# my wife is a liar



## kevin1986

hello everyone,

I wanted to get peoples views on my wife dishonesty about something very important to me, i am a religious young man brought up in a different way from almost all my friends and wifes friends. 

Before my wife and i married we talked about passed relationships and i told her i dated 3 women and never slept with any of them because i do not believe in premarital sex,when i met my wife we where just friends and she new about my beliefs, she didnt belive at first seing that it was easy for me to pick up women and am not the shy type, well what a suprise when she told me she was also saving her self for marriage, but i was looking for more than just her being a virgin i needed to know her heart, after dating for 2 years i new i wanted to marry her because was different from the other women i dated,kind,loving,caring,understanding and to top it off she was a virgin.

well fast forward we have been married 5 years, with a 4 year old son, last week we went to her home town and i was chatting to her friends who had too many to drink, i found out that my wife had a threesome with the guy who she claimed was nothing but a good friend through out our courtship, she also had a one night stand with another guy who was also at the party. at home i comfronted her about everything and she admitted that she lied because she loved me and she didnt want to be judged by her past. how could she lie to me about something so important to me, why didnt she let me make up my own decision to stay or not? i just need advice on why she did this to me, am not perfect but i have never done anything with anybody sexual not because i couldnt, but because i choose not to, how do i know she doesnt compare me with her past lovers? i dont want to compete with the past. its not fair, she duped me into marrying her.


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## kevin1986

she is asking for my forgivness, telling me its the past,to me its the present and it hurts to know that other men know about your wife in that way, is it my ego? your damn right it is.


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## Mr.Fisty

She cheated on you while you were dating her. She probably wanted sex, but did not tell you because you would have judge her. So now you have to figure out if you can love the current her, and if she willing to be honest with you from this point forward so you both can work on the issues.

Do not worry about comparing yourself to her past lovers, you can learn to be a better lover if you learn how her body responds. Just have healthy communication in bed.

Before you can get there though, you will have to decide from what you know about her, and add in the new information to the person whom you believed that you know. Her qualities that you love about her are still there, minus the honesty and whatever else you viewed her as. Is she a good wife, a good mother, does she satisfy your needs, and could you get over her past, lies, and betrayal? Unfortunately, you need time away from her to figure this out. The more your around her, the more your bond will cloud your judgement. Whatever you decide is neither right nor wrong, it is what you need to move on with your life.


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## koukisdad

A life can not be built based on a lie...

If you had no kids i would have advised you to divorce her.

the only advise i give you is that u need new vow with her ...

she has to pass another real test ; something major .


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## that.girl

kevin1986 said:


> last week we went to her home town and i was chatting to her friends who had too many to drink, i found out that my wife had a threesome with the guy who she claimed was nothing but a good friend through out our courtship, she also had a one night stand with another guy who was also at the party.


I'm not quite sure how to read this. Did she cheat on you, or did these encounters happen before you guys started dating?


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## MovingAhead

kevin1986 said:


> hello everyone,
> 
> I wanted to get peoples views on my wife dishonesty about something very important to me, i am a religious young man brought up in a different way from almost all my friends and wifes friends.
> 
> Before my wife and i married we talked about passed relationships and i told her i dated 3 women and never slept with any of them because i do not believe in premarital sex,when i met my wife we where just friends and she new about my beliefs, she didnt belive at first seing that it was easy for me to pick up women and am not the shy type, well what a suprise when she told me she was also saving her self for marriage, but i was looking for more than just her being a virgin i needed to know her heart, after dating for 2 years i new i wanted to marry her because was different from the other women i dated,kind,loving,caring,understanding and to top it off she was a virgin.
> 
> well fast forward we have been married 5 years, with a 4 year old son, last week we went to her home town and i was chatting to her friends who had too many to drink, i found out that my wife had a threesome with the guy who she claimed was nothing but a good friend through out our courtship, she also had a one night stand with another guy who was also at the party. at home i comfronted her about everything and she admitted that she lied because she loved me and she didnt want to be judged by her past. how could she lie to me about something so important to me, why didnt she let me make up my own decision to stay or not? i just need advice on why she did this to me, am not perfect but i have never done anything with anybody sexual not because i couldnt, but because i choose not to, how do i know she doesnt compare me with her past lovers? i dont want to compete with the past. its not fair, she duped me into marrying her.


She would lie because she wanted to. Her reasons are her own. A girl who had a threesome. That should give you something to think about. There is no relationship that can be built on lies. You need to be open and honest with her and she needs to do the same with you. You were not married at the time but her judgement leads to serious questions that need to answered and dealt with.


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## Graywolf2

kevin1986 said:


> she is asking for my forgivness, telling me *its the past*,to me its the present and it hurts to know that other men know about your wife in that way, is it my ego? your damn right it is.


She needs to understand that it's the past for her but for you it just happened.


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## Hicks

From a religious perspective things are very clear that you should preserve your family and your marriage. If you are using religion as an execuse to destroy your marriage, that is the exact opposite of being religious.


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## ReidWright

Hicks said:


> From a religious perspective things are very clear that you should preserve your family and your marriage. If you are using religion as an execuse to destroy your marriage, that is the exact opposite of being religious.


well, the bible says she should be stoned death. so divorce would be more merciful, right?

Deuteronomy 22:

"If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the young woman’s virginity can be found, she shall be brought to the door of her father’s house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done an outrageous thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father’s house. You must purge the evil from among you."


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## just got it 55

Kevin I respect your views if they are genuine

My take........You seem to be very concerned about being compared to past lovers.

This should have nothing to do with your beliefs 

Be sure of your feelings young man.

55


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## Daniel.

I don't think it's the ego, but it's the lie. You are led to believe that she was a virgin and turns out she wasn't, thought you were the one who 'shaped' her but there are another men before. Embarassed that you figured out the truth from her friends not her. From what you said the virgin part seems like just the cherry on top.
Let me ask you this, if she was upfront, would you marry her ?


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## Chaparral

Back in the day, all the girls claimed to be virgins.

This is simply up to you. Is the continuity of your family worth overlooking this or not. A lot depends on your confidence level in yourself.

How is your marriage otherwise?

I personally feel like you are to hung up on the sex issue and have been from the beginning. Forgiveness is a big part of being a Christian and she didn't commit adultery so I don't think you have recourse to divorce. You can remain single or look for another virgin I suppose.

I find it odd you believed the virgin story in the first place though. Weren't you suspicious of all virgin claims. As you can see how hard it can be finding a good faithful wife anymore, I kinda think you should consider yourself lucky.

BTW, how on earth did you react when people started telling you about her past. Who does that? What should have happened should have left some blood on the floor.


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## Mr.Fisty

Does it really matter if your the best or not, as long as it is satisfying. Your wife might not be the most atractive girl that you have dated, should you regret that? Is the sex good for the both of you, and are you attracted enough to your wife.

Hypothetically speaking, lets say you do divorce, and your next wife is not as good in bed as your ex, does it matter, or you could love her enough that as long as you both find fulfillment, it is good enough.


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## Graywolf2

kevin1986 said:


> I was chatting to her friends who had too many to drink, i found out that my wife had a threesome with the guy who she claimed was nothing but a good friend through out our courtship, she also had a one night stand with another guy who was also at the party.


So you go to party in your wife's hometown and her sexual history becomes the topic of conversation. Her drunk friends tell you that your wife not only had a threesome once upon a time but also an ONS with a guy that happened to be at the party. It makes you wonder how many guys she had sex with that weren’t at the party or where a third person wasn’t involved.

*At best maybe her ways were so wicked that your example and God inspired her to do this:*

“A born-again virgin (also known as a secondary virgin or renewed virgin) is a person who, after having engaged in sexual intercourse, makes some type of commitment not to be sexually active again until marriage (or some other defined point in the future or indefinitely), whether for religious, moral, practical, or other reasons.”

LOOK HERE: A Renewed Virginity « Power to Change


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## anchorwatch

If this is true, why was she so afraid to tell you? 

Why didn't she trust you wouldn't act adversely towards her?

Don't you make her feel safe enough to discuss past immature behaviors?

Does she think you too perfect for her?

Maybe you should examine your ego.


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## Graywolf2

Chaparral said:


> BTW, how on earth did you react when people started telling you about her past. Who does that? What should have happened should have left some blood on the floor.


The way I can see it happening is the OP making some comment that implied how inexperienced his wife was before marriage. Her drunken hometown friends start laughing and point out the guy she had the ONS with and add that she had a threesome.


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## Hicks

ReidWright said:


> well, the bible says she should be stoned death. so divorce would be more merciful, right?
> 
> Deuteronomy 22:
> 
> "If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the young woman’s virginity can be found, she shall be brought to the door of her father’s house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done an outrageous thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father’s house. You must purge the evil from among you."


He didnt' say he was a christian.
However, I'm still certain that all Christians I have ever met do not believe it would be right to stone this woman to death.


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## jld

Chaparral said:


> A lot depends on your confidence level in yourself.


:iagree:


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## koukisdad

Christian , jewish, muslim , it doesn't matter ...

she lied on him on something he cares a lot about ;i believe she should have confessed about it at aisle at most ; if he refused her he is the ******* ; but now he might forgive ... but never forget .


If she otherwise made his life great ; she deserve to stay ...


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## Q tip

How can one date for several years and not know about their partner. That's what I don't get. Was he that superficial? 

Then discover the mass murderer? Was she getting some all along? After all, she was respecting this dudes beliefs, and hers too.

I don't get it.


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## MattMatt

kevin1986 said:


> hello everyone,
> 
> I wanted to get peoples views on my wife dishonesty about something very important to me, i am a religious young man brought up in a different way from almost all my friends and wifes friends.
> 
> Before my wife and i married we talked about passed relationships and i told her i dated 3 women and never slept with any of them because i do not believe in premarital sex,when i met my wife we where just friends and she new about my beliefs, she didnt belive at first seing that it was easy for me to pick up women and am not the shy type, well what a suprise when she told me she was also saving her self for marriage, but i was looking for more than just her being a virgin i needed to know her heart, after dating for 2 years i new i wanted to marry her because was different from the other women i dated,kind,loving,caring,understanding and to top it off she was a virgin.
> 
> well fast forward we have been married 5 years, with a 4 year old son, last week we went to her home town and i was chatting to her friends who had too many to drink, i found out that my wife had a threesome with the guy who she claimed was nothing but a good friend through out our courtship, she also had a one night stand with another guy who was also at the party. at home i comfronted her about everything and she admitted that she lied because she loved me and she didnt want to be judged by her past. how could she lie to me about something so important to me, why didnt she let me make up my own decision to stay or not? i just need advice on why she did this to me, am not perfect but i have never done anything with anybody sexual not because i couldnt, but because i choose not to, how do i know she doesnt compare me with her past lovers? i dont want to compete with the past. its not fair, she duped me into marrying her.


So, you are a religous young man, huh, Kevin?

Really? And what religion is that?

A religion that preaches compassion, forgiveness and grace?

Well, that can't be right, because you are showing *none* of those to your wife. Are you? 

There's an old saying: "Whilst boys are content to marry virgins, a real man is happy to marry a woman."


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## bryanp

Kevin,

I seriously doubt that you know the whole truth. Think about this if you will. You go a party in her home town and immediately find out she had a threesome with some guy and find out another guy is at the party that had sex with her also. Do you honestly think that these are the only two guys she ever had sex with? I seriously doubt it and so should you. My guess is that this is just the tip of the iceberg.


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## Zouz

I don't want to defend Kevin ; but as I understood his concern is that their marriage is built based on a lie;
he might be able to digest that she is not a virgin if she told him by herself...

If I misunderstood it then Matt Matt is right ...


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## warlock07

Hicks said:


> From a religious perspective things are very clear that you should preserve your family and your marriage. If you are using religion as an execuse to destroy your marriage, that is the exact opposite of being religious.


this is stupid..

don't be a smart ass.


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## kevin1986

Am more worried about her compairing me to her exes, i keep thinking what else is she not telling me. But is it fair to me to be swindled like this?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## FrazzledSadHusband

Your story has similar points to mine - http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/204514-what-do-i-do-am-i-unreasonable.html

While I forgave my wife for lying, what built up resentment in me was how she has let her past affect our marriage, and refuses to see a counselor.

Did you & wife have counseling before getting married? If so, did the pastor ask if there were any things that needed to be addressed? That is what stings, the person you are letting get close to you, LIED to you. Makes you wonder, is she now lying about the new guy at work just being a good friend??

As other threads have talked about, how are you going to feel when you find out that while you have been wanting to get a little freaky in the bedroom, and she says she would NEVER do that, you then find out that she did ALL THAT & MORE with her threesome buddies.

In a marriage both partners need to be considerate of the other. Her brushing it off as no big deal shows she doesn't care for your feelings. Finding out before marriage allows you to make an informed decision. Setting the hook via marriage & then not caring is WRONG!

It seems like to some women, "It's just sex, something to use to get what you want". Probably the same with some men. While to others, sexual purity, honesty and sexual intimacy are VERY important. No one is perfect, but allowing her to brush your concerns off will just make her lose more respect for you then she already has.

Repentance has to be there for forgiveness. Go to IC for yourself, and be aware that there is a good chance that some of her past activities are going to negatively affect how she views sex with you.

Check out http://forgivenwife.com/

The author of the site writes some very good articles on how her past affected her marriage even when her husband didn't bring it up. Her own memories where causing issues.

Lastly, this will cause issues, but you may need to ask "Are there any other people we currently hang out with that you screwed, that I don't know about?" Finding out more later is just gonna muddy the waters again.

I, like you, was a virgin when I got married because I believed that the "two flesh shalll become one" was a very important part of the bible.


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## ThePheonix

Kev my man, when I was young like you an old boy I grew up with married this chick who claimed to have only slept with an ex boyfriend that was killed in VietNam. He found out later she may have got it on with another guy before she married him. Remember, this was back when being a virgin was cool. 
At any rate he spent years worrying and querying her about it despite her being a good wife and bearing him three kids; one went to West Point. He even went to counseling about it. 
A couple or three years ago, they found a spot on his lung that later turned out to be benign. He now realizes what he's got is not all that bad despite what the real story may be. He is one of my best friends but I'm happy he has now quit obsessing and has shut up about it.


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## Blondilocks

No, it isn't fair that you were conned. You thought you were buying a brand-new Mercedes and find out that it's only a used Kia.

You might want to be checked for STDs and insist your wife do also.

Have no advice as to how to calm your fears of being compared or how to regain that feeling of 'onlys' that you shared with your wife. Marriage counseling may be able to help you with that. I would hold her feet to the fire for the selfishness of her actions.


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## Q tip

And everyone forgot to say... "DNA the kid..."


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## MattMatt

kevin1986 said:


> Am more worried about her compairing me to her exes, i keep thinking what else is she not telling me. But is it fair to me to be swindled like this?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She married you, she bore your child.

I think you are comparing very favourably, to be honest. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## richie33

Thats some friends your wife has. What kind of friend tell there friends husband " hey you know your wife was pretty easy back in the day".


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## Blondilocks

This isn't the first thread where a guy goes to a party and finds out his wife was a party girl. Why don't women start threads where the wife goes to a party and finds out her husband was a 'dog'?

Guess some guys just like to brag and don't care who hears or gets hurt.


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## richie33

Blondilocks said:


> This isn't the first thread where a guy goes to a party and finds out his wife was a party girl. Why don't women start threads where the wife goes to a party and finds out her husband was a 'dog'?
> 
> Guess some guys just like to brag and don't care who hears or gets hurt.


So the OP is not justified in his feelings cause men have done it also?


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## MattMatt

richie33 said:


> So the OP is not justified in his feelings cause men have done it also?


He might be justified in his feelings, but he should not let his wife's past actions define their life together as a family.

Also, gossips can exaggerate, so the full truth needs to be brought out, no matter how much it might hurt.

If Kevin can't get over it, he should consider divorce,* but only so long as he works hard to be the best co-parent in the word of co-parentage. *


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## richie33

MattMatt said:


> He might be justified in his feelings, but he should not let his wife's past actions define their life together as a family.
> 
> Also, gossips can exaggerate, so the full truth needs to be brought out, no matter how much it might hurt.
> 
> If Kevin can't get over it, he should consider divorce,* but only so long as he works hard to be the best co-parent in the word of co-parentage. *


I agree. If some "friend" of my wife starts talking reckless of the mother of my two childrens past, first thing is going to happen is he will be picking up his teeth off the floor for talking out of his face of her then me and the wife can sort the rest out.


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## Roselyn

What bothers you is that you were deceived into marrying an image of a girl that was false. You believed that you married a choir girl and found out in a gathering that you married a party girl who had wild sexual escapades. Frankly, you were embarrassed as you placed your wife in a pedestal and her drunken friends knocked her off the platform. You felt mocked and humiliated in this gathering.

You have children with your wife and you must decide where to go with this scenario. I don't think that you can look at your wife the same way as before you knew her past. She is just another woman with flaws. Her past made her ordinary to you. In your mind, she is no longer "that special one". You can continue to be tormented, get divorced, or work on the reality of your marriage. You need to see a psychologist to work on your mental framework.


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## Dyokemm

Kevin,

I think the only real concern is your W seems to have no problem lying to you if she feels it benefits her or gets her what she wants.

The worries about comparisons to past lovers, etc, are not worth your time to dwell on.

They are just your insecurities, stemming in part from the fact that YOU have no past experiences for comparison...in other words you are obsessing about possible comparisons in her head because you simply have no way of understanding what the possibility of having a comparison is like.

Quiet these thoughts down (I know easier said than done)...they are meaningless noise and have zero impact on your own standing as a man....you can't base your self-image and pride on what MIGHT be in someone else's mind or thoughts.

Have the confidence to know your own value.

And then focus on your real issue....which is actually NOT that she had a past you did not know about before your M.

The problem is she has (note the present tense here) zero problem feeding you lies (and there is probably more she is still hiding) so that she can get what SHE wants, regardless of the pain and problems she knows these lies will cause you if they are discovered.

I think you should tell her that you have no intention of staying married to a liar and deceiver...she either comes clean about her past behavior, apologizes for it (not her past, but the lying), and gets counseling to understand and fix why she can so cold-heartedly deceive and manipulate a person she claims to love, or you will consider D.

If she doesn't get counseling and address this ability to easily lie to you to get what SHE wants, there will always be the possibility that this tendency will rear itself in your M in the future, in an A or other such betrayal of your trust.


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## KingwoodKev

It sounds like she "used to be" a fun girl. She didn't tell you because decent men will never marry fun girls. Those are girls who party, have a lot of sex, do threesomes, foursomes, more-somes. We've all known fun girls. They're good for fun but they're not the marrying kind. I'd bet if you dig you'll find more. Fun girls never lose that appetite for "fun."


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## richie33

KingwoodKev said:


> It sounds like she "used to be" a fun girl. She didn't tell you because decent men will never marry fun girls. Those are girls who party, have a lot of sex, do threesomes, foursomes, more-somes. We've all known fun girls. They're good for fun but they're not the marrying kind. I'd bet if you dig you'll find more. Fun girls never lose that appetite for "fun."


So the men these women have fun with get a pass because "men will be men"?


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## ConanHub

MattMatt said:


> He might be justified in his feelings, but he should not let his wife's past actions define their life together as a family.
> 
> Also, gossips can exaggerate, so the full truth needs to be brought out, no matter how much it might hurt.
> 
> If Kevin can't get over it, he should consider divorce,* but only so long as he works hard to be the best co-parent in the word of co-parentage. *


Matt. You are very clearly missing one out of two points the OP made. Being compared to past lovers, threesomes included, that you never knew existed is bad enough.

The first point is don't fvcking lie to con someone into a marriage.

I'm sure men do this sometimes but it seems far more common with women thinking it fine to lie their asses off and deceive and manipulate a man into marriage. That is most definitely NOT love!!!

That is complete selfishness and self centered behavior. This woman laid a foundation of pathetic deceit for her marriage and never repented or tried to make it better. You cannot build a good marriage on manipulation and lies!

This woman needs to grow up and deserves to lose the marriage she lied to obtain.

OP. I feel for you. I am not affected by sexual history but lies really piss me off. Lies piss everyone off actually.

Really, the only thing that matters right now is your opinions and needs.

Some self examination is in order for you. Take some time by yourself or with counsel to consider what is best for you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## KingwoodKev

richie33 said:


> So the men these women have fun with get a pass because "men will be men"?


Guys who use fun girls are creeps and snakes. That's why these creeps told this husband about his wife's past. They're hoping to stir things up so they can have another romp with her. Don't think for a second I'd cut these a-holes slack. If I was in the same bar I might end up popping one or more of them.


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## Q tip

Not wanting to be judged by her past she says...

Funny how people justify lying.

How else does one judge? By the future?


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## bfree

Blondilocks said:


> This isn't the first thread where a guy goes to a party and finds out his wife was a party girl. Why don't women start threads where the wife goes to a party and finds out her husband was a 'dog'?
> 
> Guess some guys just like to brag and don't care who hears or gets hurt.


In my case I wanted my wife to know everything about me, good and bad. I told her that I had been with many women but only had an emotional connection with two, her and the ex W that cheated on me. This was the unvarnished truth and seemed to satisfy her need to know about my past. Is this because I'm a man? Is it because I am pathological about honesty? Is it because I feel the only thing that matters is how I view myself and really don't care what anyone what thinks about me? I just wish people would think things through before they do things to violate someone's trust.


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## the guy

KingwoodKev said:


> Fun girls never lose that appetite for "fun."


That's why guys that aren't so decent (like me) marry fun girls.

And God knows I have payed my dues for this decision!

But Kingwood...you are correct sir. The trick is being the only guy to benefit from this fun girl when she is 50!


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## happyman64

Kevin

You set the bar too high my friend.

I used to think like you. 

I too married a virgin. But I wasn't.

Yet she married me.....

If it is the lies that bother you then yes you have been swindled.

But like I said you set the bar too high.

If it is the comparison about you versus the other guys then all I will say is it is all in your mind. Get over it.

Because she got over them and married you!

Now if your wife has been a great wife love her like no other.

And be happy that you both chose each other.

Read some of these threads and you might just realize how much better off you are.

Talk to your wife about why she felt the need to lie to you.

HM


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## Dogbert

Even if she had been a virgin when you married her, what makes you think she wouldn't have thoughts about what it would be like to have sex with other men?

My point is that you can't stop what other people are thinking nor live obsessing over things you can't control, that is unless you want to drive yourself crazy.


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## ConanHub

She had no other woman or wild threesomes to get over from his side. She is a liar, she is probably one of those gals that didn't mind fvcking around it even being passed around and then.picked"Mr. Safe" to settle down with. Happens a lot. She is no prize.

Mrs. Conan had a torrid past but didn't lie her ass off to get me. She is a fantastic wife but our relationship has been built on honesty. Without that, you've got nothing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dogbert

Look nobody can blame you if you choose to D her for lying, but be absolutely sure that it is because that it is a violation of your core principles and not because you are worried about being compared to other men in the sex department.


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## EleGirl

anchorwatch said:


> If this is true, why was she so afraid to tell you?
> 
> Why didn't she trust you wouldn't act adversely towards her?
> 
> Don't you make her feel safe enough to discuss past immature behaviors?
> 
> Does she think you too perfect for her?
> 
> Maybe you should examine your ego.


It sounds like he's pretty clear that he let her know up front that the would drop her if she were not a virgin.


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## tom67

ConanHub said:


> She had no other woman or wild threesomes to get over from his side. She is a liar, she is probably one of those gals that didn't mind fvcking around it even being passed around and then.picked"Mr. Safe" to settle down with. Happens a lot. She is no prize.
> 
> Mrs. Conan had a torrid past but didn't lie her ass off to get me. She is a fantastic wife but our relationship has been built on honesty. Without that, you've got nothing.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sigh...
Here is what you do.
Go to walmart and get a DNA test for the kid and do it in front of her.
Her reaction or lack of one will be telling.


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## tom67

KingwoodKev said:


> It sounds like she "used to be" a fun girl. She didn't tell you because decent men will never marry fun girls. Those are girls who party, have a lot of sex, do threesomes, foursomes, more-somes. We've all known fun girls. They're good for fun but they're not the marrying kind. I'd bet if you dig you'll find more. Fun girls never lose that appetite for "fun."


Hit it out of the ball park :iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:
Hey some people aren't made for marrying.
Nothing wrong with it.


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## ifweonly

I want to make sure that I am correct here --- you have been married 5 years and this "Fun Stuff" that your wife had was before you were married. Somehow, she "failed" to tell you about her life before meeting you? In fact she claimed to be a virgin when you questioned her before the ring went on and promises made?

I married a Christian woman and neither of us had sex before marriage but back in the dark ages when we met, the fear was not necessarily premarital sex so much but more the fear of pregnancy. A child out of wedlock was not accepted as it appears to be today.

If I had found out years later that she had sex with one of the characters that she dated before our marriage, considering that the past could not be changed, I would celebrate the fact that I was the one that had the privilege and opportunity to help her develop into the wonderful person that she is today; the other guys can just eat their heart out! 

I am a Christian as well and would harbor no malice towards her irrespective of having no knowledge of her sexual activity before marriage. I believe there are more important challenges in marriage than getting all twisted up and blowing up a marriage over your wife not telling you about this issue. 

The way that I see your situation is that you have three choices: you can either stone/hang her (if you are still living in the Old Testament), divorce her or forgive her and celebrate the love that you both have enjoyed in your marriage to this point.

Good luck and God Bless you and your wife!


----------



## EleGirl

kevin1986 said:


> Am more worried about her compairing me to her exes, i keep thinking what else is she not telling me. But is it fair to me to be swindled like this?


People who have had more than one sex partner really do not put energy into comparing them. She obviously considers you the superior man, she married you, has a child with you and is still with you.

I agree that it's easy for you to now think "what else is she not telling me"? You two are going to have to come to come up with an agreement about honesty.

Take a look at this. It's the policy that radical honesty that would help the two of you to implement in your marriage.

The Policy of Radical Honesty

There is one thing that you have to keep in mind is that if you want someone to be radically honest with you, you have to make it safe for them to be honest.

I don't know what religion you practice, but in some religions the idea of forgiveness and redemption are a cornerstone. If you can find it in yourself to forgive her and allow her redemption, then it will go a long way to build a marriage in which you both will feel safe to be radically honest with each other. 

This is a huge test of your relationship. You are of course completely within your right to divorce her for lying about something that she knew is so important to you. 

Swindled? Interesting choice of words.


----------



## workindad

OP- I am confused a little

Did she have sex with any of these other men while she was dating you?

Yes, you were lied to and mislead. You have a right to feel lied to.

Only you can decide what is right for you.

She certainly knew what she was hiding and there is likely more that you don't know. I doubt she started with a 3 some and a ONS

Have you asked her to tell you the complete truth? Even if these guys were before you two dated, are there any others since that she hasn't told you about? 

She obviously knew this was important to you and she has proven that she has no problem lying to you about sex with other men.

I could see how this could damage the trust in a relationship.

If there has been no cheating since the two of you got together, perhaps you can work to rebuild the trust. But ultimately that is your decision to make.


----------



## tom67

workindad said:


> OP- I am confused a little
> 
> Did she have sex with any of these other men while she was dating you?
> 
> Yes, you were lied to and mislead. You have a right to feel lied to.
> 
> Only you can decide what is right for you.
> 
> She certainly knew what she was hiding and there is likely more that you don't know. I doubt she started with a 3 some and a ONS
> 
> Have you asked her to tell you the complete truth? Even if these guys were before you two dated, are there any others since that she hasn't told you about?
> 
> She obviously knew this was important to you and she has proven that she has no problem lying to you about sex with other men.
> 
> I could see how this could damage the trust in a relationship.
> 
> If there has been no cheating since the two of you got together, perhaps you can work to rebuild the trust. But ultimately that is your decision to make.


Lying by omission makes on think what else has she lied about?:scratchhead:
Take your time on this one imo.
That's all I have.


----------



## altawa

ConanHub said:


> Matt. You are very clearly missing one out of two points the OP made. Being compared to past lovers, threesomes included, that you never knew existed is bad enough.
> 
> The first point is don't fvcking lie to con someone into a marriage.
> 
> I'm sure men do this sometimes but it seems far more common with women thinking it fine to lie their asses off and deceive and manipulate a man into marriage. That is most definitely NOT love!!!
> 
> That is complete selfishness and self centered behavior. This woman laid a foundation of pathetic deceit for her marriage and never repented or tried to make it better. You cannot build a good marriage on manipulation and lies!
> 
> This woman needs to grow up and deserves to lose the marriage she lied to obtain.
> 
> OP. I feel for you. I am not affected by sexual history but lies really piss me off. Lies piss everyone off actually.
> 
> Really, the only thing that matters right now is your opinions and needs.
> 
> Some self examination is in order for you. Take some time by yourself or with counsel to consider what is best for you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree with this 100%.


----------



## Dogbert

Maybe she became "born again" and got a born again hymen.


----------



## kevin1986

so what most of you are suggesting is that, her past doesnt matter? and i should just move on? i cant divorce her because shes the mother of my child. am just stuck.


----------



## Dogbert

I'd say divorce her for lying and deceiving which is not what love is truly about. If she loved you she would have come clean about her sexual past from the get go but she didn't and had to resort to lies and deception to keep you and to marry you.

Are you ready for that or are you sitting on the fence?


----------



## manticore

kevin1986 said:


> so what most of you are suggesting is that, her past doesnt matter? and i should just move on? i cant divorce her because shes the mother of my child. am just stuck.


*No no, I disagree, if I understand it correctly the both encounters she had were while you were already in a realtionship with the understanding that there will be no sex until marriage, so what she did was pure and plain cheating.*

from that point her bahaviour is doubtful to the point that you can not be sure that she has not done it again after marriage.

you have the right to do whatever you feel will give you happiness, if forgiving her and continuing your marriage is what will make you happy and fullfilled then R if not then divorce, if you ask me you can not believe from now on whatever she says that easily, she can easily be in the range of what we call a serial cheater.


----------



## EleGirl

kevin1986 said:


> so what most of you are suggesting is that, her past doesnt matter? and i should just move on? i cant divorce her because shes the mother of my child. am just stuck.


How old are the two of you? 

We are saying that it's your decision. People are telling you what they would do in this sort of situation.


----------



## EleGirl

kevin1986 said:


> so what most of you are suggesting is that, her past doesnt matter? and i should just move on? i cant divorce her because shes the mother of my child. am just stuck.


Can you please clarify a few other things that would help here?

When she had these encounters with the other guys, was she dating you? Or did these things happen before she was dating you and in committed relationship with you?

Who was the person who told you about her past experiences? Was is a female, a male who did not have sex with her, or a guy who had one of these encounters with her?


----------



## Dogbert

Ask yourself, how would you react if tonight your wife told you that she wanted a divorce? Would you be ready for it? Would you fight to save your marriage or acknowledge her desire and proceed to call a divorce attorney? Maybe your answers can point you to where you want to go.


----------



## kevin1986

these encounters happened before we met when she was at college


----------



## EleGirl

Ok, so she did not cheat. She lied about her past sexual experience.

What are your thoughts about all this now?


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## TRy

kevin1986 said:


> these encounters happened before we met when she was at college


 She lied about her relationship with, and stayed in contact with, someone that she had a threesome with. Both of the guys at the party that had sex with her, knew the truth but you were played the fool at the party by not knowing. When she tries to tell you that this all happened in the past, reminder her that although the sex may have happened in the past, the lies did not as she was still lying about her relationship with these man as recently as the party. You targeted the real issue correctly when you titled this thread "my wife is a liar". She is a liar, and not years ago, but right now.


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## italianjob

I think most are missing the point here.
It's not really about religion or virginity or the importance of past sexual experience, the point is she openly lied and said she was something she wasn't (a virgin) to con the OP to be interested in a relationship with her and then marry her.

This is not something unimportant. If I lie about my education degrees and start working as a dentist, it doesn't matter if I'm good or not at doing it, if I get caught I'll lose my job, probably go to prison and get sued.

It may not be cheating but I see it as a serious matter anyway, and absolutely grounds for divorce, If the OP feels that's what he wants.

That said, what really makes me wonder is OP's insistence about being compared with previous partners.
Now... If you tell me you want to end the marriage because you were originally victim of a scam designed to make you marry her, I understand and can't help but second that, but if the problem is the "competition" with previous partners, well... 
1. It would be a far weaker reason to end a marriage.
2. She had a child with you and is still your wife after 5 years, she was experienced but it looks like you compared quite well.

Now about what would I do if I were you:
- I would be angry, that's for sure. It's a big lie and done with full intention (she didn't just omit the truth, or led you to believe somethinq without really saying it, she outright lied). So I would need to cool down and, later, hear her true motivations for that behaviour.
- I would consider the fact that what was stolen can't be given back. Even if I divorced her, I couldn't offer my virginity to another girl, because now I would be a man with a past and a son with another woman.
- Most of all, I would try to make an honest assessment of the quality of my marriage, how good a wife she has been through the years, and if this marriage is good enough to keep.
- Try to understand who this person really is, her past must have been quite colorful (I can't imagine how friends that meet the husband for the first time start talking about her sexual past, unless that was what she was mostly known for), so there must be a reason why she decided to pursue someone with religious belief like your own. Talk a lot with her, try to understand if she can be trusted going forward or not.


----------



## italianjob

There are some things that don't quite add up in this story.

1. She sounds like someone who went around a bit in her day, who had no problem knowing people. Why someone like that would go to the length of lying about being a virgin to have a guy date her. It sounds like a desperate move but she must have been quite Young at the time...

2. Did she manage to keep OP away from her friends for all these years, were they in on her "scam"?
If the first is true why she let him meet them now? She didn't care anymore if the truth came out?


----------



## Locke.Stratos

There's nothing that frightens me more in a partner|spouse than the ability to lie and withhold a huge, significant secret and live their everyday life unaffected by it.

To anyone that thinks otherwise, yes this is a huge deal.

You have every right to be angry and upset about everything that you've learned and what it entails.

There are certain aspects of a relationship and a person that we place great value upon. These differ from one person to the next. Some place great value on appearence, others religion and spirituality, education, humour, kindness, virtue, earning potential and shared interests to name a few.

Your wife lied to you from the onset about something that she was aware meant a great deal of value to you. You as her boyfriend, fiancé and husband had every right to this knowledge and she willfully kept it from you.

Is it about ego and pride? Yes off course, why wouldn't it be? We are prideful and ego driven on occassion. That is on the surface but underneath is a deep layer of hurt and betrayal.

I would imagine that knowing that you and your wife have only been with each other held special meaning to you and it was pretty romantic and endearing.

That 'first time' moment that you thought you shared together, didn't happen. The times you've thought and expressed that you were each others' only or that she told you so, false. Every single moment where she proclaimed and expressed this sentiment was a straight up lie from her. She is not the woman that you thought you knew, she didn't change like most on here have experienced. She kept who she really was from you.

Knowing that not only is it not true but that she lied about her life shatters that special bond you thought you shared and reveals her as a person of low moral character with regard to her deception. What can you trust about what she has told you if she could so easily and casually lie about something so important?

I'm not sure what advice to give you, I just what you to know that you have every right to be upset and feel the way that you do. 

Who cares how the topic arose in conversation, people talk. It's a fact of life, that's not the issue.



kevin1986 said:


> she is asking for my forgivness, telling me its the past,to me its the present and it hurts to know that other men know about your wife in that way, is it my ego? your damn right it is.


She's asking for your forgiveness, I don't even know what that means in a situation like this or how one would go about earning the broken trust back and showing true remorse. It's not in the past, this is information that is affecting you in the present and influencing your emotions and thoughts.

I would say don't obsess but also do not allow her to sweep this under the rug and behave like what she did is not a big deal.

How do you want to proceed, what do you think needs to happen and what do you want (to do)?


----------



## workindad

kevin1986 said:


> so what most of you are suggesting is that, her past doesnt matter? and i should just move on? i cant divorce her because shes the mother of my child. am just stuck.




No, I did not suggest that.

If you are miserable and cannot get past this, then make plans to move on as staying will likely not be healthy for anyone involved.


----------



## Mustang1968

Everyone lies. Show me someone who says that they've never lied and I'll show you a liar. Some lies are bigger than others but still we all lie. There was no infidelity involved so it all boils down to the lie. How far into the relationship were you when she told you the lie? If you had been dating a while it's possible that she had fallen in love with you and didn't want to risk losing you. 

People will tell you that a lie is a lie but I don't believe that's true. I think the motive for a lie is more important than the lie. A lie to spare someone's feelings is different from a lie to advance in someone's career or gain some advantage. So the question becomes whether she lied to "dupe" you into marriage or to keep from losing someone she loved. 

Did she lie because she was ashamed? We all have things that we have done that we are ashamed of or embarrassed by, things that we would prefer others not know about us. Maybe this was one of hers. 

The person that said she should be stoned and quoted Deuteronomy didn't bother to quote the New Testament "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone". Ask yourself why she lied. If it was because she loved you and didn't want to risk losing you then move on. If not then you have a much more difficult decision to make.


----------



## WeeTry

Are you people really asking women if they are virgin and how many men they have slept with? Why do you even care? 

Your wife did not tell you because of your religion. And I would blame you for this. It's just not fair that a girl must meet conditions of ur religion so you would marry her.

I personally don't expect woman I hang out with to be virgin. If she is, well nice, if not, who cares. I only care that she is STD clean. Rest does not matter.


----------



## bfree

WeeTry said:


> Are you people really asking women if they are virgin and how many men they have slept with? Why do you even care?
> 
> Your wife did not tell you because of your religion. And I would blame you for this. It's just not fair that a girl must meet conditions of ur religion so you would marry her.
> 
> I personally don't expect woman I hang out with to be virgin. If she is, well nice, if not, who cares. I only care that she is STD clean. Rest does not matter.


I wouldn't care but the OP obviously does and did during their courtship. My wife cared while we were dating and point blank asked me how many women I had slept with. I wasn't offended and answered truthfully. Should it be any different for men?

Btw, I don't think it should matter how many people someone slept with regardless of gender. But lying about it is not okay if you want a good solid relationship.


----------



## that.girl

kevin1986 said:


> so what most of you are suggesting is that, her past doesnt matter? and i should just move on? i cant divorce her because shes the mother of my child. am just stuck.


Well if you don't want to divorce, then you have a choice -

Talk to her about why she felt the need to lie, and how it makes you feel,

Or hang it over her head until she gets fed up and leaves. 


I'm not trying to be cold, but if you're committed to staying, you have to work it out between the two of you. If you don't deal with it and let it go, it will only get worse. You have a right to be upset about this, but at some point you'll have to get past that, and I think really digging into the reasons why she lied might help you get that closure.


----------



## Thor

kevin1986 said:


> Am more worried about her compairing me to her exes, i keep thinking what else is she not telling me. But is it fair to me to be swindled like this?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Kevin, I understand your issues. For perspective, a brief explanation of my situation.

I was a virgin when I met my wife, she had 3 previous lovers that she admitted to. Neither one of us was looking for a permanent relationship but it ended up that way. So one difference for me compared to you is that I was not saving myself for marriage. I also knew a few things about her previous bf's and that her relationships were actively sexual.

Being a male virgin who marries a woman who had several previous lovers does create some unique issues. If your marriage is otherwise good, and if your sex life with her is vibrant, the truth is that you compare very favorably with her previous men. Though in your mind you may be taking the best attributes you imagine each of them had, and comparing yourself to the amalgamated super lover you think she has in her mind when she thinks of her past.

Nobody can compare the the best attributes of a collection of others. One of them might have been very muscular. One might have been very smart. Another might have driven a really cool car. Nobody can compete with all of that together. But your wife doesn't remember it that way, she remembers each of them individually. So the muscular guy was a cheating jerk, the smart guy was dull, and the guy with the cool car was an idiot!

The problem is that you don't have a similar set of experiences to inform you of what it is like to have ex lovers in your past. So you (and I) can't rationalize that the wife isn't really thinking about her previous lovers because we know we aren't thinking about our previous lovers either. Instead, sometimes we are thinking about her previous lovers!

I think it is meaningless advice to say "stop worrying about it, because she chose you". My advice is 2 fold. First, measure her by her behavior in your relationship. This tells you how she feels about you. Second, given the deception involved, you two need to talk this out.

First then, have you had a good relationship? Does she show affection towards you? Does she respect you, laugh with you, want to spend time with you? These are things she can't fake for years. So if your marriage is good, you know she isn't thinking about those other guys.

I'll cover the deception and talking about it in another post.


----------



## KingwoodKev

that.girl said:


> Well if you don't want to divorce, then you have a choice -
> 
> Talk to her about why she felt the need to lie, and how it makes you feel,
> 
> Or hang it over her head until she gets fed up and leaves.
> 
> 
> I'm not trying to be cold, but if you're committed to staying, you have to work it out between the two of you. If you don't deal with it and let it go, it will only get worse. You have a right to be upset about this, but at some point you'll have to get past that, and I think really digging into the reasons why she lied might help you get that closure.



Great advice. I'm struggling with this in my R right now. I know I can't hold the EA/PA over my wife's head if we're truly going to R but dog gone it it's hard to get over it.


----------



## Thor

kevin1986 said:


> so what most of you are suggesting is that, her past doesnt matter? and i should just move on? i cant divorce her because shes the mother of my child. am just stuck.


If you have decided you cannot divorce her, you have zero power to really get the truth or to change things.


----------



## Thor

Locke.Stratos said:


> I'm not sure what advice to give you, I just what you to know that you have every right to be upset and feel the way that you do.


:iagree: This is a cornerstone philosophy which can get lost in these threads sometimes. The OP has every right to feel however he does and to take whatever decision he believes is best.



Locke.Stratos said:


> Who cares how the topic arose in conversation, people talk. It's a fact of life, that's not the issue.


In my case, my wife's friends all presumed I was fully informed already. When people get together with old friends after some years, they tend to talk about all the fun times and crazy things that happened.


----------



## Thor

Kevin, I think some IC for you would be helpful. Not because you're crazy, but because you need to talk some of this out with someone who knows how to help you process it.

Probably there is some dissonance in your mind on several topics. This confusion and anguish is resolvable, but you have to identify the specifics which are in play. I suspect you projected your values and beliefs onto her, probably with her willing assistance because she didn't tell you the full truth.

First, your wife is not whom you thought she was. She is not truthful. As someone else pointed out, she in fact has been lying to you the whole time. Every single day was an opportunity to tell you the truth, but she chose not to. She obviously hoped the lies would go undiscovered forever. My guess is that you were quite open with her about your past and your belief system, and so you assumed she was being equally open with you about her past and her belief system.

So there can be lies of commission, such as telling you she was a virgin (did she tell you that specifically?), and there are lies of omission such as failing to volunteer important information which you don't specifically ask for.

Yes this always leads to the betrayed wondering what else don't they know about.

Secondly, your wife may have a very different view of sex than you do. You view sex as sacred between married people. She may or may not have that belief now. Her history suggests she did not have that view when she was younger. This may be an area you projected your beliefs onto her, not understanding that people can have very different views of sexuality. And, those different views are not necessarily better, worse, good, or bad. Just different. So now your marital sex may not seem the same to you, because you assume she is in reality not seeing it the way you do. But you don't know that. Her history suggests sex may just be sex to her. Or, sex may just be a tool of manipulation for her. Or, sex may be sacred but she did things in the past which went against her values (due to alcohol, peer pressure, etc).

Talking with a therapist can help you untangle your thoughts on these things, which will lead to some form of resolution for you. An IC will validate your feelings and thoughts, but will also challenge you to think about why you feel this way.

I also think MC later after some IC could be productive for both of you.


----------



## Graywolf2

kevin1986 said:


> these encounters happened before we met when she was at college


Some people think that’s what college is for. My son had a female friend in college that confided on her 18th birthday that she had been with 18 guys. Now she’s married with kids and acts like "Suzy Homemaker."



kevin1986 said:


> Well what a surprise when she told me she was also saving herself for marriage, but I was looking for more than just her being a virgin I needed to know her heart, after dating for 2 years I new I wanted to marry her because was different from the other women I dated, kind, loving, caring, understanding and to top it off she was a virgin.


How do you know she wasn’t getting her needs met else where for those two years? It’s kind of hard to stop “cold turkey” for two years after being a party animal.



Q tip said:


> And everyone forgot to say... "DNA the kid..."


You’re not testing your kid, you’re testing your wife. Buy a DNA kit at WalMart, Amazon or about any drug store for $30. Swab the inside of your cheek and the kids with a Q-tip. Send the kit with $130 more to a lab.


----------



## vellocet

kevin1986 said:


> Am more worried about her compairing me to her exes, i keep thinking what else is she not telling me. But is it fair to me to be swindled like this?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No, its not fair.

But let me clarify.

If she did these things while dating you, she cheated, which means you were much more than swindled.

If she did these things before dating you, then I generally say, the past is the past.

However, details matter. For example, it would bother me being with someone that had 3somes. That's just me. 

So IMO, you really can't blame someone for having a past. But are there certain parts that bother you? And did she do them while with you (may have been answered, but I haven't read that far in yet)

EDIT, ok, just read where they happened before you met. Well, everyone is different. I wouldn't be bothered by guys she was with. I would be bothered by the 3some, but again, that's me.


----------



## italianjob

Thor said:


> Kevin, I think some IC for you would be helpful. Not because you're crazy, but because you need to talk some of this out with someone who knows how to help you process it.
> 
> Probably there is some dissonance in your mind on several topics. This confusion and anguish is resolvable, but you have to identify the specifics which are in play. I suspect you projected your values and beliefs onto her, probably with her willing assistance because she didn't tell you the full truth.
> 
> First, your wife is not whom you thought she was. She is not truthful. As someone else pointed out, she in fact has been lying to you the whole time. Every single day was an opportunity to tell you the truth, but she chose not to. She obviously hoped the lies would go undiscovered forever. My guess is that you were quite open with her about your past and your belief system, and so you assumed she was being equally open with you about her past and her belief system.
> 
> So there can be lies of commission, such as telling you she was a virgin (did she tell you that specifically?), and there are lies of omission such as failing to volunteer important information which you don't specifically ask for.
> 
> Yes this always leads to the betrayed wondering what else don't they know about.
> 
> Secondly, your wife may have a very different view of sex than you do. You view sex as sacred between married people. She may or may not have that belief now. Her history suggests she did not have that view when she was younger. This may be an area you projected your beliefs onto her, not understanding that people can have very different views of sexuality. And, those different views are not necessarily better, worse, good, or bad. Just different. So now your marital sex may not seem the same to you, because you assume she is in reality not seeing it the way you do. But you don't know that. Her history suggests sex may just be sex to her. Or, sex may just be a tool of manipulation for her. Or, sex may be sacred but she did things in the past which went against her values (due to alcohol, peer pressure, etc).
> 
> Talking with a therapist can help you untangle your thoughts on these things, which will lead to some form of resolution for you. An IC will validate your feelings and thoughts, but will also challenge you to think about why you feel this way.
> 
> I also think MC later after some IC could be productive for both of you.


I Don't get it, _she_ lies to him and _h_e needs to go to IC?

The problem here is not that Kevin has projected his belief system onto his wife. The problem is that his wife TOLD him she had a similar belief system and it wasn't true.

If this marriage has to be saved they should talk to each other. Kevin should know what is his wife's view of the world and sex, he should know what where her motivations to carry on such a lie for so long, and they should find out if there is common ground to work on.

After they do this, MC might help, IC for each of them might be useful depending on the outcome of their face to face confrontation IMO.


----------



## vellocet

richie33 said:


> So the men these women have fun with get a pass because "men will be men"?


Absolutely not, and that's not what he was saying.

OP isn't married to these men.

The men that do this aren't fit to be married either.


----------



## italianjob

vellocet said:


> No, its not fair.
> 
> But let me clarify.
> 
> If she did these things while dating you, she cheated, which means you were much more than swindled.
> 
> If she did these things before dating you, then I generally say, the past is the past.
> 
> However, details matter. For example, it would bother me being with someone that had 3somes. That's just me.
> 
> So IMO, you really can't blame someone for having a past. But are there certain parts that bother you? And did she do them while with you (may have been answered, but I haven't read that far in yet)
> 
> EDIT, ok, just read where they happened before you met. Well, everyone is different. I wouldn't be bothered by guys she was with. I would be bothered by the 3some, but again, that's me.


I think the point is she lied to him telling him she was a virgin and she wasn't, and he wanted such a girl to get married.
So, in this case it's not a matter of letting the past being the past, it's a matter of a marriage based on a big lie.


----------



## vellocet

ifweonly said:


> If I had found out years later that she had sex with one of the characters that she dated before our marriage, considering that the past could not be changed, I would celebrate the fact that I was the one that had the privilege and opportunity to help her develop into the wonderful person that she is today; *the other guys can just eat their heart out! *



IF it all went down like that, the other guys wouldn't care. They got what they wanted. Jackasses like that don't care if they got away because they didn't want to keep them in the first place.


----------



## vellocet

italianjob said:


> I think the point is she lied to him telling him she was a virgin and she wasn't, and he wanted such a girl to get married.
> So, in this case it's not a matter of letting the past being the past, it's a matter of a marriage based on a big lie.


If this is true then she most definitely swindled him.


It would be even worse if she had told him she had never been with anyone. Is that what happened? If so, she trapped him.


----------



## that.girl

Someone mentioned a lie of omission, and i think that's an important point. Did she say "I am a virgin," or did she say "I'm saving myself for marriage"?

Is there any possibility she had a change of heart after college and was trying to clean up her act? It would still be misleading of her, but i feel like her intent is important.


----------



## manfromlamancha

Your wife didn't cheat on you or lie to you during your marriage about anything else. But I would understand about your being upset about not telling you about her past at the start and lying about it. However ... you seem to have a different set of problems with this ... and that is with being compared to other lovers. This is not healthy on your part and you really need to get over this as she chose you over all those other guys! So while I understand that she lied at the start about her past, the problem you have is not one that you should be having.


----------



## vellocet

that.girl said:


> Someone mentioned a lie of omission, and i think that's an important point. Did she say "I am a virgin," or did she say "I'm saving myself for marriage"?
> 
> Is there any possibility she had a change of heart after college and was trying to clean up her act? It would still be misleading of her, but i feel like her intent is important.


I agree. If she knew that he didn't want a party girl and someone like minded as him and told him she had never been with anyone else, that is the problem.

If it was she was never asked about her past, then she didn't do anything wrong.


----------



## italianjob

that.girl said:


> Someone mentioned a lie of omission, and i think that's an important point. Did she say "I am a virgin," or did she say "I'm saving myself for marriage"?
> 
> Is there any possibility she had a change of heart after college and was trying to clean up her act? It would still be misleading of her, but i feel like her intent is important.


Choice of word would give her a way to say she didn't lie, but it would be a scam anyway, If a girl tells you "I'm saving myself for marriage" you will get the message she is a virgin.

It would be interesting to know her intent anyway, since it looks like this talk took place before they started dating, as to why she felt so important to get this guy to date her, at the cost of misleading him into thinking she was a virgin.


----------



## Observer

This is insane. Are you happy? Do you have any indication she has not been a good wife? Seriously, she was ashamed of her past, big deal. She lied...oh the horror! Have you never told a lie? Your marriage was not built on lies, unless you got married solely because she was a Virgin. And if that was the case...you are crazy. As far as her comparing you...really? Have confidence in yourself man!


----------



## that.girl

italianjob said:


> Choice of word would give her a way to say she didn't lie, but it would be a scam anyway, If a girl tells you "I'm saving myself for marriage" you will get the message she is a virgin.
> 
> It would be interesting to know her intent anyway, since it looks like this talk took place before they started dating, as to why she felt so important to get this guy to date her, at the cost of misleading him into thinking she was a virgin.


I agree. I just think her choice of words, and the possibility that he made an assumption about her history, is important. What if she just said "I want to wait until we're married" and he assumed that meant she had always waited? He doesn't make this very clear.


----------



## vellocet

Observer said:


> This is insane. Are you happy? Do you have any indication she has not been a good wife? Seriously, she was ashamed of her past, big deal. She lied...oh the horror! Have you never told a lie? Your marriage was not built on lies, unless you got married solely because she was a Virgin. And if that was the case...you are crazy. As far as her comparing you...really? Have confidence in yourself man!


Ok then, I guess he should just get over it and be happy by not getting what he wanted. She lied? Get over it and trust everything she ever says from this point on


----------



## Graywolf2

kevin1986 said:


> well what a suprise when she told me she was also saving her self for marriage, but i was looking for more than just her being a virgin i needed to know her heart, after dating for 2 years i new i wanted to marry her because was different from the other women i dated, kind, loving,caring, understanding *and to top it off she was a virgin*.


Being a virgin was one of many traits that went into the decision making process to marry her. Maybe it was the deciding factor that pushed her over the top. 

She should have told him the truth (if not before they were married then certainly before they had a kid) and allowed him to make such a life altering decision on the facts. She cheated him of that informed choice to benefit herself.

*It may not be a big deal to most but it was to him. That's why she didn't tell him.*


----------



## Observer

vellocet said:


> Ok then, I guess he should just get over it and be happy by not getting what he wanted. She lied? Get over it and trust everything she ever says from this point on


It was over 4 years ago, judge her by her actions as a wife and how she is now...that is what I am saying. She lied about her sexual history...that does not seem awful to me, especially IF she has beena great wife.


----------



## ConanHub

Observer said:


> This is insane. Are you happy? Do you have any indication she has not been a good wife? Seriously, she was ashamed of her past, big deal. She lied...oh the horror! Have you never told a lie? Your marriage was not built on lies, unless you got married solely because she was a Virgin. And if that was the case...you are crazy. As far as her comparing you...really? Have confidence in yourself man!


Please tell us of your great marriage where your spouse lies about whatever they feel will benefit them by manipulating you to get you to do what they want based on false information.

It would be a fascinating study as I have never "Observed" such an anomaly.

Please share so that I don't think that you are full of it because right now, I do.


----------



## Observer

Graywolf2 said:


> Being a virgin was one of many traits that went into the decision making process to marry her. Maybe it was the deciding factor that pushed her over the top.
> 
> She should have told him the truth (if not before they were married then certainly before they had a kid) and allowed him to make such a life altering decision on the facts. She cheated him of that informed choice to benefit herself.
> 
> It may not be a big deal to most but it was to him. That's why she didn't tell him.


OK she should of told him the truth BUT, they are married now AND have a child. Really, if everything else is good, why on Earth should this impact their marriage now?


----------



## italianjob

that.girl said:


> I agree. I just think her choice of words, and the possibility that he made an assumption about her history, is important. What if she just said "I want to wait until we're married" and he assumed that meant she had always waited? He doesn't make this very clear.


He does say that she is asking for forgiveness, and that would seem to indicate that she knew she was lying.

On the other hand why would she trick this particular guy to date her if her believe system was not compatible to his? How did she manage to keep him at a distance from her gossiping friends and why she suddenly stopped? IDK, I feel there is a missing piece or two, here.


----------



## Observer

ConanHub said:


> Please tell us of your great marriage where your spouse lies about whatever they feel will benefit them by manipulating you to get you to do what they want based on false information.
> 
> It would be a fascinating study as I have never "Observed" such an anomaly.
> 
> Please share so that I don't think that you are full of it because right now, I do.


She did not lie to him as a spouse, she lied when they dated about her sexual past. I assume they were young. You are looking at this from a mature person that has gained wisdom from experience. Look at it from a young person who does not understand how a white lie can have repercussions down the road.


----------



## vellocet

Observer said:


> It was over 4 years ago, judge her by her actions as a wife and how she is now...that is what I am saying. She lied about her sexual history...that does not seem awful to me, especially IF she has beena great wife.


No, she didn't just lie about her sexual history. She made him think she was a virgin. He doesn't believe in premarital sex. She cheated him out of the principles he believes in.

Omitting some details of sexual experiences is one thing. Telling him she has NEVER had premarital sex, when to the contrary she has in spades, is quite another matter.

Bottom line, he asked her, she knew what he wanted, she trapped him by saying she was a virgin. Yes, his marriage IS built on lies. Hell, its the damn foundation.



> She did not lie to him as a spouse


Yes she did. She lied to BECOME his spouse, and kept the lie WHILE she was his spouse.




> she lied when they dated about her sexual past.


No, she lied about even HAVING a sexual past.


----------



## vellocet

Observer said:


> OK she should of told him the truth BUT, they are married now AND have a child.


Yup, and now he has to go on with his life being unhappy about who he married. I guess he is just going to have to suck it up and when he is boiling inside about how he feels, he is just going to have to bottle it up.



> Really, if everything else is good, why on Earth should this impact their marriage now?


Because she got what she wanted. He did not.


----------



## vellocet

kevin1986 said:


> she is asking for my forgivness, telling me its the past,to me its the present and it hurts to know that other men know about your wife in that way, is it my ego? your damn right it is.


I personally don't get hung up on a woman's sexual past. That's just me.

But you have a set of principles. I know others like you who don't believe in premarital sex and want someone like minded. Nothing wrong with that, although I think that is hard to find.

So basically she knew there would have been a strong possibility that you'd have left her if she told the truth. So she lied, tricking you into marrying her. 


Now I'm not saying you should divorce her, because for this situation that would be pretty extreme, IMO.
But what do you do??

So my question to you is, what do you plan to do? If you stay with her, how are you going to deal with the fact that you didn't get what you wanted? IC is probably a good fit for you, as long as you don't get someone who is apologizing for her. You need someone that is going to help YOU.


----------



## Observer

Bravo to all who never made a mistake. Lets seek to tell this man his wife is awful and his marriage is a fabricated lie that he should get out of...why? Becasue she said she was a Virgin :scratchhead: Not becasue she commited adultry..oh no, becasue she loved and wanted to be with him and told him what he wanted to hear. Yes, that makes complete sense! Go ahead OP, hate your wife for her treacherous lie! Disregard any good the woman has done and what type of mother she is. End it all now and resent her. You are perfect, as are our fellow posters, that made no mistakes when they were young or in their relationship. Ive made plenty of mistakes, so I'm tainted. Good luck in your new quest to find a Virgin.


----------



## ConanHub

Observer said:


> She did not lie to him as a spouse, she lied when they dated about her sexual past. I assume they were young. You are looking at this from a mature person that has gained wisdom from experience. Look at it from a young person who does not understand how a white lie can have repercussions down the road.


An evil act done four years ago and never rectified is still evil.

I have seen this stupidity play out more ways than I have years left of life.

When people lie to manipulate others, it is always evil and 4 years ago, she knew it.

Marriage is the biggest, most life altering decision most people make.

A lie was a big part of this marriage's foundation and now it is crumbling.


----------



## vellocet

Observer said:


> Bravo to all who never made a mistake. Lets seek to tell this man his wife is awful and his marriage is a fabricated lie that he should get out of...why?


Nice try. Nobody is doing that. And most of us never lied to someone to trick them into marriage.

I have told him that divorce would be extreme to this situation and that IC could help him as long as the counselor isn't apologizing for her.




> Becasue she said she was a Virgin :scratchhead:


Yes, because she knew what he wanted in a wife. So she decided to rob him of that. Its not like being cheated on, but he was cheated out of what he wanted just the same.



> Go ahead OP, hate your wife for her treacherous lie!


Again, nice try. Nobody is suggesting anything of the sort.

He needs to get some help to overcome this. But in the end, there is still one fact that remains. He wanted someone like himself. He didn't get it.



> Ive made plenty of mistakes, so I'm tainted


So did you ever lie to someone to trick them into marriage? Mistakes are mistakes. This was manipulation and control.


----------



## crossbar

kevin1986 said:


> Am more worried about her compairing me to her exes, i keep thinking what else is she not telling me. But is it fair to me to be swindled like this?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Did she lie to you about her past? Yes. And that's bad. Is she comparing you to her Ex's? NO WAY!!!

What girl goes through all this trouble to hide her past if she didn't think the man she's with was worth it? She was scared. She was scared that if you learned the truth, you would leave and it would have crushed her. Does that sound like a girl that was comparing you to another man? In a way, I guess it does. Because, it says that she would go to that extreme to save what she has with the man she fell in love with. She found what she was looking for in YOU! Not with anyone else. 

Sex is an important part of a relationship. But, for most women, it's not the most important part. What is probably the most important part is finding a partner to walk through life with together. To fall in love with your best friend and to treat each other with kindness, love and respect. For most women, that stuff is FAR MORE IMPORTANT than a roll in the hay. So, no. She's not comparing you to others. She found her man, her best friend, her lover and the father to her children in you! She can't picture anyone else in that role but you!

You feel swindled. Okay. But, let me ask you this? If she would have told you in the beginning, would you have ended it with her? I'm guessing that if she went to these extremes to hide this from you, then she knows you well enough to know the answer would have been "Yes, you would have". So, she got scared. Why? because she loves you above anyone else (aside from her children).

So, yes. She was wrong. But, that was in her past and long before she met you. And I seriously doubt that your marriage was built on a foundation of lies. So, yeah. Her reasoning was selfish. But, in her mind, the truth that was now beyond her control would have resulted in losing the man she fell in love with. 

I strongly recommend that you two go to marriage counseling. In my opinion, I don't think that what she did is unforgiveable. You weren't even a thought when this happened. But, when you came into the picture, you rocked her world enough for her to hide her past. You're not being compared. You're the real deal in her eyes and she would go to the very gates of hell to save what she has with you. That's says a lot.


----------



## ConanHub

Observer said:


> Bravo to all who never made a mistake. Lets seek to tell this man his wife is awful and his marriage is a fabricated lie that he should get out of...why? Becasue she said she was a Virgin :scratchhead: Not becasue she commited adultry..oh no, becasue she loved and wanted to be with him and told him what he wanted to hear. Yes, that makes complete sense! Go ahead OP, hate your wife for her treacherous lie! Disregard any good the woman has done and what type of mother she is. End it all now and resent her. You are perfect, as are our fellow posters, that made no mistakes when they were young or in their relationship. Ive made plenty of mistakes, so I'm tainted. Good luck in your new quest to find a Virgin.


Liars do not love those that they lie to. They love themselves.

This woman liked OP as a potential husband to fill her needs.

She loved herself enough to lie and manipulate him to get what she wanted.

If she had really loved him, she would have offered him the truth no matter how it might have affected her.

My wife had a horrible past and track record but offered me the truth about herself and let me choose.

23 years later, we are very happy. My wife truly loves me.


----------



## Observer

vellocet said:


> Nice try. Nobody is doing that. And most of us never lied to someone to trick them into marriage.
> 
> *I am reading responses, I am not "trying" to do anything.*
> 
> I have told him that divorce would be extreme to this situation and that IC could help him as long as the counselor isn't apologizing for her.
> 
> *If this is where we are at as a society, where people divorce over that...ugh.B]
> 
> Yes, because she knew what he wanted in a wife. So she decided to rob him of that. Its not like being cheated on, but he was cheated out of what he wanted just the same.
> 
> So you think a young woman/man really thought of it that way?
> 
> He needs to get some help to overcome this. But in the end, there is still one fact that remains. He wanted someone like himself. He didn't get it.
> 
> Getting help to get over it is great advice. Perhaps she is like him...just was not a Virgin? That is what he should concentrate on imho.
> 
> So did you ever lie to someone to trick them into marriage? Mistakes are mistakes. This was manipulation and control.*


*

I find it hard to believe the young woman is a mastermind manipulator based off what he wrote. I doubt her intent was anything other than wanting to be with him becasue she loved him and she wanted to make him happy.*


----------



## vellocet

crossbar said:


> What girl goes through all this trouble to hide her past if she didn't think the man she's with was worth it? She was scared. *She was scared that if you learned the truth, you would leave *


Boom! And right there is the problem. She tricked him. She knew what he wanted, so she lied to get what she wanted while denying him what he wanted.

Anytime someone thinks that telling the truth will cause the other to leave them, that's all the MORE reason TO tell the truth.

So if someone I was with told me, "I lied because I didn't want you to leave me", my response would be, "So now I'm stuck and you robbed me of that choice....wonderful. I'm going to call my BF and go get sh#tfaced"


----------



## vellocet

Observer said:


> So you think a young woman/man really thought of it that way?


Uh, duh! She knew he'd leave if she told him the truth. So she lied to manipulate the situation.



vellocet said:


> He needs to get some help to overcome this. But in the end, there is still one fact that remains. He wanted someone like himself. He didn't get it.





vellocet said:


> So did you ever lie to someone to trick them into marriage? Mistakes are mistakes. This was manipulation and control.





Observer said:


> I find it hard to believe the young woman is a mastermind manipulator based off what he wrote. I doubt her intent was anything other than wanting to be with him becasue she loved him and she wanted to make him happy.


That's not what I asked you. You made this sound like a simple "mistake" and that you have mistakes. I asked you if you ever tricked anyone into marriage since trying to equate it to a simple "mistake" doesn't exactly fly.

But to answer your assertion, it doesn't matter if she believed she was manipulating or controlling the situation or Kev. That is exactly what she did regardless of her thought process.


----------



## crossbar

vellocet said:


> Boom! And right there is the problem. She tricked him. She knew what he wanted, so she lied to get what she wanted while denying him what he wanted.
> 
> Anytime someone thinks that telling the truth will cause the other to leave them, that's all the MORE reason TO tell the truth.
> 
> So if someone I was with told me, "I lied because I didn't want you to leave me", my response would be, "So now I'm stuck and you robbed me of that choice....wonderful. I'm going to call my BF and go get sh#tfaced"


 I never said it was right. But, are YOU saying it's unforgiveable?


----------



## Observer

ConanHub said:


> Liars do not love those that they lie to. They love themselves.
> 
> This woman liked OP as a potential husband to fill her needs.
> 
> She loved herself enough to lie and manipulate him to get what she wanted.
> 
> If she had really loved him, she would have offered him the truth no matter how it might have affected her.
> 
> My wife had a horrible past and track record but offered me the truth about herself and let me choose.
> 
> 23 years later, we are very happy. My wife truly loves me.


Good grief Conan, yes we know you have the perfect relationship, I am really truely happy for you. Not everyone does though and sometimes people make mistakes, especially when they are young. I agree with you on many things, you have a practical approach to issues, but on this, I disagree. I encourage the OP to forgive her and appreciate what he has now. Now if there are other problems with lieing or things, that may change my stance.


----------



## ConanHub

Observer said:


> Good grief Conan, yes we know you have the perfect relationship, I am really truely happy for you. Not everyone does though and sometimes people make mistakes, especially when they are young. I agree with you on many things, you have a practical approach to issues, but on this, I disagree. I encourage the OP to forgive her and appreciate what he has now. Now if there are other problems with lieing or things, that may change my stance.


Foolish to say my relationship is perfect. It is HONEST.

You are downplaying lies. Almost anything can be worked through but lies.

What he has now is a liar and manipulator that was found out.

She had years to confess, she actually had ample time before marriage to confess.

I am not encouraging him in any direction except to get some thinking time and examine himself, possibly with counsel, to determine what is the best and healthiest choice for him.

The ball is in his court and he gets to determine the outcome.

Downplaying the destructiveness of lying does not help.


----------



## vellocet

crossbar said:


> I never said it was right. But, are YOU saying it's unforgiveable?


No. That would simply be my first response when finding out I was robbed of the choice on how my life turns out.

He can forgive her and that will be up to him. But the fact will still remain, he was robbed.

He can forgive, and I believe he can move on. But I also believe that if he moves on, it will still bother him a little from time to time. Which is why I suggested he get in IC.


----------



## crossbar

vellocet said:


> No. That would simply be my first response when finding out I was robbed of the choice on how my life turns out.
> 
> He can forgive her and that will be up to him. But the fact will still remain, he was robbed.
> 
> He can forgive, and I believe he can move on. But I also believe that if he moves on, it will still bother him a little from time to time. Which is why I suggested he get in IC.


 And I agree with you to a point. Yes, he was lied to about her past. 

But, he never said that she was a terrible girlfriend. Never said that she wasn't a devoted wife or mother. Never said that she treated him badly. Never said that she disrespects him from day to day. Never said that she doesn't show him that she loves him. Never said that she doesn't love their children. Never said that they constantly fought like cats and dogs.

So, aside from her lie in the beginning. I think he found a devoted partner, wife and mother in this girl and things were great!

So, I don't think he was robbed. Lied to? Yeah. But, not robbed in the true sense of the word. If he truly felt robbed, then he would have regrets of marrying this girl and would regret having children with her. And he hasn't conveyed that at all. Just some messed up feeling about being compared to others.


----------



## italianjob

crossbar said:


> And I agree with you to a point. Yes, he was lied to about her past.
> 
> But, he never said that she was a terrible girlfriend. Never said that she wasn't a devoted wife or mother. Never said that she treated him badly. Never said that she disrespects him from day to day. Never said that she doesn't show him that she loves him. Never said that she doesn't love their children. Never said that they constantly fought like cats and dogs.
> 
> So, aside from her lie in the beginning. I think he found a devoted partner, wife and mother in this girl and things were great!
> 
> So, I don't think he was robbed. Lied to? Yeah. But, not robbed in the true sense of the word. If he truly felt robbed, then he would have regrets of marrying this girl and would regret having children with her. And he hasn't conveyed that at all. Just some messed up feeling about being compared to others.


I agree with Vellocet,
he WAS robbed. This is not an unimportant White lie, she had him believe she was something she wasn't. Think of all the memories of important events that will be forever tainted for him. The first wedding night was the first time for both, except it wasn't, she was acting, at least to an extent.

Is it unforgivable? None of us can tell, only Kevin can decide that. I think counseling might be useful, but they need to talk about their history and find some common ground before that IMO.

The thing I still don't understand is that by the way he tells the tale it sounds like this lie was uttered before they started dating, so being in love doesn't look like the motivation behind the lie. Why would she want to manipulate him into dating her is Beyond me.


----------



## bfree

Observer said:


> This is insane. Are you happy? Do you have any indication she has not been a good wife? Seriously, she was ashamed of her past, big deal. She lied...oh the horror! Have you never told a lie? Your marriage was not built on lies, unless you got married solely because she was a Virgin. And if that was the case...you are crazy. As far as her comparing you...really? Have confidence in yourself man!


While I agree that if he has been happily married he should try to get past this your post is a tad flippant. Let me ask you this. What if the OP was a former convict and he lied to his wife about his past? What if he were convicted of rape? Would his wife have a right to know that? What would you advise a woman who found out her husband lied to her and was a convicted rapist?


----------



## crossbar

italianjob said:


> started dating, so being in love doesn't look like the motivation behind the lie. Why would she want to manipulate him into dating her is Beyond me.


 Well, I don't know about you, but a person sexual history isn't one of the point I bring up on a first date. OR even second or third....For me, it usually doesn't come up until we both think about bringing it to that level and by the time that happens, we've developed strong enough feeling for each other. 

But, that's just me.


----------



## Observer

bfree said:


> While I agree that if he has been happily married he should try to get past this your post is a tad flippant. Let me ask you this. What if the OP was a former convict and he lied to his wife about his past? What if he were convicted of rape? Would his wife have a right to know that? What would you advise a woman who found out her husband lied to her and was a convicted rapist?


Are we really comparing a crime, one that is sick and evil, versus her lieing about having sex? 

I would be mad for sure, but I would also hope I could judge between the past and present. I might also be flattered that she wanted me so much, she could not bear the thought of me knowing she had been with someone else. Perspective....


----------



## Dogbert

What Kevin failed to realize is how attractive a man shunning pre-marital sex can be to a woman who had grown so used to been chased by other men wanting nothing but to have sex with her. And how rare it is to find people, like himself, who purposely choose to wait until they get married to have sex. But he should also realize that even if she had been a virgin prior to marriage, it would not guarantee that at a later time, she would regret her decision and start actively seeking out men.

Kevin, in this life we are given options that are far from attractive and we must choose the least sh!tiest of the bunch. I hope you choose wisely.


----------



## italianjob

crossbar said:


> Well, I don't know about you, but a person sexual history isn't one of the point I bring up on a first date. OR even second or third....For me, it usually doesn't come up until we both think about bringing it to that level and by the time that happens, we've developed strong enough feeling for each other.
> 
> But, that's just me.


OP has a peculiar belief system, and it sounds like she knew about this before they started dating. At least, that's what I understand reading the very first post. Did you read it?


----------



## crossbar

italianjob said:


> OP has a peculiar belief system, and it sounds like she knew about this before they started dating. At least, that's what I understand reading the very first post. Did you read it?



Of course I read it and it would have been confusing to me as well as to you.

"*Before my wife and i married* we talked about passed relationships and i told her i dated 3 women and never slept with any of them because i do not believe in premarital sex,when i met my *wife we where just friends and she new about my beliefs*, she didnt belive at first seing that it was easy for me to pick up women and am not the shy type"

So, which one of the bold did you take it as?

Personally, I don't see someone going on a first date saying "Hi! I'm Kevin and I'm a virgin by choice! Ready to go to dinner?"


----------



## Locke.Stratos

Observer said:


> This is insane. Are you happy? Do you have any indication she has not been a good wife? Seriously, she was ashamed of her past, big deal. She lied...oh the horror! Have you never told a lie? Your marriage was not built on lies, unless you got married solely because she was a Virgin. And if that was the case...you are crazy. As far as her comparing you...really? Have confidence in yourself man!





Observer said:


> I find it hard to believe the young woman is a mastermind manipulator based off what he wrote. I doubt her intent was anything other than wanting to be with him becasue she loved him and she wanted to make him happy.





Observer said:


> It was over 4 years ago, judge her by her actions as a wife and how she is now...that is what I am saying. She lied about her sexual history...that does not seem awful to me, especially IF she has beena great wife.





Observer said:


> OK she should of told him the truth BUT, they are married now AND have a child. Really, if everything else is good, why on Earth should this impact their marriage now?





Observer said:


> Bravo to all who never made a mistake. Lets seek to tell this man his wife is awful and his marriage is a fabricated lie that he should get out of...why? Becasue she said she was a Virgin Not becasue she commited adultry..oh no, becasue she loved and wanted to be with him and told him what he wanted to hear. Yes, that makes complete sense! Go ahead OP, hate your wife for her treacherous lie! Disregard any good the woman has done and what type of mother she is. End it all now and resent her. You are perfect, as are our fellow posters, that made no mistakes when they were young or in their relationship. Ive made plenty of mistakes, so I'm tainted. Good luck in your new quest to find a Virgin.





Observer said:


> Good grief Conan, yes we know you have the perfect relationship, I am really truely happy for you. Not everyone does though and sometimes people make mistakes, especially when they are young. I agree with you on many things, you have a practical approach to issues, but on this, I disagree. I encourage the OP to forgive her and appreciate what he has now. Now if there are other problems with lieing or things, that may change my stance.





Observer said:


> Are we really comparing a crime, one that is sick and evil, versus her lieing about having sex?
> 
> I would be mad for sure, but I would also hope I could judge between the past and present. I might also be flattered that she wanted me so much, she could not bear the thought of me knowing she had been with someone else. Perspective....


I'm having a hard time believing that someone would think and feel this way. Help me understand where you're coming from with all of these. Have you said, done or behaved in a manner similar to kevin1986's wife, have you lied and hidden important information from your spouse or someone else in your life? Has someone done this to you and convinced you that it was okay and therefore you have to believe what you're writing because if you don't you would have to face the reality that this thing that was done to you was wrong and that would be too much for you to come to terms with?

She intentionally deceived him and manipulated him in this regard for the duration of their relationship. Any time that the subject matter arose and she kept up the pretense she continued the deception. I don't get how you're able to so nonchalantly glaze over this and think it inconsequential. 

It is not okay that she lied and manipulated him. Yes people lie. That's not a defense and it doesn't excuse hers.

This is so warped to me:


Observer said:


> I might also be flattered that she wanted me so much, she could not bear the thought of me knowing she had been with someone else. Perspective....


----------



## Dyokemm

The fact that she may have lied to him because she was in love and didn't want to lose him is essentially meaningless.

That WAS NOT her call to make...it was pure deception to get what she wanted.

And it is not even a PAST issue....she was continuing the lie right up to the recent point in time when she was found out.

OP's W has a major issue that they need to deal with in order to repair the M.

She simply has NO PROBLEM lying to her H in order to meet her own needs or wants.

Now who in here wants to volunteer to live in a relationship with a partner they know can do this?

And for those who say the OP (or others who hold these values) was ridiculous for caring or asking about her virginity and saving herself for M, who are you to dictate what should matter to another person?

I personally don't care about this issue, but OP did. That reflects his beliefs and he has every right to hold to them.

Like I said, I don't care about a partner's past experiences or the number of partners she had....but I also have ONE major concern about a potential partner's past that I would be be p*ssed off to know she lied about.

I f*cking hate cheaters and want zero to do with a relationship with a woman who can engage in infidelity.

If I had a partner who I found out lied about this, da*n right I would consider it a major issue.

And I wouldn't be persuaded that it was justified because she loved me and didn't want to lose me.


----------



## altawa

Locke.Stratos said:


> I'm having a hard time believing that someone would think and feel this way. Help me understand where you're coming from with all of these. Have you said, done or behaved in a manner similar to kevin1986's wife, have you lied and hidden important information from your spouse or someone else in your life?
> 
> She intentionally deceived him and manipulated him in this regard for the duration of their relationship. Any time that the subject matter arrose and she kept up the pretense she continued the deception. I don't get how you're able to so nonchalantly glaze over this and think of it as inconsequential. It is not okay that she lied and manipulated him.
> 
> Yes people lie. That's not a defense and it doesn't excuse hers.
> 
> This is so warped to me:


I don't get it either. It is like **** shaming in reverse.


----------



## italianjob

crossbar said:


> Of course I read it and it would have been confusing to me as well as to you.
> 
> "*Before my wife and i married* we talked about passed relationships and i told her i dated 3 women and never slept with any of them because i do not believe in premarital sex,when i met my *wife we where just friends and she new about my beliefs*, she didnt belive at first seing that it was easy for me to pick up women and am not the shy type"
> 
> So, which one of the bold did you take it as?
> 
> Personally, I don't see someone going on a first date saying "Hi! I'm Kevin and I'm a virgin by choice! Ready to go to dinner?"


Well I took the second one since it continues with:

"but i was looking for more than just her being a virgin i needed to know her heart, after dating for 2 years i new i wanted to marry her",

the wording of it all makes me think this is something that was discussed as friends, before starting dating.

Also, if you have such old fashioned ideas about what you want from your special one, you know it's something that's considered strange and unusual, so it's not so strange to bring it up quite early.
I never brought this topic up early but I think I would, if I had kevin's beliefs.


----------



## vellocet

crossbar said:


> So, I don't think he was robbed. Lied to? Yeah. But, not robbed in the true sense of the word.


Obviously he feels otherwise: "*she duped me into marrying her*" Sounds like robbed to me.

Also, she admitted herself that she was afraid that he would not want to marry her if she told the truth. Hence she ROBBED him of the choice at that time.

But I'll digress, because he is now married and has kids.

So he needs help in how to deal with this


----------



## Thor

italianjob said:


> I Don't get it, _she_ lies to him and _h_e needs to go to IC?
> 
> The problem here is not that Kevin has projected his belief system onto his wife. The problem is that his wife TOLD him she had a similar belief system and it wasn't true.
> 
> If this marriage has to be saved they should talk to each other. Kevin should know what is his wife's view of the world and sex, he should know what where her motivations to carry on such a lie for so long, and they should find out if there is common ground to work on.
> 
> After they do this, MC might help, IC for each of them might be useful depending on the outcome of their face to face confrontation IMO.


I am in a very similar situation to the OP. IC has helped me quite a bit to get my own thoughts straightened out.

One very important concept is having the right to one's own feelings, values, and beliefs. Kevin seems to be struggling quite a bit with feeling guilty about his anger and hurt.

An important function of IC is to get one's perspective validated. Equally important is getting told when one is making assumptions or coming to narrow conclusions while not knowing all the facts or what the other person is really thinking. Kevin is jumping to the conclusion his wife is comparing him to the other guys when there is zero evidence she is doing so.

Finally, being lied to about this is, at least from my perspective, at least as traumatic as discovering an affair. I am in a similar situation as Kevin to some extent, and I think he needs to process the situation much as an individual and then a couple needs to process an affair. This is, after all, an infidelity to the wedding vows. Vows are much more than just "I won't screw other people", and she has shattered several of them with the lies.


----------



## bfree

Observer said:


> Are we really comparing a crime, one that is sick and evil, versus her lieing about having sex?
> 
> I would be mad for sure, but I would also hope I could judge between the past and present. I might also be flattered that she wanted me so much, she could not bear the thought of me knowing she had been with someone else. Perspective....


No we are not comparing rape to having sex. We are comparing deceit to deceit. A lie is a lie is a lie. What you are failing to acknowledge is that you are not in this situation. Your moral beliefs are not the OP's moral beliefs. And she didn't just lie about having sex. She lied about being a virgin when she actually had a threesome. Having a threesome is a little more "serious" than just having sexual intercourse isn't it? Cases of rape differ. Someone might have a rape conviction if they had sex with someone who was too drunk to consent, or maybe an 18 year old had sex with someone not yet of legal age, or someone could have been falsely convicted of rape. See that's my point. If you are asked specifically abut something and you choose to lie about it you open yourself up to every type of scrutiny there is. Again, if I were in the OP's shoes I would not divorce over this. But I am not him. If his religious and moral beliefs will not allow him to get past this who are you or me or anyone else to say he should. She should not have lied and by doing so she put herself in a position to lose her husband and her marriage. The OP has done nothing wrong. To treat him like a criminal is just criminal.


----------



## Dogbert

*The Law of 3*

It may be a joke but sometimes it is true. When a man says he's only had 9 female sex partners, the actual number is 9 divided by 3 which equals 3. And when a woman says she's only had 3 male sex partners, the actual number is 3 multiplied by 3 which equals 9. Men tend to "over report" while women tend to "under report".


----------



## Thor

that.girl said:


> I agree. I just think her choice of words, and the possibility that he made an assumption about her history, is important. What if she just said "I want to wait until we're married" and he assumed that meant she had always waited? He doesn't make this very clear.


Since we're getting into what-if territory... he made an assumption about who she was based on what she said and did. He also most likely presumed she was being as fully honest with him as he was being with her. 

My experience, which may or may not be similar to his, was that my wife chose to _literally_ keep her mouth shut when I struck up a conversation when we were engaged about fully exposing my past. Expose can be negative, but I saw it as a requirement to let her know everything about me, and also as an ingredient to deeper emotional bonding. _Intentionally_ chosing to mislead me via lies of omission (and some of commission at other times) is a serious breach.

It is a much bigger deal than simply she did some stuff with other guys. It is about who she is at her core, whether she is honest, and whether her values are what he thought they were. The entire marriage is now on quicksand.


----------



## Thor

italianjob said:


> On the other hand why would she trick this particular guy to date her if her believe system was not compatible to his? How did she manage to keep him at a distance from her gossiping friends and why she suddenly stopped? IDK, I feel there is a missing piece or two, here.


I agree there is some missing data.

It could be she felt he was a real catch for her. Maybe she had poor self esteem. Maybe she had only been around jerks and bad boys before, and OP was suddenly her escape plan into a nice and decent future she never thought she could have. Or, maybe she, like many young women today, believe she can have her wild times and then pretend they never happened when she wants to settle down. (Yes this is a double standard in several different ways which is not germane to the current thread).

In any case, it appears she knew OP might reject her if he knew the truth, so she chose to lie to him.


----------



## Dyokemm

To me, the biggest issue is what will she do the next time she wants something and feels she has to be dishonest with Kevin about it?

Unless this issue is thoroughly resolved with frank and honest communication between them, and possibly counseling for her to find out why she thought this was OK, then there is no reason, based on her past behavior, to not suspect she would lie to Kevin again.

It could be about finances, or the kids....h*ll it could even be that she feels unfulfilled in the M in some way and has found a new POSOM in her life....but if she doesn't gain the self-awareness and maturity to realize lying to get what she wants, as she has in the past, is completely unacceptable and a dealbreaker for her M, then her go to option on how to handle her H is probably going to be deception.

Kevin....THIS is the issue you need to hammer home and resolve with her.


----------



## crossbar

italianjob said:


> Well I took the second one since it continues with:
> 
> "but i was looking for more than just her being a virgin i needed to know her heart, after dating for 2 years i new i wanted to marry her",
> 
> the wording of it all makes me think this is something that was discussed as friends, before starting dating.
> 
> Also, if you have such old fashioned ideas about what you want from your special one, you know it's something that's considered strange and unusual, so it's not so strange to bring it up quite early.
> I never brought this topic up early but I think I would, if I had kevin's beliefs.


 You could take that is either way. I took it as we discussed past relationships BEFORE we were MARRIED. To me, that sounded like that they had that intense discussion while firmly rooted in the relationship. And your quote just re-enforced my stance. He was looking for something more than her being a virgin. Okay, he found it in her. Just so happens she wasn't a virgin. Shouldn't matter that much if he was looking for something more than her virginity.

I mean, geez! God forbid people have sex! Yes, she lied about it and I'm not defending her on that. What I am defending is that she has been an ideal wife to him from the point they started dating till now. I mean, you can read thread after thread about guys cheating on girls while married. Girls cheating on guys while married on here! She's guilty of lying about her past. Other than that, she has been a devoted wife and mother. 

And so what if I'm old fashion in the way that I think and feel! If I was actually THAT old fashion, Then I would jumping on that "Burn her at the stake" stance on this whole thing about her having sex before marriage and lying about it. I just think sex is trivial in the BIG picture. He said she knew his beliefs. Okay, what exactly does that mean? I mean, if he was Catholic; well, Catholics aren't supposed to have premarital sex. But, you'll be pretty hard pressed to find a lot of Catholics that follow that one! Mormons follow this rule pretty closely, but you do have some Mormons that have premarital sex. But, you'll find a lot more do everything EXCEPT intercourse so they can convince themselves that they didn't actually have "sex". So what exactly does that mean? She knew about my beliefs? Because, she didn't believe them.

Now, you'll probably come back at me and say, "Well, it wasn't trivial to Kevin!" That's because you won't allow him to see the big picture. To look at things outside the box. 

Nevermind that she probably took care of him when he was sick. Nevermind that she might have stayed up all night with their son all night so he could sleep because he had to work the next morning. Nevermind all the heart felt Christmas, birthday, Anniversary presents she bought him to let him know she loves him. Never mind supporting him with everything he does in life and with his job and nevermind maybe having a home cooked dinner for him when he walks in the door every night after a hard days work. 

She had sex before she was married and lied about it! Well, you need to divorce her and break up your family because you need to stand up for your beliefs, morals and principals! Kick her ass to the curb!!!! 

I think there are worse things in the world. This can be forgivable.


----------



## Thor

Dyokemm said:


> To me, the biggest issue is what will she do the next time she wants something and feels she has to be dishonest with Kevin about it?
> 
> Unless this issue is thoroughly resolved with frank and honest communication between them, and possibly counseling for her to find out why she thought this was OK, then there is no reason, based on her past behavior, to not suspect she would lie to Kevin again.
> 
> It could be about finances, or the kids....h*ll it could even be that she feels unfulfilled in the M in some way and has found a new POSOM in her life....but if she doesn't gain the self-awareness and maturity to realize lying to get what she wants, as she has in the past, is completely unacceptable and a dealbreaker for her M, then her go to option on how to handle her H is probably going to be deception.
> 
> Kevin....THIS is the issue you need to hammer home and resolve with her.


:iagree: 1 million times.

And there will be other lies. Maybe very small ones, maybe big ones. Maybe more will come out about her past, as a trickle truth. Every single lie will be a new trigger and akin to a new D-Day, resetting his recovery back to zero.

This has to be processed as an infidelity. The wedding vows include love, honor, and cherish. Forsaking all others also means to some extent forsaking herself for the greater good of the marriage. There is no doubt she broke her vows.


----------



## crossbar

Dyokemm said:


> It could be about finances, or the kids....h*ll it could even be that she feels unfulfilled in the M in some way and has found a new POSOM in her life


 A new POSOM? When was there ever an old POSOM? She never cheated on him. She lied about her past. Now, you're just speculating. But, up until now, apparently he had a great marriage.


----------



## crossbar

Thor said:


> This has to be processed as an infidelity. The wedding vows include love, honor, and cherish. Forsaking all others also means to some extent forsaking herself for the greater good of the marriage. *There is no doubt she broke her vows*.


WHAT?!?! Really?!?! I assume that you might be married or dating. There's probably a very high chance that your wife or future wife had sex with someone else. Therefore, if we use your logic, she didn't forsake all other for you; hence, there's NO WAY she could keep her vows to you. Don't bother getting married or you should divorce your wife.


----------



## altawa

crossbar said:


> You could take that is either way. I took it as we discussed past relationships BEFORE we were MARRIED. To me, that sounded like that they had that intense discussion while firmly rooted in the relationship. And your quote just re-enforced my stance. He was looking for something more than her being a virgin. Okay, he found it in her. Just so happens she wasn't a virgin. Shouldn't matter that much if he was looking for something more than her virginity.
> 
> I mean, geez! God forbid people have sex! Yes, she lied about it and I'm not defending her on that. What I am defending is that she has been an ideal wife to him from the point they started dating till now. I mean, you can read thread after thread about guys cheating on girls while married. Girls cheating on guys while married on here! She's guilty of lying about her past. Other than that, she has been a devoted wife and mother.
> 
> And so what if I'm old fashion in the way that I think and feel! If I was actually THAT old fashion, Then I would jumping on that "Burn her at the stake" stance on this whole thing about her having sex before marriage and lying about it. I just think sex is trivial in the BIG picture. He said she knew his beliefs. Okay, what exactly does that mean? I mean, if he was Catholic; well, Catholics aren't supposed to have premarital sex. But, you'll be pretty hard pressed to find a lot of Catholics that follow that one! Mormons follow this rule pretty closely, but you do have some Mormons that have premarital sex. But, you'll find a lot more do everything EXCEPT intercourse so they can convince themselves that they didn't actually have "sex". So what exactly does that mean? She knew about my beliefs? Because, she didn't believe them.
> 
> Now, you'll probably come back at me and say, "Well, it wasn't trivial to Kevin!" That's because you won't allow him to see the big picture. To look at things outside the box.
> 
> Nevermind that she probably took care of him when he was sick. Nevermind that she might have stayed up all night with their son all night so he could sleep because he had to work the next morning. Nevermind all the heart felt Christmas, birthday, Anniversary presents she bought him to let him know she loves him. Never mind supporting him with everything he does in life and with his job and nevermind maybe having a home cooked dinner for him when he walks in the door every night after a hard days work.
> 
> She had sex before she was married and lied about it! Well, you need to divorce her and break up your family because you need to stand up for your beliefs, morals and principals! Kick her ass to the curb!!!!
> 
> I think there are worse things in the world. This can be forgivable.


Your whole post seems very dismissive of his beliefs. It seems very much like if he doesn't see things the way you do, he is wrong. I see no problem with his beliefs, and I have no doubt that his wife knew exactly what they were when they were together and purposely lied about it. If that was me, I couldn't deal with it. That is almost the textbook definition of dealbreaker. Completely lying about a cornerstone of his belief system, and continuing to lie about it for YEARS, out of selfishness. Truly narcissistic.


----------



## Dyokemm

"A new POSOM? When was there ever an old POSOM? She never cheated on him. She lied about her past. Now, you're just speculating. But, up until now, apparently he had a great marriage."

Crossbar,

Stop being obtuse.

I NEVER said there was a POSOM in the past.

I was obviously referring to ANY potential situation in the future where she might feel tempted to lie to her H again to get what she wants....like she did when they got together by lying to him about her past so she could have the M she wanted, EVEN IF HER H POSSIBLY WOULD NOT HAVE WANTED IT HAD HE KNOWN THE TRUTH.

And I disagree that he has had a 'great' M, though based on what OP has said it is not a 'bad' one either.

He has been M to a liar and selfish deceiver....I would never classify that as great even if other parts of the M have been good and satisfying.


----------



## Thor

crossbar said:


> I mean, geez! God forbid people have sex! Yes, she lied about it and I'm not defending her on that. What I am defending is that she has been an ideal wife to him from the point they started dating till now.


He thought she was ideal, but she wasn't. Let me explain.

For him, sex was always something absolutely exclusive with her. Nobody else on the planet saw that side of either one of them. This was their own space, their own private refuge. For Kevin it appears he has a sacred view of sexuality, and he believed she did too.

But now that has been shattered by this revelation. It doesn't change the fact she has been a good wife, but the entire context of sex has been irretrievably destroyed. Whenever he is with her sexually from now on, it will never be the same for him.

The sense of refuge within the marriage has been forever destroyed. The trust has been destroyed.

I knew my wife had been with 3 other boyfriends before me. I actually was attracted to her as being an uninhibited fun loving person. She was a breath of fresh air compared to the time and place I grew up in. I think it is a false argument to say it is about her having a sexual past that is *the* problem for Kevin. While it is *a* problem, the deception is truly as devastating as an affair. Kevin hit upon it in the first post, wondering *what else * doesn't he know about.

I look back and wonder which male friends of my wife's I've hung out with while not knowing they'd had sex with her. I've wondered what else about her has she deceived me about. I've wondered what was ever true or real.

These are all emotional responses to the deception about something which was very important. Kevin has the right to his values, and the right to be angry at what she has done. Now he has to process it. She has to be a central part of the recovery.


----------



## Thor

crossbar said:


> WHAT?!?! Really?!?! I assume that you might be married or dating. There's probably a very high chance that your wife or future wife had sex with someone else. Therefore, if we use your logic, she didn't forsake all other for you; hence, there's NO WAY she could keep her vows to you. Don't bother getting married or you should divorce your wife.


No you took that all wrong. The marriage vows don't mean you are claiming to be a virgin.

The wedding vows are not simply "I won't screw other people". The part about Love, Honor, and Cherish means something. However one wants to define it, certainly lying about something you know is extremely important to your spouse is not part of Love, Honor, and Cherish.

Forsaking all others means putting your spouse first. While it certainly means not screwing others (while married), it also means making the marriage the primary relationship (aside from God if one is religious). So a person forsakes his/her relationship with parents if there is a conflict with a marital need. One forsakes all previous romantic partners. One even forsakes oneself for the betterment of the marriage, thus the For Better or For Worse clause.

Which leads to the point that she was required by her vows to be fully truthful to him even if it meant her own comfort was at risk.


----------



## crossbar

Dyokemm said:


> "A new POSOM? When was there ever an old POSOM? She never cheated on him. She lied about her past. Now, you're just speculating. But, up until now, apparently he had a great marriage."
> 
> Crossbar,
> 
> Stop being obtuse.
> 
> I NEVER said there was a POSOM in the past.
> 
> I was obviously referring to ANY potential situation in the future where she might feel tempted to lie to her H again to get what she wants....like she did when they got together by lying to him about her past so she could have the M she wanted, EVEN IF HER H POSSIBLY WOULD NOT HAVE WANTED IT HAD HE KNOWN THE TRUTH.
> 
> *And I disagree that he has had a 'great' M, though based on what OP has said it is not a 'bad' one either.*
> He has been M to a liar and selfish deceiver....I would never classify that as great even if other parts of the M have been good and satisfying.


 Well, I agree there is no such thing as a perfect marriage. Ozzie and Harriet were on a TV show. And, again, I'm not defending her lying to him. But, I don't think their marriage was a lie as a lot of you are pointing out. 

She was scared to lose him and she knew that if she did know the truth, that would happen. And a lot of you are pushing him in the direction of ending his marriage. I mean, we both can read on here thread after thread that have marriages that are going to hell in a handcart. And I would be the first to tell a man or woman that has a cheating spouse to get out of it, even though I am pro-marriage. Sometimes, it's just not meant to be.

But, I can't sit by and push someone towards the doors without having that person exhaust every possibility of savaging a decent marriage. With having someone consider the options. I mean, Damn! There are worse things in the world! And I'm not trying to belittle his beliefs. Depending on what religion he is, most religions teach forgiveness. Now, the question is, can get forgive her as a wife or can he forgive her as a person, but as a wife...she crossed a line. That's for him to decide. But, I want him to consider all his options before he makes that choice. And to be honest, I have NEVER felt so much like the Devils Advocate TRYING to save a marriage. So weird.


----------



## italianjob

crossbar said:


> You could take that is either way. I took it as we discussed past relationships BEFORE we were MARRIED. To me, that sounded like that they had that intense discussion while firmly rooted in the relationship. And your quote just re-enforced my stance. He was looking for something more than her being a virgin. Okay, he found it in her. Just so happens she wasn't a virgin. Shouldn't matter that much if he was looking for something more than her virginity.
> 
> I mean, geez! God forbid people have sex! Yes, she lied about it and I'm not defending her on that. What I am defending is that she has been an ideal wife to him from the point they started dating till now. I mean, you can read thread after thread about guys cheating on girls while married. Girls cheating on guys while married on here! She's guilty of lying about her past. Other than that, she has been a devoted wife and mother.
> 
> And so what if I'm old fashion in the way that I think and feel! If I was actually THAT old fashion, Then I would jumping on that "Burn her at the stake" stance on this whole thing about her having sex before marriage and lying about it. I just think sex is trivial in the BIG picture. He said she knew his beliefs. Okay, what exactly does that mean? I mean, if he was Catholic; well, Catholics aren't supposed to have premarital sex. But, you'll be pretty hard pressed to find a lot of Catholics that follow that one! Mormons follow this rule pretty closely, but you do have some Mormons that have premarital sex. But, you'll find a lot more do everything EXCEPT intercourse so they can convince themselves that they didn't actually have "sex". So what exactly does that mean? She knew about my beliefs? Because, she didn't believe them.
> 
> Now, you'll probably come back at me and say, "Well, it wasn't trivial to Kevin!" That's because you won't allow him to see the big picture. To look at things outside the box.
> 
> Nevermind that she probably took care of him when he was sick. Nevermind that she might have stayed up all night with their son all night so he could sleep because he had to work the next morning. Nevermind all the heart felt Christmas, birthday, Anniversary presents she bought him to let him know she loves him. Never mind supporting him with everything he does in life and with his job and nevermind maybe having a home cooked dinner for him when he walks in the door every night after a hard days work.
> 
> She had sex before she was married and lied about it! Well, you need to divorce her and break up your family because you need to stand up for your beliefs, morals and principals! Kick her ass to the curb!!!!
> 
> I think there are worse things in the world. This can be forgivable.


1. Logically I think you are climbing soaped mirrors there.
2. I don't think there is one post in all this thread advising him to "kick her to the curb", and I'm quite sure we are very far from stake burning.
3. Being liberal means you respect every position, not only those from people who think like you. The OP is entitled to his belief and you are no one to tell him how he should think.


----------



## tacoma

kevin1986 said:


> hello everyone,
> 
> I wanted to get peoples views on my wife dishonesty about something very important to me, i am a religious young man brought up in a different way from almost all my friends and wifes friends.
> 
> Before my wife and i married we talked about passed relationships and i told her i dated 3 women and never slept with any of them because i do not believe in premarital sex,when i met my wife we where just friends and she new about my beliefs, she didnt belive at first seing that it was easy for me to pick up women and am not the shy type, well what a suprise when she told me she was also saving her self for marriage, but i was looking for more than just her being a virgin i needed to know her heart, after dating for 2 years i new i wanted to marry her because was different from the other women i dated,kind,loving,caring,understanding and to top it off she was a virgin.
> 
> well fast forward we have been married 5 years, with a 4 year old son, last week we went to her home town and i was chatting to her friends who had too many to drink, i found out that my wife had a threesome with the guy who she claimed was nothing but a good friend through out our courtship, she also had a one night stand with another guy who was also at the party. at home i comfronted her about everything and she admitted that she lied because she loved me and she didnt want to be judged by her past. how could she lie to me about something so important to me, why didnt she let me make up my own decision to stay or not? i just need advice on why she did this to me, am not perfect but i have never done anything with anybody sexual not because i couldnt, but because i choose not to, how do i know she doesnt compare me with her past lovers? i dont want to compete with the past. its not fair, she duped me into marrying her.


She wanted you, she lied to get you.
This isn't unusual.

All the BS about living up to or being compared to her her previous lovers is a moot point.

She's with you, chose to be with you, lied in order to keep you.
there should be no question of her desire for you so just try to get rid of that insecurity knowing she did/does want you and you have already defeated any desire she had for those before you.

The only problem left is the lie, the bait & switch.

If that itself is something you cannot understand or justify then really it'll never go away.


----------



## Dogbert

If OP is a christian he should do a WWJD?


----------



## vellocet

crossbar said:


> I mean, geez! God forbid people have sex! Yes, she lied about it and I'm not defending her on that. What I am defending is that she has been an ideal wife to him from the point they started dating till now.


I dunno. A woman that has had 3somes can't be too ideal for a man with the morality such as OPs.


----------



## Dyokemm

"She was scared to lose him and she knew that if she did know the truth, that would happen. And a lot of you are pushing him in the direction of ending his marriage."

crossbar,

I have not told Kevin he should D his W.

What I have said is he needs to deal with the issue you yourself just cited.

She has no problem lying to him to get what SHE wants, even if she knows it is not what her H would want at all.

If she doesn't come to a complete understanding that what she did in the past is totally unacceptable for a spouse to do to their partner, there will always be a possibility she will look for the same 'solution' if a similar conflict of her and Kevin's desires arises in the future.

I have suggested that Kevin sit his W down for honest and blunt communication on this issue, and even possibly counseling for her to figure out why she felt justified to do this to the man she loved and wanted to M, because there is no justification for it...it was pure selfishness....which I would bet you would agree with me has no place in a healthy relationship.

The only circumstance that I think should lead to Kevin considering ending the M would be if she refused to acknowledge that what she did was wrong AND commit that it can never happen again in their M.


----------



## vellocet

crossbar said:


> She had sex before she was married and lied about it! Well, you need to divorce her and break up your family because you need to stand up for your beliefs, morals and principals! Kick her ass to the curb!!!!


Please tell us who said this or even insinuated it.


----------



## TRy

We have now hit a point where the average person posting to this thread has posted more times than the OP. I for one will be waiting for the OP to post again prior to posting more on this thread.


----------



## Dogbert

Taste great! Less filling! Taste great! Less filling!


----------



## Observer

Locke.Stratos said:


> I'm having a hard time believing that someone would think and feel this way. Help me understand where you're coming from with all of these. Have you said, done or behaved in a manner similar to kevin1986's wife, have you lied and hidden important information from your spouse or someone else in your life? Has someone done this to you and convinced you that it was okay and therefore you have to believe what you're writing because if you don't you would have to face the reality that this thing that was done to you was wrong and that would be too much for you to come to terms with?
> 
> She intentionally deceived him and manipulated him in this regard for the duration of their relationship. Any time that the subject matter arose and she kept up the pretense she continued the deception. I don't get how you're able to so nonchalantly glaze over this and think it inconsequential.
> 
> It is not okay that she lied and manipulated him. Yes people lie. That's not a defense and it doesn't excuse hers.
> 
> This is so warped to me:


Warped? I post on this forum to offer perspective and advice. I am pro marriage. I try not to let my personal failures get in the way of the sanctity of marriage. I do not see any good in provoking the OP into doing something that may result in an end to his marriage, unless it were something I FEEL is worthy (adultry, rape, abuse). I say lets try to keep people together as much as we can and educate them so they wonderful marriages. The OP vented, got his frustratino off his chest. Instead of jumping in and poking the beast, I thought it best to offer perspective. He posted nothing to indicate his marriage is bad in any way, other than he just found this information out. 

The dafault theme around here is, "leave him/leave her". In some cases I agree completely, however in this particular case, I don't. I don't think my logic is warped at all. 

I am as honest as they come and believe it is critical in a relationship. I am also a realist. I know young people make mistakes and do not think like people that have a plethora of experiences to pull from. What she did was wrong, I said that. Live in the now though, he cannot change the past, no sense in dwelling on it.


----------



## kevin1986

I had a long talk with wife today, i wanted to know why she lied to me.......what she said was she didnt want want me to think less of her. but i cant get passed the one night stands and the 3 somes, why would a woman with self respect put her self in such situations, she kept saying her ex boyfriend wasnt ready for marriage and that i treated her differently but that doesnt solve my issues, if she didnt regret her decisions and if she enjoyed her sex romps why did she lie to me about it? now i understand why she was so uncomfertable when she got the invite to go to her home town, now am suppose to brush it off and move on, it just doesnt make sense being made a fool of. 

fact is she should have given me that choice back then, now i have no choice being a christian i dont believe in divorce and i cant let my child grow up in two different homes its not fair on her shes my baby.i feel like i was HER safe choice a provider nothing more, those guys got everything from her with out even trying, now i have to live with her actions.


----------



## kevin1986

it doesnt feel good to FEEL like,she went out there had her fun then when she wanted to settle down all her exes dissapointed her so she pretended to be my dreamgirl to get me, and to find out her partners number well above 10 makes it even worse to know that more than 10 men out there know my wife intimately i could be walking down the road and meet one of her exes and he would know he had her, that is bugging because i didnt grow up like that.


----------



## brandnew0416

You're right, she absolutely should have let you make the choice for yourself. As a wife who has lied to my husband about something serious I've learned full disclosure is best. If she lied to you about something so major without telling you, doesn't it make you wonder what else she could have lied to you about over the years? I'm sorry! I hope you two can work things out, and I hope she proves or has proven to be more trustworthy.


----------



## vellocet

kevin1986 said:


> I had a long talk with wife today, i wanted to know why she lied to me.......what she said was she didnt want want me to think less of her.


You also said that she lied because she knew you would probably dump her. So she took that choice away from you.

But I'm going to digress. Because you are with her now and have kids.

I've taken a hard stance on this, mainly because of those that seek to make you feel like an azzhole, with regards to her robbing you of that choice. BUT, I also don't think this is unfixable.
I understand your feelings of her going out and having her fun and then probably thinking she settled for you because you treat her better. But she did choose you.

I know its going to be hard getting the thoughts out of your head and honestly, I don't think they will ever completely go away. But I think you can get help in rendering those thoughts less painful or painful no more.

So question first is, what do you want to do? Do you feel like getting rid of her? Can't look at her face any longer?

Or do you want to work it out?

Another question is, do you have any reason to think that maybe, in addition to lying about her sexual past, that she has been unfaithful in any way to you? If not, you can possibly get past this.




> but i cant get passed the one night stands and the 3 somes


Myself, I could get past ONS. But I have said in the past that I wouldn't want someone that has had the experience of 3somes. 
I imagine if I ended up married with kids to someone that has had them and I found out later, things would be kind of rocky, but I think I could get past it for the most part for the sake of my family. It all would depend on how she conducted herself in the present.


----------



## Acoa

kevin1986 said:


> Am more worried about her compairing me to her exes, i keep thinking what else is she not telling me. But is it fair to me to be swindled like this?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



You sound very insecure. She lied to you and your biggest concern is if you will compare? 

Many people have wild and crazy youths and grow up to be well adjusted and happy. If you are boring in the sack that can be fixed. 

I'd worry more about the honesty. Is she apologetic about the lying? If you ask additional questions is she open to telling you anything you want to know? If you are dull in the sack, would she tell you? Or just go get another D In her on the side?

That last bit is your concern. It's not the past we worry about.


----------



## happyman64

ConanHub said:


> An evil act done four years ago and never rectified is still evil.
> 
> I have seen this stupidity play out more ways than I have years left of life.
> 
> When people lie to manipulate others, it is always evil and 4 years ago, she knew it.
> 
> Marriage is the biggest, most life altering decision most people make.
> 
> A lie was a big part of this marriage's foundation and now it is crumbling.


Conan

Normally I agree with you. But there is evil and then there is "EVIL".

Kev needs to decide what he can live with in his marriage.

People experiment with sex. Sometimes they regret what they did and some do not.

Sometimes people fall in love and sex turns into love. Lasting love.

I am so glad my wife chose me and I wasn't a virgin....

HM


----------



## TRy

kevin1986 said:


> and to find out her partners number well above 10 makes it even worse to know that more than 10 men out there know my wife intimately i could be walking down the road and meet one of her exes


 If you decide to stay in this marriage, among other things, she must specially agree to tell you about any exs that you might meet, or that others that you will be talking to might know about. If a family member, friend, or acquaintance, knows about an ex, you get to know about that ex. If she sees an ex unexpectedly, she must tell you as soon as possible that he is an ex. She can no longer play you for the fool where others knows and not you. The lying must stop now.


----------



## Observer

kevin1986 said:


> it doesnt feel good to FEEL like,she went out there had her fun then when she wanted to settle down all her exes dissapointed her so she pretended to be my dreamgirl to get me, and to find out her partners number well above 10 makes it even worse to know that more than 10 men out there know my wife intimately i could be walking down the road and meet one of her exes and he would know he had her, that is bugging because i didnt grow up like that.


Reading this makes me believe she has not been a good wife and mother? How is your relationship right now? Take away what you found out, how was it before you knew she had sex prior to you? 

If things were good, then you are blessed. Why can she not be your dream girl still? What is you married a woman who was in fact a Virgin and a huge B? If you have a good relationship, appreciate that and feel lucky. I just think you are not looking at things from the proper presepctive. You said you are Christian and that is important to you. Isn't it harder to forgive than hate? Take the hard road and choose to forgive, you will feel better and in the grand scheme of things, your family will be far better off.


----------



## Blondilocks

" *i wanted to know why she lied to me......"
*
She was *selfish* & looking out for her *own* self interest. You didn't even enter the equation. There is really nothing more to it than that. Plus, she probably figured out that all of her ex boyfriends didn't want to make a party girl their wife.

BTW, divorce is not prohibited among Christians. A misrepresentation of one's person is grounds for divorce in the Church and in some States. Even lying about the number of times one was previously married can be grounds for divorce.

You are not stuck unless you want to be. Find a counselor for yourself and then for the two of you.


----------



## Observer

Blondilocks said:


> " *i wanted to know why she lied to me......"
> *
> *She was selfish & looking out for her own self interest. You didn't even enter the equation. There is really nothing more to it than that. Plus, she probably figured out that all of her ex boyfriends didn't want to make a party girl their wife.*
> 
> BTW, divorce is not prohibited among Christians. A misrepresentation of one's person is grounds for divorce in the Church and in some States. Even lying about the number of times one was previously married can be grounds for divorce.
> 
> You are not stuck unless you want to be. Find a counselor for yourself and then for the two of you.


I don't know how you could possably know that and furthermore, why put that into his mind. Some of you are pretty cruel.


----------



## vellocet

Observer said:


> The dafault theme around here is, "leave him/leave her".


Who here is telling him to do that?


----------



## Thor

kevin1986 said:


> to find out her partners number well above 10 makes it even worse to know that more than 10 men out there know my wife intimately i could be walking down the road and meet one of her exes and he would know he had her, that is bugging because i didnt grow up like that.


This is where your position is a bit unique, being that you were a virgin and she was not. Most of the people here had multiple partners before marriage, and while their advice to "just get over it because it is the past and you can't change it" is accurate, it won't work for you.

As I said before, I knew my wife was not a virgin when we met but her past turned out to be a lot different than she told me. I understand but can't fully appreciate the loss you are feeling. I do fully understand the feeling of humiliation finding out after the fact that some guys I've hung out with had been sex partners with her. Having been a virgin when I met her probably makes this worse.

You need to have a number of conversations with your wife, because this can't all be covered in one talk. And I think you should find a good therapist so you can discuss this with someone in real life who is on your side yet knows how to help you process this. It really will help you.

Through work, if you're in the USA, you should have access to the EAP, Employee Assistance Program. It is free and completely confidential counseling. Your employer will never know you went. You can go under your or your wife's EAP.

The first conversation I would have in your situation is to simply explain to your wife that she has deeply wounded you with the lies. *For now keep the sex stuff out of the conversation*. This has been a huge breach of trust and a violation of her vows. Explain to her that it will take time to repair the damage, and that she will have to take on a major role in the process.

For you, and possibly her, read the book "After the Affair" by Janis Spring. She explains in a quickly readable format what both sides of an infidelity are going through, and what it takes to recover. Though she didn't cheat, you are in the same place emotionally.

Another conversation is needed to prepare her for what is ahead. She will have to answer all of your questions. She will have to voluntarily expose everything to you, even if you don't ask. She has to know ahead of time so she can come to terms with it. And it is a condition of the marriage continuing. Because if she cannot be honest with you, there is no marriage.

You have to think carefully about what to ask. What do you need to know? What should you avoid knowing? I would want to know how many men she has had any form of sex with, oral vaginal and anal. I would want to know names. I would want to know the basic nature of the situation, e.g. one night stand, stranger at a bar, dated for several months, etc. I think you should avoid getting specifics such as which sex act she did with which guy. She's been with men, so she's done sexual stuff. You don't need mind movies, so don't ask about who was the best lover, who was biggest, who she loved, which guy she gave oral in the car, which guy she had sex with in the forest, etc.

The reason for this conversation is to inoculate you against future surprises. This is why you need names and some general data about the types of events. If you know she had a ONS with Joe, and she dated Jim for 6 months, you won't be surprised when her friend Mary says something about Joe or when you meet Jim at a reunion and he says something about dating your wife.

So your wife has to understand the reason for the conversation is for you to heal and to protect the marriage. This isn't to punish or humiliate her. Ideally she would want to tell you everything without you asking, though in reality she will feel anxious even though she may know it has to be done. You have to make this safe for her, so don't call her names etc. This is about you getting the information you need to 1) believe you know the full truth, and 2) not have any more horrible surprises.

So your wife needs to reveal to you everything, fully, and voluntarily. This means stuff you don't even think to ask her. Anything big. Criminal arrest, major health event, bankruptcy, abuse or traumas she has experienced, prior addictions, abortions, adoptions, etc. There probably isn't anything, but to make the point this isn't just about sex. It is about her hiding big important things from you, so she now has to come clean on all of it, whatever there is.


----------



## KingwoodKev

There's always a chance that at some point during her fun girl days she had a life changing epiphany and wanted to make real change in her life. Maybe that's why she doesn't want to go back home anymore because she's not that person anymore.

Has she been the wife that you needed her to be?
Is she the girl who you thought she was? (Right now this minute, not in the past before you met).

It sounds to me like you and your life together were her second chance to be a good person and have a good life.

You should give everyone a second chance but no one a third.

As long as she is a different person now and the wife you dreamed of then I'll advise you not to sweat the past. With that said, if there's any behavior whatsoever that shows she's still a "fun girl" at heart then it's probably not going to work out for you.


----------



## Blondilocks

Observer said:


> I don't know how you could possably know that and furthermore, why put that into his mind. Some of you are pretty cruel.


Please specify which part of my post constitutes cruelty to you.

The fact that she lied because she didn't want him to think less of her shows she wasn't thinking about his self interest. The fact that her exboyfriend was not interested in marrying her and treated her differently than the op shows that he didn't value her.

I didn't have to put anything into his mind. His mind is working overtime trying to come to grips with the fact that his wife is not the person she pretended to be. The marriage he thought he had never existed.


----------



## Thor

Further conversations you will have to have with her will include her explaining why she thought it was ok to lie to you about this big important thing. Again, it is not about the sex. It could have been anything central to your belief system, and anything important to you about your future spouse. 

You're looking to see that she understands herself why she did what she did. You're also looking to see that she understands why it was so hurtful to you. She is probably like most cheaters, she is rationalizing that it was a necessary thing for her to do for the greater good. She believed she knew it would be a good marriage and a good family, so she told herself it was ok to lie to you, and what you didn't know wouldn't harm you. In fact, she may have told herself that it was for your own good, because you loved her and would be sad if you didn't marry her.

This is why I keep saying your situation is very much the same as a marital infidelity. You have been betrayed, and she is rationalizing what she did as ok.

This is why you need a therapist that is good with infidelity. You will go through the same recovery process.

If your wife is up to the work, I think you two can get through this deception issue and have a strong, close, loving relationship.

But I also believe you have to be willing to end your marriage in order to save it. This does not mean you are on the edge of pulling the plug every day. This does not mean you threaten your wife with divorce. What it means is that you recognize that there are lines in the sand which you will not tolerate being crossed. It means there are in fact nuclear boundaries which will cause you to end the marriage. You will both be motivated to do real work to repair the marriage because you know this undesirable outcome of D could happen if you don't.

If your prime directive is to keep the marriage at any cost, you have no power to effect the changes needed.


----------



## ConanHub

happyman64 said:


> Conan
> 
> Normally I agree with you. But there is evil and then there is "EVIL".
> 
> Kev needs to decide what he can live with in his marriage.
> 
> People experiment with sex. Sometimes they regret what they did and some do not.
> 
> Sometimes people fall in love and sex turns into love. Lasting love.
> 
> I am so glad my wife chose me and I wasn't a virgin....
> 
> HM


Did you lie to your wife to manipulate her into marrying you and keep manipulating her for years having children?

Don't mistake me. I have been involved in more saved marriages than any of my peers. I have found that truth empowers people and empowered people tend to do something funny, they forgive.

Here is a fun statistic. As brutal as I am, how many couples do you think have chosen to divorce after I was through with them?

Amazingly the number is 0. Regardless of infidelity or any other marriage killer. I could honestly not care less if any of the couples I counseled Dd or Rd. I just made them face the harshest truths about themselves and amazingly, they chose to change and forgive every time. All I did was empower them.

Lying to someone to manipulate them into marriage is evil.

OP and his wife need to face this hard truth to be equipped for whatever they choose. Again, I don't give a rats butt about a marriage someone trashed with lies, abuse or infidelity but I do care about the individuals becoming healthy.

Once you have exposed someone as being naked and filthy, they always clean themselves up when you point out the soap and the wardrobe.

I have seen it played out every time without fail. The marriages I speak of are stronger than any R attempt represented here on TAM.

I am not trying to persuade for D or R. That is none of my business unless it is unhealthy. If this couple attempts R, then truth will be a necessity for them both, if they choose D, the same.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ConanHub

Observer said:


> I don't know how you could possably know that and furthermore, why put that into his mind. Some of you are pretty cruel.


Some 
Of us aren't as afraid of the truth as some of you. It is not cruel to tell painful truths.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thor

kevin1986 said:


> it doesnt feel good to FEEL like,she went out there had her fun then when she wanted to settle down all her exes dissapointed her so she pretended to be my dreamgirl to get me, and to find out her partners number well above 10 makes it even worse


Guess what? This will never go away for you. No matter how things turn out, it is what it is.

You can never have the woman you thought she was, because she never was that woman. You can never have the marriage you thought you had, because it never was.

If you divorce her, any other woman you meet will have a past.

So this is yet another conversation you should have with her. Later on in the process, and really it should be in the safety of a therapist's office. You have every right to feel the way you do. Any person would feel that way! And you should be able to express it to your wife so that she knows the depth of the harm she has done.

But it should be done where she feels safe hearing it. It should not be done in a shaming sort of way. You aren't telling her she is evil for lying to you, or that she was slvtty for being with those other men. You are telling her how much she hurt you with the lies.

When you tell her this, it is simply informing her. You aren't looking for her to defend her position or to explain what happened. You just want to be heard, for her to know how you feel about it.

Conversely, she needs to be able to tell you what she is feeling and thinking about this whole thing too.

You two don't have to agree with the other, but you both should understand how the other feels and respect the other has the right to feel however they do about it.


----------



## ConanHub

Listen to the thunder god! He spouts wisdom as well as lightning this day!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## vellocet

If this were me, and I had OPs mindset, I would try to get over it "as much" as I could and move on, but in my due time.

But I would also let her know that although I would be taking steps to deal with this, that things just wouldn't be the same for me anymore and I guess I'll just have to be content with not getting what I wanted.


----------



## Observer

ConanHub said:


> Some
> Of us aren't as afraid of the truth as some of you. It is not cruel to tell painful truths.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What "truth"? She assumed a bunch of things, she has no idea what her reasoning was. Also, I acknowledge the act was wrong, it was very wrong. My whole point is why focus on something that cannot be changed, why not appreciate he has a good wife (if he does) right now? Yes, address the lie. Yes, let her know how devastating that is. And Yes, appreciate a good wife (once again...if she is) and family and forgive. That is my 2 cents.


----------



## ConanHub

Observer said:


> What "truth"? She assumed a bunch of things, she has no idea what her reasoning was. Also, I acknowledge the act was wrong, it was very wrong. My whole point is why focus on something that cannot be changed, why not appreciate he has a good wife (if he does) right now? Yes, address the lie. Yes, let her know how devastating that is. And Yes, appreciate a good wife (once again...if she is) and family and forgive. That is my 2 cents.


Blondilocks was dead on accurate. All her information was gleaned from the original poster's posts.
_Posted via Mobile Device_

I say arm him with the truth and good counsel and let OP make his decisions. I trust him. How about you? &#55357;&#56842;


----------



## Observer

ConanHub said:


> Blondilocks was dead on accurate. All her information was gleaned from the original poster's posts.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> 
> I say arm him with the truth and good counsel and let OP make his decisions. I trust him. How about you? &#55357;&#56842;


I would not agree with Blondilocks perspective at all, she makes wild assumptions in all her posts. She actually told him to get tested for STDs for Gods sake...what the...?

Whether I trust him or not is irrelevant, he will do what he wants to do. I agree with many peoples advice in this thread though and hopefully he listens to those are telling him to focus on the now.


----------



## Blondilocks

Observer said:


> What "truth"? She assumed a bunch of things, she has no idea what her reasoning was. Also, I acknowledge the act was wrong, it was very wrong. My whole point is why focus on something that cannot be changed, why not appreciate he has a good wife (if he does) right now? Yes, address the lie. Yes, let her know how devastating that is. And Yes, appreciate a good wife (once again...if she is) and family and forgive. That is my 2 cents.


"* i wanted to know why she lied to me.......what she said was she didnt want want me to think less of her.*"

This is the truth as stated by the OP. You'll notice the wife's reason was all about her. Not that she thought the OP would be happy to be the beneficiary of her sexual experiencies once he got to know her.


----------



## Blondilocks

Observer said:


> I would not agree with Blondilocks perspective at all, she makes wild assumptions in all her posts. She actually told him to get tested for STDs for Gods sake...what the...?
> 
> Whether I trust him or not is irrelevant, he will do what he wants to do. I agree with many peoples advice in this thread though and hopefully he listens to those are telling him to focus on the now.


I take exception to your claims of 'wild assumptions in all her posts'.

Yes, a test for stds would be wise considering how many partners his wife had. Some symptoms may not appear for years.


----------



## ConanHub

Observer said:


> I would not agree with Blondilocks perspective at all, she makes wild assumptions in all her posts. She actually told him to get tested for STDs for Gods sake...what the...?
> 
> Whether I trust him or not is irrelevant, he will do what he wants to do. I agree with many peoples advice in this thread though and hopefully he listens to those are telling him to focus on the now.


What you are advising is rug sweeping. The now only exists because of lies on her part.

The ends apparently justifies the means here for you. I will remember this and hold you to this POV in future posts.

Do you lie to your SO to get what you want? Does your SO lie to you?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

Blondilocks said:


> No, it isn't fair that you were conned. You thought you were buying a brand-new Mercedes and find out that it's only a used Kia.
> 
> You might want to be checked for STDs and insist your wife do also.
> 
> Have no advice as to how to calm your fears of being compared or how to regain that feeling of 'onlys' that you shared with your wife. Marriage counseling may be able to help you with that. I would hold her feet to the fire for the selfishness of her actions.


I am shocked at how disrespectful this comment is. The fact is, she is like a Mercedes that got test driven before someone else bought it. Maybe a mile or two.

By the time I married, there wasn't a chance in hell that I would have married a virgin. People can be totally compatible in every area but sex. That doesn't mean one is deficient, its just that they're different. I went with quite a few women that I didn't want to go out with again. I also went out with women who were wonderful in bed but there was no emotional spark.

For someone to be hung up on whether or not they married a virgin just shows a lack of self confidence, jealousy and immaturity.

Your wife does deserve better than you if this is all you've got.


----------



## Observer

vellocet said:


> Who here is telling him to do that?


I was speaking in general for a lot of threads. In this thread, only a few talked about divorce. Many posters I have agreed with, but there have been some really absurd presumptive comments that I personally do not think are helpful. Everyone has their point I guess.


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## vellocet

I wonder what his wife would say if for kev to get over this, he needs to have a FMF? No, not suggesting he do that and it wouldn't help kev at all.

Just wondering what her response would be if kev said he needs to have some of the same experiences she had.


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## vellocet

Observer said:


> I was speaking in general for a lot of threads. In this thread, only a few talked about divorce. Many posters I have agreed with, but there have been some really absurd presumptive comments that I personally do not think are helpful. Everyone has their point I guess.


People have talked about divorce, because lets be honest, if for some reason he just can't get over this, that may be where its headed.

But did someone tell him that he needs to divorce? Or just brought it up as a possibility?


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## Chaparral

If you couldn't tell she wasn't a virgin after you married her, her past partners were pretty pathetic in bed.

I heard a girl tell her friends she had a threesome with two guys. They asked her how it was. She said okay I guess, it was over so fast.


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## Observer

ConanHub said:


> What you are advising is rug sweeping. The now only exists because of lies on her part.
> 
> The ends apparently justifies the means here for you. I will remember this and hold you to this POV in future posts.
> 
> Do you lie to your SO to get what you want? Does your SO lie to you?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Of course I did not lie nor would I. Once again, I do not approve of her lieing to get what she wanted. I do not know her intentions of why she lied, I made assumptions like others have, my assumptinos are just different. I try to look at it from the point of view of the person. For example, she was young, loved him, ashamed of her past, and maybe wanted to be what he wanted. She made mistakes, she did not want those mistakes to ruin her relationship with him. Who knows, maybe it's like Blondilocks thinks. Whatever the reason, in the end, the fact remains he has a good wife (he has not said differently) and I think the best thing to do is yes let it go and appreciate what he has currently. Call it rug sweeping, I do not think that is what it is. It is accepting that it happened and moving on with what appears to an otherwise good marriage.


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## Observer

vellocet said:


> People have talked about divorce, because lets be honest, if for some reason he just can't get over this, that may be where its headed.QUOTE]
> 
> Lets help him get over it then


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## vellocet

I think he can get over this, just not 100%. There will always be a part of this whole thing that will eat at him, but I think he can get to a point where it simply isn't as problematic as before.

But I'm sure kev would agree, the vision of her in bed with 2 other people at the same time isn't going away. He'll have to find a way to deal with those visions if he wants to keep her.

Like I said though, he needs to let her know that he will try his best, but what she did changes things for him.


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## ConanHub

Observer. He won't get "over" it ever if the truth is not pulled out and faced. There is no moving on without it. What he has now is a liar. He just found out. So telling him to look at what he has now is not very appealing.

Hopefully, she can change and be something worth having soon. Liars truly suck at marriage and she has been lying for many years.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Affaircare

vellocet said:


> If this were me, and I had OPs mindset, I would try to get over it "as much" as I could and move on, but in my due time.
> 
> But I would also let her know that although I would be taking steps to deal with this, that things just wouldn't be the same for me anymore and I guess I'll just have to be content with not getting what I wanted.


QFT! Here's the thing--as I understand it the OP is a Christian young man. He *THOUGHT* he was marrying a young lady who had reserved all of her sexual expression for him and him alone. By technicality he may have the Biblical moral right to divorce because of course the one exception Jesus gave for divorce is sexual immorality. 

BUT he has said he doesn't want to divorce, destroy his family, or break up his child into two homes. Thus what we are dealing with here is not "helping him decide whether or not to divorce"--it's his life and he has already made that choice. NOW, we are dealing with helping him deal with not having in reality the wife and marriage he thought he had. In other words "How do I deal with reality when it does not match the image I had?" We don't went him to slip into denial or into bitterness and resentment. 

I would say Vellocet said it well, and Thor is on the money. Listen to them. And I would also mention that even though OP saved himself sexually for marriage, I have no doubt that he is a sinner just like the rest of us. OP, for you I would say that since our Lord Jesus Christ died for you and forgave you, that you extend that same grace to your wife, who has hurt you grievously, and learn to forgive her.


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## Dogbert

Not being funny nor facetious but since you have professed to being a Christian, have you prayed to your Lord and Savior? As in "Let thy will be done"?


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## ConanHub

Dogbert said:


> Not being funny nor facetious but since you have professed to being a Christian, have you prayed to your Lord and Savior? As in "Let thy will be done"?


Free will here. He can D or R it is totally up to him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Retribution

Man oh man. This is a big one, and one I've put enormous amounts of thought into.

When you lie to somebody to keep them it isn't protection or love. It's selfishness. You lied to keep them around, not as some selfless act of love. Love would be to go so far as to let someone go because you wanted their happiness.

On the subject of virginity: virginity is a big deal. Many of us have convinced ourselves that it's not, but think back to when you lost it. It was a big deal for most of you, I'm sure. I too wanted a virgin bride, for I was an intentional virgin as well. I wanted what we had to be for us, and I reveled in that thought for 10 years. It was of such value to me that it meant more to me as a sign of my wife's love than* anything else *in my marriage.

When I found out my wife was fvcking a drug dealing barber in his twin bed in the basement of his failing shop, my whole perspective of who my wife was was shattered. I imagine that is what Kevin is now experiencing, something not too far off from discovering infidelity. Sure it doesn't fit the definition of adultery, but that doesn't mean the pain is all that different.

Arguments that the past is the past, and that she's a great wife now are all moot. She was lying up until the moment he found out from somebody else. That's not being a good spouse, plain and simple. That also makes this a current issue...though I'd argue that there's no such thing as the "past is the past". I could kill somebody and the moment it was done it's in the past. Why some arbitrary amount of time passing makes my accountability for my actions less pertinent is beyond me.

Now for WWJD. I believe he would forgive, but that doesn't mean he wouldn't allow us to live the consequences of our actions. Which if you believe in a god or not, that's exactly what happens in each of our lives, we're allowed to choose, act, and live the consequences of those choices. Notice that Jesus never told the woman that she was actually forgiven for her adultery either, just that she should "go and sin no more." (this story begins in John 8) Forgiveness would require her repentance, which she hadn't done at that point. Other points include that any person's relationship with the Savior is and should be different than what it is with say a spouse, and there's strong evidence suggesting that whole story of the woman taken in adultery is really a fiction added by a scribe hundreds of years after the last apostle died.

Kevin, what you're going through and feeling is completely justified. Things about your wife's past are things that I too couldn't live with, not happily. I too wanted somebody more committed to sexual exclusivity. When I realized I no longer had that, and perhaps never did, it was a long four years before I decided to finally divorce. There's no shame or neglect in that, even with children involved (I have two). If you also realize that you're willing to love your wife in a way she possibly hasn't shown you, then I recommend you fully commit to it. You will likely always feel some negativity about this, especially if you stay with your wife. I'm not saying that to convince you to divorce her as much as to arm you with information that I feel too many sources are unwilling to give hurting spouses. The choice is yours, my friend.


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## Dogbert

ConanHub said:


> Free will here. He can D or R it is totally up to him.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Asking for help from a Higher Power to make a decision is also an exercise of free will.


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## 'CuseGal

Kev - this being a trust issue, let me ask you this. Was the trust in your marriage strong enough, before this happened, that if your wife had DENIED what those men told you about her, would you have believed her? Would you have let it go if she had told you they were lying, and accepted that maybe THEY were just being drunken d*cks, perhaps with a score to settle against a girl who had snubbed them in the past? Or was the trust level already at a point where no matter what she said, you would not have been able to accept a denial as truth?

Your story hits home really hard to me, because when I was in high school my then boyfriend kept pressuring me for sex. I was a Christian too, and didn't believe in pre-marital sex, so I finally broke up with him because he wouldn't let it go. In retribution, he told our entire school that I had not only slept with him but with his best friend as well. He RUINED my reputation and destroyed a lot of my friendships as well, because I was a good girl hanging out with good girls, and my crowd just didn't do things like that (this was 30 years ago). If I had married a guy like you, I would have been terrified for you to have met him, because I wouldn't have been sure you would have believed me if he had continued telling those lies years later. Of course, the man I did marry was experienced, enough so that he knew the first time we slept together that I truly was the virgin I claimed to be...

But if you would have had problems believing her had she denied the claims of those men, that points to your marriage already having trust issues before this happened and that's going to be a lot harder to get past than if this is the first time you've really doubted her. Because the issues already existed even before something serious came to light.


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## phillybeffandswiss

Observer said:


> I don't know how you could possably know that and furthermore, why put that into his mind. Some of you are pretty cruel.


She made a life alerting decision, for both of their lives, on her own. That's selfish whether you want to admit it or not.


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## Lordhavok

So sorry kevin, get yourself some counseling before the rj sets in and rots your soul to the core. trust me, you dont want to carry this like some of the rest of us. It will burn you up inside.


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## ConanHub

Dogbert said:


> Asking for help from a Higher Power to make a decision is also an exercise of free will.


Oh sure! Get technical! &#55357;&#56841;
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Locke.Stratos

Observer said:


> Warped? I post on this forum to offer perspective and advice. I am pro marriage. I try not to let my personal failures get in the way of the sanctity of marriage. I do not see any good in provoking the OP into doing something that may result in an end to his marriage, unless it were something I FEEL is worthy (adultry, rape, abuse). I say lets try to keep people together as much as we can and educate them so they wonderful marriages. The OP vented, got his frustratino off his chest. Instead of jumping in and poking the beast, I thought it best to offer perspective. He posted nothing to indicate his marriage is bad in any way, other than he just found this information out.
> 
> The dafault theme around here is, "leave him/leave her". In some cases I agree completely, however in this particular case, I don't. I don't think my logic is warped at all.
> 
> I am as honest as they come and believe it is critical in a relationship. I am also a realist. I know young people make mistakes and do not think like people that have a plethora of experiences to pull from. What she did was wrong, I said that. Live in the now though, he cannot change the past, no sense in dwelling on it.


*Observer*, the warped comment referred only to this post:


Observer said:


> I might also be flattered that she wanted me so much, she could not bear the thought of me knowing she had been with someone else. Perspective....


It's bizarre to me, that one should feel "flattered" after discovering that their spouse had lied and kept a huge secret from them throughout the entirety of their relationship.

Your posts, to me, appear to advice kevin1986 to simply get over it. That is not how emotions work.

You have little appreciation as to how important it is to kevin1986 the belief that he and his wife have only ever slept with each other, that when she proclaimed herself to be a virgin that she was being truthful and honest. Obviously this is a huge issue to him, otherwise he wouldn't have taken the time to create an account and post his story on this forum.

I refuse to label the decision to fabricate and propogate a lie as a simple mistake. It was a conscious, clearly thought-out, intentioned choice with a determinable outcome which in this case played out in kevin1986's wife's favour.

You're also not taking into account his feelings of hurt and betrayal as the "victim" of his wife's deception. You instead offer reasons as to why she might have lied and insist that he can't change the past and should move on, essentially rug sweeping. Well off course she had her reasons to lie, intricate or not there are reasons to everything that people do. That is little comfort to the person who was lied to, he has to reconcile the implications and reality of his wife's lie.

He has every right to be upset and outraged, so let him. Let him work through his emotions, let him be angry, sad, confused or whatever. You want him to rug sweep and I think that it is better that he confront and address these feelings, his anger, doubt and issues and work through them now so that they don't fester and build up in the future and cause his marriage to tear and implode.


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## TRy

Chaparral said:


> If you couldn't tell she wasn't a virgin after you married her, her past partners were pretty pathetic in bed.
> 
> I heard a girl tell her friends she had a threesome with two guys. They asked her how it was. She said okay I guess, it was over so fast.


 10 plus different partners and a threesome does not a virgin make. You might argue the number of partners is not uncommon for many today, but the threesome puts her as more promiscuous than most, so she was not even close to sharing his values when she told him that she was a virgin to get him to marry her. When you think of the many conversions on the topic they must have had. How many of her friends and family must have been told not to tell him. The degree of lying and deceit must be overwhelming to the OP.


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## vellocet

Here is another way I can understand kev's thinking.

It doesn't instill confidence having someone that got her bad boy, heathenistic sexual experiences under her belt, to up and all of a sudden choose the stable "virgin" guy.

At what point does one wonder that she misses her 3somes? That would be in the back of my mind.


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## ThePheonix

I now have a better understanding why I endeavored to be the bad boy rather than the stable "virgin" guy. When I was the "virgin" guy, in my teens, it was a real drag.


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## Coldie

Kevin, she chose you. All the other stuff will drive you crazy.

Apparently you were the better lover and man, she married you. Not only did she marry you, she denied that these other people even existed or experiences ever happened. She would rather them never to have happened, to please you, than sit back and compare "was he as good as this guy?"

She married you. No matter how you try to out think this, she chose to be with you for the rest of her life. You were that good, that no matter what she saw and experienced, it wasn't worth risking your love for. She chose to be with you forever, no matter how "good" the lovers were before you (which I doubt they were good).

Good luck, don't torture yourself over something you can't control.


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## TRy

Coldie said:


> Kevin, she chose you.





Coldie said:


> She married you. No matter how you try to out think this, she chose to be with you for the rest of her life.


Yes, but since she deceived him to get him to marry her, Kevin did not get to make an informed choice. You make it like her picking him makes him the winner, like she is some type of prize that he should be lucky to have won.


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## Retribution

TRy said:


> Yes, but since she deceived him to get him to marry her, Kevin did not get to make an informed choice. You make it like her picking him makes him the winner, *like she is some type of prize that he should be lucky to have won*.


:iagree:

I just watched A Million Ways to Die in the West last night and a similar subject came up, wherein the main character was plagued by thoughts of being lucky to have had his old girlfriend, how somebody so beautiful could descend and be with somebody as low as he. He was snapped out of it when he realized he was somebody of worth without her.

There is no good way to spin being lied to so the lying spouse can deceive and manipulate you into doing something you wouldn't have otherwise. "Congratulations! She lied to you about something you hold very dear. But wait! There's more! Now you get to be tied to her for the rest of your life. Maybe if you tell yourself how awesome the lie was before you knew the truth, then this won't suck so bad!" Sorry, we don't buy crazy, we're all stocked up here.


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## Meltherapist

Hi there,

Sorry to hear this. It is by definition a clear and absolute betrayal. You did not have a choice- not to marry her due to the lie, but you have a choice now, to stay or go. In my experience issues of betrayal create such deep hurts that couples need help to get through them, so seeing a therapist is advisable. Check out this book it may be helpful to you- When Your Lover Is a Liar: Healing the Wounds of Deception and Betrayal Paperback – by Donna Frazier (Author)

All the best


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## Thor

vellocet said:


> Here is another way I can understand kev's thinking.
> 
> It doesn't instill confidence having someone that got her bad boy, heathenistic sexual experiences under her belt, to up and all of a sudden choose the stable "virgin" guy.
> 
> At what point does one wonder that she misses her 3somes? That would be in the back of my mind.


At some point they need to calmly discuss what her views were of sex at that time, what she thought of those experiences at the time, and how that compares to today. There is no right/wrong answer, just honest answers (hopefully).

For me, finding out about my wife's child sex abuse explained the disconnect between her promiscuity in high school into college, and her real aversion to sex in our marriage. This really helped me move towards not being so hurt by that difference. The knowledge really explained a lot of different things.

There are still plenty of bad moments for me, because knowing why doesn't change the what. Still, it has taken the edge off.

Kevin needs to understand his wife's history and her mindset, then and now, to properly understand what happened and why it happened. Then he can put it into perspective within his marriage, and make decisions going forward.


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## nuclearnightmare

Meltherapist said:


> Hi there,
> 
> Sorry to hear this. It is by definition a clear and absolute betrayal. You did not have a choice- not to marry her due to the lie, but you have a choice now, to stay or go. In my experience issues of betrayal create such deep hurts that couples need help to get through them, so seeing a therapist is advisable. Check out this book it may be helpful to you- When Your Lover Is a Liar: Healing the Wounds of Deception and Betrayal Paperback – by Donna Frazier (Author)
> 
> All the best


:iagree:

she chose you, but you did not choose her. you chose a person that was hiding themselves from you in important ways.
I also think that undercounting past LTRs of boyfriends/girlfriends is one thing. but to not disclose a sexual history that included sex not as an intimate act but as recreation ( with strangers, threesomes etc.) - she hid her values from you...or what her values used to be. 

was not able to read entire thread but how old was she when she married and how many years out was she from her wilder sexual behavior?


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## Locke.Stratos

Coldie said:


> Kevin, she chose you. All the other stuff will drive you crazy.
> 
> Apparently you were the better lover and man, she married you. Not only did she marry you, she denied that these other people even existed or experiences ever happened. She would rather them never to have happened, to please you, than sit back and compare "was he as good as this guy?"
> 
> She married you. No matter how you try to out think this, she chose to be with you for the rest of her life. You were that good, that no matter what she saw and experienced, it wasn't worth risking your love for. She chose to be with you forever, no matter how "good" the lovers were before you (which I doubt they were good).
> 
> Good luck, don't torture yourself over something you can't control.


That's one insecure, meek way of looking at it. Another would be that he chose her based on who she (mis)represented herself to be.



TRy said:


> When you think of the many conversions on the topic they must have had. How many of her friends and family must have been told not to tell him. The degree of lying and deceit must be overwhelming to the OP.


:iagree:

He learned of her past in a conversation with her friends. So basicaly her sexual history is common knowledge amongst those who know her, heck one of the men she'd slept with was at the party kevin1986 was at. He was the last to know. Imagine the cover up and lengths she went to in concealing the truth from him.


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## vellocet

Locke.Stratos said:


> He learned of her past in a conversation with her friends. So basicaly her sexual history is common knowledge amongst those who know her, heck one of the men she'd slept with was at the party kevin1986 was at. He was the last to know. Imagine the cover up and lengths she went to in concealing the truth from him.


Makes me wonder if she did end up cheating on him while they dated.


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## manfromlamancha

Okay Kevin if I now understand this, here are your issues:


First and foremost you definitely made her understand that you were looking for someone with the same values as you and that you did not believe in sex before marriage. This was well before you started a relationship with her. When you did, she lied and said that she had never been with anyone before. This robbed you of your chance to be with someone that you believed had the same beliefs as you. This is further compounded because the very same religious values that you have prevent you from divorcing her. Add to this the fact that you have a child together which makes it even tougher to split.


Secondly, she has lied about this for all of your married life. So she is, in your opinion, a seasoned liar who cannot be trusted going forward.


Third, you are insecure in that she maybe comparing you to her past lovers performance, penis size, etc and that is emasculating.


Fourth, you are worried that you were plan B - that she opted for the safe and stable option, and not someone that she was attracted to primarily (compared with the "bad boys" she had been with).


Fifth, you don't like the idea of others out there knowing your wife carnally while you had no knowledge and came across as some kind of schmuck (in your opinion).


Sixth, you are surprised that even if she did sleep with someone before you, it should have been in a relationship and not some seedy ONS and worse, a threesome. You are surprised at the person she was compared to what you thought she was.


Okay these are six different issues. Of these, issues 1 and 2 are kind of linked. Its easier to first deal with issues 3,4,5 and 6. She chose you and was a faithful wife to you. She showed you nothing but love throughout your marriage and was a great wife and mother. Yes she had a past, but she put it behind her and never let you experience that side of her and was faithful and loving to you.

So putting your religious views aside (issues 1 and 2), you are in no different a position to the vast majority of us out here whose wives had a sexual background before they married us. We would never get anywhere if we started worrying about their pasts. All we can accept is that they could probably have married someone else but chose us because they found us attractive and loved us. And one can never really know if we were somehow Plan B. Having said this, many men suffer from retrospective jealousy and there are counsellors to help cope with this. As for being compared, you can also get counselling for this insecurity. In short, if these are your main issues, then get counselling because you are in the wrong here (yes, I am a pretty black and white kind of person).

Now, to deal with issues 1 and 2 is tougher. She lied to you and there could be many reasons for this but it seems like the primary one is that she wanted to be with you and has shown you this every single day of your marriage. Its wrong that she denied you the choice and the life partner you wanted. There is no doubt that she is in the wrong here - and this is what you have to make your decision on. If she has been a great wife and mom, then I would strongly recommend that you look into how to forgive (not forget) and move on. You could have met someone who was a virgin who turned out to be a real nightmare (and we have seen many cases of that on TAM here - wives who never sowed their oats and needed to). So, in my opinion, the lesser of the two evils is her lying about her past just to be with you, compared to marrying a virgin who turned out to be a nightmare.

Think about it and not just through your religious tinted glasses but as an individual who has actually managed to find a great wife.

Good luck.


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## altawa

kevin1986 said:


> I had a long talk with wife today, i wanted to know why she lied to me.......what she said was she didnt want want me to think less of her. but i cant get passed the one night stands and the 3 somes, why would a woman with self respect put her self in such situations, *she kept saying her ex boyfriend wasnt ready for marriage and that i treated her differently* but that doesnt solve my issues, if she didnt regret her decisions and if she enjoyed her sex romps why did she lie to me about it? now i understand why she was so uncomfertable when she got the invite to go to her home town, now am suppose to brush it off and move on, it just doesnt make sense being made a fool of.
> 
> fact is she should have given me that choice back then, now i have no choice being a christian i dont believe in divorce and i cant let my child grow up in two different homes its not fair on her shes my baby.i feel like i was HER safe choice a provider nothing more, those guys got everything from her with out even trying, now i have to live with her actions.


Anybody catch the bolded? Sounds like she settled and did what she had to do to hook something stable after her bf wouldn't marry her.


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## manfromlamancha

No, what I am reading is that she had a boyfriend and broke if off with him because he probably was a [email protected] or at the very best, not ready to make a commitment to her (probably the same guy who engaged in the threesome - just speculating).

I am also reading that she moved on and got to like Kevin and eventually married him. I also see that when she couldn't live up to his expectations of her past, she lied - and that is very wrong.

Not sure that Kevin was plan B by design. Many current wives broke up with previous boyfriends who were not marriage material. Does not make them bad for doing that.


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## Marduk

kevin1986 said:


> it doesnt feel good to FEEL like,she went out there had her fun then when she wanted to settle down all her exes dissapointed her so she pretended to be my dreamgirl to get me, and to find out her partners number well above 10 makes it even worse to know that more than 10 men out there know my wife intimately i could be walking down the road and meet one of her exes and he would know he had her, that is bugging because i didnt grow up like that.


What are you looking for here man?

You're all over the map on this one. Do you want to stay? Do you want to go?

I'll tell you this -- you have every right to be mad. You were sold a bill of goods pure and simple, and you found out in just about the worst way imaginible -- not from your wife but from a bunch of guys that "knew" your wife or knew guys that knew your wife.

So you have every right to be mad.

The flip side of that is that you don't own your wife's sexuality or her body. What she did before you... is kinda none of your business.

Lying was the WRONG thing to do, and I would be pissed as hell about that.

But what she did before you has nothing to do with what she does with you, or how she feels about you. Now, can you trust anything she says about her past, or how she feels about you, or even how she conducts herself in her marriage is something else.

So... you say you are a Christian and won't divorce her, right? Or do you want to be talked out of that?

Because if you're staying you got some hard -- and rational -- choices to make.


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## Dyokemm

Kevin,

Focus on what is truly important in this situation with your W.

Make sure she really knows how wrong this was.

Make sure she gets counseling if necessary to discover what allowed her to ever think it was acceptable to treat the man she loved and wanted to marry in this deceitful manner so she can work on it, cause it is a character flaw and she needs to correct this aspect/tendency or whatever you want to call it so she is never tempted to use the same 'solution' for any future issues in your M.

And get a firm commitment and understanding from her that this can NEVER happen again in your M if it is to survive.

Rehashing the past and what was done is meaningless if you have an otherwise good M with her.

Creating imaginary comparisons in your head is both foolish and counterproductive to your own mental health...let it go, it means nothing going forward in your M.

Focus on the future.


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## phillybeffandswiss

Kevin, I get why you are upset. You aren't all over the place or looking at things wrong, you just need to slow down. 

Stop interrogating your wife. 

All you are doing is adding numbers to a irrevocable situation. 1 or 10, the initial lie is still the same no matter how many escapades she has had. Deal with the lie and decide on your course of action. If it is marriage breaking, because of the lies, then do what's right and move on. If it is recoverable, then go get counseling and help her understand why this has killed your trust and hurt the marriage.

Oh and I think this is less about your religion and more about an entirely different situation. No, I don't think you are being insecure, overly religious or an egoist for feeling the way you do.

I think it is a major stumbling block, but a minor inconvenience in the grand scheme of a marriage. Then again, I am not in your shoes.


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## Nucking Futs

I want to make a couple of points in response to some of the posts I've been reading.

Kevin did not chose to marry his wife, he chose to marry the person she was pretending to be. It turns out that person never existed. At this point he doesn't actually _know_ his wife.

Some have pointed out that it's not infidelity, she didn't cheat on him. That is a baseless assumption. This is a woman who lied convincingly to her boyfriend/husband for 7 years. You cannot assume that _anything_ she has ever said was the truth. In particular, you cannot assume that someone so clearly sexual turned it off like flipping a light switch when she started pretending to be a virgin. It is much easier to believe that she continued to be sexual to others who accepted that while continuing the deception to her husband. And before you point out that I'm being hypocritical to assume she's been cheating for the last 7 years, I'm not assuming that. I'm simply pointing out that I would find it much harder to believe that she quit cold turkey when she was already deceiving her husband than that she would continue her lifestyle while continuing to hide it. Evidence for cheating? None, just like there is no evidence she is not. 

We know she has been deceiving him about her values. We don't know what else she's been deceiving him about. DNA test the kid and set up a polygraph.


----------



## Marduk

Nucking Futs said:


> I want to make a couple of points in response to some of the posts I've been reading.
> 
> Kevin did not chose to marry his wife, he chose to marry the person she was pretending to be. It turns out that person never existed. At this point he doesn't actually _know_ his wife.
> 
> Some have pointed out that it's not infidelity, she didn't cheat on him. That is a baseless assumption. This is a woman who lied convincingly to her boyfriend/husband for 7 years. You cannot assume that _anything_ she has ever said was the truth. In particular, you cannot assume that someone so clearly sexual turned it off like flipping a light switch when she started pretending to be a virgin. It is much easier to believe that she continued to be sexual to others who accepted that while continuing the deception to her husband. And before you point out that I'm being hypocritical to assume she's been cheating for the last 7 years, I'm not assuming that. I'm simply pointing out that I would find it much harder to believe that she quit cold turkey when she was already deceiving her husband than that she would continue her lifestyle while continuing to hide it. Evidence for cheating? None, just like there is no evidence she is not.
> 
> We know she has been deceiving him about her values. We don't know what else she's been deceiving him about. DNA test the kid and set up a polygraph.


One step at a time man. 

Lots of women are under fantastic pressure to lie about their sexual history. 

Not excusing, but some understanding is warranted. It's clear she lied because she loved him and wanted him. Doesn't make what she did right; clearly he wouldn't have married her. 

But to assume that makes her a cheater... One step at a time. 

Me? I'd give her one week to come clean with every lie since the day we met that had any bearing on their relationship. 

And see if she does. Then take it from there.


----------



## altawa

manfromlamancha said:


> No, what I am reading is that she had a boyfriend and broke if off with him because he probably was a [email protected] or at the very best, not ready to make a commitment to her (probably the same guy who engaged in the threesome - just speculating).
> 
> I am also reading that she moved on and got to like Kevin and eventually married him. I also see that when she couldn't live up to his expectations of her past, she lied - and that is very wrong.
> 
> Not sure that Kevin was plan B by design. Many current wives broke up with previous boyfriends who were not marriage material. Does not make them bad for doing that.


I dont know. That is not how I read that at all. The way I read it, if the ex bf had been into marriage, she would have stayed with him. That she didnt and went to the stable option says a lot. Even more so that she purposely lied about a major deal breaker for the OP to make sure she kept him. That seems to reinforce my theory.


----------



## Dogbert

OP all this could have been avoided by a quick visit to a OB/GYN to verify that your lady was a virgin. Why didn't you do that? Were you afraid you'd lose her if you insisted?

The honor system has been on life support for decades. To protect yourself you've got to get medical and legal protections. As Ronnie Reagan said "Trust but verify"


----------



## that.girl

Dogbert said:


> OP all this could have been avoided by a quick visit to a OB/GYN to verify that your lady was a virgin. Why didn't you do that? Were you afraid you'd lose her if you insisted?
> 
> The honor system has been on life support for decades. To protect yourself you've got to get medical and legal protections. As Ronnie Reagan said "Trust but verify"


That doesn't work so well. Horseback riding, bicycles, self-exploration, etc, can take care of that without a woman ever having sex. And seriously... no. Just no.


----------



## FrazzledSadHusband

When my wife confessed she wasn't a virgin, she said she had done some things willingly, and was forced to do other things. I had to pray and this is the answer I got.

I said to her, "What you did was before you became born again, and the bible says that when you are born again, God puts your sins away as far as the east is from the west. If God no longer sees your sin, who am I to point them out. For the things you were forced to do, you need to seek counseling." I also did express my hurt & disappointment that she did lie to me. In my wife's case, she was extremely repentant, and had confessed as she felt quite bad about it.


----------



## Dogbert

that.girl said:


> That doesn't work so well. Horseback riding, bicycles, self-exploration, etc, can take care of that without a woman ever having sex. And seriously... no. Just no.


I know. I was being facetious and showing how ridiculous it can get by going to paranoid extremes.

When it comes to relationships, we're all inside a huge casino call life. The trick is to stay away from the slot machines and all other sucker bets.


----------



## Nucking Futs

marduk said:


> One step at a time man.
> 
> Lots of women are under fantastic pressure to lie about their sexual history.
> 
> Not excusing, but some understanding is warranted. *It's clear she lied because she loved him* and wanted him. Doesn't make what she did right; clearly he wouldn't have married her.
> 
> But to assume that makes her a cheater... One step at a time.
> 
> Me? I'd give her one week to come clean with every lie since the day we met that had any bearing on their relationship.
> 
> And see if she does. Then take it from there.


No it's not. The only thing that's clear here is that her words cannot be trusted. All else will need to be verified.


----------



## Roselyn

Any updates from you Kevin? You only posted three replies. What is your perspective on your situation?


----------



## larry.gray

'CuseGal said:


> If I had married a guy like you, I would have been terrified for you to have met him, because I wouldn't have been sure you would have believed me if he had continued telling those lies years later. Of course, the man I did marry was experienced, enough so that he knew the first time we slept together that I truly was the virgin I claimed to be...


I totally understand if you say: NONE OF YOUR DAMN BUSINESS, given it is a rather personal question.

Was there physical evidence of breaking a hymen the first time? I've heard all sorts of claims that there often no sign, it can break other ways.... etc. But that's not my personal experience... nor is it among some close friends. I've sometimes wondered if the claims that sometimes there is no blood / tearing is created by those who want to give cover to women like the wife of the OP.


----------



## larry.gray

TRy said:


> When you think of the many conversions on the topic they must have had. How many of her friends and family must have been told not to tell him. The degree of lying and deceit must be overwhelming to the OP.


I hadn't even thought of the family angle! My sis gave it up at 13 and racked up quite a few dudes. Had she tried the virgin bride bit it would have blown me away.


----------



## EleGirl

WeeTry said:


> Are you people really asking women if they are virgin and how many men they have slept with? Why do you even care?
> 
> Your wife did not tell you because of your religion. And I would blame you for this. It's just not fair that a girl must meet conditions of ur religion so you would marry her.
> 
> I personally don't expect woman I hang out with to be virgin. If she is, well nice, if not, who cares. I only care that she is STD clean. Rest does not matter.


Oh my. You are new to TAM aren't you?

I never knew this, but apparently a lot of men not only ask if a woman is a virgin but if she's not, the want an inventory of every man she's had sex with. It even goes so far as some of the guys want an inventory of every sex act she's done as these guys insist that if she's done it in the past she has to do it with them.. even if she does not like it, even if it hurts.....

TAM is has been quite an education.


----------



## TRy

EleGirl said:


> I never knew this, but apparently a lot of men not only ask if a woman is a virgin but if she's not, the want an inventory of every man she's had sex with. It even goes so far as some of the guys want an inventory of every sex act she's done as these guys insist that if she's done it in the past she has to do it with them.. even if she does not like it, even if it hurts.


 When picking a spouse, everyone has a right to set there own standards. It is the one time where political correctness and the opinion of others does not matter. Religion, political party, physical beauty, intelligence, income, age, height, weight, and many other things that would not be legal in hiring an employee, is allowed as factors in picking a spouse. Picking a spouse is not a democratic process where the majority opinion wins; only the OP's opinion matters when he chooses a spouse. If the OP's wife did not agree with the OP's standards, she had the right not to marry him. That is the deal. Just because she and some on this board (including you EleGirl) do not agree with his values, does not give her the right to lie to him, and to tell her friends and family to lie to him, in order to trick him into marring her.


----------



## Dyokemm

Try,

I agree.

It is totally a personal choice or standard, and no one has the right to dictate their values or opinions onto OP just as he would be out of line to insist everyone else on this board accept his.

It is like the choice to R or D that a BS faces...a COMPLETELY personal choice.

While I personally would never care about the virginity or amount of sexual experience of a partner (it simply is inconsequential to me), it DOES mean something to Kevin.

And his W was dead wrong to lie about it to deceive him into M so she could have what she wanted.

Since he says his M has been generally happy and good, I think Kevin and his W's priority should be taking the steps in better communication and counseling for her to make sure this NEVER happens again in the M...she must understand that this unacceptable choice of hers can never be repeated.

But I think jumping to the conclusion that she must have been continuing the lying and cheating during the M is way off based on the facts presented by Kevin.

It is pure speculation and projection....and not helpful to OP and the issues his M really faces at all.


----------



## kevin1986

our trust was strong enough


----------



## that.girl

larry.gray said:


> Was there physical evidence of breaking a hymen the first time? I've heard all sorts of claims that there often no sign, it can break other ways.... etc. But that's not my personal experience... nor is it among some close friends. I've sometimes wondered if the claims that sometimes there is no blood / tearing is created by those who want to give cover to women like the wife of the OP.


I have no idea when i lost my hymen, but it wasn't there the first time I had sex. I assure you, there is no conspiracy to cover up for women "like the wife of OP." 
I've read that in earlier times, young women were often shunned or brutally punished by their new husbands for not having proof of their virginity. I'm sure some lied, but many of these women were totally innocent.


----------



## Divinely Favored

Kevin I am so sorry man. I was married 15 yrs and thought highly of my wife, I prized her...she was married in high school and was going through divorce when I met her. 

Her ex was a musician and serial cheater, so there were years of **** i waded through because of him with her anger and suspicious mind. I knew she had him and maybe 1 or 2 before was possible.

One day she was mad and eying me and said "You know when "ex" cheated on me i went hog wild" 

I immediately went numb and felt like she had stabbed me. I could not talk and she asked if I wanted her to take me back to my truck, all I could do is stare at the dash and nod. Nice lunch there....now I have to go back and deal with convicts.

I felt like she was this beautiful woman that was special and I loved greatly...I felt like she cheated on me by slapping me in the face with them . and it felt like she just spit in my face and told me I don't want your love!

After the look on my face she spent the rest of the day looking for an apartment. She felt like she had cheated on me and wanted to know if I wanted her to leave. The hog wild was 2 revenge ONS after each of the 1st 2 times she caught him cheating. I just had to get my mind around the fact there are two other men who know my wife.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Dyokemm said:


> Try,
> 
> I agree.
> 
> It is totally a personal choice or standard, and no one has the right to dictate their values or opinions onto OP just as he would be out of line to insist everyone else on this board accept his.
> 
> It is like the choice to R or D that a BS faces...a COMPLETELY personal choice.
> 
> While I personally would never care about the virginity or amount of sexual experience of a partner (it simply is inconsequential to me), it DOES mean something to Kevin.
> 
> And his W was dead wrong to lie about it to deceive him into M so she could have what she wanted.
> 
> Since he says his M has been generally happy and good, I think Kevin and his W's priority should be taking the steps in better communication and counseling for her to make sure this NEVER happens again in the M...she must understand that this unacceptable choice of hers can never be repeated.
> 
> *But I think jumping to the conclusion that she must have been continuing the lying and cheating during the M is way off based on the facts presented by Kevin.*
> 
> It is pure speculation and projection....and not helpful to OP and the issues his M really faces at all.


Two problems with the part in bold: One, it's not jumping to a conclusion that she "continued the lying" during the marriage, it's an established fact. Two, I am not jumping to any conclusion that she cheated during the marriage. _You_ are jumping to the conclusion that she didn't, and there is no known evidence either way. Since no one has ever looked for evidence the fact that none is known doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

We've all seen threads where a nice man with a stable job marries a woman with a past, has a kid or kids, sometimes with multiple fathers, and as soon as the kids reach 18 she divorces him. Is Kevin merely a beta provider? I don't know. Neither do the rest of you who are trying to convince him to give a proven lier the benefit of the doubt.

I am not suggesting divorce. I am suggesting doing everything he can to verify what he thinks he knows, and moving forward in this relationship with a skeptical mind until she has proven herself. She's lied to him for 7 years, she's going to have to put in some significant time before he'll be able to trust her.


----------



## Observer

phillybeffandswiss said:


> She made a life alerting decision, for both of their lives, on her own. That's selfish whether you want to admit it or not.


Never said it was not selfish...it was for sure. I would be mad as hell too if I were lied to prior to marriage..I get that. I choose not to pile on though and put stupid immature thoughts into his head though. I would hope people would help me get over it and not make it worse. He came here I presume for advice how to get past this. I just don't see how some of the comments trashing her are going to help him do that. "Your marriage is a lie", "she is evil...a deceiver", "get checked for STDs...have your kid DNA checked". Yeah that is really going to help him. You have no idea what type of woman she is or wife she has been. 

Anyone over 40...was your decision making process the same at 20 as it is now?


----------



## bfree

Observer said:


> Never said it was not selfish...it was for sure. I would be mad as hell too if I were lied to prior to marriage..I get that. I choose not to pile on though and put stupid immature thoughts into his head though. I would hope people would help me get over it and not make it worse. He came here I presume for advice how to get past this. I just don't see how some of the comments trashing her are going to help him do that. "Your marriage is a lie", "she is evil...a deceiver", "get checked for STDs...have your kid DNA checked". Yeah that is really going to help him. You have no idea what type of woman she is or wife she has been.
> 
> *Anyone over 40...was your decision making process the same at 20 as it is now?*


No, but my values, morality code and sense of honor are.


----------



## Thor

EleGirl said:


> I never knew this, but apparently a lot of men not only ask if a woman is a virgin but if she's not, the want an inventory of every man she's had sex with. It even goes so far as some of the guys want an inventory of every sex act she's done as these guys insist that if she's done it in the past she has to do it with them.. even if she does not like it, even if it hurts.....


I think this is probably related to youth, and probably social factors.

When/where I grew up, most of my high school classmates were virgins. Probably 80%. So at 19 or 20 years old, way back then, one could draw some pretty clear lines between women who were potential long term relationship material and those who were not.

Virginity aside, if a woman had ONS or a string of very short term sexual relationships it was an outlier.

And it does cut both ways. Most men who showed up at college were also virgins. If you're looking for a girlfriend you didn't want to feel inferior _to her_. Most guys probably pretended they were *not* a virgin the first time they had sex with a girl!

When you were serious about getting married, you didn't want to be laughed at by the guys because they'd all been with her too. Norms were a lot different back then for both sexes.


----------



## Observer

bfree said:


> No, but my values, morality code and sense of honor are.


And at 20 you never did, said things, or acted in a way that went against those values, morality code, or sense of honor?


----------



## Marduk

kevin1986 said:


> our trust was strong enough


What does that mean?

How you doing? Where's your head at?

Everybody else -- we can debate the ins and outs of this at many levels, but none of that is gonna help kevin (or his wife).


----------



## Marduk

Nucking Futs said:


> Two problems with the part in bold: One, it's not jumping to a conclusion that she "continued the lying" during the marriage, it's an established fact. Two, I am not jumping to any conclusion that she cheated during the marriage. _You_ are jumping to the conclusion that she didn't, and there is no known evidence either way. Since no one has ever looked for evidence the fact that none is known doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
> 
> We've all seen threads where a nice man with a stable job marries a woman with a past, has a kid or kids, sometimes with multiple fathers, and as soon as the kids reach 18 she divorces him. Is Kevin merely a beta provider? I don't know. Neither do the rest of you who are trying to convince him to give a proven lier the benefit of the doubt.
> 
> I am not suggesting divorce. I am suggesting doing everything he can to verify what he thinks he knows, and moving forward in this relationship with a skeptical mind until she has proven herself. She's lied to him for 7 years, she's going to have to put in some significant time before he'll be able to trust her.


The point is that it's too soon to go there. It's bad enough what this guy is going through.

You ask this question when you are at that step. We don't know where the heck kevin is.

Kevin, man, if you want help here you have to give us something to work with. Otherwise all you're going to read is abstractions about societal norms, and people jumping around all over the place.


----------



## ConanHub

bfree said:


> No, but my values, morality code and sense of honor are.


Met my wife when I was 20. No lies from either side.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ConanHub

marduk raised a point I'm curious about as well. Where you at Kev?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TRy

Dyokemm said:


> But I think jumping to the conclusion that she must have been continuing the lying and cheating during the M is way off based on the facts presented by Kevin.


 It is not jumping to conclusions that she continued to lie to him. Every time that he talked to her about how great it was that they waited for each other to have sex, she either directly lied by agreeing with him, or lied by omission by not disagreeing with him. Also, she and the OP were socializing at a party where men were present that she had been sexually active with, and maybe even had a threesome with, without giving the OP a heads up to her past with these other men. Knowing full well his value system, that was a lie by omission.


----------



## Thor

marduk said:


> Kevin, man, if you want help here you have to give us something to work with. Otherwise all you're going to read is abstractions about societal norms, and people jumping around all over the place.


:iagree:

Yup, this topic of a woman's past is like throwing red meat at a pride of lions. I'm always cautious about them, especially with little data or participation by the OP.


----------



## EleGirl

TRy said:


> When picking a spouse, everyone has a right to set there own standards. It is the one time where political correctness and the opinion of others does not matter. Religion, political party, physical beauty, intelligence, income, age, height, weight, and many other things that would not be legal in hiring an employee, is allowed as factors in picking a spouse. Picking a spouse is not a democratic process where the majority opinion wins; only the OP's opinion matters when he chooses a spouse. If the OP's wife did not agree with the OP's standards, she had the right not to marry him.* That is the deal. Just because she and some on this board (including you EleGirl) do not agree with his values, does not give her the right to lie to him, and to tell her friends and family to lie to him, in order to trick him into marring her*.



You are twisting what I have said. 

In more than one post I have clearly stated that she was wrong, very wrong, to lie to him about her sexual past. I also agree that he has every right to chose a wife by any criteria he wants to.

Anyone has the right to use whatever criteria they want in choosing a spouse. So do I. I would never marry or date a man who was needed an inventory of my sexual past. It's not because I have a wild sexual past. It's that men who need this (often, not always, but often) later twist this information and use it to punish, humiliate and even try to force their wife into sexual acts that she is not comfortable with. I want nothing to do with a man like that. See I have my criteria too. And I am entitled to chose my own criteria for picking a spouse as well.

In that post I was talking about a general thing that I have noticed about a good never of men on TAM that I had never run into before.


----------



## EleGirl

that.girl said:


> I have no idea when i lost my hymen, but it wasn't there the first time I had sex. I assure you, there is no conspiracy to cover up for women "like the wife of OP."
> I've read that in earlier times, young women were often shunned or brutally punished by their new husbands for not having proof of their virginity. I'm sure some lied, but many of these women were totally innocent.


Same here. There was no bleeding, etc. That's just the way it was.

The old idea of a hymen tearing and bleeding is just not an accurate way of determining virginity. I've read that in societies that require the blood on a marriage night, girls (yes most brides are girls) are given blood (chicken blood) to use just to ensure that there is blood on the sheets. It's the older women who do this because they know that the young girl, even if she is a virgin, will suffer for the rest of her life if there is no blood.


----------



## vellocet

WeeTry said:


> Are you people really asking women if they are virgin and how many men they have slept with? Why do you even care?


No, and I really don't care for a woman I'm with. Although certain activities wouldn't sit well with me, like if she was a prostitute or engaged in 3somes.  Sorry, but I just don't want anyone that has done those things.




> Your wife did not tell you because of your religion. And I would blame you for this. It's just not fair that a girl must meet conditions of ur religion so you would marry her.


Its perfectly fair. If he is a virgin and wants someone like minded like him, someone who will refrain from premarital sex...its perfectly fair. He should be able to find someone like himself, she should be able to find someone like herself.

And she didn't "just" tell him because of his religion. First off, it wasn't a matter of "not telling" him. She let him believe she had not had premarital sex. Not the same thing as not telling.

Second, its not just his religion. He wanted someone like himself, he wanted someone who hasn't had premarital sex. Its his preference.



> I personally don't expect woman I hang out with to be virgin.


Neither do I, especially since I'm not one myself. But he does because he is a virgin.


----------



## vellocet

Kev was lied to. The choice of the type of person he wanted to marry was taken away from him.

So now, hearing everyone correctly that do not agree with him, is that he was lied to....oh well. He just needs to get help and suck it up.

Here is what I see happening. He will get help, he will end up forgiving her and moving on. And I am not even suggesting he divorce her over this. He is simply in between a rock and a hard place with his feelings.

She will be relieved and live the life she wants, while he will always, from time to time, think about this. It will eat at him, but staying true to what some here want, he will just have to suck it up, not bring it up to his wife, and just live a life that will always be less than what he wanted. He'll be conflicted inside, but she may never know it because he will keep it to himself and carry the burden of what she did.

I guess he is just going to have to be content with that, and his wife will have gotten away with taking away his choice.


----------



## ConanHub

What if she was really a he?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

WeeTry said:


> Are you people really asking women if they are virgin and how many men they have slept with? Why do you even care?


No. Don't mix all of us with the OP's belief system.


WeeTry said:


> Your wife did not tell you because of your religion. And I would blame you for this. It's just not fair that a girl must meet conditions of ur religion so you would marry her.


If he held himself to the same standard it is more than fair. Oh and irony alert.



WeeTry said:


> I only care that she is STD clean.


This is a condition and most of us have them for people we decide to marry. Some are petty and some are serious.


WeeTry said:


> I personally don't expect woman I hang out with to be virgin. If she is, well nice, if not, who cares. I only care that she is STD clean. Rest does not matter.


Neither do I, but what you, I or others feel is irrelevant to his belief system.


----------



## bfree

Observer said:


> And at 20 you never did, said things, or acted in a way that went against those values, morality code, or sense of honor?


No. I did a lot of things, especially when I sunk into a pit of sexual promiscuity, drug abuse and alcoholism. But most of what I did during that period was harmful only to myself. I had sex with a lot of women but I never bedded a married woman and I made sure to never get involved emotionally with any of them lest they be drawn into the mess that was my life. I did drugs but I never committed any crimes other than to buy them for my own consumption. I drank most days until I passed out but I never got behind the wheel while drunk. In fact I stopped driving altogether during that time because I knew I couldn't not drink.

During this sad time in my life I still helped little old ladies across the street, shoveled out my handicapped neighbor's house, treated people with respect and kindness (except for my own family that tried to get me to clean up, to them I was hostile and later apologized for my behavior.)

Most of all I did not try to conceal my bad behavior. Everyone knew what I was and what I was doing. And when I did eventually clean up and began dating my wife I told her all about myself and what I'd done. I wanted a relationship built on honesty and integrity, especially after I'd struggled so long to dig myself out of the morass of despair my life had become.

Some people can be broken but still choose not to break others along the way.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Observer said:


> Never said it was not selfish...it was for sure. I would be mad as hell too if I were lied to prior to marriage..I get that. I choose not to pile on though and put stupid immature thoughts into his head though. I would hope people would help me get over it and not make it worse. He came here I presume for advice how to get past this. I just don't see how some of the comments trashing her are going to help him do that. "Your marriage is a lie", "she is evil...a deceiver", "get checked for STDs...have your kid DNA checked". Yeah that is really going to help him. You have no idea what type of woman she is or wife she has been.


Cherry picking always leads to excessive irony. I know she was selfish. 


Observer said:


> Anyone over 40...was your decision making process the same at 20 as it is now?


Yes and no.


----------



## Hicks

You were lied to. 
You can make a choice now. Stay married or divorce.

Lets say you stay married. You were lied to and betrayed. After you decide to stay married, it's no longer your job to give a consequence to your wife, it's God's. Your life will be happier if you accept that you were lied to like so many before you, and move on to pursue happiness in your marriage and life.


----------



## Dogbert

Since he threw the "I'm a Christian and I don't believe in divorce" monkey wrench, it makes it extremely difficult to advise him on how he should proceed from a secular POV. Maybe he is best served by a faith based counselor that can help him arrive with a solution that fits his needs, if he hasn't sought one already.


----------



## Divinely Favored

Kevin

If I were in your shoes I would have to have a list of names...and I would ask which was the 3 some with, if she points to one then say what other one? Was she double teamed(BGB) or was it her and girl friend with a guy? Then i would look on her FB and see if she is friended to any of them or had conversations with any of them. 

I believe you're like me in that sex is not just sex. It is so much more. To take the years of ridicule from other guys. Looking for that special girl to give the gift to that you can only give once in your life. I know i was 22. The fact she had 3some shows sex does not hold the same level of meaning as it does with you.

Biblically you have justified grounds for divorce due to her sexual immorality.

if you can get past this...due to her lying for the past 7 yrs. I would have to ask for a polly to believe none of this went on since yall were dating. I would not allow GNO, NO MORE REUNIONS/HOME TOWN TRIPS , access to all her media, all those people on the list would be blocked from FB too.

But that's me..I do not believe a couple should have GNO/BNO or separate vacations. My wife and I have a FB page TOGETHER..have full access to each others emails and phones.

Take her off the pedestal ...I hurts to not be able to be as proud of her, that some thing you cherished is tarnished and broken..she is human and hopefully it was not done since yall started dating. Is there things you have done that you would be ashamed to admit to her? I know there is things I have done I would be ashamed for my wife to have known about.


If the marriage has been good till now. Think back to when she was carrying your child.....to me that feeling I had knowing my wife loved me enough to want to carry MY child.(#2 is 10 today BTW). THAT.is the emotional glue that binds me and makes me love her the most.


----------



## vellocet

Divinely Favored said:


> Kevin
> 
> If I were in your shoes I would have to have a list of names...and I would ask which was the 3 some with


You know, I wouldn't ever want to know or care to know a list of people a SO of mine has been with.

However, I WOULD want to know whoever it was she had a 3some with. I don't want to be standing somewhere with her and perhaps end up talking to 2 guys that doubled teamed her, and I'm standing there like an unknowing jackass. 

If it were someone I didn't know and the likelihood of me running into them was nil, that would be one thing. But looks like Kev and her had the same circle of acquaintances.

Maybe they are no longer anywhere around, and that would be somewhat better. 

So here is something, is Kev's wife still "friends" with some of these people? Does she facebook them? If not, then that could help Kev out in dealing with this.

If they are still acquaintances, then it wouldn't be wrong of Kev to expect her to delete them.

So Kev, is she still in contact with any of these people? If not, this is not an unfixable situation. I understand you'll probably always have your reservations, but as long as she is doing all right by you, you can get past this I think.


----------



## Dogbert

Since the information was gotten under the influence of alcohol maybe further information can be had by getting all the "persons of interest" sh!t faced drunk. Just kidding.


----------



## ConanHub

Her home town should probably be off limits. She has a reputation there that will keep biting her and Kev.

Have you had any talks with your wife? What did your short statement earlier mean? Care to elaborate?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dyokemm

""Two problems with the part in bold: One, it's not jumping to a conclusion that she "continued the lying" during the marriage, it's an established fact. Two, I am not jumping to any conclusion that she cheated during the marriage. You are jumping to the conclusion that she didn't, and there is no known evidence either way. Since no one has ever looked for evidence the fact that none is known doesn't mean it doesn't exist."

Nucking,

I agree 100% that the lying about her sexual past continued throughout the M until revealed recently.

I should have been more clear that I meant lying about new cheating AFTER the M.

And you're right, based on the facts of the M Kevin gave us, there must be an assumption that she has not cheated since even HE has not suggested there us any indication she has been unfaithful in the M....he actually said that the M has been good and only this recent discovering of the initial lying (which is completely unacceptable).

Until Kevin posts further evidence and suspicions, I will refrain from pure speculation.

And sorry, but I think you did kind of suggest she must have probably continued with deception and cheating, when you posted your opinion that you found it harder to believe she suddenly 'flipped a switch' and stopped her wild behavior from before she became involved with Kevin than to accept that she had only lied about her past.

Anyway I try to interpret that, it comes out as you suggesting she is most likely cheating in the M...despite there being no facts posted by Kevin to support this view.

Here is the post I'm referring to:

" In particular, you cannot assume that someone so clearly sexual turned it off like flipping a light switch when she started pretending to be a virgin. It is much easier to believe that she continued to be sexual to others who accepted that while continuing the deception to her husband."

No offense or attack meant with this post, but I'm just pointing out what I interpreted you as saying.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Dyokemm said:


> ""Two problems with the part in bold: One, it's not jumping to a conclusion that she "continued the lying" during the marriage, it's an established fact. Two, I am not jumping to any conclusion that she cheated during the marriage. You are jumping to the conclusion that she didn't, and there is no known evidence either way. Since no one has ever looked for evidence the fact that none is known doesn't mean it doesn't exist."
> 
> Nucking,
> 
> I agree 100% that the lying about her sexual past continued throughout the M until revealed recently.
> 
> I should have been more clear that I meant lying about new cheating AFTER the M.
> 
> And you're right, based on the facts of the M Kevin gave us, there must be an assumption that she has not cheated since even HE has not suggested there us any indication she has been unfaithful in the M....he actually said that the M has been good and only this recent discovering of the initial lying (which is completely unacceptable).
> 
> Until Kevin posts further evidence and suspicions, I will refrain from pure speculation.
> 
> And sorry, but I think you did kind of suggest she must have probably continued with deception and cheating, when you posted your opinion that you found it harder to believe she suddenly 'flipped a switch' and stopped her wild behavior from before she became involved with Kevin than to accept that she had only lied about her past.
> 
> Anyway I try to interpret that, it comes out as you suggesting she is most likely cheating in the M...despite there being no facts posted by Kevin to support this view.
> 
> Here is the post I'm referring to:
> 
> " In particular, you cannot assume that someone so clearly sexual turned it off like flipping a light switch when she started pretending to be a virgin. It is much easier to believe that she continued to be sexual to others who accepted that while continuing the deception to her husband."
> 
> No offense or attack meant with this post, but I'm just pointing out what I interpreted you as saying.


I'm not saying she is "most likely" cheating in the M. I'm saying she _may_ be cheating in the M. You and I both know that a young husband inexperienced in marriage and detecting cheating is easily fooled by an experienced liar, so claiming that he didn't catch her cheating therefore she was not cheating is ridiculous.

We know he hasn't caught her cheating, but we also know he hasn't investigated if she is. We know that he can't tell when she's lying to him since she's continued to fool him for 7 years until the cat was let out of the bag by a third party. We don't _know_ anything else. We don't _know_ that she hasn't continued cheating during the last 7 years. We don't _know_ that Kevin is the biological father of his child.

I'm not advising him to divorce her. I'm telling him to verify the information she's giving him. Trust will have to be re-established if this marriage is to survive, and verifying that she didn't lie about paternity or cheating during the relationship will go a long way toward rebuilding that trust. 

In my opinion advising Kevin or anyone else to blindly trust the word of a proven liar is not good advice.


----------



## Thor

vellocet said:


> You know, I wouldn't ever want to know or care to know a list of people a SO of mine has been with.
> 
> However, I WOULD want to know whoever it was she had a 3some with. I don't want to be standing somewhere with her and perhaps end up talking to 2 guys that doubled teamed her, and I'm standing there like an unknowing jackass.
> 
> If it were someone I didn't know and the likelihood of me running into them was nil, that would be one thing. But looks like Kev and her had the same circle of acquaintances.
> .
> .
> .
> So Kev, is she still in contact with any of these people? If not, this is not an unfixable situation. I understand you'll probably always have your reservations, but as long as she is doing all right by you, you can get past this I think.


For Kevin, I think getting a list of names is important in 2 ways. One is to establish in his own mind that he has the full truth. This is akin to getting a cheater to write out a timeline of the affair. Kevin has to believe in his heart that she has fully revealed everything to him. Otherwise he will always have doubts, and it will destroy the marrige. The second reason is that she has to feel some humility. There is no other real consequence to be applied here to her. She should be doing this voluntarily, and it will be uncomfortable. It helps teach her that lying to her husband has unpleasant outcomes for her.

Another reason to get names is so Kevin can know who he has been around in the past that was actually a former sex partner of hers. Hopefully there is noone else other than this one get together, and having that information would be a relief.

As to cutting off all contact, yes she has to do that. Just as in any marriage, there should be zero contact with previous lovers unless unavoidable, such as children.


----------



## kevin1986

Some one asked me how i am?.am definately pissed of with her , now she is telling me that she was wrong to lie but her having sex was just for fun, and our sex life means more to her than what she had in the past, and i dont believe that for some one to be a good lover one needs to sleep around , i know people with countless partners yet complain about how there wives are not satisfied, trust me am not worried about satisfying my wife i know i do. But i feel her regret was the lie but her sleeping around was okay because it had nothing to do with her, shes pushing me to become something am not. I can be just like next guy sleep around and still pretend to be happy with her
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Locke.Stratos

kevin1986 said:


> I can be just like next guy sleep around and still pretend to be happy with her_Posted via Mobile Device_


Maybe I'm misreading the above but I hope you don't mean that you want to sleep around and cheat while you're married.

I'm all for you being outraged and I can imagine that you're still emotionally raw but I'd think that that's not who you are.


----------



## Divinely Favored

Thor said:


> vellocet said:
> 
> 
> 
> You know, I wouldn't ever want to know or care to know a list of people a SO of mine has been with.
> 
> However, I WOULD want to know whoever it was she had a 3some with. I don't want to be standing somewhere with her and perhaps end up talking to 2 guys that doubled teamed her, and I'm standing there like an unknowing jackass.
> 
> If it were someone I didn't know and the likelihood of me running into them was nil, that would be one thing. But looks like Kev and her had the same circle of acquaintances.
> .
> .
> .
> So Kev, is she still in contact with any of these people? If not, this is not an unfixable situation. I understand you'll probably always have your reservations, but as long as she is doing all right by you, you can get past this I think.
> 
> 
> 
> For Kevin, I think getting a list of names is important in 2 ways. One is to establish in his own mind that he has the full truth. This is akin to getting a cheater to write out a timeline of the affair. Kevin has to believe in his heart that she has fully revealed everything to him. Otherwise he will always have doubts, and it will destroy the marrige. The second reason is that she has to feel some humility. There is no other real consequence to be applied here to her. She should be doing this voluntarily, and it will be uncomfortable. It helps teach her that lying to her husband has unpleasant outcomes for her.
> 
> Another reason to get names is so Kevin can know who he has been around in the past that was actually a former sex partner of hers. Hopefully there is noone else other than this one get together, and having that information would be a relief.
> 
> As to cutting off all contact, yes she has to do that. Just as in any marriage, there should be zero contact with previous lovers unless unavoidable, such as children.
Click to expand...


He also can try to verify there has been no further contact with past sex buddies since marriage or he could ask Her in a poly.


----------



## kevin1986

Locke.Stratos said:


> Maybe I'm misreading the above but I hope you don't mean that you want to sleep around and cheat while you're married.
> I'm all for you being outraged and I can imagine that you're still emotionally raw but I'd think that that's not who you are.


 well because she is trying to convince me that what she did was just sex, and her sisters are also on my case that why am i worried about her past. She is a good woman at heart and thats why it hurts even more. The lie i will get over it, but knowing that she gave it up to 10 plus men for free really bugs me
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Locke.Stratos

kevin1986 said:


> well because she is trying to convince me that what she did was just sex, and her sisters are also on my case that why am i worried about her past. She is a good woman at heart and thats why it hurts even more. The lie i will get over it, but knowing that she gave it up to 10 plus men for free really bugs me
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No matter what her sisters tell you, you have every right to be upset and feel the way that you do. You shouldn't allow them to undermine your hurt and anger. Keep in mind that they're HER sisters so obviously she's the one that they're looking out for. What her sisters say or do will be in your wife's best interest, remember they were complicit in her deception.

I am truly sorry that she lied to you and that you're dealing with so much now. Her lie was beyond a lie. It was a pretence that she kept going up until you found out the truth from someone else. I imagine that most people who know her were aware of her past sexual history and were instructed to keep up the charade of her being a virgin. She should have loved and respected you enough to be honest with you. Instead she lied and allowed you to believe that your were the only person that she had been sexually intimate with for your entire relationship.

I do not know what to tell you to help you through this. I will say that whatever you're feeling and thinking you should communicate to her. If she is under the misguided belief that it was just sex and that you should get over this then tell her that you're thinking of sleeping around. I'm sure that her attitude towards how this has affected you, it just being sex and that it was just a simple lie will change. If it was "just sex" then why did she feel the need to lie to you and go through the lengths that she to hide her sexual past from you?

What do you think that you need or what to do in this?


----------



## Decorum

Meltherapist said:


> Hi there,
> 
> Sorry to hear this. It is by definition a clear and absolute betrayal. You did not have a choice- not to marry her due to the lie, but you have a choice now, to stay or go. In my experience issues of betrayal create such deep hurts that couples need help to get through them, so seeing a therapist is advisable. Check out this book it may be helpful to you- When Your Lover Is a Liar: Healing the Wounds of Deception and Betrayal Paperback – by Donna Frazier (Author)
> 
> All the best


Without looking like a shill here let me say that I think it is an absolute betrayal as well.

That said...



kevin1986 said:


> Some one asked me how i am?.am definately pissed of with her , now she is telling me that she was wrong to lie but her having sex was just for fun, and our sex life means more to her than what she had in the past, and i dont believe that for some one to be a good lover one needs to sleep around , i know people with countless partners yet complain about how there wives are not satisfied, trust me am not worried about satisfying my wife i know i do. But i feel her regret was the lie but her sleeping around was okay because it had nothing to do with her, shes pushing me to become something am not. I can be just like next guy sleep around and still pretend to be happy with her
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Kevin in her mind her only hope of restoring your marriage is for you to accept her and her past because she cannot change it now.

In your mind you want to know that she deeply regret not saving herself for you, that it was the biggest mistake of her life, (Ok and that there is no comparison between you and them)

Listen, the two of you are having TWO DIFFERENT CONVERSATIONS and talking past each other, I believe she is making a mistake in her approach, it will backfire.

This is why you both need to get some help SOON!!!

She was driven by need and self discovery and lust, that is actually fairly normal, but you wanted to go through that together.

She will have a difficult time completely renouncing herself here and so she is defensive, because of that she is not speaking to you on the level of your need and hurt. THAT IS WHAT NEEDS TO HAPPEN!!!

You both need to talk to someone with the tools to get that done.

You will grieve the loss of your image of her, that will take time, she needs to know how to support you without feeling the need to justify herself or condemn herself.


One more thing...

Please do not confuse your offense with being a Christian, you cant say "I will not divorce because I am a Christian" while holding resentment, bitterness, or unforgiveness!!!

You know the law do you know grace? Do you know what it means to die to yourself? I would say no, but God is giving you a clear opportunity to learn to do so.

When Jesus says "If any man would come after me let him take up his cross (The instrument of his own death) and follow me" do you say no Lord it's to heavy?

You are bringing the "Christian" issue into this, fine, but follow the Whole Counsel of God not just what you want to pick and choose.

You are hurt and offended, well and good, (I would be too) but don't dress that up as righteousness indignation and ignore the weightier issues...

""How terrible it will be for you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your mint, dill, and cummin, but have neglected the more important matters of the Law: justice, mercy, and faithfulness. These are the things you should have practiced, without neglecting the others" Matt 23:23

I really do wish you both well, take care!


----------



## Divinely Favored

in the past 7 years of lying and deception is not just in the past. the sisters not only are they for their sister they were probably just as bad if not worse. if they give in to what you believe there thinking what does that say about them

Just fun and just sex ...how many BS have heard those. I would have a hard time dealing with the fact "sex" means soo little to her. I would have to know if she has had contact with any of the past partners since your relationship started.

All the yrs of lies and deception...Just fun...Just sex. Any males not related to her would not be allowed on social media. 

This would drive me nuts. Its like she committed adultery. ..the woman you married was "PURE" in your mind/heart, now you discover over 10 men have been with her...including a 3 some. I would have to dig or poly for any conversations that went on, after you were together, with possible partners or girl friends discussing those men or her sexual escapades. See if there has been reminiscing so to speak.


----------



## user_zero

kevin1986 said:


> Some one asked me how i am?.am definately pissed of with her , now she is telling me that *she was wrong to lie but* her having sex was just for fun, and our sex life means more to her than what she had in the past, and i dont believe that for some one to be a good lover one needs to sleep around , i know people with countless partners yet complain about how there wives are not satisfied, trust me am not worried about satisfying my wife i know i do. But i feel her regret was the lie but her sleeping around was okay because it had nothing to do with her, shes pushing me to become something am not. I can be just like next guy sleep around and still pretend to be happy with her
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


frankly, the fact that her lying (and continued lying during the whole of marriage) are easily dismissed by her is very disturbing to me. :scratchhead: don't be surprised to find more lies in the future.


----------



## bigfoot

I so get your point. lying, extreme sexual past, she would never have gotten a second look. I, too, grew up very religious and only wanted a virgin. Here's the thing, you don't have one. She wanted you so bad that she lied to get you. That is, in an odd way, flattering and proof of how badly she wants you.

Also, and not to turn this into a religious debate, but, if your religion is Christianity, you now have to show that you strive for all the principals and not just the morality parts. Forgiveness. That may be as hard for you now in regards to your wife (who has not cheated on you) and is the mother of your kids as chastity was for her back when she was single and had no duty of loyalty to you.

As far as other men getting it for free, well that's a bit of a stretch. Not to be crass, but you could have too, from her. You chose not to. I'd get it if she cheated, but in truth, you got everything you wanted in this woman except virginity. I know from my search for a virgin, there are a lot of them, but marriage wise, they were like any other woman... not for me. You could still be single searching for that one marriageble virgin (most likely) or married to someone you imagine would be better. (less likely)

Finally, if you last 25 years with this woman, you will realize that her virginity status played no part.


----------



## Lostinthought61

I get your angry, i get she lied, and i get that she has had more experiences then you...what will make you move from this, that is really the question at hand...

Are you concern that if she lied about this what else has she been holding back....can you trust her in the future?

would her allowing you to have a hall pass to experience sex with other be sufficient....because it will still not take away from her lie

would divorce on the pretense of a lie be satisfactory, on the grounds of mental cruelty

would punishing her in some way do it...for her deceit and lies?
and what kind of punishment would fit the crime...perhaps brand her with a mark of a liar...

Kevin i get this hurts your position as a man, as a Christian, as a partner and husband....what will it take to move on?


----------



## bfree

I really hate to say what I'm about to say but this thought popped into my head and I'd be remiss if I didn't offer it up. If she is saying it was just sex then if she someday starts to miss the "variety" and strays from the marriage will she use the same excuse. "I still love you Kevin, it was just sex." I really didn't want to mention it because all indications are that she has been a good and loyal wife. And granted I don't really know what else she could have said about her sexual past. But that statement just bothers me.


----------



## leon1

Was she ever going to tell you the truth , you should be weary of a person who can lie so easily


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

C'mon now, her lie isn't anything like committing adultery. What she did was reprehensible, but she did those acts while they were friends and before they became serious. 

Tell her sisters to shut up and you two work this out with outside help.


----------



## Divinely Favored

It would be a start if she really"got it" as to what she has done and quit minimizing it. She should support him and his hurt and tell her sisters to STFU she royally screwed up here. She should be acting like/heavy lifting of a remorseful wayward to repair this. To me the hurt is similar, though not as bad. I would also have issues with any of her friends who knew and helped to keep it a secret.


----------



## doubletrouble

Thor said:


> If you divorce her, any other woman you meet will have a past.


And guess what? So will you now.


----------



## doubletrouble

vellocet said:


> At what point does one wonder that she misses her 3somes? That would be in the back of my mind.


I see your point here, Vell, but I had threesomes in my younger years and I don't miss them.


----------



## that.girl

I'm having a little trouble with all the statements about how she "continued to lie" throughout the marriage. She definitely failed to come clean, and that was wrong. But you guys make it sounds like they were having weekly discussions about how great her lack of experience was, and i don't see where that happened. We don't know if she kept lying, or just didn't admit her lie.


----------



## italianjob

that.girl said:


> I'm having a little trouble with all the statements about how she "continued to lie" throughout the marriage. She definitely failed to come clean, and that was wrong. But you guys make it sounds like they were having weekly discussions about how great her lack of experience was, and i don't see where that happened. We don't know if she kept lying, or just didn't admit her lie.


Well, I think the subject probably came up on wedding night, that should be a safe enough guess. And it also might have come up if they ever tried anything sexual beyond missionary...


----------



## Thor

kevin1986 said:


> well because she is trying to convince me that what she did was just sex, and her sisters are also on my case that why am i worried about her past. She is a good woman at heart and thats why it hurts even more. The lie i will get over it, but knowing that she gave it up to 10 plus men for free really bugs me
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Your wife has a different view of sex than you do. I am not sure you really get that. Think of someone you know who is really into food, the kind of person who talks about their next meal. Yeah, the rest of us enjoy eating, but to us it is just food. But the foodie, to them it is different. For people like you, you're the foodie when it comes to sex. But for your wife, she enjoys sex but it doesn't have the same _meaning_ it does for you.

Part of this is your basic world view on sex. You have a sacred belief about it. But I think another part of it is you having only ever been with your wife. For her, sex doesn't have that sacred aspect.

It doesn't mean she doesn't enjoy, want, and value sex with you. You two simply have _different_ views about it. One isn't better or worse, just different.

I still remember the sting when my wife said "it's just sex". To some extent I think this is a byproduct of having multiple partners, and to some extent a basic view of sex. It doesn't reflect on you, it reflects on _her_.

Basic biochemistry science is that she will bond to you via having orgasms. So there is still the emotional aspect for her.

Sex won't be the same for you, though. It will become a little bit of "just sex" to you, too.

You are focused on the wrong part of the issue. Imagine this scenario: You two fell in love back then, and got engaged. At some point she came to you and told you about her past. She asked you to forgive her for not telling you sooner. She was genuinely remorseful for not telling you when things were getting serious. You eventually decided you loved her, she is a good person, and you got married. She regularly showed and professed her devotion to you. There was never a doubt you were #1 in her book, and she was thankful she never ended up with anyone else.

The context of her previous sex life is very different, isn't it?


----------



## manfromlamancha

manfromlamancha said:


> Okay Kevin if I now understand this, here are your issues:
> 
> 
> First and foremost you definitely made her understand that you were looking for someone with the same values as you and that you did not believe in sex before marriage. This was well before you started a relationship with her. When you did, she lied and said that she had never been with anyone before. This robbed you of your chance to be with someone that you believed had the same beliefs as you. This is further compounded because the very same religious values that you have prevent you from divorcing her. Add to this the fact that you have a child together which makes it even tougher to split.
> 
> 
> Secondly, she has lied about this for all of your married life. So she is, in your opinion, a seasoned liar who cannot be trusted going forward.
> 
> 
> Third, you are insecure in that she maybe comparing you to her past lovers performance, penis size, etc and that is emasculating.
> 
> 
> Fourth, you are worried that you were plan B - that she opted for the safe and stable option, and not someone that she was attracted to primarily (compared with the "bad boys" she had been with).
> 
> 
> Fifth, you don't like the idea of others out there knowing your wife carnally while you had no knowledge and came across as some kind of schmuck (in your opinion).
> 
> 
> Sixth, you are surprised that even if she did sleep with someone before you, it should have been in a relationship and not some seedy ONS and worse, a threesome. You are surprised at the person she was compared to what you thought she was.
> 
> 
> Okay these are six different issues. Of these, issues 1 and 2 are kind of linked. Its easier to first deal with issues 3,4,5 and 6. She chose you and was a faithful wife to you. She showed you nothing but love throughout your marriage and was a great wife and mother. Yes she had a past, but she put it behind her and never let you experience that side of her and was faithful and loving to you.
> 
> So putting your religious views aside (issues 1 and 2), you are in no different a position to the vast majority of us out here whose wives had a sexual background before they married us. We would never get anywhere if we started worrying about their pasts. All we can accept is that they could probably have married someone else but chose us because they found us attractive and loved us. And one can never really know if we were somehow Plan B. Having said this, many men suffer from retrospective jealousy and there are counsellors to help cope with this. As for being compared, you can also get counselling for this insecurity. In short, if these are your main issues, then get counselling because you are in the wrong here (yes, I am a pretty black and white kind of person).
> 
> Now, to deal with issues 1 and 2 is tougher. She lied to you and there could be many reasons for this but it seems like the primary one is that she wanted to be with you and has shown you this every single day of your marriage. Its wrong that she denied you the choice and the life partner you wanted. There is no doubt that she is in the wrong here - and this is what you have to make your decision on. If she has been a great wife and mom, then I would strongly recommend that you look into how to forgive (not forget) and move on. You could have met someone who was a virgin who turned out to be a real nightmare (and we have seen many cases of that on TAM here - wives who never sowed their oats and needed to). So, in my opinion, the lesser of the two evils is her lying about her past just to be with you, compared to marrying a virgin who turned out to be a nightmare.
> 
> Think about it and not just through your religious tinted glasses but as an individual who has actually managed to find a great wife.
> 
> Good luck.


That was my previous post on this thread where I identified 6 different issues. I can add one more based on your last post:

Seventh, you are concerned that she might think you are not a good lover because you didn't sleep with lots of women and get experience. Even though she has never said that to you.

So issues 1 and 2 were to do with her lying about her virginity and were, in my opinion, the only real issues you had to deal with and decide upon with her. The remaining 4 (and now 5) were "in your head" and would need counselling to help you get over yourself.

But then you went on to say:



kevin1986 said:


> well because she is trying to convince me that what she did was just sex, and her sisters are also on my case that why am i worried about her past. She is a good woman at heart and thats why it hurts even more. *The lie i will get over it*, but knowing that she gave it up to 10 plus men for free really bugs me
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You have forgiven her for the lie - so all thats left is to get professional help to get you over your hangups!

And has she confirmed a number now (10 plus) with you or is that also part of your perception?

If you have already forgiven her for the lie, then you just need to get help to get over your insecurity etc.


----------



## Thor

that.girl said:


> I'm having a little trouble with all the statements about how she "continued to lie" throughout the marriage. She definitely failed to come clean, and that was wrong. But you guys make it sounds like they were having weekly discussions about how great her lack of experience was, and i don't see where that happened. We don't know if she kept lying, or just didn't admit her lie.


My situation is somewhat different, somewhat the same, as Kevin's. I know I felt very strongly at first after starting to discover my wife's lies, _every single day_ of our nearly 30 years together was an opportunity for her to have come clean, but she didn't.

Surely she intended to bury it forever, so she didn't think about it daily. But there were numerous times when it would have been very relevant and she would have thought of it. But still she chose to keep the lie going. One time which stands out for me was when I initiated a conversation while we were engaged, telling her stuff I thought was important for her to know. None of it would have ever come out otherwise, but I felt compelled to be fully open and honest. She had nothing to tell me. For decades I believed she had been fully honest with me, but instead she chose a significant lie.

In Kevin's marriage there have certainly been a number of times it would have been relevant and she had the opportunity to set the record straight.

Her current attitude of "just get over it" is quite harmful to Kevin. This is exactly the same as a cheater saying it was just sex and didn't meant anything, so just get over it.


----------



## bfree

that.girl said:


> I'm having a little trouble with all the statements about how she "continued to lie" throughout the marriage. She definitely failed to come clean, and that was wrong. But you guys make it sounds like they were having weekly discussions about how great her lack of experience was, and i don't see where that happened. We don't know if she kept lying, or just didn't admit her lie.


In your opinion what is the difference between repeatedly lying and failing to tell the truth after lying? To me there is no difference other than the passive or active nature of the act. The end result, Kevin was deliberately and continuously deceived, is the same isn't it?


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

phillybeffandswiss said:


> C'mon now, her lie isn't anything like committing adultery. What she did was reprehensible, but she did those acts while they were friends and before they became serious.
> 
> Tell her sisters to shut up and you two work this out with outside help.


But what if the woman did a little more than that? What if it was 20 guys and not 10. What if she was the star of a number of amateur porn films where she did threesomes and gangbangs? In all honesty it doesn't matter whether she had sex with a handful of guys or a enough guys to fill a bus. The OP had clearly defined characteristics he wanted in a wife, and his current wife lied to him about her past. 

Sounds like it's irrelevant though because the OP is likely committed to making this work. I HOPE that his wife doesn't put limits on their sex life. It would be bad enough to know that a fair number of guys were intimate with her due to his value system; however, if on top of it he ever finds out that a number of guys got sex acts that his wife won't allow him to have from her would be a whole new level of pain.


----------



## Graywolf2

kevin1986 said:


> well because she is trying to convince me that what she did was just sex, and her sisters are also on my case that why am i worried about her past.


In order to heal you not only have to admit what you did but also the seriousness of what you did. I think the problem here is that no one is admitting the seriousness. They just don’t get it. 

It’s like the OP is from a culture where it’s a sin to eat pork. Everyone (including his wife) is telling him: “So what if your wife had some beacon. It’s not a big deal. She’s sorry. Get over it. You’re the problem.”

The OP can’t start the healing process.



kevin1986 said:


> She is a good woman at heart and thats why it hurts even more. The lie i will get over it, but knowing that she gave it up to 10 plus men for free really bugs me.


Men tend to place their wife on a pedestal. In a way this is self-serving because they married her and want to feel good about their decision. She must be special. 

They feel like a fool if they are all in on the relationship, paid full price and the OM got the goodies for free. 

If you list the top 10 good things about marriage, men and women have the same list but in a different order. Women tend to put companionship and security at the top of the list while men put sex. 

So from a woman’s point of view the OP is getting what’s important from the marriage and should quit whining. From a man’s point of view the OM are superior because they got the goods for free. It’s like buying the same car as your next door neighbor but they paid half price. They’re smarter and better than you.


----------



## Thor

manfromlamancha said:


> You have forgiven her for the lie - so all thats left is to get professional help to get you over your hangups!
> 
> And has she confirmed a number now (10 plus) with you or is that also part of your perception?
> 
> If you have already forgiven her for the lie, then you just need to get help to get over your insecurity etc.


:iagree: but it isn't that simple.

And, I don't believe he has really forgiven her for the lie. Forgiveness requires a sincere display of remorse, and atonement. It does not appear she has done those things yet.

As to getting over his own hangups, she is the true lynchpin in the whole process. They really need professional guidance from someone good with R from infidelity.

I think it is actually worse that she is saying sex is just sex. If she had said she regretted what she had done, and understood now why she had done those things back then, she would be expressing a current value system consistent with Kevin's. Not that either value system is better/worse, just it is better if they both share the same values now.


----------



## doubletrouble

Kevin, I'm a guy and had lots of lovers in my past. And you know, sometimes it was just sex. It was for fun, a pastime, mutual masturbation if you will. And both of us knew that. 

The thing is, when I truly love someone, sex takes on a whole different meaning for me. I feel it deeply in my body and soul. It's precious, meaningful, and gives light to my heart and body. And I want her to feel that, too. 

So there is a difference; take it from someone who has felt that difference. It's a real difference, not just something to say to make you feel better.


----------



## Locke.Stratos

Thor said:


> You are focused on the wrong part of the issue


So the way that he feels constitutes being "focused on the wrong part of the issue"? You do not share his beliefs and views on premarital sex which is fine, I don't either. Our views aren't the issue here. You mention his views but don't consider them from his perspective or understanding.



Thor said:


> The context of her previous sex life is very different, isn't it?


It is, because up until recently he didn't know her previous sex life existed.



Thor said:


> Your wife has a different view of sex than you do.


Which is probably why he was searching for someone with the same values and view of sex and chastity that he has, which his wife lied about and claimed to have.



Thor said:


> You two simply have _different_ views about it.


She led him to believe otherwise, that she did have the same view of sex as him.



Thor said:


> Part of this is your basic world view on sex. You have a sacred belief about it.





Thor said:


> For her, sex doesn't have that sacred aspect.


Once again she led him to believe that she shared the same sacred belief about it.



Thor said:


> But I think another part of it is you having only ever been with your wife.


Up until recently, she also had him believing that she had only ever been with him as well.


----------



## Graywolf2

Thor said:


> I think it is actually worse that she is saying sex is just sex. If she had said she regretted what she had done, and understood now why she had done those things back then, she would be expressing a current value system consistent with Kevin's. Not that either value system is better/worse, just it is better if they both share the same values now.


:iagree::iagree:

OP's wife and her sisters just don't get it.


----------



## alte Dame

To me, this is a BIG lie. There is a big difference between no sexual experience and 10+ men, including a threesome. There is a big difference between telling a lie to ease the way and telling a lie that enables a huge life decision like marriage for someone else. 

It's the sort of lie that puts the person telling it squarely into liar territory. Kevin now thinks of his wife's character this way. She didn't just tell a lie; she is a liar. In his mind this is who she is.

I think Kevin should not be swayed by the sisters, etc. He needs to impress upon his wife the magnitude of her betrayal. She needs to take this seriously and start to do the heavy lifting of dealing with this, what it means to him and to their marriage. He should insist that she commit to counseling and he needs to take the time to examine his own beliefs and reactions. He thinks he was tricked into marriage and he has to come to terms with all of the feelings surrounding that.


----------



## EleGirl

italianjob said:


> Well, I think the subject probably came up on wedding night, that should be a safe enough guess. And it also might have come up if they ever tried anything sexual beyond missionary...


Really? Do you think that people have discussions of sexual past before having sex every time they do anything except missionary?


----------



## manfromlamancha

I agree that he hasn't forgiven her for the lie and, yes, he does need proper help with that.

And I agree that she is the key to helping him with this and showing true remorse - for the lie. While I don't think she should downplay the enormity of the lie, what she did before him, she should be honest about. If she enjoyed the sex and it was before him, then that is the truth and anything else would be a lie. I am not sure that she needs to show remorse for the sex before him. Just for the lie.

The sex is just sex maybe a reflection on how she felt at the time - until she fell in love with OP. After that she accepted his values but her past could not comply with them - and so she lied (still her only real mistake). And she needs to make that clear to him.

I also think that they probably did not bring this up again and again so the "continuing to lie" does not hold as much water. She probably did live in fear that it would come out one day (and it did). So now is the time they both have to deal with the original lie.

As I also said before that there was no guarantee that he would have a "successful marriage" with someone who did not lie about their virginity and he needs to take this into consideration. So far, he has had a good marriage and a loving and faithful wife who is also a good mother. Not to be undervalued or downplayed.

So OP, once again think carefully about the lie and whether you think you can forgive her for that. You will need appropriate help with that. Then if you can forgive her, get help with your other anxieties, which I believe are all in your head only and give yourselves a chance at a happy future.

Else, divorce and get going.


----------



## italianjob

EleGirl said:


> Really? Do you think that people have discussions of sexual past before having sex every time they do anything except missionary?


No, but "how to do it" if it's supposed to be the first time could come up, and she would be acting like she didn't know every time-


----------



## Thor

Locke.Stratos said:


> So the way that he feels constitutes being "focused on the wrong part of the issue"? You do not share his beliefs and views on premarital sex which is fine, I don't either. Our views aren't the issue here. You mention his views but don't consider them from his perspective or understanding.


I think context is important. Let's imagine (and be thankful it is not the case) his wife had been raped. If that were her only piv before her wedding night with kevin, would he have all this anguish? It would be a very different anguish about the assault etc, but he would not be worried that she gave it up easily or how she might be comparing him to another man. Kevin would not hurt that she has different values than he does.

edited to add: Let's imagine she was a young widow when Kevin met her. She had been a virgin up until her wedding night. Then, tragically, her husband died. She would not have been a virgin when Kevin met her, but she had not violated Kevin's value system either. .end of edit.

So the _fact_ of piv is not the issue, it is the _context_ of the piv. Her current expression of her values is consistent with her behavior before they met, not consistent with what she told him or with her behavior within their relationship. She withheld sex before marriage under the pretense of being a virgin who believed in waiting until marriage. 

The issues really then boil down to a few. What are her real values today, and are those acceptable to Kevin? Is the deception truly forgiven by Kevin? Kevin's ego, and can he get over her having this past?

Ego is a pretty broad word, with too much negative connotation perhaps. I suspect there are a number of thoughts deep inside him which he needs to explore. BTDT, and I can say it takes some work with a therapist. It never goes away completely, his world is forever changed, and sex will never be the same for him.


----------



## Graywolf2

kevin1986 said:


> now she is telling me that she was wrong to lie but her having sex was just for fun





Thor said:


> So the _fact_ of piv is not the issue, it is the _context_ of the piv. *Her current expression of her values is consistent with her behavior before they met, not consistent with what she told him or with her behavior within their relationship. * She withheld sex before marriage under the pretense of being a virgin who believed in waiting until marriage.


:allhail:

OP's wife is back to sport sex doesn't count.


----------



## Locke.Stratos

that.girl said:


> I'm having a little trouble with all the statements about how she "continued to lie" throughout the marriage. She definitely failed to come clean, and that was wrong. But you guys make it sounds like they were having weekly discussions about how great her lack of experience was, and i don't see where that happened. We don't know if she kept lying, or just didn't admit her lie.


Okay so you're saying that through the entirety of their seven year relationship the subject never came up once after it initially discussed. 

Like she said,"Hey, I'm also a virgin and saving myself for marriage" and he said,"Cool" and never again was it ever mentioned. He or she never mentioned it their first time being intimate together or afterwards, there were never times when he said how rare it was to find someone that shared his views on chastity, or that he never proclaimed how lucky he was to have found her or moments when he expressed his fortune in having found someone that had remained a virgin until marriage.

Let's assume then that it never came up again after that initial discussion, then how about this.

A woman and a man start dating. She tells him that she wants to marry, have a large family with a lot of children and he claims to want the same as well. However, unbeknownst to her he is sterile and aware of it but doesn't mention it. After dating and a few years of marriage they decided to try for children but she cannot conceive and only after a series of fertility tests does she discover that he is sterile.

Now he never once lied and said that he wasn't sterile but had her believing that he was. Would this not constitute a continued deception?

Or how about this. You meet and start dating someone. However, unbeknownst to you that person is your first cousin or a sibling that was given away for adoption that you never knew of. They however are aware but continue seeing you and you later discover that you're family.

Yes it's silly and unlikely (the first scenario has happened) but wouldn't their failure to make you aware of a significant truth about them that they had you believe otherwise be considered a continued lie? It's not like there were weekly discussions about being related or the ability to bear children.


----------



## Blondilocks

kevin1986 said:


> Some one asked me how i am?.am definately pissed of with her , now she is telling me that she was wrong to lie but her having sex was just for fun, and our sex life means more to her than what she had in the past, and i dont believe that for some one to be a good lover one needs to sleep around , i know people with countless partners yet complain about how there wives are not satisfied, trust me am not worried about satisfying my wife i know i do. But i feel her regret was the lie but her sleeping around was okay because it had nothing to do with her, *shes pushing me to become something am not.* I can be just like next guy sleep around and still pretend to be happy with her
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Please elaborate on the bolded part. What is she pushing you to become?

It's obvious from this post that the OP has no insecurities regarding his lovemaking skills.

His wife is in minimizing mode and her sisters are backing her up. Why are her sisters even involved in this? 

She's only regretting the lie because she got caught. Has she apologized to you for taking your virginity under false pretenses? Has she apologized to you for stealing your happyeverafter? In short, has she apologized for this sh*tstorm she created & orchestrated and is now minimizing? 

If not, she is nowhere close to understanding the ramifications of her selfishness.


----------



## ConanHub

Thor nailed it! I am too damn lazy but was going to express it in less words.

Kev. The sisters need ejected from this conversation yesterday. Counseling may be in order but the focus needs to be on your different views on sex.

It is disheartening that your W is not getting that lying about her past is one thing but continuing to have a sexual values system that is in direct contrast to yours will continue to damage your marriage and impact your children.

Very big and destructive issue that needs resolved!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## manfromlamancha

We can only go by what the OP says (and it has changed a couple of times so far).

In the beginning he was worried about being compared, the size of his penis and the fact that other men have carnally known his wife.

He also said that she lied to get married to him.

Then he said he is not worried about the lie and can get over it.

He needs to simply decide what he wants and deal with it. If he wants to be sure that he is every bit of a man as the others and that she is happy with his lovemaking, and wants to get over his insecurities, then that is one course of action.

If he feels he was robbed of his "happy ever after" then that is another course of action.

If it is both then he needs to address them separately.

In any case I do not believe that this belongs in the coping with infidelity as there was no infidelity.


----------



## ConanHub

Blondilocks said:


> Please elaborate on the bolded part. What is she pushing you to become?
> 
> It's obvious from this post that the OP has no insecurities regarding his lovemaking skills.
> 
> His wife is in minimizing mode and her sisters are backing her up. Why are her sisters even involved in this?
> 
> She's only regretting the lie because she got caught. Has she apologized to you for taking your virginity under false pretenses? Has she apologized to you for stealing your happyeverafter? In short, has she apologized for this sh*tstorm she created & orchestrated and is now minimizing?
> 
> If not, she is nowhere close to understanding the ramifications of her selfishness.


This too!! Agree strongly!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Locke.Stratos

Thor said:


> I think context is important. Let's imagine (and be thankful it is not the case) his wife had been raped. If that were her only piv before her wedding night with kevin, would he have all this anguish? It would be a very different anguish about the assault etc, but he would not be worried that she gave it up easily or how she might be comparing him to another man. Kevin would not hurt that she has different values than he does.
> 
> So the _fact_ of piv is not the issue, it is the _context_ of the piv. Her current expression of her values is consistent with her behavior before they met, not consistent with what she told him or with her behavior within their relationship. She withheld sex before marriage under the pretense of being a virgin who believed in waiting until marriage.
> 
> The issues really then boil down to a few. What are her real values today, and are those acceptable to Kevin? Is the deception truly forgiven by Kevin? Kevin's ego, and can he get over her having this past?
> 
> Ego is a pretty broad word, with too much negative connotation perhaps. I suspect there are a number of thoughts deep inside him which he needs to explore. BTDT, and I can say it takes some work with a therapist. It never goes away completely, his world is forever changed, and sex will never be the same for him.


The issue is communication and honesty, not the context or circumstances under which she had sex. She lied about being a virgin and sharing his values.

He was open and honest about who he was, his values and his dating history. She wasn't. She told him that she was a virgin and also saving herself for marriage. She could've been honest and told him the truth and he would've had the information he needed to decide whether or not this is a person with whom he'd want to pursue a serious relationship.

Kevin1986 has mentioned that he was looking for more than her just being a virgin. That he was interested in her heart and that she was different from other women. Her claiming to be a virgin set her apart from other women to him and the fact that she shared his beliefs bonded them.

If she was honest with him early on then he would've been aware of her sexual history and reconciled any thoughts or issues he might have had with it then instead of dealing with the fact that his wife had deceived him and the issues he's having with all the things that this revelation involes (like the anger, hurt, the number of men involved, sexual acts performed, what else she could've lied about, their not being the only people they've ever been with, his perception of his wife now or others who knew).


----------



## larry.gray

kevin1986 said:


> well because she is trying to convince me that what she did was just sex, and her sisters are also on my case that why am i worried about her past. She is a good woman at heart and thats why it hurts even more. The lie i will get over it, but knowing that she gave it up to 10 plus men for free really bugs me


Were her sisters in on the deception too? If so, you can tell them that they way they can help the most is being contrite about being dishonest instead of justifying their dishonesty.


----------



## Thor

Locke.Stratos said:


> The issue is communication and honesty, not the context or circumstances under which she had sex. She lied about being a virgin and sharing his values.
> 
> He was open and honest about who he was, his values and his dating history. She wasn't. She told him that she was a virgin and also saving herself for marriage. She could've been honest and told him the truth and he would've had the information he needed to decide whether or not this is a person with whom he'd want to pursue a serious relationship.
> 
> Kevin1986 has mentioned that he was looking for more than her just being a virgin. That he was interested in her heart and that she was different from other women. Her claiming to be a virgin set her apart from other women to him and the fact that she shared his beliefs bonded them.
> 
> If she was honest with him early on then he would've been aware of her sexual history and reconciled any thoughts or issues he might have had with it then instead of dealing with the fact that his wife had deceived him and the issues he's having with all the things that this revelation involes (like the anger, hurt, the number of men involved, sexual acts performed, what else she could've lied about, their not being the only people they've ever been with, his perception of his wife now or others who knew).


I agree with all of this, and believe it is still a big problem for Kevin even though he says he has forgiven her for the lie. He most recently says the problem is that 10+ other men have known her. To the last part is what I referred to when saying the context of her previous sex is what is important about that sex. To me, the context seems to be negative in comparison to Kevin's values.

There are a lot of issues going on inside Kevin, some of which he probably is too upset to dig into yet.


----------



## Nucking Futs

I suspect that the aspect that is most important changes as he churns through it all.


----------



## vellocet

kevin1986 said:


> well because she is trying to convince me that what she did was just sex, and her sisters are also on my case that why am i worried about her past. She is a good woman at heart and thats why it hurts even more. The lie i will get over it, but knowing that she gave it up to 10 plus men for free really bugs me
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


To me, although I'm different, it isn't even a matter of the "10 plus men" she gave it up to that is the problem. 

The problem is that it was important to you, you asked, she lied, therefore altering your future.

Let me ask you this, if she had told you she wasn't a virgin and came clean about her experiences, would have have broken up with her? If so, then she robbed you of choice.

If you wouldn't have, then its a matter of trying to come to terms with it. Problem is, that works for her, but you get to live with knowing that you were duped and the other feelings you have about it.


----------



## vellocet

that.girl said:


> "continued to lie"





> We don't know if she kept lying, or just didn't admit her lie.


Same thing. If she lied to get what she wanted, and never came clean, IMO, its the same thing as continuing the lie.

The man had to hear it from her friends.


----------



## Graywolf2

larry.gray said:


> Were her sisters in on the deception too? If so, you can tell them that they way they can help the most is being contrite about being dishonest instead of justifying their dishonesty.


Two of OP’s values:
1.	No premarital sex
2.	No divorce

If his wife and her sisters think that #1 is foolish then what do they think about #2?


----------



## vellocet

kev, not sure if you ever answered this, but I think it needs a response.

What is it that you want to do?


----------



## that.girl

vellocet said:


> Same thing. If she lied to get what she wanted, and never came clean, IMO, its the same thing as continuing the lie.
> 
> The man had to hear it from her friends.


I'm not at all saying its okay. My point is that we've gone from "she lied about being a virgin" to "she's been lying to you for your whole marriage, she's probably lying about being faithful, and who fathered the kids, you deserve a thorough accounting of every man who's ever touched her." 

OP has stated that she was always a good and caring wife. TAM sometimes has a way of losing perspective, especially when the OP isn't very involved in their thread. There's a lot of speculating happening in here.


----------



## vellocet

that.girl said:


> OP has stated that she was always a good and caring wife. TAM sometimes has a way of losing perspective, especially when the OP isn't very involved in their thread. There's a lot of speculating happening in here.


Then I guess he is just going to have to get over it and live with not getting what he wanted in a wife.


----------



## Retribution

vellocet has a very good point here, Kevin. You were robbed of your choice before. You have a new choice now.

This is now something that will redefine your life, and I'm not exaggerating. You will likely have haunting memories of this for a very long time if not for the rest of your life. These memories will change your mood from one extreme to the other, and it's going to suck balls big time. Time can reduce this, but it won't fix it on its own. You need to know this because I feel it is something that is often not told to spouses in the hopes that they'll happily go along with reconciliation without a full knowledge of what they're in for.

Despite the opinion of some here, people who want you to redefine your belief system, you and what you think matter. It doesn't matter what the rest of us think, that's also why I'm going to refrain for now from telling you what I'd be tempted to do were I in your shoes.

Now the question is, can you live with this, or is it a deal breaker? Things to consider if you want to live with this: Can you deal with the issues that are now raised (lies, myriad sex partners, differing views on sex, etc.)? If you can deal with these issues, what kind of plan do you have to do such (counseling, reading, praying, meditation, changing your belief system even just a bit, etc.)? If you decide you can't deal with this, then that's okay. I know somebody who called it "non-negotiable noes". That is a behavior that you find is so offensive to you that you won't allow it. It's a deal-breaker. The other person is free to do that behavior, but you aren't going to sit around and keep them next to you.

That brings up forgiveness. Christian or not we should forgive, and using somebody's religion to manipulate them into doing such is really counterproductive. Also, there's a difference between forgiveness and reconciliation. Should I forgive the guy who banged my wife silly? Yes. Should I make friends with him and have him over for dinner? Most likely no. The same principle applies to your wife here. You should let go of the pain and need for justice with your wife, regardless her behavior. That doesn't mean you need to stay with her either. The choice is up to you, and what you feel you can deal with.

One more thing. Define a lie as, "Any communication, or lack thereof, with the intent to deceive." That way all these semantics over whether your wife lied or not can be tossed like the wastes of time that they are.


----------



## that.girl

If he says he won't leave, is there really another choice? 

I guess he could NOT get over it, and then she'll probably leave.


----------



## vellocet

that.girl said:


> I guess he could NOT get over it, and then she'll probably leave.


Problem solved then.


----------



## that.girl

Getting over it will probably involve a lot of honest discussion, and maybe some counseling. But if he just holds on to this and doesn't make peace with it, she'll get tired of him holding it over her head. She will resent it, and eventually walk. 

If he doesn't deal with this, he'll get his divorce whether he likes it or not.


----------



## Marduk

kevin1986 said:


> well because she is trying to convince me that what she did was just sex, and her sisters are also on my case that why am i worried about her past. She is a good woman at heart and thats why it hurts even more. The lie i will get over it, but knowing that she gave it up to 10 plus men for free really bugs me
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think you have that backwards. 

I think you should be far more worried about your wife lying to you to get you to marry her than her past before you put a ring on her finger.


----------



## Yeswecan

kevin1986 said:


> I had a long talk with wife today, i wanted to know why she lied to me.......what she said was she didnt want want me to think less of her. but i cant get passed the one night stands and the 3 somes, why would a woman with self respect put her self in such situations, she kept saying her ex boyfriend wasnt ready for marriage and that i treated her differently but that doesnt solve my issues, if she didnt regret her decisions and if she enjoyed her sex romps why did she lie to me about it? now i understand why she was so uncomfertable when she got the invite to go to her home town, now am suppose to brush it off and move on, it just doesnt make sense being made a fool of.
> 
> fact is she should have given me that choice back then, *now i have no choice being a christian i dont believe in divorce and i cant let my child grow up in two different homes its not fair on her shes my baby.*i feel like i was HER safe choice a provider nothing more, those guys got everything from her with out even trying, now i have to live with her actions.


Ultimately yes, everything should have been put on the table while you two were dating and considering marriage. You proclaim your Christianity. God Bless. I too follow to the best of my ability the teachings from the Bible. Understanding, accepting and forgiving are what you have been taught for a very long time. Granted, it is very hard sometimes. At this juncture I think it is best to look at the woman/wife she has been since you said your vows. She can not fix her poor choice in keeping this very important information from you. She can and apparently has been nothing but stellar in all other aspects of your marriage(conjecture here but I get the feeling she has been). Perhaps focusing on this instead of what was is better?


----------



## Yeswecan

that.girl said:


> Getting over it will probably involve a lot of honest discussion, and maybe some counseling. But if he just holds on to this and doesn't make peace with it, she'll get tired of him holding it over her head. She will resent it, and eventually walk.
> 
> If he doesn't deal with this, he'll get his divorce whether he likes it or not.


Kevin, what that.girl has written here is dead on. This can not be an ax to grind indefinitely.


----------



## Locke.Stratos

that.girl said:


> I'm not at all saying its okay. My point is that we've gone from "she lied about being a virgin" to "she's been lying to you for your whole marriage, she's probably lying about being faithful, and who fathered the kids, you deserve a thorough accounting of every man who's ever touched her."
> 
> OP has stated that she was always a good and caring wife. TAM sometimes has a way of losing perspective, especially when the OP isn't very involved in their thread. There's a lot of speculating happening in here.


I'm not of the opinion that she has been lying about being faithful or who fathered the children but it isn't that far fetched.

This is the Coping With Infidelity section so obviously you will come across comments to that effect.

It has happened a lot that a spouse will swear on all that is held dear to them that their husband or wife is a "good" and "caring" person and that "he or she would never be unfaithful" right up until the moment that they discover or are presented with proof of infidelity by their spouse.

There are stories here whereby a member posts on another section on TaM and leaves enraged at comments insinuating that their spouse might be unafithful only to have that poster return days to months later confirming incidences of infidelity.

Many adulterers are at their core liars who are adept at deception and manipulation. Kevin1986's wife has proven herself extremely capable of lying and being deceptive, so though it probably isn't the case in this situation it is certainly not impossible.


----------



## Blondilocks

All speculation aside, one thing the OP's wife has shown is that she wasn't worried about him thinking less of her for being a liar. She let this run its full course until she was outed. Then the minimizing began.

To my mind, the statement "I didn't want you to think less of me" translates to "I didn't think enough of you to be honest and forthright". She did what she did to get what she wanted. Selfish and entitled.


----------



## ConanHub

that.girl said:


> Getting over it will probably involve a lot of honest discussion, and maybe some counseling. But if he just holds on to this and doesn't make peace with it, she'll get tired of him holding it over her head. She will resent it, and eventually walk.
> 
> If he doesn't deal with this, he'll get his divorce whether he likes it or not.


She needs to do some dealing as well. She needs to make this up some how. She also needs to change her views on sex. Can't raise kids with polar opposites on that subject and it isn't fun living with someone so different in that department anyway.

She is not dealing with her shyt. She is getting defensive and bringing her pro lying manipulator sisters in as well.

OP. Don't take divorce off the table. She needs to know your serious about this and her moronic behavior has consequences.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blondilocks

"Can't raise kids with polar opposites on that subject"

Yep, just one more area where her values don't and won't align with his. I'm sure she never considered all the areas of her life and his life that would be affected with the telling of that one whopper and the continued deception.


----------



## doubletrouble

that.girl said:


> I'm not at all saying its okay. My point is that we've gone from "she lied about being a virgin" to "she's been lying to you for your whole marriage, she's probably lying about being faithful, and who fathered the kids, you deserve a thorough accounting of every man who's ever touched her."
> 
> OP has stated that she was always a good and caring wife. *TAM sometimes has a way of losing perspective, especially when the OP isn't very involved in their thread. * There's a lot of speculating happening in here.


Q effin T!


----------



## altawa

kevin1986 said:


> well because she is trying to convince me that what she did was just sex, and her sisters are also on my case that why am i worried about her past. She is a good woman at heart and thats why it hurts even more. The lie i will get over it, but knowing that she gave it up to 10 plus men for free really bugs me
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You need to tell her sisters to stay the hell out of it, and put your foot down about it. They obviously knew about this all along and never told you, so they are complicit in this too. They are not helping, they want you to just 'get over it'.


----------



## MattMatt

Does she love you? Yes or no? could you estimate on a scale of 1 to 10 how much she loves you?

Had you known of her past life, would you have married her? Yes, or no?

If the answer to the question in the second paragraph is no, well, I have absolutely *no* idea why she might have either lied to you or given you a false impression of her sex life before she met you!


----------



## Dyokemm

"I suspect that the aspect that is most important changes as he churns through it all."

I agree...he is still in shock, anger, and pain cause he just found out. Its normal to be a little bit all over the place as your try to make sense of what just happened to the reality you thought you had.

His W and sisters are minimizing cause to them it is old news.


----------



## larry.gray

Thor said:


> I agree with all of this, and believe it is still a big problem for Kevin even though he says he has forgiven her for the lie. He most recently says the problem is that 10+ other men have known her. To the last part is what I referred to when saying the context of her previous sex is what is important about that sex. To me, the context seems to be negative in comparison to Kevin's values.


It's premature to forgive someone when they don't want forgiveness themselves. Kevin's comment about the sisters lead me to believe that her and her sisters are more interested in changing Kevin's outlook on premarital sex so the lie "isn't a big deal" instead of being contrite and actually considering the lie a big deal.

I think as long as Kevin's wife thinks this is no big thing, Kevin is going to have a really hard time getting past it.


----------



## larry.gray

MattMatt said:


> If the answer to the question in the second paragraph is no, well, I have absolutely *no* idea why she might have either lied to you or given you a false impression of her sex life before she met you!


I think pretty much everyone in this thread understands the motivation behind the lie. The different point of view surrounds how unethical that lie is. Based on your rolling eyes, you don't seem to think the lie is a big deal. I presume that you don't share the values that Kevin has. Rather than consider his point of view valid, you're ridiculing it instead. 

Ask yourself if you think it's helpful? Do you think mocking him will help? Usually you're more considerate than that.

Look at the lie this way MattMatt: Your wife is more ethical than the OP's. At least she doesn't lie to you, she told you what she was going to do. Many people say that the lies are the worst part of infidelity. Let's go further and minimize here - what Kevin is going through is worse than what you did. How does if feel if I say that?


----------



## Dogbert

Kevin has not said much about his wife's religious status. I wonder if Kevin has sought the advise of a faith based counselor. Maybe there might be some solution to his situation based on scripture.


----------



## kevin1986

What am saying is if i also sleep around will that make it better? since my wife thinks sex was just sex.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Retribution

kevin1986 said:


> What am saying is if i also sleep around will that make it better? since my wife thinks sex was just sex.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No. It won't. You've then also compromised your own values. Yes, you'll get a form of revenge, but that's a whole different can of worms. I'm not for somebody compromising their values. That just leads to more emptiness.


----------



## italianjob

kevin1986 said:


> What am saying is if i also sleep around will that make it better? since my wife thinks sex was just sex.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Wait... You can't divorce because you're a Christian, but sleeping around and cheating is allright?


----------



## vellocet

kevin1986 said:


> What am saying is if i also sleep around will that make it better? since my wife thinks sex was just sex.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No, it wouldn't make things better. You'd become a POS cheater.

But on the subject of her thinking "sex is just sex". I wonder what she'd say if you brought this up to her?


----------



## Dogbert

italianjob said:


> Wait... You can't divorce because you're a Christian, but sleeping around and cheating is allright?


Yeah what's up with that? OP made a big stink about his religious convictions to not have pre marital sex and now considers something so against them?


----------



## Yeswecan

kevin1986 said:


> What am saying is if i also sleep around will that make it better? since my wife thinks sex was just sex.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No. It will do nothing but exacerbate the issue at hand. If there is a fire and you need to put it out do you use gas? 

Add this to the equation will create more problems.


----------



## Retribution

Here's what I think about Kevin's Christianity vs. what he's dealing with emotionally. Any trauma can cause somebody to question every aspect of their life. This in turn causes confusion. Being Christian isn't synonymous with perfection, same as it is with any religion or lack thereof. Kevin is hurt, confused (clearly), and looking for help. Let's give the guy a break and hope we can steer him towards something positive.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Anger, sadness, hysterical bonding etc etc etc. Quit acing like religion suddenly makes his questions weird. Many a betrayed poster has asked this very question, including the ones who have a strong religious background.

No she didn't cheat, but you were betrayed. You are dealing with the age old "virgin regret" problem right now. All the sex will do is make you a cheater. Go get help from a counselor or your religious leaders.


----------



## KingwoodKev

Retribution said:


> Here's what I think about Kevin's Christianity vs. what he's dealing with emotionally. Any trauma can cause somebody to question every aspect of their life. This in turn causes confusion. Being Christian isn't synonymous with perfection, same as it is with any religion or lack thereof. Kevin is hurt, confused (clearly), and looking for help. Let's give the guy a break and hope we can steer him towards something positive.


I agree. I posted somewhere above that maybe she had a life changing epiphany about her bad girl ways and truly changed. Some people do. She found the man of her dreams and was scared he might reject her if he knew her past so she unwisely lied to him. My questions to him would be is she the wife you wanted? Right now today, disregarding her past, is she the girl of your dreams? If so then let it slide my man. It wasn't cheating it was just a lie and we all lie. The only caveat is I would call that strike one then let it go. I only allow two strikes so she'd be warned of that. Even one tiny relapse into her bad girl past, like flirty chats with some scuzzy dude she did a threesome with, and it's over. Give everyone a second chance, no one a third.

I hope he focuses on the positive messages here. I really do.


----------



## Nucking Futs

KingwoodKev said:


> I agree. I posted somewhere above that *maybe she had a life changing epiphany about her bad girl ways* and truly changed. Some people do. She found the man of her dreams and was scared he might reject her if he knew her past so she unwisely lied to him. My questions to him would be is she the wife you wanted? Right now today, disregarding her past, is she the girl of your dreams? If so then let it slide my man. It wasn't cheating it was just a lie and we all lie. The only caveat is I would call that strike one then let it go. I only allow two strikes so she'd be warned of that. Even one tiny relapse into her bad girl past, like flirty chats with some scuzzy dude she did a threesome with, and it's over. Give everyone a second chance, no one a third.
> 
> I hope he focuses on the positive messages here. I really do.


Judging by the fact that she's telling him to get over it because it was just sex, I don't thing she had an epiphany. Based on her attitude now I'm not sure she would ever get such an epiphany even if she were served with divorce papers.


----------



## Blondilocks

Kevin is a man of so few words it's hard to get a handle on just how his marriage is faring since the cat's out of the bag.

Kevin, are you having actual conversations with your wife? Screaming fights & flinging insults?
Suffering in silence?

More info will get advise suitable for your current state of marriage.


----------



## KingwoodKev

Nucking Futs said:


> Judging by the fact that she's telling him to get over it because it was just sex, I don't thing she had an epiphany. Based on her attitude now I'm not sure she would ever get such an epiphany even if she were served with divorce papers.


You might have a point there.


----------



## kevin1986

Am not really the type of guy who talks much even when am pissed, my actions are enough to know that am not okay inside, to blow off steam iv been working out more than usual, laying out my anger on a punching bag and weights. I have never even considered cheating till now, i told her sisters to stay out of our business, funny thing is even my close friends are telling me to put it behind me, i would say my wife is a good woman but she betrayed me, she fooled me and even though she is apologising i feel shes just trying save her skin. I read most women remember there first time and that guy , i asked her about it and she says its me she loves not her first, i cant figure this mess out, now she is worried just because i spent last night at a friends that i might cheat on her. Well i told her i want to experience for my self what she was doing in college.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Nucking Futs

kevin1986 said:


> Am not really the type of guy who talks much even when am pissed, my actions are enough to know that am not okay inside, to blow off steam iv been working out more than usual, laying out my anger on a punching bag and weights. I have never even considered cheating till now, i told her sisters to stay out of our business, funny thing is even my close friends are telling me to put it behind me, i would say my wife is a good woman but she betrayed me, she fooled me and even though she is apologising i feel shes just trying save her skin. I read most women remember there first time and that guy , i asked her about it and she says its me she loves not her first, i cant figure this mess out, *now she is worried just because i spent last night at a friends that i might cheat on her.* Well i told her i want to experience for my self what she was doing in college.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She said earlier that it was just sex. Is it just sex if you do it, or only when she does it?


----------



## Dogbert

kevin1986 said:


> Am not really the type of guy who talks much even when am pissed, my actions are enough to know that am not okay inside, to blow off steam iv been working out more than usual, laying out my anger on a punching bag and weights. *I have never even considered cheating till now*, i told her sisters to stay out of our business, funny thing is even my close friends are telling me to put it behind me, i would say my wife is a good woman but she betrayed me, she fooled me and even though she is apologising i feel shes just trying save her skin. I read most women remember there first time and that guy , i asked her about it and she says its me she loves not her first, i cant figure this mess out, now she is worried just because i spent last night at a friends that i might cheat on her. Well i told her i want to experience for my self what she was doing in college.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


How can you be so adamant about your religious beliefs and yet be so willing to contemplate betraying them?


----------



## kevin1986

I mean why shouldnt i experiment also? Maybe she thought me being a virgin was because i couldnt sleep around, well i can show her just how easy it is then see if she thinks its just sex. I want to know what the fuss is all about, i feel cheated deeply what this woman did was have her fun then entrap me into thinking shes the woman of my dreams.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## manfromlamancha

It's not just sex if you do it after you are married. It's cheating!


----------



## jld

kevin1986 said:


> I mean why shouldnt i experiment also? Maybe she thought me being a virgin was because i couldnt sleep around, well i can show her just how easy it is then see if she thinks its just sex. I want to know what the fuss is all about, i feel cheated deeply what this woman did was have her fun then entrap me into thinking shes the woman of my dreams.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't think you will feel good about yourself if you do this. At the end of the day, you will value your own self-respect the most.


----------



## kevin1986

Dogbert said:


> How can you be so adamant about your religious beliefs and yet be so willing to contemplate betraying them?


Well because its like what am getting from people is her beliefs where okay, so if i sleep around them confess a few years down the line its okay. Its like a what people are calling now mistakes
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## altawa

Dogbert said:


> How can you be so adamant about your religious beliefs and yet be so willing to contemplate betraying them?


Because he has had something very foundational to his marriage kicked out from under him, while at the same time realizing that everybody else knew the whole time that he was being played for a fool. That 1-2 punch is enough to throw anybody for a loop, so I dont fault him for having these thoughts right now.

As long as he doesn't go through with them, he is fine. Letting her squirm some might actually flesh out some of her apparent double standard on the subject.

ETA: This is in no way me saying he should either stay with or leave her. That is his decision to make. I know what I would do though.


----------



## kevin1986

But she also slept around, she was not pure at all, i dont even know what number i am. I might be number 30, who doesnt like to be number one people.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## kevin1986

To make matters worse her home town is where my own parents shifted to, so how can i not go there on holidays, i look after my parents am there only son so i gotta watch out for them, so no doubt i have to go there
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

kevin1986 said:


> But she also slept around, she was not pure at all, i dont even know what number i am. I might be number 30, who doesnt like to be number one people.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Be number one. Do it by keeping your personal integrity intact.


----------



## ConanHub

kevin1986 said:


> What am saying is if i also sleep around will that make it better? since my wife thinks sex was just sex.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I would ask her just that. See how she responds to the idea of a man she has exclusively had being enjoyed by other women.
If it is just sex to her, how would she like you enjoying being inside another woman?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## tacoma

kevin1986 said:


> Well because its like what am getting from people is her beliefs where okay, so if i sleep around them confess a few years down the line its okay. Its like a what people are calling now mistakes
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The difference is that you're married.

Sex with another woman now is infidelity, your wife isn't guilty of this.

What your wife did pales in comparison with what you're suggesting.

What your wife did was wrong but truthfully in my mind her only mistake was pursuing you and your unhealthy requirement of virginity because she had to lie about it.

Your situation is yet more evidence that sex before marriage is far more healthy than saving yourself.

If she hadn't lied and you rejected her because of her lack of virginity regardless of any and all other redeeming qualities she held then you IMO are just a shallow insecure person who has no idea what is valuable and what is meaningless.

You have put far too much importance on that which means nothing while failing to recognize the meaningful.

She did lie and she was wrong to do so but you are the person guilty of putting yourself where you are now.

If you were to divorce her over this (and I believe you have every right to do so) you would be doing her a favor in the long run.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

If I may, it sounds more and more like you regret remaining a virgin and not experiencing life yourself. You'll need to square that with your values.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

tacoma said:


> The difference is that you're married.
> 
> Sex with another woman now is infidelity, your wife isn't guilty of this.
> 
> What your wife did pales in comparison with what you're suggesting.
> 
> What your wife did was wrong but truthfully in my mind her only mistake was pursuing you and your unhealthy requirement of virginity because she had to lie about it.
> 
> Your situation is yet more evidence that sex before marriage is far more healthy than saving yourself.
> 
> If she hadn't lied and you rejected her because of her lack of virginity regardless of any and all other redeeming qualities she held then you IMO are just a shallow insecure person who has no idea what is valuable and what is meaningless.
> 
> You have put far too much importance on that which means nothing while failing to recognize the meaningful.
> 
> She did lie and she was wrong to do so but you are the person guilty of putting yourself where you are now.
> 
> If you were to divorce her over this (and I believe you have every right to do so) you would be doing her a favor in the long run.


I acknowledge much about your post. However, he wanted certain criteria to have been met by his wife prior to agreeing to marry her. She misrepresented herself, and like normally happens in these cases the truth came out. On top of that, she has a fundamental difference in opinion as it pertains to sex than he does. That's significant.


----------



## tacoma

Plan 9 from OS said:


> I acknowledge much about your post. However, he wanted certain criteria to have been met by his wife prior to agreeing to marry her. She misrepresented herself, and like normally happens in these cases the truth came out. On top of that, she has a fundamental difference in opinion as it pertains to sex than he does. That's significant.


Indeed it is to him and that is why I've told him I believe he has every right to divorce her.

But if she is a good wife and has spent the past 5 years showing him that I also believe he would be a fool to do so.


----------



## Locke.Stratos

kevin1986 said:


> Am not really the type of guy who talks much even when am pissed, my actions are enough to know that am not okay inside, to blow off steam iv been working out more than usual, laying out my anger on a punching bag and weights. I have never even considered cheating till now, i told her sisters to stay out of our business, funny thing is even my close friends are telling me to put it behind me, i would say my wife is a good woman but she betrayed me, she fooled me and even though she is apologising i feel shes just trying save her skin. I read most women remember there first time and that guy , i asked her about it and she says its me she loves not her first, i cant figure this mess out, now she is worried just because i spent last night at a friends that i might cheat on her. Well i told her i want to experience for my self what she was doing in college.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If you're planning on sleeping with women other than your wife than at least inform her. I woudn't recommend it because I think it will probably make you feel worse in time. If it has her thinking that you might follow through with it then it could strengthen your perspective in her that she realizes and drops the 'it's just sex' attitude.

Your friends won't understand and it's liitle surpise that they're saying to put it behind you. Most people can't relate to something they've never experienced and would rather not deal with someone else's problems. Take time before you decide on what to do, you're still emotionally raw.


----------



## Nucking Futs

tacoma said:


> The difference is that you're married.
> 
> Sex with another woman now is infidelity, your wife isn't guilty of this.
> 
> What your wife did pales in comparison with what you're suggesting.
> 
> *What your wife did was wrong but truthfully in my mind her only mistake was pursuing you and your unhealthy requirement of virginity because she had to lie about it.
> 
> Your situation is yet more evidence that sex before marriage is far more healthy than saving yourself.
> 
> If she hadn't lied and you rejected her because of her lack of virginity regardless of any and all other redeeming qualities she held then you IMO are just a shallow insecure person who has no idea what is valuable and what is meaningless.*
> 
> You have put far too much importance on that which means nothing while failing to recognize the meaningful.
> 
> She did lie and she was wrong to do so but you are the person guilty of putting yourself where you are now.
> 
> If you were to divorce her over this (and I believe you have every right to do so) you would be doing her a favor in the long run.


Who the **** do you think you are to take his deeply held beliefs and **** on them? _You_ do not get to decide what is important for _him_. You do not get to decide that what he believes is not important simply because you disagree with him. 

The arrogance of your post is mind blowing.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

Kevin, I'm curious if your wife gives you everything you want from an intimacy standpoint. Reason I ask is because it's a common occurrence to see a promiscuous woman go after the "bad boys" and have all sorts of dirty sex, then find a "good boy" who they can settle down with and decide to have a more respectable sex life with no frills.

Another consideration is that if she had all those experiences, she may have inhibited your needs of sexual exploration because she's done these things before and not want to relive them with you. Not saying this happened, but you may have been short changed on that front.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Tubbalard said:


> Didn't want to quote this crap.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not helpful dude.

Kevin, I can understand how upset you are. I recommend you talk to your wife and explain your reasoning behind your desire to sleep with other women. *DO NOT DO IT*, talk about it. Like many commenting on this thread, your wife doesn't understand where you're coming from. She's finding it impossible to put herself in your shoes. If you can sit down with her and calmly discuss these feelings you're having you may be able to get through to her. If not you may need to take some action but _if you cheat in your marriage you become something to be despised._ She'll despise you, your friends and family will despise you, the members of your church will despise you and most importantly, you'll despise yourself. If you must sleep with other women you either have to get your wifes permission or divorce.


----------



## Decorum

Nucking Futs said:


> I suspect that the aspect that is most important changes as he churns through it all.


This! :iagree:

Keven,
You are handling this very well, facing your feelings/thoughts and the implications of her actions.

You are going through a process, something similar to this. It’s not linear, you go in and out; bounce around, and combine steps. 
1.	SHOCK & DENIAL
2. PAIN & GUILT 
3.	ANGER & BARGAINING 
4.	DEPRESSION", REFLECTION, LONELINESS 
5. THE UPWARD TURN 
6. RECONSTRUCTION & WORKING THROUGH
7. ACCEPTANCE & HOPE

My question to you is “At what point in this process do you think you should make life changing decisions”? Such as , divorce, revenge affair, moving out, cutting people out of your life, moving etc?

It is likely you will always have to reprocess this from time to time. You will grow in your understanding of human nature, of women and their development and modes of thinking and much more.
This is now your life no matter what you decide.

When you get to a place of acceptance and understanding you can make good decisions from a position of strength, don’t be foolish and make them out of weakness.

Acceptance does not mean a certain outcome, it means you have the understanding you need to move on in the healthiest way possible. 

I am in no position to tell you what that is.


Look at these quotes...


kevin1986 said:


> What am saying is if i also sleep around will that make it better? since my wife thinks sex was just sex.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





kevin1986 said:


> well because she is trying to convince me that what she did was just sex, and her sisters are also on my case that why am i worried about her past. She is a good woman at heart and thats why it hurts even more. The lie i will get over it, but knowing that she gave it up to 10 plus men for free really bugs me
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





kevin1986 said:


> I mean why shouldnt i experiment also? Maybe she thought me being a virgin was because i couldnt sleep around, well i can show her just how easy it is then see if she thinks its just sex. I want to know what the fuss is all about, i feel cheated deeply what this woman did was have her fun then entrap me into thinking shes the woman of my dreams.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





kevin1986 said:


> Am not really the type of guy who talks much even when am pissed, my actions are enough to know that am not okay inside, to blow off steam iv been working out more than usual, laying out my anger on a punching bag and weights. I have never even considered cheating till now, i told her sisters to stay out of our business, funny thing is even my close friends are telling me to put it behind me, i would say my wife is a good woman but she betrayed me, she fooled me and even though she is apologising i feel shes just trying save her skin. I read most women remember there first time and that guy , i asked her about it and she says its me she loves not her first, i cant figure this mess out, now she is worried just because i spent last night at a friends that i might cheat on her. Well i told her i want to experience for my self what she was doing in college.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





kevin1986 said:


> Well because its like what am getting from people is her beliefs where okay, so if i sleep around them confess a few years down the line its okay. Its like a what people are calling now mistakes
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





kevin1986 said:


> But she also slept around, she was not pure at all, i dont even know what number i am. I might be number 30, who doesnt like to be number one people.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





kevin1986 said:


> To make matters worse her home town is where my own parents shifted to, so how can i not go there on holidays, i look after my parents am there only son so i gotta watch out for them, so no doubt i have to go there
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Can you see some of these steps in these quotes? You are asking all the right questions, it’s completely normal for what you are going through, and you have to work through these. 

You are a solid guy I can tell that by how you are handling this, it sucks, absolutely!!! 


The process is the solution, let it work, keep pushing through with honesty and you will make the best call.

Here is a website about The Stages of Grief. 7 STAGES OF GRIEF (This is modified from the original Kübler-Ross model, but use what helps you)

I really wish you will, take care!
.
.
.
.


----------



## tacoma

Nucking Futs said:


> Who the **** do you think you are to take his deeply held beliefs and **** on them? _You_ do not get to decide what is important for _him_. You do not get to decide that what he believes is not important simply because you disagree with him.



It's his beliefs that put him here.

What we believe colors our lives.

When those beliefs lead us to value that which is meaningless to the detriment of what is meaningful they become a liability not a benefit to our well being.
The OPs current position is objective evidence of that.



> The arrogance of your post is mind blowing.


You thought that was mind blowing?
Stick around, my arrogance knows no bounds.


----------



## loveisforever

This is a betrayal of your trust in her. How can you trust her again if she acted like this without real remorse?

You need her to do :
1) A full disclosure of her past sex history
2) A full disclosure of other significant issuers that she may hide from you
3) True remorse 
4) Agree with divorce on your terms if cheated again

You need to be strong enough to be ready to dump her if she want to outwit you.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

I don't think he should cheat, but if she has used the "its just sex line" with him, he might ask her why she would be so upset with him if he did sleep with a few other women. (so he would be able to compare her with other women, just as she is able to compare him to other men).

a spouse that has been able to hide their past may be skilled enough to hide their present as well. i.e. skilled enough to live a double-life. I think its a legitmate reason to re-evaluate how much one trrusts their spouse, or should trust them. and if their response is something like "it was just sex" - then maybe adultery is just sex, for them.


----------



## Retribution

tacoma said:


> Your situation is yet more evidence that sex before marriage is far more healthy than saving yourself.


It's funny you wrote this, because it can actually be argued that virtue before marriage has its merits as well, from this experience. Simply stating "everybody does it" is a weak argument, because there's no real empirical evidence to back it up.


----------



## ConanHub

Not advocating cheating BTW. Just want her to be forced to experience her emotions over the idea of her husband having sex with other women. Her current attitude is helping to destroy her marriage. Stupid.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Nucking Futs

tacoma said:


> It's his beliefs that put him here.
> 
> What we believe colors our lives.
> 
> *When those beliefs lead us to value that which is meaningless to the detriment of what is meaningful they become a liability not a benefit to our well being.*
> The OPs current position is objective evidence of that.
> 
> 
> 
> You thought that was mind blowing?
> Stick around, my arrogance knows no bounds.


The arrogance comes in from you deciding for him that what he values is meaningless. It's meaningless to you, not to him. Other people are real too, and they each get to decide what is meaningful to them. It's not up to you.


----------



## Decorum

tacoma said:


> It's his beliefs that put him here.
> 
> What we believe colors our lives.
> 
> When those beliefs lead us to value that which is meaningless to the detriment of what is meaningful they become a liability not a benefit to our well being.
> The OPs current position is objective evidence of that.
> 
> 
> 
> You thought that was mind blowing?
> Stick around, my arrogance knows no bounds.


This experience will be an eye opener for Keven, it will challenge his current world view, and force him to see a bigger context in his faith, and there is every reason for his spirituality to expand and be even more authentic.

The Lord Jesus moved within the culture He lived in without pretense, and when He clashed with it, it was usually because He had a bigger perspective than those who were so Provincial.

Sometimes the answer is to gain more enlightenment from life and faith.

Take care!


----------



## ConanHub

Holy cow tacoma.... I sincerely hope your wife lies to you about some important value you have and you find out later she just played you and could give a shyt about who you are and you find out from her ex lover to boot.

Be fun to see your response then.

There are still a lot of people that do not share your values. You are certainly not superior.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

kevin1986 said:


> Am not really the type of guy who talks much even when am pissed, my actions are enough to know that am not okay inside, to blow off steam iv been working out more than usual, laying out my anger on a punching bag and weights. I have never even considered cheating till now, i told her sisters to stay out of our business, funny thing is even my close friends are telling me to put it behind me, i would say my wife is a good woman but she betrayed me, she fooled me and even though she is apologising i feel shes just trying save her skin. I read most women remember there first time and that guy , i asked her about it and she says its me she loves not her first, i cant figure this mess out, now she is worried just because i spent last night at a friends that i might cheat on her. Well i told her i want to experience for my self what she was doing in college.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Then divorce her and let her find someone who can accept her past. Revenge and retribution have no place in a marriage.

Oh and if I were you, I'd stop with the snarky cheating comments. You'll come home one day and she'll take the decision out of your hands.


----------



## Nucking Futs

BradWesley said:


> If the OP keeps pushing in the current direction, his wife is liable to file for D, and fvck him up big time


Possibly, but it doesn't change the fact that Kevin is a real person with every right to determine his own values.


----------



## BradWesley

Nucking Futs said:


> Possibly, but it doesn't change the fact that Kevin is a real person with every right to determine his own values.


Your point is well taken. 

However it has no bearing on her fvcking him over in a divorce settlement


----------



## Dogbert

kevin1986 said:


> Well because its like what am getting from people is her beliefs where okay, so if i sleep around them confess a few years down the line its okay. Its like a what people are calling now mistakes
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Look I'm not saying you don't have a valid reason to be PO because she lied and deceived you about her sexual past and made herself out to be a chaste virgin to avoid you dumping her. Hell you can even divorce her for committing a form of religious fraud and nobody would hold it against you. But please don't equate what she did while not in a committed relationship with what you'd be doing while still married. Her sin was fornication while yours would be adultery.


----------



## Ripper

For another perspective, they are trying to pass laws allowing prosecution of people who misrepresent themselves in order to get laid.

'I Wanted Justice': Con Victim Turns Focus to Changing Rape Law - NBC News

Which do you think is the more egregious:
A: Lying about being an investment banker to score that hot little barfly? Or B: Lying about your sexual history to pin someone down for years of marriage?


----------



## Thor

ConanHub said:


> Not advocating cheating BTW. Just want her to be forced to experience her emotions over the idea of her husband having sex with other women. Her current attitude is helping to destroy her marriage. Stupid.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


When my wife said "It was _only_ sex, and _everybody_ lies about sex", I replied "what if I did that, would it be ok?". Oh no, not at all ok! "That's totally different", she said.

Still the message may be received and eventually sink in. I just wouldn't expect the conversation to feel satisfying for Kevin if he has it. But hell yeah I'd have that conversation with her.


----------



## Thor

BradWesley said:


> However it has no bearing on her fvcking him over in a divorce settlement


She has already fvcked up his life. What she has taken can never be reclaimed. He can never have the marriage and family he wanted, valued, and thought he had. Sex will never be the same for him, within the marriage if he stays, or in a future second marriage if they D.

There is no "win" here for Kevin. There is only finding the best outcome from a crappy list of choices.


----------



## altawa

Nucking Futs said:


> Who the **** do you think you are to take his deeply held beliefs and **** on them? _You_ do not get to decide what is important for _him_. You do not get to decide that what he believes is not important simply because you disagree with him.
> 
> The arrogance of your post is mind blowing.


Thank you. You got to that before I could. The arrogance is astounding.


----------



## altawa

tacoma said:


> It's his beliefs that put him here.
> 
> What we believe colors our lives.
> 
> When those beliefs lead us to value that which is meaningless to the detriment of what is meaningful they become a liability not a benefit to our well being.
> The OPs current position is objective evidence of that.
> 
> 
> 
> You thought that was mind blowing?
> Stick around, my arrogance knows no bounds.


No, her blatant and completely disrespectfully selfish lies put him here. You are in no position to judge anybody's personally held religious beliefs. He wasn't holding some double standard. He lived to the same standard he expected of his wife. She BLATANTLY lied about it so she could get what she wanted.

His wife is 100 percent to blame for this. The attempt to blameshift this back on OP for something that he obviously advertised prior to their marriage is nothing short of jaw dropping.


----------



## EleGirl

kevin1986 said:


> I mean why shouldnt i experiment also? Maybe she thought me being a virgin was because i couldnt sleep around, well i can show her just how easy it is then see if she thinks its just sex. I want to know what the fuss is all about, i feel cheated deeply what this woman did was have her fun then entrap me into thinking shes the woman of my dreams.


There is a problem with your way of thinking.

When she had sex before she met you, she was not cheating on you. She did not even know you... so she had not made promise to you to forsake all others.

If you go out now and have sex with other women, you are cheating. Plus you will be using other women for sex for the sole purpose of revenge on your wife.

If you do cheat, make sure that you tell the other women why you want to have sex with them.. to punish your wife and to use them. After all honesty is very important.


----------



## EleGirl

kevin1986 said:


> To make matters worse her home town is where my own parents shifted to, so how can i not go there on holidays, i look after my parents am there only son so i gotta watch out for them, so no doubt i have to go there


How many people live in her home town?


----------



## EleGirl

Ripper said:


> For another perspective, they are trying to pass laws allowing prosecution of people who misrepresent themselves in order to get laid.
> 
> 'I Wanted Justice': Con Victim Turns Focus to Changing Rape Law - NBC News
> 
> Which do you think is the more egregious:
> A: Lying about being an investment banker to score that hot little barfly? Or B: Lying about your sexual history to pin someone down for years of marriage?


I'm not sure why you are calling the women in that article a bar fly. She was engaged to him when she found out that he is a con man with a long record of coning women out of a lot.. including money. Plus he's child molester.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

EleGirl said:


> I'm not sure why you are calling the women in that article a bar fly. She was engaged to him when she found out that he is a con man with a long record of coning women out of a lot.. including money. Plus he's child molester.


He's not calling her a barfly. IMO, he's equating her story and reaction to Kevin's feelings as being similar. He's differentiating between a blue collar worker saying he's a banker and tricking someone into marriage under false pretenses.


----------



## larry.gray

BradWesley said:


> If the OP keeps pushing in the current direction, his wife is liable to file for D, and fvck him up big time


I do not think her filing will be taken the way you think.

Her filing will be a bittersweet mixture of emotions. He's going to be sad, but also relieved. Devout Christians don't believe in divorce... but the Bible does speak of it being acceptable to divorce after abandonment. 

After that he can find a more compatable woman. Yes, he will have a history, but not one to be ashamed about. Few women of a comparable mindset would have an issue with a man who was abandoned.


----------



## EleGirl

Tubbalard said:


> If only lemon laws applied to marriage. You thought you bought a pure pristine unblemished virgin rolls royce that came out of the plant and you were the first to test drive it. Turned out it was just a used ford focus with cheap fabric and flesh stains on the seat. The dealer tricked you into buying it.


Once again a woman is compared to property.... cars.

A virgin is a rolls Royce and a woman who has had sex is a cheap ford focus with stained cheap fabric seats.

This is sad and disgusting.


----------



## EleGirl

larry.gray said:


> I do not think her filing will be taken the way you think.
> 
> Her filing will be a bittersweet mixture of emotions. He's going to be sad, but also relieved. Devout Christians don't believe in divorce... but the Bible does speak of it being acceptable to divorce after abandonment.
> 
> After that he can find a more compatable woman. Yes, he will have a history, but not one to be ashamed about. Few women of a comparable mindset would have an issue with a man who was abandoned.


Keep in mind that she has been an otherwise loving and faithful wife and mother. It might not be all that easy for him to find another woman with those qualities, just as it's not easy for a divorced woman to find a good man.

50% of marriages end in divorce. 70% of second marriages end in divorce because the children from previous marriages put a strain on the marriage.


----------



## Ripper

EleGirl said:


> Once again a woman is compared to property.... cars.


Someone contact the DOJ. Obviously, a hate crime has just been perpetrated.

While I don't agree with some of OP's revenge fantasies, he has every right to be pissed off right now. His partners sexual history mattered to him. She knew it, knew she didn't measure up, and lied about. Maybe I'm old fashion, but finding out my marriage was based on lies might just be a reasonable grounds for divorce.

We get it by now, a woman's sexual history is off limits. Doesn't matter what you believe or what your value system is. Just be glad she eventually chose you, right?


----------



## Coffee Amore

I deleted several posts in this thread. If you have an issue with another poster either put them on Ignore or take it to Private Message. Don't threadjack or derail the thread with snide comments at each other.


----------



## Acoa

Ripper said:


> We get it by now, a woman's sexual history is off limits. Doesn't matter what you believe or what your value system is. Just be glad she eventually chose you, right?



And its attitudes like this that tempt women to lie about their past. Everyone comes with a history. But it's who they are now that matters. 

A girlfriend of mine back in HS was a huge svlt. I bet she slept with 20 guys or more before she settled down and got married. Somewhere along the way she realized the sex doesn't equal love. She stopped having sex until she eventually found her current hubby and got married. She is a wonderful wife. Won't friend me on FB because of our past. I see her and her hubby around town every now and again. If we do say more than hi or bye she is very respectful towards him.

My ex on the other hand saved herself for marriage and had a rep in HS as a goodie two shoes, and slept with at least 4 other guys behind my back. 

That HS svlt turned out to be the better wife. Sometimes a persons history is just that, history. It's who they are today that matters.


----------



## leon1

Have you tried talking to her and trying to get to understand your point of view .


----------



## Marduk

Kevin man, you have to chill and get some distance from this.

I know it's hard. Keep working out. Keep hanging with your buddies.

Until you can be rational to your wife, keep your mouth shut.

Cheating won't bring you happiness. It won't make what she did to you any better. Hell, it won't even bring you down to her level because for all we know she's never cheated on you.

What she did was lie to you so that you would marry her, and now you're trapped by that. And she disrespected you by putting you into a situation that you would find out her previous sex life not from her, but from other guys that have been there and done that.

That's what she did.

You need to focus on what's real. And what's real is that your marriage was built on a foundation of lies and now you're trapped by that.

I can't tell you what the right thing to do is. But I can tell you that cheating is the wrong thing to do.


----------



## Thor

Acoa said:


> And its attitudes like this that tempt women to lie about their past. Everyone comes with a history. But it's who they are now that matters.


The problem for Kevin is 1) his wife is still that same person she was back then, and 2) she covered it up with a serious lie.

It would be very different if Kevin's wife had said she had this history she was not proud of from when she was young, and she has a totally different value system now. If she had said she was naive back then, but had now grown into a belief system consistent with Kevin's, he might have (or not) stayed with her and married her.

But instead, his wife hid who she was at the time, and is still today apparently still the same. She clearly has a different belief system around sex, which is not compatible at all with Kevin's.

So yes it is important who she really is today, not who she is pretending to be today.


----------



## Thor

Kevin, where are you at with seeking individual therapy and marriage counseling? Have you sought out any books on infidelity or dealing with dishonesty in marriage?


----------



## EleGirl

Ripper said:


> Someone contact the DOJ. Obviously, a hate crime has just been perpetrated.
> 
> While I don't agree with some of OP's revenge fantasies, he has every right to be pissed off right now. His partners sexual history mattered to him. She knew it, knew she didn't measure up, and lied about. Maybe I'm old fashion, but finding out my marriage was based on lies might just be a reasonable grounds for divorce.
> 
> *We get it by now, a woman's sexual history is off limits. Doesn't matter what you believe or what your value system is. Just be glad she eventually chose you, right*?


If you had bothered to read any of my previous posts on this thread you would know how that I have clearly stated that she was wrong, very wrong, to lie to him about her sexual history. She should have told him the truth. That she was not a virgin. Then he could have made up his own mind based on the truth.

However, I was not replying in that post to the OP. I was replying to poster who was making the analogy that a woman who is not a virgin is like a used cheap Ford focus with stained seats. So this is what he thinks of women who are not virgins. 

Maybe he's from Saudi?


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Acoa said:


> And its attitudes like this that tempt women to lie about their past. Everyone comes with a history. But it's who they are now that matters.


It's why people lie in general. People hide their jobs, their felonies, their drinking, their race, their gender, their net worth, their sexuality ecetera regardless of gender when they fall in love. While I agree virginity expectation is worse for women, OP wanted someone based on how he lived his life. HE wasn't a hypocritical player demanding a virgin for a wife. I know I picked my wife and she dated me based on mutual compatibility. Yes, we all come with a past and it is OKAY for us to make choices based on that history no matter how good, bad or illogical it appears to others.

We can parse these attitudes into infinity, or help OP get past this lie.


----------



## ConanHub

Acoa said:


> And its attitudes like this that tempt women to lie about their past. Everyone comes with a history. But it's who they are now that matters.
> 
> A girlfriend of mine back in HS was a huge svlt. I bet she slept with 20 guys or more before she settled down and got married. Somewhere along the way she realized the sex doesn't equal love. She stopped having sex until she eventually found her current hubby and got married. She is a wonderful wife. Won't friend me on FB because of our past. I see her and her hubby around town every now and again. If we do say more than hi or bye she is very respectful towards him.
> 
> My ex on the other hand saved herself for marriage and had a rep in HS as a goodie two shoes, and slept with at least 4 other guys behind my back.
> 
> That HS svlt turned out to be the better wife. Sometimes a persons history is just that, history. It's who they are today that matters.


I get the second half of your post but you are off on the first part. Was your ex slvt friend honest with her husband?

OP was lied to about a core value. He is married to someone who not only disagrees with his core values but thinks it is fine to lie and manipulate someone with different values to get what you want.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Acoa

ConanHub said:


> I get the second half of your post but you are off on the first part. Was your ex slvt friend honest with her husband?
> 
> 
> 
> OP was lied to about a core value. He is married to someone who not only disagrees with his core values but thinks it is fine to lie and manipulate someone with different values to get what you want.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



No, she owned her past. The first part was aimed directly at something Ripper said.

The OP has every right to be upset and feel cheated that she lied. But he should focus on her honesty and determine if he really knows her or not. 

It doesn't sound like she has been empathetic about the pain he is feeling over this discovery. 

But OP is still focused on her past exploits. But if she has been loyal to him since marriage, the lie is the issue. His focus seems to be on the sex. Does he suspect her of something more recent?


----------



## kevin1986

Look i know she has been a faith wife, people lie everyday.i can get over the lie because i understand the reason why she lied, she was afraid i would dump her probably i would have, now the issue is the sex with these men, i feel the only way for me to understand her ways is for me to experience them, am thinking we should seperate for a while, i told her about what i want to do and i can see shes heart broken she doesnt want me to know any other woman like that apart from her, but what about her and her exes? Aint i justified in playing the field also?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## chaos

Kevin, have you renounced your religious principles?


----------



## manfromlamancha

No you are not. First of all it would be cheating. And second of all 2 wrongs would not make a right - this is not tit for tat.


----------



## larry.gray

I can empathise with thinking that way. I just think it's a mistake. One you will regret.

Some think you put this thread in the wrong place. I don't. After all, what you are dealing with is a spouse who lied about sex. One who's not remorseful to boot.

So let's take that parallel further. What you're proposing is essentialy a revenge affair. One thing you can glean from this forum is that those who have revenge affairs universally regret them.


----------



## Personal

kevin1986 said:


> Look i know she has been a faith wife, people lie everyday.i can get over the lie because i understand the reason why she lied, she was afraid i would dump her probably i would have, now the issue is the sex with these men, i feel the only way for me to understand her ways is for me to experience them, am thinking we should seperate for a while, i told her about what i want to do and i can see shes heart broken she doesnt want me to know any other woman like that apart from her, but what about her and her exes? Aint i justified in playing the field also?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Are you a particularly immoral man?

If you are, I encourage you to feel free to sexually betray your wife and pursue infidelity.

Although your wife egregiously lied to you about her sexual past, throughout your relationship, she has not cheated on you with another man.

Yet here you are "a religious young man" on a forum for Coping with Infidelity, seeking encouragement to abrogate your own moral responsibilities in order to justify the hateful act of marital sexual betrayal.

Charming!

If you love your wife you won't do this.

If you hate your wife and want to punish her for having a life before you get on with it.

That said, if you do cheat on your wife, don't be surprised if you suddenly find yourself facing a well deserved divorce.


----------



## chaos

Kevin, separation is nothing more than having your cake and eating it to. It's bullsh*t. Have the integrity to divorce your wife first. Give her the opportunity to move on with her life while you go and have a string of sexual encounters with different women.


----------



## kevin1986

I still love my wife and i have not renounced my faith, but she enjoyed her sleeping around and for your information she did cheat on her ex boyfriend that i know because has revealed alot since all this happened. She cheated on her ex because he was also cheatong on her, now am the bad guy now because i want to experience what she said was just sex? I mean if i forgive her and move on wont that make me look weak? And she made a statement that bugged me yesterday she said i was a nice guy, what does that mean? SO she can screw around with bad boys and settle with the nice guy?????
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## arbitrator

kevin1986 said:


> Look i know she has been a faith wife, people lie everyday.i can get over the lie because i understand the reason why she lied, she was afraid i would dump her probably i would have, now the issue is the sex with these men, i feel the only way for me to understand her ways is for me to experience them, am thinking we should seperate for a while, i told her about what i want to do and i can see shes heart broken she doesnt want me to know any other woman like that apart from her, but what about her and her exes? Aint i justified in playing the field also?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


*Kevin: If I were going to play the field again, I'd be certain that I had ended the relationship that I was already in first ~and through the legitimate channels of D.

And no one said that you had to settle with her!*


----------



## chaos

kevin1986 said:


> I still love my wife and i have not renounced my faith, but she enjoyed her sleeping around and for your information she did cheat on her ex boyfriend that i know because has revealed alot since all this happened. She cheated on her ex because he was also cheatong on her, now am the bad guy now because i want to experience what she said was just sex? I mean if i forgive her and move on wont that make me look weak? And she made a statement that bugged me yesterday she said i was a nice guy, what does that mean? SO she can screw around with bad boys and settle with the nice guy?????


Isn't forgiveness one of your faith's greatest principles? Are you saying that your Messiah, the Son of God was weak for forgiving those folks who did wrong, including his tormentors? Do you remember the story of Hosea and Gomer? Yet when it comes time for you to prove your mettle as a Christian, your faith is nowhere to be found.

Lastly the term "Nice guy" has come to represent something totally different than its original meaning of a kind, fair and decent man. You are definitely not weak for being a loving, kind, fair and decent man. Just the opposite.

You are free to do as you see fit with your life, but if you betray the principles of your faith, at least have the honesty to say you no longer are a believer.


----------



## Personal

kevin1986 said:


> I still love my wife and i have not renounced my faith, but she enjoyed her sleeping around and for your information she did cheat on her ex boyfriend that i know because has revealed alot since all this happened. She cheated on her ex because he was also cheatong on her, now am the bad guy now because i want to experience what she said was just sex? I mean if i forgive her and move on wont that make me look weak? And she made a statement that bugged me yesterday she said i was a nice guy, what does that mean? SO she can screw around with bad boys and settle with the nice guy?????
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


For someone who claims to love his wife you seem extraordinarily determined to hurt her!

Do you even know what love is?

Ironically you reveal that your wife has cheated when cheated upon, yet here you are wanting to cheat on her despite the fact she has never cheated on you. I wonder what might happen, if you behave like her ex?

Forgiving your wife for omitting the truth of a past before you were in the picture, is very far from the extraordinary act of forgiveness your wife would be required to undertake if you *cheat* on her.

There is strength in forgiveness, wanting to hurt the one you love is extraordinarily weak!

Your choices are rather stark; You can either demolish your marriage, by undertaking a heinous act of betrayal through becoming an adulterer. Or you might be able to save and reconcile your marriage by ending your temper tantrum.

If you can't figure out what is self evident, I hope you enjoy your divorce.


----------



## Acoa

Kev, you're a mess and need help. Separate from your wife if you need time to think. That's totally understandable. But keep in mind most couples who separate stay that way. 

Your goal right now is to determine if you still want to spend the rest of your life with this woman who deceived you. 

If not, do what you want. If you do, act in line to your own moral compass. You won't heal by betraying yourself.

And forgiveness takes strength. Does she deserve it? No, but that's what makes it so powerful.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

kevin1986 said:


> I still love my wife and i have not renounced my faith, but she enjoyed her sleeping around and for your information she did cheat on her ex boyfriend that i know because has revealed alot since all this happened. She cheated on her ex because he was also cheatong on her, now am the bad guy now because i want to experience what she said was just sex? I mean if i forgive her and move on wont that make me look weak? And she made a statement that bugged me yesterday she said i was a nice guy, what does that mean? SO she can screw around with bad boys and settle with the nice guy?????
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


First off, you had your chance for fun before you got married and decided you didn't want that. No fair that you now want to experience these things now unless you divorce.

So...nice guy. I asked twice before in this thread but you failed to answer. Is she withholding a number of sex acts from you that she used to engage in with former lovers? If so, the that is where your issue lies if you plan to remain with her. That and her being open to exploring intimacy with you so that you have a fulfilling sex life.


----------



## bfree

kevin1986 said:


> I still love my wife and i have not renounced my faith, but she enjoyed her sleeping around and for your information she did cheat on her ex boyfriend that i know because has revealed alot since all this happened. She cheated on her ex because he was also cheatong on her, now am the bad guy now because i want to experience what she said was just sex? I mean if i forgive her and move on wont that make me look weak? And she made a statement that bugged me yesterday she said i was a nice guy, what does that mean? *SO she can screw around with bad boys and settle with the nice guy*?????
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's exactly what it means and that's exactly what happens in many cases. Had you not decided to hold your principles higher you most likely would have sowed your oats before marriage as well. I'd like you to think of two things.

First, in hindsight did your principles mean as much to you as you thought they did. Your words make it seem that you are jealous of your wife and the life she had before marriage. In my opinion she should be jealous of you because you didn't bend to society's pressures and held fast to what you believed. Frankly, that's probably what attracted your wife to you. If you abandon your principles now do you think she'll still think of you the same way?

Second, are you now throwing away your core values, not because you made the decision independently but because it is a response to something someone else did. If you are really ready to do that then how important are your principles to you?

I'm of a mind to never let anyone else's actions dictate to me what I will do. I stand as a rock on my moral code and I don't really give a damn what anyone else thinks. If I reacted to everyone else I wouldn't be a rock I'd be a ping pong ball forever bouncing one way or another. You must decide what is important to you and hold onto that with all your strength. That is the one thing that can never be taken from you if you don't let it.

If you do decide to experience other women please make sure to do it out in the open and don't deceive your wife or anyone else in your family or friends. Make sure the separation agreement states that you can see other people during this period so it won't be held against you in the future. And understand that your wife can and very probably will see other people as well. That's what happens when you open this can of worms. No it's not fair but then again what in life really is.


----------



## BobSimmons

Brah just walk away. You're almost abusing yourself


----------



## Locke.Stratos

kevin1986 said:


> Look i know she has been a faith wife, people lie everyday.i can get over the lie because i understand the reason why she lied, she was afraid i would dump her probably i would have, now the issue is the sex with these men, i feel the only way for me to understand her ways is for me to experience them, am thinking we should seperate for a while, i told her about what i want to do and i can see shes heart broken she doesnt want me to know any other woman like that apart from her, but what about her and her exes? Aint i justified in playing the field also?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


*Kevin1986* do you actually have some women in mind that you want to sleep with already or are these just arbitrary conquests to you? What then afterwards, will you stop after sleeping with one or ten? How will this make you feel better, have you always wanted to sleep with women other than your wife since you started dating her?


----------



## badkarma2013

Originally Posted by kevin1986 View Post
I still love my wife and i have not renounced my faith, but she enjoyed her sleeping around and for your information she did cheat on her ex boyfriend that i know because has revealed alot since all this happened. She cheated on her ex because he was also cheatong on her, now am the bad guy now because i want to experience what she said was just sex? I mean if i forgive her and move on wont that make me look weak? And she made a statement that bugged me yesterday she said i was a nice guy, what does that mean? SO she can screw around with bad boys and settle with the nice guy?????
Posted via Mobile Device


******************************************************

Everything Im reading in the above post happened BEFORE you were married....Sorry sir...Dosent count ...We as men may not like it but she chose to be with you...I am a BH and it happened to me in the worst way possiable...and I DETEST WWs..from what happened to me...so I do understand you as a man....

I have a friend who is in his 50s ...Wife left Divorced after 24 years of marriage...To make it short...He met a Woman and dated for 2 1/2 years..he was contemplating on Marriage..About 6 months into the relationship the question of how many partners did you have since our Divorces...He had 3 and told her ...She also said 3.and that was that....

He takes her out and suggest plans for Engagement etc...She said to him"We need to talk" I have lied to you for 2years...I slept with many men this first year and a half after my D...He said so its not 3...She said 18-20....and asked for him to forgive 
her...he stood as said i forgive you ..i do...but "I could never marry you"...It is not what you did ....YOU LIED, knowing for 2 years you have lied..I forgive you but I could never marry you..And he has not spoken to her since...

As you can see it was NOT what she did..It is the lies and deceit that we cannot deal with..

If you are going to cheat...file for D...If you do not change, that is where you are headed anyway.....


PS As the Russian Proverb states.."I had rather be slapped with the Truth..Than kissed with a LIE."


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## MattMatt

badkarma2013 said:


> Originally Posted by kevin1986 View Post
> I still love my wife and i have not renounced my faith, but she enjoyed her sleeping around and for your information she did cheat on her ex boyfriend that i know because has revealed alot since all this happened. She cheated on her ex because he was also cheatong on her, now am the bad guy now because i want to experience what she said was just sex? I mean if i forgive her and move on wont that make me look weak? And she made a statement that bugged me yesterday she said i was a nice guy, what does that mean? SO she can screw around with bad boys and settle with the nice guy?????
> Posted via Mobile Device
> 
> 
> ******************************************************
> 
> Everything Im reading in the above post happened BEFORE you were married....Sorry sir...Dosent count ...We as men may not like it but she chose to be with you...I am a BH and it happened to me in the worst way possiable...and I DETEST WWs..from what happened to me...so I do understand you as a man....
> 
> I have a friend who is in his 50s ...Wife left Divorced after 24 years of marriage...To make it short...He met a Woman and dated for 2 1/2 years..he was contemplating on Marriage..About 6 months into the relationship the question of how many partners did you have since our Divorces...He had 3 and told her ...She also said 3.and that was that....
> 
> He takes her out and suggest plans for Engagement etc...She said to him"We need to talk" I have lied to you for 2years...I slept with many men this first year and a half after my D...He said so its not 3...She said 18-20....and asked for him to forgive
> her...he stood as said i forgive you ..i do...but "I could never marry you"...It is not what you did ....YOU LIED, knowing for 2 years you have lied..I forgive you but I could never marry you..And he has not spoken to her since...
> 
> As you can see it was NOT what she did..It is the lies and deceit that we cannot deal with..
> 
> If you are going to cheat...file for D...If you do not change, that is where you are headed anyway.....
> 
> 
> PS As the Russian Proverb states.."I had rather be slapped with the Truth..Than kissed with a LIE."


:iagree:


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## Thor

bfree said:


> That's exactly what it means and that's exactly what happens in many cases. Had you not decided to hold your principles higher you most likely would have sowed your oats before marriage as well. I'd like you to think of two things.
> 
> First, in hindsight did your principles mean as much to you as you thought they did. Your words make it seem that you are jealous of your wife and the life she had before marriage..


bfree, I agree and I would like to put a slightly different slant on it.

Kevin probably is a Nice Guy in the pathological sense from the book No More Mr. Nice Guy. Nice Guys tend to think of themselves as Good Guys who are not selfish, who do not take advantage of others. The opposite of Bad Boys or Jerks.

There is a lot of anger towards Bad Boys and Jerks because those guys get things they don't really deserve according to the Nice Guy paradigm. Kevin believed that as a Nice Guy he deserved to get a woman with the same values as him, but now finds out that a bunch of Bad Boys and Jerks _took that away from him_.

There is a lot of self hatred, too, at being so stupid as to not see what was really going on. There is self doubt about being a Nice Guy. Kevin is angry at everyone right now, having had his entire world view collapse. He is angry at himself, his wife, the Bad Boys and Jerks his wife had sex with, maybe his church, his parents.

What he thought would bring him happiness has instead brought him all this pain.

There's more. He wonders what he is missing inside. Is he defective having only had one woman yet all other men out there are having sex with lots of women? Even his wife has had multiple sex partners. This makes him feel inferior to her and all the Bad Boys because he doesn't know what it is like to have had other lovers. 

He wonders if it is really the case for his wife (and all women) Alpha for fvcks, Beta for bucks? Did she really do that to him? In the Nice Guy world, sex = love. She just destroyed both sex and love for him.


----------



## Thor

Kevin, do you have any plans for individual therapy? Have you bought the book "Surviving Infidelity" yet?

Have you bought "No More Mr. Nice Guy" by Dr. R. Glover yet?

It is time you stopped complaining and started taking some action. You can still complain and you will still hurt, but only action will change things.


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## badkarma2013

Thor said:


> Kevin, do you have any plans for individual therapy? Have you bought the book "Surviving Infidelity" yet?
> 
> Have you bought "No More Mr. Nice Guy" by Dr. R. Glover yet?
> 
> It is time you stopped complaining and started taking some action. You can still complain and you will still hurt, but only action will change things.


You mentioned above...the book "Surviving Infidelity"...
Have I missed something...Did not his wifes actions happen BEFORE they were married...If they did how is that Infidelity??
***********************************************************************************
He wonders if it is really the case for his wife (and all women) Alpha for fvcks, Beta for bucks? Did she really do that to him? In the Nice Guy world, sex = love. She just destroyed both sex and love for him...

I am [email protected] sorry to say most of the time that is the case...and i say that for alot of BHs here..


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## Divinely Favored

Don't cheat...."Do not repay evil for evil" If you feel you must go there, you have biblical grounds for divorce due to her sexual immorality (multiple partners and 3 some while claiming to be virgin). Divorce then if you can remarry after some time. At least by then the marriage will be on equal footing as hopefully you can no longer feel justified/anger in holding her previous partners against her. Or you may find someone else who better lines up with your own personal sexual morality.

BTW did you ever find out if the 3some was 2 men or man/woman. If it was with 2 men i do not believe it was her 1st and only time for 3 some.


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## Dogbert

Thor said:


> Have you bought "No More Mr. Nice Guy" by Dr. R. Glover yet?


No need for him to buy it when he can download it for free from *Here*.


----------



## badkarma2013

Divinely Favored said:


> Don't cheat...."Do not repay evil for evil" If you feel you must go there, you have biblical grounds for divorce due to her sexual immorality (multiple partners and 3 some while claiming to be virgin). Divorce then if you can remarry after some time. At least by then the marriage will be on equal footing as hopefully you can no longer feel justified/anger in holding her previous partners against her. Or you may find someone else who better lines up with your own personal sexual morality.
> 
> BTW did you ever find out if the 3some was 2 men or man/woman. If it was with 2 men i do not believe it was her 1st and only time for 3 some.



******************************************************

Whoa..Did not her actions happen BEFORE they were Married..If it happened before there is NO BIBLICAL grounds for Divorce..

For she is due the same REDEMPTION as all of us...


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## Dogbert

Is it just me or is the "T" word flashing like a neon billboard?


----------



## badkarma2013

Dogbert said:


> Is it just me or is the "T" word flashing like a neon billboard?


T. ???..Pls humor me...


----------



## Marduk

kevin1986 said:


> Look i know she has been a faith wife, people lie everyday.i can get over the lie because i understand the reason why she lied, she was afraid i would dump her probably i would have, now the issue is the sex with these men, i feel the only way for me to understand her ways is for me to experience them, am thinking we should seperate for a while, i told her about what i want to do and i can see shes heart broken she doesnt want me to know any other woman like that apart from her, but what about her and her exes? Aint i justified in playing the field also?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If you divorce her and set her free to do the same, then you are justified.

If not, you're just playing games trying to level the playing field, and it's becoming more about you feeling like you've missed out on screwing around than the fact that she did.

The fact that you can get over her lying to you to marry you but not the other stuff is astounding.


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## SecondTime'Round

You sound kinda jealous that she got to have experiences with other people and you didn't. 

If you decide to go screw around just to level the playing field and make things "equal" with her, I highly doubt she'll stick around. She'll find someone who accepts her past and doesn't feel the need to have tit for tat.


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## MattMatt

OK, Kevin, seeing as you have made a fairly major plank of your religious beliefs in regards to your reaction to your wife's lies about her past, I will ask you one simple question that is guaranteed to cut through page after page of BS. 

*What do you think Jesus would have you do?*

Please tell us, now. And then go thou and do likewise.


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## manfromlamancha

Kevin, you now sound like you are trying to justify your wanting to sleep with other women just to stop you from feeling inadequate or something. So she had more experience in sex than you when you two started out. So what ? I am sure that you have more than made up for that with trying things out with her!

And she calls you nice and you take offence. I don't think you need to be a bad boy to be an attractive man. Stand tall and show her what you really are - a good man! Stop feeling inadequate - that is very unattractive (not just to your wife but other potential partners you may be thinking of pursuing).

*She has not cheated! She loves you. BUT she lied about her sexual past and that is the only thing you should concentrate on. It is human to want vengeance for that but it is also divine to forgive. And you have said that you have already forgiven her for the lie!!!!!*

If that really is the case, then show her the love she shows you everyday. Have the honest chat and I am sure now that this weight is also off her shoulders you will have a much more fulfilling relationship going forward. AND she will see you for the man you really are (and should be).

Stop trying to be less than you are or become something that you would be ashamed of.


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## jld

MattMatt said:


> OK, Kevin, seeing as you have made a fairly major plank of your religious beliefs in regards to your reaction to your wife's lies about her past, I will ask you one simple question that is guaranteed to cut through page after page of BS.
> 
> *What do you think Jesus would have you do?*
> 
> Please tell us, now. And then go thou and do likewise.


:iagree:


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## badkarma2013

SecondTime'Round said:


> You sound kinda jealous that she got to have experiences with other people and you didn't.
> 
> If you decide to go screw around just to level the playing field and make things "equal" with her, I highly doubt she'll stick around. She'll find someone who accepts her past and doesn't feel the need to have tit for tat.


*******************************************************

This is almost like False Reconciliation ......Alot of Bhs enter to R knowing it will not work and knowing they cannot get over it.

In their case and this gentlemans as well, no matter what his now wife or the wives of the BHs ..does no matter what they say or try to help them heal.... they can NEVER [email protected] the OM or MEN...and there inlays the issue...Badkarma


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## Dogbert

badkarma2013 said:


> T. ???..Pls humor me...


Troll. I hope I'm wrong though.


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## MattMatt

Kevin, I just said a prayer for you and your wife and child.


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## bandit.45

> Isn't forgiveness one of your faith's greatest principles? Are you saying that your Messiah, the Son of God was weak for forgiving those folks who did wrong, including his tormentors?


Forgiveness is not always unilateral, not even with God, yet many preachers falsely preach this unilateral forgiveness doctrine, which is basically based on humanistic philosophy. 

Two men died on crosses along side Christ. Only one of them joined Christ in Paradise, because he asked Jesus to remember him, essentially a weak attempt at remorse for his life's sins, and even wit that weak repentance Jesus, compelled by his Father's law, forgave him and took him to Paradise with him that day. 

Kevin has not mentioned that his wife has asked for forgiveness or shown repentence. Only that she "feels bad" about lying to him. If she asks for his forgiveness then he is compelled by his faith to forgive her. If she cannot bring herself to show true remorse for conning him, ask her husband to forgive her, then Kevin has no Biblical, ethical or moral compulsion to do so. 



> Do you remember the story of Hosea and Gomer? Yet when it comes time for you to prove your mettle as a Christian, your faith is nowhere to be found.


I wish people would stop using the Hosea story in the wrong context. 

God commanded Hosea specifically to stay with his prostitute wife to serve as a living example of God's (the husband's) devotion to Isreal (the cheating, lascivious wife). This task was Hosea's ministry. This was a one time, specific ministry that God asked one man to perform. God does not hold us to endure what Hosea endured with his wife. 

By the Biblical law, Kevin has every right to divorce his wife because she tricked him into marriage through misrepresentation. Doesn't matter how good a wife she has been since. 

What God does expects Kevin to do is forgive her if she asks for forgiveness. He can release her from his anger and resentment. But even then, Kevin is not compelled to stay married to her, and still has the right to divorce her for her fraudulent behavior.


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## badkarma2013

Dogbert said:


> Troll. I hope I'm wrong though.


Caught up in the frenzy...thanks DOG


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## badkarma2013

By the Biblical law, Kevin has every right to divorce his wife because she tricked him into marriage through misrepresentation. Doesn't matter how good a wife she has been since. 

******************************************************

What Law from what Bible...is that???.....SHE LIED...and it was BEFORE they were married...I should say if you and I looked into EVERY relationship and Marriage we have been involved with ...EVERYBODY Lied...."I saw you with your ex..do you still love him..No honey hes just a friend..LIE and I could go on for days..

WE kept right on going with it...This happened BEFORE they were married...we all are conned...men EXPECT sex after marriage...10 years later how many live in a sexless marriage.....CONNED...They have a child and his wife goes to sh*t and basically just lays down....Conned and I could go on and on.....

Point is we ALL LIE..You and I as well...and again it was Before they were married ...If we all played by your BIBLICAL RULES ...EVERYONE OF US would be due our pound of flesh...Badkarma


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## bandit.45

Kevin if being called a nice guy by your wife bothers you then stop being a "nice" guy. 

Keep working out and get buff. Take martial arts. Buy a Harley. Shave your head and grow a goatee. Cover yourself in tats. Wear leather. 

But don't cheat on her. Cheating on your wife doesn't make you a tough guy...it makes you a POS. Do you want to be a piece of sh*t?


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## bandit.45

badkarma2013 said:


> By the Biblical law, Kevin has every right to divorce his wife because she tricked him into marriage through misrepresentation. Doesn't matter how good a wife she has been since.
> 
> ******************************************************
> 
> What Law from what Bible...is that???.....SHE LIED...and it was BEFORE they were married...I should say if you and I looked into EVERY relationship and Marriage we have been involved with ...EVERYBODY Lied...."I saw you with your ex..do you still love him..No honey hes just a friend..LIE and I could go on for days..
> 
> WE kept right on going with it...This happened BEFORE they were married...we all are conned...men EXPECT sex after marriage...10 years later how many live in a sexless marriage.....CONNED...They have a child and his wife goes to sh*t and basically just lays down....Conned and I could go on and on.....
> 
> Point is we ALL LIE..You and I as well...and again it was Before they were married ...If we all played by your BIBLICAL RULES ...EVERYONE OF US would be due our pound of flesh...Badkarma


Sure we lie. Of course we do. 

What does your point have to do with my point? 

And yes, he has the Biblical right to divorce her, because biblically she did cheat on him. The way I read the Bible is that anyone who commits fornication is essentially cheating on their future spouse. The Bible doesn't discriminate on the timing of the act. Most of us here fornicated before marriage, but if we misrepresent that and lie about it to our prospective spouses, then I believe they can divorce us legally and Biblically.

Just my opinion based on what I know of the Bible. 

I do not condone Kevin screwing around on his wife. That is blatant adultery and yes, if you measure it by degree, it would be worse than her having lied to him. He needs to divorce her if he cannot stomach other men having had her before him.


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## ConanHub

Good illustration bandit. I'm impressed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bandit.45

ConanHub said:


> Good illustration bandit. I'm impressed.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm a recovering Baptist.


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## ConanHub

bandit.45 said:


> I'm a recovering Baptist.


A pretty well studied one. &#55357;&#56841;
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dogbert

bandit, I think the point chaos was trying to make was that old Kev has been brandishing his faith as a badge of honor yet at the same time wanting to indulge in not only fornication but adultery as well. So far his comments show him to be a CINO (Christian In Name Only) and not a true Christian.


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## bandit.45

Dogbert said:


> bandit, I think the point chaos was trying to make was that old Kev has been brandishing his faith as a badge of honor yet at the same time wanting to indulge in not only fornication but adultery as well. So far his comments show him to be a CINO (Christian In Name Only) and not a true Christian.


I agree. 

I'm a CINO also, so I should know. 

I agree that his statements about wanting to go out and get some on the side does not line up with his professed beliefs. 

My take is that Kevin was probably a shy guy, awkward around women as a teen and therefore never had a girl hit on him. I don't think he abstained from sex because of his beliefs, but mainly because the chicks weren't going after him. He was probably shy and passive and just never got any. So later he claimed he didn't have sex because he was a devout believer, primarily so he wouldn't have to admit he was a virgin out of omission... 

Its a good way to look admirable and uphold your masculinity when others ask why you never had sex before marriage. Yeah, I'm not buying what Kevin is selling.


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## SecondTime'Round

Dogbert said:


> bandit, I think the point chaos was trying to make was that old Kev has been brandishing his faith as a badge of honor yet at the same time wanting to indulge in not only fornication but adultery as well. So far his comments show him to be a CINO (Christian In Name Only) and not a true Christian.


Agree. The solution to one's being upset that their spouse has been found out to have had premarital sex when it's against your religious beliefs is not to then go discard your religious beliefs and go have extra-marital sex yourself! What does that solve?

Kevin, are you really going to let your wife's past completely change your conviction that extra-marital sex is wrong? That's weak.


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## Dogbert

Kev, I'm no Casanova or Don Juan, but I've had my small share of women I was sexually involved in the past. Take it from me, sex without an emotional connection is nothing more than two people masturbating each other. It doesn't even compare to the sex you can have with a woman you love and who loves you in return. I would trade all my past sexual experiences in a heartbeat, for a loyal and loving woman any day of the week.


----------



## kevin1986

bandit.45 said:


> I agree.
> I'm a CINO also, so I should know.
> I agree that his statements about wanting to go out and get some on the side does not line up with his professed beliefs.
> My take is that Kevin was probably a shy guy, awkward around women as a teen and therefore never had a girl hit on him. I don't think he abstained from sex because of his beliefs, but mainly because the chicks weren't going after him. He was probably shy and passive and just never got any. So later he claimed he didn't have sex because he was a devout believer, primarily so he wouldn't have to admit he was a virgin out of omission...
> Its a good way to look admirable and uphold your masculinity when others ask why you never had sex before marriage. Yeah, I'm not buying what Kevin is selling.


Oh just because i was a devout christian teen, that means i was shy and passive??? man you dont know me at all. Me wanting to sleep around now is so that my wife understands how much she hurt me. I could have slept around in my teens, but i CHOOSE not to. I have also lied to my wife some one very close to her made moves on me years back from her circle of friends, the same friend who started the discussion about ex lovers at her home town. The same who suggested to me a few days ago that if i slept around i would understand. This is the same woman who my wife had a 3 some with, i cant explain every single thing i have found out these past few weeks its too much. My wife has 4 good friends and she is the only one who is married all her friends are always changing men like shoes so i was bound to find out about her past. i will not divorce her but she should also know how it feels for her man to be shared by other women
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blondilocks

Kevin, you're comparing apples to oranges. What she did was before she said "I Do". What you're contemplating is after the "I Do". She can't unf*ck the donkey so you need to figure out how you can come to terms with the fact that you were lied to and manipulated by your wife.

Consider divorcing your wife and coming at it as a new relationship - one where you both are on equal footing and have access to full disclosure. Only then will you feel as though you made a choice free of lies, deception & manipulation.


----------



## BobSimmons

kevin1986 said:


> Oh just because i was a devout christian teen, that means i was shy and passive??? man you dont know me at all. Me wanting to sleep around now is so that my wife understands how much she hurt me. I could have slept around in my teens, but i CHOOSE not to. I have also lied to my wife some one very close to her made moves on me years back from her circle of friends, the same friend who started the discussion about ex lovers at her home town. The same who suggested to me a few days ago that if i slept around i would understand. This is the same woman who my wife had a 3 some with, i cant explain every single thing i have found out these past few weeks its too much. My wife has 4 good friends and she is the only one who is married all her friends are always changing men like shoes so i was bound to find out about her past. i will not divorce her but she should also know how it feels for her man to be shared by other women
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Classy, then everything is sorted. No need for this thread then.


----------



## Retribution

kevin1986 said:


> *Oh just because i was a devout christian teen, that means i was shy and passive??? *man you dont know me at all. Me wanting to sleep around now is so that my wife understands how much she hurt me. I could have slept around in my teens, but i *CHOOSE* not to. I have also lied to my wife some one very close to her made moves on me years back from her circle of friends, the same friend who started the discussion about ex lovers at her home town. The same who suggested to me a few days ago that if i slept around i would understand. This is the same woman who my wife had a 3 some with, i cant explain every single thing i have found out these past few weeks its too much. My wife has 4 good friends and she is the only one who is married all her friends are always changing men like shoes so i was bound to find out about her past. *i will not divorce her but she should also know how it feels for her man to be shared by other women*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Kevin, I'd like to particularly address the bolded parts. None of us here really know you. It isn't fair for any of us to conclude something and label you.

You incorrectly used the present tense "choose" instead of "chose". I know it was a typo, but I would like to encourage you to make sure you really keep those morals present. That won't be a mistake.

I would like to ask, Christian or not, do you believe that making your wife know what it feels like to share you with other women is better than letting her go through a divorce? Have you had any opportunity to talk to God about this, and if not, will you?

Kevin, life isn't fair. This whole CWI forum wouldn't exist if it was. This sucks major balls, and I know for a fact that what you're going through with your wife isn't going to just go away. Whether you offer forgiveness or go out and bang a bunch of strangers *it won't go away.* There's not a hell of a lot that's going to make your pain go away, my friend. As long as you have a memory you can't make the pain from this betrayal go away. Your wife can't unfvck those men and woman/women. The real questions you should be asking are: Can I forgive my wife? This is different from reconciliation. Can I reconcile with my wife after this? Making this decision often takes time. Would it be better if I forgive my wife after a divorce? Sometimes we just can't live with the source of our pain.

She lied to you, big time. I think Bandit argued that biblically fornication is a type of adultery against a future spouse. I know in your case divorce is a much better choice than adultery. There's *never* a good reason for infidelity or adultery.


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## Dogbert

Kevin there is no way that infidelity would make your wife feel anything but contempt towards you and rightly so. Then it would be you who would have rightly earned the title of POS of the year. There would be no way in Hell to recover the moral high ground once you commit adultery.

You want to hurt your wife the way she did to you? then go ahead and divorce her. That would send a clear message to her about the price of lying and deceiving to make a man marry her. And unlike adultery, your integrity would be intact.


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## Nucking Futs

Kevin, I don't know what flavor of Christianity you practice, but if you're catholic you have grounds for annulment.



> Fraud (Canon 1098) Reasons for Marriage Annulment
> You or your spouse was intentionally deceived about the presence or absence of a quality in the other. The reason for this deception was to obtain consent to marriage.


You do not have grounds to screw other women, catholic or not. Do not have sex with any other women until your divorce is final. Not planning to divorce? No sex with other women.


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## kevin1986

Dogbert said:


> Kev, I'm no Casanova or Don Juan, but I've had my small share of women I was sexually involved in the past. Take it from me, sex without an emotional connection is nothing more than two people masturbating each other. It doesn't even compare to the sex you can have with a woman you love and who loves you in return. I would trade all my past sexual experiences in a heartbeat, for a loyal and loving woman any day of the week.


now that you have had many sexual escapeds its easy for you to make that choice
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt

Kevin has yet to answer my question. WWJD?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 2asdf2

kevin1986 said:


> *I still love my wife* and i have not renounced my faith, but she enjoyed her sleeping around and for your information she did cheat on her ex boyfriend that i know because has revealed alot since all this happened. She cheated on her ex because he was also cheatong on her, now am the bad guy now because i want to experience what she said was just sex? I mean if i forgive her and move on wont that make me look weak? And she made a statement that bugged me yesterday she said i was a nice guy, what does that mean? SO she can screw around with bad boys and settle with the nice guy?????
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





kevin1986 said:


> Oh just because i was a devout christian teen, that means i was shy and passive??? man you dont know me at all. Me wanting to sleep around now is so that my wife understands how much she hurt me. I could have slept around in my teens, but i CHOOSE not to. I have also lied to my wife some one very close to her made moves on me years back from her circle of friends, the same friend who started the discussion about ex lovers at her home town. The same who suggested to me a few days ago that if i slept around i would understand. This is the same woman who my wife had a 3 some with, i cant explain every single thing i have found out these past few weeks its too much. My wife has 4 good friends and she is the only one who is married all her friends are always changing men like shoes so i was bound to find out about her past. i will not divorce her but *she should also know how it feels for her man to be shared by other women*_Posted via Mobile Device_



What a loving thought!


----------



## kevin1986

If i divorce her she will take my kid and why should i go through that also? I will go with her to therapy, no idea if it will help, but i cant promise her anything right now. And for most women sex is not just sex they get attached emotionally.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EleGirl

kevin1986 said:


> I still love my wife and i have not renounced my faith, but she enjoyed her sleeping around and for your information she did cheat on her ex boyfriend that i know because has revealed alot since all this happened. She cheated on her ex because he was also cheatong on her, now am the bad guy now because i want to experience what she said was just sex? *I mean if i forgive her and move on wont that make me look weak?* And she made a statement that bugged me yesterday she said i was a nice guy, what does that mean? SO she can screw around with bad boys and settle with the nice guy?????


So all of this is about you looking weak? Ego?

You will look weak if you cheat. It's called 'revenge affairs'. Weak people have them in an attempt to make themselves feel better. They think it will make the score even.

If you do this you will find out that not only are things not even, but you will suffer. It's not going to fun and games. people who have affairs usually end up hating themselves for it.

One of the reasons that you cheating now will not make things even, is that your wife did not cheat on you. You cheating will not even the score, it will bring the level of damage up by magnitudes. 

Your wife will probably divorce you if you cheat. Why? Because you did it purposely to harm her.

Perhaps this is a test of your faith and so far you are not doing very well at this test. Now I understand that when people are hurt they think of all kinds of wild things to try to settle it all in their heads. But if you act on this and go out and cheat, you will fail the test of your faith.

.


----------



## Dogbert

kevin1986 said:


> And for most women sex is not just sex they get attached emotionally.


Exactly and for this reason probably your wife had sex with those men before she met you. She looked at sex as a way to receive love. Unfortunately, this only attracted men who wanted to user her as a fvck buddy and wanted nothing more from her. For this reason if you were to get involved with another woman, the chances are good that she would want an exclusive emotional/physical connection with you.


----------



## tears

I didn't read the entire thread but your last response about your wife's friend had me thinking about the very real possibility that she's fishing and trying to poison the well at the same time.

She was the friend who came on to you strongly.
She brought up their past at a time when you were conveniently present. 
She suggested that you cheat - a not so subtle signal of her availability. 

Yes, your wife lied to you. That was disrespectful of her. She was also afraid about you finding out because she knew you'd react strongly and she was not disappointed on that count.

I'm not saying that you're not justified in your anger and sense of betrayal. You might want to consider the fact that your wife may never open up to you from here on out because she would always fear your reaction.

And if you're afraid of how you measure up to the ghosts of her past, let me tell you that a woman will have the best sex of her life with the man who can make her feel desired and make her feel safe enough to open up completely and utterly. 

You can still be angry with her and express it in ways that would not end up with you trashing something good and leaving a trail of broken hearts. Please don't do something that could make the situation worse


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## Plan 9 from OS

Kevin, you do not sound like a devout Christian. It sounds like you regret not sleeping around before marriage.

Does she give you the same sexual attention that she gave her former BF's? That's one key way to figure out if she thinks you're a nice guy for security and not someone to be desired.


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## EleGirl

Divinely Favored said:


> BTW did you ever find out if the 3some was 2 men or man/woman. If it was with 2 men i do not believe it was her 1st and only time for 3 some.


Why do people do this? You know little to nothing about his wife as do other posters. But that does not stop posters from making exaggerated claims of what that poster knows must be the truth... some wild assumption.

But that does not stop you from assuming that if she had one 3some, she had to have had more than one. Basically accusing her of being very immoral and having no control over it.

Why on earth would a woman having one mfm 2some mean that she's automatically had many of them? There are a lot of people who try threesomes once and find out that they are not what they are said to be. From what I've read, outside of porn films, they can be totally not good at all.


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## ConanHub

Gotta say Kev. Dealing with your wife and her shyt is one thing. But screwing around and committing adultery is against your God. You can deal with your wife and her treachery without becoming a scumbag to do it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl

badkarma2013 said:


> You mentioned above...the book "Surviving Infidelity"...
> Have I missed something...Did not his wifes actions happen BEFORE they were married...If they did how is that Infidelity??
> ***********************************************************************************
> He wonders if it is really the case for his wife (and all women) Alpha for fvcks, Beta for bucks? Did she really do that to him? In the Nice Guy world, sex = love. She just destroyed both sex and love for him...
> 
> I am [email protected] sorry to say most of the time that is the case...and i say that for alot of BHs here..


So now most women go out and have wild sex with 'bad boys' and than marry 'nice guys' for the bucks???? Am I really reading this nonsense?

If most women marry nice guys for the big bucks, they sure made a mistake... because most married people do not have much money. Most married women work and contribute considerably to the household finances.

Few women have wild sexual pasts with bad guys.

There are some women who do have wilder sexual pasts who end up marrying guys who are not 'bad guys'. The reason is not the money. The reason is that these women find out that the 'bad guys' are truly 'bad guys'. They are charming narcissistic users of women. These women realize at some point that these sorts of men are not worth their love because 'bad guys' will only destroy their lives and their love.

Why the need to portray most women as slvts who just marry men for money (the money most men do not even have)?


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## SecondTime'Round

You're right that it would suck having to share your child. It is not at all fun, and is very hard on kids. 

So, these are your options:

1. Divorce your wife and release her to find someone who accepts her, flaws and all, and release yourself to either stick to your beliefs about pre-marital sex, or throw those beliefs away and start screwing around. You'll have to share your child.

2. Throw your beliefs away, have an affair, deal with the repercussions of her divorcing you. You'll have to share your child.

3. Stay with her and remain faithful, but make her life a living hell by letting her know how disgusted you are with her. She'll eventually divorce you. You'll have to share your child.

4. Mean it when you say you a. love her, and b. have forgiven her for lying. Have an open mind and heart to therapy. Check your ego and realize that the best way to make her regret all of her past lovers is to be the most amazing man she could ever, and will ever need. Women don't keep a mental checklist of past lovers and measure the current lover against them. Unless of course they're treating her poorly emotionally.....it's THEN that she will start reminiscing. Be the man she decided made it worth it not have sex with anyone else for the rest of her life. With this option, you don't have to share your child.


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## ConanHub

EleGirl said:


> So now most women go out and have wild sex with 'bad boys' and than marry 'nice guys' for the bucks???? Am I really reading this nonsense?
> 
> If most women marry nice guys for the big bucks, they sure made a mistake... because most married people do not have much money. Most married women work and contribute considerably to the household finances.
> 
> Few women have wild sexual pasts with bad guys.
> 
> There are some women who do have wilder sexual pasts who end up marrying guys who are not 'bad guys'. The reason is not the money. The reason is that these women find out that the 'bad guys' are truly 'bad guys'. They are charming narcissistic users of women. These women realize at some point that these sorts of men are not worth their love because 'bad guys' will only destroy their lives and their love.
> 
> Why the need to portray most women as slvts who just marry men for money (the money most men do not even have)?


Not saying that necessarily happened in this case but it does happen often.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EleGirl

kevin1986 said:


> If i divorce her she will take my kid and why should i go through that also? I will go with her to therapy, no idea if it will help, but i cant promise her anything right now.


If you divorce her, she will not take your kid. You will each have your child about 50% of the time. 

Do not stay just because of your child. Think of how your child would feel if at age 18 he found out that you stayed in misery with your wife for whom you have such bile as you do now. It's basically putting the responsibility for your misery on your child. Forget that.



kevin1986 said:


> And for most women sex is not just sex they get attached emotionally.


This is a myth. Take it from a woman. I'm sure that just about every woman here will agree with this.

Women are as capable as men for having sex with no emotional attachment. Who do you think all the men are who are having non-emotional sex with are having it with? Women who are not emotional about that sex.

Women become emotionally attached with men who they have repeated sex with AND who they have feelings of love for.


----------



## EleGirl

ConanHub said:


> Not saying that necessarily happened in this case but it does happen often.


The person who I quoted said that if his wife one mfm, them she had many. So yes some did say that it did happen. Someone felt that it was important to tell the OP that he knows for a fact that the OP's wife had many mfm because as he stated, if she's had one, she's had many.


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## tacoma

Elegirl,

Sometimes it seems you are the only voice of reason in this place.


----------



## turnera

kevin1986 said:


> Me wanting to sleep around now is so that my wife understands how much she hurt me.


Wow, aren't YOU the loving, Christian man?

Sheesh.

Unloving and LYING, to boot.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

So what your deciding is to make the equation to go cheating on your wife to balance her past experience. If she then decides to cheat on you in return, and she goes for numbers, watch her blow you out of the park if she wanted to.

There are chances you could fall in love with another sexual partner, so why should she be the only one taking risks. People normally do not form attachment as you believe from sex. There could be an attachment formed when strangers sleep together, but the bond lasts for such a short period that in a couple of hours it is usually gone. Prolong sex can keep building on that bond. But here is the thing, all bonds fade over time. It is like a path, and if it is not used enough, the surrounding fauna will reclaim it, making it just a faint memory.

Divorce or not. If she is not what you want as your partner anymore, then leave. You can probably get good terms for custody while she is feeling guilt for her deception. If you do decide to cheat, just watch things go more complicated. I personally would not blame her for cheating on you in return if you do, and she has her pick of men to do it. If you want to try out other women, then ask her if it would help your fragile ego. And I think that this is mostly about your ego, not your beliefs. You are pushing your beliefs aside for your own ego and pride. You vaunt of how you followed your faith, but when it gets tough, you can push it aside.

If her flaws are more than you can accept, then let her go. She will probably gain wisdom from this and learn. She could be happy again. There is probably a guy outt there who does not care about her past, but the person she is now. You can be happy without your wife either. If you both learn from this, you both can find someone else.


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## SecondTime'Round

Mr.Fisty said:


> So what your deciding is to make the equation to go cheating on your wife to balance her past experience. If she then decides to cheat on you in return, and she goes for numbers, watch her blow you out of the park if she wanted to.
> 
> There are chances you could fall in love with another sexual partner, so why should she be the only one taking risks. People normally do not form attachment as you believe from sex. *There could be an attachment formed when strangers sleep together, but the bond lasts for such a short period that in a couple of hours it is usually gone. Prolong sex can keep building on that bond. But here is the thing, all bonds fade over time. It is like a path, and if it is not used enough, the surrounding fauna will reclaim it, making it just a faint memory.*
> 
> Divorce or not. If she is not what you want as your partner anymore, then leave. You can probably get good terms for custody while she is feeling guilt for her deception. If you do decide to cheat, just watch things go more complicated. I personally would not blame her for cheating on you in return if you do, and she has her pick of men to do it. If you want to try out other women, then ask her if it would help your fragile ego. And I think that this is mostly about your ego, not your beliefs. You are pushing your beliefs aside for your own ego and pride. You vont of how you followed your faith, but when it gets tough, you can push it aside.
> 
> If her flaws are more than you can accept, then let her go. She will probably gain wisdom from this and learn. She could be happy again. There is probably a guy outt there who does not care about her past, but the person she is now. You can be happy without your wife either. If you both learn from this, you both can find someone else.


This, all of this.

But I bolded the part I hadn't read here before and was trying to figure out how to verbalize.


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## ConanHub

EleGirl said:


> The person who I quoted said that if his wife one mfm, them she had many. So yes some did say that it did happen. Someone felt that it was important to tell the OP that he knows for a fact that the OP's wife had many mfm because as he stated, if she's had one, she's had many.


Agree there. I was saying that often, a woman leads a wild sexual life and then picks someone "safe" to marry.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SecondTime'Round

ConanHub said:


> Agree there. I was saying that often, a woman leads a wild sexual life and then picks someone "safe" to marry.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hmmm. I can only think of one person who led a wild sexual life and then ended up with a "safe" person, but it was because she, too, had learned from her mistakes and become "safe," too, and he was man enough to accept all of her past. They are still happily married now and currently on their 20th year anniversary vacation. She had quite the history, but she didn't choose him because of his "safeness." She chose him because she had truly changed. And thankfully he's a great forgiver .

(I do think she was very honest about her past, so to the OP, don't flip out that I'm relating this experience to your particular situation. Although these are devout Christians I'm talking about.)


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## Blondilocks

The OP's posts indicate that the threesome was not 2 men & his wife. It was his wife, her female friend & a man.


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## Q tip

ConanHub said:


> Agree there. I was saying that often, a woman leads a wild sexual life and then picks someone "safe" to marry.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


my W and I know a party girl like this (with the personality and figure you would only dream of). shes now middle aged and looking for a rich nice guy to settle down with.

there are no takers. guys arent stupid. well, enough arent. why would some rich guy be assumed to want a high mileage GF. none i know do.


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## Divinely Favored

[QU,OTE=badkarma2013;11826297]


Divinely Favored said:


> Don't cheat...."Do not repay evil for evil" If you feel you must go there, you have biblical grounds for divorce due to her sexual immorality (multiple partners and 3 some while claiming to be virgin). Divorce then if you can remarry after some time. At least by then the marriage will be on equal footing as hopefully you can no longer feel justified/anger in holding her previous partners against her. Or you may find someone else who better lines up with your own personal sexual morality.
> 
> BTW did you ever find out if the 3some was 2 men or man/woman. If it was with 2 men i do not believe it was her 1st and only time for 3 some.



******************************************************

Whoa..Did not her actions happen BEFORE they were Married..If it happened before there is NO BIBLICAL grounds for Divorce..

For she is due the same REDEMPTION as all of us...[/QUOTE]

i did some research on this very subject and it Concluded prIor sexual immorality includes incestuous relationships, beastiality and not being a virgin but claiming to be a virgin are all biblical grounds for divorce not just adultry.


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## Ripper

OP has pretty much jumped the shark at this point.

He has every reason to be pissed and to consider divorce, but how do you go from wanting a virgin bride to banging everything that moves and committing infidelity? If values are so important, divorce or work on getting to acceptance and forgiveness. This looking for an excuse to cheat and be vindictive is getting pathetic.


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## turnera

kevin1986 said:


> its not fair, she duped me into marrying her.


Wow. That's quite a statement. Must be hard to breathe up there.


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## Divinely Favored

badkarma2013 said:


> By the Biblical law, Kevin has every right to divorce his wife because she tricked him into marriage through misrepresentation. Doesn't matter how good a wife she has been since.
> 
> ******************************************************
> 
> What Law from what Bible...is that???.....SHE LIED...and it was BEFORE they were married...I should say if you and I looked into EVERY relationship and Marriage we have been involved with ...EVERYBODY Lied...."I saw you with your ex..do you still love him..No honey hes just a friend..LIE and I could go on for days..
> 
> WE kept right on going with it...This happened BEFORE they were married...we all are conned...men EXPECT sex after marriage...10 years later how many live in a sexless marriage.....CONNED...They have a child and his wife goes to sh*t and basically just lays down....Conned and I could go on and on.....
> 
> Point is we ALL LIE..You and I as well...and again it was Before they were married ...If we all played by your BIBLICAL RULES ...EVERYONE OF US would be due our pound of flesh...Badkarma


King James Edition


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## Blondilocks

Well, she did.


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## SecondTime'Round

Divinely Favored said:


> [QU,OTE=badkarma2013;11826297]
> 
> 
> ******************************************************
> 
> Whoa..Did not her actions happen BEFORE they were Married..If it happened before there is NO BIBLICAL grounds for Divorce..
> 
> For she is due the same REDEMPTION as all of us...


* i did some research on this very subject and it Concluded prIor sexual immorality includes incestuous relationships, beastiality and not being a virgin but claiming to be a virgin are all biblical grounds for divorce not just adultry.*[/QUOTE]

All very open to interpretation in my (raised as a Christian conservative my whole life) opinion.


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## bigfoot

Because you thread has so many undertones, I have a wide ranging reply. I say it with respect, so please don't be offended.

How do you start of saying you are real religious and that drives your life and yet you are positing the idea that you should commit adultery and fornication because your wife had premarital sex before you knew her and did not tell you about it? That is illogical. If your issue is religious, then I would suggest that your solution would be found there, but that is not the real issue.

If your issue is that your wife had sex and now you feel like you may not measure up to her past experiences, then focus on that. If your issue is that you feel like you need to "even the score" by having as many sexual partners or the same sexual experiences as your wife did, then deal with that and say that. Doing that will end so badly that I can only say, don't do it. There is nothing quite so repulsive as looking at yourself in the mirror after being with someone that you know you should never have been with. The self loathing is unbelievable. I was shocked when it happened to me. I got with a young lady and I can only tell you, I felt like crying afterwards. I'm one of those "men don't cry types" so you can imagine how I felt.

By the way, if wild monkey sex made for a great relationship and life long partnership... well I can't even finish the sentence because it does not. I know a whole bunch of men who have been with a whole bunch of women who did everything you could imagine, but they never married them. heck, more women are complaining about their men not wanting to sleep with them because the men have found porn and real life can't compete with that. My point is that a relationship is so much more than sex.

I once came across a discussion about the best orgasm that anyone ever had. I gotta tell you, few people said it was with their spouse/SO. A significant bunch of people said it was with themselves. An O is about what, maybe 10 seconds? What happens the other 23 hours and 59 minutes and 50 seconds? Thinking about that O? Nope. I have a female friend who has told me her wildest sexual exploits and guess what, she's not with, nor does she miss any of the people that they were with. Top of the list of things she wants, a good relationship. As she says, "I can teach anyone to push my buttons, but I can do it better than anyone I've met. I need someone to share my life with." Trust me when I say that she has done everything that you can imagine. Heck, I had to ask for the definition of a few things she mentioned. Use that to put your wife's issues into perspective.


I am so ridiculously familiar with religion and chastity issues that it is not even funny. Your problem does not sound remotely like a spiritual crisis. It sounds like a self esteem issue. Get to a counselor and deal with that.


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## Plan 9 from OS

turnera said:


> Wow. That's quite a statement. Must be hard to breathe up there.


To be fair, kevin's right. He was duped by her. According to his posts, they had the convo about sexual pasts and what he was looking for, and she lied thru her teeth. He's 100% in the right to be upset about that. But...he's now talking about revenge sex with other people and that puts him completely in the wrong. Not only that, what he might do is worse than what his wife did with the lying.


----------



## Divinely Favored

EleGirl said:


> Divinely Favored said:
> 
> 
> 
> BTW did you ever find out if the 3some was 2 men or man/woman. If it was with 2 men i do not believe it was her 1st and only time for 3 some.
> 
> 
> 
> Why do people do this? You know little to nothing about his wife as do other posters. But that does not stop posters from making exaggerated claims of what that poster knows must be the truth... some wild assumption.
> 
> But that does not stop you from assuming that if she had one 3some, she had to have had more than one. Basically accusing her of being very immoral and having no control over it.
> 
> Why on earth would a woman having one mfm 2some mean that she's automatically had many of them? There are a lot of people who try threesomes once and find out that they are not what they are said to be. From what I've read, outside of porn films, they can be totally not good at all.
Click to expand...

with a girlfriend and another I could see with experimenting but I would think a woman who has never done this would be scared to jump in with two men for the first time. the fact it was the girl friend to me makes it easier to get over, but that girlfriend would no longer be in the circle as she helped to keep it secret. 

If she were looking for a mate instead of saying it was just sex I feel it would be easier to get over...being he does not want divorce. I hope they can get past it but she needs to realize what she has done. The sisters need to but out or they may find they are no longer welcome at his house.

Kevin I was at the alters this morning praying the Lord will take the mental anguish and your wife will forever continue to help you heal from this.


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## turnera

Plan 9 from OS said:


> To be fair, kevin's right. He was duped by her. According to his posts, they had the convo about sexual pasts and what he was looking for, and she lied thru her teeth. He's 100% in the right to be upset about that. But...he's now talking about revenge sex with other people and that puts him completely in the wrong. Not only that, what he might do is worse than what his wife did with the lying.


I'm not saying he shouldn't be upset about the lying. Although I will say that given the double standard still rampant, more women lie than don't. I did, because I told the truth to my previous fiance who then proceeded to shame/torture/blame/demand from me every time he didn't get his way, and used my honesty about who I'd had sex with to do it. So I have never told my H the truth. Not that I was a hooker or anything, but he's never been told my past; when asked, I gave a very vague answer and changed the subject.

What I'm saying is that for him to blast her to pieces for that, to intimate that she's some sort of devil for it, and THEN go on to say he wants to go out whoring and THEN say it's ONLY to hurt her, when it's pretty evident HE is now lying...


----------



## EleGirl

Divinely Favored said:


> with a girlfriend and another I could see with experimenting but I would think a woman who has never done this would be scared to jump in with two men for the first time.


Women do jump into mfm apparently. While I don't think that many women engage in mfm or wmw, some do. And some only do mfm. so yes they just jump into it. 



Divinely Favored said:


> the fact it was the girl friend to me makes it easier to get over, but that girlfriend would no longer be in the circle as she helped to keep it secret.


I would agree with this. Apparently this female "friend" of the wife's has hit on the OP in the past. He was not honest with his wife and did not tell her something that she needed to know.. that her 'friend' is not a friend of their marriage. The 'friend' is after her husband.

At this point it sounds like the 'friend' had anterior motives for telling the OP about his wife's sex life. I can see one of two motives, and maybe both: 1) to let the OP know that it's ok to have sex with the 'friend' 2) to break of the OP wife's marriage as she is jealous.

Now, people on this thread of speculated that it was the men who had sex with the OP's wife who told him about her sex life and that they did it to laugh at him. I find this interesting: 1) that this is the assumption men made, that it was to laugh at him. 2) that the OP did not clarify that this is not what happened.


----------



## altawa

turnera said:


> I'm not saying he shouldn't be upset about the lying. Although I will say that given the double standard still rampant, more women lie than don't. I did, because I told the truth to my previous fiance who then proceeded to shame/torture/blame/demand from me every time he didn't get his way, and used my honesty about who I'd had sex with to do it. So I have never told my H the truth. Not that I was a hooker or anything, but he's never been told my past; when asked, I gave a very vague answer and changed the subject.
> 
> What I'm saying is that for him to blast her to pieces for that, to intimate that she's some sort of devil for it, and THEN go on to say he wants to go out whoring and THEN say it's ONLY to hurt her, when it's pretty evident HE is now lying...


Or he has had his WHOLE world knocked for a major loop and can't think straight on the situation. How many BS's here wanted revenge when they found out? I would venture to say lots.


----------



## SecondTime'Round

altawa said:


> Or he has had his WHOLE world knocked for a major loop and can't think straight on the situation. How many BS's here wanted revenge when they found out? I would venture to say lots.


I do agree with this.

But now is the time he has to really attempt to think clearly, as difficult as it might be.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

turnera said:


> I'm not saying he shouldn't be upset about the lying. Although I will say that given the double standard still rampant, more women lie than don't. I did, because I told the truth to my previous fiance who then proceeded to shame/torture/blame/demand from me every time he didn't get his way, and used my honesty about who I'd had sex with to do it. So I have never told my H the truth. Not that I was a hooker or anything, but he's never been told my past; when asked, I gave a very vague answer and changed the subject.
> 
> What I'm saying is that for him to blast her to pieces for that, to intimate that she's some sort of devil for it, and THEN go on to say he wants to go out whoring and THEN say it's ONLY to hurt her, when it's pretty evident HE is now lying...


There's a difference between not telling someone the extent of your sexual escapades and telling someone that he/she is a virgin when in reality they have done things sexually that the majority of people never partake in (3some, for example). The former still acknowledges that you have a sexual past while the latter states you have zero experience with sex when in reality you have quite a bit of experience.


----------



## Blondilocks

Turnera, I think you'll admit that there is a big difference in telling someone that 'yes, I've been sexually active but I'm not giving specifics' vs. 'no, I'm as pure as the driven snow'.

I don't think Kevin is really considering cheating. It seems more of a blowing off steam and wanting to at least try & get her to acknowledge that she put him in a world of hurt. Her downplaying how very important this was to him is insulting & hurtful to him.

She needs to be begging with tears & snot running down her face and not saying 'it was just sex' (essentially, get over it).


----------



## Dogbert

turnera said:


> I'm not saying he shouldn't be upset about the lying. Although I will say that given the double standard still rampant, more women lie than don't. I did, because I told the truth to my previous fiance who then proceeded to shame/torture/blame/demand from me every time he didn't get his way, and used my honesty about who I'd had sex with to do it. So I have never told my H the truth. Not that I was a hooker or anything, but he's never been told my past; when asked, I gave a very vague answer and changed the subject.


What your ex-fiance did to you was both shameful and disgusting. No woman should tolerate that kind of treatment.

Frankly I've never understood or been impressed with this whole fascination that some men have with the number of women they have had sex with. Since each woman is different, I'd rather be an expert in pleasing one woman than being a novice in pleasing multiple women - Jack of all trades but master of none. I guess in the eyes of other men, I'm nothing but one sick puppy.


----------



## badkarma2013

Originally Posted by altawa View Post
Or he has had his WHOLE world knocked for a major loop and can't think straight on the situation. How many BS's here wanted revenge when they fond out? I would venture to say lots.

Whose the BS???...THIS HAPPENED BEFORE THEY WERE MARRIED..Their is no BS...

She may have lied about her past but there was NO. BS...

BY your thinking...Let us say you have been married and 15 years later you find out your Husband/WIFE slept with you best friend but never told you...6 months before you are married....You ARE NOT A BS..YOU WERE NOT MARRIED....Hurt ..yes..felt like you were deceived..yes ..mad as a motherfu%ker...yes...BUT NOT a BS..


----------



## Dogbert

kevin1986 said:


> now that you have had many sexual escapeds its easy for you to make that choice
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Perhaps, but you have something that I don't have, a faithful wife. You see, despite all the women I've been with, it didn't prepare me to find a woman who would be faithful and so I married a broken woman. A woman who broke my heart by leading me to believe she was a faithful wife when she was out doing one on one sex and 3somes with another cheating wife. So much for sexual experience, eh Kev?


----------



## Divinely Favored

I think a better example for seeing his pain would be for a woman who wants so much to have children, before she got married she even talked about wanting to have several children and then seven years later she finds out her husband had a vasectomy before they got together and never told her he could not have children.


----------



## badkarma2013

[QU,OTE=badkarma2013;11826297]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Divinely Favored View Post
Don't cheat...."Do not repay evil for evil" If you feel you must go there, you have biblical grounds for divorce due to her sexual immorality (multiple partners and 3 some while claiming to be virgin). Divorce then if you can remarry after some time. At least by then the marriage will be on equal footing as hopefully you can no longer feel justified/anger in holding her previous partners against her. Or you may find someone else who better lines up with your own personal sexual morality.

BTW did you ever find out if the 3some was 2 men or man/woman. If it was with 2 men i do not believe it was her 1st and only time for 3 some.

************************************************** ****

Whoa..Did not her actions happen BEFORE they were Married..If it happened before there is NO BIBLICAL grounds for Divorce..

For she is due the same REDEMPTION as all of us...[/QUOTE]

i did some research on this very subject and it Concluded prIor sexual immorality includes incestuous relationships, beastiality and not being a virgin but claiming to be a virgin are all biblical grounds for divorce not just adultry.


*****************************************************

I wonder how many of you BIBLICAL SCHOLARS ...apply the above passage to MEN as well as this woman...


“When you think yours is the only true path you forever chain yourself to judging others and narrow the vision of God. The road to righteousness and arrogance is a parallel road that can intersect each other several times throughout a person's life. It’s often hard to recognize one road from another. What makes them different is the road to righteousness is paved with the love of humanity. The road to arrogance is paved with the love of self.” 
― Shannon L. Alder


Badkarma


----------



## MattMatt

badkarma2013 said:


> [QU,OTE=badkarma2013;11826297]
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by Divinely Favored View Post
> Don't cheat...."Do not repay evil for evil" If you feel you must go there, you have biblical grounds for divorce due to her sexual immorality (multiple partners and 3 some while claiming to be virgin). Divorce then if you can remarry after some time. At least by then the marriage will be on equal footing as hopefully you can no longer feel justified/anger in holding her previous partners against her. Or you may find someone else who better lines up with your own personal sexual morality.
> 
> BTW did you ever find out if the 3some was 2 men or man/woman. If it was with 2 men i do not believe it was her 1st and only time for 3 some.
> 
> ************************************************** ****
> 
> Whoa..Did not her actions happen BEFORE they were Married..If it happened before there is NO BIBLICAL grounds for Divorce..
> 
> For she is due the same REDEMPTION as all of us...


i did some research on this very subject and it Concluded prIor sexual immorality includes incestuous relationships, beastiality and not being a virgin but claiming to be a virgin are all biblical grounds for divorce not just adultry.


*****************************************************

I wonder how many of you BIBLICAL SCHOLARS ...apply the above passage to MEN as well as this woman...


“When you think yours is the only true path you forever chain yourself to judging others and narrow the vision of God. The road to righteousness and arrogance is a parallel road that can intersect each other several times throughout a person's life. It’s often hard to recognize one road from another. What makes them different is the road to righteousness is paved with the love of humanity. The road to arrogance is paved with the love of self.” 
― Shannon L. Alder


Badkarma[/QUOTE]

:iagree:


----------



## Nucking Futs

Dogbert said:


> Perhaps, but *you have something that I don't have, a faithful wife.* You see, despite all the women I've been with, it didn't prepare me to find a woman who would be faithful and so I married a broken woman. A woman who broke my heart by leading me to believe she was a faithful wife when she was out doing one on one sex and 3somes with another cheating wife. So much for sexual experience, eh Kev?


Only a fool would take the word of a proven liar that she's been faithful and he's the biological father of the child. Polygraph and DNA test are in order, not only to find out if she has started telling the truth but to maybe break through to her that her lies have consequences, in this case ruined trust.


----------



## MattMatt

I think we have a case of "buyer's remorse." 

_"Dear Customer Services. I thought I had ordered a girl as my bride. It seems I was inadvertently sent a woman, instead. Can you please replace her with a girl? Failing that, can you allow me to have adulterous sex with lots of women, instead?

Also, what do I do about the child I created with the woman? Can I send her back, too and exchange her for a puppy?"_


----------



## Dogbert

Nucking Futs said:


> Only a fool would take the word of a proven liar that she's been faithful and he's the biological father of the child. Polygraph and DNA test are in order, not only to find out if she has started telling the truth but to maybe break through to her that her lies have consequences, in this case ruined trust.


An only a fool would ignore the source of the "truth", a woman, supposedly a friend of his wife, who has been trying to seduce him into having an affair. Shouldn't she also be subjected to a polygraph as well?


----------



## Nucking Futs

Dogbert said:


> An only a fool would ignore the source of the "truth", a woman, supposedly a friend of his wife, who has been trying to seduce him into having an affair. Shouldn't she also be subjected to a polygraph as well?


Why? Seriously, he's not contemplating his future with that woman and his wife verified that she's telling the truth, so what would be the point?


----------



## Dogbert

Nucking Futs said:


> Why? Seriously, he's not contemplating his future with that woman and his wife verified that she's telling the truth, so what would be the point?


I'll concede that point to you but what if she accepts and passes the poly and the DNA test results come back that it is his child, what then? It still would not change anything with regard to the past.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Dogbert said:


> I'll concede that point to you but what if she accepts and passes the poly and the DNA test results come back that it is his child, what then? It still would not change anything with regard to the past.


No, it wouldn't change the past, nothing will. However, they both want the relationship to move forward from this. She needs to re-establish his trust, and a passed polygraph that questioned what happened during the marriage and proof that she told the truth about paternity would help. If she fails either test it would prove that she not only lied about the past before marriage, but continued to lie to him during the marriage. If she passes it would not prove that she has not lied to him after the marriage since you can't ask that many questions but it would establish something to build on.

You seem opposed. Why?


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

kevin1986 said:


> I still love my wife and i have not renounced my faith,


So, you are getting a divorce? If not, you are lying.


----------



## Dogbert

Nucking Futs said:


> No, it wouldn't change the past, nothing will. However, they both want the relationship to move forward from this. She needs to re-establish his trust, and a passed polygraph that questioned what happened during the marriage and proof that she told the truth about paternity would help. If she fails either test it would prove that she not only lied about the past before marriage, but continued to lie to him during the marriage. If she passes it would not prove that she has not lied to him after the marriage since you can't ask that many questions but it would establish something to build on.
> 
> You seem opposed. Why?


Nope. Everything you said in this comment is spot on. I had trouble with your earlier post being extremely harsh and non constructive. But this is something I totally agree 100% with and support.


----------



## EleGirl

Nucking Futs said:


> Why? Seriously, he's not contemplating his future with that woman and his wife verified that she's telling the truth, so what would be the point?


His wife's friend has been hitting on him. He never told his wife about this. This too is a form of lying. He should have told his wife that the friend has been hitting on him. 

I'm starting to get the feeling that there is more to this story that he's telling.

How did it happen that the very woman who has tried to get him to have an affair with him is the one who told him about his wife's past?

Why is it that he let us believe that it was the wife's ex sex partner who told him about his wife's past? Was it because he was hiding the fact that it's the woman who wants an affair with him?

I wonder now how they got on the topic of his wife's sexual past.

_wife's 'friend' Sally: "Oh come on Kevin, we'd be so good together. You know it."

Kevin: "I've always thought you are hot. But I cannot do to that to Mrs. Kevin, she's been to good a pure. There is no way I could cheat on her."

Sally: {LOL.. her? Pure? We had 3some with Joe. She had one night stands with Bob... see bob over there, yea him."_

So now Kevin is looking for an excuse to go have sex with Sally who he's had the hots for since before the marriage. But he was too pure and had no excuse to do this in the past... but now he does.

OK, I know that is all my imagination. But how did it happened that the OP was talking to the very woman at the party who has been hitting on him over a long period of time? And how did that conversation turn to his wife's sexual past?

What's the rest of the story?


----------



## EleGirl

Nucking Futs said:


> No, it wouldn't change the past, nothing will. However, they both want the relationship to move forward from this. She needs to re-establish his trust, and a passed polygraph that questioned what happened during the marriage and proof that she told the truth about paternity would help. If she fails either test it would prove that she not only lied about the past before marriage, but continued to lie to him during the marriage. If she passes it would not prove that she has not lied to him after the marriage since you can't ask that many questions but it would establish something to build on.
> 
> You seem opposed. Why?


The problem with this is the poly tests are wrong about 25% of the time. So there is no way of knowing if the results are the truth or not. Suppose she is telling the truth and but the test has the false outcome that she is not. Or visa versa.

why not just throw her in a river in full, long dress with many petty coats. If she drowns she's telling the truth. If she lives, she's lying. That form of lie detecting was used for centuries.


----------



## Dogbert

Kev, why don't you invite your wife to post so that we may get her side of the story?


----------



## altawa

badkarma2013 said:


> Originally Posted by altawa View Post
> Or he has had his WHOLE world knocked for a major loop and can't think straight on the situation. How many BS's here wanted revenge when they fond out? I would venture to say lots.
> 
> Whose the BS???...THIS HAPPENED BEFORE THEY WERE MARRIED..Their is no BS...
> 
> She may have lied about her past but there was NO. BS...
> 
> BY your thinking...Let us say you have been married and 15 years later you find out your Husband/WIFE slept with you best friend but never told you...6 months before you are married....You ARE NOT A BS..YOU WERE NOT MARRIED....Hurt ..yes..felt like you were deceived..yes ..mad as a motherfu%ker...yes...BUT NOT a BS..


You are oversimplifying this, and I think on purpose. I dont understand why people are not seeing that what he is going through right now mirrors exactly what most people go through when they find out their SO cheated on them. So what if it was before marriage....that doesnt change the magnitude of the betrayal perpetrated on him.

People need to get over the 'well, she didnt cheat, so get over it' mindset. There are more ways to hurt and betray a spouse than just cheating.


----------



## altawa

Divinely Favored said:


> I think a better example for seeing his pain would be for a woman who wants so much to have children, before she got married she even talked about wanting to have several children and then seven years later she finds out her husband had a vasectomy before they got together and never told her he could not have children.


I can't get there even with this analogy. She took something from him that he can in no way ever get back: his virginity. He maintained that and gave it to her in the pretense that she was also a virgin.

Not only did she lie, not only did she have that wild past, but she took something from him that he can in no way ever get back, and she did it knowing the whole time she was lying.

The woman in your example can still have kids. She can get a divorce and marry someone else, she can go to a clinic and get fertilized, etc. He can in no way regain his virginity.


----------



## MattMatt

altawa said:


> You are oversimplifying this, and I think on purpose. I dont understand why people are not seeing that what he is going through right now mirrors exactly what most people go through when they find out their SO cheated on them. So what if it was before marriage....that doesnt change the magnitude of the betrayal perpetrated on him.
> 
> People need to get over the 'well, she didnt cheat, so get over it' mindset. There are more ways to hurt and betray a spouse than just cheating.


True. And a 'faithful' spouse can cheat someone out of a good marriage by being callous, indifferent, mean, cruel or just plain horrible.


----------



## Nucking Futs

EleGirl said:


> The problem with this is the poly tests are wrong about 25% of the time. So there is no way of knowing if the results are the truth or not. Suppose she is telling the truth and but the test has the false outcome that she is not. Or visa versa.
> 
> why not just throw her in a river in full, long dress with many petty coats. If she drowns she's telling the truth. If she lives, she's lying. That form of lie detecting was used for centuries.


If she flunks the polygraph and he divorces her she will have lost her marriage as a result of her own actions. This is a marriage that would not have happened but for her deceit, if she loses it now I would not call that injustice. Poor behavior should have consequences.

As for throwing her in the river, you're getting a little dramatic there. Much easier to compare her weight to a ducks.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Dogbert said:


> Kev, why don't you invite your wife to post so that we may get her side of the story?


Reading this thread is likely to be a painful experience for her.


----------



## altawa

MattMatt said:


> True. And a 'faithful' spouse can cheat someone out of a good marriage by being callous, indifferent, mean, cruel or just plain horrible.


Lets see, indifferent/cruel/mean/just plain horrible (IMO) are all checked off on the OP's wife so far. Callous, I would feel would be as well since she still doesnt seem to understand the magnitude of her lies, and doesnt seem to care.

So, I guess she is batting 1000


----------



## MattMatt

altawa said:


> I can't get there even with this analogy. She took something from him that he can in no way ever get back: his virginity. He maintained that and gave it to her in the pretense that she was also a virgin.
> 
> Not only did she lie, not only did she have that wild past, but she took something from him that he can in no way ever get back, and she did it knowing the whole time she was lying.
> 
> The woman in your example can still have kids. She can get a divorce and marry someone else, she can go to a clinic and get fertilized, etc. He can in no way regain his virginity.


His _virginity_? Oh, come on! You are making him sound like Casper the Friendly Milquetoast!:rofl:


----------



## EleGirl

Nucking Futs said:


> As for throwing her in the river, you're getting a little dramatic there. Much easier to compare her weight to a ducks.


I like the river idea... far more dramatic.

And so, how many ducks.. ... oh well...


----------



## MattMatt

altawa said:


> Lets see, indifferent/cruel/mean/just plain horrible (IMO) are all checked off on the OP's wife so far. Callous, I would feel would be as well since she still doesnt seem to understand the magnitude of her lies, and doesnt seem to care.
> 
> So, I guess she is batting 1000


Really? You got all that? Astounding.


----------



## Dogbert

Nucking Futs said:


> Reading this thread is likely to be a painful experience for her.


Not necessarily. There have been spouses who have started their own threads and have agreed to respect each others thread and not to trespass. Bur that's up to Kevin and his wife.


----------



## MattMatt

Dogbert said:


> Not necessarily. There have been spouses who have started their own threads and have agreed to respect each others thread and not to trespass. Bur that's up to Kevin and his wife.


And B1 and EI did a great job of respecting each other's presence here.


----------



## altawa

MattMatt said:


> His _virginity_? Oh, come on! You are making him sound like Casper the Friendly Milquetoast!:rofl:


God forbid he keeps to the tenets of his religion. Way to bash his beliefs though.



MattMatt said:


> Really? You got all that? Astounding.


Yeah. Pretty straightforward. Sorry you cant pick it up (or more accurately, are purposely downplaying and ignoring it because you don't like the OP or his beliefs).


----------



## MattMatt

altawa said:


> God forbid he keeps to the tenets of his religion. Way to bash his beliefs though.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah. Pretty straightforward. Sorry you cant pick it up (or more accurately, are purposely downplaying and ignoring it because you don't like the OP or his beliefs).


You feel I am bashing his beliefs?

Really? If you really think that than there's virtually no point in you bothering to read anything on TAM, because you make up stuff you think you would like to have read.

I was not bashing his religion. On the contrary I am asking him to step up to the crease, tighten his pads, take up his manly stance before the wickets and face the bowler, cricket bat firmly gripped.

In short, I was asking him to live his religion.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## altawa

MattMatt said:


> You feel I am bashing his beliefs?
> 
> Really? If you really think that than there's virtually no point in you bothering to read anything on TAM, because you make up stuff you think you would like to have read.
> 
> I was not bashing his religion. On the contrary I am asking him to step up to the crease, tighten his pads, take up his manly stance before the wickets and face the bowler, cricket bat firmly gripped.
> 
> In short, I was asking him to live his religion.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


His religion clearly values virginity enough that it is grounds for divorce in his church. When discussing her taking that from him under false pretenses, you laugh it off. Yeah, I call that bashing his religion.


----------



## Thor

badkarma2013 said:


> You mentioned above...the book "Surviving Infidelity"...
> Have I missed something...Did not his wifes actions happen BEFORE they were married...If they did how is that Infidelity??


He has suffered a serious breach of trust, equal to a sexual infidelity. Bonus points because it does involve sex, too. Any serious dishonesty needs the same kind of recovery as the recovery from an affair. 




badkarma2013 said:


> He wonders if it is really the case for his wife (and all women) Alpha for fvcks, Beta for bucks? Did she really do that to him? In the Nice Guy world, sex = love. She just destroyed both sex and love for him...
> 
> I am [email protected] sorry to say most of the time that is the case...and i say that for alot of BHs here..


It would appear to be the case here. Though there can be other explanations. But so far I've not seen any evidence otherwise.


----------



## turnera

altawa said:


> Not only did she lie, not only did she have that wild past


Yeah, SHAME on her for having sex _two times_ before marriage. The horror! Might as well sew an A onto her chest.

This thread isn't about her 'wild' past. It's about him wanting to justify having sex with more women while staying married - and getting to blame it on HER.


----------



## itskaren

kevin1986 said:


> hello everyone,
> 
> I wanted to get peoples views on my wife dishonesty about something very important to me, i am a religious young man brought up in a different way from almost all my friends and wifes friends.
> 
> Before my wife and i married we talked about passed relationships and i told her i dated 3 women and never slept with any of them because i do not believe in premarital sex,when i met my wife we where just friends and she new about my beliefs, she didnt belive at first seing that it was easy for me to pick up women and am not the shy type, well what a suprise when she told me she was also saving her self for marriage, but i was looking for more than just her being a virgin i needed to know her heart, after dating for 2 years i new i wanted to marry her because was different from the other women i dated,kind,loving,caring,understanding and to top it off she was a virgin.
> 
> well fast forward we have been married 5 years, with a 4 year old son, last week we went to her home town and i was chatting to her friends who had too many to drink, i found out that my wife had a threesome with the guy who she claimed was nothing but a good friend through out our courtship, she also had a one night stand with another guy who was also at the party. at home i comfronted her about everything and she admitted that she lied because she loved me and she didnt want to be judged by her past. how could she lie to me about something so important to me, why didnt she let me make up my own decision to stay or not? i just need advice on why she did this to me, am not perfect but i have never done anything with anybody sexual not because i couldnt, but because i choose not to, how do i know she doesnt compare me with her past lovers? i dont want to compete with the past. its not fair, she duped me into marrying her.


With the greatest of respect ..GET OVER IT! She is and chose to be married to you. It is not the worst thing that can happen. She has not had an affair! Both my husband and I had previous relationships before we married. This is MY past not his and vice versa. 

I have and never will ask him about his past and I will tell him to ''shove off'' if he asks about mine. If you are a religious as you say you are (which I doubt) by the way you are behaving ... then this is unchristian in my opinion .. Don't you have bigger things to worry about? It seems to me that you are ''trying'' to find fault.


----------



## Nucking Futs

kevin1986 said:


> well because she is trying to convince me that what she did was just sex, and her sisters are also on my case that why am i worried about her past. She is a good woman at heart and thats why it hurts even more. The lie i will get over it, but knowing that *she gave it up to 10 plus men* for free really bugs me
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





turnera said:


> Yeah, SHAME on her for *having sex two times before marriage.* The horror! Might as well sew an A onto her chest.
> 
> This thread isn't about her 'wild' past. It's about him wanting to justify having sex with more women while staying married - and getting to blame it on HER.


So we know she had sex with "10 plus men" according to Kevin. According to Turnera she had sex 2 times prior to marriage. In another post we learn that she had an FMF threesome. Therefore, since we know that one of the two times she had sex prior to marriage was with only one man, and "10 plus" would have to be at least 11 men, the other time she had sex was her taking on at least 10 guys. So it would follow that she either lost her virginity taking on 10 guys in a gang bang or in a threesome with a guy and another chick. That's one quick starter.

So my question is, how sure are you about that 2 times figure Turnera?


----------



## badkarma2013

Thor said:


> He has suffered a serious breach of trust, equal to a sexual infidelity. Bonus points because it does involve sex, too. Any serious dishonesty needs the same kind of recovery as the recovery from an affair.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It would appear to be the case here. Though there can be other explanations. But so far I've not seen any evidence otherwise.


******************************************************
My business partner steals 1.5 million from our company..THAT is a "*breach of trust..." MY WWs has a 8-10 month Fuc*fest with her Boss...That my friend is INFIDELITY.....NO WHERE NEAR the same...If you are not a BS dont bother to comment..

Badkarma


----------



## Nucking Futs

itskaren said:


> With the greatest of respect ..GET OVER IT! She is and chose to be married to you. It is not the worst thing that can happen. She has not had an affair! *Both my husband and I had previous relationships before we married.* This is MY past not his and vice versa.
> 
> I have and never will ask him about his past and I will tell him to ''shove off'' if he asks about mine. If you are a religious as you say you are (which I doubt) by the way you are behaving ... then this is unchristian in my opinion .. Don't you have bigger things to worry about? It seems to me that you are ''trying'' to find fault.


Did he lie to you about it? 

There are two viewpoints about sex at play here. One is the sacred viewpoint, in which a person believes that sex is something special to be shared only in love. The other is the "it's just sex" viewpoint, in which sex is a pleasant physical exercise that can be done without emotions playing into it. People with a sacred view of sex try to find other people with the same view to share their lives with. People who don't share that view think it's silly and so unimportant that just telling a little lie will get you past that and it won't matter.

But it does matter to those with the sacred view. It's part of that persons core beliefs, a foundation they built their life on. It's not some little white lie about something silly. It strikes at the heart of their beliefs.

And when the lies are exposed those without the sacred view are outraged that someone would dare to believe differently than them. It's almost like, if there is someone that would not want you because of the amount of sex you've had in your past, that is a personal insult to you rather than just an incompatibility. Since you feel so insulted that someone with a sacred view would not choose you, you lash out at those who hold that view who come here for help.

The majority of people posting on this thread, and that posted on past similar threads, either can not or will not empathize with someone with the sacred view of sex. People with RJ get more empathy on this board.

I was raised with the sacred view of sex. I discarded that view when I was 15, but I have the back ground and can understand how important it can be to people. That's why I'm trying to help Kevin rather than doing what the majority of posters on this thread are doing, castigating him for his beliefs.


----------



## Nucking Futs

badkarma2013 said:


> ******************************************************
> My business partner steals 1.5 million from our company..THAT is a "*breach of trust..." MY WWs has a 8-10 month Fuc*fest with her Boss...That my friend is INFIDELITY.....NO WHERE NEAR the same...If you are not a BS dont bother to comment..
> 
> Badkarma


1.5 mil? Chump change. You haven't really had your trust breached until you've lost at least 100 mil.

Pretty easy for you to dismiss other peoples pain.


----------



## mupostori

Is your wife a christian ? If so how long has she been a christian ? did she also lie about being a christian considering her behavior 

I suspect you compromised your beliefs and married an unbeliever on the pretext that she was a virgin .


----------



## tacoma

altawa said:


> His religion clearly values virginity enough that it is grounds for divorce in his church. When discussing her taking that from him under false pretenses, you laugh it off. Yeah, I call that bashing his religion.


I find it odd that his religion values fidelity in marriage even more highly than it values virginity before marriage yet he seems willing to ignore that edict fairly easily.

Might lead some to believe this entire ordeal has more to do with his own ego and insecurity than it ever did about religion.

Unless of course the religion itself is about ego and insecurity, that would make the whole thing logical.


----------



## Decorum

tacoma said:


> Might lead some to believe this entire ordeal has more to do with his own ego and insecurity than it ever did about religion.




This has been my view from the beginning. It is a common trap Christians fall into, (been there myself)


My observation is that Christians often either rug sweep out of a misguided sense of compassion or mercy, (usually it's a sublimation of their denial and desire to return to pre discovery), or they get all judgmental/legalistic, again to sublimate pain and find a detached balance.

There is no mandate that Christians be anything other than human in their suffering, just that they make the healthiest choices according to the truth they have, and maintain objectivity and be honest with themselves and others.

Jesus refused the drugged wine, because HE faced the suffering full force and head on, that took enormous honesty, courage and personal integrity, not to mention His own faith perspective.


Suffering hurts and Christians suffer and hurt, that is expected and normal, there are principles to be followed, and hope to be apprehended, but walking it out is very real. It is the failure to recognize our humanity in the name of faith that makes what passes for a "Christian" culture toxic.


Keven, you are in denial and bouncing between anger and bargaining, and of course you are, anyone would be, its just all playing out in a public forum, keep wrestling with it and don't be put off buy all the opinions here, give yourself time.

There are some things that a believer who wants to follow his Lord would begin doing, that would help move you forward, but it would take faith and discipline to do them.

Its not to early, the secular version here goes like this "do the 180, work on yourself, etc etc"

Are you putting into practice any of the disciplines called for when a Christian encounters suffering?

I would be glad to discuss them through PM's if you think it would be helpful.

Regards,
Decorum


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

If you really respect your religious beliefs, divorce her now or see if you can get an annulment. Unless you have proof, theoretical "what ifs" do no count, she has been a loyal wife. Cheating on her is lower than her lie, which I think is EXTREMELY low, because your MARRIAGE VOWS and her loyalty supersedes her past. Yes, even if the vows were made under false pretenses. Your marriage, as it stands, is a covenant under God now. Sickness and health doesn't just mean physical, it is mental and other crises. She isn't a cheater, no matter how betrayed you feel. 

The hypocrisy is killing me, from you and a few others. So, I'm leaving instead of risking a ban.

Good luck Kevin, do the right thing not the emotional one.


----------



## soccermom2three

Elegirl, I knew there was something that smelled wrong with his story.


----------



## Dogbert

soccermom2three said:


> Elegirl, I knew there was something that smelled wrong with his story.


Care to illuminate us olfactory challenged folks?


----------



## Wolfman1968

EleGirl said:


> It sounds like he's pretty clear that he let her know up front that the would drop her if she were not a virgin.


So she lies. She knows HOW MUCH this means to him, and she doesn't give a cr*p about what is important to him. She had no consideration whatsoever for what is important to him. 

Sounds like a selfish piece of garbage.

I don't care at all about this religious debate. It's irrelevant, as far as I am concerned. I see an example of someone who will betray your most important values for selfish reasons. It doesn't matter if anyone agrees with them, all that matters is that someone who supposedly loves you actually is willing to trash what you value so highly. That alone is reason to jettison this person, regardless of any religious issues.

I would not be able to trust that this person woudn't betray me again, if the chips were down and their selfish motives conflicted with what mattered to me.


----------



## Wolfman1968

EleGirl said:


> Keep in mind that she has been an otherwise loving and faithful wife and mother.


Do you know that for sure?

How do you know that?

She lied about this; how many other things may she have possibly deceived him about over the years? In fact, the OP wouldn't have known about this at all if it wasn't for other people. She certainly wasn't going to tell him.


----------



## Wolfman1968

Dogbert said:


> If OP is a christian he should do a WWJD?


Obviously, his wife didn't do a "WWJD" when she lied to him.


----------



## Wolfman1968

Locke.Stratos said:


> *There's nothing that frightens me more in a partner|spouse than the ability to lie and withhold a huge, significant secret and live their everyday life unaffected by it.*
> 
> To anyone that thinks otherwise, *yes this is a huge deal.*
> 
> You have every right to be angry and upset about everything that you've learned and what it entails.
> 
> There are certain aspects of a relationship and a person that we place great value upon. These differ from one person to the next. Some place great value on appearence, others religion and spirituality, education, humour, kindness, virtue, earning potential and shared interests to name a few.
> 
> *Your wife lied to you from the onset about something that she was aware meant a great deal of value to you. You as her boyfriend, fiancé and husband had every right to this knowledge and she willfully kept it from you.*
> 
> Is it about ego and pride? Yes off course, why wouldn't it be? We are prideful and ego driven on occassion. That is on the surface but underneath is a deep layer of hurt and betrayal.
> 
> I would imagine that knowing that you and your wife have only been with each other held special meaning to you and it was pretty romantic and endearing.
> 
> That 'first time' moment that you thought you shared together, didn't happen. The times you've thought and expressed that you were each others' only or that she told you so, false. Every single moment where she proclaimed and expressed this sentiment was a straight up lie from her. She is not the woman that you thought you knew, she didn't change like most on here have experienced. *She kept who she really was from you*.
> 
> Knowing that not only is it not true but that she lied about her life shatters that special bond you thought you shared and reveals her as a person of low moral character with regard to her deception. *What can you trust about what she has told you if she could so easily and casually lie about something so important?*
> 
> I'm not sure what advice to give you, I just what you to know that you have every right to be upset and feel the way that you do.
> 
> Who cares how the topic arose in conversation, people talk. It's a fact of life, that's not the issue.
> 
> 
> She's asking for your forgiveness, I don't even know what that means in a situation like this or how one would go about earning the broken trust back and showing true remorse. It's not in the past, this is information that is affecting you in the present and influencing your emotions and thoughts.
> 
> I would say don't obsess but also do not allow her to sweep this under the rug and behave like what she did is not a big deal.
> 
> How do you want to proceed, what do you think needs to happen and what do you want (to do)?


The bolded areas hit it right on.


----------



## Wolfman1968

Observer said:


> She did not lie to him as a spouse, she lied when they dated about her sexual past. I assume they were young. You are looking at this from a mature person that has gained wisdom from experience. Look at it from a young person who does not understand how a white lie can have repercussions down the road.


It's not a white lie. When it is one of the most important parts of his value systemt, it's A MAJOR, FILTHY BETRAYAL of what is important to him.


----------



## Wolfman1968

Dogbert said:


> Look I'm not saying you don't have a valid reason to be PO because she lied and deceived you about her sexual past and made herself out to be a chaste virgin to avoid you dumping her. Hell you can even divorce her for committing a form of religious fraud and nobody would hold it against you. But please don't equate what she did while not in a committed relationship with what you'd be doing while still married.* Her sin was fornication while yours would be adultery.*


No, her sin was DECEIT and BETRAYAL of her husband by putting her selfish scheme ahead of what her husband values so much.

A Betrayed Spouse is not only someone whose partner has had a physical affair. There are betrayals of finance, loyalty, emotions, etc. You can betray someone in many ways, not just by having an affair. 

She betrayed her husbands value system, beliefs and desires for what he wanted in life. And she lied about it for years, until someone else blew her cover. What kind of person can live a life of that kind of deceit for years with someone you supposedly love?


----------



## Dogbert

Wolfman1968 said:


> No, her sin was DECEIT and BETRAYAL of her husband by putting her selfish scheme ahead of what her husband values so much.
> 
> A Betrayed Spouse is not only someone whose partner has had a physical affair. There are betrayals of finance, loyalty, emotions, etc. You can betray someone in many ways, not just by having an affair.
> 
> She betrayed her husbands value system, beliefs and desires for what he wanted in life. And she lied about it for years, until someone else blew her cover. What kind of person can live a life of that kind of deceit for years with someone you supposedly love?



There is another very important part of the story that is missing from your comments. 

He has stated that he now wants to "separate", not divorce, to play the field and then return to being a married man after he has gotten it out of his system. How interesting that a man who doesn't believe in pre-marital sex, now believes in a one sided open marriage to even the score. 

What kind of person can claim to be deeply religious and then turn around and be willing to betray those beliefs that he has used to define himself simply because now life has handed him a raw deal? What kind of person uses his wife's betrayal to justify a pre-meditated betrayal of God?


----------



## cgiles

Dogbert said:


> What kind of person can claim to be deeply religious and then turn around and be willing to betray those beliefs that he has used to define himself simply because now life has handed him a raw deal? What kind of person uses his wife's betrayal to justify a pre-meditated betrayal of God?


I guess someone deeply hurted in his beliefs and convictions. 

It's hard to imagine how he feels because we have different system of beliefs. 

Some find normal to have a past sexual history. 

He doesn't. 

He kept himself virgin for his wife, and wanted the one he would chose to marry was the same.

She lied to him, because she loved him, and wanted to be with him for the rest of her life. 

She made a selfish choice, the one to lie to him for the rest of their life, for get what she wants.

I suspect Kevin to see his marriage as worthless, he stops to see it as a vows he made in front of his god, because the reason of why this marriage happened, is a lie. 

Like a betrayed spouse discovering its spouse had an affair, he sees now his wife as a stranger, and his marriage has a lie.

He certainly feels dishonoured, and so as lack of honour, he starts to think to reject his values. 

Maybe I'm wrong, but I would not wish to nobody to be in his position.


----------



## old red

kevin, i just have to say that i feel for you. your wife has betrayed you in an horrific fashion.

as for many of the people commenting on this thread, so many of you are projecting your own issues in a shameful manner.

for the insensitive betrayed spouses: your pain which is the result of infidelity is horrendous, no doubt - but here's the news flash, it's not the only gut wrenching pain that is out there. check your arrogance at the door and stop minimizing kevin's sense of betrayal. you sound ridiculous. 

as for the people mocking the seriousness of kevin's pain over losing his virginity under false pretenses (or at least liking the comments which state this), you are demonstrating an awful lack of understanding, and are figuratively 'sinking the boot in' to a man who is already in great pain. you may also being showing your sexism - double standards indeed.

which then leads to many of the women on this thread. the women who can justify the op's wife's lying by citing society's double standards, well, thank goodness i didn't marry a woman like you with your ability to rationalize such selfish deceit. and, as stated above, double standards abound in all sorts of areas, but that doesn't make it okay to betray your marriage partner. kevin deserved honesty, even if the op's wife simply said that the issue of her past was off limits to him. he then would've been able to make a better decision for himself.

kevin, you are hurting and deserve a lot of compassion. sadly, many (not all) of the normally insightful people commenting on your thread are projecting in a pretty obvious way. the way i see it, you feel terribly emasculated, and you want to crush that feeling by taking action. you also want to strike out and give your wife a taste of her own medicine - totally understandable. however, two wrongs don't make a right, despite the anger you are feeling right now. i also think that you will regret committing adultery once the emotional roller coaster changes from anger to something else. some posters on other threads have stated that they opened up their marriage in a one way fashion, telling their partners that they can accept the new status quo or leave. i don't think i could do this, but at least it is an act of honesty. some posters on your thread have stated that as a Christian you should try to forgive her and be a better man. this is a noble and beautiful idea. however, any anger and resentment that you bottle up may come out eventually, even if it's a decade or three later, and this shadow like response will consume you and put you in a mental hell. do you want to deal with that in your advanced years when your options might be much more restricted? i think you need to search deep within yourself and find an answer that addresses your sense of morality and masculinity. despite what you most want in a cerebral sense, your wife's actions may be too offensive for your sense of self to accept. only you can know this. 

i do not envy you. take care.


----------



## Divinely Favored

Dogbert said:


> Wolfman1968 said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, her sin was DECEIT and BETRAYAL of her husband by putting her selfish scheme ahead of what her husband values so much.
> 
> A Betrayed Spouse is not only someone whose partner has had a physical affair. There are betrayals of finance, loyalty, emotions, etc. You can betray someone in many ways, not just by having an affair.
> 
> She betrayed her husbands value system, beliefs and desires for what he wanted in life. And she lied about it for years, until someone else blew her cover. What kind of person can live a life of that kind of deceit for years with someone you supposedly love?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is another very important part of the story that is missing from your comments.
> 
> He has stated that he now wants to "separate", not divorce, to play the field and then return to being a married man after he has gotten it out of his system. How interesting that a man who doesn't believe in pre-marital sex, now believes in a one sided open marriage to even the score.
> 
> What kind of person can claim to be deeply religious and then turn around and be willing to betray those beliefs that he has used to define himself simply because now life has handed him a raw deal? What kind of person uses his wife's betrayal to justify a pre-meditated betrayal of God?
Click to expand...

One who believes she was virtuous, holds in high esteem and loves whole heartedly their spouse and they just found out their spouse has willingly betrayed and deceived them for 7 yrs about something he held in high regard due to core beliefs. And the fact she never held the same values she purported to to gain his hand in marriage.

He is wounded and hurting. He is going to lash out in hurt and anger. I understand your pain Kevin. I waited till I was 22 and lost mine because I was angry at another. It bothers me to this day it was not with a woman i loved. 

I was likewise the good guy who searched for the perfect girl. I had one as a jr. Said she was virgin and some one told her I said some crap about her mother so she dumped me right before prom. Found out later she lied and had had sex with her previous bf.

Thing is Kevin. ...I would go through everything I have ever gone through again to get to the wife I have today. Like wise she states she would go through the childhood abuse and 10 yr marriage to her ex serial cheating husband again to get to me. 

If your wife loves you and you love her....please find your way through this if she can find her remorse to help you heal.

I understand your anger but adultry is not the way to go. Hold the moral high ground and do not give up your values.


----------



## kevin1986

Hit the nail on the head about cheating, i need to re evaluate on that i think rationally , like most said better to divorce than go down that road.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## badkarma2013

Nucking Futs

Nucking Futs's 


Quote:
Originally Posted by badkarma2013 View Post
************************************************** ****
My business partner steals 1.5 million from our company..THAT is a "*breach of trust..." MY WWs has a 8-10 month Fuc*fest with her Boss...That my friend is INFIDELITY.....NO WHERE NEAR the same...If you are not a BS dont bother to comment..

Badkarma
1.5 mil? Chump change. You haven't really had your trust breached until you've lost at least 100 mil.

Pretty easy for you to dismiss other peoples pain.



If YOU can equate someone who has been lied to BEFORE marriage...To A BS whos WS committed Infidelity after 22 years of marriage..for 8-10 month FU*KFEST with her BOSS.

Then I must agree ..your screen name was well chosen...


----------



## turnera

Nucking Futs said:


> So we know she had sex with "10 plus men" according to Kevin. According to Turnera she had sex 2 times prior to marriage.


I could easily have misremembered. I could have sworn I read that he said she'd only had sex with two (or three if there was a threesome) people.


----------



## turnera

Wolfman1968 said:


> So she lies. She knows HOW MUCH this means to him, and she doesn't give a cr*p about what is important to him. She had no consideration whatsoever for what is important to him.
> 
> Sounds like a selfish piece of garbage.


I lied. To protect myself from what I expected from him based on what my previous fiance did to me. Does that make me a selfish piece of garbage? I've stood by my controlling, near-abusive, self-absorbed husband for 35 years, doing 99% of all housework while working full time, 90% of all child raising, 75% of all external housework, traveling with him on his business trips, letting him make all decisions, going on vacations where HE wanted to go, always doing things his way, never standing up to him for 30+ years, making sure all his needs are met...but I lied. When we were dating. About my # of guys before him.

Huh. So this is what a selfish piece of garbage feels like.


----------



## MattMatt

Gosh. We seem to have an overflowing of BACs in this thread. (Burn All Cheaters)

Entertaining, perhaps. But helpful? Not so much.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Kallan Pavithran

old red said:


> *for the insensitive betrayed spouses: your pain which is the result of infidelity is horrendous, no doubt - but here's the news flash, it's not the only gut wrenching pain that is out there. check your arrogance at the door and stop minimizing kevin's sense of betrayal. you sound ridiculous.
> 
> as for the people mocking the seriousness of kevin's pain over losing his virginity under false pretenses (or at least liking the comments which state this), you are demonstrating an awful lack of understanding, and are figuratively 'sinking the boot in' to a man who is already in great pain. you may also being showing your sexism - double standards indeed.*
> 
> 
> i do not envy you. take care.


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:


In many Asian countries men loose their virginity at the age of 25 to 30 that is after getting married.

Same is the case with women. So they consider virginity as a sacred thing. Many men D their spouse when they came to know about their premarital sex. Virginity is a taboo for many men.

Actually many men learn sex with their spouse, so a man who is not experienced in sex having sex with an experienced wife is a different thing. Comparison with old partner, Mocking husband (Even if they don't speak it loud) these are things which can shatter their ego, self respect.


I know a man who divorced his wife because she wasn't a virgin. Many women lies about their virginity as they are well aware of how men values it.

Here OP is also coned into marrying a women who was promiscuous, OP has every right to feel hurt

Many posters seems to mock him for being a Virgin and hurt, is ridiculous. For many the past of their spouse may not be a big deal but for others its a big deal and asking them to get over in a site like this is not good.


----------



## thummper

Kevin, I feel for your situation. When I married my current wife, I knew that she had a sexual past. She never tried to hide anything. Had she done that, I'd have been very disappointed in her. I don't know how I would have reacted to the information. Regardless, we've had a pretty good 30 years together. Have your years with your wife been good ones? Has she loved you with all her heart , been totally faithful, and put you first above everything? Yes, she lied to you, but perhaps she saw in you something she had never believed existed. Perhaps she had seen men as nothing more than selfish pigs with only sex on their minds. Perhaps she felt that ALL men were like that. And then she met you, and you shone out like sunshine on a dreary winter day. She never realized that men like you existed in real life. She wanted to be yours, for you to love and protect her and save her from the empty relationships she had only known before. Only you can know how this will all play out, but please be kind to her. If you can find it in your heart, try to forgive her for her dishonesty. Realize that she did what she did because you were her knight on a white horse come to rescue her. I'm sorry if my comments sound like something out of a cheap romance novel, but real love is pretty rare in this world, not something to be cast aside because of a hurt ego.


----------



## Kallan Pavithran

MattMatt said:


> Gosh. We seem to have an overflowing of BACs in this thread. (Burn All Cheaters)
> 
> Entertaining, perhaps. But helpful? Not so much.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Burn All Cheaters, is the right thing to do, if they are not remorseful, Ready for heavy lifting and do everything to heal their spouse. Why should one waste their life by living in hurt and pain? Why should waste their life being resentful? Why should we live with a person who dont understand us or have any compassion or empathy?

Burn all cheater in this case means get rid off them by divorcing and move on with their life. so that they can find someone who is worthy. 

No one deserve a second chance, Its a gift offered by BS for a truly remorseful wife.

Life is short and plenty of fish in the sea.


----------



## Nucking Futs

badkarma2013 said:


> Nucking Futs
> 
> Nucking Futs's
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by badkarma2013 View Post
> ************************************************** ****
> My business partner steals 1.5 million from our company..THAT is a "*breach of trust..." MY WWs has a 8-10 month Fuc*fest with her Boss...That my friend is INFIDELITY.....NO WHERE NEAR the same...If you are not a BS dont bother to comment..
> 
> Badkarma
> 1.5 mil? Chump change. You haven't really had your trust breached until you've lost at least 100 mil.
> 
> Pretty easy for you to dismiss other peoples pain.
> 
> 
> 
> If YOU can equate someone who has been lied to BEFORE marriage...To A BS whos WS committed Infidelity after 22 years of marriage..for 8-10 month FU*KFEST with her BOSS.
> 
> Then I must agree ..your screen name was well chosen...


I never compared his situation to yours, you're the only one doing that. It's not a contest, it doesn't matter if you think your pain is worse than his pain or he thinks his pain is worse than your pain. 

You need to get your selfishness under control, nothing in this thread is about you.


----------



## jld

turnera said:


> I lied. To protect myself from what I expected from him based on what my previous fiance did to me. Does that make me a selfish piece of garbage? I've stood by my controlling, near-abusive, self-absorbed husband for 35 years, doing 99% of all housework while working full time, 90% of all child raising, 75% of all external housework, traveling with him on his business trips, letting him make all decisions, going on vacations where HE wanted to go, always doing things his way, never standing up to him for 30+ years, making sure all his needs are met...but I lied. When we were dating. About my # of guys before him.
> 
> Huh. So this is what a selfish piece of garbage feels like.


I think you've more than paid the price for it. Your husband deserves to be divorced.


----------



## Thor

EleGirl said:


> His wife's friend has been hitting on him. He never told his wife about this. This too is a form of lying. He should have told his wife that the friend has been hitting on him.


I disagree, depending on circumstances.

One of my wife's close friends from college hit on me in college. We were all pretty drunk at the time. My wife and I were engaged, and this other girl was also engaged. But I had boundaries, so nothing happened. She never hit on me again.

She was a threat that one time, but never since. I was guarding the relationship, so my wife had no need to know afterwards. Had this person hit on me again, then it would be time to let my wife know her friend was not really a friend.


----------



## Thor

badkarma2013 said:


> ******************************************************
> My business partner steals 1.5 million from our company..THAT is a "*breach of trust..." MY WWs has a 8-10 month Fuc*fest with her Boss...That my friend is INFIDELITY.....NO WHERE NEAR the same...If you are not a BS dont bother to comment..
> 
> Badkarma


You don't know sh1t about my situation, and so I will continue to post as I see fit.


----------



## badkarma2013

Thor said:


> You don't know sh1t about my situation, and so I will continue to post as I see fit.


Are you a BS.....???? If you cant or wont answer .Then all of us here have ours...


And you dont know Sh*t about mine either ..jack..


----------



## Thor

So is this a contest of who is hurt more, whose spouse did the worse betrayal? Are you the arbiter of who is permitted to hurt and for what reason, and thus who is permitted to post?

There are few on my ignore list, now +1.


----------



## badkarma2013

Thor said:


> So is this a contest of who is hurt more, whose spouse did the worse betrayal? Are you the arbiter of who is permitted to hurt and for what reason, and thus who is permitted to post?
> 
> There are few on my ignore list, now +1.




As I stated above ...We now ALL have your answer...Thank you for being honest by omission...


----------



## larry.gray

MattMatt said:


> Gosh. We seem to have an overflowing of BACs in this thread. (Burn All Cheaters)
> 
> Entertaining, perhaps. But helpful? Not so much.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What is it that sets you off about this story Matt? Usually you're a decent poster. Insead you mock, ridicule and now throw out straw men.

If you can't be helpful you should at least go away.


----------



## bandit.45

Does Kevin have to divorce his WW? I think he is justified, but it does seem overkill to me. What disturbs me is her seeming lack of empathy, not to mention getting her sisters to gang up on him. 

So how does he "penalyze" her and teach her a lesson without going to the extreme of divorce. All of us veterans here know you cannot teach a person empathy. To me it seems his wife is sorry and embarrassed she got caught, but is not contrite for the lying. 

So how does Kevin get her to feel remorse and validate his pain? 

I don't think she can. She's been living a lie for 10 years. At no time did she feel compelled to tell the truth about her past until her crap friends betrayed her. 

Maybe Kevin could take her to the brink. Maybe he could get in shape, dress nice and go out some random Friday night and stay out at an IHOP until 3 am without answering his phone. Let her stay up pacing the floor wondering where he is and what he's doing. He won't be cheating but it might scare some sense into her. 

I dunno. I think if she doesn't stand up and take responsibility for his pain that this in itself is enough cause to divorce. Just seems like a waste to me.


----------



## SecondTime'Round

bandit.45 said:


> Does Kevin have to divorce his WW? I think he is justified, but it does seem overkill to me. What disturbs me is her seeming lack of empathy, not to mention getting her sisters to gang up on him.
> 
> So how does he "penalyze" her and teach her a lesson without going to the extreme of divorce. All of us veterans here know you cannot teach a person empathy. To me it seems his wife is sorry and embarrassed she got caught, but is not contrite for the lying.
> 
> So how does Kevin get her to feel remorse and validate his pain?
> 
> I don't think she can. She's been living a lie for 10 years. At no time did she feel compelled to tell the truth about her past until her crap friends betrayed her.
> 
> Maybe Kevin could take her to the brink. Maybe he could get in shape, dress nice and go out some random Friday night and stay out at an IHOP until 3 am without answering his phone. Let her stay up pacing the floor wondering where he is and what he's doing. He won't be cheating but it might scare some sense into her.
> 
> I dunno. I think if she doesn't stand up and take responsibility for his pain that this in itself is enough cause to divorce. Just seems like a waste to me.


Remember, we're only hearing Kevin's side of the story.


----------



## norajane

bandit.45 said:


> Does Kevin have to divorce his WW?


She isn't a WW. She didn't cheat on Kevin.



> Maybe Kevin could take her to the brink. Maybe he could get in shape, dress nice and go out some random Friday night and stay out at an IHOP until 3 am without answering his phone. Let her stay up pacing the floor wondering where he is and what he's doing. He won't be cheating but it might scare some sense into her.


She didn't cheat on him, and she didn't make him stay up until 3am wondering where she was and whether she was cheating on him.

I don't see how it is helpful to Kevin and his wife of 5 years, nor their child, for people to be feeding Kevin a lot of fuel to hate on his wife as though she cheated on him.


----------



## norajane

bandit.45 said:


> Okay. What is your solution? Give us some ideas.
> 
> Counseling? Counseling only works when both parties are seeking R. She doesn't seem to think what she did was that bad. So how does counseling help?
> 
> What could work to make this woman begin to empathize with Kevin. Frankly I'm at a loss.
> 
> Throw some ideas out there. Dont just criticize my diction.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He said in his second post that she was asking for forgiveness. Perhaps they should be trying to move in that direction instead of Kevin focusing on how he now wants to spend time having sex with other women while married.

Solution? There isn't a simple one! This one takes time, honest communication, evaluation of what is most important to each of them in their marriage, their goals, their goals for their child...

Since Kev is so religious, I'd suggest seeking some counseling through their church to let their faith help them work through this. I'd suggest marriage counseling to help them talk through this so that his wife does understand how deeply Kevin is hurt and why. 

I'd suggest anything but spending any more time on TAM listening to people insult his wife and telling him he needs to pretend he's cheating on her.

It's not diction. Calling his wife a WW is blatantly incorrect and serves only to muddle the issue at best and inflame it at worst.


----------



## Nucking Futs

norajane said:


> *She isn't a WW. She didn't cheat on Kevin.
> *
> 
> 
> She didn't cheat on him, and she didn't make him stay up until 3am wondering where she was and whether she was cheating on him.
> 
> I don't see how it is helpful to Kevin and his wife of 5 years, nor their child, for people to be feeding Kevin a lot of fuel to hate on his wife as though she cheated on him.


We know two things: Kevin didn't catch her cheating on him, and she is practiced at the art of deception. We do not know that she has been faithful during the marriage.


----------



## tacoma

Nucking Futs said:


> We know two things: Kevin didn't catch her cheating on him, and she is practiced at the art of deception. We do not know that she has been faithful during the marriage.


Some of you guys are off the ****ing rails!


----------



## bandit.45

> It's not diction. Calling his wife a WW is blatantly incorrect and serves only to muddle the issue at best and inflame it at worst.


You and I have different ideas on what wayward means. If she lied about her sexual past and conned Kevin I to marrying her...she was cheating him out of being able to make an informed decision about his life and future, which is what all waywards do when they lie and gaslight. 

Is she an adulterer? No.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## badkarma2013

bandit.45 said:


> You and I have different ideas on what wayward means. If she lied about her sexual past and conned Kevin I to marrying her...she was cheating him out of being able to make an informed decision about his life and future, which is what all waywards do when they lie and gaslight.
> 
> Is she an adulterer? No.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Bandit.45....I love you dude and you helped thru much of my early angst I had after I filed for D from my WW...and I thank you for that...

But Respectfully ...This happened BEFORE they married...she LIED to him agreed ...One can be Hurt.....Feel deceived... yes...and yes mad as a MOTHERFU&KER...i get It....but there is NO BS HERE...as there was no marriage...

Maybe we can just agree to disagree...

Always good to see you post...Badkarma


----------



## soccermom2three

This by far is probably one of the most crazy ass threads I've read here on TAM. I picture most of posters like rabid dogs with frothy mouths typing on their computer with keyboard courage adding their own spin on the story that haven't even been confirmed by the OP. 

I don't believe that the initial post is even real since I've read this exact scenario on this site before. 

Guy marries a virgin, check
Go to party with wife's old friends, check
Drunk friends tell husband of wife's sexual exploits and of course it's always a big one like a threesome or anal, check
He's all butt hurt, check
Get TAM all riled up, check


----------



## Nucking Futs

tacoma said:


> Some of you guys are off the ****ing rails!


You appear to disagree with it, although poorly, like a child. Maybe you could use your words like a big boy and explain what is wrong with my post.


----------



## badkarma2013

soccermom2three said:


> This by far is probably one of the most crazy ass threads I've read here on TAM. I picture most of posters like rabid dogs with frothy mouths typing on their computer with keyboard courage adding their own spin on the story that haven't even been confirmed by the OP.
> 
> I don't believe that the initial post is even real since I've read this exact scenario on this site before.
> 
> Guy marries a virgin, check
> Go to party with wife's old friends, check
> Drunk friends tell husband of wife's sexual exploits and of course it's always a big one like a threesome or anal, check
> He's all butt hurt, check
> Get TAM all riled up, check




LOL I do agree...You seem to have not let go of your grip on sanity here...So my question to you is...What would Soccermom do...or how should one Husband or Wife handle something like this....?

Look forward to your answer.....Badkarma,,


----------



## badkarma2013

Nucking Futs said:


> You appear to disagree with it, although poorly, like a child. Maybe you could use your words like a big boy and explain what is wrong with my post.



Maybe some here think you are:Nucking Futs


----------



## Marduk

kevin1986 said:


> Hit the nail on the head about cheating, i need to re evaluate on that i think rationally , like most said better to divorce than go down that road.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm proud of you, man.

I know it's hard. Damn, I know.

Be true to yourself, not your fears or insecurities. Find that truth and hang onto it no matter what. It will get you out of some dark places.


----------



## Q tip

sounds like this pre-marital activity is an open secret in his culture/society...

for good reason it seems.


----------



## altawa

turnera said:


> Yeah, SHAME on her for having sex _two times_ before marriage. The horror! Might as well sew an A onto her chest.
> 
> This thread isn't about her 'wild' past. It's about him wanting to justify having sex with more women while staying married - and getting to blame it on HER.


No it's not. It is about her LYING to him from the outset about being a virgin, then him finding out that she is about as far from being a virgin as you can get, up to and including group sex.

And, I dont know where you get two times.....I read earlier that she had at least 10 others, as well as the threesome.


----------



## altawa

badkarma2013 said:


> ******************************************************
> My business partner steals 1.5 million from our company..THAT is a "*breach of trust..." MY WWs has a 8-10 month Fuc*fest with her Boss...That my friend is INFIDELITY.....NO WHERE NEAR the same...If you are not a BS dont bother to comment..
> 
> Badkarma


Boy, you have some balls deciding who can and can't respond.


----------



## altawa

tacoma said:


> I find it odd that his religion values fidelity in marriage even more highly than it values virginity before marriage yet he seems willing to ignore that edict fairly easily.
> 
> Might lead some to believe this entire ordeal has more to do with his own ego and insecurity than it ever did about religion.
> 
> Unless of course the religion itself is about ego and insecurity, that would make the whole thing logical.


And, again, I point out that his whole world has been turned upside down. Many a BS here has wanted revenge when they found out, why should he be any different?

What matters is if he actually does it. But, by all means, just keep blowing off his pain and suffering because he is venting and trying to figure out how to get that revenge, even if it isn't right. Just because he is having those thoughts now doesn't mean his beliefs are any less valuable or that he has let them go. It means he is hurting and looking for any way he can to make himself not hurt.

That people refuse to see this and put themselves in his shoes is astounding to me. I don't hold his beliefs, but I damn sure respect them and completely understand where he is coming from with his statements. I hope he doesn't do it, because I have a very binary view of cheaters and don't want to see him put into that group of people. I hope he doesn't do it (for him) so he doesn't trash his values and faith over somebody so not worth it.


----------



## badkarma2013

altawa said:


> Boy, you have some balls deciding who can and can't respond.


You are most welcome to respond...just dont respond to ME...

If you are here and advising Anyone here who is a BS and you are not..About the same as giving medical advice just because you play a Dr. on television...and About as WORTHLESS...

Again if you never been to Beirut...do not play armchair warrior and tell me how you THINK it was...your opinion in that case is about as useless as your advice...


----------



## altawa

badkarma2013 said:


> Nucking Futs
> 
> Nucking Futs's
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by badkarma2013 View Post
> ************************************************** ****
> My business partner steals 1.5 million from our company..THAT is a "*breach of trust..." MY WWs has a 8-10 month Fuc*fest with her Boss...That my friend is INFIDELITY.....NO WHERE NEAR the same...If you are not a BS dont bother to comment..
> 
> Badkarma
> 1.5 mil? Chump change. You haven't really had your trust breached until you've lost at least 100 mil.
> 
> Pretty easy for you to dismiss other peoples pain.
> 
> 
> 
> If YOU can equate someone who has been lied to BEFORE marriage...To A BS whos WS committed Infidelity after 22 years of marriage..for 8-10 month FU*KFEST with her BOSS.
> 
> Then I must agree ..your screen name was well chosen...


When that marriage is BASED on that lie, when she knew full well there would be no marriage if she told the truth and she lied anyway, yeah, I equate it to the betrayal a BS feels when the WW or WH cheats and is found out. You seem to have a mindset that the only people allowed to feel the pain of betrayal are people who were cheated on. You're wrong.


----------



## tacoma

Nucking Futs said:


> You appear to disagree with it, although poorly, like a child. Maybe you could use your words like a big boy and explain what is wrong with my post.


Your (and numerous others) implication that the OP's wife is now under suspicion of infidelity because she lied about her virginity years ago in order to marry him is seriously off the rails.

There is not an iota of evidence to support such an accusation.
By the OP's own statements she's been a good wife during their marriage with no question of infidelity.

The implication in no way aids the OP with his actual problem while causing yet more insecurity and angst.
It threatens his marriage which is the exact opposite of this forums mission.

It's projection at best, asinine at worst.


----------



## Coldie

happy84 said:


> okay, virgin issue. I was a virgin when I slept with my then boyfriend, now husband. For me, he is my only sexual partner. For him, he had quite some number of girls before me. And with his 'street smart', his 'street' mentality, his 'street' lifestyle. Virgin can be an immediate turn off, possibly deal breaker for him.
> 
> I know if I told hubby I'm a virgin, there a possibility he would dump me on the spot. But I love him, I can't lie to him. I told him flat out when he initiate sex. So if he wants to run, then please run quick. I will not pretend to be a sexually experience girl just to trick him to stay with me.
> Fortunately, he didn't run. We slept together, continue dating and now married.
> 
> Boy, I don't know how can a virgin fake to be a sexually experience girl. No way I can fake that to my husband.
> I don't know how can a sexually experience, love sex woman like OP wife can fake be a virgin to him. Perhaps starfish sex?
> 
> But I'm willing to make a bet, if at that time OP know his wife wasn't a virgin. OP still would married her, seem like he loves his wife very much. OP already thinking of propose, and spend the rest of his life with her after short time of dating.
> 
> Seriously people, don't based your marriage on a LIE. I don't know how can any women/men do this, it just plain out SELFISH.
> A marriage based on a LIE to maintain, then where is the real happiness in it?
> 
> It doesn't matter that we only hear OP side of the story. Freaking, his wife purposely LIE to him, trick him into marriage. This is a marriage based on a LIE to maintain for 10 years.
> Good luck to you OP in what ever decission you choose.


Street smart or not, No-one runs from a virgin...after you find out the truth years later. If a woman lied about not being a virgin and years later said she told her husband she actually was, that wouldn't destroy a marriage. That would do nothing but flatter the husband. This actually happens a lot, tbh. A man or woman years later wants their spouse to feel special, so they mentally block out their past and try to give their soul mate their "virginity." "You took my virginity, I lied about all my experiences because I thought you wouldn't like me if you knew I didn't know what I was doing." This happens A LOT. Whether they both know it's not the truth and prefer to erase history this way, or the woman / man does it on his own to make his/her spouse feel extremely special.

However, that is not comparable to a woman saying she was a virgin, then years later the husband finds out she had threesomes and had sex with all kind of guys. The relationship is based off a lie, and although she didn't "cheat" on him, she cheated him. He was cheated from being able to make a decision on the type of woman he wanted to be with.

If you lie once, who knows how many other times she will lie to keep her husband from having bad thoughts about her. Untrustable imo. Everything was based off a lie and unless teh wife can figure out how to reestablish trust, she should expect to be left (like he would have left her had he known the truth from the beginning -- except now he knows the truth, AND knows she is a liar too) Maybe in her next relationship she will be honest up front so this doesn't happen again.


----------



## tacoma

Coldie said:


> Street smart or not, no-one runs from a virgin.


Speak for yourself, I would never have even considered marrying a virgin.

Threads like this are the reason why.


----------



## altawa

badkarma2013 said:


> You are most welcome to respond...just dont respond to ME...
> 
> If you are here and advising Anyone here who is a BS and you are not..About the same as giving medical advice just because you play a Dr. on television...and About as WORTHLESS...
> 
> Again if you never been to Beirut...do not play armchair warrior and tell me how you THINK it was...your opinion in that case is about as useless as your advice...


Oh, now you are trying to tell me who I can respond to.

Got news for you....don't work that way.


----------



## badkarma2013

altawa said:


> Oh, now you are trying to tell me who I can respond to.
> 
> Got news for you....don't work that way.


READ IT Again....SEEMS YOU do not get it first time around...


----------



## Nucking Futs

tacoma said:


> Your (and numerous others) implication that the OP's wife is now under suspicion of infidelity because she lied about her virginity years ago in order to marry him is seriously off the rails.
> 
> There is not an iota of evidence to support such an accusation.
> By the OP's own statements she's been a good wife during their marriage with no question of infidelity.
> 
> The implication in no way aids the OP with his actual problem while causing yet more insecurity and angst.
> It threatens his marriage which is the exact opposite of this forums mission.
> 
> It's projection at best, asinine at worst.


I am not saying she's been unfaithful during the marriage. I'm saying there is no evidence either way, and only a fool would take the word of a proven liar.

I'm advocating a polygraph and dna test to establish a base of truth to repair this marriage. I fully expect her to pass the polygraph and the dna test to show that kevin is the father, but to blindly trust someone that has been proven to be able to lie convincingly enough to fool her husband for 7 years about something so important to him is foolish. 

The foundation of trust for this marriage has been destroyed. They need something to build from.

It boggles my mind that there are so many people on this thread trying to convince Kevin to just trust her when the facts would indicate otherwise.

You disagree because you so devalue Kevins stance on this that you don't accept the dishonesty in his wife. Your empathy is all for his wife, none for Kevin.


----------



## Coldie

tacoma said:


> Speak for yourself, I would never have even considered marrying a virgin.
> 
> Threads like this are the reason why.



If you did, and found out afterwards she/he lied and was a virgin but scared to admit it, the backlash would be non existent. I was trying to put the previous posters comments in perspective. Lying about not being a virgin is much different than lying about your long sexual history (threesomes and more).


----------



## badkarma2013

altawa said:


> When that marriage is BASED on that lie, when she knew full well there would be no marriage if she told the truth and she lied anyway, yeah, I equate it to the betrayal a BS feels when the WW or WH cheats and is found out. You seem to have a mindset that the only people allowed to feel the pain of betrayal are people who were cheated on. You're wrong.


In that light Point Taken...

Our verbal sparring ASIDE......Dont you think MOST women lie when it comes to sex acts and sexual partners...If it comes up before marriage...? Im not looking to fight with you just an honest answer..


----------



## Coldie

Nucking Futs said:


> I am not saying she's been unfaithful during the marriage. I'm saying there is no evidence either way, and only a fool would take the word of a proven liar.
> 
> I'm advocating a polygraph and dna test to establish a base of truth to repair this marriage. I fully expect her to pass the polygraph and the dna test to show that kevin is the father, but to blindly trust someone that has been proven to be able to lie convincingly enough to fool her husband for 7 years about something so important to him is foolish.
> 
> The foundation of trust for this marriage has been destroyed. They need something to build from.
> 
> It boggles my mind that there are so many people on this thread trying to convince Kevin to just trust her when the facts would indicate otherwise.
> 
> You disagree because you so devalue Kevins stance on this that you don't accept the dishonesty in his wife. Your empathy is all for his wife, none for Kevin.


Nothing wrong with not trusting a person after your entire relationship was based off a lie. Anyone suggesting that the wife was totally honest after this one huge lie, is naive and arguing just to argue.

What we know is, she will lie to protect herself and her image. How do we know that? Because she has already done it. We can't just assume from that first lie she all the sudden became a truthful person and lived the life of an absolute angel. We have proof of one thing, she is a liar. The thread title calls her a liar. Now how is it wrong for those of us that calls a duck a duck, all the sudden were assuming? What exactly is it the members are doing that are suggesting she has been faithful and never told a lie again?

Based off what we know, the whole relationship was based off a lie. DNA test the kids, get a lie detector test, and establish what is and isn't the truth back in this relationship. You'd be a fool not to.


----------



## bfree

I can't wait for a mod to enter this thread and restore some order. The sniping is getting out of control here. Can we please confine the discussion to the OP's issue.


----------



## Marduk

bfree said:


> I can't wait for a mod to enter this thread and restore some order. The sniping is getting out of control here. Can we please confine the discussion to the OP's issue.


No kidding.

How the OP could wade through this to get any kind of help I have no idea.

Talk about navel gazing.


----------



## soccermom2three

badkarma2013 said:


> LOL I do agree...You seem to have not let go of your grip on sanity here...So my question to you is...What would Soccermom do...or how should one Husband or Wife handle something like this....?
> 
> Look forward to your answer.....Badkarma,,


If this is even real, lying is unacceptable but I'm wondering how much of a big deal he made about marrying virgin. Maybe she was scared of losing him and panicked. 

One thing I learned on TAM is that a woman should NEVER reveal her sexual past. Some men just can't handle hearing it. Should she tell him that she wasn't a virgin? Yes, but that should be the end of it. IMO, upon hearing that his SO isn't a virgin, a secure man would think, "Well then I'm going to rock her world so she forgets every other man she's been with." Unfortunately, that's not what we get here at TAM, we get "Oh noes" instead.


----------



## altawa

badkarma2013 said:


> In that light Point Taken...
> 
> Our verbal sparring ASIDE......Dont you think MOST women lie when it comes to sex acts and sexual partners...If it comes up before marriage...? Im not looking to fight with you just an honest answer..


Do women lie about it: Yes.

Is it right: Absolutely not. If a guy asks, she either needs to tell him or tell him it is none of his business. At that point, he can decide to proceed however he wants (continue the relationship, or get out). Lying takes this choice away from him. Same goes if you switch the genders. It is absolutely the other parties business, as they get to decide who they spend their lives with and what metrics that person has go into that decision. That is the cold, hard truth.

In this particular situation, he made his beliefs and criteria well known. As religious as he is, I am betting for her to lie in this way, she shares at least some parts of that religion (non practicing, but still knows the basic rules). So, going into this knowing A) she was lying, B) the implications of that lie on the religious beliefs held and C) not letting either A or B sway that......I couldn't put up with that.

She may be sorry now. Sorry that she got caught. Virginity is more than a 'thing'. It is a symbol of a lifestyle (when held in a religious context, not the bashful kid that can't get any context) and a group of beliefs that she led OP to believe she held. This is a compatibility point. That she may have been a good wife till now doesn't change the magnitude of this, IMO, because if she really cared for him instead of being selfish and caring for herself, she would have told the truth initially.

I have to wonder if she does anything to save the marriage, is it out of love, or is it out of fear of losing her comfy lifestyle.


----------



## EleGirl

Nucking Futs said:


> We know two things: Kevin didn't catch her cheating on him, and she is practiced at the art of deception. We do not know that she has been faithful during the marriage.


Yes you are judge and executioner here fabricating 'evidence'.

At this point there is not reason to believe that she has cheated. So why on earth are you trying so hard to accuse her of doing someone no one has evidence of.

The attacks on his wife on this thread are beyond the pale. 

From what we have been told, she lied about her virginity. That's it. Let's to fabricate sins/crimes that do not exist.


----------



## Dogbert

kevin1986 said:


> Hit the nail on the head about cheating, i need to re evaluate on that i think rationally , like most said better to divorce than go down that road.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes! Now your talking sense. Respect God and respect yourself, by not going down that vile road. That is being strong.


----------



## altawa

EleGirl said:


> Yes you are judge and executioner here fabricating 'evidence'.
> 
> At this point there is not reason to believe that she has cheated. So why on earth are you trying so hard to accuse her of doing someone no one has evidence of.
> 
> The attacks on his wife on this thread are beyond the pale.
> 
> From what we have been told, she lied about her virginity. That's it. Let's to fabricate sins/crimes that do not exist.


He is not fabricating evidence. He is stating known facts. The logical thing after knowing those two facts is 'what else has she lied about'. I don't think it is off the mark to say it is definitely a possibility. It is definitely something I wouldn't rule out.


----------



## tacoma

Coldie said:


> If you did, and found out afterwards she/he lied and was a virgin but scared to admit it, the backlash would be non existent. I was trying to put the previous posters comments in perspective. Lying about not being a virgin is much different than lying about your long sexual history (threesomes and more).


This is true BUT...
This simply couldn't have happened.

There is no way for a woman to fake being "Non-virginal" to a man who has half a brain cell.

There are things in a sexually active persons past/life that are undeniable bits of evidence.
Things like children, past lovers, friends, etc..etc..

The backlash IF this were possible would come in other forms like her specific insecurities which are non-existent for someone who has a sexual past.
Insecurities that are blatently obvious in every single post OP makes.


----------



## Thor

altawa said:


> He is not fabricating evidence. He is stating known facts. *The logical thing after knowing those two facts is 'what else has she lied about'.* I don't think it is off the mark to say it is definitely a possibility. It is definitely something I wouldn't rule out.


Two comments:

1) Having been through something similar, yet different, as Kevin, certainly there is the nearly constant thought "what else don't I know about?". Those are the words in my own head, but your translation of 'what else has she lied about' are equivalent. It is a natural thought process. It is very much the same as a BS wondering what else the WS is lying about, and have there been other affairs still not yet discovered.

2) Chances are not only are there other things yet undiscovered lurking in the shadows, but future deceptions will happen too. Unless and until Kevin's wife fully understands the depth of the betrayal Kevin feels, and until she comes to understand what she has done is wrong, she still retains the same value system which permits her to perpetrate _significant_ lies.


----------



## Nucking Futs

EleGirl said:


> Yes you are judge and executioner here fabricating 'evidence'.
> 
> At this point there is not reason to believe that she has cheated. So why on earth are you trying so hard to accuse her of doing someone no one has evidence of.
> 
> The attacks on his wife on this thread are beyond the pale.
> 
> From what we have been told, she lied about her virginity. That's it. Let's to fabricate sins/crimes that do not exist.


What evidence have I fabricated? I have said, over and over, that _we don't know_ whether she's been faithful or not. Is that the "fabricated evidence" you're talking about? Quote it if you're going to accuse me of it.

You say at this point there is no reason to believe she cheated. I agree, there is no reason to believe she cheated. _There is also no reason to believe she didn't._ There is no evidence either way. The only thing we actually have to hang our hats on is the fact that she is a proven liar.

Here's another fact for you. You want to give the benefit of the doubt to a _proven liar_. Foolish.


----------



## Dogbert

altawa said:


> He is not fabricating evidence. He is stating known facts. The logical thing after knowing those two facts is 'what else has she lied about'. I don't think it is off the mark to say it is definitely a possibility. It is definitely something I wouldn't rule out.


But some folks here are treating this situation like there are already signs of infidelity when Kevin has stated nothing of the sort. Now if Kevin came back and told us that his wife confessed to an infidelity during their courtship or after they got married, then those folks comments would make sense and be applicable to the situation. So until Kev comes back with something of that nature, could we please keep a more appropriate perspective of the situation? This is after all the *COPING WITH INFIDELITY FORUM* is it not?


----------



## tacoma

Nucking Futs said:


> What evidence have I fabricated? I have said, over and over, that _we don't know_ whether she's been faithful or not.


Good point but since she is a "proven liar" why stop at infidelity?

Maybe OP should check her criminal records too.
Maybe she's holding up liquor stores when OP thinks she's out buying groceries.

Maybe she's a closet meth head, he should check that out I mean...who knows, she did lie about something completely unrelated to these crimes for an obviously specific reason but when someone lies once you just never know.



> Here's another fact for you. You want to give the benefit of the doubt to a _proven liar_. Foolish.


We are ALL proven liars, everyone in this thread, everyone on this planet.


----------



## turnera

altawa said:


> Do women lie about it: Yes.
> 
> Is it right: Absolutely not. If a guy asks, she either needs to tell him or tell him it is none of his business. At that point, he can decide to proceed however he wants (continue the relationship, or get out). Lying takes this choice away from him. Same goes if you switch the genders. It is absolutely the other parties business, as they get to decide who they spend their lives with and what metrics that person has go into that decision. That is the cold, hard truth..


Yeah. Too bad society has beaten it into women's heads that just saying 'screw you if you don't like it' isn't acceptable. Men are dominant; women are b*tches.

And too bad women have had to live with this ridiculous 'screw the bad girls, marry the good girl' crap for tens of thousands of years and have learned, inherently, to not do that.

Look, I feel for the OP; he was sold a bill of goods. And only he can decide his future; he has a repentant GOOD wife (by his admission) who's been a great partner. If he wants to throw it all away because of that, that's the risk she took hiding it from him. And frankly, she should have known better than to trust a morally religiously righteous person to have her back, IMO.

But this black and white every woman's evil if she doesn't own up is just tasteless and pointless. Humans are fallible, humans protect themselves while seeking the best life they can have; he did no different. HIS 'best life' was dictated to him by his church and now he's using it to justify screwing around. Who is the better person then - the one who lied about life BEFORE the marriage or the one who uses her guilt against her to get what he wants?


----------



## badkarma2013

turnera said:


> Yeah. Too bad society has beaten it into women's heads that just saying 'screw you if you don't like it' isn't acceptable. Men are dominant; women are b*tches.
> 
> And too bad women have had to live with this ridiculous 'screw the bad girls, marry the good girl' crap for tens of thousands of years and have learned, inherently, to not do that.
> 
> Look, I feel for the OP; he was sold a bill of goods. And only he can decide his future; he has a repentant GOOD wife (by his admission) who's been a great partner. If he wants to throw it all away because of that, that's the risk she took hiding it from him. And frankly, she should have known better than to trust a morally religiously righteous person to have her back, IMO.
> 
> But this black and white every woman's evil if she doesn't own up is just tasteless and pointless. Humans are fallible, humans protect themselves while seeking the best life they can have; he did no different. HIS 'best life' was dictated to him by his church and now he's using it to justify screwing around. Who is the better person then - the one who lied about life BEFORE the marriage or the one who uses her guilt against her to get what he wants?


What is old saying men add 5-8 partners..Women subtract 5-8 partners....

From what I have seen here....If you are in a relationship and cant handle the answer ..For the love of God dont ask....You are more than likely to be Lied to or hear something you cannot live with...neither is good ...

IMHO most women lie because of threads and post like these


----------



## altawa

turnera said:


> Yeah. Too bad society has beaten it into women's heads that just saying 'screw you if you don't like it' isn't acceptable. Men are dominant; women are b*tches.


So say it. Actions have consequences. The consequence is that your partner decides he doesn't want to be with you. That is HIS choice. Lying to him takes away his choice to make an informed decision.



turnera said:


> And too bad women have had to live with this ridiculous 'screw the bad girls, marry the good girl' crap for tens of thousands of years and have learned, inherently, to not do that.


And how many women go for the 'bad boy' all through their younger days, only to settle for the 'safe bet' later on? Double standard much?



turnera said:


> Look, I feel for the OP; he was sold a bill of goods. And only he can decide his future; he has a repentant GOOD wife (by his admission) who's been a great partner. If he wants to throw it all away because of that, that's the risk she took hiding it from him. And frankly, she should have known better than to trust a morally religiously righteous person to have her back, IMO.


So, he is supposed to have her back after she point blank lied to him about something she KNEW was pivotal in his decision to be with her? Seriously, you want to go there? Then to dog on his religion (some more) because she lied? Way to blameshift. It is all the guys fault she lied, because screw his beliefs and wants, she was entitled to what she wanted, right?



turnera said:


> But this black and white every woman's evil if she doesn't own up is just tasteless and pointless. Humans are fallible, humans protect themselves while seeking the best life they can have; he did no different. HIS 'best life' was dictated to him by his church and now he's using it to justify screwing around. Who is the better person then - the one who lied about life BEFORE the marriage or the one who uses her guilt against her to get what he wants?


And you are obviously ignoring his subsequent posts saying he was not going to do that this, and also ignore the fact that his world has been turned upside down and maybe, just maybe, he is having a hard time thinking straight on the subject. All in the name of making your point and 'being right'.


----------



## EleGirl

altawa said:


> He is not fabricating evidence. He is stating known facts. The logical thing after knowing those two facts is 'what else has she lied about'. I don't think it is off the mark to say it is definitely a possibility. It is definitely something I wouldn't rule out.


I disagree.

There is the concept of innocent until proven guilty. That is the modus under which our society operations.


----------



## Coldie

tacoma said:


> Good point but since she is a "proven liar" why stop at infidelity?
> 
> Maybe OP should check her criminal records too.
> Maybe she's holding up liquor stores when OP thinks she's out buying groceries.
> 
> Maybe she's a closet meth head, he should check that out I mean...who knows, she did lie about something completely unrelated to these crimes for an obviously specific reason but when someone lies once you just never know.
> 
> 
> 
> We are ALL proven liars, everyone in this thread, everyone on this planet.


What's funny about this statement is, when I originally responded I was going to mention how in depositions we will ask a witness about their criminal record. This bothers most people, in fact, it bothers them so much they tend to lie about it. However, you can't lie under oath and if you do lie about your criminal record (we do get criminal records regardless if they admit it or not), it can be used against you. If you tell the truth, we can't bring up your crimes or the fact you lied (obviously -- because you didn't lie). However, if you lie, not only can we bring up the fact you lied, but we can also then bring up the actual crimes committed. Once a witness is proven to be a liar, or someone that will lie under oath for their own benefit, the rest of their testimony is worthless. Why? Because they are proven liars and their word is meaningless.

Which is a good point, because that's all we know about the OPs wife. She is a proven liar and giving her the benefit of the doubt would be foolish. If she lied about this, what else has she lied about? How can the OP ever trust her? Anything he has ever asked her that could somehow put her in a bad light or embarrass her, she lied about. He has no idea who he even married, the type of woman and the decisions she made prior to meeting him, or what she will do in the future (and if he would ever find out).

I really don't understand how anyone is defending the OPs wife to be totally honest.


----------



## Nucking Futs

turnera said:


> Yeah. Too bad society has beaten it into women's heads that just saying 'screw you if you don't like it' isn't acceptable. Men are dominant; women are b*tches.
> 
> And too bad women have had to live with this ridiculous 'screw the bad girls, marry the good girl' crap for tens of thousands of years and have learned, inherently, to not do that.
> 
> Look, I feel for the OP; he was sold a bill of goods. And only he can decide his future; he has a repentant GOOD wife (by his admission) who's been a great partner. If he wants to throw it all away because of that, that's the risk she took hiding it from him. And frankly, *she should have known better than to trust a morally religiously righteous person to have her back*, IMO.
> 
> Let me get this straight. You think he should "have her back" for her lying to him? Is that what you're saying? The liar should have known better than to trust the person she was lying to to have her back? What twisted logic led you to that conclusion? Was it logic, or just knee-jerk misandry?
> 
> But this black and white every woman's evil if she doesn't own up is just tasteless and pointless. Who, besides you, said that? Humans are fallible, humans protect themselves while seeking the best life they can have; he did no different. HIS 'best life' was dictated to him by his church and now he's using it to justify screwing around. Who is the better person then - the one who lied about life BEFORE the marriage or the one who uses her guilt against her to get what he wants? Neither. She deserves no praise for what she did, she deserves consequences of some kind. If Kevin cheats on her now he will be the bigger scum bag of the two, no question.


Look folks, a lot of you have your heads so far up her poor abused ass you can't see what I'm saying. She deserves consequences for what she did. I'm advocating a polygraph and dna test to provide a building block for repairing the marriage, but also as _all_ of the consequences of her lie. A virtual slap in the face with the realization that she did tremendous damage to her credibility and this is what it will take to start rebuilding it. 

But assuming she passes the poly and the dna confirms Kevins paternity, that should be _it_. No bringing it up in the future, no holding it over her head, no blackmailing her into an open marriage. Poly to satisfy himself that she's done lying to him and to give her some consequences then _let it go.
_


----------



## Dogbert

I ate the last of the caramel waffle cone ice cream and lied to my girlfriend about it. Now she's accusing me of being a no good, lying, cheating POS. I guess now I'll have to take a poly and provide a stool sample to prove my innocence.


----------



## EleGirl

altawa said:


> So say it. Actions have consequences. The consequence is that your partner decides he doesn't want to be with you. That is HIS choice. Lying to him takes away his choice to make an informed decision.
> 
> 
> 
> And how many women go for the 'bad boy' all through their younger days, only to settle for the 'safe bet' later on? Double standard much?
> 
> 
> 
> So, he is supposed to have her back after she point blank lied to him about something she KNEW was pivotal in his decision to be with her? Seriously, you want to go there? Then to dog on his religion (some more) because she lied? Way to blameshift. It is all the guys fault she lied, because screw his beliefs and wants, she was entitled to what she wanted, right?
> 
> 
> 
> And you are obviously ignoring his subsequent posts saying he was not going to do that this, and also ignore the fact that his world has been turned upside down and maybe, just maybe, he is having a hard time thinking straight on the subject. All in the name of making your point and 'being right'.


This is a forum where people give their opinions and insight into things. People are allowed to post whatever they want as long as it's within the rules of the forum.

you are entitled to post yours. Others are entitled to post there's. That's how it works.

One thing about religion is that it's a good idea to question, contemplate and discuss. It's good that alternative points of view are posted and discussed. It's good for Kevin to read all kinds of input. 

His religion is about a lot more than if a person is a virgin. It's about a lot more than throwing people away because they do something wrong. It's about forgiveness and redemption. Forgiveness and redemption is the central theme of all of Christianity. He needs to give this some serious thought.

It is not disrespecting his religion to express alternative points of view.


----------



## Nucking Futs

EleGirl said:


> I disagree.
> 
> There is the concept of innocent until proven guilty. That is the modus under which our society operations.


No it's not. It's the modus our _criminal_ justice system is supposed to work under. It doesn't even apply in civil law, much less society at large.


----------



## altawa

EleGirl said:


> I disagree.
> 
> There is the concept of innocent until proven guilty. That is the modus under which our society operations.


No....that is part and parcel of the American legal system. It has no bearing outside of that legal system. Cheaters are guilty as sin, even before it being PROVEN, as one example.

Don't mix standards of evidence and standards of conviction into this, it is two different ballgames.


----------



## vellocet

EleGirl said:


> Yes you are judge and executioner here fabricating 'evidence'.


No fabricating to it. NF posted the 2 things we do know, that Kev didn't catch her cheating, therefore there is no proof of such. That is a fact unless kev says otherwise.

He also highlighted her "deception". That's a fact, she DID deceive him.




> At this point there is not reason to believe that she has cheated. So why on earth are you trying so hard to accuse her of doing someone no one has evidence of.


He didn't accuse her. He's wondering if she did based on what could be seen as an insatiable sexual appetite for taboo type sex.


----------



## altawa

EleGirl said:


> This is a forum where people give their opinions and insight into things. People are allowed to post whatever they want as long as it's within the rules of the forum.
> 
> you are entitled to post yours. Others are entitled to post there's. That's how it works.
> 
> One thing about religion is that it's a good idea to question, contemplate and discuss. It's good that alternative points of view are posted and discussed. It's good for Kevin to read all kinds of input.
> 
> His religion is about a lot more than if a person is a virgin. It's about a lot more than throwing people away because they do something wrong. It's about forgiveness and redemption. Forgiveness and redemption is the central theme of all of Christianity. He needs to give this some serious thought.
> 
> It is not disrespecting his religion to express alternative points of view.


Oh, so people can bring up his religion as long as they are dictating how he should see it, but if he brings up his religion, or his beliefs, then he is wrong and should just 'get over it' as has been said in this thread.

Thanks for letting me know how that works.


----------



## EleGirl

Coldie said:


> I really don't understand how anyone is defending the OPs wife to be totally honest.


No one is defending her as being totally honest.

We are only saying to not start fabricating crimes and sins.

If she were a habitual liar who lies about a lot of things, the OP would have seen this. 

I know a few people who are liars.. they lie about everything. If the OP's wife were like this, he'd know. He's have more situations in which he caught her lying.

So to our knowledge, she has lied about one thing. And now that he's confronted her she has opened up about that.


----------



## Coldie

EleGirl said:


> I disagree.
> 
> There is the concept of innocent until proven guilty. That is the modus under which our society operations.


What is she innocent of, cheating?

How about cheating him out of the truth for 5 years? 

I think I saw you say, "She lied about being a virgin." I feel like this softens what she really lied about. She didn't lie about being a virgin, she lied about having sex with multiple men including a threesome. How many times she actually had sex with those men, who knows? She could have had actual sex 100s of times, so saying she is a virgin is 100 lies. 


That's huge, and much more than just "lying about being a virgin." He openly admits he wouldn't have married her had he known her history. He was cheated out of an honest wife and honest woman and definitely needs to question her about other things she may have been dishonest about. That whole relationship is based off a huge lie.


----------



## tacoma

vellocet said:


> He didn't accuse her. He's wondering if she did based on what could be seen as an insatiable sexual appetite for taboo type sex.


Two known pre-marital encounters are deemed "insatiable"?

Damn, I'm a sexual madman if that's the standard.


----------



## EleGirl

Nucking Futs said:


> No it's not. It's the modus our _criminal_ justice system is supposed to work under. It doesn't even apply in civil law, much less society at large.





altawa said:


> No....that is part and parcel of the American legal system. It has no bearing outside of that legal system. Cheaters are guilty as sin, even before it being PROVEN, as one example.
> 
> Don't mix standards of evidence and standards of conviction into this, it is two different ballgames.


Well then, you two can have all the fun you want playing judge and executioner of the OP’s wife. Have at it in your world of guilty because you say so. It must be a fun world to play in with all that power.


----------



## EleGirl

altawa said:


> Oh, so people can bring up his religion as long as they are dictating how he should see it, but if he brings up his religion, or his beliefs, then he is wrong and should just 'get over it' as has been said in this thread.
> 
> Thanks for letting me know how that works.


Blah blah blah... twisting things does not work.


----------



## Dogbert

Nucking Futs said:


> No it's not. It's the modus our _criminal_ justice system is supposed to work under. It doesn't even apply in civil law, much less society at large.


Don't get me wrong, I see your point in the benefit of being willing to go above and beyond to re-establish trust. But it can become a slippery slope if that isn't enough for some folks and they want Kev to use other methods of extracting the truth that would be worthy of the Spanish Inquisition.


----------



## EleGirl

Coldie said:


> What is she innocent of, cheating?
> 
> How about cheating him out of the truth for 5 years?
> 
> I think I saw you say, "She lied about being a virgin." I feel like this softens what she really lied about. She didn't lie about being a virgin, she lied about having sex with multiple men including a threesome. How many times she actually had sex with those men, who knows? She could have had actual sex 100s of times, so saying she is a virgin is 100 lies.
> 
> 
> That's huge, and much more than just "lying about being a virgin." He openly admits he wouldn't have married her had he known her history. He was cheated out of an honest wife and honest woman and definitely needs to question her about other things she may have been dishonest about. That whole relationship is based off a huge lie.


 No, saying that she lied about being a virgin is not minimizing the fact that she lied about being a virgin. It is a statement of fact. Personally I think she was a fool to lie. She should have told him the truth and let him make up his own mind. Instead she lied and now has a man is not compatible with her. Foolish woman.

Yes she is innocent of cheat (infidelity) as far as we know. 

If you read my previous posts you would know that I have stated that she was very wrong in lying to him. 

But I also think its wrong for posters on here to start accusing her of things that they have no proof of. 

That’s my thoughts on the topic. It might surprise you to find this out, but I have as much right to my thoughts as you do. Since this is an open forum, I will also continue to post my thoughts.


----------



## vellocet

turnera said:


> Yeah. Too bad society has beaten it into women's heads that just saying 'screw you if you don't like it' isn't acceptable. Men are dominant; women are b*tches.


No, men are azzholes, women are b*tches




> Who is the better person then - the one who lied about life BEFORE the marriage or the one who uses her guilt against her to get what he wants?


He's not using her guilt to get what he wants because its impossible for him to get what he wants.

But if you want to ask who the better person is? I'll always side with the person that has been betrayed, and in this case he was betrayed, just not in the cheating sense. Because when someone is betrayed, then their thought process changes. 

He isn't using her "guilt". He is upset about being bamboozled.



> HIS 'best life' was dictated to him by his church and now he's using it to justify screwing around.


Did I miss something? Is he cheating?

Or is he just saying things in anger?


----------



## turnera

vellocet said:


> He isn't using her "guilt". He is upset about being bamboozled.
> 
> Did I miss something? Is he cheating?


I guess that depends on how serious he is about going out and screwing a bunch of women now because he's 'entitled.'


----------



## vellocet

tacoma said:


> Two known pre-marital encounters are deemed "insatiable"?
> 
> Damn, I'm a sexual madman if that's the standard.


Well, maybe insatiable is not the correct way to put it.

But if I found out someone lied to me about having a 3some, I wouldn't feel like I had someone that would only want just little ol me 

However, knowing of a ONS and a 3some, it wouldn't be far from my mind that there were way more than just that.


----------



## vellocet

turnera said:


> I guess that depends on how serious he is about going out and screwing a bunch of women now because he's 'entitled.'


Oh, I think he is just venting. If he has any self-respect, he won't.

Unless, kev, you can tell us I'm wrong and you actually DO feel entitled to go out and cheat?


----------



## tacoma

Coldie said:


> I really don't understand how anyone is defending the OPs wife to be totally honest.


I'm not defending her Coldie, in fact I've stated somewhere in this thread OP has every right to divorce her over the lie.

What I'm trying to get across is that tossing away 7 years and a family for a 5 year old boy over this one single thing is throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

By OP's own admission she's been a good wife and partner for those 7 years, she is the mother of his child.

Then there is the fact that OP is ignoring the edicts of his own religion in many ways if he does divorce her over this.
So religious justification here is just bull****.

A divorce in this situation will be the cause of irrepairable harm and pain over what is essentially OP's insecurity over a lie.

My wife lied to me before we were married in ways that are far more damaging and caused insane insecurites in me .

Over the years I've battled with the resentment this has caused but I ultimately realized that while what she did caused me great pain her motivation was acceptable to me.
Over the years I was forced to come to the conclusion that she has been the best woman I've ever known, she loves me, she willingly sacrifices herself for me without hesitation.
Her love for me is undeniable and trust me I tried to deny it for a very long time to no avail.
She has given me my daughter which is no small thing.

She lied because she wanted me and her experience led her to believe I'd never want her if I knew the truth. She was wrong but I could understand why she felt that way.
Once I was convinced of her motivation I was able to come to terms with it.

I'm not going to lie and say I'm over it because I will never be over it but I have learned that the price I paid due to her lies was a deal when one considers the whole package.
I can live with it.

OP divorcing his wife and breaking his family over this would be a travesty.


----------



## tacoma

vellocet said:


> Well, maybe insatiable is not the correct way to put it.
> 
> But if I found out someone lied to me about having a 3some, I wouldn't feel like I had someone that would only want just little ol me


I can understand that but trust me when I tell you that the heralded threesome is more often than not, not what it's cracked up to be....not at all.


----------



## vellocet

tacoma said:


> I'm not defending her Coldie, in fact I've stated somewhere in this thread OP has every right to divorce her over the lie.
> 
> What I'm trying to get across is that tossing away 7 years and a family for a 5 year old boy over this one single thing is throwing the baby out with the bathwater.


You know, I would be inclined to not throw away the family over it.

But I would make it clear to my deceiver that things will never be the same from that point on. Could possibly be good, but don't ever expect me to trust what comes out of her mouth.


----------



## Coldie

EleGirl said:


> No, saying that she lied about being a virgin is not minimizing the fact that she lied about being a virgin. It is a statement of fact. Personally I think she was a fool to lie. She should have told him the truth and let him make up his own mind. Instead she lied and now has a man is not compatible with her. Foolish woman.
> 
> Yes she is innocent of cheat (infidelity) as far as we know.
> 
> If you read my previous posts you would know that I have stated that she was very wrong in lying to him.
> 
> But I also think its wrong for posters on here to start accusing her of things that they have no proof of.
> 
> That’s my thoughts on the topic. It might surprise you to find this out, but I have as much right to my thoughts as you do. Since this is an open forum, I will also continue to post my thoughts.


It doesn't surprise me at all. No-one said anything about you not having a right to your thoughts.

Huh? 

You seem to be taking this a bit personal. I've been liking your previous replies based off the fact you seem to be in attack mode for no apparent reason. 

If you want to pretend lying about being a virgin is just 1 lie, rather than 100s of lies because no telling how many partners she has had (or how many times with each), then you can do that. You said yourself, if she has lied multiple times in the relationship he would know. I'd consider her lying about being a virgin, when she had multiple partners, including threesomes with 2 men at once, as she has lied multiple times. He should absolutely take precautions and find out what else she lied about.

Hopefully it doesn't surprise you that I also have my own thoughts.


----------



## EleGirl

tacoma said:


> I'm not defending her Coldie, in fact I've stated somewhere in this thread OP has every right to divorce her over the lie.
> 
> What I'm trying to get across is that tossing away 7 years and a family for a 5 year old boy over this one single thing is throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
> 
> By OP's own admission she's been a good wife and partner for those 7 years, she is the mother of his child.
> 
> Then there is the fact that OP is ignoring the edicts of his own religion in many ways if he does divorce her over this.
> So religious justification here is just bull****.
> 
> A divorce in this situation will be the cause of irrepairable harm and pain over what is essentially OP's insecurity over a lie.
> 
> My wife lied to me before we were married in ways that are far more damaging and caused insane insecurites in me .
> 
> Over the years I've battled with the resentment this has caused but I ultimately realized that while what she did caused me great pain her motivation was acceptable to me.
> Over the years I was forced to come to the conclusion that she has been the best woman I've ever known, she loves me, she willingly sacrifices herself for me without hesitation.
> Her love for me is undeniable and trust me I tried to deny it for a very long time to no avail.
> She has given me my daughter which is no small thing.
> 
> She lied because she wanted me and her experience led her to believe I'd never want her if I knew the truth. She was wrong but I could understand why she felt that way.
> Once I was convinced of her motivation I was able to come to terms with it.
> 
> I'm not going to lie and say I'm over it because I will never be over it but I have learned that the price I paid due to her lies was a deal when one considers the whole package.
> I can live with it.
> 
> OP divorcing his wife and breaking his family over this would be a travesty.


This is an inspirational post that the OP would do well to think a lot about.


----------



## vellocet

tacoma said:


> I can understand that but trust me when I tell you that the heralded threesome is more often than not, not what it's cracked up to be....not at all.


Bah, still, wouldn't feel good about being with someone that had one.


----------



## Coldie

tacoma said:


> I'm not defending her Coldie, in fact I've stated somewhere in this thread OP has every right to divorce her over the lie.
> 
> What I'm trying to get across is that tossing away 7 years and a family for a 5 year old boy over this one single thing is throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
> 
> By OP's own admission she's been a good wife and partner for those 7 years, she is the mother of his child.
> 
> Then there is the fact that OP is ignoring the edicts of his own religion in many ways if he does divorce her over this.
> So religious justification here is just bull****.
> 
> A divorce in this situation will be the cause of irrepairable harm and pain over what is essentially OP's insecurity over a lie.
> 
> My wife lied to me before we were married in ways that are far more damaging and caused insane insecurites in me .
> 
> Over the years I've battled with the resentment this has caused but I ultimately realized that while what she did caused me great pain her motivation was acceptable to me.
> Over the years I was forced to come to the conclusion that she has been the best woman I've ever known, she loves me, she willingly sacrifices herself for me without hesitation.
> Her love for me is undeniable and trust me I tried to deny it for a very long time to no avail.
> She has given me my daughter which is no small thing.
> 
> She lied because she wanted me and her experience led her to believe I'd never want her if I knew the truth. She was wrong but I could understand why she felt that way.
> Once I was convinced of her motivation I was able to come to terms with it.
> 
> I'm not going to lie and say I'm over it because I will never be over it but I have learned that the price I paid due to her lies was a deal when one considers the whole package.
> I can live with it.
> 
> OP divorcing his wife and breaking his family over this would be a travesty.


I don't think we are even having a disagreement to be honest. If we both feel he should investigate and figure out how to get his trust back, then we are on the same page. 

The other 30 pages of arguments/comments I haven't even read. I am responding to the OP and the last page of replies. Apparently it has jumped into other things and I am getting into arguments I know nothing about.


----------



## altawa

EleGirl said:


> Blah blah blah... twisting things does not work.


Well, everytime he brings up his religion or somebody else points it out that his religion values virginity or that he has a valid reason for divorce based on this, all we here is that he/we are wrong and he needs to 'get over it'. Then, you and others come in and profess to tell him how he needs to handle his religion, or that his religion means nothing and is just wrong. 

Talk about people twisting. Yeah, you're right, it doesn't work. And I am not going to watch a double standard play out where it is ok to dog on his religion then tell him how to practice it.


----------



## Nucking Futs

tacoma said:


> I'm not defending her Coldie, in fact I've stated somewhere in this thread OP has every right to divorce her over the lie.
> 
> What I'm trying to get across is that tossing away 7 years and a family for a 5 year old boy over this one single thing is throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
> 
> By OP's own admission she's been a good wife and partner for those 7 years, she is the mother of his child.
> 
> Then there is the fact that OP is ignoring the edicts of his own religion in many ways if he does divorce her over this.
> So religious justification here is just bull****.
> 
> A divorce in this situation will be the cause of irrepairable harm and pain over what is essentially OP's insecurity over a lie.
> 
> My wife lied to me before we were married in ways that are far more damaging and caused insane insecurites in me .
> 
> *Over the years I've battled with the resentment this has caused but I ultimately realized that while what she did caused me great pain her motivation was acceptable to me.*
> Over the years I was forced to come to the conclusion that she has been the best woman I've ever known, she loves me, she willingly sacrifices herself for me without hesitation.
> Her love for me is undeniable and trust me I tried to deny it for a very long time to no avail.
> She has given me my daughter which is no small thing.
> 
> She lied because she wanted me and her experience led her to believe I'd never want her if I knew the truth. She was wrong but I could understand why she felt that way.
> Once I was convinced of her motivation I was able to come to terms with it.
> 
> I'm not going to lie and say I'm over it because I will never be over it but I have learned that the price I paid due to her lies was a deal when one considers the whole package.
> I can live with it.
> 
> OP divorcing his wife and breaking his family over this would be a travesty.


So are you willing to concede that Kevin has the same right to decide what is acceptable to him, whether you agree with it or not? Or are you going to continue to bash him for having different values than yours?


----------



## Coldie

tacoma said:


> I'm not defending her Coldie, in fact I've stated somewhere in this thread OP has every right to divorce her over the lie.
> 
> What I'm trying to get across is that tossing away 7 years and a family for a 5 year old boy over this one single thing is throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
> 
> By OP's own admission she's been a good wife and partner for those 7 years, she is the mother of his child.
> 
> Then there is the fact that OP is ignoring the edicts of his own religion in many ways if he does divorce her over this.
> So religious justification here is just bull****.
> 
> A divorce in this situation will be the cause of irrepairable harm and pain over what is essentially OP's insecurity over a lie.
> 
> My wife lied to me before we were married in ways that are far more damaging and caused insane insecurites in me .
> 
> Over the years I've battled with the resentment this has caused but I ultimately realized that while what she did caused me great pain her motivation was acceptable to me.
> Over the years I was forced to come to the conclusion that she has been the best woman I've ever known, she loves me, she willingly sacrifices herself for me without hesitation.
> Her love for me is undeniable and trust me I tried to deny it for a very long time to no avail.
> She has given me my daughter which is no small thing.
> 
> She lied because she wanted me and her experience led her to believe I'd never want her if I knew the truth. She was wrong but I could understand why she felt that way.
> Once I was convinced of her motivation I was able to come to terms with it.
> 
> I'm not going to lie and say I'm over it because I will never be over it but I have learned that the price I paid due to her lies was a deal when one considers the whole package.
> I can live with it.
> 
> OP divorcing his wife and breaking his family over this would be a travesty.


Btw, this was a very good reply. I'd suggest the OP reads it carefully.


----------



## tacoma

Nucking Futs said:


> So are you willing to concede that Kevin has the same right to decide what is acceptable to him, whether you agree with it or not?


I have no need to concede this as I've already repeatedly stated it throughout this thread.


----------



## tacoma

vellocet said:


> Could possibly be good, but don't ever expect me to trust what comes out of her mouth.


Eventually he'd have to trust her or it could never be good.


----------



## warlock07

I think OP need more sympathy from the forum and the advice should be geared towards helping him readjust his values and thoughts about the virginity without shaming him. 

People who do the false sarcastic outrage thin they are extremely funny or clever must not have had lived anywhere where the culture was much different from the values they grew up with. 

The world is pretty big place.


----------



## Nucking Futs

tacoma said:


> The difference is that you're married.
> 
> Sex with another woman now is infidelity, your wife isn't guilty of this.
> 
> What your wife did pales in comparison with what you're suggesting.
> 
> What your wife did was wrong but truthfully in my mind her only mistake was pursuing you and your unhealthy requirement of virginity because she had to lie about it.
> 
> Your situation is yet more evidence that sex before marriage is far more healthy than saving yourself.
> 
> *If she hadn't lied and you rejected her because of her lack of virginity regardless of any and all other redeeming qualities she held then you IMO are just a shallow insecure person who has no idea what is valuable and what is meaningless.
> 
> You have put far too much importance on that which means nothing while failing to recognize the meaningful.
> 
> She did lie and she was wrong to do so but you are the person guilty of putting yourself where you are now.*
> 
> If you were to divorce her over this (and I believe you have every right to do so) you would be doing her a favor in the long run.





tacoma said:


> I have no need to concede this as I've already repeatedly stated it throughout this thread.


Ok, I get it. He has the right to decide for himself but if he doesn't decide the way you would he's "just a shallow insecure person who has no idea what is valuable and what is meaningless".


----------



## Nucking Futs

tacoma said:


> Eventually he'd have to trust her or it could never be good.


I agree. That's why I'm advocating a polygraph.


----------



## EleGirl

altawa said:


> Well, everytime he brings up his religion or somebody else points it out that his religion values virginity or that he has a valid reason for divorce based on this, all we here is that he/we are wrong and he needs to 'get over it'.


Most people have told the OP that if he values virginity and let her know that before marriage, then he has every right to be upset about her lie and divorce her.

Sure there have a few, very few, who have voiced something different. But this is an open forum and so people will post their points of view.

What people have mostly been telling the OP is that if he now choses to cheat on his wife, goes out and has a sex with a lot of women, then he would be wrong.. especially since he says that he is a stanch Christian. I see nothing wrong with people pointing that out to him.




altawa said:


> Then, you and others come in and profess to tell him how he needs to handle his religion,


I have never told him how he needs to handle anything. I stated more than once that he has the right to have any values he wants to have. If he wants to divorce her over her lie, he has the right to do that. 

The only think I've brought up is some food for thought to him about forgiveness and redemption. That's what people come here for, is for people to give them input.




altawa said:


> or that his religion means nothing and is just wrong.


I've never said that his religion means nothing or that it's just wrong.



altawa said:


> Talk about people twisting. Yeah, you're right, it doesn't work. And I am not going to watch a double standard play out where it is ok to dog on his religion then tell him how to practice it.


I'm not sure who is dogging his religion. However I'm not so I have no idea why you are jumping on me this way.


----------



## vellocet

tacoma said:


> Eventually he'd have to trust her or it could never be good.


Then so be it. Its on her, not him.


----------



## tacoma

Nucking Futs said:


> Ok, I get it. He has the right to decide for himself but if he doesn't decide the way you would he's "just a shallow insecure person who has no idea what is valuable and what is meaningless".


Yes, in my opinion he would be if he divorces over this.

If he is willing to sacrifice his childs stable upbringing and lose a woman who has shown and proven her love and loyalty to him over her lie and lack of virginity then yes, he is a shallow insecure person who fails to see what is truly valuable in this world.

Let me add self-centered to that litany as well while we're at it.


----------



## vellocet

tacoma said:


> Yes, in my opinion he would be if he divorces over this.
> 
> If he is willing to sacrifice his childs stable upbringing and lose a woman who has shown and proven her love and loyalty to him over her lie and lack of virginity then yes, he is a shallow insecure person who fails to see what is truly valuable in this world.
> 
> Let me add self-centered to that litany as well while we're at it.


So he just needs to get over it, shut up about it, and bottle it up whenever he thinks about it, eh? He just needs to be content with not getting what he wanted in someone like minded as he?


----------



## tacoma

vellocet said:


> So he just needs to get over it, shut up about it, and bottle it up whenever he thinks about it, eh?


Please point to where I even implied such a thing.

In fact I've implied the exact opposite but lets not allow what I've actually posted get in the way of our witch hunt.

Carry on!!


----------



## jld

vellocet said:


> So he just needs to get over it, shut up about it, and bottle it up whenever he thinks about it, eh? He just needs to be content with not getting what he wanted in someone like minded as he?


You tell it!

I mean, _he paid good money for her_, after all. And now he finds out there were _quality issues he was not made aware of_, damn it!


----------



## EleGirl

jld said:


> You tell it!
> 
> I mean, _he paid good money for her_, after all. And now he finds out there were _quality issues he was not made aware of_, damn it!


Isn't there a lemon law about this stuff?


----------



## altawa

EleGirl said:


> Most people have told the OP that if he values virginity and let her know that before marriage, then he has every right to be upset about her lie and divorce her.
> 
> Sure there have a few, very few, who have voiced something different. But this is an open forum and so people will post their points of view.
> 
> What people have mostly been telling the OP is that if he now choses to cheat on his wife, goes out and has a sex with a lot of women, then he would be wrong.. especially since he says that he is a stanch Christian. I see nothing wrong with people pointing that out to him.


No, it hasn't been 'very few'. If it had been very few, it would have been written off as an anomaly. That isn't the case. And I agree about him cheating. But, heres the thing. Those people chastising him are conveniently ignoring a couple of things: 1) this is no different than when a BS finds out about his/her cheating spouse. They are knocked for a loop and can't think straight. They say lots of things. The reaction to that here has been to say he never valued his religion, and that he is using this as an excuse to do anything, instead of acknowledging the massive hurt he is going through and thinking 'gee, maybe he is venting because he is hurting so bad'. So, it instantly was blameshifted to him. 2) he has made subsequent posts saying that he was not going to cheat on her. It has only been acknowledged by a couple of people (me being one of them). There is a difference between offering advice and counsel (dont cheat on your wife, it makes you the lesser person, just divorce if it is going to come to that, etc.) and completely disregarding his religion as if it was nothing, fabricating excuses for the wife (which has been done i.e. she had to lie, all women have to lie, etc), then saying that his views on virginity mean nothing (I have seen that on this page alone, as well as repeatedly throughout this thread).



EleGirl said:


> I have never told him how he needs to handle anything. I stated more than once that he has the right to have any values he wants to have. If he wants to divorce her over her lie, he has the right to do that.
> 
> The only think I've brought up is some food for thought to him about forgiveness and redemption. That's what people come here for, is for people to give them input.
> 
> I've never said that his religion means nothing or that it's just wrong.
> 
> I'm not sure who is dogging his religion. However I'm not so I have no idea why you are jumping on me this way.


Your outside views on forgiveness and redemption come off as saying that he needs to 'get over it'. That if he doesn't forgive her for this, he is not living up to his religion. This has been said by others as well. His religion also says that this very transgression is grounds for divorce, so if he doesn't get over it, is he then not living up to his religion?


----------



## jld

EleGirl said:


> Isn't there a lemon law about this stuff?


Well, if there _isn't,_ there_ oughta be!_


----------



## altawa

EleGirl said:


> Isn't there a lemon law about this stuff?


Oh....and there we go with dismissing his religion again.....you know, that thing you say you aren't doing.


----------



## EleGirl

altawa said:


> Oh....and there we go with dismissing his religion again.....you know, that thing you say you aren't doing.


Please take a chill pill.


----------



## altawa

EleGirl said:


> Please take a chill pill.


You're the one that said you werent doing it.


----------



## vellocet

tacoma said:


> Please point to where I even implied such a thing.
> 
> In fact I've implied the exact opposite but lets not allow what I've actually posted get in the way of our witch hunt.
> 
> Carry on!!


Well what other conclusion can we come to? Counseling? Actually, you haven't implied at all what you think he should/could do. Just that if he can't handle the situation, he is a "fool", and self-centered. So the only logical conclusion to your comment is that he needs to either leave, then he'd be a fool and self centered, or just get over it.

Obviously certain posters here think he is being unreasonable. So he should just take his unreasonableness and suck it up, and be content with not being content.


----------



## vellocet

jld said:


> You tell it!
> 
> I mean, _he paid good money for her_, after all. And now he finds out there were _quality issues he was not made aware of_, damn it!


JLD, the fact that you post something like this only reinforces what I'm saying given your views on men/women relations


----------



## Q tip

OP has to think through his options. running off and cheating will not help and adds no value.

he needs to lay all the facts out to himself. look, learn, speak to elders and gain some wisdom beyond his years for guidance.

mothers, grandmothers can help too. likely, they've seen it all. also her mother and father if he can. if not, then with wise men he trusts and respects.


----------



## Nucking Futs

EleGirl said:


> Please take a chill pill.


That's pretty funny coming from the person who posted this.



EleGirl said:


> Well then, you two can have all the fun you want playing judge and executioner of the OP’s wife. Have at it in your world of guilty because you say so. It must be a fun world to play in with all that power.


----------



## jld

vellocet said:


> JLD, the fact that you post something like this only reinforces what I'm saying given your views on men/women relations


_You _know best, vell.


----------



## Dogbert

vellocet said:


> So he just needs to get over it, shut up about it, and bottle it up whenever he thinks about it, eh? He just needs to be content with not getting what he wanted in someone like minded as he?


There is no such thing as "get over it". No matter how much we have healed, we will always carry the emotional scars. Even the application of severe consequences do not help us to "get over it". They may provide a momentary satisfaction but then we're back to square one.

Life is not fair. It wasn't to you nor me nor most of the folks on this forum. And it certainly wasn't to Kev. What is important is how does Kev deal with the bad hand that he has been dealt in a way that helps him heal and helps his marriage (he has stated he doesn't want a divorce) without betraying the religious principles by which have defined his life and himself as well.


----------



## EleGirl

altawa said:


> No, it hasn't been 'very few'. If it had been very few, it would have been written off as an anomaly. That isn't the case. And I agree about him cheating. But, heres the thing. Those people chastising him are conveniently ignoring a couple of things: 1) this is no different than when a BS finds out about his/her cheating spouse. They are knocked for a loop and can't think straight. They say lots of things. The reaction to that here has been to say he never valued his religion, and that he is using this as an excuse to do anything, instead of acknowledging the massive hurt he is going through and thinking 'gee, maybe he is venting because he is hurting so bad'. So, it instantly was blameshifted to him. 2) he has made subsequent posts saying that he was not going to cheat on her. It has only been acknowledged by a couple of people (me being one of them). There is a difference between offering advice and counsel (dont cheat on your wife, it makes you the lesser person, just divorce if it is going to come to that, etc.) and completely disregarding his religion as if it was nothing, fabricating excuses for the wife (which has been done i.e. she had to lie, all women have to lie, etc), then saying that his views on virginity mean nothing (I have seen that on this page alone, as well as repeatedly throughout this thread).






altawa said:


> Your outside views on forgiveness and redemption come off as saying that he needs to 'get over it'. That if he doesn't forgive her for this, he is not living up to his religion. This has been said by others as well.
> 
> His religion also says that this very transgression is grounds for divorce, so if he doesn't get over it, is he then not living up to his religion?


Outside views? What do you mean by “outside views”?

There are over 30,000 sects of Protestantism. We don’t’ know which one the OP believes in. According to him, in his beliefs there are no justification for divorce. 

When it comes to religion there are many facets to consider. It’s seldom that one passage stands alone. A religious person who is thoughtful will contemplate all related scripture. If you want interpret people bringing up alternatives points of view to the OP so that he has the opportunity to contemplate them as attacking his religion, that’s your problem. 

Anyone who has worked through forgiveness and redemption knows that it has nothing to do with “just getting over it”. It would be a lot of hard work for both him and his wife. 

I will repeat this again: The OP will make up his own mind. All anyone here can do is to give their input and thoughts.


----------



## Personal

Sigh.

At the end of the day he has to make a choice. He can either reconcile this or not.

If kevin1986 decides not to get over this and reconcile with his wife, it is highly likely he will end up divorced.

If kevin1986 decides not to get over this and cheats on his wife, it is highly likely he will end up divorced.

If kevin1986 decides to get over this and reconciles with his wife, it is likely he will remain married.

Where he ends up in part is up to him, if he thinks his wife will let herself continue to be a punching bag over this in the longer term. It is likely he will find himself to be mistaken.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with kevin1986 ending his marital relationship if he is unable to reconcile with his wife.

There is also absolutely nothing wrong with kevin1986 potentially saving his marital relationship if he is able to reconcile with his wife.

That said, there is plenty wrong with kevin1986 if he chooses to become an adulterer.

All else is largely superfluous, he either wants to remain married to his wife or he doesn't. If he doesn't, he will cheat on her and or not get over this. If he does, he'll have to get over it before his wife reaches a point that she can no longer live with a man who is having a temper tantrum.


----------



## EleGirl

altawa said:


> You're the one that said you werent doing it.


I was not making fun of his religion.

I was joking with a friend of mine. Sometimes humor helps. Humor is not always about actually making fun of things. It can be about lighting up the discussion.


----------



## EleGirl

Nucking Futs said:


> That's pretty funny coming from the person who posted this.


I made a joke and the poster objected to my joke.

You and that other poster were not joking around.


----------



## Personal

As to life not being fair, I concur it isn't! So the sooner some realise that they ought to get over it (whatever the it at the time is) the better off they will be.


----------



## Decorum

The OP is in a bad place, Christian or not, so I am glad he is re-thinking cheating.

It's obvious his core is shaken. His well being is number one, but I do wonder now (as it has been suggested) if there is some other darker reason for all this drama, is he (or was he) trying to justify cheating?

Keven can you honestly tell us, were you already feeling a pull to "step out" when this info came along?

BTW I have no doubt that you actually feel strongly about marrying a virgin, I am just asking if at this time in your life when this came out were you being tempted toward cheating already?


Another BTW; there are so many good posters here, ...well Gosh let me start it, ... everyone join hands... "Kum ba yah"....:yay: ray: :yay: ray: :yay:


----------



## vellocet

Personal said:


> As to life not being fair, I concur it isn't! So the sooner some realise that they ought to get over it (whatever the it at the time is) the better off they will be.


Yup, there it is. He needs to just get over it. F him, right?


----------



## Nucking Futs

EleGirl said:


> I made a joke and the poster objected to my joke.
> 
> You and that other poster were not joking around.


I'm not joking around when I say I want a polygraph and dna test to be _all the consequences she faces, _assuming she passes of course_._ You seem to have interpreted that to mean execution. Maybe you could explain your line of reasoning there.


----------



## Dogbert

A truly religious person does not get to pick and choose like an all-you-can-eat buffet which parts he/she likes and which he/she doesn't. Like being pregnant, you can't be half pregnant and likewise, you can't be half religious. You either are or your not.


----------



## Q tip

Q tip said:


> OP has to think through his options. running off and cheating will not help and adds no value.
> 
> he needs to lay all the facts out to himself. look, learn, speak to elders and gain some wisdom beyond his years for guidance.
> 
> mothers, grandmothers can help too. likely, they've seen it all. also her mother and father if he can. if not, then with wise men he trusts and respects.


OP, I am just repeating this. I hope you see some value with this advice.


----------



## vellocet

Dogbert said:


> A truly religious person does not get to pick and choose like an all-you-can-eat buffet which parts he/she likes and which he/she doesn't.


Yes, they do. Anyone gets to choose what they want and don't want.

If he wants someone like him who does not have the experience of premarital sex, let alone a 3some and ONS(and who knows what else), that is his right.

She knew this. She kept it from him to deny him a choice. Simple as that.

And now he has to be the one to deal with it. Does he leave? Or does he go on and put on a happy face for the sake of the family while he is reeling inside?


----------



## Personal

vellocet said:


> Yup, there it is. He needs to just get over it. *F him, right?*


No! Not F him. That said, for his own health regardless of whether he remains married to his wife or not he ought to get over it.


----------



## vellocet

Personal said:


> No! Not F him. That said, for his own health regardless of whether he remains married to his wife or not he ought to get over it.


Oh I'm sure in time he can get over it....but never completely. There will always be that unsatisfying feeling deep down inside that he will just have to keep bottled up if he wants to keep his family intact.

So with that, kev, like Nucking said, ask her to take a poly as to just how much she has lied to you. And just to be sure, make sure that in the 7 years you've been married she hasn't so much as flirted with another guy.


----------



## MattMatt

larry.gray said:


> What is it that sets you off about this story Matt? Usually you're a decent poster. Insead you mock, ridicule and now throw out straw men.
> 
> If you can't be helpful you should at least go away.


_What I see is someone who is looking for an excuse to cheat_.

*In my opinion, either He forgives her, or he divorces her. No other option exists. No other option is acceptable, if it involves sleeping around for revenge.*

And Larry, I'll leave TAM when, or if, if I decide to. But thank for the advice.


----------



## vellocet

MattMatt said:


> Gosh. We seem to have an overflowing of BACs in this thread. (Burn All Cheaters)


She cheated?


----------



## MattMatt

vellocet said:


> She cheated?


No. But to read some of the posts you would think she cheated.


----------



## Thor

Dogbert said:


> What is important is how does Kev deal with the bad hand that he has been dealt in a way that helps him heal and helps his marriage (he has stated he doesn't want a divorce) without betraying the religious principles by which have defined his life and himself as well.


True. But... Kevin has stated that he *won't* divorce his wife, not that he *doesn't want* to divorce her.

Until he accepts divorce as a possible outcome, he has little to no power in this situation to improve it. And therein is a central problem. He now knows he had no power in the original decision to marry her because she took all the power of his choice from him. He knows he has no power to ever get back what he thought he had in his marriage. He was at a significant disadvantage in his dealings with her friends and family for all those years because they knew something he didn't. He was at a major disadvantage wrt the others she had sex with.

Now he feels he has no power to rectify the situation in any way consistent with his belief system. He sees no action he can take which will do anything to change his wife's attitudes or to reclaim power within the relationship.

Knowing that divorce is a possibility, though very much not the desired outcome, is the only way to gain an equal standing to effect positive changes.


----------



## bfree

I think Kevin should just hurry up and make a decision so the posters in his thread will stop arguing.


----------



## larry.gray

soccermom2three said:


> One thing I learned on TAM is that a woman should NEVER reveal her sexual past. Some men just can't handle hearing it. Should she tell him that she wasn't a virgin? Yes, but that should be the end of it. IMO, upon hearing that his SO isn't a virgin, a secure man would think, "Well then I'm going to rock her world so she forgets every other man she's been with." Unfortunately, that's not what we get here at TAM, we get "Oh noes" instead.


I for one wouldn't like that answer. I would want to know, and would make up my mind at that point. I don't want secrets.
What would work for me at 22 is very different today. Little would scare me away now save for cheating.


----------



## oneMOreguy

This discussion is outrageous. Both from a secular and a religious perspective.

I suppose in the minds of some, they somehow imagine that by marrying a virgin, they are marrying someone who is pure in mind and spirit. Must be quite a rush to think about being "pure" and marrying someone "pure" and then running off to have a great "pure" life together. 

Well.......in all of my Christian upbringing I have come to understand......we are all sinners, and are sinful and impure creatures. We only differ in the ways we are sinful and impure. For those who call his wife impure and deceitful.....go ahead and look in the mirror....so are you. Does that make you a horrible person who is destined to go to the devil?? No...of course not. But don't lie to yourself either.

The OPs now wife did indeed lie and deceive her husband before the marriage. That is a fact. He also found out the truth in a very hurtful way........that has to be very hard. But in Christianity, the path is always very hard. Doing what is "right" is usually the most difficult path. The OP now has to decide whether to take an easy path or a most difficult path. 

This discussion is not at all about the wife and her sins. It is about the husband and his future path. His wife is a sinner....so is mine....and so is the spouse of each of you. How Christian is it for all of us to have the audacity to suggest that some sins are more tolerable that others to God? I actually am very saddened by some of the posts on here. I am presuming that their marriage was in a church and blessed by God. I guess that I am just old fashioned enough to think that is important.

Ok...rant off. For some reason this one just hit me in that certain spot.


----------



## larry.gray

turnera said:


> Look, I feel for the OP; he was sold a bill of goods. And only he can decide his future; he has a *repentat* GOOD wife (by his admission) who's been a great partner. If he wants to throw it all away because of that, that's the risk she took hiding it from him.


Repentant?
Repentant people don't line up their sisters to tell you to "get over your rediculous views"


----------



## larry.gray

MattMatt said:


> _What I see is someone who is looking for an excuse to cheat_.


So you had option A and option B

Option A: explain how you had an RA and what a mistake it was.

Option B: mock the OP and his values. 

A would have been helpful, instead you went with B. 



MattMatt said:


> And Larry, I'll leave TAM when, or if, if I decide to. But thank for the advice.


I meant just this thread, since normally you are helpful. Since this poster riles you up I'm suggesting it would be better to stay off this particular one.


----------



## GusPolinski

soccermom2three said:


> *One thing I learned on TAM is that a woman should NEVER reveal her sexual past.* Some men just can't handle hearing it. Should she tell him that she wasn't a virgin? Yes, but that should be the end of it. IMO, upon hearing that his SO isn't a virgin, a secure man would think, "Well then I'm going to rock her world so she forgets every other man she's been with." Unfortunately, that's not what we get here at TAM, we get "Oh noes" instead.


I say tell him right away. Obviously not on the first date or anything, but, if he asks, tell him. If he can't handle it, dump him, because he's not the guy for you.

Barring something like a crazy high number or sexual deviancy, I wouldn't judge a potential partner for her sexual past, but, if she refused to discuss it at all, I'd view that pretty suspiciously.


----------



## Dogbert

vellocet said:


> Yes, they do. Anyone gets to choose what they want and don't want.


Then he/she is not religious but a hypocrite.



> If he wants someone like him who does not have the experience of premarital sex, let alone a 3some and ONS(and who knows what else), that is his right.
> 
> She knew this. She kept it from him to deny him a choice. Simple as that.
> 
> And now he has to be the one to deal with it. Does he leave? Or does he go on and put on a happy face for the sake of the family while he is reeling inside?


You're late to the party. Believe it or not, we know that already, so please no more preaching to the choir.

As far as wanting something from life and not getting it, well what can I say, that's life. You and I and almost everybody here has gotten our share of raw deals. Not fair? You damn right it's not fair but that is one of the sh!tty things we have to deal with as human beings. We can either make the best of it and move on or we can remain angry and bitter until we die. Yeah it sucks to be us sometimes.

Lastly, Kevin has made his choice to remain married, for the time being anyway, why not offer him advice and support to help him and his marriage?


----------



## MattMatt

larry.gray said:


> So you had option A and option B
> 
> Option A: explain how you had an RA and what a mistake it was.
> 
> Option B: mock the OP and his values.
> 
> A would have been helpful, instead you went with B.
> 
> 
> 
> I meant just this thread, since normally you are helpful. Since this poster riles you up I'm suggesting it would be better to stay off this particular one.


Larry, I did not mean to have a RA. I was hurting, confused and pretty much drunk most days for a long, long time.

I drifted into a stupid RA. Kevin wants to leap into one, or a series of them.

And despite what you have convinced yourself* I was not mocking Kevin's religious values. *

*Everything I said to Kevin in the context of his religious values was meant in earnest.*


----------



## EleGirl

GusPolinski said:


> I say tell him right away. Obviously not on the first date or anything, but, if he asks, tell him. If he can't handle it, dump him, because he's not the guy for you.
> 
> Barring something like a crazy high number or sexual deviancy, I wouldn't judge a potential partner for her sexual past, but, if she refused to discuss it at all, I'd view that pretty suspiciously.


Not one man in my real life has ever asked me about the extent of my sex life prior to them.

Most of the women who post here on TAM have had that kind of question asked of them. 

After all the threads on TAM about this, I've asked a lot of women I know in real life if they have ever been asked this. Not one of them has.

Now this is different from having talks and bringing up a few things. 

After the things I've read men say on TAM, I'd be concerned that any man who asked me to about how people I've had sex with would use my answer against me down the line. It would not matter if it was 1, 2, 10, 25, or 100, etc. It would eventually turn into a demand for an inventory of every sex act I've ever had and that I owed it to this new guy no matter if it hate it, it hurts, and so forth.


The threads and posts on TAM where men talk about this is seriously scaring the woman who read them. I know this because it has been discussed quite a bit among the women. And it's not because the women have high numbers, it the judgment and demands that are talked about.

If a man were to ask me how man men I'd had sex with in my life, I would just end the relationship. To me, this is now a red flag. Start asking for inventories and full lists... with the idea that if I forgot something I'm then a liar... oh no, not even going there.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

This one isn't that hard. It may be painful to the OP, but it's not hard to figure out what course to take. If I was the OP, here is what I would do.


Do I feel that my wife loves me?
Does she go all out and "rock my world" from a sexual standpoint, or do I get the bare minimum in participation and enthusiasm?
Has she engaged in sexuality with me with the same mindset to want to explore each other and try a wide variety of marriage friendly activities because we are madly in love with each other? Or does she seriously curtail the variety when it comes to sex and she's "boring in bed"?
Is she a good mother?
Is she a good provider/caretaker of the house?
Do we converse well together and get along as friends?
Do we share intimate moments outside the bedroom like hand holding, gazing at each other or frequent hugs, kisses and cuddling?

There are a slew of other traits to look at of course, but I tried to key on the ones that center around sex and intimacy. The whole focus of this thread is about sex - is he good enough? Does she think of past lovers? Did she think he was a nice guy for support, but she had more fun with the bad boys? If the answer is that she goes all out for him on the fronts of sexual and non-sexual intimacy, then I think he needs to figure out how to cope with the lies - because his wife is both attracted to him and deeply loves him. 

OTOH, if she is only OK in the intimacy dept, but he really wanted more and he knows that she had a much more wild side prior to him on the intimacy front then he needs to figure out if his wife is not all that attracted to him and thinks of him as a nice guy provider.

Third thing to consider is maybe his wife isn't that into him now and she gives him the mediocre sex. But after this blow up she decided to up her game. Toughest of the 3 to decipher, because is she upping her game because she loves him but was taking him for granted or is she merely trying to secure her association with OP and the current standard of living?

In short, if he feels that his wife gives her all to the marriage to the best of her abilities, then he needs to figure out how to cope with this. If he feels she holds back on him and that she cut loose more for the bad boys and not him, then he needs to figure out if his wife is not that into him from the get go, and if he needs to find someone who really is into him from an intimacy standpoint.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

EleGirl said:


> Not one man in my real life has ever asked me about the extent of my sex life prior to them.
> 
> Most of the women who post here on TAM have had that kind of question asked of them.
> 
> After all the threads on TAM about this, I've asked a lot of women I know in real life if they have ever been asked this. Not one of them has.
> 
> Now this is different from having talks and bringing up a few things.
> 
> After the things I've read men say on TAM, I'd be concerned that any man who asked me to about how people I've had sex with would use my answer against me down the line. It would not matter if it was 1, 2, 10, 25, or 100, etc. It would eventually turn into a demand for an inventory of every sex act I've ever had and that I owed it to this new guy no matter if it hate it, it hurts, and so forth.
> 
> 
> The threads and posts on TAM where men talk about this is seriously scaring the woman who read them. I know this because it has been discussed quite a bit among the women. And it's not because the women have high numbers, it the judgment and demands that are talked about.
> 
> If a man were to ask me how man men I'd had sex with in my life, I would just end the relationship. To me, this is now a red flag. Start asking for inventories and full lists... with the idea that if I forgot something I'm then a liar... oh no, not even going there.


As a guy, I've asked the girls I dated for some of their history. Granted, it wasn't anything like a 20 page questionnaire or checklist that I whip out and ask item by item on. It's stuff that flows through normal conversation over the course of the relationship. I've found that people tend to be naturally curious about pasts in order to figure out what they are getting themselves into. Also, I was younger back then and it was probably a bigger deal to know what I was getting into. If I had to go back into the dating pool, I'd have a different mindset now than back then. Number of partners wouldn't be nearly as big of a deal, but as larry pointed out earlier I would want to know details on why you divorced (if applicable) and also why didn't you get married? I'm not very old (40), but old enough to know that anyone I would date within my age bracket will undoubtedly have a past. But at this age, too little of a past would be just as bad as way too much of one. Who would want a 40 year old virgin? Just as unappealing as the lady that may be in the triple digits. I'd also want to know what their view on sex is - mostly 1) do you enjoy having it frequently and 2) do you believe in keeping it between just two people at all times. 

Honestly, if someone likes sex and wants to do it frequently, chances are they are not into the barest of vanilla sex. I'm guessing multiple positions, oral, possibly anal, lingerie, some toys and maybe light bondage would be on the table. If they're not high on doing it frequently, then most likely the variety is not high up there either.


----------



## ConanHub

oneMOreguy said:


> This discussion is outrageous. Both from a secular and a religious perspective.
> 
> I suppose in the minds of some, they somehow imagine that by marrying a virgin, they are marrying someone who is pure in mind and spirit. Must be quite a rush to think about being "pure" and marrying someone "pure" and then running off to have a great "pure" life together.
> 
> Well.......in all of my Christian upbringing I have come to understand......we are all sinners, and are sinful and impure creatures. We only differ in the ways we are sinful and impure. For those who call his wife impure and deceitful.....go ahead and look in the mirror....so are you. Does that make you a horrible person who is destined to go to the devil?? No...of course not. But don't lie to yourself either.
> 
> The OPs now wife did indeed lie and deceive her husband before the marriage. That is a fact. He also found out the truth in a very hurtful way........that has to be very hard. But in Christianity, the path is always very hard. Doing what is "right" is usually the most difficult path. The OP now has to decide whether to take an easy path or a most difficult path.
> 
> This discussion is not at all about the wife and her sins. It is about the husband and his future path. His wife is a sinner....so is mine....and so is the spouse of each of you. How Christian is it for all of us to have the audacity to suggest that some sins are more tolerable that others to God? I actually am very saddened by some of the posts on here. I am presuming that their marriage was in a church and blessed by God. I guess that I am just old fashioned enough to think that is important.
> 
> Ok...rant off. For some reason this one just hit me in that certain spot.


Christian here too. My wife is a sinner but didn't lie to land me. Confused?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dogbert

*(This comment is for Kevin ONLY so please no replies)*

Kevin, 

Although on the surface it seems that we may be unsympathetic to your situation, we are definitely not - well at least I can speak for myself. You are were we were just a few years back. Some of us made mistakes after D-Day but we hope that you will be stronger and avoid them altogether.

You have every frickin right to be PO by your wife's lies and deceit regarding her sexual past. And just like adultery, there is no justification. Don't allow your wife or her friend and family to tell you differently.

You must also convey to your wife that until she can show you true remorse and a commitment to change her mindset from one that allowed for lies and deception to one that only allows truth and honesty, that the marriage will be limping along with a wound that will not heal. You will heal but the marriage won't.

You were handed a raw deal, that is undeniable. So have I and so have the rest of the people here. But I refuse to have my raw deal define me or my future. And so should you.

Adversity is often not just a test of a person's faith in God but a process to strengthen the mind, body and soul to serve as a living testament to others, especially our children.


----------



## ConanHub

Good stuff Dog person. &#55357;&#56842;
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## tacoma

vellocet said:


> Well what other conclusion can we come to?


One that is based upon what I have actually posted instead of whatever fits your pre-conceived idea of my thoughts.




> Counseling? Actually, you haven't implied at all what you think he should/could do.


Indeed I have, you would have to actually read the words I've posted before passing judgement.



> Obviously certain posters here think he is being unreasonable. So he should just take his unreasonableness and suck it up, and be content with not being content.


I haven't seen that at all but don't let reality get in the way of your beliefs.
You're perfectly entitled to project whatever you like onto the motivations of anyone here regardless of the facts.


----------



## tacoma

vellocet said:


> And now he has to be the one to deal with it. Does he leave? Or does he go on and put on a happy face for the sake of the family while he is reeling inside?


This is the problem with your posts in this thread.

You act as if these are his only options when I and others have shown through words and experience that he has many more than what is available in your black & white measure of this.


----------



## oneMOreguy

ConanHub said:


> oneMOreguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> This discussion is outrageous. Both from a secular and a religious perspective.
> 
> I suppose in the minds of some, they somehow imagine that by marrying a virgin, they are marrying someone who is pure in mind and spirit. Must be quite a rush to think about being "pure" and marrying someone "pure" and then running off to have a great "pure" life together.
> 
> Well.......in all of my Christian upbringing I have come to understand......we are all sinners, and are sinful and impure creatures. We only differ in the ways we are sinful and impure. For those who call his wife impure and deceitful.....go ahead and look in the mirror....so are you. Does that make you a horrible person who is destined to go to the devil?? No...of course not. But don't lie to yourself either.
> 
> The OPs now wife did indeed lie and deceive her husband before the marriage. That is a fact. He also found out the truth in a very hurtful way........that has to be very hard. But in Christianity, the path is always very hard. Doing what is "right" is usually the most difficult path. The OP now has to decide whether to take an easy path or a most difficult path.
> 
> This discussion is not at all about the wife and her sins. It is about the husband and his future path. His wife is a sinner....so is mine....and so is the spouse of each of you. How Christian is it for all of us to have the audacity to suggest that some sins are more tolerable that others to God? I actually am very saddened by some of the posts on here. I am presuming that their marriage was in a church and blessed by God. I guess that I am just old fashioned enough to think that is important.
> 
> Ok...rant off. For some reason this one just hit me in that certain spot.
> 
> 
> 
> Christian here too. My wife is a sinner but didn't lie to land me. Confused?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
Click to expand...

Did you miss my point or just ignoring it? All of us are impure going into a marriage. I don't think it is Christian to say her particular sin makes her an unacceptable spouse. The whole premise of his complaint is flawed from a religious perspective. From a human perspective I understand his pain. But if he is justifying his hurt with religion then he should really think this all the way through. 

And no...I am not at all confused. I have sadly followed all of this back and forth. Unless you are saying folks are confused unless they express specific opinions.


----------



## Thor

Dogbert said:


> Lastly, Kevin has made his choice to remain married, for the time being anyway, why not offer him advice and support to help him and his marriage?


He isn't responding to any of the suggestions. Makes me curious, as this topic is incendiary on the forum. Now we've got all kinds of members riled up against each other.

I would like to see some specific answers from Kevin to the many questions and suggestions provided by responders on this thread.


----------



## Dogbert

Thor said:


> He isn't responding to any of the suggestions. Makes me curious, as this topic is incendiary on the forum. Now we've got all kinds of members riled up against each other.
> 
> I would like to see some specific answers from Kevin to the many questions and suggestions provided by responders on this thread.


Care to summarize some of those specific questions?


----------



## Dogbert

EleGirl said:


> Not one man in my real life has ever asked me about the extent of my sex life prior to them.
> 
> Most of the women who post here on TAM have had that kind of question asked of them.
> 
> After all the threads on TAM about this, I've asked a lot of women I know in real life if they have ever been asked this. Not one of them has.
> 
> Now this is different from having talks and bringing up a few things.
> 
> After the things I've read men say on TAM, I'd be concerned that any man who asked me to about how people I've had sex with would use my answer against me down the line. It would not matter if it was 1, 2, 10, 25, or 100, etc. It would eventually turn into a demand for an inventory of every sex act I've ever had and that I owed it to this new guy no matter if it hate it, it hurts, and so forth.
> 
> 
> The threads and posts on TAM where men talk about this is seriously scaring the woman who read them. I know this because it has been discussed quite a bit among the women. And it's not because the women have high numbers, it the judgment and demands that are talked about.
> 
> If a man were to ask me how man men I'd had sex with in my life, I would just end the relationship. To me, this is now a red flag. Start asking for inventories and full lists... with the idea that if I forgot something I'm then a liar... oh no, not even going there.


Frankly I'm more interested in how much her head has been screwed with than how much she has been screwed with down below.


----------



## ConanHub

oneMOreguy said:


> Did you miss my point or just ignoring it? All of us are impure going into a marriage. I don't think it is Christian to say her particular sin makes her an unacceptable spouse. The whole premise of his complaint is flawed from a religious perspective. From a human perspective I understand his pain. But if he is justifying his hurt with religion then he should really think this all the way through.
> 
> And no...I am not at all confused. I have sadly followed all of this back and forth. Unless you are saying folks are confused unless they express specific opinions.


Lying about a value or prerequisite to fool someone into marriage has definite characteristics for determining if someone is worth staying married to. In Christianity or not.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thor

Dogbert said:


> Care to summarize some of those specific questions?


He's been asked about therapy, individual and marriage. The topic of faith based counseling has been raised. Someone suggested seeking counsel with a respected elder relative.

He's been asked what his wife has actually admitted to, and how she has responded to his conversations with her. He has been asked what specifically he was told by others.

Numerous books have been suggested.

What we get back is very little. Nothing specifically answering any questions, and no response to what he thinks of suggestions. No indication he has any plans to think about or implement any of the ideas presented.

Sometimes a new revelation is tossed into the discussion and left there for the members to _passionately discuss_.


----------



## tacoma

Thor said:


> Sometimes a new revelation is tossed into the discussion and left there for the members to *passionately discuss*.


You're far too kind.


----------



## Marduk

Thor said:


> He's been asked about therapy, individual and marriage. The topic of faith based counseling has been raised. Someone suggested seeking counsel with a respected elder relative.
> 
> He's been asked what his wife has actually admitted to, and how she has responded to his conversations with her. He has been asked what specifically he was told by others.
> 
> Numerous books have been suggested.
> 
> What we get back is very little. Nothing specifically answering any questions, and no response to what he thinks of suggestions. No indication he has any plans to think about or implement any of the ideas presented.
> 
> Sometimes a new revelation is tossed into the discussion and left there for the members to _passionately discuss_.


He's dealing with a simultaneous crisis of love, commitment, identity, and faith.

Cut him some slack.

All the pontificating on sexual political dynamics in current society would have sent me running to the hills, too.

This dude needs some real help. Not posturing.

Not aimed at you specifically, of course. You know the folks I mean.


----------



## Dogbert

Thor said:


> He's been asked about therapy, individual and marriage. The topic of faith based counseling has been raised. Someone suggested seeking counsel with a respected elder relative.
> 
> He's been asked what his wife has actually admitted to, and how she has responded to his conversations with her. He has been asked what specifically he was told by others.
> 
> Numerous books have been suggested.
> 
> What we get back is very little. Nothing specifically answering any questions, and no response to what he thinks of suggestions. No indication he has any plans to think about or implement any of the ideas presented.


Understood. Thanks.



> Sometimes a new revelation is tossed into the discussion and left there for the members to *passionately discuss*.


THAT is the understatement of the year.


----------



## MattMatt

Thor said:


> He isn't responding to any of the suggestions. Makes me curious, as this topic is incendiary on the forum. Now we've got all kinds of members riled up against each other.
> 
> I would like to see some specific answers from Kevin to the many questions and suggestions provided by responders on this thread.


Yes. As would I.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Openminded

This story sounds very familiar. Almost identical to one posted last year.


----------



## MattMatt

Openminded said:


> This story sounds very familiar. Almost identical to one posted last year.


Oh, really? Interesting.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dogbert

Openminded said:


> This story sounds very familiar. Almost identical to one posted last year.


Now that you mentioned it, I do recall one very similar just a few years ago when I was simply lurking about.


----------



## Openminded

Yes, I think something very similar has been here a couple of times at least.


----------



## oneMOreguy

ConanHub said:


> oneMOreguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Did you miss my point or just ignoring it? All of us are impure going into a marriage. I don't think it is Christian to say her particular sin makes her an unacceptable spouse. The whole premise of his complaint is flawed from a religious perspective. From a human perspective I understand his pain. But if he is justifying his hurt with religion then he should really think this all the way through.
> 
> And no...I am not at all confused. I have sadly followed all of this back and forth. Unless you are saying folks are confused unless they express specific opinions.
> 
> 
> 
> Lying about a value or prerequisite to fool someone into marriage has definite characteristics for determining if someone is worth staying married to. In Christianity or not.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
Click to expand...

We are kinda dancing around this issue. None of us really know what her values are going into the marriage. Maybe being around the OP caused her to truly regret her past. And persons change a lot as they mature. Only she knows. But i believe a person should be judged on the here and now...not past actions that they have moved away from. And I strongly believe that virginity vs non virginity does not determine suitability as a spouse from a Christian view. IMHO of course.

But of course she should not have deceived him. But now they are married with a child. And she has apparently been a good and loving spouse. What do you think Christ would truly say about this? Again. ..I can only offer my opinion. But redemption does not only come from God. It is a gift he could offer to his wife in a loving way.


----------



## Dogbert

Found these threads from last year *Wife's past destroying my peace of mind...* and from 2012 *My wife lied about her past, what should I do?*. Rape seemed to have been the lie in both cases.


----------



## ConanHub

oneMOreguy said:


> We are kinda dancing around this issue. None of us really know what her values are going into the marriage. Maybe being around the OP caused her to truly regret her past. And persons change a lot as they mature. Only she knows. But i believe a person should be judged on the here and now...not past actions that they have moved away from. And I strongly believe that virginity vs non virginity does not determine suitability as a spouse from a Christian view. IMHO of course.
> 
> But of course she should not have deceived him. But now they are married with a child. And she has apparently been a good and loving spouse. What do you think Christ would truly say about this? Again. ..I can only offer my opinion. But redemption does not only come from God. It is a gift he could offer to his wife in a loving way.


We are probably being played anyway but you are missing my point. You disqualified yourself if you lied to get someone to marry you.

She hasn't changed her view one bit. The ends justify the means in her book. This radically different view on sex, lying and manipulation is going to seriously impact their marriage going forward especially when raising children.
_Posted via Mobile Device_

Agree with you on forgiveness BTW. It would help a little if she was repentant yes?


----------



## oneMOreguy

Yes. I had not picked up on that aspect. But we are only hearing him....and he is feeling badly hurt right now and trashing about. She probably has a somewhat different story to tell. I believe his true issue is how much it hurt to find out in the manner he did. I would react very poorly to that.


----------



## loveisforever

turnera said:


> I lied. To protect myself from what I expected from him based on what my previous fiance did to me. Does that make me a selfish piece of garbage? I've stood by my controlling, near-abusive, self-absorbed husband for 35 years, doing 99% of all housework while working full time, 90% of all child raising, 75% of all external housework, traveling with him on his business trips, letting him make all decisions, going on vacations where HE wanted to go, always doing things his way, never standing up to him for 30+ years, making sure all his needs are met...but I lied. When we were dating. About my # of guys before him.
> 
> Huh. So this is what a selfish piece of garbage feels like.


Actually， Turnea, you do not set up a good role model for anyone to follow here. You have been treating yourself as a piece of garbage! Nothing to be proud of. Do not mislead others to go down that road as you. That is selfish.


----------



## loveisforever

A lie is a lie. A betrayal is a betrayal. Do not label them as love. They do not come from love. They come from selfishness!


----------



## Dogbert

loveisforever said:


> turnera said:
> 
> 
> 
> View Post
> I lied. To protect myself from what I expected from him based on what my previous fiance did to me. Does that make me a selfish piece of garbage? I've stood by my controlling, near-abusive, self-absorbed husband for 35 years, doing 99% of all housework while working full time, 90% of all child raising, 75% of all external housework, traveling with him on his business trips, letting him make all decisions, going on vacations where HE wanted to go, always doing things his way, never standing up to him for 30+ years, making sure all his needs are met...but I lied. When we were dating. About my # of guys before him.
> 
> Huh. So this is what a selfish piece of garbage feels like.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually， Turnea, you do not set up a good role model for anyone to follow here. You have been treating yourself as a piece of garbage! Nothing to be proud of. Do not mislead others to go down that road as you. That is selfish.
Click to expand...




loveisforever said:


> Last night, when she was away, I found my email account left open in her i-touch. She is secretly watching me, but giving no clues about it. I deleted it and changed my password. When she was back, she was mad and accused me of controlling. She raised her voice and talked to me like scolding a baby. I tried to force an boundary and told her to stop talking like this. She talked even louder. I threw one piece of paper to show my disapproval. She was in rage and tried to grab my laptop that I was working on. *I ended with a fight with her. She threatened to call police. I threatened to kill her if her dared. She ran out of the door and keep screaming.* My son was frightened and told me," Dad, although I like you to stay here, but you had better leave now to avoid things get worse." So I had to leave to my office to escape the scene. This was a typical game of chicken between us and I ended up being a loser, always.
> 
> As I understand her better now, her rage normally lasts for 1 to 2 hours. So I drove back home in midnight. When I use the key to open the door, she had a childish behavior try to block me inside. Although she tried to look angry, she had a smile on her face. After I satisfying her by allowing her to kick me in the leg several times, I was allowed to go to sleep.
> 
> In the next morning, she went to my room and asked me to ski together. I refused. She was upset, and repeated her tricks to make me uncomfortable: While I am sleeping in bed, she pulled the comforter away from me to get me cold, put away my pillows, open the windows in this winter... Of course, all the while, she dumped her unpleasure to me loudly by accusing me lots of things, some of it I will be embarrassed to let my son overhear it: like I am not a good father, it is my fault for last night's fight, I do not care about my son, my son will hate me and hit me (my son does hit me afterwards in playful ways to please his mom), I just want sex with her and she is happy to shut me down, I only care about sex, I am watching porns...
> 
> I hate myself for not being able to divorce her sooner and can not stop caring about her.


My my the pot calling the kettle black.


----------



## Decorum

Thor said:


> He isn't responding to any of the suggestions. Makes me curious, as this topic is incendiary on the forum. Now we've got all kinds of members riled up against each other.
> 
> I would like to see some specific answers from Kevin to the many questions and suggestions provided by responders on this thread.


Good point Thor.

Eric's thread caused quite a bit of polarizing dialog, name calling, question of peoples motives and challenging their support. Like a circular firing squad.

Let the Op decide what meets the need of the moment, and leave it at that. Personally I think opposing viewpoints can serve an op very well, often they reflect the boundaries on ether side of the issue.

I suspect that Keven is seeing some of the darkness of his own heart and is struggling to face it. Hopefully he will find the truth in the inner person and will honestly deal with the situation.

"Behold, You desire truth in the innermost being, And in the hidden part You will make me know wisdom" Pm 51:6


----------



## Wolfman1968

Dogbert said:


> There is another very important part of the story that is missing from your comments.
> 
> He has stated that he now wants to "separate", not divorce, to play the field and then return to being a married man after he has gotten it out of his system. How interesting that a man who doesn't believe in pre-marital sex, now believes in a one sided open marriage to even the score.
> 
> What kind of person can claim to be deeply religious and then turn around and be willing to betray those beliefs that he has used to define himself simply because now life has handed him a raw deal? What kind of person uses his wife's betrayal to justify a pre-meditated betrayal of God?


That's why I said I didn't care about the religious argument. It's kind of a red herring, as far as I am concerned.

He is being a jerk with this play the field/revenge affair business. But I'm not going to argue whether or not it is compatible with his religion, because I think the religious aspect is all irrelevant. For what it's worth, I think he just wants to get back at her.

That doesn't change what I said, however. She's still willing to betray what her husband values most for her own selfish purposes. I couldn't trust that.


----------



## Wolfman1968

turnera said:


> I lied. To protect myself from what I expected from him based on what my previous fiance did to me. Does that make me a selfish piece of garbage? I've stood by my controlling, near-abusive, self-absorbed husband for 35 years, doing 99% of all housework while working full time, 90% of all child raising, 75% of all external housework, traveling with him on his business trips, letting him make all decisions, going on vacations where HE wanted to go, always doing things his way, never standing up to him for 30+ years, making sure all his needs are met...but I lied. When we were dating. About my # of guys before him.
> 
> Huh. So this is what a selfish piece of garbage feels like.


I don't know if it was as important to your husband as it was to the OP.

If it was, then that WAS selfish. And if I was lied to by you over a deal-breaker kind of topic like for the OP, then I would never be able to trust you again . (My deal-breakers are not the same as the OP, but the principle is the same.)

That doesn't mean your husband couldn't be selfish too. Maybe you both are. I don't know. Doesn't change how I feel about being lied to.


----------



## Wolfman1968

norajane said:


> She isn't a WW. She didn't cheat on Kevin.
> 
> 
> 
> She didn't cheat on him, and she didn't make him stay up until 3am wondering where she was and whether she was cheating on him.


No, but she betrayed him nonetheless. There are ways to betray besides just having a physical affair.

Some of them are even worse than a physical affair.


----------



## Wolfman1968

EleGirl said:


> Yes you are judge and executioner here fabricating 'evidence'.
> 
> At this point there is not reason to believe that she has cheated. So why on earth are you trying so hard to accuse her of doing someone no one has evidence of.
> 
> The attacks on his wife on this thread are beyond the pale.
> 
> From what we have been told, she lied about her virginity. That's it. Let's to fabricate sins/crimes that do not exist.


That's enough. For THIS PARTICULAR POSTER, that's enough.

For most guys, that would be no big deal, or forgivable. But for the OP, Kevin, that was one of the most important things in his life when choosing a spouse.

Trust is gone. Absolutely.


----------



## Wolfman1968

Dogbert said:


> I ate the last of the caramel waffle cone ice cream and lied to my girlfriend about it. Now she's accusing me of being a no good, lying, cheating POS. I guess now I'll have to take a poly and provide a stool sample to prove my innocence.


Are you telling me that the caramel waffle ice-cream cone is a deal breaker for your girlfriend? Never heard of such a thing.

You're just being demeaning to the OP by trivializing his values.


----------



## Wolfman1968

EleGirl said:


> No one is defending her as being totally honest.
> 
> We are only saying to not start fabricating crimes and sins.
> 
> If she were a habitual liar who lies about a lot of things, the OP would have seen this.
> 
> I know a few people who are liars.. they lie about everything. If the OP's wife were like this, he'd know. He's have more situations in which he caught her lying.
> 
> So to our knowledge, she has lied about one thing. And now that he's confronted her she has opened up about that.


But that one thing was, as far as I can tell from the OP, the MOST IMPORTANT (or at least near the top) THING IN HIS VALUE SYSTEM. It was so much so, that he lived it himself, despite opportunities to do otherwise.

It's one thing to lie about an insignificant issue. But if it is THE SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT THING TO THE PERSON YOU SUPPOSEDLY LOVE, and you betray that for your own selfish purposes, you have shown how little you can be trusted.


----------



## Wolfman1968

kevin1986 said:


> so what most of you are suggesting is that, her past doesnt matter? and i should just move on? i cant divorce her because shes the mother of my child. am just stuck.





tacoma said:


> By OP's own admission she's been a good wife and partner for those 7 years, she is the mother of his child.


I see where he says he is "stuck" because he has a kid with her (not usually a way to describe a good marriage).

I didn't see where he said she's been a good wife and partner. Can you quote that part? The thread's getting long.


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## Coffee Amore

There are way too many reports for this thread. Too much sniping too. After 48 pages, I think the OP has received enough advice from which to make a decision. Thread closed.


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