# Three on a match.



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

In the last two weeks or so, Sweetie and I have been having some pretty intense talks about the possibility of us re-uniting. I am adamant about not doing so, while she is attempting to get me to change my mind. It won't happen, but it has brought up some issues that I had thought were already dealt with.
I have often wondered why it is so hard for the BS to forgive, and why it is so hard for the WS to relate, and why it is so hard for BOTH, to reconcile.
Here are my thoughts and beliefs.
Most reconciliations take place fro reasons OTHER than that the WS and BS are "in love". Some of the reasons are kids, comfort, familiarity, and even a form of "love". But that bedazzling, gut churning, irrational desire for each other.....I no longer think so. Those who say that their marriages are "better' post affair, I am very skeptical of. 
The main reason is this. Once the WS invites the AP into the marriage, he/she is there permanently. It is no longer a marriage of two persons, it is a marriage of three. It doesn't matter if the WS renounces the AP, it doesn't matter if the BS accepts the affair, it doesn't matter if the WS likes, hates or is indifferent to the AP. It doesn't even matter if the AP is alive or dead. As long as human memory exists, the AP is now an integral part of the most intimate structure of the marriage. Every decision, post affair, every thought , word , or deed, is made with him/her , in mind. Even the decision to ignore his/her presence.
So, in my humble opinion, reconciliation is not a healthy way to live, for either the WS or BS.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

There are other reasons, but we can tackle them , later.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Sooo... Did you break up w/ your girlfriend? Is your ex still living w/ you?


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

GusPolinski said:


> Sooo... Did you break up w/ your girlfriend? Is your ex still living w/ you?


No and No. I love my GF, I don't love my ex.


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

Were you still in contact with your girlfriend while reconciling with your ex wife.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

soccermom2three said:


> Were you still in contact with your girlfriend while reconciling with your ex wife.


Not intentionally. I saw her at a restaurant, while out with some friends.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Rookie4 said:


> No and No. I love my GF, I don't love my ex.


Well, there you go. Easiest decision ever.

One more question -- have you told HER (your ex) ^that?


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

GusPolinski said:


> Well, there you go. Easiest decision ever.
> 
> One more question -- have you told HER (your ex) ^that?


Numerous times, but she still tries, even though she actually likes my GF.. I feel sad that she cannot seem to get past it.


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

And have you told your GF?


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## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

Rookie4 said:


> ...The main reason is this. Once the WS invites the AP into the marriage, he/she is there permanently.


Agreed.



Rookie4 said:


> ...*Every decision, post affair, every thought, word, or deed, is made with him, in mind.*


Maybe... just a little _Over the Top?_


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

See if the ex and GF are up for polygamy....


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## harrybrown (May 22, 2013)

Is your G/F on the know about your conversations with your ex?

She might not be excited about these discussions.

Hopefully you have been honest with her, and she could remind your ex why she is your ex.

Too much drama with the ex. Go NC.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Pluto2 said:


> And have you told your GF?


Every day. More than twice.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Sweetie is your ex for a reason. 

She's playing nice with the other girl because she has to to stay on your good side. Secretly, she cannot stand your GF. 

My take is Sweetie doesn't want you for you. She wants the security and familiarity of you. She got it in her head to fvck around, blow up her marriage and lost her husband. Well, she's going to have to learn to live with it. That's life. That's consequences. 

Your GF sounds like she's into you for you. Don't fvck it up.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

RWB said:


> Agreed.
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe... just a little _Over the Top?_


Perhaps, if you are talking about every day decisions, like taking out the trash or what to have for dinner. But every IMPORTANT or intimate decision, the AP will have some kind of influence on.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

bandit.45 said:


> See if the ex and GF are up for polygamy....


Good idea, in theory, but in Practice? Not so much.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> Good idea, in theory, but in Practice? Not so much.


You would get laid daily. They would compete to see who's best.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

harrybrown said:


> Is your G/F on the know about your conversations with your ex?
> 
> She might not be excited about these discussions.
> 
> ...


My GF knows everything I say and everything I do with the ex.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

bandit.45 said:


> Sweetie is your ex for a reason.
> 
> She's playing nice with the other girl because she has to to stay on your good side. Secretly, she cannot stand your GF.
> 
> ...


I don't really agree. Sweetie has done A LOT to change herself, but in her heart, she believes we should be together. She has more money than a horse can ****, so it isn't that, and she has dated other men , post divorce.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

bandit.45 said:


> You would get laid daily. They would compete to see who's best.


I won't even begin to compare. Both are spectacular, in different ways. But sex MEANS a lot more with my GF, than it did with my ex.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> I don't really agree. Sweetie has done A LOT to change herself, but in her heart, she believes we should be together. She has more money than a horse can ****, so it isn't that, and she has dated other men , post divorce.


Sounds like a man talking himself into something.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

The first part is the easiest to answer. Why can't the BS forgive. Well some things just aren't forgivable. An affair is one of them. I get concerned when I hear people preach you should forgive and let go. ****** that! I was wronged and never got an apology so nothing to forgive. What I have done is moved on and forward cause really what other choice do I have.

For me the sexual act of cheating hurt far less than the lies, manipulation, and dangerous position she put my children in. Those are the parts that are unforgivable. 

I too am stumped by reconciliation. On the one hand I believe everyone should make their own choice and if they can reconcile and be happy with it then ok I guess. But the same time I want to shout you deserve better than that. You deserve to find a spouse who won't cheat on you. They are out there!!!! it makes me wonder about the blame shifting and if, In at least some of the reconciliations, the WS does such a good job of blame shifting the affair that the BS buys it and thinks it really was all their fault it happend.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

But, enough about me. I would like to hear from posters who CLAIM to be reconciling, and how they deal with the presence/influence of the AP, in their marriage.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Wolf1974 said:


> The first part is the easiest to answer. Why can't the BS forgive. Well some things just aren't forgivable. An affair is one of them. I get concerned when I hear people preach you should forgive and let go. ****** that! I was wronged and never got an apology so nothing to forgive. What I have done is moved on and forward cause really what other choice do I have.
> 
> For me the sexual act of cheating hurt far less than the lies, manipulation, and dangerous position she put my children in. Those are the parts that are unforgivable.
> 
> I too am stumped by reconciliation. On the one hand I believe everyone should make their own choice and if they can reconcile and be happy with it then ok I guess. But the same time I want to shout you deserve better than that. You deserve to find a spouse who won't cheat on you. They are out there!!!! it makes me wonder about the blame shifting and if, In at least some of the reconciliations, the WS does such a good job of blame shifting the affair that the BS buys it and thinks it really was all their fault it happend.


See, I don't see it as a WS versus BS problem. Because the BS's also have to agree during any reconciliation attempt, don't they? I just feel that even with BOTH sides having the best possible intentions, the AP is always in the room.


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## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

The difference between the ws and bs is experience. How can someone relate to somethingthey have no experience with. At best they can try, but intil it happens to them they have no clue. Just think about it this way. People in third world countryies face starvation problems, and they do die. They watch their loved ones die from it. We can feel sympathy, but we can't relate. 

With cheating, it adds another dimension to the person you see as your partner. That part of them that is capable of hurting you, you do not like. So mentally you want to protect yourself from harm, and you see them as a source of harm. Like touching fire, and finding out it is hot, you don't want to touch it again. Your brain build the connection with that person and harm. But the most fvck thing is your brain also has a connection of love with that person. So there lies the quandry.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Mr.Fisty said:


> The difference between the ws and bs is experience. How can someone relate to somethingthey have no experience with. At best they can try, but intil it happens to them they have no clue. Just think about it this way. People in third world countryies face starvation problems, and they do die. They watch their loved ones die from it. We can feel sympathy, but we can't relate.
> 
> With cheating, it adds another dimension to the person you see as your partner. That part of them that is capable of hurting you, you do not like. So mentally you want to protect yourself from harm, and you see them as a source of harm. Like touching fire, and finding out it is hot, you don't want to touch it again. Your brain build the connection with that person and harm. But the most fvck thing is your brain also has a connection of love with that person. So there lies the quandry.


Sorry, but I don't see this. I mean, we have ALL lied to our SO's. I would be willing to bet on it. And we are ALL seemingly mature enough to know that nobody is perfect and EVERYBODY has issues. It isn't that which bothers me. It's the idea that my ex gave a part of herself to somebody else, and that cannot ever be undone. So a part of her isn't mine anymore.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Rookie4 said:


> See, I don't see it as a WS versus BS problem. Because the BS's also have to agree during any reconciliation attempt, don't they? I just feel that even with BOTH sides having the best possible intentions, the AP is always in the room.


They have to agree but a major difference between agreeing because the WS apologizes, takes the responsibility for it, and the BS thinks the realtionship will get to a mutually satisfing place .......and the being guilted into reconciliation because the WS makes it all the BS fault. You don't have a lot of choice if you are feeling guilty that you caused the problem.

Yeah I can see that anyone would have a problem letting the AP image go. But ultimately if both reconcile then you have to. You can't dwell on that any more than dwell on past sexual partners


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Rookie4 said:


> Sorry, but I don't see this. I mean, we have ALL lied to our SO's. I would be willing to bet on it. And we are ALL seemingly mature enough to know that nobody is perfect and EVERYBODY has issues. It isn't that which bothers me. It's the idea that my ex gave a part of herself to somebody else, and that cannot ever be undone. So a part of her isn't mine anymore.


Interesting you seem way more focused on the act of sex than the lies and betrayal. This is just the complete opposite to me.

Had my x for example had the affair outside my house, and not lied to me about it we would still be divorced yes. But I would not consider her a horrible mother and a rotten person, just not a very good wife. The only thing that really bothers me about her having sex with him is where it took place. The lies and deceit as what have changed me forever.

Interesting viewpoint


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## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> But, enough about me. I would like to hear from posters who *CLAIM to be reconciling*, and how they *deal with the presence/influence of the AP*, in their marriage.


good question.
I am with Wolf about being more pissed about the lies and deceit

How I deal with it, well at first I drank a lot and THAT DIDN"T work

I guess in my case it helps that the AP is scared of me (I won't go in detail why) but he will run the other way when i am around. I do not avoid him he avoids me.

R is hard and one of the reasons is exactly your question


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Wolf1974 said:


> They have to agree but a major difference between agreeing because the WS apologizes, takes the responsibility for it, and the BS thinks the realtionship will get to a mutually satisfing place .......and the being guilted into reconciliation because the WS makes it all the BS fault. You don't have a lot of choice if you are feeling guilty that you caused the problem.
> 
> Yeah I can see that anyone would have a problem letting the AP image go. But ultimately if both reconcile then you have to. You can't dwell on that any more than dwell on past sexual partners


Well, I'm not going to start a WS bashing thread, but I agree that in some cases it happens, that the WS blames the BS and convinces him/her of it. But each situation is different.
What I'm more interested in is HOW do people who are attempting to R, "let go" of the AP's presence.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Wolf1974 said:


> Interesting you seem way more focused on the act of sex than the lies and betrayal. This is just the complete opposite to me.
> 
> Had my x for example had the affair outside my house, and not lied to me about it we would still be divorced yes. But I would not consider her a horrible mother and a rotten person, just not a very good wife. The only thing that really bothers me about her having sex with him is where it took place. The lies and deceit as what have changed me forever.
> 
> Interesting viewpoint


I really don't care where it happened, I care that it happened at all.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

convert said:


> good question.
> I am with Wolf about being more pissed about the lies and deceit
> 
> How I deal with it, well at first I drank a lot and THAT DIDN"T work
> ...


My ex's AP is frightened of me, as well. He even moved to another city, and took out a peace bond against me, to stop me from harming him. But that makes no difference to me. He still had something of mine, that my ex gave him willingly. So, if we reconciled, I would always be faced with that knowledge.


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

My take on reconciliation is it really only works when things begin anew. The WS has to "die" and the new person has to emerge. A person of honor and integrity, someone different than the cheater they were. This is rare and very few can do this, dying to self is extremely difficult. Then, in combination with this change, the BS must also view the old WS as no longer alive and all the memories and feelings have to die with them. They have to "convince" themselves that this really is a new person, I mean really believe it and that too is very difficult. The truth is that it is impossible for most people, I dare say the vast majority, and R does not work.

I really believe it is not a continuation of the same marriage but a death of the old and a starting over. Almost all BSs "start over" but with someone else who may or may not be "better than their XS but they are a different person. R requires this starting over as well and accepting that the WS is a different person is more than most of us can do but that is the only way it can work, IMHO.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> See, I don't see it as a WS versus BS problem. Because the BS's also have to agree during any reconciliation attempt, don't they? I just feel that even with BOTH sides having the best possible intentions, the AP is always in the room.


Maybe Sweetie sees your GF as the AP in the room. 

Maybe that levels the field? I dunno, you said she has dated (and I assume slept with) other men since the D. What makes them different than her AP?


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## TOMTEFAR (Feb 23, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> Sorry, but I don't see this. I mean, we have ALL lied to our SO's. I would be willing to bet on it. And we are ALL seemingly mature enough to know that nobody is perfect and EVERYBODY has issues. It isn't that which bothers me. It's the idea that my ex gave a part of herself to somebody else, and that cannot ever be undone. So a part of her isn't mine anymore.


I don't agree with you here. Most of us don't marry a virgin so our SO have given part of them away before and we are OK with that. I think there is something else that gets in the way.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

bandit.45 said:


> Maybe Sweetie sees your GF as the AP in the room.
> 
> Maybe that levels the field? I dunno, you said she has dated (and I assume slept with) other men since the D. What makes them different than her AP?


The difference is that neither she nor I were married to each other, when we did it (be with other people). She has no claim on me , nor I on her. And...no...it doesn't "level the field". I have done nothing wrong.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

TOMTEFAR said:


> I don't agree with you here. Most of us don't marry a virgin so our SO have given part of them away before and we are OK with that. I think there is something else that gets in the way.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


But what they gave BEFORE the marriage , wasn't mine. what they gave during the affair, was .


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

For the 30 years I felt I was in R, the thought of my now ex-husband's AP was never far away. I triggered every time I met someone with her name. And worried every time he had business trips to the city she lived in. And wondered if she continued to call and email him at his office. I now know he was in contact with her at least periodically during those 30 years. So, yes, I felt her presence the entire time. 

The last time I caught him, I was done. I'm much happier divorced and wish I had divorced him the first time. I see him, and his new wife (who was not his AP), at family functions and I enjoy that for an hour or so. But I very much like leaving without him. And knowing he's no longer my problem. His AP's name has finally ceased to be a trigger and I no longer think of her. That happened once I truly forgave him after the divorce and moved on. 

Because of my history, I'm very cynical about the success of long-term R. Some make it. Many do not.


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## GTdad (Aug 15, 2011)

Given the lousy things she said to on D-Day, if I'm remembering correctly, I'd be hard-pressed to even speak to her again.

I know you've repeatedly said that R is off the table. But it seems to me you've let her live rent-free in your head for far too long. It's been what, three years since the divorce? Time to evict her, already.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Well, I guess you're answering your own question. I guess in your mind the AP will always be there. I get that. 

Rookie are you wanting us to ratify your decision to not R? Because you make good points. I haven't disagreed with a thing you've said.


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## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

I think your having a hard time with acceptance. To take back your ex, you'll have to face the fact that at one time she cut you out of her life, and had someone else there instead. I could be wrong. It is probably different for everyone.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

GTdad said:


> Given the lousy things she said to on D-Day, if I'm remembering correctly, I'd be hard-pressed to even speak to her again.
> 
> I know you've repeatedly said that R is off the table. But it seems to me you've let her live rent-free in your head for far too long. It's been what, three years since the divorce? Time to evict her, already.


Not possible. We have kids , together, so she will be a part of my life, even if she isn't around. A total break cannot happen, any more than an AP's existence can be erased.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

bandit.45 said:


> Well, I guess you're answering your own question. I guess in your mind the AP will always be there. I get that.
> 
> Rookie are you wanting us to ratify your decision to not R? Because you make good points. I haven't disagreed with a thing you've said.


No, I 'm just curious as to HOW people who reconcile overcome this issue. I made my decision years ago, and it was the right one.


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## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> Not possible. We have kids , together, so she will be a part of my life, even if she isn't around. A total break cannot happen, any more than an AP's existence can be erased.


so are you saying the AP is still a presence in your mind???

I hope not because if my R doesn't work, that is one thing I would to be relieved of


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## GTdad (Aug 15, 2011)

Rookie4 said:


> Not possible. We have kids , together, so she will be a part of my life, even if she isn't around. A total break cannot happen, any more than an AP's existence can be erased.


Her being an unavoidable part of your life and having her preoccupy a larger-than-necessary chunk of your brain are two separate things.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Mr.Fisty said:


> I think your having a hard time with acceptance. To take back your ex, you'll have to face the fact that at one time she cut you out of her life, and had someone else there instead. I could be wrong. It is probably different for everyone.


I have no problem with acceptance, at all. I fully understand my entire situation. This is more of an inquiry about other people's attempts at reconciliation.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

convert said:


> so are you saying the AP is still a presence in your mind???
> 
> I hope not because if my R doesn't work, that is one thing I would to be relieved of


Let me put it this way. As some posters know, a couple of years ago, I had an accident at home and amputated a couple of toes. Now... they are gone...and I have adjusted quite well to their loss. BUT... even though they are absent, their "presence" still makes itself felt. Every time it rains. I have other scars, from military service, and from my sordid past, that do the same. This is what I'm refering to, when I talk about the "presence" of the AP in the reconciled marriage. The nagging thought that something is missing, that SHOULD be there.


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## Roselyn (Sep 19, 2010)

Don't let your ex-wife get back into the picture. Let her know that you have moved on. Work on your girlfriend's relationship. Your ex is a nuisance. She will give you nothing but heartache.

Live a good life!


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Roselyn said:


> Don't let your ex-wife get back into the picture. Let her know that you have moved on. Work on your girlfriend's relationship. Your ex is a nuisance. She will give you nothing but heartache.
> 
> Live a good life!


Read my answer to GTdad. We have kids together, so she is going to be a part of my life, forever. That cannot be helped. She isn't much of a nuisance, and she doesn't interfere in my life very much, just recently, because of her accident.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

Rookie4 said:


> Sorry, but I don't see this. I mean, we have ALL lied to our SO's. I would be willing to bet on it. And we are ALL seemingly mature enough to know that nobody is perfect and EVERYBODY has issues. It isn't that which bothers me. It's the idea that my ex gave a part of herself to somebody else, and that cannot ever be undone. So a part of her isn't mine anymore.


Was she a virgin when you two first got together?

I don't want to make it seem like I'm minimizing the pain of the infidelity, but I do so it as a little different if she was. If she was, then she truly gave away something that had only ever been yours. If she wasn't, she has been with another man before. If one were to reconcile, they could look at the AP more like a previous boyfriend she gave it up with.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

Rookie4 said:


> I won't even begin to compare. Both are spectacular, in different ways. But sex MEANS a lot more with my GF, than it did with my ex.


Then perhaps you should thank your ex for helping you upgrade 

(No, I'm not actually suggesting you do that, it would be horribly mean.)


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

larry.gray said:


> Was she a virgin when you two first got together?
> 
> I don't want to make it seem like I'm minimizing the pain of the infidelity, but I do so it as a little different if she was. If she was, then she truly gave away something that had only ever been yours. If she wasn't, she has been with another man before. If one were to reconcile, they could look at the AP more like a previous boyfriend she gave it up with.


 See, this is something she told me , also. To think of the AP as somebody she had sex with , in the past. I consider this disingenuous. An attempt to "downplay" what she did. Who she had sex with before and after our marriage was and is her business. Who she had sex with DURING our marriage was SUPPOSED to be our business( hers and mine), what it became was OUR business, (hers, mine, and the AP's).


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

I'll throw this out there for what it's worth. I believe that, at least in some cases, the thoughts and memories of the AP are more ingrained in the mind of the BS than the WS. Let me explain.

Any WS that is truly, deeply remorseful for what they have done has a hard time with the "mental movies" and memories of the pain they caused. In an effort to minimize their suffering, they force those memories out of their thoughts. The thing that causes memory engrams to be strengthened is repetitive use. So, as the WS uses them less than the BS, their memory of the "incident" fades more quickly. I have asked my WS for details from her experience and she responds that she honestly does not remember the minutia. She has wept trying to recall specifics that just are no longer there. The memories have faded from lack of use.

I know what's coming...she's lying out her *** but we have talked extensively about truth and honesty and I believe her. Also, I know from experience when I try to recall something from years back that I don't think of often I have to try hard to recall and often the specific details are not there.

That has been the hardest part of R for me is forcing those thoughts out of my normal thought process. It really is illogical to replay them if, as I said in the previous post, we have started anew. That woman has died and until I see the same personality traits in my "new" S, then it is counterproductive to think of what a person did who no longer exists. Easy to say, much more difficult to do.


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

Rookie,

It sounds like you have thought this out. I guess my question is if she is looking to come back after she had all of her 'fun' if you will, after screwing you over and making your life miserable. If so, and she wants to 'settle down' now, I would find that insulting if I was in the same case.

I am not an advocate of R anyway although I am not the one who has to deal with the ramificiations of if you do or don't. 

I just hope that your GF is treated with first class since she has been good to you. 

I agree with you that once they cheat, the affair will always be with you and always on your mind. It's like being told to run the Boston Marathon with crutches. 

Good luck to you


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

NoChoice said:


> I'll throw this out there for what it's worth. I believe that, at least in some cases, the thoughts and memories of the AP are more ingrained in the mind of the BS than the WS. Let me explain.
> 
> Any WS that is truly, deeply remorseful for what they have done has a hard time with the "mental movies" and memories of the pain they caused. In an effort to minimize their suffering, they force those memories out of their thoughts. The thing that causes memory engrams to be strengthened is repetitive use. So, as the WS uses them less than the BS, their memory of the "incident" fades more quickly. I have asked my WS for details from her experience and she responds that she honestly does not remember the minutia. She has wept trying to recall specifics that just are no longer there. The memories have faded from lack of use.
> 
> ...


I agree that memories"fade" but it only takes one trigger to have them come back. Why do this? I can go to bed with my GF and never have to think of her AP, because she hasn't got one. I don't have the affair hanging over my head with her, because she hasn't had an affair. There are only two people in my relationship with her.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

wmn1 said:


> Rookie,
> 
> It sounds like you have thought this out. I guess my question is if she is looking to come back after she had all of her 'fun' if you will, after screwing you over and making your life miserable. If so, and she wants to 'settle down' now, I would find that insulting if I was in the same case.
> 
> ...


If you know anything about my situation, you would know that my ex did not look at the affair as "fun", she looked at it as payback for my neglect of her.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> If you know anything about my situation, you would know that my ex did not look at the affair as "fun", she looked at it as payback for my neglect of her.


Bullsh!t. They always say that. If it was just payback, why did she keep going back? If I go to an amusement park, paid $50, and it sucked, I wouldn't go back...ever. Same with sex.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

I guess I wanted to hear from more posters who are reconciling, and to hear their stories of how they overcame or are overcoming this issue. I would like to ask them , why do they bother?
The AP's presence/ memory isn't going away. It will always be there influencing every intimate moment. Is this even healthy? For the WS, do you actually want to remember what you did, and who you did it with? For the BS, do you really want to remember what was done to you, and by whom? Wouldn't it be better for BOTH, to throw the baggage away?


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Rookie
What a shame that sweety's OM is taking up so much of your mind. 

Some BS's have a greater capacity to forgive. 
Others refuse to let the OM/OM "win". 

When it comes to long term successful reconciliation I think you have to have two people that truly forgive all aspects of the affair, refuse to let the affair partner have any space in their Heads or lives but most of all they want to be together for each other. 

I hope you get this guy out of your head. He deserves no thought from you

Ever.....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

bandit.45 said:


> Bullsh!t. They always say that. If it was just payback, why did she keep going back? If I go to an amusement park, paid $50, and it sucked, I wouldn't go back...ever. Same with sex.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't know about that, Bandit. I don't like Chipotle... most people do.. so I've tried it a number of times to see what I'm not getting. BTW I still don't like it. 
I have no reason to doubt her take on the affair. It fits in with her personality , and it was so short , that I'm pretty sure she didn't get a lot of yuks out of it.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

happyman64 said:


> Rookie
> What a shame that sweeties is taking up so much of your mind.
> 
> Some BS's have a greater capacity to forgive.
> ...


It has only come up, due to my being in close contact with Sweetie, these past couple of months, since her accident. Normally, I don't think about the AP much at all, and almost never when I'm with my GF. Not calling you a liar, but I don't believe that you can "will' somebody out of your memory. You can forgive an affair, but that does not imply that it isn't a part of your marriage.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

*Re: Re: Three on a match.*



Rookie4 said:


> But, enough about me. I would like to hear from posters who CLAIM to be reconciling, and how they deal with the presence/influence of the AP, in their marriage.


Having never reconciled myself all I can do is relate something Beowulf once told me. He said you really do have to make the marriage post D-day a completely new marriage. You have to have that mindset or it's not going to work. In that way I suppose the AP is relegated to "just another ex" status. I think I understood what he meant but not sure if I really get it.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

*Re: Re: Three on a match.*



Rookie4 said:


> I won't even begin to compare. Both are spectacular, in different ways. But sex MEANS a lot more with my GF, than it did with my ex.


Rookie, is this the same GF you were with when you tried to reconcile with sweetie a couple of years ago?


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

bfree said:


> Having never reconciled myself all I can do is relate something Beowulf once told me. He said you really do have to make the marriage post D-day a completely new marriage. You have to have that mindset or it's not going to work. In that way I suppose the AP is relegated to "just another ex" status. I think I understood what he meant but not sure if I really get it.


I usually agree with Beowulf. He always seemed to be a very smart poster. I think the same as him. I feel that the old marriage is over, but I don't think that it is truly just.
How about this, for an idea? Have a marriage ceremony where only the WS renews his/her vows. After all, the BS didn't break his/her, did they. So why should they have to renew them? It would be a lesson in humility for the WS, and would accent the WS's acknowledgement of their infidelity, and re-commitment to their vows. Invite the AP to watch.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

bfree said:


> Rookie, is this the same GF you were with when you tried to reconcile with sweetie a couple of years ago?


Yep, it is. I broke up with her, as you know, and did my best to forget her, but it was no use. I finally knew that it wasn't going to work with Sweetie, because I couldn't pretend to be in love with her , anymore.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

*Re: Re: Three on a match.*



Rookie4 said:


> I usually agree with Beowulf. He always seemed to be a very smart poster. I think the same as him. I feel that the old marriage is over, but I don't think that it is truly just.
> How about this, for an idea? Have a marriage ceremony where only the WS renews his/her vows. After all, the BS didn't break his/her, did they. So why should they have to renew them? It would be a lesson in humility for the WS, and would accent the WS's acknowledgement of their infidelity, and re-commitment to their vows. Invite the AP to watch.


I kinda like that idea! It's cathartic and kinky all at the same time. Lol


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

*Re: Re: Three on a match.*



Rookie4 said:


> Yep, it is. I broke up with her, as you know, and did my best to forget her, but it was no use. I finally knew that it wasn't going to work with Sweetie, because I couldn't pretend to be in love with her , anymore.


Let me just say then rookie, that's one hell of a woman! To step aside like that and allow you the freedom to explore your feelings is a very selfless act. Unlike cheating which is the definition of selfish. She obviously loves you very much to put your needs well above her own.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

```

```



bfree said:


> Let me just say then rookie, that's one hell of a woman! To step aside like that and allow you the freedom to explore your feelings is a very selfless act. Unlike cheating which is the definition of selfish. She obviously loves you very much to put your needs well above her own.


You betcha!! She is all I ever imagined a woman could be. What kind of woman would take in her BF's ex wife and treat her kindly? She is the best there is.:smthumbup:


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> I agree that memories"fade" but it only takes one trigger to have them come back. *Why do this?* I can go to bed with my GF and never have to think of her AP, because she hasn't got one. I don't have the affair hanging over my head with her, because she hasn't had an affair. There are only two people in my relationship with her.


Because I wanted to. I have over 30 years invested and kids and grandkids that would be affected by splitting up with my WS. Overall, a relatively small portion of my life is in the bedroom and the rest made it worth it to me. Things hang over your head only if you allow them to. It's not easy but it is possible. Rookie, it's really about how badly you want something. My new wife is a good wife and treats me very well, probably better than I deserve and that's why I CLAIM to be reconciling.



Rookie4 said:


> I guess I wanted to hear from more posters who are reconciling, and to hear their stories of how they overcame or are overcoming this issue. I would like to ask them , why do they bother?
> *The AP's presence/ memory isn't going away.* It will always be there influencing every intimate moment. Is this even healthy? For the WS, do you actually want to remember what you did, and who you did it with? For the BS, do you really want to remember what was done to you, and by whom? Wouldn't it be better for BOTH, to throw the baggage away?


Mine have faded a great deal as I've learned to stop replaying them over and over. The less I think of them, the less they "pop up" in my head and the fewer details I can remember. Yes there are triggers but they too are fading. I threw out the bathwater, just not the baby.



happyman64 said:


> Rookie
> What a shame that sweeties is taking up so much of your mind.
> 
> Some BS's have a greater capacity to forgive.
> ...


Rookie, you've moved on to a GF and the AP still haunts your thoughts, we're not that much different except mine is fading. I'm learning to take his power away and it's working but it's something only we can do.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> By Rookie
> ". But that bedazzling, gut churning, irrational desire for each other.....I no longer think so.


If you have that after several years of marriage/relationship then consider yourself lucky. *Do you know anyone that feels like that after 10-20 years of marriage/relationship?*




> Those who say that their marriages are "better' post affair, I am very skeptical of.


In some areas it can be. Some areas of marriage will never be “better”





> The main reason is this. Once the WS invites the AP into the marriage, he/she is there permanently. It is no longer a marriage of two persons, it is a marriage of three
> Every decision, post affair, every thought , word , or deed, is made with him/her , in mind. Even the decision to ignore his/her presence.


Not even every IMPORTANT decision, thought, word, or deed is made with him/her in mind! He is irrelevant and a non-factor, I almost never think about him at all. My decision to remarry my wife had nothing to do with him and that was a MAJOR decision! 



> What I'm more interested in is HOW do people who are attempting to R, "let go" of the AP's presence.


I am not attempting to R I have R for over 20 years. How did I let go of the AP’s presence? I made adjustments in my thinking for several years.* I decided that I had to get more self-sufficient and self-reliant and get into the position that I can live with her or without her*. I would prefer to live with her and she would hurt me if she betrayed me again but I would not be devastated and would look forward to a new life. I no longer believe in “that bedazzling, gut churning, irrational desire for each other” That exists as a temporary fairytale for me.* I do believe in an adequate amount of self-sufficiency and at the same time have a good amount of caring for my wife.* The OM is dead to me and I never hated that man because he is not the one that betrayed me, he was just another dog in heat. I am happy with myself and my life.* I have very good relations with my children and other family members and am very contented almost all of the time. I am not going to allow the AP’s presence to diminish my successful life.*




> I agree that memories"fade" but it only takes one trigger to have them come back. Why do this?


Triggers are either completely gone or so weak that I can remember them.

Rookie, you are right about your wife being connected to you for life. She had your children and you had your youth with her and that is something that no woman now or in the future is going to have with you. That does not mean that you have only one choice and that is to take your wife back. If you’re GF fills more of your life than your ex-wife then that is a no brainer to me.


Rookie, I am interested in your statement below. *Why do you feel that way?*



> Every IMPORTANT decision, post affair, every thought, word, or deed, is made with him/her , in mind. Even the decision to ignore his/her presence.



Welcome back Rookie


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

NoChoice said:


> Because I wanted to. I have over 30 years invested and kids and grandkids that would be affected by splitting up with my WS. Overall, a relatively small portion of my life is in the bedroom and the rest made it worth it to me. Things hang over your head only if you allow them to. It's not easy but it is possible. Rookie, it's really about how badly you want something. My new wife is a good wife and treats me very well, probably better than I deserve and that's why I CLAIM to be reconciling.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nochoice, I can understand the REASONS why people reconcile, and for some people, they are good reasons. I'm not denying that. Although I never looked upon my marriage as an "investment". I am just more interested in the "how" not the "why".
Also, nothing you have said, convinces me that the AP isn't an integral part of your marriage, and will be , always. The memories might fade, but they are still there. I just wonder why people won't admit to it. The idea that you have somehow taken his power, implies that it is there to take, doesn't it.? I also would like to know how you did this ? 
As far as I'm concerned, the amount that the AP"haunts" me is a little too dramatic, and isn't all that relevant. As I said, it has only come up, because I have been in close contact with my ex. When I'm not, it doesn't come up at all. Which only proves my assertion. It will always be there, and you or your ws cannot erase it completely, any more than I can regrow my toes.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

*Re: Re: Three on a match.*



Mr Blunt said:


> If you have that after several years of marriage/relationship then consider yourself lucky. *Do you know anyone that feels like that after 10-20 years of marriage/relationship?*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The idea of being self sufficient and self reliant is something everyone should strive for. That is exactly my goal in my marriage. Being able to live with her or without her is another good martial tactic. Both my wife and I subscribe to that mindset as well. I think those qualities are present not only in successful reconciliation but good marriages in general.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Mr Blunt said:


> If you have that after several years of marriage/relationship then consider yourself lucky. *Do you know anyone that feels like that after 10-20 years of marriage/relationship?*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hiya, Blunt. Glad to be back. See, the thing is, that Sweetie and I were madly in love for years. I don't believe that that Bedazzling feeling ,necessarily HAS to fade, I believe that we LET it fade. Marriages are like rose bushes , they need tending to flourish. I don't want to be in ANY relationship that is devoid of that certain feeling.
I sadi t, because I believe it to be true. Post affair, every intimate decision you or your wife make, will have some connection to the AP. Even if it is small or even if you don't recognize it as such. It is a part of being human. The effect of the AP isn't always obvious, but it is always permanent. I'm sure that if you thought about some of the things that you do, now. You will see the imprint of the AP on them, in some way.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Rookie4 said:


> I really don't care where it happened, I care that it happened at all.


And thats to be expected. I think we all feel that way as a BS. Just curious why the AP gets so much power from you. Even today I never think about my Xs AP. He is irrelevant to me. But I think of her betrayl often and how that's affected me, my future, my future relationships, my kids. 

She made all these vows and promises to me. I lived up to my end she did not. The guy she slept with was just a guy she worked with that had a great line of BS. He didn't owe me anything....doesn't even know me. Well maybe as a man he should have been stand up enough to say I'm not going to screw you in the house with your kids in it and in your marital bed. But beyond that could care less about him. 

I have a friend that reconciled. Her husband had the affair. They went to counseling to deal with the trust issues but not the other woman. She was out of the picture entirely at that point. 

I think those who reconcile successfully eliminate the AP from the relationship and work on what's really been damaged which is the trust and respect of the WS. And by eliminate the AP I me that person has got to be gone. If in my example I worked things out with my x she would have had to quit her job for us to move forward.


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> Nochoice, I can understand the REASONS why people reconcile, and for some people, they are good reasons. I'm not denying that. Although I never looked upon my marriage as an "investment". I am just more interested in the "how" not the "why".
> Also, nothing you have said, convinces me that the AP isn't an integral part of your marriage, and will be , always. The memories might fade, but they are still there. I just wonder why people won't admit to it. The idea that you have somehow taken his power, implies that it is there to take, doesn't it.? I also would like to know how you did this ?
> As far as I'm concerned, the amount that the AP"haunts" me is a little too dramatic, and isn't all that relevant. As I said, it has only come up, because I have been in close contact with my ex. When I'm not, it doesn't come up at all. Which only proves my assertion. It will always be there, and you or your ws cannot erase it completely, any more than I can regrow my toes.


Rookie I am not trying to convince you of anything. You asked how and I explained that by forcing OM out of my mind it causes the bad memories to fade in significance. Mr Blunt said almost the exact same thing and he is a over a decade ahead of me and that helps me know that as more time goes by my triggers will, as his have, fade to nonexistence AS I LET THEM GO. My WS cannot erase anything out of my mind, I have to do that with her help and reassurance and I am. Whether you believe me or not does not negate the fact that I, like Mr Blunt, am R and I am succeeding. My triggers are nothing like they were a few years ago either in number or frequency.

The "power" is only what I give it in my mind and by not giving in to those thoughts I can remove that influence. I have doe it to a great degree and continue to do so.



Rookie4 said:


> Hiya, Blunt. Glad to be back. See, the thing is, that Sweetie and I were madly in love for years. I don't believe that that Bedazzling feeling ,necessarily HAS to fade, I believe that we LET it fade. Marriages are like rose bushes , they need tending to flourish. I don't want to be in ANY relationship that is devoid of that certain feeling.
> I sadi t, because I believe it to be true. Post affair, every intimate decision you or your wife make, will have some connection to the AP. Even if it is small or even if you don't recognize it as such. It is a part of being human. The effect of the AP isn't always obvious, but it is always permanent. I'm sure that if you thought about some of the things that you do, now. You will see the imprint of the AP on them, in some way.


I rarely think of the OM now at all and in time I believe it will go altogether. In the words of Mr Ripley...believe it or not.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> It has only come up, due to my being in close contact with Sweetie, these past couple of months, since her accident. Normally, I don't think about the AP much at all, and almost never when I'm with my GF. Not calling you a liar, but I don't believe that you can "will' somebody out of your memory. You can forgive an affair, but that does not imply that it isn't a part of your marriage.


It is called mind over matter.

But it depends in your mind what "matters".


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Wolf1974 said:


> And thats to be expected. I think we all feel that way as a BS. Just curious why the AP gets so much power from you. Even today I never think about my Xs AP. He is irrelevant to me. But I think of her betrayl often and how that's affected me, my future, my future relationships, my kids.
> 
> She made all these vows and promises to me. I lived up to my end she did not. The guy she slept with was just a guy she worked with that had a great line of BS. He didn't owe me anything....doesn't even know me. Well maybe as a man he should have been stand up enough to say I'm not going to screw you in the house with your kids in it and in your marital bed. But beyond that could care less about him.
> 
> ...


I don't think you are getting what I'm pitching. It isn't that the AP has any power, it is that he/she will influence the marriage, post affair, by the fact that he/she existed at all. Think about it like my analogy of my toes. Now, the loss of them doesn't particularly bother me, now. I have adjusted to life without them. But my future life will be effected by their loss, permanently. There's no getting around it. As I said in my first post. The WS might have completely repudiated the AP. she may hate him/her, she may have nothing to do with him/her, in any way. He/she might even be dead, but that doesn't mean that the AP isn't still having an effect on Both the WS and the BS, and it has not been shown that this can be eliminated. Lessened, yes, not brought up, yes, but he /she will influence you (pl) behavior.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

happyman64 said:


> It is called mind over matter.
> 
> But it depends in your mind what "matters".


Well, if you can figure out a way I can "will' my toes back. Let me know.It would help with buying new shoes.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

NoChoice said:


> Rookie I am not trying to convince you of anything. You asked how and I explained that by forcing OM out of my mind it causes the bad memories to fade in significance. Mr Blunt said almost the exact same thing and he is a over a decade ahead of me and that helps me know that as more time goes by my triggers will, as his have, fade to nonexistence AS I LET THEM GO. My WS cannot erase anything out of my mind, I have to do that with her help and reassurance and I am. Whether you believe me or not does not negate the fact that I, like Mr Blunt, am R and I am succeeding. My triggers are nothing like they were a few years ago either in number or frequency.
> 
> The "power" is only what I give it in my mind and by not giving in to those thoughts I can remove that influence. I have doe it to a great degree and continue to do so.
> 
> ...


You are perfectly free to believe what you want, if it makes you feel good.

Well, I don't. I"m betting that the whole psychiatric medical field would also be interested in the ability to completely erase selective memory. Sorry , pardner, it doesn't work that way.


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## BobSimmons (Mar 2, 2013)

bandit.45 said:


> Sweetie is your ex for a reason.
> 
> *She's playing nice with the other girl because she has to to stay on your good side. Secretly, she cannot stand your GF. *
> 
> ...


Hahaha FFS, how real is this! Beautiful! I'll drink a beer for you and me. Gorgeously put!

I also agree, how wayward is this, knowing the man is taken but still pursuing him.

That forbidden fruit, we're keeping secrets endorphin raising behavior is still prevalent.

But seriously Rookie, why are you even talking to her about reconciliation or on that topic at all, I mean if this were your current girlfriend's ex sniffing around and them talking, how much would it make you trigger?

This get old very quickly. Your current GF may put up with it but it will get old. You need to cut this out very quickly. 

This is what you wrote in another thread:

*Reconciliation means different things to different people. We were able to re-acquire love and respect for the other person, and ensure that the affair and it's aftermath would not be an issue in our family, in the future.*

Seems she's still not respecting your decision and the aftermath has become an issue in the future. You said it was successful R, now you're ex is following you around doing this.

Don't let the affair ruin another relationship.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Rookie4 said:


> I don't think you are getting what I'm pitching. It isn't that the AP has any power, it is that he/she will influence the marriage, post affair, by the fact that he/she existed at all. Think about it like my analogy of my toes. Now, the loss of them doesn't particularly bother me, now. I have adjusted to life without them. But my future life will be effected by their loss, permanently. There's no getting around it. As I said in my first post. The WS might have completely repudiated the AP. she may hate him/her, she may have nothing to do with him/her, in any way. He/she might even be dead, but that doesn't mean that the AP isn't still having an effect on Both the WS and the BS, and it has not been shown that this can be eliminated. Lessened, yes, not brought up, yes, but he /she will influence you (pl) behavior.


I don't know I think the toe analogy proved my point. Yes you lost your toes, like the affair you lost the trust , love and respect of someone. You now have to make a new life going forward without the toes which is reconciliation. The Affair partner in this analogy would be the power tool that cut off the toes. But are you upset at this tool or upset with the circumstances that had this event happen in the first place. I apologize I don't really know how you lost them so just using this to make my point.

If this happend to me I would always think to myself I need to be more careful. I can't let these circumstances happen again. Or dwell on what limitations I can't do without my toes and so on. Last thing I wokkd think about was the power tool.

Just my perspective .


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Wolf1974 said:


> I don't know I think the toe analogy proved my point. Yes you lost your toes, like the affair you lost the trust , love and respect of someone. You now have to make a new life going forward without the toes which is reconciliation. The Affair partner in this analogy would be the power tool that cut off the toes. But are you upset at this tool or upset with the circumstances that had this event happen in the first place. I apologize I don't really know how you lost them so just using this to make my point.
> 
> If this happend to me I would always think to myself I need to be more careful. I can't let these circumstances happen again. Or dwell on what limitations I can't do without my toes and so on. Last thing I wokkd think about was the power tool.
> 
> Just my perspective .


Power tool??:scratchhead: Oh, I gotcha. No, no. My analogy is about something that isn't there but still effects you, like the AP and my toes, both of which are physically gone, but both of which still have an effect. I guess I should have gone with the 700# Gorilla analogy.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

BobSimmons said:


> Hahaha FFS, how real is this! Beautiful! I'll drink a beer for you and me. Gorgeously put!
> 
> I also agree, how wayward is this, knowing the man is taken but still pursuing him.
> 
> ...


Well, apparently the reconciliation didn't go as smoothly for her as it did for me. I'm over her, but she still believes that we should be together. I'm just trying to express one of my reasons for not restarting our relationship, in any other form but as friends and co-parents. There are others. But that is for another thread.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

*Re: Re: Three on a match.*



Rookie4 said:


> Well, if you can figure out a way I can "will' my toes back. Let me know.It would help with buying new shoes.


Yeah but just think. Now you can wear those really pointy high heels that are so popular nowadays.


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## learning to love myself (Apr 18, 2013)

Hi,

I'm the WS and we our just 3 years into our reconciliation.

I was cheated on in my first 10 year relationship by a serial cheater, I understand the devastation it causes. I have been in my current marriage a bit over 24 years. 

I cheated on my husband, this was not love, it was me looking for sex. (I placed an add). I believe it would have been a lot easier to divorce my husband prior to infidelity, than to take the needed steps to reconcile. 

For my husband, I don't think he has given the man I slept with to much though past the first 6 months of our new life, for him, it has been more about me and his feeling of not knowing me and what I was capable of doing to our family that has made him the most angry. 

I'm not saying the guy doesn't ever come up, He just puts 110% on me and I know I need to do all of the heavy lifting. I would say over the last 6 month or so, my husband has had a softer side of understanding. 

I own the cheating at 100% just recently he told me that he should have been a better husband and that he became complacent in our marriage. 

Because I have spent the last 3 years holding myself accountable for everything including non related happiness within the family I have become a bit co-dependent and he is trying to help me to stop this behavior. 

I'm one to believe you can have a better marriage after infidelity. It has become very freeing to say the truth no matter how small, however, it will not be the same marriage, my husband doesn't seem to like the 100% honest at all cost approach even though he said he wants it.

This puts me on the constant defense of having an opinion different than his, I then feel guilty about being honest or hurting his feelings. 

I know the road ahead is long, I hope to prove to a worthy partner.


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> You are perfectly free to believe what you want, if it makes you feel good.
> 
> Well, I don't. I"m betting that the whole psychiatric medical field would also be interested in the ability to completely erase selective memory. Sorry , pardner, it doesn't work that way.


Well for me, Mr Blunt and maybe, it sounds like anyway, Wolf1974 it does. Wolf's analogy of the power tool is very accurate. The trust and commitment (your toes) were cut off by the OM but he was just a tool. The void is not the missing power tool but rather the toes which can, over time, heal over and no longer be raw and unusable.

It may not be exactly as before but most of the usefulness of the foot remains. You seem to be hung up on blaming the saw and not being able to forget what the saw did to you but that's not the real issue. The saw is not that relevant but restoring what's left of the toes is, so that the foot can function again. I honestly do not place the importance on the tool that you do. I wish the saw had not taken my toes but you know what, it did. So now I can sit there blaming the saw or I can learn to go on, wounded but wiser. Just my take on it. I hope you can let the saw go because even in the absence of your WW the saw can still do damage if YOU let it. I wish you the best.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> By Rookie
> Every IMPORTANT decision, post affair, every thought, word, or deed, is made with him/her , in mind. Even the decision to ignore his/her presence
> 
> Post affair, every intimate decision you or your wife make, will have some connection to the AP.
> ...



Rookie, I have no doubt that what you said above applies to you. However, it does not apply to me. The reason that I say it does not apply to me is that you have stated “EVERY” important and “intimate decisions is made with him in mind” and “will have some connection to the AP”. *That simple does not apply to me.*

I cannot remember the last time I thought of the AP. The only time I think about him is when on this TAM forum someone asks about that issue. He has no effect on me at all. *If I force myself I can think of some triggers but they are so very weak and insignificant.* One trigger that I just thought of, because of this discussion, was the restaurant that they (Wife and OM) went to. I go there every week to eat and often with my wife and have for the last 10 years. That used to be a strong trigger in the very early years but it means very little to nothing now.


*Now if you would have said that one of my losses had to do with the betrayal then I could agree with you.* I am going to be specific now because we may not be that far apart on this issue. My wife thought that I was the greatest thing since sliced bread and was totally engrossed with me for many years. She just could not get enough of me and that fueled my idealistic view that she would rather die than betray me. Because she treated me so well and thought that I could walk on water I had this special trust and admiration for her. By the way I treated her very well also.


So to try and connect your point to one of my realities I can say that after the betrayal I PERMANENTLY lost that special admiration I had for her in that area. In other words one quality that drew me close to her and had me in admiration of her was destroyed.* That was because of her betrayal not the AP.* I told her when we were first married that if she very cheated I would blame her 100% not some OM that are out there by the millions.


Rookie, when you say “…every thought, word, or deed, is made with him/her, in mind.” 
*What SPECIFICALLY are you referring to?*


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Mr Blunt said:


> Rookie, I have no doubt that what you said above applies to you. However, it does not apply to me. The reason that I say it does not apply to me is that you have stated “EVERY” important and “intimate decisions is made with him in mind” and “will have some connection to the AP”. *That simple does not apply to me.*
> 
> I cannot remember the last time I thought of the AP. The only time I think about him is when on this TAM forum someone asks about that issue. He has no effect on me at all. *If I force myself I can think of some triggers but they are so very weak and insignificant.* One trigger that I just thought of, because of this discussion, was the restaurant that they (Wife and OM) went to. I go there every week to eat and often with my wife and have for the last 10 years. That used to be a strong trigger in the very early years but it means very little to nothing now.
> 
> ...


What I referred to, specifically , was the exclusivity of the marriage, and all of it's intimate, private details. Because there is an AP, that has changed permanently. Details that only you and your spouse should know, are now known by another person. That exclusivity is now gone. Like I said in a previous post. What my ex did both before and after our marriage isn't my concern, what she did DURING our marriage SHOULD ONLY be of concern to HER and I, alone. But, in reality, that isn't true, is it? The AP by virtue of his/her existence, is now a part of that equation. He /she is aware of our intimate details, and was willingly allowed those details by the WS.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

NoChoice said:


> Well for me, Mr Blunt and maybe, it sounds like anyway, Wolf1974 it does. Wolf's analogy of the power tool is very accurate. The trust and commitment (your toes) were cut off by the OM but he was just a tool. The void is not the missing power tool but rather the toes which can, over time, heal over and no longer be raw and unusable.
> 
> It may not be exactly as before but most of the usefulness of the foot remains. You seem to be hung up on blaming the saw and not being able to forget what the saw did to you but that's not the real issue. The saw is not that relevant but restoring what's left of the toes is, so that the foot can function again. I honestly do not place the importance on the tool that you do. I wish the saw had not taken my toes but you know what, it did. So now I can sit there blaming the saw or I can learn to go on, wounded but wiser. Just my take on it. I hope you can let the saw go because even in the absence of your WW the saw can still do damage if YOU let it. I wish you the best.


I think that the problem we are having, NoChoice, is that both you and Blunt are attempting to fix responsibility , while I am just stating that the issue exists. I know that the AP isn't responsible for our marriage issues. But he now exists., when he shouldn't.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

Rookie, when you say “…every thought, word, or deed, is made with him/her, in mind.” 
What SPECIFICALLY are you referring to?



> *By Rookie*
> What I referred to, specifically , was the exclusivity of the marriage, and all of it's intimate, private details. Because there is an AP, that has changed permanently. Details that only you and your spouse should know, are now known by another person. That exclusivity is now gone. Like I said in a previous post. What my ex did both before and after our marriage isn't my concern, what she did DURING our marriage SHOULD ONLY be of concern to HER and I, alone. But, in reality, that isn't true, is it? The AP by virtue of his/her existence, is now a part of that equation. He /she is aware of our intimate details, and was willingly allowed those details by the WS
> 
> He /she is aware of our intimate details, and was willingly allowed those details by the WS



I assume your “Intimate details” involve the sex act and possibly giving her/his emotions to the OM/OW that belong to the husband/wife. Perhaps there is even more than sex and emotions. No doubt that will cause a quake with a Richter scale of 9.9
In the early years I can see how that could consume your “…every thought, word, or deed, is made with him/her, in mind.” 


However, if you take the right actions it does not have to be that all-consuming. Like I have said I believe that what you have stated is true for you but remember you do not even have 5 years after your D-day. Most professionals say that it takes 5 years if you do everything right to start getting a lot better with the betrayal. 

I am not saying that the betrayal does not cause some permanent damage because it does but to state that “…every thought, word, or deed, is made with him/her, in mind.” for every case is you speaking of your experience for less than 5 years. *You really cannot speak for those that have 10-20+ years of R*


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

Rookie4 said:


> See, this is something she told me , also. To think of the AP as somebody she had sex with , in the past. I consider this disingenuous. An attempt to "downplay" what she did. Who she had sex with before and after our marriage was and is her business. Who she had sex with DURING our marriage was SUPPOSED to be our business( hers and mine), what it became was OUR business, (hers, mine, and the AP's).


:iagree: If the WS uses this as a line of argument, then it really is disingenuous. 

I think of it as more as something that would make it even harder if it was the case. As a BS, you've got to eat a **** sandwich. It makes it even bigger one if the WS also giving himself / herself away when it was something only between them before the affair.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Mr Blunt said:


> Rookie, when you say “…every thought, word, or deed, is made with him/her, in mind.”
> What SPECIFICALLY are you referring to?
> 
> 
> ...


Blunt, who said it was "all consuming"? I certainly didn't. I think that it exists, to a greater or lesser degree. In some cases and with some people, it is foremost in their thinking, in others, it is more like "background noise" you barely notice it , at all. But, the AP exists, and the marriage has to take his/her existence into account. To ignore the existence of the AP is rugsweeping.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

larry.gray said:


> :iagree: If the WS uses this as a line of argument, then it really is disingenuous.
> 
> I think of it as more as something that would make it even harder if it was the case. As a BS, you've got to eat a **** sandwich. It makes it even bigger one if the WS also giving himself / herself away when it was something only between them before the affair.


To give Sweetie her due, I don't think she said that to avoid blame. You know, Larry , how much work she did to earn back my trust in her. You were one of the earliest supporters of our attempted R, and know our story pretty well. I think she was trying to minimize the importance of the AP, as a way of "smoothing" the way for our R, and to show how little he meant to her.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Lets look at it logically. The marriage is reconciling....why? because there was an affair. The affair required three people...the WS the BS, and the AP. Therefore....the AP is involved in the marriage, and also the reconciliation. How can it be any other way?


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> I think that the problem we are having, NoChoice, is that both you and Blunt are attempting to fix responsibility , while I am just stating that the issue exists. I know that the AP isn't responsible for our marriage issues. *But he now exists., when he shouldn't*.


In memory only, unarguably accurate but only until that memory fades to black.



Rookie4 said:


> Blunt, who said it was "all consuming"? I certainly didn't. I think that it exists, to a greater or lesser degree. In some cases and with some people, it is foremost in their thinking, in others, it is more like "background noise" you barely notice it , at all. But, the AP exists, and the marriage has to take his/her existence into account. To ignore the existence of the AP is rugsweeping.


Existed, past tense, as an active part of the marriage. Once the AP has been fully dealt with it is no longer rugsweeping but rather moving on.



Rookie4 said:


> Lets look at it logically. The marriage is reconciling....why? because there was an affair. The affair required three people...the WS the BS, and the AP. Therefore....the AP is involved in the marriage, and also the reconciliation. How can it be any other way?


But the reconciliation only requires 2 dedicated and devoted people. He is by definition excluded from any R. Only the past memory must be dealt with.

The only issue I have with this is you seem to be ignoring time. If the A is over and done then, yes, the AP *was*a part of the marriage but currently all that's left are the effects of his involvement. I fail to see how he is involved in the R. He is no longer an active part of the equation moving forward. There certainly *was* a time when he shared in the marriage but that has ceased if the A is over. The only part of the marriage he now shares is a band of time that represents his involvement in the marriage as a memory and that can fade to nothingness.

His only involvement now is in our heads and we can control that, or at least some of us can. I know now that you do not believe that and that is certainly your right but for something to be true does not require you to believe it.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

NoChoice said:


> In memory only, unarguably accurate but only until that memory fades to black.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I could say the same about you. You seem to think you can "will" the memories away. I don't believe that is possible, because in order to "will" the memories away, you have to think about them , in the first place. If they were truly gone, what would there be to remember, to forget? I think that if a person believes that the AP has zero influence on the reconciliation, they are fooling themselves. Because, regardless of what you say, the AP is part of the reason WHY you are having to reconcile. Time does NOT heal all wounds, it can ease their effects, and it can reduce their impact, but the wounding still exists, as long as the memory of it exists. And I'm betting that the WS remembers the AP.....vividly.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

*Re: Re: Three on a match.*



Rookie4 said:


> Lets look at it logically. The marriage is reconciling....why? because there was an affair. The affair required three people...the WS the BS, and the AP. Therefore....the AP is involved in the marriage, and also the reconciliation. How can it be any other way?


Maybe that's just it. You cannot think of reconciliation completely logically. After all, the affair itself was not logical. And if you think about it, forgiveness is not really logical. If someone betrays or otherwise hurts you why should you forgive them? Why should you let your guard down? Why take the chance? It seems to me that forgiveness and reconciliation have to be taken on faith. The facts point to the contrary. The evidence does not support it. History suggests it should not be attempted. It is not logical. Then again, love is not logical. Forgiveness is not logical. We are not logical. Perhaps a leap of faith is required. Maybe this is where I am struggling to fully forgive my ex. I have no problem putting my faith in God. But I have been hurt...a lot. Maybe my faith in people is not as strong as it should be.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

But, then again, this is getting somewhat off the intent of this thread. I have come to the conclusion that there are many reasons why people reconcile, and few of them are about love. And fewer are truly honest. The idea that the AP is a part of any reconciliation is very hard to admit, and very hard to be honest about.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

bfree said:


> Maybe that's just it. You cannot think of reconciliation completely logically. After all, the affair itself was not logical. And if you think about it, forgiveness is not really logical. If someone betrays or otherwise hurts you why should you forgive them? Why should you let your guard down? Why take the chance? It seems to me that forgiveness and reconciliation have to be taken on faith. The facts point to the contrary. The evidence does not support it. History suggests it should not be attempted. It is not logical. Then again, love is not logical. Forgiveness is not logical. We are not logical. Perhaps a leap of faith is required. Maybe this is where I am struggling to fully forgive my ex. I have no problem putting my faith in God. But I have been hurt...a lot. Maybe my faith in people is not as strong as it should be.


Or maybe your rational mind is telling you that faith isn't ever enough? They say that faith moves mountains, but I've never seen it done. Nor has anybody else.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

*Re: Re: Three on a match.*



Rookie4 said:


> Or maybe your rational mind is telling you that faith isn't ever enough? They say that faith moves mountains, but I've never seen it done. Nor has anybody else.


That's exactly my default thought process. And it's where I struggle sometimes, the line between faith and logic.


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> I could say the same about you. You seem to think you can "will" the memories away. I don't believe that is possible, because in order to "will" the memories away, you have to think about them , in the first place. If they were truly gone, what would there be to remember, to forget? I think that if a person believes that the AP has zero influence on the reconciliation, they are fooling themselves. Because, regardless of what you say, the AP is part of the reason WHY you are having to reconcile. Time does NOT heal all wounds, it can ease their effects, and it can reduce their impact, but the wounding still exists, as long as the memory of it exists. And I'm betting that the WS remembers the AP.....vividly.


And you would be absolutely correct. My belief does not alter reality but who determines my reality? You do not, nor I yours. Marriages break up over other issues besides infidelity. So then if every situation which causes D is permanent then R would be impossible in any circumstance and that defies factual data. Even infidelity issues have been successfully reconciled. Or perhaps you deny that as well. All issues eventually boil down to trust and commitment, the financial issue, affair partner or whatever other issue caused the breach is not the real problem. 

You discount someone's will as a formidable force but it can certainly be that. I have overcome many things in my life by my will. And you don't "will" a thought away by thinking about it but rather by forcing it from your mind until, eventually, it no longer tries to enter.

As to your last sentence, I have sat with my WS for hours and grilled her for info, after some time had passed, and watched as she wept and struggled to recall facts that I needed to process. She desperately wanted to give me what I needed so we could hopefully move forward but she could not. The whole situation repulses her now to the point of being physically sick. You may never believe that to be possible until you lose that bet.


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## TOMTEFAR (Feb 23, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> But what they gave BEFORE the marriage , wasn't mine. what they gave during the affair, was .


I didn't get that from your post. But then again we do give to others all the time. To family, our children, friends etc. Those things we keep doing and start doing during a M. I know not exactly the same but...

For me atleast I think this doesn't hold that much. For me it is the the disrespect that does it. Cheating is the most disrespectfull thing you can do to your partner, and that for me is the burning point. That together with the lies and trust issue that comes from this...


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Rookie4 said:


> Lets look at it logically. The marriage is reconciling....why? because there was an affair. The affair required three people...the WS the BS, and the AP. Therefore....the AP is involved in the marriage, and also the reconciliation. How can it be any other way?


if we are all to agree that a reconciliation can't take place until the AP Is gone than he/she isn't present during reconciliation at all. To focus on AP vs what your spouse did seems so backwards to me. From a logical standpoint I don't know how it could be seen any other way. They didn't cause the affairs, didn't force your spouse. It was your spouse who did you wrong... The AP was just a tool in that scenario. If you have an attractive wife or girlfriend their will always be men that want to screw them. A portion of these men don't care if she is married or not. It is up to the spouse to reject these advances and when they don't that's all on them.


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## Hardtohandle (Jan 10, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> But, then again, this is getting somewhat off the intent of this thread. I have come to the conclusion that there are many reasons why people reconcile, and few of them are about love. And fewer are truly honest. The idea that the AP is a part of any reconciliation is very hard to admit, and very hard to be honest about.


I read the thread when you first posted it.. Wasn't sure where you were going with it.. 

I read some more and was bit confused still, are you looking to reconcile, are you reconciling.. 

So I will talk from my experience of having reconciled with the ex wife *several times* in the past as it relates to this quote as well as the thread..

In the beginning of the reconciliation yes of course it revolves around the other man. But eventually it has to get away from this other person and about what truly happen to the wayward spouse and truly is the real crux of the problem with the marriage and the wayward.

Here is a simple reality.. Sometimes the wayward has an issue that they really can't tell you.. 

E.G. I really don't love you but you are much better than this other man.. I *THOUGHT* he was good, but now after being alone with him for a week I can see he actually isn't as good as you in X,Y, or Z so I am coming back.. That is until I find someone who is actually better in X,Y, and Z and then I am gone.. 

Which is translated at M.C. and alone at home with you as, I finally realized how much I love you. What a mistake I made and how ashamed I am of what I did.. I will spend the rest of my life working to show you how much I deserve you. 

The card I received from my Ex wife the first time around pretty much says the above. I still have it as a reminder of what a d!ck I was 13 years ago.

Followed by a lot of sex over the next several months or year and even an overall increase in sexual activity for the remainder of the marriage.. 

My or Our simple problem was my Ex wife was never fixed.. Maybe should would never be fixed.. I really don't know or have a true answer to this. There are times I wish I did.. But I eventually had to let it go *( at least for the most part )* because it was driving me nuts.. The simple why question.. 

But nonetheless, I started off with why she did or attempted to do what she did *( I caught my wife several times during EA )*. She would reassure me and the MC or therapist that she was feeling neglected by me somehow and I would change not to make her feel this way. Then it came to making changes in herself and then between the lovemaking and just getting along we just dealt with my insecurities and emotional breakdowns down the road. 

She would reassure me, take me to bed and make love to me and hug me and tell me OMG I fvcking love you so much. Then she would cry and all would be good.

Eventually you learn to internalize it because your spouse is doing good and you know you can't just keep beating him or her up every time.. You just can't keep putting them in jail for the same crime over and over again even that was never committed since the first time. 

I did the above procedure 3x in the past. The 4th time I was too late.. 19 years of marriage and issues and me putting up with her sh!t and emotional stress over these stuff gone in 90 days.. 

That is all it took.. 

Mind you I wanted to fix it yet again with her. But she didn't want to.. Its funny in a sense.. You would think the WS would be looking to fix and the BS looking to run away.. I guess she knew me better than I did myself.

But it was never that way.. I was angry but deep down I loved her regardless. I always tried to fix it with her. 

**Just broke down in tears at my desk, this stuff just brings back too many emotions sometimes**

I can't give you an answer when I let go of the other man and moved on with my life with my wife ( Ex wife ).. But I can say it was probably within a 12 month period from start to finish. Yes I always had triggers but I just sucked it up.. I never acted out on it or gave her grief over it.

My only word of advice is make sure your Wayward spouse is telling the real bottom of the heart truth.. Make sure.. Find real good therapist that will help them pull out what the real issues are. Because otherwise as they say history *WILL* repeat itself. 

I wasn't burned by the match.. I was *SCORCHED*. Her dishonesty and heartless acts in the end really hurt me emotionally and has given me some insecurities I don't ever expect to recover from. 

So my point is reconcile if you want to and feel you can, but repeated abuse will build up some scars in you that you might not recover from the next time around.


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

I struggle with the fact that she gave herself away. I somewhat understand what Rookie4 is saying that even though OM is gone he has an effect on my marriage. My marriage will now change, I have changed, and WW is changed. Had WW and OM never had an affair I would still be happy. Now I've changed in that I don't want to be around people, I'd rather be alone. I have become depressed because of WW's affair, on medication, and seeing an IC and MC. I wouldn't have to if it weren't for WW and OM. Kind of like the cause and effect theory. At nine months from d-day I would think where I'm at is normal, but in two years OM had better be not in the forefront of my memory. After five years I'm hoping I have amnesia to the OM.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

Hardtohandle said:


> I read the thread when you first posted it.. Wasn't sure where you were going with it..
> 
> I read some more and was bit confused still, are you looking to reconcile, are you reconciling..
> 
> ...


((hugs))


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

NoChoice said:


> And you would be absolutely correct. My belief does not alter reality but who determines my reality? You do not, nor I yours. Marriages break up over other issues besides infidelity. So then if every situation which causes D is permanent then R would be impossible in any circumstance and that defies factual data. Even infidelity issues have been successfully reconciled. Or perhaps you deny that as well. All issues eventually boil down to trust and commitment, the financial issue, affair partner or whatever other issue caused the breach is not the real problem.
> 
> You discount someone's will as a formidable force but it can certainly be that. I have overcome many things in my life by my will. And you don't "will" a thought away by thinking about it but rather by forcing it from your mind until, eventually, it no longer tries to enter.
> 
> As to your last sentence, I have sat with my WS for hours and grilled her for info, after some time had passed, and watched as she wept and struggled to recall facts that I needed to process. She desperately wanted to give me what I needed so we could hopefully move forward but she could not. The whole situation repulses her now to the point of being physically sick. You may never believe that to be possible until you lose that bet.


You don't get it, Nochoice, and you probably never will. I agree with most of what you have said about your WS's remorse, but like I told Bfree, I have never seen "faith" or "will" do anything, without a healthy dose of realism.


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

drifting on said:


> I struggle with the fact that she gave herself away. I somewhat understand what Rookie4 is saying that even though OM is gone he has an effect on my marriage. My marriage will now change, I have changed, and WW is changed. Had WW and OM never had an affair I would still be happy. Now I've changed in that I don't want to be around people, I'd rather be alone. I have become depressed because of WW's affair, on medication, and seeing an IC and MC. I wouldn't have to if it weren't for WW and OM. Kind of like the cause and effect theory. At nine months from d-day I would think where I'm at is normal, but in two years OM had better be not in the forefront of my memory. After five years I'm hoping I have amnesia to the OM.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I too get what he is saying in that the marriage is forever changed. That's why I have said it must begin again. The WS has to die to self and you start a relationship with a new person. NOT because of the AP but because the old S was flawed and could not move forward in a relationship until they realized it and made a change. I too went into depression and I still fight it to this day but it is better. I also took heart in reading Mr Blunt's post on here. He is a ways ahead of me and his triggers are all but nonexistent.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Wolf1974 said:


> if we are all to agree that a reconciliation can't take place until the AP Is gone than he/she isn't present during reconciliation at all. To focus on AP vs what your spouse did seems so backwards to me. From a logical standpoint I don't know how it could be seen any other way. They didn't cause the affairs, didn't force your spouse. It was your spouse who did you wrong... The AP was just a tool in that scenario. If you have an attractive wife or girlfriend their will always be men that want to screw them. A portion of these men don't care if she is married or not. It is up to the spouse to reject these advances and when they don't that's all on them.


Look, Wolf, I already know who's fault the affair was. This thread is NOT about blame. It is NOT about how important or unimportant the AP is. It is about the fact that the AP is a part of the reconciliation and he/she was a part of the marriage. I fully realize that he/she isn't a good part, or a positive influence, but he/she is going to be a part of the marriage from the first time he/she was invited into it.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

drifting on said:


> I struggle with the fact that she gave herself away. I somewhat understand what Rookie4 is saying that even though OM is gone he has an effect on my marriage. My marriage will now change, I have changed, and WW is changed. Had WW and OM never had an affair I would still be happy. Now I've changed in that I don't want to be around people, I'd rather be alone. I have become depressed because of WW's affair, on medication, and seeing an IC and MC. I wouldn't have to if it weren't for WW and OM. Kind of like the cause and effect theory. At nine months from d-day I would think where I'm at is normal, but in two years OM had better be not in the forefront of my memory. After five years I'm hoping I have amnesia to the OM.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You won't completely forget the affair and you won't completely forget the AP. It isn't possible. Yes , you can lessen the impact, and yes, the memories will fade, and yes, the AP can become insignificant,but they will never go away completely. The human mind doesn't work that way.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

NoChoice said:


> I too get what he is saying in that the marriage is forever changed. That's why I have said it must begin again. The WS has to die to self and you start a relationship with a new person. NOT because of the AP but because the old S was flawed and could not move forward in a relationship until they realized it and made a change. I too went into depression and I still fight it to this day but it is better. I also took heart in reading Mr Blunt's post on here. He is a ways ahead of me and his triggers are all but nonexistent.


If there wasn't an AP, then there wouldn't be triggers would there? Every single thing said on this thread is PREDICATED by the existence of the AP. And you say he/she isn't still around? All wounds leave scars, so even if you have healed, the reminder of the wound remains. Back to Logic. You cannot reconcile without the AP, because the AP is part of the reason you are reconciling. I understand why that is so hard to admit. It is very hard to admit that somebody came into your marriage , and changed it forever. It is very hard to admit that that person was invited into the marriage by your partner. I also know that most posters , who are attempting to reconcile, want desperately to believe that the affair is completely gone. But the effects will NEVER be gone, and the AP is part of that, so he/she will NEVER be completely gone, either. It is part of history, and history is part of you.


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> If there wasn't an AP, then there wouldn't be triggers would there? Every single thing said on this thread is PREDICATED by the existence of the AP. And you say he/she isn't still around? All wounds leave scars, so even if you have healed, the reminder of the wound remains. Back to Logic. You cannot reconcile without the AP, because the AP is part of the reason you are reconciling. I understand why that is so hard to admit. It is very hard to admit that somebody came into your marriage , and changed it forever. It is very hard to admit that that person was invited into the marriage by your partner. I also know that most posters , who are attempting to reconcile, want desperately to believe that the affair is completely gone. But the effects will NEVER be gone, and the AP is part of that, so he/she will NEVER be completely gone, either. It is part of history, and history is part of you.


Then let me posit a question Rookie. Logically, if the AP is a part of your marriage that can never go away then are they not a part of your life that can never go away. Even if you start over with a totally new person isn't the AP brought into that relationship with you as well. Doesn't his "ghost" jade all women for you from now on? If not, how do you separate him out because I want to use your same method to separate him out of my R.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> *Originally Posted by Mr Blunt*
> Rookie, when you say “…every thought, word, or deed, is made with him/her, in mind.”
> What SPECIFICALLY are you referring to?
> 
> ...






> Blunt, who said it was "all consuming"? I certainly didn't.


Well Rookie, Based upon your words, YOU DID!
When you say 



> *EVERY* decision, post affair, every thought , word , or deed, is made with him/her , in mind.


*
That is all consuming!!*






> To ignore the existence of the AP is rugsweeping.


I know that the AP exists but I do not think about him unless I have a conversation like this thread



Rookie you bring out some very interesting points and some true points. However, you are basing your positions on your 3-4 year experience. *I have no doubt that you are right for you but try to understand that you have no experience with people that R for over 20 years*

You make statements such as below



> By Rookie
> So, in my humble opinion, reconciliation is not a healthy way to live, for either the WS or BS.


I have a very healthy life and you really do not have the credibility to state that I do not. *You have never had even 10 years of R so how can you make such sweeping generalized statements as you have above?*

Your threads are usually very interesting and you definitely have your opinions but *you cannot tell me or anyone else that has many more years of R than you do that we do not have healthy lives because you do not even have 5 years of R.*


Rookie, we have had debates in the past where you and I have different positions but your threads almost always get a good discussion going. Glad you are back it was getting kind of boring without you!


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

NoChoice said:


> Then let me posit a question Rookie. Logically, if the AP is a part of your marriage that can never go away then are they not a part of your life that can never go away. Even if you start over with a totally new person isn't the AP brought into that relationship with you as well. Doesn't his "ghost" jade all women for you from now on? If not, how do you separate him out because I want to use your same method to separate him out of my R.


Absolutely. The knowledge is permanent. You don't get that I am NOT saying this cannot be something you can use in a positive manner. The knowledge that I was cheated on, and the memory of the AP will stand me in good stead, in the future. I will be warier, yet more involved, in future relationships.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Mr Blunt said:


> Well Rookie, Based upon your words, YOU DID!
> When you say
> 
> 
> ...


Blunt, I'm a free American, I can say anything I want. But...I don't care how many years you live, there will always be the AP in your life, like the scar of a wound.
BTW, Whether you and I agree, isn't important. The important thing is that we can debate without rancor.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

NoChoice said:


> Then let me posit a question Rookie. Logically, if the AP is a part of your marriage that can never go away then are they not a part of your life that can never go away. Even if you start over with a totally new person isn't the AP brought into that relationship with you as well. Doesn't his "ghost" jade all women for you from now on? If not, how do you separate him out because I want to use your same method to separate him out of my R.


You are asking the impossible. You simply cannot COMPLETELY forget, and the AP will never be COMPLETELY out of your marriage.................notice I said completely.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> I have no reason to doubt her take on the affair. It fits in with her personality , and it was so short , that I'm pretty sure she didn't get a lot of yuks out of it.


Her saying she didn't enjoy it is just another attempt to "downplay" the affair just like saying think of AP as an ex-boyfriend. Which I personally find laughable when I hear or read. Her reason to minimize it is obviously because she wants to patch thing up with you. 

Don't be such a fool, she LOVED every minute of it. The sex was illicit and therefore she defacto enjoyed the excitement at your expense. Even if it was vanilla missionary because it wasn't you, in her fogged up mind it was the best she's ever had. 

This is why you can't compete with an AP. They are put on a pedestal taller then you can ever hope to reach. You were right to dump her. Don't throw away what you have with your gf, to bring trash in you already put on the curb, back into your life.


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

To me, I don't agree that the lies and hiding facts as being worse than the physical act as suggested earlier in this thread. They are both horrible and about equal in my book but that makes us all different in how we value things


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

You like to argue alot don't you Rookie?


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

bandit.45 said:


> You like to argue alot don't you Rookie?


Depends. I like to debate an issue. But some posters cannot debate without getting all hot and bothered. Apparently a lot of people have anger management issues, just like my ex did.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

I like to get hot and bothered. Reminds me I'm still alive.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

bfree said:


> I like to get hot and bothered. Reminds me I'm still alive.


Well, there again. It depends on why I'm getting hot and bothered. Plus, there is a difference in degree, between getting hot and bothered on a website, and having a human piranha for a wife.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

*Re: Re: Three on a match.*



Rookie4 said:


> Well, there again. It depends on why I'm getting hot and bothered. Plus, there is a difference in degree, between getting hot and bothered on a website, and having a human piranha for a wife.


I know exactly what you mean. I used to have one of these. Killed every other fish in my aquarium.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Rookie4 said:


> Look, Wolf, I already know who's fault the affair was. This thread is NOT about blame. It is NOT about how important or unimportant the AP is. It is about the fact that the AP is a part of the reconciliation and he/she was a part of the marriage. I fully realize that he/she isn't a good part, or a positive influence, but he/she is going to be a part of the marriage from the first time he/she was invited into it.


Well then agree to disagree then cause I don't see how the AP has anything to do with reconciliation. 

Like a knife that cuts when the cut is done you are now left to tend to the wound. The knife has become irrelevant


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

I'm with Wolf, agree to disagree. My dad passed a little over 15 years ago and when it happened I took it pretty hard. Now, all that time later, I rarely think of him and he was very important to me. The AP was not and in all honesty, until this debate, it had not crossed my mind in quite some time. It's being replaced by more pertinent, important stuff.

I too enjoy a good debate and sometimes they end in stalemate. Still the exchange is food for the mind and helps expand our thought process:smthumbup:


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

I actually agree with Rookie on this part about the AP. 

As far as dealing with all the mess after the AP is gone, the WS must talk about what the did together, not necessarily all, but at least some. That places them squarely in the middle of the marriage, just as they decided on their own as an adult, whether they were pursued or not, to insert themselves into the middle of the marriage, good or bad. 

When a parent or loved one dies, they are no longer around. The AP is generally still alive and around. There is always a chance they could renew their affection. While it may be unlikely, it's always possible, at least in the mind of the BS. 

Kept thinking, "three on a match". Where did I hear this before? You know it's bad luck, don't you Rookie? Thanks for making me think of something else.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> Depends. I like to debate an issue. But some posters cannot debate without getting all hot and bothered. Apparently a lot of people have anger management issues, just like my ex did.


And some people like to jerk chains to get a sense of control. 

I see people here trying to help you answer your question to yourself, and all you seem to be able to do is bash them for their efforts. 

I'd like to help you Rookie, but I've gotten to the point where I really just don't give a sh!t about you or your problems anymore. 

Good luck with your lady problems.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

bandit.45 said:


> And some people like to jerk chains to get a sense of control.
> 
> I see people here trying to help you answer your question to yourself, and all you seem to be able to do is bash them for their efforts.
> 
> ...


Ok, suit yourself.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Wolf, I don't agree with you and NoChoice (for different reasons), but we each got to say our piece and debate the question, so it's all good. If everybody got something to think about, then I'm happy about that.


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## Acoa (Sep 21, 2012)

Rookie, could it be semantics you are arguing? 

To me, if the AP is "a part" of your reconciliation. Then there is still contact. Even if it's indirect and not desirable. Perhaps a mutual friend, or professional connection. 

But that's not always a case. In the best of cases, the AP is surgically dissected from the marriage. What's left is the scar. And you're right, that scar is a permanent fixture in the reconciliation. 

I just think the phrase "AP is part of the reconciliation" is not accurate. Perhaps you chose this phrase because it's bound to inflame some passionate defense?


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> Depends. I like to debate an issue. But some posters cannot debate without getting all hot and bothered. Apparently a lot of people have anger management issues, just like my ex did.


So you say.

Others let their anger come out in other ways which are just as unhealthy.....


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

My take is Rookie doesn't really know what he wants to commit to doing. I think you still love the life and woman you married, and who is no longer. As you said, she has changed. She has in more ways than one. When reconciling, we must let go of the past, once the necessary answers are submitted by her for the questions we need to find closure. 

I think you cannot believe yourself any more. You do not trust what you see and somewhere deep inside, know you will never have that dream you had, once upon a time. 

It's really tough to let go of that dream and be truly happy, carefree and satisfied. I, personally, don't think it ever happens that we go back to that feeling. Things will never be the same as they were. That's good, but to accept that, we, as BS', must accept that we played a part in the bad marriage and our unhappiness. That goes against what we believed to afford survival. 

Seeing your wife as someone who has apparently changed and become what you always wanted(my guess), and who wants you, has somehow brought the desire you never truly lost for her, to the front of your mind. Other women just don't seem to measure up to the "ghost" in your head, do they? The trouble may be, neither does your ex anymore. 

That can be very frightening, since you could be learning to trust yourself again. You'd have to accept that you cannot trust yourself because you would then have two things you based your life around and both are incorrect. That's a tough pill to swallow, so you have this nagging thought, possibly, that she will cheat again, since you have to believe you did the right thing by letting her go and doing as you needed. 

Well, that's a long winded way of saying, you can never go back, only forward. Whether you find another woman who you will love more, better, or more deeply is up to you and her. It's not easy to find the ability to open up once again and let yourself be vulnerable. You have done well so far by finding a woman who surely cares about you. You will never find that woman in your head. She never really existed. 

This is my guess Rookie. Take in the spirit it's meant. Just trying to help you think about yourself and maybe not being ready for commitment to anyone, but yourself right now. You are making good and steady progress. Hope you continue and find peace, joy and love.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

Can an experience or memory be present but have little or no significance? Isn't that the question we're really debating here?

Rookie, let me ask this question of you. Taking yourself completely out of the equation, objectively speaking would you say that cheating has had a positive effect on your exW?


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## carmen ohio (Sep 24, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> In the last two weeks or so, Sweetie and I have been having some pretty intense talks about the possibility of us re-uniting. I am adamant about not doing so . . .
> 
> Once the WS invites the AP into the marriage, he/she is there permanently. It is no longer a marriage of two persons, it is a marriage of three. It doesn't matter if the WS renounces the AP, it doesn't matter if the BS accepts the affair, it doesn't matter if the WS likes, hates or is indifferent to the AP. It doesn't even matter if the AP is alive or dead. As long as human memory exists, the AP is now an integral part of the most intimate structure of the marriage. Every decision, post affair, every thought , word , or deed, is made with him/her , in mind. Even the decision to ignore his/her presence . . .





Rookie4 said:


> . . . I'm over her . . .





2ntnuf said:


> My take is Rookie doesn't really know what he wants to commit to doing. I think you still love the life and woman you married, and who is no longer . . .
> 
> You do not trust what you see and somewhere deep inside, know you will never have that dream you had, once upon a time . . .


I'm with 2ntnuf, Rookie4.

My take is that you were hurt by your ex's infidelity more than most and, despite being emotionally strong, are having a harder time getting over it. I think it explains a lot of your comments on TAM/CWI, including your skepticism about R.

Your argument that the AP will always be present in a marriage, during and even post R, is mostly semantical. Of course, everyone who ever did us wrong is _'present'_ in our lives _'forever,'_ but only in the sense of being part of our personal history. Their actual presence is a matter of reality -- are we or is someone we care about still in contact with them; do we think about them frequently; does what they did to us still shape our decisions or otherwise affect our lives?

Part of being a healthy human being is having the ability to let go of the past and forgive those who have wronged us. I have no doubt that you will get there because you are an intelligent and honest person (albeit, somewhat annoying ).

Until then, you will continue to question.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Acoa said:


> Rookie, could it be semantics you are arguing?
> 
> To me, if the AP is "a part" of your reconciliation. Then there is still contact. Even if it's indirect and not desirable. Perhaps a mutual friend, or professional connection.
> 
> ...


No, just a healthy dose of realism. I think it's important for people who want to reconcile, to know what they are up against.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

happyman64 said:


> So you say.
> 
> Others let their anger come out in other ways which are just as unhealthy.....


Well, my wife's expressions of anger were about as unhealthy as you can get.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> My take is Rookie doesn't really know what he wants to commit to doing. I think you still love the life and woman you married, and who is no longer. As you said, she has changed. She has in more ways than one. When reconciling, we must let go of the past, once the necessary answers are submitted by her for the questions we need to find closure.
> 
> I think you cannot believe yourself any more. You do not trust what you see and somewhere deep inside, know you will never have that dream you had, once upon a time.
> 
> ...


I appreciate this post, but feel that you have it the "wrong end , foremost". The only people I can trust in this mess, is myself and to a lesser degree, my GF. See,2ntnuf, a part of the reason I started the thread is that I had tought that when Sweetie and I broke up, for good, that she was OK with it, and was able to move on. Well, subsequent events show that she has not been able to "get over me" and is still carrying a fairly large torch. I feel sorry for her, and want to help her accept that we are not going to be a couple anymore, so I'm researching reconciliation stories and books and sites to help me, help her.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

bfree said:


> Can an experience or memory be present but have little or no significance? Isn't that the question we're really debating here?
> 
> Rookie, let me ask this question of you. Taking yourself completely out of the equation, objectively speaking would you say that cheating has had a positive effect on your exW?


If you mean that by hitting rock bottom, you have nowhere to go but up. I think so.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

carmen ohio said:


> I'm with 2ntnuf, Rookie4.
> 
> My take is that you were hurt by your ex's infidelity more than most and, despite being emotionally strong, are having a harder time getting over it. I think it explains a lot of your comments on TAM/CWI, including your skepticism about R.
> 
> ...


See my response to 2ntnuf.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

One of the issues Sweetie mentioned is that she feels "tainted" by the AP's touch. She also feels that I feel this way. I don't, and tried to prove it to her, when we were trying to reconcile. The feeling that she isn't worthy.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

*Re: Re: Three on a match.*



Rookie4 said:


> If you mean that by hitting rock bottom, you have nowhere to go but up. I think so.


Well I was thinking more in terms of her using the crisis as a motivation for change. You mentioned she had anger issues. You said she has improved herself immeasurably since D-day. So is it fair to say in the context of the theme of this thread that in her case the AP's continued presence has had a beneficial effect on your exW?


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

Rookie4 said:


> I appreciate this post, but feel that you have it the "wrong end , foremost". The only people I can trust in this mess, is myself and to a lesser degree, my GF. See,2ntnuf, a part of the reason I started the thread is that I had tought that when Sweetie and I broke up, for good, that she was OK with it, and was able to move on. Well, subsequent events show that she has not been able to "get over me" and is still carrying a fairly large torch. I feel sorry for her, and want to help her accept that we are not going to be a couple anymore, so I'm researching reconciliation stories and books and sites to help me, help her.


If it's over, then why research reconciliation ? Why not research overcoming a failed marriage or divorce ?


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

bfree said:


> Well I was thinking more in terms of her using the crisis as a motivation for change. You mentioned she had anger issues. You said she has improved herself immeasurably since D-day. So is it fair to say in the context of the theme of this thread that in her case the AP's continued presence has had a beneficial effect on your exW?


That's what I Meant. I think that there is an AP is a secondary form of motivation. Her primary motivation is losing me, #1, losing her family#2, Losing her integrity#3, the AP is a reminder of this.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

wmn1 said:


> If it's over, then why research reconciliation ? Why not research overcoming a failed marriage or divorce ?


I do both, because I've been through both. Divorce and attempted R..


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## Roselyn (Sep 19, 2010)

Rookie4 said:


> One of the issues Sweetie mentioned is that she feels "tainted" by the AP's touch. She also feels that I feel this way. I don't, and tried to prove it to her, when we were trying to reconcile. The feeling that she isn't worthy.


Do you or do you not want to reconcile with your wife? Clarify your position Rookie. You are angry with your wife's act of infidelity and then defend her. You have a girlfriend (whom you have sex with) and defend your cheating wife. You give your wife a name "Sweetie". There's nothing sweet about a cheating spouse. Are you dangling your girlfriend? Have you chosen where to go in this relationship.

I am a woman and married for ongoing 35 years. I have a very straight and upfront husband. If I stray, I'm sure that he would not take any nonsense and will divorce me. I would do likewise if my husband cheats on me. We both know the high price of cheating. Men and women cheat because they know they can on their spouse; forgiveness is on the table or no consequence. 

You say that you like to debate. You are definitely argumentative. You are giving a conflicting picture on where you are going with your situation. The posters need clarification as to where your position is in this marriage; go or stay.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Roselyn said:


> Do you or do you not want to reconcile with your wife? Clarify your position Rookie. You are angry with your wife's act of infidelity and then defend her. You have a girlfriend (whom you have sex with) and defend your cheating wife. You give your wife a name "Sweetie". There's nothing sweet about a cheating spouse. Are you dangling your girlfriend? Have you chosen where to go in this relationship.
> 
> I am a woman and married for ongoing 35 years. I have a very straight and upfront husband. If I stray, I'm sure that he would not take any nonsense and will divorce me. I would do likewise if my husband cheats on me. We both know the high price of cheating. Men and women cheat because they know they can on their spouse; forgiveness is on the table or no consequence.
> 
> You say that you like to debate. You are definitely argumentative. You are giving a conflicting picture on where you are going with your situation. The posters need clarification as to where your position is in this marriage; go or stay.


Before you criticize, you should probably know my story. You haven't been on TAM to know what happened a couple of years ago. Read my past posts. The nickname " Sweetie " originally was a joke, and refered to her earlier anger issues, and is sarcastic, it became a good name , after she learned to control them.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> I appreciate this post, but feel that you have it the "wrong end , foremost". The only people I can trust in this mess, is myself and to a lesser degree, my GF. See,2ntnuf, a part of the reason I started the thread is that I had tought that when Sweetie and I broke up, for good, that she was OK with it, and was able to move on. Well, subsequent events show that she has not been able to "get over me" and is still carrying a fairly large torch. I feel sorry for her, and want to help her accept that we are not going to be a couple anymore, so I'm researching reconciliation stories and books and sites to help me, help her.


She is no longer your responsibility. Anything you do to insert yourself into her life will only prolong her agony. Tell her to see a counselor and then stay far away. She needs professional help.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> She is no longer your responsibility. Anything you do to insert yourself into her life will only prolong her agony. Tell her to see a counselor and then stay far away. She needs professional help.


She is getting it, 2ntnuf. It was the situation after her accident , that forced it to the front burner. I think that once she is fully recovered, I can disengage more fully. Keeping in mind, that because we have kids, I'm never going to be able to completely disengage. She and I will see each other for family events, probably forever. My biggest hope is that she finds somebody new. So far, the guys she has dated have been duds. Pisses me off.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> She is getting it, 2ntnuf. It was the situation after her accident , that forced it to the front burner. I think that once she is fully recovered, I can disengage more fully. Keeping in mind, that because we have kids, I'm never going to be able to completely disengage. She and I will see each other for family events, probably forever. My biggest hope is that she finds somebody new. So far, the guys she has dated have been duds. Pisses me off.


So what's up with this woman in your life right now? The one you are dating? She is great, but...what?


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Geez Louise, I want to hear about OTHER people and THEIR situations. I already KNOW mine. I try to answer every poster, but I want to ask some of the questions.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> So what's up with this woman in your life right now? The one you are dating? She is great, but...what?


No ... buts, at all. She is the one I'm keeping.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> No ... buts, at all. She is the one I'm keeping.


Glad you found her.  Don't worry about seeing the ex. It's her problem how she handles things. It's pretty simple handling those encounters. When you want to see the family for holidays, you will find a way. It won't matter if it's a different day or if you just invite them to your house, because you will want to see them without the ex being around. You don't have to invite her to anything. 

You do understand that there is no longer a family represented by you, your ex, and the children? It's you and your children. It's her and your children. It's not her and you and your children. Deal with her through the courts when you must. That's it. She is no longer anything to you.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> Glad you found her.  Don't worry about seeing the ex. It's her problem how she handles things. It's pretty simple handling those encounters. When you want to see the family for holidays, you will find a way. It won't matter if it's a different day or if you just invite them to your house, because you will want to see them without the ex being around. You don't have to invite her to anything.
> 
> You do understand that there is no longer a family represented by you, your ex, and the children? It's you and your children. It's her and your children. It's not her and you and your children. Deal with her through the courts when you must. That's it. She is no longer anything to you.


I agree that most of the time, it's possible to have separate events, but not always. Like the birth of grandbabies and birthdays, and events that are beyond my control ( planned by other family members) That I'm obliged to attend. We are a large extended family, so it's inevitable that there will be some contact.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Rookie,

Reconciliation with Sweetie would be like buying property on land adjacent to Florida swamp. Thoughts of the OM are like mosquitoes and snakes, but the real problem is that it won't support a foundation.

You dwell on Sweetie because it is hard for you to accept that she is not loved or wanted by a worthy man. 

You know that she really tried to make it up to you. Her two years of living alone and celibate were wasted. You wish that you could make her happy. You can't.

The OM is just a buzzing annoyance to you now.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> I agree that most of the time, it's possible to have separate events, but not always. Like the birth of grandbabies and birthdays, and events that are beyond my control ( planned by other family members) That I'm obliged to attend. We are a large extended family, so it's inevitable that there will be some contact.


How old are your children? I thought they were in grade school?

Anyway, there will be few of those. None that you have to attend if things are really that bad. When she becomes overbearing, you can tell her you'd rather not pretend and cause her to think you may be interested in her. 

It's your choice. You are not forced to do a thing. Relatives will understand if you must explain. If they don't, you don't need them in your life. They will only cause you difficulties. You can just be respectful in your explanation. 

Rookie, don't look for issues. There will be enough that come without you worrying before they come on their own. Be happy with the woman you have now. Don't let your ex and what if's cause problems.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> By Rookie
> I have often wondered why it is so hard for the BS to forgive, and why it is so hard for the WS to relate, and why it is so hard for BOTH, to reconcile.


Your first question of “why it is so hard for the BS to forgive” can be answered a hundred ways.

One answer is that when one has been hurt deeply they want revenge (Justice?) and have resentments because they have been so wronged. One solution to that is to accept that you have been shyt on, forget justice, accept the losses that are temporary or permanent, let go of the revenge and/or resentments, and have faith that you are going to get better and gain in other areas. Then you have to make the choices and take the actions that bring those to competition. *THAT IS EXTREMELY HARD!!!*




> “Why it is so hard for the WS to relate and why it is so hard for BOTH, to reconcile.”


My guess is that your are asking this because your ex-wife does not want to accept that you are not going to go back to her. Will the reason that she wants to reconcile is that:



> *“The feeling that she isn't worthy.”
> “Her primary motivation is losing me, #1, losing her family#2, Losing her integrity#3…”*


She wants to get all those back. She maybe can get her worth and integrity back but according to your posts she will not get you or the family back that included you.

Rookie, you seem to care for and have forgiven your ex-wife but because of her previous actions and the AP you are not going to restore her to her previous relationship with you. I have chosen a different path and have taken my wife back and restored her to her previous position in the family. *We have both forgiven our wives and we have BOTH taken the correct actions for our situations.*


*Your story can serve as a reminder that infidelity does have serious and permanent consequences!*


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> How old are your children? I thought they were in grade school?
> 
> Anyway, there will be few of those. None that you have to attend if things are really that bad. When she becomes overbearing, you can tell her you'd rather not pretend and cause her to think you may be interested in her.
> 
> ...


No, 2ntnuf, my kids are grown up (although they act like they're in grade school , sometimes)


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Mr Blunt said:


> Your first question of “why it is so hard for the BS to forgive” can be answered a hundred ways.
> 
> One answer is that when one has been hurt deeply they want revenge (Justice?) and have resentments because they have been so wronged. One solution to that is to accept that you have been shyt on, forget justice, accept the losses that are temporary or permanent, let go of the revenge and/or resentments, and have faith that you are going to get better and gain in other areas. Then you have to make the choices and take the actions that bring those to competition. *THAT IS EXTREMELY HARD!!!*Truth be told, I DO still love Sweetie, as a friend and as the mother of my children. But I have no romantic feelings for her, at all. I feel sorry that she hasn't been able to get over me, in the same way, and really hope that she finds somebody .
> 
> ...


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> One of the issues Sweetie mentioned is that she feels "tainted" by the AP's touch. She also feels that I feel this way. I don't, and tried to prove it to her, when we were trying to reconcile. The feeling that she isn't worthy.


But don't you think since the reconciliation failed that sweetie feels "unworthy"???


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

And another point to ponder. If sweetie changed herself and made all theses improvements with the end goal of getting back with rookie will it all unravel now?


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

happyman64 said:


> But don't you think since the reconciliation failed that sweetie feels "unworthy"???


I think HM is making a key point. Sweetie really tried to reconcile. She did about as good a job as a wayward could. It failed. You don't love her anymore. Okay, you care about her a lot as person. You replaced her sexually, but she is still the mother of your children and a big part of your life.

Now you are pretty happy. You wish she could be happy. But she wants affirmation in the form of a renewed marriage to you. Even being your common-law wife would be good enough. But all you have to offer is kindness. It will never be enough to restore her self esteem.

She needs to move on. Her life may go down the tubes. The car accident is just another stone on her chest. But if she becomes a ruined person, that is just reality. You cannot take her back if you don't want her anymore.

Bad things can happen to good people.

I don't think the OM is so central to your lives today. Sweetie doesn't think about sex with him. She only wants you. You don't want her.


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## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

Rookie4 said:


> Perhaps, if you are talking about every day decisions, like taking out the trash or what to have for dinner. But every IMPORTANT or intimate decision, the AP will have some kind of influence on.


I agree with Rookie. Infidelity is the bell you cannot unring. The bullet that cannot be unfired. The wounds may heal and stop bleeding but the scar will always be there as a reminder for the rest of your life.

Some folks can deal with it and some can not.


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## Juicer (May 2, 2012)

First Rookie, I will disagree with you that reconciliation/new relationship is not healthy for the BS and WS. 
I will admit that I had outside influences after the divorce that led to my life spiraling out of control, and my health deteriorating. I could have eventually gotten my life back in order, and gotten my health back on track, and most likely be where I am today. 
The main difference, is I am happier with the SO than if I was alone. 

As for your current problem with the XW, You need to have a very frank conversation with her. (and I've had this conversation, and no, it isn't easy)
You need to sit her down, and first tell her, you can't believe the progress she has made. She is a better person all around. And you are happy for her. 
But that you are not going to change your mind. You care (do NOT use the word love) for her as a mother of your children, but you do not want to be romantically involved. 
And you tell her you want her to move on. She'll make some man very lucky because she has learned several of life's hardest lessons, even though it was the hard way. 
And that you want her to be happy. 

She'll probably cry, and ask why it can't happen again, and beg, and it won't be a pleasant conversation. 
But it is a conversation you need to have with her. 
She needs to know you want her to be happy, but you can't be the man that will do that for her. 

And be 110% sure, you want it this way. 
I am the luckiest man alive my SO choose to ignore me when I told her this. But I wasn't dating or going out. Your XW may not be as stubborn as mine. 
And sometimes seeing them dating can be a very difficult pill to swallow.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

happyman64 said:


> But don't you think since the reconciliation failed that sweetie feels "unworthy"???


Happyman, to you and Bfree, Juicer and others, this is the tightrope I'm walking. I don't want her as my wife, but I wouldn't do anything to "undo" all that she has accomplished, and see her live unhappily. We have had several talks about it, and I THINK that she is OK, but I've thought that before.


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

Rookie, you do not control your WX. You did not cause her personal issues, and telling her the truth about your feelings will not "cause" her to unravel, anymore than you're behavior pre-A, caused her to cheat. She is a grown woman who is responsible for her conduct. You owe it to her to treat her that way.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Pluto2 said:


> Rookie, you do not control your WX. You did not cause her personal issues, and telling her the truth about your feelings will not "cause" her to unravel, anymore than you're behavior pre-A, caused her to cheat. She is a grown woman who is responsible for her conduct. You owe it to her to treat her that way.


I understand that, Pluto, but that doesn't mean that I cannot help her to a better life, does it?


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## allwillbewell (Dec 13, 2012)

Rookie,

I am confused:

You say you are in love with GF, who has seen you thru a Reconciliation attempt, divorce and continued contact with a cheating Ex W because of your need to "help" your Ex W with her emotional life after divorce and the necessity of family duty.

As many previous posters have pointed out, GF must be an incredible woman to put up with all that and stay with you.

On the other hand, you express platonic love for and feeling of responsibility you feel for the ExW who cheated on you to begin the whole drama. You express the need to remain in her life to help her fix the very consequences she created when she chose to cheat.

Do I have that correctly? 

Spoiler Alert! The following may be considered harsh but is meant well.

Is it at all possible that you get off on the attention BOTH women are giving you? That you secretly enjoy the drama and neediness that unfolds as you continue to convince yourself that you OWE something to your Ex? And choose to remain involved in her life beyond the absolute minimum of shared family events? 

No offense but something just doesn't smell right here and I respectfully suggest that it is your GF who should be holding her nose. While I would never judge the motives of your GF(bless her heart!), if any one else posted these same circumstances from her perspective as a CWI post(as YOU have described them, yourself), what you continue to give your ExW beyond your duty to your children would be called an Emotional Affair With EXW and you would be labeled at best ambivalent, at worst a cheater.


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

5 reasons I oppose reconciliation

1) You will always have that feeling of doubt or keep the other person on a leash if you will ( a well earned one) so you will never be free.
2) If one reconciles, at times, the other person, the cheater, fails to realize the consequences of their actions
3) Foregoing other opportunities. Rather than existing in a state of walking around with a crutch, one could be free to find someone new and exciting
4) Ulterior motives on the behalf of the WW. What has changed ? Why has it changed ? and are you a cuckold ?
5) In this case, either the GF is going to lose patience with this or will be in a situation where they will leave once they realize they have an opportunity with someone who will give them 100% which you won't be able to provide once you do a R.

These are the reasons why I couldn't R in your situation. I agree with NoChoice here that you can provide support to the ex without R.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

allwillbewell said:


> Rookie,
> 
> I am confused:
> 
> ...


No, you do NOT have it right. The reconciliation attempt happened 2 1/2 years AFTER the divorce. And Also, During the R attempt, I broke up with my GF. I hate passive-aggressive posts. You say no offense, then go on to be offensive. I don't Owe my ex wife sh*t, nor do I "need" continued contact with her, above family matters. However, I owe it to myself to do what I feel is right. Which is help a friend (which is what my ex wife is now). My GF is the very best, but I have done nothing to be ashamed of, in any way. Everything I've done has been up front and open to all.


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## allwillbewell (Dec 13, 2012)

Ok thanks for the clarification. Sorry for offending.

Absolutely nothing wrong with an amicable relationship with an ex wife for the sake of the kids but your willingness to involve yourself in her life to the level you describe is simply inviting way more hurt and misunderstanding for both the ex wife and GF. Being upfront and open about it may justify it for you but that is really beside the point.


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

Rookie, I understand your desire to be supportive. Allwillbewell raises a sticky point. If GF came on this forum and described the emotional involvement of her BF has with the exW, most here would advise her to run as fast as she could. I get that you are open and honest with GF, but that wouldn't change my concerns. How many times are BS advised to detach from the ex? Feel free to reject my advice and concerns.


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## BobSimmons (Mar 2, 2013)

Pluto2 said:


> Rookie, I understand your desire to be supportive. Allwillbewell raises a sticky point. If GF came on this forum and described the emotional involvement of her BF has with the exW, most here would advise her to run as fast as she could. I get that you are open and honest with GF, but that wouldn't change my concerns. How many times are BS advised to detach from the ex? Feel free to reject my advice and concerns.


I second this. 

How many of us would absolutely go to town if a man came on here and said his girlfriend loved him but felt a duty to help the father of her children as a friend even though the ex wanted reconciliation?

It's always sticky when children are involved because that bond between the two is something the girlfriend cannot come in between, all she can do is be understanding. If the ex cannot respect her ex present girlfriend, as well as his decision not to R, then surely the care of duty should be firmly placed towards the girlfriend because the ex wife is no longer a friend of the relationship, but someone seeking to come in between them?


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## commonsenseisn't (Aug 13, 2014)

Rookie

I've watched your threads and the many thought provoking comments. I can see some of the turmoil you face and it occurs to me that there comes a point where you just need to commit to a decision, own it, and then live with it. It's ok that you've entertained options about your ex, but you shouldn't do it more than necessary. 

You've gone through a lot of mental/emotional gymnastics about your situation and for your sake you'll need to end it by choosing a path and sticking with it. Otherwise you'll be stuck in a sort of limbo that's preventing you from moving on in a healthy way. 

If you choose the non reconciliation route I'd advise you to adopt a policy of minimal contact with your ex so you can move on. I'd especially advise you to abandon the idea that you would like to help her to become a better person. This idea just keeps thrusting you back into limbo hell by allowing her to engage you.

Either way, move on as soon as you can. Don't torment yourself by endlessly entertaining thoughts of what can never be. Good luck.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

allwillbewell said:


> Ok thanks for the clarification. Sorry for offending.
> 
> Absolutely nothing wrong with an amicable relationship with an ex wife for the sake of the kids but your willingness to involve yourself in her life to the level you describe is simply inviting way more hurt and misunderstanding for both the ex wife and GF. Being upfront and open about it may justify it for you but that is really beside the point.


I think that one thing that needs clarification, is that I invited NONE of this. I have always tried to maintain a a correct, friendly , and distant relationship with my Ex. I have never sought her out, engaged in conversation, nor offered advice, except when asked to do so. The recent brouhaha was brought about by her auto accident, which called for me and the kids, to help her in her recovery. She took my willingness to help as an indication of renewed interest, until I made it clear that it was NOT.


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

Rookie4 said:


> I think that one thing that needs clarification, is that I invited NONE of this. I have always tried to maintain a a correct, friendly , and distant relationship with my Ex. I have never sought her out, engaged in conversation, nor offered advice, except when asked to do so. The recent brouhaha was brought about by her auto accident, which called for me and the kids, to help her in her recovery. She took my willingness to help as an indication of renewed interest, until I made it clear that it was NOT.


You still seem to be mulling over the what if's with vigor. Multiple threads on this board about potential R. From this vantage point, your perceived level of detachment from you ex may not be accurate.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Pluto2 said:


> You still seem to be mulling over the what if's with vigor. Multiple threads on this board about potential R. From this vantage point, your perceived level of detachment from you ex may not be accurate.


Well, Pluto, you are, of course, entitled to your opinion, wrong though it may be. My threads aren't about any potential R for me, but to warn others about the pitfalls that seem to be abundant for anyone trying to R.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> *Originally Posted by Pluto2*
> You still seem to be mulling over the what if's with vigor. Multiple threads on this board about potential R. From this vantage point, your perceived level of detachment from you ex may not be accurate.
> 
> *By Rookie*
> Well, Pluto, you are, of course, entitled to your opinion, wrong though it may be. My threads aren't about any potential R for me, but to warn others about the pitfalls that seem to be abundant for anyone trying to R


*I see no reason to doubt Rookie’s level of attachment as he has described below:*



> By Rookie
> Truth be told, I DO still love Sweetie, as a friend and as the mother of my children. But I have no romantic feelings for her, at all. I feel sorry that she hasn't been able to get over me, in the same way, and really hope that she finds someb


ody.


On the issue of reconciliation, Rookie’s statement below is correct for some but not for all.



> By Rookie
> So, in my humble opinion, reconciliation is not a healthy way to live, for either the WS or BS.


Rookie sees things from his own experience and he is correct on some things. However, Rookie sometimes makes some general statements that include experiences that he has not experienced. Rookie has not lived reconciliation for 2 years or more much less 10-20 years. *For him reconciliation is not a healthy way to live but he is wrong about others such as B1 and EI, Mr. and Mrs. John Adams, Wazza, me, and many more*.

However, Rookie’s threads usually are very interesting!


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Mr Blunt said:


> *I see no reason to doubt Rookie’s level of attachment as he has described below:*
> 
> ody.
> 
> ...


I would never presume to make statements about your particular reconciliation, Blunt, but the other ones you mentioned, have had some serious issues, lasting several years, and some issues that are still present. These issues , they have talked about on TAM, so I'm not disclosing any secrets.
Bottom line is that I am a problem solver. I will work hard, and sacrifice much to achieve a certain goal or goals. But I also know when a problem is not worth the effort . And I feel that, in most cases, reconciliation is one of those types of problems that are most effected by the law of diminishing returns.
Using my own situation, so as to not presume on other posters. Suppose I had decided to R? In the end, what would I have? A patched together marriage, that satisfied everybody , but the one person who deserved to be satisfied the most, the BS. Me. For make no mistake, the BS is the one who will inevitably have to eat the sh*t sandwich, by deciding to R. And also live with the aftermath (read AP's presence). Plus.... simply put.....I do NOT believe that any BS can ever look at their WS with the same amount of love , as before the A. Many BS's and WS's will say it, but I don't believe it. I, quite frankly, don't want to live like that.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Actually, we are (including myself) getting somewhat off topic. We are now talking general reconciliation, when I originally started the thread to assess the influence of the AP in the M and R.
So, lets get back to logic. The WS invited the AP into the marriage, therefore the AP has a presence in it. The R is caused by the A, of which the AP is one of the participants. Therefore, the AP is also involved in the R. It then flows, that the decisions made during the R (NC, setting boundaries, transparency, etc) are made because the AP exists. Why would these measures be taken, otherwise?


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

Rookie4 said:


> I would never presume to make statements about your particular reconciliation, Blunt, but the other ones you mentioned, have had some serious issues, lasting several years, and some issues that are still present. These issues , they have talked about on TAM, so I'm not disclosing any secrets.
> Bottom line is that I am a problem solver. I will work hard, and sacrifice much to achieve a certain goal or goals. But I also know when a problem is not worth the effort . And I feel that, in most cases, reconciliation is one of those types of problems that are most effected by the law of diminishing returns.
> Using my own situation, so as to not presume on other posters. Suppose I had decided to R? In the end, what would I have? A patched together marriage, that satisfied everybody , but the one person who deserved to be satisfied the most, the BS. Me. For make no mistake, the BS is the one who will inevitably have to eat the sh*t sandwich, by deciding to R. And also live with the aftermath (read AP's presence). Plus.... simply put.....I do NOT believe that any BS can ever look at their WS with the same amount of love , as before the A. Many BS's and WS's will say it, but I don't believe it. I, quite frankly, don't want to live like that.



very well said, Rookie. I agree 100%


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## Hardtohandle (Jan 10, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> Actually, we are (including myself) getting somewhat off topic. We are now talking general reconciliation, when I originally started the thread to assess the influence of the AP in the M and R.
> So, lets get back to logic. The WS invited the AP into the marriage, therefore the AP has a presence in it. The R is caused by the A, of which the AP is one of the participants. Therefore, the AP is also involved in the R. It then flows, that the decisions made during the R (NC, setting boundaries, transparency, etc) are made because the AP exists. Why would these measures be taken, otherwise?


Rookie you can't analyze this sh!t.. Its emotions.. Either it is there or it isn't.. Its a leap of faith that YOU and only YOU can take.. ONLY YOU know her not us.. 

I can tell you if my ex wife wanted me back and just told me she was leaving I would consider taking her back.. 

But her leaving the home every other night to go fvck this other man for 4 months after she told me she was leaving pretty much sealed the deal that she thought I was a piece of sh!t.. Its not the affair that closed the door on my Ex wife, it is how she left.. She treated me like trash. Like I committed affairs and cheated on her or abused her in some way that I deserved this treatment.. Yes like several here I fell into a role of a kid playing video games.. But she never complained.. She just did this.. I would have never, ever continued doing what I was doing if it bothered her and she complained or commented about it.. Again she never did..

I admit my shortcomings and have learned not to do these sorts of things in my new relationship.. 

But this is my reason why I wouldn't reconcile.. 

You can analyze this till you're blue in the face. The problem is as was said here, you revealed a few things about yourself that just don't shine a great light on you.. You have this G.F. but then are discussing reconciliation with your Ex.. I am sure there is more than just talking going on and more than what your saying between you and your Ex and I am positive your not telling your G.F. the whole truth.. You like having both.. You need this security blanket.. 

Reconciliation is *EXTREMELY HARD*.... Its rehashing this stuff over again and reliving in the moments of the past and then trying to figure out what went wrong and how to fix it.. But the simple reality is your EX might not know what really went wrong. She might say anything to fix this for her to be with you. But at the end of the day she still might cheat on you again because the original real problem was never uncovered and/or fixed.. 

This is the chance YOU have to take... You, You, You.. No one else.. 

No one here has a clue WTF your Ex wife is thinking.. Its is obvious you don't either.. 

But you at a minimum come off bitter and a bit d0uchie posting someone else's pic and then say you can smile in a picture but be faking it..

You're too defensive and cannot accept criticism well from us and we are just going on what you're saying.. Try to believe me when I say its not us.. It's you.. How are you gonna deal with counseling and therapy ? 

You know eventually you will have to let this other man go from your head.. You can't do 3 years of MC or therapy and still beat your Ex wife up over it.. You know that right ? Eventually you will have to eat those triggers for the sake of your marriage and relationship because it will just be all in your head and expressing issues about this other man 3 years from now is just gonna look like your plain crazy to your ex wife.. 

Stop attacking everyone that disagrees with you and points out some things you don't like.. 

Look there are times I express myself poorly when I type. I get the wrong point across and people comment on it.. Then I come back and say Sh!t I didn't express myself well enough her.. I think try to re-explain.. Sometimes people tell me, no HTH I get it.. But you don't.. Sometimes I hate to admit it but they are right.. 

Simple example.. I dated too soon, I got into a relationship too soon. It caused me issues I didn't need in my relationship.. Issues I brought into the relationship.. People seen it and called me out on it.. The therapist seen it and called me out on it..

End result I took the stance the therapist did.. This is what I have and I have to deal with it.. I won't break up with my G.F. because I love her and she stood by me through the most lowest times I have ever been with. I treated my G.F. like a piece of sh!t and did things I would knock the sh!t out of someone if I seen them treat a women like this.. It happen months ago and I am still embarrassed by it.. I thank god or whomever my kids will never see me like that. I would be the most disappointing thing they ever seen and is with my ex wife abandoning one of my kids.. 

I didn't touch my G.F., but I yelled and screamed.. It was enough, trust me.. She was scared sh!tless. How could I do something like that to someone I love so much.. 

But my point is that is the sh!t we all deal with and decide to deal with.. Only ME and my G.F. can make these choices.. Everyone can give me advice to cut her loose or how to fix it.. But in the end I make the choice of what I want to do with my relationship with her and she makes her own choices.. I am lucky to have someone who understands crazy and see's the better man in me.

End result there are enough threads why or why not to.. There are enough opinions and stories of success and failure during reconciliation for you to know the pitfalls and what to look out for..

Sh!t or get off the pot.. Take her back and cut your G.F. loose or move on with your life and this G.F. that has taken some sh!t from you that many women wouldn't.. 

BTW no matter who you date, you will have some sort of problems and issues with.. No one you find is gonna be perfect..


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Hardtohandle said:


> Rookie you can't analyze this sh!t.. Its emotions.. Either it is there or it isn't.. Its a leap of faith that YOU and only YOU can take.. ONLY YOU know her not us..
> 
> I can tell you if my ex wife wanted me back and just told me she was leaving I would consider taking her back..
> 
> ...


Curious, that those posters who claim I'm attacking somebody, only do so by attacking me, themselves. 
Hardtohandle, I was with you, and was willing ti discus your concerns, up to and until you started calling me a liar and a cheater and began making assumptions about my situation that a truly honest and helpful poster would never make. If you want to discus, we can do it, but I won't bother , if you are going to attack me.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Mr Blunt said:


> *I see no reason to doubt Rookie’s level of attachment as he has described below:*
> 
> ody.
> 
> ...


But I do agree, Blunt that I would like to hear what some of the longer Reconciled posters, have to say. Mr. And Mrs. Adams , I believe are the longest term couple , aren't they?


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> By Rookie
> So, in my humble opinion, reconciliation is not a healthy way to live, for either the WS or BS.
> 
> Rookie sees things from his own experience and he is correct on some things. However, Rookie sometimes makes some general statements that include experiences that he has not experienced. Rookie has not lived reconciliation for 2 years or more much less 10-20 years. For him reconciliation is not a healthy way to live but he is wrong about others such as B1 and EI, Mr. and Mrs. John Adams, Wazza, me, and many more.
> ...


*But Rookie,mi amigo, you did make statements about my particular situation as well as others. Here is the statement below*



> By Rookie
> *So, in my humble opinion, reconciliation is not a healthy way to live, for either the WS or BS*.







> By Rookie
> But I do agree, Blunt that I would like to hear what some of the longer Reconciled posters, have to say. Mr. And Mrs. Adams , I believe are the longest term couple , aren't they?


As far as I know, yes, Mr. and Mrs. Adams are the longest term couple having 30 years of R. Myself and Wazza have over 20 years.




Rookie, I am going to comment on your statement below that you have mentioned in other ways more than once. This seems to be a significate issue for you.


> By Rookie
> It's the idea that my ex gave a part of herself to somebody else, and that cannot ever be undone. So a part of her isn't mine anymore.



For me that is true also so I will try to be specific. I believed that my wife would rather die than betray me. She thought and said that I was “Mr. Wonderful” and adored me. I was naïve and bought into the utopian idealism of marriage so the betrayal was a shock to say the least. Your are right, her betrayal cannot be undone and the naive idealistic admiration that I had of her is not mine anymore!







> By Rookie
> What I'm more interested in is HOW do people who are attempting to R, "let go" of the AP's presence.


The AP’s presence is irrelevant and a non-issue in the sense that I think about him, he triggers me, or I have any feelings for him. So there is nothing to let go of as I have described. Now, if you want to talk about me letting go of my naïve idealistic admiration of my wife in the area of her steadfast determined loyalty to the point of her dying instead of ever betraying me; then that is a different issue.

How do I let go of her free will decisions is that I make adjustments in my thinking and attitude. I no longer believe that 99% of the people on this earth are like that idealistic position in that someone would rather die than to betray you. That is now just too much of a fantasy for me. It still hurts when she does something selfish and does not consider me (Rare and not betrayal) because I have not completely let go of that fantasy that I know is not within the capability of 99% of humans. *However, for me, dong R for over 20 years is a healthier way to live than to throw away all the other qualities that she has and the other benefits that come from staying with my children’s mother.*

I know that every one is different but you asked me HOW I let go. I have given you one way which is my attitude and thinking.* I have a very good and healthy life for over 20 years and have a great relationship with my children, grandchildren and the rest of my family. *


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Mr Blunt said:


> *But Rookie,mi amigo, you did make statements about my particular situation as well as others. Here is the statement below*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There is a lot right with your post, Blunt, but it starts out wrong. My statement was a general one and not specific to your R. If you felt it was, then I'm sorry for it, but such was not my intention.
When I talk about the AP's presence, I'm not being literal, but refering to the decisions that all people in R have to make, on account of the AP and affair. That is why I said that it does not matter even if the AP is dead, nor does it matter if you or the WS think of him/her or trigger because of him/her. But, I'm betting that most if not all decisions you have taken during your reconciliation , were taken , BECAUSE he exists or existed. Like the odor of stinky cheese, he/she is still around. That odor may dissipate, but is never completely gone.


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

FWIW, I believe Mrs. John Adams was perma-banned.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

I would also like to say, although it is a bit off topic, that I recognize that some WS's have good qualities that might make R a positive decision. For example, EI and her devotion to and love of, her family, probably had a HUGE influence on their decision to R. As, I'm sure , your own good wife has.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Pluto2 said:


> FWIW, I believe Mrs. John Adams was perma-banned.


Really? I thought she was a wonderful poster, and very informative. What was she banned for? Hmmmm, that's too bad.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Thanks to all posters for their contributions, especially to those who related their stories about how they dealt with this issue.


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