# DDay +X - What Now?



## TallLean (Jan 8, 2013)

I've browsed through this forum and read some truly terrible stories of infidelity and its effects. Mine is probably less dramatic than some, but still hurts like hell at the moment and I am looking for advice on how to approach things:

My wife and I have been together 14 years and have a 3.5 year-old son and a 3 month old son. She comes from another country, so we decided to spend Christmas there this year. Which is where DDay occurred (I actually realised on Christmas day but only confronted on Boxing Day).

I basically found out that she had been having an EA plus some PA attributes (minimum kissing, maybe a full blown PA). She initially admitted to a single brief kiss, but when confronted with more damning evidence admitted to kissing this guy twice. Once a year ago and once for the time I found out (about 3 weeks ago).

I immediately wanted to return home (damn the cost) but she managed to convince me (blackmail me regarding kids feelings) that I should stick it out in the other Country with no friends or family about. I managed another 2 days, but realised that i needed space - and also that I could access her email from home 

Home I went and left her with the kids and her family (who she didn't want to tell the truth - I allowed her to lie and just say that we've had a big argument, though I think they might suspect).

She had deleted all her relevant emails when I got back, but thankfully hotmail has a "recover deleted items" feature which i used. The emails for the most part seemed to tally with her story with some minor differences. She claimed that he pursued her repeatedly after the 1st kiss (45 min kiss apparently) and she always said "no". She did say yes, but he didn't respond then. One particularly alarming email I found was in my own inbox where 7 days after the "1st kiss" she said (regarding her period):



> It has arrived! Was never happier to see some blood
> 
> You don’t have a clue how I have been feeling, in both mind and body. I will be happy to get it out of my system!


Am I being paranoid on that one? Do women talk like this? I don't remember a conversation like this with her before...

The relationship turned into one full of "innocent" texts. I have an email where she discussed how much of a buzz she gets from waiting for them. The addiction had started.

The pregnancy of our 2nd child (who was conceived just after that "1st kiss" - don't think I haven't noticed that) seemed to quell things for a while though he would get in touch on Valentines day and birthdays. After the child was born, I realise she obviously wanted to ramp things up and she started getting in contact again. When this culminated in the "2nd kiss" she actually told me it was him that pulled away as if this made it better. Weird.

The confrontation was typical I guess. Accusations, lied responses, finally tears and a "full account". Still though, she immediately turned the tables on me when confronted and said that she wasn't sure about the relationship either (which felt like a power play at the time - not sure).

I was totally destroyed for a week. I have never felt emotions like it. I was sending angry texts and questions, etc. for 2 days and then started looking on sites like this which really helped. Since then I have talked to an IC which has helped enormously and I have my thoughts and feelings straight(ish). I am also looking at myself and how I can improve myself. I have plans to start some courses and pick up old hobbies, etc.

I feel this is out of character for her and she has apologised profusely. I do still have feelings for her and want to reconcile. BUT - I don't want this to happen again. I'm really confused about how to approach the while thing when she returns from the holiday tomorrow.

A- Should I "soft-separate" (stay in house but sleep in another room) until she fully commits to a reconciliation including no contact with OM.

B- Should I show her love and affection whilst being firm that she must never see him again and try to work through our problems.

C- Hard-separate. Move out.

my inclination is B, but my head tells me A. 

I think just writing it out has helped me.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

I would for starters get the second child DNA tested because of the timing. She has to go nc or you file for divorce and show her you are not a doormat.


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## Shadow_Nirvana (Jan 1, 2013)

I think, first of all, DNA tests should be in order.

Edit: That previous poster beat me to it.

And you should seriously consider exposing. Exposing to family, friends and work is highly recommended.


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## TallLean (Jan 8, 2013)

tom67 said:


> I would for starters get the second child DNA tested because of the timing.


Thanks Tom,

Yes, this is going to happen for sure. She did not react badly to it (but I think it actually burst the bubble a bit that these are the kinds of implications from something like this) and agreed, so I think (hope!) I'm in the clear on that score. that won't stop me doing the test of course.

The problem with the non-contact thing is that she's currently "unsure" about whether we get back together or not. She did recently text to say she wanted to try, but then said she might change her mind. 

Problem with this for me is that it feels like a power play. I was angry and had every right, but she took the wind out of my sails with that. On the other side, people say that women often check out of a relationship before the affair. So maybe it's just true.:scratchhead:


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## TallLean (Jan 8, 2013)

Shadow_Nirvana said:


> And you should seriously consider exposing. Exposing to family, friends and work is highly recommended.


Yeah, this feels bad to me. My family would get real mad and never forgive her. If we reconcile that would make things a real pain in the butt.

I do have OM's phone number and address and I know he's in a long term relationship with a girl (who lives there). When I mentioned I would contact her my W went ballistic and threw the really heavy armoury at me (threatening to take kids away to the other country).

TBH, I was saying it more to see her reaction and if she was still really into him. I definitely got my answer.


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## mahike (Aug 16, 2011)

TallLean said:


> Yeah, this feels bad to me. My family would get real mad and never forgive her. If we reconcile that would make things a real pain in the butt.
> 
> I do have OM's phone number and address and I know he's in a long term relationship with a girl (who lives there). When I mentioned I would contact her my W went ballistic and threw the really heavy armoury at me (threatening to take kids away to the other country).
> 
> TBH, I was saying it more to see her reaction and if she was still really into him. I definitely got my answer.


Pay attention. she more worried about him then you. The A is still on buddy. Maybe cooled off a little but still going. Kick her butt out, get tested for STD's, DNA test the kid and expose to everyone.

Then see what happends. Do not take the high road exposure is the only thing that really kills an A


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## LetDownNTX (Oct 4, 2012)

TallLean said:


> Thanks Tom,
> 
> Yes, this is going to happen for sure. She did not react badly to it (but I think it actually burst the bubble a bit that these are the kinds of implications from something like this) and agreed, so I think (hope!) I'm in the clear on that score. that won't stop me doing the test of course.
> 
> ...



Dont take her words (she will try), take her actions. Make her prove to you with her actions that she is trying, not that she is going to try. I wouldnt even let her think that I want to be with her until she can start proving herself to you. Sorry you found yourself here!


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## Shadow_Nirvana (Jan 1, 2013)

TallLean said:


> Yeah, this feels bad to me. My family would get real mad and never forgive her. If we reconcile that would make things a real pain in the butt.
> 
> I do have OM's phone number and address and I know he's in a long term relationship with a girl (who lives there). When I mentioned I would contact her my W went ballistic and threw the really heavy armoury at me (threatening to take kids away to the other country).
> 
> TBH, I was saying it more to see her reaction and if she was still really into him. I definitely got my answer.


Well, consider telling your family if you don't R. You will need some serious support and they will be the one providing that.

And hell yeah, this is about power play. You have to show her, as a man, you are not to be focked with. Expose to the OM's girl friend and he will throw your wife under the bus in three seconds. And get some legal advice about the kids ,too. Don't be pushed around by this woman.

Exposure is the fastest way to kill an affair. Affairs grow in the dark, they should never be rugswept and exposure brings them to the light of day and shows its real side: the sleaze and deception.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Exposure to the other man's girlfriend is the only shot you have in breaking off this affair, do it now!


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## TallLean (Jan 8, 2013)

tom67 said:


> Exposure to the other man's girlfriend is the only shot you have in breaking off this affair, do it now!


Must admit this is something I've had spinning round in my head. It feels morally right, but I was afraid I was motivated for the wrong reasons and I didn't want to act right at the beginning whilst my head was swimming.

But I'm more convinced now. I believe I have her work number and will call tomorrow to tell her. If it's wrong I've got her address.

God, i hate this situation. Thanks to everyone for their help.


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## 3putt (Dec 3, 2012)

TallLean said:


> *I believe I have her work number and will call tomorrow to tell her.* If it's wrong I've got her address.


What's wrong with right now? 

Never put off 'til tomorrow.......


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## Wanting1 (Apr 26, 2012)

Put the kids passports somewhere she can't access. NOT your house!!


*Quote:
It has arrived! Was never happier to see some blood

You don’t have a clue how I have been feeling, in both mind and body. I will be happy to get it out of my system!*

I had a conversation like this one time. With the man I was concerned had gotten me pregnant. They shared way more than a kiss, if she was concerned that she would be missing a period.


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## totallyunexpected (Nov 21, 2012)

Lots of things on my mind. First of all, I am so sorry you are dealing with this, TallLean. It's doubly painful that she is not remorseful.

My observations:

1. I would say with 99% confidence that she and the OM had sex. The period comment refers to her being happy that she is not pregnant. Because she sent it to him, she is referring to their intercourse. There is no other interpretation other than one colored by your wishes for it to not be so.

2. She is not admitting everything, she is wavering, she is not feeling remorseful. She is probably in the "fog". Read the newbie links for this info. Have you located the newbie links?

3. Expose to the OW. This is one of two chances you have for her to reverse course. The OM may throw her under the bus, although that is more likely if the OM is married.

4. Prepare for the possibility of divorce. She needs to face the credible threat of divorce. You need to turn stone cold. Do not give her all your love and say "please don't make me divorce you". That gives her power. Tell her that she comes clean with EVERYTHING and goes NO CONTACT with other guy and focuses on your marriage or you will file for divorce. If she acts defensively, blame-shifts, or says "Fine", then have the divorce papers served to her. (You can always cancel this.) This is the most useful tool to shock her out of the fog and her fantasy land.

5. I concur with the poster who said to find the kids' passports and hide them. Preferably, have them hidden at another location (not home or your office.) Do you have a trusted family member to store them with. You could hide them in another package if you don't want to expose to your family just yet.

6. You deserve better. You deserve better. Hang in there. Keep sharing your story here and reading the input from others. Look at other similar cases to identify the patterns of cheaters. I'm routing for you. Be strong and remember you are ABOVE your wife on this one. Your kids need you to be a self-respecting man and not bow down and accept a life of infidelity.


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## keko (Mar 21, 2012)

Expose to everyone family/friend involved.
Get tested for STDs.
Have the kids paternity tested.

Only then should you even consider R. But she's the one that should be on your doorstep begging for your forgiveness not the other way around.


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

Sorry but I too believe she's had sex with the guy

Tell the OMs girlfriend so she can decide what she wants to do. Wouldn't you want to know? BTW, Do Not tell her when you're going to do this. I'm willing to bet she's already warned the OM and he's busy spinning a tale to his GF about this crazy jealous husband guy that he has a "friendship" with his wife.

If you have any copies of the emails, give them to the GF so she knows you're not nuts

She sounds as if she has also pursued him so she's lying on this point too

Her continued attempts to control and bully you by holding the kids over your head should be a clear indicator of her guilt in all of this and also illustrates how far the affair actually went

Good luck


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## kenmoore14217 (Apr 8, 2010)

This would be a major concern to me: 

W went ballistic and threw the really heavy armoury at me (threatening to take kids away to the other country).

I would contact any and all legal sources available to make sure this "threat" never materialized!!


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## DavidWYoung (Feb 3, 2012)

This was WAY more than some kissing! Check both babys DNA. Serve her with DIVORCE papers and tell her to talk to your lawyer. You want a POWER PLAY, I will give you A POWER PLAY STBXW!


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## Shadow_Nirvana (Jan 1, 2013)

Indeed guy, any R that's worth some value has to be on the BS's terms. She can't call the shots, she doesn't get to tell you what you need to let go, what you need to know, who you can't tell etc. 

Otherwise, it will be either a false R or your marriage will continue without the necessary healing, you will be looking at another affair down the line.

If you think she won't let you call the shots or you don't even want to, you might as well divorce now, never even look back and save yourself from the pain.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Wanting a Strong Marriage said:


> Put the kids passports somewhere she can't access. NOT your house!!


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

I can't emphasize this enough. Do this, as well as see a lawyer immediately. I beleive there may be papers you can file with the government to put your children on a list that prevents them from leaving the country without your express permission. Check into that ASAP.

She has had an affair, threatened to take the kids, and is not sure she wants the marriage to continue. If things get uncomfortable for her, don't assume that she would never up and leave with the kids. You don't know her anymore and can't assume that you know what she will do.


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## LetDownNTX (Oct 4, 2012)

totallyunexpected said:


> My observations:
> 
> 1. I would say with 99% confidence that she and the OM had sex. The period comment refers to her being happy that she is not pregnant. Because she sent it to him, she is referring to their intercourse. There is no other interpretation other than one colored by your wishes for it to not be so.


Unless I read it wrong I think that he said that was in his OWN inbox, not the OM, or not to the OM. But my thinking on that is that she might have meant to send it to him!


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## moxy (Apr 2, 2012)

Paternity tests are a good idea, especially for your youngest. For your sake, I hope nothing us amiss.

45 minutes of kissing followed by a relieved email about menstrual blood? You know better. She had sex with him and then a pregnancy scare.

Contact a year ago, no clue about contact, then contact again 3 weeks ago? Chances are that the affair has been going on all this time and has been carefully kept underground with lies. 

Check your phone records and all her accounts. Now that youve confronted, getting info will be hard to do, but look through credit cards, phone records, emails, Facebook, etc.


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## TallLean (Jan 8, 2013)

LetDownNTX said:


> Unless I read it wrong I think that he said that was in his OWN inbox, not the OM, or not to the OM. But my thinking on that is that she might have meant to send it to him!


Sorry for the delay in responding, but. Yes it was in my inbox in a long chain of emails so unlikely to be a mistake. She also sent a similar one to her girlfriends.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TallLean (Jan 8, 2013)

moxy said:


> Paternity tests are a good idea, especially for your youngest. For your sake, I hope nothing us amiss.
> 
> 45 minutes of kissing followed by a relieved email about menstrual blood? You know better. She had sex with him and then a pregnancy scare.
> 
> ...


I've checked all i can except mobile phone records which i cannot get to. She deleted a load of stuff on her iphone in other country. But i believe i can recover them with software. Which i will do. Thank you all for the advice even though it's not what i want to hear. The kids situation bothers me greatly although she really has no life out there and few friends.

The period thing cuts deep. As i think about it the friends she was mailing have dropped her since. Perhaps they disapproved...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

TallLean said:


> Sorry for the delay in responding, but. Yes it was in my inbox in a long chain of emails so unlikely to be a mistake. She also sent a similar one to her girlfriends.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I believe she intended it for the OM. To tell him she wasn't pregnant. Unless she had told you she might be pregnant. How was your sex life then?

Contact the friends she sent the email to and ask them if they knew she was having an affair? Use the OM's name and act like you know all about it.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

iPhone Backup Extractor for Windows and Mac


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## moxy (Apr 2, 2012)

chapparal said:


> Contact the friends she sent the email to and ask them if they knew she was having an affair? Use the OM's name and act like you know all about it.


This is a good idea. If they've dropped her as a friend, they're less likely to protect her secrets. Also, they may know a lot that you don't.


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## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

Her violent outburst when you threatened to tell OMs GF about them is very revealing. Your wife cares more about HIM than she does you and your family.

All things considered I would DNA test both kids, expose him to his GF and both families, put the kid's passports in a safety deposit box at a bank, talk to an attorney and prep for divorce.

The thing with her OM has been going on for a long time and the concept of adults having a 45 minute make out session with nothing but kissing involved is a little hard to swallow.

Sorry, but your wife had a long term EA that turned PA. Even if it was "just" kissing, it is still a PA.

Maybe you can work it out, maybe you can't. One thing for sure is that if OM is still in her heart - you are not.


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## TallLean (Jan 8, 2013)

chapparal said:


> I believe she intended it for the OM. To tell him she wasn't pregnant. Unless she had told you she might be pregnant. How was your sex life then?
> 
> Contact the friends she sent the email to and ask them if they knew she was having an affair? Use the OM's name and act like you know all about it.


Ok, I've dug further into her emails and found something which seems to point that she wasn't worried about pregnancy (or at least didn't want to tell this friend). The sad face is because we were trying for (and succeeded in some way at least) another baby at the time I guess.




> FROM WIFE
> 
> def not up the duff
> 
> ...


but of course, this doesn't mean she wasn't worried about being pregnant. Arrgghh, I so want it not to be so.

Regarding two adults just kissing for 45 mins, Same thing occurred to me :-( She swore blind that he never touched her anywhere else in any way. She likes to lie by omission, so I do wonder where her hands were...


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## TallLean (Jan 8, 2013)

So my current plan of action is:

1. Contact OMW and expose affair. I will also expose to some close friends.
2. Declare the only way she can win me back is through no contact.
3. Keep our relationship cordial, but no affection, etc unless she goes no contact.
4. Hide passports and get legal advice. (I've done some research on this and it doesn't look good tbh, but it's best to be informed)
5. Be with kids as much as possible.
6. Work on myself. I want to be a better person through this experience.

Thanks again.
tl


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## Shadow_Nirvana (Jan 1, 2013)

Bravo my friend. But do not forget about the paternity testing. 

And come here, when the fight of your life begins, the guys here will give you the best advice there is.


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## TallLean (Jan 8, 2013)

Shadow_Nirvana said:


> Bravo my friend. But do not forget about the paternity testing.
> 
> And come here, when the fight of your life begins, the guys here will give you the best advice there is.


Thanks - won't forget about that one and will be doing both boys as suggested by others. Let's see how I face up to it. Tomorrow it begins in earnest.


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## Count of Monte Cristo (Mar 21, 2012)

Are the kids back in the country?

If not, you might want to wait, get their passports, and then work your plan of attack.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Are you in the United States?


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## TallLean (Jan 8, 2013)

Count of Monte Cristo said:


> Are the kids back in the country?
> 
> If not, you might want to wait, get their passports, and then work your plan of attack.


No, they come back tomorrow. I will be picking them (including W) up from the airport and will put the passports "away". I've always looked after these things so it won't look strange.

Once the kids are in bed she will find out about the exposure to the OM's gf I will do that morning. Then we talk...

At least that's the plan....Somehow I can see myself apologising amongst all this and want to make sure i don't!


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## TallLean (Jan 8, 2013)

chapparal said:


> Are you in the United States?


No, the UK. She's from mainland Europe.


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## Count of Monte Cristo (Mar 21, 2012)

TallLean said:


> No, the UK. She's from mainland Europe.


You'll have to be extra vigilant in keeping her from taking your kids. You do live in the United States of Europe after all, which makes traveling between countries a lot easier than if you lived in the US.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

TallLean said:


> No, they come back tomorrow. I will be picking them (including W) up from the airport and will put the passports "away". I've always looked after these things so it won't look strange.
> 
> Once the kids are in bed she will find out about the exposure to the OM's gf I will do that morning. Then we talk...
> 
> At least that's the plan....Somehow I can see myself apologising amongst all this and want to make sure i don't!


Do not let her know you are going to expose to the OMW. Also, do not tell her after you expose. If she comes trashing you after you do it, you will know he has contacted her. Can you monitor thier communication now. It would be great to know what he really tells her. Usually, the OM will throw them under the bus to save their marriage. 

Be prepared for anything she might say/do. In this country it is wise to have a VAR on you to protect yourself from being arrested if she tries to say you are abusive. 

Is the OM where she has been visiting? How hard is it for them to see each other? How far from you does he live?


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## TallLean (Jan 8, 2013)

chapparal said:


> Do not let her know you are going to expose to the OMW. Also, do not tell her after you expose. If she comes trashing you after you do it, you will know he has contacted her. Can you monitor thier communication now. It would be great to know what he really tells her. Usually, the OM will throw them under the bus to save their marriage.
> 
> Be prepared for anything she might say/do. In this country it is wise to have a VAR on you to protect yourself from being arrested if she tries to say you are abusive.
> 
> Is the OM where she has been visiting? How hard is it for them to see each other? How far from you does he live?


thank you - great advice about not letting her know that I've exposed her. 

OM lives in Uk about 2 miles away. Though they were ex-collegues so typically meetings happened in evenings and after work. When she was pregnant this became harder . She actually told me she was meeting him a couple of evenings. Then she's report that she didn't enjoy it - it was one of my red flags.

I have access to her email, but she hasn't used it to contact anyone about this subject. So I think she's using other forms of communication. But she's not terribly tech-savvy and I am waiting to look at the phone statement to see all texts, etc (I retrieved his number from her phone), .... I do have access to FaceBook account too. Nothing here either.

No idea what a VAR is and I wish I didn't have to find out, but will google it. Thanks.


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## Count of Monte Cristo (Mar 21, 2012)

VAR = Voice Activated Recorder


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## mahike (Aug 16, 2011)

I would also get a keylogger on the computer. She most likely has another email account. My wife had four of them.


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## TallLean (Jan 8, 2013)

chapparal said:


> Do not let her know you are going to expose to the OMW


Thank you so much for this advice. I just exposed the affair to the OM gf. I had to contact her through linkedin and first made a contact message to make sure she was who I thought she was. She confirmed she was the OM gf and I started to type the expose. Whilst doing this I got 2 phone calls and a text from my W telling me not to do it. 

I picked up the phone after pressing send. W claimed she had just ended in with OM and was going to give it a go with me.

She is quite obviously in contact with him.

Another phone call. She was going to try with me, but now I've been malicious she doesn't think she can. I said that if her resolve was broken that easily then it would never have worked.

She then asked me to add to the message to OM gf that the last kiss was broken off by him. I almost fell for this (it was true and in their text messages) but then refused. If she wants to defend him, she can do it herself.

I am bloody shaking man. Doesn't feel great tbh.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

TallLean said:


> Thank you so much for this advice. I just exposed the affair to the OM gf. I had to contact her through linkedin and first made a contact message to make sure she was who she said she was. She confirmed she was the OM gf and I started to type the expose. Whilst doing this I got 2 phone calls and a text from my W telling me not to do it.
> 
> I picked up the phone after pressing send. W claimed she had just ended in with OM and was going to give it a go with me.
> 
> ...


Be calm, actually I'm surprised none of us tol;d you she would say that. They almost always do.

What did the OM's wife say?

I'm going to post something that may help. Give her time to settle down. If she repeats the remark about not gin=ving it a go again, tell her cheaters that were going to just try to hide it better always say thataccording to your research.

*Originally Posted by marduk 
I happened to be thinking today about the past year of my marriage. Everyone on these forums were so instrumental in my being in the great place I am today I thought I would post a note about where I was, where I am, and what I’ve learned.

A year ago my marriage was a mess. After 3 kids my stay at home wife spontaneously decided to start going out with her girlfriends again, including a “girls trip” to Vegas. She started a crazy fitness routine, including marathon running and triathalons. She started leaving me at home with the kids 2-3 evenings a week. A rough summer. I was insecure, controlling, alone, and afraid.

Thanks in part to the folks on this forum, life is much better now. My wife only goes out with her friends maybe once a month, and the last time she did, she came home early, threw her arms around me, and told me she’s so happy she gets to come home to me. She goes to the gym maybe once or twice a week for an hour or so in the early evening. When she does leave on races out of town the whole family will go on a camping trip together so we can be there for her at the finish line. The stress level in the house is much lower, and our happiness and respect for each other is much higher. Are things perfect? No – we still fight, have conflict, and disagree. But they’re shorter-lived, not has hostile, and just plain don’t seem to hurt so much. What’s changed? Me. Here’s what I learned:

1. Let her go. You can fight, hold her back, be controlling… and you’ll just look petty, insecure, and weak. Be cool, act secure, give her a kiss and say “have fun.” If she’s going to cheat or leave, she’s going to cheat or leave. It’s better if it happens sooner rather than later in my book. A marriage is a choice, a decision that’s made one day at a time. You’re in or out. This was really, really hard. But I've learned that nothing lasts forever, life is change. We can grow together or apart. I can't force her to decide to want to be with me.

2. Set boundaries, and then stick to them. I found in my marriage that it wasn’t ok to say “I don’t want you to do that” but it was ok to say “would you be ok with me doing that?” And then hold her to it. 9 times out of 10 the behaviour would go away on its own if I stuck to it. For example: if it was ok for her to be gone 2-3 nights a week so would I. After a couple of weeks she was dying to sit on the couch and watch a movie after we spent the evening with the kids together. Conversely, if it's within your boundaries, be cool with it. I started to let her off the hook for minor annoyances a lot more which cooled the stress levels.

3. Be ok with losing her. Seriously. After one of our last bad fights before things got better, I reconciled myself to thinking this might be it. The end of our marriage and little family. I thought out how things would be living on my own, sharing custody of the kids, etc. And as tough as it would be, made peace with it. It wouldn’t kill me, it wouldn’t kill my kids. Very negative experience and one I’d like to avoid at all costs, but we would survive. This changed my attitude and clinginess significantly… and to be blunt scared the hell out of my wife. Just last month she told me “I think you’d be more ok without me than I’d be without you.” And for our marriage, that balance of neediness works. I think it’s an alpha male thing, not sure but it seems to work.

4. Do my own thing. I’m out at least once or twice a week doing martial arts, yoga, weights, cross-fit, trail running, hanging with buddies… you name it. Gives me perspective and gives my wife time to miss me. And I’m in kick ass shape compared to last year, and now instead of me worrying about my wife getting hit on I’m having to deal with having her be upset because other women check me out when we go out. I’m going on a weekend martial arts training camp… and my wife couldn’t say a word after going to Vegas last year. Another thing: I make sure I either do something fun with the kids when she goes out (she’ll have to decide if it’s more important to miss out on family fun or friend fun) or I have fun while she’s out. Even something stupid like a scotch and cigar in the back yard when the kids go to bed so I can kick back and listen to the complete lack of complaining about the cigar stink. Ahh…

5. Be a father to our children. Not just “quality” time but real time. Conversations, walks in the park, helping with homework, taking them to soccer, etc. all seemed to help big time. Not just with my wife, but with all of us. And I also found my “father voice,” the voice of discipline and reason in the family. My kids listen to me a lot more, not in fear, but they know they have to listen. Now my wife comes to me when the kids don’t listen to her, not the other way around.

6. Get some buddies. Guys need close guy friends to do guy stuff. Complain about their wives. Be stupid and macho. Whatever that means to you, it worked wonders for me.

7. Fight different. Walk away rather than blow up. Mean what you say and stand up to it. For example, if I threaten that if she keeps doing x that means I'll do y, then I bloody well do y if she does x. This had two effects: I thought about what I said more, and so did my wife. I think my wife has a need to be able to hold me at my word, even if that’s a bad thing. Not sure why. Using few words in a fight, slowly and quietly while looking her directly in the eye seems to also work. Once it’s said, don’t repeat it. It is what it is.

8. Act from a place of strength. I don’t think my wife wants a weakling. She may say that she’ll want me to be more intimate, vulnerable, etc… I think that’s actually BS. Or at least that she doesn’t mean weak or actually vulnerable. If you have flaws or weaknesses either accept it and move on or fix it. I don’t let my wife try to fix my flaws any more. If she brings something up and tries to fix it I’ll ask her to mind her own business (gently). Not a behaviour that impacts her, those I’ll always try to listen to her on. But I don't let her judge me or try to live up to her expectations any more. I define myself, I don't let her do that for me.

9. Be decisive. Again I think this is an alpha male thing. Make plans. I planned a few date nights, and didn’t ask what she wanted to do. Instead I planned stuff I thought might be fun for us, and asked if she was having a good time. She was, especially if it was stuff she didn’t normally like to do (one time we went to a tattoo expo – I have one small tattoo and she has none – but got us out of our element and we had a blast!) Now if she asks me “what do you want to do” I answer with what I want. Works in bed too – I just made sure she felt comfortable in saying “no.” Don’t bully, be decisive and adaptable.

10. Know what I want from life. This is hard in today’s world. I had to pull my head out of my ass and figure out that I don’t want to sit on the couch every night and watch TV. So now I don’t. At least not every night.

11. Do more macho stuff. Fix something around the house. Dig a big hole in the back yard and plant a tree. Fixing her car, for example, seemed to turn a light bulb on in my wife’s head that reminded me that I’m a man and not one of her girlfriends.

So that’s my list. Hope it helps some of the guys out there. Your mileage may vary, and my marriage may still fail, but I’m in a much better spot in the past year than I have been in a long, long time.

Thanks for everything!*


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

We can see the phone records on line. If you can check now you can see how much they are talking texting about the exposure. 

So the OM's wife told him you were communicating with her? Or did he intercept the message. How did he find out that quick and let your wife know. You need to talk to her in person or at least on the phone to be sure you really got her the message. He found out before you even got the message off?

We see waywards intercepting the exposure messages often.


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## TallLean (Jan 8, 2013)

chapparal said:


> Be calm, actually I'm surprised none of us tol;d you she would say that. They almost always do.
> 
> What did the OM's wife say?


She basically said thanks for the info. OM has explained it to her and it was only those 2 kisses and some flirty texts and she's happy with that.

weird.


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## TallLean (Jan 8, 2013)

chapparal said:


> So the OM's wife told him you were communicating with her? Or did he intercept the message. How did he find out that quick and let your wife know. You need to talk to her in person or at least on the phone to be sure you really got her the message. He found out before you even got the message off?
> 
> We see waywards intercepting the exposure messages often.


i sent one msg to confirm it was her and that i was going to to tell her something personal.

then phone calls.

Then i sent the actual message.

I can see your point though. How to progress? Send another msg asking her to call me?


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## 3putt (Dec 3, 2012)

TallLean said:


> Thank you so much for this advice. I just exposed the affair to the OM gf. I had to contact her through linkedin and first made a contact message to make sure she was who I thought she was. She confirmed she was the OM gf and I started to type the expose. Whilst doing this I got 2 phone calls and a text from my W telling me not to do it.
> 
> I picked up the phone after pressing send. W claimed she had just ended in with OM and was going to give it a go with me.
> 
> ...


Dude, calm down. This is typical and predictable. You're gonna get all those statements like "I was gonna work it out but not now!!" and "Why did you have to hurt his BGF like this? She didn't deserve this!". And it's gonna get worse...or at least you hope it does. If it doesn't, then you have a problem. If she gets madder, then freakin' awesome because that means you have done considerable damage to the affair. REMEMBER, the madder, the better. You *WANT* Mad!!!!!!

If her head starts to spin and she starts spewing projectile vomit then you'll know you hit a walk off grand slam.

Keep your foot on the pedal and don't let off until you're out of gas.

Nice going!


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

TallLean said:


> She was going to try with me, but now I've been malicious she doesn't think she can. I said that if her resolve was broken that easily then it would never have worked.


 Tell your wife that she does not understand the meaning of the word "malicious". Telling about the cheating is truthful, the OM cheating with your wife is malicious. Tell her that truthfully the other man can rot in hell for all you care. Tell her that by taking this stand she has shown her true colors in having his back instead of yours.


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## 3putt (Dec 3, 2012)

One more thing. I would give your WW's phone number to the GF and encourage her to call your WW and rip her a new one for interfering in her relationship. No telling if it will help or if she'll even do it, but you have nothing to lose by trying...and possibly something to gain if she does.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Obviously the OM was seeing your messages to the gf and was talking to your wife as you did it.

You were being played big time by her. There was no breaking it off or choosing you. Ask yourself, if it was just akiss why is she do loyal to him? 

You should follow up agsint with the gf, especially share that you believe they have sex as you know your wife was worried about getting her period.


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

Shaggy said:


> Obviously the OM was seeing your messages to the gf and was talking to your wife as you did it.
> 
> You were being played big time by her. There was no breaking it off or choosing you. Ask yourself, if it was just akiss why is she do loyal to him?
> 
> You should follow up agsint with the gf, especially share that you believe they have sex as you know your wife was worried about getting her period.


This all seems pretty obvious to me. If it doesn't to you, original poster, then you've got to start questioning your grip on reality. You are going to need to be able to evaluate what is really going on if you want to save your marriage.

When your wife comes home, you get her alone without the kids and tell her you love her and want to reconcile, but she has to end it with other man and tell you the truth. She has to go no contact with him and let you verify it by giving passwords and access to her accounts communication devices. Of course, there's always ways to hide it.

I recommend getting a few voice-activated recorders - keep one on you so you can record your conversation with her and capture any threats about taking your children or making false accusations against you; and put one under the front seat of her car with heavy duty velcro so you can monitor her communications with the other man.

If she doesn't want to reconcile, then file for divorce and expose the affair to your and her family and friends.


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

TallLean said:


> She basically said thanks for the info. OM has explained it to her and it was only those 2 kisses and some flirty texts and she's happy with that.
> 
> weird.


Are you sure you were talking to the OMW and not to the OM himself? (who apparently is able to access his wife's account).

Maybe it was him pretending to be his wife.

What does "she's happy with that" mean?
That the proof is enough to divorce him or that she doesn't care what they did and she'll keep him anyway?


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## TallLean (Jan 8, 2013)

lovelygirl said:


> Are you sure you were talking to the OMW and not to the OM himself? (who apparently is able to access his wife's account).
> 
> Maybe it was him pretending to be his wife.
> 
> ...


Sorry, I wasn't very clear. I'm pretty sure it was her as she also sent a text to my mobile and this was from her work phone (according to google) the OM wouldn't have bothered giving me this extra bit of information I believe.

her reply was:




> I have discussed this with OM. It seems that the two incidents you
> mention are the limit to anything between them and he has talked to me
> about exactly what happened - I would be very surprised to find out
> anything more than some pointlessly flirty text messages. I will leave
> ...


It does make me feel like I'm blowing the situation up larger than it needs to be. I don't regret the exposure, but can't help feeling that some of the more aggressive tactics people are talking about might make things worse rather than better. AFAICS in her emails, they really didn't contact each other much and the fact she was a stay-at-home mum with a toddler and being pregnant may have been large factors in this. But I don't feel that she is deep in the 'fog', more that she is desperately embarrassed and confused about the whole thing. It doesn't tally with who she thinks she is. The threats she spewed are the way we argue, she always goes nuclear with the most effective thing she can think of. Not nice and something we would need to address if we reconcile.

My current thoughts are that she DIDN'T have sex with him. She is not a great liar and I believed her until I reread the period email. The timing of the email is terrible, but she did used to get bad periods and complain about them so it's not completely out of character. I don't want to jump to a conclusion EITHER way on this. So far I've been treating it as if she had sex with him and I don't believe that they did. The kiss was after an office do in a doorway. They would have to go to a hotel or something to do it. She's really not the type for a street knee-trembler. I'm sure you'll tell me this is wishful thinking, but it's what feels right in my gut.

I think I am going to take a soft but firm approach instead of keyloggers, etc. I will tell her that I want to reunite but with the caveat of no contact and that we do so through relationship counselling. I want her to fall back in love with me and we reunite for that reason - not because I've tricked her into it. I won't ask for access to her accounts as I already have that and it might just send it underground. If she falls back into the affair I have a greater chance of catching it.


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## PreRaphaelite (Dec 15, 2012)

"I have discussed this with OM. It seems that the two incidents you 
mention are the limit to anything between them and he has talked to me 
about exactly what happened - I would be very surprised to find out 
anything more than some pointlessly flirty text messages. I will leave 
between you and your wife to discuss it.

At this point I am happy to accept what he has told me, so thank you for 
the offer, but I won't see the texts/emails you refer to. If I change my 
mind in the future, tho, I hope you won't mind if I come back to you."

This is the response of a BS in denial. She believes what her WS says, takes him at his word and doesn't want to pursue it any further?? Come on.

I agree that this message does sound very suspicious to me, as if it wasn't written by her but by the man that your wife has been having an affair with. It's too neat, too easy.

Regarding your "soft approach": you can't tell her to fall back in love with you. If she sitting on the fence--and it sounds like she is--there is nothing you can do but end the marriage.

She has had a relationship with this guy for how long? And you want to believe her story that they only kissed. This is nonsense. The problem is, you think you know her when you say that she's not a good liar, but that's your illusion. You may not know her nearly as much as you think. When people get into an affair they change, radically. You are protecting yourself with false assurances and need to realize that this is what you are doing.


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## TallLean (Jan 8, 2013)

PreRaphaelite said:


> This is the response of a BS in denial. She believes what her WS says, takes him at his word and doesn't want to pursue it any further?? Come on.
> 
> I agree that this message does sound very suspicious to me, as if it wasn't written by her but by the man that your wife has been having an affair with. It's too neat, too easy.


It's true, either it's her in denial or it's the OM. I cannot tell. The contact from my W shows that he was aware of the contact immediately which is very suspicious. But the phone number supplied is definitely hers and I have found it listed on her company website (though not under her name - just as a general number). I have now replied to the text and message within work hours to ensure it is her getting the responses. If I hear no more I can only assume it really was her.



> Regarding your "soft approach": you can't tell her to fall back in love with you. If she sitting on the fence--and it sounds like she is--there is nothing you can do but end the marriage.
> 
> She has had a relationship with this guy for how long? And you want to believe her story that they only kissed. This is nonsense. The problem is, you think you know her when you say that she's not a good liar, but that's your illusion. You may not know her nearly as much as you think. When people get into an affair they change, radically. You are protecting yourself with false assurances and need to realize that this is what you are doing.


My view is that we are not together right now. we are separated. I have told her that I'm willing to give it another shot, but I won't wait forever. If we do, I hope she falls back in love with me (and me with her). She had said that she wanted to reconcile previously but was still confused so it's possible that she does want to Reconcile. Then this exposure has obviously angered her so she said that it is all off. But this was anger speaking. We meet face-to-face today and can have it out properly. 

As for the just kissing, don't forget that she was pregnant almost from the 1st kiss onwards (hence the paternity tests). Then she had a new born and I think this put a real dampener on things. The 2nd kiss was them trying to rekindle things as family life was settling again. Without the pregnancy and birth I believe it would have escalated further and faster.

I just remembered another email conversation where she was discussing with a girl friend if she should tell OM that she was pregnant or just let him find out. Finally she decided it would be best coming from her and he responded with "Congratulations, that's fantastic news". Not the mark of a worried man.

This doesn't mean I'm shutting my mind to the sex possibilities, just that the story she has told me seems to hold water - even with unadulterated access to her email and FB - and I am wary of my paranoia building every thing she says or does into something more than it actually is. That said, I will be confronting her with the period email this evening to gauge her reaction and will keep vigilant.

Reading through this forum, I can see that I'm not the first to think like this and get stung badly. But the biggest most popular threads are the ones with the most heartache and perhaps this skews the mind a little. Am i being rational or rationalising? I'm too close to tell :-( 

Apologies for the lengthy posts...


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## Rags (Aug 2, 2010)

Rationality is not always a strong feature in posts on CWI - although there are the odd surprises.

Different cultures have different views on infidelity and honesty as well, so there's no guarantee that a European woman expects you to feel quite the way you do. (We are not Europeans, here in the UK ... </soapbox>!)

Good luck.


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

TallLean said:


> It does make me feel like I'm blowing the situation up larger than it needs to be. I don't regret the exposure, but can't help feeling that some of the more aggressive tactics people are talking about might make things worse rather than better. AFAICS in her emails, they really didn't contact each other


No, you are not making it any larger than it needs to be. You just happen to be around people (including the OMW) *who are fine with poor boundaries* in a marriage and won't make a big deal out of cheating. The problem is them, not you.

As PreRaphaelite said, the OMW doesn't want to know any more details because she's afraid those details might change the dynamics in her marriage and for now she's comfortable with what she knows and allows to take further disrespect from her H (OM). 
Just because she allows this in her marriage, doesn't mean you have to allow to be disrespected the same way by your WS.

Also, keep in mind that the chances for you to be her plan B are higher. You don't have to give her time to think if she wants to work on this marriage or not.* She either decides right here, right now or you're gone forever!!!!! *

By giving her time, you let her calculate with whom she can eat more cake: Him or you. 
But a decent spouse doesn't need to time think about who to choose - her spouse or her affair partner. 

But I'm wasting my time talking about the decent spouse because your wife isn't one since she decided to cheat in the first place.


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## PreRaphaelite (Dec 15, 2012)

lovelygirl said:


> No, you are not making it any larger than it needs to be. You just happen to be around people (including the OMW) *who are fine with poor boundaries* in a marriage and won't make a big deal out of cheating. The problem is them, not you.
> 
> As PreRaphaelite said, the OMW doesn't want to know any more details because she's afraid those details might change the dynamics in her marriage and for now she's comfortable with what she knows and allows to take further disrespect from her H (OM).
> Just because she allows this in her marriage, doesn't mean you have to allow to be disrespected the same way by your WS.
> ...


:iagree:

Lovelygirl is spot on. Either she's with you or she's not at this point. Giving her time to "figure out her emotions" is just an invitation for her to continue behind your back with the OM until she "figures out" whose bed she'd rather sleep in.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

From your first post:


> The confrontation was typical I guess. Accusations, lied responses, finally tears and a "full account". Still though, she immediately turned the tables on me when confronted and said that she wasn't sure about the relationship either (which felt like a power play at the time - not sure).


She lied initially, then only admitted what you have been able to verify. Why do you give her the benefit of the doubt on her story?


> I do have OM's phone number and address and I know he's in a long term relationship with a girl (who lives there). When I mentioned I would contact her my W went ballistic and threw the really heavy armoury at me (threatening to take kids away to the other country).


She was so embarrassed and ashamed that she threatened to separate her children from their father if her boyfriend was outed. Thing about that for a minute. Her BF was so important that she was willing to kidnap your kids if you told the OM’s GF. Do you really believe this is all over a few kisses?


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## mahike (Aug 16, 2011)

Your exposure was the right thing to do. She is going by the cheaters playbook at the moment. The A was all about rainbows and unicorns and you casued her pain and her AP pain. That was not part of her game plan so she blows up at you.

Once the A is in the sunlight the fun and good feelings she was having are all over.

The next step when she comes around will be the no contact letter she will write and you will send.

Please keep in mind that an A is all about a big lie to you so becareful about what you believe.

Good Luck


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

mahike said:


> Your exposure was the right thing to do. She is going by the cheaters playbook at the moment. The A was all about rainbows and unicorns and you casued her pain and her AP pain. That was not part of her game plan so she blows up at you.
> 
> Once the A is in the sunlight the fun and good feelings she was having are all over.
> 
> ...


I don't think he got in touch with OMW. His cheating wife knew he was exposing as fast as he was doing it. /that means the OM knew he was doing it at the time it was happening.

When he threatened to expose, his wife told the OM and he has access to her email.

OMW has to be called at work and talked to live.


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## Shadow_Nirvana (Jan 1, 2013)

I think you are being played big time about the exposure thing. But I dont know if you can do anything about that at the moment. Either the OM intercepted it or indeed she has such large boundaries or she is a doormat. Also consider that your wife may have warned the OM and he may have been feeding her lies about what an abusive and paranoid husband you are. Weird and uncalled for. But happens. Maybe she called the OM and the he called your wife about this.

The thing with the "malicious" speech is... Doesn't it kinda sound effed to you too? "Okay, I lied and cheated on you, but we can reconcile because I may want us to, but oh noes! You have gone and told somebody, who definitely has a right to know btw. I am MAD at you, because I don't have a clue about what you are feeling right now and why are you not worshipping the floor that I step on and hope that I might throw some love crumbs in your way"

Your wife has no idea about what you are feeling. The lame part is she has to understand this herself. You cannot show your emotions about this. You cannot cry, you cannot plead to her, you cannot beg her. Either she figures what she did was a terrible thing, or she doesn't. You can't change her path, but you can enable her to make the right or wrong choice.

Edit: I also believe exposure the OMW should be done live, especialy if the Wayward and the AP has an inkling that you might try to expose.


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## ArmyofJuan (Dec 29, 2010)

Your wife is not remorseful, that’s pretty clear.

If you are going to wait for her to fall back in love I’m telling you that will NOT happen. The status quo is only going to build resentment. The ONLY way she is going to show interest again is when she fears losing you. To her that’s not a reality at the moment, she still believes she has control of you and can strong arm you to do whatever she pleases. 

The only way she is going to “wake up” and put forth any effort in reconciling is if you attempt to divorce her. Then you will what she is really made of and if she really wants to R and not just string you along until something better shows up. She needs to fear losing for good so don’t bluff, move towards a D until she convinces you to stop (actions, not words).

At the end of the day, she cheated so she brought this on herself. Sex or no sex is irrelevant.


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## moxy (Apr 2, 2012)

To be honest, it does look like she thinks she holds all the cards. It's absurd that she thinks your objection to her cheating is worse than her cheating. My h responded similarly, claiming that I made something fixable completely un-fixable by exposing his actions. He insulted and raged until I filed for divorce; then he started being nice. The thing is, he'd made me feel so worthless by this point that I didn't think he could possibly want a relationship, just wanted to punish me; it turns out it was both, but he still tried to overpower his way into being the only way. Our situation is still unresolved. Learn from the experience of the board and avoid some extra pain!

I think your wife doesn't believe this is a deal breaker for you. Call her bluff and maybe you'll find out what is real and what is posturing. You can fix anything if you're not standing in the same level, so level the playing field by calling her bluff. Either she wants to be married or she doesn't. Either you do or you don't. Or, both if you are unsure; only honesty will help you resolve this , if that's the case.

Step back. 180. NC. Show her that this IS a deal breaker so she faces it. IMO, you won't evoke her remorse because she isn't strong enough in character to face her failures.


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## mahike (Aug 16, 2011)

Make sure you really exposed this contact the OM's wife. You found her on Linkedin so you know where she works. Call her and make sure she knows.


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## theroad (Feb 20, 2012)

chapparal said:


> We can see the phone records on line. If you can check now you can see how much they are talking texting about the exposure.
> 
> So the OM's wife told him you were communicating with her? Or did he intercept the message. How did he find out that quick and let your wife know. You need to talk to her in person or at least on the phone to be sure you really got her the message. He found out before you even got the message off?
> 
> We see waywards intercepting the exposure messages often.


I tend to think the OM intercepted the exposure message. This is why exposure is always best done in person.


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## theroad (Feb 20, 2012)

chapparal said:


> I don't think he got in touch with OMW. His cheating wife knew he was exposing as fast as he was doing it. /that means the OM knew he was doing it at the time it was happening.
> 
> When he threatened to expose, his wife told the OM and he has access to her email.
> 
> OMW has to be called at work and talked to live.


The Seven Tao Rules Of Life


You never piss into the wind.

You never spit into the wind.

You never tell a WW that you are using a VAR.

You never tell a WW that you are using a key logger.

You never tell a WW that you put a GPS on her car.

You never tell a WW that you will expose if she does not end her affair.

You never tell a WW that you are going to expose.


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

originally posted by carmen ohio:

While I greatly respect the other posters on this thread, I believe many of them, like you, are missing the big picture here -- namely, what should you do to regain your happiness.

From reading your notes, it is clear that you were absent from class the day they handed out the "how to be happy" instructions. So let me fill you in on The 10 Rules for Happiness:

Rule No. 1: You only get one life; never forget that. Corollary: You don't know how long you will live, you could live another 50 years or you might die tomorrow; never forget that either.

Rule No. 2: Deal with things as they really are, not as you would like them to be. Face up to your problems rather than pretending they don't exist or hoping they will simply go away.

Rule No. 3: You are solely responsible for your own happiness: don't expect or look to others to make you happy.

Rule No. 4: Your decisions and actions will have the greatest impact on your happiness. If you do the right things, your life will be better and vice versa. Corollary: Be honest with yourself about your failings and genuinely seek to improve yourself.

Rule No. 5: There is no guarantee that you will always be happy: some people win life's lottery, most don't and some people get the shaft. Corollary 1: Don't complain about the cards you are dealt or wallow in self-pity. Instead, focus on what you can control and learn not to worry about the rest. Corollary 2: Understand that it sometimes takes time and effort to regain your happiness.

Rule No. 6: Understand what makes you happy and what doesn't. Corollary 1: Since you will change over time, reconsider from time to time what will make you happy now and adjust your decisions and actions accordingly. Corollary 2: When something happens that makes you very unhappy, consider the totality of the situation: sometimes cutting down a few trees is the answer, other times you need to look for a new forest in which to live.

Rule No. 7: Do what makes you happy. Don't do what others (parents, friends, bosses, spouses, even children) want you to do unless it is what makes you happy. This might sound selfish but it's not. Some people are happiest when they are serving others (e.g., firemen, Mother Teresa). 

Rule No. 8: If you are unhappy about something, eliminate it from your life or, if that is not possible, minimize the degree of unhappiness it can cause you. If it's a situation (like a bad job), change it. If it's a thing (like a poorly operating car), get rid of it. If it's a person (like a wayward spouse), stop interacting or least minimize contact with the person. Corollary: When something or someone starts to cause you unhappiness, take action immediately; don't wait around hoping things will get better.

Rule No. 9: You don't apologize to anyone for doing what makes you happy. Corollary: You have no obligation to explain yourself or justify your decisions or actions. If you choose to do so, it should only be because it is to your advantage to do so.

Rule No. 10: Be the best person you can be, as you measure things. For most men, this means being fit and attractive to members of the opposite sex, being financially successfully and being emotionally strong and independent. But if you measure life success differently (e.g., displaying Christian virtues, gaining notoriety, acquiring power), then make these the main focus of you efforts.

If we apply these rules to your situation, it become readily apparent that you are breaking all the rules. For example:

☻ You are focused in the moment rather than thinking about how you want to live the rest of your life (violation of Rule No. 1). 

☻ You are more concerned about what your W may or may not have done rather than dealing with what you know she has done (violation of Rule No. 2).

☻ You seek affirmation from your W of your self-worth and the guidance of strangers as to what you should do, rather than taking responsibility for yourself (violation of Rule Nos. 3, 4 and 9).

☻ You are reluctant to take steps to improve your situation and instead are wallowing in self-pity and shame (violation of Rule Nos. 5, 7, 8 and 10).

☻ You seem not to have thought deeply about what you really want out of life (violation of Rule No. 6). 

☻ You reject the notion that your life may have to radically change in order for you to (eventually) be happy (another violation of Rule No. 6).

Based on the facts as you have recited them, I believe you have ample reason to be unhappy in your current circumstances and sufficient justification for taking action. So let me offer you an alternative approach to your problem that is consistent with the Rules of Happiness:

1. Sit your W down and tell her that you are so unhappy with your marriage that you are prepared to end it. Explain that, given what you know (OM's note, her hiding her phone messages, etc.), you can only conclude that either she is having an affair or that she doesn't care about you (as these are the only two reasons why she would not have taken steps to address your concerns when you first raised them). Say that, in either case, you would rather end your marriage than continue it since you deserve and are confident that you can have better than what you have right now.

2. Tell her that, out of love for her and your children, you are willing to give her one last chance to save her marriage and prove to you that she is a worthy wife. This requires her telling you everything that has happened between her and her boss, showing you all of her e-mails and text messages, giving you access to all of her communications in the future, immediately terminating all contact with her boss, demonstrating by word and deed on a daily basis that she loves and respects you and doing whatever else you require for her to prove her worth.

3. Tell her that it is her choice whether to do these things or not but, if she chooses not to, you plan to hire an attorney and file for divorce.

4. Stay calm and collected and don't argue with her. If she questions or challenges anything you say, calmly reply that she now knows what you expect of her and it is up to her to decide what she wants to do. Repeat your message as many times as necessary until she realizes that you mean what you say.

5. Give her a very short period of time to consider this. For example, tell her that you plan to speak to an attorney the next day so, if she wants to save her marriage, she has but a few hours to accept your offer.

6. If she refuses, immediately speak to an attorney and commence divorce proceedings.

7. If she agrees, continue to monitor her closely to make sure she does not go underground. Don't tolerate her complaining or pouting for more than a couple of days. If you get any indication that she is not serious about following through with her promise, start divorce proceedings.

8. For the foreseeable future, be cordial toward your W but nothing more. Don't initiate conversations, compliment her, argue with her or do anything else that would lead her to believe that she is anything special to you. Act at all times like a man who knows what he wants and knows that he can get what he wants, if not from her, then somewhere else.

9. Begin to take steps to improve yourself (exercise, work, activities). Make this -- along with your kids -- the focus of your life for now.

10. Start to educate yourself on what it takes to be a man in the 21st century. A good place to start is to read "The Married Man Sex Life Primer" by Athol Kay.

If you take these steps, I can't guarantee that you will end up in a happy marriage with your current W but I can promise that, eventually, you will give yourself the greatest chance of finding true happiness. The key point is that you can't control your W but you can control you. Hence, you should be doing the things that will eventually make you happy, whether your W wants to be with you or not.

I'm not saying any of this will be easy; it may be the hardest thing you will ever have to do. But unless you do it, your life will likely only get worse.

Wishing the best for you.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Tall, you need to talk to the OMW in person. Surley you rmarriage is worth going to her work.

This is just me, but I would send "her" andother email stating I don't think how serious and dangerous it is for a man to kiss and try to f*ck another mans wife.

OK so I would be guilty of stirring the pot. But this stuff makes my blood boil.


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## TallLean (Jan 8, 2013)

First of all, thank you to everyone for your advice. It is helping and nudging me in the right direction. The exposure in particular has really brought things to a head rather than the drifting previously.

So...the next installment.

I'm just going to spew out what happened last night. Apologies if it isn't terribly coherent.

I picked her up from the airport yesterday afternoon with the kids. Eldest was ecstatic to see me (and me him). But this was the only nice thing about it. W gave me the silent, glaring treatment, only responding to the most direct basic questions. My stomach was in knots and I was in a really bad state. But I kept it together and was absolutely cordial and didn't let on.

We got the kids off to sleep. Then I said that we need to talk. But I said that we should focus on particular subjects so that we don't get bogged down and asked what she would like to talk about first. The exposure, she replied. Why did I do it? Especially after she had warned me what would happen?

I explained that my motivation was to remove the fantasy from the affair they were having so they could see it in the cold light of day and asked why she was so angry that I had done it. She seemed unsure of herself with this and came out with some pretty lame things, but later on she said (though I'm not sure it really registered with her) that she was upset because I had ended it and that he was staying with his gf.

After this, I said that we needed to set up timelines for deciding what we were going to do. I repeated that I was willing to give it a go if she was 100% committed, but that I couldn't wait forever and wanted to now put a date on it. She has her IC session tonight and has planned to meet up with a good friend (who is a psychotherapist) and stay over at hers on Friday night to talk it through (more on this later). So I said she could have until Monday morning to make her decision. She baulked at this and said that I had had more time (I had a week alone whilst she remained in Spain - her own choice). Unfortunately I relented and we are now going to decide the exact date after her IC session tonight.

The discussion became a little more nebulous and we talked about our relationship and where it might have gone wrong. She never offered any blame for herself throughout this I noticed.

Later on, things were less frosty and as we were heading to bed we were chatting again about the time i was giving her to think. I said that if she used any of this time to see him or attempt to see him all bets were off. She got angry at this, which I've realised is a red flag. She said that it wasn't going to happen now anyway because I had outed them, but she had been thinking of seeing him one more time to "make sure she didn't have feelings for him anymore". 

Bloody hell. I've read about the mist, but really didn't "get it". Her main relationship is on the brink and she is thinking about meeting him? As others have said, she obviously doesn't get how close it is to being over. And I'm really wondering if there's anything worth salvaging from this at all. I'm starting to see how selfish she is and look back through our years together and wonder how I put up with it.

Throughout I think I did pretty well last night (apart from relenting on the date thing) and stayed absolutely calm - I didn't rise to any bait. We almost have a timeline defined (I will push that home tonight) and I'm looking forward to that. Though I am questioning whether I really want to have another go now...


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## PreRaphaelite (Dec 15, 2012)

TallLean: You did pretty well, but you apparently are still holding on to a vain hope. It's obvious by her responses that she in no way wants to end this affair and she blames you for doing it. After your conversation she is going to revert back to her previous attitude. 

Everything she said screams of a wife who is not the least bit sorry for what she did. I'm 99.9% certain that she is in constant contact with the OM. I would not even believe this story about her staying with her psychotherapist friend. 

The problem is that now she and the OM are probably doing whatever damage control they can...and who knows what else they are planning? 

You need to start preparing now, and by that I mean you need to protect yourself. She is your wife on paper only. See a lawyer ASAP and learn your options, protect your finances, get the divorce papers ready to go.


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## TallLean (Jan 8, 2013)

PreRaphaelite said:


> TallLean: You did pretty well, but you apparently are still holding on to a vain hope. It's obvious by her responses that she in no way wants to end this affair and she blames you for doing it. After your conversation she is going to revert back to her previous attitude.


I think I'm pretty done with it all to be honest. She is trashing me emotionally and I'm starting to realise that it isn't just now, our whole relationship has had a similar pattern where she never apologised for anything. Ever.


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## TallLean (Jan 8, 2013)

PreRaphaelite said:


> Everything she said screams of a wife who is not the least bit sorry for what she did. I'm 99.9% certain that she is in constant contact with the OM. I would not even believe this story about her staying with her psychotherapist friend.
> 
> The problem is that now she and the OM are probably doing whatever damage control they can...and who knows what else they are planning?
> 
> You need to start preparing now, and by that I mean you need to protect yourself. She is your wife on paper only. See a lawyer ASAP and learn your options, protect your finances, get the divorce papers ready to go.


The psychotherpist is a mutual friend, so I can check that she sleeps there. Doesn't mean she won't meet with him on the way there or back though.

I just had a phone call from her where she was trying to find her keys. She actually sounded reasonable and maybe even happy. Judging on what's happened so far this can only mean one thing: OM has been in contact in a positive way. My thoughts are that maybe OM did intercept the exposure message and has told her only now or at least he has shown his continued interest. I will have to speak to OMW in person it seems. 

Though realising what is happening here and comments from other users makes me think I don't want her back at all. She is behaving terribly and what little we had to work on has drained away. I would have to give her months of my life on the offchance that this behaviour would suddenly stop. It doesn't seem likely to me. I would rather have no relationship than the one she's offering. Apart from the kids, my take-away from our time together will be that she made me "damaged-goods". It is going to take a lot for me to trust someone in a relationship again.

I'm going to start my 180. Wish me luck.


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## Shadow_Nirvana (Jan 1, 2013)

TallLean said:


> Later on, things were less frosty and as we were heading to bed we were chatting again about the time i was giving her to think. I said that if she used any of this time to see him or attempt to see him all bets were off. She got angry at this, which I've realised is a red flag. She said that it wasn't going to happen now anyway because I had outed them, but she had been thinking of seeing him one more time to "make sure she didn't have feelings for him anymore".


OMG! Did she really say this? What a selfish, entitled ...! Even this means that right now you are a backup plan for her. If she doesn't have feelings for him, then she'll come back to you-with no remorse-, if she has , then she'll give you the middle finger and move on.

That never apologizing for mistakes part means she has been taking you for granted. Don't let it go on any more. Emotionally detach(do the 180) and move on with your life. I don't think things are salvageable with this lady of yours.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Yes! Talk to the OM's W. Also talk to a lawyer asap. Then let her know you did it. She is not taking you seriously. Tell her you are naming him in the divorce and he will have to testify.


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## TallLean (Jan 8, 2013)

Shadow_Nirvana said:


> OMG! Did she really say this? What a selfish, entitled ...! Even this means that right now you are a backup plan for her. If she doesn't have feelings for him, then she'll come back to you-with no remorse-, if she has , then she'll give you the middle finger and move on.


Realise I've made it sound (even) worse than it was. Context was that she had allegedly sent him her own no contact messages, but she thought it would be better to tell him to his face.

Still obviously BS. She just wanted to see him again, but more delusional than outright b!tch by my reckoning.

It changes little for me now anyway. I've started a spreadsheet with our assets and have got web advice on how to start the process.


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## PreRaphaelite (Dec 15, 2012)

TallLean said:


> Realise I've made it sound (even) worse than it was. Context was that she had allegedly sent him her own no contact messages, but she thought it would be better to tell him to his face.
> 
> Still obviously BS. She just wanted to see him again, but more delusional than outright b!tch by my reckoning.
> 
> It changes little for me now anyway. I've started a spreadsheet with our assets and have got web advice on how to start the process.


Good for you. Now follow through with it and don't back off. You're probably going to hear a pile of **** from her: threats, pleadings, blame, you name it. Ignore them. 

If she wants to leave so badly then she can go. Be willing to let her go. Meanwhile, it is you, your well-being and your future now to be concerned about.


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## theroad (Feb 20, 2012)

You need to follow up and make sure OMW knows. It still sounds as if OM intercepted your exposure.


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## mahike (Aug 16, 2011)

OK I would tell her that you have thought about what she has said about seeing the other man again. I would tell her times up. Do you want to fix this yes or no. If she struggles and says that this is not fair. Let her know that the choice to F another man was her choice and this one is yours.

Yes or no if she says no tell her to pack her stuff and get out. Leave the kids. If she balks at that tell her she gave up the right to you and her family when she dropped her panties.

This is a time to be tough. I hope everyone can R but you have to shake them hard out of the fog. I missed this do her parents know? They need to know as well.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

mahike said:


> OK I would tell her that you have thought about what she has said about seeing the other man again. I would tell her times up. Do you want to fix this yes or no. If she struggles and says that this is not fair. Let her know that the choice to F another man was her choice and this one is yours.
> 
> Yes or no if she says no tell her to pack her stuff and get out. Leave the kids. If she balks at that tell her she gave up the right to you and her family when she dropped her panties.
> 
> This is a time to be tough. I hope everyone can R but you have to shake them hard out of the fog. I missed this do her parents know? They need to know as well.


I agree with this. You have the right to change your mind (after all, she did on the whole "marraige vows" thing). Tell her she needs to have her decision by the start of counseling tonight. That allows you to decide whether the goal of counseling is to fix the marriage or have an amicable divorce.


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## TallLean (Jan 8, 2013)

mahike said:


> OK I would tell her that you have thought about what she has said about seeing the other man again. I would tell her times up. Do you want to fix this yes or no. If she struggles and says that this is not fair. Let her know that the choice to F another man was her choice and this one is yours.
> 
> Yes or no if she says no tell her to pack her stuff and get out. Leave the kids. If she balks at that tell her she gave up the right to you and her family when she dropped her panties.
> 
> This is a time to be tough. I hope everyone can R but you have to shake them hard out of the fog. I missed this do her parents know? They need to know as well.


After her IC last night we spoke. Initially she was still giving it the sulky / passive aggressive stance. But I told her that although I understood she was angry, our relationship was hanging by a thin thread and she was pushing me away all the time. I told her that I was angry too - more angry than she could believe - but I was keeping a lid on it for the sake of the kids and anything we could salvage. At some point I would give up though and it was less than a day away.

This seemed to shake her out of it and we talked properly. She said that she was feeling angry because I had taken the decision to end it away from her. She had actually already done it (which she had done via text) and she said that she felt like i was bullying her into staying with me. 

I explained to her that although she thought she had ended it, it was still there. OM would not let her away from their exciting little liaison that easily and would keep knocking at her door. One day it would be when she was weak and it would go again. We talked about the addictiveness of the affair and the thrill of receiving the messages. She admitted that she had "ended" it previously and was still thrilled when he came back and said he wouldn't let it go. I think she has finally realised what she was in and how she didn't have control over it whatsoever. In short, I think she now understands why I exposed the affair and my motivation more.

So we have agreed to do marriage counselling. I am getting a referral from my IC today. There's a lot to work through tbh and I'm not sure we'll make it - even this morning I noticed our old patterns showing up. The boiler in our place has started whistling when it starts up and we had a fairly sleepless night with the kids waking up. She more or less barked at me "You need to speak to the Landlord to get that sorted" which raised my hackles and I could feel the resentment bubbling up in me. It's back to our old way of communicating. 

But the poisonous atmosphere has dropped since she's realised it's not a game anymore. We've got a lot to go through in this counselling and I'm not that confident tbh. But it was starting to feel like it was going to get REAL messy with a terrible separation.

Positive note: My jogging stuff arrived today. Tonight will be the first run out (well run, walk, run, walk,  ).


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## blindside123 (Jan 10, 2013)

_The problem with the non-contact thing is that she's currently "unsure" about whether we get back together or not. She did recently text to say she wanted to try, but then said she might change her mind.

Problem with this for me is that it feels like a power play. I was angry and had every right, but she took the wind out of my sails with that. On the other side, people say that women often check out of a relationship before the affair. So maybe it's just true._

Man, I have a very similar situation to yours. She cheated, she lied with a friend who was married. She even talked with him about leaving me, but finally broke it of with him since he (!) couldn't decide between the wifey or her. 

She is holding all the cards as well and asking for time to decide and made comments "just leave me if you are too much in pain to forgive me", when I expressed that it was hurting... 

I wish you all the best for the future, and you are not alone, as you can see...


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Good luck tall


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## blindside123 (Jan 10, 2013)

_OK I would tell her that you have thought about what she has said about seeing the other man again. I would tell her times up. Do you want to fix this yes or no. If she struggles and says that this is not fair. Let her know that the choice to F another man was her choice and this one is yours._

If I understand correctly, she did not see the other guy again. In my case as well, she said she would like to see him. When we were talking about breaking up, she said that we would not have to break up if she could see him once more in order to close the book, and funnily enough in order to ask him how he is coping with it in his marriage. 

What a load of crap. We broke up, she went to see the guy, at least once. I don't know what good it did to her, but it made me feel that I should be more sure about my decision to break it off. 

Seeing him again, is a big deal breaker. She should know better and not even tell it to your face that she wants to see him again. No, no, no. But easier said than done, having my one problems of leaving my gf....


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## TallLean (Jan 8, 2013)

chapparal said:


> Good luck tall


Thanks man!


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## TallLean (Jan 8, 2013)

blindside123 said:


> _OK I would tell her that you have thought about what she has said about seeing the other man again. I would tell her times up. Do you want to fix this yes or no. If she struggles and says that this is not fair. Let her know that the choice to F another man was her choice and this one is yours._
> 
> If I understand correctly, she did not see the other guy again. In my case as well, she said she would like to see him. When we were talking about breaking up, she said that we would not have to break up if she could see him once more in order to close the book, and funnily enough in order to ask him how he is coping with it in his marriage.
> 
> ...


Sorry to see your in a similar position blindside. 

I think that was the thing that really rocked my world. First you get the jab on the nose that she's cheated on you. Then the next jab that it was multiple times and possibly full on sex. But the uppercut is when you realise she has proper deep feelings for this guy who she's spent so little time with. 

The mist is the killer in all this. I really understand why the exposure thing is so important now. The mist twists everything he does in a positive way and everything you do negatively.


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## TallLean (Jan 8, 2013)

Small update

We're still waiting for the relationship counselling to begin. 

In the meantime we're in a slightly eerie place. It feels a lot like it was before the whole thing blew up. In a (mostly) good way. We sleep together, joke and talk (and argue). But it's still there hanging over us. Old habits die hard i guess.

She is still trying to get her head around it all. Very angry about the exposure still. There's little reconciliation coming from her corner. She says that she wants to wait until the counselling before going over it all.

This is frustrating and worrying in equal parts. My biggest worry at the moment is that we get back together and it happens again. More so than us splitting. I'm going to have to be really careful not to take the "easy" route if there's danger signs.


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## mahike (Aug 16, 2011)

Get ready for blame shift 101 at the MC session. She is going to justify her A and complain about your exposure right off the bat. She does not seem to me remoresful to you at this point. I would bet there is still some communication going on.

When you get to the MC you can admit yes we have to work on our marriage issues but the A must come first and she must tell you everything. She has to take responsability for what she has done

Our you checking up on her still. I would be at this point. Sorry you are here.


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## TallLean (Jan 8, 2013)

mahike said:


> Our you checking up on her still. I would be at this point. Sorry you are here.


She has locked her phone. Supposedly "To teach me a lesson" due to the exposure. Big red flag this, I admit. So she can easily contact him in the meantime. This doesn't bother me too greatly as I will be looking at the phone bill later on and I don't think she's thought of that. I've got to hold back the urge to look for a while, so when i do look there'll be proper evidence.

At the moment I don't have the password for her online phone billing. I do have access to her email though and can reset the password if needed. But that will blow the cover on my email access (as email will get delivered to her iphone).

So, when we start MC, I will ask for her to give me access to all this. If she refuses I'll look at the phone bills and I'll know what to expect...


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

TallLean said:


> She has locked her phone. Supposedly "To teach me a lesson" due to the exposure. Big red flag this, I admit. So she can easily contact him in the meantime. This doesn't bother me too greatly as I will be looking at the phone bill later on and I don't think she's thought of that. I've got to hold back the urge to look for a while, so when i do look there'll be proper evidence.
> 
> At the moment I don't have the password for her online phone billing. I do have access to her email though and can reset the password if needed. But that will blow the cover on my email access (as email will get delivered to her iphone).
> 
> So, when we start MC, I will ask for her to give me access to all this. If she refuses I'll look at the phone bills and I'll know what to expect...


Actually it's not a red-flag. It's a blantant loud message - "I do not want to be in this relationship, and I want to have freedom and privacy to cheat."

Transparency is the first and easiest thing to do if you are actually remorseful.

the fact that she won't go there screams her true intentions and priorities. 

My advice, you need to stop that attitude and behavior in it its tracks hard. Explain that doing things like that means you will walk away.


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## Kallan Pavithran (Jan 17, 2012)

Shaggy said:


> Actually it's not a red-flag. It's a blantant loud message - "I do not want to be in this relationship, and I want to have freedom and privacy to cheat."
> 
> *Transparency is the first and easiest thing to do if you are actually remorseful.
> *
> ...


:iagree:


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## mahike (Aug 16, 2011)

I have to agree that the locked phone is an absolute. She does not want to be in the marriage at this point. I understand your measured aproach but this is a time to be firm and agresive.

I would sit down with her and tell her you want the phone and the password right now and if she does not want to do that point at the front door and tell her to get out.

She is still emailing, calling texting him and does not want you to see what she is up too.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

You did not tell her she had taught you everything you needed to know about her?

Now she is just rubbing your face in it.


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