# Feedback on a tough situation



## Tom3567 (May 24, 2012)

First of all, thank you for taking the time to read this post and provide any thoughts you might have. 

We have been married for 13 years and I'm not sure if I can continue. I got married at a young age (early 20's) and there were warning signs from the beginning. We were engaged less than six months after meeting and married 6 months later. It was all too rushed and I strongly considered pulling the plug a month before the wedding. It's been so long that I don't remember the exact reasons, but it was probably around some of the mental stability and irrational behavior that's plagued our marriage throughout. I knew I was in trouble on our honeymoon when my new wife basically laid in bed in our room half the day and hardly enjoyed our time in paradise. That was after she cried when we entered our first suite because it wasn't good enough. I came home scared and angry that I didn't pull the plug. It was a bad decision and I remember thinking at the time that I would regret it later. I was just too young and stupid to listen to my intuition.

Fast forward 13 years. Our marriage isn't horrible, but it's far from good. There has never been infidelity and as much as I hate the situation, I do trust my wife completely. The biggest issue is that I live in constant tension/anxiety. She is constantly agitated about something and most are what I would consider very small and trivial things. She is wound extremely tight. Morning's tend to be pretty laid back in our house... she is happier and somewhat easy to deal with. By evening time she is a completely different person... very agitated and short-fused. I do my best to stay away after 7pm. There was a number of years that I had to wear headphones when watching TV (two floors below her) because she thought she could hear the TV from that far away. There is a family history of depression and bi-polar. She definitely suffers from depression and I would say it borderlines on light bi polar. She does take medication for depression. A few times she tried to go cold turkey and stop taking depression meds. That was an absolute nightmare.

Outside of the general tension and agitation, I feel very limited on what we can enjoy together because she is so controlling. I love to travel, see new things and spend time outdoors. All of those things are a huge battle and when we do take a vacation, it's fun, but always painful. We spent over $9,000 on a vacation last spring. It was something we wanted to do for a long time as a family and I found the planning filled with constant battles about shortening the trip (she only wanted to do a few days), ensuring we had the best suite, not traveling during her "time of the month"
and going back and forth to ensure we got a specific room that she wanted on the ship. Nothing simple and a big battle even in the planning stages. A week before the vacation, after fighting to do a shorter trip, she got excited and wanted me to change all of the flights and make it a longer trip. Ugh. The trip was good, but still filled with stupid little squabbles because she didn't want to go to shows, enjoy dinner, etc..... This is one small example of what it's like to handle the situation daily.

Our child is the most important thing to me in the world. Honestly, if she wasn't in the picture, I would have been gone long ago. At eight years old, she is starting to lash out at my wife more often. She sees the squabbles and I think she's also starting to realize how irrational her mom can be and it frustrates her just like it does me. I try hard to ensure we present a united front (even when I don't agree with my wife), but as she gets old she sees right through it.

God is also an important part of my life. My wife has always kept religion at arms length, and recently decided she had so many doubts about religion that she would attend church, but not sit in the sanctuary. She wants our daughter to be involved in the church and have a relationship with God, so she goes but sits in the hallway and watches on a monitor. I decided to start sitting with her out there so we could at least be together. Years ago, she started leaving our room in the middle of the night and sleeping in the guest room. Now she just sleeps in the guest room all night/every night. I've asked her many times and she brushes it off as my snoring and being able to sleep better in her own bed. Not a huge deal, but one more case of us not being connected... kind of like roommates.

Final issue ... while I am an eternal optimist, she is constantly negative. She deals with one supposed health issue after another... I'm sure some are real, but I'm also pretty certain others are perceived. We are constantly canceling outings, trips with family, etc because of one health issue after another. I am more than supportive, but it's frustrating especially when I think most of the little health issues are in her head.

Now the positive. My wife loves our daughter wholeheartedly. She works extremely hard to provide the best possible environment for her. She constantly donates her time to the school and is a VERY involved Mom. She also is very aware of some of her issues and tries to work on them, but there is little improvement.

Right now, there is absolutely no question that I would be happier spending my life with someone else. The real question is whether our daughter is better off with us together or apart. On one hand, I want her to see what a healthy/happy spousal relationship looks like. On the other hand, I would do anything to avoid upsetting her "world" and turning things upside down. If that means that I live in an unhappy marriage, I'm ok carrying that weight.

Your thoughts are appreciated. In 14 years, I have never shared these issues with another soul. For what it's worth, I don't hate my wife. I feel sorry and have compassion for her. 

All I really want is a peaceful, loving home where we have fun together and live out our dreams. I don't think I'm asking too much.

Tom


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## Astrid (May 23, 2012)

First, I can appreciate your situtaion. My husband is very similar to your wife in so many ways, that even though your marriage isn't bad there is a lot of negativity and tension surrounding you causing you to be unhappy. That's exactly how I feel.

I know I'm not offering much help, but I wanted to let you know that I read and I can relate and I look forward to your feedback and hope things work out for you.

Good luck!


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## lamaga (May 8, 2012)

Oh, Tom. My heart goes out to you.

Well, only you can decide -- you know that. What you'll get here is opinions from various sides which may or may not resonate with you.

Here's my take -- my husband had a wife like yours. Like you, he didn't want to leave because of his children...he finally did, when he thought they were old enough. But now he sees the result of them growing up in a home with an irrational, volatile mother, and he wishes he had acted sooner. The boys are emotionally shut down and given to lying to avoid any kind of stress, and the girl is, alas, adopting some of her mother's tactics.

That's just my situation, may or may not have any relevance to yours. But this doesn't sound like much of a marriage to me, and no, you are not asking too much.

I hope you will continue to post -- lots of good people on here, lots of differing opinions, so somewhere in there you may find some comfort. Good luck.


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## plerner (Feb 28, 2012)

14 years is a long time to be together and adding a child to the mix makes decisions much harder. I am in a similar place. My husband has been very distant and cold towards me since February when he asked for a divorce and I asked to work on the marriage. (Found out he was having an online affair with a girl in Utah.) Since February I have been trying to make decisions that are best for the kids. Our youngest is very much a Daddy's boy. 

I think you should pray about this and ask God for guidence. It is probably healthier for you to be divorced but it sounds like your child should live with you and not your wife which will probably be hard to do in the court system. 

I do hope you find the solution that is best for you and your daughter. Good Luck and stay strong.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Tom, welcome aboard.

I too feel for your situation. I have been married 29 years to a difficult woman, and decided to stay after the first baby was born. I was on the verge of pulling the plug when she got pregnant. 

My wife has her own psych idiosyncracies due to child sex abuse (which she did not tell me about until very recently). I do see _some_ warning flags for abuse in what you wrote about your wife. Do you know if she has an abuse or assault history, or other abuse issues in the family, or perhaps an alcoholic or Borderline parent? If so it is a definite indicator that your wife's issues are deeper than a touch of depression or bi-polar.

In any case, I think it clear that your wife's issues are not going to improve. She is certainly never going to be the happy optimistic loving wife you _deserve_ in your life.

I would suggest you read the book "Too Good to Leave, Too Bad to Stay". Read it, put it away for a month, read it again. You might also really benefit from a little individual therapy. You are likely a bit shell shocked in this relationship and can't see the forest for the trees. Getting some impartial outside perspective may be helpful to you.

I suggest a non-clergy non-religion based therapist. No offense, but religious oriented therapy tends to go along the lines of forgive your spouse for any misbehavior and then stay married forever by subverting your needs to your spouse's needs.

My _opinion_ (worth what you're paying for it) is that you should strongly consider a divorce. The main reason is _the welfare of your child_. Sounds counter intuitive, but in your case you have a child who is 100% of the time in a dysfunctional household with a mother who is inflicting some measure of emotional trauma (abuse...) on her. If you were to divorce and get 50% custody, your daughter would be 50% of the time in your healthy house and only 50% of the time in her mother's dysfunctional house.

I know my eldest daughter harbors resentment towards me for not protecting her from her mother. How's that for a mule kick to the head as a father? And she is right, I should have found a way to protect her. I thought I was doing "the right thing" by staying, but it turns out that harm was done by my staying.

On top of all that, you deserve a happy life. If you stay, the resentments will build, and you will be miserable as you count down the years until your daughter graduates high school so you can finally divorce your wife. At that point you will be older, less likely to attract a new mate (though certainly let's be positive about it at any age!), you and your wife will have more assets that she will get half of (including your retirement savings), and you may well have to pay her alimony for the rest of your life!! Getting out now may be the best option all around.

Be sure to be comparing reality to reality. That is, don't compare divorce to the perfect married family. Compare divorce to your very imperfect married family.

Only you can make the decision. Trust your gut. Best of luck.


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## 827Aug (Apr 27, 2008)

You may want to try marriage counseling or individual counseling before making a final decision.


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## eternal_optimist (May 30, 2012)

Whoa, Tom - our stories are eerily similar. I've only started one thread, but you might want to check it out. I was also married young after very little time together to a guy who suffers from bipolar disorder. Luckily, he has never wanted kids so that is not an issue for me. It struck me that you also referred to yourself as an eternal optimist (see my username).

I am trying to go about this from the mindset that maybe I'll never find anyone else. If I can be OK with that, I'll know I'm ready to leave. I'm in IC and suggest you do the same. My therapist is helping me stand my ground and demand the things I need out of this marriage if it's to continue. It's not working so well for our relationship, but it is giving me the mental clarity I need. Good luck to you.


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## Eagles Dancing (Jun 3, 2012)

I can also relate to your situation. High maintenance is what it sounds like....which is a form of control.

My opinion is you will never find happiness with her and that is her control on you.

I have stuck it out with my husband for 25 years now.

I see my son acting like his father and it sends chills down my spine. Staying with her because of a child isn't always the right answer.

If I had my life to redo...I would have left when the fights started happening in front of my kids. No one should have to walk around on egg shells in their home.

Home is a place for peace and happiness. If your's isn't...then you need to find the happiness somewhere else.

Best of luck and may your path lead you to a better place.


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## Tom3567 (May 24, 2012)

Thank you all for the great feedback. The last year has had its' fair share of ups and downs, but I worked incredibly hard to find the best in this situation and hold together. At the end of the day, the BS and irrational behavior continues and I just don't think it's salvageable.

I am planning to speak with a couple of lawyers in the coming weeks. The ONLY factor slowing me down at this point, is the thought of how this will affect my baby girl. This is going to hit her extremely hard and the thought of hurting her with my decision is more than I can bear. The thought of not being with her 50% of the time really sucks as well. She is a great kid who is full of life...

The chances of anything more than 50% custody as a male in our system is not good. Even with the resentment I have towards W, I can't imagine limiting her custody to less than 50% either.

I guess if this process was easy, it'd be past me years ago....


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## 827Aug (Apr 27, 2008)

Sorry things have not worked out well for you and your family. Wishing you well on the journey before you.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Tom, thanks for the update.

Ideally you and your wife would be happy, and your child would grow up in a happy home with both of you. But, that is not possible. Reality is either she grows up in your tense and difficult home (she does see and understand what is going on between you and your wife), or she has divorced parents who each have a healthy and happy home.

Having parents who are divorced is not perfect for a child, but you can make it ok for her.

Good luck.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Tom, some of the behaviors you describe -- i.e., emotional instability, lack of impulse control, temper tantrums, irrational behavior, and very controlling behavior -- are classic traits of BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). I therefore suggest you take a look at my description of BPD traits in my post at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/33734-my-list-hell.html#post473522. If that description rings several bells, I would be glad to discuss them with you. I lived with a BPDer exW for 15 years. Take care, Tom.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Sounds like my SIL. I don't know how my brother can stand being married to someone with what I see as a clear case of Münchausen syndrome by proxy.

She is constantly getting my nephew and niece tested and diagnosed for obscure illness. She thought my nephew had a heart murmur, so she took him to have a catheter feed up through the large artery in the thigh.

Another time, when my nephew broke his arm, she rejected all the local doctors and flew him to another country. The doctor there misset the fracture.

Whenever on holiday she packs enormous suitcases with enough stuff to live a month without doing laundry.

She often wears a furrowed brow.

However, she is a moral person. She is capable of hard work, but has had live in maid nanny to take care of my niece and nephew their entire lives. My nephew just started college.

Anyway, my brother only had one girlfriend. He was virgin and she reeled him him direct to the alter.

He can stand it. You can't, everyone is different.


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## Tom3567 (May 24, 2012)

It has been two years and four months since I posted my story. Nothing has changed and if anything it's only gotten worse (especially for our daughter). This could be in my rear view mirror if I had taken decisive action two years ago.

I spent hours this morning reading up on BPD and, sadly, it's almost a perfect description of my wife. I feel so badly for her, because I know if she could snap her fingers and make it go away, she would. That said, I can't live this way anymore or put my daughter through it. I've setup an initial consult with an attorney this week. It will be a paid consultation to really understand the process, division of assets and custody. I want to better understand exactly what's ahead of us.

I think we may be able to work through an uncontested divorce process and target a healthy co-parenting relationship. She's said in the past that she would never attempt to get spousal maintenance if we divorced, but that's just not realistic. Although she has a bachelors degree she hasn't worked for 10 years and it will take her some time to re-enter the job market. Not sure if that means I'll be paying a couple thousand or many thousand in monthly maintenance.... I'm hoping the attorney can help me understand directionally what I'm faced with.

It looks like child support is a simple formula in my state and will be around $1,400 per month.

I will keep everyone updated and really appreciate the support. I'm a pretty confident person that always has a well laid out plan.... my mind is all over the place right now feeling sadness, compassion and hopelessness. I've actually day-dreamed over the years about a life free from this pain, and it's encouraging to think about light at the end of the tunnel.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

If she is a real BPD the divorce will likely get very ugly. Best be prepared for the worst but hope for the best.

Remember that the more assets you keep, the better you are able to provide for your daughter and her future. So I would not be generous with spousal support. If she gets enough that she doesn't have to work, she'll never have motivation to go to work. You can always voluntarily give her more such as pay for a repair to her car, but if she squanders money you give her in spousal support that money is gone forever. It could have gone for your daughter's education, etc.

There's a good book called something like "A man's guide to a civilized divorce" which describes the mediated divorce and offers some common sense advice on being fair to her but also fair to yourself.

Good luck.


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## Tom3567 (May 24, 2012)

Good points... I'm not sure if her behavior would support a full blown diagnosis, but when I read through 10 signs of BPD, a solid 8 mirror her behavior. Candidly, I think she is somewhat ready to walk away as well.... I don't know how/if that will translate to a fight during the proceedings, but I do need to plan for the worst.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Calling it now... OP will be back in November of next year to tell us how things have only gotten worse.


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

Tom3567 said:


> It has been two years and four months since I posted my story. Nothing has changed and if anything it's only gotten worse (especially for our daughter). This could be in my rear view mirror if I had taken decisive action two years ago.
> 
> I spent hours this morning reading up on BPD and, sadly, it's almost a perfect description of my wife. I feel so badly for her, because I know if she could snap her fingers and make it go away, she would. That said, I can't live this way anymore or put my daughter through it. I've setup an initial consult with an attorney this week. It will be a paid consultation to really understand the process, division of assets and custody. I want to better understand exactly what's ahead of us.
> 
> ...


She will most likely make it an "ugly" divorce. Just as you have lived for years in a tension filled enviroment created by her she will do it much more so during a divorce. They seem to feed and fuel on drama and as you said in an earlier post many times over little things which snowballs into big issues. 

Unless she is willing to seek some therapy the dynamic will never change and will probably get worse as your daughter gets older and becomes more independent. Your best bet will be to hit her hard and fast with a divorce. Have a complete and realistic plan. The more in control and the more detailed you are on day one the less she will have to create conflict. 

Trying to reason with her and make "amicable" decisions with her will be near impossible depending on exactly what her emotional/mental issues are. It will just always lead to conflict or they become the victim and your out to take advantage of them.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Tom3567 said:


> Good points... I'm not sure if her behavior would support a full blown diagnosis.


Tom, the diagnostic threshold for "having BPD" is set very high because therapists generally are loath to tell a client she has it, the courts don't like to institutionalize people, and the insurance companies don't want to cover treatments. Clearly, the best interests of abused spouses were not considered when that threshold was established. The result is that a person meeting only 80%-90% of the diagnostic criteria (thus "not having BPD") may be nearly as impossible to live with as a person meeting 100%. Hence, what is important is not whether your W "has BPD" but, rather, whether she is on the upper end of the BPD spectrum.



> I think she is somewhat ready to walk away as well.


That would not be surprising. My marriage to a BPDer lasted 15 years, just like yours has. My experience with the ex-spouses of BPDers is that the BPDers typically walk away after about 12-15 years of marriage. As the years go by, the BPDer typically becomes increasingly resentful of your inability to make her happy -- an impossible task. She also becomes increasingly fearful of abandonment as she sees her body aging. It therefore is common for the BPDer to eventually preemptively abandon her spouse as a way to end the growing abandonment fear -- and to prevent him from doing it to her.



> I don't know how/if that will translate to a fight during the proceedings, but I do need to plan for the worst.


I agree with Thor that, if your W has strong BPD traits, the D likely will get very ugly very quickly. As you already know, BPDers tend to be very vindictive when they split a person black. Moreover, because abandonment is their greatest fear, their rage is likely to be triggered big time during the divorce process. Indeed, even if the BPDer decides to preemptively abandon you, she likely will feel that YOU are the one who is abandoning her (through projection). 

My BPDer exW, for example, abandoned me by having me arrested on a bogus charge and thrown into jail. She quickly obtained a R/O barring me from returning to my own home for the 18 months it takes to get a D in this state. She also filed for divorce and had me served. Yet, when the case finally went to court and the judge asked her whether she still wanted the D, she said "No, but my husband does." The judge, who was familiar with our case by that time, simply rolled her eyes and approved the divorce decree.

I therefore suggest you read _Splitting: Protecting Yourself while Divorcing a Person with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder._ It offers advice on protecting yourself both legally and emotionally. If you would like to read more of my experiences with a BPDer, you may want to take a look at my posts in Maybe's thread at the link I provided in my post above. I also list the typical red flags at 18 BPD Warning Signs.


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## Tom3567 (May 24, 2012)

Uptown, I just read through the 18 warning signs post. With the possible exception of #11, she fit every single one to a T.

It's so incredibly hard because I've been the core of her support mentally, emotionally and financially for 15 years. The thought of not being there for her makes me sick to my stomach. Not sure how to process that.

Hopefully the attorney meeting this week will help as I wrap my arms around the process and get comfortable with the future outlook.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Tom3567 said:


> Uptown, I just read through the 18 warning signs post. With the possible exception of #11, she fit every single one to a T.
> 
> It's so incredibly hard because I've been the core of her support mentally, emotionally and financially for 15 years. The thought of not being there for her makes me sick to my stomach. Not sure how to process that.
> 
> Hopefully the attorney meeting this week will help as I wrap my arms around the process and get comfortable with the future outlook.


Carry a var on you so she doesn't get you kicked out of the house on a false DV charge.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

You might want to read the book "Codependent No More".


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Tom3567 said:


> Uptown, I just read through the 18 warning signs post. With the possible exception of #11, she fit every single one to a T.


Tom, I provide a more detailed description of those behavioral traits at my post in Maybe's Thread. I agree with *Tom67* that carrying a VAR is important as a way of protecting yourself from false arrest. 

I also agree with *Thor's* suggestion of reading _Codependent No More._ If you've been living with a BPDer for 15 years, you almost certainly are an excessive caregiver like me. That is, your desire to be needed (for what you can do) far exceeds your desire to be loved (for the man you already are). Shari Schreiber provides a good explanation of how we likely got to be this way in childhood at Core Injury.


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

Tom3567 said:


> Uptown, I just read through the 18 warning signs post. With the possible exception of #11, she fit every single one to a T.
> 
> It's so incredibly hard because I've been the core of her support mentally, emotionally and financially for 15 years. The thought of not being there for her makes me sick to my stomach. Not sure how to process that.
> 
> Hopefully the attorney meeting this week will help as I wrap my arms around the process and get comfortable with the future outlook.


You wont even realize how much she has leaned on your support until you start to not do it. It happens slowly over time and what Uptown said is true it becomes excessive, the more you give it the more they take, the more you feel the need to do. 

It struck me when my stbx left. When I became "the monster" she sealed her world off from all her old friends...everyone jumping full bore into the new life. All her old friends commented over and over they had no idea what she would do without me, the stable influence, the rock in her life etc etc. It sounded more like the white knight than a husband. 

You lose part of yourself in the role and it takes time to find that part of yourself again. You also will realize how much the role of being the core of everything for her has worn on you.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

You didn't write anything about your (non-existent) sex life. Expect her to throw a little bit of agitated pvssy-do-your-best rescue relationship sex at you. Probably you no longer feel attraction towards her.

If is hard to imagine your wife changing. But after you file for divorce, if she goes to IC and really makes and effort, you can give her a chance. Not false hope but a chance. Perhaps the goal will be a healthy co-parenting relationship.

When you go on holiday, does your wife take a lot of unnecessary stuff that is never used, just packed and unpacked?


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## lancaster (Dec 2, 2013)

Tom I can identify with much of what you wrote in your opening post. I too married to quickly, and now am with my wife as we have a baby. I am trying to decide if staying together is the right thing. Chances are that it probably is not. 

I wish you and your family all the best. It does sound as though D is a good decision in your case. I think eventually it will be in mine too.


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## Tom3567 (May 24, 2012)

Met with the attorney today. Wow, for $250/hr they definitely don't have any sort of IQ requirement. He provided the exact guidance and feedback I was looking for, but took about twice as long as he needed to. He shared some good ideas and was helpful, but quite honestly just felt slimy. His office was a pit and I just didn't get the feeling he was someone that I could partner with through the process. For the money I'm going to spend, I need to be comfortable.

A couple key bits of information:

1. Most likely given length of marriage, I'd be looking at 7-10 years of spousal maintenance. Much better than permanent alimony which I'd be looking at five years from now.

2. With a large up front cash settlement, may actually be able to buy her out of alimony. This is important because she couldn't come back asking for alimony later.

3. Marital assets are pretty much a 50/50 split.


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