# Wife's Emotional Affair - now what?



## X-unknown (Oct 14, 2011)

A quick history. Our marriage (20+ years) has been a bit neglected. Lots of stress and crisis (Finance, Kids etc) Our sex life went to rare and lots of feelings of mutual rejection (That we learned in Couples Therapy)

One of the revelations in couples therapy is her long term Emotional affair. 

When my gut started telling me that things were not right I checked the cell bill (Way too late btw) and the "just a friend" started looking like a lot more with the volume of calls. Anyway, she was not forthcoming until the therapist called her out and even then it wasn't a big deal until I confronted her with the cell info. Now, its "I didn't have any idea it was that often" I feel a bit guilty for snooping but I also feel like a sap for not having clued into this long ago. I also regret telling her about how I know this because I suppose she can phone from work or pick up one of those pay as you go phones. *Which worries me.

Anyway our rarely sexual relationship went to mega active. That ought to feel great but I get the nagging feeling it might be a mask so that we don't deal anymore with the "just a friend" topic. Speaking of which I'm reading a book by that title and the examples all look like matches for whats going on with us.

I guess the snooping thing and how others are dealing with EAs would be of great interest.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

The concept of complete transparency covers the snooping. You have a right to validate your trust. So oput that away and don;t bring that up again.

Moving on. She must go complete NC immediately with her affair partner. It must verifiable. You are under no obligation to divulge how you found out anything. If she knows how you know then she can counter that. 

Hysterical bonding can happen for a number of reasons and not all good. Sometimes it means her affair has gone to a PA and she is just turned on and you are there. Or not. I will leave that for other to comment on.

This is the first time I have heard on this forum of a MC calling out someone for thier EA. Excellent.


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## HerToo (Oct 3, 2011)

I had an EA, and left my phone where my wife decided to look at it one day. I was caught from what she saw. There was no way to lie with it right there for all to see. Now I'm an open book.

I have to admit that since then, sex with her has increased. I feel bad because it's not romantic sex. It's just sex. Doesn't feel right.


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## X-unknown (Oct 14, 2011)

Verifyable? Exactly how? Right now I'm seeing long calls to "unknown" show up on her bill... SIGH


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

It's still fully active. The increased sex is her compensating by trying to lull you by giving you lots of sex. Not uncommon fin affairs, unfortunately.

You've called her on the EA. has she committed to ending it? Does she admit to it?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Geoffrey Marsh (Aug 11, 2011)

I would watch her actions closely...the sex thing could swing either way so this is not a good indicator of good/bad.

Judge solely on what you can verify 100%!

These "unknown" calls need to be vetted out right away.

There can be no wiggle room when it comes to no-contact...she either does it or fails to do it...no grey area.

She might be trying to rug sweep with this increase is sexual activity....be careful that you do not allow this to happen.

If the OM has a wife you need to expose the affair to her.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Where is she calling from? Buy voice activated recorders (cheap) from walmart Best Buy. Use velcro and hide one under her car seat. Places in the home where she might talk like the bathroom. 

Keylogger on computer may also be helpful.

Be prepared for hearing some ugly stuff however.



Sorry your here, good luck.


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## Lyn (Mar 10, 2010)

Don't let her get away with anything. If she wants to stay married, she needs to respect you and herself and come clean. She may be in denial, but the only one she is kidding is herself.

Best,

Lyn


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## Arnold (Oct 25, 2011)

What makes you think this was strictly non-physical?


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## X-unknown (Oct 14, 2011)

Shaggy said:


> It's still fully active. The increased sex is her compensating by trying to lull you by giving you lots of sex. Not uncommon fin affairs, unfortunately.
> 
> You've called her on the EA. has she committed to ending it? Does she admit to it?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I considered the lots of sex = some kind of "lets get your mind off this topic" or else it doesn't make a lot of sense. I think not having a good sexlife was a significant part of this EA biz. Feeling rejected and a little bit of anger over some of the stuff. *Not tonight I have a headache and a zillion other reasons. I got to the point where I went from hurt to angry to whatever...

Yes, she admitted it. We were doing couples therapy and the therapist asked her and she said "maybe" and then said it was an EA but has continued denying got sexual. I guess thats common and that the truth take a long time to come out. Someone called it the "Trickle Truth" 

Has she committed to ending it? Yes, but I've asked her more then once (Before this admission) to stop this and she avoided responding (and kept it up) A while after the therapy session she told me she would stop contact and I thought she would but.... Anyway, I really knew this was crossing lines for a long time. Was she having a sexual affair? I am totally split on this. There are times I think she is being truthful and there are times I've assumed it was sexual. Its really driving me crazy. *Like see a doctor level crazy. One of the problems is that I really have no one but her (And the therapist) to talk to.


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## X-unknown (Oct 14, 2011)

Arnold said:


> What makes you think this was strictly non-physical?


I guess I'm answering this twice but I have her saying its not. I guess even if its not a sexual thing the EA is bad enough. I do 180s a lot on if I believe her. I've had a number of clues that there is something she is not being truthful about but thats a gut feeling not any facts. 

Truth be told I'm kind of freaked out about finding out. Right now I've gotten to the point that I'm handling the EA (Assuming its over) but I think adding in sex makes this into a much more difficult issue. I think we could still move forward but I'm a little worried that I it might make me explode.


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## X-unknown (Oct 14, 2011)

chapparal said:


> Where is she calling from? Buy voice activated recorders (cheap) from walmart Best Buy. Use velcro and hide one under her car seat. Places in the home where she might talk like the bathroom.
> 
> Keylogger on computer may also be helpful.
> 
> ...


Thanks I'm sorry I have to be here but I'm happy to have a place to "talk it out" so to speak. I have no idea where she does the phoning from all I know is that when I first made some noises about this "friend" biz bothering me she made the phone calls when I wasn't home. Kind of awful stuff.... Hearing ugly stuff doesn't sound good at all. Ugh I hate this...

We are both working crappy jobs so buying equipment like that is probably out.


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## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

X-unknown said:


> Thanks I'm sorry I have to be here but I'm happy to have a place to "talk it out" so to speak. I have no idea where she does the phoning from all I know is that when I first made some noises about this "friend" biz bothering me she made the phone calls when I wasn't home. Kind of awful stuff.... Hearing ugly stuff doesn't sound good at all. Ugh I hate this...
> 
> We are both working crappy jobs so buying equipment like that is probably out.



Voice activated recorder are fairly cheap. Probably can get one for $40?

Couples therapy dont work if your wife is still continuing the affair. She'll use the therapy as a cover.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

The most important thing right now for you is to ensure that the affair is over, and for that, she MUST go NC with her OM. Whether it's an EA or PA is secondary until the affair is over, that's for making a decision to R or not and to get tested for STDs. Although you can't prove it, she has refused to go NC with OM, that in itself tells you how little she respects you and the marriage. 

Does she have a smart phone? If so, if its an iPhone, you can get iPhone Backup Extractor to check the backup logs, this will tell you what numbers she's calling and texting. If its an Android phone or a phone using the Android OS, you will have to get cell phone monitoring software like Mobile Spy or Mobiflex to check. You can get a VAR for $40 at Wal Mart or Best Buy, or whatever your local electronics store is. Yes, you're both working crappy jobs right? So how much is your marriage worth? Can you put a price tag on that?

MC is shown to be worthless while one partner is actively in the affair. MC is for when the both of you are trying to reconcile and committed to it.


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## Geoffrey Marsh (Aug 11, 2011)

aug said:


> Voice activated recorder are fairly cheap. Probably can get one for $40?
> 
> Couples therapy dont work if your wife is still continuing the affair. She'll use the therapy as a cover.



This is very true...from what I can glean from your remarks it sounds like the EA is a lot deeper than she is putting on. 

I would suggest you take a step back from the entire situation for awhile and get yourself squared away. That means take time to center yourself emotionally, spiritually and mentally before you make anymore decisions at all. IE: Take care of yourself first! 

In my opinion...the worst thing that happens to victims is the relentless roller coaster of lies. Waywards twist and turn you in so many directions its hard to tell which way is up. Couple this with the pain of betrayal and you find yourself loosing your mind. It is so very important to step out of the madness and regain your focus.

The only thing you really need to be doing at this point is:

1. Taking care of yourself
2. Declare a no-contact rule..via letter.
3. Monitor your wife.


Other than that, I wouldn't be doing anything else.


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## jnj express (Mar 28, 2011)

Hey X---what's the difference sex, or giving her heart away emotionally---she is in love with another, and it is inappropriate

She is all of a sudden giving you sex, to allay your suspicions, what has backfired, is she is doing something that has not been normal lately in your mge., so it has you wondering

She is using all her deceitful wiles, to keep you, her meal ticket where she wants you, even as she loves this other guy

For at this point there is some love there, it is a fantasy love affair, but it is happening, and you need to shut it down YESTERDAY

Make sure she understands completely that you cannot/will not try to control her, and she can obviously do as she pleases, but by the same token, you will not be part of a 3some, therefore, if she does not shut this down, you will move on, and make sure she knows D., is on the table

Putting D., on the table, hopefully will yank her back to reality, 

Make sure she understands, that if you 2 do seperate or D., she will be responsible for her half of everything, that the 2 of you took care of as a team up to now.

You need to be very harsh, or she will just continue to manipulate you, and do as she pleases

You need to out bluff her, that is if you even want to be with her, but if you do, you need to force upon her the reality, of being w/out her cozy little mge., and put the reality of everyday life with her scumbag lover firmly into her consciousness---once she sees this guy ain't quite what she thought he was, as reality sets in, the A. should hopefully end----if it doesn't well then you just move on, and start a new life.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

X-unknown,

You haven't yet described who this OM is. Is this a work place affair, online affair, or what? Do you know who OM is? Do you know if he's married or has a steady GF? Do you know where he lives? 

One of the best ways of killing the affair is to expose it to the right people. If he's married, expose it to his betrayed wife or GF. If this is a workplace affair, expose it to HR if you can. But the important thing is to exposure.


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## X-unknown (Oct 14, 2011)

Yes, I agree she has been misleading about the EA and I'm a bit surprised how creative she has been in misdirection etc. 

I've taken that step and am doing a couple of things to get myself squared away. I've talked to someone about some help on this and I'm not making any serious decisions for a while. And yes, your 100% correct this is making me "nuts" and that I would like to avoid.

*Other then the take care of myself stuff. A big part of this is making decisions on what to do based on what I "think" a guy does in this kind of situation.

As to the voice recorder, cell phone spy software etc. I know that knowing has helped me get to the truth about this but I'm not sure how this helps if I keep digging further and further. I think that now that its out in the open the odds that she would slip up (Assuming she decided to continue on) is low and the odds of her picking up me snooping and turning that around on me are great. 

I'm not sure what writing her a no contact letter does that having it out in therapy and at home didn't do. Is this for some future legal action because that is not what I'm gearing up for.

Ok, that all said I recognize that I'm new at this and probably making some mistakes that others have made. Hopefully you guys (and ladies) can slap me upside the head a bit if this sounds too stupid a plan.



Geoffrey Marsh said:


> This is very true...from what I can glean from your remarks it sounds like the EA is a lot deeper than she is putting on.
> 
> I would suggest you take a step back from the entire situation for awhile and get yourself squared away. That means take time to center yourself emotionally, spiritually and mentally before you make anymore decisions at all. IE: Take care of yourself first!
> 
> ...


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## X-unknown (Oct 14, 2011)

I know who he is and we've entertained him and had him over for dinner. Its one of those "friends from ________" things that seems to have gotten out of control. He is not married. The problem is that I think my wife is much more into him then the other way around. Its complicated and I'm not sure how much to say on the forum.



lordmayhem said:


> X-unknown,
> 
> You haven't yet described who this OM is. Is this a work place affair, online affair, or what? Do you know who OM is? Do you know if he's married or has a steady GF? Do you know where he lives?
> 
> One of the best ways of killing the affair is to expose it to the right people. If he's married, expose it to his betrayed wife or GF. If this is a workplace affair, expose it to HR if you can. But the important thing is to exposure.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

X-unknown said:


> As to the voice recorder, cell phone spy software etc. I know that knowing has helped me get to the truth about this but I'm not sure how this helps if I keep digging further and further.


The first thing that cheaters do, is that they will deny and deny, and minimize. Upon being confronted with evidence, they will then only admit to what you know. This is like seeing the tip of the iceberg. This is called Trickle Truth. 

I see from your other post, that OM is local, since you've had him over for dinner. So how exactly do you know that this is only an EA?? Do you have the proof? Is this what she told you? You know how many hundreds of stories that we've read here, that the WS first only admits to an EA, then come to find out, they held hands, and then it becomes hugs, then it becomes kisses, then it becomes oral, then the BS finds out that it did go physical so the WS says they only did it 1 time, only to finally find out that its been going on for some time, and they've had unprotected sex many times? I know you're a new BS, so the disbelief and denial is strong at this stage.

I've only very rarely seen WSs only have a PA, especially when their AP is local. EAs very quickly progress to full on PAs. 



X-unknown said:


> I think that now that its out in the open the odds that she would slip up (Assuming she decided to continue on) is low and the odds of her picking up me snooping and turning that around on me are great.


And this is the one of the MOST common mistakes, the newly betrayed like you do. Simply ASSUMING that on DDay, the WS won't do it again. Experience has shown that many WSs take the affair underground. They simply find another method of communication.

You need to understand how affairs are an addiction. They rarely break it off right away. At least one of the affair partners will attempt to renew contact. This is called fishing. You're assuming that you're wife is rational right now. When they are in the fog, they are not rational and will make irrational decisions.

You also need to get this idea out of your head that it's wrong to snoop. She cheated. You now have that right. Did you even click on any of the links in my signature? Check out the Betrayed Spouse Bill Of Rights. If she can turn it around on you, then she's not remorseful about the affair and the likelihood that she will do it again, are great. I like to call it verification.

Verification serves 2 purposes: It ensures that the WS has honored NC, the affair is over, and that you will be detect any fishing between the two of them. The second purpose is that it helps rebuild trust. Of course, you cannot tell your WW that you are checking on her. 



X-unknown said:


> I'm not sure what writing her a no contact letter does that having it out in therapy and at home didn't do. Is this for some future legal action because that is not what I'm gearing up for.


Writing the NC letter establishes a clear, written boundary that she will not contact her OM, and he cannot contact her, and if he does, she's breaking NC by giving you a lie of omission. I certainly hope that you're one of those guys who think that therapy is some magic pill that cures all. 



X-unknown said:


> Ok, that all said I recognize that I'm new at this and probably making some mistakes that others have made. Hopefully you guys (and ladies) can slap me upside the head a bit if this sounds too stupid a plan.


Yes, you're new at this alright, so you may need a 2x4 or two. Some posters, including myself, have links in our signature, you would do well to make use of them. Also, you need to hang around a bit more and read the threads of others, not just your own situation.

I've noticed that you've been VERY skimpy on the details of your situation. If you want help, you're going to have to be a bit forthcoming so people can advise you. Almost EVERYONE here has been betrayed and is going thru something similar to you. This isn't some random forum on the net. The others here who haven't been betrayed are former cheaters, and give valuable insight from being on "the other side". There are also those here who have been on both sides. You would be helping yourself a great deal by availing yourself of everyone's experience.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

X-
All this crap is complicated, thats why TAM is here, to help break it down and give you different perspectives.

As far as my perspective goes, I see this women manage her two lives. Yours which consists of stability and secerity, and her second life which consists of a taboo excitement that meets a need.

In my experience the best thing I did was make a plan, and hard as it was the indifference I mustered up to exicute my plan was in my best interest. Lets face it we can be our own enemy when it comes to emotions and matters of the heart.

Make a plan and work the plan. Establish your goals and create an agenda that will give your family the best out come.

In my case I had to do the painful investiagtion in to my WW loyality in order to have a effective confrontation in which deniablity was not an option and the only course of action my WW could take was admission and face the reality of her unhealthy behavior by looking at the black and white of it all.

A perverbal slap in the face that her behavior was unhealthy for the marriage and by looking at the black and white truth (in my colored pictures) that she was in fact having an affair...cheating you out of an emotional connection a H and W should have.

Please take the step in outlining a plan of attack that will protect you and your family. You diserve to know the truth in that your investment will pay out and that you are not spending your emotional value on someone that is not doing the same toward you. 

Please to the research that will confirm your W commitment and gather the proof that will set it all straight at the time of confrontation...no matter how painful it will be for the both of you. In doing this it will be a change in the marriage thats is greatly need, one way or another.


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## X-unknown (Oct 14, 2011)

I guess I'm concerned that if I spell out all the details she could come across this stuff? I'm both upset and ashamed that this stuff is happening. The whole why does the wife need to stray unless your a goon or whatever.

We have mutual friends (Married about as long as us) who have some sort of "What you do on the road - I don't care - just don't bring home any STDs thing" Which has my brain fizzling. I wonder if this sort of thing is making her think its ok with me since I don't get uptight with them. *Frankly I didn't want to know about this much less address it with them. 

Reading the last couple of replies is really super depressing. Its very much the same as the book I'm reading (Not just friends)

Ok - a rant and maybe this is just because I'm a older dude. I have to scratch my head on things like PA. I think "Public Address" then it clues in P.hysical A.ffair. Correct? I'm baffled why not just say "sex" or whatever? 

Ok, back to the point. I really have read a ton of stuff and like the time I knew things were going on in the back of my mind I know I'm not dealing with this very well. I'm at the whistling in the dark "laa dee dah - everything is ok, I'm cool" phase on the outside and the about to have a stroke / heart attack stage inside. I have been to the hospital once (physical not mental) already and right now I'm trying to get the depression and anxiety stuff under control so I really don't self destruct.

Ok, how do I "know" this is not sexual? I thought I said a number of times that I am 50:50 on this? btw one of the questions is this.... If you think you might have been exposed to STDs what do you exactly do? Is going to your GP the right thing or do you go into a clinic, say your JOHN SMITH and get tested that way? And does that even work?

And if your family doctor is your wife's doctor is that going to put the doctor in a difficult position? 

I will look at some no contact examples and ponder that. Yes, your totally right about her turning this back on me and the trickle truth. I wonder if there are any people who can report that they got the truth up front and didn't have to hear it in drips and drabs? 

BTW I've set up a date to talk to someone so I will have at least some relief from this ready to burst thing I'm going through. 

Has anyone heard of B.A.N. and does that help? In your opinion...


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## X-unknown (Oct 14, 2011)

Ok, I rarely clink on peoples links. I guess I've gone to too many sites selling some rubbish. So... I clicked on a few links and crap-o-mighty.... The The Betrayed Spouse (BS) Script. This is like reading myself in a Fing mirror. The bad thing is that this is like knowing your Airplane is going to crash. What do you do? Your still going to crash. I guess the one thing is to know that this depression stage is a normal part of this and do whatever you can to not let it roast your brain. The Bill of rights thing is all very well done but you know what? Denial (even reading this!!!) is still a problem. Is that insane or what? 

Sheesh.......


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## Arnold (Oct 25, 2011)

X-unknown said:


> I guess I'm answering this twice but I have her saying its not. I guess even if its not a sexual thing the EA is bad enough. I do 180s a lot on if I believe her. I've had a number of clues that there is something she is not being truthful about but thats a gut feeling not any facts.
> 
> Truth be told I'm kind of freaked out about finding out. Right now I've gotten to the point that I'm handling the EA (Assuming its over) but I think adding in sex makes this into a much more difficult issue. I think we could still move forward but I'm a little worried that I it might make me explode.


Oh, I didn't realize she told you it was non-physical. In that case, you can rest easy.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Arnold said:


> Oh, I didn't realize she told you it was non-physical. In that case, you can rest easy.


You're a bad boy Arnold.


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## X-unknown (Oct 14, 2011)

Arnold said:


> Oh, I didn't realize she told you it was non-physical. In that case, you can rest easy.


We've been married more then 20 years and she hasn't been known to lie to me before so this IS really hard to accept.


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## Arnold (Oct 25, 2011)

I know. It sucks.But cheaters lie. It's one of the fundamental laws of nature. 
Will she take a polygraph?


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## Geoffrey Marsh (Aug 11, 2011)

X-unknown said:


> I'm not sure what writing her a no contact letter does that having it out in therapy and at home didn't do. Is this for some future legal action because that is not what I'm gearing up for.



The idea here is for her to write a no-contact letter to him. This way it establishes the point of time when she is supposed to stop talking/seeing this other guy. 

It's just a good way of establishing a boundary and to test her commitment level. If she refuses to send a no-contact letter this is a good sign that the affair is much deeper than what is being said.

It's not for any legal action.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Have you put a VAR under her car seat yet? Have you lost focus?


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

X-unknown said:


> Ok - a rant and maybe this is just because I'm a older dude. I have to scratch my head on things like PA. I think "Public Address" then it clues in P.hysical A.ffair. Correct? I'm baffled why not just say "sex" or whatever?


Because the PA is a culmination of the EA. First, they've given their hearts to the OM in the EA, then the give their body in the PA. It's still an affair, either way. But for some, a PA makes the difference between R or D. My deal breaker is the PA. 



X-unknown said:


> If you think you might have been exposed to STDs what do you exactly do? Is going to your GP the right thing or do you go into a clinic, say your JOHN SMITH and get tested that way? And does that even work?


It's embarassing to say the least. Which ever is less embarassing for you.



X-unknown said:


> And if your family doctor is your wife's doctor is that going to put the doctor in a difficult position?


No it shouldn't. Doctor-Patient confidentiality and HIPA rules apply. They're used to that. Just like your doctor wouldn't be able to tell you about her medical history or even if she went to see him.



X-unknown said:


> I will look at some no contact examples and ponder that. Yes, your totally right about her turning this back on me and the trickle truth. I wonder if there are any people who can report that they got the truth up front and didn't have to hear it in drips and drabs?


Very rarely have I ever seen a WS give full disclosure without any proof from the BS. It's usually when the BS has all the evidence that the WS can't TT their way out of it. 



X-unknown said:


> We've been married more then 20 years and she hasn't been known to lie to me before so this IS really hard to accept.


Yes it is, VERY. I thought my own fWW was the most honest person on earth and would never lie to me too. We survived my military career, all the shift work, deployments, etc, etc,. Yet in the 20th year of our marriage, all it took for her to cheat was reconnecting with an old HS boyfriend on facebook. Then I got the whole "I swear to God", "God is my witness", etc, denials. The evidence showed otherwise.

You need to get over this embrassment and denial, sooner, rather than later.


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## X-unknown (Oct 14, 2011)

Whew... This is all really difficult to process. I've read a ton of the links and they are all well written, well thought out but the one thing that makes this different is that you all know (Have facts, admissions etc) of sexual affairs / emotional affairs. I know I could be having the same problem but I don't know for a fact that I do. I think moving forward assuming I do leads to serious fireworks. I think being in couples therapy is some kind of indication that she is interested in making "us" work. And btw she was the one who suggested it. I've got a date with a therapist (Who also does couples therapy) to talk one on one with about my fears and concerns. I'm really in no hurry to use the marital nuclear option. 

I'm reconsidering the idea of a voice operated recorder. I guess knowing whats really going on is at least as important as knowing what to do when I have some facts. To be totally honest I think its mostly worry about what I could find out.



lordmayhem said:


> Because the PA is a culmination of the EA. First, they've given their hearts to the OM in the EA, then the give their body in the PA. It's still an affair, either way. But for some, a PA makes the difference between R or D. My deal breaker is the PA.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

X-unknown said:


> Whew... This is all really difficult to process. I've read a ton of the links and they are all well written, well thought out but the one thing that makes this different is that you all know (Have facts, admissions etc) of sexual affairs / emotional affairs. I know I could be having the same problem but I don't know for a fact that I do. I think moving forward assuming I do leads to serious fireworks. I think being in couples therapy is some kind of indication that she is interested in making "us" work. And btw she was the one who suggested it. I've got a date with a therapist (Who also does couples therapy) to talk one on one with about my fears and concerns. I'm really in no hurry to use the marital nuclear option.
> 
> I'm reconsidering the idea of a voice operated recorder. I guess knowing whats really going on is at least as important as knowing what to do when I have some facts. To be totally honest I think its mostly worry about what I could find out.


Because you have not done the digging to find out. You have gotten excellent advice on keyloggers, VARs etc. Use it. As for therapy, you can't counsel your way through issues that you don't know about.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

X-unknown said:


> Whew... This is all really difficult to process. I've read a ton of the links and they are all well written, well thought out but the one thing that makes this different is that you all know (Have facts, admissions etc) of sexual affairs / emotional affairs. I know I could be having the same problem but I don't know for a fact that I do. I think moving forward assuming I do leads to serious fireworks. I think being in couples therapy is some kind of indication that she is interested in making "us" work. And btw she was the one who suggested it. I've got a date with a therapist (Who also does couples therapy) to talk one on one with about my fears and concerns. I'm really in no hurry to use the marital nuclear option.


IC is fine, MC does no good while your WW is in the affair, and you won't know if she's still in the affair until you investigate. If you stay here long enough, you'll read enough stories of the WS lying during MC, lying to the MC, and lying to the BS during the session. 

It's up to you what you want to do. Read other threads, get some perspective and experience. I'm outtie this thread and moving on to others who are more willing to move forward. The denial and fear is still strong in you. You most likely need to suffer a little more in limbo before gaining the strength to act decisively.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Many a WW suggests MC as a way to appear to be doing something, to put off the husband from ending the affair on her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

My sister is a marriage therapist and tells me that frequently she has one spouse tell her in private individual session that they are in an affair, yet they deny it in couples therapy. In the USA the therapist is prohibited from revealing anything said in private, so she cannot tell the betrayed spouse that his wife is lying right there in couples therapy! Really a @#$%y position to put a therapist in.

X-unknown, I understand that you want some kind of solid information on the affair. You may or many not get it. I think it is just as important to consider what your boundaries are outside of a physical affair. For example, are you willing to put up with partial trust? Do you need full complete open access to her electronic communications? What if she is still in an EA now? What if she starts acting secretive in the future, what will you accept?

It is too easy to zero in on the sex as the deal breaker. It leaves you in limbo when you don't know for sure. The other factors are really every bit as important in terms of being able to have a loving trusting strong marriage relationship.

Most important is to trust your gut and to not give in to fear.


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## Geoffrey Marsh (Aug 11, 2011)

lordmayhem said:


> IC is fine, MC does no good while your WW is in the affair, and you won't know if she's still in the affair until you investigate. If you stay here long enough, you'll read enough stories of the WS lying during MC, lying to the MC, and lying to the BS during the session.
> 
> It's up to you what you want to do. Read other threads, get some perspective and experience. I'm outtie this thread and moving on to others who are more willing to move forward. The denial and fear is still strong in you. You most likely need to suffer a little more in limbo before gaining the strength to act decisively.



:iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## X-unknown (Oct 14, 2011)

Hi Thor and others. 

Thor - I didn't know this about therapists not being able to "talk across the board" in couples therapy. I am thinking now about the suggestion that was made to make it truly "co" therapy. RIght now its her therapy for couples that I'm "invited to" I guess. Maybe the therapist is trying to find an angle to be allowed to fill me in? Or does it still work that way? Sheesh I'm sounding paranoid to myself right now.

To everyone I appreciate the advise (Honest) but I guess I'm not too keen on moving along faster and doing what you wished you had done or whatever. Am I freaked out? Damn straight. I think the problem is that we are not on the right page. I think that everyone is assuming that sex is the only deal breaker. For me (anyway) no! The Emotional Affair is right up there. This may sound totally chick like but if she had a one night stand with some random guy it would be awful but I think it could be solvable. The EA *And one that went into stealth mode when I said "This makes me really uncomfortable." That has me more uptight. So, for those who keep pestering me to put voice recorders under her seat or rewire her cell phone please stop. BTW maybe its the lack of "tone" in text but some of you guys are sounding really angry that I'm not acting the way you would or think I should. I'm sorry about your problems and how they turned out - whatever... but please f off. I don't need this.

I don't really have to find more "truth" to be uptight. It doesn't have to be "worse" to cross my line. Right now I think more bad news on this will (really) just make my head explode. Depression which is talked about as one of the stages is where I'm at and I'm talking the clinical kind *See a doctor get on some meds and do some talk therapy.

Getting a handle on that is my "plan" before I go forward.



Thor said:


> My sister is a marriage therapist and tells me that frequently she has one spouse tell her in private individual session that they are in an affair, yet they deny it in couples therapy. In the USA the therapist is prohibited from revealing anything said in private, so she cannot tell the betrayed spouse that his wife is lying right there in couples therapy! Really a @#$%y position to put a therapist in.
> 
> X-unknown, I understand that you want some kind of solid information on the affair. You may or many not get it. I think it is just as important to consider what your boundaries are outside of a physical affair. For example, are you willing to put up with partial trust? Do you need full complete open access to her electronic communications? What if she is still in an EA now? What if she starts acting secretive in the future, what will you accept?
> 
> ...


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## sadcalifornian (Sep 18, 2011)

Well, the fact that he is local and this EA has been going on for a while means that it was likely PA. However, that is not your deal breaker and you do not want to snoop either. So, I guess that you just keep working on your marraige with help of counselor and try love depositing as much as possible. Someday when things have settled down a bit and your feel your footing is solid, you may ask for more details of A from her. 

For now, just stay in the course, and try plan A. Good luck with you.


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## WasDecimated (Mar 23, 2011)

X-unknown,
My wife of 15 years had an affair too. 

My gut was telling me there was something wrong. I went into detective mode. I found out by looking at the Cell phone bills. I confronted her and she admitted that they were friends and she liked talking to him but nothing more. She absolutely denied anything emotional or physical. It had been going on for 3 months. I demanded NC or I would D her...she agreed. That was in August 2009. 

In January 2011 I noticed she was acting strange again....back to detective mode. I got into her facebook and noticed messages from the same guy that were fairly new. I put a GPS tracker on her car and guess what? within 2 weeks...hotel! 

I confronted again. This time she said it was an EA and they went there to talk because she knew I suspected...really? She adamantly denied it was physical. Remember, this was a woman who I was married to for almost 15 years and we have 3 children together. I NEVER, repeat NEVER thought she would cheat on me or even lie to me. She was still lying to me even when I had good proof.

To make a long story short, I contacted the OM's wife to inform her. It turns out she new more then I did in fact, she sent me thousands of messages between my WW and OM that she got from his computer. Wow...Excruciating!

Their affair had never stopped. It turns out it was just a EA the first time I found out. She lied about NC, took it underground with her Smart phone and within 4 months it was a full blown PA. It went on for another year before I found out the second time.

The point I am trying to make is cheaters, even previously honest spouses can change into someone you never thought they were. Affairs are like an addiction to them. Some will not stop and will lie through their teeth to protect themselves, their affair partner, and you from the truth.


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## X-unknown (Oct 14, 2011)

Decimated said:


> X-unknown,
> My wife of 15 years had an affair too.
> 
> My gut was telling me there was something wrong. I went into detective mode. I found out by looking at the Cell phone bills. I confronted her and she admitted that they were friends and she liked talking to him but nothing more. She absolutely denied anything emotional or physical. It had been going on for 3 months. I demanded NC or I would D her...she agreed. That was in August 2009.
> ...


We've been together a long time (Even longer then you) so that adds to making this difficult to believe.

I really don't know what to think about all this. I believe that she has been untruthful already but her admitting it in anyway has been impossible. When I've called her on things I know (such as her Cell phone bill) I don't get a yes, or no I get silence or claims of ignorance. The addiction comment has my attention. I've known she has a problem with that for a long time but...

I think I may have an incredible capacity for self delusion or everything IS really as she has said in therapy. I'm praying (for real) that this nightmare ends. *Or the meds kick in...

On the GPS tracker. She actually said something to the effect that maybe I need to put one in her car. I really didn't know what to say at that point thinking she was trying to prove she wasn't up to anything but? I really don't know. Seeing a professional might help me get a clear idea (Other then to deal with the Depression / anxiety stuff. I've never been keen on drugs but right now I'm happy to have them keep me from going more insane over this junk.

She has told me that she is afraid to "talk" because she is worried how I will respond and its only sinking in now that it may not be because we have communications issues - it might just be the content. AKA what exactly she has to say.

I can't remember where I heard this but the quote goes something like this.
"There is a certain freedom in being totally screwed. It means that nothing you do is going to make it any worse." At least thats how I feel right now.

Anyway thanks for the input. I think the addiction comment truly explains the inability she had (Has?) in letting this EA go.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

The reason people use keyloggers on computers, Var's, phone/text bills etc. is not to spy but verify. People in a EA/PA lie,100%. Your in a situation where you have no idea whats going on and the most important thing is to stop the madness is get to the truth.

Your in a war with the other man, whether you like it or not, and alls fair in love and war. You can hide or come out and fight but its your choice.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

X-unknown said:


> So, for those who keep pestering me to put voice recorders under her seat or rewire her cell phone please stop. BTW maybe its the lack of "tone" in text but some of you guys are sounding really angry that I'm not acting the way you would or think I should. I'm sorry about your problems and how they turned out - whatever... but please f off. I don't need this.


Wow, to tell the community here that HAVE BEEN IN YOUR SHOES, to F*CK OFF, after coming here for advice is a little disappointing to say the least. It seems you have your own plan, and that's fine, do what you think is right. Good luck with that. I'll say no more in this thread.


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## X-unknown (Oct 14, 2011)

lordmayhem said:


> Wow, to tell the community here that HAVE BEEN IN YOUR SHOES, to F*CK OFF, after coming here for advice is a little disappointing to say the least. It seems you have your own plan, and that's fine, do what you think is right. Good luck with that. I'll say no more in this thread.


Thats good. I appreciate that. *Note: I didn't tell everyone on the forum to F off. Just the ones who think their advice will be better received with snide comments about how I've been told what to do and since I'm not blindly following the advice to hell with you type of thing. I would think some of you might have a tiny bit more empathy since you have all dealt with this? Maybe your still angry about what you did or didn't do? Personally I don't care what your problem is but I'm a bit touchy right now and not feeling particularly rational.

I don't think some of you guys even read these posts you just block copy your "Get a Keylogger, put recorders in her car, etc" After the first dozen times? I got it. If you read what I've said you might notice that I've said I don't NEED more proof. I've got her phone records and an admission to the EA. I'm trying right now to "deal" not investigate more. Does it matter if its more then an Emotional connection? Yes, but not that much and my focus right now is me. This is really messing me up and I would like to get that under control before I go rage into things.

I had hoped for some more advice (Other then the spy stuff - I got that a long time ago when I googled Affair) Ok, I admit the links at the bottom of some of the posts have been pretty eye opening but sheesh. You guys get on one thing and never let up other then to tell me "You won't listen? Your a waste of my valuable time." Excuse me for wasting your time and interrupting your agenda.


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## sadcalifornian (Sep 18, 2011)

You can ignore the posts that you don't agree. Even the snooping advices are born out of experiences of such needs, which have been proven time and time again valid. It's not just for the "proof", but so that you know what is exactly going on behind your back. 

Anyway, you come across rude and stubborn. Is this the side of you your W has been enduring all these years?


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## Geoffrey Marsh (Aug 11, 2011)

Well it's a shame that you feel that way. The VAR and spy stuff is really only a verification tool. It's used to see if in fact the affair has stopped. Which many...many...most do not.

The people here are trying to save you time and energy...because all the couples therapy, talking it out, working on things isn't worth the darn if the affair is still going on.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

You got valuable and useful advice, which was aimed at learning the full extent of what you are up against. Just like a car mechanic must find the problem before they can begin to fix things, you need to arm yourself with knowledge.

Yes you get told to use tools, and yes these same tools get told to most people who come here saying they think or know there SO is doing something outside the boundaries of marriage and are not beng honest. So you get told about what tools have been found to work and how to use them. 

After you actually know where the cancer lies you then can step up and get advice on cutting it out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## X-unknown (Oct 14, 2011)

sadcalifornian said:


> You can ignore the posts that you don't agree. Even the snooping advices are born out of experiences of such needs, which have been proven time and time again valid. It's not just for the "proof", but so that you know what is exactly going on behind your back.
> 
> Anyway, you come across rude and stubborn. Is this the side of you your W has been enduring all these years?


Wow.... so..... your saying this is my fault? Great... I think everyone likes to hear "Listen to me - if you don't listen to me - I'm done with you" I think men dealing with cheating wives want to hear that its their fault. Don't you wish your doctor, friends, parents etc all said that kind of thing to you? I also love the advise that therapy is a waste of time. For real? Really? 

I'm quite sure that I have been screwed over by my wife of 20+ years with this guy. Again - I've snooped already. I have the phone records and her admission that this went too far. Do I need to know more? Right now I need to know I'm not going to have a stroke over this. I'm not far from the D-Day" and I'm (honestly) seriously flipping my wig. - like give me drugs so I don't drop dead level stuff. I know that some of you just were tough macho types and said, "Lawyer up *****" and got a D and moved on - no sweat. Great... Good for you. I've already been there and done that. And no - it wasn't because I was a rude jerk or angry etc. 

My point is that I'm in a bad bad place and this is knowing what I already know. I'm pretty sure getting more info is not going to be good for me at this time. 

One person said to take care of yourself and that advice has really helped. The other advice that I truly value was "make a plan" and I have. It involves taking care of myself first so I can do anything else. For me it means couples therapy *Which is where this came out and it was the efforts of the therapist that made it happen or at least helped. A plan that says "Keep going with what has worked" seems to me like at least a fair plan. Right? Wrong? I'm probably a bit older (And crabbier) then most of you and I'm not in super good shape health wise. So, the other part of my plan was the take care of yourself first suggestion so - I've talked this over with my Doc and with the Doc's help I'm not worrying that I'm going to croak from thinking about this over and over and over. The advice I got from the Doc (Who says this is not uncommon - and they have dealt with this many times) has been good. The doc btw didn't tell me "Do this or I'm done with you" Which I think was very professional. The doc didn't tell me that this was my fault either.

Whatever you want to suggest or demand from me. In the end this is my life and my problem. Ok? If you gents feel so strongly that I'm wrong? Ok, but don't expect me to love hearing that this is my fault and how much I'm a waste of your time because I don't do this like you want. 

I came to learn what others have - but I haven't signed an oath to do it.

Most of you have been nice and a valued resource. I think that some of you think you have all the answers and know everything about this situation (and us) from reading a few posts. I think some of the posts have been arrogant and rude. So I responded. If you don't like the thread or how I react to your posts? Or me saying "F off?" maybe thats harsh and maybe none of you use the "F" word. but why are those of you who don't want to waste your valuable time with my little problem interested in spending your valuable time posting me that you are done wasting your valuable time with me? Do you seriously think that will help someone in this situation? I can't imagine why you would read this thread if your not interested in supporting people who are going through things that have happened to you. 

Honestly - if you were in my position how would you feel? If there wasn't a lot of really good information from some of you I would have been long gone from this forum already. Yeah I know. Don't let the door hit me in the ass when I leave...

Crap - once again I'm not saying this well and it probably is just offending more of you. I'm sorry. This is major league stress (And totally unexpected btw) and for added fun its combined with a lot more stress from other directions I haven't mentioned.


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## Geoffrey Marsh (Aug 11, 2011)

Wow...X-unknown. I feel ya. 

Listen...the road you are on sucks...sucks and sucks some more. There is no other way to say it.

Keep on keeping on...and take care of yourself first.


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## X-unknown (Oct 14, 2011)

Thanks Geoffry. I appreciate it. I've taken a couple of steps in the taking care of myself direction and hopefully it gets better soon.


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## lostalso (Feb 21, 2012)

Speaking as a person who has myself been in her position, all roads lead to sex my EA of two years I never allowed myself to cross a line. I even told myself that I was not attracted to this person in that way. 
But it did eventually lead to that, and I even justified it in my head because I am in a marriage with a person who is very controlling and emotionally abusive. Yes I regret it now, but can recognize these actions in other people. and can't believe their spouses do not see it..


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## X-unknown (Oct 14, 2011)

I had to take a mental vacation from this (my) thread. This was getting tough tough tough tough tough (As Mick Jagger says in "Shattered or was it When the whip comes down)

I had a message (thanks Chap) asking me for an update. So... #1 I went into take care of me mode. My doctor judged that I was taking this really really hard and put me on a few meds. This has helped me NOT spend my entire waking day feeling lower then whale poop. I also started doing therapy (myself) and got together a "this is just not going to work plan" and my wife picked up on that (girl radar) right away. I told her that her radar was 100% correct but that I was still working on this with her. She told me (in therapy) that she was sorry if she did something that made me feel bad. Which I thought was the lousiest self serving babble ever and told her that was worse then no apology. It was more like saying "I'm sorry your so thin skinned that I can't go off with other men" and told her so. 

We ended up reading a lot of books. "Not just friends" was a good one. The couples therapist gave her some "read this" and pried more of what she was up to with the other man. Can't remember the title (exactly) but there is this really thin book about helping your partner get over your affair or? Anyway I flipped through that and got a copy for WW. She told me that "Not just friends" really hit her, that the how to heal your spouse after your affair? helped her understand better what was going on with me. And.... she gave me a REAL apology and broke down and told me how it was really not "just friends" and that it wasn't just him chasing her around it was mutual. So, I had one of those "Which way do I go with this?" and it was really hard.. but the one thing that made me stick with this and try to fix it is that way before I had a clue about this going on she was the one to ask for couples therapy. That and her coming clean (Humm.... at least coming MORE clean) with me made up my mind to keep giving this a chance. I found a BAN group (Spouses who were cheated on type of thing) Really eye opening and I want to say that it was of value to be able to talk it out and hear that we are not even close to being alone in this. *Not that this makes it "ok" it just makes it a tiny bit less "is this just me?" 

So - we made it past Valentines day which was a tough one. I kind of did the "fake it until you make it" which has been maybe the best advice I got. I was told that its the 12 step program condensed (I don't know and hopefully that not an insult) Anyway I got a very odd V-Day card which was is a keeper. For that (Hopefully) day I can look back at this and not tense up and want to rip my own head off.

Ok, one reply on the all roads lead to sex when you have an EA. I think this is focused on too much. Someone else said this better then I will but her being in love with another man is "ok" compared to her having sex? I brought that up at the BAN meeting and everyone went around saying they all felt the EA was worse then some random one night stand. And the long term lying etc were the worst. So I guess I'm saying sex? Or not? Its not a hill of beans different to me at this point. 

Not that I didn't get HIV / STD tests. (I'm not infected with anything)

Another thing is that there are a pretty fair number of people who were able to survive (Stay Married). They gave some good ideas and one of them is to keep going to group meetings. I think for a variety of reasons.

Anyway I really feel for the people who are just starting to deal with this. I watched three people come close to falling apart at the BAN meeting and my heart goes out to them. I wish there was some way to show the wayward ones a picture of them to show how much this hurts the people they are screwing around on. Maybe it would make the world a "bit" less 60 to 70% cheating over the course of a marriage? Or not... Its a sad world.

OK, I've babbled enough. Hang in there guys and girls. I nearly let this crap kill me (Serious stress health issues) So it could be worse!


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

This looks like you are on the way to healing. You and your wife are still together. Are you certain when they ended contact? Did she end contact because she thought she would lose you? Ever talk to the other man? Do you think you will save the marriage? Is she 100% committed?


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

Thanks for the update. It appears that you have made some progress.



X-unknown said:


> She told me (in therapy) that she was sorry if she did something that made me feel bad. Which I thought was the lousiest self serving babble ever and told her that was worse then no apology.


 You were right in calling her out for the "sorry if she did something that made" you feel bad comment. It is a false apology since it is not acknowledging that she did anything wrong.



X-unknown said:


> I brought that up at the BAN meeting and everyone went around saying they all felt the EA was worse then some random one night stand. And the long term lying etc were the worst. So I guess I'm saying sex? Or not? Its not a hill of beans different to me at this point.


EAs are by definition long term and ONS are by definition one off, thus the EA being worse than a ONS is a loaded question that does not address the physical affair (PA) aspect of an EA. If a EA goes physical, the the PA is long term and not a one off thing. The physical sex aspect of an EA is also more intimate and bonding and this needs to be addressed for you to be able to heal. You giving her a pass on this is nothing more than rug sweeping. You need to know and the sooner that you know the sooner you can begin true reconciliation.

As for you saying that 60% to 70% will cheat over the course of a marraige, that number has been thrown out there based on one questionable study and is used to make people feel better about being cheated on. Most university and other major studies put the number much lower, such as a major University of Chicago study which put men at 22% and women at 15%; these numbers are similar to the results of a study by MSNBC.

Be well and good luck. Thanks again for the update.


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## X-unknown (Oct 14, 2011)

TRy said:


> Thanks for the update. It appears that you have made some progress.
> 
> EAs are by definition long term and ONS are by definition one off, thus the EA being worse than a ONS is a loaded question that does not address the physical affair (PA) aspect of an EA. If a EA goes physical, the the PA is long term and not a one off thing. The physical sex aspect of an EA is also more intimate and bonding and this needs to be addressed for you to be able to heal. You giving her a pass on this is nothing more than rug sweeping. You need to know and the sooner that you know the sooner you can begin true reconciliation.
> 
> ...


One of the things I did was to take the really close friends and count how many had some kind of affair issues (I was interested in how many had stayed together ) and I got a fairly close number to that one "thrown out" *And it was about 50% I assume that some never told anyone about an affair. I say that because some divorces were deep dark secrets. My observation is that 60 - to 70% is close. Its sure not 20% (in my world) 

I want to add that maybe this is because I'm not young so that "over a lifetime" might be more accurate? Maybe I expressed this wrong? Knowing this made "me" feel a little better. Can we agree on that?

Do I know that she has cut off contact? That was a huge problem for me in therapy. i was told "There is nothing I can do. She can decide to do that or she can decide to leave totally and there is (in reality) little I can do about it. 

Before this I drove around and checked up on her a couple of times and it was making me crazy and she picked up on it "Her Radar." The shrink was right btw. It didn't make me feel safe. If she wanted to contact him she could use her work phone. She has part time jobs and she could lie about when she was at work. So do I "know"? No, I do not know and I don't think anyone can say so (100%) either.

When she started this I was picking up on this even before it crossed the line - EA stage. I even told her that I had this feeling but of course she said "he is just a friend" and "you are crazy because" and gave me a load of reasons this was impossible. I let the "rational" part of my brain override my "radar" I thought it was more likely I was "crazy." BTW Her radar appears to be working pretty well because she picked up in an instant that I was setting up a D plan in case R didn't work. 

I would like to add this and hopefully its food for thought and not just an angry reply from the crabby old guy *Which is how it ended last time. There are many issues when people text, email etc because tone is difficult to inject into the written word. And I will admit I am reacting with emotion and maybe this is me picking up "tone" thats not there?

Here it goes anyway. Maybe take this as food for thought. I have to remember why I took a vacation from this site and I think I can sum it up using the points you made with your reply. I came here to see what others were doing about this and use that information (or not) to decide what I would do. There are a lot of good suggestions and I think its helpful to hear the experiences of other. But some of it I didn't do and had the nerve to say so. Take the putting a VAR under the wife's seat in her car. My answer to that was I already knew. I already had enough facts to make me either D or know I needed to work on the R plan. I got heat about that. I added that wasting money on this that I don't have didn't make sense because *Again I had all the information I needed. And then I got replies that my relationship ought to be "worth" the price of a VAR. - So, does that come across ok. My tone is (irritated) because no one seemed to say anything about my response they only seemed (to me) to be saying your wrong - do what your told. 

I didn't come here to debate or be told what to do. I go to couples therapy and see a shrink for that ;-) and they BTW are not perfect. Even if so far the advice we've gotten has been working. And this is from a professional with more then one or two personal experiences - degrees on the wall and years on the job. Don't take this wrong but I don't know who you guys. You might be experts but to me your random people on the internet. I strongly suspect the vast majority of you are not trained or licensed to give advice on this topic. . 


I dunno - Does anyone "get" me?


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

X-unknown said:


> they BTW are not perfect. Even if so far the advice we've gotten has been working. And this is from a professional with more then one or two personal experiences - degrees on the wall and years on the job. Don't take this wrong but I don't know who you guys. You might be experts but to me your random people on the internet. I strongly suspect the vast majority of you are not trained or licensed to give advice on this topic. .
> 
> I dunno - Does anyone "get" me?


 I get it. It appears that you may not understand our role. We do not claim on this board to replace professional marraige counseling (MC) or individual counseling (IC). Far from it in fact, as MC and IC is recommend many times on almost every thread on this board. In the US legal system there is not only a judge and professional legal counsel, there is a jury of your peers. Peers that are there to make sure that the legal system is subject to a reality check by regular people. We are nothing more than that. We are your peers. We are here to give you a reality check.


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## AngryandUsed (Jun 23, 2011)

Buddy, I read your thread. I do not understand what you want from this thread. When advised by some, you say you already know, have done VAR etc. If you have known that your wife cheated even emmotionally - I see that for you ONS is okay rather than an EA - what are you seeking here? 

Are you trying to validate what you have done? 
If EA was the deal breaker, you already have your answer.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

I get it also.
But stop telling me I'm not qualified (my tone is humor) just b/c I can't spell doesn't mean I have a valid view point (my tone is still humor).

Seriously, I'm glad you posted your point. TAM realy is a forum that folks should take what they need and leave what doesn't help.

TRy mentions reality checks, I think that is also is a big part of CWI often its hard to see through the forest, and others perspective also offer a point of view from the outside looking in.....if you know what I mean.

It should always be the individuals choice to use any advice professional or other wise when it comes to dealing with infidelity. Everyone can say that this is the hardest thing to ever deal with and unfortunely we are no alone.


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## X-unknown (Oct 14, 2011)

TRy said:


> I get it. It appears that you may not understand our role. We do not claim on this board to replace professional marraige counseling (MC) or individual counseling (IC). Far from it in fact, as MC and IC is recommend many times on almost every thread on this board. In the US legal system there is not only a judge and professional legal counsel, there is a jury of your peers. Peers that are there to make sure that the legal system is subject to a reality check by regular people. We are nothing more than that. We are your peers. We are here to give you a reality check.


I can't decide? Laugh or pull the plug. You just said your not the Judge or Executioner your just my Jury? I want my Lawyer! Who btw is the Judge? 

So people are supposed to come here to get a verdict? Which is? What? Guilty of causing this? and or guilty of not dealing with it the way the Jury of my Peers would? For real? 

Wow...... Really. just Wow.... I don't know what to say to that. I'm sort of speechless.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

> I can't decide? Laugh or pull the plug. You just said your not the Judge or Executioner your just my Jury? I want my Lawyer! Who btw is the Judge?
> 
> So people are supposed to come here to get a verdict? Which is? What? Guilty of causing this? and or guilty of not dealing with it the way the Jury of my Peers would? For real?
> 
> Wow...... Really. just Wow.... I don't know what to say to that. I'm sort of speechless


If you can't swim, stay out of the water dude. We're just electrons on your computer screen... We don't know you, and frankly we don't really care what you do nor do we wish to expend the emotional energy worrying about what happens to you one way or another. 

You came here for advice and we gave it. If you don't like our answers, go visit another website and quit wasting everyone's time.


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## X-unknown (Oct 14, 2011)

AngryandUsed said:


> Buddy, I read your thread. I do not understand what you want from this thread. When advised by some, you say you already know, have done VAR etc. If you have known that your wife cheated even emmotionally - I see that for you ONS is okay rather than an EA - what are you seeking here?
> 
> Are you trying to validate what you have done?
> If EA was the deal breaker, you already have your answer.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I know long messages can be a pain to read so I understand that your not reading my posts. If you had read them you would see that I did NOT buy a VAR and that was one of the early "arguments". I think I even mention this in the previous message as an example. Let me try again. I caught my wife making hundreds of calls to her "boyfriend" Got an admission of an EA. I made the point that it wasn't important to have more proof (you got that part right). I made a comment wasted money when I know enough to ponder "D" already. ie Buying a VAR is a waste of money. I got a messages about how I'm bad for not spending money on this because my marriage is important... 

You asked why did I come here? Thats a fair question. And one that maybe I just didn't spell out or I did it badly. I came here to see if anyone had R. I wanted to hear what they did and then make up my mind on how to proceed. Thats really the core. Whats your story? what was important? and then I choose to make up my mind how I will proceed. For gosh sakes does that sound so unreasonable? I've got a fair number of friends who D because of some infidelity. I don't know anyone that has R And anyway I can't ask them because I'm not willing to drag them into this and have a "Whose side are you on?" situation. But if I did and my best friend in the world told me what to do I would not feel obligated to do what he suggested. Would you or anyone else say that everyone's experience is the same and have the black and white answer to infidelity?


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

X-unknown said:


> I can't decide? Laugh or pull the plug. You just said your not the Judge or Executioner your just my Jury?


 I did not say that we were your jury. I said that we were your peers. I used the example not to say that this is a trial and we are a jury, but to point out that there is a useful roll for non-professional peers even in our court system. I said this in response to your comment about us not being trained MCs and was pointing out that we do not need to be trained MC and IC professionals to have a useful roll as your peers. I said that as peers we are nothing more than a reality check.

I do not know why you are looking to find the most negative possible interpretation of what I and others have said to you in an effort to help, but you are in a difficult time so I will give you a pass and again wish you the best.


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## X-unknown (Oct 14, 2011)

bandit.45 said:


> If you can't swim, stay out of the water dude. We're just electrons on your computer screen... We don't know you, and frankly we don't really care what you do nor do we wish to expend the emotional energy worrying about what happens to you one way or another.
> 
> You came here for advice and we gave it. If you don't like our answers, go visit another website and quit wasting everyone's time.


Oh crap its late I can't sleep and I get your message... SIGH

Bandit45: Swim? Water? but what does that even mean?

I know I type out long messages and its a pain to read "books" by some dude on the internet but reading mine will take a minute or two. Would you be willing to lighten up for like two minutes and read this? I would appreciate it. And everyone else that wants to? Jump in

I'm dying of curiosity. Bandit45 How did you make out? 

A: Did you do everything per the book (here)

B: Did you Divorce or not?

And if not? How is it going? And for how long? 

Answering that would help me understand your experience. Which I thought would be an important point of this forum. I'm curious. 

re the last or second to last reply I made. I am very interested in experiences and outcomes but heres the deal. I'm not interested in knowing more about Divorce. I have all the knowledge and lawyers that I need. I'm not interested in better ways to spy or monitor my wife. *Talked about that more then once and I don't want to explain it again. I'm not interested in finding new ways to motivate my wife. Right? Wrong? BUZZ Sorry but the only vote that counts is mine. I'm an adult and I can agree to disagree. Or at the least I don't care if my decisions about my life aren't ok with anyone else. I WILL listen. I've read most of the posts here and a large stack of books. I don't agree with the one shoe fits all thing.  At least for now 

The other side is that maybe a lot of you will tell me your experience (A B C) and I will change my mind. I still have the only vote that counts but in my universe I vote in a new decision at any time. Not every 4 years.

Its not a matter of me "liking" what I'm told. I choose to take some advice and not others. Admission time: I don't like being "told" what to do. Sorry thats just me. So whats up? Are you offended because I don't agree with everything = he is demeaning our genius = so we don't like him. 

I know this place is filled with a lot of angry and hurt people. I also know that joining this "club" is not something any of us wanted to do. Yeah I've snapped at people when I've gotten overloaded. Which I admit is easier while I'm in the middle of this. And yeah it bothers me (a bit) reading a critical post on what I'm doing. But maybe I'm reading TONE in an email which might be my imagination? I'm not saying to anyone "This is the right way and other ways are bad or that the people who make them are dumb or evil or whatever" 

I've said several times that some of the words of wisdom here were right on for us. Its just that some of it (I think) would not work for us. Part of how I've made my decisions has been by talking to a therapist. Which is one of the things I suggest. I also suggest talking to your doctor about this and depression. In short - Bring in the professionals. Which I think someone posted they disagreed. Or was that someone elses thread? It doesn't matter... I disagree with that and I while I think I'm right? I understand there might be complicated reasons someone does not want to go to a doctor or they have some stigma about shrinks and pills for depression. Its ok with me! I honestly feel bad for everyone here. As to how you lead your life? I think its your biz. While your still (hopefully) chilling out - do we agree on anything? 

OK the 2 minutes are probably up so Flame On Johnny Storm. 

OR

If you can stay chilly for a couple more minutes Read my last two replies in this thread. Take out the tone. *I know there is serious tone in my reply because I strongly object to having any internet group of people become my peers or my jury without my say so. I also get uptight when someone hands out opinions without reading the material. Or at least comments on things I didn't say. If this was happening to you I doubt you would like it either. You wanted to jump into this thread - now your here. What do you say? Can we both be civil and a bit more understanding of what the other person is going through? As for me its way late and I'm going to bed.


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## AngryandUsed (Jun 23, 2011)

Can you read AlmostRecovered story? That is a case of R.


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## X-unknown (Oct 14, 2011)

TRy said:


> I did not say that we were your jury. I said that we were your peers. I used the example not to say that this is a trial and we are a jury, but to point out that there is a useful roll for non-professional peers even in our court system. I said this in response to your comment about us not being trained MCs and was pointing out that we do not need to be trained MC and IC professionals to have a useful roll as your peers. I said that as peers we are nothing more than a reality check.
> 
> I do not know why you are looking to find the most negative possible interpretation of what I and others have said to you in an effort to help, but you are in a difficult time so I will give you a pass and again wish you the best.


Umm.. Ok. Your totally right this is not the best time for me and in my previous message I admit its a hell of a lot easier to get me upright. 

Lets clear this up because I think your an ok guy and I even think Bandit45 is probably a good egg. *Even if he annoys me. 

You were talking about Jury and Peers. So ok I admit you were not saying we are your peers thus we are your Jury. Remember that this was posted in reply to my message where I said I was feeling "judged?" well maybe I'm angry and goofy but I really don't think its unreasonable to connect what you said about peers and jurys. Jurys convict and judges hand down the sentence. Frankly thats really how I''ve felt on this forum.

So - forget all that. Texts and Emails can be such a pain because without the voice, eye contact we (me too) can get messages and analogys really mixed up.

If you can stand any more of my babble please read my previous post. Or in the big picture its simply this. I choose who to select as my "peers" if we use it as you intended. Or in other words I choose what advice I take and who I get it from. I'm not on board with the list of what happens what you do plan. Oh hell thats wrong. I don't care if you or anyone else writes up a "HOW TO" on surviving infidelity. I'm just surprised at the reaction when someone doesn't follow it. Or maybe its just thinking your getting critical comments about what your doing. 

I've talked by PM to a couple of the men who have R and they have all given me some good food for thought. I admit I'm not that interested in the tough guy approach (*Prev message on all this) "Maybe" thats where we get to a selection of peers. I choose the resolvers to get my examples from (peers if we use your terms) I choose the trained experts as my ubber peers. I don't agree to do everything either. Its still my life & my decision. 

Anyway I appreciate the understanding. Thats the plus in visiting a forum. Some support, shared experience etc. Ok one more try at sleep!


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

I think the reason people keep advising more investigation is that they don't think you know if the affair has gone physical. For many, they may be able to deal with an EA for example but not a PA. Other people might be able to handle a one night stand but not an EA, even a long term affair that is not a love story etc.

In other words they think you are rugsweeping.


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

I'm not one of those 'hurt and angry people', I guess, since I haven't experienced infidelity in my marriage. Most people just assume that you will accept the replies that help, and avoid those that don't. They really don't offer them as judge, juror, peer, or non-paid consultant. 

It seems as if there is some confusion about the role of a marriage counselor when you indicate that some replies do not mesh with the therapist's advice. Based on what almost every marriage counselor has told my wife and me, their job is to bring the two of you closer into a more harmonious marriage. Since many do not believe that there is any value in exploring specific details of an affair, at least when it comes to reconciliation, this will not be on their radar. The best they will do is seek to find the place where you are willing to let it go, and then proceed from there. Seems out of place to compare their opinion to the opinion of a person who thought that you were interested in learning the facts.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

chapparal said:


> I think the reason people keep advising more investigation is that they don't think you know if the affair has gone physical. For many, they may be able to deal with an EA for example but not a PA. Other people might be able to handle a one night stand but not an EA, even a long term affair that is not a love story etc.
> 
> In other words they think you are rugsweeping.


 The OP is rug sweeping and believes that rug sweeping is the correct course of action. Below is a post by the OP which explains why he would want to rug sweep.


X-unknown said:


> Truth be told I'm kind of freaked out about finding out. Right now I've gotten to the point that I'm handling the EA (Assuming its over) but I think adding in sex makes this into a much more difficult issue. I think we could still move forward but I'm a little worried that I it might make me explode.


@OP: Rug sweeping prevents most people from being able to heal and truly move forward on reconciliation. It also often allows the affair to continue underground at a reduced or more dormant level. Additionally, rug sweeping lets them know that their will be reduced consequences for their cheating and thus encourages them to cheat again.

Of course you and your wife are a unique situation so none of what I just said about rug sweeping may apply to you. I think that it does apply, but you are the only vote that counts. Here is hoping that I am wrong. You are in a bad place that is not of your making and rug sweeping is so tempting as you just want this mess to be over so that you can go back to the life that you had before.


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## Kallan Pavithran (Jan 17, 2012)

Actually i dont know why we are wasting our time on this. He came here for some help, we gave them what we learned from our experience, he dont want anything from ok its his decision.
then why we should drag it long. he know what to do or not to do then why our help?


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## StrangerThanFiction (Jul 19, 2011)

Your wife might have had a physical affair. She might not have. You don’t really know one way or the other. Some people can put those doubts out of their mind. Some people can’t. As you admit, she might still be in contact with him. You don’t really know as she could have bought a burner phone or be chatting from work.

Several suggestions were offered (VAR and Keylogger) that have helped confirm whether contact is still taking place in many other instances. No one really cares if you accept the advice as coming from “peers“ or not. No one disputes that you can take or ignore any advice as you see fit. At the end of the day 90% of these stories all read the same and the same advice is applicable to most. The pitfalls for ignoring advice are often the same. Everyone thinks they’re the unique snowflake with misunderstood or extenuating circumstances.

The point is, you decided that you didn’t need/want to know any more details and were ready to move on. She admitted to an EA so it wouldn’t change the picture for you if she had slept with him, you imply. Whether that’s your honest feeling or the fear of harsh reality is unclear. Only you know whether you can truly move forward and reconcile without constant nagging doubts about what truly happened or the extent that contact is still taking place.


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## river rat (Jan 20, 2012)

X, you wanted to hear from someone in R, well here I am; as are many of us. We still participate in this forum because recovery is hard. There are still wounds that will never heal. But like w/ any physical injury, you learn to deal w/ them. You may limp, but you don't have to be a cripple. The biggest injury is the ability to trust. You have to learn that the one you must trust first is yourself. Trust in others is always conditional. Like you, I did not need all the gory details. I had enough evidence to make my decisions and proceeded accordingly. I was on the way out the door when she stopped me. I did not get the keylogger and VAR, at first. However, there have been times over the years when the old insecurities surfaced. Years after the affair I did get a keylogger and VAR and used them for a short period of time, just to reassure myself. I found nothing and felt like crap for doing it, but it was something I had to do at the time, so no regrets. I wish you well w/ your R. It's a long road, w/ more than a few bumps. I believe it was worth it.


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## X-unknown (Oct 14, 2011)

I can't believe its been a year since that last post. Anyway, I was asked to post an update. So here it goes.

I saw a doctor about depression etc and got on some meds to make it possible for me to make rational decisions and actions.

I've learned how far the affair really went.

I've read more books.

I'm a regular at attended a group meeting (BAN Smart Marriages) and quizzed people who have reconciled. I've learned that Divorce is easy. Reconciling is hard! We've listened to lots of Podcasts from people who reconciled and told how they did it.

We continue to do couples therapy. I think very highly of the person who has worked with us, how it went and I think its going to be a success.

We both (now) are doing individual therapy. And its not about wanting to kill myself or kill the other man. I think its helped a lot.

This affair is easily the worst thing thats ever happened to me. Betrayal from the one most important to you is just... The worst. Because this is the most important person to me I decided it was worth trying even tho its hard.

Here is where I am. I ask myself "Is this better then it was? Is it going that way more then going bad? The answer is yes its better and it keeps getting better. So we keep slogging through this step after step. 

I stand by my comments about professional help and taking care of yourself (If your dealing with clinical depression or Anxiety) I strongly disagree with the one plan or scenario fits all. I think details of what happened in your cases are invaluable to others who have never had this happen to them. I think making suggestions are fine. I still think anyone demeaning others for not following "the" plan should get a degree to do couples therapy first.

I hope you are all doing well and are finding some peace of mind.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Did you find out if the affair was physical? What has happend to OM?

Do you think your wife is happy now?


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## X-unknown (Oct 14, 2011)

Q: Did you find out if the affair was physical? 
A: Yes. 

Q:What has happend to OM?
A: In what way? She sent him a no contact email and she says (And I've verified) that there is no contact. I saw him at a social function and he immediately left. 

Qo you think your wife is happy now?
A: She is remorseful. She tells me that she is angry with the other man because of how he seduced her. She is happy because we didn't split up.

In a general way - happy? Therapy / meds all that... Yes I think so. Its been very difficult getting here. My take on this is that we had (have) a nearly unlimited number of ways to split up. We could decide this or that was too much or that we can't stand ______ anymore and so on. The difficult path is deciding to work on staying together. Its a lot of work.


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## theroad (Feb 20, 2012)

X-unknown said:


> Q: Did you find out if the affair was physical?
> A: Yes.


I started reading this post for the first time today at it screamed PA. After reading the first page I jumped to the last post. Unfortunately I was not surprised what I read.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

I give you credit for staying X.

From your posts it was clear how badly her cheating was hurting you both mentally and physically.

Many of us on TAM are pro marriage/ pro reconciliation if the cheater is remorseful and willing to do the hard work.

But it takes two strong spouses for a succesful reconciliation.

And it takes years.

I wish you success, not luck. And I hope your wife proves to love you just as much as you love her.

Because from the efforts you have shown her, she has some catching up to do to.....

Peace

HM64


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

X-unknown said:


> A: She is remorseful. *She tells me that she is angry with the other man because of how he seduced her.* She is happy because we didn't split up.


I admit I'm only focusing in the "bad". And this is bad. It's avoiding responsability, blameshifting or blamesharing which at the end is the same. Nobody can trick, seduce you. She let him, she enjoyed it, she ignored the basic boundaires, she lied, she decived, she got busted, she deflects the blame. The marriage is not to blame, you are not to blame, OM is not to blame, the blue moon or the global warming are not to blame. 
I bet it's better hating and blaming such a "predator" rather than pinning about him BUT she's not owning her stuff. If she doesn't she's not really remorseful, she can't reject her actions (remorse fold 1) if there's someone else to blame. She can't dig within to find out how the hell she gave her self the OK to behave this way if she doesn't own her stuff therefore making the very needed internal changes which would be behind the most external changes (boundaires) to avoid it in the future. 

She still need to work harder in herself.


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## snap (Oct 3, 2011)

The old "devil made me do it".


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## Thinkitthrough (Sep 5, 2012)

X I am starting to think I see what is an important point in your position that can get forgotten, and it like medication for learning disabilities. Not all drugs work the same on all patients, some work 70% of the time some 50% and some work best in combination. You never know what will work until you try things out. Each of us sees that something needs to be done and each of us knows somethings that work and some that don't, but the only way to find out is to use what you think will work for you. Yes its a gamble, and lots of times you don't get what you want or expect. I guess doing something is better than nothing, and thats the gist of it, do something, You did and with luck and love and effort it will work, All the best.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

making a big mistake


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

X-unknown said:


> We've been married more then 20 years and she hasn't been known to lie to me before so this IS really hard to accept.


quoted for truth


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## keko (Mar 21, 2012)

X-unknown said:


> She is remorseful. She tells me that she is angry with the other man because of how he seduced her. * She is happy because we didn't split up*.


:scratchhead:

:sleeping:


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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

keko said:


> :scratchhead:
> 
> :sleeping:


:iagree:

Quite clearly she's playing you like a marionette. I wouldn't be surprised if further revelations in therapy involved a detailed study of each other's anatomy. She's throwing you a bone by having extreme amounts of sex, allaying your fears. Don't fall for the old trick.


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## X-unknown (Oct 14, 2011)

theroad said:


> I started reading this post for the first time today at it screamed PA. After reading the first page I jumped to the last post. Unfortunately I was not surprised what I read.


Hi again everyone. re my sticking to posting this. I have to admit I was prompted. It's certainly been interesting. I do want to say that this forum is not at all like couples therapy, the books I've read or the other blogs, forums I've read. 

I know that there is a great deal of focus on what sort of affair we are talking about. In particular sexual affairs being the "worst" but as I think I've said from the start its not a matter of degree with me. I don't remember the quote but its about lusting in the heart is the same as lusting in the more physical areas. Betrayal is "betrayal" 

I've gone to a lot of BAN meetings (Highly recommended) and there (to me) seem to be two types of people. Those that have or will divorce and a smaller group that "might" reconcile. There are an almost unlimited number of ways to split up. Staying together is really difficult, complicated and takes a long time.

The folks who are divorced (or will be) can't imagine not breaking up and when they are on the internet - it seems they are willing to degrade and demean those that are not following their master plan. I'm sure that will rise the hackles again but seriously - are you really sure you know whats going to happen in my (or anyone elses) experience? And how is it that people who are educated and do couples therapy for a living know less then people on the internet?


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

X-unknown said:


> Hi again everyone. re my sticking to posting this. I have to admit I was prompted. It's certainly been interesting. I do want to say that this forum is not at all like couples therapy, the books I've read or the other blogs, forums I've read.
> 
> I know that there is a great deal of focus on what sort of affair we are talking about. In particular sexual affairs being the "worst" but as I think I've said from the start its not a matter of degree with me. I don't remember the quote but its about lusting in the heart is the same as lusting in the more physical areas. Betrayal is "betrayal"
> 
> ...


X

R takes a lot of work. If you and your wife are committed to R, focused on each other and love each other then there is no reason not to try to R.

Some WS and/BS feel the need to Divorce. They feel the marriage is broken and they no longer have any desire to be with their spouse.

And then we see certain couples that come back after being Divorced.both spouses have grown and realize they should have stuck it out for a Reconciliation.

There are so many twists and turns but if the wayward is truly remorseful then a second consideration of the marriage should e done.

But even with remorse the BS has to be able to trust the WS. Without trust there is no foundation for the marriage to sit on.

I think you made the right choice.

After 20 years and this experience you probably know what your wife is capable of.

I always think that if a WS has the Gall to cheat, then they also have the strength to Reconcile.

The key is that they want to do the right thing for themselves.

I will probably be crucified for some of these comments but I also hope you will give us updates from time to time.

Peace
hM64


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## X-unknown (Oct 14, 2011)

Hopefully you won't be pilloried for saying a few kind words! 

Its only me, but the remorse part has been a huge part in my decision. When tears can float a boat and you've heard "I'm Sorry" everyday for months along with a long list of how awful they are... Well it makes a difference. The trust part is (Again this is just me) the most difficult part. Her being as transparent as she can be (No secret passwords on anything) and so forth are another piece. 

The willingness to take responsibility for the affair helps (me). I've read quite a few books that say affairs don't happen in a vaccum and the betrayed spouse should look inside to see what part they played in it. That part is very difficult for me. I guess the obvious part is that it sounds like I'm supposed to accept some blame for the affair. And while I know the authors of these things don't say that it still makes my hairs stand up. There is a book that has been really difficult to read called "When good people have affairs" as it talks about some rationalizations for having affairs. One thing that helped me was this comment. "No one sits down and wonders what kind of affair would hurt their spouse the most. Its not thinking about the spouse or how this would hurt them that is the problem."

In the same context I've tried to understand when it became a "them" versus "us" and this repeat thought has almost made me a basket case. Long term affairs make it more difficult to understand when things happened and what was going on. Speaking of which - one of the people at a BAN meeting told us their spouse had a one night stand and for a short (very short) time I thought "How Lucky you are!" Like thats in anyway better then anyone else's affair? Soooooo dumb. It might be less complicated but are you "betrayed less?" Of course not.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

How did you find out the extent of the affair? How long did it take ? How did that affect you? If you could, what would you do differently? Is BAN a national thing?


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

X-unknown said:


> Hopefully you won't be pilloried for saying a few kind words!
> 
> Its only me, but the remorse part has been a huge part in my decision. When tears can float a boat and you've heard "I'm Sorry" everyday for months along with a long list of how awful they are... Well it makes a difference. The trust part is (Again this is just me) the most difficult part. Her being as transparent as she can be (No secret passwords on anything) and so forth are another piece.
> 
> ...


Very true.

And you can take responsibility for the demise of the marriage. I am sure you both can share or take part of the responsibility.

But you did not decide to cheat. That your wife has to own, accept responsibility and make the effort to understand why she chose so poorly.

She needs to do that in order to heal and ensure she will not make the same mistake.'

Then you both can start fixing what is broken.


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## X-unknown (Oct 14, 2011)

X-unknown said:


> I can't believe its been a year since that last post. Anyway, I was asked to post an update. So here it goes.
> 
> I saw a doctor about depression etc and got on some meds to make it possible for me to make rational decisions and actions.
> 
> ...


Just a note that I didn't put this link in for "Smart Marriages." Google (or duckduckgo) Beyond Affair Network or BAN dear Peggy. I don't appreciate someone adding this. If you want to promote Smart Marriages put it in your own posts NOT MINE. Ok?


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