# Not sure we are in our relationship/Help needed!



## Panther66 (Sep 30, 2014)

I could really use some female perspective. I'm sorry if this is long, but I want to paint a clear and honest picture. I would really appreciate honest feedback. 

My wife and I have been married for just under 17 years. She was 23 when we got married and I was 31. We decided to have kids right away and she was pregnant within a month of our wedding day. My wife had always been a very social person and often times had as many or more male friends as female friends. Part of what I love about her is that she is not typical and can communicate on a guys level very well. She always seemed more comfortable with guys then women friends but I never felt any lack of trust or concern about her honesty. After the kids started coming, (three in the next four years – now 16yo, 14yo and 12yo – all girls), life got very difficult for her. She was depressed and missing out on life and being social. Being a stay at home Mom was not the satisfying lifestyle choice she envisioned for herself. She loved and still does, our kids, but this life was not for her. But she refused to get a job just to put the kids in daycare.

Overall I had always considered myself a pretty good husband. I worked a good job that paid a very nice salary. I never went out without my wife and really had no life other than work and family. As my wife got more and more depressed I started to take her dislike for her lifestyle as a personal insult to me. I always thought we had a great life and she seemed to constantly be saying how she hated it. I guess what I am saying is that I stopped “really listening” to what she was saying and only hearing how things made me feel. Basically, she was just crying out for me to give her more attention, to make her feel more special. She wanted romance and I think between me being unhappy about her unhappiness and the stresses and time constraints of day to day life I just was failing in that department miserably. And when we'd fight about it, I might do some things for a week, or even a month, but I'd eventually feel like regardless of what I was doing nothing was ever going to be enough.

It took a very, very long time for all this to come to a head. About a year and a half ago we opened our own pharmacy. This was my dream and not really hers. She seemed to be all in and even dropped out of interior design classes to help with the business. I think I was hoping that working together and being together would have a positive influence on our relationship. The six months of set up were great. But once it came time to hire associates we had an immediate conflict. I wanted to hire someone who I had worked with in the past and felt was very good. My wife was opposed. I argued my point for a while and then left it go. Eventually, my wife came to me and said we should consider hiring this person. So we did. It went horribly. The girl, although very qualified, just didn't get our way of wanting to run the business. She was disrespectful toward my wife. I failed big time here, as I never put her in her place as she did these things. I think I felt like as an owner my wife should be able to handle the situation and I didn't want too much conflict at work. In the end my wife was very bitter with me about my lack of support, and rightfully so. The girl was eventually fired. Unfortunately I think I managed to push my wife even further away during this time period and she really held on to my lack of support as a lack of caring about her. 

Fast forward about one year, and things between my wife and I were only so, so at best. I think, as always, we both loved each other, but were both not very happy with the way things were going. We continued to fight where my wife felt I didn't put in enough effort and I felt like regardless of how much I did, enough would never be enough. I felt like I was fighting an “unwinnable” battle. In June everything finally came to a head. And for the first time in years I think I finally “HEARD” and understood what she was saying. I stopped looking at it from my perspective and was seeing how I had made her feel for so long. There was such desperation in her argument and such a readiness to just give up that I think it finally hit me that I could lose her.

Here's where things get more complicated. As we went our separate ways after the last fight I vowed to myself to not let her go and to give her what she wanted, needed and deserved in the way of affection and attention. The next morning I woke and still felt the same but somewhere over night it crept into my mind that there might already be someone else. Maybe it was the ease with which she was willing to walk away. So I did something I had never done up to this point in time. I went on her phone and read her text messages. I know, not a nice thing, but I had to know. Unfortunately, I saw what I was most afraid of and she was just starting to get involved with a bartender where her and her friend went out weekly. It hadn't gotten overly serious and was mostly flirting, although one night they were physically involved but only to the point of kissing each other on the neck and some petting. I approached my wife immediately about this. We fought and honestly I thought it would be over for sure. I just couldn't see myself forgiving her. We fought a lot and over the next couple of days she told me how I had made her feel for a very long time. He made her feel young, special, desirable and excited. The “relationship” so to speak was not very significant, but more like a crush is how she described it. 

After some time, I realized my lack of giving her what she begged for, for years pretty much pushed her to him, or at least away from me. I choose to forgive her, take responsibility for not being a very good husband in that manner, and we both agreed to work on our relationship and move forward. Unfortunately my trust in her was shaken and I found myself spying on her every chance I got. I know, still creepy. Call it self preservation. Unfortunately I found that she was not always as honest as I used to think she was. Over the next six to eight weeks we had some of the best most intimate times we had in years and we also had some of our biggest fights due to some of my trust issues. Just as things seemed to finally be moving behind us and we both seemed happier than I can remember for years and years, she starts to interact with some guy on a facebook page about dogs. Started harmless enough but then he said she should drunk text him sometime and that it would be fun. She politely said no, and explained the situation we just came out of. She then texted her friends and seemed to be offended by it. She asked her friends if she had **** tattooed on her forehead and explained what had just happened. I took that to be a good sign. But unfortunately instead of ending this communication with this guy she doesn't know at all, she continues it and quickly the interaction becomes more flirty. Finally I blow up about it because the timing is horrible considering where we just came from with the last indiscretion. She says they are only friends and their personalities just clicked. They are just having fun and joking around like friends. I try to not be overbearing and let this go. Then when I am looking over our phone bill I see that for several days in the beginning and ending of August they had texted each other hundreds of times each day. They literally started at 10am and every minute to at most three minutes a message went back and forth. 

Let me back track a minute here. Just prior to seeing this, he and his wife stopped in the pharmacy to meet “us” for the first time in person. I know he told his wife about my wife, but always implied her as her and I. So he was not being honest with her and my wife really wasn't sharing anything with me. I only knew because I searched for things. In those things I saw a message about this guy stopping into meet us. My wife was texting a friend and said he was coming in to meet us for the first time. Then she went on to say to her friend that they had been texting A LOT with a smiley face and that she needed to tell her about it. When I read this and put the information from the phone bill together I blew up again. Again, my wife said it was only friendship and and just basic conversation in their text messages. During my spying time I was only able to see a few texts between them as now my wife had begun to delete things. Nothing was clear cut, but several seemed at least borderline of being inappropriate. And many just put up big red flags in my mind. My wife and I are still trying to work through this. My wife has since started to become friends with this guys wife. I can't imagine her doing that if she truly was going to pursue this guy physically. And I don't think that is what she wants. But I am no more accepting of an inappropriate internet/texting relationship. Most days we are so happy and my wife seems so very in love with me. But then it still seems like she is communicating with this guy every chance she gets. I just don't get it. All the lies of this past summer have shaken my trust in her tremendously. So even though she says it's nothing and just a friendship each of those red flags is waving in my head. I wake up in the middle of the night and can't sleep. I am perfectly happy one minute and the next I feel like I am being made to look like an idiot. 

Am I wrong for being so untrusting? As a woman, can you picture yourself in this situation and do you think it could be just a friendship? This second guy is much harder for me to get over because I have been being the husband my wife asked me to be and I've been happier for it and she seems happier too. We've been going on more dates. I've been more aware of her and stay in contact throughout the day. I try to more regularly make romantic gestures to make her feel special. Our sex life is better than it has been in years. I feel way more in love with my wife than I have in a very long time but I also feel way more vulnerable and jealous at the same time. I just don't even know how to act right now. I don't want to push my wife away by being too clingy, overbearing, jealous and insecure, but I also don't want to allow something to develop that could end my marriage. As a woman, how would you hope your husband would handle this type of situation if you found yourself in this mess? I know I am a schmuck for all my snooping but once the trust was gone I felt an uncontrollable need to keep doing it. Thank you in advance for any honest answers I can get.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

Not a lady, but I think you have to look into doing these things to help your marriage out.

If you can, try to get more info on this guy and don't be afraid to spy on her if you think she's doing something inappropriate. She may be in an EA with this man, but it's possible that she has had physical contact with him on an intimate level too. You need to find out ASAP. Plenty of guys will chime in to help you get info. But the bottom line is you need to get to the bottom of how deep this "friendship" is with this other guy (OM). 

You need to be more assertive as a husband. That means you need to not let her walk all over you and make sure there is mutual respect between the both of you. But you also need to ACT like a husband, which appears you are FINALLY doing after all these years of wasted opportunity. Being a husband means not only loving your wife, romancing her and being a good listener, it also means saving her from herself if you see her going down a regretful path - like getting too close to another man. You need to nip this in the bud pronto. She needs to know that you are not OK with this man being in her life. You also need to back up this boundary enforcement by 1) making sure that your side of the street is clean and 2) you are there to step up and take your place as her man. 

Those are my thoughts.


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## Panther66 (Sep 30, 2014)

Thank you, Plan 9 from OS - I feel like I have been walking a tight rope. I have been very forward in my dislike for this relationship, for lack of a better word. We have argued and her point is that we argue and argue and I just don't believe her so there is no point arguing any more. My point is I don't believe her because she has lied numerous times recently and her explanations require me to accept things on faith which is thin right now. A year ago, I would have never doubted my wife's love or honesty. Today I am shaken to the core as far as trust goes. We both know it can't go on like this. She says she is willing to walk away from the friendship but I just feel like that may make her hide it even more. I don't trust that she would actually end it. On the other hand if it is truly just a friendship I would be ok with it, but it feels to me like this is a case of a mutual attraction and some serious communication online to what extreme I don't know. I would not be ok if it includes sexting or pictures that are inappropriate. I just wish I could trust her again.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

She needs to be made aware that this "friendship" with the OM makes you uncomfortable and you ask that she end the friendship. She will call you controlling certainly. However, past activity of your W has lead you to this point. You are now attempting to right the wrong you have done for years. Her participating in what you want to make right would be appreciated. OM in the picture does not allow you to be that person you should have been in years past. In short, OM is sabotaging anything you attempt to do in making your marriage the best it can be. She needs to see this and be a part of the solution to a better marriage. Right now it is like driving a car with one flat tire(OM). It does not roll well.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Eventually you have to say screw it and stop being afraid.
I as a man don't want my wife having direct communications and friendship with another man. Does that make me jealous and insecure? I have no idea and I don't care. It's just not something I wish to tolerate. If my wife ever decides to strike something up, she will be given a choice between that and her marriage to me. Hopefully I have done a good enough job as a husband to make her choose her marriage over her friendship. If I have not, then so be it. I will own my part. But I will not ever compromise what I personally need in my marriage merely because I was not the ideal husband and or made mistakes in the past.


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## 6301 (May 11, 2013)

I'm a guy too and I got to tell you that it takes two to make a marriage work and so far there's only one and that's you.

First it was the bartender and now the "dog guy". You forgave the first time and for some reason she keeps going off the deep end. Once is bad enough but now it's twice and enough is enough.

If it was me, we have a real mother of all serious conversations and let her know that she has one foot in the grave and the other on a banana peel and your getting in a mood to give her a nudge.

I would consult lawyer and let her know that you are doing it and your ready to push the button on her and she can go off and train dogs with this guy if she wants.

If she really wants the marriage to work, then telling you "I love you" isn't good enough. Actions speak louder than words and what you need from her is action and real soon or she's out the door and your slamming it behind her. Let her know this in a way she understands that your at the end of the line with her and her behavior and she's going to have to work her fanny off to regain your trust and don't back down one bit. 

You did that once and it got you no where.


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## Panther66 (Sep 30, 2014)

So far you are all saying how I feel. I have started to look into divorce lawyers. I hate the idea though. We have a business that we own 50/50 and we have both put a lot into it. But by the same token I am not going to sacrifice and settle for a half ass relationship for the business. We also have three kids at home together. I know, most divorces, face similar obstacles. 

Like I said in the opening. She has always had a lot of male friends and I don't believe there was ever an issue up until recently. And I am normally secure enough to not worry about a male friend, but the bartender issue, the lies, and the way this new "friendship" has developed and seems to be surrounded in deceit has me ready to give up. I just don't want to walk away and be wrong about this, because I do love my wife very much and other than this guy, day day our time together makes me feel like there couldn't be a problem. So either she has become an amazing actress, which could be, or I might be worried where it's not called for??? I just don't know.


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## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

I know you don't like the snooping but it may help you if you could get the deleted text just see how inappropriate this may be.
You could also consult with the OM's wife to let her know that you feel it may be more then just casual friends, but you should have some hard evidence to show this before talking to OM's wife.

you also might consider a VAR (voice activated recorder) when you are not around if she talks to OM.

The bartender guy sounds like it has somewhat been rug swept and that is not good, it happens a lot


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## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

Your wife befriending the OM's wife triggered me because that is what my WW did--- my wife did this to put me at easy and get closer to OM.


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

Panther66 said:


> So far you are all saying how I feel. I have started to look into divorce lawyers. I hate the idea though. We have a business that we own 50/50 and we have both put a lot into it. But by the same token I am not going to sacrifice and settle for a half ass relationship for the business. We also have three kids at home together. I know, most divorces, face similar obstacles.
> 
> Like I said in the opening. She has always had a lot of male friends and I don't believe there was ever an issue up until recently. And I am normally secure enough to not worry about a male friend, but the bartender issue, the lies, and the way this new "friendship" has developed and seems to be surrounded in deceit has me ready to give up. I just don't want to walk away and be wrong about this, because I do love my wife very much and other than this guy, day day our time together makes me feel like there couldn't be a problem. So either she has become an amazing actress, which could be, or I might be worried where it's not called for??? I just don't know.


spyware for her cell phone to read texts and a VAR in her car to catch what she's saying. You need to get her to end the EA but also need to know there is no PA as well. Sounds like a midlife crisis where things can go wrong fast. Keep us updated


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Your wife having male friends was always an issue.

You have only discovered it to be a problem recently as you are trying to invest in building up your marriage. You are tripping on this becuase you realize you are not on safe enough ground to give 100% to your marriage.


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## x598 (Nov 14, 2012)

panther stop beating yourself up over this. your story has MANY similarities to many here if you take the time to read other threads.

first, the poor unhappy wife syndrome she has......that she BLAMES ON YOU is mostly a load of BS. were you the perfect husband? doubt it. but then again, NEITHER WAS SHE. the root of her unhappiness comes from issues SHE needs to deal with. 

second, none of any of this justifies an affair. and thats what she is doing. maybe she hasnt shagged anyone yet, you just caught it early.

third, your wife is in an emotional state where she is calling the shots and has you on egg shells. this is a recipe for disaster as long as this is going on, she will justify and re-write things as she see's fit to pull off any shady behaviour.

so what do you do about all this?

serious counseling is in order. stop being the doormat trying to fix (in your mind) all this. there has to be consequences for her actions. social media GONE today. passwords to any accounts, full transparency etc. read about the 180. your wife is in a fog and needs a huge dose of reality thrown at her.


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

> During my spying time I was only able to see a few texts between them as now my wife had begun to delete things. Nothing was clear cut, but several seemed at least borderline of being inappropriate. And many just put up big red flags in my mind.


This is because the texts that are blatantly inappropriate are the deleted ones. It's a massive red flag. Well done.

If you were to bring this up with her now (don't) she will say "I didn't want you to worry" or "She didn't want you to get the wrong idea". This is 'Cheater Logic' and in never make sense. The only way she could put your mind at ease would be let you see what she is texting him and he is texting her. The only reason to destroy evidence is because she's guilty. Don't confront her now. One of the tech bods will let you know how to retrieve deleted texts. 

Just know you do have a problem on your hands. Sorry you're here fella.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

x598 said:


> panther stop beating yourself up over this. your story has MANY similarities to many here if you take the time to read other threads.
> 
> first, the poor unhappy wife syndrome she has......that she BLAMES ON YOU is mostly a load of BS. were you the perfect husband? doubt it. but then again, *NEITHER WAS SHE. the root of her unhappiness comes from issues SHE needs to deal with.*


Couldn't agree more. Her unhappiness with being a stay-at-home mom set the stage for discontent, feelings of inadequacy, "who am I?", "is this ALL there is?" Not your issue, hers. She could have gone back to work part-time but chose not to. This is all being projected at you over the years. 



x598 said:


> ...your wife is in an emotional state where she is calling the shots and has you on egg shells. this is a recipe for disaster as long as this is going on, she will justify and re-write things as she see's fit to pull off any shady behaviour.


Pay attention to this. Why let her have the power? She is in the wrong. Male friendships because "she has always had male friends" is not conducive to a healthy marriage, especially after what she put you through with the bartender.

Tell her to join a women's koffee-klatch or knitting club . Anything besides hanging out with men, whether in bars or on social media.



x598 said:


> serious counseling is in order. stop being the doormat trying to fix (in your mind) all this. there has to be consequences for her actions. social media GONE today. passwords to any accounts, full transparency etc. read about the 180. your wife is in a fog and needs a huge dose of reality thrown at her.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

All of the above in that last quote. Pronto.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

Panther66 said:


> After some time, I realized my lack of giving her what she begged for, for years pretty much pushed her to him, or at least away from me. I choose to forgive her, take responsibility for not being a very good husband in that manner, and we both agreed to work on our relationship and move forward.


 Stop buying into the cheaters script. Cheaters try to hold their spouses to a standard of perfection that they do not hold to themselves. They do this because they know that by such a standard their spouse as a human will always fail. They want you to fail because they want to blame shift their cheating as being your fault. Ironically, your willingness to accept blame and to work harder to make her happy only proves that her reason for cheating is fake. Accepting blame for not being perfect is a game that you cannot win, so stop playing it.



Panther66 said:


> Unfortunately my trust in her was shaken and I found myself spying on her every chance I got. I know, still creepy. Call it self preservation.


 In a healthy marriage, the only time there should be an expectation of privacy is when you are using the bathroom. Only cheaters will argue otherwise. Cheaters value privacy as being more important than their marriage vows.



Panther66 said:


> she starts to interact with some guy on a facebook page about dogs. Started harmless enough but then he said she should drunk text him sometime and that it would be fun. She politely said no, and explained the situation we just came out of. She then texted her friends and seemed to be offended by it. She asked her friends if she had **** tattooed on her forehead and explained what had just happened.


 Yes, she does have a tattoo on her. That tattoo is her willingness to cross normal opposite sex friend (OSF) martial boundaries. Many couples have boundaries against even having any OSF, but those that do have boundaries that are open to OSF require that the OSF be a friend of the marriage, and that they will respect their spouse when they become concerned with any particular OSF. By you not making an issue of the many OSF that your wife has had over the years, you have proven that you are reasonable. The other man wanting to drunk text with your wife as he flirts with her has proven that he is not a friend of the marriage. 



Panther66 said:


> But unfortunately instead of ending this communication with this guy she doesn't know at all, she continues it and quickly the interaction becomes more flirty. Finally I blow up about it because the timing is horrible considering where we just came from with the last indiscretion. She says they are only friends and their personalities just clicked. They are just having fun and joking around like friends. I try to not be overbearing and let this go. Then when I am looking over our phone bill I see that for several days in the beginning and ending of August they had texted each other hundreds of times each day.


 Texting hundreds of times a day is text book proof of an emotional affair (EA). The fact that they are flirty only confirms this. An EA is cheating as she is putting energy into another man that she should be spending on you. Read “His Needs, Her Needs” today.



Panther66 said:


> During my spying time I was only able to see a few texts between them as now my wife had begun to delete things. Nothing was clear cut, but several seemed at least borderline of being inappropriate. And many just put up big red flags in my mind. My wife and I are still trying to work through this.


 Deleting of texts is what cheater in EAs do. I bet that she is not deleting your texts or the texts from her family. Demand that she stop deleting texts from anyone. As and FYI, on average, a single iTune song takes up the same space as 45,000 text messages, so deleting to save space is not needed.



Panther66 said:


> My wife has since started to become friends with this guys wife. I can't imagine her doing that if she truly was going to pursue this guy physically.


 Sorry but start imagining it. This is what cheaters commonly do to gain easier physical access to their affair partner.



Panther66 said:


> I don't want to push my wife away by being too clingy, overbearing, jealous and insecure, but I also don't want to allow something to develop that could end my marriage.


 Cheaters will always claim that by trying to protect your marriage from an EA that it is bound to go physical if it has not already, that you are “clingy, overbearing, jealous and insecure”. If you read other threads on this or other infidelity forums, you will see that they say this almost 100% of the time when they are pursuing their affair. It is right out of the cheaters script. Do not buy into it.

Again, she is in at least an EA with this other man. You need to lay down the law and demand full no contact with this other man for life. You need to demand full transparency that includes both of you sharing passwords and agreeing not to delete message without showing them to each other. Be willing to back this up with filing for divorce and meaning it. If she is willing to let you divorce over this other man, then you know that your concerns were real. The longer that you take to do this, the harder that it will be for her to end the affair.


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## Panther66 (Sep 30, 2014)

Thank you all. You have all pretty much confirmed what I was thinking. Unfortunately there is nothing I want more right now than to make this relationship work. So I know I have been bending over backward to try and accommodate her and make her happy. I have tried to be tolerant. I know I shouldn't. I get confused though, because our relationship (outside of my worries about this guy) has not ever felt stronger. I am not the only one to look for intimacy. My wife will come over and just snuggle and say how much she loves me. She will initiate sex more and we truly seem happier day to day. But obviously this issue has weighed on me enough to be here looking for advice and I appreciate it all.

Timing never feels right but then again I guess there isn't really a right time to start heading down the road to divorce, is there?


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

Does your wife make you feel as good as she wants you to make her feel ?











You are the donkey. The carrot is her emotional needs.
You will never reach her expectations becAause it is likely that is her way of controlling you through guilt.

Confront this man and ask him to back off. Your wife is deleting texts for a reason. I wouldn't be surprised if the relationship is physical. After all, she is a SAHM and he lives locally. It is likely that their communication method is no longer FB as it had been compromised



Tell his wife.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

Panther,

Your WW is in an EA with current OM for sure.

Tell this POS's W about his drunk text request and the sheer volume of texts they have been exchanging, as well as the fact you know your WW has been deleting texts, a sure sign of inappropriate communication if there ever was one.

Another poster, Convert I think, also pointed out that it appears you have rugswept the first OM incident.

I think you need to seriously reevaluate what really happened there once you squash this current EA.

How do you know you have the full truth of what happened?...that it never went beyond kissing/groping?...that there was only a one time occurrence?

The fact that she has so quickly jumped into another inappropriate relationship tells me that, one, this was definitely rugswept and you never got the full story of what went down, and , two, she feels she got away with it once so why not have some more fun?

You need to put her on notice that you are on the verge of filing for D if this entire mess doesn't get resolved ASAP.

The current EA needs to end immediately and no contact from this point forward....informing POS's BW will help ensure the A dies quick and stays dead in all likelihood.

Then inform her that you need the full story of POS 1 and what actually happened.

Tell her to come clean immediately, and her story will be confirmed by a polygraph, or you will file for D in short order.

She has to see that she is about to lose her life as she knows it if she doesn't start acting appropriately, which includes being honest with her BH about how she has betrayed her vows.

And have no doubt, she has already done that TWICE....you just are not fully aware of the extent of her betrayal in either case.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Although your wife was 23 when you married, she now seems to have the emotional maturity of a girl of 15 or 16.

She needs to grow up.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

warlock07 said:


> You are the donkey. The carrot is her emotional needs.
> You will never reach her expectations becAause it is likely that is her way of controlling you through guilt.


 :iagree::iagree::iagree:
QFT - This is one of the best quotes that I have read on this forum in a long time.


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## zeroday (Oct 1, 2014)

note that the uptick in intimacy can be guilt or even a strategy to keep you in the dark.

go to Married Man Sex Life | How to have the marriage you thought you were going to have. By which I mean doing it like rabbits. immediately for more support how to deal with this.

read
marriedman sex life
not just friends
no mor mr nice guy

YOur wife has **** boundaries and you are tiptoeing because you are in a weak position. MMSL will give you the steps to address this and the forum members are great


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## Voltaire2013 (Sep 22, 2013)

OP,

You sound like a nice guy & I mean that as a compliment as well as a criticism, read this: https://7chan.org/lit/src/Robert_Glover_-_No_More_Mr_Nice_Guy.pdf

It's a bit of an eye opener, has helped me and many others here greatly. 
Have either of you considered Marriage Counseling?

Cheers,
V(13)


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Panther

Don't rush to the divorce attorney just yet.

Sure you weren't the best husband for a long time. 

You own 50% of the marriage issues. Keep fixing them.

But what your wife did was wrong. Would she like it if you were making out with the local bartender? Or chatting up a favorite pet lover on FB?

Maybe you should take your wife to the divorce attorney with you???

But for now clean up your act. Be the man. Be the leader of your family.

And do not take your wifes crap. If you doubt if you are over reacting then ease up on the snooping. Ease up on looking over her shoulder.

Give her the rope to hang herself.

You cannot control her.

But you can show her that no matter what happens to your marriage you will be just fine with her or without her.

Also let her know that you love her but infidelity in any form (emotion and/or physical) is a deal breaker.

Set those boundaries. Make them clear to her.

Then step back and observe.

You will know soon enough if she can be trusted. 

Keep posting.

HM


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## Sports Fan (Aug 21, 2014)

First and formost your wife is befriending his wife so she has an excuse to pop over there and interact with him.

You are way too hard on yourself. Your wife has lied, cheated, and gas lighted you. 

When you caught the first affair with the bar tender you should of ended all her interactions with other men period. Instead you rug swept, allowed her to gaslight you that its your fault and you swallowed it.

You dont need to go into spy mode in your case you already have enough evidence.

What you need to do is grow a back bone, sit your wife down and tell her that given her recent history of unfaithfulness she needs to stop communicating with all men period, give you open access to Facebook, Phone, and Email.

If she is not willing to do this tell her you are done and filing for Divorce.

You cannot nice your way out of this. Look where being nice and rug sweeping has got you so far.

Unless you take affirmative action now you will be in for more heartbraek and lies.


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## Panther66 (Sep 30, 2014)

Well, I took the first step today. I've started calling lawyers. Holy crap are they expensive! How do you afford divorce? Seriously the minimum retainer was $2000 and the couple that I really wanted were $5000. Anybody have experience with any good lawyers in Delaware, that aren't crazy expensive?

Once I have the lawyer set up, then I am going to my wife from a position of strength. I want her to know I am serious and that I have already started the ball rolling. It's time to make some serious decisions and either fix this or end it. I hate this unknown status that seems to hang over us because of this other guy.


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## x598 (Nov 14, 2012)

Panther66 said:


> Well, I took the first step today. I've started calling lawyers. Holy crap are they expensive! How do you afford divorce? Seriously the minimum retainer was $2000 and the couple that I really wanted were $5000. Anybody have experience with any good lawyers in Delaware, that aren't crazy expensive?
> 
> Once I have the lawyer set up, then I am going to my wife from a position of strength. I want her to know I am serious and that I have already started the ball rolling. It's time to make some serious decisions and either fix this or end it. I hate this unknown status that seems to hang over us because of this other guy.


i would pack her bags TODAY. you can also print out many of the divorce forms. when she freaks that you inform her you no longer wish to be living with a cheater, tell er you have the forms right here to go over with her.

when she tries to tell you ti wasnt really an affiar, it wasnt what it seems, tell her to go explain that to her paretns or whoever she is going to be staying with.

she will probably refuse to leave and you cant legally force her to, so i would pack my bags. she simply wont get the message you are serious any other way becasue you have been a door matt for so long. she will probably think you are bluffing ny getting a lawyer or wont go through with it. thats why seperating is a must, a cold hard dose of reality. and she seriously needs it.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

Panther66 said:


> She says she is willing to walk away from the friendship but I just feel like that may make her hide it even more. I don't trust that she would actually end it. *On the other hand if it is truly just a friendship I would be ok with it,* but it feels to me like this is a case of a mutual attraction and some serious communication online to what extreme I don't know. I would not be ok if it includes sexting or pictures that are inappropriate. I just wish I could trust her again.


Marital boundaries vary from couple to couple. But I can tell you that many, if not most husband's would not accept opposite sex friendships for their wife. But if you're one of those couples with loose boundaries - that ends if she has given you reason not to trust her. There's *no way* you should accept her having any opposite sex friends given her history.

Another thing. Given the volume of texts and her deleting of texts - you have to assume this was/is "at least" an EA - and you shouldn't rule out a PA.

Keep monitoring her for a few weeks to see if you can find that smoking gun. Don't confront her about "cheating" again until you do. Put a VAR in her car, a key logger on her computer, spyware on her cell. Keep checking her cell records. If you come up with nothing; great. But if you don't, the next step is to tell her you will no longer accept her communicating with opposite sex friends; and tell her why.

If she doesn't agree - see an attorney, start the divorce process, and implement the 180 to detach.

Good luck and keep posting.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

warlock07 said:


> Does your wife make you feel as good as she wants you to make her feel ?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Normally I agree with warlock. However, you need to get the deleted messages asap. Before this gets physical which will bd very soon if it hasntalready happened.
Download the two books in my signature at amazon. Make your wife read NOT JUST FRIENDS . You read them both today/tonight.

Get the deleted texts, notify his wife then wait for the storm.

Unless you are willing to threaten the om and carry through, do not talk to him. It will just come off as weak and begging him not to steal your wife.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Panther66 said:


> Well, I took the first step today. I've started calling lawyers. Holy crap are they expensive! How do you afford divorce? Seriously the minimum retainer was $2000 and the couple that I really wanted were $5000. Anybody have experience with any good lawyers in Delaware, that aren't crazy expensive?
> 
> Once I have the lawyer set up, then I am going to my wife from a position of strength. I want her to know I am serious and that I have already started the ball rolling. It's time to make some serious decisions and either fix this or end it. I hate this unknown status that seems to hang over us because of this other guy.


Its too soon to lawyer up. When they get involved it will almost assuredly be a disaster. You still have a chance to save this.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Look up weightlifters instructions for investigating these situations. The thread is on the first cwi page currently.

Investigate then pounce.

The worst tool to save a marriage is separation. 20%success rate.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

What kind of phone does your wife have?

Start preparing to expose the affair to your daughters, family and friends. Cheaters run like roaches when the light is shined on them.

Is she still going out with toxic girl friend?


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## Panther66 (Sep 30, 2014)

Voltaire2013 said:


> OP,
> 
> You sound like a nice guy & I mean that as a compliment as well as a criticism, read this: https://7chan.org/lit/src/Robert_Glover_-_No_More_Mr_Nice_Guy.pdf
> 
> ...


We had talked about it. And we were both willing, but it never happened and I felt like we had honestly worked through the first issue and we were doing so much better until the new guy entered the picture. It is just mind blowing to me. I saw the initial communication and it started out pretty innocently and although there were never blatant remarks that I saw there was clear flirty type of comments, and then it just seemed to explode into non stop communication. 

Last night was my wife's 40th birthday. I really had no intention of bringing this subject up yesterday but by the end of the night we were fighting about it again. I told her that I felt we needed counseling so I am going to start looking into it today. It's that or divorce I am afraid.


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## Panther66 (Sep 30, 2014)

Chaparral said:


> What kind of phone does your wife have?
> 
> Start preparing to expose the affair to your daughters, family and friends. Cheaters run like roaches when the light is shined on them.
> 
> Is she still going out with toxic girl friend?


iPhone 5


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

If the increase in sex was before her ea that's good. If it started after the ea, that's very bad. Increase or decrease in sex is a red flag for a pa.

Quit talking to her about it. They will go totally underground and you will have no idea what's really going on.

Again, what kind of phone does she have. There is a good chance you can get deleted texts.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Stop talking. Start investigating and getting proof of the cheating. Once you have enough proof, tell her you have it and you want it to stop. When she refuses, call her family and best friend and inform them, ask them to talk to her or she's going to end up divorced.


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## Roselyn (Sep 19, 2010)

I am a woman; married at 22 years of age; married for 34 years this year; first time marriage for both my husband and I.

I agree with Sports Fan. Your wife is playing with fire. She is consciously befriending another man's wife so that she can get closer to her husband.

Talk to your wife about her behavior. Stand firmly on your ground that no male friend is tolerated for her, especially this man. Talk to his wife and bust your own wife before it gets any further.

Be assertive and do not be a victim to your wife. She has an evil streak. Please open your eyes.


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## Melvynman (Mar 19, 2014)

I am going to give some "out of left field" insight about women; 43% of women are sexually dysfunctional. 54% of married women have affairs. That means 97% of married women either are having affairs or are sexually dysfunctional, only 3% have healthy enjoyable sex with their husbands. 

Your wife is extremely normal. No licensed MC is going to tell you what I am about to tell you! If you can keep her monogamous to protect your ego she will become sexually dysfunctional! For the last few thousand years since the invention of agriculture we have been try to keep women monogamous. Women are not by design monogamous animals. Your wife is fighting her internal instincts, human evolution designed her to be promiscuous. Ignorance is not bliss when it comes humans sexuality. If you want a sexually healthy women in your life your going to have re-educate yourself and do some soul searching. We are damaging women and ruing family by insisting women be monogamous, when they can't be monogamous and sexually healthy for life! 97% can't do it! Good luck.


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## IWantGreatMarriage (May 20, 2014)

OP, I didn't read all the responses, just your post and I answer as a woman:
Can I picture myself in such situation? As a single woman, probably though I have no reason to be communicating so much with a married man. It's also possible to just be friendship
As a married woman? I really don't need to because am aware that things can easily get out of hand. I know it can be innocent, but why should I take the chance/risk of it becoming something more? As my husband has put it before, it starts from being just friends. So no, for the sake of my marriage, I will not put myself in such position.
If I do, I hope my husband will tell me this: "IWGM, I know and believe you have no dirty intention with this guy, but it makes me uncomfortable. Besides, he is a guy and guys don't just chat for chat's sake."...or any variation of the above.
In fact, knowing that your trust is still shaky, your wife has no business chatting with this guy that much no matter how innocent she thinks it is. 
Or maybe she was forgiven too soon previously?


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

Melvynman said:


> I am going to give some "out of left field" insight about women; 43% of women are sexually dysfunctional. 54% of married women have affairs. That means 97% of married women either are having affairs or are sexually dysfunctional, only 3% have healthy enjoyable sex with their husbands.



Statistics fail. There could be an overlap


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

warlock07 said:


> Statistics fail. There could be an overlap


I suspect those "statistics" were pulled out of someone's nether regions...

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Almost every study comes up with about a thirty percent cheating rate for men and women.

Check Gus Polinski's posts and weightlifter's thread. Deleted texts can be retrieved on iPhones .

I think the program and ou need is wondershare. It retrieves the messages from the iTunes back up.

Act as if everything is good until you find out how deep this. The caveat is that it could go physical quickly.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

Melvynman said:


> I am going to give some "out of left field" insight about women; 43% of women are sexually dysfunctional. 54% of married women have affairs. That means 97% of married women either are having affairs or are sexually dysfunctional, only 3% have healthy enjoyable sex with their husbands.
> 
> Your wife is extremely normal. No licensed MC is going to tell you what I am about to tell you! If you can keep her monogamous to protect your ego she will become sexually dysfunctional! For the last few thousand years since the invention of agriculture we have been try to keep women monogamous. Women are not by design monogamous animals. Your wife is fighting her internal instincts, human evolution designed her to be promiscuous. Ignorance is not bliss when it comes humans sexuality. If you want a sexually healthy women in your life your going to have re-educate yourself and do some soul searching. We are damaging women and ruing family by insisting women be monogamous, when they can't be monogamous and sexually healthy for life! 97% can't do it! Good luck.


okey dokey then


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## Panther66 (Sep 30, 2014)

Chaparral said:


> If the increase in sex was before her ea that's good. If it started after the ea, that's very bad. Increase or decrease in sex is a red flag for a pa.
> 
> Quit talking to her about it. They will go totally underground and you will have no idea what's really going on.
> 
> Again, what kind of phone does she have. There is a good chance you can get deleted texts.


It started after we worked through her affair with the bartender. We spent a couple of weeks working through those issues and then our relationship seemed to flourish. This was probably about 4-6 weeks before she first "met" (online) this new guy. I know this as fact because I personally read the entire interaction of their meeting online. Our relationship has seemed so much better since we worked through the bartender issue, but I am having HUGE trust issues now that this new communication started. Had I never known about this new guy, that she has been messaging excessively, I would believe we are both happier now than just about any time in our marriage. It feels so very real and I want to believe that it is real and that this guy is really just a friend, but I just don't. I truly don't think it has gotten physical but I do think it has gotten too personal and way to excessive. And in my mind that is not acceptable either.

I'm stuck trying to sift through different advice. Some say wait and look for proof. Some say make her end it immediately, but then I worry it might just go more underground and I just won't see it. I don't want this marriage to end, but I can't go on living a married life in the unknown. I am willing to walk away. I don't deserve to even have to have these doubts. I just don't

I've read what many on here have said, and a lot of what I am hearing sounds so much like other people's experiences that turned out badly.


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## BobSimmons (Mar 2, 2013)

Panther66 said:


> Thank you all. You have all pretty much confirmed what I was thinking. Unfortunately there is nothing I want more right now than to make this relationship work. So I know I have been bending over backward to try and accommodate her and make her happy. I have tried to be tolerant. I know I shouldn't. I get confused though, because our relationship (outside of my worries about this guy) has not ever felt stronger. I am not the only one to look for intimacy. *My wife will come over and just snuggle and say how much she loves me. She will initiate sex more and we truly seem happier day to day. *But obviously this issue has weighed on me enough to be here looking for advice and I appreciate it all.
> 
> *Timing never feels right* but then again I guess there isn't really a right time to start heading down the road to divorce, is there?


Timing never feels right because you're always off balance.

Not saying your wife doesn't mean the affection etc or that she doesn't love you, but she knows you're at defcon 5, all the affection certainly wont erase your mistrust but it does keep you off balance with regards of what to do in moving forward.

She cuts off this friendship with OM's wife and OM, hundreds of texts is not a friendship. Friendship or not she needs to cut this stuff out.


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## OldWolf57 (Mar 20, 2012)

What I don't get is her being so into him friend wise, BUT see it's eating you up and won't quit it for your sake.

AND while you are looking for shrinks, get 1 that has experience with cheating.
Many DON"T, and they do more harm than good.

Had a guys shrink told him it was Ok for his wife to have a tight male buddy,,, yep, she was cheating.
He came here, did as advised, and got the good on her.
He also did it in front of the shrink, got 3 with 1 shots so to speak.
POS, wifey, and shrink.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Panther66 said:


> I'm stuck trying to sift through different advice. Some say wait and look for proof. Some say make her end it immediately, but then I worry it might just go more underground and I just won't see it. I don't want this marriage to end, but I can't go on living a married life in the unknown. I am willing to walk away. I don't deserve to even have to have these doubts.


Panther, the bottom line is this - you deserve a wife who respects you (as she deserves a husband who respects her). If your marriage isn't THAT, then you need to make a decision. The question is, at what POINT do you make that decision? Do you want to wait til you have a smoking gun? Do you want to just say stop or I leave? This is all what you have to decide. You CAN just walk away right now and say I don't deserve this. Odds are good that that will be enough to wake her up, if she's not just flat out cheating.

But this shouldn't be about that. It should be about what you can handle. if you're confident enough to just walk away and see if she really wants you, that's the way to do it with the most integrity. But you know yourself.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

The reason for waiting is to see how deep this is. I would want to know if it was a pa. Also, you need tools set up to see if it goes underground after a major hard confrontation and ultimatum. Cheaters lie and are good at it.

The ea is established. How many times a day does she text him compared to you? Case closed. EAs are as damaging, as you have noted reading other threads, as many PAs. She is getting her emotional needs from another man. They have to be killed completely just like any other drug addiction. A soft confrontation without proof will drive it underground, burner phones, untraceable texting apps, secret emails etc. 

Putting a var in her car, getting the wondershare program, should give you everything in a very few days, not weeks. Time is not on your side. A real confontation needs to be soon but with the proper strategy in place. Jumping the gun is worse than no confrontationat all.

Have you found th


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Melvynman said:


> I am going to give some "out of left field" insight about women; 43% of women are sexually dysfunctional. 54% of married women have affairs. That means 97% of married women either are having affairs or are sexually dysfunctional, only 3% have healthy enjoyable sex with their husbands.
> 
> Your wife is extremely normal. No licensed MC is going to tell you what I am about to tell you! If you can keep her monogamous to protect your ego she will become sexually dysfunctional! For the last few thousand years since the invention of agriculture we have been try to keep women monogamous. Women are not by design monogamous animals. Your wife is fighting her internal instincts, human evolution designed her to be promiscuous. Ignorance is not bliss when it comes humans sexuality. If you want a sexually healthy women in your life your going to have re-educate yourself and do some soul searching. We are damaging women and ruing family by insisting women be monogamous, when they can't be monogamous and sexually healthy for life! 97% can't do it! Good luck.


Just so you know... these numbers assume no overlap.

As for the rest of it... while there are a few scant morsels of truth in there, I wouldn't quite say that it's "out of left field", per se... more like _not even in the same ballpark_. And probably not even in a "ballpark" at all... more like an arena football stadium.

On the other side of town.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Panther66 said:


> iPhone 5


_*Panther, read this...*_

Wondershare Dr. Fone

The above link is for the Mac version of Wondershare's Dr. Fone app. There is a Windows version available as well.

You can use the app in one of three ways...

1. Start the app on your Mac or PC and connect the iPhone in order to export texts (SMS/iMessage, and even some 3rd party apps), pics, recent phone calls, voicemails, contacts, etc directly from the phone.

2. Start the app and use it to export the same data from one or more locally-stored iTunes backups of the phone.

3. Start the app and log into iCloud using the Apple iTunes user ID (this will be an e-mail address) and password that your wife uses w/ her phone. If she has iCloud backups enabled on her phone, you'll be able to use the app to download several of the most recent backups for her phone, and then export the data mentioned above from them.

The app will allow you to export any of the above data that hasn't been deleted, _as well as *at least some of* what has been recently deleted_. If you don't find anything conclusive on the first pass, you can always begin exporting once or twice a day.

Make sure that you save and back up your exports! Use a USB memory stick or external hard drive (something that you can hide easily) to store them and, once you feel that you have enough evidence, consider leaving it in a safe deposit box. Additionally, store everything offsite in at least a couple of different "Cloud" locations (Carbonite, Dropbox, Google Drive, SugarSync, etc). When doing this, make sure that you're simply uploading the data instead of syncing it from your local Mac or PC; if you're simply syncing, and your wife finds and deletes the data locally, you'll lose your Cloud-based backups.

*And this...*

Note that either #1 or #3 will likely trigger a notification e-mail sent to the e-mail account tied to his Apple iTunes/iCloud account. Going w/ #2 might trigger a notification as well... not sure. Be ready for it either way. Honestly, if you're able to access his e-mail account from a Mac or PC, you'd be better off putting a filter or rule in place to deal w/ those e-mails as they come in.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Here's one way this works. Print it off to show how men use the internet like a pick up bar. show it to your wife.

*F-102 made a great post about how these things progress:


Quote:
Originally Posted by F-102 View Post 
It may have gone something like this:

They first start catching up, and it's all "How you been doing? What have you been up to?"

Then it would have morphed into talk about:

What they've been doing since they parted
Their significant others since they parted
Their families
Their favorite music, movies, etc.
Their spouses
You
Your job
How your job keeps you away
How lonely she gets when you're away
How she looks forward to their conversations all the time now
How she loves talking to him
How she gets "bored" talking to you
How you don't always listen
How you're not "perfect"
How you can be so insensitive sometimes
How she wonders if she would have stayed with him
How he understands her
How he knows how to make her feel good
How you fail at this
How you are such an a**hole
How she feels young again
How she hasn't felt this happy with you in so long
How he's a better man than you'll ever be
How she wants to see him again
How they can meet under the radar
How she's thought of leaving you
How she ever could have fallen for a jerk like you
How he's her soul mate
How she made a big mistake leaving him
How she made an even bigger mistake marrying you
How they were meant to be together...

...get the picture? 

She secretly contacted him behind your back - RED FLAG 
She created a secret facebook account to facilitate contact with him behind your back - RED FLAG 
She told him to wait till things settle down and contact her on the secret facebook account - RED FLAG 
She would NOT have stopped contact with him if you hadn't found out about it 
She's playing the privacy card. What she wants is secrecy. There is no secrey in marriage. Privacy is when you go to the bathroom 
*


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

And this from a poster that is no longer here: (by the way, this isn't me. I don't know who originally made this) 

*Findingmyway was a player, I don't know if he comes on here much now, but he did leave a point of view thread although I can't find it. He posted something similar to me, here it is.:
***********************************************

My perspective- as a serial cheat. Before I start, I'm no GQ model look alike and I'm not wealthy.

For me, it was always about extra sex. The thrill of the chase and ego boost was a plus, but I just wanted more sex than my wife did. I always loved my wife and certainly never ever wanted to leave her or lose her. Especially not over someone else's wayward wife.

I had a simple method. I used it because it worked. I targeted married women. I figured they were safer for several important reasons.
1- Less likely to be sleeping around with random guys (STDs).
2- Less likely to pull the crazy girlfriend BS and call my wife.
3- In case of an unwanted pregnancy, I had a built in schmuck to pay the tab and would have claimed to have had a vasectomy.

The most important part of being a player is to hide it. I started with shy looks making certain I'd get caught and then doing my best to look embarrassed. If she started to come around more or dress sexier then I'd try a safe compliment. If she called me on my BS (yes, it happened) I simply acted highly offended. After all, I'm a married family man. That usually got me an apology. A few really smart ones just avoided me altogether.

If she accepted the compliment, I knew I had a chance. I never ever wasted time with someone that I didn't want to bed. If the compliment was successful, I simply followed with more as time permitted and just let things develop. Who knew where it would go? When she would speak with me about her frustrations with her husband (they always complained about their husband) I used that to my advantage. If they complained that he didn't do enough with the kids, I was dad of the year. If he didn't help out around the house, I did everything at home so my wife didn't have to. Yes, it was complete BS, but so what. My job was to make them feel special, pretty and needed and to paint the fantasy. After all, my goal was not conversation or friendship. I wanted to score.

Once things progressed and I had to keep it intense unless it was simply a once and done kind of thing. I would do that by pushing her boundaries for sex. Anal, public hook-up whatever. Keep in mind, I'm in it for the sex so I tried for everything I liked and heard more than once statements like... I never even let my husband do that. That was usually with anal, but sometimes public hook-ups also.

I certainly didn't want to be paying for hotel rooms out my pocket. If she wanted to pay, that was fine. Otherwise, we could hook-up anywhere, it didn't matter to me.

I always advised them to keep the secret between us, because it was so special. Actually, I didn't want to get busted. If they got busted, and some did. That was their tough crap to deal with. I certainly never vowed to love/honor/cherish them.

As I look back, I'm stunned at how easy it was and how many fell for my crap. I had some that would try to pull away and I'd feed them the star crossed lovers BS, you know... kept apart by the cruel hand of fate. That worked like magic to seal the deal. I also used things like I think my wife may have cheated on me. Then I'd work in how I got tested for STDs and it was clear and somehow manage to mention my vasectomy (never had one). Understand? I'm safe, you won't catch anything if you sleep with me and I won't get you pregnant. That was the message.

The one thing that sent me running was the fear of getting caught and sometimes I just wanted a quick bang and wasn't in it for a couple of months of an affair. I'm still also amazed by how many didn't see through my crap either. They didn't have to deal with the day to day stresses that adults face with me (finances, mortgages, car payments, child care, time commitments, etc.). With me, it was just fun and sex. The poor bastard at home didn't have a chance once the play was in motion. It also helped me to see him as a douche-bag when his wife whined about him for whatever reason.

I work with a woman that has lost everything over an affair with me. The house, husband, family, etc. It's difficult to see. She hates me now, but I never vowed anything to her or forced her to do anything. That's her tough crap. Her kids are in therapy, their grades tanked and she's struggling financially and the kids blame her, etc. Honestly, I wish she'd quit so I didn't have to see her every freaking day.


I do know a few like me that I consider even worse. They brag and laugh about getting wayward wives to do things and try to get email or text proof to show off. It's pretty easy, just tell her how much he liked doing X with her last night and let her respond. Then they had proof to brag about and trade notes. I didn't do that. I just wanted the sex and avoided the women they talked about. I liked to find the ones who would seem to be the last to ever do anything like this. Goes back to my 3 reasons.

I never flirted with a married woman unless I wanted in her pants. Plain and simple, you do have to hide it so they don't see it coming, but it's really that basic. Other players use different methods, but we all use what works and modify sometimes if we're not progressing to try a different angle. Not all women are the same, and sometimes deviations are required if she'll let you in her pants.

It was never about love, just sex. I sold the fantasy, yes. But that is all it ever was. A fair trade. They were adults and quite frankly should have known better. Am I a predator, I certainly never thought so and I certainly never thought about what would happen to them when we were done. Yes, all my affairs ended. Most stayed married to their H they *****ed about and screwed around on. Therefore, he must not have been that bad. People just get caught up with unrealistic expectations on life I think. For goodness sake, Prince charming is only charming because he wants a blow job.

Before I close, I'll say this as well. An engaged woman would have worked for me also, but I never found one that would go for me. Also, newly married women are much harder to get. I had the best luck with women who had been married for at least several years, throw a kid or two in the mix and they were usually more susceptible to being chased.

It was a fair trade. Attention and compliments for sex.
findingmyway is offline Forward Message 
*


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

turnera said:


> The question is, at what POINT do you make that decision? Do you want to wait til you have a smoking gun? Do you want to just say stop or I leave? This is all what you have to decide. You CAN just walk away right now and say I don't deserve this.


Agreed.

OP, whether to wait for that smoking gun is a personal choice. For me, I'd want to know. I'd want to have the evidence if there was a reasonable chance of getting it. In your case, I think there is.

Turnera is right though. No once could blame you if you didn't wait.


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## Panther66 (Sep 30, 2014)

GusPolinski said:


> _*Panther, read this...*_
> 
> Wondershare Dr. Fone
> 
> ...


Will it work if she has a password on her phone? I thought I either needed the password or her icloud password, of which I don't have either. I do have access to the email so that wouldn't be a problem if a email was sent.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Chaparral said:


> The reason for waiting is to see how deep this is. I would want to know if it was a pa. Also, you need tools set up to see if it goes underground after a major hard confrontation and ultimatum. Cheaters lie and are good at it.
> 
> *Putting a var in her car, getting the wondershare program, should give you everything in a very few days, not weeks.* Time is not on your side. A real confontation needs to be soon but with the proper strategy in place. Jumping the gun is worse than no confrontationat all.
> 
> Have you found th


Chap is right. The VAR will most likely tell you if she is talking the OM, what frequency, which friends know what she is up to, how far the affair has gone, etc.


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