# An open request from one of the men



## MEM2020

I would like your help in "reframing" this open ended debate about sex, men and wants vs. needs.

I am going to start with what seems to be a paradox and will try to keep it concise.

I am going to pick two periods during my marriage. I will make each one year for ease of comparison:
1998: 8th year of our marriage
Frequency: 5 times a week on average
Quality of the physical act: 9.9
My emotional response to sex that year: conflicted, often resentful
My W, for reasons that (I understand now) I didnt understand back then, would consistently come to bed late. So I often had to choose between sex and a
full night sleep. She was typically 30 to 60 minutes late. I usually chose sex but we had a lot of conflict over this. Oddly enough she didn't use this: show up late, escalate conflict = get out of sex. She would apologize, defuse me enough for is to start and then it was so good that when it happened a night or two later I couldn't manage to say "nope not tonight".

But that isn't the point of the story. The main point is that by year end things were at best ok from where I sat.

2011: year 22 of marriage
Frequency: about twice a week
Physical quality: we can't really have intercourse die to her condition

My emotional reaction to sex. Is a ten. I know she loves me and wants to connect with me.

I would trade 2012 for 1998 without hesitation.

So from now on when someone,an or woman posts about a lack of sex, let's call it what it is: their partner isn't meeting their EMOTIONAL needs. And by repeatedly rejecting them without honest explanation, their partner is abusing them emotionally. 

If when my W said "ILY", I just looked at her and said, "I don't feel like talking right now, and I did that day after day and when
Asked why said "everything is fine", that would also be emotionally abusive in the same way.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## southern wife

Kinda goes to show that you don't know what you have until it's gone.


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## MEM2020

Feels to me like "overall" things are better. Nice if I could have both, but if I had to choose, I choose where we are now.



wife;649337]Kinda goes to show that you don't know what you have until it's gone. [/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## southern wife

I thought you said you'd trade 2012 for 1998? :scratchhead:


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## MEM2020

Well that was a giant typo. Meant to say would trade 98 for 12


OTE=southern wife;649375]I thought you said you'd trade 2012 for 1998? :scratchhead:[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LovesHerMan

I dunno. We have always had a passionate relationship, but our emotional needs mesh nicely. If you have a husband who meets your emotional needs but does not want to have sex with you, you have a roommate. 

You are willing to forego intercourse because you have a long-term relationship with your wife. Would you have felt the same way if this happened in the first few years of your marriage?

I understand your point about emotional needs being paramount, but most spouses want to express this sexually. Being intensely desired by your partner says you are special, you rock my world, I love everything about you. 

When you have had a tough week and feel beaten up by the world, there is nothing like having a spouse who helps you feel like you are cherished enough to share their body with you.


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## okeydokie

mem, you are a class act buddy

and given your wifes medical issue, she is still willing to be intimate with you even when intercourse is of the table. she sounds like a wonderful wife.

i would feel the same way you do. i just want my wife to want me, other obstacles would not stop us from being happy


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## Jeff74

Good post and I am glad you figured out what is important to you. For me personally, the lack of sex was a physical issue but I don't think it ever felt like it had an impact on my emotional needs...but I guess maybe that is just me..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SunnyT

This is how I see it.... our emotional connection is awesome and our sex life is amazingly awesome.... (due to the emotional connection, right?). I think, if for some reason one of us could not have intercourse for some reason.... I could live with that. We have had such a sexy, creative, AND loving sexlife so far that I think everything else is just gravy! The memories would be enough.


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## MEM2020

Loves,
If we weren't doing "anything" that would be a problem. But that isn't the case at all. We just can't have intercourse because it hurts her. If this had happened 10-15 years ago it would have been more difficult for me then.

Do you think your man would bail if you had chronic pain and couldn't have straight sex but you did "other stuff" with him regularly?




lovesherman said:


> I dunno. We have always had a passionate relationship, but our emotional needs mesh nicely. If you have a husband who meets your emotional needs but does not want to have sex with you, you have a roommate.
> 
> You are willing to forego intercourse because you have a long-term relationship with your wife. Would you have felt the same way if this happened in the first few years of your marriage?
> 
> I understand your point about emotional needs being paramount, but most spouses want to express this sexually. Being intensely desired by your partner says you are special, you rock my world, I love everything about you.
> 
> When you have had a tough week and feel beaten up by the world, there is nothing like having a spouse who helps you feel like you are cherished enough to share their body with you.


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## MEM2020

I have a long, long list of incredible memories. 




SunnyT said:


> This is how I see it.... our emotional connection is awesome and our sex life is amazingly awesome.... (due to the emotional connection, right?). I think, if for some reason one of us could not have intercourse for some reason.... I could live with that. We have had such a sexy, creative, AND loving sexlife so far that I think everything else is just gravy! The memories would be enough.


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## LovesHerMan

MEM11363 said:


> Loves,
> If we weren't doing "anything" that would be a problem. But that isn't the case at all. We just can't have intercourse because it hurts her. If this had happened 10-15 years ago it would have been more difficult for me then.
> 
> Do you think your man would bail if you had chronic pain and couldn't have straight sex but you did "other stuff" with him regularly?


No, I don't think my man would bail. It seems like the point of your thread is that meeting emotional needs should be enough, that people do not have physical needs as well. I don't feel that way.


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## MEM2020

The point of my thread - which I apparently did not succeed in making was this:

For a man, sex IS an emotional need. So all these threads where the man says: she won't have much/any sex with me and the response is "you must not be meeting her emotional needs". My point was:
- If you aren't haveing much/any sex with your man OR
- You make it clear you don't really WANT to be having sex with him when you do connect 
Then:
You aren't meeting his emotional needs

And the general "theme" on many of these threads is very simple: Sex is a "want" not a need, so the man's "focus" is described as a "want" because hey - you can "live" without sex, but womens "focus" are described as "needs". 

In short form:
Her emotional "needs" are compared to his sexual "wants". 

This makes it seem as if the female focus "needs" is more valid/more important than the male focus "which gets described as wants".




lovesherman said:


> No, I don't think my man would bail. It seems like the point of your thread is that meeting emotional needs should be enough, that people do not have physical needs as well. I don't feel that way.


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## VermisciousKnid

MEM11363 said:


> The point of my thread - which I apparently did not succeed in making was this:
> 
> ...
> 
> This makes it seem as if the female focus "needs" is more valid/more important than the male focus "which gets described as wants".


I saw your point, but then again I'm a man. As far as I can tell, women are generally dubious of this fact. It's almost as if there's a desire not to empathize. Doesn't make sense to me, especially since women are more perceptive in general.


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## Deejo

VermisciousKnid said:


> I saw your point, but then again I'm a man. As far as I can tell, women are generally dubious of this fact. It's almost as if there's a desire not to empathize. Doesn't make sense to me, especially since women are more perceptive in general.


I actually laughed out loud at the head-scratching responses. Rather ironic under the circumstances ... yet illustrates the core of the issue perfectly.


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## AFEH

VermisciousKnid said:


> I saw your point, but then again I'm a man. As far as I can tell, women are generally dubious of this fact. It's almost as if there's a desire not to empathize. Doesn't make sense to me, especially since women are more perceptive in general.


They know! Believe me they know and have done so since a young age.


But they thought you knew they know!



Now you know they know, you may want to try working with the belief for a while that women absolutely know just how much you are emotionally attached to sex. Just work with that belief and observe them and observe your responses to their moves, their body language. It is exceptionally revealing.


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## Trenton

What I've learned is that when you're in something, it's hard to see it any way besides your own. When you're in a partnership, the fact that it's hard to see any way besides your own is actually what destroys your relationship.


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## Catherine602

MEM
This may be hard to believe but I had no idea that sex had anything to do with meeting emotional needs for men. 

These are the things that influenced my view of male sexuality. 

* I've heard men talk about woman in terms of what they can get sexually. 

* There is little acknowledgment or compassion for the human being attached to the body.

* Many men say they have no problem having sex with no emotional attachment. 

* I've known of women who have been deceived by men who use the say they are in love to get sex when there is no love.

* I've heard men boast about their sexual exploitation and player activities 

* Men play the numbers game - how many chicks can they get to [email protected] and talk about with their buddies

* I've seen men humiliate ex lovers by posting intimate videos on porn sites, knowing that it will shame the woman. I have never read of these men being called out for their betrayal. But the woman is derided and harassed. 

* 20 - 40 % of women have had bad sexual experiences at the hands of predatory men. I was one. Sexual assault, coerced sex acts, shaming, molestation, date rape.

* Google how to be a player, how to get a girl in bed, how t get a girl to give you a bj on the first date. 

* the statement "if my wife won't do it, I will get it elsewhere" When I hear this - I am certain that that man is not talking about getting love. He talking about getting a sex act for pleasure even w=hen he profess to love his wife.

I don't think I am the only woman influenced by these thing. This may be what you wives see. Step in her shoes and tell me what you see? 

I would say this. I think that for many men, sex is coupled with an emotional only sometimes. Some times it is just pleasure. 

I think the need for bonding sex varies during a man's lifetime, by the state of the relationship, by the desired act and the psychological nature of the individual. Some men never couple love and sex. 

In my opinion, the anger and blame expressed towards women is misplaced. I think the responsibility to change erroneous notions rest with men themselves not women. 

I wish men would identify one message that would give woman a clue about the role of sex in a committed relationship? Where do you find it against the background of all of the cultural garbage? 

Don't blame us.


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## Catherine602

The above is not a feminist rant. It is an honest presentation of what I see. I only learned about what men were really like by reading post and books. I certainly did not absorb it from our culture.

I did not even understand my own husband and I love him deeply. When we were recovery from our problems, he said he thought I knew how emotionally devastating it was when I avoided him. How? He didn't tell me. :scratch head:

I didn't say that, I just listened hoping he would keep talking. This was a pivotal moment. He rarely talks about his emotions although, he is a compassionate man.


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## Catherine602

VermisciousKnid said:


> I saw your point, but then again I'm a man. As far as I can tell, women are generally dubious of this fact. It's almost as if there's a desire not to empathize. Doesn't make sense to me, especially since women are more perceptive in general.


:lol:

That may be but we can't read minds.


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## MEM2020

Catherine,
Lets start with a premise: There is a "bell curve" distribution we can jointly agree to use that represents good people at the far right end of the distribution and bad at the left end and the average folks in the middle. Men and women. 

Really bad men often express that behavior physically and end up in prison. Others express it their dysfunction sexually (the non-violent sociopaths) and project "genuine" interest towards a woman only long enough to put another notch in their belt and move on. 

The guys who are on here posting:
- I do my share at home
- Have tried hard to understand and meet her needs
- Are clearly becoming or already are desperate because they don't feel loved

These guys are at the opposite end of the spectrum. They are "loving" and "rule following". They aren't cheating and don't even really consider that an option. THEY want their WIFE to have sex with them. Because they love her. 

For that ENTIRE SET OF MEN, sex is an EMOTIONAL NEED just as real as any emotional need a woman has. 

The sociopaths aren't on here. After their second or third rejection they are having an affair or multiple affairs. 
1. They aren't rule following - other than the rule of narcissism
2. They don't experience the sex = love response that Tall Role Model, Conrad, Dean, Deejo and I feel. So it is easy for them to "replace" their GF/Wife with another woman as long as she is physically attractive to them.

BTW I am going to pick on Dean for a minute. He recently had an experience that I am all too familiar with. He and his wife started to connect and she felt pain. He stopped she did what my W does and offered to please him. He declined. They held each other and kissed and went to sleep. Think about where that puts him on the bell curve. He often won't even take what is freely offered when it is so "one sided". Now Dean is 'high functioning' nice. So he has a great marriage. 

But most of the male posters who are on here - who are love starved - by being sex starved - are simply "lower functioning" nice. 

For them - as for me - feeling loved via physical intimacy is a need. 





Catherine602 said:


> The above is not a feminist rant. It is an honest presentation of what I see. I only learned about what men were really like by reading post and books. I certainly did not absorb it from our culture.
> 
> I did not even understand my own husband and I love him deeply. When we were recovery from our problems, he said he thought I knew how emotionally devastating it was when I avoided him. How? He didn't tell me. :scratch head:
> 
> I didn't say that, I just listened hoping he would keep talking. This was a pivotal moment. He rarely talks about his emotions although, he is a compassionate man.


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## Catherine602

MEM I realize that now but I completely missed that message and not because I am evil. I just never knew. I was influenced by what I was presented with.

I know many very nice men. In fact, all of my experiences with men after my childhood and bad experience at 15 have been good. This was before my husband and I became more than friends. 

But how would I have known that sex was an emotional need. I never had sex with these guys but they were closel friends.


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## MEM2020

Hey - wait a sec. 

I don't see you as the enemy. Never have. You add a lot of valuable insight and a balanced view here. I think anyone who reads your posts thinks - that is one smart individual. 

I didn't start this thread to critique. I started it because I am asking "us" the men and the women of the board to recognize that the guys who come on here with broken sex lives (with the occassional obvious exception) tend to be the way I described above. And I am asking you and the other women to recognize that and respond to them accordingly. 

And in general I think the women on the board are very helpful to those guys. Just asking you to recognize that those men feel every bit as screwed over and unloved as the women on here whose husbands are not doing ....fill in the blanks....






Catherine602 said:


> MEM I realize that now but I did not miss the message because I was evil. I just never knew. I was influenced by what I was presented wit.
> 
> I know many very nice men. In fact, all of my experiences with men after my childhood and bad experience at 15 have been nice.
> 
> But how would I have known that sex was an emotional need. I never had sex with them but they were closel friends.


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## Catherine602

Sorry I come off as too emphatic. I like this thread and I don't feel anything negative.

I am just saying what comes to mind in an attempt to further the discussion. I see a potential to learn and maybe ID the crux of the problem.

My post was just to let you know where my notion came from. 

So you would understand the way I see the world. 


Thank your for your very kind and affirming comments MEM. You have no idea how it affects me. I am kind of down these days.

No one reading post from ,em on this board would come away thinking that men are anything like the cardboard characters that define them in pop culture.

Someone should make a compilation of them and write a book. Calling all writers. Almostrecovered writes. He off right now though.


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## endlessgrief

What a great thing to read from a man. That was very sweet, thank you for sharing this with us.


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## AFEH

Catherine602 said:


> MEM
> This may be hard to believe but I had no idea that sex had anything to do with meeting emotional needs for men.
> 
> These are the things that influenced my view of male sexuality.
> 
> * I've heard men talk about woman in terms of what they can get sexually.
> 
> * There is little acknowledgment or compassion for the human being attached to the body.
> 
> * Many men say they have no problem having sex with no emotional attachment.
> 
> * I've known of women who have been deceived by men who use the say they are in love to get sex when there is no love.
> 
> * I've heard men boast about their sexual exploitation and player activities
> 
> * Men play the numbers game - how many chicks can they get to [email protected] and talk about with their buddies
> 
> * I've seen men humiliate ex lovers by posting intimate videos on porn sites, knowing that it will shame the woman. I have never read of these men being called out for their betrayal. But the woman is derided and harassed.
> 
> * 20 - 40 % of women have had bad sexual experiences at the hands of predatory men. I was one. Sexual assault, coerced sex acts, shaming, molestation, date rape.
> 
> * Google how to be a player, how to get a girl in bed, how t get a girl to give you a bj on the first date.
> 
> * the statement "if my wife won't do it, I will get it elsewhere" When I hear this - I am certain that that man is not talking about getting love. He talking about getting a sex act for pleasure even w=hen he profess to love his wife.
> 
> I don't think I am the only woman influenced by these thing. This may be what you wives see. Step in her shoes and tell me what you see?
> 
> I would say this. I think that for many men, sex is coupled with an emotional only sometimes. Some times it is just pleasure.
> 
> I think the need for bonding sex varies during a man's lifetime, by the state of the relationship, by the desired act and the psychological nature of the individual. Some men never couple love and sex.
> 
> In my opinion, the anger and blame expressed towards women is misplaced. I think the responsibility to change erroneous notions rest with men themselves not women.
> 
> I wish men would identify one message that would give woman a clue about the role of sex in a committed relationship? Where do you find it against the background of all of the cultural garbage?
> 
> Don't blame us.


And you project all those things you read about “bad men” onto every man! It is indiscriminant and persecutory. You have more or less described the lens through which you see all men. You need different glasses! But can you expand your mind outside of your own head and put new glasses on?

Try it with your husband. Instead of projecting your terrible beliefs about man and sex onto him in a generalistic and persecutory way, look to the man in him and see who he really is. And of course ask him what sex with you means to him! Believe it or not, we are not all the same.



And ask yourself the question “Why am I making my husband suffer for the bad behavior of some men?”.


Maybe I can give you some new glasses. I had sex with my wife from when she was sixteen all the way through until she was fifty-eight! She never said no. No way would she have allowed that if all men are as you describe them. Sex is a gift women give to the man they love. Any man who takes sex that’s not given is an animal.



And for goodness sake stop generalising. Why? Because while you do you will not know who your husband really is. At the moment through all your projections onto him he’s more or less just a figment of your imagination. I very much doubt that he feels you know him very well at all! It must be driving the guy crazy.


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## MEM2020

Bob,
I get the impression that Catherines husband loves her a lot. Hard to believe that he would if she behaved the way you describe below. 




AFEH said:


> And you project all those things you read about “bad men” onto every man! It is indiscriminant and persecutory. You have more or less described the lens through which you see all men. You need different glasses! But can you expand your mind outside of your own head and put new glasses on?
> 
> Try it with your husband. Instead of projecting your terrible beliefs about man and sex onto him in a generalistic and persecutory way, look to the man in him and see who he really is. And of course ask him what sex with you means to him! Believe it or not, we are not all the same.
> 
> 
> 
> And ask yourself the question “Why am I making my husband suffer for the bad behavior of some men?”.
> 
> 
> Maybe I can give you some new glasses. I had sex with my wife from when she was sixteen all the way through until she was fifty-eight! She never said no. No way would she have allowed that if all men are as you describe them. Sex is a gift women give to the man they love. Any man who takes sex that’s not given is an animal.
> 
> 
> 
> And for goodness sake stop generalising. Why? Because while you do you will not know who your husband really is. At the moment through all your projections onto him he’s more or less just a figment of your imagination. I very much doubt that he feels you know him very well at all! It must be driving the guy crazy.


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## AFEH

MEM11363 said:


> Bob,
> I get the impression that Catherines husband loves her a lot. Hard to believe that he would if she behaved the way you describe below.



I’m sure her husband does love her deeply. Yet don’t we all know love is sometimes strange? As in not straight forward, unfathomable.


I assume people behave here as they do anywhere else. So if Catherine is projecting her false beliefs about all men she’ll do it here as well as at home, onto her husband. If she doesn’t then surely she’s just a wind up and in that she’ll be at the least insincere.


But I believe she is sincere. In that she really believes what she says about “man”. Personally I think it’s a delusion. In that it’s not true of all men. But only because I know otherwise, as do you. And Catherine is just beginning to find out. And in that I’m just trying to get Catherine to see her husband as the man he really is.

“Generalising” about a husband or wife is obviously so not the way to go about things. And strangely enough Catherine is one of the first to pounce when a man generalises about women. Surely acceptance for who we are in our marriage is to know that we are well loved and not just a figment of our wife’s imagination.


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## AFEH

I think a lot of men and women get their ideas/concepts/thoughts/beliefs about sex from porn. Whereas for me I’d say 95% of the porn I’ve seen is “ugly and unreal”.

But I grew up in a era where it just wasn’t available. Sure there were some men’s magazines with scantily clad women but that’s about all. Sex between my wife and I was a continuous experiment, we just learnt as we went along. I joked once that it’s lucky we were slow learners because we never seemed to get tired of it. For me, you just can’t beat seeing your wife’s pupils totally dilated! And if that’s not emotion on both sides I don’t know what is.




But that porn sex, that’s something very different. Not a lot if any emotional connection there if any at all and just maybe that’s why some women are confused.


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## okeydokie

Catherine602 said:


> MEM
> This may be hard to believe but I had no idea that sex had anything to do with meeting emotional needs for men.
> 
> These are the things that influenced my view of male sexuality.
> 
> * I've heard men talk about woman in terms of what they can get sexually.
> 
> * There is little acknowledgment or compassion for the human being attached to the body.
> 
> * Many men say they have no problem having sex with no emotional attachment.
> 
> * I've known of women who have been deceived by men who use the say they are in love to get sex when there is no love.
> 
> * I've heard men boast about their sexual exploitation and player activities
> 
> * Men play the numbers game - how many chicks can they get to [email protected] and talk about with their buddies
> 
> * I've seen men humiliate ex lovers by posting intimate videos on porn sites, knowing that it will shame the woman. I have never read of these men being called out for their betrayal. But the woman is derided and harassed.
> 
> * 20 - 40 % of women have had bad sexual experiences at the hands of predatory men. I was one. Sexual assault, coerced sex acts, shaming, molestation, date rape.
> 
> * Google how to be a player, how to get a girl in bed, how t get a girl to give you a bj on the first date.
> 
> * the statement "if my wife won't do it, I will get it elsewhere" When I hear this - I am certain that that man is not talking about getting love. He talking about getting a sex act for pleasure even w=hen he profess to love his wife.
> 
> I don't think I am the only woman influenced by these thing. This may be what you wives see. Step in her shoes and tell me what you see?
> 
> I would say this. I think that for many men, sex is coupled with an emotional only sometimes. Some times it is just pleasure.
> 
> I think the need for bonding sex varies during a man's lifetime, by the state of the relationship, by the desired act and the psychological nature of the individual. Some men never couple love and sex.
> 
> In my opinion, the anger and blame expressed towards women is misplaced. I think the responsibility to change erroneous notions rest with men themselves not women.
> 
> I wish men would identify one message that would give woman a clue about the role of sex in a committed relationship? Where do you find it against the background of all of the cultural garbage?
> 
> Don't blame us.


catherine, do you seriously believe that these traits you list are exclusive to men?


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## Introubledeep

Just my thoughts, short of saying "Get out and never come back", to a man there is nothing, absolutely nothing, that says "I don't love you and I don't want you" more strongly than his wife consistently refusing to have sex with him. Sex begrudgingly given is not gonna cut it here either, I mean sex because she desires her man. To a man, sex releases the emotional response of "I feel loved and accepted by you, and I love you and I need you" the powerful emotional response of "I can't live without you". Don't kid yourselves ladies, men need a healthy sex life to be content in the relationship. It is the key to releasing the emotional response that so many of you crave. If you refuse to meet your mans sexual needs, I GUARANTEE you will kill his emotional interest and love for you. This is a need, not a want. (I am not talking about excessive,unreasonable or abusive sexual demands.)

I think (?) for women it works in reverse, if her man meets her emotional needs it releases her sexual desire for him (I think so anyway).

So if the relatisonship is healthy and strong, I think it goes in a cycle, man provides emotional inputs to woman (courting, pursuing, chasing which makes her feel special and wanted), woman provides sexual intimacy, which releases emotional response from man, man then pursue his woman, etc. To some extent, it works in reverse roles too, but with far less power and consistency.

Sexual satisfaction and emotional satisfaction are mirror images of the same piece of the puzzle. They are not separate things, they are inseperably tied together in a healthy relationship. It is like a person, you can not separate a persons soul from thier body, neither entity can exist without the other (not in this life anyway...I don't know about what happens in the next life). The man is the body, the woman is the soul, they make one being, neither can be complete without the other.

What I have said above is just my thoughts and theories, but what I am saying below is absolute FACT in my personal experience.

Ladies, trust me on this one, if you shutdown sexually I GUARANTEE he will shutdown emotionally. This talk of a man not "needing" sex is total and absolute crap! If you want your marriage to survive in the long term, meeting your mans sexual needs is not an optional extra, it is vital. Equally, your man has a responsibility to do his best to meet your emotional needs, again, not an optional extra, it is vital. They are masculine and feminine versions of the same thing.


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## LovesHerMan

Wow, MEM, I guess this thread has not gone the way you had hoped! Now I see what you meant, but I did not understand from your original post.

I am puzzled, however, by why you think that TAM posters do not offer sympathy to men in low sex marriages. I think of the fiance who was worried that the frequency of sex had gone down. Everyone told him to run. He said he was surprised; he thought the men would tell him to cheat, and the women would call him a pig for wanting sex too much.

As for the Catherine bashing, I totally get where she is coming from. We do not hear many messages from news stories, movies, or songs that indicate that men get emotional needs met through sex. Men in general don't want to seem "needy," so they do not express tender feelings regarding sex. 

When RJD posted about meeting his wife's needs resulting in great sex, he got a bunch of people saying lighten up, sex is just for screwing.

What advice do you think we should offer such men? The usual suggestions are meet her needs or do the emotional 180. What else should we say?


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## AFEH

Introubledeep said:


> *Just my thoughts, short of saying "Get out and never come back", to a man there is nothing, absolutely nothing, that says "I don't love you and I don't want you" more strongly than his wife consistently refusing to have sex with him.* Sex begrudgingly given is not gonna cut it here either, I mean sex because she desires her man. To a man, sex releases the emotional response of "I feel loved and accepted by you, and I love you and I need you" the powerful emotional response of "I can't live without you". Don't kid yourselves ladies, men need a healthy sex life to be content in the relationship. It is the key to releasing the emotional response that so many of you crave. If you refuse to meet your mans sexual needs, I GUARANTEE you will kill his emotional interest and love for you. This is a need, not a want. (I am not talking about excessive,unreasonable or abusive sexual demands.)
> 
> I think (?) for women it works in reverse, if her man meets her emotional needs it releases her sexual desire for him (I think so anyway).
> 
> So if the relatisonship is healthy and strong, I think it goes in a cycle, man provides emotional inputs to woman (courting, pursuing, chasing which makes her feel special and wanted), woman provides sexual intimacy, which releases emotional response from man, man then pursue his woman, etc. To some extent, it works in reverse roles too, but with far less power and consistency.
> 
> Sexual satisfaction and emotional satisfaction are mirror images of the same piece of the puzzle. They are not separate things, they are inseperably tied together in a healthy relationship. It is like a person, you can not separate a persons soul from thier body, neither entity can exist without the other (not in this life anyway...I don't know about what happens in the next life). The man is the body, the woman is the soul, they make one being, neither can be complete without the other.
> 
> What I have said above is just my thoughts and theories, but what I am saying below is absolute FACT in my personal experience.
> 
> Ladies, trust me on this one, if you shutdown sexually I GUARANTEE he will shutdown emotionally. This talk of a man not "needing" sex is total and absolute crap! If you want your marriage to survive in the long term, meeting your mans sexual needs is not an optional extra, it is vital. Equally, your man has a responsibility to do his best to meet your emotional needs, again, not an optional extra, it is vital. They are masculine and feminine versions of the same thing.


And I think that’s exactly how a husband should interpret his wife’s withdrawal of sex.


That is that his wife no longer loves him no matter what words she speaks. Her actions speak far louder than her words and he should believe her actions, not her words.


He should then attempt to find out why she no longer loves him and if it’s possible to get the love back in some way or another. But it did at least one time uncover a wife who’d been in an affair for three years!


----------



## Catherine602

AFEH said:


> I think a lot of men and women get their ideas/concepts/thoughts/beliefs about sex from porn. Whereas for me I’d say 95% of the porn I’ve seen is “ugly and unreal”.
> 
> But I grew up in a era where it just wasn’t available. Sure there were some men’s magazines with scantily clad women but that’s about all. Sex between my wife and I was a continuous experiment, we just learnt as we went along. I joked once that it’s lucky we were slow learners because we never seemed to get tired of it. For me, you just can’t beat seeing your wife’s pupils totally dilated! And if that’s not emotion on both sides I don’t know what is.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But that porn sex, that’s something very different. Not a lot if any emotional connection there if any at all and just maybe that’s why some women are confused.


AFEH
Sometimes you hit the mark so squarely that I think you have a ghost writer up your sleeve or two heads on your neck. One sad and one happy. How can so unreasonable a man come up with such a perceptive observation. :scratchhead:

This is the second time that you mentioned my husband and his dying feelings for me and the very real possibility that he will leave me. 

He is not your wife and I am not you and our relationship is not like the one you and your ex had. I am working on my demons; you are blinded by yours. 

My suggestion AFEH. Your ex did not leave because there was anything wrong with you. She turned against you and attempted to alienate your children. That is a reflection on her not you. 

But she triumphs over you daily because you retain bitterness and you are living in a very dark place. Why? She is winning round after round and you sit like a beaten man. It is not too late for you to get your azz together and come out fighting .... for yourself. 

I am convinced that you can do it. You have been in this pity party long enough. Take your sense of justice, morality and fine powers of perception and turn them to your good now.

I am certain you are capable of coming out of this, judging from the glimpses of the real you that peeks out occasionally. 

if you regained your sense of hope for the future, you set an example to your sons about what it is to be a man. The command of himself and his environment are the hallmarks of being male, are they not? 

Then why do you show your sons otherwise? They see a man who has allowed himself to be bested by a woman who set out to wound him. Why don't you show them what men are really made of. 
Be well.


----------



## LovesHerMan

OK you two. Take it outside. This should not become so personal.


----------



## AFEH

Catherine602 said:


> AFEH
> Sometimes you hit the mark so squarely that I think you have a ghost writer up your sleeve. How can so unreasonable a man come up with such a perceptive observation. :scratch head:
> 
> This is the second time that you mentioned my husband and his dying feelings for me and the very real possibility that he will leave me.
> 
> He is not your wife and I am not you and our relationship is not like the one you and your ex had. I am working on my demons; you are blinded by yours.
> 
> My suggestion AFEH. Your ex did not leave because there was anything wrong with you. She turned against you and attempted to alienate your children. That is a reflection on her not you.
> 
> But she triumphs over you daily because you retain bitterness and you are living in a very dark place. Why? She is winning round after round and you sit like a beaten man. It is not too late for you to get your azz together and come out fighting .... for yourself.
> 
> I am convinced that you can do it. You have been in this pity party long enough. Take your sense of justice, morality and fine powers of perception and turn them to your good now.
> 
> I am certain you are capable of coming out of this, judging from the glimpses of the real you that peeks out occasionally.
> 
> if you regained your sense of hope for the future, you set an example to your sons about what it is to be a man. The command of himself and his environment are the hallmarks of being male, are they not?
> 
> Then why do you show your sons otherwise? They see a man who has allowed himself to be bested by a woman who set out to wound him. Why don't you show them what men are really made of.
> Be well.


I did not anywhere say your husband has dying feelings for you. Again you use strawman arguments and yet again you are deluded.



And just why are you here if you have no serious problems in your marriage? Are you here just to shoot the breeze or maybe you are here just to wind men up. A bit like a troll maybe?

You keep refering to man as some kind of evil. Are you really that blind, that unaware and sleep walking to think that that does not reflect in your marriage?

Don't you as you inferred withhold sex from your husband? If so you are one of the withholders, punishing your husband by withholding sex!


----------



## AFEH

lovesherman said:


> OK you two. Take it outside. This should not become so personal.


Sometimes. Just sometimes awakening and understanding comes through conflict.


----------



## Deejo

Trenton said:


> What I've learned is that when you're in something, it's hard to see it any way besides your own. When you're in a partnership, the fact that it's hard to see any way besides your own is actually what destroys your relationship.


Simple. Brilliant. True. 

Tragically true.


----------



## southern wife

AFEH said:


> Sometimes. Just sometimes awakening and understanding comes through conflict.


Just like in a real marriage!  :smthumbup:


----------



## sisters359

Mem, I understand, appreciate, and agree with what you are saying. Catherine is correct, too--women experience a lot of men and male behavior that suggests that sex has nothing to do with men's emotional needs. 

But men have an equally unfair perception of women--that women are childish and will use sex as a weapon. It's called "withholding sex," as though it is an intentional act just to punish the man. 

Much as sex is an emotional need for some men, the loss of desire for women for their spouse is an emotional response for women. I know you think that women should let their man try to ignite that desire--but if the cause is emotional, the act of letting him try to ignite is itself quite unpleasant. It is like someone feeding you cake when you are not at all hungry. The cake may taste good, but you still feel awful afterwards. 

It is a two-way street, but if the men are the ones on here looking for help, then they are the only ones who can be reached. I have noticed that there are 2 patterns to the men whose wives don't want sex with them: those who let their wives get away with bad behavior early in the relationship, and those who themselves are NOT being good spouses, sharing in the responsibilities of the family, etc. 

I appreciate the "man up" and 180 ideas b/c basically, they are simply telling men to quit putting up with rude behavior from their wives, expect their wives to act like adults, and see what happens. Of course, it isn't cast in that way, but that's for another discussion.

We are really saying the same things, but understanding them in very different ways. What I know and that most women know is that if you go ahead and have sex with someone when you lack desire, it makes things worse. Furthermore, most women do not reach the point of avoiding sex until their emotional needs have not been met for a long, long time. But, if the wives were on here asking for advice, I would encourage them to try to initiate and have sex more, b/c THEY are the ones asking-and it will help reduce the man's resentment. Then, after sex is re-established, the woman can start asking for her needs to be met. In a lot of cases, this will happen--but in others it won't. There are a lot of childish and selfish men out there, too. And they may not grow up as long as they are getting their candy. Fortunately, this is the exception, not the rule (in the cases of both men and women who are incapable of acting like mature adults).


----------



## AFEH

lovesherman said:


> Wow, MEM, I guess this thread has not gone the way you had hoped! Now I see what you meant, but I did not understand from your original post.
> 
> I am puzzled, however, by why you think that TAM posters do not offer sympathy to men in low sex marriages. I think of the fiance who was worried that the frequency of sex had gone down. Everyone told him to run. He said he was surprised; he thought the men would tell him to cheat, and the women would call him a pig for wanting sex too much.
> 
> As for the Catherine bashing, I totally get where she is coming from. *We do not hear many messages from news stories, movies, or songs that indicate that men get emotional needs met through sex.* Men in general don't want to seem "needy," so they do not express tender feelings regarding sex.
> 
> When RJD posted about meeting his wife's needs resulting in great sex, he got a bunch of people saying lighten up, sex is just for screwing.
> 
> What advice do you think we should offer such men? The usual suggestions are meet her needs or do the emotional 180. What else should we say?


People typically find what they seek, what they are looking for and can be blind to what they’re not looking for even though it’s right under their nose! Most especially in this internet era. I just Googled “Emotions and sex” and got nearly 90 million results in just 0.27 seconds. I was going to paste some of the links here, but surely you can do that as I’ll just find what I’m seeking.

But if you seek positive, good things about men and their emotions wrt sex you will surely find them.


----------



## Catherine602

lovesherman said:


> We do not hear many messages from news stories, movies, or songs that indicate that men get emotional needs met through sex. Men in general don't want to seem "needy," so they do not express tender feelings regarding sex.


You said exactly what I was trying to say only much better. Maybe I should use less words and write with more precision.


----------



## Bottled Up

Introubledeep said:


> Just my thoughts, short of saying "Get out and never come back", to a man there is nothing, absolutely nothing, that says "I don't love you and I don't want you" more strongly than his wife consistently refusing to have sex with him. Sex begrudgingly given is not gonna cut it here either, I mean sex because she desires her man. To a man, sex releases the emotional response of "I feel loved and accepted by you, and I love you and I need you" the powerful emotional response of "I can't live without you". Don't kid yourselves ladies, men need a healthy sex life to be content in the relationship. It is the key to releasing the emotional response that so many of you crave. If you refuse to meet your mans sexual needs, I GUARANTEE you will kill his emotional interest and love for you. This is a need, not a want. (I am not talking about excessive,unreasonable or abusive sexual demands.)
> 
> I think (?) for women it works in reverse, if her man meets her emotional needs it releases her sexual desire for him (I think so anyway).
> 
> So if the relatisonship is healthy and strong, I think it goes in a cycle, man provides emotional inputs to woman (courting, pursuing, chasing which makes her feel special and wanted), woman provides sexual intimacy, which releases emotional response from man, man then pursue his woman, etc. To some extent, it works in reverse roles too, but with far less power and consistency.
> 
> Sexual satisfaction and emotional satisfaction are mirror images of the same piece of the puzzle. They are not separate things, they are inseperably tied together in a healthy relationship. It is like a person, you can not separate a persons soul from thier body, neither entity can exist without the other (not in this life anyway...I don't know about what happens in the next life). The man is the body, the woman is the soul, they make one being, neither can be complete without the other.
> 
> What I have said above is just my thoughts and theories, but what I am saying below is absolute FACT in my personal experience.
> 
> Ladies, trust me on this one, if you shutdown sexually I GUARANTEE he will shutdown emotionally. This talk of a man not "needing" sex is total and absolute crap! If you want your marriage to survive in the long term, meeting your mans sexual needs is not an optional extra, it is vital. Equally, your man has a responsibility to do his best to meet your emotional needs, again, not an optional extra, it is vital. They are masculine and feminine versions of the same thing.


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:
This post is perfect, because it summarizes *precisely* the crux of how the "give and take" in any relationship works. It is a cycle, based on a balance of exchanges. If the balance of the scale starts tipping one way then it gains perpetual motion in offsetting the balance, making it harder for repairs to be done the longer / more it tips.

I found TAM in a hasty search trying to find out what was causing my wife's low libido, only to start discovering after a few weeks of reading that *I had been causing the problem* all along, and for many years. I was completely oblivious to some of the damage I was building into my relationship simply because I just didn't know any better... I thought the relationship was fine until something started directly affecting me, which was the lack of sex. My wife had even dropped a few hints to me (like "I'm bored" and "I don't feel special") just before I found this place and I really didn't understand the true underlying nature of what she was trying to tell me, because I didn't have the necessary insight at the time. Only after I found TAM and therefore read some recommended books did I start fully understanding the differences and needs of both genders within a relationship, and my eyes started opening up to what I was doing wrong in my own relationship.

Trenton is right... We often only see our own way in a relationship. Sometimes you need a true awakening to fully understand the other half of your relationship. Then you need to make a total effort to ensure you're always nurturing that other half to sustain a happy relationship. It's the cycle of balance.


----------



## Deejo

sisters359 said:


> What I know and that most women know is that if you go ahead and have sex with someone when you lack desire, it makes things worse. Furthermore, most women do not reach the point of avoiding sex until their emotional needs have not been met for a long, long time. But, if the wives were on here asking for advice, I would encourage them to try to initiate and have sex more, b/c THEY are the ones asking-and it will help reduce the man's resentment. Then, after sex is re-established, the woman can start asking for her needs to be met.


I firmly agree with your first point. Not so sure I agree with your second ... particularly in light of the kind of man and relationship dynamic that MEM is illustrating, and that we most frequently see here on the boards.
Emotionally 'clueless' guys don't seek out marriage forums. Not suggesting that all of the men that post about sexless marriages are model husbands, but many have certainly tried to be loving and attentive ... often times too much so.

I thought MEM's request was remarkably straightforward, clear, fair and presented from a very 'neutral' perspective.

In particular, the refusing spouses inability or unwillingness to look at, or discuss 'why is this happening?' and 'how can we improve it?'
The more common methodology is continued minimizing, blame-shifting, or blatant disrespect and/or mockery.

Point being that his initial post didn't resonate. Either it wasn't understood, or perceived as a veiled criticism or attack. And that kind of sums it up for me. There is a point where two people 'resonate' and make beautiful music ... but the moment you stop paying attention to the music ... you run the risk of making noise instead. And nobody likes noise. It's annoying. It's diminishing, and all the more frustrating when you make all reasonable efforts to get back to the music but you still get noise ... and the only way to make the noise stop, is to stop playing and leave the band.


----------



## AFEH

I wonder what emotions a man feels about sex with his wife? For me there was the “looking forward to it” phase. I was always full of optimism because my wife never said no. So I could plan say a walk amongst the dunes by the beach or even the use of a beach hut with the full expectation that we’d have very enjoyable sex. Or maybe a walk in the woods, against a tree or under a tree in a cornfield. Or a cycle across the moors thinking about sex with her in the Inn with the four poster bed when away for a weekend.

All that emotional optimism and expectation was mine for a very long time. It is HIGHLY motivational and full of feel good factors just thinking about and planning sex. It is one of the reasons I did so much for my wife. That and amongst other things her very fine cooking.

These things aren’t rational in the sense that it’s far more emotional than rational. It is subjective. Not objective. But I don’t think it is irrational. Maybe it is to some. But when you think about it and rationalise it you can just see how even thinking about sex is emotional. But then again I am a romantic.

And then there’s the act itself. Absolutely full of those feel good endorphins, desire and passion. Sometimes my mind used to swim in them, such were the emotions I felt when making love with my wife. Apart from alcohol and nicotine I’ve never taken any other drugs in my life. I got all the highs I ever needed or wanted from my wife.


I honestly don’t know what I would have done, how I would have behaved if my wife had withheld sex from me. Even after a big argument she still never denied me. It’s how we used to make up. In fact thinking about it, I withheld whereas my wife didn’t. On a few occasions I withheld by not initiating but could never past more than five or six days.


----------



## AFEH

MEM. I think what may be missing in this scenario is the bonding created through good sex with a wife. It’s a massive bonding and I’m guessing it’s the most emotionally intimate bonding that goes on between husband and wife. 

I know I keep on about my wife never saying no and the length of time we were together but I don’t do so out of bragging. Rather to say, a bit like you “Yes it is possible and yes us men do need it and yes it is emotional!”.

In my case after such a long time together I can’t even begin to imagine having sex with another woman. It seems neither my mind or my heart wants to go there. And I think this is for a few reasons, one of them being that I’d betray the memory of my wife. How crazy and irrational is that! Another is I just can’t or don’t want to believe that it would ever be as good as with my wife and as such I’d be disappointed and therefore let the new woman down somehow.

Are these things rational. I don’t know and neither do I care if they are or not. But they are for me emotional. Very emotional.

And I think a heck of a lot of that has come about because of the very powerful and very intimate bond we built between us with sex over our decades together.

Some people just can’t understand this. Even my elder son reckons I’m not letting go and he’s maybe right. But I at least don’t/can’t just let go. It is not that easy and those friends of mine that know that tell me I’m doing exceptionally well. These things are just so subjective via the emotions.


We bond with others through shared experiences, through working on projects as a team and through working as a team through adversity. And in teams in sports like soccer, football etc. etc.

But I’m not aware of a bond greater than that created through loving sex with a man’s wife. I’m just not aware of a greater bond. I think it does exist for some women, in that their bond with their children can be greater than their bond with their husband.


----------



## Catherine602

AFEH said:


> I wonder what emotions a man feels about sex with his wife? For me there was the “looking forward to it” phase. I was always full of optimism because my wife never said no. So I could plan say a walk amongst the dunes by the beach or even the use of a beach hut with the full expectation that we’d have very enjoyable sex. Or maybe a walk in the woods, against a tree or under a tree in a cornfield. Or a cycle across the moors thinking about sex with her in the Inn with the four poster bed when away for a weekend.
> 
> All that emotional optimism and expectation was mine for a very long time. It is HIGHLY motivational and full of feel good factors just thinking about and planning sex. It is one of the reasons I did so much for my wife. That and amongst other things her very fine cooking.
> 
> These things aren’t rational in the sense that it’s far more emotional than rational. It is subjective. Not objective. But I don’t think it is irrational. Maybe it is to some. But when you think about it and rationalise it you can just see how even thinking about sex is emotional. But then again I am a romantic.
> 
> And then there’s the act itself. Absolutely full of those feel good endorphins, desire and passion. Sometimes my mind used to swim in them, such were the emotions I felt when making love with my wife. Apart from alcohol and nicotine I’ve never taken any other drugs in my life. I got all the highs I ever needed or wanted from my wife.
> 
> 
> I honestly don’t know what I would have done, how I would have behaved if my wife had withheld sex from me. Even after a big argument she still never denied me. It’s how we used to make up. In fact thinking about it, I withheld whereas my wife didn’t. On a few occasions I withheld by not initiating but could never past more than five or six days.


This describes perfectly what sex aught to be like between two people who love and care about each other.

You and your wife were compatible and had similar attitudes towards sex. She did not do what many women do and that is to allow day to day activities interfere with making love to the person most important to them.

I look at what it got her, a happy emotionally connected husband. 

Your description should be a "must read". You have posted before about this. There are so many heart rending post from men who are in low/no sex marriages but very few clear and emotionally ladened description of those who are not. 

It would be nice if you could start a thread describing what it is like to have a relationship like this. 

Many of your descriptions are buried in threads of others and some readers may miss it.

I like to read it because it touches my heart to hear the male view of the good side of sex in marriage. 

It confirms what I know intellectually but have a hard time really understanding. But that's me, not anyone else. 

Thanks for this.


----------



## Deejo

'Bond' is a very appropriate word. And you summed it up quite well. Especially when it comes to loving your spouse ... and making love with them. I remember that feeling. It is not something easily replaced ... even if you are having sex with someone else.

My wife without question would state that the bond she feels for her children will ALWAYS outweigh the bond she would feel with any partner.

She was adopted. Our son and daughter are the only blood relatives she has in the world. Caught me off guard when she put it that way several years ago.


----------



## Jeff74

Interesting thread for sure. I personally don't feel the sex/emotional connection but after reading through this thread I can understand how others connect the two.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Bottled Up

It's possible that the emotional connection from sex that AFEH speaks of is more due to the nature of one's own personal love language than just being a guy?

If your primary love language is physical touch, then by all means it is your primary means of fulfillment in your relationship despite whether you're a male or female.

The need for sex could be a primitive male drive type of need, but having a physical touch love language could in fact build an additional layer of depth for fulfillment-needs in an individual in order to bond with their mate to the fullest.

In Jeff74's case, I'm willing to bet physical touch is NOT his primary love language, and therefore sex isn't as crucial to him in order to bond emotionally with a mate.


----------



## sisters359

Deejo said:


> Emotionally 'clueless' guys don't seek out marriage forums.


Ah, but they do! They are the ones whose wives are having affairs or whose wives have walked away. 

I truly understand that some marital problems are primarily caused by one person, a partner with borderline personality or some other mental health issue. But in most cases, a happily married spouse--or even just one at the early stages of unhappiness--does not jump into an affair. A man who thinks "everything is fine" because he got his wife to get off his back about her needs and wants is completely clueless, too. 

Anyway, I agree completely with the idea that many men need sex to feel emotionally connected. What I see as lacking in that statement is an understanding of what it takes to get most women to the point that they will actually refuse--repeatedly--to have sex with their husbands, and how dangerous it is to suggest that they just try. I have known more than a few women who got to the point where they wanted to puke if their husband tried to touch them--but these women were committed to marriage and never thought they could end up leaving. But they did--some cheated first, some didn't. Same story in the background, however, which is why I don't believe the idea that cheaters "rewrite" their history. Most female cheaters have already told close friends/family about the marital problems.

It's a conundrum, that's for sure.


----------



## AFEH

Jeff74 said:


> Interesting thread for sure. I personally don't feel the sex/emotional connection but after reading through this thread I can understand how others connect the two.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Some people are simply more emotional than others. That’s all it is. For me some others have what’s described as “low or flat affect” in that for some reason or other events that’d have a deep emotional affect on me simply don’t affect them. Carl Jung talks about this in his personality types. There are those that rely more on how they think about things and there are those that rely more on they feel about things. I’m one of the latter while you’re probably one of the former. That feeling thing is intuition linked to our emotions.

My wife is also a thinker, in the main. She saw me at times as quite emotional whereas I saw her at times as quite cold. But I know since our separation she has been feeling exceptionally strong emotions, breaking down and crying for example while out shopping when it really hits her. It’s at times like these when we truly understand the power of our emotions. Sometimes they just take us over and it takes some time to regain control, composure. But pity that it is a person has to suffer a very serious loss before they know these things. I don’t think any of us is truly immune, except for maybe psychopaths.


But everyone reading this thread will be either a thinker or feeler! And those that are thinkers will just not get it no matter how it’s put to them. You are doing very well though in that you can see how things can be for other people. Even though you don’t feel these things yourself!


----------



## Tall Average Guy

sisters359 said:


> Anyway, I agree completely with the idea that many men need sex to feel emotionally connected. What I see as lacking in that statement is an understanding of what it takes to get most women to the point that they will actually refuse--repeatedly--to have sex with their husbands, and how dangerous it is to suggest that they just try. I have known more than a few women who got to the point where they wanted to puke if their husband tried to touch them--but these women were committed to marriage and never thought they could end up leaving. But they did--some cheated first, some didn't. Same story in the background, however, which is why I don't believe the idea that cheaters "rewrite" their history. Most female cheaters have already told close friends/family about the marital problems.


If many of the posters here are to be believed, they in fact asked their wife about these problems with no real answer. Too often, particularly in the beginning, the wife does not know or can not effectively communicate what is wrong. So the downward spiral starts, with one spouse asking, the other not giving a real answer but not being quite so interested in dealing, thereby causing the asking spouse to pull back.

I know that personally, my wife has never been able to really articulate why her attraction for me decreased. I took steps to get back closer to where I was when we dated, and things are much better. But five years ago, when I raised it, the best she could give me was that she just wasn't that interested. If I let it, I could still get very angry over what felt like a vague brush-off answer to what I considered an important question. I hope that by understanding the importance of this issue, the LD spouse can focus on working on the issue.


----------



## Acorn

Tall Average Guy said:


> If many of the posters here are to be believed, they in fact asked their wife about these problems with no real answer. Too often, particularly in the beginning, the wife does not know or can not effectively communicate what is wrong. So the downward spiral starts, with one spouse asking, the other not giving a real answer but not being quite so interested in dealing, thereby causing the asking spouse to pull back.


:iagree:

I also think that things like getting caught up in work for an extended time, not resuming the desire for a connection after the birth of a child after an extended time, or an overcommitment to family and/or children send a message to men that perhaps the women do not understand they are sending.


----------



## AFEH

sisters359 said:


> Ah, but they do! They are the ones whose wives are having affairs or whose wives have walked away.
> 
> I truly understand that some marital problems are primarily caused by one person, a partner with borderline personality or some other mental health issue. But in most cases, a happily married spouse--or even just one at the early stages of unhappiness--does not jump into an affair. A man who thinks "everything is fine" because he got his wife to get off his back about her needs and wants is completely clueless, too.
> 
> Anyway, I agree completely with the idea that many men need sex to feel emotionally connected. What I see as lacking in that statement is an understanding of what it takes to get most women to the point that they will actually refuse--repeatedly--to have sex with their husbands, and how dangerous it is to suggest that they just try. I have known more than a few women who got to the point where they wanted to puke if their husband tried to touch them--but these women were committed to marriage and never thought they could end up leaving. But they did--some cheated first, some didn't. Same story in the background, however, which is why I don't believe the idea that cheaters "rewrite" their history. Most female cheaters have already told close friends/family about the marital problems.
> 
> It's a conundrum, that's for sure.


I think a lot of women rely waaaay too much on their behaviour over time and body language to communicate with their husbands. These women actually believe that their husbands know what they are saying, talking about, with their body language and behaviour! Can you believe that?


And not only that, some women put such a massive reliance on their husband’s behaviour and body language that they never ever feel the need to check with their husbands as to whether they are correct or incorrect in their interpretation. Can you believe that!


But we don’t!!! We do not understand your body language and we’re far more likely to make an incorrect interpretation than we ever are to make a correct one. And in that it is my belief that men are “Behaviour and body language stupid”!!! We’re complete numskulls relative to women in as far as communicating without spoken words is concerned.

Whereas women are the absolute experts at understanding and communicating without a word ever needing to be actually spoken. Where women go wrong, in my mind at least, is in thinking that men are the same as they are in how we communicate.



It is a “great communication divide” between male and female, men and women. And hence a woman can go for years “communicating” to her husband that she no longer loves him never once using the words “I no longer love you”. And then they wonder why their husband’s don’t up their game, get reconnected and the marriage eventually ends. To me that’s some sort of insanity.


----------



## Deejo

sisters359 said:


> Ah, but they do! They are the ones whose wives are having affairs or whose wives have walked away.
> 
> I truly understand that some marital problems are primarily caused by one person, a partner with borderline personality or some other mental health issue. But in most cases, a happily married spouse--or even just one at the early stages of unhappiness--does not jump into an affair. A man who thinks "everything is fine" because he got his wife to get off his back about her needs and wants is completely clueless, too.
> 
> Anyway, I agree completely with the idea that many men need sex to feel emotionally connected. What I see as lacking in that statement is an understanding of what it takes to get most women to the point that they will actually refuse--repeatedly--to have sex with their husbands, and how dangerous it is to suggest that they just try. I have known more than a few women who got to the point where they wanted to puke if their husband tried to touch them--but these women were committed to marriage and never thought they could end up leaving. But they did--some cheated first, some didn't. Same story in the background, however, which is why I don't believe the idea that cheaters "rewrite" their history. Most female cheaters have already told close friends/family about the marital problems.
> 
> It's a conundrum, that's for sure.


Not trying to be argumentative, but your analysis sounds perilously close to it's inherently 'his' fault if a man's wife wants to puke at the thought of his touching her. And further, you are outlining exactly the circumstances that MEM is requesting that people pause and reconsider. You are presuming that your average guy, in your average sexless marriage, just doesn't 'get it', isn't listening, and isn't giving his wife what she needs, she is making perfectly clear what it is she does need ... and her husband is just a knuckle-head.

Not trying to put words in your mouth, but that's how the second part of your response came across. 

And I gotta tell ya' ... that certainly wasn't my circumstance, and I don't know of many where it was.

I'm not claiming that one is more prevalent or valid than the other. They both suck. It is a failure on both parties part, and requires both parties taking responsibility ... I think THAT is where the issue lies for most.

It's much too common to get caught up in right-fighting instead of recognizing, acknowledging, and reconciling. 

And the biggest thing that stood out to me as overlooked in MEM's post ... it was gender neutral. It was about the refusing spouses lack of being open to their partner ... regardless of gender.


----------



## AFEH

*Dean* said:


> Many men when they are young over use the "Love" word.
> 
> It's sometimes used to get in a ladies pants.
> 
> I really question the men that say they have a deep love for their
> wife, if they don't feel this bond.
> 
> Do they really know what a deep love for one woman is?


I was sat with married friends the other week. I’ve got to the point where I really try not to talk about my marriage to people, but for one reason or another it came up. My female friend said something like “You should be over it by now, just put it behind you and move on”. Her husband replied with something like “He’s been with his wife for longer than you’ve been born! It will take him time”.

One understood my situation the other didn’t. And for those that tell me I should be over it by now it does make me wonder what “bond” they feel with their partner. But then again I never once thought that breaking that bond would be so emotionally painful.

There is a name for it, Attachment Trauma. When the bond is broken we literally feel traumatised and our emotions very quickly take us over, control us. For some like me it takes a long time to sort it all out and regain some form of control. But it is a deep and profound learning experience.


----------



## okeydokie

Tall Average Guy said:


> If many of the posters here are to be believed, they in fact asked their wife about these problems with no real answer. Too often, particularly in the beginning, the wife does not know or can not effectively communicate what is wrong. So the downward spiral starts, with one spouse asking, the other not giving a real answer but not being quite so interested in dealing, thereby causing the asking spouse to pull back.
> 
> I know that personally, my wife has never been able to really articulate why her attraction for me decreased. I took steps to get back closer to where I was when we dated, and things are much better. But five years ago, when I raised it, the best she could give me was that she just wasn't that interested. If I let it, I could still get very angry over what felt like a vague brush-off answer to what I considered an important question. I hope that by understanding the importance of this issue, the LD spouse can focus on working on the issue.


i have asked my wife on numerous occasions, during very serious discussions, what it is I can do to improve for her. what it is she needs from me to make things better. i was looking right into her eyes, with every shred of sincerity, and i get...................."i dont know"

and you know what, i believe her, she doesnt know. not much i can do about that. at least i feel like i have tried in ernest to fix us.


----------



## okeydokie

*Dean* said:


> That drive in men for sex....sex....sex, sometimes I think that men love in different stages.
> Many don't found that one where she is the "ONE". Where the deep love for that one
> woman comes from. Maybe it's that "ONE" woman where that tight bond is developed.
> You never feel it, until it happens, you truly find her.
> 
> It's a much deeper love than your "First Love".


i found her, i committed to her, i provide for her and i want to be intimate with her and only her.

she loves me, she provides for me (non-sexual) and she wants to be intimate with me........about 1-2 times a month


----------



## LovesHerMan

okeydokie said:


> i have asked my wife on numerous occasions, during very serious discussions, what it is I can do to improve for her. what it is she needs from me to make things better. i was looking right into her eyes, with every shred of sincerity, and i get...................."i dont know"
> 
> and you know what, i believe her, she doesnt know. not much i can do about that. at least i feel like i have tried in ernest to fix us.


Okie:

Do you think that a counselor could drag the reason out of her? I hate to see a faithful, loving man miss out on a passionate marriage.


----------



## Deejo

okeydokie said:


> i have asked my wife on numerous occasions, during very serious discussions, what it is I can do to improve for her. what it is she needs from me to make things better. i was looking right into her eyes, with every shred of sincerity, and i get...................."i dont know"
> 
> and you know what, i believe her, she doesnt know. not much i can do about that. at least i feel like i have tried in ernest to fix us.


Same. Was a day of sadness and clarity when I chose to believe her and move on.

I'm now trying to decide if we have thread-jacked MEM's post ...


----------



## AFEH

*Dean* said:


> That drive in men for sex....sex....sex, sometimes I think that men love in different stages.
> Many don't found that one where she is the "ONE". Where the deep love for that one
> woman comes from. Maybe it's that "ONE" woman where that tight bond is developed.
> You never feel it, until it happens, you truly find her.
> 
> It's a much deeper love than your "First Love". That saying, you never forget your "First Love" is true.
> Many men get their "First Love" to soon, they are not Mature, not completely ready for it. I believe
> that if you are lucky and stay with her, it can develop into that deep love.


I would say that drive in men for love …. love …. love. But that’s me!


My wife was my first love, in that she was the only woman I ever wanted to get married to. I fell in love immediately when I saw her, I didn’t even know her name. I don’t know if that’s crazy, I really don’t care if it is. It’s just me, who I am. And if a love gets any deeper than one which last for over 40 years I'd be truly surprised!


----------



## Catherine602

Is it just me and my over sensitive nature or is it real. 

Does anyone notice that generalizing statement about woman go unchallenged?

Where are the voices offering a counter argument to the broad brush used to depict woman?? 

Would it not help? One person says something that has no validity and 10 people agree. So it must be true, right? 

When inaccurate statements go unchallenged, the hoped for exploratory exchange that I imagine MEM wanted to engender, turns into the same old rehashing of old struggles. 

Lets challenge each other. No one person, man or woman, has any more blind spots than the other.


----------



## Deejo

Catherine602 said:


> Is it just me and my over sensitive nature or is it real.
> 
> Does anyone notice that generalizing statement about woman go unchallenged?
> 
> Where are the voices offering a counter argument to the broad brush used to depict woman??
> 
> Would it not help? One person says something that has no validity and 10 people agree. So it must be true, right?
> 
> When inaccurate statements go unchallenged, the hoped for exploratory exchange that I imagine MEM wanted to engender, turns into the same old rehashing of old struggles.
> 
> Lets challenge each other. No one person, man or woman, has any more blind spots than the other.


Yes ... it's just you. 

Let's reassert ...

The premise of the thread has nothing to do with women being the 'bad guy' in sexless relationships.

The premise is that regardless of gender ... if one partner is striving to improve things emotionally, or sexually, and the other partner is ignorant to those overtures or simply has no desire to change the dynamic ... and continue to reject, ignore, or blame-shift ... then they are being emotionally abusive.

That's the premise. And if we leave gender bias out of it, it seems pretty hard to argue with, wouldn't you agree?


----------



## okeydokie

Catherine602 said:


> Is it just me and my over sensitive nature or is it real.
> 
> Does anyone notice that generalizing statement about woman go unchallenged?
> 
> Where are the voices offering a counter argument to the broad brush used to depict woman??
> 
> Would it not help? One person says something that has no validity and 10 people agree. So it must be true, right?
> 
> When inaccurate statements go unchallenged, the hoped for exploratory exchange that I imagine MEM wanted to engender, turns into the same old rehashing of old struggles.
> 
> Lets challenge each other. No one person, man or woman, has any more blind spots than the other.


i really do try to stay gender nuetral in most cases, i didnt start out that way on here but i learned that most things work both ways. i have said on here numerous times, if posters did not identify their gender and only used the word spouse/partner to refer to their SO, theis site would be boring 

in matters involving my wife and i, i see enequities in our relationship and i will point them out, but i dont pretend that all or even most women act just like her


----------



## okeydokie

damnit deejo, you beat me by 4 minutes and said it better


----------



## Deejo

Several men, myself included have shared their personal experience as a result of having been on the receiving end of a marriage gone wrong. I think therein lies the distraction.

I don't believe that MEM or any of the boys in the Ladies Lounge are trying to insinuate that 'generally' women are to blame.

From my perspective, 'generally' an unwillingness or inability to reframe the discussion as MEM points out is what leads us back to the corpse-strewn trenches of pinning it on either gender.


----------



## AFEH

MEM11363 said:


> So from now on when someone,an or woman posts about a lack of sex, let's call it what it is: their partner isn't meeting their EMOTIONAL needs. And by repeatedly rejecting them without honest explanation, their partner is abusing them emotionally.





Deejo said:


> Yes ... it's just you.
> 
> Let's reassert ...
> 
> The premise of the thread has nothing to do with women being the 'bad guy' in sexless relationships.
> 
> The premise is that regardless of gender ... if one partner is striving to improve things emotionally, or sexually, and the other partner is ignorant to those overtures or simply has no desire to change the dynamic ... and continue to reject, ignore, or blame-shift ... then they are being emotionally abusive.
> 
> That's the premise. And if we leave gender bias out of it, it seems pretty hard to argue with, wouldn't you agree?


:scratchhead:

In that I take it that MEM is saying that for men, sex IS an emotional need. In that it is not a want but a need.

And that's his key message and something he's trying to get some form of agreement on or recognition of.

And as such there is a gender bias. And a great big one at that!


----------



## okeydokie

sex sounds pedestrian. can i replace that with i want intimacy with the woman i am in love with and committed to?


----------



## Deejo

okeydokie said:


> sex sounds pedestrian. can i replace that with i want intimacy with the woman i am in love with and committed to?


Yes. Yes, you may.

Because THAT is the loss that we are actually talking about, regardless of whether it is measured in sex, quality time, communication, gifts or acts of service. 

Relationships rot on the vine and die when intimacy goes away.
Intimacy is what forges that word I have come to like so much ... 'bond'.


----------



## MEM2020

Deejo,
Not a threadjack at all. 


UOTE=Deejo;651301]Same. Was a day of sadness and clarity when I chose to believe her and move on.

I'm now trying to decide if we have thread-jacked MEM's post ...[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## DanglingDaisy

Interesting thread...I'm sitting here trying to absorb everything-and definitely appreciate the men's perspective.

Sex has always been the issue in our marriage. It confuses me,if in fact it's true that men's emotional satisfaction comes from their sex life with their partners....I was in the boat that many men here have complained about-lack of sex with their partner. It got to a point that getting it once every two to three months was normal,and emotionally I *did* need that intimate connection that was almost non existant for 10 years. 

LOL One thing you couldn't blame me for,was not being patient

I understand my unique situations is different than most. I've always been interested in a sexual relationship with my partner. I spent many years waiting out his past drug/alcohol induced impotence. As his sex drive starting coming back,it turned out he had severe guilt/anguish about sex and masturbation. When his sex drive came back on line a couple of years ago...I hear the dreaded "I see you more as a wife and mother than a sexual being". That's where his idea of imagining me with other men came from. To want something other men desired. Other men have shown affinity for me,but the truth is I wanted him and ONLY him and my continued stride to keep him sexually excited and engaged as many have successfully done,has worn me down. 

So tell me,if a man equates sex=emotional needs...explain this situation?

In our case, if he equated sex to emotional needs,it was always available to him. Instead,he would resent me-act like a woman who resented the "pressure":scratchhead: and then later on fixate on something else to emotionally withdraw from me


----------



## MEM2020

Catherine,
I think most of the regulars here do challenge "woman bashing".

Often someone new starts with: my wife is a bad wife and I would leave her but all women are like this and most women reduce/stop sex when married.
Most of us "I think" try to educate posters like that.

Maybe we don't do a good job. Can you post a couple links to threads that are hostile to women?
And in the meantime I will look around myself. 


OTE=Catherine602;651345]Is it just me and my over sensitive nature or is it real. 

Does anyone notice that generalizing statement about woman go unchallenged?

Where are the voices offering a counter argument to the broad brush used to depict woman?? 

Would it not help? One person says something that has no validity and 10 people agree. So it must be true, right? 

When inaccurate statements go unchallenged, the hoped for exploratory exchange that I imagine MEM wanted to engender, turns into the same old rehashing of old struggles. 

Lets challenge each other. No one person, man or woman, has any more blind spots than the other.[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Jeff74

AFEH said:


> Some people are simply more emotional than others. That’s all it is. For me some others have what’s described as “low or flat affect” in that for some reason or other events that’d have a deep emotional affect on me simply don’t affect them. Carl Jung talks about this in his personality types. There are those that rely more on how they think about things and there are those that rely more on they feel about things. I’m one of the latter while you’re probably one of the former. That feeling thing is intuition linked to our emotions.
> 
> My wife is also a thinker, in the main. She saw me at times as quite emotional whereas I saw her at times as quite cold. But I know since our separation she has been feeling exceptionally strong emotions, breaking down and crying for example while out shopping when it really hits her. It’s at times like these when we truly understand the power of our emotions. Sometimes they just take us over and it takes some time to regain control, composure. But pity that it is a person has to suffer a very serious loss before they know these things. I don’t think any of us is truly immune, except for maybe psychopaths.
> 
> 
> But everyone reading this thread will be either a thinker or feeler! And those that are thinkers will just not get it no matter how it’s put to them. You are doing very well though in that you can see how things can be for other people. Even though you don’t feel these things yourself!


I admit I don't have any idea what love language means and I do not know who Carl Jung is but I am a mix between a "feeler" and thinker. My only comment was that sex to me does not relate to emotional attachment to me as it does for others. There are many things, however, that I can be very emotional about...but maybe I am more of a thinker...let me think about it! (ok, bad joke...lol)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Catherine602

AFEH said:


> :scratchhead:
> 
> In that I take it that MEM is saying that for men, sex IS an emotional need. In that it is not a want but a need.
> 
> And that's his key message and something he's trying to get some form of agreement on or recognition of.
> 
> And as such there is a gender bias. And a great big one at that!


I think there are gender differences if you look at aggregates of men and woman. But individuals never fit into a group. 

However, if you were asked to guess what was the gender of the person making this statement - "I have no problem feeling emotionally close to my partner if we are affectionate, we communicate and spend quality time together even if we did not have sex" what would you say? 

Most people will guess female. On average, I think you can find far more woman who feel this way than men. 

This statement "I have problems feeling emotionally close with my partner if we are affectionate, we communicate and spend quality time together but do not have sex" is more likely to come from men.

Maybe the gender that has the tendency to separate sex from love is really women not men.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

DanglingDaisy said:


> Interesting thread...I'm sitting here trying to absorb everything-and definitely appreciate the men's perspective.
> 
> Sex has always been the issue in our marriage. It confuses me,if in fact it's true that men's emotional satisfaction comes from their sex life with their partners....I was in the boat that many men here have complained about-lack of sex with their partner. It got to a point that getting it once every two to three months was normal,and emotionally I *did* need that intimate connection that was almost non existant for 10 years.
> 
> LOL One thing you couldn't blame me for,was not being patient
> 
> I understand my unique situations is different than most. I've always been interested in a sexual relationship with my partner. I spent many years waiting out his past drug/alcohol induced impotence. As his sex drive starting coming back,it turned out he had severe guilt/anguish about sex and masturbation. When his sex drive came back on line a couple of years ago...I hear the dreaded "I see you more as a wife and mother than a sexual being". That's where his idea of imagining me with other men came from. To want something other men desired. Other men have shown affinity for me,but the truth is I wanted him and ONLY him and my continued stride to keep him sexually excited and engaged as many have successfully done,has worn me down.
> 
> So tell me,if a man equates sex=emotional needs...explain this situation?
> 
> In our case, if he equated sex to emotional needs,it was always available to him. Instead,he would resent me-act like a woman who resented the "pressure":scratchhead: and then later on fixate on something else to emotionally withdraw from me


I will take a shot at explaining a bit of this.

First, it certainly does not apply to all men, though I do think it does for both. For a good majority of men, physical touch is their primary or secondary love language. By that, I mean that they accept love through touch, with sex being the highest type of touch. Other love languages (such as gifts, words of affirmation, etc.) just don't do it. So to these men, sex is an extremely important way to communicate their emotions and love.

That your husband does not want sex could be due to it being low on his love languages. He may prefer words of affirmation (such as you praising him or telling him you love him). He may also not be able to engage in sex in a healthy way, even though it is a love language for him, based on the issues you describe.

From my own experience, sex was not an emotional thing until I met my wife. As my love for her grew, so did the bonding that occured when we had sex. I am still not sure if it was my maturing, our love growing, or some combination, but I do think that this emotional connection by sex occurs most often in a long term relationship.


----------



## SunnyT

*I think the need for bonding sex varies during a man's lifetime, by the state of the relationship, by the desired act and the psychological nature of the individual. Some men never couple love and sex.


I wish men would identify one message that would give woman a clue about the role of sex in a committed relationship? Where do you find it against the background of all of the cultural garbage?
*

I think both of these statements refer to women as well. Some women never couple love and sex. So they won't understand MEM's message at all. 

And women are just as bad as not being clear about the role of sex in a committed relationship. 

Not arguing, just saying that this can go both ways. I understand too about sex being an emotional need for a man, but I really think that for many women (some here) it's the same. 

Sometimes, I think we are not all that different. We all want to be loved, appreciated, desired, trusted, and cherished. Not too much to ask for, right?


----------



## DanglingDaisy

Thank you Tall Guy for your insight :smthumbup: 

Sunny T -I completely agree with you


----------



## deejov

Gawd... I'm gonna find some kleenex, a bad movie, and cry my little green eyes out now. I feel so hard, cold, empty, used, unloved, and unwanted. on't have a clue what you guys are talking about. No one loves me that way. Never has. I had no idea what I was mising. Geez, time to pull up my socks and quit reading on this site.


----------



## AFEH

Bless you Deejov, thinking on you.


----------



## MEM2020

Dangling,
Sorry but serious drug/alcohol problems - serious masturbation issues may disrupt a sexual relationship for any person - male for female. 




DanglingDaisy said:


> Interesting thread...I'm sitting here trying to absorb everything-and definitely appreciate the men's perspective.
> 
> Sex has always been the issue in our marriage. It confuses me,if in fact it's true that men's emotional satisfaction comes from their sex life with their partners....I was in the boat that many men here have complained about-lack of sex with their partner. It got to a point that getting it once every two to three months was normal,and emotionally I *did* need that intimate connection that was almost non existant for 10 years.
> 
> LOL One thing you couldn't blame me for,was not being patient
> 
> I understand my unique situations is different than most. I've always been interested in a sexual relationship with my partner. I spent many years waiting out his past drug/alcohol induced impotence. As his sex drive starting coming back,it turned out he had severe guilt/anguish about sex and masturbation. When his sex drive came back on line a couple of years ago...I hear the dreaded "I see you more as a wife and mother than a sexual being". That's where his idea of imagining me with other men came from. To want something other men desired. Other men have shown affinity for me,but the truth is I wanted him and ONLY him and my continued stride to keep him sexually excited and engaged as many have successfully done,has worn me down.
> 
> So tell me,if a man equates sex=emotional needs...explain this situation?
> 
> In our case, if he equated sex to emotional needs,it was always available to him. Instead,he would resent me-act like a woman who resented the "pressure":scratchhead: and then later on fixate on something else to emotionally withdraw from me


----------



## MEM2020

Sunny,
I dated some women who were not into sex with me. They would "have" sex with me, but they simply weren't all that into it. I never would have married someone like that. You CANNOT change that. I wasn't angry with them - we simply weren't compatible. 





SunnyT said:


> *I think the need for bonding sex varies during a man's lifetime, by the state of the relationship, by the desired act and the psychological nature of the individual. Some men never couple love and sex.
> 
> 
> I wish men would identify one message that would give woman a clue about the role of sex in a committed relationship? Where do you find it against the background of all of the cultural garbage?
> *
> 
> I think both of these statements refer to women as well. Some women never couple love and sex. So they won't understand MEM's message at all.
> 
> And women are just as bad as not being clear about the role of sex in a committed relationship.
> 
> Not arguing, just saying that this can go both ways. I understand too about sex being an emotional need for a man, but I really think that for many women (some here) it's the same.
> 
> Sometimes, I think we are not all that different. We all want to be loved, appreciated, desired, trusted, and cherished. Not too much to ask for, right?


----------



## sisters359

I apologize for not being more clear.

My concern is this: Mem and others say that a woman should try to have sex w/her spouse b/c it is his way of feeling emotionally connected. I agree that some men may feel emotionally connected through sex. BUT my caveat was about the suggestion that a woman should ignore her own lack of desire (which, frankly, I think *most* women do, a lot of the time, until it gets really bad, and the avoidant behaviors increase). I wasn't actually speaking to any other point.


----------



## Catherine602

sisters359 said:


> I apologize for not being more clear.
> 
> My concern is this: Mem and others say that a woman should try to have sex w/her spouse b/c it is his way of feeling emotionally connected. I agree that some men may feel emotionally connected through sex. BUT my caveat was about the suggestion that a woman should ignore her own lack of desire (which, frankly, I think *most* women do, a lot of the time, until it gets really bad, and the avoidant behaviors increase). I wasn't actually speaking to any other point.


I am glad you are posting.

I understand what you are saying. What should a couple do to solve this problem? Would you be willing to read this thread?

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/42706-venting-wife-sex-problems-ive-given-up.html

Lets say you knew that lack of desire and sex made your husband as angry, sad, depressed and desperate as this man, would you be motivated to implement a solution? 

Lets say you love him and know he loves you. He is a good man and does his best to make you happy, and succeeds the great majority of the time. What would a couple like this do?


----------



## MEM2020

Sisters,
Have you had sexual experiences that began with you not feeling desire? Was your partner able to turn you on in a manner that felt good for you? Was the overall experience good/bad/indifferent? And most important - did you feel like this was all about "him", or about both of you? 

As for me, I only have one LTR from which I can directly draw conclusions. Based on lots of direct observation, and conversations with my W (who tends to be painfully honest) it seems:
- She genuinely likes me. She likes being with me. Likes that I touch her a lot in a non-sexual way. That my touch is more about "her" than about "me". Likes that I treat the gift of physical intimacy with respect. She feels safe and relaxed in my company because I don't grope or touch her in ways that cause her distress or bad feelings. I think the male "gropers" (whose wives have asked them not to do that) have no idea what a violation of trust that is in a marriage. 
- She knows that I care about her. And yes - back to space - that most precious aspect of intimacy - I might want a hug - but in those rare moments where I know she is wanting to be by herself - I would not project such a desire at her. Knowingly invading someones space to take what you want isn't right. 

Because of this, it is easy for her to relax and enjoy my non-sexual touch at the beginning of what becomes a sexual encounter. That said all the non-sexual touch is not part of a "master plan" to get laid. I do it because it feels nice for both of us, and is bonding for both of us. It isn't foreplay - or at the very least doesn't start out as foreplay. At least not for me. 





sisters359 said:


> I apologize for not being more clear.
> 
> My concern is this: Mem and others say that a woman should try to have sex w/her spouse b/c it is his way of feeling emotionally connected. I agree that some men may feel emotionally connected through sex. BUT my caveat was about the suggestion that a woman should ignore her own lack of desire (which, frankly, I think *most* women do, a lot of the time, until it gets really bad, and the avoidant behaviors increase). I wasn't actually speaking to any other point.


----------



## AFEH

I actually think there are some types of women who will see a man who expresses sex as an emotional need as a “needy man”. In kind of a similar way to a needy child. I’d hypothesise that for example the “Strong Independent Woman” would see such a man as being needy and may indeed by quite repulsed by him. 



But for me sex with my wife did form a big part of my emotional needs in my marriage. In some critical areas she did drop the ball wrt emotional support but then nobodies perfect. In those times I looked to learn to support myself, which is never a bad thing anyway.



But within the institution of marriage a place where we spend an inordinate amount of our time and money making massive investments on a continuing basis, emotional support is for me an absolutely key aspect without which the marriage is a cold, bleak, dark place and more or less just a business transaction.



The warmth and light within a marriage is provided by the healthy emotions both partners experience through loving one another with their acts of love and the emotional support they provide their partner in their times of need.


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## Enchantment

Catherine602 said:


> I am glad you are posting.
> 
> I understand what you are saying. What should a couple do to solve this problem? Would you be willing to read this thread?
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/42706-venting-wife-sex-problems-ive-given-up.html
> 
> Lets say you knew that lack of desire and sex made your husband as angry, sad, depressed and desperate as this man, would you be motivated to implement a solution?
> 
> Lets say you love him and know he loves you. He is a good man and does his best to make you happy, and succeeds the great majority of the time. What would a couple like this do?


A couple such as this needs, I think, invervention from an outside professional source.

They have too many in-grained behaviours in the both of the them that cause the downward cycle to continue - and they would need to learn how to stop those behaviours, which would take quite a bit of dedication on both their parts, I think.

It's usually more than just a lack of sex that's going on in these situations - the lack of sex is a manifestation of their relationship, how they interact with each other, their priorities, even their very personalities.

When I read sister's posts, I *think* she is saying that you can't just tell someone to "have sex" and expect the ship to right - that in the telling itself it does not create any desire to do so if one's heart is really unwilling. Nor does it particularly help if they do have sex and one of them is really not 'there'. Whatever the root issues are in the marriage need to be addressed - and that takes both of them to have willing hearts - even if one decides to take the first step, the other must also decide to reach out and step along.


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## Bottled Up

AFEH said:


> I actually think there are some types of women who will see a man who expresses sex as an emotional need as a “needy man”. In kind of a similar way to a needy child. I’d hypothesise that for example the “Strong Independent Woman” would see such a man as being needy and may indeed by quite repulsed by him.


Well said AFEH... I concur completely. That's why it's so important we find the right mate for us, because of what our own individual needs are. You are one puzzle piece of a 2-piece puzzle and you're looking for the other piece that locks right into place and completes the total puzzle with you.



AFEH said:


> But for me sex with my wife did form a big part of my emotional needs in my marriage.


That's exactly how it is for me in my marriage... Sex with my wife isn't just sex for me, it's a spiritual bonding that nothing else in this world can come close to touching emotionally. It's the ultimate drug.

Physical contact with my wife is so important to me that I can actually feel my deep love for her all the way down into my groin, that's how inexorably connected the love and the physical are for me with her. And I know it's not just me being a horny guy, it's something more blissful than that I can't really explain. It's my _true love_ that make me crave her so sexually, so intimately. I look at her face, and I think she is so genuinely beautiful both on the outside and inside, and it reverberates throughout my body and touches my soul.

Even vanilla sex with my wife I believe is so much more fulfilling than it would be having "porn-star sex" with another woman... because that woman is not special. My wife is mine, and I love her like I've never thought a love possible before.


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## AFEH

Bottled Up said:


> Well said AFEH... I concur completely. That's why it's so important we find the right mate for us, because of what our own individual needs are. You are one puzzle piece of a 2-piece puzzle and you're looking for the other piece that locks right into place and completes the total puzzle with you.
> 
> 
> 
> That's exactly how it is for me in my marriage... Sex with my wife isn't just sex for me, it's a spiritual bonding that nothing else in this world can come close to touching emotionally. It's the ultimate drug.
> 
> Physical contact with my wife is so important to me that I can actually feel my deep love for her all the way down into my groin, that's how inexorably connected the love and the physical are for me with her. And I know it's not just me being a horny guy, it's something more blissful than that I can't really explain. It's my _true love_ that make me crave her so sexually, so intimately. I look at her face, and I think she is so genuinely beautiful both on the outside and inside, and it reverberates throughout my body and touches my soul.
> 
> Even vanilla sex with my wife I believe is so much more fulfilling than it would be having "porn-star sex" with another woman... because that woman is not special. My wife is mine, and I love her like I've never thought a love possible before.


I so know what you mean. For me just to see my wife is to love her and to want her. It is so very spiritual and deeply soulful.


We’re separated for two years now. And the reasons you express are the reasons why I’ll never see her again. She hurt me deeply and I’d probably just cave in or runaway from her. It’s weird, strange but at last it’s good to speak to another man who truly knows what and how I feel about my love for my wife and I thank you for that.


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## MEM2020

Bob,
In hindsight, my behavior was "worst" at my career peak.

I was making very good money - in exchange for a lot of travel, stress and long hours. 

By then all 3 kids were in school full time. The workload/stress balance seemed very much out of balance for me. Sexually saturated, I shrugged and didn't really care. But I had a massive sense of entitlement. Beyond what is healthy or fair. She accommodated - though she inflicted some well deserved pain on me...

A time machine, A time machine, My kingdom for a time machine....




AFEH said:


> I actually think there are some types of women who will see a man who expresses sex as an emotional need as a “needy man”. In kind of a similar way to a needy child. I’d hypothesise that for example the “Strong Independent Woman” would see such a man as being needy and may indeed by quite repulsed by him.
> 
> 
> 
> But for me sex with my wife did form a big part of my emotional needs in my marriage. In some critical areas she did drop the ball wrt emotional support but then nobodies perfect. In those times I looked to learn to support myself, which is never a bad thing anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> But within the institution of marriage a place where we spend an inordinate amount of our time and money making massive investments on a continuing basis, emotional support is for me an absolutely key aspect without which the marriage is a cold, bleak, dark place and more or less just a business transaction.
> 
> 
> 
> The warmth and light within a marriage is provided by the healthy emotions both partners experience through loving one another with their acts of love and the emotional support they provide their partner in their times of need.


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## AFEH

MEM11363 said:


> Bob,
> In hindsight, my behavior was "worst" at my career peak.
> 
> I was making very good money - in exchange for a lot of travel, stress and long hours.
> 
> By then all 3 kids were in school full time. The workload/stress balance seemed very much out of balance for me. Sexually saturated, I shrugged and didn't really care. But I had a massive sense of entitlement. Beyond what is healthy or fair. She accommodated - though she inflicted some well deserved pain on me...
> 
> A time machine, A time machine, My kingdom for a time machine....


Don’t blame yourself too much and don’t beat yourself up MEM. Learn to forgive yourself. Some men take it all on their own shoulders, as though success or failure is totally down to them. That’s how such men become successful. Because they lay responsibility for failure at their own feet and nobody else’s.


But just as in business or work it needs teamwork in a marriage to be successful. It really does take two to tango.


I feel absolutely certain that you are not some sort of psychopath who sat down on many an occasion and planned ways to hurt your wife. That when you did hurt her you were being you and it was accidental as opposed to deliberate. So learn to forgive yourself and make certain your wife has forgiven you as well.


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## MEM2020

Bob,
She forgave me a long time ago. A couple times she said she was sorry about coming to bed late and making me angry. 

Neither of us was inflicting pain deliberately. Just a high intensity time period. 




AFEH said:


> Don’t blame yourself too much and don’t beat yourself up MEM. Learn to forgive yourself. Some men take it all on their own shoulders, as though success or failure is totally down to them. That’s how such men become successful. Because they lay responsibility for failure at their own feet and nobody else’s.
> 
> 
> But just as in business or work it needs teamwork in a marriage to be successful. It really does take two to tango.
> 
> 
> I feel absolutely certain that you are not some sort of psychopath who sat down on many an occasion and planned ways to hurt your wife. That when you did hurt her you were being you and it was accidental as opposed to deliberate. So learn to forgive yourself and make certain your wife has forgiven you as well.


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## SimplyAmorous

AFEH said:


> In that I take it that MEM is saying that for men, sex IS an emotional need. In that it is not a want but a need.
> 
> And that's his key message and something he's trying to get some form of agreement on or recognition of.
> 
> And as such there is a gender bias. And a great big one at that!


Why (and How) Sex is Important to Men









..............Sex Is an Emotional Need 



> *Bottled Up said *: Physical contact with my wife is so important to me that I can actually feel my deep love for her all the way down into my groin, that's how inexorably connected the love and the physical are for me with her. And I know it's not just me being a horny guy, it's something more blissful than that I can't really explain. It's my true love that make me crave her so sexually, so intimately. I look at her face, and I think she is so genuinely beautiful both on the outside and inside, and it reverberates throughout my body and touches my soul.
> 
> Even vanilla sex with my wife I believe is so much more fulfilling than it would be having "porn-star sex" with another woman... because that woman is not special. My wife is mine, and I love her like I've never thought a love possible before.


LOVE this :smthumbup: You are such a Hopeless Romantic Bottled up....Darn, wish my husband could write like some of you men on here..... I know he feels it but his verbal expression would be just a one liner, maybe 2 at the most. One time he said to me...."my touch should be worth a thousand words"...he got me on that one.... shut me right up.


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## Bottled Up

Thanks SimplyAmorous. Unfortunately sometimes I feel like my hopeless romanticism is a curse too. The awareness I have gained about relationships and needs since being here at TAM now also makes me more in-tune with how lonely it can feel when your partner is not always on the same page as you.

For example, my "love tank" is feeling kinda empty right now, and I'm super-aware of it now... Before I ever discovered this place I was oblivious to even my own needs and this concept of a love tank. As thankful as I am to have gone through my awakening, the reality of the pain that inadvertently came with it is really hard to deal with sometimes.


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## moxy

MEM11363 said:


> So from now on when someone,an or woman posts about a lack of sex, let's call it what it is: their partner isn't meeting their EMOTIONAL needs. And by repeatedly rejecting them without honest explanation, their partner is abusing them emotionally.
> 
> If when my W said "ILY", I just looked at her and said, "I don't feel like talking right now, and I did that day after day and when
> Asked why said "everything is fine", that would also be emotionally abusive in the same way.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is a very good point. If my H had been so inclined, we would have gotten together at least once a day or more. Unfortunately, he chose porn and cheating over sex with me, and I resorted to crying myself to sleep out of frustration far more often than I care to admit. When I thought it was just a lack of interest in his part, I could cope with it, but....boy was I upset when I found out that attention was going elsewhere! Sex is as much about emotional connection as it is about physical release and while it shouldn't be forced or taken, if it's missing, then it needs to be addressed and not used as a way to control anyone!

Are you saying that men need sex but want affection, while women need affection but want sex? I don't know that it's a strict binary. I think that the two are more entwined. For some people in general, the act of physical intimacy is a need, and for others it's a want; however, it doesn't seem to me that it's a gender difference, but a personality difference.


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## MEM2020

LHM,
There are a core group of posters who are wonderful. And a broader group who either lack empathy, understanding or basic reading proficiency. The broader group tells these guys to try harder/be nicer/act more like a female. And these are guys who have already posted some version of:
- I am a nice guy
- I am already doing more than my fair share
- I have asked her what is wrong and she tells me everything is fine except for the foolish idea that I believe we should have regular sex. And she has told me I should except that, that is not going to happen. Oh and one more thing, she shows no empathy, no concern for his distress and no interest in trying to address the problem because it is solely HIS problem



lovesherman said:


> Wow, MEM, I guess this thread has not gone the way you had hoped! Now I see what you meant, but I did not understand from your original post.
> 
> I am puzzled, however, by why you think that TAM posters do not offer sympathy to men in low sex marriages. I think of the fiance who was worried that the frequency of sex had gone down. Everyone told him to run. He said he was surprised; he thought the men would tell him to cheat, and the women would call him a pig for wanting sex too much.
> 
> As for the Catherine bashing, I totally get where she is coming from. We do not hear many messages from news stories, movies, or songs that indicate that men get emotional needs met through sex. Men in general don't want to seem "needy," so they do not express tender feelings regarding sex.
> 
> When RJD posted about meeting his wife's needs resulting in great sex, he got a bunch of people saying lighten up, sex is just for screwing.
> 
> What advice do you think we should offer such men? The usual suggestions are meet her needs or do the emotional 180. What else should we say?


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## MEM2020

Agreed it is not binary. Like in all human qualities there is a bell curve. My W needs affection way more than sex. I need sex but if I get a lot of affection and general "nice treatment" I need much less sex. 

There is a lot of debate about porn on this site. I have a very simplistic view of it: If you are not giving your spouse the "right of first refusal" to sex, you are being a bad partner. It pains me to read about husbands who use porn when their wives would like to be intimate. At the other end of the spectrum you will find wives who have zero interest in sex with their husbands and yet become aggressive to the point of threatening divorce if their men look at porn. This is the "spouse as property model" not something I look kindly upon. 



moxy said:


> This is a very good point. If my H had been so inclined, we would have gotten together at least once a day or more. Unfortunately, he chose porn and cheating over sex with me, and I resorted to crying myself to sleep out of frustration far more often than I care to admit. When I thought it was just a lack of interest in his part, I could cope with it, but....boy was I upset when I found out that attention was going elsewhere! Sex is as much about emotional connection as it is about physical release and while it shouldn't be forced or taken, if it's missing, then it needs to be addressed and not used as a way to control anyone!
> 
> Are you saying that men need sex but want affection, while women need affection but want sex? I don't know that it's a strict binary. I think that the two are more entwined. For some people in general, the act of physical intimacy is a need, and for others it's a want; however, it doesn't seem to me that it's a gender difference, but a personality difference.


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