# The bully card



## RandomDude

Bah! Fking six year old politics, and I have to get involved with all this crap...

SITUATION:

Been hearing (again) that my daughter has been bullying other kids in school and in church, and ex-wife has been having trouble dealing with it or so she told me, and insisted on me disciplining her and undermining her priviledges. This has happened before but it did not get so serious, and based on the outcome last time my ex-wife concluded that I've been encouraging our daughter's bad behaviour.

BACKGROUND:

The thing is - she gets on very well with most other kids, other kids parents too and teachers - she's quite loved - something I'm proud of. We have dealt with these accusations of "bullying" in the past, and it became a joke to me - I just see her as standing up for herself, ex abided by my decision at that time. Anyway with all this talk of "she's picking on other kids", I went to investigate, also out of my daughter's behest, ex-wife thought it inappropriate but fk that, she's my daughter too! We had a short quarrel amongst ourselves but it's unimportant (and I'm admittedly a bit hurt she thought it 'inappropriate' - is my presence THAT bad to her?)

BTW ex-wife also mentioned that the stories are consistent between the school and church - keep this in mind...

And well...

INVESTIGATION:

I was with the kids during sunday school when I told my daughter to invite the bullied kid into her little group and she did with zero hesitation yet the kid didn't want to. I knew my daughter may probably be on just her 'best behavior' so I talked to the sunday school teacher and she hates my daughter's guts, saying that she was quiet when I was there but when I'm not she's a smartass, talks back, and is trouble for her as she encourages other kids to talk back. The thing is - I'm not so sure I buy the whole "talking back" thing, I encourage her to question everything, she's very inquisitive and I want this trait to stay (other teachers even love it as she gets the kids involved!). Hell I only agreed to church as she has lots of friends there too!

I don't fully buy that my daughter is rude to her teacher either, she can be a smartass sure but not rude and another teachers told me the same, except even those who defended her told me she does have a habit of interrupting. I talked to her about that later but anyway... then she says that that my daughter teases, name-calls and what not to that kid. So I turned to the kid's parents after, consistent story.

I had a sitdown with my daughter and her side of the story is that this kid's a poor sport like A/B (we've been through this before in the past with other kids - similar story, other times she had unintentionally hurt other kids feelings but meh) and that's why she and her friends don't want to play with him anymore. When I asked her friends they lied to me at first about the bullying before my daughter stepped in and got them to tell me the 'truth' - hell quite frankly I didn't know how much of a pack leader she truly was until today! 

They told me that they have tried to get him to play with them but whenever he does, he plays by his rules and whines until they comply or practically kicks them out of the grounds and if he can't - he 'dobs in' for bullying. That's the only consistent information, some tried to make up some bullsh-t that is probably to exaggerate the situation but I don't believe them. Anyway from what they told me it seems he's being picked on for that. The stories are consistent (mostly minus the bullsh-t, daughter didn't confirm or deny their stories), in the end I don't think this is a ploy these kids are up to. I didn't say anything to her friends about their bullying (or their attempts to lie to my face), not my responsibility, but I did promise them not to snitch to their parents. 

The sunday school teacher said she would look into the boy's behavior but I'm not holding my breath based on how much she seems to hate my daughter - as I'm getting the impression she's being picked on herself by a teacher who hates her, I remember several messed up teachers when I grew up too - mostly racists. Also seeing how she's a pack leader it seems she's being held responsible for alot of the other kids behavior - I just don't believe that's fair on my daughter. There were also other mixed opinions and others who went "not my problem" within the church.

So ok, ex-wife was right -> name-calling, excluding the kid and ganging up on the kid is confirmed, daughter HAS been a bully. But the reasons? 

OPINION:

Ex-wife told me I'm enabling her by not disciplining my daughter for her behavior but I don't believe she needs to be disciplined for this, ex said that the stories from church are consistent with the complaints from the school and hell I just turned around and told her if that's the case then I would be standing up for her at school as well. I just don't see why my daughter needs to be disciplined. Sure the name calling and ganging up on the kid is wrong but should I punish her for standing up for herself and her friends? Should kids get a bully card to pull every now and then to get their way? Should I enable THAT KID's behaviour and others like him? 

That's IF - what my daughter and friends say is true, the kid didn't play ball when I made my daughter offer her hand out after all. And as mentioned their stories are also consistent, I don't think they are making it up, so it's not like this kid was being picked on for the usual childish things that I would consider REAL bullying.

OUTCOME:

Anyway we needed a compromise as there's no way we could leave this unresolved and break our united front (not to mention I'm bloody considering reconciliation!!!) We still don't agree with each other but we did drop our disciplinary plans and I also compromised on my part by telling her off myself, told her that ganging on that kid was wrong, and that if the kid wants to take over the playground let him, as everyone already knows he's a poor sport so she doesn't have to prove anything, and that other kids listen to her so instead of joining in she should get them to stop picking on him as well, to just avoid him, no need to pick on him or be mean to him, and maybe he'll come around to play properly if everyone wasn't so mean. I also told her not to interrupt her teachers in school and in church.

She seemed to have understood (I hope) and gave us her word that she'll stop her bullying in church and in school as well, cried and I hugged her as I told her we weren't going to take away her privileges as long as she keeps her promise, and that we both still love her, right now she's feeling a little down after being told off but seems relieved at least. It was settled, ex was satisfied, thanked me for supporting her at least. I reminded her we won't always agree with each other but we're still a team.

REFLECTION:

To be honest though I understand my daughter and the other kids, I was forced to tell her off today but that little brat... hell can't imagine raising someone else's kid!!! The consequence of this compromise - if daughter keeps her word - is that now this kid has free reign over all the activities and will be taught that the bully card works! Hell he reminds me of this kid:










Today I also saw how the kids at church were frighteningly loyal to her, but don't know about school where there's a bigger crowd and if she has the guts to stand against her own crowd if stones are thrown, especially if the bullied kids are bullied for a reason. Peer pressure.

My daughter did not lie to me and she has showed me she has nothing to hide, she didn't ask me to church to enable her, she was misunderstood. I don't know... Sometimes I wonder if ex is trying to disciplining our daughter for making her look bad as a parent or is disciplining her because she doesn't want our daughter to bully. I shouldn't be questioning her love for our daughter but she has pissed me off a few times in the past when it comes to parenting. So far will just have to give her the benefit of the doubt.

I don't know, what you guys think? This is making me question the "anti-bullying" guidelines that are standard in modern schools, as well as the "anti-racism" crap we still deal with as adults.

But anyway joked with my daughter that the boy is her future boyfriend though haha, nah screw that, I'll be strangling him if he was to be my future SIL!


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## EleGirl

It sounds like you did ok with this. I really hate this kid stuff too.


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## RandomDude

I don't know, a part of me wonders if I'm encouraging her right, like this brat is getting away with it!
And they call my daughter spoiled! Bah!

The compromises we have to make to keep the peace, hell... ex wife should stand up for her daughter more, I don't know why she has such a poor impression of her sometimes. She says our daughter has two sides to her but I just don't see it. If it's the bullying well hell that kid had it coming IMO, but oh well


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## Pluto2

RD, this is such a sticky subject for parents (and I think you did just fine).

I've also tried to raise both of my DDs to speak-up for themselves, rather than assume I or anyone else can do this for them. I mean I always have their back and they know this.

I had a situation with my younger DD when she was about 9, with a schoolmate who was accusing my DD of being a bully. Nothing could be farther from the truth. This schoolmate was manipulative and aggressive, but seemed to be drawn to my DD. My DD came to me several nights in a row upset about the way this friend behaved, so I told her not to play with her. At school she followed my instructions and played with a different group of kids. This other girl started following my DD around and wanted to be part of this new group. Eventually, my DD spoke up and said they could not play together. This other girl ran to the teacher to say my DD was being a bully for excluding this girl from a group. The teacher called me, initially saying my DD was bullying a classmate by excluding her from playtime and I quickly told the teacher the issues these two had been having. The teacher agreed to observe the dynamics more carefully. Apparently, this other girl continued to harass my DD and raise other utterly baseless claims of bullying. The teacher finally caught on and started dealing with the actual problem with this other girl.

This kid was smart and devious and lacks any real empathy for others. She seemed to catch on pretty quick that if she uttered the bully word, she could get what she wanted. This stuff happens. Her parents seem to think her behavior stems from her advanced intelligence. Whatever, that's not the kind of intelligence I want my kids to develop.

I think the most you can do is give your kids the tools to deal with different situations in a responsible, yet respectful manner. No lies, no name calling, leave a situation before it becomes physical, seek out help from adults. Bullying is a real problem and I think the schools want it to stop, but they don't have the manpower to watch all the kids all the time to find out what is really going on.


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## jld

I think it is hard for us parents to be objective about our kids, RD. Maybe try to relax and look at all this more objectively in coming days.

I don't think it is wise to discount your daughter's mother's opinion. Mothers see a lot that fathers sometimes miss, imo. I am sure she wants the best for her child, too.


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## unbelievable

You ask the adult leader if your kid was being a jerk and found out she was. You disbelieve the teacher. You don't believe your kid was being disrespectful to the teacher but you concede your kid can be a smart a$$. Not sure I appreciate the difference. Interrupting others is disrespectful. This adult volunteers her time to teach kids Sunday School but you believe she hates her kid's guts? Does that even make sense? If she didn't like kids, she wouldn't have volunteered for that position. If she likes kids but she has issues with your's, your kid probably has a problem. You've seen the kids obey her. I believe you called it "frightenly loyal". You were watching kids react to a bully. Your wife knows her daughter and if she says the kid is being a bully you can probably take that to the bank. The one dissenting voice is that of a 6 year old but that's the one you are inclined to believe? 

Doesn't sound like anyone is picking on your daughter or hates her. Sounds like some adults are interested in curing some bad behavior before it gets to be a major problem and they'd like your help. Every kid needs a little tweaking. That's why they have parents. They aren't born being decent, well-socialized human beings. The person who will suffer the most if her behavior is not corrected will be your daughter. Like I told my grand daughter, "Girls who play bossy games play alone." I raised two daughters and a son. I would love to have believed they were angels but they weren't. All three needed an occasional adjustment. Generally, the least reliable source of information regarding a 6 year old's unwitnessed poor behavior is the word of the 6 year old.


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## lifeistooshort

In my experience from when I was teaching every problem kid we had came with a parent who made excuses for them and took the "not my kid" attitude. Of course I have no idea if this is your daughter but I saw it happen all the time. 

And you may think it's cute that she's a smarta$$ but it will not serve her well in the future. 

Try to keep in mind that your end goal is to raise a functional adult who can work with and socialize with others.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RandomDude

Pluto2 said:


> RD, this is such a sticky subject for parents (and I think you did just fine).
> 
> I've also tried to raise both of my DDs to speak-up for themselves, rather than assume I or anyone else can do this for them. I mean I always have their back and they know this.
> 
> I had a situation with my younger DD when she was about 9, with a schoolmate who was accusing my DD of being a bully. Nothing could be farther from the truth. This schoolmate was manipulative and aggressive, but seemed to be drawn to my DD. My DD came to me several nights in a row upset about the way this friend behaved, so I told her not to play with her. At school she followed my instructions and played with a different group of kids. This other girl started following my DD around and wanted to be part of this new group. Eventually, my DD spoke up and said they could not play together. This other girl ran to the teacher to say my DD was being a bully for excluding this girl from a group. The teacher called me, initially saying my DD was bullying a classmate by excluding her from playtime and I quickly told the teacher the issues these two had been having. The teacher agreed to observe the dynamics more carefully. Apparently, this other girl continued to harass my DD and raise other utterly baseless claims of bullying. The teacher finally caught on and started dealing with the actual problem with this other girl.
> 
> This kid was smart and devious and lacks any real empathy for others. She seemed to catch on pretty quick that if she uttered the bully word, she could get what she wanted. This stuff happens. Her parents seem to think her behavior stems from her advanced intelligence. Whatever, that's not the kind of intelligence I want my kids to develop.
> 
> I think the most you can do is give your kids the tools to deal with different situations in a responsible, yet respectful manner. No lies, no name calling, leave a situation before it becomes physical, seek out help from adults. Bullying is a real problem and I think the schools want it to stop, but they don't have the manpower to watch all the kids all the time to find out what is really going on.


Yes! Hell its great you can relate - its exactly the same situation! And it seems like - the exact same resolution too! Ha!

I hope her teachers do look into it (like sunday school teacher said), the obvious victim may end up being too obvious.



jld said:


> I think it is hard for us parents to be objective about our kids, RD. Maybe try to relax and look at all this more objectively in coming days.
> 
> I don't think it is wise to discount your daughter's mother's opinion. Mothers see a lot that fathers sometimes miss, imo. I am sure she wants the best for her child, too.


Well, 'what is best' may turn out to be relative, when it comes to ex and I, I respect her perspective but... anyway considering investigating this further - at the school, as I have a feeling this will happen again. 

Or I can just let the current resolution stand.



unbelievable said:


> You ask the adult leader if your kid was being a jerk and found out she was. You disbelieve the teacher. You don't believe your kid was being disrespectful to the teacher but you concede your kid can be a smart a$$. Not sure I appreciate the difference. Interrupting others is disrespectful. This adult volunteers her time to teach kids Sunday School but you believe she hates her kid's guts? Does that even make sense? If she didn't like kids, she wouldn't have volunteered for that position. If she likes kids but she has issues with your's, your kid probably has a problem. You've seen the kids obey her. I believe you called it "frightenly loyal". You were watching kids react to a bully. Your wife knows her daughter and if she says the kid is being a bully you can probably take that to the bank. The one dissenting voice is that of a 6 year old but that's the one you are inclined to believe?
> 
> Doesn't sound like anyone is picking on your daughter or hates her. Sounds like some adults are interested in curing some bad behavior before it gets to be a major problem and they'd like your help. Every kid needs a little tweaking. That's why they have parents. They aren't born being decent, well-socialized human beings. The person who will suffer the most if her behavior is not corrected will be your daughter. Like I told my grand daughter, "Girls who play bossy games play alone." I raised two daughters and a son. I would love to have believed they were angels but they weren't. All three needed an occasional adjustment. Generally, the least reliable source of information regarding a 6 year old's unwitnessed poor behavior is the word of the 6 year old.


Actually, yeah, it makes sense to me. I do understand that teachers, especially volunteers wouldn't be doing it if they hated it. However guess I'm not one to trust them on that alone, there are very abusive teachers out there. Personal experience included. I don't think sunday school teacher is one of them though, but I do think she's not seeing the full picture - her tone suggests that she may also be clouded by frustration/annoyance.

I AM curious and suspicious about daughter's hold with the kids though know that you mentioned it. They obeyed her - but out of fear?



lifeistooshort said:


> In my experience from when I was teaching every problem kid we had came with a parent who made excuses for them and took the "not my kid" attitude. Of course I have no idea if this is your daughter but I saw it happen all the time.
> 
> And you may think it's cute that she's a smarta$$ but it will not serve her well in the future.
> 
> Try to keep in mind that your end goal is to raise a functional adult who can work with and socialize with others.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well, I did tell her off for being rude and interrupting her teachers. We are trying to keep her well mannered and for the most part she is. If she is already a leader at her age, we must be doing something right no?

As for her smartass behavior, she can be a pain in the butt though, I've been reining in on the rudeness trying to show her when and where she should let it out or keep it zipped. Don't think it's something to punish her for, unless it crosses the line.


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## RandomDude

Actually come to think of it, from the perspectives so far presented - I'm seeing parallel patterns now but nothing solid

Daughter has signs of possibly being a bully with her pull on other kids, I've seen her with other kids though and she's a sweetheart. But when daddy's not looking though? Who knows. Ex wife is seeing a different pattern but starting to understand her concerns. 

Heck, how to investigate this? I want to get this over and done with - the truth.


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## unbelievable

RandomDude said:


> Yes! Hell its great you can relate - its exactly the same situation! And it seems like - the exact same resolution too! Ha!
> 
> I hope her teachers do look into it (like sunday school teacher said), the obvious victim may end up being too obvious.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, 'what is best' may turn out to be relative, when it comes to ex and I, I respect her perspective but... anyway considering investigating this further - at the school, as I have a feeling this will happen again.
> 
> Or I can just let the current resolution stand.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, yeah, it makes sense to me. I do understand that teachers, especially volunteers wouldn't be doing it if they hated it. However guess I'm not one to trust them on that alone, there are very abusive teachers out there. Personal experience included. I don't think sunday school teacher is one of them though, but I do think she's not seeing the full picture - her tone suggests that she may also be clouded by frustration/annoyance.
> 
> I AM curious and suspicious about daughter's hold with the kids though know that you mentioned it. They obeyed her - but out of fear?
> 
> 
> 
> Well, I did tell her off for being rude and interrupting her teachers. We are trying to keep her well mannered and for the most part she is. If she is already a leader at her age, we must be doing something right no?
> 
> As for her smartass behavior, she can be a pain in the butt though, I've been reining in on the rudeness trying to show her when and where she should let it out or keep it zipped. Don't think it's something to punish her for, unless it crosses the line.


Is there some appropriate time to be rude? You might be expecting a lot to ask a 6 year old to understand when it's appropriate to be rude and when it isn't. I'm almost 54 and it's my belief that respect for other humans is a requirement all the time and I think that would be especially true regarding the relationship between a 6 year old and her parents or teachers. I don't believe rude behavior is something to occasionally reign in. It's something to be eliminated. I can see no benefit for a child to learn to be rude. It won't help her in her future relationships at home, with neighbors, or on the job (unless she intends to be a child actress, in which case being obnoxious seems to be mandatory). 
Whether the other kids obey your daughter out of fear or out of avoidance, she's still manipulating other kids. A single child at home may get to act like the center of the universe but we expose them to social situations where they learn to cooperate in polite society, not expect subservience from society. If it wasn't a problem your wife wouldn't have mentioned it, her teacher at Sunday School and her teacher at real school wouldn't have mentioned it. You wouldn't have observed anything that caused you concern. You did observe concerning behavior and you have three other adults giving you uncomfortable reports about her. One is your wife, who, presumably adores your daughter as you do. The other two are adults who chose their respective professions, in part, because they love kids. One adult isn't even being paid. Neither teacher gets paid to raise your kid. You've not only noticed the same crappy behaviors at home from her, you've had to correct her numerous times. What's not to believe? You don't hate her guts and you've noticed she can be pushy and rude. Why would you doubt the motives of other adults who have seen the same thing?


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## RandomDude

I don't believe she's that malicious, most of the time her smartass comments just result in a laugh for all parties. I don't want to raise her to be too serious, but just my opinion.

Her pull with the kids can be for alot of reasons; fear, avoidance, but can also be respect, and trust. I am assuming the best - bias, but yes I do suspect the worse as well. Right now I can't really make a conclusion.

I've seen how she defuses arguments among her friends, how she is inclusive and very social, her friends come over all the time, which contradicts signs of bully-material, but then I confirm the name-calling, teasing, exclusion, and then see how she holds authority - 'coolest kid in the block aint always the nicest', so I'm not ruling out the possibility of her darker sides...

Bah! This is doing my head in! Maybe I should hire a PI or do it myself, I need to see how she is when I'm not around.


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## Blondilocks

"She says our daughter has two sides to her but I just don't see it."

Your wife is same sex. You are opposite sex. Some mothers can't be objective about their sons where as the fathers can. Trust your ex on this one.

Don't hire a PI - observe for yourself. A PI's definition of a bully or unacceptable behavior may be different from yours. 

Don't think for a minute that your little girl doesn't have you wrapped around her pinky (because she does).


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## coffee4me

Kids are like sponges they soak up what you say. I'm not someone to punish my kids I talked to them, not lecture them. My kids have probably absorbed more of my life philosophy driving with me in the car than any other place. No devices distracting, captive audience 15-20 min ride just long enough for them to digest a subject. 

If I was in your place RD subjects like speaking with respect, how people perceive how we speak to them, the power of leadership etc. I never did talk down to my kids or make an assumption that they didn't understand what I tell them. If they don't get something they ask. Examples are great, it gives them the ideas of how people communicate, the difference in tone etc. I often used example from work and they would get caught up in the story and not perceive it as a lesson or a message. Then I ask if they can think of times when they did XYZ behavior and it leads to discussions of better ways to handle life situations. 

My son has always been a natural leader what I taught him was with leadership comes responsibility. The thing is that even kids need to understand that "as a leader, you have the power to influence and you make a choice to either influence negatively or positively" 

"One of the hidden mysteries of success, certainly of leadership success is the personal attitude of the leader. And how that attitude is developed determines every aspect of their success, their reputation and their legacy." Your daughter has displayed to several teachers that she can have an attitude that does not come across well. It comes across even from you that your daughter is a smarta$$. Probably chip off the ol'block. Lol that will not serve her in life, better to teach her to effectively communicate with respect if she disagrees with someone. 

The thing you need to teach your daughter is that a true leader is not a bully. A true leader would not pick on someone who is weaker for whatever reason- even those that cry bully- it's weakness. A leader is the one who can stop the bully with a few words that is the leader who is respected, admired and followed for the right reasons.


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## RandomDude

Ex has my trust but I know she's human. You are correct though, I can't discount her perspective.

Well if I am going to observe myself, will have to get some equipment and observe from a distance, bug in her bag would do, should discuss this with ex first.


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## RandomDude

coffee4me said:


> My son has always been a natural leader what I taught him was with leadership comes responsibility. The thing is that even kids need to understand that "as a leader, you have the power to influence and you make a choice to either influence negatively or positively"
> 
> "One of the hidden mysteries of success, certainly of leadership success is the personal attitude of the leader. And how that attitude is developed determines every aspect of their success, their reputation and their legacy." Your daughter has displayed to several teachers that she can have an attitude that does not come across well. It comes across even from you that your daughter is a smarta$$. Probably chip off the ol'block. Lol that will not serve her in life, better to teach her to effectively communicate with respect if she disagrees with someone.
> 
> The thing you need to teach your daughter is that a true leader is not a bully. A true leader would not pick on someone who is weaker for whatever reason- even those that cry bully- it's weakness. A leader is the one who can stop the bully with a few words that is the leader who is respected, admired and followed for the right reasons.


Correct, I'll be using your words actually, sounds good. Actually already gives me a few ideas for tales to spin. Come to think of it, nah I'm going to have to have my daughter over for a full week.

I need to make sure she gets this. She's already a leader, no point going "she's too young to hold responsibility" now. Have to make sure she's the right type of leader, I can show her examples with how I run the show at work, one of my outlets operates in the evening so we can go after school. My style is FAR from autocratic. Never thought I would be teaching management and leadership to a six year old but hell, if she follows after daddy, would be good for her no?


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## coffee4me

By the time my son was 10 he had seen and discussed many aspects of my job. I'd had many discussing with him on leadership and how to deal with problems. I had interviewed him several times. He was student body president in grammar school and middle school. He also clamped down on the bullies. 

I think 6 years old is a great time to start encouraging her leadership skills in a positive direction. Just remember that teaching kids is on going RD it's never something you can "get it over with"


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## unbelievable

RandomDude said:


> I don't believe she's that malicious, most of the time her smartass comments just result in a laugh for all parties. I don't want to raise her to be too serious, but just my opinion.
> 
> Her pull with the kids can be for alot of reasons; fear, avoidance, but can also be respect, and trust. I am assuming the best - bias, but yes I do suspect the worse as well. Right now I can't really make a conclusion.
> 
> I've seen how she defuses arguments among her friends, how she is inclusive and very social, her friends come over all the time, which contradicts signs of bully-material, but then I confirm the name-calling, teasing, exclusion, and then see how she holds authority - 'coolest kid in the block aint always the nicest', so I'm not ruling out the possibility of her darker sides...
> 
> Bah! This is doing my head in! Maybe I should hire a PI or do it myself, I need to see how she is when I'm not around.


That sounds like the root of the problem. She acts like a jerk and folks laugh about it? Rewarding bad behavior is a sure way to get more of it. Crap that some nearsighted individuals might find cute in a 4 year old won't be cute when they are 15. It won't be cute when they are 23 and can't keep a job or a relationship. Even if you secretly think bad behavior is cute or funny, you need to consistently address it when they are quite young. If it's wrong to smart off to her parents or raise her voice to her parents, it's wrong 100% of the time, in matters great or small. You and wife, your current, partner, and any grandparents need to be on the same page where she has clear rules and boundaries she understands. Anything less is setting her up for failure. 
The last thing on earth I'd worry about is making a 6 year old too serious. Respectful kids have fun, too. They have more fun because they are in less trouble. Kids who aren't pushy have more fun because they actually have friends. When we say "happy" we really mean "contentment". People who are taught to expect to be the center of attention are never contented (happy). People who have to manipulate or belittle others to feel good about themselves aren't content (happy). The goal is for her to become a happy, productive, adult. 
You think the other kids have tons of respect for her? That's she's some kind of leader? She's not your leader and she is disrespectful with you. We aren't talking about a little sawed-off George Patton developing her leadership skills. This is a six year old girl who hasn't learned to use simple manners. Manners just means you behave in ways that show respect for other humans. You take turns. You listen when others are speaking. You don't appoint yourself "boss", etc. You don't need a PI and you would probably question whatever his report would say, anyway because part of you either doesn't want to believe your kid is ill mannered or you might actually be kind of proud that she's "standing up" to others (including her parents and teachers). You can take it for what it's worth, but you don't want to wake up as the parent of a 13 year old who considers you some kind of equal or maybe even her subordinate.


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## turnera

unbelievable said:


> You ask the adult leader if your kid was being a jerk and found out she was. You disbelieve the teacher. You don't believe your kid was being disrespectful to the teacher but you concede your kid can be a smart a$$. Not sure I appreciate the difference. Interrupting others is disrespectful. This adult volunteers her time to teach kids Sunday School but you believe she hates her kid's guts? Does that even make sense? If she didn't like kids, she wouldn't have volunteered for that position. If she likes kids but she has issues with your's, your kid probably has a problem. You've seen the kids obey her. I believe you called it "frightenly loyal". You were watching kids react to a bully. Your wife knows her daughter and if she says the kid is being a bully you can probably take that to the bank. The one dissenting voice is that of a 6 year old but that's the one you are inclined to believe?
> 
> Doesn't sound like anyone is picking on your daughter or hates her. Sounds like some adults are interested in curing some bad behavior before it gets to be a major problem and they'd like your help. Every kid needs a little tweaking. That's why they have parents. They aren't born being decent, well-socialized human beings. The person who will suffer the most if her behavior is not corrected will be your daughter.


Exactly what I was thinking. Ever watch the movie Mean Girls? That's what I saw, reading your view of events.


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## turnera

RandomDude said:


> If she is already a leader at her age, we must be doing something right no?


That depends on WHY she leads, HOW she leads, and what effect it's having on other kids.

If it were my kid, I'd be calling up the parents of the other kids she hangs around with, explaining the situation, asking them to observe her when she's around them, and report back to you what they see. THEY won't be biased, and you being willing to see both sides will go a long way in case there IS an issue.


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## Catherine602

She enlist followers, that is not leadership. A 6yo who thinks she knows more than adults and gains the dislike of them and other children has no leadership potential at all, actually. Maybe a rebel. Is that what you mean? Rebels make trouble, are disruptive, cruel, entitled and threatening. . 

Your daughter will have problems if she is already challenging the established hierarchy at the age of 6. That implies that she thinks she is superior to adult who have won the position by dint of growth, study, hard work and experience. In 7 yrs, she will be a teen and you will no longer be her hero. Just another adult who knows nothing. She will treat you the way she treats her teachers. 

School aged children are developing a their intellect and emotional intelligence. They are usually developing a sense of community and that requires empathy and compassion. Parents are responsible for helping them. This could have been handled very simply - you could have asked her to put herself into her Sunday school teachers shoes. how would she feel if she had a child who whipped up trouble and was mean to her class mates? 

The lesson that you should be teaching her is to treat others the way she would like to be treated. You could have used her penchant for asking questions to encourage her to work hard for knowledge - research questions, read and discuss things with her parents. That fosters a sense of accomplishment, a sense of industry and keeps lines of communication open. 

It takes a lot of work to raise a child to become well adapted and functional adults with the capacity for happiness. I don't think you are approaching this parenting stuff with the attention and energy that is needed. She is your most important concern now. Pull out all of the stops to guide her onto the right track. Read about childhood development and parenting.


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## Catherine602

I recently re-read "To Kill a Mockingbird". Have you read it? Very rich and dense. One of the sub themes is that adults are a product of their childhood experiences, their family and family traditions. Life's challenges can foster empathy or vengeful cruelty. The path a child takes is largely influenced by the manifest interest of the adults in the child's social milieu to teach them good values.


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## SunnyT

Catherine602 said:


> She enlist followers, that is not leadership. A 6yo who thinks she knows more than adults and gains the dislike of them and other children has no leadership potential at all, actually. Maybe a rebel. Is that what you mean? Rebels make trouble, are disruptivte, cruel, entitled and threatening. .


This is not a fair statement. Being a rebel doesn't mean being cruel, entitled and threatening. Maybe to a non-never-ever-rebel type person it would seem that way. A curious, precocious child may be a rebel...it doesn't make them ill mannered. Of course, it falls on parents to instill an understanding of "pick your battles" to the child. Over and over again as they grow. 

I think the bullying card has been over-played.... but that is the new norm in the currently wussified world. I'm a teacher also, and I see examples of real bullying, and every cry of "bully" that the school HAS to investigate/handle due to social pressure. Should we err on the side of caution? Maybe.... but we sure are erring on the side of ridiculous PC wussification. 

I think you handled it well. And if you take her to work and let you see how leaders CAN be, and just keep talking about it as she grows.... she'll be alright. There are alot of people who won't appreciate individuality, forthrightness, etc... they make crappy leaders. Just be aware of the need to help steer her, and keep her focus in positive directions. 

And no offense to Mom, but sometimes moms are biased against their daughters. Partly because of character traits that mom does not possess and cannot relate to, or because of traits that mom may deem as negative when it doesn't have to be that way. For example, a shy soft-spoken mom will probably never understand her gregarious daughter. The daughter will do things that the mom never would (both good and bad I'd guess). So sometimes, moms unknowingly label their child negatively when teaching positive direction would be better for the kid. 

Just talk alot to your child about life, expectations, etc.... Just as you teach her manners, you will also shape her morals.... including the bully/leader paths. 

You GOT this.....


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## RandomDude

I already consulted the parents face to face, both the bullied one and her friends' parents. The bullying reports are from a minority (her social circle is quite large) - which could mean she's not as malicious as some have made her out to be, or that she knows how to manipulate everyone very well, and/or already learnt the numbers game and reckons she can get away with it. I do acknowledge this could be deeper than I thought, meeting with ex today about it.

My daughter isn't a rebel, at least not with us, besides most teachers handle her just fine and there is positive feedback too, I know this post goes on about her being a bully but it's not like everyone hates her or anything close to that. She was a handful with mum though until we forged a united front. I've always held alot of weight with her, but I will also stand up for her if she's innocent.

I don't like being played for a fool though, especially not by my own kid! So I am committed to the truth. For now I'm still considering surveillance, but we may not need it if we encourage the right type of leadership -> if she's guilty, hopefully she'll learn, if she's innocent, well, I'm sure she can still pick up a few things from what I can show her. Will have to hear ex's opinion first.


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## RandomDude

SunnyT said:


> This is not a fair statement. Being a rebel doesn't mean being cruel, entitled and threatening. Maybe to a non-never-ever-rebel type person it would seem that way. A curious, precocious child may be a rebel...it doesn't make them ill mannered. Of course, it falls on parents to instill an understanding of "pick your battles" to the child. Over and over again as they grow.


My daughter IS very inquisitive, and I encourage it.

Besides I always found the best way to learn is to be inquisitive, even if you ask questions that people don't want to answer - thats what I teach her.
On a positive side some teachers have told me how they liked how she gets the class involved in the lessons with all her prodding.



> I think the bullying card has been over-played.... but that is the new norm in the currently wussified world. I'm a teacher also, and I see examples of real bullying, and every cry of "bully" that the school HAS to investigate/handle due to social pressure. Should we err on the side of caution? Maybe.... but we sure are erring on the side of ridiculous PC wussification.


Agreed, guess it's tough though when the kids have their own little world, and "teacher's coming!!!"
As well as the kids who go "If you won't let me do A or B, I will dob on you!"

How do you normally deal with the bully card?



> I think you handled it well. And if you take her to work and let you see how leaders CAN be, and just keep talking about it as she grows.... she'll be alright. There are alot of people who won't appreciate individuality, forthrightness, etc... they make crappy leaders. Just be aware of the need to help steer her, and keep her focus in positive directions.


Hopefully, she'll be inheriting everything anyway! Heir to the throne I guess lol



> And no offense to Mom, but sometimes moms are biased against their daughters. Partly because of character traits that mom does not possess and cannot relate to, or because of traits that mom may deem as negative when it doesn't have to be that way. For example, a shy soft-spoken mom will probably never understand her gregarious daughter. The daughter will do things that the mom never would (both good and bad I'd guess). So sometimes, moms unknowingly label their child negatively when teaching positive direction would be better for the kid.


Well, ex-wife and daughter are actually quite alike in both being social animals. Daughter was always out along with her mum since she was a babe, and hence doesn't know the meaning of 'shy', also non-self conscious (which can be a problem sometimes)

What do you think? Is it still possible for ex to have a negative bias?



> Just talk alot to your child about life, expectations, etc.... Just as you teach her manners, you will also shape her morals.... including the bully/leader paths.
> 
> You GOT this.....


Thanks


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## Catherine602

I suppose it's me. I don't aspire to raising a bully or rebel. Independent thinker, yes; confident enough to step out of the mob and report bullies, yes; emotionally intelligent, yes; a good follower, yes. If you read the biographies and/ or know good leaders, they are good followers too. Raw talent is not enough. They also have the ability to foster friendships and mentorship relationships. 

Erring on the side of caution when dealing with bullying is wise. Given the risk of the harm to the bully and innocents bystanders from too little attention, its appropriate to be vigilante. 

BTW, mentally healthy mothers are not jealous of their own daughters. Mothers are as able as father to instill good values and to love their male and female children 

Parenting is too important to guess at what is right for an individual child. It does not hurt to always question if you are doing the right thing and to acquire background information. Again, empathy comes into play, only this time, for your daughter. Step into your daughters shoes and imagine what she will be if the tendencies she is showing now are allowed to flourish. 

RD please consider that you may be projecting your issues of dealing with authority and conforming to rules onto your daughter. Your childhood was not the type that you and her mother are providing for your daughter. Are you encouraging her to be hard so that she is not hurt like you were? If so, she has you and her mother to love and protect her, she does not need to harden up. 

As she grows you will teach her to respect herself and equip her with the tools to protect herself. At 6, she should be worry free and not have to deal with rebelling or adults not liking her. Finally, do you want her to experience the emotional turmoil and loneliness of an emotionally hard woman?


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## RandomDude

Catherine602 said:


> RD please consider that you may be projecting your issues of dealing with authority and conforming to rules onto your daughter. Your childhood was not the type that you and her mother are providing for your daughter. Are you encouraging her to be hard so that she is not hurt like you were? If so, she has you and her mother to love and protect her, she does not need to harden up.
> 
> As she grows you will teach her to respect herself and equip her with the tools to protect herself. At 6, she should be worry free and not have to deal with rebelling or adults not liking her. Finally, do you want her to experience the emotional turmoil and loneliness of an emotionally hard woman?


Daughter isn't hardened at all, she's carefree to the point she would go up on a stage if we're not looking! lol

My mentality isn't what I want for her, nor is it one that she needs or will ever need, so don't worry about that, besides I promised her before she was even born I will give her a life that I never had, and I am continually providing that.

Besides if anyone has softened ME - it's her.


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## Catherine602

RandomDude said:


> My daughter IS very inquisitive, and I encourage it.
> 
> *Besides I always found the best way to learn is to be inquisitive, even if you ask questions that people don't want to answer - thats what I teach her.*
> On a positive side some teachers have told me how they liked how she gets the class involved in the lessons with all her prodding.
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed, guess it's tough though when the kids have their own little world, and "teacher's coming!!!"
> As well as the kids who go "If you won't let me do A or B, I will dob on you!"
> 
> How do you normally deal with the bully card?
> 
> 
> 
> Hopefully, she'll be inheriting everything anyway! Heir to the throne I guess lol
> 
> 
> *What do you think? Is it still possible for ex to have a negative bias?
> 
> *
> 
> Thanks


The first bolded part is your bias. Why assume that the teacher does not want to answer. He may not know the answer and does not want to lose face by admitting it. It's a teachable moment for you as a parent, compassion and humility. 

This has happened with my children. I tell them that they should not persist in asking the same question. There is more than adequate sources of information and they need to be proficient in finding answers from alternate sources. Asking others is lazy and an unreliable way to get the truth. They also needed to learn to be compassionate. They will find themselves in similar situations and be glad if thy are not embarrassed. 

Why assume that your ex's different opinion is negative? It's biased of course but so is your opinion. She loves your daughter and is as concerned about her as you, right? It's her way of seeing things that may have merit. Compromise is only possible if you consider each point of view with no negative judgements. Conflicts start with preconceived notions. She is acting out of concern and you are a team. Take her concerns seriously.


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## Catherine602

Also, the way you are both handling this stressful time will give you a idea of how well a R will work. Are you still adversaries or partners? Read over you post and evaluate the flavor of your interactions. What does it reveal. Can you have a completely new relationship or are you the same people who D? feelings. You cannot R and yen break up again. Your daughter would be devastated. If you are not absolutely sure that you are both capable of having a new functional relationship, don't R. For your daughters sake.


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## RandomDude

Well, I will admit I encourage this inquisitiveness to the max as I'm not too happy about possible influences of the church on my daughter. It's a religious matter and I don't want this thread to get into it. Ex and I are of different faiths, I agreed with her in the beginning with our daughter attending church, and by the time I started second guessing my decision she already settled in with the community and I can't rob her of that. I do not encourage her against the faith however, not to mention it is my ex's, I just want her to make her own informed decisions ultimately, and teaching her young to question is what I found the best way. The side effects of this have yielded positive results for other teachers as well.

As for ex's bias, I'm only asking SunnyT about the possibility of it by telling her how their daughter/mother dynamics work.
I'm not assuming anything, I'm asking. I trust my ex sure, but as I mentioned, she's human. I have a third eye on unexpected possibilities, that's just how I am.



Catherine602 said:


> Also, the way you are both handling this stressful time will give you a idea of how well a R will work. Are you still adversaries or partners? Read over you post and evaluate the flavor of your interactions. What does it reveal. Can you have a completely new relationship or are you the same people who D? feelings. You cannot R and yen break up again. Your daughter would be devastated. If you are not absolutely sure that you are both capable of having a new functional relationship, don't R. For your daughters sake.


We are both very different yet alike, so there will always be disagreements and there will be calls for compromises - no way around it. In the past these disagreements escalated into alot of drama yes, but if how we're working as a team now in co-parenting is any indication, we may actually stand a chance. When I said in my other thread - I've seen her mature and grow, this is part of it. We have had a successful divorce and we're very cooperative co-parents - irony isn't it?

She wouldn't be the same if she always agreed with me. Besides having an opposite helps with different perspectives.


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## SunnyT

Nah, I don't know about your W's bias..... I was just saying that sometimes parents can't relate to specific traits that a child has. Just putting an idea out there. You know, like one of those "My kid couldn't have done that...." parents. Ones who don't see. On the flip side..... there are parents who are so afraid their child might offend someone one that they think they have to bend over backwards, when it could just be kid stuff that is normal. 

Besides, playgrounds DO have pecking orders. Just like the whole world. You don't HAVE to play with anyone you don't want to.... but we learn as your daughter is now learning (and what seems very age appropriate) that we don't have to be ugly to people just because we don't want to play with them. Doesn't make you a bully tho. 

I think you are doing fine...aware and handling it. That's what parents do....handle stuff when it comes up. And I think you are handling the religion aspect well too. You are present, aware, sensitive to your daughter..... good on you Dad!


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## unbelievable

Just an observation, but we're talking about a 6 year old who has difficulty cooperating with other 6 year olds but she has five adults in her life who can't seem to cooperate with each other. 

You're not in agreement with her mother about the idea of her attending church.
Your current partner didn't agree with you going to check on this problem
You don't trust the mother of your child's assessment of her own child's behavior.
You don't trust the reports or motives of the Sunday School teacher.
You don't trust the reports or motives of her regular school teacher.

If mom or teacher tells you she as being a jerk and you ask your daughter if these adults were telling the truth, it ought to be pretty obvious to the kid that you don't trust the word of either of these adults and it puts her on equal plane with those who are supposed to be in authority.

A six year old isn't in a leadership position and isn't supposed to be groomed for leadership. That's the time for them to learn to control their own behavior. Supervising others won't be appropriate for her for quite a while. There is nothing admirable or cute about pushy, disrespectful, bossy preschoolers. 

Her greatest source of instruction is watching the adults in her life. Does she see people living in harmony, cooperating, treating each other with respect or does she see people who are frequently in conflict?


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## Pluto2

RD,
Just to follow up, in my DD's case, the "other girl" honestly did have some emotional issues that resulted in her being removed from the school. Seems she had actually threatened some other girl if they did not comply. So with an overcrowded classroom and a focus on, you know, teaching, these kind of personal dynamics took a bit to come to light.

At this age, I've found that the most important personal trait to foster in children has been empathy, and this generally requires a good deal of conversations over a period of time. You want her to have empathy for classmates, but also for the teacher. Ask her what she would do in front of a similar group, how she would want children to speak to her if she were a teacher. There's considerable evidence that when a parent goes overboard with an authoritarian-style of parenting, especially with girls, we're essentially teaching them to be submissive. They need to learn to develop their own voice (which your DD seems to have), but to also cultivate empathy and compassion for others which will then help them develop the skills to respect others.


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## RandomDude

@unbelievable

Well, I'm only trying to see the bigger picture, just how I am, I have their reports, including reports of others who have no problems with my daughter, and my own observations.

Ultimately complete trust is something I'm just not capable of, even with ex I only trust "what type of person she is", and I trust her the most out of anyone - so that's saying something heh. Even my own instincts I consider it what my subconscious picks up that my conscious brain fails to pick up - and can be clouded. I listen, but I try to see the bigger picture.

I feel I have to be fair in the pursuit of truth, not just take everyone's word for it - not even my daughter's.



Pluto2 said:


> RD,
> Just to follow up, in my DD's case, the "other girl" honestly did have some emotional issues that resulted in her being removed from the school. Seems she had actually threatened some other girl if they did not comply. So with an overcrowded classroom and a focus on, you know, teaching, these kind of personal dynamics took a bit to come to light.


I'm meeting with the teachers at school on Wednesday to share my findings of her behavior at church and hopefully it will encourage a closer look at the bully card. In the meantime I can hear their side for myself as well.



> At this age, I've found that the most important personal trait to foster in children has been empathy, and this generally requires a good deal of conversations over a period of time. You want her to have empathy for classmates, but also for the teacher. Ask her what she would do in front of a similar group, how she would want children to speak to her if she were a teacher. There's considerable evidence that when a parent goes overboard with an authoritarian-style of parenting, especially with girls, we're essentially teaching them to be submissive. They need to learn to develop their own voice (which your DD seems to have), but to also cultivate empathy and compassion for others which will then help them develop the skills to respect others.


Agreed, had a talk with ex-wife about this as well. In the past our daughter was rather insensitive, she made fun/teased and not everyone was cool with her behavior. Guess the lesson didn't stick.

I'll only have my daughter on Wed and Fri however before the weekend, ex-wife/daughter already have their own plans. I think she's better than I am when it comes to teaching empathy anyway.

Hell I can only imagine how hard this would be if we weren't a team.


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## turnera

RandomDude said:


> ex-wife/daughter already have their own plans. I think she's better than I am when it comes to teaching empathy anyway.


I think you would be wrong. Girls have a special bond with their dads. They know their moms love them unconditionally, but they CRAVE their dad's respect and admiration. So if she hears it from YOU that you want to see more empathy from her, she's more likely to believe it.


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## scatty

RandomDude, Dad's who teach and display empathy raise daughter's who pick empathetic partners. You have just as much influence on your daughter's upbringing as your wife.


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## RandomDude

EX actually

The thing is ex sees more of the problem than I do, hence all I can do really is back her up

Been thinking about how she thought it "inappropriate" over me joining them for church though, meh I don't know, probably thinking too much into it.


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## turnera

RD, I will respectfully suggest that you look up this website, and subscribe to its magazine. I found it long ago when DD24 was about 10, and it helped me immensely. Told me more than I ever knew about girls and raising them, what they thought, what they wanted to know, what they wouldn't ask about, how to talk to them....just everything. They used to mail out real newsletters, and we'd sit down every month and read it front to back, and talk about all the issues it covered, and it helped me hear what she was thinking and it helped ME discuss MY viewpoint on the issues, so she could learn how I wanted her to grow up. Really good stuff. It was started by a divorced dad who wanted to learn how to stay relevant in his girl's life.

Daughters.com - Girls, parents and allies raising strong girls in a world that is still sexist.


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## WorkingWife

It sounds like you did pretty good investigating the situation and working with your daughter.

It does sound like a red flag when you say this Sunday School teacher hates your daughter and that your daughter is a smart a$$. When I've heard a friend or relative say how some teachers/adults "just hate their kid" I've usually thought to myself "because your kid is insufferable..."

If it's just this one teacher, it may be her. But I'd work hard to make sure your daughter is not talking back to adults and being a smart alec. Some people put so much value on being clever and quick witted they overlook manners and learning how to get along with others. Of course it's a fine line to walk because you don't want to squelch her spirit or make her insecure. I feel I was raised very strict and with my naturally meek temperament, I was afraid to say anything to adults and that has not served me well either.

Regarding "bulllying." Frankly, I'm getting sick of hearing the word BULLY. It's gotten so bad it's like people bully other people by calling them bullies over everything now! There is real bullying that is serious, but children have altercations, and not every childhood interaction is going to feel good. It's like there is this movement of adults that think they can remove all angst from childhood by identifying and eradicating "bullying." But the reality is most children are a mixture of perpetrator and victim as they learn to find their way in the world.

The ideal is for your daughter to learn how to stand up for her own rights and not let this simpering little weasel take over with his manipulative whining without calling him names or ridiculing him (unlike what I just did, ha ha). Of course that's a very tall order for a six year old when most adults can't navigate that. 

Regardless it's good that you are involved and talking with your daughter and interested in teaching her! I would just recommend you take it seriously if your daughter is a smart alec. It may feel good to be able to out-smart others verbally, but it is not kind and it does not win you friends.


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## Anonymous07

RandomDude said:


> Well, I'm only trying to see the bigger picture, just how I am, I have their reports, *including reports of others who have no problems with my daughter*, and my own observations.
> 
> I'm sorry, but why does the bolded part matter? It doesn't matter if some or most of the people she interacts with are okay with your daughter, there are still others who have a problem. The numbers game does not matter. I was bullied by a girl in elementary school and her parents would always say "she would never do that. She has a lot of friends who don't have any issues with her." And? So what? She still bullied me and routinely tried to make my life hell.
> 
> I feel I have to be fair in the pursuit of truth, not just take everyone's word for it - not even my daughter's.
> 
> That's fine, but don't just go off of some numbers of most are okay, so the others are lying.
> 
> Agreed, had a talk with ex-wife about this as well. In the past our daughter was rather insensitive, she made fun/teased and not everyone was cool with her behavior. Guess the lesson didn't stick.
> 
> I'll only have my daughter on Wed and Fri however before the weekend, ex-wife/daughter already have their own plans. I think she's better than I am when it comes to teaching empathy anyway.
> 
> Hell I can only imagine how hard this would be if we weren't a team.


It's good for you to teach empathy as well. She needs to see it from you and her mom. Be an example for her and talk about it.


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