# Save your marriage



## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

I have a very negative opinion on divorce. Of course there are times when divorce is a must: times of abuse, cheating, addiction etc. but I'm NOT speaking to these times. 

Most people who get divorce, years later wish they had tried harder in their first marriage. The Second and third marriage divorce rate is a lot higher. The proof is in the pudding. We hear stories on here a lot about how happy they are being divorced. But I don't think that is accurate to all divorces (obviously it's not because divorce rates goes up with more marriages). 
When you get divorced, it's like starting a new relationship. Everything is fresh and new and good. People will have a positive opinion the first few years post divorce. Then when they get into serious long term relationships, and marriages things change. You find the same issues in your current marriage as you had in your first marriage. Plus more issues including complications and baggage from the first marriage (kids, alimony, in laws, family etc). So when you catch a person that is re married and it's been a while, these people mostly report wishing they had worked things out on their first marriage. But hind-sight is 20-20 and I think we can all learn from this and the statistics.
A lot of people who are re married are determined to make it work and try harder because the last thing they want is 3 marriages, it's embarrassing, maybe there are more kids involved and things get more complicated so people who are re married really try harder to make it work. And even with that... the divorce rate is way higher. My point is, we should all be determined to make our first marriage work. Because when we see issues right away people are like oh wow divorce! But the reality is, there are going to be issues, and the grass is not greener on the other side, it truly is where you water it.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

True, nobody wants three marriages, but sometimes it takes three marriages to find one's path in life...


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

Emerging Buddhist said:


> True, nobody wants three marriages, but sometimes it takes three marriages to find one's path in life...




Yes. I think it's about self realization and experience rather than the "right person".


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

I have a very negative opinion on people that stay in dysfunctional marriages. Sometimes divorce really is the better option. 

And I have never met one person who years later regretted getting divorced.

The grass was much greener on the other side for me.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

I think that inherently, we are not designed for marriage. We choose it, now more than ever. Lots of people don't choose it, but favor LTR without the legally binding part.

Some people choose wisely and some choose poorly. I didn't have a choice but to divorce my ex husband, those here who know the short of my story can attest.

Sometimes it takes a few tries to get it right. I tell every person who is contemplating marriage, or currently married, that everyone should be married at least once. It's not a joke. Divorce just comes with a lot of financial and emotional penalties, making it all the more pressuring to work out fitting that square peg into a round hole. 

If you give your best shot at healing the relationship, but it doesn't work, no one is going to get judged by me if they just want to move on after trying. Life has a finite amount of time and an infinite amount of possibilities.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

katiecrna said:


> Emerging Buddhist said:
> 
> 
> > True, nobody wants three marriages, but sometimes it takes three marriages to find one's path in life...
> ...


I disagree. If you have the misfortune of being with someone who has a personality disorder or unaddressed dysfunction, all of the "self realization" in the world isn't going to make them the right person.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

MrsHolland said:


> I have a very negative opinion on people that stay in dysfunctional marriages. Sometimes divorce really is the better option.
> 
> And I have never met one person who years later regretted getting divorced.
> 
> The grass was much greener on the other side for me.


A thousand times this.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

katiecrna said:


> My point is, we should all be determined to make our first marriage work. Because when we see issues right away people are like oh wow divorce! But the reality is, there are going to be issues, and the grass is not greener on the other side, it truly is where you water it.


I agree, we should make every effort to make a first (or subsequent) marriage work. I know I did, but it wasn't enough, because she wouldn't or couldn't change. Divorce was the best option, after all. I have no regrets about that, at all. My second relationship/marriage is incredibly better, because I married someone more compatible, and we are both committed to making it work as well.

I used to be watering crab grass. Now the grass really is greener on this side, and it's the real thing.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

Livvie said:


> I disagree. If you have the misfortune of being with someone who has a personality disorder or unaddressed dysfunction, all of the "self realization" in the world isn't going to make them the right person.




I agree. But 95% of people fall within 2 standard deviation from the average. That's who I am talking about. Not the people who really deviate from the norm. 

But what does the statistics mean when the divorce rates increase as # of marriages increase?


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

MrsHolland said:


> I have a very negative opinion on people that stay in dysfunctional marriages. Sometimes divorce really is the better option.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I guess I just disagree. Not many would admit that openly.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ex...2/Most-divorcees-regret-marriage-break-up/amp


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...-high-failure-rate-second-and-third-marriages


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Katie,

I have had many folks say they knew the marriage was bad, and proceeded to procreate anyway - at which point they felt stuck. 

Others have said - their spouse gradually acted worse - but didn't fully show true colors until after their first/last child. 

And - I will say this in the spirit of trying to be helpful. Do you think that you might radiate a certain (judgemental) vibe that discourages people from making these types of disclosures to you?

Maybe the best way to say this is, you are a very accomplished and motivated person with a long list of strengths. That said - not sure your self awareness is all that high. 





katiecrna said:


> I guess I just disagree. Not many would admit that openly.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> Katie,
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I agree that I may come off judgmental. I don't think some judgement is wrong. I actually think we are too tolerant and sensitive to some things. 
I am often black and white with my views. However, I am a very empathic person. When my friends come to me and confess something that they know I disagree with, I'm not an idiot. I know when people come to me for comfort, and for support. I would never lecture or speak disapprovingly to something that has already happened. I am extremely self aware.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

I think that's really part of our "throw-away" culture that allows for fast easy divorce and not to have to try to work out problems. It's easier to say that you tried but not to try too hard, it's far more interesting to move on to someone else and see how that person may tickle your fancy (of course without regard to what happens when the newness wares off).


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

@MEM2020 what people get offended by tells us a lot about who they are.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

katiecrna said:


> @MEM2020 what people get offended by tells us a lot about who they are.


You seem to be offended by people who don't stick with their first marriage, no matter what. Perhaps you are trying to justify to yourself sticking with the marriage you have, even though there are some very frustrating problems.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

Livvie said:


> You seem to be offended by people who don't stick with their first marriage, no matter what. Perhaps you are trying to justify to yourself sticking with the marriage you have, even though there are some very frustrating problems.




For sure. 100%. It bothers me that TAM quickly pulls the D card and passes that over for advice. People here only really know a sliver of the real relationship. And it's biased on that. Most people don't post about the good things in their marriage only the bad negative ones that they come on here for advice or support for.

Oops... I don't think people should stick to their marriage no matter what at all. But t drives me crazy how quickly people recommend divorce. And It offends me when people give me this advice.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

I think usually, though, the problems people are posting about are often truly divorce worthy.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Sometimes, there's not enough there - or left - to be worth saving.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> I have a very negative opinion on divorce. Of course there are times when divorce is a must: times of abuse, cheating, addiction etc. but I'm NOT speaking to these times.
> 
> Most people who get divorce, years later wish they had tried harder in their first marriage. The Second and third marriage divorce rate is a lot higher. The proof is in the pudding. We hear stories on here a lot about how happy they are being divorced. But I don't think that is accurate to all divorces (obviously it's not because divorce rates goes up with more marriages).
> When you get divorced, it's like starting a new relationship. Everything is fresh and new and good. People will have a positive opinion the first few years post divorce. Then when they get into serious long term relationships, and marriages things change. You find the same issues in your current marriage as you had in your first marriage. Plus more issues including complications and baggage from the first marriage (kids, alimony, in laws, family etc). So when you catch a person that is re married and it's been a while, these people mostly report wishing they had worked things out on their first marriage. But hind-sight is 20-20 and I think we can all learn from this and the statistics.
> A lot of people who are re married are determined to make it work and try harder because the last thing they want is 3 marriages, it's embarrassing, maybe there are more kids involved and things get more complicated so people who are re married really try harder to make it work. And even with that... the divorce rate is way higher. My point is, we should all be determined to make our first marriage work. Because when we see issues right away people are like oh wow divorce! But the reality is, there are going to be issues, and the grass is not greener on the other side, it truly is where you water it.


I also hate divorce, but what I hate more is cheating, betrayal, abuse of the spouse or children, lying, deception etc. 
I agree that many will end a marriage far far too easily, for very selfish reasons, but most of the people I know who divorced did so for very serious reasons. Some have no choice, my husbands wife divorced him against his will after meeting another man. He believes that you keep the promises you have made, as I do, but it takes two. If one wants out then you can stop them. 

I don't agree that most in second marriages wish they were still in their first. We certainly dont.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> I don't agree that most in second marriages wish they were still in their first. We certainly dont.




I'm sure it depends on the circumstances of the divorce.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

Married but Happy said:


> Sometimes, there's not enough there - or left - to be worth saving.




I agree. I think people wait to long to seek help.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

katiecrna said:


> I agree. I think people wait to long to seek help.




Getting help doesn't always lead to change. 

As the others have said, it takes two to make the marriage work. You can self realize and IC all you want and still not be compatible with your spouse.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> I'm sure it depends on the circumstances of the divorce.


Yes of course, and also for us we are both far happier in this marriage even though we didn't cause or want the first marriages to end. 
The thing is that nearly all the divorces that I know of were caused by cheating, and so the one who divorced wasn't the one at fault. The other one had already destroyed the marriage and the trust.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

blueinbr said:


> Getting help doesn't always lead to change.
> 
> As the others have said, it takes two to make the marriage work. You can self realize and IC all you want and still not be compatible with your spouse.


Not sure I agree about people not being compatible. They were in love once presumably and saw in each other what they wanted in a spouse. In some marriages the people are so different from each other but it works with time and effort.


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## Bremik (Feb 6, 2009)

I agree that divorce becomes an option way too quickly. I also think you provided links to some very compelling statistics- can anyone provide links to opposing yet also compelling information? 

If we agree divorce shouldn't be the first choice and people shouldn't stay in a bad marriage that is physically or emotionally harmful where and when do we decide to draw that line? Going to assume the majority would agree any physical harm is grounds for immediate divorce so what constitutes grounds for a divorce based on emotional harm? How do we come up with a standard check list of acceptable reasons to divorce? Can separation be better utilized to make both partners come to there senses?


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## stixx (Mar 20, 2017)

katiecrna said:


> Most people who get divorce, years later wish they had tried harder in their first marriage.


 @katiecrna

Where do you get your (questionable) information from?

As a divorced guy who is happily involved in a long term domestic partnership (with a woman), I have no regrets and I don't recall reading too many stories about people who did regret ending their first marriage.

Now don't go quoting the high failure rate of subsequent marriages as a reason for that first marriage regret, the two things are not at all related.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> I agree that I may come off judgmental. I don't think some judgement is wrong. I actually think we are too tolerant and sensitive to some things.
> I am often black and white with my views. However, I am a very emphatic person. When my friends come to me and confess something that they know I disagree with, I'm not an idiot. I know when people come to me for comfort, and for support. I would never lecture or speak disapprovingly to something that has already happened. I am extremely self aware.


I would like to follow up with @MEM2020's thought on self-awareness...

I know it's my responsibility to change my reactions and behaviors, that no one controls this but me.

So many things led to confusion between:

•self-victimization (why we are not willing to accept the things we are wrong in and thinking things would be better if other things or people changed)
•self-awareness (understanding our feelings and what triggered them)
•self-empowerment (nobody fills that void of emotional need other than ourselves)

I do not believe one can have the opportunity for self-awareness without the other two... we have to understand that relationships balance on these and what goes into understanding when we challenge ourselves in our awareness is trusting ourselves to see our way through them without fear of possibly not liking what we find. 

Not liking ourselves is going to happen from time to time and chances are pretty good we may not like what we find in ourselves when self-challenged, but we never grow if everything we find is liked... 

The important thing is we love ourselves enough to believe we are capable to move through the moments when we do not like the actions we have and can change the patterns and understand why they influenced us poorly.

As we address ourselves and our communication within, too often our problem is we do not listen to understand and all we want to do is reply when our heart tells us to do the opposite... simply, listen.

It is a lot of work... but worth every ounce of effort.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

Unfortunately, some spouses will take advantage of a partner with an unconditional approach to marriage. I'm not one of them- I think it's one of the most generous gifts you can give another person, and after having children, I see how unconditional love is necessary to truly, deeply trust another human and feel as safe as possible.

But people do take advantage of that.


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## Thound (Jan 20, 2013)

If I ever find myself single, I will never remarry, and you can take that to the bank!


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> Not sure I agree about people not being compatible. They were in love once presumably and saw in each other what they wanted in a spouse. In some marriages the people are so different from each other but it works with time and effort.


Love is your brain on drugs. It's delusional. When the hormones wear off, and reality sets in, you may start to learn to hate each other based on the reality of differing personalities, and real incompatibilities. Time and effort sometimes make things even worse. Been there, done that - I speak from experience, and from trying to recapture that early love.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

katiecrna said:


> I have a very negative opinion on divorce. Of course there are times when divorce is a must: times of abuse, cheating, addiction etc. but I'm NOT speaking to these times.
> 
> Most people who get divorce, years later wish they had tried harder in their first marriage. The Second and third marriage divorce rate is a lot higher. The proof is in the pudding. We hear stories on here a lot about how happy they are being divorced. But I don't think that is accurate to all divorces (obviously it's not because divorce rates goes up with more marriages).
> When you get divorced, it's like starting a new relationship. Everything is fresh and new and good. People will have a positive opinion the first few years post divorce. Then when they get into serious long term relationships, and marriages things change. You find the same issues in your current marriage as you had in your first marriage. Plus more issues including complications and baggage from the first marriage (kids, alimony, in laws, family etc). So when you catch a person that is re married and it's been a while, these people mostly report wishing they had worked things out on their first marriage. But hind-sight is 20-20 and I think we can all learn from this and the statistics.
> A lot of people who are re married are determined to make it work and try harder because the last thing they want is 3 marriages, it's embarrassing, maybe there are more kids involved and things get more complicated so people who are re married really try harder to make it work. And even with that... the divorce rate is way higher. My point is, we should all be determined to make our first marriage work. Because when we see issues right away people are like oh wow divorce! But the reality is, there are going to be issues, and the grass is not greener on the other side, it truly is where you water it.


There is a way to say all of this without making us feel like we are being clubbed over the head. I have to agree with MEM -- this does come across as quite judgmental and frankly, I disagree with most of it.

I happen to be THRILLED to be divorced after a 20 year lackluster, unfulfilling marriage. Not once have I ever regretted divorce. And I have no desire to ever remarry again so none of the statistics you present on 2nd or even 3rd marriages are of any relevance to me.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Katie,

If your behavior with H + his family is equivalent to what I observe of you here, one thing is utterly certain. You will have war. 

And that result is not a function of you being 'warlike' or combative. 

It is a function of 4 factors which intersect in a most unfortunate manner:

1. A narrow comfort zone in many situations. 
2. A competitive nature / desire to win /get the last word.
3. A resistance to feedback - you say a lot of stuff that isn't defensible - and when people ask you to defend your position - you simply ignore their questions 
4. Take yourself very seriously - I used to suffer this same flaw - it makes life SO MUCH harder - for you and those around you. 

You married a surgeon and make disparaging comments about nurses who want to marry doctors. And I say this next bit - not to wound - but because I believe it is true. If you had married a nurse, and he was doing the face down with you that your H was - family drama included - you would either be threatening divorce or already divorcing him. 





katiecrna said:


> I agree that I may come off judgmental. I don't think some judgement is wrong. I actually think we are too tolerant and sensitive to some things.
> I am often black and white with my views. However, I am a very empathic person. When my friends come to me and confess something that they know I disagree with, I'm not an idiot. I know when people come to me for comfort, and for support. I would never lecture or speak disapprovingly to something that has already happened. I am extremely self aware.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> You married a surgeon and make disparaging comments about nurses who want to marry doctors. And I say this next bit - not to wound - but because I believe it is true. If you had married a nurse, and he was doing the face down with you that your H was - family drama included - you would either be threatening divorce or already divorcing him.



This doesn't wound me because it's not true. And it doesn't bother me that you think of me this way. I know who I am. I know I come off harsh and cold, but my heart and intentions are good. I am Christian. I don't believe In divorce unless there is adultery or abuse. I am a huge pro marriage person.

I'm sorry if I offended others. That was not my intention. I meant to encourage married people to save their marriage, to work to fix their marriage, that divorce may not be the answer in many cases.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I will take you at your word regarding the 'if you'd married a nurse who was otherwise the same as your H'.

As pro marriage as I am - and I think it's the best thing I've ever done - I differentiate between two very different outcomes:
1. Avoiding divorce despite not being good for and to each other 
2. Bringing out each other's best - and your children's best (as that is my personal measure of a marriage)

Biting the bullet (1) and sticking it out is more understandable to me after having kids. Pulling the plug prior to having children, especially when you both sort of realize you have core compatibility issues - isn't (IMHO) a sin. 

And with regard to my other (4) points, they are entirely independent of morals - of good or bad. M2 is a 'better' person than I am in the 'good - bad' dimension. I'm not 'bad', but she is without question more 'good'. It is ALSO true that she:

1. Has a narrow comfort zone in many, many situations
2. Is more competitive than most folks (me included)
3. Can be resistant to feedback - if she feels like it's a power/control move
4. Is generally very controlling (which is why our life hums along like a Swiss watch - and why - I sometimes tease her when she loses sight of other people's boundaries)

Thing is - she has a playfulness and a sense of humor that make it all work. Used to be, when she was being extra difficult I would say: You are lucky you are sooooooo good in bed. She would just laugh. But the truth is a bit different - she is lucky she has a playfulness and a great sense of humor - because without that - this mix of other stuff might make for a kind of grim marriage. 

(2) This inherently has no good or bad to it. What a person DOES with it - might have a good or bad element. M2 is a nurse for ophthalmologists. This year she is the only one in a group of a dozen who got a double digit increase. She earned that by providing the best patient care and optimizing efficiency. And that clearly is good on the good/bad axis. Now - if she competitively shared that info with co-workers - to let them know she is 'mommy's favorite' - that would be bad. And ummm - that happened once, despite my encouragement to avoid that type thing. And big shocker - her colleagues were hurt - and felt bad - about the big disparity in raises and her boss was furious. 








katiecrna said:


> This doesn't wound me because it's not true. And it doesn't bother me that you think of me this way. I know who I am. I know I come off harsh and cold, but my heart and intentions are good. I am Christian. I don't believe In divorce unless there is adultery or abuse. I am a huge pro marriage person.
> 
> I'm sorry if I offended others. That was not my intention. I meant to encourage married people to save their marriage, to work to fix their marriage, that divorce may not be the answer in many cases.


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## emmasmith (Aug 11, 2016)

For my opinion, Avoiding divorce despite not being good for each other.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> This doesn't wound me because it's not true. And it doesn't bother me that you think of me this way. I know who I am. I know I come off harsh and cold, but my heart and intentions are good. I am Christian. I don't believe In divorce unless there is adultery or abuse. I am a huge pro marriage person.
> 
> I'm sorry if I offended others. That was not my intention. I meant to encourage married people to save their marriage, to work to fix their marriage, that divorce may not be the answer in many cases.


I am a Christian as well and I also hate divorce, its a painful horrible thing to go though, but sometimes its needed. In abuse,(sexual, physical or serious emotional abuse), or cheating(which for me would also include someone who is heavily into porn and wont stop), or abandonment, divorce is sometimes the consequence.

Having said that, occasionally people will use the abuse term in deceitful crazy ways. My husbands ex claimed he didn't meet her 'emotional needs' and was 'abusive', (presumably that's why she then had an affair and divorced him!). However we have been married for 12 years this year and he hasn't an abusive bone in his body. He is the most easy going easy to please patient man I have ever known. So not every claim of abuse is true. Its sometimes an excuse to end a marriage.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

Katie, everyone here has a legitimate opportunity to share what's important to them. I doubt you offended anyone really, but maybe the pinch was in your delivery. 

I have pretty high expectations of humans, but I also know that people will do what they do, regardless of the advice (useless or not) I spout here. I have more or less this "let go" approach. I don't know if it really suits you, but I'd encourage you to give it some consideration, especially as you self described as a bit black and white in thinking at times.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

katiecrna said:


> Yes. I think it's about self realization and experience rather than the "right person".


 I see this a little differently.. being with the "right person" doesn't mean it has to be a soul mate sorta thing.. but it does mean someone compatible with our hopes, dreams, having a similar vision for life/ family or it's going to remain an uphill battle... this I feel is very very important for a marriage to work and not be miserable, basically...

I say this from what I have personally witnessed in life from those around me.... IF a couple is *compatible ENOUGH *, *reasonable ENOUGH* to communicate well, *unselfish ENOUGH* to make each other a priority, caring for each others needs .....YES, by all means, hang in there... there is HOPE! 

But ...even 2 decent caring people who are simply NOT compatible (in areas deeply important to them- we all have them!).. it's like banging one's head against the wall.. .some married too quickly -was in some fog , seeing what they wanted to see... been blinded by some ideal, physical attraction, money, etc... (the case with my own parents).. I always say it was a train wreck... the best thing that could have happened was divorce.. crazy it lasted as long as it did.. I remember the fights.. 

Then my father married his Soul mate the 2nd time around.. almost 40 yrs later.. their love/ companionship/ respect/ enjoyment of each other is sailing strong.. but the thing was.. She was very very compatible with my Father, wanted the same things.... .where my mother never did.. they were 2 very different people wanting very different things in life... which she'd say the same.. She was always happy that my father found what he did with my Step Mom...

Sometimes it really is for the best... we only get one life.. it should be enjoyed.. and with someone we're crazy about, that brings out the Best in us..


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I see this a little differently.. being with the "right person" doesn't mean it has to be a soul mate sorta thing.. but it does mean someone compatible with our hopes, dreams, having a similar vision for life/ family or it's going to remain an uphill battle... this I feel is very very important for a marriage to work and not be miserable, basically...
> 
> I say this from what I have personally witnessed in life from those around me.... IF a couple is *compatible ENOUGH *, *reasonable ENOUGH* to communicate well, *unselfish ENOUGH* to make each other a priority, caring for each others needs .....YES, by all means, hang in there... there is HOPE!
> 
> ...


I agree. 

Marriage is not supposed to feel like a life sentence. 

If you are with someone you are naturally compatible with, it should more or less just "flow."

And thank goodness there is always the option of divorce! No one needs to feel trapped anymore.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Married but Happy said:


> *I used to be watering crab grass. *Now the grass really is greener on this side, and it's the real thing.


 Great analogy, MBT!

Some people are truly not worth it.


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

katiecrna said:


> I have a very negative opinion on divorce. Of course there are times when divorce is a must: times of abuse, cheating, addiction etc. but I'm NOT speaking to these times.


I have to agree with you on this. In my situation, there have been no physical affairs, but I had an emotional affair, I suspect she did as well when I found she was texting a lot with another man, and then again recently I found a suggestive text on her phone from another man. After a lot of searching, spying and everything else, I have found that there never was any kind of physical affair on her side, she hasn't been in contact with the man she was texting since I confronted her on it, and the most recent does seem to be just an unsolicited text as she says it was.

Our marriage has had issues for years now, no abuse or anything really bad, just a disconnect between us. When I first posted my story on TAM, everyone told me to divorce, but I didn't then and still don't see that as a solution. We have a young son, we do have a good dynamic together, and we don't really fight. Sure we argue about things, especially when we try to hash out our problems, but we don't really fight about it, we just have this disconnect with each other.

As much as people here tell me over and over again that I should just move on, I don't feel that our problems are big enough to throw away 15 years of our lives over, break up a family and possibly hurt our son over, or have to reset our lives because of a couple bad years and some stupid mistakes we've made. Things have improved over the last month or so, not a lot, but they have improved. The way I look at it now is, we need to at least make the effort and take a little more time to try and fix things between us. If they ultimately don't work out then fine, at least we can say we tried. But if we were to just end things now I think there would be that big "What if?" hanging over both of us for the rest of our lives.


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## BlueandBlond (Jun 20, 2016)

My first marriage lasted 3.5 years and with one child involved. I was 23 when we got married. I was growing and he wasn't. I wanted certain things and he wanted to stay the same. I got us help, and he didn't want it. So, I left! It wasn't a good fit. We ended up great friends. I have been remarried for 18 years with two more children and we mesh well together. 

I believe that when you get married it is a job that must be worked on every day. Except in those times of abuse, etc. But, when you don't like your spouse anymore or you're not in love, and you are unhappy, why stay? You will only become to resent your spouse and if you have kids they will see that. I absolutely agree that you should always try but both people in the marriage must want to try. I also think that staying with one person throughout your whole life is not in our system especially from a young age. Wait until your very late 20's and early 30's. Have fun before that and don't settle down until you are ready and you have found someone that you like to spend your time with and can fun with and talk to.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

SA,
The amazing thing about this is the play book folks use. Basically a crap marriage where no one cheats is ok. But a good/great marriage where someone strays one time - is sent to the trash bin. 




SimplyAmorous said:


> I see this a little differently.. being with the "right person" doesn't mean it has to be a soul mate sorta thing.. but it does mean someone compatible with our hopes, dreams, having a similar vision for life/ family or it's going to remain an uphill battle... this I feel is very very important for a marriage to work and not be miserable, basically...
> 
> I say this from what I have personally witnessed in life from those around me.... IF a couple is *compatible ENOUGH *, *reasonable ENOUGH* to communicate well, *unselfish ENOUGH* to make each other a priority, caring for each others needs .....YES, by all means, hang in there... there is HOPE!
> 
> ...


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

MEM2020 said:


> SA,
> The amazing thing about this is the play book folks use. Basically a crap marriage where no one cheats is ok. But a good/great marriage where someone strays one time - is sent to the trash bin.


That's a perfect analogy. People are human, we make mistakes and stupid choices, especially in times of despair. The real determining factor is the reaction after the crash, and not the immediate reaction. If a WS says straight out that they're leaving, that's one thing, but if there is any indecision in what happens next you at least owe it to yourself to take some time to not only calm down from the situation but to see what's going to happen. There was a quote I saw once that said something like "When a lightbulb in your house goes out, you fix the lightbulb. You don't go out and get a whole new house", and honestly that really does sum things up perfectly.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> SA,
> The amazing thing about this is the play book folks use. Basically a crap marriage where no one cheats is ok. But a good/great marriage where someone strays one time - is sent to the trash bin.


I can totally understand how some people cant remain with a spouse who has lied, deceived and cheated. The trust and intimacy is shattered, the marriage vows destroyed. Some people cant have sex with that person again, its just far too painful. 
For some it may depend on whether it was a one off thing, or if it went on for months or even years, and also whether the person actually came clean or they were discovered by the cheated on spouse. 
I think for many its the lies and deception that are just as painful as the actual sex. I am not sure how that person can be trusted again.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

AtMyEnd said:


> That's a perfect analogy. People are human, we make mistakes and stupid choices, especially in times of despair. The real determining factor is the reaction after the crash, and not the immediate reaction. If a WS says straight out that they're leaving, that's one thing, but if there is any indecision in what happens next you at least owe it to yourself to take some time to not only calm down from the situation but to see what's going to happen. There was a quote I saw once that said something like "When a lightbulb in your house goes out, you fix the lightbulb. You don't go out and get a whole new house", and honestly that really does sum things up perfectly.


I don't see cheating as 'a mistake'. Its a conscious decision, often over many months or even years, to continually lie, deceive and have sex with someone other than your spouse. 
Its rather more than a light bulb going, its as if the whole house has burnt to the ground. Yes some can and do painstakingly rebuild the house brick by brick, while others are just too devastated and hurt and walk away.Neither are right or wrong.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Yes

A flow, a rhythm. 



jld said:


> I agree.
> 
> Marriage is not supposed to feel like a life sentence.
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Diana,

What I really like about this is the level of reasoned differentiation you make between these situations. 

And hey - it is 100% right for a BS who cannot forgive and knows they never will forgive - to leave the marriage. That is the smart and right move for them. 

My unease here at TAM is that there is a group of folks who sort of act as if they should be making that determination for each BS who shows up here. And their recommendation is always the same: a scorched earth divorce 

Which includes a weaponized form of mass disclosure. 





Diana7 said:


> I can totally understand how some people cant remain with a spouse who has lied, deceived and cheated. The trust and intimacy is shattered, the marriage vows destroyed. Some people cant have sex with that person again, its just far too painful.
> For some it may depend on whether it was a one off thing, or if it went on for months or even years, and also whether the person actually came clean or they were discovered by the cheated on spouse.
> I think for many its the lies and deception that are just as painful as the actual sex. I am not sure how that person can be trusted again.


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

Diana7 said:


> I don't see cheating as 'a mistake'. Its a conscious decision, often over many months or even years, to continually lie, deceive and have sex with someone other than your spouse.
> Its rather more than a light bulb going, its as if the whole house has burnt to the ground. Yes some can and do painstakingly rebuild the house brick by brick, while others are just too devastated and hurt and walk away.Neither are right or wrong.


I don't see cheating as a mistake either, it's wrong plain and simple, but sometimes when there's a complete disconnect in a relationship with little to know communication, it happens. Like I had said in another post, I had an EA for a little over a year. Did I purposely set out to have an EA, no. I had been playing an online game at night, kept running into the same woman and we would chat from time to time about the game and life in general. As things went on we got closer and closer, but again it wasn't like I set out to find someone else, it just happened. My marriage was a disaster, there was little to no communication, and talking to this woman seemed to fill a void in my life. Was it right, no, but it happened. It was a mistake.

I feel the same way about physical affairs to an extent. After having my EA, I can see how the relationship can just happen. And yes, I think that there was a chance that if my OW lived closer that things may have turned physical, I had genuine feelings for her. So yes, I see how a person can get caught in the moment of missing the attention and affection they expect and want from their significant other, and making the mistake of sleeping with someone who has been filling that void. The big variable is if after it happens once, if it continues. That's what the conscious decision is, ok you've made the mistake, do you regret it and end things, or do you consciously continue with the affair?

We're all human, we all get tempted, and we all make mistakes. The real game changer is how you deal with the mistakes after they happen.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

MrsHolland said:


> I have a very negative opinion on people that stay in dysfunctional marriages. Sometimes divorce really is the better option.
> 
> And I have never met one person who years later regretted getting divorced.
> 
> The grass was much greener on the other side for me.


100% agreement with this. Personally, I regretted neither of the divorces I initiated, not for a single second. Did I regret the marriages didnt work out? Of course. But divorce was absolutely the right path. Also I have never known someone who regretted their divorce either.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

I am very pro-marriage. My take on why so many people have multiple divorces is that they don't learn from their mistakes.

I can't tell you the number of stories I have heard of women (and some men) in abusive relationship who divorce and then find another abusive partner.

When I was very close to divorcing my wife because she would not have sex, I determined that I was going to "fix myself" so that if I could work at saving my marriage and if I couldn't save my marriage at least I would not be damaged goods for my next relationship. I think everyone needs to view a marriage in crisis as an opportunity to get themselves cured and prepared for a proper marital relationship either with their current spouse or the next one.


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## tropicalbeachiwish (Jun 1, 2016)

.


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## ChargingCharlie (Nov 14, 2012)

MEM2020 said:


> Katie,
> 
> I have had many folks say they knew the marriage was bad, and proceeded to procreate anyway - at which point they felt stuck.
> 
> ...


Bolded part is me - once the kids arrived, I really started noticing the things that my wife did that really annoy me. Before kids I may have noticed, but didn't think about it. Now those things bug me to no end to the point that I don't even like being around her most of the time. I play with the kids and read to them - she sits on her ass while they play. She gives them cookies for dinner because she's too tired, has a headache, etc. At least she's moving up in Candy Crush.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Tergis said:


> I can't tell you the number of stories I've read and heard about people who get married to someone when they both have kids, and because of those kids and the conflicts that are caused, the ensuing marriages fail. In fact, according to statistics anyone can easily search for, second marriages with children fail more often than first marriages BECAUSE of such children related conflicts- it's often cited as the number ONE reason.
> 
> Which of course wipes out your "take" on people suffering from multiple divorces because it's a new situation when blending families, so it's not a matter of learning from something that happened before.
> 
> Another one is that people who have divorced have clearly demonstrated their inability or unwillingness to sustain a long term relationship. That's who they are, they aint going to change, and it's no different then say, a known alcoholic walking into a bar expecting that they won't order a drink.


What you say doesnt apply to a lot of divorced people. We are both very anti divorce. We both had a divorce after long first marriages, 23 and 25 years. Neither of us was responsible for those marriages breaking up, and my husband was divorced against his will after she found another man. We both believe that you should keep the promises made in marriage unless there is serious abuse or adultery. We have been married for 12 years this year and there will be no divorce. We are committed to each other 100%.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Tergis said:


> I can't tell you the number of stories I've read and heard about people who get married to someone when they both have kids, and because of those kids and the conflicts that are caused, the ensuing marriages fail. In fact, according to statistics anyone can easily search for, second marriages with children fail more often than first marriages BECAUSE of such children related conflicts- it's often cited as the number ONE reason.
> 
> Which of course wipes out your "take" on people suffering from multiple divorces because it's a new situation when blending families, so it's not a matter of learning from something that happened before.
> 
> Another one is that people who have divorced have clearly demonstrated their inability or unwillingness to sustain a long term relationship. That's who they are, they aint going to change, and it's no different then say, a known alcoholic walking into a bar expecting that they won't order a drink.


This of course assumes that everyone who is divorced is the cause of the divorce. Often times, one person in a divorce was perfectly capable of maintaining a long term marriage. It was the other person who went out and cheated, was abusive, etc. It takes two to make a marriage work. One person cannot do that alone, no matter how much they would like to.


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## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> I have a very negative opinion on divorce. Of course there are times when divorce is a must: times of abuse, cheating, addiction etc. but I'm NOT speaking to these times.
> 
> (polite snip of really good stuff)
> 
> My point is, we should all be determined to make our first marriage work. Because when we see issues right away people are like oh wow divorce! But the reality is, there are going to be issues, and the grass is not greener on the other side, it truly is where you water it.


What if the other person "wants it to work" but puts in zero time? No time with the spouse at all, making every motion to spend zero time, claims this is their natural state, leave me alone. 

We don't argue. But we don't have much of a relationship, IMO. And...no kids.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

EleGirl said:


> This of course assumes that everyone who is divorced is the cause of the divorce. Often times, one person in a divorce was perfectly capable of maintaining a long term marriage. It was the other person who went out and cheated, was abusive, etc. It takes two to make a marriage work. One person cannot do that alone, no matter how much they would like to.


Exactly, that was what happened with my husband and I in out previous marriages.


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