- will accept it as a self evident "fact." 

She therefore will rationalize it with whatever argument pops into her head. Because she views the intense feeling as an incontestable truth, her argument defending it will be replaced immediately with another absurd argument if you take the time to prove it false. Similarly, the second argument will be replaced with a third if you manage to disprove it. 

And when you disprove the third argument, she likely will return back to advocating the first argument -- acting as though you had never discussed it before. In this way, BPDers commonly will argue in circles because they regard the intense feeling to be an incontestable truth that somehow must be rationalized as best as one can do.



> As for getting her to therapy, I have never been able to get her to admit responsibility for things even as small as leaving the top off a tube of toothpaste.


As you know, a BPDer is filled with self loathing and shame that she has been carrying inside since early childhood. Hence, the last thing she wants to find is one more mistake or flaw to add to the long list of things she hates about herself. For this reason, her subconscious works 24/7 protecting her fragile ego from seeing too much of reality. It accomplishes this by projecting nearly all hurtful thoughts and painful feelings onto you. Because this projection occurs entirely at the subconscious level, she will be absolutely convinced -- at a conscious level -- that these problems originate from you.


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## Dragon72 (May 27, 2015)

Thanks for the replies. 

I am definitely not confusing a desire for emotional intimacy with physical desire. I just want simple and respectful companionship.

This afternoon she announced that her brother who I get on well with and who lives nearby would be dropping by. 
"Oh great," I replied, "what for?"
"Does he have to have a reason?", she snapped.
" No not at all, he's welcome any time. I'm just curious as to what brings him".
"He doesn't have to have a reason. It's very rude of you to ask why. My family should be welcome any time".
" They ARE welcome any time. i was just..."
At that moment our son saved me and dragged me off to play.

Her brother came and went in a very pleasant visit. It turns out he had arranged with my wife that he would come to drop off some money he had borrowed from me earlier in the week. That was the reason. It wasn't just a social call.

When he left, my wife said to me, "Never ever ask in future for what reason my family are coming. They should always be welcome and it's rude of you to ask why."
"Don't tell me what I can or can't ask. You know I like your family and they are welcome at any time for whatever reason. I just don't see the problem me wanting to know if there's a reason they're dropping by".

2 minutes of circular arguing later with her telling me how I should think and speak, I could see it was going nowhere, so I left the room and went up to "my" bedroom and locked the door just like she did 2 weeks ago when she didn't want to argue with me. I just didn't want to have yet another big circular row again.

She followed me upstairs and tried the door. "How old are you, locking the door?" (She had a point) 
"As old as you were when you did exactly the same thing a couple of weeks ago", I replied.
"Well the milk you had on the stove boileid over and you'll have to clean the stove".
"I'm the only person who ever cleans the stove anyway", I replied.
"Well you'll have to clean up the milk mess", she said and stormed off.

I went downstairs a minute later and saw that the milk had't boiled over and made a mess after all.

I found her as always in the laundry room (her passion is laundry, which is also her biggest moan). I said, " I'm going out" and left her to it.

I'm sick of her ThoughtPolice commandment. "You must not say this or that..." 

Recently I took a selfie of my son and me when my wife sent me and him on an errand. It was such a nice photo, I sent it to my brother. When I showed her the photo I sent, she said that I'm disrespectful to her by not taking a photo with her in it too and that I must never send photos if it's not of all three of us. Who does she think she is, telling me how I can communicate with my family. Incredible.

On a side note. She fell out with my mother (I still don't understand why) in the week before our wedding and hasn't spoken to them since.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Uptown said:


> Dragon, welcome back. I'm sorry to hear that your marriage has not improved since you posted a thread in May 2015. You are fortunate, however, to have your young son. It is rare for a 44 year old woman to get pregnant. My understanding is that, from age 43 onward, success rates fall to around one to five live births for every 100 women .
> 
> Dragon, if she is a BPDer (i.e., has strong and persistent traits) and you are still unwilling to divorce her, I would suggest you insist on her seeking weekly therapy as a condition for your remaining in the marriage. The main problem with that approach -- as I learned after paying six psychologists to treat my BPDer exW in weekly therapy for 15 years, is that she likely will just play mind games with the therapists and her behavior will get worse.
> 
> ...


Dear Sir, 

How did you hear about our Dragon?

Does a crystal light up on your keyboard when someone needs help with BPD?

Oh, I see. He is a former seeker...here.
..............................................................................................................................................................................

I am pulling your chain. Please do not choke!

I know, you occasionally monitor TAM. You also look for "Mentions" from attentive and helpful TAM supporters.

You are a good resource. 

The literature states that about nine percent of the American Population suffer from Personality Disorders, to include BPD.

With 300 million "living" souls in our land, that equates to 27 million squirrel-ly people. Many of them end up "here" as perpetrators of marital pain.

I know, not all are serious cases and everyone displays some of the characteristics, some of the time.

Side Note: that ~27 million is a dangerous voting block, eh? Hopefully, they do not have the inclination to vote...or march in the street.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

SunC, thanks for the kind words. I'm glad to hear you have an interest in personality disorders.



SunCMars said:


> The literature states that about nine percent of the American Population suffer from Personality Disorders, to include BPD.


Yes, the 9% figure is the "12-month prevalence" for PDs in the general population. Please keep in mind, however, that such a figure is not very meaningful. The problem with it is that the psychiatric community has been using an inappropriate diagnostic methodology for decades -- i.e., a dichotomous approach in which the client is deemed to "have" or "not have" a personality disorder. 

This is a serious problem because a client satisfying only 90% of the diagnostic criteria (thus "not having" the disorder) will be nearly as impossible to live with as a client satisfying 100% (thus "having" the disorder). Of course, this approach is as silly as diagnosing everyone under 6'5" as "short" and everyone under 250 pounds as "skinny." 

The psychiatric community adopted this silly approach largely because the insurance companies and the courts -- who were long accustomed to "yes or no" diagnoses from the medical community -- were pressing for a single, bright line being drawn between those clients they would cover (or institutionalize) and those they would not cover. But this "yes or no" approach makes no sense when applied to spectrum disorders such as PDs. The APA is in the process of completely replacing it with a graduated approach that shows we all have PD traits to varying degrees.

I mention all of this to explain why the 9% figure (for all PDs combined) is of little value until the dichotomous ("yes or no") approach is gutted and abandoned. Likewise, the 1.6% figure for the "12-month prevalence" of BPD tells you nothing of value. What is far more meaningful is the 5.9% figure for BPD "lifetime prevalence." Because roughly 6% of the population has "lifetime BPD," and because BPDers rarely pair up, roughly 12% of marriages/partnerships contain a BPDer.


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## Dragon72 (May 27, 2015)

My wife is in "her and our son's" room where he is napping and she is watching TV.

I went in to check when she wanted me to bathe him. She said not yet, he's sleeping.

Then she said, "Go to the store and buy some ham for tonight's supper, please".

" Why can't you go?" I asked.
"Well what are you doing now?", she replied, implying that I'm doing nothing.
" Why can't you go?", I insisted.
"What if I don't want to?", she said.
"Well nor do I", I answered as I left the room.

I'm sick of being her gopher. This time I'm going to assert myself and not cave in to emotional blackmail.

Today, I washed the breakfast plates, ironed the family's clothes, scrubbed a rug clean, did a laundry load, hung it up and folded it when it was dry, cooked lunch, washed the lunch plates, played with our son for a couple of hours, did the weekly shop at the market alone. I think I should be able to ask why I have to run an errand she can perfectly well do herself.

But what I can tell will happen, is that she'll make herself a martyr and refuse all help and make a big deal about what a tyrant I am forcing her to do stuff.

Normally I would have just done what she asked and saved a whole lot of emotional conflict. 

Was I right?


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## Dragon72 (May 27, 2015)

Well guess what. Minutes after posting, my son had a little accident that made him want to be comforted by mommy, so, seeing how time was getting on and how my wife would have her hands full while supper needed to be made, I ended up deciding to go and get the ham and I made the supper. 

Half of me feels like a total doormat and the other half feels I did what was right given the situation.

She had no plans to go get that ham whatever happened, because I saw she got changed into her pajamas just after I said I wouldn't go out to get the ham.

I find that whenever I try to assert myself and look after my own wants/needs, things come up that make me feel like I'm being an A-hole for standing my ground. 

This only strengthens her hold over me. She knows she can treat me like a servant/ATM while giving me nothing in return.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

I don't think you should have gone out to get ham, especially after everything else you did today. I'm sure there are other things you could have eaten for dinner, even just... Oatmeal or anything else you had in the house.


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## West Coast Boy (Feb 25, 2017)

First, thank you for sharing your experience and reaching out to all those here for support and discussion. We all have our challenges and this one for you seems huge. I too live in a relationship that I feel it out of balance and while I don't want to say I understand your feelings, I do believe I have a parallel to your situation.

1. My suggestion is first resolve to no fight. Don't say anything at all contrary to your wife. Love her with all that you have and choose to feel this first.
2. The key to dealing with difficult people is to break the pattern. Easier said than done, I know; however the only way to stop the behavior is to break the pattern. 
3. You miss the intimacy, both carnal and mental; in this case plan a date. Perhaps you can plan something that is reminiscent of your courting her. 
4. Ask he what first attracted her to you. When she shares, ask her if she still see or feels that with you. This one could revel and answer you are not prepared to hear, however even NO is a good answer, as it allows us to move-on. Not necessarily to walk away, however to approach things from a different element, or yes if needed, move on.
5. Ask to tuck you child in at night, or better yet simply to do so. 

These are just a few first steps from my perspective, however you must choose your own path. 

Wishing you the very best.

WCB


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## Dragon72 (May 27, 2015)

Thanks for your recommendations.

I tuck my son into bed every night and read him a story. It's just that my wife is there next to him too.

I think I will try a date night. My wife has said no to every suggestion that we go out as a couple in the evening together. She doesn't like the idea of leaving our son with someone at night.

The only time it has happened was when we went to a dinner party with her friends and their partners. Our son spent his first whole night away from us. 

When we went to bed that night with just the two of us in the house for the first time in 3 years since our son's birth, I was the first in bed while my wife was still finishing up in the bathroom. I was so excited that I would finally have her beside me for a night. When she came out of the bathroom, she stood in the bedroom doorway, blew me a kiss and went to sleep in our son's room. I was devastated.


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## Dragon72 (May 27, 2015)

So here's the latest.

My wife announced this evening that she is going to get a woman to come once a week to help with the housework.

My wife is a Stay At Home Mom with a 3 and a half year old son who goes to a pre-school play group every weekday for 4 hours, then comes home to nap for an hour. 

We live in a small, two bedroom house with 1.5 bathrooms, a small kitchen 5'x15', a small dining room, and a small living room. 

I work 50 hours per week and do a very respectful amount of ironing, mopping, shopping, cooking, cleaning and childcare to help out when I can, and at weekends I do more than my fair share.

I have tried to suggest a number of times in the past to my wife that she has plenty of time to manage the house. This has resulted without fail in my wife raging, crying, yelling at me and storming out for a number of hours. 

The last time I suggested she should be able to manage the house during my work week to free up time for all 3 of us to do fun stuff resulted in a door being slammed on my shoulder and being shouted at to "Go away".

Now, I recognise that being a SAHM is no picnic, but I'm really not happy with her decision to spend money on employing someone to do what I think that my wife (who seems prioritises house work over everything and then moans about it) should be capable of doing in the time that our son is at his play group.

She said that she wants to get some one to help because she "doesn't have time to do anything" right now. Well nor do I. I leave for work at 6.15am while she's still in bed and I get back at about 6.15pm just before she goes to bed again with Junior.

The trouble is, now I'm hesitant to object because it will turn into a full on fight.


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## Keke24 (Sep 2, 2016)

@Dragon72 where is she getting the money to pay this helper? So what if you object and it turns into a fight, you need to be firm. She's going to turn everything into a fight if she realizes that's an effective way to get you to go with what she wants.

Maybe checking out Karpman's Drama Triangle will help you avoid engaging her argumentative side.


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## Dragon72 (May 27, 2015)

I'm assuming she will get the money from the funds I give her every two weeks. 
Either way it's coming from me as I'm the only breadwinner in the family.
But it still doesn't sit right with me that I'm working 50+ hours a week so that we can pay someone to do what she quit her job to do after our son was born.

I just googled the Karpman Triangle. As far as I can tell, the Karpman Triangle has her as the "Victim" (of the oppressed life of a SAHM who doesn't have enough feet-up time), and me as the perceived "Persecutor" (forcing her to endure the misery of vacuuming) until I get emotionally blackmailed into being her "Rescuer" (by paying for a maid). At that point I become the "Victim" (of her emotional manipulation) and she becomes the "Persecutor" (by turning off the love tap). I kind of get it, but I'm not sure how that helps me to reduce the drama.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Just for kicks, ensure said helper is not simply a way to squirrel money away for an eventual divorce filing. Too many similarities with wife's cousin, and it did not end good for him.


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## Dragon72 (May 27, 2015)

I am definitely giving her more money than she is spending visibly.


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## Keke24 (Sep 2, 2016)

Dragon72 said:


> I'm assuming she will get the money from the funds I give her every two weeks.
> Either way it's coming from me as I'm the only breadwinner in the family.
> But it still doesn't sit right with me that I'm working 50+ hours a week so that we can pay someone to do what she quit her job to do after our son was born.
> 
> I just googled the Karpman Triangle. As far as I can tell, the Karpman Triangle has her as the "Victim" (of the oppressed life of a SAHM who doesn't have enough feet-up time), and me as the perceived "Persecutor" (forcing her to endure the misery of vacuuming) until I get emotionally blackmailed into being her "Rescuer" (by paying for a maid). At that point I become the "Victim" (of her emotional manipulation) and she becomes the "Persecutor" (by turning off the love tap). I kind of get it, but I'm not sure how that helps me to reduce the drama.



If you keep searching you'll find more detailed information on how to respond to avoid the cycle of arguing. And insight into why she plays the role of victim and how you're enabling that. The idea is that you have more control over the dynamic in your relationship than you realize and you should endeavor to avoid filling any of these roles (victim, persecutor, rescuer) as they all feed off of each other and contribute to the problem at hand. 

I'll try to run a search when I have a bit more time to see if I can find more info for you.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Dragon72 said:


> I am definitely giving her more money than she is spending visibly.


Like tens, hundreds.... Wife's cousin's wife 😁 did more or less that thru her marriage, cousin never said anything as he was making mid six figures. Then she put on 40 lb and went from LD to zero D. Let him know it's OK to fool around. He, like the idiot he was, took the bait and was nailed by wife's gumshoe PI. as his state is not too male friendly he lost his shirt in the divorce, wife hired a personal trainer, lost the weight and remarried. Cousin moved 5 states away and lost access to his child, and ended up marrying his therapist 😁😁

Don't be like cousin...


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## GuyInColorado (Dec 26, 2015)

Why would you want to go on a date night with this woman? Your marriage seems awfully similar to my train wreck of a marriage that lasted 8 years. It was never good, even before the marriage. I somehow had 2 kids with her and was trapped until the youngest hit 4 years old. Then I bolted and cheerfully pay her child support each month. I cheerfully gave her the house and everything in it. I just wanted out and to give my kid's the best outcome possible.

Whatever you do... DON'T have another kid with her. Once your boy hits 5 years old and is in school 5 days a week, it will be much easier to leave. Start detaching and doing things that make you happy. Eat healthy, drink healthy and hit the gym. Get yourself in the best shape of your life. Start seeing a therapist. This marriage won't last, you know it right now. You just aren't at the point of ending it and splitting up everything, including your son. It sounds like you're getting close though. You're starting to get mad. You're starting to not care. Before you were a doormat doing whatever to keep your perfect little family together and sleep in your own bed. But you are now seeing who she really is and you never had a chance of having a happy marriage. You'll come to peace knowing that you'll lose half your crap and see your son 50% of the time in return to have a happy and content life again. You'll realize that living with this woman another 15 years until your son graduates high school will waste the prime years of your life and you'll have major regret.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

Livvie said:


> I don't think you should have gone out to get ham, especially after everything else you did today. I'm sure there are other things you could have eaten for dinner, even just... Oatmeal or anything else you had in the house.


Absolutely make her go out and get the ham, and if she gets pissed, so what. For awhile I would go out of my way to deliberately not do what she asks. I think I would also start the process of filing. This marriage is going nowhere fast.


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

Dragon72 said:


> Thanks for your recommendations.
> 
> I tuck my son into bed every night and read him a story. It's just that my wife is there next to him too.
> 
> ...


Seriously??!!!

Dragon, she is NOT in love with you. She doesn't love you anymore!!
What respectful/loving wife treats her husband like she does with you? What loving wife never sleeps in bed with her husband?

She's either emotionally attached to another man (that you're not aware of while away..) or she _simply_ doesn't romantically/sexually love you. 

From your posts, we can tell you STILL are serving her as if you are her puppy. 
How can you put up with her orders?
Don't allow her to treat you like a 4 year old kid! Because she treats you like that and you allow it, obviously she will not respect and love you!

Man up, stay firm to your beliefs, speak your mind, don't obey to her rules and you MIGHT notice any change..although it's difficult with how things are going.


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## Dragon72 (May 27, 2015)

Thanks @lovelygirl

I think sometimes I need someone to hold a mirror up to look at myself from another's perspective. You're right it's a dreadful state of affairs. I think you're right in doubting that there's any salvation here, and I don't think I'm just being a quitter by saying that.

I am coming to the realisation that she hasn't cared for me as a person very much for a long time. Perhaps ever. 
The trouble with people with BPD is that they are very good at crushing any sort of resistance. They are bullies who tend to get their way. But I'm not blameless either. The codependent types like who the BPDs tend to hook up with are so desperate to please that we'll take all sorts of emotional manipulation, exploitation and abuse. Healthy people would have walked away long ago.


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## Tatsuhiko (Jun 21, 2016)

It's really time to have the talk. No more door slamming, power plays, passive-aggressiveness. Tell her you'd like to talk with her and carve out some time. Tell her exactly how you feel and that she's not really a wife to you anymore. Tell her that you're not sure how long you can continue in a marriage that's not even a friendship.


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## Dragon72 (May 27, 2015)

I'm going to give it a try, but I think I will wait until after her birthday which is on Sunday.

I have organised a party for her with her brothers and sisters and their families and I think it would be best for us not to do it right before that.


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## Tatsuhiko (Jun 21, 2016)

Dragon72 said:


> I'm going to give it a try, but I think I will wait until after her birthday which is on Sunday.
> 
> I have organised a party for her with her brothers and sisters and their families and I think it would be best for us not to do it right before that.


Very thoughtful of you. Why do I get the impression, from reading this thread, that your wife would never bother to organize a similar party for you?


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## Dragon72 (May 27, 2015)

Tatsuhiko said:


> Very thoughtful of you. Why do I get the impression, from reading this thread, that your wife would never bother to organize a similar party for you?


You see, the weird thing about this whole situation is that two weeks ago it was my birthday and she *did* organise a get together for my birthday, albeit smaller scale with some of her family. She even bought me a present: a shirt. Go figure.:scratchhead:

It's a marked improvement from Christmas when her present to me was telling me to choose for myself something and buy it with my own money. She also told me not to buy her a present and that she would be needing money for her to buy her own self a present "from me" which she would choose.


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## Dragon72 (May 27, 2015)

Nice to see my wife did most of the ironing today. It's normally me that does it. 

She did leave about a third of it un-ironed. Oh what a surprise! My clothes.


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