# In the mind of a 'Wanna-be cheater'



## Avalanche (Mar 14, 2012)

I am not an avid reader, but I do lurk and check in here randomly. 

I have been consistently frustrated with the level of conversation and intimacy in our marriage for about many (10+?) years. 

I came back to this forum because I was curious to read the one and only post that I wrote and was shocked that I could easily cut and paste it again....and I wrote it almost 4 years ago! (I do not know how to post a link, but if you search, it should be easy to find) I was frustrated for years previous to that, but that is when I was actively looking for help.

I get it, we are in our 40's, have 2 young kids. As best as a man can empathize I have read and understand how hormones in women can affect them. I marvel at the functions and changes a womans body goes through. She has commented that I am more empathetic than many of her friends who share the same story of frustrated husbands.

So, I do not put pressure on her to have more sex or more passionate sex anymore. I do no put pressure on her to talk more, but I have expressed that I feel unwanted and am frustrated and that meaningful intimacy is important for us and our family. Nothing has changed. Nothing has changed because I no longer work at wanting improvements. 

I used to initiate all date nights, all relationship talks, all sex. She does only when I have become frustrated and tired of it. Now, I have become tired of it all together. I still will propose a date night, but for myself its less about connecting than it is about going to a good restaurant or doing something I want to do anyway. I used to think a good date will end in good sex....now I am open to sex or something else like going to bed or watching TV. I'm done feeling hope, then frustration, I guard my vulnerability from her.

We have seen a councillor. She says she wants to see one on her own, but never gets around to making the appointment. I've eroded to the point I don't care to put the effort into reminding her about our 'issues' (this too is a cycle)

I have been frustrated too many years. I feel I have self preserved to the point I have emotionally detached. 

So, I am not mad any more, I am not frustrated as much....BUT, I am or have lost interest in her. I don't really like her touch, I feel like I live in an emotional wasteland in my home. (not including my kids which are awesome in every way)

If I didn't have kids, I would leave. 

I have not signed up for cheating websites or dating sites. The ONLY thing holding me back is the thought of wreaking my kids home life. 

Thing is, I'VE TOLD HER ALL THIS. As matter of factly as possible and I just don't get how it doesn't seem to resonate with her. She says all the right things and usually there is about a week of her talking and listening, (we still have sex at the same times though....that never changes) and I get an amazing BJ, but then its back to the usual. (for the record I have asked many times if I can do anything for her sexually and she doesn't like oral and really doesn't express she has many needs) This too is a cycle, if feels like she just appeases me when I am really frustrated and then all goes back to the way it was....years of this cycle....I'm tired of this too. Mostly what she wants from me to do is not leave my socks on the floor, make sure the dishwasher is running when I leave for work, fold the laundry, etc.....she loves order. 

I am a decent looking guy, University educated, 6'2", blue eyed, successfully self employed contractor in decent shape. One of my contracts is for a company where I am the only male amongst over 150 females. 99% of my dealings are with the woman of the house. Just saying there are opportunities. I have not responded to flirtations or anything of the sort. 

A few weeks back I surprised my wife by lying on the couch naked. She walked in the room and said, "ha, is it cold in here" and sat on another couch and watched TV. I told her that was pretty brutal, and after thinking about it her response was, "I am not turned on with the naked body like you are". The implication is for me to accept our sexual differences again. Really?! - I said, "something like that after nearly 20 years together isn't about turning you on with a naked body, its about the symbolism of fun, playfulness of intent. At least if you were not into it, say something nice". She apologized, but still, its that kind of knee jerk response that I get. She's just brutal.

So.....after 10 years of being empathetic, lowering my sex drive our relationship in my eyes has eroded. I am ripe for an affair. To be honest I fantasize about it all the time. Deep down, I don't think I will ever do it mostly because I am loyal to my children, but I am solidly a "Wanna-be Cheater".


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

What happens if you initiate sex? Does she go along with it in reasonably good humor, or does she shut you down?


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## ihatethis (Oct 17, 2013)

I am sorry you are here. As a woman, I cannot imagine being this way. For me, it's not just about the physical connection to intimacy, it's also about the emotional. If I see a man who is a good dad, is hard working, loves me, etc... those things want me WANT him. If that makes sense. Maybe it seems as if she just isn't SEEING you. You're present but she's not focusing on you. 

As far as the cheating goes. My dad cheated on my mom, and it killed our family. I resented my dad for a long time. I have now forgiven him, but I will never forget what he did to our family. Please do not do this, you are better than that. It would be better for you and your wife to split due to differences, rather than an affair. You need to be happy too and when your kids see you happy, they will be happy.


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## BBF (May 21, 2015)

Damn hard story and exactly like mine except my wife drinks a lot and the sex is usually just "starfish sex." No BJs and she thinks oral sex on her is icky and doesn't like it/won't allow it. No kids and I'll admit my eyes do wander. So far, Peter Pecker has been kept in pants, but I do wonder sometimes.....


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## Zanne (Dec 7, 2012)

.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Avalanche said:


> I am not an avid reader, but I do lurk and check in here randomly.
> 
> I have been consistently frustrated with the level of conversation and intimacy in our marriage for about many (10+?) years.
> 
> ...


Realistically speaking, you have 3 options before you...

1. Whether by counseling, reading books, date nights, romantic getaways, self-improvement, or any combination of the above (up to and including ALL of the above), make your marriage better. Unfortunately, you can't do this alone. Your wife has to commit to this as well, and you obviously can't make her do anything that she doesn't want to do.

And it's pretty clear that she's not interested in this.

Maybe she doesn't feel the _need_ to do this. Maybe she doesn't feel that the status quo is so threatened by the lack of physical affection in your marriage that she feels the need to change.

Have you communicated your dissatisfaction in a _meaningful_ way?

2. Divorce.

3. Have an affair.

Of the three of these, #2 and #3 have the potential to wreak havoc upon not only upon your own life but upon your family unit as well. Of those two, #2 allows you to pursue other opportunies for affection _w/o compromising your personal integrity_, thereby eliminating any ADDITIONAL -- and irrevocable -- damage to your family unit that would inevitably be brought about by #3.

Seems pretty clear to me.


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

OP,
With only a couple of small differences I could have written your post. I believe there are many more like us out there. My wife seems to be an emotional void, a dead zone for anything cognizant regarding relationships. I have read several similar posts and I remember one in particular wherein the OP simply came to terms with he and his wife being friends. No real romance or intimacy, just remaining together as good friends sharing a home. It seemed quite sad as I read it but I am finding myself following that same path.

I wish I could offer some golden nuggets of insight but I have tried almost everything I can think of to try and elicit an emotional response from my W and so far I have flat-lined. It seems there simply no way to make it "resonate" with her. I have come to believe that it is mostly due to her limited intellect. She simply does not appear to have the necessary intellectual functionality to comprehend the issue. I have likened her depth to the skim of oil on the top of the water on the roadway after a downpour, she simply has none. Therefore, I have concluded that to expect more from her is unrealistic. Having accepted that fact, I seldom experience anger any longer and even the frustration has diminished considerably.

I, unlike you, have never considered cheating simply because I am not capable of it. My integrity would not allow it. There are many worse situations in life so since this is what my destiny holds then I will find a way to accept it and appreciate the rest of life. Regrettable but it is what it is. I would caution you against an A but it is obviously up to you. I wish you good fortune.


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## Acoa (Sep 21, 2012)

Women are wired differently then men when it comes to being turned on. Laying naked is an expression of being vulnerable, most women prefer a show of providing or protection. Work one evening with your tool belt on, fix something around the house that's been bugging her. Pay attention to her reaction. 

You may still need to initiate, do so with passion. Take her, not in a hurtful or mean way. Just be very direct.


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## Avalanche (Mar 14, 2012)

First off, I have to say that replies may take awhile at times. 

I do not work at a computer and I need to focus on my work when on a job site. 

Thank you for the responses.




technovelist said:


> What happens if you initiate sex? Does she go along with it in reasonably good humor, or does she shut you down?


For the most part she will go along with it.



ihatethis said:


> As far as the cheating goes. My dad cheated on my mom, and it killed our family. I resented my dad for a long time. I have now forgiven him, but I will never forget what he did to our family. Please do not do this, you are better than that. It would be better for you and your wife to split due to differences, rather than an affair. You need to be happy too and when your kids see you happy, they will be happy.


Thank you...this is exactly what I do not want.

To be clear, I am not scheming or planning. Just being open with my thoughts. 



Zanne said:


> I am going to selfishly ask you a few questions: what do you expect to get out of having an affair? In other words, WHY do you want it? Are you trying to get back at your wife? Are you trying to feel good about yourself?
> 
> The reason why my asking is selfish is because I have thread in the Private section (which you won't be able to see since you need a certain amount of posts here before that section is available to you) and there is a discussion about my affair partner and his intent when we first met. BTW, we are no longer with our spouses and, in fact, we are now living together. We are doing well as a couple, but there is this general feeling around here that men have affairs for different reasons than women.
> 
> Beside my interest, I'm sure it would be helpful if you would answer those questions anyway. I agree with previous posters that an affair will only cause you and your family great pain. Please reconsider.


I think an affair is only pain and suffering.

My wife doesn't physically want me. I don't need that to feel good about myself in general. Yes, I want to be wanted in that regard. 

What I am feeling is, after 20 years, many attempts and cycles of unsuccessful changes, I am to the point I do not think things will change because I am giving up for good.

So what?

- Stay with wife as is?

- Separate?

- Have an affair and deal with the outcome?


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Avalanche, I am you in another ten years. The kids are out of the house now, and there is nothing left. Nothing has changed over the 30+ years we've been married. Nothing, despite my numerous attempts at talking with her directly, as well as countless changes I've tried in my own behavior and attitudes. I submerged my sexuality for 30 years to match her disinterest, and it isn't a psychologically healthy thing to do.

Like your situation, there isn't any big negative. Your wife isn't a drunk, she's not out sleeping with every sleezy guy she can pick up in a bar. She's a good mom. She'll even put out pretty good sex with some regularity, even if not as often or spontaneously as you'd like.

This makes it hard to detect you're the frog being boiled. If you could point to some terrible behaviors of hers, you could use those as reasons to leave. Instead, the misery you know seems survivable, and you get to see your kids every day. It seems like a livable compromise.

But you're just putting off the inevitable. One day your kids move out, and you're there with this same woman in this same relationship. Nothing will be different in 10 years except you'll be older.

Meanwhile your kids are learning what a marriage relationship looks like by watching you. They will grow up to repeat your mistakes.

Imo, kids are only a tie breaker. If you'd flip a coin to decide whether to stay or go, if the good vs bad in the marriage was that close, then if you have kids you stay. Otherwise, kids are not a determining factor. Either the marriage by itself is good enough for you, or it is not. If it is not, then everybody including the kids will be better off if you split.

The ideal home for kids is with parents who are happily married. If that isn't possible then you are dealing with finding the best of the available options. Those options are staying in a bad marriage, divorce but have a functional relationship with your ex, or divorce with a terrible relationship with your ex. Your kids are probably better off with the middle option, divorce but having a workable relationship with their mom. Two happy homes are better than one unhappy dysfunctional one.

Have you read the book "Too Good To Leave, Too Bad To Stay"? It provides a framework to think about your situation and balance things out.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Here's my two cents:

You aren't sexually frustrated. You're emotionally frustrated, but it's manifesting through desire for more, better quality sex. What you're looking for is connection and validation, and you're looking to your wife to provide that to you through passionate sex.

Here's the rub--you're not going to get it that way.

Your wife sounds like she has responsive desire. She's not going to sexually attack you at the door because she can't cold start. But even if she DID, you'd probably only be happy for a while before you realized that you still feel a disconnect once the sex is done.

With two small kids, you've suddenly found yourself de-prioritized. It's almost inevitable that will happen.
You're looking to your wife to fill an emotional hole that you have, but she can't. You have to fill that hole yourself. Only you can figure out how to do that. It's a different process for everyone. You have to become happy on your own first, and then you'll find out that your wife complements and compounds your happiness, rather than being the source of it.

Having an affair has no upside in this situation. At BEST it's a short term fix that will end up causing you many more problems than you already have.


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## truster (Jul 23, 2015)

It may be that realistically discussing divorce (and if necessary, filing) may be the wake up call that she needs to realize that she needs to start putting more effort in. A major, looming consequence seems to have more impact to get the attention of a disinterested person than all the discussions in the world.

Cheating, I hope it's obvious, is by far the worst choice. Best case scenario, you throw away your integrity for a moment's simple satisfaction, live with guilt, and you're still in the same home situation as always. Worst case scenario, you throw away your integrity for a moment's simple satisfaction and you permanently alienate your wife and children.. then you divorce anyway.


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## Ol'Pal (Aug 24, 2015)

Thor said:


> Avalanche, I am you in another ten years. The kids are out of the house now, and there is nothing left. Nothing has changed over the 30+ years we've been married. Nothing, despite my numerous attempts at talking with her directly, as well as countless changes I've tried in my own behavior and attitudes. I submerged my sexuality for 30 years to match her disinterest, and it isn't a psychologically healthy thing to do.
> 
> Like your situation, there isn't any big negative. Your wife isn't a drunk, she's not out sleeping with every sleezy guy she can pick up in a bar. She's a good mom. She'll even put out pretty good sex with some regularity, even if not as often or spontaneously as you'd like.
> 
> ...



Excellent post. I appreciate it as I find myself in a very similar situation as Avalanche. I'm just impartial towards her anymore. 

Thanks!


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

I'd consider reading MMSL....


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

IMO, I think the honest and ethical choice for you is this.

Make up your mind if you can continue to live in your M until your children are grown and moving on in life.

If you can't face this many years of this lifeless M, then talk to your W and begin working with her for an amicable D.....show her empathy, it is likely that she will be hurt and scared and perhaps even still loves you in some way.....but empathy does not mean you are forced to stay in a bad M.

If you feel you can stay in the M until your kids are grown and moving on in life, then do so.

But have a frank discussion, without anger and blame, with your W to let her know you are unhappy in the M and seriously considering ending it once the kids are grown and moved on.

Ask for her to help you prepare for an easy and amicable D at that time....it will be far less angry and antagonistic if you don't keep you plans a secret and suddenly spring them on her at the time you file.

If she really does love you and does not want the D....this will put her on notice that unless she addresses her issues in the M, it will be coming to an end soon.

Maybe she will move mountains to save your M if she realizes it is hanging by a thread.

DO NOT have an A.....it is a selfish, scummy, and horribly destructive action that will scar you, your W, and your kids for life.

Continue to be a stand-up guy until the M is resolved.


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## deg20 (Apr 10, 2015)

Before my wife left me, and we were in the exact same scenario as you...exact!...I felt her pulling away gradually after 9 years...the alienation, the apathy, the redundancy, the going through the motions, the physical and emotional detachment despite my efforts...the feeling like I was part of the furniture. I even said out loud when I was by myself a few times, " I should just leave"...but I stayed. She ended up leaving...but you sparked an interesting memory I'd like to share.

Every Saturday morning I went downtown by myself, around 8:30...for about the last 2 years of my marriage...while she slept in. I enjoyed it. By myself, eating in peace and quiet in a not-so-busy diner...collecting my thoughts as I stared out the window...sitting at my favourite table...wondering if it will get better, or is this the way it will be forever. I loved her...yes, but how much now...and did she love me? I pondered this every weekend over my fried eggs and bacon and coffee. 

I used to stare at the apartment building across the street. Nice balconies...quaint...not a big building, nor ugly either. I often envisioned that there was a lovely lady who lived there...one that I could visit right after my breakfast every Saturday...one whom I could buzz and would let me in, where I could have great sex and be held and who would ask me questions and talk to me about many things...and want me...like me, and love me too...but then I could go back to the comfort of my home...my yard...my prescribed and predictable life. But I could never go through with this had it been real, yet I dreamt this every single Saturday. I was sad...I was lonely in my marriage, and my fantasy took me away for a bit. I wanted this badly, which really told me something about where my marriage was heading, yet I stayed. I gave her attention every day. I made her work lunch and brought her coffee while she got ready for work, every morning. I laid in bed at night for months wondering WHY she won't roll over and touch me. Why she just falls asleep so fast now...or was she faking it. Why did she blurt out an occasional, "I love you" in a monotone voice while staring at the wall in the dark, with her back to me...never in the eyes. Why does she always want the lights out when we have sex?...which was once a month at best. She didn't want the lights out when we met...why now?

She finally she left me. No spark, she said...and I stressed her out too much, she said...but also, she was unfaithful...

The point is, I think those Saturday morning fantasies were telling me something...so I do know exactly how you feel.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Is an open marriage off the table?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cam1974 (Oct 24, 2015)

my suggestion, take a day where it's just the two of you and go off somewhere where you can be alone. Then lay it all out on the line, tell her what your are feeling. Let her know what is going through your mind. Tell her you cannot go on if the marriage is going to continue to be like this. I wish my H would have done this with me and not gone off an had an affair with one of my closest friends. Please don't hurt your family by going off and having an affair. That just makes matters worse. I feel that it would be far better to either separate or divorce if things continue to erode in your marriage. Yes it will hurt, but let me tell you and affair hurts worse....


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## nursejackie (May 22, 2015)

I hate to admit this but I was like your wife for about the last 5 years of our marriage.Exactly like her.

In my case it was surgically induced menopause. Your wife is in her 40's? Could she be going through menopause? Could she be depressed?

I was both. I went to IC specifically to talk about how I could get my H to understand I had no interest anymore…at all. I did not want any type of intimacy ever again. Nothing. Touch to me felt unpleasant. It made my skin crawl. I recoiled.

Eventually I notice H is never home, texting all the time, home late and up early…I pick up on some lies from snooping and feel he's in an A or on his way into one. Suddenly I am panicked. I look up symptoms- no libido, gaining weight, no motivation, no activity level and no real pleasure. I get my dr to prescribe an anti depressant (wellbutrin) Then I do everything I can to make myself more desirable (because now I have motivation) I find TAM and get much needed support -so I don't jump off a roof. 

I watch "mating in captivity: a TED talk. It makes sense and I see that I am responsible for my own desire. 
I never prove my H is having an A but continued to suspect it. We go to MC. There is some hysterical bonding on my part coupled with the fact the medication improves your ability to feel PLEASURE and bingo!!! No problems in that department anymore.

Pretty sure H isn't interested in OW anymore. 

I looked up ways of creating the chemicals that would be present in an A and sleeping in the nude is helpful.( Not just in the hysterical bonding way) but in a way that promotes the cuddle hormone too. It creates that warm loving feeling again. It has transferred over to our daily lives. We now kiss each other goodbye, put a hand on a thigh at the movies, cuddle on the couch...I think our affection for each other will finally drive the kids out to get their own place

And the A? I don't think you should do it--but maybe she needs to think its a possibility. … get on your phone and laptop, go out for long walks..Be unavailable- let her wonder where you are.

It may take just the right combination of circumstances to get it going again. 

Good luck to you.


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## Avalanche (Mar 14, 2012)

Thank you all for the interesting and informative perspectives. 

I did go out and buy the book "Too Bad to Leave, Too Good to Stay" as suggested.

----

I think I 'literarily' cheated on my wife this morning by admitting all this on this forum. I didn't exactly feel better after writing that and I think I was semi-expecting negative responses from jaded, bitter, hurt people. I was hoping for something within that.....but....

What a positive, insightful bunch of people! 


Not sure how or when I will talk to her just yet. But I think I need to make some clear decisions and move forward one way or another. This thread has helped clarify that. Yes, I'll stay faithful. 0


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## Ol'Pal (Aug 24, 2015)

Avalanche said:


> Thank you all for the interesting and informative perspectives.
> 
> I did go out and buy the book "Too Bad to Leave, Too Good to Stay" as suggested.
> 
> ...


Good on you for staying faithful. It helps us keep some self respect through it all. 

Just be aware, The next stage of this, at least for me, is to just not care which direction the relationship goes. If we go our separate ways, I'll be perfectly fine with that. Somedays, I think I may actually prefer that path.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

I'm sorry to hear that you are in this situation. Like others, I myself could have written this and I have the same frustrations that you do. I have considered cheating many times and for one reason or another haven't because, let's face it, there's just no long term benefit, it puts a Band-aid over the problem. The courts make it harder because they destroy men in this situation and make it impossible to get a divorce and financially able to support yourself. Bottom line, there really is no solution to this, you either cheat, get caught and lose everthing or stay with her and never have sex again, or divorce her and lose everything. Great choice we married men have, huh?


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

My 2 cents. 

Don't cheat. Don't every and I mean ever compromise your integrity or character by using something she is doing wrong to do something wrong yourself. You clearly love your kids, what would they think of you when they found out your did that?

As for the marriage I know you want to stay for the kids but I think that's a bad decision. Your wife isn't interested in fixing this and has no real cause to change. Telling someone "hey this is bad but I won't leave because of it" literally makes it wasted words with zero meaning.

All this time you are taking one for the "team" but with what end in sight? This won't get better and if you wait till the kids are gone and then divorce what shape will you be in? How do you think they will perceive you then? What if 15 year from now she leaves you? Wouldn't you consider all this time wasted?

Now divorce isn't an easy decision and ultimately only you can do that. Some on the board have come to the conclusion they will live sexless but stay married. That's a choice and I won't say they are wrong for it. That can't be an easy decision. But know a few things: 
Divorce isn't the end of the world. I would rather have a great sex life now divorced than be married and sexless
Your kids won't turn to trolls over this. I think they would be far more hurt if you cheated and then you are now the sole reason mom and dad aren't together anymore
You only get one shot at life. How important is this to you?


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## pragmaster (May 7, 2014)

All the mature and reasonable answers have been stated above.

If you plan to be with your wife for a long time and she's not doing anything about your needs that you have apparently clearly stated, you can either leave, wait it out, declare another breakdown and seek counselling.... or have your cake and eat it too with extreme discretion and responsibility. How your wife and your kids feel as a result, in all fair selfishness and technicality, is not your problem. They choose to feel that way. I understand it's a marriage forum and some don't want to hear this, but it's your ****ing life dude. Do whatever you want, but OWN the consequences of said actions. What would you regret more? 

If you're going to cheat, remember: 

1) Protection is key. Getting a girl preggo or catching something will get you in trouble. 

2) Alibi's are crucial, but don't get unnecessary people involved. Expect to keep the guilt with you for the rest of your life. 

3) NEVER **** where you sleep. That includes at home and at work.

4) A man in your position should not bother with anything online. If you do, however, do not delete entire browsing history (just delete the pages). It is too suspicious. Take my advice and don't bother with anything online. Don't lock your phone. Don't be an idiot. Set clear expectations with your mistresses. Do not fall in love with your mistresses. 

5) Be strategic and NEVER neglect your wife. If you do, you are not cut out for this and you have already failed. 

6) Remember this...if you cheat once, you are most likely to cheat twice. 

7) You're not a bad person for wanting to cheat. Humans are naturally polygamous. People have this ridiculous assumption that monogamy is right. NO! It's a choice. Biologically speaking our bodies are programmed to have as many babies as possible. It's normal for men to get bored of their partner. It doesn't mean your a bad father. 

8) If you get caught, be a ****ing man.


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## pragmaster (May 7, 2014)

And lastly, the whole integrity thing is nonsense. You have a holy right in this universe to do anything you please, so as long as you understand the laws of darma and karma.


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## BrokenLady (Jan 19, 2015)

Without changing the basics, young kids, house, responsibilities etc. what does your ideal marriage look like? You have sex but you always have to initiate...if she initiated sometimes would that be enough? Is the sex unfulfilling? Are you just bored with her as a partner?

I'm sorry if my questions seem basic or even dumb. I read a lot of posts where people say they get rejected all the time...I know what rejection feels like & it's soul destroying but you say she doesn't reject you. How can she up the excitement? 

As a woman, walking in to find you naked would be a bit funny...you know women don't go from zero to horney in 1 sec. To be honest the humor aspect would probably lead to sex if it was me but I understand her not responding to that. 

To be honest I'm recovering from a REALLY bad time in my marriage. I guess part of it is me looking for understanding of what men want. I don't know what I'm thinking really....


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