# Fighting through the embarrassment...first post!



## clouded_3953 (Oct 30, 2013)

Not sure where to begin! I am going to attempt to make this short but I want to share my whole story which is YEARS of insanity. I apologize in advance, I tried to keep it organized. 

I am very embarrassed about how I allowed my life to end up and wish everyday since discovering TAM that I had it years ago. 

I have been married to my husband for 9 years. We met in youth group and started “dating” when I was 15. I was pregnant at 16 and had our son at 17. At 20 I had our daughter. We married a year later. 
Before we were married he cheated on me a couple times but being young and naive I thought by getting married he would stop. We also got back into church which also made me believe that he would change his ways. 

Well...it did not, as I'm sure you all assumed. I am going to do my best and try to remember everything but its a lot.
About 6-12months into marriage he met up with a woman from his past to receive oral sex. 

He met someone at his job and went to her house. Supposedly only kissed and talked on the phone until I caught him. 

He sent and received dirty pics from a friend of mine who is married to his friend (from church)

He sent and received pics from a co-worker of mine who I brought to our house a few times. (big mistake)

He brought a woman to our home, while I was gone for the weekend, and had sex with her in our basement. They worked together.

He text/talked to a woman he worked with at his second job. Supposedly only kissed her while at work but never met up with her. She was married too.

These incidences happened within the first 4 years of our marriage. I’m sure there are more but I cant remember or just not aware of them.

The more serious stuff starter about 5 years into marriage. (as if the other things weren’t serious) 
While he was laid off of work, he helped coach my sons school basketball team. He cheated on me with a mom from the team. I found out by looking at phone records...I think he thought I didn’t look anymore since he started using a secret email. This situation was one of the more devastating ones because even after Dday he continued to see and talked to her but lied the whole time about it. 
I’ve noticed after reading this forum for the past month, that this is not unusual. 

He started working for a cell phone company where he was able to do all he wanted though his work phone and delete the evidence since I cant view the phone records. And what made things even worse was that the store he worked at was in the mall. 

Things were really bad at this point. I felt like I was going crazy, and I was! I had spent the past years being a detective and it was just getting out of control. But instead of leaving, ( I gave every excuse I’ve seen on TAM, even the fact that he may be a sex addict) we went to MC and I sought out a sex addict counselor for him to see. This really broke the bank but I told myself it was worth it if he got help.


While in counseling he, yet again, cheated. I found out of 2 PA and at least 5 EA. They were all with customers. If someone would give him a compliment or flirt, he couldn’t control himself...no boundaries. He would text them and it went from there. 
The only reason I found out about any of this was because I had a gut feeling (always the reason I find anything) and began investigating. I was able to create and online account with his work phone (he obviously didn’t know that could be done with the company phone) and saw all the phone records. I couldn’t believe it....there were at least 5 woman he was texting (sending pics to) all at the same time. 

I again...like every other time, threatened divorce and did nothing. Every time he did this and I found out (because he NEVER, EVER confessed) he lied for weeks, adding little detail each week. 
He acted “remorseful” for about 3 weeks each time, until he got tired of the questions and thought I needed to be over it and let it go. He would always be transparent and I thought I knew every password he had until he just became more and more secretive. 

Meanwhile, I was getting more and more CRAZY!!!! Numb, depressed, bitter...begining to lose myself.
One thing I will never understand is that ALL of the woman he has these affairs with are not attractive at all. Though my self esteem and self worth is gone, I am a good looking woman. 

I would also like to include that about a year after marriage and about 3 affairs in, I cheated on him. As screwed up as this is, I wanted to hurt him and this was my justification. I told him about the affair about a month after it happened as I could not live with myself. I don’t understand how he could live with such a horrible secrets, let alone many secrets...it was eating me alive. He was hurt but wanted to work things out as he could then see what he had put me through. Except...he continued and I couldn’t do it again if I wanted. The feeling was BEYOND horrible. 

October last year I reached my end. I left because he wouldn’t. I didn’t take the kids as I was trying to make things as comfortable as possible for them. I now have an apartment but the kids still stay with him most of the time. I only have a 2 bedroom and they have their own rooms and everything at the house. I go there everyday after work and cook dinner, make lunches..etc and put them to bed if he has a late night at work. I also go to the house just about every morning to help them get ready for school and take them to school. 

This past year has been a nightmare. I left hoping that it would be a wake up call and that he would really change. Nope, it wasn’t and he hasn’t. I found out that he starting seeing someone. I still do crazy detective things because I know he will never be honest and tell the truth. I'm sure that I am somewhat addicted to living that way since I did for so long. 
I started seeing someone after I realized he probably wasn’t going to change. I have been seeing this person for almost a year and STILL cant bring myself to divorce. 

One month ago my husband supposedly hit rock bottom and tells me that he cant live this way anymore and needs to change his life. He asked me to stop talking to my BF or file. He says he cut all of the people off that he was talking to and stopped watching porn. I feel so torn and I feel crazy for even feeling torn. My husband is all that I know and for some reason, after all this, I cant imagine the future without him and our family not being whole. 

About a month ago is when I discovered this web sight, realizing my life is completely out of control. 
After years of pain its hard for me to express my feelings...actually, I don’t even know how I feel most of the time. I started going to IT about 3 weeks ago.

I fear that my husband will change and if I divorce him another woman will get to experience that. Even after reading TAM everyday for the past month, I still wonder if its possible for him to change. I fear making the wrong decision. 

The other day I emailed my husband pages and pages of things that stuck out to me on TAM. Things about remorse and serial cheaters and just feelings of other people that I haven’t been able to express to him. I want him to understand what he did to me because I know he doesn’t. Should I not do this?.

I know this is a mess and appreciate any insight!


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

He is a serial cheater and won't change. The next woman he decides to be with will go through everything that you are going through, so have no fear that you are handing over a reformed prize to some lucky lady.

You started out very young and the two of you know no other way together. You can't know when you're 16 what you or anybody else will be like as a mature adult. At best, you're making an educated guess. Now you know for sure what you've got and it's lying and betrayal and not a care in the world that he hurts you deeply.

Keep the bf and get that divorce.


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## JohnC_depressed (Dec 6, 2012)

what alte dame says. So sorry.


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## verpin zal (Feb 23, 2013)

Your husband's affairs are never your fault, so no need to be embarrassed.


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

Yeah, this is about him, not you. If you're church-goers then have you brought this up with your pastor or elders? The Bible allows for divorce in cases of infidelity.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

PLan ahead, get a bigger home so you can keep taking care of your kids... just not at his house.


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## Thound (Jan 20, 2013)

He see plan B moving on and he can't stand it. Go ahead and proudly divorce his sorry azz. Oh and the idea the new woman will get the benefit of the new and improved hubby will never materialize, because he will not change unti he can't get it up any more.


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

This is not good at all. I would move back home, wait a month or so and file for D.

What the heck is your church doing or saying about this?


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

He is in evolutionary biology an real champion.

For you that means he is spending his resources on having sex with other women, you need to protect yourself.


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## harrybrown (May 22, 2013)

Has he been tested for stds? Or did he tell you he always used protection?


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## clouded_3953 (Oct 30, 2013)

alte Dame said:


> He is a serial cheater and won't change. The next woman he decides to be with will go through everything that you are going through, so have no fear that you are handing over a reformed prize to some lucky lady.
> 
> You started out very young and the two of you know no other way together. You can't know when you're 16 what you or anybody else will be like as a mature adult. At best, you're making an educated guess. Now you know for sure what you've got and it's lying and betrayal and not a care in the world that he hurts you deeply.
> 
> Keep the bf and get that divorce.


Thank you for taking the time to reply...means a lot!! I have to focus on the fact the he is a serial cheater and dont look back! Its hard to get over the thought of feeling like I wasnt enough for him to change. Especially knowing that no woman would ever stick by him as long as I did, healthy or not.


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## clouded_3953 (Oct 30, 2013)

verpin zal said:


> Your husband's affairs are never your fault, so no need to be embarrassed.


I know that in my head but some times I battle with it. I am more so embarrassed because I allowed him to hurt me. After coming to TAM, I see that I enabled him to crush me and I still stayed. And the fact that I still, to this this day, am confused as what to do, is really sad. I am embarrassed that I have absolutely no self worth to see that I deserve so much better. I still let him manipulate me...he told me the other day that if I don’t stop talking to my BF that Id be choosing him over our family.


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## MovingAhead (Dec 27, 2012)

clouded_3953 said:


> I know that in my head but some times I battle with it. I am more so embarrassed because I allowed him to hurt me. After coming to TAM, I see that I enabled him to crush me and I still stayed. And the fact that I still, to this this day, am confused as what to do, is really sad. I am embarrassed that I have absolutely no self worth to see that I deserve so much better. I still let him manipulate me...he told me the other day that if I don’t stop talking to my BF that Id be choosing him over our family.


Sister, your mind is clouded. It isn't that you were not enough for him to change. That is not it at all. Please remember that you are a beautiful woman and deserve someone who was meant for you.

His ability 'to change' is a character flaw in him. You cannot change him. He has to change himself. It is ultimately your decision, but it seems a little late for him to change if you ask me. He has gotten away with his awful behavior for some time and it doesn't seem like his behavior is going to change.

I think you really should focus on yourself. Take a look at who you are and who you were meant to be. I believe in may ways he is holding you back. You are trying to please him, and honestly he is just not worth it at this point. Be strong sister and God bless.


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## clouded_3953 (Oct 30, 2013)

sandc said:


> Yeah, this is about him, not you. If you're church-goers then have you brought this up with your pastor or elders? The Bible allows for divorce in cases of infidelity.


Yes, we have brought it to our pastor. The church we were members of when he cheated with a woman that went to this church, we no longer attend. I was too hurt by the way they handled the situation. He was on the praise team with her and I wanted him to step down...he should not be leading praise with these issues, nor should he be in a dept with a woman he cheated with, but they didn’t ask him to step down. I felt it was brushed under the carpet and I couldn’t even stand going there anymore. We did start going to another church and received a little help but I feel like they have kinda washed their hands of my H because he keeps my the same decisions. I know that Biblically I can divorce but emotionally its extremely difficult for my to think about...I wish more then anything that I felt ok about going through with it!


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## clouded_3953 (Oct 30, 2013)

Thorburn said:


> This is not good at all. I would move back home, wait a month or so and file for D.
> 
> What the heck is your church doing or saying about this?


Not opposing this idea at all, but can you help me understand, what would the benefits of moving back home be?
As far as the church, we no longer attend church. Honestly, after leaving last year I have become angry at God. I know that H's actions are not Gods fault but I sought out his direction in trying to help my H. I tried to be as supportive as I could while dealing with my own pain. It got me no where...just betrayal after betrayal.


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## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

I agree with all that has already been said. He's not likely to change ever. You had a really toxic situation brewing there for a marriage. If you were to go back to him he'd likely return to his patterns of serial cheating before you unpacked your bags. 

Let him move on. Stop worrying about him focus on yourself and your kids. You deserve much better than this. Keep doing what you were doing you'll keep getting more of what you got before. There is nothing to save. If divorce is unthinkable for you, then make peace with this being the rest of your life. Sorry, I just don't see anything to fight for.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

clouded_3953 said:


> I am embarrassed that I have absolutely no self worth to see that I deserve so much better. I still let him manipulate me...he told me the other day that if I don’t stop talking to my BF that Id be choosing him over our family.


Try to start understanding that your family is your children and yourself. You are not choosing the bf over your children. You are choosing the bf over your relentlessly disrespectful, unfaithful, unloving WH, who, by the way, will no longer be able to claim to be part of your family in any way if you have the strength to do the right thing and divorce him.


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## clouded_3953 (Oct 30, 2013)

harrybrown said:


> Has he been tested for stds? Or did he tell you he always used protection?


He was never tested. I was every time I fought out about a PA. He did give me something about 3yrs ago and has never been remorseful for it. I think he thinks its not a big deal. I actually told a woman he slept with around the time I found out that she now had it. He denied it to her though. He has been tested recently but I haven’t had sex with him in about 7mo. I know he never used/uses protection...he's way to selfish for that!!!


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## punkinhead (Mar 19, 2013)

Clouded,

I'm so sorry that you're here and so sorry that you've suffered so much betrayal and hurt at the hands of the person who is supposed to love you the most. Your story is so similar to mine.... married for 18 years to my high school sweetheart. Mine also cheated for years and crossed every possible boundary and I chose to close my eyes and not see it because he's all I've ever known.

I've been separated for a year and have filed for Divorce and I just want to let you know it does get better. YOU didn't betray your family and you didn't choose over your family - your husband is the one who did that! If your new BF makes you happy and treats you the way you deserve to be treated, please let yourself enjoy it and stop feeling the guilt. You only get one life - stop wasting yours on someone who mistreats you. Wishing you all the best!


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## clouded_3953 (Oct 30, 2013)

MovingAhead said:


> Sister, your mind is clouded. It isn't that you were not enough for him to change. That is not it at all. Please remember that you are a beautiful woman and deserve someone who was meant for you.
> 
> His ability 'to change' is a character flaw in him. You cannot change him. He has to change himself. It is ultimately your decision, but it seems a little late for him to change if you ask me. He has gotten away with his awful behavior for some time and it doesn't seem like his behavior is going to change.
> 
> I think you really should focus on yourself. Take a look at who you are and who you were meant to be. I believe in may ways he is holding you back. You are trying to please him, and honestly he is just not worth it at this point. Be strong sister and God bless.



Thank you!! I really needed this! 
Yes, I am trying to please him because thats what I have done for sooooo many years. Also, a part of me feels guilty for walking away from someone I know is lost without me. Not my fault...I do know that but still hard.


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## clouded_3953 (Oct 30, 2013)

kristin2349 said:


> I agree with all that has already been said. He's not likely to change ever. You had a really toxic situation brewing there for a marriage. If you were to go back to him he'd likely return to his patterns of serial cheating before you unpacked your bags.
> 
> Let him move on. Stop worrying about him focus on yourself and your kids. You deserve much better than this. Keep doing what you were doing you'll keep getting more of what you got before. There is nothing to save. If divorce is unthinkable for you, then make peace with this being the rest of your life. Sorry, I just don't see anything to fight for.


Thank you Kristin! I have never focused on me...ever!! This will be difficult because its foreign to me but I know it needs to be done!


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## MovingAhead (Dec 27, 2012)

clouded_3953 said:


> Thank you!! I really needed this!
> Yes, I am trying to please him because thats what I have done for sooooo many years. Also, a part of me feels guilty for walking away from someone I know is lost without me. Not my fault...I do know that but still hard.


In a healthy relationship, there is give and take and people support one another. Your husband is a parasite. He takes from you but does not give you what you need in return.

It is ok to not want to have your life sucked out of you. When I went through my Dday, I sat down and wrote out on a piece of paper who I wanted to be and what I wanted to do with my life and I got started on it. Figure out who you want to be and get started. Things will get better for you. Focus on the positive.


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## clouded_3953 (Oct 30, 2013)

punkinhead said:


> Clouded,
> 
> I'm so sorry that you're here and so sorry that you've suffered so much betrayal and hurt at the hands of the person who is supposed to love you the most. Your story is so similar to mine.... married for 18 years to my high school sweetheart. Mine also cheated for years and crossed every possible boundary and I chose to close my eyes and not see it because he's all I've ever known.
> 
> I've been separated for a year and have filed for Divorce and I just want to let you know it does get better. YOU didn't betray your family and you didn't choose over your family - your husband is the one who did that! If your new BF makes you happy and treats you the way you deserve to be treated, please let yourself enjoy it and stop feeling the guilt. You only get one life - stop wasting yours on someone who mistreats you. Wishing you all the best!


Thank you punkinhead. I know I am not the only one who has been betrayed but I feel that I am the only woman who would EVER give so many chances. Only to get hurt over and over and over again!!! And yet to still hear "please..I will change this time. I love you and I will never hurt you again. Just give me one more chance."...blah, blah, blah. Its almost sicken for me to think about. It is somewhat comforting to know that I am not alone!


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## punkinhead (Mar 19, 2013)

clouded_3953 said:


> I know I am not the only one who has been betrayed but I feel that I am the only woman who would EVER give so many chances. Only to get hurt over and over and over again!!! And yet to still hear "please..I will change this time. I love you and I will never hurt you again. Just give me one more chance."...blah, blah, blah. Its almost sicken for me to think about. It is somewhat comforting to know that I am not alone!


One more thing I'd like to mention - there is no need to feel embarrassed that you gave so many chances. It speaks to the fact that you feel love deeply and that you possess hope. It doesn't make you weak - it just means that you tried your hardest. 

There's nothing wrong with giving your marriage your all, and there's also nothing wrong with finally recognizing that you've done all you can. You can now move on with a clear conscience, knowing that there's nothing more you could do.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

clouded_3953 said:


> Not opposing this idea at all, but can you help me understand, what would the benefits of moving back home be?


It would be to establish it back as YOUR home so that when you file for divorce, HE will move out. The kids need you there.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

clouded_3953 said:


> Thank you!! I really needed this!
> Yes, I am trying to please him because thats what I have done for sooooo many years. Also, a part of me feels guilty for walking away from someone I know is lost without me. Not my fault...I do know that but still hard.


He wouldn't be lost without you if he had kept his pants zipped. This is on HIM. This is HIS consequence. 

And no, the 'next woman' will NOT get a new and improved man in him.

You, on the other hand, can go out and see that the world has a lot more to offer than a serial cheater who just keeps the family on the side.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

clouded_3953 said:


> Thank you Kristin! I have never focused on me...ever!! This will be difficult because its foreign to me but I know it needs to be done!


It needs to done for you...and for your kids. THEY need to see a strong mother who respects herself too much to be a doormat, so that THEY can grow up not to be doormats (or cheaters).


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## clouded_3953 (Oct 30, 2013)

I do have question though. Mine and H's relationship is very up and down. I snap at him all the time knowing I can just go home and not deal with him. I know that he still thinks I will be coming home, its just a matter of time. He questions me about what Im doing or if I will be with my bf. He gets really upset when I bring up D. I try not to question him but when I do I want to see if he will just be honest. He never is! I do still check his emails (the ones I know of)...im assuming its because I’m obsessed. 
We do have lunch together once in a while. We take the kids to church together sometimes and go to dinner with them. Most of our time spent together is doing things with the kids, bowling, movies, dinner, etc. I like them to still have some normalcy especially since most of the time we can be civil. I’m sure this will change once I pursue D.
Does anyone have thoughts about this? Should it end? Is it ok to do things with the kids?


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## clouded_3953 (Oct 30, 2013)

turnera said:


> It would be to establish it back as YOUR home so that when you file for divorce, HE will move out. The kids need you there.


Oh, I see. Thank you! The biggest problem I have with being at that house is that he had sex with another woman in "our" home. We dont own it, we/he rents it from a friend of the family so Im not sure if that would make a difference in my going back or not. I agree, my kids need me and its killing me not being there. I hate when they say they dont want to stay with me because they want to sleep in their beds. I just say ok and put them to bed in their beds. This is not their fault and I try to make things as comfortable as I can for them.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Sorry, but I can't justify you moving out and being away from your kids just because he had sex there. Sleep with your kids, or throw the bed out or something. He needs to leave.


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## clouded_3953 (Oct 30, 2013)

turnera said:


> It needs to done for you...and for your kids. THEY need to see a strong mother who respects herself too much to be a doormat, so that THEY can grow up not to be doormats (or cheaters).


True! I asked my son the other day if he blames me for leaving. He said no, but I do think they feel that way somewhat. I also asked him if he thinks that cheating is grounds for leaving. He said no. That made me sad but I also know that a 13yr old boy doesnt know the vows a H and W take before God.


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## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

IMO you are going to need to take some time to get your head on straight. Spending limited time in a civil way with him and your children can be BUT you are going to have to watch your behavior and his! He is not going to rest and let you go. He will work to seduce you back. You have to see him for the pathetic manipulating liar he is and keep him at a safe distance.


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## clouded_3953 (Oct 30, 2013)

turnera said:


> Sorry, but I can't justify you moving out and being away from your kids just because he had sex there. Sleep with your kids, or throw the bed out or something. He needs to leave.


Thank you! So do you think I should move back in with the it being well known to him that he will be leaving?


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

The detaching is very hard. If the house is impossible for you because your WH defiled it, then you need to put your thinking cap on and find a way to get the children's beds in a place that you are living in. That should be a goal. It's also another step away from your WH.

You should be working hard to look forward and away from him emotionally. Try the 180:

The Healing Heart: The 180

If you can follow the 180, you will find that the separation gradually gets easier.


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

clouded_3953 said:


> Yes, we have brought it to our pastor. The church we were members of when he cheated with a woman that went to this church, we no longer attend. I was too hurt by the way they handled the situation. He was on the praise team with her and I wanted him to step down...he should not be leading praise with these issues, nor should he be in a dept with a woman he cheated with, but they didn’t ask him to step down. I felt it was brushed under the carpet and I couldn’t even stand going there anymore. We did start going to another church and received a little help but I feel like they have kinda washed their hands of my H because he keeps my the same decisions. I know that Biblically I can divorce but emotionally its extremely difficult for my to think about...I wish more then anything that I felt ok about going through with it!


Never, EVER return to that church. But church is where you need to be. I know you feel like God let you down, but maybe He's just trying to force you out of a bad situation. You're not leaving voluntarily so He's turning up the heat.

This POS that you are clinging to is not the only man in the world capable of being with you. Free yourself so that the man who is capable of loving you can find you. He is out there. 

One of our pastors is married to a woman who divorced her first husband because of serial infidelity. The longer she clung to her ex, the longer she had to wait for the man that truly loves her. She is very happy now.


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## clouded_3953 (Oct 30, 2013)

kristin2349 said:


> IMO you are going to need to take some time to get your head on straight. Spending limited time in a civil way with him and your children can be BUT you are going to have to watch your behavior and his! He is not going to rest and let you go. He will work to seduce you back. You have to see him for the pathetic manipulating liar he is and keep him at a safe distance.


I will def have to keep thinking that over and over because he is such a good manipulator. Thats what he has done for our entire marriage! Honestly, when he tries to hug me and says I just need you back...I do hug him back to keep peace but he knows I really dont want to. Most of what I do is to keep peace. My car and phone are in his name and he threatens to take the car and turn my phone off.


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## clouded_3953 (Oct 30, 2013)

alte Dame said:


> The detaching is very hard. If the house is impossible for you because your WH defiled it, then you need to put your thinking cap on and find a way to get the children's beds in a place that you are living in. That should be a goal. It's also another step away from your WH.
> 
> You should be working hard to look forward and away from him emotionally. Try the 180:
> 
> ...


Thank you Dame! Detaching is the hardest thing ever, he is all that I know. Is it possible to be addicted to him? As I am reading everyones responses and I telling myself, you can do this...in the same thought I am thinking, nooooo, how can you? You will lose...blah, blah...even though in my heart I know that I will not lose, but gain!


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## clouded_3953 (Oct 30, 2013)

sandc said:


> Never, EVER return to that church. But church is where you need to be. I know you feel like God let you down, but maybe He's just trying to force you out of a bad situation. You're not leaving voluntarily so He's turning up the heat.
> 
> This POS that you are clinging to is not the only man in the world capable of being with you. Free yourself so that the man who is capable of loving you can find you. He is out there.
> 
> One of our pastors is married to a woman who divorced her first husband because of serial infidelity. The longer she clung to her ex, the longer she had to wait for the man that truly loves her. She is very happy now.


WOW!!! You are so right! Thank you sandc! Whats crazy to me is that with all he has done, the last time we tried MC after I left, the counselors were saying I just needed to forgive and go back home. This is confussing for me because though I am not living the path I know God designed for me, I still hear those voices saying that the "right" thing to do would be to forgive and give him another chance...only with Gods help.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

The first thing you need to do is see a lawyer to learn what your rights are. I doubt he can pull the plug on you financially. But you may need to be living back at home first; ask the lawyer.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

And please don't go back to a church counselor. Find a real one who actually went to 9 or 10 years of college to be one (psychologist).


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## clouded_3953 (Oct 30, 2013)

turnera said:


> The first thing you need to do is see a lawyer to learn what your rights are. I doubt he can pull the plug on you financially. But you may need to be living back at home first; ask the lawyer.


I will look into that. I am struggling so bad right now financially but I know this needs to be done. This is one of my exuses for not taking any action.


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## clouded_3953 (Oct 30, 2013)

michzz said:


> Consult with a lawyer and get enough of a child support and spousal support agreement in place so that you can have room for the kids.
> 
> This marriage is over.


Thank you! I also dont want to screw him over...as crazy as that sounds. He didnt care about screwing me!


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

clouded_3953 said:


> WOW!!! You are so right! Thank you sandc! Whats crazy to me is that with all he has done, the last time we tried MC after I left, the counselors were saying I just needed to forgive and go back home. This is confussing for me because though I am not living the path I know God designed for me, I still hear those voices saying that the "right" thing to do would be to forgive and give him another chance...only with Gods help.


Here's the thing most Christian councilors forget... forgiveness does not mean a penalty is not paid. Yes, you should forgive your husband. Forgiveness is for you, not him. It will help YOU in the long run to forgive your husband. HOWEVER, that does not mean he does not pay the penalty. The penalty is losing you, possibly the best thing he will ever have in his life.

Pray, ask God to help you though this, ask Him to show you His will in this situation. Expect amazing things.


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## clouded_3953 (Oct 30, 2013)

sandc said:


> Here's the thing most Christian councilors forget... forgiveness does not mean a penalty is not paid. Yes, you should forgive your husband. Forgiveness is for you, not him. It will help YOU in the long run to forgive your husband. HOWEVER, that does not mean he does not pay the penalty. The penalty is losing you, possibly the best thing he will ever have in his life.
> 
> Pray, ask God to help you though this, ask Him to show you His will in this situation. Expect amazing things.


Yes! I hadnt thought of it this way but you are right again! Especially since I always hear "all things are possible"...but he has proven that he doesnt want to change.


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## In_The_Wind (Feb 17, 2012)

Sorry You here Yes you are so right If Nothing Changes Nothing Changes. Take care of yourself maybe start exercising or working out, and also take care of your children. Do things for you and your kids No One can really tell you what to do however If a good friend of yours told you the exact same story as your thread what would be your advice to them ??? Do that and hold your head up high !!!


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

clouded_3953 said:


> Not sure where to begin! I am going to attempt to make this short but I want to share my whole story which is YEARS of insanity. I apologize in advance, I tried to keep it organized.
> 
> I am very embarrassed about how I allowed my life to end up and wish everyday since discovering TAM that I had it years ago.
> 
> ...


Unfortunately serial cheaters can change...temporarily. 

Your H will see his mistakes and own them for a while. Things will get better, you'll rebuild some trust and just when you think things are actually better....he'll cheat again.

It could be self-sabotage, or feeling confident that there won't be any consequences, but that's what happens with serial cheaters.


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## clouded_3953 (Oct 30, 2013)

In_The_Wind said:


> Sorry You here Yes you are so right If Nothing Changes Nothing Changes. Take care of yourself maybe start exercising or working out, and also take care of your children. Do things for you and your kids No One can really tell you what to do however If a good friend of yours told you the exact same story as your thread what would be your advice to them ??? Do that and hold your head up high !!!


Thank you wild! Working out will be a good thing for me, much better then what I have been doing!!!


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## clouded_3953 (Oct 30, 2013)

Dad&Hubby said:


> Unfortunately serial cheaters can change...temporarily.
> 
> Your H will see his mistakes and own them for a while. Things will get better, you'll rebuild some trust and just when you think things are actually better....he'll cheat again.
> 
> It could be self-sabotage, or feeling confident that there won't be any consequences, but that's what happens with serial cheaters.


Thank you dad&hubby! Why is this?? I’m trying to understand how someone could live this way...forever!! I guess the way I’m trying to see it, and please correct me if I’m wrong, but alcoholics can became sober and never drink again, correct? I have watched my uncle never sip alcohol since I can remember. Why is it that serial cheaters can't change...forever? It's not at all that I don't believe when people say that, I just cant wrap my head around it. Is it that they are sicker??


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

It's because cheating is a choice to be selfish at the expense of others. It's part of your personality, not a disease. I know several guys who just think since they're a guy, they 'get' to still go out and get as much on the side as the women will allow, despite being married. You don't change that. It's what you believe.


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## clouded_3953 (Oct 30, 2013)

turnera said:


> It's because cheating is a choice to be selfish at the expense of others. It's part of your personality, not a disease. I know several guys who just think since they're a guy, they 'get' to still go out and get as much on the side as the women will allow, despite being married. You don't change that. It's what you believe.


Thank you for the insight...still absolutely crazy especially since most know they need to change and know they have a problem! UGH!!


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

I have been a minister and a chaplain for many years. I gave up my ordination last year. I have been doing ministry full or part time since 1985. I got burned bad over the years. Then my wife's affairs with "Christians". I stopped attending church. Just started again for the first time in years a few weeks ago.

In 1999 my pastor told me my wife's affairs was my fault. If my wife got caught shop lifting it would be my fault as the "man" of the house. Go figure.

The best counselor I had in 2010 was a pastoral counselor. He told me my wife would do it again, he never met my wife. He was right. And my Christian counselors over the past two years were great. So it all depends on their experience and training.

Romans 8:28. And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

I clinged to this verse in early 2013. I started the process to D my wife. She repented and came to Christ. 

And yes you will have to forgive your husband at some point, but it does not mean you don't divorce him, nor does forgiveness require you to take him back. 

You move back into the house, you can't legally kick him out, but moving back shows that you did not abandon the home in a divorce.

I have been in churches that had some whacky ways of dealing with crap. Often times it has to do with legal issues. I have been in leadership in churches where legality took precedence over doing the right thing. In one issue I was threatened with a law suit for doing the right thing, fortunately the guy (an adulterer) dropped it (he was also a minister), because we would have lost the law suit. Talk about things getting turned upside down. Some churches have gotten burnt and therefor let things go. Still is not right but it is the state of things today.

I would recommend filing for divorce. Biblically you have a right to do so. 

The XOM who my wife had an affair with, one month prior to meeting my wife online had posted on his Facebook that he renewed his faith in Christ and the devil ruled his life for over 30 years. Right, a month later he is cheating on his wife.


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## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

clouded_3953 said:


> Thank you wild! Working out will be a good thing for me, much better then what I have been doing!!!


Yes, to the working out!!! I started lifting weights with a personal trainer (not to get bulky or anything) just wanted to stay toned. It helps me literally work out my stress it feels good to just work out until I'm exhausted. Now I'm all toned and have little lines showing off my muscles! It made me feel stronger. Do it, try lots of different things. I take yoga too. Love it.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

clouded_3953 said:


> Thank you for the insight...still absolutely crazy especially since most *know they need to change *and know they have a problem! UGH!!


The only reason such a guy ever 'knows' they need to change is if the wife catches them and they have to look contrite. Don't believe for a second that they 'know' they need to change - they just know they have to SAY it to get the wife to shut up.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

clouded_3953 said:


> Thank you for the insight...still absolutely crazy especially since most know they need to change and know they have a problem! UGH!!


Actually, they don't know or think they have problems and should change. What they think is that human beings are not naturally monogamous and that society puts artificial constraints on us when it decides we should be faithful. 

Serial cheaters think that they actually have it right and the rest of us are in denial. So they don't think the problem is with them. They think it's with this 'false, superficial' notion of fidelity, which for them flies in the face of our natural urges to reproduce as widely as possible.

Biologists will tell you that it seems likely that the urge to be monogamous is just as biological as the urge to have multiple partners, so the serial cheater is looking at only one aspect of our genetic make-up in this regard.

Turnera is right, in my opinion. He won't change because this is how he thinks. It's engrained and elemental to his personality. He can't imagine himself otherwise.

The thing is, OP, just as he thinks it's natural for him to 'spread his seed,' he thinks it's natural for him to covet you as his 'woman.' This means that it will drive him crazy to have you be with another man. He won't see the hypocrisy in this because he no doubt believes that there are organic differences between men and women and this falls into a category of major difference. For him it won't be cognitive dissonance; it will be the natural order of things.


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

clouded_3953 said:


> Thank you dad&hubby! Why is this?? I’m trying to understand how someone could live this way...forever!! I guess the way I’m trying to see it, and please correct me if I’m wrong, but alcoholics can became sober and never drink again, correct? I have watched my uncle never sip alcohol since I can remember. Why is it that serial cheaters can't change...forever? It's not at all that I don't believe when people say that, I just cant wrap my head around it. Is it that they are sicker??


Alcoholics change because they WANT to. Serial cheaters can change IF they want to. Trouble is they have to want to.


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## clouded_3953 (Oct 30, 2013)

Thorburn said:


> I have been a minister and a chaplain for many years. I gave up my ordination last year. I have been doing ministry full or part time since 1985. I got burned bad over the years. Then my wife's affairs with "Christians". I stopped attending church. Just started again for the first time in years a few weeks ago.
> 
> In 1999 my pastor told me my wife's affairs was my fault. If my wife got caught shop lifting it would be my fault as the "man" of the house. Go figure.
> 
> ...


Thank you so much for taking to respond to my story!


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## clouded_3953 (Oct 30, 2013)

clouded_3953 said:


> Thank you so much for taking to respond to my story!


Thorburn...I asked you some questions within your post but I obviously didnt do it correctly!


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## clouded_3953 (Oct 30, 2013)

alte Dame said:


> Actually, they don't know or think they have problems and should change. What they think is that human beings are not naturally monogamous and that society puts artificial constraints on us when it decides we should be faithful.
> 
> Serial cheaters think that they actually have it right and the rest of us are in denial. So they don't think the problem is with them. They think it's with this 'false, superficial' notion of fidelity, which for them flies in the face of our natural urges to reproduce as widely as possible.
> 
> ...


Oh my!!! Thats way deeper then I have EVER begin to look at this! So you are saying that no matter how many times he 'says' he knows he needs to change and that knows he has a problem and that he hates who he is, that he cant live like this and that he doesnt want our son to be the person he is, and that he hates himself every time he hurts me. All these things and much more are not really how he feels or thinks?


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

The fact that religion was big part of your life makes him a hypocrite of the first order. Since he sought a leading role in church – the praise group – while actively violating the 10 Commandments, words mean nothing to him. Public opinion means nothing to him either. Your anger and disappointment mean nothing to him either.

If you think back to all the years that you have known him, I think you will recall all sorts of dishonesty and cynicism on this part, not just with respect to marriage but to property and social relations.

Does he says good things about friends, family, relatives and colleagues? I'll bet he does not. He likes to talk about how bad people get away with playing tricks. He is probably dishonest towards his employers. His character is bad. He is probably a bully to boot.

You don't have to move back to your marital home since it is just rental property. However, you need a mediator to secure good terms of divorce.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

IDK. I grew up around guys. I've always worked with guys. At least in my experience, getting it is just what they do. It's part of them as much as breathing. And some of them feel that marriage shouldn't get in the way of that. Cos they are entitled to get it any way, any time, they can. They DO compartmentalize that from 'loving' their wife.


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## clouded_3953 (Oct 30, 2013)

sandc said:


> Alcoholics change because they WANT to. Serial cheaters can change IF they want to. Trouble is they have to want to.


And this is, from reading the responses, very, very unlikely for a serial cheater, even when they lose everything. As you can see, Im having a really hard time with this!!! An internal battle is going on right now. And its not that I don't believe what everyone is saying, I do...just have been in an emotionally destructive marriage for ALL of my teenage/adult life!


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

Take time to process it all. This is not a decision you have to make tonight. Just keep praying and asking God to show you his will. I like the Roman's passage that Thornburn quoted to you and I'll add to that with Jeremiah 29:11-13 

"I know the plans that I have for you, declares the LORD. They are plans for peace and not disaster, plans to give you a future filled with hope. Then you will call to me. You will come and pray to me, and I will hear you. When you look for me, you will find me. When you wholeheartedly seek me, I will let you find me, declares the LORD." 
(God's Word Translation)


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

clouded_3953 said:


> ... Im having a really hard time with this!!! An internal battle is going on right now. And its not that I don't believe what everyone is saying, I do...just have been in an emotionally destructive marriage for ALL of my teenage/adult life!


Me, too, I'm sorry to say. A similar story. We were childhood friends, high school sweethearts, and he turned out to be a serial cheater. The one major difference is that, while I was willing to try to reconcile after what I thought was his one affair and spent nearly 3 years in a rather hellish (false) R, I left him and filed for divorce when I found out he was actually a serial cheater. Actually, finding out he was a serial cheater was something of a relief, because suddenly the way he'd treated me for our entire marriage suddenly made sense. I finally realized that I _wasn't_ crazy, he _was_ inappropriate and untrustworthy, and I _could_ find a way to live without someone who held me in such open contempt. 

I get that it's so incredibly hard to imagine life without him. He is literally all you know. But you have GOT to find a way to dredge up your backbone and leave. Or resign yourself to this being your marriage from here on out. Because. He. Will. Never. Change.

I'm sorry but he just won't. Serial cheaters almost never do. It's because they think they're entitled to have both the loving wife and happy family at home _and_ the extra women on the side. It's not that he's "sick", but rather that his character is defective. He does not mind hurting you. He does not really value you. He does not respect you. What he's been doing all these years is his version of love. Has it felt like love to you? Or has it felt like a long, slow, repetitive torture that has broken you down so slowly you almost didn't notice it was happening? 

Yes, he will promise to change. Yes, he will say all the right things. No, he will not actually ever be different. He doesn't actually want to be different. He just wants you to shut up about it and go back to keeping his life comfortable. 

I'm so sorry.


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## clouded_3953 (Oct 30, 2013)

LongWalk said:


> The fact that religion was big part of your life makes him a hypocrite of the first order. Since he sought a leading role in church – the praise group – while actively violating the 10 Commandments, words mean nothing to him. Public opinion means nothing to him either. Your anger and disappointment mean nothing to him either.
> 
> If you think back to all the years that you have known him, I think you will recall all sorts of dishonesty and cynicism on this part, not just with respect to marriage but to property and social relations.
> 
> ...


Yes, he has always been dishonest, at least to me. He always tells his mom the truth though. He would never dream of stealing or cheating someone. If he gets too much money back he would never keep it. If he doesnt get charged for something, he will go back and pay for it. He actually treats other people very well. Another issue I have with him. He does things for other people, especially himself any day before me. He is EXTREMELY SELFISH!!! As far as talking bad about other people...never. Actually, when he things go wrong at work with a co-worker, he always makes things right with them. He hates confrontation and wants to be "friends" with everyone. He treats his friends well too and doesnt talk about negative about any of them. I would say that other then the way he treats me as his wife, his character is better then most. Everyone loves my H and thinks he is an amazing person...if they dont know what he's done to me. 
The worst thing that he has done to his employer is use his company phone to have affairs.


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## clouded_3953 (Oct 30, 2013)

sandc said:


> Take time to process it all. This is not a decision you have to make tonight. Just keep praying and asking God to show you his will. I like the Roman's passage that Thornburn quoted to you and I'll add to that with Jeremiah 29:11-13
> 
> "I know the plans that I have for you, declares the LORD. They are plans for peace and not disaster, plans to give you a future filled with hope. Then you will call to me. You will come and pray to me, and I will hear you. When you look for me, you will find me. When you wholeheartedly seek me, I will let you find me, declares the LORD."
> (God's Word Translation)


Thank you sandc!!! This is one of my favorite scriptures! My dad dies when I was 8 and my step mom would always remind me of this!!!


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## clouded_3953 (Oct 30, 2013)

Rowan said:


> Me, too, I'm sorry to say. A similar story. We were childhood friends, high school sweethearts, and he turned out to be a serial cheater. The one major difference is that, while I was willing to try to reconcile after what I thought was his one affair and spent nearly 3 years in a rather hellish (false) R, I left him and filed for divorce when I found out he was actually a serial cheater. Actually, finding out he was a serial cheater was something of a relief, because suddenly the way he'd treated me for our entire marriage suddenly made sense. I finally realized that I _wasn't_ crazy, he _was_ inappropriate and untrustworthy, and I _could_ find a way to live without someone who held me in such open contempt.
> 
> I get that it's so incredibly hard to imagine life without him. He is literally all you know. But you have GOT to find a way to dredge up your backbone and leave. Or resign yourself to this being your marriage from here on out. Because. He. Will. Never. Change.
> 
> ...


Rowan, you are spot on!! Thank you for sharing!! No, it hasnt felt like love, even though I dont think I know what love is supposed to feel like. 
Are you divorced now? And has he continued to be a serial cheater?


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

Yeah, I'm a guy and I don't run around "getting it".


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## swedish (Mar 6, 2008)

clouded_3953 said:


> I still let him manipulate me...he told me the other day that if I don’t stop talking to my BF that Id be choosing him over our family.


This is really telling. He has been unfaithful your entire marriage and has the nerve to lay a guilt trip on YOU? :scratchhead: This alone would be all I needed to hear to know that he is not remorseful, not accountable for his indiscretions and is trying to guilt you back home, where he will continue to do whatever he wants. Just for the record, every time he cheated, he chose his sexual urges over his family.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

clouded_3953 said:


> Oh my!!! Thats way deeper then I have EVER begin to look at this! So you are saying that no matter how many times he 'says' he knows he needs to change and that knows he has a problem and that he hates who he is, that he cant live like this and that he doesnt want our son to be the person he is, and that he hates himself every time he hurts me. All these things and much more are not really how he feels or thinks?


He feels and thinks these things in ways and for reasons that are different from me and you.

He knows what is expected of him and knows that if his son is like him, he will grow up with the same socially stigmatized behavior. He knows society thinks it's wrong. He knows it hurts you. His solution to this is to hide it as much as possible (this avoids the social stigma and you won't be hurt if you don't know), not to stop what he is doing. He hates it when he is exposed. He doesn't hate himself for doing what comes naturally.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

The point is, he is all you know. So you can't even be aware of what a healthy relationship can be like. So you'll have to trust us, that there ARE men out there who just want a loving faithful wife who they can be loving and faithful and honest to in return. You just have to have the strength to walk away.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Another thing to consider is this: since he is SO great to everyone else, is honest, treats them all with respect, but doesn't do so with you, you have to consider that part of this is because YOU have taught him that you don't have to be held to the same regard as other people. That's not a dis on you; considering how young you were when you got together, I'm not surprised; I was the same way. But he learned early on that he could lie to you or treat you second class...and you'd accept it.

Now's the time to stop accepting it.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

> I fear that my husband will change and if I divorce him another woman will get to experience that.


No. And I'll show you why:

Here is you, a cute little fawn. 









And here is your husband









Can he change his spots? Nope. Sorry.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

clouded_3953 said:


> . I also asked him if he thinks that cheating is grounds for leaving. He said no. That made me sad but I also know that a 13yr old boy doesnt know the vows a H and W take before God.


How clear were you in this talk? I was a 13 years old boy and I understood divorce and vows. Are you 100% sure he wasn't answering concerning you leaving him not your husband?


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

turnera said:


> The point is, he is all you know. So you can't even be aware of what a healthy relationship can be like. So you'll have to trust us, that there ARE men out there who just want a loving faithful wife who they can be loving and faithful and honest to in return. You just have to have the strength to walk away.


Look at my avatar for an example of such a fellow. :smthumbup:

Sorry, my brother is married too.

But more of us are out there.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

clouded_3953 said:


> Rowan, you are spot on!! Thank you for sharing!! No, it hasnt felt like love, even though I dont think I know what love is supposed to feel like.
> Are you divorced now? And has he continued to be a serial cheater?


Yes, I'm divorced. The divorce was final in early October of this year. He is not currently in a committed relationship, although he continues to try to interact with me as if we were still married. It's like he's decided in his own mind that if he just waits patiently for me to get over my little snit, I'll come back and everything will go back to the way it was. 

And, yes, I do think he will continue to cheat. Before we had even signed the separation agreement, he was already hooking up with 2 of his former affair partners, sexting with the mom of one of our son's friends, and heavily pursuing a real relationship with one of his co-workers. Understand that this was in the 4 _weeks_ between me telling him I wanted a divorce and us signing the separation agreement. We were still living together and he was at the time trying very hard to talk me out of the divorce, asking to go to counseling and promising he would never cheat on me again. None of these women appeared to know about one another, and he had lied to all of them about the reasons for our divorce. He does not know that I'm aware of his little extracurricular activities just prior to our separation. 

So I don't think he's really into being honest about either his behavior or his intentions.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Rowan said:


> Before we had even signed the separation agreement, he was already hooking up with 2 of his former affair partners, sexting with the mom of one of our son's friends, and heavily pursuing a real relationship with one of his co-workers. Understand that this was in the 4 _weeks_ between me telling him I wanted a divorce and us signing the separation agreement. We were still living together and he was at the time trying very hard to talk me out of the divorce, asking to go to counseling and promising he would never cheat on me again.


Jeebus.


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

sandc said:


> Alcoholics change because they WANT to. Serial cheaters can change IF they want to. Trouble is they have to want to.


And they have to want to permanently.

I'm not saying cheating is a disease like alcoholism, because its not, but lets look at the analogy.

How hard would it be for an alcoholic to stay sober if 
1. They didn't have the consequences of getting drunk (ie you can drive after sex and your not impaired etc).
2. They're surrounded by booze ALL THE TIME. It's all around them 24/7. Many alcoholics can handle alcohol in their presence, but many of them distance themselves from it.

Additionally, the consequences (and I don't know why) aren't as prevalent to them. You forgave them once, twice, three times....or more....why wouldn't you forgive again.


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## clouded_3953 (Oct 30, 2013)

swedish said:


> This is really telling. He has been unfaithful your entire marriage and has the nerve to lay a guilt trip on YOU? :scratchhead: This alone would be all I needed to hear to know that he is not remorseful, not accountable for his indiscretions and is trying to guilt you back home, where he will continue to do whatever he wants. Just for the record, every time he cheated, he chose his sexual urges over his family.



Yes, and that’s exactly what I said to him. I left my home hoping it would wake him up since prior to this he had no consequences for hurting me. He asked me to try MC again, so I went. One month after me leaving, while in MC he was seeing a woman that I caught him 'talking' to about a year earlier. That is when I realized (well, kinda) that by me leaving wasn’t enough to change. Shortly after that, I started seeing someone, even though I know its wrong since we are not D yet. He knew that I had met someone and it wasn’t until about a month ago that he found out that this guy means a lot to me. The day he found this out, was when he gave me this ultimatum and is now saying that he let all the woman he was talking/sleeping with know that he was working on him marriage and to stop calling/texting. He also said he would come clean and tell me everything he had done(he has NEVER done this before, I know everything by being a detective) and that he would never lie to me again. He still hasn’t 'come clean' and I haven’t asked him to. I don’t think I really matters anymore.


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## clouded_3953 (Oct 30, 2013)

Dad&Hubby said:


> And they have to want to permanently.
> 
> I'm not saying cheating is a disease like alcoholism, because its not, but lets look at the analogy.
> 
> ...


Very true! This is what I have learned the most since finding TAM, he has NEVER had ANY consequences for what ALL he has done outside of our marriage. This is probably what makes me the saddest because maybe if I would have known to do the 180, I could have saved my marriage. But who knows, and I can only move forward! 
Last night was one of the hardest nights I have had in a long time. I cried and I haven’t cried in a while (numb). Coming to terms with the fact that I need to D is sad to me!


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## clouded_3953 (Oct 30, 2013)

Rowan said:


> Yes, I'm divorced. The divorce was final in early October of this year. He is not currently in a committed relationship, although he continues to try to interact with me as if we were still married. It's like he's decided in his own mind that if he just waits patiently for me to get over my little snit, I'll come back and everything will go back to the way it was.
> 
> And, yes, I do think he will continue to cheat. *Before we had even signed the separation agreement, he was already hooking up with 2 of his former affair partners, sexting with the mom of one of our son's friends, and heavily pursuing a real relationship with one of his co-workers. Understand that this was in the 4 weeks between me telling him I wanted a divorce and us signing the separation agreement. * We were still living together and he was at the time trying very hard to talk me out of the divorce, asking to go to counseling and promising he would never cheat on me again. None of these women appeared to know about one another, and he had lied to all of them about the reasons for our divorce. He does not know that I'm aware of his little extracurricular activities just prior to our separation.
> 
> So I don't think he's really into being honest about either his behavior or his intentions.


That sounds exactly like my H. I left my home and he, almost immediately, got into a 'relationship' with an old fling. Meanwhile, he was begging me not to leave, and to please come home. That he knew I was serious. Pfffff...he didn’t give 2 poops!!! About 4 months into their relationship, I called her (im a little crazy) because he was telling me that he didn’t talk to her anymore(i knew he was lying). She confirmed that they were. She also said that my H told her that he had cheated once but said the reason was because of me. He also told her many times that he would never to that to her and that he wasn’t that kind of guy. I laughed and told her to run as fast as she could...that her life would be hell with him. Just crazy to think that he the nerve to tell some chick that he would never cheat on her...while he was cheating on his wife!!!

How you are doing with this? Are you at peace? 
Thats all I really want, peace!!!!


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## clouded_3953 (Oct 30, 2013)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> How clear were you in this talk? I was a 13 years old boy and I understood divorce and vows. Are you 100% sure he wasn't answering concerning you leaving him not your husband?


I don't think I was very clear. I started tearing up and I didn’t want to cry, I wanted to have a normal talk with him. My kids have seen me cry WAYYYYY to much. I did start to talk about how vows are between 1 man and 1 woman, period!!! But kinda let it go after that. I do feel like a hypocrite talking to them about this though since they do know I have a bf. My H made sure not to keep this info a secret from them!


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## clouded_3953 (Oct 30, 2013)

alte Dame said:


> He feels and thinks these things in ways and for reasons that are different from me and you.
> 
> He knows what is expected of him and knows that if his son is like him, he will grow up with the same socially stigmatized behavior. He knows society thinks it's wrong. He knows it hurts you. *His solution to this is to hide it as much as possible (this avoids the social stigma and you won't be hurt if you don't know), not to stop what he is doing. He hates it when he is exposed. He doesn't hate himself for doing what comes naturally*.


Hmmm...this is my H to the T. When I really think about it, cant believe the things he has done to get more and more secretive. At one point he had a woman calling him private so that her # wouldn’t show up on the call log. Thinking back, there have been times when he has treated me horrible after I exposed him, rather then begging and pleading like he usually does. 
Thank you Dame!!!


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## clouded_3953 (Oct 30, 2013)

turnera said:


> The point is, he is all you know. So you can't even be aware of what a healthy relationship can be like. So you'll have to trust us, that there ARE men out there who just want a loving faithful wife who they can be loving and faithful and honest to in return. You just have to have the strength to walk away.


I know this will be the hardest thing I have ever done but I know I have to. I can't stop tearing up seeing how many people really care. TAM has been the most help I have received in regards to my situation!!!


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## clouded_3953 (Oct 30, 2013)

turnera said:


> *Another thing to consider is this: since he is SO great to everyone else, is honest, treats them all with respect, but doesn't do so with you, you have to consider that part of this is because YOU have taught him that you don't have to be held to the same regard as other people*. That's not a dis on you; considering how young you were when you got together, I'm not surprised; I was the same way. *But he learned early on that he could lie to you or treat you second class...and you'd accept it.*
> Now's the time to stop accepting it.



Exactly!!! Always being second and unimportant for so long has done a number on me!


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

clouded_3953 said:


> That sounds exactly like my H. I left my home and he, almost immediately, got into a 'relationship' with an old fling. Meanwhile, he was begging me not to leave, and to please come home. That he knew I was serious. Pfffff...he didn’t give 2 poops!!! About 4 months into their relationship, I called her (im a little crazy) because he was telling me that he didn’t talk to her anymore(i knew he was lying). She confirmed that they were. She also said that my H told her that he had cheated once but said the reason was because of me. He also told her many times that he would never to that to her and that he wasn’t that kind of guy. I laughed and told her to run as fast as she could...that her life would be hell with him. Just crazy to think that he the nerve to tell some chick that he would never cheat on her...while he was cheating on his wife!!!
> 
> How you are doing with this? Are you at peace?
> Thats all I really want, peace!!!!


Yeah, I'm the "frigid b!tch" with irrational jealousy issues who is also a terrible housekeeper and pathologically lazy. At least according to my husband. Serial cheaters tend to say whatever gets them sympathy from their affair partners. Most people, even ones who are willing to date a married person, don't want to think they are with a serial cheater. Most Other Women want to believe their married man is Prince Charming, sadly shackled to a vicious harpy. And that she is his only source of comfort amid the unfairness of his tragic life. What they have together is true love! 

And, yes, I really am starting to be at peace. I still have days when I'm just really, really angry - with him, with myself, with all the people who pretended to be our friends but knew about his cheating and didn't tell me. 

But I realized a while back that while he may say he wants to be different, he doesn't want it enough to actually _do_ anything about it. When he says he doesn't want me to be hurt anymore, he doesn't mean he will stop doing things that hurt me, but that he wants me to stop _being_ hurt when he does hurtful things. He wants credit for being a good guy without actually having to _be_ a good guy.

And all that's on him. I can't fix him or change him, but I also don't have to stick around for his dysfunction.


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## clouded_3953 (Oct 30, 2013)

Rowan said:


> Yeah, I'm the "frigid b!tch" with irrational jealousy issues who is also a terrible housekeeper and pathologically lazy. At least according to my husband. Serial cheaters tend to say whatever gets them sympathy from their affair partners. Most people, even ones who are willing to date a married person, don't want to think they are with a serial cheater. Most Other Women want to believe their married man is Prince Charming, sadly shackled to a vicious harpy. And that she is his only source of comfort amid the unfairness of his tragic life. What they have together is true love!
> 
> And, yes, I really am starting to be at peace. I still have days when I'm just really, really angry - with him, with myself, with all the people who pretended to be our friends but knew about his cheating and didn't tell me.
> 
> ...


*Most Other Women want to believe their married man is Prince Charming, sadly shackled to a vicious harpy. And that she is his only source of comfort amid the unfairness of his tragic life. What they have together is true love!*

I have a really hard time with this!!! I have recently gotten a little better, but I have issues with woman. I honestly don’t like to be around them! Especially when I notice them flirty with married men. My H never took his ring off. I know this is something I have to get over because he is to blame for what he did but I HATE the woman who slept with him knowing he was married!! I still see one of them (her kids go to school with my children) and I make sure she sees me giving her the nastiest looks...guess it makes me feel better.

*But I realized a while back that while he may say he wants to be different, he doesn't want it enough to actually do anything about it.*

My H was cheating on me while in counseling and MC. I realized that the 'help' he was getting was just a front! 
And now he's a changed man....while doing nothing to change! 

Rowan, thank you so much for taking the time to share, it really means so much to me! It sounds like our situations are very similar.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

If you really want to give the OW hell, just look at them, laugh, and shake your head as you walk away.


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

Rowan said:


> Yeah, *I'm the "frigid b!tch" with irrational jealousy issues who is also a terrible housekeeper and pathologically lazy.* At least according to my husband. Serial cheaters tend to say whatever gets them sympathy from their affair partners. Most people, even ones who are willing to date a married person, don't want to think they are with a serial cheater. Most Other Women want to believe their married man is Prince Charming, sadly shackled to a vicious harpy. And that she is his only source of comfort amid the unfairness of his tragic life. What they have together is true love!
> 
> And, yes, I really am starting to be at peace. I still have days when I'm just really, really angry - with him, with myself, with all the people who pretended to be our friends but knew about his cheating and didn't tell me.
> 
> ...


My dream girl, lol. Yeah cheaters can create some very interesting caricatures of their partners. I think my wife had me looking like Satan or something like Hitler.


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## sammy3 (Jun 5, 2011)

Sorry you are here...

~sammy


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## sammy3 (Jun 5, 2011)

alte Dame said:


> Actually, they don't know or think they have problems and should change. What they think is that human beings are not naturally monogamous and that society puts artificial constraints on us when it decides we should be faithful.
> 
> Serial cheaters think that they actually have it right and the rest of us are in denial. So they don't think the problem is with them. They think it's with this 'false, superficial' notion of fidelity, which for them flies in the face of our natural urges to reproduce as widely as possible.
> 
> ...


:iagree:


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## clouded_3953 (Oct 30, 2013)

Thorburn said:


> My dream girl, lol. Yeah cheaters can create some very interesting caricatures of their partners. I think my wife had me looking like Satan or something like Hitler.


Makes me so pissed when I think about the crap he said about me to these OW. I’m crazy!!! They would be crazy as well if their husbands were sleeping with every woman that looks their way. And so would he!!!
He was have a having a PA two years ago during Valentines Day. (BTW,he got me nothing)I busted him and confronted her in front of her H (a few days past VDay). I asked her if he got her something...he got her flowers. She told me that she asked him what he got me and he told her that he doesn’t buy me anything anymore because I am ungrateful and return everything he gets me. I was shocked!!!


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

clouded_3953 said:


> My H never took his ring off.


 How do you know this 100%?


> My H was cheating on me while in counseling and MC. I realized that the 'help' he was getting was just a front!
> And now he's a changed man....while doing nothing to change!


 That lets you know it is time to go. There are some things that mean it is over regardless of actions. Lying in the middle of MC is one of them IMO.


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## clouded_3953 (Oct 30, 2013)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> How do you know this 100%?
> That lets you know it is time to go. There are some things that mean it is over regardless of actions. Lying in the middle of MC is one of them IMO.


I guess I really don’t know 100 but he works at a cell phone store inside the mall and I used to go there all the time, unexpectedly to try and catch him in mess. He always had his ring on and all the OW (that I know of) knew he was married. He would just let them, if they cared, that things were really bad. 

You are right philly, but doesn’t make it any easier for me. I believed his lies and manipulation for so many years that a part of me is still saying that he can change. And at the same time I know that is not the case. This is normal, correct? As long as I am on TAM I feel empowered and D is the best decision, at night my mind start wondering...its crazy!!


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

clouded_3953 said:


> I guess I really don’t know 100 but he works at a cell phone store inside the mall and I used to go there all the time, unexpectedly to try and catch him in mess. He always had his ring on and all the OW (that I know of) knew he was married. He would just let them, if they cared, that things were really bad.
> 
> You are right philly, but doesn’t make it any easier for me. I believed his lies and manipulation for so many years that a part of me is still saying that he can change. And at the same time I know that is not the case. This is normal, correct? As long as I am on TAM I feel empowered and D is the best decision, at night my mind start wondering...its crazy!!


Just stay the course. Your emotions will play with you for a long time. There will be times where you go all over the place. Try to focus on D. You will find a better place down the road, but it will take a while.


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## Rev. Clonn (Nov 11, 2013)

Clouded,
I am so sorry this is happening to you. You deserve more than this, you deserve love. Not what this man has given you all these years. Don't give up on God, he still loves you. The churches may be wrong, the people who run them are only human. But God can and will be your rock, and will carry you through the hard times. Leave your sorry excuse for a husband, love your children and yourself. the rest will follow. I will pray for you and your children.


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## No_one (Nov 4, 2013)

I don't have any good advice to give, just wanted to say you certainly aren't alone. I'm wading through my 2nd D day and 3rd affair. I'm not sure what I'm doing. He is now husband on best behavior trying desperately to "fix" everything but I know in my heart its only a matter of time till a new opportunity comes to him and he does it again. I want to encourage you not to backslide into his game, don't lose the ground you have gained. I wish I was at your point right now- where you are out of it just enough to breath a little. Hopefully someday soon I will be too.


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## clouded_3953 (Oct 30, 2013)

Rev. Clonn said:


> Clouded,
> I am so sorry this is happening to you. You deserve more than this, you deserve love. Not what this man has given you all these years. Don't give up on God, he still loves you. The churches may be wrong, the people who run them are only human. But God can and will be your rock, and will carry you through the hard times. Leave your sorry excuse for a husband, love your children and yourself. the rest will follow. I will pray for you and your children.


Thank you for the encouragement Rev! I know I deserve better and as a child of God I know he has more for me! Its just hard getting there or even imagining myself there! But with time I will...I have no choice at this point!!!


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## clouded_3953 (Oct 30, 2013)

No_one said:


> I don't have any good advice to give, just wanted to say you certainly aren't alone. I'm wading through my 2nd D day and 3rd affair. I'm not sure what I'm doing.* He is now husband on best behavior trying desperately to "fix" everything but I know in my heart its only a matter of time till a new opportunity comes to him and he does it again.* I want to encourage you not to backslide into his game, don't lose the ground you have gained. *I wish I was at your point right now- where you are out of it just enough to breath a little. Hopefully someday soon I will be too*.


This is my H right now as well as I know he can sense a difference in me and he is scared! And I have to keep telling myself the same thing...it is only a matter of time when he will offend again. 

It was the hardest thing ever but I didn’t do what I should have when I left. I still made things comfortable for him. I still cried to him and begged him to just change. I still asked him questions all the time trying to dig for new info. The only diff was, was that he didn’t have to be a sneaky and justified his actions even more...after all, I was the one who choose to leave. 
The hard part now is...no more mrs. nice gal.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Staying on TAM will help you keep up your resolve when you are faced with separating from a serial cheater. Stay on and keep your thread active. As some people say here, 'keep your big girl panties on.' Don't let him patronize you with any more lies. You know the truth. Your head is now completely up to speed and is warring with your heart, but your heart will catch up to your head at some point. You will stop hoping that there is truth in his lies. You will start to feel more detached and almost sorry for someone who makes a life of lying and cheating.

Forward focus for yourself. There is a poster here who told himself that he 'deserves good things' whenever he faltered regarding his WW. You definitely deserve good things. Keep standing up for yourself.


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## sammy3 (Jun 5, 2011)

Cloude, 
Start now all the things you say you wish you had done differently. Use your hind-site. 

Imho, move back into the house, move the hubster out, take a year to clear your head. Tell him to clear his. You both are way to toxic for each each other. If this is love, who in the hell wants any part of it??? Would you ever tell you kids to sign up for a life like you have been living ? I don't think so. Believe me, I get your pain, but for now,you should just turn away..., take care of only you and your kids. 

~sammy


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