# Justified Affairs?



## brokenbloke (Feb 21, 2012)

What's the general opinion on the degree of justification for an affair? Or to put it another way, can an affair be mutually the fault of both spouses, or have various degrees of fault? What I mean is...while many affairs are simply 100% the fault of the WS (BS was a good spouse yet still gets cheated on=100% fault of WS), what if the BS was a bad spouse. What if the BS was either emotionally abusing, neglectful, didn't pull their weight in the marriage etc...and then the WS spouses seeks emotional fullfilment in another...Would then the A not at least be partially the fault of the BS?

Let me put it this way. My spouse, while acknowledging the A was wrong, does insist that it would have NEVER happened had I not been a ****ty husband. And I do admit I was. I was neglectful and she did most of the heavy lifting in the marriage. We are trying to R now but it's tricky, and we both just feel like we've both done wrong and been wronged...Don't worry we're getting MCing to help sort it out, but I was wondering what others' experiences were in cases where the A was not just a matter of the BS being a great spouse before being cheated on. What of those who were ****ty spouses before the A happened?


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

only valid justification I can think of off the top of my head is when an alien flies down from his spaceship and holds a ray gun to the WS stating she must have sex with him or she and the rest of the human race will die


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

There is never anything but 100% responsibility on the part of the cheater. Never. I don't care what scenario you come up with, the person who cheats made that CHOICE.

When you have a lousy marriage there's 4 options.
1) agree to work on it
2) do nothing and just continue on
3) divorce
4) cheat
Each person makes their own choice and that choice is 100% on them. You didn't choose to cheat despite being in the same lousy marriage, did you? Don't let her pull that crap. Because that's what it is - crap. And if your MC says differently find a new one.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Almostrecovered said:


> only valid justification I can think of off the top of my head is when an alien flies down from his spaceship and holds a ray gun to the WS stating she must have sex with him or she and the rest of the human race will die


Oh yeah, I forgot about that one. And the Ceti eel too


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## jnj express (Mar 28, 2011)

Justified A's---NO SUCH ANIMAL EXISTS


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Almostrecovered said:


> only valid justification I can think of off the top of my head is when an alien flies down from his spaceship and holds a ray gun to the WS stating she must have sex with him or she and the rest of the human race will die


Or, you accidentally trip and land on someone's penis in your vagina.

Well, not YOUR vagina LOL.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

Hope1964 said:


> Oh yeah, I forgot about that one. And the Ceti eel too


The Ceti eel is such a given I forgot about it


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

Speaking as a husband who cheated... Our marriage had a lot of problems, and like many, intimacy was a significant part of that. I would lay the blame for the problems in our marriage more on my wife's lap than my own (maybe 60/40), as I was at least trying to change things to be "better". 

But the affairs and decisions to have sex with someone else are 100% mine. Nobody made me contact another woman. Nobody else gve me a lift to the hotel. With things being unbearable o me, the correct decision would have been to end the marriage. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Almostrecovered said:


> only valid justification I can think of off the top of my head is when an alien flies down from his spaceship and holds a ray gun to the WS stating she must have sex with him or she and the rest of the human race will die


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

Almostrecovered said:


> The Ceti eel is such a given I forgot about it


Well, with this new generation, don't forget the Centaurian Slug. 

Centaurian slug - Memory Alpha, the Star Trek Wiki


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## Complexity (Dec 31, 2011)

While it's not an excuse, I'd understand, especially if the betrayed spouse was abusive. Divorce might seem as an easy option but individual's circumstances differentiate.


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## cantmove (Feb 20, 2012)

I wasn't a great wife. I was insecure and controlling at times and had big problems in the bedroom not horrible at first but not good . I was going through years of infertility treatment and he cheated for a year while I was pregnant. Said his needs wern't met and I wasn't supportive. I forgave him but sex became nonexistent after that. He cheated again. I was unhappy ( not knowing why) he was pulling away nothing changed. He never tried to change himself. I did but we just kept going. I caught him again 09/2010 after he was with samewoman 7 more years. I forgave him again. I worked so hard on myself and again he didn't , he began cheating again after six months. I found out last week after he moved b/c he said he just wasn't happy. They had beeen back together for a year and I found out last week. So you tell me was that my fault too? I will regret my mistakes in my marriage for the rest of my life and I would give anything to go back and be different. He blames me. He says that due to my mistakes he didn't love me anymore and if he had loved me enough he wouldn''t have cheated. I think that is total bull****. I am 50% responsible for a weak marriage but he is 100% responsible for choosing to lie, manipulate and cheat on me for 13 years.


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## cantmove (Feb 20, 2012)

that_girl said:


> Or, you accidentally trip and land on someone's penis in your vagina.
> 
> Well, not YOUR vagina LOL.


I was crying but now I'm lmao!!!!

Thanks That Girl


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

People have to take responsibility of their actions. You could have said that you would never have been a ****ty husband in the first place if not for {multiple reasons, did not love you enough, did not support you enough, caught up with work etc}. See, you can always decide on what you chose to do. That way she is putting the blame of the affair on your behavior does not bode well for your marriage


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

that_girl said:


> Or, you accidentally trip and land on someone's penis in your vagina.
> 
> Well, not YOUR vagina LOL.


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## FrankKissel (Nov 14, 2011)

Being a bad spouse doesn't justify cheating by the other spouse.

The flip side of that, though, is that one who is betrayed shouldn't use the cheating to gloss over or ignore their own contributions to the environment that made the marriage vulnerable in the first place. And I think that happens a lot ... "He/she cheated, therefore he/she is responsible for the lousy state of our marriage." 

Cheating in most (not all) instances is a symptom of a struggling marriage, not the cause of one.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

brokenbloke said:


> ...Or to put it another way, can an affair be mutually the fault of both spouses, or have various degrees of fault? ...::snip::... What if the BS was either emotionally abusing, neglectful, didn't pull their weight in the marriage etc...and then the WS spouses seeks emotional fullfilment in another...Would then the A not at least be partially the fault of the BS?





> Let me put it this way. My spouse, while acknowledging the A was wrong, does insist that it would have NEVER happened had I not been a ****ty husband. ...::snip::... What of those who were ****ty spouses before the A happened?


Speaking as a former disloyal spouse, here's the deal. The affair is 100% my fault. Period. End of discussion. I'm an adult and I am personally responsible for the choices I make. I CHOSE to turn to another man rather than turning to my own husband!

Now, before my affair my Dear Hubby was not a ****ty hubby but he was neglectful. Between being left alone, greatly declining sex, and being ignored, it hurt me a GREAT DEAL and that neglect put me in a position that was vulnerable when someone came along and paid A LOT of complimentary attention to me! But can you see the one mistake that I think a lot of disloyal spouses make? It is not up to my husband to "make" me feel less lonely, more desirable, or less ignored. That is up to ME to choose how I feel, and yep his actions may affect my choice, but ultimately I AM RESPONSIBLE. Furthermore, if his actions have a tendency to create an environment where I'm vulnerable...if his behavior is hurting me...I am also responsible to communicate that to him in a way that indicates MY SIDE and does not attempt to control him or "make him make me feel better." 

I'll give you an example. My Dear Hubby is ignoring me, sex is declining to once-a-month and it is focused on his orgasm, and I feel lonely. It is my job to NOT TURN TO ANYONE ELSE because in my vow I said I would forsake all others. Furthermore, it is my job to be transparent with my Dear Hubby and let him know that his behavior is hurting me, I feel lonely, I think he is losing his love for me, and to ASK FOR WHAT I NEED!!! If he's not willing to do or give what I ask, it is my job to see if there's an alternative that he IS willing to do. And if he ignores my request, it is my job to make sure he understands that *this choice* leads to *this cost*. Just because he's being a bit of a jerk (and somewhat disregarding his promises), that does not give me the right or the justification to disregard the vows and act in kind -- nor to break my vows and turn to someone else to meet my needs. 

That's because as a married person, I am not married "to have my needs met" (although that is a bi-product). I am married so that I can MEET HIS NEEDS and to grow as a person while I study him and learn to do that!! 


So in summary: Were you negligent? I bet you were--not disputing that at all. Should you correct that? Yes you should because you made a vow to be a student of your wife as long as you're alive and to LOVE HER!! Love is ACTIVE ... so you are breaking your vows when you neglected her. To rebuild love and recover after an affair, chances are pretty darn high that you will need to once again do the things that kindled love...both of you will.

But does that mean you are 25% "to blame" and she's 75% "to blame" for her affair? 

NO!!!!

It is hers 100%. Period. End of discussion. It is her responsibility to put a fence of protection around herself, her heart and her marriage. She is responsible to know herself and her weaknesses well enough to know: "If I do *this* I'm vulnerable and will put my spouse and marriage at risk so I have to avoid *this*. I'll do *that* instead." 

Your marriage is like a stone fence around a little lamb. Your negligence may have removed a few of the stones and taken down the gate so that the lamb was vulnerable to wolves. BUT the lamb jumped over the fence and went to play with the wolf!! Yep you need to learn to not take down those stones, but it is FAR more important for the lamb to learn to not jump over the fence, to learn that wolves are dangerous, and maybe to even learn that if a stone falls on the EAST SIDE it should go to the WEST SIDE where the fence is tall and firm.


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## Jill_B29 (Feb 3, 2012)

*one who is betrayed shouldn't use the cheating to gloss over or ignore their own contributions to the environment that made the marriage vulnerable in the first place*


The 'marriage' wasn't vulnerable, the cheating spouse was... and that's *all* on them. They _allowed_ themselves to get to a place where they _could _cheat. _They_ had a choice to make and they made a destructive choice. They could have chosen MC, they could have chosen honest communication, they could have chosen to leave. They didn't. They *chose *to cheat.


*My spouse, while acknowledging the A was wrong, does insist that it would have NEVER happened had I not been a ****ty husband. And I do admit I was. I was neglectful and she did most of the heavy lifting in the marriage.*


Please Brokenbloke, _never_ accept that the cheating was in any way _your_ fault, that's 100% on your wife ! A lot of books out there on the subject will take this angle but IMO they are wrong, wrong, wrong. That's blaming the marriage and not the cheating spouse.

As has been stated, if the marriage is not good you _both_ had options, identify, acknowledge and work honestly on the issues, stay and ignore them or leave... cheating should _never_ be an "option" (funnily enough it was my WH who was the "****ty spouse" yet he was the one who cheated... go figure? By "****ty" I mean I was the one who acknowledged our issues, while he ignored and denied there were issues... you can't 'fix' what you won't acknowledge)

She's trying to deflect blame and avoid responsibilty... don't allow her to do that. She has to own "her ****" (the cheating) you have to own "your ****" (being a ****ty husband) Don't confuse the two, resentment will build up in you making reconciling nigh on impossible.



Question for the more experienced posters... Are we allowed to recommend self help books here?


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Jill_B29 said:


> Question for the more experienced posters... Are we allowed to recommend self help books here?


As long as you don't spam the board with it, yeah.


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## Jill_B29 (Feb 3, 2012)

Thank you Hope♥... Promise I won't spam LOL, it's just one book that my WH and I have found the most helpful to us in our situation.



"How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair" by Linda J. MacDonald... it's very short and concise and has some very useful suggestions for the wayward spouse. I'd suggest you_ both_ read it Brokenbloke as it can help you define what you need/want from her.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

brokenbloke said:


> What's the general opinion on the degree of justification for an affair? Or to put it another way, can an affair be mutually the fault of both spouses, or have various degrees of fault? What I mean is...while many affairs are simply 100% the fault of the WS (BS was a good spouse yet still gets cheated on=100% fault of WS), what if the BS was a bad spouse. What if the BS was either emotionally abusing, neglectful, didn't pull their weight in the marriage etc...and then the WS spouses seeks emotional fullfilment in another...Would then the A not at least be partially the fault of the BS?
> 
> Let me put it this way. My spouse, while acknowledging the A was wrong, does insist that it would have NEVER happened had I not been a ****ty husband. And I do admit I was. I was neglectful and she did most of the heavy lifting in the marriage. We are trying to R now but it's tricky, and we both just feel like we've both done wrong and been wronged...Don't worry we're getting MCing to help sort it out, but I was wondering what others' experiences were in cases where the A was not just a matter of the BS being a great spouse before being cheated on. What of those who were ****ty spouses before the A happened?


No excuse to cheat. No justification.


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## jnj express (Mar 28, 2011)

The cheater is always responsible, and is to be held accountable-----there are alternatives

Therein lies another problem, tho, for the cheater, and the betrayed.

If the betrayed doesn't respond to the cheater, and the cheater says to themselves, I know I shouldn't cheat, and I should end this mge. (If that is what it has gotten to) But they can't, WHY, cuz they can't make it in the big bad world on their own

There are many times when we would bring an ABUSED, BEATEN woman into the office---and we had the guy in custody, right there---we would tell her do you want to press charges---she would say NO----Why do you think that was------Cuz if we put him in Jail---she would starve---he is her bankroll----How many cheating spouses, suck it up and stay for that reason alone---I will tell you it is a He*l of a lot of them----How many betrayed spouses suck it up and stay for the same reason----SAME ANSWER AS ABOVE!!!!!!


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)




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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

Hope1964 said:


> There is never anything but 100% responsibility on the part of the cheater. Never. I don't care what scenario you come up with, the person who cheats made that CHOICE.
> 
> When you have a lousy marriage there's 4 options.
> 1) agree to work on it
> ...


This! Can't think of anything to add...which for me is something!


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

cantmove said:


> I was crying but now I'm lmao!!!!
> 
> Thanks That Girl


Your husband's a prick! We're behind you Cantmove!


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

No justification for an affair. It is purkey selfish and hatefull.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Goldmember357 (Jan 31, 2012)

brokenbloke said:


> What's the general opinion on the degree of justification for an affair? Or to put it another way, can an affair be mutually the fault of both spouses, or have various degrees of fault? What I mean is...while many affairs are simply 100% the fault of the WS (BS was a good spouse yet still gets cheated on=100% fault of WS), what if the BS was a bad spouse. What if the BS was either emotionally abusing, neglectful, didn't pull their weight in the marriage etc...and then the WS spouses seeks emotional fullfilment in another...Would then the A not at least be partially the fault of the BS?
> 
> Let me put it this way. My spouse, while acknowledging the A was wrong, does insist that it would have NEVER happened had I not been a ****ty husband. And I do admit I was. I was neglectful and she did most of the heavy lifting in the marriage. We are trying to R now but it's tricky, and we both just feel like we've both done wrong and been wronged...Don't worry we're getting MCing to help sort it out, but I was wondering what others' experiences were in cases where the A was not just a matter of the BS being a great spouse before being cheated on. What of those who were ****ty spouses before the A happened?


Hell awaits those who commit infidelity


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## snap (Oct 3, 2011)

Look, if she decided to kill you instead of cheating on you for being a lousy husband, would you still buy this same explanation? That you had it coming?

(A rhetorical question of course, you'd be dead)


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

snap said:


> Look, if she decided to kill you instead of cheating on you for being a lousy husband, would you still buy this same explanation? That you had it coming?
> 
> (A rhetorical question of course, you'd be dead)


But haven't courts let women walk on self defense or temporary insanity when they kill an abusive husband? That would support the idea that there ARE justified circumstances. Whether you personally agree with it or not (being dead and the offender and all).

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## snap (Oct 3, 2011)

I'm talking about the OP's circumstances. Granted she didn't kill him, but did the next best thing.


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## jenis (Feb 9, 2011)

My husband cheated briefly during a bout with depression that was 100% caused by my own dysfunctions that developed over a period of years. While the 'the act' was his own doing, I know it never would have happened if I had faced up to and accepted help with my issues.


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## SprucHub (Jan 13, 2012)

I have to disagree slightly. First, I'd have to say that I define cheating as being dishonest or secretive about one's love life; or acting romantically with a third party against your spouse's wishes. Thus, a 3some or open marriage is not cheating, unless a spouse breaks a clear rule.

Given this definition, cheating is justified if all of the following are true:

(1) one spouse is intentionally neglectful or hurtful (meaning abandonment - e.g., no or only pity sex for years; 

(2) the neglected spouse clearly and calmly over an extended period tries to get his/her spouse to see what this neglect is doing, but the spouse is too irrational or selfish to understand the problem (will listen, but not hear; will get defensive or non-communicative); 

(3) there is an external factor making separation or divorce exceptionally difficult for the neglected spouse (e.g., not wanting to leave the children; impossible financial situation); and 

(4) an umambiguous communication from the neglected spouse (whether the other spouse chooses to understand it or not) that the state of the marriage is broken in a manner that the neglected spouse no longer feels any obligation of fidelity.

In this situation, the neglected spouse can justifiably engage with others without informing his/her spouse, provided he/she does not expose the spouse to any communicable diseases. 

While not relevant to me, from reading this board, these circumstances are not unheard of. The point is that a a**hole spouse, should not be able to intentionally lock his/her partner into an unhappy situation because divorce is not an option. (E.g., choose either to never feel loved again or only see the children on weekends.)

Some may question, why doesn't the neglected spouse have to say "hey, I am hitting on the mailman". The answer is simple, the neglectful spouse is not exactly a rational actor.


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## snap (Oct 3, 2011)

By pt. 4 I realized SprucHub must be a lawyer.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

FrankKissel said:


> Cheating in most (not all) instances is a symptom of a struggling marriage, not the cause of one.


Correction. Cheating is a symptom of poor marital boundaries. It's been shown time and again that even happily married people will cheat if they cross marital boundaries.

■Any kind of physical touch that lasts for more than three seconds.
■Any kind of physical touch besides a handshake, pat on the back, or a brief hug (again, no longer than three seconds).
■Full-frontal hugs. This is when the bodies are completely touching, and not just an upper body hug.
■Being alone socially with the other person. There are times when a job might require two people to be alone. In these times, people should work together as professionals and not friends. There are times when a job might require more than the three second rule (i.e. athletic trainers, professional ballroom dancers, etc.). In these cases, professionalism and not engaging in any other outside of work interactions are of the utmost importance.
■Secret conversations (by phone, internet, etc.) with the other person. This includes facebook and other social networking sites.
■Secret get togethers. It doesn't matter if it is "just lunch" or "just coffee."
■Ultimately, you should ask yourself, "Would my spouse be comfortable if he/she saw what I was doing with this other person right now?"

Even a spouse who is prone to having an affair, would find it practically impossible to have one if he/she does not cross marital boundaries.


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