# Why Do You Oppose Porn Use?



## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

What are your issues with porn? Is it your man lusting after another woman’s image? Would you provide him with scantily clad pictures of yourself?

What if he uses a catalog underwear section - is that cheating?

Is your objection religious in nature (ie, committing adultery in his heart)?

Is it okay if he masturbates without using porn? What if he’s thinking of another woman while doing it?


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Honestly, I have mixed feelings. The answer I am supposed to have as a card-carrying member of X church is that it is lust. It is committing adultery in one's heart. All that.

Basically, though, taking religion out of it completely - because most people who defend porn are NOT really all that religious - not really....

1. If porn interferes with your sexual relationship with your partner, it's a problem. This could mean that you'd rather rub one out to Bitsy Boobfest than have sex with your wife. Or because you stumbled on furries with knives, you now expect your wife to cut you while wearing a fox tail and you pout when she won't. Or you now have ED because the tank is constantly empty. Or vouyerism is not enough, so now you want to chat with a cam girl. Yes, in those cases, no normal person will ever convince me those things are not a problem

2. If your spouse is deeply hurt by your porn use. I don't mean she becomes a naggy shrew. I mean she is heartbroken, and you know it. "My rights" or no, if you can continue to do something you know deeply hurts your spouse while stamping your feet like a child.....you are not a good spouse. The end

For the women out there:

If you deny your red-blooded American husband sex, then you should be thankful that looking at Busty Asian Beauties (can you guess the TV reference??) is all he is doing. You don't get to starve him and then complain when he sneaks potato chips into the house

If you read 50 Shades, you don't get to whine about the magazines under the mattress.


----------



## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

I have no problem if the guy I'm with uses porn sparingly. I will only have a problem if he uses it so much it interferes with our sex life. I feel the same way about masturbation. If he uses it to bridge a gap that's fine. If he uses it instead of wanting to be with me, we'll have a big problem as I'll assume he doesn't want me anymore and I'll just go on my way in that case.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

personofinterest said:


> Honestly, I have mixed feelings. The answer I am supposed to have as a card-carrying member of X church is that it is lust. It is committing adultery in one's heart. All that.
> 
> Basically, though, taking religion out of it completely - because most people who defend porn are NOT really all that religious - not really....
> 
> ...


Brilliant. Well balanced. And utterly brilliant.


----------



## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

I have a problem with it for many reasons. Sex should be something you do/experience with your spouse, no one else. There is a problem when people can’t masterbate without porn. Too many men are having trouble getting erections for their significant other, or can’t orgasm with their significant other. There are a lot of negative things When porn is involved in your lifestyle. 

So many men are on this giving up porn/masterbating so much thing and they say it makes sex SO much better. Actually I suggest everyone look into it because there’s a group... I forgot what it’s called but men are so much happier after giving it up.


----------



## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

FWIW, I’m trying to minimize it. If my wife were willing to always be available, I’d definitely try to go without entirely. Masturbation takes longer without it.


----------



## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

One more thing is that many men are bored, or WANT to masterbate so they go to porn to GET horny. And this creates a problem when they want to have sex with their significant other Bc their brain is use to being “entertained” to be turned on. And no women should feel like they have to put in a show just to get their spouse in the mood because that’s what porn essentially is. 

Sex in real life can’t compete with masterbating to porn... or at least not after being with the same person for 30years. Eliminate the porn and you will really start to enjoy sex more.


----------



## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

CraigBesuden said:


> FWIW, I’m trying to minimize it. If my wife were willing to always be available, I’d definitely try to go without entirely. Masturbation takes longer without it.




Who cares. You need to learn to masterbate without it. And no one is going to be available at your becking call that isn’t realistic. 

Wouldn’t you be mad if your wife wanted to have sex with you at a time that wasn’t a good time for you and she went to porn, then was satisfied for a few days Bc of it. That would piss me off so much lol.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Girl_power said:


> Sex in real life can’t compete with masterbating to porn... or at least not after being with the same person for 30years. Eliminate the porn and you will really start to enjoy sex more.


For some of us.


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Girl_power said:


> I have a problem with it for many reasons. Sex should be something you do/experience with your spouse, no one else. There is a problem when people can’t masterbate without porn. Too many men are having trouble getting erections for their significant other, or can’t orgasm with their significant other. There are a lot of negative things When porn is involved in your lifestyle.
> 
> So many men are on this giving up porn/masterbating so much thing and they say it makes sex SO much better. Actually I suggest everyone look into it because there’s a group... I forgot what it’s called but men are so much happier after giving it up.


I definitely understand this. But it really isn't YOUR place (or anyone else's) to make a declarative statement about what all men should do.

I would say if a man cannot get an erection or finish without it, it is definitely a problem.

As far as sex being better, that only works if you wife isn't a cold fish or a shrew who makes you dance for sex. And I'm not talking about a woman having a stomach flu for 24 hours or something. I am talking about those high maintenance women whose list or requirements to have the honor of touching them is ridiculous. And it still only happens once in a blue moon.

Those women don't get to complain that hubby or boyfriend finally gave up and turned to a sure thing.


----------



## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

I never had a problem with porn except that it objectifies women, teaches men to disrespect women, and is not an accurate depiction of sexual relations. Too many guys expect from their woman what they see and hear in the porn videos. Since they don't realize it's just acting, they expect a woman to moan and groan, hoop and holler, and give him the idea that she's enjoying it and he's a major stud just because he's having sex with her. I've seen a lot of guys on this forum and other forums complain that their wife/SO doesn't do that stuff and doesn't enjoy sex, so they wish she would because it would be more enjoyable for them and would make them feel they are pleasing her. They don't realize they are supposed to make a woman feel that way and if she's not doing those things, then she just doesn't enjoy sex and are not making it enjoyable for them because they're not making it enjoyable for her. They just want her to do it as if it's as simple as he enters and she's supposed to start screaming. So, my only complaint with porn is it gives men false expectations and the wrong ideas.

Lots of women feel betrayed by their man turning to porn, but that has nothing to do with them feeling like he's cheating on them. Out of their own false idea of men's desire, they have an expectation that their man will turn to them for his needs. They don't realize his needs and his desire for her are mutually exclusive. And in some cases, she's just regularly and conveniently accessible.

But, I have to say lots of other women are correct in that it is cheating if porn is used just because men like seeing it. That's what makes it a moral (or religious) issue because Christian Bibles teach us we're not supposed to enjoy the wrong doing of others, and participating in pornography is morally wrong. So, if it's used as a tool or means to an end, that's one thing (and still morally wrong, but....), but if it's something that is used for enjoyment and lust is the result of watching it, then I can understand the women who feel it's cheating.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Girl_power said:


> One more thing is that many men are bored, or WANT to masterbate so they go to porn to GET horny. And this creates a problem when they want to have sex with their significant other Bc their brain is use to being “entertained” to be turned on. And no women should feel like they have to put in a show just to get their spouse in the mood because that’s what porn essentially is.
> 
> *Sex in real life can’t compete with masterbating to porn... *or at least not after being with the same person for 30years. Eliminate the porn and you will really start to enjoy sex more.


I would say just the opposite.... that *masturbation with porn can't possibly compete with partner sex*... it's just that many men don't realize this at this point. Porn is just _easier _which gives the _illusion _of better. It may all be part of our instant gratification culture where people expect everything to come fast and easy. Many, especially men, have lost the capacity to fully appreciate and be present in the journey rather than just reach for the destination without wanting to put any effort into it.


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Here's a question:

For those against porn full stop, what if the husband is looking at pictures or video of his own wife? Is that different?


----------



## Talk2Me (Mar 22, 2019)

I've been with my g/f for a little over 2 years now and we have sex nearly every single day. I still look at porn but mostly it's the porn we've made together or pictures of her etc. I honestly never masturbate because I don't need to. I used to when I was married prior because I wasn't in a healthy relationship sexually. Porn can be a good thing. It can give you ideas and if you look at it and watch it together can be exciting. Guys will always look at porn and the more you try to push us away from it things will only get worse. My g/f is fine with me looking at porn but def. has an issue if I were to be talking to some cam girl or something along those lines. If there is actual communication going on then she will prob. kill me.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

personofinterest said:


> Here's a question:
> 
> For those against porn full stop, what if the husband is looking at pictures or video of his own wife? Is that different?


I'm probably not your target for this question, but I'll chime in anyway. I would have loved to have received such from my very conservative and reserved wife. Now that she's older, and a little more self confident, she has said she should have done exactly that when she was young and 'had perky breasts." (although I personally would still be quite happy with a contemporary version as well!)

One of many opportunities lost.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I would say just the opposite.... that *masturbation with porn can't possibly compete with partner sex*...


It sure can in my life.

I can have a much richer sex life in my own head than I can have in reality with my spouse. 

This is not the way I would like it to be, but it is true nonetheless.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Cletus said:


> It sure can in my life.
> 
> I can have a much richer sex life in my own head than I can have in reality with my spouse.
> 
> This is not the way I would like it to be, but it is true nonetheless.


I'm pretty sure I understand what you're saying, both on the physical and mental fronts. Overall, I say what I say based on the fantasy not being real and therefore by definition (at least my definition) an inferior experience, no matter what thoughts I could conjure or how intense the sensations I can create.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Do you see it as a problem if men use porn when they are turned down for sex by their partners, or only if they are using it instead of sex with their partner?



Girl_power said:


> I have a problem with it for many reasons. Sex should be something you do/experience with your spouse, no one else. There is a problem when people can’t masterbate without porn. Too many men are having trouble getting erections for their significant other, or can’t orgasm with their significant other. There are a lot of negative things When porn is involved in your lifestyle.
> 
> So many men are on this giving up porn/masterbating so much thing and they say it makes sex SO much better. Actually I suggest everyone look into it because there’s a group... I forgot what it’s called but men are so much happier after giving it up.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

It depends. I think porn can be better than sex with a selfish partner. 

For some people porn is addictive and becomes better than any partner sex, but often that is not the case.



Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I'm pretty sure I understand what you're saying, both on the physical and mental fronts. Overall, I say what I say based on the fantasy not being real and therefore by definition (at least my definition) an inferior experience, no matter what thoughts I could conjure or how intense the sensations I can create.


----------



## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

Talk2Me said:


> My g/f is fine with me looking at porn but def. has an issue if I were to be talking to some cam girl or something along those lines. If there is actual communication going on then she will prob. kill me.


I'm with her...there is a big difference between watching porn and participating in the porn, even if that participation is remote.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I'm pretty sure I understand what you're saying, both on the physical and mental fronts. Overall, I say what I say based on the fantasy not being real and therefore by definition (at least my definition) an inferior experience, no matter what thoughts I could conjure or how intense the sensations I can create.


I don't think it's a stretch to say that a little porn use has saved my marriage. 

True, the fantasy is not real, but the reality is so tepid that the two can compete. They serve as mutually reinforcing complements. Neither alone would be satisfying.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

notmyjamie said:


> I'm with her...there is a big difference between watching porn and participating in the porn, even if that participation is remote.


Unless the participants in the porn are part of the same couple.

Here's to all the home camera self shot lovers:toast:


----------



## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Unless the participants in the porn are part of the same couple.
> 
> Here's to all the home camera self shot lovers:toast:


I stand corrected. :grin2:


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Cletus said:


> I don't think it's a stretch to say that a little porn use has saved my marriage.
> 
> True, the fantasy is not real, but the reality is so tepid that the two can compete. They serve as mutually reinforcing complements. Neither alone would be satisfying.


I get where you're coming from here and it makes perfectly logical sense. I'm sure this is not an uncommon phenomenon. Ironic that a little porn access helped save your marriage when so many are hard over that it can only destroy a marriage. 

My path evolved a little differently. When I masturbated (even without porn for that matter), every stroke, no matter how purely physically pleasurable it may be, was just another reminder that i was doing this because of the lack of the preferred version. I got to where I couldn't finish... then I got to where I couldn't even start! Masturbation was fine as a part of what I thought was originally a fairly well rounded sex life, but then as things got more sparse, it became intolerable. I'd actually rather live with the physical discomfort than remind myself of the emotional stress.


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

CraigBesuden said:


> What are your issues with porn?


I have watch a ton of porn and gotten into many arguments about it with my spouse. Here is what I have learned:



It is not so much that porn bothers a spouse compared to the notion of the person that watches it is likely to hide it and lie about it. That interferes with trust in a relationship and broken trust creates some serious freaking problems.
Porn can also distort someone's sexuality in that it can be used as an escape from problems. Instead of solving problems it can be easier to just ignore them while soothing yourself with porn/masturbation. That then conditions someone to desire sex when it is otherwise problematic in an actual relationship. 
Porn is also unrealistic in that it is geared for instant gratification. Imagine if porn sites removed the fast forward options on all videos and forced you to watch the actors sitting around and talking about their feelings for about a half hour before any nudity occurred. 

I could go on and on. But if your spouse has issues with porn, be sure and separate that from an otherwise healthy desire for self exploration/gratification. You could and should encourage her to participate indirectly in that by giving you something to think about when you are alone. Desire needs distance in order to thrive. Nothing can drive a person more wild with desire than a spouse that enjoys giving the other person something to enjoy thinking about with anticipation. 

Having said that, you should be able to watch porn if you want. But you just need to be open and honest with your spouse about why you choose to do that and allow questions to be asked and give honest answers. You may discover that porn is not the problem, but only certain aspects of behavior that are associated with porn that you will need to be mindful about in the future. 

Regards, 
Badsanta


----------



## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

personofinterest said:


> I definitely understand this. But it really isn't YOUR place (or anyone else's) to make a declarative statement about what all men should do.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I disagree. If that’s he case you shouldn’t be with that person.


----------



## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I would say just the opposite.... that *masturbation with porn can't possibly compete with partner sex*... it's just that many men don't realize this at this point. Porn is just _easier _which gives the _illusion _of better. It may all be part of our instant gratification culture where people expect everything to come fast and easy. Many, especially men, have lost the capacity to fully appreciate and be present in the journey rather than just reach for the destination without wanting to put any effort into it.




Ok so it’s better for SOME men. Some men can’t even get it up for real women. Some men can finish without their hand and porn.


----------



## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

personofinterest said:


> Here's a question:
> 
> 
> 
> For those against porn full stop, what if the husband is looking at pictures or video of his own wife? Is that different?




That’s better. I like porn when I’m not in a relationship. I masterbate “a lot” and I like videos of my partner and that’s what I use.


----------



## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

uhtred said:


> Do you see it as a problem if men use porn when they are turned down for sex by their partners, or only if they are using it instead of sex with their partner?




I understand why they do it. I did not forbid my partner from using it. I don’t ask them about it, I don’t go looking for it, but I don’t like it. If I find it I will be mad, especially if we are having problems in the bedroom or if I am being refused. 
However... I have he higher sex drive in my relationship. I get denied sometimes, he never does. I masterbate more than him... but that’s ok Bc I never refuse him. Also I don’t use porn. 

I do not think it’s good to always use porn when you masterbate period.

So short answer, yes I have a problem with it even if the spouse refuses. Using porn less than 50% of the time isn’t a big deal.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Girl_power said:


> Ok so it’s better for SOME men. Some men can’t even get it up for real women. Some men can finish without their hand and porn.


I don't see that some men having desensitized themselves to real women actually makes porn "better." The porn isn't any better, they've just ruined their ability to handle the real thing. 

If I put too much garlic in my marinara, it doesn't mean that the alfredo is any better than it was. The alfredo is still the same alfredo it always was. All I've done is ruined the marinara.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Girl_power said:


> That’s better. I like porn when I’m not in a relationship. I masterbate “a lot” and I like videos of my partner and that’s what I use.


Curious.

You like porn when you're not in a relationship.
You like to masturbate to videos of your partner.

But if you're not in a relationship, you don't have a partner.... what am I missing?


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I don't see that some men having desensitized themselves to real women actually makes porn "better." The porn isn't any better, they've just ruined their ability to handle the real thing.
> 
> If I put too much garlic in my marinara, it doesn't mean that the alfredo is any better than it was. The alfredo is still the same alfredo it always was. All I've done is ruined the marinara.


If you're making Alfredo with Marinara, too much garlic isn't your problem. 

Damn Philistines.


----------



## Satisfied Mind (Jan 29, 2019)

I have worked hard to successfully cut porn out of my life because:

1. It was impacting my sex life with my wife. I thought I was using it to bridge the gap between our differing sex drives, but in reality it was causing me to pursue my wife with less frequency and passion, which only exacerbated the gap.

2. It was impacting how I looked at women I encountered in daily life. Most porn is extremely objectifying, and subconsciously that was carrying over to how I looked at women in real life. I didn't like how that made me feel.

3. It was creating unrealistic and negative expectations of what sex with my wife should be like, which was hurting my view of our sex life.

4. For most porn on the internet, there's no way to know for sure that the participants weren't coerced or the victims of sexual trafficking. I don't want any part in supporting that.

5. I needed to be honest with myself that porn use does not reconcile with my religious beliefs.

6. I am very wary of developing dependencies or addictions, whether it be alcohol, coffee, material things, etc. It was scary to me how hard it was to stop using porn, which only strengthened my resolve.

I emphasize that I have no issue with masturbation generally. Heck, my wife has made some hawt videos for when circumstances arise that prevent us from being together physically.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Cletus said:


> If you're making Alfredo with Marinara, too much garlic isn't your problem.
> 
> Damn Philistines.


The Alfredo is for the shrimp fettuccine on Monday night and the Marinara is for linguine with clams on Tuesday night. Don't worry, I wash the pots between batches:wink2:


----------



## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Curious.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Curious.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




When I’m in a relationship, I don’t use porn, instead I masterbate to thoughts or videos of my boyfriend. When I am not in a relationship, I use porn occasionally when I masterbate.


----------



## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Satisfied Mind said:


> I have worked hard to successfully cut porn out of my life because:
> 
> 1. It was impacting my sex life with my wife. I thought I was using it to bridge the gap between our differing sex drives, but in reality it was causing me to pursue my wife with less frequency and passion, which only exacerbated the gap.




My boyfriend has said these things as well. He doesn’t watch porn when he’s in a relationship because he says not only does sex feel so much better but his sexual relationships improve because the passion and drive is there. There isn’t this I don’t have to try or put in much effort because I can just watch porn anyway.


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

I gotta say, I'm sensing a bit of unfairness year. A man is not supposed to use porne. A woman gets to refuse to have sex with her ban. And the frustrated man still cannot use porne. Am I reading some kind of weirdo feminist website hahaha?


----------



## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

personofinterest said:


> I gotta say, I'm sensing a bit of unfairness year. A man is not supposed to use porne. A woman gets to refuse to have sex with her ban. And the frustrated man still cannot use porne. Am I reading some kind of weirdo feminist website hahaha?




I never refuse my man. My man refuses me and I still don’t watch porn. 

If my man who refuses me watches porn.. that’s not ok.


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Girl_power said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> > I gotta say, I'm sensing a bit of unfairness year. A man is not supposed to use porne. A woman gets to refuse to have sex with her ban. And the frustrated man still cannot use porne. Am I reading some kind of weirdo feminist website hahaha?
> ...


 I agree with what you are saying. If your man is refusing to have sex with you and in addition he is using porne, that would tick me off royally. I mean he has a willing partner who he is Neglecting and he is using pornography instead? No way!


However, if I was only deigning to let him touch me 2 or 3 times a year, then I really shouldn't be surprised when he spanks to pornographia in desperation. It's pretty much my fault hes so frustrated.


----------



## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

Girl_power said:


> When I’m in a relationship, I don’t use porn, instead *I masterbate to thoughts* or videos *of my boyfriend. *


That is super squicky to me. I’d be up for personal videos, but it’s not her thing. 

FYR, I’m infrequent user of commercial porn, generally only when apart.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

CraigBesuden said:


> What are your issues with porn? Is it your man lusting after another woman’s image? Would you provide him with scantily clad pictures of yourself?
> 
> What if he uses a catalog underwear section - is that cheating?
> 
> ...


 I have so many serious concerns about porn. They are not just related to my faith either, I would have similar concerns anyway. 
My husband hit the nail on the head a while back, when he said this about other women, 'they are not mine to look at'. The only female body he looks at is mine.As his wife I am his to see and have sex with. 

We both see it as cheating yes, and there are so many reports that show how incredibly damaging it is to the one who looks(especially if it children who are looking), the spouses of those who look and the marriages(therefore also children) of those who look. Many marriages have ended though this, I know of two myself. 

They change the brains of those who look, they change the way they see the opposite sex, how they can get aroused, and how they see sex in a normal healthy relationship. Often they need to watch worse and worse things to get aroused and the porn industry as a whole is so damaging and unhealthy. These people are all someone's wife, daughter, grandchild, sister or brother. Would you want men ogling your 18 year old daughter? 

Yes I would provide pictures of myself if he asked.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

personofinterest said:


> I gotta say, I'm sensing a bit of unfairness year. A man is not supposed to use porne. A woman gets to refuse to have sex with her ban. And the frustrated man still cannot use porne. Am I reading some kind of weirdo feminist website hahaha?


If a man I was with refused sex, that doesn't give me an excuse to watch porn.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

CharlieParker said:


> That is super squicky to me. I’d be up for personal videos, but it’s not her thing.
> 
> FYR, I’m infrequent user of commercial porn, generally only when apart.


I once told my wife I had a fantasy of arriving in a strange city for work, checking in to my hotel and opening my bag to find an envelope from her with a thumbdrive of her putting on a show for me.

I knew that would remain a fantasy and was okay with that, but seeing the strength of her distaste in my sharing that fantasy with her made it very difficult for me not to just say "Okay, so PornHub it is!"


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Satisfied Mind said:


> I have worked hard to successfully cut porn out of my life because:
> 
> 1. It was impacting my sex life with my wife. I thought I was using it to bridge the gap between our differing sex drives, but in reality it was causing me to pursue my wife with less frequency and passion, which only exacerbated the gap.
> 
> ...


Good for you. Most of what you say is how I feel also. No good comes out of porn use.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

personofinterest said:


> Here's a question:
> 
> For those against porn full stop, what if the husband is looking at pictures or video of his own wife? Is that different?


He is allowed to lust after his own wife.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Talk2Me said:


> I've been with my g/f for a little over 2 years now and we have sex nearly every single day. I still look at porn but mostly it's the porn we've made together or pictures of her etc. I honestly never masturbate because I don't need to. I used to when I was married prior because I wasn't in a healthy relationship sexually. Porn can be a good thing. It can give you ideas and if you look at it and watch it together can be exciting. Guys will always look at porn and the more you try to push us away from it things will only get worse. My g/f is fine with me looking at porn but def. has an issue if I were to be talking to some cam girl or something along those lines. If there is actual communication going on then she will prob. kill me.


Not all guys do. Many think its harmful to themselves and their marriages so they don't.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Diana7 said:


> Good for you. Most of what you say is how I feel also. No good comes out of porn use.


It has helped to save my marriage.

What, you don't like marriage? I should have divorced my wife? What's the lesser evil here?


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Diana7 said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> > Here's a question:
> ...


 You would think so, but I have encountered some christians who believe all lust is SIM. You should not even lust after your spouse. Your sexual desire should be a pure love. I don't really know how that works lol


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

I agree that there are in fact a good number of men who do not use pornography. I am not sure why the pornographia defenders are so adamant that every normal male on the planet must do it. May thinks thou protest too much or something


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

personofinterest said:


> I agree that there are in fact a good number of men who do not use pornography. I am not sure why the pornographia defenders are so adamant that every normal male on the planet must do it. May thinks thou protest too much or something


That's because most men don't know another man that doesn't view it.

Really. Of the men I know for whom I have any inkling on this topic, I don't know a single one who wouldn't shrug and say "yeah, sometimes". You could argue that I only know creeps, or that I only know the porn use of creeps, or that I'm not asking all of the men I know (which is absolutely true), but I work with highly educated professionals from all walks of life, and the wink-wink nudge-nudge is that we all do it. 

It's not a "must" thing, it's a "in reality" thing. How does the joke go? Show me a man who doesn't watch porn and I'll show you a blind parapalegic. 

And yes, I'm sohpisticated enough to know that this does not mean that every man on the planet does it. Some of them don't have internet.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Cletus said:


> It has helped to save my marriage.
> 
> What, you don't like marriage? I should have divorced my wife? What's the lesser evil here?


I dont believe that porn is ever good for a marriage. I am sure there were other ways you could have saved it that resorting to porn.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

personofinterest said:


> I agree that there are in fact a good number of men who do not use pornography. I am not sure why the pornographia defenders are so adamant that every normal male on the planet must do it. May thinks thou protest too much or something


Yes I hate that, 'well all men do it' excuse'. Its nonsense. I guess it makes hem feel better about it.


----------



## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

I can’t help but think of this from Avenue Q:

https://youtu.be/LTJvdGcb7Fs


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Diana7 said:


> I dont believe that porn is ever good for a marriage. I am sure there were other ways you could have saved it that resorting to porn.


A sister-wife, perhaps?


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Cletus said:


> That's because most men don't know another man that doesn't view it.
> 
> Really. Of the men I know for whom I have any inkling on this topic, I don't know a single one who wouldn't shrug and say "yeah, sometimes". You could argue that I only know creeps, or that I only know the porn use of creeps, or that I'm not asking all of the men I know (which is absolutely true), but I work with highly educated professionals from all walks of life, and the wink-wink nudge-nudge is that we all do it.
> 
> ...


See you are doing it again, assuming that the only reason that man don't watch porn is because they don't have the internet. 
That joke is also offensive to those men who don't. 
My husband is a highly educated professional, a scientist, health care worker and university lecturer with a phd, and also a qualified accountant. He knows many men who don't use porn. 

You can't seem to grasp that many men choose NOT to watch porn, maybe it makes you feel better to believe that all men do, but its a lie.


----------



## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

personofinterest said:


> You would think so, but I have encountered some christians who believe all lust is SIM. You should not even lust after your spouse. Your sexual desire should be a pure love. I don't really know how that works lol




That’s not biblical at all. Song of Solomon is basically a book about a man lusting after his wife. (Ok there is more to it than that). But the point is, god wants us to have a healthy happy sex life with our spouse.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Cletus said:


> A sister-wife, perhaps?


Nope.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

personofinterest said:


> You would think so, but I have encountered some christians who believe all lust is SIM. You should not even lust after your spouse. Your sexual desire should be a pure love. I don't really know how that works lol


They need to read song of songs. :smile2:


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Diana7 said:


> You can't seem to grasp that many men choose NOT to watch porn, maybe it makes you feel better to believe that all men do, but its a lie.


And you can't seem to grasp that a good number of the men who tell you they aren't using porn probably are.

As studies routinely demonstrate.

The hubris associated with telling everyone else how they should run their personal life never gets old, does it?

See, what you REALLY don't get is that I don't give two ****s for what anyone does in front of their own computer screen - take it or leave it. It's the moralizing, "I know better than you how you should live your own life you incorrigible sinner" crap that gets under my skin.

And THEN you have the gall to come on here and tell me that I'm doing my marriage wrong because I found a compromise way that doesn't meet your standards of staying with a good woman.

How's that beam in your own eye doing?

Jesus had a helluva lot more to say about pompous arrogance than he ever had to say about porn.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Diana7 said:


> See you are doing it again, assuming that the only reason that man don't watch porn is because they don't have the internet.
> That joke is also offensive to those men who don't.
> My husband is a highly educated professional, a scientist, health care worker and university lecturer with a phd, and also a qualified accountant. He knows many men who don't use porn.
> 
> You can't seem to grasp that many men choose NOT to watch porn, maybe it makes you feel better to believe that all men do, but its a lie.


I don't use porn.
I still couldn't help but chuckle at Cletus' joke. It was funny. But then I do often have a very irreverent sense of humor.

I guess if I stop and think about it, it's kind of sad that the joke is funny because, even though there are men who abstain, they are in the minority and porn use is so prevalent. But I still couldn't suppress the chuckle. It was funny.

In any case, I didn't find it offensive. I generally don't take offense at such things. I know who I am.


----------



## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Cletus said:


> Diana7 said:
> 
> 
> > I dont believe that porn is ever good for a marriage. I am sure there were other ways you could have saved it that resorting to porn.
> ...


This is a priceless response.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I feel its situation dependent. 

In my case my wife sometimes goes 2-3 months without wanting sex and even when things are "good" by our standards she turns me down 2/3 of the time. I've turned her down less than half a dozen times in 30 years, and have almost never turned down doing something she wanted.

So I guess I feel that its about patterns. If someone rarely turns down their partner, but is themselves often turned down, I don't see a problme. 

I also view (non interactive) porn, sex toys, erotic / romance novels, and masturbation as all pretty equivalent. I know some people view them very differently




Girl_power said:


> I understand why they do it. I did not forbid my partner from using it. I don’t ask them about it, I don’t go looking for it, but I don’t like it. If I find it I will be mad, especially if we are having problems in the bedroom or if I am being refused.
> However... I have he higher sex drive in my relationship. I get denied sometimes, he never does. I masterbate more than him... but that’s ok Bc I never refuse him. Also I don’t use porn.
> 
> I do not think it’s good to always use porn when you masterbate period.
> ...


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> I dont believe that porn is ever good for a marriage. I am sure there were other ways you could have saved it that resorting to porn.


What would you suggest for someone whose spouse has little or no interest in sex, and where there is nothing that either is aware of that will change that. Some people believe in divorce in that situation, but not all.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

CraigBesuden said:


> What are your issues with porn? Is it your man lusting after another woman’s image? Would you provide him with scantily clad pictures of yourself?
> 
> What if he uses a catalog underwear section - is that cheating?
> 
> ...




Haha, i like your style: get straight into the thick of it!
Yeah I don’t have any issues with porn, if used responsibly and not at the expense of your partner’s intimacy requirements....
But you must be asking women as most men will give the same answers: unless it’s catholicdad or Diana7’s husband.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I don't use porn.
> I still couldn't help but chuckle at Cletus' joke. It was funny. But then I do often have a very irreverent sense of humor.
> 
> I guess if I stop and think about it, it's kind of sad that the joke is funny because, even though there are men who abstain, they are in the minority and porn use is so prevalent. But I still couldn't suppress the chuckle. It was funny.
> ...


It does get a bit tiring when the same old same old are quoted here, such as this 'joke'. Heard it several times before and no doubt will do again from men who cant believe that not all men are the same as he is. 
I am rarely offended, I care nothing about what others think or say about myself, but I sometimes despair at this attitude that 'all men do it' unless there is something 'wrong' with them. Its just so wrong. Yes they may be in a minority, but its a pretty substantial minority and I admire such men for going against the flow and not being afraid to be different.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

InMyPrime said:


> Haha, i like your style: get straight into the thick of it!
> Yeah I don’t have any issues with porn, if used responsibly and not at the expense of your partner’s intimacy requirements....
> But you must be asking women as most men will give the same answers: unless it’s catholicdad or Diana7’s husband.
> 
> ...


There are many men like my husband who go against the flow. I greatly admire them for it.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

uhtred said:


> What would you suggest for someone whose spouse has little or no interest in sex, and where there is nothing that either is aware of that will change that. Some people believe in divorce in that situation, but not all.


Masturbation without porn is entirely possible, people have done that for all of history. Porn as we know it is very very recent.


----------



## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

Andy is late here. I am opposed to porn because it gives my wife false expectations as to how soon the plumber or cable guy will show up.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Cletus said:


> And you can't seem to grasp that a good number of the men who tell you they aren't using porn probably are.
> 
> As studies routinely demonstrate.
> 
> ...


You are projecting. 

There is never a need for porn in marriage, there are always other ways of working things out. My husband has issues with his sex life with his first wife of 23 years. He was very often rejected. He never used porn.
You can't seem to grasp that many men don't watch porn. 
Many surveys conducted anonymously among Christians for example have shown that at least 50% don't watch porn. OK 50% is 50% too many, but its still millions and millions of men who don't. You cant seem to grasp that its entirely possible for men to stay away from porn.

IF you are ok with using porn then that's your choice, but don't try and justify it by claiming that all men do it unless there is something wrong with them. If it offends you that many men don't do it and it makes you feel guilty, that's down to you not me, but you need to accept that a good number think its bad for them and their marriage and don't do it.


----------



## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Diana7 said:


> Masturbation without porn is entirely possible, people have done that for all of history. Porn as we know it is very very recent.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> Masturbation without porn is entirely possible, people have done that for all of history. Porn as we know it is very very recent.


Possible, but in a marriage with no or almost no sex life, what is the downside?


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> There are many men like my husband who go against the flow. I greatly admire them for it.


That is good. Do you try to be a good sexual partner and make him happy in bed? That is also good. (and I hope he does the same for you). You have a good sex life.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Diana7 said:


> uhtred said:
> 
> 
> > What would you suggest for someone whose spouse has little or no interest in sex, and where there is nothing that either is aware of that will change that. Some people believe in divorce in that situation, but not all.
> ...


Why is masturbation fine but porn not?


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Diana7 said:


> It does get a bit tiring when the same old same old are quoted here, such as this 'joke'. Heard it several times before and no doubt will do again from men who cant believe that not all men are the same as he is.
> I am rarely offended, I care nothing about what others think or say about myself, but I sometimes despair at this attitude that 'all men do it' unless there is something 'wrong' with them. Its just so wrong. Yes they may be in a minority, but its a pretty substantial minority and I admire such men for going against the flow and not being afraid to be different.


I guess I hadn't heard that particular joke before, so it was fresh to me. 

I do understand your distaste with the constant repetition of certain distasteful themes.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

uhtred said:


> That is good. Do you try to be a good sexual partner and make him happy in bed? That is also good. (and I hope he does the same for you). You have a good sex life.


Yes but that doesn't change the fact that porn is a no no for us. We have both had long periods with no sex in the past. I was a single mum for 6 years.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Why is masturbation fine but porn not?


In masturbation you are not including other people, in film or pictures. Its not adultery of the heart, but a physical release.


----------



## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

personofinterest said:


> Honestly, I have mixed feelings. The answer I am supposed to have as a card-carrying member of X church is that it is lust. It is committing adultery in one's heart. All that.
> 
> Basically, though, taking religion out of it completely - because most people who defend porn are NOT really all that religious - not really....
> 
> ...


That is good.


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Diana7 said:
> 
> 
> > uhtred said:
> ...


 I would assume it is because masturbation can be a purely physical stimulation that leads to release. Porne typically involves fantasizing or getting that release inspired by images of someone other than your spouse. In The Bible, Jesus says that if a man lusts after a woman other than his wife, he has already committed adultery in his heart. For those who claim to believe The Bible, that would mean that lusting to pornographia I and masturbating to pornography would be adultery of the heart.


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

One of the things I find interesting is that every time Diana States that her husband does not use porne and she States the absolute fact that there are healthy men out there who do not use pornography, several defensive men assume she is telling them how to live their lives. Diana and I do not agree on everything, but I have never heard her tell anyone else how to live their lives. So if a man is perceiving it that way, that is on him. It makes me wonder why he is so defensive if he truly believes porn is fine...


----------



## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

i am sure you can find some men who use never use porn. But i would wager many who SAY they do not use porn...you just have not caught them watching it yet.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

personofinterest said:


> Honestly, I have mixed feelings. The answer I am supposed to have as a card-carrying member of X church is that it is lust. It is committing adultery in one's heart. All that.
> 
> Basically, though, taking religion out of it completely - because most people who defend porn are NOT really all that religious - not really....
> 
> ...


I believe that we are all responsible for what we do in life, so to say, well my spouse does that so I can do this doesn't wash with me. If I believe porn is wrong and damaging for me and my marriage, then whatever my husband does wouldn't make me think its ok to act badly. Isnt it up to us to keep to our principles no matter what happens?
I don't read 50 shades of grey or similar, but I would far rather any partner read a book than watched porn with real people. Both can make us discontent with our spouses though, so both are unwise. 

As a Christian I know that Jesus is very wise. If he says that something is wrong then there is good reason. Mind you I knew from a young age that porn wasn't what I wanted in my life or any future marriage, and that was before I was following God.


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

I do not think someone else is wrong ever excuses mine. I will say, however, any one who is upset about the San of pornography better be just as upset when a spouse violates 1st Corinthians 7 by with holding 6 from their spouse peering it because they are both wrong


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Talker67 said:


> i am sure you can find some men who use never use porn. But i would wager many who SAY they do not use porn...you just have not caught them watching it yet.


 It might surprise you to know that just because lying and deception is common in your circle, that doesn't mean all men are liars lol


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Diana7 said:


> In masturbation you are not including other people, in film or pictures. Its not adultery of the heart, but a physical release.


 @Diana7 I'm not really disagreeing with you, or that mast is not the way to go if a W or H will immediately be available for lengthy liaison and other times for quickie sex both ways, etc, etc, but I offer a couple comments for discussion sake. 

Porn has been around forever in different forms, so people haven't been mast without porn since forever.

Mast is simulated sex, if you will, in some fashion, even if super quick by male or female. At some point, given someone offers valid contradictory facts, an SO or single person has at least fleeting thought of a sexual nature when mast.

Yes, men and women can wait between sexual liaisons if necessary, to a certain point without it causing a relationship problem with a spouse. It's a given continual rejection without medical reasons will cause deeper problems, or is a sign of deeper problems. 

No, deeper problems aren't always the man's fault or inattention to W reasoning, or always the woman's fault either.

This background info is to pose this question:

Is it better for a spouse to mast. to get some release during a dry spell, gain some time for solutions to present, or just divorce to avoid masturbation?

Yes, abstinence is a choice and tolerated for a while in my example, then mast. or divorce.

Knowing mast. never occurs without sexual thoughts of some kind, and not 100% of the time without some (not sex with spouse) thoughts. 

I'm not saying I'm pro or against porn here just throwing some things out there.

I'm not saying I have the answer. But if one has to divorce to masturbate that seems problematic so I'm pretty sure it's not as cut and dried as some persist in flogging others about.

And from a man's point if view, it's a surety every young man has masturbated. It's perhaps a woman's hope, and should be, that her M is the only one who's H has never masturbated after marriage. 

Kindly.


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

I don't think any woman actually believes that her husband has never masturbated since being married. But I think that is different from not viewing pornographia after marriage. And, of course, one of the best ways to avoid viewing pornography after marriage is to never start the habit to begin with.

S4 as whether or not someone can masturbate without having any sexual thought, I'm sure there are people who cannot and I'm sure there are people who can, but a fleeting thought is still different from watching Susie go at it on camera and focusing on Suzy while achieving release. I am not saying badd or good either, just pointing out that they aren't really the same thing.

This is one of those personal decisions. I just get tired of people basically calling posters on here or the spouses of posters on here and liars so that they can defend their own pour to use. No 1 is asking any person to defend their love of pornography. It's just annoying to be marked over not liking pornography. These same people tend to be on the side of the aisle that is always preaching tolerance, so that makes it even more annoying.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> There are many men like my husband who go against the flow. I greatly admire them for it.



That’s mostly down to you though! Since I’m sure you provide great help with his...’flow’.
There are probably men that are not so lucky and it helps them (it also reduces incidences of rape and sexual violence. Not that it is normal to rape when you can’t get a gf...).
It’s only a problem if you use porn instead of wife. And most men will find it to be a poor substitute. Except maybe catholicdad.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

InMyPrime said:


> Diana7 said:
> 
> 
> > There are many men like my husband who go against the flow. I greatly admire them for it.
> ...


 So, in other words, men have such weak character and are so weak and pathetic that the only way they can avoid porne is if there woman takes the responsibility for their baser urges? Wow, how impressive lol


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

CharlieParker said:


> Andy is late here. I am opposed to porn because it gives my wife false expectations as to how soon the plumber or cable guy will show up.



Oh no...we need new jokes...

How many guys can participate in a gang bang before it gets a bit gay? 

I watched porn the other day and it was just a guy jerking off while crying. Then i realised I forgot to turn on the tv.

What kind of bees produce milk? 
Boobees....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

InMyPrime said:


> It’s only a problem if you use porn instead of wife.


BRB, I need to use my wife.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> Masturbation without porn is entirely possible, people have done that for all of history. Porn as we know it is very very recent.




If 28,000 is recent, then you must be getting on a bit...

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...s--28-000-years-ago--men-ONE-thing-minds.html


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

personofinterest said:


> So, in other words, men have such weak character and are so weak and pathetic that the only way they can avoid porne is if there woman takes the responsibility for their baser urges? Wow, how impressive lol



It’s not the only way. But it’s a way...and Jesus was quite clear about it....when he said stuff about two bodies becoming one fatty blob and loving her neighbour, as she would love her husband...and making sure she turns the other cheek during spankings otherwise one side always gets too purple...
It’s a lot of plates to juggle for poor women. I don’t envy them with all theses instructions and deeds they need to perform, that, I agree with you.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

InMyPrime said:


> It’s not the only way. But it’s a way...and Jesus was quite clear about it....when he said stuff about two bodies becoming one fatty blob and loving her neighbour, as she would love her husband...and making sure she turns the other cheek during spankings otherwise one side always gets too purple...
> It’s a lot of plates to juggle for poor women. I don’t envy them with all theses instructions and deeds they need to perform, that, I agree with you.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I must have missed the part where He said it's okay to do something wrong as long as someone else does something wrong first. I guess I bought the non-PC Bible lol


----------



## dadstartingover (Oct 23, 2015)

Porn is like junk food. Okay on occasion. Too much of it and your health and wellbeing suffers. You find you're not eating the REAL food that your body craves. Pretty soon you have a pile of pizza boxes in your kitchen, you've gained 50 lbs, and you're miserable.

Some of us can have a slice of pizza and be okay for a while and not ever think about pizza again. Some of us have a slice, have five more slices, and then have more the next day. Booze is also another good analogy. I can have a cocktail and not think about it. Other people end up hiding vodka bottles around the house.

I wrote my thoughts on porn, and oh boy... lots of dudes sure didn't like it. More than one told me to F off with my nonsense. I think the first sign that a vice is a problem is if you get very defensive about it. These guys are addicts.

*My thoughts on porn.*

With all that being said, my wife and I enjoy watching it together. It's part of our sexy secret life... which includes several other things that shall not be mentioned. :wink2:


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

> I think the first sign that a vice is a problem is if you get very defensive about it.


Yep


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Girl_power said:


> I understand why they do it. I did not forbid my partner from using it. I don’t ask them about it, I don’t go looking for it, but I don’t like it. If I find it I will be mad, especially if we are having problems in the bedroom or if I am being refused.
> However... I have he higher sex drive in my relationship. I get denied sometimes, he never does. I masterbate more than him... but that’s ok Bc I never refuse him. Also I don’t use porn.
> 
> I do not think it’s good to always use porn when you masterbate period.
> ...


 @Girl_power all the people that get super defensive about porn are probably the ones that have a problem with porn and refuse to believe that there is a problem. 

You have those that need porn to masturbate and in my opinion those are the folks that have overstimulated themselves and always require just a little something unrealistically novel to keep it going. Take away the porn and then they will struggle to get off and perhaps give up or decide it is not worth trying. In my opinion this is because porn has numbed the mind and destroyed almost all forms of sexual curiosity since they have seen it all with every possible porn star with any physical attributes you could imagine that is extremely well indexed, categorized, rated, and commented. 

In my opinion those that require porn are using sexuality as a form of self soothing sexual medication. As in an escape from emotional pain, strengthening emotional barriers and avoiding vulnerability. Then in real life sex with a partner does NOT work that way. Sex with a loving spouse is about an emotional connection, allowing yourself to be vulnerable, and caring for one another. 

However human sexuality by nature refuses to function on democratic rules of fairness. Once something becomes too comfortable, repetitive, and easy, well then it is no longer sexually stimulating. Ideally there has to be an element of something uneasy and difficult that pushes the relationship forwards sexually and promotes positive self development. So for this reason, problems with sex in a LTR should actually be embraced as an opportunity to make it that much better. You just need for both partners to be open and willing to engage in a meaningful argument versus running away and avoiding things. 

This is written from the viewpoint to try and help the OP. So if you want to reply, the OP is someone struggling and trying to work on things regarding porn use in his relationship. Perhaps you would want to offer some words of encouragement.

Regards, 
Badsanta


----------



## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

Diana7 said:


> UpsideDownWorld11 said:
> 
> 
> > Why is masturbation fine but porn not?
> ...


If you think about any person other than your spouse, even without pictures, isn’t that still adultery of the heart?

Are you saying that masturbation is okay but only if you are thinking about your spouse or no person at all?


----------



## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

_Quote:
Originally Posted by Diana7 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by UpsideDownWorld11 View Post
Why is masturbation fine but porn not?
In masturbation you are not including other people, in film or pictures. Its not adultery of the heart, but a physical release.
If you think about any person other than your spouse, even without pictures, isn’t that still adultery of the heart?

Are you saying that masturbation is okay but only if you are thinking about your spouse or no person at all?_
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*Or what about masturbating while watching your spouse in a porn ........ It gets complicated !*


----------



## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

CraigBesuden said:


> If you think about any person other than your spouse, even without pictures, isn’t that still adultery of the heart?
> 
> Are you saying that masturbation is okay but only if you are thinking about your spouse or no person at all?




If that’s what you believe! No one knows what your thinking. If someone believes that lusting after someone else is sin, then they are responsible to hold themselves accountable.


----------



## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

As a Christian person it’s not my job to hold my boyfriend accountable for things he doesn’t believe. I try my hardest to live my life as I believe it should be lived. I messed up all the time. I am responsible for my actions only.
As for my boyfriends behavior.... I set my boundaries of what I want/ don’t want and what I will and will not tolerate. Just like he sets the same boundaries for me.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Don't most people fantasize when they masturbate?



personofinterest said:


> I would assume it is because masturbation can be a purely physical stimulation that leads to release. Porne typically involves fantasizing or getting that release inspired by images of someone other than your spouse. In The Bible, Jesus says that if a man lusts after a woman other than his wife, he has already committed adultery in his heart. For those who claim to believe The Bible, that would mean that lusting to pornographia I and masturbating to pornography would be adultery of the heart.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

InMyPrime said:


> That’s mostly down to you though! Since I’m sure you provide great help with his...’flow’.
> There are probably men that are not so lucky and it helps them (it also reduces incidences of rape and sexual violence. Not that it is normal to rape when you can’t get a gf...).
> It’s only a problem if you use porn instead of wife. And most men will find it to be a poor substitute. Except maybe catholicdad.
> 
> ...


Its honestly not down to me. Its down to him and his own values of what he sees as right and wrong. He didn't have sex till he first married at 25, was rejected sexually many times in his first marriage of 23 years, had a gap before we married and yet, he never used porn. He appreciates that porn is a temptation and struggle for many men which is why he doesn't want to even start looking.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Girl_power said:


> As a Christian person it’s not my job to hold my boyfriend accountable for things he doesn’t believe. I try my hardest to live my life as I believe it should be lived. I messed up all the time. I am responsible for my actions only.
> As for my boyfriends behavior.... I set my boundaries of what I want/ don’t want and what I will and will not tolerate. Just like he sets the same boundaries for me.


Yes, we were the same, and neither of us would marry a person who thought it was ok to watch porn because for us its a no no.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

uhtred said:


> Don't most people fantasize when they masturbate?


You can fantasise about your spouse.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

CraigBesuden said:


> If you think about any person other than your spouse, even without pictures, isn’t that still adultery of the heart?
> 
> Are you saying that masturbation is okay but only if you are thinking about your spouse or no person at all?


In my opinion yes.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

True - but the may not work as well if you have a spouse with very limited sexual interest. Isn't it a bit rude to fantasize about your partner doing something you know that they hate? 



Diana7 said:


> You can fantasise about your spouse.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

personofinterest said:


> One of the things I find interesting is that every time Diana States that her husband does not use porne and she States the absolute fact that there are healthy men out there who do not use pornography, several defensive men assume she is telling them how to live their lives. Diana and I do not agree on everything, but I have never heard her tell anyone else how to live their lives. So if a man is perceiving it that way, that is on him. It makes me wonder why he is so defensive if he truly believes porn is fine...


Then you have not been paying attention. 

Porn is never good in a marriage. If you are using it, you are being a bad husband or wife. No exceptions, no conditions, no argument to the contrary will be accepted. 

I don't know how much closer you could get to telling people how to live their lives without coming over to their house to knock the Playboy out of their hands.

No one doubts that there are good men and women out there who do not use porn. No one here fails to support Diana7's choice to make that a condition of her marriage. No one believes that she does not have a right to her own value system, FOR HER AND HER HUSBAND.

Sadly, extending that courtesy to others is beyond her.


----------



## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Cletus said:


> Then you have not been paying attention.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Welcome to the real world where people have their own personal boundaries. Some women don’t care, some women do. It’s not about telling people what to do. Men have boundaries as well, how is this any different?


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Girl_power said:


> Welcome to the real world where people have their own personal boundaries. Some women don’t care, some women do. It’s not about telling people what to do. Men have boundaries as well, how is this any different?


I'm not here telling you that your boundaries are wrong for you. I'm telling you they're wrong for me. You don't seem to be able to accept that. 

Do you really fail to see the difference?


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Why is it not okay with these porn-obsessed men for Girl Power and Diana to have their own opinions?

Who exactly is telling who how to live??


----------



## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Cletus said:


> I'm not here telling you that your boundaries are wrong for you. I'm telling you they're wrong for me. You don't seem to be able to accept that.
> 
> 
> 
> Do you really fail to see the difference?




The OP asked about people’s opinion on porn. We all have ours. I don’t care what other people do, I DO care what my significant other does.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

uhtred said:


> True - but the may not work as well if you have a spouse with very limited sexual interest. Isn't it a bit rude to fantasize about your partner doing something you know that they hate?



Interesting question.

What would my wife thing about me fantasizing about having oral sex with her? Good question. Really good question.


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Mast shouldn't be something that prevents an SO from being responsive to sexual requests from their partner in a relationship, whether computer porn is used or not.

Then it's a problem if one has the health of the relationship as paramount, as usually is best, to state the obvious.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Girl_power said:


> Sex in real life can’t compete with masterbating to porn... or at least not after being with the same person for 30years. Eliminate the porn and you will really start to enjoy sex more.





Girl_power said:


> Who cares. You need to learn to masterbate without it. And no one is going to be available at your becking call that isn’t realistic.





Girl_power said:


> I disagree. If that’s he case you shouldn’t be with that person.





Girl_power said:


> The OP asked about people’s opinion on porn. We all have ours. I don’t care what other people do, I DO care what my significant other does.


Then I apologize. Because it certainly felt to me like you were telling others how they should behave in their relationships.


----------



## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Cletus said:


> Then I apologize. Because it certainly felt to me like you were telling others how they should behave in their relationships.




I am speaking for myself only. I do not think porn is good for anyone’s relationship period.


----------



## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Cletus said:


> If you're making Alfredo with Marinara, too much garlic isn't your problem.
> 
> Damn Philistines.


This made me laugh. A friend described a dish she enjoyed at a local Italian restaurant and it turned out to be exactly that - the sauce was a combination of alfredo and marinara. She still raves over it.


----------



## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

I truly don't think either Diana7 or Girl_power gives a rat's patoot who's masturbating to porn and who isn't. They are only expressing their opinions.

I don't understand why some are taking their opinions so personally. It's ok if your opinion doesn't agree with their's. It's what makes the world go around (that and money).


----------



## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

Blondilocks said:


> I truly don't think either Diana7 or Girl_power gives a rat's patoot who's masturbating to porn and who isn't. They are only expressing their opinions.
> 
> I don't understand why some are taking their opinions so personally. It's ok if your opinion doesn't agree with their's. It's what makes the world go around (that and money).



For everything else there's Mastercard


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Blondilocks said:


> I truly don't think either Diana7 or Girl_power gives a rat's patoot who's masturbating to porn and who isn't. They are only expressing their opinions.
> 
> I don't understand why some are taking their opinions so personally. It's ok if your opinion doesn't agree with their's. It's what makes the world go around (that and money).


I like differences of opinion too, but I do have a chip on my shoulder for those who think that their opinion should apply to everyone, and who will invalidate anyone else's experience as wrong-headed when it conflicts with theirs. I guess that's on me. 

And that is what's really at the heart of this topic, for me. I'm neither a porn addict nor a heavy user, but it has its place in some relationships. Platitudes of "you should find another way" are less than helpful and overtly patronizing. If it works for some, it works. Don't tell me that my marriage of 34 years is being run incorrectly. I have sacrificed a lot sexually to take my vows seriously. This is a small compromise to that end. It is, FOR ME, on balance a good thing. 

I'm taking it personally because it is being delivered personally - the message is "you are wrong, and you are a bad husband". Not "you would be a bad husband for me", but in the universal for all spouses sense.


----------



## Mybabysgotit (Jul 1, 2019)

"Too many guys expect from their woman what they see and hear in the porn videos. Since they don't realize it's just acting, they expect a woman to moan and groan, hoop and holler, and give him the idea that she's enjoying it and he's a major stud just because he's having sex with her."

wait...whaat?? What "guys" are you talking about...teenagers? I very much doubt a grown man would expect, or even begin to think that his wife or SO should/would act line a porn actress in bed. We may not be all that bright, but give us a little more credit than "they don't realize it's just acting". 

"They don't realize they are supposed to make a woman feel that way and if she's not doing those things, then she just doesn't enjoy sex and are not making it enjoyable for them because they're not making it enjoyable for her. They just want her to do it as if it's as simple as he enters and she's supposed to start screaming."

really??? we feel that right when we put it in, she's supposed to be in 7th heaven?....lol. grossly exaggerated your post


----------



## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Speaking as a man and past user I can say unequivocally- porn is bad for men and marriage. I feel the same about masturbation.

Along with my personal experience, I'll add that I think it's just morally wrong. I mean, there's extensive explanations by the church- I'd encourage you to read about it via the many great philosophers and theologians that have written on it.

Back on the personal side, it just feels good to be a bit jacked on your own testosterone. I feel stronger, a bit crazy, pumped up... always ready for that special moment with my wife. I try to keep my crazy body under control via hard work and vigorous exercise. It feels good to know that I am doing what I can to be faithful to my wife in mind and body. Sure, my eyes may drift when walking down the street but my brain engages and pulls them back where they belong. This is far lesser sin than if I'm purposefully clicking and stroking myself. I'm sure all the guys that hate my guts will remind me of all my other sins and I wholeheartedly agree. Pride and anger.... I'm working on it!!!


----------



## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

I think the greatest realization I had when giving up porn (religious reasons) was that not having any sex still sucked just as badly as it did before.


----------



## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

I'll also add that I don't know what I'd do if my wife hated sex or made me wait for weeks on end. That would be an impossibly difficult pill to swallow and I offer NO judgement or condemnation on that!


----------



## Satisfied Mind (Jan 29, 2019)

CatholicDad said:


> Speaking as a man and past user I can say unequivocally- porn is bad for men and marriage. I feel the same about masturbation.
> 
> Along with my personal experience, I'll add that I think it's just morally wrong. I mean, there's extensive explanations by the church- I'd encourage you to read about it via the many great philosophers and theologians that have written on it.
> 
> Back on the personal side, it just feels good to be a bit jacked on your own testosterone. I feel stronger, a bit crazy, pumped up... always ready for that special moment with my wife. I try to keep my crazy body under control via hard work and vigorous exercise. It feels good to know that I am doing what I can to faithful to my wife in mind and body. Sure, my eyes may drift when walking down the street but my brain engages and pulls them back where they belong. This is far lesser sin than if I'm purposefully clicking and stroking myself. I'm sure all the guys that hate my guts on hear will remind me of all my other sins and I wholeheartedly agree. Pride and anger.... I'm working on it!!!





CatholicDad said:


> I'll also add that I don't know what I'd do if my wife hated sex or made me wait for weeks on end. That would be an impossibly difficult pill to swallow and I offer NO judgement or condemnation on that!


Dude, this is probably the most human post from you that I've read here. Maybe this guy can stick around for awhile...


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

CatholicDad said:


> Speaking as a man and past user I can say unequivocally- porn is bad for men and marriage. I feel the same about masturbation.
> 
> Along with my personal experience, I'll add that I think it's just morally wrong. I mean, there's extensive explanations by the church- I'd encourage you to read about it via the many great philosophers and theologians that have written on it.
> 
> Back on the personal side, it just feels good to be a bit jacked on your own testosterone. I feel stronger, a bit crazy, pumped up... always ready for that special moment with my wife. I try to keep my crazy body under control via hard work and vigorous exercise. It feels good to know that I am doing what I can to be faithful to my wife in mind and body. Sure, my eyes may drift when walking down the street but my brain engages and pulls them back where they belong. This is far lesser sin than if I'm purposefully clicking and stroking myself. I'm sure all the guys that hate my guts will remind me of all my other sins and I wholeheartedly agree. Pride and anger.... I'm working on it!!!


Hey, I think you're doing great. I'm serious on that.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Diana7 said:


> uhtred said:
> 
> 
> > Don't most people fantasize when they masturbate?
> ...


Hahahahaha!


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

I really don’t understand the big deal about porn; some people use it, some people don’t.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

InMyPrime said:


> I really don’t understand the big deal about porn; some people use it, some people don’t.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Very astute observation.


----------



## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

InMyPrime said:


> I really don’t understand the big deal about porn; some people use it, some people don’t.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Really? That's quite a minimizing and quite simple (as in intelligence) statement.

Porn sometimes ruins relationships, if the dude is addicted and then has no sexual energy for his wife.

Some people view porn as cheating.

Blah blah blah the list goes on.

Some pretty important issues.


----------



## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

InMyPrime said:


> I really don’t understand the big deal about porn; some people use it, some people don’t.


It appears that Catholics believe masturbation is bad for marriage on its merits, which just happens to coincide with Catholic teaching on Onanism.

It appears that evangelicals oppose porn on the merits. They think masturbation is okay on its merits, so long as you don’t as don’t commit adultery in your heart by lusting after somebody other than your spouse. Their analysis of the merits just happens to coincide with evangelical interpretation of Biblical teaching.

I’m genuinely curious if avoiding porn, masturbating less and only to thoughts of my wife, will improve things. I’m going to try it and see. (I can’t cut out masturbation entirely because I don’t want to lay in bed awake all night with an erection, or have one popping up in my trousers while at work. I do agree with CatholicDad, though, that there is a certain perverse pleasure to being in that days-without-sex state.)


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Livvie said:


> Really? That's quite a minimizing and quite simple (as in intelligence) statement.



Sorry, I guess I am not as in intelligent 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

CraigBesuden said:


> I don’t want to lay in bed awake all night with an erection, or have one popping up in my trousers while at work.)



Yeah that usually doesn’t go down well...




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

InMyPrime said:


> Yeah that usually doesn’t go down well...


Sure it does, with a little masturbation...


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

uhtred said:


> True - but the may not work as well if you have a spouse with very limited sexual interest. Isn't it a bit rude to fantasize about your partner doing something you know that they hate?


No, they are your spouse.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Cletus said:


> Sure it does, with a little masturbation...


.... in your trousers at work? :surprise:


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

InMyPrime said:


> I really don’t understand the big deal about porn; some people use it, some people don’t.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It ruins lives and marriages.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Blondilocks said:


> I truly don't think either Diana7 or Girl_power gives a rat's patoot who's masturbating to porn and who isn't. They are only expressing their opinions.
> 
> I don't understand why some are taking their opinions so personally. It's ok if your opinion doesn't agree with their's. It's what makes the world go around (that and money).


Very true. I think that we all make choices in life. Mine is not to have porn in my marriage or life.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> .... in your trousers at work? :surprise:




Who the hell wears trousers to work? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> It ruins lives and marriages.



Who does?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Girl_power said:


> I am speaking for myself only. I do not think porn is good for anyone’s relationship period.


I agree. People are free to live as they like but porn generally is damaging.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> Very true. I think that we all make choices in life. Mine is not to have porn in my marriage or life.



Would you let your husband record you having sex on a camera for his ‘personal’ use?
There, you made porn. How difficult was that?
I can recommend good tripods...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> .... in your trousers at work? :surprise:


No, silly. You remove your trousers.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Cletus said:


> No, silly. You remove your trousers.


At work? :surprise:


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> At work? :surprise:


See above. THAT'S why telecommuting is so awesome.


----------



## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

InMyPrime said:


> Would you let your husband record you having sex on a camera for his ‘personal’ use?
> There, you made porn. How difficult was that?
> I can recommend good tripods...
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I think a professional boudoir photo shoot would be appropriate.


----------



## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

CatholicDad said:


> Speaking as a man and past user I can say unequivocally- porn is bad for men and marriage. I feel the same about masturbation.
> 
> Along with my personal experience, I'll add that I think it's just morally wrong. I mean, there's extensive explanations by the church- I'd encourage you to read about it via the many great philosophers and theologians that have written on it.
> 
> Back on the personal side, it just feels good to be a bit jacked on your own testosterone. I feel stronger, a bit crazy, pumped up... always ready for that special moment with my wife. I try to keep my crazy body under control via hard work and vigorous exercise. It feels good to know that I am doing what I can to be faithful to my wife in mind and body. Sure, my eyes may drift when walking down the street but my brain engages and pulls them back where they belong. This is far lesser sin than if I'm purposefully clicking and stroking myself. I'm sure all the guys that hate my guts will remind me of all my other sins and I wholeheartedly agree. Pride and anger.... I'm working on it!!!


Thank you for this post. Very well stated without all the hell fire, damnation, and judgement. Congratulations to you and Diana7 for trying y'all best to operate within the boundaries that work best for YOUR marriage.


----------



## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

I have a problem with porn if my husband is seeking porn rather than coming to me. I realize the male sex drive is 8-10 times higher than ours but when a man has a very willing partner and he does not even attempt an approach there is a problem there.


----------



## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

AVR1962 said:


> I have a problem with porn if my husband is seeking porn rather than coming to me. I realize the male sex drive is 8-10 times higher than ours but when a man has a very willing partner and he does not even attempt an approach there is a problem there.


It could be that he’s not attracted to you anymore, or he has a porn addiction, or he has embarrassing fetishes he’s unwilling to tell you about (or doesn’t want to do IRL).


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

AVR1962 said:


> I have a problem with porn if my husband is seeking porn rather than coming to me. I realize the male sex drive is 8-10 times higher than ours but when a man has a very willing partner and he does not even attempt an approach there is a problem there.




Is it what he is doing? Then this is a problem.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

CraigBesuden said:


> AVR1962 said:
> 
> 
> > I have a problem with porn if my husband is seeking porn rather than coming to me. I realize the male sex drive is 8-10 times higher than ours but when a man has a very willing partner and he does not even attempt an approach there is a problem there.
> ...


 If he is addicted to pornography that is a problem. If he has certain fetishes, that could be compromised, but depending on how far out there it is then no you should not be expected to participate necessarily. If he is no longer attracted to you, he needs to be honest about it. And if he married you when he wasn't attracted to you in the 1st place, then he is a Jack a** and I'm not sure what to tell you.


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

AVR1962 said:


> I have a problem with porn if my husband is seeking porn rather than coming to me. I realize the male sex drive is 8-10 times higher than ours but when a man has a very willing partner and he does not even attempt an approach there is a problem there.


And that quite nicely sums it up.

Kudos to you @AVR1962


----------



## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Cletus said:


> I like differences of opinion too, but I do have a chip on my shoulder for those who think that their opinion should apply to everyone, and who will invalidate anyone else's experience as wrong-headed when it conflicts with theirs. I guess that's on me.
> 
> And that is what's really at the heart of this topic, for me. I'm neither a porn addict nor a heavy user, but it has its place in some relationships. Platitudes of "you should find another way" are less than helpful and overtly patronizing. If it works for some, it works. Don't tell me that my marriage of 34 years is being run incorrectly. I have sacrificed a lot sexually to take my vows seriously. This is a small compromise to that end. It is, FOR ME, on balance a good thing.
> 
> I'm taking it personally because it is being delivered personally - the message is "you are wrong, and you are a bad husband". Not "you would be a bad husband for me", but in the universal for all spouses sense.


Please direct me to a post where someone says "Cletus, you are wrong and a bad husband". 

As the saying goes - if the glove don't fit, you must acquit.

I don't know if you're feeling somewhat guilty over the porn/masturbation or if you just like faking being offended.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Agreed.
I think some of the wide range of responses to this comes from people who have had very different experiences.

To me, choosing porn instead of sex with your spouse is a major problem, but watching porn when you are regularly turned down by your spouse is not. I view an active sex life as a generally expected part of marriage, and if one person denies that without good reason, that leaves the other free to find some other options (within some limits) 

Others of course disagree.







AVR1962 said:


> I have a problem with porn if my husband is seeking porn rather than coming to me. I realize the male sex drive is 8-10 times higher than ours but when a man has a very willing partner and he does not even attempt an approach there is a problem there.


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

uhtred said:


> Agreed.
> I think some of the wide range of responses to this comes from people who have had very different experiences.
> 
> To me, choosing porn instead of sex with your spouse is a major problem, *but watching porn when you are regularly turned down by your spouse is not.* I view an active sex life as a generally expected part of marriage, and if one person denies that without good reason, that leaves the other free to find some other options (within some limits)
> ...


There are two possible sides to that argument:

1) watching porn if you have been rejected is a problem. If you have been rejected because there is harbored resentment in the relationship, then porn may cause the person using to be oblivious to "why" a spouse is harboring resentment. Without porn the issue would be confronted, discussed, and hopefully solved. 

2) watching porn if you have been rejected is not a problem. If you have been rejected because your spouse has been overwhelmed and needs some personal space to decompress and unwind, then porn may be a tool to help manage that situation. The problem in this situation is that one person just needed some space. Porn does not escalate that particular problem so much so as it helps to disarm it.

Regards, 
Badsanta


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

There is also

3) rejected because your spouse does not and never did want much sex in general, and no change in your behavior will change that. 




badsanta said:


> There are two possible sides to that argument:
> 
> 1) watching porn if you have been rejected is a problem. If you have been rejected because there is harbored resentment in the relationship, then porn may cause the person using to be oblivious to "why" a spouse is harboring resentment. Without porn the issue would be confronted, discussed, and hopefully solved.
> 
> ...


----------



## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

CraigBesuden said:


> InMyPrime said:
> 
> 
> > I really don’t understand the big deal about porn; some people use it, some people don’t.
> ...


It will make your marriage better. I guarantee it. You might have a wet dream every now and then and occasionally, partly insane- but God is never outdone in generosity. You give to Him and he gives back. Your fitness level will go up. You'll require more workouts to keep yourself under control. Best yet, when you haven't synched up with wifey after a week or two and you catch her.. you'll knock her socks off with your raised level of passion for her. You'll understand why males of many species will fight to the death for mating rights lol!!

Porn and masturbation just dull a man's senses... That's all. Of course, I fully believe that there are probably eternal consequences too... Especially for men that don't love and cherish their wives like they should. No one's perfect, but men sure shouldn't let porn dull their attraction and attention for their wife!


----------



## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

personofinterest said:


> Honestly, I have mixed feelings. The answer I am supposed to have as a card-carrying member of X church is that it is lust. It is committing adultery in one's heart. All that.
> 
> Basically, though, taking religion out of it completely - because most people who defend porn are NOT really all that religious - not really....
> 
> ...


Supernatural. It's Dean's go-to!


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Fozzy, you must be an awesome person if you know Dean.


----------



## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

StarFires said:


> I never had a problem with porn except that it objectifies women, teaches men to disrespect women, and is not an accurate depiction of sexual relations. Too many guys expect from their woman what they see and hear in the porn videos. Since they don't realize it's just acting, they expect a woman to moan and groan, hoop and holler, and give him the idea that she's enjoying it and he's a major stud just because he's having sex with her.


I've known plenty of women who would moan and groan, hoop and holler...


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Theseus said:


> I've known plenty of women who would moan and groan, hoop and holler...




Well, according to the ineternets, females that have sex with you, moan in order to attract other, stronger males, with better sperm after you are done, when you can hardly move.

So next time you pat yourself on the back for making her moan extra loudly, don’t forget that wimmins are never actually satisfied and are in fact dissatisfied with the quality of the sperm received, if they moan.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

InMyPrime said:


> Well, according to the ineternets, females that have sex with you, moan in order to attract other, stronger males, with better sperm after you are done, when you can hardly move.



And of course you all also object to romance novels, right? With their unrealistic depictions of men. 

Where all men are over 6 feet tall, have a full head of hair, are wealthy, walk around with their shirts off, and have names like "Brick" or "Steele"...


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Theseus said:


> InMyPrime said:
> 
> 
> > Well, according to the ineternets, females that have sex with you, moan in order to attract other, stronger males, with better sperm after you are done, when you can hardly move.
> ...


Excellent point, any woman who opposes porn had better not own a single bodice ripper.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

CatholicDad said:


> It will make your marriage better. I guarantee it. You might have a wet dream every now and then and occasionally, partly insane- *but God is never outdone in generosity. You give to Him and he gives back. *Your fitness level will go up. You'll require more workouts to keep yourself under control. Best yet, when you haven't synched up with wifey after a week or two and you catch her.. you'll knock her socks off with your raised level of passion for her. You'll understand why males of many species will fight to the death for mating rights lol!!
> 
> Porn and masturbation just dull a man's senses... That's all. Of course, I fully believe that there are probably eternal consequences too... Especially for men that don't love and cherish their wives like they should. No one's perfect, but men sure shouldn't let porn dull their attraction and attention for their wife!


C'mon man. The world is full of pious men giving their all to God and getting sexless marriages in return. You make some good points about the benes of putting all of your energy into your wife... good points when your wife is receptive to such attention.... but far too many aren't and God ain't doin' **** about it.


----------



## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

CatholicDad said:


> Porn and masturbation just dull a man's senses... That's all. Of course,


If you mean masturbating to porn, I agree. 

I liken it to smoking. You may not get lung cancer, only one in ten does, but sure as ****, you're doing some kind of damage. You may live to a 101 and wreck your Harley on the turnpike, but when they cut open your lungs, it'll be ugly. 

If you include masturbation for relief, without any other sin attached, that is a fine personal belief to hold, but it's not Biblical. It's called ''white space theology'' because it's found in the areas of the Bible between words and chapters (ie. it's not there).




CatholicDad said:


> I fully believe that there are probably eternal consequences too...


I agree, if you mean masturbating to porn, but the death of Jesus on the cross paid for the sins of His sheep. For those outside of Christ, whether sinning by masturbating to porn or any other sin, yes, eternal consequences of a nasty kind.

On a side note, Onanism has zero to do with masturbation.


----------



## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> CatholicDad said:
> 
> 
> > It will make your marriage better. I guarantee it. You might have a wet dream every now and then and occasionally, partly insane- *but God is never outdone in generosity. You give to Him and he gives back. *Your fitness level will go up. You'll require more workouts to keep yourself under control. Best yet, when you haven't synched up with wifey after a week or two and you catch her.. you'll knock her socks off with your raised level of passion for her. You'll understand why males of many species will fight to the death for mating rights lol!!
> ...


Pious men like that deserve, and probably get a heavenly reward. Blessed are the poor in spirit. I can't imagine how crushing that would be to a man's spirit.


----------



## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

OnTheFly said:


> CatholicDad said:
> 
> 
> > Porn and masturbation just dull a man's senses... That's all. Of course,
> ...


I guess you make your own conclusions about scripture... You don't need theologians or philosophers like Thomas Aquinas or St. Augustine to explain it. And sacred tradition passed down by the first Christians means nothing. I'm sure they were all masturbating when not being burned alive or fed to lions.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

OnTheFly said:


> On a side note, Onanism has zero to do with masturbation.



What does it have to do with?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Spurdo (Jul 13, 2019)

I oppose porn because of its drug like addictive qualities. Your start requiring ever more 'eccentric' stimuli to achieve the same high. It might not have been such a big deal before the age of the internet, but the availability and amount of any conceivable fetish material puts users on a fast track to depravity. Whats worse is the ability for children, who don't understand the addictive nature of internet porn, to have unfettered access it. I got into it at 14, ruined my love life well into my 20s.

There's also the issue of partners having issues with porn use. Some women feel that lusting after other women is a violation of your relationship. I can't say I blame them for holding that opinion. Previously I used the excuse that it didn't matter that I was lusting after other women because I didn't know them or have access to them. Of course if I did actually have access to them, it would be completely unacceptable. So if we think about it like a kind of math equation: access + lust = unacceptable. I obviously can't avoid women, so I now feel that it is a more mature and moral stance to temper my lust.

That's my 2 cents, hope it makes sense.


----------



## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

OnTheFly said:


> If you mean masturbating to porn, I agree.
> 
> *I liken it to smoking. You may not get lung cancer, only one in ten does, but sure as ****, you're doing some kind of damage. You may live to a 101 and wreck your Harley on the turnpike, but when they cut open your lungs, it'll be ugly. *
> 
> ...


Not sure smokers would consider that to be a persuasive argument to quit. >


----------



## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

Catholics believe Onan sinned because he spilled his seed outside of a woman, which would mean that masturbation is wrong. Evangelicals believe Onan sinned because he pulled out to disobey God’s command to impregnate the woman, so it has no bearing on masturbation.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

CatholicDad said:


> Pious men like that deserve, and probably get a heavenly reward. Blessed are the poor in spirit. I can't imagine how crushing that would be to a man's spirit.


Typical. 
You talk about all the immediate benefits of making a moral choice. Then when faced with the fact that it ain't necessarily so. You fall back on the unprovable eternal benefits. 

At least have the intellectual integrity to admit that the up front part is anything but certain.


----------



## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

InMyPrime said:


> What does it have to do with?
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Onan's sin was not providing an heir for his dead brothers wife. It was customary back in the day (and apparently punishable by death by God), if your brother died childless, the next available brother would marry the widow (oh no, polygamy!) and produce an heir to inherit the dead husbands land possessions. Onan didn't mind marrying and banging the widow, but he wanted the land inheritance, so he pulled out before ejaculation. God said ''nope''.

How anyone can come to the conclusion that this has to do with masturbation is beyond me.


----------



## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

CraigBesuden said:


> Catholics believe Onan sinned because he spilled his seed outside of a woman, which would mean that masturbation is wrong. Evangelicals believe Onan sinned because he pulled out to disobey God’s command to impregnate the woman, so it has no bearing on masturbation.


It's funny, because the reason is given in the text. There's no wiggle room for personal interpretation.


----------



## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

CatholicDad said:


> I guess you make your own conclusions about scripture... You don't need theologians or philosophers like Thomas Aquinas or St. Augustine to explain it. And sacred tradition passed down by the first Christians means nothing. I'm sure they were all masturbating when not being burned alive or fed to lions.


No, I don't need Aquinas or Augustine. If what they said comports with Scripture, then it's just a repeat of what I already have, if what they say doesn't not comport with Scripture, it's of no authority.

Same with sacred tradition. A definition of tradition is error grown old.

Did my post above, where I agreed masturbating to porn was damaging, somehow infer I think the early Christians were jerking it during times of persecution?? 

Is this the level of your argumentation? 

Let me reiterate, and be more clear.

Masturbating to porn as a sin is incredibly damaging, not only to yourself, but your spouse, and your relationship to God.

If you couple a non sinful activity with sin, it becomes a giant ball of sin.

It was not sinful for Onan to have sex with Tamar, it was good, When he brought his evil intentions into the mix, it was the end of him. 

If you want to personally abstain from masturbating without sin, that is your scruple, it's not a prohibition from Scripture (my only authority, and hence why I'm not a catholic).


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

OnTheFly said:


> If you want to personally abstain from masturbating without sin, that is your scruple, it's not a prohibition from Scripture (my only authority, and hence why I'm not a catholic).


:thumbup:


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

OnTheFly said:


> Onan's sin was not providing an heir for his dead brothers wife. It was customary back in the day (and apparently punishable by death by God), if your brother died childless, the next available brother would marry the widow (oh no, polygamy!) and produce an heir to inherit the dead husbands land possessions. Onan didn't mind marrying and banging the widow, but he wanted the land inheritance, so he pulled out before ejaculation. God said ''nope''.
> 
> 
> 
> How anyone can come to the conclusion that this has to do with masturbation is beyond me.



I don’t know either but onanism is a synonym for masturbation


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

onthefly said:


> inmyprime said:
> 
> 
> > what does it have to do with?
> ...


thank you


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> OnTheFly said:
> 
> 
> > If you want to personally abstain from masturbating without sin, that is your scruple, it's not a prohibition from Scripture (my only authority, and hence why I'm not a catholic).
> ...


Yep


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Porn and Fornication make the mind lazy. If your goal in life is poon, then you are a slave to your genitals. PUAs and Incels are basically the same thing at polar ends. If your goal in life is not to scratch every itch, you are a glutton with no discipline. Might as well return to the trees with your ancestors.

There are far better ways to better yourself as a human being.


----------



## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

InMyPrime said:


> I don’t know either but onanism is a synonym for masturbation
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It is...but without Biblical merit.

If I described a leprechaun as a four legged, black and white striped horselike creature that roams the Serengeti, I'd be doing so without merit. Spanning the chasm between the sin of Onan and masturbation is a leap even Carl Lewis can't accomplish.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

OnTheFly said:


> InMyPrime said:
> 
> 
> > What does it have to do with?
> ...


Its simply interpretation. Was God displeased that he disobeyed Judah, that he was selfish/greedy to gain the lands himself, or because that he pulled out and wasted perfect good semen meant to procreate (akin to masturbation). Maybe its a combo of all three. Moral of the story: masturbate at your own risk.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

OnTheFly said:


> Onan's sin was not providing an heir for his dead brothers wife. It was customary back in the day (and apparently punishable by death by God), if your brother died childless, the next available brother would marry the widow (oh no, polygamy!) and produce an heir to inherit the dead husbands land possessions. Onan didn't mind marrying and banging the widow, but he wanted the land inheritance, so he pulled out before ejaculation. God said ''nope''.
> 
> 
> 
> How anyone can come to the conclusion that this has to do with masturbation is beyond me.




I was trying to look up what bible says about masturbation, and it doesn’t seem to prohibit it.
But for some reason, everything becomes clean by the evening. And taking a bath seems like a cure for all....











Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Its simply interpretation. Was God displeased that he disobeyed Judah, that he was selfish/greedy to gain the lands himself, or because that he pulled out and wasted perfect good semen meant to procreate (akin to masturbation). Maybe its a combo of all three. Moral of the story: masturbate at your own risk.




I think maybe it’s to do with God being concerned ‘wasting’ seed for no reason. Which must include masturbation?
I am more concerned why his dead brother’s wife didn’t catch on and continued to have him screw her without filling her up with his ‘precious’ semen. I imagine the conversations: “tonight I definitely am going to finish in you, I promise!”
So controlling was God...It seems he mellowed a lot when he got himself his own child. The saying that children will change you forever must be true...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## jennymurdock (Jul 13, 2019)

There are some great answers and comments on this subject! I doubt I can make any original observation, but-

To answer the original question, I oppose my DH using porn so much because:

it makes me feel like he doesn't want me, he wants some other women instead. Like if he was "allowed", he'd have a harem of double D Sports Illustrated nymphomaniacs at his beck and call all night long. 

It makes me feel like I don't matter, like I'm second rate or second choice. That I don't give him "enough" sex. While we don't have sex as much as we did when we were first married, we still do, especially when he wants it (like after viewing porn apparently). But, he was whacking off to porn when we were doing it 3 times a day. 

It makes me feel like if he was allowed to, he'd cheat on me. He's already cheating on me in his mind, he's just too much of a coward or too lazy to actually go out and do it in real life.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

jennymurdock said:


> There are some great answers and comments on this subject! I doubt I can make any original observation, but-
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hmmm....don’t understand why there’s this misconception that anyone actually wants to sleep with these women...I really do t think most men imagine having sex with shy of them. They imagine the situations and that’s the thing that is arousing.
This paranoia about porn seems almost...a control thing. Women complain so much about men wanting to ‘control’ their sexuality but with porn, women seem to be doing the same.
Today, after a particularly nice BJ in the outdoors, I asked wife why she often doesn’t want me to reciprocate or why it is ok for her with just giving on occasion. She says she feels much calmer, physically, when she knows that SHE is the one responsible for my orgasms...i was thinking inside: wtf, but fair enough. It’s like she’s a mirror reflection of all my sexual urges: if I’m horny, she will be on edge until I am relieved and then suddenly be all calm, when I’m not, even though she didn’t have one. So weird.
I will never understand how wimmins think...
Or why...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## jennymurdock (Jul 13, 2019)

InMyPrime said:


> Hmmm....don’t understand why there’s this misconception that anyone actually wants to sleep with these women...I really do t think most men imagine having sex with shy of them. They imagine the situations and that’s the thing that is arousing.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


So, they don't want to really screw them, yet they want to _imagine_ they're screwing them, so when they're playing with their baloney pony, orgasming and looking at a picture of Theresa the Titanic Titty Monster, but they would "turn down" a chance to do the real thing. Maybe. 
So they want to do a "let's pretend" scenario? Sort of smell a nice juicy steak but don't ever eat it? Possible I guess, but it still makes them cheat in their minds and hearts. I know my DH wouldn't like it if I started gawking at some nice looking guys if we were out in public.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

jennymurdock said:


> So, they don't want to really screw them, yet they want to _imagine_ they're screwing them, so when they're playing with their baloney pony, orgasming and looking at a picture of Theresa the Titanic Titty Monster, but they would "turn down" a chance to do the real thing. Maybe.
> So they want to do a "let's pretend" scenario? Sort of smell a nice juicy steak but don't ever eat it? Possible I guess, but it still makes them cheat in their minds and hearts. I know my DH wouldn't like it if I started gawking at some nice looking guys if we were out in public.


No no no...no wonder there's this misunderstanding.
So lets say you are a man...Ok, forget that....

Let's say your brain is unable to imagine things very well; like you had zero imagination and to imagine anything at all, you'd need to see it on a picture or video because your brain is basically a bit...I don't know, retarded maybe, compared to a woman's brain, in that respect.

So instead of imagining having sex in a forest with a bunch of midgets and leprechauns observing you (because you can't), you watch someone else do that. *Who* they have sex with is totally irrelevant!
That's why I prefer prefer faceless porn. Or if there's a face shown by mistake, I don't usually notice it. It's very very impersonal...
But..I don't want to come off as a massive porn apologist because I haven't really watched it myself for a few years now. But that's only because my wife is kind enough to supply all the midgets and leprechauns herself. (yay)

You are looking at it from the female reference point of view: see, if you were reading a novel or watching porn with Jason Momoa or whoever, you'd be imagining actually making love to him. Or how it would feel like making love to HIM. We don't really do that. Most of us still hold our wives and sex with our wives as the highest form of pleasure. If you know this, you will know that porn can't really be a threat in any way.
Some people do seem to get addicted to it and they use it as a substitute for their wives. But most men don't. It's just a way to speed up the whole process. Who has the luxury of spending more than 5 minutes jerking off? We have actual stuff to take care of; like explaining online what porn means to a man.
Please excuse me for 5 minutes...


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

jennymurdock said:


> There are some great answers and comments on this subject! I doubt I can make any original observation, but-
> 
> To answer the original question, I oppose my DH using porn so much because:
> 
> ...


I agree with all your points, but why do you put up with it?


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

InMyPrime said:


> I think maybe it’s to do with God being concerned ‘wasting’ seed for no reason. Which must include masturbation?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I always thought this interpretation was even more ludicrous than all the others. There are 200million - 500million sperm in each ejaculation. That means even when there's conception 199-499 MILLION sperm are going to waste. 

To say that tossing one off is a sin because it wastes precious seed defies all logic.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I always thought this interpretation was even more ludicrous than all the others. There are 200million - 500million sperm in each ejaculation. That means even when there's conception 199-499 MILLION sperm are going to waste.
> 
> To say that tossing one off is a sin because it wastes precious seed defies all logic.


I am not sure they counted them all that religiously back then...

To be fair, I do sometimes feel instinctively a bit strange and uncomfortable about the genocide caused with every ejaculation. But there's absolutely no logic, you are right.
The only thing that keeps me going is the thought that since they will probably die on the inside anyway, they might as well get some fresh air first. 
Now, anal - that's a hole other story and more difficult to justify...


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

jennymurdock said:


> There are some great answers and comments on this subject! I doubt I can make any original observation, but-
> 
> To answer the original question, I oppose my DH using porn so much because:
> 
> ...


I am not defending porn by any means, but many men use porn as women might use a romance novel or a vibrator. It is a stimulant and a rather powerful one at that. 

Compared to a vibrator, there are men that will feel emasculated to discover that a wife is using one and that it can pleasure her in ways that they can not do naturally. Then you have couples that incorporate a vibrator into their routines just as you have couples that include porn. Everyone is different and everyone has different feelings. There are some people into role play and there are others that are extremely offended by a partner asking them to pretend to be someone else in order to get off. 

In my opinion one of the biggest problems with porn is that it overshadows some of the real underlying problems that often need to be addressed. Like insecurities, lack of trust, lack of communication, and lack of patience to argue constructively. 

So when you talk to your husband about porn, approach it first just as a basic conversation about trust and communication. If he is hiding his browser history or is afraid to talk to you about things when you ask a simple question about his porn use, then he needs to be aware that doing so seriously erodes trust and communication in the marriage. And without that there is really not much of a relationship. 

Regards, 
Badsanta


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I think it depends on the situation. 

If it makes you a "second choice", eg he watches porn instead of having sex with you - then I agree 100% That is completely unacceptable. 

OTOH what if he wants a lot more sex than you are happy to do? People vary. Maybe you are comfortable with a maximum of twice a week an he really wants something daily. In that case is porn harmful as a masturbation aid on days when you don't want sex?

Peoples needs / desires for sex vary a lot. It seems to me that porn helps fill the gap for the person who desires but cannot have more. If it replaces sex, that is a whole different thing. 








jennymurdock said:


> There are some great answers and comments on this subject! I doubt I can make any original observation, but-
> 
> To answer the original question, I oppose my DH using porn so much because:
> 
> ...


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> There are far better ways to better yourself as a human being.


For instance, you could spend your time pointing out the moral failings of others on the internet.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I always thought this interpretation was even more ludicrous than all the others. There are 200million - 500million sperm in each ejaculation. That means even when there's conception 199-499 MILLION sperm are going to waste.
> 
> 
> 
> To say that tossing one off is a sin because it wastes precious seed defies all logic.


Sorry, someone had to do it...

A truly great Catholic dad. Medical experiments for the lot of you.






Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Cletus said:


> Sorry, someone had to do it...
> 
> A truly great Catholic dad. Medical experiments for the lot of you.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


Thanks,
I had meant to hunt down that one myself. Classic!


----------



## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Let's not forget that there is the risk of going blind and getting hairy palms as well.


----------



## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Personal said:


> Let's not forget that there is the risk of going blind and getting hairy palms as well.


A hairy palm named Rosie. Kinda like a boy named Sue.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Cletus said:


> UpsideDownWorld11 said:
> 
> 
> > There are far better ways to better yourself as a human being.
> ...


Not moral failings... intellectual/innovative failings. Cleaning the valves makes men lazy. You need that stuff to do great things. Freud said 'all energy is sexual' for that reason. Remember that Seinfeld episode?


----------



## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

StarFires said:


> I never had a problem with porn except that it objectifies women, teaches men to disrespect women, and is not an accurate depiction of sexual relations. Too many guys expect from their woman what they see and hear in the porn videos. Since they don't realize it's just acting, they expect a woman to moan and groan, hoop and holler, and give him the idea that she's enjoying it and he's a major stud just because he's having sex with her. I've seen a lot of guys on this forum and other forums complain that their wife/SO doesn't do that stuff and doesn't enjoy sex, so they wish she would because it would be more enjoyable for them and would make them feel they are pleasing her. They don't realize they are supposed to make a woman feel that way and if she's not doing those things, then she just doesn't enjoy sex and are not making it enjoyable for them because they're not making it enjoyable for her. They just want her to do it as if it's as simple as he enters and she's supposed to start screaming. So, my only complaint with porn is it gives men false expectations and the wrong ideas.
> 
> Lots of women feel betrayed by their man turning to porn, but that has nothing to do with them feeling like he's cheating on them. Out of their own false idea of men's desire, they have an expectation that their man will turn to them for his needs. They don't realize his needs and his desire for her are mutually exclusive. And in some cases, she's just regularly and conveniently accessible.
> 
> But, I have to say lots of other women are correct in that it is cheating if porn is used just because men like seeing it. That's what makes it a moral (or religious) issue because Christian Bibles teach us we're not supposed to enjoy the wrong doing of others, and participating in pornography is morally wrong. So, if it's used as a tool or means to an end, that's one thing (and still morally wrong, but....), but if it's something that is used for enjoyment and lust is the result of watching it, then I can understand the women who feel it's cheating.


*So what say you about all of those lustful, lascivious women who privately use porn to "get off" on viewing all of those "Johnny's?" *


----------



## Katiex (Jul 13, 2019)

I oppose porn because it may be an abuse of the participants. They may not all be paid professionals. It also turns sex into a transaction like prostitution. It has nothing to do with a loving relationship.


----------



## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Katiex said:


> I oppose porn because it may be an abuse of the participants. They may not all be paid professionals. It also turns sex into a transaction like prostitution. It has nothing to do with a loving relationship.


My wife and I have posted some of our home made amateur pornography featuring us (shot with professional photography equipment and a phone camera) online, to a website where sharing such content is a thing.

In our case there has been no abuse, it has all been consensual, we both have veto over what is posted and have agreed to post some of it.

Neither of us have got paid for it, nor are we wanting payment for the content we have shared. It also hasn't been transactional, and there is no prostitution involved either.

For us it has been something we have chosen to do, as part of our loving relationship. Having been happily married through 20 years and having been sexual partners through 23 years as well.

At the end of the day if we didn't share some of it, we would find it much harder to make people grow hairy palms and go blind as well. :wink2:


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Katiex said:


> I oppose porn because it may be an abuse of the participants. They may not all be paid professionals. It also turns sex into a transaction like prostitution. It has nothing to do with a loving relationship.





Personal said:


> My wife and I have posted some of our home made amateur pornography featuring us (shot with professional photography equipment and a phone camera) online, to a website where sharing such content is a thing.
> 
> In our case there has been no abuse, it has all been consensual, we both have veto over what is posted and have agreed to post some of it.
> 
> ...


 @Personal if you had to guess as to what percentage of mainstream explicit content on popular sites is voluntarily produced by loving couples compared to similar professional content produced for profit... what would your guess be. 

I would say less than 1%. My reasoning is that most couples also perform on webcams for money or produce premium paid content and professionals produce an overwhelming amount of content to look as if it was done by amateurs in a loving relationship (even though the actors were paid). 

Regards, 
Badsanta


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I think real homemade stuff is not that rare - the internet is a great way for exhibitionists and voyeurs to find each other. :smile2:

There is a lot of semi-professional stuff - individuals or couples who post videos for money, or cam for money. I don't really seem the harm in that. 

High end porn stars are well paid. 

There is some abusive porn but I think it is a shrinking percentage due to the huge amount of voluntarially produced content availabe. 





badsanta said:


> @Personal if you had to guess as to what percentage of mainstream explicit content on popular sites is voluntarily produced by loving couples compared to similar professional content produced for profit... what would your guess be.
> 
> I would say less than 1%. My reasoning is that most couples also perform on webcams for money or produce premium paid content and professionals produce an overwhelming amount of content to look as if it was done by amateurs in a loving relationship (even though the actors were paid).
> 
> ...


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

uhtred said:


> I think real homemade stuff is not that rare - the internet is a great way for exhibitionists and voyeurs to find each other. :smile2:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah we make porn all the time, voluntarily. It’s fun. Though we don’t upload it anywhere. I wouldn’t know where to anyway. 
Though I have to be careful. Sometimes I send photos from family holidays to parents in law and relatives etc and it happened few times that an occasional tit or ass photo was included by mistake..
All water under the bridge. They sometimes send me a couple of nudes back, just to be even. 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Yeah, think its best to keep private photos in a completely separate place - maybe an unmounted disk or something. 

Some people get off on imagining other people watching them - its not a very rare kink, and there are so many people and its so easy to create videos that there is lots of content.

All good fun as long as everyone is consenting. 



InMyPrime said:


> Yeah we make porn all the time, voluntarily. It’s fun. Though we don’t upload it anywhere. I wouldn’t know where to anyway.
> Though I have to be careful. Sometimes I send photos from family holidays to parents in law and relatives etc and it happened few times that an occasional tit or ass photo was included by mistake..
> All water under the bridge. They sometimes send me a couple of nudes back, just to be even.
> 
> ...


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

uhtred said:


> Yeah, think its best to keep private photos in a completely separate place - maybe an unmounted disk or something.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



There’s lots of amateur porn out there, even though everyone thinks theirs is ‘special’...
A close friend was going out with a celebrity and his laptop got stolen. All their private photos ended up on various porn sites. This was a story for about a day or two and after that, nobody cared. This was 10-15 years ago.
Nowadays, I doubt anyone will care even for a day. Especially not about regular people, never mind celebrities.

I am mostly concerned about kids looking through our stuff. They are still too small but eventually will get nosey and even when the little one flips through iPhone and sometimes asks ‘why has daddy forgot to put his pants again in this movie?’ it’s very irresponsible of us...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

badsanta said:


> @Personal if you had to guess as to what percentage of mainstream explicit content on popular sites is voluntarily produced by loving couples compared to similar professional content produced for profit... what would your guess be.


I have no idea what percentage it is. Plus since I have no clue what it is, guessing seems pretty pointless to me.


----------



## FloridaOranges (Apr 30, 2019)

Porn is like alcohol or marijuana, in small doses it could be harmless, but for some people it could lead to bad things.

Personally I'm very visual, and have a very vivid imagination, so the images of pornography stick in my mind and psyche to a degree I am not comfortable with. 

So for me it's best to stay away from it. For others, it may be no big deal.


----------



## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

Well, this thread has completed it's inevitable arc.


----------



## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

OnTheFly said:


> Well, this thread has completed it's inevitable arc.


It has shot its wad.


----------



## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

I think all the "Onanism", "seed wasting", and biblical arguments are not needed.

It just seems like common sense that our ability to procreate is sacred. I mean it is a gift from God, or Mother Nature or whatever you believe. Reducing this to a personal act of entertainment such as masturbation is- just seems wrong from a purely philosophical standpoint!

I think also though if you take the Bible in it's entirety you'd arrive at the same conclusion.... Masturbation is wrong.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

CatholicDad said:


> I think all the "Onanism", "seed wasting", and biblical arguments are not needed.
> 
> It just seems like common sense that our ability to procreate is sacred. I mean it is a gift from God, or Mother Nature or whatever you believe. Reducing this to a personal act of entertainment such as masturbation is- just seems wrong from a purely philosophical standpoint!
> 
> I think also though if you take the Bible in it's entirety you'd arrive at the same conclusion.... Masturbation is wrong.



CD I am a Christian of many years, and I cant see anywhere in the Bible that forbids masturbation as long as
things like porn are not involved.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

CatholicDad said:


> I think all the "Onanism", "seed wasting", and biblical arguments are not needed.
> 
> It just seems like common sense that our ability to procreate is sacred. I mean it is a gift from God, or Mother Nature or whatever you believe. Reducing this to a personal act of entertainment such as masturbation is- just seems wrong from a purely philosophical standpoint!
> 
> I think also though if you take the Bible in it's entirety you'd arrive at the same conclusion.... Masturbation is wrong.



Your logic is backwards. The ability to procreate is inherent in ALL living things. Most living things put no thought into it whatsoever, and there is no actual pleasure function associated with it. They do it, they go their own ways and they live their lives until the mindless, uncontrollable instinct compels them to do it again, again without thought, pleasure (at least as we know it) or emotional bonding. It's just biology, nothing more.

But with us humans, the "gift" is the additional pleasure and for most, the bonding, that comes with it. The gift is that that pleasure is available not just once a year or when we come into heat, but at any time. That we can enjoy that pleasure, and that that pleasure is actually healthy, even when we're not looking to procreate. 

The ability to procreate may or may not be sacred, but even if it is, that in no way implies that sex aside from procreation is a base act not worthy of human participation and exploration. 

You might want to do some reading. There are many highly respected Christian books on the topic, and aside from notes in a few purely dogmatic puritanical treatises, they all praise non-procreative sex, as well as procreative sex, within marriage. No respected Christian author in the modern world limits sex to procreation... and that usually includes masturbation, so long as it does not deprive the spouse or involve extramarital stimuli. 

Ironic to your wording and use of the word "gift" in relation to procreative sex, the most celebrated and respected book on the topic is actually entitled "The Gift of Sex: A Guide to Sexual Fulfillment" by Clifford L. Penner.


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Diana7 said:


> CD I am a Christian of many years, and I cant see anywhere in the Bible that forbids masturbation as long as
> things like porn are not involved.


The Catholic religion views masturbation as a sin because it is an act of selfishness. This is a viewpoint that is not taken directly from the bible but indirectly as a sum of moral guidelines for behavior.


----------



## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

badsanta said:


> The Catholic religion views masturbation as a sin because it is an act of selfishness. This is a viewpoint that is not taken directly from the bible but indirectly as a sum of moral guidelines for behavior.




Protestants follow the Bible. Catholics follow the pope.


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Girl_power said:


> badsanta said:
> 
> 
> > The Catholic religion views masturbation as a sin because it is an act of selfishness. This is a viewpoint that is not taken directly from the bible but indirectly as a sum of moral guidelines for behavior.
> ...


Bazinga

And yep, pretty much


----------



## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

Doesn’t the Bible say that:

- Divorce is impermissible (you are still married in God’s eyes to your first spouse and you are committing adultery with your new “spouse”)?

- The man is the head of the wife (not complementarian) ?

- Women should be silent in church and not teach?

- Women should wear a hard covering to symbolize their servitude (and because of the angels)

The collective, fleshly desires of the churchgoers determine how the Bible is (mis)interpreted. It changes with the times. Porn may be accepted one day as looking at images, not lusting after a physical woman.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Unfortunately its possible to use the bible to support a very wide range of ideas, some of them quite horrific. ("clearly this line means....") 



CraigBesuden said:


> Doesn’t the Bible say that:
> 
> - Divorce is impermissible (you are still married in God’s eyes to your first spouse and you are committing adultery with your new “spouse”)?
> 
> ...


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Is this a religious discussion where sin is the topic? That can be quickly summed up. 
All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. 
Christ died for our sins and salvation.

True Christian living is joyous, fun, and fulfilling, and promotes love, a spirit of thankfulness, appreciation, togetherness, and respect for each other. 

What else do you need to know, if one is searching to truly find God?

Just because the religious legalese droning on and on ad nauseam by those that don't believe, is a bit tiring. 

Really, get over yourselves or dig deeper to find the reality of God. 

This is my view, all are certainly entitled to their own personal views.

But really, say something that hasn't been said before if persisting.


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

CraigBesuden said:


> The collective, fleshly desires of the churchgoers determine how the Bible is (mis)interpreted. It changes with the times. *Porn may be accepted one day as looking at images, not lusting after a physical woman.*


So when my college roommate became online friends with some porn-stars that would tour and perform at various clubs, he learned that they often got lonely while traveling and they actually would take him up on his offer to crash in his dorm room bed for the weekend. 

I just forgot what I was going to say! I miss my old roommate now.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

CatholicDad said:


> I think all the "Onanism", "seed wasting", and biblical arguments are not needed.
> 
> It just seems like common sense that our ability to procreate is sacred. I mean it is a gift from God, or Mother Nature or whatever you believe. Reducing this to a personal act of entertainment such as masturbation is- just seems wrong from a purely philosophical standpoint!
> 
> I think also though if you take the Bible in it's entirety you'd arrive at the same conclusion.... Masturbation is wrong.


Hmmmm. Christian, theologian and even ordained here and I disagree.

I masturbate pretty much every day because Mrs. C can't physically take everything my drive can give.

We are also well past child conception.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

badsanta said:


> The Catholic religion views masturbation as a sin because it is an act of selfishness. This is a viewpoint that is not taken directly from the bible but indirectly as a sum of moral guidelines for behavior.


They also forbid certain people to marry which is absolutely blasphemous teaching.

They also allow the Poop to change or alter doctrine already established by God.

I will pass. The Poop isn't God or even an intermediary. Jesus is. The Poop looks mighty funny in his hat and pretty curtains he wears as clothes though.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

CraigBesuden said:


> Doesn’t the Bible say that:
> 
> - Divorce is impermissible (you are still married in God’s eyes to your first spouse and you are committing adultery with your new “spouse”)?
> 
> ...


You're partially wrong on what it says and way off base about meaning and implementation.

No, watching prostitutes or motivated amateurs bang each other will always be a sin.

My opinion about CG and cartoons is still being debated by my internal jury. I can't find anything immediately against scripture in it.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

CraigBesuden said:


> Doesn’t the Bible say that:
> 
> - Divorce is impermissible (you are still married in God’s eyes to your first spouse and you are committing adultery with your new “spouse”)?
> 
> ...


I doubt that porn will be accepted
Jesus made it very clear what lusting after other women is.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> I doubt that porn will be accepted
> 
> Jesus made it very clear what lusting after other women is.



And if you are NOT lusting after women when you watch porn? Maybe we should let Jesus decide what ‘lusting after women’ actually means instead of deciding for him?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

ConanHub said:


> Hmmmm. Christian, theologian and even ordained here and I disagree.
> 
> I masturbate pretty much every day because Mrs. C can't physically take everything my drive can give.
> 
> We are also well past child conception.


Same here, Christian, even ordained.

Nothing new is being brought forth here. 

Nonbelievers trying "to catch" the bible in contradictions by quoting bits and pieces to support their non belief isn't new.

Those that do dig deeper in historical documents religious, scientific, and historical with open minds; many many times end up as believers. 

Better watch out 😎😎😎


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Sorry


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

personofinterest said:


> But wait, didn't you hear the news? If you don't believe in God that automatically raises your IQ by 25 points! If you're an obnoxious jerk about it, it raises your IQ40 points!



IQ is overrated. Jesus said.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

InMyPrime said:


> And if you are NOT lusting after women when you watch porn? Maybe we should let Jesus decide what ‘lusting after women’ actually means instead of deciding for him?


Diana7 is right, the Biblical definition of lust is clearly laid out by the words of Jesus, as recorded in Matthew (Sermon on the Mount), and by Paul, led by the Holy Spirit, in his epistles. 

What you are doing, in essence, is what the serpent in the garden did, ''Yea, Hath God said.....''.

God clearly told Adam he could eat of any tree, except one.

The command could not be more clear.

Yet Satan was able (easily it seemed) to deceive first the woman, then the man, by causing them to doubt what the word of God was.

Also, during Jesus' ministry on earth, He was questioned by silver-tongued Pharisees hoping to catch Him in a ''religious/legal'' trap. 

A few times by mis-quoting the Old Testament, particularly when they asked about Moses and divorce. 

If your worldview says watching porn and jerking off is not lust or sin, then have at it. No Christian should follow that advice, though. 

We, as Christians, HAVE allowed Jesus to define lust, and it's plainly recorded in Scripture.


----------



## SunWhiskey (May 21, 2019)

personofinterest said:


> But wait, didn't you hear the news? If you don't believe in God that automatically raises your IQ by 25 points! If you're an obnoxious jerk about it, it raises your IQ40 points!




You hold a grudge against non-believers according to this statement. That's very Christian of you.


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

I was rude. Not good


----------



## SunWhiskey (May 21, 2019)

How did you arrive there from that statement? Poor man.


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

SunWhiskey said:


> How did you arrive there from that statement? Poor man.


I was being a smart aleck. It was uncalled for. Sorry. I'm removing it.


----------



## SunWhiskey (May 21, 2019)

personofinterest said:


> I was being a smart aleck. It was uncalled for. Sorry. I'm removing it.


Thank you. I digress as well. I just didn't care for being slammed for being a non-believer when I never judge people for their beliefs.

It's also not that I've never gave it a fair shot as suggested. When I found out my wife was cheating, I re-visited my potential faith and re-read the entire bible a little each night.

In the end, it just doesn't do it for me. It doesn't register as potentially factual. I don't believe.



Statements like yours don't help much toward spreading faith either.


----------



## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

Moderators need to close this thread.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

personofinterest said:


> But wait, didn't you hear the news? If you don't believe in God that automatically raises your IQ by 25 points! If you're an obnoxious jerk about it, it raises your IQ40 points!


Ooh, ooh! Can I play?

I think you have the causality backwards!

This thread was more fun when you guys were arguing over which religion was better.


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

SunWhiskey said:


> You hold a grudge against non-believers according to this statement. That's very Christian of you.


Why do you think a Christian can't be sarcastic at times?

And I'm being ironic, maybe a bit sarcastic, to be clear.

With all the vitriol in the media regarding Christianity, this is a great statement from @personofinterest.


----------



## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

Cletus said:


> This thread was more fun when you guys were arguing over which religion was better.


No, the dispute was over how to determine doctrine. Whether it's the Pope, councils, tradition or the Bible.

Nice misrepresentation, though.

It's cool how you dug up POI's quote two hours after she deleted it and apologized. 

You must fall in the +40IQ bracket.


----------



## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

OnTheFly said:


> No, the dispute was over how to determine doctrine. Whether it's the Pope, councils, tradition or the Bible.


Which is an awesome topic to discuss! I’m just not sure this is the right thread or forum.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

OnTheFly said:


> No, the dispute was over how to determine doctrine. Whether it's the Pope, councils, tradition or the Bible.


You say tomato...

You don't have to look too far to find Protestants who declare Catholicism to be apostasy or a cult, and the eight years I spent in Catholic school give me at least some standing on the issue. 



> It's cool how you dug up POI's quote two hours after she deleted it and apologized.
> 
> You must fall in the +40IQ bracket.


Looks like that post is still there to me, unmodified, though I do see the apology. I might not be in the +40 bracket, but I'm solidly in the 3 digits I-can-read-a-post-still-right-in-front-of-my-eyes bracket. 

POI has a long history of making statements and then backing away from them later with an "I was rude" or "I wasn't feeling well" or "my period" or somesuch. I was taught that "I'm sorry" meant I'll try not to do it again, so apologies that don't appear to be moving the needle in that direction fall a little flat. Don't get me wrong - I rather like her acerbic tongue and style. But if you post it, well, it will get a response. As it should.


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

personofinterest said:


> Sorry


For those who need to know, the post is now removed. I don't know why it didn't work the first time. I had typed "I was rude" in both the post and reason for editing. Reception was spotty at the time, so maybe it didn't go through?

At any rate, it's gone now, so the apparent life-threatening disturbance in the force has been averted.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

personofinterest said:


> For those who need to know, the post is now removed. I don't know why it didn't work the first time. I had typed "I was rude" in both the post and reason for editing. Reception was spotty at the time, so maybe it didn't go through?
> 
> At any rate, it's gone now, so the apparent life-threatening disturbance in the force has been averted.


It's all good. The world would be a boring place without people who enjoy a little back-and-forth.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Cletus said:


> It's all good. The world would be a boring place without people who enjoy a little back-and-forth.


A little back-and-forth is great, but a little in-and-out is far better.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

InMyPrime said:


> And if you are NOT lusting after women when you watch porn? Maybe we should let Jesus decide what ‘lusting after women’ actually means instead of deciding for him?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




Come on now, don't be naïve. He also tells us to be faithful. Faithfulness incudes being faithful with our eyes and thoughts not just physically.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

personofinterest said:


> For those who need to know, the post is now removed. I don't know why it didn't work the first time. I had typed "I was rude" in both the post and reason for editing. Reception was spotty at the time, so maybe it didn't go through?
> 
> At any rate, it's gone now, so the apparent life-threatening disturbance in the force has been averted.




What was rude? I thought you tried to compliment us all. I took it as a compliment anyway. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> A little back-and-forth is great, but a little in-and-out is far better.



Hey, that’s my line!! 
“Little”...speak for yourself! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> Come on now, don't be naïve. He also tells us to be faithful. Faithfulness incudes being faithful with our eyes and thoughts not just physically.



I am faithful. Lusting after someone means wanting to have sex with them. I don’t want to have sex with any of them! I just have trouble imagining anything sometimes (also can’t be bothered to). 
Jesus would know what’s in everyone’s heart...Just have to reconcile with what’s in one’s pants too and then it’s all good. Go on, spread the love!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Cletus said:


> POI has a long history of making statements and then backing away from them later with an "I was rude" or "I wasn't feeling well" or "my period" or somesuch..



Are you sure you haven’t overheard someone trying to get out of sex instead?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

I always invited dates back to my place to watch porn on my flat screen ceiling mirror.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Hmm, wonder if anyone has combined deep fakes and a ceiling mounted flat screen. Then you can see yourself having sex with anyone you want. :wink2:




Andy1001 said:


> I always invited dates back to my place to watch porn on my flat screen ceiling mirror.


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> *They also forbid certain people to marry which is absolutely blasphemous teaching.*
> 
> They also allow the Poop to change or alter doctrine already established by God.
> 
> I will pass. The Poop isn't God or even an intermediary. Jesus is. The Poop looks mighty funny in his hat and pretty curtains he wears as clothes though.


My wife grew up Catholic and studied in a foreign country (where we met). When we wanted to marry, the priest refused because she was not a member of the church making regular donations. As a student she had no income to donate, nor did her scholarship allow for donations.

When my wife went to confession shortly after that she gave the priest an earful about how she grew up her whole life in the Catholic church, attended countless mission trips to help the poor, and had never lost her faith for one moment until coming to America and discovering that the only thing the church cared about was money and that they had NO programs to help the poor. She told that priest he should be ashamed of himself and that she would go find another church. 

So back to my point. The Catholic church will marry anyone as long as they donate enough money!


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

badsanta said:


> My wife grew up Catholic and studied in a foreign country (where we met). When we wanted to marry, the priest refused because she was not a member of the church making regular donations. As a student she had no income to donate, nor did her scholarship allow for donations.
> 
> When my wife went to confession shortly after that she gave the priest an earful about how she grew up her whole life in the Catholic church, attended countless mission trips to help the poor, and had never lost her faith for one moment until coming to America and discovering that the only thing the church cared about was money and that they had NO programs to help the poor. She told that priest he should be ashamed of himself and that she would go find another church.
> 
> So back to my point. The Catholic church will marry anyone as long as they donate enough money!


LoL!:laugh:


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

badsanta said:


> My wife grew up Catholic and studied in a foreign country (where we met). When we wanted to marry, the priest refused because she was not a member of the church making regular donations. As a student she had no income to donate, nor did her scholarship allow for donations.
> 
> When my wife went to confession shortly after that she gave the priest an earful about how she grew up her whole life in the Catholic church, attended countless mission trips to help the poor, and had never lost her faith for one moment until coming to America and discovering that the only thing the church cared about was money and that they had NO programs to help the poor. She told that priest he should be ashamed of himself and that she would go find another church.
> 
> So back to my point. The Catholic church will marry anyone as long as they donate enough money!


It often works the same way for that all important annulment.


----------



## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

badsanta said:


> My wife grew up Catholic and studied in a foreign country (where we met). When we wanted to marry, the priest refused because she was not a member of the church making regular donations. As a student she had no income to donate, nor did her scholarship allow for donations.
> 
> When my wife went to confession shortly after that she gave the priest an earful about how she grew up her whole life in the Catholic church, attended countless mission trips to help the poor, and had never lost her faith for one moment until coming to America and discovering that the only thing the church cared about was money and that they had NO programs to help the poor. She told that priest he should be ashamed of himself and that she would go find another church.
> 
> So back to my point. The Catholic church will marry anyone as long as they donate enough money!


When myself and my wife were engaged (the first time lol) she wanted to get married in a Catholic Church which she had attended as a child. When we went to see the parish priest he was really snotty with me and told me I would need a letter from the parish priest of everywhere that I had ever lived for over two months, this letter was to confirm that I had been attending church regularly. 
This wasn’t going to happen so we booked another place to have the wedding. 
That wedding didn’t happen. 
A while later the original church had its roof damaged in a storm (act of god?) and there was a big fundraising drive to raise money for the repairs. One of the proposals was an sponsored all night sit out to raise money. My girlfriend was asked to take part and she agreed, however she was pregnant and I didn’t like the idea of her being outside all night so I rang one of the locals crawthumpers and paid for the repairs myself. The following Sunday HE was thanked from the altar, I never got any thanks at all. But as they say, the plot thickens. 
A few more months went by and my daughter was born and by pure chance (yeah) who should happen to be in my neighborhood but the parish priest. He called in and told me there would be no problem whatsoever having the wedding in his church and if we wanted our daughter baptised then that wouldn’t be any problem either. He then casually mentioned (again yeah) that the church heating system was damaged beyond repair and how much a new one was going to cost. 
I told him that the baby’s godmother was a gay woman who was also going to be bridesmaid at our wedding and how did he feel about that. He said he would get back to me. I’m still waiting.


----------



## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> It often works the same way for that all important annulment.


I've thought about getting one...just a fleeting thought. I have grounds. But then I remember that I stopped going to the Catholic church years ago so I really don't care what they think of my marriage so why spend the money.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

notmyjamie said:


> I've thought about getting one...just a fleeting thought. I have grounds. But then I remember that I stopped going to the Catholic church years ago so I really don't care what they think of my marriage so why spend the money.


My father grew up in the Catholic church; alter boy, the works. 

He was excommunicated for getting a divorce when his first wife told him she didn't want to be married anymore, took their 2 year old son, and left the state.

As you might guess, he also stopped caring what the church thought.


----------



## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> My father grew up in the Catholic church; alter boy, the works.
> 
> He was excommunicated for getting a divorce when his first wife told him she didn't want to be married anymore, took their 2 year old son, and left the state.
> 
> As you might guess, he also stopped caring what the church thought.


What gets me is the complete inconsistency. My mother left my father and divorced him due to alcoholism. Her priest had no problem with this as long as she didn't get remarried without an annulment, which she never did. She was welcomed at Mass every week with open arms. My coworker divorced her husband when he was caught embezzling funda from his company and she was arrested along with him even though she knew nothing about it. She is still paying off this money, 10 years later. When she got divorced the priest invited her to never return to church. Nice.

The priest who married me told me to just pray about birth control and make sure my husband and I agreed but that if we chose to use it that would be fine. My girlfriend's priest refused to marry her when she admitted she planned to use it.


----------



## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

Andy1001 said:


> A while later the original church had its roof damaged in a storm


When MIF/FIL inquired at their local church (Church of England) if 2 non-religious people living in America could get married there the answer was, yes, cough, £500 (about $1,200 today), cough, roof.


----------



## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

CharlieParker said:


> When MIF/FIL inquired at their local church (Church of England) if 2 non-religious people living in America could get married there the answer was, yes, cough, £500 (about $1,200 today), cough, roof.


My mother died in a car crash and my father took his own life a few hours later. 
My mother was Scottish and her family had a plot in a small village cemetery not very far from Edinburgh. I traveled to Scotland to arrange the funeral and a catholic nun who was in charge of the cemetery told me that suicide was a sin and my father wouldn’t be buried along with my mother. 
I paid her twenty thousand pounds sterling for so called repairs to the cemetery walls before she agreed to let my parents be interred together. 
Catholicism is big business and money is their god. 
Their saints are called dollar, euro, pound, and a few others.


----------



## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

Andy1001 said:


> My mother died in a car crash and my father took his own life a few hours later.
> My mother was Scottish and her family had a plot in a small village cemetery not very far from Edinburgh. I traveled to Scotland to arrange the funeral and a catholic nun who was in charge of the cemetery told me that suicide was a sin and my father wouldn’t be buried along with my mother.
> I paid her twenty thousand pounds sterling for so called repairs to the cemetery walls before she agreed to let my parents be interred together.
> Catholicism is big business and money is their god.
> Their saints are called dollar, euro, pound, and a few others.


That story just made me sick to my stomach. I'm sorry for your double loss and that you had to deal with that. My understanding is that the Catholic church now recognizes that suicide if from an illness and no longer considers it a sin. Too late for you but at least that's something.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Andy1001 said:


> My mother died in a car crash and my father took his own life a few hours later.
> My mother was Scottish and her family had a plot in a small village cemetery not very far from Edinburgh. I traveled to Scotland to arrange the funeral and a catholic nun who was in charge of the cemetery told me that suicide was a sin and my father wouldn’t be buried along with my mother.
> I paid her twenty thousand pounds sterling for so called repairs to the cemetery walls before she agreed to let my parents be interred together.
> Catholicism is big business and money is their god.
> Their saints are called dollar, euro, pound, and a few others.


F.U.C.#!!!!!! I know their operating procedure and history and this still blows my damn mind and pisses me off!!!


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

notmyjamie said:


> That story just made me sick to my stomach. I'm sorry for your double loss and that you had to deal with that. My understanding is that the Catholic church now recognizes that suicide if from an illness and no longer considers it a sin. Too late for you but at least that's something.


They might recognize my foot up their ass.

I've got negative tolerance for this bull ****.


----------



## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

I'm sorry to hear the church bashing. I've been literally saved by it so many times my love and gratitude only grows. 

My son suffered a life threatening illness and guess who was first to the hospital after my wife and I- our humble and busy parish priest!

Same story with other kids who've been to the ER. I tithe little, but it has never stopped one of my priests from supporting me and my family. Truly!

The priests I know are celebrating Mass every day, and have always been there to offer the sacraments: baptism, communion, confession, and more. They're beautiful human beings full of love of others and God.

Bible thumpers go read Romans 6 12:14. Are you presenting your "members for sin"? I think you are!

RMY, I understand now why you are so anti-catholic and choose to defend porn and masturbation.


----------



## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

ConanHub said:


> They might recognize my foot up their ass.
> 
> I've got negative tolerance for this bull ****.


And I don't blame you one bit at all. But, it is good to know that what happened to you and your Dad won't happen to others. As I said, I gave up the Catholic church years ago...for just these kinds of things. 

My mother's church still sends her donation envelopes every month. She died almost 2 years ago...they conducted her funeral Mass and she's buried in their cemetery for God's sake. 

I teach my kids to treat others with respect, care, generosity, etc. I don't feel they are losing out on anything by not attending church. Well, except dealing with this kind of bull****. 

And to bring this back to the original topic of this thread...I don't have to feel guilty if I watch some porn. Win-win!!! >


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

notmyjamie said:


> And I don't blame you one bit at all. But, it is good to know that what happened to you and your Dad won't happen to others. As I said, I gave up the Catholic church years ago...for just these kinds of things.
> 
> My mother's church still sends her donation envelopes every month. She died almost 2 years ago...they conducted her funeral Mass and she's buried in their cemetery for God's sake.
> 
> ...


Mixed me up with Andy but I appreciate the sentiment!:grin2:


----------



## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

ConanHub said:


> Mixed me up with Andy but I appreciate the sentiment!:grin2:


So I did...whoops!!!!! And I'm not even drunk!!! LOL


----------



## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

The Church of England separated itself from the Roman Catholic Church about 500 years ago so that King Henry the VIII could get an annulment and marry Anne Boleyn.

I suppose to the haters... We're one and the same.


----------



## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

CatholicDad said:


> I'm sorry to hear the church bashing. I've been literally saved by it so many times my love and gratitude only grows.
> 
> My son suffered a life threatening illness and guess who was first to the hospital after my wife and I- our humble and busy parish priest!


I don't doubt that there are some wonderful priests who are in it solely to do God's work who give generously of their time and faith. The priest who officiated my wedding was just such a priest. 

But then there are others...and they ruin it for everyone. I work with parents who have stillborn babies...I've done it for 19 years...in that time only 6 times has a priest shown up when requested. Those 6 priests were amazing though.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

notmyjamie said:


> So I did...whoops!!!!! And I'm not even drunk!!! LOL


You have no good excuse!!!:laugh::laugh::laugh:


----------



## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

ConanHub said:


> You have no good excuse!!!:laugh::laugh::laugh:


Um...I had one eye on the porn I was watching??? Will that work???? >


----------



## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

notmyjamie said:


> That story just made me sick to my stomach. I'm sorry for your double loss and that you had to deal with that. My understanding is that the Catholic church now recognizes that suicide if from an illness and no longer considers it a sin. Too late for you but at least that's something.


That explains it. I went to Catholic funeral mass for a woman who committed suicide, while never mentioned outright there was much talk of her struggles with illness. It was actually a quite beautiful service while of course incredibly sad.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

notmyjamie said:


> Um...I had one eye on the porn I was watching??? Will that work???? >


Ok. You bad girl!>:wink2:


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Prosperity theology of one sort or another doesn't much care about sectional squabbles. You say money for annulments, I say a $200,000 Lambhorgini gift to a pastor's wife...


----------



## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

My issue with porn has nothing to do with my faith, or with its affect on marriages or relationships. Many many young women are horribly exploited in the making of much of that porn. Hidden cams, revenge porn, young women lured into small “amateur porn” mills with false promises. It is a miserable industry for the majority of the young women lured to it. Not to mention the use of sex trafficking victims.

Personally, I can’t watch without thinking of the exploitation.

If I need help getting my imagination going, I’ll go with a good bit of written erotica.


----------



## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

DBNO, that's a great point and often ignored.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

DownButNotOut said:


> Personally, I can’t watch without thinking of the exploitation.


I hope you're not too attached to that cellphone or laptop. Ever visit a FoxConn plant? 

Not that you're wrong, of course, but maybe just a little bit selective in your outrage?


----------



## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

Cletus said:


> I hope you're not too attached to that cellphone or laptop. Ever visit a FoxConn plant?
> 
> Not that you're wrong, of course, but maybe just a little bit selective in your outrage?


Oh I'm being very selective in my outrage.  

There is a big difference between knowing exploitation happens, and seeing exploitation happen. Besides, it kinda kills the buzz for me if you know what I mean, and if that's the case why watch?


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

notmyjamie said:


> CatholicDad said:
> 
> 
> > I'm sorry to hear the church bashing. I've been literally saved by it so many times my love and gratitude only grows.
> ...


Only someone choosing to be blind is incapable of admitting the Catholic church is less than perfect.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

CatholicDad said:


> I'm sorry to hear the church bashing. I've been literally saved by it so many times my love and gratitude only grows.
> 
> My son suffered a life threatening illness and guess who was first to the hospital after my wife and I- our humble and busy parish priest!
> 
> ...


You read me wrong time and time again.

I've not been a porn defender here; I have been a critic of faulty logic which you present time and time again. That's not saying the same thing as advocating for porn any more than saying I don't like Clinton means I love Trump. Quit making up false conclusions.

Nor am I anti-Catholic. I am anti-corruption, anti-pedophilia, and anti-made up non-biblical doctrine. 
But while the Catholic Church has been rife with all those things ever since its very inception, I still understand that individuals are individuals, all should be assessed on their own merit, and I recognize and applaud the good things the church has done. 

My father's experience happened well before I was born and I didn't learn the specifics until becoming an adult; he never talked about it one way or the other. So that experience has nothing to do with my perceptions of Catholicism. Stop making snap judgments. 

Throughout my life, I've known Catholics who are among the finest examples of humanity I've known anywhere and under any faith. These have been truly loving, uplifting, and devout but nonjudgmental people. Sadly, you don't seem to fit that description.


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> CatholicDad said:
> 
> 
> > I'm sorry to hear the church bashing. I've been literally saved by it so many times my love and gratitude only grows.
> ...


Brilliant and extremely true post


----------



## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Say what you want RMY. Anyone with a brain can see you have a pretty big axe to grind.

Your personal feelings about the church taint everything you "say". You always jump into the fray to denounce the church whenever the topic of porn is brought up. You then lack the intellectual honesty to admit you are pro porn or anti-church.


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

CatholicDad said:


> Say what you want RMY. Anyone with a brain can see you have a pretty big axe to grind.
> 
> Your personal feelings about the church taint everything you "say". You always jump into the fray to denounce the church whenever the topic of porn is brought up. You then lack the intellectual honesty to admit you are pro porn or anti-church.


And you lack the tact and emotional intelligence to effectively share the truth with anyone.

I do not use porn, and neither does my husband. But your method of...... "evangelism".....honestly, I wish you'd stop talking about Christianity. It just feeds ALL the negative stereotypes.


----------



## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

I would have thought CD would respond that all churches have bad people, that the RC church should be followed due to apostolic succession, and that you can’t just follow the Bible because the Protestants removed books from the Bible that supported doctrines of which they disapproved. (The Protestant claim that the RCC added the Deuterocanon/Apocrypha to scripture at Trent in 1546 can be disproven by looking at the canons of the Eastern Orthodox who broke off in the Great Schism of 1054, and the Oriental Orthodox who broke off after the schism following the Council of Chalcedon in 451.)

But I have no dog in this fight. I love evangelicals and Catholics.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

CatholicDad said:


> Say what you want RMY. Anyone with a brain can see you have a pretty big axe to grind.
> 
> Your personal feelings about the church taint everything you "say". You always jump into the fray to denounce the church whenever the topic of porn is brought up. You then lack the intellectual honesty to admit you are pro porn or anti-church.


Let me know when you find anything false in what I've said. 

Let me know what possible reason I'd have an ax to grind against the church, a church that has never wronged me in any way. 

Or better yet, just let me know when you have a single shred of logic by which you can make such accusations.

At this point, the only thing that would turn me solidly against the church would be believing you are a representative example; yeah, then I'd ready to level some serious condemnation.


----------



## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

CatholicDad said:


> Say what you want RMY. Anyone with a brain can see you have a pretty big axe to grind.
> 
> Your personal feelings about the church taint everything you "say". You always jump into the fray to denounce the church whenever the topic of porn is brought up. You then lack the intellectual honesty to admit you are pro porn or anti-church.


RMY is a master debater. In other words, he likes to argue.:grin2: And, he likes to win which is a necessary component of being great at debates.

Don't get in the ring with him if you can't separate the wheat from the chaff.
@ConanHub, you said you were still pondering CG and cartoon generated images. If you saw Homer and Marge Simpson engaged in copulation (or, anything else one would normally see in porn), would that qualify as porn to you? My yardstick is if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck - it's a duck.


----------



## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

Blondilocks said:


> RMY is a master debater.


And a cunning linguist. But does he have Roman hands and Russian fingers?


----------



## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

CraigBesuden said:


> And a cunning linguist. But does he have Roman hands and Russian fingers?


You would need to ask his wife.:wink2:


----------



## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

CatholicDad said:


> My son suffered a life threatening illness and guess who was first to the hospital.....?


Ummm.....the doctors and nurses.



CatholicDad said:


> Bible thumpers....


I know this is meant as an insult, but you have no idea how much it warms my heart that I'm known as someone who reads and tries to adhere solely to the Bible....thank you, truly.



CatholicDad said:


> RMY, I understand now why you are so anti-catholic and choose to defend porn and masturbation.


I beg to differ, I don't think you understand at all. If only the catholics had a word like '' anti-semite'', you'd be better at shutting down criticism.

The list of catholic errors in regards to doctrine and ecclesiology is too long to deal with here, but even I'll admit there are probably a remnant of catholics who eat the Biblical meat and spit out the catholic bones. But, generally, RCs are in my mission field for evangelism.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Blondilocks said:


> RMY is a master debater. In other words, he likes to argue.:grin2: And, he likes to win which is a necessary component of being great at debates.
> 
> Don't get in the ring with him if you can't separate the wheat from the chaff.
> 
> @ConanHub, you said you were still pondering CG and cartoon generated images. If you saw Homer and Marge Simpson engaged in copulation (or, anything else one would normally see in porn), would that qualify as porn to you? My yardstick is if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck - it's a duck.


I'm glad you left the "[space]de" in the middle of "master debater." (especially given the topic of this thread!)


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Blondilocks said:


> RMY is a master debater. In other words, he likes to argue.:grin2: And, he likes to win which is a necessary component of being great at debates.
> 
> Don't get in the ring with him if you can't separate the wheat from the chaff.
> 
> @ConanHub, you said you were still pondering CG and cartoon generated images. If you saw Homer and Marge Simpson engaged in copulation (or, anything else one would normally see in porn), would that qualify as porn to you? My yardstick is if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck - it's a duck.


I'm considering where the sin would be in looking at sex cartoons or cg. You aren't looking at people so you can't be lusting after another human. You aren't endorsing prostitution or fornication by your monetary or other support.

I'm actually really looking for a way to call it sin and having a hard time nailing down where it crosses the line.

So far, it looks like it might not be sinful. Now eating a lawn mower isn't sinful either, just dumb so cartoon or cg sex watching might not be sinful and it might not be helpful or smart either.


----------



## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> I'm considering where the sin would be in looking at sex cartoons or cg. You aren't looking at people so you can't be lusting after another human. You aren't endorsing prostitution or fornication by your monetary or other support.
> 
> I'm actually really looking for a way to call it sin and having a hard time nailing down where it crosses the line.
> 
> So far, it looks like it might not be sinful. Now eating a lawn mower isn't sinful either, just dumb so cartoon or cg sex watching might not be sinful and it might not be helpful or smart either.


You would be viewing depictions of human beings. The ancient fresco found on a wall of a bedroom in Pompeii is referred to as wall porn. And, that only involved one human and one god in swan form (Leda and Jupiter).


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Blondilocks said:


> You would be viewing depictions of human beings. The ancient fresco found on a wall of a bedroom in Pompeii is referred to as wall porn. And, that only involved one human and one god in swan form (Leda and Jupiter).


Images of actual people might bring a wrinkle to consider but, depending on how the image is used, it still might not be sin.

It certainly could be used sinfully more easily than fictional character images for sure.


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

CatholicDad said:


> I'm sorry to hear the church bashing. I've been literally saved by it so many times my love and gratitude only grows.


There are probably some good priests out there. My wife wanted me to do RCIA so I attended but eventually gave up. The priest giving the class described why he became a priest. He said that one of his close friends managed to become a priest and that he knew for sure that guy was the biggest idiot he had ever met, and that at that time he realized that he too had what it took to become a priest. NO LIE! 

So as I am trying to remember all my prayers, the priest said that the church decided to change their standards and the we would have to re-memorize everything with ever so slightly different wordings and buy a new book for studying. 

I stopped going because the RCIA class only served to make me loose my respect for the church. I went into it with some respect and came out thinking to myself that no wonder attendance is dropping so fast!

Regards, 
Badsanta


----------



## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

I'm considering this a win.

I bring up my arguments against porn and masturbation and all I get back is "we hate the church".

I'd respect porn lovers more if they'd just admit they love it too much to give it up.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

CatholicDad said:


> I'm considering this a win.
> 
> I bring up my arguments against porn and masturbation and all I get back is "we hate the church".
> 
> I'd respect porn lovers more if they'd just admit they love it too much to give it up.


You clearly aren't paying attention.

I don't believe masturbation is a sin, which isn't what this thread is about anyway, and I do believe watching porn is a sin.

I detest the Catholic Church and it's practices but not Catholics. I love many of them and find a lot of good in them.


----------



## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

BadSanta, you're obviously an incredibly intelligent and thoughtful person. That said, faith starts in the heart. Your wife obviously has a bigger heart!

Intelligence isn't necessarily an attribute of a good priest. Satan is intelligent. A good priest is one willing to love and sacrifice himself for his flock. This can be the opposite of intelligence!


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Many people view porn and masturbation as two very different things. 



CatholicDad said:


> I'm considering this a win.
> 
> I bring up my arguments against porn and masturbation and all I get back is "we hate the church".
> 
> I'd respect porn lovers more if they'd just admit they love it too much to give it up.


----------



## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Conan, where we differ is that I believe masturbation is a sin, just less so if you're thinking about your wife when doing it.

We also differ in that I love the church that you detest. I'd remind you that my church gave yours the Bible. You're welcome! Protestantism didn't start until the 16th century. Within a couple generations ago all Protestant theologians would have agreed that masturbation was a sin. They've caved to societal pressure despite that the Bible hasn't changed. Ditto for contraception, abortion, etc.. I suppose the new Father's of your church are just better theologians.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

There we agree. Lucifer's first act in the bible was to bring knowledge to Adam and Eve. If they had had computers it probably would have been a porn clip rather than an apple 

I don't see any relationship to sacrifice though - I think both intelligent and non-intelligent people can be willing to sacrifice themselves for others. OTOH intelligence and knowledge may make people question what they are willing to sacrifice for. 







CatholicDad said:


> snip
> 
> Intelligence isn't necessarily an attribute of a good priest. Satan is intelligent. A good priest is one willing to love and sacrifice himself for his flock. This can be the opposite of intelligence!


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Blondilocks said:


> You would be viewing depictions of human beings. The ancient fresco found on a wall of a bedroom in Pompeii is referred to as wall porn. And, that only involved one human and one god in swan form (Leda and Jupiter).


Methinks it's time for a new limerick!

There once was a man from Pompeii
With women he liked to play
He drew porn on the wall
That would one day earn the gall
Of Catholic Dad as he shows us the way!


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

CatholicDad said:


> I'm considering this a win.
> 
> I bring up my arguments against porn and masturbation and all I get back is "we hate the church".
> 
> I'd respect porn lovers more if they'd just admit they love it too much to give it up.


You are absolutely the worst when it comes to ignoring what people are actually saying. But of course that would interfere with you exceedingly narrow worldview. 

Most have not said "we hate the church." They have only pointed out the obvious faults of the church. That is not hate, it is sharing of relevant points. A church that has so often missed the mark in execution of what it preaches loses credibility. The only point here is that, just because the church says something doesn't mean it's true. The history of Catholocism has far too many breaches of trust and integrity to be obeyed without question. Again, that's not hate; it's just acknowledging a point that deserves consideration. 

You label anybody who doesn't agree with you 100% as a porn lover, completely ignoring that there are those of us here who don't consume porn, but still see through your faulty premises and indefensible illogic. 

You can claim victory when you start from a position of facts, proceed along a logical train of thought, and arrive at a defensible conclusion based on those facts and rational analysis.


----------



## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

CatholicDad said:


> Conan, where we differ is that I believe masturbation is a sin, just less so if you're thinking about your wife when doing it.


What about if she’s there actively participating as part of sex (broadly defined). Or, just passively providing eye candy? As we are getting older and with medical issues both have become an important part of our repertoire.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

CatholicDad said:


> Conan, where we differ is that I believe masturbation is a sin, just less so if you're thinking about your wife when doing it.
> 
> We also differ in that I love the church that you detest. I'd remind you that my church gave yours the Bible. You're welcome! Protestantism didn't start until the 16th century. Within a couple generations ago all Protestant theologians would have agreed that masturbation was a sin. They've caved to societal pressure despite that the Bible hasn't changed. Ditto for contraception, abortion, etc.. I suppose the new Father's of your church are just better theologians.


You could start a different thread about these subjects but you will find I am an accomplished theologian and adequate historian to boot.

I don't actually need to grab an argument from any other source. I make my own.

God gave all of us the Bible so you can drop the Catholic pompous arrogance. I'm quite aware of the path the Bible has taken through history and the Roman Catholics hardly gave us the Word of God. They are certainly a part of history however.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

CharlieParker said:


> What about if she’s there actively participating as part of sex (broadly defined). Or, just passively providing eye candy? As we are getting older and with medical issues both have become an important part of our repertoire.


This is so off topic but just ask him to give scripture showing that the act of self pleasuring is a sin or to find a God given command that it is forbidden. References to where people in history have disobeyed God's "command" to not masturbate and felt a penalty from God would also be helpful.

If he brings up Er, it is a non starter as his situation didn't even include masturbation but he was an ass that wouldn't do his duty by impregnating his wife.


----------



## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

uhtred said:


> Lucifer's first act in the bible was to bring knowledge to Adam and Eve.


Sounds like something Jordan Peterson would say.

Lucifer was a created being, rebelled against God, took a 1/3 of the angels with him.

He is a deceiver, liar, and murderer.

*John 8:44 Modern English Version (MEV)

44 You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
*

He sought to kill Adam and Eve, and eventually succeeded, when they died in old age.

But, what Satan meant for evil, God meant for good. 

We now have a way out of hell, by the shed blood of Jesus on the cross. Believe now, before your earthly journey is over.


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

"I'd remind you that my church gave yours the Bible"

Such heretical arrogance.

Have you read II Timothy 3:16

GOD gave us the Bible.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

personofinterest said:


> "I'd remind you that my church gave yours the Bible"
> 
> Such heretical arrogance.
> 
> ...


In Trump speak, that would be two Timothy, right? 

Still, it's a bit of circular reasoning having the Bible vouch for itself. Seems more likely that man gave us both.


----------



## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

Cletus said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> > "I'd remind you that my church gave yours the Bible"
> ...


If ALL scripture is God breathed and fit for instruction, that would include the Apocrypha especially as those books are alluded to in the NT and were included in the Septuagint. But it wouldn’t include the NT books as they weren’t codified as scripture at that time. (Or alternatively, you’d have to include 1 Clement, Epistle of Barnabus, etc into the word ALL for NT scripture.)


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

CraigBesuden said:


> Cletus said:
> 
> 
> > personofinterest said:
> ...


Ya.......no


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

4 “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. 5 “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.


To me that sounds like he gave the the knowledge of good and evil. In particular their recognizing their nakedness seems related to the shame over nakedness which leads to shame over porn. 


Satan is called father of lies, but in the bible it seems he is more likely to tell truths that are bad for people. (like telling them about good / evil, and nakdness). I don't think he kills anyone in the bible - at least not directly. God OTOH....

This is not completely off topic. Many objections to porn are based on religion, but the bible is open to a great deal of interpretation, on this subject as well as many others. If someone objects to porn due to their own religion, I have no objection at all. Its only when they object to *other* peoples use of porn on that basis. 







OnTheFly said:


> Sounds like something Jordan Peterson would say.
> 
> Lucifer was a created being, rebelled against God, took a 1/3 of the angels with him.
> 
> ...


----------



## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

CraigBesuden said:


> (Or alternatively, you’d have to include 1 Clement, Epistle of Barnabus, etc into the word ALL for NT scripture.)


Also, church councils, the pope when speaking ''ex cathedra'', tradition, the Koran, and the Book of Abraham and the Book of Mormon?

Paul quoted a couple of Greek philosophers also, Menander and Epimenides, toss them into the NT too?

Of course not.

The NT was written by Apostles or those who were contemporary co-workers (Luke and John Mark, for example).

The canon was closed and recognized by the early church long before anyone in Rome put their stamp of approval on it.

Porn is still sin, and masturbating is still not.


----------



## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

The early church WAS the Catholic Church that both decided what new testament writings to include and exclude. It wasn't done by some non-denominational dudes like you guys imagine. 

Further, it was hand written by monks in monasteries before the printing press was invented.

So, believe it or not the Catholic Church really did give mankind the Bible. It is the word of God, but assembled by God's chosen people- and early Catholics. Look up who started your church... Some dude probably a hundred years ago. Guess where he got his Bible.

And sure the church isn't perfect but show me an organization run by men or women that is! I think you could literally make argument against every human organization.. they all have terrible skeletons in the closet.

But those that have said they detest the church... that's like saying you detest the early Christians and those that literally gave you the Bible, and those who spread the word of God with their blood! Maybe you should say you detest lukewarm or false Christians. At the very least, all Christians owe the 2000 year old Catholic church a huge debt!

And yes, it teaches that masturbation is wrong and that teaching hasn't changed in 2000 years regardless if "the first church of what's happening now" allows it.


----------



## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

I have no interest in arguing about religion with anyone but I would suggest to Catholic dad to look up the term “Ad Hominem”.
As far as modern religion goes, how does the pope in the Vatican, the cardinals and bishops around the world in their palaces,with their billions of dollars of artwork and all of them in their robes costing thousands of dollars correlate with a man who supposedly died naked on a cross without a cent to his name. 
All the while claiming to be doing his work.


----------



## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

CatholicDad said:


> The early church WAS the Catholic Church that both decided what new testament writings to include and exclude. It wasn't done by some non-denominational dudes like you guys imagine.
> 
> Further, it was hand written by monks in monasteries before the printing press was invented.
> 
> ...


I obviously disagree.

A mere few hundred years ago saying this would have had me burnt at the stake by the catholics, if I was in a country where the state religion was Romanism.

At the same time, my spiritual forebears would have also been burnt at the stake by the protestants if the country they were in had a protestant King or Prince. 

When you marry religion to the magistrate, all hell breaks loose.

State religions are unBiblical.

Of course, any human institution will suffer the effects of having humans in them. The rates of child sex abuse is equal or greater in Hasidic schools, but it's just not reported on like the catholic abuse. Where prey abounds predators assemble.

If your proof that all masturbation is sin comes from outside the Bible, it's irrelevant to me.

If you say it comes from the Bible, show it.

Porn is still sin, masturbation is still not.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

CatholicDad said:


> Conan, where we differ is that I believe masturbation is a sin, just less so if you're thinking about your wife when doing it.



Masturbating while thinking about other people’s wives is not a sin. Finally we are in agreement! 
Also telling people what a sin is, is probably a sin. Only God is allowed to pass final judgement, right? If he made people in his image, it means we all enjoy a bit of masturbation now and again when times are hard...



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

personofinterest said:


> "I'd remind you that my church gave yours the Bible"
> 
> Such heretical arrogance.
> 
> ...




If God gave us the bible (through the people who wrote it?) then i must also be doing God’s work through writing dirty jokes on this forum. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

InMyPrime said:


> If God gave us the bible (through the people who wrote it?) then i must also be doing God’s work through writing dirty jokes on this forum.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


No, you don't qualify as an author of a canonical book of the NT. You're neither an Apostle/eye witness or contemporary co-worker of an Apostle/eyewitness.

Although, your material would be good for the Talmud.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

OnTheFly said:


> Although, your material would be good for the Talmud.



Thanks 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

OnTheFly said:


> No, you don't qualify as an author of a canonical book of the NT.



Why not? I can be fierce too.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

OnTheFly said:


> No, you don't qualify as an author of a canonical book of the NT. You're neither an Apostle/eye witness or contemporary co-worker of an Apostle/eyewitness.
> 
> Although, your material would be good for the Talmud.


I think you’ve mistaken @InMyPrime for something who gives a ****.>


----------



## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Andy, to me the church isn't about cardinals and bishops. It's about the common man and woman, working out their salvation here on Earth. Giving up porn and masturbation seems like a small price to pay.


----------



## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

I wonder what Jews think about masturbation. Seems sad that Protestants are fine with it. I'm no theologian but seems like common sense that masturbation is wrong. I'm feeling pretty good though because usually I can't get consensus that porn is wrong. The fact that we aren't arguing that is miraculous.

Thanks everyone for your input and I wish you all a good night.


----------



## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

CatholicDad said:


> Andy, to me the church isn't about cardinals and bishops. It's about the common man and woman, working out their salvation here on Earth. Giving up porn and masturbation seems like a small price to pay.


Then it wouldnt be a church about God would it - in would humanist/anthropological in nature ie about humans and their relationships and communities.

Shall I google for a church that is based on humanism?


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

CatholicDad said:


> I wonder what Jews think about masturbation. Seems sad that Protestants are fine with it. I'm no theologian but seems like common sense that masturbation is wrong. I'm feeling pretty good though because usually I can't get consensus that porn is wrong. The fact that we aren't arguing that is miraculous.
> 
> Thanks everyone for your input and I wish you all a good night.


I have been a Christian for well over 30 years and I have yet to see anything in the Bible that says masturbation is wrong.Porn yes, thinking of other people when you masturbate yes, but otherwise no.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

InMyPrime said:


> Masturbating while thinking about other people’s wives is not a sin. Finally we are in agreement!
> Also telling people what a sin is, is probably a sin. Only God is allowed to pass final judgement, right? If he made people in his image, it means we all enjoy a bit of masturbation now and again when times are hard...
> 
> 
> ...


I dont agree that fantasizing about someone we aren't married to while masturbating is ok.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> I dont agree that fantasizing about someone we aren't married to while masturbating is ok.



What about fantasising about your wife starring in the porn movie that you are watching? I think that way around should be ok because it’s still your wife you are fantasising about and you are not lusting after other wimmins (or men). Ok with catholicdad too?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

CatholicDad said:


> I wonder what Jews think about masturbation.



Cant speak for other jews but I don’t think much about masturbation. Like Nike says, I ‘Just do it’ (when I have to). I haven’t done it for few months or so so might be out of practice. Only when I travel and away from her do I find it useful.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

InMyPrime said:


> What about fantasising about your wife starring in the porn movie that you are watching? I think that way around should be ok because it’s still your wife you are fantasising about and you are not lusting after other wimmins (or men). Ok with catholicdad too?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Staring in the porn movie that you are watching?


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> Staring in the porn movie that you are watching?



Yes, but imagining it. ‘Cos you can’t really tell who is in them anyway, might as well imagine it’s your wife. That should be ok, no?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

InMyPrime said:


> Yes, but imagining it. ‘Cos you can’t really tell who is in them anyway, might as well imagine it’s your wife. That should be ok, no?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Why are you, as a non-believer, trying to negotiate with a Christian about what a sin is?

Are you trying to bring her down to your level?


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

InMyPrime said:


> Yes, but imagining it. ‘Cos you can’t really tell who is in them anyway, might as well imagine it’s your wife. That should be ok, no?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Not for us, porn is out. Of course you can tell who is in porn, you are watching them.


----------



## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

I’ve never understood the attraction of porn. If a man prefers to watch porn rather than have sex with a willing partner then he has more problems than he thinks.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> Not for us, porn is out. Of course you can tell who is in porn, you are watching them.



Most of the time you can’t see their faces...I guess there’s only one last option left (‘The Final Solution’): have your spouse star in a porn movie. Then you don’t have to ‘imagine’ her having sex with all these guys - since she will be doing it.
This, surely, is ok with God?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

OnTheFly said:


> Why are you, as a non-believer, trying to negotiate with a Christian about what a sin is?
> 
> 
> 
> Are you trying to bring her down to your level?




You mean, pull her up?  I am always trying to pull everyone up, including myself! Other things I like to pull: legs.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

OnTheFly said:


> InMyPrime said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, but imagining it. ‘Cos you can’t really tell who is in them anyway, might as well imagine it’s your wife. That should be ok, no?
> ...


Exactly

And yes, bring DOWN is exactly correct.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

personofinterest said:


> Exactly
> 
> And yes, bring DOWN is exactly correct.



Burn them all (the non-believers) is probably more like it 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mrs.K (Apr 12, 2012)

I oppose porn because it has ruined my marriage, well really its my husband that has ruined it but that is the tool that he has used..
He is addicted to it and it is disgusting. He gave it up for a couple of years (either that or put on a good show about stopping) and things were better. I started noticing some behaviors so I went digging.

I am not sure when he started back up but I think we have gotten to the point where I don't even care anymore. He can have his videos and masturbation but he had better stay away from me. 

I look at him and become sick to my stomach, I have a deep lack of respect for him too. The things he does to me are just gross and you know what? A little weird too.

I went through phases where I tried to be cool with it, when I tried to keep up with the porn stars and when I would get so mad and fight with him. He has really screwed up this time because I don't even feel like having a fight about it. All these years and I look at him and see nothing but disgust.


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Mrs.K said:


> I oppose porn because it has ruined my marriage, well really its my husband that has ruined it but that is the tool that he has used..
> He is addicted to it and it is disgusting. He gave it up for a couple of years (either that or put on a good show about stopping) and things were better. I started noticing some behaviors so I went digging.
> 
> I am not sure when he started back up but I think we have gotten to the point where I don't even care anymore. He can have his videos and masturbation but he had better stay away from me.
> ...


 I am so sorry that you have had to go through that kind of her. I am also sorry that there are probably people on this forum that will come in behind your post and try to defend your husband. That is just just pathetic as the behavior that your husband has displayed.


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

And watch…. someone will cling to the statement he had better stay away from me and make pornography all about how a wife must have withheld from her husband so he had no choice. It's almost laughable how far people will twist themselves to make sure they defend their pet vice lol


----------



## Mrs.K (Apr 12, 2012)

personofinterest said:


> I am so sorry that you have had to go through that kind of her. I am also sorry that there are probably people on this forum that will come in behind your post and try to defend your husband. That is just just pathetic as the behavior that your husband has displayed.



Thank you very much! It is very pathetic, indeed. I need to either work my my attitude with him or have a blow up fight about it.


----------



## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

Mrs.K said:


> I oppose porn because it has ruined my marriage, well really its my husband that has ruined it but that is the tool that he has used.


I’m sorry to hear that.




> He is addicted to it and it is disgusting... [W]e have gotten to the point where I don't even care anymore. He can have his videos and masturbation but he had better stay away from me.
> 
> I look at him and become sick to my stomach, I have a deep lack of respect for him too. The things he does to me are just gross and you know what? A little weird too.


I’d never ask my wife to do something I saw in a movie. He’s watched so much porn that he’s desensitized to normal sex. Like a druggie who needs a larger and larger dose.



> I went through phases where I tried to be cool with it, when I tried to keep up with the porn stars


That’s sad. I would never want my wife to do anything she doesn’t want to do. I also wouldn’t want her, for example, to put on a show by constantly moaning. If she’s focused on doing that, then she isn’t focused on receiving the pleasure I’m trying to give her. [I also hate movies where the girl is fake moaning, doesn’t look into his eyes, etc. If she’s faking it I’m not interested. I prefer the amateur ones.]



> He has really screwed up this time because I don't even feel like having a fight about it. All these years and I look at him and see nothing but disgust.


I think you two may need marital counseling. If he really needs something that you find repulsive, there’s a deep incompatibility there. I hope you’ve been as honest with him as you’ve been here with us. He needs to know that his behavior repulses you, and he can either have you or the videos.


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

> If *he really needs something *that you find repulsive, there’s a deep incompatibility there.


This is why it is called addiction. One who is not addicted does not actually NEED it.

I think that is what is at the crux of some people's issue with the whole porn thing.

The vehemence with which some defend something they say they are not addicted to (and therefore do not NEED) is....interesting.


----------



## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

personofinterest said:


> I am so sorry that you have had to go through that kind of her. I am also sorry that there are probably people on this forum that will come in behind your post and try to defend your husband. That is just just pathetic as the behavior that your husband has displayed.


I feel like most of the men that I've gotten to "know" on this forum would not do that. I've read a bunch of posts that say that wanting porn over your actual wife is a real problem. I know very few men who, when given the chance to have sex with their partner would say "no, thanks, I'll just go watch this video" I think most view porn because they don't get to have sex with their partner which is a whole other problem in a marriage. Or they are viewing it with their partner as a shared experience and foreplay.

The few who would defend him are probably doing the very same thing and have no insight into how screwed up their lives have become. I find that sad really.


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

notmyjamie said:


> I feel like most of the men that I've gotten to "know" on this forum would not do that. I've read a bunch of posts that say that wanting porn over your actual wife is a real problem. I know very few men who, when given the chance to have sex with their partner would say "no, thanks, I'll just go watch this video" I think most view porn because they don't get to have sex with their partner which is a whole other problem in a marriage. Or they are viewing it with their partner as a shared experience and foreplay.
> 
> The few who would defend him are probably doing the very same thing and have no insight into how screwed up their lives have become. I find that sad really.


Good point. I have to be careful not to let the whining redpill few drown out the vast majority of sensible, honorable, MEN on TAM.


----------



## Mrs.K (Apr 12, 2012)

He knows exactly how I feel about it and it hasn't stopped him in the 16 years that we have been married. A couple years ago he said he was done with it and I believed him, I think he was done for a while but not sure how long..

I am so embarrassed to even say this but he is very much into bondage and it seems he would like to be the submissive- I have no interest in dominating him soooo where would that leave us? The most recent videos I found where just that. He also it would seem... uses tape over his mouth while he masturbates. I have been dealing with this for years and know all the signs. I became a little suspicious when he shaved his beard a few weeks ago. I knew it was something related and it was making me sick that it was such a focus from our kids seeing dad without his beard because I KNEW right then WHY.

Anyway all of this leaves me with very little respect for him, I am certainly not attracted to him anymore. On the rare occasions we actually do have sex all I can think is how maybe he wishes I had him tied up or something- which is something that would NEVER happen here. I am not interested at all.


----------



## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

People who strongly have a fetish like that should find people who share it. I wouldn’t want to do whips and chains, either.

Though perhaps you could tape his mouth shut, bend him over a chair. “What’s wrong with you?” **whip** “That porn is disgusting!” **whip** “A real man wouldn’t need that to get off!” **whip**


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Mrs.K said:


> He knows exactly how I feel about it and it hasn't stopped him in the 16 years that we have been married. A couple years ago he said he was done with it and I believed him, I think he was done for a while but not sure how long..
> 
> I am so embarrassed to even say this but he is very much into bondage and it seems he would like to be the submissive- I have no interest in dominating him soooo where would that leave us? The most recent videos I found where just that. He also it would seem... uses tape over his mouth while he masturbates. I have been dealing with this for years and know all the signs. I became a little suspicious when he shaved his beard a few weeks ago. I knew it was something related and it was making me sick that it was such a focus from our kids seeing dad without his beard because I KNEW right then WHY.
> 
> Anyway all of this leaves me with very little respect for him, I am certainly not attracted to him anymore. On the rare occasions we actually do have sex all I can think is how maybe he wishes I had him tied up or something- which is something that would NEVER happen here. I am not interested at all.


I completely and totally understand. My heart hurts for you, Mrs. K


----------



## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

Often times people want to convert something they love (a hobby) into a business. It ends up ruining their enjoyment of the hobby.

Perhaps he could write BDSM erotica and sell it on the Kindle. Make him crank out a large volume of stories. It will bring you some money and, in a matter of months, ruin his fetish.


----------



## Mrs.K (Apr 12, 2012)

CraigBesuden said:


> People who strongly have a fetish like that should find people who share it. I wouldn’t want to do whips and chains, either.
> 
> Though perhaps you could tape his mouth shut, bend him over a chair. “What’s wrong with you?” **whip** “That porn is disgusting!” **whip** “A real man wouldn’t need that to get off!” **whip**


Yes! That idea may work for me!

That is exactly what it is, when this stuff comes up it brings up many many layers of stuff. The fact that it makes him not very masculine in my eyes is a big one. It would be one thing if it was just something he liked once in a while but the fact that since I am not interested and he makes it work on his own is just a turn off. 

I am just no longer willing to compromise my own feelings to make him happy. It is a shame because if you take this whole aspect out of the equation we have had a great marriage.


----------



## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

Mrs.K said:


> He knows exactly how I feel about it and it hasn't stopped him in the 16 years that we have been married. A couple years ago he said he was done with it and I believed him, I think he was done for a while but not sure how long..
> 
> I am so embarrassed to even say this but he is very much into bondage and it seems he would like to be the submissive- I have no interest in dominating him soooo where would that leave us? The most recent videos I found where just that. He also it would seem... uses tape over his mouth while he masturbates. I have been dealing with this for years and know all the signs. I became a little suspicious when he shaved his beard a few weeks ago. I knew it was something related and it was making me sick that it was such a focus from our kids seeing dad without his beard because I KNEW right then WHY.
> 
> Anyway all of this leaves me with very little respect for him, I am certainly not attracted to him anymore. On the rare occasions we actually do have sex all I can think is how maybe he wishes I had him tied up or something- which is something that would NEVER happen here. I am not interested at all.


I'm sure it hurts a lot to find out that he wasn't what you thought he was when you chose to marry him. Believe me when I say I know just how that feels. I am divorcing my husband because he is gay. It sounds like your husband has different sexual needs than you do and that's very hard when your needs and his needs don't match up. 

He's not alone in his desire to be submissive, into bondage, etc. As far as kinks go, his is pretty harmless if he were with someone who wanted the same things. The fact is that a kink or fetish is not something he can control. He wants what he wants but sadly you don't want a partner with those proclivities. 

If you can't live with that, you should end the marriage. But he is your children's father so I'd recommend not treating him like he's some freak of nature. He's not, he just wants what you can't provide. But, he should be honest about it with you. 

For the record, I wouldn't be into this type of sex either. I try to be as accommodating as I can with my partner but some things are just not in my wheelhouse. But, unlike your husband, I try to be honest and upfront with my partners early on so they know what I like and what is a hard no for me so if we don't match up we can move along to find someone who does. Your husband should have done that long ago.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Kinks are not particularly unusual but they are a problem if they are not something compatible with a partner. His kink is not unusual. 

He has kinks that he wants / needs. That is a bit difficult to understand for someone who doesn't have kinks. 

You, I assume, don't want to engage in his kinks. That's completely fine - people should never engage in sexaual acts that they find degrading or disturbing. 

So he turns to porn to satisfy his kinks. Its unlikely the porn *created* his kinks, rather it let him satisfy them. 

You are sexually incompatible. Its not really all that different from his being gay. Like being gay though, kinks seen a fairly innate part of a person, not just something that they can ignore. 


Maybe look at the situation differently. You are sexually incompatible. Neither of your sexual interests / desires is fundamentally wrong, but they have created a huge barrier between you. He is unable to change how he feels - and so are you. Neither of your feelings (his desire for domination / bondage, your desire for conventional sex) are wrong. 


You've been married for a while, have kids. Can I suggest that you talk to him. Find out if there is any way you can work this out. 





Mrs.K said:


> He knows exactly how I feel about it and it hasn't stopped him in the 16 years that we have been married. A couple years ago he said he was done with it and I believed him, I think he was done for a while but not sure how long..
> 
> I am so embarrassed to even say this but he is very much into bondage and it seems he would like to be the submissive- I have no interest in dominating him soooo where would that leave us? The most recent videos I found where just that. He also it would seem... uses tape over his mouth while he masturbates. I have been dealing with this for years and know all the signs. I became a little suspicious when he shaved his beard a few weeks ago. I knew it was something related and it was making me sick that it was such a focus from our kids seeing dad without his beard because I KNEW right then WHY.
> 
> Anyway all of this leaves me with very little respect for him, I am certainly not attracted to him anymore. On the rare occasions we actually do have sex all I can think is how maybe he wishes I had him tied up or something- which is something that would NEVER happen here. I am not interested at all.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

This is always a very difficult call. 

In some cases its obvious - if your partners kink involves something physically unpleasant to you, it seems completely reasonable to reject it. OTOH if there is nothing physically unpleasant, but its disturbing (say they want to be spanked), its really tricky. The conflict between "why not" and "that is perverted" is difficult to resolve. 

Since i'm the kinkier one in my relationship, my inclination is to say that when practical, entertaining your partners kinks is a great thing to do - but my position on this is very biased. 

I completely agree with you that letting potential partners know about kinks early is vital. Sadly there is a social stigma against some types of (harmless) kinks, and it can take a long time for someone to become comfortable admitting them. 

Closer to topic, I wonder if watching porn allows someone with a kink to feel more accepted because they see other people engaging in, and presumably other people watching that kink. There is the fair question of whether porn *causes* kinks but I suspect not. I don't know if there are any studies. 







notmyjamie said:


> snip
> 
> .... I try to be as accommodating as I can with my partner but some things are just not in my wheelhouse. But, unlike your husband, I try to be honest and upfront with my partners early on so they know what I like and what is a hard no for me so if we don't match up we can move along to find someone who does. Your husband should have done that long ago.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

notmyjamie said:


> I feel like most of the men that I've gotten to "know" on this forum would not do that. I've read a bunch of posts that say that wanting porn over your actual wife is a real problem. I know very few men who, when given the chance to have sex with their partner would say "no, thanks, I'll just go watch this video" I think most view porn because they don't get to have sex with their partner which is a whole other problem in a marriage. Or they are viewing it with their partner as a shared experience and foreplay.
> 
> 
> 
> The few who would defend him are probably doing the very same thing and have no insight into how screwed up their lives have become. I find that sad really.



I don’t typically use porn. But I do think it can have its place. Some women seem to have weird hang ups about it and to them, it means that the guy is ‘cheating’ with the woman he is watching a sex scene (they think he must automatically be imagining having sex with her which is very strange).
If the guy prefers porn over wife: that’s a problem. If the guy watches porn occasionally, when the wife is not available: I see no problem with this at all.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

CraigBesuden said:


> Often times people want to convert something they love (a hobby) into a business. It ends up ruining their enjoyment of the hobby.
> 
> Perhaps he could write BDSM erotica and sell it on the Kindle. Make him crank out a large volume of stories. It will bring you some money and, in a matter of months, ruin his fetish.


OMG this reminds me of a documentary I came across one day. A father died and a son inherited the estate. While going through things he discovered his parents were prolific authors of smutty stories. So much so there were enough manuscripts to fill a transfer truck. He had to go through all of it in order to settle the estate. It was such a surreal experience that he made it into a documentary. 

I could not bring myself to watch it because the idea is so messed up. I tried to google it, but this documentary seems pretty ungooglable. 

Cheers, 
Badsanta


----------



## Mrs.K (Apr 12, 2012)

uhtred said:


> Kinks are not particularly unusual but they are a problem if they are not something compatible with a partner. His kink is not unusual.
> 
> He has kinks that he wants / needs. That is a bit difficult to understand for someone who doesn't have kinks.
> 
> ...




I have spent the better part of my marriage trying to work this out! I have compromised for him, I have stepped over lines I don't care for because I love him but it is never enough. Now I am completely fed up. 

I have used those exact words in conversation with him "we are incompatible", he doesn't agree. I am sure in his head that he does but he will not admit it. 

Another thing I will say is I am speaking freely here but I am trying to do all of this gently without embarrassing him. I know bondage isn't a strange fetish but doing it alone isn't considered strange?


----------



## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Mrs.K said:


> I have spent the better part of my marriage trying to work this out! I have compromised for him, I have stepped over lines I don't care for because I love him but it is never enough. Now I am completely fed up.
> 
> I have used those exact words in conversation with him "we are incompatible", he doesn't agree. I am sure in his head that he does but he will not admit it.
> 
> Another thing I will say is I am speaking freely here but I am trying to do all of this gently without embarrassing him. I know bondage isn't a strange fetish but doing it alone isn't considered strange?


Everything sexual, no matter how crazy or vanilla, is strange to someone who isn’t into it.


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

He may or may not believe the whole situation is at the quit porn or we're divorcing stage, or you're at the stage of "don't have to wonder if we're incompatible, we are" scenario. 

If you're already there, the rest is moot. 

If there can be a middle ground of sexual activities, sans porn, that you feel is desired and possible, that's a different story.

Honestly, without condemnation of anyone, it sounds like you're ready to split anyway. 

Porn use that itself causes divides and rifts between spouses is bad.


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Who hasn't tied their wife up at least once?

Sorry for the side bar quick poll. 😉


----------



## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Who hasn't tied their wife up at least once?
> 
> Sorry for the side bar quick poll. 😉


Japanese silk rope or leather?


----------



## Mrs.K (Apr 12, 2012)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Who hasn't tied their wife up at least once?
> 
> Sorry for the side bar quick poll. 😉




If only it were that simple! I wouldn't be here complaining about it!


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Japanese silk rope!

True story. Multiple chapters.

😎


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

I hear you.

It will get better.

😊


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Mrs.K said:


> If only it were that simple! I wouldn't be here complaining about it!


Exactly!

I think next time a husband is betrayed I'll make jokes about penis size and see how that goes over.

Seriously, the amount of insensitivity is appalling.

Someone is IN PAIN.

And people keep vacillating between calling her a prude and joking about rope.

It's kind of sickening.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

If either of you thinks you are incompatible, then you are in compatible. If the limit of what you are comfortable doing, and he needs to be happy don't overlap, then you are not compatible. 

I guess I'm just saying that it doesn't need to be anyone's fault. Find a fair way to end things so you can both find compatible partners. 


How common a fetish is doesn't really matter. Self bondage isn't all that unusual. In this case I was assuming he was doing it because you didn't want to do it with him. 

If he is into stranger things that is OK too - for him. That doesn't mean that you need to do those things.


I'm trying to separate the ideas that what he wants is "bad" in some way, from the very real problem that what he wants isn't what you want. 






Mrs.K said:


> I have spent the better part of my marriage trying to work this out! I have compromised for him, I have stepped over lines I don't care for because I love him but it is never enough. Now I am completely fed up.
> 
> I have used those exact words in conversation with him "we are incompatible", he doesn't agree. I am sure in his head that he does but he will not admit it.
> 
> Another thing I will say is I am speaking freely here but I am trying to do all of this gently without embarrassing him. I know bondage isn't a strange fetish but doing it alone isn't considered strange?


----------



## Mrs.K (Apr 12, 2012)

Fozzy said:


> Everything sexual, no matter how crazy or vanilla, is strange to someone who isn’t into it.




The acts themselves are not strange to me. The fact that he would rather do his own thing all alone is the strange part to me. I have been more than accommodating.. nothing I do is good enough though. I have tried letting him be himself but he will end up pushing until he does something that he knows I am not comfortable with. If your partner tells you "I will do all these things you want to do but I do not want tape on my mouth" would you keep pushing until you got your way? or would you just be happy with the fact that person is willing to compromise and respect their wishes?

The other issue is I am not gonna tie him up and put tape on him either, and if I did it would be forced and so how could anyone be enjoying themselves?? He can't even seem to manage to figure out what role it is that he wants anyway. Either way he has made the choice to do his own thing and be fine in a sexless marriage.


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Mrs.K said:


> The acts themselves are not strange to me. The fact that he would rather do his own thing all alone is the strange part to me. I have been more than accommodating.. nothing I do is good enough though. I have tried letting him be himself but he will end up pushing until he does something that he knows I am not comfortable with. If your partner tells you "I will do all these things you want to do but I do not want tape on my mouth" would you keep pushing until you got your way? or would you just be happy with the fact that person is willing to compromise and respect their wishes?
> 
> The other issue is I am not gonna tie him up and put tape on him either, and if I did it would be forced and so how could anyone be enjoying themselves?? He can't even seem to manage to figure out what role it is that he wants anyway. Either way he has made the choice to do his own thing and be fine in a sexless marriage.


It has to be a balance, if both parties are playing. Once a comfort limit is passed it's no longer fun, whatever the game.

He's fortunate you've tried to go along up to certain limits.

Nothing wrong with that.


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Mrs.K said:


> I know bondage isn't a strange fetish but doing it alone isn't considered strange?


Some bad advice here....

The idea of self bondage is a rather awkward conundrum. Theoretically there is a dominant person and a submissive person. With self bondage this becomes one and the same in that a person gives up control in a way that they fully control. 

However in BDSM it is actually very common for the submissive person to actually be the dominant one. In that the submissive person dictates exactly how they wish to be dominated and the "dominant" person ends up trying to submit themselves to those instructions. This does not work for obvious reasons. It is known as "topping from the bottom." 

I once read an account of a couple where the man wanted to be dominated. It upset him very much that his female partner ONLY enjoyed doing it in the ways that he genuinely disliked as opposed to all the ways he preferred to be dominated. But at the same time the man was too happy to have a genuinely dominant woman to give it up. 

So if your husband has a fetish for bondage, you might have the perfect story line to make him clean up his act. You dominate him by taking away his preferred porn and replace it with something humiliating (I know you refrain from doing this, but it could be just between the two of you) like requiring him to watch erotic video that YOU choose while he is blindfolded. Since he can't be tied up by you, have him tie himself up instead! Then blindfold him and give him some headphones playing some silly disco music from the 60s






Then you can tell him if he wants something a little more enjoyable that he will have to promise to be better to you! Then he will do whatever you want! 

Badsanta


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

badsanta said:


> Some bad advice here....
> 
> The idea of self bondage is a rather awkward conundrum. Theoretically there is a dominant person and a submissive person. With self bondage this becomes one and the same in that a person gives up control in a way that they fully control.
> 
> ...



Of course, the solution for being disgusted is to be disgusting. LOLOLOLOLOL

I don;t think most people here have the slightest clue what Mrs K is feeling.

Note: I am not calling this fetish disgusting. But surely thinking people can understand that the solution to doing something she is NOT comfortable with is NOT to ramp it up and do more of it.

Good grief...

Why can't the solution be for HIM to stop the crap he knows hurts her and STOP THE PORN?????????


----------



## Mrs.K (Apr 12, 2012)

Please everyone allow me better to explain my use of the word disgusting. I am coming from a place of hurt remember.. I didn't mean to imply that the actual fetish is disgusting but there are actions that go along with said fetish that disgust me. First and foremost the fact that he has replaced sex with his wife for this and next is that we will all be hanging out as a family and the next thing you know he has vanished into the bathroom for an hour or more and that is what he is doing.

I realize my use of the word disgusting without a better explanation made me sound rude and narrow minded.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

I don’t understand what the issue is. The husband has a kink that he can’t get from his wife. His wife is neither willing nor comfortable giving it to him. He gets it from porn so that he doesn’t need to pester his wife for it and she doesn’t need to feel uncomfortable or violated giving it to him.
What negative effect did it have apart from the wife feeling disgusted with him?
Has he stopped having sex with you completely? Has he locked himself int he room for weeks only doing one thing? Has he become a murderous criminal? 
People need to get a reality check. 

Let me see...it’s like if you wanted to get a very expensive handbag and your husband would not only refuse getting it for you but would also have a massive meltdown if he caught you looking at expensive handbags online.

You can stop someone getting something they want (by not giving it to them) but you can’t stop someone wanting it nor is it reasonable to expect them to. This is not an especially unusual kink. It’s only bad if it becomes an obsession. 

Controlling husbands’ browser history often becomes more about ‘obedience’ and control rather than anything else (or an excuse to justify their resentment towards their partner).



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mrs.K (Apr 12, 2012)

InMyPrime said:


> I don’t understand what the issue is. The husband has a kink that he can’t get from his wife. His wife is neither willing nor comfortable giving it to him. He gets it from porn so that he doesn’t need to pester his wife for it and she doesn’t need to feel uncomfortable or violated giving it to him.
> What negative effect did it have apart from the wife feeling disgusted with him?
> Has he stopped having sex with you completely? Has he locked himself int he room for weeks only doing one thing? Has he become a murderous criminal?
> People need to get a reality check.
> ...




Quick summary since you didn't see my other posts (which i don't expect you to read through each one )

I have been very willing in the past to do things that I don't like and even things that I am not comfortable with for him because I love him but whenever I do, it is never ever enough and he pushes for the couple things I am not comfortable with.

We only have sex once every few months.. I am not unwilling and I do not reject/refuse him. He does his own thing though and he has left me out of it.

Two years ago he told me he was addicted to porn and he didn't want to be anymore, he gave it up. All areas of marriage improved for some time. Within the last couple of months I have had a feeling he was back into it. Even with that strong feeling this morning was the very first time I looked at one of his electronic devices. I almost didn't want to because I didn't want to be heartbroken, AGAIN. But I did. He could care less how I feel or promises he made to me OR himself because he left it right out in the open for me to see. 

This isn't a case of I am being super jealous and insecure, he told me he has an addiction, he told me he understood the damage it was doing to our marriage he gave it up and here we are again.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

InMyPrime said:


> I don’t understand what the issue is. The husband has a kink that he can’t get from his wife. His wife is neither willing nor comfortable giving it to him. He gets it from porn so that he doesn’t need to pester his wife for it and she doesn’t need to feel uncomfortable or violated giving it to him.
> What negative effect did it have apart from the wife feeling disgusted with him?
> Has he stopped having sex with you completely? Has he locked himself int he room for weeks only doing one thing? Has he become a murderous criminal?
> People need to get a reality check.
> ...


Which it appears to be since he'd rather spank to the kinky porn than make love to his wife. It appears to be more in place of than in addition to the rest of their sex life. 

I also sympathize with the turn off that comes with someone having that particular kink. Most (or at least many) wives wan their husbands to be in control. I know if I was looking for that in a sexual relationship, my wife would lose interest in me pretty quick, _even if I wasn't spanking to the porn of it. _

As for the handbag analogy, that's pretty thin. I look at lots of expensive mountain bikes. My wife looks at lots of expensive clothes... but neither of us consummates the gawking with physical action, especially physical action that comes at the expense of our intimate time together. And in the odd circumstance that one of us does acquire the item, it is with the other's enthusiastic consent. 

To be clear, none of this is judgment... just an acknowledgment of incompatibility. Just as you can't make the guy not like fantasizing about being the sub in a BDSM scenario, you can't make the gal like wanting to be the dom in a BDSM scenarion. Sure, you can tell her to at least try for her husband's sake if she really loves him, but that's no different than telling him to chill out for his wife's sake if he really loves her. More importantly, even if she does try, and even gets good at it and delivers him the pleasure he thinks he will get out of it, that can't eliminate her aversion to a man who wants to be dominated if that's not her thing.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> To be clear, none of this is judgment... just an acknowledgment of incompatibility. Just as you can't make the guy not like fantasizing about being the sub in a BDSM scenario, you can't make the gal like wanting to be the dom in a BDSM scenarion.



As always with you, I am getting thrown a straw man. She is perfectly within her right not to want to participate in his BDSM fantasies. He is perfectly within his rights taking it ‘private’ and jerking off to porn if he feels like it. I think forbidding/controlling porn usage and being ‘heartbroken’ about it, is a separate issue and IMV overstepping it a bit. As is his reluctance to attend to her kinks (if she has any).

I can’t relate to that particular kink either but people have all kinds of kinks. 

And I hate to be taking sides as we are only getting one side of it. I am only providing this view for the sake of balance because I know reality is typically more complicated than this. I have no clue what the husband would have to say about it. (He might not say much, if he still has the tape stuck to his mouth ).



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> InMyPrime said:
> 
> 
> > I don’t understand what the issue is. The husband has a kink that he can’t get from his wife. His wife is neither willing nor comfortable giving it to him. He gets it from porn so that he doesn’t need to pester his wife for it and she doesn’t need to feel uncomfortable or violated giving it to him.
> ...


Exactly

Some of the men here are either incapable of or are unwilling to see the actual issue.

Truly sad.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

InMyPrime said:


> As always with you, I am getting thrown a straw man. She is perfectly within her right not to want to participate in his BDSM fantasies. He is perfectly within his rights taking it ‘private’ and jerking off to porn if he feels like it. *I think forbidding/controlling porn usage and being ‘heartbroken’ about it, is a separate issue and IMV overstepping it a bit. *As is his reluctance to attend to her kinks (if she has any).
> 
> I can’t relate to that particular kink either but people have all kinds of kinks.
> 
> ...


Not sure where the strawman accusation comes from. I've not falsely attributed any argument here. (nor have I ever with you as far as I know). 

So let's be clear here and explicitly state your point--exactly as bolded above. Forbidding porn usage is only overstepping if the porn usage is not taking the place of a healthy and mutually satisfying sexual relationship... which it appears to be doing in this case (admittedly, yes, we are only getting one side of the story and she may have done other things to turn him off as well, but in the absence of any other information, I'm not going to make that assumption). 

Personally, I see nothing out of bounds at being upset by finding out you're married to a man who can't be happy unless he's getting humiliated or spanked or whatever, just as we wouldn't find it out of bounds to be unhappy finding out your husband really, really wants a threesome, or wants to be peed on or wants a whole lot of other things that many people would find repulsive. The sub thing is especially thorny because it goes beyond just the physical act itself, but to the underlying psyche that desires it... it's not the kind of psychological makeup most women will find sexually desirable. 

It's the sort of thing that's best discovered earlier in the relationship when determining whether or not to sever ties is easier. 

As for strawmen.... I wasn't taking sides. What I said was an acknowledgement of incompatibility. That in no way takes one side over the other.


----------



## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Mrs.K said:


> Quick summary since you didn't see my other posts (which i don't expect you to read through each one )
> 
> I have been very willing in the past to do things that I don't like and even things that I am not comfortable with for him because I love him but whenever I do, it is never ever enough and he pushes for the couple things I am not comfortable with.
> 
> ...


I bolded the bits that point out that this is in fact *an addiction*. He is unable to control it himself. Every addiction comes down to this. He will not just quit it once. He will quit it again and again and again. But He will still be addicted. 

Now I have told you the Truth. And I fully acknowledge that this hurts. Addictions tear up relationships, wreck families, break people, and it Hurts a lot. 12 step programs seem to be the only effective treatment for addiction. It requires a group, It needs support. And you might not be the person who can support him in this. 
Sorry.


----------



## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

Mr. Nail said:


> ....this is in fact *an addiction*.


Neurons that fire together, wire together.

Barring an act of Divine providence, this is not something you just quit.


----------



## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

CatholicDad said:


> I wonder what Jews think about masturbation. Seems sad that Protestants are fine with it.


Hmmmm …. What DO Jews think about masturbation? Jesus was a Jew. Did he have anything to say about it in the NT? Not that I recall. Damn those heretical Protestants for being okay with masturbation. Guess their salvation is a crap-shoot, at best.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Properly motivated people quit addictions every day.


----------



## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Properly motivated people quit addictions every day.


I think its perhaps more accurate to say people replace their destructive addictions with other less destructive ones.


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Mrs.K said:


> Quick summary since you didn't see my other posts (which i don't expect you to read through each one )
> 
> I have been very willing in the past to do things that I don't like and even things that I am not comfortable with for him because I love him but whenever I do, it is never ever enough and he pushes for the couple things I am not comfortable with.
> 
> ...


If I can play devil's advocate here. First I want to acknowledge that we do not know the details of your husband's kinks/fetishes other than it may be BDSM related and it makes you feel uncomfortable because he does not respect your boundaries when you try to accommodate. For whatever reason he turns to porn and self BDSM perhaps compulsively in a way that takes an extreme emotional toll on the marriage. 

So if your husband stated he had an addiction to this behavior and acknowledged the problems it was causing, what methods did he use to stop? 

Generally speaking "accountability" becomes part of the process. This would be where he turns over complete access to all his devices so that you can be aware of a relapse and address it BEFORE it gets too bad again. You make it even seem as if he wanted to get caught. Yet above you sound as if you do not want to take on any role for helping your husband be accountable because you hesitated to even check. By no means am I blaming you for not taking on this role, I am trying to point out the dynamics here from a different point of view. Imagine if he relapsed and you discovered this very early and confronted him about it? It would be uncomfortable, but it would also send a very strong message to him that you care and are willing to help as opposed to ignoring his problem. 

The second issue to deal with is that when it comes to compulsive or addictive behaviors, it is too easy to try and substitute with something equally as problematic to ease the discomfort of trying to change a bad habit. I'm not sure if you catered to this, but it sounds as if you did by perhaps trying to accommodate some of his fetishes and allowing him to push you too far. YES, it is important to try and remove "shame" from equation and do not judge with feeling of disgust, but at the same time you don't want to encourage more of behaviors that are problematic. (that why my advise in a previous post was labeled as bad advice for the BDSM idea). 

Your strategy to deal with this would be to focus on helping your husband let go of shame as well as stress. Instead of accommodating his BDSM ideas in the bedroom you might replace that with various forms of exercise. Perhaps something outdoors, challenging, and involving a little bit of adrenaline. Perhaps an indoor rock climbing venue where he can play with ropes. By doing something of this nature you help his body and mind eliminate stress. What is important is that this needs to be an ongoing an active effort that can hopefully be mutually beneficial and enjoyable for both of you. Perhaps you don't want ropes and harnesses in the bedroom, well then they should be OK outside for a zip line. Just don't allow it in the bedroom! 

In the bedroom you probably want to focus on just keeping things simple and natural as possible. Set a boundary that adrenaline and excitement is for outdoor exercise and the bedroom is a place to relax and enjoy pleasure. If he wants ropes in the bedroom, limit that to just talking about your next outdoor fun ideas of exercising together. 

Hope that helps, 
Badsanta


----------



## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

CraigBesuden said:


> What are your issues with porn? Is it your man lusting after another woman’s image? Would you provide him with scantily clad pictures of yourself?
> 
> What if he uses a catalog underwear section - is that cheating?
> 
> ...


This is such an interesting question for me, because my thoughts on it have changed almost 180 in the past year, and I'm not sure how I could go from being SO afraid and intimidated and _threatened_ by it, to now being more practical and understanding of it (if MY husband were to look at it) -- I don't know exactly HOW I am now ok with it, or if that will change back to insecurity at some point, or what, but I'm really, really NOT threatened by it, if he does look anymore!

My husband has never been a big porn user, online porn anyway, I'm not sure of anything else, but I always KNEW he would look here and there. Our sex life never suffered, really. Last year, I confronted him about it, feeling BAD and like I must be a total disappointment if he needed to turn to porn to "get hard"; and we really talked about it, especially him explaining to me HOW he sees porn and the women in it (he's not comparing me to them at all), etc etc. And he promised to give it up, and left his phone with me all the time so I would be sure, blah blah....

But here's the thing....
...after that, when he had stopped looking at any sexy images, and positions and stuff, suddenly, he just wasn't excited about sex anymore. We still HAD sex, but he wasn't as FUN and excited about it like before....and I hated that. And I guess it made me realize that for him at least, viewing SEX was a really important thing for him to stay in a sexual frame of mind - does that make sense?? So I told him I didn't care anymore what he looked at online, as long as he PROMISED that if he saw something that he liked more than ME, he would tell me, so I could try to fix that about myself (to which he just laughed at me for being "silly") (but that was my biggest fear with porn). I kind of figured out that if it didn't impact me/us in a bad way, he should be able to do whatever he wanted and needed to do to be a whole sexual person, which makes him very exciting to be with sexually!
And I could understand, as he's now in his mid/late 50s (YIKES! Lol!!), that keeping his BRAIN sexually stimulated made it easier for him to get/be in the mood for ME!!!:grin2: If I start to notice anything negative with our sex life, it's my responsibility to bring it up (which is _*very difficult*_ for me!!), so it's actually helping me talk more directly about what I want sexually.

I DO want to point out that he's never _chosen_ porn/masturbating over me, he has always been very interested in sex with me, he doesn't ask me to do crazy porn stuff, he's not "addicted" -- so I know my situation is very different than other women who take a much harder line against it, and I don't blame them. 

But for us, since he was able to TALK to me and be HONEST about it, and I CHOSE to UNDERSTAND and TRUST what he was saying, I've been able to let it go and let him be.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Prodigal said:


> Hmmmm …. What DO Jews think about masturbation? Jesus was a Jew. Did he have anything to say about it in the NT? Not that I recall. Damn those heretical Protestants for being okay with masturbation. Guess their salvation is a crap-shoot, at best.




Those pages that talk about masturbation probably got a bit sticky in places...So we will never know.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

badsanta said:


> If I can play devil's advocate here. First I want to acknowledge that we do not know the details of your husband's kinks/fetishes other than it may be BDSM related and it makes you feel uncomfortable because he does not respect your boundaries when you try to accommodate



We also do not know whether he is even addicted to anything. We know that his wife thinks he is addicted because she asked him to stop looking at porn and he didn’t.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

LisaDiane said:


> This is such an interesting question for me, because my thoughts on it have changed almost 180 in the past year, and I'm not sure how I could go from being SO afraid and intimidated and _threatened_ by it, to now being more practical and understanding of it (if MY husband were to look at it) -- I don't know exactly HOW I am now ok with it, or if that will change back to insecurity at some point, or what, but I'm really, really NOT threatened by it, if he does look anymore!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Can I give you a medal  please. You need to give a TED talk or something so that other women can understand.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mrs.K (Apr 12, 2012)

badsanta said:


> If I can play devil's advocate here. First I want to acknowledge that we do not know the details of your husband's kinks/fetishes other than it may be BDSM related and it makes you feel uncomfortable because he does not respect your boundaries when you try to accommodate. For whatever reason he turns to porn and self BDSM perhaps compulsively in a way that takes an extreme emotional toll on the marriage.
> 
> So if your husband stated he had an addiction to this behavior and acknowledged the problems it was causing, what methods did he use to stop?
> 
> ...




I have to admit your "bad advice" did make me giggle. So last time he gave it up a couple of years ago it was after a mens retreat with church, he had confided in some people and did not tell me much about the steps being taken, I just trusted that he was making the change and I guess I acted like an ostrich and stuck my head in the sand. Maybe that was the wrong move. I also vowed to stop looking at his phone and whatever other device he had to show him that I trusted him and I stuck to that until the other morning.

I don't know why I haven't said anything yet, but I think it is mostly because I am so mentally and physically exhausted and maybe part of me is enjoying watching him sweat it out, wondering if I am ever going to say anything. I am not saying I am right to do this but I am just being honest. I am not being mean though.. I am still making his lunches for work, doing all that I usually do for him, he must be very confused right now. I guess part of me is hoping that HE will take the initiative to start the conversation.

You are right though it would come across as caring if I had done something early on when I started to figure it out but there are many areas where I feel not cared about by him so again.. not very mature but maybe I want him to feel the same way.

I wish so badly I could encourage him to get into something physical or an activity. One thing I will say about him is he is an extremely hard worker and he works a ton and has a very long commute each day so there isn't much time left. On the flip side he is very unhealthy in the way he eats and gets no activity. He has gained a lot of weight and it makes me annoyed that I have been left to feel bad about myself when I have never let his weight gain bother me, it didn't change my attraction towards him but his actions sure have.


----------



## Mrs.K (Apr 12, 2012)

InMyPrime said:


> Can I give you a medal  please. You need to give a TED talk or something so that other women can understand.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




I used to feel the same way as Lisa and I think that is a very healthy way to think about it. The difference between her and I and some other women is her husband is not replacing their sex life with porn.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Mrs.K said:


> I used to feel the same way as Lisa and I think that is a very healthy way to think about it. The difference between her and I and some other women is her husband is not replacing their sex life with porn.



Have you tried tying and beating him up for watching porn? I have a feeling this might REALLY drive the point home for him...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Mrs.K said:


> So last time he gave it up a couple of years ago it was after a mens retreat with church



Yikes...a bunch of men from church ‘retreating’ together....Don’t know how I would feel about that (not that there’s anything wrong with that...)



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I'm sorry if I missed this. Is he turning you down for sex and watching porn instead? I had misunderstood and thought there were sexual things he wanted that you were not comfortable with, but that you still had conventional sex. (there are a couple of threads, so its easy to get lost) 





Mrs.K said:


> I used to feel the same way as Lisa and I think that is a very healthy way to think about it. The difference between her and I and some other women is her husband is not replacing their sex life with porn.


----------



## Mrs.K (Apr 12, 2012)

InMyPrime said:


> We also do not know whether he is even addicted to anything. We know that his wife thinks he is addicted because she asked him to stop looking at porn and he didn’t.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I know you are only getting one side of the story here and that is mine, you don't have to believe it, but it is true. I don't think he is addicted because I asked him to stop and he started back up. I think he is addicted because a couple of years ago we had an argument after six months without sex. There was no fighting, no bickering leading up to it, aside from the no sex we were getting along fine. HE is the one that told me he was addicted to it and he wanted to stop. He confided in someone close to him and then started going to a support group that deals with this issue. I did not just decide he was addicted to it because he wouldn't stop.

I did not look through his phone, tablet or anything until one time the other morning. Once again we are back to not having sex and sure enough he was back at it. I don't know why you are so insistent that it is as simple as me not wanting him to look at it, I didn't care what he was doing before we stopped having sex. I am 37 years old and sex 4-5 times a year isn't cutting it for me.


----------



## Mrs.K (Apr 12, 2012)

uhtred said:


> I'm sorry if I missed this. Is he turning you down for sex and watching porn instead? I had misunderstood and thought there were sexual things he wanted that you were not comfortable with, but that you still had conventional sex. (there are a couple of threads, so its easy to get lost)



Yes since he has been heavy on the porn use we do not have sex, sometimes we do once every 3 months, sometimes it stretches to 6 months.


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Mrs.K said:


> InMyPrime said:
> 
> 
> > We also do not know whether he is even addicted to anything. We know that his wife thinks he is addicted because she asked him to stop looking at porn and he didn’t.
> ...


Your posts are very clear. This isn't a matter of people who can't understand.

This is a case of willful misunderstanding because either porn is so important or they are so insensitive they are just messing with you. 😞


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

That is a huge problem. I'm sorry you are in that situation and I missed it. 

I think one source of confusion in the porn discussion is that some women object to their partners watching porn, even though that use is due to the man having a higher sex drive and he never turns them down for any sort of sex they want. In other cases women object to porn use because their partner is rejecting them for sex, and watching porn instead (your case)

In that second case where someone is being rejected, I think porn is a huge problem. 

In the first, if it is just filling the gap between a LD and HD partner I think its fine.







Mrs.K said:


> Yes since he has been heavy on the porn use we do not have sex, sometimes we do once every 3 months, sometimes it stretches to 6 months.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Mrs.K said:


> I know you are only getting one side of the story here and that is mine, you don't have to believe it, but it is true. I don't think he is addicted because I asked him to stop and he started back up. I think he is addicted because a couple of years ago we had an argument after six months without sex. There was no fighting, no bickering leading up to it, aside from the no sex we were getting along fine. HE is the one that told me he was addicted to it and he wanted to stop. He confided in someone close to him and then started going to a support group that deals with this issue. I did not just decide he was addicted to it because he wouldn't stop.
> 
> 
> 
> I did not look through his phone, tablet or anything until one time the other morning. Once again we are back to not having sex and sure enough he was back at it. I don't know why you are so insistent that it is as simple as me not wanting him to look at it, I didn't care what he was doing before we stopped having sex. I am 37 years old and sex 4-5 times a year isn't cutting it for me.




I am sorry I have out the impression that i don’t believe you. It’s not the case, it’s just these things are usually complicated and not clear cut.
My tone was maybe a bit weird because of how others reply, not because of anything you said...I should maybe not read other people’s reply...

Did you actually approach him for sex and he declined or was he just not interested? 

The problem is that church often makes such a taboo out of many things, including masturbation and porn, that many people just resign and admit to being broken individuals and sinning, rather than perhaps take a more measured approach, realising that masturbation is normal and that watching porn doesn’t have to mean you are automatically cheating and being a horrible human being. This can create a domino effect.

I think I should still express that I’m sorry your marriage and sexual life has not turned out how you imagined and that hopefully you both will find a way to both be satisfied somehow.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mrs.K (Apr 12, 2012)

Did you actually approach him for sex and he declined or was he just not interested? 



A combination of both. Times I have asked if he wanted to he was tired, his knee hurt, he had to get up early.. etc. Then he will spend an hour in the bathroom and go to bed. Other times I have tried initiating while we are in bed, he will either play dumb, pretend to sleep or just turn over.

BELIEVE ME.. I have taken into consideration that maybe he is not attracted to me anymore, I have asked him he says he is, but at times when I feel maybe he is not I have tried making improvements on how I look (which my looks have not changed much over the years.. his have) but that is an awful lot of pressure to take on.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Its very likely this is his issue, not yours. Most people who love their partners never lose their attraction to them. 




Mrs.K said:


> Did you actually approach him for sex and he declined or was he just not interested?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

InMyPrime said:


> Can I give you a medal  please. You need to give a TED talk or something so that other women can understand.


Lol!! I would be happy to, but would it really help anyone? Like I said, EVERYONE'S situation is so different - I wouldn't want to encourage others to think like me if it meant they would be unhappy or worse, would be enabling a real problem!


----------



## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Mrs.K said:


> I used to feel the same way as Lisa and I think that is a very healthy way to think about it. The difference between her and I and some other women is her husband is not replacing their sex life with porn.



This is absolutely right, Mrs.K, and if I was in your situation, I would be very hurt and resentful, and CONFRONTATIONAL!!

Since it really does sound like an addiction, would it help to treat him like he was addicted to drugs or alcohol? If it were me, I would tell him seriously and right away that I won't stay with him if he continues to "use" his drug -- he either gets help, or he can go stay somewhere else (I haven't read alot of your other posts, so I don't know if you have confronted him this latest time). He needs to plug-in to your marriage or go "drug" himself to death on his own. I would not let it continue in secret, and pretend I didn't know (if you are even doing that).

I think somehow because porn/sex is such a personal issue between a couple, it's natural to take it much more personally than if one of the couple became addicted to drugs or alcohol -- porn addiction stabs at the heart of the other person's self-worth more than actual substance abuse. But they are technically the same thing, and I would TRY to think of it that way, and treat it that way. It's such an awful situation and I hate that you (and so many others) are going through it!


----------



## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Mrs.K said:


> Did you actually approach him for sex and he declined or was he just not interested?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This HURTS me to think about you going through - I would be CRUSHED.
From everything you've posted about your situation (that I've read), I don't think it has ANYTHING to do with YOU, anymore than we say an alcoholic drinks too much because his wife is a nag (we DON'T!). 
Please don't blame yourself - your husband is most likely addicted to the rush of excitement that porn gives him, the endorphin rush, and isn't a reflection on you whatsoever. He is only thinking of himself - if he tries to blame you at all, just see it as the typical addict response of deflection and blame-shifting. He's not weak or disgusting, he's being held hostage to his addiction, and is out of control. This isn't something that most people can kick by themselves, and it's as intoxicating as heroin - those endorphins are very powerful, and there are some people who's brain chemistry makes them predisposed to getting addicted. 

This ISN'T about YOU!


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Mrs.K said:


> I know you are only getting one side of the story here and that is mine, you don't have to believe it, but it is true. I don't think he is addicted because I asked him to stop and he started back up. I think he is addicted because a couple of years ago we had an argument after six months without sex. There was no fighting, no bickering leading up to it, aside from the no sex we were getting along fine. HE is the one that told me he was addicted to it and he wanted to stop. He confided in someone close to him and then started going to a support group that deals with this issue. I did not just decide he was addicted to it because he wouldn't stop.
> 
> I did not look through his phone, tablet or anything until one time the other morning. Once again we are back to not having sex and sure enough he was back at it. I don't know why you are so insistent that it is as simple as me not wanting him to look at it, I didn't care what he was doing before we stopped having sex. I am 37 years old and sex 4-5 times a year isn't cutting it for me.


That one has severe reading comprehension problems and often derails threads. You have explained your situation very clearly.


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

ConanHub said:


> Mrs.K said:
> 
> 
> > I know you are only getting one side of the story here and that is mine, you don't have to believe it, but it is true. I don't think he is addicted because I asked him to stop and he started back up. I think he is addicted because a couple of years ago we had an argument after six months without sex. There was no fighting, no bickering leading up to it, aside from the no sex we were getting along fine. HE is the one that told me he was addicted to it and he wanted to stop. He confided in someone close to him and then started going to a support group that deals with this issue. I did not just decide he was addicted to it because he wouldn't stop.
> ...


Pretty much


----------



## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

badsanta said:


> Some bad advice here....
> 
> The idea of self bondage is a rather awkward conundrum. Theoretically there is a dominant person and a submissive person. With self bondage this becomes one and the same in that a person gives up control in a way that they fully control.
> 
> ...


Is this a see-through blindfold?:wink2: Didn't quite think that one through didja, BillyBob?

Is it strange or dangerous for one to engage in BDSM solo? Just ask David Carradine.


----------



## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

You can’t fix a porn problem with more porn.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

CraigBesuden said:


> I would think Mrs.K’s H is a good candidate for being pegged with a strap on. But not until he first pleasures you normally, in the fashion you desire.
> 
> You could give him the choice of watching a BDSM porn video while you are pulling his hair hard, spanking and pegging him. But if he so chooses, each time he watches a video, you increase the size of the toy a bit.


Well that escalated quickly.


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> CraigBesuden said:
> 
> 
> > I would think Mrs.K’s H is a good candidate for being pegged with a strap on. But not until he first pleasures you normally, in the fashion you desire.
> ...


It's really sad that people suggesting MORE PORN to fix the problem with porn.

It's so clueless ridiculous it would be funny if Mrs. K wasn't hurting so much.

Do people EVER use their brains????


----------



## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

You might want to check out RebootNation.org for guys rebooting their brains from porn.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Some people can drink (even heavily over extended periods) and never become alcoholics. Some people just are more prone to addiction I think. Dudes just get lost in the land of big jugs of all varieties and the easily available sex on demand without any work. They just can't get enough. Sometimes it less about addiction, then being with LD spouse or a spouse that repulses you, but whatever the case ...once it replaces sex, I can safely say that there is a problem.


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

CraigBesuden said:


> You might want to check out RebootNation.org for guys rebooting their brains from porn.


This site is closely tied to https://www.yourbrainonporn.com/ (in the main menu bar of the site) which is run by the husband of the lady that runs https://www.reuniting.info/

The people behind these sights are nice people but have an agenda to promote the idea that orgasms are the problem. They suggest that people and couples should explore a tantric lifestyle that is calm, peaceful, and avoids orgasm. 

This is OK, but people on those forums tend to go to extremes. And unfortunately the notion of orgasm denial is too easily associated with extreme fetishes such as enforced chastity, CBT, femdom, FLR, BDSM, and all sorts of other distorted things that will only make problems worse. 

The body is designed to orgasm and do so regularly in my opinion. If anyone has a problems associated with that being too compulsive of a behavior, then they probably just need more exercise.

Regards, 
Badsanta


----------



## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

I've missed several days of this, but want to try and explain why masturbating is wrong.

First, because it entails deriving sexual pleasure outside of marriage. 

Second, it does require full consent of the will, which makes it more wrong than an accidental wrong (such as a casual glance at an attractive member of the opposite sex). 

Third, Jesus did instruct us to take up our cross and follow him. There are also numerous mentions in the Bible to "deny yourself" and also not be a slave to your body and not give in to sensual desires.

I can't imagine that people will argue that it isn't specifically forbidden and therefore is allowed! That sounds like a lawyer trying to exploit a loophole. 

Showing someone your genitals isn't specifically forbidden either however is still wrong (and illegal, thankfully).


----------



## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

badsanta said:


> The people behind these sights are nice people but have an agenda to promote the idea that orgasms are the problem. They suggest that people and couples should explore a tantric lifestyle that is calm, peaceful, and avoids orgasm.



This is silly to me! I mean, if it makes some people happy, that's great, but it's not common sense in my mind -- I _think_ Tantric Sex and denying orgasms is based on the ancient belief that a person (maybe only men?) could become *immortal* if he denied enough orgasms....! 
I love the idea of taking lots of time with eachother sexually and being very sensual and connected (unless, of course, you need to get dinner started soon, or the laundry needs to go in the dryer, in which case, bring on a QUICKIE!!!>), but the rest of it seems counter-intuitive = wouldn't everyone feel LESS calm and peaceful if we walked around sexually aroused without release all the time??

And I'm sorry, but in MY world, orgasms are the SOLUTION!! Lol!


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

CatholicDad said:


> I've missed several days of this, but want to try and explain why masturbating is wrong.
> 
> First, because it entails deriving sexual pleasure outside of marriage.
> 
> ...


From a Christian perspective, I think you are absolutely correct. Saying porn is bad but that masturbation is ok, is comical.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

CatholicDad said:


> I've missed several days of this, but want to try and explain why masturbating is wrong.
> 
> First, because it entails deriving sexual pleasure outside of marriage.
> 
> ...


Showing someone your junk is forbidden. You should really start your own masturbation thread.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

CatholicDad said:


> I've missed several days of this, but want to try and explain why masturbating is wrong.
> 
> First, because it entails deriving sexual pleasure outside of marriage.
> 
> ...


Your constant virtue signaling is every bit as indulgent as any chronic masturbator (which I seem to recall you were at one time). You just replaced one self-serving addiction with another. Among the many wisdoms expressed in the bible, it warns us about people like you.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Mrs.K said:


> He knows exactly how I feel about it and it hasn't stopped him in the 16 years that we have been married. A couple years ago he said he was done with it and I believed him, I think he was done for a while but not sure how long..
> 
> I am so embarrassed to even say this but he is very much into bondage and it seems he would like to be the submissive- I have no interest in dominating him soooo where would that leave us? The most recent videos I found where just that. He also it would seem... uses tape over his mouth while he masturbates. I have been dealing with this for years and know all the signs. I became a little suspicious when he shaved his beard a few weeks ago. I knew it was something related and it was making me sick that it was such a focus from our kids seeing dad without his beard because I KNEW right then WHY.
> 
> Anyway all of this leaves me with very little respect for him, I am certainly not attracted to him anymore. On the rare occasions we actually do have sex all I can think is how maybe he wishes I had him tied up or something- which is something that would NEVER happen here. I am not interested at all.


That's so sad.:frown2: Do you think that by staying you are sort of enabling it? I knew a lady in your position who eventually said, right its me or the porn. He knew she meant it. Guess what, he stopped.


----------



## nypsychnurse (Jan 13, 2019)

The reasons I oppose porn use:
1. I don't like the idea of my man lusting after another woman's image...hell, I don't even like when my man tells me about a celebrity crush! 

2. My objection is not religious in nature at all, and I consider myself a very sexual being...I just hate the idea mentioned above...and I hate the fact that porn objectifies women.

3. I don't care what my man thinks about when he masturbates, and I don't want him to share either...I would never ask , nor would I want someone to question where my mind goes...

I had a friend, who told her husband she objected to his use of porn...made it very clear in fact...

She would find magazines hidden throughout the property, (tool shed and such) and was quite distressed by this...and made it very clear to him that it would not be tolerated.

I talked to him about this, and he made it very clear that his porn "was just a tool." He claimed to love her more than life itself, but was unwilling to compromise on his beliefs...

They are now divorced.

In the grand scheme of things...the wife felt disrespected...and I would too...
not everyone feels this way, and I respect that too...


----------



## Mrs.K (Apr 12, 2012)

Diana7 said:


> That's so sad.:frown2: Do you think that by staying you are sort of enabling it? I knew a lady in your position who eventually said, right its me or the porn. He knew she meant it. Guess what, he stopped.




I think only time will tell. Last blow up about it he quit it completely for a couple of years, recently started back up again. I was finally able to confront him today. We shall see if he understands how serious I am. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

nypsychnurse said:


> The reasons I oppose porn use:
> 1. I don't like the idea of my man lusting after another woman's image...hell, I don't even like when my man tells me about a celebrity crush!
> 
> *2. My objection is not religious in nature at all, and I consider myself a very sexual being...I just hate the idea mentioned above...and I hate the fact that porn objectifies women.
> ...


Regarding the bolded above...Not agreeing or disagreeing with your opinions, certainly not everyone's right to have their own opinions; just to share some perspectives and innate facts regarding same:

*2. Therefore anything that causes "objectification of women is bad" right?*

So all things such as sexy underthings, tight jeans, form fitting dresses, gowns, bathing suits, gym clothing, leggings, that give women the feeling and shows off they are "hot women"; marketing, store signage, commercials, fashion shows, make-up products, hair removal waxes, bikini and Brazilian waxes, cleavage enhancing bras, etc not to mention lingerie......

must all be condemned and stopped, because these certainly help objectify women as sexually as possible for each user of these products. They set out to highlight they can be objects of sexual desire.

Many, many women, young and older, want to know they can make a man (or woman, not to discriminate) want to have sex with them just by seeing them; and a man will want them more than the woman standing near them.

Many women want to know they can give a man a woody just by watching her walk across a room. Not just think they can, but know it. 

I'm not speaking all women all the time, but most women some of the time, and all women some of the time.

As a woman if she wants to be considered a hot woman, an object of a man's desire,when she's dressed to go dancing, and if she says no she may be giving a PC answer. (Or substitute by a woman, not to discriminate).

If one can say none of this is true in different shapes or variations they're fibbing to you.


----------



## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

Mrs.K said:


> I think only time will tell. Last blow up about it he quit it completely for a couple of years, recently started back up again. I was finally able to confront him today. We shall see if he understands how serious I am.


Good for you! I think it’s best to put the ball in his court. Fix it now or divorce - his choice.


----------



## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Regarding the bolded above...Not agreeing or disagreeing with your opinions, certainly not everyone's right to have their own opinions; just to share some perspectives and innate facts regarding same:
> 
> *2. Therefore anything that causes "objectification of women is bad" right?*
> 
> ...


I may stutter once in a while; but, even I couldn't make 'porn' sound like 'anything'.

Nice straw man you've got going.


----------



## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

A recent poll suggests 28% of porn is consumed by women.

So, roughly, 1/4 of the ''objectivization'' is of men, by women.

I assume that's bad too.


----------



## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

How does showing a person as sexy make that person an object?


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> CatholicDad said:
> 
> 
> > I've missed several days of this, but want to try and explain why masturbating is wrong.
> ...


One of the 7 things God hates isn't porn....but it IS haughty eyes and a proud heart.


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

OnTheFly said:


> A recent poll suggests 28% of porn is consumed by women.
> 
> So, roughly, 1/4 of the ''objectivization'' is of men, by women.
> 
> I assume that's bad too.


Well of course. Porn is porn. That includes 50 Shades.


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> nypsychnurse said:
> 
> 
> > The reasons I oppose porn use:
> ...


This is ridiculous.


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Blondilocks said:


> I may stutter once in a while; but, even I couldn't make 'porn' sound like 'anything'.
> 
> Nice straw man you've got going.


From 2. below, *so it's ok to you that other things "sexually objectify women" ?*

And, on that subject, see bolded in 3. below: and I'd ask, *is it a good bet she's not denying her mind might be going to naked Brad Pitt (or insert her non H fantasy of choice here) at times during mast. or sex perhaps?*

From OP post:

"2. My objection is not religious in nature at all, and I consider myself a very sexual being...I just hate the idea mentioned above...and I hate the fact that porn *objectifies* women.

"3. I don't care what my man thinks about when he masturbates, and I don't want him to share either...I would never ask , *nor would I want someone to question where my mind goes..."*

I'm not saying any of OPs thoughts aren't normal, typical, right, or wrong but as a whole the wording and topics have some incongruities in opinions and reflections.

I personally agree with what I think she's saying although her mind admittedly drifts towards "...." similar to Hs but he's getting slammed.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Its not easy to know the percentages. I think that tose are based on self-identification on porn sites and there are many reasons people might lie. 

Surveys are very inaccurate at representing lower probability choices.

Personally I don't care at all what percentage of porn is consumed by men or women.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Blondilocks said:


> Ragnar Ragnasson said:
> 
> 
> > Regarding the bolded above...Not agreeing or disagreeing with your opinions, certainly not everyone's right to have their own opinions; just to share some perspectives and innate facts regarding same:
> ...


Disagree. Women objectify themselves more often than not. Whats the point of dressing up like a hooker if you want people to love you for your personality?


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Re my post above, full disclosure; I like things that lend to a woman/women being exposed as sexual objects or sexual beings if you will, while at the same time I k ow that's not all they are, women are wonderful in many non sexual ways, made up of many wonderful components. 

But as a rule, women themselves want to believe they can make a man hard, anytime they want to.


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Disagree. Women objectify themselves more often than not. Whats the point of dressing up like a hooker if you want people to love you for your personality?


You're gettin' me!

Well said.


----------



## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

Women are the largest consumers of pornography. Romance novels are soft porn (erotica and erotic fiction).

They present men as being tall, muscular, rich and very well endowed, creating unrealistic expectations that ruin marriages.

https://goodmenproject.com/the-good-life/men-spend-less-on-porn-than-women/

https://www.crisismagazine.com/2016/romance-porn-women-addicted-think

http://www.iowastatedaily.com/opini...cle_3a3ac22e-a795-11e3-bbbb-0019bb2963f4.html


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

CraigBesuden said:


> Women are the largest consumers of pornography. Romance novels are soft porn.
> 
> https://goodmenproject.com/the-good-life/men-spend-less-on-porn-than-women/
> 
> ...


Yep.
How many such "novels" have a muscular kilted topless Scottish Highlander brandishing a large sword on the cover.

99% ?

Or maybe a swashbuckling pirate?

Not many such novels with Bill Gates on the cover.

Argue with that if you want. 😘


----------



## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

CraigBesuden said:


> Women are the largest consumers of pornography. Romance novels are soft porn.
> 
> They present men as being tall, muscular, rich and very well endowed, creating unrealistic expectations that ruin marriages.
> 
> ...


Not many ''dad bods'' on the cover of Harlequin's?

Edit: Ragnar beat me to it, and with a better example......*shakes fist in rage*


----------



## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

CatholicDad said:


> I've missed several days of this, but want to try and explain why masturbating is wrong.
> 
> First, because it entails deriving sexual pleasure outside of marriage.
> 
> ...



As a Christian (Baptist -- non-"religious"), I couldn't disagree more with your reasoning here -- I DO NOT think you've found the Biblical basis to declare that masturbation is "wrong"....

Your first reason is the only thing that could even MAYBE be considered, but for some couples, masturbation helps their marriage sexually, either by doing it together, or relieving tension in a HD spouse, or other ways I don't even know of.

Second, I don't know if I've ever read (or heard) anything in the Bible about something being "more" wrong, or "accidental wrongs"....as a matter of fact, I'm pretty sure that the Bible specifically states that ALL "sin" is the same in the eyes of God.

Your third point is too broad to use against masturbation, you can say the same about eating, listening to music, cuddling a kitten, etc etc - ANYTHING sensual shouldn't be done to the exclusion of everything else, but God doesn't FORBID us from enjoying them.

The part I bolded is more serious (to ME) --- this reasoning can be (and has been!) used to justify condemning anything and everything!! Applying it specifically to masturbation is YOUR preference - it is not Biblical.

And showing someone your genitals is only socially wrong - it would only be the "intent" of showing your genitals to someone that could make it morally wrong.

I know there are times that masturbation can become destructive or distracting, therefore unhealthy - we aren't supposed to have ANYTHING in place of our service to Christ. But I don't think with the points you have here, that you can claim to know the mind of God on masturbation.


----------



## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Disagree. Women objectify themselves more often than not. Whats the point of dressing up like a hooker if you want people to love you for your personality?


To consider a woman's style of dress to be that of a hooker is subjective. I guess unless all women are wearing burkas they are objectifying themselves.

People are stating why they oppose porn. Some of the guys on here are telling them their reasons don't add up as well as telling women what all women think and want.

Members don't have to defend their reasons and it's obvious that some of the guys don't really want to know the reasons women oppose porn. That's ok; but, don't think for a minute that you are actually having a dialogue. You're just being bullies. No one will be taking away your precious. You can relax.


----------



## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Your constant virtue signaling is every bit as indulgent as any chronic masturbator (which I seem to recall you were at one time). You just replaced one self-serving addiction with another. Among the many wisdoms expressed in the bible, it warns us about people like you.



Aaaahhhh....now CatholicDad's post makes more sense....

CD, it would have been more accurate for you to state....


CatholicDad said:


> I've missed several days of this, but want to try and explain why masturbating is wrong *for me*


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

LisaDiane said:


> This is silly to me! I mean, if it makes some people happy, that's great, but it's not common sense in my mind -- I _think_ Tantric Sex and denying orgasms is based on the ancient belief that a person (maybe only men?) could become *immortal* if he denied enough orgasms....!
> I love the idea of taking lots of time with eachother sexually and being very sensual and connected (unless, of course, you need to get dinner started soon, or the laundry needs to go in the dryer, in which case, bring on a QUICKIE!!!>), but the rest of it seems counter-intuitive = *wouldn't everyone feel LESS calm and peaceful if we walked around sexually aroused without release all the time??*
> 
> And I'm sorry, but in MY world, orgasms are the SOLUTION!! Lol!


The notion of their research and theories suggest that the body does not need orgasm, except to procreate. Everything outside of an orgasm motivates and rewards a couple to stay together in a nonstop trance of desire for one another. Meanwhile in orgasm land couples loose interest, drift apart, and eventually become sexless. 

If anything I do give them credit for indirectly encouraging and embracing failure as a path to self development and healing. "NO NO NO, we must not orgasm... aaaa AAAAHHHH that was WONDERFUL! But should let it happen again or we may loose our desire for being married."
....and the failure to NOT orgasm just gets worse and worse as the relationship improves! 

Well written psychology books on sexuality have somewhat of a parallel theory. It is not that orgasms should be avoided and omitted from intimacy but rather that goal driven sex for bigger and better orgasms can be self destructive. Couples that combine sexuality with nonstop goals to drive performance to achieve bigger and better orgasm often rob themselves of being emotionally connected and feeling loved by always comparing and criticizing their sexual performances for one another. Generally speaking comparison and the joy of sex don't mix well. Instead it should be about feeling accepted and letting your imperfections be seen.

When https://www.reuniting.info/ got started it was overwhelmed with porn users trying to get help and stop bad habits from ruining relationships. This was NOT the type of people that the authors of the site wanted to attract, but eventually they decided that they had this HUGE audience or people needing help perhaps their research on orgasm avoidance might help. Awkwardly enough it probably does help a lot of people. In my opinion it at least gets porn users to begin questioning their own sexuality and behaviors and trying to assess what is healthy and what is not. Taking a break from orgasm and performance driven behaviors for a while can indeed be helpful to assess a porn users lifestyle for making changes for the better. As long as it does not send them down the rabbit hole of orgasm denial, chastity, and various other extreme novel kinks that likely serve to make things worse. See that issue in action here: https://www.reuniting.info/node/5003 as users give encouragement to a guy to engage in self bondage/discipline with CBT behaviors of a locked male chastity device. 

Ummm OK!!!! Holy crap batman! You are porn free now. (yeah right!!!)


----------



## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

CatholicDad said:


> I ... want to try and explain why masturbating is wrong. First, because it entails deriving sexual pleasure outside of marriage.


I’m not sure it’s “outside of marriage.” It’s not fornication or adultery.



> Second, it does require full consent of the will, which makes it more wrong than an accidental wrong (such as a casual glance at an attractive member of the opposite sex).


I agree that an intentional wrong is worse than an accidental one. But you must first demonstrate that it’s wrong.



> Third, Jesus did instruct us to take up our cross and follow him. There are also numerous mentions in the Bible to "deny yourself" and also not be a slave to your body and not give in to sensual desires.


It’s not obvious to me that “denying yourself” would refer to masturbation. If anything, the call is to be single and celibate, but it’s better to marry than burn with desire. You would think that it would have been mentioned explicitly somewhere if it were wrong, especially Leviticus that covers just about everything.



> I can't imagine that people will argue that it isn't specifically forbidden and therefore is allowed! That sounds like a lawyer trying to exploit a loophole.


The evangelical argument is that it is permissible because it isn’t forbidden — neither explicitly nor implicitly.


----------



## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

CraigBesuden said:


> I’m not sure it’s “outside of marriage.” It’s not fornication or adultery.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


CD's thinking reminds me of the argument against drinking alcohol. The Bibles says not to be a drunkard, then someone says, ''see, it says not to drink alcohol''. An unnecessary extrapolation. You can believe that for personal piety, but alcohol consumption is not prohibited. Lest Paul be accused of encouraging sin by telling Timothy to drink wine to help with his stomach infirmities.


----------



## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

> CD's thinking reminds me of the argument against drinking alcohol. The Bibles says not to be a drunkard, then someone says, ''see, it says not to drink alcohol''. An unnecessary extrapolation. You can believe that for personal piety, but alcohol consumption is not prohibited. Lest Paul be accused of encouraging sin by telling Timothy to drink wine to help with his stomach infirmities.


You can’t put new wine in an old wineskin or it will burst. Why? It’s still fermenting and releasing gas, which will break an old, firm skin. A new skin will expand with the gas.

"Everyone brings out the choice wine first and then the cheaper wine after the guests have had too much to drink; but you have saved the best till now." That’s not grape juice.

“Some, however, made fun of them and said, “They have had too much wine.” Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: “Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say. These people are not drunk, as you suppose. It’s only nine in the morning!” Acts 2:13-15..... Whatever this “wine” stuff is, you don’t drink it in the morning because it’ll get you drunk.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

LisaDiane said:


> [
> 
> 
> As a Christian (Baptist -- non-"religious"), I couldn't disagree more with your reasoning here -- I DO NOT think you've found the Biblical basis to declare that masturbation is "wrong"....
> ...


I find it would be tough to defend masturbation religiously. Corinthians goes into it a bit even if doesn't outright condemn it. 

1 Corinthians 6:19-20
'Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.'

Colossians 3:5
'Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.'

1 Corinthians 6:18 
'Flee from sexual immorality. Every other sin a person commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body.'

1 Thessalonians 4:3-5
'For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you abstain from sexual immorality; that each one of you know how to control his own body in holiness and honor, not in the passion of lust like the Gentiles who do not know God;'

I would question how masturbation is 'glorifying God in your body.'


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

blondilocks said:


> to consider a woman's style of dress to be that of a hooker is subjective. I guess unless all women are wearing burkas they are objectifying themselves.
> 
> People are stating why they oppose porn. Some of the guys on here are telling them their reasons don't add up as well as telling women what all women think and want.
> 
> Members don't have to defend their reasons and it's obvious that some of the guys don't really want to know the reasons women oppose porn. That's ok; but, don't think for a minute that you are actually having a dialogue. You're just being bullies. No one will be taking away your precious. You can relax.


amen


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> I find it would be tough to defend masturbation religiously. Corinthians goes into it a bit even if doesn't outright condemn it.
> 
> 1 Corinthians 6:19-20
> 'Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.'
> ...


The body requires maintenance. If you're not married and getting sex, then you're not getting your body properly maintained. People who have regular orgasms are healthier, physically,mentally, emotionally, and one could say even spiritually. 

Being consumed by passion and lust is unhealthy and earthly/ungodly; it does not necessarily follow that that requires 100% abstinence from healthy, modest sexual release. "Abstain from sexual immorality." Taking care of ones self in a healthy way, in moderation is not sexual immorality. 

The thing is, the bible is pretty explicit about what constitutes sexual immorality and lists a number of things (adultery, fornication, evil desire....). If masturbation was one of those things, the Bible would have said so.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Blondilocks said:


> UpsideDownWorld11 said:
> 
> 
> > Disagree. Women objectify themselves more often than not. Whats the point of dressing up like a hooker if you want people to love you for your personality?
> ...


So, what the difference between porn and a woman in a dress I could fit around my forearm? Either way, its going to produce the same visceral response in your average male. The only difference is intent. The consumer of porn intentionally use it for sexual pleasure. The consumer of immodest clothing intends for it to produce a reaction in others as it serves no other purpose but vanity. Morally/religiously speaking and such.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> The body requires maintenance. If you're not married and getting sex, then you're not getting your body properly maintained. People who have regular orgasms are healthier, physically,mentally, emotionally, and one could say even spiritually.
> 
> Being consumed by passion and lust is unhealthy and earthly/ungodly; it does not necessarily follow that that requires 100% abstinence from healthy, modest sexual release. "Abstain from sexual immorality." Taking care of ones self in a healthy way, in moderation is not sexual immorality.
> 
> The thing is, the bible is pretty explicit about what constitutes sexual immorality and lists a number of things (adultery, fornication, evil desire....). If masturbation was one of those things, the Bible would have said so.


Hard to say. The only sexual activity that the bible condones is within marriage. Not sure how self masterbation fits into that box...


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Amen, too.

I'm fully in agreement some women, and some men have good reasons to oppose porn.

Some want "their reasons" to be "universal truth reasons", and some have "reasons hoped universal yet are legitimately combined with reasons singular to their circumstances", and all or partial of these good reasons are are common to groups of folks with similar beliefs. 

Hence the good exchanges of topics both pro/con.

Consistency is king when reasons are respectfully presented and respectfully listened to. 

Proselytizing doesn't seem well received by either camp, that's just my observation.

This may be the point of contention here, though certainly may not be the only trigger of any non-tactful repoirte. 

Me, I'm against porn use that limits: either SO's desire to initiate, participate in romantic interactions, desire sex with SO, causes denial of requests for sex, or interferes with spending time together.

To me, that leaves "no I won't have sex with you, I don't desire to have sex with you, yes I understand you're doing the normal romance steps, helping out around the house steps, no I won't let you "just take me" (either SO), but I want the house, food, and caretaking to continue and I don't want you to leave me" scenarios. 

Each to deal with the above untenable situations best they can. There are no perfect solutions. 

I can't say for each person that watching some porn here and there may keep an SO around and the situation time to get better, and I can't say it won't, because each person will have their own answer.

If a not M person watches porn, good, bad, the use of too much imho isn't best, but what's too much? Too little?

I'm not the judge if others, that much I know.

I do know there are errant "righteous indignation" circumstances in some folks lives, and I do know there is proper indignation in others lives, in their circumstances. 

Is porn acting /are actors living wrongfully? I wouldn't, some would, but there are other professions I wouldn't strive to participate in either. 

So knowing I'm not the judge if the world, I won't judge others. Power to them if they choose to make money that way.

We're here, the forum, to help in some humble way, if any tidbit or shared experience can shed some light, perhaps assuage a small amount of pain a person may be going through during a period in their life.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Hard to say. The only sexual activity that the bible condones is within marriage. Not sure how self masterbation fits into that box...


That's kind of my point. The bible goes to some detail in specifying what is prohibited. It, of course, doesn't necessarily go into everything that is allowed... but given the effort put into listing the no-nos, I don't thing it's a stretch to think that which isn't listed is not necessarily a no-no. Of course purity of motivation really helps determine the purity of the act, as is so often the case. 

There's certainly enough ambiguity to make prevent any rational person from making an outright, hard line claim that all masturbation in all forms at all times under all circumstances is a no-no. 

I tend to fall in the, if it's not explicitly forbidden then it's implicitly allowed camp. Tie goes to the runner.


----------



## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

> Hard to say. The only sexual activity that the bible condones is within marriage. Not sure how self masterbation fits into that box...


Masturbation is outside of the box. If it’s inside the box then it’s not masturbation.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> UpsideDownWorld11 said:
> 
> 
> > Hard to say. The only sexual activity that the bible condones is within marriage. Not sure how self masterbation fits into that box...
> ...


Taken together, I would think any sexual activity outside a marriage (as defined by the bible) is sexual immorality. So mutual masturbation seems completely fine. But it seems like an existential leap or sorts to think self masturbation, although not explicitly forbidden, is somehow OK. If marriage is the only acceptable course for sexual activity, then self stimulation is purely sexual without the other parts that go into a marriage union and rationally just doesn't fly. Just my 2 cents


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Taken together, I would think any sexual activity outside a marriage (as defined by the bible) is sexual immorality. So mutual masturbation seems completely fine. But it seems like an existential leap or sorts to think self masturbation, although not explicitly forbidden, is somehow OK. If marriage is the only acceptable course for sexual activity, then self stimulation is purely sexual without the other parts that go into a marriage union and rationally just doesn't fly. Just my 2 cents


But that rests on an assertion that masturbation is outside the marriage. I don't see it that way. If you have dinner alone, are you eating outside the marriage? Outside the marriage implies involving someone else... which brings us back to the real thread of this topic.... porn. Porn consumption generally involves someone outside the marriage, so it's fairly easy to make the case that porn use would be biblically unacceptable. Masturbation doesn't fit into that category, though. Nothing in the bible, as far as I know, indicates that masturbation, even solo, which is kept entirely within the confines of a marriage, could be considered outside the marriage.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> UpsideDownWorld11 said:
> 
> 
> > Taken together, I would think any sexual activity outside a marriage (as defined by the bible) is sexual immorality. So mutual masturbation seems completely fine. But it seems like an existential leap or sorts to think self masturbation, although not explicitly forbidden, is somehow OK. If marriage is the only acceptable course for sexual activity, then self stimulation is purely sexual without the other parts that go into a marriage union and rationally just doesn't fly. Just my 2 cents
> ...


"The Christian idea of marriage is based on Christ’s words that a man and wife are to be regarded as a single organism—for that is what the words “one flesh” would be in modern English. And the Christians believe that when He said this He was not expressing a sentiment but stating a fact-just as one is stating a fact when one says that a lock and its key are one mechanism, or that a violin and a bow are one musical instrument. The inventor of the human machine was telling us that its two halves, the male and the female, were made to be combined together in pairs, not simply on the sexual level, but totally combined. The monstrosity of sexual intercourse outside marriage is that those who indulge in it are trying to isolate one kind of union (the sexual) from all the other kinds of union which was intended to go along with it and make up the total union. The Christian attitude does not mean that there is anything wrong about sexual pleasure, any more than about the pleasure of eating. It means that you must not isolate that pleasure and try to get it by itself, any more than you ought to try to get the pleasures of taste without swallowing and digesting, by chewing things and spitting them out again..." -cs lewis


This is speaking on fornication rather than masturbation, but it can be relevant I think. Taking the violin and bow analogy. In order to make music, a violin with no bow or a bow with no violin will just not work. They are complementary parts that don't make sense separate (one flesh). 

Are you outside the marriage? I think so, if not in mind atleast in essense. Its simply sexual gratification for the sake of sexual gratification.


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Taken together, I would think any sexual activity outside a marriage (as defined by the bible) is sexual immorality. So mutual masturbation seems completely fine. But it seems like an existential leap or sorts to think self masturbation, although not explicitly forbidden, is somehow OK. If marriage is the only acceptable course for sexual activity, then self stimulation is purely sexual without the other parts that go into a marriage union and rationally just doesn't fly. Just my 2 cents


To just take an opposite view, as a discussion comment.

Who's to say masturbation isn't a required practice to:

Prepare for marriage, how to give a man, or woman, the knowledge of how to fully enjoy their mate with the joy the bible describes in SOS,

And the knowledge of what to expect in joyous receiving and giving, when procreating, and how to complete the steps for a successful procreation encounter with their mate?

Just for discussion sake.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> "The Christian idea of marriage is based on Christ’s words that a man and wife are to be regarded as a single organism—for that is what the words “one flesh” would be in modern English. And the Christians believe that when He said this He was not expressing a sentiment but stating a fact-just as one is stating a fact when one says that a lock and its key are one mechanism, or that a violin and a bow are one musical instrument. The inventor of the human machine was telling us that its two halves, the male and the female, were made to be combined together in pairs, not simply on the sexual level, but totally combined. The monstrosity of sexual intercourse outside marriage is that those who indulge in it are trying to isolate one kind of union (the sexual) from all the other kinds of union which was intended to go along with it and make up the total union. The Christian attitude does not mean that there is anything wrong about sexual pleasure, any more than about the pleasure of eating. It means that you must not isolate that pleasure and try to get it by itself, any more than you ought to try to get the pleasures of taste without swallowing and digesting, by chewing things and spitting them out again..." -cs lewis
> 
> 
> This is speaking on fornication rather than masturbation, but it can be relevant I think. Taking the violin and bow analogy. In order to make music, a violin with no bow or a bow with no violin will just not work. They are complementary parts that don't make sense separate (one flesh).
> ...


... and as long as both partners are in support of that, it's not outside the marriage. Doing it alone does not un-combine the union as truly going outside the marriage does. 

The quote provided itself makes an unbiblical leap founded on a false analogy. It is not on point.


----------



## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> I find it would be tough to defend masturbation religiously. Corinthians goes into it a bit even if doesn't outright condemn it.
> 
> 1 Corinthians 6:19-20
> 'Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.'
> ...



You need to realize that "sexual immorality" doesn't mean masturbation to ME (or lots of other people) -- that is YOUR interpretation, YOUR "conviction". God made me a sexual person, He gave me sexual desire, and this is MY body - if I want to satisfy that sexual craving in a way that hurts no one, it is NOT SIN -- as a matter of fact, when I DO masturbate (rarely, but still), I absolutely feel GRATEFUL to God for having a body that can feel that way!

But I am not threatened by your way of seeing this - if that is what it means to YOU, I am happy for you that you are living the way you believe God wants you to live, and I would NEVER try to tell you my way is God's way for YOU....but without an absolute, specific command in the Bible, anything you (or I) think about it is our personal interpretation, nothing more. And that is why God gave us Free Will.


----------



## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

If masturbation doesn’t glorify God in your body, what about oral and anal sex? Eating donuts and pizza?

Also, I believe CD would argue that mutual masturbation by a married couple, as well as fellatio to completion, would be sinful.


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Bearing in mind at the times of writing some books, the sexual immorality may be inclusive of combatting the wildly sexual escapades of the Roman examples going on. 

Nothing was forbidden, nothing wasn't done if there was a desire of any kind, with other romans, conquered peoples, slaves, you name it.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> ... and as long as both partners are in support of that, it's not outside the marriage. Doing it alone does not un-combine the union as truly going outside the marriage does.
> 
> The quote provided itself makes an unbiblical leap founded on a false analogy. It is not on point.


Yea, the quote doesn't have any authority. I was just using it to better describe a viewpoint, which I believe is not unfounded simply because every sexual deviancy in the bible is not enumerated. I don't know if I could consider it cheating on your spouse, maybe more about dishonoring one's body. We could debate this all day with no real compass for the truth but our own hearts, but I appreciate different viewpoints regardless.


----------



## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> "The Christian idea of marriage is based on Christ’s words that a man and wife are to be regarded as a single organism—for that is what the words “one flesh” would be in modern English. And the Christians believe that when He said this He was not expressing a sentiment but stating a fact-just as one is stating a fact when one says that a lock and its key are one mechanism, or that a violin and a bow are one musical instrument. The inventor of the human machine was telling us that its two halves, the male and the female, were made to be combined together in pairs, not simply on the sexual level, but totally combined. The monstrosity of sexual intercourse outside marriage is that those who indulge in it are trying to isolate one kind of union (the sexual) from all the other kinds of union which was intended to go along with it and make up the total union. The Christian attitude does not mean that there is anything wrong about sexual pleasure, any more than about the pleasure of eating. It means that you must not isolate that pleasure and try to get it by itself, any more than you ought to try to get the pleasures of taste without swallowing and digesting, by chewing things and spitting them out again..." -cs lewis
> 
> *This is speaking on fornication rather than masturbation, but it can be relevant I think.* Taking the violin and bow analogy. In order to make music, a violin with no bow or a bow with no violin will just not work. They are complementary parts that don't make sense separate (one flesh).
> 
> Are you outside the marriage? I think so, if not in mind atleast in essense. Its simply sexual gratification for the sake of sexual gratification.



I completely disagree that an admonition about fornication applies to masturbation -- they are SO DIFFERENT!!! But again, this is for ME -- if masturbation has been a problem for you in your life/marriage, definitely make that leap, and apply it to how destructive it CAN be, for SOME....but again, I don't know how you can separate masturbating from any other sensual/bodily experience that we have naturally as human beings. The Bible is very clear that selfishly gratifying ANY of our human urges in a way that harms ourselves or others is wrong. But everything in moderation is fine, even GOOD. 

Partnered sexual activity is VERY DIFFERENT, and has very different consequences, which is why it's specifically mentioned in the Bible.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

CraigBesuden said:


> If masturbation doesn’t glorify God in your body, what about oral and anal sex? Eating donuts and pizza?
> 
> Also, I believe CD would argue that mutual masturbation by a married couple, as well as fellatio to completion, would be sinful.


I don't know about oral, but sticking your sexual organ into your wifes digestive tract is not very natural. Thus, natural law doctrine prohibits it in the Catholic Church.


----------



## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

CraigBesuden said:


> If masturbation doesn’t glorify God in your body, what about oral and anal sex? Eating donuts and pizza?
> 
> Also, I believe CD would argue that mutual masturbation by a married couple, as well as fellatio to completion, would be sinful.



Oh, THIS EXACTLY! And I do believe that the Catholic Church thought oral sex was a sin, not too long ago....so again, without a clear, Biblical command about it, it's only someone's INTERPRETATION.

Which is why I don't consider myself a "religious" Christian (ie: I don't go to church) -- I couldn't stand to have someone else interpreting God's Word FOR me, especially after watching so many of their lives crash and burn because of their own issues. Inspire me, sure, but DO NOT tell me what God is saying to ME....


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

LisaDiane said:


> I completely disagree that an admonition about fornication applies to masturbation -- they are SO DIFFERENT!!! But again, this is for ME -- if masturbation has been a problem for you in your life/marriage, definitely make that leap, and apply it to how destructive it CAN be, for SOME....but again, I don't know how you can separate masturbating from any other sensual/bodily experience that we have naturally as human beings. *The Bible is very clear that selfishly gratifying ANY of our human urges in a way that harms ourselves or others is wrong. *But everything in moderation is fine, even GOOD.
> 
> *Partnered sexual activity is VERY DIFFERENT, and has very different consequences, which is why it's specifically mentioned in the Bible.*


Nice and succinct, and making perfect sense to me.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> UpsideDownWorld11 said:
> 
> 
> > Taken together, I would think any sexual activity outside a marriage (as defined by the bible) is sexual immorality. So mutual masturbation seems completely fine. But it seems like an existential leap or sorts to think self masturbation, although not explicitly forbidden, is somehow OK. If marriage is the only acceptable course for sexual activity, then self stimulation is purely sexual without the other parts that go into a marriage union and rationally just doesn't fly. Just my 2 cents
> ...


Thats a possibility but its all just baseless conjecture. Paul I believe said that its better to marry than burn with passion. Who are we trying to fool, we aren't masturbating to train for a mate, lol.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

LisaDiane said:


> [
> 
> 
> I completely disagree that an admonition about fornication applies to masturbation -- they are SO DIFFERENT!!! But again, this is for ME -- if masturbation has been a problem for you in your life/marriage, definitely make that leap, and apply it to how destructive it CAN be, for SOME....but again, I don't know how you can separate masturbating from any other sensual/bodily experience that we have naturally as human beings. The Bible is very clear that selfishly gratifying ANY of our human urges in a way that harms ourselves or others is wrong. But everything in moderation is fine, even GOOD.
> ...


Define 'harms ourselves'. Like literally hurting ourselves or sinfully hurting ourselves? If our body is a temple that the Holy Spirit lives within, does masturbation qualify as defilement or is it something else akin to eating a bag of nacho cheese doritos?


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Thats a possibility but its all just baseless conjecture. Paul I believe said that its better to marry than burn with passion. *Who are we trying to fool, we aren't masturbating to train for a mate,* lol.


Really?
Most guys would do well to get used to controlling their sexual response so that when they do mate, they don't shoot off in the first fifteen seconds!


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Define 'harms ourselves'. Like literally hurting ourselves or sinfully hurting ourselves? If our body is a temple that the Holy Spirit lives within, does masturbation qualify as defilement or is it something else akin to eating a bag of nacho cheese doritos?


Circular logic. It's sinful because it's harmful. How is it harmful? Because it's sinful!


----------



## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> I don't know about oral, but sticking your sexual organ into your wifes digestive tract is not very natural. Thus, natural law doctrine prohibits it in the Catholic Church.


Of course oral sex and anal sex is natural for the human species, just as it is with a number of other primates.

If it weren't natural it wouldn't occur.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

It seems that a lot of accepted sexual behaviors are not "natural". Kissing for example.

Actually very little I do in my life is natural. I've never tracked down and killed an antelope, and I've very rarely eaten food picked from plants in the wild. I bathe regularly, wear clothes, and been vaccinated against a wide variety of infectious diseases. 







UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> I don't know about oral, but sticking your sexual organ into your wifes digestive tract is not very natural. Thus, natural law doctrine prohibits it in the Catholic Church.


----------



## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Rocky Mountain Yeti said:
> 
> 
> > UpsideDownWorld11 said:
> ...


Well said UDW.


----------



## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> LisaDiane said:
> 
> 
> > [
> ...


Thank you UDW11. I can't believe people can still argue that masturbation isn't condemned in the Bible.


----------



## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> CatholicDad said:
> 
> 
> > I've missed several days of this, but want to try and explain why masturbating is wrong.
> ...


I know my side is winning when you start resorting to personal attacks or attacks on the church. I've never said I was "chronic". I am personally familiar with porn and masturbation and I speak against both because I believe they're harmful to men, marriage, and families.

You consistently and vehemently defend porn and masturbation.... That's a fact.


----------



## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Another reason that porn and masturbation is wrong is that it lessens the power of the marital encounter. It's been said women generally have "responsive desire".

A husband who masturbates while away or busy just won't be quite as interested and his wife's responsive desire will also therefore be lessened when they finally reunite!

I think self control in men is a fantastic and worthwhile virtue and reaps many dividends. 

I know personally I am incredibly thankful for every marital encounter... I find it fascinating that so many men on here can be so unenthusiastic. My first thought is... He must be masturbating...and probably porn viewing. So sad.


----------



## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

I'm not opposed to the viewing of pornorgraphy or masturbation, or of viewing pornorgraphy while masturbating.

Yet I do think the world would be a better place if most motion picture pornorgraphy, would have their soundtracks banned since they're really lame.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

CatholicDad said:


> Another reason that porn and masturbation is wrong is that it lessens the power of the marital encounter. It's been said women generally have "responsive desire".
> 
> A husband who masturbates while away or busy just won't be quite as interested and his wife's responsive desire will also therefore be lessened when they finally reunite!
> 
> ...


This is yet another one of your blatantly ignorant falsehoods. 

There's no shortage of men who could toss off every day and still be 100% ready to rock wife's world when she's finally ready.

Furthermore, if dude gets zero release for a long period of time, he'll likely have less control when he does get the "marital encounter." Its well documented that long periods of inactivity diminishes control. If he's so over wound from no release that he pops off on a New York minute, he's not doing his wife any favors. In many cases, some masturbation between marital events is the BEST possible thing he can do for his wife and the marital encounter. This is just maintenance and not anything "selfish" or outside the marriage.

You need to stop making **** up and you _*really*_ need to stop projecting your astonishingly narrow experience onto everyone else. 

And stick to your faith based arguments where facts and rational thought aren't necessary cuz you are an epic fail every time you venture into the world of logic and reality.


----------



## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

RMY, l'll state it again. Sure a man can be ready for sex daily, no argument there. However we won't be dying for it like he would if he hasn't been with his wife for a few days. 

Your solution, control your urge via a quick masturbation session.

The real man's solution is to exhibit self control and wait. When he finally reunites it will be that much more joyful and intense. Respectfully RMY, how would a masturbater know what's like to wait?

My experience is broader, I've masturbated (as a young fool) and waited. Its much more intense, honest, and natural to wait. And the body creates its own natural sexual health via nightly erections and occasional nighttime emissions. Saying that men need to masturbate for sexual health is such a lie.

First we've proven masturbation is theologically wrong. Now, you've switch to defend it via sexual health reasons... Also wrong!

I'm 50 and been married for over 25 years. I joyfully caught my busy wife twice in the past week. Because I wasn't dulled by masturbating, both sessions we're extremely intense, doubles for me and multiples for her. I could get more graphic and descriptive but won't. 

I truly believe though as an older guy, if you want to keep your testosterone high... Don't waste yourself on porn and masturbation! Truly.

Ok, RMY, I'm ready for more personal insults or attacks on my church.


----------



## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

CatholicDad said:


> RMY, l'll state it again. Sure a man can be ready for sex daily, no argument there. However we won't be dying for it like he would if he hasn't been with his wife for a few days.
> 
> Your solution, control your urge via a quick masturbation session.
> 
> ...


The wheels on the bus go round and round, round and round, round and round.....

If this is your personal piety, bless you.

Nothing was proven theologically.

I could use those verses to prohibit ANYTHING, (hence the need for a solid hermeneutic).

If you NEED to win this argument, you'd best join a RC site and have the pope preside over the doctrine. My authority is the Bible, and I won't bend a knee to a liberation theologist jesuit commie from South America.


----------



## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Further RMY, the self control a man learns outside the bedroom, definitely is with him inside the bedroom.

Funny how you claim a masturbater magically has self control in the bedroom when he has never practiced it outside the bedroom! 

I call BS on your claim that masturbaters are better lovers. They're dreamers that expend their true power in dreams.


----------



## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

CatholicDad said:


> *First we've proven masturbation is theologically wrong.* Now, you've switch to defend it via sexual health reasons... Also wrong!
> 
> I'm 50 and been married for over 25 years. I joyfully caught my busy wife twice in the past week. Because I wasn't dulled by masturbating, both sessions we're extremely intense, doubles for me and multiples for her. I could get more graphic and descriptive but won't.
> 
> ...



Umm....THAT is absolutely UNTRUE -- "we" have proven nothing of the kind! I can't believe the arrogance of that statement....


----------



## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

OnTheFly said:


> The wheels on the bus go round and round, round and round, round and round.....
> 
> If this is your personal piety, bless you.
> 
> ...



THANK YOU for this post -- VERY well-said!


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

CatholicDad said:


> RMY, l'll state it again. Sure a man can be ready for sex daily, no argument there. However we won't be dying for it like he would if he hasn't been with his wife for a few days.
> 
> Your solution, control your urge via a quick masturbation session.
> 
> ...


You're still missing the point. For most guys, if they're "dying for it," they're going to pop wayyy to fast and then mama gets nothing. 

You've got to give others the ability to manage their own relationships in the way that is best for them.... including their wives. You know nothing about many individuals. Stop projecting your experience on everyone. Your experience is not "broader" It's just you. Sure, you were a masturbator and now are not, so you know how both sides affect.... YOU... and you only. So you're still as ignorant as you ever were. 

Prof of your refusal to accept anything that doesn't fit your mindless little paradigm:
_"Respectfully RMY, how would a masturbater know what's like to wait?"_
You have zero idea how often I have or haven't masturbated, when, under what circumstances, and at what periods in my life. You have no idea whatsoever how often and how long I've waited. Dude, even when my wife was only willing/capable once *per month*, I wasn't masturbating. So get over your pejorative self and stop making up false assumptions to justify your narrowminded, judgmental prejudices and sexual ignorance. Stop making false accusations against others who do don't know a damn thing about. First you called me a porn user and that was incorrect. But even knowing that, that didn't slow you down from making another false assumption and accusation. You are truly incapable of getting better. 

You're theology is weak and your reality is _completely _wrong (for others if not yourself--notice that I haven't once prescribed what's best for you; you would do well to extend the same courtesy to others). Once you can discuss things rationally and without basing your discussion on false assumptions and recognize that not all humans have the same capacities and reactions, then you may be able to contribute something useful into the discussion. But I won't hold my breath.... mindless zealots rarely evolve; they just devolve deeper and deeper into their prejudices and blindness. 

oh, just so you know, these weren't "personal attacks," but rather attacks on your positions which spring from your refusal to accept facts or logic. Moreover, none of the "attacks on your church" were false in any way. Your church has been guilty of all the things which have been mentioned.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

CatholicDad said:


> Further RMY, the self control a man learns outside the bedroom, definitely is with him inside the bedroom.
> 
> Funny how you claim a masturbater magically has self control in the bedroom when he has never practiced it outside the bedroom!
> 
> I call BS on your claim that masturbaters are better lovers. They're dreamers that expend their true power in dreams.


You're still putting false words in others' mouths. That one has masturbated does not mean he has "never practiced" self control. That's just stupid to even say that. There are so many ways that that blind blanket statement is off target, I'm not even going to wast the time listing them. 

Your last statement is also one of those blind blanket statement as well as more false attribution. I did not say that mastrurbaters are better lovers. Your need to constantly put false attributions in my mouth is just more proof that you can't even begin to grasp anything outside what your ever shrinking capacity for critical thought can handle. What I said was that, for some men, not having had sex in a long time means they will be very fast. So for *some *men, in *some* cases, they, *and their wives*, are going to get more out of the sex if he _hasn't _waited too long. That may not be your personal experience, but it is the experience of many. 

Someone should call the fire department so they can bring the jaws of life to help pry open your freakishly closed mind.


----------



## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Let me bring everyone up to speed.

UDW11 kindly provided several Bible quotes that proved masturbation is condemned. 

The lukewarm (typically Protestants) refuse this truth and are keeping their masturbation habits.

RMY defends porn and masturbation from an intellectual standpoint only (let me reiterate that he in no way participates in these vile habits except only to the extent that a mature man should). And, anyone who disagrees (such as CD) is incredibly closed minded.

Does this sum it up?


----------



## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

CatholicDad said:


> Let me bring everyone up to speed.
> 
> Does this sum it up?


Thanks, yes I've got a handle on it now.


----------



## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

Andy1001 said:


> I’ve never understood the attraction of porn. If a man prefers to watch porn rather than have sex with a willing partner then he has more problems than he thinks.


Not at all.
Porn doesnt get a headache.
Porn does mind if you try other porn.
Porn is happy sitting on a chair, under a mattress, stuff in the back of a shoe box in an overfilled closet.
Porn doesnt give STDs or get pregnant.
Porn doesn't punch you because it had a bad day at work or if it thinks someone looked at you.
Porn doesnt require a shower beforehand or two hours getting makeup just right to be ignored anyway.
Porn can be lent to friends and everything is still cool.
If someone steals your porn, it annoys you, but there's good chance of getting it back.
Porn wont normally take your house, care, friends, or kids.
You can try some really weird porn, and then not have to be concerned about what porn thinks about it.
Porn doesnt care if its a quicky or a nightcap or the main event.
Porn doesnt shove cold toes on you in bed or laugh when trying a dutch over.
Porn doesnt have inlaws.
Porn doesnt consume the last of your wine/beer/weed.
Porn doesnt care if you're just using it.
And best of all, you dont have to worry or panic about how porn is feeling all the time.


----------



## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

CatholicDad said:


> The lukewarm (typically Protestants) refuse this truth and are keeping their masturbation habits.


I have to sincerely ask why you are a bigot. It's as if a member of a Protestant denomination is somewhat looked down upon by you, or at the very least, they're the ones who are "lukewarm" or defending masturbation. From where do you get this information?

I thought ALL Christians - no matter the denomination - were followers of Jesus Christ and his teachings. 

What makes you think Catholicism is so great? All denominations of Christianity have their adherents, but I fail to see why you believe Catholicism has the edge over the others. 

And, P.S., Jesus was a JEW, not a Catholic, Lutheran, Methodist, etc.


----------



## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

CatholicDad said:


> It will make your marriage better. I guarantee it. You might have a wet dream every now and then and occasionally, partly insane- but God is never outdone in generosity. You give to Him and he gives back. Your fitness level will go up. You'll require more workouts to keep yourself under control. Best yet, when you haven't synched up with wifey after a week or two and you catch her.. you'll knock her socks off with your raised level of passion for her. You'll understand why males of many species will fight to the death for mating rights lol!!
> 
> Porn and masturbation just dull a man's senses... That's all. Of course, I fully believe that there are probably eternal consequences too... Especially for men that don't love and cherish their wives like they should. No one's perfect, but men sure shouldn't let porn dull their attraction and attention for their wife!


Incorrect - but feel free to keep telling yourself that if you need it to keep yourself somewhat sane.
Although what it has to do with God escapes me.


----------



## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

personofinterest said:


> Exactly!
> 
> I think next time a husband is betrayed I'll make jokes about penis size and see how that goes over.
> 
> ...



Sounds like a challenge. (reenis size)
yes they're in PAIN oohh, how terrible that PAIN should exist in the world.

Not everybody is an over-sensitive PC enabler wait to be offended by the next drop of a sock. Such over sensitivity is a _disease_.

You're making your own victims then basic life experiences upset you.

You're bringing your own limits, your own chains, your own whips, and creating your own sickening and own pain.
And we're back to the ropes again....


----------



## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

CraigBesuden said:


> People who strongly have a fetish like that should find people who share it. I wouldn’t want to do whips and chains, either.
> 
> Though perhaps you could tape his mouth shut, bend him over a chair. “What’s wrong with you?” **whip** “That porn is disgusting!” **whip** “A real man wouldn’t need that to get off!” **whip**


I remember some feminazi self defense person going off her nut and talking aboiut kicking guys in the groin and grabbing and twisting their nuts "and that will stop any man"...
She stormed out in the middle of the class when my girlfriend at the time pointed out that for her and her partner, that counted as foreplay. (and there's probably an app for it these days)


----------



## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

OnTheFly said:


> Sounds like something Jordan Peterson would say.
> 
> Lucifer was a created being, rebelled against God, took a 1/3 of the angels with him.
> 
> ...


Who was it made Adam and Eve mortal??


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

CatholicDad said:


> Thank you UDW11. I can't believe people can still argue that masturbation isn't condemned in the Bible.


Because none of those scriptures refers to masturbation in and of itself.

You might be unable to masturbate without sin, I will give you that, but I can and do.


----------



## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> This is yet another one of your blatantly ignorant falsehoods.
> 
> There's no shortage of men who could toss off every day and still be 100% ready to rock wife's world when she's finally ready.
> 
> ...


Tell us what you really think, Rocky. lol


----------



## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Prodigal said:


> I have to sincerely ask why you are a bigot. It's as if a member of a Protestant denomination is somewhat looked down upon by you, or at the very least, they're the ones who are "lukewarm" or defending masturbation. *From where do you get this information?
> *
> I thought ALL Christians - no matter the denomination - were followers of Jesus Christ and his teachings.
> 
> ...


Perhaps, because Catholics believe theirs is the true church of Christ. Orthodox would disagree. There is no doubt that Protestantism sprang from Catholicism therefore they consider us (Protestants) to be heretics.


----------



## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

spotthedeaddog said:


> Who was it made Adam and Eve mortal??


Interesting question. Three answers.

Answer 1) God.

God created Adam and Eve upright (Eccl.7:29)

They were sinless, but in a body that had potential to sin. Had they obeyed God's commandment regarding the tree, presumably/potentially they would still be sinless and alive, along with their children (and children's children, etc). 

They sinned and God killed them (forestalled by grace and mercy for many, many years). It's interesting to note, when they felt shame they covered themselves with fig leaves. God killed an animal and used it's pelt to cover them. This was a foreshadowing of the coming Mosaic sacrificial system and more importantly a ''type'' of Christ's sacrifice on the cross for our sins.

Answer 2) Satan.

In the passage I quoted earlier from John, and in the immediate aftermath of the sin as recorded in Genesis, Satan is held responsible and judged. He bears responsibility for Adam and Eve's transition from ''uprightness'' to sinner.

Answer 3) Adam and Eve.

When they sinned, they died. They passed from uprightness and friendship with God to death. And God worked and continues to work to reconcile lost sinners to himself through Jesus Christ. 

If your question was asked genuinely, this is my genuine answer.

If your question was a trick, or ''gotcha'' moment, I'm still happy I got to write this out. Christ, the spotless Lamb, shed his blood on the cross to reconcile sinners to God. Simple. Believe it and live. Turn to Christ and live.


----------



## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

Blondilocks said:


> Perhaps, because Catholics believe theirs is the true church of Christ. Orthodox would disagree. There is no doubt that Protestantism sprang from Catholicism therefore they consider us (Protestants) to be heretics.


Officially, we're ''separated brethren''.

That's word salad, of course. They toned down the rhetoric of ''heresy'' (at 2nd Vatican Council??) for hopes of religious/political alliances. 

Protestantism isn't monolithic (catholics aren't either), so it's a waste of breath. 

Years ago I stopped referring to myself by what I oppose or what I'm trying to fix (protest-ant and reformer).

I'm a New Covenant Believer. Those useless words from 500yrs ago have no bearing to me now. Talk about living in the past!!

Call me a protestant, call me lukewarm, call me a reformer, all water off a duck's back.

But, I'll fight to the theological death for ''faith alone, through Christ alone''


----------



## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

Blondilocks said:


> Perhaps, because Catholics believe theirs is the true church of Christ.


Sad but true. I'm reading a biography of Elizabeth I right now, and alliances/marriages/wars all boiled down to religious differences. 

The thing is, Jesus did not come to create a religious denomination, which has me scratching my head as to why Catholics would actually consider themselves the one "true" church. Wasn't it Augustine in around 350 A.D. who came up with the original Catholic church?


----------



## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

It was a long process, but when Constantine declared ''christianity'' as the state religion of the Roman Empire 315-ish AD, this was an important step in the transition to RC-ism.

As the Roman Empire slowly collapsed, the religious elites, with pope as leader, took over temporal power. 

Fascinating, historically speaking, but far from Biblical Christianity.


----------



## Tony Conrad (Oct 7, 2013)

To answer the question I oppose porn use because I consider it mental adultery. I have been tempted a few times but I quickly switch it off as I feel and know that it is defiling me and affecting my sexual relationship with my wife. With regard to masturbation I know that some say they can do it with a blank mind but most men would visualise some sexual scenario involving a woman not their wife so that can be just as bad really. Wives in particular say they can do it without this visualisation and that sounds great if it helps them awaken physically to their husbands.

Regarding the Catholic Church. God knows who are his and that doesn't necessarily run on denominational lines. That is just a worldy argument. As for the Catholic church being the true church that just shows me they do not understand the body of Christ which is certainly not confined to a denomination.


----------



## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

Thank you for writing this.



Tony Conrad said:


> To answer the question I oppose porn use because I consider it mental adultery


----------



## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

spotthedeaddog said:


> Andy1001 said:
> 
> 
> > I’ve never understood the attraction of porn. If a man prefers to watch porn rather than have sex with a willing partner then he has more problems than he thinks.
> ...


Porn contributes to sex trafficking.
Porn teaches that people are objects, made for our pleasure. Porn is cited as a reason in many divorces. Porn can rewire a man's brain such that he will have difficulty with actual sex. Porn gives men unrealistic expectations about sex and about women. Since porn destroys marriages, it hurts kids (less of them have their dads in the home). Online porn exposes kids to sexual stuff they aren't mature enough for and can wreak havoc on normal sexual development. Viewing porn is an adulterous act that requires full consent of the will. Porn is addictive. Porn allows men to hide from life/marital problems (real men take on problems head-on). Porn is a disgusting habit. Porn is a lie. Porn is selfish. Porn is about pleasuring the body at the expense of your soul, integrity, and self respect. Porn won't give you children, love you, or give any lasting benefits. Porn won't love you or make love to you. Porn won't advise you about life, work, or family. Porn won't fix your dinner, decorate your home or help raise your children. Porn won't actually perform sex acts on YOU (that's someone else you're watching)! Porn doesn't smell good, feel good, have beautiful hair/legs/lips/buns/(insert favorite body part here) that you can actually touch/taste/kiss/(insert favorite verb here).

Porn is evil and likely invented by Satan to enslave men and drag them into hell.


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

CatholicDad said:


> ...Porn doesn't smell good...


A comedian once joked that porn viewership would drop drastically if viewers could actually smell what the close-up videographer often smells. This comedian then went on to describe these horrendous smells in detail and the whole audience was gagging/choking/laughing. 

So @CatholicDad is on point here when he says porn doesn't smell good.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

I think people are getting to caught up with "well, the Bible doesn't directly condemn it, so it must be ok." It's fairly evident in several passages that 'desires of the flesh' are not encouraged. 

Now, I'm sure many people can look at that and numerous other passages and say 'well, if I only masturbate once or twice a week, I'm in the clear'...but how do you know? Its clearly stated that sex should be within marriage. There is no wiggle room outside of that, aside from celibacy. How then do you make the leap that a sexual act such as masturbation is fine? Are you saying it is a religious experience that brings you closer to God? If you really think it pleases God, then go ahead but know you are on shaky ground. I think people are missing the Forest for the Trees here.


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> I think people are getting to caught up with "well, the Bible doesn't directly condemn it, so it must be ok." It's fairly evident in several passages that 'desires of the flesh' are not encouraged.
> 
> Now, I'm sure many people can look at that and numerous other passages and say 'well, if I only masturbate once or twice a week, I'm in the clear'...but how do you know? Its clearly stated that sex should be within marriage. There is no wiggle room outside of that, aside from celibacy. How then do you make the leap that a sexual act such as masturbation is fine? Are you saying it is a religious experience that brings you closer to God? If you really think it pleases God, then go ahead but know you are on shaky ground. I think people are missing the Forest for the Trees here.


The Bible also clearly - CLEARLY - states that we should not have sexual relations outside of marriage. You seem so stringent about this porn and masturbation thing, How do you reconcile your "sex with everyone" lifestyle with THAT part of the Bible?

Just wondering.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

personofinterest said:


> UpsideDownWorld11 said:
> 
> 
> > I think people are getting to caught up with "well, the Bible doesn't directly condemn it, so it must be ok." It's fairly evident in several passages that 'desires of the flesh' are not encouraged.
> ...


I'm going at this more from a objective theological standpoint. Me? I find religion and history incredibly interesting. I like studying them. Maybe one day I will find the faith needed that lies outside the books. I still hold out hope I can get around that mental roadblock.

But I don't advocate sex with everyone. It is just a strategy I used after my divorce to maximize my options while keeping open the possibility of finding someone to spend my life with. Certainly, not a biblical way to live, but I wasn't interested in any of that then.


----------

