# I enjoy my "old fashioned" marriage, why don't other women?



## Happy Housewife7 (Aug 20, 2013)

Hello all!
This is my first post so bear with me if I ramble. I guess I was inspired to do this first discussion because of an incident I saw this weekend. A little background information, I'm 25 and I've been married to my wonderful husband for almost 7 years. My husband truly is my best friend and I'm happy to see him every single day. I guess you can say we are in a "old fashioned" relationship as far as gender roles go. I stay home and do all the cooking and cleaning, and the majority of the child care (unless I'm hurt or sick then he tries to take my place lol). My husband works a long 8-9 hour day in a factory and handles our finances, bills, and all the handy work around the house. And we're not overly religious, so that has nothing to do with our views on gender roles. 

I very much enjoy having a role in our marriage and I believe we have a strong one because of it. My husband rushes home to see me everyday, rarely ever wants to go out without me and our daughter, and even takes a few vacation days off a year just to stay home with me all day. There is no fighting about who is going to do what, because we're not both so tired from going to work. My husband opens doors for me, handles all the heavy "man work" and treats me like a lady. In return I respect him and try hard to make him feel like a leader and a man. My question is why don't other wives try to do the same? My husband works with a lot of married men at his factory and he is always telling me how they just hate their marriages. They're shocked to even hear that my husband gets home cooked meals every night. Their wives work long hours and by the time they do see each other they're exhausted and want almost nothing to do with them. 

Maybe it's just me but I think having gender roles in a marriage is very helpful. I've heard the excuse that women need to work outside the home because they need to help pay the bills. Well my husband only makes about 25k a year and we make it work with no government assistance or help from family members, we just don't splurge on things we don't need. Or that women want to feel independent, but I feel if you want to be independent you shouldn't get married in the first place, it's a partnership not a selfish thing. 

Earlier I mentioned the incident that I overheard this weekend, at a salon I went to. A husband and wife were taking their children to get their haircut for school and the husband misheard the name of the stylist. And when he said the wrong name, in front of everyone in the waiting area his wife said "God you're such a retard, you always have to embarrass me" The tone of her voice was serious and she looked like she could of just slapped him. He just replied with "Oh okay yea I'm sorry" to her. I just couldn't believe that she would even speak to her husband that way, and in front of strangers. I could only imagine the things she says to him behind closed doors. I see more and more wives that disrespect their husbands like this everyday. I'm just wondering if maybe they have gotten a little too independent and feel they can treat their husbands like crap.

I don't usually tell people this stuff because I get the "oh you're a doormat to your husband", But that's not the case at all. I actually enjoy my job as a wife and mom. I know some cases men are pigs and don't deserve this kind of treatment (if my husband treated me like anything less than a lady I wouldn't even be married to him). But I always see good husbands being treated terribly and just thought I could vent about this. I'm just wondering if more marriages would stay together if maybe we went back to a more traditional marriage when it comes to husbands and wives. I know that I've been married almost 7 years and I'm only 25 and have had no problems with mine, when people 10-15 years older than me who have been married for less and are on their first or second divorce. Just would love to hear other peoples view on this.


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## Running Mom (Aug 13, 2013)

I think you answered your own question: you enjoy being a wife and mother. It's all about both people in a relationship liking their role. If you like being a stay-at-home-mom and it makes you happy, then that's all there is to it. If your husband appreciates everything you do, then that's great. 

I'm a little surprised that you said if you want to be independent, then don't get married. You can have both independence and a good partnership. Independence doesn't equate to selfishness. And being in a partnership doesn't mean that your individual needs are never a consideration. I would not want to be in a marriage where everything I do is somehow an extension of my role as a wife or mother (and I'm not saying that is what you are doing because it's not entirely clear from your OP). I like to run, a lot, like for hours on a Sunday morning. It's something I would do whether I had a family or not. My family knows this and supports me and they can get up on the weekend and make their own bacon and eggs. That, to me, is independence, and it works well for us. I think my family knows that if I didn't run, I'd be . . . well, I'd probably be that b***h in the salon (who is clearly unhappy). Speaking of her, she's probably always been a b***h and it has nothing to do with her marriage. I agree that partners need to respect each other no matter what their roles are in the marriage.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

I enjoy my not so old fashioned relationship likely as much as you enjoy your old fashioned one.I don't feel the need to create a thread lecturing those who are different while presenting my relationship as better.If you want to be independent,don't get married? Open your mind a bit and realize people aren't cookie cutter.They aren't going to be made happy by the same things.

Marriages don't end bc the wife isn't a stay at home parent and they don't end bc the couple makes more than 25k.They don't end just bc people own more material things.They don't end just bc women don't let their husband's lead.
Marriages fail bc people don't know how to communicate and are too stubborn and prideful.Marriages fail because people don't know how to compromise and make the effort to stay in love.Marriages fail bc people make impulsive and bad choices.


It's great that you and your husband have found something that works for you.That doesn't mean it's the best way or that it will work for all.Your lifestyle and relationship have nothing that I envy.

ETA: Since we're comparing here,I have a full time job.I cook dinner,pack lunches for my partner every day,we have great sex at least once a day,and spend most of our after work and weekend time together.I also have a pre-teen and 2 big dogs. In addition to that,I foster and regularly volunteer. Time management is the key to having a fulfilling lifestyle. 
Would my life make everyone happy? Nope.I don't expect anyone to be impressed or made happy by my lifestyle except my partner and me. 

I do agree with downsizing lifestyles to make things less stressful which in turn makes everyone breathe a bit deeper and laugh a bit easier.


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## committed4ever (Nov 13, 2012)

*Re: I enjoy my "old fashioned" marriage, why don't other women?vc*

I feel somewhat like you but not entire. I'm 28. Can't recall whether you address this in your post but I also feel like the H should be the leader of the family. Wives should nurture and give life to you home make the dwelling a home and not just a place where you stay. Wives should respect their H and men should love and cherish their wife. They should both be respectful of each other roles. 

One other thing that you didn't address is both should make sure the bedroom is SMOKING HOT!


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

I agree with your lifestyle. It's much more organized. Your husband fulfills his responsibilities and you fulfill yours. You make sure that your husband comes to a comfortable home and he makes sure you have money to pay bills. It works that you two don't mind a simple life. I have seen some cases which the wife doesn't work so the husband complains that they can't live a better life. When we are content with a simple lifestyle, things become easy for us. 

Some women are disrespectful to their husbands, and that's a shame. But we don't know what the husbands had done so the wives don't respect them. Some husbands don't respect their wives either, they treat their wives poorly. In a good marriage, the husband and the wife respect and love each other. 

Having home cooked meals is a privilege now. Now more people choose to work and make money so they have more material things. Is it a better lifestyle? Personally I don't think so. But this society is all about money and showy stuff, some people feel bad or inferior if they don't have all the material stuff, so they feel the need to work and make money. When people are comparing themselves to others, it's difficult for them to be content. I think it is important for kids and husbands to come home with moms and wives waiting for them, food prepared, house cleaned and organized. It's a much warmer feeling.


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## trey69 (Dec 29, 2010)

To the OP, what works for some may not work for others. I think in your case this is what works for you and your husband. Plus you both seem to be on the same page about things and you both seem to have a mutual respect for one another, with how things should go and how you treat one another etc. 

In some marriages thats not how it goes or works out. One might want one lifestyle where the other wants something different, sometimes there a compromise, sometimes there is a conflict. Also people who are independent doesn't mean they shouldn't get married. There are many people married who are independent, its part of what makes a person an individual.


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## LoriC (Feb 18, 2013)

"Or that women want to feel independent, but I feel if you want to be independent you shouldn't get married in the first place, it's a partnership not a selfish thing."

You really said that didnt you? Seriously? Wow, I have no words.


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## LonelyinLove (Jul 11, 2013)

We both have careers. We both cook. We both parent. Neither one of us are doormats, we are partners. Always equal, yet not the same.


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## CallaLily (Jan 13, 2011)

Happy Housewife7 said:


> Or that women want to feel independent, but I feel if you want to be independent you shouldn't get married in the first place, it's a partnership not a selfish thing.


And some might say its selfish to not be independent. 

To the OP, do you feel you are not independent any area of your marriage? Or are you completely dependent on him? Do you have any sense of self or individuality at all, apart from him? A marriage can still be a partnership, and yet they can still be individuals.


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## Gems (Aug 14, 2013)

I would love to be a stay at home wife and mom. I work because my job offers cheap, kick ass health insurance. I sleep better at night knowing that if something were to happen to either my husband or I or either of the kids, we wouldn't be out on the street due to medical bills. 
So my paycheck pays for health insurance and daycare, and a few hundred dollars leftover pays for ... well, not extras or showy things, that's for sure! My husband's cell phone, that is required by his job (that pays him a $5/month "stipend" to have it), well, that's about a hundred bucks. My student loan payment is another hundred (almost paid off). And our car insurance runs about a hundred. Then my husband's paycheck covers the mortgage, the car payment, the utilities, the groceries, and gas. 
We don't go out to eat. My husband works shifts and is not home for a home cooked meal, though I would make one if he were. There's leftovers in the fridge but he doesn't care for leftovers much.
What I'm trying to say is, not everyone works because they are eating out all the time and running around in designer clothes and buying new furniture and big screen tvs. 
I would love to stay at home, but I love the safe and secure feeling that having that health insurance for my family gives me.
My husband and I support each other and love each other and I think that plus communication is part of every happy marriage.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

What would you do if your husband got injured at work? What would you do if he had some sort of mental breakdown? Before you start spouting off that women ought to be more like you, to let their husbands handle everything except housework and childcare, perhaps you ought to educate yourself on what is actually happening in the "non-old fashioned" marriages. Perhaps you ought to not make judgements on other people's marriages based solely on ONE incident you witnessed.


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## Giro flee (Mar 12, 2013)

Why doesn't every woman in the entire world want the same thing? Seems like an odd question. I don't believe every man in the world wants to be a carpenter. Some want to be lawyers, engineers, race car drivers etc. Why would women be any different? I was the breadwinner the first five years of marriage, now a sahm, but when the children leave I will go back to work. I have enjoyed all roles in my life. People who get to do a job they love are lucky, seems like you are one of those people.


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## jeyna (Aug 15, 2013)

A good friend of my family had a marriage like this, where her husband worked and handled all the finances and she was a homemaker. Well, when he died he left her in thousands of dollars in debt that she had no idea about since he "handled" the finances, and being in her 50's had no skills to get a decent job and had no idea how to do anything for herself other than cleaning and cooking.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

It's incredibly naive to think every woman wants what you have.

I also think you are naive in this day and age to put your financial future in your husband's hands. What happens if he can't work or dies?


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Incidentally, I have been a SAHM (and housewife before kids) our entire marriage. I deal with the bills. I deal with the cooking. I do most of the cleaning, except what I delegate to the kids as chores. I do the grocery shopping. And it's a good thing I WAS in charge of paying the bills and knew what was going on with our finances because my husband DID have a breakdown. He was working as an auto tech, a job he LOVED. He worked 8 hours each day, 1 hour drive each direction. When he had his breakdown, he was unable to function well. I HAD to handle the finances. But, since I was already doing that anyway, it didn't matter that I "had to"...

My only point is that, even in "old fashioned" marriages, both spouses need to be able to step into EITHER role, should the unthinkable happen. My husband is capable of doing most things, now, but I, primarily, am "in charge"... and have been for 5 years (since he had his breakdown). I don't see that changing in the forseeable future, but I keep him involved all the way.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

This is what works for you. Thats great. Usually women who resent being SAHM's have husbands who do not treat them as equal partners. Who wouldnt resent that? Every couple's situation is unique, so you really cannot ask why this doesnt work for everybody.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Well I very much enjoy my career so why are you happy accomplishing nothing at home? You cook? Big stinking deal, I cook too. I don't mean any of that but it's the same tone you used. I'm glad you and your hb are happy and at the age of 25 you have all the answers, but come back in 15 or 20 years and revisit your attitude. What will you do if in 10 years hubby decides he married too young and wants out? What if he decides he still likes 25 year olds when you're 45? I know you think that'll never happen and I hope you're right but ths forum is full of people that never thought their spouse would leave or treat then like dirt and don't know the person they're married to anymore. I wonder if your hubby will be generous with his money in the event of divorce because you cooked and cleaned for him? If I had a buck for every time I heard "I'm miserable but I've been at home for 20 years and have no job prospects so I don't know what to do" I'd have a lot of bucks. .But none of this will ever happen to you I'm sure.
Even if your marriage stays great what will you do if he loses his job? Is it always going to be 100% his job to pay the bills? Financial hardships are a reality of life too. 
Everyone must make their own decisions regarding what works for and if as a couple you agree that one of you will stay home that's great. Please don't visit your preferences on everyone else.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kobo (May 13, 2010)

The focus of the answers in this thread don't really surprise me. I've been of the belief that the obsession with not being "controlled" by their husbands can be a constant obstacle for a lot of ladies.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

I think it's safe to say there are positives and negatives for just about every kind of lifestyle out there.


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## CallaLily (Jan 13, 2011)

You enjoy your "Old fashioned marriage" I assume that means you enjoy "Old fashioned" sex as well? Although I'm not sure exactly what that might mean. You talked about everything else in your marriage but that, so I assume that is great too?


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## NovembeRain (Jul 5, 2013)

To answer your question simply:

1. You WANT to be a SAHM, you LOVE cooking, cleaning etc - you fulfilled your purpose in life in the sense that you love what you do.
I DON'T want to be a SAHM, I want to be a succesful business woman and achieve something independently - NOT everybody wants what you want! And every woman should have a right to choose!


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Kobo said:


> The focus of the answers in this thread don't really surprise me. I've been of the belief that the obsession with not being "controlled" by their husbands can be a constant obstacle for a lot of ladies.



Seems to me based on the number of men I see around here that want their wife at home that a lot of men are obsessed with controlling their wives. See how I can use that logic too?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MambaZee (Aug 6, 2013)

I, too, knew a woman who let her husband handle all finances, shopping, life planning, etc. Now she did work outside of the home (they had no kids) but I used to wonder what would happen if he died suddenly? She didn't even write checks or balance a checkbook! There are some life skills that I believe EVERYONE should know. I have kids of both genders and before they leave home, I'll teach them how to sew on a button, cook a minimum of two meals, laundry, basic cleaning, ironing, etc. Just simple domestic tasks that boys and girls need to know. I don't want my sons thinking their wives are "supposed" to know how to do those things so they don't have to do it themselves. 

My sitch: I work from home and because I'm home and work fewer hours than my H, I cook and do the majority of cleaning. I like being here for my kids when they get home from school but everyone's situation doesn't work out like that. I'm LUCKY that I can do my work from home 'cause I know a lot of people can't. That works for us, but it's not going to work for everyone.


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## Wiltshireman (Jan 23, 2013)

OP,
I am happy to hear that you and your husband have found a system that works for your family. I think some posters may have misinterpreted your comments on independence, I read it to mean that you and your husband considered yourselves to be two equal halves of a partnership rather than two people who just happened to share a home.

I do think things were simpler when only one parent had to go out to work leaving the other free to run the house / look after the kids, IMHO the most important job any of us do is to raise and provide for our children so a SAH parent defiantly contributes their share.

It is not just that most people want more / nicer things (although that is the case with some) it is more that the cost of basics is higher now as a proportion of average earnings than in the past.

The actual £ numbers have been made meaningless by inflation but when my parents married (50+ years ago) they could afford to buy a three bed home 25 miles from the centre of London on a mortgage the monthly repayments on which were equal to 1 weeks’ pay for my father. The same home now (even if they would lend you enough) would need repayment equal to 2 weeks pay a month. This was why my wife and I moved out to Wiltshire.

For us as a family my wife has not worked full time since before the birth of our first child but she has worked part time (around my hours so to save on childcare costs) or from home to help balance the budget. I have been lucky enough that I have never been out of work but at times I have had to work away from home, do anti social hours or work two jobs just to pay the bills. Things are easier for us now as we have paid off a good proportion of the home lone but for those starting out it is very hard even with two good wages let alone one.

I have always maintained that my wife works as hard as me as even though she works from home she still does the majority of the housework / childcare and I know that without us both putting in the effort as a couple things would be much harder / less happy. (Do not get me wrong our life / relationship is far from perfect but we are working on both).

I do agree with the OP that the lack of respect that some couples show each other is alarming, as is the number / percentage of failed relationships. I am sure many could be saved if both parties were willing to make the effort. Then again I am (as my children tell me) a very old fashioned man.


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## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

It's brilliant you have such a great relationship but approx 3.5 billion women in the world it's pretty ignorant to think what works for you or makes you happy will make happy (or have the the same wants/personality) will/should be the same for the rest of a entire gender. People can only say what's the best way of life for themselves or their own marriage, not others.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Happy Housewife7 said:


> Hello all!
> This is my first post so bear with me if I ramble. I guess I was inspired to do this first discussion because of an incident I saw this weekend. A little background information, I'm 25 and I've been married to my wonderful husband for almost 7 years. My husband truly is my best friend and I'm happy to see him every single day. I guess you can say we are in a "old fashioned" relationship as far as gender roles go. I stay home and do all the cooking and cleaning, and the majority of the child care (unless I'm hurt or sick then he tries to take my place lol). My husband works a long 8-9 hour day in a factory and handles our finances, bills, and all the handy work around the house. And we're not overly religious, so that has nothing to do with our views on gender roles.
> 
> I very much enjoy having a role in our marriage and I believe we have a strong one because of it. My husband rushes home to see me everyday, rarely ever wants to go out without me and our daughter, and even takes a few vacation days off a year just to stay home with me all day. There is no fighting about who is going to do what, because we're not both so tired from going to work. My husband opens doors for me, handles all the heavy "man work" and treats me like a lady. In return I respect him and try hard to make him feel like a leader and a man. My question is why don't other wives try to do the same? My husband works with a lot of married men at his factory and he is always telling me how they just hate their marriages. They're shocked to even hear that my husband gets home cooked meals every night. Their wives work long hours and by the time they do see each other they're exhausted and want almost nothing to do with them.
> ...


:iagree:

Are you living in an Asian country? If yes, then your attitude is the norm, especially in the Southeast. 

But I am sure people from other countries has different cultures and norms.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

You are very young, OP, and you don't yet realize that you are reinventing the wheel with the things you are saying. You are happy, so you think that you represent a model for others.

This is fair enough. We all do it - until things get hard and we are confronted with challenges that we didn't expect. Life has a tendency to 'age' our view of our own situations and experience. We realize that there's a defined range of behavior, but a lot of variation and color within that range.

I'm a wife and mother and career woman. My own mother had five children, a loving husband, and a full-time career in a generation when that lifestyle almost didn't exist. We were happy. My kids are great and well-adjusted (so far - as I said, we never know, do we?). My H and I have always split household duties. Our roles are clearly defined, just not defined in the traditional sense that you describe.

It's great that you're happy in your role. I have to tell you, though, that I have met plenty of 'traditional' wives who would not think twice about treating their H's with the open disrespect that you witnessed in your anecdote. This is a basic matter of respect in a relationship, in my opinion, not a matter of roles.

In any case, I think it's smart to try to be open-minded and flexible as you get older, because things have a way of forcing us to adapt to the unexpected & it helps if we are not rigid in what we have set up for ourselves.


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## Wiltshireman (Jan 23, 2013)

Tiggyblue,

I agree that what works for one will not work for all but your numbers are way out.

World Population is just over 7 billion so that would make about 3.5 billion female, as some of those are too young to be in a relationship, some do not / will never have a relationship and some will be widows there are probably at most 2 billion women "in a relationship".

Pedantic of me I know but numbers out by a factor off over 3 do distort the message.


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## LoriC (Feb 18, 2013)

You literally went from Mommy and Daddy's house at the ripe old age of 18 right into your current role. You havent a clue about the real world or independance. Glad your happy, but like I always say with the religious freaks, be happy and keep it to yourself and stop trying to understand why other women dont want to be you. It doesnt make us successful independant woman any less of a woman than you are.

And for the record, I would rather jab forks in both my eyes than have ever been a SAHM. JMHO!!!!!!


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## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

Wiltshireman said:


> Tiggyblue,
> 
> I agree that what works for one will not work for all but your numbers are way out.
> 
> ...


lol sorry I typed in google female population in the world and typed in the world population instead of female population, will fix that now.


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

Mavash. said:


> It's incredibly naive to think every woman wants what you have.
> 
> I also think you are naive in this day and age to put your financial future in your husband's hands. *What happens if he can't work or dies?*


Even though I agree with her lifestyle, I think it is important for women to be independent financially. 

Life is always changing, lots of unpredictable things can happen. We shouldn't be too paranoid about our future, but it's important for us to be prepared for bad fortune in case it happens. 

Lots of bad things might happen. Accident, disease, infidelity, etc. When these things happen, you lose the security you have. What are you going to do if you don't have a skill? It's important for us to have a skill. 

It's not a nice feeling to imagine losing your loving spouse, but if you are independent financially, it's easier for you to face the tough challenge. 

My view about marriage is traditional, but my marriage is not traditional. We are married but we decide not to have kids. We both work, but we also share house chores. I cook meals four or five days a week. Sometimes I am lazy so I don't want to cook. I enjoy working, and I think my salary does provide us a better lifestyle, at least less stress for my husband. We don't need to worry about money. If he loses his job, the sky won't crash.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Kobo said:


> The focus of the answers in this thread don't really surprise me. I've been of the belief that the obsession with not being "controlled" by their husbands can be a constant obstacle for a lot of ladies.


I've been a homemaker for 10 years. My beliefs have nothing to do with being controlled it has to do with being prepared.

Got a friend now who married young, no career, no education, no savings and he cheated on her in year 10. She's got 3 kids, a minimum wage job and struggles to keep the utilities turned on.

She's 33.


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## LonelyinLove (Jul 11, 2013)

Mavash. said:


> I've been a homemaker for 10 years. My beliefs have nothing to do with being controlled it has to do with being prepared.
> 
> Got a friend now who married young, no career, no education, no savings and he cheated on her in year 10. She's got 3 kids, a minimum wage job and struggles to keep the utilities turned on.
> 
> She's 33.


:iagree:

No kidding.

My daughter married a "good Christian" guy. Despite the college education we paid for, she turned into Suzy Homemaker, assuming her good man would always work and pay the bills.

And he did. Until he meet some skank on Facebook, kicked my daughter and the kids out of their home, and paid nothing.

The court awarded her child support but then he got kicked out of the military....no job, no child support.

Don't ever say never....people change, aren't who you think they are, and/or bad things happen. Don't assume and be prepared.


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

Mavash. said:


> I've been a homemaker for 10 years. My beliefs have nothing to do with being controlled it has to do with being prepared.
> 
> Got a friend now who married young, no career, no education, no savings and he cheated on her in year 10. She's got 3 kids, a minimum wage job and struggles to keep the utilities turned on.
> 
> She's 33.


Sometimes I read in CWI, a lot of husbands are sad when their wives cheat. But I feel that the men are more in control, because most of them work and make money. They are hurt by their wives, but their life won't crash down. But if I read a wife's story, it usually makes me sadder, because I feel she is more helpless, especially if she doesn't work. Sometimes some wives have to endure their husbands' infidelity because they are dependent on their husbands financially. If she had a job, she could just walk away.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Me & my husband have always shared an "older fashioned" mindset in relation to living, marriage, the simple things in life .... I also love wearing dresses, making home made pies, being barefoot & those years of pregnancies. 

He's always preferred me to stay home with the kids..feeling his primary role was to Provide for his family... Though I've always had some side jobs ..... I just don't count these as it is peanut money...so I call myself a SAH wife and Mom... I adore this role...and feel very blessed to have a man who appreciates what I bring.. valuing it... 

I wouldn't call myself independent, I can not boast here, but our marriage is surely "INTERdependent"... I am not a burden to my husband...but his helpmate...we work as a team to benefit each other & all children in all ways... as it harmoniously should be - whether 2 parents work trying to make ends meat / have careers & richer lifestyles or this way of living...

My biggest issue is feeling Judged by others who feel this is nothing but a RISK in today's society....feeling a woman is foolish to depend on her husband, he may cheat or leave me...or die... I am only worried about death, or disability... I know what I married..one's character is everything. We've always been very careful with our money which has afforded us to be where we are today... 



jeyna said:


> A good friend of my family had a marriage like this, where her husband worked and handled all the finances and she was a homemaker. Well, when he died he left her in thousands of dollars in debt that she had no idea about since he "handled" the finances, and being in her 50's had no skills to get a decent job and had no idea how to do anything for herself other than cleaning and cooking.


In our marriage, I have always handled all the finances... every bill, decide what CD's to put our money in... he probably hasn't written a check in 10 +yrs.., he says he'd be up the creek without me.... We have Life Insurance on us both... are debt free (house, property , all vehicles).. and have more saved than he makes in a year's time...

If I had to, in the event of his death...I would be able to go to college with a small portion of the Life Insurance money...but really.. being debt free...even with a mundane job, I think we'd be Ok...

My biggest concern has always been Health insurance...That is something that can go  ...taking all you have worked for in a life time in the event of cancer/ Unforeseen health issues. Could happen to any of us.. no matter how much one makes.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Continuing on my homemaker story.

I'm an accomplished CPA and can support me/kids comfortably.

I have adequate life insurance on my husband.

He funds an IRA in my name.

We have 6 months worth of living expenses saved up that I have access to.

We live modestly so I could support myself if I had to.

We have no debt and are frugal.

If he left me tomorrow I'd be fine.


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## Coffee Amore (Dec 15, 2011)

My mother, aunts, grandmothers all worked outside the home in various careers AND also kept a home. They didn't have some magical fairy that took care of the cleaning, cooking, laundry, grocery shopping. Women who work outside the home do all that you do as a SAHM, plus work a full-time job away from the home. I saw how happy and fulfilled they were. I wanted the same thing. I've never wanted to be a SAHM. I've done it very early on when I was a mother, but it wasn't for me. I feel much happier and a better mother/wife when I get a chance to do something intellectually fulfilling at a career. 

I used to work for the Legal Aid Society a long time ago, in college, at a part-time job. Some of the saddest divorce cases I've worked on there were women who had been SAHM all their lives. They thought their husbands would take care of them financially if they in turn took care of the home. Come to find out the husband wants a divorce for whatever reasons (cheating..midlife crisis..) and now the poor woman is stuck with children to raise plus the prospect of entering the job market with no real marketable skills, not unless she's looking into working in child care or being a carer in some way. The kinds of jobs you get that way are minimum wage jobs and the hours aren't good either. For me, it solidified the idea I need to have a way to support myself because let's face it, life happens, even in the happiest of marriages things can go wrong and you need to have a plan for how you'll go on should the unthinkable happen. 
I love my husband and hope never to be divorced from him, but if God forbid I had to, I could survive on my income.

Most of the women I know work outside the home. Historically, this is not unusual though. Women have worked in various jobs on a family farm or family business or outside the home as cooks, wet nurses, seamstresses, governesses, teachers, not just in the modern era.


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Me & my husband have always shared an "older fashioned" mindset in relation to living, marriage, the simple things in life .... I also love wearing dresses, making home made pies, being barefoot & those years of pregnancies.
> 
> He's always preferred me to stay home with the kids..feeling his primary role was to Provide for his family... Though I've always had some side jobs ..... I just don't count these as it is peanut money...so I call myself a SAH wife and Mom... I adore this role...and feel very blessed to have a man who appreciates what I bring.. valuing it...
> 
> ...


It is everybody's concern. It is scary when we think too much about it. 

I choose not to think too much about it. There is nothing we can do about our unforeseen future. Live happily day by day. 

Your life is good, so there is no need to be bothered by others. Who cares what other people think and say, as long as your life is good!


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

Coffee Amore said:


> My mother, aunts, grandmothers all worked outside the home in various careers AND also kept a home. They didn't have some magical fairy that took care of the cleaning, cooking, laundry, grocery shopping. Women who work outside the home do all that you do as a SAHM, plus work a full-time job away from the home. I saw how happy and fulfilled they were. I wanted the same thing. I've never wanted to be a SAHM. * I've done it very early on when I was a mother, but it wasn't for me. I feel much happier and a better mother/wife when I get a chance to do something intellectually fulfilling at a career.
> *
> I used to work for the Legal Aid Society a long time ago, in college, at a part-time job. Some of the saddest divorce cases I've worked on there were women who had been SAHM all their lives. They thought their husbands would take care of them financially if they in turn took care of the home. Come to find out the husband wants a divorce for whatever reasons (cheating..midlife crisis..) and now the poor woman is stuck with children to raise plus the prospect of entering the job market with no real marketable skills, not unless she's looking into working in child care or being a carer in some way. The kinds of jobs you get that way are minimum wage jobs and the hours aren't good either. For me, it solidified the idea I need to have a way to support myself because let's face it, life happens, even in the happiest of marriages things can go wrong and you need to have a plan for how you'll go on should the unthinkable happen.
> *I love my husband and hope never to be divorced from him, but if God forbid I had to, I could survive on my income.
> ...


I had been a STHM for a couple of years. I didn't like it. I have worked for more than ten years since my son started going to school. I enjoy working, and I am much happier. I am also more confident and dignified. 

I want to spend the rest of my life with my loving husband together, and hope our happy life lasts forever, but if bad things happen, I won't be helpless. Having a job and a skill helps me be more confident.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Me & my husband have always shared an "older fashioned" mindset in relation to living, marriage, the simple things in life .... I also love wearing dresses, making home made pies, being barefoot & those years of pregnancies.
> 
> He's always preferred me to stay home with the kids..feeling his primary role was to Provide for his family... Though I've always had some side jobs ..... I just don't count these as it is peanut money...so I call myself a SAH wife and Mom... I adore this role...and feel very blessed to have a man who appreciates what I bring.. valuing it...
> 
> ...



If i had a buck for every post I've seen regarding cheating or walk away husbands where the wife swore up and down that he always had the most upstanding character and this is so unlike him, I'd have a lot of bucks. I'm genuinely happy that your marriage has worked out well but it would behoove you to think about a little more than death and disability. Because you never know....imho.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

I grew up in a time where all married women were SAHM's. I kid you not when I say that the most-cited choices among little girls for 'what they wanted to be when they grew up' were 'princess' and 'bride.'

My mother was quite literally the only career woman I knew. The only one, for years. Not a solitary married mom in the community, among my friends' parents, among my classmates, had a career. And many of them were completely miserable. The Rolling Stones didn't write 'Mother's Little Helper' for nothing. These women felt they had no choice whatsoever in life. Their roles were clearly defined - often only by other people. If you are fortunate enough in life to have choices, you want to take advantage of that good fortune.

So, it may be that OP's H is thrilled that his lunch pail has a thermos filled with homemade hot soup while his sad sack co-workers make do with Lunchables, but you never know. This life isn't for everyone. I saw that firsthand.


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## mablenc (Feb 26, 2013)

Happy Housewife7 said:


> Hello all!
> This is my first post so bear with me if I ramble. I guess I was inspired to do this first discussion because of an incident I saw this weekend. A little background information, I'm 25 and I've been married to my wonderful husband for almost 7 years.
> 
> *So you have been married your whole adult life, just pointing this out, not all of us have.*
> ...


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## mablenc (Feb 26, 2013)

greenpearl said:


> I had been a STHM for a couple of years. I didn't like it. I have worked for more than ten years since my son started going to school. I enjoy working, and I am much happier. I am also more confident and dignified.
> 
> I want to spend the rest of my life with my loving husband together, and hope our happy life lasts forever, but if bad things happen, I won't be helpless. Having a job and a skill helps me be more confident.


I got laid off, Its killing me... while I am enjoying a few things I miss my job.


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## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> Their roles were clearly defined - often only by other people.


:iagree:

For some that will be their nature, for others it won't.
As long as you define for yourself what you are as a woman/man all is good (it doesn't matter how many books/survey's/explanations on why as a woman/man by nature you have these traits/wants/needs/role if it doesn't feel right for you it's not right for you, others can't dictate another what is natrual for other individuals). It's sad that many people didn't live the life they wanted (whatever way) because of others opinions of what is/should be natrual for them.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

greenpearl said:


> *It is everybody's concern. It is scary when we think too much about it.
> 
> I choose not to think too much about it. There is nothing we can do about our unforeseen future. Live happily day by day*.
> 
> Your life is good, so there is no need to be bothered by others. Who cares what other people think and say, as long as your life is good!


 Greenpearl 

I used to be more of a "worrier" about the future...in our earlier years.. I had to have a *large stash* saved for MANY rainy days, torrential downpours even (but started yrs before we married).....what if we needed a new roof, another car, a new well, didn't want to miss the house of our dreams -the plan was to put a whopping amount down when we found our dream house....(which we did).

I TRY to be well prepared...I wouldn't at all like finding myself destitute....as I know our lives are but a vapor..we could all be killed in a car accident tomorrow... We can't stop it...living is a risk in itself. 

I feel we've done all we can possibly do - considering our lifestyle....to assure - I would be OK if / in the event he died...with Life Insurance, our assets, and if push came to shove...I know some good people who could help me get into a decent JOB... to get me started. So this helps.


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## mablenc (Feb 26, 2013)

greenpearl said:


> Even though I agree with her lifestyle, I think it is important for women to be independent financially.
> 
> Life is always changing, lots of unpredictable things can happen. We shouldn't be too paranoid about our future, but it's important for us to be prepared for bad fortune in case it happens.
> 
> ...


I agree, people who choose to stay at home, Should consider to have trade, a degree, or something to fall back on if they ever need to work.


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## Vorlon (Sep 13, 2012)

Op, 

I love your attitude. Others may not. We have been married 27+ years w/4 kids and my wife stayed home. It is not always easy and there may come a time when you feel lonely or that your role no longer is meaningful. It will mean you'll have to adapt to the new norm but that doesn't have mean going out to work. 

My wife loved being a SAHM. Even though she has stated through the years that she never gets awards for a good job, no bonus for a great year and few people to talk to through out a day. She doesn't have happy hour after work, overtime or travel. She isn't stressed out from her boss over deadlines or the latest layoff rumors. Trade offs I think. 

She does have to depend on me for our financial health. She does make sure I take care of myself and in return we take care of each other. I can tell you that if she worked full time i don't think we would have made it this far. We have had good times and bad. That's life. 

My wife has commented on many of the things you did in your original post. It is everyone's personal choice how they live there life. Some choices are harder than others and some people thrive while others die a little every day. For us it has worked. 

We, like you, love to see and spend time together. She is my life partner. We actually have trouble fitting anybody else into our little world. We are that couple that is always holding hands even in church. When we look at each other we smile. We have been asked if we want separate checks at a restaurant because they thought we were dating or having an affair. I couldn't be in any other type of relationship. 

We look at other couples that are out in the evening and all they do is watch the TV or play on their phones. They hardly talk to each other. Its sad to see actually. 

I won't say this is caused by any one thing but you have to wonder at the breakdown in relationships. Is there a common cause? Are they simply too tired or stressed to enjoy each others company? 

So enjoy your life. I think it is a personal choice thing.... 

Enjoy what you have but try to stay flexible and adaptable because life doesn't always go as planned.


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## LonelyinLove (Jul 11, 2013)

alte Dame said:


> So, it may be that OP's H is thrilled that his lunch pail has a thermos filled with homemade hot soup while his sad sack co-workers make do with Lunchables, but you never know. This life isn't for everyone. I saw that firsthand.


I seriously doubt the sad-sacks are miserable because of what is, or is not, in their lunch thermos.

And I would bet their wives are equally miserable and whining.

Ask another sad-sack husband and he might be upset his lazy wife won't work and help pay the bills.

What works in a marriage is what the 2 parties in the marriage agree to....not what the mother-in-law says, not what Grandma and grandpa did, not what the church ladies demand...what works great for one couple may not work so well for another.


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## Kobo (May 13, 2010)

lifeistooshort said:


> Seems to me based on the number of men I see around here that want their wife at home that a lot of men are obsessed with controlling their wives. See how I can use that logic too?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The funny part is you don't see how you support my opinion. You see a man wanting his wife to be a SAHM as "controlling". In my world there is no correlation there. But in your world and the world of the "likers" of your post being a SAHM is a recipe for being controlled by your husband. Combine that with what you posted really isn't what I was getting at. I'm talking about the initial focus on the word independence used by the OP. Has nothing to do with whether you or I believe that a women should stay home or not.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

I went to college at 18 instead of getting married. And then I wanted a job so I could support myself. And then I wanted to go to grad school to get an ever better job. I liked learning new skills and developing interesting relationships with the smart people I work with. I liked traveling to different cities and experiencing different foods and lifestyles. I liked having the opportunity to move to a new city that I loved in a place that attracted people from all over the world.

I do like having a nice home, no money worries, and lots of savings and 401(k) so I can retire comfortably without worrying about how I will feed myself or pay for health care. I like not having to worry about bills or if I can afford to get my car repaired or how to pay for a new roof. I like knowing that I can help my parents in their old age should the need arise. I like not having to worry about emergencies.

If I had kids, I'd want to send them to a good college and I'd want to have the money to do so rather than limiting them to what they can afford through work-study.

I'm not really interested in housework and cooking, certainly not enough to devote all my time to it and turn it into an art. To me, those are just life necessities that take my time away from what I'd rather be doing and bring me no fulfillment.

I like having a self-sufficient partner to share life's joys and troubles with. I like having an independent partner who derives pleasure from his sports and hobbies. I like that we can afford the kinds of vacations that refresh and relax and stimulate our minds our bodies all over the world. I love our sex life and our private jokes and our humor and kindness with each other. I like that paying for me to live my life is not all on his shoulders.

See how I'm different from you and yet am perfectly happy?

One size does not fit all.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

Kobo said:


> The funny part is you don't see how you support my opinion. You see a man wanting his wife to be a SAHM as "controlling". In my world there is no correlation there. But in your world and the world of the "likers" of your post being a SAHM is a recipe for being controlled by your husband. Combine that with what you posted really isn't what I was getting at. I'm talking about the initial focus on the word independence used by the OP. Has nothing to do with whether you or I believe that a women should stay home or not.


Can't speak for the others but it isn't about control to me.Women can do whatever they want if it works for them and their husbands.I think you can be independent in more ways than working outside the home or making money.Independence is found by doing things that fulfill you.
The issue is the generalization. Also, the superior vibe OP showed. "Why can't all women feel the way I do about this?" as though if we all did what she's doing the world would be peaceful,bright,and always perfect.


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## mablenc (Feb 26, 2013)

greenpearl said:


> It is everybody's concern. It is scary when we think too much about it.
> 
> *I choose not to think too much about it. There is nothing we can do about our unforeseen future*. Live happily day by day.
> 
> Your life is good, so there is no need to be bothered by others. Who cares what other people think and say, as long as your life is good!


Nothing wrong with being prepared for emergencies and things life throws at you.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

mablenc said:


> Nothing wrong with being prepared for emergencies and things life throws at you.


:iagree:

My SO's mom had a marriage like the OP's. It was the perfect lifestyle for her and her family, and they were happy for many years. But then, her husband developed pancreatic cancer in his 50's and died. She was lucky, lucky, lucky that her husband had prepared for the worst long before the cancer and she was financially taken care of as she'd never had a paying job.

Don't let fear prevent you from planning and arranging and taking care of matters. You can't live day by day and just hope that nothing bad ever happens.


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## scarletto (Aug 20, 2013)

I would love to have traditional roles like you! Not everyone wants the same things, but I tell you I'd love to be in your shoes right now. My husband wants ME to ALL the roles and him to do NOTHING.


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## badcompany (Aug 4, 2010)

To the OP, you are lucky you can live this life. Here where I live you either get a cheap apartment and then the W can be a SAHM, or you gotta cough up $250,000 for a house and then both of you have to work unless your SO is in the top 10% income bracket.
Cheaper homes can be found further out from town(and our jobs) but then you just end up trading time and gas for a cheaper house payment.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

OP,

A couple of things. First, your life sounds a lot like mine. Secondly, I am really glad you are happy, but I must say that you missed the whole point of the women's movement. You are free to choose and do whatever you want, be it a homemaker or working professional. It really bothers me that SAHMs and working mothers are so judgemental of one another at times. Its as though both sides feel they know whats best for _all_ women. 



Happy Housewife7 said:


> Earlier I mentioned the incident that I overheard this weekend, at a salon I went to. A husband and wife were taking their children to get their haircut for school and the husband misheard the name of the stylist. And when he said the wrong name, in front of everyone in the waiting area his wife said "God you're such a retard, you always have to embarrass me" The tone of her voice was serious and she looked like she could of just slapped him. He just replied with "Oh okay yea I'm sorry" to her. I just couldn't believe that she would even speak to her husband that way, and in front of strangers. I could only imagine the things she says to him behind closed doors. I see more and more wives that disrespect their husbands like this everyday.


This does happen, and I've seen this behavior from quite a few SAHMs that live very comfortable lives. Not just working moms. I hate to say it but I blame the men for this. They are the ones that tolerate that behavior.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Kobo said:


> The funny part is you don't see how you support my opinion. You see a man wanting his wife to be a SAHM as "controlling". In my world there is no correlation there. But in your world and the world of the "likers" of your post being a SAHM is a recipe for being controlled by your husband. Combine that with what you posted really isn't what I was getting at. I'm talking about the initial focus on the word independence used by the OP. Has nothing to do with whether you or I believe that a women should stay home or not.



Glad you're so familiar with my world, just suggests you didn't understand my post at all and simply used your narrow lens to interpret it. I don't think sahm= controlled at all, I was employing your logic that women who feel they should have the means to do for themselves must automatically be trying to keep their husbands from controlling them. Women work for a lot of reasons, but I don't know any that do for the sole purpose of not letting their hb's control them. There are a lot of factors outside of your control and everyone should have the means to take care of themselves; simply living in a world where nothing bad happens and prince charming takes care of you while you live is very risky. Then this OP had to justify her choices by putting down others. I was a sahm for some years myself, so please don't presume to know my world, but I've also lived long enough to know that life happens. Beyond that i could care less who stays at home and who doesn't.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CallaLily (Jan 13, 2011)

Wow 4 pages later and I hope the OP comes back and at least addresses some questions!


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

lifeistooshort said:


> If i had a buck for every post I've seen regarding cheating or walk away husbands where the wife swore up and down that he always had the most upstanding character and this is so unlike him, I'd have a lot of bucks. I'm genuinely happy that your marriage has worked out well but it would behoove you to think about a little more than death and disability. Because you never know....imho.


I realize HOW my words may come off, it sound braggish.. it's sounds so self assured..... you'd just have to know HIM...know US in real life...he's just not your typical guy.. I could insert many things to convince...but who am I... but what appears an overly confident cyberspace nobody.. 

I will give you this...had I married another ....being the typical of what it appears many men are made of today....Oh yeah....I hear you....I even will agree with you.. the risk would be shot up that BAR!....

My husband has never lied to me (only hid some porn back in the day-when I was too religious)..he is the most upstanding man I have ever known...the most unselfish by far...he would lay down his life for me & his children... I stand by what I said...only death & disability worry me...and those are horrible horrible things.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

CallaLily said:


> Wow 4 pages later and I hope the OP comes back and at least addresses some questions!


I will be shocked if the person isn't a one and done poster.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I realize HOW my words may come off, it sound braggish.. it's sounds so self assured..... you'd just have to know HIM...know US in real life...he's just not your typical guy.. I could insert many things to convince...but who am I... but what appears an overly confident cyberspace nobody..


I get this bc I live it with my SO.It's tough to explain to people for sure.


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## Kobo (May 13, 2010)

lifeistooshort said:


> Glad you're so familiar with my world, just suggests you didn't understand my post at all and simply used your narrow lens to interpret it. I don't think sahm= controlled at all, I was employing your logic that women who feel they should have the means to do for themselves must automatically be trying to keep their husbands from controlling them. Women work for a lot of reasons, but I don't know any that do for the sole purpose of not letting their hb's control them. There are a lot of factors outside of your control and everyone should have the means to take care of themselves; simply living in a world where nothing bad happens and prince charming takes care of you while you live is very risky. Then this OP had to justify her choices by putting down others. I was a sahm for some years myself, so please don't presume to know my world, but I've also lived long enough to know that life happens. Beyond that i could care less who stays at home and who doesn't.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You're still trying to place the focus on my comments on the SAHM/ Working woman argument. I don't give 2 craps about that argument/discussion. My wife works. I pushed her to work. Now she has to deal with the crap that goes along with working and I deal with far less of the relationship control games that were played when she was at home. That works for us. My comments are about what the early responders focused in on early in the thread. They immediately picked up on the comments regarding independence. There is a reason for that. It plays out time and time again on TAM.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Kobo said:


> You're still trying to place the focus on my comments on the SAHM/ Working woman argument. I don't give 2 craps about that argument/discussion. My wife works. I pushed her to work. Now she has to deal with the crap that goes along with working and I deal with far less of the relationship control games that were played when she was at home. That works for us. My comments are about what the early responders focused in on early in the thread. They immediately picked up on the comments regarding independence. There is a reason for that. It plays out time and time again on TAM.



I am not sure which comments you're referring to. I will say that there was a time where men did control their wives precisely because they knew their wives had no options, and at times I get the feeling that some men resent that this is no longer the case. Regardless, my only point is that everyone should have the means to take care of business and nobody should have a holier than thou attitude about their life choices. Unless you want to argue with that we have no argument.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

ScarletBegonias said:


> I get this bc I live it with my SO.It's tough to explain to people for sure.


We both know these type men are glossed over by the vast majority of women, they are not Alpha enough. 



> *lifeistooshort said*: I am not sure which comments you're referring to. *I will say that there was a time where men did control their wives precisely because they knew their wives had no options, and at times I get the feeling that some men resent that this is no longer the case*. Regardless, my only point is that everyone should have the means to take care of business and nobody should have a holier than thou attitude about their life choices. Unless you want to argue with that we have no argument.


 You didn't say ALL men here, but it sounds almost implied...surely we can all point to some wonderful examples of good husbands/ Fathers who supported their wives & children, and did it because they wanted to, felt it was a wonderful lifestyle...with not a hint of controlling .. 

My Father in Law was one of those, my Grandfather was a wonderful example also...I have seen many growing up..

In reality...just as many SAHM's can take advantage of their hard working husbands ....it can go both ways.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

ScarletBegonias said:


> I will be shocked if the person isn't a one and done poster.


Yep, just here to wind people up.


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## Coffee Amore (Dec 15, 2011)

norajane said:


> Yep, just here to wind people up.


I too think the original post is just too smug and self-satisfied to be written without an agenda. Most likely the title of the thread and its contents were purposely designed to get people worked up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

Coffee Amore said:


> I too think the original post is just too smug and self-satisfied to be written without an agenda. Most likely the title of the thread and its contents were purposely designed to get people worked up.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yep, probably a toll.


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

Women are the equals of men because they are humans, all of which are equals.

The feminist movement and politically correct aftermath inculcate the idea that women are not the equals of men if they are a home-maker.

It was feminists denigrating Stay at Home Moms, not men, and they were very successful in making women believe that they had to have the same level of education or salary of a man in order to be his equal.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

SimplyAmorous said:


> We both know these type men are glossed over by the vast majority of women, they are not Alpha enough.
> 
> You didn't say ALL men here, but it sounds almost implied...surely we can all point to some wonderful examples of good husbands/ Fathers who supported their wives & children, and did it because they wanted to, felt it was a wonderful lifestyle...with not a hint of controlling ..
> 
> ...



It was not implied, if i meant all men I would have said all men. Apologies if I touched a sore spot.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

A lot of times I think posts are phony, but the can still inspire good discussions.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

Wiserforit said:


> Women are the equals of men because they are humans, all of which are equals.
> 
> The feminist movement and politically correct aftermath inculcate the idea that women are not the equals of men if they are a home-maker.
> 
> It was feminists denigrating Stay at Home Moms, not men, and they were very successful in making women believe that they had to have the same level of education or salary of a man in order to be his equal.


Well.....I also run into more than my fair share of SAHMs that assume that working women are "selfish" for choosing a career over being a stay at home mom.

I've said this before on TAM, but the same thing happens when any "movement" accomplishes its goals. Once the key objectives are met the infighting starts.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

Happy Housewife7 said:


> I'm just wondering if more marriages would stay together if maybe we went back to a more traditional marriage when it comes to husbands and wives. I know that I've been married almost 7 years and *I'm only 25 *and have had no problems with mine, when people 10-15 years older than me who have been married for less and are on their first or second divorce. Just would love to hear other peoples view on this.


 You are young and you only have one child so far (apparently).

I don't think traditional marriage helps people stay together. I was a traditional SAHW and M for some 25 years or so. Birthed 8 living children.

My husband did not respect me nor value my contributions to his "kingdom". And for decades he had this horrible demeaning attitude about women's work being beneath him. He wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole. And he would freely criticize and nit pick about things he never helped with and feel entitled to put his feet up when he got home because he "works" and "you don't work". For example, I remember him complaining bitterly about simple meals like canned ham and string beans and mac and cheese- how lazy I was not to have a Thanksgiving feast ready for him every night 

Well, he got laid off and I worked (a low paid very physically demanding CNA job) and then the roles changed. I never got to put my feet up but he did start doing things around the house. By golly, he cooked for the first time ever and did the dishes for the first time ever. And microwave burritos and hot dogs served on paper plates became a regular staple. Mr "wants to eat gourmet" went very easy on the cooking when it was his responsibility. 

Our children picked up on his entitled dismissive attitude and did not appreciate my work either. I distinctly remember the 16 yo complaining about how I did nothing and they did all the chores. From then on, she took over the dishes and kitchen cleaning which I had always done myself because it was such a HUGE job with a family of 10. Suddenly it was the hardest job in the house and everyone should kiss her feet because she was bustin her butt so hard... :scratchhead:

The children were MUCH more respectful and considerate toward me when I got a job outside the home. 

I have 5 children who have reached Major (>18), 4 of them daughters. I want them all to be professionals. I don't want them to be SAHW/M. I feel they will be more respected and have better marriages if they are well respected and well compensated outside the home. And I hope their husbands are very involved fathers instead of leaving that all on the wife. The parenting duties should be shared equally IMO.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

butterscotch said:


> I don't even know any MEN who would want this marriage you're describing. They would dread having a "dependent" wife who expects them to make all of her decisions for her and do everything all of the time.
> 
> But I don't really associate with religious people, which I reckon is most of the people who ascribe to proscribed gender roles these days.
> 
> ...


I actually don't mind this type of marriage at all. My life is very similar to the one that the OP described. I like providing everything that my wife and kids would ever need or want. Also, I purposefully chose a woman that preferred to be a SAHM, and wanted to be taken care of. I honestly don't think a career driven woman and me could live under the same roof.

Did I discriminate in choosing a mate? Absolutely. But aren't we allowed to? I think the marriage of incompatible individuals is the biggest cause of divorce.


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## GTdad (Aug 15, 2011)

Blonde said:


> You are young and you only have one child so far (apparently).
> 
> I don't think traditional marriage helps people stay together. I was a traditional SAHW and M for some 25 years or so. Birthed 8 living children.
> 
> ...


Blonde, as you may recall we have eight kids also, and although we have our issues, I've never disrespected her as a SAHM, and would never put up with the kids disrespecting her (for any reason).

And for those arguing about "control", it was her choice to stay at home. Given my druthers, I might prefer a working spouse. Being responsible for nearly every dollar brought in can weigh a bit heavily at times, although I think the kids have generally benefitted by her being a SAHM.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

LonelyinLove said:


> I seriously doubt the sad-sacks are miserable because of what is, or is not, in their lunch thermos.
> 
> And I would bet their wives are equally miserable and whining.
> 
> ...


For what it's worth, the comment of mine that this responds to was meant ironically.


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## LonelyinLove (Jul 11, 2013)

ReformedHubby said:


> Well.....I also run into more than my fair share of SAHMs that assume that working women are "selfish" for choosing a career over being a stay at home mom.
> 
> I've said this before on TAM, but the same thing happens when any "movement" accomplishes its goals. Once the key objectives are met the infighting starts.


I've pretty much always been a "do what works for you" kinda girl...but...

My two youngest attend a private Christian school. The vast majority of moms are SAH.

I, and the other 2 or 3 non-SAHM (one's a lawyer, one's an accountant, and I don't know about the other one) are pretty much excluded from committee's, Mom's GNO's, and any else the "mom squad" decides to do. We hear comments all the time about "God's will" for mothers, etc., and it's directed at us.

Pretty funny too, because I've been to the homes of some of these self-righteous super moms....the houses were not just cluttered, they were dirty. My children go to school with at least a 5 course brown bag (we don't have food service) but Suzy Homemaker sends lunchables. My kids have clean and ironed uniforms, I have observed some of the SAHM kids come to school looking like they slept in their school clothes.

But I'm the sinner mom because I have a career....

Except.....

When they need funding for a pet project, then my paycheck is perfectly acceptable.


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## LonelyinLove (Jul 11, 2013)

alte Dame said:


> For what it's worth, the comment of mine that this responds to was meant ironically.


Oh, I know, I thought it was awesome :smthumbup:


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## life101 (Nov 18, 2012)

I respect people's choices in what kind of relationships they want to be in.

Old style or modern style, they are not the problem. Civilization progresses, gender roles change, people's perspectives change. There is nothing inherently bad with it. Change is the only certain thing in life. 

The problem is the concept of boundaries very poorly understood by many people. Parents sometimes do a very bad job in teaching kids how boundaries need to be maintained in inter-personal relationships.

The wife shouting at the husband in a salon is an example of having poor boundaries. She has no concept of the private and the public, and doesn't respect her husband. She also has poor communication skill.

I will not be surprised if she is already cheating on him. 

Crossing boundaries occur in the old style marriages as much as in modern style marriages.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

ReformedHubby said:


> Well.....I also run into more than my fair share of SAHMs that assume that working women are "selfish" for choosing a career over being a stay at home mom.


 I just want to make a comment on this...I don't feel this way.....I understand we are all different and some women would go *C R A Z Y* being stuck home all day...it's just not something they would enjoy.... we should all do what brings us happiness...if we can afford if financially...and our spouses genuinely support us. 

We always did things the hard way - to save money so we could live this lifestyle..some of our funnier stories was on projects we tackled together in the past.... 

I really enjoyed the years I had babies to take care of, it was very fulfilling..... but here I am , our youngest 6, and I feel if I don't do something with my life....I may be wasting my potential.... I know it doesn't matter to him... society lays this on me in the same way an overweight women feels she will never measure up to what men want. It's the same feeling. 

I know many feel we are uneducated, lazy and ...stupid...and lets add "too religious" to the mix now also. Many of my friends are christians and are Stay At Home Moms, I don't find them stuck up but very warm. 

I've always felt the Moms who work have it much harder than someone like myself though, I am not one to complain about my lot.. I am very thankful for it.


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## jane1213 (Aug 10, 2012)

What about gay marriages? . I would rather work and have a career , further my studies...etc than stay in the kitchen .


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

LonelyinLove said:


> I've pretty much always been a "do what works for you" kinda girl...but...
> 
> My two youngest attend a private Christian school. The vast majority of moms are SAH.
> 
> ...


Ain't that the truth. Or when they decide they want extra income and take up one of the many schemes geared toward sahm's (think pampered chef/jewelry parties/ etc) ; you get invited to all of those. But you don't have to BUY anything! The sahm clique on my street had a nice bachelorette party for one that got married, which I didn't get invited to, but managed to invite me to the shower where all the gifts were given. Having been on both sides I've found sahm's to be much more snooty and clannish then working moms, but on the flip side when I was a sahm people automatically talked to me like i was stupid. It seems everybody has a cross to bear....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## inquizitivemind (Jul 16, 2013)

Well I didn't read through all of the comments on this thread, but from what I did read it seems like some people are quite offended by her response. I don't think she meant to say that women can't work outside of the home, and if she did, then that is just messed up. 

I am a teacher. I work the typical five days a week. Sometimes I have work to do at home because I dont get finished while at school. I love my job and it is a part of my life that brings me great satisfaction. That said, I know that if we decided to have children and I wanted to focus more on them, I would do that in a heartbeat no problem. Again, it would be my choice to do so.

I think the circumstances that you are talking about are changing gender roles in a family. My husband and I are pretty old fashioned too in how we function as far as him being the primary bread winner and me being the caretaker. However, I am capable of taking care of myself if I had to. In these days, it is important for each person to be in a sense independent, but in the marriage, you work together to make sure both people are happy in their roles.

I see miserable stay at home mom's and I see miserable working moms. Happiness is more complex than just a role that you play. Its all of the roles you play together and the people you are with that make a whole life happy or distraught. 

I am glad you are happy, but don't think that happiness only comes in one box.


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## committed4ever (Nov 13, 2012)

CallaLily said:


> Wow 4 pages later and I hope the OP comes back and at least addresses some questions!


After a warm welcome like that I see no reason why she wouldn't want to come back! After all she is the ripe old age of 25. She lived long enough not to be turned away by a little vitriol and venom!


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

lifeistooshort said:


> Having been on both sides I've found sahm's to be much more snooty and clannish then working moms, but on the flip side when I was a sahm people automatically talked to me like i was stupid. It seems everybody has a cross to bear....


This has not been my experience in the real world... I attended a Mops group (Mothers of Pre-schoolers - now over) for 14 yrs .. with working moms and non working Moms.. met many women in this time frame..... I honestly never felt "the clique mentality" with these women...in regards to working or not....they always treated me good, and I had friendships with both... ..everyone was invited to parties... 

I've felt "the division" more in the tone of posters here every time a thread like this hits..than I've ever felt in my existence.. sorry to say.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

committed4ever said:


> After a warm welcome like that I see no reason why she wouldn't want to come back! After all she is the ripe old age of 25. She lived long enough not to be turned away by a little vitriol and venom!


If she doesn't come back, I doubt that would be the reason she wouldn't.


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## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

IMO this was quite a provoking thread, I'm not surprised at all by the responses.


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## Coffee Amore (Dec 15, 2011)

SimplyAmorous said:


> This has not been my experience in the real world... I attended a Mops group (Mothers of Pre-schoolers - now over) for 14 yrs .. with working moms and non working Moms.. met many women in this time frame..... I honestly never felt "the clique mentality" with these women...in regards to working or not....they always treated me good, and I had friendships with both... ..everyone was invited to parties...
> 
> I've felt "the division" more in the tone of posters here every time a thread like this hits..than I've ever felt in my existence.. sorry to say.


I think it depends on where you live, SA. In some parts of the country, especially in the suburbs of larger cities where women stay home because they're financially well off, you encounter more the attitude than you may in a more rural area.


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## committed4ever (Nov 13, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> If she doesn't come back, I doubt that would be the reason she wouldn't.


If she was a troll (and I'm not say she was) then her work here is done. If she wasn't then I can't imagine she would be able to stand all this warm and fuzzy love.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Coffee Amore said:


> I think it depends on where you live, SA. In some parts of the country, especially in the suburbs of larger cities where women stay home because they're financially well off, you encounter more the attitude than you may in a more rural area.


Yes, this is likely very very true.. We are Rural...We had Nurses among us, a Massage Therapist, a kennel owner, a few worked as secretaries, etc .. some of the wives married to police officers, 2 Preachers wives, a farmer, a Doctor, an Air Marshall, an Accountant...none threw around their lifestyles or anything like that.

I can not stand cliques personally... I would have never lasted that long if I didn't enjoy those women....I was the longest attending member... cause I kept having another kid...Now this chapter of my life is over...


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## ladybird (Jun 16, 2010)

What works for one person doesn't always work for the another.


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Greenpearl
> 
> I used to be more of a "worrier" about the future...in our earlier years.. I had to have a *large stash* saved for MANY rainy days, torrential downpours even (but started yrs before we married).....what if we needed a new roof, another car, a new well, didn't want to miss the house of our dreams -the plan was to put a whopping amount down when we found our dream house....(which we did).
> 
> ...


Worrying is not all bad. It can be good in lots of ways. It helps us be cautious. You were worried about your finance, so you have become a very good saver. I am like this too. I won't spend all the money we make. I always make sure we put aside some money in case bad things happen. You have done a great job here. I think a simple lifestyle also helps. My husband and I live a simple lifestyle, we don't need much money to cover our expenses. If one of us loses our jobs, we can still function very well because our lifestyle is based on one income, actually mine, not his. 

Worrying about our health can motivate us to live a healthy lifestyle. My husband and I are worried about our health too. Constantly! So we make sure that we eat healthy food. We can't do anything about our genes, but living a healthy lifestyle is what we can do. 

But don't let worrying become stress, then it's not good.  I try not to.


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

mablenc said:


> while I am enjoying a few things I miss my job.


My job is not stable right now, so I am looking for another job. I can't stay at home all day. I need a job to keep me busy and focused.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

OP has bailed on us.


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

3Xnocharm said:


> OP has bailed on us.


She was scared.


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I realize HOW my words may come off, it sound braggish.. it's sounds so self assured..... you'd just have to know HIM...know US in real life...he's just not your typical guy.. I could insert many things to convince...but who am I... but what appears an overly confident cyberspace nobody..
> 
> I will give you this...had I married another ....being the typical of what it appears many men are made of today....Oh yeah....I hear you....I even will agree with you.. the risk would be shot up that BAR!....
> 
> My husband has never lied to me (only hid some porn back in the day-when I was too religious)..he is the most upstanding man I have ever known...the most unselfish by far...he would lay down his life for me & his children... I stand by what I said...only death & disability worry me...and those are horrible horrible things.


I can understand how you feel. Sometimes we say something good about our life, then some people will come and say somethings which make us need to defend ourselves, even start to have the kind of doubts they have. 

Your husband has religious background, so I am not surprised that he has all the wonderful qualities we want from a man. Relax, you are good!!!


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Happy Housewife7 said:


> Earlier I mentioned the incident that I overheard this weekend, at a salon I went to. A husband and wife were taking their children to get their haircut for school and the husband misheard the name of the stylist. And when he said the wrong name, in front of everyone in the waiting area his wife said "God you're such a retard, you always have to embarrass me" The tone of her voice was serious and she looked like she could of just slapped him. He just replied with "Oh okay yea I'm sorry" to her. I just couldn't believe that she would even speak to her husband that way, and in front of strangers. I could only imagine the things she says to him behind closed doors. I see more and more wives that disrespect their husbands like this everyday. I'm just wondering if maybe they have gotten a little too independent and feel they can treat their husbands like crap.


Yea, and there are many men who treat their wives as bad and worse. Why are you singling out women as though all women but you mistreat their husbands?


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

Blonde said:


> I have 5 children who have reached Major (>18), 4 of them daughters. I want them all to be professionals. I don't want them to be SAHW/M. I feel they will be more respected and have better marriages if they are well respected and well compensated outside the home.


Why can't they live their lives the way they want, and have you respect them for the choices they make?


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

butterscotch said:


> I am very much in favor of people having the kinds of lives they would like to. I hope I didn't seem as though I was being negative towards anybody's arrangement, because I don't feel that way. Even though I suspect the original post was not genuine in nature, I thought I was just answering the question as it was posed - why aren't women happy with an "old-fashioned" marriage? I answered it as saying why I wouldn't be happy with it, as I am a woman, and I did make a side comment about not seeing it being terribly in demand to begin with among my male peers either.


I didn't take your comment as negative towards my relationship at all. But in all honesty I do get irritated by how much it appears (at least to me) that women are way too judgmental of one another and in many cases project what is right for them onto others. I don't think its fair that career driven women are judged as ice queens that are bad mothers and wives by SAHMs. I also don't think its fair that many working women view stay at home moms as tragic figures that are not meeting their potential. I'm painting with a broad brush here but there definitely does appear to be disagreement between the groups.

Back when I was dating lot of woman were offended that I had zero interest in dating a goal oriented woman that wanted as much as I did professionally. Their perception is that I was afraid of a strong woman. That wasn't the case at all. I just knew when I was dating that the woman I pictured myself growing old with was a Suzy Homemaker type.


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

ReformedHubby said:


> I didn't take your comment as negative towards my relationship at all. But in all honesty I do get irritated by how much it appears (at least to me) that women are way too judgmental of one another and in many cases project what is right for them onto others. I don't think its fair that career driven women are judged as ice queens that are bad mothers and wives by SAHMs. I also don't think its fair that many working women view stay at home moms as tragic figures that are not meeting their potential. I'm painting with a broad brush here but there definitely does appear to be disagreement between the groups.
> 
> Back when I was dating lot of woman were offended that I had zero interest in dating a goal oriented woman that wanted as much as I did professionally. Their perception is that I was afraid of a strong woman. That wasn't the case at all. I just knew when I was dating that the woman I pictured myself growing old with was a Suzy Homemaker type.


Different people want different thing. Some men want a good wife who knows how to cook and look after the house. Some men want a wife who can also share the financial burden. Some men want a wife who can boost their career. But I think no matter what kind of wife you want, you want her to be loyal, faithful, diligent, and responsible. 

We can choose what ever role we want to have, as long as our husbands love us, respect us, and cherish us, we are fine. Housewives can be happy if their husbands respect, love, and cherish them. Career women can be happy if their husbands respect, love, and cherish them.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

greenpearl said:


> She was scared.


She would have to have been logged on to read even the first reply for that to be true. She posted, and logged off a few minutes later. The first reply didn't get posted until at least 10 minutes after she logged off. So, no, she didn't get scared away. Her "exit" was entirely different.


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

Maricha75 said:


> She would have to have been logged on to read even the first reply for that to be true. She posted, and logged off a few minutes later. The first reply didn't get posted until at least 10 minutes after she logged off. So, no, she didn't get scared away. Her "exit" was entirely different.


She did it for fun? Maybe a man did it. 

I thought she was real. 

Well, it was a good discussion though. Thanks to her or him.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Yes, this is likely very very true.. We are Rural...We had Nurses among us, a Massage Therapist, a kennel owner, a few worked as secretaries, etc .. some of the wives married to police officers, 2 Preachers wives, a farmer, a Doctor, an Air Marshall, an Accountant...none threw around their lifestyles or anything like that.
> 
> I can not stand cliques personally... I would have never lasted that long if I didn't enjoy those women....I was the longest attending member... cause I kept having another kid...Now this chapter of my life is over...


SA, you are concerned about what to do now that your youngest is no longer at home, right? Get involved at one of the schools. Now that my youngest is starting kindergarten, I plan to be more involved at their school. Last year, my sister and I popped popcorn one Friday every month. I was a part of the school's improvement committee as well. I couldn't make every meeting, but I plan to go to more of them this year. I also plan to make myself more available during the school day if they need parents/volunteers in classrooms, etc. That may be an option for you. My point is that being a SAHM doesn't mean you have to STAY HOME all day, especially when the kids aren't home.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

Wiserforit said:


> Why can't they live their lives the way they want, and have you respect them for the choices they make?


They can.

And they are an MD (married 29, no kids, intends on backing off to PT with engineer husband also backing off to PT when they have children and plans on retiring in 40's to do philanthropic work), a PA (married 26, no kids, does not know if she wants kids ever), a Harvard grad econ major going into business who has SO and appears to be planning $$$, marriage, lots of kids to include chinese adoptees (age 21, BF is Chinese), and full time live in nanny, and college freshman PA major (age 18 has BF).

Believe me, I don't tell them what to do! They have observed how SAHM are treated and they are all headed into well paid well respected professions. 

Except for the major son. My only major son (age 27) is married to a PA and is the primary caregiver of my only grandchild so far- with another in the oven. ie he is mainly a SAHD who does contractor work on the side. He dropped out of college due to a video gaming addiction.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

Recently had a family reunion including adult children. Brought this for my adult daughters to read. The 26 yo esp could be the cover girl

The Childfree Life - TIME


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

greenpearl said:


> I can understand how you feel. Sometimes we say something good about our life, then some people will come and say somethings which make us need to defend ourselves, even start to have the kind of doubts they have.
> 
> *Your husband has religious background, so I am not surprised that he has all the wonderful qualities we want from a man.* Relax, you are good!!!


Actually this is not true, his dad was the black sheep of the family and bailed on Catholicism... his Mom only took him to church now & then... I was more the religious one but he was always the Sweeter one.. more of those "*Fruits of the spirit*" going on...










I was always the more difficult one...what can I say...it's a temperament thing. I've gotten better with age.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

ReformedHubby said:


> I didn't take your comment as negative towards my relationship at all. But in all honesty I do get irritated by how much it appears (at least to me) that women are way too judgmental of one another and in many cases project what is right for them onto others. I don't think its fair that career driven women are judged as ice queens that are bad mothers and wives by SAHMs. I also don't think its fair that many working women view stay at home moms as tragic figures that are not meeting their potential. I'm painting with a broad brush here but there definitely does appear to be disagreement between the groups.
> 
> Back when I was dating lot of woman were offended that I had zero interest in dating a goal oriented woman that wanted as much as I did professionally. Their perception is that I was afraid of a strong woman. That wasn't the case at all. I just knew when I was dating that the woman I pictured myself growing old with was a Suzy Homemaker type.


To be honest, men are very judgmental also of career women. I've ready plenty of posts here in which men do not state it simply as you do. Instead they list a long list of the horrible qualities of career women and why they will not be with one.

Then we have the men who go on and on about how dare their SAHW/M expect anything financially in a marriage breakup because she contributed nothing to the marriage (meaning she did not bring in an income so her contribution to the marriage/family had no value).

Both men and women pick on these things.


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Actually this is not true, his dad was the black sheep of the family and bailed on Catholicism... his Mom only took him to church now & then... I was more the religious one but he was always the Sweeter one.. more of those "*Fruits of the spirit*" going on...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well, then his mother did a good job teaching him to be a good man. Or he got the good qualities somewhere else. Whatever, he has great qualities. 

I am grateful to my mother-in-law and their religion for giving me a wonderful husband. Although my husband isn't active in his religion, many years in this religion has helped him shape his personality wonderfully. I don't care where he got it as long as he has it.


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

EleGirl said:


> To be honest, men are very judgmental also of career women. I've ready plenty of posts here in which men do not state it simply as you do. Instead they list a long list of the horrible qualities of career women and why they will not be with one.
> 
> Then we have the men who go on and on about how dare their SAHW/M expect anything financially in a marriage breakup because she contributed nothing to the marriage (meaning she did not bring in an income so her contribution to the marriage/family had no value).
> 
> Both men and women pick on these things.


People usually only notice what they don't have. For what they have, they take it for granted. That's why it is difficult for people to be happy. 

I have to remind myself often to appreciate what I have and be happy with I have. Don't feel sad for what I don't have. Nobody's life is perfect.


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## KKanon (Dec 11, 2012)

My 1st husband died three years into the marriage at the age of 33. He earned 75% of our income. If I was a SAHW at the time, I think it would have compounded my devastation 3 fold. We did not have children. 3 years into my recovery, I decided to quit my job and go to school fulltime. I would not have been able to do this if I had a child.
I am in my 2nd marriage now, and earn 75% of the income.

I am glad the OP is having it good, but sometimes life is forced on you, and you make do with what you have in front of you.


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## Wiltshireman (Jan 23, 2013)

What about that rare thing a "Stay at home Dad".

Due to her greater earning power (she’s an accountant / tax consultant he worked for a charity) my sister went back to work as soon as her maternity pay ran out and my brother in law stayed home to care for each of the kids / run the house until both girls were in fulltime schooling (about 7 years with the age gap) and then he went back to work part time and studied for his degree.

Now that their girls have both graduated he has become an ordained church minister.

As others have said there is no “one size fits all” way to live your lives but as long as what you do works for you then why not just be happy.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Happy Housewife7 said:


> Earlier I mentioned the incident that I overheard this weekend, at a salon I went to. A husband and wife were taking their children to get their haircut for school and the husband misheard the name of the stylist. *And when he said the wrong name, in front of everyone in the waiting area his wife said "God you're such a retard, you always have to embarrass me" *The tone of her voice was serious and she looked like she could of just slapped him. He just replied with "Oh okay yea I'm sorry" to her. I just couldn't believe that she would even speak to her husband that way, and in front of strangers. I could only imagine the things she says to him behind closed doors. I see more and more wives that disrespect their husbands like this everyday. I'm just wondering if maybe they have gotten a little too independent and feel they can treat their husbands like crap.


Even if the OP is a troll and will never come back, I want to address this scenario for a couple of reasons.

1. We may never know the backstory that precedes what we see in public.

2. some people choose to act up in public because they are counting on other people to give in so as to avoid making a scene.

3. Given what the offense hear seems like, I am personally very sensitive to it. That is, for the most part, my mother and my sister like playing the game of "let's find a jokey alternative name for someone or something and see how long you tolerate correcting me while I play stupid." 

Granted, some people have never encountered it or encountered to a degree in which they finally need to identify what is going on. but I have had to. when I was younger and I truly had no idea what my mother was talking about, she was really verbally abusive towards me. "You know who I am talking about." Really?

Nowadays, I steel my patience and simply say "I do not know what you are referring to." then the game is up. And then they have to be in control of themselves so as to not let on that they knew the correct name to begin with.

An example from a few years ago with that guy dated for 2 years. He kept referring to a London tube station as "Swiss College' and it seemed a bit too much in this conversation as we were trying to decide where to go eat and going back to a place where we had been before.

I was tired of this game so I said "where's Swiss College." You know, he says breezily. So I asked him to show it me. He hands me the London Underground map. I say, I don't see a Swiss College. It's on there, he says. But I don't see it, I say. Could you show it to me.

He finally pointed out the sto "Swiss Cottage." But that's Swiss Cottage, I say. Not Swiss College. You said Swiss College, so where is it........

Finally, he decided the game was up and said to me with clenched teeth: "I know it's Swiss Cottage, I just have trouble pronouncing it." And a few times after that, every time he made a reference to that tube stop, he would purposely slow down his speech and enunciate very obviously the name........

In other words, how much of that would you put up with?

And what I noticed later in life, my father started playing that game as well........ So just because someone didn't do those things early on, when you knew them does not mean that they won't pick up a new game.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

> Originally Posted by *Coffee Amore *
> I think it depends on where you live, SA. In some parts of the country, *especially in the suburbs of larger cities where women stay home because they're financially well off, you encounter more the attitude than you may in a more rural area*.


I just want to say something about this...I don't think these women should carry an attitude, as they are indeed very blessed ...but I don't for a moment blame them for staying home, in fact they would get more* respect* over someone like myself -cause they are RICH... even if their husband's cheated/ whatever, they could take them & get quite the settlement and I'm sure if he died, they would be well set as well, likely have million dollar Life Insurance or something. 

My husband is just a Blue collar worker, so it looks worse for someone like myself ... I really shouldn't even say I am a SAHM because I do work, it just isn't like a full time anything...and of course I couldn't live on it.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

For the sake of discussion I'm going to recommend the book The Feminine Mistake. It is an extension of the 1963 book The Feminine Mystique, by Betty Friedman. The latter was written just as the feminist movement in the US was starting to take hold, and it is basically a big lecture on how women should embrace traditional roles, because there's nothing more satisfying then making a home for your husband and children. Sounds warm and fuzzy, right? Right, except that Mrs. Friedman's husband asked her for a divorce after 40 years of marriage, and while he was vacationing with his new girlfriend she was selling her jewelry to pay for roof repairs. This isn't meant to be an indictment of sahm's, its just a reminder that life happens and whatever a couple decides works for them one should always be prepared for life's unknowns.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

I didn't put my 2 daughters through 4 yrs. of college each (very expensive) to learn how to cook, clean & take care of children.

Our job as parents is to teach our children to be independent of us in all ways including financial regardless of gender. My daughters (younger than you) both have careers. Should they someday decide to be a SAHM, they can always go back to work should the need arise.

I actually know more marriages that have imploded because the woman did not work. I've seen more posts here from men that have troubled marriages because the wives refuse to work when they need the income.

I've yet to see a man post who is upset that his wife works & he wants her to stay home.


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## hambone (Mar 30, 2013)

Happy Housewife7 said:


> Hello all!
> This is my first post so bear with me if I ramble. I guess I was inspired to do this first discussion because of an incident I saw this weekend. A little background information, I'm 25 and I've been married to my wonderful husband for almost 7 years. My husband truly is my best friend and I'm happy to see him every single day. I guess you can say we are in a "old fashioned" relationship as far as gender roles go. I stay home and do all the cooking and cleaning, and the majority of the child care (unless I'm hurt or sick then he tries to take my place lol). My husband works a long 8-9 hour day in a factory and handles our finances, bills, and all the handy work around the house. And we're not overly religious, so that has nothing to do with our views on gender roles.
> 
> I very much enjoy having a role in our marriage and I believe we have a strong one because of it. My husband rushes home to see me everyday, rarely ever wants to go out without me and our daughter, and even takes a few vacation days off a year just to stay home with me all day. There is no fighting about who is going to do what, because we're not both so tired from going to work. My husband opens doors for me, handles all the heavy "man work" and treats me like a lady. In return I respect him and try hard to make him feel like a leader and a man. My question is why don't other wives try to do the same? My husband works with a lot of married men at his factory and he is always telling me how they just hate their marriages. They're shocked to even hear that my husband gets home cooked meals every night. Their wives work long hours and by the time they do see each other they're exhausted and want almost nothing to do with them.
> ...


My wife has always been a SAHM.... At one point, when the kids are little... I got her a maid that came twice a week for a half day each time.

Why don't more women enjoy the traditional family?

Well, the feminists in the 60's and 70's demonized those that were "JUST a house wife!" 

Too much materialism. Everybody wants more stuff.

Too many young people don't see the advantages of having a wife at home... I certainly didn't when I was younger.

It's so much easier when Mom doesn't work. The kids are taken care of... She's not exhausted all the time... Husband can come home after work and relax. This is just so much less stress when Mom doesn't work...


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> To be honest, men are very judgmental also of career women. I've ready plenty of posts here in which men do not state it simply as you do. Instead they list a long list of the horrible qualities of career women and why they will not be with one.
> 
> Then we have the men who go on and on about how dare their SAHW/M expect anything financially in a marriage breakup because she contributed nothing to the marriage (meaning she did not bring in an income so her contribution to the marriage/family had no value).
> 
> Both men and women pick on these things.


I am intrigued by your use of the world horrible. What may be a horrible quality for one man may very well be ideal to another. I don't necessarily see anything wrong with stating that any personality or even physical quality is horrible to you in a potential mate. Picking a mate is not the the time to be PC. Its better be honest with yourself and choose what you know you like, even if it is unpopular. 

Just because a man says he doesn't want to marry a working woman it doesn't mean that he thinks she and other working women are horrible people. It just means that she would probably make a horrible wife for him, but certainly a suitable one for someone else.

Using my lovely wife as an example I'm sure quite a few men would probably say she is a spoiled, entitled, and high maintenance. But, I love these things about her. My emotional need to provide is almost as important as my need for affection. If I were with a woman who I didn't feel needed me at all I wouldn't feel like there was really anything I could do for her. I would feel useless. I love to spoil her, and she loves to be spoiled.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Happy Housewife7 said:


> I know that I've been married almost 7 years and I'm only 25 and have had no problems with mine, when people 10-15 years older than me who have been married for less and are on their first or second divorce. Just would love to hear other peoples view on this.


Kudos to you on loving your marriage. That is great.  

But I will say this: you really cannot speak on behalf of anyone 10-15 years older than you who have been married/divorced because you simply have not had the experience (yet). 

But it's good you found someone you gel with well. That is a blessing. 

*I enjoy my "old fashioned" marriage, why don't other women?*

Some women do. Some don't. We aren't all the same and that is what makes life so wonderful!


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## Wiltshireman (Jan 23, 2013)

Emerald said:


> I've yet to see a man post who is upset that his wife works & he wants her to stay home.


I used to be just such a man.

After the birth of our 3rd child my wife went back to work but with the cost of childcare and commuting etc we were no better off financially, the children had no routine and we were both exhausted trying to keep on top of the household chores whilst working.

Thankfully my wife now works part time from home looking after other people children. The only slight worry I have is that looking after other peoples babies will make her broody again.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Emerald said:


> I didn't put my 2 daughters through 4 yrs. of college each (very expensive) to learn how to cook, clean & take care of children.


I love you. :smthumbup:

If I could "like" this ten times, I would.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Jellybeans said:


> I love you. :smthumbup:
> 
> If I could "like" this ten times, I would.


They should know how to do this anyway.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

men should as well.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

ScarletBegonias said:


> men should as well.


Agree. Some gender roles should remain, but both should be able to do both.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

hambone said:


> My wife has always been a SAHM.... At one point, when the kids are little... I got her a maid that came twice a week for a half day each time.
> 
> Why don't more women enjoy the traditional family?
> 
> ...


I think you're onto something with the desire for more for stuff comment. Just speaking from my experience in suburbia a lot of couples both work just to afford an upper end lifestyle. They want the biggest home they can get. Quite a few power couples in my hood. For the most part they do seem to be just as happy as anyone else. At least on the outside looking in.


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## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

> I didn't put my 2 daughters through 4 yrs. of college each (very expensive) to learn how to cook, clean & take care of children.


Going to college these days is no guarantee of anything. So looking at from purely an employment standpoint is likely off, given our current economic and employment situation. I think instead it should be about how it helps a person grow and expand themselves. 

Even if I'm a SAHM the rest of my life, I know that my experience with analysis, multitasking, and research makes me a more capable person and a more capable person. That I'll be able to help with homework is a bonus (except math, please ask your father.) 

But the whole "that's what college is for" thing? I've heard that myself from my mother (who didn't give me a dime, so I think her comments are totally unwarranted) about how "it's a waste." Which really - is kind of soul-crushing.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

I was thinking about how my 26yod might respond to this 25 yo OP. She dated her high school sweetheart since age 14 and married him at age 21. She is the one who talks like she may never have children. Her and her husband are both professionals. She's a PA and he's a schoolteacher at an inner city charter school.


She loves apt living in the city- no home maintenance (husband is not handy at all, she hangs the curtain rods and cleans the drains), convenient commuting

They LOVE to travel. They go on a trip somewhere at least every three months.

She always drives a new leased car and says she never wants old cars (like we drove when she grew up which would break down routinely when we travelled any distance)

Basically, I would say that the freedom and comfortable/fun aspects of remaining child free are the aspects which appeal to her.


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## Kobo (May 13, 2010)

This thread is funny. If the genders are to live their life based on the worst case scenario then men need to do away marriage without a prenup.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Kobo said:


> This thread is funny. If the genders are to live their life based on the worst case scenario then men need to do away marriage without a prenup.


Women, too, if they are the ones with the earning power and assets.


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## Kobo (May 13, 2010)

norajane said:


> Women, too, if they are the ones with the earning power and assets.


No doubt. I would hate to live in that reality.


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## RoseAglow (Apr 11, 2013)

hambone said:


> My wife has always been a SAHM.... At one point, when the kids are little... I got her a maid that came twice a week for a half day each time.
> 
> Why don't more women enjoy the traditional family?
> 
> ...


Well, that might be true of some people. I know most of my family who didn't go to college work only for a paycheck.

However, of my friends and family who went to college or a trade school, we are in a career. The vast majority of us value that career. This is true for men and women.

I personally love working- I love my job- I feel like I am doing a service in clinical research. People all of the world might benefit from the work I am doing. It is very fulfilling. 

The "traditional" family was never of any interest to me. My mom did it when I was young, and she did NOT enjoy it. She loved me and my sister and spending time with us, but overall, she became much happier and fulfilled when she went back to work. 

Feminism opened doors for people like me, who love working and wanted to be in a career. There are still plenty of women who stay at home and love it, and more power to them! To each their own! We now have choice.

As for demonzing- sadly, the Mommy Wars are in full swing. Some women do a fine job of casting stones at people who don't make the same choice- as you can see in the OP here. 



> Too many young people don't see the advantages of having a wife at home... I certainly didn't when I was younger.
> 
> It's so much easier when Mom doesn't work. The kids are taken care of... She's not exhausted all the time... Husband can come home after work and relax. This is just so much less stress when Mom doesn't work...


I am glad it worked out for you. I think relaxation and stress are more a function of good organization skills though and less an issue of SAH vs Working moms. For instance, my husband and I both work, we have pretty decent-running set up now for dinner, play-time, bath-time, bed time. We are both involved and it works out well. Again, to each their own.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

I was a SAHM for 20 years, then I worked full time for the first time in my chosen career for 6 years. I chose NOT to work because I could not bring myself to have other people care for my babies. I didn't find great pleasure in housework, nor cooking but I became very good at it because I wanted a clean house and I wanted to eat good food. When I went to work, the house fell apart and the food was awful! I discovered some women can balance both well, others can't. I can't and I couldn't cope with the guilt of not always being available for my youngest. Life is easier for everyone when I can be at home.

It is interesting, having been on both sides of the fence, how working Moms either had this incredible ability to balance, delegate, and keep schedules, or like me, they admitted they sucked at being working Moms and pined for the day when they could focus on just being a Mom.


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## RoseAglow (Apr 11, 2013)

ReformedHubby said:


> My emotional need to provide is almost as important as my need for affection. If I were with a woman who I didn't feel needed me at all I wouldn't feel like there was really anything I could do for her. I would feel useless.


Back in early the early 2000s, when I started 'dating for keeps', I recognized that several of the men I dated had this emotional need to provide.

In my case, the emotional need being shown was the need to be able to provide financially. No one used the words "emotional need", and this only ever came up after, say, the 3rd or 4th date. It was a real eye-opener for me.

One guy explained to me that for most men, being able to provide is a mark of a man. He said that he didn't actually acknowledge himself as a grown man until he made a certain salary, where he knew he could take care of a wife and child. He was speaking for himself, but I think it applies to many good guys.

Another gentleman actually- completely unprovoked by me in any way!- showed me his pay stub. He pointed out to me he had already paid more in taxes mid-year than I was going to make for the entire year! (Not that he knew what I made, but he knew I was not earning anywhere near his level- and he was accurate in his assessment!)

I believe that for many men, it is a matter of pride for them that they can provide, they can have a SAHW. I think there is nothing wrong with that! I think the main thing is to know it and pick your mate accordingly. That is the whole point of dating- to chose the person best suited to you!

As a side note, I had to split with the guy I was most attracted to during my hard-core dating period for this very reason. He had it all: he was very smart, funny, sweet, confident, incredibly hot physically and intellectually, and I put him at the Expert level in bed. He was awesome! 

But- I just couldn't handle the extent of his need to provide. It felt smothering to me. He had a hard time just letting me pay for coffee. I would try to pay for dinner and he would be visibly uncomfortable with it. 

He never said anything discouraging about my work- it wasn't that he was unhappy that I worked, and he said he could deal with me continuing to work, even after kids. The clash of values was that ultimately it was important to him that HE was the guy to provide the financial needs of a household. He wanted to be the one to pay for hair cuts, dresses, gas, everything- it was a joy to him and a matter of pride. He had a lot to give, and he felt fulfilled when he was able to give it.

It broke my heart, because I just always had the best time with him-I really dug him. But, for me, I need to be my own provider. I need to be able to stand on my own two feet financially and be able to take care of myself. I need to be a contributor to the bills, I need a career. I didn't need at all the things that he most wanted to give. Many women have an emotional need to be supported financially, but I am not one of them. 

We got together a few times to try to make things work, but ended up parting on good terms. I was way too attracted to him to stay friends so I haven't seen or heard from him in over a decade. But, I bet he is making some very lucky girl happy!


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

RoseAglow said:


> Back in early the early 2000s, when I started 'dating for keeps', I recognized that several of the men I dated had this emotional need to provide.
> 
> In my case, the emotional need being shown was the need to be able to provide financially. No one used the words "emotional need", and this only ever came up after, say, the 3rd or 4th date. It was a real eye-opener for me.
> 
> ...


I really like your post. I feel that men don't have a biological clock, but we do have a financial clock. In our minds by the time we reach 30 we should be financially stable enough to get married and support a family. Even men that have zero desire to get married know that dates are hard to come by for a broke man over 30. When you're a young man potential mates aren't looking too closely at your financial health because you are just starting out, but as you get older if you aren't financially established its a huge red flag for a lot of women, and I can't say I blame them for feeling that way.


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

butterscotch said:


> I don't even know any MEN who would want this marriage you're describing. They would dread having a "dependent" wife who expects them to make all of her decisions for her and do everything all of the time.


Chock full of feminist-speak denigration of the stay at home mom. You don't have to be a feminist to use their propaganda. 

That word "dependent" can equally be leveled upon the man who depends on his wife to take care of the home and kids. The deceit of the feminist propaganda is to use this term "dependence", only against the mother, instead of seeing marriage as reciprocity: both of them _contributing_. 

You have placed zero value on the wife and mother, yet if we look at the market compensation for all her activities it is tens of thousands of dollars in services. Since they aren't taxed though, you have to earn another 30% or more in the marketplace to pay for both the services and the taxes on your income. 



> But I don't really associate with religious people, which I reckon is most of the people who ascribe to proscribed gender roles these days.


I don't associate with religious people either. Nor do any of the other men I know that live similarly to me. It has more to do with the setting here with so many of us living a homesteader-type lifestyle. The women are not suited to the heavy outdoor work, nor do they like it as much as having a neat and tidy home.


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## Wiltshireman (Jan 23, 2013)

ReformedHubby said:


> I really like your post. I feel that men don't have a biological clock, but we do have a financial clock. In our minds by the time we reach 30 we should be financially stable enough to get married and support a family. Even men that have zero desire to get married know that dates are hard to come by for a broke man over 30. When you're a young man potential mates aren't looking too closely at your financial health because you are just starting out, but as you get older if you aren't financially established its a huge red flag for a lot of women, and I can't say I blame them for feeling that way.


This was certainly the case for me. I did not start looking for a "life long partner" as opposed to "girls to date" until I knew I was in a position to support a family. 
Not just the money / benefits I needed to "grow up" and reach a "level of maturity" before I considered myself to be ready for that level of commitment. 

I final married at 29 and now 20 years next year we are still together.


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## hambone (Mar 30, 2013)

RoseAglow said:


> Well, that might be true of some people. I know most of my family who didn't go to college work only for a paycheck.
> 
> However, of my friends and family who went to college or a trade school, we are in a career. The vast majority of us value that career. This is true for men and women.
> 
> ...


So, if you are super organized... and everyone follows the plan with precision... You CAN get it all done!


Great... 

Now, compare that to, me coming home. and we don't have to run, run, run to get it all done. We can actually just relax and enjoy down time together.

See, I have never felt like you could actually schedule quality time with your family. Quality time happens in and amongst quantity time.

As I said earlier, when I was in my early 20's, I wanted my wife working so we could have more material possessions. Later, I figured out that down time to just relax and be with my family was worth more than that extra income.

The really sad thing is... by the time a lot of people figure that out, (if they ever do) it's too late. The kids are already grown and you missed.


I married later in life.. We were both 35 when we married. I worked my butt off early on and even into our early marriage. But, once I got kids... my priorities changed. I hate to brag on myself but I am good at generating income and both of us are very good at managing money. I was able to retire when I was 45. I went on every field trip... every field day, every soccer game, basketball game... I was always up at the school eating lunch with my daughter (That came to a screeching halt when she entered middle school)... I thoroughly enjoyed raising my kids. My baby started college today.

To put it kindly, I was a little more involved with raising my kids than most dads. 

Now, if I had to belong to a Country Club.. and drive a new Lexus every 2 years and have the nicest clothes etc. etc. I'd still be working.


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> To be honest, men are very judgmental also of career women. I've ready plenty of posts here in which men do not state it simply as you do. Instead they list a long list of the horrible qualities of career women and why they will not be with one.


Oh really? I noticed you didn't actually quote any, and this thread would be an example of where they would be if they existed.

The overwhelming social force at work since the 1960's is the inculcation of a belief that women are less valuable as housewives and mothers than as women working outside the home. That is exactly why the OP appears as a troll, since it runs so contrary to politically correct thought. 

I don't see men listing horrible qualities of career women. I see them listing the wonderful benefits of their stay-at-home wives, in contradiction to the feminist pejoratives like "dependency" and "submissiveness", etc. Just keeping up with trying to counter these malicious labels is time consuming on TAM.


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## Phenix70 (May 6, 2012)

Blonde said:


> I was thinking about how my 26yod might respond to this 25 yo OP. She dated her high school sweetheart since age 14 and married him at age 21. She is the one who talks like she may never have children. Her and her husband are both professionals. She's a PA and he's a schoolteacher at an inner city charter school.
> 
> 
> She loves apt living in the city- no home maintenance (husband is not handy at all, she hangs the curtain rods and cleans the drains), convenient commuting
> ...


This is my H & I, we too are Child Free by choice.
Neither of us have ever had a desire to have children, pets yes, children no.
Besides, with how dysfunctional our families are, I highly doubt bringing a child into the fold would be a good idea.
We live in the suburbs, travel, do what we want, when we want. 
When it comes to socializing, it still amazes me how noisy people are when they find out we're Child Free, you would have thought I told them we were from Mars, especially the SAHM's.
Just as I can't understand why anyone would want many children under the age of 5, they can't understand why I DON'T.
Interestingly enough, only one of my close friends has a child, the rest either are waiting or chose to be Child Free as well. 

To the Hit & Run OP, I say do what you want, your life is your life, there's no need to be concerned with what others do with theirs.


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## barbados (Aug 30, 2012)

WOW ! one post and ten pages of replies so far !


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## COGypsy (Aug 12, 2010)

Kobo said:


> This thread is funny. If the genders are to live their life based on the worst case scenario then men need to do away marriage without a prenup.


I'm not a man and there's no way in hell I'd get married without a prenup. In fact, I *didn't* get married until the pre-nup was fully signed and executed. That's just common sense, like a will and power of attorney.


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## RoseAglow (Apr 11, 2013)

hambone said:


> So, if you are super organized... and everyone follows the plan with precision... You CAN get it all done!
> 
> 
> Great...


LOL! I am not super organized, and there is no plan done to precision! We have a general guideline of: dinner, play time, bath time, books, bed time. I think this is the normal evening routine for loads of families with working and non-working Moms.



> Now, compare that to, me coming home. and we don't have to run, run, run to get it all done. We can actually just relax and enjoy down time together.
> 
> See, I have never felt like you could actually schedule quality time with your family. Quality time happens in and amongst quantity time.


I am glad for you, and I actually agree that quality time happens among quantity time. Most days I don't feel rushed. We don't run, run, run to get it all done. We are not high stress on this stuff, we really enjoy our time with our son in the evenings (most of the time! He is in his 2s!)



> To put it kindly, I was a little more involved with raising my kids than most dads.
> 
> Now, if I had to belong to a Country Club.. and drive a new Lexus every 2 years and have the nicest clothes etc. etc. I'd still be working.


I think that is awesome. Congrats to you and your financial skills, and being able to retire so young. Those are your and your wife's values, and it sounds like you've had a successful marriage and family based on those values. That is fabulous.

From your posts, it sounds like you don't believe it is possible to have a high quality life, high quality relationships, even good quantity relationships, when both parents work. 

I assure you, it is possible. I am living it and so are many, many other families. My husband might not have lunch with our son every day at preschool or when he's older, at school, but we have it set up so that we get in lots of good time together as a family. 

Working parents and successful families are not mutually exclusive.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

OP--I haven't read the entire thread, just the first post, but....

If you're both happy, you're doing it right.


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

butterscotch said:


> You've attributed feelings to my words that I do not have.


Hilarious. You are still in this post claiming you don't know a single man that would want a "dependent" woman, yet it is not a pejorative.  It is by definition a pejorative the way you have used it. 



> any emotional reaction you have to the choice of that word isn't my concern.


Heh. Concerned enough to write at length about it, and contradict yourself in so doing. 

You are dishonest in argumentation by harping on the "I don't know any" claim. The primary purpose of literacy is to open one's mind to what is going on in the rest of the world instead of basing all of your opinions on whoever your close friends and family are. 

The literate person speaks to what he reads about, instead of using this provincial expression "I don't know anyone". That is the tactic of invalidating, and usually the person doing it is lying. Look how you wish to invalidate me by saying "I don't know you". So what? I represent millions in the US and billions worldwide, and you know that. So why would a reasonable person keep harping on "I don't know you, I don't know any"? They don't. 

If I offered you a thousand dollars for naming one, it would take you less than ten seconds to name one that you knew. 




> I am not saying my way is better, or that they have no contributions to their marriages/society, or anything of the sort. All I said is that for me, personally, I would not be happy in that arrangement because I am fiercely independent.


Rubbish. If you really felt that way then you wouldn't use disengenuous argumentation. I do not have any personal friends that are Buddhist, but I don't denigrate them by saying I don't know anyone that would want to be one, then list out all of the things I see wrong with Buddhism. 



> I have not encountered any men in real life that would have ever wanted their spouses to be one anyway.


That is clearly not true. You have never encountered a single man in your entire life that liked his housewife? The subject probably never even came up for the majority of men you have met. You have encountered me, and probably others on this forum, but it was important for you to invalidate us by saying "I don't know you". 

This is a good example of not being able to help yourself in exaggerating for the purpose of manipulative argumentation.


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## imhiswifey (Aug 16, 2013)

My husband and I are traditional and non traditional at the same time.

Traditional in the sense that I do all of the cooking, cleaning, laundry - homemaking responsibilities etc. I also have two sons. My husband works a full time job 8 hours a day, comes home to home cooked meals like the OP. My husband treats me like a lady, is loyal and humble. I treat him like a man, etc. 

I would never, ever be disrespectful to my husband. We have worked so hard for so long on our relationship (overseas long distance for the first year and a half) and I have used a lot of my savings to see him early on in our relationship (flights from Canada to Europe). 

Non traditional in a sense that I also work but not as long hours, I enjoy activities that only I do and so does my husband. We have the best of both traditional and non traditional roles I guess and I would not change anything in the world. Being a little closer to my mum and dad would be great but I have Skype


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

Kobo said:


> This thread is funny. If the genders are to live their life based on the worst case scenario then men need to do away marriage without a prenup.


I had to laugh at your post. So many replies referenced how would a SAHM support herself if her husband died. Hasn't anybody heard of term life insurance? A twenty year policy is fairly reasonable.


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## imhiswifey (Aug 16, 2013)

FrenchFry said:


> I like your avatar and your marriage philosophy.  My husband is also Irish and I work from home.


Thanks! Yep he's full blown Irish, accent and all and I love it!! We now call London home


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## hambone (Mar 30, 2013)

RoseAglow said:


> LOL! I am not super organized, and there is no plan done to precision! We have a general guideline of: dinner, play time, bath time, books, bed time. I think this is the normal evening routine for loads of families with working and non-working Moms.
> 
> I am glad for you, and I actually agree that quality time happens among quantity time. Most days I don't feel rushed. We don't run, run, run to get it all done. We are not high stress on this stuff, we really enjoy our time with our son in the evenings (most of the time! He is in his 2s!)
> 
> ...


Well it kind of depends on your values. What do you value most? 

When I was younger, I defined success by material possessions.
I wanted my wife working... making more money so we could have more stuff...

When I got children... my priorities changed. I changed jobs so I didn't have to work nights, weekends, and holidays. Shortly after we had our first child, my wife quit working.

I've been in both situations. And life is so much less stressful when the wife doesn't work.

Do you have anything to compare. Have you been a SAHM? 

My values changed as I got older. I saw the value of having my wife at home with the children. She was there when the babies first rolled over... When they said Da da and Ma ma for the fist time. The first time they crawled... first time the walked. 

My wife absolutely LOVES being a mom and a wife. 

When the kids were little... she use to bring me breakfast in bed... with the paper. Turn my shower water on.. lay my clothes out etc. Life is GOOD!


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## RoseAglow (Apr 11, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> I was a SAHM for 20 years, then I worked full time for the first time in my chosen career for 6 years. I chose NOT to work because I could not bring myself to have other people care for my babies. I didn't find great pleasure in housework, nor cooking but I became very good at it because I wanted a clean house and I wanted to eat good food. When I went to work, the house fell apart and the food was awful! I discovered some women can balance both well, others can't. I can't and I couldn't cope with the guilt of not always being available for my youngest. Life is easier for everyone when I can be at home.
> 
> It is interesting, having been on both sides of the fence, how working Moms either had this incredible ability to balance, delegate, and keep schedules, or like me, they admitted they sucked at being working Moms and pined for the day when they could focus on just being a Mom.


I think the main thing here is that you pined for the day when you could focus on just being a Mom. Being a SAHM was your heart's desire- I am glad you got to do that! 

I suspect that whatever it is you had to give up to be a SAHM, it was worth it to you. It probably wasn't all that big a deal, the things you were getting to be at home was worth it all. 

For those of us who want to be Working Moms, the hard work is worth it. It's not that working moms are any better at it, it's just that they we have different priorities., different goals.

I don't think, as a general rule, that working moms are any better organized, or have better delegation skills, etc. than SAH moms. All Moms I know, whether at home or working, need to be able to balance, to delegate, to schedule, to prioritize, to juggle. 

The only difference between Working and SAH Moms is that each has a different set of circumstances to work with.


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## committed4ever (Nov 13, 2012)

COGypsy said:


> I'm not a man and there's no way in hell I'd get married without a prenup. In fact, I *didn't* get married until the pre-nup was fully signed and executed. *That's just common sense*, like a will and power of attorney.


Yep! Got to be prepared for when the marriage ends *before* it begins, as all marriages, of course, do end.


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## hambone (Mar 30, 2013)

RoseAglow said:


> I think the main thing here is that you pined for the day when you could focus on just being a Mom. Being a SAHM was your heart's desire- I am glad you got to do that!
> 
> I suspect that whatever it is you had to give up to be a SAHM, it was worth it to you. It probably wasn't all that big a deal, the things you were getting to be at home was worth it all.
> 
> ...


I wonder if you ask your kids.... Would you rather mom pick you up at school and spend time with mom? Or ride a bus to daycare and spend time there every day?

What do you think they would say?


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## krismimo (Jan 26, 2011)

Happy Housewife7 said:


> Hello all!
> This is my first post so bear with me if I ramble. I guess I was inspired to do this first discussion because of an incident I saw this weekend. A little background information, I'm 25 and I've been married to my wonderful husband for almost 7 years. My husband truly is my best friend and I'm happy to see him every single day. I guess you can say we are in a "old fashioned" relationship as far as gender roles go. I stay home and do all the cooking and cleaning, and the majority of the child care (unless I'm hurt or sick then he tries to take my place lol). My husband works a long 8-9 hour day in a factory and handles our finances, bills, and all the handy work around the house. And we're not overly religious, so that has nothing to do with our views on gender roles.
> 
> I very much enjoy having a role in our marriage and I believe we have a strong one because of it. My husband rushes home to see me everyday, rarely ever wants to go out without me and our daughter, and even takes a few vacation days off a year just to stay home with me all day. There is no fighting about who is going to do what, because we're not both so tired from going to work. My husband opens doors for me, handles all the heavy "man work" and treats me like a lady. In return I respect him and try hard to make him feel like a leader and a man. My question is why don't other wives try to do the same? My husband works with a lot of married men at his factory and he is always telling me how they just hate their marriages. They're shocked to even hear that my husband gets home cooked meals every night. Their wives work long hours and by the time they do see each other they're exhausted and want almost nothing to do with them.
> ...



I* see where your coming from to a degree. And I know you mean well but you come off as smug and sort of condescending but I also feel that you didn't mean to come across that way. You did raise a good point. But I think you just worded it in such a way that it turned people off. To a degree you are right, there are a lot of women who are disrespectful to their husbands who wear the pants so to speak etc etc. However it's also the husbands position to stand up for himself it works both ways. *

*We all have this tendency to sort of over generalize, make assumptions about a few things and say voila! It works for me so it should work for you right? Wrong. Good for you for figuring out what works for your marriage. But you can't group people and say things like why your marriage works and why others don't is because their marriages is not like yours. You have to be careful when you make statements like that. Just because your marriage is not traditional or old fashioned does not mean it is not going to work. [*B][/B]

*For example,

My husband is twice my age with kidney failure.(Not anymore because I gave him my kidney). Crazy I know. He couldn't work because he was on dialysis but he received income through disability, so guess who had to work to support the both of us?
I did. I worked, took care of him, and after awhile I also helped him to get on the dialysis machine in our home. Go to appointments etc etc, and then low and behold he lost his eye sight my husband was blind for almost a whole year. He got better had many many surgeries and fast forward now were are here. My husband wanted to provide for me he wanted to care of me financially. You know what I told him? You take care of yourself that is how you take care of me. I have been working since I was 18 we will get to that point but unless you get you better all that s*** doesn't matter. 
*

[*B]So why am I telling you this? Because marriage and life can throw you curve balls that you couldn't possibly imagined you may think you have things under control and then BAM Life 
says guess what? I feel like throwing you a few curve balls. Deal with it. I was 26 when I got married, (not that much older than you) I'm about to be 30. And I can tell you I'm still figuring out the whole marriage thing. I think you can never know to much about yourself or your marriage. 
*


*In short what people are saying is that if your lucky your life stays this simple, uncomplicated, and tranquil. Because usually life is just not that way. Again good for you for figuring out what makes you happy, but also broaden your mind a bit. For example you spoke of that woman you spoke to her husband crazy, you don't know what happened in there lives, he could have cheated on her, someone close to her could have passed away. And although she was being not so "respectful" to her husband there could have been more going on than you realize. You just can't say see there because their marriage is not like ours that woman there is being disrespectful to her husband. It is much more to it than that. I hope you get what I'm saying. And I wish you good luck in marriage. Just remember happiness doesn't always come in the same package. 
*


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## hambone (Mar 30, 2013)

COGypsy said:


> I'm not a man and there's no way in hell I'd get married without a prenup. In fact, I *didn't* get married until the pre-nup was fully signed and executed. That's just common sense, like a will and power of attorney.


I got a pre-nup when I got married.

It did not specify the terms of the divorce. 

What it did was document what I had when we got married and what she had when we got married.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> I was a SAHM for 20 years, then I worked full time for the first time in my chosen career for 6 years. I chose NOT to work because I could not bring myself to have other people care for my babies. I didn't find great pleasure in housework, nor cooking but I became very good at it because I wanted a clean house and I wanted to eat good food. When I went to work, the house fell apart and the food was awful! I discovered some women can balance both well, others can't. I can't and I couldn't cope with the guilt of not always being available for my youngest. Life is easier for everyone when I can be at home.
> 
> It is interesting, having been on both sides of the fence, how working Moms either had this incredible ability to balance, delegate, and keep schedules, or like me, they admitted they sucked at being working Moms and pined for the day when they could focus on just being a Mom.



Sometimes with age comes wisdom.

I wanted my wife to continue working when we got married.
I didn't want a : housewife."

She didn't want to continue working. She wanted to stay at home. We had many arguments over this and I thought for a while that she was not as ambitious as " other women" who worked.
Silly me.
Today we both work from home, and also have employees because we own our very own business.

Proof that creative thinking outside of the proverbial box is what is needed in these cases.
Women need to stop and think for themselves what would make them happy and what would be best for their family in the long run.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

hambone said:


> I wonder if you ask your kids.... Would you rather mom pick you up at school and spend time with mom? Or ride a bus to daycare and spend time there every day?
> 
> What do you think they would say?


I have actually asked my kids this and they enjoy both. They like their friends at daycare/after school care and the toys and games there and then enjoy coming home to be with me and their own things. They go for about an hour after school there (and my son finishes his homework while there) and then come home and have plenty of family time. Win/Win.


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## Kobo (May 13, 2010)

COGypsy said:


> I'm not a man and there's no way in hell I'd get married without a prenup. In fact, I *didn't* get married until the pre-nup was fully signed and executed. That's just common sense, like a will and power of attorney.


Great. Now when you initiate divorce like the other 65% of divorces initiated by women your husband knows where he stands.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

committed4ever said:


> Yep! Got to be prepared for when the marriage ends *before* it begins, as all marriages, of course, do end.


:iagree: with your point [ sarcasm noted.]
Seems to me to be a weird ,overriding kind of logic on this thread.

Wonder if men were to enter into a marriage with that type of mindset, what would be the outcome?
Marriages are supposed to be built to last.

Having a career now does not guarantee that your marriage will work just like being a SAHM does not guarantee that it will work either.

Loving yourself ,choosing the right partner, and setting good boundaries, guarantees a better chance of your marriage , and family surviving.


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## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

I had a pre-nup too, I would recommend anyone who has a considerable amount to lose if divorce ever occurred to do so.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Thank goodness my mother NEVER put any of us in " daycare."

Lol, I don't think daycare even existed back then.
When my mother was at work, our maternal grand mama [ may she rest in peace] took care of us.

We grew up in an extended family system.
Way better than daycare IMO.

Even when my mom and dad divorced, we still had the warmth of our entire family unit to fall back on.
We were a close knit family.
This is common in our culture.


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## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

Daycare was awesome for me, my daycare was in the woods so it was climbing trees with my friends.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

TiggyBlue said:


> Daycare was awesome for me, my daycare was in the woods so it was climbing trees with my friends.


Haha!

Sounds like my daycare.
Everyday we went to the beach or the river for baths.
Maybe that's why I love water.


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## RoseAglow (Apr 11, 2013)

hambone said:


> Well it kind of depends on your values. What do you value most?


To me, "what do you value" is the heart of the question! 



> When I was younger, I defined success by material possessions.
> I wanted my wife working... making more money so we could have more stuff...
> 
> When I got children... my priorities changed. I changed jobs so I didn't have to work nights, weekends, and holidays. Shortly after we had our first child, my wife quit working.
> ...


Your life is much less stressful when your wife didn't work; that's cool. My husband's life wasn't less stressful when I didn't work, and my life certainly wasn't less stressful when I didn't work. 

This summer, for the first time in all our time together, my DH has had to work 10 hour shifts, overnight shifts, and evening hour shifts. This really poses significant challenges, but we will get through it. Everything gets turned around. We are working on strategies for the future so my DH can go back to a normal schedule. Fingers crossed!



> Do you have anything to compare. Have you been a SAHM?


I was a SAHM for a very short time, for the 1st three months of our son's life. 

I could not wait to get back to work. I was on my laptop and checking emails, helping out, when my son was 2 months. I pushed out my maternity leave to 4 months by working "part time" (billable time), but I was ready and geared up to get back into the working world. 



> My values changed as I got older. I saw the value of having my wife at home with the children. She was there when the babies first rolled over... When they said Da da and Ma ma for the fist time. The first time they crawled... first time the walked.
> 
> My wife absolutely LOVES being a mom and a wife.
> 
> When the kids were little... she use to bring me breakfast in bed... with the paper. Turn my shower water on.. lay my clothes out etc. Life is GOOD!


Life is GOOD! *toast*

Your values changed, and your wife shared your values. That is really perfection.

I also got married when I was older- 37 y/o. I am not stressed at the idea that my son's day care teachers might have seen him roll over first, or say his first word. If they did, I saw each milestone very shortly thereafter. My DH and I celebrated each milestone, and our heart grew bigger each time. 

Like with Anon Pink, I think the key is that your wife loved being a SAHM. 

There are a lot of women who would LOVE to be a SAHM but can't, for any myriad of reasons (general finances, infidelity, death of a spouse, spouse lost job, disability of spouse, etc.)

One of my mentors is a project manager who handled a global clinical trial for a major pharmaceutical company. The study we worked on together spans 13 countries across 4 continents. She has won national awards for her work. She is the epitome of a "Successful Career Woman", a "Competent Woman". 

Yet, in her heart, she wishes she were a SAHM. She is supporting her family and her disabled mother. Every Sept is a time of mourning for her- every year reminds her that she is missing the daily, minute-to-minute time with her two kids. Her oldest is starting school this year, and it is breaking her heart because she is acutely aware that can never get that time back.

She is not the only woman I've known in my professional life who would give it all up in a heartbeat if they believed their husband could financially support them.

However, in my small professional world, which is about 90% female, most of us feel differently. 

If I go out of my professional world into the working women within my family and my friends- in addition to being moms, we are teachers, doctors, nurses, accountants, statisticians, actuaries (including one friend in a particularly awesome job doing risk analysis for terrorist attacks in the top 5 major cities, before the Boston Marathon bombs) , financial advisers, authors, mid-wives, highway safety analysts, Human Resources staffers, bankers, Wall Street executives- the list goes on and on!

About a quarter of the women in the roles listed above were SAHMs when their kids were pre-school, and got back into the workforce later on. The rest of us never really left the workforce.

One of my cousins got to age 38, with no reliable man in sight, and went to a sperm bank. She emptied out her savings for her one shot at having a baby (well, her one shot without having to sleep around.) Now, at age 43, has a gorgeous, smart, wonderful 5 year old. She is a single mom who is also an elementary school teacher.

I just don't believe in a 'one size fits all' when it comes to chasing down one's happiness, working, and parenthood. 

The question comes down to, IMO, what you asked originally. What are your values? What you going to do with your one, gorgeous, singular, precious, beautiful, Life on Earth? Make sure you (and your partner, if you have one, are on the same page and) go for it!


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## RoseAglow (Apr 11, 2013)

hambone said:


> I wonder if you ask your kids.... Would you rather mom pick you up at school and spend time with mom? Or ride a bus to daycare and spend time there every day?
> 
> What do you think they would say?


This made me smile, only because my son LOVES school buses! Every night we sing "The Wheels on the Bus Go Round and Round" and his favorite days at day care are when he gets to play on the church's bus. But, he isn't quite 3, so these things amuse him.

However, getting to the point of your question: I drop him off at day care each day, and most days (when he works a normal schedule) my DH picks him up. If my husband continues with his union, he will pick up my son from work most of the time.

So, it's not either/or. 

As of now, my son tells me most mornings: "I hate going to school!" and, when my DH or I show up most afternoons, he is having fun and says "I don't want to go home!"


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

Wiserforit said:


> It was feminists denigrating Stay at Home Moms, not men.


In some cases it is the husband of the SAHW/M who is "denigrator-in-chief".

My husband was very disappointed at the birth of every daughter. He wanted sons. And he made sure we all knew that he viewed women as easily deceived, inferior, and not allowed by God to ever be leaders of anyone but children.

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, my adult daughters are all well educated and well paid professionals who intend to remain in the workforce when (and if) they have children. I think that a big part of the reason they pursued and succeeded educationally was to prove daddy WRONG! Girls are just as capable, smart, valuable, and precious as boys.

Now I work outside the home and H bemoans the lack of home cooked meals and his increased responsibilities on the homefront (driving children around, doing his own laundry, etc). I'll never go back. 

On TAM I've noted fairly frequent disrespectful judgments on the part of husbands toward their SAHW/M. It is a thankless job IME.


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## RoseAglow (Apr 11, 2013)

Caribbean Man said:


> Thank goodness my mother NEVER put any of us in " daycare."
> 
> Lol, I don't think daycare even existed back then.
> When my mother was at work, our maternal grand mama [ may she rest in peace] took care of us.
> ...


All the women in my and my DH's FOO, except my sister, were (My sister doesn't have any children) aghast that we were going to put our son in day care.

In fact, my SIL and my MIL, independent of me and DH, spent a lot of time and care creating a schedule, where they would take care of our son, so he wouldn't have to do into Day Care. 

My mom was horrified at the idea that her only grand child would go into Day care.

I am forever grateful that my SIL and my MIL were able to gracefully accept that we declined their offer of help.

My SIL used to work for a day care when she was a teenager, and this drove her fear for our son. She is a wonderful Aunt and Nurse now, in her mid 30s. I would never, ever, ever, put my son in a Day care that hired teenagers as the primary care givers.

My mom has now seen the Day Care my son has attended for nearly 3 years. He is thriving. He is learning manners, numbers, letters, potty training, cleaning up, sharing, cooperation, obedience, sleep training (for naps, anyway!), trust, other languages, art, and more. She is a believer, now.

This is a bit heretical (here is my contribution to the Mommy Wars!!), but I think my son is actually learning more than I and my sister did, 35 years ago, with a very educated SAHM. 

In my rural neighborhood, there are SAHMs but mostly there are Working Moms. The kids with SAHMs mostly stay within their own family, which is a huge change from my own childhood, where the neighborhood kids played together. It is very clear that a big cultural change has occurred- maybe 10-20 years ago there were a bunch of kids running around the neighborhood with SAHMs.

All of this to say- I believe good day cares are a boon. Day care standards have changed dramatically, even over the last 10 years. There is little to fear from a good day care IMO (although always, no matter what, trust but verify!)


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

ReformedHubby said:


> I had to laugh at your post. So many replies referenced how would a SAHM support herself if her husband died. Hasn't anybody heard of term life insurance? A twenty year policy is fairly reasonable.


I mentioned it ....Very Reasonable!! We pay less than $300 a year for a policy for $300,000 on him... probably should have gotten higher.....figured that was good enough..at the time... In effect till he is about 60...by then, even now we have a good amount saved in free cash...plus our house & property is in the free & clear..

If desperate, could always take advantage of those newer "Reverse Mortages"-I think I'd have to be starving to do that though.... We really want one of our children to get the house & Property....keeping it in the family... 

* **** I can not express how deeply I feel and respect the MEN LIVING TODAY who embrace these older fashioned lifestyles...for one....these men enable the women they love to have that CHOICE ....showing the highest of honor and care to their wives for allowing them to live with what fulfills them/ their brand of happiness/ the desires of their heart ....this type of man does not look down on a certain class of woman, but looks beyond that...

But of course she needs to honor HIM by doing her part in this...taking care of that home and attending to his needs, and their children....so when he comes home, he can relax...be King for awhile.... 

My husband has always given me this, he has told me many a times...he prefers me in the home...He wants that full responsibility....he feels this is his role as a MAN, to Protect and Provide for his family..I swear it is ingrained in him... ...a man could not treat me better...and he has always always always praised my contribution...

What is very funny about us is... I feel his JOB is 10 times worse, and I greatly admire him for all he does for us... (of course he loves this)....then he'll tell me it would all fall apart without me, he'd be lost...saying I am the brains of the outfit, ...he makes me feel like I am the most valuable woman on the face of the earth, in his eyes, I AM....and I give him ...MY happiness in return for that brand of Loving me, supporting me like that. 

A few days ago, before this thread...ran into an old friend at a county fair... she was always a SAHM...great with her kids, thrived in the home......she started talking about her husband...some marital issues there...and then was going on how he is trying to push her out the door to work...he doesn't care how she feels, she said this a few times...how he is belittling her.......now I don't know much about them or if she spends too much $$ or what all... but I couldn't help but stand there thinking...I am so thankful I am not in this woman's shoes...that my husband is not cornering me like that...made to feel less.. or "what is wrong with you -you need to do this, get with the program, everyone else is working".....

Then contrast this with another conversation I had today ....talking to any older woman I've known for yrs.......with her 1st husband she worked full time, he cheated....her old Bf came into the picture, married her 2 weeks after the divorce, he had a decent job , he told her she didn't have to work...that he preferred her stay home ...but it was HER choice...no pressure, just how he felt...another Provide and Protect man for you there....

She quit & hasn't worked for 40 yrs...I asked her if she regretted this...or ....if she could live her life over again....would she have went for a career or kept that pretty good job she had ....she said she would have done it all the same...She had time for her son, her hobbies, her singing, some volunteering, activities in her church..and organizing Her high school Reunions...it's been a good life...she has cancer now..but I felt this deep respect come over me for the man she married hearing her story. 

Now my husband....He would also support me in ANYTHING I wanted to set my hands too...if I wanted to go to college to be a Sex therapist (I'd LOVE it !)....or take night classes for Photography...he'd be my #1 fan cheering me on......

Can I say... there is beauty in being accepted for what we are, where we are.....even without a career, or social status...but in how we have affected the lives of those around us.. 

When I read this saying on a Portrait in a Book store yrs ago, I copied it & stuffed it in my purse...I wanted to place my own picture of memories shared with our children...and place it in a frame hanging it in our living room...to remember these Stay at Home Mom days of pure Joy....I pass it every day ..sometimes I stop and look, I see my now 2 teen sons...riding on my back as little boys laughing... and me with a huge  on my face enjoying my life as just a Mother of children.


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## Coffee Amore (Dec 15, 2011)

hambone said:


> I wonder if you ask your kids.... Would you rather mom pick you up at school and spend time with mom? Or ride a bus to daycare and spend time there every day?
> 
> What do you think they would say?


Depends on what kind of home you come back to. For many children, it's not a Leaver It To Beaver clean middle class home with wholesome food cooked from scratch in a safe neighborhood. Some children get more stimulation, more attention, more teaching in a quality daycare than they do at home with their parents. I've visited some HeadStart preschool programs for children from low income homes and I was pleasantly surprised by the programs. There's quite a bit of enrichment compared to what I think they get at home. 

My kids have always been picked up by a family members, but I don't knock daycare for those who have to use it. There are some great daycare programs out there.


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## RoseAglow (Apr 11, 2013)

Blonde said:


> Girls are just as capable, smart, valuable, and precious as boys.


In my eyes, this is Feminism, encapsulated in one clear and succinct sentence.

Please note- this does not say that Girls are MORE than boys. It doesn't say they are the SAME as boys. It says that girls are equally as valuable and as precious as boys.

Love it!


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

My nieces loved daycare. And sometimes the center would have overnights on the weekends. I guess as a way to provide babystting services for the parents. My nieces would opt for these "parties" even when my sister and her husband had no plans to go out.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Caribbean Man said:


> Thank goodness my mother NEVER put any of us in " daycare."
> 
> Lol, I don't think daycare even existed back then.
> When my mother was at work, our maternal grand mama [ may she rest in peace] took care of us.
> ...


:smthumbup: Indeed, the extended clan system works very well in our respective cultures. Your Carribean culture and my Southeast Asian culture. Maybe because we're both tropical people


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## imhiswifey (Aug 16, 2013)

My kids were/are not in daycare, they are both in school now going into year 1 and year 3 (grade 1 and 3 equivalent). I cannot believe it!!!! I might start working longer hours, but I still intend on picking up my boys from school each day. If one or both of them want to go to a friend's place I will drop them off. 

Sometimes my husband will surprise them and pick them up too. We don't complain as there will be a time when they don't want us to do this, so we are cherishing these moments as they happen


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I mentioned it ....Very Reasonable!! We pay less than $300 a year for a policy for $300,000 on him... probably should have gotten higher.....figured that was good enough..at the time... In effect till he is about 60...by then, even now we have a good amount saved in free cash...plus our house & property is in the free & clear..
> 
> If desperate, could always take advantage of those newer "Reverse Mortages"-I think I'd have to be starving to do that though.... We really want one of our children to get the house & Property....keeping it in the family...
> 
> ...


Appreciate your post, as usual.
One of the first things I did after mariage was to get a proper life insurance policy for both of us just in case anything happened.
I remember telling my wife that no matter what happened to me or to us in life, neither of us should have o suffer financially because of it.

I saw it as MY responsibility.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

john_lord_b3 said:


> :smthumbup: Indeed, the extended clan system works very well in our respective cultures. Your Carribean culture and my Southeast Asian culture. Maybe because we're both tropical people


It definitely helps inculcate family values from an early age.
It stamps your identity into your child forever.
The first five years of a child are the most impressionable.


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## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby (Nov 7, 2011)

Your title is funny. Not everyone thinks the same. We are all individual people with different likes, views, and hobbies. 

How other people live their married life is their own business, not mine. I focus on my own marriage and how I can make my own husband happy. I certainly do not ever like being told what to do or how to live by anyone. When I first married my husband, I got a lot of grief for being a sahm. I personally don't care what others think and their thoughts never bothered me.

It is nice that you are happy. Many couples are. I'm happy with the way our household works as well and so is my husband.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

john_lord_b3 said:


> :smthumbup: Indeed, the extended clan system works very well in our respective cultures. Your Carribean culture and my Southeast Asian culture. Maybe because we're both tropical people


It isn't just Southeast Asian nor Caribbean cultures, guys. I was born and raised in Michigan. No Asian, no Caribbean blood in me lol.My mom was a SAHM until, I think, I was about 8-9 years old. When she went to work, grandma watched us. When grandma wasn't able anymore, then my aunt did. Then, a family friend who we viewed as a grandmother figure. We never went to daycare.

My kids have never been in daycare. I have heard both good and bad stories about daycare, in general. However, I also recognize that people do what works FOR THEM. For some, it is daycare. For others, it is extended family.


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## hambone (Mar 30, 2013)

Caribbean Man said:


> Appreciate your post, as usual.
> One of the first things I did after mariage was to get a proper life insurance policy for both of us just in case anything happened.
> I remember telling my wife that no matter what happened to me or to us in life, neither of us should have o suffer financially because of it.
> 
> I saw it as MY responsibility.


Absolutely. And term is the way to go because it's so cheap.


But, do you have disability insurance? That's even more important because you have about a 8 or 10 times greater chance of becoming disabled. 

And, financially, being disabled is far worse than dying. When you're disabled you have to be cared for... You'll have more doctor visits and medications and you have to be fed and clothed and cared for. 

So, as important as life insurance is when you have a young family... disability insurance is even more important.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

hambone said:


> Absolutely. And term is the way to go because it's so cheap.
> 
> 
> But, do you have disability insurance? That's even more important because you have about a 8 or 10 times greater chance of becoming disabled.
> ...


Yes we do have disability insurance because we own a business.
Nobody has our back.
We have both national insurance and private insurance.


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## hambone (Mar 30, 2013)

Caribbean Man said:


> Yes we do have disability insurance because we own a business.
> Nobody has our back.
> We have both national insurance and private insurance.


Sounds like you've got your bases covered.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Maricha75 said:


> It isn't just Southeast Asian nor Caribbean cultures, guys. I was born and raised in Michigan. No Asian, no Caribbean blood in me lol.My mom was a SAHM until, I think, I was about 8-9 years old. When she went to work, grandma watched us. When grandma wasn't able anymore, then my aunt did. Then, a family friend who we viewed as a grandmother figure. We never went to daycare.
> 
> My kids have never been in daycare. I have heard both good and bad stories about daycare, in general. However, I also recognize that people do what works FOR THEM. For some, it is daycare. For others, it is extended family.


:smthumbup:
I am sure there are advantages and dis-advantages of both approaches, be it a complete independence vs interdependence to clan/extended family. It's all about being allowed to have a choice.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> *Quotes of Happyhouswife7*
> I guess you can say we are in a "old fashioned" relationship as far as gender roles go. I stay home and do all the cooking and cleaning, and the majority of the child care
> 
> 
> My husband opens doors for me, handles all the heavy "man work" and treats me like a lady. In return I respect him and try hard to make him feel like a leader and a man. My question is why don't other wives try to do the same?



Your old fashion marriage is a success; who can argue with that?

What you described is my preference. However, *success in a marriage is not dependant on such limited criteria as SAHM and the traditional “old fashion” relationships.* Because there are so many variables and changes in a marriage you can not pin success in marriage down to a limited formula.

With all the variables and changes in marriage I would like to add one other factor that can also be important in a marriage. Here is that factor

Both partners making their desires and dedication to the marriage and children as number one at all times. If you falter then IMMEDIATELY get back those desires and dedications.

There will be times that some marriages cannot have a SAHM, the man may not always be able to “handle all the fiancés” and do “all the handy work around the house”. That is when the couple can use their desires and dedications to adjust to the circumstances.

In my marriage of more than 40 years we have done both. first the “old fashion” method, then my wife went to work, now we are back at the old fashion style.

HappyHouswife7,
I hope that your marriage stays as rich as you have described and am so glad that you both are contented, considerate, and respectful. *Just remember that you have 40+ more years of marriage to go and that you may have to adapt to changes and variables that you have not encountered yet. Leave the door open in your mind for other methods*


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## COGypsy (Aug 12, 2010)

hambone said:


> I got a pre-nup when I got married.
> 
> It did not specify the terms of the divorce.
> 
> What it did was document what I had when we got married and what she had when we got married.


Exactly, ours documented assets going into the marriage and how family inheritances and property would be handled - and was applicable whether we divorced or died. Pre-nups can apply or at least influence outcomes when the marriage ends for any reason.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

hambone said:


> Absolutely. And term is the way to go because it's so cheap.
> 
> 
> But, do you have disability insurance? That's even more important because you have about a 8 or 10 times greater chance of becoming disabled.
> ...


My husband is a cop. Nobody will insure him for disability. Too risky so I'm back to I still need to be able to support us should he be unable to work.


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## hambone (Mar 30, 2013)

Mavash. said:


> My husband is a cop. Nobody will insure him for disability. Too risky so I'm back to I still need to be able to support us should he be unable to work.


I understand.

I had health issues and I couldn't get life insurance OR disability insurance other than what my employer offered to all employees.

The good news is that I got to the point that I no longer needed life insurance pretty quickly.


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

Blonde said:


> On TAM I've noted fairly frequent disrespectful judgments on the part of husbands toward their SAHW/M. It is a thankless job IME.


Then quote them if it is so frequent. Should take you just a few minutes to find a number of examples if you are telling the truth. Right here in this thread we can see examples of pejorative terminology used to describe stay at home moms as dependent and submissive. 



> In some cases it is the husband of the SAHW/M who is "denigrator-in-chief".
> 
> My husband was very disappointed at the birth of every daughter. He wanted sons. And he made sure we all knew that he viewed women as easily deceived, inferior, and not allowed by God to ever be leaders of anyone but children.


Yes, of course. This kind of idiotic belief is less dangerous than the insideous, deceptive behavior of feminists because it is so obviously stupid. 

The inculcation of victimology, gender war mentality, and belief every woman has to "do something" to gain equality instead of being born with it is more difficult to see as harmful. 



> I think that a big part of the reason they pursued and succeeded educationally was to prove daddy WRONG! Girls are just as capable, smart, valuable, and precious as boys.


So you married a bigot, and the "fix" is a 20 year journey of daughters attempting to prove their father wrong? Instead of the wife addressing it before they are even born? :scratchhead:

The vast majority of parents love their children and want them to succeed whether they are boys or girls. A person whose life is driven by needing to prove their parent(s) wrong is living with a curse. 

There isn't anything to prove, nothing requiring recent history to see that. Joan of Arc was leading men in battle in the 1400's. 

Seems to me someone (you) dropped the ball many years ago by accepting this attitude in the first place, but then allowing your daughters to be exposed to it their whole lives. It is abuse as far as I am concerned. 

Why did you allow it? Why allow a thankless marriage?


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## mablenc (Feb 26, 2013)

Blonde said:


> In some cases it is the husband of the SAHW/M who is "denigrator-in-chief".
> 
> My husband was very disappointed at the birth of every daughter. He wanted sons. And he made sure we all knew that he viewed women as easily deceived, inferior, and not allowed by God to ever be leaders of anyone but children.
> .


My husband was congratulated many times for "getting it right the first time" when we had our son. I was blown away by these comments and so was he. We just wanted a healthy baby.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

mablenc said:


> My husband was congratulated many times for "getting it right the first time" when we had our son. I was blown away by these comments and so was he. We just wanted a healthy baby.


In many Asian countries including mine, the birth of a son is a great relief for the clan, because it ensures that there are more male clan members to preserve the clan name and inheritance. It is not to say that daughters are less valued though. It's just that our clan name and inheritance (due to Muslim customs) cannot be passed through the maternal line. This is the norm for centuries.

But I assure you, this is a South East Asian Muslim tradition, not misogyny. We believe that both girl and boys are precious, deserving of love, guidance, education, and future happiness. Proof being, our 5th President, Madame Megawati, is a woman, and the current Managing Director of the World Bank Group is Mrs. Sri Mulyani, our former Minister of Finance.


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## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

I'm often enough accused of being a man-hating feminist soaked in "obvious modern misandry" and yet - I'm currently a SAHM. To be honest, I do know "submissive" and "dependent" SAHMs, and I know some who are independent, free-thinking, etc. From what I've noted the difference seems to be not that they are SAHMs, but -why- they are SAHMs.

There's a vast difference between it being a choice because with your husband you've mutually decided its what's best for you/him/the kids and that he understands the responsibility that comes with that decision (as the OP's husband seems to) and that choice being a foregone conclusion because "that's what married women are supposed to do" and you being expected to foster that decision regardless of what else ends up happening. (IE if your husband is under-employed for whatever reason, you getting a job is still "wrong.") The latter I saw heavily propagated in the sub-culture of some local church denominations. Backed up naturally, by Bible quotes about how women "should remain silent" and "should have no authority over a man." (And thus shouldn't work, as they may have to violate that tenant.) 

That if anything is what inflames some of my sense, feminist or otherwise. It isn't the decision it's the lack of choice. It's the perpetuated idea that every family, every couple can and should make the same decisions in their lives. Which honestly - the original post kind of implies as well. Ultimately, I think people should figure out what works for them, outside of all the labeling and guilt. And should a time come when the status quo is no longer working, they should be able to re-examine the status quo without outside people telling them how "wrong" it is. 

As to how people sometimes seem to demean SAHMs, I can go and search through and find specific quotes, but I can highlight some ideas I've seen expressed more than once:

- When a SAHM watches the kids it's "watching the kids", during the times that husband watches the kids its "babysitting." This is a label used by husbands, other male posters, and hell even sometimes other female posters. Maybe that's semantics, but there's a heavy implication there, mothers watching the kids is natural, when a man has to, it isn't really worth his time, it's a chore and a burden. At least that's how it comes across when I read it worded that way. 

- Whenever there is a disagreement about anything in the relationship, if the wife is a SAHM, one of the first suggestions is to "cut her off from the money" to "teach her a lesson." Therefore, the SAHMs position is -not- as valuable as the husbands, she is an simply employee whose "wages" can be withheld at whim without recourse. 

- Sometimes you'll get into the specific accusations that unless a SAHM does X, Y, or Z, like poster 1's wife does, she isn't a "real" SAHM and isn't "pulling her weight." 

No one implies this kind of thing about working people. IE - "If you aren't plowing the back forty without your bare hands, you aren't even worth it, you should meet my brother who does this every day without fail, American men don't know how easy they have it." No one would say that, because it sounds ridiculous, but I've heard similiar statements made about American SAHMs.

- Posters male and female alike are quick to label a SAHM a "leech" or "mooch" if an OP mentions financial difficulties. That she just "sees you as a wallet." Insults and character assassination.

The digs may be more subtle, and may seem less "insidious and deceptive" but they are there. Feminism and "gender war mentality" isn't the be and end all of attacks against SAHMs. The attitude revealed by TAMers sometimes shows you don't have to be a feminist to have a bad attitude about it, even if that attitude comes from different ideals.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Starstarfish said:


> I'm often enough accused of being a man-hating feminist soaked in "obvious modern misandry" and yet - I'm currently a SAHM. To be honest, I do know "submissive" and "dependent" SAHMs, and I know some who are independent, free-thinking, etc. From what I've noted the difference seems to be not that they are SAHMs, but -why- they are SAHMs.
> 
> There's a vast difference between it being a choice because with your husband you've mutually decided its what's best for you/him/the kids and that he understands the responsibility that comes with that decision (as the OP's husband seems to) and that choice being a foregone conclusion because "that's what married women are supposed to do" and you being expected to foster that decision regardless of what else ends up happening. (IE if your husband is under-employed for whatever reason, you getting a job is still "wrong.") The latter I saw heavily propagated in the sub-culture of some local church denominations. Backed up naturally, by Bible quotes about how women "should remain silent" and "should have no authority over a man." (And thus shouldn't work, as they may have to violate that tenant.)
> 
> ...



Very thoughtful reply, I enjoyed it very much. One thing I have seen be an issue is the inherent balance of power that happens in a stay at home situation because a stay at home has nobody objective to evaluate what they do. When you work you have a boss and he/she gives you objective evaluations as to how you're doing your job. A stay at home doesn't have that so it often ends up with the working partner deciding if the stay at home is living up to their end, but this fosters am employer/employee relationship instead of a partner relationship. If the house is clean to the stay at home's standards but not to the working spouse's standards people will often assume the working spouse is correct and the stay at home isn't living up to their part. Why does the working spouse get to decide the standard unless they're the boss? I had this with my ex, he felt that since he made the money he got to set the standards for me. If a sahm is cheating the hb is always advised to cut off her money but if the hb of a sahm is cheating can she cut off his money? If they were equals the answer would be yes, but clearly it's not. This is an issue for sahd's too; one of my good friends at work has her husband at home with the kids so i know this is an issue for them, in that she tells me she doesn't think he always holds up his end. .If they're equals thought does she get to decide that?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

100% agree with you Starfish.


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## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

> My husband was congratulated many times for "getting it right the first time" when we had our son. I was blown away by these comments and so was he. We just wanted a healthy baby.







john_lord_b3 said:


> In many Asian countries including mine, the birth of a son is a great relief for the clan, because it ensures that there are more male clan members to preserve the clan name and inheritance. It is not to say that daughters are less valued though. It's just that our clan name and inheritance (due to Muslim customs) cannot be passed through the maternal line. This is the norm for centuries.
> 
> But I assure you, this is a South East Asian Muslim tradition, not misogyny. We believe that both girl and boys are precious, deserving of love, guidance, education, and future happiness. Proof being, our 5th President, Madame Megawati, is a woman, and the current Managing Director of the World Bank Group is Mrs. Sri Mulyani, our former Minister of Finance.



But saying it's tradition doesn't make the message any less potent.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

TiggyBlue said:


> But saying it's tradition doesn't make the message any less potent.


My point being, in our country, both boys and girls are free to be whatever they want to be, and some of our girls actually grew up to be great leaders. They don't need to depend on clan name to earn their successes.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

Wiserforit said:


> Why did you allow it? Why allow a thankless marriage?


 Yep, shame on ME for expecting a person who professed to be a Christian to resemble Christ and for believing a load of theological malarky about a woman's role...

I could spend a lot of time and energy defending myself and finding examples of the way SAHM/W are put down *by their husbands* and considered blood sucking leeches on TAM but I'm not gonna waste my time because your perspective is so androcentric that you won't hear... 

Same for your "Liker" John Lord who does not see the massive problems and fallout with routine cultural rejection of female babies and privileging of males from birth to death




> Originally Posted by john_lord_b3 View Post
> In many Asian countries including mine, the birth of a son is a great relief for the clan, because it ensures that there are more male clan members to preserve the clan name and inheritance. It is not to say that daughters are less valued though. It's just that our clan name and inheritance (due to Muslim customs) cannot be passed through the maternal line. This is the norm for centuries.
> 
> But I assure you, this is a South East Asian Muslim tradition, not misogyny.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

Starstarfish said:


> As to how people sometimes seem to demean SAHMs, I can go and search through and find specific quotes, but I can highlight some ideas I've seen expressed more than once:
> 
> - When a SAHM watches the kids it's "watching the kids", during the times that husband watches the kids its "babysitting." This is a label used by husbands, other male posters, and hell even sometimes other female posters. Maybe that's semantics, but there's a heavy implication there, mothers watching the kids is natural, when a man has to, it isn't really worth his time, it's a chore and a burden. At least that's how it comes across when I read it worded that way.
> 
> ...


^^There ya go! :iagree:

Hadn't read this before my reply but I'll be watching (with low expectations) how wfi responds.


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## hambone (Mar 30, 2013)

Blonde said:


> Yep, shame on ME for expecting a person who professed to be a Christian to resemble Christ and for believing a load of theological malarky about a woman's role...
> 
> I could spend a lot of time and energy defending myself and finding examples of the way SAHM/W are put down *by their husbands* and considered blood sucking leeches on TAM but I'm not gonna waste my time because your perspective is so androcentric that you won't hear...
> 
> Same for your "Liker" John Lord who does not see the massive problems and fallout with routine cultural rejection of female babies and privileging of males from birth to death


You sound so bitter. Why? 

Have you not heard that Momma's tend to be closer to their sons and Dad's closer to their daughters. That daddy's and daughter's have a "special" relationship?

I certainly do with my daughter...

Where you close to your dad?


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

hambone,

You can read my personal testimony in the Private section if you want. I'm not going to get into it here.

I'm completely over bitterness r/t FOO. They did the best they could with what they had.

But I still deal day to day with a patriarchal man who quotes Bible verses @ women be silent, wives submit, children obey, attends and evangelical church weekly taking the children with him, and is also verbally abusive at times and has a history of chronic marriage vow breaking.

So when I read a disrespectful, harsh, judgmental, blame feminism and blame ME post like that posted below, I probably sound harsh but I don't FEEL bitter. IME a harsh reply is the ONLY thing that gets anywhere with someone like wfi who resembles my husband in some very unflattering ways... ("Idiot" is one of my H's favorite character assassinations)



Wiserforit said:


> Then quote them if it is so frequent. Should take you just a few minutes to find a number of examples if you are telling the truth. Right here in this thread we can see examples of pejorative terminology used to describe stay at home moms as dependent and submissive.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Blonde said:


> .
> 
> Same for your "Liker" John Lord who does not see the massive problems and fallout with routine cultural rejection of female babies and privileging of males from birth to death


Has there ever been a female president of the USA?

Well what John Lord is saying is that in his country, which you seem to think practises " cultural rejection of female babies "[ and whatever that is meant to imply ]
there has been a FEMALE HEAD OF STATE, and there is nothing stopping either a baby boy or girl from achieving their dreams.


Do we need to be so " politically correct " that parents aren't allowed now to have their preferences?
I personally preferred a daughter , what does that make me beside a father?
So if a man prefers a son , how does that make him a misogynist?

Obviously your argument against his culture seems baseless to me , because as far as I can remember , the USA has NEVER had a female head of state in its 200+ years of history.

I think its a dangerous thing to make sweeping allegations against a culture simply because we don't understand it.

Pakistan & India have also had female heads of state, more than once ,even though most western feminist activist brand them as anti women or misogynistic .


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

I lived in his country CM.

We were missionaries there.

When I had a baby girl in the hospital there, my husband said to me, "YOU got YOURSELF another girl" and did not visit me in the hospital anymore until it was time to pick me up two days later.

In his country, if the father is a citizen married to a foreigner, the children get to be a citizen. But if the mother is a citizen married to a foreigner, the children do not get to be a citizen.

In his country, I and the children were on my husband's visa so when my husband was engaged in marriage killing behavior and I wanted to take the children and GO, H told me "YOU can leave but I'm keeping the children". By Indonesian rules he could do that and I was too naive and traumatized to realize that I could go to the American Embassy with that. THANK GOD I AM AN AMERICAN! and I will never be crossing any borders again with my husband into any oppressive countries with minor children. I felt sooooo trapped. 

In his country there are HUGE prostitution districts blocks and blocks and blocks... and when my husband took our 5 yod down into the prostitution district he was told she would sell well. In his country parents sell their daughters to the sex trade. Guess girls are good for *something*


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## hambone (Mar 30, 2013)

Blonde said:


> hambone,
> 
> You can read my personal testimony in the Private section if you want. I'm not going to get into it here.
> 
> ...


How would you compare your husband's sphere of influence... with the influence of the feminists of the 70's and the 80's?


Also, do you see yourself as bearing any responsibility for the situation you are in? Why or why not?


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

hambone said:


> How would you compare your husband's sphere of influence... with the influence of the feminists of the 70's and the 80's?
> 
> 
> Also, do you see yourself as bearing any responsibility for the situation you are in? Why or why not?


I bear responsibility because I bought hook line and sinker a certain theology that the husband is the leader and the wife is to be submissive and I lived that with all my heart for 22 years of my married life. (Been married 31 years in Oct)

Not sure if this thread is the right place for that discussion other than that I might have posted something very like OP posted when I was 25. Now I am older and wiser and learned a lot of lessons the very long hard painful way. 

Blogged during that journey: A Wife’s Submission
Lessons Learned in the Crucible of Marriage


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Blonde said:


> I lived in his country CM.
> 
> We were missionaries there.
> 
> ...


I have friends who lived and worked in South East Asia, not as missionaries, but as professionals.
Right now, I have a female friend who is a corporate lawyer , married with kids living and working in Kuala Lampur, Malaysia.
I think much of what you are saying is projecting from a position of hurt and trauma.

Much of what you have just posted about Indonesia and prostitution is no different to any other country in the wold, even the USA. It is just done differently.
Hell, in Thailand, they dress little boys as girls and sell them as prostitutes. 
Guess where the bulk of "sex tourists" come from?
The driving force behind prostitution has never been misogyny, that is another falsehood perpetrated by western feminist. The driving force behind it has always been MONEY, or lack thereof.

And regarding the marital , separation and divorce laws in Indonesia , I don't understand why you assume that they should be the same as in the USA.
Even in the USA, those laws differ from state to state.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Blonde said:


> I lived in his country CM.
> 
> We were missionaries there.
> 
> ...


Firstly, I am sorry to hear about your situation and past history. Knowing what you've been through, I understand that your Indonesian experience is not a cheerful one, and it makes you view all Indonesians through the image of your husband (makes us all "guilty for being Indonesians"). And I understand that you won't see our country as a favorable place to raise your daughter, knowing how "oppressive" it was for you.

By the way, that huge prostitution district you're telling us about, it's against the law, not legal, and no, we don't think it's a good idea. It's never a good idea everywhere. If I went to Holland to visit my relatives, and see the Red Light district, I will accept that prostitution exists, but I surely will not consider _the entire country_ as a place for prostitution. I hope I could expect the same courtesy from our fellow TAM members.

But I will respectfully stop conversing further with you, knowing that this conversation brings back painful memories for you. Peace.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

Caribbean Man said:


> I think much of what you are saying is projecting from a position of hurt and trauma.


^^That is dismissive CM. 

Yes I was hurt and traumatized and male privilege laws and attitudes in Indonesia contributed to that hurt and trauma.

Right now, today, decades later and safe in the USA, I do not feel hurt and traumatized by those laws and that culture. 



> Hell, in Thailand, they dress little boys as girls and sell them as prostitutes.


Pity those poor boys too. But it's far more dangerous to be born female. It's a Girl Film: When being born female is a matter of life and death


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

john_lord_b3 said:


> But I will respectfully stop conversing further with you, knowing that this conversation brings back painful memories for you. Peace.


John Lord,

I want to commend you for being respectful. There are many things about the Indonesian people which I found very precious and eye opening (even though I did not feel safe in your country as a Female). My neighbors were content with very little material possessions and returning to the US was a shock re:materialism. That was a positive life lesson which has stuck with me since my time there.

JFTR Those memories are no longer painful. It happened in the late 1980's and I have gone through much healing and recovery since then.

Your friend wfi's post was mildly triggering because his communication style reminds me of my husband. But, other than that, I am perfectly calm and feeling no angst, anger, nor bitterness. I would describe my feelings regarding unjust, exploitative treatment of women and children as "passionate".


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Blonde said:


> ^^That is dismissive CM.
> 
> Yes I was hurt and traumatized and male privilege laws and attitudes in Indonesia contributed to that hurt and trauma.
> 
> ...


It's not meant to dismiss how you feel.
So my apologies.
But I think its dangerous to paint an entire culture in a negative light because of your personal experience with a husband that was not even part of that culture.
Remember both of you were missionaries in a strange land and different culture.

I tend to be very respectful of other people's culture even though I don't fully agree with it.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

The OP posted a controversial topic and ran and hasn't returned. 

:bsflag:


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## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

Not to argue, but that seems to be a common theme on the board, CM. Though generally, it's men making assumptions about "American culture" and "American women" because of an experience with an ex(es). 

Blaming all of us for some of us is a bad idea, regardless of who the "us" is.


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

Observe again not one bona-fide example was used here. Just assertions, whereas in this very thread I have pointed out where a female poster used the "dependent" and "submissive" pejoratives _because a woman is a stay at home mom_. I don't even have to leave this thread to find the examples! 



Starstarfish said:


> I'm often enough accused of being a man-hating feminist soaked in "obvious modern misandry" and yet - I'm currently a SAHM.


So what? Do you see me saying working woman = feminist? Or that stay at home moms can't be feminists? No.



> - When a SAHM watches the kids it's "watching the kids", during the times that husband watches the kids its "babysitting." This is a label used by husbands, other male posters, and hell even sometimes other female posters. Maybe that's semantics, but there's a heavy implication there, mothers watching the kids is natural, when a man has to, it isn't really worth his time, it's a chore and a burden. At least that's how it comes across when I read it worded that way.


  See, this is in part why using an actual example is necessary. You are saying the SAME PERSON uses different terms depending upon whether it is the man or the woman watching the kids? It is possible, but I have never seen it and you need to show us examples like I have _in this very thread_. 



> - Whenever there is a disagreement about anything in the relationship, if the wife is a SAHM, one of the first suggestions is to "cut her off from the money" to "teach her a lesson." Therefore, the SAHMs position is -not- as valuable as the husbands, she is an simply employee whose "wages" can be withheld at whim without recourse.


Clearly fallacious. By corollary then, women who withhold household duties are proving that the husband is less valuable? 




> - Sometimes you'll get into the specific accusations that unless a SAHM does X, Y, or Z, like poster 1's wife does, she isn't a "real" SAHM and isn't "pulling her weight."


:scratchhead: If she is a stay at home mom she absolutely DOES have specific duties just as the man who is working does. If he doesn't work, he isn't pulling his weight. 



> No one implies this kind of thing about working people. IE - "If you aren't plowing the back forty without your bare hands, you aren't even worth it, you should meet my brother who does this every day without fail, American men don't know how easy they have it." No one would say that, because it sounds ridiculous, but I've heard similiar statements made about American SAHMs.


Nobody says such a stupid thing because it's stupid. WTF.

You did not show us one example of someone saying stay at home mom's don't know how easy they have it. I do recall a thread where a husband was working a full time job and had a two-hour commute. His stay at home mom was not cleaning the house. That one was lazy. She deserved to be called so. 



> - Posters male and female alike are quick to label a SAHM a "leech" or "mooch" if an OP mentions financial difficulties. That she just "sees you as a wallet." Insults and character assassination.


See again how you fail to provide any examples, which is important because there definitely ARE leaches, both men and women, who do not work and do not contribute in the home. 

There are DEFINITELY women who see their men as only a wallet. You were supposed to be showing me examples of where stay at home mom's were viewed pejoratively by their husbands _because they are stay at home moms_. 


The truth is *you couldn't find any*.


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

Blonde said:


> Yep, shame on ME for expecting a person who professed to be a Christian to resemble Christ and for believing a load of theological malarky about a woman's role...


What kind of convoluted evasion is this? You married a bigot. You accepted his bigotry towards your daughters. You are clearly responsible for this, but have zero acknowledgement of your responsibility.

Modern Christians in general do not accept two-thousand year old attitudes about women being prohibited from speaking in church. If you belong to some whacked-out fringe group, then whose responsibility is that? It's YOURS. Don't tell me you have to do what a religion you CHOOSE says. 

So yes, shame on you for not accepting responsibility. Start doing so. 



> I could spend a lot of time and energy defending myself and finding examples of the way SAHM/W are put down *by their husbands* and considered blood sucking leeches on TAM but I'm not gonna waste my time because your perspective is so androcentric that you won't hear...


Heh. You claimed the examples were common, but now when called on that it would take "a lot of time".

So by your own testimony, they aren't common at all. 

I didn't have to leave the thread to show you where a woman was denigrating stay at home moms with pejorative terminology.


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## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

In the end, I'm not attempting to "prove" anything, this isn't a doctoral thesis. I know what I've read and how things come across to me, and thus likely to other women. And that feeling is, SAHMs not being respected seems fairly common and it isn't coming from a feminist perspective. 

And honestly - TAM's search feature isn't 100% the best. I mean, I know similiar forums that have searches by poster, term(s), post date, etc, so yes, finding a post on TAM is more difficult than it would be elsewhere, and thus yes, time consuming. But, here we go:



> See, this is in part why using an actual example is necessary. You are saying the SAME PERSON uses different terms depending upon whether it is the man or the woman watching the kids?


No, I'm arguing that when child-care is discussed being done by a husband/father posters in general are more like to call it "babysitting" rather than "child care" or "watching the kids" than they are for mothers. Further, "babysitting" is done by the father is for the benefit of the mother, not the children, and thus when a wife is engaged in an activity the husband doesn't like/she's being wayward removing childcare is a recommended action. 

Why? Why would removing one's involvement with their children be a punishment on the mother? Aren't people in the same breath often saying men want to spend more time with their children but are prevented from doing so by bad ex-wives, and the law? If that's true, why then recommend spending less time with them -when they are living in your house- to punish your wife/soon to be ex? 

Here's some quotes of posters referring to martial problems and telling a husband OP to stop "babysitting": 



> Also, stop being her babysitter so that she can go party with her girlfriends. Of the sexiest traits that women look for, babysitting is not one of them.





> Now that she has you paying the bills and babysitting,





> > He cannot control her actions but he can control his own. He should stop enabling her to spend so much time with the other man (OM) by not staying home to babysit when she is going to see the OM.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

> Modern Christians in general do not accept two-thousand year old attitudes about women being prohibited from speaking in church. If you belong to some whacked-out fringe group


Yeah - it's more common in groups that aren't "whacked-out fringe groups" as you might imagine.


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## krismimo (Jan 26, 2011)

WHOA WHOA umm so on that note...

Anyone hear anything about the poster? No disrespect but I really didn't think it would turn out like this. If I were her I wouldn't come back either. So maybe we should get back to I don't know what she was talking about.. Just a thought.


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## Coffee Amore (Dec 15, 2011)

Most likely it was a poster who was trolling. She/he knew this topic is one that gets people spun up and sure enough, it did. Posts that have such inflammatory thread titles and opening posts are rarely written for a thoughtful discussion.


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## krismimo (Jan 26, 2011)

True but I don't think it was that bad especially on TAM. I have seen much much worse.


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## Quant (Jul 15, 2013)

Happy Housewife7 said:


> Hello all!
> This is my first post so bear with me if I ramble. I guess I was inspired to do this first discussion because of an incident I saw this weekend. A little background information, I'm 25 and I've been married to my wonderful husband for almost 7 years. My husband truly is my best friend and I'm happy to see him every single day. I guess you can say we are in a "old fashioned" relationship as far as gender roles go. I stay home and do all the cooking and cleaning, and the majority of the child care (unless I'm hurt or sick then he tries to take my place lol). My husband works a long 8-9 hour day in a factory and handles our finances, bills, and all the handy work around the house. And we're not overly religious, so that has nothing to do with our views on gender roles.
> 
> I very much enjoy having a role in our marriage and I believe we have a strong one because of it. My husband rushes home to see me everyday, rarely ever wants to go out without me and our daughter, and even takes a few vacation days off a year just to stay home with me all day. There is no fighting about who is going to do what, because we're not both so tired from going to work. My husband opens doors for me, handles all the heavy "man work" and treats me like a lady. In return I respect him and try hard to make him feel like a leader and a man. My question is why don't other wives try to do the same? My husband works with a lot of married men at his factory and he is always telling me how they just hate their marriages. They're shocked to even hear that my husband gets home cooked meals every night. Their wives work long hours and by the time they do see each other they're exhausted and want almost nothing to do with them.
> ...


You are following the optimal evolutionary strategy to me so keep it up.:smthumbup:


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## bunny23 (May 19, 2011)

WTH is it with people who have decided to use feminism as a dirty word btw?

I always see it.

Feminism means choice. Without it we would all have none. Both men and women... 

I always think of Rush Limbaugh when I see feminism so misrepresented. 
My advice is that ladies need to just lead their own freaking life, as do men...


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## Quant (Jul 15, 2013)

bunny23 said:


> WTH is it with people who have decided to use feminism as a dirty word btw?
> 
> I always see it.
> 
> ...


Feminism is a social justice philosophy based on humanist and Marxist principles it is fundamentally logically incoherent like any philosophy based on the moral uniqueness of humans.The question feminists can never answer is why should we care about human difference why is it immoral besides by moral fiat.There is fundamental sex differences and these impact our social structure and economic system we can do nothing to change our evolutionary traits with out creating a inefficient socioeconomic structure based off of distributive policies to the less economically efficient sex.

So the question remains what if our economic and social structure is already optimal from a evolutionary fitness perspective.Should we lower our economic output because some middle class white women are upset.Humans are just animals and in biological systems equality is a nonexistent axiom based on nothing but feeling, inequality is a natural outcome of Darwinian selection when traits are distributed unevenly throughout the population.


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## bunny23 (May 19, 2011)

I agreed with the first part.. the second:

"traits with out creating a inefficient socioeconomic structure based off of distributive policies to the less economically efficient sex.

So the question remains what if our economic and social structure is already optimal from a evolutionary fitness perspective.Should we lower our economic output because some middle class white women are upset.Humans are just animals and in biological systems equality is a nonexistent axiom based on nothing but feeling, inequality is a natural outcome of Darwinian selection when traits are distributed unevenly throughout the population"

More women go to college than men, women are also the spending power, they are also outperforming men as breadwinners...

All while being paid less.

I find your reasoning disappointing. 
Going back in time I think you will see where the inequality came from, especially when looking at religion.


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## Quant (Jul 15, 2013)

bunny23 said:


> I agreed with the first part.. the second:
> 
> "traits with out creating a inefficient socioeconomic structure based off of distributive policies to the less economically efficient sex.
> 
> ...


Women are more likely to work less hours than men they are also less likely to select degrees like engineering and hard sciences where pay is highest so while they get more degrees they are usually things like english and anthropology not degrees with high income potential.Also the wage gap is largely a myth according to the Labor Department http://www.consad.com/content/reports/Gender Wage Gap Final Report.pdf .


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

The only problem I see with OP's situation is the divorce rate.

I hope the OP has some life skills beyond wife and mother or she's screwed if her 7 year marriage only makes it 10 years total.

Especially with her H making 25K a year, there won't be much alimony there if any at all.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

Quant said:


> Feminism is a social justice philosophy based on humanist and Marxist principles it is fundamentally logically incoherent like any philosophy based on the moral uniqueness of humans.


How so?



> The question feminists can never answer is why should we care about human difference why is it immoral besides by moral fiat.


But that's the fundamental question no group or culture can answer because ALL morality is based upon some type of moral fiat...all of it.
If a thing is deemed immoral it is deemed so because it came out lacking when compared to some moral axiom somewhere.
That is the definition of morality/ethics.



> There is fundamental sex differences and these impact our social structure and economic system we can do nothing to change our evolutionary traits with out creating a inefficient socioeconomic structure based off of distributive policies to the less economically efficient sex.


Correct BUT we can (and do) change our societal and economic structures to better address our evolving moral systems.



> So the question remains what if our economic and social structure is already optimal from a evolutionary fitness perspective.


That's a big "What if"

There is no such thing as optimal evolutionary anything.
Everything, biologically and ethically evolves due to the pressures of it's environment.

It can never be "optimal" ever or evolution would stop and that can't happen because environments are constantly changing.



> Should we lower our economic output because some middle class white women are upset.


I fail to see how women being self sufficient and independently financially stable could possibly lower our economic output (whatever that is).


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

Quant said:


> You are following the optimal evolutionary strategy to me so keep it up.:smthumbup:


How is that "optimal evolutionary strategy" going to work out for her when her husband runs off to Reno with his mistress?

How is it going to help her if he drops dead tomorrow?

Doesn't seem like a sound evolutionary strategy in this environment at all.
She would and very well may be on the losing end of "survival of the fittest" very easily.

Sounds damn risky actually.


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## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

It's fine to say women should enjoy an old fashioned marriage. However not all men do. 

I personally do but in the current climate we find we need two incomes. 
Moreover if I was to stay home he would have to be able to give me as much merit and appreciation as a stay at home mum as I give him as the family provider.
He would also have to be willing to meet my emotional and physical needs just as I would his. 

I've met many men who claimed they wanted a traditional wife but really just wanted a door mat.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

*LittleDeer* said:


> I've met many men who claimed they wanted a traditional wife but really just wanted a door mat.


And I've met many men who claimed they wanted a
" financially independent "woman but really wanted a woman to bankroll their vices.
Hot cars, expensive hobbies and spending all day viewing porn and playing video games.
Six of one, hal dozen of the other.
No one model guarantees a better outcome.
Marriage is stil dependent on TWO people working at it.

If two people go into a marriage thinking of a way to get out, it will never work.


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## CoffeeKev (Aug 31, 2013)

ScarletBegonias said:


> I enjoy my not so old fashioned relationship likely as much as you enjoy your old fashioned one.I don't feel the need to create a thread lecturing those who are different while presenting my relationship as better.If you want to be independent,don't get married? Open your mind a bit and realize people aren't cookie cutter.They aren't going to be made happy by the same things.


:iagree:

Ain't that the truth? I ended up becoming a stay at home/ homeschooling father, that moonlights as a firearms instructor!...

My wife is not a muffin baking momma, she is a pick axe swinging, dirt flinging construction girl. Our marriage is not traditional in the least. But we have something that works. I just can't wait til my little boy is old enough to take of himself, so I can get back to work:smthumbup:
Not that I don't love who he is now! Of course I do


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## CoffeeKev (Aug 31, 2013)

Quant said:


> Women are more likely to work less hours than men they are also less likely to select degrees like engineering and hard sciences where pay is highest so while they get more degrees they are usually things like english and anthropology not degrees with high income potential.Also the wage gap is largely a myth according to the Labor Department http://www.consad.com/content/reports/Gender Wage Gap Final Report.pdf .


Dude, you are a very "Autistic" person (In a good way). Woman aren't so concerned with facts as they are with emotional security. If they think higher wages and a nanny government will provide better for them than a husband will, then that's what they will demand. And who can really blame them? They don't need degrees. They know that they just need to keep demanding, and eventually they will get what they want. And of course I am not talking about every woman out there. Just the really shrill weepy whiny ones, which I am sure we will hear from very soon on this topic.


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## Jasel (Jan 8, 2013)

bunny23 said:


> WTH is it with people who have decided to use feminism as a dirty word btw?


I think feminism is just a very broad term, and like with many ideologies you have different people who view it in different ways and co-opt it to promote their own personal or political agendas.

I can talk to one self-described feminist who I will vehemently disagree with and and not want to be in the same room with them and another self-described feminist who I agree with 95%. 

My grandmother keeps to herself, keeps her beliefs to herself, occasionally reads the bible and listens to preachers on television, the radio, and on cassette tapes. A member of the Westboro Baptist church will picket the funerals of people who've done nothing wrong simply because they hate Gays. Both are Christians. But they obviously represent Christianity in very different ways.

It's the same thing with feminism. Many people are going to see what they want or don't want to see about it.


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## ExactlyRight (Oct 25, 2014)

Maricha75 said:


> Incidentally, I have been a SAHM (and housewife before kids) our entire marriage. I deal with the bills. I deal with the cooking. I do most of the cleaning, except what I delegate to the kids as chores. I do the grocery shopping. And it's a good thing I WAS in charge of paying the bills and knew what was going on with our finances because my husband DID have a breakdown. He was working as an auto tech, a job he LOVED. He worked 8 hours each day, 1 hour drive each direction. When he had his breakdown, he was unable to function well. I HAD to handle the finances. But, since I was already doing that anyway, it didn't matter that I "had to"...
> 
> My only point is that, even in "old fashioned" marriages, both spouses need to be able to step into EITHER role, should the unthinkable happen. My husband is capable of doing most things, now, but I, primarily, am "in charge"... and have been for 5 years (since he had his breakdown). I don't see that changing in the forseeable future, but I keep him involved all the way.


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## ExactlyRight (Oct 25, 2014)

Happy Housewife7 said:


> Hello all!
> This is my first post so bear with me if I ramble. I guess I was inspired to do this first discussion because of an incident I saw this weekend. A little background information, I'm 25 and I've been married to my wonderful husband for almost 7 years. My husband truly is my best friend and I'm happy to see him every single day. I guess you can say we are in a "old fashioned" relationship as far as gender roles go. I stay home and do all the cooking and cleaning, and the majority of the child care (unless I'm hurt or sick then he tries to take my place lol). My husband works a long 8-9 hour day in a factory and handles our finances, bills, and all the handy work around the house. And we're not overly religious, so that has nothing to do with our views on gender roles.
> 
> I very much enjoy having a role in our marriage and I believe we have a strong one because of it. My husband rushes home to see me everyday, rarely ever wants to go out without me and our daughter, and even takes a few vacation days off a year just to stay home with me all day. There is no fighting about who is going to do what, because we're not both so tired from going to work. My husband opens doors for me, handles all the heavy "man work" and treats me like a lady. In return I respect him and try hard to make him feel like a leader and a man. My question is why don't other wives try to do the same? My husband works with a lot of married men at his factory and he is always telling me how they just hate their marriages. They're shocked to even hear that my husband gets home cooked meals every night. Their wives work long hours and by the time they do see each other they're exhausted and want almost nothing to do with them.
> ...


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