# If you were wiling to try to forgive, would you need to know everything first?



## BaT (Jun 16, 2013)

Hi All

So my wife wants forgiveness for what she claims is an EA, but I can't accept that it didn't go physical. Too many clues suggesting otherwise.

The problem I have is that I can't move forward until she confesses because I have too much doubt that she is lying.

I honestly don't know whether I will be able to forgive her if it did go physical, but it would at least allow us to discuss why it happened so I can begin to understand her side.

I know there's the poly test, but I get the feeling that most couples don't go through with this and I would like her to just tell me everything out of respect (which I am due).

Also we had one counselling session and the counsellor suggested that we 'look forward' and try not to go over what has happened, which is an ideal statement for my wife to remind me about!

Is it just the way it is, that you have to move on with the marriage and accept that you'll never know for sure?

Thanks

BaT


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## AngryandUsed (Jun 23, 2011)

Change the counselor?


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## BaT (Jun 16, 2013)

Yeah the thought crossed my mind.

Because I'm not convinced she has stopped contact with the other person, I have said that I will not be going to more sessions until I can see her phone records. This is so I can see if she is telling the truth about when she said she last contacted him.

I don't want to be trying to fix us with counselling whist she's still in contact with the guy and whilst I suspect she's still lying about it. 

Does that sound like the right decision?


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## SaltInWound (Jan 2, 2013)

You have to know what you are forgiving.


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## SaltInWound (Jan 2, 2013)

BaT said:


> Because I'm not convinced she has stopped contact with the other person, I have said that I will not be going to more sessions until I can see her phone records. This is so I can see if she is telling the truth about when she said she last contacted him.


What is her reason for not showing you the phone records? She should give you all passwords for you to verify everything.


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## Rugs (Apr 12, 2013)

I could not forgive, PERIOD. But if YOU want to forgive, you have to know everything. YES.


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## TimesOfChange (Mar 20, 2013)

100% or nothing!


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## BetrayedAgain7 (Apr 27, 2013)

Sounds to me like you are just wandering along hoping for the best. Have you put in place any boundaries around R?
What you are willing to accept and what you will not accept going forward? Does she know?



> I know there's the poly test, but I get the feeling that most couples don't go through with this and I would like her to just tell me everything out of respect (which I am due).


I know this is what you would_ like _and what you are _due,_ but does she know the consequence of not respecting you?

Have you given her any consequences?


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## Jasel (Jan 8, 2013)

Get a different counselor and go through with the polygraph. Ya and betrayed brought up a good question, what consequences has she faced for what she did?


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## BaT (Jun 16, 2013)

_Sounds to me like you are just wandering along hoping for the best.
_

I've given her an ultimatum.

No access to accounts = no counselling = no marriage

This is what I wanted to discuss, whether this was a right thing to do or whether I should go ahead with counselling.

Her reason for not giving up on the phone records is that she feels what's done is done and we should move forward like the counsellor suggested. I refuse.

My interpretation is that I will find out she's still lying.

Her life as a single mum would be really quite difficult, depending on what support she gets from me (what I choose / uk courts decide??) and the child's natural father which has been quite limited so far. She would have to be dependent on family I imagine.

I'm thinking that the longer I hold out the more likely she'll agree to my requests.

However she is so depressed at the minute and she is an emotional person at the best of times, so it's possible that she'll decide she can't go through this anyway.


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## Rottdad42 (Nov 26, 2012)

BaT, I agree with Salt, why can't you see the phone records. If there is nothing to hide, then there is nothing to hide. Your questions can be answered quickly. She is giving you the song in dance. So she using or manipulating the counselors information in to not giving you the info, because IMHO she be caught "red handed" and she knows it. If I had to prove my innocence and this was the only way to do it then "BOOM" here honey here are the phone records to show you I am loyal. Very simple. I can't tell you if she is unfaithful, but what I can tell you is that she is following the script, no two ways about it. I'm sorry "what's done is done" sounds like to me the deed has been done. You busted her, tell me everything or I'm gone. I would be gone anyway, I could never trust her or would want to be physical with her ever. The marriage has been tainted in the worst way. Good luck to you.


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## pollywog (May 30, 2013)

Yes. For me to forgive I would have to know it all.


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## jupiter13 (Jun 8, 2012)

change counselors there is no "going forward" without total disclosure.

only when you are ready.
check everything
question anything


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## BaT (Jun 16, 2013)

OK thanks guys. I just wanted a 2nd opinion.

I'll sit it out because she'll need me soon for one thing or another, that I can be sure of.

If I only agree to talk to her about anything after she gives me access to her accounts (bearing in mind she'll need money off me I imagine) could this be seen as bullying or blackmail during divorce proceedings (UK)?

Thanks


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

No. I did not want *any* details. The fact that she cheated on me was all I wanted to know.

We did reconcile.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

She's attempting to rug-sweep. Don't let that happen.

You will very likely never know for certain what happened. Only she and the other man know that. But you are not getting the whole story now. Often, cheaters become more honest (although maybe not the entire truth) when a poly is scheduled but those are not 100% either.

At a minimum you need a new counselor and one who won't help her rug-sweep by expecting you to move on before resolving this issue.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

With all due respect, the fact she refuses the records is an admission of guilt. So know that you have her in this lie, I think you can presume she had sex with him. And the fact she still contacts him means she cares for him more than you.

So why are you keeping a betrayer and continuing liar who loves him more than you around?


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## HarryDoyle (Jan 19, 2013)

I had to know! My own mind games were worse (usually) than anything she did (almost) and my WW obliged. She didn't want to, but somehow she understands. I wish I didn't need them, but I have a vivid imagination.

One thing to remember: You are in charge! He doesn't have to do anything you ask, but if he doesn't you can always leave. If you need the details, then get them. You both have the same decisions, either "R" or "D". If you can't put your mind to rest, and he doesn't fully confess R, is going to be near impossible.


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## bryanp (Aug 25, 2011)

1. Get tested for STD's.
2. See an attorney to understand your options.

She refuses to be open and truthful with you you and your gut is telling you she is still communicating with her OM. If the roles were reversed she would not put up with stonewalling from you so why are you? She continues to disrespect you. If you do not respect yourself then who will?


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

BaT said:


> I've given her an ultimatum.
> 
> No access to accounts = no counselling = no marriage
> 
> ...


Glad you are in the right frame of mind. 
That's the thing, she's implicitly admiting that whatever you can see there is serious, hard enough to be a dealbreaker.

I'd fire this crappy MC and then I'd take this aproach.

_Darling, as you are basicaly telling me - while not telling me anything - that what was happening is a dealbreaker I'm going to take your - unspoken - words and conclusions at face value and I'm going to divorce you._

That simply, she asumes the truth is a dealbreaker (what measn it was - still is? - likely a full blown EA-PA) and you agree with her.

Man, can't you make some snooping work on your own and find the truth? You need a full disclosure, to your entire satisfaction.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

Ask this old fashioned MC whether she knows Shirley Glass's works and research. If not then she's missing the mark completely.

Excerpted from NOT "Just Friends" (By Shirley Glass).

After infidelity has entered a marriage, questions about specific details are frequently an entryway into a deeper story. For example, questions about what gifts or cards were exchanged are really probing for how invested the unfaithful partner was in the affair--emotionally and financially. One unfaithful wife and her affair partner made cassette tapes for each other with special love songs. Although it was extremely painful for the betrayed husband to listen to the romantic words of the songs, it helped him realize why it was so hard for his wife to let go of the affair. He was also shaken by what he had neglected. Ultimately, he was inspired to bring more romance back into their marriage.

The following 10 questions will guide your exploration of the circumstances of the infidelity and the meaning behind it. Some of them are questions I use in my clinical practice to bring a slightly different perspective on the underlying motivations. Discussing them will give you the raw material from which to co-construct your story.

*1. What did you say to yourself that gave you permission to get involved?*

There are all kinds of reasons for not stepping over the line that would normally stop you from entering a forbidden territory. Vulnerabilities and values will be revealed by the thoughts and actions that came up as you crossed thresholds into the extramarital relationship. Most likely, discussing these questions will uncover the magnetism of the relationship, the sense of curiosity, or the belief that nothing bad would come of it. One of the most revealing thoughts is whether the unfaithful partner considered the consequences of getting involved or only of getting caught.

For example, how did Ralph (who was married to Rachel) decide to go ahead with that secret lunch date he had with Lara? What was he anticipating? It's important to understand how a platonic friendship can shift into an affair. When people confide to opposite-sex friends about problems in their marriage, they are revealing a weak spot and signaling their availability at the same time. Although women share deep feelings with lots of people, particularly other women, men are usually most comfortable sharing their feelings in a love relationship. As a result, when a relationship becomes emotionally intimate, men tend to sexualize it. 

Through discussions with his wife, Lisa, Les figured out how he let himself be drawn into an affair with Fiona, a new colleague at work. He recognized that it started off with his compassion for Fiona's situation. He was moved by her tale of a distressed marriage, a disabled child, and a terminally ill father who lived with her.

Les admitted that he was flattered by Fiona's idealizing him when she compared him to her insensitive husband. He pictured himself as her protector rescuing her from her troubled life. One freezing Sunday, when he got a call from Fiona asking him to drive over and give her dead battery a charge he did share it with Lisa. Later, he and Lisa agreed that when he stopped talking about Fiona at home and started keeping his weekend phone calls secret, the friendship had shifted into an emotional affair. Sexual intimacy developed as Les became convinced that he was "in love" with Fiona, and he began to detach emotionally and sexually from the marriage.

Fiona had grown up in a working-class family without luxuries. She was thrilled when Les took her out to a simple lunch at a restaurant that had table service. In contrast, when Les and Lisa went to five-star restaurants, they took it for granted as part of their lifestyle. Les felt gratified that he could add a little joy to Fiona's troubled life.

Because Les and Lisa talked about how he felt sorry for Fiona, it became clear to both of them that he was vulnerable to rescuing maidens in distress. He vowed that in the future, he would erect distinct boundaries with unhappy, attractive women who touched his kind heart. When involved partners share their feelings on this level, they are letting their betrayed spouse inside their mind and re-forging their bond. They not only are discussing what occurred, but together they are gaining insight into the underlying dynamics.

*2. After the first time you had sex, did you feel guilty?*

Asking about guilt reveals the internalized values of the unfaithful partner. Some people never feel any guilt about getting involved. People who anticipate guilty feelings before they act are more inclined to avoid dangerous crossings. Others feel guilty after they act, although guilt after the transgression doesn't necessarily keep them from repeating their "sin."

Some people feel so disgusted with themselves after their first extramarital sex that they get together again with the affair partner as soon as possible: another dose of the aphrodisiac offers them a temporary escape from their self-loathing. Some get rid of their guilt and continue the affair by rationalizing that nobody is getting hurt because they are "not taking anything away" from their spouse or family. Others transform guilty feelings by taking responsibility and terminating their extramarital behaviors long before they are discovered.

*3. How could it go on so long if you knew it was wrong?*

Affairs are both messy and glamorous. The forbidden, unstable nature of secret affairs keeps passion flowing years beyond what's common in a stable relationship. Unfaithful spouses often appear to be addicted to their lovers. They fail in their efforts to end the affair time and time again, pulled back by a magnetic force they can't seem to resist. Only with great determination are they able to break the spell.

Comprehending what started an affair is different from comprehending what kept it going. It may have started out of a shared interest or sexual attraction but continued because of a deepening emotional attachment. Or it may have started as an emotional affair and continued because the sex was so great. Or it may have started because the marriage was in a slump but continued because it assumed a life of its own long after the marriage improved.

It is as important to understand how the affair ended as it is to understand what sustained it. The ramifications of an affair that was ended by the unfaithful spouse before disclosure are very different from an affair that was ended either by the affair partner or by the ultimatums of the betrayed partner. If the affair ended abruptly, the attachment will be harder to break than if the affair died a natural death. It's easier to put a relationship behind you if you're the one who made the decision to leave.

*4. Did you think about me at all?*

If the unfaithful partner had been thinking about the betrayed partner, he or she wouldn't have gotten so involved in the first place. The act of infidelity is not about the person who was betrayed--it is about the person who did the betraying. Betrayed spouses often see themselves as a central character in a spouse's affair and believe that every step was taken with them in mind. "How could you do this to me?" they ask. The reality is that the involved spouse probably didn't consider his or her partner much at all. Simply put, unfaithful partners seldom anticipate the tragic consequences or the pain they inflict.

It will probably be hurtful for betrayed partners to learn that although unfaithful spouses have difficulty suppressing thoughts of their lovers at home, they are unlikely to think about their spouses while they are in their love nests. Intrusive thoughts of lovers flow from necessity of maintaining secrets, but it takes little energy to suppress thoughts of socially sanctioned marriages.

*5. What did you share about us?*

This question addresses the issues of loyalty to the marriage and the nature of emotional intimacy in the affair. The betrayed partner has an understandable interest in knowing how much of a window the affair partner had into the marriage. The betrayed partner might also want to know how he or she and the marriage were portrayed.

Some unfaithful partners give positive accounts of their marriages and glowing descriptions of their spouses, to the bewilderment and chagrin of their affair partners. Others describe their spouses as cold or distant. It's hard to know whether this is an attempt to deceive by making the marriage look bad or whether it is a misguided unburdening of real marital woes. In any case, if you are the unfaithful partner, it's important for you to talk to your spouse about real problems in the marriage that you've discussed only with your affair partner. The next chapter will help you both review the story of your marriage and address these problems together.

In the event that the marriage was shielded and the betrayed spouse was never discussed, why were these topics not discussed with the affair partner? Some unfaithful partners try to keep their double lives completely separate by compartmentalizing. They may delude themselves into thinking that they are honoring their marriage by shielding it from the scrutiny of the person they are cheating with

*6. Did you talk about love or about a future together?
*
Talking about love is likely to bring to the surface errors of assumed similarity. The betrayed partner might insist that love and marriage were part of the picture and won't believe otherwise. If the involved partner does confess to being in love, this admission can make sense of events in a way that rote denials never could. It would explain why the affair went on so long and why it took so long to recover from the loss.

If you are the involved partner, however, you should not fabricate a story of unrequited love just to satisfy your partner's misguided projections. Be honest about whatever romantic declarations or talk of the future did occur. Otherwise, your betrayed partner may fill in the blanks with scenarios that are far more painful than the actual truth. Admit it if you ever shared dreams of "riding off into the sunset" together or said "I love you" in the heat of passion. I have seen it backfire when betrayed partners found incriminating love letters or e-mails after involved partners denied exchanging words of love or dreams of the future.

If you are the betrayed partner, make a strong effort to hear the story without filtering it through your own subjective lens. Infidelity does occur without falling in love. You must be open to versions that vary from your belief system unless you have valid evidence that you are getting a watered-down rendition.

*7. What did you see in the affair partner?*

The betrayed partner will already have a portrait of the affair partner, but it is almost never the whole picture. Betrayed spouses are prone to place all the blame on the affair partner, preferring to believe that their gullible spouse was manipulated and seduced. They may not be willing to accept that the person to whom they're married took an active role, and therefore displace a lot of the anger and rage onto the affair partner. Involved partners must recount the ways they encouraged the affair and invested energy to keep it going. It is less likely that an infidelity will happen again when the involved partner owns up to having been a full participant.

Al and Amber quarreled about their divergent perceptions of his affair partner, Zelda, who worked for him. Amber regarded Zelda as "a ***** and a manipulative **** who was out to get Al's money." In reaction, Al glorified Zelda's competence and loyalty. But the more Al talked about Zelda, the more he realized that he could never have maintained a long-term relationship with her because of her mood swings. Amber, on the other hand, grew to understand that Zelda's constant praise and high energy appealed to Al. Finally, they arrived at a combined picture of Zelda as a hard-working woman with a charged personality who used flattery to get what she wanted

Betrayed partners vacillate between glorifying the lover as an incomparable rival and disparaging him or her as a despicable human being. Questions about physical appearance, personality, and intellect are attempts to see whether they measure up to their rival in sex appeal and achievement. These questions aren't helpful, as they seldom reveal the lure of the affair partners looking rather ordinary. The appeal of the affair is frequently in the positive mirroring or the sounding board it provides, rather than in the lover's charisma.

*8. What did you like about yourself in the affair? How were you different?*

Instead of focusing on what the affair partner was like, it is more productive to focus on what the unfaithful partner was like in the extramarital relationship. New relationships allow people to be different: more assertive, more frivolous, or more giving. A strong attraction of affairs is the opportunity to try on new roles: the insensitive, detached husband becomes energized by his own empathy and devotion; the sexually uninterested wife is exhilarated by newfound passion and erotic fantasies. In long-term relationships, the potential to develop a different persona is constricted by familiarity. For example, a man who is a powerful CEO in a large corporation is regarded and teased in his family of origin as "the baby."

A good question for the involved partner is: "What did you experience about yourself in the affair that you would like to experience in the marriage?" Perhaps the marriage can begin to foster these positive aspects of the self. In fact, the betrayed partner may find it hurtful that the involved partner enjoyed them first with somebody else.

*9. Were there previous infidelities or opportunities, and how was this time similar or different?
*
This is an opportunity to examine any patterns of infidelity or near misses that may be relevant to how this affair unfolded. Discuss how you or your partner handled previous temptations, even if no lines were crossed. Explore past experiences of slippery slopes and blurred boundaries. If this is not the first incident, ask how this infidelity is different from or the same as the others. Were there earlier experiences that were "only oral sex" or "sex without love" or "love without sex"? 

Partners who were too accepting of an earlier infidelity can mislead their spouses into thinking it's no big deal to be discovered. One unfaithful husband told me that his affair had been worth it. It had taken him only two weeks to pay for something that had felt good for six months.

Not every couple takes the time or has the guidance and support to work through betrayals that have occurred before. Although you might prefer to move ahead without dredging up all that old, miserable stuff, past affairs that are not dealt with will continue to contaminate your relationship.

*10. Did you have unprotected sex?*

Sad to say, this is one of those questions that you must ask. Ignoring the risk of disease or pregnancy is a thoughtless act. Some unfaithful partners give an adolescent rationale: "We were swept away by love and didn't want it to look like it was preplanned." Although relying on birth control pills or diaphragms may protect from unwanted pregnancies, those methods still expose the participants to sexually transmitted diseases. Few people regard their affair partners as a possible source of infection, so they don't take the necessary precautions to have safe sex.

Unprotected sex is a painful reminder of how inconsiderate and reckless the unfaithful partner may have been during the affair. Regardless of protestations, both spouses should be tested for AIDS and other sexually transmitted diseases. Willingness to submit to these humbling medical exams and tests is an act of consideration and accountability by the involved partner that will remove another obstacle to resuming safe marital sex.


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## Ovid (Oct 11, 2012)

Some need to know everything, some don't. I had to know everything before i was willing to R. You need a new counselor. Your wife is trying to rug sweep. She should be giving you full transparency.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

The MC will make your "marriage" much worse if you continue. The whole looking forward crap is just that...crap. It's crap because they don't know how to really WORK with infidelity. They're in over their f'ng head and the only "advice" and "guidance" they can give is - look forward.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and tell you that your gut is 100% correct. It went physical. If you don't listen to your gut who ARE ya gonna listen to? Her? 

As Ovid just said, she needs to be fully transparent with you on EVERYTHING. Phone records, emails, if it's got a password then you get access to it. Keylog the computer if you have to, but how in the world can you continue a marriage that has a dark cloud hanging over it, and your wife is totally ignoring what your needs are?

Poly? Don't waste your time or money. The only thing a poly will do is get someone who actually HAS regret/remorse to tell you everything in the parking lot of the poly appointment. 

You need to look up the 180 in the newb thread and begin. Your wife will continue her cycle of disrespect for one reason - cuz you're letting her.

Stop it.


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

Reading on this forum will show you the drill....First you need to do a 180....Begin to distance yourself from her so you will have the mental toughness necessary to follow through...Then

1 Complete total transparency all passwords, phone records, email accounts, everything....NO OPTION

2 No contact letter to AP..

3 No trickle truth, no lies, full disclosure...

4 Exposure...Expose him to his wife, job, family, friends...
expose her to her family, your family, her friends...

5 If you feel she is still lying, polygraph...

6 File for divorce....It will show her you means business...You can cancel it later or go through with it, it is your option...

7 If you plan to R demand she go's to IC...MC when you are sure she has cut off contact with the AP...

Through no fault of your own you face a rough road whatever you decide,...

good luck
the woodchuck


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

I wouldn't need all details before I'd forgive. Forgiveness is a gift I give to myself. It gives me permission to let go of ugly feelings I don't need. I would need some details to make an intelligent decision whether I should continue a relationship with someone. Knowing what happened (in general) would be necessary. Knowing why it happened would be more important and knowing what they were going to do to prevent it from happening again would be important. Knowing how I could verify that my partner was now 100% committed to making the marriage work would be important. I might forgive someone and kick them down the road at the same time. I wouldn't kick them out because I hated them or held a grudge, but because it would be the most logical course of action.


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## Brokenshadow (May 3, 2013)

I was in the exact same position as you were when I joined TAM. In fact, my thread is titled "EA, at least, but my anxiety won't let go". I'll tell you, you are not going to be able to let your suspicion go. It will be there, knocking around your mind, until you get some amount of closure. The bad news is that your wife is highly unlikely to come clean to you on her own. I gave my WW multiple opportunities, asked just for the truth, was calm and measured,.and she spat out only lies. It wasn't until I had irrefutable evidence that she came clean. You're in for a rough road, man. Stay strong.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

BaT said:


> Hi All
> 
> So my wife wants forgiveness for what she claims is an EA, but I can't accept that it didn't go physical. Too many clues suggesting otherwise.
> 
> ...


For starters, get the two books linked to in my signature below.

As you will see in NOT JUST FRIENDS, your counselor is worse than useless. As a matter of fact one study a few years ago found that most counselors had no better record than people with out counselors in saving marriages.

Also, check out HIS NEEDS HER NEEDS, and THE FIVE LOVE LANGUAGES


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

I see that you are also not even certain if the affair has actually stopped. Which is very very bad.

Lets say it has stopped, she isn't giving you anyway to detect if it starts up again.

Do you know-

1. Who the OM is?
2. Is he married?
3. How they met originally
4. How long it went on
5. Did they meet up in person?


I think she is refusing to come clean because she fears:

1. You won't stay if you know the full truth
2. She doesn't want to be disloyal to the OM
3. She fears there will e consequences to the OM from you if you knew the full truth
4. She wants to keep her secret channels and privacy intact in case she wants to contact him again,


In a good marriage the only privacy is the closed bathroom door.

Find a counselor that isn't about rugsweeping.

As for the current one, I'd inform them that you can only forgive what you know, AND you can't forgive someone who isn't being open and transparent with you because you can't trust them.


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## BaT (Jun 16, 2013)

I think the marriage is done.

I keep going back and forth but end up in the same place where too much doesn't stack up and her reluctance to be open as good as confirms her guilt.

I am currently thinking about outing their relationship to other people. 

What would I gain from this?
Which innocent people would I hurt by doing this, i.e. step child. 

Do people actually feel better for outing affairs days, weeks, months, years after?


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

BaT said:


> I am currently thinking about outing their relationship to other people.


Outing what?
Snoop, full force. Hire a professional if you need, be sure you don't break the law but get your evidence on your own.
Even if she's not currently cheating she might have a confidant and having a clue in their comunications can give you the needed info, not necesarily to make a decision but to get out with a clear conscience.
Keylogger, phone spyware, VAR in the right spot... the whole nine yards.


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## Jasel (Jan 8, 2013)

BaT said:


> I am currently thinking about outing their relationship to other people.
> 
> What would I gain from this?
> Which innocent people would I hurt by doing this, i.e. step child.
> ...


Exposing IMO is usually done to end an affair to save the marriage. If the affair is over I wouldn't even bother unless you want to expose to the OM wife/girlfriend if there is one. Although I imagine it might possibly make you feel better.

But you shouldn't even think about exposing unless you have concrete proof you can provide. Otherwise it's going to turn into a he said, she said deal and cheaters deserve Academy Awards for lying, blameshifting, and gas lighting. If you make an accusation like that you can't back up, there's a good chance people who are close to you and her won't believe you.


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## workindad (May 7, 2011)

Op yes I would need to know everything but that is me and everyone is different. If you need to know then... She needs to tell you. It really is that simple. 

Your counselor sucks do not waste another dollar on that one. You have a need to resolve past issues not sweep them under the rug. 

Your wife's behavior tells me she is still active with her om. Most likely it was and is physical. 

I suggest using a var if you want more information. Your wife is not likely to be truthful. Cheaters lie. Lying goes with the lifestyle choice that cheaters make. 

If you want a shot at R, then out the affair now. Do not wait another minute. Any fallout is theirs not yours. Exposure is a fantasy killer. Their special secret is ruined. 

Filing may also snap her out of it. 

Good luck 

Whatever course of action you choose do so now. Inaction only enables affairs. 

WD
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

BaT said:


> I think the marriage is done.
> 
> I keep going back and forth but end up in the same place where too much doesn't stack up and her reluctance to be open as good as confirms her guilt.
> 
> ...


1) No matter what you do it will not affect the divorce settlement. In England and Wales (not sure about Scotland) it is strictly no fault Who sues whom for what is irrelevant - even when it comes to the children etc. the divorce petition is disregarded.

2) You need to:

- stop the affair that is clearly continuing
- give your wife immediate consequences for this (divorce, do the "180")
- if you know who the OM is (I guessed when I thought my wife was just in an EA and went to his house), then confront him
- expose, expose, expose. The partner of the other party could be an ally. It helps prevent the affair continuing and could stop it too.
- See a lawyer by all means, but this will only help you if you are going to file. 

3) This is your wife's fault and her responsibility. Your actions are a direct result of her actions. Don't be guilted into stopping. 

4) As others have suggested - dump your counsellor. Do not see them again. Whilst you're at it, if they are part of any organisation, then report them for being unprofessional. I know Relate are generally terrible (heard plenty of feedback from others and they were worse than useless for us).


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Destroying the affair, even if your are going with D is important as a tactic as it removes the OM as a support system for your wife. It puts her in the position of dealing with the fallout , while you focus on the D.

A weak opponent is better in a negotiation and an opponent who feels confident and that they have options.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

Expose and file.

Tell her the only way you are going to put the process on hold and try reconciliation is if she comes completely clean so you know the extent of the issues you face and becomes totally transparent so you can verify it is not continuing.

And fire your rugsweeping MC.


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## 2yearsago (Jun 28, 2013)

Destroying the affair, even if your are going with D is important as a tactic as it removes the OM as a support system for your wife. It puts her in the position of dealing with the fallout , while you focus on the D.

A weak opponent is better in a negotiation and an opponent who feels confident and that they have options.

Hey shaggy - this is great advice.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PamJ (Mar 22, 2013)

First, yes, you have to know everything to know what you are forgiving her for.

<<Her reason for not giving up on the phone records is that she feels what's done is done and we should move forward like the counsellor suggested. I refuse.>.

And wouldn't they ALL like us to just deal with it, what's done is done, nothing to see here folks, just move along. Just forget it ever happened But, of course, you can't DO that, and they know that. She probably knows your reaction to finding out it was a PA and she is hedging against that by not telling all, holding out as long as she can. It's what they do until they are cornered.

And WHY didn't you have access to phone records anyway? We have 5 phones with Verizon, I was able to make myself administrator for the account online and have always had access, I just didn't know I needed to be checking up on him until recently.

We only went to two counseling sessions the last time. The first one she did get the background of why we were there she did give my WH a bit of a hard time as she said it looked like I was willing to take more responsibility for the state of our marriage than he. She might have also been able to sense that he hadn't really ended his A, which I didn't know at the time.

She gave us an assignment to think about how we saw ourselves in five years with the marriage etc., typical counseling plan I think. We went back the 2nd time, but that was it. My WH felt 'blamed' and then claimed it was too hard to schedule these sessions, which it was, but I thought worth it. he did not. I was lost or I would have taken more action had I had more support as you can get from this forum


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## harrybrown (May 22, 2013)

I think you should expose the affair. If she can't come clean, go with the divorce, maybe that will wake her up.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

BaT said:


> I think the marriage is done.
> 
> I keep going back and forth but end up in the same place where too much doesn't stack up and her reluctance to be open as good as confirms her guilt.
> 
> ...


People have a right to know when their spouses, SO's, mothers, fathers... are being unfaithful. 

Also, it's you showing you know you're being lied to and you are not stupid. You are not a door mat to be wiped on. You are a person who deserves the truth. And if it isn't going to be told, then it's over.


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## distraughtfromtexas (Apr 25, 2013)

You are not unreasonable in your thinking. Your WW is hiding something and your counselor sounds worthless. My thoughts are with you.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

My theory is that women who cheat on their husbands have a low romantic in and are not "in love" with their husbands. Additionally, once the romantic interest is gone, it can never be restored.
Anyone would be hard pressed to show me a gal who in crazy in love with their husband that also cheats on her husband. 
I have been with more married women than you have fingers and toes and I've never seen but one, who jointly arranged with her husband a twice a month thing, who was still in love with him. Most were wanting a painless way out.


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

ThePheonix said:


> My theory is that women who cheat on their husbands have a low romantic in and are not "in love" with their husbands. Additionally, once the romantic interest is gone, it can never be restored.
> Anyone would be hard pressed to show me a gal who in crazy in love with their husband that also cheats on her husband.
> I have been with more married women than you have fingers and toes and I've never seen but one, who jointly arranged with her husband a twice a month thing, who was still in love with him. Most were wanting a painless way out.


If you could let the board know what the heck you are on about and how it relates to the original question, that would be appreciated.


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## ScorchedEarth (Mar 5, 2013)

BaT said:


> Hi All
> 
> *So my wife wants forgiveness for what she claims is an EA, but I can't accept that it didn't go physical. Too many clues suggesting otherwise.*
> 
> ...


Your wife sounds like my stbx/wh. Adamant that it never went PA. Does not admit to anything without concrete proof (heck, I even got crazy stories WITH concrete proof!)

The best advice I can give is assume the worst, expect the least.

If you can live with that, proceed with R. If you cannot... time to file. 

Sorry to have to welcome you to the club.

PS - Your counselor sucks, and probably wants you to "move on" because reconciliation usually requires therapy... costly therapy.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

Chris989 said:


> If you could let the board know what the heck you are on about and how it relates to the original question, that would be appreciated.


It goes to the need for men to know all the details. What they really want to know is why, details notwithstanding. They want to know why their women choose to see someone else while they supposedly put so much of the sweat and blood into a marriage, being a good husband, etc. Wanting the details is an illusive quest to determine what they may not have provided. I am simply answering that question based on my experience. That is their wife's romantic interest in them declined. There are many reasons why romantic interest drops. Nevertheless, the wife will usually say something to the effect of, "you weren't paying me enough attention" which really means, "since what I'm getting from you no longer excites me, I looked elsewhere."
I realize my view may be somewhat controversial, and my history certainly is, but what I'm posting is my honest opinion based on the path I took and experiences I've had. There are some men who demand to be first and require absolute loyalty. There are other who will settle for less. I'm giving one opinion on what I believe are the facts. My opinion is no better than anyone elses. The reader will have to be the judge.


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## Flygirl (Apr 9, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> No. I did not want *any* details. The fact that she cheated on me was all I wanted to know.
> 
> We did reconcile.


Really?? How come? I wish I could be like that. I need details or I'm left to assume what happened and that never turns out well.


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## Betrayedred (Jun 16, 2013)

Fly girl, sometimes you can get over your imagination. But when you KNOW the details---when you have seen the text messages, when you have heard the longing in your WS voice as they disclose, when you have gotten all the physical details---you can't un-know them. And that can be very traumatic. Plus, how are you going to trust that they have really given all the details? You can't, and that would bother me, a lot!


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

I wanted to know just abut everything. Others don't. I think it all depends on what the BS needs to heal.

The counselor - some counselors are trained in the let's not look at the past and let's look at the future school of thought. I think it is misguided. My wife had one last year like this and additionally my wife was lying to her on just about everything. Find another one who understands A's. They should understand what a WS is thinking and what a BS thinks.

I think you need to know as much as you need to know in order to forgive. For me I needed to know a lot.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

I am in the "I need to know everything" camp. I don't think that one "cookie cutter" fits all solution exists and abhor the counselors that prescribe to that school of thought. Everyone is different and I believe that the answer tome each individual should be "you know yourself and how much you need to know to get over something and obtain closure", and no one can tell you otherwise. Assess yourself and see what you feel you need to be able to bring closure to a situation and move on from it. I am very detail oriented and methodical, so for me it is a need to know everything situation (for me the mind movies I can construct can be quite terrible).


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## GROUNDPOUNDER (Mar 8, 2013)

If you continue in a marriage with the knowledge that you do not know everything that had happened in/during the affair - You are living a lie by omission.

You may be able to lie to yourself for a while, but eventually not knowing the truth takes its toll. Not to mention what the truth is going to do to you if it finds you in another 2, 5, or 10 years from now...


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

Betrayedred said:


> Plus, how are you going to trust that they have really given all the details? You can't, and that would bother me, a lot!


Exactly. It would be impossible to know they disclosed everything. Moreover, most people cannot even tell the same story twice. Description of the actual events will change depending on the passage of time and the state of mind a person when they tell the story. There's a big difference, for example, in how a person describes the purchase of their new car the following day as compared to the following year.


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## Flygirl (Apr 9, 2013)

Betrayedred said:


> Fly girl, sometimes you can get over your imagination. But when you KNOW the details---when you have seen the text messages, when you have heard the longing in your WS voice as they disclose, when you have gotten all the physical details---you can't un-know them. And that can be very traumatic. Plus, how are you going to trust that they have really given all the details? You can't, and that would bother me, a lot!


It is driving me crazy. He's lied so many times now that I can't believe anything he says. He always gets caught and each time I get a little more of the truth. And each time he swears I know everything. I swear it's like he likes to watch me suffer or something. The worst are the lies of omission. That's so sneaky!!! I have discovered a part of husband that I never knew existed. He'd rather hurt me in order to protect himself from the consequences of his own actions. I can forgive him for the EA. It's all the lies that he has told trying to hide it and deny it that hurts me the most.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

ThePheonix said:


> Exactly. It would be impossible to know they disclosed everything. Moreover, most people cannot even tell the same story twice. Description of the actual events will change depending on the passage of time and the state of mind a person when they tell the story. There's a big difference, for example, in how a person describes the purchase of their new car the following day as compared to the following year.


Not a very good analogy. Even though the emotions tied to the purchase may be described differently in the retells a day versus a year later, the facts won't change unless something illegal has taken place and the purchaser chooses to lie to cover that part up. The facts will remain the same, where the car was bought, how much was paid, how many miles were on it at the time of purchase, was it financed, how many times was it test driven before purchase, etc. These type of facts are never the same when the cheater reveals them to the betrayed spouse, let alone the emotions involved. 

I have email and text proof of the exchanges that took place, yet the WS still denies that those types of interactions ever took place. Says it was just words and meant nothing. If it meant nothing, then why say it? It was never said to me in all 14 years of marriage, so why now go that way. Not to mention the pic exchanges that I have verifiable proof of that are still claimed to have never taken place? 

These are the types of lies that we are referring to, the verifiable facts.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rugs (Apr 12, 2013)

Let's say I saw a flirty text message from my husband to a co-worker and I confronted and it was "dealt with", it would be easier to move on.

But what if what was really going on was my husband was having multiple affairs, spreading diseases, spending our money, screwing up at work by flirting with co-workers......then this would tell me to get legal council and file for divorce to protect myself.

I think it depends on what your boundaries are.

As sick as I was to find out everything, YEARS AND YEARS OF EVERYTHING, I now know I married a true sociopath who could care less whether I was dead or alive than just a guy who made a questionable decision. 

As painful as it is, it is important to know what and who you are dealing with in order to make informed decisions.


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## Twang (Mar 22, 2013)

I now know all the details and I wished I didn't it haunts me. When Hubby finally stopped the trickle down truth and everything was in the open I wish I had just let it be. Each person is different but just be sure you are ready for what you ask for. Hope this helps and Good Luck.


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

Flygirl said:


> It is driving me crazy. He's lied so many times now that I can't believe anything he says. He always gets caught and each time I get a little more of the truth. And each time he swears I know everything. I swear it's like he likes to watch me suffer or something. The worst are the lies of omission. That's so sneaky!!! I have discovered a part of husband that I never knew existed. He'd rather hurt me in order to protect himself from the consequences of his own actions. I can forgive him for the EA. It's all the lies that he has told trying to hide it and deny it that hurts me the most.


This behaviour is very common; I ended up divorcing my wife because of her continued lies as it ultimately shows a lack of respect.

In her defence, she simply can't bring herself to tell me some things; she does feel deeply ashamed and is so worried that I will leave at each revelation that she ended up only admitting to what I had figured out in any case.

Your situation sounds very like this. I didn't ever come up with an answer and it's only because I have a good memory and she is rubbish at being consistent that I think I know pretty much everything. Without me being able to fill in the gaps I think we would have separated for certain (might still yet, but sticking with it for all sorts of reasons for now).

If it helps - and probably not - I know my ex has some odd traits, such as being unable to make some phone calls as it gets her too worked up. Our eldest daughter is the same. No idea why, but it seems a part of the character that is unable to face up to some situations...


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

Obviously, this MC does not specialize in infidelity. No one that does, would tell the BS to "put things behind them". Any of them that are worth squat know that the BS has to be able to have open and truthful discussion with the CS in order to heal - assuming R is on the table. How much information is up to the BS, not the CS. Fire the MC yesterday and find one that specializes in infidelity if you can. If you can't, just don't go.

Even if your wife didn't have a PA, and that's highly unlikely, the fact that she won't share her phone records indicates three things:

1) She is not remorseful for what she did. If she was she'd be jumping through hoops for you.

2) She wants to rug sweep her A to avoid consequences.

3) Possibly - the A is still continuing.


If it were me, and R was still an option, I'd give her an ultimatum. Either you share all your phone records and passwords with me or I'm filing for divorce. 

But even is she does, understand that she's probably already deleted anything incriminating. You might be able to get the phone numbers and times, but very unlikely will you be able to get actual texts - unless you are lucky and tech savvy enough to recover them. (My wife wiped her phone, but I got her e-mails.) But at the least, you should be able to tell if she deleted them by comparing to phone records.

Then, you're still without the full truth and she still won't confess. So the last step is a polygraph. Again, if it were me, I wouldn't hesitate to use it; and I wouldn't hesitate to divorce her if she refused.

Your wife needs a wake up call. I hope you give her one.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Chaparral said:


> For starters, get the two books linked to in my signature below.
> 
> As you will see in NOT JUST FRIENDS, your counselor is worse than useless. *As a matter of fact one study a few years ago found that most counselors had no better record than people with out counselors in saving marriages.*
> 
> Also, check out HIS NEEDS HER NEEDS, and THE FIVE LOVE LANGUAGES


I would imagine that those counsellors explain that statistic away by claiming that they only help couples to decide whether to stay together or to split up. Win / win for the counsellors.

I wanted to know everything possible as well. My fiance begged me to stay with him and encouraged me to look through everything possible. It was important for me to know how he treated her compared to me, I certainly got that changed. I'm pretty sure that if I didn't know these things, there might have been the feeling that he got away with something. Very hard to maintain respect going forward then. And you would not even be aware of it. 

I also needed to know about her personality and how he allowed her to treat him. 

It became important due to the way he stored information. For example, he called me creepy for doing an internet search on her with her e-mail address. Fortunately, I was able to point out that it was even creepier for someone to ask about my sex life when she didn't even know me; I never made that information public the way she did about herself across social media. It's funny how self righteous people can be in these situations.

As for your counselor, I can't understand how she can say it's necessary to look forward and to forget about the past, when what you're trying to do is manage the present by verifying whether your wife is in touch with her AP.

It sounds to me that this marriage is not for saving. I got divorced in the UK in 2001. I enjoyed very much naming the mistress in the affair. She had to sign it before anything could move forward. And yes, my exH did leave under a bus so to speak.

I say that you get better advice here. Save your money or spend it on a really lawyer.


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

I found that I needed to know certain details in stages; if she told me anything more than that particular piece it crushed me. As such, I didn't let her just ramble on about what happened.

Two of the things that have not stopped causing real pain are things I didn't ask about, but she "volunteered".

I have come to the conclusion that the whole process needs to be controlled very carefully by the betrayed - if nothing else there is a real danger for the wayward to be mischievous or malevolent in their descriptions otherwise.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Some people do not need to know. It seems to me that those are people who do not want to know. That is a valid approach. My therapist occassionally reminds me of one of her clients who upon hearing in a session a bit more than she wanted about her husband's screwing around said with a bit of distaste "That's his business. I wish he would have just kept it to himself." That is the marriage some people want. He kept her checking account in balance and didn't bother her for sex and that was all she asked. If you did not want to know, you would not be here. And if you want to know, you need to know. Otherwise it will eat you up. And it may anyway.

Oh, and do not write another check to that therapist.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

Flygirl said:


> It is driving me crazy. He's lied so many times now that I can't believe anything he says. He always gets caught and each time I get a little more of the truth. And each time he swears I know everything. I swear it's like he likes to watch me suffer or something. The worst are the lies of omission. That's so sneaky!!! I have discovered a part of husband that I never knew existed. He'd rather hurt me in order to protect himself from the consequences of his own actions. I can forgive him for the EA. It's all the lies that he has told trying to hide it and deny it that hurts me the most.


This sounds like I wrote it...word for word! Except the bit about EA...mine was PA. Yours could well be too, hence the magnificent lies.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> No. I did not want *any* details. The fact that she cheated on me was all I wanted to know.
> 
> We did reconcile.





Flygirl said:


> Really?? How come? I wish I could be like that. I need details or I'm left to assume what happened and that never turns out well.


Correct me if I am wrong, but I think Matt was given honesty from the get go. She said she was going to have an affair, she did, it stopped. There was nothing else to find out...unless you want the gory details.

I think it is almost universal that people want to know the what and why and if it had ended, 
most people want to know the extent of the affair - how many times, how often, when, what kind of sex i.e. was it more adventurous 
But not so many want the gory details. Like an above poster said, it hurt when her WH gave details of what she had NOT asked, giving the detailed pleasure of their interactions. That was not her husband helping her as a betrayed. That was a cruel and nasty trick played by the husband. That poster needs to think about why he did that and what kind of a person not only cheats but then kicks her face in and pulls her fingernails out with the information he gives. That is not someone to R with. 

And as Chris said, the betrayed needs to be in control of the details.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

BaT said:


> Hi All
> 
> So my wife wants forgiveness for what she claims is an EA, but I can't accept that it didn't go physical. Too many clues suggesting otherwise.
> 
> ...


As soon as I read this post I had to look to see if you were British from the description you gave of the counsellor. I had a similar experience. And I agree with Chris, Relate are not that great. Their website suggests the right things, but the actions in session were not dealing with the issues of the afait, the lies, the gaslighting. More to do with moving on. 

I did a lot of questioning of a lot of counsellors before meeting them, and not one filled me with any confidence of tackling the real issues. All seemed to follow the same textbook management. 

Change counsellor. And yes, she most likely had PA. And no, if she doesn't give you details, don't keep going with any kind of R because it is all a false one.


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## PamJ (Mar 22, 2013)

I agree the BS needs to control what details they get. My H says he will tell me anything I want to know but is hesitant about offering them on his own, not knowing what I want to hear. His details are not as 'gory' as some, as it was an online/phone affair, but still lots of sexting and such.

I told him I will let him know, he can offer something if he thinks it is significant, but he knows if he offers too much on his own I might think he is pining for her. It's a tough place for him I guess, but one that was totally avoidable.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

PamJ said:


> I agree the BS needs to control what details they get. My H says he will tell me anything I want to know but is hesitant about offering them on his own, not knowing what I want to hear. His details are not as 'gory' as some, as it was an online/phone affair, but still lots of sexting and such.
> 
> I told him I will let him know, he can offer something if he thinks it is significant, but he knows if he offers too much on his own I might think he is pining for her. It's a tough place for him I guess, but one that was totally avoidable.


In my view, if you want to know, you have to go straight at it. On a few occassions and after months of vehement denials and frighteningly aggressive counterattacks, my wife came to the place of saying "OK, what do you want to know?" This after a tour de force of denial, blamshifting, redirection, and outright coming straight at me. That is the nature of the beast. It was bit disarming and I was at a loss. So I said basically "I do not know what I do not know, so tell me the worst."


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## Flygirl (Apr 9, 2013)

Chris989 said:


> This behaviour is very common; I ended up divorcing my wife because of her continued lies as it ultimately shows a lack of respect.
> 
> In her defence, she simply can't bring herself to tell me some things; she does feel deeply ashamed and is so worried that I will leave at each revelation that she ended up only admitting to what I had figured out in any case.
> 
> ...


That's exactly how my husband is...He admits to what I already know. He has trouble identifying his emotions and avoids things that make him uncomfortable.


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## Flygirl (Apr 9, 2013)

My husband seems to develop amnesia when I start asking for details. I just found out a few weeks ago and his EA was 6 months ago. He acts like it was 6 years ago and can't remember. I don't buy it. Seems like breaking your marriage vows and Betraying your wife would be one of those moments that stick in your head. Kind of like you know exactly where you were and how you felt on September 11th.


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

I would absolutely need to know everything in order to make the best possible decision for me


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## 6301 (May 11, 2013)

If it was me, I would want to know if it was either an EA or worse, she slept with him. If she slept with the guy, it wouldn't matter to me how many times or positions. The fact of the matter is she was unfaithful and that's the bottom line. 

If she's giving you that much trouble handing over the phone records then there is more to the story and she either comes clean or one of us is leaving and being the gentleman that you are...........Ladies first. Tell her when she wants to tell you everything then you'll meet somewhere and she can tell you what you need and deserve to know and then you can make your mind up if you want her to come back, but friend, if she won't budge on the records, I would assume that it wasn't just an EA. Your the one who has to live with her. Is she worth keeping?


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

I think the fear is that once you know the full truth, you will no longer want to be with them.

But isn't it better to know the truth, and if it means that you no longer want to be them because of what they really did do, that you honestly should be leaving them?

I don't think I said that fully clearly.

What I mean is if you don't know the full truth, and you stay, but the full truth would have you leave them - aren't you condemning yourself to live in a lie?


If your SO did a horrible thing, say rob a bank and get away with a bunch of money, would you want to know? 

What if they were in the mob?


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## Brokenshadow (May 3, 2013)

Flygirl said:


> That's exactly how my husband is...He admits to what I already know. He has trouble identifying his emotions and avoids things that make him uncomfortable.


Count me as the third member of this group. Everything she has admitted to, with few exceptions, was information I already knew. There was a few weeks between finding out admit the EA then uncovering it was a PA. How can I trust her to be honest about anything now? Frankly, if she provides new information that isn't painful, I question it's authenticity. It's not fair to her, as she seems to be trying hard to reconcile, but after all her lies, what else can I do?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

Brokenshadow said:


> Count me as the third member of this group. Everything she has admitted to, with few exceptions, was information I already knew. There was a few weeks between finding out admit the EA then uncovering it was a PA. How can I trust her to be honest about anything now? Frankly, if she provides new information that isn't painful, I question it's authenticity. It's not fair to her, as she seems to be trying hard to reconcile, but after all her lies, what else can I do?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Number four - standing right here. Great group to be a member of huh? A swell sub group of the betrayed...


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## ScorchedEarth (Mar 5, 2013)

^^^^ Um, is there room for one more?


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## GROUNDPOUNDER (Mar 8, 2013)

BaT said:


> I think the marriage is done.
> 
> I keep going back and forth but end up in the same place where too much doesn't stack up and her reluctance to be open as good as confirms her guilt.
> 
> ...


Well, the OP hasn't logged in here in 3 days and the above was his last post.

I have to assume that he told his WS what he needed for her to stay married to him. She balked and he walked.

If I'm wrong BaT. please let me know.

If I'm right, than I think you're doing the right thing. Even if she hasn't had an EA, or PA yet - The fact that she won't take the transparency steps to assure you that nothing has happened, or will happen is a HUGE red flag.

It seems to me that she's leaving here self open for an EA/PA.

She can't cheat on you if she's not your wife anymore.


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## Brokenshadow (May 3, 2013)

ScorchedEarth said:


> ^^^^ Um, is there room for one more?


Might be, let me Check the roster. I have my group for betrayed spouses of addicts on Tuesday.... ;-)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Flygirl (Apr 9, 2013)

Shaggy said:


> I think the fear is that once you know the full truth, you will no longer want to be with them.
> 
> But isn't it better to know the truth, and if it means that you no longer want to be them because of what they really did do, that you honestly should be leaving them?
> 
> ...


This was my husband's excuse for lying. He said he knew what he did was a deal breaker to me and he says all the lies up until this point were to prevent me from finding out about the original betrayal. If he knew it was a deal breaker, why did he do it???? The only reason I can think of is that at the time She was worth the risk of losing his family. Then he went as far as calling her and asking her to lie to me and back up his lies. He said he did this because he wanted to save his marriage. Common sense tells you that you don't fix a marriage with lies. His words never match his behavior. She did exactly what he wanted and lied to me but I figured out the truth a few days later and called her on it. She said she's not going to cover for him anymore and confirmed what I had suspected and then told me about another time that they went out that I no idea about. I'm really struggling with jealousy right now. I keep comparing myself to her. I'm making myself sick.


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## jupiter13 (Jun 8, 2012)

Yeah my Wh doesn't think I need to know everything either it will upset me. He says it was never emotional only sex. Do I believe him? Sort of, I can except that but still. I have more questions and when I don't get answers I tend to think the worst or that I am not important enough to answer but she was always important enough to Fjkiureoiwk.


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## BaT (Jun 16, 2013)

Firstly I would like to thank everyone for their contribution to this thread, you really have helped. This place is like free counselling!

For the sake of bringing closure to this thread I thought I would update you. I have dumped her.

I am in the process of drawing in deep breaths and gathering myself to get ready for the unknown single life that lies ahead.

I will not let this break me and I will find another (in time) who deserves my love, honesty and commitment.

To all those that have been cheated on. I truly wish you all the luck and strength in the world to get over this. 

Please don't let what you are going through beat you or make you feel not good enough. There is a big old world out there and someone who deserves your love is there for you when you're ready to look. Like me you may not be interested for some time, but please just accept that as the truth.



Thanks again everyone. I'll stick around so see you all soon.


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

Thanks for the update BaT.

Be strong and good luck.

Stay frosty


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## Angelvamp64 (Dec 10, 2012)

I am so, so sorry I was one of the people that thought she needed every single sex detail. I just knew he was lying to me when I would ask him had he done certain things with the hookers, positions, etc. It took so much to get him to admit these because he knew it would make what he did look worse, it would hurt me and yes, he felt shame over what he did with them (which he should) :gag:, I see now that all I really needed to know was two things, how many hookers and has it only been hookers he cheated with. The details of what he did, knowing 3 of the ones he was with and what they look like is my biggest struggle and I can never un-know it now. My worst fears about what he did were true so if someone can live without knowing the sex details, I envy them because my life may not be so hard right now if I hadn't felt the need to know every little thing.


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## nogutsnoglory (Jan 17, 2013)

Angelvamp64 said:


> I am so, so sorry I was one of the people that thought she needed every single sex detail. I just knew he was lying to me when I would ask him had he done certain things with the hookers, positions, etc. It took so much to get him to admit these because he knew it would make what he did look worse, it would hurt me and yes, he felt shame over what he did with them (which he should) :gag:, I see now that all I really needed to know was two things, how many hookers and has it only been hookers he cheated with. The details of what he did, knowing 3 of the ones he was with and what they look like is my biggest struggle and I can never un-know it now. My worst fears about what he did were true so if someone can live without knowing the sex details, I envy them because my life may not be so hard right now if I hadn't felt the need to know every little thing.


I think most on here would agree that not knowing would have eaten you alive. Knowing gives you a chance at moving on, not a guarantee. There are certain things that can't be forgiven in each of our minds.


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

Well done for taking the tough decision - the lack of disclosure said it all and I am sure it would have continued to nag away at you and would have driven you nuts eventually. Good luck and stay well!


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## theexpendable (May 9, 2013)

I think you did the right thing. Mine gave me that same line when I asked for phone records and access to accounts. I just want to move forward and build up my trust. I don't want to rehash blah blah blah. Sure enough a day later I find they are still in contact. Stay strong brother. I'm in that same boat my friend. Let's sail to clearer waters and sunny skies. Good Luck


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