# Modern Men Part Deux (long again!)



## Boogsie (Aug 24, 2010)

My original thread sparked the type of debate / conversation I was looking for and I am learning a lot from it. It got me thinking about something that runs parallel to that thread, but really deserves its own.

As I said in the first thread, I was brought up and taught to treat women like princesses. Open doors, throw your coat in a puddle, never hit, treat her like a princess, listen to her attentively, etc. Make sure their needs are met so they have no reason to stray and so on. Just as I was taught. Now, from talking to my grandfather, older gents at work, and so on, I've learned that my upbringing was much the same as theirs, without some of the balance brought from things like assertiveness, etc. We were taught the same thing.

Over the last few weeks I've also been talking to women of various ages (who I was certain wouldn't sue me for sexual harrasment!) about how they were taught to treat men as they were growing up.

My conversations revealed some very interesting things. Most of the women I talked to said they were never really taught anything like us guys are taught growing up. They are taught to be independent, they don't really need men, even though if you find the right one they can make life easier. Some were even taught that men are only after one thing and you can use that to your advantage. Honestly, hearing that kind of blew my mind. Mostly, though, I was hearing a description of what I would call "Modern Women".

Where this gets interesting is the few women at work I talked to who are near retirement age. Some of those women were brought up and their mothers taught them the "50s" female stereotype. Things like, keep a neat house, make yourself up for you husband, greet him when he comes home from work and take care of his physical needs.

What I got out of this was this: It seems to me we went from one extreme to another. We went from a super-submissive woman who gave everything to family and nothing to herself, to a type of woman who doesn't give much to her husband, and everything to herself.

It seems to me that somewhere along the way we are going to have to find a happy medium between the two.

Most relationships I see around me seem to work this way. Husbands are "nice-guys" who are generally at the beck and call of their wives, and they all seem to complain (read want / need) the same things I do. Intimacy, companionship, etc.

Looking back over both of my marriages, I do see them going in the same direction. I do everything my wife wants. Wait on her, help her around the house (she's a SAHM and all our children are adults now), etc. In return I get almost nothing that I require out of the relationship. 

When we have discussed this in the past I get the "I do things all the time to show you I love you. I do things around the house, cook you dinner..." etc.

I did a little experiment. I stopped meeting ALL of her needs for about two months. No helping around the house, etc. I just went to work, and came home and did what I wanted. She was furious. So I told her, "I do things all the time that show you I love. I go to work. I bring home a paycheck..." etc. It didn't click. Then I tried to explain to her that I do things for her BECAUSE I love her and I WANT to do things for her. Not to the nice guy level of approval seeking type behavior I used to, but because she's my wife and I genuinely WANT to do some things to help her.

She still doesn't get it. The friends I have who are very happily married have that dynamic. The husband and wife do things for each other, not because they want to, but out of love for the other spouse. A dynamic that hasn't existed in either of my marriages. Both of my marriages have consisted of me going out of my way to meet my wifes needs, and succeeding (both have told me this), but no amount of talking, discussion, etc, brought them around to want to attempt to meet mine.

In short, I've wondered if this disconnect is related to the dramatic shift from the 50's style wife to the modern liberated woman.

I'm thinking this may be the reason why there are so few "balanced" men today. Most of the men I know are either nice-guys or a-holes. I know very few balanced men. As boys we are taught how to meet a womans needs, though not really how to be men. Conversely, most women seem to not be taught how to meet a mans needs (other than being told all men want is sex and they are sex hounds and you should only have sex with your husband if you want to, well, because he's a sex fiend).

I find it odd that in two marriages, when I stopped meeting my spouses needs the objections were loud and often, but when I voice the same concerns they are disregarded with a quick little, "I'll try.". You can't really work on a problem until you find the why of it. I'm still looking for the why. 

I'll give you an example. Tomorrow is my 40th birthday. Every year my wife asks me what I want for my birthday. My answer is always the same. I tell her "I want hot monkey lovin'". It is that simple, I don't want a gift, or a party. Just intimacy with enthusiasm. It has been well over 5 years since I've been intimate with my wife on my birthday, or Christmas or any time she asks me what I want for a gift and I tell her intimacy. Even sitting her down and having serious discussions on the whys of my wants, I still go unheard.

My sex life boils down to me still trying to "put her in the mood" and ends up with me getting my intimacy through my new-found assertiveness. I can tell you, it isn't much of a way to have a marriage. 

Her needs are first, my needs are last. Is this a problem with the way we are raised today as males and females?

I'm to the point where my wife shows more interest in her toe nails than she does me. I've told her a few times now in the last 6 months I won't stay in a loveless, affectionless, sexless marriage. For me it is just not an option any more. She has been ignoring my warnings which is tell me 1) she wants out, but doesn't want to "be the bad guy" 2) She is perfectly happy with a good man, and a good husband who doesn't have the balls to put and end to it (read she is lazy wants to put forth NO effort or 3) She really doesn't care but doesn't want to divorce because then her life would get really hard.

So, did we come too far around from where we started? Are women not being taught how to be women like men aren't being properly instructed on how to be men?


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## themrs (Oct 16, 2009)

*So, did we come too far around from where we started? Are women not being taught how to be women like men aren't being properly instructed on how to be men? *

Like I said in the other post, it's difficult for a woman in the world we live in to go from the competant employee or manager at her job to the "yes dear" doting wife at home. There's no switch or anything that you can turn off once you come home from work.

I don't know what the problem is with your wife. I mean, she is a SAHM with adult children. What else does she have to do but focus on the marriage? You guys should be having the time of your lives! 

I think women have lost the element of fear. Women used to fear their husbands leaving them. This made them more willing to do what they thought was necessary for him to stay. The fear is gone. I must admit, I don't fear my husband leaving. I want him to stay because I love him, but I don't fear what would happen if he left. I feel like I'd be just fine. 

It seems like men fear their wives more now than they did then and wives have absolutely NO fear whatsoever. In any good relationship there should be a healthy level of fear between the two people. I'm not certain how men can make women fear them again, but I think that is what is missing in a nutshell.


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

I kind of wonder if women are too concerned with being equal to men - especially in the workforce. They've made sacrifices at home in order to prove to the world that they are just as good and smart as the men.

They aren't taught how to "treat" a man. The focus is now on how to compete with him.

The typical family model has also changed. Economically, its harder for a man to make enough money on his own to support the American Dream. So now both parents have to work. Or at least that's what society tells us.

Seems like there should be more balance. In my opinion, women should take 5 years off - not just 6 months - when they have children. We should live in smaller houses, drive older cars, and lower our standard of living if that's what it takes to put some focus back on the family. That's what I thought my wife and I were doing until life got in the way.

I feel somewhat sexist saying that (yes, I'm a nice guy). But women are the natural choice to stay at home because their bodies need some time to recover from pregnancy and childbirth and men can't breastfeed. Also, realistically, society still frowns upon men being stay-at-home dads

Both parents are working 50 hours a week in order to maintain a certain lifestyle. No time for the kids. No time for each other.

No time to cook, so we'll have Pizza Hut on Monday, and McDonald's on Tuesday, go out to TGIFridya's on Wednesday, etc., etc...

We'll hire other people to clean our large house and let total strangers raise our children.

We'll use Facebook, e-mail and texting to replace conversation.

"Hows ur day? Luv u. B home soon."

Copy and paste this message as your status if you love your spouse. Click *here* if you love your children.

We're all too tired for sex.

Maybe women are trying so hard to be our equals just because they've been told they can be. But maybe they need to consider the costs. 

Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.


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## Chris Taylor (Jul 22, 2010)

Interesting thinking.

When my wife and I were trying to get our marriage back on track, she told me three things I needed to change. When I mentioned something that I wanted her to change, she replied that she is who she is and I should accept her for who she is. When I laid out the discrepancy, she finally saw that she can't have it both ways.

Everyone changes. A woman brought up in the 50's style may change to a more liberated woman, either because of necessity (needing to supplement family income) or desire (agreeing with the feminist movement). I know I'm not the same person I was when I got married 38 years ago.

The question is whether you can live with someone who changed or won't change.


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## cherrypie18 (Feb 21, 2010)

I don't really know what other women were taught or not growing up, but I can tell you what my mother taught me.

*Men don't like nagging/complaining wives.

They don't enjoy being around a wife who's constantly sick/ill/feeling unwell.

Women need to take care of their appearance and hygiene.

We should not deny our husbands sex unless really sick. They'll go find it somewhere else if it becomes a habit...but they might also just cheat no matter how good the sex life is. Nevertheless gotta keep it hot.

The husband is the head of the household - respect him - outsiders will respect him is he's respected at home, and disrespect him if disrespected at home. 

Don't criticize him (or just anyone be it a sibling, parents, husband ..whoever) in front of other people. *

That's all I could think of... I have my own tips from reading numerous magazines, articles about marriages, talking to people etc but I don't have the time to write about it right now.


P.S. there are other things she taught me about being a wife but they're a tad too dated which I didn't accept...and she's come to realize she was kind of wrong lol


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

What happened at the end of your 2 month experiment?

Did you revert to being mr. helpful around the house? If so, and if you don't mind my asking, why would you revert to a behavior pattern that reinforces her belief that only HER needs matter?




Boogsie said:


> My original thread sparked the type of debate / conversation I was looking for and I am learning a lot from it. It got me thinking about something that runs parallel to that thread, but really deserves its own.
> 
> As I said in the first thread, I was brought up and taught to treat women like princesses. Open doors, throw your coat in a puddle, never hit, treat her like a princess, listen to her attentively, etc. Make sure their needs are met so they have no reason to stray and so on. Just as I was taught. Now, from talking to my grandfather, older gents at work, and so on, I've learned that my upbringing was much the same as theirs, without some of the balance brought from things like assertiveness, etc. We were taught the same thing.
> 
> ...


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## Boogsie (Aug 24, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> What happened at the end of your 2 month experiment?
> 
> Did you revert to being mr. helpful around the house? If so, and if you don't mind my asking, why would you revert to a behavior pattern that reinforces her belief that only HER needs matter?


The answer to your question is, yes. I did revert. With that said, I'm not longer the man or lack-of-man I was back then. I'm still trying to correct the same issues, but my rope these days is very short and in another month or two I will probably be divorced. I'm willing to bet my next paycheck though that when I tell my wife I want a divorce I'll have the most sexually available wife in the world! She loves her SAH cushy life and I fully intend to upset the apple cart. 

After all the changes I've gone through in the last few years, I think she still sees me as the spineless doormat, even though the relationship dynamic has changed considerably. I've given her every wake up call I can think of, including telling her directly "I will not stay in a marriage like this." and she does nothing so I have only to conclude that she doesn't care, even when she says she does.

Here is an example of what I mean. Our intimate life is in a small rut the size of the Grand Canyon. I work from home Thursdays and Fridays. So yesterday I was sitting behind her on my work laptop and she mentioned to me she was having a hard time getting to sleep at night. I sent her a message over MSN messenger and said, "Too much pent up sexual energy. We'll have to see if we can fix that." Her response was a very emontionless, "yeah right." So, I sent her another message, "You need to unleash your inner freak and get rid of some of that energy. If you are having trouble sleeping, I'm the man who can help you."

The reply to that was, "I don't have an inner freak and I don't even want one."

I tried to keep the banter going but there was zero interest. So yeah, this is what I'm up against.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Boogsie said:


> As I said in the first thread, I was brought up and taught to treat women like princesses. Open doors, throw your coat in a puddle, never hit, treat her like a princess, listen to her attentively, etc. Make sure their needs are met so they have no reason to stray and so on. Just as I was taught. Now, from talking to my grandfather, older gents at work, and so on, I've learned that my upbringing was much the same as theirs, without some of the balance brought from things like assertiveness, etc. We were taught the same thing.


Yes, but WHO taught you those things?

I know in my case, it was certainly not my father. Although I did get the message from him that "you never hit a girl."

It was my mother who encouraged compliance, sensitivity, taught that anger was bad, don't be confrontational, don't fight and cultivated an over eager willingness to please in the hopes of receiving positive reinforcement and acknowledgement.

That isn't meant to be an incrimination or a complaint. It's just the way it worked out. My mother was far more invested in us emotionally than I ever remember my father being. I'm not going to fault her for taking the time to teach her kids how to be better human beings - that was her intention.

I don't doubt that the message of 'be respectful to women and treat them well' is universal - and pointedly appropriate.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Curious to know how you believe the dynamic has changed? Have you delivered 'consequences' as a result of the shift at all?

I guess my point is, in the scheme of the game of carrots and sticks, is your focus still on looking to give her carrot when she should be getting the stick.



Boogsie said:


> The answer to your question is, yes. I did revert. With that said, I'm not longer the man or lack-of-man I was back then. I'm still trying to correct the same issues, but my rope these days is very short and in another month or two I will probably be divorced. I'm willing to bet my next paycheck though that when I tell my wife I want a divorce I'll have the most sexually available wife in the world! She loves her SAH cushy life and I fully intend to upset the apple cart.
> 
> After all the changes I've gone through in the last few years, I think she still sees me as the spineless doormat, even though the relationship dynamic has changed considerably. I've given her every wake up call I can think of, including telling her directly "I will not stay in a marriage like this." and she does nothing so I have only to conclude that she doesn't care, even when she says she does.
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

If her behavior is unacceptable to you, then why did you revert to being helpful to her? 

People respond to action cues much much more powerfully than they do to verbal messages. So if you reverted to being helpful - which frankly is ludicrous given that you have a full time job and she has no kids to manage - you sent her a very clear message that you love her/are in love with her and find her treatment of you acceptable. 

Just a gentle suggestion. If you wish to become skilled at asserting yourself you need to practice being assertive every day. 

It is perfectly fine to tell someone (provided it is true):
Our workloads are unbalanced. I am going to rebalance them. And our priorities are even more out of whack. Your happiness was my highest priority and mine was not even close to yours.

And since being assertive is utterly distinct from affect I would practice being:
- Fun and playful - when you feel like it - and when you are around
- Firm and tough when she complains - (we are not even going to discuss any of your issues/complaints until my needs are being fully met)
- Independent - go to the gym - out with friends - spend a LOT less time with her

If she sees you as overall happy (not angry and sullen) AND generally indifferent to her wants/needs, you may get a much more positive reaction from her than you have ever seen PROVIDED you don't cave when she threatens to divorce you. Which you shouldn't as you seem inclined in that direction already. 

Right now - if you are doing more than "half" the heavy lifting and she is ignoring your needs - you are signalling that you are ok with that. If you give that signal - you can't honestly expect change. And do not tell me how you have "talked" to her about this. Talk - ONLY works if you have respect. You don't. When there is no respect you only get results via consequences. In this case by ceasing ALL helpful acts at home. 









Boogsie said:


> The answer to your question is, yes. I did revert. With that said, I'm not longer the man or lack-of-man I was back then. I'm still trying to correct the same issues, but my rope these days is very short and in another month or two I will probably be divorced. I'm willing to bet my next paycheck though that when I tell my wife I want a divorce I'll have the most sexually available wife in the world! She loves her SAH cushy life and I fully intend to upset the apple cart.
> 
> After all the changes I've gone through in the last few years, I think she still sees me as the spineless doormat, even though the relationship dynamic has changed considerably. I've given her every wake up call I can think of, including telling her directly "I will not stay in a marriage like this." and she does nothing so I have only to conclude that she doesn't care, even when she says she does.
> 
> ...


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

nice777guy said:


> I kind of wonder if women are too concerned with being equal to men - especially in the workforce. They've made sacrifices at home in order to prove to the world that they are just as good and smart as the men.
> 
> They aren't taught how to "treat" a man. The focus is now on how to compete with him.
> 
> ...


Nice assessment, and worthy of the lament. I'm not advocating moving backward, but I don't like the forward trajectory for families that you spelled out either.


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

Boogsie,

You are not alone. I think a whole generation of men were raised to approach marriage in a way not compatible with maintaining a good family balance in today's society 

Basically, the mantra I learned was "If Momma ain't happy, ain't nobody happy."

The implication is that the Mother set the tone for the household and would do whatever she could to make life comfortable for her husband and kids. If she gets treated right, everybody else gets treated right. It's a symbiotic relationship.

Now, you have a generation of men who have been trained to in the old school of doing whatever is needed to keep their wives happy on the homefront. Economic and societal shifts, however, have pushed women into the workforce. This is good for equality and opportunity for all. But it wreaks havoc on all of us trained in the old way. We don't understand the new societal bargain.

Women have moved on. They understand the new rules. Because many will (or at least can) go into the workforce to provide for themselves, they are free to abdicate their traditional role of family nuturer. That simply is not in the job description that wives see for themselves anymore. This outlook seems to be true even for stay-at-home Moms not currently in the work force.

The problem is that many men (myself included) have not moved past the need to be the Momma happiness enabler. And many women expect to be contnued to be treated this way - even though they don't necessarily feel the burden of being the homefront nurterer. 

They are more than happy to have us continue playing by the old rules in which men strive to "make momma happy." But they only reciprocate in this kindness when they "want" to out of love, not when they have to in order to fulfill their role as designated nurturer.

Essentially, you have an imbalance. Many of us men continue to dutifully do what we can to "make Momma happy," building up a critical mass of good deeds that we expect will be returned to us in kindness, love and support from our wives. But our deeds fall on deaf ears as wives come to expect this type of treatment but no longer perceve the need to fill their end of the bargain. 

It usually takes imperceptive men years - or decades - to recognize that the kindness contract has been irrevocably busted. By that time, habits are established. Women come to expect the one-way relationship as standard operating procedure. Men don't get payoff from making sure Momman is happy and then build up such a wall of resentment, they can't stand it anymore.

That's where you're at right now. I'm there too. 

I have no magic bullet answers out there. All I know is that we have a lot of selfish princess wives with unrealistic expectations of what they should gain from their relationships compared to what they give back to their husband.

I've made steady progress over the years but life really has gotten easier because the kids are older and the marathon of toddler parenting has eased a bit. My wife's attitude and outlook are pretty much the same as ever. The expectations remain high. The return I get from her pales compared to the effort I put in.

My 18-year-old tells me he never wants to marry. Given the life example he's seen, I can't say I blame him. The good news is that the power will shift again with the next generation. Guys like my son will recognize the crock of a deal that marriage is today and will be harder catches to turn into husbands. Women will actually have to start showing kindness, love and nurturing again to bring them to the table.

Me and you, we're screwed. But there is hope on the horizon!


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## Boogsie (Aug 24, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> If her behavior is unacceptable to you, then why did you revert to being helpful to her?
> 
> People respond to action cues much much more powerfully than they do to verbal messages. So if you reverted to being helpful - which frankly is ludicrous given that you have a full time job and she has no kids to manage - you sent her a very clear message that you love her/are in love with her and find her treatment of you acceptable.
> 
> ...


Mem, I think we have a bit of a misunderstanding here. That experiment was a few years ago. Back when I was still intent on changing her. I reverted because I didn't know what else to do. I've grown from then and realized I CAN'T change her. I can only change myself, express my wants and needs, and if they aren't and won't be met, then leave.

Our dynamic has changed because of a few things. I no longer try to force her to change. I'm changing me. That means speaking out when I'm pissed, telling her what I want, taking control of my own life, instead of leading as she wants.

I've changed and I'm starting to actually become a real man. So far she is choosing to not come along for the ride. I'm giving her some time to adjust but if she doesn't I'm certainly going to put an end to. I love my wife, but I'm through with her being my roommate.


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

MarriedTex said:


> Me and you, we're screwed. But there is hope on the horizon!


Well said!

Its like a pendulum. Its bound to swing back to some degree. Much of it is an overreaction to centuries of men having too much power, simply because we didn't have to carry babies and have more natural upper body strength (cavemen through the beginning of the industrial revolution maybe?).

But I also think / hope that the next generation of *women* put a little more effort into "family" than the current generation.

It's real popular for people to talk about "work/life balance" - but for men, its still frowned upon.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

B,
I never suggested you try to "force" her to do anything. I agree that you can't. My question for you is simply this: Have you stopped doing work (housework/cooking/etc.) that worsens the imbalance in your respective workloads? 

If not, why not? Meaning why would you work a full time job and then proceed to do part of her very part time job?




Boogsie said:


> Mem, I think we have a bit of a misunderstanding here. That experiment was a few years ago. Back when I was still intent on changing her. I reverted because I didn't know what else to do. I've grown from then and realized I CAN'T change her. I can only change myself, express my wants and needs, and if they aren't and won't be met, then leave.
> 
> Our dynamic has changed because of a few things. I no longer try to force her to change. I'm changing me. That means speaking out when I'm pissed, telling her what I want, taking control of my own life, instead of leading as she wants.
> 
> I've changed and I'm starting to actually become a real man. So far she is choosing to not come along for the ride. I'm giving her some time to adjust but if she doesn't I'm certainly going to put an end to. I love my wife, but I'm through with her being my roommate.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Why are you so defeatist? 




MarriedTex said:


> Boogsie,
> 
> You are not alone. I think a whole generation of men were raised to approach marriage in a way not compatible with maintaining a good family balance in today's society
> 
> ...


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## Boogsie (Aug 24, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> B,
> I never suggested you try to "force" her to do anything. I agree that you can't. My question for you is simply this: Have you stopped doing work (housework/cooking/etc.) that worsens the imbalance in your respective workloads?
> 
> If not, why not? Meaning why would you work a full time job and then proceed to do part of her very part time job?


Ok, now that we are on the same page. The answer to your question is no, I do no longer help her out. I know she notices because she complains about what she does have to do. 

Its really a catch 22 and this is why I'm thinking divorce is eminent. Since I did quit pulling extra weight, she's really cut back on what she knows I need from her. She thinks that because she's withholding sex and intimacy, I'll go back to the old way and start doing more so I can take the scraps she wants to feed me. She hasn't yet figured out she can no longer manipulate. This is the main reason why I think we are headed toward divorce. it almost seems to her like it is not work working on. That is her choice. I know I can make it on my own, hell, at one time I did just about everything around here. For her, it will be a serious wake up call. She isn't ready to be single again.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

B,
Good. That is the right way to go. I am starting to think that I am not directly very helpful to people with sexual issues. I have always treated sex - quality and frequency as the ultimate barometer of how my W feels about ME. 

And so I always managed that part of our marriage aggressively. The "tough love" approach to sex consisted of:
- Sex is not optional 
- Infrequent sex is not optional
- Blatant mercy sex is totally not optional 
That said - it is your job to tell me what your turn ons/turn offs are - both in bed and out of bed. And it is my job to make sure that overall you feel desire for me. 

So - what with sex not being optional - she was brutally honest and I accepted and acted on her feedback. But she NEVER tried to extract concessions, an imbalanced workload, or any other nonsense in exchange for sex. ALL of her comments about desire, had to do with desire. I will say though that for my W to feel a certain amount of passion she needs a partner willing to have conflict with her. Not yelling and screaming and throwing stuff conflict. But genuine - painful - quietly intense conflict mixed in with mildly playful violence. 






Boogsie said:


> Ok, now that we are on the same page. The answer to your question is no, I do no longer help her out. I know she notices because she complains about what she does have to do.
> 
> Its really a catch 22 and this is why I'm thinking divorce is eminent. Since I did quit pulling extra weight, she's really cut back on what she knows I need from her. She thinks that because she's withholding sex and intimacy, I'll go back to the old way and start doing more so I can take the scraps she wants to feed me. She hasn't yet figured out she can no longer manipulate. This is the main reason why I think we are headed toward divorce. it almost seems to her like it is not work working on. That is her choice. I know I can make it on my own, hell, at one time I did just about everything around here. For her, it will be a serious wake up call. She isn't ready to be single again.


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

I was talking about this with my husband. A woman can be independent at her company, making all the decisions herself and let people know she is smart, but she still needs to be submissive to her boss. What will she get if she is not submissive to her boss????? At home, her husband is her boss!!! A man needs to feel being respected and looked up to as a capable man, then he will have all the love and sexual desire for her, I am not talking about his original sexual desire, I am talking that the man will feel attracted to the woman who adores him and respects him. A woman needs a man, it is our nature. If a woman thinks like I can't trust this man, I don't want him to ruin my life, I have to protect my rights, then you know what, she shouldn't get married, she doesn't need a man. But the interesting part is, no matter how financial independent they are, no matter how much they are able to protect themselves, they need men. They need to feel being loved and craved. A man needs a woman. A woman needs a man. It is just our human nature. So if you know your emotional needs will be more satisfied if you are with a man you love, why can't the woman let the man run the show. It is just men's nature to feel that he is the head of the show. I respect a man who lets me know that I can't step on his head.

Women have changed, they are able to make their own money now. But deep down in their nature, they still need men' love. Few women are lesbian. Most of the women still want to get married. Most of them look forward to a date with a man.


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

By MEM11363: Why are you so defeatist?


Perhaps you caught me on a bad day. The thread touches the nerve of a relationship riddle I've been trying to solve for years.

If I work extremely hard and cater to all the wife's whims, things go swimmingly in the household. Mom's happy, kid are happy and thriving. Dad goes from task to task to task with little acknowledgement by others (primarily Mom) of what they can do to make him happy. 

During the multiple times I have "manned up" to balance the relationship over the years, she makes everyone (kids and me) miserable through well-honed passive aggressive behavior. This is somewhat similar to OP's wife withdrawing on intimacy when he mans up.

My choices are a placid household where I assume the overwhelming majority of responsibility for getting things done / making sure she's happy or a chaotic, sniping household where the scope of husband / wife duties are more evenly balanced.

It would be nice to be in a relationship where my partner put me first sometimes just to show her love and affection for me. But that's not in the cards. But I can keep things rolling well when I'm clicking on all cylinders. So, divorce would be a selfish option in terms of the type of home environment I can provide my kids. 

Yes, I have enabled her behavior. And, yes, I 've tried a myriad of strategies to foster different behaviors and interactions.

As had been said here before, I can't change her. She can only change herself. Naturally, she is comfortable with my old school approach of making Momma happy. She seems oblivious, however, to the need to reciprocate the time, effort and kindness that I try to pour into our relationship when I'm on my game (which is 98% of the time)

Bottom line. She won't change. I won't leave. If I am defeated, I can only blame myself.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

OK - so you have given up for now. Are you squirreling away money so that when the kids leave you can at least be a non-broke bachelor?





MarriedTex said:


> By MEM11363: Why are you so defeatist?
> 
> 
> Perhaps you caught me on a bad day. The thread touches the nerve of a relationship riddle I've been trying to solve for years.
> ...


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

There is still a lot of work to do in terms of women's rights. I don't think the women's movement is dead by any means nor can it afford to be. There is just as much work to be done for human's rights. I could go on about this for a long time and I'm sure no one would be surprised but since it's not really of interest here I'll refrain.

Beyond my feminist self I play a very traditional role at home. I was a stay at home mother for six years but founded a non-profit to keep my hyperactive brain busy and my desire to make positive change beyond that in our household a possibility (I think I've wrote about this before). It was great because we all volunteered together as a family and I could drag my kids & husband with me and it was awesome for all of us and we got to see the difference our work made and I felt that I had something for me.

I wouldn't trade it for the world. I'm a feminist but I'm a traditionalist as well. My husband and I sacrificed a lot by having me quit my job to be at home with the kids but what was gained was priceless. I just couldn't imagine having someone else know my children, all three amazing to me, better than my husband and I do. We agreed that a smaller house, one car and less free funds was a no brain trade off to have the joy of raising our children. I would share with him all the up's and down's, meet him for lunches and so in turn he also plays a bigger role. 

Bottom-line though...I'm a million things and I don't like being told that I can't be or do something because I'm a woman or 35 or have dark hair...whatever the reason may be. I believe in possibilities. I believe in fulfilling dreams, reaching out, connecting and doing the right thing. I believe this more than I believe that men and women should take on certain roles. Black and whites inevitably make shades of grey if we choose. 

You have to find what works for you and know what you want so that you can have the courage to go after it and then the tenacity and maturity to make sure it endures.

Boogsie, ask your wife what her dreams are. Get reacquainted with her and throw away your stupid score card. Stop focusing on sex or comparing apples to oranges. Find out what cool things the apples and oranges can make together. When a couple is happy and walking through life connected they ignite one another but if they become unhappy they will as passionately blow out the flame. Just as you can ignite and blow out a flame, you can always reignite it.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I agree with everything but the last part of your post. A marriage is only fixable if BOTH people want to fix it. And there IS a point of no return on loss of respect. 




Trenton said:


> There is still a lot of work to do in terms of women's rights. I don't think the women's movement is dead by any means nor can it afford to be. There is just as much work to be done for human's rights. I could go on about this for a long time and I'm sure no one would be surprised but since it's not really of interest here I'll refrain.
> 
> Beyond my feminist self I play a very traditional role at home. I was a stay at home mother for six years but founded a non-profit to keep my hyperactive brain busy and my desire to make positive change beyond that in our household a possibility (I think I've wrote about this before). It was great because we all volunteered together as a family and I could drag my kids & husband with me and it was awesome for all of us and we got to see the difference our work made and I felt that I had something for me.
> 
> ...


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## DanF (Sep 27, 2010)

Boogsie, it sounds to me like you married two princesses that only wanted security, not a partnership. All women aren't like that, I don't think there are many June Cleavers left anymore, either.
My wife has always been the one to take care of our daughter and the home. Since I am away from home a lot on business, she has always been the accountant in the family as well.
We have a very good marriage where we both take from each other and give to one another. We have had a few bumps in the road (she's not June Cleaver), but we have had a wonderful relationship for 30 years.
In the last year, we have really begun to talk to each other about our feelings and dreams and it's been wonderful.
I don't help out at home because I need to, I do it because when I am gone, she has to do it all and needs a break from some of the stuff. She also takes very good care of me when I am home because I've been away for a month or more and we both want to please each other in many ways.
It takes two to make a marriage and it takes two to ruin one. No person can do either alone.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Mem, it's not a guarantee and yes one or the other can decide that their tolerance has been met but it's still possible to rekindle passion. I think there are times our score cards keep us from seeing the other person fairly if at all.


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## Scannerguard (Jan 26, 2010)

> For me it is just not an option any more. She has been ignoring my warnings which is tell me 1) she wants out, but doesn't want to "be the bad guy" 2) She is perfectly happy with a good man, and a good husband who doesn't have the balls to put and end to it (read she is lazy wants to put forth NO effort or 3) She really doesn't care but doesn't want to divorce because then her life would get really hard.


Sounds like my marriage that is just about ended/divorced. In fact, i foudn an email to another guy/friend that said, "I guess I should get divorced but now that we have a 1 year old, I guess I am stuck with him for awhile."

I started a thread in the Divorce forum on the subject that perhaps it's the "man's duty" to end the marriage. 

Take it out behind the shed and shoot it figuratively, you know?

Some women seem to want the final act of manhood to be this in the marriage. I think this would be especially so for women who like to play the matyr (my stb-x, who does come by it honestly - she always used to call her mother a "matyr" - she is a lot like her mother in certain aspects she used to criticize her for).

Our "showdown" at high noon when was when i asked her to come to counseling. She said no the first time, I accepted the answer for a week (I had already attended 3 sessions of marital counseling by myself), then i said, "Would you please come for me, jsut 1 time, even though I know you don't want to? It's important to me."

She said no.

That was when I decided to leave her. My marital counselor gave me the blessing (25 years of experience) stating, "She has checked out of your marriage."

About 2 months later, i was out of the house.

I always use movie analogies in these posts but I guess the only analogy I can think of is when Gene Hackman faces Leonardo DiCaprio in the movie "_The Quick and The Dead_" and he's begging for him to back down. They then draw and Leonardo is shot dead. I didn't want to pull the trigger but I did. 

It's a shame. . .because 3 innocent kids are in the crossfire.

And I guess like that movie, i am the villian. I didn't know how else to make the point I was serious.

Good luck to you.

One of these days, you can going to have to call her and your marriage out into the street for a showdown if she doesn't shape up. It's a shame I have to frame it an "adversarial/opponent" terms but if your woman doesnt' want to frame it in "partnership terms" then that's unfortunately what you have to do - confront her.

Like the nice guy in the Western showdown. . .I think everyone looking on can't believe I did it.


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## Scannerguard (Jan 26, 2010)

PS: To add to this, although i am not sure, and I really don't think about it much, to stay on theme with the "Modern Man/Nice Guy" theme. . .

I am sure she has told all of her family and friends, "See. . .he wasn't such a nice guy to live with. You see what I put up with? Now the real Scannerguard came out. He's a terrible father and doesn't parent them enough. . .all he does is works. I bet he's got a girlfriend."

Blah, blah, blah. Fuss, fuss, fuss.

She had a devoted husband, a devoted father and threw that out the door. 

You have to get used to the idea of being the Bad Boy a little, esp. when you know a lot of it is BS. I even kind of like it sometimes now.

Hopefully my boys are learning.


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## BigBadWolf (Nov 30, 2009)

Scannerguard,

I am pondering this what you just wrote, to get used to being the bad guy.

It is much like I wrote in the thread about empathy, sometimes growing up it is realizing to do things that need to be done, even though inside it hurts.

For example in killing an animal for food. 

As a child I viewed this is cruel, but on growing up I learned even in doing it myself and often with a heavy heart, to do what needs to be done is much the definition of growing up, maturing, and in many ways to becoming a man.

Sometimes life spares us from these lessons for a season, but be sure that season will come eventually.

Thank you for your words.


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

Scannerguard

One day, I was talking to my husband, if we have done our best in a relationship, like for a woman, she has been a very good woman, submissive, devoted, trying hard to meet her man's needs. A man, works hard, provides for the family, helps at home. Anyway, we have done our share to be good spouses, but we don't get reciprocated, you know, life sometimes sucks, you are just not that lucky, you meet people who are indifferent, people who are abusive, people who are way demanding, and you get none out of all the hard effort you put into your marriage. I think the best thing to do is to run away, run far away. We don't want to be killed slowly, we have come to this world, we deserve some happiness, we don't want to live through our whole life miserably. 

For children, we do feel guilty. What I have learned to comfort myself, is by telling myself everybody grows up in a different way. My parents were not divorced, but all the beating and shouting didn't provide me a happy home. The way my father was really put me into a very insecure childhood. Seeing my mother sad in her marriage really made me sad. I felt sad even after I became an adult. 

I am glad that my mother is a kind woman. She still takes care of my father now he is old and sick. But she feels very insecure, even now, they are about 80 years old. 

My mother had been a very good woman, my father treated her very poorly, didn't give her any money to spend. My mother never had money until us kids grew up and got jobs. We started giving them money. But we had to give them money separately, since my father would just take it and squander it. Talking about my father is not a nice feeling. I am just glad that none of our sisters end up in a man like this. 

When I started dating men, whoever just showed his abusive nature, verbally or physically, I ran away, I ran away right away. I didn't care how much begging they did. Stupid men!!!!!


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