# Elderly mother conflict



## Advocado

My Elderly mother seems to thrive on conflict, is generally a very negative, defensive person and can turn a tiny “throwaway” incident into the spark for ranting for weeks on end about every thing that has not gone right over the last 40+++ years – her favourite line being how undeserving and ungrateful a set of wretched children she has. I cannot in all fairness say she is all bad and I do believe that in her heart of hearts she means well but at the same time she drives me to my wits end with her negativity, glass half empty, selfish, me, me, me attitude. I think deep down she means well but IMO the fact is she just one of those people who rub most other people up the wrong way and I find her impossible to reason with because, in her own words, she is “always right”. I am told I am quite an easy going person but my mother is literally capable of having a disagreement with thin air and she will never “agree to differ”. Moreover, she says I have no right to even ask her to agree to differ and she must “win” every argument. Over the years she has fallen out with so many relatives and acquaintances and for the last 5 years I am the only one of her four children that she is speaking to. I don’t kid myself that she likes me over my siblings – rather she knows there is no-one else to fall back on and so she will push me so far with rants, arguments, guilt trips etc and then pull back just a little when she has almost pushed me over the edge. 

She tells me I am to blame for my siblings not getting along with her - they told her they were jealous of me as I was treated better by her (I’m the youngest) and when my father was diagnosed with the cancer from which he eventually died, she told me it was my fault he got cancer as he spent too much time looking after my kids when I went to work (I worked part time, never more than 14 hours per week and my kids are just your average kids, not angels, but not devils either). 

I saw my mother today and she is spoiling for another of her two month rants/not speaking episodes over something and nothing and I really don’t know how much more of this I can take. Particularly with my daughter present today, I didn’t want listen to my mother rant on and on and quietly said I was going to go home before she could get into full swing, and promptly left. I’ll suffer for that bit time next time I see her – which will be tomorrow as I said I’d go with her to a doctor’s apt. I am dreading it!

Apologies for this long vent but how do I deal with a person like this when that person is my mother. She has genuine health issues so I cannot just turn my back on her. Even though I feel I just want to run away she, much to her annoyance, has to rely on me and my sense of duty means I cannot just turn my back on her.


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## Advocado

My youngest, aged 13, often visits with me but somehow, more often than not, my mother manages to find a reason for falling out with her (even when my daughter was only 5 or 6 years old this would happen) and so my daughter usually spends much of her visits watching TV in another room. I would say my daughter is a very shy, reserved and compliant girl and apart from my mother, I have never had a complaint about her attitude or manners from anyone. I recall one inclident a couple of years back when my mother persistently teased my daughter saying she looked like an animal. Of course my daughter wasn’t going to answer back to her grandmother and ended up crying, whereupon my mother said that she had only been joking and my daughter was being over sensitive and basically needed to grow up. It’s got to the stage when I am apprehensive about going out of the room and leaving my daughter alone with my mother because I worry about what she might say to her in by absence.

Mother only really phones me when she wants something and if the phone is not answered promptly enough I get reprimanded at length, her saying suppose it was an emergency and she needed help. 

She talks about her own health at great length all the time but if someone tries to say something about their own health issues she buts in with how she has experienced what they have but worse. A few years back I told her I would need to change the day I normally did her shopping as I was going into hospital for an op and to this day she has not asked me how the op went or anything. When I began to tell her my husband had new health issues her first response was to interrupt to ask who was going to do her garden for her if he was incapable! (My brother and my husband used to do her garden together until she fell out with my brother).

As mentioned earlier, my mother has to have the last word and win every argument. Today she asked "what have I done for people to treat me the way I have been treated?" (lots of people can't take her and quietly withdraw without explanation, or more likely they have tried to explain but SHE WILL NOT HEAR and they give up and stop contact with her). I have lost count the number of times she has asked this question. I feel bad but I just cannot stand this cycle of conflict she insists on perpetuating and am absolute dreading the weeks ahead until she calms down. 

Any thoughts, suggestions greatly appreciated. Thank you for reading.


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## Caterpillar

If she has always been this kind of person it is unrealistic to expect that she will change now so my question is how do you normally respond when she gets in this state of mind?


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## Mom6547

Keep conversations to the phone. Set out ground rules. Mom I am not going to argue with you. I will make the decisions in my life that are mine to make and leave you to make yours. I will not listen to negative rants about my family. If you want to speak to me, that is how it is going to be. And as soon as she deviates from the rules, click.


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## Advocado

Caterpillar said:


> If she has always been this kind of person it is unrealistic to expect that she will change now so my question is how do you normally respond when she gets in this state of mind?[/QUOTE
> 
> My responses have included keeping quiet and to be patient to try and let her get it all out of her system; If I dare to try to state my side of thngs, mostly I do not get to finish my sentences or if I do she will find a way to take what I have said the wrong way and use it against me. I have also tried writing her letters in an effort to get my feelings across, including acknowledging her feelings whether or not I agree with her. For the most part my letters are ignored.
> 
> So I have come to the conclusion that it is absolutely futile to try to reason with her. IMO she wallows in self pity and feeling hard done by and I do feel sorry for her but she won't be helped. More and more I find I am having to force myself to think positively about my mother and I have tried to make a conscious effort not to label her but this is hard when she too often lives up to the stereotype of being a domineering self-righteous cantankerous old woman.


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## Advocado

vthomeschoolmom said:


> Keep conversations to the phone. Set out ground rules. Mom I am not going to argue with you. I will make the decisions in my life that are mine to make and leave you to make yours. I will not listen to negative rants about my family. If you want to speak to me, that is how it is going to be. And as soon as she deviates from the rules, click.


Thank you for this. I have never set out any ground rules with her before (I doubt anybody ever has actually) and will think seriously about doing this. It seems such an obvious thing to do but I have to admit I'm scared, but I shouldn't let this stop me should I. 

I do have to visit so I cannot restrict conversations to the phone but maybe I can employ your suggestion at her house too. Even if I'm in the middle of a chore I guess I will have to leave it half done and come back the next day or whenever should she start with the ranting or try to provoke an argument.


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## Mom6547

Advocado said:


> Thank you for this. I have never set out any ground rules with her before (I doubt anybody ever has actually) and will think seriously about doing this. It seems such an obvious thing to do but I have to admit I'm scared, but I shouldn't let this stop me should I.


What are you scared of? 

My "coming of age" experience with my mother was a nice one. I will tell a short version of the story. My Mom criticized a religious decision of mine. She never came out and called me names but used rather strong language. Anyone who believes X must be stupid. Well given I just told her I believed X... This went on for a few minutes. I stopped talking just to let the whole experience pass.

I wrote her a letter explaining that I was hurt by her name calling. While I could appreciate that she does not need to agree with my choices, she should refrain from calling me names.

She phone with a not quite apology. You know the one, I am sorry you thought I was calling you names... I sighed internally. We continued talking about life and learning how life goes. She made the comment "everyone figures this stuff at their own rate." And I replied "Don't worry, Mom. It will happen for you too."

She paused, digesting that, then bust out laughing. 

We have never had anything but good natured disgareements ever since. She no longer dances around me when speaking, which used to drive me NUTS. All she and I needed was for me to let my grown up out with her. Then she could treat me like a grown up.

:smthumbup:

I have no idea if that story is the slightest bit helpful.



> I do have to visit so I cannot restrict conversations to the phone but maybe I can employ your suggestion at her house too. Even if I'm in the middle of a chore I guess I will have to leave it half done and come back the next day or whenever should she start with the ranting or try to provoke an argument.


Why do you have to visit? Is there some reason for you to do chores for someone who treats you so rudely?


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## Advocado

vthomeschoolmom said:


> ... I wrote her a letter explaining that I was hurt by her name calling. While I could appreciate that she does not need to agree with my choices, she should refrain from calling me names.
> 
> She phone with a not quite apology. You know the one, I am sorry you thought I was calling you names... I sighed internally. We continued talking about life and learning how life goes. She made the comment "everyone figures this stuff at their own rate." And I replied "Don't worry, Mom. It will happen for you too."
> 
> She paused, digesting that, then bust out laughing.
> 
> We have never had anything but good natured disgareements ever since. She no longer dances around me when speaking, which used to drive me NUTS. All she and I needed was for me to let my grown up out with her. Then she could treat me like a grown up.


This is an encouraging story which shows that the dynamnics can change when someone stands up for themselves and good to know it worked out. (Sadly, my mom doesn't have a great sense of humour!)

It's really hard to define what I am scared of but I think it has to do with a sense of duty and taking care of her because my dad would have wanted her to be well taken care of following his passing. I'm also concerned of what she'll say to other people about me as I know what she says to other people about my siblings and it's not pretty/not deserved! At the same time I guess that these other people she speaks to should be sensible enough to know that there are two sides to every story and, although they may agree with her to her face and say "oh your daughter did .... - how terrible", deep down I think they only say this because they don't want to get on the wrong side of her either, and not necessarily because they believe or concur with her - Hope I'm making sense. 

In general, I'm quite an easy going person but once someone crosses a certain point, I do stand up for myself. I really wouldn't put up with this treatment from anyone else. However, I'm the "last man standing" so to speak as she has completely alienated herself from my siblings. Two of my siblings want nothing more to do with her and one would get involved but my mother refuses to accept any advances/help from him whatsoever. 

Another fear is that my mother would "cut off her nose to spike her face" just to prove a point. When she's in one of her rages sometimes for weeks on end she will not supply me with her shopping list when I ask for it and I end up having to second guess what she might want/need so as the house isn't empty of food. Also ever since I can remember she has told me she never wants to end up in a care home but I know having her live with us would be a complete disaster for all concerned. Strange thing is I recall that she was in the process of arranging for her own mother to go into a care home but this didn't come to pass since her mother unfortunately took a turn for the worse, went into hospital and died there. So I'm thinking why is she constantly guilting me about never letting her end up in a care home when she was about to do this with her own mother.) 

Tip-toe-ing around her hasn't worked for me so I have to force myself to do something different, no matter how scary.
I guess it's a case of "feel the fear and do it anyway" or whatever the phrase is.


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## notsocool

Hi, your Mum sounds a lot like mine and I too am the 'last man standing' among family and friends.
It has taken me until Im in my 40's to work out a way to deal with her that was compassionate to her needs but still leaves me feeling able to cope with her.

I do what I can to meet her needs re appointments shopping etc, but only what I can, I dont push myself beyond that, my own family comes first.
With difficulty I have had to emotionally disconnect from my Mother, it was the only way to prevent her having power over me, or in other words not letting her thoughts or opinions have an impact on me.

I go in to my Mothers apartment and she is in a 'mood' and ready or launches into a rant. I politely listen as if she is some random person I barely know, if her rant is about me personally, I nod or shrug and pretty much agree with everything she says.

I never buy into anything she says and with the emotional disconnect, nothing she says gets under my skin. I see my interaction with her as me doing my duty, respectful, polite and civil, she gets nothing more out of me andnever a reaction to her words any more.

Information is power sometimes, I never tell or discuss anything with her that gives her an opening to be dismissive, rude or vent a negative opinion.

Sad but true, its the only way I can cope with her for my own sanity. I tell her nothing about myself, talk about the weather, world affairs etc anything, but I dont bring up anything personal to me, She brings up things personal to me, fine, look vaguely interested and agree.

She doesnt give a shopping list, well sorry, of course thats manipulation. She doesnt get the shopping. When she bones you about it, look genuinely concerned, listen, agree etc but still dont get the shopping til she gives you a list. That will get old really fast for her. If thats too hard, then take her in whatever YOU think and dont think twice about it being the wrong choice, again listen and agree when she rips into you about everything being wrong.

I know its hard, took me years, she will never change. You have to back off emotionally soshe no longer has the power to hurt you.


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## Advocado

I'm sorry to know you're in a similar position and appreciate your sharing. You must have to be very disciplined with yourself to keep from relapsing into treating her as you would any other person. This is such an achievement on your part, and necessary. If we cannot keep our sanity we are no use to ourselves, our families or indeed the person who is driving us insane.

I am wondering what has your mother's response been since you have changed your reaction to her. I suppose I am hoping that if I react differently, in turn she might also change her behaviour so I am keen to know if your "indifference", if that is the right word, has had any impact on her behaviour.

Even though I try hard to make sure I do not criticise my mother in my children's presence, obviously they draw their own conclusions from their own observations and my 2 older children very rarely go to see her even though she lives within walking distance. In total, my mother has 8 grandchildren and my daughter is the only one she sees regularly but more and more often I feel inclined to leave her at home when I visit, even though this feels wrong. When my daughter was present during the start of the most recent rant I told my daughter afterwards not to take too much notice of Grandma when she gets in one of her moods and not to worry about it. As she was ranting about my daughter I feel perhaps I shouldn't encourage my daughter to visit for a while at least but I feel sorry for my mother as this will be another person lost to her. But then again why shouldn't I shield my daughter from my mother's vicious tongue. I am in two minds.


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## notsocool

Hi Avocado, yes over the years I have relapsed many times, I do feel sorry for my Mother but I reached a stage where she was causing me such angst and stress, I thought I would have to stop seeing her (she lives 10mins down the road), or come up with a strategy that works for me. And as you pointed out, keep myself useful enough for my own family.

I guess in a way it is indifference although at some level I still love her. The disconnect/indifference is a mindset I have to work at to maintain. My Mother has noticed the change, she is extremely intelligent and has manipulated me well over the years, I am 'easy going', guess that kind of put me in line for it. I think she would like to accuse me of indifference,except she cant quite, because I am so damn polite to her.

I believe the biggest mistake you can make is nurturing any hope, that anything you do may change her behaviour. Please dont start anything hoping that. You have to do this for you.

My past is littered with ..if I do this for her or that, If I stand up for myself more, If I explain the logic surely she will see, If I walk out when she treats me that way..and so it goes on and on, other things Ive probably forgotten

All that past stuff is done with a view to HER seeing the light and changing, or reacting to consequences. Not going to happen.

Having said that, I think my Mother has backed off a little. She is a bit frustrated because she doesnt know much about what is going on in my life, therefore not as much ammunition for her. I keep the focus on her. She does ask me outright occasionally, how 'things' are going, and no matter what is happening with me, I brightly say everythings fine, maybe mention something that isnt too personal. 

She still has a rant about other family members that she knows I get on with. I listen to her looking like I value her opinion and never never offer an arguement.

I have always been the same as you, not critisizing my Mother to my children and yes they have drawn their own conclusions. Have also said to them " dont pay too much attention" etc.
My Mother could scarecly conceal her dislike of my oldest son, now 16, other family members noticed the comments she made to him, more when he was younger and urged me to keep him out of her prescence, for his sake. I saw the light, and Mum has seen very little of him.

Its hard enough bringing up children without having them subjected to negativity from their own family members. I also fell for the ' but my children are the only ones she sees'. Dont think Its worth the damage.

Reading over all this..its difficult, I never mean you to sit in your Mothers prescence suffering or stressing in silence, otherwise this stategy isnt working. It has to be a mindset you have, be interested, be kind, thats for you and for her. You feel sorry for her but nothing she says to you matters, could be anyone saying it.


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## Advocado

notsocool said:


> ... I believe the biggest mistake you can make is nurturing any hope, that anything you do may change her behaviour. Please dont start anything hoping that. You have to do this for you.
> 
> My past is littered with ..if I do this for her or that, If I stand up for myself more, If I explain the logic surely she will see, If I walk out when she treats me that way..and so it goes on and on, other things Ive probably forgotten ...


Hello notsocool. These posts are really helpng me clarify what I need to do. When she starts up ranting, I plan to say to her

"I am not going to listen, try to reason or argue with you." 

If she continues I shall politely say goodbye and go, and on my next visit will act as if nothing has happened - until the next rant and then repeat the same line/leave as necessary/next visit act as if nothing ....

For me, I feel I have listened to too much already. Listening makes me like her less and less. Moreover her words repeat over and over in my head long after she has said them. Like you, I do have love for my mother (no doubting that or we wouldn't still be around) but I've got to a point where I just don't want to hear anymore.

I note what you say about not holding out any hope that what I will do will change her behaviour. You are right coz I don't think she could change, even if she wanted to. So yes, I must and will go into this with the sole objective of disconnecting to preserve my own sanity, such as it is.

About not giving her any "ammunition" I have done this e.g she took an instant dislike to my son's girlfriend and so I avoid mentioning her name in my mom's presence. Likewise, I never mention my siblings and their families (sad to say there is one great grandchild that my mother doesn't even know exists!).

I did go with her to the doctor's apt a few days back. She was largely in "silent moody" mode and things were strained but bearable. But I haven't contacted her since - (sigh!) will have to force myself to at least phone her tomorrow to check on her.


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## notsocool

Hi Avocado, If you cant bear to hear your Mothers words it makes it so much harder. Ask yourself why you cant stand to listen to her..the obvious answer is, what she is saying, probably hurtful things that impact on you.

If you can, you need to stop allowing those words to have an impact, I guess thats the crux of the emotional disconnect. If her words get to you, then she still has power over you and believe me she will know it.

In my experience, preparing myself to walk out on my Mother, then return next time was stressful for me. Understand that may not be the case with you.

I know our situations wont be exactly the same but...these old ladies..the only real power they have left is the reaction they can get from others...by making any kind of statement, which Im just guessing youve possibly done before..is a reaction to her..leaving..another reaction..the effort/stress to you (perhaps) to come back calmly next time, reaction again.

These things you are doing, she is the one making you do them, even if its negative to her she still has some control.

Your Dr appointments, I take Mum frequently, used to be terrible, she would say and do things with the purpose of making me uncomfortable..rude to others etc. 
Now, instead of trying to deal with her dealing with others, I play the innocent bystander, she can say and do what she likes. I wander a few steps away or play with my phone or gaze around the room, I take no responsibibliy for her interaction with others, but if she needs me Im there.

So she was silent moody..things were strained..my Mum is an expert at that..creating an atmosphere..I dont / wont buy into it anymore..my voice stays the same (annoyingly) cheerful and polite, look like I havent a care in the world..oh she's silent, so look at a magazine, play with phone, rearrange handbag whatever..Im in control and importantly I refuse to react to her.

I no longer return from my Mothers burning with the things she has said to me. I come home now feeling as if just another job has been completed..I cared for her..I didnt react to her.. I maintained the attitude and emotions that I wanted..the words coming out of her mouth..her problem.


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## Advocado

notsocool said:


> ...
> 
> These things you are doing, she is the one making you do them, even if its negative to her she still has some control.
> 
> ...
> 
> I no longer return from my Mothers burning with the things she has said to me. I come home now feeling as if just another job has been completed..I cared for her..I didnt react to her.. I maintained the attitude and emotions that I wanted..the words coming out of her mouth..her problem.


Wow notsocool - sorry to be so slow but I think I'm starting to get it. Is it something like a child being naughty and getting off on getting a reaction, even a negative one, from a parent? 

So if I understand you correctly, when she starts to rant etc. I need to act as if she were just talking about the weather or some such and respond only with the odd hmm, nod or smile even. I'm not sure if I can do it but I really want to try. I'm wondering how long did it take you to achieve the disconnect. 

Thanks so much for posting.


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## notsocool

It is like the naughty child only so much more complicated.

And yes you do need to act as if she's talking about the weather, it will start out as an act on your part but you really need to convince yourself that whatever she's saying is of no consequence.

I had to have a few goes with my Mother..trial and error..I was occasionally sucked back in to reacting to something and the other day nearly..

She asked me to buy her a pillow, told me the brand, size etc. I got her the exact right one, so took it to her ..i began to make my mistake when I 'expected her to be pleased (we didnt think the store still carried that brand)..walked in with this pillow she'd been on about for ages..I think she knew I was pleased with myself for finding it,so she shot me down in flames..'it was the wrong pillow, wrong size etc etc on and on..

I found myself for the first few moments starting to react...'but it is the same one etc'..then I stopped myself and turned it into 'oh really, it's wrong ? what a shame I'll take it back...which she then didnt want me to do...took the wind right out of her sails..she still complained about it for a while but it was actually obvious she was deflated because she didnt get a reaction from me.

That was another close call for me, but my own fault, I had expected something vaguely positive from her. There is no way I can control what she says or does but I am controlling my reactions and how I feel.

About 1 year ago when I realised how stressed and guilty she was making me feel, she needs my assistance very much, but I hated going there and then one day I came home and thought ..I cant go back, she is having such a bad effect on me.. I talked to my brother, who has little to do with Mum, he said either stop going, or treat her like a job, imagine she is an unrelated person you take care of, therfore nothing she says or does matters.

It was pretty much an overnight metamorphosis for me and yes it was an act to begin with, but with practice it gets easier apart from the odd relapse

It is after all about self preservation but you can still do your 'duty' as well

Good Luck Avocado..let me know if you can how you get on.


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## Advocado

Hi notsocool

Oh yes, it must be so difficult to be on your guard all the time - it's great that you managed to pull things back. 

After sitting down and making a list of neutral topics to talk about, I have to confess I bottled out of phoning my mother yesterday. Today I’m thinking maybe I’ll dispense with trying to force small talk and just politely say Hi Mom, I’m just calling to see if you are alright. Then I’ll leave it to her if she wants to expand the conversation and respond appropriately, but if she’s in silent moody mood, I’ll just politely say “ok Mom, well I won’t keep you” and say goodbye. Job done! 

I was googling how to deal with feeling guilty when I found a website called Daugters of Narcissistic Mothers. It gives the traits of Narcissistic Mothers (NM they call them) and OH MY GOSH I was astonished to find that I could identify my mother with the majority of their points. Strangely over the last couple of days it has crossed my mind that maybe there is some flaw in her make up. Finding this information was such a revelation. 

Do have a look at these links when you have some time. The first one resembles what you have described with disconnection, not reacting and not giving her ammunition. The second link (I think you need to register) is the one which describes the traits of a Narcissistic Mother. I could relate to so much of what they were saying e.g. favouring one child, scapegoating another, divide and rule, manipulation, denial, wanting to be centre stage, guilting, always being right, not acknowledges successes – I could go on and on, and on. 

Low Contact - Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers 

Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers • Login
(if necessary, search for Characteristics of Narcissistic Mothers)

or try the link below if you don't want to register
http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/narcissism-traits.html


There is much to read on this website (they also have a forum) and I have barely made a dent. I think it helps to know I am not alone in coping with this type of thing and at the same time it helps me count my blessings as some daughters have it a lot worse than I do (some have been driven to attempt suicide). 

And you are so bang on about not hoping to change her. If you do indeed identify with their description, do you think believing your mother has a Personality Disorder could help you forgive her and cope better? For my part, not sure yet.


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## Advocado

I read somewhere on the "Daughters ..." website that Narcissistic Mothers often outlive those they terrorise. :rofl: For some reason I had to laugh out loud at this, long and hard - just the way it was phrased I guess/there will be no escape !!!

However, thinking about it now, several hours later, this IS a worrying thought coz I don't want her to make my childrens life a misery after I am gone. As mentioned in a previous post, I try not to tell them negative stuff to bias them against my mother but now I am thinking I need to make some provision to inform them of what to expect/how to deal with her (should indeed they choose to have contact with her) once I have passed on. Hmm:scratchhead:


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## notsocool

Thanks very much for those links..I had suspected my Mother had some kind of Personality Disorder but Narcissism had never crossed my mind. I too could relate the majority of those points to my Mother, its like someone describing her exactly. 

Also good to see that the stategy I have been using is recognised, in some ways I thought it was a bit of a cop out for me, but still the only way I could cope with her.

Teaming that disconnect strategy with some boundaries seems like a good combination. The only issue I had for me setting boundaries was my own lack of strength to keep them in place ie getting up and walking out at certain times. This is a learning curve and Im looking forward to reading more info from those links.

When I've tried to look at my Mother objectively, I had to know at some level that she wasnt balanced or normal, couldnt be. So yes, I think knowing she has a disorder does make it easier to cope with her..I know she has a problem, that I am actually not to blame for everything : ) That I am justified in having strategies to deal with her, that she cant help herself and will never change, It means that all the toxic stuff coming from her mouth really really means nothing...what a relief.

Forgive her..? I dont know, might put that in the too hard to think about basket for now..
For such an intelligent person, I find it hard to believe she didnt know there was something 'amiss' with herself and then do something about it for the benefit of herself and her family, but perhaps that is the nature of this disorder.

It would be ironic if she outlived me, doubt my children would have much to do with her, but that's good, the damage stopswith me and hopefully no more. Thanks again.


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## Advocado

Continue to preserve your sanity Notsocool 

and thank goodness for the internet, forums like these and for your responses. A week ago I was at a complete loss but now feel that bit more equipped to go on. "A problem shared is ... "


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