# Beta Males ????



## Lukedog (Nov 18, 2015)

Are there any threads on here dealing with Beta Males and how to deal with their issues? If there are I would really love to read the issue and the comments/advise that goes along with it. 

I have been a member on TAM since November 2015. Have been reading MANY threads and the comments given by you all, but I have not posted a thread of my own, yet. I have gained a lot of insight to myself, my husband, and some of our issues by reading some of the advise given. But I have not come across a thread dealing with a TOTAL Beta Male. 

I believe this describes my husband the best. We have so many issues in our 21 year marriage, issues that have been rug swept and not resolved for many many years, that I don't know where to start with him. Don't get me wrong, we have talked about the issues, we have argued about our issues. I have stated what it is or was that I needed from him regarding XYZ. I have asked nicely, a have begged, I have gotten nasty, etc. Over the years he has just liked to bury his head in the sand and pretend that everything will work itself out and he won't have to deal with it. I have started somewhat, discussions, our "own" therapy, just don't know how to keep it going. He's not a reader so even if I give him an article to read it takes him days. Getting through a book together would take a year. We tried MC before but it wasn't working. Not at that time anyway. He is not self-motivated, and everything that I have tried to do to help repair and resolve our issues I have to initiate. Even after he has said we should have talks once a week (not enough IMO) ..... the first four weeks went well, even tho I had to initiate the conversations. The last three weeks, not so much.

1. Communication is an issue. He is conflict avoidant.
2. Finances are an issue.
3. Sex is an issue.
4. Alcohol is an issue (his....not mine)
5. Health matters are issues (both of us)

Given the list above, I don't know which section would be appropriate to post in. Any direction you all can give me would be appreciated. Any further details can be given accordingly.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

From the things you l list
1) this could be classic beta. But is it so bad? Hopefully there is not much to have conflict about.

2). This is really not a beta issue at all. This is someone who does not manage money well / does not have a good job. Which is the problem here? 

3). Is it a problem with quality or quantity of sex? Again not really a beta issue - lots of beta types really enjoy sex, they just don't aggressively seek it out. Does he know what you want and not do it? 

4). Alcohol is a big issue - and that could be a significant cause of all the others. Does he recognize that he has a problem?

5). Does he have health issues not related to alcoholism? 


I think that there are a number of real problems, but I don't see them as an alpha / beta thing. All his being beta does is makes him avoid conflict rather than shouting at you, but neither would change the underlying problems.


----------



## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

He actually sounds depressed. A lot of people in general become conflict avoidant if they grew up like that, in a house where their voice was never allowed to be heard, and/or their partner treats them that way. If you both have health issues, not having enough sex, and he's got an alcohol problem, he sounds depressed. I have a feeling if he stopped drinking, started working out ...those two things alone would improve things. 

I also would stop initiating so often, let him step up. Men need to feel respected and supported by their partners, and if you are doing everything, he will never step up. I hope things get better for you guys.


----------



## Begin again (Jul 4, 2016)

My husband is mostly like you describe. Very conflict avoidant, but he would turn angry/passive aggressive/stonewall when I tried to deal with things. Not sure if your husband just avoids entirely, but either way it will cause huge issues.

The only thing I can tell you is that I spent a decade trying to change him, gave up, and left. In hindsight, he would have benefited from coming on TAM, as he would have been given some tough love from the men here. But he probably wouldn't have posted or stayed.

That's the hardest part about conflict avoidant people / they will take no action to change since dealing with inner things is what they fear most. And you cannot make him do anything.

If I were you, I would leave. Period. Don't spend another day trying to do anything to save your marriage, because it will not work. You can only make yourself better, but that will not change him. 

Good luck, and I hope you have the strength to do what I think you already knew you needed to do when you came here back in 2015.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

No one can be a total Beta or a total Alpha.. if they were.. not a soul would be attracted to them, or be able to have a relationship with them.. for very different reasons... a man is a mixture of both.. a great imbalance could cause many issues though.. 

When it comes to these terms, so I've learned here, people interpret them differently to begin with.. so it seems no advantage to even use them.. but instead just focus on the areas he is NOT meeting your marital needs... if he's being emotionally abusive, Cold, distant... not taking responsibility.. even an Alpha male (according to the definitions I use - may be lazy, but yet he may be so good looking, women over look it & are in awe of his charm..... 

I did a thread exploring these different interpretations here.. 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...ns-beta-male-good-all-p-whipped-pathetic.html 

Let me ask you this... How has he changed since before you married ?
You mention alcohol.. is he an alcoholic ? This right here can rip any marriage apart with the wife pulling her hair out. 
Was the communication ever good? 

Does he fear being honest with you -you did say he ARGUES... so he's dishing something back.....does he ever admit hes missed it -or is he too proud to go there... Sometimes when one is humble about their faults.. they show more desire to put forth changing them. 

Could be he's just resolved to the fact nothing will change, he may not care enough himself.. sometimes it takes a rude awakening.. to see what one may lose even...to get him motivated ....have you threatened to leave -but never did, for instance ??

Some people's temperaments are more conflict avoidant over others.. and often opposites attract here ... These couples can still manage well in a relationship if their spouse understands their being wired to not want to "rock the boat" - peace keeping is often their aim... Still there are ways to get them to open up & reveal themselves more so...finding better ways to communicate.. 

But then sometimes a person is so dysfunctional (addictions, or maybe he is depressed- no motivation -feels hopeless) -that it's like having our hands tied behind our backs.. nothing can get through..sounds you may be here...


----------



## Lukedog (Nov 18, 2015)

uhtred said:


> From the things you l list
> 1) this could be classic beta. But is it so bad? Hopefully there is not much to have conflict about.
> 
> 2). This is really not a beta issue at all. This is someone who does not manage money well / does not have a good job. Which is the problem here?
> ...


----------



## KillerClown (Jul 20, 2016)

He is not a Beta male. He is a lazy drunk. I'm not trying to be flippant. But since you're trying to put a label on who he is, let's be honest.

To solve all your problems he needs to:

A) stop drinking
B) start exercising

It's probably not going to happen. So the question is, can you live with that?


----------



## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

Since this has gone on for 21 years, it's also important to be honest if you make it hard for him to want to deal head on with conflicts. If in every conflict, you end up not listening to his needs, wants, voice, etc....that will slowly cause someone to become more conflict avoidant. Not excusing his behavior because I think he has other issues that are causing depression, tbh. But, if we women don't respect our men, they will do one of two things, either leave or stay, but shut down. Not saying you don't respect him, OP, but it's something to think about maybe.


----------



## Lukedog (Nov 18, 2015)

SimplyAmorous said:


> No one can be a total Beta or a total Alpha.. if they were.. not a soul would be attracted to them, or be able to have a relationship with them.. for very different reasons... a man is a mixture of both.. a great imbalance could cause many issues though..
> 
> When it comes to these terms, so I've learned here, people interpret them differently to begin with.. so it seems no advantage to even use them.. but instead just focus on the areas he is NOT meeting your marital needs... if he's being emotionally abusive, Cold, distant... not taking responsibility.. even an Alpha male (according to the definitions I use - may be lazy, but yet he may be so good looking, women over look it & are in awe of his charm.....
> 
> ...


----------



## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Picking one example out of your posts, the electrical problem. What would happen if you hired an electrician?


----------



## Lukedog (Nov 18, 2015)

@deidre......You are right. I don't respect him. The first ten years or so of our marriage were good. It's been the last 8-10 years that have not been good. Because things have gone on for so long, his unwillingness to address the issues, his procrastination over everything, his choosing to soothe himself with alcohol (and other things) instead of "me" and addressing those issues together, I have lost a lot of respect, faith and trust in him.


----------



## Lukedog (Nov 18, 2015)

Wazza said:


> Picking one example out of your posts, the electrical problem. What would happen if you hired an electrician?


Would have to figure out how to pay for that first. Because we have not been able to discuss the finances and how to get this stuff taken care of, repairs in our house have fallen by the wayside. This electrical issue is an issue that he knows needs fixed but has done nothing about. Even when he had control of the finances and he knew what was coming in and what was going out ....

What would happen if I just went ahead and hired the electrician? it would get done that's for sure, but not sure how the bill would get paid. And he would get a little pissed that I went ahead and did it without "consulting" him first. And I would probably hear something to the effect of "that's not how I would have handled it." I heard that a few times before from him, in particular, when my car battery died one night.


----------



## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

Lukedog said:


> @deidre......You are right. I don't respect him. The first ten years or so of our marriage were good. It's been the last 8-10 years that have not been good. Because things have gone on for so long, his unwillingness to address the issues, his procrastination over everything, his choosing to soothe himself with alcohol *(and other things)* instead of "me" and addressing those issues together, I have lost a lot of respect, faith and trust in him.


What other things?


----------



## Lukedog (Nov 18, 2015)

Rowan said:


> What other things?


Meaning: Looking at porn/pics of women to satisfy his own sexual needs by his own hand.


----------



## KillerClown (Jul 20, 2016)

Lukedog said:


> @deidre......You are right. I don't respect him. The first ten years or so of our marriage were good. It's been the last 8-10 years that have not been good. Because things have gone on for so long, his unwillingness to address the issues, his procrastination over everything, his choosing to soothe himself with alcohol (and other things) instead of "me" and addressing those issues together, I have lost a lot of respect, faith and trust in him.


So for the first ten years of the marriage he was not drinking, physically fit, getting things done around the house and you both had a healthy sex life? Or is it that he has always been the same but you just became unhappy about it in the last ten years?


----------



## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

This his how you fix your beta problem. It's is very simple. 

HAVE OPTIONS.

That's it. People with options do not become beta. What does that mean? It means not settling. In marriage terms, since this place is called TAM, is straightforward.

You do this by continuing to date your spouse forever. You treat them exactly as you would while you were dating. Doing all the same things you did before. You continue to stay in peak physical condition, you dress nicely, you groom yourself, you do not take them for granted, you treat them with respect and you demand the same in return.

And if the day ever comes when it all goes south??? Whether that be 30 days or 30 years later, you dump them like last weeks garbage and replace them. Because you'll still be in peak physical form and you have OPTIONS. Replacements will be swooning to scoop up a catch like you and your soon to be ex knows it. People with options do not become desperate codependents, they are secure in themselves and therefore the happiness they feel comes from within. It comes from simply looking in the mirror. So transition is easy for them.

These are ALL changes you can make. You can't change or fix broken people. They will never be happy. It's an impossible standard to live up too. Nor are you the source of their happiness or vice versa. Find someone to be happy with not someone to make you happy. That's being alpha.


----------



## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

> *Lukedog said*: He has not changed very much, except to become more conflict avoidant, emotionless, and procrastinates more over everything. In general, he just does not take care of things. He doesn't take care of the things that he should be taking care of, the things that I can't. He's not a handy man, that's for sure. But if I can't fix the electrical problem in the bathroom, and he can't fix it, then hire someone who can before the damn house burns down! (BTW, we have had that electrical problem for 12 years now).


 This would be very frustrating -yes.. but do you have the money to fix these repairs ? It sounds not by reading one of your replies......

Some things are urgent ... if this truly could be a fire hazard... if he won't step up & make some calls, then you will need to take charge.. seek out an electrician, ask around for how much they charge...get some estimates...let him give you backlash.. you are doing the responsible thing here.. 



> Yes, I believe he is an alcoholic, although he will never admit that. According to him, he does not have a problem. When he had his heart attack a year ago (this month, the 14th), he was laying in the hospital bed and the nurse was doing his intake information, and asking him all these questions .... do you smoke, how much, do you drink, how much ..... and he was minimizing the facts in his answers. So I chimed in and told the nurse the truth about how much he drinks and smokes, because, they need to know. And even still he was minimizing it. She walked out of the room and he looked at me and, at that point, I very nicely let him have it. See, he lets his empty vodka bottles lay lined up in the basement for some reason, waiting to be thrown in the garbage. In a two-week period from right before Labor Day up until his heart attack, the amount of empty (the big one Litre bottles) went from 5 to 8. I had the pictures on my phone to prove it, and at that point I showed him, and I told him not to lie and not to minimize anything. His response to me was ..... well, it was Labor Day weekend.


Alcoholics minimize.. they don't want to believe they have a problem .. THIS IS THE PROBLEM.. nothing will change with this remaining.. this steals his responsibility, he's addicted to the escape...it's a destructer of families...you can't reason with a drunk.. I've witnessed the worst of alcoholism ...when I was younger from my step Father.. my mothers hands were tied with him.. she basically took care of him.. that was her life... 

Has his drinking gotten progressively worse ? 



> Thinking back, there was not much communication at all between us. There were no discussions of the future, how we wanted to plan for it, how to pay for it, how to save for it.


 So you both just jumped in blindly.. hoping it would all work out.. no plan.. no life goals you or he were pursuing...

It doesn't sound it was EVER GOOD then...not much to build upon..



> He does not ARGUE with me. He does not like it when I am mad at him, so he will retreat, and hope that the issue (whatever it may be, however big or small it may be) will blow over. If I don't bring it up again, he thinks it is resolved. Let me state that I don't like to argue either, I don't think anyone does. But his MO is to just agree with and not discuss. He will stonewall me a lot also if it is something that he does not want to discuss. I think that is where his pride comes in. Sometimes, and he has said, that it was his pride that kept him from doing or not doing something.


You are between a rock & a hard place with this man.. I can understand your wanting to pull your hair out.. We can't change anyone else, he is stuck in this "no discussion, conflict avoidant" dynamic & won't budge to meet you half way...

All you can do , it sounds, is take charge of your own life here.. take charge where you need.. until you decide you can't continue on like this.. who would blame [email protected]# DO you have kids together ?...it sounds money is hard to come by... so leaving or taking care of yourself may not be an option right now... just something to think about..


----------



## Lukedog (Nov 18, 2015)

KillerClown said:


> So for the first ten years of the marriage he was not drinking, physically fit, getting things done around the house and you both had a healthy sex life? Or is it that he has always been the same but you just became unhappy about it in the last ten years?


He has drank ever since I have known him. In the last 10 years it has gotten progressively worse; to the point where you notice how it starts to affect people....memory, cognitive function, thinking and reasoning, ED issues, etc. Sex life was not always the best but it was there. He is not overweight nor ever was. He is quite the opposite....skinny as a rail and no muscle tone.

And I have been very unhappy about a lot of things in our marriage for a lot of years. And I have expressed my unhappiness to him for many years. His MO to just about everything is to bury his head in the sand and wait until I have forgotten about it so I'm not nagging anymore. 

Let me point out also -- you can have a methodical and reasonable discussion with someone who drinks more often than not. I'm not going to initiate a conversation with my spouse about the lack of sex and his ED issue when he's had a few. It's not worth it. Nothing good is going to come of out that conversation if it can even happen.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Lukedog said:


> @deidre......You are right. I don't respect him. The first ten years or so of our marriage were good. It's been the last 8-10 years that have not been good. Because things have gone on for so long, his unwillingness to address the issues, his procrastination over everything, his choosing to soothe himself with alcohol (and other things) instead of "me" and addressing those issues together, *I have lost a lot of respect, faith and trust in him*.


And no wonder! I am amazed you have any left.

Are you open to divorce? Do you have children? Do you have a job?

If you want to stay married, maybe Al Anon would be a good resource.


----------



## Lukedog (Nov 18, 2015)

Betrayed Dad -- are you telling me that I should have options? Or are you stating that my husband should have options in that in time I will become a wayward and have an affair because I am not happy?

I understand I can only change myself. It's hard to do, to get out of that rut, to get out of that cycle, when you live with someone who "drags you down".


----------



## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

Lukedog said:


> Betrayed Dad -- are you telling me that I should have options? Or are you stating that my husband should have options in that in time I will become a wayward and have an affair because I am not happy?
> 
> I understand I can only change myself. It's hard to do, to get out of that rut, to get out of that cycle, when you live with someone who "drags you down".


You should BOTH, ALWAYS have options. I'm not talking about cheating or have beta orbiters. It's about breaking codependency.

I'm talking about not being AFRAID of change. Divorce should NEVER be off the table in any relationship. Do not fear change.

If you accept that, you will both work HARD to maintain relationship. Similar to how you worked hard to get your spouse to propose.

Courtship never ends in a good relationship. How would you treat a boyfriend who stopped courting you? Your husband is no different.


----------



## Lukedog (Nov 18, 2015)

jld said:


> And no wonder! I am amazed you have any left.
> 
> Are you open to divorce? Do you have children? Do you have a job?
> 
> If you want to stay married, maybe Al Anon would be a good resource.


I did go to a few Al-Anon meetings a few years back. I did learn that what I was doing as far as emotionally was detaching -- just to get through every day life. I live it one day at a time. But, I am a person who wants an explanation, a reason, an answer for why he has done the things that he has done. I have asked, but I rarely, if ever, get an answer or an explanation. I usually get an "I don't know".

We have one son...he will be 21 in November. He still lives at home but has a full-time job with medical benefits. It's not the best paying job, but it's enough so that he can make his truck payment, insurance, phone, and put gas in it. He does have very little left for much else.

I have thought about divorce for many years. Really didn't want to do that until son was graduated from high school. I'm open to that.....H is not. I have brought it up to H probably two or three times...maybe not in the best ways.

I do have a full time job with medical benefits, always have. The dilemma I face with my job is that I work in a small law firm (I've been at current employment for 22 years) where all the "bosses" are at retirement age. They are not bringing in any new associates, so I may be faced with unemployment within the next five years. I don't know what to expect at that point, and the prospect of starting over from the beginning with another law firm seems daunting, and really quite frankly, scares the hell out of me. Right now I still need this job with the medical benefits as I still have doctors appointments and medical tests and treatments to go through for breast cancer.

As a side note: I just turned 50 this year. My husband is 55.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Lukedog said:


> I did go to a few Al-Anon meetings a few years back. I did learn that what I was doing as far as emotionally was detaching -- just to get through every day life. I live it one day at a time. But, I am a person who wants an explanation, a reason, an answer for why he has done the things that he has done. I have asked, but I rarely, if ever, get an answer or an explanation. I usually get an "I don't know".
> 
> We have one son...he will be 21 in November. He still lives at home but has a full-time job with medical benefits. It's not the best paying job, but it's enough so that he can make his truck payment, insurance, phone, and put gas in it. He does have very little left for much else.
> 
> ...


I'm really sorry about the breast cancer. 

I would hang onto your job then. I don't mean to be macabre, but your husband's health may not last. It may be easier just to cope in the meantime.


----------



## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

from an admittedly strange point of view, I'm wondering what he is escaping from. He seems to be neglecting himself to death. Which does kind of tie in with the idea of long term depression. Of course low testosterone for 20 years could easily cause that.


----------



## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Lukedog said:


> Would have to figure out how to pay for that first. Because we have not been able to discuss the finances and how to get this stuff taken care of, repairs in our house have fallen by the wayside. This electrical issue is an issue that he knows needs fixed but has done nothing about. Even when he had control of the finances and he knew what was coming in and what was going out ....
> 
> What would happen if I just went ahead and hired the electrician? it would get done that's for sure, but not sure how the bill would get paid. And he would get a little pissed that I went ahead and did it without "consulting" him first. And I would probably hear something to the effect of "that's not how I would have handled it." I heard that a few times before from him, in particular, when my car battery died one night.


If it were me, I would figure out how to pay, give him a deadline, and sort the problem out my way when the deadline had expired. 

The things you list generally look like things lots of couples fight over (alcoholism excluded) and just because you have a different view from him, I don't assume you are right. I think it's more about negotiation.


----------



## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Lukedog said:


> I did go to a few Al-Anon meetings a few years back. I did learn that what I was doing as far as emotionally was detaching -- just to get through every day life. I live it one day at a time. But, I am a person who wants an explanation, a reason, an answer for why he has done the things that he has done. I have asked, but I rarely, if ever, get an answer or an explanation. I usually get an "I don't know".
> 
> We have one son...he will be 21 in November. He still lives at home but has a full-time job with medical benefits. It's not the best paying job, but it's enough so that he can make his truck payment, insurance, phone, and put gas in it. He does have very little left for much else.
> 
> ...


i expect you will be worse off financially in the event of divorce. Is that a good reason to stay married? You have to make that decision.

Side observation....have job, therefore have income, therefore why can you not direct some of that income to the electrician?


----------



## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

BetrayedDad said:


> This his how you fix your beta problem. It's is very simple.
> 
> HAVE OPTIONS.
> 
> ...


I am less ready to just dump someone than betrayed dad, and I feel being single is an option. That aside, I agree with what he is saying. I will never willingly be in a position where I was trapped in a marriage if I really had to leave. Not because I want to leave, but because it keeps both of you on your toes.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I think his alcoholism is the key. If that can be fixed, the rest may get better. If not, I don't see any hope. It can be very difficult to convince an alcoholic to get help, but if he won't, then you are not doing either of you a favor by staying with him.


----------



## KillerClown (Jul 20, 2016)

Lukedog said:


> I did go to a few Al-Anon meetings a few years back. I did learn that what I was doing as far as emotionally was detaching -- just to get through every day life. I live it one day at a time. But, I am a person who wants an explanation, a reason, an answer for why he has done the things that he has done. I have asked, but I rarely, if ever, get an answer or an explanation. I usually get an "I don't know". He gets drunk because being drunk is easier than being sober. There is no other explanation. You did not put a funnel in his mouth and poured vodka down his throat. He got drunk all by himself. You need to stop asking "Why".
> 
> We have one son...he will be 21 in November. He still lives at home but has a full-time job with medical benefits. It's not the best paying job, but it's enough so that he can make his truck payment, insurance, phone, and put gas in it. He does have very little left for much else.
> 
> ...


----------

