# Sexual Frustration



## phantomfan (Mar 7, 2012)

Ive been married for 7 years and been faithful, but I'm feeling the urge to be with someone else for some raw hot sex that I haven't gotten from my partner in a long time. Sex for the first couple years was great and exciting. Now the only time we have sex is when I get angry for the lack of sex and attention. When we have sex, most of the time, its bland and boring. On the rare occasion that sex us mildly better, its because I'm trying my ass off to make it better. After one of those efforts, instead of trying to build on it, it seems to me that my partner does the opposite. It seems like there is a deliberate act to sabotage our sex life. I'm expected to accept a marriage without a basic need met. I feel like I'm trying to tango with someone who just doesn't want to any longer, someone who wants to make something that should be simple too complicated and not worth the effort. There are more blackout dates and exclusions than trying to redeem frequent flier miles. 

I've talked about what my needs are and that they are unmet many times. I get blamed that its my fault that I don't (insert excuse here). I do what my spouse asks and I don't get what I need in return. I don't want to leave or divorce because we have children and I don't truly want to have sex or be with anyone else. On the other hand, that's exactly what I feel like I'm being pushed to do. I'm tired of being hurt by the rejection and the indifference I get. At this point I haven't actively done anything but I'm pretty sure that I'd jump on an opportunity to have what I don't get if I know that I wouldn't get caught. I feel guilty already but I'm not sure that is enough to stop me if the right situation comes up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## phantomfan (Mar 7, 2012)

I know its a horrible idea and I know how much it hurts to be cheated on. I'ts the emotional/physical need to have someone want to screw you crosseyed that masturbation can't give you. I don't want to leave or cheat, I just want the woman I married who at one point was so available and ready to go it was half killing me to keep up. If it was always an issue, I wouldn't feel as frustrated. It's the can but won't effort that gets under my skin.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

phantomfan said:


> I know its a horrible idea and I know how much it hurts to be cheated on. I'ts the emotional/physical need to have someone want to screw you crosseyed that masturbation can't give you. I don't want to leave or cheat, I just want *the woman I married who at one point was so available and ready to go it was half killing me to keep up.* If it was always an issue, I wouldn't feel as frustrated. *It's the can but won't effort that gets under my skin.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It sounds like sex is an "effort" now, and it wasn't an "effort" back then when she was always ready to go. Do you know why it has become an effort? When did it go from being fun to "effort"?


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## ladybird (Jun 16, 2010)

phantomfan said:


> Ive been married for 7 years and been faithful, but I'm feeling the urge to be with someone else for some raw hot sex that I haven't gotten from my partner in a long time. Sex for the first couple years was great and exciting. Now the only time we have sex is when I get angry for the lack of sex and attention. When we have sex, most of the time, its bland and boring. On the rare occasion that sex us mildly better, its because I'm trying my ass off to make it better. After one of those efforts, instead of trying to build on it, it seems to me that my partner does the opposite. It seems like there is a deliberate act to sabotage our sex life. I'm expected to accept a marriage without a basic need met. I feel like I'm trying to tango with someone who just doesn't want to any longer, someone who wants to make something that should be simple too complicated and not worth the effort. There are more blackout dates and exclusions than trying to redeem frequent flier miles.
> 
> I've talked about what my needs are and that they are unmet many times. I get blamed that its my fault that I don't (insert excuse here). I do what my spouse asks and I don't get what I need in return. I don't want to leave or divorce because we have children and I don't truly want to have sex or be with anyone else. On the other hand, that's exactly what I feel like I'm being pushed to do. I'm tired of being hurt by the rejection and the indifference I get. At this point I haven't actively done anything but I'm pretty sure that I'd jump on an opportunity to have what I don't get if I know that I wouldn't get caught. I feel guilty already but I'm not sure that is enough to stop me if the right situation comes up.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



I know what it is like to be sexually frustrated.. It sucks... 

I almost had an PA last year (it was an ea to start with). I met the guy a bunch of times. I kissed him, but that is as far as it went... I couldn't do it and i refused to be a person I am not. At that moment i realized what I had to lose. The man i have been married to for the last 14 years. 

If you are really considering having an affair, you really need to sit and think about what you really want. You having an affair is not fair to your wife, and not fair to you, It will make things much worse then they already are.

Some people can have an affair and not have it effect them whatsoever.. Others can't. It will eat at you every second of everyday.

The good news is you are here on TAM. There are so many people going through the exact same thing as you.. I was one of them.. I gave up. I stopped talking about sex to my husband, i stopped getting angry after months had passed.. I just stopped. 

Granted having an affair is usually a quick fix to a problem, not a solution for the problem..

If she is unwilling to meet your needs then I would say move on.. However, I know it is not that simple


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

phantomfan, how many hours a week do you and your wife spend doing date like things, just the 2 of you: going for a walk/holding hands, just talking to each other about things that are important to each of you, a weekly date, etc?


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## phantomfan (Mar 7, 2012)

ladybird said:


> I know what it is like to be sexually frustrated.. It sucks...
> 
> I almost had an PA last year (it was an ea to start with). I met the guy a bunch of times. I kissed him, but that is as far as it went... I couldn't do it and i refused to be a person I am not. At that moment i realized what I had to lose. The man i have been married to for the last 14 years.
> 
> ...



Your right it's not that simple. I've divorced once and its not something I want to ever go through again for many reasons. I was hesitant to get married a second time. Only because she restored my faith in women by the consistent level of care, thought and sensitivity that I used to get from her did I even consider getting married again. We lived together for more than a year before to make sure that everything was compatible (including our sex lives). Its going on 4 years now that this has been a problem and the anger has not subsided. I don't expect to be hot and heavy the entire time as it was in the beginning, that's not realistic. I don't expect her to be a porn star in the bedroom after a long day at work. I accept that there are ups and downs, good and bad. The only thing I've ever asked since this has been a problem is to deal with it, make time for sex and put it near the top of the list, instead of dead last. I've offered to do anything short of bringing others into the bedroom to spice things up and I've been very creative. 

I'm not a cheater by nature, but a starving man is going to eat. I've turned down offers in the past out of love/respect for her and our marriage. They were never a temptation in the slightest. She says she's never cheated on me but I also feel like maybe she did and was never honest with me about it. I was her first real LTR. All of her previous relationships were not more than a month or two. I travel for short times for my job and so I know there was opportunity. It's been an issue in the past where she accused me of cheating on trips, when all I wanted to do was get home to her. I've spent thousands to fly her out on the spur of the moment just to be with her on longer trips, turning a business trip into a vacation. I'm actually traveling on business now and feeling lonely/hungry enough that I don't trust that good judgement will win out this time. I'm too lonely, too hurt and too starved for attention that I can't just sit in my motel room alone and wollow in my own misery. I can't be effectively doing my job in this funk.

I guess the bottom line for me is I know I have a choice, we always do. I don't want to give an ultimatum either because I don't want to follow through with dismantling the life that both of us have put a lot of work into, what could/should be an awesome partnership. I wish I had better cards to play than cheat and stay, cheat and leave, don't cheat and leave or be miserable. Lose, Lose, Lose.


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## phantomfan (Mar 7, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> phantomfan, how many hours a week do you and your wife spend doing date like things, just the 2 of you: going for a walk/holding hands, just talking to each other about things that are important to each of you, a weekly date, etc?


Right now, I would say not much. Even when I was not at the level of frustration I am at now and did much more, there was no difference. I've done many romantic and unexpected/thoughtful things on a very regular basis and that just isn't returned. I took her on a very romantic getaway, just the two of us to a very exotic location. I did everything right. What I got in return was one good hot and heavy session (of course initiated by me) and then the indifferent sabotage. It completely ruined the trip for me. It's that pattern that continues. It's one disappointment after another like that over the last few years. I do something really awesome things for her, show an incredible amount of thought and attention to meet her needs, make her life happy. It seems I can't get the time of day no matter what is going on, especially if I do something really awesome.


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## 7737 (Feb 10, 2011)

Phantom - I am in the same boat as you. No matter how hard you try to man up, rekindle the 'good old days', do your bit with the household chores, cuddle up to her, give her the massages etc what YOU actually crave as a man is sex and she isn't giving it.

Its YOUR fault. Period. All sex related problems in marriage are caused by the man either directly or indirectly. If you 'go over the side' it will be your fault. If you divorce it will be your fault.

You have a choice...accept the situation or divorce and pay the financial and emotional price.

Fortunately things aren't like that....I try to be realistic. 

You are starving, you are not being fed at home....if someone else offers you food you'll take it. It is your wifes duty to feed you, just as it is your duty to love, cherish etc her.

Many people on TAM will tell you (as they have me) that you are simply trying to justify being unfaithful...make yourself feel better. 
Divorce is so much easier when theer are no children etc involved. When you have children the price is even greater - alot greater.

It is your fundemental right to be happy. If having an affair or having a FWB is 'right' for you and your current situation, then go for it.... Enjoy your food....and if you wife finds out, then cross that bridge if and when you get to it. 
Good luck.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

phantomfan said:


> Right now, I would say not much. Even when I was not at the level of frustration I am at now and did much more, there was no difference. I've done many romantic and unexpected/thoughtful things on a very regular basis and that just isn't returned. I took her on a very romantic getaway, just the two of us to a very exotic location. I did everything right. What I got in return was one good hot and heavy session (of course initiated by me) and then the indifferent sabotage. It completely ruined the trip for me. It's that pattern that continues. It's one disappointment after another like that over the last few years. I do something really awesome things for her, show an incredible amount of thought and attention to meet her needs, make her life happy. It seems I can't get the time of day no matter what is going on, especially if I do something really awesome.


Generally, a couple needs to spend 15 hours a week together doing date-like things to keep the passion going. Quantity is as important as quality.

What are the complaints your wife makes?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

7737 said:


> Phantom - I am in the same boat as you. No matter how hard you try to man up, rekindle the 'good old days', do your bit with the household chores, cuddle up to her, give her the massages etc what YOU actually crave as a man is sex and she isn't giving it.
> 
> Its YOUR fault. Period. All sex related problems in marriage are caused by the man either directly or indirectly. If you 'go over the side' it will be your fault. If you divorce it will be your fault.
> 
> ...


 :scratchhead:


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

phantomfan said:


> Right now, I would say not much. Even when I was not at the level of frustration I am at now and did much more, there was no difference. I've done many romantic and unexpected/thoughtful things on a very regular basis and that just isn't returned. I took her on a very romantic getaway, just the two of us to a very exotic location. I did everything right. What I got in return was one good hot and heavy session (of course initiated by me) and then the indifferent sabotage. It completely ruined the trip for me. It's that pattern that continues. It's one disappointment after another like that over the last few years. I do something really awesome things for her, show an incredible amount of thought and attention to meet her needs, make her life happy. It seems I can't get the time of day no matter what is going on, especially if I do something really awesome.


Have you sat your wife down and told her very calmly and very clearly that you are this frustrated in your relationship and this seriously considering divorcing her so that you can find someone with whom to have a normal sex life?


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## phantomfan (Mar 7, 2012)

7737 said:


> Phantom - I am in the same boat as you. No matter how hard you try to man up, rekindle the 'good old days', do your bit with the household chores, cuddle up to her, give her the massages etc what YOU actually crave as a man is sex and she isn't giving it.
> 
> Its YOUR fault. Period. All sex related problems in marriage are caused by the man either directly or indirectly. If you 'go over the side' it will be your fault. If you divorce it will be your fault.
> 
> ...


Thanks! I don't need to justify what I know is wrong. I don't want FWB. I've been there and done that. What I want is for my wife to realize that our marriage is at stake and fight for me without me having to lay down an ultimatum, before something bad happens. I don't honestly know if she would send me packing if I cheated, got caught and admitted it. I'm not sure that I wouldn't send her packing if an indiscretion in the past has lead to years of neglecting my needs. People make mistakes and everyone is human, but patterns of behavior is something else. 

What I need is a hot romp with someone who is into me (in the way that you feel like the luckiest guy or girl on the planet) that would relieve the pain, rejection and anger I am feeling right now. I need for someone to treat me like I'm the only guy on the planet, with the winner getting screwed stupid (to put it bluntly). I want that to be my wife in the absolute worst way. That's what my heart has been aching for and not given. Unfortunately for me she's not here and has squandered so many opportunities to make a simple choice, to step up to the plate and take a home run swing JUST ONE TIME, I've lost count. 

I do feel better knowing that I'm not alone with this issue, but I sure do feel alone at this point as I'm sure everyone does in our situation. If something doesn't change and it happens, then I will have to make other choices. I think I could pretend it never happened if something did go down. I really would rather not chance it. If this is what a drug addict feels like when they are without their fix, I understand why its so hard to be clean. A small sliver of hope is all that seems to stand in the way of a tsunami of hopelessness (at least from my current point of view). Nothing has changed yet. Something has to give. It will either get better or worse. I wish I had the answer and it was simple. From my perspective, its a simple fix that I don't have control over other peoples choices.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

I wish, in cases like yours, that our wife would come here and share things from her perspective. Without that it's all a guessing game. 

What is it that she tells you are the problems?

What you want from your wife is completely reasonable. It's what I want from my husband as well and do not get. I do not understand people who will not put out the effort to keep their marriage passionate.


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## Stryker (Feb 3, 2012)

phantomfan said:


> Thanks! I don't need to justify what I know is wrong. I don't want FWB. I've been there and done that. What I want is for my wife to realize that our marriage is at stake and fight for me without me having to lay down an ultimatum, before something bad happens. I don't honestly know if she would send me packing if I cheated, got caught and admitted it. I'm not sure that I wouldn't send her packing if an indiscretion in the past has lead to years of neglecting my needs. People make mistakes and everyone is human, but patterns of behavior is something else.
> 
> What I need is a hot romp with someone who is into me (in the way that you feel like the luckiest guy or girl on the planet) that would relieve the pain, rejection and anger I am feeling right now. I need for someone to treat me like I'm the only guy on the planet, with the winner getting screwed stupid (to put it bluntly). I want that to be my wife in the absolute worst way. That's what my heart has been aching for and not given. Unfortunately for me she's not here and has squandered so many opportunities to make a simple choice, to step up to the plate and take a home run swing JUST ONE TIME, I've lost count.
> 
> I do feel better knowing that I'm not alone with this issue, but I sure do feel alone at this point as I'm sure everyone does in our situation. If something doesn't change and it happens, then I will have to make other choices. I think I could pretend it never happened if something did go down. I really would rather not chance it. If this is what a drug addict feels like when they are without their fix, I understand why its so hard to be clean. A small sliver of hope is all that seems to stand in the way of a tsunami of hopelessness (at least from my current point of view). Nothing has changed yet. Something has to give. It will either get better or worse. I wish I had the answer and it was simple. From my perspective, its a simple fix that I don't have control over other peoples choices.


---How "was" your Wife in bed, whenever she was and her Libido and things she seemed to be liking and disliking, telling you ever her own needs like how she wants it.....?

well randomly, let me say..


Get her next time into intimacy as you used to get her ( even try newer coaxing ,foreplay techniques) ..once in "bed",Try "unconventional" foreplay,through peculiar touch n slow caress plus a tickling n softly paining mode knowing the spots and how to do it and resort to innovative lovemaking techniques with her...from head to toe ,from her feet to head ...use Power and Love ,balance your Timing and Staying Power, show Love n care n Passion in words and deeds while in the act...sometimes or many times, MANY women like reckless sex with passionate love in Eros and being "devastated"..


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## phantomfan (Mar 7, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> Generally, a couple needs to spend 15 hours a week together doing date-like things to keep the passion going. Quantity is as important as quality.
> 
> What are the complaints your wife makes?


Her number one complaint is that I don't excuse her from sex since she does housework, takes care of the children, etc and is otherwise faithful according to her. Again I don't know that I believe her based on my experience but I don't have a smoking gun to know for sure that she hasn't been faithful. Some of her behaviors, and things she's said to me are classic signs of a spouse who cheated. Unconfirmed cheating aside, I can cook, I can clean, parent and take care of myself. As a man, I'd gladly trade one or more of those strengths and step up where needed for a wife who proudly wears a "porn star" hat in the bedroom, for a wife who doesn't complicate life by ignoring my sexual needs, much less blame me or tell me I need to accept and be thankful for what little I do get. 

She sometimes complains about the lack of affection (kissing, compliments) which is not true from my point of view. I have taken the time to do date like things, buy flowers, hang out, take her out, do what she wants as much as possible. I expect for her to "schedule" a few minutes of her undivided "attention" in return for what I do. I am not an unreasonable man, but I am a man. I do the things she asks until the affection I've given isn't returned for days and I'm too frustrated to do those things any more without getting what I need in return. I've done my damnest to spoil her rotten. I like doing it and I don't keep a ledger to make sure its a 50/50 even return on my investment in her. IMHO, the return isn't even close. 

It should be simple. Guys are wired/will give women the world to get sex, and women are wired to give sex to get affection. It's a nice symbotic yin/yang that works well when both are giving themselves freely to each other. When one doesn't give the other person what they need in exchange for what they want/need, it's dysfunctional. When I give her what she wants and she does not give me what I need, I consider that to be a form of unfaithfulness to the vows to love, honor and cherish. I definitely do not feel loved, honored or cherished.


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## Anubis (Jul 12, 2011)

Have you gone through a spell where you stopped catering to her and spoiling her? One where you basically ignore her, but continue to parent and take care of your share of the chores, etc. if so, how did she respond?

Just curious: how many kids do you have with her/ages? And the did everything change as soon as one arrived?


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## phantomfan (Mar 7, 2012)

Stryker said:


> ---How "was" your Wife in bed, whenever she was and her Libido and things she seemed to be liking and disliking, telling you ever her own needs like how she wants it.....?
> 
> well randomly, let me say..
> 
> ...


Being creative, trying things and technique is not an issue. I'm not the world's best, but I know how to please a woman and I really enjoy doing so. I enjoy bringing my wife to climax almost as much I enjoy my own orgasm. I RARELY get that opportunity anymore. Two weeks ago, I initiated, took charge and gave her a very nice and hot romp. She told me how much she liked it, then didn't touch me for days...had no interest and avoided me like the plague. It's not me or a willingness on my part to do just about ANYTHING to make sex as enjoyable, fun and exciting as I can for her. I just feel like I no longer have a partner in the bedroom.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

phantomfan said:


> Being creative, trying things and technique is not an issue. I'm not the world's best, but I know how to please a woman and I really enjoy doing so. I enjoy bringing my wife to climax almost as much I enjoy my own orgasm. I RARELY get that opportunity anymore. Two weeks ago, I initiated, took charge and gave her a very nice and hot romp. She told me how much she liked it, then didn't touch me for days...had no interest and avoided me like the plague. It's not me or a willingness on my part to do just about ANYTHING to make sex as enjoyable, fun and exciting as I can for her. *I just feel like I no longer have a partner in the bedroom.*


It's actually that you no longer have a partner, period.


Firstly, I can relate to your frustrations. And all we know is what you have written about what your wife has said.

As a woman, of course I clued into what you wrote about "been there done that" and nothing changed, and she says she does the housework, looks after the kids, and you should just be happy with that. 

That reeks of resentment and a "contract" for sex.

I will take your word that you have tried "everything".
And advise that you try something else. Why not? 

Try reading a few of these books (together)
His Needs Her Needs
The Five Love Languages
go to marriage builders and do the Emotional Needs Questionaire
The Married Mans Sex Life Primer

Mis-understanding what your partner wants to feel safe trusted and willing to be vulnerable can cause this type of situation. Giving her 10 apples when she really needs 2 oranges. Reading the books together can help both of you understand WHAT your needs are, and HOW to keep each other happy.

If you have done all of this, try counselling. Give it a year. If nothing changes, then consider your options.

What you have done hasn't worked. Try something else.


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

Phantom, you also need to have your wife see her MD to rule out any medical issues. Is she on birth control? This can really lower the libidio.

Your wife sounds like she also has some resentment towards you. Tell her if it's over chores, you can agree to come up with a list of who is responsible for what and stick to it.

Get the two of you into counseling! Tell your wife directly that you can't go on much longer this way and you want to make every effort to make things right between the two of you before you decide on what YOUR next step will be. You don't have to use the DIVORCE word.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

deejov said:


> It's actually that you no longer have a partner, period.
> 
> 
> Firstly, I can relate to your frustrations. And all we know is what you have written about what your wife has said.
> ...



:iagree:

There are a lot of good references above that *may *provide some help. Treat these as tools to use to see fi they will do the job. Some work, some don't but they are different ways to approach the same problem. Also, you need to give it some time to take effect.

I would also note that there is a difference between trying hard and trying effectively. I have no doubt that you have tried hard, but have no clue if you have tried effectively (I can try very hard to paint my house, but if I don't know enough to scrape the old flaking paint it my efforts won't matter). Because of that, I would try the his needs her needs work sheet to make sure that you are doing what she needs.

Finally, approach this as you wanting to be closer to her, not as you want more sex. Becasue for men, sex is about closeness and intimacy. Having sex is acceptance by your woman. If she asks if it is about sex, tell her that while sex is part of it, it is not nearly all of it, and that you want the two of you to be closer as a couple. Also note that half is this is about you making sure that she is getting the things she needs from you.


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## LadyFrog (Feb 27, 2012)

phantomfan said:


> Her number one complaint is that I don't excuse her from sex since she does housework, takes care of the children, etc and is otherwise faithful according to her. Again I don't know that I believe her based on my experience but I don't have a smoking gun to know for sure that she hasn't been faithful. Some of her behaviors, and things she's said to me are classic signs of a spouse who cheated. Unconfirmed cheating aside, I can cook, I can clean, parent and take care of myself. As a man, I'd gladly trade one or more of those strengths and step up where needed for a wife who proudly wears a "porn star" hat in the bedroom, for a wife who doesn't complicate life by ignoring my sexual needs, much less blame me or tell me I need to accept and be thankful for what little I do get.
> 
> She sometimes complains about the lack of affection (kissing, compliments) which is not true from my point of view. I have taken the time to do date like things, buy flowers, hang out, take her out, do what she wants as much as possible. I expect for her to "schedule" a few minutes of her undivided "attention" in return for what I do. I am not an unreasonable man, but I am a man. I do the things she asks until the affection I've given isn't returned for days and I'm too frustrated to do those things any more without getting what I need in return. I've done my damnest to spoil her rotten. I like doing it and I don't keep a ledger to make sure its a 50/50 even return on my investment in her. IMHO, the return isn't even close.
> 
> It should be simple. Guys are wired/will give women the world to get sex, and women are wired to give sex to get affection. It's a nice symbotic yin/yang that works well when both are giving themselves freely to each other. When one doesn't give the other person what they need in exchange for what they want/need, it's dysfunctional. When I give her what she wants and she does not give me what I need, I consider that to be a form of unfaithfulness to the vows to love, honor and cherish. I definitely do not feel loved, honored or cherished.


Hi, Phantomfan. So let me get this straight. You wife thinks she should be "excused" from sex because she does housework and raises kids? That's like saying you should be excused from math and history class because you take PE. What a crock.

Breaking of vows is exactly what it is. Personal belief of mine that the "love" part means both physical and emotional.


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## LadyFrog (Feb 27, 2012)

Toffer said:


> Phantom, you also need to have your wife see her MD to rule out any medical issues. Is she on birth control? This can really lower the libidio.
> 
> Your wife sounds like she also has some resentment towards you. Tell her if it's over chores, you can agree to come up with a list of who is responsible for what and stick to it.
> 
> Get the two of you into counseling! Tell your wife directly that you can't go on much longer this way and you want to make every effort to make things right between the two of you before you decide on what YOUR next step will be. You don't have to use the DIVORCE word.


Exactly. The only think I would do differently is tell her you WON'T continue this way. Use of that word will (hopefully) remind her that you have options.


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## LadyFrog (Feb 27, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> Have you sat your wife down and told her very calmly and very clearly that you are this frustrated in your relationship and this seriously considering divorcing her so that you can find someone with whom to have a normal sex life?



I think this is an excellent idea.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

Hi phantom ~

I usually think that issues like this have to take a multi-pronged approach - there has to be things that happen in yourself and in your wife for there to be a solution that is acceptable to both. Marriage after all involves two people, and you do not get into a sexless situation without both people aiding and abetting it.

Is your wife aware of how much of a problem this is for you?

If not, then that is the first issue that YOU must address - in being able to express it to her in such a way that she may understand (she may not necessarily agree, but understand).

If she is aware it's an issue, then what is her willingness to work with you on this? And this part involves both of you - it involves not only you telling her about what your need is, but HER telling you what hers is.

A good place sans marriage counseling for being able to work through this together is something like marriagebuilders.com. There is a book "His Needs, Her Needs" that you can read together, there are worksheets that you can fill out together to find out the things that you each do that turn off the other (the "Love Busters Questionnaire") and things that you each need from the other to feel loved (the "Emotional Needs Questionnaire").

If she is unwilling to do anything about the issue, then you need to take a different approach, most typically by continuing to work on yourself (which you should be doing even if she is willing to work at things). You can check out resources such as the blog/book at marriedmansexlife.com in order to learn how to become a man who is in charge of his own character, emotions, life. That may be part of the spark that your wife may be missing in the marriage - perhaps you've lost the zest and energy you applied to your life and to her that you had when you were dating/early married. If it is not, then you are in a better position to make hard decisions on moving forward.

The other thing to do is to start to educate yourself on female sexuality. Your wife sounds like many (maybe most?) women who have responsive desire, not spontaneous desire. Your spontaneous desire is fed continuously by the high amounts of testosterone you have in your body. The amount of testosterone in her body compared to yours? Paltry. Even at the lowest end, a man would have more than 10 times the amount that a woman has. Because of that, she will need to have something (YOU!) that helps spur her on to desiring sex. Go search out romantic_guy's posts - he has been implementing things he has learned in places like marriedmansexlife.com with a responsive desire wife and has been successful. I, myself, as also a responsive desire wife, and thank goodness my husband works toward helping me with that, but we had to learn it from the school of hard knocks.

The Truth about Female Desire | Psychology Today

Tolstoy said that "_What counts in making a happy marriage is not so much how compatible you are, but how you deal with incompatibility_."

You are now at the point in your marriage where you get to learn how to deal with those incompatibilities. I hope that your wife will agree to join you to work through the issues together. If she does not, then start and continue to work the issues that you own diligently on your own and in time the path forward will become very clear to you.

Best wishes.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> Generally, a couple needs to spend 15 hours a week together doing date-like things to keep the passion going. Quantity is as important as quality.


Hmm... I've seen this 15 hours a week around here a bit and am going to call B.S. on it. (That's not a personal attack on you EleGirl).

First of all, I've never seen it cited anwhere - no reference to it's source.

Second of all, it's does not seem to be reasonable in scope; this sounds like I should devote 15 hours a week on wife-focused non-sexual one-on-one time. Expecting some romance is fine. And, the 15 hours is fine if one argues that time spent doing favors for each other, cooking her favorite meal, running a errand for her, etc. count (and they should).

But, most people probably cannot 2 spare hours per day. During my marriage I averaged at least 10 hours daily on essentials (working, commuting, chores and errands). You spend another 8 hours daily sleeping and getting ready for the day. Then there's family time with the kids, other essentials (school work, home and vehicle maintenance, down time for illness, you name it), and a little personal time then the day is completely gone. Unless you have a stay at home parent, are childless, or can pay for all housework and meals, this is unworkable.

Three, most guys don't ask for anywhere near that much sex. I would imagine that a lady who gets that 15 hours per week gives back maybe 10% of that to her husband - if that. That seems like an awfully disproportionate allocation of a scarce resource (time) likely to be less satisfying to the husband than the wife.


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## Stryker (Feb 3, 2012)

Stryker said:


> ---How "was" your Wife in bed, whenever she was and her Libido and things she seemed to be liking and disliking, telling you ever her own needs like how she wants it.....?
> 
> well randomly, let me say..
> 
> ...


Possibly, your side of story has things which you are unaware about yourself and your doings , and her unsaid emotions regard to it...you seem to be impulsive and a mere physical guy in "loving" than a comprehensive lover...have your self -analysis with a base of new inputs from your wife , which she never would have opened up till now,but get those,analyse and start your changes ,if imperative......


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## phantomfan (Mar 7, 2012)

LadyFrogFlyAway said:


> Exactly. The only think I would do differently is tell her you WON'T continue this way. Use of that word will (hopefully) remind her that you have options.


I've begged her to see a MD about the problem for years, if its truly a lack of desire from a libido decrease. She's made that promise to me, procrastinated and broken it every time. She'll see a MD for the sniffles but not to say my libido is gone and there isn't any other reasonable explanation. I even researched doctors who specalized in female libido in our area. I've read some good books and tried to get her to read them also. Those were a bust. She refused to read them with me.

I know that I'm far from perfect and I've made my share of mistakes in our relationship. I'm a man. We communicate differently. Our biological brains have sex in a different order than most women and vice versa. But it's also true from my experience that we can't give intimacy as a man for any length of time if we're being rejected routinely and regularly by our spouse. It's a vicious cycle that doesn't end well for anyone. We will give up or sacrifice just about anything to have our needs met, including fidelity. That's a simple fact in how our brains work. I know that's the point where I am and I've fought/suppressed those animalistic urges better than most guys would in my position. I've made myself miserable for the sake of her feelings and how she would feel if I returned the unfaithfulness. That's what I'm sick of doing. I deserve better. I deserve to be treated like a king in return for treating my partner like a queen. 

I know there are things that I could have done/can do better. From my perspective, I'm the one on the dance floor begging to tango. My partner has her feet firmly planted off the dance floor looking around at everything else going on instead of jumping on the dance floor, taking a chance and cutting loose with a smile on her face until she forgets she can't dance or didn't want to. 

I've told her how much the rejection hurts. I've told her that she is not available to me. Her response to be more available is a fine line between sarcastic and apathy. I've spent several nights on the couch because sharing a bed with someone who is perfectly content to roll over with a clean conscience, and not care enough for me to drop the indifferent attitude at the door drives me up a wall. I walk out and withdraw because she did it first to me and continues to do so. 

I've withdrawn from her because my heart hurts and I'm tired of it being trampled on so carelessly. I don't want to exercise options. I want the woman I fell in love with to take action, not excuse. I want her to fight for me to win my heart back without me having to force her to do it by throwing the divorce word around or otherwise manipulate her into doing it. I've tried to nudge, lead, prod, pull etc the horse and with her, it simply hasn't worked.


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## LadyFrog (Feb 27, 2012)

phantomfan said:


> I've begged her to see a MD about the problem for years, if its truly a lack of desire from a libido decrease. She's made that promise to me, procrastinated and broken it every time. She'll see a MD for the sniffles but not to say my libido is gone and there isn't any other reasonable explanation. I even researched doctors who specalized in female libido in our area. I've read some good books and tried to get her to read them also. Those were a bust. She refused to read them with me.
> 
> I know that I'm far from perfect and I've made my share of mistakes in our relationship. I'm a man. We communicate differently. Our biological brains have sex in a different order than most women and vice versa. But it's also true from my experience that we can't give intimacy as a man for any length of time if we're being rejected routinely and regularly by our spouse. It's a vicious cycle that doesn't end well for anyone. We will give up or sacrifice just about anything to have our needs met, including fidelity. That's a simple fact in how our brains work. I know that's the point where I am and I've fought/suppressed those animalistic urges better than most guys would in my position. I've made myself miserable for the sake of her feelings and how she would feel if I returned the unfaithfulness. That's what I'm sick of doing. I deserve better. I deserve to be treated like a king in return for treating my partner like a queen.
> 
> ...


I feel for you; I truly do. Posts like yours frustrate me to no end. I don't know what the answer is when one spouse completely withdraws emotionally and sexually, and isn't the least bit interested in changing it. When all the options that are always suggested don't work, or you can't even find out if they WOULD work because the one spouse turns a blind eye, ear, and heart, it's done.
I really hate writing that because it sounds like it's the last thing you want, but unless you can get her to see the light, it's almost impossible.
It truly is like an addict who doesn't want to hear they've got a problem.


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## Stryker (Feb 3, 2012)

some random but possible ,thoughts on the matter :

her reasons can be startling..she may confess to not liking his ways of sex...his manners...or mere physical realms ..she may even have some affair..or she might have some other kind of sex drive.or even orientation, she might have encountered something/s outside their marriage etc etc ..ALL UNKNOWN to "phantom" about his diana...:-


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

Phantom, again it sounds like a time for ultimatums. Maybe start with something like this:

"Honey, you know how I feel about the lack of intimacy in our marriage and that I want it to change. I've made an appointment for you and I to see Dr X on March 21st. If you agin choose to find a reason not to go with me, I will then need to step back from this relationship becuse I can't continue on this way"

Hopefully this will put a little fear into her that her world could drstically change.

I personally would rather rent a room somewhere and live by myself if my marriage gets to this point. Don't get me wrong, I have similar issues but not to the same degree that you're experiencing and my wife is working on it although not as fast (or as often  as I would like!


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

LadyFrogFlyAway said:


> I think this is an excellent idea.


So do I and I think I'm getting very close to having that very same conversation myself.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Phantom,
Does the post below resonate with you? 


http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/21278-thermostat-ultimate-barometer-your-r.html




phantomfan said:


> Being creative, trying things and technique is not an issue. I'm not the world's best, but I know how to please a woman and I really enjoy doing so. I enjoy bringing my wife to climax almost as much I enjoy my own orgasm. I RARELY get that opportunity anymore. Two weeks ago, I initiated, took charge and gave her a very nice and hot romp. She told me how much she liked it, then didn't touch me for days...had no interest and avoided me like the plague. It's not me or a willingness on my part to do just about ANYTHING to make sex as enjoyable, fun and exciting as I can for her. I just feel like I no longer have a partner in the bedroom.


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## phantomfan (Mar 7, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> Phantom,
> Does the post below resonate with you?
> 
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/21278-thermostat-ultimate-barometer-your-r.html


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## phantomfan (Mar 7, 2012)

phantomfan said:


> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Other than the general hot and cold, no. About 1/2 apply to me on each hot and cold.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

phantomfan said:


> I want the woman I fell in love with to take action, not excuse. *I want her to fight for me to win my heart back without me having to force her to do it by throwing the divorce word around or otherwise manipulate her into doing it*. I've tried to nudge, lead, prod, pull etc the horse and with her, it simply hasn't worked.


Then... you need to make yourself in to a man that is worth fighting for...because right now with her having a sarcastic and indifferent attitude - that indicates she does not feel like you are a man worth fighting for.

Go to the Men's Clubhouse sub-forum and start reading the man up/nice guy sticky thread at the top - not as a means to manipulate your wife, but as means to become a better man, the best man that you can be - that any women would want to be with - and do it for YOURSELF. 

Learn how to deflect the sarcasm and bad attitudes that she throws your way to generate respect (see the 'fitness test' thread in the man-up thread). 

You can't change your wife, but you can change YOU...and maybe she'll like what she sees. But even if she doesn't, YOU will like what you see in yourself. 

Best wishes.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Well the "mix" kind of matters and there is a reason for that. What areas are you "hot" in and which is SHE "hot" in?

It really does matter. If you want her to "value" your contribution, you have to steadily ramp DOWN in the areas that matter to her. Because it sure sounds like your response to being de-prioritized by her has been to chase her more intensely with trips, and other stuff. And that is a huge mistake as it inadvertently rewards her bad behavior. 





phantomfan said:


> Other than the general hot and cold, no. About 1/2 apply to me on each hot and cold.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## phantomfan (Mar 7, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> Well the "mix" kind of matters and there is a reason for that. What areas are you "hot" in and which is SHE "hot" in?
> 
> It really does matter. If you want her to "value" your contribution, you have to steadily ramp DOWN in the areas that matter to her. Because it sure sounds like your response to being de-prioritized by her has been to chase her more intensely with trips, and other stuff. And that is a huge mistake as it inadvertently rewards her bad behavior.


Actually I think its better said at this point is that her coldness and inattentiveness in the bedroom has turned me off completely and I've taken cold to a new level for me. Cold, angry and resentful is exactly where I am. I'm stuck between needing her to show me that I matter by her actions. I have no desire to give her what she needs when I'm not getting what I need. She wants me to be warm, and touchy but not give back. She tells me she hates the distance that I've put in place but that coldness hasn't yet resulted in her taking an active role in making things right. She says she's "interested" and shows me interest. Her idea of interest is putting one hand half hearted on my chest 30 seconds before she rolls over and goes to sleep. That's apathy and I'm not going to give that lack of effort the time of day. Depending on the time of day, ill go from depressed to livid to detached. I know I deserve better and I'm not giving better until that happens. I've been the one trying, its time she try back. Like top gun, she needs to take me to bed like a woman who gives a damn or lose me forever.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Sorry to hear you have jumped on the resentment train.
It's not a pleasant ride, it's a cold hard ball of apathy that rattles around in your chest. while you are putting all of your energy into the wall, no one else is able to get in. Especially not your wife.

Someone has to make the first move. You are here, so you must care? You obviously want her love and attention. 

On the other hand, if you have given up and no longer love your wife, and cannot get past everything you have done in the past (and she has not responded) then there is no point in trying. 

At that point it would be fair to divorce her. 
No one is going to approach you when you have closed the door.


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## phantomfan (Mar 7, 2012)

deejov said:


> Sorry to hear you have jumped on the resentment train.
> It's not a pleasant ride, it's a cold hard ball of apathy that rattles around in your chest. while you are putting all of your energy into the wall, no one else is able to get in. Especially not your wife.
> 
> Someone has to make the first move. You are here, so you must care? You obviously want her love and attention.
> ...


Yes my doors are closed but not locked with the locks changed, yet. From my point of view, my spouses actions over the last few years shut them. I have opened the door to my heart many times, only to have it slammed shut in my face. I can't open the doors anymore. She has the power to open them in a heartbeat if she chooses to. That's what I want, but it doesn't seem that she either knows or cares to. 

I'm not sure how I'm going to approach this yet. Divorce is still not the option I am willing to consider for many reasons. I think it would be a waste. I don't like making ultimatums or threats either but I know that I do need to warn her that it's really this serious. I don't like the cheating option either, but if it happens maybe that low will be what turns things around or blows things up, probably the latter. Being on another continent on a business trip for the next 10 days, I will consider myself lucky if something bad doesn't happen. Being on the edge of this cliff sucks. It's so completely unnecessary which is the most frustrating and saddest thing to me.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

Tell us about your infidelity suspicions...you said you noticed some symptoms


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## Jeff74 (Feb 11, 2012)

I am a husband in a sexless marriage with a toddler. Like you there is no way I would get divorced because of sex. Being a divorced parent means less time with my child and no amount of sex with anyone could possibly offset that loss. Although it took some time, I am in a happier place in life (i also donot have a high sex drive.) Some people here would call a marriage without sex a roommate situation but I am much closer to my wife than any roommate I have had in the past! 

Don't let your wife's actions or inactions control your happiness. I let that happen for a period of time and was very unhappy. Take control of the things you can, do the things that make you happy and you will be happy. Not easy but it can be done and I am living proof! It may sound crazy but my wife and I get along great...and our marriage is sexless.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## phantomfan (Mar 7, 2012)

Jeff74 said:


> I am a husband in a sexless marriage with a toddler. Like you there is no way I would get divorced because of sex. Being a divorced parent means less time with my child and no amount of sex with anyone could possibly offset that loss. Although it took some time, I am in a happier place in life (i also donot have a high sex drive.) Some people here would call a marriage without sex a roommate situation but I am much closer to my wife than any roommate I have had in the past!
> 
> Don't let your wife's actions or inactions control your happiness. I let that happen for a period of time and was very unhappy. Take control of the things you can, do the things that make you happy and you will be happy. Not easy but it can be done and I am living proof! It may sound crazy but my wife and I get along great...and our marriage is sexless.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


For some people sexless is fine. Thats not me and it's never going to be. I'm a HD person who needs the emotional/physical aspect in a marriage. It is not something I can be without from my partner.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jeff74 (Feb 11, 2012)

phantomfan said:


> For some people sexless is fine. Thats not me and it's never going to be. I'm a HD person who needs the emotional/physical aspect in a marriage. It is not something I can be without from my partner.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ok that is fine to feel that way. Since that is something that you cannot be without from your partner, I guess you have only 2 options then (without cheating that is)

1. Change your wife into a higher sex drive partner to meet your needs
2. Get divorced and try to find a new partner that will meet your sexual needs

For me, neither of these were an option so I worked on being happy with other parts of my life. Being with my son is first priority for me..and being with my son while being happy with life was also a priority for me. I have done what I needed to do to accomplish both.

I respect how you feel though and wish you the best of luck in solving your dilemma.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## phantomfan (Mar 7, 2012)

I'm not sure the solution I want is possible. I realize that I can't make me happy by sacrifice my own happiness. I've been trying to please her hoping that she will return the favor. That isn't working out. It's not just sex in our relationship that's missing. 

Either way, I've decided to move forward. I'm going 180 and I'm chasing happiness/fulfillment wherever that leads. If she comes after me and things get better, it was meant to be. I'm not being a good father by wollowing in misery and being a shell of my former self. I don't want a divorce and I don't want to cheat. One or both may happen. Its a scary road that could blow up in my face or work out just like I hope. Time will tell.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

That is a very honest response. I believe that overt anger is typically perceived as "I am REALLY angry that you don't love me enough to make an effort to please me". 

Where as indifference - that is a much scarier reaction. So if you can manage to radiate real indifference to her - to her reactions to you and to her needs - you will be conveying that the marriage is unravelling before her eyes. 

At some point - IF she raises the subject the conversation should be VERY brief and it goes like this:
- In a good/great marriage each person goes out of their way to make the effort to ensure that their partners needs are so well met that their spouse is very happy with them and feels highly valued. 
- In an "ok" marriage each person goes out of their way to make AT LEAST enough effort to avoid causing their partner distress. 

It isn't good if your "band" is very narrow. Meaning if daily sex makes you very happy but sex every three days makes you very unhappy. That isn't "wrong" it simply puts her in a difficult situation in terms of trying to find a compromise. If however your band is reasonably wide, and she can't be bothered to avoid causing you distress, THAT is a big problem. 

My Wife absolutely takes her responsibility to keep me satisfied every bit as seriously as I take my commitment to be monogamous. I would NOT be ok if she believed that MY commitment was absolute, and her sexual responsibilities began and ended with doing or "not doing" whatever she felt like at any point in time. 

And the happy balance is that I don't press her to connect when I know she is tired/upset/sad. And she happily makes the effort when I say "I miss you" with a smile and a shrug. 





phantomfan said:


> Actually I think its better said at this point is that her coldness and inattentiveness in the bedroom has turned me off completely and I've taken cold to a new level for me. Cold, angry and resentful is exactly where I am. I'm stuck between needing her to show me that I matter by her actions. I have no desire to give her what she needs when I'm not getting what I need. She wants me to be warm, and touchy but not give back. She tells me she hates the distance that I've put in place but that coldness hasn't yet resulted in her taking an active role in making things right. She says she's "interested" and shows me interest. Her idea of interest is putting one hand half hearted on my chest 30 seconds before she rolls over and goes to sleep. That's apathy and I'm not going to give that lack of effort the time of day. Depending on the time of day, ill go from depressed to livid to detached. I know I deserve better and I'm not giving better until that happens. I've been the one trying, its time she try back. Like top gun, she needs to take me to bed like a woman who gives a damn or lose me forever.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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