# Is asking wife to stop 'nagging' rude, sexist or chauvinistic?



## iBolt (Aug 28, 2012)

There's a long standing reality in my 19 month old marriage that is regular and that is fighting. 

My wife is a feminist and is a pretty passionate character when it comes to women's rights and issues. These are so strongly held that it drives me nutts. Up hntil recently, I was always a 'focus on the positive in your relationship' kind of guy. However after our recent separation two months ago and we deciding (again) to work things out, I confess to not really being the same man I used to be emotionally with her. Two separations and numerous threats of divorce have sucked much hope and trust out of me.

As I have struggled, she has increasingly become more negative. Barely a few days go by without some kind of complaint of dissatisfaction with something that I do or don't do. I am just tired of the constant complaints and demands. I simply just shut down.

So tonight while a list of my ineptitudes were being thrown at me I asked her to please stop nagging me and that I don’t like the way she is talking to me. She took serious offense to the word nagging because it was sexist rude and chauvinistic. I was fuming. I offered to explain what I meant by nagging and saw nothing gender specific about the word...but oh no! She didn't want to know.

Now she's mega pissed. 

Would you women on TAM consider sexist if a man asked you to stop nagging?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## justonelife (Jul 29, 2010)

That's a lot of issues less than 2 years into the marriage. Maybe you guys really aren't compatible? Was this a "whirlwind" romance? 

Generally, "nagging" does have a very negative association referring to women. It would bug me if my husband used this word to describe me. It seems very immature. If you have a problem with the way your wife is talking to you, then you should state that in a clear, specific manner. "Nagging" is too negative and general and doesn't actually convey any information that she can act upon.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

iBolt said:


> There's a long standing reality in my 19 month old marriage that is regular and that is fighting.
> 
> My wife is a feminist and is a pretty passionate character when it comes to women's rights and issues. These are so strongly held that it drives me nutts. Up hntil recently, I was always a 'focus on the positive in your relationship' kind of guy. However after our recent separation two months ago and we deciding (again) to work things out, I confess to not really being the same man I used to be emotionally with her. Two separations and numerous threats of divorce have sucked much hope and trust out of me.
> 
> ...


Men nag too, and it can suck...


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## mace17 (Jul 12, 2013)

I personally don't feel that the term nagging is sexist. My husband nags me a lot! But I do agree with the other poster that telling her exactly what she is doing and how you feel about it would be more constructive that just a general complaint of nagging.


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## SunnyT (Jun 22, 2011)

Just call a truce. Tell her you won't use the word nagging, if she will stop harping about the same subject. Tell her that this could improve communications between you. Make it about improving the relationship, not a personal shot at each other.


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## hambone (Mar 30, 2013)

iBolt said:


> There's a long standing reality in my 19 month old marriage that is regular and that is fighting.
> 
> My wife is a feminist and is a pretty passionate character when it comes to women's rights and issues. These are so strongly held that it drives me nutts. Up hntil recently, I was always a 'focus on the positive in your relationship' kind of guy. However after our recent separation two months ago and we deciding (again) to work things out, I confess to not really being the same man I used to be emotionally with her. Two separations and numerous threats of divorce have sucked much hope and trust out of me.
> 
> ...


Two years in... if you don't have any kids... I'd get out...

In a good relationship... the spouse energizes you... In a bad one... they drain your energy..
Life is too short to put up with that...


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## 4thand11 (May 20, 2013)

iBolt said:


> There's a long standing reality in my 19 month old marriage that is regular and that is fighting.
> 
> My wife is a feminist and is a pretty passionate character when it comes to women's rights and issues. These are so strongly held that it drives me nutts. Up hntil recently, I was always a 'focus on the positive in your relationship' kind of guy. However after our recent separation two months ago and we deciding (again) to work things out, I confess to not really being the same man I used to be emotionally with her. Two separations and numerous threats of divorce have sucked much hope and trust out of me.
> 
> ...


Seriously get out. I am all for equality between the sexes but there are some radical feminists who, quite frankly, don't like men very much. It would be like a woman being married to a raging misogynist. 

Even the way she got pissed over the word nagging... notice how she quickly changed the topic, from her constantly belittling you to yet ANOTHER thing you did wrong?

By the way the word nagging is not sexist, both genders do it and sometimes the word fits.

Life is too short, find someone who appreciates you and men in general.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

You took her back! She agreed to work on the relationship! Under what conditions? That she can continue to berate you in front of your children, in your home? And you want to search for answers to prove her wrong? Call it what you want, she's disrespecting you! That's not working on the relationship! She's never going to change. Send her packing. Geesh


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## ChargingCharlie (Nov 14, 2012)

hambone said:


> Two years in... if you don't have any kids... I'd get out...
> 
> In a good relationship... the spouse energizes you... In a bad one... they drain your energy..
> Life is too short to put up with that...


:iagree: This sounds like my marriage, especially after the kids arrived. Nags me about my driving (not driving fast enough or aggressively enough), nags that I'm not changing the kids correctly, nags me on all kinds of little things constantly, and has a fit. Always wants to be in control and have things done her way. If I say something back to her, I'm mean and she gets pissed. I keep hoping that this is just a dream and that I'll wake up single in my old house and bed.


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

iBolt said:


> Two separations and numerous threats of divorce have sucked much hope and trust out of me.


Sheesh - that's a lot for what should have been the "honeymoon" phase of your marriage. We're still on honeymoon five years into it.

She sounds like an emotionally abusive personality. Feminism is rife with manipulative, abusive misandry ALWAYS under cover of victimhood. That's what you just got: blame-the-victim attack for asking her to stop attacking you. 

The one thing you can't do with manipulative people is reason with them. You give them choices with consequences. No explaining. They're just going to wear you down and make you angry because their tactics are so malicious. Then they'll call you an "angry person" for letting their attacks provoke you.

You can't change her. You can only change yourself. Like namely never allowing yourself to fall into the clutches of something like this again. It isn't so much that you need to avoid feminists in particular in the future. You do, but it is manipulative people in general. So learning how to recognize manipulative tactics and what to do about them is a must.

I usually recommend "In Sheeps Clothing, Understanding and Dealing with Manipulative People" by Dr. George Simon. Although it focuses on covert aggressives, it is the most common type of manipulation you see nowadays and the same tactics are used by all manipulators from garden variety narcissists to serial killers. Once you read that you are going to be amazed to see all of the tactics feminists use listed with names like playing the victim, shaming, guilt-tripping, inappropriate anger, ridicule, lying by omission, selective attention/inattention, playing dumb, etc. ad infinitum.


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## AlphaHalf (Aug 5, 2012)

nag 
v. nagged, nag·ging, nags

1. To annoy by constant scolding, complaining, or urging.
2. To torment persistently, as with anxiety or pain.


Ok you cant use Nagging, Maybe complaining? Griping? Pestering? [email protected]#CHING? 

She may not like what her shoes are called but she is wearing the $h!t out of it. If she doesn't change soon then cut the sling load and fly away.


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## luravua (Jul 25, 2013)

It seems very immature. If you have a problem with the way your wife is talking to you


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

No, asking her if it's "that time of the month" would qualify as sexist or chauvinistic, I think...

I just read your first post... Why did you let her come back? Have you ever sought counseling for trying to see what your role in all this is? And I don't mean that in a negative, demeaning way. But at some point, you have to take ownership of why you're in the situation you're in.

C


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

iBolt said:


> There's a long standing reality in my 19 month old marriage that is regular and that is fighting.
> 
> My wife is a feminist and is a pretty passionate character when it comes to women's rights and issues. These are so strongly held that it drives me nutts. Up hntil recently, I was always a 'focus on the positive in your relationship' kind of guy. However after our recent separation two months ago and we deciding (again) to work things out, I confess to not really being the same man I used to be emotionally with her. Two separations and numerous threats of divorce have sucked much hope and trust out of me.
> 
> ...


How about some examples of what she was nagging you about.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Wiserforit said:


> Sheesh - that's a lot for what should have been the "honeymoon" phase of your marriage. We're still on honeymoon five years into it.
> 
> She sounds like an emotionally abusive personality. Feminism is rife with manipulative, abusive misandry ALWAYS under cover of victimhood. That's what you just got: blame-the-victim attack for asking her to stop attacking you.
> 
> ...


:iagree::smthumbup: good points Professor!


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

First of all, if she is a feminist and hates men, then she is not wife material... Think about it.

And, are you so "whipped" that you are afraid of her? It seems like it when you say you "asked her to please stop nagging you"... and then "offered to explain what you meant".

This will never work!


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## Sanity (Mar 7, 2011)

iBolt said:


> There's a long standing reality in my 19 month old marriage that is regular and that is fighting.
> 
> My wife is a feminist and is a pretty passionate character when it comes to women's rights and issues. These are so strongly held that it drives me nutts. Up hntil recently, I was always a 'focus on the positive in your relationship' kind of guy. However after our recent separation two months ago and we deciding (again) to work things out, I confess to not really being the same man I used to be emotionally with her. Two separations and numerous threats of divorce have sucked much hope and trust out of me.
> 
> ...




First mistake was marrying a modern feminist. Their current belief system is fundamentally incompatible with a loving, healthy relantionship. From your post though I honest recommend you leave her and maybe tatoo on her back while she is sleeping "Don't marry me!" j/k btw but she's just not wife material buddy.


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## iBolt (Aug 28, 2012)

Well in reply to a request that I state what she complains about (and please have the context of 19mths married, recently got back together after 2nd separation about 8weeks ago, several threats of divorce before separation etc):

Most common are that I never touch her, compliment her. I don't love her/show it, I make her feel she is a burden. I do not value her, I don't support her and I am not her friend.

I clearly don't see it this way. There is honestly not a week that goes by where there isn't a complaint about something I do or don't do and how I end up making her feel. She used to complain about me not buying her flowers or not helping enough with the kids. Me doing so will show love and respect. For the record, I have always been a totally hands on dad. I bath, cook, clean, read, talk and play with my kids very regularly. Though frustrated by her judgement that I wasn't doing enough, I carried on doing more. I started buying flowers (not the cheap stuff) and I'd write thank you notes on them each month. I thought doing these, despite work commitments and me staying home when she travels abroad for 2-3 weeks for her job was all show of support, respect and love but no. These were not going to be enough.

Other things soon creep up. I honestly do not get what flowers do for her but I buy them anyways. 

Recently, she wrote an email complaining about me taking her parking spot in front of the house. She figured that it was a show of disrespect and lack of courtesy since this space was closer to the front door. Though I couldn't get this logic, I moved my car and parked it where it's normally parked. We have had fights about me walking ahead of her in public, me switching positions as soon as she starts talking, say while in the kitchen; or even me not staring at her when she is talking.

I know that I am not the most tactile person going and I just like my own space once in a while. I have expressed this to her and even shared feelings about it. I am pretty upset because I know how difficult our marriage has been for me (and no doubt for her too). After the last separation and her saying she was going to file for divorce, things have not been the same for me. 

I have told her that I am really struggling to trust her again as I am tired of the upheavals these fights, tantrums, outbursts of crying in the middle of the night when kids are asleep and separations etc have had wreaked in my life. This was not what I anticipated coming into a second marriage for me and my 3kids for whom I have full custody. I had no problems taking care of them myself. 

I just do not understand how or why one would have such a huge list of demands which if you don't meet must automatically mean you don't love them. Everything I do or don't do is yet another evidence of whether I love her or not. This is just suffocating and soul destroying since I know that I am trying my best though some of what she needs do not come naturally to me and some of what she has clearly said she needed during therapy - I am doing.

Now I just don't believe that there is anything I can do that can fill the void she has. I am RAPIDLY losing any desire to try anymore.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Your wife may be a feminist but do not attribute her behavior/complaints/neediness to feminism. You took her parking spot, so are her legs broken? She may be overwhelmed with becoming a mom to an instant family and is trying to establish herself as top priority (which is pretty much wishful thinking on her part). 

What are you getting out of this marriage?


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## Sanity (Mar 7, 2011)

iBolt said:


> Now I just don't believe that there is anything I can do that can fill the void she has. I am RAPIDLY losing any desire to try anymore.


You have a better chance of filling the Grand Canyon completely with marshmellows than making this woman happy. Because she is inherently an unhappy, angry person, she is not adding to your life but sucking life out of yours. Nothing you do will be enough and the more you try, the more you will lose.


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## iBolt (Aug 28, 2012)

Blondilocks said:


> Your wife may be a feminist but do not attribute her behavior/complaints/neediness to feminism. You took her parking spot, so are her legs broken? She may be overwhelmed with becoming a mom to an instant family and is trying to establish herself as top priority (which is pretty much wishful thinking on her part).
> 
> What are you getting out of this marriage?


Good question which I am finally asking myself. I have done the best I can to try and alleviate the pressures of 'mothering' off of her. She has free reign over discipline (with my backing if she wants it) At first this was tough but I soon learned to have the kids obey her and honour her. In fairness, she is great with the kids. I am home with her and kids pretty much every evening to do domestics. I do school run every morning so that she can get on with her work from home. 

She is supportive of my work and I of her but then suddenly comes this emotional outburst that makes it sound like I simply sit around doing nothing while she slaves away babysitting. 

I understand that some people need someone who will grovel and drool over them every five seconds but to suggest that my not doing so is because I don't love her or find her attractive, to me is nutts. I swear I am going crazy feeling like I am the worst man around despite everything else I do.


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

She sounds like the Queen of Hearts in Wonderland. No way to understand that, and I don't see how/why you even want to try. Mindblowing sex couldn't even make up for such nonsense. NO WAY.


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

Your wife isn't a feminist. Your wife is a mysandrist. There's a HUGE difference. 

Feminists look for and want 100% equality between men and women. A mysandrist will find reasons why men as a gender are wrong in any given situation. Her perceived slights and issues are because of you being a man. The nagging argument is a classic one, I would've replied "Would you prefer HARPED on me, as in a HARPY, or *****ing at me....." Obviously the conversation would've gone from bad to worse, but the word nagging IS NOT a real negative anti-feminine word. My wife and I use it regularly frankly LOL (towards both of us by the way). 

The issue with the car parking...REALLY? Now I'm a HUGE proponent of chivalry, when it's not DEMANDED. If a woman demands chivalry...she can bite me. 

Sorry but your wife has a TON of issues. And she's not going to change. She doesn't see herself as being wrong. For me, there'd be one solution. Wait until she brings up divorce again and yell out "THANK GOD. I THOUGHT YOU'D NEVER ASK. CAN WE GO TOMORROW?" (that'll throw her for a loop).


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## ChargingCharlie (Nov 14, 2012)

My wife *****es about parking, but in relation to when we're out at a store or restaurant. If I don't see the spot she sees and drive past it, she throws a major fit. If I park in a spot she deems not close enough, she throws a fit. Also with my driving in general. She wants to be "in control", and will complain if she's not. Note that this is only with me, she doesn't do this with anyone else.


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## LoveAtDaisys (Jul 3, 2013)

Your wife actually sounds a little like me, so I hope I can speak a little bit for her without justifying her actions.

Your wife is probably a go-getter, right? In charge, in control, authoritative? Relationships, I'm learning, can't be controlled. And she's out of her element with you. She's trying to control you because she has control in every other aspect of her life and doesn't understand that she can't control this.

It sounds to me like what might help is getting into MC and talking, HONESTLY, about how to compromise on her control issues. Realize compromise is a foreign concept to her, and even if she's completely on-board with it that she's going to slip up some. If you're willing to go through with it, it's going to take some serious work but it will be worth it for both of you I think.

Calling herself a "feminist"...I do that sometimes. Feminism is about believing in equality and the strength of a woman, not believing that we stand alone and don't need men. We're EQUAL, not better. Half the time I've realized when I say "feminist" I mean "control freak".

Nag...I can see why she's upset at that word. It's not necessarily chauvinistic, or sexist, but it does have a very, very negative connotation. Granted, I don't know that it's worth an all-out argument over, but.


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## GTdad (Aug 15, 2011)

Feminism isn't even a factor here as far as I can see, and I wouldn't call her a "man-hater" based on the evidence.

What your wife is is a self-absorbed princess, about the farthest thing from a true feminist as I can imagine.

Stop trying so hard to avoid pissing her off, as you don't have a prayer of NOT pissing her off, regardless of how hard you try. If the word "nagging" fits, continue to use it, and let the chips fall where they may.

And seriously reconsider whether this marriage is worth attempting to save.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

ChargingCharlie said:


> My wife *****es about parking, but in relation to when we're out at a store or restaurant. If I don't see the spot she sees and drive past it, she throws a major fit. If I park in a spot she deems not close enough, she throws a fit. Also with my driving in general. She wants to be "in control", and will complain if she's not. Note that this is only with me, she doesn't do this with anyone else.


The only thing to do with a backseat driver is to put them in the backseat.


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## VermisciousKnid (Dec 27, 2011)

LoveAtDaisys said:


> Your wife actually sounds a little like me, so I hope I can speak a little bit for her without justifying her actions.
> 
> Your wife is probably a go-getter, right? In charge, in control, authoritative? Relationships, I'm learning, can't be controlled. And she's out of her element with you. She's trying to control you because she has control in every other aspect of her life and doesn't understand that she can't control this.
> 
> ...


Interesting and honest take on the situation. My question is: Would MC address her control issues or is IC really the thing for that? Wouldn't someone with control issues just attempt to control their spouse through MC?


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## ChargingCharlie (Nov 14, 2012)

Blondilocks said:


> The only thing to do with a backseat driver is to put them in the backseat.


Trust me, that won't help. In her mind, every other driver is an idiot. She's the only good driver in the world. Only going 9 MPH over the speed limit? You're an idiot. Slowing down to make a turn in front of her? You're an idiot. 

She needs to get pulled over by a cop or get into a fender bender (without the kids in the car) where it's her fault. Maybe that will teach her. I can't say anything to her, as I drive defensively instead of aggressively, and aggressively is the way you're supposed to drive (yes, she really believes this).


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Well, I don't see what you posted as nagging.

Men have a need for sex and a need for their wife to be "into it".

Women have a need for men to prove their love in all sorts of other little ways and need their husband to be "into it".

Think about that.


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

ChargingCharlie said:


> Trust me, that won't help. In her mind, every other driver is an idiot. She's the only good driver in the world. Only going 9 MPH over the speed limit? You're an idiot. Slowing down to make a turn in front of her? You're an idiot.
> 
> She needs to get pulled over by a cop or get into a fender bender (without the kids in the car) where it's her fault. Maybe that will teach her. I can't say anything to her, as I drive defensively instead of aggressively, and aggressively is the way you're supposed to drive (yes, she really believes this).


My wife was a back seat driver, until she complained one too many times and I pulled over in the left lane of the highway (off the shoulder, I wasn't an idiot about it), got out and sat in the back seat and said.

THEN YOU DRIVE! 

PS yes this wasn't just a one time issue, it had become a major point for me that I tried to have reasonable conversations about. After that she finally ADMITTED to being wrong for back seat driving and we joke about it now.


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## Chelle D (Nov 30, 2011)

nagging is a very sensative word. Even if said in a very calm, ... not threatening way... in a conversation that is not an arguement.

Yes, you could try to justify that maybe "you" didn't mean it in a gender specific way.. Still it is mostly seen as derogatory to the female sex in a general audience. 


If at a later date, when she is not fighting & angry with you... you could ask to sit down an have a calm talk with her?

THen bring up, that when she brings up your shortcomings (shortcomings in her mind).. that it feels like she is badgering you about them. Don't say "You keep badgering me about the same subject... " Say "I feel... Badgered, threatened... I feel weary of hearing about it... etc." 

Using the "I Feel... " instead "You do xxxx..." shifts some of the blame, and is easier for her to maybe see that her actions are affecting your mood, perception... feelings for her.

When you say "You make me so mad when you nag.. etc" Is so much more accusatory than " I feel very brow beaten when you bring up many topics." The accusatory sentence immediately puts her to the defensive & most likely will start or deepen any fights.


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## ChargingCharlie (Nov 14, 2012)

Dad&Hubby said:


> My wife was a back seat driver, until she complained one too many times and I pulled over in the left lane of the highway (off the shoulder, I wasn't an idiot about it), got out and sat in the back seat and said.
> 
> THEN YOU DRIVE!
> 
> PS yes this wasn't just a one time issue, it had become a major point for me that I tried to have reasonable conversations about. After that she finally ADMITTED to being wrong for back seat driving and we joke about it now.


Yep, I've thought about that, and even though I'm pretty passive with her (especially if the kids are around), I may just do that next time she gets this way. I don't see her joking about it, though. She's pretty insecure, and this could touch off a big fight and she probably won't stop being this way.


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## iBolt (Aug 28, 2012)

Hicks said:


> Well, I don't see what you posted as nagging.
> 
> Men have a need for sex and a need for their wife to be "into it".
> 
> ...


As I do not entirely understand the thrust of your post I'll nevertheless respond this way:

I consider it nagging when someone bangs on and on and on about something over and over again with little or no variation. "You never do rhis. You never do that. You don't make me feel this or that. I wonder what I am left fighting for. You are not putting in the same effort into this marriage. You don't love me tje same way that I love you. .." sometimes at 1am. Kids are sleeping. I really want to sleep also. If I dare go to sleep it would be because I am selfish and my sleep os more important than she is. She does this comparison thing often aimed at letting me know that I am choosing work, sleep, kids, my family or my need for space over her therefore meaning she doesn't matter
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

iBolt said:


> As I do not entirely understand the thrust of your post I'll nevertheless respond this way:
> 
> I consider it nagging when someone bangs on and on and on about something over and over again with little or no variation. *"You never do rhis. You never do that. You don't make me feel this or that. I wonder what I am left fighting for. You are not putting in the same effort into this marriage. You don't love me tje same way that I love you. .." sometimes at 1am.* Kids are sleeping. I really want to sleep also. *If I dare go to sleep it would be because I am selfish and my sleep os more important than she is. She does this comparison thing often aimed at letting me know that I am choosing work, sleep, kids, my family or my need for space over her therefore meaning she doesn't matter*_Posted via Mobile Device_


Maddening.


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

iBolt said:


> Recently, she wrote an email complaining about me taking her parking spot in front of the house. She figured that it was a show of disrespect and lack of courtesy since this space was closer to the front door.


Sooooo typical. A "feminist" except whenever it is against her interest.

Many manipulative women self-select into "feminism" because it has a whole menu of off-the-shelf tactics and it can be defined any way you want. They're always going to say it is about "equality", but it is Orwell's version where I am more equal than you. I get to park closer. She'll have other examples of hypocrisy too under the maxim that most feminists are just cake-eaters.

Some people have apparently mistaken your answer to what sorts of things she complains about. It was obviously not you explaining what "feminism" is. Amongst the problems for you in your relationship, there's her brand of feminism in addition to these other things like not enough touching.

My wife and I drive as a team. I ask her to help and I thank her for pointing out things even when I am already aware of them. I saw my grandpa always saying "thank you dear" to my grandma when she saw a stop sign ahead or kids playing on the curb or whatever. I do the same thing.


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

ChargingCharlie said:


> Yep, I've thought about that, and even though I'm pretty passive with her (especially if the kids are around), I may just do that next time she gets this way. I don't see her joking about it, though. She's pretty insecure, and this could touch off a big fight and she probably won't stop being this way.


My wife wasn't happy with me for about 4 hours. So...

I wasn't driving badly, I don't speed (any more than she does anyway) etc. 

My wife has a mild case of OCD on certain issues. She recognizes it and tries to limit it's affect on our lives but it still comes out. Later that night, because I never backed down and I never apologized. After about 4 hours with the pink elephant in the room. I simply said "Your backseat driving is out of hand. You need to control it and what you did was disrespectful." She came around and we do things differently. She reads alot more in the car on long drives. She keeps her attention away from the cars in front of us. I'm patient if she does have a "flare up" for a moment because it's not constant and she's showing me she's trying to be better, and that's all I care about.

Noone is perfect, but if the person shows they recognize the problem and are actively doing their best to deal with it, I'm totally okay with it.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

VermisciousKnid said:


> Interesting and honest take on the situation. My question is: Would MC address her control issues or is IC really the thing for that? Wouldn't someone with control issues just attempt to control their spouse through MC?


MC is the place to start because the issues are damaging the marriage. The MC will help them identify things that each of them need to work on individually.


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## ChargingCharlie (Nov 14, 2012)

Dad&Hubby said:


> My wife wasn't happy with me for about 4 hours. So...
> 
> I wasn't driving badly, I don't speed (any more than she does anyway) etc.
> 
> ...


That is excellent advice, and I thank you for sharing. My wife is also somewhat OCD. My hangup is that I don't like conflict (she doesn't either, but that doesn't apply with me), so I try to avoid it whenever I can. As you say, though, it's best to meet it head-on and deal with the consequences, or else I'll be on here for years complaining about how she nags about my driving.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

iBolt said:


> There's a long standing reality in my 19 month old marriage that is regular and that is fighting.
> 
> My wife is a feminist and is a pretty passionate character when it comes to women's rights and issues. These are so strongly held that it drives me nutts. Up hntil recently, I was always a 'focus on the positive in your relationship' kind of guy. However after our recent separation two months ago and we deciding (again) to work things out, I confess to not really being the same man I used to be emotionally with her. Two separations and numerous threats of divorce have sucked much hope and trust out of me.
> 
> ...


To me,it's all about how you say things and not so much about the words you choose. Nagging isn't the best way to ask her to step back from picking at you but I don't necessarily see it as sexist or chauvinistic.I see it more as blinding frustration and impulsive speaking. 
There seems to be a lack of respect going on from both sides and it's spiraling downward.
If you don't know how to communicate with each other and express your needs in an effective way it would spiral downward regardless of whether or not the female in the relationship is a feminist.

Disrespectful words and behaviors are not synonymous with feminism.Just a few rotten ones ruin the meaning for all.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

iBolt said:


> As I do not entirely understand the thrust of your post I'll nevertheless respond this way:
> 
> I consider it nagging when someone bangs on and on and on about something over and over again with little or no variation. "You never do rhis. You never do that. You don't make me feel this or that. I wonder what I am left fighting for. You are not putting in the same effort into this marriage. You don't love me tje same way that I love you. .." sometimes at 1am. Kids are sleeping. I really want to sleep also. If I dare go to sleep it would be because I am selfish and my sleep os more important than she is. She does this comparison thing often aimed at letting me know that I am choosing work, sleep, kids, my family or my need for space over her therefore meaning she doesn't matter
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The "you never" statements are so detrimental.Instead of expressing her needs in "I" statements she's choosing to use statements that allow her to be angry rather than choosing statements that might show her emotional vulnerability.
Saying "I need you to do this or that for me" is much scarier and more emotionally open than saying "you never do this or that for me".


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## evenstar (Jul 26, 2013)

I agree with Scarlet, the anger is to hide vulnerability. I am sure she matters very much to you, but if she feels like you're not on her side, like she doesn't matter, then fighting gets your attention. That has worked for her so far, right?

My husband and I, before we married, went to counseling because we were in much that same place - we loved each other but were fighting anyway. We had to learn what the anger meant (a defense against vulnerability) and the vulnerability was because we cared very much about the relationship. If you both didn't care, there would be nothing to fight about, right?

If I was nagging my husband I hope he would tell me to cut it out. (He would, actually, because he is direct and alpha in that way, and I respect him for it.) Nagging is rude. So is not holding up your end of a bargain. If you're holding up your end, there's nothing to fight about. So don't get sucked into fighting with her. Try something different any time you feel like a fight might start. 

She has to be willing to examine her own thought process. I hope she will do that for you.


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## iBolt (Aug 28, 2012)

evenstar said:


> I agree with Scarlet, the anger is to hide vulnerability. I am sure she matters very much to you, but if she feels like you're not on her side, like she doesn't matter, then fighting gets your attention. That has worked for her so far, right?
> 
> My husband and I, before we married, went to counseling because we were in much that same place - we loved each other but were fighting anyway. We had to learn what the anger meant (a defense against vulnerability) and the vulnerability was because we cared very much about the relationship. If you both didn't care, there would be nothing to fight about, right?
> If I was nagging my husband I hope he would tell me to cut it out. (He would, actually, because he is direct and alpha in that way, and I respect him for it.) Nagging is rude. So is not holding up your end of a bargain. If you're holding up your end, there's nothing to fight about. So don't get sucked into fighting with her. Try something different any time you feel like a fight might start.
> ...


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

iBolt said:


> Most common are that I never touch her, compliment her. I don't love her/show it, I make her feel she is a burden. I do not value her, I don't support her and I am not her friend.
> 
> I clearly don't see it this way. There is honestly not a week that goes by where there isn't a complaint about something I do or don't do and how I end up making her feel. She used to complain about me not buying her flowers or


It’s very easy in marriage for a couple to get into this mode. The two of you are not empathetic to each other so you cannot see the other’s point of view a legitimate. On top of that it sounds like the both of you have problems expressing what you want/need. 

She is definitely telling you what she wants/needs. But she’s doing it in a way that is a HUGE turn off. And she’s frustrated because the more she tell you what she wants/needs the more turned off and upset you get with her.

You clearly do not get that it’s your job to fill her needs. She wants gifts {Flowers} so you get them for her but you don’t get it. She probably picks up on the insincerity you express here about the gift of flowers. The flowers are not the point. The point is she wants a man who feels like giving her flowers and gifts. She wants a man who has a sparkly in his eye when he gives her a gift because pleasing her is what puts that sparkle in his eye. Clearly pleasing her does not please you. She gets that. That why it’s not enough. She does not know how to express to you what why gifts are one of her love languages.

Here’s a book that will help you understand where she needs and why. You also have love languages so you need to identify yours as well for her to address. 

The 5 Love Languages: The Secret to Love That Lasts

Words of Affirmation
Quality Time
Gifts {Her desire for flowers fits here}
Acts of Service
Physical Touch {another one of her needs}


"The Five Love Languages" Explained

Apparently gifts are one of her love languages. 




iBolt said:


> not helping enough with the kids. Me doing so will show love and respect. For the record, I have always been a totally hands on dad. I bath, cook, clean, read, talk and play with my kids very regularly. Though frustrated by her judgement that I wasn't doing enough, I carried on doing more.


She has a legitimate gripe here. The 3 children, all under the age of 10 are YOUR children from a previous marriage. They are not her children. She has zero responsibility to be taking care of your children. So when you say she wants you to help more it’s very telling. You want her to take the major responsibly for YOUR children and then you can be the great dad who “helps” and is “hands on”. This is not how it works. You need to take full responsibility for YOUR children. She can help you with your children when she feels generous.

From your other threads is sounds like one of the main reasons that you married her is for you to have a replacement mother/care-taker for your children.

Get some good books on step parenting, you can both read them. Then go to a MC who specializes in blended families and figure out how to manage work out a compromise. But you are going to have to take on the major responsibility for caring for and raising YOUR children.



iBolt said:


> I started buying flowers (not the cheap stuff) and I'd write thank you notes on them each month. I thought doing these, despite work commitments and me staying home when she travels abroad for 2-3 weeks for her job was all show of support, respect and love but no. These were not going to be enough.


From this and your other thread, you see her traveling for work as her unfairly leaving you along to take care of YOUR children. If she were not in your life you would be alone raising your children. You are NOT doing her any favors or showing her any support by you taking care of your own children when she travels for work. You are only doing what you need to do for yourself and for your children.


iBolt said:


> Other things soon creep up. I honestly do not get what flowers do for her but I buy them anyways.


But you buy then with a negative attitude. She probably gets this.


iBolt said:


> Recently, she wrote an email complaining about me taking her parking spot in front of the house. She figured that it was a show of disrespect and lack of courtesy since this space was closer to the front door. Though I couldn't get this logic, I moved my car and parked it where it's normally parked.


Could this be a safety issue for her? Does she come home after dark and wants to make the walk from her car to the front door as short as possible for safety reasons? 


iBolt said:


> We have had fights about me walking ahead of her in public, me switching positions as soon as she starts talking, say while in the kitchen; or even me not staring at her when she is talking.


Why would you walk ahead of her in public? This can be very disrespectful. 
She wants your attention when she’s talking to you. That makes sense. If you cannot pay attention to her when she’s talking, ask her to give you a bit until you can be free to pay attention to her. This is an issue of respect on intimacy.


iBolt said:


> I know that I am not the most tactile person going and I just like my own space once in a while. I have expressed this to her and even shared feelings about it. I am pretty upset because I know how difficult our marriage has been for me (and no doubt for her too). After the last separation and her saying she was going to file for divorce, things have not been the same for me.


Another excuse. She needs touch, she told you that she needs touch. It’s a very real human need. As her husband it’s your responsibility to find a way to give her the touch (intimacy) that she needs.


iBolt said:


> I have told her that I am really struggling to trust her again as I am tired of the upheavals these fights, tantrums, outbursts of crying in the middle of the night when kids are asleep and separations etc have had wreaked in my life. This was not what I anticipated coming into a second marriage for me and my 3kids for whom I have full custody. I had no problems taking care of them myself.


Then take care of your children yourself and quit expecting her to take care of them.. 
Either your wife is a horrible person who is a black hole of need and demands, or she is a woman who got in over her head when she married you and she cannot figure out who to make this marriage work. Which is it? Since the two of you have really done nothing to address your problems.. like not gone to MC or how to structure a blended family, not looked into how to communicate better and fill each other’s needs, I get the impression that she’s a good person who does not know how to handle the situation she’s in. Just as I assume you are a good person who does not know how to handle the situation you are in.

Besides the books on love languages and step-parenting/blended-families you would both benefit by reading and doing the work from the books “His Needs, Her Needs” and “Love Busters”.


iBolt said:


> I just do not understand how or why one would have such a huge list of demands which if you don't meet must automatically mean you don't love them. Everything I do or don't do is yet another evidence of whether I love her or not. This is just suffocating and soul destroying since I know that I am trying my best though some of what she needs do not come naturally to me and some of what she has clearly said she needed during therapy - I am doing.
> Now I just don't believe that there is anything I can do that can fill the void she has. I am RAPIDLY losing any desire to try anymore.


Get the books, read them, do the work as a couple. If that does not fix things then divorce.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

iBolt said:


> As I do not entirely understand the thrust of your post I'll nevertheless respond this way:
> 
> I consider it nagging when someone bangs on and on and on about something over and over again with little or no variation. "You never do rhis. You never do that. You don't make me feel this or that. I wonder what I am left fighting for. You are not putting in the same effort into this marriage. You don't love me tje same way that I love you. .." sometimes at 1am. Kids are sleeping. I really want to sleep also. If I dare go to sleep it would be because I am selfish and my sleep os more important than she is. She does this comparison thing often aimed at letting me know that I am choosing work, sleep, kids, my family or my need for space over her therefore meaning she doesn't matter


Her tactics are wrong. She would just walk and leave you since you do not seem to care all that much about her needs.

She sees it as trying so hard to tell you what she needs. She's hurting. Do you think she should just stop telling you and live emotional pain?

All the badgering, nagging, etc. 

That poster your responded to here gave you a very valid thing to think about. Your response as to just ignore it and to continue to bad mouth your wife here. You have been bad mouthing her for a while in all your threads.

You need to look at yourself a bit more to see your part in the issues in your marriage. (and she needs to do the same thing from about herself.)


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

GTdad said:


> Feminism isn't even a factor here as far as I can see, and I wouldn't call her a "man-hater" based on the evidence.
> 
> What your wife is is a self-absorbed princess, about the farthest thing from a true feminist as I can imagine.
> 
> ...


:iagree:

I doubt very much that feminism is the root cause of the problems in your relationship, but lack of effective communication is.

You and your W might consider MC if you want to save your relationship - and you might want to do this sooner rather than later, because all this bickering in front of the children will be affecting them badly...


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## LoveAtDaisys (Jul 3, 2013)

VermisciousKnid said:


> Interesting and honest take on the situation. My question is: Would MC address her control issues or is IC really the thing for that? Wouldn't someone with control issues just attempt to control their spouse through MC?


For me, a combination of both; I've been to IC, I've been in CBT and gone through Mind Over Matter courses, and I've done MC. MC and Mind Over Matter, for me, were the most helpful.

MC helped give me effective tools for learning to talk to my husband. It taught me that when I'm mad I need not to externalize my anger ("You piss me off/you make me mad") but own it ("I feel angry because"). It gave me the tools to more effectively express my feelings, which I'm not very good at.

Mind Over Matter helped me get to the bottom of my anger, and learn to analyze it and better communicate WHY I was mad. Instead of saying "You didn't do the dishes today?!" (and nagging  ) I learned to say "I am angry at you because you didn't do the dishes when you told me you would. I feel like when you don't do things you tell me you will do you don't care about my wants and desires". It's a fascinating book and I highly recommend it for anybody struggling as I do with anger management or anxiety/stress 

I still slip up a LOT. Half the time I'll catch myself communicating ineffectively and have to start over. But with practice it's getting a whole lot easier.

But I can also say that until I really started to WORK on these things and put these tools into practice, they were useless. Which is why I caution the OP: if your wife WANTS to change and WANTS to work on her control issues, this can help. But it's only if she wants to change and if you want to put up with it. Otherwise VK is right, and it will become a fight of "well, the counselor said you had to do x, so you need to do x!"


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## Jung_admirer (Jun 26, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> You need to look at yourself a bit more to see your part in the issues in your marriage. (and she needs to do the same thing from about herself.)


Yep, that's what IC is all about. MC can wait until your wife understands more about her fear/anxiety and you understand why you are enabling it.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Jung_admirer said:


> Yep, that's what IC is all about. MC can wait until your wife understands more about her fear/anxiety and you understand why you are enabling it.


I think that they need some MC now so that he has a safe place to talk about her badgering him. Then the counselor can tell her that it's not the way to handle this and to get help for herself.


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## iBolt (Aug 28, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> It’s very easy in marriage for a couple to get into this mode. The two of you are not empathetic to each other so you cannot see the other’s point of view a legitimate. On top of that it sounds like the both of you have problems expressing what you want/need.
> 
> She is definitely telling you what she wants/needs. But she’s doing it in a way that is a HUGE turn off. And she’s frustrated because the more she tell you what she wants/needs the more turned off and upset you get with her.
> 
> ...


Elegirl. Thanks for your insight. I cannot say I agre with much of it. 

For example. If the kids were hers I would treat them like mine. I do not expect her to be their mum. They DO have a mum already. I did not marry someone to look after my kids. Their mum was a SAHM. My wife now isn't and I am TOTALLY cool with this. I drop what needs dropping for my family. .gosh if only you knew!

As per 5 love languages. I have read the book. I hate it. It is overly simplistic and has an inverted logic in my view. It says nothing about people who like to have their own space once in a while. Human beings are more complex than 5 categories. The book in a round about way also says to couples "to hell with how your partner makes an effort to please you IF it ain't the way you like it done. There's nothing cute about him cleaning the house from top to bottom, preparing a fancy meal and taking on a second job because of your desires. UNLESS he strokes you and salivates over you after buying you gifts, it's all BS
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jung_admirer (Jun 26, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> I think that they need some MC now so that he has a safe place to talk about her badgering him. Then the counselor can tell her that it's not the way to handle this and to get help for herself.


I would support this approach if she refused IC for herself (probably a good chance of that). It is not helpful to use a MC therapist to support one partner's side of the story ("She's treating me badly, tell her she needs help"). Good therapy supports honest emotional communication, sometimes with the therapist as a conduit. IC often precedes because one or both partners need to understand their emotional needs before they can ask a partner to help meet them. Controlling behaviors are a manifestation of fear ... OK, fear of what? abandonment? Loss of self? Hopelessness? Worthlessness? 

We see a partner acting reflexively based on a solidly internalized fear. The coping response we are calling "nagging" in this thread. IC or MC that leads to IC, it's all OK. Should one partner fail to cleanup their side of the street ... Well, we talk about the three options then, don't we?


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## LoveAtDaisys (Jul 3, 2013)

On 5 Love Languages:

I agree it's very simplistic. It's meant to be! It's not meant as a "follow these steps exactly" sort of model, but rather a conversation starter.

I am very much an Acts of Service or Quality Time person. Do I appreciate when my husband buys me gifts or compliments me? Of course! But for me, if those two types of love are neglected, *I* feel neglected. I feel much more appreciated and loved when my husband surprises me with a clean house, or plans a date for me. Everyone's different. He isn't really a Gifts person, for example, so I thought I was showing my love by surprising him with gifts when I wasn't! It was through talking about this though that I was able to learn what he would prefer.

I feel like the point of the 5 Languages isn't to be able to say "well, *I* am a x love language, so if you don't do y, I won't feel loved, neiner neiner neiner". Rather, it's a way to learn what makes the other tick and how to make you happy.

You "sound" a little angry as well, mentioning "fancy meals" and "second job for her desires" and "stroking and salivating". That's not what love is, or what giving each other gifts is. I buy my husband a frozen burrito on occasion and pop it in the freezer. He absolutely loves them but we don't usually have them in the house because they're so horribly unhealthy. That 79-cent burrito? That's a gift! Sometimes I'll take him out to dinner. I got lucky, I found a man who is crazy for Taco Bell. That's his fancy date-night right there!

If your wife has expensive taste, you don't have to always buy her expensive things. And if she's only happy if you ARE buying expensive things all the time, then it's time for reconsideration in the relationship. But maybe give what I'm suggesting a try, you might find it works for you.


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## iBolt (Aug 28, 2012)

LoveAtDaisys said:


> On 5 Love Languages:
> 
> I agree it's very simplistic. It's meant to be! It's not meant as a "follow these steps exactly" sort of model, but rather a conversation starter.
> 
> ...


Sorry if I came across angry or petulant. EleGirl's underlying assumptions and post just caught me in a state. I think it was she who posted on another poat of mine suggesting that my wife has zero financial responsibility towards our family and especially the 3 kids. Even though she works, all her salary remains in her US bank account. All of mine goes to pay for 97% of our family expenditure in the UK where we live. We don't need her income as mine suffices but the principle remains. ..that's another story.

Re 5LLs. I particularly hate the book because I feel I was forced to read it. I had a heck of a lot going on at the time and she kept hounding me if I had read it. In fact, I think we were separated at the time amd she sort of said to me "if you love me or think my opinions matter, you would read the book". So I did. While I got the general premise of it which I think are good i.e speaking mandarin to someone who only understands English is not a good way of getting along etc I just think on the flip side it paid such little attention if any at all to the heart felt and sincere efforts that the other person might be making to make their partner happy. It is in my view a form of selfishness to say "unless I get what I need the way I want it, your efforts are less meaningful". Surely couples should be looking to be kind, patient and respectful of each other instead of looking to see how well their love language is being met.

I don't like killing spiders but she can't stand these creatures. Whose love language needs to be met here? So sadly and admittedly, I have a baggage when it comes to this book particularly.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## iBolt (Aug 28, 2012)

My wife is a great girl. She is very intelligent, smart and good looking. However, she is EXTREMELY intense about women's rights. So much so that I've heard her tell my 3 kids ( while we drove past a group young girls scantily dressed) that men 'consume' women and women dress the way they do because men encourage it. It totally put a guilt trip on my eldest son who is going on 10. He is now so hypersensitive to women's dressing standard. 

This intensity also plays into the walking literally a few feet in front of her. She has issues with the Muslim faith because of the way women are treated. As far as she is concerned me walking ahead of her is what Afghan men do to their wives. Heck nearly every perceived difference somehow finds its way into my disrespect for her as a woman and as my wife. I end up feeling like a neanderthal. 

She is definitely an Alpha female. I am an alpha male. I run my own business employing 60+ plus people and I also work in parliament (part time). I think we both pull our weight domestically. I make sure to thank her often for preparing meals and I make sure that if she cooks, I do the dishes. These are things shessaid she wanted us to do. Despite my work and she mostly working from home, I arrive 30 minutes late to office daily because I do school runs. This made her feel we were sharing.

However, I am not an emotional waterfall capable of endless outpourings of affection. I try sometimes and it feels good cos she's happy but it's just not second nature to me. Surely this does not make me a negligent or bad husband.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

iBolt said:


> Elegirl. Thanks for your insight. I cannot say I agre with much of it.
> 
> For example. If the kids were hers I would treat them like mine. I do not expect her to be their mum. They DO have a mum already. I did not marry someone to look after my kids. Their mum was a SAHM. My wife now isn't and I am TOTALLY cool with this. I drop what needs dropping for my family. .gosh if only you knew!
> 
> ...


How many hours a week do you spend doing things with your wife, just the two of you? I mean date-like things that both of you enjoy?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

iBolt said:


> Sorry if I came across angry or petulant. EleGirl's underlying assumptions and post just caught me in a state. I think it was she who posted on another poat of mine suggesting that my wife has zero financial responsibility towards our family and especially the 3 kids. Even though she works, all her salary remains in her US bank account. All of mine goes to pay for 97% of our family expenditure in the UK where we live. We don't need her income as mine suffices but the principle remains. ..that's another story.


That’s right, legally and morally your wife has 0% financial responsibility for your children. She does have financial responsibility for herself and for a portion of the joint martial bills. But no, not for your children. 

This is stuff you discuss BEFORE you get married. You apparently married her and assumed an awful lot. Why did you marry someone whose idea of how to blend a family is completely different than yours? 



iBolt said:


> Re 5LLs. I particularly hate the book because I feel I was forced to read it. I had a heck of a lot going on at the time and she kept hounding me if I had read it. In fact, I think we were separated at the time amd she sort of said to me "if you love me or think my opinions matter, you would read the book". So I did. While I got the general premise of it which I think are good i.e speaking mandarin to someone who only understands English is not a good way of getting along etc I just think on the flip side it paid such little attention if any at all to the heart felt and sincere efforts that the other person might be making to make their partner happy. It is in my view a form of selfishness to say "unless I get what I need the way I want it, your efforts are less meaningful". Surely couples should be looking to be kind, patient and respectful of each other instead of looking to see how well their love language is being met.
> 
> I don't like killing spiders but she can't stand these creatures. Whose love language needs to be met here? So sadly and admittedly, I have a baggage when it comes to this book particularly.


So you are not willing to work on your marriage. You have come here several times and tried to make your wife sound like a crazy woman who an unreasonable woman who expects you to jump through unreasonable hoops. But the more you post, the more we find out that a large part of the issue is that you want her to live by the way you think things should. And you don’t want to give consideration to her side of things.

At this point I’d say just divorce her. Then the next time you find some woman you want to marry, discuss all this before marriage. Tell her that you expect her to help you financially support your children out what you consider to be the principle of things. And fill her in on your attitude about meeting her needs.


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## iBolt (Aug 28, 2012)

I do not count the hours. But I do know that every Friday kids are at their mum's we go out on a date. Evening times are spent together chilling (when we are not fighting). Sometimes during the week, we get babysitter and then go out on a date. I don't count the hours nor do I think it to be necessary.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

iBolt said:


> This intensity also plays into the walking literally a few feet in front of her.


Why do you walk a few feet in front of your wife?



iBolt said:


> Despite my work and she mostly working from home, I arrive 30 minutes late to office daily because I do school runs. This made her feel we were sharing.


They are your children. Yet you are upset with her about this? They are not her children. If you were not married to her you would be doing school runs as well.


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## iBolt (Aug 28, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> That’s right, legally and morally your wife has 0% financial responsibility for your children. She does have financial responsibility for herself and for a portion of the joint martial bills. But no, not for your children.
> 
> This is stuff you discuss BEFORE you get married. You apparently married her and assumed an awful lot. Why did you marry someone whose idea of how to blend a family is completely different than yours?
> 
> ...


I do hope you read my posts accurately before giving your very standard responses about zero responsibilities. If i was to pursue this logic, she would technically be fine just cooking meals for herself but not the children because they are "morally and legally not her responsibility". Perhaps you are writing from personal experience, I will give you the benefit of the doubt. Because I can't stand 5LL suddenly means I don't want to work on my marriage? ! Great for you if that works for your relationship. I'd rather talk with an MC & IC which we have both done pretty much throughout our marriage. 

So I come to TAM not to paint my wife as a crazy person as you keep repeating, but rather to find out if what I am experiencing is unique and get ideas for fixing if fixable. Some ideas will be realistic and some not. 

We can perhaps agree that I assumed a lot before marrying her but her being a replacement mum was not one of them. I did assume that I was not going to marry someone who will become my mum and tell me off when I don't meet her standard. Oh I also never assumed that my wife will see my live for her as being in competition with my children, jobs, sleep, family etc but then we all assume things before going into a marriage right?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## iBolt (Aug 28, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> Why do you walk a few feet in front of your wife?
> 
> 
> They are your children. Yet you are upset with her about this? They are not her children. If you were not married to her you would be doing school runs as well.



1) How pedantic do you want me to be about this? I walk in front of her because she walks slowly at times. She walks in front of me sometimes because I walked slowly and sometimes we synchronise our steps just right. The more serious answer is that on this occasion, I was just walking and she fell behind. I certainly wasn't being rude or chauvinistic. There was no reason to it.

2) WHERE IN THE WORLD WIDE WEB DID YOU READ THAT I WAS "UPSET WITH HER ABOUT" DOING SCHOOL RUNS. In case you're not aware, the what if scenario does not apply. We ARE married. If we were not married she would have to pay her own bills but guess what, she doesn't because we're married.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## iBolt (Aug 28, 2012)

PS EleGirl the reason why I bring up the things that I do is to avoid folks on here thinking I simply married my wife to look after my children while I puty feet up as some men do - waiting for their meal. I also mention what I am doing because these are things she has said she loves in a man nut there are other things she likes which do not come naturally to me and are very much a work in progress. I just don't appreciate everything else I do being devalued because I am not great at others.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

iBolt said:


> My wife is a great girl. She is very intelligent, smart and good looking. However, she is EXTREMELY intense about women's rights. So much so that I've heard her tell my 3 kids ( while we drove past a group young girls scantily dressed) that men 'consume' women and women dress the way they do because men encourage it. It totally put a guilt trip on my eldest son who is going on 10. He is now so hypersensitive to women's dressing standard.


Guilt-tripping is a staple of feminism and manipulators in general, and one of the insights is the ability to turn anything good into a bad thing with the magic of pejorative rhetoric.

The human body is a beautiful piece of art, celebrated from antiquity in nude statues or paintings of the masters worth millions of dollars. A malicious person can point to the Venus de Milo and call the artist a pervert or go off on how some poor peasant girl was exploited, standing nude for hours, or whatever. It doesn't take any intelligence to do this. What it takes is malice.

Same thing with fashion or bikinis on the beach. Look what your wife chose as the thing that is the core evil: something being done to _please men_. 

With that as an article of faith, how can such a person make a decent wife? I see your list of positives are that she is intelligent and attractive. So was Ted Bundy. He had a little attitude problem with women, sure - but other than that he was a great guy. Law School, Governor's Assistant, Crisis Line Counselor, Charming...

I didn't see you listing the things she does to make you happy. You are getting this lecturing about reading the five love languages not to have her gain insights on how to make you happy, but only to have you make up for your shortcoming in not hugging this porcupine enough. 

So this woman who thinks doing things to make men happy is such a horrible thing... what does she actually do for you to make you happy? I don't mean something that she does for herself that indirectly benefits you. I mean examples of you actually being some kind of priority for her and doing it for _you_.


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## pink_lady (Dec 1, 2012)

I have to say it sounds to me like OP is engaging in classic passive-aggressive/emotionally unavailable behavior with his wife, and her anger and frustration are escalating, as always happens with the spouse of a P-A person.


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

iBolt you don't sound like an unreasonable man to me. Even with your positives that you find and list of your wife... I still can't imagine how life is with her. She's not the most rational from the picture you paint.

Wiserforit has a great assessment. I tend to agree with it. This lady is a piece of work... I'm not sure how you managed to marry such a woman other than her maddening ideals were at some level attractive to you in the beginning. 

For what it's worth, telling her she's nagging isn't sexist IMO. It just happens to be one of the ways to describe women in their interactions with men. I don't know any men that do it... but there are exceptions. I think she tries so hard to be unique that calling her nagging has pigeonholed her in her mind. Either way... your life with her sounds quite colorful.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

I don't like the word nagging because I think it's often used to trivialise legitimate or understandable complaints from women towards men. 

But that really seems like the least of your issues.


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## iBolt (Aug 28, 2012)

pink_lady said:


> I have to say it sounds to me like OP is engaging in classic passive-aggressive/emotionally unavailable behavior with his wife, and her anger and frustration are escalating, as always happens with the spouse of a P-A person.


She calls me passive aggressive regularly. I am very much one who'd rather avoid confrontation. I am happy talking about things but not arguing. My wife is a VERY detail oriented person. Things must be discussed to its last iota. More often than not, it's a case of you've done this or you don't do that. 

My reaction used to be to try and give evidence of the things I do do because it really hurts when the "always" word comes out. So when I feel we're just going round in circles and the victim mentality starts to get too much for me - oh and that's before the tears start to roll, I just shut down. It becomes too much for me. Perhaps that's a weakness on my part. As i shut down, she gets even more upset that I am trying to control the discussion, accusing me of 'abandonment and rejection' which are highly charged accusations in my book.

All I am doing is trying to avoid more argument. I even say things like "I am sorry but I really need to stop talking now as I feel things are getting a little out of control. I am starting to feel upset and I really do not wish to fight, so I will leave the room. I am not isolating myself - I just don't want to argue'

Our therapist asked me to do this as signal that I am not rejecting or abandoning her - but it does not work. I get accused of controlling the discussion and that 'she is my equal' etc I honestly do not know how equality comes into this. I am just trying avoid more argument.

My belief is that my wife, as smart, attractive and intelligent as she is, her sense of insecurity and intensity for women's issues underpins a lot of the problems in our marriage. My inability to deal with these make it worse. I try to reassure, be more intimate and sacrifice but nothing changes. I cannot recollect her saying she wants to go and see our MC alone for an IC session. I do cos I know I need to learn better coping strategies.

She is a good woman, but I just don't have enough water to fill this well - at least that is a conclusion i have come to.


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## iBolt (Aug 28, 2012)

Lyris said:


> I don't like the word nagging because I think it's often used to trivialise legitimate or understandable complaints from women towards men.
> 
> But that really seems like the least of your issues.


I assure you that I am not using the word lightly. I don't even remember ever using it before. That said, I apologised to her last night for my choice of word and that I am sorry if it hurt her feelings. I also expressed sadness for the difficulties I have posed to her over the 21months of our marriage. 

A huge row then ensues because she asked me if I was looking at other women. I make every effort to avoid ANY flirting or even anything close to it. Anyways, she stormed out of the bedroom around 10pm and went to sleep downstairs.

In the early part of our marriage, I would chase after her but I soon felt I was being manipulated, so I stopped doing so. She can sleep wherever she wants -It's her choice.

The AT 3:30AM (I was fast asleep) and she storms into the room wanting to talk. She asked me "So when did you stop loving me?" I said, "Please I need to get some sleep. It's 3:30 anyway, your question suggest that I have stopped". Eventually, she kept asking all these questions and then finished by saying

"This is your second marriage. I am very different to your ex. The common denominator here is you. So if you think the grass is greener on the other side, you are wrong. You should look in the mirror" She had earlier told me she was the best thing that ever happened to me - which to a Brit smacked of immense hubris.

Anyway, she went on and on, refusing my request to let me sleep because I had to answer her questions. Eventually, i had to do what the MC asked me to do as signal. Her response was that I was threatening her. I just wanted to sleep as normal folks do at around 4am.

So I had no choice but to leave the room and sleep downstairs. She then starts crying which I could hear from living room. Kids as usual, came downstairs at around 7am. Thus ended my sleep


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Don't recall if you mentioned your wife's age, but is it possible that she is in perimenopause? For me, that phase drove my husband to distraction and he had to dig deep to tolerate my mood swings. Has she had a physical lately?


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## anony2 (Apr 28, 2012)

iBolt said:


> I assure you that I am not using the word lightly. I don't even remember ever using it before. That said, I apologised to her last night for my choice of word and that I am sorry if it hurt her feelings. I also expressed sadness for the difficulties I have posed to her over the 21months of our marriage.
> 
> A huge row then ensues because she asked me if I was looking at other women. I make every effort to avoid ANY flirting or even anything close to it. Anyways, she stormed out of the bedroom around 10pm and went to sleep downstairs.
> 
> ...


Just a question(not an accusation): have you ever actually listened to your wife?

There may be a reason why she thinks that the word nagging is sexist. Most likely it would have to do with someone close to her using it in a sexist manner.

For instance: When I was growing up, my dad used to use the word "bit-ch**" and "bit-ching" towards my mom and would say things like "all women do is ***** ***** ***** ***** *****..." or "quit your *****ing woman!". So I am very sensitive to those words and when my husband uses those, I come unhinged (triggered). 

I would suggest talking her about this. There is most likely a reason why she feels the way she does and then actually listen to her and put yourself into her shoes.


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## KalmAndKollected (Sep 26, 2012)

I am truly shocked at the advise of the higher profile members here. I think they're re-reading into something else. What I see is classic PD (personality disorder). I'm sorry, but to be awaken at 03:00am to say, "when did you stop loving me?"... seriously? No need to pick a fight at 03:00am when the kids are sleeping. True, they're not her kids, but to act like that is very childish. OP, your woman is crazy, period. Ain't no 5LL going to help here. And you're right, it doesn't address personal space type of people.


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## iBolt (Aug 28, 2012)

anony2 said:


> Just a question(not an accusation): have you ever actually listened to your wife?
> 
> There may be a reason why she thinks that the word nagging is sexist. Most likely it would have to do with someone close to her using it in a sexist manner.
> 
> ...


I would be arrogant to think I fully understand her. I get the jist of her feelings. She wants to be cherished and adored. She wants to be made to feel like a million bucks and cor me to drool over her. All these I think are reasonable though at times unrealistic given the pressures of life, living and the other tensions we've experienced in our marriage. I have very clearly expressed to her MY struggles after our last separation and her desire to return to America and file for a divorce just 8-10 weeks ago. I was full of anger and resentment especially when I learned from our therapist (whom I saw alone after she returned to her parents in USA) that all these threats of divorce were effectively forms of control and manipulation. This more so because she is the person who vehemently critices any perceived sign of me trying to control things in our marriage. 

Either way, my communication did not blame her and I TOTALLY owned these as MY feelings and that they are causing me problems. This was very difficult fo for me to express.

I know what she wants but I cannot be threatened, manipulated or badgered into doing things. The one thing I got from the 5LLs book that I found most useful is that love cannot be demanded, it can only given. I even told her last week that though I have some trust issues remaining, I have noticed a major change for good. I absolutely feel no anger nor resentment anymore. I can't say I love her cos I am very confused right now. I was being very honest in owning my feelings while trying to slug ahead doing what I can.

However, and to her, I am just making excuses or I have given up. Then comes the laundry list what I don't do as evidence. She'll go on and on telling me that I don't love her as much as I do or that I am not putting in as much effort as she. I actually told her a few days ago that I am sorry for not progressing as fast as she seemingly has but I don't have a light switch to just flick. I assured her that I am trying but I don't think this matters. 

I feel hurt and become less communicative until I just can't take anymore. 

No doubt she will see things differently but either ways I jus feel down aabout this crap so much so that I found myself apologising to her last night for all the troubles I've brought into her life. Her response was "If you're struggling to tell me that you're seeing someone else or that you don't like or can't stand me just tell me" I felt a little crushed...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## iBolt (Aug 28, 2012)

FYI: My wife is 34 soon and I am 35. This is her first marriage at the age of 32 and my second. I first got married aged 24 and ddivorced just before our 8th anniversary. No affairs, DV or abuse etc. Ex had very serious mental health problems but had to secure children's safety since she persistently refused to take her medications leading to some pretty traumatic relapses.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Stonewall (Jul 5, 2011)

Nagging is not exclusive to women. I have known many men who nag. If the word nag is to abrasive for her try pester or any other word you find in the thesaurus. If you are telling the whole story there are some serious personality issues going on here.


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## Bobby5000 (Oct 19, 2011)

There are a few separate issues. 

1. Criticism of you but not her. "So tonight while a list of my ineptitudes were being thrown at me I asked her to please stop nagging me and that I don’t like the way she is talking to me. She took serious offense to the word nagging." 

According to your version, she felt free to criticize you in multiple ways and then when you make a suggestions about her, that became another criticism of you. When she talks about you, these are important suggestions for self-improvement and development as a couple, when you discuss her, that is a sexist, misogynistic male, manipulative attempt at control. 

It is understandable that you are frustrated because she has apparently created a feminist agenda as the norm and suggested that the solution for you two as a couple is to conform to it. 

2. The term nagging frequently comes up. First, women tend to want to express their feelings. They are also sometimes better organized and want to stay on top of various tasks and assume their partner will appreciate the attention. Men tend to want to confront problems less. It is no accident that women live 6-7 years longer because they are constantly on top of health issues while men may defer examination of problems. 

3. I agree the focus should be on the positive. 

4. I agree there are serious problems in this relationship. Certainly any discussions of children would be completely wrong, and you have to decide how to proceed.


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## Bobby5000 (Oct 19, 2011)

Three lashes across the head to me for failing to read the prior history and fully understand the situation. If she is involved with your three children, that is more responsibility and imposes more obligations upon her. A stepparent does have a responsibility to help raise the children and in return a smart spouse is a little easier and more accommodating. It sounds like she is a little overwhelmed and I do see a certain self-centered quality in some of your posts. 

There is a lot of work to be done and quickly dissolving the marriage is not a simple solution because you now have three children who have formed relationships to think about.


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## iBolt (Aug 28, 2012)

Bobby5000 said:


> Three lashes across the head to me for failing to read the prior history and fully understand the situation. If she is involved with your three children, that is more responsibility and imposes more obligations upon her. A stepparent does have a responsibility to help raise the children and in return a smart spouse is a little easier and more accommodating. It sounds like she is a little overwhelmed and I do see a certain self-centered quality in some of your posts.
> 
> There is a lot of work to be done and quickly dissolving the marriage is not a simple solution because you now have three children who have formed relationships to think about.


Thank you for your cerebral insights.

I totally acknowledge the immensity of the task she took on going from zero to instant mum - of three!!! She does a good job and has told me what I need to do to facilitate an equal relationship with the children. I make an effort to expressly thank her for what she does. I even go further to let her know that I value the positive contributions she has brought into the children's lives. I am not backward in expressing my empathy for the challenges these must present, some of which I just can't change.

The things though is that she comes from a VERY matriarchal home where her mum rules the roost. These aren't my words. Her parents are good people, but her mum is a very omnipresent character in the home. Consequently, she has, as I see it, tried to do the same here - even as a step parent. At first I resisted, but for peace sake, I just looked away, when she signs school activity consent forms for the kids, or impose a discipline regime that I think is a little harsh. I choose to support her decision about the kids because I know she means no harm and the kids won't die.

I think the parenting thing has gone down well. I am however concerned about a second woman (mother) exiting their life this way. I have a great relationship with the kids. We talk a lot, especially at bed times and I look for opportunities to have 1-2-1 time with each of them thus being an emotional sounding board for them. I make myself VERY available for them

The two older ones 9 and 8 have asked me if we will be getting divorced. They hear the rows, howling cries and snide remarks some time waking them up. They hear the door slamming. There have been times when she'll leave the house while kids are asleep cos she's pissed only to return a day or two later. The kids ask where she is but I can't say for sure. This has not happened recently but the memories still linger for them - and me.

Sometime last year, she said she would file for divorce in the US where we got married. I simply agreed. She then went and told the kids that I asked her for a divorce. No doubt they came to ask me why I would do that. All these crap aren't invisible to them. They know things aren't great but I just tell them we're trying to work things out. I really feel like I have messed up my kids though they seem to be fine as long as daddy is there, but the feeling of me failing them is real. This was not what I envisioned 2 yrs ago.

Either way, i would rather do something now, fix myself over time and move on. I think I am young, hardworking and decent enough of a chap.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

iBolt said:


> 1) How pedantic do you want me to be about this? I walk in front of her because she walks slowly at times. She walks in front of me sometimes because I walked slowly and sometimes we synchronise our steps just right. The more serious answer is that on this occasion, I was just walking and she fell behind. I certainly wasn't being rude or chauvinistic. There was no reason to it.


I asked the question to get an idea of why this is even an issue. I was wondering how often this happens and why it happens. I was making no assumptions. If this happened only one time then her making a big deal out of it is silly at best. If it happens over and over when the two of you are walking in public, then there’s an issue. I don’t know. So more info was needed.
If you walk faster than she, in the future pay attention to whether or not you are at pace with her.


iBolt said:


> 2) WHERE IN THE WORLD WIDE WEB DID YOU READ THAT I WAS "UPSET WITH HER ABOUT" DOING SCHOOL RUNS. In case you're not aware, the what if scenario does not apply.


You have brought up several times that she works at home, but you have to take your children to school and are therefore late for work. Why would you bring that up if you were not upset with her for her not doing the school runs since she’s working at home?


iBolt said:


> We ARE married. If we were not married she would have to pay her own bills but guess what, she doesn't because we're married.


I agree with you that she should be putting money into a joint account to pay her portion of the bills. But her portion does not include the monthly expenses for your children.


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## KalmAndKollected (Sep 26, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> I agree with you that she should be putting money into a joint account to pay her portion of the bills. But her portion does not include the monthly expenses for your children.


As a step-father myself, I amazed at this. I have zero financial obligation to my step-daughter?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

iBolt said:


> I do hope you read my posts accurately before giving your very standard responses about zero responsibilities. If i was to pursue this logic, she would technically be fine just cooking meals for herself but not the children because they are "morally and legally not her responsibility".


I stated that she has no legal responsibility towards your children because she does not. That’s a fact. It’s always good to start with what the facts are. Anything she chooses to do for your children is from the kindness of her heart.

I stated this because you complained that she travels and leaves you alone with the children. You have said that she complains that you do not help with the children enough, and your defense is that you are hands on dad… ignoring that the children are 100% your responsibility. She should not need to be asking you for any help at all because you should be doing it all and accepting any help she gives with graciousness.



iBolt said:


> Perhaps you are writing from personal experience, I will give you the benefit of the doubt.


My personal experience is that I was a step mother for years. Both their father and their mother dumped all responsibility on me. I have seen parents do this to step mothers many times over.



iBolt said:


> Because I can't stand 5LL suddenly means I don't want to work on my marriage? ! Great for you if that works for your relationship. I'd rather talk with an MC & IC which we have both done pretty much throughout our marriage.


Not it’s not because you cannot stand 5LL. It’s because you talked about how it angered you that she asked you to read the book. That you have distain for the idea that you might need to actually have her tell you what her needs are and you need to meet her needs. You want her to meet your needs but you are not happy about it going the other way apparently. This is what you posted. 
Your threads are filled with your refusal to look at anything from her point of ivew.



iBolt said:


> So I come to TAM not to paint my wife as a crazy person as you keep repeating, but rather to find out if what I am experiencing is unique and get ideas for fixing if fixable. Some ideas will be realistic and some not.


Your wife waking you up wanting to argue is not unique. It is also not good. It points to one of two things. Either she’s a crazy ranting nut case or she’s one very unhappy woman who cannot figure out how to fix her marriage or how to get across to him that she’s in pain in the marriage and needs him to listen to her and work with her.

I always prefer to start with the idea that both spouses are good people lost in an unhappy situation that can be turned around. Only after working from this presumption for 6 months to a year would I even start to think that either spouse is a nut case or a bad person. (This assumes no physical abuse, no drug/alcohol addictions, etc.)

So if we come from the perspective that you are both good people sadly caught up in an unhappy situation that can be fixed… her points of view and needs are as accurate as yours. 

Thing like 5LL, “His Needs, Her Needs”, “love busters” are books that are tools that couples can use to help themselves out of the pit they have dug for themselves.

If you reject all the tools that are used to help people out of the mess you are in, then you are rejecting help.


iBolt said:


> We can perhaps agree that I assumed a lot before marrying her but her being a replacement mum was not one of them. I did assume that I was not going to marry someone who will become my mum and tell me off when I don't meet her standard. Oh I also never assumed that my wife will see my live for her as being in competition with my children, jobs, sleep, family etc but then we all assume things before going into a marriage right?


Is she being your mum and telling you that you are not meeting her standard?

Or is she being a wife who is very unhappy and trying to communicate with you things that she things will fix things. I think that this is the situation. And you dismiss her trying to communicate with you. So now she is resorting to ‘nagging’, waking you up when she cannot stand her own emotional pain and trying to talk to you in the middle of the night. And that rightly bugs the hell out of you.

Your wife sounds immature in that she does not know how to set boundaries. Then if her personal boundaries are crossed, then she just needs to end the marriage. I don’t think you know how to do this either. This is why the two of you are caught in this silly dance where nothing gets solved.

Perhaps you could make a day with her where the two of you can just talk and come to compromises on some things?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

KalmAndKollected said:


> As a step-father myself, I amazed at this. I have zero financial obligation to my step-daughter?


Legally you have zero financial obligation to you step-daughter. That's right. Ask any family law attorney. How do you not know that?

I'm a step mother. I know that I have no legal responsibility to my two step children. But, even knowing this I supported them 100%. I also raised them by my self from age 10 on. This is because both of their bio parents refused to do anything. 

I'm not saying that a step parent should not participate financially with their step-children. I'm saying that they have no legal obligation. And because of this the bio-parent is wrong to just expect that the step parent has to and be angry at them if the step parent does not pay the step-children's bills. If a step-parent gives financially towards the financial upkeep of their step children they are going over and above what is required by law.

Keep in mind that if you and your wife divorce, she could make it so that you never see your step child again. You are a legal stranger to your step child. You have no legal rights. Look at your situation from that perspective for a bit.


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## iBolt (Aug 28, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> I stated that she has no legal responsibility towards your children because she does not. That’s a fact. It’s always good to start with what the facts are. Anything she chooses to do for your children is from the kindness of her heart.
> 
> *How far do you seriously want to push this premise?*
> 
> ...


I appreciate your sincere desire to help and especially playing the devil's advocate (pardon the pun; non intended), do recognise that I am coming out of a catalog of divorce threats, her packing all of her belongings out of the house and very manipulative practices which have totally shattered my heart. I had mentally and wholeheartedly prepared myself for the single life after the last separation, a vision of which felt good. There was peace in the house, kids were ok and I felt cool with things during this time.

Alas, she decided not to file after I told her to go ahead. This did something immense to me which i am still recovering from. I am trying to do what I can hoping that things get better (within me in time) but until then, I can't force the issue no matter how sad or frustrated she might be. These chain of events have had a huge impact on me hence why I am choosing to continue seeing IC


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## iBolt (Aug 28, 2012)

seagoat said:


> iBolt, I am your wife! Well, not really, but I can identify with what you wrote about her, and have to honestly admit that this was me about 15 years or so ago. And you were my H. As such, I can endorse Ele's responses to you. Please open your mind, and at least consider her feedback for a moment.
> 
> What I have not seen addressed in the replies to you is the fact that your wife is an ocean away from her home/family. I don't know for how long she has been in your part of the world. But from personal experience, I placed an extra amount of importance and weight on my marriage then, living abroad, because in terms of family, that is all I had. Pair that with a rigid idea of what that marriage, that husband should be like, and a passive-aggressive conflict avoider as a husband, and you have a recipe for disaster.
> 
> ...


Hey seagoat, many thanks for your insight. I do not suggest for one second that I am a perfect ol'chap let alone one that totally gets his wife for that matter. I do however understand and have very sincerely communicated to her that I appreciate how difficult things are for her being an ocean away from her family. My desire was for us to go spend Christmas with her parents in AZ each year of our marriage but that soon turned deeply sour after our first christmas there. After a row over something that I can't remember whilst staying at her folks (the whole family knew there was something wrong- it was just palpable) - she called me into the bedroom and asked me to leave her parents home and return to England alone. She had looked up tickets and everything. It was humiliating. She's never apologised for this but anyways,her dad intervened and refused to let me leave. 

I know things are tough for her, I hope I have tried to make that clear here. At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I will only add that my concern is that I don't know if I am able to please her the way she wants and how she wants.


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## KanDo (Jun 15, 2011)

You are being terrorized with divorce threats and 3:00 AM awakenings. You are so early in this relationship. Time to pull the rip cord.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

iBolt said:


> The two older ones 9 and 8 have asked me if we will be getting divorced. They hear the rows, howling cries and snide remarks some time waking them up. They hear the door slamming. There have been times when she'll leave the house while kids are asleep cos she's pissed only to return a day or two later. The kids ask where she is but I can't say for sure. This has not happened recently but the memories still linger for them - and me.
> 
> Sometime last year, she said she would file for divorce in the US where we got married. I simply agreed. She then went and told the kids that I asked her for a divorce. No doubt they came to ask me why I would do that. All these crap aren't invisible to them. They know things aren't great but I just tell them we're trying to work things out. I really feel like I have messed up my kids though they seem to be fine as long as daddy is there, but the feeling of me failing them is real. This was not what I envisioned 2 yrs ago.
> 
> Either way, i would rather do something now, fix myself over time and move on. I think I am young, hardworking and decent enough of a chap.


Her involving your children is a no-no and her behavior is emotionally cruel to your children. Protect your children and send her back to her parents. They need to finish raising her.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

As I recall, many of us who posted on your other thread (when the two of you were separated) felt this was over then. What happened for you to try again because it seems nothing has changed?


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## iBolt (Aug 28, 2012)

Openminded said:


> As I recall, many of us who posted on your other thread (when the two of you were separated) felt this was over then. What happened for you to try again because it seems nothing has changed?


Openminded. Ah you you again 

Thanks for your input. Answer is that like many others that I have noticed on TAM, you really hope for the best. I keep thinking something will change. A little bit more effort here and a little bit more changes there then things will get better. I read of others who stick with things and then 10 years later, things are better. I guess I just hope that mine will be the case.

Foolish optimism I guess. This has faded massively though.

I now honestly believe that we will be doing each other a favour by going our separate ways.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

iBolt said:


> Openminded. Ah you you again
> 
> Thanks for your input. Answer is that like many others that I have noticed on TAM, you really hope for the best. I keep thinking something will change. A little bit more effort here and a little bit more changes there then things will get better. I read of others who stick with things and then 10 years later, things are better. I guess I just hope that mine will be the case.
> 
> ...


Sorry to see you back here, iBolt. We are always hopeful when people leave that things are better for them. 

Yes, I think it would be better for you (and your children) to go your separate ways. I just don't think she is what you were hoping for.

The longer you drag it out, the worse it is likely to be.


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## iBolt (Aug 28, 2012)

WHY?! I am interested to know. Were you hoping that things got better or something? ?

45 years! !! That scares the life out of me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

iBolt said:


> WHY?! I am interested to know. Were you hoping that things got better or something? ?
> 
> That scares the life out of me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Smiling. It's a long story. The short version is that several decades ago he cheated and I felt I should make it work for our child's sale.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Early in our marriage I used to nag my wife about stuff.

She sat me down and told me I was making myself look like a [email protected]
I got the message, and found a better way to communicate.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

iBolt said:


> There's a long standing reality in my 19 month old marriage that is regular and that is fighting.
> 
> *You probably want to rethink this whole thing. If you do not have children yet ... DO NOT.*
> 
> ...


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Ok ... finished the thread. This does scream His Needs Her Needs. I do not think feminism has much to do with this at all. 

I do not think you guys meet each others needs at all. Delivery has everything to do with the message getting through. She may be nagging you because she is truly hurting and needs you to meet her needs. 

But you have needs too. Try doing His Needs Her Needs togther. But indeed this was in order long long long ago.


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## seagoat (Feb 4, 2012)

iBolt,

You've been married for 19 months, and have been dealing with this situation for the majority of the time. I may be asking the obvious, but why did you get married in the first place? I'm sure she did not become like this overnight, although it's not unheard of that people to a 180 turn after they get married. My STBX two days after our wedding decided that he actually does not like kissing. And so he stopped that.


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## NatashaAngel (Jul 29, 2013)

For her to be constantly complaining about what you do or don't do sounds like she's trying to get on your nerves. She might not want to be the one to end things, so she's trying to push you to do it, so it will not be her fault (in her eyes) if marriage ends if you end it.


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## iBolt (Aug 28, 2012)

Segod 

You ask a poignant question. Here is the answer. I was very glarey eyed. I had been divorced barely a year after we got married. She was the total opposite of my ex. I saw in her things my ex just didn't have. Now I know that I just chose to blatantly ignore the red flags while only focusing in the green however few. The green flags were all I could see. We argued very very often but at the same time had some laughs here and there. Lots of physical intimacy but no sex before marriage though. A friend who is a CBT told me soon after we got married and also after meeting us that he felt I had possibly "over-compensated" in my choice of spouse. 

I should have seen the signals when she was saying to me during a date in Cheesecake Factory (damn I miss that restaurant) that as a 31 year old single woman she was happy single and felt complete. She did not need a man to complete her as do many of her girlfriends. In fact, she had decided to stay single and she was cool with that. I remember thinking to myself 'then why do you want to marry me if you're just fine?' I had some fears but was emotionally very invested in our relationship. It felt like a vortex that after a point I couldn't row away from its center. 

I am kicking myself for rushing so soon into a marriage when instead I should have taken some time to figure myself out but more so now for causing so much heartache to my wife. We spoke tonight and we're pretty agreeing to call things off. She told me she hated me for quitting on our marriage, that I refused to put in any work and that she was the one that kept our marriage going. The moment she stopped giving, according to her, there was nothing left.

I was deeply hurt by these accusations but there's been a trend of hers in our marriage for her to really believe she is the only one working or sacrificing while everyone else is taking advantage of her. On this occasion though I just didn't bother defending myself by explaining what I have been doing or that due to all we've been through recently, I am going through a crisis. I just don't feel anything for the victim card anymore. It probably sounds harsh but I have become so hardened to the manipulations of the past that I am not moved by the tears, blames and accusations anymore. 

So, the short answer  is that I married too soon after a divorce without sorting out the legacy of my first marriage and better understanding myself too. So now she has turned the divorce table on me and decided that I must be the bad guy who chose to file for divorce after all she has done for me and my children. 

It's quite surreal that here is a lady who spent the first two thirds of our marriage threatening divorce every 4-6 weeks will now start pointing the finger. The saddest part of this for me is that she has failed to seriously acknowledge how these experiences have affected me even though I have tried to explain to her, she just tells me that I am making excuses and quitting on her. I give up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## iBolt (Aug 28, 2012)

NatashaAngel said:


> For her to be constantly complaining about what you do or don't do sounds like she's trying to get on your nerves. She might not want to be the one to end things, so she's trying to push you to do it, so it will not be her fault (in her eyes) if marriage ends if you end it.


Wow. First there was seagod now Angel. I am blessed

Well. I think I am there now and not too worried what anyone thinks about me for being divorced twice by the age of 35. I will move forwards focusing my attention on being happy, giving my kids all the positive energy they need (heaven knows they need some) and being a force for good in my community. Lest I forget. .and being a millionaire by the time I am 40. 

You just know when you've had enough. Sadly, I've been here before but I know I'm gonna be just fine
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

You may be right about marring to soon. You may have jumped in before you gave yourself enough time to sort out where you were emotionally and heal from that. But not so wrong about your wife. She is convinced to a fault about her positions. She is controlling and manipulative in her arguments. This is not an empathetic person. This personality makes a good zealot, not a spouse. IMHO, sorry.

You still have your children. Count your blessings.


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## NatashaAngel (Jul 29, 2013)

There is nothing wrong with learning and moving on. I'm on my fourth marriage. I'd hope it would be my last but not so sure but still working on that ( which is why I'm on here ). I never looked at my divorces being mistakes. I learned something from each and I believe that is what is important.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

iBolt said:


> FYI: My wife is 34 soon and I am 35. This is her first marriage at the age of 32 and my second. I first got married aged 24 and ddivorced just before our 8th anniversary. No affairs, DV or abuse etc. Ex had very serious mental health problems but had to secure children's safety since she persistently refused to take her medications leading to some pretty traumatic relapses.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hmmm.... Do you seek out broken people to fix?

You wife sounds like she has either a mild case of OCD or is Bipolar.

That would be two women that may have mental issues. Oh and I hate using BPD as an excuse, but with what you have written she flies off the handle too much. If you want to work on this, you guys need counseling and she needs an assessment.


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## iBolt (Aug 28, 2012)

seagoat said:


> iBolt,
> 
> You've been married for 19 months, and have been dealing with this situation for the majority of the time. I may be asking the obvious, but why did you get married in the first place? I'm sure she did not become like this overnight, although it's not unheard of that people to a 180 turn after they get married. My STBX two days after our wedding decided that he actually does not like kissing. And so he stopped that.


I think in hindsight, one of the biggest reds that I ignored was her advice to me when we were dating. She asked me to go and read The Taming of the Shrew by William Shakespeare. Because I didn't take this seriously, I just glanced over it. Now I wish I took it more seriously. I don't need that kind of challenge in my life - certainly not right now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## iBolt (Aug 28, 2012)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Hmmm.... Do you seek out broken people to fix?
> 
> You wife sounds like she has either a mild case of OCD or is Bipolar.
> 
> That would be two women that may have mental issues. Oh and I hate using BPD as an excuse, but with what you have written she flies off the handle too much. If you want to work on this, you guys need counseling and she needs an assessment.


Well I am a sucker for some things or types of people it seems. I had no way of knowing that my ex would develop such a severe case of mental health problems or that there was the family history. This was not really a deal breaker for even if I knew. The deal breaker was her refusal to take her medications despite how prone she was to relapsing and the impacts these had on the children. Scary stuff. .but I won't go into it.

My wife now has so many good points. She is great in many ways BUT I honestly feel that her intense laser like opinions which are mostly viewed through prism of feminism has caused huge chasms between us. I cannot live under such conditions. It's just too much. The honest truth now is that I am afraid of women at present. Maybe that's a good thing for me given my track record for jumping first.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## iBolt (Aug 28, 2012)

After a tense discussion yesterday in which we both figured that things wouldn't work out I met with IC today. We discussed where things were and I just flat out told her that I will be filing for a divorce next week. I feel deeply saddened even writing this but I know the alternative would be worse. She did not disagree entirely. 

I returned home and she had done a whole load of shopping etc. We didn't talk much at all.

We both sat down in the living room and after some time informed her that I will be filing the papers next week. Shockingly, her response was, "why are you waiting until next week?" I waffled and just said Ok, will do by end of the week. She replied "Go ahead". Then in no time she starts sobbing. I had to leave the house to go to the gym instead. 

So she has me exactly where she wanted me but quite frankly I am no longer fussed about what anyone thinks or says about me. I feel sad very sad but I will NOT do the same thing she did to me by making this a threat. It has to be done but this is tough and it ain't even started yet.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

There is a lot of emotion involved in filing for divorce and you have to be tough (as you probably discovered with your first divorce). Your wife wants you to cave in and be exactly what she wants you to be -- not what you really are. That's what the sobbing is about (in my opinion). You aren't playing by her rules and she doesn't like it.

If you are going to get this done with a minimum of emotion on her part, you will have to really detach from her.


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## seagoat (Feb 4, 2012)

iBolt said:


> After a tense discussion yesterday in which we both figured that things wouldn't work out I met with IC today. We discussed where things were and I just flat out told her that I will be filing for a divorce next week. I feel deeply saddened even writing this but I know the alternative would be worse. She did not disagree entirely.
> 
> I returned home and she had done a whole load of shopping etc. We didn't talk much at all.
> 
> ...


She's testing you. Don't threaten, follow through. And then stay the heck away from women for until you figured out went wrong here. Were you blinded by her looks?


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

Not if she's nagging....

the woodchuck


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

How do you ask a man to quit from nagging you?


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## iBolt (Aug 28, 2012)

I hate myself being like this. Detached, cold and emotionless. This must be what a psycopath feels like. I talk with her but feel absolutely nothing. When she was crying I felt nothing. I really believe I have turned a corner now and it's just going to be torture until proceedings are finalised.

I am sleeping in the living room while she in the bedroom. I am cool with this. At least I don't have to listen to someone complain at me for sleeping with my back turned to her. Heaven knows I will tough this one out - God help me


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## iBolt (Aug 28, 2012)

treyvion said:


> How do you ask a man to quit from nagging you?


1. Ok, hun. I heard you
2. You're probably right but I did hear everything you said
3. I HEARD YOU THE FIRST TIME NOW SHUT UP. I'm going for a walk


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

iBolt said:


> 1. Ok, hun. I heard you
> 2. You're probably right but I did hear everything you said
> 3. I HEARD YOU THE FIRST TIME NOW SHUT UP. I'm going for a walk


I was saying the way you should be able to ask a man to stop nagging you should be the same way you ask a woman to stop nagging you.


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## iBolt (Aug 28, 2012)

seagoat said:


> She's testing you. Don't threaten, follow through. And then stay the heck away from women for until you figured out went wrong here. Were you blinded by her looks?


I missed out the word 'NOT' in my earlier post. I meant to state that I do not want to do the same thing she did to me by making this a threat. I honestly pray that more couples will understand how deadly threats of divorce can be to their marriage - if crap like that goes on.

As per the looks, possibly but more the stark difference in exposure, intelligence and outgoingness to my ex-wife. She was assertive whilst my ex was the opposite. I basically overcompensated and didn't 'see the wood for the trees' as we say in England. I will never date a self proclaimed feminist again in my life. It was a BIG mistake.


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## iBolt (Aug 28, 2012)

treyvion said:


> I was saying the way you should be able to ask a man to stop nagging you should be the same way you ask a woman to stop nagging you.


..then same rules apply. The age of chivalry has ended. The time of equality has begun


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

iBolt said:


> I will never date a self proclaimed feminist again in my life. It was a BIG mistake.


Worth quoting. 

I realize this is the low point for you. It is always darkest before the dawn. But after you are free of this and have a woman who thinks marriage is team work, this will be a distant memory.

Or maybe you'll be hit by a bus tomorrow, who knows. Hope things improve for you. Better to be single than in a bad marriage.


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## iBolt (Aug 28, 2012)

UPDATE

I filed the divorce papers yesterday. It was a very hard thing. I kept thinking that I might be making the wrong decision and that I may live to regret what I am doing. I mean, how will the kids react when she's gone? Will they ever trust another woman again or will they end developing attachment issues as they get older? It was horrible. I even thought of the good times and fun things all of which made me start thinking "Just give things another chance. Things eventually get better etc"

Something remarkable then happened. I saw a picture in my head of the constant battles, disagreements, intensely manipulative and controlling moments with her - I knew this was the right thing to do. I cannot say I am 100% certain but then, neither am I with many things in my life. 

Now today there was another big-ish row in front of the kids. She told me in front of my 4 year old son that I was "acting like a 4 year old" and then just before dinner she got mad for something I lost sight of telling me that I am immature - this time as the 3 kids were sat down for dinner. It was the last straw for me. I left for the gym instead of staying behind and fighting. The kids sense the tension in the house and they know or sense something is amiss.

When I got back from the gym, my 8 year old daughter stuck a note on my home office computer saying "Dad, we don't want you and W to get divorced. We love you both". The emotions were overwhelming. I have tried avoiding their questions for now but wife and I have agreed to tell them the bad news tomorrow. 

I feel quite torn about this but I will not turn back. We will all be better off
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

You will not regret divorce iBolt because it does have to happen but you'll still feel bad that your kids have a split family. You already determined that living the rest of your life in this marriage just won't work and you're right.

Good luck. There's no excuse for not being with a more compatible partner next time. You see the qualities and character traits that you can't handle now.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

It's better for you and the children to face this now than later. Many people push it off into the future thinking there will be a better time to do it. There isn't. It's always difficult to do. Better to face it head-on.


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## iBolt (Aug 28, 2012)

UPDATE:

Well it is done now! It was very tough but I sat through seeing my kids cry and my STBX (sheesh) cry in front of the kids while I maintained a sort of psychopathic stiff upper lip. I suggested that we do not use the word 'divorce' but rather splitting up. The 'D' word already does something for them. i just wanted to not make this an overly emotionally charged discussion..

I told the kids that I knew they will be upset and sad. I also sought to let them know that it was not their fault and there was nothing they could do to change the situation. I said sorry to them several times for this and validated their tears. I totally meant it too. I knew that if I broke down in tears, it would make the moment much more emotionally sticky long term. BTW, I am not one of these guys that doesn't cry (they've seen me do so before) but on this occasion, I felt it was essential I held myself together even though I was falling apart inside.

I was upset about my wife's comment while having this discussion. I just started talking about the split-up in a matter of fact but serious manner. She then interjects saying "Look, I don't think it is fair to be so laid back about this. This is a serious thing. Marriage is meant to last forever *but this is the second time a mother is going out of your life AND YOU WILL HAVE TO PAY FOR THIS"* 

I was livid but looked at the kids' reaction. My 9 year old boy grimaced in a confused way as though to say "Hunh, what do I have to do with this? Why am I having to pay for your inability to settle your crap?"

Though I think I understand she was likely referring to the sense of loss they will no doubt feel, it was in my view, totally the wrong choice of words. 

She then went on to tell me that my daughter (8) had told her that "If you and dad get divorced, then we will end up having another step mum, and another and another". Hearing this killed me inside for several reasons but mostly because I felt horrible for putting my kids through this again. I had tried to prepare them for this announcement over the last few days as a way to lighten the shock. She was pissed that I had had private discussions with the two older ones effectively telling them what was going to happen. I absolutely did not point any fingers nor did I apportion blame during these private discussions - I only wanted to not be surprised by this announcement.

Anyways, it is done now. The hard work begins. 

After the 10-15 minute family discussion, my daughter walked out to cry even more in her room. My son stayed in the sitting room. STBX went to console daughter and I got 9yr old son to come sit on my lap and talk with me or get a 'daddy-hug' (extra hard squeeze). He told me he wasn't angry or mad but he was just sad because they won't ever see her again. I just kept quiet then just tried to draw any venom out of him - there was none. I held him close and told him I am sorry for doing this to him again. I did not envision things turning out this way. I promised him that things will be ok. 

Soon afterwards, my daughter came downstairs shortly her older brother left. I pretty much did the same thing with her though she was more communicative. She expressed concerns about being the only girl in the house (she is developing very fast - physically) and that she will have to boy's stuff. I asked her what kind of girly things she would like us to do and YOU WON'T BELIEVE WHAT SHE SAID - *SHOPPING!!!*

In my head, I screamed and smiled at the same time. I assured her that things will be ok and I'll do everything possible to make sure we do girly things together and that she continues to send time with her girlfriends from school. She looked visibly more settled now. I gave her the daddy squeeze and she soon set out to have me fix her watch which I did (I am forever fixing things but alas, not always with success as you can tell)

As for my 4 yr old boy, he cried too. I am taking a different approach with him. He is presently sharing my Ben and Jerry's Chunky Monkey with me (this is something I DO NOT share gladly). The other two are out with STBX. So the two of us are at home 'having a daddy-son' party.

I know a long roller coaster of a road lies ahead for me personally and my children. I believe the same applies to my wife also but I know this is the best for her and me.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

I am so sorry your wife felt the need to emphasize how much your children will be affected. Her choice of words is shocking. 

Your children may be pleasantly surprised by the new-found peace in the home when she finally packs up her drama kit and hits the road. The sooner the better for all concerned.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

The kids are really getting too much exposure to this process. She's using them as emotional weapons. When it's just you and STBXW then she can do that but she's got them playing their parts in the drama and that's terrible for them.


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## iBolt (Aug 28, 2012)

Blondilocks said:


> I am so sorry your wife felt the need to emphasize how much your children will be affected. Her choice of words is shocking.
> 
> Your children may be pleasantly surprised by the new-found peace in the home when she finally packs up her drama kit and hits the road. The sooner the better for all concerned.


The weird part is she does believe it was right to act this way in front of the kids. I have gotten so uncaring now about the way I feel she belittles me in front of my kids calling me stuff like immature, a child, 4 year old and getting all confrontational that it is so sad. I will take some time to process the last few 2 years of my life and I fear that a lot of suppressed anger and resentment will come out. No doubt she will have her own cathartic moment also.

But as a man, it felt like she simply expected be all cuddly and loving after being so disrespected in front the children. I can honestly say I have gone beyond the stage where the pain of remaining in the marriage far exceeds that of getting divorced. Man, I feel so stupid to be going through this crap.


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## iBolt (Aug 28, 2012)

Thundarr said:


> The kids are really getting too much exposure to this process. She's using them as emotional weapons. When it's just you and STBXW then she can do that but she's got them playing their parts in the drama and that's terrible for them.


This has been a VERY DISTRESSING side of my marriage. I feel so helpless when these soap opera begins. I tell her that she should remember the kids are around and I don't want to talk. She then tells me "Oh I see, you are more concerned about the kids than you are about YOUR wife" (emphasis added) I then feel caught in between her and the children.

Heaven help me cos now I am just plain scared of women.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

iBolt said:


> The weird part is she does believe it was right to act this way in front of the kids. I have gotten so uncaring now about the way I feel she belittles me in front of my kids calling me stuff like immature, a child, 4 year old and getting all confrontational that it is so sad. I will take some time to process the last few 2 years of my life and I fear that a lot of suppressed anger and resentment will come out. No doubt she will have her own cathartic moment also.
> 
> But as a man, it felt like she simply expected be all cuddly and loving after being so disrespected in front the children. I can honestly say I have gone beyond the stage where the pain of remaining in the marriage far exceeds that of getting divorced. Man, I feel so stupid to be going through this crap.


Her actions are driven by fear, insecurity, and entitlement. Maybe she was sheltered by her parents. The end justifies the means to her and dragging the kids into drama is the means to keep her from being alone. She's too busy thinking of herself to realize that's not love at all.


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## seagoat (Feb 4, 2012)

Here...let me give you a "daddy hug" on having the courage to tackle the issue head-on, and taking charge of the situation.

You're on the right track, even if it's a painful path for a while. Your kids, as they get older, and relationship-experienced will be able to understand the situation better, and respect you for having integrity and backbone. You just taught them a valuable thing. 

Your wife is hurting right now. She feels rejected, defeated, and not in control, in addition to what has been driving her already to behave how she does. I would not expect any stoic acts from her right now, just try to do some damage control.

So, should I ever see a dad in a mall with his daughter, I know it will be you!


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## iBolt (Aug 28, 2012)

seagoat said:


> Here...let me give you a "daddy hug" on having the courage to tackle the issue head-on, and taking charge of the situation.
> 
> You're on the right track, even if it's a painful path for a while. Your kids, as they get older, and relationship-experienced will be able to understand the situation better, and respect you for having integrity and backbone. You just taught them a valuable thing.
> 
> ...


:rofl:

Hey I tell you, when she said shopping, it took me about a second to connect the dots. I thought to myself, who is responsible for this kind of programming? I am stuffed - dang it.

PS: I did tell her that we would be doing lots of window shopping then. She then asked me "Dad?! What's window shopping"


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

You WILL always be more concerned about your children than your wife, at least until they are functioning adults. It's a shame your wife didn't understand this when she took on the job of step-mom.

Frankly, she has a lot to learn about being a parent. Hope she grows up before she has any of her own.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

iBolt said:


> Heaven help me cos now I am just plain scared of women.


 but you've learned a lot from this. Now you can spot warning signs early on.


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## iBolt (Aug 28, 2012)

Blondilocks said:


> *You WILL always be more concerned about your children than your wife, at least until they are functioning adults*. It's a shame your wife didn't understand this when she took on the job of step-mom.
> 
> Frankly, she has a lot to learn about being a parent. Hope she grows up before she has any of her own.


..but does this only apply to step parents or parents generally? ie am I more worried about them because she is not their biological mum or because I am a dad? I for one do worry about my kids, not often, but I do. I have NEVER in my life thought I would be called on by someone to account for this especially in comparison to how much I think about them. I never figured this would be a zero sum game where it's either one or the other. I think all parents feel this way. Am I wrong?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

It is a parent's job to nurture and protect their children. It comes with the territory. For a spouse to see children as competition is not healthy. The love for a child is not the same as the love for a spouse and most adults realize this.

The next time you find yourself wanting to get down on bended knee, first ask her how she views her role in your life and how she views her role in the lives of your children. If she answers anything other than as a partner and a partner in raising your children then move on.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Your STBXW is very immature. She has no idea that it's highly inappropriate to say the things she does around your children. God only knows what she says to them when you aren't around -- especially now. Maybe you could limit their time with her. 

I'm not going to sugar-coat it -- she's likely done some damage where they are concerned. Hopefully, you can fix that so it isn't permanent.


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## iBolt (Aug 28, 2012)

*UPDATE*

It continues to be a somber moment in the house. Kids are getting on with their precious young lives and I continue to make myself emotionally available for them as does stbx.

While at church today, a leading minister had heard about what was going to happen. We got talking and he interestingly asked me if their was anything in my conduct with my wife that I need to repent of. He wasn't asking to discourage me from going ahead with the divorce though I sensed a little pressure (quite rightly so too) but rather I got the sense that he did not want feelings of anger, resentment or even hatred to be our exit door. I think Dr. Phil said something similar about divorcing couples and how unhealthy it is to not deal with hurt feelings about each other. Such couples end up becoming sworn enemies who go on a revenge mission. I for one will not do that. I do not need the validation of friends to make me feel I was justified in filing for a divorce. I also feel it's imperative to defend her good name around our friends and family. I seriously failed in this regard with my first marriage breakdown. 

If I had a good channel of communication with ex wife, I would apologise for the bad things I said about her to others. I will not repeat that mistake. I feel hurt and feel sad. I feel as a failure would do and feel I have let many people down bringing about tears in the process. However, I will take a healthy approach to how I go about things in relation to sbtx in the future.

So, feeling as I do now, I am left trying to figure out an answer to this question:

*Why is it that two good people (which I genuinely believe we are) can be so unable to work out their marriage as two good people should? I would appreciate any useful insights *

_ PS: I feel very much at peace with my decision to file for a divorce.I am already seeing/getting the "you're the one divorcing me=bad guy thing" but I am manning up to that. I fully expect this to get worse especially from her support network that I know. _


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## evenstar (Jul 26, 2013)

Good people can be really insecure. If an insecure person can't examine his or her own reactions in relationships, you can't work out differences.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

I have seen no indication that your wife is willing to work on your marriage. You seem to be willing, yes, but what has she been doing besides acting like a spoiled child. I think she had an idea of being a wife and stepmom that didn't mesh with reality. It's difficult to do that -- no question -- and she apparently spent her life, until marrying you, focusing on herself (no prior husband, no children).


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## iBolt (Aug 28, 2012)

Openminded said:


> I have seen no indication that your wife is willing to work on your marriage. You seem to be willing, yes, but what has she been doing besides acting like a spoiled child. I think she had an idea of being a wife and stepmom that didn't mesh with reality. It's difficult to do that -- no question -- and she apparently spent her life, until marrying you, focusing on herself (no prior husband, no children).


I really do appreciate your generosity.

In fairness to her, she has done a very good job with the kids. On balance and for someone who has never been a parent before, she has been great. I tell her this and make sure she knows exactly how I feel about the efforts she makes.

The tragedy for me is just simply that she has married a man who cannot stand arguments. I take A LOT of pride in being a responsible man that looks after his family the best he can. If I have to get a second job (which I have done) to make us (and her particularly) feel secure - I do it. I make a special effort to really do a good man. In fact I know I have tried doing many of the things she asked me to do and STILL she would focus on the next main thing that is her need. It just so soul destroying.

It's like I sometimes wish I was with a woman who appreciated more than anything else a man who worked hard, values education, actually enjoys cooking, doing dishes and playing with kids. Oh and is neither a spend thrift or tight wad. Not a perfect man BUT a decent one.

Our marriage seems to me to be all about HER needs not being met whereas I get criticised and ridiculed in front of my kids. So, the cycle has done me in. I am going to jump off this bus as painful, dark and lonely as it is.


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## seagoat (Feb 4, 2012)

iBolt said:


> I really do appreciate your generosity.
> 
> In fairness to her, she has done a very good job with the kids. On balance and for someone who has never been a parent before, she has been great. I tell her this and make sure she knows exactly how I feel about the efforts she makes.
> 
> ...


Maybe it has been addressed before, but does she KNOW about your needs? Not imply, but heard them coming out of your mouth in no uncertain terms?


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## iBolt (Aug 28, 2012)

seagoat said:


> Maybe it has been addressed before, but does she KNOW about your needs? Not imply, but heard them coming out of your mouth in no uncertain terms?


Yes. She knows. I have told her. MC also did the same but all that seems to be her focus are her needs that I not meeting. I just wonder what happens with the others that I am meeting. .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

iBolt said:


> Yes. She knows. I have told her. MC also did the same but all that seems to be her focus are her needs that I not meeting. I just wonder what happens with the others that I am meeting. .
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think you and some others have been dancing around a critical issue. It seems your stbx considers you to be "out of her league".Going back a few pages she said something about being the best thing that ever happened to you. that should have been a huge red flag.

IMO being in a relationship with someone like that is hopeless. All those compromises that make marriage work (like "I'll cook dinner if you do the dishes") are based on relatively equal values being placed on each spouse's time and effort. But in your case, your wife was constantly harping on what you failed to do (or did wrong). You go nuts because your contribution is not valued. But, her perspective likely is that she can ask and get whatever she wants, because you are lucky to have her under any circumstances.

You need to stay away from women like this in the future. My ex was like this, and there is no reasoning with someone like that. the lesson I learned: no matter how attractive, sexual, or wealthy any future partner may be - the moment she says she is better than me, we are through.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## life101 (Nov 18, 2012)

iBolt, I am so glad you are getting out of this marriage. Your STBXW sounds just like my STBXW. It is sad that your children will grow up in a divided household, but I strongly believe that you can support them better by not being together with your STBXW.

She is crazy. What a trainwreck.


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## iBolt (Aug 28, 2012)

life101 said:


> iBolt, I am so glad you are getting out of this marriage. Your STBXW sounds just like my STBXW. It is sad that your children will grow up in a divided household, but I strongly believe that you can support them better by not being together with your STBXW.
> 
> She is crazy. What a trainwreck.


I doubt she is crazy. In fact, I know she isn't. She is a good woman that cannot live happily together with a man like me. Same applies in reverse.

I love the girl we are just fundamentally from very different planets (no ref: to the book btw). I am a competitive person by nature and find that I have gotten more so as I get older. I hate failing or conceding defeat BUT on this one, I am totally beaten - hands down. I cannot give what she needs as much and in the way she seeks it. My childlike attempts just gets rubbished when it goes wrong or when it stops (as they do at times) simply because some things do not come so naturally to me.

So next time, I will marry a woman (yes, I strongly believe in the institution of marriage) who goes nutts about a man that can do and actually enjoys doing domestic chores, loves to cook different things, going to the movies, thinks it to be the best thing in the world when he sacrifices for the sake of the whole family, loves and adores children while enjoying being a dad..oh and is a good money manager, highly educated and is in good physical condition 

As per the children, thank you for your kind sentiment. I know they'll be great. They have a dad that makes himself very available to them. We talk a lot and we play together well too. I believe I have seriously been blessed with children that have resilience unlike any other child I know. God must have know the huge drama my life would be so he sent me teflon kids.


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## iBolt (Aug 28, 2012)

UPDATE

We had an interesting night yesterday. 

We both discovered that we're both still very attracted to each other physically. We both also expressed the fact that we loved each other but the lingering scars remain. She expressed doubts that I could love her the way she needed. I told her I did the best I could but I am struggling with some emotional issues owing to some of the things I've been through in our marriage. Consequently, she will either have to wait and give me space to get over these issues or I do not want to waste her time as she once suggested that I was doing.

She sort of figured that I was making excuses for not wanting to meet her needs or that I was refusing to move-on from the past. This is not true but this is an argument I don't want to keep having. I explained that it is not viable for me to live in a marriage where my wife feels it her position to judge whether I am working on our marriage or not and even worse if I am putting as much effort as she is. Knowing human nature, I will nearly always fall short on this scale. 

It was an initially emotive discussion but she then went upstairs crying. Unusually, I went up to console her. We both agreed that we both felt at peace with my divorce application. She now has another 4 days or so to respond to the court documents she received last week.

My main objective is not to walk away in anger. If I can hell it, I don't want her to walk out the door in anger too. I am increasingly convinced that the bridge between us is just too wide especially when she suggested if we have a separation of sort on condition that I WORK ON ME. She gave the hint that she was ok because she is ok but I needed space.

This really made me think that her assessment of me and my ability to function as the type of husband she requires will always be to my disadvantage. I find this very saddening. This kind of judgement is just too much - to think you are constantly being weighed on a scale of love...

Sigh
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bewilderness (Jun 11, 2013)

She is not a feminist. This is not an issue of feminist against the man. She's a woman who does not fulfill your idea of a mate -- and vice versa. 

Walk away from this mismatched relationship. Please take your daughter shopping. Stop acting so put upon by the women in your life. So long as you see women as the problem, you will continue to have problems with women.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

> This really made me think that her assessment of me and my ability to function as the type of husband she requires will always be to my disadvantage. I find this very saddening. This kind of judgement is just too much - to think you are constantly being weighed on a scale of love...


Read over the forums, OP - whether people want to call the concept "a love bank" a "scale of love" or anything else - partners do assess how they feel their partner is filling their needs. You seem to see this as an undue judgement, and expect that there is a perfect woman out there who won't make that assessment. 

Which - given that your strengths seem to be "Acts of Service" and "Financial Security" (coming from the 5LL and HNHN perspective) you may indeed find a woman who places greater importance on those needs rather than the "Words of Affection" that your wife seems to seek. And you may find a woman who is far less vocal about her perceived needs being met. You may find a woman whose needs you see as more "reasonable."

But - if in another relationship you fall right back into the "it doesn't come naturally to me" when your next wife inevitably mentions having some needs in an area that is uncomfortable for you - we'll be right back to square one. 

But of course - you've already labeled such things as drivel:



> As per 5 love languages. I have read the book. I hate it. It is overly simplistic and has an inverted logic in my view. It says nothing about people who like to have their own space once in a while.


In short - you want the things you do to "count" regardless if they are what "speaks love" to a SO. You admit that you are competitive by nature - to the point where you need to walk ahead of your wife, rather than slow down and hold her hand and walk together because she's too slow and fell behind. 

So - if you are looking for another woman to take care of three step-children (working to help support them) while you paint any needs she has as unreasonable, a "hole to deep to fill", and "any effort I make should count" because "it doesn't come naturally to me." 

I'd honestly say good luck. I think you should work on yourself and try and understand that you have a part in this situation. And not just a "were good people who aren't working out" stance. I mean actively owning your part in this marriage breaking down. Perhaps through IC. If that helps save your marriage, great - but if it doesn't, until you understand that and own it, I'd recommend staying off the dating scene. You expectations of a spouse who only has the needs you feel they should, and otherwise stays silent about complaints isn't reasonable.


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## iBolt (Aug 28, 2012)

Starstarfish said:


> Read over the forums, OP - whether people want to call the concept "a love bank" a "scale of love" or anything else - partners do assess how they feel their partner is filling their needs. You seem to see this as an undue judgement, and expect that there is a perfect woman out there who won't make that assessment.
> 
> Which - given that your strengths seem to be "Acts of Service" and "Financial Security" (coming from the 5LL and HNHN perspective) you may indeed find a woman who places greater importance on those needs rather than the "Words of Affection" that your wife seems to seek. And you may find a woman who is far less vocal about her perceived needs being met. You may find a woman whose needs you see as more "reasonable."
> 
> ...


I am wiser. Thank you for your input.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Wow, that was the most interesting interpretation of a thread I've seen in awhile.


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## iBolt (Aug 28, 2012)

bewilderness said:


> She is not a feminist. This is not an issue of feminist against the man. She's a woman who does not fulfill your idea of a mate -- and vice versa.
> 
> Walk away from this mismatched relationship. Please take your daughter shopping. Stop acting so put upon by the women in your life. So long as you see women as the problem, you will continue to have problems with women.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks for your post. Just a quick question cos now you got me totally lost - Please remind me of where or how I may have given the impression that I "see women as the problem?"


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## iBolt (Aug 28, 2012)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Wow, that was the most interesting interpretation of a thread I've seen in awhile.


Unbelievable. I am now seriously going over my posts again to figure out where I made the statements being attributed to me. Am I going crazy? :scratchhead:


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

You have to remember, you did paint feminism broadly. So, for some people they will read everything you type as misogynistic.


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## iBolt (Aug 28, 2012)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> You have to remember, you did paint feminism broadly. So, for some people they will read everything you type as misogynistic.


Holy crap. Really?!


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

iBolt said:


> Holy crap. Really?!


There are a few on this board who will interpret anything negative about a woman as misogyny. Ignore the noise.


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## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

> What the h*&l?! How did you come to conflate a competitive tendency with me walking ahead of her on one occasion? Are you sure that you have read my posts accurately?





> I am a competitive person by nature and find that I have gotten more so as I get older. I hate failing or conceding defeat


I didn't "conflate" a competitive tendency, you said yourself that you have one. If that was an inaccurate deduction from your comment, I apologize. 



> She walks in front of me sometimes because I walked slowly and sometimes we synchronise our steps just right. The more serious answer is that on this occasion, I was just walking and she fell behind.


My husband is just shy of six feet and weighs 145 lbs, he could outpace me in a heartbeat, and yet - we "synchronize our steps just right" hold hands and walk together. It isn't magic - its effort and consideration. So when you mentioned having a competitive streak and labeled it as "falling behind" it brought up the mental picture of an impatient parent waiting for a kid who is "taking too long." That you saw walking to slow as "failing" somehow. That's where I got that from, just as an explanation. 

As to my general perception, I put it together from your statements:



> I clearly don't see it this way. There is honestly not a week that goes by where there isn't a complaint about something I do or don't do and how I end up making her feel.


You don't see things that way, therefore, obviously her opinion is wrong. Her complaints aren't valid, it's only "nagging."



> I honestly do not get what flowers do for her but I buy them anyways.


You "do not get what flowers do for her" - it's not a need you have, or one you understand, therefore again, it isn't valid. 



> However, I am not an emotional waterfall capable of endless outpourings of affection. I try sometimes and it feels good cos she's happy but it's just not second nature to me. Surely this does not make me a negligent or bad husband.


She wants emotional connection, that's not second nature to me. Even if I realize that's what makes her happy, if I don't do that, that's okay too. 

I'm not saying your wife doesn't have problems of her own. If you are being legit in your descriptions of the things she says, the black and white (only a Sith deals in absolutes, right?) "You never" statements may hint at some possible issues. Or simply she's given to hyperbole and doesn't know how to properly express what she's feeling in a non-accusatory way. 

But - even without that present, statements like "I don't know what it does for you" and "I don't see it that way" is also a problematic way of thinking. Which was ultimately my point - even if a next partner is more "on level" - if you met any of her complaints with the same mindset, you are likely to ultimately, get a similiar result. 

Also - 5LL isn't the be all and end all of relationship advice, I get that. It has flaws. So does His Needs Her Needs and any other book that someone will suggest. It's a book - a starting point of thought and discussion. Not even a single book by Jung or Freud can totally encompass all that is humanity. 

But at same time - I and likely others can speak to the basic idea that not everyone "gets" love in the same way. I think that's a basic idea from 5LL that is very much true. You want your wife to feel love from your domestic efforts rather than what she's told you she wants - to be touched and to get gifts that are given our of genuine desire. 

You can't replace what someone tells you they want with what you think they should want. And their wants shouldn't be subject to an interpretation of validity - ie, whether or not you "get what it does for them." Sometimes people have wants that can't be logically defined or explained. People are mysterious like that. For sex these are called "kinks" in other areas they are "eccentricities" - nothing mentioned here seems way offbase - the possible exception being the who parks where argument. 



> There's nothing cute about him cleaning the house from top to bottom, preparing a fancy meal and taking on a second job because of your desires. UNLESS he strokes you and salivates over you after buying you gifts, it's all BS


There's men on other threads that I'm sure can comment that for many men household chores = / = more sex appeal. That isn't not Alpha and whatever, I'm actually surprised none of that came up yet, really. 

Also - note, I never accused you OP of "misogyny" because you "said something bad about a woman." I never said that word at all. So - take what I say as "noise" or otherwise.


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## iBolt (Aug 28, 2012)

Superduperuberstarfish

I may not entirely agree with some of your reasonings and conclusions but I do appreciate your insights nevertheless. You're not making noise... Thanks again
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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