# Less obvious red flags when getting to know people.



## Enigma32 (Jul 6, 2020)

Having a discussion with a friend and I got to thinking about this. When you're single and on the hunt for a partner/date, what specific red flags do you look out for? One thing I always do is (over) analyze whatever pics she has posted on social media or OLD. I try to avoid the catfish so if most or all her pics are filtered, I'll pass. I also prefer ladies that smile in their pics since a nice smile just speaks to me. What does everyone else have?


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## Gregory Chaucery (12 mo ago)

Old boyfriend who gets repeated is a good one.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

How they treat serving staff in a restaurant or bar.


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## gameopoly5 (5 mo ago)

Recognising red flags in people situations can only come with experience.
I`m an older guy now but back in my younger days I often failed to see red flags.
One example, I had strong feelings for a girl who lived in my housing complex.
We went out often together with at most times me footing the bill.
After 6 months of not even receiving a kiss from her I learned about how women can place guys in friend mode, so realising dating her was a waste of time I called time. 
But as my old wise granddad used to say; fools never listen to good advice or use common sense, they only learn by experience and I was one of those naive fools back in my day.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

gameopoly5 said:


> Recognising red flags in people situations can only come with experience.
> I`m an older guy now but back in my younger days I often failed to see red flags.
> One example, I had strong feelings for a girl who lived in my housing complex.
> We went out often together with at most times me footing the bill.
> ...


The three date rule would have stood you in good stead lol.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Bad teeth


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## Gregory Chaucery (12 mo ago)

In Absentia said:


> Bad teeth


I would put that under whether they are taking care of themselves. If they can't make proper presentation, within what they have, how can they take care of you?


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Gregory Chaucery said:


> I would put that under whether they are taking care of themselves. If they can't make proper presentation, within what they have, how can they take care of you?


I just don't like bad teeth. They put me off massively. 

EDIT: of course this is not a "less obvious" red flag, unless the potential date never smiles...


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

If they can't carry a conversation.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

If they have poor personal hygiene, so they don’t shower or brush their teeth.


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## elliblue (7 mo ago)

gameopoly5 said:


> Recognising red flags in people situations can only come with experience.
> I`m an older guy now but back in my younger days I often failed to see red flags.
> One example, I had strong feelings for a girl who lived in my housing complex.
> We went out often together with at most times me footing the bill.
> ...


No, your problem is, you think women are sex objects. If you would have looked at her as a real person and were interessted in her you would first have recognised wether or not you two are compatible. You dumbed her, because she wouldn't let you get physical. What a shallow character are you?

And if she was such shallow person to use you to get some food, why were you drown to such a woman?
And obviously you were not interessted in her as a human, just as something you can f***.
Wasn't she clever to not see you as a potential partner? 

She was young herself, maybe she didn't have money to pay and maybe she didn't realise you did fancy her.

I had a few of friends who were like that when we were young They were to be honest not very bright I have to admitt but that is why men were so into them. But becausre they were rather dumb they didn't understand the guys were after their pants. 
They always said 'Ohh, my best friend. He is my best friend' and I told them that thos isn't their friend, that the giys had a crush on them. And they were like 'Ooh, ooh noooo. We are best friends...'

Then soon or later the guys started gropping or kissing them and they got upset and confused as they didn't see it comming. The guys were upset as they felt they were entitled to do what they did after. I told them: 'told ya' and they just looked stupid at me. 

But men are always paranoid and think women are all viscious and plan to rob them and denie them what they want. 

Women are not running around feeling like sex objects for the male species, like porn tries to tell men. We are not p*** and boobs on legs. We have personality and other things we think about then attracting men.

And sometimes a woman want to hang out with a guy because he is funny. Doesn't nean we have to want to get f*** by him. 

OP, if you get that your on a good way to find a partner that is right for you.
It is not about looking out for red flaggs, rather to go and get to know a woman as a person and not a brainless sex object. 
You attract what is reflecting your own character. So don't blame the women who broke your heart in the past. Ask yourself what is it inside of you that attrackted you to those women.
The more balanced and confident you are the more attracted you'll be to people that are the same.
Doesn't matter if men or women. Sexual or not sexual. The people around you and who you want to be close to reflect who you are. 
If your not happy, work on your personality. The rest comes automatically.

Of you are seriously interessted in a woman male it clear why you hang out with her instead of runnung after her for months and years and later complain you invested in her and she didn't pay you back, like the example I quoted.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

gameopoly5 said:


> Recognising red flags in people situations can only come with experience.
> I`m an older guy now but back in my younger days I often failed to see red flags.
> One example, I had strong feelings for a girl who lived in my housing complex.
> We went out often together with at most times me footing the bill.
> ...


It is very difficult to teach the younger guys to have more self-respect then to be friend zoned. I suppose at that age blind hope is still strong. 🤣🤣🤣🤣


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

Numb26 said:


> It is very difficult to teach the younger guys to have more self-respect then to be friend zoned. I suppose at that age blind hope is still strong. 🤣🤣🤣🤣


I repeat. The three date rule😇


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## 342693 (Mar 2, 2020)

As I’ve gotten older, the red flag list has gotten much longer. That what makes dating difficult as we age. 

When you’re young, there really are no red flags. She just needs to be hot. But in my 50’s, my list is long.

Doesn’t make eye contact. Lives in the past (relationship wise). Has a negative personality. Is into material things. Bad grammar. Profanity. Not a fellow Christian. I could go on and on.


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

Initially:
-all they talk about is their kids (my kids are my world syndrome)
-have no same sex friends
-talks about her exs
-check out her SM life- orbiters, excessive posting, etc
Later on (date 3-5):
-prude/hard to her (don’t need another sexless relationship)
-any whiff of financial distress
-dishonesty even about little things
-isn’t responsive to calls/texts or doesn’t initiate them
-drama with family, especially parents (dad)


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

SCDad01 said:


> As I’ve gotten older, the red flag list has gotten much longer. That what makes dating difficult as we age.
> 
> When you’re young, there really are no red flags. She just needs to be hot. But in my 50’s, my list is long.
> 
> Doesn’t make eye contact. Lives in the past (relationship wise). Has a negative personality. Is into material things. Bad grammar. Profanity. Not a fellow Christian. I could go on and on.


This^^^^^^

When you’re 16, a potential mate just needs to look good.

At 20 they need to look good, talk you and make out/have sex with you. 

At 25 they also need to have some common sense, a few common interests, a means of supporting themselves and not be a complete lunatic, druggy, alcoholic etc.

At 30 they need to have some life skills, personable responsibility, be husband/wife and mother/father material and be able to handle all the tasks and responsibilities or daily living.

And so on and so on until by age 60 that list of criteria is so long for a permanent mate that many people don’t even bother anymore. If that 1 in ten million shows up on their doorstep, great! But otherwise they are good on their own so if anything they revert back to their teens where looking good and talking to them is good enough for a night.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

elliblue said:


> No, your problem is, you think women are sex objects. If you would have looked at her as a real person and were interessted in her you would first have recognised wether or not you two are compatible. You dumbed her, because she wouldn't let you get physical. What a shallow character are you?
> 
> And if she was such shallow person to use you to get some food, why were you drown to such a woman?
> And obviously you were not interessted in her as a human, just as something you can f***.
> ...


You’re looking at this all wrong and completely mistaken.

@gameopoly5 was absolutely NOT looking at her as a sex object. The fact that he spent 6 months in the friendzone not having sexual contact with her is the very proof of that.

Part of the growth and development that he was describing is in his learning that HE was the one being objectified and used.

Romance/sexuality IS a key component in a permanent mate, and recognizing that component is missing and not developing is a critical red flag to take notice of. 

You are off base here. He was not a sexual predator or womanizer. He recognized he was the one being used and exploited and that the relationship was not developing into long term potential.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

In Absentia said:


> I just don't like bad teeth. They put me off massively.
> 
> EDIT: of course this is not a "less obvious" red flag, unless the potential date never smiles...


Over here in the states, it is a possible sign of a meth problem. 😂


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

elliblue said:


> No, your problem is, you think women are sex objects. If you would have looked at her as a real person and were interessted in her you would first have recognised wether or not you two are compatible. You dumbed her, because she wouldn't let you get physical. What a shallow character are you?
> 
> And if she was such shallow person to use you to get some food, why were you drown to such a woman?
> And obviously you were not interessted in her as a human, just as something you can f***.
> ...


So basically you are saying he should not be looking for a romantic and physical relationship, otherwise he is some kind of sexual predator? Most young people, and older, don't date simply for companionship. They are also looking for a physical relationship.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

elliblue said:


> No, your problem is, you think women are sex objects. If you would have looked at her as a real person and were interessted in her you would first have recognised wether or not you two are compatible. You dumbed her, because she wouldn't let you get physical. What a shallow character are you?
> 
> And if she was such shallow person to use you to get some food, why were you drown to such a woman?
> And obviously you were not interessted in her as a human, just as something you can f***.
> ...


Wow. 

You are WAY out of line. 

Oh boo hoo!!! Men are looking at women again because they want sex! Oh the horror! 

The only thing you got right in your post was that the men hanging around your friends wanted them in a romantic way. I do find it funny when some (definitely not all) women think that a man wants to hang out with her a lot to be friends. Yeah, 99% of the time that is not the case. 

However, the vast majority of men do not feel entitled to sex. You just made that up due to a hatred of men, nothing more. No basis in fact. You are just making up stuff as you go. Those men were feeling something called “disappointment” and “rejection”. It’s called a human emotion. In case you didn’t know, men are human as well. 

They went ahead and took a chance and got turned down. You know, that “first move” that almost all women require of men to do? 

So next time you see man get turned down, remember this: you are most likely witnessing disappointment and rejection. This is not to be confused with entitlement.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Yeah he was. He just didn't have the confidence to try it.

We've all been in that situation when we're young. My story similar to this is I was friends with a local band and I ended up seriously dating one of them but was before and after friends with them all. The kind of friends who might come over to my apartment during my lunch break and have a sandwich.

After I wasn't dating the one anymore, I remain friends with another one and we got together every now and then. It wasn't what I would call dates but hanging out or watching a movie or something like that. Once in awhile going into a pizza buffet near where he lived.

He was the one who was the least successful with women in the band. I started to understand that the more I got to know him. He was the type who would orbit and observe and frequent where she worked instead of asking a woman out.

Just like I do on this forum I had talks with him about that kind of stuff.

I can't even tell you how many years I've known him when he put the moves on me during one of these visits but I was truly shocked.

And I wasn't some naive young thing but in my early thirties by then. I never thought he would because of his loyalty to the guy in the band I had dated. But he did. And I also found out eventually that he was kind of trying to make it look like we were dating to other people we knew including his friends in the band.

I never completely stopped being friends with him. I didn't see any reason to do that but I made clear that he was barking up the wrong tree.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

BigDaddyNY said:


> So basically you are saying he should not be looking for a romantic and physical relationship, otherwise he is some kind of sexual predator? Most young people, and older, don't date simply for companionship. They are also looking for a physical relationship.


You don't know that when you're young. It is human nature for people to think other people think the same way as they do.

Many many women have absolutely no problem being just friends with men. I had zero idea that many men would have trouble with that until I was probably over 50 because I did have men who were friends. Sure they may all want a sexual relationship with someone, just as most women do, but that doesn't mean to me that they all want a sexual relationship with every woman. But according to this forum there are guys who have absolutely no interest in women except if there is sex involved and I now believe that for those men. But fortunately my life has informed me that not all men are like that. My life was rich with guys who were not like that. 

So women have no reason to assume they can't be friends with a guy, because if it's a good guy and not one who is one note, they actually can.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

And I would add that sometimes friends buy friends lunch without it meaning anything. When I first moved to Dallas I had to start all over money-wise and literally could never afford to eat anything out. The gang I worked with ate lunch out once in a while. If they asked me to go I would just have to tell them I couldn't afford to making $2.50 an hour. And if they wanted me to go bad enough a couple of them would offer to buy my lunch. And those were guys.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> You don't know that when you're young. It is human nature for people to think other people think the same way as they do.
> 
> Many many women have absolutely no problem being just friends with men. I had zero idea that many men would have trouble with that until I was probably over 50 because I did have men who were friends. Sure they may all want a sexual relationship with someone, just as most women do, but that doesn't mean to me that they all want a sexual relationship with every woman. But according to this forum there are guys who have absolutely no interest in women except if there is sex involved and I now believe that for those men. But fortunately my life has informed me that not all men are like that. My life was rich with guys who were not like that.
> 
> So women have no reason to assume they can't be friends with a guy, because if it's a good guy and not one who is one note, they actually can.


Have you had any guys ask you out on a date, to say dinner or a movie, and you thought they just wanted to be friends? I would have thought being asked on a date implies that at some point you would be pursuing a physical relationship, or at least testing the waters to see if that is where you may want to try to take the relationship. In my mind I would only ask a woman out that sparked some kind of physical attraction. Maybe I wrongly assumed that is how most men are.

To expand my thinking. I can't ever see me asking a guy to go out for dinner or a movie, or something along those lines. I initiate hanging out with buddies differently than I would initiate going out with a woman. Does that make any sense? lol


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Have you had any guys ask you out on a date, to say dinner or a movie, and you thought they just wanted to be friends? I would have thought being asked on a date implies that at some point you would be pursuing a physical relationship, or at least testing the waters to see if that is where you may want to try to take the relationship. In my mind I would only ask a woman out that sparked some kind of physical attraction. Maybe a wrongly assumed that is how most men are.
> 
> To expand my thinking. I can't ever see me asking a guy to go out for dinner or a movie, or something along those lines. I initiate hanging out with buddies differently than I would initiate going out with a woman. Does that make any sense? lol


Sure, because I have had male friends. If a strange man asked me to dinner or a movie, I would assume that was a date. 

But I didn't go out with very many strange men on dates. And I can only think of one instance when a strange man that I only
talked to once asked me out on a date.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Sure, because I have had male friends. If a strange man asked me to dinner or a movie, I would assume that was a date.
> 
> But I didn't go out with very many strange men on dates. And I can only think of one instance when a strange man that I only
> talked to once asked me out on a date.


So your romantic relationships were mostly men you were already friends with? I assume that is the only way since you only had once instance of being asked out on a date from the get go. If this is the case then how did these guys go from asking you out to dinner or a movie as a friend, to asking you out on a date with romantic intent?


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

I also have a good example of a guy that I wasn't sure if he was trying to date me or be friends because we did work together but he gave me a lot of attention. He was extremely good looking so it would have been fine with me if he wanted to date me, but we ended up hanging out a lot.

Where we worked none of us may very much money at that time but he had a little money so he occasionally bought my dinner or lunch. We would go out of town to see concerts for bands we both loved. I remember one time we stayed overnight at a friend of mine's house and another city and I slept on the couch and he slept on a pallet beside the couch.

He asked me to go to six flags with him once and I did. I later started thinking that that invitation was trying to set me up with a friend of his because originally it was going to be the friend going too but then the friend backed out, and I just got some weird vibes around the whole thing like somebody was butthurt.

Anyway that guy and I remained friends even after we weren't working together until he started dating my ex bf's second wife and married her. That was 40 years ago. My ex recently told me he sees the guy at the hairdresser and he asked about me.

But he never made any moves and I don't think he was going to because I knew who he had a crush on at the time. And I was also interested in someone else. And he and I talked about all that.

Believe it or not there are some guys out there who just like a woman and like to talk to her and are interested in what she's doing and share common interests with her.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

BigDaddyNY said:


> So your romantic relationships were mostly men you were already friends with? I assume that is the only way since you only had once instance of being asked out on a date from the get go. If this is the case then how did these guys go from asking you out to dinner or a movie as a friend, to asking you out on a date with romantic intent?


Some of them stayed friends. I could always feel if there was a spark. With only one exception I can think of right this minute, the ones who were real friends mostly stayed that way. Then I might meet someone out somewhere and then see them again somewhere else and then romance developed.

Our crowd all hung out at the same places so that's how relationships developed, not so much just kind of asking someone out on a date cold.

I think that's a pretty good way. Certainly a lot better than online dating. You start off knowing you have something in common with them and a common interest so that it's easy to talk to people. Sometimes one or the other of you is already partnered up and maybe you take up an interest in them later when they're not.


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## cocolo2019 (Aug 21, 2019)

If you go to her Twitter account and her title says she/them.


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## Tdbo (Sep 8, 2019)

Enigma32 said:


> Having a discussion with a friend and I got to thinking about this. When you're single and on the hunt for a partner/date, what specific red flags do you look out for? One thing I always do is (over) analyze whatever pics she has posted on social media or OLD. I try to avoid the catfish so if most or all her pics are filtered, I'll pass. I also prefer ladies that smile in their pics since a nice smile just speaks to me. What does everyone else have?


1. Do they ever reach out, or am I the one doing all the calling?
2. Do they ever reciprocate? (and no, I'm not talking about sex.) Things like the woman cooking me a meal, packing a picnic, bringing me a coffee, a movie night at one of our residences, etc. Not necessarily large expensive things, but actions that show an interest, thoughtfulness and demonstrate that the potential relationship is not just one way.


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## snowbum (Dec 14, 2021)

I’d gladly cross off any guy that expected sex in date 3. I don’t have a dead trim and enjoy my husband but if I need to screws someone after essentially 36 hours of dating them to keep them? Bye.


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## harperlee (May 1, 2018)

DownByTheRiver said:


> *You don't know that when you're young. It is human nature for people to think other people think the same way as they do.
> 
> Many many women have absolutely no problem being just friends with men. *I had zero idea that many men would have trouble with that until I was probably over 50 because I did have men who were friends. Sure they may all want a sexual relationship with someone, just as most women do, but that doesn't mean to me that they all want a sexual relationship with every woman. But according to this forum there are guys who have absolutely no interest in women except if there is sex involved and I now believe that for those men. But fortunately my life has informed me that not all men are like that. My life was rich with guys who were not like that.
> 
> *So women have no reason to assume they can't be friends with a guy, because if it's a good guy and not one who is one note, they actually can.*


There is no doubt in my mind that women generally underestimate the sexual motivation of men; and that men overestimate that women are like-minded.
Good points DownByTheRiver.


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

snowbum said:


> I’d gladly cross off any guy that expected sex in date 3. I don’t have a dead trim and enjoy my husband but if I need to screws someone after essentially 36 hours of dating them to keep them? Bye.


As long as you make that clear from the start, I have no issues with it. You won’t find me paying for your meals though.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

RebuildingMe said:


> As long as you make that clear from the start, I have no issues with it. You won’t find me paying for your meals though.


Do you make it clear from the start that you expect sex by a certain point in time, or you’ll be moving on? And do you tell them that if you pay for dinner, you expect sex?

These are rhetorical questions.


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

minimalME said:


> Do you make it clear from the start that you expect sex by a certain point in time, or you’ll be moving on? And do you tell them that if you pay for dinner, you expect sex?
> 
> These are rhetorical questions.


For me, nothing is off the table when I meet a woman, including picking up the checks. However, if women have these hard and fast rules, they should make that clear. I don’t “expect” anything. Likewise, if I’m being precluded from something, I’d like to know.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

RebuildingMe said:


> As long as you make that clear from the start, I have no issues with it. You won’t find me paying for your meals though.


Same here. By the third date you know if it's going anywhere.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

minimalME said:


> Do you make it clear from the start that you expect sex by a certain point in time, or you’ll be moving on? And do you tell them that if you pay for dinner, you expect sex?
> 
> These are rhetorical questions.


It's not about expecting anything, it's about not wasting anyone's time and money on something that both people know isn't going anywhere.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

RebuildingMe said:


> For me, nothing is off the table when I meet a woman, including picking up the checks. However, if women has these hard and fast rules, they should make that clear. *I don’t “expect” anything.* Likewise, if I’m being precluded from something, I’d like to know.


This completely untrue.



Numb26 said:


> It's not about expecting anything, it's about not wasting anyone's time and money on something that both people know isn't going anywhere.


This is nonsense. ‘Going anywhere’ = you having sex.

If you have a timeline, then you have expectations.


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## Not (Jun 12, 2017)

Red flags…..

Bragging. Just no.

I understand we’ve all had rough experiences in our past with relationships but if every ex of his is crazy or a nut job he is going to have me on guard. This typically means he messed up bad and refuses to take responsibility. And this goes hand-in-hand with my next one which is negative talk about a lot of people. He will turn this on every SO. Of course this is not a male thing, it’s a human thing.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

minimalME said:


> This completely untrue.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Having a timeline does not equate to expections. Having a timeline is what let's you know if you SHOULD have expections.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

Numb26 said:


> Having a timeline does not equate to expections. Having a timeline is what let's you know if you SHOULD have expections.


I disagree. You have very specific boxes you seek to check off.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

minimalME said:


> I disagree. You have very specific boxes you seek to check off.


Well, of course you hope to be able to check off boxes but you don't expect too. You give yourself that timeline to see if they get checked off so you don't waste time and energy.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

Numb26 said:


> Well, of course you hope to be able to check off boxes but you don't expect too. You give yourself that timeline to see if they get checked off so you don't waste time and energy.


No.

When before you’ve ever even seen/spoken to/met someone new, you have in your mind, ‘You will be having sex with me by X point in time, or I’m dumping you’, you’ve set up an expectation _of entitlement._

So, I don’t even think expectations are bad. Ex - I expect to be treated with kindness and respect.

But it’s gotten to the point where the transactional expectations of relationships have become absurd.

To say, ‘Well, I won’t be paying for her dinner’, at _the thought_ of some random stranger not having sex after a meal has been paid for, is off the charts ridiculous. That statement is very angry, and it just seethes of selfishness.

And I’m not talking about paying for meals. I’m talking about the attitude and motivation _behind_ it.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

minimalME said:


> No.
> 
> When before you’ve ever even seen/spoken to/met someone new, you have in your mind, ‘You will be having sex with me by X point in time, or I’m dumping you’, you’ve set up an expectation _of entitlement._
> 
> ...


Forget not paying for dinner, I wouldn't even TAKE someone to dinner if there wasn't any spark. They say that a woman knows the moment she meets a man whether she is going to have sex with him, take me about 3 dates to know. I don't like to waste anyone's time.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

minimalME said:


> No.
> 
> When before you’ve ever even seen/spoken to/met someone new, you have in your mind, ‘You will be having sex with me by X point in time, or I’m dumping you’, you’ve set up an expectation _of entitlement._
> 
> ...


There’s that word again. 

Entitlement. 

Nope. 

I don’t pick that up from any of the men that have spoken here. Not once. 

Just because a man chooses not to continue dating a woman because she hasn’t had sex with him when he would PREFER, does not mean he thinks he is entitled to sex. Not in the least. It is just two adults that have different preferences and aren’t a match plain and simple. Vilifying men because of their preferences is not fair.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

Numb26 said:


> Forget not paying for dinner, I wouldn't even TAKE someone to dinner *if there wasn't any spark*. They say that a woman knows the moment she meets a man whether she is going to have sex with him, take me about 3 dates to know. I don't like to waste anyone's time.


Part of the problem is that you and I are communicating about different things. You’re focusing on lust, and I’m talking about relationships.


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

minimalME said:


> This completely untrue.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


We’ve had this conversation before. It’s always a stalemate. How about I just don’t date any women from TAM, that solves it 🤣🤣


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

LATERILUS79 said:


> *I don’t pick that up from any of the men that have spoken here. Not once.*


Well, of course you don’t - you’re a man. 😂

And the relational motivations of men and women (for the most part) are not the same. Men and women are not the same. 

In our current climate though, I do admit that women seem to enjoy behaving like men. Which you‘re completely onboard with while you’re getting laid, but the disparaging comments (town bicycle) aren't too far behind.


----------



## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

RebuildingMe said:


> We’ve had this conversation before. It’s always a stalemate. How about I just don’t date any women from TAM, that solves it 🤣🤣


(((@RebuildingMe)))

It’s all in good fun. I would only ever want the best for every person here. 🤗


----------



## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

minimalME said:


> Do you make it clear from the start that you expect sex by a certain point in time, or you’ll be moving on? And do you tell them that if you pay for dinner, you expect sex?
> 
> These are rhetorical questions.


While not addressed to me. I do have a few thoughts.

In some Scandanavian countries, when people consider dating, they immediately have sex on the first date to see if there is a sexual spark or it is worth investing the time and effort in dating to get to know them. There are so many stories on TAM about sexually incompatible couples or at least couples with dramatically different sexual desires, that there may be some wisdom in that.

On the other hand, I see dating as falling into two general categories. 

One kind of dating is so that you have someone you like to attend social functions with because peer pressure is important to you. In high school dating was so that on Saturday night, there was someone I knew I would be with and dance with at the all city school dance, or do things with a group of friends (go bowling, attend parties, in the summer go sunbathing or water skiing with, etc.). Early in college it was to attend house parties with, go to movies or dances with, study with, attend lectures with, go to sporting events, etc. This kind of dating was geared around companionship, and a little bit of making out was great training for future relationships, but not an absolute requirement.

The other kind of dating is when you are getting ready to settle down and possibly establish an exclusive long term relationship. The OP was, I thought, talking about this kind of dating. When I was in my youth in my junior and senior years of college, the purpose of dating was to find someone, I judged to be marriage material and share my life with and raise a family with. 

In high school, it was to learn more about women and more about boy-girl relationships. In high school, I didn't know enough to really have sexual expectations with a date, other than kissing and making out after we got to know each other and then it was either mutually desired or one of us was trying to slow things down.

If in late college or at an advanced age, time should not be wasted. If I was in a dating situation (I am not, as I am married to a woman I dearly love), I would want to be with someone whose company I enjoyed, who we shared interests together, and who I respected their character and intelligence. Unless I knew her as an acquaintance or friend first that would take probably more than three dates to get to know her. However, if I felt no connection or sexual chemistry after three dates, I would be reluctant to keep dating. If I did feel sexual chemistry, I would want to take the relationship to a higher level. That higher level would involve emotional bonding through greater degrees of sexual intimacy.

As to paying for dates, I think things have changed a lot since I was in college. I think that yes a guy paying for the first couple dates is fine. After that, it depends on relative finances and the people's sexual stereotypes. As to expecting sex after paying for a certain number of dates? That is not the question I would ask. The question to me is more of if two people want to get to know each other on a more intimate basis, it shouldn't matter who pays for what and the intimacy should not be purchased for the price of a date. I want to date women who are interested in my, not prostitutes. However, if the increasing intimacy is not happening, it may be time to look for a different potential partner.

So as a mature adult male, my red flags are:

a woman who seems to not be sexually attracted to me.
a woman who is trying to use me in some way
a woman who is not basically honest, kind, or has integrity
a high maintenance woman
a woman who has not life goals or ambitions with what she wants to do in the future.
a woman who is rigid in what her expectations are and not interested in the things that I find interesting.
Lack of good looks are not a red flag, as I have learned that even plan looking women can be sexually adventurous and rock my world.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

minimalME said:


> Part of the problem is that you and I are communicating about different things. You’re focusing on lust, and I’m talking about relationships.


This is true! I am not looking for a relationship so I do approach dating differently


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

Young at Heart said:


> In some Scandanavian countries, when people consider dating, they immediately have sex on the first date to see if there is a sexual spark or it is worth investing the time and effort in dating to get to know them. There are so many stories on TAM about sexually incompatible couples or at least couples with dramatically different sexual desires, that there may be some wisdom in that.


I was in a sexless marriage for 20 years.

On a foundational/fundamental level, sex _was not_ the problem.

_We didn’t trust each other_, and so we each hid. We were both wrapped up in tremendous amounts of fear. There was little to no vulnerability. And it just got worse.

That was the problem.

Having sex with strangers guarantees absolutely nothing about the success of a marriage.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

snowbum said:


> I’d gladly cross off any guy that expected sex in date 3. I don’t have a dead trim and enjoy my husband but if I need to screws someone after essentially 36 hours of dating them to keep them? Bye.





minimalME said:


> This completely untrue.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





minimalME said:


> Part of the problem is that you and I are communicating about different things. You’re focusing on lust, and I’m talking about relationships.


It's easy to get caught up in semantics and take things too literally. 

I do not believe anyone is literally saying that a 4th date would hinge on them having sexual intercourse by the 3rd date. 

What they are saying is if there is no romantic/sexual chemistry within the early stages of dating, then there is little point in continuing to date (assuming that one wants to have a full-service relationship that includes a romantic/sexual component of course)

Would you even want to continue to date someone for which you felt no attraction or chemistry with??

And that is not an issue of lust vs relationship. If one wants to have a relationship that includes the component of sexuality, then if that component is not there, then continuing to date is nonsensical. 

For me personally, sexual attraction, chemistry and at least the potential for compatibility are crucial for me to even be interested in asking someone out on a FIRST date, but there have been times I have dated people for several months before having actual PIV sex. 

It was months before we had actual PIV but the attraction and chemistry was very apparent on the first date and the second date involved some pretty hot and heavy making out and clothes were on the floor very shortly there after even though PIV was mutually reserved until later into the relationship. 

So I don't think it is always to be taken to literally mean full PIV intercourse must be achieved by the 3rd date in order for their to be a 4th. 

But rather there needs to be notable signs of honest romantic/sexual chemistry and interest early in the dating process for there to be reason to continue to invest into that relationship. 

If you think about it, would you even want to continue dating someone you felt no attraction towards or even if you did, would you want to keep going out with some guy that showed no signs of attraction towards you but was just wanting to get out of the house?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

minimalME said:


> Having sex with strangers guarantees absolutely nothing about the success of a marriage.


Perhaps not. But not having sex with one's spouse for years says an awful lot about the failure of the marriage.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

minimalME said:


> Well, of course you don’t - you’re a man. 😂
> 
> And the relational motivations of men and women (for the most part) are not the same. Men and women are not the same.
> 
> In our current climate though, I do admit that women seem to enjoy behaving like men. Which you‘re completely onboard with while you’re getting laid, but the disparaging comments (town bicycle) aren't too far behind.


Interesting. 

First you rattle off an “all men” comment by saying “well of course you don’t, you’re a man”. 

You are now implying that because I’m a man, I am unable to look at other comments made by men through an objective lens. 

Then you mention at the end that I’m “on board with women acting like men” by being promiscuous and then assuming I would refer to such women as the town bicycle. 


These are VERY disappointing statements, MinimalMe. Very disappointing. I thought better of you. You don’t know me well at all it appears. I’m amazed you would be so quick to assume that I am all for promiscuous women when at the age of 43, I still have only slept with one woman. Ever. 

I hold the same standard for men and women. I am not interested in a bunch of one night stands and I’m amazed you were so quick to throw me into that group and then on top
Of all of that, make “all men” comments. 

Never would have pegged you as a misandrist.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

oldshirt said:


> I do not believe anyone is literally saying that a 4th date would hinge on them having sexual intercourse by the 3rd date.


I am being literal. It’s why I stopped dating.



> What they are saying is if there is no romantic/sexual chemistry within the early stages of dating, then there is little point in continuing to date (assuming that one wants to have a full-service relationship that includes a romantic/sexual component of course)


No.

Men are not talking about attraction. Men are talking about having sex - and that a refusal to have sex would signal them to move on to someone who’s willing to have sex.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> For me personally, sexual attraction, chemistry and at least the potential for compatibility are crucial for me to even be interested in asking someone out on a FIRST date,


Let me clarify this point so as not to be misinterpreted. 

This does not mean that I have to have sex on a first date. 

However I do want to have a full service relationship that includes sexuality as a critical component. 

There for I am not even going to approach or ask out anyone that I do not find sexually attractive nor would I ask out anyone that seems uninterested in me. As sexuality is a critical component for me, it would also need to be a critical component for anyone that I would want to be in a relationship with. I would never want to be in a relationship with someone that was OK with being in a sexless relationship. Asexuals and people not attracted to me need not apply. 

Now does that mean that I "expect" sexual contact by a certain date? No, it doesn't. But if I want to have a full service relationship and I am attracted to somebody, and they want to have a full service relationship and they are attracted to me - then why would we not be having sexual activities within the relationship??????????

Does that mean I am "entitled" absolutely NOT. But why would I want to be with someone that doesn't want to be with me?
And if that person does not want to be with me,, then why on earth would they want to be with me? That's not a play on words, it's a bona fide question. Why would someone want to continue to date someone they do not want to be with?? That simply does not make sense.


----------



## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Interesting.
> 
> First you rattle off an “all men” comment by saying “well of course you don’t, you’re a man”.
> 
> ...


🙄

You’re a stranger on the internet. I have no clue who you are or what your history is.

That I’ve disappointed you is fine. I’ve probably, at one time or another, disappointed most posters here.

I stand by what I’ve written. If you think I hate men, you’re free to believe whatever you like. ☺


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

minimalME said:


> 🙄
> 
> You’re a stranger on the internet. I have no clue who you are or what your history is.
> 
> ...


I will. And you do.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

minimalME said:


> Men are not talking about attraction. Men are talking about having sex - and that a refusal to have sex would signal them to move on to someone who’s willing to have sex.


To be fair, I think it was just me who said this.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

minimalME said:


> I am being literal. It’s why I stopped dating.
> 
> No.
> 
> Men are not talking about attraction. Men are talking about having sex - and that a refusal to have sex would signal them to move on to someone who’s willing to have sex.


OK I can see that if a player in a bar were to ask some gal to go home with him and she said no, he would likely move on to the next. But is players in bars or looking for hook ups the topic here??

Most normal, decent, average joes are not in bars trying to hook up with drunk chicks or swiping on every page of Tinder looking for a booty call. I'm talking about normal, decent single guys looking for a legitimate partner. 

If someone is going to "refuse" to have any kind of sexual contact, then it's highly likely that there is no attraction or chemistry in which case why is it not in the better interest of both people to each move on to find someone for which they are more compatible? 

And if there is a sincere attraction and chemistry, then why are they refusing? 

Again, I don't think anyone here literally meant that if they do not have PIV sex by date 3 that there will be no date 4. If an individual does have that as a hard and fast rule, he can correct me, but what I am coming away with what has been said thus far is if there does not appear to be some honest spark and attraction reasonably early in the dating process, then there likely is no point for either party to continue.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

oldshirt said:


> OK I can see that if a player in a bar were to ask some gal to go home with him and she said no, he would likely move on to the next. But is players in bars or looking for hook ups the topic here??
> 
> Most normal, decent, average joes are not in bars trying to hook up with drunk chicks or swiping on every page of Tinder looking for a booty call. I'm talking about normal, decent single guys looking for a legitimate partner.
> 
> ...


This is exactly my point.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

Numb26 said:


> To be fair, I think it was just me who said this.


For the decade I’ve posted on this site, it’s been the predominant belief of dating men.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

minimalME said:


> For the decade I’ve posted on this site, it’s been the predominant belief of dating men.


Maybe, but I am always up front with women about what I am and am not looking for. So if they do agree to go on a date knowing that does that not give an automatic assumption that they want the same thing?


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

oldshirt said:


> OK I can see that if a player in a bar were to ask some gal to go home with him and she said no, he would likely move on to the next. But is players in bars or looking for hook ups the topic here??
> 
> Most normal, decent, average joes are not in bars trying to hook up with drunk chicks or swiping on every page of Tinder looking for a booty call. I'm talking about normal, decent single guys looking for a legitimate partner.
> 
> ...


No.

I’ve never once interacted with a player from a bar. I’ve never once participated in a bar hookup.

Why would I refuse to have sex with a stranger I find attractive? Are you seriously asking me that question because you have no idea? 😳

I do not believe that you don’t know why a woman would refuse sex with a man she hardly knows. To me, it’s a highly manipulative tactic to get your (globally ‘your’) way - which means to have sex. That’s the goal for the majority of men - have sex as quickly as possible with no commitment, no responsibility, and no obligation. 

For thousands of years, marriage came first - not sex. 

And just to clarify, something I’ve stated on here more than once, I don’t blame men for the current mess between men and women. Women have allowed it, and women have the power to stop it.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

Numb26 said:


> Maybe, but I am always up front with women about what I am and am not looking for. So if they do agree to go on a date knowing that does that not give an automatic assumption that they want the same thing?


I desire a higher standard of behavior, where just because you can find someone to have sex with, doesn’t mean you should.

Every single promiscuous act has a societal consequence. Every single one.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

minimalME said:


> No.
> 
> I’ve never once interacted with a player from a bar. I’ve never once participated in a bar hookup.
> 
> ...


Somehow we are not connecting and communicating effectively. I'm not talking about having sex with strangers. I'm not talking about people having sex with people they do not know comfortably enough.

I'm talking about attraction and dating. 

I literally said that I do not believe many men have a hard and fast rule that they must have actual sexual intercourse by date 3 or there there will not be a date 4. I think that is a myth that YOU are perpetuating and I do not believe the men here are saying that.

I am probably one of the horniest and most unapologetically sexually oriented men on this site and I clearly stated that I have dated women for multiple months before having actual PIV sex, so I dispute that people are saying they must have intercourse before there is a 4th date. 

But I do believe that there needs to be some notable signs of mutual attraction and interest and chemistry within the early stages of the dating process for the relationship to continue.

Each person and each couple will have to determine what that means for them. I am not saying that couples need to be swinging from the chandeliers within a week or two. 

But neither am I saying they should be meeting for coffee and keeping conversation topics limited to their jobs and their pets and what their hobbies are for 6 months.

If someone is an asexual and does not want to have a full service relationship that includes sexuality, then someone who does want to have a full service relationship needs to be able to recognize that and call it a day.

And if someone is simply not attracted to someone, they too should be saying "thanks but no thanks" sooner rather than later as well.

If there is not a mutual attraction and interest, they should not be seeing each other. 

I'm not getting why that is not self apparent and is even a point of contention. If you don't like someone, you shouldn't be dating them.

And if someone doesn't like you, you shouldn't be pursuing them or trying to date them either.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

minimalME said:


> No.
> 
> I’ve never once interacted with a player from a bar. I’ve never once participated in a bar hookup.


And just for the record, excluding my swinging days at swinger clubs with my wife, I have never had a bar hook up either. 

All of the people I have dated, FWBs, relationships, hook ups etc were people that I knew somehow in daily life either in school, college, work, through mutual friends etc etc 

Some of them asked me out first, in which case I assumed there was some attraction and interest, otherwords they would not be asking me out. 

And the ones I asked out first, I was attracted to them and was picking up vibes and signals that they were attracted to me as well. .... otherwise I would not have asked them out.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

minimalME said:


> I desire a higher standard of behavior, where just because you can find someone to have sex with, doesn’t mean you should.
> 
> Every single promiscuous act has a societal consequence. Every single one.


I'm still not sure we're all really connecting effectively here. 

No one is really talking about promiscuity here. 

And the topic shouldn't really be anything dirty or seedy or there to be a need for asserting one's moral superiority. 

Some of us have been talking about the role of attraction and spark in dating; nothing more, nothing less.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

minimalME said:


> For thousands of years, marriage came first - not sex.


If you are wanting to go back thousands of years, then sex came first hundreds of thousands of years before marriage as we know came along. In terms of homosapian history, marriage is recent concept.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

oldshirt said:


> I literally said that I do not believe many men have a hard and fast rule that they must have actual sexual intercourse by date 3 or there there will not be a date 4. *I think that is a myth that YOU are perpetuating and I do not believe the men here are saying that.*


😳

*


minimalME said:



For the decade I’ve posted on this site, it’s been the predominant belief of dating men.

Click to expand...

*It has been my experience both on this forum and throughout my dating years that I am correct. There's no mythology involved. 



> But I do believe that there needs to be some notable signs of mutual attraction and interest and chemistry within the early stages of the dating process for the relationship to continue.


Again, I'm not talking about finding someone attractive. There are a few people (@ConanHub) who have sex quickly and stay together, but it's not the majority. 



> *Each person and each couple will have to determine what that means for them.* I am not saying that couples need to be swinging from the chandeliers within a week or two.


This might be how it works in the securlar world - you make your own rules, and anything goes. In terms of sex, this _is not_ how Christians are to behave. 



> If someone is an asexual and does not want to have a full service relationship that includes sexuality, then someone who does want to have a full service relationship needs to be able to recognize that and call it a day.


Using asexually is, in my opinion, yet another shaming tactic to pressure people to comply to have sex.



> I'm not getting why that is not self apparent and is even a point of contention. If you don't like someone, you shouldn't be dating them.


The point of contention is that we have completely different worldviews. Yours is apparently a very, very wide path, and my is extremely narrow. And getting narrower. 😂


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

About bars, I spent more nights than not at them watching bands. So did all of my whole wider circle of friends. So just saying, there is some in-between there. Not everyone at a bar is a stranger you pick up. Sometimes there's a bunch of people who know each other there, and that certainly was where some relationships developed with my group and me. All types of relationships, long ones, short ones. Getting out in public is how you meet people you have anything in common with. Then maybe there's an afterparty and you get to know someone better, or maybe you decide to get tickets and go to a concert together or you just ask if they're going to go see so and so - and then you see them again and keep talking and sometimes that's how things develop. There is nothing wrong with that.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

minimalME said:


> And just to clarify, something I’ve stated on here more than once, I don’t blame men for the current mess between men and women. Women have allowed it, and women have the power to stop it.


Now on this point I will agree with you and it could be an interesting topic of discussion for another thread. 

Your use of the words "blame" and "mess" however give good insight into your perspective on the matter but irregardless I do believe that you are correct that it is women that have changed the sexual landscape of society. Whether they want to "stop it" or not however is debatable. 

I believe women changed the social-sexual dynamics of society and changed the dynamics of sex and relationships and marriage etc because they wanted to and felt it was better for them and which gave them more sexual agency and self determinism. 

Probably never before in recorded history have women had more ability to choose their sexual partners and have sexual relations per their own terms than here and now. 

I could go on and on but to tie this in to the current topic and the topic of red flags in relationships, I believe this new dynamic actually gives more credence to men being more alert to women not being sexually attracted to them. 

In days of yore when arranged marriage or at least parental-approved courting and marriage was the norm, it was probably pretty common for men to court women that had minimal or even no attraction to them as those were likely the men that the women's families approved of the most. 

But today when women are the ones that choose who they get with and who they will quickly dispense with if they decide they don't like them, it's that much more important for men to know if a woman likes them and is attracted to them or not. 

Today a man cannot appeal to her daddy to get her to accept him. She has to actually like him now if he hopes to be with her.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

oldshirt said:


> No one is really talking about promiscuity here.


Of course we are. 😂

Going from one person to another having sex is promiscuous.

The _only_ alternative to promiscuity is having a single sexual partner that you're married to. That's it.

_All other behaviors (involving multiple people/multiple sexual acts) are promiscuous._


----------



## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

oldshirt said:


> Your use of the words "blame" and "mess" however give good insight into your perspective on the matter but irregardless I do believe that you are correct that it is women that have changed the sexual landscape of society. Whether they want to "stop it" or not however is debatable.


I used the word blame, because I was just accused of being a misandrist.

And relationships are a mess. This site is a testament to that.


----------



## Enigma32 (Jul 6, 2020)

I have also kinda followed the 3 date rule and I will try to explain my reasons for it. It's not a feeling of entitlement. If it doesn't happen by date 3, it never will. For whatever reason, this seems to be how it goes. 

I remember being a young man and thinking it respectful to hold off and wait. When a guy does that, too often some other guy will not be so "respectful" and he will hook up with the girl you like and suddenly she's with him now. You lose. Yay for being respectful and waiting.

You also run into the ladies that are quite content just being "friends" and by friends I mean get free entertainment and other favors out of you indefinitely. While the man is busy trying to date or court a woman, she will keep letting him come around for all the free dinners and movie dates. I used to be Facebook friends with a girl that would even post on FB when she wanted to see some new movie. Several guys in the comments would offer to take her and she would pick one. This sort of thing happens. A lot.

Lastly, we just want to make sure you're actually into us. Maybe a woman meets a guy that is good on paper for her but she's not really into him so she sticks around to see if attraction develops. Not all men are morons, we can see you aren't all that interested. If I had the choice between standoffish girl and someone who is very affectionate and physical by the 3rd date, who do you think I am picking? It's a no brainer.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

snowbum said:


> I’d gladly cross off any guy that expected sex in date 3. I don’t have a dead trim and enjoy my husband but if I need to screws someone after essentially 36 hours of dating them to keep them? Bye.


Twenty-three years and four months happily married, because twenty-six years and three months ago, my wife and I shared sex together on our third date.

On the other hand my ex-wife and I shared sex together around two hours after meeting each other. And that led to my second longest ongoing sexual relationship.



minimalME said:


> Do you make it clear from the start that you expect sex by a certain point in time, or you’ll be moving on?


My wife didn’t make it clear, that said afterwards if I didn’t share sex with her by our third date, she would have let me go back then.

Likewise she hasn’t been the only woman I have been with, who had a time limit on sharing sex. Although most of the women I have been with expected sex on the first date, or second if they were taking their time. With my wife being one of very few exceptions.

Of which there were a few occasions when I was questioned if I was interested in them at all, when I hadn’t initiated sex with them on the first or second date.

One thing for sure (with one exception) I learned that if I hadn’t shared sex with a woman by the third date. I wasn’t going to share sex with them at all. So sex by the third date, at least in my experience is a good rule of thumb.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

minimalME said:


> 😳
> 
> 
> 
> ...


#1. I think this has a lot to do with what you consider quickly and even what you consider "sex." I think most happy, healthy couples in long term functional relationships recognized their attraction and desire for each other pretty early in the process. At what point they had actual PIV intercourse is probably all over the board depending on their own values and beliefs and comfort zones. And that is kind of my whole point. I am not talking about the day and hour that a penis enters a vagina. I am talking about when people feel an attraction and desire for each other. Some people felt that within minutes. There are other couples out there that have been married decades that have never felt it. That would not be the relationship for me. 

#2. If you are going to bring Jesus into this, then I request you or someone else more familiar with the Bible than me to please cite a passage where Jesus himself states how long a couple should date before they marry and thus have sex. I'm not trying to be a d1ck, I am being sincere. Assuming that christians are supposed to be married before they have intercouse, how long did Jesus say people needed to date before they marry. I sincerely want to know what he said on that matter. Because here is why I ask. I have the feeling that in Jesus' time, 14 year old girls were traded off for marriage for a camel or two. Is that where we want to be when Jesus comes back? You brought Christianity into this implying that Christians need to date and get to know each other a long time and get married before sex, so how long did Jesus say to date? And did Jesus give one hoot about how much attraction and desire a woman had for the man she was to marry??

Even though I am not a scholar of the Bible, I will assume there are a lot of passages where Jesus said that a husband and wife needed to love and honor and respect and submit to each other AFTER marriage. But did he say even one word about how long a couple should date or how long they should know each other or how much attraction and desire a woman should feel for a man (or man for the woman for that matter) before they marry?? I'll be waiting for your answer. 

#3. There is no shame in asexuality. People are what they are. There's nothing wrong with being asexual, but someone that is asexual is not a compatible mate for someone that wants to have an active and satisfying sex life. If someone is interested in somebody and that person is asexual or does not want to have a sex life for whatever reason, then that person needs to know sooner rather than later so they can move on and find someone else that does want to have a sex life with them. That's just practicality and nothing about shame at all. 

#4. Don't be so sure on that. Yes I value sexual chemistry and compatibility very much. But my strike zone for long term relationship/marriage is very very narrow and my list of requirements and criteria for me to get married again is very very long. If I end up back on the market again, for me to look at marriage again will require a very long and detailed vetting process and very high bar to reach. And towards the top of that list will be romantic/sexual chemistry and compatibility.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Living in the past and poor boundaries with other women are deal breakers for me.

Also someone who doesn't take care of their body and health. I don't expect a guy to be Hercules but in the age range I'm looking at people really go downhill if they let themselves go. I bring health and fitness and you need to as well.

And no broke guys. You don't need to have more then me but if you're in your 50's and not on your feet you're a poor prospect.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

My last couple of years of dating, I'm pretty sure I had the money/dinner/paying talk with every man I went out with.

I've never had any problem paying for my own meals, and I would've truly preferred to have had seperate checks and go out to a nice place and have a great meal, rather than have someone worry about whether or not they were being taken advantage of.

I think a very good idea is that everyone pays for their own stuff until you've decided you're actually going to commit to a significant relationship.

Men spending outrageous amounts of money on meeting new women is another modern dating thing.


----------



## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

Personal said:


> One thing for sure (with one exception) I learned that if I hadn’t shared sex with a woman by the third date. I wasn’t going to share sex with them at all. *So sex. Y the third date, at least in my experience is a good rule of thumb.*


Which is why celibacy is my choice. 😂


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> Now on this point I will agree with you and it could be an interesting topic of discussion for another thread.
> 
> Your use of the words "blame" and "mess" however give good insight into your perspective on the matter but irregardless I do believe that you are correct that it is women that have changed the sexual landscape of society. Whether they want to "stop it" or not however is debatable.
> 
> ...


I want to say one more thing about this above and how it relates to red flags and men's need to know that a woman is actually attracted to him -

There are a couple subsets of the population that are very uncomfortable with women being empowered to choose their own sex partners based on their own attraction and desire - 

One is men that lack many of the traits and characteristics that women are typically attracted to. 

And the other is women that want men to be committed to them and support and provide for them even though they lack attraction and desire for the man. 

A good chunk of the earth's population still practice some form of arranged marriage which is basically sexual socialism where the poontang is distributed throughout the male population and male labor and resources are distributed throughout the female population in an attempt to keep things in balance and so that there aren't groups of single males out roaming around raising hell. 

In these cultures, there is rarely a very long courting process where the actual couple is dating/courting for very long to determine if they can stand to be around each other or not. The families and community elders typically are the ones that do a lot of the vetting to determine if someone is financially stable, a good citizen, a nice person etc etc. In those cultures, love and desire etc are expected to come after marriage. 

In the west, we choose our own mates based on our own individual criteria which often includes love and desire and financial resources and compatibility etc and we want to establish and ensure those things before we commit to marriage.


----------



## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

minimalME said:


> Part of the problem is that you and I are communicating about different things. You’re focusing on lust, and I’m talking about relationships.


Although lust also can go a very long way towards establishing a marital relationship and in contributing towards its sustenance and growth.

For example just the other day after more than 26 years together, my wife walks into my office, takes off her skirt, takes off her knickers, gets on the floor, leans back and then spreads her legs in front of me. At the end of the day, without still sharing lust for each other, that certainly wouldn't happen and we wouldn't still be married.



minimalME said:


> I was in a sexless marriage for 20 years.


I have never experienced sexlessness in any of my sexual relationships, and that includes my first marriage that didn't work out because she cheated on me.



> On a foundational/fundamental level, sex _was not_ the problem.
> 
> _We didn’t trust each other_, and so we each hid. We were both wrapped up in tremendous amounts of fear. There was little to no vulnerability. And it just got worse.
> 
> That was the problem.


Whether it is a symptom or both a symptom and a problem in itself. I don't believe I have it in me, to settle for a month of sexlessness, let alone two decades worth.



> Having sex with strangers guarantees absolutely nothing about the success of a marriage.


I concur, that said it can sometimes help.

That said I hope you're having a terrific time away.


----------



## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

@oldshirt, when people ask for the sorts of biblical specifics that you have, I assume (and I could be wrong) that you're looking for loopholes and not for Truth.

My response to your last post is - what is the highest standard of behavior? Not - what can I get away with?

The basic question that you've asked is exactly the same as Satan to Eve in the Garden - 'Did God really say ...?'

For me, over time, I've been convicted that there'll be no remarriage. No dating. No opposite sex anything. 

And I'm very much at peace with that. 😌


----------



## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

Personal said:


> That said I hope you're having a terrific time away.


Thank you - I am! 🤗 💕


----------



## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

minimalME said:


> Every single promiscuous act has a societal consequence. Every single one.


In my experience one of those consequences, has been to enjoy having a good marriage.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

minimalME said:


> 😳
> It has been my experience both on this forum and throughout my dating years that I am correct. There's no mythology involved.
> 
> Again, I'm not talking about finding someone attractive. There are a few people (@ConanHub) who have sex quickly and stay together, but it's not the majority.
> ...


Oh geez. Now I'm going to have to read what this thread is about. 😋


----------



## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

minimalME said:


> My last couple of years of dating, I'm pretty sure I had the money/dinner/paying talk with every man I went out with.
> 
> I've never had any problem paying for my own meals, and I would've truly preferred to have had seperate checks and go out to a nice place and have a great meal, rather than have someone worry about whether or not they were being taken advantage of.
> 
> ...


It's been many years since I was dating women to find potential ongoing sexual relationship partners. That said in the dark ages of way back when, it was normal for the one doing the asking to pay (which in my case was often the woman). Or both of us would readily share the costs, or pay for ourselves separately. All of which wasn't a problem, and you didn't need to spend stupendous amounts of money either. Which incidentally is also my 22 year old sons current dating experience as well.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

minimalME said:


> Which is why celibacy is my choice. 😂


I was going to give this a sad face "like". Yet thinking about it further, if that is your want and desire, then I am happy for you making that choice.


----------



## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

Andy1001 said:


> How they treat serving staff in a restaurant or bar.


Yes!



snowbum said:


> I’d gladly cross off any guy that expected sex in date 3. I don’t have a dead trim and enjoy my husband but if I need to screws someone after essentially 36 hours of dating them to keep them? Bye.


I don't believe he literally meant sex on date 3 or that's it, but if there's been absolutely no physical contact at all after 3 dates, well sheesh - I'd be moving on too and I'm a woman! At least kiss me dammit! 

Red flags for me would be the above two just mentioned, poor financial situation - as LITS said, he doesn't need to be wealthy or have more than I, I can look after myself but if he is stone broke in his 50's he's just not a good prospect.

If he dropped me like a hot potato every time one of his kids called him for something that'd be a deal breaker too.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Personal said:


> If they have poor personal hygiene, so they don’t shower or brush their teeth.


I also want to clarify this one a bit further. I learned this is a thing on TAM with some people. And given what I have read it's a notable red flag, albeit perhaps not a less obvious one.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Personal said:


> I also want to clarify this one a bit further. I learned this is a thing on TAM with some people. And given what I have read it's a notable red flag, albeit perhaps not a less obvious one.


A guy who didn't shower or brush his teeth wouldn't last beyond date 1, or even have date 1 if I knew him prior.

If you can't be bothered to clean up for a first date just take a hike.


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## Corgi Mum (10 mo ago)

Andy1001 said:


> How they treat serving staff in a restaurant or bar.


Too obvious. I think this might even have been a line in a movie?

What I found, dating in my 40s and 50s, is that the guys were all too aware of their personal red flags and had learned to hide them in the early days. So they were unfailingly gracious and polite to serving staff. They didn't mention exes often and, if they did, they never badmouthed them. They didn't gawk at other women or flirt with them, their focus was 100% on me.

In a lot of cases this early behaviour was a carefully calculated act. Bait and switch.

My personal red flags:

Immaturity. It's especially unattractive at this age. A "youthful attitude" is one thing, but when I get the feeling I'm dating someone with the emotional maturity of an 8 year old I'm out.
Fiscal irresponsibility. He doesn't need to earn as much or more than I do, just be financially self-sufficient. I'm too old to take on a parasite.
Lack of drive. Have a hobby or interest or _something_ that you're passionate about, don't just sit on the couch mindlessly watching TV.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Corgi Mum said:


> Too obvious. I think this might even have been a line in a movie?
> 
> What I found, dating in my 40s and 50s, is that the guys were all too aware of their personal red flags and had learned to hide them in the early days. So they were unfailingly gracious and polite to serving staff. They didn't mention exes often and, if they did, they never badmouthed them. They didn't gawk at other women or flirt with them, their focus was 100% on me.
> 
> ...


Don't forget the love bombing. That's a fabulous way to hide who you really are.

Ask me how I know.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

lifeistooshort said:


> Don't forget the love bombing.


Yep, that's a big one to watch out for, including other associated behaviours.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

minimalME said:


> Which is why celibacy is my choice. 😂


Are you celibate because you don't want to have sex?

Or are you celibate because you don't want men to have sex?


----------



## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

oldshirt said:


> Are you celibate because you don't want to have sex?
> 
> Or are you celibate because you don't want men to have sex?


Neither. What bizarre questions that don't even come close to my reasons. 😂


----------



## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Personal said:


> Twenty-three years and four months happily married, because twenty-six years and three months ago, my wife and I shared sex together on our third date.
> 
> On the other hand my ex-wife and I shared sex together around two hours after meeting each other. And that led to my second longest ongoing sexual relationship.
> 
> ...


My bf and I didn't have sex for 3 months.

Four years later we're at it 5 times a week.

I'm glad we took some tine to know each other, and by the time it finally happened I was ready to devour him. I'm still ready to devour him.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

Corgi Mum said:


> Too obvious. I think this might even have been a line in a movie?
> 
> What I found, dating in my 40s and 50s, is that the guys were all too aware of their personal red flags and had learned to hide them in the early days. So they were unfailingly gracious and polite to serving staff. They didn't mention exes often and, if they did, they never badmouthed them. They didn't gawk at other women or flirt with them, their focus was 100% on me.
> 
> ...





Corgi Mum said:


> Too obvious. I think this might even have been a line in a movie?
> 
> What I found, dating in my 40s and 50s, is that the guys were all too aware of their personal red flags and had learned to hide them in the early days. So they were unfailingly gracious and polite to serving staff. They didn't mention exes often and, if they did, they never badmouthed them. They didn't gawk at other women or flirt with them, their focus was 100% on me.
> 
> ...


It can be a line in a movie or any other example you want to quote. 
If I’m on a date and she half heartedly attempts to pay the bill and I tell her to get the tip and she leaves five dollars on a two hundred dollar bill I instantly know what I’m dealing with.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

minimalME said:


> @oldshirt, when people ask for the sorts of biblical specifics that you have, I assume (and I could be wrong) that you're looking for loopholes and not for Truth.


No loopholes and I have the feeling that the Truth is there are no established standards from Christ on how long a couple should know each other or date/court. 

Most traditional, faith-based cultures that require marriage before sex and especially that have arranged marriage, usually have very short dating/courting periods.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

lifeistooshort said:


> I'm glad we took some tine to know each other, and by the time it finally happened I was ready to devour him. I'm still ready to devour him.


I swear this quote has hit home with me more than any quote I’ve ever read on tam. 
I have been on hundreds of dates and most of them ended in sex. 
I met my now wife one morning without ever expecting to meet anyone. I asked her out and she refused and let me be honest I wasn’t used to being knocked back. 
I persevered and eventually she agreed to go out with me an to be my girlfriend.
When we had sex I blew her mind (her words). 
And I’m still blowing it.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

minimalME said:


> Neither. What bizarre questions that don't even come close to my reasons. 😂


I think it's a pertinent question based on your tone. You seem resentful that men tend to value sexual chemistry and compatibility and are very willing to pass on women they don't have that chemistry and compatibility with so my question was are you choosing celibacy because you don't want to have a sexual relationship or because you don't want men getting what they want? 

It's like the MGTOW/INCEL guys that are resentful that women want to be with men of status that have resources and are good looking etc. They resent women having their own wants so they check themselves out of the market, not because they actually don't want women (they do) but because they don't want women getting what they want (since it doesn't include them).


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Yikes. I'm out of my element on this one.

I would have loved to have been able to court a woman though and have a real growing period where we learned about each other. Every woman, who got a green light from me, immediately got physical with me so my experience and perception have been skewed a certain way.

I guess a lot of men and women are behaving pretty poorly and a lot of fear, anger and suspicion seems to be involved.

I've got it good being with my wife but if I was single today, I'd probably be off a lot of women's lists because I wouldn't be putting out.😂

I guess I would be waving red flags.

I'm not even sure about the christian single scene at all.

I am put off by love bombing though. That is just alarming.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

oldshirt said:


> No loopholes and I have the feeling that the Truth is there are no established standards from Christ on how long a couple should know each other or date/court.
> 
> Most traditional, faith-based cultures that require marriage before sex and especially that have arranged marriage, usually have very short dating/courting periods.


There were no established standards for dating or courting, because people didn't date or court.

Again, if you'd like to know how arranged Hebrew commitments, engagements and marriages (contracted from an early age by fathers) were dealt with two thousand years ago, I'm sure a quick search will help you.

If you're interested in what Jesus says (which I don't think you are) about universal morality that applies to all, regardless of culture or time period, what is the _highest standard_ of how people are capable of treating one another? And do you see that operating around you on a daily basis?

Do you see sacrifice? Or do you see selfishness?

Individuals are able to do _much better_ than they do, but they don't, because _they choose not to_.

Try being _completely_ other-centered (in thought and deed) for a 24 hour time period, and see how that goes for you.


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

@minimalME please enjoy your vacation. It doesn’t sound like you’ll be hooking up the next couple of months anyway 🤣. This discussion can wait until you’re back. By the way, I saw the photos. It looks awesome. Have a great time!


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

oldshirt said:


> I think it's a pertinent question based on your tone. You seem resentful that men tend to value sexual chemistry and compatibility and are very willing to pass on women they don't have that chemistry and compatibility with so my question was are you choosing celibacy because you don't want to have a sexual relationship or because you don't want men getting what they want?


My tone? No. 

There's not even the smallest part of me that resents sexuality - or men. 😌 

I adore sex. And men. At the risk of being provocative - I miss the penis greatly. 

I've chosen celibacy, because _I chose_ an unbiblical divorce, and I don't believe (within my worldview) that remarriage is an acceptable option. So, certainly 'dating' (sexual relationships) is out of the question.

Am I willing to live out what I say I believe? Yes, I am.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

RebuildingMe said:


> @minimalME please enjoy your vacation. It doesn’t sound like you’ll be hooking up the next couple of months anyway 🤣. This discussion can wait until you’re back. By the way, I saw the photos. It looks awesome. Have a great time!


I don't come back! Not to 'stay' anyway. 🤗

This is my lifestyle. I've been nomadic in the US since 2016 and have now gone international. 😬


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

Must not be afraid of spiders or snakes....Immediate deal breaker ...everything else is somewhat negotiable..


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

minimalME said:


> I don't come back! Not to 'stay' anyway. 🤗
> 
> This is my lifestyle. I've been nomadic in the US since 2016 and have now gone international. 😬


Say it ain’t so! Don’t leave us!

By the way, internationally, sex is expected by date #2. 🤣🤣


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

minimalME said:


> This is my lifestyle. I've been nomadic in the US since 2016 and have now gone international.


An ex-girfriend of mine, has been travelling the world since she got divorced a few years ago, and she is having a great time.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

Personal said:


> An ex-girfriend of mine, has been travelling the world since she got divorced a few years ago, and she is having a great time.


It suits me. No house or car. Very, very few material possessions to deal with. Moving around. 

I like it. 😊


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

minimalME said:


> My tone? No.
> 
> There's not even the smallest part of me that resents sexuality - or men. 😌
> 
> ...


Wow. Could have fooled me with your previous comments about men that you don't resent them. 
You adore sex...... but you were exceptionally quick to attack men that also adored sex. That makes absolutely no sense.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

Red flag for me that I will be watching for is past trauma. I'm not talking about baggage. Everyone has baggage. That can be dealt with. I'm talking about trauma that requires professional help. 

Can't do it anymore. I empathize and sympathize with people that have been dealt some terrible blows in their lives. It sucks. I'm not the guy to save them. I don't have that skill and I wont be used in a selfish way as an emotional crutch or punching bag. 

Any whiff of past trauma and I will have to bow out.


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## Enigma32 (Jul 6, 2020)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Red flag for me that I will be watching for is past trauma. I'm not talking about baggage. Everyone has baggage. That can be dealt with. I'm talking about trauma that requires professional help.
> 
> Can't do it anymore. I empathize and sympathize with people that have been dealt some terrible blows in their lives. It sucks. I'm not the guy to save them. I don't have that skill and I wont be used in a selfish way as an emotional crutch or punching bag.
> 
> Any whiff of past trauma and I will have to bow out.


I'm with you on this one. Especially when you barely know someone and they want to tell you all the stories of past trauma. I remember the first real conversation I had with this girl I met years ago, she starts telling me about how she was molested by a family member. What do you even say to that? "Uh...sorry? Have a nice day!" Then back slowly away.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

Enigma32 said:


> I'm with you on this one. Especially when you barely know someone and they want to tell you all the stories of past trauma. I remember the first real conversation I had with this girl I met years ago, she starts telling me about how she was molested by a family member. What do you even say to that? "Uh...sorry? Have a nice day!" Then back slowly away.


Exactly. 
There are obviously people out there that have gotten the correct kind of help and have healed. So many do not. Those are the ones that aren't worth the time, and all they will do is spread their pain and misery to you. 
This was a major factor in my marriage falling apart. Something that I keep telling myself to talk about when I get some time to update my thread.


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## Tuscany (10 mo ago)

Blaming all their unhappiness on their exes, or their loneliness on the faults of the opposite sex.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

LATERILUS79 said:


> You adore sex...... but you were exceptionally quick to attack men that also adored sex. That makes absolutely no sense.


I think she was "attacking" "expectations". Maybe I'm wrong.

I never went on a date with expectations. I liked the girl, we hanged around, eventually had sex if we found we could trust each other. This could be after 2 days or 20... there are no fixed rules, IMO.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Wow. Could have fooled me with your previous comments about men that you don't resent them.
> You adore sex...... but you were exceptionally quick to attack men that also adored sex. That makes absolutely no sense.


I don't know what I've written to set you off, but you're adding emotion where there is none.

I've not _attacked_ anyone. I don't resent anyone. I don't hate anyone. 

You seem to be looking for something in my posts that's just not there.

If you disagree with me, that's fine. Feel free to move along and ignore me. 

I'm done responding to your misinterpretations. 🏳


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## DamianDamian (Aug 14, 2019)

I didn't want someone that drank on the regular, but I guess others don't mind that, however I'd class excessive drinking as a red flag - it makes someone more unstable. 
I didn't want someone with close opposite sex 'friends' - that worked it's way up to my number 1 requirement over the years. I guess other people have their own thoughts about that, but personally I just think it's weird and in some cases it's because of a need for attention and a personality disorder. I've met loads of young women when I was younger with heaps of guy mates and they were almost always promiscuous users.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Andy1001 said:


> I swear this quote has hit home with me more than any quote I’ve ever read on tam.
> I have been on hundreds of dates and most of them ended in sex.
> I met my now wife one morning without ever expecting to meet anyone. I asked her out and she refused and let me be honest I wasn’t used to being knocked back.
> I persevered and eventually she agreed to go out with me an to be my girlfriend.
> ...


That's what happens when a connection is made without sex, assuming there is attraction of course.

I remember during our early dates I'd touch his hand or arm and the chemistry was clear. And things you have to work a bit and wait for are always more valuable.

Maybe I have a little romantic in me but I feel like a little something is lost when sex comes too quickly. What is too quickly is of course subjective but I think some kind of connection should be there.


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

If I have to compete with the ghosts of boyfriends past, I’m OUT! Learned that the hard way.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

RebuildingMe said:


> _*Initially:*_
> *-all they talk about is their kids (my kids are my world syndrome)*


When I was dating in my late 40's/early 50's, I avoided men with dependent children like the plague, and the MINUTE I saw that insipid line being used in their dating profile, _*"my children are my world" *_I couldn't hit the 'back' button fast enough. That is so damned overused and corny.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

I can usually weed them out by how they text and other small clues.

-Excessive use of !!!!!!!!!! Save it for bear sightings and car wrecks.
- Improper application of lose/loose.
-Weird affinity for the Grateful Dead and Jimmy Buffett.

😝😆
-


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> When I was dating in my late 40's/early 50's, I avoided men with dependent children like the plague, and the MINUTE I saw that insipid line being used in their dating profile, _*"my children are my world" *_I couldn't hit the 'back' button fast enough. That is so damned overused and corny.


Men use that too? Ugh 🤮


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## Not (Jun 12, 2017)

RebuildingMe said:


> Men use that too? Ugh 🤮


All the time.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

Yeah… don’t see myself using that comment in my future dating profile. Sounds exceptionally weak coming from a man. 

My children are my children. I love them very much and will do my best to raise them the way I see fit. 

My romantic life is separate from my kids.


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Yeah… don’t see myself using that comment in my future dating profile. Sounds exceptionally weak coming from a man.
> 
> My children are my children. I love them very much and will do my best to raise them the way I see fit.
> 
> My romantic life is separate from my kids.


Yes, for the right woman, I’ll make the time, kids or no kids. They are an important part of my life. My “world”? Definitely not.


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

If a man talk non-stop about himself without asking questions about me- done!
Bad teeth- cannot do!
Overweight- not going there!
Does not talk and I have to prompt everything out of his mouth by asking question after question- nope!
If he is checking out the waitress more than he is involved in conversation with me- no thanks!
I actually had a man tell me that his exwife had 88 pairs of shoes and he was slowly throwing them in the trash. needless to say that didn't work.
Men posing as 10-20 years younger online only to not recognize them once you meet.
Overly religious men
Drinkers


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## Not (Jun 12, 2017)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Yeah… don’t see myself using that comment in my future dating profile. Sounds exceptionally weak coming from a man.
> 
> My children are my children. I love them very much and will do my best to raise them the way I see fit.
> 
> My romantic life is separate from my kids.


I think it’s important to mention that you have kids and what ages but also mention that you’ll make time for the right person. When I see a profile worded similar to that I don’t automatically then pass on it.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Could just be me but I would never play second fiddle to a territorial pet.

That's a hard stop for this barbarian.

I've seen guys putting up with dogs that thought the girlfriend was their territory and the dippy woman thought it was funny. I've never knowingly eaten a dog but those mutts are tempting.😈


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

AVR1962 said:


> If a man talk non-stop about himself without asking questions about me- done!
> Bad teeth- cannot do!
> Overweight- not going there!
> Does not talk and I have to prompt everything out of his mouth by asking question after question- nope!
> ...


Any drinks or heavy drinkers?

I enjoy beer and an occasional bourbon.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

Not said:


> I think it’s important to mention that you have kids and what ages but also mention that you’ll make time for the right person. When I see a profile worded similar to that I don’t automatically then pass on it.


As per usual, you are a WEALTH of information. Thank you. I'll keep that in mind!


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

AVR1962 said:


> I actually had a man tell me that his exwife had 88 pairs of shoes and he was slowly throwing them in the trash. needless to say that didn't work.


great post, AVR.

I agreed with you up until this point. 

I would have found this man even MORE intriguing. He was Shawshank Redemptioning his exwife's shoes! That is brilliant! 🤣


----------



## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

gameopoly5 said:


> Recognising red flags in people situations can only come with experience.
> I`m an older guy now but back in my younger days I often failed to see red flags.
> One example, I had strong feelings for a girl who lived in my housing complex.
> We went out often together with at most times me footing the bill.
> ...


I think it is very common to either not see the red flags or by-pass them, especially when we were younger. Time and experience shows us what we need to see. 
Did you have problems "footing the bill"? This is something women are told to do to show respect to men.....especially when we were younger.
Did you pose as a friend? What do you mean by "not receiving a kiss"? Generally, men are thought to be the ones to show first interest. Waste of time? How? Because she did not meet your needs without her even knowing what you wanted? Did you try to kiss her? Did you express your interest in her? Or was this something she was supposed to take a lead on or assume?


----------



## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Wow.
> 
> You are WAY out of line.
> 
> ...


I think the difficult part for women is knowing when is man is sincere about them and not just what the woman can offer the man. Rejection is tough!!!!!! Luckily ladies don't walk in those shoes as I think it is even more devastating for women to face rejection.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

ConanHub said:


> Any drinks or heavy drinkers?
> 
> I enjoy beer and an occasional bourbon.


I enjoy bourbon and an occasional beer


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

If it isn’t working out short term don’t expect it to improve. Move on already.
Not gender specific.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Numb26 said:


> I enjoy bourbon and an occasional beer


You are singlehandedly keeping the bourbon industry afloat.😋


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

Not said:


> I think it’s important to mention that you have kids and what ages but also mention that you’ll make time for the right person. When I see a profile worded similar to that I don’t automatically then pass on it.



Absolutely!!

Saying its "unmanly" is ridiculous...Kids didn't ask to be born and aren't the fault of a divorce...So you have to put them first...That doesn't mean you can't date, but avoid those that aren't understanding of this...Trust me, those usually wind up being the inconsiderate and selfish types and you want no part of that....

I think when people say that its not to be taken as a negative....Its probably to just ward off those types that pitch a tantrum because your kids team made the playoffs and the time conflicts with the company picnic..


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

AVR1962 said:


> I think the difficult part for women is knowing when is man is sincere about them and not just what the woman can offer the man. Rejection is tough!!!!!! Luckily ladies don't walk in those shoes as I think it is even more devastating for women to face rejection.


Thank you for recognizing this. Yes, rejection is very tough. All men have to learn this early on in life. I also agree that it is going to hit women harder because it is not something they are used to. 

Disparaging men because they will show disappointment, shame or sadness due to being rejected is not cool. 

I personally believe it should be pretty easy for a woman to tell if a man is being sincere. If he is talking to you, then he sincerely finds you physically attractive. 

After that, you will need to continue to vet him to see if he wants to have a relationship or just sex. Of course there are many men out there that will just want sex. There are also many men out there that want a relationship too.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

I had so many red flags second time round that it's a miracle that I found someone.


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

LATERILUS79 said:


> I personally believe it should be pretty easy for a woman to tell if a man is being sincere. If he is talking to you, then he sincerely finds you physically attractive.
> 
> After that, you will need to continue to vet him to see if he wants to have a relationship or just sex. Of course there are many men out there that will just want sex. There are also many men out there that want a relationship too.


Agreed! the hard part is your last statement. It takes time to get to know a person and part of relationships is sex but women have to try to discern if the man is engaging to get to know her and move forward, or is he enjoying the company at the time and continuing to look, or is this someone that is just out for his own gain.


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

Numb26 said:


> I enjoy bourbon and an occasional beer


I am fine if a person has a drink from time to time but I have found so many men just wanting to party and that is not my thing.I find it a turn off.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

AVR1962 said:


> I am fine if a person has a drink from time to time but I have found so many men just wanting to party and that is not my thing.I find it a turn off.


I gave up partying when I was in my 20's


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

AVR1962 said:


> Agreed! the hard part is your last statement. It takes time to get to know a person and part of relationships is sex but women have to try to discern if the man is engaging to get to know her and move forward, or is he enjoying the company at the time and continuing to look, or is this someone that is just out for his own gain.


Absolutely. I see no issue here or to make men out to be villains due to this dynamic. Men and women are adults and can figure these things out. Relationships take time. Getting to know someone takes time. Some men and women are great people. Some aren’t. That’s life. 

Getting mad at all men because they want sex is beyond ridiculous. DUH!!! Of course men want sex! Why else would we be talking with women? Very few men are going to look to women to make friendships. We have other men for friends.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Numb26 said:


> I gave up partying when I was in my 20's


Now you just DRINK...Lol!!!


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## Corgi Mum (10 mo ago)

Andy1001 said:


> It can be a line in a movie or any other example you want to quote.
> If I’m on a date and she half heartedly attempts to pay the bill and I tell her to get the tip and she leaves five dollars on a two hundred dollar bill I instantly know what I’m dealing with.


No disagreement from me!

What I meant was it's so obvious it's almost a cliche. Everyone knows they're going to be assessed on their behaviour toward serving staff so they fake exemplary behaviour in the early dating period in order to pass that threshold..

The rudeness and cheap tipping doesn't show up for a few months.


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## Enigma32 (Jul 6, 2020)

Corgi Mum said:


> No disagreement from me!
> 
> What I meant was it's so obvious it's almost a cliche. Everyone knows they're going to be assessed on their behaviour toward serving staff so they fake exemplary behaviour in the early dating period in order to pass that threshold..
> *
> The rudeness and cheap tipping doesn't show up for a few months.*


I can't remember where but I once read that 3 months is about how long most people can pretend to be something they are not. So, 3 months of dating, that's when you can expect the bad traits to really show.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Another one to watch out for are men and women who assert they are sexually dominant, despite them never having experienced sharing sex with anyone.


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## Enigma32 (Jul 6, 2020)

Personal said:


> Another one to watch out for are men and women who assert they are sexually dominant, despite them never having experienced sharing sex with anyone.


I used to always have ladies tell me they were submissive, which I found out actually meant they don't actually do a lot. And yeah, it became a bit of a red flag to me.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Personal said:


> Another one to watch out for are men and women who assert they are sexually dominant, despite them never having experienced sharing sex with anyone.


And wanting to do a sex power move from a video game?😉


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

minimalME said:


> This is nonsense. ‘Going anywhere’ = you having sex.
> 
> If you have a timeline, then you have expectations.


Um, yes, I expect to be having sex with a woman I’m dating. 
I never had a specific timeframe or exact number of dates, but yes I expect us to be getting progressively more intimate. If that’s not happening, I’m not going to continue wasting time. 
Men aren’t taking you out on dates to “be friends“ with you. it’s a romantic endeavor.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

DudeInProgress said:


> Um, yes, I expect to be having sex with a woman I’m dating.
> I never had a specific timeframe or exact number of dates, but yes I expect us to be getting progressively more intimate. If that’s not happening, I’m not going to continue wasting time.
> *Men aren’t taking you out on dates to “be friends“ with you. it’s a romantic endeavor.*


Men aren't taking women out to be friends, and they also aren't taking women out to become husbands.

The definitions and the goals have changed.

And I'd challenge the notion that dating is romantic. I don't see that.

Dating is now synonymous with sex, so it's become a sexual endeavor.

That's what it means not to 'waste time' - getting to sex as quickly as possible with no commitments, responsibilities or obligations.

Sex is the goal (as it always has been), and 'dating' is now the vehicle to get there. The vehicle used to be marriage. It's not anymore.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Young at Heart said:


> While not addressed to me. I do have a few thoughts.
> 
> In some Scandanavian countries, when people consider dating, they immediately have sex on the first date to see if there is a sexual spark or it is worth investing the time and effort in dating to get to know them. There are so many stories on TAM about sexually incompatible couples or at least couples with dramatically different sexual desires, that there may be some wisdom in that.


The problem I see with a rule of sex within the first 3 dates is that if a woman does this, she's likely to have a LOT of sex partners in her life. For many men, this would make her someone they would never want to marry or have a serious relationship with.

We have thread after thread here on TAM of men talking about how many previous sex partners they are ok with their girlfriend/wife having.

I found out very early in dating as an adult that having sex with a guy in the first few dates was almost guarantee that he never wanted to go out again. I've discussed this with a lot of women and most say the same thing. The quickest way to ensure that a guy never calls you back to have sex with them early in dating. They seem to assume that you're a **** and they dump you.

Women are faced with the fact that a lot of men are once and done... they want the quick conquest and then lose interest.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

oldshirt said:


> Again, I don't think anyone here literally meant that if they do not have PIV sex by date 3 that there will be no date 4. If an individual does have that as a hard and fast rule, he can correct me, but what I am coming away with what has been said thus far is if there does not appear to be some honest spark and attraction reasonably early in the dating process, then there likely is no point for either party to continue.


There are a lot of threads, probably dozens of them, here on TAM in which most men posting say that they go by the 3-date rule. No sex by 3rd date and they will not see the woman again. Are you now saying that they really don't mean what they say?


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> The problem I see with a rule of sex within the first 3 dates is that if a woman does this, she's likely to have a LOT of sex partners in her life.


Exactly! We've discussed this here before. It's not sustainable to have sex with every person you date. Which is basically the requirement that's being presented - 'Do it with me, but you better not be doing it with everyone.'


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

lifeistooshort said:


> My bf and I didn't have sex for 3 months.
> 
> Four years later we're at it 5 times a week.
> 
> I'm glad we took some tine to know each other, and by the time it finally happened I was ready to devour him. I'm still ready to devour him.


Good for you. I've found that it's better to get to know a man very well before having sex with them. Three dates is not long enough to find out what makes a guy tick. 

Too many men put on a good act to get you in bed. Then they start letting down their guard and you find out they are not a good match.

I'm high drive sexually. Sex daily is my preference. But I want to know what I'm getting into fore going that far.


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## Enigma32 (Jul 6, 2020)

EleGirl said:


> The problem I see with a rule of sex within the first 3 dates is that if a woman does this, she's likely to have a LOT of sex partners in her life. For many men, this would make her someone they would never want to marry or have a serious relationship with.
> 
> We have thread after thread here on TAM of men talking about how many previous sex partners they are ok with their girlfriend/wife having.
> 
> ...


It can definitely be an issue for ladies. I get it. I think it mostly comes down to being a bit choosey who you spend your time with. If you're going on dates with a lot of strangers, then yeah, it could be easy to rack up some serious numbers by following the 3 date rule. I think people should mostly date people they already know. If someone finds that they keep picking the wrong people over and over, there might be an issue with their standards. 

I don't know of any guys that will get laid and then decide to pass on you based solely on the fact he got laid. More likely he was already gonna leave anyway, or maybe he felt you weren't sexually compatible. I bet other men here will echo this.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

Enigma32 said:


> *More likely he was already gonna leave anyway...*


...but decided to wait until _after_ he'd had sex?


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## Enigma32 (Jul 6, 2020)

minimalME said:


> ...but decided to wait until _after_ he'd had sex?


Sure. What else do you do if the sex is plain awful? Can't exactly give a girl 2 weeks notice to find another partner. Sometimes people aren't compatible. The other guys were going to leave anyway, just as I said.

Just to clarify, the guys I said were going to leave anyway, they are the ones that either are not looking for anything meaningful, or not looking for anything meaningful with YOU. If they don't get laid, they will leave. If they do get laid, they will still leave. That's what I mean. This is where ladies need to be choosey, IMO.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Enigma32 said:


> It can definitely be an issue for ladies. I get it. I think it mostly comes down to being a bit choosey who you spend your time with. If you're going on dates with a lot of strangers, then yeah, it could be easy to rack up some serious numbers by following the 3 date rule. I think people should mostly date people they already know. If someone finds that they keep picking the wrong people over and over, there might be an issue with their standards.


When I was dating, it was normal to date people you already knew. Though there were a few times that I went on a date with a few guys I met on campus or some other place I spent time.

Today, it's different with online dating sites. People meet online, then have 3 dates and somehow, they are supposed to have sex after spending maybe 6 to 9 hours together? While sometimes people hit it off very quickly and it turns into a good, long-term relationship very often it does not.



Enigma32 said:


> I don't know of any guys that will get laid and then decide to pass on you based solely on the fact he got laid. More likely he was already gonna leave anyway, or maybe he felt you weren't sexually compatible. I bet other men here will echo this.


I don't think that guys who do that do it simply because they got laid. I think that they have no intention of having a relationship and are only looking to see how many women they can have sex with. So yes, they were already gonna leave but they played the game and pretended to be interested to get laid. Then they are off to the next conquest.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

Enigma32 said:


> This is where ladies need to be choosey, IMO.


I agree with you. Knowing a person takes a significant amount of time.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Enigma32 said:


> Sure. What else do you do if the sex is plain awful? Can't exactly give a girl 2 weeks notice to find another partner. Sometimes people aren't compatible. The other guys were going to leave anyway, just as I said.
> 
> Just to clarify, the guys I said were going to leave anyway, they are the ones that either are not looking for anything meaningful, or not looking for anything meaningful with YOU. If they don't get laid, they will leave. If they do get laid, they will still leave. That's what I mean. This is where ladies need to be choosey, IMO.


Yea, women need to be choosey. And one way to be choosey is to not jump in bed with every guy they see 3 times.


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## Enigma32 (Jul 6, 2020)

EleGirl said:


> Yea, women need to be choosey. And one way to be choosey is to not jump in bed with every guy they see 3 times.


One of the reasons men and women will always spar on this issue. If a man takes a chance and waits, he later finds out she never liked him and he just wasted his time. If a woman has sex too soon, she finds out he was never into her and she wasted her time and affection. I can't speak for all men but I'd personally be flexible on the 3rd date rule. Men also have to be choosey who we spend our time with is all. It's not like anyone is actually honest about much of anything when dating. Sadly.


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## Enigma32 (Jul 6, 2020)

EleGirl said:


> I don't think that guys who do that do it simply because they got laid. I think that they have no intention of having a relationship and are only looking to see how many women they can have sex with. So yes, they were already gonna leave but they played the game and pretended to be interested to get laid. Then they are off to the next conquest.


I really think these guys are far more rare than most ladies believe. More often, it's a matter of the guy not wanting a relationship with that particular woman, not that he doesn't want one at all. I mean, if you meet a good looking, charming guy with his life in order and he's been single for 10 years, he's definitely not gonna stick around. That should be glaringly obvious. A guy that has been single for a year or 2 since his last ex...he's probably looking for a relationship but just doesn't think you're right for one another.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> I don't think that guys who do that do it simply because they got laid. I think that they have no intention of having a relationship and are only looking to see how many women they can have sex with. So yes, they were already gonna leave but they played the game and pretended to be interested to get laid. Then they are off to the next conquest.


I've no doubt it happens, yet it certainly isn't everyone.

Of my own experience in one instance I shared sex with one woman (2nd date same evening as 1st date) and didn't come back for more, and I liked her found her to be very attractive as well.

Yet the sex was the worst sexual experience I have shared sexually with anyone, it wasn't fun at all, I didn't enjoy it and she had all sorts of restrictions. Including it must be in the dark. And this was with a divorced woman, who was older than me, who asked me out, paid for our date, and picked me up, then took me to her place afterwards and she initiated the sex. Yet there was no connection in the doing, closed mouth kissing, amongst other nope, when sharing that sex and I was loathe to share more of that with her. So I let her go the next day after that.

Yet women often initiate sex within three dates as well, as was the norm in my experience with different women inclusive of being with my wife.

As to this idea of conquests, yes some people view sex like that. Yet I never have viewed the sharing of sex like that at all. And there were plenty of times I turned some women down as well.

Now of course it's hypothetical, yet my wife has said if she were out there again, she would willingly share sex with others on first dates as well if she was attracted to them sufficiently in the moment (and good for her if that is what she wants). Plus we have other women friends who also have no problem sharing sex, early on without it being an issue. At the same time of course we know other men and women, who want longer etc.

Sharing sex early on is fine for some of us, regardless of our gender, and it isn't always nefarious. In the same way holding out on sex is fine for some others, regardless of their gender, and it isn't always nefarious.

Not forgetting I have had a wonderful relationship with my wife through 26 years, and we started as nothing more than a no strings attached, not expecting to last past winter, time of some lustful fun. Yet here we are, rockin' our togetherness. Of which there are plenty of people who wait and all the rest and they aren't as fortunate as us in sharing a great marital relationship through many years like ours.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

EleGirl said:


> The problem I see with a rule of sex within the first 3 dates is that if a woman does this, she's likely to have a LOT of sex partners in her life. For many men, this would make her someone they would never want to marry or have a serious relationship with.
> 
> We have thread after thread here on TAM of men talking about how many previous sex partners they are ok with their girlfriend/wife having.
> 
> ...


I am sorry for your experience. That may have been the case once upon a time. I do however, remember when I first started dating and was very inexperienced, some women scared me with their sexuality. They made me want things, that I knew could destroy my future and the career I was studying for. 

Today, I think that is a cultural stereotype. You may be right in certain middle eastern and Asian countries that still practice honor killings. However, as I pointed out, I don't think that is true in some European countries. I also think that with the delayed age of marriage in the USA, that virgin or "near-virgin" marriage partners is a concept that is less common.

I believe that virginity at the marriage ceremony is highly over-rated. There are too many stories on TAM about incompatible sexuality among married couples and the problems that causes after only a few years of marriage. The danger I see in sex too early in a relationship is that sex can create chemical and emotional bonding, when real comparability does not yet exist or where one or both partners are not ready to settle down. And adding pregnancy to force a marriage just complicates things even more.

As I said earlier, dating to have a companion to go to peer events is significantly different from feeling that you want to settle down and find someone to share your life with. At a certain point in life, people want to settle down and find a long term life partner. When they are exploring that kind of partner after having learned more about the characteristics they desire in a life-partner, sex and sexual chemistry are very important .


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

EleGirl said:


> When I was dating, it was normal to date people you already knew. Though there were a few times that I went on a date with a few guys I met on campus or some other place I spent time.
> 
> Today, it's different with online dating sites. People meet online, then have 3 dates and somehow, they are supposed to have sex after spending maybe 6 to 9 hours together? While sometimes people hit it off very quickly and it turns into a good, long-term relationship very often it does not.
> 
> ...


There may be guys like that, but they were not the majority of guys I knew growing up. Most have been raised to treat women with respect. I know that some women when I first started dating scared me off from second or third dates because of how sexually adventurous they were. It was not them, it was me and my fear of ending up a father before graduating from college and having to drop out to support a child.

However, once I decided it was close to time to settle down that I would be graduating soon, I realized that the choice of women at college was far better than what I would find once I devoted myself to building a career in a 9 to 5 job. I wanted to find a woman who was smart, had good values, wanted a good future, was someone I could trust, sexually desired me and who I sexually desired.


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## Loves Coffee (4 mo ago)

lifeistooshort said:


> Don't forget the love bombing. That's a fabulous way to hide who you really are.
> 
> Ask me how I know.


I came to say the same thing about love bombing since I've experienced it before. 

Big red flag is advancing the relationship too fast. Borderline personalities can't fake their real selves for long periods of time. If you the reader aren't familiar with this term and are dating, you should do yourself a favor and go find out about it to save yourself a lot of grief.

Advancing the relationship too fast isn't sex on the 3rd date or what is being discussed here recently. It's putting on the sex hot and heavy to keep you around. It's the beginnings of sex manipulation. "I want him to stay" so sex every night then morning. You're going home? I want you here come have sex with me. This carries on for some time. Next up they are invading your life and smashing boundaries and asking for permanence at breakneck speed. Once the hooks are in, the arguments start.

Ask me how I know.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Loves Coffee said:


> I came to say the same thing about love bombing since I've experienced it before.
> 
> Big red flag is advancing the relationship too fast. Borderline personalities can't fake their real selves for long periods of time. If you the reader aren't familiar with this term and are dating, you should do yourself a favor and go find out about it to save yourself a lot of grief.
> 
> ...


It doesn't even have to be sex, although that is an element of it. Male live bombers will shower you with compliments about how wonderful and beautiful you are and how you're the love of their life, etc.

It's designed to keep you distracted from the glaring red flags.


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## joannacroc (Dec 17, 2014)

Someone who overshares early on is trying to create a false sense of closeness and trust.

Someone who shows disdain for others in even small snippets - are they rude or abrupt with people they barely know?

Small lies usually are a sign they don't have much respect for the truth.

If they lack in real friendship.

If they start talking badly about their exes to the point of demonizing them.

Those are all red flags.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

EleGirl said:


> There are a lot of threads, probably dozens of them, here on TAM in which most men posting say that they go by the 3-date rule. No sex by 3rd date and they will not see the woman again. Are you now saying that they really don't mean what they say?


I guess I am questioning the semantics and whether they are truly meaning that if they do not literally have sexual intercourse by the 3 date, that there will be no 4th. 

That just seems a bit extreme and undo stress and pressure on BOTH People. I mean I am as horny and sexually motivated as any guy out there, but I don’t want to have that kind of pressure on myself even. Yes I want to have a sexual relationship but I want it to occur naturally and organically according to everyone’s desire and comfort levels. Even as a guy I don’t want to feel like I have to institute deadlines and push for a list of task completions. 

I think it’s reasonable that if there are no signs of interest and no signs of desire or attraction after a few dates that it is probably in both people’s interest to wish each other well and go back on the market. 

I don’t know why a woman would want to keep seeing someone she was not attracted to either. 

But it just seems overly rigid and even unrealistic to literally require full sexual intercourse that early in a dating relationship and I question whether they mean that literally or whether they truly mean if they have not gone all the way by date 3 that there will be no 4th. 

But then I have not been on the single’s dating market since Bill Clinton’s first term in office. Maybe things are that different by now. 

Even so, I would not see not having PIV sex by date 3 as any kind of red flag at all unless there was no other signs of attraction or physical desire whatsoever.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> I guess I am questioning the semantics and whether they are truly meaning that if they do not literally have sexual intercourse by the 3 date, that there will be no 4th.
> 
> That just seems a bit extreme and undo stress and pressure on BOTH People. I mean I am as horny and sexually motivated as any guy out there, but I don’t want to have that kind of pressure on myself even. Yes I want to have a sexual relationship but I want it to occur naturally and organically according to everyone’s desire and comfort levels. Even as a guy I don’t want to feel like I have to institute deadlines and push for a list of task completions.
> 
> ...


I'm certainly not a dating expert by any stretch, but your point makes sense. If there is no sign of any physical attraction by the third date, then yeah it probably isn't going to happen. But sex by the 3rd date? To each their own, but that actually seems slutty to me, for both men and women. I dated my wife almost 3 months before we had sex. If we had sex on our 3rd date I would have thought she was easy.


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## Not (Jun 12, 2017)

I don't see the three date rule as a hard and fast thing either. For me, if some sort of sexual tension isn't present by around date three then I don't think it will ever arrive. I vary rarely make it past date one. If I'm on date three with someone that means I see him as having some serious potential and I'm really interested in him as a person so sexual tension will most likely be there. Date three is almost unheard of for me though lol!


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## Loves Coffee (4 mo ago)

I would never make it to date 2 without sexual tension. If there isn't some serious flirting going on then they're nexted. I don't think I ever made it to date 3 without sex already happening. If it wasn't going to happen, then no 3rd date. If it was going to happen, things were pretty inevitable by that point. There's usually enough texting/calling between dates that you already know.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

I don't understand the bickering about sexual expectations (although I love all the different opinions!)....I will never be resentful or annoyed at any man who has a "3 date rule" for sex with me, I don't look down on anyone (guy or girl) who has that standard or feel slighted by him, because that just shows that we might not be looking for the same things from eachother. 

I will only be having sex with men who I feel a connection to and have a future with, because casual sex doesn't excite me at all. And dating someone will be the way that I will get to know him to form a connection and see if there is a future with him.

I won't need or want expensive dates because I just want to spend time together doing anything, and I don't mind paying for myself...and I will definitely want to get progressively more physical and intimate the more comfortable that I feel with him (which is what fuels MY desire for a man). And the more I get to know and like him, the more excited I will be to get close to him.

But I certainly won't be pressured by him to be more intimate than I feel ready for just to keep him interested, just like I won't pressure HIM to commit more of himself to me than HE feels ready for. And I will be very open and willing to talk about all these things with him without judgment, to make sure he knows what my feelings and intentions are with him, and of course so I will know his!

So if at any time he decides that being with me isn't meeting his needs (any of them, not just sexual), I would agree that he SHOULD move on to someone else who will make him happier, just like I will do if I feel that way about him.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

LisaDiane said:


> I don't understand the bickering about sexual expectations (although I love all the different opinions!)....I will never be resentful or annoyed at any man who has a "3 date rule" for sex with me, I don't look down on anyone (guy or girl) who has that standard or feel slighted by him, because that just shows that we might not be looking for the same things from eachother.
> 
> I will only be having sex with men who I feel a connection to and have a future with, because casual sex doesn't excite me at all. And dating someone will be the way that I will get to know him to form a connection and see if there is a future with him.
> 
> ...


We would only make it to the appetizer! 😉🤣🤣🤣🤣


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Numb26 said:


> We would only make it to the appetizer! 😉🤣🤣🤣🤣


Wait...do you mean you and me? Did you even read anything I wrote, Mr. FWB-Forever!!! Lol!!

Although I DO have a weakness for bourbon-soaked men and deep fried onion rings...


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

LisaDiane said:


> Wait...do you mean you and me? Did you even read anything I wrote, Mr. FWB-Forever!!! Lol!!
> 
> Although I DO have a weakness for bourbon-soaked men and deep fried onion rings...


Bourbon, ok. No deep fried food though.....only exception is deep fried oreos. 🤣🤣


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

Numb26 said:


> Bourbon, ok. No deep fried food though.....only exception is deep fried oreos. 🤣🤣


Seriously? Those are good? 

I’m gonna have to try that sometime.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Seriously? Those are good?
> 
> I’m gonna have to try that sometime.


They are good!! Good enough for me to break my "no fried food" rule.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

I dunno about the sex thing...

I guess if the goal is to just get laid, then yeah, just like fishing, if you aren't getting any bites, then you dont waste any time and move the boat,,,

I am such an oddball and have a lot of potential deal breakers for many prospects that I've had to focus more on whether we would have any chance at even meeting let alone being in the sack...And If I am honest, I would rather a woman that wasn't so great in bed, but better matched on all other levels, than another one that isn't and brings a midget along and swings off the chandeliers in the bedroom...

Like "serial dating" I don't get that and would never in a million years consider it...I know you can get a lot of sex and it's probably fun for some, but I couldn't stand to be with any woman that wasn't really compatible in a more than lukewarm way..

I would be fine to be patient if that person could tolerate my crap for more than a week and be compatible in the other areas... but then again I tend to think more with the big head than the little one these days, but that wasn't always the case...

Waiting for it would not be a red flag.....


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## snowbum (Dec 14, 2021)

I didn’t say no sex I said I wouldn’t date someone who’s out at date 3 if there hasn’t been sex yet


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

Just for conversation, how much does your own red flags affect your dating? I know mine does.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

Numb26 said:


> Just for conversation, how much does your own red flags affect your dating? I know mine does.


To me, this is a much better question.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

Numb26 said:


> Just for conversation, how much does your own red flags affect your dating? I know mine does.


Guess I’ll find out here soon enough. 

I’d like to think that after dealing with my exwife, I won’t bend on my red flags. Well, I don’t know. I guess it depends on how sweet the boobs are. 

JUST JOKING!

I made that mistake in my 20s. Don’t plan on getting bamboobzled again.


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## Not (Jun 12, 2017)

I came across a great quote today. It’s never the wrong time to sleep with the right person.
That’s it in a nutshell. Each and every single one of us will know it’s time when it just feels right.


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## Corgi Mum (10 mo ago)

Numb26 said:


> Just for conversation, how much does your own red flags affect your dating? I know mine does.


Ha! When you live in a place where half the male population likes to hunt, being vegetarian is a major red flag. Not that I impose my eating preferences on anyone else, I don't care what other people choose to eat, but it seems to be a huge issue.

I don't have a close relationship with my parents -- red flag. Oh wait, they're alcoholics (or were, my mother is deceased), maybe there's a good reason for that. I'm a non-drinker by choice (see "alcoholic parents" for the reason behind that) and _that's_ a red flag for some.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

minimalME said:


> Men aren't taking women out to be friends, and they also aren't taking women out to become husbands.
> 
> The definitions and the goals have changed.
> 
> ...


Reason I am concerned for my son. To many little 304s wanting to hop in bed with the boys. I was one of the nice guys looking for a LTR. Had several girls offering opportunity in HS/college. But I was old school looking for the one, refraining for marriage. At 23 I finally had decided I was not gonna find a girl that had not already been screwing around. I was angry at a female and had sex with a teen mom chasing me just so I could put a stop to being ridiculed as a virgin. Wish I had not let them get to me. Met my wife about a year later.


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## Enigma32 (Jul 6, 2020)

Divinely Favored said:


> Every woman, who got a green light from me, immediately got physical with me so my experience and perception have been skewed a certain way.
> 
> At 23 I finally had decided I was not gonna find a girl that had not already been screwing around. I was angry at a female and had sex with a teen mom chasing me just so I could put a stop to being ridiculed as a virgin.


Funny, because this was me as well. It was always the ladies pressuring me into having sex and it was almost always them trying to get laid before the 3rd date. I really think that's why the 3rd date rule is a thing. Women made it so, not men. At least in my experience.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

Corgi Mum said:


> Ha! When you live in a place where half the male population likes to hunt, being vegetarian is a major red flag. Not that I impose my eating preferences on anyone else, I don't care what other people choose to eat, but it seems to be a huge issue.
> 
> I don't have a close relationship with my parents -- red flag. Oh wait, they're alcoholics (or were, my mother is deceased), maybe there's a good reason for that. I'm a non-drinker by choice (see "alcoholic parents" for the reason behind that) and _that's_ a red flag for some.


Had a co-worker that was also, her son and hubby were not. They hunted and she cooked the deer and other meat for family, but would not eat it herself. Greatly respected her for that.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Divinely Favored said:


> Had a co-worker that was also, her son and hubby were not. They hunted and she cooked the deer and other meat for family, but would not eat it herself. Greatly respected her for that.


I know a long married couple like this. She's vegetarian and he does the Paleo thing.

They have other issues bur seem to have worked the food thing out. It may help that she's not what you'd call an ethical vegetarian.....she thinks it helps her stay thin. For sure it can, but there are plenty of chubby vegetarians (pasta is veg....lol).


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

Enigma32 said:


> Funny, because this was me as well. It was always the ladies pressuring me into having sex and it was almost always them trying to get laid before the 3rd date. I really think that's why the 3rd date rule is a thing. Women made it so, not men. At least in my experience.


Yep ..makes me think "She's for the streets!" Woman trying to jump in the sack that quick , to me is a big flashing warning sign and my Jedi side says "This is not the woman your looking for! Not LTR material." 

Being the old school guy I was, I would be thinking just how many notches in this ole girls bedpost if she is that quick?


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

lifeistooshort said:


> I know a long married couple like this. She's vegetarian and he does the Paleo thing.
> 
> They have other issues bur seem to have worked the food thing out. It may help that she's not what you'd call an ethical vegetarian.....she thinks it helps her stay thin. For sure it can, but there are plenty of chubby vegetarians (pasta is veg....lol).


It was not the thin thing. I think I't was just a health thing overall and aversion to meat. She was always cold, I would tell her not enough iron! A big ole medium rare ribeye would fix that!😁

She was as little fragile thing, I think her growth was stunted. She had attitude to make up for it though. She was the sex offender officer at our parole office for years. She took no crap and was in their eye like red onions. That was a very mentally difficult job for her as a past rape victim. 

Her hubby said she would come home many nights and cry. The offense reports and victim statements were difficult to read. Most likely a cause for my hypertension and gray hair.

She finally got to a breaking point and quit parole and went to school as grade school teacher.


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> Good for you. I've found that it's better to get to know a man very well before having sex with them. Three dates is not long enough to find out what makes a guy tick.
> 
> Too many men put on a good act to get you in bed. Then they start letting down their guard and you find out they are not a good match.
> 
> I'm high drive sexually. Sex daily is my preference. But I want to know what I'm getting into fore going that far.


It can been complicated. it is important to know the man well before you have sex as too many times us ladies end up with emotional attachment once we do have sex, not in all cases. The hormones released during sex will overlook the red flags too many times as we want that flood or hormones. As for myself, knowing how tricking all this is, I don't wait too long. If I truly like the gentleman I believe sex is part of getting to know him. I too have a strong apatite but I also know what is and what is not going to work for me in the bedroom and I am not going establish feelings for a man before I find out who he is behind close doors.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Not said:


> I came across a great quote today. It’s never the wrong time to sleep with the right person.
> That’s it in a nutshell. Each and every single one of us will know it’s time when it just feels right.


That is a very accurate quote IMHO. 

Where I think a lot of people stumble is they don’t grasp that the opposite is likely just as true in that it will never be the right time with the wrong person as well.

I’ve known people that have dated for a year and even longer and either didn’t have sex or had very awkward and fumbling sexual attempts a number of times but there were always excuses and disclaimers.

They chalked it up to having morals or religious beliefs or not wanting to rush things or be pressured etc etc etc etc etc - 

- but the real reason is they just weren’t sexually compatible and one or the other just simply wasn’t into sex,, or more specifically was not into sex WITH THEM. 

I’ve said this before in other threads, but if someone is perfectly happy and content to not have sex, it’s not because of religious belief, it’s not because of their moral values or their virtue…..

It’s because they are not into you.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

AVR1962 said:


> but I also know what is and what is not going to work for me in the bedroom and I am not going establish feelings for a man before I find out who he is behind close doors.


I guess if he's hung like a doorbell you would want to know that before getting too serious...? 😆


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## 342693 (Mar 2, 2020)

Numb26 said:


> Just for conversation, how much does your own red flags affect your dating? I know mine does.


Wanting a woman that will honor their wedding vows is apparently a huge red flag of mine.


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## 2&out (Apr 16, 2015)

Some interesting responses. I'm a simpleton. A bad / negative attitude, high expectations/hurdles, no obvious chemistry and a lack of a sparkle in her eyes are about my only red flags. But I'm a pig and women ARE sex objects to me. No point in being with them for me otherwise.


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

hamadryad said:


> I guess if he's hung like a doorbell you would want to know that before getting too serious...? 😆


Absolutely! part of compatibility has to do with how two bodies react to one another under the sheets....or on the kitchen counter, lol!!!!!!


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

The discussion is now getting interesting. Some guys are saying they feel like the ladies they dated were trying to jump their bones as soon as possible and they tried to hang out for the 3 date rule. Other folks are saying that some are players for dating multiple people or serial dating in quick succession. 

I think we are each different and that is what makes life interesting.

In my youth in college, I liked to date multiple women at the same time. The day I meet the woman who would become my wife, I drove her home for the weekend and her mother asked me to stay for dinner. I apologized that I had to go back to my college room to do some studying. Actually, I had to go back to pick up a hot blonde I had previously gone out with and take her on a romantic second date on a boat cruising a large lake with dancing and drinking on board. I was hoping for a hot date as opposed to a home cooked meal.

The woman I ultimately married went to college in another state the year after we met. We dated a couple of times during the summer and there was some sexual desire, but she was confused about relationships. We communicated by mail the next year in an interesting long distance relationship, while I dated other women. I never felt that I was in a committed relationship until we discussed if a woman and I were in a committed relationship. During that year she was away, I even got quite serious with another women. I even got a hotel room for us to use so we wouldn't have to make out in my car. However, after the woman who would become my wife moved back and went to the college I was in, we started dating again, and soon we decided to become exclusive and only date each other. We have been married to each other for over 51 years. An yes, since we became exclusive, I have never had sexual intercourse with anyone else.

To me dating was all about learning about people and how we cared about each other. Sexual desire, was an important part of how I felt about women and their sexual desire for me was important to me, as I enjoyed it. Also, some women broke my heart and taught me important lessons about men/women relationships. Others helped me become a better lover, a better man and better partner.

Now when I say sexual desire, I don't mean the third date had to include PIV. To feel increasing levels of sexual desire was important. I also agree that there is a natural progression in dates and exploring sexuality. That sexual progression included flirting, kissing, cuddling, deep mental connection and sharing of dreams of the future, making out, sexual arousal and some act that brought about orgasm for each of us, and then PIV. Each woman I dated had their own sexual progression. For some women it felt natural to go from flirting to fondling and orgasm in a single date. For others, things took longer. I never felt it was proper to push a woman beyond what she wanted to do with her own body. To me the three date rule meant that there needed to be some serious expression of increasing sexual desire by the third date otherwise the relationship was for companionship at social functions, not a romantic relationship with a future. And sometimes, companionship was just fine.

I remember one date in college with a girl I grew up with that ended with no kiss, and absolutely no desire on her part for a second date; i.e. no sexual desire. I thought I knew her, and our seemingly close friendship and shared experiences in grade school through high school had potential for much more. I felt really surprised and rejected. It took a long time to realize she just didn't feel any sexual chemistry toward me or she wasn't in a place where she could let down her "guard" enough to open her heart to anyone. That was part of growing up.

I remember another college date with girl that after our first date we went to secluded part of campus and made out and fondled each other, then talked about the kinds of libraries we each wanted in the house we wanted to live in. That woman knew how to f#ck my mind as well as stimulate my sex organs. Had she not fallen in love with someone else, things could have turned out differently. 

I remember another girl I dated, who seemed way older than her years. I dated her a couple of times. I think she went out with me because I was "normal" and her age. She was an accomplished classical musician and had dated men in their 30's and 40's. She liked being with someone her own age, someone who took her on dates like her friends went on, and I sensed some sexual desire on her part. Ultimately she preferred what older men could spend on her and the fancy places they would take her. I remember taking her bowling with some other people and she was so out of place one of the guys, asked if that was my date or my mother.

In college, it was clear to most women that I was pretty good marriage material; that I would graduate with a good job and career, that I had good ethics and was trustworthy and not bad looking. I always had to be careful about not getting too sexually involved with a woman, as I was not ready to be a father, to drop out to get a job and to support a family. 

I really think that there are too many tragic stories on TAM from men and women who did not do much dating, from people who didn't explore different relationships, and who settled for SO's where they really didn't know each other sexually. So exploring dating and relationships with people of the opposite sex is an important part of growing up. And yes, from my perspective if there isn't some mutual sexual desire by the third date..........consider moving on.


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## Enigma32 (Jul 6, 2020)

SCDad01 said:


> Wanting a woman that will honor their wedding vows is apparently a huge red flag of mine.


If you read the wedding vows and take them literally, almost no one will honor them.


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## Corgi Mum (10 mo ago)

Divinely Favored said:


> Had a co-worker that was also, her son and hubby were not. They hunted and she cooked the deer and other meat for family, but would not eat it herself. Greatly respected her for that.


I won't cook it for the SO but he enjoys cooking way more than I do anyway.... and you _really_ don't want a non-meat-eater cooking your meat (I think everything should be very very well done).  

But of course when the dog had pancreatitis, I cheerfully cooked meat for her.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Young at Heart said:


> The discussion is now getting interesting. Some guys are saying they feel like the ladies they dated were trying to jump their bones as soon as possible and they tried to hang out for the 3 date rule. Other folks are saying that some are players for dating multiple people or serial dating in quick succession.
> 
> I think we are each different and that is what makes life interesting.
> 
> ...


👍👍👍👍👍


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