# Stay or leave?



## Hazelrah10 (Oct 31, 2013)

Two years ago (Dec. 2011), my husband was having a long distant emotional affair - although I certainly had to educate him about what that was. He stopped, but 6 months later (on his cell phone), I found out he made contact with her again AND was also texting a coworker. I confronted him at the time and we agreed to go to marriage counseling. The counselor also spoke about the devastation of an EA and how inappropriate it was to contact a female coworker outside of work. 
I always thought that my husband was one of the most honest men I have ever met. Full of integrity.
Our counselor was not the best and it was a long drive, so we ended counseling.
In Oct. 2012 I confront my husband again about texting coworker and EA and he claims nothing is going on.
Now, a year later, I come home from a trip and find proof on his cell phone that they had sex and confront him about it.
He says that he wants to make the marriage work and will go to counseling. I maintain he has lied to me for two years and caused me incredible pain.
We live in a rural area and it will be very difficult (and probably an hour or more drive) to arrange counseling.
ANY ADVICE?


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Do you have children?


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## now_awake (May 29, 2013)

I wish I had advice! It's been 8 months and I'm still in limbo, which is its own personal kind of hell. 

I'm only here because H has done so much heavy lifting to change himself. He sits there and listens to me now, even if I'm saying painful things. It's weird. Now I have to figure out if I'm here because I want to be or if because I'm sacrificing yet again for him and the family. 

If you're having trouble figuring it out, I would get some individual counselling before even going to marriage counselling. We tried MC, but it wasn't doing anything because I am stuck.


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## Hazelrah10 (Oct 31, 2013)

We have one son in college, two stepdaughters (his first marriage), one new grandchild. 
Even an individual counselor will be difficult to find. This is a very rural area, very small town. Which makes this coworker thing even more difficult! Found out about this (maybe one time) liaison Oct. 14. They work together every day!
He said he told her he was going to work to save his marriage. She knows I know about this.
I am so angry and hurt I don't know if I can work on this....

Since its difficult to find a counselor, I am so grateful to have this outlet. I have no one to talk to, although I did confide in my sister. I am too embarrassed to talk to my close friends about this.
Wondering if I should ask him to take a mini-vacation so that he "can really think about what he did".


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## NeverMore (Feb 24, 2013)

Ok, so he has lied to you repeatedly and ...NOW he says he'll change. Yeah, mine said the same thing too, after being given more than enough chances. Sorry, in my experience they rarely ever change. Mine said he'd go to counseling to fix this. Guess what?? He was cheating the whole time we were in counseling. They just do and say whatever they have to so you won't leave them. I would suggest getting your things in order.

Just wanted to add that IC is a must for you. I did and it has done wonders for my sanity.


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## LivingBreathing (Feb 21, 2013)

They say the past is present in the future. He's done nothing but cheat in the past and the fact that he's been busted again only means he's been busted again. Next week or next month (if you're still with him) he'll probably be busted again. He's already proven he cannot be fixed. If you continue to be a doormat, he will continue to walk all over you. If you do decide to stay with him, and you want peace of mind; don't waste your money on a marriage counselor; get him a chaperone.


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## Insanity (Oct 28, 2013)

NeverMore said:


> Ok, so he has lied to you repeatedly and ...NOW he says he'll change. Yeah, mine said the same thing too, after being given more than enough chances. Sorry, in my experience they rarely ever change. Mine said he'd go to counseling to fix this. Guess what?? *He was cheating the whole time we were in counseling. They just do and say whatever they have to so you won't leave them.* I would suggest getting your things in order.
> 
> Just wanted to add that IC is a must for you. I did and it has done wonders for my sanity.


Oh, this behavior infuriates me! If they are going to keep cheating regardless, just leave the marriage and give the spouse a chance to recover instead of dragging us along behind the pickup truck to be battered to hell and back. Honestly. Infuriating!


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## Clay2013 (Oct 30, 2013)

Hazelrah10,

I don't see how your marriage will be successful. Its not like he made one mistake with one woman. He has continued to make the same mistake. This is not a mistake when he tells her he wants to have sex with her. Do you think she asks why hes not having sex with you. She probably does and Imagine just what horrible things he says about you. .

I was married to my xWW for ten years she did the same thing. She never stopped so I stopped things for her. I threw her out and filed for a divorce. She did not spend a single night alone after that she moved right in with the other man and has been there since. The way I look at it is at least she not messing up someone else's life. 

I hope you can find some peace. 

Clay


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## Insanity (Oct 28, 2013)

Hazelrah10 said:


> They work together every day!


This fact would do it for me. No way I would ever believe him capable of just a working relationship after taking it all the way with her. No way. 

So sorry you are dealing with this.... So very sorry.


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## Hazelrah10 (Oct 31, 2013)

So, I gather from these posts that there is no happy ending to this?


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## sammy3 (Jun 5, 2011)

Hi. Gosh , sorry, this isnt fun. Its awful. Someone very wise once told me, "If you want to predict future behavior, look towards the past."
Can be confusing, yes, I know, but your's is a pattern so obvious to others.

I posted a link on a thread "ban me from TAM" may be very helpful for you to read. 

~sammy


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## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

No, not likely to have happy endings.

He has been married before. Most likely his same behavior is the cause of his first marriage breakdown.

Your son is in college now. So, no reason to stay with him for your son.

He lied to you for 2 years. Each time he promised to stop, he didn't. Instead he took it to the next level.

Your best chance of an emotional survival through this infidelity is to take the position that you'll be okay without him.


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## Hazelrah10 (Oct 31, 2013)

I guess I'll throw this out there:
He's 65, I'm 58. 21 years of marriage.

He ended the affair two days before I learned about it.

This is our home. I would have to leave the area to find a job to support myself. But THIS is also the home my son knows.

I DO think he's sincere, but not sure I can forgive him. He says he loves me, but of course I wonder if economics is part of his decision. I GUESS I love him to, although right now I'm choking on that sentiment.

So, do I give counseling a shot or not? Again, I'm thinking of asking him to take a mini-vacation to get away from both me and her.


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## CH (May 18, 2010)

Leave, he's never going to change.

All your kids are out of the house and he can't keep you away from the grandchild so strap on those big boots and kick away.


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## now_awake (May 29, 2013)

I understand the conflicting emotions you're having. I'm a SAHM and I'd have to deal with so much more than just a divorce. I live in a city where most young people leave because the job market is so bad, so yeah, it scares me. 

Maybe a separation is needed to clear your head. He should be able to give you that much. Maybe it will cause him to self reflect and really understand why he does these things. Maybe he had addiction issues or mental health issues that he's never dealt with.

But, even if he did end up working on himself, it may not be enough at this point. Only you can know for sure.


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## lacey99 (Oct 18, 2013)

Hazelrah10 said:


> So, I gather from these posts that there is no happy ending to this?


maybe not u 2 but for you there is....


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

There is always online counseling. You might want to give that a go.

A house is a house. My mom will never leave the house my father built for her back in the 40's and her house is like a museum. She is not quite a hoarder but almost. She has all these memories of her children. 

I built a house in 1997. There are lots of memories there. I bought a second home after I got a promotion in another city. My youngest son moved into the house after we told him we were going to sell it. He lived away from us for 5 years and moved back and said you can't sell this house, I helped build it when I was ten years old. 

Now he in agreement for us to sell. He got over his attachment for the home. My wife did not want to sell the house, but that was when she was fooling around and thought I would get one house and she the other. Now she is pushing for us to sell the other home.

I literally built that house. And it took me a little while to work through my feelings about it. I now feel a house is just a house.

There are many sweet memories but sometimes it is best to move on.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

OP, first, you need to find out if the OW is married or in a relationship. If she is, you need to let her partner know about the affair. You don't have to argue with him or try to prove it if he doesn't want to believe you. But you should definitely let him know about it if he doesn't already. 

After that I would start by telling your husband that in order for you even to begin thinking about working to save this marriage, he will need to do the following:



STD testing. And you need a copy of the test reports from his physician or clinic. Don't just take his word for it, and get tested yourself in any case.
Either he or she gets a new job. They can't work together.
No-Contact. For_ life_. With any woman he's had an affair, or even an inappropriate relationship, with. No phone calls, no emails, no birthday cards, no following her Twitter feed, no Facebook friends, no stops to speak in the grocery store aisle, no chatting at the neighbors' holiday party. No. Contact.
Polygraph. Make sure the questions cover whether or not this is his only affair.
Full transparency. You need the password to every single email, social media, online gaming, and cell phone account he has, including work related accounts. You also have the right to look at his computer and cell phone at any time, without warning or prep-time, no questions asked.
The two of you sit down with your children, siblings, and any living parents and you tell them together about his affair. Don't let him do this without you being there, because chances are good he'll just lie to them and make you out to be a nut-job. If he won't do it, you should tell them anyway. 

And you need to mean it. If he tries to dodge, stonewall, "forget", talk you out of it, gaslight you, or in any other way fails to get on board with those requirements, you might as well hang it up. 
You need to get monitoring software on his computer and his cell phone to verify that he is not contacting OW. Don't tell him you're doing this. 

Then you can worry about counseling. There are online and phone counseling options if you cannot find a good therapist - experienced with recovery from infidelity - in your area.


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## Hazelrah10 (Oct 31, 2013)

now_awake said:


> I understand the conflicting emotions you're having. I'm a SAHM and I'd have to deal with so much more than just a divorce. I live in a city where most young people leave because the job market is so bad, so yeah, it scares me.
> 
> Maybe a separation is needed to clear your head. He should be able to give you that much. Maybe it will cause him to self reflect and really understand why he does these things. Maybe he had addiction issues or mental health issues that he's never dealt with.
> 
> But, even if he did end up working on himself, it may not be enough at this point. Only you can know for sure.


Thank you for those encouraging words.


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## Hazelrah10 (Oct 31, 2013)

Well, husband came home last night and announced that the OW was looking for another job. I asked him to look at his vacation time to see if he could take some days to be away from both me and her. He said he would do "whatever it takes".
My problem is he does not understand my need to talk about this. He hasn't addressed anything - only when I bring it up. He is going to ask his physician for a referral to a counselor. But that could take a while......
Hopefully, he will take next week off from work and then I will take a mini-vacation. It's not a separation but will hopefully let us both get perspective. I plan on writing him a letter to take with him and ask that he put his thoughts down as well.


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## Insanity (Oct 28, 2013)

Verbal communication is a learned skill. I have come to observe and believe if one's husband's father was not a communicator -- the husband (ie: your spouse) generally enters a marriage not knowing how to effectively and properly communicate nor is he inherently aware of the importance of it. 

Until the lack of verbal sharing is addressed, writing out your thoughts and asking him to do likewise is the next best thing to verbal communication. Hopefully, your husband will fulfill your request to write his thoughts down, too. One way or the other -- both your hearts need to be heard by the other. 

May your time away next week be refreshing as well as insightful for you both.


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## Hazelrah10 (Oct 31, 2013)

Thank you, Insanity!


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

Hazel, it sounds like your H still doesn't "get it," which is the absolute minimum prerequisite for a successful R. My W didn't get it for years. There are several books out there that have been cited on TAM in many places that would be of benefit. Two of the basic ones for couples are Not Just Friends (Shirley Glass) and His Needs, Her Needs (Willard Harley). Both highly recommened.


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## rabbislatkin (Sep 23, 2013)

I’m so sorry to hear about your situation. It’s got to be pretty devastating to see this emotional affair continuing off and on for so long and exploding into full-blown infidelity. While a lot of readers posted that you should not trust your husband, that he doesn’t get it, and that he will do it again, you write that you do think he is sincere but you are not sure if you can forgive him. 

It’s hard to understand why people have affairs and its even harder to figure out why he doesn’t seem to get what you need after all of this. Without knowing too many details of your situation, it sounds from what you posted that you are not ready to end the relationship. If that’s the case, it is crucial you get qualified help so that you can heal and your relationship can survive. 

There are a few components to healing a marriage from an affair. I use the following when I work with couples after an affair:

The first is to process what went on. You need to be able to have a safe venue to express your feelings of hurt and betrayal and he needs to be able to hear and validate your experience. 


It’s also important that he be fully transparent with you. If you have any questions about what went on, he needs to come forth with that information. It will take time to get over what happened and to deal with your feelings of hurt. 


In terms of forgiving him, you will have to decide when you are ready. 


After he admits to what he did, an amends process is necessary where he can ask you for forgiveness in a structured format, more than just saying, “I’m sorry.” 

After you do the initial work to heal the affair, it is crucial to spend time working on the relationship. What led to such a breach? When couples are in pain and don’t have the tools to help them work out the issues together, they often find other outlets to avoid dealing with their spouse. This can range from work and eating to infidelity. It’s important to understand your relationship dynamic and learn how you can do things differently. Healing the relationship from the root of the conflict is the best way to assure he does not repeat his behavior. Otherwise, he could apologize but if the same internal issues are present, he could do it again. 

It goes without saying that he should avoid any situation that would tempt him to repeat his behavior. This means no contact with the co-worker and limited or zero contact with other women via text, social media. If he is really committed to you and your marriage, he will need to go above and beyond to show you and to rebuild your trust. It does take time and affairs can be healed if you both want the relationship bad enough.

Finally, there are programs you can do at home as well as skype counseling so don’t let distance deter you from getting the help you need. Just make sure you get someone qualified and experienced in working with infidelity because an amateur could make things worse.


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## Hazelrah10 (Oct 31, 2013)

Thank you rabbislatkin! I started The 180 and felt so much better. I asked my WH to take a trip, so we could be apart (and he'd be apart from his coworker as well). I started a letter to him detailing my hurt and his betrayal that he could take with him & possibly write me back.
He came home last night with a gift and wanted to talk, so I pulled out the unfinished letter and read it to him. I told him that as hurt & devastated I was finding about his A, the fact that he had not initiated any conversations or gestures since D-day (Oct.14) was JUST as painful. He has always avoided conflict (both his daughters have also said so) but this was unacceptable. In fact, I got an apology card from the OM before I got one from him!
While he did end the A before I knew about it, and he claims he did it because he loves me, I have to wonder if this is true. Does he want to stay together for economic reasons? Because it would be too embarrassing to be such a cliché? Because he would lose the respect of his children?
I feel although he has been a SOB, he is sincere. But, as I told him last night, I have "hardened my heart" so that the pain isn't so acute. I am searching for a counselor, while he does the same. My question is, will I ever be able to forgive him?
Any advice out there?


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## now_awake (May 29, 2013)

Even at my stage, I rarely if ever think about forgiveness. I've read about couples who reconcile without forgiveness. So, it's not some mandatory thing, but it's something you do if it helps you heal. It's not about him. If not forgiving helps you heal, then that's what's right for you at the time. To me, there is a huge difference between forgiveness and acceptance of reality.


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## now_awake (May 29, 2013)

I've been thinking about my last reply to you and wondering if has highlighted a place where I'm getting stuck in my healing. It reminded me of a wonderful talk about forgiveness I watched soon after my own DDay. Maybe it can help you. I'm glad I was reminded of it and I'm watching it right now. 

Jack Kornfield: The Ancient Heart of Forgiveness - YouTube


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## Hazelrah10 (Oct 31, 2013)

Thank you now awake!


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## 86857 (Sep 5, 2013)

Hazelrah10 said:


> - Dec. 2011, my husband was having a long distant emotional affair.
> 
> - 6 months later (on his cell phone), I found out he made contact with her again AND was also texting a coworker.
> 
> ...


He's a serial cheater. A tough nut to crack, many would say impossible. 

He learned about the devastation of EA at the first counselling. So what does he do? Has himself more and goes on to have a PA. 

You said he's an avoider. So was my WS. He refused to talk about it unless I brought it up and even then he was mostly silent. Didn't volunteer ANY details. Our experienced psychologist warned me after our first visit that even he wouldn't be able to get him to talk. We tried but he wasn't able to and told me not to keep coming back and wasting our money! Years of therapy needed apparently. Good idea to have him write it down instead. Worth a shot I suppose.

They had sex. So you now have the mind movies. Great!

Will you ever forgive him? Nope! 

Read some threads here where there is the yo-yo of EA/PA, then R, EA/PA, then R. . . ad nauseam.

This has consumed 2 years of your life. 

He has no respect for you. He has had more than enough chances to show you that he does.

Even if you do R will you ever trust him again?

How do you know what he got up to that you didn't find out about. You need full 100% disclosure, no less.

VAR his car and your home if you go away. 

Sorry to be so negative. Been there. Done that.


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## Kaci (Mar 11, 2013)

"Its not like he made one mistake with one woman. He has continued to make the same mistake."

It wasn't a one time mistake. He is in hunting mode, there may be even more attempts, successes, than you are aware of. 

You live too far out of town for marriage counseling... are these his thoughts or yours? Does he mind going 'out of his way' for these ladies? I'd boot him to the curb. Do what ever you can to live on your own. As mentioned many times on this website, "sometimes you have to end your marriage to save it."

If he cared, at all, and had any kind of a conscience, he would have confessed at discovery (in tears, hopefully). He should have been brokenhearted when he realized how awful this is and how he has hurt and betrayed you.


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## Kaci (Mar 11, 2013)

VAR his car and your home if you go away. [/QUOTE said:


> Why bother, :scratchhead: his behavior is already in discovery mode.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

You say you got an apology card from the OM. Is this the H of the OW? Or was this a typo and the card came from the OW?

Is she married? Did they get busted?

I think you can't trust what he says at all. He needs absolute NC and it has to be verifiable. He's had an affair for years now. This behavior and these feelings don't just disappear in a puff of smoke now that he says he's recommitted to you.

I'm sorry you feel so stuck & sympathize, but it's all new right now & the idea of divorce may be much less onerous as you've had time to consider what he has actually done, which is carry on with another woman for years, lie to you incessantly, try to rugsweep it now, and not show particular remorse.

If he doesn't start to do the heavy lifting, and soon, divorce may begin to look very palatable to you.

And there are perfectly competent online counselors out there that you can use, as someone mentioned earlier.


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