# Strange - is XW hurting current wife?**Caution Epicly long**



## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

Well, some of you may have seen me spouting off in a few of the other threads. Thought I'd introduce myself here so we can all feel tight knowing that I've gone through some tough myself. I also feel that a lot of what has happened in my past continues to haunt me not only in my emotional/mental stability now, but also in damaging the relationship with my current wife (of a decade this year).

My first wife was someone that I have known basically since I can remember. I “met” her in 2nd grade. I dated her in 4th grade (yes, I recognize the complete lack of anything real there). And we got together at the beginning of my sophomore year in high school. There were many ways that we were compatible and many ways that we were not. I never thought she was all that good looking, but then again I don’t think I am either. We did seem to gel in demeanor and entertainment. The relationship throughout high school was fairly stable until the senior year. Then “things” started happening. And I did the opposite of what I know I should have done: I told myself that a “good” boyfriend/ husband/ significant other trusts, and that without that trust there isn’t a relationship anyway. There was the “just a kiss” with my at the time best friend (thanks buddy – won’t ever forget that), coupled with the complete disintegration of all the relationships with “friends” who watched those two get close after my “buddy” announced he wanted to sleep with my then-fiance. There was a mutual friend who came around just a bit too much, mostly of course when I wasn’t around. There was the pot smoking, and the partying. Yes, I was a moron. And I recognize this was highschool. But still a moron.

After highschool, I tried the college thing and turned out I was way messed up in my priorities (and I hated my college/path/professor(s)), and while there I got into online gaming (yes, I realize how nerdy this sounds). In <1 month, I had another character emailing me/chatting with me that said what would have been inappropriate things, that I chatted right back with (not “sexual” per se – but still not things that I should have typed to anyone). The then-wife found the emails and confronted, and I realized how it sounded, cut off all contact, quit playing the games at all actually. (I would find out later that very day she went and had sex with someone at a bar – keep this in mind)

I ended up joining the military. In hindsight, this was EXACTLY what I needed to do to grow up a bit. Incidentally, around this same time we found out that she was pregnant with my first son. Throughout the pregnancy, she was very angry, constantly bringing up my “cheating” ways, and liked to refer to me as “little boy” when she would get particularly nasty. Things got a little better after my son was born, some of which might have to do with an event when he was really young where she pulled out in front of a mustang doing 60+ and got T-boned with the then very young son (impact was AT his door – but 100% ok). 

After 2 years in, I was doing really well, had purchased a home for us off-base, things were looking up. I can honestly remember that at the time thinking that all was pretty well. Then came the life lurch. 

My XW had been traumatically abused as a child. For a year. By a full grown man. While she was 8. Pretty much the worst things you can imagine between two such people happened. And then he got away with it (probation for a short period, nothing more). And, as crappy as our justice system is, he was FINALLY being brought to real justice. Unfortunately, it had taken no less than 9 victims (some under the age of 5) for them to get enough evidence to take this slimeball down. And of course, in order to get as much as possible, they wanted my XW to come testify. I will outright say that those in law enforcement, judiciary, and other jobs that have to see the dirty laundry of those kinds of scenarios, in my opinion, have to have the worst jobs of all. But enough about that.

I go and support her. It is obviously a highly emotional time. Once we get home, everything seems normal again. A month goes by, and I notice a slight uptick in the “kink” factor in the bedroom. Not that our bedroom activities were ever much more than vanilla, so this was just “hot talk” and a slight increase in frequency (maybe 1/wk average from 1.5 per 2 wk). One particular episode involves her messing around with a woman and me. I think little of the particulars and just enjoy the experience. Until the next morning.

I wake up to a dramatically different demeanor in her. She’s practically oozing emotional woman-garble. I have no idea why, and she’s never been like this before. I remember the night before’s topic about the same time she asks… “So what would you think about me really doing that? I’ve been thinking about the girl-girl thing for a while and think I want to experiment with it”.

As big of a moron as I have been… this set off the alarm bells hard and heavy. I calmly told her that she is an adult, that I’m not here to stand in her way, that I wasn’t sure what it would mean to our relationship, and that truthfully I wasn’t sure how exactly I felt about it (ok, so, still a moron). She clearly takes this as a positive sign, practically celebrating with her eyes. Which prompts another “ah-ha” moment. I say “You’ve already got someone in mind, don’t you?” She confirms, and I recall several conversations about “the new girl” at work. 

I try to take the issue to work. This is actually somewhat comical. Imagine if you will, young, troubled man looking for advice at work (from SAILORS) about a wife who wants to get with another woman. I don’t think you could wind up in a worse situation, from my perspective, than that. “Dude, that’s totally awesome” was NOT what I needed to hear at the time. It actually made it harder to just accept that what I was feeling was no way, no how, that’s sex with someone else and I can’t be ok with that. It took several weeks to get to that conclusion. It was somehow harder than if it was a guy. Had she said “I want to experiment with gangbangs” I think I would have come to a slightly quicker conclusion (but alas… I was a moron).

We talked. I took back the ring. I told her I wanted a divorce. Split things according to what we thought was “hers” and “his”. Bills divided same. I get majority custody. 30 days then she’s out of the house (couldn’t come close to affording it). She agrees. I had an amazingly easy time with it once I decided, head and heart, that she was gone and there wasn’t anything worth holding onto. 

Mistakes I made here:
·	Stayed in the marital bed
·	Continued having occasional sex (maybe even more)
·	Became her “friend” to “help her with what she was feeling”

I think, effectively, she had already begun a one-sided EA with her new work friend. And she actively recruited me (and I went along with it) as her freaking dating coach (yes, I’m a mor.. you get it by now I assume).

So I end up going out on several “group” outings. Dinner and drinks. Bowling. Skating. Then came the more personal dates. And yep… I was there too. Mostly serving as bartender (and complete rug) for billiards and games at our house, while the STBXW was shooting for the stated purpose of “getting her drunk so I can bang her”. This actually pissed me off – mostly because XW was a raging feminist concerning “players” and “users”… but I digress.

One thing I find myself having a problem with is the fact that the “new girl”, is utterly and amazingly GORGEOUS. One on hand, my STBXW is having her fling right in front of me (or working towards it – with my help); on the other, I’m going “Holy cow I guess if she was leaving for a woman, she SURE knows how to pick them”. I would rate my XW at a 6.5/10 physically - I was never much into her looks, or terribly excited about sex. We had a connection, and it “felt right”. This woman was a solid 10/10. I became even more of a withdrawn person than normal around her. I basically didn’t want to get in trouble for drooling/staring (by the “girl”, b/c who cares what the XW thinks at this point – seriously).

Then the fit hit the shan. During a late night, alcohol laden, truth-or-dare involved “date” at our house, the XW goes upstairs to use the restroom, and the now scantily clad other girl walks over to me and asks for a kiss. 

I obviously am lacking for any reason why not. Nothing besides some very piggish behavior by my STBXW has occurred, with many very obvious “not interested” signs from the girl. So I agree. 

The next month is a whirlwind. I find myself falling in love HARD and fast with the new girl. I’ll come back to that part of the story in a bit. Needless to say, the intentions of my STBXW are shattered, and she’s not too happy about it, but what’s she going to say? (she says it anyway)

With the XW, 30 days is fast approaching, and she is giving all indications she isn’t going anywhere (besides telling me). I start pushing the issue. “You’ve got X days left, you got a place yet?”. On the Friday before 0-day, I ask “Are you staying here tonight, or going to the new place?” This prompts a breakdown by her, in which she admits she hasn’t been looking for a new place, because she figured she could just stay in the house. I ask “What in the world are you thinking? Remember we’re getting a divorce?” She says she figured that she could just stay in the house, and then when I got transferred to my next post she would just keep the house. Keep in mind here, that she doesn’t make enough to pay anything towards the house, so this would necessitate me continuing to pay the mortgage while I’m elsewhere. I tell her that that was a wonderful fairly tale, but that the magic of divorce is that I don’t have to pay for her anymore. She leaves, stays with a friend for a few weeks and has an apartment soon.

It is during this last 30 days in the house that it becomes clear how much of a patsy I was. She had intended to fool around with women, and if it didn’t go well, just come right back to me. She clearly thought I would be down with that, and figured that my divorce threats were just words. I actually think it DID crush her that I managed to absolve my emotions (mostly), and had the resolve to stick to it (I would have done this regardless of what happened with new girl). She started trying to “win” me back in desperation. I made a terrible mistake, and succumbed once to sex, which she promptly went to new girl with and crushed her. (see former posts on my mental abilities)

Over the course of the next year or so, the new girl and I cement our relationship. She moves in, we start preparing the house for sale. The XW and I get to somewhere amicable with each other. In the growth of our new relationship, me and the new girl discuss past relationships, and I disclose that I’m at least satisfied in the ending of my marriage, because she had the decency to TELL me before anything happened, and give me the choice to end it. That may seem minor to some people, but it means the world to me in terms of respect. That’s when I find out the severity of the XW cheating. Pretty much every time I had ever suspected something, there had been some sort of inappropriate sexual relationship. All of those times I suppressed the “green monster”, told myself I was being controlling, made myself “trust” to be a good whatever, I was pulling the wool over my own eyes. Several times with males, and at least once with a female (that just happened to be the weekend before our wedding – bravo XW…bravo). In hindsight, I bet she wishes she had never told me, because this triggered a change that I have been fighting against for the past decade.

I’m anyone still reading what is sure to be a terrible novel will surmise at this point that “new girl” became my wife. And she now deals with the massive mental turnaround that my XW forced on me by her actions. I find myself struggling, both throughout the past decade, and to this day, with various feelings that I KNOW I wouldn’t have had before. The one thing that I always tell myself, looking back and hating that history, is that I wouldn’t have the life I have now, with my current wife, and my son, without that history.

So issues now. Our first several years together was HEAVEN. She was, and is, and I believe always will be in my eyes beautiful, funny, smart, and incredibly organized. I may be 1 of the 4, occasionally 2. I think I’m usually funny, and I have lots of people tell me I’m smart, but I have done (and continue to do) incredibly stupid things. 

Sex. 
As in most marriages, I presume. I like something that I’ve read here I believe. If the sex is good, it’s 10% of a marriage. If the sex is bad, it’s 90%. Unfortunately there’s another place you can be between good and bad, and I’m apparently there. 

For the first few years, sex was frequent, incredible, variable. I don’t think any man would be able to complain, in any way, about what I received. This did amazing things to inflate my ego, make me feel better than I ever had. She worked to convince me that I mistakenly married a 6.5, when I needed a 10 to be an equal. She maybe brought my mental image up to an 8. I know this is a terrible thing, both to put her above me physically in my mind (beta, or lower sex value per Atholk), and having a negative body image in general. The way I think of it though, I can’t magically believe that I look better – there just is no escaping the disparity between her outrageously good looks, and my – plainness? Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think I’m ugly. I just think I’m “average”. Nothing “wrong” with that – just nothing exceptional about it. 

This unbalance coupled with what my XW did causes me to question EVERYTHING physical between us. The usual “did she just sex me up in the beginning to hook me and then change?”, or “did she think I was hot then, and now she’s bored? All sorts of similar thoughts, I’m sure you’ve heard it all before. Although maybe not from the “a lesbian convinced me for 7 years she was straight – so WTF do I know? In the past 7 yrs or so, it has been a rollercoaster sexually. Sometimes hot and heavy, but usually, on the whole, we do it twice/week, with only rarely ever going more than a week. I know, I know, this is HARDLY a sexless marriage. Many would kill to get what I’m still getting. But the frequency is NOT what bothers me – once a week even really doesn’t bother me that much. It is the mental triggers that have gotten worse and worse over time. 

The first thing I can think of that triggered me was a previous boyfriend. We’ll call him Bob. Bob is everything that a man would want to be. Tall. Fit. Smart. Funny. My first terrible experience was her talking to him on the phone behind a closed door, and when I went into the room afterwards, already feeling negative, she was perusing pics on her computer that he had sent her of him bare-chested, showing of his abs. I confronted her on this, told her how terrible it made me feel. I stormed out of the house. After a little bit outside I came back in to the house, and went up to the room. She was in the room masturbating. She said that she was in the mood, and I clearly didn’t want any, so she had to take care of it herself. This about 6 months in, and before we got married. I don’t think I’ve ever lived that down. Not on a “forgive” aspect – but on a haunt my memory aspect. 

The next was several years later. I was attached to a submarine, so in and out of port all of the time, and even when in port I had to stand duty every 3rd day (so I couldn’t come home). This is when the sex life took a dramatic turn downward, and when I first became aware of frequent masturbation. I think I need to add in here that I DO NOT think that masturbating is wrong, sinful, or any of that garbage. I have masturbated plenty over the course of my life, both before and during my marriage. What I am not okay with, is feeling neglected sexually (to the point of feeling like I should be masturbating), only to find out the wife is masturbating any time I’m not home. I began to fear also that she was using it so much that our normal sex life wasn’t doing it for her (at one point, several months she didn’t get off with me, but plenty of masturbation and wouldn’t talk about making it better for her with me). Make no mistake, I fully understand that me just “banging away” isn’t going to get her off, and take efforts to ensure that she is pleasured as well. 

To make things worse, she would lie about it until I “proved it”, and then make efforts to cover it up next time (not unlike the WS in the stories take steps to go “underground”). Each time, throw away the “toy”, promise not to do it again (which WASn’t what I wanted). It began to feel like that was the sex life she wanted, and sex with me was her “duty”. For clarity, she has never spoken of sex directly as duty. She has, however implied it through discussion of the “consequences” if she doesn’t give it up regularly. For a long time, I felt that the only reason we had sex was she was afraid I would leave if she didn’t. I am not interested in pity sex, or duty sex, or any kind of sex that she isn’t actively engaged and enthusiastic about. So now I have explained, with excessive words I’m sure, where I’m at now.

I know, and she has stated, that she worries about getting off enough so that we don’t have a repeat of a fight where I brought that up. So more stress on her during sex. I have caught her masturbating when our sex life was on the down so many times that I have completely given up. That has been accompanied by a shift away from me being as physical as I used to be, which she has complained about (not as much “kino” – hands, shoulder rubs, fingers through hair, etc). She has “tried” so many times to “make herself” have sex more frequently that everything she does feels contrived and forced. Which leaves us in a sort of sexual/intimacy limbo. Neither bad nor good, with all of her effort seeming (whether it is true or not) like it is acting only with no real “feeling”. 

Relationship
I would personally have called our relationship good. Despite the sex issues. But after/during a recent fight, I checked her text messages to see she was telling a friend that she wanted to kick me out. Of my house. I started to detach emotionally after that, moreso than any other fight before. We have recovered some from that fight, and I would say things are going much better – but I again have that “acting” feeling on my mind. I worry that she is just biding her time now, making plans (did I mention she’s organized and likes to plan everything?). Her biggest “confiding” to me emotional moment in recent memory was over the fact that if we break up/divorce, she has no guarantee of the money to survive, is 1000’s of miles from family, etc. I honestly don’t want much of a life if I lose her. So I said if I do, you can have whatever. Because I just won’t give a sh#t anymore. 
I know that people fight, and they say and do things they don’t mean. I said some harsh stuff that fight. Which of course I heard about during the “reconciliation” afterwards (another frequent thing I deal with that I really don’t like – what a coworker calls “stamp collecting”) My problem is knowing what she really means, and what is just me going all crazy-head about. 
The other issue with the relationship is 8/10 things she talks about is how bad her life is. How much energy the kids suck out of her (we have 3 boys). How hard it is to run the household (cleaning, etc). How difficult it is to manage the farm by herself (we have 40 acres and just about every animal you can imagine). How I don’t “support her” despite me constantly asking what I can do. I get that one a lot, and it drives me nuts. I don’t do nights out. I don’t have any “friends” to speak of. Neither does she honestly. I feel I get up crazy early (before 5am these days), do 12 hours at work, come home and try to do more work around the house, have an hour or two of wind down then sleep for 5 hrs or so and repeat. But because she’s home all day, and therefore obviously gets more done, then I’m not doing my part. 
All I’ve ever wanted was to get her to be happy again. The more we go down the path of what “she wants”, the more unhappy she has seemed. The more unhappy, the more I try, etc. I know I’m not perfect, but I also know we’ve got a DAMN good life by al measurable standards – and she spends most of her time complaining about it and what I haven’t done. It’s terribly demotivating. One of the examples of this is poetry. I used to write her frequent poetry. That probably hasn’t been true for several years now. Maybe a few a year. Part of the issue is that when I try, and I get the creative juices flowing, my brain starts putting negative things in the lines instead of positives. Such as starting to write a line about her gorgeous green eyes ends up with images and words about her angry flashing eyes. Something about her wondrous body turns into how I’m not supposed to touch it or I’m a pervert. Something about how smart of funny she is brings up a memory of something she put me down over. You get the picture.

All of this has been complicated the last few months by my job. I am currently working 60-75 hours per week. I make very good money (in my opinion), and the excess overtime hours is about to stop – so I’m hoping some positive change will occur then, and maybe I’m overanalyzing/being crazy due to stress and crazy work hours. Who knows. I have gone to an IC a couple of times that I will be able to continue afterwards as well, although I’m not sure if the one I have will accomplish much for me. 

If you’ve made it to the end, congratulations, you’ve passed the CIA mental torture test and are now eligible for agent status if you can pass the physical portion. Seriously though, I know that must be a tremendously boring read – but if anyone has ideas how I can get passed my own dangerous thinking, I’d love to hear it. My wife deserves to be truly happy, and if I’m the one making her not happy, I’d like to rectify that problem. I know what went on with my XW has changed me, but I don’t want my current wife to suffer because of that.


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## carmen ohio (Sep 24, 2012)

ET1SSJonota said:


> Well, some of you may have seen me spouting off in a few of the other threads. Thought I'd introduce myself here so we can all feel tight knowing that I've gone through some tough myself. I also feel that a lot of what has happened in my past continues to haunt me not only in my emotional/mental stability now, but also in damaging the relationship with my current wife (of a decade this year).
> 
> My first wife was someone that I have known basically since I can remember. I “met” her in 2nd grade. I dated her in 4th grade (yes, I recognize the complete lack of anything real there). And we got together at the beginning of my sophomore year in high school. There were many ways that we were compatible and many ways that we were not. I never thought she was all that good looking, but then again I don’t think I am either. We did seem to gel in demeanor and entertainment. The relationship throughout high school was fairly stable until the senior year. Then “things” started happening. And I did the opposite of what I know I should have done: I told myself that a “good” boyfriend/ husband/ significant other trusts, and that without that trust there isn’t a relationship anyway. There was the “just a kiss” with my at the time best friend (thanks buddy – won’t ever forget that), coupled with the complete disintegration of all the relationships with “friends” who watched those two get close after my “buddy” announced he wanted to sleep with my then-fiance. There was a mutual friend who came around just a bit too much, mostly of course when I wasn’t around. There was the pot smoking, and the partying. Yes, I was a moron. And I recognize this was highschool. But still a moron.
> 
> ...


Who has time for this? If you want responses, make the effort to cut this down to a readable narrative instead of simply apologizing for posting your version of War and Peace.


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## missmim (Dec 29, 2012)

Whew, finished the post......are you or your wife in IC or MC?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DavidWYoung (Feb 3, 2012)

What is the question?


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Well, we all have baggage that we bring to our marriages. You seem to think that yours may be the cause of your W's discontent.

It seems to me, though, that so many of the issues you describe are just very typical strains on a marriage where both spouses are working hard, have young children to take care of, and are regularly exhausted. It's really important for both of you to try not to dig your heels in and build up resentments at this stage of the marriage. You both need to keep compassionate toward one another. It's hard, I know, but you have to try to get into one another's heads to see the frustrations and weariness. Books like 'His Needs/Her Needs' can help with the compassion element.

The one real outlier of an issue is the masturbation thing with your W. It's not that I find it really troublesome - some people just do this a lot - but how do you 'catch' her doing it? What happens when you do?


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

Hi.

I read your post. It was a long one, but this is a place for long posts. Life is complicated and it helps to tell your story in my experience.

I am just not sure about what advice it is that you seek. 

Your wife used to like lots of sex and now, she doesn't.

As far as I could discern, you met your current wife by cheating on your first wife.

Oh, I should also have mentioned that no one deserves anything. It reminds me of the 'highway code'. No one has a 'right of way' either.


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## lisab0105 (Oct 26, 2011)

carmen ohio said:


> Who has time for this? If you want responses, make the effort to cut this down to a readable narrative instead of simply apologizing for posting your version of War and Peace.


Who cares if it is long? He warned you, you had a choice to read or not. The snark is just not necessary.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

You mentioned Married Man Sex Life, did that help. Honestly, I am surprised you are still together.

You quit going out on date nights=you are not romancing her. That's death to any marriage, especially for a sahm.

You almost sound like you are undermining your marriage on purpose.

Why would your first wife being a tramp reflect on you. If she had robbed a bank would you feel guilty for that?


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## walkonmars (Aug 21, 2012)

Marriages have their ups and downs. *YOU* deem that she's having pity sex or duty sex. Ask her!! 

She masturbates - _so do you. _

She has her hands full with small kids and a passel of farm creatures - and you - to deal with.

Ok, the way you met was not one of the traditional boy/girl dates. So what? I think you're letting that cloud your vision. And I think the XW is more in your head than you'd like to think. 

If, after thinking about this for a while it still bothers you, have a sit down with her (arrange to have the kids out with a sitter for a few hours) and go over your concerns. Don't be a moro... (well, you know), that is, don't threaten or act morosely. Ask her how she views her sex life and yours.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

I think you need to find a MC and a sex therapist for you both.


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## Suspecting (Jan 8, 2013)

I got the feeling from your post that you are actually feeling guilty about the fact, that you got your current wife by cheating/deceiving your XW with her. That is why you mentioned some meaningless stuff regarding your current situation, like your XW's behavior in highschool.

Or now that I think about it, it could be the other way around too, that your current wife is feeling guilty about the cheating. Since your XW was her friend before you met.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Suspecting said:


> I got the feeling from your post that you are actually feeling guilty about the fact, that you got your current wife by cheating/deceiving your XW with her. That is why you mentioned some meaningless stuff regarding your current situation, like your XW's behavior in highschool.


I did not interpret what he did as cheating, what am I missing?


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## Suspecting (Jan 8, 2013)

chapparal said:


> I did not interpret what he did as cheating, what am I missing?


Well, it's a long post to read again but, I think he was still married to his XW and living with her when he started a relationship with the current wife. He also mentioned his still then wife wanted to reconcile but he pursued the other woman. I believe he slept with another woman in between this also?

If you look at it from his current wife's point, she was invited to their place by his XW with the intention to seduce her. As I read it they were friends before his current wife decided to 'deceive' her friend and seduce her husband. Does this make sense?

At least that's what I got from it.


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## OrangeCrush (Sep 12, 2012)

pride comes before a fall. you got in a relationship to spite your ex and got off on the thought that you got revenge and 'stole her girlfriend'. then you got a big head from your new wife laying it on thick about how 'hot' and 'a 10' you are. you really thought it would work, when your whole relationship started because you met her _when she was dating your wife_?


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

carmen ohio said:


> Who has time for this? .


Did you note the title? Or just in the habit of ignoring warnings? Very helpful, BTW



missmim said:


> Whew, finished the post......are you or your wife in IC or MC?


We are both doing some IC. Not sure how helpful mine has been (hence my post)



DavidWYoung said:


> What is the question?


What can I do to stop placing my XW values on my current wife. A decade later and I still fear having the same thing done to me again, beyond rationality.



alte Dame said:


> … just very typical strains on a marriage where both spouses are working hard, have young children to take care of, and are regularly exhausted... Books like 'His Needs/Her Needs' can help with the compassion element.
> The one real outlier of an issue is the masturbation thing with your W. how do you 'catch' her doing it? What happens when you do?


The very first time was walking in on her. Since then, whenever I feel she’s being distant in the intimacy, I would start checking history. Details relatively unimportant, but eventually each time she would “sort of” admit. 
When I would, each time a denial at first, then slowly work around to admission. Throw away toys, promise not to do it again (even though that’s not what I asked for or wanted). Work hard on the intimacy for a few days. Angry at me for “spying”. Say that I’m all about sex. Tell me I’m not normal. 



Chris989 said:


> Hi.
> I am just not sure about what advice it is that you seek.
> As far as I could discern, you met your current wife by cheating on your first wife.
> Oh, I should also have mentioned that no one deserves anything. It reminds me of the 'highway code'. No one has a 'right of way' either.


Looking for how to let go of my old grudges about “how people are”, and stop waiting/expecting my wife to leave or turn out to be some ugly person inside that I never saw coming. 
I did not cheat on my first wife – I found out after separating from my XW that she had cheated on me multiple times, and was bisexual from the start but I never had a clue (always acted extremely grossed out by it). 



chapparal said:


> You mentioned Married Man Sex Life, did that help. Honestly, I am surprised you are still together.
> You quit going out on date nights=you are not romancing her. That's death to any marriage, especially for a sahm.
> You almost sound like you are undermining your marriage on purpose.
> Why would your first wife being a tramp reflect on you. If she had robbed a bank would you feel guilty for that?


I did read MMSL, and NMMG. They helped briefly. I think I should reread actually. We do have date nights, not as often as I’d like, and I agree she needs more of them. I’m somewhat at a loss for good things to do: a serious creativity failure there that I need to work on. The bold/italics – I feel like I am undermining it, but it is NOT on purpose! That’s my fear, that my XW burning me screwed up my ability to trust. And that constant projection is hurting my current wife. 
To be clear: I don’t think the XW reflects on me. It reflects on a) my ability to perceive others and b) how nasty others can be.



walkonmars said:


> And I think the XW is more in your head than you'd like to think...Don't be a moro... (well, you know), that is, don't threaten or act morosely. Ask her how she views her sex life and yours.


…exactly my point. I know I’m being stupid in a lot of ways. But it seems the “rational” part of me is not what gets to make the decisions all of the time. We’ve had numerous sex talks, and it is gotten to the point I don’t want to talk because it always turns into her accusing me of demanding more (which is not what I say or want). 



Suspecting said:


> I got the feeling from your post that you are actually feeling guilty about the fact, that you got your current wife by cheating/deceiving your XW with her. Or now that I think about it, it could be the other way around too, that your current wife is feeling guilty about the cheating. Since your XW was her friend before you met.
> I believe he slept with another woman in between this also?


I have ZERO guilt about how we got together, and honestly the XW didn’t seem to care about how we got together, she was “shocked” (out of a fog??) about what she really was going to lose. 
There were no other women. And me and the current wife did not sleep together for several months (long after divorce proceedings were underway, separation was 6 months old at least, and XW had been out of house for a few months)
I hadn’t ever considered the other way around. Although I do know my wife absolutely loathes my XW. 



OrangeCrush said:


> you got in a relationship to spite your ex and got off on the thought that you got revenge and 'stole her girlfriend'. then you got a big head from your new wife laying it on thick about how 'hot' and 'a 10' you are. you really thought it would work, when your whole relationship started because you met her _when she was dating your wife_?


I’m not sure how this is supposed to be any kind of constructive, but I’ll bite. I did not get in the relationship to spite my ex. I did nothing to encourage it before the kiss, and while I may have daydreamed about her, I figured there was 0 chance a guy like me could be with someone like her (I still pretty much feel like this). 
And, for the record, it has worked for nearing a decade (longer than plenty of marriages that met "traditionally"), and I’m trying to work on my issues, and our issues, in order to make it many many more. She was not “dating” my XW – my XW was trying to get in her pants, and was hanging around with her a lot. There’s a difference.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

I think you have worn her out mentally. For whatever reason, you are trying to distance yourself from the marriage because you do not feel good enough to be with your wife. You refuse t accept the fact that shd loved you. 

Get back to MMSLP and fake it till you make it. Your wife can take only so much.

Can't figure out to do on a date? Please. Now you are not even good enough to take her out? Or lazy? A date doesn't have to be earth shattering everytime, its about showing affection and wanting to be with someone and zvoiding unpleasant thoughts and arguements.

Maybe you need to google how to date/romance someone.

You need help. If you are not getting anything out of IC get a new one.


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

chapparal said:


> I think you have worn her out mentally. For whatever reason, you are trying to distance yourself from the marriage because you do not feel good enough to be with your wife. You refuse t accept the fact that shd loved you.
> Get back to MMSLP and fake it till you make it. Your wife can take only so much.
> Can't figure out to do on a date? Please. Now you are not even good enough to take her out? Or lazy? A date doesn't have to be earth shattering everytime, its about showing affection and wanting to be with someone and zvoiding unpleasant thoughts and arguements.
> Maybe you need to google how to date/romance someone.
> You need help. If you are not getting anything out of IC get a new one.


Fake it til you make it huh? I like that. 
And thanks for calling me out on the date thing. I suppose a better way to say it is the "normal" date stuff seems to bore her so much. The better times have been planned out long nights.


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

Hey, you seem to have had a bit of a hard time. I admit to not being able to fully understand what had happened to you. Most posts follow a pattern - "my wife/husband is cheating I am being nice why isn't it working?" - so when someone comes along with a different kind of problem I think "we" end up trying to fit it into one of the "normal" boxes.

Just to be clear on this - although I think I know the answer - have either you or your current wife been unfaithful in your current marriage?

I think the answer is "no" and that it is the previous infidelity that is causing you a problem in your current marriage.

If that *is* the case then I wonder if you should change your counsellor in the first instance. Goodness knows there are plenty of horror stories around about bad counsellors so there must equally be a bunch that are just "ok" and you sound like you need a darn good one (I don't mean that with any disrespect, just that your issue sounds complicated).

Please, keep posting and sorry you had a hard time in some of the replies.


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

Chris989 said:


> Hey, you seem to have had a bit of a hard time.
> Just to be clear on this - although I think I know the answer - have either you or your current wife been unfaithful in your current marriage?
> I think the answer is "no" and that it is the previous infidelity that is causing you a problem in your current marriage.
> Please, keep posting and sorry you had a hard time in some of the replies.


No worries on the hard time. Sometimes I need that - other times its hard to see why someone bothered to post, but that is the extent of my angst.
I do not believe there has been any unfaithfulness in my current marriage. The ex-boyfriend makes me feel very insecure, but he hasn't even contacted since 2008 or so. 
The underlined statement captures it fairly well. I know I have some sort of issue because of how wildly I swing. On some days, I feel on top of the world, life couldn't be better, I have the best wife ever. Others, I feel like its all a lie, she's just there for comfort/security, and I'm just being played by everyone around me. It is hard to know in those times what's real and what's in my head.


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

All I can say is that, quite often - as these boards stand witness to - a "bad feeling" is there for a reason.

But, I get the feeling that you might need joint counselling. The answers perhaps lie somewhere between the two of you and maybe no amount of IC will "solve" your problem.

Have you thought about showing your wife this thread? It might give an insight that she isn't aware of.


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

I imagine that she will see it. I have mixed feelings on that - I don't want to rehash things, I want to move forward and recognize a lot, and perhaps most or all of that is my issue to deal with.


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## Suspecting (Jan 8, 2013)

ET1SSJonota said:


> I have ZERO guilt about how we got together, and honestly the XW didn’t seem to care about how we got together, she was “shocked” (out of a fog??) about what she really was going to lose.
> There were no other women. And me and the current wife did not sleep together for several months (long after divorce proceedings were underway, separation was 6 months old at least, and XW had been out of house for a few months)
> I hadn’t ever considered the other way around. Although I do know my wife absolutely loathes my XW.


This contradicts with your original post though, where you mention two times that this CRUSHED your wife and that she tried to 'win you back'. This does sound like you are blameshifting. You did kiss the OW (your CW) while your wife was in the bathroom. You also mentioned falling in love with your CW while still married to your XW. So you had EA and PA going on while still married and living together.

I think you need to ask your CW why does she say she loathes your XW? Guilt can make people do silly things. Your CW and XW were friends. If I understood your original post right, your CW started seeing your XW with the intention to have sexual relations with her but instead ended up seducing her husband. Is this correct? Now if I had gotten my wife by seducing her from my friend who were still married, I would surely feel guilty about it for the rest of my life probably. But that's just because I have a conscience.


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

Suspecting said:


> This contradicts with your original post though, where you mention two times that this CRUSHED your wife and that she tried to 'win you back'. This does sound like you are blameshifting. You did kiss the OW (your CW) while your wife was in the bathroom. You also mentioned falling in love with your CW while still married to your XW. So you had EA and PA going on while still married and living together.
> 
> I think you need to ask your CW why does she say she loathes your XW? Guilt can make people do silly things. Your CW and XW were friends. If I understood your original post right, your CW started seeing your XW with the intention to have sexual relations with her but instead ended up seducing her husband. Is this correct? Now if I had gotten my wife by seducing her from my friend who were still married, I would surely feel guilty about it for the rest of my life probably. But that's just because I have a conscience.


Just because she was crushed when she realized the finality of what she had done, doesn't mean I feel any guilt. We had already discussed how the divorce was going to go down details included, she was actively seeking to have sex with someone outside of our marriage, rings were exchanged back. It was settled where it was going. "All over but the paperwork" as the saying goes - and I've never been overly concerned with the paperwork. Some see it as until the judge says its over - I do NOT. It was over.

She loathes my XW because to this day, due to my son, we have to deal with her regularly, and for the first 6 years we dealt with her actively trying to "get me back" for "screwing her" in the divorce. Mostly over a brand new car I cosigned on before we divorced, that she intentionally missed payments on to ruin my credit, as well as getting my license suspended (weird SC rules), and a host of other vindictive things she has done. 

My understanding of what their relationship was, from both of them individually, is that she (current wife)had no definitive interest but wanted to hang out. No acceptance of the sexual side of the equation implied or spoken. From discussing with my current wife her viewpoint on things, she has said she felt that my XW had thrown me away, thought I was great, and told herself that if the XW doesn't want me, then she sure does.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

First off, I think generally you have to come to some peace with the idea that you are married to someone you love and who has said she loves you and just start taking it day by day doing the best you can with all of the stresses that marriage/work/kids bring. Focus on the good things right in front of you, not the bad things in the rear view mirror. 

Train yourself to forward focus. Every day, take a good, hard look at your W and kids and let yourself feel the love you have for your family and try to let that ground you for the day. You sound very much like you need some emotional security & you can get help from an IC with that, but there's a lot you can do with your own thinking just by forcing yourself onto certain thought paths.

Second, just two related but different thoughts/questions:

- It seems to me that you are insecure not primarily because of the messed up way your ex treated you, but because you consider your W so far above you in the looks/attractiveness department. If internally you're waiting for her to figure this out and leave you, you might be essentially pushing her out the door by sabotaging things and putting you out of the misery you feel as you wait for the axe to fall.

- Related to the masturbation thing - has she been reading the ever-present soft-porn romance novels that are causing so much grief in people's marriages these days?


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Folks, I don't see that he cheated on his XW at all.

The XW was a serial cheater who tried to get him to agree to her stepping out and having herself a nice on sided open marriage.

In fact the XW event tried to have him help her snag the current wife into a lesbian relationship.

It turned out he was smart enough to not accept his ex wife's wanting a hall pass to cheat,, and he began the divorce process. The ex stayed living in his house while she went off hunting for partners.

The ex frankly sounds like a really messed up person who's living a very unhealthy lifestyle with numerous overlapping partners. She's a serial cheater to boot. 

Thing is he didn't cheat in his Ex, but he did hook up with one of people his Ex had set her sights on.


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> First off, I think generally you have to come to some peace with the idea that you are married to someone you love and who has said she loves you and just start taking it day by day doing the best you can with all of the stresses that marriage/work/kids bring. Focus on the good things right in front of you, not the bad things in the rear view mirror.
> - Related to the masturbation thing - has she been reading the ever-present soft-porn romance novels that are causing so much grief in people's marriages these days?


Good stuff in the first paragraph. I know that I have changed in many ways since we got together, not the least of which was going from being a happy-go-lucky carefree fun loving type to having a good bit more negativity. One of the other recent changes I noticed was her commenting on my being down/negative/grumpy – something I’ve never considered myself.

To the question – the soft-porn novels aren’t an issue I don’t think: she tends to hate what I call the “lust in the dust” novels. She likes contemporary “real” settings in the books she reads (although plenty of them have steamy scenes also). She did read all 3 50 shades books (and it was a great month as those things go lol). As I said, I don’t have a problem with the thought of it – it is when that becomes her sex life and ours seems ignored/a chore. I will also admit, I feel inadequate next to “devices”. Yes, I recognize this is MY problem.



Shaggy said:


> Folks, I don't see that he cheated on his XW at all.
> The XW was a serial cheater who tried to get him to agree to her stepping out and having herself a nice on sided open marriage.
> In fact the XW event tried to have him help her snag the current wife into a lesbian relationship.
> It turned out he was smart enough to not accept his ex wife's wanting a hall pass to cheat,, and he began the divorce process. The ex stayed living in his house while she went off hunting for partners.
> ...


This is basically how I see it, thanks Shaggy.


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## Suspecting (Jan 8, 2013)

ET1SSJonota said:


> Just because she was crushed when she realized the finality of what she had done, doesn't mean I feel any guilt. We had already discussed how the divorce was going to go down details included, she was actively seeking to have sex with someone outside of our marriage, rings were exchanged back. It was settled where it was going. "All over but the paperwork" as the saying goes - and I've never been overly concerned with the paperwork. Some see it as until the judge says its over - I do NOT. It was over.
> 
> She loathes my XW because to this day, due to my son, we have to deal with her regularly, and for *the first 6 years we dealt with her actively trying to "get me back"* for "screwing her" in the divorce. Mostly over a brand new car I cosigned on before we divorced, that she intentionally missed payments on to ruin my credit, as well as getting my license suspended (weird SC rules), and a host of other vindictive things she has done.
> 
> My understanding of what their relationship was, from both of them individually, is that she (current wife)had no definitive interest but wanted to hang out. No acceptance of the sexual side of the equation implied or spoken. From discussing with my current wife her viewpoint on things, she has said she felt that my XW had thrown me away, thought I was great, and *told herself that if the XW doesn't want me*, then she sure does.


You might not feel guilty, ok. But for your CW I still see a clear contradiction in your post (the bolded parts). Even if she didn't have interest they were friends no? No offense, but what kind of person seduces their friends husband (even if ex)?

I might be way off base with this but I think these two issues could be related (having to deal with your XW for six years and how you met/started your relationship) to your current issue.


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

Ah - some explanation. When we divorced, I did all of the paperwork, and she just signed on the dotted line. No lawyers, just a couple of court fees. This has caused a few nuisance problems but all in all saved a LOT of $. Plus, I'm thinking that's the ONLY way I had a chance at the majority custody that I got. 

So her "getting me back" was her attempts at sabotaging me for her perceived poor situation after the divorce monetarily. Not to "get me back" in a relationship, but to punish me. She said so numerous times.


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## Suspecting (Jan 8, 2013)

Isn't this directly related to how you met your CW. Maybe she is punishing your CW and your wife realises it's because of her own past actions? I don't know but I think women have similar thing what we call 'brocode' aka do not mess with friends girlfriends/wifes/exs.

Let me ask you something. Had you two (you and your CW) not met, what are the chances she and your XW would still be friends/work buddies?


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## walkonmars (Aug 21, 2012)

Why not have her join this conversation?


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

Suspecting said:


> Isn't this directly related to how you met your CW. Maybe she is punishing your CW and your wife realises it's because of her own past actions? I don't know but I think women have similar thing what we call 'brocode' aka do not mess with friends girlfriends/wifes/exs.
> 
> Let me ask you something. Had you two (you and your CW) not met, what are the chances she and your XW would still be friends/work buddies?


That's certainly a possibility (the "wocode"). I don't think their friendship would have been long-lived - my XW long term would not have meshed with CW b/c she has a knack and a grudge against "fake" people who change themselves according to the crowd, which my XW very much was. But who am I to decide the future of an alternate reality?

@WalkonMars - I don't know that I would mind her joining, but I think some of what I have posted she will be very defensive about. I'm not looking to castigate her in any way - I'm looking to fully accept her and get past my issues.


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## SaltInWound (Jan 2, 2013)

ET1SSJonota said:


> @WalkonMars - I don't know that I would mind her joining, but I think some of what I have posted she will be very defensive about. I'm not looking to castigate her in any way - I'm looking to fully accept her and get past my issues.


Sometimes I suggest to posters to print out their thread and allow the spouse to read what has been said. Often, it is easier to write down feelings to strangers on an internet message board than it is writing them down to a spouse. Maybe the honesty (if you have been fully honest here) will open up doors for you and your wife to discuss important issues. Totally up to you.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

I'm posting this as a general comment rather than something specifically on point in this thread.

It's my experience that the vast majority of men out there are unaware of the level of engagement that many, many women are having with 'steamy' books on their readers and laptops. This constitutes both a revelation for many women and a major influence in the way they think about certain things. One of the things that women talk about when they are together is the fact that these books have them masturbating much more than ever before. These are fantasies that have real effects on their relationships. I think that men very often ignore this at their peril.


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> I'm posting this as a general comment rather than something specifically on point in this thread.
> 
> It's my experience that the vast majority of men out there are unaware of the level of engagement that many, many women are having with 'steamy' books on their readers and laptops. This constitutes both a revelation for many women and a major influence in the way they think about certain things. One of the things that women talk about when they are together is the fact that these books have them masturbating much more than ever before. These are fantasies that have real effects on their relationships. I think that men very often ignore this at their peril.


I can absolutely believe this. For us personally, she talked with me a good bit about the 50 shades series (I even read the first book). Considering she didn't feel that 50 shades was very intense like many other wives, I don't think she gets her kicks from "normal" books. She actually prefers much stronger, direct stories if she's going that route. This is routinely part of our sex life, as well as part of what I deem "her" sex-life.

@SaltInWound
I would generically agree that it is easier to write down thoughts and feelings. I have done so with my wife from time to time. I think a large part of our communication issues has to do with getting defensive. She peruses this forum, as I introduced it to her. I don't feel I have anything to "hide", but I'm not sure I want to push any issues with her until I have a better hold on MY issues. I don't like feeling confused about where I am at, and seriously wonder if I have lost my grip on reality sometimes with how wildly my emotions can swing on subjects. For the time being, the wife and I are getting along quite well. I just want to make it better.


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## Suspecting (Jan 8, 2013)

How did you find out about the "severity" of your XW's past cheating?

I read the original post again and I actually think it is your wife who has the issue and not you. Some (many?) people use porn and masturbation as a form of escapism so they don't have to deal with the reality or something that is weighing their mind. I wouldn't dismiss this if I were you.

What I also find interesting is you mention you XW kissing a friend of yours in highschool. You mention this as a clear red flag which is ironic as it is exactly what you did with your XW's friend, except you were not just dating but married and you didn't stop there.


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

Suspecting said:


> How did you find out about the "severity" of your XW's past cheating?
> I read the original post again and I actually think it is your wife who has the issue and not you. Some (many?) people use porn and masturbation as a form of escapism so they don't have to deal with the reality or something that is weighing their mind. I wouldn't dismiss this if I were you.
> What I also find interesting is you mention you XW kissing a friend of yours in highschool. You mention this as a clear red flag which is ironic as it is exactly what you did with your XW's friend, except you were not just dating but married and you didn't stop there.


I found out (initially) by my CW relaying stories that my XW had told her about all of her escapades. I then got XW to admit to them. 
The masturbation issue, while never "dead", is somewhere I don't think I can go again. I'm as satisfied as possible with the current situation of pretending I don't know anything about it - somewhat of an out of sight, out of mind thing. 
You keep going back to the beginning of our current relationship, and insinuating something wrong happened there. It didn't. How many times does it have to be said?


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

I'm a worrier and analyser, often agonizing over the past. My H is someone who likes to look at the present and react to that. Over the years, we've come to our own middle ground. One of the things I've definitely learned from him is that sometimes it's really better to stop analysing and just live. Many things that have transfixed me with concern just kind of melt away with time. This isn't denial. Rather, it's proof that they weren't long-term problems.

So, I guess I'm feeling that in the absence of serious concerns like infidelity, impoverishment, serious illness or other catastrophe, you might just want to let up on yourself and by extension your W. Give yourself a mental break and try to just enjoy the day. You say you love one another. That's really what it's about for me.


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## Suspecting (Jan 8, 2013)

ET1SSJonota said:


> I found out (initially) by my CW relaying stories that my XW had told her about all of her escapades. I then got XW to admit to them.
> The masturbation issue, while never "dead", is somewhere I don't think I can go again. I'm as satisfied as possible with the current situation of pretending I don't know anything about it - somewhat of an out of sight, out of mind thing.
> You keep going back to the beginning of our current relationship, and insinuating something wrong happened there. It didn't. How many times does it have to be said?


So if the XW, the cheating and the masturbation aren't issues after all what exactly is the issue?

I keep going back to the beginning because part of the title of this thread is "*is XW hurting current wife?*" which combined with the original post is suggesting that her past actions is the cause of your current situation. If this is not the case why mention her at all? I think how you started your current relationship is wrong and against my morals but not against yours. And it's ok we are all different.


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> I'm a worrier and analyser, often agonizing over the past… Give yourself a mental break and try to just enjoy the day. You say you love one another. That's really what it's about for me.


That is what I want to do… but



Suspecting said:


> So if the XW, the cheating and the masturbation aren't issues after all what exactly is the issue?
> I keep going back to the beginning because part of the title of this thread is "*is XW hurting current wife?*" which combined with the original post is suggesting that her past actions is the cause of your current situation.


Yes, the past actions of my XW, showing me both how gullible I can be/how well people hide their true selves, and how terrible another person can be. There were more things that my XW did, but for the sake of brevity (yeah… I know) I left out a lot. 
So – my relationship with my CW is suffering/how I treat my CW is hurting due to what my XW actions did to my line of thinking. I swung terribly from “everything is ok trust the ones you love” to “what’s the worst thing she could be thinking/planning?” This coupled with some, IMHO, some serious triggers that are justifiable behaviors but make me doubt heavily at times.

This isn't an always occurrence. For instance, the past week has actually been VERY good, not the least of which is because she has seemed to perk up, be in a very good mood, very loving and accepting of me. Other times, like before/during/after a fight last week, I get down and feeling like she's just waiting around for the next available opportunity to get to a "better" life; but I've isolated her here, presumably sometimes against her will. Some of it is triggered by accusations that I don't think hold water (me not supporting her through things, not doing enough); some of it triggered by nothing in particular.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

As I said before, we all have baggage. If you and your W love one another, you need to get to a place of trust and comfort and ease. It sounds like the path to that place is a big question mark for you right now because of the way your XW screwed up your world view. You have to believe there's a path, though, if you want your marriage to work. If you feel fatalistic or frightened because of the very messed up stuff with your X, you won't be able to face the issue with a constructive attitude.

So, set some goals for defining the path. Decide you will try to find a constructive way to attack the demons. Lots of options. IC. Books like 'His Needs/Her Needs', 'The Five Love Languages.' Talking here on this forum. Any or all of these things.

Achieving the goal may be a slog and you have no guarantee, but if you take it step by step with some positive determination, your mind might follow your lead.


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

I've read 5LL. Also have done online quizzes with her. Small changes, but not lasting. I certainly haven't given up (well - I came very close several times). I do see a path forward, but I keep getting in my own way. Part of that is not being able to determine, when I get these bad feelings, what is justified and should be taken care of, what is minor and shouldn't be bothered with, and what I should internalize and work my demons out with.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

ET1SSJonota said:


> but I've isolated her here, presumably sometimes against her will. Some of it is triggered by accusations that I don't think hold water (me not supporting her through things, not doing enough); some of it triggered by nothing in particular.


This could be a place to start working constructively. I'm assuming you mean that the lifestyle you have is one that you primarily chose and she acquiesced to because she loves you and wants to be with you. If this is so, then it's very true that this can lead to resentment as the day-to-day gets less than gratifying. You can discuss and revisit this with her. You can talk about other options for your future if she's unhappy with this, etc. Open, non-confrontational, compassionate communication here is key. (Believe me when I say I know from bitter experience that this is key.)


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> This could be a place to start working constructively. I'm assuming you mean that the lifestyle you have is one that you primarily chose and she acquiesced to because she loves you and wants to be with you. If this is so, then it's very true that this can lead to resentment as the day-to-day gets less than gratifying. You can discuss and revisit this with her. You can talk about other options for your future if she's unhappy with this, etc. Open, non-confrontational, compassionate communication here is key. (Believe me when I say I know from bitter experience that this is key.)


That's another point of our contention. Previously we struggled after I got out of the military. We actually made more when I was active duty Navy. I was unhappy with my job for multiple reasons, and knew I could make much more AND be happier elsewhere. We had numerous discussions about it, and it seemed we were both on board.
Now that I'm 3 years in, and making almost triple what I made before, and quite happy with my job other than long hours currently, it has come out that she felt forced to come (how, I have no idea). Since we've gotten here, I've done my best to make our life here everything she wants. We have numerous animals, most at her request, have changed much about our lifestyle to accommodate the hobbies here (that double as a job due to the nature of taking care of them - and the tax writeoffs). I look at our life as extremely blessed in most if not all things, but hear a lot of complaints from her end about what's wrong, with little to nothing about the good. Over time, these seem to take a toll on me and I start the negative thinking.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

You made the choice together, but it was based on your career. Spousal resentment can be huge with things like this even when the lifestyle looks good objectively. She was on board because she loved you and wanted to be together, but it wasn't a decision that was 'about her'; in her mind, it was about you, so she thinks she sacrificed. Once she starts to believe this, the daily cr*p gets very big and she gets negative.

(My daughter was happily doing a graduate degree when her advisor suddenly took a job in another country. My daughter could have chosen to stay in the place she was in, but decided it made more sense to finish up her work with the advisor she knew, so she moved. She was negative and critical about her life in the other country, always complaining and out of sorts. To the outside observer, her life looked good, but I knew that the problem was that it wasn't 'really' her choice. Sure, she decided, but she somehow had felt over a barrel. After 6 mos., she was given the option to continue her degree at her original place but with the remote guidance of her advisor. She decided to stay in the other country. Suddenly, she was calm and content. She had truly made the choice this time, so there was no resentment on her part. She completely owned the decision.)


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

That sounds pretty spot on. I don't know how I can make it hers now? I have offered to go where she wants to go. In the end, I just want her to be happy. She says she is... but often times doesn't ACT it.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

If this is accurate, then she resents you for your happiness with your life. She sees you making good money and gratified with your work while she stays home with the drudge work. She no doubt knows how valuable the mothering is, but she feels like you're getting the satisfaction boost daily and she is not.

I've been there, believe me. Some things you can do are:

- Plan vacations and nights out for just the two of you where she has to get dressed up.

- Don't mix vacations with work trips for you - she'll just feel like the tagalong wifey.

- Get the kids to bed so that you can have alone time. Tell her you want quality time to talk. Experts say that couples should have 15 hours a week of good conversation.

- Find some way to recommit to the life you have now. As I said, if she owns it, her attitude will probably change. Don't tell her that you'll go where she wants to - she won't want you to sacrifice (why? because she loves you and wants you to be happy even if it means she may be unhappy .) Talk to her about finding somewhere where both of you will be happy professionally and personally. Tell her it's a real question and ask her to think about it. She may surprise you and say that she thinks you should stay where you are. This is a recommitment.

- Look for ways to support her in her work or studies. Maybe she can study online or apply for part-time work that would help her self-esteem. Perhaps she has some ideas of her own for a business or career that she could get started with.

Lots of things you can try....


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

I do try to plan nights out, but admittedly have fallen extremely short here, particularly in the past few months (I have been working 12 hr days, 4 on 1 off since mid January). I also never thought about the dressing up part - I think that might be key.
Haven't tried to mix trips - but have had to make 2 work trips in the past 2 years. We really can't get away for very long due to all of the animals and their needs. But we DO have a camper, and a lake 3 miles away. 
I should take charge of getting kids to bed. We are fairly relaxed with specific time, between 8 and 9 usually. I could take that off her back.
I like the 'recommit' part. It is a different way to look at it than I had been. She has gotten her bachelors, and I have encouraged her to find work she would deem worthy, but with all of the other commitments she has said she doesn't want to. 
I appreciate your feedback, you've given me several avenues to look down, and a different perspective. Thanks!


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

In general, ET1, just try to think in terms of a partnership. My H jokes about his a bit, but he knows that this is extremely important to women. We want to be a team, a united front, with our H's. Working on things together, with mutual love and respect is so important. Trying to solve problems completely on your own in a vacuum sometimes just leads to more problems.

Good luck with everything. You sound like the love is there, which is the one sine qua non, in my opinion.


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## Calibre12 (Nov 27, 2012)

Just 2 thoughts: 
1) Your self esteem concerns me. Sure you assessed and evaluated yourself as you would appear to others, eg physically, but apart from being hard working and making good money, I don't hear much about your internal qualities and character traits, except "moron". So you do need IC to get your self constructs and self worth aligned. The material stuff makes you question your true value to a woman versus what you bring to the table. You want to feel like you mean more to your wife or any woman and that has to come from you, how you view your qualities versus being shallow. I see a lot of shallowness in your self descriptors. It seems you are without proper boundaries that will work to insulate and reinforce any form of integrity. You instead just go with the flow which reinforces your poor self image. 

2) This may directly tie into your own resentments of being passive and heavily relying on your wives to bring excitement to your life. Sounds like the current one checked-out bored with being the planner. Also, is it possible that you may resent your XW because maybe you believe that if it weren't for her actually hooking and lining your current wife and taking you along for the ride, you would have never met and sinkered such a beautiful 10 of a woman? If so, you have a further reason to be angry with yourself for not being man "enough" to bank such a babe on your own, you needed another woman to do it. You may resent your current wife much more than you think because you may wonder if you banked her by default...therefore via a dishonorable conquest. These may further reinforce your own self devaluation. And this may cause her to be overburdened and resentful herself. We all have to check the undertows in our marriages. Just thoughts.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

Calibre12 said:


> Just 2 thoughts:
> 1) Your self esteem concerns me. Sure you assessed and evaluated yourself as you would appear to others, eg physically, but apart from being hard working and making good money, I don't hear much about your internal qualities and character traits, except "moron". So you do need IC to get your self constructs and self worth aligned. The material stuff makes you question your true value to a woman versus what you bring to the table. You want to feel like you mean more to your wife or any woman and that has to come from you, how you view your qualities versus being shallow. I see a lot of shallowness in your self descriptors. It seems you are without proper boundaries that will work to insulate and reinforce any form of integrity. You instead just go with the flow which reinforces your poor self image.
> 
> 2) This may directly tie into your own resentments of being passive and heavily relying on your wives to bring excitement to your life. Sounds like the current one checked-out bored with being the planner. Also, is it possible that you may resent your XW because maybe you believe that if it weren't for her actually hooking and lining your current wife and taking you along for the ride, you would have never met and sinkered such a beautiful 10 of a woman? If so, you have a further reason to be angry with yourself for not being man "enough" to bank such a babe on your own, you needed another woman to do it. You may resent your current wife much more than you think because you may wonder if you banked her by default...therefore via a dishonorable conquest. These may further reinforce your own self devaluation. And this may cause her to be overburdened and resentful herself. We all have to check the undertows in our marriages. Just thoughts.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thoughts that don't seem to be too far from what goes on in my head...


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## Calibre12 (Nov 27, 2012)

You are way past the Richter scale in intelligence...your choice of words and writing skills make you an alpha. Unfortunately that can make you boring. So get some IC and broaden your ability to find excitement in some things you can call your own, parasailing perhaps? You gotta find out who you really are and claim the fullest potentials you possess.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

I think I'm pretty comfortable with who I am in terms of the things that I do. I want to get her to where she can claim time to do her things without feeling guilty or that she's letting anyone down. I've done everything I think humanly possible to make this happen besides literally forcing her away from the house. We had discussions before about how things I would consider "projects" that have no set time, and completion isn't crucial, she speaks of as "needs". 
I think one plan that I will have is a camping/trail riding weekend trip for just the two of us. I know we should have some time in summer with all of our boys at parents/grandparents houses.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Chris989 said:


> Hey, you seem to have had a bit of a hard time. I admit to not being able to fully understand what had happened to you. Most posts follow a pattern - "my wife/husband is cheating I am being nice why isn't it working?" - so when someone comes along with a different kind of problem I think "we" end up trying to fit it into one of the "normal" boxes.
> 
> Just to be clear on this - although I think I know the answer - have either you or your current wife been unfaithful in your current marriage?
> 
> ...


Your counselor should be an qualified to deal with infidelity. You should read NOt Just Friends by Shirley Glass and your counselor should be familiar with her work.

Most importantly, and I should have seen this earlier, you should have a counselor that is also qualified to deal with PTSD. You find this ouyt by asking them. Military vets that have been in battle have said that being cheated on is as bad or worse than battle. DO NOT DICOUNT THIS. Your first wife has damaged, understandibly, you.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

ET1SSJonota said:


> No worries on the hard time. Sometimes I need that - other times its hard to see why someone bothered to post, but that is the extent of my angst.
> I do not believe there has been any unfaithfulness in my current marriage. The ex-boyfriend makes me feel very insecure, but he hasn't even contacted since 2008 or so.
> The underlined statement captures it fairly well. I know I have some sort of issue because of how wildly I swing. On some days, I feel on top of the world, life couldn't be better, I have the best wife ever. Others, I feel like its all a lie, she's just there for comfort/security, and I'm just being played by everyone around me. It is hard to know in those times what's real and what's in my head.


Mood swings, have you been checked for depression?


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

chapparal said:


> Mood swings, have you been checked for depression?


My IC said that I had signs of depression. He didn't recommend a route to do anything about that. He spent a lot of time telling me that my emotions were "ok" without really giving anything to help.? 

I don't know if it runs to the extent of PTSD, but I certainly feel like something is wrong/broken with me, especially with how my wife responds to my attempts to do anything about it. 

I tried to talk about it the other night, after an amazingly good day, and it went rather poorly.


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## CleanJerkSnatch (Jul 18, 2012)

It seems almost too obvious that your wife is bored with you and desensitized the coitus interaction between you two.

She looks at a hot guys pictures (or maybe more) and then masturbates which is a near equivalent of a man watching porn, masturbating and wasting dopamine and blames it on you not wanting it. That is not very mature and very inappropriate to be looking at pictures of hot guys then masturbating. What kind of message does that send?


My point is, voodoo3000 has taken your place and desensitized any passion for copulation with your wife. All the chemicals involved in love making, dopamine neurotransmitter for good feeling, seratonin which produces OCD type attention in the raphe nuclei, oxytocin, bonding and long term attachment, endorphins, from the pituitary and hypothalamus, testosterone recepters in the hypothalamus etc etc. have been overloaded in her brain with her probably looking at pictures/videos or not. Either way, prior to you being around she has already satisfied her "needs" with something that she's used to because you can't really do it for her anymore. The toy is capable of doing things better than you. Therein lies your problem. That doesn't mean that toys completely ruin everything but in this situation it seems that voodoo3000 needs to go.


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

To be clear (I know the story was incredibly long), the only time pictures were a part of it was 10 yrs ago. She actually reads "erotic" stories - but I think some of the same effect has happened. And we have discussed it (occasionally civilly) with relatively no change. I haven't made a big deal about it in a few years because I have just accepted a second place status in her sex life to the little friend.


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

I think it important to note that I haven't "caught" her in probably 2 years. Prior to that however, literally every time I felt compelled to look it would be there (and the usual thing compelling me to look was a deadening sex life). It has been an on and off thing throughout our marriage to fight about the masturbating and use of the toy and stories in the bedroom together. I have flat out told her that it feels like her sex life is her masturbating, and "our" sex life is a chore. She swears that isn't true - and who am I to "really" say different? Part of that dynamic is my problem. It is 100% possible that she is being truthful, that she wants to mess around and have an active sex life with me, AND she likes to masturbate. It is also 100% possible that she hates having sex with me, wishes I would leave her alone to take care of herself, but wouldn't ever say that to spare my feelings, or prevent a negative reaction. 

At this point, I've done the no-no of telling her how I know, and she could easily take steps to hide it from me. I haven't checked in so long -and to a point there has been a piece of mind to it. It has come at the cost of some self-respect/self-worth, but overall I think a more "contentedness" with the status quo to not always be fighting over it and going back to the same situation.


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## calmwinds (Dec 10, 2012)

OK, so instead of trying to "catch" her, why not purchase BOB (battery operated boyfriend) yourself, present it to her and ask her to show YOU how to use it?


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

calmwinds said:


> OK, so instead of trying to "catch" her, why not purchase BOB (battery operated boyfriend) yourself, present it to her and ask her to show YOU how to use it?


I'm not sure what this is supposed to accomplish? Or do you mean use it on me?


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## calmwinds (Dec 10, 2012)

ET1SSJonota said:


> I'm not sure what this is supposed to accomplish? Or do you mean use it on me?


If this is her method of stress-relief, and you need more physical attention, this seems an excellent way for you to both get what you need AND usher in more intimacy into your relationship. I wasn't suggesting you back it up to BOB (unless you want to), just get her to show you what she likes and needs- then help her do it!


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

calmwinds said:


> If this is her method of stress-relief, and you need more physical attention, this seems an excellent way for you to both get what you need AND usher in more intimacy into your relationship. I wasn't suggesting you back it up to BOB (unless you want to), just get her to show you what she likes and needs- then help her do it!


That's actually a part of the problem. BOB is almost ever-present - either BOB or the stories. So there's "her" way (stories w/ BOB), then there's "our" way (more often than not either including BOB or stories). Makes me feel like an accessory instead of BOB. 

The other part that is hurtful is she fully agrees that reversing the situation would be terrible for her. If I was masturbating all the time, didn't seem to want much sex from her, and didn't regularly get off with her, it would be terrible. Hell, not getting off ONCE with her nearly puts her in tears, immediately. But if I have any concerns, I'm "putting pressure" on her.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

Here's my layman's take.

You initially had or developed self esteem and insecurity issues related to:

Your ex-wife's infidelity.
Your perception of your current wife's sex rank compared to you.

As time past, this was exacerbated by your long work hours and failing to meet some of her emotional needs. 

She starts masturbating in part as a reaction to her boredom and emotional frustration. This in turn takes your self esteem to an even lower level and you start demonstrating resentment; further perpetuating the emotional disconnection between the two of you.

I believe you have to get past these insecurities. Start thinking and acting positively. Avoid resentful thinking. Stop relying on her so much for your own happiness and well being. Fix yourself first.

If IC is not working, try another counselor. Reread MMSLP. Consider MC. Do everything you can to make yourself a positive and secure male, while at the same time engaging in positive and open communication to your wife. Work on meeting her needs. Work on being intimate and romancing her.

If your marriage and sex doesn't improve after that, then you'll have no regrets for having made your best attempt. At worst you'll be in a much better frame of mind to objectively consider if you want to continue with your marriage; and at best, maybe things will improve.


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

badmemory said:


> Here's my layman's take.
> 
> You initially had or developed self esteem and insecurity issues related to:
> 
> ...


All good things, and I will do/am trying to do most if not all of them currently.
One note to this is that the masturbating was occurring throughout our time together. I only found out about it once during our "dating" period, and then years later I learned that it was consistently done throughout our time together.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

I got nothing for you but damn, what a story.

Have you given thought to where your ex-wife must be at mentally after the divorce went down?

Her husband stole her crush who stole her husband and ran off and left her to marry each other.
That's gotta **** with your head on so many levels.

Maybe I do have something for you.

Start ****ing your wife.
Daily if you have to, stop waiting for her to be ready or want it.
Come home early tomorrow, kiss her, bend her over the kitchen table and just take her.

However you usually have sex stop having it like that.
Take her, as often and as selfishly as you can for awhile.

See how she reacts to that and act accordingly.

At the very least maybe you can get her thinking about you during those sex toy sessions.


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

tacoma said:


> I got nothing for you but damn, what a story.
> 
> Have you given thought to where your ex-wife must be at mentally after the divorce went down?
> 
> ...


Can't say that I've ever concerned myself with "where she might be" after it all - after her cheating numerous times, and going full speed ahead even after I put the consequences of her actions in front of her, I did a hard emotional reset stopped caring. But I get what you're saying. I do feel somewhat that I pulled the rug out from under her - but I feel I was entirely justified to do JUST that.
I would say that we have a fairly active sex life. 2-3 times a week generally. I have done plenty of "taking" - and that's part of the problem. It ends up feeling like it is always (the sex between us) "for me" (aka not into it from her end), or "for her" (aka she uses toy/reads and I'm just present). This is not always the case, but far and above so. Most if not all attempts at discussing the issues end up in fights and me being told that I just want too much. It's sometimes hard to care about the sex life, other times makes me very resentful that we have gotten to a point that my sexual urges are more hormone based than anything. I "want" her all the time - but rarely have the actual urge to do anything about it due to either guilt or resentment. I recognize that these are MY problems... but I'm not sure how to overcome them.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

ET1SSJonota said:


> I "want" her all the time - but rarely have the actual urge to do anything about it due to either guilt or resentment. I recognize that these are MY problems... but I'm not sure how to overcome them.


That's when I mean.

Stop worrying about her rejection just do it.

If you do get the rejection and/or she still seems to be giving out obligatory sex as a chore then after a while you're going to have to make a choice.

A: Live in a sexually miserable marriage.
B: Divorce and find someone who will want you.

Because if you can't talk about it (& trust me I know what you mean) and she won't come around then there's nothing else you can do.

I would advise you not to take option A when/if the time comes


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

Here's what I'm trying very poorly to say.

I'm betting she controls the frequency and timing of most sexual encounters through nothing more than prior training.

We have date night Saturday Night.
Wednesday is the middle of the week maybe an nooner during lunch.

Whatever it is she's the one controlling it without saying a word because you fear her rejection and don't usually make a move unless you know it's "safe".

Am I correct?
Because if I'm not just tell me an I'll drop this line of thought.

If I'm right then just stop allowing her to control it by being uncooperative(that's what she's doing anyway isn't it?) 
This Saturday night you'll be too tired but wake her up a half hour early Monday morning and just have at her.

See if this type of thing shakes her up a bit.

Again, this is dependent upon who controls the sex.
Think about it, she's controlling the time and tempo of your sex life isn't she?
If not, I'll shut up.


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

I would say she definitely controls timing and tempo *for the most part*. Usually, she finds a way to reject me that is not a "rejection" (and I am confident that if I told her I "needed" it she would "let me"). It turns into a situation in which I honestly DON'T want her at that point - at least not in the light that is proffered. Sometimes I wind up letting enough pent up in me that I end up taking her in the middle of the night or early early morning. I usually feel terrible after this.


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

I guess it's hard because I can't put my finger, or describe exactly what is wrong in such a way that I feel "wronged". I feel wrong - I think something isn't right - but I get sex. Plenty, compared to many. But to me what was once considered a tremendous connection between two people has bit by bit been chipped away at to seem like I'm this puppy dog doing whatever she wants, being fed just enough to make it impossible to "complain". Checking the box, as it were.
I don't want it if its for duty. Or for pity. Or to keep me quiet. I want passion. I want her to want it. Or I'd rather not. And I can't keep myself from doing it in those cases, because my body betrays me. And then I end up feeling terrible after the endless comments about me being "the dirty man" or "insatiable" or "wanting it so much" or the ever-popular "you just want me for my body". I love that one. As if the quarter-hours spent once or twice (maybe thrice) a week doing such activity, compared to all of the hours of companionship the rest of the week, means this... I swear I spend twice the time giving her neck/shoulder/foot/leg/arm massages in a given week than she does anything sexual with me. And I'm OK with that - I just miss feeling wanted. 
I've actually offered the "no sex" relationship. I think I could handle it, honestly. She rejects it - but I honestly don't know if that's because she wants me, or because she couldn't stand how terrible that sounds, or being "the bad guy". That one comes up a lot. Extremely defensive about ANYTHING that could make her the bad guy. Very much always armed with examples of how either a)I do the same thing (founded or not), or b) how it is irrelevant/wrong/paranoia. 
An example was our most recent fight. I was feeling pretty darn happy/good, wanted to talk about some of our issues, maybe give some closure to some of them. I was explaining how hard it is to get past the masturbating thing coupled with rare orgasm from just "us" (not necessarily PIV - I'm not entirely sexually retarded). Every time we use a toy or stories, she gets off. Most of the time, if we don't use either, she "chooses" not to. Any attempt to make headway here is met with accusations of "pressuring her", even if I just ask "what about you?". So I linked the two - Knowing that every time she looks at "story porn", and/or uses the toy - she gets off; and that when she masturbates, she does just this, the logical assumption is that she gets off(especially when considering the utter lack of interest in me following said times). So - she gets off "her way", and I"m just an accessory. She blew up, insisted that "I can't use logic" like that. Um.. WTF? 
I guess in a lot of ways I would just like, what's the word, validation? Not that my thoughts are "right" - heck, the first time she admitted to the masturbating while witholding from me I was devastated - I was hoping I was just crazy and she would show me how that was true. That I can have emotions, and they might just be hormones, or paranoia, or PMMS (pre-menstrual MAN syndrome), or whatever, but that it is OK that I HAVE the emotions. That I'm acceptable even with these emotions, and that they can be talked about (at all). I know she would say she has to hold stuff back - and truthfully I can't always sit and take and take her list of all that I do wrong, and all that is wrong with her life. But one issue at a time - HECK YEAH. I do that next to daily. Especially when the issue is something deeply troubling her.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

You two have problems layered on issues piled on misunderstandings....I have to say, though, that it doesn't sound that unusual to me. First of all, your communication dynamic - you talk almost orthogonally to one another - is the norm (read, e.g., D. Tannen's "You Just Don't Understand/Men and Women in Conversation). And women with children at home often feel very put upon. It's hard for a man who works hard to understand the sense of loss of any sort of freedom that attends staying at home with kids. It can be positively enraging. Especially...during high hormonal times.

And so it goes. I can tell you that I recognize a lot of the younger me in your description of your W. We didn't have the sex issue, but then again, I never told my H that I had to actively fantasize to actually enjoy sex for many years. The stress of work and family were simply too much & I had to retreat to fantasy land in order to enjoy sex. I never turned him down, but I wasn't always feeling it, that's for sure. (And now at our age, I think that he's out of gas sometimes.)

I would suggest trying to unwind the knot of problems you have to isolate just one & approach that. Start with communication, for example. Find a way to have a conversation about just one thing that is a sticking point. Make the ground rules include a requirement that you each let down your defenses and approach with COMPASSION (very important stipulation). Try to understand what the other is saying - mirror things back. This is ridiculously hard because men and women have very different understandings and perceptions. We hear and process things through very different filters. (Again, I recommend Tannen's work on the conversational worlds of men vs. women - it's completely neutral and very helpful.)


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

I will check out that book. 

Sadly - your second paragraph is what I would like to avoid wholesale. If I were to put myself in your husbands place, that would be terrible for me. This is therefore the balancing act that I am afraid is happening in my marriage - somewhat affected by how prevalent the information is out there of just such a situation: the woman hides the "truth". Not to put anything on you Alte Dame, I appreciate the explanation as well as the book suggestion - I would rather go sexless than potentially find out years later that it was like this for her.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

This being an anonymous board and us not knowing one another, ET1, I can only make guesses, of course. But I think what I'm saying is that a lot of what I hear about your daily life isn't outside the norm of loving marriages. I really love my H and we've had an active, really good sex life for many years. There was never a time when I wasn't deeply attracted to him. In my case, I was worn to the bone both physically and emotionally in the years when my children were young. I knew how important sex was to both of us, so I never turned him down, no matter how exhausted I felt. And sometimes, 'feeling it' when you're in that state as a woman takes some mental transporting, I guess.

You fear that it's you that has caused this & she will point her own finger, but to me, it's just the drudgery and awareness that you can never drop the ball with kids, no matter how much you'd like to do something else, anything else, even for an hour. Women get self-righteously angry with their hard-working husbands because they see them as having freedom and choices in their daily lives that they don't have. I once got angry that my H was able to leave his office to go for a dentist appointment. 'Just leave the office,' I thought. 'He doesn't have to move heaven and earth to find child care to do the simplest of things.' This is what goes on in the head.

If you've read 'His Needs/Her Needs,' you also see quite clearly how differently men and women prioritize sex. This also plays a big role in the different ways that you and your W view your current concerns.


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> This being an anonymous board and us not knowing one another, ET1, I can only make guesses, of course. But I think what I'm saying is that a lot of what I hear about your daily life isn't outside the norm of loving marriages. I really love my H and we've had an active, really good sex life for many years. There was never a time when I wasn't deeply attracted to him. In my case, I was worn to the bone both physically and emotionally in the years when my children were young. I knew how important sex was to both of us, so I never turned him down, no matter how exhausted I felt. And sometimes, 'feeling it' when you're in that state as a woman takes some mental transporting, I guess.
> 
> You fear that it's you that has caused this & she will point her own finger, but to me, it's just the drudgery and awareness that you can never drop the ball with kids, no matter how much you'd like to do something else, anything else, even for an hour. Women get self-righteously angry with their hard-working husbands because they see them as having freedom and choices in their daily lives that they don't have. I once got angry that my H was able to leave his office to go for a dentist appointment. 'Just leave the office,' I thought. 'He doesn't have to move heaven and earth to find child care to do the simplest of things.' This is what goes on in the head.
> 
> If you've read 'His Needs/Her Needs,' you also see quite clearly how differently men and women prioritize sex. This also plays a big role in the different ways that you and your W view your current concerns.


I have no read His Needs/Her Needs but it is on my list. I would definitely like to understand her more/better. 

In comparing our two cases, I wonder if, during that time that you were exhausted and strugging to find passion, you were also masturbating while knowing that your husband was wanting more intimacy with you? Because that I think is the main crux in a lot of my issues with my wife. It is from the feeling of not being wanted/needed that I end up drawing conclusions as to what her future intentions might/might not be, and take perhaps her words out of context, or inappropriately read into her cues that she is looking for an exit, just one that is more opportune for her. 

I'll give another example. This morning waking up for work, we ended up being intimate (25ish min). As is usual, with a lack of toy or story reading, she declined getting to her finale. As is unusual, I did as well. In the past, this has not gone well - I have no idea what the difference is. Anyway, it was a great experience, felt wonderful, etc. 

On the way to work, I can't help but imagine one of 2 scenarios:
A) Relief on her part that it is over and she can just return to sleep.
B) Relief on her part that she can finally get the toy out and finish the job that I couldn't.

This all but ruins it for me. I now wish I had just kept my hands to myself. I recognize this does NOTHING to help me - but I can't help feeling this way.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

The short answer is 'no,' I did not masturbate in lieu of intimacy with my H. And I agree that this may well be the crux of your problem. What seems to separate me from many of the women that I've known in my life and that I read about here is my empathy for other people's dignity. With my H, I have always thought that if he put himself out there initiating sex, why would I want to offend his dignity by acting like it was anything other than a gift and a sign of love? I know that I would feel humiliated if I initiated and he turned me down, so why on earth would I treat him that way?

So, here's the thing. You say that your W gets upset if you don't finish. Why? No doubt because she takes it as a sign that you might not truly be attracted to her. What seems to be missing here is her empathy for you, her understanding that it's exactly the same for you when she doesn't seem to be able to O when she's with you.

I think the both of you reading HN/HN could be more helpful than you realize. I'm an academic and don't much care for most self-help books, but that one really has value, imo.

ETA: I realize that I may have misinterpreted the following. If so, mea culpa:

"As is usual, with a lack of toy or story reading, she declined getting to her finale. As is unusual, I did as well. In the past, this has not gone well - I have no idea what the difference is. "


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> ...
> So, here's the thing. You say that your W gets upset if you don't finish. Why? No doubt because she takes it as a sign that you might not truly be attracted to her. _*What seems to be missing here is her empathy for you, her understanding that it's exactly the same for you when she doesn't seem to be able to O when she's with you.*_
> 
> I think the both of you reading HN/HN could be more helpful than you realize. I'm an academic and don't much care for most self-help books, but that one really has value, imo.


Exactly. But its not even just in that situation, it seems to be in so many other situations as well. Feeling alone. Disciplining kids. Social pressures. Everything is easy and simple for me, and hard and intimidating for her. 

As to the why? I have no idea, other than the standard "guys always want to" crap - which I don't buy. And I have directly asked just that question. With no answer.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

When someone is home daily with children, it creates a drag that is hard to describe. For a woman like this, the freedom of the people out in the world looks like a lost life. No matter how hard-working you are or how stressful your job, she will think that you have options that she doesn't have. It creates a resentment and victim attitude that is hard to see past.

I started to view my husband in a very two-dimensional way in those years. At one point I asked myself why I could have such compassion for my son, who was, after all, also a male, but have none for my H. I saw my H as the one with the unfair advantages, simply because the rigors of raising children made me feel trapped. And I had trapped myself, of course - having kids was definitely my choice. And I loved them madly, so there was no wishing that I could turn the clock back on that score.

Empathy and compassion were key for me. I went to an IC who helped me feel tenderness and compassion for my H. It was a revelation & I felt terrible for not having seen it much sooner. He, for his part, was no angel, so we both had work to do.

Why not get the recommended book and ask your W to read it as well & then the two of you discuss? If you approach discussions as non-confrontationally and tenderly as possible, it could begin to push past some of her resentments.


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

I'll try that, thank you.


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

I have read your post, which took some time.

It is the American Reality, base for a novel. 

I will maybe never understand Americans. This is so where it all leads to. MC would have been ofcourse the right direction. But what MC would tell you are things that should be common sense for normal people.

Like so many, many many of these stories here are disfunctional people in discfunctional relations.

What else would be the outcome of your life then as what you describe?

You should have a clear picture of what you want in life, set priorities, and cut out the usual American Dream crap, because that is killing for real happiness.

Make love, attention, togetherness the issues you care about, find people who have the same values. 

Forget about work, money, cars, house, beauty, status etc. Low priority compared to the other things.

Oh, these first things will lead to a better sex life too...


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