# What should my healthy boundaries be?



## LonelyHiker (Dec 15, 2020)

I'm a divorced 44 y/o male, was married for 20 years; been divorced for about 1.5 years; 3 weeks ago I met my female neighbor at my apartment complex. She is also divorced (20 year relationship), but just recently got out of a 1 year relationship that ended poorly and left her feeling pretty hurt. We instantly connected but from the very beginning, she was adamant that she only wanted to be friends because she was not ready for anything else.
We connected so well that we have literally spent every day together in some capacity (either walking together or staying up late at her place talking for hours to going shopping together with her children). We flirt all the time and text each other daily if we are not around each other. She told me she was scared to go any further than friends because she has been so hurt from men in her past (this last relationship was her 2nd meaningful relationship since her divorce). Unfortunately, we both slipped up and we have been intimate together a few times; usually by her asking. She said that I am the first person she has ever had sex without outside of a committed relationship. She said that I just made her comfortable and I'm trustworthy. She recently said that we can't do that anymore because it makes her confused and she thinks its making me more attached.
She does like me, but has said that my friendship is more important to her and she doesn't want to lose that; its even made her cry a few times.
I have told her how I feel about her and that I want to take it to the next step (dating). Her love language is quality time so I know I have been filling that hole in her life. On bad nights, she has even asked me to tuck her into bed (non- sexually) and I have, rubbing her hair and just comforting her. She says I am a good man. I walk her dog when she's at work (if I'm home); she has given me the key to her apartment ect. She said she has shared things with me that she has never shared with anyone else.
I have extended myself in pursuit of her (meaning, I've gone beyond just doing "friend" things for her) to help her heal. I've given massages, helped around her house.. just been a generally good person to her. I respected her boundaries when she has asked even though she has moved those multiple times. I have seen the struggle in her eyes, she has fought back the emotions with me, I'm sure of it.

So here's the problem, her therapist told her that she needs to date, not to get serious, but just to get out and figure out what she wants in life and from men in general. He said she can just go out and talk to men, it doesn't have to be physical. She has always approached dating as an end all, meaning once you start dating, you do it with intentions of being serious and long term, so this is new to her.

So here's the issue; she won't date me. She has said that she can't risk losing my friendship since I am really the only one really close to her right now. She said romantic relationships fail. She has said that me living next door (in our apartment complex) is also an issue in case it ever went bad, she doesn't want to deal with that. I have told her that I'm not a jerk and regardless of what could possibly happen, I wouldn't make it awkward. We don't really cross paths outside of our apartments unless we are specifically going to see each other or hang out for walks ect. Our daughters have already had sleepovers and I would never jeopardize that friendship (kids come first).

She said we can go do things when the kids are involved because that's what friends do; but her and I cannot go out alone. I told her I was willing to wait to see where this would go when she was ready since she was very open about never being anything more than friends. However, she went out on a date last week with an old co-worker and she is going out again tomorrow with him. She said she had a good time and he's soft spoken. 

But literally, two nights ago, I was with her and her kids playing board games at the table and she purposefully moved her leg over to mine so they were touching (but to where her kids could not see); she has done this in the past (she told me she was feeling things out too when she did this in the past). I asked her why she did that and she said she just felt that she wanted to at that moment.

I told her I wouldn't be good person if I ended our friendship over this, but I am heart broken, and I don't know how to navigate this now. I won't end the friendship, I promised I wouldn't and she doesn't deserve that. But now I'm so confused; part of me wants to believe that she is confused too and that's why 1 day she's willing to actually get close and touch me and then the next day tell me I can't say sweet things to her because it makes her confused. Her words exactly "I like it, but it makes me confused, I NEED to only be friends with you". I'm a stupid romantic so my heart wants me to believe that she'll eventually realize what she has with me, but that she's going to have to go out and spend time around other men before she realizes it. Then my brain kicks in and says "stupid, your just going to get hurt because eventually she will find someone else and you'll be left out in the cold".

Up until now I have been just playing this day by day as I know she was confused, but now with her going on the 2nd date AND her being more adamant about boundaries; I'm afraid any chance I had is over and I don't know how to disconnect my heart from her and still remain friends (because that is what she wants and has been adamant about from the beginning).

Looking for any advice from men or women on this; thanks.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

Have you any self esteem? She’s not interested in a relationship with you but she doesn’t mind an occasional ****. If you’re prepared to accept her breadcrumbs then hang around, otherwise make yourself scarce. And just so you know if she gets serious with her boyfriend you will be history. 
Don’t **** where you eat!


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## HarryBosch (6 mo ago)

Games.. You're too old to be playing games, either of you. I'd move on. I would expect this from someone young, not someone 40+.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

She’s confused but gave you a key to her apartment? I think we’re seeing what may go wrong in her relationships - she has poor boundaries and goes too fast before really getting to know someone. You probably are a great guy but it’s way too soon (three weeks?) and unnecessary to give you a key to her apartment.

I would back away - and pursue women who are ready to date at a more normal pace.

Say hey and be kind but this all sounds like too much to deal with this early on.


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## LonelyHiker (Dec 15, 2020)

Andy1001 said:


> Have you any self esteem? She’s not interested in a relationship with you but she doesn’t mind an occasional ****. If you’re prepared to accept her breadcrumbs then hang around, otherwise make yourself scarce. And just so you know if she gets serious with her boyfriend you will be history.
> Don’t **** where you eat!


Andy, I do have self-esteem, she has actually helped with that. Up until this recent 2nd date she planned, it seemed she was ok with letting this play out as friends until she healed (as was I). As for the occasional ****, we have both agreed we can't do that anymore. She was adamant from the beginning about just being friends and I knew the risk. Its just now, I need to figure out what MY healthy boundaries should be going forward -that's all.


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## LonelyHiker (Dec 15, 2020)

*Deidre* said:


> She’s confused but gave you a key to her apartment? I think we’re seeing what may go wrong in her relationships - she has poor boundaries and goes too fast before really getting to know someone. You probably are a great guy but it’s way too soon (three weeks?) and unnecessary to give you a key to her apartment.
> 
> I would back away - and pursue women who are ready to date at a more normal pace.
> 
> Say hey and be kind but this all sounds like too much to deal with this early on.


She has said that her therapist has been working with her on setting proper boundaries, she's just a very trusting person, and I am a nice guy. She gave me the key so I could take her dog out when she was at work.. it wasn't a "here's a key to my place since were dating type thing".. again, she considers me a very good friend which I have been.


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## LonelyHiker (Dec 15, 2020)

HarryBosch said:


> Games.. You're too old to be playing games, either of you. I'd move on. I would expect this from someone young, not someone 40+.


I don't think I have been playing games, I was upfront about how I felt; she was upfront about only being friends.


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## CountryMike (Jun 1, 2021)

LonelyHiker said:


> I don't think I have been playing games, I was upfront about how I felt; she was upfront about only being friends.


Tell her or show her you have another romantic prospect because she's said pretty much that you had to. Because she said she wouldn't be gf or more.

See what see does when she thinks she may lose you.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Just friends is one thing — what you have going on is a semi-relationship. And the one who’s going to get hurt out of this is you.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

LonelyHiker said:


> Andy, I do have self-esteem, she has actually helped with that. Up until this recent 2nd date she planned, it seemed she was ok with letting this play out as friends until she healed (as was I). As for the occasional ****, we have both agreed we can't do that anymore. She was adamant from the beginning about just being friends and I knew the risk. Its just now, I need to figure out what MY healthy boundaries should be going forward -that's all.


I think part of what Andy means is that you are not giving this woman (or any women) the impression that you are a confident man who has many other options with women, because you are spending all your time with her keeping you in the "friend zone", and you are allowing her to control YOUR romantic life and feelings, and you aren't even in a dating relationship with her. So SHE has all the power with you, and you are letting her push you around, which makes you seem like a girlfriend to her, not a potential dating partner.

I would say your boundaries should be that AT MOST you treat her like a guy-friend, and YOU should start dating too, and stop hoping this woman will change her mind about you. She is definitely NOT a good partner for you (or anyone), based on how she has been acting. She sounds immature and insecure and self-centered, and after everything you've gone through, you need a woman who knows what she wants and isn't going to play games. 

It's time for you to find a HEALTHY relationship that will help you learn more about yourself and help you grow and be happy. You aren't going to find that with this woman.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

LonelyHiker said:


> She has said that her therapist has been working with her on setting proper boundaries, she's just a very trusting person, and I am a nice guy. She gave me the key so I could take her dog out when she was at work.. it wasn't a "here's a key to my place since were dating type thing".. again, she considers me a very good friend which I have been.


You don’t really know someone all that well after three weeks. As you can see - you’re not sure what to make of her now. That’s not anyone’s fault but it takes time to really know someone. And trust someone.

She trusts way too quickly. You may be a really nice guy but I think I’d back away.

You probably should give the key back (in my opinion) because it blurs boundaries.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

I could only read a few sentences here and there.

Look up the term “beta orbiter.” Your picture will be beside the definition.


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## CountryMike (Jun 1, 2021)

LonelyHiker said:


> Andy, I do have self-esteem, she has actually helped with that. Up until this recent 2nd date she planned, it seemed she was ok with letting this play out as friends until she healed (as was I). As for the occasional ****, we have both agreed we can't do that anymore. She was adamant from the beginning about just being friends and I knew the risk. Its just now, I need to figure out what MY healthy boundaries should be going forward -that's all.


All this in three weeks? I missed that. If only three weeks in things are par for course.


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## D0nnivain (Mar 13, 2021)

On some level she is dating you. She's putting a different label on it --friends. But you aren't friends. You are lovers. She's not being truthful to herself, to you or even to her therapist. That is a serious red flag because it's a good indicator about why she makes such poor choices about men. 

You already crossed the big boundaries -- sex, being there daily & emotional intimacy so at this point since you can't very well force her to use the correct words to truthfully describe what is going on here -- you two are in a relationship -- I have no idea what boundaries are left. I do know that somebody is going to get hurt so you best guard your heart & stop putting all your eggs in here basket.

The fact that she gave you a key to her apartment after 3 weeks is further evidence of her bad decision making. 

There is no meaningful way to go back to platonic friends now that you have had sex. How are you going to feel when you see her with one of these other men she's supposed to casually date in the hallway? Her therapist does not have a good handle on who she is. She can't casually date because she doesn't have it in her to not fall into bed with the next guy who is nice to her. She has lousy boundaries & is so desperate to be loved she takes crumbs (not that you are offering crumbs but the speed at which she progressed with you is ridiculous for somebody who claims to only want a buddy.)


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## 342693 (Mar 2, 2020)

She’s putting you in the “friend zone” so she can keep her options open. If someone better came along, you would be out of the picture completely. 

Dont’t be a Plan B.


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

*Deidre* said:


> She’s confused but gave you a key to her apartment? I think we’re seeing what may go wrong in her relationships - she has poor boundaries and goes too fast before really getting to know someone. You probably are a great guy but it’s way too soon (three weeks?) and unnecessary to give you a key to her apartment.
> 
> I would back away - and pursue women who are ready to date at a more normal pace.
> 
> Say hey and be kind but this all sounds like too much to deal with this early on.


I agree with this all of this. I have a hard time with the fact that you guys have known each other for only 3 weeks, and it sounds like you've covered A LOT of ground, especially for someone who's not interested in getting into a relationship.

What I would do is exactly what Deidre said: pull back to a normal friendship level, and continue to see one another, but maybe on a more normal basis for a friendship. Do you see all of your other close friends everyday? Maybe use that as your gauge here too. I would also start seeing other women if I were you, maybe join a meetup group to meet women who have similar interests. Keep yourself busy. You and your neighbour have gotten too close too fast, and while it probably feels awesome, she's not interested in you as anything more than a friend, and probably never will be. Also, give her key back!


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

LonelyHiker said:


> Looking for any advice from men or women on this; thanks.


Okay. The two of you are both emotionally unskilled and very lacking in boundaries. Comments below. 



> I'm a divorced 44 y/o male, was married for 20 years; been divorced for about 1.5 years


I'd be curious to know how your marriage ended. And her marriage and recent relationship. 



> We instantly connected but from the very beginning, she was adamant that she only wanted to be friends because she was not ready for anything else.
> ...We flirt all the time


Right. Just friends, but flirting and having sex. This is what I mean by unboundaried. 



> I respected her boundaries when she has asked


That's a nonsense statement. You respect someone's boundaries. Not just "when they ask". But she has none.



> So here's the problem, her therapist told her that she needs to date, not to get serious, but just to get out and figure out what she wants in life and from men in general. He said she can just go out and talk to men, it doesn't have to be physical.


I'm not keen on "therapists" who tell people what to do. 



> Our daughters have already had sleepovers


Jeepers. That's worse than having her key. 



> I told her I wouldn't be good person if I ended our friendship over this


How do you figure that out? Why would that not be a good person?



> but I am heart broken
> I don't know how to disconnect my heart from her and still remain friends.


Okay. So this is where boundaries come from. You made a clear statement there. So you say to her, in effect, *"my boundary is that I can't be just friends with you, because it breaks my heart."*

That's called "telling the truth" and "setting a boundary". 
Or, tell me if I misunderstood you. 
At the moment, you are trying to figure out how to conceal your goal from her. She isn't going to be fooled. She knows what you want. 

My advice is put your cards on the table and tell her the truth. Stop trying to be manipulative. 

If I understood you right, she's afraid to be in a relationship because relationships fail, and that hurts. That's going to apply with any other man too. Whoever this other person is that she's dating, she's going to do the same to them: keep them at arm's length for safety. 



D0nnivain said:


> On some level she is dating you. She's putting a different label on it --friends. But you aren't friends. You are lovers. She's not being truthful to herself, to you or even to her therapist. That is a serious red flag because it's a good indicator about why she makes such poor choices about men.
> 
> ...Her therapist does not have a good handle on who she is.


Her therapist doesn't come out of this well either.


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## HarryBosch (6 mo ago)

LonelyHiker said:


> I don't think I have been playing games, I was upfront about how I felt; she was upfront about only being friends.


I read your story.. when I got through half of it I had to look back at how old you two are, because couples in their twenties play games like this... at Forty, life is too short.


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## LonelyHiker (Dec 15, 2020)

LisaDiane said:


> I think part of what Andy means is that you are not giving this woman (or any women) the impression that you are a confident man who has many other options with women, because you are spending all your time with her keeping you in the "friend zone", and you are allowing her to control YOUR romantic life and feelings, and you aren't even in a dating relationship with her. So SHE has all the power with you, and you are letting her push you around, which makes you seem like a girlfriend to her, not a potential dating partner.
> 
> I would say your boundaries should be that AT MOST you treat her like a guy-friend, and YOU should start dating too, and stop hoping this woman will change her mind about you. She is definitely NOT a good partner for you (or anyone), based on how she has been acting. She sounds immature and insecure and self-centered, and after everything you've gone through, you need a woman who knows what she wants and isn't going to play games.
> 
> It's time for you to find a HEALTHY relationship that will help you learn more about yourself and help you grow and be happy. You aren't going to find that with this woman.


I think you might be right LD. Not sure if you remember me from over a year ago on this site; I had to stop posting after my ex father in-law threatened my life with a knife (with my ex's knowledge - LONG story).


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## LonelyHiker (Dec 15, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> I could only read a few sentences here and there.
> 
> Look up the term “beta orbiter.” Your picture will be beside the definition.


OS > I believe that is what I have become, but I told her my intentions from the beginning, I think she was feeling it out and then decided she just wanted to be friends.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

SCDad01 said:


> She’s putting you in the “friend zone” so she can keep her options open. If someone better came along, you would be out of the picture completely.


Maybe. But "better" only in her eyes. Better at not asking for anything from her. Not really better.


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## LonelyHiker (Dec 15, 2020)

D0nnivain said:


> On some level she is dating you. She's putting a different label on it --friends. But you aren't friends. You are lovers. She's not being truthful to herself, to you or even to her therapist. That is a serious red flag because it's a good indicator about why she makes such poor choices about men.
> 
> You already crossed the big boundaries -- sex, being there daily & emotional intimacy so at this point since you can't very well force her to use the correct words to truthfully describe what is going on here -- you two are in a relationship -- I have no idea what boundaries are left. I do know that somebody is going to get hurt so you best guard your heart & stop putting all your eggs in here basket.
> 
> ...


Agree with most of what you said > that's why I'm trying to figure out what a healthy boundary should be going forward. I think she was "dating" without actually saying we were dating because it scared her. Maybe she got too close herself and realized she couldn't do more > idk. Either way, your right, I'm the one who's going to get hurt.

I am a good guy, she needed a friend to help her get thru the pain of her last break-up. Did I get used? (maybe); but she was clear, there was no intent for anything further than just friends, we had that talk about a dozen times. But then she asked me for sex and she was the one who asked me to put her to bed (I'm half to blame because I offered). We have both been emotionally vulnerable with each other and I was clear about my intentions.

so it looks like we both need work on proper boundaries, and that's why I'm here. I'll be seeing my therapist tomorrow to discuss this whole situation as well.


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## 342693 (Mar 2, 2020)

Laurentium said:


> Maybe. But "better" only in her eyes. Better at not asking for anything from her. Not really better.


Excellent point and clarification. OP didn’t mean better than you…just someone she thought was better.


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## LonelyHiker (Dec 15, 2020)

SCDad01 said:


> She’s putting you in the “friend zone” so she can keep her options open. If someone better came along, you would be out of the picture completely.
> 
> Dont’t be a Plan B.


Agreed. It sucks that nice guys always get put there, but its probably our fault for not having proper boundaries to begin with


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## LonelyHiker (Dec 15, 2020)

Ursula said:


> I agree with this all of this. I have a hard time with the fact that you guys have known each other for only 3 weeks, and it sounds like you've covered A LOT of ground, especially for someone who's not interested in getting into a relationship.
> 
> What I would do is exactly what Deidre said: pull back to a normal friendship level, and continue to see one another, but maybe on a more normal basis for a friendship. Do you see all of your other close friends everyday? Maybe use that as your gauge here too. I would also start seeing other women if I were you, maybe join a meetup group to meet women who have similar interests. Keep yourself busy. You and your neighbour have gotten too close too fast, and while it probably feels awesome, she's not interested in you as anything more than a friend, and probably never will be. Also, give her key back!


How do you continue to be around someone that you have feelings for, even if it is at a reduced amount/time spent together?


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

I'd suggest you seriously consider what @Laurentium has posted. Sounds like he's hit the nail on the head. 

And, sorry, but whether you like it or not, some of this stuff you've reported IS game playing. JMO


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Did you get used? Yes, I think you did. Now you have to fix that before it gets even worse. Start by reducing the time you spend with her. And find someone else to date.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

LonelyHiker said:


> I think you might be right LD. Not sure if you remember me from over a year ago on this site; I had to stop posting after my ex father in-law threatened my life with a knife (with my ex's knowledge - LONG story).


Actually, I DO remember you well...I am happy to see an update from you, I've been wondering how you were doing! 
I am glad you are out of that situation and your marriage and are moving on! 

Now, you need to find a HEALTHY woman and relationship!!!


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## LonelyHiker (Dec 15, 2020)

Laurentium said:


> Okay. The two of you are both emotionally unskilled and very lacking in boundaries. Comments below.
> 
> Agreed, that's why I came here to solicit advice
> 
> ...


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## LonelyHiker (Dec 15, 2020)

SCDad01 said:


> Excellent point and clarification. OP didn’t mean better than you…just someone she thought was better.


No worries, never took it that way.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

> I told her my intentions, not trying to be manipulative.


I think you may be mistaken about that.



> My mistake was treating her like I was courting her...


and indeed, you _were_ courting her



> ...when she clearly stated up front that she was not ready and _only wanted to be friends_.


because you knew very well that she, also, was not being honest in saying that.

You need to stop believing the words she says, and read instead her actions.


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## Beach123 (Dec 6, 2017)

As long as YOU adjust your expectations - the friendship can go on.

she doesn’t intend to date you - that is clear.

so be her friend and date someone who really really IS interested in you long term.


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## LonelyHiker (Dec 15, 2020)

Laurentium said:


> I think you may be mistaken about that.
> 
> 
> and indeed, you _were_ courting her
> ...


Guilty on all charges.. except for maybe #1. If I tell someone I have feelings for them, and then follow that up with actions like compliments, doing nice things for them ect; that reinforce my statement of "I have feelings for you"... I would not say that's manipulative... I would say that's me showing her how I treat someone that I am interested in... which all occurred probably because of point #3. 

But I'm not going to die on that sword... I can see your point as well.


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## LonelyHiker (Dec 15, 2020)

Beach123 said:


> As long as YOU adjust your expectations - the friendship can go on.
> 
> she doesn’t intend to date you - that is clear.
> 
> so be her friend and date someone who really really IS interested in you long term.


Agreed; has anyone on here had success with remaining friends with someone that they had feelings for.. It would be nice if there was an "off" button on my heart or maybe a pill we could take 

My problem is that I really do enjoy being around her; it's what attracts me to her, we laugh, we have fun, we pick on each other..


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

I think it will be very difficult to remain close friends if you have feelings and she doesn’t.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

LonelyHiker said:


> Agreed; has anyone on here had success with remaining friends with someone that they had feelings for.. It would be nice if there was an "off" button on my heart or maybe a pill we could take
> 
> My problem is that I really do enjoy being around her; it's what attracts me to her, we laugh, we have fun, we pick on each other..


Those things that attract you to her are all the very top layer of what she allows you to see - her MASK. That's not the real "her" at all. There are alot more troubling things going on below that surface projection that are red flags, I think.

Even IF she could be a good partner for someone at some point, she's not there right now.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

I'll take "What is a **** Tease" for $800, Alex.


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## LonelyHiker (Dec 15, 2020)

Laurentium said:


> I think you may be mistaken about that.
> 
> 
> and indeed, you _were_ courting her
> ...


L > on your last statement, that has been the incredibly frustrating part. we hang out, she comes close, puts her leg against mine (not sexually), then the next day says "we can only be friends".. then later that day flirts with me sexually. So its been very hard to read her actions because they have changed. If she was cold and distant from the beginning, this would have been easier. its exactly like you said, she was not being truthful about her intentions, but maybe now that has changed and she has decided that we can only be friends?

Either way, I do appreciate all of the advice on here, this is a great community.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Do you need her as a friend? I think it would be pretty hard to be pals with someone I wanted to have sex with. Especially if they keep touching me. Friends don’t intentionally touch you under the table.


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## LonelyHiker (Dec 15, 2020)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> I'll take "What is a **** Tease" for $800, Alex.


I'm literally LOL at this.. and at the same time sad.. because its probably true.


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## LonelyHiker (Dec 15, 2020)

LisaDiane said:


> Those things that attract you to her are all the very top layer of what she allows you to see - her MASK. That's not the real "her" at all. There are alot more troubling things going on below that surface projection that are red flags, I think.
> 
> Even IF she could be a good partner for someone at some point, she's not there right now.


Agreed


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## LonelyHiker (Dec 15, 2020)

ccpowerslave said:


> Do you need her as a friend? I think it would be pretty hard to be pals with someone I wanted to have sex with. Especially if they keep touching me. Friends don’t intentionally touch you under the table.


I will say she has been there for me as much as I have been there for her; so it has been very nice having her as a friend even though I have wanted more. I don't believe going forward she'll be touching me ect as she has been more adamant about the friend boundary the past two days (but who knows if she'll maintain that)?


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

She’s playing with you so she can keep you around. She knows sexual tension will do that.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

A woman who tells you she only wants to be friends——/ you’re not good enough for her to show you to her buddies as her boyfriend. You’re just an orbiter. Geez, give the key back and get a real gf. Not hard to find. There’s bazillions of them.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

Only got through half way. 

This is an unfortunate lesson I learned when I was 20 years old. Sometimes it hits men later on in life. It's OK. We all make this mistake at some point in our lives. God knows I've made so many bone headed mistakes it's a wonder how I put my shoes on in the morning. 

Anyways. 

She is using you. You have been friend zoned. She has tricked you into giving your commitment to her while she offers nothing in return. Tell her if she wants a friend to go find other women. You are looking to have a romantic relationship with a woman.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

I thought exactly what @She'sStillGotIt said. Actually, my exact thought was, "pr!ck tease." Yep, that's what you've got here. And I'm telling you this as a woman. She gets her ego kibbles from giving you just enough to keep you around. She knows you have feelings for her. Again, ego kibbles. Nothing more.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

She gave him a couple tastes to set the hook deep.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

LonelyHiker said:


> I'm a divorced 44 y/o male, was married for 20 years; been divorced for about 1.5 years; 3 weeks ago I met my female neighbor at my apartment complex. She is also divorced (20 year relationship), but just recently got out of a 1 year relationship that ended poorly and left her feeling pretty hurt. We instantly connected but from the very beginning, she was adamant that she only wanted to be friends because she was not ready for anything else.
> We connected so well that we have literally spent every day together in some capacity (either walking together or staying up late at her place talking for hours to going shopping together with her children). We flirt all the time and text each other daily if we are not around each other. She told me she was scared to go any further than friends because she has been so hurt from men in her past (this last relationship was her 2nd meaningful relationship since her divorce). Unfortunately, we both slipped up and we have been intimate together a few times; usually by her asking. She said that I am the first person she has ever had sex without outside of a committed relationship. She said that I just made her comfortable and I'm trustworthy. She recently said that we can't do that anymore because it makes her confused and she thinks its making me more attached.
> She does like me, but has said that my friendship is more important to her and she doesn't want to lose that; its even made her cry a few times.
> I have told her how I feel about her and that I want to take it to the next step (dating). Her love language is quality time so I know I have been filling that hole in her life. On bad nights, she has even asked me to tuck her into bed (non- sexually) and I have, rubbing her hair and just comforting her. She says I am a good man. I walk her dog when she's at work (if I'm home); she has given me the key to her apartment ect. She said she has shared things with me that she has never shared with anyone else.
> ...


You can't really set boundaries without talking seriously to her.

Tell he you are unsure of the relationship and that at sometimes you feel it is a terrible game of sexual tease and denial. That you really, really enjoy her company, the company of her children and you value your friendship. Ask her what kind of relationship she really wants. Tell her what kind of relationship you want.

If what you want is Friends with Benefits, explain that 1.5 years is too soon after your divorce for you to commit to an exclusive relationship, if that is true. Tell her that you married in your early 20's and have had only one real sexual partner and you need to time to figure out what you want in a woman.

If you want something more serious tell her and discuss when or how you might know it may be time for something else. Ask her what she wants and what would be the signs she might want more?

Good luck. You still might be in the rebound relationship phase.


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## sideways (Apr 12, 2016)

All of this after three weeks??

I mean how good of friends can you be after only three weeks?

This woman doesn't want to get hurt? Well anyone she goes out with could hurt her. Even a friend could hurt her.

Given you've already been intimate with her, and you have feelings for her, to answer your question, no this isn't going to play out well for you.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

Her brain is trying to remain in control of her situation, despite having low self-control over her body. Take her at her word, respect her brain, and disregard her mixed signals.

Treat her neutrally, as you would a guy friend, or a married woman. Do friendship things, let your kids hang out, but don't do favours (dog walking) unless you get reciprocity from her in some form. And that's it. Don't do date stuff - no dinners out, no activities, no movies.

NO MORE PHYSICAL CONTACT. EVER. No hugs, no tucking her in, no touching her hair. If she makes contact with you, back away. Remove yourself from the situation, if need be. Explain that you consider that sort of thing to be more than just friendship, and you're not going to do it.

You've demonstrated to her what you're like to date, and she told you she didn't want it, so stop that sort of behaviour altogether. And then go date other women. Tell her about it to the same extent as she tells you about her dates. If she's trying to make you jealous, don't fall for it. And you're not trying to make her jealous either, you're just telling a friend about your life.

But don't just hover around her, keeping your hopes up, letting her use you, doing her endless favours in the hopes she'll change her mind. Be strong, be firm, move on.


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## AlwaysImproving (5 mo ago)

LonelyHiker said:


> Looking for any advice from men or women on this; thanks.


Friends, dating, etc. I don't think she knows what these words actually mean and the definitions seem to shift. As my cousin Sal used to say, it's her actions that count more than her words.

You've been frozen out, man. I think you already know what you need to do. You said you don't want to just be friends. If she doesn't accept your terms, then you only have one choice for your own comfort. If she says no, her feelings don't count much in the equation when it comes to your boundaries.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

LonelyHiker said:


> OS > I believe that is what I have become, but I told her my intentions from the beginning, I think she was feeling it out and then decided she just wanted to be friends.


Stating your intentions is fine. The purpose for doing so it to put it out there and so if the other person wants to enter into your frame and your game plan or not. 

She has responded to such, so you have your answer and it is the friendzone. 

If you want a full service relationship, she ain’t it. 

So you can either spin your wheels getting nowhere as her beta orbiter doing errands and favors for her hoping she will get down with you (which won’t happen because chicks do not desire beta orbiters) 

Or you can move on and get back on the market and start dating other women.


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

LonelyHiker said:


> Agreed. It sucks that nice guys always get put there, but its probably our fault for not having proper boundaries to begin with


Not nice guys, passive guys.

Stop being passive and needy. You’re not interested in being platonic friends with her, so don’t be. Don’t be the aforementioned beta orbiter, that’s pathetic.

What others have been getting at is that you need to have enough self-respect and confidence to pursue what you want, and to refuse to accept relationship dynamics that you don’t want.

Just don’t be her eunuch platonic male friend. Just tell her you’re not interested in that, that you see her as a woman who you are attracted to. You like her but you’re not interested in being friends. So she can either date you (casually) or not, but being platonic friends doesn’t work for you.

it’s really that simple..


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

LATERILUS79 said:


> She is using you. You have been friend zoned. She has tricked you into giving your commitment to her while she offers nothing in return. Tell her if she wants a friend to go find other women. You are looking to have a romantic relationship with a woman.


^^. Again for effect.


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## Teacherwifemom (5 mo ago)

SCDad01 said:


> She’s putting you in the “friend zone” so she can keep her options open. If someone better came along, you would be out of the picture completely.
> 
> Dont’t be a Plan B.


That phrase literally came to my mind 1 second before I read your response. I’d also add, no real relationship, even a friendship, develops fully in 3 weeks. That takes so much more time. You sound like a genuinely nice guy. Find someone who says to themselves, “This guy is awesome! No way I’m doing anything to mess this up.” Early relationships should be filled with excitement and hope and anticipation. Not writing to TAM  She may be genuine in her confusion, but don’t let yourself be second string. Furthermore, I’m a huge advocate for kids, and giving you a key after 3 weeks (even to dog walk) when she has a child in the house is nothing short of completely irresponsible. I’m sure you’re a safe guy, but there’s no way for her to know that after 3 weeks. And really, If she’s knocking boots with you well within 3 weeks, imagine what she’s doing with a guy she dates and is attracted too. She sounds like a hot mess who needs to focus on her kiddo and getting her head straight. A good therapist would tell her the same. I know you like her, but you don’t KNOW her, and she’s totally making you a friend with benefits, except her benefits continue and yours have been cut off. Good luck, and keep us posted.


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## Slow Hand (Oct 4, 2015)

ccpowerslave said:


> Do you need her as a friend? I think it would be pretty hard to be pals with someone I wanted to have sex with. Especially if they keep touching me. Friends don’t intentionally touch you under the table.


Or like Camilla sang in Senorita! Friends don’t know the way you taste 👅 

“🎤There's just some things that never change
You say we're just friends
But friends don't know the way you taste, la-la-la🎶”


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

LonelyHiker said:


> She has said that her therapist has been working with her on setting proper boundaries, she's just a very trusting person, and I am a nice guy. She gave me the key so I could take her dog out when she was at work.. it wasn't a "here's a key to my place since were dating type thing".. again, she considers me a very good friend which I have been.


You are recently divorced. You have a romantic attraction to her. You being just friends as she dates other men may not be healthy for you right now. Be friendly but move on, for your owns sake. Nothing good will come of this.


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## Jimi007 (6 mo ago)

Unfortunately....you are like in the honey moon phase...You really dig this girl , butterflies in your stomach, can't wait to see her...She's dating an old Co worker probably telling him similar stuff that she told you. What you need is for someone to slap you back into Fu#king reality . She probably already has some sexual history with him. Just like Marc says put down the hopium pipe. Your just hurting yourself with jealousy... It will consume you. What happens when she brings this guy home and you see them ? He stays all nite ...You will lay in your bed....Your thoughts will eat you up inside..I've been in your shoes and it sucks..Start dating someone else ( or just tell her you are ) look for her reaction , don't put yourself thru this. It will drive you insane. Telling you this from personal experience


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## D0nnivain (Mar 13, 2021)

LonelyHiker said:


> I will say she has been there for me as much as I have been there for her; so it has been very nice having her as a friend even though I have wanted more. I don't believe going forward she'll be touching me ect as she has been more adamant about the friend boundary the past two days (but who knows if she'll maintain that)?


I call BS. It's been about 21 days. How much can she actually have "been there" for you? Get real. 

She will lure you back into her bed to scratch an itch. Mark my words. You are a convenient easily manipulated sap who she knows she has wrapped around her finger. Watch out or you are going to be babysitting her kids while she's out with other men or letting yourself into her apartment with that key to water her plants while she's in another guy's bed.


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## Not (Jun 12, 2017)

Haven't read any of the responses yet.

What this all boils down to in my mind is this....and it doesn't matter what her reasons are or her issues or her justifications.....she's now dating someone else. Are you OK with that? You can't be and that is your new starting point. You decide where this goes from here, not her.


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

LonelyHiker said:


> How do you continue to be around someone that you have feelings for, even if it is at a reduced amount/time spent together?


I've done this in the past because I had really low self-esteem and self-worth, and I kept hoping that something would change to make the other person suddenly have feelings for me too. It never happened. What did happen though is that I worked on myself, grew my self-esteem and self-worth, and found someone who saw me for who I am, and who accepted and respected me. I personally could no longer be around someone that I had feelings for and who didn't return those feelings. So, if I were you, I would just put a full stop to it. Hard I know because you're neighbours, but it will be worth it in the end, for both of you.


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

LonelyHiker said:


> L > on your last statement, that has been the incredibly frustrating part. we hang out, she comes close, puts her leg against mine (not sexually), then the next day says "we can only be friends".. then later that day flirts with me sexually. So its been very hard to read her actions because they have changed. If she was cold and distant from the beginning, this would have been easier. its exactly like you said, she was not being truthful about her intentions, but maybe now that has changed and she has decided that we can only be friends?
> 
> Either way, I do appreciate all of the advice on here, this is a great community.


So, if she tries to come close to you, hug you, put a leg against yours, flirts generally, flirts sexually, then what you need to tell her is something along the lines of: (Name), you've said that we can only be friends, and this behaviour is not something that friends take part in. Please keep your distance/stop flirting/stop saying sexual things.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

I only got part way through that. First of all you guys skipped dating and after you've been sleeping together and have each other's apartment key is not the time to start thinking you have to start officially dating in my opinion. You've already gone beyond that.

So everything has gone backwards so far. She probably is confused and not ready for another relationship but she is leaning on you which isn't necessarily healthy for her and not really fair to you. 

She's not ready to commit to a relationship and it's possible that when she does it won't be you. This seems to be something that's just easy for her to go along with but that she's not enthusiastic about so I would certainly keep that in mind. 

In my opinion if someone keeps telling you in so many words that they are not planning on keeping you, if a commitment is what you want and a committed relationship, then you're the one who should walk away.


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## Willnotbill (May 13, 2021)

If it were me I would stop paying attention to the lady and move on. In my opinion men and women can't be best friends or even good friends without sex and feelings becoming involved. I would also tell her this and why I will not be tucking her in or even talking with her anymore unless she would like to explore and exclusive relationship.


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## David60525 (Oct 5, 2021)

LonelyHiker said:


> I'm a divorced 44 y/o male, was married for 20 years; been divorced for about 1.5 years; 3 weeks ago I met my female neighbor at my apartment complex. She is also divorced (20 year relationship), but just recently got out of a 1 year relationship that ended poorly and left her feeling pretty hurt. We instantly connected but from the very beginning, she was adamant that she only wanted to be friends because she was not ready for anything else.
> We connected so well that we have literally spent every day together in some capacity (either walking together or staying up late at her place talking for hours to going shopping together with her children). We flirt all the time and text each other daily if we are not around each other. She told me she was scared to go any further than friends because she has been so hurt from men in her past (this last relationship was her 2nd meaningful relationship since her divorce). Unfortunately, we both slipped up and we have been intimate together a few times; usually by her asking. She said that I am the first person she has ever had sex without outside of a committed relationship. She said that I just made her comfortable and I'm trustworthy. She recently said that we can't do that anymore because it makes her confused and she thinks its making me more attached.
> She does like me, but has said that my friendship is more important to her and she doesn't want to lose that; its even made her cry a few times.
> I have told her how I feel about her and that I want to take it to the next step (dating). Her love language is quality time so I know I have been filling that hole in her life. On bad nights, she has even asked me to tuck her into bed (non- sexually) and I have, rubbing her hair and just comforting her. She says I am a good man. I walk her dog when she's at work (if I'm home); she has given me the key to her apartment ect. She said she has shared things with me that she has never shared with anyone else.
> ...


Run go Mgtow


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## fluffycoco (May 29, 2021)

Any updates, OP?


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## BoSlander (6 mo ago)

Congrats, you're officially been made to "friend with benefits".


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## LonelyHiker (Dec 15, 2020)

Updates: So, per my therapist's suggestion, I had a nice long discussion with her; so the truth came out; she does like me, a lot. She is not going out on any other dates anymore with anyone else. However, she is still not ready to date; but I believe she just doesn't want to use the word "dating" because everything we are doing would be considered "dating" or in a relationship. We had dinner together the other night and she said she missed me and was wanting me to get home from work so we could be together. We have plans to go to her friends house this weekend for a bbq/bonfire (a date lol), and are looking at doing other things together. We text each other all day long and as soon as she gets home, she asks me to come over. So, for now, I'm ok with the boundaries we have; and I'm ok with her not using the word "dating". Now, I'll give it some more time and we'll see if she changes her mind ect, but each day she is letting me into her heart a little more.


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## D0nnivain (Mar 13, 2021)

Then fine. Continue doing what you are doing but avoid the labels because they scare her. Let her actions be your guides. See where you are at the holidays but go emotionally slowly; don't push, stop talking about it & whatever you do don't say words like "love" or "girlfriend"


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

LonelyHiker said:


> Updates: So, per my therapist's suggestion, I had a nice long discussion with her; so the truth came out; she does like me, a lot. She is not going out on any other dates anymore with anyone else. However, she is still not ready to date; but I believe she just doesn't want to use the word "dating" because everything we are doing would be considered "dating" or in a relationship. We had dinner together the other night and she said she missed me and was wanting me to get home from work so we could be together. We have plans to go to her friends house this weekend for a bbq/bonfire (a date lol), and are looking at doing other things together. We text each other all day long and as soon as she gets home, she asks me to come over. So, for now, I'm ok with the boundaries we have; and I'm ok with her not using the word "dating". Now, I'll give it some more time and we'll see if she changes her mind ect, but each day she is letting me into her heart a little more.


She can call it whatever she wants. What she does means infinitely more than what she says.
Are you having sex? If not, you’re just providing comfort and service to her and receiving nothing in return, other than hope that maybe someday she’ll see fit to engage with you in a man/woman relationship again. Bad equation.


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

LonelyHiker said:


> Updates: So, per my therapist's suggestion, I had a nice long discussion with her; so the truth came out; she does like me, a lot. She is not going out on any other dates anymore with anyone else. However, she is still not ready to date; but I believe she just doesn't want to use the word "dating" because everything we are doing would be considered "dating" or in a relationship. We had dinner together the other night and she said she missed me and was wanting me to get home from work so we could be together. We have plans to go to her friends house this weekend for a bbq/bonfire (a date lol), and are looking at doing other things together. We text each other all day long and as soon as she gets home, she asks me to come over. So, for now, I'm ok with the boundaries we have; and I'm ok with her not using the word "dating". Now, I'll give it some more time and we'll see if she changes her mind ect, but each day she is letting me into her heart a little more.


Not that necessarily this will be your case, but if anything life has teach me as a male is that when a woman that might "like" you is putting the brakes in front of you is because you are not "it" you're just the "right now" emotional, safe crutch that she needs in order for her to feel safe while she recharges her emotional well being. The thing is for women doing this with a guy, the poor sucker of a dude in the end loses, when she's ready to be emotionally vulnerable again, because normally she will do it with somebody else while you're left in the dust sucking your thumb. 

This is a high risk that you need to have in your head at all times while you're in "hopium" with her.


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## Jimi007 (6 mo ago)

Hopium....is real


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

If “not dating” includes frequent wild sex then maybe…


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## LonelyHiker (Dec 15, 2020)

Update: We are dating; we'll be kayaking and catching a sunset this weekend together... and yes, wild sex.... very, very wild sex lol.


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

LonelyHiker said:


> Update: We are dating; we'll be kayaking and catching a sunset this weekend together... and yes, wild sex.... very, very wild sex lol.


Hope it goes well for you...in the long run.


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## LonelyHiker (Dec 15, 2020)

Rob_1 said:


> Hope it goes well for you...in the long run.


I know there is risk, but we gain nothing if we are afraid to take risks. So, either I'll be back on here in a few weeks/months asking how to get over rejection.. or maybe it will be a great update on how we are moving forward


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

LonelyHiker said:


> Update: We are dating; we'll be kayaking and catching a sunset this weekend together... and yes, wild sex.... very, very wild sex lol.





LonelyHiker said:


> I know there is risk, but we gain nothing if we are afraid to take risks. So, either I'll be back on here in a few weeks/months asking how to get over rejection.. or maybe it will be a great update on how we are moving forward


What can I say actions speak louder than words.

You obviously enjoy the dating and the sex. She has been very clear about you not being the right person for her at this point in her life and you seem to be fine with that.

If I were you, I would talk to your therapist about how you can protect yourself from having her break your heart at some point in the future. You are deluding yourself that you are in a loving relationship with a woman that desires you and will treat you well. You are not. Based on what she has told you, you will get dumped and you will be hurt. 

I wish you luck. You are an adult. You understand the situation and you will have to deal with the consequences of your actions.


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## fluffycoco (May 29, 2021)

LonelyHiker said:


> Update: We are dating; we'll be kayaking and catching a sunset this weekend together... and yes, wild sex.... very, very wild sex lol.


Are you showing off to us? How wild? 😏


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## Coachingwithdonald (Apr 4, 2021)

LonelyHiker said:


> I'm a divorced 44 y/o male, was married for 20 years; been divorced for about 1.5 years; 3 weeks ago I met my female neighbor at my apartment complex. She is also divorced (20 year relationship), but just recently got out of a 1 year relationship that ended poorly and left her feeling pretty hurt. We instantly connected but from the very beginning, she was adamant that she only wanted to be friends because she was not ready for anything else.
> We connected so well that we have literally spent every day together in some capacity (either walking together or staying up late at her place talking for hours to going shopping together with her children). We flirt all the time and text each other daily if we are not around each other. She told me she was scared to go any further than friends because she has been so hurt from men in her past (this last relationship was her 2nd meaningful relationship since her divorce). Unfortunately, we both slipped up and we have been intimate together a few times; usually by her asking. She said that I am the first person she has ever had sex without outside of a committed relationship. She said that I just made her comfortable and I'm trustworthy. She recently said that we can't do that anymore because it makes her confused and she thinks its making me more attached.
> She does like me, but has said that my friendship is more important to her and she doesn't want to lose that; its even made her cry a few times.
> I have told her how I feel about her and that I want to take it to the next step (dating). Her love language is quality time so I know I have been filling that hole in her life. On bad nights, she has even asked me to tuck her into bed (non- sexually) and I have, rubbing her hair and just comforting her. She says I am a good man. I walk her dog when she's at work (if I'm home); she has given me the key to her apartment ect. She said she has shared things with me that she has never shared with anyone else.
> ...


My advice is find both use a ultimate want if both want say dating then is find if use are a good fit 
there 6 human needs that every person has these being being certainty that come form of comfort, safety, predictability, secured feeling stable, grounded, 2nd uncertainty form surprise, variety 3rd 
Significants in form of feeling special, wanted, needed, feeling important 4th being feeling love/
Connect most will settle for connection because love is too scary 5th & 6th need being Growth 
& contribution every person 2 primary human needs that determines direction of there lives
If these do that match the couple will be fighting/ arguing constantly and not know why I had co-worker that was divorced I foundI out soon why he got an altercation with another co-worker he followed her into cooler just to feel special, right his need to feel drove his ex-wife and him apart 
this occurrence was 1 of many most married couples never find emotional needs out no wander 
Since 1983; 2/3 of marriages end in divorce need help go to facebook book an appointment


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## LonelyHiker (Dec 15, 2020)

So, new updates:

We (me and her) are having an in depth discussion tonight on what is or is not next between us. At this point in her life, she does not know if she will ever want to pursue marriage or anything leading to that with anyone. She made a comment last night that she does not see me as her soul mate. So the discussion tonight is this: Does she truly feel that there would be NO future possible with me if she ever decided she wanted to get serious or not; or did she poorly word her feelings that she just doesn't feel like she will ever want to marry anyone again.

Again, her other words (and actions) lead me to believe she is conflicted in this area. She has said "I wonder if I would have been head over heals in love with you if we had met at a different time"; and also a different time when I asked her what she was thinking she replied "what it would be like to be married to you".

For me, I just want to have the opportunity to find out if she would ever be the right one for me, which requires more dating (exclusively), possibly moving into GF/BF territory to see if she is the right one. However, if she feels that I would never fit that role for her, then I'm not going to waste my time since there is no possible future between us other than FWB.

I won't be in a FWB situation because I feel its a waste of everyone's time at this stage in life unless that's all either party wants, and since I already have feelings for her, it would not work for me.

Question for the group; did anyone else ever feel that they never wanted to risk getting hurt by falling in love again so they just stayed in the friend zone with anyone they met.... or was that feeling just momentary after a break-up/divorce and it changed over time?

Question for the women specifically: if you truly felt that someone was not your soulmate/possibly life partner; would you still have said or thought the things she did above? Are those just normal thoughts that can pass thru any woman's mind? Just curious.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

How many different ways does she need to tell you she isn’t into you like you are into her? You are trying to hope and talk her into feeling like you do about her.

THIS IS A DEAD END AND YOU HAVE ALREADY BEEN TOLD YOU ARE THE ONE THAT WILL GET HURT.

We can’t make it any more clear than we have. At this point you have to accept that you are the problem…. Not her.


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## Jimi007 (6 mo ago)

Mr.Married said:


> How many different ways does she need to tell you she isn’t into you like you are into her? You are trying to hope and talk her into feeling like you do about her.
> 
> THIS IS A DEAD END AND YOU HAVE ALREADY BEEN TOLD YOU ARE THE ONE THAT WILL GET HURT.
> 
> We can’t make it any more clear than we have. At this point you have to accept that you are the problem…. Not her.


THIS...TRUTH....Please read the above several times. Over and over until you get it


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## BoSlander (6 mo ago)

Only way around the BS is by going out with another woman. That’ll trigger her jealousy (interest) immediately and you’ll go from a dull to marriage material in no time.

I know, it’s pretty f-cked up that you have to resort to this type of shenanigans but… when in Rome, you have to do what the Romans do.


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