# Am I a chump or a d1ckhead. I need help either way.



## DWM

My wife left me on Friday and took all the kids with her (We have 4 children together, 18, 15 , 12 and 10) . Its been a while coming and we were on a cusp of fixing or failing, but she caught me putting a keylogger on her computer and decided that was the last straw. 
Here is the background. We have been married 22 years and have been together for 3 years prior to that. 

About 10 years ago she had an EA with a man, a divorcee who very fortunately didn’t reciprocate and take advantage so it never (as far as I know) developed into a PA. I was blind at the time and didn’t see the signs that were obvious in hindsight. We went to marriage counseling and reconciled. But still all the time she complained that I, all the time was controlling and she felt constrained. In many ways its true. She is very bad handling money and I keep her to a budget. (she manages her own accounts as she pleases but I only put the agreed budget into it). 

Over 3 years ago I had to move to Canada to start a new job. She remained behind with the children for 18 months for her to complete a Masters degree she wanted to do. At this stage I trusted her enough to leave her to do it. After the being autonomous for 18 months (during which she also overspent the money I had left in the account under her full control) she again felt that I was over controlling when she came to join me in Canada 2 years ago. Within a year of coming here she again had an emotional affair. It lasted a couple of weeks and she (claims she) stopped it herself just as I was discovering it. I was much more aware . I found some of the facebook chat they had where she was disparaging me to the OM. 

This pained me terribly as I had sacrificed much to have her stay and complete her degree while I moved across the Ocean, seeing her only 4 times in the 18 months. She used to be short sighted I agreed that she could have expensive Lasik surgery, and within a month of that she was into the EA. This was over a year ago. I felt very betrayed and I did become more of a jerk because of it. I trusted her less and she resented the fact that I was checking up on her. I had her Hotmail and facebook passwords but lately she has been becoming more and more insistent that spouses should have some spheres of privacy in a marriage. She treats that as if it is a basic axiom and the normal state of affairs that no sane person can contradict. 

So she had been feeling more and more put upon and “controlled” and a colleague of hers (her boss in fact) put her onto the “landmark forum” and she attended a weekend seminar and subsequent evenings. I read up about Landmark and became more concerned and I didn’t want her to attend the advanced course. (about another $1000 that it would put us out of pocket.) Her job is part time and so here income is very low and I would have to stump the money for this and I refused. 

She has also often stolen money from joint accounts behind my back when she thought I would not find out. When I did find out she said that I didn’t give her enough in the budget. Its what we agreed but she then claimed she was too scared of me to ask for more. Besides, the cash flow is marginal now anyway so there can’t be more available. 
One of the consequences of the landmark seminars is that she was encouraged to open up about her past sins to people she has wronged in the past. One of the things I got was that she had another EA just 2 years into our marriage with a work colleage which progressed to kissing and cuddling in the basement (and out of sight) office where he worked. This was not volunteered to me but only revealed when in the midst of an argument about her most recent EA I asked if she had any other secret liasons that up to then I was not aware of. 

This was rather shocking to me and of course I started to thing that I had been trickle trothed and their must be more. I have still insited on monitoring her e-mail, phone and facebook and she became even more adamant that that is an invasion of her privacy that no normal couples should do. I had asked her to write a confession or a timeline to help me get to the whole truth and help me believe that she wanted to now be honest and transparent. The reason I asked her to write it is because I thought it would be easier for her to do than to tell me face to face. This she refused to do. I checked one of her chat sessions and found out she had bounced this request off a friend who has just come out of a messy marriage and divorce. (the ex husband was a real control freak who refused her contact with her own family) The response from the well meaning friend was “NO NO NO NO NO, he just wants to use that confession against you and take it to his lawyers) 

Using this information I asked her if she was talking about our problems to her friends. She said “no”. I asked if she was talking directly to this divorcee saying that she is not a good foil to talk to given her sad history and obvious biases, she again said “No!” An outright lie to me and I told her so.

Things have gone downhill from there and now she has left me since she found me putting a keylogger on her (shared with childrens) computer. I wanted to check on the children too. This to her was the last straw for her and she moved out on Friday while I was at work. She did it in a deceitful manner acting all warm and loving until she dropped me off at the office. 

Am I a chump or have I driven her to this action by being too hard on her.

P.S. she may well find this post herself as she is aware that I have been reading TAM. Clumsy and careless of me leaving the computer open with this page up, just as I was clumsy with the keylogger. It seems her insistence on privacy does not limit her from looking at what I am doing on the computer.


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## costa200

Too hard on her? ROFL... Dude, I think she did you a favor. She wants to be single and you can't really stop a hoe. BTW, are you sure the kids are yours? I now you don't want to hear this, but i would test them if i were you.


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## FryFish

You arent a chump... she is a ****... Talk to the police about getting your kids back asap.


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## happyman64

DWM

No. You were not too rad on her if everything you I'd and she did are accurate.

Have the wife return the kids and tell her she is free to go.

Then get a good lawyer and protect your kids and assets.

She should have been grateful instead she tricks you in the end.

Your wife is a coward.

HM64


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## Fvstringpicker

Listen to this, it will help.

Roy Clark "Thank God And Greyhound" - YouTube


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## Acabado

Time to lawyer up.
Every time people complains about privacy invasion is becuase they had a different agenda. Period.

She's a serial cheater, she overspends, she steals money... of course every time you put your foot down or enforce pretty reasonable boundaires it f0cks her wish for freedom (freedom to cheat without interference).

Nothing you did sounds controling but very apropiate self protection.

She knows damm well.


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## DWM

As a parting shot she called the cops on me to get them to explain that in spite of her leaving she has the right (apparently in Quebec) to have full access to the (marital) house even as she has left. She is staying with a friend of hers nearby and says I can have fair access to the kids. I brought them back to visit today. They prefer to stay with their mother for now. I feel betrayed by my eldest son who helped his mother pack and move stuff out.

P.S She classifies my "controlling" as emotional abuse. I have had a temper (I have never hit her) but I do shout loudly. She had a very domineering father (Stepfather as it turned out which she didn't know until after our wedding).

I am also looking for Opinions on the LANDMARK FORUM. Is it healthy for self development and relationships. It seems to have helped bring things to a head.


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## Will_Kane

You have a wife who has hid at least three affairs from you, yet who expects you to trust her completely and believe everything she tells you. She is self-centered and entitled.

Apparently she believes that it is OK to cheat if you don't like how your spouse is treating you.


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## Count of Monte Cristo

Fvstringpicker said:


> Listen to this, it will help.
> 
> Roy Clark "Thank God And Greyhound" - YouTube


I love that song.

I almost didn't click on the link because earlier Chapparal hoodwinked me into clicking on a Kellie Pickler video and it turned out that Taylor Swift was in it. (She may sell millions of records but I'm still not a fan.)


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## arbitrator

Time to move on, my friend! Way too much circumstantial evidence and just way too many red flags. Her priorities have now changed into procuring "stange stuff" for her own personal pleasure!

Kick her to the curb, do "the 180," get a lawyer ASAP, and get custody of those kids.

And it's rather apparent that she doesn't even have a leg to stand on. After all, it's painfully obvious that they've both been up in the air!


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## DWM

arbitrator said:


> ........
> 
> It's apparent that she doesn't have a leg to stand on. After all, it's painfully obvious that they've both been up in the air!


I still do not believe that. She has had EA's and gone past the boundaries of marriage but not as far as intercourse.


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## OldWolf57

I never understand how a spouse can quesion their actions when they KNOW they've been lied to.
Let the cheating thang go dude !!
Hell, tell her you want DNA for all the kids

Here you are a mature sane man, and as much as you have been lied to, do you really expect a thang like her to fess up. 

Now think, would you expect to be believed if you was caught in lies time and time again ??? 
So that show you right there she think she can do this walking and you will come around, since you let her get away the other times without consequence.

Dude, she's an OLD WOMAN with kids, who wants that for more than some jumping jacks.
You on the other hand, are still the MAN, with a good job, so you won't have any trouble replacing her.
Let her grow old alone, with cats to keep her warm.

If it was me, I would have walked the first time.

Polygraph her butt if she wants to be believed.

Lying, cheating, and stealing, but she wants privacy. privacy is for using the bathroom. She wants to be able to start more affairs.

Oh, if she is using your shared CC, or debit card, you better move fast before she clean them out.
If she steals during good times, just think what she will do in her screwed up thinking now.

How in the heck does she think she deserve privacy giving her past history ??

When she contact you, tell her you are getting a lawyer to find out what your rights are if any of the kids are not yours.

I would'nt believe anything that came out of her lying cheating mouth.
When they admit kissing, you find out later it wass full sex, so don't believe anything she say.

Stick o your guns.


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## OldWolf57

Dude, there ain't a thing the cops can do if you change your locks. That is a civil matter. And until a judge tell you to give her a key fock her.


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## DWM

OldWolf57 said:


> .....................
> Oh, if she is using your shared CC, or debit card, you better move fast before she clean them out.
> If she steals during good times, just think what she will do in her screwed up thinking now.
> 
> ................


Funny you should say that. We have a joint account in Ireland. She told me (as she was leaving) she had taken the debit card and withdrawn $400. Thanks for the warning, I checked the account online the next day and found out she had withdrawn another $400 (320 euro). I reported the card stolen so that they stopped it but I now have to arrange to have the account frozen. That account is a buffer that services a mortgage for a house in Ireland and loses money at around $800 per month. The rent does not cover the mortgage and insurances. The kicker is that that house is in her name.! The house in Quebec is in my own name only. This is a complication, but in a way she is stealing from herself.


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## OldWolf57

As for your son, I'm too unfeeling to advise on that.

I once cut my oldest son out of my life. When he got his butt out of prison, you bet he understood what I was telling him.
For almost 7 yrs he was dead to me.
You don't eat my food and disrespect me.


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## DWM

OldWolf57 said:


> Dude, there ain't a thing the cops can do if you change your locks. That is a civil matter. And until a judge tell you to give her a key fock her.


As the cops she called told me, apparently it is a crime in Quebec to change the locks on a separating spouse. They said I could go to jail for that.


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## Kasler

OldWolf57 said:


> As for your son, I'm too unfeeling to advise on that.
> 
> I once cut my oldest son out of my life. When he got his butt out of prison, you bet he understood what I was telling him.
> For almost 7 yrs he was dead to me.
> You don't eat my food and disrespect me.


Yeah way too many young people bite the hand that feeds them.(financially as well) Most disrespectful and ungrateful thing you can do.


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## OldWolf57

I don't know anything about Canadian laws, but with only your name on the title, you should be able to change your locks.
That way she can only get in when you are home.

Anyway, consult a lawyer on it.


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## OldWolf57

Tough love is the best love sometime.

If I was you, I would see a lawyer yesterday !!!
Cops are not lawyers !!!


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## OldWolf57

As for the Ireland house, letting her lose it would save you some dollars since you won't have to make up the difference.


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## DWM

OldWolf57 said:


> As for the Ireland house, letting her lose it would save you some dollars since you won't have to make up the difference.


Its also worth more than my Canadian House. (approx in the ratio of euro/dollar) but she can have it. It will be a millstone around her neck but I have to get myself out of the mortgage liability, which is joint.

But I am a chump,. I still think I love the b1tch. She is 44 years old and still very pretty as well. That might have been part of her problem. She was an ugly duckling in her youth and coupled with the domineering stepfather it gave her self image issues.


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## Kasler

^ You may love her but she don't love you.

What you want doesn't matter to her. Don't try to get your wife to do what you want her to, it always back fires. 

She has to choose. Now you don't just stand around either, she her choices, you make yours.


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## DWM

Kasler said:


> ^ You may love her but she don't love you.
> 
> What you want doesn't matter to her. Don't try to get your wife to do what you want her to, it always back fires.
> 
> She has to choose. Now you don't just stand around either, she her choices, you make yours.


That is becoming more and more apparent. She never saw my loyalty and generosity, only my bouts of anger and "controlling".


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## Kasler

So many betrayed spouses think "I have to save my marriage" When its already gone and they're just holding the pieces.


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## DWM

Kasler said:


> So many betrayed spouses think "I have to save my marriage" When its already gone and they're just holding the pieces.


You are probably right. My own sisters have been telling me that I am well rid of her. They knew more than I did all along what she was up to and my sisters hadn't done me any favours by withholding their opinion and observations from me. 

My own 12 year old son broke my heart today by saying the situation sucks.


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## OldWolf57

I don't know how long its going to be before her friend start feeling put upon, but do NOT let her talk you into moving out of your house.
Tell her the smaller three always have a place to stay, so her and the oldest can stay where they are. BUT, since she has been unfaithful, you want DNA done.

You are sounding like most BS saying no PA, only to find out different.
Believe us, there is nothing unique about your situation. Just do some thread reading.


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## OldWolf57

What did your sisters know ??


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## TBT

Do you think she would take your children back to Ireland?


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## mrstj4sho88

Count of Monte Cristo said:


> I love that song.
> 
> I almost didn't click on the link because earlier Chapparal hoodwinked me into clicking on a Kellie Pickler video and it turned out that Taylor Swift was in it. (She may sell millions of records but I'm still not a fan.)


:iagree:


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## DWM

OldWolf57 said:


> What did your sisters know ??


What they observed and were told by WW herself (what I wasn't told also because my sisters told WW not to hurt me and kept their opinions from me) During her 18 months alone in Ireland she sometimes went out at night leaving eldest son (then 15 to babysit). 

My sisters also told me that WW had admitted her EA to them while we were at one of my sister's wedding. The EA was going on in Germany and we had travelled to a wedding in South Africa. WW was almost bragging about the money she could squeeze out of me and she could use it to fly out her best friend (from South Africa) to visit her in Germany. For reasons best known to themselves, my sisters kept this from me until yesterday.


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## DWM

TBT said:


> Do you think she would take your children back to Ireland?


Very possibly but I do not think she would do it unilaterally. Her mother and Aunts and Uncles live there. Also we are not permanent residents in Canada. If I leave my current job we then all would have to leave Canada. (we are all dual Irish and South African Citizens.)


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## moxy

She's not committed to you. Let her go. You deserve better than what she is giving you.


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## JCD

Move all your money to other accounts. Switch your direct deposit.

Take a swab of 18 yr old's cheek and tell him it's for DNA testing. He'll get the implication.

So...wife is BRAGGING to your own SISTERS how much money she can bilk you out of so she can visit an 'EA' (yeah sure) and you STILL have warm feelings for her?

Love isn't just blind, it's stupid!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DWM

JCD said:


> ......
> 
> Love isn't just blind, it's stupid!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thats true, but most of WW's female friends who have her side of the story will paint me as the bad guy, bullying, emotionally abusive (this is the line she herself uses to describe our relationship) and of course the ubiquitous "controlling". I do think a lot of that is true. I have a temper that scares WW and although I have never physically hurt her, I have sometimes thrown things, threatened to cut off money or make her life difficult in the house from what I can control.


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## JCD

DWM said:


> Thats true, but most of WW's female friends who have her side of the story will paint me as the bad guy, bullying, emotionally abusive (this is the line she herself uses to describe our relationship) and of course the ubiquitous "controlling". I do think a lot of that is true. I have a temper that scares WW and although I have never physically hurt her, I have sometimes thrown things, threatened to cut off money or make her life difficult in the house from what I can control.


Fine. If you fel the need to demand a share of the blame for her cheating, here it is: you are a controlling ****head.

How about this? Let her stay gone, check with a lawyer, stop paying for her house, and set your fiscal, legal and psychological life in order.

SHE LEFT *YOU*. Understand that. Because YOU wouldn't allow her to cheat unmolested by your attention.

If that is controlling, then I'm a control freak.

How about you see a counselor (a GOOD one) and see what they say? Go to anger management. But she has her own lump of mud which she's never held. It's hers but she'd rather throw it at you.

So her girlfriends think you are an ogre...maybe. Maybe they give you a call in a few weeks as well. Does it really matter what they think? If confronted, correct them with the facts. Live your life, Make yourself as happy as you can.


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## HappyHubby

DWM said:


> As the cops she called told me, apparently it is a crime in Quebec to change the locks on a separating spouse. They said I could go to jail for that.


It's Quebec. what do you expect? ...I've heard some messed up things about Quebec law. screw that province... and I speak french fluently not that that really has anything to do with anything.


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## Shaggy

It's pretty clear your wife want the freedom to cheat. If she admits to kiss an EA, not only was it PA, but that always really means oral sex.

So you're no a d1ckhead. You're a poor guy who's wife is a serial cheater and who wants to have a nice secret life where she can carry on with other men without your interference.


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## OldWolf57

Do you mean to say that you are so codepended that you actually care what HER friends say ?? You, an actual grown man, cares what someone who DON'T pay your bills or put food on your table, has you afraid of how they see you.

Never mind her having your son keep things from you.
Never mind her bragging of an ea ( like thats all it was )


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## Fvstringpicker

Count of Monte Cristo said:


> I love that song.
> 
> I almost didn't click on the link because earlier Chapparal hoodwinked me into clicking on a Kellie Pickler video and it turned out that Taylor Swift was in it. (She may sell millions of records but I'm still not a fan.)


I try not to mislead folks. I couldn't think of any better advise than is in that song.


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## DWM

OldWolf57 said:


> Do you mean to say that you are so codepended that you actually care what HER friends say ?? You, an actual grown man, cares what someone who DON'T pay your bills or put food on your table, has you afraid of how they see you.
> 
> Never mind her having your son keep things from you.
> Never mind her bragging of an ea ( like thats all it was )


Don't get me wrong, I care less what they think of me, because I know where most of them come from. What is the concern is that they are the mirror they WW his holding herself up to and she thinks what they think and say is how normal couples should behave and that it is normal that people are entitled to their privacy and their husbands money (even when they do not work for it in any meaningfull way).


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## OldWolf57

Dmw, you should be making plans that don't include her.
Until she see that you are NOT going to put up with her OR her friends bs, she is going to keep on doing things how she WANTS.
Its time for you to give her, and oldest son a taste of having to provide for themselves. That means cutting off all accesses to any money. 
When she comes saying its for the kids, tell her to make a list of what the 3 youngest needs. Tell her since the oldest is 18 and wants to get into gown ppl business, he is grown enough to get a job, and find somewhere else to live.

In fact, pack ALL HIS STUFF and have it by the door, so they can see it next time they come by while you are gone.
You should call her and tell to bring him to come get his s**t, for you don't want him in your house ever again.
Since the cops said you can't lock her out, well, you are not married to him.

If you have'nt noticed, I play hardball. AND it your time now too.


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## warlock07

DWM said:


> What they observed and were told by WW herself (what I wasn't told also because my sisters told WW not to hurt me and kept their opinions from me) During her 18 months alone in Ireland she sometimes went out at night leaving eldest son (then 15 to babysit).
> 
> My sisters also told me that WW had admitted her EA to them while we were at one of my sister's wedding. The EA was going on in Germany and we had travelled to a wedding in South Africa. WW was almost bragging about the money she could squeeze out of me and she could use it to fly out her best friend (from South Africa) to visit her in Germany. For reasons best known to themselves, my sisters kept this from me until yesterday.



WTF? You sure she did not have any PA during this time ? You enabled your wife for far too long. You are doing that even now...

She is stealing money

She is having affair after an affair

She hates you 

What does this woman have to give to the marriage ? 

Maybe the kids are with her and believe her because they were with her all this time while you were jumping countries for you job. She was the stable factor in their lives


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## JCD

Your son hid her actions from you. Think hard on that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## costa200

Now how many guys are willing to put themselves at a disadvantage in their kid's hearts by not just exposing the hell out of these types of situations?

Kids think you are controlling and such? I wonder how that thought will endure once they know that the victim of such control is a cheating POS?


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## DWM

I hope to see a lawyer soon, but from friends around here I hear that its not going to be easy to cut her off. She has minimal income, and I could be forced to support her by law. I want to support my kids but that of course enables her to support herself. 

Well eldest son has to think long and hard too about how his mothers actions affecte him. He is a brilliant guitarist and her EA of over a year ago cut off his avenue to go and jam with bands for a period of a year because her recent EA was with the drummer of one of the bands that play at that venue. I refused to take him there for about a year. She revealed to me a few weeks back that after she cut off contact with OM she still had feelings for the OM for a year afterwards. 

Eldest son will now also suffer since I will not be able to afford to keep up his music lessons with any split household arrangement. 

I really fear that you are right and there is far more than she is telling me. Some of her actions or words to me indicate a possible level of self discust. She does tell me that I will be better off without her. 

When she went to the Landmark Forum , where they were encouraged to call people they'd hurt and confess to them and try to mend relations she never called me or volunteered information to me, her husband. She called her stepfather, who she hadn't spoken to for 20 years. She even called my sister but she never called or volunteered to tell me what she had done that would hurt me. Was she too scared to reveal all? Part of the tension of the past few weeks is that I continually had the feeling that she hadn't revealed everything, even though she repeatedly assured me that she had. 

Does she want to get away because she is afraid to tell me more? Is she scared of my reaction? She tells me I am better off without her which suggests to me she is still hiding something that she thinks would hurt me more and cause more anger from me.


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## happyman64

Oh yeah DWM

Your wife is a onward when it omes to you and your marriage. And quite possibly fearful too.

Maybe if you promise not to get angry she will finally come clean.

After that confession you might be ready to move on without her or quite possibly still love her and hope she gets the therapy she needs.

Because she needs therapy. And her troubles o back before you Gusy married.

You know wht else? I think your kids will need some help from you as well.

HM64


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## DWM

happyman64 said:


> Oh yeah DWM
> 
> Your wife is a onward when it omes to you and your marriage. And quite possibly fearful too.
> 
> Maybe if you promise not to get angry she will finally come clean.
> 
> After that confession you might be ready to move on without her or quite possibly still love her and hope she gets the therapy she needs.
> 
> Because she needs therapy. And her troubles o back before you Gusy married.
> 
> You know wht else? I think your kids will need some help from you as well.
> 
> HM64


I am and she is well aware that she needs therapy. She had tried to get that from the Landmark Education Forum which is a large group awareness training forum. I was not very supportive of this as I distrust it from reading its origins and some issues with law and government in some countries. I think it did more harm than good. Its not one on one and it possibly gave her a false sense of empowerment but without making her ready enough to confront her own demons or revealing them to me.

I put the question before. Does anyone here have any experience or knowledge about Landmark Education forums. I think it has damaged my wife more than it helped her.


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## warlock07

Ok, this is something i found out on Landmark

Im losing my sister... Dear Reddit, does anybody know about, "Landmark Education?" : AskReddit


Is the Landmark forum a cult? Any experience with it? : AskReddit


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## DWM

Yes Warlock, I saw many things like that from Googleing Landmark Education. My question to the good folks here or those that are real therapists (of which the quality also seems very variable) who have intimate knowledge of how safe or damaging it is to relationships. 

Incidentally it is something my wife would probably volunteer for. She does so much of that. She is involved in La Leche League as , the Breastfeeding help and advocacy group, as a leader and has been for 17 years. She is good with people and works for weightwatchers as well (but it doesn't pay much). The LLL work is totally voluntary with no pay and many hours over the years.


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## warlock07

DWM said:


> Yes Warlock, I saw many things like that from Googleing Landmark Education. My question to the good folks here or those that are real therapists (of which the quality also seems very variable) who have intimate knowledge of how safe or damaging it is to relationships.
> 
> Incidentally it is something my wife would probably volunteer for. She does so much of that. She is involved in La Leche League as , the Breastfeeding help and advocacy group, as a leader and has been for 17 years. She is good with people and works for weightwatchers as well (but it doesn't pay much). The LLL work is totally voluntary with no pay and many hours over the years.



Have you read the comments ? Most of them scream cult but the most positive comment I found about them was this



> I know this is going to be unpopular but I want to temper the black and white statement of "it's a cult." Also I have some advice for the OP at the end.
> I was brought to an open house (recruiting session) and was immediately put off by the high pressure marketing they load on you. They play heavily on everyone's fear of missed opportunities and get a lot of people to sign up on the spot. Myself being eager to explore any new way of thinking about life I did sign up in spite of not because of the marketing. Also partially because a lot of what people said about its techniques sounded like what I was learning in my Masters program (studying mediation and conflict resolution).
> Having completed the program I have to say that it is an incredibly slick, well dilivered amalgam of some very good philosophical ideas. In reality it's whole "point" boils down existentialism, the idea that nothing has inherent meaning, not even the "story" you've created about the events in your life and why they make you the person you are now. The idea being that once you acknowledge this as a possibility, you're now free to recreate your own meaning, and you're not limited by the stories that "made you shy" or "made you afraid of commitment." Those are all just things that happened, but you have a large amount of control of how they effect you.
> Now, some background, I had already come to a lot of this conclusion on my own over about 5 years between graduating college, serving in the Peace Corps in West Africa, and now with my Masters program. So I really had no difficulty with anything they said, they were just giving me some different language to understand and explain it with, great! For some people, the facilitators really had to challenge their beliefs about the world, their agency in it, and their identity. I saw some really powerful self discovery and I saw a lot of pain as people let go of some long held beliefs that had been stifling to them and what they wanted to achieve. This was extremely emotional for these people. Essentially they were pushed, not gently, into perceiving the world and it's freeing meaninglessness the way I already did. Instead of getting there over 5 years of good and bad experiences, that experience was crammed into 2 days.
> Now, in my experience, whenever you deliver a profound shift in understanding regarding world views and deliver it through a, possibly painful, emotional experience, people become attached. So what I saw at the end is a lot of people who had just begun to see how much ability they really had to effect the way they interacted and were effected by the universe and they all believed the Landmark rhetoric that Landmark is the only way to learn and utilize this knowledge.
> That's where the cultishness comes in. It's not a cult, it's a business. The product their selling is the most effective tool I've ever seen at taking someone from "my life sucks, all this bad stuff happens to me and makes me unsuccessful or unhappy" to "Hey, life isn't terrible. It just is. Events just happen. I actually have a choice in how I feel about them. That's awesome cause now I can break my iphone and not rage cause it's just stuff. Or I can say, that guy yelled at me, I wonder what's going on with him? Man, I can do anything. The Universe doesn't give a damn about me one way or the other, so I can just go do/get/achieve anything I want." The product is great, but the way they market it, and the way they take advantage of the fact that most of their students have never seen this stuff anywhere else is disgusting to me. I get that they need to keep making money and keep selling modules, but they do so by preying on the very ideas they just taught you.
> By this I mean, they've taught you now that all the "obstacles" in your way only stop you because you let them (not universally true, but it is to an extent). Then they convince you that your reluctance to sign up for the next session is you letting yourself be held back in your growth. Then they convince you that the magic sauce to getting along with all the people in your life is Landmark, that people who haven't done landmark can't possibly get it.
> I participated because I was pretty sure I already 'got' it, and it turned out I did. But they even had me worried that I was missing something for a little while, until the "big reveal" of existentialism (they'd never call it that).
> I have seen people like the OP's sister who get sucked in really deeply and they don't even see the contradiction between the Landmark philosophy (the real philosophy not the business) and what they're doing. My advice is to find ways to show them that Landmark is not the only way. There's a million and one philosophy and self help books that are all essentially teaching landmark. Heck, Siddhartha (a great introduction to the life of the Buddha) is basically about a guy figuring out the core landmark philosophy. Basically find ways to talk about the ideas using a different script. Due to the short nature of landmark training people don't really have time to properly internalize the ideas, so they cling to these scripts about rackets and authenticity like a lifeline because they don't know how to actually apply those ideas without the words.
> TL;DR. I've done landmark. I HATE their business/marketing practices, but the product is rich in value. It's not a cult, it's a business.
> Advice for OP: Learn as much as you can about Landmark and what it teaches and find new ways (new language especially) to talk to your sister about those ideas and how they effect your relationships. (PM me and I'm absolutely happy to offer more detailed advice.)
> p


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## warlock07

> Does she want to get away because she is afraid to tell me more? Is she scared of my reaction? She tells me I am better off without her which suggests to me she is still hiding something that she thinks would hurt me more and cause more anger from me.


Most likely so. She already resents the control you have on the family(though she proved it repeatedly that she was not to be trusted with the responsibility). So she just does not want to face what she did and the consequences for those actions


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## JCD

I have rethought your post. If your wife thinks you have anger issues, your son is helping MOVE HER OUT underneath your very nose, and you even admit you MIGHT have anger issues

a). Your wife has brainwashed your kids (possible but not likely

Or

b). You have anger issues

Could be both but you aren't qualified to judge. Ask close friends, parents and co-workers.

If so get help.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## warlock07

His wife was the stable factor in the kids lives. So they probably trust her more(or have more attachment with her)

OP, can you clarify this a bit ? You don't seem too close to your eldest son either


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## idkwhat

yes you are both. you guys treat this like you are in a war with your spouse. how would like it if you were treated like a rat in a cage. and openly not trusting her. she will do what she does. if you love her then let her go. if you don't, cut bait and pay your child support. she is not chattel.


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## Kasler

idkwhat said:


> yes you are both. you guys treat this like you are in a war with your spouse. how would like it if you were treated like a rat in a cage. and openly not trusting her. she will do what she does. if you love her then let her go. if you don't, cut bait and pay your child support. she is not chattel.


Look, you've already gotten your thread solved. 

Why are you here? To be blunt, its not like you have much to offer with only the perspective of an unremorseful cheater as a base position, so don't please don't post on these people threads just for the hell of it while peddling such an affair enabling and apologist opinion. 

It helps no one.


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## DWM

JCD said:


> I have rethought your post. If your wife thinks you have anger issues, your son is helping MOVE HER OUT underneath your very nose, and you even admit you MIGHT have anger issues
> 
> a). Your wife has brainwashed your kids (possible but not likely
> 
> Or
> 
> b). You have anger issues
> 
> Could be both but you aren't qualified to judge. Ask close friends, parents and co-workers.
> 
> If so get help.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I am quite sure I have anger issues, but not so bad that I have used physical violence on anyone in my family, although I can probable be seen to be intimidating when I am angry. I am 6 ft 240 lbs and wife is 5 ft, 120 lbs so the default position is she cannot use or deflect any feared violence. That is a situation and as a consequence I know I never need to use violence and never have. She still fears that I might though.

I am seeing a psychologist today, in fact. this was arranged before my wife moved out, and she knew about it. Incidentally she also used a day she knew I was under great stress at work to choose to move out.


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## costa200

> how would like it if you were treated like a rat in a cage.


Would not cheat even then. If i was not happy then the relationship is over. Cheating is not an answer.


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## Remains

Can I ask you a few questions just to shed some light on to what I feel comes out strongly from your post? 

1. Did she give up work to be a stay at home mum? Did she look after the kids, home, etc? Was this a joint decision? 2. Do you share everything in your marriage? I.E. I know you say she is bad with money but did all money go into a central pot and then you jointly decided how to spend it? 3. What did she have control over? Or did you have equal control, responsibility and decision making?


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## DWM

Remains said:


> Can I ask you a few questions just to shed some light on to what I feel comes out strongly from your post?
> 
> 1. Did she give up work to be a stay at home mum? Did she look after the kids, home, etc? Was this a joint decision? 2. Do you share everything in your marriage? I.E. I know you say she is bad with money but did all money go into a central pot and then you jointly decided how to spend it? 3. What did she have control over? Or did you have equal control, responsibility and decision making?


That can get to be a complicated answer. Things evolved. She studied to be a teacher. She gave up on that almost before she started. Then did secretarial work. (this is when, I later was told that she had her first kissing affair). Then first son was born. she tried to go back to work but first son was incompatible with day care (effectively expelled from day care). Then she resolved to stay at home and I went along with it. It was tight at the time but manageable.

At this time she was still paying off her study loan (which I continued to pay off while she became a stay home mother. She then became involved with the voluntary breastfeeding support.). After 3 years later daughter was born and we moved to the USA for a year. She was on H4 visa and couldn't legally work, but she continued her involvement with the same breastfeeding support organisation. Afterwards we moved to Germany. She could have worked there if she wanted but soon we had two more sons and she stayed at home by default and continued the Breastfeeding work (unpaid but not many hours involvement). Our relationship became strained at this time and she had an EA some months before third son (4th child) was born. 

Then we moved to Italy for a year. I was jobshopping at the time (since the USA move) which pays well but short term. One can get layed off at any time and it was financially prudent to build up sufficient savings that could last months for extended out of work periods. I was out of work for 3 months at the end of the first German sojourn. I then found work in Italy and she moved down, and she stayed stay at home mother. 

Here is where she started stealing from our reserve accounts without my knowledge. She resented that I was earning so well and not letting her spend it all. She did recognise my wisdom particularly when we bought a fantastic house overlooking Galway bay in Ireland with more than half the value paid upfront and a mortgage for less than half the price. However we were pulling in different directions. I wanted to save more and she wanted to spend more. 

Another sojourn in Germany was followed by 6 months unemployed and then a full time job in Canada. The full time salary is nowhere near a jobshopping rate and supporting 2 mortgages it is just breaking even but we have to stay disciplined to a budget and account for sundry expenses. She resented me not getting her a second car, but I cycle to work a lot and its often on her way to drop me off and pick me up. She has a 2nd house for pete's sake, why is she complaining about a second car when she has full run of the one and only has to ferry me occasionally. 

She lived off my savings and overspent them in Ireland while she gained her Masters degree in translation and language skills. For that period we were really going financially backward supporting 2 mortages from my salary and savings, and in her free time she was often using eldest son (15 at the time) as a babysitter while she galavanted around town and her mother as a babysitter while she attended classes or visited me in Montreal.


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## 67flh

seems awful funny the times she had a EA she ended up pregnant! serious thought to a dna.


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## HabsFan

DWM said:


> As a parting shot she called the cops on me to get them to explain that in spite of her leaving she has the right (apparently in Quebec) to have full access to the (marital) house even as she has left


All provinces have similar provisions when dealing with the family home...regardless if she's on title or not. I'd recommend seaking legal advice.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JCD

As a tactical issue, maybe you should talk to lawyers in Ireland and South Africa to see which venue might be better for your divorce.


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## DWM

JCD said:


> As a tactical issue, maybe you should talk to lawyers in Ireland and South Africa to see which venue might be better for your divorce.


I already thought of that. I think South Africa would be best. I am unlikely to be held liable for any alimony there. Only child support.


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## DWM

Now here is something interesting. We have an antenuptual contract that means we do not have community of property and our estates are separate. 

I have just been reading it and the way I figure it, my WW cannot afford to divorce me. The house in Ireland, which is in her name, and thus part of her estate, has a net worth of more than all the assets that are in my name. The Antenuptual contract states that if her assets exceed the value of my assets, then she has to pay me half the difference on dissolution of the marriage. She would first have to sell the house to do that because she has no other means to raise that kind of cash.


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## DWM

Finding this out has put me in a very good mood. All the tactical power is shifting to me, and that strangely because I have less total assets. Liquidity is everything.


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## 67flh

dwm, have you thought of contacting canadian officals so she can't leave the country with the kids?


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## Kallan Pavithran

67flh said:


> seems awful funny the times she had a EA she ended up pregnant! serious thought to a dna.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## DWM

67flh said:


> dwm, have you thought of contacting canadian officals so she can't leave the country with the kids?


She might have to leave anyway as here work permit will no longer be valid when we divorce


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## DWM

She still isn't communicating directly with me. I am leaving messages through the children. We have to arrange to meet the real estate agent to value the house and possibly arrange to put it on the market. I also need her to return documents that she took when she did her moonlight flit. She promised them Wednesday and now its next week. 

What is she up to? I am sure she is lawyering up but she should have a better idea of what she wants to do by now.


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## workindad

Good luck- I agree with the other posters above- DNA test.

WD


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## Remains

DWM said:


> That can get to be a complicated answer. Things evolved. She studied to be a teacher. She gave up on that almost before she started. Then did secretarial work. (this is when, I later was told that she had her first kissing affair). Then first son was born. she tried to go back to work but first son was incompatible with day care (effectively expelled from day care). Then she resolved to stay at home and I went along with it. It was tight at the time but manageable.
> 
> At this time she was still paying off her study loan (which I continued to pay off while she became a stay home mother. She then became involved with the voluntary breastfeeding support.). After 3 years later daughter was born and we moved to the USA for a year. She was on H4 visa and couldn't legally work, but she continued her involvement with the same breastfeeding support organisation. Afterwards we moved to Germany. She could have worked there if she wanted but soon we had two more sons and she stayed at home by default and continued the Breastfeeding work (unpaid but not many hours involvement). Our relationship became strained at this time and she had an EA some months before third son (4th child) was born.
> 
> Then we moved to Italy for a year. I was jobshopping at the time (since the USA move) which pays well but short term. One can get layed off at any time and it was financially prudent to build up sufficient savings that could last months for extended out of work periods. I was out of work for 3 months at the end of the first German sojourn. I then found work in Italy and she moved down, and she stayed stay at home mother.
> 
> Here is where she started stealing from our reserve accounts without my knowledge. She resented that I was earning so well and not letting her spend it all. She did recognise my wisdom particularly when we bought a fantastic house overlooking Galway bay in Ireland with more than half the value paid upfront and a mortgage for less than half the price. However we were pulling in different directions. I wanted to save more and she wanted to spend more.
> 
> Another sojourn in Germany was followed by 6 months unemployed and then a full time job in Canada. The full time salary is nowhere near a jobshopping rate and supporting 2 mortgages it is just breaking even but we have to stay disciplined to a budget and account for sundry expenses. She resented me not getting her a second car, but I cycle to work a lot and its often on her way to drop me off and pick me up. She has a 2nd house for pete's sake, why is she complaining about a second car when she has full run of the one and only has to ferry me occasionally.
> 
> She lived off my savings and overspent them in Ireland while she gained her Masters degree in translation and language skills. For that period we were really going financially backward supporting 2 mortages from my salary and savings, and in her free time she was often using eldest son (15 at the time) as a babysitter while she galavanted around town and her mother as a babysitter while she attended classes or visited me in Montreal.


DWM, I asked those questions because I felt the controlling issue may be the thing that she is fighting against. Having someone else control your life can be, and is, extremely claustrophobic and in fighting against that, stupid decisions can be made.

However, I change my mind. From what you describe, she is a selfish player in your marriage. It seems she is wanting things, unnecessary things, for her, for the now, and not thinking about the future. Is when you rein her in on her frivolous acts and spending the point at which you are accused of being controlling? If this is so, she is manipulating her selfishness to become your controlling. It seems you have provided well, made a secure and comfortable life for you and your family, and she appreciates none of that. Her selfishness in spending, in your sacrifices, are seeping into other areas and turning into attachments to other males too. 

Don't feel betrayed by your children leaving with her, your eldest helping her, they probably find that very difficult too. And I think your eldest is old enough to be told how much his actions hurt you, however unaware he was of what he was doing...just helping his mum in his eyes? He also needs to be told how selfish and sneaky (stronger words needed here but I can't think of the right ones) his mum was to do her flit while you were out, no chance of coming home and interrupting her, and to not be told. That is the WRONG way to conduct yourself in any relationship, never mind a long marriage. With children. That was a horrendous thing she did. And she treated you like dirt in doing so.

I would also agree to getting the DNA tests done. And I would also be wondering if she is now in an affair...again...which is why she took so unkindly to the keylogger and why she has become insistent on the privacy issue.

I am glad the financial issues are seeming to be more in your favour and less in hers. It seems to me she does not deserve anything from you!


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## DWM

Its still hard. I have been torn between pleading with her to come back (although I know from reading here that that is the wrong thing to do) and wanting to "burn the b1tch".


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## sinnister

Three affairs that you know of.

I know you *think you love her, but asking her to come back is a huge mistake especially if she takes you up on it. You'll forever be the controlling husband who won't let her cheat.


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## rollhax

I rarely post here, but did a lot of reading when I found my wife having an EA with her ex. I have since nipped that in the bud and been doing the "trust but verify" routine. I feel you are 100% justified in monitoring your wife's actions, especially considering she had several affairs already.

I just wanted to point out two things.

1) Everybody is saying DNA test. Seriously. Do it. You've raised the kids, you're their dad/father, and more than likely always will be, but at the same time in some states/countries you may be able to use that fact against her during a divorce. You weren't very specific with dates, so when you say your wife had a "kissing" affair two years into marriage and then your son was born, this is just too much of a coincidence for people outside your situation to look past.

2) I see this in a ton of other threads, haven't seen it here. You mention a "kissing" affair. I'm surprised nobody has said it yet, but often times when a cheater says "just friends," they're more than just friends. If they "just kissed," there's a very high chance that they did MUCH more than that.

We all like to think our spouse is different. I thought mine was, until I found the text messages.

TL;DR - she's a cheater, she's lying to you about everything. DNA test. DNA test. DNA test. DNA test. One for each of your four kids. And then divorce, this woman isn't worth wasting your life on. 3 billion other women on this planet agree.


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## DWM

I know that there is never an excuse for cheating, but how much can it be said that I drove her to it, if she felt she could never confidently approach me and tell me anything. She probably thinks that I am the one who needs to change for her to ever consider reconciling.


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## 67flh

if she has to leave the countruy if her work permit is no longer valid, that's her f-ing problem,,,the kids stay with you.


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## DWM

Things might get interesting as she is going to counseling now. She wanted to go before, and I said "lets discuss it" which is what I wanted to do. I wanted a mutual discussion with a mutual decision and she misinterpreted that as me refusing to "allow her to go for IC" . I think it got so bad that any hesitation on letting her do what she wanted without reservation was interpreted as "controlling". All she needed to do was discuss and make her case and I go along with it most often. This worked even for things that many people consider controversial, like homeschooling the children.


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## bigtone128

DWM said:


> As a parting shot she called the cops on me to get them to explain that in spite of her leaving she has the right (apparently in Quebec) to have full access to the (marital) house even as she has left. She is staying with a friend of hers nearby and says I can have fair access to the kids. I brought them back to visit today. They prefer to stay with their mother for now. I feel betrayed by my eldest son who helped his mother pack and move stuff out.
> 
> P.S She classifies my "controlling" as emotional abuse. I have had a temper (I have never hit her) but I do shout loudly. She had a very domineering father (Stepfather as it turned out which she didn't know until after our wedding).
> 
> I am also looking for Opinions on the LANDMARK FORUM. Is it healthy for self development and relationships. It seems to have helped bring things to a head.


K similar thing happened to me - my STBXW had emotional affair - it took me a full year to get over it - part of that included open relationship - meaning I hd access to her emails, bank accounts, facebook account, I could edit her firends on fb if I was uncomfortable, etc. everything worked well UNTIL 3 years later - same crap started happening - she was going to work complaining about how "controlling" I was - of course not telling them what she did to warrant such behaviour - all her workmates thought I was this big thug - UNTIL I stepped away and they saw how I was not an abuser and her behaviour became clear. One of the most despictable parts was she tried to turn our son against me. All I can say is give it time - that son she tried to turn against me - is now fully on my side and sees what has happened clearly. Give it time - the truth always wins out. I feel your pain. Better off without her though.


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## tom67

bigtone128 said:


> K similar thing happened to me - my STBXW had emotional affair - it took me a full year to get over it - part of that included open relationship - meaning I hd access to her emails, bank accounts, facebook account, I could edit her firends on fb if I was uncomfortable, etc. everything worked well UNTIL 3 years later - same crap started happening - she was going to work complaining about how "controlling" I was - of course not telling them what she did to warrant such behaviour - all her workmates thought I was this big thug - UNTIL I stepped away and they saw how I was not an abuser and her behaviour became clear. One of the most despictable parts was she tried to turn our son against me. All I can say is give it time - that son she tried to turn against me - is now fully on my side and sees what has happened clearly. Give it time - the truth always wins out. I feel your pain. Better off without her though.


Yep my daughter knows the truth and has little respect for her mom!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bigtone128

DWM said:


> I know that there is never an excuse for cheating, but how much can it be said that I drove her to it, if she felt she could never confidently approach me and tell me anything. She probably thinks that I am the one who needs to change for her to ever consider reconciling.


Okay - if you do not get anything else from this forum get this....you are responsible for 50% of problems in marriage BUT 0% responsible for her having the affair - you did NOTHING for her to have affair. Trust me, you do not want to reconcile with this blameshifting, carpet sweeping conniving woman. I was where you were 6 months ago - there are plenty of women out there.


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## bigtone128

DWM said:


> All she needed to do was discuss and make her case and I go along with it most often. This worked even for things that many people consider controversial, like homeschooling the children.


Same here - never again - this is why she thought she could get away with it - you allowed her to do it in the past - you know my ex I allowed her every summer to go to our summer home for two months in another province while I worked and paid for things in another province. She said she needed two months off each year "to relax". Guess what? Once she had affair - she stayed with the affair partner ALL summer. She could not stay with me all those years but meets a guy and after only 2 months stays with him for summer. Do not go along with ANYTHING she says or does.


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## Remains

DWM said:


> Things might get interesting as she is going to counseling now. She wanted to go before, and I said "lets discuss it" which is what I wanted to do. I wanted a mutual discussion with a mutual decision and she misinterpreted that as me refusing to "allow her to go for IC" . I think it got so bad that any hesitation on letting her do what she wanted without reservation was interpreted as "controlling". All she needed to do was discuss and make her case and I go along with it most often. This worked even for things that many people consider controversial, like homeschooling the children.


It sounds like she had to ask if she could go to counselling. I would have thought that if someone wanted counselling, it would be because they thought they needed it. I think that an 'oh ok, if you feel you need it' and even a 'why do you think you need it' would be more appropriate. Why does the decision to want counselling turn into a mutual discussion, where you also have to agree it is needed too? I see this as an individual decision...unless of course it will jeapordise the roof over your head or the food in your mouths.

' All she needed to do was discuss and make her case and I go along with it most often.'

The above is a most telling statement.

The issue of control comes out strongest in your thread. It seems she has to ask for everything before she can get anything. And because you hold the purse strings then you have to ok everything she does...maybe I am wrong, but that is how it comes across.

I think having someone control your life and all you do is damaging, hugely, to any kind of relationship.

I would not suggest begging her back, but maybe if she does want to R, and you do too, putting a more equally controlling balance in place might be the key. Let her have a bit more autonomy in the everyday things. And then feeling trapped and needing escape in whatever form that takes won't be such a pressing urge for her.

I may have totally missed the mark here, but being overly controlling is a huge negative cloud in the life of others that you control. If I have missed the mark, then I don't know, but that comes across strongly.


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## DWM

Remains, I am trying to give a balanced account. Trying to find a reason. I know amongst those in this forum that there is no justification for even an emotional affair, but have I driven her there? What may be seen as controlling, (or was it really) developed slowly. 

Early in our marriage, we both worked. Her bank accounts were always getting overdrawn and I was always bailing her out, and I complained a lot about it. Her income was always overspent, and while I always had the greater income, I contributed solely to the house, the mortgate, the utilities, etc. She covered groceries and childrens clothes etc. 

She had not progressed in money discipline because as she has started working again, and added her own income to the household budget she got worse and spent far more than she added to her finances overdrawn. She stonewalled and I reacted with anger in an interrupted cycle. 

I had made a mistake at one stage while I was jobshopping. I had Higher than normal income for my professionm but the risk was higher and I wanted to set aside enough for downpayments on houses. This we managed but not without her hinderence. We used a savings account in her name to put some savings. This account was supposed to left alone and I tranferred a regular budgeted amount into her general current account. She regularly dipped into the savings account without my knowledge, until I belatedly saw statements showing over 10 000 pounds frittered away.


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## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby

Wow, I'm so sorry your going through all of this. Your wife is a serial cheater and her lies will never end. She will never stop cheating either.

My husband and I have full passwords to everything. We do not lock our cell phones either. My husband can look through my email, FB, message boards, ect at any given time. He can put a var in my car, keylogger if he needs to. I say nothing, but great things about my husband.

Protect yourself and make sure your wife doesn't try and screw you over in the divorce. She's done enough to you already. The kids will soon realize that you are not controlling and are a great father. 

My ex h is a serial cheater. He also committed fraud 2 times against me that I'm aware of. He is abusive, but nothing comes close to what your wife is telling everyone. My ex h told everyone I was the bad spouse when in fact it was him. You are not even close to being controlling, your actions were smart. The way a successful marriage should work.

Don't let your wife blame you for being the bad guy. What she's doing is blame shifting and it's wrong. This is not your fault, this is her fault for betraying you.


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## Remains

DWM said:


> Remains, I am trying to give a balanced account. Trying to find a reason. I know amongst those in this forum that there is no justification for even an emotional affair, but have I driven her there? What may be seen as controlling, (or was it really) developed slowly.
> 
> Early in our marriage, we both worked. Her bank accounts were always getting overdrawn and I was always bailing her out, and I complained a lot about it. Her income was always overspent, and while I always had the greater income, I contributed solely to the house, the mortgate, the utilities, etc. She covered groceries and childrens clothes etc.
> 
> She had not progressed in money discipline because as she has started working again, and added her own income to the household budget she got worse and spent far more than she added to her finances overdrawn. She stonewalled and I reacted with anger in an interrupted cycle.
> 
> I had made a mistake at one stage while I was jobshopping. I had Higher than normal income for my professionm but the risk was higher and I wanted to set aside enough for downpayments on houses. This we managed but not without her hinderence. We used a savings account in her name to put some savings. This account was supposed to left alone and I tranferred a regular budgeted amount into her general current account. She regularly dipped into the savings account without my knowledge, until I belatedly saw statements showing over 10 000 pounds frittered away.


In that case, I go back to my previous answer which is that she was not working towards the marriage, towards a secure future for you and your family. She wasn't working with you, she was working against you. She is behaving like your selfish teenage daughter, not your equal, your wife, and mother to your children. 

Her selfish acts in finance, selfish to you and your children, her own children!, have translated into selfish acts that seep right through her and through her life. Everything she does. It seems the 'controlling' card is played to manipulate you. If she had a shred of decency, and you being 'controlling' is a direct result of her actions (I really cannot believe she stole £10,000 from her own family. That is criminal. I threw my partner out after the final straw of me spending a year buying nothing and gettng our debts that he ran up to £3000 down to £300, he ran them back up to £900 in 10 days behind my back. I saw it that he stole from me and our children. A truly selfish act), then she would wish for you to be in control of those things she finds too tempting. E.G. I am controlled with money, but in order for my credit cards never to be used to run up debt, I cut them up. Therefore if I have no money, I have no money. The cards are not an option. Temptation is removed. She should welcome the removal of temptation. She should see her faults, be aware of them, know the damage they cause, and welcome your restraint.

She has no care for keeping temptation away and seems to actively seek it. If she wished for temptations to be removed, she would welcome your control over finances. 

If she had a shred of decency she would not have left you in the way she did. And treating the children as she did.

She does not care. She is selfish. Do not take her back!


----------



## DWM

Remains said:


> I....................
> 
> 
> If she had a shred of decency she would not have left you in the way she did. And treating the children as she did.
> 
> She does not care. She is selfish. Do not take her back!


I am feeling weak right now. If she showed a modicum of remorse and willingness to try right now I would take her back.


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## TDSC60

DWM said:


> I am feeling weak right now. If she showed a modicum of remorse and willingness to try right now I would take her back.


With her history you can not believe anything she says. Everything will be a smoke screen aimed at manipulating you into getting what she wants.

Stay strong. You will be much better of without her.


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## KanDo

DWM said:


> I am feeling weak right now. If she showed a modicum of remorse and willingness to try right now I would take her back.


STOP IT! You need to distance yourself from these emotions and behave rationally. I have no understanding of why you would wna to keep this woman; but, evem if you do, do not make a hasty decision to let her back in your life. You will regret it surely.

This woman is broken. She is narcasistic and childish. She needs MAJOR couseling if she is to grow. Your children are up there in years. I personally would drop these cheating woman in a New York minute.

No matter what you do, consult an attorney NOW!
Control your financial loses to the greatest extent possible by limiiting her access to any funds. (Please follow your attorney's advice on this matter. I am not cognizant of Canadian laws of divorce.).

It sounds like you have already disclosed far and wide. Make sure everyone knows the truth of what is going on.

I *Guarantee* way more happened than emitional affairs. read my story if you need a lift.
Good luck.


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## DWM

Thanks for the moral support Kando. 

One thing sowing seeds of doubt in my mind if she went all the way to full sexual PA was her voiced fears about STD's. Was that a smokescreen to keep me off the scent or was it a genuine barrier to her that might have stopped her?


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## Remains

Voiced fears? In what context? 

I always found that when my Wayward voiced anything that did not come from me, it was his guilty conscience at work....'you think I did it more times don't you, you will never get over it' in answer to me saying I would like a cup of tea 

(obviously not quite that random, it was on the lines of chat about our issues, but was so far removed from what I was asking or thinking that it would hit me sideways, may as well have been a cup of tea I was asking for....guilty!)


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## Remains

DWM said:


> I am feeling weak right now. If she showed a modicum of remorse and willingness to try right now I would take her back.


Takin her back is all well and good, but you have to think about what you would be going back to. What would you need from her in order to move on from this? What would she need to do for you to be satisfied and happy with her? What conditions are needed to be able to move on from here, you 2, a family, together, moving forward together, both on the same hymn sheet? 

Try and think of things you could do to take your mind away when feeling weak. And if she does want to come back, don't answer right away. Tell her you need a couple of days (at least) to think about it. Make sure your decision is based on reality and not just missing the certain things that we all miss when alone...a cuddle, a film together, doing things together...try and think practical and not emotional!


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## DWM

Perhaps I should have bounced this idea of this forum first. I have just e-mailed her boss and friend, the same one that suggested the landmark forum to her, about our separation and that she was the person I think precipitated it by getting my wife involved in Landmark Education. I told her boss/friend the same story I did in my opening post. 

I hope that this is all in the interests of exposing the whole background to that network of her friends (and her proxy family away from home) that she is not entirely blameless in this whole affair.

Anyway, Remains, she is more committed to separating than I am at the moment so any question of taking her back now is moot. I don't know if the fog applies to her situation, but she is so deep into the belief that she is the victim. My checking up on her was intolerable to her, but she could never fully be honest with me and demonstrate that transparency. Right now she is trying to use the children as a barrier. She is not prepared to give me equal custody at this time. She does allow me some time but always they sleep back with her friend's.


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## Remains

That is absolutely wrong! How can she not give you equal custody? You are an equal parent. What reasons is she using?

I'm sorry, but I find that mindblowing. They are NOT her possession. You are in the marital home, their home. If anyone should be main cater it is you. That is their home! Not this bloody friend's house! You must have some avenue that you can hammer her for doing this? Surely?


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## Remains

I don't think there was anything wrong with sending that email BTW. I could be wrong, but I don't see it would do harm. I would also point out the money she stole from her family over the years, her complete irresponsibility, particularly the £10,000, I guess you have mentioned the EA's, and don't ever mention the word controlling except in the context of 'while I was a higher earner, and she looking after the children, mostly there was no problem from me if she needed to spend money for the family. But sometimes sacrifices have to be made while aiming for the bigger picture. And while I made the sacrifices, she did the opposite. While I took care of our finances due to her showing she could not, I would be sacrificing for our future while she robbed from our future. And when I curbed her spending habits, she threw the CONTROLLING card at me. Thus, she didn't actually want to make a comfortable future for us. She just wanted to waste on frivolity, and I was called names and fought with when I wanted realistic spending!' ...or however you would put it. Don't write that word in any other context other than to point out her trying to manipulate due to not getting her own way. Otherwise you will fall into the trap of people wondering about your controlling nature and that wife was right. 

It seems to me she had you believing you were controlling too due to the way you wrote your posts. And it seems to me, correct me if I am wrong, that you only started to control more as a direct result of her behaviour.


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## OldWolf57

OK, let try this again,,,,, Read It Slowly So That Maybe this Time You Will Get It !!!!

As long as you are chasing, she is going to do what she wants.
By you asking to stay together she feels you are still whipped, so she is in control.

Now,, Pay Close Attention, for this may be the ONLY way to save your marriage and still have a pair with some self respect.

GO COMPLETELY DARK. Yeah it means not seeing the kids for a while, but until you man up to hardass status, she is going to rule thru them. Show her by acting as if your are saying "thank you for setting me free" that you are looking at it as a do over without wife and kids.
Start living as if you are single with only yourself to worry about.
Yes,, you read it right.
If the house is rented, MOVE !!! Tell her to come get the rest of the stuff bc you are moving somewhere she won't be able to get a key since she wants to call the cops.

Look her in the eye and say " F**K you, I want a D now. After all that you have cost me, you have the NERVE to pull this crap, I deserve better ". 
Say it mean it
You see, you are fighting a losing battle as long as she knows you want her back. The crap you listed as your wrongs don't even come close to her acting like this.

Oh, as for the VD fear, forgetaboutit. Do you REALLY think she was sneaking out just to go ?? You was out of the country, she could have just said she was going out. But she didn't do that, so what had her being sneaky ?? She didn't want you getting a friend to keep and eye on he thats why.

But like I said, your best chance is to just walk away like you never coming back. If the kids want to see you let THEM call you.
S long as she thinks she can hold them over your head, she will.

In fact, tell the s***k you young enough to have some more with a younger woman.

Hey, I NEVER said I was a nice guy when fighting. Hell most time.


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## DWM

Thanks for the reminder OldWolf. From reading TAM a bit I know you are right, but it seems so counter-intuitive and not what you read in the "normal" pop psychology sources. 

AT the moment she is definitely not sharing the kids equal time. I can wait I suppose for the kids to start settle into some calmer state, but I don't want her to establish a precedence of time sharing status quo either. 

I have spoken to a lawyer and he advises that I be proactive in handing over child support money. There is a guideline for this and I intend to hold strictly to that guideline but I know that will leave her very short on cashflow (compared to what she is used to). 

I don't want to volunteer any alimony, partly since I sacrificed 18 months and supporting 2 households on a single income for her to get her Masters degree and that should make her earning capacity quite good. Her share of the combined net assets give her a net worth of at least $250 000 so she is not poor. Its all about cash tied up.


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## DWM

Heres a plan someone suggested to get my kids to want to stay in the family home. Get an X-box and a few cool games. WW took the Wii and the PS3 with her. She may or may not have had ulterior motives in that but this is fighting fire with fire. 

It may backfire if I want to use the amount of time the kids spend on games and gameboys (which IMHO is excessive) against her in future. 

What ideas out there.


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## OldWolf57

How long does it take for a D to work its way thru the system ??
Man you are still NOT seeing.
18 15 12 10, these are not babies. These are kids that had her as the primary caregiver. That why #1 son is her secret keeper. They are more bonded to her than you. 
I don't think they like living all crammed in, but they will listen more to her than you now. Believe me, they remember the shouting you did, and you can't change that.
They don't understand how you tryed to keep her from throwing money away. Herhusband kids was the same way, and I pray your situation don't turn out like his. He got the family back together, but his last few posts was filled with how much it took out of him, and now we are praying he comes back to say he's OK.

Thats one of the reasons we TRY to help shorten the time of agony by advising to act strongly and quickly.


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## DWM

I have all my kids with me this weekend. Wife is trying effectively rationing time and dictating when they should be returned. (I haven't had anywhere near equal time yet), Someone is obviously bending her ear about how she is the "primary caregiver" and she interprets that as she takes the lion's share. but I don't know what that means in practical or legal terms since none of them are toddlers anymore. 

The 12 year old boy is taking the situation the hardest. He is sulky and moody and it tears me up seeing him like this. I started crying then he started crying and we had a mutual cry and hug together. 

Is it wise to keep them with me a day or more longer . I can take another day or two with work and if they all want to, simply keep them here a day or two longer. Wife doesn't want to discuss regular arrangements yet but tries to dictate the terms of visitation in this limbo period. She also seems determined to separate and is in the bosom of her toxic sisterhood that will feed here all kinds of bull about how much money I should be paying her etc etc.


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## Will_Kane

You need a lawyer to advise you regarding custody.


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## the guy

With regards to all this game station crap let your old lady plug them in.
If it was me I would want to spend what little time i had interacting with my kids, like playing games, going out doors, or even cooking.

The trick is find that one thing besides the gaming crap....which is hard these days but once you find that magic button that clicks with the kids your old lady can never take that way.


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## DWM

Well No 1 son (18 year old) is slowly coming around. He is old enough to understand some facts of life and I explained them to him. 

This does give me some incentive to spend quality time and interact more with my younger sons as as well, a thing I have left by default to their mother. What a fool I was. This weekend a small success. Youngest son finally managed to ride a bicycle. He needs much more practice of course but hes got the start and the confidence to carry on trying.

OldWolf, its difficult going dark on the wife when I have to haggle for time with my kids. I am trying to keep it strictly to topic. She is not ready to talk about regular arrangements. She is probably trying to arm up with all sorts of legal reasons to try and cut me down on my share of time with the kids.


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## OldWolf57

D, you do what you think is right. This is your life, and only you know what you need, to keep you sane at this point

As long as you can get thru to #1 son, that is progress. He's 18, its time to start talking to him like a young adult. Not all of the stuff between you and his mother, except about how you was trying to save for them.
As for having them, just tell her you WILL be having YOUR kids from friday to sunday evening EVERY week. Otherwise she is going to see a side of you that she has never seem before.
Explain you are trying to be civil, but her keeping your kids from you, is an EVIL and petty thing to do to someone who has put a roof over her head and food in her belly for all of these years.
Ask her if she could have lived in other countries and traveled the world like she has, if she was not married to you.
Ask her how many of her friends have been and done half the things she has.

You see, you have to put the sh!t right in her face. If shewants out, then get the hell out, but DO NOT use your kids in her selfish manipulations.`


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## OldWolf57

You should file in So Africa like you said, since she is trying to soak you.
And when she start talking about money, ask her when is she going to stop being a leach an start taking care of her self.
I think you said she got her masters. I would shame her so bad she would not ask me for anything.


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## walkonmars

DWM

Time to let her know you are NO chump OR a d1ckhead

Old wolf is right (he's passionate too ain't he!). Its petty and spiteful of her to treat your children like chattel to be used as pawns. Its war she wants - war she gets. Just leave the kids out of it for the love of god.


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## OldWolf57

WOM, you guys do better than I do for sane stuff. Its when they try to walk all over the person that love them when they was unlovable, that my sense of unfair tactics ignite.

DWM, you just do as you see fit dude, we are here for you when you need to vent.

Now I have to go to on demand to catch up on The Big Bang, and Two and a Half Men. Been doing a lot of volunteering.


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## bigtone128

DWM said:


> *Well No 1 son (18 year old) is slowly coming around. He is old enough to understand some facts of life and I explained them to him. *
> 
> OldWolf, its difficult going dark on the wife when I have to haggle for time with my kids. I am trying to keep it strictly to topic. *She is not ready to talk about regular arrangements. She is probably trying to arm up with all sorts of legal reasons to try and cut me down on my share of time with the kids*.


I was told not to worry when my ex was trying (she is still trying) to turn my kids against me. Kids would eventually see the truth. I did not believe it at the time but sure enough it is months later and both my boys see what she did and will be nice to her (because she is their mother) but they see what she did and see how she broke up the family and are fully in my corner. So do not worry about the kids - they will come around.

But it is hard to communicate - she always keeps things hidden between her and kids so it is difficult to plan holidays and such but that's her deal not mine. Frankly, there is no family anymore - I tried to hang on to a sense of family but there is just no way - so if she doesn't care - neither do I....there is just my relationship with my kids period. 

Sadly for her, in our summer home there is a big sign saying "families are forever" over our kitchen archway - she will have to see that at Christmas time. She's such a hypocrite.


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## DWM

I have now toted up the amount of money stolen from the Irish account in sundry ATM withdrawals. To recap the Irish account is a buffer where mortgage and insurances are paid. The rental income doesn't cover the mortgate and leaves a monthly shortfall of around $700. Since February she has taken out around $1500. 

Her own earnings at her part time jobs can be as much as $1000 a month (but it is irregular) and I handed over the groceries clothing and sundries budget of $1800 p.m. to her. Now her own earnings were supposed cover the $700 shortfall. She contributed nothing. I am a chump as I should have simply deducted the $700 from the budget and not let her defaulting on our financial arrangement slide. This seems to have fueled her sense of entitlement and still she wanted more. Even with her own income she felt the need to steal more from our other account without me knowing. During the marriage she also had other accounts the built up a healthy balance from my jobshopping contributions and some of her freelance translation work, and those have been depleted completly now. 

I think I mentioned before that the mortgage, utilities and even the phone she used for one of her jobs etc were all covered and not included in her groceries budget. How then could she not come out on between $2200 and $2800 a month? 

Now when she asks for child support money I should either deduct the $700 for her house (the house in Ireland is in her name but the mortgage is joint) and the or force her to pay into that account regularly. I have done the child support calculation and even if she has full custody of all the kids, she will get no more than what I have already been regularly handing over to her (and that was with having a roof over her head and utilities provided). 

She is in for a rude awakening I think, when she finds out how little money she can actuall extort from me, and she thinks she can live in subsidised "low income" housing, but I don't think that will fly when they know she owns property in Ireland that was bought for over half a million euro. (around $676 000 at todays exchange rate). 

I have to be ready for any underhand trick she wants to pull. She is getting counsel from her toxic sisterhood and I am pretty sure she has got a lawyer involved. I guess I have to wait and see. What is my best action here?


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## DWM

Well #1 son (18) is going to move back home. He cannot practice his guitar in wife's friends apartment. Well that is a practical reason, but maybe also he sees that she is no angel in this.


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## OldWolf57

D, when he moves back, the older ones may just hassle her enough for her to let them come back too.
As for the house in Ireland, I would see about taking my name off the mortg.

And the next time you talk to her, ask her why the family had to suffer for 18mo's if she is not going to use the masters degree to earn more. Seems just more money she threw away on a whim.

My man, this is what you have to realize " sometime you have to be willing to lose your marriage to save it ".
That mean you take the decision out of her hand whether you stay together or not by filing first, and asking for primary custody.


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## happyman64

DWM said:


> Well #1 son (18) is going to move back home. He cannot practice his guitar in wife's friends apartment. Well that is a practical reason, but maybe also he sees that she is no angel in this.


One down and a few more to follow......


Keep up the work and the pressure.

And nail your wife legally so her sense of entitlement gets curbed.


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## DWM

Another small victory. I am now in sole control of all the cash on hand. I have managed to move the bulk of cash that I had previously put into the joint account in Ireland (getting killed on exchange rates in the process) Now that can increase the pressure since at least $700 a month has to be put into it to service the mortgage on her house in Ireland. There is no more than 2 months buffer there now. I didn't mention it before in case she is reading this forum and got her mother (with her power of attorney) to stop it somehow; but the transaction is complete now.


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## tom67

DWM said:


> Another small victory. I am now in sole control of all the cash on hand. I have managed to move the bulk of cash that I had previously put into the joint account in Ireland (getting killed on exchange rates in the process) Now that can increase the pressure since at least $700 a month has to be put into it to service the mortgage on her house in Ireland. There is no more than 2 months buffer there now. I didn't mention it before in case she is reading this forum and got her mother (with her power of attorney) to stop it somehow; but the transaction is complete now.


:smthumbup:


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## DWM

The bad news for both of us now is that the house in Ireland has effectively lost half its value over the last 4 years. This means its net value is almost nothing after taking the value of the mortgage off, so now we sit with only my assets in Canada to divide out. I consulted a financial planner thinks that I can buy her out of any share in our house here with an RRSP. That means she has guaranteed retirement savings and I get tax relief from paying it.


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## ShootMePlz!

Even though the Ireland house lost half it value.... you should be able to use the $$$ loss to lower the overall asset total to divide.


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## DWM

ShootMePlz! said:


> Even though the Ireland house lost half it value.... you should be able to use the $$$ loss to lower the overall asset total to divide.


That goes without saying, but it means that if it were at its original value then her assets (in her name) are equal to mine (in my name) and we could simply part with her keeping hers and me keeping mine and I would also be free of the millstone of servicing her mortgage. Now her assets are almost worthless (net of mortgage). You've heard of gearing. (I think you Americans call it leverage). It works in reverse and double whammies you. and that means she has a claim to half the value of my assets, which she wouldn't have had if her house had any value.


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## Shaggy

Then flip it up. Offer to buy the house in Ireland from her at its current value. She won't go for it, but you can use that to drive its value up.


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## DWM

Shaggy said:


> Then flip it up. Offer to buy the house in Ireland from her at its current value. She won't go for it, but you can use that to drive its value up.


That option is already in one of my scenario's. We'd probably have to sell the house in Quebec to divide out its net worth then. She could probably clear $200k that way in cash. Considering the current political climate in Quebec and economic prospects that is probably not a bad idea but I need to hang on to my job here because jobs are scarse right now in my field. (Aeronautical engineering). 

Now its the end of the month and she will probably need to come and ask for money. She hasn't tried to contact me for anything so far so I am wondering how best to handle the situation. 

A lawyer has suggested I be proactive and give her her due as calculated on the child support guidelines for Quebec. I could wait for her to broach the subject. When she does I could also point out the money she has already taken in advance from the Irish Bank and deduct that from her child support due. 

btw, The friend who is putting her and the kids up has a husband who works in the same building I do. When I see him I will probably feel like hitting him for interfering in my family in that destructive manner. They could have come and helped by being a third party to help start a discussion and then planned her exit or some other alternative, MC or agree separation terms, etc.


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## DWM

Its now a new month and my deserting wife hasn't asked for any money yet. I am avoiding contact with her so I don't want to bring up the topic. In any event I have done the calculation of the child support due her (according to the tables and guidelines and me making the extrapolating assumption that she can work full time at minimum wage and we share custody at a40% 60% ratio ) and I get a figure of half what her agreed budget used to be. This figure is also a mere $20 more than the money she already withdrew from the Irish bank. 

I am not sure what her lawyer or her toxic sisterhood has conjured into her head but one of the things I think she believes from our brief conversations is that "in the interests of the children" I could be forced out of my house and she and the children could live there. 

For that eventuality I am considering a nuclear option of resigning my job, whereupon my work permit (and the rest of the families residence permits) expires and we have 30 days to leave Canada. 

Any comments?


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## walkonmars

Sounds extreme. Do you really want to cast your children into poverty?


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## DWM

walkonmars said:


> Sounds extreme. Do you really want to cast your children into poverty?



It won't be poverty. There is enough to live on well for several years. Till even the youngest is adult. I would go back to job shopping in Europe. It may take months to find a new job but there is no danger of poverty for the kids. 

Besides I am still concerned about Quebec politics and the separatists party is gaining momentum which will depress the house prices here. I think it may actually be a good time to get out. I do not want to lose a packet on two houses.


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## turnera

How come the kids stay with her?


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## DWM

She took them with her when she left. Packed up most of their clothes and moved. Oldest son (18) initially went with her too, but he didn't then have the whole story. He saw we were fighting and that I was spying on her with a keylogger which he disagreed with. He might still disagree with that but I told him more of our history so that he might form a more balanced opinion. Either he is coming around somewhat or he has more practical reasons, but he is moving back with me. 

My daugher is very close to her school at the moment and she is bone idle so she is happy there. The two youngest (10 and 12) still need constant supervision so for practical reasons they are probably better off with their mother during the week. She works part time from home on the telephone. I had them with me last weekend and I expect to have them again this weekend. 

The one thing that concerns me is the amount of video games the youngest two play. Virtually all day, and if not games, then you tube about games and tactics. They are supposed to be homeschooled (their mother's idea) but her homeschooling means leaving them to do what they want and taking them to a homeschooling commune twice a week.


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## Chris Taylor

DWM said:


> btw, The friend who is putting her and the kids up has a husband who works in the same building I do. When I see him I will probably feel like hitting him for interfering in my family in that destructive manner. They could have come and helped by being a third party to help start a discussion and then planned her exit or some other alternative, MC or agree separation terms, etc.


No, you show him that you are in control of yourself, that you are handling the situation well and are in a good mood. It will all get back to your wife.


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## turnera

DWM said:


> My daugher is very close to her school at the moment and she is bone idle so she is happy there. The two youngest (10 and 12) still need constant supervision so for practical reasons they are probably better off with their mother during the week. She works part time from home on the telephone. I had them with me last weekend and I expect to have them again this weekend.


Check with your lawyer. You can probably get the homeschooling stopped so that they get a decent education. You can probably get them tested and, if not up to speed, the judge will order them changed to public school.


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## DWM

Chris Taylor said:


> No, you show him that you are in control of yourself, that you are handling the situation well and are in a good mood. It will all get back to your wife.


Check. Good advice, thanks. He himself now is probably already pissed that he doesn't have his wife to himself and has to share her attentions with my leeching wife. My WW will also have to pick up her housekeeping standards if she is to have a smooth time with her friend. She runs a tight ship and my wife just could never see where the grime was if it jumped up and bit her.


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## DWM

No.1 son has now moved his stuff back home. He took a hell of a lot with him that filled the back of the minivan. That must have really taken a chunk out of WW's day and plans to have to have to take an extra trip just for his stuff.


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## happyman64

DWM said:


> No.1 son has now moved his stuff back home. He took a hell of a lot with him that filled the back of the minivan. That must have really taken a chunk out of WW's day and plans to have to have to take an extra trip just for his stuff.


Step 1 complete.

Now keep moving forward. 

Do not be easy with the money.

Work with your attorney to force child time and cancel home schooling.


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## Madman1

Its terrible of your wife to use the kids this way.


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## DWM

Well the waiting on her is over. She filed for divorce and is asking for full custody of the three youngest. She is also asking that I pay spousal support and continue paying for the house in Ireland in the interim???? wtf?


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## happyman64

I think it is time you showed her reality.

I hear Germany is nice in the Winter.......

WHat are you going to do?


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## turnera

Hope you have the meanest lawyer money can buy. He will be worth it, because without him, you'll end up paying ten times more in all the crap she's gonna get from you.


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## DWM

I suppose this thread now fits best in the going through divorce/separation forum. She has obviously checked out completely. The law is not on my side to make her feel the consequences severely. I am being advised to pay her to sustain her and the children in the meantime.


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## OldWolf57

You know what I love ?? You have the means !!!!
RESIGN !!!!
Let the sisterhood see its different going after someone with MEANS.
You already see which way the political wind is blowing. So looking at it from an investment POV, selling up and leaving is very wise.

With you leaving, she has to also. NO MORE sisterhood, HELLO reality.
No D with you moving out of the country. And who say you have to stay in one place more than 6 mos.
She goes back to Ireland, you where ever you want.
You can arrange an account to desperse funds for the kids monthly, but NOT a dime for her.

DWM, if there was more guys situated like you, a mess of these ws would not be so hottie tottie about the way they dissed a BS.


----------



## OldWolf57

Oh, you may be able to freelance, or consult with companies you have worked for in the past. 
Networking old and new contacts, is still best.


----------



## DWM

Old wolf, I am tempted but as my lawyer told me, extreme measures like that might incur extreme counters from the courts. 

The first hurdle is 20th November when I have to answer her petition for interim measures, where she is asking for the world and the moon. She expects that I should pay her budget amount as before and also continue paying for the mortgage of the Irish house as well as our house here?


----------



## OldWolf57

D, you are NOT a citizen of Canada. You have traveled the world, so use that knowledge. Your lawyer is not up on international stuff as you are. He is national.

Look at it this way. The US and Canada are close, but if I killed someone and ran to Canada, they would NOT deport me if the US was seeking execution.
Now how much expense are they going to waste trying to bring you back for a D hearing ??


----------



## DWM

The problem, OldWolf, is that most of my assets are here, and I don't want to abandon my kids. She stole off with their passports when she left and took a good few of my own documents as well. 

Incidentally it also appears that she has diverted to rent income for the Ireland house into another account. She might be using my mother in law to facilitate this. The rent has not come in so the Account in Ireland is losing money fast. The mortgage is joint but the house is in her name.


----------



## Shaggy

Your lawyer sounds like a process lawyer - he goes about the paper work and makes sure it follows the rules.

He isn't the lawyer you want.

You want the lawyer who ask "what do you want" and then sets out a strategy to get it.

You're lawyer would have had "OJ plead guilty and hope for a lessor sentence".


----------



## turnera

No kidding! Find a decent lawyer! You're about to lose EVERYTHING.


----------



## DWM

well the lawyer is thinking short and long term. the interim measures (child support etc) comes up before a judge in 3 weeks. the lawyer thinks I should at least show the Judge that I am being reasonable in the short term.

Ultimately I have to split the assets with her. so it might ease the transition and the lawyer is trying to work it so that the kids stay in my house permanently and she comes to them during the day and leaves at night.


----------



## OldWolf57

Seeing as you have assets internatonally, and she is defruding, you need a lawyer that can go after her for that. That Ireland house is marital asset, not her private cash cow. Tell her you will not pay the mortg, so she better make some arrangements. Sure it may drop your score, but that can be fixed in 6 months. That I KNOW for a FACT.

Most ppl make the mistake that assets are reflections of their life and tie into them. NOT!!!
They are investment TOOLS of YOURS that should be used as such.
If you do find that piece of R.E. that you want to settle on, then protect as such. Otherwise, its a tool.


----------



## DWM

I am a bit screwed in respect of the mortgage in Ireland. The house is in her name, but the mortgage is joint. I have just spoken to a lawyer in Ireland and the fact is that we are joint and severally liable for that mortgage. I have to keep paying for it until a final settlement, which probably means that she will have to sell it. Unless she gets a fantastic job in the meantime she will never qualify for that Mortgage on her own. I can try and flip it into my name (very little cost involved there mayby 1000 euro)

I can try to get the lawyer here to make my further payments to it deductable from our final settlement. 

Also it seems that I am in a situation where we are both 180ing each other. She is dealing only with the lawyer and doesn't want to mediate or try and settle face to face. Is this ultimately productive? Should I make any overtures?


----------



## turnera

Why would you deal with her? She FIRED YOU. She IS NOT YOUR FRIEND. Let your lawyer do his job.


----------



## DWM

WE also have a sort of mexican standoff now. STBXW timed her exit badly because she couldn't take all the kids passports because not all of them were in the house. 

Two were in the process of being renewed and they arrived in the post today from the Embassy. So Now I have 2 passports and STBXW has two. That suites me for the moment since she cannot go anywhere with the kids without my say so and neither can I without her's.


----------



## turnera

Works for me.


----------



## Chaparral

Have you had a PI check to see if she has "started" dating someone?

Her boss or someone at the cult comes to mind.


----------



## OldWolf57

Look, you pay the lawyer to do what you want !!!
Now lets see. The Ireland house is underwater. The rent don't cover the mortg. The house is in her name.
So what if she lose the house ???
It costing you money NOW !!!

Have your lawyer call the mortg. holder and TELL them you are D/ing your wife, and will NOT make another payment.

You DON'T let fico or beacon or any other reporting agency control your life. YOU MAKE MONEY MAN !! 

Your wife is playing HARDBALL, and you are using a plastic bat.

I don't much like the Donald, but learned a valuable lesson from him.
" He who owe has the power ". He threatened to file B if the investors did'nt give him more money to finish the Atlantic City deal.
He got it.


----------



## DWM

I'd appreciate some feedback on my next rash action. So far I have been taking the kids on the weekend starting on Friday evenings. This weekend STBXW accepts an invitation for the kids to attend a birthday party on Saturday for a kid of (what I think is ) the head of the toxic sisterhood. Her plan is that she takes them to the party and I get the kids only on Saturday afternoon (or she flippantly suggests I take them to the party). 

After thinking a while I then say that I will take them to the party in the heart of the toxic sisterhood and I will pick the kids up on Friday evening as usual so I can be with them the whole weekend. I just have to endure a couple of hours with the toxic sisterhood. Now I have a few things to say to the toxic sisterhood when I am there but some guidance would be appreciated.


----------



## DWM

chapparal said:


> Have you had a PI check to see if she has "started" dating someone?
> 
> Her boss or someone at the cult comes to mind.


I am not sure that I care to know anymore. It certainly fits her pattern. Everytime she has layed down ultimatums, got progressively more stubborn and uncompromising and threatened to leave, was when she had (or thought she had) a boyfriend in the wings to catch her emotionally.


----------



## turnera

Well, I can be pretty stubborn when it comes to people who have HARMED my marriage, so I might relish the opportunity to have a few words with the sisterhood while I'm there. In fact, I'd look forward to it.


----------



## tom67

turnera said:


> Well, I can be pretty stubborn when it comes to people who have HARMED my marriage, so I might relish the opportunity to have a few words with the sisterhood while I'm there. In fact, I'd look forward to it.


Heck yea I put on a happy face and talk with some of the husbands about what's going on with you. Show those b#tches you are moving on:FIREdevil:


----------



## walkonmars

I recommend you have no interactions with the evil cabal. It'll only escalate and place your children in the middle. A bad position for you legally - you lose whatever high moral ground you hold too. 

(you lose it in the sense that witnesses will say you behaved erratically and without regard for all children present. Remember that they aren't casual disinterested witnesses)

In fact be wary of being drawn into an argument by them.


----------



## turnera

tom67 said:


> Heck yea I put on a happy face and talk with some of the husbands about what's going on with you. Show those b#tches you are moving on:FIREdevil:


 OMG, yes! Seek out those women's husbands and let them know what role they all played. Oughta make for some interesting scenes that night.


----------



## turnera

walkonmars said:


> I recommend you have no interactions with the evil cabal. It'll only escalate and place your children in the middle. A bad position for you legally - you lose whatever high moral ground you hold too.
> 
> (you lose it in the sense that witnesses will say you behaved erratically and without regard for all children present. Remember that they aren't casual disinterested witnesses)
> 
> In fact be wary of being drawn into an argument by them.


 I'm sure he's smart enough not to start arguments.


----------



## Louise7

walkonmars said:


> I recommend you have no interactions with the evil cabal. It'll only escalate and place your children in the middle. A bad position for you legally - you lose whatever high moral ground you hold too.
> 
> (you lose it in the sense that witnesses will say you behaved erratically and without regard for all children present. Remember that they aren't casual disinterested witnesses)
> 
> In fact be wary of being drawn into an argument by them.


I think you are right. 

To the OP - My plan would be to turn up and paint on a smile and say *not one word out of place.* Aim for your face to ache with all that smiling and all the 'good to see you,' stuff. Why? Because causing a problem, especially in front of your children and theirs will play into her hands. For the couple of hours you are there, you are a model father and a really nice guy. 

When you are alone later, once your kids are asleep, you are then permitted to beat hell out of the nearest pillow and imagine it's the sisterhood. Rinse and repeat until you feel better.


----------



## DWM

turnera said:


> OMG, yes! Seek out those women's husbands and let them know what role they all played. Oughta make for some interesting scenes that night.


The head of the sisterhood is a freshly divorced woman (who may have been genuinely badly treated, barred from seeing her own parents and family during the marriage) so she has an axe to grind.


----------



## Louise7

DWM said:


> The head of the sisterhood is a freshly divorced woman (who may have been genuinely badly treated, barred from seeing her own parents and family during the marriage) so she has an axe to grind.



Maybe but it's her axe and she doesn't need to bury it in your back.


----------



## DWM

So now it gets interesting. STBXW now says that she will be at the party too. Since it is head toxic's party and STBXW is her friend head toxic wants STBXW there too. 

How best to play that now?


----------



## turnera

Go and have the BEST TIME EVER.


----------



## walkonmars

They talked it over. They may try to goad you by belittling you as they talk about you when you are within earshot.

Go. Dont engage except with your kids. Turn a blind eye. Be deaf to them.


----------



## turnera

The best revenge is having a better life than them. And letting them see it. Hit on a bunch of women there.


----------



## Acabado

Go there dressed to kill.


----------



## Chaparral

turnera said:


> The best revenge is having a better life than them. And letting them see it. Hit on a bunch of women there.


Don't overtly flirt, be cool and really interested and give plenty of attention. Be exceptionately nice to everone including the recently divorced lady. Be especially interested and sympathetic in her bad relationship and how awful it was. Be a gentleman and show what you are really made of.

You might drop a few hints about having to go back to Ireland for a job etc. and how you will all have to end upleaving Canada.


----------



## turnera

chapparal said:


> Don't overtly flirt, be cool and really interested and give plenty of attention. Be exceptionately nice to everone including the recently divorced lady. Be especially interested and sympathetic in her bad relationship and how awful it was. Be a gentleman and show what you are really made of.
> 
> You might drop a few hints about having to go back to Ireland for a job etc. and how you will all have to end upleaving Canada.


 In other words, let her see you HAVING A GREAT TIME! (despite what she's done to you)


----------



## Chaparral

turnera said:


> In other words, let her see you HAVING A GREAT TIME! (despite what she's done to you)


I also meant to befriend the divorcee and turn her. No disrespect to women but you might find some attraction from the other women there. Of course they may gang up on you unless you go in with full confidence. Do not dis you wife either, just treat her as someone you used to know.


----------



## DWM

chapparal said:


> I also meant to befriend the divorcee and turn her. No disrespect to women but you might find some attraction from the other women there. Of course they may gang up on you unless you go in with full confidence. Do not dis you wife either, just treat her as someone you used to know.


Well the divorcee is hot so its worth a shot.


----------



## walkonmars

DWM said:


> Well the divorcee is hot so its worth a shot.


LOL
You could have some fun and drive a wedge between them.

"I never believed what my wife said about you!"


----------



## tom67

DWM said:


> Well the divorcee is hot so its worth a shot.


Doesn't make you a bad guy in fact that would be pretty funny lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## DWM

chapparal said:


> Don't overtly flirt, be cool and really interested and give plenty of attention. Be exceptionately nice to everone including the recently divorced lady. Be especially interested and sympathetic in her bad relationship and how awful it was. Be a gentleman and show what you are really made of.
> 
> You might drop a few hints about having to go back to Ireland for a job etc. and how you will all have to end upleaving Canada.


It will have to be cool. I have never had the pick up skills to successfully flirt with women. Its probably why i had too much invested in this relationship. Its something I will have to start from scratch with.


----------



## DWM

chapparal said:


> .............. Do not dis you wife either, just treat her as someone you used to know.


I might want to make them aware of her former affairs, lying and stealing and bad money handling, so they understand my "reported" actions better.


----------



## OldWolf57

D, you go and be approachable, but not looking to suck up.

YOU are a successful mature man, so you act like it.
Also, I like Chaps idea about dropping hinks about you having to leave the country for job reasons.

But if attacked, just tell the bi**h D, that your wife was able to do and go where ever she wanted. The only problem was her not being responsible with money.

Also, you can use this to see if she has some lil liking for a certain man there.
But they may try to make you feel uncomfortable. The veriables are many, so just play it cool.


----------



## DWM

Well it all happened and pretty anticlimactic. Head toxic sister was actually behaving very pleasant (but what do I know about 2 faced females now). I didn't broach any subject although it was obvious there was a huge elephant in the room. The only thing I mentioned to STBXW was that my mother was gravely ill in hospital with a bowel infection and suggested to her it was prompted by stress resulting from her recent actions. She seemed quite upset about that. This was also news to her that surprised here as she said she had spoken to my sister yesterday and she didn't tell her that news. 

Some people seemed to be avoiding me initially, but eventually I had some form of conversation with most of them. I had fun watching the kids enjoy themselves. They had some reptile man showing them snakes, gecko's turtles and so on and in the end the kids hit a pinata. At the end of the party STBXW left without even being cordial and saying goodbye.

One thing I noticed was that most of the women were smartly dressed or semi smart, faces made up and generally looking good while STB was frumpy wearing loose fitting jeans and a baggy pullover. She hadn't made much of an effort to make herself look good. I wondered to myself what I ever saw in her.


----------



## OldWolf57

Ah man, she is pissed.
She came in her mom jeans, and the sisterhood cheated on her.
hahahahaha. 
D, I luv that.


----------



## DWM

OldWolf57 said:


> Ah man, she is pissed.
> She came in her mom jeans, and the sisterhood cheated on her.
> hahahahaha.
> D, I luv that.


The state of her current dress sense does make me think that she is not now in the midst of a new affair or she would be dressing smarter. She just wants out of the marriage (and previously only wanted to stay in on her own terms)

She has shown a spiteful nature in the divorce petition. She claimed I drank to excess and wants the court to stipulate that I not drink when I have the children. (I only drink a couple of beers a night, never hard liquor) and I never get drunk and alcohol makes me more mellow. She knows all that so what is her reason for putting that in her petition?

Another spiteful act of hers was when she left she took (or more likey threw away) our collection of sex toys. It is interesting but I don't know how to interpret that action.

Also a question to the hardball players. Of what value or utility is my collection of naked and erotic photos and videos of her?


----------



## Ovid

DWM said:


> It will have to be cool. I have never had the pick up skills to successfully flirt with women. Its probably why i had too much invested in this relationship. Its something I will have to start from scratch with.


I used to get dates sitting at a bus stop. Actually got hired for a jeans ad that way too. I still invested everything into my marriage. It's what you're supposed to do. You didn't go to far. She let you down.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Ovid

DWM said:


> The state of her current dress sense does make me think that she is not now in the midst of a new affair or she would be dressing smarter. She just wants out of the marriage (and previously only wanted to stay in on her own terms)
> 
> She has shown a spiteful nature in the divorce petition. She claimed I drank to excess and wants the court to stipulate that I not drink when I have the children. (I only drink a couple of beers a night, never hard liquor) and I never get drunk and alcohol makes me more mellow. She knows all that so what is her reason for putting that in her petition?
> 
> Another spiteful act of hers was when she left she took (or more likey threw away) our collection of sex toys. It is interesting but I don't know how to interpret that action.
> 
> Also a question to the hardball players. Of what value or utility is my collection of naked and erotic photos and videos of her?


She has completely rewritten history and is setting up for a nasty fight. You are now the enemy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## happyman64

DWM said:


> The state of her current dress sense does make me think that she is not now in the midst of a new affair or she would be dressing smarter. She just wants out of the marriage (and previously only wanted to stay in on her own terms)
> 
> She has shown a spiteful nature in the divorce petition. She claimed I drank to excess and wants the court to stipulate that I not drink when I have the children. (I only drink a couple of beers a night, never hard liquor) and I never get drunk and alcohol makes me more mellow. She knows all that so what is her reason for putting that in her petition?
> 
> Another spiteful act of hers was when she left she took (or more likey threw away) our collection of sex toys. It is interesting but I don't know how to interpret that action.
> 
> Also a question to the hardball players. Of what value or utility is my collection of naked and erotic photos and videos of her?


She wrote about alcohol in the divorce petition knowing you have sex videos of the two of you together.

Not only is your STBXW very vindictive she is very dumb.

I truly hope none of those videos get in the hands of the toxic sisterhood. 

If only your wife looked like Paris Hilton or Kim Kardashian then you would not have to worry about finding additional income from your wife to support the home in Ireland....
:rofl:


----------



## DWM

happyman64 said:


> She wrote about alcohol in the divorce petition knowing you have sex videos of the two of you together.
> 
> Not only is your STBXW very vindictive she is very dumb.
> 
> I truly hope none of those videos get in the hands of the toxic sisterhood.
> 
> If only your wife looked like Paris Hilton or Kim Kardashian then you would not have to worry about finding additional income from your wife to support the home in Ireland....
> :rofl:


Explain please. How would she make use of them? maybe explain in a PM in case she or the sisterhood is reading here?

Incidentally at the party STBXW got to see an improved me, 8 kg lighter than when she left (mainly due to the stress I guess)


----------



## happyman64

DWM said:


> Explain please. How would she make use of them? maybe explain in a PM in case she or the sisterhood is reading here?
> 
> Incidentally at the party STBXW got to see an improved me, 8 kg lighter than when she left (mainly due to the stress I guess)


Good. Keep Improving and showing the new you off.

All I meant by the videos was that you could use them as leverage with the Toxic sisterhood.

If your wife has every intention of taking you to the cleaners you could mention that you will use the videos financially to offset the loss in Ireland.

Just trying to be creative for you. 

Sometimes you have to fight fire with fire.


----------



## DWM

happyman64 said:


> Good. Keep Improving and showing the new you off.
> 
> All I meant by the videos was that you could use them as leverage with the Toxic sisterhood.
> 
> If your wife has every intention of taking you to the cleaners you could mention that you will use the videos financially to offset the loss in Ireland.
> 
> Just trying to be creative for you.
> 
> Sometimes you have to fight fire with fire.


I don't think it will achieve much with the toxic sisterhood other then the make myself look vindictive by releasing them. 

What is recently interesting is that she contacted one of my sisters, trying to tell here that there is more to the story than what I am telling my family. (I don't think she has any idea what I have told them so I guess she is guessing). She was trying to justify her act of desertion to be in the best interests of the children and she is convinced she did the right thing. Apparently she wasn't getting the affirmation she was seeking from my sister and signed off as soon as the conversation deviated from her own script.


----------



## happyman64

DWM said:


> I don't think it will achieve much with the toxic sisterhood other then the make myself look vindictive by releasing them.
> 
> What is recently interesting is that she contacted one of my sisters, trying to tell here that there is more to the story than what I am telling my family. (I don't think she has any idea what I have told them so I guess she is guessing). She was trying to justify her act of desertion to be in the best interests of the children and she is convinced she did the right thing. Apparently she wasn't getting the affirmation she was seeking from my sister and signed off as soon as the conversation deviated from her own script.


Typical move by the guilty party.

Be strong, stay focused on you and the kids.


----------



## DWM

It might get interesting now. I am not sure about this, and neither is my lawyer, but it appears that since our residence in Canada is temporary (3 year work permit that has been renewed once) and that STBXWs status here is purely due to the fact that she is my spous she might be illegally resident from the moment she chose to separate. 

In the mean time lawyer is encouraging me to cough up some money to induce her to move into a home of her own and to try to keep the children here with her coming to my house to look after them during the day and leaving at night.


----------



## DWM

As a side and parallel event, my mother is now gravely ill. My mother is in hospital in ICU (in South Africa) with diverticulitus. (infected intestine). The condition was probably latent but certainly exacerbated by my STBXW's actions and my mothers concern for my welfare. Just another casualty from a selfish woman's vindictive actions?


----------



## turnera

I'm so sorry. Can you go to her?


----------



## happyman64

I am sorry to hear about your Mom.

Are a citizen of S.A.?

Is your wife a citizen of S.A. Or Ireland?

How cannot your citizenship not affect a D in Canada?


----------



## OldWolf57

Really sorry about your Mom D.

But at least your lawyer is starting to think outside the box.


----------



## DWM

I am getting different stories on the the STBXW's work permit. The current one (under normal circumstances) runs out Jan 2015 so she could be good until then which is time enough to apply for Permanent residence or get on independently. Its a mess. 

One small thing made me smile. It seems with all my younger kids occupying STBXW's friends home and spending all day playing online computer games, it appears that they have overrun their download limit, so the friend is probably not too chuffed. And I have also found out that STBXW is getting money from her Brother. (I never liked him much) so she is being fed comfort from her family.


----------



## turnera

Typical. 

What can YOU do to make a dent in her comfort?


----------



## DWM

turnera said:


> Typical.
> 
> What can YOU do to make a dent in her comfort?


Nothing right now. My lawyer just called, and she and her lawyer agreed to our proposal to pay her $10 000 (deductable from final division of assets) to help her settle in her own home. What that does, at least, is remove the threat that the courts would ask for me to move out and she move in with the children in the home (in the interests of the children).

PS. My mind and resolve keeps wavering. I keep thinking that maybe she wakes up and sees what its doing the the children and wants to come back and reconcile. I realistically doubt that that can happen but it causes me periodic depression. I know that pleading for her to see reason will never work but its difficult to resist the temptation to try.


----------



## Chaparral

Pleading with a wayward ALWAYS backfires.

Get Married Man Sex Life and do the MAP. You have little hope but if it doesn't help with her it will definitely help with your future with a much better oartner.

Just wondering, have you investigated walkaway wives?


----------



## DWM

chapparal said:


> Pleading with a wayward ALWAYS backfires.
> 
> Get Married Man Sex Life and do the MAP. You have little hope but if it doesn't help with her it will definitely help with your future with a much better oartner.
> 
> *Just wondering, have you investigated walkaway wives?*


No i have not, what is that, a book, a forum, an essay somewhere?


----------



## turnera

Just google it. There's a whole industry on it.


----------



## DWM

turnera said:


> Just google it. There's a whole industry on it.


I did, since there is so much I wondered what specifically he was referring to.


----------



## turnera

He probably means that when women hit that point where they decide they have 'wasted their life' on you, there's little chance of them coming back.


----------



## DWM

turnera said:


> He probably means that when women hit that point where they decide they have 'wasted their life' on you, there's little chance of them coming back.


That much is probably true. The description fits. The conclusion renews my depression. Any old hope I have been clinging to is evaporating.


----------



## turnera

I'll tell you that, in 10 years of doing this, I've yet to see a single person who lost a wayward who didn't come back and say they NOW have an unbelievably great life - WITHOUT the dead weight.

You just can't see it yet.


----------



## DWM

turnera said:


> I'll tell you that, in 10 years of doing this, I've yet to see a single person who lost a wayward who didn't come back and say they NOW have an unbelievably great life - WITHOUT the dead weight.
> 
> You just can't see it yet.


I probably will not for a while. However I am now getting ready to make lifestyle decisions for me, and me alone, without worrying about the consequences to her. I am probably leaving Canada (its been unlucky for me) and will try to figure out where I will be happy. It will be a nice bonus that it will probably force her to leave before she is ready.


----------



## DWM

I am flying to SOuth Africa to visit my gravely ill mother. Here illness was not helped (possibly even precipitated) by STBXW's walkaway action and her worrying about us.


----------



## Chaparral

Good luck and prayers for your mom and family.


----------



## turnera

I urge you not to lay the blame of your mother's illness on your stbx. It will only hurt you all in the long run.


----------



## DWM

turnera said:


> I urge you not to lay the blame of your mother's illness on your stbx. It will only hurt you all in the long run.


You are right, of course. The temptation to lay the guilt trip on her is very strong.

I saw my Mom yesterday. Its distressing to see her in this condition. She cannot talk with all the tubes going into her so we cannot communicate.

My mother was the only one in my family that genuinely liked my StBXW and our separation really hit her hard. I guess the rest saw what I was too blind to see.


----------



## DWM

I have been stupid, I could not resist the chance to get a dig in and it comes from a quote from my ailing mother when she still could speak to my sisters. She said "STBXW is killing her." I repeated this on my facebook status. Two of her cousins chimed in on this post and I replied to them, including my assessment that she lied cheated and stole from me. (These are all provably true statements) 

However yesterday I am greeted with a lawyers letter accusing me of "falsely" accusing her of adultery and theft. Well I didn't used the word adultery but I did say cheating and an EA even without physical contact is cheating and secretly siphoning funds from a joint savings account is theft so it can be proved true. However I am warned that any future posting of content, *images * _(interesting, she must have now remembered my photos) _ or references to STBXW will be met with the "full force of the law". For any recurrence she wants the lawyer to institute an action for damages including but not limited to an action for intentional defamation. (is this empty posturing, because all that is needed to beat a charge of libel is for the accusations to be true)

In addition since my funds are blocked (I can only move funds from a savings account once a month so I cannot pay the settling in money of $10 000 my lawyer suggested I offer her but I am ordered to pay this forthwith. 

There are a few other issues but also should be able to be dealt with without a problem.

It appears that the thing she fears most is exposure. Exposure of her cheating and exposure of her lack of integrity (stealing and lying) and is trying to use her lawyer to scare me into stopping the exposure. (I am thinking Cheaterville next.?) 

I think it is now time for nuclear option and that is to resign my job in Quebec which then makes my (and her) work permits invalid. I would then have to leave Canada completely (possibly within 30 days) and the divorce would probably have to take place elsewhere. Ireland would be interesting because you have to have been living separated for 4 years before any divorce can be granted in Ireland.

Anyway I have the weekend to sit on this while I think of my next action. Again opinions and suggestions are welcome. I am in South Africa at the moment and I am trying to get an appt with a South African lawyer to find out how the antenuptual agreement (pre-nuptual to you transatlantics) that was written in south africa under the south african marriage act applies internationally.


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## OldWolf57

You are just now starting to see that this leach cares nothing for the hurt she cause.

You nuke her by replying with proof she stole, and had the EA.
Where did you marry ??? 

Strange you never mentioned the Prenup before. 
Thats why she is doing it in Canada.
Still, even Canada should uphold it.
If not, I would resign and leave. Let her law dog waste her money filing useless papers trying to get you to come back.

You are only now starting to see. She wanted the passports to keep you from running with the kids, and to keep you near them, where she thinks she has the upperhand.

Does your lawyer know of the prenup ??

I can believe you didn't secure the money offshore.


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## DWM

Yes my lawyer has a copy of the antenuptual contract. There is not much cash available (about $ 15 000 ) but the problem is that their is a lot of money tied up in the equity of the house. That is possibly vulnerable to arbitrary court action but my antenuptual should ideally be able to protect it since it is in my name only and she deserted the "family home". We shall see how that plays out. 

All this is happening while my mother is critically ill and she shows no sorrow or remorse. My mother is really the only one of my family who ever genuinely liked STBXW.


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## turnera

Isn't your lawyer a bigger bulldog than hers?

Then you've got the wrong lawyer. A bulldog lawyer would laugh in her face and countersue.


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## DWM

On the subject of the warning against images in particular, it occurs to me (and I hope I am not consciously guilty of trickle truthing TAM here) that STBXW and I engaged in live sex on webcam in some adult chatrooms. She participated with full consent. Some of these could very easily have been recorded, or snapshot still images recorded by any arbitrary third party. For these I cannot be held responsible for any further distribution on the internet or otherwise. I shall let my lawyer know about this ASAP so that her lawyer can inform her that there is really NO possible recourse to damages from me if any of that gets out now or in the future.


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## happyman64

It would be a shame if you had to resign to take care of your Mom.

At this point in time your Mom really does need you.


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## OldWolf57

Happy took the word out of my mouth.
And it just happen to be where the prenup was recorded,, my my my.


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## DWM

Not unrelated, my Mom died 2 hours ago. She helped me so much just talking and supporting me in the days after STBXW abandoned me and shared my pain so much that, I can't help feeling, it precipitated or exacerbated her final illness. 

I have reserved a special place in hell for STBXW.


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## happyman64

DWM 

Very sorry for the passing of your Mom.

My condolences......

HM


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## OldWolf57

My Sincere Condolences D.
May God Bless Her in His Presence.
Be strong D, like she raised you to be.

Again,, So sorry Man.


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## turnera

I'm so sorry.


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## walkonmars

Deepest sympathies and condolences.


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## Louise7

DWM said:


> Not unrelated, my Mom died 2 hours ago. She helped me so much just talking and supporting me in the days after STBXW abandoned me and shared my pain so much that, I can't help feeling, it precipitated or exacerbated her final illness.
> 
> I have reserved a special place in hell for STBXW.


A loss like no other and I'm so sorry for you. Safe journey to your mum.


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## DWM

Thanks for the condolences. Did you know that there is not one condolence message from STBXW, and my mother was the one person on my side of the family that had any sympathy or genuine affection for her.


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## OldWolf57

Does she know ??

If so, now you are starting to see what a cold blooded user she always was.


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## DWM

OldWolf57 said:


> Does she know ??
> 
> If so, now you are starting to see what a cold blooded user she always was.


She does, and I am. Clarity is dawning. My poor children.


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## happyman64

DWM

Do not be surprised. Your wife's actions of late are just horrible.

Why should the passing of you Mom be any different.

If anything, this should prepare you for the future.

Stay strong. Stay home. And see what happens.

Scruuu Canada!

HM64


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## DWM

Her previous reaction to a but of public debate on facebook (getting her lawyer to threaten a defamation suit) shows her fear of taking the discussion public in front of her family. I have been mulling over writing an open letter to her (copying most of her family) detailing her past indiscretions, just as I have here. My sister is writing just such a letter, partly to counter the biassed information she is telling her own family. Is there merit or value in making such a debate public like this. Particularly as I strongly suspect she is involved in another affair right now (well I suppose since she has formally separated it is not an affair anymore)


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## turnera

What's your goal? Reconciliation? Revenge?


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## Shaggy

I find it amazing that she wasted money on a lawyer actually writing you that stupid useless warning.

It does show that your path her is the nuclear option. She made a horrible mistake in the way she reacted, because she revealed her greatest fear and weakness. 

You should take full advantage of that and expose the affair. After all it is the reason why your marriage has ended and your family is braking up.

I can't help but think that one of the reasons she fear exposure is the blowback to the AP and to their relationship and damage it will cause.

my advice is to go nuclear and don't look back.


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## DWM

turnera said:


> What's your goal? Reconciliation? Revenge?


Neither, really, but some revenge for the way she is painting me to her family is probably underlying some of my motives. I want a balanced picture put out there and making her answer the questions publicly (or if not, just to have the questions about her behaviour become common knowledge) so she cannot paint herself as an innocent victims of an "abusive" husband as she is trying to do.


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## turnera

I can live with that. I ALWAYS want people to hear MY truth, especially when I'm being reamed. I just suggest that you do it in a responsible, classy way.


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## DWM

turnera said:


> I can live with that. I ALWAYS want people to hear MY truth, especially when I'm being reamed. I just suggest that you do it in a responsible, classy way.


Well it wasn't elegant. My sister sent an open letter to all her friends e-mail addresses that we could find, exposing her former affairs and pilfering, etc much as I have done here. It, of course, provoked some vitriolic responses from those firmly in STBXW's camp, (and some cheers from those in mine) and a couple of more neutral ones.


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## turnera

Good. Now you move forward with the truth, and you see where people 'end up.' Good to get rid of the other-campers now.


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## OldWolf57

I really like your sister.

But one thing is very clear here. You have the answers to the title of your thread.
You are not being a big enough d1ckhead imho.

But enough about her. How are you holding up man ??
My Mom had her leg amputated above her knee the other day,and I'm a wreck.
So I can't begin to imagine how you are feeling losing your Mom.

But just know, you are in our Prayers.

And Give that sister a BIG kiss from us here.


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## DWM

Yesterday was a bad day again, for my depression. Dealing with STBXW and lawyers for the interim arrangements (Divorce takes a year) so some court ordered interim payment is made. I feel like I have been screwed over, but with basically one concession achieved, and that is STBXW will not expect me to pay for the House in Ireland. Otherwise I have paid her $10 000 in resettlement expenses and have to fork over $1600 a month for child and spousal support.

This, of course does not change the fact that as far as the Irish bank is concerned, I am joint mortgage holder and we are jointly and severally liable for that mortgage whatever agreement we have here. 

I am not sure now whether it is a good idea to now rock the boat and let the bank know that I am no longer going to contribute to the mortgage repayment. The consequence of that is that STBXW could not right now qualify to hold that mortgage on her own, and thus the bank would move to sell the property and recover what they can or she could rope some sucker (her father or her brother come to mind) to take over the liability of the mortgage. She does want to keep that house but I know its a financial millstone that I am well rid of. Maybe the bank won't care if the money keeps coming in but it does put STBXW under pressure. I also have a reducing ballance life policy on that mortgage which I want to extract myself from. (I wouldn't want STBXW to benefit from my possible demise in any way).

The open letter and facebook exposure certainly put the wind up her but the consequence is that it has now become part of the interim agreement that I will not further denigrate her on social media. Oh well, I have said my piece there already.


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## OldWolf57

Hey D, it sure must be NICE to have a SISTER on Facebook. She can post WHATEVER she wants.

As to the bk in Ireland, you need to move on that. I know over here removing yourself is hard.
My threat to just stop paying ALWAYS work in the end.
Just make sure to get everything they agree to in writing. That way they can't come back if she default. Banks and cc try that if you don't. Especially if foreclosed. They try to make you pay if it sold for less than the mortg amount.


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## DWM

Bad day again. Eldest son (18) , who stays with me for the moment is vacillating about whether to move in with his mother or stay with me. He has been very emotional and prickly (sensitive) lately and I took him to task about something he revealed to his mother at a bad time in a phone call and he thinks he will be less under pressure to avoid conflict if he stays with his mother. We had a bit of a fight yesterday and he threatened to move out to his mother's apartment. I basically told him to do it if he wants and it will actually free me of the burden of feeding and clothing him. 

I have made my option to move out of Canada known and he wants to stay and definitely doesn't want to go to South Africa. He has a lot of legal status problems with ability to work or study in Canada and at the moment doesn't qualify to be on the health system. If he moves in with his mother she will have to pay for private health insurance etc because I will not. (its not in the agreement).


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## DWM

Something has lifted my spirits just now. I have just been called by a recruiter. (Hey linked-in is useful guys, and a recruiting call is a long long way from a job offer but I feel good as I know many of the people who work there personally). There is a job going in the USA (Georgia) and it couldn't have come at a better time. This gives me a focus and direction for the moment. I also think it is a place that #1 son actually might be happy to go to if I can swing a visa for him (I need to find out more about adult dependants and work visas in the US.)


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## turnera

DWM said:


> I basically told him to do it if he wants and it will actually free me of the burden of feeding and clothing him.




You had better have apologized to him by now.

You're the adult, DWM. No place for conditional love with your child. No matter how much he upsets you.


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## DWM

turnera said:


> You had better have apologized to him by now.
> 
> You're the adult, DWM. No place for conditional love with your child. No matter how much he upsets you.


Yep, I have already. He is an adult himself (18) but still still too young to be pushed unshielded into the middle of a fight.


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## turnera

The brain/mind doesn't stop developing until around age 25. Legally, he's an adult. Mentally, he's still a kid wanting to please his dad and mom and scared as hell. 

Not trying to dis you, I know you mean well and you're in a bad spot. Just pointing it out, as you seem to have a bunch of kids rotating around y'all's situation. But good for apologizing.


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## happyman64

DWM said:


> Yep, I have already. He is an adult himself (18) but still still too young to be pushed unshielded into the middle of a fight.


Especially a fight that puts him between his Mom and Dad.

A fight he has no chance of winning but both of you losing him over it.

Stay focused DWM. Your issues are with her.


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## DWM

Another day to reflect on the inevitable. Most of her stuff is gone. Mostly books. She had a ton of books about 15 boxes full and the house looks empty without them. I had to deal with her over what kitchen stuff I keep. She took all the children's toys, which is OK since they have grown out of them by now (lego, playmobile etc.) and less to clutter my house. 

Interesting that she is spending money hand over fist. We have to see how that lasts. having paid her $10 000 (deductable from final settlement anyway on the advice of my lawyer to entice her from trying to establish herself in my house and forcing me to leave) she is now spending it. A new car, she has rented an apartment and no doubt she needs more furniture. I always like her with long hair and now that she has moved out she has had her hair cut quite short. I suppose that is a statement of intent on her part, (but I took the trouble to tell her it looks nice). Looking at her in the new light of no longer feeling any affection for her (or not too much), she does not look so good to me anymore. she was in her mom jeans and they really do make her arse look fat.


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## DWM

Well now I can say I am moving on. I have met someone new and the relationship is moving at a fast pace; maybe too fast, since I realise (as does she) that it is a classic rebound situation. However it does me good to invest emotional energy in a new relationship rather than pine about the past.


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## bigtone128

been there, done that..it did me good for 2 reasons 
1) got me away from thinking about my ex.
2) gave me positive feelings about someone else.

It didnt work though. and in the end I had to grieve 2 relationships and i got messed up over both. 
Good luck though.


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## DWM

Well two steps forward and one step back. Eldest son (18 for those who haven't followed all the way) has decided to move out and in with his mother. Its been quite strained for a while and of course he has divided loyalties, but it was becoming difficult living with his sullen mood (while mine is improving all the time) and reluctance to talk about things all the time. The catalyst came about when I quizzed him on how his studies were progressing and he claimed to be unmotivated and being depressed in this house. He claimed he could study better at his mother's (with my two youngest, 10 and 12, there all the time that is not likely) but I took him at his word and told him to move out straight away rather than carry on threatening to (as he had been doing for the past month). Perhaps he was also reacting badly to the fact that I have a new girlfriend and moving on. 

Anyway I now have an empty house where I can entertain my girlfriend(s) without worrying about being in your face about it to my children. 

On a lighter note, the first thing STBXW asks when I drop him off with his stuff, is "Where is his bed".


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## OldWolf57

Just checking on you D, Hope all is as well as can be.


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## DWM

Not bad at all OW, Divorce proceeding and a lot has happened. I still have some issues with the kids education and I am pushing both for shared custody (which appears to be what normally happens ) and for the youngest two kids to attend regular school. (She is homeschooling them and not registering them with the school board in any way) 

She must be running out of money (or maybe her brother's sponsorship of her legal fees is ending) since I have received a message that she is now prepared to engage in mediation rather than continue to do everything through the lawyers. 

On the personal side my psychologist steered me into getting checked out for depression or ADHD. I have now discovered I really am ADHD, which I am starting to treat. So this crisis did precipitate me taking action to sort myself out. 

The relationship with the new girlfriend is progressing well (meeting her family next week actually) and its quite interesting for me to compare how a person who really cares for me treats me. Its quite a contrast. My STBXW's never included me in her social life with her toxic sisterhood friends, whereas my girlfriend is only too pleased to introduce me to her friends and include me in her social life, and give me priority in her life.


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## OldWolf57

Sorry for not seeing ths yesterday.
Lost my mom yesterday, get on TAM, and remembered your mom passed not long-ago.
Compound that with your D, and ADHD, I really see.

Hopefully by this time next year we both will be well past the pain.


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## DWM

I am sorry to hear about your mother. I present my sincere condolences to you and your family. 

Re my ADHD I am trying out the drug CONCERTA (similar to Ritalin but slow release to make effects last longer) and interestingly I read that amongst other things it stimulates the generation of dopamine in the brain. I have heard so much about dopamine on TAM and it seems too little of it is also a problem of sorts.


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## TBT

Sorry for being off topic here DWM,but I just wanted to add my condolences to both you and OldWolf for your losses.Take care.


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## turnera

So sorry, OldWolf.


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## Kallan Pavithran

my condolences Old wolf.


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## OldWolf57

You people have helped so many, so Thanks to ALL.

D, you just take care of yourself man. We want you and the kids to come thru this strong and whole.


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## DWM

Time for an interesting update. I don't quite know how this will play out but it certainly puts the cat among the pigeons. 

You all know I am in Canada on a (temporary) work permit so all the status and benefits for my cohabiting spouse and dependants devolve from my work permit, so their status is entirely dependant on my status and they have no independant elegebility to them. The one thing that is not immediately affected is STBXW's right to reside and to work in Canada which can continue until the expiration date of her permit. 

I assume she felt comfortable and complacent in this knowledge and, in her bid to control her own and the childrens affair got all her post forwarded to her new address and notified various institutions of her change of address. 

Now it transpires that the provicial medical insurance scheme queried this change of address with me. After clarifying the situation they proceeded to inform me that due to the separation, both my STBXW and children (if they live mostly with her and have her address as their residence) are then no longer elegible for medical coverage under the government scheme. It appears that the fall out from that is they also will no longer be elegible to my extra group private insurance provided by my employer as well as it is contingent on their elegibility to the government cover. So now STBXW and children have no medical insurance whatsoever and the children can only get it back if they physically live under my roof and have my address as their address. 

My lawyer is on the case but it is dissappointing that none of our respective lawyers were aware of this complication. I hope this becomes leverage for me to get effective custody of all our children (and not be ordered to buy separate private medical cover which none of us can afford). They do say the interests of the children are paramount to the judges so this could help here.


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## turnera

That IS interesting. Not sure it will end up well for you, but we can hope...


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## Mike11

DWM said:


> Time for an interesting update. I don't quite know how this will play out but it certainly puts the cat among the pigeons.
> 
> You all know I am in Canada on a (temporary) work permit so all the status and benefits for my cohabiting spouse and dependants devolve from my work permit, so their status is entirely dependant on my status and they have no independant elegebility to them. The one thing that is not immediately affected is STBXW's right to reside and to work in Canada which can continue until the expiration date of her permit.
> 
> I assume she felt comfortable and complacent in this knowledge and, in her bid to control her own and the childrens affair got all her post forwarded to her new address and notified various institutions of her change of address.
> 
> Now it transpires that the provicial medical insurance scheme queried this change of address with me. After clarifying the situation they proceeded to inform me that due to the separation, both my STBXW and children (if they live mostly with her and have her address as their residence) are then no longer elegible for medical coverage under the government scheme. It appears that the fall out from that is they also will no longer be elegible to my extra group private insurance provided by my employer as well as it is contingent on their elegibility to the government cover. So now STBXW and children have no medical insurance whatsoever and the children can only get it back if they physically live under my roof and have my address as their address.
> 
> My lawyer is on the case but it is dissappointing that none of our respective lawyers were aware of this complication. I hope this becomes leverage for me to get effective custody of all our children (and not be ordered to buy separate private medical cover which none of us can afford). They do say the interests of the children are paramount to the judges so this could help here.


Welcome to Canada 

I hear the Karma Bus rolling for your ex :smthumbup:


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## DWM

Mike11 said:


> Welcome to Canada
> 
> I hear the Karma Bus rolling for your ex :smthumbup:


Thats exactly what my sister said to me. However I don't want to count my chickens just yet. Who knows what tortuous path this will take.


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## Mike11

As soon as you told here that you are on a WP and divorcing I kinda guessed she is going to get it sooner or later, I originally thought that if you are divorcing while on WP the Accompanying spouse ( the one not originally requesting the WP) must leave the country, it seems that immigration is cracking down hard on these lately and I heard many were forced to leave as for suspicion of false requests for means to stay in the country

Serve her right if she get hit by the Karma Bus


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