# Is Being A Gentlemen/Chivalrous Dead, and if so, is that a good thing?



## EllisRedding

This topic was brought up briefly in another thread, the concept that chivalry was dead, or should be dead (reference was made to an article published by a feminist on this topic) . The idea was that chivalry was archaic, a system that was followed because the belief was women were weak (or really anyone who you directed chivalrous actions towards, you did so because you believed they were weak). Translate that to today, things such as holding a door open for a female and paying for dinner (things I would consider being a gentlemen), well, unless you would do that for everyone you are not treating her as an equal, you are treating her as someone weak, and that is unacceptable. 

I read a separate article talking about the same topic, but from the viewpoint of a man. He believed chivalry was dead simply because women were not demanding it from men, they were making it too easy for men to reach the "end goal" with minimal effort. He argued that women should in fact demand more from men, otherwise what incentive do they have if everything was just handed out to them on a plate. 

And talk about perfect timing as I was thinking about this, driving to work this morning and the usual relationship/blown off segment came on the radio. Guy went out on a date, thought it went great, but never heard back from the female. The radio station called the female, and she blasted the guy for you guessed it, not doing the chivalry/gentlemen things. When he went to pick up her for the date, he just honked the horn instead of going to the front door to get her. He didn't get the car door for her. He didn't hold the door open for her at the restaurant. They had to stop to get gas, and as he got to the pump he got a business call he needed to take, so he asked her if she could pump the gas. His response was that he was treating her as an equal (he did actually say this), how he would treat anyone else, and that pissed her off (so much so that even though she said he was great looking and they had a great time, she wanted nothing to do with him after the date was over). 

Add to it the age old debate about why do a-holes get the girls, and it is no wonder guys' heads are spinning. There are so many messages out there, whether first hand or via the media, that are contradictory. It would seem to me the safest bet nowadays, minimize the gentlemen acts and adopt more of an a-hole attitude. In the long run this may lead to a very un-fulfilling life, but in the short run seems like you will get the most bang for your buck ... Play your cards right, you could even walk away with a shiny new STD, yikes (Tinder and hookup apps blamed for rise in STDs - May. 26, 2015)

For me personally, this doesn't affect me since unless something goes terribly wrong, I won't have to worry about dating. However, as someone who does have two young boys, I do wonder what they will be walking in to once they are old enough to date. I will hopefully pass on to them to be gentleman, and if somehow this offends a female, well, kick her to the curb and move on. I have to believe there are still women out there who appreciate these qualities in a guy (maybe they are just not vocal about it since they will probably be met with resistance as if they are setting back the whole female species 50 years).

To clarify as well, this is not meant to in any way be a bash against women. I am quite fond of women, love/adore my wife, she is my equal, etc... This is just meant to be a discussion on what appears to be a very mixed message these days going out to guys on how they are supposed to (or not supposed to) act.

I have a feeling this should make for an interesting conversation here :grin2: :redcard::FIREdevil::2gunsfiring_v1::woohoo:


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## Kitt

I think gentlemen will be gentlemen regardless of what popular culture tells them they should be and there will be a woman who will love them for it. I respect the hell out of men who are who they are without worrying about what women or other men think about it.


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## Rowan

I think the objection to gentlemanly behavior you mention might be somewhat cultural. I'm from the deep South. We still raise our boys - and girls - to hold doors for people, give up seats to the elderly and pregnant ladies, and extend what we would consider common courtesy to those around them. If a man came to my home and honked the car horn for me on a first date, that would be a serious "no" for me. Then again, if a girlfriend came to my home and honked the car horn for me, there better [email protected] well be some _very_ good excuse for not coming to the door like a civilized human. Honking is just rude. 

It's not about a belief that others are weak or inferior. It's about a belief that other people are deserving of all the consideration one can extend. Honestly, the concept that this should offend women is entirely foreign to me. It's just not a feeling that seems to appear much in the culture in which I live. Boorish behavior, from either gender, would imply that your Mama didn't raise you right. And no one insults your Mama, not even you.


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## GusPolinski

I am every bit the little gentleman that my parents raised me to be, and if anyone has a problem w/ that, then it's exactly that -- _their_ problem.


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## Faithful Wife

My husband opens my doors, pulls out my chair, he also does this for other women such as my mother. He helps his landlady out with her garbage. (Matrix reference, he he). On our early dates, he paid 3 out of 4 times...but by the time we were exclusive, we paid half and half usually. He treats me like he treasures me. He expects me to reciprocate that, which is no problem because I do treasure him. He gives me his coat when it is raining. He pushes the cart in the grocery store. He has stepped in and put other men in their place in my presence (for offending me or checking me out).

This does not mean he will take any crap from me, though, and I won't take any from him, either. But mostly we aren't testing each other like that, we're just lovin' each other. Neither of us is a spoiled princess.

He has also never lacked for female companionship, whether just lovers or LTR's.

I don't feel every man should be like this. Not all men would enjoy it and neither would all women. 

Speaking of giving me his coat...

On our first date, there was a moment we were waiting in line at a venue outside and it was a little chilly. He was wearing a long coat, and he opened it up and invited me inside of it with him. I snuggled up to him and he closed the coat around us. We didn't exactly hug, but it was the first time we were really touching each other in any way. My heart was racing, it was so romantic and sexy. Then I shifted around a little bit, and my hand accidentally slid across his crotch...enough that I could feel his peen in there (he was wearing thin slacks). I just about bolted I was suddenly so embarrassed! I froze. Didn't move. It was only a split second and obviously wasn't intentional, but I will still just mortified for a moment. Pretty quickly I relaxed and had to stifle myself from laughing about it.

Several dates later, I brought it up and said "um....that night when you opened up your coat to me...I accidentally brushed my hand across your peen....did you feel that?"

He tackled me in a bear hug and said "Of course I did, you cheeky sl*t! Tryna check out the merchandise on our FIRST date! Sheesh, I BARELY knew you!" (he knew it wasn't intentional)

I was laughing hysterically saying "no I didn't, it was an accident!", could barely get the words out through my howling laughter...he just kept on "yeah RIGHT...I know how you are..."

It has remained a joke ever since that I "felt him up" on our first date. :smthumbup:


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## Constable Odo

I was raised a certain way, probably (unfortunately) the last of a generation, as I see people of my childrens' age have no manners or respect for others; this includes such things as holding the door open for my SO, or to walking her to the car door, opening and closing it for her. I believe a man should pay for a dinner date.

The only people who have problems with this, I find, are the rabid feminists, who I have no doubt will show up here shortly and lecture us on women's rights, women are empowered, women are not weak, women can pay for their own meal, blabber blabber blabber.

When I see a rabid feminist, I am always sure to let the door slam in her face.


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## ConanHub

I will be who I am regardless of political correctness.

I am as strong and tough as a bull and I will always use that strength to be helpful to others.

I will always treat women with a more gentle hand than men.

Women are more delicate, generally, than men. I don't treat them like untouchable china but not as rough as a rugby player either.

I respect the physical differences between men and women.

I have some radical feminist friends and it was hilarious trying to help them chop wood for the winter! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Faithful Wife

I kinda like being treated like a rugby player.


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## arabian

^ That can be arranged if you play your cards rights 

No it's not, it's just not the way of life in North America. That is why the ladies always warm to me, but little do they know that am NOT a gentleman in the boudoir' .

I like me a lady outside the bedroom, and a you know what in the bedroom. Just sayin'


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## 2ntnuf

I've been scorned for it and thanked. It's an individual basis decision for me, as well as how I feel. Equality is as equality does. I used to go out of my way to hold doors, carry bags, hold the umbrella for her, make sure I walked closest to the street, make sure I offered first choice of food or drinks, offered my last favorite cookie, make sure I...I tried to do as much as I could remember. I won't intentionally let a door slam in someone's face, but I won't hold it open for them unless asked. If I don't get a thank you, I'll say you're welcome loud enough they can hear it, but not shouting. Funny how many who will holler for equality still want chivalry, but under certain circumstances. That's what I've found in real life. I think it sucks. I liked making myself think of how I could show her I cared by doing such things. If I see someone actually struggling and with no help, I will help. That's charity. I realize some of this may not be chivalrous, but I always thought it wasn't worth splitting hairs over.


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## TheCuriousWife

Faithful Wife said:


> On our first date, there was a moment we were waiting in line at a venue outside and it was a little chilly. He was wearing a long coat, and he opened it up and invited me inside of it with him. I snuggled up to him and he closed the coat around us. We didn't exactly hug, but it was the first time we were really touching each other in any way. My heart was racing, it was so romantic and sexy. Then I shifted around a little bit, and my hand accidentally slid across his crotch...enough that I could feel his peen in there (he was wearing thin slacks). I just about bolted I was suddenly so embarrassed! I froze. Didn't move. It was only a split second and obviously wasn't intentional, but I will still just mortified for a moment. Pretty quickly I relaxed and had to stifle myself from laughing about it.
> 
> Several dates later, I brought it up and said "um....that night when you opened up your coat to me...I accidentally brushed my hand across your peen....did you feel that?"
> 
> He tackled me in a bear hug and said "Of course I did, you cheeky sl*t! Tryna check out the merchandise on our FIRST date! Sheesh, I BARELY knew you!" (he knew it wasn't intentional)
> 
> I was laughing hysterically saying "no I didn't, it was an accident!", could barely get the words out through my howling laughter...he just kept on "yeah RIGHT...I know how you are..."
> 
> It has remained a joke ever since that I "felt him up" on our first date. :smthumbup:



That is SO FUNNY! I have the same joke with my husband. Not on the first date, but long before we were doing anything sexual.

My husband still likes to bring it up and joke about me "checking out the merchandise before buying."


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## Faithful Wife

arabian said:


> ^ That can be arranged if you play your cards rights


Dude, gimme a break. You're all over the place insulting people, me included. Don't then turn around and try to do some kind of sicko "flirting" with me. Gross.


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## EleGirl

Rowan said:


> It's not about a belief that others are weak or inferior. It's about a belief that other people are deserving of all the consideration one can extend.


This is how I think about it. People treating each other well... that's both men and women. 

I hold doors for men, men hold doors for me. Cool. 



Rowan said:


> Honestly, the concept that this should offend women is entirely foreign to me. It's just not a feeling that seems to appear much in the culture in which I live. Boorish behavior, from either gender, would imply that your Mama didn't raise you right. And no one insults your Mama, not even you.


I think that holding doors, and such things became a symbol for a certain type of treatment of women.

When I was young they taught manners in school. The boys were taught to hold doors, etc. The girls were taught to be smile and say a demure thank you. 

We were taught that a man always stands when someone enters the room. But a lady does not. A man stands when he shakes hands. If a lady is sitting, she stays seated to shake hands.

We were taught to be demure, princesses and to mold ourselves to be whatever the man we were with wanted in a woman. And we were taught that our purse was to serve men.. like make the coffee at work, cook, clean and be thankful.

An underage girl never shakes hands, she curtsies. And under age boy shakes the hand (in a manly manner) of any man or woman who extends their hand to the boy.

Yes there was a class each year in almost every grade when I was in primary school for manners. (I went to a lot of different schools because we traveled. They call had some forum of this)

The teachers has scripts that we were supposed to read and act out. The boys would do 'gentlemen' things and the girls would do 'lady-like' things. 

Today, most women who object having the door held for them do not even know why that got started. 

I never got caught up in the nonsense of objecting to someone holding the door for him. If some guy wants to do that.. cool.


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## SecondTime'Round

I'm thinking of even the most feminist women I know (and I'm not one of them), and I think all of them would still enjoy having doors opened on a first date (maybe not in a committed relationship), meal paid for, man pumping his own gas (LOL!), etc. Honestly, the only thing I can think that my feminist friends might find objectionable is if the man insists on ordering for her. And, of course, if the conversation goes awry....

A very gentlemanly, chivalrous alpha male is a huge turn on.


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## GTdad

I will always open the door for a woman, and I will always give up my seat rather than see a woman stand, among those other little details of what I understand a gentleman to be.

Have to say though, I've never had anyone give me crap for it. That would be kind of weird, and maybe pretty funny since I'm not THAT much of a gentleman.


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## ConanHub

BTW FW. That was a wonderful story. Thanks for sharing!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ConanHub

Faithful Wife said:


> I kinda like being treated like a rugby player.


So does Mrs. Conan but exclusively by me!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MountainRunner

EllisRedding said:


> ...
> And talk about perfect timing as I was thinking about this, driving to work this morning and the usual relationship/blown off segment came on the radio. Guy went out on a date, thought it went great, but never heard back from the female. The radio station called the female, and she blasted the guy for you guessed it, not doing the chivalry/gentlemen things. When he went to pick up her for the date, he just honked the horn instead of going to the front door to get her. He didn't get the car door for her. He didn't hold the door open for her at the restaurant. They had to stop to get gas, and as he got to the pump he got a business call he needed to take, so he asked her if she could pump the gas. His response was that he was treating her as an equal (he did actually say this), how he would treat anyone else, and that pissed her off (so much so that even though she said he was great looking and they had a great time, she wanted nothing to do with him after the date was over).


I have one word for this guy and that is all..."loser"


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## arabian

"flirt"...sigh, you should be so lucky. I don't do gals that use the word "dude", and from your avatar, I see trailer homes in the background. So yes, gross indeed won't stick my wand in that even if being paid.



Faithful Wife said:


> Dude, gimme a break. You're all over the place insulting people, me included. Don't then turn around and try to do some kind of sicko "flirting" with me. Gross.


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## Faithful Wife

You sure sound a lot like someone who was already banned permanently from here....I'm hoping they will figure that out again, soon.


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## GTdad

arabian said:


> "flirt"...sigh, *you should be so lucky*. I don't do gals that use the word "dude", and from your avatar, I see trailer homes in the background. So yes, gross indeed won't stick my wand in that even if being paid.


I'm thinking that you must be pretty lucky, still being able to post here.


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## ConanHub

On the other side. I truly appreciate the gentlewoman as well. I don't appreciate helpless women and have been strengthened and nurtured and educated in certain areas far more by women than men.

My grandmother taught me most of what I know about being a strong and effective man.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ConanHub

Do you do guys that use the word "dude" dude?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GTdad

ConanHub said:


> Do you do guys that use the word "dude" dude?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


FW and I have mixed it up from time to time, but I have no doubt that she's all Woman.


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## EleGirl

EllisRedding said:


> ...
> And talk about perfect timing as I was thinking about this, driving to work this morning and the usual relationship/blown off segment came on the radio. Guy went out on a date, thought it went great, but never heard back from the female. The radio station called the female, and she blasted the guy for you guessed it, not doing the chivalry/gentlemen things. When he went to pick up her for the date, he just honked the horn instead of going to the front door to get her. He didn't get the car door for her. He didn't hold the door open for her at the restaurant. They had to stop to get gas, and as he got to the pump he got a business call he needed to take, so he asked her if she could pump the gas. *His response was that he was treating her as an equal (he did actually say this), how he would treat anyone else, and that pissed her off * (so much so that even though she said he was great looking and they had a great time, she wanted nothing to do with him after the date was over).


The guy is clueless. His words sound like he has a chip on his shoulder. So she picked up on his intent pretty quickly.. he was letting her know that she’s nothing special. (PUA move)

A date is not just anyone else. The guy was looking for something more than one date. He wanted some kind of relationship.

He has no idea where she was coming from, maybe she is very traditional and wants a traditional relationship.

I would never treat a guy I dated like I treat anyone else. I would treat them as someone special. And I would expect them to treat me as someone special.

Personal relationships, like dating and marriage, have a very different set of rules. They are equal. Equal does not mean that anyone should be harsh or unkind.


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## SecondTime'Round

GTdad said:


> I will always open the door for a woman, and I will always give up my seat rather than see a woman stand, among those other little details of what I understand a gentleman to be.
> 
> Have to say though, I've never had anyone give me crap for it. That would be kind of weird, and maybe pretty funny since I'm not THAT much of a gentleman.


I'll never forget going to the Olive Garden on February 14, 2001, on my due date with my first child. (Back then we lived it up big at the OG!  ). The wait was two hours, and I seriously wanted to kiss the man (all over) who offered me his seat in the lobby!!!!


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## Faithful Wife

GTdad said:


> FW and I have mixed it up from time to time, but I have no doubt that she's all Woman.


You are clearly a gentleman. :smile2:


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## ConanHub

GTdad said:


> FW and I have mixed it up from time to time, but I have no doubt that she's all Woman.


I wasn't addressing FW.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NotEasy

I think chivalry is dying or at least reducing. And I am both sad and happy about it.
Sad because I think chivalry is treating others well, not just females.
Happy because chivalry and peoples reaction to chivalry are good filters. Those who don't react well to chivalry can be quickly filtered out. The girl in the story quickly decided she wasn't interested in him, rather than going out 5 times to decide. I am happier that the a-holes behave like a-holes and my daughter sees them for what they are and runs than that they behave like gentleman and fool her. 

I also think chivalry is reducing as less strength is needed in the modern world. It used to need strength to open old car doors, now some open via the remote key. Building doors used to be stiff to avoid swinging in the wind, now they slide automatically. Thankfully not everything, offering a coat, going up to the front door before a date remain.


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## GTdad

ConanHub said:


> I wasn't addressing FW.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I know, and no worries. I was just being gentlemanly.


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## Faithful Wife

FrenchFry said:


> Ah...too slow.


Thank you! My gentlewoman hero.

ETA: or perhaps you meant Ele did it...in either case...THANK YOU!


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## SecondTime'Round

NotEasy said:


> *I think chivalry is dying or at least reducing.* And I am both sad and happy about it.
> Sad because I think chivalry is treating others well, not just females.
> Happy because chivalry and peoples reaction to chivalry are good filters. Those who don't react well to chivalry can be quickly filtered out. The girl in the story quickly decided she wasn't interested in him, rather than going out 5 times to decide. I am happier that the a-holes behave like a-holes and my daughter sees them for what they are and runs than that they behave like gentleman and fool her.
> 
> I also think chivalry is reducing as less strength is needed in the modern world. It used to need strength to open old car doors, now some open via the remote key. Building doors used to be stiff to avoid swinging in the wind, now they slide automatically. Thankfully not everything, offering a coat, going up to the front door before a date remain.


Hmm, not sure I agree with this. I seriously cannot remember the last time a man did not open a door for me walking into a store/restaurant, etc. (Or that my kids (well, my son at least) or me didn't open a door for the next person).


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## zillard

Constable Odo said:


> When I see a rabid feminist, I am always sure to let the door slam in her face.


Those who are typically referred to as "rabid feminists" or "feminazis" are not actually feminists in my book. 

They are the exact equivalent of a misogynist. Is there a more accurate word for that? 

Feminism is about equality. Cool. I'm one too. 

Chivalry is about courtesy and respect. A code of honor. IMO, it's being a man. I gladly open doors (for women AND men), pull out a chair, or offer my jacket. But if she goes to the door first, I'm not going to rush to do it. 

If she complains that I did or didn't, she can kick rocks.


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## 2ntnuf

Some food for your debate: Essential Etiquette for Young Men | The Art of Manliness

Lots of links down the page to many different scenarios. Could this be the chivalry so many miss, want and yearn for?


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## EleGirl

SecondTime'Round said:


> Hmm, not sure I agree with this. I seriously cannot remember the last time a man did not open a door for me walking into a store/restaurant, etc. (Or that my kids (well, my son at least) or me didn't open a door for the next person).


Good point...

At work.. the guy always open the door for him. 

Now a lot of the older guys do to. But this thread is about the younger generations having lost chivalry.

And I often open doors for the guys too. For example, a lot of the doors at work are double. Like open a door from the outside, it enters a small area with 2-3 doors going in different directions. I think the purpose is to cut down the dust ... dust is a real problem here.

So a guy opens the outer door for me, meaning I get to an inner door first.. so I open it for him. Seems like the right thing to do.


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## zillard

FrenchFry said:


> So the horn honking thing is a total toolbag move. Going to the door may be chivalrous but it's also not being a toolbag.


Completely agree. 

I'll honk the horn at say my brother who's taking WAAAYYY too long, but never to anyone to say "I'm here". 

Especially not a date!

If a dude ever does that picking up my daughter for a date, she's staying home - after I go hop in his car and have a chat.


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## ConanHub

Gotta say. My youngest is almost my clone. Very old school and respectful /protective of women and children.

He has young ladies ready to snuff each other for his attention.

He is a looker and way more charming than me but his attitude towards women pushes him ahead in sexual competition in my opinion.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GusPolinski

Lol... play your cards rights, ladies!

:lol: :rofl:


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## GTdad

zillard said:


> Completely agree.
> 
> I'll honk the horn at say my brother who's taking WAAAYYY too long, but never to anyone to say "I'm here".
> 
> Especially not a date!
> 
> If a dude ever does that picking up my daughter for a date, she's staying home - after I go hop in his car and have a chat.


If there's any fun to be had at all with a dating daughter, it's being ominous and subtly menacing with the boys.

Keeps 'em on their toes.


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## NotEasy

SecondTime'Round said:


> Hmm, not sure I agree with this. I seriously cannot remember the last time a man did not open a door for me walking into a store/restaurant, etc. (Or that my kids (well, my son at least) or me didn't open a door for the next person).


I don't see how we disagree. Most of the doors to shops here are automatic sliding doors, so no way to hold them open. The chance for that piece of chivalry has gone.
And in fact even waiting for someone else to go through can be awkward. The automatic main doors at a nearby shop are so busy I have had people behind me walk into me when I stopped to let someone else through. What is the right thing to do? I now let prams through first, but otherwise try to keep the flow moving.
Where there are swing doors I still hold them open for others.


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## ConanHub

GTdad said:


> If there's any fun to be had at all with a dating daughter, it's being ominous and subtly menacing with the boys.
> 
> Keeps 'em on their toes.


Always wished I had a daughter but don't know if I would have survived her dating season! LOL!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SecondTime'Round

ConanHub said:


> Gotta say. My youngest is almost my clone. Very old school and respectful /protective of women and children.
> 
> He has young ladies ready to snuff each other for his attention.
> 
> He is a looker and way more charming than me but his attitude towards women pushes him ahead in sexual competition in my opinion.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is what I am aiming for with my 12 year old son . He's well on his way, no thanks to his father.


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## ConanHub

SecondTime'Round said:


> This is what I am aiming for with my 12 year old son . He's well on his way, no thanks to his father.


Good male role models and guidance/encouragement from strong women.

I never had a dad and the men with my mom were monsters.

Your son can get great guidance and encouragement from you.

I took goodness from whatever area I could find it.

I latched onto heroes that did the right thing and tried to emulate them.
Women were invaluable in shaping me in the right direction with praise and encouragement when I displayed attractive or desirable behavior.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## zillard

ConanHub said:


> Gotta say. My youngest is almost my clone. Very old school and respectful /protective of women and children.


My daughter is chivalrous in her own right. If the younger neighbor girl is walking home from school alone, she'll leave her friends to walk with her. Even when I picked her up a while ago, on our way somewhere, she had me turn the car around to make sure the girl got home safe. 

And on the other hand, she doesn't put up with crap from boys. One boy at school made fun of her name and she wouldn't talk to him for a year, even though they sat next to each other. lol


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## NotEasy

GTdad said:


> If there's any fun to be had at all with a dating daughter, it's being ominous and subtly menacing with the boys.
> 
> Keeps 'em on their toes.


Reminds of a piece of chivalry I tease my daughter with. I'll be waiting on the front porch carving notches in the shotgun accross my knees, guarding the castle. Any boy who comes has to swim the moat then get past me to the princess. She now reminds me we don't have a front porch, a moat or a shotgun.
But the basic filter of needing the courage to meet dad first is good. 
She already knows anyone who honks the horn from outside does not pass.


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## ConanHub

zillard said:


> My daughter is chivalrous in her own right. If the younger neighbor girl is walking home from school alone, she'll leave her friends to walk with her. Even when I picked her up a while ago, on our way somewhere, she had me turn the car around to make sure the girl got home safe.
> 
> And on the other hand, she doesn't put up with crap from boys. One boy at school made fun of her name and she wouldn't talk to him for a year, even though they sat next to each other. lol


Your daughter is very cool!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kitt

Faithful Wife said:


> My husband opens my doors, pulls out my chair, he also does this for other women such as my mother. He helps his landlady out with her garbage. (Matrix reference, he he). On our early dates, he paid 3 out of 4 times...but by the time we were exclusive, we paid half and half usually. He treats me like he treasures me. He expects me to reciprocate that, which is no problem because I do treasure him. He gives me his coat when it is raining. He pushes the cart in the grocery store. He has stepped in and put other men in their place in my presence (for offending me or checking me out).
> 
> This does not mean he will take any crap from me, though, and I won't take any from him, either. But mostly we aren't testing each other like that, we're just lovin' each other. Neither of us is a spoiled princess.
> 
> He has also never lacked for female companionship, whether just lovers or LTR's.
> 
> I don't feel every man should be like this. Not all men would enjoy it and neither would all women.
> 
> Speaking of giving me his coat...
> 
> On our first date, there was a moment we were waiting in line at a venue outside and it was a little chilly. He was wearing a long coat, and he opened it up and invited me inside of it with him. I snuggled up to him and he closed the coat around us. We didn't exactly hug, but it was the first time we were really touching each other in any way. My heart was racing, it was so romantic and sexy. Then I shifted around a little bit, and my hand accidentally slid across his crotch...enough that I could feel his peen in there (he was wearing thin slacks). I just about bolted I was suddenly so embarrassed! I froze. Didn't move. It was only a split second and obviously wasn't intentional, but I will still just mortified for a moment. Pretty quickly I relaxed and had to stifle myself from laughing about it.
> 
> Several dates later, I brought it up and said "um....that night when you opened up your coat to me...I accidentally brushed my hand across your peen....did you feel that?"
> 
> He tackled me in a bear hug and said "Of course I did, you cheeky sl*t! Tryna check out the merchandise on our FIRST date! Sheesh, I BARELY knew you!" (he knew it wasn't intentional)
> 
> I was laughing hysterically saying "no I didn't, it was an accident!", could barely get the words out through my howling laughter...he just kept on "yeah RIGHT...I know how you are..."
> 
> It has remained a joke ever since that I "felt him up" on our first date. :smthumbup:


That is such a great story....FW....I was smiling so hard reading it! 😝


----------



## richardsharpe

Good evening
I think the trick is that you can be a gentleman without being condescending. You can be polite and do small favors (opening doors, etc) without implying that your partner is not able to do these things for themselves if they wished. 

So, offering your partner your coat when it is cold, or your umbrella when it is raining is OK, but you should accept their refusal in a way that doesn't imply you are insulted. 

It is true that I do these gestures for women and not for men. I do it because it feels correct, not out of any sense of wanting something in return - maybe people can pick up on that, because I've never had anyone act offended at my offer.

At the same time, I will not act surprised or insulted if a woman makes such a gesture to me. If she holds the door, I will say "thank you" and walk through. 

I also don't make any such gestures in a work environment - there I feel that full equality of men and women in all ways is very important.


----------



## SecondTime'Round

Bugged said:


> I'm all for good manners and kindness towards others..but holding the door or paying for my food or ordering for me (!!!) is out of the question.


So, you'd never hold the door for the next person entering a building behind you?

Would you ever pay for a friend's meal?


----------



## EllisRedding

Good discussion!!!

As far as the guy from the radio show, the moment the female started to describe the date you could tell the djs started making noise like wtf is wrong with this guy. My guess, maybe he read an article similar to the one I mentioned in my OP and used that as an excuse to be a lazy dbag on the date. Ironically as well, both he and the female were divorced. After she kept blasting him, he actually said to her "Now I can see why you are divorced!". Of course he got blasted for saying that since he was divorced as well, but that was all his ex wife's fault ... Yeah, a real class act ...


----------



## EllisRedding

As far as a guy paying for food, is some of the hesitance that the female feels like if he pays for dinner that he will feel entitled to some "dessert" afterwards? I know a few female friends who have commented about that, not necessarily that they mind if he pays, moreso of what his expectations may be after.


----------



## SecondTime'Round

Bugged said:


> yes to the first question and the second but I was referring to _chivalry_... to a date...it gets on my nerves on those occasions..especially the 'restaurant part'...I don't understand why the man is supposed to pay..let alone order my food..I find the latter _insulting _to say the least
> >


I agree with ordering the food.

But, you'd be offended with door opening?


----------



## SecondTime'Round

Bugged said:


> I'd be annoyed...like when my SO always has to carry the shopping bags...it gets on my nerves..I've lived alone for years and I took boxing classes for *10 years*..I can carry the f...ing shopping bag!!My partner does not seem to be able to grasp this concept...>


Hm. Maybe I'm just more lazy than you are!


----------



## ConanHub

I never minded if a woman pitched in when I was in the party/casual dating scene but when I was serious about someone, I made sure to pay.

I wanted her to know I could be trusted to care for/ be responsible for a family when and if the time came.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ConanHub

Bugged said:


> I'd be annoyed...like when my SO always has to carry the shopping bags...it gets on my nerves..I've lived alone for years and I took boxing classes for *10 years*..I can carry the f...ing shopping bag!!My partner does not seem to be able to grasp this concept...>


_Posted via Mobile Device_

I have to pay closer attention in this area.

I am ten times stronger than Mrs. Conan but she is in great shape and very capable /willing to help with lifting /carrying work.

She gets annoyed at this too.


----------



## EllisRedding

ConanHub said:


> I have to pay closer attention in this area.
> 
> I am ten times stronger than Mrs. Conan but she is in great shape and very capable /willing to help with lifting /carrying work.
> 
> She gets annoyed at this too.


Lol. My wife will gladly let me lift whatever I want on her behalf. She is on great shape too, but since I focus more on powerlifting now she figures carrying stuff around the house is part of my training







. My goal is always to bring in the groceries in just one trip from the car!


----------



## SecondTime'Round

EllisRedding said:


> Lol. My wife will gladly let me lift whatever I want on her behalf. She is on great shape too, but since I focus more on powerlifting now she figures carrying stuff around the house is part of my training
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . *My goal is always to bring in the groceries in just one trip from the car!*


Haha! My 12 year old son does this, too!! :grin2:


----------



## RandomDude

> When he went to pick up her for the date, he just honked the horn instead of going to the front door to get her. He didn't get the car door for her. He didn't hold the door open for her at the restaurant. They had to stop to get gas, and as he got to the pump he got a business call he needed to take, so he asked her if she could pump the gas. His response was that he was treating her as an equal (he did actually say this), how he would treat anyone else, and that pissed her off (so much so that even though she said he was great looking and they had a great time, she wanted nothing to do with him after the date was over).


Well, if a (male) mate wanted to pick me up and honked his horn instead of calling me or ringing the bell I would be pissed off. If he was the first person to enter a restaurant and left the door to slam in my face I would also be annoyed. Just shows someone who's not courteous/respectful. Alot of these so-called "chivalry" acts is just common courtesy.

However if she was going on about the car door or something then I would consider her "entitled" - fk that!



> I think all of them would still enjoy having doors opened on a first date


Errr, no, I'm on the driver's side, she's on the passenger side, I'm not going to go around my car to open the door then go around to my side and get in. Actually if a woman expects that I would cut the date short.

I also always pay on first date, if second date I'm still paying, I dump her. Shows me that she's the type to take take take. A woman who insists on paying, shows me she won't be so dependent on men.


----------



## Faithful Wife

RandomDude said:


> A woman who insists on paying, shows me she won't be so dependent on men.


I don't get where you guys are finding all these women who are "dependent on men".


----------



## GusPolinski

EllisRedding said:


> Lol. My wife will gladly let me lift whatever I want on her behalf. She is on great shape too, but since I focus more on powerlifting now she figures carrying stuff around the house is part of my training
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . My goal is always to bring in the groceries in just one trip from the car!


----------



## Faithful Wife

Ok now THAT is hysterical.


----------



## RandomDude

Faithful Wife said:


> I don't get where you guys are finding all these women who are "dependent on men".


It's my opinion, a sign if you like, when a woman insists to pay her half, I consider her more independent then others


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## Faithful Wife

RandomDude said:


> It's my opinion, a sign if you like, when a woman insists to pay her half, I consider her more independent then others


But what you are implying is that there are lots of women who are "dependent on men". Who are all these women? Where are they? I don't understand this.


----------



## MountainRunner

A couple of months ago I was approaching the entry of a local department store. I noticed an elderly woman right behind, so instinctively I opened the door, turned to her, gestured for her to go and said "M'am". She look at me somewhat surprised and thanked me. Yes, I open the car door for my wife, I carry her things (she is disabled BTW), I walk on the street side when we're walking down the street, I help her with her coat off and on when we're out.

It is what I've been taught and it is part of who I am. This world seems to be getting ruder and less well mannered IMO. Anytime I see some kid in a restaurant wearing his baseball cap while dining, I want to get up and smack the shyte out of the kid's parents for not teaching their child/ren any manners or common courtesies.

This is another instance where some military training would do some good. Even the military teaches a soldier about social etiquette/protocols and such.


----------



## RandomDude

They are everywhere, and generally the more egotistical they are, the worse they get. I call them entitled / dependent women who take take take and have no idea that relationships are supposed to be give/take. I say - "you want something? go buy it yourself woman!". However, men are used as wallets frequently where I live, tis how it is.


----------



## RandomDude

MountainRunner said:


> A couple of months ago I was approaching the entry of a local department store. I noticed an elderly woman right behind, so instinctively I opened the door, turned to her, gestured for her to go and said "M'am". She look at me somewhat surprised and thanked me.


I still remember a few years back a lady was in a wheelchair and she looked stressed pushing herself uphill so I offered to help. She yelled "Get out of my fking way or I'll run you over"

I should have wheeled her back downhill to teach her some manners especially when I was trying to be nice.


----------



## Faithful Wife

RandomDude said:


> They are everywhere, and generally the more egotistical they are, the worse they get. I call them entitled / dependent women who take take take and have no idea that relationships are supposed to be give/take. I say - "you want something? go buy it yourself woman!". However, men are used as wallets frequently where I live, tis how it is.


Maybe it is an Aussie thing.

I don't get it. Don't see it or hear about it, either.

A single mom gf of mine (whose ex never bothers to see his/their kids more than once per year, and she has no family or help of any kind) was recently telling me about a gf of hers who is married to some guy who is "loaded" (in her view he is, she's just very poor so to her a middle class home and family income seems "loaded") and her friend also works. Her friend was a single mom when she met the husband and he has been a wonderful step dad, apparently. So she was saying "Gosh, where do I find a guy like that? It would be so nice to have some support, any support....a nice house, a decent car...I guess we can't all get lucky like that." 

She's been poor for so long that it seemed like a dream to just not have to struggle. It was just so sad hearing her say this, because she honestly can't fathom how her friend "found" this guy who seems to her to be a one in a million guy and that this is just not what happens for everyone in her world view...she doesn't know how this woman got so "lucky".

To me, he just seems like a regular good guy who fell in love with a single mom. They combined incomes and stayed together for a long time...eventually they built up a little bit of wealth. This isn't that unusual, but to my friend it seemed like something she shouldn't even wish for, it is so far out of her reach.

I can't imagine her or any other friend being all like "can't wait to find me a man to take care of all my bills for me, cuz I so deserve that". Never heard anything like that in my life from any woman. Most of them are just making their own way, and if they do partner with a good man he may or may not increase her overall wealth, but it is not expected anyway.


----------



## RandomDude

Faithful Wife said:


> Maybe it is an Aussie thing.
> 
> I don't get it. Don't see it or hear about it, either.


Nope, it's just a big city thing. Also where I live has a large multicultural population and many of their cultures differ from Aussie, where several ideals of equality have yet to slip in. I don't consider myself an Aussie, but I don't want you to generalise my experience as an Australian thing when it is not. Men in many cultures are still expected to act the sole provider even prior to marriage, and many women expect men to do the same.



> A single mom gf of mine (whose ex never bothers to see his/their kids more than once per year, and she has no family or help of any kind) was recently telling me about a gf of hers who is married to some guy who is "loaded" (in her view he is, she's just very poor so to her a middle class home and family income seems "loaded") and her friend also works. Her friend was a single mom when she met the husband and he has been a wonderful step dad, apparently. So she was saying "Gosh, where do I find a guy like that? It would be so nice to have some support, any support....a nice house, a decent car...I guess we can't all get lucky like that."
> 
> She's been poor for so long that it seemed like a dream to just not have to struggle. It was just so sad hearing her say this, because she honestly can't fathom how her friend "found" this guy who seems to her to be a one in a million guy and that this is just not what happens for everyone in her world view...she doesn't know how this woman got so "lucky".
> 
> To me, he just seems like a regular good guy who fell in love with a single mom. They combined incomes and stayed together for a long time...eventually they built up a little bit of wealth. This isn't that unusual, but to my friend it seemed like something she shouldn't even wish for, it is so far out of her reach.
> 
> I can't imagine her or any other friend being all like "can't wait to find me a man to take care of all my bills for me, cuz I so deserve that". Never heard anything like that in my life from any woman. Most of them are just making their own way, and if they do partner with a good man he may or may not increase her overall wealth, but it is not expected anyway.


Admittedly I am wary around women like that. I don't like my finances to be an aspect of my attraction but that's just me. Many men embrace it, I despise it. Mainly due to being spoiled by a completely non-materialistic ex-wife who loved me when I was far from successful financially.


----------



## Faithful Wife

RandomDude said:


> Admittedly I am wary around women like that. I don't like my finances to be an aspect of my attraction but that's just me. Many men embrace it, I despise it. Mainly due to being spoiled by a completely non-materialistic ex-wife who loved me when I was far from successful financially.


You clearly didn't get my point.

My single mom gf has NEVER had one bit of "help" from any man and she was wishing she could even just find a man decent enough to hold his own. She thought this gf of hers and her husband were unicorns, when all they are is middle class working people. My friend is a poor single mom who only aspires to make it to the end of the month. Her ex left, never sees his own kids, her family is all either dead or they don't acknowledge her. Her father committed suicide. Her mother doesn't even give her a birthday card or anything for her kids, ever. She has never had any money of any kind, and just "not being poor" to her seems like a pipe dream. That was my point. She was an example of the kind of women I know. They are NOT out there looking for a man who will support them, and they don't even realize some women are financially supported by a man. That's why when she was telling me about this new gf of hers and her husband, she was like "wow, how did she get so lucky". The "lucky" part just tells of how poor she really is, as the family she was talking about are not rich by any means...just compared to her they are.


----------



## RandomDude

Ok, well then why did you make this point in response to my post?

Think we're going over each other's heads here... I'm talking about the expectations that many women still have for men, and are used to being able to take take take, rather than to give/take. I simply expressed my appreciation for women who give and take, and signs of these I already mentioned; insisting on paying or paying 2nd date. Money is pocket change, but the gesture is important for me.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Because I was making the point that I know hard working women who do NOT depend on men, and I never hear any woman talking about how she's looking to be taken care of. My friend's wistful comments on "where do I find a man like that" is evidence that she has never had any support of any kind and would consider it a pipe dream for it to happen.

This is in contrast to you saying there are all these women out there who are "dependent on men".


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## RandomDude

There are many women out there dependent on men as well as women who do not depend on men. I never denied the latter, why do you deny the former?


----------



## coffee4me

MountainRunner said:


> I walk on the street side when we're walking down the street.
> 
> It is what I've been taught and it is part of who I am.
> 
> This is another instance where some military training would do some good. Even the military teaches a soldier about social etiquette/protocols and such.


Walking on the street side is something rarely ever thought of these days. My son (17) walks on the street side. 

I commented on another thread about being a gentleman that he also is very aware of his surroundings and if he sees someone ahead he thinks poses a possible harm he will very subtly move my daughter to his opposite side putting himself near the person he feels is questionable. 

I was asked in that thread if it is considered offensive to the person he is moving his sister away from. He doesn't look at it as offensive to someone because his priority is her protection not a strangers feelings. 

I know my son learned many of these things as a boy from my career military father. When my dad passed, I reinforced with my son all the things that I was taught a gentleman should do. He's a gentleman but also a protector it is a part who he is. 

Last week, when his GF was faced with a long flight of stairs in uncomfortable high heels and a prom gown. He didnt hesitate to scoop her up in his arms and carry her up the staircase. When she got cold he put his jacket on her. 

His manners are considered a throw back by all of his peers but girls and their parents appreciate his gentlemanly ways.


----------



## Kitt

RandomDude said:


> Ok, well then why did you make this point in response to my post?
> 
> Think we're going over each other's heads here... I'm talking about the expectations that many women still have for men, and are used to being able to take take take, rather than to give/take. I simply expressed my appreciation for women who give and take, and signs of these I already mentioned; insisting on paying or paying 2nd date. Money is pocket change, but the gesture is important for me.


You are right...there are expectations that each man and woman has for the other....and yours is a more modern, less traditional dating style. I get it...it is all about preference. The only issue I foresee is that how one is in dating and getting to know someone doesn't necessarily dictate their contribuatory worth. I'm a traditional feminist which means I like a gentleman who treats me while "courting" (don't you guys dare laugh at my traditional ideas. :laugh: ) well but I also am a high earning female who expects to contribute equally in marriage financially and domestically. I like equality.....it is mandatory for growth. 
I just think having preconceived notions about "how men or women are" may not bring you what you ultimately want. Individuals are different and that is ok. My husband calls me a unicorn. It is because I know of no one who has ideas about gender interrelations like I do. I'm odd, but I'm still representative of some females somewhere to an extent. Just a thought.....sorry to interrupt.


----------



## RandomDude

In dating I guess I am somewhat judgemental as I simply don't have the time to wait to see signs of an equality-minded woman. If I don't see it within first few dates I move on and focus my attention to other women. But that's just me.

Western traditional style of courtship doesn't appeal to me, the whole "gentlemanly" crap, meh, I'm a 'barbarian' after all. Women in my family from grandmothers to mothers to cousins to aunts are ALL very strong, independent and successful, in history they have always been as well, until sedentary religion and cultures became adopted into our nomadic lifestyle, that's when things changed for the worst - in my opinion. Still I enjoy the fruits of civilisation, but somethings... meh

I don't like feminism, or chivalry, but I strongly believe in equality, meritocracy as well as common courtesy.

(I'm also allergic to pollen - so no flowers coming from me!)


----------



## NotEasy

zillard said:


> My daughter is chivalrous in her own right. If the younger neighbor girl is walking home from school alone, she'll leave her friends to walk with her. Even when I picked her up a while ago, on our way somewhere, she had me turn the car around to make sure the girl got home safe.
> 
> And on the other hand, she doesn't put up with crap from boys. One boy at school made fun of her name and she wouldn't talk to him for a year, even though they sat next to each other. lol


Hope you praise her for this good behaviour. Chivalry is not for males only.
One year of not talking to him for name calling seems extreme. But good on her for being firm and sticking up for herself.

I hope this also means she is growing up fine. After reading your thread, I don't know if I felt more concern for you or her.


----------



## NotEasy

richardsharpe said:


> ...
> I also don't make any such gestures in a work environment - there I feel that full equality of men and women in all ways is very important.


This has been a problem for me before. My work had some security doors so heavy and stiff that some men and women couldn't easily open them, especially while carrying anything. And work policy said everyone had to tap their card to open the door individually. Thankfully my team silently revolted and we all broke the policy for each other. But we had to follow policy and felt bad when shutting the door in front of any unknown tail-gaters.


----------



## MountainRunner

RandomDude said:


> Western traditional style of courtship doesn't appeal to me, the whole "gentlemanly" crap, meh, I'm a 'barbarian' after all.


As am I...I just display my "barbaric" traits when needed or...heh..."desired". See where I'm going with this? 



RandomDude said:


> Women in my family from grandmothers to mothers to cousins to aunts are ALL very strong...


 Same here as well. My father wasn't therre and my grandfather was a racist bastard. The matriarchs of the family were the strong ones, yet I guess you and I processed what we oberved and wwere taught differently perhaps, eh? 



RandomDude said:


> I don't like feminism, or chivalry, but I strongly believe in equality, meritocracy as well as common courtesy.


I like'em all.


----------



## EleGirl

RandomDude said:


> It's my opinion, a sign if you like, when a woman insists to pay her half, I consider her more independent then others


I do not like the idea of paying half on dates.

Instead what I like is that the person who asks pays. This should work out to about equal.

The classic example of going dutch is when a guy asks a woman out to an expensive restaurant. He orders lobster & stake. All she can afford is a salad. I have heard of situations in which this happens. If I went out with a guy and this happened, I would not go out with him again. 

I prefer taking turns being generous to one another.


----------



## MountainRunner

EleGirl said:


> Instead what I like is that the person who asks pays.


:iagree:
And that is all that needs to be said...Ele nails it.

If I asked a woman out on a date and "expected" her to pay half...I have only myself to blame when she never returns my calls thereafter.


----------



## EleGirl

Bugged said:


> yes to the first question and the second but I was referring to _chivalry_... to a date...it gets on my nerves on those occasions..especially the 'restaurant part'...*I don't understand why the man is supposed to pay..*


These are rules that were followed before so many women worked and earned a living.

A man paid for all dates because in past times a woman had little to no money. Women could not find jobs that paid much above poverty level if they could find one at all.

It also comes from the fact that in the past men were the breadwinners. So a man looking to date/marry would show a woman that he could take care of her financially. Women would not want to date/marry a stingy man because that meant that he could be even more stingy in marriage.



Bugged said:


> *..let alone order my food*..I find the latter _insulting _to say the least
> >


This also stems from the above social construct.

In the past a man paid in restaurants because 1) he had money she did not. 2) he was showing here that he was good husband material.

He ordered the food because he is the one responsible to pay for the food. Plus on a date he was treating her, so she would let him know what she wants, then he places the order and adds things like wine and other things that he can afford.

Have you ever read any of the books on manners? People used to take manners seriously. They are just the little rules that society developed to help it run more smoothly. As these things are stripped away, what's left is this confusion that we have no.

One woman wants a guy to open her door, pay for her dinner and order her mean. Another woman thinks it's insulting. So how does a man know on the first few dates if she expects these things or not? He has a 50% chance of getting her upset. 

We have confusion... which leads to anger.


----------



## EleGirl

EllisRedding said:


> As far as a guy paying for food, is some of the hesitance that the female feels like if he pays for dinner that he will feel entitled to some "dessert" afterwards? I know a few female friends who have commented about that, not necessarily that they mind if he pays, moreso of what his expectations may be after.


That does happen... I've had a more than one or two dates get pretty upset when dinner was not reimbursed with sex.

One in particular caused a huge scene in public. (Yes It happened)

I like to know a guy a bit before I actually go out on a first real date. That way I know what I'm getting into.


----------



## EleGirl

Bugged said:


> I'd be annoyed...like when my SO always has to carry the shopping bags...it gets on my nerves..I've lived alone for years and I took boxing classes for *10 years*..I can carry the f...ing shopping bag!!My partner does not seem to be able to grasp this concept...>


So he's trying to show you his love for you (acts of service) and your response to him showing love is to get annoyed? :scratchhead:


We all have our love languages, the things that make us feel loved. But sometimes we also have to pay attention to our partners way of showing love. That's important to. I think its sweet when he does things like carry in the groceries. And I reciprocate later by doing something nice for him.


----------



## coffee4me

RandomDude said:


> Western traditional style of courtship doesn't appeal to me, the whole "gentlemanly" crap, meh, I'm a 'barbarian' after all. *Women in my family from grandmothers to mothers to cousins to aunts are ALL very strong, independent and successful,* in history they have always been as well, until sedentary religion and cultures became adopted into our nomadic lifestyle, that's when things changed for the worst - in my opinion. Still I enjoy the fruits of civilisation, but somethings... meh


I don't get this comment. Are you saying that if there are gentlemenly men in a family the women must be weak? The men in my family are all gentlemen they treat women with great respect and are very protective. The women in my family are strong, hard working, successful independent women. The two can coexist.


----------



## richardsharpe

I like the "whoever asks, pays". 
If there is a big disparity in income, the wealthier person can treat the poorer person to an expensive dinner (that is not a burden to them).

The poorer person can take them somewhere inexpensive but good - and then pay.




EleGirl said:


> I do not like the idea of paying half on dates.
> 
> Instead what I like is that the person who asks pays. This should work out to about equal.
> 
> The classic example of going dutch is when a guy asks a woman out to an expensive restaurant. He orders lobster & stake. All she can afford is a salad. I have heard of situations in which this happens. If I went out with a guy and this happened, I would not go out with him again.
> 
> I prefer taking turns being generous to one another.


----------



## richardsharpe

Good evening
IMHO, a gentleman would never "expect" sex in return for paying for dinner. In fact, to me that is the key: a gentleman does favors for a woman simply as a favor, with no expectation of anything in return except a "thank you".

Some people may *pretend* to be gentlemen by doing favors in the hope of something in return.





EllisRedding said:


> As far as a guy paying for food, is some of the hesitance that the female feels like if he pays for dinner that he will feel entitled to some "dessert" afterwards? I know a few female friends who have commented about that, not necessarily that they mind if he pays, moreso of what his expectations may be after.


----------



## zillard

NotEasy said:


> Hope you praise her for this good behaviour. Chivalry is not for males only.
> One year of not talking to him for name calling seems extreme. But good on her for being firm and sticking up for herself.
> 
> I hope this also means she is growing up fine. After reading your thread, I don't know if I felt more concern for you or her.


I thought it a bit much too. Told her that boys will tease if they like you. "So, it's my NAME! And that's just stupid". Lol. 

I do praise her and validate choice made out of kindness. Very important.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## RandomDude

MountainRunner said:


> As am I...I just display my "barbaric" traits when needed or...heh..."desired". See where I'm going with this?


Ha! I'm a 'barbarian' true and true, though I can be a 'noble savage' at times... 



> Same here as well. My father wasn't therre and my grandfather was a racist bastard. The matriarchs of the family were the strong ones, yet I guess you and I processed what we oberved and wwere taught differently perhaps, eh?


Men in my family are strong as well 

@coffee4me


> I don't get this comment. Are you saying that if there are gentlemenly men in a family the women must be weak? The men in my family are all gentlemen they treat women with great respect and are very protective. The women in my family are strong, hard working, successful independent women. The two can coexist.


Not at all, I made the post to express (proudly might I add) how the women in my family did set a standard for me in many ways.



EleGirl said:


> I do not like the idea of paying half on dates.
> 
> Instead what I like is that the person who asks pays. This should work out to about equal.
> 
> The classic example of going dutch is when a guy asks a woman out to an expensive restaurant. He orders lobster & stake. All she can afford is a salad. I have heard of situations in which this happens. If I went out with a guy and this happened, I would not go out with him again.
> 
> I prefer taking turns being generous to one another.


That's why I pay first date, and see if she pays second date. Going dutch is too much hassle, just let me swipe my card and be done with it.


----------



## NotEasy

Faithful Wife said:


> Maybe it is an Aussie thing.
> 
> I don't get it. Don't see it or hear about it, either.
> 
> ...


I don't think it is an Aussie thing, in that I don't think there is a typical Aussie. I guess you are American. We are an immigrant nation, like USA. We also have a huge mix of backgrounds, personality types and beliefs.

I wish there was an Aussie approach to chivalry, perhaps something like Crocodile Dundee. But he was a fictional movie character.

And this being TAM, we also have some people who are bitter from recent hurts.


----------



## NotEasy

And to any American power lifters who demonstrate chivalry with one mighty trip from the car, let me make a prediction 

"Your bottom will soon fall out"

Which doesn't mean what is sounds like, but fortune cookies should sound dramatic. 

The lab guy at Australia's main plastic bag company told me that after we went from paper to plastic shopping bags, some clever mid-managers at the shops figured they could save money this year by getting bags 10% thinner. He warned them, but it saved the shops big money. Next year they cut another 10%. He warned them again. This continued until they came back with complaints about the poor quality bags where the bottoms were breaking.
I gather you kept paper bags longer than we did, so you still have this to look forward to.
And the secret here currently is no more than 2 or 3kg in a bag and nothing sharp on the bottom.

But now I can show chivalry by power lifting 10 bags at once.


----------



## EllisRedding

NotEasy said:


> And to any American power lifters who demonstrate chivalry with one mighty trip from the car, let me make a prediction
> 
> "Your bottom will soon fall out"
> 
> Which doesn't mean what is sounds like, but fortune cookies should sound dramatic.
> 
> The lab guy at Australia's main plastic bag company told me that after we went from paper to plastic shopping bags, some clever mid-managers at the shops figured they could save money this year by getting bags 10% thinner. He warned them, but it saved the shops big money. Next year they cut another 10%. He warned them again. This continued until they came back with complaints about the poor quality bags where the bottoms were breaking.
> I gather you kept paper bags longer than we did, so you still have this to look forward to.
> And the secret here currently is no more than 2 or 3kg in a bag and nothing sharp on the bottom.
> 
> But now I can show chivalry by power lifting 10 bags at once.


Haha. Actually, a lot of the stores now are offering the customer to get reusable bags (you get something like a $0.05 discount per bag you bring and use). My wife uses these bags when she goes grocery shopping. I can still look all manly bringing in 10 bags at once and not worry about any bags tearing. :woohoo: See images below of typical bags:


----------



## 2ntnuf

Plus, if you buy hole foods, the bags will be lighter.....harr dee harr harr...>


----------



## Wolf1974

Faithful Wife said:


> *Maybe it is an Aussie thing.*
> 
> I don't get it. Don't see it or hear about it, either.
> 
> A single mom gf of mine (whose ex never bothers to see his/their kids more than once per year, and she has no family or help of any kind) was recently telling me about a gf of hers who is married to some guy who is "loaded" (in her view he is, she's just very poor so to her a middle class home and family income seems "loaded") and her friend also works. Her friend was a single mom when she met the husband and he has been a wonderful step dad, apparently. So she was saying "Gosh, where do I find a guy like that? It would be so nice to have some support, any support....a nice house, a decent car...I guess we can't all get lucky like that."
> 
> She's been poor for so long that it seemed like a dream to just not have to struggle. It was just so sad hearing her say this, because she honestly can't fathom how her friend "found" this guy who seems to her to be a one in a million guy and that this is just not what happens for everyone in her world view...she doesn't know how this woman got so "lucky".
> 
> To me, he just seems like a regular good guy who fell in love with a single mom. They combined incomes and stayed together for a long time...eventually they built up a little bit of wealth. This isn't that unusual, but to my friend it seemed like something she shouldn't even wish for, it is so far out of her reach.
> 
> I can't imagine her or any other friend being all *like "can't wait to find me a man to take care of all my bills for me, cuz I so deserve that". *Never heard anything like that in my life from any woman. Most of them are just making their own way, and if they do partner with a good man he may or may not increase her overall wealth, but it is not expected anyway.


ohh this definetly isn't just an Aussie thing it's a U.S. Thing as well. In dating I have met plenty of women more interested in free dinners and upgrading their personal income status rather than dating for a relationship. Is it really common? probably not, maybe 2-10 or 3-10. It does happen often enough that I had to add a strict "no dinner on the first date until I know she is at least interested in me" policy. I agree it's hard to rationalize why someone would feign interest in someone just to get a free meal but hey it is what it is.

As far as being a gentlemen and opening doors or pulling out chairs I found this far less a problem. Been on a 100 or so first dates and only had two make a big deal about me opening a door and pulling out a chair. Needless to say these dates were short and I was glad to be rid of them. The woman I pulled the chair out for made a loud and public outcry about it that made the waitresses laugh at her. I should have asked them out but I left instead. 

I'm going to be a gentleman because that's how I was raised. I wouldn't be with a woman who didn't appreciate that and luckily most Do.


----------



## Constable Odo

EllisRedding said:


> As far as a guy paying for food, is some of the hesitance that the female feels like if he pays for dinner that he will feel entitled to some "dessert" afterwards? I know a few female friends who have commented about that, not necessarily that they mind if he pays, moreso of what his expectations may be after.


I have had female acquaintances comment on this as well. However, it makes me wonder about the quality of man they are going on dates with when they comment about this.

I've (almost) always paid for dates I've had with my SO. She has paid a few times. While she does work full-time, at the moment, I make substantially more than she does, and she also has rather large tuition bills she pays each semester as she finishes her Masters' Degree. So, although she's perfectly capable of paying, I tell her to save her money for school.

I (almost) always hold the door open for her. Before we lived together, when we arrived somewhere in separate vehicles, I would always escort her to her car before walking back to my own. I (almost) always order (first) for her at restaurants (unless we're going for sushi, in which case, I can't keep track of all the different things she orders, so I defer to her.

This has nothing to do with her being incapable of doing these things on her own; it's a matter of respect.

She resisted at first, but she eventually succumbed to alphaness (no doubt as a result of breathing in my musky man-scent, oozing from every pore -- it's a curse, I tell you, attracts women like a giant spotlight attracts bugs in the middle of an empty field.... sigh... but I digress...) Now I think she enjoys the fact that I dote on her -- yet still won't take her crap and will give her a good rogering if she gets out of hand...


----------



## jld

Constable Odo said:


> yet still won't take her crap and will give her a good rogering if she gets out of hand...


I wonder what this means. 

If I am upset, the best thing is if my husband seeks to understand what caused the problem in the first place. Empathy is critical. Calms me down and makes me feel understood and respected. Then we can apologize and move on, resentment-free.


----------



## 2ntnuf

You two should not be together. You are about as opposite as they come. It shows how much it bothers you in your posts. Don't you want to be happy? Don't you want to find someone that understands you a little better? Don't know how to put that any nicer.


----------



## EleGirl

jld said:


> I wonder what this means.
> 
> If I am upset, the best thing is if my husband seeks to understand what caused the problem in the first place. Empathy is critical. Calms me down and makes me feel understood and respected. Then we can apologize and move on, resentment-free.


I know what it normally means. But I'm not sure that it fits what he said. So I too would like to know what he meant.


----------



## WorkingWife

I think there are a lot of mixed messages. If you follow the news, it seems the women who say they want to be treated as equals and think chivalry is a sign of disrespect that you think they are weak, are the same women who think someone else should pay for their birth control because they can't be expected to be independent enough to pay for it on their own or have sex with the kind of men who make sure that's take care of.

I do think that in many areas culturally women get the message these days that you need to put out or you will not be able to keep a man's attention and they have very low expectations. And a lot of men live down to those expectations. I think this is a huge mistake long term.

But chivalry is not dead, it's just dead in some. For example, where I live, the men don't step out of the elevator until all the women are out. It's just understood. I say keep opening doors and if some woman is actually offended by that, ignore her. The rest of us really appreciate it.


----------



## EleGirl

Bugged said:


> The problem is that he does that all the time..if I'm fixing something around the house..he pops up..'let me do that...' and takes the tools I'm using...wtf...my problem is: what's the _meaning _of this behaviour?..i'm perfectly capable of carrying my bags and fixing my apartment..I'm not a child...>
> That's what annoys me. If I need help, I'll ask.


What is the meaning of this? He's not insulting you. He's showing his love. Most people show love in the way that they feel love.

My guess is that acts of service is one of his love languages. So let him express his love the way he does it naturally.

Since you know that acts of service are his love language, do things for him too.

When he does that. Thank him and go on to the next thing you need to do.

There are men who do nothing but come home from work, sit on the couch watching TV expecting to be served by their wife.. yes even if she is working just as much as he does.

Have you talked to him about this? That you want to be respected as capable?


----------



## EleGirl

WorkingWife said:


> I think there are a lot of mixed messages. If you follow the news, it seems the women who say they want to be treated as equals and think chivalry is a sign of disrespect that you think they are weak, are the same women who think someone else should pay for their birth control because they can't be expected to be independent enough to pay for it on their own or have sex with the kind of men who make sure that's take care of.


Wow, what a lot of disrespectful judgments. 

A person has to be on welfare for their birth control pills to be paid for. All other women pay for their own birth control.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Wolf1974 said:


> ohh this definetly isn't just an Aussie thing it's a U.S. Thing as well. *In dating I have met plenty of women more interested in free dinners and upgrading their personal income status rather than dating for a relationship*. Is it really common? probably not, maybe 2-10 or 3-10. It does happen often enough that I had to add a strict "no dinner on the first date until I know she is at least interested in me" policy. I agree it's hard to rationalize why someone would feign interest in someone just to get a free meal but hey it is what it is..


Ok I'm not doubting you...but can you explain how you know this was true that these women were interested in free dinners?


----------



## Faithful Wife

WorkingWife said:


> I think there are a lot of mixed messages. If you follow the news, it seems the women who say they want to be treated as equals and think chivalry is a sign of disrespect that you think they are weak, *are the same women who think someone else should pay for their birth control because they can't be expected to be independent enough to pay for it on their own or have sex with the kind of men who make sure that's take care of*..


Can you explain this more or tell us a specific incident of a specific woman who thinks someone else should pay for their birth control? Or what you mean by "be independent enough to pay for it on their own?" I've never met any woman who doesn't pay for her own BC, nor have I ever heard any woman say she expects someone else to pay for it? Where are you getting this? Can you provide some links or quotes? Or are you just talking about one particular woman who has a really messed up attitude and then projecting that other women feel this way?


----------



## richie33

I hope not. I am raising my sons to hold doors open for women and the elderly. To be polite and respectful but at the same time to be mindful that some people can take their kindness for a weakness.


----------



## ConanHub

EleGirl said:


> Wow, what a lot of disrespectful judgments.
> 
> A person has to be on welfare for their birth control pills to be paid for. All other women pay for their own birth control.


I think she was referring to a rather famous exchange between a not young college woman and Congress.

Also, if you can't afford your own birth control keep your pants on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ConanHub

The whole free dinner thing is actually new to me. When I was still dating, the women seemed far more interested in sex and having fun together.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

I think birth control should be free.


----------



## NotEasy

Faithful Wife said:


> Can you explain this more or tell us a specific incident of a specific woman who thinks someone else should pay for their birth control? Or what you mean by "be independent enough to pay for it on their own?" I've never met any woman who doesn't pay for her own BC, nor have I ever heard any woman say she expects someone else to pay for it? Where are you getting this? Can you provide some links or quotes? Or are you just talking about one particular woman who has a really messed up attitude and then projecting that other women feel this way?


Ok, I'll throw in a vaguely relevant local example. Recently a campaign reappeared to remove GST (a local sales tax) from tampons and pads, because they were an unfair burden on women. Strangely it seems they were ok paying for the tampons, just not for the tax on them.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-05-25/joe-hockey-says-he-will-put-tampon-tax-question-to-states/6496512
Some politicians tried to hold the line saying that it is a relatively small cost to females and a uniform tax on all sales is cheaper. The reports had them appearing mean and sort of unchivalrous.
The arguement quietened when someone suggested removing the exemption on condoms, guessing that males buy most of them. So then both genders are taxed.
I don't know if the contraceptive pill is GST free.
I think there was a campaign for free contraceptives some years ago. It failed. I can't find a link.

Now I will put on this flame proof suit and hide.


----------



## 2ntnuf

You made me look with that post. No, feminine hygiene products are not taxed here and that is good in my opinion. I did look for foods because they didn't used to be taxed, but it is so difficult to find a list of foods that are taxable and not, it's incredible. I still don't know. My opinion, anything that isn't prepared and ready to eat should not be taxed. Don't know if that's still the case or not. One place said the laws changed. Guess they hide that inside this and that link or if you need schecule c.33.1a-f you can get it if you call between or order it with a letter and self abused stomped envelope(borrowed from someone don't remember who to give the credit to).

Anyway, I didn't check on condoms. I forgot. I'll come back and edit.

Couldn't find it in the code. It may be there. I just didn't see it and I give up.


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## EllisRedding

Boy would I love to get a free meal right now .... oh wait ... my Dad left his wallet in my car. Looks like I am getting a free meal after all


----------



## EleGirl

ConanHub said:


> I think she was referring to a rather famous exchange between a not young college woman and Congress.


I do not recall what the young college woman said to Congress.
The post I was replying to stated that she was talking about “women who say they want to be treated as equals and think chivalry is a sign of disrespect”. She was not talking about one young college woman.


ConanHub said:


> Also, if you can't afford your own birth control keep your pants on.


While on the service that makes sense, it’s not going to happen. Sex is too strong a drive for humans, men and women.

We have a choice as a society, we can help the poor not get pregnant or we have support all their children who usually grow up to be just more poor people who are stuck in the same quagmire. 

Did you know that drugs like Viagra are paid for by Medicaid and other medical plans that are subsidized by the federal and state governments? Why is birth control for women a hot topic but paying for drugs that help a man get it up and keep it up are not?????

What benefit is it to society to pay to help some old guy get an erection? None at all.

What benefit is it to society to pay to help poor women prevent pregnancies? Many. For example right now we, as a society can hardly provide the poor we have. We also do not have an economy that produce jobs that many of poor used to have. We shipped all those jobs off shore so that the rich and get richer. 

If we do not provide birth control to poor women, we will become like 3rd world countries with children living on the street because their poor families threw them out. Before we had welfare and birth control, our big cities were had hundreds of thousands of homeless children from about age 4 up.. Children with no parent in site. That’s where the orphans trains came from.. a way to ship all the street urchins out west to get them out of the city. Do we go back to that? Have you ever lived in a society like that? I have. It’s not a nice place to life at all.


----------



## ConanHub

jld said:


> I think birth control should be free.


You should start a thread about it. (because I'm too lazy!) LOL!

But nothing is free. Free for you is fee for me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_

I don't want to purchase boners for old men either!


----------



## EleGirl

jld said:


> I think birth control should be free.


Another way to look at the birth control issue is that birth control is generally left 100% up to the woman. 

By providing birth control to women who cannot afford it, it gives men a chance to participate in taking responsibility for birth control. After all they really should since they have half of what it takes to create a child.


----------



## jld

EleGirl said:


> Another way to look at the birth control issue is that birth control is generally left 100% up to the woman.
> 
> By providing birth control to women who cannot afford it, it gives men a chance to participate in taking responsibility for birth control. After all they really should since they have half of what it takes to create a child.


We have always used condoms. Someone posted here once that about a third of couples leave birth control up to the man. I did not realize it was that high, but we are definitely part of that group.


----------



## ConanHub

TJ alert...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EleGirl

NotEasy said:


> Ok, I'll throw in a vaguely relevant local example. Recently a campaign reappeared to remove GST (a local sales tax) from tampons and pads, because they were an unfair burden on women. Strangely it seems they were ok paying for the tampons, just not for the tax on them.
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-05-25/joe-hockey-says-he-will-put-tampon-tax-question-to-states/6496512
> Some politicians tried to hold the line saying that it is a relatively small cost to females and a uniform tax on all sales is cheaper. The reports had them appearing mean and sort of unchivalrous.
> The arguement quietened when someone suggested removing the exemption on condoms, guessing that males buy most of them. So then both genders are taxed.
> I don't know if the contraceptive pill is GST free.
> I think there was a campaign for free contraceptives some years ago. It failed. I can't find a link.
> 
> Now I will put on this flame proof suit and hide.


I'm not understanding why you think you would need a flame proof.

Your post pointed out a situation in which women were not asking for anyone to pay for their birth control pills.

They were asking for female products to be tax exempt just as male products are.

*"On the other hand, condoms, lubricants, sunscreen and nicotine patches are all tax-free because they are classed as important health goods," the petition says.

"But isn't the reproductive health and hygiene of 10 million Australians important too?"*

What the article and campaign show is that the women wanted equal rights for tax exemption that was given to men.


----------



## EleGirl

Yea the thread is meandering... Let's get back on topic.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

EllisRedding said:


> *I have a feeling this should make for an interesting conversation here* :grin2: :redcard::FIREdevil::2gunsfiring_v1::woohoo:


I did a similar thread 3 months ago... 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...r-modern-world-your-thoughts-experiences.html

Opening post...



> I tend to feel like this >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *WOMEN * ... do you CARE about these things anymore ?? Did the Man you marry DO these things at one time...while dating ... then STOPPED... did you marry the Gentleman type ...and he's remained - still holding true to these small acts of kindness to speak his care, even after vows, kids & beyond?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *MEN*.. did you once treat women like this- at any point in your life.. or do you now look at some of these "sideways" feeling it's just a waste of time...or what do I get back??...since often women don't go for the Gentleman type anyway.. and you find you are better off playing it COOL, a little hard to get / add to the "mystery".. this serves you better...taking lessons from "Pick up Artist" sites would be more your modern handbook...
> 
> I just really enjoyed the article, simple as it is..
> 
> 10 Chivalrous Acts That Define True Gentlemen (And Make Us Melt) | YourTango ... thought I would offer a thread today... I still feel Chivalrous men ROCK [email protected]#
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's to all the women who are looking for that chivalrous, good-hearted guy. He's out there—I've seen it. These are the things he does to make us swoon. (And to all those chivalrous, good-hearted guys, keep doing what you're doing. We love you for it.)
> 
> *1*. *Holding the door.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *2*. *Calling when he says he will call.*
> 
> 
> *3*. *Avoiding games*.
> 
> There is nothing more attractive than a guy who doesn't beat around the bush. He lets you know he's into you, and he's confident enough that he doesn't care about playing it cool. He likes you, he's excited about you, and he wants you to know it. Amazing? Uh, yeah.
> 
> *4.* *Meeting our family and friends.*
> 
> We know a man's serious if he will gladly meet mom and shake hands with dad. And then, meet all of our friends, happily tolerating the one he just doesn't get along with. We see he's not a fan of her sarcastic quips -- the fact that he's putting a smile on makes us all warm and fuzzy inside.
> 
> *5*. *Small, public gestures of affection.*
> 
> 
> *6*. *Making sure we got home OK.*
> 
> Imagine this: He's not waiting three days to call you. He's calling or dropping you a brief text just to make sure you're home and safe. Oh, and he also walked you to your car in that shady parking structure/dark parking lot (because those locations are scary).
> 
> *7*. *Offering a jacket*.
> 
> *8*. *Getting the car when it's raining.*
> 
> *9*. *Stepping in during awkward situations.*
> 
> *10.* *He cares about your opinions, and shows respect.*
> 
> Women know when we're being taken seriously. We can tell when a guy wants to know more about us, more about what we believe and more about how we think and react. We can tell when a man values our opinions and respects what we bring to the table in any stage of a romantic relationship. It's what we look for most in a guy, and how we know when we've met our match.
> 
> Do you love chivalry, or do you think it's dead?
> 
> 
> 
> Another site has listed... Saving the last bite of food, Suffering through a girly movie, Sending flowers, Walking on the outside of the sidewalk, Kissing her forehead..
Click to expand...


----------



## Wolf1974

Faithful Wife said:


> Ok I'm not doubting you...but can you explain how you know this was true that these women were interested in free dinners?


Sure

Few told me after I caught them arranging dates after we went out same night. Some would feign interest then would disappear moment they left...these are the types that are always on match/POF. I mean for 4 years now same women. Not sure if some realize this but sites like POF have forums and guys talk. Ohh you went out with her Friday...so did I and so on. lol

Most every guy I know who is dating has had that happen a few times. All my female friends and girlfriends have known people who did this. Its just not that rare. If you take a look at the life after divorce section you'll see the stories. 

Now taking care of someone financially is much more rare my opinion. My x girlfriend was like that but least she was upfront about it. When we talked of living together I explained the bills and what I needed her to take care of. Her response " I don't understand you are already paying those so why does that have to change?" That was her direct quote. She wanted to live with me bill free. So finally, after I picked my jaw off the ground, I asked if you are working, and making as much as me,and have no bills what would you do with all that money. "Shopping" she said. Needless to say we never lived together


----------



## RandomDude

Wolf1974 said:


> Now taking care of someone financially is less rare. My x girlfriend was like that but least she was upfront about it. When we talked of living together I explained the bills and what I needed her to take care of. Her response " I don't understand you are already paying those so why does that have to change?" That was her direct quote. She wanted to live with me bill free. So finally, after I picked my jaw off the ground, I asked if you are working, and making as much as me,and have no bills what would you do with all that money. "Shopping" she said. Needless to say we never lived together


Ha! Tis a story all too common

Sometimes I wonder why some people on this forum are in denial that materialism and female entitlement is a serious problem.

Well wolf, at least she didn't go "but I give you sex! So why do I have to pay rent/bills?"


----------



## SimplyAmorous

NotEasy said:


> *Reminds of a piece of chivalry I tease my daughter with. I'll be waiting on the front porch carving notches in the shotgun accross my knees, guarding the castle. Any boy who comes has to swim the moat then get past me to the princess. She now reminds me we don't have a front porch, a moat or a shotgun.
> But the basic filter of needing the courage to meet dad first is good.
> She already knows anyone who honks the horn from outside does not pass*.


3rd son's 1st girlfriend.. the 1st time he showed up at her house, he told us her dad WAS ON THE PORCH cleaning his shot gun.. son thought it was GREAT ! He told us about it later that night...we were all laughing.. to us, that's a sign of a concerned Father, or just adding some fun to it (why not!)....it's not an insult or about a man trying to control a daughters sexuality... but this is what many Feminists will feel... so whatever. a whole thread on that here* >>* http://talkaboutmarriage.com/ladies-lounge/201042-feminist-father.html

TAMers were about split down the middle on these T-shirts...opening post link is gone.. but this was the shirt...










I said this one would more represent how WE FEEL...


----------



## Wolf1974

RandomDude said:


> Ha! Tis a story all too common
> 
> Sometimes I wonder why some people on this forum are in denial that materialism and female entitlement is a serious problem.
> 
> Well wolf, at least she didn't go "but I give you sex! So why do I have to pay rent/bills?"


She did, just didn't state it as blatantly as that. But yes to her mind I was paying for things,she was giving me sex.


I don't know about denial. If you haven't been single in awhile you just can't know this stuff. Hell from the get go of dating I was told by single friends of mine that some women will use you for free stuff, dinners or whatever and you can't be to careful. Just meet for drinks first they would say. Of course I didn't believe them till it happend to me so now I'm the one telling my newly single friends to meet for coffee or a beer on first date only lol. We learn as we go.

It's not just a female thing . Men and women can be selfish and users. Both have to protect themselves my opinion. I heard of a guy doing this. He would arrange dates for dinner. Show up and about 1/2 way through announce he forgot his wallet at home and would get the next time. Was never a next time he was done after date one. He was caught in the forums because as soon as one woman found it suspicious and posted something about 8 other women came forward.


----------



## RandomDude

Whoever wants to date my daughter will have to:










Failing to do so and I WILL crush him.



Wolf1974 said:


> She did, just didn't state it as blatantly as that. But yes to her mind I was paying for things,she was giving me sex.


If she ever said that just say "WTF?! I give you sex too!"



> I don't know about denial. If you haven't been single in awhile you just can't know this stuff. Hell from the get go of dating I was told by single friends of mine that some women will use you for free stuff, dinners or whatever and you can't be to careful. Just meet for drinks first they would say. Of course I didn't believe them till it happend to me so now I'm the one telling my newly single friends to meet for coffee or a beer on first date only lol. We learn as we go.
> 
> It's not just a female thing . Men and women can be selfish and users. Both have to protect themselves my opinion. I heard of a guy doing this. He would arrange dates for dinner. Show up and about 1/2 way through announce he forgot his wallet at home and would get the next time. Was never a next time he was done after date one. He was caught in the forums because as soon as one woman found it suspicious and posted something about 8 other women came forward.


Aye, definitely users on both sides, it's horrible where I live, as people disappear back into the crowd all the time, so they don't care who they con.


----------



## zillard

RandomDude said:


> Ha! Tis a story all too common
> 
> Sometimes I wonder why some people on this forum are in denial that materialism and female entitlement is a serious problem.
> 
> Well wolf, at least she didn't go "but I give you sex! So why do I have to pay rent/bills?"


Right. Ever heard, "well you make more than me so I shouldn't have to..."?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## RandomDude

zillard said:


> Right. Ever heard, "well you make more than me so I shouldn't have to..."?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yup, from my ex-GF in fact when we were discussing moving in together. Though it was more percentage-based then just outright trying to get me to pay for everything.
I actually let it pass - only to dump her on V-day lol

Looking back... seems I had my reasons, as cruel as it was to ditch her on the day where she expected lovey doveys


----------



## ConanHub

Love the second shirt SA! Had no daughters but I put that caution as best I could into my boys.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Faithful Wife

Wolf1974 said:


> Some would feign interest then would disappear moment they left.


I'm still not doubting you. But I will just say that if someone seems interested in you and then disappears after a date, you have no way of knowing what happened. Many people are multi-dating and they may have met a better match the next night, or they may have had their ex come back into their life, or they may have just been faking the interest because they don't know how else to act on a date (ie: they may act the same whether they are interested or not).

There are also studies which show that men tend to be bad (in general) at knowing what a woman's interest looks like...they tend to interpret interest when it isn't there and not see it when it is there.

My only point here is that I don't think it is fair to paint someone as a free-dinner-wh*re just because she disappeared after a date and just because you thought you saw interest there. She may have had no interest at all, or she may have had a lot of interest and had some other reason that she disappeared.

Again....I do believe it happens.

I am a match maker and dating coach. You may be surprised at some of the crap men do. It would make getting free dinners look like a white lie by comparison (things much worse than showing up without his wallet).

Neither gender is more honest or has higher intentions. Both can be azzholes or saints.


----------



## zillard

RandomDude said:


> Yup, from my ex-GF in fact when we were discussing moving in together. Though it was more percentage-based then just outright trying to get me to pay for everything.
> I actually let it pass - only to dump her on V-day lol
> 
> Looking back... seems I had my reasons, as cruel as it was to ditch her on the day where she expected lovey doveys


Can't like the vday thing, that is cruel. 

But do like the percentage thing. If I put x percent of my income toward n, it's only fair if you do too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## RandomDude

Aye, I made a thread about it, I had to make a decision to dump her before, during, or after, within a short notice. I dumped her 2 days from V-day, based on the votes on the poll.

She was actually better than most materialistic women I've met, but she definitely was material and upfront about it. She at least, was give and take - only reason I put up with it for so long, the percentage was 8 to 1 based on our income and thats what she considered fair. She insisted on a very high priced property well beyond her own finances, also wanted me to finance her startup costs for her own business. With all these expectations laid on me since we began to date as bf/gf (we were just FWBs before), I had to let her go.

I chose the lesser evil


----------



## zillard

Another aspect of this I've had trouble with is dates while in a LTR. 

I get that women want to be courted, no matter the relationship status, but men do too. 

Do you see your "taking her out" as a duty no matter what, or should dates be planned and initiated by both?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SimplyAmorous

EllisRedding said:


> *As far as a guy paying for food, is some of the hesitance that the female feels like if he pays for dinner that he will feel entitled to some "dessert" afterwards? I know a few female friends who have commented about that, not necessarily that they mind if he pays, moreso of what his expectations may be after*.


 I would not be happy with any man who expected this on a 1st date.. this is what wouldn't get him a 2nd one.. not who paid for what.. 

Here is how I feel... and by the way I LOVE LOVE LOVE Chivalrous men.. If I was ever on the single market... I would OFFER TO PAY FOR whatever was happening in the beginning stages of feeling someone out.. . I'd prefer to NOT jump into going to expensive places also... 

I fully realize the world has changed and it's probably more so the Good men who get taken for a ride...It's not fair that women can line 'em up , date this one, never get back to him, after he paid for an expensive meal with all the games people play.. (both sexes included here)..

So yeah.... I'd be willing to pay everything on my own.. as we grew closer, if so.. leading to exclusivity.. I'd allow those reins to be taken over by him.. and I feel the best of men would do just that...knowing he has his woman on his arm -at that point. 

Had I met a guy like my husband.. he wouldn't ALLOW me to pay...that's just how he is... and of course this would speak lovely things to me right away... . I'm just trying to say it's not something I would expect ... I don't think there are all that many men like him around anymore. 

If the guy was "right" for me, easy to talk to, open up with.. we'd be gracing all these subjects in no time ....seeing if we were compatible on many levels..


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Faithful Wife said:


> She's been poor for so long that it seemed like a dream to just not have to struggle. It was just so sad hearing her say this, because she honestly can't fathom how her friend "found" this guy who seems to her to be a one in a million guy and that this is just not what happens for everyone in her world view...she doesn't know how this woman got so "lucky".
> 
> To me, he just seems like a regular good guy who fell in love with a single mom. They combined incomes and stayed together for a long time...eventually they built up a little bit of wealth. This isn't that unusual, but to my friend it seemed like something she shouldn't even wish for, it is so far out of her reach.
> 
> I can't imagine her or any other friend being all like "can't wait to find me a man to take care of all my bills for me, cuz I so deserve that". Never heard anything like that in my life from any woman. Most of them are just making their own way, and if they do partner with a good man he may or may not increase her overall wealth, but it is not expected anyway.


LIkewise.. I have a single GF who gave up on men.. she was alone for over 15 yrs... she struggled to get by.. when she met a man who wanted to do for her .. it was SO HARD for her.. he bought her a newer car right before they married.. she went on -on our drive to decorate for her reception how it's so hard to receive anything from him, she's not used to it...being pampered like that...like she felt guilty... and there I was.. trying to convince her.. it's OK.. he's loving you.. he's doing for you.. this makes him happy...His 1st wife took him for his money & cheated on him.. so trusting wasn't so easy for him either.. but he found it in her.. 

She took care of him when he had some health issues where many women may have walked away... then a yr after their wedding, she was in a bad car accident , almost killed (in that car he got her), they didn't know if she would walk again.. .. now she is completely dependent on him.. and still this is hard for her.. but to see the Love he has.. it's very touching to me.. of anyone I know.. this friend is deserving of that.. she was always there for others.. so yeah.. some women just really really appreciate.. from the bottom of their hearts.. 

But of course.. there are others...


----------



## EleGirl

Wolf1974 said:


> Sure
> 
> Few told me after I caught them arranging dates after we went out same night. Some would feign interest then would disappear moment they left...these are the types that are always on match/POF. I mean for 4 years now same women. Not sure if some realize this but sites like POF have forums and guys talk. Ohh you went out with her Friday...so did I and so on. lol
> 
> Most every guy I know who is dating has had that happen a few times. All my female friends and girlfriends have known people who did this. Its just not that rare. If you take a look at the life after divorce section you'll see the stories.
> 
> Now taking care of someone financially is much more rare my opinion. My x girlfriend was like that but least she was upfront about it. When we talked of living together I explained the bills and what I needed her to take care of. Her response " I don't understand you are already paying those so why does that have to change?" That was her direct quote. She wanted to live with me bill free. So finally, after I picked my jaw off the ground, I asked if you are working, and making as much as me,and have no bills what would you do with all that money. "Shopping" she said. Needless to say we never lived together


Think of some obnoxious behavior and you will find a some people who practice it. 

Most women would never go out on a date just to get a meal. Have a meal with someone you meet and find out you don't like is torcher, not worth it.

That's what dating is about, finding out who you want to be with and who not.

I don't like things like dinner on a first date. Instead I like the idea of meeting a guy at a coffee shop, or some casual place. I drive myself there and back home. I pay for my own coffee, etc. I actually prefer a 2-3 dates like this before something like a fancy dinner. Why? I want an easy way out if things are not going to work out. 

I do not want to go on out to a fancy dinner with a guy I do not know then have him insist that I know owe him sex. It's a trap. I've had it happen too many times when I was young.

You see there are some not-so-nice people in both genders.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

RandomDude said:


> There are many women out there dependent on men as well as women who do not depend on men. I never denied the latter, why do you deny the former?


Yes, I am one of those -I depend on my husband financially , he brings in 95% of our income.... but I will defend myself from LEECH status anytime such is suggested .


----------



## EleGirl

Faithful Wife said:


> Ok I'm not doubting you...but can you explain how you know this was true that these women were interested in free dinners?
> 
> 
> 
> Wolf1974 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Few told me after I caught them arranging dates after we went out same night. Some would feign interest then would disappear moment they left...these are the types that are always on match/POF. I mean for 4 years now same women. Not sure if some realize this but sites like POF have forums and guys talk. Ohh you went out with her Friday...so did I and so on. lol
> 
> 
> 
> How old are these women?
> 
> I just re-read your post and have some more questions for you.
> 
> How did you catch them making a date for later the same night?
> 
> Are you saying that after a woman had a dinner date with you, she made a dinner date for later with another man? So she was going to eat dinner twice?
> 
> 
> Wolf1974 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some would feign interest then would disappear moment they left...these are the types that are always on match/POF. I mean for 4 years now same women. Not sure if some realize this but sites like POF have forums and guys talk. Ohh you went out with her Friday...so did I and so on. lol
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What do you mean “feign interest then would disappear moment they left”. Do you mean that they never contacted you again?
> 
> It sounds like you are talking about women who you just met. Thus there is no commitment. So why do you care if a woman has another date on the day that she had one with you?
Click to expand...


----------



## SimplyAmorous

coffee4me said:


> *Walking on the street side is something rarely ever thought of these days. My son (17) walks on the street side.
> 
> I commented on another thread about being a gentleman that he also is very aware of his surroundings and if he sees someone ahead he thinks poses a possible harm he will very subtly move my daughter to his opposite side putting himself near the person he feels is questionable.
> 
> I was asked in that thread if it is considered offensive to the person he is moving his sister away from. He doesn't look at it as offensive to someone because his priority is her protection not a strangers feelings.
> 
> I know my son learned many of these things as a boy from my career military father. When my dad passed, I reinforced with my son all the things that I was taught a gentleman should do. He's a gentleman but also a protector it is a part who he is. *
> 
> *Last week, when his GF was faced with a long flight of stairs in uncomfortable high heels and a prom gown. He didnt hesitate to scoop her up in his arms and carry her up the staircase. When she got cold he put his jacket on her.
> 
> His manners are considered a throw back by all of his peers but girls and their parents appreciate his gentlemanly ways*.










....Wonderful young man there [email protected]#....

When Chivalry comes up.. seems overwhelmingly...it's always about opening doors.. . I must have been a feminist when we 1st met .. my H tried to do this for me.. and I told him I thought it was silly.. that I'd get my own car door.. (to me it was like a waste of time.. let's just hop in & go.. ya know!).. 

But really it's so much more.. other things I've always APPRECIATED.....it's an attitude, how a man shows he is THINKING of you.. because you are valuable to him...it makes us feel very loved, cared for. 

It's in many of these Little things.. these add up to be BIG THINGS, very special moments.. like his scooping her up & carrying her up the stairs.. just imagining how wonderful she felt when HE did that.. What a keeper !


----------



## MountainRunner

SimplyAmorous said:


> Yes, I am one of those -I depend on my husband financially , he brings in 95% of our income.... but I will defend myself from LEECH status anytime such is suggested .


So is my wife. She is 100% reliant upon my income...and I have NEVER EVER used that against her. the binary thinking that a mate must either be completely self sufficient lest they be demoted to "dependent status" is simply silly.


----------



## MountainRunner

RandomDude said:


> Aye, I made a thread about it, I had to make a decision to dump her before, during, or after, within a short notice.* I dumped her 2 days from V-day, based on the votes on the poll.*


Nice...This one reminds me of what's his face who said he planned on serving his wife divorce papers on Christmas morning...classy.


----------



## zillard

SimplyAmorous said:


> Yes, I am one of those -I depend on my husband financially , he brings in 95% of our income.... but I will defend myself from LEECH status anytime such is suggested .


Because you can easily lay out your many valuable contributions? Contributions he highly values.

Awesome. No problem with that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

EleGirl said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ok I'm not doubting you...but can you explain how you know this was true that these women were interested in free dinners?
> 
> 
> How old are these women?
> 
> I just re-read your post and have some more questions for you.
> 
> How did you catch them making a date for later the same night?
> 
> Are you saying that after a woman had a dinner date with you, she made a dinner date for later with another man? So she was going to eat dinner twice?
> 
> What do you mean “feign interest then would disappear moment they left”. Do you mean that they never contacted you again?
> 
> It sounds like you are talking about women who you just met. Thus there is no commitment. So why do you care if a woman has another date on the day that she had one with you?
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, it happens. Even in mid thirties I've heard women openly admit to accepting a date for a free meal. Not people I continue to associate with, but they most certainly exist.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
Click to expand...


----------



## Faithful Wife

zillard said:


> Oh, it happens. Even in mid thirties I've heard women openly admit to accepting a date for a free meal. Not people I continue to associate with, but they most certainly exist.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And I have heard men openly admit that they care nothing for a particular woman and hope to hit it and quit it even though he is telling her he is "falling in love with her", while they have 3 others waiting in the wings he also hopes to hit and quit, and meanwhile he's got a meal ticket momma who pays all his bills.

Why do you guys talk about this stuff as if the nasty things some women might do are somehow different or worse than the nasty things some men might do?

People are azzholes, not gender specific.


----------



## MountainRunner

SimplyAmorous said:


> ... . *I'm just trying to say it's not something I would expect* ... I don't think there are all that many men like him around anymore.


And a gentleman would know this, understand this, and of course would then go right on being the gentleman (seeing how it is he who asked you out) and pay for the evening.

Of course it is my hope and belief that you're wrong in the "I don't think..." department, because if not...Then my level of disgust for my gender has just achieved a new height.

Being a "man" doesn't mean one has to "deify" a woman, but it should include how to treat a woman with respect...whether on the first date or after 30 years.

My God...If my mother ever heard me referring to women like the way I see some of these ill mannered man-boys, I would've been slapped clear into next week.

I don't know why this popped into my head, but a few years ago my wife was assaulted by one of our neighbors in front of our house. Being the fiery "latina" that she is, she wouldn't back down to this a$$hat, right? this dude had a good 6-8" of height on me along with at least 50-80lbs on me yet my wife was giving it back...and then I saw him clenching his fists and raising his voice.

I suppose I could have let her handle it being "equal" and all, yeah? Instead I opted to intervene.

He threw the first punch and took out one of my teeth...I finished it of course.

That is what a "man" does...He cares for his woman. It doesn't make him, or her, any better...it just is.


----------



## zillard

Faithful Wife said:


> zillard said:
> 
> 
> 
> And I have heard men openly admit that they care nothing for a particular woman and hope to hit it and quit it even though he is telling her he is "falling in love with her", while they have 3 others waiting in the wings he also hopes to hit and quit, and meanwhile he's got a meal ticket momma who pays all his bills.
> 
> Why do you guys have to say it as if the nasty things some women might do are somehow different or worse than the nasty things some men might do?
> 
> People are azzholes, not gender specific.
> 
> 
> 
> Did I say that?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
Click to expand...


----------



## Faithful Wife

zillard said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> 
> Did I say that?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> 
> 
> 
> You went out of your way to say "oh it happens" to me about women who are azzholes...even though I had already said yes it happens, and men do crappy things, too. I also explained that I'm a dating coach and know very well what happens out there in the dating world. But even though I said all of that, you had to one more time say "oh it happens".
> 
> I doubt you guys have any idea how crappy other men can be, so going on about how crappy women are is just very one sided and implies that women are somehow worse than men when it comes to this stuff. Otherwise you wouldn't have stepped in to tell me something I already knew and had already said I knew, without acknowledging what I had said about men at all.
Click to expand...


----------



## zillard

Faithful Wife said:


> zillard said:
> 
> 
> 
> You went out of your way to say "oh it happens" to me about women who are azzholes...even though I had already said yes it happens, and men do crappy things, too. I also explained that I'm a dating coach and know very well what happens out there in the dating world. But even though I said all of that, you had to one more time say "oh it happens".
> 
> I doubt you guys have any idea how crappy other men can be, so going on about how crappy women are is just very one sided and implies that women are somehow worse than men when it comes to this stuff. Otherwise you wouldn't have stepped in to tell me something I already knew and had already said I knew, without acknowledging what I had said about men at all.
> 
> 
> 
> Was I responding to your post?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
Click to expand...


----------



## Kitt

MountainRunner said:


> And a gentleman would know this, understand this, and of course would then go right on being the gentleman (seeing how it is he who asked you out) and pay for the evening.
> 
> Of course it is my hope and belief that you're wrong in the "I don't think..." department, because if not...Then my level of disgust for my gender has just achieved a new height.
> 
> Being a "man" doesn't mean one has to "deify" a woman, but it should include how to treat a woman with respect...whether on the first date or after 30 years.
> 
> My God...If my mother ever heard me referring to women like the way I see some of these ill mannered man-boys, I would've been slapped clear into next week.
> 
> I don't know why this popped into my head, but a few years ago my wife was assaulted by one of our neighbors in front of our house. Being the fiery "latina" that she is, she wouldn't back down to this a$$hat, right? this dude had a good 6-8" of height on me along with at least 50-80lbs on me yet my wife was giving it back...and then I saw him clenching his fists and raising his voice.
> 
> I suppose I could have let her handle it being "equal" and all, yeah? Instead I opted to intervene.
> 
> He threw the first punch and took out one of my teeth...I finished it of course.
> 
> That is what a "man" does...He cares for his woman. It doesn't make him, or her, any better...it just is.


:iagree:

Yep! There are frustrated, lost males who read books and go on sites to try to learn to be authentic men, and then there are the ones who do not care if they are alpha or not because they know who they are....and it is a good strong man in rather best sense of the words. 

I'm 105 lbs. and 5 feet tall.....I'm not trying to be a protector....I'm the soft place he gets to land at the end of his day and that is precious to us. We value both contributions equally. The strength and the heart. Lovely....thanks for sharing @MountainRunner


----------



## Faithful Wife

zillard said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> 
> Was I responding to your post?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> 
> 
> 
> Well I thought you were, but looking back at it, my name was above the post you quoted which was actually by Elegirl. Her post was so similar to mine that I did not actually read it, just assumed from my name above it that it was mine.
> 
> My apologies.
Click to expand...


----------



## Faithful Wife

I'm not sure why some of the quotes are listing the wrong name? Weird.


----------



## ConanHub

Love stories like that MountainRunner!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

Faithful Wife said:


> zillard said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well I thought you were, but looking back at it, my name was above the post you quoted which was actually by Elegirl. Her post was so similar to mine that I did not actually read it, just assumed from my name above it that it was mine.
> 
> My apologies.
> 
> 
> 
> Accepted. We can agree that many men and women are a$$holes, and when they reveal themselves as such, the fvck if we'll hold the door open for them... unless it's to show them out!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
Click to expand...


----------



## zillard

Faithful Wife said:


> zillard said:
> 
> 
> 
> And I have heard men openly admit that they care nothing for a particular woman and hope to hit it and quit it even though he is telling her he is "falling in love with her", while they have 3 others waiting in the wings he also hopes to hit and quit, and meanwhile he's got a meal ticket momma who pays all his bills.
> 
> Why do you guys talk about this stuff as if the nasty things some women might do are somehow different or worse than the nasty things some men might do?
> 
> People are azzholes, not gender specific.
> 
> 
> 
> On that line, I've heard men on TAM talk about agreeing with their wives during an argument, when they really don't. Then they say they got laid that night, and finish up with, "now who really WON that argument?"
> 
> I think that's disgusting. I'd rather not get laid for a month than agree to something I don't.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
Click to expand...


----------



## SimplyAmorous

MountainRunner said:


> So is my wife. She is 100% reliant upon my income...*and I have NEVER EVER used that against her*. the binary thinking that a mate must either be completely self sufficient lest they be demoted to "dependent status" is simply silly.


...And this makes YOU a true Gentleman... of course it helps when we do OUR PART and do it well.. (I'd be the 1st to hammer that)...



> *Because you can easily lay out your many valuable contributions? Contributions he highly values.
> 
> Awesome. No problem with that*.


 It's always better when the MAN lays them out though.  



MountainRunner said:


> And a gentleman would know this, understand this, and of course would then go right on being the gentleman (seeing how it is he who asked you out) and pay for the evening.
> 
> Of course it is my hope and belief that you're wrong in the "I don't think..." department, because if not...Then my level of disgust for my gender has just achieved a new height.
> 
> Being a "man" doesn't mean one has to "deify" a woman, but it should include how to treat a woman with respect...whether on the first date or after 30 years.


 I was reading more into it with my thoughts...one could say I see men in 2 different camps. you got your older fashioned Gentleman... who treat women like a Lady... understands she needs to feel safe, cared for, an emotional connection , valued before he gets into her pants.. and you have your more modern variety who expects sex by the 3rd date... I feel those are far more plentiful today. 



> I don't know why this popped into my head, but a few years ago my wife was assaulted by one of our neighbors in front of our house. Being the fiery "latina" that she is, she wouldn't back down to this a$$hat, right? this dude had a good 6-8" of height on me along with at least 50-80lbs on me yet my wife was giving it back...and then I saw him clenching his fists and raising his voice.
> 
> I suppose I could have let her handle it being "equal" and all, yeah? Instead I opted to intervene.
> 
> *He threw the first punch and took out one of my teeth...I finished it of course.
> 
> That is what a "man" does...He cares for his woman. It doesn't make him, or her, any better...it just is*.


:smthumbup: My husband is not a big Rough guy.. but yeah.. like yourself....if ever our lives were in danger.. he'd jump in to Protect us , no matter the consequences to him.. this I know.. Yes, that's what MEN do..


----------



## richardsharpe

Good evening workingwife
There are a lot of women - billions of them. They want different things. Some want independence, some want support, some want traditional gender roles, some want a gender-blind society.

This makes it seem like a mixed message - because it is, it is mixed by the billions of independent people. 

Same of course applies to men. 

Any attempt to assign common desires, or behaviors to a large segment of the population is likely to give very confusing results. 




WorkingWife said:


> I think there are a lot of mixed messages. If you follow the news, it seems the women who say they want to be treated as equals and think chivalry is a sign of disrespect that you think they are weak, are the same women who think someone else should pay for their birth control because they can't be expected to be independent enough to pay for it on their own or have sex with the kind of men who make sure that's take care of.
> 
> I do think that in many areas culturally women get the message these days that you need to put out or you will not be able to keep a man's attention and they have very low expectations. And a lot of men live down to those expectations. I think this is a huge mistake long term.
> 
> But chivalry is not dead, it's just dead in some. For example, where I live, the men don't step out of the elevator until all the women are out. It's just understood. I say keep opening doors and if some woman is actually offended by that, ignore her. The rest of us really appreciate it.


----------



## MountainRunner

ConanHub said:


> Love stories like that MountainRunner!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thank you my friend. I was gonna PM ya "the rest of the story" but I believe you can't receive PMs from members?


----------



## zillard

SimplyAmorous said:


> ...And this makes YOU a true Gentleman... of course it helps when we do OUR PART and do it well.. (I'd be the 1st to hammer that)...
> 
> It's always better when the MAN lays them out though.
> 
> I was reading more into it with my thoughts...one could say I see men in 2 different camps. you got your older fashioned Gentleman... who treat women like a Lady... understands she needs to feel safe, cared for, an emotional connection , valued before he gets into her pants.. and you have your more modern variety who expects sex by the 3rd date... I feel those are far more plentiful today.
> 
> 
> 
> :smthumbup: My husband is not a big Rough guy.. but yeah.. like yourself....if ever our lives were in danger.. he'd jump in to Protect us , no matter the consequences to him.. this I know.. Yes, that's what MEN do..


I was raised very old fashioned. Military father and SAHM. That did involve mom cooking and cleaning. But it was always something to respect. If not, she had a wooden spoon and dad had a belt hanging on a nail in the wall. Rarely used, but we knew. 

As sons we protected our sisters and younger siblings. The daughters ensured the sons were not ignorant of the duties around the house and it was mandatory to lift and carry whenever the females asked. 

The males were taught to shoot and hunt, provide, work, and protect. None of that was due to inequality, but shared responsibility. Equal hours of work before play. 

I strongly feel that is a big reason why I don't date to fvck. Don't like ONS. Even though my raising had nothing to do with sex. But instilled respect and a value of sharing responsibility, vs power struggle
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Wolf1974

Faithful Wife said:


> I'm still not doubting you. But I will just say that if someone seems interested in you and then disappears after a date, you have no way of knowing what happened. Many people are multi-dating and they may have met a better match the next night, or they may have had their ex come back into their life, or they may have just been faking the interest because they don't know how else to act on a date (ie: they may act the same whether they are interested or not).
> 
> There are also studies which show that men tend to be bad (in general) at knowing what a woman's interest looks like...they tend to interpret interest when it isn't there and not see it when it is there.
> 
> My only point here is that I don't think it is fair to paint someone as a free-dinner-wh*re just because she disappeared after a date and just because you thought you saw interest there. _She may have had no interest at all, or she may have had a lot of interest and had some other reason that she disappeared._
> 
> Again....I do believe it happens.
> 
> I am a match maker and dating coach. You may be surprised at some of the crap men do. It would make getting free dinners look like a white lie by comparison (things much worse than showing up without his wallet).
> 
> Neither gender is more honest or has higher intentions. Both can be azzholes or saints.



Thats fine if they have no interest but then don't lie and say you have interest and want to go out again then disappear 20 minutes later never to be heard from again. I have had plenty of dates where I don't have interest or they don't. No issue with that. No need to lie about it either.

Funny you didn't mention the women I caught actually making plans to go out with other gUys after dinner or the women caught and outed through the dating sites forums. I'm well adept at reading people so determining interest isn't that difficult...nor is determining when someone is being fake. What is difficult is accepting this is the way things really are. Objectively it's hard to understand why anyone would do this. Even you seem hard pressed to understand it. But once you accept it happens it really
Isn't that hard to spot and not play into.....just have to see its there first.

In any case it's a very simple remedy...just don't have dinner first dates and problem solved. Since I made that personal policy it becomes very easy to weed out anyone not really interested in getting to know me. I'm a hard learner though and had to learn this the hard way.. :smile2:


----------



## zillard

I remember my grandfather, a WWII vet, had a plague near the dinner table. It said, "I'm the head of the family. My wife is the neck. When the neck turns, so does the head."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Wolf1974

EleGirl said:


> Think of some obnoxious behavior and you will find a some people who practice it.
> 
> Most *good* women would never go out on a date just to get a meal. Have a meal with someone you meet and find out you don't like is torcher, not worth it.
> 
> That's what dating is about, finding out who you want to be with and who not.
> 
> I don't like things like dinner on a first date. Instead I like the idea of meeting a guy at a coffee shop, or some casual place. I drive myself there and back home. I pay for my own coffee, etc. I actually prefer a 2-3 dates like this before something like a fancy dinner. Why? I want an easy way out if things are not going to work out.
> 
> I do not want to go on out to a fancy dinner with a guy I do not know then have him insist that I know owe him sex. It's a trap. I've had it happen too many times when I was young.
> 
> You see there are some not-so-nice people in both genders.


Fixed that for ya. 
Easiest thing to do is just weed them out up front. I agree it boggles the mind but people do some strange stuff. When it comes to dating it's a free for all of great people to scum of the earth and everything in between


----------



## jld

zillard said:


> I remember my grandfather, a WWII vet, had a plague near the dinner table. It said, "I'm the head of the family. My wife is the neck. When the neck turns, so does the head."
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Lol. The way I heard that is, "The neck turns the head wherever it wants it to go."


----------



## zillard

jld said:


> Lol. The way I heard that is, "The neck turns the head wherever it wants it to go."


Sure... if no mutual respect exists.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

zillard said:


> Sure... if no mutual respect exists.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think it was just saying that even in traditional families, the woman has power, too.


----------



## Wolf1974

Faithful Wife said:


> zillard said:
> 
> 
> 
> And I have heard men openly admit that they care nothing for a particular woman and hope to hit it and quit it even though he is telling her he is "falling in love with her", while they have 3 others waiting in the wings he also hopes to hit and quit, and meanwhile he's got a meal ticket momma who pays all his bills.
> 
> Why do you guys talk about this stuff as if the nasty things some women might do are somehow different or worse than the nasty things some men might do?
> 
> People are azzholes, not gender specific.
> 
> 
> 
> Cause unless guys date other guys then the experience they will have, good and bad, is with women, so that's what they would talk about
> 
> I don't see anyone saying guys don't do horrible crap as well...I said they did in my first post but let's not paint women with some enlightend brush either. Both genders have shallow users . That's why when it comes to dating taking it slow, low expectation, and simple is best
Click to expand...


----------



## zillard

I see it as very similar to Athol kay's pilot/copilot agreement. 

Amount of duties are comparable, and if one or other is lacking, the other takes over.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

jld said:


> I think it was just saying that even in traditional families, the woman has power, too.


More importantly, at a time when that was not so important (socially), my GF made it so. And I picked up on that and love him for it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Faithful Wife

Wolf1974 said:


> Objectively it's hard to understand why anyone would do this. Even you seem hard pressed to understand it.


I understand it, not sure why you think I do not.

It is simple human nature. We're animals, plain and simple. We'll do anything to serve ourselves and stomp on others.

Most of us rise above our natures but some don't. Some use our nature and then screw it into something totally unnatural. Nothing unusual. We see it in every form possible.

We also see people who are capable of great love, great strength and courage that belies our beastly natures.

I just don't see the point of lamenting what one gender does when the other does the same thing.

I know you did acknowledge the guys who are azzholes, too. But to me there's no reason to bring up one and focus on it by itself. Again, it is a human thing. As are the loving things we do.


----------



## EleGirl

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening workingwife
> There are a lot of women - billions of them. They want different things. Some want independence, some want support, some want traditional gender roles, some want a gender-blind society.
> 
> *This makes it seem like a mixed message *- because it is, it is mixed by the billions of independent people.
> 
> Same of course applies to men.
> 
> Any attempt to assign common desires, or behaviors to a large segment of the population is likely to give very confusing results.


Exactly. It's as if some think that women are one big glob.. or maybe like an Aspin forest that has one root system and a forest full of trees. So with this thinking, I suppose it's easy to think that all women should want the same thing.

We don't. We are as much individuals as men are.

No one person should have to carry the blame for something that another person has done.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Wolf1974 said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't see anyone saying guys don't do horrible crap as well...I said they did in my first post but let's not paint women with some enlightend brush either. Both genders have shallow users . That's why when it comes to dating taking it slow, low expectation, and simple is best
> 
> 
> 
> No one has painted women with an enlightened brush, have they? Certainly not me.
Click to expand...


----------



## zillard

Faithful Wife said:


> Wolf1974 said:
> 
> 
> 
> No one has painted women with an enlightened brush, have they? Certainly not me.
> 
> 
> 
> Haven't seen you do it, that's true. Has happened here often, and vice versa.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> 
> Come on @EleGirl - as a moderator I know you've seen it.
Click to expand...


----------



## Wolf1974

Faithful Wife said:


> I understand it, not sure why you think I do not.
> 
> It is simple human nature. We're animals, plain and simple. We'll do anything to serve ourselves and stomp on others.
> 
> Most of us rise above our natures but some don't. Some use our nature and then screw it into something totally unnatural. Nothing unusual. We see it in every form possible.
> 
> We also see people who are capable of great love, great strength and courage that belies our beastly natures.
> 
> I just don't see the point of lamenting what one gender does when the other does the same thing.
> 
> I know you did acknowledge the guys who are azzholes, too. But to me there's no reason to bring up one and focus on it by itself. Again, it is a human thing. As are the loving things we do.


I didn't start this tangent though so I can't get credit for that. Random guy said something about it and you quoted him saying it must be an Aussie thing. All I said was no its a U.S. Thing as well because I have also experienced this. That was my *only*point that it's widespread. Everything else was just answering questions I was asked about how I knew this happend. 

This is no heartburn for me at all. I learned the simplest solution to weed this out and have never had it happen since. I mean unless you kinda know the date beforehand and know you get along I think dinner is a terrible first date. Not the money but being locked into an hour for dinner with someone you recognize in the first 5 minutes you have zero interest in would be horrible.


----------



## Wolf1974

Faithful Wife said:


> Wolf1974 said:
> 
> 
> 
> No one has painted women with an enlightened brush, have they? Certainly not me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Was certainly my impression in the beginning yes. If you contend that women can be users as can men then we are on the same page 100%
Click to expand...


----------



## Faithful Wife

Of course women can be azzholes. And men can be wonderful gentlemen. I've never felt women were "better" than men. It is odd to me that people would think this at all, so when it is talked about as if some of us do, I just don't get it.


----------



## Faithful Wife

zillard said:


> Haven't seen you do it, that's true. Has happened here often, and vice versa.
> .


Can you give an example? I honestly don't know what you even mean or who says things that sound like women are harmless in general while men are horrible, if that is what you are implying.


----------



## EleGirl

zillard said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> 
> Haven't seen you do it, that's true. Has happened here often, and vice versa.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> 
> Come on @EleGirl - as a moderator I know you've seen it.
> 
> 
> 
> Please go back to this quote that I posted here and look at who was quoted. I don't see any quote from me on that post so I'm not sure you quoted FW but then addressed me. :scratchhead:
> 
> But to address your question. No I have not seen anyone paint women as a whole with an enlighten brush. Well except for one poster who was called down by a lot of the women on TAM for her attack on men.
> 
> So if you can provide some links to where this is being done to who that it's systemic here, please do.
Click to expand...


----------



## zillard

Faithful Wife said:


> Of course women can be azzholes. And men can be wonderful gentlemen. I've never felt women were "better" than men. It is odd to me that people would think this at all, so when it is talked about as if some of us do, I just don't get it.


Of course some of us do. The "why" is no mystery to me at all. And even if you don't get it, that's no reason to be offended when someone points out that it happens

Getting offended over something someone of your sex does means you identify too much with your sex instead of being a good human.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EleGirl

EleGirl said:


> Think of some obnoxious behavior and you will find a some people who practice it.
> 
> Most *good* women would never go out on a date just to get a meal. Have a meal with someone you meet and find out you don't like is torcher, not worth it.
> 
> That's what dating is about, finding out who you want to be with and who not.
> 
> I don't like things like dinner on a first date. Instead I like the idea of meeting a guy at a coffee shop, or some casual place. I drive myself there and back home. I pay for my own coffee, etc. I actually prefer a 2-3 dates like this before something like a fancy dinner. Why? I want an easy way out if things are not going to work out.
> 
> I do not want to go on out to a fancy dinner with a guy I do not know then have him insist that I know owe him sex. It's a trap. I've had it happen too many times when I was young.
> 
> You see there are some not-so-nice people in both genders.





Wolf1974 said:


> Fixed that for ya.
> Easiest thing to do is just weed them out up front. I agree it boggles the mind but people do some strange stuff. When it comes to dating it's a free for all of great people to scum of the earth and everything in between


Nope what you did, did not fix it. 

Why? Because ALL GOOD Women would never go out on a date just to get a meal. By definition, if a woman goes on dates just to get free meals, she’s not a good woman. She’s using guys. She’s playing them.

So my sentence holds. MOST WOMEN would not do it. This ease that there are some women who would do it and thus who are not good women.


----------



## RandomDude

SimplyAmorous said:


> Yes, I am one of those -I depend on my husband financially , he brings in 95% of our income.... but I will defend myself from LEECH status anytime such is suggested .


I think it has to do with expectations really, like, ex-wife didn't expect me to be a sole provider, didn't demand it, didn't look down on me if I wasn't one, but I became one anyway as I wanted our daughter to receive full attention in her early years (I did have problems with ex-wife's dependence when daughter started schooling however, as we only had 1 child)

With you, I doubt your husband gives a crap  You're soulmates, and happy living the traditional lifestyle. Besides you had your hands full with plenty of kids no?

Ex-GF wanted this, wanted that, and gave me the impression that I was being used. Never liked the vibe she gave me. Ex-wife I knew from the start that she had zero financial standards, I didn't have the "used" vibe at all. Ex-GF completely different story, I sucked it up anyway, as ex-wife was very rare, and materialistic women are the norm where I live.


----------



## zillard

EleGirl said:


> zillard said:
> 
> 
> 
> Please go back to this quote that I posted here and look at who was quoted. I don't see any quote from me on that post so I'm not sure you quoted FW but then addressed me. :scratchhead:
> 
> But to address your question. No I have not seen anyone paint women as a whole with an enlighten brush. Well except for one poster who was called down by a lot of the women on TAM for her attack on men.
> 
> So if you can provide some links to where this is being done to who that it's systemic here, please do.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm questioning your like of said post. And you've admitted in your response that it's happened. No due diligence on my part required.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
Click to expand...


----------



## zillard

EleGirl said:


> Nope what you did, did not fix it.
> 
> Why? Because ALL GOOD Women would never go out on a date just to get a meal. By definition, if a woman goes on dates just to get free meals, she’s not a good woman. She’s using guys. She’s playing them.
> 
> So my sentence holds. MOST WOMEN would not do it. This ease that there are some women who would do it and thus who are not good women.


Completely agree. No good human, man or woman, would.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Kitt

RandomDude said:


> I think it has to do with expectations really, like, ex-wife didn't expect me to be a sole provider, didn't demand it, didn't look down on me if I wasn't one, but I became one anyway as I wanted our daughter to receive full attention in her early years (I did have problems with ex-wife's dependence when daughter started schooling however, as we only had 1 child)
> 
> With you, I doubt your husband gives a crap  You're soulmates, and happy living the traditional lifestyle. Besides you had your hands full with plenty of kids no?
> 
> Ex-GF wanted this, wanted that, and gave me the impression that I was being used. Never liked the vibe she gave me. Ex-wife I knew from the start that she had zero financial standards, I didn't have the "used" vibe at all. Ex-GF completely different story, I sucked it up anyway, as ex-wife was very rare, and materialistic women are the norm where I live.


How is your daughter? Do you have a good relationship with your ex wife? Im sorry, but I'm new...just trying to get where you are coming from though I get a lot of what you are saying as I lived in LA for a while and I was horrified. Do you think your chivalry is shaped by your exes and your place of residence?


----------



## Faithful Wife

zillard said:


> Of course some of us do. The "why" is no mystery to me at all. And even if you don't get it, that's no reason to be offended when someone points out that it happens
> 
> Getting offended over something someone of your sex does means you identify too much with your sex instead of being a good human.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Did you just imply I'm not a "good human"?

I'm so confused by all of this. I simply don't understand the bashing of either gender by anyone, and that is all I have been getting at.

You obviously haven't seen it but I speak out on posts that bash men, too. Speaking out does not mean I'm personally offended whether men or women are bashed, it means I have conviction about the topic. The reason I have such conviction about it is that I do not see one gender as better or worse than the other and I am outspoken in general. I have chosen all of my words very deliberately in all of my posts, but if you want to label me as "not a good human" in spite of that, then oh well, I guess. I don't get it but whatevs.


----------



## EleGirl

EleGirl said:


> zillard said:
> 
> 
> 
> Please go back to this quote that I posted here and look at who was quoted. I don't see any quote from me on that post so I'm not sure you quoted FW but then addressed me. :scratchhead:
> 
> But to address your question. No I have not seen anyone paint women as a whole with an enlighten brush. Well except for one poster who was called down by a lot of the women on TAM for her attack on men.
> 
> So if you can provide some links to where this is being done to who that it's systemic here, please do.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm questioning your like of said post. And you've admitted in your response that it's happened. No due diligence on my part required.
Click to expand...

Oh good grief. I have been here since 2011. In all that time there has been one (1, ONE) female poster who went on an anti-male (aka painting all women as enlightened) freak out. She was 9+ months pregnant and losing it. We all called her down... yes the women on TAM called her down and told her that she was out of line.

You said that it’s happened here often. One thread does not equal often.


----------



## Faithful Wife

I don't see it either Ele, and I'd be happy to see a link to a post that is an example, but haven't gotten one.


----------



## RandomDude

People hold themselves to lower moral standards when they are able to escape the consequences of their actions.


----------



## RandomDude

Kitt said:


> How is your daughter? Do you have a good relationship with your ex wife? Im sorry, but I'm new...just trying to get where you are coming from though I get a lot of what you are saying as I lived in LA for a while and I was horrified. Do you think your chivalry is shaped by your exes and your place of residence?


I am very proud of my daughter, she's the best of us and none of the worst. Both ex and I love her dearly, and she's always been the one to keep me going. Ex-wife and I have reconciled as friends but nothing more.

My chivalry? What? I'm not chivalrous! What you talking about? lol

But if you're talking about my expectations for women, yes ex-wife has ruined me somewhat. It's hard to allow myself to love a woman who blatantly admits part of the reason she loved me was my financial capability, when I had an ex that showed me that finances shouldn't get in the way of love.


----------



## zillard

Ele - I have mad respect for you. 

But the ladies forum has just as much misandry as the men's forum has misogyny.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

zillard said:


> Ele - I have mad respect for you.
> 
> But the ladies forum has just as much misandry as the men's forum has misogyny.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Does anyone seriously deny that?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EleGirl

zillard said:


> Ele - I have mad respect for you.
> 
> But the ladies forum has just as much misandry as the men's forum has misogyny.


I do not read every thread on the forum. So I guess I've missed it. 

My suggestion is that when you (or anyone) see something painting women with an enlightened brush, send me a PM or report the post and I will take care of it.

If you (or anyone) misandry or misogyny do the same thing. 

One thing we can do on TAM is to point it out and put a stop to it when it occurs.


----------



## Kitt

RandomDude said:


> I am very proud of my daughter, she's the best of us and none of the worst. Both ex and I love her dearly, and she's always been the one to keep me going. Ex-wife and I have reconciled as friends but nothing more.
> 
> My chivalry? What? I'm not chivalrous! What you talking about? lol
> 
> But if you're talking about my expectations for women, yes ex-wife has ruined me somewhat. It's hard to allow myself to love a woman who blatantly admits part of the reason she loved me was my financial capability, when I had an ex that showed me that finances shouldn't get in the way of love.


Loving you for financial capability doesn't compute in my world.....sorry you had to go through that! :frown2:


----------



## Faithful Wife

zillard said:


> Does anyone seriously deny that?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Example thread or post?


----------



## zillard

EleGirl said:


> I do not read every thread on the forum. So I guess I've missed it.
> 
> My suggestion is that when you (or anyone) see something painting women with an enlightened brush, send me a PM or report the post and I will take care of it.
> 
> If you (or anyone) misandry or misogyny do the same thing.
> 
> One thing we can do on TAM is to point it out and put a stop to it when it occurs.


I'm thankful that most posts of that nature (and from man or woman is same nature) are self correcting. Women call out women, men call out men. One of the reasons I like TAM.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## RandomDude

Kitt said:


> Loving you for financial capability doesn't compute in my world.....sorry you had to go through that! :frown2:


It's normal in my city and in many cultures. Most men in my city have adapted to it, by accepting it, and expecting it. They embrace it in fact. In fact, women in my family also told me the same thing; focus on finances, love comes with money, etc etc. When I met my ex-wife I was blown away.

If anything I'm annoyed that ex-wife ruined me, as I wouldn't have so much trouble finding a new partner if it wasn't for being spoiled by her. I've half-accepted it, as I've come to understand material girls through my experience with ex-GF, but I also realised I'll never stop comparing women to my ex unless they prove to me they are also non-materialist.

Anyway, a little off-topic now, back to chivalry. FK chivalry!


----------



## Kitt

RandomDude said:


> It's normal in my city and in many cultures. Most men in my city have adapted to it, by accepting it, and expecting it. They embrace it in fact. In fact, women in my family also told me the same thing; focus on finances, love comes with money, etc etc. When I met my ex-wife I was blown away.
> 
> If anything I'm annoyed that ex-wife ruined me, as I wouldn't have so much trouble finding a new partner if it wasn't for being spoiled by her. I've half-accepted it, as I've come to understand material girls through my experience with ex-GF, but I also realised I'll never stop comparing women to my ex unless they prove to me they are also non-materialist.
> 
> Anyway, a little off-topic now, back to chivalry. FK chivalry!


Haha.....thanks for sticking to topic. Well, you do you and don't worry about us chivalry types. Obviously not your thing and that is ok, but it is a way of life for many of us who aren't jaded by bad experiences. Some of us who aren't materialistic gold diggers appreciate men who know how to have manners and treat us like ladies. Maybe you could move if your population is so corrupted....I have lived all over the world and never noticed any culture except maybe L.A. in the USA being like you describe....And if that is where you live, yikes! >
Anyway, thanks for the discourse. It helps me to understand your views better. I respect your disrespect for chivalry! :smile2:


----------



## zillard

Faithful Wife said:


> Did you just imply I'm not a "good human"?
> 
> I'm so confused by all of this. I simply don't understand the bashing of either gender by anyone, and that is all I have been getting at.
> 
> You obviously haven't seen it but I speak out on posts that bash men, too. Speaking out does not mean I'm personally offended whether men or women are bashed, it means I have conviction about the topic. The reason I have such conviction about it is that I do not see one gender as better or worse than the other and I am outspoken in general. I have chosen all of my words very deliberately in all of my posts, but if you want to label me as "not a good human" in spite of that, then oh well, I guess. I don't get it but whatevs.


Not a good human? Not at all. If think we agree to a point. I'm saying too many try to be a good man or good woman, while the definition of each inevitably differ, especially to the opposite sex. If instead we strive to be good humans, then chivalry is natural, whether it comes from Conan or my 9yo daughter.

Getting too distracted with male this female that dilutes the humanity of it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## RandomDude

Kitt said:


> Haha.....thanks for sticking to topic. Well, you do you and don't worry about us chivalry types. Obviously not your thing and that is ok, but it is a way of life for many of us who aren't jaded by bad experiences. Some of us who aren't materialistic gold diggers appreciate men who know how to have manners and treat us like ladies. Maybe you could move if your population is so corrupted....I have lived all over the world and never noticed any culture except maybe L.A. in the USA being like you describe....And if that is where you live, yikes! >
> Anyway, thanks for the discourse. It helps me to understand your views better. I respect your disrespect for chivalry! :smile2:


I'm a cultural relativist, which is also a cultural trait, so I wouldn't say I look down on chivalrous types, I just don't believe in it. I believe in courtesy only, I still hold the door for folks if I'm the first one in, it's rude to slam it on people's faces male or female. I also invoke "ladies first", mostly to get a good view (hehe). I am not violent towards women and always protective, but this is more a common male instinct then anything.

I don't open the car door or pull out the seat however, meh, women are capable of doing that themselves. So all in all I do try to be nice, but sometimes my good deeds are punished, such as when feminist women get insulted if I hold the door when I'm just being courteous pffft.


----------



## Kitt

RandomDude said:


> I'm a cultural relativist, which is also a cultural trait, so I wouldn't say I look down on chivalrous types, I just don't believe in it. I believe in courtesy only, I still hold the door for folks if I'm the first one in, it's rude to slam it on people's faces male or female. I also invoke "ladies first", mostly to get a good view (hehe). I am not violent towards women and always protective, but this is more a common male instinct then anything.
> 
> I don't open the car door or pull out the seat however, meh, women are capable of doing that themselves. So all in all I do try to be nice, but sometimes my good deeds are punished, such as when feminist women get insulted if I hold the door when I'm just being courteous pffft.


IRL you and I would be friends! Those women who reject good manners aren't feminists, they are *******s! :wink2:


----------



## RandomDude

Feminism inspires both haters as well as idealists, so I can't deny that they were feminists. I mentioned before I believe in equal opportunity and meritocracy, but that's it. Superiority, bias, and rights imposing on others I can't stand.


----------



## Kitt

RandomDude said:


> Feminism inspires both haters as well as idealists, so I can't deny that they were feminists. I mentioned before I believe in equal opportunity and meritocracy, but that's it. Superiority, bias, and rights imposing on others I can't stand.


Exactly, down with Patriarchy! > Jk....jk....Perspective is everything.....just try to be happy and not let politics and gender wars and ideologies make your life more complicated than it has to be. I'm not trying to impose my ideas on you as I'm sure you are not on me....I'm merely saying that some person is going to be unlike anyone you have ever met before and not have the limitations of your exes...we aren't all alike as you know! Thanks for the conversation and being respectful! You were deeper than I thought initially.


----------



## zillard

Opening doors, offering jacket, pulling out chair, walking on the street side of the sidewalk - is that in any way gender related? 

Historically, yes. And those who have a problem with it see it as a gender issue (and then some). See it as an inequality issue. 

I don't agree. It's about courtesy. As a man, I've actually accepted a jacket offered by a woman who wasn't cold when I was. I was appreciative. Felt no less a man, and had no influence on intimacy later. 

As a father, I know I'm bigger and stronger than my daughter so will suck it up even if I'm cold. Gladly, without complaint. 

Now we have socially acceptable lesbian couples. I highly doubt chivalry does NOT happen there often. I've seen it. 

I held the door open at a gas station today for an elderly man. He wasn't insulted. He was surprised (in my region heavily tattooed men are not seen as respectful), stopped outside and made a point to communicate his appreciation to me. 

His doing so... that was chivalry also.


----------



## RandomDude

Kitt said:


> Exactly, down with Patriarchy! > Jk....jk....Perspective is everything.....just try to be happy and not let politics and gender wars and ideologies make your life more complicated than it has to be. I'm not trying to impose my ideas on you as I'm sure you are not on me....I'm merely saying that some person is going to be unlike anyone you have ever met before and not have the limitations of your exes...we aren't all alike as you know! Thanks for the conversation and being respectful! You were deeper than I thought initially.


Why thank you


----------



## lucy999

Faithful Wife said:


> Several dates later, I brought it up and said "um....that night when you opened up your coat to me...I accidentally brushed my hand across your peen....did you feel that?"


You would have secured another date with me merely by using the word peen.:grin2:


----------



## Wolf1974

Faithful Wife said:


> Did you just imply I'm not a "good human"?
> 
> I'm so confused by all of this. I simply don't understand the bashing of either gender by anyone, and that is all I have been getting at.
> 
> You obviously haven't seen it but I speak out on posts that bash men, too. Speaking out does not mean I'm personally offended whether men or women are bashed, it means I have conviction about the topic. The reason I have such conviction about it is that I do not see one gender as better or worse than the other and I am outspoken in general. I have chosen all of my words very deliberately in all of my posts, but if you want to label me as "not a good human" in spite of that, then oh well, I guess. I don't get it but whatevs.


Calling some out on bad behavior such as using guys for money or guys who use for sex isn't calling out a whole gender. It's just calling out those who do wrong. That's all I see most, including you here, doing.


----------



## Wolf1974

Faithful Wife said:


> Example thread or post?


Their was a thread recently on gaming men in the women's lounge

Another was several threads about using sex to manipulate husbands in the sex in marriage section

Was a couple threads by lady miso about sexual denial and outright abuse of her spouse.

Come on FW. While we don't always see eye to eye are you really and honestly going to say that men don't ever get bashed here? That crass **** isn't said to both genders? I have see you personally call out this behavior before so how can you say you don't see it?

When I told you In another thread that I was told once by a long time female poster here that the death of my OWN daughter couldn't be understood by me, because I was a man, like my x wife experienced you said that what she said was wrong. You are the ONLY person who ever said that to me. That thread was since taken down several years ago had several hundred posts, men and women, moderators...no one said anything to this poster ....not one word

This place has changed in the several years I have been observing and then posting. This gender bash nonsense has almost become the norm for every thread when their is a disagreement even when it has nothing to do with gender...at all

I, and some others have tried to call this out. I have seen you also do this. So I just can't understand how you say you don't see it


----------



## Constable Odo

Wolf1974 said:


> are you really and honestly going to say that men don't ever get bashed here?


lol do you seriously expect to get an admission there is a bias? 

you have to think like a woman. It isn't "bias", it is "just compensation to right centuries of wrong perpetrated on women by the patriarchal establishment."

What's even more choice is when you meet these types of women in positions of authority, counselling, or even matchmaking.


----------



## NobodySpecial

EleGirl said:


> I do not recall what the young college woman said to Congress.
> The post I was replying to stated that she was talking about “women who say they want to be treated as equals and think chivalry is a sign of disrespect”. She was not talking about one young college woman.
> 
> While on the service that makes sense, it’s not going to happen. Sex is too strong a drive for humans, men and women.
> 
> We have a choice as a society, we can help the poor not get pregnant or we have support all their children who usually grow up to be just more poor people who are stuck in the same quagmire.
> 
> Did you know that drugs like Viagra are paid for by Medicaid and other medical plans that are subsidized by the federal and state governments? Why is birth control for women a hot topic but paying for drugs that help a man get it up and keep it up are not?????
> 
> What benefit is it to society to pay to help some old guy get an erection? None at all.
> 
> What benefit is it to society to pay to help poor women prevent pregnancies? Many. For example right now we, as a society can hardly provide the poor we have. We also do not have an economy that produce jobs that many of poor used to have. We shipped all those jobs off shore so that the rich and get richer.
> 
> If we do not provide birth control to poor women, we will become like 3rd world countries with children living on the street because their poor families threw them out. Before we had welfare and birth control, our big cities were had hundreds of thousands of homeless children from about age 4 up.. Children with no parent in site. That’s where the orphans trains came from.. a way to ship all the street urchins out west to get them out of the city. Do we go back to that? Have you ever lived in a society like that? I have. It’s not a nice place to life at all.



Speak it!


----------



## SimplyAmorous

RandomDude said:


> I think it has to do with expectations really, like, ex-wife didn't expect me to be a sole provider, didn't demand it, didn't look down on me if I wasn't one, but I became one anyway as I wanted our daughter to receive full attention in her early years (I did have problems with ex-wife's dependence when daughter started schooling however, as we only had 1 child)
> 
> *With you, I doubt your husband gives a crap  You're soulmates, and happy living the traditional lifestyle. Besides you had your hands full with plenty of kids no?*
> 
> Ex-GF wanted this, wanted that, and gave me the impression that I was being used. Never liked the vibe she gave me. Ex-wife I knew from the start that she had zero financial standards, I didn't have the "used" vibe at all. Ex-GF completely different story, I sucked it up anyway, as ex-wife was very rare, and materialistic women are the norm where I live.


Yes Random.. we much appreciate the lifestyle we have lived.....it's on both ends here.. my Husband would defend it.... it has afforded us more time together, neither of us are materialistic...there are certain things we both worked hard to accomplish.. living in the country & being debt free were the highest on that list .. but we never skimp on family vacations..

Really... I take care of all the money...it's less for him to think about.. . it's always been this way... he knows full well if things get tight he wouldn't be ABLE to STOP ME FROM WORKING .. I'd demand it !!.. so really .. . our lifestyle is dependent on me *not *being a wasteful woman.



Wolf1974 said:


> This is no heartburn for me at all. I learned the simplest solution to weed this out and have never had it happen since. I mean unless you kinda know the date beforehand and know you get along I think dinner is a terrible first date. Not the money but being locked into an hour for dinner with someone you recognize in the first 5 minutes you have zero interest in would be horrible.


 I was just reading an article today on a AARP magazine about online Dating Fraud.. I think they called it "ROMANCE FRAUD"... it's on the rise...unscrupulous people preying on the "lonely in love" - at their most vulnerable.. feed them lines to gain their trust while showing high interest in them..seeking private information..... how this one woman .. 57 , after her husband died....let her guard down.. started to trust a man online..he seemed different from the others...

This man, crazy how he managed this.. but literally he swindled like almost $300,000 from this woman without ever meeting her.. all his excuses.. she bought them.. it was Unbelievable!! MY mouth was hanging open ...









Asking for any drop of money without meeting a person.. are you kidding me ...(I wouldn't even ask if I knew them, I'd have to be ready to live under a bridge!)......that would be like thunderous waving red flags ..DROP THEM IMMEDIATELY... 

It just blew my mind how anyone could fall for that.. over & over.. the excuses.... she didn't tell any of her friends/ family members she was giving this mystery man money. 

We all have to be vigilant out there & protect ourselves.. The dating scene sounds just plain "wicked" to me.. sorting through all the manipulators or who wants to use who for what.


----------



## EleGirl

Constable Odo said:


> lol do you seriously expect to get an admission there is a bias?
> 
> you have to think like a woman. It isn't "bias", it is "just compensation to right centuries of wrong perpetrated on women by the patriarchal establishment."
> 
> What's even more choice is when you meet these types of women in positions of authority, counselling, or even matchmaking.


If you are going to make accusations then please back them up. Please provide links to posts in which women expresses hate for all men (not the one guy who did them wrong).


----------



## ConanHub

MountainRunner said:


> Thank you my friend. I was gonna PM ya "the rest of the story" but I believe you can't receive PMs from members?


I get PMs but for some reason I'm having trouble getting one to you.

I'll check my settings later but I do get PMs.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 2ntnuf

ConanHub said:


> *I get PMs* but for some reason I'm having trouble getting one to you.
> 
> I'll check my settings later but I do get PMs.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You get pms? huh...I'd have never thunk it. >


----------



## Faithful Wife

Wolf1974 said:


> Their was a thread recently on gaming men in the women's lounge
> 
> Another was several threads about using sex to manipulate husbands in the sex in marriage section
> 
> Was a couple threads by lady miso about sexual denial and outright abuse of her spouse.
> 
> Come on FW. While we don't always see eye to eye are you really and honestly going to say that men don't ever get bashed here? That crass **** isn't said to both genders? I have see you personally call out this behavior before so how can you say you don't see it?
> 
> When I told you In another thread that I was told once by a long time female poster here that the death of my OWN daughter couldn't be understood by me, because I was a man, like my x wife experienced you said that what she said was wrong. You are the ONLY person who ever said that to me. That thread was since taken down several years ago had several hundred posts, men and women, moderators...no one said anything to this poster ....not one word
> 
> This place has changed in the several years I have been observing and then posting. This gender bash nonsense has almost become the norm for every thread when their is a disagreement even when it has nothing to do with gender...at all
> 
> I, and some others have tried to call this out. I have seen you also do this. So I just can't understand how you say you don't see it


The gaming thread was opened in response to stuff on the red pill thread, where several men were telling some of us ladies that they would love to be gamed. We challenged them and said yeah right, if we open a post about it, it will get shut down and you guys won't like it. However, that isn't what happened. The guys did participate and enjoy it. The examples of game given in it were mostly by me and Brigit, and not we were not bashing men. My first post in that thread was to say that what I had learned about game was that you can game someone into bed or out of money or gifts, but you can't game them into liking you or respecting you. I was actually trying to show how easy it is to game anyone....again, in response to men saying (on the red pill thread) that they game women and the women are so stupid they don't even know it is happening. My points were (and I said it over and over) that it is easy to manipulate people, yes including men, so those red pill guys are fooling themselves by thinking they are somehow smarter than women when they game women. Feel free to go and actually read that thread....it sounds like you didn't. Or if you did, please point out which posts were man bashing. 

Men talk about gaming women all the time here, via the red pill crap, which was where that entire discussion started.

That's the only example you have?

What threads about using sex to manipulate men are you talking about in the sex section? I have never seen one, please show me.

Lady Miso has been blasted by women and men here alike. She only has a very few posts, she is not a big presence here. And she gets mocked and scorned by nearly everyone.

When I call out bad behavior of man bashing, it is typically for doing things like saying "men do this" instead of saying "some men do this". When I see it I call it out, but no I don't see a blatant constant bashing of men. You still have no provided any examples that I consider evidence of it either.

Yes I was shocked about what you were told in the thread about the death of your daughter and I still am shocked by it...whoever that woman was, I have no idea what she could be thinking, the comment is so cruel and stupid (and it still makes me very sad for you, I am so sorry about your loss).

But no...I do not see rampant man bashing. That's why I asked for examples. To me it is ironic that you brought up the gaming thread...because the progression of the thread coming to life started with me trying to get men to stop bashing women here. And the gaming thread ended up being mostly cute, was read by lots of men, and there was a lot of great feedback on both sides. In fact, the main revelation I made in that thread is to expose how I have gamed my way in the past getting women to show me their boobs.


----------



## Faithful Wife

lucy999 said:


> You would have secured another date with me merely by using the word peen.:grin2:


I didn't actually say peen to him...that is just my default word for it here, because it cracks me up to type it every time.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Anyway...sorry for the threadjack. Wolf, if you want we can open a who bashes who more thread, I guess. Thanks for bantering.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Constable Odo said:


> lol do you seriously expect to get an admission there is a bias?
> 
> you have to think like a woman. *It isn't "bias", it is "just compensation to right centuries of wrong perpetrated on women by the patriarchal establishment*."
> 
> What's even more choice is when you meet these types of women in positions of authority, counselling, or even matchmaking.


I'm tired of being insulted by you indirectly like this. If you have a problem with me, go ahead and say it. I have never said anything even close to the bolded statement in your quote, nor do I even think anything like it.


----------



## EleGirl

Wolf1974 said:


> Their was a thread recently on gaming men in the women's lounge


That thread was about women flirting with men. We all know that if you go out to some place like a club most men and women there are playing a game.. Flirting. There was not one malicious comment about men in it. Not one woman expressed hate for men. The last few pages of the thread are women talking about how they love their husbands.

Now compare that to all the Red Pill stuff here. The main book suggest for men here is MMSLP. It tells men that their wife is replaceable. He has to let her know that she can be dumped at any time.. to put fear in her. The book is full of comments like women lose value with time. See the Red Pill thread. Quotes from the book were posted. Most of the men here have no problem with the hate for women taught in that book. We often see men here telling other men these same things. Red Pill is about how to use women for sex and throw them away. 



Wolf1974 said:


> Another was several threads about using sex to manipulate husbands in the sex in marriage section


I looked up thread in Sex In Marriage with “withholding” in the title. Here are the last 3 threads in date order, newest to oldest. Oldest is in 11/2014.

1.	A thread by a man asking “does withholding sex from your spouse as punishment help or hurt the situation?” There is no clue if he was thinking of withold to punish his wife for her wihthold.. or if he was thinking that she was punishing him. But I would think that if he was asking about her withholding, he’s know whether or not it was effective with him. You would no need to ask. So I think that he was thinking of doing it. There not anti-male hate or misandry in the thread.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/266962-withholding-sex.html

2.	A thread by a woman whose husband withholds sex to punish her. He outright says that’s what he is doing. There was no anti-male or misandry in the thread.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...35297-withholding-sex-brilliant-childish.html

3.	A thread in which a woman asked if withholding sex is an acceptable thing to do. I do not think that there was one woman on that thread that told her it was ok. She was basically told that if she is using withhold to manipulate, it’s wrong .. by the women and men on the thread. 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/224946-husband-withholding-intimacy-sex.html



Wolf1974 said:


> Was a couple threads by lady miso about sexual denial and outright abuse of her spouse.


If you go look at her threads you will see that most if not all the TAM women and men called her down and told her that she is sick. I have no idea why she was not banned to be honest. She advocates for a marriage structure that is pretty sick. Her blog is very upsetting. Not one woman here on TAM is responsible for what she advocates.

Tell me, to the women on TAM get any high fives for call out someone like this and telling them that they are abusive and wrong? Or are we all responsible for what one woman said?


Wolf1974 said:


> When I told you In another thread that I was told once by a long time female poster here that the death of my OWN daughter couldn't be understood by me, because I was a man, like my x wife experienced you said that what she said was wrong. You are the ONLY person who ever said that to me. That thread was since taken down several years ago had several hundred posts, men and women, moderators...no one said anything to this poster ....not one word


I’m sorry that someone said that to you. It’s mean and uncalled for. I'm also sorry that no one else supported you against that poster. This is an example of a woman showing misandry. It’s disgusting. I’d love to know who posted that.


----------



## EleGirl

Maybe we need a thread here on TAM to talk about the topic of one gender bashing the other on TAM.

It's a thread jack here.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Ele I think that's a great idea. We can then post examples of bashing on both sides and call it out.


----------



## RandomDude

Back on topic...


----------



## Wolf1974

Faithful Wife said:


> The gaming thread was opened in response to stuff on the red pill thread, where several men were telling some of us ladies that they would love to be gamed. We challenged them and said yeah right, if we open a post about it, it will get shut down and you guys won't like it. However, that isn't what happened. The guys did participate and enjoy it. The examples of game given in it were mostly by me and Brigit, and not we were not bashing men. My first post in that thread was to say that what I had learned about game was that you can game someone into bed or out of money or gifts, but you can't game them into liking you or respecting you. I was actually trying to show how easy it is to game anyone....again, in response to men saying (on the red pill thread) that they game women and the women are so stupid they don't even know it is happening. My points were (and I said it over and over) that it is easy to manipulate people, yes including men, so those red pill guys are fooling themselves by thinking they are somehow smarter than women when they game women. Feel free to go and actually read that thread....it sounds like you didn't. Or if you did, please point out which posts were man bashing.
> 
> Men talk about gaming women all the time here, via the red pill crap, which was where that entire discussion started.
> 
> That's the only example you have?
> 
> What threads about using sex to manipulate men are you talking about in the sex section? I have never seen one, please show me.
> 
> Lady Miso has been blasted by women and men here alike. She only has a very few posts, she is not a big presence here. And she gets mocked and scorned by nearly everyone.
> 
> When I call out bad behavior of man bashing, it is typically for doing things like saying "men do this" instead of saying "some men do this". When I see it I call it out, but no I don't see a blatant constant bashing of men. You still have no provided any examples that I consider evidence of it either.
> 
> Yes I was shocked about what you were told in the thread about the death of your daughter and I still am shocked by it...whoever that woman was, I have no idea what she could be thinking, the comment is so cruel and stupid (and it still makes me very sad for you, I am so sorry about your loss).
> 
> But no...I do not see rampant man bashing. That's why I asked for examples. To me it is ironic that you brought up the gaming thread...because the progression of the thread coming to life started with me trying to get men to stop bashing women here. And the gaming thread ended up being mostly cute, was read by lots of men, and there was a lot of great feedback on both sides. In fact, the main revelation I made in that thread is to expose how I have gamed my way in the past getting women to show me their boobs.



I listed several examples. If you don't see it nothing more I can say about it. Very disappointing honestly don't know what else I can say it's here all the time and I have seen you personally fight against it, same as Nora Jane, myself, anon pink, SA and some others. If your stance is that women here are bashed and men aren't.....okie dokie then


----------



## Wolf1974

EleGirl said:


> That thread was about women flirting with men. We all know that if you go out to some place like a club most men and women there are playing a game.. Flirting. There was not one malicious comment about men in it. Not one woman expressed hate for men. The last few pages of the thread are women talking about how they love their husbands.
> 
> Now compare that to all the Red Pill stuff here. The main book suggest for men here is MMSLP. It tells men that their wife is replaceable. He has to let her know that she can be dumped at any time.. to put fear in her. The book is full of comments like women lose value with time. See the Red Pill thread. Quotes from the book were posted. Most of the men here have no problem with the hate for women taught in that book. We often see men here telling other men these same things. Red Pill is about how to use women for sex and throw them away.
> 
> 
> 
> I looked up thread in Sex In Marriage with “withholding” in the title. Here are the last 3 threads in date order, newest to oldest. Oldest is in 11/2014.
> 
> 1.	A thread by a man asking “does withholding sex from your spouse as punishment help or hurt the situation?” There is no clue if he was thinking of withold to punish his wife for her wihthold.. or if he was thinking that she was punishing him. But I would think that if he was asking about her withholding, he’s know whether or not it was effective with him. You would no need to ask. So I think that he was thinking of doing it. There not anti-male hate or misandry in the thread.
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/266962-withholding-sex.html
> 
> 2.	A thread by a woman whose husband withholds sex to punish her. He outright says that’s what he is doing. There was no anti-male or misandry in the thread.
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...35297-withholding-sex-brilliant-childish.html
> 
> 3.	A thread in which a woman asked if withholding sex is an acceptable thing to do. I do not think that there was one woman on that thread that told her it was ok. She was basically told that if she is using withhold to manipulate, it’s wrong .. by the women and men on the thread.
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/224946-husband-withholding-intimacy-sex.html
> 
> 
> 
> If you go look at her threads you will see that most if not all the TAM women and men called her down and told her that she is sick. I have no idea why she was not banned to be honest. She advocates for a marriage structure that is pretty sick. Her blog is very upsetting. Not one woman here on TAM is responsible for what she advocates.
> 
> Tell me, to the women on TAM get any high fives for call out someone like this and telling them that they are abusive and wrong? Or are we all responsible for what one woman said?
> 
> 
> I’m sorry that someone said that to you. It’s mean and uncalled for. I'm also sorry that no one else supported you against that poster. This is an example of a woman showing misandry. It’s disgusting. *I’d love to know who posted that.*




You can PM me then. I won't do it in open forum and get banned


----------



## Faithful Wife

Wolf I don't want to threadjack further...but I'll open a new thread. 

Peace, brutha!


----------



## EllisRedding

lucy999 said:


> You would have secured another date with me merely by using the word peen.:grin2:


I am more concerned about why someone would be commenting about your peen on a date ... :surprise:


----------



## EllisRedding

MountainRunner said:


> So is my wife. She is 100% reliant upon my income...and I have NEVER EVER used that against her. the binary thinking that a mate must either be completely self sufficient lest they be demoted to "dependent status" is simply silly.


Same here. It wasn't always that way, it wasn't even until the last few years she started working less, and the past few months she officially became a SAHM. It works out that financially there is no need for her to work anymore, it would actually cost us for her to work when you factor in having to pay a nanny. And you know what, it is worth every cent, as my wife is 100% responsible for my kids while I am at work, not some stranger.


----------



## ConanHub

2ntnuf said:


> You get pms? huh...I'd have never thunk it. >


You dork! LOL! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## WorkingWife

EleGirl said:


> Wow, what a lot of disrespectful judgments.
> 
> A person has to be on welfare for their birth control pills to be paid for. All other women pay for their own birth control.


I am not _*judging*_ anyone. I did not say it is right or wrong to ask for someone outside your relationship to pay for your birth control, nor did I say it is right or wrong to be bothered by a man holding a door open for you.

*I'm merely pointing out that yeah, I believe there are a lot of mixed messages in our society regarding what "equal rights for women" means. I can understand why men are confused.*

And self proclaimed feminists ARE asking for others to foot the bill for their birth control:
In Context: Sandra Fluke on contraceptives and women's health | PolitiFact

And our government has responded by mandating that 1)People must have health insurance, and 2) That insurance must cover birth control with no co-pays even though other types of medications may come with hefty co-pays or not be covered at all.
Birth Control Is Free Under Obamacare, But Not Everyone Got The Memo

Welfare (medicaid) is actually the one type of new insurance that is not required, by law, to cover birth control:
Birth Control Coverage and Health Care Reform: FAQ


----------



## EleGirl

If you want to discuss birth control and government spending money on it, please start a new thread on the topic.

I've asked that thread jacks stop. This is a thread jack.


----------



## RandomDude

From chivalry... to obamacare!

Wow!


----------



## NotEasy

Ok, back to chivalry, sort of.

After my sitting on the porch tease, I noticed my daughter seemed to be using my tease to her advantage. She sends about 50 text per day, she will send text from the bedroom to the lounge. But she said if a boy texts that he is waiting outside, he fails. She only wants a boy with the chivalry/courage to knock on the door.


----------



## RandomDude

Pikes and muskets... the devil's weapons!


----------



## EleGirl

NotEasy said:


> Ok, back to chivalry, sort of.
> 
> After my sitting on the porch tease, I noticed my daughter seemed to be using my tease to her advantage. She sends about 50 text per day, she will send text from the bedroom to the lounge. But she said if a boy texts that he is waiting outside, he fails. She only wants a boy with the chivalry/courage to knock on the door.


What is a "porch tease"?

I think that expecting a date to come to the door it not isolated to chivalry. Courage is the better you for sure. Not sure it's wise to date a guy who is afraid to come to the door or feels that he's a rebel and so up your (to you and your family.)


----------



## RandomDude

Ey? Meh... I would have replied "Errr, it's either that or slamming the door in her face" but thats just me


----------



## NotEasy

EleGirl said:


> What is a "porch tease"?
> 
> I think that expecting a date to come to the door it not isolated to chivalry. Courage is the better you for sure. Not sure it's wise to date a guy who is afraid to come to the door or feels that he's a rebel and so up your (to you and your family.)


It was my tease where I am sitting on the front porch, from my post of 2 days ago.



NotEasy said:


> Reminds of a piece of chivalry I tease my daughter with. I'll be waiting on the front porch carving notches in the shotgun accross my knees, guarding the castle. Any boy who comes has to swim the moat then get past me to the princess. She now reminds me we don't have a front porch, a moat or a shotgun.
> But the basic filter of needing the courage to meet dad first is good.
> She already knows anyone who honks the horn from outside does not pass.


Wow this thread got active, nearly 200 posts since then.

Agreed this is not just chivalry, it is also courage and politeness. I think my daughter is more interested in his courage.

These days I think the death of chivalry is partly due to lack of courage. Some men are scared of getting a rude reply when opening a door for a women etc. 

And thinking back to when I was dating, I definitely wanted to meet the parents. They give hints to what she may be like underneath, and perhaps what she will be like in 20 years. Dates will put on a show, parents might give another view. So again not just chivalry, also information gathering. And it shows she is serious.


----------



## WorkingWife

EleGirl said:


> If you want to discuss birth control and government spending money on it, please start a new thread on the topic.
> 
> I've asked that thread jacks stop. This is a thread jack.


Sorry! I was not trying to jack the thread, just trying to give examples of mixed messages regarding chivalry and female independence, which I thought was the topic.


----------



## EleGirl

WorkingWife said:


> Sorry! I was not trying to jack the thread, just trying to give examples of mixed messages regarding chivalry and female independence, which I thought was the topic.


Ok

How does providing birth control pills to some women free or low cost contribute to the death of Gentlemen/Chivalry? I don't see it.


----------



## 2ntnuf

EleGirl said:


> Ok
> 
> How does providing birth control pills to some women free or low cost contribute to the death of Gentlemen/Chivalry? I don't see it.


It takes away his opportunity to be chivalrous and provide for his and her protection. 

Huh? Huh? Pretty good huh? >

I have no idea.


----------



## EleGirl

2ntnuf said:


> It takes away his opportunity to be chivalrous and provide for his and her protection.
> 
> Huh? Huh? Pretty good huh? >
> 
> I have no idea.


You are on a roll tonight


----------



## WorkingWife

EleGirl said:


> Ok
> 
> How does providing birth control pills to some women free or low cost contribute to the death of Gentlemen/Chivalry? I don't see it.


In a couple ways:

1. It is definitely part of the death of chivalry, IMO, that men will have sex with women without making sure they are on birth control or taking care of that with a condom and providing that if necessary. And a death of the expectation of chivalry in women to have sex with men who would do that. 

But 2. Getting back to my original point - I believe the OP, or someone early in the thread, said that the are afraid to do chivalrous things for women like open doors or pay for meals because some women are actually offended by these gestures because they think it diminishes their independence (paraphrasing). And people talked about the mixed messages they get from society in general. 

In my first hand experience, the women I know who insist they are independent and find these gestures offensive, are the very same women who claim with a straight face that someone else should pay for their birth control and OG/GYN visits and other things *because they are women.* 

I just offer it up as an example of the mixed message. Which is it? Are women equal to men deserving no special treatment because they are female, just as capable of paying their way in the world, or are they so dependent they need someone else to pay for their birth control?

BTW - Note that the ACA does *not *cover contraceptions for men and none of the women who lobbied for "free" female BC lobbied asked for that.

I just think there are a lot of mixed messages in our culture about whether or not men and women should have different roles and expectations, and I think some forms of chivalry have largely been replaced with government programs. So is that type of chivalry dead or has it just morphed to no longer be that Man's role?

The birth control was just one example that came to mind, but think or fatherhood in general.

The day of "shotgun weddings" seems pretty much over. At least where I live. When a man does get a woman pregnant and not take responsibility, no one seems surprised or expects him to anymore. But just what, 20 years ago? - getting a girl pregnant was a huge concern/ no no. That cultural norm encouraged the chivalry of men not recklessly knocking women up. A gentleman just did not do that. Now? That seems to be changing.


----------



## Faithful Wife

EllisRedding said:


> I am more concerned about why someone would be commenting about your peen on a date ... :surprise:


Seriously Ellis? You obviously didn't actually read what I wrote, but you're going to take a jab at me as if I did something inappropriate or weird? Thanks a lot for misrepresenting me and then taking a jab, even though I didn't do what you implied.


----------



## ConanHub

Faithful Wife said:


> Seriously Ellis? You obviously didn't actually read what I wrote, but you're going to take a jab at me as if I did something inappropriate or weird? Thanks a lot for misrepresenting me and then taking a jab, even though I didn't do what you implied.


Peen grabber!! LOL! Secrets out now!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Faithful Wife

That's what hubby called me. Ha!

But as I said above...I didn't actually "comment about his peen on a date" and I would appreciate not being misrepresented just so someone can take a jab at me.


----------



## EleGirl

The definition of chivalry is: the medieval knightly system with its religious, moral, and social code; the combination of qualities expected of an ideal knight, especially courage, honor, courtesy, justice, and a readiness to help the weak.

The order of nights had written codes that they followed. 

So what exactly are we talking about on this thread? Where is the list of what chivalry is and what is not TODAY? Or how about even 50 years ago when I was a teen and the world was very different than it is now? You will not find that list.. well except in perhaps Amy Vanderbilt. The best I can come up with is having integrity and treating others with respect and common courtesy. 




WorkingWife said:


> 1. It is definitely part of the death of chivalry, IMO, that men will have sex with women without making sure they are on birth control or taking care of that with a condom and providing that if necessary. And a death of the expectation of chivalry in women to have sex with men who would do that.


Men using birth control has never been part of any chivalry code. Birth control as almost always been left up to the woman. Before the early 1900’s the average woman had 8 pregnancies in her lifetime. Where were those condoms that could have prevented a lot of those pregnancies? Women as a whole did not expect men to wear condoms. 
That’s why STD’s have always been ramped in the human population.


WorkingWife said:


> But 2. Getting back to my original point - I believe the OP, or someone early in the thread, said that the are afraid to do chivalrous things for women like open doors or pay for meals because some women are actually offended by these gestures because they think it diminishes their independence (paraphrasing). And people talked about the mixed messages they get from society in general.


The above has zero, zilch to do with birth control and its effect on chivalry.



WorkingWife said:


> In my first hand experience, the women I know who insist they are independent and find these gestures offensive, are the very same women who claim with a straight face that someone else should pay for their birth control and OG/GYN visits and other things *because they are women.*


That is your personal experience. 
The only women I know who want free birth control and OB/GYN care for themselves are on welfare & destitute financially. The ones who are long-time welfare recipients (and not disabled) generally have little interest in any feminist ideas.

Except those in that group, all the other women I know pay for their own medical insurance and their own birth control (if they use BC) and they pay for their own medical care. This group of women would self-identify as feminist. IF they campaign for free/subsidized birth control and OB/GYN care, it’s to help the other group who cannot afford to take care of themselves. They are not asking for free anything for themselves. 

I guess if we combine the women you know and the ones I know, we can say that some women who self-identify as feminists, and don’t like chivalrous gestures want free birth control, OB/GYN, etc. for themselves. But far from all feminist women want this for themselves… they take care of themselves.


WorkingWife said:


> I just offer it up as an example of the mixed message. Which is it? Are women equal to men deserving no special treatment because they are female, just as capable of paying their way in the world, or are they so dependent they need someone else to pay for their birth control?


It’s not a mixed message. Women (or self-identified feminists) are not one big glob that think the same.... It’s a HUGE tent.

Chivalry and birth control can exist in the same environment. So they have nothing to do with each other.

Men get special treatment in that they get medications like Viagra, etc, implants, etc and their male medical care (prostate cancer, etc) for free if they are on some gov program. If they have insurance, their insurance covers these medications and medical needs according to their plan. 

So why is it wrong, or giving off mixed messages and killing chivalry for women to simply want the same treatment that men get? I don’t get it? And let’s not forget that women having birth control benefits men and all of society. (Men using pills to get a boner does not. – Though I do not begrudge them using the meds of they need them. They are human after all.)

Why aren’t those men who get Viagra and male medical care for free expected to pay their own way in the world? Why are they so dependent on someone else? Are they giving off mixed messages? Why are there no huge, outspoken groups trying to deny these men this medical care?




WorkingWife said:


> BTW - Note that the ACA does *not *cover contraceptions for men and none of the women who lobbied for "free" female BC lobbied asked for that.


You want women to campaign for men to get vasectomies? That would be quite a spectacle. I can only imaging the media and social outcry. “Feminist want to slice up our primates! Those evil feminists!” I can just hear it.

There is already work going on to change the ACA to cover vasectomies and some other male contraceptives. Everything I read says that it was an oversight. So why would they campaign for some that has a fix in the works?

The ACA actually encourages women to get their tubes tied and discourages men form taking responsibility for contraception. Tubal ligation is more invasive and more dangerous. 



WorkingWife said:


> I just think there are a lot of mixed messages in our culture about whether or not men and women should have different roles and expectations, and I think some forms of chivalry have largely been replaced with government programs. So is that type of chivalry dead or has it just morphed to no longer be that Man's role?


Sure there are mixed messages. Societies always have mixed messages. And I do think that there are more today because we are a society in transition. 

I do not see where the government has taken over chivalry. I’ve yet to see a government employee whose job it is to open doors for women, or throw their coats in mud puddles so that I don’t get my delicate tootsies muddy. Not where I live anyway. 



WorkingWife said:


> The birth control was just one example that came to mind, but think or fatherhood in general.


OK this is pages and pages long. I need to get to bed. You now change to topic from free birth control destroy chivalry to fatherhood and what? You are all over the place.


----------



## NotEasy

Faithful Wife said:


> Seriously Ellis? You obviously didn't actually read what I wrote, but you're going to take a jab at me as if I did something inappropriate or weird? Thanks a lot for misrepresenting me and then taking a jab, even though I didn't do what you implied.


I thought Ellis was joking. Not taking a jab.

My wife and I have a similar joke. Early on we were sitting together and she was talking to another female, in chinese. My chinese is limited, but I know 'big' 'nose' and 'him'. I also know they equate nose length with peen length. So I butted in with one of my longest chinese sentences "I have a big nose huh?". She went so many shades of red.


----------



## NotEasy

Dumb foreigner question, is ACA = "Affordable Care Act"? 

And is that the USA universal health care? Here we have Medicare that covers everyone and various private health insurances for those who can afford it. So I guess it is like our Medicare.


----------



## EleGirl

Personal said:


> Victorian era mythologising of chivalry aside, the list below covers what chivalry actually is.
> 
> *Ten Commandments of Chivalry*
> 
> 1. Thou shalt believe all that the Church teaches and thou shalt observe all its directions.
> 2. Thou shalt defend the Church.
> 3. Thou shalt respect all weaknesses, and shalt constitute thyself the defender of them.
> 4. Thou shalt love the country in which thou wast born.
> 5. Thou shalt not recoil before thine enemy.
> 6. Thou shalt make war against the infidel without cessation and without mercy.
> 7. Thou shalt perform scrupulously thy feudal duties, if they be not contrary to the laws of God
> 8. Thou shalt never lie, and shalt remain faithful to thy pledged word.
> 9. Thou shalt be generous, and give largesse to everyone.
> 10. Thou shalt be everywhere and always the champion of the Right and the Good against Injustice and Evil.
> Léon Gautier. Chivalry. trans. Henry Frith (New York: Crescent Books, 1989).p.26
> 
> Since I am an atheist, I don't think I'll be practicing chivalry anytime soon.


Darn.. it does not even mention opening doors and ordering at restaurants. >


----------



## RandomDude

Chivalry in the middle ages:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7j0V1AHvBU

But what is best in life? This:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PQ6335puOc

:grin2:


----------



## EleGirl

RandomDude said:


> Chivalry in the middle ages:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7j0V1AHvBU


Brings up a some good points... 



RandomDude said:


> But what is best in life? This:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PQ6335puOc
> 
> :grin2:


"The greatest pleasure is to vanquish your enemies and chase them before you, to rob them of their wealth and see those dear to them bathed in tears, to ride their horses and clasp to your bosom their wives and daughters."


----------



## RandomDude

EleGirl said:


> "The greatest pleasure is to vanquish your enemies and chase them before you, to rob them of their wealth and see those dear to them bathed in tears, to ride their horses and clasp to your bosom their wives and daughters."


Haha! One of the most brutal and hardcore barbarian quotes in history!!!

Couldn't resist in this thread in regards to chivalry


----------



## NotEasy

Personal said:


> Victorian era mythologising of chivalry aside, the list below covers what chivalry actually is.
> 
> *Ten Commandments of Chivalry*
> 
> 1. Thou shalt believe all that the Church teaches and thou shalt observe all its directions.
> 2. Thou shalt defend the Church.
> 3. Thou shalt respect all weaknesses, and shalt constitute thyself the defender of them.
> 4. Thou shalt love the country in which thou wast born.
> 5. Thou shalt not recoil before thine enemy.
> 6. Thou shalt make war against the infidel without cessation and without mercy.
> 7. Thou shalt perform scrupulously thy feudal duties, if they be not contrary to the laws of God
> 8. Thou shalt never lie, and shalt remain faithful to thy pledged word.
> 9. Thou shalt be generous, and give largesse to everyone.
> 10. Thou shalt be everywhere and always the champion of the Right and the Good against Injustice and Evil.
> Léon Gautier. Chivalry. trans. Henry Frith (New York: Crescent Books, 1989).p.26
> 
> Since I am an atheist, I don't think I'll be practicing chivalry anytime soon.


I am a christian I disagree with the first 2. 
Despite believing in chivalry, I disagree with the next 5. 
Only the last 3 are probably OK, but even they seem dangerous and sloppy. 
At least they aren't limited to "men shall do X for women" rules.


----------



## arbitrator

GTdad said:


> I will always open the door for a woman, and I will always give up my seat rather than see a woman stand, among those other little details of what I understand a gentleman to be.
> 
> Have to say though, I've never had anyone give me crap for it. That would be kind of weird, and maybe pretty funny since I'm not THAT much of a gentleman.


* My good friend GT speaks the absolute truth as that has been the same experience as with me. 

And not to necessarily chide the rest of the country, but I think that you will preeminently see this activity of overt manners toward members of the opposite sex and elderly moreso in the South than most anywhere else!

As youngsters, this was something that was quickly instilled in you by your parents or any other authority figures at a very early age!*


----------



## EllisRedding

Faithful Wife said:


> Seriously Ellis? You obviously didn't actually read what I wrote, but you're going to take a jab at me as if I did something inappropriate or weird? Thanks a lot for misrepresenting me and then taking a jab, even though I didn't do what you implied.


Seriously FW, what the heck is your problem??? My post was at Lola's comment. Please reread, she commented she would give you a second date if you commented about her peen. Since she is a female, it is safe to assume she doesn't have a peen (I guess you never know these days lol) which is what made her comment funny.

You need some serious help, please stop making everything about yourself. Notice I have kept away from quoting you or responding to anything you have to say. I am pretty sure Lola (and everyone else in this thread) understood what I was saying ... Feel free to respond if you still think you are correct ... quite sad ...


----------



## Runs like Dog

Men treat each other in online games exactly the way they're told they treat women. And yet there's no Gamergate for how men treat each other.


----------



## richardsharpe

Good evening
words change meaning. I think the common definition if chivalry these days is not at all closely related to the original definition. Since I don't think anyone is recommending that men follow the medieval definition, maybe we can used the Victorian / modern definition for the sake of discussion here - while being fully aware that it is not the original.


----------



## EllisRedding

Here is an interesting article which for whatever reason feels the need to define what a "real man" is

A Real Man Doesn?t Hesitate When He Finds The Right Woman

My favorite quote:



> A real man is an experienced man; he’s been through enough failed relationships and met enough wrong women that when he meets the right woman, he knows what he’s found.


So I guess I am not a real man. My wife is the only real relationship I have been in, any ones before her were minimal at best. Guess I should break up with her, hoar myself around a bit, and once I achieve "Real Man" status see if she will take me back ...

Not that there aren't some good points in the article, but it basically reads as an article about how a man should worship a woman. Nowhere in the article does it talk about how the man should also expect back the same love/respect from the female. 

Side question for the women here, are there articles pushed on you about how to be a real woman and treat a man right, or is this just specific to guys?


----------



## zillard

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> words change meaning. I think the common definition if chivalry these days is not at all closely related to the original definition. Since I don't think anyone is recommending that men follow the medieval definition, maybe we can used the Victorian / modern definition for the sake of discussion here - while being fully aware that it is not the original.


Agree. In present-day conversation when chivalry is mentioned it's usually not a reference to the Knights Templar, etc.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

You might want to start a thread on that, Ellis. Could be interesting to discuss what a "real man" means to different people.


----------



## bandit.45

I was brought up to be polite and gentlemanly to women. But I do believe that social behavior is going away and I don't think most women care one way or another. Women today are into competing with men in all aspects of life, love and business.

I have a hard time reconciling why I would want to open a door for a female coworker who just threw me under the bus in a staff meeting in order to protect her ladder.


----------



## jld

bandit.45 said:


> I have a hard time reconciling why I would want to open a door for a female coworker who just threw me under the bus in a staff meeting in order to protect her ladder.


It would have to come from inside of you. It would show that your core is solid and unaffected by her shallow one.


----------



## zillard

Personal said:


> *Ten Commandments of Chivalry*
> 
> 1. Thou shalt believe all that the Church teaches and thou shalt observe all its directions.
> 2. Thou shalt defend the Church.
> 3. Thou shalt respect all weaknesses, and shalt constitute thyself the defender of them.
> 4. Thou shalt love the country in which thou wast born.
> 5. Thou shalt not recoil before thine enemy.
> 6. Thou shalt make war against the infidel without cessation and without mercy.
> 7. Thou shalt perform scrupulously thy feudal duties, if they be not contrary to the laws of God
> 8. Thou shalt never lie, and shalt remain faithful to thy pledged word.
> 9. Thou shalt be generous, and give largesse to everyone.
> 10. Thou shalt be everywhere and always the champion of the Right and the Good against Injustice and Evil.


1. Strict adherence to a moral code and set of values.
2. Defend your code.
3. Use your strength to respect and defend those in need.
4. Respect your community.
5. Have fortitude. CFD - Cool, firm, dispassionate.
6. Hold on to your N.U.T.S - firm boundaries
7. Fulfill your civic duties, yet don't violate your code.
8. Be true to your word. Be honorable.
9. Be generous and courteous.
10. Live this in every aspect of life. Home, work, and play.


----------



## EllisRedding

jld said:


> You might want to start a thread on that, Ellis. Could be interesting to discuss what a "real man" means to different people.


Great idea jld, done 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/272393-what-defines-real-man.html#post12857441


----------



## 2ntnuf

EllisRedding said:


> Here is an interesting article which for whatever reason feels the need to define what a "real man" is
> 
> A Real Man Doesn?t Hesitate When He Finds The Right Woman
> 
> My favorite quote:
> 
> 
> 
> So I guess I am not a real man. My wife is the only real relationship I have been in, any ones before her were minimal at best. Guess I should break up with her, hoar myself around a bit, and once I achieve "Real Man" status see if she will take me back ...
> 
> Not that there aren't some good points in the article, but* it basically reads as an article about how a man should worship a woman. Nowhere in the article does it talk about how the man should also expect back the same love/respect from the female. *
> 
> Side question for the women here, are there articles pushed on you about how to be a real woman and treat a man right, or is this just specific to guys?


Reads like a reverse throw-back to the fifties...the pendulum swings on.


----------



## bandit.45

jld said:


> It would have to come from inside of you. It would show that your core is solid and unaffected by her shallow one.


Oh...I would open the door for her, but I would probably tell her what a backstabbing little snot she is while she passes me by...


----------



## jld

bandit.45 said:


> Oh...I would open the door for her, but I would probably tell her what a backstabbing little snot she is while she passes me by...


It will catch up with her. Our characters do not exist in a vacuum.


----------



## 2ntnuf

Ignore her and make more powerful friends than she has.


----------



## EleGirl

NotEasy said:


> I am a christian I disagree with the first 2.
> Despite believing in chivalry, I disagree with the next 5.
> Only the last 3 are probably OK, but even they seem dangerous and sloppy.
> At least they aren't limited to "men shall do X for women" rules.


The way I read it, there is nothing in the Chivalry code that say do anything for women. 

The video that Random posted talks about how the Chivalry code was changed over time to be the manners of the upper crust. It was basic a set of manners to set them apart from the lowly masses.


----------



## Runs like Dog

Assuming of course your wilting flower of a woman doesn't throw a drink in your face for being patronizing.


----------



## EleGirl

EllisRedding said:


> Here is an interesting article which for whatever reason feels the need to define what a "real man" is
> 
> A Real Man Doesn?t Hesitate When He Finds The Right Woman
> 
> My favorite quote:
> 
> 
> 
> So I guess I am not a real man. My wife is the only real relationship I have been in, any ones before her were minimal at best. Guess I should break up with her, hoar myself around a bit, and once I achieve "Real Man" status see if she will take me back ...
> 
> Not that there aren't some good points in the article, but it basically reads as an article about how a man should worship a woman. Nowhere in the article does it talk about how the man should also expect back the same love/respect from the female.
> 
> Side question for the women here, are there articles pushed on you about how to be a real woman and treat a man right, or is this just specific to guys?


I think that a real, real man, does not need failed relationships to be able to identify the right woman when she comes along.


----------



## NotEasy

Personal said:


> Why would it mention "men shall do X for women" in a text about a profession of arms?
> 
> Considering chivalry is largely a doctrinal approach to warfare from the medieval era that has since been made redundant, I'm surprised anyone aspires to be chivalrous.
> 
> That said, one does not need to practice chivalry in order to act decently towards others. Chivalry in the cold light of reality is simply a byproduct of European feudal society. The Enlightenment and the growth of humanist principles have done much to free many from the yoke of feudal oppression. Chivalry on the other hand played a role in maintaining that oppression.


The list was headed "*Ten Commandments of Chivalry*" and this thread is modern chivalry not it's historic military basis. I think modern chivalry has nearly no connection with ancient military conventions, And I don't care so much about it's history.
A video posted above talked about how even in medieval times chivalry had become a means for aspiring nobles to show their 'class'. So even then it wasn't just military.
I was pleased when Zillard brought up a chivalrous act by his daughter. I find it annoying when some women think chivalry only applies to mens behaviour towards women. And I have not seen that at TAM, only occassionally in real life. But this is going off track from the thread. I shouldn't have added the men/women sentence.


----------



## RandomDude

EleGirl said:


> The video that Random posted talks about how the Chivalry code was changed over time to be the manners of the upper crust. It was basic a set of manners to set them apart from the lowly masses.


Aye! Begone peasants or thou shalt be crushed with thy own cabbage roll!

Anyway they call this "etiquette"

Heh, in history, chivalry was practiced when it was convenient, knights still murdered, raped, looted, especially under the cross. To kill an infidel is not murder, tis the will of God!


----------



## NotEasy

zillard said:


> 1. Strict adherence to a moral code and set of values.
> 2. Defend your code.
> 3. Use your strength to respect and defend those in need.
> 4. Respect your community.
> 5. Have fortitude. CFD - Cool, firm, dispassionate.
> 6. Hold on to your N.U.T.S - firm boundaries
> 7. Fulfill your civic duties, yet don't violate your code.
> 8. Be true to your word. Be honorable.
> 9. Be generous and courteous.
> 10. Live this in every aspect of life. Home, work, and play.


I agree with all these values and think they are a good definition of modern chivalry.


----------



## sapientia

Not dead. Chivalry was historically a rare thing, exclusive to the upper class.

Today, the serf class is basically our middle working class. If you want to see evidence for chivalry, aka being well-mannered, look to the upper middle or, better, upper class (NetW top <1%). Those men (stats say they are, for the most part) treat their ladies, at least in public, quite well. It's a status symbol to do so and considered poor behaviour not to.


----------



## NotEasy

bandit.45 said:


> I have a hard time reconciling why I would want to open a door for a female coworker who just threw me under the bus in a staff meeting in order to protect her ladder.


To me chivalry (or really just good character) is best shown in how you behave to those who have or might treat you badly.
To take a more general case, men who only hold a door open for those women who will not snap at him are just fishing for complements. It seems like a PUA move. Chivalry is helping others expecting no reward, or even risking negative outcomes.
Not saying I am perfect, just this is my ideal.


----------



## RandomDude

Have to admit, I actually look for class among the woman I date...

Chivalry is so dead but etiquette/class isn't. In my early years, even with ex-wife I was rather gruff, swore all the time, like I just came out of jail (which I did)... over time with ex-wife as well as new responsibilities at work, I changed. Became more errr... "classy", changed my whole social circle in fact. Hope that doesn't make me into a "gentleman" bah! I detest the term!


----------



## NotEasy

EleGirl said:


> The way I read it, there is nothing in the Chivalry code that say do anything for women.
> 
> The video that Random posted talks about how the Chivalry code was changed over time to be the manners of the upper crust. It was basic a set of manners to set them apart from the lowly masses.


I agree completely. I dislike involving gender when defining chivalry. 
The best thing I could see with the "*Ten Commandments of Chivalry*" was that it didn't do that. But my point was poorly made. I shouldn't have mentioned it.


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## NotEasy

RandomDude said:


> Have to admit, I actually look for class among the woman I date...
> 
> Chivalry is so dead but etiquette/class isn't. In my early years, even with ex-wife I was rather gruff, swore all the time, like I just came out of jail (which I did)... over time with ex-wife as well as new responsibilities at work, I changed. Became more errr... "classy", changed my whole social circle in fact. Hope that doesn't make me into a "gentleman" bah! I detest the term!


I also dislike the term "gentleman", to me it suggests those with more money than honesty or ethics.
Chivalry also seems to be disliked by some people, perhaps because of its military origins and religious links.
Etiquette to me suggests raising you little finger when drinking tea. All about using pointless social customs to distinguish oneself.
I want a term that suggests helping others in need and focuses on their need. I can't suggest any better term. I mentioned "good character", but it is too undefined.

You should have come to Australia, we like ex-convicts.


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## RandomDude

I wouldn't say etiquette is pointless, as I found it very useful, not to mention having to have etiquette to represent my business. I am also Australian by birth and nationality, however I spent the last ten years in the company of immigrants / first generation folk, including having married one.


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## arbitrator

EllisRedding said:


> Here is an interesting article which for whatever reason feels the need to define what a "real man" is
> 
> A Real Man Doesn?t Hesitate When He Finds The Right Woman
> 
> My favorite quote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *A real man is an experienced man; he's been through enough failed relationships and has met enough wrong women that when he meets the right woman, he knows what he's found.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So I guess I am not a real man. My wife is the only real relationship I have been in, any ones before her were minimal at best. Guess I should break up with her, hoar myself around a bit, and once I achieve "Real Man" status see if she will take me back ...
> 
> Not that there aren't some good points in the article, but it basically reads as an article about how a man should worship a woman. Nowhere in the article does it talk about how the man should also expect back the same love/respect from the female.
> 
> Side question for the women here, are there articles pushed on you about how to be a real woman and treat a man right, or is this just specific to guys?
Click to expand...

* And please consider me an "unreal" man as well, but for far different reasons than yours, Ellis!

After being married twice, and summarily stabbed in the solar plexus by the act of wanton adultery in as many times, with the succeeding act being progressively worse than the former, let's just say that this old boy is absolutely scared crapless to even attempt to encounter a third foray into married life for all of the harm that could possibly await me!

So please feel free to call me "unreal," a coward, a wimp, or insecure! I'll proudly don those monikers! But even so, know that I am far happier now about not having to go through a sham of a marriage worrying about who it is that the "old lady" is off shagging somewhere!*


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## 2ntnuf

Apparently it is, unless you stick up for the right folks.


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## sapientia

arbitrator said:


> *
> After being married twice, and summarily stabbed in the solar plexus by the act of wanton adultery in as many times, with the succeeding act being progressively worse than the former, let's just say that this old boy is absolutely scared crapless to even attempt to encounter a third foray into married life for all of the harm that could possibly await me!*


For those with dubious pickers, I've often wondered if we aren't better off letting those we care about, with relationships we admire, to do the picking for us.

Just a side thought.


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## sapientia

NotEasy said:


> I want a term that suggests helping others in need and focuses on their need. I can't suggest any better term. I mentioned "good character", but it is too undefined.


Authentic generosity?


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## NotEasy

RandomDude said:


> I wouldn't say etiquette is pointless, as I found it very useful, not to mention having to have etiquette to represent my business. I am also Australian by birth and nationality, however I spent the last ten years in the company of immigrants / first generation folk, including having married one.


I don't think etiquette pointless. I see it as often being only a surface behaviour, with no underlying character basis.
Chivalry of course can be the same, but I think it is more often based on deeper character traits. And it is character that I am interested in.

Etiquette has been important in my work too.


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## RandomDude

True

It's just style


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