# Calling out Friends



## Maria Canosa Gargano (Jan 30, 2015)

I want to open up this thread to understand how we deal with friends who are displaying an openness to cheating or are cheating. I feel like we see a lot of stories from the BS that say "I was the last person to know". Do you first talk to the one cheating one on one or is an open exposure like is recommended for the BS also recommended for a friend. I also want to know at what level of friendship you feel you need to have to also have the responsibility to confront the person.

At what point do we call out a friend's behavior? Is it when they are cheating, is it when they display red flags? Has talking to a friend when they were displaying red flags helped anyone before or have they continued with the behavior undeterred? Any success or failure stories?


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

Maria Canosa Gargano said:


> I want to open up this thread to understand how we deal with friends who are displaying an openness to cheating or are cheating. I feel like we see a lot of stories from the BS that say "I was the last person to know". Do you first talk to the one cheating one on one or is an open exposure like is recommended for the BS also recommended for a friend. I also want to know at what level of friendship you feel you need to have to also have the responsibility to confront the person.
> 
> At what point do we call out a friend's behavior? Is it when they are cheating, is it when they display red flags? Has talking to a friend when they were displaying red flags helped anyone before or have they continued with the behavior undeterred? Any success or failure stories?


After my marriage blew up, I learned that a close family friend had been the OW in an affair because her current partner had been married when they started dating. I haven't spoken to her in years. It also didn't help that I learned she suspected my ex was up to something, and confronted him, but believe his excuses and took it no further.

However, I admit that had I found out about her activity at the time it happened, I probably would not have done anything. I had no way to contact her AP's spouse, and this was before my ex cheated so I had no idea of the level of pain involved. I probably would have thought much less of her AP, but I wouldn't have cut off the friendship.

Now that I know how it feels, I would be going scorched earth on friendships, because I refuse to be friends with people who treat people that way. And I'd do my best to expose the affair to the hapless innocent.


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## Maria Canosa Gargano (Jan 30, 2015)

Hopeful Cynic said:


> After my marriage blew up, I learned that a close family friend had been the OW in an affair because her current partner had been married when they started dating. I haven't spoken to her in years. It also didn't help that I learned she suspected my ex was up to something, and confronted him, but believe his excuses and took it no further.
> 
> However, I admit that had I found out about her activity at the time it happened, I probably would not have done anything. I had no way to contact her AP's spouse, and this was before my ex cheated so I had no idea of the level of pain involved. I probably would have thought much less of her AP, but I wouldn't have cut off the friendship.
> 
> Now that I know how it feels, I would be going scorched earth on friendships, because I refuse to be friends with people who treat people that way. And I'd do my best to expose the affair to the hapless innocent.


Just to bring out a little bit more of what you said. I noticed you said before you were cheated on you wouldn't have done anything to expose, but after you were you would. Do you think it's possible to salvage friendships of those who knew but didn't tell if you can explain to them how painful it is. Help them see the light? Or do you think the damage is too deep already and its just better to move on no matter how deep the friendship was.

That philosophical questioning aside. I am so sorry about what happened. Thank you for sharing your story. For me I cut off a good portion of friends at first. I hung on to a few, but I found that the seeming uncaring attitude they had during the affair was too big of a hurdle for me to get over even though they treated me fine after. It wasn't a dislike of the person, but a feeling of a wall that couldn't be crossed.


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## Acoa (Sep 21, 2012)

As soon as you see it you should call it what it is. I have a friend who had a married guy friend her. At first it was just friends. Then he told her he wanted to be more than friends. Then he told her he wanted to leave his wife. 

She really likes him. I told her if she keeps it up, she will be the other woman. She didn't like me pointing it out, but she knows I'm right. 

Will she heed my warning? I don't know. I won't associate with her if I find out she is still seeing / talking to this guy. If she was a closer friend, I'd figure out who the guy is and expose him to his wife.


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## Maria Canosa Gargano (Jan 30, 2015)

Acoa said:


> As soon as you see it you should call it what it is. I have a friend who had a married guy friend her. At first it was just friends. Then he told her he wanted to be more than friends. Then he told her he wanted to leave his wife.
> 
> She really likes him. I told her if she keeps it up, she will be the other woman. She didn't like me pointing it out, but she knows I'm right.
> 
> Will she heed my warning? I don't know. I won't associate with her if I find out she is still seeing / talking to this guy. If she was a closer friend, I'd figure out who the guy is and expose him to his wife.


Acoa, I guess that is the difficult part for me. I don't want to be the friend who say by as the BS was being betrayed, but neither do I want to bail ship before I felt like I could talk some sense into the person. 

When you told her did she acknowledge what you said or did she try to rugsweep?


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## G.J. (Nov 4, 2014)

If she/he has started an affair do you really need to be a friend to that type of person so the answer in that dilema for me would be full nuclear option to his/her spouse and friends

If it looks as though it hasent progressed that far then big warning shot across the bow advising and showing them the effect of the wrong decision even showing them TAM and hammering the point of 'if you arnt happy and want out of your marriage' then divorce first


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## Maria Canosa Gargano (Jan 30, 2015)

G.J. said:


> If she/he has started an affair do you really need to be a friend to that type of person so the answer in that dilema for me would be full nuclear option to his/her spouse and friends
> 
> If it looks as though it hasent progressed that far then big warning shot across the bow advising and showing them the effect of the wrong decision even showing them TAM and hammering the point of 'if you arnt happy and want out of your marriage' then divorce first


I never thought of showing TAM, but I think I am going to take the suggestion. I know it has been said so many times before but it would be nice if there was a stickie of all the general advice and consequences of an affair.


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## Acoa (Sep 21, 2012)

Maria Canosa Gargano said:


> Acoa, I guess that is the difficult part for me. I don't want to be the friend who say by as the BS was being betrayed, but neither do I want to bail ship before I felt like I could talk some sense into the person.
> 
> 
> 
> When you told her did she acknowledge what you said or did she try to rugsweep?



She tried to rationalize, but I tore her faulty logic to shreds. Then she acknowledged what I said.


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## commonsenseisn't (Aug 13, 2014)

Many years ago my best friend betrayed his wife and five young kids by getting his OW pregnant. I waited a short time to see if they would reconcile. If so, I'd lend my support. 

They divorced and he married the other woman. As soon as I saw which direction he would go I told him how disappointed I was in him and ended the friendship. 

No regrets. I don't want these toxic people in my life.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

I had a friend who cheated on his wife when she was pregnant with their twins.

He cheated on her with her best friend who was a lesbian. Who dumped her girlfriend/lover to be with him.

I decided he was no longer my friend.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Maria Canosa Gargano (Jan 30, 2015)

commonsenseisn't and MattMatt, 

Did you know that they were cheating once it was all out in the open or did you know before it was open? If you knew before it was open, did you try to dissuade it?

I am in the position where I see a friend (same gender) with unhealthy boundaries. Not cheating. But unhealthy boundaries. I guess I am trying to figure out at what point do we intervene, at what point do we stop intervening and when to cut this person out.

For example I have made my feelings about the boundaries clear already. The unhealthy boundaries remain. Does this mean I cut this friend out without any further bad behavior?


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Most of my buddies have a pact that we will all call it out for (or on) each other if we see it.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*Maria: I don't really know if this counts or not, but way back when my rich, skanky XW was cheating on me with her two out-of-town BF's, it was a very well kept secret, at least from me.

But when I saw some photos taken of her and one of her OM at a New Orleans Mardi Gras gala, all while I had been relegated back home to manage the ranch and the house, while she was supposed to be away on business somewhere up in the Texas Hill Country. Well, her BF was from the Texas Hill Country!

And when I ran across this set of FB photos some 12 months later during my separation, I saw red! There she was in all of her glory in the New Orleans French Quarter, with her OM, in a lovey-dovey pose together, along with a married couple who were supposed to be very good mutual friends of mine as well. In fact, the young man was a fellow Freemason, who is not supposed to keep social secrets from other Freemasons, more especially if they no about hany-panky going on.

Well, after due investigation, I discover that not only had she and the OM met her friends in The Big Easy for Mardi Gras, but in fact, they had assembled there about 5 days prior to take a New Orleans based cruise out into the Gulf and the Carribean prior tp coming back to shore to celebrate Mardi Gras. Instead of driving to the Hill Country on business, my rich, skanky XW had actually taken a "puddle jumper" connecting flight to Houston, where she met her OM, who met her there, flying in from Austin. And they flew from Houston on in to "N'awlins," for their extended Mardi Gras holiday together!

When she called home to check in, she said that the weather in The Hill Country was awful, when in fact, she had been in NO, or out on the ocean the entire time!

My biggest problem was that all of her best friends kept her affair as well as her trip with L'il Lord Lardass a total secret from me the entire time. Early the next month, she asked me for the separation, and wanted it to commence when my boys were let out of school in mid-May!

And as radio commentator Paul Harvey used to always say, "Now you know the rest of the story!"*


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## MovingAhead (Dec 27, 2012)

I have some very close friends. I do NOT have friends that would cheat on their wives. I don't have female friends because I have strong boundaries. Acquaintances yes, friends not so much. My friends would not cheat. If they did, the would not be my friend. I would NOT hesitate to call them out on it.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Maria Canosa Gargano said:


> commonsenseisn't and MattMatt,
> 
> Did you know that they were cheating once it was all out in the open or did you know before it was open? If you knew before it was open, did you try to dissuade it?
> 
> ...


The night before he had his one night stand I had an incling of what he would do do I told him not to do it.

But he still did it.

when I realised next day he had done it (they were seen by someone else) I told him that as this person was spreading it through the theatre group) I made him tell his wife.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

I have and would call them out again. They reform or off my friend list and I might destroy them. I'm not nice.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*Which greatly makes me think that my rich, skanky XW's , her unknown-to-me BF, and the married couple, who was supposedly our "mutual friends," who went on that infamous Mardi Gras holiday and the preceding cruise together, all while I was back home happily tending to the ranch chores and the family; and thinking that she was off on a 'horse-buying" roadtrip somewhere up in the Texas Hill Country, had to have literally conspired to plan this trip behind my back and with my having absolutely no idea as to what was going on, on this alleged 10-day "business trip" of hers!!

Had they really been my true friends as they often said that they were, they would have never ever been a party to this sordid trip and would have promptly told me what my wife was up to before the trip was ever planned and consumated!

Instead, they were also deceitful, willing co-conspirators, laying witness to and obviously embracing the infidelity that my XW and her OM were overtly committing.

I really think that I have enemies that I have far more respect for, than I do for that particular pair of "friends!" To this very day, I absolutely wouldn't pee in their guts, if they were literally on fire!*


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## Maria Canosa Gargano (Jan 30, 2015)

arbitrator said:


> *Maria: I don't really know if this counts or not, but way back when my rich, skanky XW was cheating on me with her two out-of-town BF's, it was a very well kept secret, at least from me.
> 
> But when I saw some photos taken of her and one of her OM at a New Orleans Mardi Gras gala, all while I had been relegated back home to manage the ranch and the house, while she was supposed to be away on business somewhere up in the Texas Hill Country. Well, her BF was from the Texas Hill Country!
> 
> ...


Several things I want to respond to.

First, I am so sorry both for what she did as well as her friends not only allowing but enabling her behavior. Sometimes it is easier to accept what the cheater did, but to see how our so called friends go along with it to makes you think society has gone mad.

Second, are you an author? I feel like you need to write a book critiquing society in your style must be written. I always love reading your posts as they are entertaining even if they are ripping your heart out at the same time.


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## Maria Canosa Gargano (Jan 30, 2015)

ConanHub said:


> I have and would call them out again. They reform or off my friend list and I might destroy them. I'm not nice.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I want to hold that view. I think it is the grey part in between. As in, what part of waiting for them to reform do we bail ship?


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Maria Canosa Gargano said:


> Second, are you an author? I feel like you need to write a book critiquing society in your style must be written. I always love reading your posts as they are entertaining even if they are ripping your heart out at the same time.


*I'm extremely flattered by your comments, Maria! But I'm just an old English minor who was taught how to write by some very good people in academia!*


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Maria Canosa Gargano said:


> I want to hold that view. I think it is the grey part in between. As in, what part of waiting for them to reform do we bail ship?


If someone is exhibiting red flag behavior, I confront. If they don't immediately rectify their behavior, I pounce.
I caught my best friend in the world cheating. I didn't let him in my house and confronted him. He immediately started to reform.

But then he fell back to cheating. I subsequently defriended him and destroyed his reputation and career. I was somewhat angry.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

My WW had an affair and we entered MC and trying to reconcile. I have not told anyone nor has my WW. As I got about a few months from d-day my rage hit new heights, I could barely keep control of my rage. My WW asked me to talk to my sister. I met with my sister and poured out everything that I had suppressed about my WW affair. My sister was in shock and angry with my WW. I thought my sister would tell me to divorce, get rid of her at all costs. But she didn't, instead she hung her head and said I have something to tell you. My gut flipped over and she began to cry. What she said next I couldn't have prepared for in a weeks time. My sister said she has been having an affair for fourteen years!!! 

I was stunned and speechless. I wanted to vomit as she began to tell me why. All of what she said about her marriage was true but an affair is not a solution. My sisters husband knows so I couldn't expose there. I could tell my parents but as I thought about it I think that is what my sister may have wanted me to do. That takes the burden off her to tell my parents. So I have kept my mouth shut for now and her AP is divorced for the last eight years. 

About the middle of January I met my sister for dinner. Again she said I have something to tell you. My sister tells me her AP has cheated on her while on business overnight. I could tell she was a wreck and she and her AP are trying to work it out. All I could do was shake my head in disbelief. The only comment I made was if he cheated on his wife with you, and now cheated on you, think long and hard about keeping this relationship. My sister has finally started the divorce process though. 

I can't seem to get away from infidelity, two people I had high regards for, completely devastated me. But I guess that is what people do, continuously let us down.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Driftingon. It is harder for people to cheat around you if you don't accept it. If people are cheating, they are not welcome around my wife and kids. We all deserve better. Hope your wife is someone different BTW. Who she was wasn't worth your spit.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

I don't think the answer is so Black and White.

Here is a 'for instance'

1) Couple get married at 25 years old.
2) At 27 years old the wife has a one night stand with a highschool friend
3) She is devastated. Very disappointed with herself. Vows to never be unfaithful again.
4) Lives the next 60 years as a faithful wife, mother and partner.

I believe this happens. What would have happened if someone told the husband 60 years back about the cheating? There is a very good chance that his life wouldn't have been as good. He would have either ended his marriage (that turned out to be great) or he would have stayed married but never would have been able to trust his wife.

Cheating is wrong. I don't know if I could ever forgive my wife if she cheated on me. But I do understand that people make mistakes. If I was the husband in the above example, I would be glad nobody told me about her one indiscretion.

I think what I am saying is that it would depend on the friend. If it was more than a one time thing, then sure, he wouldn't be my friend anymore and I would be telling his wife. If he thought it was fun and wasn't remorseful, then same thing. 

I have a couple of very close friends. They have been married for 30 years plus. If one cheated on their wife. I am not sure I would do anything. It would be so out of character for them. They would be so upset with themselves. Not sure it would help anyone if I outed them.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

I am hard core. I would out someone no matter how much time has past. I value honesty, integrity and dignity. Others simply don't. You can't have it both ways.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Maria Canosa Gargano said:


> commonsenseisn't and MattMatt,
> 
> Did you know that they were cheating once it was all out in the open or did you know before it was open? If you knew before it was open, did you try to dissuade it?
> 
> ...


I got a vibe that they were going to do it. So I talked to him for a long time and thought I'd put him right.

Clearly, I failed.


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## Maria Canosa Gargano (Jan 30, 2015)

ConanHub said:


> Driftingon. It is harder for people to cheat around you if you don't accept it. If people are cheating, they are not welcome around my wife and kids. We all deserve better. Hope your wife is someone different BTW. Who she was wasn't worth your spit.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


ConanHub. I saw your previous post as well and I think for me that cleared a lot of what I called the grey area. I never want to condone behavior, but neither do I want silence to condone behavior or to not try to help someone to see the light if they can


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## Maria Canosa Gargano (Jan 30, 2015)

MattMatt said:


> I got a vibe that they were going to do it. So I talked to him for a long time and thought I'd put him right.
> 
> Clearly, I failed.


I have had relationships in which I thought someone was on the same page with me and was completely blindsided when it turned out they weren't. I think we would like to think we are able to 100% understand someone's character, but the best we can do is guess.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Maria Canosa Gargano said:


> ConanHub. I saw your previous post as well and I think for me that cleared a lot of what I called the grey area. I never want to condone behavior, but neither do I want silence to condone behavior or to not try to help someone to see the light if they can


Trust me. Silence is the last thing they will get from me but if someone insists on being a vile pos then I will treat them as they are.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## commonsenseisn't (Aug 13, 2014)

Maria Canosa Gargano said:


> commonsenseisn't and MattMatt,
> 
> Did you know that they were cheating once it was all out in the open or did you know before it was open? If you knew before it was open, did you try to dissuade it?
> 
> ...


I didn't know about it till the dirty deed was done. It crushed me when I found out because I learned about my own wayward wife a few weeks earlier and had been leaning upon my friend for support. Imagine that, my friend consoling me and boinking his other woman at the same time. What an ass. He had an angel of a wife and five wonderful kids. 

Today I have a no prisoners, non negotiable attitude on such things. If I learned of one of my friends cheating today I wouldn't even give them a chance to straighten up before I exposed them and ended the friendship. In fact, I'd have to exercise a lot of restraint to not beat them to within an inch of their life. I guess I'm not a passive personality.


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## commonsenseisn't (Aug 13, 2014)

SadSamIAm said:


> I don't think the answer is so Black and White.
> 
> Here is a 'for instance'
> 
> ...


SadSam,

You make valid points that my logical side agrees with, but after what I've endured for many years I'm afraid I would still see it in black and white, and respond accordingly. 

I'm sure you are correct that this hypothetical scenario commonly plays out just like you described. However, how could any of us ever know if the wayward will reform, or get much worse? I know the doubt would overcome me somewhere along the marriage or friendship. 

I don't have all the answers except that I can't take a chance on a wayward again, regardless if it's a spouse or a friend. Maybe, and hopefully, time will allow me to adopt a more pragmatic view like what you describe.


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> Driftingon. It is harder for people to cheat around you if you don't accept it. If people are cheating, they are not welcome around my wife and kids. We all deserve better. Hope your wife is someone different BTW. Who she was wasn't worth your spit.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_




ConanHub

I wouldn't be trying R if my WW wasn't doing everything correctly. My WW has confessed, shown remorse, regret, found our MC, willing to move mountains, and busting her ass to make this marriage work. While her affair destroyed me I am beginning to come back with therapy. My sister, cheating for fourteen years, brought rage in me that I didn't speak with her for a month. I then decided this is my sister, I helped her retain an attorney and file for divorce. 

I don't condone affairs before and after what has happened to me, but I will try to help that person do the right thing. In my sister's case that is getting a divorce for her.


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## Maria Canosa Gargano (Jan 30, 2015)

I hate to resurrect an old thread but I have uncovered without a doubt a friend who is in an EA. I need some help from more experienced people uncovering an EA and bringing it to the husband's attention. I am unsure of what evidence to bring as there is not one "smoking gun" moment and I have no copies of texts/messages, only a drunk phone call conversation in which everything was admitted to me.

If anyone has any specific plan of action, that would help. 

If anyone can think of ways he would react and how far I should push, that would help.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Maria Canosa Gargano said:


> I hate to resurrect an old thread but I have uncovered without a doubt a friend who is in an EA. I need some help from more experienced people uncovering an EA and bringing it to the husband's attention. I am unsure of what evidence to bring as there is not one "smoking gun" moment and I have no copies of texts/messages, only a drunk phone call conversation in which everything was admitted to me.
> 
> If anyone has any specific plan of action, that would help.
> 
> If anyone can think of ways he would react and how far I should push, that would help.


Speak with your friend, work out a plan of action for her.


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## Maria Canosa Gargano (Jan 30, 2015)

MattMatt said:


> Speak with your friend, work out a plan of action for her.


So no confrontation of the husband, just her?

What points would you address with her?


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Maria Canosa Gargano said:


> So no confrontation of the husband, just her?
> 
> What points would you address with her?


Establish with her what is really going on.

If it is as you suspect, help her to see how wrong it is.

Then convince her to stop the bad behaviour and convince her to tell her husband.


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## Rugs (Apr 12, 2013)

My three best friends are all having affairs. 

One BS knows enough but not all and he doesn't want to know because he is also cheating and my friend knows. Basically they just both look the other way as to keep their financial lifestyle and they like how their marriage looks on the outside to friends and family. 

My problem is their OM and OW are both married and THEIR spouses do not know (as far as I know). I do not know either of the OM or OW spouse personally but I do know their names. I have remained quiet. Although sending something anonymously originally consumed me, in the end, I could not do it. 

Friend number two has an open affair and she is now separated pending a divorce. Her AP is not attached. She really never cared who knew but initially hid it until it became her exit affair. 

Third friend is separated but his married OW's husband has no idea. I do not know the betrayed spouse and my actions are the same as the first friend in that I have remained quiet. 

I have voiced my opinion in all cases and it (for the most part) has ruined the friendships I held dear for many years. 

all these affairs above are long term affairs ranging from 2 - 8 years and I just recently found out about all of them. I did try to discuss my feelings and I received tons of blame shifting and justification. Although they all felt "bad", no one felt bad enough to end their affair.


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## commonsenseisn't (Aug 13, 2014)

Rugs said:


> My three best friends are all having affairs. .


Good grief! 

Are you just unlucky in the friend situation, or do you run with a rough crowd? 

I'm curious. Can you identify any factors that contributed to so many cheating best friends? I think it would be worthwhile to know any clues so that these types could be avoided and would appreciate any insights you may have. 

I carefully screen my acquaintances for clues that would indicate future dishonest behavior in case I were to become friends with them. Any signs of dishonesty quickly disqualifies them from attaining "friend" status with me. This has worked very well for me in recent years, especially in my business dealings. 

As for Marias situation... it's decent of you to warn a betrayed spouse, but discretion is called for because it may backfire on you. That old saying about "no good deed goes unpunished" is far too often true! I've seen it more than once!


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## Maria Canosa Gargano (Jan 30, 2015)

MattMatt said:


> Establish with her what is really going on.
> 
> If it is as you suspect, help her to see how wrong it is.
> 
> Then convince her to stop the bad behaviour and convince her to tell her husband.



I can now see a much clearer path. That was what I was confused about. Who do I address and how. It may have seemed simple, but it was the hardest thing for me to decide. We have a lot of advice for BS, but not such a clear path for friends who find out.

Thank you MattMatt. 

I am debating posting any more information if it happens as I don't want to reveal anybody's identity or have anyone connect real life to TAM.

But that aside, thank you.


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## Maria Canosa Gargano (Jan 30, 2015)

commonsenseisn't said:


> Good grief!
> 
> Are you just unlucky in the friend situation, or do you run with a rough crowd?
> 
> ...


Oh yes! I know exactly what you are talking about. I may seem calm in my posts (maybe?) but I have run every nightmare scenario in my head. 

I think talking to her directly is a good way to address the situation without making it a nightmare scenario.


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## Nomorebeans (Mar 31, 2015)

My STBXH is having an affair with a woman he met in his hometown in another state. He met her in September, and spent a week with her in December, claiming to be visiting married friends of both of ours who just spent time with us at our house a year ago. 

I found out about the whole thing in February, and also not only that they knew about him being in town with her and that he was telling me he was with them, but that the four of them had dinner together twice while he was there! This was like taking my broken heart and stomping on it. To this day, STBX doesn't understand why that should bother me so much. But we weren't openly hostile or fighting in our marriage, there isn't anything horrible I've ever done to him or otherwise, and in fact, they both told me a couple times when they visited us last year how wonderful they think I am.

I had a friend in town who I know cheated on her husband a couple of times as retaliation cheating because she knew he was cheating on her. I didn't even like her husband. But one time she asked me if I'd mind if she said she was spending the night with me in a hotel somewhere after a concert in another town, when she was really doing that with him. I said I'm sorry, but yes, I would mind because it would make me feel uncomfortable if I was used as a lie. She was understanding about that. And went on to use a different friend who was willing.

I guess I'm really morally uptight, but I wouldn't be able to stand myself if I ever took part in such a lie, and I certainly would never, EVER be the OW to any married man - I don't care who he is or what the sob story he tells me about his terrible wife is. And I'd like to think I never would have done it before some sloppy b!tch did it to me. It's a matter of whether you're capable of empathy, or only sympathy, or both. Being capable of empathy requires selflessness. I'm selfless - a martyr, really - to a fault.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

I assume your friend admits she is in love with this OM. So she knows she is in an emotional affair. The line has been crossed already, and she is all fogged up. Logic is not going to convince her to stop having contact with this person.

The only route I see is to go to her husband and tell him your suspicions. You could point him to TAM, especially the thread on collecting evidence. The earliest intervention in an EA is needed to stop it before she gets too deeply "in love" with OM, and before it goes physical.

If the OM is married you could do the same notification to his wife.

The difficult part is that you have no physical evidence to hand over. This is why you need to give her husband the information he needs to gather the evidence himself. He may need more or less proof, every person is a bit different. Some need total proof before they'll take action, others need little more than a hint of a problem.

His best action is to require full transparency from her and total no-contact with the OM. If she won't comply, his best strategy is to start divorce proceedings. The shock and awe of filing for divorce may be enough to get her to stop. He needs to implement secret surveillance to be sure she has stopped all contact. Key logging the computer, gps her car, VAR in her car are all standard techniques used to catch a cheater who takes the affair underground. He needs all passwords to all of her online accounts and to her phone, laptop, and tablet.

If you tell him you believe she is getting emotionally involved, he may choose to disbelieve you. That is on him. The best you can do is to make him aware as early as possible and to give him some information to help him break the affair in order to save his marriage. He may choose not to take advantage of the knowledge.

You will likely lose your friend over this. The other options are to say nothing and remain friends with her, or to say nothing but stop being friends with her. Odds are she's stepped over a line which ends your friendship.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

What has your friend admitted to? Does she have a lot of contact with this guy or is it a bit of a secret crush which he doesn't really know about?


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

I agree with Thor and just want to ask if it is better for Maria to just tell the husband and let him gather evidence before he tells the AP's wife, instead of her telling him? Edit: The last part of this sentence didn't make sense. Don't know if he should gather evidence before exposing to other BS?

I guess it all depends on how quickly your friend's husband can gather evidence. Now is the time to act swiftly and harshly, if he wants a chance to stop it all. So, I'm not sure.


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## Maria Canosa Gargano (Jan 30, 2015)

Sorry for not responding. I work/study at the same time. When I work, I will be gone for long stretches of time. When I study, I use this as my 15 minute break time.

She actually is not in love with the OM. She knows that he is playing her by saying he loves her. What she has told me is that she feels like a bad person because she keeps it going because she feels that the passion in her marriage has died. She knows she is being played a fool, but that rush of someone desiring her is what is attracting her to him. I know her husband loves her and desires her too. The problem, IMO, is that she is newly married (less than 6 months) and is someone who does not seem to like romantic commitment. She was dating her husband for 15 years. He kept on wanting to get married. She didn't. I think she can be in LTR, but I think she is someone who will always want to move on at some point.

No children BTW. So if there is to be a split, best time to do it.

Thor, I like best what you said about handing him over the tools to look at the situation himself and realize there is an EA going on. I was totally in the dark about what to do when I first posted. A drunk unrecorded phone call by word of mouth is bad evidence to hand over to anyone. Is there a standard evidence post? I know I have seen one floating around, but I can't seem to pinpoint its location.

I do think in the end, if he chooses to follow the path that you have outlined, that will help their marriage the best if they continue to stay in it. I think she has to think to herself if she is someone who ever truly does want to get married, or if she committed because now she is in her early 30s and felt like she had to do it. If she decides she does want to do a 180 on herself and choose commitment, and he wants to be with her after this (I know myself I would not trust someone who was emotionally involved with another woman months after I married him) I think the marriage can survive the EA. 

She moved here from another country. The OM is an ex she dated from the other country. Doesn't mean it can't become PA, but she hasn't left this country yet, and I know no one has visited her at nights as I have slept over every night her husband is not there. They both have asked me that as a favor so she wouldn't be alone. She doesn't yet speak English and has never lived by herself. I can help translate/ease her transition into getting used to an American lifestyle. I think that is part of the attraction of the OM. He represents her life when she was in her element, back home, on top of her career, surrounded by friends and family, feeling like she had the pick of whatever she wanted in whatever field she chose.

EDIT: The OM is single. He is a latin lover type (re: POS). Never has a girlfriend or wife. Just hops from different women's beds...whether or not that woman is married or not! I think that is why he is pursuing her so much. They were from the same town. Never had an interest in her until she moved halfway across the world and got married!


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Honestly, it looks like they are total opposites and should never have gotten married. They need to get into MC before they crash and burn in the most awful way. I hope you can get them to see that, but he's probably "in love" and won't believe it.


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## Maria Canosa Gargano (Jan 30, 2015)

2ntnuf said:


> Honestly, it looks like they are total opposites and should never have gotten married. They need to get into MC before they crash and burn in the most awful way. I hope you can get them to see that, but he's probably "in love" and won't believe it.


That has been my opinion too. I knew them before marriage. I liked them both. But I thought that if he wanted to get married, he needed to do it with a woman who was also just as committed.

It is a stereotype of women that they will do that with men. But there are some men who will marry a woman hoping she will settle down.

So I think this marriage should be either overhauled or they need to get on the same page and quick....going off here, but I am honestly angry that she put me in this position of being in on her secret. It is asking me to keep the secret from her husband by using our bond as friends as collateral. 

Just leaves a bad taste in my mouth the whole thing.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Maria Canosa Gargano said:


> That has been my opinion too. I knew them before marriage. I liked them both. But I thought that if he wanted to get married, he needed to do it with a woman who was also just as committed.
> 
> It is a stereotype of women that they will do that with men. But there are some men who will marry a woman hoping she will settle down.
> 
> ...


Second paragraph: I think men who are not very worldly fall in love quickly and think sex means love and it doesn't. For some, it only means they were horny and needed "some". Men and women both do that and that's okay, until they find someone who doesn't understand. Call it maturity or whatever, it makes for a mess.

PP3: I really don't believe they can change enough since they are so young. She needs her time to grow and explore. He needs time to heal, grow from reading and learning about himself and the signs he's missed in this one, and then find a more compatible spouse. Divorcing early and when young is still very hard, but there is more time to recover with guidance.

She had no right to lay it on you. She was wrong for that. Since you are here and this thread is your's, do you need her as a close friend? Is she the best type of friend for you at this point in your life? Do you have someone else who you can trust or can you find someone who you can trust besides her? She may change and grow, but she is certainly poison for someone who wants to be committed to one person. 

You seem very kind and helpful. Be careful you don't get caught in the web of craziness and forget who you are. Sometimes it's best to drop it in his lap and state you can't do much else, but cannot live with yourself if you don't let him know. Then, get ready for her onslaught. She will let it fly. 

There is a man in his thirties that lives close to me. He is the exhusband of my x2's brother's stepdaughter. I hope that's understandable. He has children that come and visit. They are fairly young. I think they are all preteen. I will call him 1. Anyway...

There is a young man who lives at another place not too far from me. He is starting his own business and doing the best he can. He seems like he is a bit ornery. He may be more than ornery. I am not certain. He lives with a woman and they seem to be either married or in a relationship. They've lived together for a few years. I don't think they have children. I will call him 2 and her 3.

1 walks passed my place and the kids across the street start teasing him for seeing some woman. No problem. I smiled and thought it was cute. Then I found out it was 3 he was seeing and it had been going on, according to the children for some time. 

I've seen 3 walk over to his place in recent history. 

I've seen 1 walk toward 3's place in recent history. 

You know what? I don't know what to do without evidence. I'd surely like to be able to anonymously send 2 an email and let him handle it. I don't want involved with their trouble, but I don't want 2 going through hell, no matter if he is a good partner or not. 

I don't have any way to get an email address. 

2 may be fine with all of it. 2 and 3 may have talked about an open marriage or relationship. I don't know. It's not really my business what they decided. I may try to find a way to let 2 know anonymously. I don't think it's fair to justify what 3 is doing by his bad behavior. 

1's ex divorced him because he was supposedly abusive, which could be but I have doubts, and the kicker, he cheated on her and could not nor would not stop. I guess that was true because he certainly has no respect for 2 and 3's relationship or marriage. 

I doubt 1 will change, but he sure gets a lot and is HD.


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## Maria Canosa Gargano (Jan 30, 2015)

2ntnuf,

It's certainly crazy how much more cheating goes on in the world than we would like to think. This may be unpopular, but if someone is not your friend and you don't know the whole situation, I don't think it is your responsibility to call someone out. They might be in an open-relationship and to call out every single person who acts immorally that we meet, would require us to spend our time and energy trying to fix everyone around us. I think when we have a bond, then it is more of our responsibility to help those we love. I do think though, if we see completely inhumane acts of violence and we can stop it, we should intervene (rape, murder, child abuse) regardless of the connection.

I am not insinuating anything about men or women...and to be honest, I don't think its about maturity either. I don't think being idealistic is bad. I see myself in him before I was cheated on. You just think that if you keep on taking responsibility and giving your all, others will reciprocate. I think its just learning that we have a lot less control than we would like. We have to strike a balance between providing leadership and letting go that which we cannot control. 

I think I will end up cutting her out of my life. I had been thinking of doing it before I found this out as every time I was with her I felt dragged down instead of relaxed and happy. I have little enough outside time of work/study that I don't like to feel that being with my friend is a chore to complete. She also wants a lot more time than any of my other friends. I was also wary of being her friend as she started to call me by endearing terms and treat me like a best friend after only a few days of meeting her. I'm not against people who can enter friendships so easy, and opening myself up to new friends is something I want to do more, but I still felt uneasy about how fast it was.

I think divorcing before kids and young is so much better than latter and with kids...but I can see how traumatic it still is.

I know for me that sex means love. I know that not everyone shares that view.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Thank you.


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## Maria Canosa Gargano (Jan 30, 2015)

Update: I talked to her last night. I told her sincerely and honestly all that I felt about what she was doing and the bad path she had already headed down. 

At first there was a lot of "Well, I'm lonely, I have nothing, my husband doesn't do enough for me..."

But I kept on pressing. She admitted to me that she wanted to be the one to conquer the other man and as she put it "to win".

Any last tie she had to my heart strings has been cut. Anyone who says that is not a friend of mine. She tried to backpedal that her husband was a good guy. I know see how this doormat issue gets started. I want to let any man here know that his wife relegates him to doormat status because of who she IS. If I felt that my fiance was not standing up for himself, I would bring that to his attention because I love and care about his well-being apart from me. Her looking at her husband as a doormat is due to the fact that she doesn't see any value from him except for a doormat.

I told her that she needs to come clean and talk to her husband about it. She said she would....but I no longer am certain about her word.

EDIT: She was also hitting on a guy at the pub we were at (alcohol is a good way to get the truth out of someone). She knows that I do not condone single behavior around me from a married woman. Neither do I appreciate it as I am in a long distance relationship with my fiance for the moment. I shut down each and every request politely. She just kept on dragging male attention back to the two of us.

EDIT EDIT: I didn't know I had so much anger about this situation. I think I feel played for a fool myself. I feel a bit of guilt for throwing a friend's reputation under the bus. I understand this is through her own actions, but I have always been against gossip. At what point does group therapy become gossip?


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Did her response and actions make you want to tell her husband? Will you or will you just let it go?

I can imagine how uncomfortable you must be with her. Friends of this guy can hit on you and make it even tougher. I can't imagine how you didn't just walk out on her and leave her there alone.


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## Maria Canosa Gargano (Jan 30, 2015)

2ntnuf said:


> Did her response and actions make you want to tell her husband? Will you or will you just let it go?
> 
> I can imagine how uncomfortable you must be with her. Friends of this guy can hit on you and make it even tougher. I can't imagine how you didn't just walk out on her and leave her there alone.


I was her ride home. No matter how disgusted I am by people's behaviors, I will not leave them high and dry if I gave them my word. Sometimes that leads me to be in the car with someone who I would rather not be with, but it means I can look myself in the eye and say that I gave my word. Only if I feel physically threatened will I refuse to keep my word.

I gave my word that I would give her time to tell her husband. While I have almost no faith that she will do that, I am giving her the chance to take responsibility for her path. I think that is the best I can give her now. 

To tell her husband....honestly harder than it seems. I am always for exposure. But while it may seem that I was best of friends with these people. They were more like faint acquaintances that I had met once or twice in a large group setting when I was living in Italy (and Italians love to gossip, which is why I know so much of their back story). When they moved to my area, it made sense to help ease them in. I have only talked to the husband two or three times as he is constantly traveling. He's trying so hard to move up from the position he is in and to step up their position financially while she is not working. I don't consider her a deep friend and since I have a constrained time frame, my interaction with her was more tour guide/staying over when her husband was not there which involved me coming over at 10pm after work and passing out while getting up at 6am to do it all over again. She and I have only had one on one time about 4 to 5 times. I was excited about being friends with her as I myself have had a bit of a struggle acclimating myself to the area I moved to for my Masters. I also was excited because it felt like a bit of love my family was sending my way by trying to get us to hang out. It was like a pre-packaged friendship.....and then it got rotten.

While others will disagree with me, I feel that my responsibility in this situation is a lot lower than if this were my sister, or someone who is a true friend. I think with such low level relationships it is ok to do a cost-benefit analysis on getting involved in others business.

Yes that sounds cruel. If I may have time to explain myself, or rugsweep, growing up I had a savior complex. I was volunteering for the military and lived, breathed, ate the military values. I tried to save everyone and everything. I realized that we have to pick and choose our battles. I don't think this is a battle I want to fight to be quite honest. 

If that lowers your respect (or any reader's) of me, I can accept it. I will not say that my way is superior and is quite easily the inferior position.

EDIT: I realize the anger might also be because I feel that she has put me between my family and her. They entrusted me with helping out a fellow paesana (I don't know any other word, but they are not that rural). They won't be angry at me for not, but I can't help but feel that my family's goodwill was taken in as well. I felt a lot more attached to her and wanted to help her a lot more because of the family connection.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

> If that lowers your respect (or any reader's) of me, I can accept it. I will not say that my way is superior and is quite easily the inferior position.


Ha! No, it makes me keep my respect for you because you have chosen a side. Your reasons seem valid, whether they sound like excuses or not. I suppose the best way would to act as if you were anonymously emailing from some cafe, so you won't be connected and from a new hotmail account. That sounds like it would require too many questions and might get you in trouble, so I understand. 

I was simply asking to see what you would do and why. None of my business, but it does help me to see other's perspectives and keep mine subjective by learning from others. I didn't ask to be able to judge you, just to think and learn. I honestly don't know what I would do. It does seem to be something you really can do nothing about and would impact you more negatively than to just get the heck away from her and make a new and better friend. See, just learning from you a little. Thanks for being open about it all.

I'd say, if the family thing is that important, just go to the one who asked and talk.


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## Maria Canosa Gargano (Jan 30, 2015)

2ntnuf said:


> Ha! No, it makes me keep my respect for you because you have chosen a side. Your reasons seem valid, whether they sound like excuses or not. I suppose the best way would to act as if you were anonymously emailing from some cafe, so you won't be connected and from a new hotmail account. That sounds like it would require too many questions and might get you in trouble, so I understand.
> 
> I was simply asking to see what you would do and why. None of my business, but it does help me to see other's perspectives and keep mine subjective by learning from others. I didn't ask to be able to judge you, just to think and learn. I honestly don't know what I would do. It does seem to be something you really can do nothing about and would impact you more negatively than to just get the heck away from her and make a new and better friend. See, just learning from you a little. Thanks for being open about it all.


I just can't get past the fact that this man is being deceived. They do not want children. That is the only blessing. 

But I have intervened in cheating before. Once was my sister's boyfriend while we were in high school. I hated her boyfriend and kept on saying I had a bad feeling about him. One day he called me and was telling me all about the sexual fantasies he had about me. I called my sister into my room and put him on speaker. I kept a calm voice even as his story got more explicit and my sister started to laugh and cry at the same time. That was worth it for me, even though it affected my high school social standing (and we all know how important that is). 

I also intervened in what I thought was an affair at a gym I worked at. It turned out it was an open relationship and that was quite embarrassing for all parties involved to come up to me and tell me thanks for the concern but stop.

I would love to say that I would oust every cheater, and with all my significant relationships I would. But I just don't see it being worth my time, effort, and social standing to out every cheater I meet and after knowing them for only a few weeks. I can't come up with an easy and practical solution to that.

EDIT: About the family. I'm not upset at them for recommending. I was wondering why I felt so upset about her confiding in me to hold the secret...yes it is about putting me in that position. But it wasn't just my goodwill feelings towards her, but also my goodwill feelings towards my family that I felt she was manipulating.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

I feel your frustration. I've offered to do things I never should have, in the name of helping out and being a good guy, when all I was being was a "nice guy". Honestly, I'd be tempted to read, "No More Mr. Nice Guy", or "Boundaries", if you haven't. Seems like they used you to some extent, and you let them just to be a good girl. You have too much to do to deal with this and finish your education, imo. 

You need some advice from some more sources here. I'm weak in this area, too. I love helping, sometimes at more cost to myself than I can afford. Sometimes with little compensation or gain in respect. Seems I was taken advantage of many times in life. You have to look out for yourself, too.


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## Maria Canosa Gargano (Jan 30, 2015)

2ntnuf said:


> I feel your frustration. I've offered to do things I never should have, in the name of helping out and being a good guy, when all I was being was a "nice guy". Honestly, I'd be tempted to read, "No More Mr. Nice Guy", or "Boundaries", if you haven't. Seems like they used you to some extent, and you let them just to be a good girl. You have too much to do to deal with this and finish your education, imo.
> 
> You need some advice from some more sources here. I'm weak in this area, too. I love helping, sometimes at more cost to myself than I can afford. Sometimes with little compensation or gain in respect. Seems I was taken advantage of many times in life. You have to look out for yourself, too.


I think No More Mr. Nice Guy will be helpful. I certainly have been better at setting up boundaries, though as I said, I grew up with a savior complex. While most situations I have been able to put up boundaries no problem, there are sometimes where I fall right back into the trap. I would say this whole fiasco can be attributed to it. 

I think a lot of times the alpha/beta advice only gets directed towards men. I think it is helpful towards women as well. We all need to learn how to set boundaries and put ourselves first.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Maria Canosa Gargano said:


> I think No More Mr. Nice Guy will be helpful. I certainly have been better at setting up boundaries, though as I said, I grew up with a savior complex. While most situations I have been able to put up boundaries no problem, there are sometimes where I fall right back into the trap. I would say this whole fiasco can be attributed to it.
> 
> I think a lot of times the alpha/beta advice only gets directed towards men. I think it is helpful towards women as well. We all need to learn how to set boundaries and put ourselves first.


You'd be surprised how many women members have read that, and used it to help their marriages. It's not suggested often any more. I don't know why. I guess those who did are no longer posting.

When my mum was still alive, I used to say she crucified herself to help others. It's good to help, but there is a limit. I didn't learn her way of being nice, turning the other cheek, but I did learn to help others at too much cost to myself. I thought at times, it would put me in their good graces, make me respectable in their eyes, help me to prove I was a good man. It didn't help much. I was disrespected for being too nice and taken advantage of at their whim. I accepted it without a second thought and smiled, then went home and complained like crazy. Had I told them "no" when I didn't want to do something, I'd have saved myself a whole pile of trouble. 

Sort of reminds me of a scene from "Animal House" where pledges were trying to get into a fraternity, and I used to say this phrase often. "Thank you. May I have another". hahaha It's actually kind of sad. 

https://youtu.be/qdFLPn30dvQ


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## Maria Canosa Gargano (Jan 30, 2015)

2ntnuf said:


> You'd be surprised how many women members have read that, and used it to help their marriages. It's not suggested often any more. I don't know why. I guess those who did are no longer posting.
> 
> When my mum was still alive, I used to say she crucified herself to help others. It's good to help, but there is a limit. I didn't learn her way of being nice, turning the other cheek, but I did learn to help others at too much cost to myself. I thought at times, it would put me in their good graces, make me respectable in their eyes, help me to prove I was a good man. It didn't help much. I was disrespected for being too nice and taken advantage of at their whim. I accepted it without a second thought and smiled, then went home and complained like crazy. Had I told them "no" when I didn't want to do something, I'd have saved myself a whole pile of trouble.
> 
> ...


I think putting up boundaries is a learned behavior. When I was younger, I was discouraged to do so. Not out of malice from my parents, but my mother was an alcoholic. In order to continue her addiction, she taught me about improper boundary keeping. It doesn't mean that people like you and I are damaged (I don't believe in that concept), but that are immediate reactions are habituated to have lower boundaries than higher. It takes a concentrated effort.

I know that certain people/situations are harder for me to have boundaries and that is with people who ask for help, even when it is detrimental to me. The average ******* on the street is easy for me to say no to. When they say that they need help and only from me, that is when the habituated way of boundary keeping kicks in.

I'm going to read that book, after this semester is over at the end of this month, and I am going to recommend you a book. Its popular so you probably have already read it "When I say No, I Feel Guilty". It has specific verbal techniques of keeping your ground without being aggressive. As well as ways to defuse situations even if the other person is being unreasonable. I can go so far to say that this book is what has enabled me to have such a successful relationship with my fiance. Instead of taking deposits out of our love banks by arguing, we just defuse the situation instead.


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## Extraordinary Way (Dec 16, 2014)

Best friends with another couple for over a decade. Red flags pop up. We fight over how to handle this while looking for opportunities to talk to wife alone. A few days later, her husband brags to mine he's dating this girl and "wife knows"

I waited until her husband went to work, came over and told her we know and need to know if shes ok. She wasn't.


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