# Why is having sex more important than attention,paying the bills,working 2 jobs, etc?



## Coldie (Jan 2, 2014)

I am very confused reading these forums. A lot of the times I see the letters HD and LD, which I understand is high drive and low drive. I see threads about two people trying to be compatible and how it's hard to make a LD really care about sex. 

I have a few questions for the members here:

Is sex worth more than my attention?
Is sex worth more than me working 1 or 2 jobs to support my wife?
Is sex worth more than being supportive around the house?
Is sex worth more than my smile?

I understand as young kids we are taught to place this huge value on sex. Why? Because we do not want our kids to go out and get pregnant at 12 years old. I understand the religious/moral practice of abstinence. I get it. Whether it's accepted or not, that practice abstinence is also in place to make sure there are not a bunch of illegitimate (also our in our laws --- kids born from unwed parents) kids with parents that were never married. There are reasons behind why sex seems so taboo and special. It's not anyone's fault for feeling that sex is this extremely important act that trumps everything else in a relationship. For example, a woman expects her husband to be faithful, loyal, and attentive, with no questions asked. However, because sex is so different and special, if she feels like only having it once a month, the husband is a "bad person" for trying to "force the issue of sex." 

Do you want to know what changes sex? Do you want to know what parents want for their kids, so they know that if they do have children everything would be okay? Do you know when it's okay to start sleeping with women/men in your parents house? Do you want to know when the bible says it's okay to have sex? Do you want to know when the state no longer feels a child is illegitimate? ONCE YOU ARE MARRIED. Marriage changes the importance of sex in life. It is no longer something you can't talk about. It is no longer something you can't think about. It is no longer something you saved for prom night or when he took you out to a nice dinner and drove you up to lookout point. Sex is now part of your relationship. Sex is just like his/her attention. Sex is a part of a healthy strong marriage. When you say I DO, you should also be saying, I AM NOT A CHILD ANYMORE, I AM A WOMAN/MAN. Men and women do not hold this insane standard of sex being so important that if I just don't feel like having "duty" sex, too bad, he/she can suffer. Because being intimate with my spouse is just so so so so so so bad. Horrible.

This great value placed on sex, as if it's the holy grail of a relationship. Not by the "high drive" spouse, but by the "low drive (I will also refer to as: selfish)" spouse. A spouse shouldn't have to share their body if they do not want to, even if they are married. However, a spouse is considered totally neglectful if they are not attentive, do not help around the house, do not pay bills, do not help take care of the kids and just do not make the other happy. 

Here are more questions:

Is sex really more difficult than doing the dishes? 
Is sex really more difficult than working 8 hours a day to help support your family? 
Is sex really more difficult than setting aside time to spend with your significant other to talk, watch a movie, or just hang out? 
Is sex really more difficult than a us sitting there and being attentive while your spouse talks about their day for 20 to 30 minutes? 
Is sex really more difficult than making dinner? 

YOU'VE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME. Sex is not difficult, kissing is not difficult, being intimate is not difficult. Sex is intimacy and if your significant other is not being intimate with you they are neglecting you. Not kind of, not "its a compromise", not it's just hard for a low drive person to get it.... no. They are neglecting you. When they first met you, did they neglect intimacy? Do you think that if you left them they would meet someone else and neglect intimacy? Why would any spouse settle when it comes to intimacy? There is no compromise with intimacy. There is no peaceful agreement to both of us being happy to only be intimate 2 times a week. I am sorry, it is this mind set that gets people taken advantage of. And yes, if you are in a sexless marriage you are being taken advantage of. If you need intimacy and you feel wrong for wanting it, you are taking advantage of yourself. You should never feel wrong to want to be intimate with your significant other.

With all that being said, I am sure I will be stoned. I am unsympathetic 100% to any spouse or person that claims giving sex is "work." I feel that person should be alone. There are no exceptions for me. I feel that person is absolutely selfish. No exceptions. If a person was raped or molested as a child, I can see why she/he would have issues, but those issues should be sorted out before she/he decides to torture another person with a sexless/LD marriage.

A man and woman in love should be together as much as possible. In fact, they should make sure each day they set apart time to spend with just each other. Whether it's to lay and kiss for 30 minutes, to make out, and yes, to have sex. It should be absolutely intimate. If you want a healthy body, you exercise each day. If you want a healthy marriage, you exercise your intimacy each day. 

No exceptions, no compromise.

Life is too short to settle. Good luck you guys.

/ramble /rant /LDisBS


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## Coldie (Jan 2, 2014)

Sorry for spelling and grammatical issues. I typed that out of frustration. I just can't understand anyone defending LD. I just can't. 

Help me get it.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Obviously written by someone who is HD and doesn't understand what someone who is truly LD feels like or goes through.

It is kind of like saying "oh you're not into broccoli? But it is SO good for you, you simply MUST eat it even though you don't enjoy it." To which the non-broccoli lover could easily say "there are many other things that are also good for you."


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## wilderness (Jan 9, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> Obviously written by someone who is HD and doesn't understand what someone who is truly LD feels like or goes through.
> 
> It is kind of like saying "oh you're not into broccoli? But it is SO good for you, you simply MUST eat it even though you don't enjoy it." To which the non-broccoli lover could easily say "there are many other things that are also good for you."


I don't think it is very difficult to eat something daily that you don't like. I like broccoli, but I don't care for ham, for example. If I had to eat it daily to make my spouse happy I would do so happily.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

But I could easily say "oh well, everyone should stretch. It is soooo good for you! It is good for your sex life, good for your body, good for your workout. You all just don't know what you are missing if you don't stretch until you can do the splits....really this is THE best way to be healthy you all...you should do this for your spouse and yourself".

And everyone would say....?

Some would say "who are you to tell me what is good for me?"

Some would say "this is just your opinion, why do you think you can tell me what to do?"

Others would say "I've never been flexible, no matter how much I stretch I will never be flexible".

Some might say "but I got an injury doing that once so I'm afraid to try again".

And since there was really no basis in what I originally proposed about the stretching except "you should all be more like me", then the varied responses are completely normal.

Same thing goes for what anyone "should do" with regard to sex.


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## Coldie (Jan 2, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> Obviously written by someone who is HD and doesn't understand what someone who is truly LD feels like or goes through.
> 
> It is kind of like saying "oh you're not into broccoli? But it is SO good for you, you simply MUST eat it even though you don't enjoy it." To which the non-broccoli lover could easily say "there are many other things that are also good for you."


Which I say in the post above yours.

However, your analogy should be more like this:

It is kind of like saying "Oh you don't like being giving and being intimate? It makes you feel so good being intimate and giving pleasure to your partner in life." To which the selfish person says, "There are many other ways to feel better, like for instance, being selfish and not caring about his/her pleasure."

This is more accurate. And yes, I have a hard time understanding a thought process that prefers less intimacy in a marriage.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Sex is the only part of a romantic relationship that defines it as a relationship, as opposed to a friendship or being single. IMO, if there isn't a mutually acceptable frequency and quality of sex, there IS no romantic relationship.

Sex isn't difficult, just as doing dishes isn't "difficult." However, "duty" sex is seldom satisfying for long.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

People don't get married so they can eat broccoli or stretch with their spouses.

Barring medical issues and such, I tend to agree with the OP. When two people get married, they are agreeing to have sex with each other, and only with each other. For one spouse to just up and decide one day that they don't 'like' sex any more or something isn't a minor thing. It's HUGE. It isn't something to be selfish about. It should be a horrible thing to happen to them. To THEM - the LD one. It should make them feel horrible and they should want to do anything they possibly can to fix it or let their spouse go to find someone else to fulfill that need for them. 

Sex is NOT optional in a marriage.


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## wilderness (Jan 9, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> But I could easily say "oh well, everyone should stretch. It is soooo good for you! It is good for your sex life, good for your body, good for your workout. You all just don't know what you are missing if you don't stretch until you can do the splits....really this is THE best way to be healthy you all...you should do this for your spouse and yourself".
> 
> And everyone would say....?
> 
> ...


The only way this perspective works is if it also works for everything else. In other words, I am also not required to go to work in marriage if my values/opinions/feelings so dictate. I am not required to pay bills in marriage if my values/opinions/feelings so dictate. I am not required to do dishes in my marriage if my values/opinions/feelings so dictate. I am not required to take a shower if my values/opinions/feelings so dictate. Etc etc...

Spouses are either obligated towards one another, or they are not.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> And everyone would say....?
> 
> Some would say "who are you to tell me what is good for me?"
> 
> ...


Holy Moly, Faithful Wife. With this line of reasoning, what's the point of marriage?! I completely agree with OP.


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## Coldie (Jan 2, 2014)

Married but Happy said:


> Sex is the only part of a romantic relationship that defines it as a relationship, as opposed to a friendship or being single. IMO, if there isn't a mutually acceptable frequency and quality of sex, there IS no romantic relationship.
> 
> Sex isn't difficult, just as doing dishes isn't "difficult." However, "duty" sex is seldom satisfying for long.


Duty sex is a guilt term created by someone who didn't understand intimacy. How can I let a term like "duty sex" make sense in my mind when sex is about intimacy. And sex to me isn't always penetration. Kissing, oral, and just making out in general is also extremely important. The word "duty sex" was created by a broken spouse, that rather than understanding what love and intimacy is, sees sex as a job. The only person that should see sex as a job, is a hooker.

I really can't understand LD, and I guess it's hard for me to understand the terms used created by people who are lashing out because their spouses want to be intimate and for them it's work. If it's work to be intimate, or a duty, then your relationship is broken. Your love is broken.

Intimacy is not work or a duty, no matter how many times it's done between two people totally in love.

Anyone follow me or am I just ruffling feathers?


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## Coldie (Jan 2, 2014)

The term low drive is applied to sex drive. 

Let's call it what it is, Low Intimacy. LI? Because then it will be easier to fix.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

Faithful Wife said:


> But I could easily say "oh well, everyone should stretch. It is soooo good for you! It is good for your sex life, good for your body, good for your workout. You all just don't know what you are missing if you don't stretch until you can do the splits....really this is THE best way to be healthy you all...you should do this for your spouse and yourself".
> 
> And everyone would say....?
> 
> ...


You are talking about things that are personal. What someone should do for themselves (eat healthy, stretch, etc.). 

Sex is something you should do for your partner. Not for yourself.


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## Coldie (Jan 2, 2014)

Hope1964 said:


> People don't get married so they can eat broccoli or stretch with their spouses.
> 
> Barring medical issues and such, I tend to agree with the OP. When two people get married, they are agreeing to have sex with each other, and only with each other. For one spouse to just up and decide one day that they don't 'like' sex any more or something isn't a minor thing. It's HUGE. It isn't something to be selfish about. It should be a horrible thing to happen to them. To THEM - the LD one. It should make them feel horrible and they should want to do anything they possibly can to fix it or let their spouse go to find someone else to fulfill that need for them.
> 
> Sex is NOT optional in a marriage.


This reply gave me goose bumps. Wilderness gives me goosebumps. I just feel these opinions get drowned away on this forum and people try to justify a flaw. Once married, sex is just as much part of marriage as my attention. It was only "sacred" and something "withheld" because of religion, morals, and yes, even our laws. Once married, every single thing "against" sex in our lives is totally removed. 

Now, with that being said, does that mean sex isn't important as far as intimacy goes? No, sex is just as important as a kiss. A person should kiss their spouse each day as well. A spouse should give the proper attention to their spouse each day. A spouse should love their spouse each day. There is no such thing as "duty love" is there? Duty Attention? Duty Care? Duty Smile?

This has nothing to do with DRIVE. Do you selectively love? Selectively get intimate. Selectively give attention? A sex drive has nothing, and I mean NOTHING to do with intimacy and making your spouse feel loved and wanted. If your drive only leads you to orgasm once a month, that is okay. That's your drive. However, your drive should have NOTHING to do with sharing and being intimate with your soul mate and life partner.

Our way of thinking has been totally warped imo.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

I agree, but there is no simple easy answer. If your spouse up and decides that sex is no longer among the list of weekly priorities, then your only option is to find out what has gone wrong and how to fix it. If it is up fixable, you have two choices, suck it up, or leave.

If my husband decided he was bored with working and paying the bills, I'd have to investigate what was really happening to cause this. Try to motivate him to fix the problem and if that didn't work, I would have to deal with it or leave him behind.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

wilderness said:


> The only way this perspective works is if it also works for everything else. In other words, I am also not required to go to work in marriage if my values/opinions/feelings so dictate. I am not required to pay bills in marriage if my values/opinions/feelings so dictate. I am not required to do dishes in my marriage if my values/opinions/feelings so dictate. I am not required to take a shower if my values/opinions/feelings so dictate. Etc etc...
> 
> Spouses are either obligated towards one another, or they are not.


No one is obligated to do ANYTHING.

The problem is that some of those who feel wronged by the ones who "didn't fulfill their obligations" don't use the ONLY weapon they actually have....divorce.

So what I am saying is....

If your spouse doesn't agree that sex (or anything) is their obligation....you can try to change their mind, but if they don't make that change, then your recourse is DIVORCE.

Discussing it with internet strangers gets you no closer to changing your spouse from LD to HD.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Coldie said:


> Now, with that being said, does that mean sex isn't important as far as intimacy goes? No, sex is just as important as a kiss. A person should kiss their spouse each day as well. A spouse should give the proper attention to their spouse each day. A spouse should love their spouse each day. There is no such thing as "duty love" is there? Duty Attention? Duty Care? Duty Smile?
> 
> This has nothing to do with DRIVE. Do you selectively love? Selectively get intimate. Selectively give attention? A sex drive has nothing, and I mean NOTHING to do with intimacy and making your spouse feel loved and wanted. If your drive only leads you to orgasm once a month, that is okay. That's your drive. *However, your drive should have NOTHING to do with sharing and being intimate with your soul mate and life partner.*
> 
> Our way of thinking has been totally warped imo.


The bolded part is true...and many LD people could tell you that for them, having sex isn't intimate at all, it is for some of them a painfully awkward and unfulfilling act that they wish were never invented.

So if that is their experience, you want them to just suck it up and do it anyway?

Or you could say "well it is their obligation" to which they could say "ok I have failed, divorce me"....which is, as I said, the only recourse any married person has.


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## wilderness (Jan 9, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> No one is obligated to do ANYTHING.
> 
> The problem is that some of those who feel wronged by the ones who "didn't fulfill their obligations" don't use the ONLY weapon they actually have....divorce.
> 
> ...


The other recourse is to stop doing things that you don't feel like, either. If I was a man with a family I would quit my job and delay as long as possible. That way I could have a better shot at custody.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Coldie said:


> The term low drive is applied to sex drive.
> 
> Let's call it what it is, Low Intimacy. LI? Because then it will be easier to fix.


Hey, that is a great term.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

wilderness said:


> The other recourse is to stop doing things that you don't feel like, either. If I was a man with a family I would quit my job and delay as long as possible. That way I could have a better shot at custody.


Yes that is something many people try...and usually it does not have the effect of making the LD suddenly want sex with you. So what would be the point of this? Just to torture them because they don't want sex with you? I mean, go ahead with that...but don't expect it to make someone horny.


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

Coldie said:


> I am very confused reading these forums. A lot of the times I see the letters HD and LD, which I understand is high drive and low drive. I see threads about two people trying to be compatible and how it's hard to make a LD really care about sex.
> 
> I have a few questions for the members here:
> 
> ...



When you get married, you are not your own anymore. That means the LD spouse must take care of their HD spouses needs and the HD spouse is to take care of their LD spouses needs. Neither is to be cruel, play games and deny the other.

Sex is a beautiful act between hubby and wiffee. Sex should never be a chore, pity or duty based.

All the things you've listed, I do on a regular basis around the house. But I agree, sex still for a LD spouse is so difficult.

Why doesn't the LD spouse go to the family Dr., get checked out? Maybe some meds are required? Maybe something is not right?

But the LD spouse not taking care of their HD spouses needs or even half way, is very selfish of them and they are very lucky to still be married.

Both hubbs and wifee should find each other hot and want sex with each other. If not, why did they get married? To be friends? Good room mates perhaps? Stay single is being LD is more important and not wanting to take care of their other halves needs.

I too am unsympathetic to spouses who feel sex is work, a chore, duty or other.

Not taking care of the other spouses needs usually leads to EA, PA, sexting, you name it. And they wonder why?!

My take on this, is each other, regardless if they're LD, AD, HD, are responsible out of love to take care of each others needs, period.


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

Coldie said:


> No exceptions, no compromise.
> 
> Life is too short to settle. Good luck you guys.
> 
> /ramble /rant /LDisBS


How about this for an exception? My W is LD because she is on estrogen inhibiting medication after two bouts with breast cancer.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Philat said:


> How about this for an exception? My W is LD because she is on estrogen inhibiting medication after two bouts with breast cancer.


And my brother who is a paraplegic.

Yet his girlfriend loves him very much, even with zero sex.

If every marriage and sex life has to look the same as was proposed by the OP, then how do these exceptions even exist?

Perhaps because we are NOT all the same and don't have the same values, sex drives, or motivations?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I am so sorry for your brother, FW. And so happy he and his girlfriend have such a great relationship.

You know, sex is not the only thing in a loving relationship. And your brother and his girlfriend prove it.


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

jld said:


> I am so sorry for your brother, FW. And so happy he and his girlfriend have such a great relationship.
> 
> You know, sex is not the only thing in a loving relationship. And your brother and his girlfriend prove it.


Yes. If OP acknowledges that there are forms of intimacy other than sex (which I don't see in the post, BTW), then all is well.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

And my brother had ALS, yet he and his GF remained very much in love till the end. Intimacy includes sex, but it is so much more than JUST sex.

I have a lot of sex with my husband, but intimacy...we're working on it.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> Intimacy includes sex, but it is so much more than JUST sex.


Thanks for saying that, AP. What an important message.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

You can have intimacy without sex.

You can have sex without intimacy.

You can have a marriage without intimacy or sex.

What you can't do is make someone else have the same values you have.


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## EntirelyDifferent (Nov 30, 2012)

I guess what confuses me is, as an LD spouse, I'm supposed to put out every time my HD spouse demands it, yet (according to threads here), "duty" sex or sex I'm not really into is an unforgivable sin?
Which one is it?

I have a much lower drive than he does... I will make that sacrifice for him, because I love him, but I'm not always going to be into it every time he wants it.


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## Coldie (Jan 2, 2014)

Philat said:


> How about this for an exception? My W is LD because she is on estrogen inhibiting medication after two bouts with breast cancer.


Congrats on your wife hopefully being in remission (I have a friend in the same situation -- my heart goes out to you and your wife). My comments were directed at two healthy people. As I said, if sex is a chore or duty, there is something wrong. In your case, you know what's wrong, she is on a pill that lowers her motivation to physically have sex. Hopefully you communicate and let her know that you still enjoy the intimacy of being together with her. Hopefully she can understand that. And not to be mean, but do you have a "drive" that makes you step up and totally take care of her? Do you have a "drive" to help her feel better each night? Yes, love. Love doesn't die with pills, sorry. You want her happy. She should want the same. Or maybe you totally do not want to be intimate knowing how she feels? If that is the case, neither of you want intimacy and there is no problem. Two people do not have to be intimate if they both are happy that way. 

Please do not mistake intimacy with the physical act of penetration feeling so good both people want to feel it.

Finding rare instances (like paraplegics) seems argumentative for the sake of being argumentative. I'll pass, as I feel it adds nothing to any of my points. If two people just "can't" have sex, hopefully they found replacements that are comparable to the intimacy a couple feels during sex. I am sure they do. As I've said, do not confuse intimacy with the physical act of penetration. I feel kissing is just as intimate as penetration and I am totally for two people kissing each day. Intimacy is an absolute must for a strong healthy relationship.


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## Coldie (Jan 2, 2014)

EntirelyDifferent said:


> I guess what confuses me is, as an LD spouse, I'm supposed to put out every time my HD spouse demands it, yet (according to threads here), "duty" sex or sex I'm not really into is an unforgivable sin?
> Which one is it?
> 
> I have a much lower drive than he does... I will make that sacrifice for him, because I love him, but I'm not always going to be into it every time he wants it.


If you can explain to me "duty" love, "duty" attention, "duty" intimacy and I can understand it, I will try to understand "duty" sex.

For now, to me, that term was created to make spouses feel guilty for wanting their spouses "too much." It also is a term used to make others sympathetic for this selfish behavior of "I feel like sex is a job". There is no such thing as duty sex unless the relationship is broken. And the broken part is the person that feels sex/intimacy is a duty.

To have a healthy body, is hard work. Each day you get up and do things others consider work.... like exercise. Each day you eat right, regardless of knowing you enjoy junk food or a sugar drink. Your healthy body depends on things that others may see as a duty, but you see it as a way to keep your body healthy. Your attitude is positive. You're proud of your body and you take pride in the hard work it takes to keep your body in proper form. Your marriage is the same way. In order to keep it healthy, it's hard work. Does that mean being intimate is a duty? Maybe to others that do not understand your goal of wanting a healthy relationship. But to you, it's worth it. A happy partner is a happy life. You can walk on the treadmill and complain, or you can walk on that treadmill and tell yourself all the positive reasons you are staying healthy. That's your choice. 

However, not exercising leads to you just flat out being unhealthy. Not exercising intimacy in a marriage is the same. What type of relationship do you want?

If you feel sex is a duty, stay single. You'll never have to worry about it again. If you are saying you want everything from a relationship except that duty sex part, I am saying that's selfish.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Married but Happy said:


> Sex is the only part of a romantic relationship that defines it as a relationship, as opposed to a friendship or being single. IMO, if there isn't a mutually acceptable frequency and quality of sex, there IS no romantic relationship.


So wait a minute - people who wait until marriage to have sex aren't in a romantic relationship during their engagement?


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## Coldie (Jan 2, 2014)

Cletus said:


> So wait a minute - people who wait until marriage to have sex aren't in a romantic relationship during their engagement?


They still eventually want to have sex but choose to wait. They also plan having sex on their wedding night. So, sex and intimacy is still very much apart of their romantic relationship.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

So FW, should Coldie threaten D? Or BB in the other thread?


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

Thank you, Coldie. She is 5+ years cancer-free, but will remain on this medication the rest of her life (unless something new and better comes along). We still have sex, but she does not want it as frequently as she used to. We are certainly intimate in many other ways. You have clarified your OP somewhat, but what you say here: 



Coldie said:


> Please do not mistake intimacy with the physical act of penetration feeling so good both people want to feel it.


doesn't jibe with this from your OP:

_Sex is intimacy and if your significant other is not being intimate with you they are neglecting you. Not kind of, not "its a compromise", not it's just hard for a low drive person to get it.... no. They are neglecting you. _

I was reacting to the latter.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Faithful Wife said:


> If your spouse doesn't agree that sex (or anything) is their obligation....you can try to change their mind, but if they don't make that change, then your recourse is DIVORCE.
> 
> Discussing it with internet strangers gets you no closer to changing your spouse from LD to HD.


Absolutely. Rebelling against your God's commands to remain married for life, giving up your wealth, seeing your children every other weekend, continuing to support the custodial parent (under threat of prison), and permanently harming your children so as to avoid any moral judgments about selfish spouses is absolutely the way to go. :scratchhead:


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

EntirelyDifferent said:


> I guess what confuses me is, as an LD spouse, I'm supposed to put out every time my HD spouse demands it, yet (according to threads here), "duty" sex or sex I'm not really into is an unforgivable sin?
> Which one is it?
> 
> I have a much lower drive than he does... I will make that sacrifice for him, because I love him, but I'm not always going to be into it every time he wants it.


No one has ever argued that a LD spouse must have sex every single time the HD spouse initiates. Even two HD spouses don't do that.

And yes, "duty sex" gets a bad rap. But folks don't mean having sex when the LD spouse doesn't start in the mood. If your having duty sex with your husband entails accepting his advances when you're not in the mood, and then enjoying the experience and making sure he enjoys the experience, then good for you. You're behaving like an adult.

If your having duty sex involves you loudly sighing, rolling your eyes, refusing to participate, trying to replicate a human blow-up doll, and basically trying to humiliate your husband for wanting to have sex with his wife, then you're doing it wrong. You're behaving like a child who only wants to take and never give in your marriage.

It's the second kind of sex that people get worked up about. It sounds like you engage in the first kind of sex. Good for you.


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## Coldie (Jan 2, 2014)

Philat said:


> Thank you, Coldie. She is 5+ years cancer-free, but will remain on this medication the rest of her life (unless something new and better comes along). We still have sex, but she does not want it as frequently as she used to. We are certainly intimate in many other ways. You have clarified your OP somewhat, but what you say here:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I still stand by that last statement. If you have found a replacement for sex and you are happy, there is no neglect. If you have openly communicated that for you sex is something you need with your wife to feel wanted and needed, and she did not respond accordingly, then there is a neglect issue. Pills do not stop love. You took care of her when she needed it. There was no physical drive, you just wanted the person you loved happy and comfortable. Your wife should want the same, even without the physical drive to have intercourse.

Sex is intimacy. The drive issue is not a factor. That means she was only having sex with you before because she was the one who wanted sex. Now that she no longer has that physical drive, sex is not important. That is selfish. If YOUR drive is still there, and you NEED this intimacy, it's neglect on her part not keeping you happy.

However, this all depends on if you even want sex or intimate moments with your wife to begin with. If not, what's the issue? Passionate kissing is just as intimate as physical sex in my opinion. If you wife won't lay with you for 10 and 20 minutes, just kissing, maybe penetration without an orgasm, then there is a problem. Take the "orgasm" out of the equation then sex just becomes hugging nude and pure intimacy. Noone feels used.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Coldie said:


> The term low drive is applied to sex drive.
> 
> Let's call it what it is, Low Intimacy. LI? Because then it will be easier to fix.


You can have a lot of emotional and even physical intimacy, but little or no sex. To someone who wants sex as an expression of intimacy, it won't be sufficient.

Low Intimacy =/= Low Sex Drive


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## Coldie (Jan 2, 2014)

Philat, there are variables. I spoke above as if I knew you and your wife, so I have no idea if she neglects you or had sex because she had this drive to have sex. I apologize if I am out of line.

My wife was LD, but still had a very high intimacy need. Therefore, she enjoyed making me happy and loved just feeling close to me. It has kept us extremely close for a very long time. A pill didn't make her LD, she was LD because she just didn't care about sex. It was something she could totally do without, physically. She had history issues with sex, a bad father, etc. There were variables. However, she loved cuddling, being close during a movie, holding hands in public, and yes, she enjoyed having sex with me because she knew it made me feel like I was melting into her and becoming one person. This motivated her, even without a drive.

A low drive does not mean low intimacy. A low drive with low intimacy is total neglect.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Cletus said:


> So wait a minute - people who wait until marriage to have sex aren't in a romantic relationship during their engagement?


They still have the desire and intention to have sex when their preconditions are met, even if they are not having it presently.

There is one exception, and that's when neither wants sex but both want the other emotional intimacy of a romantic relationship. I usually talk about typical scenarios when I post, not the unusual or pathological - unless that's the topic.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

PHTlump said:


> *No one has ever argued that a LD spouse must have sex every single time the HD spouse initiates. Even two HD spouses don't do that.
> 
> And yes, "duty sex" gets a bad rap. But folks don't mean having sex when the LD spouse doesn't start in the mood. If you're having duty sex with your husband entails accepting his advances when you're not in the mood, and then enjoying the experience and making sure he enjoys the experience, then good for you. You're behaving like an adult.
> 
> ...


*Extremely well presented, Lump!*


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## Coldie (Jan 2, 2014)

Married but Happy said:


> You can have a lot of emotional and even physical intimacy, but little or no sex. To someone who wants sex as an expression of intimacy, it won't be sufficient.
> 
> Low Intimacy =/= Low Sex Drive



=/= neglect


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## ClimbingTheWalls (Feb 16, 2013)

I find this thread refreshing and agree with the views of the OP.

I was not surprised to see the point being made that there are those who remain happily married to a partner who is no longer able to have sex.

I think that can happen if the couple is emotionally intimate and they know that their partner would be physically intimate if they could.

I think there are a lot of situations where the LD spouse could, but won't. That really eats away at intimacy.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Coldie said:


> For now, to me, that term was created to make spouses feel guilty for wanting their spouses "too much." It also is a term used to make others sympathetic for this selfish behavior of "I feel like sex is a job". * There is no such thing as duty sex unless the relationship is broken. And the broken part is the person that feels sex/intimacy is a duty*.


While I have sympathy for your main point, I'd be careful with this line of reasoning. A person in this position (man OR woman) shouldn't discount the possibility of their own culpability in creating the situation. Sometimes it really IS your own fault, or at least partially.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

Fozzy said:


> While I have sympathy for your main point, I'd be careful with this line of reasoning. A person in this position (man OR woman) shouldn't discount the possibility of their own culpability in creating the situation. Sometimes it really IS your own fault, or at least partially.


true but all too often there was no comunication and the high drive partner has asked and tried a bunch of stuff to only hear that they don't know why they are low drive. When if fact they do know but do knot comunicate and are just happy controling the marriage through sex.


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## Coldie (Jan 2, 2014)

Fozzy said:


> While I have sympathy for your main point, I'd be careful with this line of reasoning. A person in this position (man OR woman) shouldn't discount the possibility of their own culpability in creating the situation. Sometimes it really IS your own fault, or at least partially.


I can agree to this.

If the person who needs the intimacy / sex is not being attentive, not being loving, and not giving his/her counterpart what they need, I'd say the problem lies in communication. 

If the communication is fixed and the "low intimacy" partner still feels like sex is a duty, it's not hard to figure out what is broken. However, I've said multiple times *I do not believe in duty sex, just like I do not believe in duty love. It's a term used to create guilt, and that's how I feel.*


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

Coldie said:


> I can agree to this.
> 
> If the person who needs the intimacy / sex is not being attentive, not being loving, and not giving his/her counterpart what they need, I'd say the problem lies in communication.
> 
> If the communication is fixed and the "low intimacy" partner still feels like sex is a duty, it's not hard to figure out what is broken. However, I've said multiple times *I do not believe in duty sex, just like I do not believe in duty love. It's a term used to create guilt, and that's how I feel.*


Adults have many duties. It is my duty to provide for my family. It is my duty to teach my kids strong morals. It is my duty to protect my wife.

It is my duty to ensure she enjoys her life and is happy. 

She has duties too!!!!


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## Coldie (Jan 2, 2014)

I'll never consider intimacy a duty, and if she thinks it is, that's the problem.

We have duties, but intimacy isn't one of them.


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## Mestupxtian (Mar 30, 2012)

I don't think frequent intimacy is a pre-requisite for a happy marriage. We all have our own internal definitions of what we consider "frequent" or LD or HD. The idea that two people, much less to different genders, are going to have the same drive at any given time in their relationship is ridiculous, especially when you consider the LD and HD are relative (i.e. when evaluating the drive of two independent people, they are almost never the same).

I would say that I am the HD spouse. I am in my late 20's as is my wife. I could go 2-3 times a day on most days, but my wife could do once a day, maybe every two days. Is she wrong for not wanting to be intimate with me multiple times a day? Of course not. Do I consider myself neglected? Hell no. I am in a very highly sexual phase in life and she isn't. The balance will likely change in 5-10 years.

Sex isn't an aspect of a relationship, but rather, a barometer of the health of the relationship. If one spouse is feeling unfairly treated or if there is a perceived imbalance, then the intimacy suffers, especially if the wronged spouse is the LD ATM. I have been on both sides of this in our 11 years. Hence the reason that make-up sex is typically more passionate than the norm.

I'd say that it is all about expectations. If you expect to get sex whenever you want it and you are the HD spouse, then you are going to be let down. If you are the LD spouse and you expect that you can get by in the relationship with intimacy only once or twice a week, then you will both suffer. Relationships and marriage are about coming to a happy medium and that may mean that the HD spouse doesn't always get sexual intimacy every time they want.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Coldie said:


> I'll never consider intimacy a duty, and if she thinks it is, that's the problem.
> 
> We have duties, but intimacy isn't one of them.


Why not?

I score something like 80% introverted on a popular personality inventory. I do not need very much intimacy in my life at all to get along. 

My wife needs more than I do - much more, in fact. It is most certainly a duty that I provide some of that need, even when (as is often the case) I REALLY don't want to do it. If that's not the definition of a duty, then I don't know what is.


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## Coldie (Jan 2, 2014)

Good points Mestupxtian.

There is no neglect if you don't feel neglected. You can have 0 intimacy forever, if you both are happy with that. No argument here. 

My thread is in regards to a spouse openly communicating that they need this quality time, this intimacy, and it being ignored.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Mestupxtian said:


> I don't think frequent intimacy is a pre-requisite for a happy marriage.


It's easy to think that when your "compromise" is getting sex every day or two. Try changing your frequency from 200 times a year to 10 times a year and let me know how happy your marriage is.



> I could go 2-3 times a day on most days, but my wife could do once a day, maybe every two days. ... I am in a very highly sexual phase in life and she isn't.


Wanting sex every day or two is NOT a highly sexual phase in life? Precious. :rofl:



> I'd say that it is all about expectations. If you expect to get sex whenever you want it and you are the HD spouse, then you are going to be let down. If you are the LD spouse and you expect that you can get by in the relationship with intimacy only once or twice a week, then you will both suffer. Relationships and marriage are about coming to a happy medium and that may mean that the HD spouse doesn't always get sexual intimacy every time they want.


I have read hundreds of threads describing both men and women being sexually neglected by their spouses. I have yet to read a single one where the complaint was that the LD spouse didn't comply with the HD partner's sexual advances 100% of the time. That is a problem LITERALLY never.

The standard withholding thread on these boards is usually about a couple who has sex twice a month, or less. And the LD spouse is usually pissy about having that much sex. That's where we should focus our discussion.


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## Coldie (Jan 2, 2014)

Cletus said:


> Why not?
> 
> I score something like 80% introverted on a popular personality inventory. I do not need very much intimacy in my life at all to get along.
> 
> My wife needs more than I do - much more, in fact. It is most certainly a duty that I provide some of that need, even when (as is often the case) I REALLY don't want to do it. If that's not the definition of a duty, then I don't know what is.


I am also an introvert and probably score around the same. As an introvert, I do not like being in crowds or having multiple "close" friends. However, I did look for a single person to really bond with. As an introvert, I want to almost become "one" with that person. To understand her every thought, her every experience, and to dig deep in her mind to connect us as much as possible. I feel like because I am an introvert, intimacy and sex means so much more. I can be 100% okay with having sex and not orgasming, because I enjoy the bonding moreso than the orgasm. Everything I've said is because of my introvert personality.

If intimacy is duty for you, and your wife notices, I'd suggest you work on that. What else do you want me to say? If your wife doesn't care or notice, then you just want to argue my points. I can't argue with every single person why to them intimacy is a duty or work, I can only say it shouldn't be. If 20 to 30 minutes a day is too much intimacy for you to handle or that's a chore for you, then I just hope your wife doesn't mind. 

Good questions:

Is there a limit on intimacy and what is the point where intimacy is too much?
What if your spouse wants intimacy / sex 10 times a day. Would you be neglecting your spouses needs if you only did it once?

Good questions. I can't answer them. I put from the beginning, setting aside 20 to 30 minutes a day for intimacy in order to maintain a healthy relationship is just as important as jogging or exercising 20 to 30 minutes a day to maintain a healthy heart. 

There is no rule or limit to excess, but too much intimacy seems a lot less detrimental than not enough eh?


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

You made the statement



> We have duties, but intimacy isn't one of them.


I presumed you were referring to the collective "we", as in all of us, and I just fundamentally disagree. 

It is a duty we should take on gladly, with as much enthusiasm as we can muster, and with genuine regard for the feelings of our spouse. I classify anything that I do for the benefit of my spouse that I would not do for myself as a duty. But then I don't consider duty to be a pejorative. In many ways, I prefer the Asian ethic of duty to family and others over the Western regard for self.


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## Coldie (Jan 2, 2014)

We, as in those of us who want more intimacy.


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## askari (Jun 21, 2012)

I have read the first page of this and 'skimmed' this page so forgive me if this now loses relevence...

There are some people in this world who simply don't like sex, aren't interested in it and just don't understand its importance to others.

I am not interested in football (soccer) in the slightest bit, nor can I understand why people go out and buy shirts of their team or get so excited about a match. I'm like..duh! Why?

If my wife was crazy about football I would go along for her but only as and when I really had to.

My wife simply isn't interested in sex...because its not important to her she cant understand why its important to others, including me.

You can't get a leopard to change its spots.


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## Coldie (Jan 2, 2014)

askari said:


> I have read the first page of this and 'skimmed' this page so forgive me if this now loses relevence...
> 
> There are some people in this world who simply don't like sex, aren't interested in it and just don't understand its importance to others.
> 
> ...


This reply saddens me. Seriously.

Why defend this behavior and compare your need for intimacy to a football game? 

Intimacy is not leopard spots and it most certainly can change when you communicate and let your significant other know how important it is to you. This isn't an issue of leopard spots or the person who will never change, this is an issue of you allowing her to not make you happy.

If you are happy, then nevermind. I can't argue with someone who is happy, even while they do not get the intimacy they need.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I don't know what is so hard to understand about it.

We are not all the same, and thank god.

I know happily married couples that don't have that much sex, for a variety of reasons (besides my brother's example). When two LD spouses are together, it can be a very happy union with lots of intimacy.

Sex does NOT equal intimacy for everyone.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

I have no issues with couples who are BOTH happy with their sex life, no matter how frequent or infrequently they have sex. Same for their 'intimacy life'. If they're both happy, fine. Also, my comments in this thread do not apply to situations where one partner has medical or other issues at play. As long as there are steps being taken to do whatever IS possible between spouses.

The issue I have is with spouses who are NOT both happy, and especially where one spouse is unhappy and the other doesn't care or doesn't do whatever they can to overcome the problem.

Askari, if you are happy with what you described, then this thread doesn't apply to you. If you aren't, though, why on earth would you just accept it??

I did not get married to watch football with my husband. I did not vow to forsake all others with respect to football. I vowed to forsake all others with respect to sex and intimacy. The fact I took that vow means that I DO have a duty to hold up my end of the bargain (and so does he of course, but I'll just focus on me). If you don't like the word 'duty' then use something else if you like. However you phrase it, when two people get married, unless they agreed beforehand to an open marriage or celibacy or something else unusual, being married cannot be separated from having sex/intimacy. It's inherent. It's part of the deal - it's the default position. When two people are married we assume they are having sex with each other and only with each other. It's implied by the word 'marriage'.

When the sex or the intimacy doesn't happen, and someone gets hurt by it, that is a problem. Again, I don't think this thread was started for the purpose of discussing couples who are both LD and happy, or couples who are struggling together through health issues. This thread is about women or men who just up and decide one day after they're married that the sex is gonna stop because they just don't feel like doing it any more. THAT is the problem, and it's a huge one. Trying to justify it is on par with trying to justify cheating. It's a choice one partner has made, that the other has had NO say in, that is devastating to a marriage.


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## Coldie (Jan 2, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> I don't know what is so hard to understand about it.
> 
> We are not all the same, and thank god.
> 
> ...


My entire thread IS for those who do feel that sex equals intimacy. Are we straight on this yet?

Noone said it was for everyone, your brother, or the "happily married" couples you know that don't have much sex. However, I do find it hilarious anyone can post and say they know happily married couples that don't have much sex. I mean, I know you like to play devils advocate, but really? lol. I suppose that's common for happily married couples to brag about how much sex they do not have and they're still totally happy and all. Ha.

I already responded to responses that seem more argumentative than productive. If they have both found things that replace intimacy (like I said when you brought up your brother) and they both are happy, okay. This thread is not about them. This thread is about one half of the couple who isn't happy, that DOES think sex is intimacy, and wants more of it. 

Like, I really can't argue with couples you do know that are totally happy, and don't have sex. That isn't my argument, that isn't what my thread is about, and that doesn't concern me. I hope those couples remain totally happy forever, with or without whatever they have replaced with sex and intimacy.


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## Coldie (Jan 2, 2014)

Hope1964 said:


> I have no issues with couples who are BOTH happy with their sex life, no matter how frequent or infrequently they have sex. Same for their 'intimacy life'. If they're both happy, fine. Also, my comments in this thread do not apply to situations where one partner has medical or other issues at play. As long as there are steps being taken to do whatever IS possible between spouses.
> 
> The issue I have is with spouses who are NOT both happy, and especially where one spouse is unhappy and the other doesn't care or doesn't do whatever they can to overcome the problem.
> 
> ...


THANK YOU!

I have had to say this numerous times. People want to argue semantics instead of what the issue really is. "Look at how good I argue and can make counter points to things you say!" 

I really care less. If you are in love, truly in love, you take care of your significant others needs. You don't take care of your own "don't needs" because it feels like a duty. Nothing would ever get done if that was the case. Which is why it's totally selfish, spoiled, and self-centered. That's all.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Gotcha, I didn't realize that any opinion that didn't match yours wasn't welcomed...I get it now.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Faithful Wife said:


> Gotcha, I didn't realize that any opinion that didn't match yours wasn't welcomed...I get it now.


Good lord. Are you actually READING these posts, or are you just trying to be difficult?!?!


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Do you ACTUALLY THINK that it's perfectly fine for a spouse to just arbitrarily withhold intimacy or sex or both from their partner??? Truly??


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

If you want to speak respectfully to me and treat me like a human being who is worthy of discussion, I'd be happy to answer. But being that it is very clear you don't intend any of that....have fun.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Gotcha, I didn't realize that any opinion that didn't match yours wasn't welcomed...I get it now.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

I think, Coldie, that many are getting hung up on the sex = intimacy you wrote in the first post. The way it reads, to some, anyway, is that if you're not having sex, then you're not being intimate. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. Period, end of sentence, the end. Further into the thread, you did acknowledge that yes, there are, in fact, other ways to be intimate, and they don't HAVE to culminate in having sex... and that is correct. 

Now, I have seen Hope argue the case that if there is some medical issue, or another issue, that prevents sex, then that is understandable. You have quoted her, and liked her posts, but I don't recall reading where you actually stated that yes, those are exceptions. I, for one, do agree with her.


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## Coldie (Jan 2, 2014)

I apologize if I spoke to anyone not like a human being. I don't mind any opinions, but some comments just feel argumentative.

That's my opinion.


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

Maricha75 said:


> I think, Coldie, that many are getting hung up on the sex = intimacy you wrote in the first post. The way it reads, to some, anyway, is that if you're not having sex, then you're not being intimate.


Yes, that's how I read it. This from a later post, however, seems to be more the OP's point:

_A low drive does not mean low intimacy. A low drive with low intimacy is total neglect. _

Which I can agree with.


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## Adeline (Jan 24, 2014)

this is going to sound crazy coming from a marriage that has been sexless for basically a year, but sex was never something that we argued about. Ever. Not even now. That both makes me wish for the old days when things were "normal," and sad that it is now so accepted by both of us because we don't expect it from one another at all given the circumstances. Dang I miss sex...

Anyways, it's like that saying... something like sex is only 10 percent of a happy marriage until you're not having it then it's 90 percent... it's something more eloquent than that, but I forget. Anyways... "duty" sex keeps getting brought up and I'm starting to think that that was a good label for what I had been doing a lot of the times, but completely willingly. It's not that I necessarily had a low drive, but sometimes just the excitement of giving myself to him and knowing he'd be turned on and excited as well was enough, and I think maybe even happened more times than when I was actually in the mood (as in "horny" I guess). I pretty much made sure that we had sex once a week at least, and I didn't look at it like a chore, but rather just a fun activity to do together I guess. Throw on some lingerie, look hot, that in and of itself was fun for me, and knowing that he would always oblige was rewarding. I loved doing that for him. Of course there were times where I wanted it because I myself needed to get off, but yeah, it didn't always need to be the case for me to want to be intimate with him. And if he ever initiated and I was both not in the mood and also just physically tired, I would always a least "assist" him in getting off, even if it was just me laying there and him going on my chest (blush). 

I never rejected him and he never rejected me. Sex was the *easiest * thing in our relationship, without a doubt. And now it's completely vanished. Likely because of the lack of emotional intimacy. How could we be so in tune with that one area of our life, one that many struggle with and yet we somehow didn't, and yet everything else fell apart? I don't know, I felt like I was going somewhere with this but now I forget haha I guess maybe that sex can't necessarily prevent a lack of intimacy.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Adeline said:


> sex can't necessarily prevent a lack of intimacy.


Bingo. 

Intimacy, however, goes a LONG way to preventing lack of sex.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

PHTlump said:


> And yes, "duty sex" gets a bad rap. But folks don't mean having sex when the LD spouse doesn't start in the mood. If your having duty sex with your husband entails accepting his advances when you're not in the mood, and then enjoying the experience and making sure he enjoys the experience, then good for you. You're behaving like an adult.
> 
> If your having duty sex involves you loudly sighing, rolling your eyes, refusing to participate, trying to replicate a human blow-up doll, and basically trying to humiliate your husband for wanting to have sex with his wife, then you're doing it wrong. You're behaving like a child who only wants to take and never give in your marriage.
> 
> It's the second kind of sex that people get worked up about. It sounds like you engage in the first kind of sex. Good for you.


Not every one feels that responding to HD spouses advances and developing desire is a normal sexual response. Most especially the LD person. That seems to be the major disconnect between couples with different sex drives. 

The LD person does not always realize that needing time to warm up is as normal as their HD parter not needing a warm-up period. Some respond with resistance because they feel abnormal. 

I've read the comment so many times from confused HD spouses, "but my spouse enjoys it when we start having sex". It's a normal scenario for a person who needs a longer warm up time. 

Chronic rejection of the HD spouse is a symptom of lack of understanding. The eye rolling is cruel, dehumanizing and humiliating. It should be addressed as such. 

Too bad that information about different types of sexual response is not part of sex education. The instant arousal sexual response is taken to be the only normal, with ample evidence to the contrary. You would think that human intelligence would be applied to figuring this one out.


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## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

Married but Happy said:


> Sex is the only part of a romantic relationship that defines it as a relationship, as opposed to a friendship or being single. IMO, if there isn't a mutually acceptable frequency and quality of sex, there IS no romantic relationship.
> 
> Sex isn't difficult, just as doing dishes isn't "difficult." However, "duty" sex is seldom satisfying for long.


I agree. What else would draw a person to a romantic relationship? What are people supposed to be looking forward to when they get married, watching tv together? Are people supposed to think sex will last about a year and then the real fun begins? Then we can start baking bread together and going to museums. Wheeeeeeeew!


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Coldie said:


> *I am also an introvert and probably score around the same. As an introvert, I do not like being in crowds or having multiple "close" friends. However, I did look for a single person to really bond with. As an introvert, I want to almost become "one" with that person. To understand her every thought, her every experience, and to dig deep in her mind to connect us as much as possible. I feel like because I am an introvert, intimacy and sex means so much more. I can be 100% okay with having sex and not orgasming, because I enjoy the bonding moreso than the orgasm. Everything I've said is because of my introvert personality.*


 I enjoyed reading what you said here...I will speak for my husband...he, too, is an introvert...he'd even call himself a bit of a Loner before he met me...and what you just wrote would describe his feelings to a T...

..and I am so very very thankful for his being geared THIS WAY....as I feel the same..to a high degree....it's very important to both of us.. Intimacy - *and SEX *...it goes hand in hand in marriage...it puts the spark, the thrill, an anticipation of pure pleasure, and feeling greatly loved ....there is no greater satisfaction or "high" we feel outside of this particular intimacy....as getting emotionally wrapped up in each other IN THIS WAY... the deepest way.



> * If you are in love, truly in love, you take care of your significant others needs.*


 Me & mine hasn't always had the same sex drive....pretty typical... for 19 yrs his was higher... we missed each other for reasons a little different than the norm...we all have our individual stories I guess.....we didn't really talk about







...we were very satisfied...he just wanted *more* of that... but didn't want to rock the boat so to speak.. feeling he had it better than most - as I always initiated...

... then we had a switch 5 yrs ago....and my drive went through the roof... WOW...what was happening to ME....I was a little different over my husband......I went out of my way to turn him ON... I lived around his every possible erection....at his beck & call.... read books on how to please a man..... (one could call me selfish as I wanted mine but to take him with me)....he wasn't exactly complaining even if he couldn't keep up....

Had a few fights along the way cause I didn't like the fact my sex drive was higher than his....this really bothered me for a time, I started questioning his desire...Honestly I was over-reacting... my hormones was getting the best of me...during that time..

This thread was born out of one of those arguments.... I think you might like it...

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-ma...allowing-our-partner-turn-us-love-making.html


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## Coldie (Jan 2, 2014)

Maricha75 said:


> I think, Coldie, that many are getting hung up on the sex = intimacy you wrote in the first post. The way it reads, to some, anyway, is that if you're not having sex, then you're not being intimate. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. Period, end of sentence, the end. Further into the thread, you did acknowledge that yes, there are, in fact, other ways to be intimate, and they don't HAVE to culminate in having sex... and that is correct.
> 
> Now, I have seen Hope argue the case that if there is some medical issue, or another issue, that prevents sex, then that is understandable. You have quoted her, and liked her posts, but I don't recall reading where you actually stated that yes, those are exceptions. I, for one, do agree with her.


Hello Maricha, I am glad you decided to participate. As a lurker I've always liked your replies.

You give your partner what he/she needs, not give yourself what you don't need. This is how I feel. 

Also, I believe I have responded numerous times saying medical issues can kill your drive, however it doesn't kill your love. You take care of your spouse, they take care of you. If one partner feels sex is intimacy and their way to bond with their spouse, the spouse calling it a "duty" or complaining is just selfish. The word is nothing but a guilt word which only exists to get sympathy (which this forum seems to have a lot of) so they can feel validated in being selfish. I personally find it unacceptable and couldn't live with someone like that. But that's me. I'm sorry if this logic rubs people the wrong way. If a couple has found other ways to replace sex with something else that makes them both happy, more power to them. The word "happy" doesn't mean a couple lives together for 30 years for the children. The word "happy" doesn't mean a couple survives and coexists. The word "happy" doesn't mean a couple gets along but are basically best friends with no sex life. Happy is happy. If one partner isn't getting what he/she needs because the other partner doesn't need the same thing, the partner not giving the other what he/she needs is totally self centered and selfish. One is a need, the other is a burden. One is intimacy, the other is a "I don't really ever need it again to be honest. It's not intimacy to me." One is something someone wants to feel to feel loved and accepted. The other is just a duty. One is something someone needs to feel bonded and united with their soulmate. The other cares less if they bond or unite in anyway and just wants to go to bed.

That's a problem. Something is broken. Justify it all you want, but that is the problem. People justify this behavior as if it's logical. It isn't. And if the only thing someone can come up with in response is, "Well, what if he/she isn't happy having sex/intimacy just because the partner needs intimacy." That person should be alone then. They can not have sex and be unintimate (is that a word) by themselves. That's really how I feel.

I can word this a million ways, but my point stays the same. And again, if couples are okay with medical issues, headaches, being tired, children, work, or anything stopping you and your spouse from setting aside 20 minutes a day for you both to spend, real, adult, intimate time together, then go for it. However, this reply is and has always been a rant directed towards spouses that find reasons NOT to give their significant other sex/intimacy when that is what the partner wants.

I've tried to stay away from topics that turn this thread into debates about couples that have reasons not to have sex. If both partners agree with the same things, then this topic is not about them.


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## askari (Jun 21, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> I don't know what is so hard to understand about it.
> 
> We are not all the same, and thank god.
> 
> ...


The above is very true. We are not all the same.

There ARE couples who are BOTH happy with sex, say, once a month. Many people may see that as a sexless marriage, but if they are BOTH happy with it, there is no problem.

The problem arises when one spouse sees sex as an important part of life & marriage but the other doesn't.

Most people will do something they don't like doing because their partners love it (eg bj's) - not all the time but certainly occasionally.
Afew people simply refuse. 
"I don't care if it means so much to you. I will not do it. End of discussion".

With my wife its not just sex....we live on a different continent to her parents...I suggest she ought to ring/skype them because she hasnt spoken to them for 4 weeks..."Why should I?....If there is anything wrong they will call me".....I reply..."Because they are your parents..."
She doesnt place any importance on it....If she doesnt want to do something she won't do it. Period.

Before you ask why I stay...I stay for the same reason as many husbands/fathers do....children.

My two children (14 & 12) mean more to me than sex, bj's etc etc. So I stay...for now.
I try to make the best of things...but hey, I'm human. TAM is an excellent forum to ask advice etc but also just to 'off load'...take a deep breath and continue fighting the good fight!


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## Coldie (Jan 2, 2014)

Adeline said:


> this is going to sound crazy coming from a marriage that has been sexless for basically a year, but sex was never something that we argued about. Ever. Not even now. That both makes me wish for the old days when things were "normal," and sad that it is now so accepted by both of us because we don't expect it from one another at all given the circumstances. Dang I miss sex...
> 
> Anyways, it's like that saying... something like sex is only 10 percent of a happy marriage until you're not having it then it's 90 percent... it's something more eloquent than that, but I forget. Anyways... "duty" sex keeps getting brought up and I'm starting to think that that was a good label for what I had been doing a lot of the times, but completely willingly. It's not that I necessarily had a low drive, but sometimes just the excitement of giving myself to him and knowing he'd be turned on and excited as well was enough, and I think maybe even happened more times than when I was actually in the mood (as in "horny" I guess). I pretty much made sure that we had sex once a week at least, and I didn't look at it like a chore, but rather just a fun activity to do together I guess. Throw on some lingerie, look hot, that in and of itself was fun for me, and knowing that he would always oblige was rewarding. I loved doing that for him. Of course there were times where I wanted it because I myself needed to get off, but yeah, it didn't always need to be the case for me to want to be intimate with him. And if he ever initiated and I was both not in the mood and also just physically tired, I would always a least "assist" him in getting off, even if it was just me laying there and him going on my chest (blush).
> 
> I never rejected him and he never rejected me. Sex was the *easiest * thing in our relationship, without a doubt. And now it's completely vanished. Likely because of the lack of emotional intimacy. How could we be so in tune with that one area of our life, one that many struggle with and yet we somehow didn't, and yet everything else fell apart? I don't know, I felt like I was going somewhere with this but now I forget haha I guess maybe that sex can't necessarily prevent a lack of intimacy.


No this is a great reply. It's great because it shows that the sex eventually did stop because the lack of emotional intimacy. I definitely get why. I would not want to have sex at all if I didn't love my wife. For me, the physical act means nothing. It's almost purely mental and my way to feel love, accepted, wanted, and appreciated. Again, some of us really do feel sex is total intimacy and denying us this, slowly destroys us. For a person to try to explain to me, especially my soulmate, that sex is a duty and they feel nothing. I comprehend that as I am not loved. Does my partner really want to try and convince me that I am loved and I just should stop wanting to be intimate? I should stop wanting to be intimate because they feel sex isn't intimate and means nothing? What type of logic is this? If that same person tries to explain how they love me and they are so into me, they thought about me all day, but they just don't want to be intimate with me? Kissing or sex? No, that's a duty.

.......

Really?

I feel like it's almost lying. Young minded. Stuck on the idea that sex is taboo and something you do on prom night. Never really understood marriage. Self centered. Got married for themselves or to show their friends, "look, I'm married" but not because they wanted a life partner. Spoiled. Never understood the idea that when you unite and become one as a couple, that also means you become one physically. You give her everything she needs within reason, and she does the same. You do not deny her of her needs because you don't need it. 

I also like how you openly admit that sex was the easiest thing in your relationship. This "duty" is probably the easiest thing you could give your partner who needs it, yet some people turn it into a power or ego thing. A way to control their partner, or punish them. Selfish.

Great reply, sorry things fell apart. Sex doesn't fix everything.


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## Coldie (Jan 2, 2014)

Catherine602 said:


> Not every one feels that responding to HD spouses advances and developing desire is a normal sexual response. Most especially the LD person. That seems to be the major disconnect between couples with different sex drives.
> 
> The LD person does not always realize that needing time to warm up is as normal as their HD parter not needing a warm-up period. Some respond with resistance because they feel abnormal.
> 
> ...


A lot of gems in this one. I have nothing to add.


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## askari (Jun 21, 2012)

Which came first...the chicken or the egg?

Which went first....the physical/sexual intimacy or the emotional intimacy?

I think the two go hand in hand. Start losing one and the other follows.

My wife and I are now miles apart.


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## ClimbingTheWalls (Feb 16, 2013)

askari said:


> Which came first...the chicken or the egg?
> 
> Which went first....the physical/sexual intimacy or the emotional intimacy?
> 
> I think the two go hand in hand. Start losing one and the other follows.


Yes.

Although I know the precise date we last had sex before a 3 1/2 year total drought I also know that sex had become very sporadic for a long time before that (hence knowing the final date!). Initially I thought that the lack of emotional intimacy died after the sex, but the more I think about it the more I realise that is not the case. It just all started slipping away together and I could not now say which went first, though if I had to place a bet I would say that the sex started dwindling first.

When we got it together again we both had concerns about the sex feeling awkward. We wondered if we should perhaps see if we could rebuild the emotional intimacy first. Thankfully we did not in the end go down that route, because I think we would still be struggling or even not be together. Hubby went to the doc and got pills for his ED and we just went for it. Yes, the first couple of occasions did feel rather stilted and forced. But hubby persevered in spite of that (he is the LD) and pretty soon all of the old flirting, and touching and cuddling came back. It was all growing at the same time.


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## Coldie (Jan 2, 2014)

If I changed everytime I said sex to kissing, I feel like this thread would have less issues. I mean as people we have just been totally conditioned to sympathize with "duty" sex or feeling bad for someone that feels it's just to hard to have sex with the love of their lives. Whether it be how we are raised to not think or talk about sex, or rape situations, noone should have sex if they don't want too. And I agree with that 100%.

However, kissing is different. Kissing isn't as taboo and we could kiss our first girlfriends/boyfriends. No big deal. You can't "rape" kiss either, I don't think. 

I really don't see any valid arguments why a couple couldn't kiss each day, if they were in love. Especially if one partner really needs it. Other than the random, "My husband got his jaw broke and it's wired shut....." or "his / her breath stinks!" You can argue anything, so by default you take the 5% of those responses and ignore them. You always have people that just want to argue.

The real questions and issues would remain: 

Do pills shut down your need to kiss and be intimate? Is there such thing as "duty" kissing or would everyone as a collective finally get, "Oh you are saying 'duty' kissing to make your partner feel guilty and you want sympathy from us?!?!?! I'm sorry selfish person, kissing isn't a duty! Your spouse just wants to feel loved!"

The good thing is, kissing and sex seems totally interchangeable, at least to those of us who enjoy sex for the intimacy of it just as much as the physical. You swap fluids, you are both inside each other, and you become one. It's very intmate and as an introvert, I feel extremely loved when I am really kissed. Not a peck, not 5 seconds, I am talking passionate kissing. 

If the other person also just didn't want to kiss because for them it isn't inimate, and it really is a duty. I'd say the problem lies in the person who apparently has a disconnect with intimacy or has traits of autism. Can you really say the person who wants intimacy is flaws or at fault? Or do you look at the person who is being selfish and is more into what they don't want, than what their partner needs.

Unsure if this clarifies anything or just puts me deeper in the hole of ranting just to rant.


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## DarkHoly (Dec 18, 2012)

All these people saying sex is just another little part of the picture. 

You won't be saying that once your partner go gets some from someone else.


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## Bobby5000 (Oct 19, 2011)

"Obviously written by someone who is HD and doesn't understand what someone who is truly LD feels like or goes through. It is kind of like saying "oh you're not into broccoli? But it is SO good for you, you simply MUST eat it even though you don't enjoy it." 

NO. If sex is what we are talking about, let's use an analogy that's on point. Bob says, I am a good husband, good father, provider, compliment my wife, and keep a clean house. What am I being negatively defined simply because I am having an affair with my secretary now and had an affair with one of the other mother's at the school last year. This is just sex, a small part of life, and quite frankly I am uncomfortable with my wife telling me what I should do with my own body. The fact that I like some variety does not make me a bad person. 

This is not me, but hopefully one can see the analogy. Because we do define a marriage in terms of fidelity, it is an important part.


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## hookares (Dec 7, 2011)

When the sex spigot gets shut off and locked for YOU, then it has likely as not to have been opened for one or more other individuals.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

That depends, is having sex your actual job?


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## poppyseed (Dec 22, 2013)

Bobby5000 said:


> This is not me, but hopefully one can see the analogy. Because we do define a marriage in terms of fidelity, it is an important part.


Yes. I hear you. I realize that this thread is really well intended and it's nice to read it.


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## Coldie (Jan 2, 2014)

hookares said:


> When the sex spigot gets shut off and locked for YOU, then it has likely as not to have been opened for one or more other individuals.


I am unsure what this comment means? If the sex spigot gets shut off, then I'd assume the intimacy went with it. You shouldn't stay in a relationship where you feel unwanted or are scrutinized for wanting intimacy.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

hookares (correct me if I am wrong) is suggesting your wife is having an affair.


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## Bobby5000 (Oct 19, 2011)

Let's sort out some issues. 

1. Many ld/hd desire marriages tend to be sadly unhappy. The wife says I am not in the mood therefore I do not want to do this. Husband, I don't like to go to your corporate functions, or clean up the bedroom, wife, I don't like going to sporting events, husband, I don't like going to your family functions. These self-centered contests don't work. 

I know a couple of older men who have entrenched habits and I'd suggest they don't remarry because it involves compromise. 

My wife likes to go out with some friends and have a few drinks to relax. I drive her and pick her up to prevent DWI issues. I don't get some tremendous pleasure driving but I am happy to do it because it is something that makes her happy. That's what happens in good marriages; in bad ones, the wife or husband's first question is do I like this, what's in it for me. 

2. LD people consistently confuse with doing this with desire. While I am sure most husbands would want an enthusiastic wife, most will settle for some acceptable intimacy 1 or 2 times a week. (don't confuse what you would want and what he wants). Probably many women with hormones raising start with a 7-8 desire in their 20's and drop to a 3-5 in their 40's with children and other responsibilty. Men basically do not change absent some medical problem. Good wives work with this and with some compromise on both sides, things work out. 

"The other recourse is to stop doing things that you don't feel like, either. If I was a man with a family I would quit my job and delay as long as possible... usually it does not have the effect of making the LD suddenly want sex with you. So what would be the point of this? ...but don't expect it to make someone horny. 


3. Many LD people could tell you that for them, having sex isn't intimate at all, it is for some of them a painfully awkward and unfulfilling act. If it is painful, then hopefully the person can go to a physician and address that. Alternatively things can be done to provide pleasure and avoid pain.  If they were asexual, and did not discuss that with their spouse, that was grossly unfair.


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## rubymoon (Jul 21, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> Obviously written by someone who is HD and doesn't understand what someone who is truly LD feels like or goes through.
> 
> It is kind of like saying "oh you're not into broccoli? But it is SO good for you, you simply MUST eat it even though you don't enjoy it." To which the non-broccoli lover could easily say "there are many other things that are also good for you."


I have a question: what does someone who is truly LD feels like or goes through? You are not getting physically hurt, tortured or demanded to commit hours a day to sex. So, what is it that LD is going through?

And if you don't like broccoli, then why in the world did you say "I Do" when asked to go to brocolli-land??? 

Sex is implied by marriage. You cannot do it, don't get married.


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## Centurions (Jan 31, 2013)

Indeed, if a person is LD, why get married and make your spouse miserable? Unless they marry a person that is also LD.

I would not tolerate this LD nonsense. I love sex, and believe sex is critical to a good marriage. I would never marry someone that is LD.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

Centurions said:


> Indeed, if a person is LD, why get married and make your spouse miserable? Unless they marry a person that is also LD.
> 
> I would not tolerate this LD nonsense. I love sex, and believe sex is critical to a good marriage. I would never marry someone that is LD.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Most people don't marry someone that is LD. They become LD. 

People change over time. For the first 5 years of our relationship, we were both HD. Then jobs, kids, etc. Sex can take a back seat. It remains important to one spouse but not so much to the other spouse.


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## Coldie (Jan 2, 2014)

SadSamIAm said:


> Most people don't marry someone that is LD. They become LD.
> 
> People change over time. For the first 5 years of our relationship, we were both HD. Then jobs, kids, etc. Sex can take a back seat. It remains important to one spouse but not so much to the other spouse.


Would you say that Low Drive really is just Low Intimacy? When the intimacy is high, even with a LD, the spouse thinks about spending time together. As things get less exciting and the intimacy dies off, their "low drive" takes over.


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## LoneHiker (Jun 30, 2010)

I only read the first page of this thread. So, I apologize if I missed out on most of the comments. Regarding the OP:

I have been in both situations: Once being a HD and in all other situations the LD person. Although, I hate these terms "HD" and "LD". One thing is ture: LD + HD in a relationship is always frustrating ... for both parties!

There are many things/reasons/situations that can lead to this imbalance and I am sure in the 7 pages of previous posts, most of these were mentioned. If you are not married then maybe it is wise to get out of a situation like this if you cannot see any happiness in the future. If you are married and no infidelity is going on, well, then the decision is more difficult and maybe the focus should shift to whatever else may make you happy inside the relationship. The only other alternative would be divorce and that, may friends, is not an easy route as well. Unfortunately, LD/HD mismatch is often a symptom of something much worse. Try to figure out what it is.

To the OP: I am an LD person (and I am male). It is hell. Intimacy "should" be natural, but for me it isn't. For people like me it is just as frustrating, because any relationship seems unsustainable. It is a gray world, without much colour. To just be intimate for the sake of it, is also not an option. If you don't feel it, it would be fake and you will just end up hurting people. If I am an HD person and my spouse must be willing for the sake of intimacy, I wouldn't enjoy it. I would feel selfish.

I am not sure what I actually wanted to say. That is maybe the point. What can you say as an LD: All is just so **** gray.


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## Xtine000 (Nov 14, 2012)

" Is sex worth more than my attention? Yes
Is sex worth more than me working 1 or 2 jobs to support my wife? Yes
Is sex worth more than being supportive around the house? Yes
Is sex worth more than my smile? Yes "

Sex is a major part of my life. If I wanted to have a sexless marriage I would set up home with a female or gay male friend and have the perfect home and partner. I've had offers.

When dating, if I even sense that there is some problem with sex, it's a deal breaker. In this day and age with women working and having money, men have taken up all kinds of bad behavior that previously women were doing - trying to date and marry for the money, trying to be "teases", trying to use their sexuality to get a better life outcome but not being into the person. I've had to learn to smell all of that and see the small signs of it before getting into a large trap. Sex is a big part of it. And if I should get into a relationship and the sex should wane? Bye Bye. And no boring, repetitive sex either. NO problems with penis, neck, tongue, jaw, wrists, fingers, back....no excuses. Either find a way around your problem and be into it or get out. I've learned that some people are just "sexy", and others are not. It doesn't even depend on appearence.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening rubymoon
I think that there may be several different types of feelings that get lumped together as LD. Some people want to want sex - they desire sex in an abstract way, but nothing really gets their motors running. The get into a relationship thinking that once they relax with the person that they love, desire will appear - and it doesn't. 

I think the other form of LD are people who are not interested in sex, and do not understand that other people are. You see comments from them of the "all he wants is sex", or "does she think we are still teenagers" form. They don't think sex is important to a relationship and don't understand why their partners think it is. 

Of course there are multiple types of HD as well. Some HD people really crave the intimacy and connection of sex. Some want the fun and physical sensations to share with a partner. Some just want to get off and don't care about their partner's desires. 

People who have experienced a partner with one form of HD or LD may project that onto discussions of others. 




rubymoon said:


> I have a question: what does someone who is truly LD feels like or goes through? You are not getting physically hurt, tortured or demanded to commit hours a day to sex. So, what is it that LD is going through?
> 
> And if you don't like broccoli, then why in the world did you say "I Do" when asked to go to brocolli-land???
> 
> Sex is implied by marriage. You cannot do it, don't get married.


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## Faeleaf (Jul 22, 2014)

Coldie said:


> /ramble /rant /LDisBS


Personally, I have a high sex drive and believe my husband and I are both lucky in this regard. Sex is a blessing to our marriage, but that's because we both love doing it, and love pleasing each other, and neither of us have triggers or hangups regarding sex that make it difficult.

Also, I feel tremendously sorry for spouses who are sexually frustrated and mismatched with a LD spouse. If I had a magic wand to wave and give you all sexually-charged spouses, I would do it in an instant. Your suffering is real; I see it, and I wish I could fix it, because that's a terrible place to be stuck.

In other words, I am completely pro-sex. I am on your side.

That said, this thread isn't likely to change anyone's mind, no matter how well argued. Standing on a street corner and yelling your dogma into the crowd doesn't convert the passers-by.

Minds are changed when people who are invested in listening to each other come together with *an open mind* and *a lot of empathy*, with a willingness to understand before asking to be understood. And I'll be totally frank here - you're not doing that. At least not in this thread. You argue your points in great detail, but give no credence at all to the opposing views. You admit as much repeatedly.

You are unlikely to prompt your spouse to about-face on an issue they are already dug-in on, without a great deal of listening, understanding, and showing that you are willing to pay as much heed to their points, as you would like them to pay to yours. Even if you are convinced you are right, take a moment (or several) to acknowledge the other side. Really see it. If you're still prompted to disregard it and insist they are wrong, then try again.

As Stephen King put it once, your spouses's perspective joins with yours to form the *perfect binocular view* that only marriage allows. It's a superpower for married people - the ability to see, "I'm right, and you're right, and both our rightness together makes the world come into clearer focus."


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## CluelessWif (Jun 20, 2014)

While I am an HD married to an HD I am still in a better position than most HD to understand this.

1. Two times a week is the national average, at least in the US, and is a pretty big effort from an LD, who can usually go a month without sex.

2. You have contradicted yourself, first stating that sex is essential, then stating that you are just talking about intimacy. And if you are just talking about daily intimacy, then kiss her every day. There is your intimacy.

3. Having gone through LD periods, like during pregnancy, cancer, and calculus, I can tell you that duty sex is aweful. If you are not into it, then you just aren't. And with a grunting man heaving over you, you feel like the worst kind of object. A receptical for semen, nothing more, and it actually causes more problems in the marriage.

Selfish is refusing to accept your wife/husband and working within their comfort zone. Selfish is demanding access to someone else's body. Selfish is discounting everything else they do for you and only caring about what you want, right now. Selfish is you.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

CluelessWif said:


> 3. Having gone through LD periods, like during pregnancy, cancer, and calculus, I can tell you that ...


Calculus :rofl:. That's the darn truth. You know I dropped calc 1 due to my divorce and had to retake it. Maybe there's more to that than I realized.


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## scientia (Aug 27, 2012)

CluelessWif said:


> 1. Two times a week is the national average, at least in the US,


This is not quite accurate. The first standard deviation for US couples ranges from about once every two weeks to twice a week. The median is closer to once a week. So, that's the middle. Roughly 1/6th of couples have sex less often than once every two weeks and 1/6th have sex more often than twice a week. However, both of these groups cluster closer to the middle. For example, to get to couples who have sex once a day, you have to go out five standard deviations. Remember that there is a lot of space between one deviation and five. You cannot group people who like sex three times a week with those who like seven times a week. Both are above one deviation but they don't match. HD does not have a precise meaning.



> and is a pretty big effort from an LD, who can usually go a month without sex.


This isn't accurate either. Below one deviation would include people who want sex every 20 days and those who don't ever want sex. Again, this range is far too diverse to group together. There are people who are happy having sex once every four months. They won't fit with someone who wants sex 6x more often than that even though that person would still be below one deviation.



> And if you are just talking about daily intimacy, then kiss her every day. There is your intimacy.


I know that for me, I could not possibly be happy with one kiss a day from my partner.



> I can tell you that duty sex is aweful. If you are not into it, then you just aren't. And with a grunting man heaving over you, you feel like the worst kind of object. A receptical for semen, nothing more, and it actually causes more problems in the marriage.


I completely agree. You would need some alternative so that neither feels stressed or neglected.



> Selfish is refusing to accept your wife/husband and working within their comfort zone. Selfish is demanding access to someone else's body. Selfish is discounting everything else they do for you and only caring about what you want, right now. Selfish is you.


This argument isn't really accurate. You are demanding some control over someone else's body anytime you are in an exclusive sexual relationship. This is true no matter how much or how little sex you prefer. I have seen people try to claim that their responsibility is only a matter of where their desire overlaps with their partner's and that any additional desire can be covered by masturbation. However, this notion is delusional. If masturbation is your primary sexual outlet with occasional sex then you are little more than friends with benefits. Except that apparently you are fully committed in all other responsibilities. Strange notion. The truth is that sex is no different than other areas of a marriage. If you don't reach something mutually agreeable then it won't work.

I don't really understand why people seem to gravitate between two equally incorrect extremes. Sex is not duty nor is abstinence a right. This would be like having a discussion where one side argues that you should be a slave to your partner where nothing you want matters and the other side arguing that your partner should be a slave to you where nothing they want matters. I'm sorry but the opposite kind of nonsense is still nonsense.


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## MelodyAnn (Oct 20, 2012)

There's a lot of arguing back and forth here about who is "selfish" when one partner wants regular sex and the other doesn't. While the answer depends on the unique set of circumstances in every relationship, I think we also need to examine what purpose sex actually serves in an ongoing, or long-term, relationship. I have heard and read that sex in a long-term relationship is mostly about intimacy and less about the physical sensations of sex. Makes sense to me. If relationship sex was just about the physical sensations of arousal and orgasm, then we might be able to equally fill our physical need for sex through sex toys, masturbation, porn, etc. But it's not the physical element as much as the emotional element when you're with one partner day in, day out, year in, year out. The physical aspect is overshadowed by the need for emotional intimacy. It is for our emotional stability that we need to be touched, caressed, loved and to feel wanted through physical expressions of love. While abstract non-physical love is powerful in itself, love expressed through physical means is essential in a romantic relationship. Someone here said that engaged couples are romantically involved and might abstain from sex until marriage, but the sexual aspect of their relationship is merely _postponed_, but highly anticipated and expected. 
Is it selfish if your partner denies you love? I think so. If physical and emotional intimacy are intertwined in the act of sex, aptly referred to as "love-making", denying sex is like denying an important aspect of your love. On the other hand, it is selfish to _demand _sex when someone is feeling sick or physically unable. I think two people who really love each other have to set some ground rules of when it is OK to skip or postpone sex. If you cannot agree on the ground rules, both partners are at risk of thinking the other is selfish. It is just plain hurtful to both partners when this happens. The one who is desiring sex feels undesirable and unwanted from feelings of rejection, and the one who is turning the sex down may feel pressured and unloved as well. A lot of times the intimacy issues might start outside of sex. One or both partners might be harboring resentment or anger for other issues in the marriage and this might kill their libido. Often if you can resolve the conflicts that are hurting a partner's sex drive, the frequency and quality of sex will improve.


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## murphy5 (May 1, 2014)

Coldie said:


> I have a few questions for the members here:
> 
> Is sex worth more than my attention? *YES*
> Is sex worth more than me working 1 or 2 jobs to support my wife? *YES*
> ...


any more questions?
those other things are nice, but sex is like breathing...can not do without it.


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## Coldie (Jan 2, 2014)

murphy5 said:


> any more questions?
> those other things are nice, but sex is like breathing...can not do without it.


If your spouse feels the same way then you have no issues my friend.


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## Coldie (Jan 2, 2014)

Faeleaf said:


> Personally, I have a high sex drive and believe my husband and I are both lucky in this regard. Sex is a blessing to our marriage, but that's because we both love doing it, and love pleasing each other, and neither of us have triggers or hangups regarding sex that make it difficult.
> 
> Also, I feel tremendously sorry for spouses who are sexually frustrated and mismatched with a LD spouse. If I had a magic wand to wave and give you all sexually-charged spouses, I would do it in an instant. Your suffering is real; I see it, and I wish I could fix it, because that's a terrible place to be stuck.
> 
> ...


Good reply. I am not on a standing on a street corner trying to convert passers-by. I am on a marriage forum, specifically the sex in marriage forum. The dogma and logic can be used and applied by husbands or wives that are going through the same situation I went through. You are right, it takes an open mind and empathy. It also takes knowing what you want and being able to explain why you are miserable. This forum is here to help others who are possibly still trying to figure it out. Your spouse can have an open mind and empathy but if you can't put into words what makes you unhappy other than, "I just want more sex and you don't seem to like sex." Chances are, the spouse responds, "I just don't think about sex like you do. I have a low sex drive." Loop, repeat. 

It's helpful to understand what makes you miserable isn't as simple as, you want more sex. If that's the case, well, too bad, find a good lock for the bathroom. But if it's a deeper issue and you can't explain why, maybe reading a thread like this can help you. Maybe you want more intimacy. You want to feel wanted. You want to feel attractive. You want to feel loved. You want to connect with the person you vowed to spend the rest of your life with. So, yes, standing on this proverbial corner of the internet, where the passers-by are all spouses with different "sex in marriage" issues can help with "converting" some marriages. 

But what you said is absolutely correct. Information doesn't mean the person you are dealing with will reciprocate. But it does help understand and know you are not some sex driven maniac that just wants to have sex sex sex all the time. Some of us spouses have become vilified simply for wanting to spend more intimate time with our spouses, like our need is an evil unacceptable thing. I stand by what I've said in previous replies. You will never be on your deathbed and say, "I wish I wouldn't have been intimate with my significant other so much, I could have watched tv, cleaned, worked more, and read forums on the internet way more."

Wanting intimacy or a physical connection with the person we vowed to spend the rest of our lives with is not a bad thing. It's not an argument that the term "low drive" has any place for. Your drive has nothing to do with meeting my intimacy needs. That's an excuse, neglect, and abusive, imho.


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## Jayg14 (May 23, 2011)

Marriage is at its heart, a sexual relationship. Without the sex it's just a legally binding friendship, which is a needlessly complicated way of having a friend. The basic agreement of being married is to meet each other’s sexual needs and not to run round getting them met anywhere else.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

I had an interesting conversation with a marriage counselor over dinner on Sunday. He says the majority of his clients come to him because the wife insists and the clueless guy is like, HUH? He says that there are a lot of guys who really don't know how to deal with changes in gender dynamics. It takes several sessions to get past what the couple THINK the issues are. But eventually he has to say to these guys, she does not want your paycheck. She does not need your paycheck. She wants your HEART. You passion. Your love. You wit. Your humor. Women don't need to exchange sex for financial security anymore. Women are not being counseled by their pastors anymore to be a good wife and submit to her husband (thank goodness). Women want more than a contract from marriage. 

Drive has little to do with it, at least in the physical/hormonal sense. It is soul sucking to try to give all of yourself to someone who only wants a vessel to stick his thing in from time to time.


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## BradWesley (May 24, 2013)

Coldie
Member

Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 230

Default Found out my wife is bisexual after 15 years of marriage.
After 15 years of marriage my wife has opened up to me and our oldest daughter about being bisexual. Although she has told me previously she felt attracted to women, it wasn't until she told our oldiest that she was bisexual that I took her serious. The reason she told our oldest (14) was because our daughter was questioning her own sexual preferences and her mother wanted to make sure she let her know the feelings were normal. Specifically being attracted to other women.

A quick resolution to that talk for you guys, I don't think my daughter is gay or bisexual. She is young and wondering why boys don't ask her out, so I feel she thinks maybe she will only have girls like her, because that is all she socializes with. She will probably grow out of it. For her, feeling attracted to other girls scared her and she didn't want to feel that way. Anyway, too much for one thread on a marriage forum?

Since coming out we have had 3 seperate threesomes with 2 different women. Although my role is limited, with some penetration or oral from the others, I do not complete or orgasm in front of the women. It's something my wife isn't okay with. After they leave, we "reconnect." It's as if the threesome for me is foreplay, I am unsure of what it is for her. She has always been extremely jealous but wanted to be with women so much that she felt have a mutual threesome was better than spending intimate time with another person all by herself. She has urges but doesn't want to push our boundaries and just go out and have lesbian sex. I also do not want her to do this, because for me "wondering" is the worst part.

The threesomes are stimulating and neat, because its something thats always been in the back of my mind, but I always prided myself in being extremely loyal to my wife. In fact, up until the threesome I bragged I had never even looked at another women, been to a bar or strip club, and have been as loyal as I think a man can be. Now I really don't have that.

Has anyone else went through this type of thing? Should I stop the threesomes or continue on and just enjoy the experiences? For for the record, I have made it clear I am not a cuckold, I do not have any desire to ever add a man to a threesome. For me, this is an absolute boundary and I am not okay with it.


Remember this thread Coldie?

Your wife admits to be a bisexual after 15 yrs. of marriage. What do you do? Set up three threesomes, with two different women, who by the way you have sex with. Now you said you did not cum in or on them, because it would not be okay with your wife. that's very sporting of you!

Also, you mentioned that having a man join in is not happening,. This would violate a boundary of yours, and you don't want to be a cuckold. Insecure in the fact that some other guy may rock her world better than you ever could>

By doing what you did, you may have completely turned her off to sex.

But what the hell Coldie, it's all about you anyway.


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## Coldie (Jan 2, 2014)

BradWesley said:


> Coldie
> Member
> 
> Join Date: Jan 2014
> ...


And at one point she had what is considered, "low drive" on TAM. Can you imagine that? 

I bet when you posted this reply you had one of those, "I gotcha" moments huh? I am not ashamed of anything I said in that thread, as the day I replied to this one (6 months later), I almost replied to that thread as well, but didn't want to clog the forums up with threads I started. I am not ashamed of my life or the topics I have brought to this forum. I also have a topic related to being a physically ugly person. 

Are you that upset at my advice that you want to find reasons to discredit them? And if your biggest reason is the fact that after 16 years of marriage we have decided to have threesomes, think about that. Considering for the 10 years in the middle I dealt with what I considered a sexless marriage (sex without feeling wanted).


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## BradWesley (May 24, 2013)

Coldie said:


> And at one point she had what is considered, "low drive" on TAM. Can you imagine that?
> 
> I bet when you posted this reply you had one of those, "I gotcha" moments huh? I am not ashamed of anything I said in that thread, as the day I replied to this one (6 months later), I almost replied to that thread as well, but didn't want to clog the forums up with threads I started. I am not ashamed of my life or the topics I have brought to this forum. I also have a topic related to being a physically ugly person.
> 
> Are you that upset at my advice that you want to find reasons to discredit them? And if your biggest reason is the fact that after 16 years of marriage we have decided to have threesomes, think about that. Considering for the 10 years in the middle I dealt with what I considered a sexless marriage (sex without feeling wanted).


Never considered it a "gotcha" moment.

Dude, you've discredited yourself!

Have a nice day.


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## Coldie (Jan 2, 2014)

BradWesley said:


> Never considered it a "gotcha" moment.
> 
> Dude, you've discredited yourself!
> 
> Have a nice day.


Okay, I will. Since you did the detective work, how about look at the dates both threads were active and being replied to. Once you realize they were active at the exact same time (literally one was the first non-sticky thread on this forum, the other was the second), you'll see how foolish it was to ask, "Remember this thread coldie?"

Look at the start date of this thread BradWesley. 

Have a good day.


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## Jayg14 (May 23, 2011)

hookares said:


> When the sex spigot gets shut off and locked for YOU, then it has likely as not to have been opened for one or more other individuals.


Not in this day and age. I know of half a dozen people, myself include where the opposite of this is true.


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## Jetranger (May 31, 2013)

CluelessWif said:


> 3. Having gone through LD periods, like during pregnancy, cancer, and calculus, I can tell you that duty sex is aweful. If you are not into it, then you just aren't. And with a grunting man heaving over you, you feel like the worst kind of object. A receptical for semen, nothing more, and it actually causes more problems in the marriage.


Oh god. When I was about 12 I watched Sleeping With The Enemy. There's a scene early on where Julia Roberts' husband buys her a sexy red bikini, and then makes her wear it while they have sex.

The shot from overhead as he grunts like a hog while she stares off into space, desperate to be anywhere else, then putting on a fake smile when he finishes and starts to get up, has stuck with me. I never, ever want to be that man.


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## Coldie (Jan 2, 2014)

CluelessWif said:


> While I am an HD married to an HD I am still in a better position than most HD to understand this.
> 
> 1. Two times a week is the national average, at least in the US, and is a pretty big effort from an LD, who can usually go a month without sex.
> 
> ...


1. So they take great marriages where couples have sex multiple times a day and average them out with poor marriages once a month, and that comes out to 2 times a week. This is something worth noting? Couples should not strive to make their marriage average or shoot for the middle ground between bad and good relationships. 

2. I probably did contradict myself, it won't be the first time. I am positive I will contradict myself again. I do kiss everyday, in fact, I feel like kissing your wife each time you leave the house or see each other after work that day is essential. And sex isn't the only form of intimacy, which is what I went into detail about later. You can pluck any one line out of any post and make say and I contradicted myself, especially without reading the explanation or taking it out of context. If a person needs intimacy, and the intimacy he needs is sex, then sex is essential. Absolutely correct. If one of the spouses doesn't need intimacy at all, there is your problem. If one of the spouses prefers to kiss rather than have sex. Then guess what? You make sure your spouse gets the intimacy they need, and they should make sure you get the intimacy you need. I have no problem with kissing being the form of intimacy both agree on as a total replacement for sex. I do have a problem with one person saying, "Kissing is just as good and you need to accept that." 

3. I've already said, the issue is different when there is a sickness. However, the term "duty sex" is nothing more than a guilt word made to vilify the spouse who wants intimacy as a bad person. Call it what it is, "duty intimacy." If intimacy is a duty, you aren't doing marriage right and should possibly look into a duty divorce. 

Selfish is demanding access to my attention. Selfish is demanding my loyalty. Selfish is demanding access to my heart. Selfish is asking me to love you, and not just love you, love only you. Selfish is demanding that I pay for this large house that takes care of the entire family. Selfish is coming out of my comfort zone and waking up each day to bust my butt and do things I would never do otherwise, if it wasn't to take care of my wife. My comfort zone is sitting around playing video games with my boxers on eating Cheetos. I left my comfort zone the day I agreed to dedicate my life to another person. Selfish is the day I gave up being single and took on the responsibility of a husband, and not just a husband, a good husband. I will try my hardest to meet all my wives emotional needs.

By the way, NONE OF THAT IS SELFISH. That's marriage. And sex/intimacy is just as much a part of it as all of the above.

However, ignoring my needs, IS selfish, is neglect, and is abusive. 

Why do people insist on trying to make sex (or your lack of) or a "body" more valuable than a mind, attention, time, body, intimacy, energy, life, marriage.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

jbird669 said:


> Marriage is at its heart, a sexual relationship. Without the sex it's just a legally binding friendship, which is a needlessly complicated way of having a friend. The basic agreement of being married is to meet each other’s sexual needs and not to run round getting them met anywhere else.


It seems to me that marriage is also supposed to be a loving, intimate relationship. Intimacy does not happen unless BOTH people feel it.


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## Coldie (Jan 2, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> It seems to me that marriage is also supposed to be a loving, intimate relationship. Intimacy does not happen unless BOTH people feel it.


Absolutely correct.

If intimacy is not happening, it's time to rethink that marriage.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Coldie said:


> Absolutely correct.
> 
> If intimacy is not happening, it's time to rethink that marriage.


One would have to wonder why EACH of the members of the partnership is not feeling it. I find, in my experience, that I have to put more effort to understand what HE wants. He feels likewise. I think most people spend all their energy trying to figure out how to GET what they want. Kind of a trust and intimacy buster, if you ask me.


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## scientia (Aug 27, 2012)

Exiting this thread.


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## Coldie (Jan 2, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> One would have to wonder why EACH of the members of the partnership is not feeling it. I find, in my experience, that I have to put more effort to understand what HE wants. He feels likewise. I think most people spend all their energy trying to figure out how to GET what they want. Kind of a trust and intimacy buster, if you ask me.


A relationship has so much tug-a-war going on. It's the couples that give in into their spouse, on both sides, that make great life long partners. 

It's the couples where the spouses look at themselves as bigger than the marriage, that end up very unhappy and alone, until their next marriage when they finally learn to give in to their spouse.

Ego. Pride. Sticking to the mindset you had prior to marriage. Feeling what you need is more valuable that what they need. And at times, unfortunately, feeling what you DON'T NEED is more valuable than what they need. Kills marriages.


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## Coldie (Jan 2, 2014)

scientia said:


> This is not quite accurate. The first standard deviation for US couples ranges from about once every two weeks to twice a week. The median is closer to once a week. So, that's the middle. Roughly 1/6th of couples have sex less often than once every two weeks and 1/6th have sex more often than twice a week. However, both of these groups cluster closer to the middle. For example, to get to couples who have sex once a day, you have to go out five standard deviations. Remember that there is a lot of space between one deviation and five. You cannot group people who like sex three times a week with those who like seven times a week. Both are above one deviation but they don't match. HD does not have a precise meaning.
> 
> 
> This isn't accurate either. Below one deviation would include people who want sex every 20 days and those who don't ever want sex. Again, this range is far too diverse to group together. There are people who are happy having sex once every four months. They won't fit with someone who wants sex 6x more often than that even though that person would still be below one deviation.
> ...


I enjoyed this reply.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Coldie said:


> _A relationship has so much tug-a-*war *_going on. It's the couples that give in into their spouse, on both sides, that make great life long partners.


Goodness, that is really sad. If you look at it as giving IN rather than just being giving then that is problematic. 



> It's the couples where the spouses look at themselves as bigger than the marriage, that end up very unhappy and alone, until their next marriage when they finally learn to give in to their spouse.
> 
> Ego. Pride. Sticking to the mindset you had prior to marriage. Feeling what you need is more valuable that what they need. And at times, unfortunately, feeling what you DON'T NEED is more valuable than what they need. Kills marriages.


Are you that kind of person?


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## Coldie (Jan 2, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> Goodness, that is really sad. If you look at it as giving IN rather than just being giving then that is problematic.
> 
> 
> 
> Are you that kind of person?


Maybe 'give in' was the wrong word usage? Give in to me means, I am all in. If my wife needs something, I put my own issues aside and try to meet her needs. Attention, time, body, whatever it may be. In that same token, she will do the same. She doesn't look at me and try to explain that it's duty sex or that it's her body and she feels so awful giving up her body just so I can physically ejaculate inside her. Wtf? Who really looks at intimacy that way? She doesn't accept everything I do for her as a part of her marriage, and then exclude herself, or intimacy, as bigger than marriage. We are both all in.


No, I am not that person. I meet all my wives needs, if possible, and have done things that otherwise I would never have done, if she didn't have a need.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Coldie said:


> Maybe 'give in' was the wrong word usage? Give in to me means, I am all in. If my wife needs something, I put my own issues aside and try to meet her needs. Attention, time, body, whatever it may be. In that same token, she will do the same. She doesn't look at me and try to explain that it's duty sex or that it's her body and she feels so awful giving up her body just so I can physically ejaculate inside her. Wtf? Who really looks at intimacy that way? She doesn't accept everything I do for her as a part of her marriage, and then exclude herself, or intimacy, as bigger than marriage. We are both all in.


Do you read this board? Lots of people view sex that way. Show up on wedding day. Go to work. Make money. Get sex.

Then look around baffled when their wife isn't giving it up.


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## Coldie (Jan 2, 2014)

Yes, that's why I made this thread (even though I made it 6 months ago).


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## Faeleaf (Jul 22, 2014)

Coldie said:


> A relationship has so much tug-a-war going on. It's the couples that give in into their spouse, on both sides, that make great life long partners.


Have to say I disagree with this one, at least on the face of it. I don't think the tug-of-war is mandatory, or even healthy. Nor that being a good spouse is about "giving in" to your spouse's desires, or neglecting your own desires in an effort please your spouse.

Marriage is an all-or-nothing game. The outcome is either win-win, or lose-lose. There is no other option - no option to make myself lose, and him win. No option to help myself win at his expense. It's not a tug of war. We're on *the same team*.

And like teammates in sports, we win or lose together. Anything that benefits him also benefits me, and likewise anything that makes me suffer will make him suffer as well. Everything that happens in a marriage - everything - impacts it for good or ill. You cannot ignore how the choices you make impact your spouse. Everything comes back to hurt you, or help you, eventually.

You need an aerial view in marriage. I want to visit my family for Christmas, and you want to visit yours. Do we each argue our sides and try to persist over the other? Do we play a game of chicken over who will "give in" first?

Hopefully not - if I win the argument, and you lose, then I lose as well. You'll be resentful, or think your desires don't matter to me. And when my spouse thinks that, I'm losing too. 

If you win the argument, I "lose", and in the end you'll lose as well. Because you'll be married to a wife who feels dominated and unimportant, and how can that be healthy for a relationship?

Or do we listen, really listen to our spouse's feelings and desires, and let those feelings and desires become as important as our own? So that both of us pursue the real solution - the one that meets both our needs, and refuse to settle for anything else?

"I haven't seen my twin sister in three years, and she's going to Mom and Dad's this year for Christmas, with her new baby, and it would mean the world to be able to see them. But I hear you, that your grandfather is terminal, and this might be your last chance to visit him. Of course you want to go - I don't blame you, and I want that for you as well. That's so important. Let's figure out how we can both get what we need here."

"Hey, can we make a trip to one place on Thanksgiving instead? Or find the money to send you to your sister's for a week in February? She might enjoy having a little extra help for the baby, and time to catch up with you that isn't crowded with holiday stuff." 

This is just an example but it illustrates what I'm talking about - recognizing that a vital part of what I want IS everything that is important to you, and the same thing is true in reverse. Less a tug of war, and more a widening of perspectives that includes both of our wants and desires.


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## Coldie (Jan 2, 2014)

Faeleaf said:


> Have to say I disagree with this one, at least on the face of it. I don't think the tug-of-war is mandatory, or even healthy. Nor that being a good spouse is about "giving in" to your spouse's desires, or neglecting your own desires in an effort please your spouse.
> 
> Marriage is an all-or-nothing game. The outcome is either win-win, or lose-lose. There is no other option - no option to make myself lose, and him win. No option to help myself win at his expense. It's not a tug of war. We're on *the same team*.
> 
> ...


I agree with this response. However, if you are saying there is never a power struggle or two people going back and forth after the dating/honeymoon stages, then I disagree. Of course in a perfect situation, all of those power struggles are worked out prior to marriage. However, that is few and far between. That's also why half of marriages end in divorce, and why most of us came here to begin with.

I am referring to a marriage, fresh on it's feet, learning what it's like to live with a person forever. I guess it would depend on if you lived together prior, or were married out of high school and moved in for the first time with your spouse. There is a power struggle and a tug-o-war. Once both spouses learn to be on the same team (much better worded than give in), they can have a very long and fulfilling marriage. In a tug-o-war, one side gives in. In a good relationship, both meet in the middle (both give-in). That was my point. The team concept is better, but either idea works for me. Seems like semantics, because I agree with everything you said. 

It's the ones that stay on separate teams that are in trouble. It's the spouse that makes themselves bigger than their marriage. It's the ones that keep playing tug-o-war on opposite teams. They come before their spouses needs. They've never learned to be "team" players. That marriage is a battlefield, and a lot of times sex becomes their ammo used to hurt each other.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

NobodySpecial said:


> Do you read this board? Lots of people view sex that way. Show up on wedding day. Go to work. Make money. Get sex.


Anybody that describes the dynamic like this obviously doesn't get how the majority of men really feel about sex in marriage.


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## Faeleaf (Jul 22, 2014)

Coldie said:


> I agree with this response. However, if you are saying there is never a power struggle or two people going back and forth after the dating/honeymoon stages, then I disagree. Of course in a perfect situation, all of those power struggles are worked out prior to marriage. However, that is few and far between. That's also why half of marriages end in divorce, and why most of us came here to begin with.
> 
> I am referring to a marriage, fresh on it's feet, learning what it's like to live with a person forever. I guess it would depend on if you lived together prior, or were married out of high school and moved in for the first time with your spouse. There is a power struggle and a tug-o-war. Once both spouses learn to be on the same team (much better worded than give in), they can have a very long and fulfilling marriage. In a tug-o-war, one side gives in. In a good relationship, both meet in the middle (both give-in). That was my point. The team concept is better, but either idea works for me. Seems like semantics, because I agree with everything you said.
> 
> It's the ones that stay on separate teams that are in trouble. It's the spouse that makes themselves bigger than their marriage. It's the ones that keep playing tug-o-war on opposite teams. They come before their spouses needs. They've never learned to be "team" players. That marriage is a battlefield, and a lot of times sex becomes their ammo used to hurt each other.


I agree with you. I was lucky to be a twin, and think I had this team thing almost entirely worked out prior to my marriage. It's a framework that comes naturally to me.

My husband, on the other hand, was known to be very stubborn, with a not-insignificant independent streak. He had to learn how to be a team - mostly through example, and it's second nature to him now. I am very proud of him.

I guess I am uncomfortable with the terms "tug of war" and "power struggle," since they imply that it's possible to win at your partner's expense. Get the "upper hand," etc. I don't think that's possible...at all. It'a a lie, that comes crashing down eventually. How many times have we seen posts here by unhappy spouses, claiming "My husband (or wife, what will you) gets everything his way. He has to win every argument. He doesn't care about what I want at all." The fact is, the husband in this case may THINK they are getting their way, getting everything they want, but they are flat-out wrong. They are not getting what they want at all...because they do not want an unhappy spouse, at her wits end, tempted to cheat or leave the marriage, etc. That is most definitely NOT what the husband wants! But it's what he's gotten...it's what we always get, when we pursue "winning" at the expense of our spouses. We don't win. It's not possible.


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## Coldie (Jan 2, 2014)

Faeleaf said:


> I agree with you. I was lucky to be a twin, and think I had this team thing almost entirely worked out prior to my marriage. It's a framework that comes naturally to me.
> 
> My husband, on the other hand, was known to be very stubborn, with a not-insignificant independent streak. He had to learn how to be a team - mostly through example, and it's second nature to him now. I am very proud of him.
> 
> I guess I am uncomfortable with the terms "tug of war" and "power struggle," since they imply that it's possible to win at your partner's expense. Get the "upper hand," etc. I don't think that's possible...at all. It'a a lie, that comes crashing down eventually. How many times have we seen posts here by unhappy spouses, claiming "My husband (or wife, what will you) gets everything his way. He has to win every argument. He doesn't care about what I want at all." The fact is, the husband in this case may THINK they are getting their way, getting everything they want, but they are flat-out wrong. They are not getting what they want at all...because they do not want an unhappy spouse, at her wits end, tempted to cheat or leave the marriage, etc. That is most definitely NOT what the husband wants! But it's what he's gotten...it's what we always get, when we pursue "winning" at the expense of our spouses. We don't win. It's not possible.


1. I wish I was a twin.

2. I try not to get too caught up in the terms being used because it seems like we have the same idea on what a good relationship is. 

I snagged this up from google because I needed google to really understand what it means when I said, "semantics". Maybe you don't need it, but it helped me.

A semantic dispute is a disagreement that arises if the parties involved disagree about whether a particular claim is true, not because they disagree on material facts, but rather because they disagree on the definitions of a word (or several words) essential to formulating the claim at issue. It is sometimes held that semantic disputes are not genuine disputes at all. 

Me and you are undisputed leaf backwards and forward (twin thing?) Unless you just disagree with the threads original premise. Then we have some things to really argue about.


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## Faeleaf (Jul 22, 2014)

You may be right, and we are having only a semantic disagreement. Sometimes it's hard to know, until you discuss the hell out of the thing. 

As to the original premise...well, I agree with a lot of it. Having experienced sexual frustration once or twice in my life, and how much that sucked, I am very sympathetic to frustrated spouses. I truly am. 

I don't think that's the end of the story though. It's a very important half, but you need the other half to find a solution. The spouses's perspective - what his/her needs and fears are, what is he/she struggling with and what makes him/her tick?

Unless you can bring both things into focus, validate both viewpoints, figure out to make both of you "win", then you both continue to lose, ultimately. While you might feel vindicated and soothed to read this thread, with other people suffering as you are, it doesn't seem particularly helpful, as it's kind of bolstering up only one side of the picture, and further entrenching bickering spouses on their separate sides of the battlefield. 

Maybe I'm wrong about this and we're having another semantic misunderstanding...it's certainly possible! 

Oh and,



> 1. I wish I was a twin.


Everyone does..at least, that's what they all tell me. But I've always believed people who wish this, are wishing for "another me," a duplicate of yourself to back you up, keep you company, etc. Like having two voices instead of one.

Being a twin is much more like being married - you are two different people, with different needs and goals, stuck with each other all the time and more often than not, getting in each other's way. 

Yes, you are used to living with another person, and *can* get a headstart on some relationship skills so crucial to a marriage. It's not a sure thing though...I will say that my twin sister's marriage is deeply, fundamentally unhappy. Feeling frustrated about her unhappiness, and impotent in my desire to help her, is actually one of the reasons I come here.


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## Coldie (Jan 2, 2014)

Very interesting. Hopefully you find some sort of advice her for her, or maybe just link her to the website. I find some users of this forum extremely helpful.


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## Jayg14 (May 23, 2011)

NobodySpecial said:


> It seems to me that marriage is also supposed to be a loving, intimate relationship. Intimacy does not happen unless BOTH people feel it.


And if you have all of that WITHOUT sex then you have a close friendship, not a marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

jbird669 said:


> And if you have all of that WITHOUT sex then you have a close friendship, not a marriage.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


True, and if all I had wanted was a best friend, I could have just moved in with my best friend or brother and skipped the search for a relationship that led to marriage.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> It seems to me that marriage is also supposed to be a loving, intimate relationship. Intimacy does not happen unless BOTH people feel it.





jbird669 said:


> And if you have all of that WITHOUT sex then you have a close friendship, not a marriage.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


- A=Friend.
- B=Fuhc Buddy.
- A+B=Healthy marriage.


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## Jayg14 (May 23, 2011)

Thundarr said:


> - A=Friend.
> - B=Fuhc Buddy.
> - A+B=Healthy marriage.


Many guys get A, not enough get B.


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

SadSamIAm said:


> Anybody that describes the dynamic like this obviously doesn't get how the majority of men really feel about sex in marriage.


When men complain about not getting any, they usually state that they are a good husband because they make a good income, help with the kids, and help around the house. None of those things increase attraction, but these are the things men state in order to justify getting sex.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

techmom said:


> When men complain about not getting any, they usually state that they are a good husband because they make a good income, help with the kids, and help around the house. *None of those things increase attraction*, but these are the things men state in order to justify getting sex.


Yet those are the things women tell men DO increase attraction...how many articles, seemingly validated by women have there been telling men that if they help out more, change a diaper, do the dishes, laundry, vacuum, they will get laid more? How often is that advice given here at TAM?

I have never bought into that because in my experience, it is simply not true.


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## Faeleaf (Jul 22, 2014)

samyeagar said:


> Yet those are the things women tell men DO increase attraction...how many articles, seemingly validated by women have there been telling men that if they help out more, change a diaper, do the dishes, laundry, vacuum, they will get laid more? How often is that advice given here at TAM?
> 
> I have never bought into that because in my experience, it is simply not true.


We must need a refresher course on "His Needs, Her Needs." 

This works on some women. It does not work on me. Those are not my needs. I need a lot of time spent together, physical affection, and conversation. Without those, despite my high drive, I will not enjoy sex with any partner. I simply won't feel "connected" enough to do so.


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## Coldie (Jan 2, 2014)

Faeleaf said:


> We must need a refresher course on "His Needs, Her Needs."
> 
> This works on some women. It does not work on me. Those are not my needs. I need a lot of time spent together, physical affection, and conversation. Without those, despite my high drive, I will not enjoy sex with any partner. I simply won't feel "connected" enough to do so.


Interesting.

I wonder if it's an introvert / extrovert thing. I am very much an introvert. In fact, I tend to find a lot of people that post on forums like these, are very much introverts. It's what we do.

Introverts like to discuss, spent time together, and critically think everyday events. Extrovert tend to live in the moment, don't really critical think about every action they make, and would possibly be turned on by a guy making good money, helping out around the house, and making her life easier. While an introvert would need conversation, attention, and doing things around the house will mean very little to her, especially if he doesn't spend time with her.

Now, the introvert/extrovert description was vague at best. There is a lot more to it.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Coldie said:


> Interesting.
> 
> I wonder if it's an introvert / extrovert thing. I am very much an introvert. In fact, I tend to find a lot of people that post on forums like these, are very much introverts. It's what we do.
> 
> ...


Or she just says that it turns her on because the guy is a doormat who will fall for it


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## Faeleaf (Jul 22, 2014)

You could be on to something.

I read a theory on introvert/extrovert that related it to cortical arousal. Low cortical arousal resulted in extroverts, and high cortical arousal resulted in introverts. That makes sense; if you have high cortical arousal then you prefer "low-risk" situations (like being social "online" instead of at bars, for example). Whereas if you have low cortical arousal, then you crave excitement and tend to be much more social. 

Long periods of touch and talking are "bonding" on a deep, biological level. Introverts, who prefer low risk situations, will warm sexually under those conditions. We need that sense of safety and comfort in order to open up enough for sex, because sex is perceived as a risky endeavor.

On the other hand, extroverts, who need more stimulating situations, might not need, or even want, all the "edges" worn down in their relationships, and would naturally be more attracted to a "do-er," someone animated and driven to help her around the house, as opposed to the guy sitting calmly in the corner, reading a book. 

What an interesting discussion.


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## Horsa (Jun 27, 2012)

I see sex as a way of loving act and being loved by my wife. Sex carries appreciation, caring, respect, attraction and love along. So it was very important to me in my relationship.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## over20 (Nov 15, 2013)

techmom said:


> When men complain about not getting any, they usually state that they are a good husband because they make a good income, help with the kids, and help around the house. None of those things increase attraction, but these are the things men state in order to justify getting sex.


And WHY isn't that a good enough reason for a husband to get sex? Let alone that a male derives happiness and confidence from his sexual relationship with his wife..... Does he have to jump through hoops also?

If a man makes a great living, is a good father, and helps out around the house, on top of keeping his vows to his beloved wife.....what woman in their right mind would DENY him sex? Isn't this type of man, the PERFECT MAN? :scratchhead:


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## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

over20 said:


> And WHY isn't that a good enough reason for a husband to get sex? Let alone that a male derives happiness and confidence from his sexual relationship with his wife..... Does he have to jump through hoops also?
> 
> If a man makes a great living, is a good father, and helps out around the house, on top of keeping his vows to his beloved wife.....what woman in their right mind would DENY him sex? Isn't this type of man, the PERFECT MAN? :scratchhead:


True. What else can a guy do? That's why I often refer to relationships as a "game." Some people hate that term, but what else would one call it. 

For 18 years, I cooked, cleaned, changed diapers, gave bottles, brought in a nice salary, and a ton of other thing, but it still wasn't enough. I didn't just do those things to get a pat on the back either. I got up in the night to feed babies because my x wife's job was more physically demanding than mine. I did everything I did to help out, but it still wasn't enough.


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## Jetranger (May 31, 2013)

Faeleaf said:


> You could be on to something.
> 
> I read a theory on introvert/extrovert that related it to cortical arousal. Low cortical arousal resulted in extroverts, and high cortical arousal resulted in introverts. That makes sense; if you have high cortical arousal then you prefer "low-risk" situations (like being social "online" instead of at bars, for example). Whereas if you have low cortical arousal, then you crave excitement and tend to be much more social.
> 
> ...


I'm not so sure personality type is necessarily tied to sex drive. My best friend and I are both introverts and love our alone time, but we also have high sex drives and no qualms about NSA sex (and in fact get depressed without sex). I'm male, she's female, so it's not a gender thing.

Over in the Ladies' Lounge they're talking about wanting the 'lady in the street/freak in the bed' which seems to support this, the shy or demure (or at least not raving mad) woman who will do it all and then some in the bedroom. However, they've also agreed that this is a rare creature and hard to spot.

It might be down to what you find attractive. You might be stimulated by your SO's habits whether that's aerobics or reading a book. I wonder how much of that sort of desire you mention is hardwired? There always seem to be exceptions, but maybe they seem bigger than they are becaue their unusual nature makes them stand out?


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## Faeleaf (Jul 22, 2014)

over20 said:


> If a man makes a great living, is a good father, and helps out around the house, on top of keeping his vows to his beloved wife.... Isn't this type of man, the PERFECT MAN? :scratchhead:


Perfect for me? No. Everyone is looking for different things in their partner, and while I agree these are wonderful traits, they would not make me fall in love in the first place, or maintain romantic love afterward.

Looking back on my life, I never fell in love with the "best athlete" boys/men, or the "smartest," or "best looking," "most successful," etc. 

I fell in love with the high school senior whose job it was to clean the pool room in the afternoons, and would sneak me in the back door so we could hang out and talk for 3-4 hours every day.

I fell in love with the college junior who wanted to take long walks with me every day around campus, just talking and holding hands until the sun went down.

I fell in love with a friend I ran a website with, after we started emailing, IM'ing, and finally calling each other for hours a day, sharing every intimate detail of our lives with each other. 

Obviously looking at that history, "conversation" is my number one romantic need. I need it to feel close and bonded to my partner. Marriage doesn't make that need go away. If my spouse worked all day, came home and did a few chores, played with the kids and put them to bed and then hopped into bed with me, if we never had those great, intimate conversations, he would feel like a stranger to me. 

Non-sexual physical affection is up there on my list too - my husband and I have a routine now, when I get home from work, the first thing that happens when my shoes are off is we go upstairs and lay down in bed together, just talking and cuddling, for about 10-15 minutes. And even when we are rushed, or stressed, those 10-15 minutes can make all the difference for me. I feel valued, protected, connected. I feel totally in love. This is time he could be washing the dishes. This is time he could be picking up the leaves on the backyard lawn. This is time he could be helping the kids with their homework. Another woman might prefer any or all of those things, but he's doing what works for ME.


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## firebelly1 (Jul 9, 2013)

Jetranger said:


> I'm not so sure personality type is necessarily tied to sex drive. My best friend and I are both introverts and love our alone time, but we also have high sex drives and no qualms about NSA sex (and in fact get depressed without sex). I'm male, she's female, so it's not a gender thing.
> 
> Over in the Ladies' Lounge they're talking about wanting the 'lady in the street/freak in the bed' which seems to support this, the shy or demure (or at least not raving mad) woman who will do it all and then some in the bedroom. However, they've also agreed that this is a rare creature and hard to spot.
> 
> It might be down to what you find attractive. You might be stimulated by your SO's habits whether that's aerobics or reading a book. I wonder how much of that sort of desire you mention is hardwired? There always seem to be exceptions, but maybe they seem bigger than they are becaue their unusual nature makes them stand out?


Yeah - I'm an introvert but I find hooking up with someone I don't know that well kind of exciting. It's also stressful but less stressful to me, honestly, than a traditional "date" because there are all these social expectations where just sex can be pretty straight forward.


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## Coldie (Jan 2, 2014)

Introverts are more likely to have an obsessive compulsive disorder. It's what introverts do, they think to themselves. I'd think most "regulars" on this forum are introverts or have strong introvert traits. Posting on forums deals with a lot of thought, self reflection, and talking about everyday stuff, non stop.

I obsess on intimacy, loyalty, and wanting to feel special. All recipes for a very strong need that is hard for a spouse to deal with. It also helps explain the huge disconnect in sex. An extrovert male, really isn't in touch with his emotions and probably would laugh at a guy claiming sex isn't about having an orgasm or important because it's so intimate. Sex is just getting a girl to spread her legs so he can dive in. Women could be the same. Some women just don't get why it's so important and feel "used" or feel their spouses just want to masturbate with their bodies. Some may be right, depending on the man. 

Like I said, I do not think the disconnect is high drive or low drive. a low drive has nothing to do with needing intimacy or understanding your partners need for intimacy. It's just an excuse or reason.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

techmom said:


> When men complain about not getting any, they usually state that they are a good husband because they make a good income, help with the kids, and help around the house. None of those things increase attraction, but these are the things men state in order to justify getting sex.


Heaven forbid a man strives to be a good man, takes care of his family, and wants a connection with his wife, emotionally and physically.

Take off the glasses. Its obvious you don't have a clue about why men strive to be good husbands.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

over20 said:


> And WHY isn't that a good enough reason for a husband to get sex? Let alone that a male derives happiness and confidence from his sexual relationship with his wife..... Does he have to jump through hoops also?
> 
> If a man makes a great living, is a good father, and helps out around the house, on top of keeping his vows to his beloved wife.....what woman in their right mind would DENY him sex? Isn't this type of man, the PERFECT MAN? :scratchhead:


I agree and disagree.

Its not even about being "denied" sex. Sex shouldn't be a reward because someone is leading a good life. It should be mutual.

Sex is not a tool to impose control upon a husband that, god forbid, would want to desire his wife. And a man that does all the things good men do for their family/marriage, isn't doing so because of sex. That is just an utterly ridiculous assumption.


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## over20 (Nov 15, 2013)

I guess, I was thinking of it from this angle. When a man's sexual needs are being taken care of by his beloved he is more apt to go the extra mile and "be all he can be" for her...and vice versa when a wife's needs are being met, she wants to "be all she can be" for him. I think a dangerous situation may be when both spouses needs are not met and neither wants to be the first to "change" to better their relationship......sometimes its' stubbornness, ignorance or good fashioned selfishness.....JMHO


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

over20 said:


> I guess, I was thinking of it from this angle. When a man's sexual needs are being taken care of by his beloved he is more apt to go the extra mile and "be all he can be" for her...and vice versa when a wife's needs are being met, she wants to "be all she can be" for him. I think a dangerous situation may be when both spouses needs are not met and neither wants to be the first to "change" to better their relationship......sometimes its' stubbornness, ignorance or good fashioned selfishness.....JMHO


I agree. And sometimes even when a man's sexual needs are not being met, as is the case with women too, they still take care of their family and go the extra mile.

However that did me a whole lot of good


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## over20 (Nov 15, 2013)

vellocet said:


> I agree. And sometimes even when a man's sexual needs are not being met, as is the case with women too, they still take care of their family and go the extra mile.
> 
> However that did me a whole lot of good


True.....a person like that, male or female, obviously has good character and integrity to persevere in a difficult situation like that.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

over20 said:


> And WHY isn't that a good enough reason for a husband to get sex? Let alone that a male derives happiness and confidence from his sexual relationship with his wife..... Does he have to jump through hoops also?
> 
> If a man makes a great living, is a good father, and helps out around the house, on top of keeping his vows to his beloved wife.....what woman in their right mind would DENY him sex? Isn't this type of man, the PERFECT MAN? :scratchhead:


Those three things: having a job, taking care of the kids, and taking care of the house, in my opinion, are a minimum baseline of what couples should be doing just to keep living. It's not a choice or a gift. It's not a bargaining chip to get sex. Those things should be a given. In fact, they are a given, as people have to do those things for survival's sake whether they are married to each other or not.

If he doesn't do those things - the bare minimum of taking care of his own kids, his own house, his own job - then yes, his wife can look at him and feel no sexual desire for him because he's an ass. That's why guys are first asked to step up their game if they aren't having sex because a wife who is disgusted with and resentful of her H's lack of support in the home and outside the home is not going to want to screw his brains out. 

Conversely, a guy can work, take care of the kids, and can take care of the house but if he doesn't spend time talking with his wife, or goes out every weekend for boys night out, or has anger issues and takes it out on her, or any number of other relationship issues, sex might be off the table because she doesn't feel the love, so to speak.

Just like a wife can work, take care of the kids, and take care of the house, but if she's spending a majority of the rest of her time on Facebook and girls nights out at the expense of quality time with her H, she's also an ass and he shouldn't be so hot to have sex with her.

Sex is an intimate experience couples have with each other because they want to, because it brings them closer, because it's fun, and because of so many reasons all having to do with _the health of their relationship. _But you have to take care of the baseline first.


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## Coldie (Jan 2, 2014)

norajane said:


> Those three things: having a job, taking care of the kids, and taking care of the house, in my opinion, are a minimum baseline of what couples should be doing just to keep living. It's not a choice or a gift. It's not a bargaining chip to get sex. Those things should be a given. In fact, they are a given, as people have to do those things for survival's sake whether they are married to each other or not.
> 
> If he doesn't do those things - the bare minimum of taking care of his own kids, his own house, his own job - then yes, his wife can look at him and feel no sexual desire for him because he's an ass. That's why guys are first asked to step up their game if they aren't having sex because a wife who is disgusted with and resentful of her H's lack of support in the home and outside the home is not going to want to screw his brains out.
> 
> ...


I agree with this, although my thread title says otherwise.


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

norajane said:


> But you have to take care of the baseline first.


In fairness, if you have a HD spouse, taking care of the sexual relationship is likely to be as baseline as taking care of the house and the other things you mentioned.

I don't think people have a right to sex or that it is more or less important than other necessities, but it is reasonable to expect your spouse to be making as much of an effort to upkeep the sexual portion of the relationship as they expect you to upkeep the domestic and child care portion. (Or, if not, it's fair to mentally re-define the relationship as one-sided and act accordingly.)


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

norajane said:


> Those three things: having a job, taking care of the kids, and taking care of the house, in my opinion, are a minimum baseline of what couples should be doing just to keep living. It's not a choice or a gift. It's not a bargaining chip to get sex. Those things should be a given. In fact, they are a given, as people have to do those things for survival's sake whether they are married to each other or not.
> 
> If he doesn't do those things - the bare minimum of taking care of his own kids, his own house, his own job - then yes, his wife can look at him and feel no sexual desire for him because he's an ass. That's why guys are first asked to step up their game if they aren't having sex because a wife who is disgusted with and resentful of her H's lack of support in the home and outside the home is not going to want to screw his brains out.
> 
> ...


I think you make a good point, NoraJane. The first thing I was tempted to say is that everything above is subsumed by this:



> ...and helps out around the house, on top of keeping his vows to his beloved wife.


But two people may not be on the same page here at all.


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

Coldie said:


> The term low drive is applied to sex drive.
> 
> Let's call it what it is, Low Intimacy. LI? Because then it will be easier to fix.


LD= Low Desire?


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

I don't know how I missed this thread... 

I am on page 3... I am trying to catch up...

With or without sex, I am hug deprived, kiss deprived, touch deprived, love deprived.....Sex doesn't fix those issues... My wife doesn't desire any of that.

To me LD means Low Desire....Low Desire for every area of her life.

I'll continue reading to catch up.


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## hartvalve (Mar 15, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> And my brother had ALS, yet he and his GF remained very much in love till the end. Intimacy includes sex, but it is so much more than JUST sex.
> 
> I have a lot of sex with my husband, but intimacy...we're working on it.


^This is good. Real real good.^ Now let me continue the read.


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

How can a spouse say it feels fake or forced to give her husband a hug?


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## BradWesley (May 24, 2013)

Trickster said:


> I don't know how I missed this thread...
> 
> I am on page 3... I am trying to catch up...
> 
> ...


I'm not trying to be a wise ass, but why do you stay with her?


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## hartvalve (Mar 15, 2014)

Marriage is so multi-faceted and everyone of those facets has to be given adequate attention to at least (have a baseline as someone said) good marriage. There are and never will be the perfect marriage, (I have certainly not been the perfect wife) we know that, but is worth the aim to have a good one. Whatever is lacking in a marriage will become the BIGGIE challenge. Whether the lack is sex/sexual intimacy/intimacy, finances, maturity, helping-in-and-around the home, cleanliness, ect.. 

Love and maintaining a good friendship relationship within a marriage, I believe is the catalyst that gives a couple an edge over those marriages who lack the above.

I don't really have a single solid response for how to keep and maintain sexual vigor in a marriage. I really really don't. Marriages differ greatly is why. There was talk of duty sex.. I do want to say this about duty. Women have been playing duty within sexual intercourse for many moons.. Women for a long long long long time have given their men, quote-un-quote, duty pretentious orgasmic responses and maybe the following is a probable for her sexual lack with a few twists.. 

I've seen in *some *cases where men tire of their women sexually. The wife feels her man slipping away from her in that realm and begins to throw her man everything she's got, plus the kitchen sink in hopes of luring him back into her sexual spaces again, but fails. That so called seven year itch may have crept in, she thinks, and now she feels less appealing and no longer cuts the mustard for her man.. Bear with me for just a few more lines.

That wife tries and tries and tries during their passion-less season to regain the thrills (in *some *cases) she and her man once had.. And if he is horny or just sexually relents, she feels like he is only giving in, to quiet her. She is getting more tired with each attempt, but feels like a failure most of those times, though he makes his climatic spills into her well. Know what happens? She soon gives up. By that time she could take her man (sexually) or leave him be. She faked all of those orgasms anyway when their passion was on the higher ground, so there was never a climatic ending for her- Just her same 'ole faked orgasmic sounds of love-comings while meeting his _need_----- Why bother, she then feels. Years and tears have passed by, and by the time her man discovers marriage is a *good *, in some cases-- She could then, care less. The resentment is so deep she doesn't even realize she resents her man, because she's been so busy being dutiful and poised.. For him! Her low drive is now in no drive at all.. The tables have turned.. She is the one who is now relenting to her man and he had better be thankful she feels. For all the BS she's been through trying to make him notice her all those years, he had better. In some cases, the above just might be true.

It will take a few sticks of dynamite to kick start her drive again. 

Just some thoughts.


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

BradWesley said:


> I'm not trying to be a wise ass, but why do you stay with her?




Why do I stay?

Other than the battle in court and the price tag?

1) I would loose daily contact with my daughter. Reading to her, asking how her day went, helping her with math homework, riding our bike together... I have this father daughter bond crap thing going on I can't explain

2) Split Holidays. Spending some without my daughter.

3) Poverty....as of now, we have more debt than assets. Wife would be needing taxpayer money to survive. My wife has a job, but its not enough. Even with child support and alimony. I do feel obligated because I have allowed her to not work for so long.

4)Popularity contests. My wife is my daughters friend. She spoiles our daughter. I don't want to force our daughter to choose. I fear I wouldn't get custody.

5) Visitation crap/ back and fourth, 2 homes, two sets of everything, taking my daughter away from friends Every other weekend.

6) Possible loneliness.... What if it is me? What if I am the phucked up one? 

7) My wife is my only friend, if I can call her that... I am developing friends and a life away from her. I just don't know if they would be around all that much. I will say I am getting better in the friendship department. Its hard to change 20 years of habit.

8) I am still conflicted if my daughter would be better off if we divorced.


9) Finally, I still hope it will improve. ( Hope Springs Eternal) I am still the dreamer. I am trying to be kind no matter what and show happiness. Maybe breakdown our resentments. I am really trying to convince myself that the intact family companionship and being the provider is more important than sex, intimacy, affection, and love. I didn't want to fail at marriage. Yet here I am at the cross roads. 

My decision, no matter what I decide, will effect my daughter for many years to come. It's not just my life, it's the life of my daughter and wife. As of now, my daughter is amazingly confident. I don't want to change that about her personality.


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## Coldie (Jan 2, 2014)

Trickster said:


> Why do I stay?
> 
> Other than the battle in court and the price tag?
> 
> ...


You are very unselfish, and you are with a selfish person. You're not happy with what you get out of the marriage, but you are happy with what you get out of having a family. 

I guess if one person is unselfish and the other is selfish, the selfish spouse will take advantage. Without consequences, it probably will never change.

I'd say that my take on intimacy and sex in marriage is very selfish or self centered. Enough so that I would split up the house if I felt unloved or unwanted by my spouse. I would make that move, because I just don't feel I can be the best man and father that I could be, when I am unhappy, unloved, and unwanted by my spouse (peer / best friend / wife). I'd rather be a happier man, showing my children what a happy relationship and man can be like, than an unhappy man pretending everything is okay and sticking out a marriage just because of them. I'd also want my daughters to know, if they are ever in an unhappy relationship, get out. I'd hate for them to grow up and go through what you are going through. 

However, I have no issues with people being unselfish. The only resolution I'd see to your situation is you actually standing up for yourself. However, if it isn't worth it for you, and you have an idea of being a good father, rather than a person that wants real companionship, that's your choice. Hopefully, no matter what you do, you know in your own head that you would never tell your daughter to grow up one day and be in a marriage where she feels unwanted and unloved. Who would want that for any person, let alone their own kids.


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## Coldie (Jan 2, 2014)

I think my problem was, being young and naive, I just didn't know what I was going through. I didn't know I felt unwanted or unloved. I didn't even know I wasn't happy. 

I said to my wife the other day that it's like growing up in a 3rd world country and all I ever ate each day was rice. If someone asked me if I was happy, I'd would have probably say yes, I am happy. 

That was me. 

Everything I say now is in hindsight, after I have moved to another country (meaning my wife has shown me better --- I did not change relationships) and realized what is really out there. I have experienced better food, a better life, and going back to a 3rd world country and eating rice will never be acceptable to me. In fact, what I was totally okay with then, rice, I absolutely hate now. 

"Duty sex" - rice. I can't even be happy with what feels like duty sex, and my wife understands. Enthusiasm is important, and for me, everything has changed.

I can say, now knowing what I was missing, that I would end my relationship if I wasn't getting what I needed. I just didn't know. Trickster, you actually seem to know exactly what you aren't getting, and you still stick around. That's why I called you unselfish. That's also why I am still in this same relationship even though I said I would have left. I didn't know what I do know now. And for me, being selfish I guess, I would have communicated my needs and if they weren't being met, moved on.


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

Coldie-

I can relate to your rice analogy. I never had good role models growing up. I didn't know what I didn't know.

In my early years, I had good sex with a few women who didn't want friendship and companionship. That was the results of my role models. Now, 22 years with my wife, zero intimacy, but we have companionship. As of a month or so, I accept that no matter what effort I put into our marriage, the intimacy will never be there.

I know better now, I know many older married couples because of my career. I see 50 plus year marriages. One couple with a 62 year happy marriage. I see them in their homes and I see how they treat each other. I saw an older couple in a restaurant sitting at a booth side by side. The wife had her arm wrapped around her husbands. It made me feel good and sad at the same time.

I am out meeting people. I see how some woman respond to me. I see how they look in my eyes, i see their smile, I can almost taste it....Although we have the open marriage thingy, that's not my style. I want one woman. I don't want to start a relationship under the premise of an open marriage. That's not me and not a way to start a loving, caring, intimate, long term relationship.

I will say, in my wife's defense that she tries to be affectionate at times. I know she feels awkward doing that. It doesn't come natural for her. She knows its one of my needs, because I communicate that, she feels like I may think she is doing it because I ask her to, so she doesn't initiate affection....affection is forced!

Does that make any sense at all? It doesn't to me.

Its like she doesn't want to be told what to do!


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## Coldie (Jan 2, 2014)

Trickster, you just opened a whole new can of worms for me that totally isn't related to this thread at all.

Maybe I missed your story, but you are in an open relationship? I mean, I know what that means, I am just curious if this is something you and your wife have discussed and I missed the thread. However, that wasn't my can of worms... it just caught my eye and I'd like to know more. Your reply makes sense but if you want to go in more detail, I'd be interested in reading. 

My can of worms is with the old couple sitting on the same side of the booth. That is a can of worms for me. Me and my wife starting sitting next to each other on the same side of the booth about 3 years ago. This was when our relationship started changing for the better. Lately, specifically in the last 6 months for me, I have purposely motioned for her to sit on the opposite side. The need for elbow room. The need for people not to look at us funny for leaving one side of the booth totally open. I don't know, I over think things. It's easy to slip back in your old ways, and I'd say motioning her over to the other side of the booth is my way of reverting back to my old self. She always lights up and enjoys sitting on the same side. Sometimes I push her away because I worry too much about what other people think of us. I don't want to be too close or annoy people. It's good to know that there are people that see this, and actually see what it really means. I messaged my wife and told her to never let me motion her to the opposite side again. She can sit next to me all she wants. Crazy how a random comment can make me readjust or look into my own actions.


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## Minncouple (Sep 9, 2009)

Similiar senario......

So the Husband (the sole bread earner) works hard and makes a very very nice living, Houses, luxury cars, luxury items, botox, yoga lessons, presents, open cheching account for her to use, never questioned about purchases, weekly maid, weekly pool guy, weekly landscaper, he picks up dinner on the way home most nights. No kids.

He seems stressed all the time, With higher incomes more stress, spends his day fighting and battling in the indusrty that pays for all this. Daily stress is killing him. Attends stress counsuling, and employes all technics he was taught to help cope. She still complains that he isnt "there" for her. Well, he is too busy trying to keep up the lifestyle.

Now the LD wife is hurt that he isnt paying enough attention to her, meeting her emotional needs. She shuts down the sex, he becomes more and more resentful due to the lack of sex. She is clueless, except for knowing her needs arent being met. Expects HIM to put forth the effort to make her happy, then she will have sex.

He feels like with all he does, she should make the effort to cut him some slack, and maybe do more that just her part (which see doesnt do anyways) to be more sexual, then he will be there more for her as he no longer feels like the meal ticket. The wife, is simply clueless that her little effort, could bring her what she is lacking in her marriage.

So, how about them apples. Who is right here, or what can be done to save this marriage?

I would assume plently of women would more than jump at this lifestyle. Assuming the guy is a nice guy, honest, has never yelled at the wife in 19 years, and provides all he can. 

He is blown away that she can not see this simplest thing (her being more sexual and offering sex more) would solve all her issues in the marriage. But, she is the LD and according to her, she is not broken. It's all his fault.

Sorry for the rant, asking for my friend.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

I'd suggest she get a job so that he can also get a different job with less stress that allows them to spend more time with each other, and would give her more of an appreciation for the work he's been doing for 19 years. I don't know why she's been sitting on her butt for 19 years when they don't have kids, and why it's all on him. 

Maybe he needs to reconsider why he's chosen to support a princess instead of a wife.

As for the sex, there is a lot in their dynamic that puts her on a pedestal and makes him a workhorse who gets little in return. Their entire dynamic needs to change or nothing will change about their sex life.


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## Faeleaf (Jul 22, 2014)

Minncouple said:


> She is clueless, except for knowing her needs arent being met.


No offense please, but he sounds equally clueless. 



> I would assume plently of women would more than jump at this lifestyle.


Not in a million years. I have never been sexually attracted to anyone who I wasn't already deeply emotionally connected to. The luxury cars and lavish checking account can all take a hike - I don't want to be a "kept woman." I want a meaningful, fulfilling relationship. No amount of money in the world is worth more than that.

Do you suppose if he was single, saw her one night in a bar, and approached her with, "You're hot and I'd like to sleep with you. If you'll agree to provide regular sex, I will provide a lavish lifestyle for you, with more money than you can spend," that she'd smile and jump in his lap?

Maybe some women would, but I'd be willing to bet that for the most part, even the ones that WANT a successful husband would slap him across the face for treating her like a prostitute. Which he did.

Women fall in love, and STAY in love, because their emotional needs are being met. This isn't a 100% rule, but a pretty good general guideline. When they are asked to provide sex even though those needs aren't being met, they feel like hookers - cheap, disposable, of little value.

Of course, when there is trouble in the relationship, there's almost always TWO people at fault. If you're asking, "which of them is right, and which of them is wrong?" the answer is probably, "Both of them, and both of them." But if that's so, and if someone has to "give" first, who should it be?

The answer is, "Whichever of them can." 

That said, it sounds to me that your friend stopped meeting his wife's needs (time, attention, romance, etc?) _before_ she stopped meeting his (shutting down the sex). That, at least, makes some sense - frequently when a woman is in love, she is willing enough to provide sex, even if she's LD. (Not always, but it sounds like that is what you describe.) When she falls out of love, she stops wanting to have sex. That's a fairly natural pattern, too. 

If so, then I think the onus is on your friend to fix what he's broken first - cut back on the extravagant lifestyle, make more time for her and show her how important she is to him. If she started withholding sex _because_ he stopped doing all these things, can you see how hollow his promise of "If you sleep with me, I'll be better," might sound? After all, she WAS sleeping with him when he started neglecting her in the first place. Why should she believe it would be different now?



> He is blown away that she can not see this simplest thing (her being more sexual and offering sex more) would solve all her issues in the marriage.


Asking a woman to have sex with someone she is not in love with is NOT A SIMPLE THING. I don't think I could do it. I would feel like garbage. 



> But, she is the LD and according to her, she is not broken. It's all his fault.


Let's be fair...neither of them can see the other's side of things. Neither of them thinks the problem is theirs, and both seem to believe it's all on the other spouse to "fix" what they are doing wrong first. 

Unless that changes, this marriage is probably doomed. Since you can (presumably) only give advice to your friend, the best help you can provide would be to urge HIM to make some changes...the sooner, the better.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Faeleaf said:


> The answer is, "Whichever of them can."
> 
> If so, then I think the onus is on your friend to fix what he's broken first - cut back on the extravagant lifestyle, make more time for her and show her how important she is to him.



I don't disagree with your analysis, Faeleaf; at least not directly. My experience is that the entire "System" of corporate America is designed to prevent your suggestion and in that respect is one of the most insidious forms of slavery known to humankind.

At that level, it's not just a matter of deciding you're going to cut back your hours to spend more time with your wife because you *probably* won't be able to do that and keep your job. Extravagant salaries come at the cost of the company believing they own you body and soul. I've been there.

There's probably going to be a fairly sizable reduction in lifestyle and that's where things get interesting and it becomes apparent who really loves whom and why.


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## Faeleaf (Jul 22, 2014)

ocotillo said:


> I don't disagree with your analysis, Faeleaf; at least not directly. My experience is that the entire "System" of corporate America is designed to prevent your suggestion and in that respect is one of the most insidious forms of slavery known to humankind.
> 
> At that level, it's not just a matter of deciding you're going to cut back your hours to spend more time with your wife because you *probably* won't be able to do that and keep your job. Extravagant salaries come at the cost of the company believing they own you body and soul. I've been there.
> 
> There's probably going to be a fairly sizable reduction in lifestyle and that's where things get interesting and it becomes apparent who really loves whom and why.


Agree completely. And the sooner, the better. This is the marriage they should have been having all along. The soul-sucking corporate slavery was a mistake. It needs to be corrected.


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## Coldie (Jan 2, 2014)

Minncouple said:


> Similiar senario......
> 
> So the Husband (the sole bread earner) works hard and makes a very very nice living, Houses, luxury cars, luxury items, botox, yoga lessons, presents, open cheching account for her to use, never questioned about purchases, weekly maid, weekly pool guy, weekly landscaper, he picks up dinner on the way home most nights. No kids.
> 
> ...


So much going on here. And this may seem too simple, but my first suggestion would be, especially if your friend makes a very very nice living, hire a housekeeper, a pool guy, a landscaper, and yes, even someone to maybe make meals. Some housekeepers will grocery shop and cook meals for extra income, so it's possible. Now, I am not suggesting your friend blow his money on things he can do himself, but I am suggesting that if he spends so much time thinking about work, then maybe he should come home and think about his wife. Focus his home energy on her, not the house, pool, yard, and dinner. I personally hate being at home and doing things around the house that has me outside all day. I hate this. I'd rather be inside spending time with my wife and family. But maybe that's why I am not very successful in the same areas as your friend, but so far, very successful with my marriage? That's where my energy goes. Your friend is successful though, and I've learned with success, sometimes comes this drive to be a total do-it-yourself'er. Motivated to do the small things that an average person will procrastinate about. Although this personality brings home the bread, if the wife is lonely and emotionally neglected, it won't matter. Your friend has to shut that drive down at home. If he works to have a better life, he should use some of his income to make his life better. I'd say if your friend loves his wife, she is worth it.

Now, what your friend does, is a true "high" drive. Rather than it being about sex, your friend's high drive is based around taking care of the house, the yard, the pool, and paying the bills. And like I explained about the term "low drive" being low intimacy, I'd feel the type of drive you have is also low intimacy.

A little too much going on for me to answer but I do appreciate you sharing your friend's story. Let's just say this, no matter what I said above about your friend, your friend's wife using sex as a form of punishment is awful. Withholding sex is never good and you can work on your marriage problems while practicing intimacy. It's too bad she doesn't know better, because if she builds enough resentment, you will finish checking out of the marriage.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Coldie said:


> ...I am suggesting that if he spends so much time thinking about work, then maybe he should come home and think about his wife. Focus his home energy on her, not the house, pool, yard, and dinner.


Steve Jobs introduced a management style in corporate America where a person has no time to think about anything but work. 

He threatened executives with their jobs if the project didn't move faster and then screamed obscenities in the boardroom when mistakes happened. He fired people from high paying positions if they failed to have a good idea when he thought they should. Senior execs would elbow and push to avoid riding with him in the elevator because that's when those moments often occurred.

I don't know the situation of the man under discussion, but do know that there are an awful lot of disciples of Jobs running around today. Why do people put up with this? Because 99% of the time a person's lifestyle eventually expands to fit their salary. To lose a position like this is to fall and fall hard. Suddenly, the nice house, the Ford Raptor and the BMW M5 are no longer affordable and some tough decisions have to be made.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

*Why is having sex more important than attention,paying the bills,working 2 jo...*

These were there long before Steve Jobs. He only made them more visible.


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

Didn't mean to derail Coldie... It is related though. Kinda
I'll explain briefly without hijacking. 

My wife wants companionship/friendship and the intact home for our daughter. She has very little romantic desire. She never really did. I wanted to fix that after 17 years of nothing and made many blunders along the way. Nothing worked. Now my wife tells if i want sex more than 3X a month or so I should have sex with other women. So we have a written open marriage contract now. 

It doesn't matter how many hours I work, how much I earn, how often I cook, clean, laundry, dishes, vacuum...or quality time with her as well as my daughter, how large of muscles I have developed, she doesn't desire sex. 

It's not a real open marriage. 

She is willing to outsource sex because she doesn't care for it but she wants to keep an intact home. If sex with other women will make me come home smiling and keeps the marriage together, she is happy...That's it in it shortest simplest form.

I don't get it...


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Trickster said:


> Didn't mean to derail Coldie... It is related though. Kinda
> I'll explain briefly without hijacking.
> 
> My wife wants companionship/friendship and the intact home for our daughter. She has very little romantic desire. *She never really did*. I wanted to fix that after 17 years of nothing and made many blunders along the way. Nothing worked. Now my wife tells if i want sex more than 3X a month or so I should have sex with other women. So we have a written open marriage contract now.
> ...


That is a bit confusing to me. What's not to get. You married someone who does not care about sex.

This is why I find the no sex posts so frustrating. Trying to find solutions without a root cause. Because not all people have the same root cause. Your root cause is you married someone who has no interest in sex _and never did_. She is willing to give it up 3x per month. Or let you get it elsewhere. What's to fix?


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Minncouple said:


> So the Husband (the sole bread earner) works hard and makes a very very nice living, Houses, luxury cars, luxury items, botox, yoga lessons, presents, open cheching account for her to use, never questioned about purchases, weekly maid, weekly pool guy, weekly landscaper, he picks up dinner on the way home most nights. No kids.
> 
> He seems stressed all the time, With higher incomes more stress, spends his day fighting and battling in the indusrty that pays for all this. Daily stress is killing him. Attends stress counsuling, and employes all technics he was taught to help cope. She still complains that he isnt "there" for her. Well, he is too busy trying to keep up the lifestyle.
> 
> ...


Their problems seem like the likely outcome for many couples with the same balance of responsibility they have. Him feeling like a meal ticket and her feeling like an object makes sense given the lifting each one does. Sure I'm projecting a little. But more than that I'm just using what I believe to be true of human nature, pride, self worth, expectations, etc.

Why did they he think her not working was a good idea? I'm guessing it was his pride that she didn't have to because he was such an accomplished man. But how much purpose does she have being his trophy? I don't know but I think it would be unfulfilling for most women. I think she'd be a lot happier participating more but lifestyle changes are scary. When there's no expectations, it's a lot easier to take the path of least resistance.

I believe their motives were both self serving. He was driven by pride and ego and having a trophy wife (I'll be shocked if you say she wasn't a knockout and probably still is pretty). I'm guessing it's a status thing and ego boost for a pretty woman to not have to work as well.


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## tennisstar (Dec 19, 2011)

Are there jobs out there that don't take up your whole life and let you earn enough for a decent lifestyle with some luxuries? Are there jobs that let you "cut back"? Anyone I see cutting back loses their job! People on this board always suggest cutting back, and while I agree that would help, I don't know companies that allow that without reducing the salary so much that the couple would end up having to get rid of everything.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

*Why is having sex more important than attention,paying the bills,working 2 jo...*

Some of us have such jobs. Unfortunately it takes 10+ years of college and work at a company that may not pay as well or advance as much.


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## tennisstar (Dec 19, 2011)

I have an advanced degree and have worked at the same company for 10+ years. All I see is senior leadership asking for more and more. I'm one of the lucky ones - I'm not traveling 75-100% of the time like many people are required.

I would think of looking for another job, bit all my friends have similar situations at their companies. I fear getting im a worse situation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

*Why is having sex more important than attention,paying the bills,working 2 jo...*

The key is to be in an obscure specialty. I'm a PhD working on UX, that is, User eXperience, for a major consumer products company. There's just a handful of us. We do everything from product design to marketing analysis to user trials to regulatory affairs to design analysis to future trends. Mind boggling skill breadth. 

They need a least three people to do my work. So I end up being cheaper even working bank hours. And much of what I do can't be outsourced. The last week I've worked till 8-9 a few days for the infamous exploding oven demo... First overtime since 2012


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good afternoon tennisstar
Yes, especially in large corporations, government, and some universities. You need to work very hard to get into these positions, but its possible to slack off once you are there. Once you slack off your rate of advancement will be very slow. You also need the sort of personality that lets you slack off while your co-workers are working very hard.




tennisstar said:


> Are there jobs out there that don't take up your whole life and let you earn enough for a decent lifestyle with some luxuries? Are there jobs that let you "cut back"? Anyone I see cutting back loses their job! People on this board always suggest cutting back, and while I agree that would help, I don't know companies that allow that without reducing the salary so much that the couple would end up having to get rid of everything.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Coldie (Jan 2, 2014)

I don't get why he has to cut back at work at all. It's the pool guy, landscaper, housekeeper, and bringing home the dinners. This can all be cut back and it has nothing to do with his job. I wouldn't suggest finding a new job or slacking off at work unless he really loved his wife and it was his last option.

However, there is a lot of other things he could cut back on first, by his own admission.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

So you've never worked a sixty hour + twenty hour preparing for the sixty hour a week job?


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## Coldie (Jan 2, 2014)

ocotillo said:


> So you've never worked a sixty hour + twenty hour preparing for the sixty hour a week job?


Me? No. I'd hate that. Life is too short to work 60 + 20 hours a week for a piece of paper or numbers in my bank account. That lifestyle, for me, is something I will look back on my death bed and say, "I wish I would have worked less and spent time with my family more." 

I live by those rules. And if some people think living that type of life is something they wouldn't regret, because they will leave a million dollars to each of their kids, good for them. I'll try to leave a million good thoughts, but the dollars thing isn't going to happen. 

I work 40 a week, and when I leave the office, I leave the office.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

*Why is having sex more important than attention,paying the bills,working 2 jo...*



ocotillo said:


> So you've never worked a sixty hour + twenty hour preparing for the sixty hour a week job?



Why did I spend 10+ years in college? So that I can specialize in something obscure that can't be outsourced, lay back and relax.

What I studied in college also gave me some very good insights into human brain performance... For purely mental work anything over 40 hours is generally not a good idea...


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## MelodyAnn (Oct 20, 2012)

Trickster said:


> Why do I stay?
> 
> Other than the battle in court and the price tag?
> 
> ...


You are a very giving father, and selfless love is the kind where we put someone else's needs above our own. You have that kind of love for your daughter, and that is undoubtedly commendable. At the same time, you haven't given up all hope on your marriage either. You are the dreamer at a crossroads. Part of 'not giving up' is trying all that there is out there to be tried, before deciding to give up. Have you and your wife considered marital counseling? It might be helpful. Although it won't solve every issue for every couple, it will likely get you two communicating again, and get you two to a place where you are both willing to work on things.


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## MelodyAnn (Oct 20, 2012)

Coldie said:


> Now, I am not suggesting your friend blow his money on things he can do himself, but I am suggesting that if he spends so much time thinking about work, then maybe he should come home and think about his wife. Focus his home energy on her, not the house, pool, yard, and dinner. I personally hate being at home and doing things around the house that has me outside all day. I hate this. I'd rather be inside spending time with my wife and family. But maybe that's why I am not very successful in the same areas as your friend, but so far, very successful with my marriage? That's where my energy goes...... Although this personality brings home the bread, if the wife is lonely and emotionally neglected, it won't matter.
> 
> 
> I think this part is sooo awesome. I think your wife should be the happiest woman on earth! If you'd rather be indoors than outside doing yardwork on the wekend for example, so you can invest in taking care of your wife's emotional needs and give her companionship, then you seem like the perfect man in my estimation. I have nothing against yardwork, in principle. It just bugs me when it seems prioritized over spending time together as a couple. So now, the conundrum for me is, if your wife has what many women dream of, why the low desire on her part?


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## Coldie (Jan 2, 2014)

MelodyAnn said:


> I think this part is sooo awesome. I think your wife should be the happiest woman on earth! If you'd rather be indoors than outside doing yardwork on the wekend for example, so you can invest in taking care of your wife's emotional needs and give her companionship, then you seem like the perfect man in my estimation. I have nothing against yardwork, in principle. It just bugs me when it seems prioritized over spending time together as a couple. So now, the conundrum for me is, if your wife has what many women dream of, why the low desire on her part?


For me, this changed about 3 years ago. Me and my wife are intimate twice a day. In the morning before work (we both work the same schedule), and in the evening. Although having an orgasm is optional (usually once a day), we do spend time and physically connect. We both know we are going to be intimate again, so there is no rush or urgency. If it feels good to just lay together and penetrate, maybe kiss on her neck, without getting worked up, that's what we will do. 

Desire is an interesting word though. Because it can be used so many ways. She has and has always had a desire to be a good wife and woman. This helped with us.


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## MelodyAnn (Oct 20, 2012)

Coldie said:


> For me, this changed about 3 years ago. Me and my wife are intimate twice a day. In the morning before work (we both work the same schedule), and in the evening. Although having an orgasm is optional (usually once a day), we do spend time and physically connect. We both know we are going to be intimate again, so there is no rush or urgency. If it feels good to just lay together and penetrate, maybe kiss on her neck, without getting worked up, that's what we will do.
> 
> Desire is an interesting word though. Because it can be used so many ways. She has and has always had a desire to be a good wife and woman. This helped with us.


Sounds like you and your wife have the intimacy part of your marriage nailed . That's good to hear. I admire your persistence in communicating your needs related to intimacy until your wife (apparently from above) became more responsive starting about three years ago. I like hearing the success stories where communication brings the desired effect for a couple and brings them closer.


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