# Defining a "normal" attitude



## Mephisto

Apparently I just don't "get it" so I would like to post this to see the ladies takes on it.

Wife and I have been engaged in a long running battle of wills over what is a normal and healthy sex life between couples.

Last night she shows me a post from an online community she is heavily involved in, discussing parenting and babies and everything else in between. The post was from a girl trying to conceive and be-moaning the fact that they had to do "it" and wanting to use a turkey baster instead.

Wife thought this was funny and a normal attitude for women to have when it comes to having sex with their spouses. 

I got pissed at this, very quickly and told her that THAT attitude is a problem in anyone's sex life and maybe she should really examine it to figure out if it was a problem in ours.... I was told that it is normal and that I just don't get it..... strangely enough I really think I do, I have spent a lot of time on here reading about relationships and read plenty of other material about people and their actions/interactions so am not totally clueless.

Anyway, it pissed me off that bad I couldn't sleep so I stayed up and watched a movie, this morning I wake up and come out of the room to be greeted by a "morning grumpy husband." I responded with "Of course that makes me grumpy, it is an unhealthy attitude and it is causing problems." She then informed me again that I don't get it.......

Do I get it, or is she in pixieland with this attitude?


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## livelaughlovenow

Um... for someone who is having issues with concieving sex can become very unintimate, scheduled, and the couple can be required to have sex daily, even multiple times a day to which point either partner can very quickly be driven to not wanting to have sex, I get the baster comment in that situation, and in that situation only, as I have had several friends who have gone thru the trying to concieve issue and it takes the intimacy out of sex.... very quickly... 
That being said, if you and your wife are not having that issue, then no, it doesn't make sense that she shared it with you at all, unless she was trying to make some other point..... you may have to do some digging to find out what it was... 
However, intimacy is important to maintain and critical for both spouses to make an active effort in keeping up... and it takes work, it doesn't just happen, and by that I mean the emotional intimacy, flirting, attention, affection, enthusiasm, anticipation building, etc.


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## Gaia

Ok if this post from another woman was complaining about having to do it.. it might be because ....

1. Since they are trying to conceive.. they have been going at it like jackrabbits and the womans just worn out and wants a break.

2. the woman is just LD to begin with.. so i suppose thats normal for an ld woman to not want to do it that much..

There are ways to increase ones libido naturally though.. and any ld woman can go see a doctor to rule out that it's a medical issue. Is your wife on meds of any sort or anything?


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## SoWhat

Tell her she doesn't have to have sex with you. Someone else will enjoy it. 

I mean... if she doesn't want it, she's not asking for sexual exclusivity; she's tolerating sex and hoping for mutual celibacy. 

I'm being serious. You deserve someone that's attracted to you. 
What would you do if told your wife she wasn't attractive?


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## heartsbeating

I think you were spot on that it's an unhealthy attitude and is causing problems. What is it that she wants you to get? I'm confused by it.


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## Gaia

SoWhat said:


> Tell her she doesn't have to have sex with you. Someone else will enjoy it.
> 
> I mean... if she doesn't want it, she's not asking for sexual exclusivity; she's tolerating sex and hoping for mutual celibacy.
> 
> I'm being serious. You deserve someone that's attracted to you.
> What would you do if told your wife she wasn't attractive?



I disagree with this... this would only cause problems in the marriage and more harm then anything. That and it seems pretty disrespectful to me.


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## SoWhat

It's not disrespectful to implicitly tell someone who loves you that you're not attracted to them? 
That when they promised sexual monogamy to you, you were hoping they were taking vows of chastity? 

I just have a fundamentally different view of relationships, I guess. 
I think mutual attraction and desire for one's partner is a necessary component to a relationship.

When that's gone, it's something different entirely.


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## Gaia

I did not say THAT was not disrespectful.. but what your implying seems to be a tit for tat which isn't helpful either... .. at least not that i can see. Which is why i asked if the wife is on meds or something. There are many things that could be going on here between the OP and his wife. I'm not understanding the... "You just don't get it.." thing either. 

OP.. how often do you two have sex if you don't mind me asking? Is she on BC or anything?


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## SoWhat

I honestly see this as someone saying to his wife, who is 100 lbs overweight: "Look at all these guys on the forum, talking about how disgusting fat women are! Har har har, isn't that rich?!?! EVERYONE thinks that!" 

It's implicitly saying: "I am not attracted to you. You may want me, but it's a one-sided desire. That's normal though!"

Edit: I'm not implying a tit-for-tit. I'm serious: if my wife was not interested in having a sexual relationship with me, it is not a monogamous sexual relationship in any sense of the phrase. If I had wanted to be a priest, I'd have taken vows. If sex is not part of the equation between us, I'll accept that - but not forced celibacy, or feeling demeaned and unwanted.


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## *LittleDeer*

I think it's very healthy and normal to want sex, and is imperative to a successful long term relationship.

Many women love having sex, however sometimes especially with small children around it can be difficult to maintain a good sex life. However much can be done about this. 

Some men and and women are just LD and will never get it, unless they take the time to heighten their sex drive.


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## Gaia

SoWhat said:


> I honestly see this as someone saying to his wife, who is 100 lbs overweight: "Look at all these guys on the forum, talking about how disgusting fat women are! Har har har, isn't that rich?!?! EVERYONE thinks that!"
> 
> It's implicitly saying: "I am not attracted to you. You may want me, but it's a one-sided desire. That's normal though!"


The way i was seeing this as..(Since we don't have much to go on yet) was the wife trying to point out in a not so brilliant way that she is basically not that enthusiastic about sex. Since we haven't gotten a possible WHY from the OP... I can only assume it was her not so brilliant way of saying she is LD. Now her using this woman whose trying to conceive as an example is a bad one if ... op and his wife do NOT do it on a daily basis... but it may be a good one if they do. This would imply.. imo... that perhaps she is wanting a break. Not everyone goes about expressing themselves in a good way. I do agree that it was disrespectful of her and she probably needs to learn how to communicate better.


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## Gaia

SoWhat said:


> Edit: I'm not implying a tit-for-tit. I'm serious: if my wife was not interested in having a sexual relationship with me, it is not a monogamous sexual relationship in any sense of the phrase. If I had wanted to be a priest, I'd have taken vows. If sex is not part of the equation between us, I'll accept that - but not forced celibacy, or feeling demeaned and unwanted.


Not wanting sex as often as your partner is NOT celibacy, it's just LD and HD issue which there are ways to fix that. We don't exactly know if the OP is going without sex completely or just going without it as often as he would like.


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## heartsbeating

Gaia said:


> The way i was seeing this as..(Since we don't have much to go on yet) was the wife trying to point out in a not so brilliant way that she is basically not that enthusiastic about sex. Since we haven't gotten a possible WHY from the OP... I can only assume it was her not so brilliant way of saying she is LD. Now her using this woman whose trying to conceive as an example is a bad one if ... op and his wife do NOT do it on a daily basis... but it may be a good one if they do. This would imply.. imo... that perhaps she is wanting a break. Not everyone goes about expressing themselves in a good way. I do agree that it was disrespectful of her and she probably needs to learn how to communicate better.


I saw it, if anything, that she's finding 'evidence' to support her case for something they're (currently) on a different page about. 

Maybe they both need to abandon position and get back to basics. It's about connection and considering each others needs.


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## Gaia

heartsbeating said:


> I saw it, if anything, that she's finding 'evidence' to support her case for something they're (currently) on a different page about.
> 
> Maybe they both need to abandon position and get back to basics. It's about connection and considering each others needs.


That's true... and she used a woman who was trying to conceive as an example... sooo perhaps it has something to do with that?? Maybe thats the... you just don't get it part? OP are you two trying to conceive?


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## heartsbeating

Mephisto said:


> Anyway, it pissed me off that bad I couldn't sleep so I stayed up and watched a movie, this morning I wake up and come out of the room to be greeted by a "morning grumpy husband." I responded with "Of course that makes me grumpy, it is an unhealthy attitude and it is causing problems." She then informed me again that I don't get it.......


I do understand how you'd feel disrespected and why you were grumpy husband but, when was sex about things that are fun and connecting rather than trying to be right? If she sees a grumpy husband, in her eyes, maybe it's just reinforcing that sex isn't about good times and bonding.

I'm not saying tippy-toe around and continue on with blinkers, no, but how are you going to get on the same page, or at least closer?


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## SoWhat

celibacy OR feeling unwanted and demeaned. 

Having a partner that does not desire you - or desires you so infrequently that you feel unwanted most of the time - is one of the most demeaning things I can imagine. 

Especially when you've promised that person you will not ever have sex again with anyone else - someone else who may actually be attracted to you on a basis you find tolerable. 


But it's not just that which makes me feel so bad for this guy.
It's how she's essentially rubbing it in his face. 

"Look, it's not just me who would rather not have sex with you... it's all women who don't want to have sex with their husbands!"

Again, if we'd flip genders:

"Look, all the guys on here are making fun of the cellulite on their wives legs. How gross is that!!! So I called you 'Cottage Cheese Queen...so what? that's a normal attitude!" 

If she's just LD, that's one thing.
But the blatant insult? I can't chalk that up to poor communication skills.


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## Gaia

Mephisto said:


> Last night she shows me a post from an online community she is heavily involved in, discussing parenting and babies and everything else in between. The post was from a girl trying to conceive and be-moaning the fact that they had to do "it" and wanting to use a turkey baster instead.


The above makes me think it has something to do with babies...


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## Gaia

You know.. it probably wasn't meant as an insult.. it could have been a poor way of saying... "I need a break" As far as one spouse desiring the other less often... that does not mean they are NOT attracted to their hd spouse.. it just means they do not desire that form of intimacy that often. Like I said.. there are ways to fix that and deal with it. If the gender roles were reversed for example... i would be saying the same thing if it was for the same reason. I don't see this reason as her rubbing anything in his face nor do i see it similar to a man making fun of his overweight wife. Those are two different subjects imo. The wife .. according to op.. is on a forum dealing with parenting, babies, ect and she pointed out something to do with a woman trying to conceive. So it could very well be as hearts suggested... there is a communication problem... 

IF it is how your seeing it... then yes i agree with you... that is inappropriate and uncalled for. If she was using that as a reason to NOT have sex or justify NOT having sex... yeah that is insulting and i would agree with you 100%.


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## livelaughlovenow

SoWhat said:


> It's not disrespectful to implicitly tell someone who loves you that you're not attracted to them?
> That when they promised sexual monogamy to you, you were hoping they were taking vows of chastity?
> 
> I just have a fundamentally different view of relationships, I guess.
> I think mutual attraction and desire for one's partner is a necessary component to a relationship.
> 
> When that's gone, it's something different entirely.


the OP doesn't state they are not ever having sex, he says they have an issue over what a healthy sex life is, so my guestimate is they are having a frequency dispute.... can't jump to celebacy conclusions....


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## SoWhat

livelaughlovenow said:


> the OP doesn't state they are not ever having sex, he says they have an issue over what a healthy sex life is, so my guestimate is they are having a frequency dispute.... can't jump to celebacy conclusions....


I know I'm probably jumping to conclusions. LOL, I read the Sex In Marriage forum too much and get accustomed to men and women who've gone years without! 

I've only been with HD women, I suppose - I had lots of exciting unattached stuff in my wild and wicked days, and I've never been turned down in a long-term relationship. 

But even imagining the sting of rejection and the implicit lack of unreciprocated desire is sort of painful. I feel so bad for those men and women, mentioned above, who have to feel like unwanted mutants from the very people they promised to be sexually faithful to. 

So I'm definitely overreacting in this thread, haha!


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## Gaia

SoWhat said:


> I know I'm probably jumping to conclusions. LOL, I read the Sex In Marriage forum too much and get accustomed to men and women who've gone years without!
> 
> I've only been with HD women, I suppose - I had lots of exciting unattached stuff in my wild and wicked days, and I've never been turned down in a long-term relationship.
> 
> But even imagining the sting of rejection and the implicit lack of unreciprocated desire is sort of painful. I feel so bad for those men and women, mentioned above, who have to feel like unwanted mutants from the very people they promised to be sexually faithful to.
> 
> So I'm definitely overreacting in this thread, haha!


I tend to do that if i read the infidelity section ... (Which is why i try to avoid going in there.) So don't feel bad.


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## SoWhat

Ha! Exactly why I don't step into that forum.


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## Mephisto

Thanks for all the replies, the wife and I have a difference of opinion on what a healthy sex life should be, she thinks as long as she is getting her frequency quota filled (very LD, once a month perhaps) then all is fine with the world, me I would go 3-5 times a week, maybe a couple of twice a days, but am left with guilt trips and excuses when I try to increase the frequency, if I even get it twice a month she thinks I have been treated royally and should worship the ground she walks on.....

We have issues in communication, because I am very blunt and to the point, I don't ***** foot when it comes to the crunch, you ask if your butt looks big in something and it does, well that is the answer you will get. I am not from a loving and wishy washy family, and never had things sugar coated for me, so that is my communication style.

She on the other hand cannot accept that anyone else's world view could be correct or in any way be relevant to a situation that she wants to have a stance on. Thus her online forum degenerating into constant slinging matches and *****iness....

As for the question about trying to conceive, we are 12 weeks pregnant with our second at the moment, but the argument about frequency is older than the first born.

I am glad that I am not the only one who found the post insulting, seems I do get it after all.


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## Gaia

How is she when she isn't pregnant? Still very LD?


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## DiZ

Mephisto said:


> Apparently I just don't "get it" so I would like to post this to see the ladies takes on it.
> 
> Wife and I have been engaged in a long running battle of wills over what is a normal and healthy sex life between couples.
> 
> Last night she shows me a post from an online community she is heavily involved in, discussing parenting and babies and everything else in between. The post was from a girl trying to conceive and be-moaning the fact that they had to do "it" and wanting to use a turkey baster instead.
> 
> Wife thought this was funny and a normal attitude for women to have when it comes to having sex with their spouses.
> 
> I got pissed at this, very quickly and told her that THAT attitude is a problem in anyone's sex life and maybe she should really examine it to figure out if it was a problem in ours.... I was told that it is normal and that I just don't get it..... strangely enough I really think I do, I have spent a lot of time on here reading about relationships and read plenty of other material about people and their actions/interactions so am not totally clueless.
> 
> Anyway, it pissed me off that bad I couldn't sleep so I stayed up and watched a movie, this morning I wake up and come out of the room to be greeted by a "morning grumpy husband." I responded with "Of course that makes me grumpy, it is an unhealthy attitude and it is causing problems." She then informed me again that I don't get it.......
> 
> Do I get it, or is she in pixieland with this attitude?


She is the one who does not "get it". This is not what I would call a normal attitude for a woman to have. Sure it was amusing but she is wrong. I can assure you that most women do not have this attitude. If they do then they certainly cannot whine when their husbands look elsewhere for sex.

I will admit that my disinterest in sex was one of the problems in my first marriage and why it did not work.

I remarried and have a healthy outlook on sex. I love and enjoy it. I know it is important to my husband. He told me as soon as he felt it was appropriate that he is very physical. Ha! Like I did not figure it out before he told me. haha anyway...we have sex a lot, I know it is important to him. I have never said no to him.


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## DiZ

Mephisto said:


> Thanks for all the replies, the wife and I have a difference of opinion on what a healthy sex life should be, she thinks as long as she is getting her frequency quota filled (very LD, once a month perhaps) then all is fine with the world, me I would go 3-5 times a week, maybe a couple of twice a days, but am left with guilt trips and excuses when I try to increase the frequency, if I even get it twice a month she thinks I have been treated royally and should worship the ground she walks on.....
> 
> We have issues in communication, because I am very blunt and to the point, I don't ***** foot when it comes to the crunch, you ask if your butt looks big in something and it does, well that is the answer you will get. I am not from a loving and wishy washy family, and never had things sugar coated for me, so that is my communication style.
> 
> She on the other hand cannot accept that anyone else's world view could be correct or in any way be relevant to a situation that she wants to have a stance on. Thus her online forum degenerating into constant slinging matches and *****iness....
> 
> As for the question about trying to conceive, we are 12 weeks pregnant with our second at the moment, but the argument about frequency is older than the first born.
> 
> I am glad that I am not the only one who found the post insulting, seems I do get it after all.


She sounds like a very selfish woman to me.


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## livelaughlovenow

Mephisto said:


> Thanks for all the replies, the wife and I have a difference of opinion on what a healthy sex life should be, she thinks as long as she is getting her frequency quota filled (very LD, once a month perhaps) then all is fine with the world, me I would go 3-5 times a week, maybe a couple of twice a days, but am left with guilt trips and excuses when I try to increase the frequency, if I even get it twice a month she thinks I have been treated royally and should worship the ground she walks on.....
> 
> We have issues in communication, because I am very blunt and to the point, I don't ***** foot when it comes to the crunch, you ask if your butt looks big in something and it does, well that is the answer you will get. I am not from a loving and wishy washy family, and never had things sugar coated for me, so that is my communication style.
> 
> She on the other hand cannot accept that anyone else's world view could be correct or in any way be relevant to a situation that she wants to have a stance on. Thus her online forum degenerating into constant slinging matches and *****iness....
> 
> As for the question about trying to conceive, we are 12 weeks pregnant with our second at the moment, but the argument about frequency is older than the first born.
> 
> I am glad that I am not the only one who found the post insulting, seems I do get it after all.


Ok that makes more sense, sometimes more details help  I would start asking questions, ask her if she thinks about sex, if not, why Tell her to stop reading from other women who don't want it and read from those who do, like on this forum, and that her sexuality is under her control, she can make herself more sexual, she just has to change her mindset.... How old is the oldest child? It seems the theme is when women have children their emotional needs get filled by the children, shifted to the children, instead of staying foucused on the husband. I even learned this in counseling myself, that my marriage still has to be number one priority, and i was able to increase my libido on my own. No drugs, no cream, just thinking about sex more, what it was like in teh good old days, talking about likes and dislikes with my partner... however, at the same time, your attitude may be making things a tad worse, do some reading and you too will see how it takes two to tango, and two to undo the romance/intimacy. Or you could try the cruel crazy methods on here of a 180, and cut her off from attention and threaten divorce or request permission to have your needs fulfilled elsewhere.... but do some research. This is a VERY common problem in marriages, often a cycle a woman goes through when her children are young and seems to outgrow as they age.... I have yet to be able to figure that one out..... (just my own observations from reading and research)


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## Mephisto

I understand that my attitude can be part of the problem, but I refuse to jump through hoops on the pretense that something MAY improve at some point down the track, I am not about to put her on a pedestal and forget about myself, because that is exactly what she wants.

I am a reciprocator, you give to me, I give to you, you laugh with me, I laugh with you. The more she takes away from me, the less I give to her, I know this sounds like tit for tat, but I have had my good nature abused in the past and it hardened me the hell up.

I understand the downward spiral that this will put us in, but I told her that directly when she first started to try to control the relationship with sex, now she wonders why I won't step up and be all lovey dovey towards her. I don't pay for the goods unless I receive them.

I guess in a way that is the 180, but as DiZ says, she is selfish and can't see the impact that her actions an have on her partner or her partnership.


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## Gaia

It's great to see you recognize the problems and you don't put her on that pedestal. Now lets hope she gets her head on straight. Perhaps you should invite her to THESE forums... and maybe suggest mc?


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## EleGirl

livelaughlovenow said:


> Um... for someone who is having issues with concieving sex can become very unintimate, scheduled, and the couple can be required to have sex daily, even multiple times a day to which point either partner can very quickly be driven to not wanting to have sex, I get the baster comment in that situation, and in that situation only, as I have had several friends who have gone thru the trying to concieve issue and it takes the intimacy out of sex.... very quickly...
> That being said, if you and your wife are not having that issue, then no, it doesn't make sense that she shared it with you at all, unless she was trying to make some other point..... you may have to do some digging to find out what it was...
> However, intimacy is important to maintain and critical for both spouses to make an active effort in keeping up... and it takes work, it doesn't just happen, and by that I mean the emotional intimacy, flirting, attention, affection, enthusiasm, anticipation building, etc.


Mephisto....

This is the only instance in which I would understand that comment as well.

Perhaps you can tell your wife that you thought about it and ask her if this is what she was talking about.


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## heartsbeating

Mephisto said:


> I understand the downward spiral that this will put us in, but I told her that directly when she first started to try to control the relationship with sex, now she wonders why I won't step up and be all lovey dovey towards her. I don't pay for the goods unless I receive them.


I know you don't literally mean "pay for the goods" but just as I felt your wife's attitude towards sex was strange, I also find this a bit curious too. 

When did sex become a barter system in your home? When did it become about "getting" rather than sharing in?

When did being "lovey dovey" which translates in my mind as being affectionate, romantic and considerate be something that is just a means to an end? (the end being sex).


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## *LittleDeer*

Mephisto said:


> Thanks for all the replies, the wife and I have a difference of opinion on what a healthy sex life should be, she thinks as long as she is getting her frequency quota filled (very LD, once a month perhaps) then all is fine with the world, me I would go 3-5 times a week, maybe a couple of twice a days, but am left with guilt trips and excuses when I try to increase the frequency, if I even get it twice a month she thinks I have been treated royally and should worship the ground she walks on.....
> 
> We have issues in communication, because I am very blunt and to the point, I don't ***** foot when it comes to the crunch, you ask if your butt looks big in something and it does, well that is the answer you will get. I am not from a loving and wishy washy family, and never had things sugar coated for me, so that is my communication style.
> 
> She on the other hand cannot accept that anyone else's world view could be correct or in any way be relevant to a situation that she wants to have a stance on. Thus her online forum degenerating into constant slinging matches and *****iness....
> 
> As for the question about trying to conceive, we are 12 weeks pregnant with our second at the moment, but the argument about frequency is older than the first born.
> 
> I am glad that I am not the only one who found the post insulting, seems I do get it after all.


It seems to me that you have a dysfunctional relationship, neither one of you budging to meet the other.

If you want your relationship to be different then do the work need to change your self. Look at what you can improve.

You say you are blunt. I take that to mean rude. You are making excuses for poor behaviour. If my boyfriend asks me a question, there are nice ways to answer them. 

Maybe the dynamics need changing? Are you a take charge man, who is fair and kind but not a pushover? It does not sound like it from the description above. There has to be balance or she's either going to think you are an insensitive a hole, or a push over. You don't want to be either.


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## Bambusa

You have different drives, that's obvious. To have such a big difference between them is not healthy for the relationship and bound to be a problem. This doesn't make her drive wrong nor yours. Just different.

Some of what you've said does sound like you think her having an LD is wrong and yours is right?

Some of your comments about her I also found a little bit disrespectful towards her and pot kettle black.


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## Mephisto

heartsbeating said:


> I know you don't literally mean "pay for the goods" but just as I felt your wife's attitude towards sex was strange, I also find this a bit curious too.
> 
> When did sex become a barter system in your home? When did it become about "getting" rather than sharing in?
> 
> When did being "lovey dovey" which translates in my mind as being affectionate, romantic and considerate be something that is just a means to an end? (the end being sex).


As part of a two way give and take, she likes hugs, kisses, cuddles, affection, romance and intimacy to feel loved, and to therefore desire sex, I on the other hand enjoy sex for what it is and it leads me to be free and open with all of that, it worked well until she decided that she needed more so I got less. I am already the HD spouse, so a morning in bed of kissing and cuddling that leads to nothing is a torturous morning and does not end happily. 

I do not ask that she meet me at the top end of the spectrum in regards to frequency, just somewhere in the middle, twice a week I would be more or less content with, but when that is taken off the table, so too are all the small things that build up the desire, a HD without release is not in a happy place. If there is to be no release why would a man torture himself?

I am not rude in the way I put things generally... except when it is fight night then it is a different story. I do not hint at what it is I want, I do not avoid the topics as they arise, I state things straight out, no side story no innuendo. You ask me what is wrong and I will tell you what is eating at me, simple no bullsh!t approach. I don't avoid the pink elephant in the corner of the room....

Maybe some things I say come across as disrespectful, and I will agree, that after seven years and a lot of ups and downs and right fights, I have developed some resentment towards her. I TRY to let it go, I TRY to move ahead with things, and then the same old BS gets dragged out and rehashed again. 

She knows about these forums, she has been on before and went BALLISTIC when people sided with me over some particular issues we had at the time, she hates that I come on here at all. 

We discussed MC, but I am not convinced about the effectiveness of anything we may have locally, more snake oil than anything else around here. I have bought the HNHN books and read them, she refused to look at them, picked out one passage off the internet and decided that it was all a load of BS because they have no idea about our situation. She won't even work through the exercises with me. 

So in a nutshell, I am wrong and just don't get it, she is right and gets it, and nobody else should be allowed to have any input other than her and I, but my input is null and void because I don't get it..... get it?


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## Bambusa

Mephisto said:


> So in a nutshell, I am wrong and just don't get it, she is right and gets it, and nobody else should be allowed to have any input other than her and I, but my input is null and void because I don't get it..... get it?


I don't think either of you are wrong in what is right for you. Maybe it's just not right together or not right, right now.

Have you both read 'Where did my libido go'?


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## Mephisto

Nope, can't say I have ever heard of it. If I suggested it, it would be scoffed at and inadmissable regardless..... I don't get it, she does.... apparently.


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## heartsbeating

Mephisto said:


> So in a nutshell, I am wrong and just don't get it, she is right and gets it, and nobody else should be allowed to have any input other than her and I, but my input is null and void because I don't get it..... get it?


You crazy kids need to let go of this right/wrong business. 

It seems to me you both have resentment and with-holding from one another. Needs get neglected from both sides. 

I completely agree that healthy connection includes sexual intimacy. It's not just about the physical release, it's the sharing and appreciating and loving and bonding that sex can bring. 

Frequency and everything aside, I think the most concerning thing is that you feel she isn't showing signs of working on your marriage together. I wonder if you're meeting her needs? I'd imagine if you both disarm, and were willing and able to consider one another, with time, positive changes could occur. Takes a lot of work and understanding etc. What changes have you started making for yourself (and perhaps inadvertently for your relationship?) - through reading the books/these boards?

How are other areas of your marriage?


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## Mephisto

heartsbeating said:


> You crazy kids need to let go of this right/wrong business.
> 
> It seems to me you both have resentment and with-holding from one another. Needs get neglected from both sides.
> 
> I completely agree that healthy connection includes sexual intimacy. It's not just about the physical release, it's the sharing and appreciating and loving and bonding that sex can bring.
> 
> Frequency and everything aside, I think the most concerning thing is that you feel she isn't showing signs of working on your marriage together. I wonder if you're meeting her needs? I'd imagine if you both disarm, and were willing and able to consider one another, with time, positive changes could occur. Takes a lot of work and understanding etc. What changes have you started making for yourself (and perhaps inadvertently for your relationship?) - through reading the books/these boards?
> 
> How are other areas of your marriage?


Not really a kid, but anyway. When our sex life and consequent arguments are taken out of the equation, we actually get along well. It is just a growing monster that is not being dealt with, building resentment and ill will from both behalfs.

As I said earlier, I slowed down on meeting her needs when she slowed down on meeting mine. She hasn't figured out that upping her game to how it was will get my game back up. 

As it stands, I have reduced my reactions to her negative comments, I have been pointing out times when she is disrespectful instead of leaving it slide, I have been trying to compliment her on the good things she does.

I have also changed my level of activity while home, getting out of the house and focussing on projects around the farm instead of being available for her and just doing what she wants trying to appease her.

Whether or not she will realise any of this, even though she has been told explicitly that THIS is what YOU need to do to repair this, this is how you broke this, this is how to move forward.

Time will tell.


----------



## Veryfaithfulwife

Dear husband, I'm sorry that you feel the need to get the advice of these strangers. I have tried to tell you many times in our relationship that if you upped the way in which you made love to me then you would get it more often. I am not a hole to be drilled, I am a beautiful female to be loved. 

Yes I may have put on a few kg's since we met but is regularly telling me I am fat repulsive, and unattractive, yes in those words people, really going to entice me to give my body to you... only to have it drilled with a jackhammer. 

There is no and never has been any form of intimacy in our relationship as you think 'that sort of stuff is for girls'. I'm sick of banging my head against the brick wall that is your overly sensitive ego. I have asked you '000 of times to touch me in different ways yet you have no desire to learn what a woman enjoys. Like a typical Aussie bloke you think fore play is taping me on the leg or squeezing my nipple till it almost falls off! 

But yep, come on internet forums and insult me and tell half truths to try to get some fighting ammo, even though I have asked you not to. I dont talk about us in my online community as I know what I say will all be one sided and MY view of the situation and the responses can never really help unless they get both sides... like a relationship counselor could do, but you wont go to see one with me will you? You will take advice of random internet people who's experience in the field can never be known, yet you refuse to come and see a professional with me.... Are you afraid tat they will say we are both wrong when you so desire to be right all the time? 

And back to the topic at hand the reason I pointed out my friends post was to show my dear husband that I am not the only woman on the planet who finds sex a chore.


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## AFEH

Mephisto, it sounds to me like you both have whole bucket loads of resentment and passive aggression. The prognosis for your marriage and individual joy and happiness, in fact life itself is seriously bad.

Neither of you have even a little clue of even the basic foundations of a happy, healthy and rewarding marriage and because of that you will never have one. What a waste of two lives that will be! And what a world to bring children into, a world of resentful and passive aggressive parents!

If you are still in love with your wife, ask your wife if she is still in love with you. If you both still love one another than get yourselves onto something like Alpha USA : Find Out More About the Course so at least you both know the foundations of a good marriage even if you’ll never actually practice them in the marriage you are in now.


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## Mephisto

AFEH, Not much passive about the the aggressive right now. Seriously, I don't think she even realises what a two way street is, as it is always about things going her way, the reason she thinks I have an undeniable NEED to be right, is that when I know what it is I am talking about, I don't back down, but when I have no idea I don't make an issue about it.... but of course that doesn't leave an impression that can be held as negative.


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## Mephisto

And dear wife, if you stopped talking long enough to actually listen, and acted on what you heard, you would have a far more responsive husband..... in case you missed it, I put as much effort into pleasing you as you do for me.


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## AFEH

Mephisto said:


> AFEH, Not much passive about the the aggressive right now. Seriously, I don't think she even realises what a two way street is, as it is always about things going her way, the reason she thinks I have an undeniable NEED to be right, is that when I know what it is I am talking about, I don't back down, but when I have no idea I don't make an issue about it.... but of course that doesn't leave an impression that can be held as negative.


You’re both fighting from entrenched positions. Much like you’re standing your ground and not budging an inch while at the some time lobbing hand grenades at each other. You don’t know it, or at least you’re not fully aware of it that you are in trench warfare fighting from your entrenched, exceedingly habitual and dysfunctional positions.

The dynamics between the two of you are absolutely crap.

The two of you, you both need different and better ways of communicating or else nothing is ever going to change. Well, it will change as it will get a whole lot worse!

When a couple are as entrenched as the two of you are, you need outside help. For example you have an entrenched battle over sex going on. You believe you are right, your wife believes she is right. And you are both entrenched in your positions!

What you do in these situations is get outside help, a coach who can get you both out of your entrenched positions and start communicating in loving and healthy ways.

Take a look at the Topics in the course I recommended for you:

Session Topics

1. Building Strong Foundations – This session helps couples to look at their lifestyle and its effect upon their marriage, and to discover more about each other’s needs and desires – particularly on an emotional level.

2. The Art of Communication – Listening is a vital skill for a strong marriage. In this session couples practise communicating their feelings and listening effectively to one another.

3. Resolving Conflict – In this session we look at how couples can increase their intimacy by expressing appreciation to each other, recognising their differences, learning to negotiate disagreements and praying for each other (if they feel comfortable doing so).

4. The Power of Forgiveness – This session addresses the ways we will inevitably have hurt each other and how to resolve these so we don’t create a backlog of anger and resentment. We look at the process of healing through identifying the hurt, saying sorry and forgiving.

5. The Impact of Family – Past and Present – This session focuses on helping couples to recognise how their family background affects the way they relate to each other. They also consider how to build a good and healthy relationship with their parents, in-laws and wider family, and how hurt from childhood can be healed.

6. Good Sex – Sexual intimacy needs to be worked at and developed. It isn’t just the icing on the cake; it’s a vital ingredient of the cake itself. In this session couples are encouraged to talk about their sexual relationship and to recognise where they need to make changes.

7. Love in Action – This session looks at five ways of expressing love – through words, time, touch, presents and actions. Couples discover which expression of love is most important for their partner and how to put this into practice.



I was with my wife for over 40 years. Believe me I know from both joyful and painful experience the truth and wisdom in all of the seven topics.


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## Mephisto

AFEH, I have read a lot of your posts on here and I know that you have some very good wisdom for people like us to learn from.

It is painful to be involved in this, she doesn't seem to want to move forward on anything, the amount of times we have talked and come to an agreement on something, and the next day it is thrown out the window because XYZ is unreal. Always my fault of course.

I am done with the fighting


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## livelaughlovenow

I find it interesting that op doesn't even attempt to deny the thins his wife said.....you two have much bigger problems. You need marriage counseling, I find it also interesting wife says she has asked husband to go, but earlier husband says wife wouldn't consider it......I guess just a good reminder to us all....when giving advice that we really are only getting one side of the story.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## heartsbeating

Mephisto said:


> Not really a kid, but anyway. When our sex life and consequent arguments are taken out of the equation, we actually get along well. It is just a growing monster that is not being dealt with, building resentment and ill will from both behalfs.


Oh don't mind me, "crazy kids" is just something I say from time to time, just being light-hearted. 

Your wife is not only willing to help your marriage but she wants to go to counciling with you. Talking to someone who can see your dynamic and learn about you as individuals and as a couple would most likely be helpful.


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## Mephisto

livelaughlovenow said:


> I find it interesting that op doesn't even attempt to deny the thins his wife said.....you two have much bigger problems. You need marriage counseling, I find it also interesting wife says she has asked husband to go, but earlier husband says wife wouldn't consider it......I guess just a good reminder to us all....when giving advice that we really are only getting one side of the story.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I stated earlier that when she started pulling the sex/control card, I backed off on the affection. As for the sexual technique she describes, well there is vitriol and there is vitriol. Quickest way to defame a man is to attack his manhood and sexual stylings. so not really worthy of coming back on, again it is about her trying to control every minute thing. No mention of the times I have been pushed away when attempting to show affection, because it wasn't what she wanted right then, another control method from her.... always about what she wants, never a two way street. 

In the end you just don't care about the words coming out, because the actions speak louder. Kind of like the fat friend sobbing into their cupcake for the thousandth time about being overweight.

And lastly her paraphrasing things I have said about her weight invokes sympathy and I am the bad man, you think I told her in those words when the subject first popped up. No, I was respectful and asked if there was something she needed to control her weight, as it was part of our pre-relationship discussions, we even bought a home gym and were working out together, she asked for my help as I have thousands of hours of training to have some idea what to do. Every time I suggested doing this or that I was told that it wouldn't work for her, when asked about a healthier diet, she informed me she needed to eat XYZ and couldn't replace it with ABC because she liked the taste or didn't like the texture.

I have expressed concern over her weight and the health implications of her diet choices, a family history of diabetes and a list of risk increasing factors for her, so that makes me an a$$. When we discuss weight in general I have stated that it is disgusting that people let themselves go that far without doing something to control it..... so aka I have called her disgusting in her view. Does she take ownership of any of it, does she do anything serious about it? No, and no. Looks at a fad diet for a week and it is all too hard, takes a supplement for a couple of days and it doesn't magically transform her so she throws it away.

So yeah, you get one side of the story, but even when given another it is distorted.


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## LovesHerMan

Do you two want to be right, or do you want to be happily married?

You will never resolve your problems as long as each of you is concerned with justifying your own position, and loudly proclaiming how the other one will not give in and realize how right you are.

I think the suggestion of marriage counseling is a good one. You need an outside view of your issues, and someone to help you both overcome these entrenched resentments. You both have built walls up to protect yourself, and you will not be open to each other until you can tear them down.


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## Veryfaithfulwife

Mephisto said:


> I stated earlier that when she started pulling the sex/control card, I backed off on the affection. As for the sexual technique she describes, well there is vitriol and there is vitriol. Quickest way to defame a man is to attack his manhood and sexual stylings. so not really worthy of coming back on, again it is about her trying to control every minute thing. No mention of the times I have been pushed away when attempting to show affection, because it wasn't what she wanted right then, another control method from her.... always about what she wants, never a two way street.In the end you just don't care about the words coming out, because the actions speak louder. Kind of like the fat friend sobbing into their cupcake for the thousandth time about being overweight.


Um, no. I have no desire to control things. That is your desire. I just want a happy marriage with a man who is capable of loving me. I have been asking for you to learn how to be a better, more passionate lover for our entire relationship, you have dismissed it because you think I am attacking your manhood, and tried to turn it around that I am the one with the issues in the bedroom. The only issue I have is that you are unwilling to come to the party on this so I have stopped putting out. 




> And lastly her paraphrasing things I have said about her weight invokes sympathy and I am the bad man, you think I told her in those words when the subject first popped up. No, I was respectful and asked if there was something she needed to control her weight, as it was part of our pre-relationship discussions, we even bought a home gym and were working out together, she asked for my help as I have thousands of hours of training to have some idea what to do. Every time I suggested doing this or that I was told that it wouldn't work for her, when asked about a healthier diet, she informed me she needed to eat XYZ and couldn't replace it with ABC because she liked the taste or didn't like the texture.


We worked out together once. I bucked once and you decided I wasnt worth the fight. As for you last line... I'm bewildered. 



> I have expressed concern over her weight and the health implications of her diet choices, a family history of diabetes and a list of risk increasing factors for her, so that makes me an a$$. When we discuss weight in general I have stated that it is disgusting that people let themselves go that far without doing something to control it..... so aka I have called her disgusting in her view. Does she take ownership of any of it, does she do anything serious about it? No, and no. Looks at a fad diet for a week and it is all too hard, takes a supplement for a couple of days and it doesn't magically transform her so she throws it away.


Just as I have expressed concern with the amount of alcohol you consume on a daily basis, yet that gets dismissed as it doesnt suit you to look at yourself, its much easier to try to get me to change to suit you.



> So yeah, you get one side of the story, but even when given another it is distorted.


As this wise AFEH says, we are both being pathetic. When are you going to truly understand that and start working on yourself? Or am I to do all the work and all the changing because you earn all the money? (isnt that a form of control right there?) 

Also dear husband you have to stop letting this woman who hurt you many years ago, before we even thought about meeting, control our relationship. Yes you got hurt, its not nice, never is, we have pretty much all been there. The trick is to learn from it and move on. Not bury yourself with it, put up walls and carry it with you into your subsequent relationships. Until you really let it go you will never be able to love and be loved that way you wan to. With that pain you buried the passion that our relationship needs to thrive. You buried the passion that you tell me you used to have for life, for yourself you need that back, for our children you need that back. Living with a stoney lump of non emotive coal is very very draining.


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## livelaughlovenow

LovesHerMan is right.....you two need to start meeting in the middle, counseling will help because right now you are dead locked in both being right instead of attempting to even see things from the others point of view, and compromising on important issues....and you both need to read His Needs-Her Needs-Our Needs and think about what you want from your marriage and how you are going to meet these very basic across the board needs and put pride aside for goodness sake.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## livelaughlovenow

And for the record I was not taking sides there are actually 3 sides to every story's, how he perceives it, how she percieves it and what actually happened
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JuliaP

wow.....that's all i got!


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## Bambusa

I'll tell you a few things that stand out to me that really give me pause...

Defining a "normal" attitude. This implies to me VERY heavily that you hold that stance that your wife is not normal because her views are not enmeshed with yours. I don't know but to me that smacks of emotionally abusive behavior. That's a criticism that rocks to the very core. 

The comments about trying to control someone with sex. Wouldn't the thinking that you have a right to someone's body, be an issue of control? 

There's definitely problems there. But I have to say, it's your attitude towards it that I find the most unhealthy, based on what you have both written.

Whilst there may be issues from both sides, it does sound like your wife is the one most willing to work on the marriage judging from her 'us/we' statements than your 'she needs to' statements.

That's just my take on it.


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## Bambusa

Veryfaithfulwife said:


> telling me I am fat repulsive, and unattractive, yes in those words people


This doesn't sound very lovey dovey to me.


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## Mephisto

Bambusa said:


> I'll tell you a few things that stand out to me that really give me pause...
> 
> Defining a "normal" attitude. This implies to me VERY heavily that you hold that stance that your wife is not normal because her views are not enmeshed with yours. I don't know but to me that smacks of emotionally abusive behavior. That's a criticism that rocks to the very core.
> 
> The comments about trying to control someone with sex. Wouldn't the thinking that you have a right to someone's body, be an issue of control?
> 
> There's definitely problems there. But I have to say, it's your attitude towards it that I find the most unhealthy, based on what you have both written.
> 
> Whilst there may be issues from both sides, it does sound like your wife is the one most willing to work on the marriage judging from her 'us/we' statements than your 'she needs to' statements.
> 
> That's just my take on it.


I can respect where you are coming from, but is it not possible that when asking a question you need to be direct. Is that attitude normal, whereby sex is something that is a chore instead of a time for fun and games? We have gone so far down a ****ty path that I have forgotten what a responsive partner was like. True, I don't tick off her mental checklist on a daily basis to entice, but nor does she create an environment where sex is even seen as welcome.

Did you train your husband to jump thru flaming hoops, sit up, beg, roll over and play dead just to get some action? Sure, I bet he does most of those tricks of his own volition, but when you were finding your middle ground did you punish him for doing those same things just because you weren't interested right then, or did you meet him in the middle and enjoy having a man who was interested in learning what made you tick?

I WAS WILLING to work with her until she decided that cutting sex back to a blue moon event would work to inspire a lover to take all the time in the world to please her.

At some point in working out a solution, something has to give. When I point out the parts that she has to give on to make it work that makes me a bad guy in this???? She frequently points out what she wants me to do, but because in this forum she uses "we and us" statements it automatically makes her more credible.

Of the dozens of times we have come to an agreement on how to move ahead, nothing ever lasts more than a week, apparently I don't do enough to warrant it worthwhile, even tho I make it a point to fill each point she asks for, every day. But then it is all too much because she doesn't "Feel" that I am into it. Of course that will be refuted, but how do you really work on something solid when it all relies on a whim of the moment.

I am willing to work on us, the only time the marriage councillor was raised was when I had read HNHN and asked her to check it out. On every site I have ever read about marriage councillors, they always say they are more miss than hit, so in our small community I can't see us finding one that would be any help, and I am not willing to waste thousands of dollars and travelling hundreds of miles to something that may or may not be beneficial when we have a perfectly good start point to try to work from and a range of tools to use. Exhaust that avenue before looking to a spin doctor.


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## Mephisto

livelaughlovenow said:


> And for the record I was not taking sides there are actually 3 sides to every story's, how he perceives it, how she percieves it and what actually happened
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Indeed, perception is the key here. What I see and how I see it are different to the way she sees it, I understand that, I don't argue how she sees things, I do argue with her stance on them. She thinks I see things wrongly......


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## DTO

livelaughlovenow said:


> I find it interesting that op doesn't even attempt to deny the thins his wife said.....you two have much bigger problems.


I caught this as well, and it says much. I also caught where Mephisto owned that he is not going to put in more effort than he gets out of her, and that was not disputed by her. My sense is both feel they are compromising significantly but differ on what the end result or what their respective contributions toward that end result should be.

I feel bad for both because it reminds me of the dynamic in my own failed marriage. This (IMO) seems like a good time for them to take a step back and define, from the ground up, what kind of sex life they want / will tolerate and how to achieve it (or whether it can be achieved at all).

These two might find, as I did, that they are not on the same page with respect to where the sex should be. I thought that sex was important to marital happiness; this befuddled my ex, who could not understand why I was unhappy after a month without sex. I was willing to have sex sessions that met both our needs or, if that was too much, to alternate sex sessions that were oriented towards my preferences with those oriented towards hers. My ex refused; sex had to be her way only 100% of the time or she was not interested. 

These two need to get there basic concepts in alignment or this marriage is doomed to mediocrity if not outright failure. He needs to get that her sexual needs are different than his own and need to be learned and met. She needs to get that every time she gets her needs met she needs to be ready to meet his in kind. This is not a requirement for every guy, but it certainly is for Mephisto. And, personally, I see nothing wrong that. Some women (not necessarily here) do feel that they are more important, which is relationship death.


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## Bambusa

In relation to MC's it's been our experience as well that they are hit and miss, but we continued our search until we found one we were happy with. We used our first session with each one as a type of interview session. Our third try we found someone we BOTH absolutely loved. 

No, I don't train my husband, and he doesn't train me. There is open communication about what each of us likes and doesn't like and the other takes that on board wholeheartedly.


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## DTO

Mephisto said:


> Indeed, perception is the key here. What I see and how I see it are different to the way she sees it, I understand that, I don't argue how she sees things, I do argue with her stance on them. She thinks I see things wrongly......


Yup, that's kind of what I was driving at with my previous post. Does it feel like when you try to express a different point of view or have difficulty with a request of hers you are accused of not listening, being callous, etc.?

If so, I would suggest adopting a reflective listening approach, with an added step:

1) Listen intently when she is trying to tell you something.
2) Repeat back what she said in your words and confirm that you captured her meaning correctly
3) The added step: take that opportunity to state how you feel about her take on a situation (agree, disagree, need to think). This way, there is clarity on where you each stand and the root issues are identified.

Mind you, this is no guarantee that issues will be successfully resolved. But, you will ensure that you have heard her correctly and she cannot accuse you of ignoring her needs or not caring. Moreover, you avoid the ill will that comes with spinning your wheels and sniping at each other, which only serves to make it harder to reach some sort of compromise.


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## Veryfaithfulwife

DTO said:


> I caught this as well, and it says much. I also caught where Mephisto owned that he is not going to put in more effort than he gets out of her, and that was not disputed by her. My sense is both feel they are compromising significantly but differ on what the end result or what their respective contributions toward that end result should be.
> 
> I feel bad for both because it reminds me of the dynamic in my own failed marriage. This (IMO) seems like a good time for them to take a step back and define, from the ground up, what kind of sex life they want / will tolerate and how to achieve it (or whether it can be achieved at all).
> 
> These two might find, as I did, that they are not on the same page with respect to where the sex should be. I thought that sex was important to marital happiness; this befuddled my ex, who could not understand why I was unhappy after a month without sex. I was willing to have sex sessions that met both our needs or, if that was too much, to alternate sex sessions that were oriented towards my preferences with those oriented towards hers. My ex refused; sex had to be her way only 100% of the time or she was not interested.
> 
> These two need to get there basic concepts in alignment or this marriage is doomed to mediocrity if not outright failure. He needs to get that her sexual needs are different than his own and need to be learned and met. She needs to get that every time she gets her needs met she needs to be ready to meet his in kind. This is not a requirement for every guy, but it certainly is for Mephisto. And, personally, I see nothing wrong that. Some women (not necessarily here) do feel that they are more important, which is relationship death.


DTO, I have been asking from the very beginning for my needs to be met in the bedroom. My dh is so bloody stubborn that he flat out refuses to even close his eye's while he kisses me. Silly request maybe, but to me a kiss should be felt, not watched. I feel closing the eyes allows you to experience the full sense of lips on lips and you have a better chance of being consumed by the moment leading to further passion, but dh is always so on guard and afraid that he might get hurt that he cannot even give me this simple request. 

I also have no desire to be put on a pedestal by my husband. I work hard to provide him with a warm and welcoming home and I do my darnedest to raise our 1 soon to be 2 children. Dh does work off shore and is away for a month at a time, I hold up my end of the bargain by keeping everything running smoothly and dealing with any crisis that come up in his absence. I'm not a princess style, high maintenance wifezilla. I am just sick to death of having bad sex and then being punished for daring to ask for a better quality of intimacy. One thing he said a long time ago when this problem was first occurring was that in his mind the quantity of sex was far more important than the quality of the sex. I cannot and will not ever agree to this. No way, no how! While I am all up for the odd quickie, that was all our sex life had become. I do have sex with my husband, not as often as he would like no but I do put out and have our entire marriage, thing is I have never experienced him reciprocating with a night of passion to satisfy my desires. Romance is laughed at and intimacy is avoided at all cost. 

Whats a girl to do?


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## Bambusa

If he likes to keep his eyes open and you don't does it really matter?


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## Veryfaithfulwife

Bambusa said:


> If he likes to keep his eyes open and you don't does it really matter?


To me, yes it does, and when it is such a simple thing for him to do to help us improve our sex life, I don't understand why he wouldn't do it, or at least try it out.


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## Mephisto

Bambusa said:


> In relation to MC's it's been our experience as well that they are hit and miss, but we continued our search until we found one we were happy with. We used our first session with each one as a type of interview session. Our third try we found someone we BOTH absolutely loved.
> 
> No, I don't train my husband, and he doesn't train me. *There is open communication about what each of us likes and doesn't like and the other takes that on board wholeheartedly.*


Here is the key difference.....


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## Bambusa

Is him keeping his eyes open a problem for you for any other reason than you think that's how he should feel a kiss better?


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## Veryfaithfulwife

Nope. It is well known that a kiss will be more passionate if both have their eyes closed and are only using the sense of touch to experience the kiss. 

Out of my entire post I am wondering why you are focusing on this one little thing? I am using it as an example of how unwilling he is to make changes for the betterment of our mutual happiness. He thinks I am trying to control him. I'm trying to show him another way to experience something as simple as a kiss.


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## Veryfaithfulwife

Mephisto said:


> Here is the key difference.....



Yep. So why are you still repeating actions that got you a bad response the first time when I have openly communicated my dislike for such actions?


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## Mephisto

NO romance? seriously?

Let me see what constitutes for romance...

5 star dining at your requested restaurant, 5 star hotel room and a night out. Followed by an "I'm tired it is my night off"

Fresh flowers, irregularly, but not rarely.

There USED TO BE lots of walking together, in some very nice areas.

Week-long jaunts in foreign cities.

Frequent dining out when it is available.

Day spa packages.

but nah, no such thing as romance here....


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## heartsbeating

Have you two lined up an appointment with a councilor yet?

Maybe that should now be a priority if you're both willing to give it a try.


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## Veryfaithfulwife

heartsbeating said:


> Have you two lined up an appointment with a councilor yet?
> 
> Maybe that should now be a priority if you're both willing to give it a try.


Ya, instead of this silly forum war!


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## *LittleDeer*

Mephisto you have an opportunity to turn your marriage around for the better, why not be a man and take the lead?

Go to counselling, with an open mind, try and give your wife what she needs with out being a doormat and you might just find you have lead your marriage into something great.


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## SoWhat

Do you think quantity would increase with quality? 

If so - and you're being sincere - then Mephisto should have a clear goal: be the best lover he can be. If better sex leads to more sex, I don't know why anyone wouldn't go for better sex. 

However, if you think quality > quantity AND you simply don't desire any quantity, then be honest about that part too. 

One thing about not having sex with your partner is that it conveys a message of "I am not attracted to you." That's a rough thing to hear.

There has been some excellent advice in the last 2 pages. Please read over that. Both of you need to drop the resentment and the combativeness ASAP.


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## Tall Average Guy

Veryfaithfulwife said:


> Nope. It is well known that a kiss will be more passionate if both have their eyes closed and are only using the sense of touch to experience the kiss.


Well known to who?



> Out of my entire post I am wondering why you are focusing on this one little thing? I am using it as an example of how unwilling he is to make changes for the betterment of our mutual happiness. He thinks I am trying to control him. I'm trying to show him another way to experience something as simple as a kiss.


This example shows real issues on both side. Yes, it is a small thing that he could do to make it better for you. I would encourage him to do this from time to time as a gesture to you.

But it is also a small thing that shows you telling him what is the right way to do things. Perhaps he is more visual, so he gets heightened enjoyment with also watching you when he kisses you? What if he demanded that you open your eyes to better enjoy his kisses? I understand you have what works for you, but yours is not the universal experience. You are trying to control your husband, and I suspect he is rejecting that.


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## DTO

Veryfaithfulwife said:


> DTO, I have been asking from the very beginning for my needs to be met in the bedroom. My dh is so bloody stubborn that he flat out refuses to even close his eye's while he kisses me. Silly request maybe, but to me a kiss should be felt, not watched. I feel closing the eyes allows you to experience the full sense of lips on lips and you have a better chance of being consumed by the moment leading to further passion, but dh is always so on guard and afraid that he might get hurt that he cannot even give me this simple request.
> 
> I also have no desire to be put on a pedestal by my husband. I work hard to provide him with a warm and welcoming home and I do my darnedest to raise our 1 soon to be 2 children. Dh does work off shore and is away for a month at a time, I hold up my end of the bargain by keeping everything running smoothly and dealing with any crisis that come up in his absence. I'm not a princess style, high maintenance wifezilla. I am just sick to death of having bad sex and then being punished for daring to ask for a better quality of intimacy. One thing he said a long time ago when this problem was first occurring was that in his mind the quantity of sex was far more important than the quality of the sex. I cannot and will not ever agree to this. No way, no how! While I am all up for the odd quickie, that was all our sex life had become. I do have sex with my husband, not as often as he would like no but I do put out and have our entire marriage, thing is I have never experienced him reciprocating with a night of passion to satisfy my desires. Romance is laughed at and intimacy is avoided at all cost.
> 
> Whats a girl to do?


I think the root of this is that you both have to accept that your individual preferences are equally valid and strive to equally benefit from sex. To get more of what you want you have to give him more of what he wants.

Now for some specifics:

Saying "I hold up my end of the bargain by keeping everything running smoothly and dealing with any crisis that come up in his absence" reflects poorly on you. This says you see sex as a bonus - his needs ultimately are his problem. The reality that frequency is low in deference to you, and you still insist on a "you centered" experience solidifies this perception.

Also, making that statement is unfair to him and diminishes his contribution to the family. Working offshore for a month at a stretch probably means he works 12 hour days during that month. He could counter that you get to sleep in a warm cozy home, without having to worry about bills while he's in a dorm for a month at a time having to keep himself going and provide for you and the children. If you don't think bearing responsibility for the bills being paid every month is a heavy burden, try it some time. He could easily say "you would not have this house to maintain if I did not bust my butt offshore for a month at a time - you need to be more appreciative".

By saying you will accept only occassional quickies, you are severely limiting your opportunities for sex. You guys already cannot have sex for half the year because he works offshore. No doubt you both are tired when he is back in town and he needs to rest so he can do his next month's stint. Then I'm sure he wants to do stuff as a family (non-sexual). Ultimately, his time with his family is limited and you seem to insist that sexual encounters be oriented toiwards your needs. In this scenario, when does HE get to be the priority?

You say the sexual frequency has not been what he would like. Has this been a constant throughout the marriage or a more recent development as you have become increasingly dissatisfied with your sex life? Would you be willing to have more sex the way your H wants if he has more sex the way you want (BTW, your H thinks the answer to this question is "no")? Or, are you a fairly LD person who expects him to adjust to you?

Remember that when you say you insist on a better quality of sex, you mean that you insist on WHAT YOU PERCEIVE TO BE a better quality of sex. Treating it like an objective "right vs. wrong" type of thing ignores this subjectivity. He has already told you that his perception of quality differs from yours. Do you acknowledge his perceptions and offer, say, a 50 / 50 split?

You say that you do not expect to be put on a pedestal. But, that is not entirely accurate. You seem to expect that your sexual needs be pre-eminent and that his satisfaction come within the bounds of what you accept sexually. I don't see a willingness to have his needs come first on a regular basis. That is precisely what being put on a pedestal is, and you're doing it.

So, what would I recommend you do? Guarantee him more sex the way he wants if you get more the way you want. Surprise him (assuming he hasn't read this) by saying something like "H, if you love me up and romance me for a night when you come into town, I will knock your socks of with a couple of righteous BJs before you have to leave again", and follow through with it. I can't imagine he would refuse. I acknowledge this means you may put more ongoing effort into his sexual needs than you thought. But, there's nothing wrong with that; marriage should be about you both getting more by investing in each other, not about one of you getting more because the other gets less.

If you will not implement my suggestion (or some variation thereof), then your best bet is to be upfront with your H. Simply acknowledge that you have little interest in having sex his way and that either he needs to have sex your way or get used to low levels of sex. Don't smooth it over by saying that the sexual problems are his fault if you know that there are no circumstances under which you would have sex the way he wants. He will respect you more for being honest than if you tried to blameshift or avoid the issue.

Best of luck to you both.


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## DTO

Veryfaithfulwife said:


> To me, yes it does, and when it is such a simple thing for him to do to help us improve our sex life, I don't understand why he wouldn't do it, or at least try it out.


My guess? He won't like it (i.e. does not see it as improvement), it will be all for your benefit, and he feels that if he asks you to do something strictly for his benefit you will refuse.


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## DTO

Veryfaithfulwife said:


> Nope. It is well known that a kiss will be more passionate if both have their eyes closed and are only using the sense of touch to experience the kiss.
> 
> Out of my entire post I am wondering why you are focusing on this one little thing? I am using it as an example of how unwilling he is to make changes for the betterment of our mutual happiness. He thinks I am trying to control him. I'm trying to show him another way to experience something as simple as a kiss.


It's drawing attention because it is a convenient example of how you take two personal perceptions (that it is an insignificant change and that it would be an improvement in the quality of sex) and turn them into objective truths. He might actually prefer eyes open, but your argument does not even acknowledge this, much less plan to accomodate it.

Put differently, your argument is "if he would do ABC - no big deal really - then we both would be happier". Why do you not instead say "I understand that ABC might be a big deal for him, so if he were to do it for me then I would be happy to do XYZ for him"?

Ultimately, what you need to know is that many if most guys don't see sex you do, which is pretty much a 100% romantic extension of the emotional closeness aspect of the marriage. While guys want to be with women who love them and not just a random lay, the sex in the relationship exists as a source of pleasure in itself, separate from the emotional connection. If you treat sex as "well we are close and connecting so you should be happy" and ignore his need to "get off" so to speak, Mephisto will be unhappy and the relationship will suffer.

You might at this point wish you were with a man who was LD for sex or at least was not interested in the physical pleasure aspect of it. The reality is you are married to Mephisto, who says he will meet you halfway regarding sex (and I believe he is sincere); he merely wants equality, not supremacy. You also have lots of advice here that basically suggests that you indeed meet him halfway and do just as much for him sexually as he does for you.

At this point, there are only two alternatives. You are either willing to meet him halfway (and agree to put forth the necessary effort) or you are not. If the lack of sexual connection is really the issue, then both of you putting more effort into each other simultaneously should be acceptable to you. If you are unwilling to meet him halfway (and I'm assuming he is not into anything like S&M or threesomes) then that unwillingness is the problem and not his sexual preferences. That unwillingness to rate him equal needs to be resolved before it eats away at the other aspects of your marriage; your willingness to rate him equal needs to extend to other issues such as where to live, where to work, how to raise the kids, etc.


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## SimplyAmorous

I feel DTO has some really good insights...from where a man is coming from... Here is something the wife said that stood out for me ..... 



Veryfaithfulwife said:


> Also dear husband you have to stop letting this woman who hurt you many years ago, before we even thought about meeting, control our relationship. Yes you got hurt, its not nice, never is, we have pretty much all been there. The trick is to learn from it and move on. Not bury yourself with it, put up walls and carry it with you into your subsequent relationships. Until you really let it go you will never be able to love and be loved that way you want to. With that pain you buried the passion that our relationship needs to thrive. You buried the passion that you tell me you used to have for life, for yourself you need that back, for our children you need that back. Living with a stoney lump of non emotive coal is very very draining.


What you say here VeryFaithfulWife is very true...>> with the pain, he likely did bury the Passion... and this is no good. 

I don't think people realize they do this.. but it is very very common ...people will do anything generally to flee the excrusiating emotions (like shame, grief, fear, despair, disappointment, & sadness)... they so often lean into NUMBING to take the edge off vulnerability, pain & discomfort... various forms of addiction (I noticed drinking mentioned here) can be described as chronically & compulsively *numbing*- to take the edge off of our feelings...we don't want to face, deal with. 

There is no such thing as *Selective emotional numbing*....so when we numb the dark, we numb the light.  We can't make a list of all the bad emotions and say "I want to numb these" & make a list of the good emotions and say "I'm going to fully engage in these"...it just doesn't work this way. 

Nice if it did, but it's so much more complicated. By learning to lean into the discomfort of vulnerability -this teaches us how to live with joy, gratitude and grace. A good marraige counselor could get you there... opening up like this. 


I read this in a book called "Emotional Freedom"......I quote ...



> "I want to be penetratable to emotions. I have no desire to be calloused, numb or hermetically sealed to give the frightened part of me the illusion I'm safer. This would be an outright deception, crippling my intuition, eclipsing my romance with life. Of course you don't want to get overloaded. But feeling less isn't the answer; Building a solid core and learning to protect your emotional accessibility are.


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## ocotillo

I can't add anything to what SA has said, but since it was made by a third party on another forum, I will comment on the 'Turkey Baster' comparison.

I understand that sex can become monotonous and tiresome when a couple has a calendar above the headboard and a thermometer on the nightstand. The comment would still have been a deal breaker for me.


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## dallasapple

I get the baster comment but I think its sad we get to that point..its funny and "true" but ....we should strive to get away from that ..(and that takes TWO people)..

Sex is for MORE than procreation ..

Dallas


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## ocotillo

dallasapple said:


> I get the baster comment but I think its sad we get to that point..its funny and "true" but ....we should strive to get away from that ..(and that takes TWO people)..


The OP and his wife appear to have gotten themselves in a bad place, but the comment actually originated with a third party on another forum who, besides the fact that she was trying to conceive, we don't know anything about. 

I agree with you that it takes TWO people to "get away" from that, but it really only takes one person to "go there" because it only takes one person to open their mouth and make a comment they can never take back. 

And in that regard, there's things you simply don't say to or about your spouse no matter how humorous or "true" they may be to you or your demographic group.


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## DTO

_Originally Posted by Veryfaithfulwife 
Also dear husband you have to stop letting this woman who hurt you many years ago, before we even thought about meeting, control our relationship. Yes you got hurt, its not nice, never is, we have pretty much all been there. The trick is to learn from it and move on. Not bury yourself with it, put up walls and carry it with you into your subsequent relationships. Until you really let it go you will never be able to love and be loved that way you want to. With that pain you buried the passion that our relationship needs to thrive. You buried the passion that you tell me you used to have for life, for yourself you need that back, for our children you need that back. Living with a stoney lump of non emotive coal is very very draining. _

I understand the point that Veryfaithful is trying to make - Mephisto was with another lady and (it is perceived) they had the relationship dynamic Veryfaithful wants to have. The problem is, such a statement makes two shaky assumptions:

1) That the relationship between Mephisto and this previous lady was actually as envisioned by Veryfaithful. I would ask her how she knows the details if she did not even know Mephisto at that time. What stands out at me is that Veryfaithful seems to be taking a controversial stand. She is going beyond asking for common courtesy to asking that her sensibilities take precedence over Mephisto (everyone knows kissing is better with the eyes closed, she will never prioritize sexual frequency). And then, this quote suggests she feels entitled (he does not have a good reason to deny what she seeks).

2) That Mephisto has an ax to grind and he's taking it out on Veryfaithful. Mephisto simply could have learned about what he likes and dislikes from experience and resolved to be different. She seems to be saying "he did XYZ for this other woman and got burned, now he's taking it out on me" whereas Mephisto could simply be saying "I felt bad about myself doing XYZ and I am going to strive for more balance in my next relationship".

I think I picked up something about Mephisto thinking he was too much of a Nice Guy earlier in this thread (but I could be wrong) and is now making a change for himself. This seems to echo an earlier thread where the consensus was man #2 could not expect the woman to have sex with him right away just because she had slept with guy earlier in her life on the first date, because she might have matured since that time.


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## Veryfaithfulwife

> I understand the point that Veryfaithful is trying to make - Mephisto was with another lady and (it is perceived) they had the relationship dynamic Veryfaithful wants to have. The problem is, such a statement makes two shaky assumptions:
> 
> 1) That the relationship between Mephisto and this previous lady was actually as envisioned by Veryfaithful. I would ask her how she knows the details if she did not even know Mephisto at that time. What stands out at me is that Veryfaithful seems to be taking a controversial stand. She is going beyond asking for common courtesy to asking that her sensibilities take precedence over Mephisto (everyone knows kissing is better with the eyes closed, she will never prioritize sexual frequency). And then, this quote suggests she feels entitled (he does not have a good reason to deny what she seeks).


I dont presume to know what went on in this previous relationship. I do know that him burying his feelings is only doing himself a disservice and I would like for him to see this for himself. He has asked as much of me in regards to change as I have of him. I dont see me asking him to close his eyes while kissing me as the crime it is being made out to be. Do we not all ask for things from out partners to make our lives better? It has to be a 2 way street in my book. 

I find it highly amusing that as usually happens on internet forums parts of posts are picked apart and others are ignored to suit the respondents own argument. A few of you have my ear in here, but I also find many are just driveling away to join in the fun.


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## Veryfaithfulwife

SimplyAmorous said:


> I feel DTO has some really good insights...from where a man is coming from... Here is something the wife said that stood out for me .....
> 
> 
> 
> What you say here VeryFaithfulWife is very true...>> with the pain, he likely did bury the Passion... and this is no good.
> 
> I don't think people realize they do this.. but it is very very common ...people will do anything generally to flee the excrusiating emotions (like shame, grief, fear, despair, disappointment, & sadness)... they so often lean into NUMBING to take the edge off vulnerability, pain & discomfort... various forms of addiction (I noticed drinking mentioned here) can be described as chronically & compulsively *numbing*- to take the edge off of our feelings...we don't want to face, deal with.
> 
> There is no such thing as *Selective emotional numbing*....so when we numb the dark, we numb the light.  We can't make a list of all the bad emotions and say "I want to numb these" & make a list of the good emotions and say "I'm going to fully engage in these"...it just doesn't work this way.
> 
> Nice if it did, but it's so much more complicated. By learning to lean into the discomfort of vulnerability -this teaches us how to live with joy, gratitude and grace. A good marraige counselor could get you there... opening up like this.
> 
> 
> I read this in a book called "Emotional Freedom"......I quote ...



Thank you. I know my husband has much respect for you on this forum and I think your words say exactly what I want to say but cannot find the right words. We all have things in our pasts that hurt us, I was lucky enough to have a supportive family and friend base around me to process my issues, unfortunately dh didnt have that and as much as my family and friends love him and support him they can only do as much as he will allow IYKWIM.


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## SimplyAmorous

Veryfaithfulwife said:


> Thank you. I know my husband has much respect for you on this forum and I think your words say exactly what I want to say but cannot find the right words. We all have things in our pasts that hurt us, I was lucky enough to have a supportive family and friend base around me to process my issues, *unfortunately dh didnt have that *and as much as my family and friends love him and support him they can only do as much as he will allow IYKWIM.


Let me speak from a perspective that understands your husband for a moment... I had a similar upbringing as him (I think), his could have been a ton worse I am sure.... My mother took off with a drunk, I hated my Step Mother, my dad was distant enough doing his own thing, she used to leave notes on the fridge to not touch certain foods, COLD, Callous, she wanted my dad to herself, didn't want to raise me, she gave up her own kids. 

I did have a Grandmother next door that was a solace to me and my friends & their family were my haven in my teen yrs.. I tried to run away once. Then I met my husband....I can't say I treated him "right" ..... but he put up with me anyway...loved me through it, seemed to understand my dysfunuction wasn't aimed at him but inner stuff I had to deal with, anger over my upbringing...I used to write on my bedroom wall over & over again ...."I hate ______, I hate ______, I hate ________" and have to erase it afterwards, if I did anything out of line, I would be grounded a month at a time, no friends, no phone....life was not a bowl of cherries. I had to be strong but I had clear "chips on my shoulder", and likely some abandonedment issues -since my Mother took off. 

On my 18th Birthday... he brought me home from a date (funny how I forget this)--because I have deeply forgiven..... my Step Mom had my entire bedroom out on the porch & told me when I left I wasn't to come back. My husband wanted to rescue me and I lived in someone's back yard in a camper before HIS parents took me in. I felt cheated of my teen years...of a loving family. I wanted nothing more than to create my own family & give them what I didn't have. -- which is what we have done. 

So in this way, a spouse who is more "stable" -who was given that love & stability in their growing up years... I hope you can understand their is a tremendous amount of grief to wade through, a process to let go of the past... and not allow it to define us..... (I had to do this...my husband was a gem in dealing with me, many would have dumped me given how I sometimes treated him in the beginning....there was some real testing to see what he was MADE OF and his loyalties to me...to he honest, it was HIS unconditional love for me that won me over -truly)...He showed ME how to love again...and to love myself. 

And just like your husband ....maybe it is the upbringing...I am also one "straight shooter"...I have learned much grace over the years, been a blessing to us all.... We can all change & grow. 

I don't know how many yrs you have been together, or been married Veryfaithfulwife (you've chosen a good name - I trust that speaks how you feel ) but I just want to say..it's never too late to get it right. Perseverance and a determination to please each other, reigning in the more hurtful words (learning some of that grace) and practicing *Validation* towards each other... Oh what a difference it can make... A heartful *willingness* is all you need to start today.... .... http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/39565-validating-your-spouse.html



> *ocotillo said*: The comment would still have been a deal breaker for me.


 I think we ALL speak out of our a** when we are upset, feel misunderstood, even holding some resentment..... I have to disagree words should be set so high as to never be able to be forgiven in life. My lord, where would we all [email protected]#$%^&* I personally have always felt ACTIONS are more damaging than words spoken in a weak moment. 

I'd say on both sides of your marraige... VeryFaithful and Mephisto.....you've both said some deeply hurtful things to each other ....so you are even. Would you agree? 

What you both want out of this marriage--do you still LOVE each other? This is way beyond the most important... Where would any of us be without forgiveness. My husband would have had to ditch me ages ago if this were true. I once told him his penis was "homely". Yeah ... pretty assinine, wasn't it. And when we was going through infertility (for near 7 yrs straight), I was dumb enough to let him know ...all I cared about was his sperm... be damned with his pleasure...( I didn't say that... but I acted that way... It hurt him very much ..and he slowly started to built resentment towards me)..... UNlike your husband -who speaks his mind (at least you fight)....mine silently suffered.... take it from me... I wouldn't call this any better. Conflict is the beginning of Resolving --IF it is handled well. I think this is an excellent article -the type of stuff you would learn in Marriage counseling to deal with such conflict..
Imagine Hope Counseling Group - Our Resources - PLANTING THE SEED OF INTERDEPENDENCE

Owning our own flaws and hurtful words.... being willing to realize the impact on the other.... this IS your answer...what to strive for.










Being sexually wanted by your spouse is tremendously important, sounds like even YOU want this VeryFaithful -but his comments about weight -have deeply hurt you..... as his feeling you don't desire him has deeply hurt him. I can fully understand your wanting more passionate love making though, come on Mephisto... what are you [email protected]#$%

Never underestimate the power of Romance to a woman. 

I'd say LOVE can conquer all of this...if you both have a heart to do for the other, come half way.....lean to overcoming Resentment ...Many great links to digest in this thread... http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-ma...l-etc-how-robs-us-intimacy-we-crave-most.html

Take the Resentment test.... 1st line.. see where you both are...... you have another baby on the way.... what a blessing in life......you want to get this right, have a new beginning...for your future and theirs...


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## Mephisto

Yet another reason to love your work SA!


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## Tall Average Guy

Veryfaithfulwife said:


> I find it highly amusing that as usually happens on internet forums parts of posts are picked apart and others are ignored to suit the respondents own argument. A few of you have my ear in here, but I also find many are just driveling away to join in the fun.


Unfortunately, you seem to make the same mistake you made previously. You believe it is no big deal for your husband to make this change. What is the basis for this? It appears to be you projecting your values on your husband. You value him closing his eyes when you kiss, so it must be the "right way" to kiss, and should not be a big change. You leave no room for the idea that it could be a very big deal for him and he in fact wants you to open your eyes when you kiss him. 

Part of compromise is recognizing that the other person is giving up something for you. If you don't provide that recognition, they are less likely to compromise, as they don't feel appreciated. I can only go by what you write, but your posts indicate that you would not appreciate his doing this, because you leave no room for the idea that he is actually giving something up to please you. If this comes out in your conversations (and I suspect it does from time to time), then it is no surprise that he balks at your requests.


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## lamaga

Good God, I bailed on page 4. Such unpleasant reading. MC now, or maybe just split up. There's so much bile here, I don't know how you two live in the same home.


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## Gaia

lamaga said:


> Good God, I bailed on page 4. Such unpleasant reading. MC now, or maybe just split up. There's so much bile here, I don't know how you two live in the same home.


:iagree: MC for sure... if you can't afford it and still WANT to stay together.. both of you will have to set aside your pride and make compromises to work on the relationship. If your unable to do that.. then perhaps leaving would be the best choice.


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## Mephisto

I am afraid we both speak the truth from our own perspectives. In a lot of ways I can see where my wife is coming from, but none of them trump the way I see things. 

I have given everything in the past only to have it thrown back and decided F$%& this, if a woman really wants to be with me then she will show it the way I showed it previously. Is this detrimental to my relationship?.... Perhaps. Is this self preservation? Absolutely. Is it wrong?..... Entirely subjective.

My wife and I can make a fantastic team when we are on the up swing, we are best mates, but we have a volatile relationship,both of us see validity in our arguments, because we see them through our own eyes, I do not understand what it is to live as an emotionally open person, I am honest to a fault, but emotions never factored into decisions I have made. I am an analytical/maths/science type geek and therefore weigh up options when making decisions. She is more airy/artistic, but able to be practical......sometimes.

The way I see it is that if ABC is happening then XYZ will follow. As far as my reading on here confirms, that is only acceptable for women, which in an age of equality I don't really understand.... perhaps someone else can enlighten me on that one.

Angel5112, you talk of bluntness being akin to rudeness, I beg to differ, it is not rude to answer a question with a direct statement that is truthful, aka, "honey, does this dress make my ass look big?' answered with,
"honey, the size of your butt has nothing to do with the dress" compared to "you have to be ****ting me woman, a family pack of twinkies a day and 3 helpings of dinner make your a$$ look big, the dress just accentuates the problem." The first, while not being supportive, is not rude or attacking either, it may be slightly passive aggressive, but if you can tell me any other way to have that conversation that actually WORKS, I am all ears. The second is just knucklehead terrritory.

I may not have much empathy, but I am not a total ass. Other than that, you have valid points.

As an update, Wife and I had a kid free evening and got to sit down and actually talk about our issues, using some of what was written on here to get us going and with the exercises in HNHN we actually made a little headway. I hope that these agreements can be stuck to, and I hope that we can move forward from here, I am not sure where it will lead, but, hey, anywhere is better than where we were.


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## SimplyAmorous

> I do not understand what it is to live as an emotionally open person, I am honest to a fault, but emotions never factored into decisions I have made. I am an analytical/maths/science type geek and therefore weigh up options when making decisions. She is more airy/artistic, but able to be practical......sometimes.


Your wife is clearly a "*FEELING*" in temperment (the emotional) and you are a "*THINKING*" (rational) -maybe you are both at extremes in this, making the divide even more so. I am caught in the middle of these 2 when I take Temperment Tests. 

Have you ever taken any of these tests to see what you are ? This helps us understand WHY we think & feel the way we do, what our strengths are , and our weaknesses, so we can be aware of these things and work on them. And our spouses get a clearer idea to the WHY's behind our consistent behavior. 

Me & my husband are utter opposites in some things, I can not for the life of me understand a passive person...who when upset, can sit there and say nothing. I would have to have a gun to my head, loose my job or have my life in danger to not open my mouth. So our personalites & the why's can be WAYYYY off in marraige. But to come to learn of the why 's behind our differences, can help us get along. IN our marraige, my husbands strenghts are often MY weaknesses, and his weaknesses are MY strenghts, if you can get a hande on that... it can help getting along ...to work together...

I am going to take a stab at Guessing what Mephisto is.... I am assuming he is an Extrovert -cause he hardly seems passive & that straight Shooting I can relate too - he must have many judgements in his head (me too)... My guess is this>> an ESTJ , or an ENTJ ..... Haven't heard enough about VeryFaithful to take that guess, other than that 3rd Letter is going to be an F for feeling. 

Just in case I got it right >> 

Personality page for ENTJ Personal Growth ........................... ESTJ Personal Growth


Will give an outline of all of this:


> What does Success mean to an ____.
> Allowing Your _____ Strengths to Flourish
> Potential Problem Areas
> Explanation of Problems
> Solutions
> Living Happily in our World as an ____
> Ten Rules to Live By to Achieve ____ Success


As an example... here is 2 thoughts under those temperments that seem to relate to your struggles.....

Under *RULES TO LIVE BY*".....

" Don't expect yourself to be a "touchy-feely" or "warm fuzzy" person. Realize that your most ardent bonds start with the head, rather than the heart. You expect your actions to speak for themselves to your loved ones. This may not be enough for some. Be aware of other's emotional needs, and express your genuine love and respect for them in terms that are real to YOU. Be yourself. " 

Says this for the ENTJ....."*When You Get Upset, You Lose*". Your energy and rational understandings are strong assets, but can be very harmful if they turn against you and leave you with nothing but emotions you cannot deal with. Remember that others cannot always be expected to fall into your ways of seeing, and when your drive to make them do so fails you will suffer feelings of resentment and even abandonment. You cannot deal with the world like this. Moderate your ideas, allow others their spaces, and you will grow" 



Here are 2 different Tests to give specific 1 out of 16 type..... 

 The Gray-Wheelwright-Winer 4-letter Type Indicator Test  (more serious test)

or 

******* | Take The Brutally Honest Personality Test (test with some HUMOR at the end -should enjoy this one :rofl: -- but still very accuarte. Skip joining the site at the end , not necessary for results. 










More links just for reference: 

Myers Briggs Personality Types | Personality Pathways


The Sixteen Personality Types - High-Level


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## Mephisto

I took that test a while back, and I am an INTJ, the wife is ESFP/J (the P/J came back equal) now that I have read her profiles on here and mine it makes a LOT of sense as to where our disconnect has come from.

We need to make efforts to speak in a language the other will appreciate and not just understand.


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## ocotillo

Mephisto said:


> I beg to differ, it is not rude to answer a question with a direct statement that is truthful, aka, "honey, does this dress make my ass look big?' answered with, "honey, the size of your butt has nothing to do with the dress..."


But Mephisto, that's not an answer to what was actually asked.

When a woman asks, "...does this dress make my ass *look* big?" she's not talking about the physical size of her ass. She is already painfully aware of that, else there would be no need to ask the question in the first place. 

Optical illusions are real and fashion, especially women's fashion is all about illusion. The cut and pattern of clothing does affect optical perceptions of width and height.

You can answer the question truthfully and even scientifically in the spirit in which it was asked.


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## Enchantment

Mephisto said:


> I took that test a while back, and I am an INTJ, the wife is ESFP/J (the P/J came back equal) now that I have read her profiles on here and mine it makes a LOT of sense as to where our disconnect has come from.
> 
> We need to make efforts to speak in a language the other will appreciate and not just understand.


Awesomeness!  Awareness of the issue is a great step forward to resolving it.

I hope that both you and your wife will resolve to work together on this. It could strengthen not only your marriage, but each of you as individuals in ways that you can only imagine. Taking the first step into unknown territory can be scary Mephisto, but you will never know whether what can be 'on the other side' unless you are willing to brave it and try.

Yesterday I just read this quote (from Lucy Maude Montegomery, the author of "Anne of Green Gables"): “_Next to trying and winning, the best thing is trying and failing_.” At first, I was a bit taken aback, but it's true. The best thing you can do bar none is to TRY...whether it works out or not ... just TRY.

And ... you have a very interesting user name. Wondering if it has significance to you...All I know is that if your wife's user name has any significance, then you have a great shot at making this work...if you can work through your own internal demons.

Best wishes!


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## MEM2020

Mephisto,
The whole premise of your post is: my wife said something incredibly hurtful (most men starved to a once a month quota would have reacted lime you)
And her defense is simple: "what I said is true"

And your post above was: if asked "does my butt look fat" - it is perfectly ok to say something very hurtful as long as it is true. I call this hiding behind the truth. Meaning that you slam someone really hard and then hide behind the defense that you were just being "honest"

Once a month is either caused by:
1. She does not like sex with you and has calculated the minimum 



UOTE=Mephisto;833296]Thanks for all the replies, the wife and I have a difference of opinion on what a healthy sex life should be, she thinks as long as she is getting her frequency quota filled (very LD, once a month perhaps) then all is fine with the world, me I would go 3-5 times a week, maybe a couple of twice a days, but am left with guilt trips and excuses when I try to increase the frequency, if I even get it twice a month she thinks I have been treated royally and should worship the ground she walks on.....

We have issues in communication, because I am very blunt and to the point, I don't ***** foot when it comes to the crunch, you ask if your butt looks big in something and it does, well that is the answer you will get. I am not from a loving and wishy washy family, and never had things sugar coated for me, so that is my communication style.

She on the other hand cannot accept that anyone else's world view could be correct or in any way be relevant to a situation that she wants to have a stance on. Thus her online forum degenerating into constant slinging matches and *****iness....

As for the question about trying to conceive, we are 12 weeks pregnant with our second at the moment, but the argument about frequency is older than the first born.

I am glad that I am not the only one who found the post insulting, seems I do get it after all.[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020

Vfw,
Generally speaking, when someone is reasonable they are willing to try counseling.
Good for you. 


TE=Veryfaithfulwife;833878]Dear husband, I'm sorry that you feel the need to get the advice of these strangers. I have tried to tell you many times in our relationship that if you upped the way in which you made love to me then you would get it more often. I am not a hole to be drilled, I am a beautiful female to be loved. 

Yes I may have put on a few kg's since we met but is regularly telling me I am fat repulsive, and unattractive, yes in those words people, really going to entice me to give my body to you... only to have it drilled with a jackhammer. 

There is no and never has been any form of intimacy in our relationship as you think 'that sort of stuff is for girls'. I'm sick of banging my head against the brick wall that is your overly sensitive ego. I have asked you '000 of times to touch me in different ways yet you have no desire to learn what a woman enjoys. Like a typical Aussie bloke you think fore play is taping me on the leg or squeezing my nipple till it almost falls off! 

But yep, come on internet forums and insult me and tell half truths to try to get some fighting ammo, even though I have asked you not to. I dont talk about us in my online community as I know what I say will all be one sided and MY view of the situation and the responses can never really help unless they get both sides... like a relationship counselor could do, but you wont go to see one with me will you? You will take advice of random internet people who's experience in the field can never be known, yet you refuse to come and see a professional with me.... Are you afraid tat they will say we are both wrong when you so desire to be right all the time? 

And back to the topic at hand the reason I pointed out my friends post was to show my dear husband that I am not the only woman on the planet who finds sex a chore.[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020

Mephisto,
One game that's really fun is called "better one, better two". 
My W played this game with me early in our marriage. She started with a full body massage and began with paired moves. The masseuse never feels criticized because they are ASKING for feedback. The the person being massages simply answers with a one or a two. When my W did that for me, I felt very loved, very focused on. So of course I flipped it around and did it to her. Great fun giving this way as well. 

She did 2 different things:
1. a light scratch up and down my spine (and say "better 1?")
2. medium pressure palm up and down his spine ("or better 2")

And he says better 1 (or better 2), and then she does some other pair of touches. He can also say "tied" if he really likes both. 

There are so many variations of:
- Pressure
- Speed
- Direction
- Location
- Body part you are using (finger tips, nails, palms, etc.)

This is a fun game and a nice way to learn how someone most likes to be touched. 

The other alternative is he gives you exactly the massage he wants you to give HIM. And right after he finishes you show you learned the lesson by echoing it back him. 

FYI: I consider myself very very skilled at this game after playing for 2 decades. Still my wife is the sensei. She is able to massage the very center of my palm with her fingers - and the ball of my foot with her fingers - and by doing EITHER of those things she can make me totally hard. Lots of nerves in your hands/feet so massaging someone elses hands and feet can be very erotic for them.

This SAME approach can be used for actual foreplay. It might seem odd, but it works great and is quite fun. I love being good at touching my W. 





Mephisto said:


> I stated earlier that when she started pulling the sex/control card, I backed off on the affection. As for the sexual technique she describes, well there is vitriol and there is vitriol. Quickest way to defame a man is to attack his manhood and sexual stylings. so not really worthy of coming back on, again it is about her trying to control every minute thing. No mention of the times I have been pushed away when attempting to show affection, because it wasn't what she wanted right then, another control method from her.... always about what she wants, never a two way street.
> 
> In the end you just don't care about the words coming out, because the actions speak louder. Kind of like the fat friend sobbing into their cupcake for the thousandth time about being overweight.
> 
> And lastly her paraphrasing things I have said about her weight invokes sympathy and I am the bad man, you think I told her in those words when the subject first popped up. No, I was respectful and asked if there was something she needed to control her weight, as it was part of our pre-relationship discussions, we even bought a home gym and were working out together, she asked for my help as I have thousands of hours of training to have some idea what to do. Every time I suggested doing this or that I was told that it wouldn't work for her, when asked about a healthier diet, she informed me she needed to eat XYZ and couldn't replace it with ABC because she liked the taste or didn't like the texture.
> 
> I have expressed concern over her weight and the health implications of her diet choices, a family history of diabetes and a list of risk increasing factors for her, so that makes me an a$$. When we discuss weight in general I have stated that it is disgusting that people let themselves go that far without doing something to control it..... so aka I have called her disgusting in her view. Does she take ownership of any of it, does she do anything serious about it? No, and no. Looks at a fad diet for a week and it is all too hard, takes a supplement for a couple of days and it doesn't magically transform her so she throws it away.
> 
> So yeah, you get one side of the story, but even when given another it is distorted.


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## MEM2020

Bad primate DNA, he thinks sex is something he does TO you, not something he does WITH you.





Veryfaithfulwife said:


> DTO, I have been asking from the very beginning for my needs to be met in the bedroom. My dh is so bloody stubborn that he flat out refuses to even close his eye's while he kisses me. Silly request maybe, but to me a kiss should be felt, not watched. I feel closing the eyes allows you to experience the full sense of lips on lips and you have a better chance of being consumed by the moment leading to further passion, but dh is always so on guard and afraid that he might get hurt that he cannot even give me this simple request.
> 
> I also have no desire to be put on a pedestal by my husband. I work hard to provide him with a warm and welcoming home and I do my darnedest to raise our 1 soon to be 2 children. Dh does work off shore and is away for a month at a time, I hold up my end of the bargain by keeping everything running smoothly and dealing with any crisis that come up in his absence. I'm not a princess style, high maintenance wifezilla. I am just sick to death of having bad sex and then being punished for daring to ask for a better quality of intimacy. One thing he said a long time ago when this problem was first occurring was that in his mind the quantity of sex was far more important than the quality of the sex. I cannot and will not ever agree to this. No way, no how! While I am all up for the odd quickie, that was all our sex life had become. I do have sex with my husband, not as often as he would like no but I do put out and have our entire marriage, thing is I have never experienced him reciprocating with a night of passion to satisfy my desires. Romance is laughed at and intimacy is avoided at all cost.
> 
> Whats a girl to do?


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## Mephisto

MEM11363 said:


> Mephisto,
> The whole premise of your post is: my wife said something incredibly hurtful (most men starved to a once a month quota would have reacted lime you)
> And her defense is simple: "what I said is true"
> 
> And your post above was: if asked "does my butt look fat" - it is perfectly ok to say something very hurtful as long as it is true. I call this hiding behind the truth. Meaning that you slam someone really hard and then hide behind the defense that you were just being "honest"
> 
> Once a month is either caused by:
> 1. She does not like sex with you and has calculated the minimum


Mem, you are a great proponent of telling your spouse exactly what it is that you want, when your spouse reacts positively to that then you are happy to reciprocate by stepping up and continuing to do the things that she wants.

Let me tell you that in no uncertain terms, I was not offensive in any way shape or form when the problems started to surface. The fact that I was asked to trust her and she would deal with it, which I did, only to see it get worse with no signs of behaviour changing to improve the problem.

My wife has stated many times that she wants me to be more passionate, this is not a bad thing in itself, but when you push buttons to ignite negative passions(anger) then you do not get the luxury of crying foul when you get an angry response and things said in that heat. 

Perhaps I am wrong, but if you want to inspire something in someone, you have to lead with it to begin with. I want her to take her health and her body seriously, she wants me to take my emotions seriously..... I am fit and healthy and am fully checked out medically every couple of years to ensure all is as it should be, I take steps to continue that, I do have a single vice that I enjoy when I am not at work... aka every other month. What does she do to inspire passion? Picks fights and **** tests. 

I played along with her games for increasing passion in the bedroom, only to have her pull away and decide to with-hold more.... did she get a response? Of course, not a meltdown, but a F%&$ that, you want to play more for you, less for me? I ain't playing. This either goes both ways or it goes nowhere. 

As much as she will deny it till she is blue in the face, she controlled the frequency to suit her own agenda from a very early stage, all sorts of excuses to keep it at a minimum..... outside the bedroom we did, and do, have a pretty good friendship, we make a great team when it comes to getting stuff done and we compliment each others strengths. So in light of that, I stayed with her and gave her all the time she said she needed to get her $hit together.

Here we are several years later, we are still friends, the bedroom is still a disaster and neither of us have made any headway to filling the check-list to satisfy the other. Mexican stand-ff at it's finest.

I have been called all sorts of things by a select few women on here because of the topics of our fights. Of course when you have spent long enough with someone you know how to get under their skin, so when one subject is bought up in a fight so follows the others..... the hatchet has been buried a lot of times, unfortunately we keep leaving the handle sticking out.

My wife's willingness to go to a councillor is not to rectify us, but it is to rectify me. As is evident by the fact she refused to even look at the HNHN books when I got them, because my "needs" are BS according to her and I should find the same things important as she does..... 

I have been on this forum for a while now, reading about methods and tools for improving your relationship, as SA pointed out the personality profiling tests to someone MONTHS ago, I did it, figured the results spoke volumes about me and asked my wife to do it as well..... flat refusal until now with the onset of this thread, and it being pointed out by SA again. It is funny that I come back as someone whom words mean ****** all to, and actions are the true language, and she is the polar opposite.....

So MEM, you see this is a convoluted and bat-a$$ crazy situation, I am actually pleased to get her joining in on this and to get it all rolling, we have spent some time working on us and hopefully the words and understanding of each other's viewpoints can get things to continue improving. I am not so naive to think that all is now good with the world, but it is a step in the right direction instead of two stubborn people locking horns and not giving an inch.

I have enjoyed getting all the added input, and also being able to discuss outside viewpoints with the wife. I know I am not perfect, but coming from where I have, I am OK with where I am, and happy to take steps forward.


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## AFEH

Mephisto said:


> I took that test a while back, and I am an INTJ, the wife is ESFP/J (the P/J came back equal) now that I have read her profiles on here and mine it makes a LOT of sense as to where our disconnect has come from.
> 
> We need to make efforts to speak in a language the other will appreciate and not just understand.


You are more or less opposite of one another. Two things usually happen. The first is the attraction can be huge, mirror image of the souls and all that and felt as some sort of primal instinct deep within you. Jung has it that your wife is who you would be if you were a woman and you are who your wife would be were she a man. And your coming together makes a “whole”.

The second thing that happens is because of your opposite natures real, deep and meaningful communication between you is at times like walking through a minefield without a map. Even though you both have good intent and love in your hearts.

One trick is to accept something as the others “truth” without even attempting to rationalise and make sense of it. Sometimes it makes no sense at all and can be difficult to accept but it is a good way of getting past deadlocks and moving on.

Then later while contemplating when you look back on what you accepted without understanding you will begin to see the sense in it.

Accepting without understanding is an exceedingly difficult thing for a TJ to do because it goes against their very nature. But sometimes it’s the only way to move forward. Later you will understand what you accepted.


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## MEM2020

M,
Sounds like you are on a path of understanding. I agree with what you said 100 percent:
I am a great proponent of saying exactly what you want from your spouse....

Perhaps I have done a poor job of emphasizing the foundation of the house:
Within a marriage for the typical couple:
- it is best to meet the needs of the emotionally stronger partner first
- the HD partner is generally not the emotionally stronger partner

When my W wanted - different touch patterns or more aggression in bed or more tennis or more ...
As long as it was a genuine request I did it.

Your W may have her difficult side, it is also true that I could hear genuine and sincere pain in her post about sex. It seems that you think she is being controlling, for sure she thinks you are acting like a typical frontier man - doing it to her - not with her.

Strong as you are, you need to develop a gentle touch, let her help you with that.


QUOTE=Mephisto;855766]Mem, you are a great proponent of telling your spouse exactly what it is that you want, when your spouse reacts positively to that then you are happy to reciprocate by stepping up and continuing to do the things that she wants.

Let me tell you that in no uncertain terms, I was not offensive in any way shape or form when the problems started to surface. The fact that I was asked to trust her and she would deal with it, which I did, only to see it get worse with no signs of behaviour changing to improve the problem.

My wife has stated many times that she wants me to be more passionate, this is not a bad thing in itself, but when you push buttons to ignite negative passions(anger) then you do not get the luxury of crying foul when you get an angry response and things said in that heat. 

Perhaps I am wrong, but if you want to inspire something in someone, you have to lead with it to begin with. I want her to take her health and her body seriously, she wants me to take my emotions seriously..... I am fit and healthy and am fully checked out medically every couple of years to ensure all is as it should be, I take steps to continue that, I do have a single vice that I enjoy when I am not at work... aka every other month. What does she do to inspire passion? Picks fights and **** tests. 

I played along with her games for increasing passion in the bedroom, only to have her pull away and decide to with-hold more.... did she get a response? Of course, not a meltdown, but a F%&$ that, you want to play more for you, less for me? I ain't playing. This either goes both ways or it goes nowhere. 

As much as she will deny it till she is blue in the face, she controlled the frequency to suit her own agenda from a very early stage, all sorts of excuses to keep it at a minimum..... outside the bedroom we did, and do, have a pretty good friendship, we make a great team when it comes to getting stuff done and we compliment each others strengths. So in light of that, I stayed with her and gave her all the time she said she needed to get her $hit together.

Here we are several years later, we are still friends, the bedroom is still a disaster and neither of us have made any headway to filling the check-list to satisfy the other. Mexican stand-ff at it's finest.

I have been called all sorts of things by a select few women on here because of the topics of our fights. Of course when you have spent long enough with someone you know how to get under their skin, so when one subject is bought up in a fight so follows the others..... the hatchet has been buried a lot of times, unfortunately we keep leaving the handle sticking out.

My wife's willingness to go to a councillor is not to rectify us, but it is to rectify me. As is evident by the fact she refused to even look at the HNHN books when I got them, because my "needs" are BS according to her and I should find the same things important as she does..... 

I have been on this forum for a while now, reading about methods and tools for improving your relationship, as SA pointed out the personality profiling tests to someone MONTHS ago, I did it, figured the results spoke volumes about me and asked my wife to do it as well..... flat refusal until now with the onset of this thread, and it being pointed out by SA again. It is funny that I come back as someone whom words mean ****** all to, and actions are the true language, and she is the polar opposite.....

So MEM, you see this is a convoluted and bat-a$$ crazy situation, I am actually pleased to get her joining in on this and to get it all rolling, we have spent some time working on us and hopefully the words and understanding of each other's viewpoints can get things to continue improving. I am not so naive to think that all is now good with the world, but it is a step in the right direction instead of two stubborn people locking horns and not giving an inch.

I have enjoyed getting all the added input, and also being able to discuss outside viewpoints with the wife. I know I am not perfect, but coming from where I have, I am OK with where I am, and happy to take steps forward.[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020

M,
More passion might mean:
- overpower me, TAKE me
- it might mean something else
- in my house - anything but the lightest caress of a nipple - is not a plus - and a squeeze is a huge minus

The very high touch marriage we have is based on the concept that physical intimacy is a gift. My w relaxes into me both in sex and in non sexual affection because she knows I will touch her in a way she likes. Except when she is very mischievous and earns a spanking - but that is never a surprise as she always gets warned first.



QUOTE=MEM11363;855803]M,
Sounds like you are on a path of understanding. I agree with what you said 100 percent:
I am a great proponent of saying exactly what you want from your spouse....

Perhaps I have done a poor job of emphasizing the foundation of the house:
Within a marriage for the typical couple:
- it is best to meet the needs of the emotionally stronger partner first
- the HD partner is generally not the emotionally stronger partner

When my W wanted - different touch patterns or more aggression in bed or more tennis or more ...
As long as it was a genuine request I did it.

Your W may have her difficult side, it is also true that I could hear genuine and sincere pain in her post about sex. It seems that you think she is being controlling, for sure she thinks you are acting like a typical frontier man - doing it to her - not with her.

Strong as you are, you need to develop a gentle touch, let her help you with that.


QUOTE=Mephisto;855766]Mem, you are a great proponent of telling your spouse exactly what it is that you want, when your spouse reacts positively to that then you are happy to reciprocate by stepping up and continuing to do the things that she wants.

Let me tell you that in no uncertain terms, I was not offensive in any way shape or form when the problems started to surface. The fact that I was asked to trust her and she would deal with it, which I did, only to see it get worse with no signs of behaviour changing to improve the problem.

My wife has stated many times that she wants me to be more passionate, this is not a bad thing in itself, but when you push buttons to ignite negative passions(anger) then you do not get the luxury of crying foul when you get an angry response and things said in that heat. 

Perhaps I am wrong, but if you want to inspire something in someone, you have to lead with it to begin with. I want her to take her health and her body seriously, she wants me to take my emotions seriously..... I am fit and healthy and am fully checked out medically every couple of years to ensure all is as it should be, I take steps to continue that, I do have a single vice that I enjoy when I am not at work... aka every other month. What does she do to inspire passion? Picks fights and **** tests. 

I played along with her games for increasing passion in the bedroom, only to have her pull away and decide to with-hold more.... did she get a response? Of course, not a meltdown, but a F%&$ that, you want to play more for you, less for me? I ain't playing. This either goes both ways or it goes nowhere. 

As much as she will deny it till she is blue in the face, she controlled the frequency to suit her own agenda from a very early stage, all sorts of excuses to keep it at a minimum..... outside the bedroom we did, and do, have a pretty good friendship, we make a great team when it comes to getting stuff done and we compliment each others strengths. So in light of that, I stayed with her and gave her all the time she said she needed to get her $hit together.

Here we are several years later, we are still friends, the bedroom is still a disaster and neither of us have made any headway to filling the check-list to satisfy the other. Mexican stand-ff at it's finest.

I have been called all sorts of things by a select few women on here because of the topics of our fights. Of course when you have spent long enough with someone you know how to get under their skin, so when one subject is bought up in a fight so follows the others..... the hatchet has been buried a lot of times, unfortunately we keep leaving the handle sticking out.

My wife's willingness to go to a councillor is not to rectify us, but it is to rectify me. As is evident by the fact she refused to even look at the HNHN books when I got them, because my "needs" are BS according to her and I should find the same things important as she does..... 

I have been on this forum for a while now, reading about methods and tools for improving your relationship, as SA pointed out the personality profiling tests to someone MONTHS ago, I did it, figured the results spoke volumes about me and asked my wife to do it as well..... flat refusal until now with the onset of this thread, and it being pointed out by SA again. It is funny that I come back as someone whom words mean ****** all to, and actions are the true language, and she is the polar opposite.....

So MEM, you see this is a convoluted and bat-a$$ crazy situation, I am actually pleased to get her joining in on this and to get it all rolling, we have spent some time working on us and hopefully the words and understanding of each other's viewpoints can get things to continue improving. I am not so naive to think that all is now good with the world, but it is a step in the right direction instead of two stubborn people locking horns and not giving an inch.

I have enjoyed getting all the added input, and also being able to discuss outside viewpoints with the wife. I know I am not perfect, but coming from where I have, I am OK with where I am, and happy to take steps forward.[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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