# Tumultuous relationship



## CrazyWoman (Jun 23, 2012)

I've been with my husband for 21 tumultuous years. It remains so. After last night, I'm about at my wits end. If it gives you any idea, I've been at my wits end on many occasions and am still here. 

We've had a few arguments over the past few days. One was over a library book he found in my purse about manipulation. He immediately internalized it and got angry, confronting me about it as I was filling my morning coffee cup. I'm always reading various self-help books whether it be about me, him, and/or us. This led to a 3 hour fight with two people having hurt feelings. He ended up in victim mode and I was just annoyed.

Last nights argument ensued with me making dinner for us. I tell him it's ready and he scowls and tells me we didn't discuss dinner. Okay...I didn't know we needed to discuss eating. So he doesn't eat any dinner and proceeds to come out and tell me about our lack of communication. I agree there's a lack, but I didn't know it involved dinner menus. Guess so. I explain to him I tend to live in the here and now, so he tells me leaving to go stay at his dads and we'll put the house up for sale and just end this thing. You might be saying "oh my" at this point, but this is a common response for him. He came back a few seconds later to say he wasn't leaving and was going to take some time to think about it.

I clean the kitchen, feed dogs, do a few other things, all the while he keeps coming and telling me he has a lot to think about and it's not my fault. He needs to think about whether he needs to put me through all of this. I say okay, and tell him I'm going to go to bed.

He wakes me at one, turning on the hall light, telling me he loves me and restating he needs to think about whether I deserve his crap. He wakes me at 3 saying he doesn't feel well. His back is hurting and now it hurts. He states he might be having a heart attack. It's possible, but he's done this type of attention getting ploy before. So I get up and put some clothes on and we look up symptoms. I'm a bit reluctant to just call 911, so I keep asking if he wants to go to emergency. He says "I don't know. What do you think?" This is said by him several times. How would I know? I'm not the one experiencing his discomfort. He finally bulls up and says he's just going to lay in the den and I can go back to bed. He wakes me up at 4 saying he thinks our 13 y.o. Dog isn't doing well. Sooooo, I get back up and check the old guy out. He's fine. 

My husband clearly has anxiety. He was on lorazepam for a few months and he seemed to deal with things much better (things=me, according to him). He stopped taking it when he began enduring blurred vision. I begged him to go back to the doctor to discuss alternative medication, but he wouldn't do it. So here we are again. Just another couple in an unhealthy relationship.

I've decided to issue an ultimatum an take action on it. I've decided to just make a counseling appointment for him and tell him he's going. He may or may not. He thinks they're a waste of money and don't help anything. I'm looking for ideas on how to present this to him, so he might just actually do it. We did see a marriage counselor a few years ago, which didn't go well. While he had a good rapport with her, he used the sessions against me. He kept saying "she said you were this to me and you're the one that needs to change." I don't deny I always have self-growth to do, which is a life-long process, but I found it just another tool in his anxiety arsenal to fight with me.

I'm so unhappy and tired.


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## JustHer (Mar 12, 2013)

First of all, I see a patern here. You are enabling him. Why do you allow him to wake and get you up several times in the night? Why are you letting him set the tone and deciding whether the marriage is to be or not to be?

He is not going to change, unless he does after his midlife stage, which could be a while yet. If he wants to fight over something stupid like dinner, go to your room, go for a drive, do something else but continue the round and round. If he threatens to move out and leave the marriage, pack his bags for him. If he wakes you and complains of his back, tell him to go to the emergency room.

You stated that he has anxiety and alueded to the fact that much of the problems are with him, therefor you are the one who needs to stop this.

I know it is hard once we have been conditioned to react a certain way and have done so for years, but come up with a plan before hand on how you will disengage from the bickering, do it, and stick to it.

Good luck


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Sounds as if he thrives on drama and you are an enabler. No wonder you are tired.

Look for some books on how to establish boundaries and keep them because right now he's dragging you into his drama and you are letting him.


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

No more broken sleep please. 

He's not dying, you know he has issues. Stop allowing him to manipulate you.


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## CrazyWoman (Jun 23, 2012)

A Bit Much said:


> No more broken sleep please.
> 
> He's not dying, you know he has issues. Stop allowing him to manipulate you.


 That's why I checked out that book, which he found and flipped out on.


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

Knowing is half the battle. And I'm sure it scared the living daylights out of him to see how much you are onto him and how PREPARED you are getting to deal with any future drama he wants to throw at you.

BUT

His behavior that night was a sh!t test and you failed it. He only acted out to keep you where he wants you (your response). No more of that!


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## CrazyWoman (Jun 23, 2012)

JustHer said:


> He is not going to change, unless he does after his midlife stage, which could be a while yet.


Just for clarity, he's a tad past mid-life. He's 60. I'm the one in mid-life at 46.


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## CrazyWoman (Jun 23, 2012)

More stuff for this afternoon. He comes in and asks what's wrong. Am I upset about last night? Uhhhh...yes, I am. He immediately flips into divorce again. He's going to move to his dads and we'll just sell everything we got. I say okay. Then he changes his mind and says he's not leaving...I have to leave. I say okay. He then goes into a tirade about how unsupportive I am/was when he truly thought he was having a heart attack. I said point blank I wasn't and reminded him how I got up and put clothes on, then checked out heart trouble signs on the Internet. Then stated how I got up when had concern for the dog. Then he goes into I have to take the dogs and if I don't, he's taking them to the pound. I looked at him, smiled, and said you won't. Threat from him, "you don't think so? You just take that chance." He's pulled this one before, so no surprise.

He walked away and returned several times asking why I won't work on this and support him. My support is he goes to get therapy and make a doctors appointment to discuss the anxiety drugs. Another flurry of negative remarks from him that I think he's crazy and I'm also crazy. He then says he will be bring his sister over as an unbiased counselor. I told him she's too close to the situation, so no dice. He finally asks for the name of " that lady" we saw before. Yeah, I gave him the name, but also reminded him about making a doctor appointment. He asked me why. Sheesh! Talk about short term memory (or poor listening skills). He asked if I really thought he needed the meds. YES! 

He looked in my eyes several times and said "you really don't give a sh**". Of course I do. He just now has the choice of what to do with it. Either take care of yourself or its over. I can't keep doing this. Last night was pretty much the end for me. Now if I can just keep true to this....


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

I would have said NO to his first question. 

Not.taking.the.bait.

If he kept asking, THEN I would have brought up the doc appointment etc.

Otherwise, you're holding up quite well!


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## CrazyWoman (Jun 23, 2012)

Well, it appears he actually made an appointment. He has a time written with the name I gave him, but I'm not sure when. His mood with me is rather terse and I'm not appreciating it, but I know this has really taken a toll on him. He's just being short with his answers and looking at me as if I'm the devil incarnate.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

CrazyWoman said:


> I've been with my husband for 21 tumultuous years. It remains so..


CW, the behaviors you describe -- i.e., the temper tantrums, always being "The Victim," verbal abuse, controlling behavior, and rapid flips between loving you and devaluing you -- are some of the classic traits of BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). You also describe instances of black-white thinking, which is another hallmark of BPD.

B-W thinking occurs in BPDers because they are extremely uncomfortable with ambiguities, mixed feelings, uncertainties, and other grey areas. They therefore tend to shoehorn everyone into polar extremes -- i.e., into a black or white box. This usually is evident in the frequent use of all-or-nothing expressions such as "you never" and "you always."

It also would be evident in the way your H categorizes everyone as "all good" or "all bad" -- and will recategorize someone from one polar extreme to the other, in just a few seconds, based on a minor comment or action. This sort of dysfunctional thinking is most evident in your 7-2-12 post, where you describe how your H quickly punishes anyone whom he perceives to be violating an "honor system deep inside of him."

This B-W thinking could explain, then, why your H is capable of being loving and considerate and then -- in just a few seconds -- flip to seeing you as "all black," at which times you will find him _"looking at me as if I'm the devil incarnate."
_
I therefore suggest you see a clinical psychologist -- for a visit or two all by yourself -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is you are dealing with. I also suggest that you read about BPD traits to see if most of them sound very familiar. An easy place to start reading is my description of these traits at My list of hell!. If that description rings a bell, I would be glad to discuss it with you. Take care, CW.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

CW, please take to heart what Uptown is telling you. He is the go-to person for BPD. Seriously.

I have dealt with similar behaviors; however, my husband is an active alcoholic, and many of the behaviors your husband exhibits are similar to what I have handled in the past.

For me, I had to detach. And when I say detach, I mean physically remove myself from the home. I still interact with my husband, he's still a crazy-making, drama-inducing drunk, but I take care of my business. I don't react any longer.

Boundaries are of utmost importance. Nobody is waking me up in the middle of the night unless it is really an emergency. I imagine your husband's anxiety is making him think everyday problems are actually emergencies ... at least in his mind. You sound like you handle most of the crazy-making with a calm demeanor.

However, separation may be the only current viable solution.


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## CrazyWoman (Jun 23, 2012)

Thanks for all the replies. As you can imagine, I've been here for a while and just reading things. So Uptown, I've read all of your posts on the topic of BPD. My problem is I explain away so many things, such as "oh, he's just stressed due to x, y, and z." And he does have things to be stressed about. I certainly don't mean to add to them and attempt to help, but I've gotten better at standing back when he needs to tend to it himself. There are 21 years worth of stories with the push-pull scenario. The push stories are not pretty, at all! 

Prodigal, the comment about being calm. Ummm...yeah, on the exterior, but what is going on inside of me is just about every emotion in the book. That's why I do step back/out to assess how I really feel about situation. Self-soothing, I believe it's called. Yes, I understand.

His appointment is late this afternoon. She is a clinical psychologist, btw. I made sure of this a few years ago when looking as I had read they might be able to assess a personality disorder. Last night he came to tell me when the appointment was set, and also made clear if "that lady" says he has a mental problem he will apologize. BUT, if she says he's normal, he will never forgive me. Wow! I did mention to him I don't know how much information he'll be able to get in one session. He said he knew and would continue to go until he was uncomfortable spending the money. This statement tells me 2 or 3 sessions maximum. He also mentioned he was very nervous about going. Sure he is. He doesn't have me to lean on as he did the last time.

Prodigal, I believe you're right about the separation. I've been steeling myself for this for a long time. I know the support is there from my mom as she knows the situation. I don't really discuss it with her, but she's seen him in action. My good mother doesn't encourage me to leave, as I've seen some parents do, but she waits for me to make my own decision. She has stated she worries for my well-being. Funny as she used to worry I would never couple with a partner and now look where I am.

Thanks so much for understanding and reading. He's sociable with me today, so it appears to start off with less tension.


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## Sanity (Mar 7, 2011)

CW,

Please listed to Uptown. He is an asset to TAM. Secondly you need to start looking at this long term. You are not getting an younger and every year that goes by without treatment makes it that much harder to heal. IMHO the odds of your husband transforming into a mentally healthy adult is slim. 21 years is just enough and I don't think anybody here would fault you if you just filed especially if you do not have young children in the mix.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

CrazyWoman said:


> His appointment is late this afternoon. She is a clinical psychologist, btw. I made sure of this a few years ago when looking as I had read they might be able to assess a personality disorder.


If she determines that he has full-blown BPD, it is unlikely she will tell him -- much less tell you. Because he is her client, she is ethically bound to protect HIS best interests, not yours. Generally, it is not in the best interests of a high functioning BPDer to be told the name of his disorder. This information therefore is routinely withheld from the client, and his family, by therapists. 

One reason is that, by recording his diagnosis as "BPD," the therapist effectively doubles the client's cost of treatments -- because American insurance companies nearly always refuse to cover any BPD treatments. The same treatments will be fully covered, however, when the therapist lists only the co-occurring clinical disorders (e.g., depression, bipolar, PTSD, or anxiety). BPD is nearly always accompanied by at least one of those disorders. 

There also are other reasons for withholding the BPD diagnosis. If you are interested, I discuss them in my post at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...-official-im-getting-divorced.html#post811909.

This is why, when BPD is a strong possibility, I always encourage the abused spouse to see her own psychologist -- one who has not seen or treated her spouse. Relying on your H's therapist for candid advice during the marriage would be as foolish as relying on his attorney for candid advice during the divorce. It is important that you obtain advice from a professional who is ethically bound to protect only YOUR best interests, not his.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Oh my god, what a whiny baby he is! I am totally exhausted just from reading what you are dealing with! This left ME feeling anxious! I really hope he has some success with the psychologist, it must be hell feeling like that all the time. You say you are working toward seperating, I think that would be a really good thing for you. No one deserves to have to live like this, you are seemingly at his mercy. Check out threads by Waking Up to Life, she is dealing with a husband quite similar to yours, and is making her plans to get out. I think you could really relate.


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## CrazyWoman (Jun 23, 2012)

Follow up one week (or so) later. He did go to the therapy session, but didn't discuss anything with me. This is fine as it is for him. The only thing I could glean from his session is from a note in a pants pocket that I pulled out before washing. It had 3 things written: 1) no sex when she does x, y, z. Okay, we don't have sex anytime, so I'm not sure of the significance of x, y, z. 2) housework! I guess he doesn't think I do enough housework? He's never mentioned it before. 3) try to figure out why he pushes those closest to him away from him. Yes! That's always confused me as to why he would push away his own kids and their respective families...not to mention my family, or even me.

He's been polite with me for the most part. There's been a few little comments, but he tends to readjust quickly. One thing that has bothered me has been his attempt at his family reconnection. He is doing well with it, but I don't seem to qualify for the same treatment. When we are going to be around his family, he feels the need to prep me on how to act. He even does this with my family! In his eyes, there is something I say or do incorrectly, so never meet his requirement. It's amazing I actually have gotten this far in life being so inadequate. 

Enough of me whining. I just wanted to update that we are currently in peace....for now. Who knows when the bottom will fall out, which it invariably will. It always does.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

CW, thanks so much for giving us an update. I'm pleased to hear you are enjoying a respite from the abuse, i.e., a calm before the next storm. Again, I suggest you see your own psychologist -- for a visit or two by yourself -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is you are dealing with.

I also suggest that you start participating (or at least lurking) at BPDfamily.com. That forum offers excellent laymen's advice in the message boards and professional advice in the 15 articles provided.


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## SouthernMiss (Apr 25, 2013)

I had the same thought reading through your post - Borderline. Or as my psych nurse dad would say "Borderline as h*ll!" 

I don't mean to make light of your situation.

It sounds utterly exhausting. It has to be. I think you're getting outstanding advice from Uptown. Take it, and take care of you.


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

CrazyWoman said:


> My problem is I explain away so many things, such as "oh, he's just stressed due to x, y, and z." And he does have things to be stressed about.


Stop enabling. Manipulative people take advantage of your consientiousness. 



> what is going on inside of me is just about every emotion in the book.


That's because he is waging emotional warfare. That's what manipulation is all about. I'd read Dr. George Simon's "In Sheep's Clothing, Understanding and Dealing with Manipulative People" so that you can learn every tactic by name and learn how to pre-empt them. 






> She is a clinical psychologist, btw.


One of the problems with these personalities is manipulation of their therapist. If there is no check to make sure they are telling the truth, they can weave any story they want.

My wife went for months to a therapist because I made divorce contingent upon it. After three months I barged into a session to discover she had lied the entire time about why she was there, and what our home life was like. 

That's what occurred to me with the things you mentioned as number one and two on your list.


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## iBolt (Aug 28, 2012)

CW. I feel for you but 21 yrs?! Are any of the biblical Job's daughters still alive. Surely you're one of them apparently. Uptown should be acknowledged for his knowledge of BPD though I am often wary of labelling things. I totally understand where you're coming from as my wife exhibits some of the characteristics your husband exhibits. You can read my recent post here:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/72610-why-constantly-threaten-divorce-now-ive-said-do-i-dont-care-anymore.html

PLEASE NOTE THAT IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO PLEASE SOMEONE WHO IS MANIPULATIVE. IT'S BEEN A PART OF THEIR LIFE LONG BEFORE YOU CAME ON THE SCENE BUT SOLIDIFIED BY AN ENABLER. 

You HAVE TO CALL HIM on his threats but you must be prepared to follow through if he wasn't bluffing. Next time he threatens you with divorce tell him you are happy for him to file for the divorce and you will not contest it. Next time he talks of moving to his dad's, genuinely offer to help him pack his things. See how he reacts! 

I have to however emphasise that if you choose to call his bluff, you must be prepared to follow through in case he is serious otherwise you will be doing the same thing as he is - threatening divorce.

After an 18 month marriage full of divorce threats (honeymoon included btw), storming out of the house, absolutely scary tantrums when i was driving and emotionally draining demands, I finally gave up begging, buying treats and grovelling. I have now told her to go ahead. Her tune has changed significantly since I took this stance. She is now with her folks in America though she is now telling that since I was happy for her to file for the divorce, I should go and file for it instead. A total turning of things on me. 

The sad thing about this all for these manipulative, controlling and unstable people is that they push their partners to the point where they give up and stop caring. The pain of leaving is subsumed by the intolerable anguish of marriage built on fear.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CrazyWoman (Jun 23, 2012)

Interesting twist. I believe I may have been duped about him actually going to see the counselor. He never carries that much cash on him in order to pay for a session and there's no record of any charges or debits. I'm going to ask him when his next session is and "oh, by the way, how did you pay last time." I feel this is a tad deceitful by me, but now I want to know.

Thanks for the reminder of the website Uptown. I had located it a few years ago and then got busy. There's quite a bit of good things in there for anyone, mental illness or not.

His mood is still fairly constant with the same blips, usually negativity about my family and friends. I just tell him I'm changing the topic and then do. It sometimes works. He was doing this last night in regards to my family, so I told him "okay, I'm changing the topic now. So tomorrow A's daughter will be taking her drivers test." His response, with a scowl, was "I don't know who that is." I tell him and then he starts talking negatively about something my friend did a year ago. "She's so weird. I don't understand why you want to hang out with weird people." Seriously. Let! It! Go!


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## SaltInWound (Jan 2, 2013)

iBolt said:


> She is now with her folks in America though she is now telling that since I was happy for her to file for the divorce, I should go and file for it instead. A total turning of things on me.


Of course she would tell you to be the one to file. Why would she want to be labeled the one who officially killed the marriage? It is easier for her to cry to everyone that YOU did this to her.


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