# When to say "when"?



## LifeIsAJourney (Jan 24, 2013)

I have been with my husband for 25 years, married for 20. This is my first marriage and his second. We have one child, a son who will be 18 in a few months. My husband and I both work full time as technical professionals and make similar salaries. 

I would describe the first 3/4 of our marriage as acceptable. We didn’t fight much but we weren’t particularly connected, especially after the birth of our son. My husband does his own thing – bicycling, fishing, sports - and family time consisted of eating dinner together most nights, our child's sporting events and taking family vacations. He and I had dates maybe every couple of months and a couples weekend every year. I handled all childcare and household chores, but early in our marriage my job was nowhere near as challenging as it is now. Our sex life was OK, but not what either of us would call great. Whatever complaints we had we did not voice. And that is probably our biggest problem.

My husband has been depressed for as long as I have known him. Throughout our relationship he used alcohol and drugs, but I didn’t consider it a major problem. He has a dominant and controlling personality where I am easy-going and extremely conflict avoidant. In 2007 my husband’s depression worsened and he began to self-medicate by drinking or getting high daily. 

As his depression deepened, my husband became a rageaholic. He screamed and yelled and was emotionally abusive to me and our son. I begged him to get medical help so he saw a psychologist for a couple of months and tried antidepressants for a week. When the medication didn’t give him immediate relief, he decided it was useless and quit taking it. He stopped seeing his psychologist as he determined therapy was not doing him any good (he never told the doctor the truth about his drug or alcohol use).

For over 5 years my son and I walked on eggshells. It got so bad that I would daydream about my husband’s death. In more practical waking moments, I made my plans to walk just as soon as our son left for college. My son once commented that his favorite week of the year was when his dad went out of town skiing. The love I once felt for my husband was dead and, in truth, I didn’t even like him any more.

And then a really crazy thing happened about a year ago. I was in a corporate training class that was taught by a man to whom I found myself incredibly attracted. I was very surprised as nothing like this had never happened to me before. I had much in common with this man and after the class ended we remained in contact via e-mail (he lives in another state). It all started innocently enough. We discussed business topics, books, movies... you know the drill. When he confessed his attraction to me, the relationship turned into an emotional affair. 

I shocked myself with my behavior. Those infatuation chemicals were out of control and before long I was ready to take this “friendship” to the next level. Luckily the other man was a decent human being and not a complete piece of sh!t. He told me “If that’s what you want to do, I’m in. But don’t pretend this isn’t a huge mistake.” 

Well, that was just the bucket of ice water I needed to douse those flames of passion. I decided I would give my husband an ultimatum regarding his drug use. I had no idea what would happen but, to my surprise, my husband picked his family over pot. But he still refused to get medical help for his depression and he refused marital counseling. The screaming and yelling had ended but our relationship was still a mess. 

I began individual counseling. I have never been able to freely express my feelings with my husband. I think much of this goes back to our early relationship. Whenever I was upset or angry my husband would say something along the lines of “if you don’t like it you can just leave.” On several occasions he threatened divorce. When our son was very young I overspent on a credit card (in my name) without telling my husband. The card had a balance of around $2500 and it had showed up on our credit report. He threatened to leave me and take our child with him. It was a Catch 22: I couldn’t tell him because I was afraid of his anger and by not telling him it made things even worse. 

At the behest of my counselor I told my husband about my attraction to this other man. I was terrified, but he needed to know. My counselor also had me write a letter to my husband spelling out how everything that had occurred in our marriage had led us to this point. I spelled out my feelings with no holds barred. I did not plan to give this to him until I had reviewed it with my counselor and I had it saved on my computer. My husband had been suspicious and thought that I may be having an affair. When I told him about my emotional affair, he was very upset but he still would not agree to go to counseling with me. And I had not been completely honest about everything. I now know how wrong this is but I had not gone completely “no contact” with my “friend”. While our e-mails were no longer flirtatious or sexual in nature, they continued. About a month after telling my husband about my “friend”, he suspicions were aroused and he hacked into my computer. He found those e-mails and, worse, he found my letter. 

That was Jan. 2, 2013. My husband was devastated. My husband completely fell apart and was clinging and desperate when he found out about my EA. At that point the 180 would have done us both a world of good. He begged me to stay and didn’t want me to move into another bedroom. I didn’t know if I really wanted the marriage to continue at this point, but I knew in my heart I would regret it if I didn’t give it my best effort. I told him I was willing to work on our marriage but he simply had to get treatment for his depression.

Fast forward to today. My husband is seeing a counselor and his depression is seemingly under control. I went “no contact” with my friend and gave my husband access to my cell phone, e-mail accounts and Facebook account. We attended a marriage enhancement weekend to help us get closer and learn tools for effective communication. I was still not feeling “in love” with him, but there were signs of improvement. I had hope.

Things were pretty good until the past month or so. My husband started drinking again – not a lot but he gets inebriated easily. He has been playing around with his dosage on his medication. He is in the process of changing counselors. He knows he should not be drinking while taking medication but when I say something he tells me I am not his “keeper”. I have seen the return of some of the anger and controlling behaviors I disliked so much throughout our marriage. 

While I applaud my husband’s hard work and everything he has done to change, I am starting to lose respect for him again. I care about him, but I don’t know if I can ever feel for him the way I did all those years ago when I married him. 

I am so tired. When do you know when to say "when"?


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

If you have had a year long affair on your husband, and you freely admit you would dream about his DEATH, it's probably time to go.

No wonder the guy is drinking.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

According to the OP, the drinking and angry outbursts started long before the affair and her dreams of his death.

LifeIsAJourney,

Your husband is an alcoholic who will not / can not stick to what he needs to do. 

Were I you, I would not give it much longer. Point out to him that he is falling back into very bad habits. If he has not turned that around in, say 1 month, that's it. Then at the end of every month take inventory.. if he's back at it, end the marriage. If you do not stick up for yourself and your son, who will. You cannot go the rest of your life doing this. You stuck it out far too long already.


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

When you have nothing left to give, that's when you say 'when'.

Are you there yet? If he's going back to old habits, I would say something about that, then let it go. Give him a time frame and then make a decision at the end of that time frame. He doesn't have to know that you're putting an hourglass on him, but if he becomes unbearable there's no sense in keeping up a charade. 

Whatever is going on with him inside, you can't fix.


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

EleGirl said:


> According to the OP, the drinking and angry outbursts started long before the affair and her dreams of his death.


It doesn't matter.

If you see your husband struggling with alcoholism and depression, and your response is a year long affair and then lying about it after it's over, you do not love the guy and betrayed him in the worst way. 

If you can't talk about a credit card balance without conflict avoidance issues kicking in, you are bringing communication issues into the marriage that only you can repair.

And finally, if you wish your husband was dead, it does sort of imply you don't want him around.

I'm not trying to pile on the OP, but she asked if it's time to say "when"... it was probably time to say "when" a long time ago. There is nothing noble about sticking around and making a bad situation ten time worse. Now, unless she's willing to support her husbands battle with depression and work to recover from the affair that she brought into the marriage, it's really time to go, so they can both heal. They both have a lot of work to do.


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## LifeIsAJourney (Jan 24, 2013)

Just to clarify:

My EA lasted 5 months, not a year. 

And yes, I know it is horrible to daydream about your spouse's death. According to my therapist it is not altogether uncommon - I never actually wanted my spouse dead. A widow has much more sympathy than a woman who would leave her depressed, angry, substance-abusing spouse.


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## LifeIsAJourney (Jan 24, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> According to the OP, the drinking and angry outbursts started long before the affair and her dreams of his death.
> 
> LifeIsAJourney,
> 
> ...


I plan to talk to him tonight about my concerns about the return of his habits. I have owned up to everything I have done to damage the marriage. Unfortunately, he has not owned up to the emotional abuse to which he subjected my son and me. 

A timetable would be good.


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

LifeIsAJourney - I bet the OM and the daydreams are your subconscious way of trying to tell yourself there is a better life out there. It's a pretty nuclear way of doing it but still, living with a depressed person can condition your brain in funny ways and maybe that's what you need to get in touch with the part of you that you needed to listen to and make some changes for the better.

It does not excuse the affair at all, but perhaps there is some positive in it - depression alters chemicals in the brain (not too dissimilar from the "fog" you experienced) and it can make you do things that you wouldn't normally do. Maybe you can understand where he is on a daily basis a little more clearly?

I'd say, if you can forgive your husband, if he can forgive you, and you can make recovering from these two marriage killers the focus of your marriage for a while, you are in the right place to consider staying.

If you feel like the affair was justifiable and you are just simply tired of dealing with the depression and can no longer do it, I think it is probably time to go. That would let you both heal and work on your own issues with the safety of space.


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## LifeIsAJourney (Jan 24, 2013)

A Bit Much said:


> When you have nothing left to give, that's when you say 'when'.
> 
> Are you there yet? If he's going back to old habits, I would say something about that, then let it go. Give him a time frame and then make a decision at the end of that time frame. He doesn't have to know that you're putting an hourglass on him, but if he becomes unbearable there's no sense in keeping up a charade.
> 
> Whatever is going on with him inside, you can't fix.


This is pretty much what I had decided to do but it is good to get feedback.


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

LifeIsAJourney said:


> This is pretty much what I had decided to do but it is good to get feedback.


Totally understand that.

I hope things turn around for you, but like I said, you can't fix him. He has to want to help himself and it sounds like he started to, but now is content to backslide.


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## Chris Taylor (Jul 22, 2010)

If you give him a timetable, you also have to let him know the consequence of not meeting it. And if that i divorce, you CAN NOT go back on that. If he screws up and you don't leave, you are basically telling him that his actions don't matter.

I hope it works out for you but I'd start putting a plan in place now in case things don't.


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## LifeIsAJourney (Jan 24, 2013)

Acorn said:


> LifeIsAJourney - I bet the OM and the daydreams are your subconscious way of trying to tell yourself there is a better life out there. It's a pretty nuclear way of doing it but still, living with a depressed person can condition your brain in funny ways and maybe that's what you need to get in touch with the part of you that you needed to listen to and make some changes for the better.
> 
> It does not excuse the affair at all, but perhaps there is some positive in it - depression alters chemicals in the brain (not too dissimilar from the "fog" you experienced) and it can make you do things that you wouldn't normally do. Maybe you can understand where he is on a daily basis a little more clearly?


Maybe.

When I was in the "fog", I was pretty intent on divorce. I had talked to an attorney and looked at apartments. I was planning my life as a single woman.

Despite my husband's depression and his abusive behavior, it did not excuse my choice to have an EA. I know that. I own it and I am so sorry for what I put him through. 

The "fog" has now lifted. I do not fantasize about the OM. I know that whatever road I choose is going to be difficult. Four months ago I decided to stay in my marriage because I owed it to my husband and my family to try. 




Acorn said:


> I'd say, if you can forgive your husband, if he can forgive you, and you can make recovering from these two marriage killers the focus of your marriage for a while, you are in the right place to consider staying.
> 
> If you feel like the affair was justifiable and you are just simply tired of dealing with the depression and can no longer do it, I think it is probably time to go. That would let you both heal and work on your own issues with the safety of space.


I do NOT feel that the affair was justifiable. 

I AM tired of dealing with the depression.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Tell him he's absolutely right. You aren't his keeper. You're his wife. You didn't sign on to be hitched to a stoned half-husband or quarter husband. If he wishes to lose more of his life disengaged and sedated, that's his choice. If he wishes to go to his grave early and medicated, that's his choice. You choose to not live that way. You have lost enough of your life to his booze, pot, and pills. Give him a reasonable time period. Offer any and all reasonable support if he wants to quit. If, in X months, you're still competing with drugs and alcohol for his affection, you're out. No questions, no argument, no explanation, no discussion, no 15th chance. The world is full of lonely pill heads, crack heads, and drunks. They go into nursing homes, and the morgue every day. The world will not even blink at one more. Life is happening outside his bottle and if he wants to spend it with you, he'll crawl out.


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## IsGirl3 (Nov 13, 2012)

The time to say "when" is now. It really should have been done many many years ago. How sad that your son's best week of the year is when his dad isn't around. That is very telling of the state of your marriage and of his emotional stability. You think you were doing the right thing waiting for your son to go off to college, so this isn't about waiting another month, or year to see if he shapes up. 

You gave him 18 years to shape up. Your son is going off to college. Now it's time for you to find happiness with a loving partner who loves you and treats you well and who you enjoy being with.

It sounds to me like you have given this your all. You seem to be the only one trying and that is the problem. Your husband's attempts to change are not working and trying isn't good enough. This is who he is and it's ugly.

It's way past time to move on.


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## LifeIsAJourney (Jan 24, 2013)

Chris Taylor said:


> If you give him a timetable, you also have to let him know the consequence of not meeting it. And if that i divorce, you CAN NOT go back on that. If he screws up and you don't leave, you are basically telling him that his actions don't matter.
> 
> I hope it works out for you but I'd start putting a plan in place now in case things don't.



I know this and it is scary. I have already talked to a lawyer because my husband had retained a lawyer when he found out about my EA and told me that he would fight me over the house and the custody of our son. 

I have had a plan in place since that time.


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

LifeIsAJourney said:


> I do NOT feel that the affair was justifiable.
> 
> I AM tired of dealing with the depression.


I do feel like it will be an uphill battle for you.

An affair takes a LONG time of continual work on the betraying spouses' part to get the marriage to where it was pre-affair. This does not even begin to address all his issues that were present prior to the affair. It does not really sound to me like either one of you have it in you to repair this thing, and that would be understandable under the circumstances.

Whatever you do, I hope things work out for the best.


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

"When" you are ready to leave, you will.

I don't think you are ready yet or you would have left already.

"Something" is keeping you with your husband. It is not your child who is almost an adult. It is not for financial reasons because you said you earn a decent living.

Write down all of your fears about divorce & study the list. 

I was married for 22 years & wanted out after 10. But I wasn't "ready" to leave. I thought I was making excuses to stay but the reality is that I wasn't ready to leave. Then one day after exhausting all efforts to keep the marriage alive & when my children were grown, I found the courage to go.

However I do want to caution you.

It has been 5 years since I left & sadly, I have regrets.

Looking back, I would have opted for a trial separation.

Maybe that is something you can try prior to the finality of a divorce.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

LifeIsAJourney said:


> I know this and it is scary. I have already talked to a lawyer because my husband had retained a lawyer when he found out about my EA and told me that he would fight me over the house and the custody of our son.
> 
> I have had a plan in place since that time.


Your son is going on 18, there IS no custody battle.  I am in agreement with issuing a time frame, I would say 90 days. I am glad to see you have a plan, now know that you MUST stick to it if that is what it comes to, if you go back on it, he will never, ever take you seriously.


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## LifeIsAJourney (Jan 24, 2013)

Thanks to everyone who responded to this post. 

*unbelievable *- My therapist talked to me today about reporting my feelings and making my husband understand the consequences of his actions. She made it clear that I must be willing to go if he can't follow through. 

*isgirl3 *- My husband really does seem to be trying. I mean, he gave up pot. But he does so many things that are self defeating: he plays around with his dosage of depression medication, he changes therapists when he doesn't like what they say, and he's drinking. I have beaten myself up repeatedly wondering if I have damaged my son's psyche by staying in this relationship for so long. Hindsight is 20-20. All I have is now and things will change, one way or another.

*Acorn *- I realize that I have to do the heavy lifting to gain my husband's trust again but all of the other issues are making my efforts seem pointless. 

*Emerald *- I really appreciate your perspective and I believe you are correct in saying that I am not quite ready to go yet. I will sit down with my journal and really explore my fears tonight. The idea of a trial separation is sound if my husband would agree to it. Just last night he told me that if I wanted to end things I should just go ahead and do it. 

*3xnocharm *- Yes, I know there is no custody issue. I think my husband thought it would scare me. Evoking my worst fears has always been his mode of manipulation. I reminded him our son is 17 and could decide on his own where and with whom he wished to live. 

I saw my therapist today and we talked about my husband's drinking and how it has really wreaked havoc with our family dynamic. And just this morning my son said to me "What has happened to Dad?" My husband's drinking affects his temperament and that in turn wakes the four horsemen: criticism (him), contempt (him), defensiveness (both) and stonewalling (me).

On a positive note, my husband agreed to give up scotch (but not beer or wine) and said he would go to marital counseling if I found the counselor.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

This doesn't look too promising. Sorry.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

LifeIsAJourney said:


> On a positive note, my husband agreed to give up scotch (but not beer or wine) and said he would go to marital counseling if I found the counselor.


I hate to be the bearer of bad tidings, but I have an extremely strong feeling you are dealing with an alcoholic. The denial mechanism goes something like this: "I can control my drinking. I don't drink hard liquor anymore. I only drink wine. AND I only drink wine every other day of the week." 

My husband gave up his Johnny Walker Red too. Guess what? He switched to that god-awful boxed wine. But he drinks a box every 24 hours. That comes to about four bottles. And, yes, he gets just as stinkin' drunk. In fact, no matter what type of booze they decide to use, it serves the same purpose for the same desired effect: get a good buzz going or just zone out into laa-laa land and avoid live altogether. 

As far as when to say "when"? When the pain of staying exceeds the pain of leaving.


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## JenFree2013 (May 7, 2013)

I understand how you feel, I have a friend who is in the same situation. It's only normal to feel tired and almost giving up...but the thing is ... A part of you are obviously hanging in there... Hoping that someday the table will turn around and your married life will be happy again.
You are very strong and have a lot of patience to keep your string long enough... I salute you on this  ... From what I see, you exercise so much understanding, patience, hopes and love to him... You became stronger because of this trial.... And you want to see the fruit of your labor as he changes for the better... 
But you can't see the light at the end of the tunnel if you stop walking the dark path and learn from it's thorns.
I pray that the Heaven will continue to give you strength and love... For yourself and him... God Bless


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