# What is the right play here? (Man up journey)



## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

Some of you know my back story... basically I have begun a journey of growing up and manning up and my marriage is on a path for separation since my wife isn't really coming along for the ride.

The only problem is... she's starting to show signs of change.

I have signed a year lease on an apartment which begins on April 1st already taken out with a deposit. I have begun accepting my marriage is over, and actually am looking forward to a lot of things about being on my own... more time with friends, more time for my activities, and in general moving toward the more laid-back lifestyle (ie things not planned every hour of every day) that I love. Somehow the non-stop activity and work that my wife lives by has really drawn a dark cloud over my life and I am looking forward to getting away from that cloud.

And as stupid as it sounds, I am really looking forward to doing the day to day tasks by myself, like laundry, dishes. I am genuinely curious to see what kinds of systems work best for me. (My wife is somewhat of a control freak and in the past she would insult my methods and then assume control of the task... and hold it over my head when convenient.) I look forward to meeting new people and being in a new environment. I guess in a lot of ways I am ready and excited to start over, but scared of what might come and sad about the loss of my wife.

But... I am noticing little changes in my wife. She has told me twice in the last couple weeks that she missed me. She has started to do some very light introspection into our relationship and into herself - which for her is quite bold. She has spoken a few times as to her understanding that too much work has really done a number on our relationship. And maybe most notably, this morning she said, "Have you really been telling me this all these years and I just never listened?" I do not think it is lip service this time. I think she is actually feeling her impending loss and is seeing all the work I'm doing. She has even commented that she thinks I would be "scooped up" quickly if I left - I take that to mean she is finding her attraction to me once more.

I would prefer to stay married if she is genuinely committed to change and I have a chance at the life I want with her in it, but of course if I back down, there is a very good chance things would slide back to where they were. She seems more self-aware now but I'm not sure how much change there has really been.

Is the right play here to cancel the move-out and try to gently nurture this spark into the fire it needs to be? Or, do I continue with the move-out and give her the time and space to work on herself so that I can better see what she will become? There is a risk in moving out that one of us would meet someone or lose the minimal connection we have with the distance, but if we really worked at it, I would be happy to break the lease if we got ourselves to a better place.

It is funny that as part of this man up journey - whether my marriage survives or not - I am finally living and I love it. It's great and I can't thank you all enough.


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

To me, those changes sound pretty tentative. Seems like it could be easy to digress. If you asked her what changes she would commit to, what would she likely say? Still, if you see any hope in saving the marriage, I'd suggest a frank discussion about saving it. Let her help you decide through her willingness to commit to a real effort.

In my own marriage, the changes were near miraculous. Because I felt that many of our issues were based on underlying problems with my wife's bipolar condition, I had a little hope that she could overcome it. Never knew that she would become serious enough to explore new treatment options with different psychiatrists in another state. She's openly encouraged my discussions with her doctor, along with another consultant. That's been almost two months ago, and an incredibly positive change.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

The key question Acorn.

Are those same improvements possible if you stay?


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## accept (Dec 1, 2011)

I would say go to MC and see what she says there.


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## okeydokie (Sep 10, 2008)

you have til april 1 to see what she does. i wouldnt cancel any plans that you have in place. its a shame it has to get this far before people wake up


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

Conrad said:


> The key question Acorn.
> 
> Are those same improvements possible if you stay?


Hmmm, that's a good question.

The improvements I want to make to my life are not really possible unless either a) I leave, or b) she changes. I suppose it would be possible to essentially ignore her and try very hard to overcome the years of her "conditioning" while she was still around, but that definitely seems hard mode.

Right now, I think she is still primarily motivated by the fact that she senses me pulling away. Her improvements are possible if I stay but it is unlikely she'd be motivated to do so without the separation being on the table.

Talking this out, I see that the time for me to call off the move-out or move back in is when she has proven she's making changes for herself and not just because of the threat of me leaving. Thank you.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

I can relate a bit. I tried getting my wife to change some of her behaviour. It wasn’t a lot but at times she seriously hurt me and I needed that changed. But she never would change, learn new ways of doing things. The last time she hurt me was one time too many so I was out of it. It wasn’t planned out like yours is, my out was very abrupt.


About 6 months into the separation I got an email from my wife saying she could see what I’d been saying. She’d been having some introspection, self examination and had an epiphany moment while reading a self-help book.


But it was nowhere near enough for me. What she needed to do to get back with me was to hammer very hard on my door. I’ve raised the bar pretty high for her, I’ve done that deliberately in order to see if her words have meaning or if they are just words. If she ever does hammer on my door I’d probably open it wide for her but I can’t see it happening.


Meanwhile I’ve worked through all the heavy emotions associated with such a break-up and I’ve come to all my conclusions and judgements about what went wrong and why. Although at times I get sad and I still love my wife I am thoroughly enjoying myself, I’m enjoying being by myself, no longer walking on eggshells and a really big one Is that I’m enjoying no longer “trying”, trying to make it work.





If I were to encourage you either way I would encourage to take that 12 month lease. To make the separation happen. Twelve months in the scheme of things will fly by. My two year separation feels like 2 months it’s gone by so quickly.


At the end of that 12 months you can revisit things with your wife. You can review your feelings but most of all you’ll know exactly how high to set the bar for your wife should she ever wish to get back in your life again. It’s not easy, people changing. They have to be powerfully motivated to change and I don’t reckon your wife is there as yet. Whatever you do, do not make yourself easy for her because for sure she’ll just slip back to her old ways.




Sometimes a man just needs to separate and find himself. I think that’s what you need to do, what’s calling you.


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

Halien said:


> To me, those changes sound pretty tentative. Seems like it could be easy to digress. If you asked her what changes she would commit to, what would she likely say? Still, if you see any hope in saving the marriage, I'd suggest a frank discussion about saving it. Let her help you decide through her willingness to commit to a real effort.


Thanks Halien. The problem is that she has in the past committed to changes that she could not live up to. She really just dropped it and though I forgive her I have not forgotten.

I have talked with her about what life would be like on the other side and asked her if that sounded good to her. She very much was on board but said she lacked the ability/tools to get there herself. I am hoping that she will come to realize that she is the only one that can get her to where she needs to be, but I think she is looking to me to "fix it".


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

AFEH said:


> I can relate a bit. I tried getting my wife to change some of her behaviour. It wasn’t a lot but at times she seriously hurt me and I needed that changed. But she never would change, learn new ways of doing things. The last time she hurt me was one time too many so I was out of it. It wasn’t planned out like yours is, my out was very abrupt.
> 
> 
> About 6 months into the separation I got an email from my wife saying she could see what I’d been saying. She’d been having some introspection, self examination and had an epiphany moment while reading a self-help book.
> ...


Thank you AFEH. I think one of the things I've noticed is that I have done a lot of grieving for my marriage while still in it, and every time I emotionally give her a crack, it's like ripping the band aid off and re-opening all the wounds. A lot of the things I think I could heal pretty easily from if I wasn't re-opening it every day. (I think this is another reason in favor of setting the bar high.)

I also think I have done a lot of that soul searching as to my role and what went wrong and if/when I find my next girlfriend, I will be a much better partner for going through it.


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## Married&Confused (Jan 19, 2011)

i don't know your back story but here's my take.

i don't think people can change much past their 20's. what you see is what you get. she would stay this way until some event is looming, will change temporarily under pressure but eventually will go back to the way she is.

twice in my relationship, after marriage counseling and individual counseling, i have decided to move out. twice, when my wife realized the end was near, she "changed", only to fall back to her old ways.

the last time i decided to leave i was in the same situation as you. i had come to peace with the decision, had my eye on a place to live, was thinking about a new life on my own. now that my wife has "changed" (again), i'm like a rubber band that has been stretched so many times i can no longer snap back and get back into the relationship and wished i had gone forward with the decision. i may still.


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## This is me (May 4, 2011)

That is the hard part Acorn. Been there over and over for a year now. She is done, then she fears losing me, then shows signs, then is done, fears losing me, and over and over.

Each time I think she is finally coming around the corner and out of the fog, then she falls back.

I keep taking the path that I need to see improvement, which I am seeing as of late with her weekend visits. She wanted space, but if we are not spending time and working on it, how will we ever know if we can save it and love again like a healthy married couple should.

I don't think there is any one recipe that works as us ingrediants are all different. You just need to tweak it as you go. IMHO.

I wish you well.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

Acorn,

You have an excellent question. In view of your manning up journey, I would think that your best course of action is the one you are most prepared to be responsible for going into the future and best reflects your vision of future self. 

Looking back on why I stayed, once it was because my wife made an honest attempt to cook and I was impressed by her effort to contribute. Was it the right play? Only time will tell and I can't predict the future.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Acorn,
Women are WAY better at this stuff than we men are - when it comes to managing a misbehaving-underperforming partner. 

This is what they do and it is SMART as hell. They move out and say to their spouse: You may DATE me if you wish. While we date you will prove to me through your consistent actions that you are able to behave in a manner acceptable to me. If you cannot/will not do that, our separation will quickly transition to divorce. If you CAN do that, after a sufficient period of time, when I am confident the changes are REAL and sustainable I will return home. If that is simply too much effort for you - we can part ways amicably. 

And you clearly define WHAT specifically you need to see in order for the recon.....



Acorn said:


> Some of you know my back story... basically I have begun a journey of growing up and manning up and my marriage is on a path for separation since my wife isn't really coming along for the ride.
> 
> The only problem is... she's starting to show signs of change.
> 
> ...


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

Thank you Mem that makes a lot of sense. I will use that.

Couple days ago she did something disrespectful to me and I calmly called her on it. She told me it wasn't a big deal. I told her it was to me, less because of the action itself and more because I have asked her for years not to disrespect me in that manner. I told her it was difficult to believe that she loved me when she behaved like that.

I was told, "I do things here and there so you should know I care. I'm trying to be open with you and you need to understand that there are going to be times when I need to intentionally let you down."

I still don't even understand what that means, other than that I'm keeping my move out date.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Acorn said:


> I was told, "I do things here and there so you should know I care. I'm trying to be open with you and you need to understand that there are going to be times when I need to intentionally let you down."


Intentionally? Wow.


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno (Jan 18, 2011)

From personal experience, I was glad I had my own place.
You can communicate to her your fears for what might happen if you do have your own places, but also your hopes for the future. I think it is too stressful for you to give up what you have gained, before you're comfortable with her process of change and the results of that change. I invited my stbxh to live in my space, and I could see how the life that I had set up and was enjoying, and comfortable with, was compressed and distorted by his participation. In the end, his 'change' which admittedly doesn't seem as sincere as your W's, did not take. He was not in counseling and in fact was completely missing the mark in terms of what I needed in a relationship. So, same relationship, different geography and for me when he ended up regressing (and even worse), I was all set up to step back into my life...it took a couple weeks of catching up but it was all there right where I'd left it. Nobody I knew said I was dumb or whatever for giving him a second chance...now if I had cancelled my plans to have my own place, etc. I think I would have been the first IN MY SITUATION (which might be different, but not too much so, from yours) to say otherwise.

It really is good to have your own space and privacy.
Your W needs to be on her own, and if she does try out new relational skills with other men, not for physical contact but just for dating, maybe she will get a feel for what she has to gain by process of change. I really hated it when my stbxh did the dishes, I like doing the dishes, but it was more 'rational' for him to do them...while he decided I should do something else. I do my best thinking while I'm doing the dishes! I like the intrinsic rewards in doing housework and homemaker. Duh, I mean, look at my user name. I like getting out too, but the thing for me is - home is whereever I am, so anyone who's been thinking about home as a synonum for house, is off the mark on that. ;-)

Anyway, go ahead and set up on your own. It's good to have options.
That would be my advice if you wanted my honest input, based on gut feel and experience.


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno (Jan 18, 2011)

Mavash. said:


> Intentionally? Wow.


Intentionally sounds a little, well, psychologically damaged.
I know a guy from dance who used to say rude things to women, including me, in order to get a reaction or whatever. He's improved...now he leaves suddenly without saying anything - not even goodbye. It IS an improvement. I guess there are people who have some kind of weird need to hurt others in order to experience the impact of hurt, I guess it's a sign that the other person is let down, and disappointed, so a perverse, backward way of getting assurance that they care, because they can't believe it when you tell them you do? So in a way, maybe it's good that she realizes she will do this...

the correct response to that is, how long do you think you will feel the need to ACT on this need to let me down...and what are you doing that will change this in the future, and how would you like me to respond to those acts, so that you can work on your need to have them happen in the first place....

If you can't get a good answer to those questions, then the statement is like a forward excuse, and just because you're told you're going to be hurt, doesn't make it okay when it actually happens!


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

Mavash. said:


> Intentionally? Wow.


Yeah. I know her well enough to know that there was probably a logical reason in her head why that was a good thing to say... I just wish she had the ability to shift her thinking from her intentions to what was actually conveyed.

I heard, "If you stay with me, I will intentionally hurt you." Well, ok then, I will not stay with you.


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

Homemaker_Numero_Uno said:


> You can communicate to her your fears for what might happen if you do have your own places, but also your hopes for the future. I think it is too stressful for you to give up what you have gained, before you're comfortable with her process of change and the results of that change. I invited my stbxh to live in my space, and I could see how the life that I had set up and was enjoying, and comfortable with, was compressed and distorted by his participation.


I love this. Shows you how backward thinking I am - I always say in MC, "I am trying to figure out how I fit in to your life." when in reality this is perfect - I'd be inviting her to fit in mine.


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno (Jan 18, 2011)

Acorn said:


> I love this. Shows you how backward thinking I am - I always say in MC, "I am trying to figure out how I fit in to your life." when in reality this is perfect - I'd be inviting her to fit in mine.


We're probably professional co-dependents.  I'm in recovery. I'll always be aware of my tendencies. I'm much better at catching myself now giving up stuff I shouldn't be giving up. I mean, there are emergency situations where you have to go the distance, but it shouldn't be a chosen lifestyle. Especially when it's proven that it really doesn't improve anything in the relationship. Just feeds a beast.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Acorn said:


> Thank you AFEH. I think one of the things I've noticed is that I have done a lot of grieving for my marriage while still in it, and every time I emotionally give her a crack, it's like ripping the band aid off and re-opening all the wounds. A lot of the things I think I could heal pretty easily from if I wasn't re-opening it every day. (I think this is another reason in favor of setting the bar high.)
> 
> I also think I have done a lot of that soul searching as to my role and what went wrong and if/when I find my next girlfriend, I will be a much better partner for going through it.


It’s why us men put big, impenetrable boundaries around us. So we can heal the old opened wounds without any danger of them ever being reopened again so that we have to go through the process yet again. Getting your own place is like the lion going into the jungle to heal and start growing again. From what I understand of your story I don’t think you will ever regret it.


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