# How do I fix things



## wistful_thinking

My marriage seems to be deteriorating. I want to fix things, but I am not sure how. 

I have a lot to be thankful for, we have 2 smart children. My husband makes 90k with thousands more in bonuses. We live in a cozy house in a beautiful neighborhood with good schools. I am able to work on Saturday only for $22 per hour. We are both 32. We have been together since 20. We also have a good sex life and usually do it every other day.

I felt that things were deteriorating at the birth of my daughter. And I tried to fix things. I read John Gottman's 7 principles. I tried to follow the advice, but my husband wasn't listening to me about it. We were arguing and he ended up screaming at me that he was just going to divorce me. I felt very sad, but he recanted. 

I think a lot has to do with how difficult my husband's job is, and we don't spend enough 1:1 time. He works long hours and our children are 8 and 15 months. On top of this by the end of the day, I am exhausted and we rarely spend time together. 

The problems are that my husband is hard for me to work with. For one thing, he rarely gives a direct answer. He answers questions with more questions. I often get exhausted and give up when trying to say anything to him. 

In the past, he has done things to me that were unkind. Example: he would say he'll be right there and then keep working for another hour while I waited. He has stopped this recently. He also encouraged me to ask him out for lunch and then said no over 100 times (literally). Now I am refusing to ask at all because I assume no. He thinks this is not trying. I am tired of asking and being turned down: Impasse. 

He woke me up late on Friday night by turning all the lights on in our bedroom and slamming things around. I had to work eary in the morning. I woke up and told him I am so tired of you. Let's just get divorced. 

I asked him to come and help me find my county pass because I wanted to go to the gym. He said he would be down in a minute. I was angry because I wanted to find it and leave so I just slammed and shattered my phone. 

We just feel so much resentment towards each other. How do we solve it?


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## wistful_thinking

Also I mean he said no 100/100 times for lunch dates. He does not dispute this.

Also he is reading this too.


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## wistful_thinking

Also I mean 8 years and 15 months for our children's ages.


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## wistful_thinking

I also want to add that my husband makes most of the money, is good at managing money (our house is a 360k house and we only owe 49k, we have an over 200k retirement fund), he buys me whatever he can. He also helps and parents when he is home.


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## MachoMcCoy

wistful_thinking said:


> Also he is reading this too.


Good.

Then hopefully he will soon know how damn lucky he is that he hasn't lost you yet. Get him to pick up one of those books on walk-away-wives. (WHAT? There ARE NONE?).

Hey dude. I am you. Your wife is mine. By the time I realized how far she was gone, it was too late to fix myself. It was too late to win her back. It went on for 15 years before I realized she was gone. It may be too late for you as well. 

She's getting ready to walk if she hasn't already. Of that I have NO DOUBT. And I also know you will brush this advice off "that's not us". I know that because it's what push-away husbands do. It's what I did. And now my wife curls up into a ball of a cocoon EVERY NIGHT when we go to bed. With her back to me. Sometimes a half-hearted good night. Usually not. I die a little more ever time that happens.

But that's just me. I may be an idiot and not know what I'm talking about. Good luck to you.

You're losing her. And you don't know it yet. You STILL won't know it when this thread dies and falls to page 7. Because we're STILL treating walk-away-wives as all of the millions of little individual scenarios and not the big picture. 

Get your sh1t together pal, or you'll be me at 50.


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## MachoMcCoy

wistful_thinking said:


> I also want to add that my husband makes most of the money, is good at managing money (our house is a 360k house and we only owe 49k, we have an over 200k retirement fund), he buys me whatever he can. He also helps and parents when he is home.


What a swell guy. Which is why I KNOW he will ignore my advice. I was a swell guy too. Everybody loved me. Except the one that saw the married me.


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## wistful_thinking

McCoy--I am sorry to hear about your problems. Thanks for your helpful answer. I love my husband and I want to find a way to work things out. 

He also may he taking out his frustrations on me. He is a good person, and a smart person. I can also be annoying. I get overwhelmed. He gets overwhelmed. 

Maybe having a young child is a hard time. 

I don't really know what is going on in his mind. 

He walked to work so I wouldn't have to drive him. He helped me with the baby. He played phase 10 with me.


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## BirdieToldMe

To me, nothing you mentioned seems un-fixable. It sounds like you both are just exhausted. Have you tried counseling? I think that you two could both do some things to help each other out (I mean, this goes for every couple) and meet in the middle regarding your issues. Perhaps you could both tell each other two things that you would like to work on - then truly do it. 

If he's reading this too, that makes me feel like you both know what you have is worth fighting for. Kids are HARD. Working full-time is HARD. Marriage and life are HARD. You both are probably doing the best you can but with a few changes, things can really get better. 

I think that he's doing some disrespectful things that he should apologize for and then you can agree to drop it and start fresh. Make sure he knows that you are worth being a top priority for him - and show him the same in return. You may be doing this already but ask him if he feels like you make him a priority. There might be an area in which you could work harder. You never know ... just make the conversation a healthy one that doesn't turn into an argument -- which is where a therapist can truly help. 

This may sound dumb but is there any chance you two could jet off without the kids for a mini-vacation and reconnect a little? Not just as a quick fix but as a fresh start?


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## Relationship Teacher

wistful_thinking said:


> My marriage seems to be deteriorating. I want to fix things, but I am not sure how.
> 
> 
> We just feel so much resentment towards each other. How do we solve it?


How? Eliminate your expectations. Solved.

It is that simple, but getting there is not usually an overnight process. I am writing an article right now and the topic seems to apply here as well. Stop and think before you do or say something negative to one another. You have a 15-month-old, that is an incredible burden on a relationship. You indicate that he has a pretty tough work-load, which, likewise, places a burden on the relationship.

He probably didn't think he would have to turn you down for lunch. He made an honest attempt, it just isn't working out as he envisioned. Can you not see the positivity in that? Of course it hurts to be rejected, but it depends from what viewpoint you are looking from. Are you looking at rejection while standing hand and hand with him or in a standoff, staring him down? This is a problem for the relationship and it needs the relationship (2 people) to solve it. Instead of resenting the rejection (and him), work together to find a way to have lunch together.

In terms of the communication breakdown, it seems he is overly tasked and can't shake the thoughts and load from his shoulders. Again, think about his feelings. Does he want this tax on his mind, body and emotions? Use compassion and find a way to solve the problem as a couple. My partner and I have a newborn, and we make an incredible effort to have some sort of 1-on-1 every single night. Sometimes it is only 60 seconds before I inevitably pass out, but that effort is there. In that case, I tell her to wake me up so we can cuddle when the fussy baby goes to sleep. It takes an all day effort to get 60 seconds or 60 minutes together, but we work together to get that.

A little acceptance from both individuals will go a LONG way.


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## wistful_thinking

Yes, I think that our marriage is fixable. I don't want to nag him, but I also don't want to be a doormat. He listens better if I text him; otherwise, he never listens. If I tell him one thing I don't like, he starts trying to fix that. And sometimes he can be a jerk.

He doesn't want to leave his job. We can't downsize. We live in Atlanta. We are just outside and we only paid about 207k (in 2012) for our house. Our neighbor was selling and we asked their realtor what we could get for our house. She looked around and did comps. It is only 1700 square feet which is a good size for us.

We are outside of the Atlanta school district, so with the school cheating scandal our neighborhood is now sought after; it is outside of the Atlanta school district, but close to everything. We also have a homestead exception, so we only pay $600 per month for taxes, which we would lose if we moved. We couldn't find a better place in the Atlanta.

We are originally from the Southern Illinois area, so we are fine with smaller places, but they don't offer the best jobs. I love Chattanooga and I would love to live in Tennessee. 

I don't want to leave our kids for a get away. I like having them with me. I like knowing that they are safe and well cared for. We are going to leave them with a parents night out program once per week.


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## FrazzledSadHusband

To wistefull_thinking husband - Money is just money, you can always make more. Your wife needs something that is even more valuable than money, as you CANNOT make more.

What is it? Your TIME! Find a sitter, get someone to handle your calls for a day. Take your wife out to breakfast, lunch & dinner. Make plans during this day on how BOTH of you will work on your marriage.

In advance of this date, get the 5 love languages book. Both of you read it & take the tests. Then discuss results on your day together. Also plan on how to spend more time together as a couple, AND with the kids.

Your marriage sounds salvageable. Much better than being alone or having to start dating all over again. Both of you have issues you need to work on. If you both have willing hearts, nothing is out of reach.


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## wistful_thinking

Yeah sure no expectations. He can do whatever he wants; so can I, including divorcing him. Otherwise, their is going to be some standards.


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## wistful_thinking

Thanks frazzled. That sounds fun. I would love to play hockey with him and he is reading these.


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## wistful_thinking

I meant hooky


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## Evinrude58

What are your husband's complaints? It sounds like you two just don't have a fun life together. He is trying to "do his job" at work and at home. But not trying to have fun with you at home. If he didn't respect you or care for you, he wouldn't help out at home and try when you told him there was a problem. But he's not feeling happy for some reason. You have to figure out why you are both unhappy. Like I said, what are his complaints? 

Husband: You will never know pain until you see her walking out the door for the last time, or see her with another man after you're divorced, or hearing your kids tell you about a fun trip they took with their step dad. 

Get to the bottom of this! Women will be unhappy for a while and still love you. But once the switch is turned off---- it will not come back on no matter how much you beg or try to change. I am truly praying for you. I don't want your wife to fall out of love with you.

Wife: whatever it takes, don't give up hope and help your husband. He sounds like a good guy, just overworked. A good man is far harder to find than you may think!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blondilocks

The answering a question with a question and slamming and breaking your phone are two signs of immaturity. Kids don't need kids for parents. Cut out some of the things that are causing the both of you stress. If it's the marriage that's causing stress, seek counseling. 

BTW, we can understand you perfectly well. You don't need to clarify just because your husband tells you to. So, how's about he get on and explain himself? Especially about turning you down for lunch 100 of 100 invitations and then tells you to try harder. That is the mark of a manipulator and a controller.


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## wistful_thinking

I agree that those are both signs of immaturity, and they are the worst things we have done. And not usual behavior for us. 

Does my husband have complaints. Yes. Mostly about work but he does say I just don't appreciate him. I write him love notes that say thank you regularly, so I am not sure what else I can do. 

This is the kind of things he says:

--people are always asking me for things. I am busy why can't they let me do my job?

--whatever I do my boss just asks me for more. 

--my assistant is an idiot. I am going to have to ask my boss to fire her. 

--why do you hate me?

-- no one appreciates me.

I don't think he is an evil manipulator at all.


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## Bremik

It sounds like you have forgotten what ever brought you two together as a couple to begin with. Work, children etc. have clouded that and maybe giving the money too much power as a symbol of success. 

I think if your families are still in Illinois take a 4 day weekend or however long you can take and just go back and relax and maybe go out to eat where you ate when you dated or wherever you hung out. It seems like perspective is gained when you remember how you started. If no family there you two take a quick weekend to go back to the dating days.

Speaking from an experience of my parents divorcing after 43 yrs when I thought they had everything and the money to get whatever they wanted- All the money in the world won't make a happy family if you forget what it is that made you a family


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## EleGirl

The following is a post that was made by wistful_thinking's husband. I deleted it because his user name was not anonymous. He will be creating his own account under an anonymous name. But until he does that I'm quoting his post until he gets a new user name.



> I am the husband in this situation
> @Blondilocks. You asked me to get on and explain my actions. That is fair
> 
> I am a Senior Applications Developer for a respectable company.
> 
> For years my team has been understaffed. A few years ago we had 3 full time developers and 3 contractors to do all of our developing work, including myself. Now we have 1, and we have more work. I am all that is left frantically trying to do all the work that should be handled by at least 3 people.
> 
> I honestly want to eat lunch with my wife. It's just that something always seemed to come up, and make it so that I couldn't get away. I feel horrible that I had to turn her down do many times. I love my wife and kids more then anything, and I am ashamed with myself that I let things get to this point.
> 
> I should have just said from the beginning that I couldn't eat lunch with her instead of turning her down so many times. It was just that I wanted to eat lunch with her, and was trying to make an effort. I have taken about 10 lunch breaks in about 3 years other then that I stay at my desk trying to keep things afloat. I am not trying to make excuses here. Nothing excuses my actions. I just wanted to explain my actions and choices.
> 
> The next logical question is why do I stay and put up with all of this. Simply put it is the best way to keep our finances in order. We moved from Illinois almost five years ago, and until recently we had a mortgage from Illinois along with our current mortgage. I was waiting for the housing market to improve to sell the other house, and finally about six months ago decided it wasn't going to improve. I had to borrow 25K to finally sell it, which I am now trying to pay back. I also worked a second job until about a year ago just trying to keep the family clothed fed, and provided for.
> 
> As far as slamming things around while my wife was trying to sleep that was an accident. My wife said she wanted to do something with the family after she got off work the next day, and if I was going to have the kids in the morning there would not be a chance to take a shower the next day. I was trying to quietly take a shower so that when she got done with work I would be ready to do what she wanted to do. Stealth I'd not one of my strong points and it backfired, that is muy fault.
> 
> As far as answering questions with questions. This Is something I have always done, my parents biggest complaint growing up was that no one could get a straight answer out of me. I will be the first to admit I am a horrible listener. This has to change I know that
> 
> 
> 
> I am not trying to make excuses, I just want to explain myself. Things are finally starting to slow down at work, we are trying to hire more people, and that has started to free me up a bit. I want to make things right.
> 
> My wife is one of the hardest workers I have ever met, and her complaints are valid. I feel that she needs more sleep, and more time to relax.
> 
> The only way I know to give her more sleep is for me to walk each morning to the park and ride each morning so that she can get more sleep, since I don't have a license do to medical issues this seems like the best option.
> 
> I am trying to help more around the house with
> the cleaning, and the kids when I get home to take the pressures off her a bit. I feel that she had been tired in the evenings, and that doing this will help her not feel so tired and increase our quality time together.
> 
> I realize at the end of the day I get home my job is done for the day. Hers does not stop until after the kids go to bed, and I feel it's my responsibility to start helping her with that.
> 
> Also I am trying to get a day off next week so that we can spend am uninterrupted day together. I know this won't solve everything, but it's s start


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## wistful_thinking

Thanks!


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## Marduk

wistful_thinking said:


> Yes, I think that our marriage is fixable. I don't want to nag him, but I also don't want to be a doormat. He listens better if I text him; otherwise, he never listens. If I tell him one thing I don't like, he starts trying to fix that. And sometimes he can be a jerk.
> 
> He doesn't want to leave his job. We can't downsize. We live in Atlanta. We are just outside and we only paid about 207k (in 2012) for our house. Our neighbor was selling and we asked their realtor what we could get for our house. She looked around and did comps. It is only 1700 square feet which is a good size for us.
> 
> We are outside of the Atlanta school district, so with the school cheating scandal our neighborhood is now sought after; it is outside of the Atlanta school district, but close to everything. We also have a homestead exception, so we only pay $600 per month for taxes, which we would lose if we moved. We couldn't find a better place in the Atlanta.
> 
> We are originally from the Southern Illinois area, so we are fine with smaller places, but they don't offer the best jobs. I love Chattanooga and I would love to live in Tennessee.
> 
> I don't want to leave our kids for a get away. I like having them with me. I like knowing that they are safe and well cared for. We are going to leave them with a parents night out program once per week.


You seem awfully fixated on money.


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## wistful_thinking

The messes can be hard because our baby is always trying to help me. I think if we tidy for 15 minutes each night things would be ok. We also need to do more baby proofing. Also, our son needs 1:1 time too. We also have a lot to fix around the house.

However, I am not so worried about any of that; everyone has those types of things. 

I think if we spent more time together doing fun things, our resentment would disappear. 

I really do love you. I appreciate who you are. You have so many good qualities. 

I don't think you have it any easier than me; you work so hard. Are you just unhappy?

I just want to push through and fix our problems. It's ok. We just need to put each other as a priority.

I'm sorry I broke my phone.


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## mr wistful

This is wistful_thinkings husband. I created a new account because I accidentally had my contact information displayed.

Thank You for writing that you wrote. It means allot to you that you appreciate how hard I work. I am not unhappy. I promise you that I am very happy to have you as a wife. I need you do a better job of showing you that. I love you more then anything. 

I realize I haven't been the best husband in the world at times, and for that I am truly sorry. I lost sight of what is important. You and our children are important. The only way I would be unhappy is if I lost you. 

I want nothing more then to push through this, and show you what you mean to me. Don't worry about your phone. It's just a phone. It can and already has been replaced. You and our children cannot be replaced. That is where I want to focus


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## wistful_thinking

Yes you are right I am fixated on money. I have just finished reading Bogle Heads. I know a lot about money. I know what a 401k, HSA, HELOC, HPI, IRA, Roth IRA, money market, portfolio, ect. without looking it up. I can tell you the max contribution you can make to your retirement accounts (just tell me your age and total compensation). I know what you can do to lower your tax burden, and which option is best for you. I helped my husband set everything up.

I know every cent that we have and owe. But I would still rather give up anything than lose my relationship with my husband. I don't know why I am like this. Maybe I was born this way? Maybe because of my parents?

I was raised in an impoverished area, in a very poor family 4 kids on 12k to 16k. I don't know why, but I saved all my money from the first time I was paid. I worked in the fields of my grandparents farm from when I was 3 or 4. I worked after school full-time before I was legal. In my defence, i can be generous. I guess I just want to be smart with money, which means educating myself, which I do think about it.

Is that a flaw? I don't really know.


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## wistful_thinking

Ok. Let's take this offline?


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## Keepin-my-head-up

Like sands through the hourglass, so are the Days of Our Lives...


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## Marduk

wistful_thinking said:


> Yes you are right I am fixated on money. I have just finished reading Bogle Heads. I know a lot about money. I know what a 401k, HSA, HELOC, HPI, IRA, Roth IRA, money market, portfolio, ect. without looking it up. I can tell you the max contribution you can make to your retirement accounts (just tell me your age and total compensation). I know what you can do to lower your tax burden, and which option is best for you. I helped my husband set everything up.
> 
> I know every cent that we have and owe. But I would still rather give up anything than lose my relationship with my husband. I don't know why I am like this. Maybe I was born this way? Maybe because of my parents?
> 
> I was raised in an impoverished area, in a very poor family 4 kids on 12k to 16k. I don't know why, but I saved all my money from the first time I was paid. I worked in the fields of my grandparents farm from when I was 3 or 4. I worked after school full-time before I was legal. In my defence, i can be generous. I guess I just want to be smart with money, which means educating myself, which I do think about it.
> 
> Is that a flaw? I don't really know.


I find it fascinating that you quote your financial position a lot, and your husband is stressed out keeping himself working at this level, and that you don't see the connection between the two.

I am not claiming you don't value a dollar, or are greedy. 

I am suggesting that because it's very important to you, your husband has made it important to himself, as well. Perhaps because he feels like he must.


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## wistful_thinking

Marduk-- 

Thanks. That's a really good point. I never realized that. 

He was always smart and driven, so it's not all my influence. He does seem to be unnecessary stressed, which I don't want to add to. I have told him he can do whatever he wants, but there is so much I want to spend money on (swimming lessons for our son, maintenence for our home, college fund, ect), so that's a mixed signal.


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## FrazzledSadHusband

Are either of you familiar with David Ramsey's radio show or books?

May be time to downsize. 

Mr. Wisteful - I have worked in IT for many years. Management will ALWAYS leave you understaffed. No one ever said on their death bed "I wish I would have worked MORE

Sometimes you have to be willing to walk away.

You may want to read "No More Mr. Nice Guy". The books principles work for employers in addition to personal relationships.

Do you know the order/rank of each others love languages?

Get a sitter, spend the day together talking, spend the night screwing each others brains out. Hold each others naked body and sleep together. Wake up and realize what a gift you are to each other, to be there to help each other thru life's journey.


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## Marc878

I was him for a lot of years.

Why? Trying to make sure the family and for the most part my wife had long term financial security. It's what good husbands do. 

What I learned is you MUST have a life along the way. The world won't end if you have lunch with your wife at least once a week. Take her out on a date once a week. Again, plan the time and do it. What is your marriage and family worth to you??? Is the job more important???? 

You can never get your time/life back once it's gone.

If you're smart you'll both set down and read His Needs, Her Needs together. Marriage, at least good ones take some work. It's a 50/50 split. Both of you own your end.

It's not that hard so make the time and adhere to it. Or be prepared for the consequences.


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## aine

You are relatively young but both of you sound immature, smashing phones and H acting in a very passive aggressive way. This will not get better.

Husband sounds totally stressed, you may be stressing him more as you seem to place high priority on money, he says he is not appreciated for all he does. He may feel resentful that he has to work so hard. Do you ever may comments that others have better houses, etc anything that might deflate him?

Seems to be a complete mismatch in your love languages and how you communicating with one another. I would suggest you read Love languages and His needs Her needs. To see what H's needs are as a start. He may have less time to read at this juncture.
Another great material is Dr Eggerich's Love and Respect. A man needs respect and it sounds like he is not getting it enough hence the passive aggressive responses.
Of course H you need to stop treating your wife the way you do, woman are soft hearted and good willed and will let you away with a lot but there is always a snap line, do not take her love for granted. She needs love and your treatment of her is far from loving.

After you have done all the reading, I would suggest you get some marriage counselling
H you may need some IC to help you bring more balance to your life and handle work stress and family.


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## practitioner

A marriage is not over until it is over, meaning, while you are still functioning as a couple, there is hope. In my practice, I always look at each spouse's family-of-origin. We typically bring patterns of conflict or insecurities into our marriages. The good news is, such patterns can be overcome. A key question is, "what is preventing or blocking emotional connection?" This goes beyond having lunch together. The best thing you can do is find a professional third party who can help you rebuild your relationship. If there is a will on both of your parts, there is a way.

Dr. Ken Newberger
Ph.D., Conflict Analysis and Resolution
HOPE for Stressed Couples - MarriageCounselingAlt.com
Southwest Florida (Fort Myers - Naples)


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## TheTruthHurts

Guys I have a lot of thoughts. Bare with me as I take my kids to soccer etc in our busy weekend. I'll try to post simple items that involve a single thought so you can reflect and respond if you want.

First - H - I am high intensity and worked in public accounting in the day. Now work in IT. I understand your plight. I am now 53 so have learned a few things.

At your age you are skilled at what you do, but are now organizationally prevented from accomplishing what you know you can. That's the source of frustration. I mean you are understaffed or have an idiot boss or incompetent requirements, etc. When you've reached a level of competency THEN these things start to be very noticeable and stand out as your roadblocks. The response is to work harder and harder to push that Boulder up the hill in spite of the obstacles.

Sorry but age and experience are what will help here. What happened s us you learn to accept the constraints and you learn to lower your expectations as to what can be accomplished to a realistic - versus desired and possible - level. If you're good and observe the well respected PMs you will see they get very good at conveying the bad news about timelines and resources in a way that management accepts. 

They convey concern and confidence and see themselves as trying to help the organization versus solving the problem at hand. They convey - sure we can do that by shifting the timeline or adding resources - here are the two option. Or we could defer scope - here are things that seem lower priority.

They don't personally take responsibility for doing too much in too short s time frame - they present the problem and offer a few solutions and basically are nicely firm that those are the options.

Does this make sense? It's shifting from doing and even leading to managing and managing communication and managing upward.

I'm even still working on this...


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## wistful_thinking

My husband, baby daughter and I spent most of the day together today. He took off work, which has been nice. We played raquet ball and then rode bikes. It was nice.

I also slept 11 hours last night and things do seem better. 

To a degree, I think that my husband is going to do whatever he is going to do. He doesn't want to quit his job. He is an expert in his field. I am sure he could be a professor (full-time) or something, he does substitute/adjunct professor now.

However, if he left, he would lose his points towards his pension. He also just doesn't want to. 

I really don't see how we can downsize. Moving to southern Illinois would be crazy. Our brothers and sisters think that $10 a good job and 45k per year is a fortune. Their are no tech jobs there. I would probably make $10 per hour for the same job.


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## TheTruthHurts

Lots of tech work in Chicago for lots of money. Indianapolis probably has good jobs as well. You could find s decent salary / housing match if you tried I suspect.


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## TheTruthHurts

I worked in public accounting when I was young and it was an up or out culture. Nights and weekends were common. 

Did that, along with everyone else, for several years. Then I got an ulcer.

I stopped all weekends cold. And as I was skipping lunch one day, way behind in work and stressed, I wondered... "What if, one year ago today, with all the work I had in front of me, I had taken a lunch break?"

You know what? I had an epiphany. I realized nothing would be different! That one lunch would have changed nothing!

I took a lunch break every day after that.

Never took my ulcer meds.

H should get this perspective. Your marriage will improve with this simple action


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## wistful_thinking

Ok, but how is Chicago better than Atlanta?


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## wistful_thinking

Yes. I agree that taking lunch will help him and our marriage. I think he could have a better work/life balance.


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## TheTruthHurts

wistful_thinking said:


> Ok, but how is Chicago better than Atlanta?


You were saying you couldn't move or you would get paid $10 hour or make $45k. I didn't realize you were setting up a straw man


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## wistful_thinking

Both Atlanta and Chicago are about 350 miles from my hometown.


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## wistful_thinking

Oh--no the point is we could never move back to southern Illinois. There is a college and a VA hospital, but most people work for $10 per hour and are thankful. All the factories and coal mines are barely operating or closed. People talk a lot about how bad everything is, and it is really depressed.

If I was going to move, definitely Chattanooga.


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## TheTruthHurts

I see.

You've talked a lot about money. I can tell you this - money really doesn't matter that much in life.

I left a good paying job over 200k 15 years ago to stop traveling and just be around for my kids. It has made a huge difference in their development into amazing kids - athletic, musical, honors classes, awards, etc. Those weren't the goals but they were the result of happy hard working kids who had both parents available.

Even now I make 25% less than that and put up with a job I'm overqualified for. 

I was lucky enough to watch guys older than me ruin their lives with work. By the time they wanted to spend time with the kids, they were out of HS and frankly resented then. Their spouses were at times supportive, but when their guard was down you could see the resentment.

It's gradual. I get that it's tough when you're young. But you have to be very careful what you are working for otherwise you might get it.

Got a cancer diagnosis 4 years ago and I can honestly say I don't regret staying home all these years. With luck with the drugs in the pipeline I may live to an old age. But if not, I would hate to have wasted those years at the office.


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## wistful_thinking

Money is not important. Well, maybe not, but for everyone who likes living in doors (other than maybe some weird bush people); you have to admit it is handy.


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## TheTruthHurts

wistful_thinking said:


> Money is not important. Well, maybe not, but for everyone who likes living in doors (other than maybe some weird bush people); you have to admit it is handy.


You can respond facetiously if you want, but you are holding your marriage hostage to money. The people I know who do this do it their entire life. Was just talking to my W about her friend who is stressed about money at age 55 STILL but won't sell her house either. So mock if you want -,but don't think this will go away with your attitude about needing more than you have.


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## Bremik

If your husband is that good why not start his own business whether it be consulting or doing something along the lines of what he is doing now? That would allow him to hire people to allow for more family/personal time. Though I realize owning your own business doesn't necessarily mean less stress it does give more control and could even provide a job for you to work along side him.

Everyone puts a different value on what it takes to "live" financially and I think that is influenced by what value you put on your family. It seems to me from what I remember reading he is stressed and not really happy at work and basically the same at home. Both of you seem to agree that you still want to be a family so that would make it seem that the job is the cause of all this. But you are both so focused on the golden egg that you are willing to let things slowly burn away around you? 

There are direct correlations of stress and all ranges of diseases- What value do you put on that? If you and your husband are so stressed you are throwing things than surely your kids are feeling this stress- what value do you put on that? What value do you put on your kids having less quality time with one or both of you now versus time you could have from a less demanding and yes possibly lower paying job? What is your value of happiness? Are you in effect saying you are willing to make money at the expense of being unhappy at your jobs and unhappy at your home life because the job unhappiness follows your there? You are putting less value on less income from a happy job and home life?

I wouldn't have answers for you - it seems you like to research and work with numbers and maybe that's a way for you to evaluate your situation?


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## mindright

The best advice would be marriage counseling and individual therapy for you both. Now while you have a chance.

A couple things:

1. The husband isn't on here airing out his complaints about you. And then telling you about it. Like "I said these terrible things about you and everyone online agreed with me" nonsense. That will really make him feel special.
2. Seems like the husband is getting the brunt of the blame here. Some women will complain about their husband not working and financially providing. Then when the guy does that the woman complains about the guy not doing enough to be around and keep them happy. You can't win.

In my opinion it sounds pretty selfish. Things don't always have to be rosy all the time. As soon as a woman start the "comparison" and "my happiness..." nonsense the marriage probably doomed. But that's ok maybe there are women that would appreciate him.

I guess you are putting the responsibility of your happiness all on him, along with everything else. And now he must change. He must fix it. And there is a timetable that is located secretly inside your head. And his feelings don't matter.

Get into therapy asap. Get off of TAM.


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## wistful_thinking

I felt like I was chasing him for the last year because I tried to follow the directions in Gottman's book and spend more time with him (example: ask him to lunch 2x per week, write him love notes every day and draw him picture, make sure he had all the food he likes, driving him to work and text him ect) but none of that worked, which he knows I told him all this. So after a year (which has really been a lot), I just totally dropped the rope this week. 

We spent the day together on Monday and it was good. We got brunch and played with our baby daughter and I just let him make all the plans and didn't worry about anything, which is my plan.

Spending quality time is one of the first things Gottman's recommends.

I am just too tired to keep giving without getting anything 
back. So I am just giving myself a rest to focus on just me and our children. I have been focusing on just riding my bike 5 miles a day (which is a monthly fitness challenge for my club). I think it is more important to just focus on taking care of myself right now.

I was even able to ride with a friend for 2 hours. It was so freeing. And we even scheduled to do 2x a week yoga together and do more bike rides!

And I think it was even a mistake to try for a year! I should have taken a break after a month, 3 months, 6 months. I just realized that my frustration with my marriage was at fever pitch. And I shouldn't have gone this far, but I am a determined, disciplined person. 

I am not doing anything: texting him, writing notes, calling him, talking to him, arguing with him ect And I am not asking or begging for anything. If he asks me something I just say a one word answer and move on. 

And with taking a break I had more energy to let go of my resentment about being turned down for a year for lunches (I was asking 2x per week). If he wants to schedule something fine, but I just don't want to deal with it right now, which is good because life is too short to be annoyed with him.

I have been getting a lot more sleep because I am not waking everyone up to drive my husband so that he doesn't have to walk. And that means more energy and happier.

Ultimately, I think we can work things out, but I am just at the point where I don't really have anything else to give.


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## mindright

It's your choice. If you love someone, do you do things for them with a quid pro quo expectation for them to do the same things back? Or do you do them because you love that person with no expectations? 

If you have children, do you care for them with the expectations of them doing the same things back? Giving you a bath, doing your laundry, cooking your meals?

Pausing for reflection is good. Checking out from the marriage out of spite and resentment will lead to bad things down the road.

Sorry but it seems like you are really focused on all the negatives and building resentment for all the things you picture he should be doing in your mind's fantasy. Of course he cannot meet your expectations. I doubt he even knows what they are.

You should definitely express things and communicate to him. But you need to learn how to communicate in a way that won't come across as unhappy or nagging or condescending. No one likes to be attacked.

Do you think your husband's goal is to make you unhappy? He is probably just as frustrated and doesn't know what to do about it either.


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## Evinrude58

Key phrases I've noticed that makes me believe you have checked out, and want a divorce:

I'm just taking care of myself.

I, I, I, I.

I just don't want to deal with it right now.

I don't have anything else to give.

If he asks me something I give a one word answer and move on.

You are going on bike rides with a friend. Not long from now, will it include a make friend?

The new male friend will really understand you like your husband never has.......

You seem to have convinced yourself that you've done all you can and are unwilling to do more. 

All I'm saying is that in this mental state, you are ripe for an affair. Don't worry, you'll still get all your husband's money. And it's not your fault, you tried everything and he just wouldn't change....

I'm just saying this to get your attention.
You are right to exercise and find happiness doing things on your own. You are right to do things or cut things out that build resentment.

It's just that your attitude is everything, and this attitude is what worries me. The blame placing. The all about me now, thing.

I am hoping that there is something positive about this man that you can find that you can work with. Something you can do that will enable you to see the good things about him you once saw.

I am not certain you or your husband are doing things that you need to so that build a connection.

What I am absolutely sure of, is that the way you are talking; you are about to be divorced, you're choosing that route, and that 
Your mindset is divorce--- in spite of you saying you think you can work things out. 

I am truly praying for you and hoping your husband will recognize the seriousness of your situation and find a way to help you back into a loving marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## wistful_thinking

I worked yesterday and my husband was being very supportive and said don't worry I will play with the kids.

Then today he bought me flowers at costco. And took the whole family to a nice restaurant. 

He tried to get a nanny, from a nanny share to look after the children. We have high standards for child minders. We will have someone every Saturday night starting February 13th. 

He also wrote me a love letter. And he said he I'd going to try. He said he remembers when we were first married he would walk to the grocery store for me. He would walk a mile carrying food. And he loves me no less now, but he has a lot of responsibilities. 

He also took the kids outside so that I could put away laundry. It's hard with the baby because she always wants to help. 

We also bought THE DIVORCE REMEDY by Weiner-Davis and he said we could read that together. 

He thought Gottman's 7 principals was 1 boring 2 too long 3 a work book and book in one. You get a lot for your money, but it is too much.


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## Hicks

If your husband says he can't go to lunch, you think "He doesn't love me". However that thought is not in your husband's heart. It's really important not to assign the way you feel as his motive. He does love you (this came through in his post), and is working very hard to prove this to you by working hard to provide.

You are on different frequencies. He loves you and proves it by working. You think he doesn't care about you because he doesn't do things for you.

So part of your solution is to understand him better and for him to understand you better and really think about whether he in his heart loves you. Your husband has to understand that working to provide is spending his time and energy in a way that does not make his wife feel loved and cherished.


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## WandaJ

Relationship Teacher said:


> How? Eliminate your expectations. Solved.
> 
> 
> *He probably didn't think he would have to turn you down for lunch*. He made an honest attempt, it just isn't working out as he envisioned. Can you not see the positivity in that?
> A little acceptance from both individuals will go a LONG way.


A HUNDRED times? He could not make a lunch date 100 freaking times? Where do you draw a line between "have no expectations" and "have no respect"?


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## Relationship Teacher

WandaJ said:


> A HUNDRED times? He could not make a lunch date 100 freaking times? Where do you draw a line between "have no expectations" and "have no respect"?


We advise changing people by using indirect force. So it isn't embracing the fact that you wont get what you want, but getting it by alternate means. In other words, we want to get our needs fulfilled without using ultimatums or threats.


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## TheTruthHurts

Relationship Teacher said:


> WandaJ said:
> 
> 
> 
> A HUNDRED times? He could not make a lunch date 100 freaking times? Where do you draw a line between "have no expectations" and "have no respect"?
> 
> 
> 
> We advise changing people by using indirect force. So it isn't embracing the fact that you wont get what you want, but getting it by alternate means. In other words, we want to get our needs fulfilled without using ultimatums or threats.
Click to expand...

Braaaaa hahahaha OMG that's EXACTLY what I was going to say!


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## Lilac23

wistful_thinking said:


> I worked yesterday and my husband was being very supportive and said don't worry I will play with the kids.
> 
> Then today he bought me flowers at costco. And took the whole family to a nice restaurant.
> 
> He tried to get a nanny, from a nanny share to look after the children. We have high standards for child minders. We will have someone every Saturday night starting February 13th.
> 
> He also wrote me a love letter. And he said he I'd going to try. He said he remembers when we were first married he would walk to the grocery store for me. He would walk a mile carrying food. And he loves me no less now, but he has a lot of responsibilities.
> 
> He also took the kids outside so that I could put away laundry. It's hard with the baby because she always wants to help.
> 
> We also bought THE DIVORCE REMEDY by Weiner-Davis and he said we could read that together.
> 
> He thought Gottman's 7 principals was 1 boring 2 too long 3 a work book and book in one. You get a lot for your money, but it is too much.


Do you need work? If your hubs is making that much money, it would seem like you could get by on his income alone. Then weekends could be all family time. Between the two of you, you are working six days a week, not counting the kids. That is exhausting and hard to get couple time or just relax around each other.


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## Blossom Leigh

wistful_thinking said:


> I felt like I was chasing him for the last year because I tried to follow the directions in Gottman's book and spend more time with him (example: ask him to lunch 2x per week, write him love notes every day and draw him picture, make sure he had all the food he likes, driving him to work and text him ect) but none of that worked, which he knows I told him all this. So after a year (which has really been a lot), I just totally dropped the rope this week.
> 
> We spent the day together on Monday and it was good. We got brunch and played with our baby daughter and I just let him make all the plans and didn't worry about anything, which is my plan.
> 
> Spending quality time is one of the first things Gottman's recommends.
> 
> I am just too tired to keep giving without getting anything
> back. So I am just giving myself a rest to focus on just me and our children. I have been focusing on just riding my bike 5 miles a day (which is a monthly fitness challenge for my club). I think it is more important to just focus on taking care of myself right now.
> 
> I was even able to ride with a friend for 2 hours. It was so freeing. And we even scheduled to do 2x a week yoga together and do more bike rides!
> 
> And I think it was even a mistake to try for a year! I should have taken a break after a month, 3 months, 6 months. I just realized that my frustration with my marriage was at fever pitch. And I shouldn't have gone this far, but I am a determined, disciplined person.
> 
> I am not doing anything: texting him, writing notes, calling him, talking to him, arguing with him ect And I am not asking or begging for anything. If he asks me something I just say a one word answer and move on.
> 
> And with taking a break I had more energy to let go of my resentment about being turned down for a year for lunches (I was asking 2x per week). If he wants to schedule something fine, but I just don't want to deal with it right now, which is good because life is too short to be annoyed with him.
> 
> I have been getting a lot more sleep because I am not waking everyone up to drive my husband so that he doesn't have to walk. And that means more energy and happier.
> 
> Ultimately, I think we can work things out, but I am just at the point where I don't really have anything else to give.


I'm not impressed with your attitude towards your husband.


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## TheTruthHurts

For reference W and I worked 50-60 hour weeks plus 1-1/2 hour daily commutes until we were 36 when we first got pregnant. Routinely worked until 10 pm so may be under estimating hours. Talked on the phone several times a day and collapsed in each other's arms at night. Often layed on a blanket in the back yard watching stars over a bottle of wine. Worked hard and moved up.

Now 33 years after meeting have many kids, house with low debt, close to 7 figures in the bank and a crazy amount of college expenses coming for 5 kids. Hard work but common goals and very tight relationship.

The work is a red herring. What is your personal connection? What are your common goals?


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## wistful_thinking

Hicks--

Thanks for your thoughtful answer. I know that he loves me, and I love him deeply. 

I thought that he would slow down a lot more at some point, but it seems like he has been working harder and harder, each year. 

I know that he works hard because he loves his family, and at the same time spending time with me means so much to me, which he is doing. He has been trying to get home at 6 and he hired another employee (who hasn't started yet), and is trying to get one of his friends he worked with in the past to move to Atlanta, which seems like it will work.


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## wistful_thinking

Lilac--

I don't have to work, but it gives me a chance to get a rest from being at home. It's nice to get out and be a person outside of having a baby and multiple bags stuck to me, and an 8 year old constantly ask me questions. 

And it gives my husband a chance to have time with the kids where they are not focused on just me.


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## wistful_thinking

WandaJ

I know right I was so hurt by this at the time. When we were first married he would always make time for me.


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## wistful_thinking

Relationship teacher--

I agree. This is in the Weiner-Davis book too. If what you are doing doesn't work, then try something else. I also, don't think that intimidation, threats ect are a good way to have a relationship.


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## turnera

Couple of thoughts. First, see if you can find him a business coach to go to for an hour or two of advice. He has a lot of stress seemingly from an inability to say no at work. A coach can help him find ways to make his work more manageable; the new employee will help, but he still needs to learn to step back.

Second, please don't let this babysitter you have lined up get put on the back burner. It's really hard to stay in love if you aren't spending at least 10 to 15 hours a week together as a COUPLE, away from the kids/chores/work/etc. Spending that time reinforces the chemicals (love) in our bodies, and you have to keep replenishing it. 

Third, even if he has some reason to back out on the date, you should go anyway. USE that babysitter. This is part of what women often forget - not putting themselves last. If YOU respect yourself and have standards of treatment, HE will respect you.


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## wistful_thinking

Thanks Tunera you are wise. 

I was trying to spend time with him. Especially, since our baby was born because our life was becoming too hectic.


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## turnera

Have you read His Needs Her Needs?


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## wistful_thinking

Tunera--

No, and to be completely honest, I can tell it's not for me.


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## Blossom Leigh

That's an interesting response... why do you feel its not for you?


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## wistful_thinking

I have finished the Weiner-Davis book. We were able to get a babysitter tonight and went to a really great restaurant. 

My husband has chess on Friday nights. 

I told him I will feel disappointed if he goes because even though he got home at 6 every night, we had had no chance to spend time discussing things all week. We did play board games and catch up on the big bang theory and discuss the Weiner-Davis book (briefly).

I would have normally just said nothing because I don't want to force him nag him. And because I felt that I shouldn't keep begging him to spend time together. 

I don't feel sorry for him because I know chess is important to him, but we just don't have time for it. 

So I do feel happier now that we at least spent 4 hours being adults and not having children to care for.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

wistful_thinking said:


> I have finished the Weiner-Davis book. We were able to get a babysitter tonight and went to a really great restaurant.
> 
> My husband has chess on Friday nights.
> 
> I told him I will feel disappointed if he goes because even though he got home at 6 every night, we had had no chance to spend time discussing things all week. We did play board games and catch up on the big bang theory and discuss the Weiner-Davis book (briefly).
> 
> I would have normally just said nothing because I don't want to force him nag him. And because I felt that I shouldn't keep begging him to spend time together.
> 
> I don't feel sorry for him because I know chess is important to him, but we just don't have time for it.
> 
> So I do feel happier now that we at least spent 4 hours being adults and not having children to care for.


Would it have been ok to go to dinner tonight/Saturday and discuss the weeks issues today?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

@wistful_thinking I do not believe you want to fix this because you shut out the people on here who challenge your position. If you were *truly* interested in *fixing this* instead of just wanting your husband to just do it your way, you would be open to all posters here commenting on your situation. I encourage you to drop the guard and be open to fixing things on both sides and not just on his side and its going to take listening to perspectives on both you and your husband, not just your husband.


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> @wistful_thinking I do not believe you want to fix this because you shut out the people on here who challenge your position. If you were *truly* interested in *fixing this* instead of just wanting your husband to just do it your way, you would be open to all posters here commenting on your situation. I encourage you to drop the guard and be open to fixing things on both sides and not just on his side and its going to take listening to perspectives on both you and your husband, not just your husband.


Maybe you could give her a specific suggestion?


----------



## header

wistful_thinking said:


> Ok. Let's take this offline?


Why did you need to post that, why not just ask him directly?

If you guys start cybering, I'm out. I mean I'm in. Actually I'm not sure what I'll do.


----------



## MRR

my quick, off the cuff, take is that OP puts a heck of a lot of pressure on her husband.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> Maybe you could give her a specific suggestion?


There are a few things I see....


She's not happy *until* her husband *does xyz* fill in the bank. This is unbalanced and unreasonable. Fix? Realize he is not designed nor required to carry her entire emotional weight. Pushing for it can crush this relationship.

She is dismissive of his personal time will other males. I encourage them both to have *others* time. Closing him off to other support systems will only cause their relationship to implode. Giving her the exact opposite of what she is wanting.

She is inflexible in her wants. If she doesn't get it the way her self designed expectation is dictating, she labels his effort as unloving when it might not be. To me, that sounds like an old tape from her past that needs to be resolved before it creates damage to this relationship.

Are those specific enough


----------



## wistful_thinking

I don't respond to snarky comments because I am not interested in arguing; I don't see how that will help. I tried to explain that moving wasn't an option right now and my husband and I agree on that and people kept suggesting it (and arguing it ad nauseum) so I gave up. 

I have tried to be as honest as to what I am thinking as possible. 

It wasn't possible to do the date night on Saturday because Friday was the parents night out. They had openings for our kids and we were lucky to get that. 

My husband loves to play chess and he loves going to church I prefer going to the gym. He has not gotten to do either in a month, and I do feel sorry for him, however, I don't think it's my fault. 

I think that he needs those things. On the other hand, we need more 1:1 time. I also think we need to focus on our kids before 7pm every day. I feel like we have a responsibility to give our kids lots of love and attention. 

I don't know what is meant by I am on the wrong tape. 

It seemed like before our baby daughter our relationship was thriving. We both wanted a second child. We already knew they were a lot of work, but there is no way to fit everything in now (parenting time, personal time, friends time and couple time).

The only thing I remember my husband complaining about me is I am not very appreciative towards him. I wrote him thank you/love notes, but then he said that my complaints canceled them out, so I just gave up. 

I tried to only worry about myself and our children and that worked well, however, we both missed spending time together. 

I'm not really sure what else I can learn here, I thought maybe someone else would have been there done that to tell me how they pushed through that rough time.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

wistful_thinking said:


> I don't respond to snarky comments because I am not interested in arguing; I don't see how that will help. I tried to explain that moving wasn't an option right now and my husband and I agree on that and people kept suggesting it (and arguing it ad nauseum) so I gave up.
> 
> I have tried to be as honest as to what I am thinking as possible.
> 
> It wasn't possible to do the date night on Saturday because Friday was the parents night out. They had openings for our kids and we were lucky to get that.
> 
> My husband loves to play chess and he loves going to church I prefer going to the gym. He has not gotten to do either in a month, and I do feel sorry for him, however, I don't think it's my fault.
> 
> I think that he needs those things. On the other hand, we need more 1:1 time. I also think we need to focus on our kids before 7pm every day. I feel like we have a responsibility to give our kids lots of love and attention.
> 
> I don't know what is meant by I am on the wrong tape.
> 
> It seemed like before our baby daughter our relationship was thriving. We both wanted a second child. We already knew they were a lot of work, but there is no way to fit everything in now (parenting time, personal time, friends time and couple time).
> 
> The only thing I remember my husband complaining about me is I am not very appreciative towards him. I wrote him thank you/love notes, but then he said that my complaints canceled them out, so I just gave up.
> 
> I tried to only worry about myself and our children and that worked well, however, we both missed spending time together.
> 
> I'm not really sure what else I can learn here, I thought maybe someone else would have been there done that to tell me how they pushed through that rough time.


Part of learning is choosing to be open.

I've overcome some extreme situations.

If you are willing to be open, I am willing to teach.


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> Part of learning is choosing to be open.
> 
> I've overcome some extreme situations.
> 
> If you are willing to be open, I am willing to teach.


Blossom, it might help if you give her some examples of mistakes you have made, and how you have learned from them.

Just an idea.


----------



## Duguesclin

wistful_thinking said:


> I don't respond to snarky comments because I am not interested in arguing; I don't see how that will help. I tried to explain that moving wasn't an option right now and my husband and I agree on that and people kept suggesting it (and arguing it ad nauseum) so I gave up.
> 
> You are totally correct. You know what you want and this is great.
> 
> I have tried to be as honest as to what I am thinking as possible.
> 
> Please, keep doing it. This is the best thing you can do for your husband.
> 
> It wasn't possible to do the date night on Saturday because Friday was the parents night out. They had openings for our kids and we were lucky to get that.
> 
> My husband loves to play chess and he loves going to church I prefer going to the gym. He has not gotten to do either in a month, and I do feel sorry for him, however, I don't think it's my fault.
> 
> It is all a matter of priorities. Your husband has issues with them. He needs to learn how to set them.
> 
> I love cycling. But when I married my wife, I knew that I had to put it on the back burner. Last year 2 of my kids agreed to start bicycle races. I was thrilled. Now I get to enjoy it with them. But I had to wait. Your husband can wait with chess or he can take it during his work time.
> 
> I think that he needs those things. On the other hand, we need more 1:1 time. I also think we need to focus on our kids before 7pm every day. I feel like we have a responsibility to give our kids lots of love and attention.
> 
> Agreed, but kids can wait too. You stay at home, it is already a great benefit for them. Your kids will be fine.
> 
> I don't know what is meant by I am on the wrong tape.
> 
> It seemed like before our baby daughter our relationship was thriving. We both wanted a second child. We already knew they were a lot of work, but there is no way to fit everything in now (parenting time, personal time, friends time and couple time).
> 
> The only thing I remember my husband complaining about me is I am not very appreciative towards him. I wrote him thank you/love notes, but then he said that my complaints canceled them out, so I just gave up.
> 
> He should get used to it.
> 
> I tried to only worry about myself and our children and that worked well, however, we both missed spending time together.
> 
> I'm not really sure what else I can learn here, I thought maybe someone else would have been there done that to tell me how they pushed through that rough time.
> 
> You are doing the right thing by being transparent and honest. Keep doing it.


----------



## Duguesclin

Wistful, your husband has huge time management issues. He needs to work on it. Has he ever wondered what would happen to his company if he could not go to work? 

I am sure they will be fine. On Monday he can take you for lunch.


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## TheTruthHurts

I agree with blossom BTW.

You really sound self focused when you talked about sending notes and cards, then something happened or was said, then you "gave up". WTH you never "give up" anything in a marriage. You listen, reflect, adapt. You never "give up" unless you are giving up the marriage. Otherwise it is selfish and childish and not really something someone does to someone they love.

You sent the cards to meet a need he explicitly told you he had. How have you listened and adapted and how do you NOW meet that exact same need.

Sounds like cards and notes should be back on the table, and other adjustments to avoid negating then through your actions

That's what blossom is talking about - stop giving up on advice and posters and your husband so easily.

Otherwise the other developments are positive here.


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## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> Blossom, it might help if you give her some examples of mistakes you have made, and how you have learned from them.
> 
> Just an idea.


I'm going to follow my gut on this one and wait until she is more open. 

I have other's I'm helping that are open now. 

I'll be back when she softens to a wide array of help.


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## wistful_thinking

Dug-- Thanks, I really do think that he is trying to improve; and he is a good man and a good dad. The bottom line is he has to work for our family to live, which I do appreciate. On the other hand, it doesn't feel great having to force him to spend time with me. 

Blossom--I can look for other people's stories, thanks.

The truth--I will start writing notes again, especially because he said he did miss them, however, I would have to be crazy to keep doing things that don't work. 

We all have a limited time on this earth, and it's our job to do the best we can.


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## Blossom Leigh

Your loss.

Moving on.

Won't be back.


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## wistful_thinking

Blossom-- I am confused because I meant I can just click on your name and see other people's stories and what you said. I think you misunderstood me.


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## farsidejunky

wistful_thinking said:


> I don't respond to snarky comments because I am not interested in arguing; I don't see how that will help. I tried to explain that moving wasn't an option right now and my husband and I agree on that and people kept suggesting it (and arguing it ad nauseum) so I gave up.
> 
> I have tried to be as honest as to what I am thinking as possible.
> 
> It wasn't possible to do the date night on Saturday because Friday was the parents night out. They had openings for our kids and we were lucky to get that.
> 
> My husband loves to play chess and he loves going to church I prefer going to the gym. He has not gotten to do either in a month, and I do feel sorry for him, however, I don't think it's my fault.
> 
> I think that he needs those things. On the other hand, we need more 1:1 time. I also think we need to focus on our kids before 7pm every day. I feel like we have a responsibility to give our kids lots of love and attention.
> 
> I don't know what is meant by I am on the wrong tape.
> 
> It seemed like before our baby daughter our relationship was thriving. We both wanted a second child. We already knew they were a lot of work, but there is no way to fit everything in now (parenting time, personal time, friends time and couple time).
> 
> The only thing I remember my husband complaining about me is I am not very appreciative towards him. I wrote him thank you/love notes, but then he said that my complaints canceled them out, so I just gave up.
> 
> I tried to only worry about myself and our children and that worked well, however, we both missed spending time together.
> 
> I'm not really sure what else I can learn here, I thought maybe someone else would have been there done that to tell me how they pushed through that rough time.


Honest question:

Have you always been this controlling?

You think your husband deserves certain things, but then you make the rationalization that your needs are more important, so he must not need said things. You are making that decision for him.

Which is it?

You BOTH need work. Him for standing up at work and to you, plus time management, and you for carrying your own emotional burdens as well as focusing on controlling less.

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## farsidejunky

Mr. Wistful:

Get the book Hold On To Your N.U.T's by Wayne Levine. Contrary to the title, it is not an "f u" book to women, but rather a book on living a principle centered life. It will help you tremendously with your prioritization of things in life.

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## jld

OP, my husband is Duguesclin. He thinks honesty in a wife is a very important thing, as it makes the husband's life simpler. He does not have to guess what she is thinking or feeling.

It sounds like you tried for a long time to improve the marriage. It sounds like you felt discouraged when your efforts did not seem to pay off. You seem to be looking to your husband to see what he can do to improve things now.

I think that is good. Way too often I have seen wives do most of the marriage support. The husband just coasts along.

My husband is gone for work a lot, and has no shortage of interests even when he is home. So I know what it feels like to be neglected. 

It is easy for people to say, "Just go get some interests of your own, and don't bother him. Just be grateful he is earning money for you." But you know that will not build a strong marriage. 

Bottom line, he needs to make the marriage a priority. Work and kids are competing, and important, interests. Chess is not. 

Keep communicating with him. Keep sharing your heart with him. Be transparent.

I am concerned that he has threatened to leave you. My husband has never done anything like that, never thought anything like that, so I can only imagine how disconcerting that must be. That would shake my trust in a man to the core.

Is that part of why you keep your job? That a part of you does not feel you can truly trust him, that he will place his feelings above his commitment to the marriage?
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## farsidejunky

One more thing I think is critical, Wistful. Be careful of zero sum thinking. In other words, don't insist on your husband losing in order for you to win. 

There is a win/win in this for both of you if you are willing to compromise. But are you willing?

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## wistful_thinking

Far side junky-- What would you do if you were me?

Jdl--exactly.


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## wistful_thinking

Far side junky--of course I don't think it's a zero sum game is think my husband should want to spend time with me.


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## farsidejunky

wistful_thinking said:


> Far side junky-- What would you do if you were me?


A marriage dynamic is created by two people. Your dynamic is broken at the moment. Do I think your husband needs to do work? Absolutely. But I also see you standing there waiting for him to fix it. So my advice to you would be to ask yourself the following question:

What am I doing to contribute to the brokenness of our dynamic?



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## farsidejunky

wistful_thinking said:


> Far side junky--of course I don't think it's a zero sum game is think my husband should want to spend time with me.


Interesting again that you frame your statement as if you are still trying to get him to fix it.

This is EXACTLY what I am talking about. In the meantime, what are YOU going to work on?

Blossom Leigh I think was alluding to the same thing I am. Time to put on the big girl panties, Wistful.

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## Lila

@wistful_thinking. Is your love language Quality Time? I ask because your situation sounds similar to mine. My husband has a knack for not making me a top priority. It almost caused the demise of our marriage a few years ago. The divorce papers were being drawn up when he had his eureka moment and started making me a priority. 

Here's what I learned that helped me to address this issue. 

1) The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. 

2) You can't force others to change. You can only change yourself and hope it inspires change in others. 

3) Your strengths and break points will determine plan of action. There are some people who can carry the majority of the emotional load in a relationship. I cannot. 

My husband saw the light when I did a 180. I stopped doing things that were not netting me positive results. I started doing things that brought me happiness and removed those that didn't. I encourage you to do the same. Find something you're passionate about and do it. If he doesn't want to spend time with you, don't get angry, instead choose to spend time with friends and family. Set some goals (whether planning for a fancy vacation, running for local office, participating in a fitness competition, whatever is exciting, challenging, or fun) and work towards reaching them. Continue to be a great wife and mother but find your own happiness independent of your spouse. He will either get on board with the plan or he won't but at least you won't be dependant on him to bring you happiness.

Word of caution about the 180. You may end up emotionally detaching from your spouse, especially if he fails to recognize the changes. I was almost detached when my husband figured out he had to make me a priority or risk losing me. Little does he know that I had already hired lawyers and he was weeks if not days from being served.


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## wistful_thinking

Farside--What would you do if you were me? 

I do feel pathetic to ask him to spend time with me; he said no to lunch with me and if I asked him again and he said no I think I would be angry. 

Lila-- I just did the quiz on love languages and quality time was #1 and acts of service #2. I am glad that things worked out for you.


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## farsidejunky

Wistful, I asked you to answer a specific question, to which you answered with a repeat of your same question.

It is certainly easy to listen to those who sympathize with you. Harder yet is to answer the tough questions, as that requires you to grow.

I hope you and your husband work it out, but I find it unlikely given your unwillingness to even answer a simple question about what you MIGHT be doing wrong.

Good luck.

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## wistful_thinking

Farside what did I do wrong? 

Ask my husband to lunch. That was a mistake to do so ceaselessly. 

Broke my phone. 

Tried the same things for a year with no results. 

I don't see how I am controlling. All I did was state what I wanted. Do you think I should stop that? Maybe I should. I don't really know.


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## farsidejunky

wistful_thinking said:


> Farside what did I do wrong?
> 
> Ask my husband to lunch. That was a mistake to do so ceaselessly.
> 
> Broke my phone.
> 
> Tried the same things for a year with no results.
> 
> I don't see how I am controlling. All I did was state what I wanted. Do you think I should stop that? Maybe I should. I don't really know.


Do you not see any part you are contributing? 

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## Lila

wistful_thinking said:


> Lila-- I just did the quiz on love languages and quality time was #1 and acts of service #2. I am glad that things worked out for you.


I figured you were Quality Time from your posts. 

Some questions to ask yourself are

1. Is what I'm doing working? 

2. Am I willing to do what it takes to become emotionally independent of my husband and accept the consequences, good or bad? 

3. How can I become a better person? Am I willing to do that? 

4. Am I comfortable carrying the emotional load in the relationship, meaning are you comfortable being solely responsible for keeping the marriage together on an intimate and emotional level? 

How you answer those questions will determine your action plan.


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## Lila

turnera said:


> Have you read His Needs Her Needs?





wistful_thinking said:


> Tunera--
> 
> No, and to be completely honest, I can tell it's not for me.


Oh, and I HIGHLY recommend you read this book. Get your husband to read it as well. It was instrumental in helping my marriage.


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## wistful_thinking

Farside-- that was a list of what I have done wrong.


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## farsidejunky

I want to stop at your emphasis on money. It is totally understandable why you fixate on it, given your background. 

However, do you believe that puts additional pressure to perform on your husband?

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## Lila

One more thing. .....

One of the things that really helped me was to read through those threads on TAM started by men whose wives deprioritize them. There are tons of them here. These are guys who pretty much have tried everything but their wives still don't get it. 

I followed much of the advice that was given to them, particularly doing the 180, and it worked for me. I figured that if it worked for the goose it would work for the gander.

Might want to start there, get some ideas, and propose them on this thread for feedback.


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## wistful_thinking

Ok lila I'll read the book.


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## Lila

farsidejunky said:


> A marriage dynamic is created by two people. Your dynamic is broken at the moment. Do I think your husband needs to do work? Absolutely. But I also see you standing there waiting for him to fix it. So my advice to you would be to ask yourself the following question:
> 
> What am I doing to contribute to the brokenness of our dynamic?
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Farside, your comment to the OP got me thinking about my own situation with my husband. I asked myself the question "what was I doing to contribute to the brokenness of our dynamic?" and the answer was really simple.....I was letting my husband take me for granted. 

See, my husband prioritizes things based on critical status. If it isn't at critical mass then he pushes it down his list. So me, being the laid back, independent person that I am, would rarely make a fuss. I would just let it roll off my back even when his responses bothered me. We would discuss my feelings but they were always in a calm "I feel" sort of way. But because I was never critical mass, he'd give me some b.s. excuse and i was put back to the end on his priority's list. 

What's worse is that I was willing to drop existing plans with others at the drop of a hat whenever he deemed it was time to focus attention on me. Frankly, I was pathetic. 

So yeah, I contributed to the dynamic in my marriage by not giving myself enough worth in the relationship. His eyes opened when I stopped focusing so much on him (and my expectations of him), and started focusing more on me (and my awesomeness). . 

Not sure if this is OP's dynamic but cleaning up one's side of the street can be everything from correcting bad behaviors towards a partner to correcting behaviors in oneself that do not net positive results.


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## Duguesclin

farsidejunky said:


> I want to stop at your emphasis on money. It is totally understandable why you fixate on it, given your background.
> 
> However, do you believe that puts additional pressure to perform on your husband?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Why should Wistful take upon herself to protect her husband from money consideration? What kind of additional pressure are we talking about? Is it money pressure or simply pressure to not see his wife disappointed? Why does she need to silence her worries?

On the contrary, she is right to express herself. It is very healthy. I like what Lila is suggesting. It would be very good if Wistful would find her own happiness. However there is a major difference from Lila situation. Wistful is home and dependent on her husband's job.

So honestly, I am not sure what else Wistful can do other than making very clear her needs. She needs to know quickly if her husband can rise to the situation.

The money is probably the least of the concerns. Time management on the husband part is what needs urgent fixing.


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## turnera

wistful_thinking said:


> Farside what did I do wrong?
> 
> Ask my husband to lunch. That was a mistake to do so ceaselessly.
> 
> Broke my phone.
> 
> Tried the same things for a year with no results.
> 
> I don't see how I am controlling. All I did was state what I wanted. Do you think I should stop that? Maybe I should. I don't really know.


I don't see you putting much effort into understanding WHY your H is saying no to lunches. WHY he isn't prioritizing you. You just want him fixed. Well, you can't make him do anything. But you CAN change YOU so that he WANTS to be around you. Have you asked HIM what he would like done differently?


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## wistful_thinking

Tunera-- yes I have asked him and he says that his job was asking him to do so much because of being short staffed.


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## farsidejunky

Sorry I have been absent after stirring up a hornets nest. I have been sick with a sinus infection and slept most of yesterday.

Lila: That is a great example.

Dug: Wistful does need to express herself. But she also needs to be sensitive to her husband as well. She can ignore this, if she chooses to, at the peril of her marriage. He is clearly under tremendous pressure, and not everyone deals with said pressure as well as you.

Wistful: Turnera nailed my point perfectly. You are controlling by trying to change him, while being unwilling to change yourself. I would point you to Lila as an example of being willing to change to instigate change.



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## turnera

wistful_thinking said:


> Tunera-- yes I have asked him and he says that his job was asking him to do so much because of being short staffed.


What does that have to do with YOU? I said to ask him what he would have YOU do differently. Ask him what an ideal marriage would look like.


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## nursejackie

You know your needs- but you don't know what your husbands are -or how to meet them.
If you can figure out what his needs are and fulfill them as well as communicate your needs maybe the two of you will start to feel less resentment towards each other.

Read "HNHN" even if it isn't for you- also read "Codependent No More".
They will both help you understand why you are where you are and how to fix your behaviour (which hopefully will fix his)
Give up the control. You really can't make him change, but you can change yourself so that he wants to change.

Bit of psycho babble but I hope you get the gist…..its what most everyone else is saying as well


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## TheTruthHurts

I picked up HNHN at the library and scanned it and it was a very easy read. It will explain what you need in a way he will finally understand. It will explain to you what he needs in a way you will understand.

It's a translation tool between men and women - that's all. You'll say "of course, that's what I meant - this is obvious" AND HE'LL SAY THE SANE THING.

But you and he will go "huh? Is that REALLY what you meant?"

You can then refer back to it when mundane things come up like life - "hey spouse this isn't a small thing it's one of those needs we read about"


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## wistful_thinking

Tunera--I asked him why he doesn't want to eat lunch with me 4 weeks ago, and he was offended that I said he doesn't want to because he does want to, however, he was prevented by his work. He said to not say hello doesn't want to because that is a lie.


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## wistful_thinking

Tunera--to get to your point, I am sure that I am not perfect. And I have to look inside myself a small find what I need to change, and do it. 

I have been listening to Love & Respect with him and we spent a couple hours holding eachother last night. 

I can see it was wrong, in the past in a lot of ways. Like I would say let's relax after all the work is done, which at some point the work was never done.

I was not adventuresome, anymore. When we were dating and such we went to a lot of shows because our University offered cheap/free tickets to students, so we went to every show, which was a couple times a month. 

We would also stay up late into the night playing boardgames. 

So I was not fun anymore. I did fun things with the kids or as a family, but not as a couple. 

In some ways in feel like it was necessary to change. I got pregnant and gave birth a few days after my 24th birthday. At the time my husband was finishing grad school at the U of I. We had to exert ourselves to create a life suitable to our children. We also had no outside help. 

I also could have tried to understand things from his point of view more. For instance, understanding how difficult the last year was for him because he had to work so much. And felt like it was his only option. 

If my husband complained about me (not recently, 8 years ago), I would be difficult. For instance, tell him it was his fault, which is why I don't get a straight answer when I say what do you want me to change about me.


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## wistful_thinking

Nurse Jackie--Thanks I looked at codependent no more and I think the meditations would be great for me. I have always wanted to get more into yoga, I am bad at it, but I need to work at it, and I have always enjoyed meditation.


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## wistful_thinking

The truth hurts--great.


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## Blossom Leigh

lol.... its ok... we've all walked that path.

Makes you miserable first, but great things come of that.


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## turnera

His Needs Her Needs gives you actual worksheets to fill out, to get to know each other better, and basically gives you homework to do, to start changing the dynamics of the marriage. 

For instance, if you read HNHN, you'll learn about his top Emotional Needs, and you need to know that because it should be YOU who MEETS those top ENs. That's how you stay happily married. And if you're meeting HIS needs, he'll be happier, and will then want to meet YOUR needs. 

Men's top 3 ENs are usually sex, recreating (having fun with you), and admiration. I suspect you have been severely missing out on showing him admiration. And there are many many ways you could be fixing that - brag about him to your friends or your parents, send him love notes, fix his favorite food, send him a card that talks about the great ways he takes care of you (Valentines Day is coming up), tell the kids what a great dad they have, buy him something special you know he wants but won't get because he puts you guys first, throw a party for him...you get the idea. I suspect if you just work on that one thing, you'll see a change.


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## jld

I think most people are asking you to be the leader in your marriage. Your husband can't do it. If he could, he never would have threatened to leave you.

I don't know how a woman would ever get over hearing that, personally.


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## wistful_thinking

Jdl--I acknowledge that hurt me a lot, but if I want to stay married, then I have to get over that pain, and I have already let go of the bitterness from it. I love him so much.


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## rachaelm

wistful_thinking said:


> Jdl--I acknowledge that hurt me a lot, but if I want to stay married, then I have to get over that pain, and I have already let go of the bitterness from it. I love him so much.


Is your husband still reading? If so, maybe you can get him to chime in on what his exact issues are with you and the marriage. I saw his post where he basically just says he loves and doesn't want to lose you but that's almost a run around response. This could be the make or break stage of your marriage but you cannot fix it alone. He sounds passive aggressive to me. Does any of this fit? Dealing with a Passive-Aggressive Partner | Psych Central

I think you have several choices.

1. You can 'do you' and detach from him but that is probably not very healthy for the marriage.

2. You can put aside your own needs, give all and be disappointed frequently.

3. You can find a happy medium, where you are trying to meet his needs, but not at a detriment to yourself. You can give him the benefit of the doubt and realize he is struggling too and not perfect. Sometimes when we work harder to meet our partner's needs, they notice and start to work on meeting ours. 

4. You can leave but realize every relationship you get into is going to have its own issues. He will still be part of your life for the rest of your life because you have children together. For people who don't even want to leave the kids with a sitter, can you imagine raising them with someone who isn't their biological parent?

I think there are deeper issues at play here than just your husband not spending enough time with you. What was your childhood like, was your dad around much? What was your husband's childhood like, was his dad gone working a lot? Our past determines our future, especially if we are not self aware enough to understand how parental dynamics influence us.


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## rachaelm

mr wistful said:


> This is wistful_thinkings husband. I created a new account because I accidentally had my contact information displayed.
> 
> Thank You for writing that you wrote. It means allot to you that you appreciate how hard I work. I am not unhappy. I promise you that I am very happy to have you as a wife. I need you do a better job of showing you that. I love you more then anything.
> 
> I realize I haven't been the best husband in the world at times, and for that I am truly sorry. I lost sight of what is important. You and our children are important. The only way I would be unhappy is if I lost you.
> 
> I want nothing more then to push through this, and show you what you mean to me. Don't worry about your phone. It's just a phone. It can and already has been replaced. You and our children cannot be replaced. That is where I want to focusI am the husband in this situation


This is very sweet but it doesn't really matter what you say, it matters what you do. Millions of people have had someone say 'i love you and i am going to change' but 3 days later they are back to their old habits. Love is a decision that you make everyday by your deeds and actions. It's not thinking, I changed the baby's diaper and did the dishes three days ago so now I"m good for a week. And I am not saying you are doing that, it's just an example. You have to find a way to connect with each other every day, even if it's just for a few minutes. You probably think that all the time you spend working is showing your love and devotion for the family, it's your contribution. And it is! But it's not enough to sustain the marriage, you still have to 'put time' in the relationship.



mr wistful said:


> @Blondilocks. You asked me to get on and explain my actions. That is fair
> 
> I am a Senior Applications Developer for a respectable company.
> 
> For years my team has been understaffed. A few years ago we had 3 full time developers and 3 contractors to do all of our developing work, including myself. Now we have 1, and we have more work. I am all that is left frantically trying to do all the work that should be handled by at least 3 people.
> 
> I honestly want to eat lunch with my wife. It's just that something always seemed to come up, and make it so that I couldn't get away. I feel horrible that I had to turn her down do many times. I love my wife and kids more then anything, and I am ashamed with myself that I let things get to this point.
> 
> I should have just said from the beginning that I couldn't eat lunch with her instead of turning her down so many times. It was just that I wanted to eat lunch with her, and was trying to make an effort. I have taken about 10 lunch breaks in about 3 years other then that I stay at my desk trying to keep things afloat. I am not trying to make excuses here. Nothing excuses my actions. I just wanted to explain my actions and choices.
> 
> The next logical question is why do I stay and put up with all of this. Simply put it is the best way to keep our finances in order. We moved from Illinois almost five years ago, and until recently we had a mortgage from Illinois along with our current mortgage. I was waiting for the housing market to improve to sell the other house, and finally about six months ago decided it wasn't going to improve. I had to borrow 25K to finally sell it, which I am now trying to pay back. I also worked a second job until about a year ago just trying to keep the family clothed fed, and provided for.


Your wife says that your house is almost paid off and you have over 200k in retirement, you are what mid-30's? It does not sound like you are in a desperate financial position? Are there jobs that are comparable to what you are making now that would allow you more family time? 



mr wistful said:


> As far as slamming things around while my wife was trying to sleep that was an accident. My wife said she wanted to do something with the family after she got off work the next day, and if I was going to have the kids in the morning there would not be a chance to take a shower the next day. I was trying to quietly take a shower so that when she got done with work I would be ready to do what she wanted to do. Stealth I'd not one of my strong points and it backfired, that is muy fault


Were you really trying to be quiet or were you passively aggressively trying to show your anger because she was telling you what to do like you're a two year old? Be honest with yourself, if nothing else. 



mr wistful said:


> As far as answering questions with questions. This Is something I have always done, my parents biggest complaint growing up was that no one could get a straight answer out of me. I will be the first to admit I am a horrible listener. This has to change I know that


Communication is a huge deal in relationships, both of you need to be able to share your feelings with each other and not be badgered into explaining every minute detail. Are you actually not listening or do you feel hemmed in by questions and don't want to commit to anything that could be used against you later? I tune out all the time when people are talking and it's usually because it's something I've heard before, something I want to avoid discussing because it's just going to lead to more questions, something I'm not interested in, it could perhaps lead to an opportunity for someone to nag me about something or I'm just tired and don't want to talk about it, I just want to relax. Do any of these ring a bell with you? It's kind of a cop out to just say, I'm a bad listener, there is more to it than that and you need to know yourself and the reasons why you do it before you can fix it.





mr wistful said:


> I am not trying to make excuses, I just want to explain myself. Things are finally starting to slow down at work, we are trying to hire more people, and that has started to free me up a bit. I want to make things right.


I had an interesting (or not) discussion one time about reasons are basically excuses. If you look them up in the Thesaurus, they can actually be used interchangeably. 



mr wistful said:


> My wife is one of the hardest workers I have ever met, and her complaints are valid. I feel that she needs more sleep, and more time to relax.
> 
> The only way I know to give her more sleep is for me to walk each morning to the park and ride each morning so that she can get more sleep, since I don't have a license do to medical issues this seems like the best option.


This also seems a little passive aggressive to me, the only way you can give her more sleep is to walk to the bus and because of your medical issues, which of course you can't do anything about, this is the only way? Why is this the only way? Why don't you put the kids to bed on your own sometimes so she can go to bed early? Why don't you get up with them on your own on Sundays and let her sleep in? Arrange to carpool with someone to the park and ride? There are a lot of options but sometimes we just don't see them.



mr wistful said:


> I am trying to help more around the house with the cleaning, and the kids when I get home to take the pressures off her a bit. I feel that she had been tired in the evenings, and that doing this will help her not feel so tired and increase our quality time together.
> 
> I realize at the end of the day I get home my job is done for the day. Hers does not stop until after the kids go to bed, and I feel it's my responsibility to start helping her with that.


Totally true and commendable that you realize that. You are a team and sometimes an 'us against the kids' attitude can be fun, not that you are actually against the kids but who else can you laugh with and share details with about them that will understand? Your wife!



mr wistful said:


> Also I am trying to get a day off next week so that we can spend am uninterrupted day together. I know this won't solve everything, but it's s start


It wont really solve anything, one day does not a marriage make, what about getting done at noon one day every two weeks, or a full planned day off once a month? How late do you get home on a normal day, with commute?

What are some of your issues with the marriage? What do you need that you aren't getting? Have you told your wife these things?

You should look up 'walkaway wife' as a way to possibly motivate you. Your wife is telling you right now that she loves you but she's not happy and she's about ready to quit trying, that is a very dangerous place to be in. You must make some drastic changes or else that ambivalence will turn into detachment then dislike. The fact that you've only posted once doesn't really speak well to your enduring commitment to change, either.

This is not all your fault, you just got busy with life and work. But now that you know the state of things, it can become your fault if you don't start working on it. Your wife shares the blame too, but if you aren't honest with her about things you need to that she's not doing then can't be her fault for failing to meet those.


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## mr wistful

Rachaelm
First of all let me say that you make some good points, and I am going to do my best to address them.* Your first point you are absolutely right words are hallow. I have no intention of slipping back into my old ways. For the better part of a month now I have tried to change a lot of my flaws. Change cannot occur overnight it is a gradual process. I have tried to make my wife a higher priority spend time with her, take on more housework, spend more time with the kids, write my wife love letters, buy her flowers, be more open to her needs ect...

I have a lot to change. I have said and done a lot of things to hurt my wife, and in the end my reasons don't matter. Nothing gives me the right to act as I acted.* My wife is and always has been the love of my life, and my best friend. I have not always shown her that. I realized that I needed to change. I have started to change some of my bad havbits, and hurtful behavior, and at the same time change takes time.

As far as your question about weather I was trying to be quiet the answer is yes. I didn't lie about that. Did I handle the situation well. No I did not. We have another bathroom I could have used. I clearly wasn't thinking, and that's on me.

As far as giving her more sleep. Yes it is the only way. You suggested put the kids to bed, or get up with the kids on Saturday morning so she can sleep. Very good suggestions. I* have been responsible for getting the kids to bed for eight years now. As far as getting up with them on the weekends. I* do this half the time we alternate mornings. Now perhaps I can do it every morning, that might not be a bad suggestion.

Totally true that one day off will not fix everything. I never expected it to, and at the same time it is a start. I feel it went well, and I am planning on doing it again later this month.

As far as our financial situation.* We actually have closer to 100K for retirement. I make just under 100K per year. As far as the house the first mortgage is almost paid off. We have a second mortgage on the house roughly half of what the first mortgage is. We had two houses lasr year. We finally managed to sell the first towards the end of last year. We couldn't afford both mortgages and as a result a good portion of last year was spent trying to sell the first house. We had to sell the first house because we live 4 states away from it. I finally managed to find a buyer at a huge loss, basically most of our savings, and I had to take out the second mortgage. This sounds bad, and at the same time I can replinish our savings through our tax refund, and my yearly bonus which is paid out in March, and the second mortgage payment is manageable.

I really am not trying to make excuses. Nothing gives me the right to act as I acted. It is very difficult to manage the work of three people, try and do everything I can at home, and to try and sell a house four states away knowing that if you sell it your financial situation can improve drastically, but not knowing if it will sell, and watching your savings disappear as a result of trying to sell it. I could have handled things better, I was under a tremendous amount of preasure from all sides, and I clearly didn't handle it well.

I have said and done a lot of things that I deeply regret, and I am truly trying to change, and atone for my mistakes. If I could go back in time and change my actions I would no questions asked. However I can't go back in time. All I can do is learn from my mistakes, try to atone for them, and ensure that they are never repeated. He who doesn't learn from history is doomed to repeat it.

Thank you very much for your good advice, and input.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

mr wistful said:


> Rachaelm
> First of all let me say that you make some good points, and I am going to do my best to address them.* Your first point you are absolutely right words are hallow. I have no intention of slipping back into my old ways. For the better part of a month now I have tried to change a lot of my flaws. Change cannot occur overnight it is a gradual process. I have tried to make my wife a higher priority spend time with her, take on more housework, spend more time with the kids, write my wife love letters, buy her flowers, be more open to her needs ect...
> 
> I have a lot to change. I have said and done a lot of things to hurt my wife, and in the end my reasons don't matter. Nothing gives me the right to act as I acted.* My wife is and always has been the love of my life, and my best friend. I have not always shown her that. I realized that I needed to change. I have started to change some of my bad havbits, and hurtful behavior, and at the same time change takes time.
> 
> As far as your question about weather I was trying to be quiet the answer is yes. I didn't lie about that. Did I handle the situation well. No I did not. We have another bathroom I could have used. I clearly wasn't thinking, and that's on me.
> 
> As far as giving her more sleep. Yes it is the only way. You suggested put the kids to bed, or get up with the kids on Saturday morning so she can sleep. Very good suggestions. I* have been responsible for getting the kids to bed for eight years now. As far as getting up with them on the weekends. I* do this half the time we alternate mornings. Now perhaps I can do it every morning, that might not be a bad suggestion.
> 
> Totally true that one day off will not fix everything. I never expected it to, and at the same time it is a start. I feel it went well, and I am planning on doing it again later this month.
> 
> As far as our financial situation.* We actually have closer to 100K for retirement. I make just under 100K per year. As far as the house the first mortgage is almost paid off. We have a second mortgage on the house roughly half of what the first mortgage is. We had two houses lasr year. We finally managed to sell the first towards the end of last year. We couldn't afford both mortgages and as a result a good portion of last year was spent trying to sell the first house. We had to sell the first house because we live 4 states away from it. I finally managed to find a buyer at a huge loss, basically most of our savings, and I had to take out the second mortgage. This sounds bad, and at the same time I can replinish our savings through our tax refund, and my yearly bonus which is paid out in March, and the second mortgage payment is manageable.
> 
> I really am not trying to make excuses. Nothing gives me the right to act as I acted. It is very difficult to manage the work of three people, try and do everything I can at home, and to try and sell a house four states away knowing that if you sell it your financial situation can improve drastically, but not knowing if it will sell, and watching your savings disappear as a result of trying to sell it. I could have handled things better, I was under a tremendous amount of preasure from all sides, and I clearly didn't handle it well.
> 
> I have said and done a lot of things that I deeply regret, and I am truly trying to change, and atone for my mistakes. If I could go back in time and change my actions I would no questions asked. However I can't go back in time. All I can do is learn from my mistakes, try to atone for them, and ensure that they are never repeated. He who doesn't learn from history is doomed to repeat it.
> 
> Thank you very much for your good advice, and input.


What did you say and do that you regret?

And let me just say.... I hear the overwhelm in your post. 

And let me see if I'm hearing this correctly. You already get the kids in the bed every night for eight years as well as alternate weekend mornings. Where is your wife when you are getting the kids to bed? And refresh my memory, does she work outside of the house?


----------



## mr wistful

As far as what I said that I regret one day about a year ago I screamed at my wife that I wanted a divorce. Of course I don't, and I regretted it almost immediately. I love my wife more than anything the preasure finally got to me, and I snapped. I know this caused my wife a lot of pain, and probably destroyed some trust.

As far as what she does when I am putting the kids to bed. She is cleaning up from dinner so that we can spend time together.

No she does not work outside the house, but please don't think she doesn't do her fair share. We live four states from our family, and as a result cannot depend on anyone else to help us. Even if we could depend on family they are the sort of people who make life more difficult not less.

My wife takes care of both kids, and takes care of all the housework alone. As you might guess this is not easy to do with a 16 month old who is extremely clingy, and doesn't like to be put down much. My wife does just as much work as I do. She may not get paid for it, but I always come home to a clean house, a hot meal, and I never have to worry about my kids. They are very well cared for. Society may never recognize her contributions, but trust me when I say they are numerous. She does her fair share.


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## Blossom Leigh

mr wistful said:


> As far as what I said that I regret one day about a year ago I screamed at my wife that I wanted a divorce. Of course I don't, and I regretted it almost immediately. I love my wife more than anything the preasure finally got to me, and I snapped. I know this caused my wife a lot of pain, and probably destroyed some trust.
> 
> As far as what she does when I am putting the kids to bed. She is cleaning up from dinner so that we can spend time together.
> 
> No she does not work outside the house, but please don't think she doesn't do her fair share. We live four states from our family, and as a result cannot depend on anyone else to help us. Even if we could depend on family they are the sort of people who make life more difficult not less.
> 
> My wife takes care of both kids, and takes care of all the housework alone. As you might guess this is not easy to do with a 16 month old who is extremely clingy, and doesn't like to be put down much. My wife does just as much work as I do. She may not get paid for it, but I always come home to a clean house, a hot meal, and I never have to worry about my kids. They are very well cared for. Society may never recognize her contributions, but trust me when I say they are numerous. She does her fair share.


Don't anticipate me. 

You both are completely and totally overwhelmed. Therefore this needs pressure relief or you DO run the risk of getting destructive with each other. As far is the destructive reactions of the past you guys need to butter it in grace and call it done and in the past. Just a mistake of allowing yourselves to get overloaded.

I believe this is a time to throw open the door to support. It would not hurt to have counselors. It also work be a good idea to have someone come in to help your wife around the house so that when the kids nap she can nap without fretting over the house. Since you don't live near family, it will need to be hired out. Developing community around yourselfs is smart. It allows for rest and quality time together.

If hiring out isn't viable, I would be considering moving back to family support if I were in your shoes..


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## turnera

Do you belong to a church? They have awesome organizations that will give you support, let you make friends, give you someone to rely on, give you activities to participate in, etc. My DD25 is agnostic, but she's already decided to raise her kids in a church just for the structure and social aspects it brings children. They have men's clubs, mother's day out events so the moms can be 'off' one afternoon a month, all kinds of things.

Have you two read His Needs Her Needs? I recommend you two doing this first, before anything else. Read it together, like one chapter every night. It will explain SO much and make your marriage so much better.

I also recommend having a monthly 'state of the marriage' meeting, where you both say how you feel the marriage is going, things you're noticing, things you'd like to see go differently...a safe environment where neither of you gets defensive but go to it in the mind of 'what can I learn to make this better?', so to speak. It keeps the communication from shutting down, it keeps you two from starting resentments you can't back away from.


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## wistful_thinking

Yes, we belong to a church. 

My family and my husband's family are ill-equipped to help us in any way. 

My mother is an alcoholic with a meth habit. I am not in contact with her. I am not in contact with my biological father, nor do I care to be in contact with him. My mother and father have a very strange relationship. My mother beat my father, and was very abusive. My father barely worked and sabotaged himself. My mother beat me though out my childhood, until I moved out at 14. I don't have a relationship with my siblings. I am very happy with my choices. 

My husband's mother left him (and never came back) and he went into the care of his (now very elderly) grandparents. I would be ok with his youngest sister watching our children. His other 3 sisters and brother all have problems, which preclude them from being responsible adults, and I don't particularly like them. 

I don't see how moving back to southern Illinois would net us any positives.


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## Blossom Leigh

wistful_thinking said:


> Yes, we belong to a church.
> 
> My family and my husband's family are ill-equipped to help us in any way.
> 
> My mother is an alcoholic with a meth habit. I am not in contact with her. I am not in contact with my biological father, nor do I care to be in contact with him. My mother and father have a very strange relationship. My mother beat my father, and was very abusive. My father barely worked and sabotaged himself. My mother beat me though out my childhood, until I moved out at 14. I don't have a relationship with my siblings. I am very happy with my choices.
> 
> My husband's mother left him (and never came back) and he went into the care of his (now very elderly) grandparents. I would be ok with his youngest sister watching our children. His other 3 sisters and brother all have problems, which preclude them from being responsible adults, and I don't particularly like them.
> 
> I don't see how moving back to southern Illinois would net us any positives.


oh boy.... this explains a LOT.

SO many abuse survivors and ACOA's around here lately. They are coming out of the woodwork.

Are either of you familiar with ACOA?

ETA: Yea, you guys are going to need a LOT of support and it goes to a professional level and the more the merrier. I'm glad y'all are digging into these issues now. Open your hearts and minds to the level of help you need because your family backgrounds had a massive impact on your present and future lives and you both will need to understand it well to navigate this relationship well.


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## turnera

Then let your church be your new family. Become more involved. Make more friends. Do more stuff there. Let them help you. That's the whole point of a church.


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## jld

turnera said:


> Then let your church be your new family. Become more involved. Make more friends. Do more stuff there. Let them help you. That's the whole point of a church.


It is the bigger community, wistful. As opposed to the smaller community of an extended family.

Are you opposed to the church in some way?


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## wistful_thinking

Jdl--I like church, but it is a lot of work for me.


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## Blossom Leigh

wistful_thinking said:


> Jdl--I like church, but it is a lot of work for me.


Why is it work?


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## wistful_thinking

We did go to church every Sunday for years, but with the new baby it is a lot. 

Yes, I know about adult children of alcoholics. I should probably give it a try, at least.


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## wistful_thinking

It is work because I have to pack the diaper bag for it with snacks for the baby, and get the baby settled in. Our son is bored during church and gets into mischief. And sonehow always has no activity pack so i get him one. Then I get called down to the nursery because our daughter starts crying after an hour of no mommy or daddy. Then we get out at lunch time when all the restaurants are packed. We wait. Our son causes more mischief. Then I how wrestle the baby and try to eat. And when we get home I'm always thinking thank goodness that's over.


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## Blossom Leigh

wistful_thinking said:


> We did go to church every Sunday for years, but with the new baby it is a lot.
> 
> Yes, I know about adult children of alcoholics. I should probably give it a try, at least.


I gotcha. Yea, getting out of the house with newborns is a heavy load.

I'm glad you know about ACOA. It has been part of my own journey as well as professional counselors and a LOT of personal study. Many of the books I tapped into are in the link in my signature line below. There are many more not listed, but those will touch in all kinds of areas I see in just the one post about the past. 

Just know... there are a LOT of reactive behaviors that are there because of what happened before y'all met, if allowed to fester unaddressed, they can be destructive to the relationship you are trying to have a protect. What lies underneath them is unresolved trauma.


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## wistful_thinking

Blossom--ok thanks, I'll check that out.


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## turnera

wistful_thinking said:


> It is work because I have to pack the diaper bag for it with snacks for the baby, and get the baby settled in. Our son is bored during church and gets into mischief. And sonehow always has no activity pack so i get him one. Then I get called down to the nursery because our daughter starts crying after an hour of no mommy or daddy. Then we get out at lunch time when all the restaurants are packed. We wait. Our son causes more mischief. Then I how wrestle the baby and try to eat. And when we get home I'm always thinking thank goodness that's over.


What the hell is your husband doing during all this?!

And your church doesn't have a place for toddlers to go during service? Find a new church. I don't know of any that don't anymore.


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## wistful_thinking

He doesn't know how to pack the diaper bag. He doesn't know how to use the car seat. He doesn't know how to bathe the baby. The baby would rather i dressed her. He forgot to turn the shower off for our son. He forgot to get a activity pack. He forgot to not leave his trash in the car. He can't help with the baby because she only wants me. He forgot to put the to go boxes in the fridge. So I have to do everything.

But he is being more useful now.


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## wistful_thinking

The baby is getting much easier also so I can just keep adjusting.


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## turnera

You need to be leaving the baby with him for at least 5 to 10 minutes at a time, and go in the other room or outside, so she starts getting used to him and he starts getting used to her. And then start making it for a few minutes longer each time, until you can leave her with him. Trust me, making the decisions you just described - just because it's 'easier' - will lead to long-term problems in marriage and child-raising.


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## wistful_thinking

Maybe I just demanded him to do things too much and now he doesn't do anything to help me because I demanded it, which led to him not wanting to.


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## Blossom Leigh

wistful_thinking said:


> He doesn't know how to pack the diaper bag. He doesn't know how to use the car seat. He doesn't know how to bathe the baby. The baby would rather i dressed her. He forgot to turn the shower off for our son. He forgot to get a activity pack. He forgot to not leave his trash in the car. He can't help with the baby because she only wants me. He forgot to put the to go boxes in the fridge. So I have to do everything.
> 
> But he is being more useful now.


I challenge both of you to get your husband to the point where he is capable of handling these things. If something happened to you, he would need to be able to step into your shoes. There is no "have" to. 

Wistful you will need to allow your husband to come along side you and learn these things.

Wistful's husband you will need to come along side her and soak in everything she is doing.

wistful.... your challenge is to be particular without being critical

Mr. wistful... your challenge will be to remember.

yall keep trying to teach him to do these things.... just remember not to kill his try by hypercriticism we women can be guilty of.

Balancing these efforts between the two of you is one way to lighten your load wistful, thus protecting the relationship longterm.


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## turnera

wistful_thinking said:


> Maybe I just demanded him to do things too much and now he doesn't do anything to help me because I demanded it, which led to him not wanting to.


So? Did he help make the baby in the first place or not?

Just because you're a SAHM doesn't mean he doesn't own half the responsibility for his kids. Even if they aren't bonding with him and showering him with kisses; you take the good with the bad.

And just because he does something 'not as good as you' doesn't give you the right to criticize him. Remember, men = admiration. The world won't end if the kid eats a lukewarm pudding.

Don't get into the mindset that he is 'doing you a favor' by holding the baby or changing a diaper. That's his job, too! 

And Mr Wistful, you should be paying attention to this. This isn't 1951. You are expected to help care for your own children and do ALL the jobs it takes. Not all the time, but she shouldn't be stuck doing stuff just because you find it hard or distasteful and wash your hands of it. Do that long enough and she'll wonder why she even needs you around.


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## wistful_thinking

Tunera--but when you have demanded someone to do something isn't that when they don't want to do it? 

And yes I have thought lots of times how is this any different then being single? The answer is a nicer school district and sex. In every other way it's the same or harder.


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## Blossom Leigh

wistful_thinking said:


> Maybe I just demanded him to do things too much and now he doesn't do anything to help me because I demanded it, which led to him not wanting to.


This is wisdom. Recognizing that dynamic and being willing to adjust it. This is good reflection wistful.


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## Blossom Leigh

wistful_thinking said:


> Tunera--but when you have demanded someone to do something isn't that when they don't want to do it?
> 
> And yes I have thought lots of times how is this any different then being single? The answer is a nicer school district and sex. In every other way it's the same or harder.


There is a way to do it and a way not to do it. 

Just takes learning the finesse.


While y'all are learning new way of dealing with each other, just decide to be super patient. You guys are going to screw up. Practice grace and mercy during this learning curve.


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## mr wistful

I don't find it hard or distasteful. When I am home I am more than happy to take the kids. I feed the baby, change the baby play with both kids, and generally try to do everything I can to take care of my kids. Just yesterday I worked from home, and as a result I had time in the morning. I let my wife sleep, and I got our oldest ready for school. While I did that I also changed the baby, and got her ready for her day. I have gotten very good at doing most tasks one handed, because when I am home I carry the baby around as much as I have to to keep her happy. A few nights ago I was up with the baby for 2 hours because she would not go to sleep. I take the kids on Saturdays so my wife can work, and I am willing to take them any other time I am home if I am asked.

I am not saying this to garner sympathy, or because I want a medal or anything like that. I just want to point out that I do try to do my part with the kids when I am home. 

Do I do as good a job as my wife NO WAY. She is a pro at taking care of children. Do I know everything no but I am willing to learn, and I make sure my kids are provided for


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## wistful_thinking

Mr wistful--yeah ok you have helped the last 3 weeks, but not really when our baby girl was an infant.


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## mr wistful

Very true. I made mistakes there is no denying that. I can't change the past just learn from it, and do better in the future. I am willing to learn, and I am willing to help


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## Blossom Leigh

mr wistful said:


> I don't find it hard or distasteful. When I am home I am more than happy to take the kids. I feed the baby, change the baby play with both kids, and generally try to do everything I can to take care of my kids. Just yesterday I worked from home, and as a result I had time in the morning. I let my wife sleep, and I got our oldest ready for school. While I did that I also changed the baby, and got her ready for her day. I have gotten very good at doing most tasks one handed, because when I am home I carry the baby around as much as I have to to keep her happy. A few nights ago I was up with the baby for 2 hours because she would not go to sleep. I take the kids on Saturdays so my wife can work, and I am willing to take them any other time I am home if I am asked.
> 
> I am not saying this to garner sympathy, or because I want a medal or anything like that. I just want to point out that I do try to do my part with the kids when I am home.
> 
> Do I do as good a job as my wife NO WAY. She is a pro at taking care of children. Do I know everything no but I am willing to learn, and I make sure my kids are provided for


You have a lot to work with wistful. This is good. I think a good spot to focus is *allowing* him to learn and focus on relaxing a bit. You are hard on yourself Girl. I recognize it because I am you.


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## Blossom Leigh

wistful_thinking said:


> Mr wistful--yeah ok you have helped the last 3 weeks, but not really when our baby girl was an infant.


why mr. wistful?


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## wistful_thinking

Mr wistful--ok I guess that is all that is possible.


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## mr wistful

Blissom

Why I didn't help is because I was working 12 hour days or longer. The record last year was 22 hours straight at my desk without getting up. I barely had time to eat. There was a lot of preasure on me to perform at work. I was doing the job of 3 people.

I am not perfect I could have handled things better, and at the same time I want to do better, and learn from my mistakes


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## Blossom Leigh

wistful_thinking said:


> Mr wistful--ok I guess that is all that is possible.





mr wistful said:


> Blissom
> 
> Why I didn't help is because I was working 12 hour days or longer. The record last year was 22 hours straight at my desk without getting up. I barely had time to eat. There was a lot of preasure on me to perform at work. I was doing the job of 3 people.
> 
> I am not perfect I could have handled things better, and at the same time I want to do better, and learn from my mistakes


wistful... what was on you at the time that his hours were so long

I have a feeling you both had incredibly long days and there was just nothing left.

what kind of help can yall bring in to take the pressure off

I'm glad to hear things are easing up at your job

wistful... let the past go babygirl... that's a destructive position in this situation and isn't going to heal you guys... trust me... been there


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## Blossom Leigh

Have the two of you put some thought to how you want your marriage to be? What it's going to look like when you guys sort through this issues? What you are aiming for?


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## TheTruthHurts

For reference I had 5 kids and changed maybe 10 diapers - seriously.

I worked hard - that was my job. We decided W would retire from her grueling management / operational job and take care of the kids.

Traditional family roles. I also travelled but stopped that when my first two were about 2.

But I'm totally with Mr W. He was doing his job for the marriage.

BTW yes my W wanted things done her way like your wife. Mrs. W please realize that you are boxing out your H when you "own" all this and he can't do it the way you want him to. If you really want him to help let him it his way - who cares if the bottle bag isn't packed right? If it creates a big enough problem he'll figure it out. If it doesn't, then you should be flexible enough to realize there is more than one way to do things.

Peace out


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## wistful_thinking

The truth hurts-- I never said things had to be done my way. I am not like that. My main concern was that my husband was not spending time with the family. 

On top of this he was not really helpful when he was home, but whatever that was not my main goal. It would have been nice if he was helping on Sunday, and at the same time I am not saying he should do an equal amount. It would be nice if he, for instance, carried the diaper bag to the car. I think even men from the 1950s did that.

I think he was a jerk to say he wanted to divorce me and not make time for lunch. 

I am fine with doing most of the work, and I am not saying he has to do half.


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## TheTruthHurts

K sorry I misunderstood. Yep he could hold the door. But I get the 12 hour days in IT thing - that is highly stressful. Read his needs her needs guys generally need decompression time when getting home. Maybe you give him that but if not, realize that the transition to calm is very important.


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## mr wistful

The truth hurts

You are absolutely right. 12 hour days in IT are not easy, and at the same time I can do little things such as hold the door, and carry the diaper bag etc.


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## rachaelm

wistful_thinking said:


> The truth hurts-- I never said things had to be done my way. I am not like that. My main concern was that my husband was not spending time with the family.
> 
> On top of this he was not really helpful when he was home, but whatever that was not my main goal. It would have been nice if he was helping on Sunday, and at the same time I am not saying he should do an equal amount. It would be nice if he, for instance, carried the diaper bag to the car. I think even men from the 1950s did that.
> 
> I think he was a jerk to say he wanted to divorce me and not make time for lunch.
> 
> I am fine with doing most of the work, and I am not saying he has to do half.


I thought you said you work Saturdays?


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## rachaelm

mr wistful said:


> Rachaelm
> First of all let me say that you make some good points, and I am going to do my best to address them.* Your first point you are absolutely right words are hallow. I have no intention of slipping back into my old ways. For the better part of a month now I have tried to change a lot of my flaws. Change cannot occur overnight it is a gradual process. I have tried to make my wife a higher priority spend time with her, take on more housework, spend more time with the kids, write my wife love letters, buy her flowers, be more open to her needs ect...
> 
> I have a lot to change. I have said and done a lot of things to hurt my wife, and in the end my reasons don't matter. Nothing gives me the right to act as I acted.* My wife is and always has been the love of my life, and my best friend. I have not always shown her that. I realized that I needed to change. I have started to change some of my bad havbits, and hurtful behavior, and at the same time change takes time.


You might need to do some changing, but I'm beginning to feel like she needs to do some changing too. You are only responsible for fifty percent of the probs in the marriage. 



mr wistful said:


> As far as your question about weather I was trying to be quiet the answer is yes. I didn't lie about that. Did I handle the situation well. No I did not. We have another bathroom I could have used. I clearly wasn't thinking, and that's on me.
> 
> 
> 
> mr wistful said:
> 
> 
> 
> As far as giving her more sleep. Yes it is the only way. You suggested put the kids to bed, or get up with the kids on Saturday morning so she can sleep. Very good suggestions. I* have been responsible for getting the kids to bed for eight years now. As far as getting up with them on the weekends. I* do this half the time we alternate mornings. Now perhaps I can do it every morning, that might not be a bad suggestion.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think you need to do it every morning, that's not fair, lol! I was under the impression she worked on Saturdays and that Sunday was your only 'family day'. Your 8 year old attends school, correct? So your wife only has the baby for most of the day? I understand concerns about daycare, but what a daycare in a public setting one or two mornings a week? Those generally have multiple workers and are pretty safe.
> 
> 
> 
> mr wistful said:
> 
> 
> 
> Totally true that one day off will not fix everything. I never expected it to, and at the same time it is a start. I feel it went well, and I am planning on doing it again later this month.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Awesome!
> 
> 
> 
> mr wistful said:
> 
> 
> 
> As far as our financial situation.* We actually have closer to 100K for retirement. I make just under 100K per year. As far as the house the first mortgage is almost paid off. We have a second mortgage on the house roughly half of what the first mortgage is. We had two houses lasr year. We finally managed to sell the first towards the end of last year. We couldn't afford both mortgages and as a result a good portion of last year was spent trying to sell the first house. We had to sell the first house because we live 4 states away from it. I finally managed to find a buyer at a huge loss, basically most of our savings, and I had to take out the second mortgage. This sounds bad, and at the same time I can replinish our savings through our tax refund, and my yearly bonus which is paid out in March, and the second mortgage payment is manageable.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It also sounds like things are getting better!
> 
> 
> 
> mr wistful said:
> 
> 
> 
> I really am not trying to make excuses. Nothing gives me the right to act as I acted. It is very difficult to manage the work of three people, try and do everything I can at home, and to try and sell a house four states away knowing that if you sell it your financial situation can improve drastically, but not knowing if it will sell, and watching your savings disappear as a result of trying to sell it. I could have handled things better, I was under a tremendous amount of preasure from all sides, and I clearly didn't handle it well.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It's ok, you're not a bad guy for lashing out when you are angry and stressed. What's not ok is not realizing it or trying to change it. You hurt your wife and I'm sure she has hurt you as well. Crap happens in marriage all the time and you both will hurt each other again in the future, count on it.
> 
> I have said and done a lot of things that I deeply regret, and I am truly trying to change, and atone for my mistakes. If I could go back in time and change my actions I would no questions asked. However I can't go back in time. All I can do is learn from my mistakes, try to atone for them, and ensure that they are never repeated. He who doesn't learn from history is doomed to repeat it.
> 
> Thank you very much for your good advice, and input.
Click to expand...

What do you want from your wife that you aren't getting? You don't need to take all of the blame on yourself for marital issues. Do you look forward to going home at the end of the day? Why or why not? Does your wife know what you want from her?

She has listed some complaints about you, mostly to do with your job and being inconsiderate but what is your side? I still feel like there's something you aren't saying. There must be something she does that is like nails on a chalkboard to you and makes you disengage. I am not trying to cause a fight between you two, but if you aren't honest about all the issues, they will continue to be a source of resentment between the two of you.


----------



## rachaelm

wistful_thinking said:


> Yes, we belong to a church.
> 
> My family and my husband's family are ill-equipped to help us in any way.
> 
> My mother is an alcoholic with a meth habit. I am not in contact with her. I am not in contact with my biological father, nor do I care to be in contact with him. My mother and father have a very strange relationship. My mother beat my father, and was very abusive. My father barely worked and sabotaged himself. My mother beat me though out my childhood, until I moved out at 14. I don't have a relationship with my siblings. I am very happy with my choices.
> 
> My husband's mother left him (and never came back) and he went into the care of his (now very elderly) grandparents. I would be ok with his youngest sister watching our children. His other 3 sisters and brother all have problems, which preclude them from being responsible adults, and I don't particularly like them.
> 
> I don't see how moving back to southern Illinois would net us any positives.


You have done well to escape the poverty, abuse and drug addiction of your family. It's hard to break a cycle like that but sometimes we are so focused on not being outwardly similar to our parents or families, we forget about the internal similarities. There is an anger that comes across in your words, it could be frustration, it could be hurt coming across as annoyance but I am willing to bet it was there long before you met your husband and would still be there if you two did divorce. How many times a day does something frustrate you or do you get angry? Who do you blame when you do get angry? Have you ever gotten counseling or anything to help with what you went through as a child? Seeing your parent being abused does something to you as a child, it changes you, how you react to things, how you perceive the world around you, how you interact with people.

Do you have female friends around your age with kids? Are you friends with any families in the church you to, like actually get together with them outside of church? You sound isolated as hell and with no support system. What about joining some Mommy and Me groups while your older child is in school? You need friends to talk to that have kids too. I think you are lonely and stressed but you might be placing too many expectations on your husband. He is not perfect but neither are you. It's not all his fault. What are you doing that contributes to the problems?


----------



## rachaelm

wistful_thinking said:


> Maybe I just demanded him to do things too much and now he doesn't do anything to help me because I demanded it, which led to him not wanting to.


This is completely possible and very likely. A lot of men feel criticized by their wives when it comes to interacting or caring for the baby. If someone is complaining or nagging or saying you arent doing something right, it doesn't motivate you to want to do it. It makes you feel like you can't do anything right so you give up. Help him to want to do it, some things like changing diapers will never be fun, but there are so many ways to enjoy spending time while taking care of the kids. What kid isn't happy in the tub? It's a great time to play with them and gets them out of your hair for a few minutes. Maybe he could take over evening baths?


----------



## rachaelm

wistful_thinking said:


> And yes I have thought lots of times how is this any different then being single? The answer is a nicer school district and sex. In every other way it's the same or harder.


It's a lot harder, you won't be spending your days with the kids anymore. You will be getting up at the buttcrack of dawn to get them to daycare, then commuting to work, picking them up from daycare just in time to eat dinner, do homework, baths, go to bed and repeat. You wont really be enjoying the weekends with them either because dad will have them every other weekend and the other weekend you'll be trying to catch up with everything you couldn't do during the week.


----------



## rachaelm

@mr wistful @wistful_thinking

Your problems are not insurmountable. No one is cheating, no one is beating the other, you are both hard workers and love the kids, you are ok financially and you both want it to work. Buuut you are both tired and stressed, angry and resentful, appear to lack support outside of each other and empathy for what the other goes through. Mrs Wistful, think about how much it blows to get up early every morning, commute to work, work 10 hours in a draining environment, commute home, walk in the door and be greeted by a stressed and frustrated wife, needy kids. His day isn't much fun, either. 

Mr. Wistful, envision trying to manage the baby and get another kid fed dressed and to school on time, then get home, start cleaning up, doing laundry, dishes, grocery shopping, all with a toddler hanging on you all day, no adult interaction all day long, it's lonely, then you try to reach out to your husband to have lunch twice a week for year, just to break up the day and get a little connection without the kids there or all the looming responsibilities of the home and every....single....time...he says 'no' 'too busy' 'can't fit it in today'. 

Life probably isn't turning out the way either of you planned, eh! There is struggle in both of your roles but instead of pointing out what each of you could do better, try pointing out what you are already doing well. Think about when your boss notices you're doing a good job, it makes you want to work harder, but criticism just shuts you down and think 'why bother'.


----------



## wistful_thinking

Rachel--yes I work on Saturday. After our fight, when our baby was 6 months my boss called me and said she had to fire her assistant and she couldn't find a replacement, and she begged me to come back. Also she is a sweetie and she let's me pick my hours. I love working.


----------



## wistful_thinking

Rachel--I don't think I have an anger problem. Most of what I was feeling was just hurt and sadnes because it felt like he didn't love me because my 2 main love languages are quality time and acts of service. 

I don't think my childhood effects me that much, other than not having grandparents for my children. I think I was going to be who I was going to be to a point, and it doesn't matter. 

In Alice Miller's book she explains that it is not child abuse that damages you, but the denial of reality. 

The only thing my husband asked for was for me to stop ignoring him. 

I do have friends at the gym.


----------



## wistful_thinking

Last night we calmly talked about our differences. And we came to the agreement that we will try to do more loving things for eachother. 

The only thing my husband asked for was for me to stop ignoring him, and let him make it up to me. He was sick of me ignoring him. 

We probably need to talk about what we want this marriage to look like.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

wistful_thinking said:


> Rachel--I don't think I have an anger problem. Most of what I was feeling was just hurt and sadnes because it felt like he didn't love me because my 2 main love languages are quality time and acts of service.
> 
> *I don't think my childhood effects me that much*, other than not having grandparents for my children. I think I was going to be who I was going to be to a point, and it doesn't matter.
> 
> In Alice Miller's book she explains that it is not child abuse that damages you, but the denial of reality.
> 
> The only thing my husband asked for was for me to stop ignoring him.
> 
> I do have friends at the gym.



 you have no idea just how much it does... dig into it when you are ready. But trust me... the impact was heavy. Yes, you adapted and survived it, but those coping strategies that you needed at the time will continue to plague this relationship on both sides.


----------



## wistful_thinking

Blossom--how? What books do you recommend? Codependent no more? I already read all of Susan Forward and Alice Miller's books.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Yes ... its the key to getting you guys balanced and both need to read it, but be patient with it and each other. New skills don't happen over night. Also the big red book from ACOA.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

One of the key ways is we are hypervigilant, have fear of abandonment so look to others for happiness and hyper control of our environment... and I know I know... "I'm not like that".... another key component is denial.


----------



## wistful_thinking

Blossom--yes? Do you mean yes to codependent no more?


----------



## wistful_thinking

Blossom-- I can't see your book list. I may need to fire up a real computer instead of a tablet.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

wistful_thinking said:


> Blossom--yes? Do you mean yes to codependent no more?


Yes Ma'am


----------



## Blossom Leigh

First page of my page....


As my own recovery continues and I share with others the resources I tap into to navigate it, I am finding it necessary to park it in one spot. This is that one spot that will be linked back to my signature line and will be edited as needed. As well as where the rest of my story will unfold.

Favorite Quotes: 
"The day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud 
was more painful than the risk it took to Blossom." - Anais Nin 

"To be a cowgirl is more than just fluff and stuff. You have to do your share of the work, kill your own snakes, never complain, mount up even when you know you may get bucked off, and all the while being more of a lady at work than when you are at home."~~Cowgirl Wisdom from Georgie Sicking, Nat'l Cowgirl Hall Of Fame Honoree

"Never underestimate the potential for things to improve
in ways you cannot yet imagine." Karen Rohlf 

"Be soft as possible, but firm as necessary" - Pat Parelli

My Favorite Parellisms that work on people too!


Abuse Awareness:
Parelli Natural Horsemanship...where awareness and recovery started for me
Stockholm Syndrome
Out of the Fog
Why Domestic Violence Victims Don't Leave
Luke17:3 Ministries for Adult Daughters of Abusive Birth Families
Abandonment Recovery
Healing Developmental Trauma

***The abuse left me with Complex PTSD and Codependency and propensity for Stockholm Syndrome listed above. I am learning to navigate them and take full responsibility to engage my ongoing recovery.


Long Term Recovery Support Group:
Celebrate Recovery - Christ centered 12 step program
ACOA - 12 step program

Short Term Intensive In House Codependency Treatment:
The Bridge to Recovery


Recovery Books:
Bible
Codependency No More (free audio version on YouTube)
Beyond Codependency
The Language of Letting Go
Victory Over the Darkness
Navigating Narcissistic Predicaments
Emotional Blackmail
Boundaries
Will I Ever Be Good Enough
Emotional Unavailability
Unsafe People
The Emotionally Unavailable Man
You Don't Have to Take it Anymore
The Betrayal Bond - Breaking Free of Exploitive Relationships
Complex PTSD: From Surviving to Thriving
Because He Loves Me
Toxic Inlaws
Toxic Parents

Clarity on Boundaries: coming...



Marriage Resources:
The Art of Marriage
How to Tame the Lame Blame Game
Jesus Teaching on Divorce by John MacArthur
The Other Man's Grass by Alistair Begg

Affair Recovery:
www.affairrecovery.com

My Story
Back Story Coming...


----------



## wistful_thinking

Thanks. Quite a few are available to listen to for free on youtube. A lot are available on Kindle. I have always gotten a lot out of Susan Forward and have read her books for years.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

wistful_thinking said:


> Thanks. Quite a few are available to listen to for free on youtube. A lot are available on Kindle. I have always gotten a lot out of Susan Forward and have read her books for years.


Yea, I have a few of hers too. There is also Will I Ever Be Good Enough and Luke17:3 ministries.

Luke 17:3 Ministries Inc For Adult Daughters of Controlling or Abusive Birth-Families

Lot of great stuff to tap and I truly hope the best for you both.


----------



## wistful_thinking

I am just going to buy the codependent no more to read at night. There is a lot on you tube, but it is really too much to process at once for me. And I think the devotional would be good for me. I like to think about one concept, so that I can really process it.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

It's definitely stuff that requires you pace yourself.


----------



## mr wistful

So recently my wife had us listen to part of the audiobook Love and Respect by Dr. Emerson Eggerichs. Today I have started where we left off, and although I am only about 40 percent of the way through it I believe I have started to see where I was going wrong not just the last year, but the better part of our relationship.

Women crave Love, they need it as they need air to breathe. Men crave respect in the same way. 

I knew, and still know that my wife loves me deeply. I was feeling disrepectted, because I felt she was always putting me down. What I failed to realize and could not verbalize, was that this was her way of saying I am valnerable, I need you to love me. This caused her to get more infuriated not because she doesn't respect me, but merely because she was pleading to be loved. I failed to decipher the code, and thus meet her basic need.

She on the other hand failed to see that my need was respect, and when she was reaching out for love, and I felt put down I felt disrespected. I would get infuriated and scream back at her thus making her feel unloved she would scream more, and thus I felt disrespected. 

This is what the author calls the crazy cycle. Eventually I felt so disrespected I screamed I wanted a divorce. Of course I don't want a divorce. What I was really saying was I want your respect. I was unable to verbalize this need, and screaming I want a divorce pushed my wife away more, and made her feel unloved even more, and that is how we got here.

The cycle can be stopped. I now know my wife is just crying out for love. She respects me, and if I can interpret her code not as I don't respect you, but rather as I need you to love me. Then I can give her the love she is asking for, and deserves, and she will give me the respect I need, and deserve. Thus I can stop the cycle.

She should, and I'm sure will pick up on my need for respect, and make sure I feel respect. This will lead me to be more loving to her which she needs and deserves, and thus she can stop the cycle. 

If we both work at this overtime I believe we can, and will make our relationship better then it has ever been.

If we both decipher the others code, and know the others basic need, and give it to them we both win.

Now to my wife.

I can see so many times in our relationship that you where crying out for love, and I responded negatively, and hurt you. I am truly sorry for every hurt I have caused you. Please know that I truly love you unconditionally. I know i have failed to show it at times. I was ignorant of the fact that you where nor getting the love you where craving, and unable to decipher your signals. That is not an excuse merely an aknowledgement of my short comings as a husband. I known things can't be fixed in a day, and it will take time, and at the same time I promise to treat you with the love you have been so desperately asking for, and you deserve.


----------



## jld

mr wistful said:


> So recently my wife had us listen to part of the audiobook Love and Respect by Dr. Emerson Eggerichs. Today I have started where we left off, and although I am only about 40 percent of the way through it I believe I have started to see where I was going wrong not just the last year, but the better part of our relationship.
> 
> Women crave Love, they need it as they need air to breathe. Men crave respect in the same way.
> 
> I knew, and still know that my wife loves me deeply. I was feeling disrepectted, because I felt she was always putting me down. What I failed to realize and could not verbalize, was that this was her way of saying I am valnerable, I need you to love me. This caused her to get more infuriated not because she doesn't respect me, but merely because she was pleading to be loved. I failed to decipher the code, and thus meet her basic need.
> 
> She on the other hand failed to see that my need was respect, and when she was reaching out for love, and I felt put down I felt disrespected. I would get infuriated and scream back at her thus making her feel unloved she would scream more, and thus I felt disrespected.
> 
> This is what the author calls the crazy cycle. Eventually I felt so disrespected I screamed I wanted a divorce. Of course I don't want a divorce. What I was really saying was I want your respect. I was unable to verbalize this need, and screaming I want a divorce pushed my wife away more, and made her feel unloved even more, and that is how we got here.
> 
> The cycle can be stopped. I now know my wife is just crying out for love. She respects me, and if I can interpret her code not as I don't respect you, but rather as I need you to love me. Then I can give her the love she is asking for, and deserves, and she will give me the respect I need, and deserve. Thus I can stop the cycle.
> 
> She should, and I'm sure will pick up on my need for respect, and make sure I feel respect. This will lead me to be more loving to her which she needs and deserves, and thus she can stop the cycle.
> 
> If we both work at this overtime I believe we can, and will make our relationship better then it has ever been.
> 
> If we both decipher the others code, and know the others basic need, and give it to them we both win.
> 
> Now to my wife.
> 
> I can see so many times in our relationship that you where crying out for love, and I responded negatively, and hurt you. I am truly sorry for every hurt I have caused you. Please know that I truly love you unconditionally. I know i have failed to show it at times. I was ignorant of the fact that you where nor getting the love you where craving, and unable to decipher your signals. That is not an excuse merely an aknowledgement of my short comings as a husband. I known things can't be fixed in a day, and it will take time, and at the same time I promise to treat you with the love you have been so desperately asking for, and you deserve.


This is beautiful, mr wistful. 

My concern, as I expressed a few days ago to your wife, is your having said you wanted a divorce. I don't think I would ever recover from that, ever really trust my husband again if he said that. But your wife is very forgiving.


----------



## jld

mrs wistful, I think the reading you have done, by Susan Forward and Alice Miller, is impressive. You are a strong woman, and you are willing to be patient with your husband. He is trying. He is willing to learn. He sounds like a good man. I think your marriage is going to be fine.


----------



## mr wistful

mr wistful said:


> jld said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mr wistful said:
> 
> 
> 
> So recently my wife had us listen to part of the audiobook Love and Respect by Dr. Emerson Eggerichs. Today I have started where we left off, and although I am only about 40 percent of the way through it I believe I have started to see where I was going wrong not just the last year, but the better part of our relationship.
> 
> Women crave Love, they need it as they need air to breathe. Men crave respect in the same way.
> 
> I knew, and still know that my wife loves me deeply. I was feeling disrepectted, because I felt she was always putting me down. What I failed to realize and could not verbalize, was that this was her way of saying I am valnerable, I need you to love me. This caused her to get more infuriated not because she doesn't respect me, but merely because she was pleading to be loved. I failed to decipher the code, and thus meet her basic need.
> 
> She on the other hand failed to see that my need was respect, and when she was reaching out for love, and I felt put down I felt disrespected. I would get infuriated and scream back at her thus making her feel unloved she would scream more, and thus I felt disrespected.
> 
> This is what the author calls the crazy cycle. Eventually I felt so disrespected I screamed I wanted a divorce. Of course I don't want a divorce. What I was really saying was I want your respect. I was unable to verbalize this need, and screaming I want a divorce pushed my wife away more, and made her feel unloved even more, and that is how we got here.
> 
> The cycle can be stopped. I now know my wife is just crying out for love. She respects me, and if I can interpret her code not as I don't respect you, but rather as I need you to love me. Then I can give her the love she is asking for, and deserves, and she will give me the respect I need, and deserve. Thus I can stop the cycle.
> 
> She should, and I'm sure will pick up on my need for respect, and make sure I feel respect. This will lead me to be more loving to her which she needs and deserves, and thus she can stop the cycle.
> 
> If we both work at this overtime I believe we can, and will make our relationship better then it has ever been.
> 
> If we both decipher the others code, and know the others basic need, and give it to them we both win.
> 
> Now to my wife.
> 
> I can see so many times in our relationship that you where crying out for love, and I responded negatively, and hurt you. I am truly sorry for every hurt I have caused you. Please know that I truly love you unconditionally. I know i have failed to show it at times. I was ignorant of the fact that you where nor getting the love you where craving, and unable to decipher your signals. That is not an excuse merely an aknowledgement of my short comings as a husband. I known things can't be fixed in a day, and it will take time, and at the same time I promise to treat you with the love you have been so desperately asking for, and you deserve.
> 
> 
> 
> This is beautiful, mr wistful.
> 
> My concern, as I expressed a few days ago to your wife, is your having said you wanted a divorce. I don't think I would ever recover from that, ever really trust my husband again if he said that. But your wife is very forgiving.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Jld
> I know I hurt my wife, by saying I want a divorce. I know that she still feels pain from it. I believe we can move past it.
> 
> You have judged correctly. My wife is a beautiful person with an incredible ability for compassion, and forgiveness. I am truly blessed by her. Now my actions need to show it.
Click to expand...


----------



## yellerstang03

Blossom Leigh said:


> you have no idea just how much it does... dig into it when you are ready. But trust me... the impact was heavy. Yes, you adapted and survived it, but those coping strategies that you needed at the time will continue to plague this relationship on both sides.


Big +1. Its just not easy to access those feelings because it has been so long since you were there.

My wife and I separated 5 months ago. We argued a lot. My wife said I was not positive or encouraging enough and my primary beef is I did not feel important to her. 

However, it wasn't until I told my own mother about our separation that the old feelings came back. I just wanted support from my mom, but she proceeded to take my wife's side in every issue. Just like that, I was 10 years old again with the same feeling that I was not valuable or important. It also showed me that I was not given a lot of positive direction or encouragement as a child, and as a result it didn't come naturally to me as a father or husband.


----------



## jld

mr wistful said:


> Jid
> I know I hurt my wife, by saying I want a divorce. I know that she still feels pain from it. I believe we can move past it.
> 
> You have judged correctly. My wife is a beautiful person with an incredible ability for compassion, and forgiveness. I am truly blessed by her. Now my actions need to show it.


She is a strong, smart woman. She is willing to do a lot for you and the kids. And you clearly appreciate that. 

I am going to believe that the trust that was broken can be restored. 

I am impressed by the responsibility and maturity you are showing, mr wistful. Keep earning and maintaining her respect. That is the healthiest way to get it.


----------



## wistful_thinking

My husband

thanks, for reading that book. I know that you are a good man. I will try to show you respect through talking to you softly not angry or ignoring you. I know that you are incredibly smart and talented. And a good father because you are good at playing with our children. You make me proud.


----------



## wistful_thinking

yellerstang03 said:


> Blossom Leigh said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> you have no idea just how much it does... dig into it when you are ready. But trust me... the impact was heavy. Yes, you adapted and survived it, but those coping strategies that you needed at the time will continue to plague this relationship on both sides.
> 
> 
> 
> Big +1. Its just not easy to access those feelings because it has been so long since you were there.
> 
> My wife and I separated 5 months ago. We argued a lot. My wife said I was not positive or encouraging enough and my primary beef is I did not feel important to her.
> 
> However, it wasn't until I told my own mother about our separation that the old feelings came back. I just wanted support from my mom, but she proceeded to take my wife's side in every issue. Just like that, I was 10 years old again with the same feeling that I was not valuable or important. It also showed me that I was not given a lot of positive direction or encouragement as a child, and as a result it didn't come naturally to me as a father or husband.
Click to expand...


Ok, and at the same time I have admitted to myself that my parents were incompetent as parents, and am fine with them doing whatever because it doesn't matter. They are not my problem, anymore. 

I don't care if they are disappointed in me. Why would I? It has no basis in reality.


----------



## wistful_thinking

Jdl-- Thanks it does seem like our ship is back on course. And I do think he is worth it. He really is a good man.


----------



## turnera

wistful_thinking said:


> I don't think my childhood effects me that much
> 
> The only thing my husband asked for was for me to stop ignoring him.


That right there - is your childhood affecting you. You learned dysfunctional ways to deal with stress - like ignoring.

Think about it - WHY do you ignore him? What does that get you? Does it make you feel superior? Like you won? Or do you just want to pretend he doesn't exist? Neither is healthy.

And think about how HE feels when you ignore him. Unloved. Abandoned. Disposable. 

For now, get the book His Needs Her Needs and read it together, asap. I promise you, it will make a LOT of sense and help. 

And also set up a weekly state of the marriage meeting, for maybe 15 minutes, where you just speak honestly, without anger, without getting defensive. Just knowing that you'll have that 15 minutes to go over problems and fix problems will take the stress off of both of you during the rest of the week so that you can focus on loving each other. 

And mr.wistful, you really need to keep dating your wife. It's how couples stay in love. Locate a long-term babysitter and use her at least once or twice a month. Look into some day trips to local towns. Consider getting overnight babysitting and book the two of you into a local hotel for a night or get massages. Try out a new restaurant every month. Make new memories. It won't take that much effort to restore things.


----------



## wistful_thinking

Tunera--I ignore him for 2 reasons: 
1) nothing works so why try? 
2) to not have to feel despair


----------



## Blossom Leigh

wistful_thinking said:


> Tunera--I ignore him for 2 reasons:
> 1) nothing works so why try?
> 2) to not have to feel despair


Its a destructive choice versus a constructive choice.


----------



## jld

wistful_thinking said:


> My husband
> 
> thanks, for reading that book. I know that you are a good man. I will try to show you respect through talking to you softly not angry or ignoring you. I know that you are incredibly smart and talented. And a good father because you are good at playing with our children. You make me proud.


Very sweet, mrs wistful.


----------



## jld

wistful_thinking said:


> Tunera--I ignore him for 2 reasons:
> 1) nothing works so why try?
> 2) to not have to feel despair


The silent treatment is pretty common when wives feel as you do, mrs wistful. Who is going to waste energy forever on someone who does not seem to be trying to understand us? 

As mr wistful learns to be more loving, and earns your respect and trust, you will naturally start respecting him more. It will show in how you treat him.


----------



## rachaelm

wistful_thinking said:


> Rachel--I don't think I have an anger problem. Most of what I was feeling was just hurt and sadnes because it felt like he didn't love me because my 2 main love languages are quality time and acts of service.


But it appeared to manifest itself as anger. Please don't take that as an insult, anger is a secondary emotion, not primary. Meaning that it is triggered by another emotion, for example, you feel disrespected but instead of admitting that you feel hurt, you become angry. Anger is safe, being vulnerable and saying you are hurt is a lot harder to do.



wistful_thinking said:


> I don't think my childhood effects me that much, other than not having grandparents for my children. I think I was going to be who I was going to be to a point, and it doesn't matter.


I feel like this is a naive statement, in some ways. There are aspects that are true but on a whole, it's incorrect. Everything you go through as a child deeply affects you. Why? Because these are your formative years, where you learn how to love, to trust, what is normal and not normal in a relationship, how to interact with others. If someone who taught you how to walk had a limp, don't you think you might emulate that limp? Look how careful you are with your children, is that because you know that there are lots of people who could easily harm them, since your mother did it to you? Arent you quite concerned with financial security because of the poverty you experienced and your father's inability to hold a job? Is that why you chose to marry a man that takes his job and role as a provider very seriously? These aren't bad things but it shows how your childhood does affect the adult you become. 



wistful_thinking said:


> In Alice Miller's book she explains that it is not child abuse that damages you, but the denial of reality.


Have you read Attachment Theory, Bowlby and Ainsworth? It's been cross culturally replicated and very easy to understand, also insightful. It may be of some use to you.



wistful_thinking said:


> The only thing my husband asked for was for me to stop ignoring him.


Awesome! It has been my experience that men have a hard time asking for things for they want/need in a relationship, other than sex, lol. Good for him for verbalizing a need! I believe if you give him what he needs, he will give you what you need. It will never be perfect, but it can be so much better! Maybe when he comes from work, you could give him like 15 minutes to just relax and adjust to being home before asking him to do anything. I know a lot of men who say the first that happens when they come is the wife starts throwing the kids at them and asking them to jump in right away. It's not wrong but if you give him a hug, ask how his day was and give him just a few minutes to switch pace, it might help him to be more present with you when he is there.



wistful_thinking said:


> I do have friends at the gym.


Friends with kids that you see outside of the gym? You don't have any family close by, you need to develop a support network near where you live. Someone you could take the kids to the park with while your husband is at work, someone to complain about the Terrible Two's with that can offer advice on how to handle to temper tantrums, someone who your kids can play with their kids, maybe someone you could occasionally swap babysitting with. Moms need moms friends, it helps a lot with the daily stresses of raising kids.


----------



## rachaelm

mr wistful said:


> So recently my wife had us listen to part of the audiobook Love and Respect by Dr. Emerson Eggerichs. Today I have started where we left off, and although I am only about 40 percent of the way through it I believe I have started to see where I was going wrong not just the last year, but the better part of our relationship.
> 
> Women crave Love, they need it as they need air to breathe. Men crave respect in the same way.
> 
> I knew, and still know that my wife loves me deeply. I was feeling disrepectted, because I felt she was always putting me down. What I failed to realize and could not verbalize, was that this was her way of saying I am valnerable, I need you to love me. This caused her to get more infuriated not because she doesn't respect me, but merely because she was pleading to be loved. I failed to decipher the code, and thus meet her basic need.
> 
> She on the other hand failed to see that my need was respect, and when she was reaching out for love, and I felt put down I felt disrespected. I would get infuriated and scream back at her thus making her feel unloved she would scream more, and thus I felt disrespected.
> 
> This is what the author calls the crazy cycle. Eventually I felt so disrespected I screamed I wanted a divorce. Of course I don't want a divorce. What I was really saying was I want your respect. I was unable to verbalize this need, and screaming I want a divorce pushed my wife away more, and made her feel unloved even more, and that is how we got here.
> 
> The cycle can be stopped. I now know my wife is just crying out for love. She respects me, and if I can interpret her code not as I don't respect you, but rather as I need you to love me. Then I can give her the love she is asking for, and deserves, and she will give me the respect I need, and deserve. Thus I can stop the cycle.
> 
> She should, and I'm sure will pick up on my need for respect, and make sure I feel respect. This will lead me to be more loving to her which she needs and deserves, and thus she can stop the cycle.
> 
> If we both work at this overtime I believe we can, and will make our relationship better then it has ever been.
> 
> If we both decipher the others code, and know the others basic need, and give it to them we both win.


It's incredible how we feed off of the behavior of people in our lives and vice versa. A good thing to do when you are both stressed, the phone is ringing, the baby's crying and supper is burning on the stove is just to take a deep breath and focus on one thing at a time. Sometimes looking at the whole picture is too overwhelming but if you focus one thing, it helps to break it down simply. Pickup the baby, walk over to the stove and lift the pan off the burner, whoever is calling can call back later. It's not that big of deal in the grand scheme of things, it's when you are tense and tired or feel like you don't know where to go next that it becomes easy to fight and blame someone else.



mr wistful said:


> Now to my wife.
> 
> I can see so many times in our relationship that you where crying out for love, and I responded negatively, and hurt you. I am truly sorry for every hurt I have caused you. Please know that I truly love you unconditionally. I know i have failed to show it at times. I was ignorant of the fact that you where nor getting the love you where craving, and unable to decipher your signals. That is not an excuse merely an aknowledgement of my short comings as a husband. I known things can't be fixed in a day, and it will take time, and at the same time I promise to treat you with the love you have been so desperately asking for, and you deserve.


:toast: :allhail:

NICE! You are totally getting lucky tonight!


----------



## turnera

wistful_thinking said:


> Tunera--I ignore him for 2 reasons:
> 1) nothing works so why try?
> 2) to not have to feel despair


1) Really? Nothing? That's just your self-soothing talking and directing you, even if it's not true and not helpful. People learn good habits and bad ones from their parents. 
2) Now you have chosen constructive steps - like coming here and speaking honestly to him through this forum. So you are learning that you can stop feeling despair - through your choices.

Right?


----------



## TheTruthHurts

turnera said:


> wistful_thinking said:
> 
> 
> 
> Tunera--I ignore him for 2 reasons:
> 1) nothing works so why try?
> 2) to not have to feel despair
> 
> 
> 
> 1) Really? Nothing? That's just your self-soothing talking and directing you, even if it's not true and not helpful. People learn good habits and bad ones from their parents.
> 2) Now you have chosen constructive steps - like coming here and speaking honestly to him through this forum. So you are learning that you can stop feeling despair - through your choices.
> 
> Right?
Click to expand...

Not ready... Too big a leap but it's a good try turnera.

You just eviscerated her entire line of defense and exposed her. I just think that's too much of a risk for her right now.


----------



## sumij

If you both love each other, which it sounds like you do, find out whatever it takes to spend time together and have fun. Counseling is also a good suggestion as you both can learn how to communicate what it is you need in the relationship. If you put the relationship first by deciding it's important in your lives, then you can find ways in which to make it work. Try different things and see if you can both have a sense of humor about it, if certain things don't work. 

A great workshop I attended years ago was "understanding men". I believe it's under that name with a .com at the end. It teaches both men and women the ways in which we differ that cause many of the misunderstandings between us. It might be a good place to start.

Good luck to you both. I do feel it's repairable.


----------



## wistful_thinking

turnera said:


> wistful_thinking said:
> 
> 
> 
> Tunera--I ignore him for 2 reasons:
> 1) nothing works so why try?
> 2) to not have to feel despair
> 
> 
> 
> 1) Really? Nothing? That's just your self-soothing talking and directing you, even if it's not true and not helpful. People learn good habits and bad ones from their parents.
> 2) Now you have chosen constructive steps - like coming here and speaking honestly to him through this forum. So you are learning that you can stop feeling despair - through your choices.
> 
> Right?[/QUOTE
> 
> I mean nothing that I tried worked. I tried taking Gottman's 7 principals to heart. I tried talking. I tried yelling. I tried texting. And then I thought this is crazy, why am I doing this to myself when nothing works?
> 
> I felt rage. I broke my phone. I felt guilt. Then I said to myself there is no way to fix this. Why don't I ask some random people on the Internet. I had lurked here. And I was thinking maybe I will get someone who has been there done that.
> 
> I told him I am asking random people online and he said $&!%, they are going to tell you to take our kids and leave me.
> 
> So I started not asking him for anything. I tried leaving my phone in the kitchen drawer all day and using my tablet, so that I wouldn't get any messages he was sending.
> 
> Then we made up. And that is how I am here.
> 
> I did do positive things first, but at some point I just had to take a step back from the relationship because I was feeling too much pain.
Click to expand...


----------



## wistful_thinking

Oh yeah, I asked him to lunch. That is what didn't work.


----------



## jld

wistful_thinking said:


> I mean nothing that I tried worked. I tried taking Gottman's 7 principals to heart. I tried talking. I tried yelling. I tried texting. And then I thought this is crazy, why am I doing this to myself when nothing works?
> 
> I felt rage. I broke my phone. I felt guilt. Then I said to myself there is no way to fix this. Why don't I ask some random people on the Internet. I had lurked here. And I was thinking maybe I will get someone who has been there done that.
> 
> I told him I am asking random people online and he said $&!%, they are going to tell you to take our kids and leave me.
> 
> So I started not asking him for anything. I tried leaving my phone in the kitchen drawer all day and using my tablet, so that I wouldn't get any messages he was sending.
> 
> Then we made up. And that is how I am here.
> 
> I did do positive things first, but at some point I just had to take a step back from the relationship because I was feeling too much pain.


Understandable. At some point he needed to respond. And now he has.

I am glad the_ Love and Respect _book has been helpful to you. Mutual humility can do wonders in a marriage.

My concern when women do too much in marriage is that they can become overwhelmed. And if the wife is doing everything, the husband does not grow. 

It is to your advantage financially, though, to stay married. If by being more respectful to him, he will be more loving, it might be worth taking that step of leadership in your marriage. I think it would be better if he inspired your respect naturally, though.


----------



## Duguesclin

Mr Wistful, great job on acknowledging your issues.

Have you taken your wife for lunch yet? If you have not, you should. Monday would be perfect.


----------



## mr wistful

Duguesclin

I took her out to lunch on Wednesday, and our oldest wanted us to come to his school yesterday (Friday) to have lunch with him, so I went with her to do that. My plan is to try, and eat lunch with her at least once a week. Twice when I can manage it. My wife deserves that.


----------



## jld

mr wistful said:


> Duguesclin
> 
> I took her out to lunch on Wednesday, and our oldest wanted us to come to his school yesterday (Friday) to have lunch with him, so I went with her to do that. My plan is to try, and eat lunch with her at least once a week. Twice when I can manage it. My wife deserves that.


You have a great attitude, mr wistful.


----------



## wistful_thinking

sumij said:


> If you both love each other, which it sounds like you do, find out whatever it takes to spend time together and have fun. Counseling is also a good suggestion as you both can learn how to communicate what it is you need in the relationship. If you put the relationship first by deciding it's important in your lives, then you can find ways in which to make it work. Try different things and see if you can both have a sense of humor about it, if certain things don't work.
> 
> A great workshop I attended years ago was "understanding men". I believe it's under that name with a .com at the end. It teaches both men and women the ways in which we differ that cause many of the misunderstandings between us. It might be a good place to start.
> 
> Good luck to you both. I do feel it's repairable.


Looked it up. Great stuff. 


http://www.understandmen.com/morsels/morsels1.html


----------



## rachaelm

wistful_thinking said:


> Tunera--I ignore him for 2 reasons:
> 1) nothing works so why try?
> 2) to not have to feel despair


I've done the silent treatment before for several reasons (none of them right) to make sure he knew I was mad and disappointed, to punish him, because I am not a yeller, to frustrate him because I was frustrated, and as a passive aggressive sort of revenge.


----------



## Lila

wistful_thinking said:


> I mean nothing that I tried worked. I tried taking Gottman's 7 principals to heart. I tried talking. I tried yelling. I tried texting. And then I thought this is crazy, why am I doing this to myself when nothing works?
> 
> I felt rage. I broke my phone. I felt guilt. Then I said to myself there is no way to fix this. Why don't I ask some random people on the Internet. I had lurked here. And I was thinking maybe I will get someone who has been there done that.
> 
> I told him I am asking random people online and he said $&!%, they are going to tell you to take our kids and leave me.
> 
> So I started not asking him for anything. I tried leaving my phone in the kitchen drawer all day and using my tablet, so that I wouldn't get any messages he was sending.
> 
> Then we made up. And that is how I am here.
> 
> I did do positive things first, but at some point I just had to take a step back from the relationship because I was feeling too much pain.


Sister, I have been, there done that, and have the t-shirt to show for it. I know how you feel. My resentment towards my husband was sky high by the time he decided to get with the program. I remember telling him "Now you want to make things right now that I'm emotionally drained? !" 

It may be the most difficult thing you do but if you wish to stay married to your H, then you're going to have to let go of the resentment and be open to receiving his love and attention. The man is trying. Give him the opportunity to succeed. Do not let the past interfere with your ability to accept his improvements. My 2 cents.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Lila said:


> Sister, I have been, there done that, and have the t-shirt to show for it. I know how you feel. My resentment towards my husband was sky high by the time he decided to get with the program. I remember telling him "Now you want to make things right now that I'm emotionally drained? !"
> 
> It may be the most difficult thing you do but if you wish to stay married to your H, then you're going to have to let go of the resentment and be open to receiving his love and attention. The man is trying. Give him the opportunity to succeed. Do not let the past interfere with your ability to accept his improvements. My 2 cents.


Deeply true


----------



## wistful_thinking

I am looking forward to knowing more. Where are you today?


----------



## wistful_thinking

My husband was trying to do everything that he can to be nice to me, and it is very easy to be respectful also. 

He cleaned out the car (which is hard to do with a baby). He found a babysitter he took me out to eat. 

He talked with me about a lot of things. We talked about what we needed. He cooked breakfast. And he had a better attitude. And he said, "I should have done this earlier because I feel a lot happier."

The book LOVE & RESPECT helped my husband understand our dynamic: he started to understand that he is angry because I order him around instead of asking him (which feels disrespectful) and then he complaints about everything (which makes me feel unloved). And it is hard to be appreciative when he has an attitude. Also, I would then say don't bother helping me because I don't need your attitude (which isolated us from eachother).

I also have been trying to ask my husband and my son would you mind doing xyz instead of go do xyz. 

We also took the test for HNHN and I am interested in learning the love busters. The author seems presumptuous to me. 

We also talked about the relationship we had before we had children. We couldn't get enough of eachother. We played board games, we studied together, we bent over backwards to help eachother, we called eachother during the day, we missed each other, my husband would make pasta sauce while I worked on Saturday (he is incredible at it), during college I dug my car out of a blizzard for hours and drove to pick him up from the train station so that he would not be stranded, ect.

We looked up what relationship goals are and we made goals: 

1) We will spend at least an hour together after our kids are in bed 4 nights a week. 

2) We will text eachother 3 things that we appreciate every day. 

3) I will call him during the day if possible. 

Life threw a lot at us, but we made it worse on ourselves and eachother, but now that he is gentle toward me it is easier to give him what he wants. 

And I am really enjoying him. I am missing him (when he is gone) and wanting him (when he is here), instead of avoiding him and ignoring him.


----------



## jld

What a beautiful update, mrs wistful!


----------



## turnera

Please read HNHN anyway, no matter what you think the author seems. I've read hundreds of books on this stuff, and HNHN is clearly THE best book on how to have a healthy, happy marriage. Read the book, THEN do the questionnaires (Emotional Needs and Love Busters).


----------



## Duguesclin

Mrs Wistful, this is a wonderful update. Great job for both of you.


----------



## Lila

wistful_thinking said:


> I am looking forward to knowing more. Where are you today?


I didn't check TAM on my computer over the long holiday weekend and just now saw your post. I'm assuming you were asking me? If so, things are better than they were. Are they perfect? No and I don't think that will ever be the case. 

For my part, having become almost completely emotionally disconnected has long-term effects, some of which are lack of fear of the unknown and complete self-reliance. I navigated the maze once and know the path to the exit by heart. It makes me sad but having that knowledge makes it easier to choose that path today than prior to the disconnect. I don't have one foot out the door but I haven't moved beyond the foyer....and probably never will.

For his part, my husband understands that I'm with him because I choose to not because I 'need' him, per se. He says that's the hardest thing to accept. He, like many men, was brought up to believe that as long as a husband provides well for his family, is a good father, and respects his wife...all is good in the world. Those things are great but in my case, I can provide for myself and my kid just fine; he'll always be a great father whether I'm in the picture or not; and respect is something we hopefully show everyone. So what need does that leave him to work with? A partner who wants to spend time with me, who makes me a priority - not an afterthought. Sounds simple but it's not. I think sometimes he resents me for being 'difficult'. Difficult meaning different. 

Lots of good changes have happened but our relationship will never be what it was in the beginning.


----------



## jld

Very honest post, Lila. Thank you.


----------



## wistful_thinking

Lila said:


> wistful_thinking said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am looking forward to knowing more. Where are you today?
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't check TAM on my computer over the long holiday weekend and just now saw your post. I'm assuming you were asking me? If so, things are better than they were. Are they perfect? No and I don't think that will ever be the case.
> 
> For my part, having become almost completely emotionally disconnected has long-term effects, some of which are lack of fear of the unknown and complete self-reliance. I navigated the maze once and know the path to the exit by heart. It makes me sad but having that knowledge makes it easier to choose that path today than prior to the disconnect. I don't have one foot out the door but I haven't moved beyond the foyer....and probably never will.
> 
> For his part, my husband understands that I'm with him because I choose to not because I 'need' him, per se. He says that's the hardest thing to accept. He, like many men, was brought up to believe that as long as a husband provides well for his family, is a good father, and respects his wife...all is good in the world. Those things are great but in my case, I can provide for myself and my kid just fine; he'll always be a great father whether I'm in the picture or not; and respect is something we hopefully show everyone. So what need does that leave him to work with? A partner who wants to spend time with me, who makes me a priority - not an afterthought. Sounds simple but it's not. I think sometimes he resents me for being 'difficult'. Difficult meaning different.
> 
> Lots of good changes have happened but our relationship will never be what it was in the beginning.
Click to expand...


Lila-- Yeah I was talking to you. Thanks for the answer. 

I feel like I am blessed to watch my daughter instead of working during the day. My children bring me a lot of joy. On the other hand, it hurts that I got no support, no help and no love or affectation for a year.


----------



## wistful_thinking

I also finished reading CODEPENDENT NO MORE and doing the exercises. It took a lot of my time today and yesterday. We bought the kindle and audible so it keeps your place and you can go back and forth between listening and reading, which is very convenient. 

It is a great book. And I have parts marked to reread. 

I have always been working on myself, however, it showed me a lot of my weaknesses. 

I made a list of things to work on about myself: 

1) don't beat myself up

2) feel things as they happen and be OK with that

3) join a support group


----------



## rachaelm

wistful_thinking said:


> Lila-- Yeah I was talking to you. Thanks for the answer.
> 
> I feel like I am blessed to watch my daughter instead of working during the day. My children bring me a lot of joy. On the other hand, it hurts that I got no support, no help and no love or affectation for a year.


It does hurt to be neglected by your partner, but if you can see his point of view, it helps to forgive and let go of the resentment.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

wistful_thinking said:


> Lila-- Yeah I was talking to you. Thanks for the answer.
> 
> I feel like I am blessed to watch my daughter instead of working during the day. My children bring me a lot of joy. On the other hand, it hurts that I got no support, no help and no love or affectation for a year.


No love or affection whatsoever?


----------



## jld

rachaelm said:


> It does hurt to be neglected by your partner, but if you can see his point of view, it helps to forgive and let go of the resentment.


It helps if his pov really does not indicate any intentional neglect. Or if so, that he apologized and shows genuine effort in trying to change.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## wistful_thinking

Blossom Leigh said:


> wistful_thinking said:
> 
> 
> 
> Lila-- Yeah I was talking to you. Thanks for the answer.
> 
> I feel like I am blessed to watch my daughter instead of working during the day. My children bring me a lot of joy. On the other hand, it hurts that I got no support, no help and no love or affectation for a year.
> 
> 
> 
> No love or affection whatsoever?
Click to expand...

Not non-sex affection.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

wistful_thinking said:


> Not non-sex affection.


He didn't touch you in a non sexual way for an entire year?


----------



## wistful_thinking

We decided to talk about our relationship last night and it devolved into talking about everything in circles. 

I say, "I thought after our baby was born you were going to work less. Instead, you worked more". 

He said, "I tried to hug you, you wouldn't hug me."

I said, "there was only 15 minutes until the baby cried I wanted a shower not a hug. Why should I worry about what you need; I can't even take care of myself."

"I would have taken the baby."

"I asked you to take the baby, you would hold her for one minute, and then say she needs to nurse."

"Well, she always wants you. She would cry when I held her." 

And on and on like that. Calmly, but having the same argument and not getting anywhere. 

We had 4 really good days before that when we did not try to talk about anything to do with the past. We have time scheduled with a nanny every weekend from now on, and Friday is the parents night out again. 

I feel very frustrated and confused with the whole relationship.


----------



## jld

Could you stop the cycle with active listening?

Instead of responding by defending yourself, could you just repeat his words back to him, or paraphrase them, or ask an openended question?

Either of you could do it. But since you are here, I thought you might want to go first.

When people feel heard, they calm down and are able to listen better to the other pov.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blossom Leigh

wistful_thinking said:


> We decided to talk about our relationship last night and it devolved into talking about everything in circles.
> 
> I say, "I thought after our baby was born you were going to work less. Instead, you worked more".
> 
> *He said, "I tried to hug you, you wouldn't hug me."
> 
> **I said, "there was only 15 minutes until the baby cried I wanted a shower not a hug.* Why should I worry about what you need; I can't even take care of myself."
> 
> "I would have taken the baby."
> 
> "I asked you to take the baby, you would hold her for one minute, and then say she needs to nurse."
> 
> "Well, she always wants you. She would cry when I held her."
> 
> And on and on like that. Calmly, but having the same argument and not getting anywhere.
> 
> We had 4 really good days before that when we did not try to talk about anything to do with the past. We have time scheduled with a nanny every weekend from now on, and Friday is the parents night out again.
> 
> I feel very frustrated and confused with the whole relationship.


This is why I kept asking that question. He doesn't seem like the type who won't be affectionate. He tried and he was thwarted. Then when he highlighted his attempt, he was dismissed. 

Is it accurate to say he wasn't affectionate in ways you wanted him to be affectionate and/or at inappropriate times?


----------



## wistful_thinking

Blossom Leigh said:


> wistful_thinking said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not non-sex affection.
> 
> 
> 
> He didn't touch you in a non sexual way for an entire year?
Click to expand...

Yes, but it was both of our faults. 

He tried to hug me multiple times and I got really mad because once the baby was asleep I wanted to run and do what I needed to do, so he stopped trying to hug me. 

Our baby was very needy her first year. We slept with the baby between us because she nurses, until she was 13 months she slept between us. I never sat next to him because I can use the chair to position the baby while she was nursing. And during the week he was barely home. Then, I started working on Saturday. 

I would tell him to take her so I could sleep, but he would always say "no it's your turn." He never noticed when I just took her so he would think she always slept through the night. I thought that was a time he could have been more loving; he could have just taken her and let me sleep. She woke up at 5 am her whole first year of life. My husband would either sleep or get ready for work. On Saturday I would take her even though my work does not open until 7am, and I would not have to arrive until 9. I would still take her.

He promised me he would take care of the baby. He did not. 

Now she is not an infant. She sleeps though the night, and wakes up at 6:30, so none of this is even relevant to moving forward.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

wistful_thinking said:


> Yes, but it was both of our faults.
> 
> He tried to hug me multiple times and I got really mad because once the baby was asleep I wanted to run and do what I needed to do, so he stopped trying to hug me.
> 
> Our baby was very needy her first year. We slept with the baby between us because she nurses, until she was 13 months she slept between us. I never sat next to him because I can use the chair to position the baby while she was nursing. And during the week he was barely home. Then, I started working on Saturday.
> 
> I would tell him to take her so I could sleep, but he would always say "no it's your turn." He never noticed when I just took her so he would think she always slept through the night. I thought that was a time he could have been more loving; he could have just taken her and let me sleep. She woke up at 5 am her whole first year of life. My husband would either sleep or get ready for work. On Saturday I would take her even though my work does not open until 7am, and I would not have to arrive until 9. I would still take her.
> 
> He promised me he would take care of the baby. He did not.
> 
> Now she is not an infant. She sleeps though the night, and wakes up at 6:30, so none of this is even relevant to moving forward.


Its good to see that accurately. Do you have a plan going forward on how to let go of the resentment?

I understand the frustration.


----------



## jld

It is relevant in the sense that it is resentment from the past that needs to be worked through. 

I think if he could acknowledge your feelings about it, that would go a long way toward healing it.

He is still reading here, correct?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## wistful_thinking

Blossom Leigh said:


> wistful_thinking said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, but it was both of our faults.
> 
> He tried to hug me multiple times and I got really mad because once the baby was asleep I wanted to run and do what I needed to do, so he stopped trying to hug me.
> 
> Our baby was very needy her first year. We slept with the baby between us because she nurses, until she was 13 months she slept between us. I never sat next to him because I can use the chair to position the baby while she was nursing. And during the week he was barely home. Then, I started working on Saturday.
> 
> I would tell him to take her so I could sleep, but he would always say "no it's your turn." He never noticed when I just took her so he would think she always slept through the night. I thought that was a time he could have been more loving; he could have just taken her and let me sleep. She woke up at 5 am her whole first year of life. My husband would either sleep or get ready for work. On Saturday I would take her even though my work does not open until 7am, and I would not have to arrive until 9. I would still take her.
> 
> He promised me he would take care of the baby. He did not.
> 
> Now she is not an infant. She sleeps though the night, and wakes up at 6:30, so none of this is even relevant to moving forward.
> 
> 
> 
> Its good to see that accurately. Do you have a plan going forward on how to let go of the resentment?
> 
> I understand the frustration.
Click to expand...

How can I not be mad about it? I guess I just feel what I feel. There is no escaping it. 

The only thing I have been doing is hitting the gym. I lifted weights, rode the expesso bike, did yoga, did meditation ect. Almost every day I go to the gym.


----------



## wistful_thinking

jld said:


> It is relevant in the sense that it is resentment from the past that needs to be worked through.
> 
> I think if he could acknowledge your feelings about it, that would go a long way toward healing it.
> 
> He is still reading here, correct?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't think there is anything he can do. It's my feelings, so it's my problems.


----------



## jld

wistful_thinking said:


> I don't think there is anything he can do. It's my feelings, so it's my problems.


Try this:

_It's crucial for you to understand that your feelings are YOUR feelings. They belong to you. So they're yours to work through. Lots of us didn't get that memo. 

Here's the thing: we all have very unique personalities and triggers. What makes me feel bad is very different from what makes someone else feel bad. That's because my wounds greatly influence my uncomfortable emotions. 

My wounds (and subsequent feelings) are not caused by someone else (in the present moment). I know it feels like they are, but they aren't. 

Are my feelings provoked by someone else? Yes! All the time! But this doesn't make it their fault or their responsibility to fix. The sooner we recognize this, the happier we'll be in relationships. 

When you take responsibility for your feelings, you don't have to deal with the madness of trying to get someone to make it better (which never works anyway). _

http://www.mindbodygreen.com/0-10390/are-you-expressing-your-feelings-or-just-creating-drama.html


I think in a marriage, though, it is better to go for acknowledgement of each other's feelings. It is part of building your marital bond. 

But if that is not possible, and generally in other, less invested relationships, the above approach can be very helpful.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

wistful_thinking said:


> How can I not be mad about it? I guess I just feel what I feel. There is no escaping it.
> 
> The only thing I have been doing is hitting the gym. I lifted weights, rode the expesso bike, did yoga, did meditation ect. Almost every day I go to the gym.


I wasnt' suggesting you not be mad about it in the short term.

Its the long term plan I was addressing.

There are times our spouses fail us in ways they can't go back and undo. And no amount of acknowledgement will heal the pain. Would you agree? I've walked that walk. 

Therefore a healthy thing is to err on the side of grace, mercy.

He tried... was it the best.. no, but he cared enough to try and frankly didn't know what to do with your "go whoa."

"Hey I appreciate your try, can I get you to hold the baby a little longer, I really am exhausted, I know she fusses with you, but lets see if we can work through that she needs to get used to both of us."

See the difference?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

@wistful_thinking

I want to share a story with you because in it you may find something that resonates and helps.

My H had an affair on me in 2012. That is not something he can ever undo. Nothing will fix the history we have. It ruptured our entire reality at the time. We had to completely rebuild a new relationship, but before we got to that stage my pain was incredibly high. What I learned at the *height* of my pain was to have mercy on him. One night after a horrible day, the Lord laid it on my heart "The only thing I want you to do is have mercy on him." So, I did. I knew I could do that because my faith was no longer in my husbands behavior but in the power of Christ. 

Three months later he gave his life to Christ.

Over time I kept practicing taking my eyes off my husbands performance and put it in Christ faithfulness. My H had proven himself unfaithful, but Christ never has. That was the rock of our reconciliation. In turn, my husband also took his eyes off me and put his eyes on Christ. It fixed our codependency issues in a very organic way.

I don't share that around here very often because I'm not a Bible thumper. But ours is truly a situation where our faith was the *next* phase of healing so that we *both* could let the pain go.


----------



## wistful_thinking

Blossom Leigh said:


> @wistful_thinking
> 
> I want to share a story with you because in it you may find something that resonates and helps.
> 
> My H had an affair on me in 2012. That is not something he can ever undo. Nothing will fix the history we have. It ruptured our entire reality at the time. We had to completely rebuild a new relationship, but before we got to that stage my pain was incredibly high. What I learned at the *height* of my pain was to have mercy on him. One night after a horrible day, the Lord laid it on my heart "The only thing I want you to do is have mercy on him." So, I did. I knew I could do that because my faith was no longer in my husbands behavior but in the power of Christ.
> 
> Three months later he gave his life to Christ.
> 
> Over time I kept practicing taking my eyes off my husbands performance and put it in Christ faithfulness. My H had proven himself unfaithful, but Christ never has. That was the rock of our reconciliation. In turn, my husband also took his eyes off me and put his eyes on Christ. It fixed our codependency issues in a very organic way.
> 
> I don't share that around here very often because I'm not a Bible thumper. But ours is truly a situation where our faith was the *next* phase of healing so that we *both* could let the pain go.



Ok more to think about.


----------



## turnera

wistful_thinking said:


> We decided to talk about our relationship last night and it devolved into talking about everything in circles.
> 
> I say, "I thought after our baby was born you were going to work less. Instead, you worked more".
> 
> He said, "I tried to hug you, you wouldn't hug me."
> 
> I said, "there was only 15 minutes until the baby cried I wanted a shower not a hug. Why should I worry about what you need; I can't even take care of myself."
> 
> "I would have taken the baby."
> 
> "I asked you to take the baby, you would hold her for one minute, and then say she needs to nurse."
> 
> "Well, she always wants you. She would cry when I held her."
> 
> And on and on like that. Calmly, but having the same argument and not getting anywhere.
> 
> We had 4 really good days before that when we did not try to talk about anything to do with the past. We have time scheduled with a nanny every weekend from now on, and Friday is the parents night out again.
> 
> I feel very frustrated and confused with the whole relationship.


wistful, that's not the kind of discussion you should be having. Every sentence you relayed is an accusation. What do accusations make YOU want to do? Defend yourself.

So stop accusing. Instead, ask. Probe. Get more information as to what it felt like on HIS side (and mr.wistful, you do the same).

It's not your job (or right) to get him to 'agree' that he was bad to you. Not if you want a good marriage. It's your job to understand WHY he does what he does and see what YOU can do to move his feelings from bad ones to good ones. 

If you read HNHN, you will understand exactly what I'm talking about. Before I read it, I was FULL of resentment. He was the enemy. After I read it, I asked myself what my contribution was to WHY he was doing what he was doing - and it became clear that HE was just reacting to ME. So I started meeting his Emotional Needs and I started removing the Love Busters I did that made him unhappy. 

I didn't WANT to, I WANTED to stay wrapped up in my resentment blanket, where I could pat myself on the head and blame it all on him. But I was the one learning, so I went first. I stopped the LBs. I made a hard effort to meet all his ENs. And the change was palpable and almost instantaneous: he started trying to make ME happy, too. 

You two don't have that bad of a marriage; this stuff should easily be fixed. But you're gonna have to stop doing what you've been doing and open yourself to learning and changing. 

Start asking him how he feels and why, and try to find how YOUR choices are contributing to that and what you can change.

Mr.wistful, I expect you to do the same.


----------



## turnera

wistful_thinking said:


> I don't think there is anything he can do. It's my feelings, so it's my problems.


Wrong. You can keep discussing it until you HEAR how HE interpreted and why he did what he did. You cocooned yourself into mommyhood and he was edged out. I daresay he's just as full of resentment as you are.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

This is a very dangerous game you are playing. Many marriages fail when the mom transfers all her attention to the child, gives very little to the H, and only heaps accusation and resentment on him.

That is what others are seeing, and what the women are more gently telling you.

Note I didn't blame him or absolve him. His part in this isn't relevant here - this is stuff you have to see about yourself. He had his own work to do.

When I destabilized things a bit in my marriage - because I had unmet needs - my W and I both immediately agreed NOT to even examine the past. We've had an amazing relationship, and didn't want to amplify 30+ years of little tiffs and resentments. We didn't want to rewrite a good history as a bad one. Sure we both had disappointments - but you know what? We passed on expressing them at the time because we saw clearly that the positives of the situation outweighed the negatives. Cherry picking out all the past negatives serves no useful purpose. So we are moving forward, negotiating, talking, listening, occasionally fighting, trying to establish the best new normal possible.

I think most moms can remember not getting the support they wanted and most dads can remember being neglected, expected to provide, and not getting the sex they needed. That's what it's like for 90% of us at times when kids are young. Do don't blow it up more than it needs to be.

Just my $.02


----------



## mr wistful

Why I did what I did.

First of all I have a very demanding job. I was working 12 hour days. I would come home and I was mentally exhausted, and had a splitting headache most nights to the point where I was taking ib profin almost nightly.* 

Whenever I would take the baby she would cry because she was hungry. I was told not to give her formula because she was breast fed, so I would give her to my wife. After enough time I felt like the baby just didn't like me whenever I took her she cried. I was hurt by the fact that my daughter didn't seem to want me.* So I tried to distract myself. I was trying to find things around the house to do. Unclog the drain in the bathroom, install a new water spicket outside put some pantry shelves together, install the baby gates etc.* I couldn't make a dent on what needed done however

I felt like my efforts where met with hostility. I would come home to hear I cant depend on you, you never help me, I'm just like a single mother, I don't even know why we are married, I might as well be a single mother etc.* One time when I worked from home I came downstairs, and said I can take the baby for 15 minutes while you do what you need to do, but then I have to get back to work. I have a meeting. After 20 minutes I told her I needed to get back to work. My wife got mad threw what she was working on, and said I never help her. Another time she yelled at me that the light bulbs are all burnt out so I agreed to change them. I fell off the ladder, and scrapped all my skin of part of my arm down to the bone .* I got back up on the ladder and finished changing the bulb.* I was told that oh well you should have had someone holding the ladder, which I knew I should have, and at the same time I felt like no one cared about me.

I felt constantly attacked, nothing I did mattered, and worthless, and no matter what I did nothing was going to change that.* Eventually I think I started shutting down.

I tell you all this not for sympathy. I don't want it. I was doing what I thought needed done. I also don't want anyone to attack my wife. She is a very loving woman who was simply asked to do to much. I feel that neither of us handled our situation well. Neither of us understood the other. I only mention all of this to explain why I acted like I did, not as an excuse, or to try and absolve myself of blame. There are no excuses for my actions, and I hold the ultimate blame for them.** I hold no hard feelings. Life is to short for that.* I love my wife dearly, and I recognize that I have always been better then most people at letting things go. I will wait patiently for my wife to ger over her feelings of resentment. When she needs to talk I will be there, when she is feeling upset because ofwhat I did I will be there. No matter what happens I will be there.No matter how long it takes.* Most people cannot let go of a year of hurt based on a month of trying.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Her letting go won't be solely on your efforts in the marriage. She'll end up finding that some of it will have to be covered in grace. And visa versa.


----------



## wistful_thinking

turnera said:


> wistful_thinking said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think there is anything he can do. It's my feelings, so it's my problems.
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong. You can keep discussing it until you HEAR how HE interpreted and why he did what he did. You cocooned yourself into mommyhood and he was edged out. I daresay he's just as full of resentment as you are.
Click to expand...

I wanted help with the baby. I don't see how I edged him out. I asked for help.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

wistful_thinking said:


> I wanted help with the baby. I don't see how I edged him out. I asked for help.





mr wistful said:


> Why I did what I did.
> 
> First of all I have a very demanding job. I was working 12 hour days. I would come home and I was mentally exhausted, and had a splitting headache most nights to the point where I was taking ib profin almost nightly.*
> 
> Whenever I would take the baby she would cry because she was hungry. I was told not to give her formula because she was breast fed, so I would give her to my wife. After enough time I felt like the baby just didn't like me whenever I took her she cried. I was hurt by the fact that my daughter didn't seem to want me.* So I tried to distract myself. I was trying to find things around the house to do. Unclog the drain in the bathroom, install a new water spicket outside put some pantry shelves together, install the baby gates etc.* I couldn't make a dent on what needed done however
> 
> *I felt like my efforts where met with hostility*.* I would come home to hear I cant depend on you, you never help me, I'm just like a single mother, I don't even know why we are married, I might as well be a single mother etc.** One time when I worked from home I came downstairs, and said I can take the baby for 15 minutes while you do what you need to do, but then I have to get back to work. I have a meeting. After 20 minutes I told her I needed to get back to work.* My wife got mad threw what she was working on, and said I never help her. Another time she yelled at me that the light bulbs are all burnt out *so I agreed to change them. I fell off the ladder, and scrapped all my skin of part of my arm down to the bone .* I got back up on the ladder and finished changing the bulb.* I was told that oh well you should have had someone holding the ladder, which I knew I should have, and at the same time* I felt like no one cared about me.
> 
> **I felt constantly attacked, nothing I did mattered, and worthless, and no matter what I did nothing was going to change that.* Eventually I think I started shutting down.
> *
> I tell you all this not for sympathy. I don't want it. I was doing what I thought needed done. I also don't want anyone to attack my wife. She is a very loving woman who was simply asked to do to much. I feel that neither of us handled our situation well. Neither of us understood the other. I only mention all of this to explain why I acted like I did, not as an excuse, or to try and absolve myself of blame. There are no excuses for my actions, and I hold the ultimate blame for them.** I hold no hard feelings. Life is to short for that.* I love my wife dearly, and I recognize that I have always been better then most people at letting things go. I will wait patiently for my wife to ger over her feelings of resentment. When she needs to talk I will be there, when she is feeling upset because ofwhat I did I will be there. No matter what happens I will be there.No matter how long it takes.* Most people cannot let go of a year of hurt based on a month of trying.



The way you handle your husband leaves him feeling the above. He is already addressing his side of contributing behaviors. These are yours. The ones that are hyper critical and hostile.

Mr Wistful highlighting your wifes approach to you is not attacking her. It is for the purpose of her developing more empathy for you the way you do for her.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

wistful_thinking said:


> turnera said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> wistful_thinking said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think there is anything he can do. It's my feelings, so it's my problems.
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong. You can keep discussing it until you HEAR how HE interpreted and why he did what he did. You cocooned yourself into mommyhood and he was edged out. I daresay he's just as full of resentment as you are.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I wanted help with the baby. I don't see how I edged him out. I asked for help.
Click to expand...

There is no cavalry coming and it sounds like he was fighting his own battles for the family.

My wife and I are pretty selfless people so maybe my advice and perspective will not resonate.

We've both been upset, angry, put upon by life, work and kids. But we always rallied to help each other rather than fight against each other. And when I say rally to help I only mean that emotionally - often it was only phone calls because I worked long hours line your H and travelled for many years too. W worked her butt off too and I knew she appreciated my efforts. But I guess we both knew it was a lot of work... and didn't expect the other to reduce that work.

Just a perspective to consider.

You both clearly worked / are working very hard for your family. Why not recognize that and say thank you to each other?


----------



## wistful_thinking

Blossom Leigh said:


> wistful_thinking said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wanted help with the baby. I don't see how I edged him out. I asked for help.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mr wistful said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why I did what I did.
> 
> First of all I have a very demanding job. I was working 12 hour days. I would come home and I was mentally exhausted, and had a splitting headache most nights to the point where I was taking ib profin almost nightly.*
> 
> Whenever I would take the baby she would cry because she was hungry. I was told not to give her formula because she was breast fed, so I would give her to my wife. After enough time I felt like the baby just didn't like me whenever I took her she cried. I was hurt by the fact that my daughter didn't seem to want me.* So I tried to distract myself. I was trying to find things around the house to do. Unclog the drain in the bathroom, install a new water spicket outside put some pantry shelves together, install the baby gates etc.* I couldn't make a dent on what needed done however
> 
> *I felt like my efforts where met with hostility*.* I would come home to hear I cant depend on you, you never help me, I'm just like a single mother, I don't even know why we are married, I might as well be a single mother etc.** One time when I worked from home I came downstairs, and said I can take the baby for 15 minutes while you do what you need to do, but then I have to get back to work. I have a meeting. After 20 minutes I told her I needed to get back to work.* My wife got mad threw what she was working on, and said I never help her. Another time she yelled at me that the light bulbs are all burnt out *so I agreed to change them. I fell off the ladder, and scrapped all my skin of part of my arm down to the bone .* I got back up on the ladder and finished changing the bulb.* I was told that oh well you should have had someone holding the ladder, which I knew I should have, and at the same time* I felt like no one cared about me.
> 
> **I felt constantly attacked, nothing I did mattered, and worthless, and no matter what I did nothing was going to change that.* Eventually I think I started shutting down.
> *
> I tell you all this not for sympathy. I don't want it. I was doing what I thought needed done. I also don't want anyone to attack my wife. She is a very loving woman who was simply asked to do to much. I feel that neither of us handled our situation well. Neither of us understood the other. I only mention all of this to explain why I acted like I did, not as an excuse, or to try and absolve myself of blame. There are no excuses for my actions, and I hold the ultimate blame for them.** I hold no hard feelings. Life is to short for that.* I love my wife dearly, and I recognize that I have always been better then most people at letting things go. I will wait patiently for my wife to ger over her feelings of resentment. When she needs to talk I will be there, when she is feeling upset because ofwhat I did I will be there. No matter what happens I will be there.No matter how long it takes.* Most people cannot let go of a year of hurt based on a month of trying.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The way you handle your husband leaves him feeling the above. He is already addressing his side of contributing behaviors. These are yours. The ones that are hyper critical and hostile.
> 
> Mr Wistful highlighting your wifes approach to you is not attacking her. It is for the purpose of her developing more empathy for you the way you do for her.
Click to expand...

That is true and at the same time, I haven't done this recently.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

wistful_thinking said:


> That is true and at the same time, I haven't done this recently.


Excellent


----------



## turnera

wistful_thinking said:


> I wanted help with the baby. I don't see how I edged him out. I asked for help.


First, you're being defensive, and not open to learn. How will you improve if you're too sensitive to hear his side?

Second, he told us days ago that he felt edged out. He repeated it just a bit ago. That is HOW HE FEELS. Are you saying that his feelings are wrong?

He says you became all about the baby. And your job. 

That is being edged out. Meaning...no time or attention left for him.

Remember me telling you days ago that a man's top need after sex is usually admiration? Every time you focused only on the baby, every time you snapped at him, every time you disrespected the work he did to support you and let you stay home, you DID NOT GIVE admiration. 

So if I were you, the first thing I would do right now is stop telling us (and him) all the ways in which he has failed you, and instead focus on how you can show him admiration. For all he DOES do. Just spend a few days watching him, thinking about him, seeing all the little things he DOES do for you. Does he pick up after himself? Does he put a glass in the dishwasher? Does he play with the baby? Does he put the toilet seat down? I'm sure if you tried, you'd find a bunch of things to be happy about and less and less to be resentful of.

But what it really sounds like is you're more concerned with getting to be the victim. Where does that come from? I sense it because I do it, too. It props up my ego, even when I know it's not healthy or helpful. I have to actively stop myself.


----------



## turnera

wistful_thinking said:


> That is true and at the same time, I haven't done this recently.


Do you still remember the ways in which HE hurt YOU?

Well, then, so does he.


----------



## Lilac23

wistful_thinking said:


> Yes, but it was both of our faults.
> 
> He tried to hug me multiple times and I got really mad because once the baby was asleep I wanted to run and do what I needed to do, so he stopped trying to hug me.
> 
> Our baby was very needy her first year. We slept with the baby between us because she nurses, until she was 13 months she slept between us. I never sat next to him because I can use the chair to position the baby while she was nursing. And during the week he was barely home. Then, I started working on Saturday.
> 
> I would tell him to take her so I could sleep, but he would always say "no it's your turn." He never noticed when I just took her so he would think she always slept through the night. I thought that was a time he could have been more loving; he could have just taken her and let me sleep. She woke up at 5 am her whole first year of life. My husband would either sleep or get ready for work. On Saturday I would take her even though my work does not open until 7am, and I would not have to arrive until 9. I would still take her.
> 
> He promised me he would take care of the baby. He did not.
> 
> Now she is not an infant. She sleeps though the night, and wakes up at 6:30, so none of this is even relevant to moving forward.


I think men love their kids but at the baby age, a lot are just confused on what to do and a little 'scared' of the baby. Moms have such a close bond with babies that first year, especially if you're breastfeeding, that you are literally the baby's lifeline. Dads can feel edged out and kind of c*ckblocked, if you will.


----------



## Lilac23

wistful_thinking said:


> I wanted help with the baby. I don't see how I edged him out. I asked for help.


_How_ did you ask for help? Kindly or with hostility? For sure, you shouldn't have to ask for help because it was his kid too, but you just need to understand where you were coming from and where he was coming from. Empathy!

He didn't feel adequate to meet the baby's needs so he tried to take care of other things around the house. When he did watch the baby, were you thankful for it or focus on things he did wrong that you would have done differently? One of my sisters exclusively breastfed for over a year and I can tell you it's extremely frustrating to watch a baby like that when you are out of breastmilk, even for half an hour. He was also extremely attached to her, like most babies are to mom, he just wanted to be with her. He was about 7 months old before a little more chill being with other people but until like 2 years old, he just mainly wanted her. It can be hard not to take that personally, especially for a dad.


----------



## Lilac23

wistful_thinking said:


> We decided to talk about our relationship last night and it devolved into talking about everything in circles.
> 
> I say, "I thought after our baby was born you were going to work less. Instead, you worked more".


Honey, this is unproductive at best. Neither of you can go back in time and fix what you think you should have done. But do you see how you framed that as a critical accusation instead of actually saying what you were feeling? Next time, maybe try "I thought you were going to make me and our family a priority and I felt like you chose your job over us". 



wistful_thinking said:


> He said, "I tried to hug you, you wouldn't hug me."


I felt like you didn't want me to touch you and didn't care about me. 



wistful_thinking said:


> I said, "there was only 15 minutes until the baby cried I wanted a shower not a hug. Why should I worry about what you need; I can't even take care of myself."


I am overwhelmed with the needs of the baby and I cannot even meet my own needs right now. If I feel you don't care about my needs, I'm not going to care about yours.



wistful_thinking said:


> "I would have taken the baby."


I wanted to help, I didn't know you needed my help so much.



wistful_thinking;14971170"I asked you to take the baby said:


> I told you I needed help and you did not meet my need.
> 
> 
> 
> wistful_thinking said:
> 
> 
> 
> "Well, she always wants you. She would cry when I held her."
> 
> 
> 
> The baby doesn't need me, she needs you.
> 
> 
> 
> wistful_thinking said:
> 
> 
> 
> And on and on like that. Calmly, but having the same argument and not getting anywhere.
> 
> We had 4 really good days before that when we did not try to talk about anything to do with the past. We have time scheduled with a nanny every weekend from now on, and Friday is the parents night out again.
> 
> I feel very frustrated and confused with the whole relationship.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I have a rule, I don't ask questions that I don't want the answer to. Why are you continuing to ask a question that you already know the answer to and that you don't like? He has given you his answer, believe him and accept it. Maybe he was being selfish, maybe you were overwhelmed, maybe this, maybe that. You will never get the answer you want that will make everything perfect or erase the past. Look at what he is doing now, today, and find your forgiveness. This is not the unforgivable sin. He should have seen your need and met it, he acknowledges that. If you want to cling to yesterday then consider, what could you have done differently?
Click to expand...


----------



## Lilac23

mr wistful said:


> Why I did what I did.
> 
> First of all I have a very demanding job. I was working 12 hour days. I would come home and I was mentally exhausted, and had a splitting headache most nights to the point where I was taking ib profin almost nightly.*
> 
> Whenever I would take the baby she would cry because she was hungry. I was told not to give her formula because she was breast fed, so I would give her to my wife. After enough time I felt like the baby just didn't like me whenever I took her she cried. I was hurt by the fact that my daughter didn't seem to want me.* So I tried to distract myself. I was trying to find things around the house to do. Unclog the drain in the bathroom, install a new water spicket outside put some pantry shelves together, install the baby gates etc.* I couldn't make a dent on what needed done however
> 
> I felt like my efforts where met with hostility. I would come home to hear I cant depend on you, you never help me, I'm just like a single mother, I don't even know why we are married, I might as well be a single mother etc.* One time when I worked from home I came downstairs, and said I can take the baby for 15 minutes while you do what you need to do, but then I have to get back to work. I have a meeting. After 20 minutes I told her I needed to get back to work. My wife got mad threw what she was working on, and said I never help her. Another time she yelled at me that the light bulbs are all burnt out so I agreed to change them. I fell off the ladder, and scrapped all my skin of part of my arm down to the bone .* I got back up on the ladder and finished changing the bulb.* I was told that oh well you should have had someone holding the ladder, which I knew I should have, and at the same time I felt like no one cared about me.
> 
> I felt constantly attacked, nothing I did mattered, and worthless, and no matter what I did nothing was going to change that.* Eventually I think I started shutting down.
> 
> I tell you all this not for sympathy. I don't want it. I was doing what I thought needed done. I also don't want anyone to attack my wife. She is a very loving woman who was simply asked to do to much. I feel that neither of us handled our situation well. Neither of us understood the other. I only mention all of this to explain why I acted like I did, not as an excuse, or to try and absolve myself of blame. There are no excuses for my actions, and I hold the ultimate blame for them.** I hold no hard feelings. Life is to short for that.* I love my wife dearly, and I recognize that I have always been better then most people at letting things go. I will wait patiently for my wife to ger over her feelings of resentment. When she needs to talk I will be there, when she is feeling upset because ofwhat I did I will be there. No matter what happens I will be there.No matter how long it takes.* Most people cannot let go of a year of hurt based on a month of trying.


I hesitate to point out some things because I do not want to stir up strife on your end but I feel like you are taking the majority of the blame when you only deserve 50%. In your wife's post she says that you said 'i wanted a hug, you wouldn't give me a hug'. To me, it seems that was her way of minimizing your need. In turn, you minimized her need of needing more help with the baby. Neither one negates the other, but are you holding resentment over it? You can be honest with your feelings, there is nothing wrong with saying how you feel. Just don't do it in a critical, accusatory way. I feel like your wife is not accepting her role in things. Action - reaction, cause - effect. You feed off each other in a relationship and you were not the only one projecting and receiving. It does her no good if she doesn't have some insight into how her behavior is not perfect and always sunshine and roses, either.


----------



## turnera

MC will help get all this resolved. Learning how to talk to each other. Reading HNHN and then doing its questionnaires so you both get to know each other better.


----------



## wistful_thinking

turnera said:


> MC will help get all this resolved. Learning how to talk to each other. Reading HNHN and then doing its questionnaires so you both get to know each other better.



Ok we are in the process of reading it.


----------



## wistful_thinking

turnera said:


> wistful_thinking said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wanted help with the baby. I don't see how I edged him out. I asked for help.
> 
> 
> 
> First, you're being defensive, and not open to learn. How will you improve if you're too sensitive to hear his side?
> 
> Second, he told us days ago that he felt edged out. He repeated it just a bit ago. That is HOW HE FEELS. Are you saying that his feelings are wrong?
> 
> He says you became all about the baby. And your job.
> 
> That is being edged out. Meaning...no time or attention left for him.
> 
> Remember me telling you days ago that a man's top need after sex is usually admiration? Every time you focused only on the baby, every time you snapped at him, every time you disrespected the work he did to support you and let you stay home, you DID NOT GIVE admiration.
> 
> So if I were you, the first thing I would do right now is stop telling us (and him) all the ways in which he has failed you, and instead focus on how you can show him admiration. For all he DOES do. Just spend a few days watching him, thinking about him, seeing all the little things he DOES do for you. Does he pick up after himself? Does he put a glass in the dishwasher? Does he play with the baby? Does he put the toilet seat down? I'm sure if you tried, you'd find a bunch of things to be happy about and less and less to be resentful of.
> 
> But what it really sounds like is you're more concerned with getting to be the victim. Where does that come from? I sense it because I do it, too. It props up my ego, even when I know it's not healthy or helpful. I have to actively stop myself.
Click to expand...


For some reason, I thought people were saying I was edging him out of our daughter's life, which was the furthest thing from the truth; I was encouraging him to do more with her. Now he does do more with her. She points at him grins and screams, "daddy!" She loves playing with him now. I can see why he would think I edged him out of my life. 

He does do a lot for the family. He really does do a lot that I appreciate. And he is a good person. He keeps the house in good repair. He plays with the children. He is very reasonable, and he doesn't get mad when someone screws up. He overlooks my faults. He is forgiving. He helps our son with homework. He is a good worker. He locks the doors and takes out the trash. He is sexy. He has abs. He did 25 pull ups when he was 20 (which he would do to surprise people). He is tall. He is handsome. He has beautiful eyes. He is very smart. He is good at math. He is a good teacher. All of his studens love him. He is very funny. Everyone likes him. He makes everyone laugh. I am proud to be with him.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Do you feel there are times you find it difficult to accept him?


----------



## wistful_thinking

Blossom Leigh said:


> Do you feel there are times you find it difficult to accept him?


Yes and no. 

Yes, a month ago; I felt like he had stopped loving me, and it was too painful and exhausting to be together. 

No, during the history of our relationship, I would feel anger toward him, but it would pass after a few minutes, and then I would repair after the anger had passed.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

wistful_thinking said:


> Yes and no.
> 
> Yes, a month ago; I felt like he had stopped loving me, and it was too painful and exhausting to be together.
> 
> No, during the history of our relationship, I would feel anger toward him, but it would pass after a few minutes, and then I would repair after the anger had passed.


yea when enough blows have piled on top of each other it becomes seriously exhausting and painful. I'm sorry y'all were ever in that spot. It shouldn't be when two people love each other so much and yet it happens. We went through it too.


----------



## wistful_thinking

Blossom Leigh said:


> wistful_thinking said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes and no.
> 
> Yes, a month ago; I felt like he had stopped loving me, and it was too painful and exhausting to be together.
> 
> No, during the history of our relationship, I would feel anger toward him, but it would pass after a few minutes, and then I would repair after the anger had passed.
> 
> 
> 
> yea when enough blows have piled on top of each other it becomes seriously exhausting and painful. I'm sorry y'all were ever in that spot. It shouldn't be when two people love each other so much and yet it happens. We went through it too.
Click to expand...


Yeah, I'm sorry that happened to you too. Life is already hard enough, and we should make it easier on eachother, not harder.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

wistful_thinking said:


> Yeah, I'm sorry that happened to you too. Life is already hard enough, and we should make it easier on eachother, not harder.


Agree :nerd:


----------



## rachaelm

wistful_thinking said:


> For some reason, I thought people were saying I was edging him out of our daughter's life, which was the furthest thing from the truth; I was encouraging him to do more with her. Now he does do more with her. She points at him grins and screams, "daddy!" She loves playing with him now. I can see why he would think I edged him out of my life.
> 
> He does do a lot for the family. He really does do a lot that I appreciate. And he is a good person. He keeps the house in good repair. He plays with the children. He is very reasonable, and he doesn't get mad when someone screws up. He overlooks my faults. He is forgiving. He helps our son with homework. He is a good worker. He locks the doors and takes out the trash. He is sexy. He has abs. He did 25 pull ups when he was 20 (which he would do to surprise people). He is tall. He is handsome. He has beautiful eyes. He is very smart. He is good at math. He is a good teacher. All of his studens love him. He is very funny. Everyone likes him. He makes everyone laugh. I am proud to be with him.


He's a teacher? College?


----------



## mr wistful

That's one of my jobs. Forgot to mention that I teach part time as an adjunct computer science instructor as needed. It's not dependable however. I could work one term and be off the next


----------



## Blossom Leigh

mr wistful said:


> That's one of my jobs. Forgot to mention that I teach part time as an adjunct computer science instructor as needed. It's not dependable however. I could work one term and be off the next


Can your hours be cut back?


----------



## mr wistful

I haven't taught in a couple terms so it's not really a problem right now. I only mentioned it because I was asked why my wife mentioned it


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Do both of yall feel you balance if hours is good now?


----------



## wistful_thinking

He is working less. However, he is still regularly working 12 hours. He is only working one job, now.

And at the same time our relationship is repairing now. We are much closer; we are both being very loving and kind to eachother, and have not fought at all. 

We are both trying to meet each other's needs and meet half way. I have been saying hey baby would you mind doing xyz instead of do xyz (which has helped him to have a much better attitude), remember to tell him all the things I appreciate and love about him and do fun things together. 

He has been being a lot more involved with the children. He spent Saturday playing duplo with them and ordered robot parts to start building another robot with our son. 

And he took us all to the aquarium today, which is a lot of work for both of us, but so fun and our son learned so much. 

We have been slowly listening to HNHN. He was always meeting some of my needs and I was always meeting some of his needs. I have been trying to tell him what I like about him, and he is trying to be more active with the children. 

The adjunct side job might seem a little crazy, but he gets paid over $50 per hour, and that money has gone right to paying down our mortgage. Also, he had been saying for years that he wanted to be a professor, and getting experience could help him switch. Now, he has changed his mind, and does not think teaching is fun.


----------



## wistful_thinking

How is it going? 2 steps forward and one step back. Things were going really well for a few weeks. 

My husband worked late last night and was gone from 5am-8pm. And then his 12 hours today. I felt totally disconnected from him at this point. 

He made a rude comment and then I said, "Fine, just let me cook and don't talk to me ever again."

He then tried to backtrack, but I was said, "no, no leave me alone; I just want to cook." Then I put the food on the table and went upstairs to calm down. 

I came downstairs and we fought throughout dinner, which was about 10 minutes. Because our children were almost finished. 

I told him that I was disappointed in him because he had promised me that he would help me when we had our baby; I felt abandoned after he did not help at all. And that I have to except that my own husband hates me. 

He said that he can do everything in the world for me, but all I remember is the stuff that he has messed up.

Then I felt sorry of bad for him because I could tell that he was racked with guilt over having failed to live up to my standards. 

Then, we put our kids to bed and talked about some of our problems productively. 

One problem that we have is we barely talk about our relationship, and when we do its usually unproductive. Another problem is that he has never been very honest about the way that he feels throughout the marriage (or even at the beginning of our relationship). Part of this is that he is a guarded person.

Part of this is that I am very skilled at arguing.

This works well when arguing about a math equation (or using logic in general), but poorly in a relationship. He would know that he can't beat me in an argument, which led to him hiding his true feelings to protect himself. In turn, our relationship became contentious; I wanted more openness. 

Now we have underlying issues that need to be addressed at some point. 

Before, earlier this week were playing boardgames each night, which we both enjoy, so that was helping us bond. 

I am also doing 2x per week yoga, biking and weight lifting.


----------



## turnera

Aside from sex, what's a man's #1 need?


----------



## wistful_thinking

turnera said:


> Aside from sex, what's a man's #1 need?


What should I do? I have to tell him what is bothering me. I don't even know what else to do. If I hold anything back, I feel further away from him. It's unfixable.


----------



## jld

wistful_thinking said:


> What should I do? I have to tell him what is bothering me. I don't even know what else to do. If I hold anything back, I feel further away from him. It's unfixable.


Don't hold anything back. Share your whole heart with him.


----------



## jld

mr wistful, how are you doing with the active listening?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Get the big red book from www.adultchildren.com 

There are so many ACOA patterns in your thinking its not even funny. Give yourself a big gift and just settle into that book for a while... It is the path to fix this one, and it is fixable.

Refresh my memory, are yall in counseling? If you are, make sure its someone well versed in codependency.


----------



## jld

turnera said:


> Aside from sex, what's a man's #1 need?


A happy wife?

Study Finds That 'Happy Wife, Happy Life' Is Pretty Dead On


----------



## farsidejunky

wistful_thinking said:


> How is it going? 2 steps forward and one step back. Things were going really well for a few weeks.
> 
> My husband worked late last night and was gone from 5am-8pm. And then his 12 hours today. I felt totally disconnected from him at this point.
> 
> He made a rude comment and then I said, "Fine, just let me cook and don't talk to me ever again."
> 
> He then tried to backtrack, but I was said, "no, no leave me alone; I just want to cook." Then I put the food on the table and went upstairs to calm down.
> 
> I came downstairs and we fought throughout dinner, which was about 10 minutes. Because our children were almost finished.
> 
> I told him that I was disappointed in him because he had promised me that he would help me when we had our baby; I felt abandoned after he did not help at all. And that I have to except that my own husband hates me.
> 
> He said that he can do everything in the world for me, but all I remember is the stuff that he has messed up.
> 
> Then I felt sorry of bad for him because I could tell that he was racked with guilt over having failed to live up to my standards.
> 
> Then, we put our kids to bed and talked about some of our problems productively.
> 
> One problem that we have is we barely talk about our relationship, and when we do its usually unproductive. Another problem is that he has never been very honest about the way that he feels throughout the marriage (or even at the beginning of our relationship). Part of this is that he is a guarded person.
> 
> Part of this is that I am very skilled at arguing.
> 
> This works well when arguing about a math equation (or using logic in general), but poorly in a relationship. He would know that he can't beat me in an argument, which led to him hiding his true feelings to protect himself. In turn, our relationship became contentious; I wanted more openness.
> 
> Now we have underlying issues that need to be addressed at some point.
> 
> Before, earlier this week were playing boardgames each night, which we both enjoy, so that was helping us bond.
> 
> I am also doing 2x per week yoga, biking and weight lifting.


Do you frequently use terms like "don't talk to me ever"?

Do you hear yourself?

I am not saying Mr. Wistful is not screwing up. But how would you feel if he said some of the things to you that you said to him?

Also, if you know you are more skilled at debate/arguing, yet you continue to do it, you realize you are bullying, right?

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Lilac23

wistful_thinking said:


> How is it going? 2 steps forward and one step back. Things were going really well for a few weeks.
> 
> My husband worked late last night and was gone from 5am-8pm. And then his 12 hours today. I felt totally disconnected from him at this point.


So a few long days negates at the office negates everything else he has been doing? You can't base your feelings on a day to day basis.



wistful_thinking said:


> He made a rude comment


What was the comment? What happened immediately before he made the comment?



wistful_thinking said:


> and then I said, "Fine, just let me cook and don't talk to me ever again."


'Dont ever talk to ever me again' is a little extreme for a critical comment, no?



wistful_thinking said:


> He then tried to backtrack, but I was said, "no, no leave me alone; I just want to cook." Then I put the food on the table and went upstairs to calm down.


He tries to apologize, you reject it and then detach from the situation.



wistful_thinking said:


> I came downstairs and we fought throughout dinner, which was about 10 minutes. Because our children were almost finished.
> 
> I told him that I was disappointed in him because he had promised me that he would help me when we had our baby; I felt abandoned after he did not help at all.


Hold grudges much? You are dragging issues from the past into the present to blame your feelings on. Am I the only one wondering what you are doing to let go of your resentment with this recurrent issue? He is helping you now when he is not at work, correct? You are going to seriously sap his motivation to change if you keep throwing last year in his face. 



wistful_thinking said:


> And that I have to except that my own husband hates me.


Melodramatic at best. 



wistful_thinking said:


> He said that he can do everything in the world for me, but all I remember is the stuff that he has messed up.


It appears he is right.



wistful_thinking said:


> Then I felt sorry of bad for him because I could tell that he was racked with guilt over having failed to live up to my standards.


:bsflag:

Did you also feel sorry for him because his wife doesn't seem capable of forgiving him? Of having empathy and compassion for him? 



wistful_thinking said:


> Then, we put our kids to bed and talked about some of our problems productively.
> 
> One problem that we have is we barely talk about our relationship, and when we do its usually unproductive. Another problem is that he has never been very honest about the way that he feels throughout the marriage (or even at the beginning of our relationship). Part of this is that he is a guarded person.


A lot of men aren't open with their feelings and when you find out something that is he is sensitive about, don't use it against him. It will only discourage him being honest with you in the future. 



wistful_thinking said:


> Part of this is that I am very skilled at arguing.


Most women are. :wink2:



wistful_thinking said:


> This works well when arguing about a math equation (or using logic in general), but poorly in a relationship.


I have a feeling that he'd beg to differ that you are the 'logical' one in arguments. Statements like 'And that I have to except that my own husband hates me' aren't really logical, are they? There is emotion written all over that one. 



wistful_thinking said:


> He would know that he can't beat me in an argument, which led to him hiding his true feelings to protect himself.


Oooooorrrrr, he decided you were to illogical and emotional to argue with that you'd never see his point of view, so arguing with you was just a waste of time and he may as well just shut up and agree if he wants to get any sleep that night.



wistful_thinking said:


> Before, earlier this week were playing boardgames each night, which we both enjoy, so that was helping us bond.


That's nice but it's probably not going to happen everyday. You're not going to get a lot of couple time every, single, day. He is still going to work long hours and you are still going to be home alone with the kids. Can you accept that and come to terms with it? 



wistful_thinking said:


> I am also doing 2x per week yoga, biking and weight lifting.


How goes the hunt for other 'mom' friends? The gym is nice and can be a stress reliever but I really think you are struggling with some loneliness and need some female friends who are in similar situations as you. Someone you can talk to on the phone and b!tch about toddlers with, or kid that is picking your kid at school? You need another female in your life that you can talk to about things that you can't talk to your husband about. Cramps, mood swings, saggy boobs, what color highlights you should get in your hair, if you're too old to wear that miniskirt. Things men are completely unequipped to talk about! :grin2: Married, stay at home or mostly at home moms with kids close to your kids in age. Try working out at different times when most other people would be at work, maybe you'll meet some stay at home moms at those times? Have you found some 'Mommy and Me' activities you could do with your youngest child? 

@Mrwistful Your side? What remark did you say and why did you say it?


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> Do you frequently use terms like "don't talk to me ever"?
> 
> Do you hear yourself?
> 
> I am not saying Mr. Wistful is not screwing up. But how would you feel if he said some of the things to you that you said to him?
> 
> Also, if you know you are more skilled at debate/arguing, yet you continue to do it, you realize you are bullying, right?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


I don't think being the better debater makes her a bully. If there is an imbalance of power in the relationship weighted towards her, and she uses that power selfishly, and to harm mr wistful, then that would be bullying.

Mrs Wistful, is there an imbalance of power in the relationship? Do you feel that either you or your husband has more power?

If one of you does, it is that person's moral responsibility to use that power for the good of the relationship.

Your husband appears to have the greater earning power in the marriage. He could leave you and do fine for himself. You would probably only be granted temporary rehabilitative alimony.

Remember that Gottmann said women are often responsible for harsh start up in arguments, but that if men respond with kindness, patience, and respect, the woman will soften? 

That is what active listening can do, mr wistful. It can soften your wife's frustration. Those angry words from her are likely all about her frustration with being home all day with little kids. 

Instead of becoming fearful of your wife's anger, how about reaching out to her as Gottman suggests?


----------



## jld

From Gottman's 7 Principles for Making Marriage Work:

_To resolve conflict:

*Soften your start up approach (women are usually responsible for harsh start-up but husband can make sure she is feeling known, respected, and loved and that he accepts her influence and her stance will soften)*
Learn to make and receive repair attempts
Soothe yourself and each other when emotions get high
Compromise
Be tolerant of each other's faults
Build "we-ness", make sure your partner comes before anyone else
Work as a team on financial issues
Keep working on your unresolvable conflicts. Couples who are demanding of their marriage are more likely to have deeply satisfying unions than those who lower their expectations._


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> I don't think being the better debater makes her a bully. If there is an imbalance of power in the relationship weighted towards her, and she uses that power selfishly, and to harm mr wistful, then that would be bullying.
> 
> Mrs Wistful, is there an imbalance of power in the relationship? Do you feel that either you or your husband has more power?
> 
> If one of you does, it is that person's moral responsibility to use that power for the good of the relationship.
> 
> Your husband appears to have the greater earning power in the marriage. He could leave you and do fine for himself. You would probably only be granted temporary rehabilitative alimony.
> 
> Remember that Gottmann said women are often responsible for harsh start up in arguments, but that if men respond with kindness, patience, and respect, the woman will soften?
> 
> That is what active listening can do, mr wistful. It can soften your wife's frustration. Those angry words from her are likely all about her frustration with being home all day with little kids.
> 
> Instead of becoming fearful of your wife's anger, how about reaching out to her as Gottman suggests?


Bully probably wasn't the best choice of words. But something is off when she knows she can resort to that tool to shut down whatever he may want to bring to the argument. Think about that for a moment. She knows she can out argue him, so she uses it to shut down whatever concerns he may have, even if they're legitimate. It is absolutely killing transparency. 

Maybe I am just projecting a bit here, but my wife used to do that to me pretty consistently. My solution was to simply not argue with her.

Mr wistful does need to work on his active listening, no doubt. He also needs to work on growing a spine, grabbing his nuts, or whatever other colorful language you would like to use. 

She needs to work on her anger. That is hers, and hers alone, to own. Convincing her otherwise is enabling her to continue her contribution to their dysfunction.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## jld

Mr and Mrs Wistful, I would like to share a summary of Gottman's relationship research with you:


12 Amazing Relationship Truths (as discovered by John Gottman, a marriage researcher at U of WA)

_1. Fighting doesn't break up marriages. Losing your friendship does. If you focus on feeding your connection in the good times, you will have the "emotional bank account" in place to make it through the difficult times. Do you have positive sentiment override or negative sentiment override? It's not the fight that counts, but the repair attempt and how it is received. The strength of your friendship will determine how successful repair attempt are.

2. Arguments don't hurt your relationship, it's how you argue. Harsh set-up, followed by criticism, contempt, defensiveness, or stonewalling (ignoring, shutting the other person out) can lead to flooding (becoming shell-shocked and overwhelmed and disengaging emotionally).

3. Successful repair attempts are the key. These are more successful if the couple are intimately familiar with each other's lives on a daily basis. They have a richly detailed "love map" of the other person (where you store all the relevant info about your partner's life).

They remember major events in each other's history, keep updating the information as their partners world changes, know each other's goals in life, worries, hopes, and fears. From this knowledge springs not only love, but the fortitude to weather stressful events and conflict.

They are in touch, not just with the outlines of each other's lives but with each other's deepest longings, beliefs and fears and no matter how busy they are, they make each other their priority. (Even over family of origin. He puts her first before his mom and makes it clear to all involved.)

4. Two of the most crucial elements for lasting love are fondness and admiration. You have to remain aware of how crucial fondness and admiration are to the friendship that is at the core of a good marriage. Fondness and admiration are the antidotes to what Gottman calls "The Four Horses of the Apocolypse": contempt, criticism, defensiveness, and stonewalling.

5. Real life romance is fueled by hundreds of small ways that you turn toward each other rather than away. Daily small connections keep the couple emotionally engaged and build up an "emotional savings account" that can be drawn from in times of stress. Turning toward your mate in the little things is the key to long lasting romance.

In a couple, partners make "bids" for their partner's attention, affection, humor, or support. People either turn toward one another after these "bids", or turn away. Turning toward is the basis for emotional connection, romance and passion. Turning away (ignoring) a bid kills intimacy. The relationship won't survive. Often, a partner's protest is simply a bid for more connection. When the other partner ignores it, anger increases and distance is created.

The first step in turning toward each other more is simply to be aware of how crucial these mundane moments are, not just to the stability of your relationship, but to it's ongoing sense of romance. Often, a person in the couple turns away, not out of malice but out of mindlessness. They must realize the importance of little moments and gestures and pay attention to doing them.

6. Things that fill the emotional bank account (things that say, "I love you and I want more of you")

exercising together
playing board games
celebrating milestones
traveling together
cooking together
eating meals and each talking about your day to keep updated
talking by open fire
reading together out loud

7. Men who allow their wives to influence them have happier marriages and are less likely to divorce than men who resist their wives' influence. The happiest, most stable marriages were the ones in which the husband treated his wife with respect and didn't resist power sharing and decision making with her but actively searched for common ground with her. (Stonewalling and refusing to plan things out with her is a power play. The one who says the least has the most power. When a man ignores her influence, it creates instability in the relationship and the marriage will be damaged).

Women tend to allow their husbands to influence them. The research bears out that she can, in anger, escalate into negativity and it won't harm the marriage but if the husband does it (through stonewalling or bullying) it does harm their marriage. If the husband accepts her influence, the wife is less likely to be harsh when something causes stress. If she feels hopeless about being able to influence him, she will be "triggered" and her negativity will escalate.

When a husband accepts his wifes influence, his open attitude heightens the positive in his relationship by strengthening his friendship with his wife. It makes it easier for him to deepen his love map of her, bolster fondness and admiraton and turn toward his wife. This helps him learn from his wife many of the emotional skills that she learned growing up and he didn't. Studies show that from a very young age (1 1/2 years), boys will accept influence only from boys when they play and girls accept influence from boys and girls equally.

8. The emotionally intelligent husband:

Learns how to connect with his wife
Chooses "us" over "me"
Makes his career less of a priority than his marriage
Makes a detailed map of his wife's world
Keeps in daily touch with his admiration and fondness of her
Communicates his admiration and fondness of her by turning toward her in a myriad of daily actions
This leads to a meaningful and rich life
Having this happy home base makes it possible for him to create and work effectively
Because he is so connected to his mate, she will not only come to him when she is troubled but also when she is delighted

9. More than 80% of the time, it is the wife who brings up sticky marital issues, while the husband tries to avoid discussing them. This isn't a symptom of a troubled marriage- it's true in most happy marriages as well.

10. Marital conflicts fall into two categories: Perpetual (unsolvable) and Resolvable. Couples can get gridlocked over perpetual problems until they realize that unrequited dreams are at the core of every gridlocked conflict. The endless arguement symbolizes some profound difference between them that needs to be addressed before the problem can be put in it's place (and a compromise reached).

In gridlock:
Conflict makes you feel rejected by your partner
You talk but make no headway
You become entrenched in your position and unwilling to budge
When you do discuss it, you end up more frustrated and hurt
You start to villify each other
Humor and amusement and affection disappear
Become less and less willing to compromise
Finally, disengage emotionally

11. The basis for coping effectively is communicating a basic acceptance of your partner's personality. People can only change if they feel they are basically liked and accepted as they are. To be able to repair what's already happened, you have to forgive each other for past differences and give up past resentments.

12. To resolve conflict:

Soften your start up approach (women are usually responsible for harsh start-up but husband can make sure she is feeling known, respected, and loved and that he accepts her influence and her stance will soften)
Learn to make and receive repair attempts
Soothe yourself and each other when emotions get high
Compromise
Be tolerant of each other's faults
Build "we-ness", make sure your partner comes before anyone else
Work as a team on financial issues
Keep working on your unresolvable conflicts. Couples who are demanding of their marriage are more likely to have deeply satisfying unions than those who lower their expectations._

Condensed from The Seven Principles of Making a Marriage Work by John Gottman.


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## jld

farsidejunky said:


> Bully probably wasn't the best choice of words. But something is off when she knows she can resort to that tool to shut down whatever he may want to bring to the argument. Think about that for a moment. She knows she can out argue him, so she uses it to shut down whatever concerns he may have, even if they're legitimate. It is absolutely killing transparency.
> 
> Maybe I am just projecting a bit here, but my wife used to do that to me pretty consistently. My solution was to simply not argue with her.
> 
> Mr wistful does need to work on his active listening, no doubt. He also needs to work on growing a spine, grabbing his nuts, or whatever other colorful language you would like to use.
> 
> She needs to work on her anger. That is hers, and hers alone, to own. Convincing her otherwise is enabling her to continue her contribution to their dysfunction.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Her anger can be diffused through his active listening. That is why I am encouraging him to develop those skills.

Far, do you remember saying once that your wife showed you through a very good argument how what you were doing was not helping the marriage? I can't remember what she specifically referred to, but I remember your saying it. You said you had no response because she was right.


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## farsidejunky

jld said:


> Her anger can be diffused through his active listening. That is why I am encouraging him to develop those skills.
> 
> Far, do you remember saying once that your wife showed you through a very good argument how what you were doing was not helping the marriage? I can't remember what she specifically referred to, but I remember your saying it. You said you had no response because she was right.


I am open to my wife's influence most of the time. I use active listening with her. That does not give her an excuse to make her anger my fault, nor my responsibility.

I would be wholeheartedly behind you if you were encouraging as much accountability from her you are from him. Not surprising.



Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## jld

farsidejunky said:


> I am open to my wife's influence most of the time. I use active listening with her. That does not give her an excuse to make her anger my fault, nor my responsibility.
> 
> I would be wholeheartedly behind you if you were encouraging as much accountability from her you are from him. *Not surprising.*
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Far, look at the bolded. What is your intent there? How does it add to the discussion?

Also, a woman's anger can promote growth in a relationship. I remember reading that when I was reading Gottman. It uncovers issues that need to be resolved in a relationship.


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## farsidejunky

jld said:


> Far, look at the bolded. What is your intent there? How does it add to the discussion?
> 
> Also, a woman's anger can promote growth in a relationship. I remember reading that when I was reading Gottman. It uncovers issues that need to be resolved in a relationship.


It wasn't nice. From solely that aspect, I apologize.

But it is fair and accurate; thread after thread. I can't recall ever seeing you promote accountability from a woman.

A woman's anger can promote growth in a relationship. It can also shut down debate, which she has indicated she knows and does...deliberately.

Wistful, place accountability solely at your husband's feet at the peril of your marriage.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Blossom Leigh

Never forget the emotional leverage a woman has on a man..... If you are talking power imbalance, women always carry the emotional power imo... therefore her words count, heavily.


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## Blossom Leigh

Lilac23 said:


> So a few long days negates at the office negates everything else he has been doing? You can't base your feelings on a day to day basis.
> 
> 
> 
> What was the comment? What happened immediately before he made the comment?
> 
> 
> 
> 'Dont ever talk to ever me again' is a little extreme for a critical comment, no?
> 
> 
> 
> He tries to apologize, you reject it and then detach from the situation.
> 
> 
> 
> Hold grudges much? You are dragging issues from the past into the present to blame your feelings on. Am I the only one wondering what you are doing to let go of your resentment with this recurrent issue? He is helping you now when he is not at work, correct? You are going to seriously sap his motivation to change if you keep throwing last year in his face.
> 
> 
> 
> Melodramatic at best.
> 
> 
> 
> It appears he is right.
> 
> 
> 
> :bsflag:
> 
> Did you also feel sorry for him because his wife doesn't seem capable of forgiving him? Of having empathy and compassion for him?
> 
> 
> 
> A lot of men aren't open with their feelings and when you find out something that is he is sensitive about, don't use it against him. It will only discourage him being honest with you in the future.
> 
> 
> 
> Most women are. :wink2:
> 
> 
> 
> I have a feeling that he'd beg to differ that you are the 'logical' one in arguments. Statements like 'And that I have to except that my own husband hates me' aren't really logical, are they? There is emotion written all over that one.
> 
> 
> 
> Oooooorrrrr, he decided you were to illogical and emotional to argue with that you'd never see his point of view, so arguing with you was just a waste of time and he may as well just shut up and agree if he wants to get any sleep that night.
> 
> 
> 
> That's nice but it's probably not going to happen everyday. You're not going to get a lot of couple time every, single, day. He is still going to work long hours and you are still going to be home alone with the kids. Can you accept that and come to terms with it?
> 
> 
> 
> How goes the hunt for other 'mom' friends? The gym is nice and can be a stress reliever but I really think you are struggling with some loneliness and need some female friends who are in similar situations as you. Someone you can talk to on the phone and b!tch about toddlers with, or kid that is picking your kid at school? You need another female in your life that you can talk to about things that you can't talk to your husband about. Cramps, mood swings, saggy boobs, what color highlights you should get in your hair, if you're too old to wear that miniskirt. Things men are completely unequipped to talk about! :grin2: Married, stay at home or mostly at home moms with kids close to your kids in age. Try working out at different times when most other people would be at work, maybe you'll meet some stay at home moms at those times? Have you found some 'Mommy and Me' activities you could do with your youngest child?
> 
> @Mrwistful Your side? What remark did you say and why did you say it?


Thanks for posting this. You spelled out the ACOA patterns without using their terminology. I don't have a lot of time for TAM right now, but with your post and the big red book from ACOA, she will piece some things together that will help her marriage tremendously.


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## jld

farsidejunky said:


> It wasn't nice. From solely that aspect, I apologize.
> 
> But it is fair and accurate; thread after thread. I can't recall ever seeing you promote accountability from a woman.
> 
> A woman's anger can promote growth in a relationship. It can also shut down debate, which she has indicated she knows and does...deliberately.
> 
> Wistful, place accountability solely at your husband's feet at the peril of your marriage.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Thank you for your apology. 

I just shared something from Gottman that said women are often responsible for harsh start up. That is telling her that a different start up could ease the transition to discussing difficult subjects.

I also said that the person with more power in the relationship has the moral responsibility to use that power for the good of the relationship. 

Mrs Wistful, if this person in your marriage is you, please consider taking what Gottman says to men to possibly be for you, instead. You be the person to initiate active listening. You be the one to make him feel safe and listened to and understood. You be the one to avoid stonewalling and bullying, if that is indeed what you are doing.


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## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> Thank you for your apology.
> 
> I just shared something from Gottman that said women are often responsible for harsh start up. That is telling her that a different start up could ease the transition to discussing difficult subjects.


100% agree

Finally we have common ground


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## Blossom Leigh

And with that, I gotta go... super busy today


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## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> Never forget the emotional leverage a woman has on a man..... If you are talking power imbalance,* women always carry the emotional power* imo... therefore her words count, heavily.


Not necessarily. My husband has much more emotional power than I do, mainly because he does not give me that power over him. He has more power in nearly every way in our marriage. 

He knows this, and understands it is his responsibility to use his power wisely. And to correct that to the best of his ability when he does not.


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## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> Not necessarily. My husband has much more emotional power than I do, mainly because he does not give me that power over him. He has more power in nearly every way in our marriage.
> 
> He knows this, and understands it is his responsibility to use his power wisely. And to correct that to the best of his ability when he does not.


Women can take a man down to his knees with her words when she already has his heart. 

Dug has a breaking point..

You just haven't hit it yet. Doesn't mean its not there.

Gotta go.


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## mr wistful

I feel like i* have been bending over backwards trying to do everything for the past few weeks.

Tuesday my boss wanted to take us out for a drink after work. My wife told me to go. I was home at 7PM. I came upstairs to spend time with her, and I felt like she responded with resentment because she was planning on relaxing, and me showing up ruined her plans.

Yesterday I got up at 4:30 walked a mile and a half to the bus got to work at 6:30. I left work at 4:30. I got home at 5:47 according to the text message I sent just as I got home. I thought it was going to be a great night. I found out yesterday that I won an award at work that comes with cash, and also that I'm going to get a $10,000 bonus. I figured no reason to be upset about that. 

My wife asked me to buy a new gift card to chick fil a because we buy gift cards online to our favorite restaurants because raise.com gives you a discount.* I asked what budget category it was coming out of, and I will admit I said it in a rough tone. I didn't may to ask harshly, and I'm sorry that I did. However that harsh tone ruined or night.

For the next hour I was treated to my wife telling me she is always alone, just want to work, why is she even trying etc.* I tried to be understanding. She was stressed out. She had the kids for most of the last two days, and I tried to apologize several times for using a harsh tone. I felt like she wasn't having any of it. She also said she just has to accept that she is alone. 

*This morning I told her after you drop the kids off at school come upstairs, and we can talk. I am working from home. That was met with we never have time to talk because you want to work. I felt like this is a good example of pushing the blame off on me. I have to work. I feel like she was saying that we can never talk because all I want to do is work. I have to work if I don't we have no income. It is getting less stressful we just hired two new people, and that is going to make things easier, and at the same time I am doing what I have to not what I want to, and I feel like my working was being blamed for the reason we can't talk hence it is my fault

I feel like this is boiling down to the fact that she wants me to open up to her more. I have always been very guarded, and not very good at sharing my feelings. We talked after the argument, and I think it went well. I tried to open up. I told her that I feel like 90 percent of the blame for our problems get pushed of on me, and that this has always seemed to happen with us. My wife is very skilled at arguing, and debating, and can usually argue any point and win. I can't compete with that, few people can and so I just take the blame. I know this isn't right, but I feltvlike it brought peace. 

I know I need to open up more and not take so much blame. I love my wife dearly, and at the same time. I feel like she has terrible letting go of my past mistakes, and I feel a lot of guilt for our problems.

I am not saying any of this because I hold a grudge or want sympathy. I don't. My wife always has been a very good and loving person, and I hold no grudge against her. She does a lot for me. She has made mistakes, and so have I. I believe that we can move past all of this. Please don't misconstrue this as an attempt to attack her. This was merely an attempt to state what I perceive to be issues, and to tell my side.

To my wife no matter what happens I will always love you. I love you unconditionally. I hold no grudges against you.* I only want to find a way to move past our issues. I believe that we where making great progress, and we can continue to make progress. I promise to try and be open more, and try and provide you with more intimate conversation. You are and always will be my best friend, and the love of my life.


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## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> Women can take a man down to his knees with her words when she already has his heart.
> 
> Dug has a breaking point..
> 
> You just haven't hit it yet. Doesn't mean its not there.
> 
> Gotta go.


I don't think it is there. Dug is a very secure man.

And I am not like that, anyway.


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## jld

mr wistful said:


> I feel like i* have been bending over backwards trying to do everything for the past few weeks.
> 
> Tuesday my boss wanted to take us out for a drink after work. My wife told me to go. I was home at 7PM. I came upstairs to spend time with her, and I felt like she responded with resentment because she was planning on relaxing, and me showing up ruined her plans. She is probably just stressed out from being with the kids by herself so much.
> 
> Yesterday I got up at 4:30 walked a mile and a half to the bus got to work at 6:30. I left work at 4:30. I got home at 5:47 according to the text message I sent just as I got home. I thought it was going to be a great night. I found out yesterday that I won an award at work that comes with cash, and also that I'm going to get a $10,000 bonus. I figured no reason to be upset about that.
> 
> My wife asked me to buy a new gift card to chick fil a because we buy gift cards online to our favorite restaurants because raise.com gives you a discount.* I asked what budget category it was coming out of, and I will admit I said it in a rough tone. I didn't may to ask harshly, and I'm sorry that I did. However that harsh tone ruined or night.
> 
> For the next hour I was treated to You sound resentful. You say you don't hold grudges, but that sounds grudge-like to me my wife telling me she is always alone, just want to work, why is she even trying etc.* I tried to be understanding. She was stressed out. She had the kids for most of the last two days, and I tried to apologize several times for using a harsh tone. I felt like she wasn't having any of it. She also said she just has to accept that she is alone. How about using active listening here? Do you know how to do it?
> 
> *This morning I told her after you drop the kids off at school come upstairs, and we can talk. I am working from home. That was met with we never have time to talk because you want to work. I felt like this is a good example of pushing the blame off on me. I have to work. I feel like she was saying that we can never talk because all I want to do is work. I have to work if I don't we have no income. It is getting less stressful we just hired two new people, and that is going to make things easier, and at the same time I am doing what I have to not what I want to, and I feel like my working was being blamed for the reason we can't talk hence it is my fault Again, you sound resentful. You realize she is speaking out of emotion, right? So address the emotion with active listening. Once she feels heard, you can address the more rational side of the equation.
> 
> I feel like this is boiling down to the fact that she wants me to open up to her more. I have always been very guarded, and not very good at sharing my feelings. We talked after the argument, and I think it went well. I tried to open up. I told her that I feel like 90 percent of the blame for our problems get pushed of on me, and that this has always seemed to happen with us. This makes me think she is not really the dominant partner. She seems to want leadership from you. Active listening is a good example of exercising leadership. My wife is very skilled at arguing, and debating, and can usually argue any point and win. I can't compete with that You don't need to; use active listening instead., few people can and so I just take the blame. I know this isn't right, but I feltvlike it brought peace. You need to have your feelings addressed, too. But when she is upset, she is not likely to be able to hear you until she feels heard herself.
> 
> I know I need to open up more and not take so much blame. You need to first seek to understand, and then seek to be understood. Both are important if you want to resolve conflict. I love my wife dearly, and at the same time. I feel like she has terrible letting go of my past mistakes, and I feel a lot of guilt for our problems. How are you at forgiving yourself, mr wistful? That can be hard for a lot of us.
> 
> I am not saying any of this because I hold a grudge or want sympathy. I do think you are resentful, and may be holding grudges, as I indicated above. I don't. My wife always has been a very good and loving person, and I hold no grudge against her. She does a lot for me. Reflect on this when the resentment comes up. Your feelings need to be addressed, too, but it can be done with more kindness when your attitude reflects gratitude for what she has done for you. She has made mistakes, and so have I. I believe that we can move past all of this. Please don't misconstrue this as an attempt to attack her. This was merely an attempt to state what I perceive to be issues, and to tell my side.
> 
> To my wife no matter what happens I will always love you. I love you unconditionally. I hold no grudges against you.* I only want to find a way to move past our issues. Please read the 12 Rules for Relationships that I posted earlier. Gottmann researched marriage for decades. He has much for us to learn from. I believe that we where making great progress, and we can continue to make progress. I promise to try and be open more, and try and provide you with more intimate conversation. You are and always will be my best friend, and the love of my life.


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## turnera

wistful_thinking said:


> My husband worked late last night and was gone from 5am-8pm. And then his 12 hours today. I felt totally disconnected from him at this point. [So he is working himself to the bone - FOR YOU - and all you see is that YOU feel disconnected. Not that he is exhausting himself to make money for you. Not that he is tired. Not that he feels disconnected. You have a hard time empathizing OR admiring him (hint: Admiration is a man's #1 need aside from sex).]
> 
> He made a rude comment [Out of the blue? Just like that? Or was it in response to something YOU did or said? We can't help if you're not honest.] and then I said, "Fine, just let me cook and *don't talk to me ever again*." [Really? Ever again? That's something a child would say. Why do you think you said that? Because you wanted to elicit a response from him; you wanted to come out on top; you wanted him to feel guilt; you wanted him to beg forgiveness and give you the 'power.' ]
> 
> He then tried to backtrack, but I was said, "no, no leave me alone; I just want to cook." Then I put the food on the table and went upstairs to calm down.
> 
> I came downstairs and we fought throughout dinner, [You could have chosen not to fight. But you wanted to win. Be right.] which was about 10 minutes. Because our children were almost finished.
> 
> I told him that I was disappointed in him because he had promised me that he would help me when we had our baby; [Lack of admiration. And I thought you two already COVERED this topic of what he did BEFORE and you agreed to move on from it. But as soon as you're feeling 'disconnected,' it's cool to throw that at him? How can he trust you to keep your word?] I felt abandoned after he did not help at all. And that I have to except that my own husband hates me. [Hates you? Really? Again, childish. You KNOW he doesn't hate you, so the only reason you would have said this was to (1) hurt him and (2) make him apologize and make you 'right.']
> 
> He said that he can do everything in the world for me, but all I remember is the stuff that he has messed up. [He's right. You two agreed to move on from that, but you're all too ready to throw the past in his face. That's how men give up on marriages and leave.]
> 
> Then I felt sorry of bad for him because I could tell that he was racked with guilt over having failed to live up to my standards. [Are you living up to his?]
> 
> Then, we put our kids to bed and talked about some of our problems productively.
> 
> One problem that we have is we barely talk about our relationship, and when we do its usually unproductive. Another problem is that he has never been very honest about the way that he feels throughout the marriage (or even at the beginning of our relationship). Part of this is that he is a guarded person. [Do you blame him? You make it unsafe to talk to you. My H criticizes everything I do, so guess who I don't talk to? Why would I?]
> 
> Part of this is that I am very skilled at arguing. [You sound like you're proud of that? Why is that?]
> 
> This works well when arguing about a math equation (or using logic in general), but poorly in a relationship. He would know that he can't beat me in an argument, which led to him hiding his true feelings to protect himself. In turn, our relationship became contentious; I wanted more openness. [So you see the solution to that, right? Stop criticizing, stop trying to win, stop bringing up the past, start admiring, and stop punishing when he tells you how he feels. Sounds like a lot of work on YOUR side of the street, to me.]
> 
> I am also doing 2x per week yoga, biking and weight lifting. [Since he's working 60-80 hours a week, what are you doing with all that spare time you have to make HIS life easier? Do you take him lunch? Do you prepare special treats? Do you give him a shoulder massage when he gets home? Do you engage the kids elsewhere so he has a quiet place to come home to for at least 20 minutes? Do you encourage him to hang out with his friends so he can recharge?]


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## jld

mr wistful, it might be helpful for you to write a list of expectations for your wife. She could look at it and see which ones she could do that she is not already. If there are too many, and she cannot fulfill them, you two may have hard choices to make.

mrs wistful, if you are a skilled arguer/debater, you may want to consider law school at some point. People give people who have these skills a hard time, but they can be useful, not only in law, but in the business world. Negotiation comes to mind.


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## wistful_thinking

Yeah we had a couple of good weeks, but then he was doing his old habit of coming home late and having a bad attitude about being asked to do something very simple and small when I had done almost everything, which seems unloving to me. 

So I said great don't do it. I don't care about it, and just don't talk to me at all. And never talk to me again (I know rude parting comment).

That is why I felt like I didn't even want to talk to him because I was way too angry, and I didn't want to say something really mean, which I would regret. 

When you are going to have such a bad attitude after coming home after 2 days of working, then why do I even bother? Why even do anything when I am only going to get a bad attitude in return?

Even he realized when he heard himself that his tone was rude. 

I don't see how this is bringing up the past when he is doing the same things as last year, barely helping and having a bad attitude about it. 

At least, that is how I felt in the moment. 

Now, I have to figure out what to do next.


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## farsidejunky

Turnera's post sums up perfectly what I failed to communicate well when I used the word bully.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## jld

wistful_thinking said:


> Yeah we had a couple of good weeks, but then he was doing his old habit of coming home late and having a bad attitude about being asked to do something very simple and small when I had done almost everything, which seems unloving to me. That must have been frustrating to you.
> 
> So I said great don't do it. I don't care about it, and just don't talk to me at all. And never talk to me again (I know rude parting comment). That sounds like your frustration talking.
> 
> That is why I felt like I didn't even want to talk to him because I was way too angry, and *I didn't want to say something really mean*, which I would regret. Did you explain this to him?
> 
> When you are going to have such a bad attitude after coming home after 2 days of working, then why do I even bother? Why even do anything when I am only going to get a bad attitude in return? You sound very hurt, wt. The thing is, your husband sounds very sensitive. Either he needs to become able to hear your message without taking your words personally, or you need to soften your words so he is more able to hear them. Or some combination. Do you think that would be possible?
> 
> Even he realized when he heard himself that his tone was rude. It is good he acknowledged that.
> 
> I don't see how this is bringing up the past when he is doing the same things as last year, barely helping and having a bad attitude about it. I think it is okay to bring up whatever you feel. Otherwise you risk building resentment. And resentment can poison relationships.
> 
> At least, that is how I felt in the moment.
> 
> Now, I have to figure out what to do next. What are your ideas?


----------



## jld

Mr Wistful, I don't know how much this applies to your situation, but I would like to share something my husband did when our kids were all younger, and still often does now, that might help you.

My husband wanted lots of kids, and wanted them breastfed and homeschooled. To that end, whenever I would call him during the day, half out of my mind because of whatever, he was very positive with me. Told me what a hard job it is to be a sahm, told me I was doing great at it. He was very positive, very empathetic. 

That kind of empathy, that belief in the value of what your wife is doing, keeps a sahm of little kids going. The more empathetic a husband can be, even when he cannot change the reality of his work obligations or the difficulty of life with little ones, makes a huge difference in a wife's feelings towards her husband.

And Mrs Wistful, there is a light at the end of the tunnel. My kids are old enough now that I can sometimes go shopping alone, or have lunch out, or just do other fun things by myself or with a friend. And next month I am going on vacation with my daughter while my husband and the older boys take care of the younger kids. 

There is a big payoff to a husband's having a successful career, and to a wife's devotion to childrearing. Or switch it around if you want. But it takes time to get to that payoff. 

Keep communicating to your husband, and try to soften your start up. Your husband seems sensitive. He probably cannot change. But if you stay with him, when the kids are grown, I bet you will be doing a lot of fun things, too.


----------



## wistful_thinking

turnera said:


> wistful_thinking said:
> 
> 
> 
> My husband worked late last night and was gone from 5am-8pm. And then his 12 hours today. I felt totally disconnected from him at this point. [So he is working himself to the bone - FOR YOU - and all you see is that YOU feel disconnected. Not that he is exhausting himself to make money for you. Not that he is tired. Not that he feels disconnected. You have a hard time empathizing OR admiring him (hint: Admiration is a man's #1 need aside from sex).]
> 
> He made a rude comment [Out of the blue? Just like that? Or was it in response to something YOU did or said? We can't help if you're not honest.] and then I said, "Fine, just let me cook and *don't talk to me ever again*." [Really? Ever again? That's something a child would say. Why do you think you said that? Because you wanted to elicit a response from him; you wanted to come out on top; you wanted him to feel guilt; you wanted him to beg forgiveness and give you the 'power.' ]
> 
> He then tried to backtrack, but I was said, "no, no leave me alone; I just want to cook." Then I put the food on the table and went upstairs to calm down.
> 
> I came downstairs and we fought throughout dinner, [You could have chosen not to fight. But you wanted to win. Be right.] which was about 10 minutes. Because our children were almost finished.
> 
> I told him that I was disappointed in him because he had promised me that he would help me when we had our baby; [Lack of admiration. And I thought you two already COVERED this topic of what he did BEFORE and you agreed to move on from it. But as soon as you're feeling 'disconnected,' it's cool to throw that at him? How can he trust you to keep your word?] I felt abandoned after he did not help at all. And that I have to except that my own husband hates me. [Hates you? Really? Again, childish. You KNOW he doesn't hate you, so the only reason you would have said this was to (1) hurt him and (2) make him apologize and make you 'right.']
> 
> He said that he can do everything in the world for me, but all I remember is the stuff that he has messed up. [He's right. You two agreed to move on from that, but you're all too ready to throw the past in his face. That's how men give up on marriages and leave.]
> 
> Then I felt sorry of bad for him because I could tell that he was racked with guilt over having failed to live up to my standards. [Are you living up to his?]
> 
> Then, we put our kids to bed and talked about some of our problems productively.
> 
> One problem that we have is we barely talk about our relationship, and when we do its usually unproductive. Another problem is that he has never been very honest about the way that he feels throughout the marriage (or even at the beginning of our relationship). Part of this is that he is a guarded person. [Do you blame him? You make it unsafe to talk to you. My H criticizes everything I do, so guess who I don't talk to? Why would I?]
> 
> Part of this is that I am very skilled at arguing. [You sound like you're proud of that? Why is that?]
> 
> This works well when arguing about a math equation (or using logic in general), but poorly in a relationship. He would know that he can't beat me in an argument, which led to him hiding his true feelings to protect himself. In turn, our relationship became contentious; I wanted more openness. [So you see the solution to that, right? Stop criticizing, stop trying to win, stop bringing up the past, start admiring, and stop punishing when he tells you how he feels. Sounds like a lot of work on YOUR side of the street, to me.]
> 
> I am also doing 2x per week yoga, biking and weight lifting. [Since he's working 60-80 hours a week, what are you doing with all that spare time you have to make HIS life easier? Do you take him lunch? Do you prepare special treats? Do you give him a shoulder massage when he gets home? Do you engage the kids elsewhere so he has a quiet place to come home to for at least 20 minutes? Do you encourage him to hang out with his friends so he can recharge?]
Click to expand...


Did you seriously just ask me if I bring him lunch?


----------



## farsidejunky

wistful_thinking said:


> Did you seriously just ask me if I bring him lunch?


And this captures +/- one half of the problem in your dynamic.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## jld

farsidejunky said:


> And this captures +/- one half of the problem in your dynamic.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


You might want to elaborate on that.


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> You might want to elaborate on that.


It is a general attitude that she is owed.

What he is doing is not enough.

And it goes right back to the very post that Wistful was responding to from Turnera.

And instead of being introspective about what T said, she responded by sitting her butt firmly in the victim chair.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> It is a general attitude that she is owed.
> 
> What he is doing is not enough.
> 
> And it goes right back to the very post that Wistful was responding to from Turnera.
> 
> And instead of being introspective about what T said, she responded by sitting her butt firmly in the victim chair.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Hmm. I did not see it that way. I think T has one way of seeing how a marriage should be, and WT has another. 

Also, WT is about 30 years younger than T. That may affect how they view this.


----------



## mr wistful

jld said:


> mr wistful said:
> 
> 
> 
> I feel like i* have been bending over backwards trying to do everything for the past few weeks.
> 
> Tuesday my boss wanted to take us out for a drink after work. My wife told me to go. I was home at 7PM. I came upstairs to spend time with her, and I felt like she responded with resentment because she was planning on relaxing, and me showing up ruined her plans. She is probably just stressed out from being with the kids by herself so much.
> 
> Yesterday I got up at 4:30 walked a mile and a half to the bus got to work at 6:30. I left work at 4:30. I got home at 5:47 according to the text message I sent just as I got home. I thought it was going to be a great night. I found out yesterday that I won an award at work that comes with cash, and also that I'm going to get a $10,000 bonus. I figured no reason to be upset about that.
> 
> My wife asked me to buy a new gift card to chick fil a because we buy gift cards online to our favorite restaurants because raise.com gives you a discount.* I asked what budget category it was coming out of, and I will admit I said it in a rough tone. I didn't may to ask harshly, and I'm sorry that I did. However that harsh tone ruined or night.
> 
> For the next hour I was treated to You sound resentful. You say you don't hold grudges, but that sounds grudge-like to me my wife telling me she is always alone, just want to work, why is she even trying etc.* I tried to be understanding. She was stressed out. She had the kids for most of the last two days, and I tried to apologize several times for using a harsh tone. I felt like she wasn't having any of it. She also said she just has to accept that she is alone. How about using active listening here? Do you know how to do it?
> 
> *This morning I told her after you drop the kids off at school come upstairs, and we can talk. I am working from home. That was met with we never have time to talk because you want to work. I felt like this is a good example of pushing the blame off on me. I have to work. I feel like she was saying that we can never talk because all I want to do is work. I have to work if I don't we have no income. It is getting less stressful we just hired two new people, and that is going to make things easier, and at the same time I am doing what I have to not what I want to, and I feel like my working was being blamed for the reason we can't talk hence it is my fault Again, you sound resentful. You realize she is speaking out of emotion, right? So address the emotion with active listening. Once she feels heard, you can address the more rational side of the equation.
> 
> I feel like this is boiling down to the fact that she wants me to open up to her more. I have always been very guarded, and not very good at sharing my feelings. We talked after the argument, and I think it went well. I tried to open up. I told her that I feel like 90 percent of the blame for our problems get pushed of on me, and that this has always seemed to happen with us. This makes me think she is not really the dominant partner. She seems to want leadership from you. Active listening is a good example of exercising leadership. My wife is very skilled at arguing, and debating, and can usually argue any point and win. I can't compete with that You don't need to; use active listening instead., few people can and so I just take the blame. I know this isn't right, but I feltvlike it brought peace. You need to have your feelings addressed, too. But when she is upset, she is not likely to be able to hear you until she feels heard herself.
> 
> I know I need to open up more and not take so much blame. You need to first seek to understand, and then seek to be understood. Both are important if you want to resolve conflict. I love my wife dearly, and at the same time. I feel like she has terrible letting go of my past mistakes, and I feel a lot of guilt for our problems. How are you at forgiving yourself, mr wistful? That can be hard for a lot of us.
> 
> I am not saying any of this because I hold a grudge or want sympathy. I do think you are resentful, and may be holding grudges, as I indicated above. I don't. My wife always has been a very good and loving person, and I hold no grudge against her. She does a lot for me. Reflect on this when the resentment comes up. Your feelings need to be addressed, too, but it can be done with more kindness when your attitude reflects gratitude for what she has done for you. She has made mistakes, and so have I. I believe that we can move past all of this. Please don't misconstrue this as an attempt to attack her. This was merely an attempt to state what I perceive to be issues, and to tell my side.
> 
> To my wife no matter what happens I will always love you. I love you unconditionally. I hold no grudges against you.* I only want to find a way to move past our issues. Please read the 12 Rules for Relationships that I posted earlier. Gottmann researched marriage for decades. He has much for us to learn from. I believe that we where making great progress, and we can continue to make progress. I promise to try and be open more, and try and provide you with more intimate conversation. You are and always will be my best friend, and the love of my life.
Click to expand...


Absolutely she was stressed. I am not going to deny that. As hard as I work I know she works just as hard. I couldn't do what I do without her.

As far as me being resentful I can understand why you would think that, and how it sounded like I was resentful, and at the same time I assure you I am not resentful. I was merely attempting to share my feelings.

I do need to seek to understand my wife better that is clear to me.

I will certainly read your earlier post

Thank you for your post


----------



## Lila

Mr and Mrs wistful....I kind of get the feeling you two are not in the same page when it comes to life goals. 

Mr. Wistful, you're working hard to earn a nice living for you and your family, but does your wife care if you're living in a 3 bedroom bungalow vs a 6 bedroom mansion? If she doesn't care, then she will resent the sacrifices you (and indirectly she) make to be financially well off.

Mrs wistful, is it possible that you are too dependant on your husband for your happiness? I mentioned earlier in your thread that I'd gone through what you're going through in my own marriage. The #1 thing that helped me the most was to seek my happiness. That meant letting go of my resentment towards H but it sure as hell didn't mean accepting emotional crumbs. Doing my own thing let H know that he was either going to take my concerns seriously, and work hard to not repeat them, or he was going to be a memory. 

Have you two discussed your needs? Read hnhn and love Busters?


----------



## turnera

wistful_thinking said:


> Even he realized when he heard himself that his tone was rude.
> 
> I don't see how this is bringing up the past when he is doing the same things as last year, barely helping and having a bad attitude about it.
> 
> At least, that is how I felt in the moment.
> 
> Now, I have to figure out what to do next.


Stop throwing the past in his face. If he does something, talk about what he is doing NOW. Counselors will tell you the worst words you can use are "never" and "always" - because the only reason to use them is to BLAME THE OTHER PERSON and not look at yourself. 

Nobody says you don't need time to decompress or you don't need help with things. But YOUR attitude is just as awful as his.

So unless you want him to just give up on you, I suggest you start taking a better look at your own actions. Men shut down when wives use anger or nag or blame. Every single time you use that attitude you used, he closes himself off a little bit more. And isn't that what you said you DIDN'T want?

Your action is resulting in his result. So learn to do better.


----------



## wistful_thinking

Time that I spend at the gym is not spare time. It is time that I am working on myself and meeting up with my friends. It is something that I need to be my best self not a sign of (endless) spare time. I have no spare time. I am doing something with every minute of my life.


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## turnera

wistful_thinking said:


> Did you seriously just ask me if I bring him lunch?


You're a housewife, are you not?

You should be GRATEFUL that he works so hard that you CAN be a housewife and, yes, you should be finding ways to reciprocate and you should be making him feel like a king.

No offense, but you come across as an A-personality spoiled child sometimes. You SAY you want a wonderful relationship, but you are fighting tooth and nail to ensure that we, and he, agree that he's the bad guy here. 

I'm trying to save your marriage. Men only put up with that for so long before they just give up. Men marry to have fun, to have great sex, to be with a beautiful woman who thinks he walks on water. I'm still waiting to see you exhibit _any _of that.

Instead, you seem to merely feel entitled to his working his butt off for you, allowing you the luxury of _not _having to work 40 hours a week and THEN coming home and doing the housework and taking care of the kids after daycare, and then coming home and being at your disposal. 

It wouldn't hurt you to show him some gratitude now and then, to - yes - get the kids together, drive to his work, and surprise him with a lunch. That's what loving people do - care about the other person.


----------



## turnera

wistful_thinking said:


> Time that I spend at the gym is not spare time. It is time that I am working on myself and meeting up with my friends. It is something that I need to be my best self not a sign of (endless) spare time. I have no spare time. I am doing something with every minute of my life.


You are CHOOSING what to do with every minute of your life. Therefore it IS spare time. 

Look, I'm not trying to make you out to be a bad guy. I'm trying to wake you up. BOTH of you are unhappy. BOTH of you are not getting your needs met. But you came here first, blaming everything on him, and we've been trying to give you advice on how to have a happy, healthy marriage. It looks like he's making changes to meet more of your needs. What are YOU doing to do the same?

Which hours of the week do you set up so that HE can go to the gym or hang out with friends? Not occasionally, but twice a week, like you get to.


----------



## farsidejunky

turnera said:


> You're a housewife, are you not?
> 
> You should be GRATEFUL that he works so hard that you CAN be a housewife and, yes, you should be finding ways to reciprocate and you should be making him feel like a king.
> 
> No offense, but you come across as an A-personality spoiled child sometimes. You SAY you want a wonderful relationship, but you are fighting tooth and nail to ensure that we, and he, agree that he's the bad guy here.
> 
> I'm trying to save your marriage. Men only put up with that for so long before they just give up. Men marry to have fun, to have great sex, to be with a beautiful woman who thinks he walks on water. I'm still waiting to see you exhibit _any _of that.
> 
> Instead, you seem to merely feel entitled to his working his butt off for you, allowing you the luxury of _not _having to work 40 hours a week and THEN coming home and doing the housework and taking care of the kids after daycare, and then coming home and being at your disposal.
> 
> It wouldn't hurt you to show him some gratitude now and then, to - yes - get the kids together, drive to his work, and surprise him with a lunch. That's what loving people do - care about the other person.


QFT.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## wistful_thinking

Lila said:


> Mr and Mrs wistful....I kind of get the feeling you two are not in the same page when it comes to life goals.
> 
> Mr. Wistful, you're working hard to earn a nice living for you and your family, but does your wife care if you're living in a 3 bedroom bungalow vs a 6 bedroom mansion? If she doesn't care, then she will resent the sacrifices you (and indirectly she) make to be financially well off.
> 
> Mrs wistful, is it possible that you are too dependant on your husband for your happiness? I mentioned earlier in your thread that I'd gone through what you're going through in my own marriage. The #1 thing that helped me the most was to seek my happiness. That meant letting go of my resentment towards H but it sure as hell didn't mean accepting emotional crumbs. Doing my own thing let H know that he was either going to take my concerns seriously, and work hard to not repeat them, or he was going to be a memory.
> 
> Have you two discussed your needs? Read hnhn and love Busters?



I think I am too dependant on him, but it is hard not to be. Still I have been going to the gym for a couple hours to work out with my own friends. When my husband comes home at 8 pm I just watch TV and go to sleep. I have nothing left. 

Certainly it was a lot easier when I didn't have a baby to look after.


----------



## mr wistful

I'm not going to shut down. We have our problems. Some of them our my fault, and some aren't. In the end it is probably 50/50

I love my wife, and kids I will fight for what I love, and what I want until my last breath. Nothing will change that. We have our problems I want to fix them, and at the same time I will never walk away. I have put to much of myself into this relationship. It is a part of me.


----------



## Lila

turnera said:


> wistful_thinking said:
> 
> 
> 
> Even he realized when he heard himself that his tone was rude.
> 
> I don't see how this is bringing up the past when he is doing the same things as last year, barely helping and having a bad attitude about it.
> 
> At least, that is how I felt in the moment.
> 
> Now, I have to figure out what to do next.
> 
> 
> 
> Stop throwing the past in his face. If he does something, talk about what he is doing NOW. Counselors will tell you the worst words you can use are "never" and "always" - because the only reason to use them is to BLAME THE OTHER PERSON and not look at yourself.
> 
> Nobody says you don't need time to decompress or you don't need help with things. But YOUR attitude is just as awful as his.
> 
> So unless you want him to just give up on you, I suggest you start taking a better look at your own actions. Men shut down when wives use anger or nag or blame. Every single time you use that attitude you used, he closes himself off a little bit more. And isn't that what you said you DIDN'T want?
> 
> Your action is resulting in his result. So learn to do better.
Click to expand...


It's not bringing up the past if the behavior keeps getting repeated in the present. However Mrs W response to the behavior is not fixing the problem. And the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting change. 

Mrs. W, Tunera is correct in that anger and nagging will get you nowhere.  When Mr.W responded to you in a rude tone you should have stopped him right there and calmly told him you found his tone disrespectful. Demand he talk to you with the respect you are due as his wife. You should also remind yourself to speak to your husband with respect as well. Walk the walk.


----------



## farsidejunky

mr wistful said:


> I'm not going to shut down. We have our problems. Some of them our my fault, and some aren't. In the end it is probably 50/50
> 
> I love my wife, and kids I will fight for what I love, and what I want until my last breath. Nothing will change that. We have our problems I want to fix them, and at the same time I will never walk away. I have put to much of myself into this relationship. It is a part of me.


Good. Listen to what others are telling you about active listening and prioritizing your wife/family.

Talk is cheap.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## wistful_thinking

turnera said:


> wistful_thinking said:
> 
> 
> 
> Time that I spend at the gym is not spare time. It is time that I am working on myself and meeting up with my friends. It is something that I need to be my best self not a sign of (endless) spare time. I have no spare time. I am doing something with every minute of my life.
> 
> 
> 
> You are CHOOSING what to do with every minute of your life. Therefore it IS spare time.
> 
> Look, I'm not trying to make you out to be a bad guy. I'm trying to wake you up. BOTH of you are unhappy. BOTH of you are not getting your needs met. But you came here first, blaming everything on him, and we've been trying to give you advice on how to have a happy, healthy marriage. It looks like he's making changes to meet more of your needs. What are YOU doing to do the same?
> 
> Which hours of the week do you set up so that HE can go to the gym or hang out with friends? Not occasionally, but twice a week, like you get to.
Click to expand...

Doesn't everyone choose what they do with their life?


----------



## mr wistful

turnera said:


> wistful_thinking said:
> 
> 
> 
> Time that I spend at the gym is not spare time. It is time that I am working on myself and meeting up with my friends. It is something that I need to be my best self not a sign of (endless) spare time. I have no spare time. I am doing something with every minute of my life.
> 
> 
> 
> You are CHOOSING what to do with every minute of your life. Therefore it IS spare time.
> 
> Look, I'm not trying to make you out to be a bad guy. I'm trying to wake you up. BOTH of you are unhappy. BOTH of you are not getting your needs met. But you came here first, blaming everything on him, and we've been trying to give you advice on how to have a happy, healthy marriage. It looks like he's making changes to meet more of your needs. What are YOU doing to do the same?
> 
> Which hours of the week do you set up so that HE can go to the gym or hang out with friends? Not occasionally, but twice a week, like you get to.
Click to expand...

She may not have told you what she is doing but I will. She has been bending over backwards to meet my needs giving me appreciation, sex, admiration etc. Don't think for a second that she is not trying meet my needs. The last few weeks have been some of the happiest in our marriage because more of my needs have been being meet. I want to get that back. I want to build on that. She is a great wife, and is definitely trying. Don't doubt that.


----------



## Lila

wistful_thinking said:


> I think I am too dependant on him, but it is hard not to be. Still I have been going to the gym for a couple hours to work out with my own friends. When my husband comes home at 8 pm I just watch TV and go to sleep. I have nothing left.
> 
> Certainly it was a lot easier when I didn't have a baby to look after.


Why is it so hard to be less dependent on your husband?


----------



## wistful_thinking

turnera said:


> wistful_thinking said:
> 
> 
> 
> Did you seriously just ask me if I bring him lunch?
> 
> 
> 
> You're a housewife, are you not?
> 
> You should be GRATEFUL that he works so hard that you CAN be a housewife and, yes, you should be finding ways to reciprocate and you should be making him feel like a king.
> 
> No offense, but you come across as an A-personality spoiled child sometimes. You SAY you want a wonderful relationship, but you are fighting tooth and nail to ensure that we, and he, agree that he's the bad guy here.
> 
> I'm trying to save your marriage. Men only put up with that for so long before they just give up. Men marry to have fun, to have great sex, to be with a beautiful woman who thinks he walks on water. I'm still waiting to see you exhibit _any _of that.
> 
> Instead, you seem to merely feel entitled to his working his butt off for you, allowing you the luxury of _not _having to work 40 hours a week and THEN coming home and doing the housework and taking care of the kids after daycare, and then coming home and being at your disposal.
> 
> It wouldn't hurt you to show him some gratitude now and then, to - yes - get the kids together, drive to his work, and surprise him with a lunch. That's what loving people do - care about the other person.
Click to expand...


How many times should I ask him to meet for lunch before it is enough?


----------



## wistful_thinking

Lila said:


> wistful_thinking said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think I am too dependant on him, but it is hard not to be. Still I have been going to the gym for a couple hours to work out with my own friends. When my husband comes home at 8 pm I just watch TV and go to sleep. I have nothing left.
> 
> Certainly it was a lot easier when I didn't have a baby to look after.
> 
> 
> 
> Why is it so hard to be less dependent on your husband?
Click to expand...

Because once our son turned four I was free to get a job during the day, meet friends as I pleased and in general have the whole day free. Then I could go to the park (and meeting friends there), our son was very low maintenance. It is a Herculean task to do anything with a baby in tow. 

I couldn't do anything with her until she was 6 months because the gym wouldn't take her. Child care for an infant is very expensive, and she was breastfeeding only so I could not leave her anywhere. So, I mostly states home.


----------



## wistful_thinking

turnera said:


> wistful_thinking said:
> 
> 
> 
> Did you seriously just ask me if I bring him lunch?
> 
> 
> 
> You're a housewife, are you not?
> 
> You should be GRATEFUL that he works so hard that you CAN be a housewife and, yes, you should be finding ways to reciprocate and you should be making him feel like a king.
> 
> No offense, but you come across as an A-personality spoiled child sometimes. You SAY you want a wonderful relationship, but you are fighting tooth and nail to ensure that we, and he, agree that he's the bad guy here.
> 
> I'm trying to save your marriage. Men only put up with that for so long before they just give up. Men marry to have fun, to have great sex, to be with a beautiful woman who thinks he walks on water. I'm still waiting to see you exhibit _any _of that.
> 
> Instead, you seem to merely feel entitled to his working his butt off for you, allowing you the luxury of _not _having to work 40 hours a week and THEN coming home and doing the housework and taking care of the kids after daycare, and then coming home and being at your disposal.
> 
> It wouldn't hurt you to show him some gratitude now and then, to - yes - get the kids together, drive to his work, and surprise him with a lunch. That's what loving people do - care about the other person.
Click to expand...


Yeah I tried that lunch thing 100X: 
1) Did not work 
2) Opposite of worked 
3) Not trying it again
4) I can find something better to do with the precious minutes of my life


----------



## farsidejunky

wistful_thinking said:


> Yeah I tried that lunch thing 100X:
> 1) Did not work
> 2) Opposite of worked
> 3) Not trying it again
> 4) I can find something better to do with the precious minutes of my life


Your resentment is more important to you than your marriage.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## mr wistful

wistful_thinking said:


> Lila said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> wistful_thinking said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think I am too dependant on him, but it is hard not to be. Still I have been going to the gym for a couple hours to work out with my own friends. When my husband comes home at 8 pm I just watch TV and go to sleep. I have nothing left.
> 
> Certainly it was a lot easier when I didn't have a baby to look after.
> 
> 
> 
> Why is it so hard to be less dependent on your husband?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Because once our son turned four I was free to get a job during the day, meet friends as I pleased and in general have the whole day free. Then I could go to the park (and meeting friends there), our son was very low maintenance. It is a Herculean task to do anything with a baby in tow.
> 
> I couldn't do anything with her until she was 6 months because the gym wouldn't take her. Child care for an infant is very expensive, and she was breastfeeding only so I could not leave her anywhere. So, I mostly states home.
Click to expand...


I know it is hard to do things with the baby all day. You do a wonderful job at it, and you really are a wonderful mother. I know we have our issues, and at the same time I feel things where going really well. I would like to build on the progress we made address more of our issues, and keep working at it.

Maybe we can look at a daycare for the baby a couple mornings a week, or something similar so you have more time. It might make you feel better if you don't constantly have the baby climbing on you all day while I am working. You will have more time to decompress. Also I know that when you are away from the baby even a couple hours you really miss her. It might bring more joy into taking care of her. You really are a great mother, and wife, and I really am lucky to have you. I love you


----------



## turnera

wistful_thinking said:


> Doesn't everyone choose what they do with their life?


Yeah, and your H could choose to no longer pay for everything, and you'd have to get a job.

I'm just trying to say you are being combative. How do YOU feel when HE is combative? It feels bad, doesn't it? So I'm just trying to get you to have some empathy for him. Stop being combatants, and get back on the same team. Fix this together, hold your tongue, look for ways to soothe him instead of lashing out. 

The more you do FOR him, the more he'll do for YOU. That's how marriages work. 

Think about, had he come home after you were home alone all day, and instead of snapping at him, you'd run up to him, hugged and kissed him, told him how much you missed him, handed him a drink and invited him to sit down on the couch and snuggle with you...all of that stuff that happened...wouldn't have. Because he wouldn't have felt put upon, wouldn't have been rude to you, you wouldn't have said really rude things back and left the room...

YOU have control over how these things go. If there's something you want from him, get into his point of view; see what it would take for him to want to give you whatever it is you want. Which would probably start with humility and gratitude and admiration - give a guy that, and he'll lasso the moon for you. Start with anger and derision, and he'll clam up and see you as the enemy.

I'm just saying, try to approach this smarter, with love, and you're likely to get everything you want.


----------



## wistful_thinking

farsidejunky said:


> wistful_thinking said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah I tried that lunch thing 100X:
> 1) Did not work
> 2) Opposite of worked
> 3) Not trying it again
> 4) I can find something better to do with the precious minutes of my life
> 
> 
> 
> Your resentment is more important to you than your marriage.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk
Click to expand...


I'm not saying that, but what would the point be? Why set myself up for more disappointment? Why waste my time?


----------



## turnera

mr wistful said:


> She may not have told you what she is doing but I will. She has been bending over backwards to meet my needs giving me appreciation, sex, admiration etc. Don't think for a second that she is not trying meet my needs. The last few weeks have been some of the happiest in our marriage because more of my needs have been being meet. I want to get that back. I want to build on that. She is a great wife, and is definitely trying. Don't doubt that.


The best way to get that is to temper your anger and your derision. Did your wife deserve your bad temper? No? Then learn to take deep breaths before you speak, learn to empathize, and learn to share, since that's what she's said she wants from you. The more you give, the more you get.


----------



## turnera

wistful_thinking said:


> How many times should I ask him to meet for lunch before it is enough?


IDK. Didn't we just have this talk? Didn't he just agree that it would be a priority like a week ago? Have you done it yet?


----------



## turnera

wistful_thinking said:


> Yeah I tried that lunch thing 100X:
> 1) Did not work
> 2) Opposite of worked
> 3) Not trying it again
> 4) I can find something better to do with the precious minutes of my life


:surprise:


----------



## farsidejunky

wistful_thinking said:


> I'm not saying that, but what would the point be? Why set myself up for more disappointment? Why waste my time?


Imagine how long your marriage would last if he took the same stance.

But continue to paint this as his fault.

Google the Karpman Drama Triangle. You are living in the victim and aggressor chairs.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## turnera

mr wistful said:


> I know it is hard to do things with the baby all day. You do a wonderful job at it, and you really are a wonderful mother. I know we have our issues, and at the same time I feel things where going really well. I would like to build on the progress we made address more of our issues, and keep working at it.
> 
> Maybe we can look at a daycare for the baby a couple mornings a week, or something similar so you have more time. It might make you feel better if you don't constantly have the baby climbing on you all day while I am working. You will have more time to decompress. Also I know that when you are away from the baby even a couple hours you really miss her. It might bring more joy into taking care of her. You really are a great mother, and wife, and I really am lucky to have you. I love you


Churches have mothers day outs. Mothers join together to have babysitting co-ops. Friends will and can agree to help each other out. There are ways around this. Finding a solution is a MUCH healthier approach to this than just resenting your husband.


----------



## Lila

wistful_thinking said:


> Lila said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> wistful_thinking said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think I am too dependant on him, but it is hard not to be. Still I have been going to the gym for a couple hours to work out with my own friends. When my husband comes home at 8 pm I just watch TV and go to sleep. I have nothing left.
> 
> Certainly it was a lot easier when I didn't have a baby to look after.
> 
> 
> 
> Why is it so hard to be less dependent on your husband?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Because once our son turned four I was free to get a job during the day, meet friends as I pleased and in general have the whole day free. Then I could go to the park (and meeting friends there), our son was very low maintenance. It is a Herculean task to do anything with a baby in tow.
> 
> I couldn't do anything with her until she was 6 months because the gym wouldn't take her. Child care for an infant is very expensive, and she was breastfeeding only so I could not leave her anywhere. So, I mostly states home.
Click to expand...

What does having a young child have to do with being happy! You don't need to go places to be emotionally independent.


----------



## turnera

wistful_thinking said:


> I'm not saying that, but what would the point be? Why set myself up for more disappointment? Why waste my time?


 Did he not just agree a week ago that it was a good idea and that he was now on board with lunches?


----------



## farsidejunky

mr wistful said:


> She may not have told you what she is doing but I will. She has been bending over backwards to meet my needs giving me appreciation, sex, admiration etc. Don't think for a second that she is not trying meet my needs. The last few weeks have been some of the happiest in our marriage because more of my needs have been being meet. I want to get that back. I want to build on that. She is a great wife, and is definitely trying. Don't doubt that.


Then what are you doing to reciprocate?

Are you a planner or fly-by-the-seat-of-your-pants type?

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Lila

wistful_thinking said:


> Yeah I tried that lunch thing 100X:
> 1) Did not work
> 2) Opposite of worked
> 3) Not trying it again
> 4) I can find something better to do with the precious minutes of my life



Lol, I agree with you. It's that whole definition of insanity thing. 

Forget the lunches.


----------



## mr wistful

turnera said:


> mr wistful said:
> 
> 
> 
> She may not have told you what she is doing but I will. She has been bending over backwards to meet my needs giving me appreciation, sex, admiration etc. Don't think for a second that she is not trying meet my needs. The last few weeks have been some of the happiest in our marriage because more of my needs have been being meet. I want to get that back. I want to build on that. She is a great wife, and is definitely trying. Don't doubt that.
> 
> 
> 
> The best way to get that is to temper your anger and your derision. Did your wife deserve your bad temper? No? Then learn to take deep breaths before you speak, learn to empathize, and learn to share, since that's what she's said she wants from you. The more you give, the more you get.
Click to expand...


I need to control my temper. This is true, and at the same time this was the first time that I said something in a harsh tone in a few weeks. It is getting better. I slipped up. Can you expect me to get it perfect, and for there not to be slip ups. It is hard to change yourself. I realized I said it in a harsh tone right away. I won't deny that. I tried to apologize at least 10 times. 

I'm not trying to sound combative. I know it might sound that way. My point is it is still a work in progress. I obviously have work left to do. Please tell me how I could have handled the situation better once I had already said something in a rough tone. The only way I could think of is to not use a rough tone, and one day I will be able to get to the point where I never do that. At least that is the goal. Until that point what do I do differently if in slip up?


----------



## wistful_thinking

turnera said:


> wistful_thinking said:
> 
> 
> 
> Doesn't everyone choose what they do with their life?
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, and your H could choose to no longer pay for everything, and you'd have to get a job.
> 
> I'm just trying to say you are being combative. How do YOU feel when HE is combative? It feels bad, doesn't it? So I'm just trying to get you to have some empathy for him. Stop being combatants, and get back on the same team. Fix this together, hold your tongue, look for ways to soothe him instead of lashing out.
> 
> The more you do FOR him, the more he'll do for YOU. That's how marriages work.
> 
> Think about, had he come home after you were home alone all day, and instead of snapping at him, you'd run up to him, hugged and kissed him, told him how much you missed him, handed him a drink and invited him to sit down on the couch and snuggle with you...all of that stuff that happened...wouldn't have. Because he wouldn't have felt put upon, wouldn't have been rude to you, you wouldn't have said really rude things back and left the room...
> 
> YOU have control over how these things go. If there's something you want from him, get into his point of view; see what it would take for him to want to give you whatever it is you want. Which would probably start with humility and gratitude and admiration - give a guy that, and he'll lasso the moon for you. Start with anger and derision, and he'll clam up and see you as the enemy.
> 
> I'm just saying, try to approach this smarter, with love, and you're likely to get everything you want.
Click to expand...

Ok great. Who is going to pick him up, cook dinner, feed the children, get the kitchen cleaned up, help our son with his spelling words and put the kids to bed?


----------



## jld

mr wistful said:


> I need to control my temper. This is true, and at the same time this was the first time that I said something in a harsh tone in a few weeks. It is getting better. I slipped up. Can you expect me to get it perfect, and for there not to be slip ups. It is hard to change yourself. I realized I said it in a harsh tone right away. I won't deny that. I tried to apologize at least 10 times.
> 
> I'm not trying to sound combative. I know it might sound that way. My point is it is still a work in progress. I obviously have work left to do. Please tell me how I could have handled the situation better once I had already said something in a rough tone. The only way I could think of is to not use a rough tone, and one day I will be able to get to the point where I never do that. At least that is the goal. Until that point what do I do differently if in slip up?


Active listening.


----------



## mr wistful

jld said:


> mr wistful said:
> 
> 
> 
> I need to control my temper. This is true, and at the same time this was the first time that I said something in a harsh tone in a few weeks. It is getting better. I slipped up. Can you expect me to get it perfect, and for there not to be slip ups. It is hard to change yourself. I realized I said it in a harsh tone right away. I won't deny that. I tried to apologize at least 10 times.
> 
> I'm not trying to sound combative. I know it might sound that way. My point is it is still a work in progress. I obviously have work left to do. Please tell me how I could have handled the situation better once I had already said something in a rough tone. The only way I could think of is to not use a rough tone, and one day I will be able to get to the point where I never do that. At least that is the goal. Until that point what do I do differently if in slip up?
> 
> 
> 
> Active listening.
Click to expand...

Great recomend a good resource article book etc that can help me learn active listening. I am open to changing my approach.


----------



## wistful_thinking

turnera said:


> mr wistful said:
> 
> 
> 
> I know it is hard to do things with the baby all day. You do a wonderful job at it, and you really are a wonderful mother. I know we have our issues, and at the same time I feel things where going really well. I would like to build on the progress we made address more of our issues, and keep working at it.
> 
> Maybe we can look at a daycare for the baby a couple mornings a week, or something similar so you have more time. It might make you feel better if you don't constantly have the baby climbing on you all day while I am working. You will have more time to decompress. Also I know that when you are away from the baby even a couple hours you really miss her. It might bring more joy into taking care of her. You really are a great mother, and wife, and I really am lucky to have you. I love you
> 
> 
> 
> Churches have mothers day outs. Mothers join together to have babysitting co-ops. Friends will and can agree to help each other out. There are ways around this. Finding a solution is a MUCH healthier approach to this than just resenting your husband.
Click to expand...

Its solved now. Most programs exclude under 6 months Olds because their are huge liability issues.


----------



## jld

mr wistful said:


> Great recomend a good resource article book etc that can help me learn active listening. I am open to changing my approach.


I wish I had one off the top of my head. I learned about it in _Seven Habits of Highly Effective People,_ and through a parenting organization later.

It is basically 3 things:

1) Repeating her words back to her, or

2) Paraphrasing her words to her, or

3) Asking an open-ended question.

You have to be sincere, though. You have to genuinely want to understand why she is upset. You can't be focused on how she hurt your feelings, or how disrespectfully you think you have been treated. You have to look upon her with compassion and patience, and a genuine desire to figure out where she is coming from, even if you disagree with what you hear.

Do you want to try it?


----------



## turnera

wistful_thinking said:


> Ok great. Who is going to pick him up, cook dinner, feed the children, get the kitchen cleaned up, help our son with his spelling words and put the kids to bed?


IDK, ask the millions of married women and men who both work full time jobs yet manage it? I did. My mom did. My daughter will. 

It seems like the problem here is a sense of entitlement. Or lack of gratitude? 

I'm not saying your H is perfect or even doing a great job. I'm saying - again - that if you want something, put yourself in your spouse's shoes instead of vilifying or attacking him (or telling him to never ever speak to you again), and figure out what solution works for BOTH of you.

You've already admitted that you're great at arguing. That you win. Easily. 

What do you think that gets you in a marriage?


----------



## mr wistful

jld said:


> mr wistful said:
> 
> 
> 
> Great recomend a good resource article book etc that can help me learn active listening. I am open to changing my approach.
> 
> 
> 
> I wish I had one off the top of my head. I learned about it in _Seven Habits of Highly Effective People,_ and through a parenting organization later.
> 
> It is basically 3 things:
> 
> 1) Repeating her words back to her, or
> 
> 2) Paraphrasing her words to her, or
> 
> 3) Asking an open-ended question.
> 
> You have to be sincere, though. You have to genuinely want to understand why she is upset. You can't be focused on how she hurt your feelings, or how disrespectfully you think you have been treated. You have to look upon her with compassion and patience, and a genuine desire to figure out where she is coming from, even if you disagree with what you hear.
> 
> Do you want to try it?
Click to expand...

I'll try anything to make this relationship better. So yes I'm in


----------



## jld

FWIW, I don't think you are entitled or ungrateful, wt. I think you are a mom who probably feels isolated at home and is seeking more support from your husband.


----------



## turnera

wistful_thinking said:


> Its solved now. Most programs exclude under 6 months Olds because their are huge liability issues.


Mothers joining together is not a program. Friends are not a program.

Any rate, you're getting down into the weeds. You're an adult. If you don't like how your time is being spent, find a solution. Instead of just blaming it all on your H. Remember how you pulled away and went upstairs? He's going through the same feelings when YOU react negatively. All I'm saying is find your empathy. If not for him, then at least so YOU can get what you want.


----------



## wistful_thinking

turnera said:


> wistful_thinking said:
> 
> 
> 
> Its solved now. Most programs exclude under 6 months Olds because their are huge liability issues.
> 
> 
> 
> Mothers joining together is not a program. Friends are not a program.
> 
> Any rate, you're getting down into the weeds. You're an adult. If you don't like how your time is being spent, find a solution. Instead of just blaming it all on your H. Remember how you pulled away and went upstairs? He's going through the same feelings when YOU react negatively. All I'm saying is find your empathy. If not for him, then at least so YOU can get what you want.
Click to expand...

Separating and calming myself down is how I handle anger. It is a healthy and was recommended by my therapist years ago.


----------



## wistful_thinking

turnera said:


> wistful_thinking said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ok great. Who is going to pick him up, cook dinner, feed the children, get the kitchen cleaned up, help our son with his spelling words and put the kids to bed?
> 
> 
> 
> IDK, ask the millions of married women and men who both work full time jobs yet manage it? I did. My mom did. My daughter will.
> 
> It seems like the problem here is a sense of entitlement. Or lack of gratitude?
> 
> I'm not saying your H is perfect or even doing a great job. I'm saying - again - that if you want something, put yourself in your spouse's shoes instead of vilifying or attacking him (or telling him to never ever speak to you again), and figure out what solution works for BOTH of you.
> 
> You've already admitted that you're great at arguing. That you win. Easily.
> 
> What do you think that gets you in a marriage?
Click to expand...

The evening before the children go to bed is the busiest time of the day for me. I have to make dinner get the children ready for bed, and help our son. 

I know lots and lots of moms and I think this is pretty common for the evening to be hectic.


----------



## turnera

wistful_thinking said:


> Separating and calming myself down is how I handle anger. It is a healthy and was recommended by my therapist years ago.


That's good stuff. Can you try to do it BEFORE you say things like never speak to me again? Do you see how much that can wound a person?


----------



## turnera

wistful_thinking said:


> The evening before the children go to bed is the busiest time of the day for me. I have to make dinner get the children ready for bed, and help our son.
> 
> I know lots and lots of moms and I think this is pretty common for the evening to be hectic.


Who said it wasn't? It's the same for ALL mothers.


----------



## wistful_thinking

turnera said:


> wistful_thinking said:
> 
> 
> 
> Its solved now. Most programs exclude under 6 months Olds because their are huge liability issues.
> 
> 
> 
> Mothers joining together is not a program. Friends are not a program.
> 
> Any rate, you're getting down into the weeds. You're an adult. If you don't like how your time is being spent, find a solution. Instead of just blaming it all on your H. Remember how you pulled away and went upstairs? He's going through the same feelings when YOU react negatively. All I'm saying is find your empathy. If not for him, then at least so YOU can get what you want.
Click to expand...

I am so happy with how I am spending my time. My children bring a lot of joy into my life and I want to savor every minute of it, and I love living a healthy lifestyle. I also like housework. And I love my job.


----------



## wistful_thinking

turnera said:


> wistful_thinking said:
> 
> 
> 
> The evening before the children go to bed is the busiest time of the day for me. I have to make dinner get the children ready for bed, and help our son.
> 
> I know lots and lots of moms and I think this is pretty common for the evening to be hectic.
> 
> 
> 
> Who said it wasn't? It's the same for ALL mothers.
Click to expand...

Well, that's why I go right to cooking instead of making drinks and sitting on the couch when I get a chance. It needs done. Otherwise, the night will be a disaster, and we won't get any chance to relax.


----------



## turnera

How does your H feel about it? What would HE prefer?


----------



## wistful_thinking

turnera said:


> How does your H feel about it? What would HE prefer?


What would he prefer with what.


----------



## turnera

What is his ideal 'experience' when he comes home? Some like to have everyone jump on him and draw him into having fun or doing stuff instantly; some would prefer to be alone to decompress; some like for the kids to be occupied and to get a few minutes to just slow down and relax with his wife. 

You've said what YOU would like, I'm asking if you know what HE would like. And if it differs from what you want, does he get it half the time?


----------



## mr wistful

turnera said:


> What is his ideal 'experience' when he comes home? Some like to have everyone jump on him and draw him into having fun or doing stuff instantly; some would prefer to be alone to decompress; some like for the kids to be occupied and to get a few minutes to just slow down and relax with his wife.
> 
> You've said what YOU would like, I'm asking if you know what HE would like. And if it differs from what you want, does he get it half the time?


I'll take this one. When I come home I want to first spend as much time as I can with the kids. Playing with the baby walking with the baby, playing with our son helping him with his homework etc. That brings me a lot of joy. I miss my wife and kids when I am at work. I would like nothing better then to get to spend time with them. This also allows my wife to get dinner ready. Then after the baby is put down we can spend time together. 

I look forward to our time together at the end of the day. Call me crazy but I don't want to be left alone. I am alone in my cubicle all day at work. There are days where I don't talk to anyone. I just keep my head down and program. My job is mentally exhausting, and at the same time I need that interaction with my wife and kids.


----------



## mr wistful

turnera said:


> wistful_thinking said:
> 
> 
> 
> Separating and calming myself down is how I handle anger. It is a healthy and was recommended by my therapist years ago.
> 
> 
> 
> That's good stuff. Can you try to do it BEFORE you say things like never speak to me again? Do you see how much that can wound a person?
Click to expand...

This is exactly what I just asked her. I am thankful that she seperates. It has prevented many arguments. I only want her to work on doing it before she says anything hurtful.

I on the other hand need to work at fulfilling her need for intimate conversion, and openness and honesty


----------



## wistful_thinking

jld said:


> FWIW, I don't think you are entitled or ungrateful, wt. I think you are a mom who probably feels isolated at home and is seeking more support from your husband.


Thanks for that. I don't think I am either. I think that being a SAHM is the most selfless thing a person in a marriage can do. We are missing out on training, promotions, retirement, bonuses and all the fun stuff that working people get. On the other hand, it's worth it and the most rewarding job, ever!


----------



## Blossom Leigh

@wistful_thinking Do you feel your husband hears you when you tell him what you need?


----------



## wistful_thinking

jld said:


> mr wistful, it might be helpful for you to write a list of expectations for your wife. She could look at it and see which ones she could do that she is not already. If there are too many, and she cannot fulfill them, you two may have hard choices to make.
> 
> mrs wistful, if you are a skilled arguer/debater, you may want to consider law school at some point. People give people who have these skills a hard time, but they can be useful, not only in law, but in the business world. Negotiation comes to mind.


Haha! Yeah. It's good for defending any point or idea and I am amazing at it. I miss college because I always had a chance there.


----------



## wistful_thinking

Blossom Leigh said:


> @wistful_thinking Do you feel your husband hears you when you tell him what you need?


Yes and no. Right now he is, but in the past we didn't communicate well.


----------



## jld

wistful_thinking said:


> Haha! Yeah. It's good for defending any point or idea and I am amazing at it. I miss college because I always had a chance there.


I think it is also how women have survived in what has through most of history been a man's world.

About the list of expectations I asked your husband to make . . . my point was that if he expects things that you just can't deliver, you two might have to think about the long term prospects of the relationship. 

For example, he seems really sensitive. He really takes your words to heart. How do you feel about dealing with that long term?

If your husband could focus on why you are upset, and how to prevent it next time, instead of just getting hung up on your words, it could help you two get on the fast track to resolving conflict. It might be more realistic than expecting you to never say angry words to him.


----------



## mr wistful

Jld 
I would agree. She is not entitled, or ungrateful. She is the most selfless person I know. She may get frustrated at time, but that should not be seen as a sense of entitlement. She has work to do controlling her emotions at time, and at the same time I need to work on being more open, and controlling my emotions as well. We are human and have room for improvement, and I feel we are making improvements. We hit a bump in the road, and we will move past it and learn from it. If I can learn to be more open, and our relationship continues to improve then this will all have been worth it. 

One thing I feel my wife can improve on is that she needs to be less hard on herself. Whenever we hit, a bump in the road she says I tried everything, and I failed. She has not failed. Each time we try something we learn something new about ourselves and each other, and our relationship gets better. We may have an argument now and then, and at the same time I feel we are learning to meet each other's needs, and our relationship is getting better. By that logic she has started the ball rolling, and things are getting better so she is succeeding. She only falls if we walk away. I wish that she would look on her attempts as success and not failure she is too hard on herself.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

wistful_thinking said:


> Yes and no. Right now he is, but in the past we didn't communicate well.


Good. I'm glad you feel more heard now.

Mr wistful, in the past did you feel you heard her?


----------



## Duguesclin

turnera said:


> I'm trying to save your marriage. Men only put up with that for so long before they just give up. *Men marry to have fun, to have great sex, to be with a beautiful woman who thinks he walks on water.* I'm still waiting to see you exhibit _any _of that.


We men are not this shallow!

I certainly hope Mr Wistful is not this way. It would be sad for his wife.



turnera said:


> The more you do FOR him, the more he'll do for YOU. That's how marriages work.


I disagree with this. The more a woman does for a man the less he will do for her, especially if the woman stays home. A man can quickly feel entitled.

Mrs Wistful is doing the right thing to be demanding because it is so easy for a man to take his wife for granted.


----------



## farsidejunky

Duguesclin said:


> We men are not this shallow!
> 
> I certainly hope Mr Wistful is not this way. It would be sad for his wife.
> 
> 
> 
> I disagree with this. The more a woman does for a man the less he will do for her, especially if the woman stays home. A man can quickly feel entitled.
> 
> Mrs Wistful is doing the right thing to be demanding because it is so easy for a man to take his wife for granted.


You both are speaking anecdotally. 

I have seen both sexes take each other for granted. I have been guilty of doing so, as has my wife.

Everyone periodically gets complacent.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## wistful_thinking

turnera said:


> wistful_thinking said:
> 
> 
> 
> Doesn't everyone choose what they do with their life?
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, and your H could choose to no longer pay for everything, and you'd have to get a job.
> 
> I'm just trying to say you are being combative. How do YOU feel when HE is combative? It feels bad, doesn't it? So I'm just trying to get you to have some empathy for him. Stop being combatants, and get back on the same team. Fix this together, hold your tongue, look for ways to soothe him instead of lashing out.
> 
> The more you do FOR him, the more he'll do for YOU. That's how marriages work.
> 
> Think about, had he come home after you were home alone all day, and instead of snapping at him, you'd run up to him, hugged and kissed him, told him how much you missed him, handed him a drink and invited him to sit down on the couch and snuggle with you...all of that stuff that happened...wouldn't have. Because he wouldn't have felt put upon, wouldn't have been rude to you, you wouldn't have said really rude things back and left the room...
> 
> YOU have control over how these things go. If there's something you want from him, get into his point of view; see what it would take for him to want to give you whatever it is you want. Which would probably start with humility and gratitude and admiration - give a guy that, and he'll lasso the moon for you. Start with anger and derision, and he'll clam up and see you as the enemy.
> 
> I'm just saying, try to approach this smarter, with love, and you're likely to get everything you want.
Click to expand...

This 4th paragraph is what I am talking about how am I supposed to do this at the busiest time of the day? 

It's simply not possible. It is a nice fantasy, but not possible at all.


----------



## wistful_thinking

turnera said:


> wistful_thinking said:
> 
> 
> 
> How many times should I ask him to meet for lunch before it is enough?
> 
> 
> 
> IDK. Didn't we just have this talk? Didn't he just agree that it would be a priority like a week ago? Have you done it yet?
Click to expand...

I was pretty clear that I'm not doing it.


----------



## wistful_thinking

turnera said:


> mr wistful said:
> 
> 
> 
> I know it is hard to do things with the baby all day. You do a wonderful job at it, and you really are a wonderful mother. I know we have our issues, and at the same time I feel things where going really well. I would like to build on the progress we made address more of our issues, and keep working at it.
> 
> Maybe we can look at a daycare for the baby a couple mornings a week, or something similar so you have more time. It might make you feel better if you don't constantly have the baby climbing on you all day while I am working. You will have more time to decompress. Also I know that when you are away from the baby even a couple hours you really miss her. It might bring more joy into taking care of her. You really are a great mother, and wife, and I really am lucky to have you. I love you
> 
> 
> 
> Churches have mothers day outs. Mothers join together to have babysitting co-ops. Friends will and can agree to help each other out. There are ways around this. Finding a solution is a MUCH healthier approach to this than just resenting your husband.
Click to expand...

Here you say churches have mothers day outs (that is a program).


----------



## Lilac23

wistful_thinking said:


> Yeah we had a couple of good weeks, but then he was doing his old habit of coming home late and having a bad attitude about being asked to do something very simple and small when I had done almost everything, which seems unloving to me.
> 
> So I said great don't do it. I don't care about it, and just don't talk to me at all. And never talk to me again (I know rude parting comment).
> 
> That is why I felt like I didn't even want to talk to him because I was way too angry, and I didn't want to say something really mean, which I would regret.
> 
> When you are going to have such a bad attitude after coming home after 2 days of working, then why do I even bother? Why even do anything when I am only going to get a bad attitude in return?
> 
> Even he realized when he heard himself that his tone was rude.


What was the first thing you did when he came in the door? Did you give him a hug and kiss or say how was your day honey? Or did you throw a kid at him and starting barking out orders?

And he apologized correct? Did you apologize for your overreaction of saying to never talk to you again and saying that your husband hates you? You might have been handling the home front but he was handling the work front. Do you appreciate how hard he works to provide for you and the kids? Or were you looking to unload on him because you weren't happy with how your day or life is going?



wistful_thinking said:


> I don't see how this is bringing up the past when he is doing the same things as last year, barely helping and having a bad attitude about it.
> 
> At least, that is how I felt in the moment.
> 
> Now, I have to figure out what to do next.


Do you think you are overreacting just a tiny bit? You told him he could go so he went. He never said he wasn't going to work more long hours, he said he was going to make more time for you and the kids. Maybe he was feeling a little feisty after some time with the boys, who cares? Say something sarcastic back or let it go, don't ruin the whole night over it. 

If you stomp down his efforts over the last few weeks because he worked a couple long days, you will kill his desire to please you and continue to change. Why would he want to work to make you happy if you are impossible to please and constantly waiting to jump on him? Change doesn't happen over a day or a couple weeks, it's a long process.


----------



## Lilac23

wistful_thinking said:


> Time that I spend at the gym is not spare time. It is time that I am working on myself and meeting up with my friends. It is something that I need to be my best self not a sign of (endless) spare time. I have no spare time. I am doing something with every minute of my life.


Again, friends you can get together with who also have kids?


----------



## Lilac23

wistful_thinking said:


> I think I am too dependant on him, but it is hard not to be. Still I have been going to the gym for a couple hours to work out with my own friends. When my husband comes home at 8 pm I just watch TV and go to sleep. I have nothing left.
> 
> Certainly it was a lot easier when I didn't have a baby to look after.


What are you depending on him for? Conversation, help with kids, help with chores? What was your relationship like before the last kid?


----------



## Lilac23

wistful_thinking said:


> Thanks for that. I don't think I am either. I think that being a SAHM is the most selfless thing a person in a marriage can do. We are missing out on training, promotions, retirement, bonuses and all the fun stuff that working people get. On the other hand, it's worth it and the most rewarding job, ever!


It just struck me that you are jealous of him! That he gets to go to work everyday and get to have conversation with other people, affirmation on doing a good job and guilt free time away from the kids? Did his winning an award and a bonus rub you the wrong way? Make you think about the things you are missing while doing the dishes, cooking dinner and changing diapers? Babies are rewarding but also monotonous as hell (at times). Your work isn't really recognized by other people, either. It's just what a mom does, right?

Being a stay at home mom is indeed hard and selfless...but you're not a martyr. You made the choice to do it to give the kids the best of you but it's also natural to think about things you might be missing out on. Did you stay home with the first kid? Was hubs working long hours then?

What was the first thing that went through your head when you heard about his award? What did you say to him? How did you show him you were proud of him?


----------



## Lilac23

mr wistful said:


> I feel like i* have been bending over backwards trying to do everything for the past few weeks.
> 
> Tuesday my boss wanted to take us out for a drink after work. My wife told me to go. I was home at 7PM. I came upstairs to spend time with her, and I felt like she responded with resentment because she was planning on relaxing, and me showing up ruined her plans.
> 
> Yesterday I got up at 4:30 walked a mile and a half to the bus got to work at 6:30. I left work at 4:30. I got home at 5:47 according to the text message I sent just as I got home. I thought it was going to be a great night. I found out yesterday that I won an award at work that comes with cash, and also that I'm going to get a $10,000 bonus. I figured no reason to be upset about that.


What did she do when you told her about the award? 



mr wistful said:


> My wife asked me to buy a new gift card to chick fil a because we buy gift cards online to our favorite restaurants because raise.com gives you a discount.* I asked what budget category it was coming out of, and I will admit I said it in a rough tone. I didn't may to ask harshly, and I'm sorry that I did. However that harsh tone ruined or night.


Maybe I'm dense but I don't see what is so rude about that? Are you extremely tight with money? Do each of you get a little 'fun' money each week that is not accountable to the other person?



mr wistful said:


> For the next hour I was treated to my wife telling me she is always alone, just want to work, why is she even trying etc.* I tried to be understanding. She was stressed out. She had the kids for most of the last two days, and I tried to apologize several times for using a harsh tone. I felt like she wasn't having any of it. She also said she just has to accept that she is alone.


So you have trained her to think she is always right and you are always wrong? You must have also trained her to know she can get away with acting a martyr and a victim by not confronting statements like 'i am always alone and can depend on no one' and that if she is stressed she can b!tch for days over a small thing? So now you need to retrain her! You can do this by confronting the statements as she makes them, but not aggressively! Point out that you have a viewpoint too, and that her reality is not necessarily your reality. Such as the 'can depend on no one' comment which is clearly false. She can depend on you to bring in money that affords her the opportunity to be a stay at home mom. She can depend on you to pay the bills and not get thrown out into the street. You each bring value to that marriage and partnership, she may be doing the majority of the child care and home management but she chose this, no? Maybe she'd like to go back to full time work for a while and let you be a stay at home dad? My guess is that wouldn't jive for long either. 



mr wistful said:


> *This morning I told her after you drop the kids off at school come upstairs, and we can talk. I am working from home. That was met with we never have time to talk because you want to work. I felt like this is a good example of pushing the blame off on me. I have to work. I feel like she was saying that we can never talk because all I want to do is work. I have to work if I don't we have no income. It is getting less stressful we just hired two new people, and that is going to make things easier, and at the same time I am doing what I have to not what I want to, and I feel like my working was being blamed for the reason we can't talk hence it is my fault


Why did you reject his attempt at reaching out to you @wistful_thinking?



mr wistful said:


> I feel like this is boiling down to the fact that she wants me to open up to her more. I have always been very guarded, and not very good at sharing my feelings. We talked after the argument, and I think it went well. I tried to open up. I told her that I feel like 90 percent of the blame for our problems get pushed of on me, and that this has always seemed to happen with us. My wife is very skilled at arguing, and debating, and can usually argue any point and win. I can't compete with that, few people can and so I just take the blame. I know this isn't right, but I feltvlike it brought peace.


Instead of taking the blame, try saying 'I see things differently and when you want to talk this through, taking my side into account (as well as hers) I'll be in the living room', then walk away.


----------



## Lilac23

wistful_thinking said:


> This 4th paragraph is what I am talking about how am I supposed to do this at the busiest time of the day?
> 
> It's simply not possible. It is a nice fantasy, but not possible at all.


No one expects you to be a Stepford wife, just don't start b!tching at him and handing out chores the minute he walks through the door. Say 'hi, baby, how's your day?' you can talk while you are cooking. Give him a few minutes to shift gears and gauge what is going on in the home-front. He seems like a smart boy and if he's not, then after a few minutes of meeting his need to chat and regroup, you can offer some cues of where you would like him to focus his attention. "It would be great if you could get XXX started on her homework" or "could you take the baby while I get dinner on the table"? Nicely! Maybe you shouldn't have to and he should just know what to do without being clued on, but that's probably not the case. Don't make him feel like another kid that you have constantly tell what to do, where to go or how to do something.


----------



## mr wistful

Duguesclin said:


> turnera said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm trying to save your marriage. Men only put up with that for so long before they just give up. *Men marry to have fun, to have great sex, to be with a beautiful woman who thinks he walks on water.* I'm still waiting to see you exhibit _any _of that.
> 
> 
> 
> We men are not this shallow!
> 
> I certainly hope Mr Wistful is not this way. It would be sad for his wife.
Click to expand...

I married my wife because I loved her. I have stayed because I love her. Sex is just an added bonus. I don't want her to treat me like a king. I want mutual respect where we each learn to meet the others needs. 

When my wife and I got married we didn't have money or a clue. I was still in grad school with an internship earning $800 a month. My wife stood by my side, and supported me when we had nothing. It was a struggle to survive day to day. Our first child was born shortly after we where married, I was still in grad school. When or our son was about six months old we got our big break. I got a good job offer with the company I am working for now. 

We saved enough buy a house six months later. Two years after that I got outsourced. I was given three months to find a new job in the company or leave with severance. This was an especially difficult time for me. I felt like a failure. My wife was the one who got me through it. She stood by me. She made me feel like everything would by ok. She helped me look for a new job, and made me feel ok again. The result was that I ended up with several job offers. We decided that I should take a new job with my current company even though we though we had to move to take it. This turned out to be a good decision. My salary has gone up by 50 percent since then. 

The point to this story is that my wife has been the one person that has stood by me no matter what. When things are good she is there, but more importantly she has been my strongest supporter when we had nothing, and things where going bad. When everyone else was willing to turn aside, and leave me to my plight my wife never did. She stood by me. Words couldn't possibly express what that has meant and what she means to me. She is a wonderful mother, and my strongest supporter. 

I married for love. I stayed because of love, and because I have a true partner who loves me unconditionally. We may have our problems, and at the same time they are fixable. I promise you I am more lucky then everyone on this forum. I have a true partner who has always been there for me, and will always be there for me. She is the only one in my life that I can say that about. I love my wife more and more every day, and as I keep saying I will do anything to fix our problems. My wife deserves to have her needs meet, and I want to do everything I can to meet them.


----------



## Julius Beastcavern

Lilac23 said:


> It just struck me that you are jealous of him! That he gets to go to work everyday and get to have conversation with other people, affirmation on doing a good job and guilt free time away from the kids? Did his winning an award and a bonus rub you the wrong way? Make you think about the things you are missing while doing the dishes, cooking dinner and changing diapers? Babies are rewarding but also monotonous as hell (at times). Your work isn't really recognized by other people, either. It's just what a mom does, right?
> 
> Being a stay at home mom is indeed hard and selfless...but you're not a martyr. You made the choice to do it to give the kids the best of you but it's also natural to think about things you might be missing out on. Did you stay home with the first kid? Was hubs working long hours then?
> 
> What was the first thing that went through your head when you heard about his award? What did you say to him? How did you show him you were proud of him?


I think you may have hit the nail on the head there. Op seems to resent her husband as if the marriage has prevented her from living her life to the full on her terms, is this true OP?


----------



## Julius Beastcavern

Duguesclin said:


> We men are not this shallow!
> 
> I certainly hope Mr Wistful is not this way. It would be sad for his wife.
> 
> 
> 
> *I disagree with this. The more a woman does for a man the less he will do for her, especially if the woman stays home. A man can quickly feel entitled.
> 
> Mrs Wistful is doing the right thing to be demanding because it is so easy for a man to take his wife for granted.*


Don't project your own shortcomings onto other men


----------



## mr wistful

Julius Beastcavern said:


> Lilac23 said:
> 
> 
> 
> It just struck me that you are jealous of him! That he gets to go to work everyday and get to have conversation with other people, affirmation on doing a good job and guilt free time away from the kids? Did his winning an award and a bonus rub you the wrong way? Make you think about the things you are missing while doing the dishes, cooking dinner and changing diapers? Babies are rewarding but also monotonous as hell (at times). Your work isn't really recognized by other people, either. It's just what a mom does, right?
> 
> Being a stay at home mom is indeed hard and selfless...but you're not a martyr. You made the choice to do it to give the kids the best of you but it's also natural to think about things you might be missing out on. Did you stay home with the first kid? Was hubs working long hours then?
> 
> What was the first thing that went through your head when you heard about his award? What did you say to him? How did you show him you were proud of him?
> 
> 
> 
> I think you may have hit the nail on the head there. Op seems to resent her husband as if the marriage has prevented her from living her life to the full on her terms, is this true OP?
Click to expand...

I would disagree. I told her via text, and her reaction was positive. I think the issue was simply that she was stressed out she had the kids for most of 2 days, and it probably felt like it did when I was working so many long days last year. When I was a bit rough with my tone I think she was scared things where going to revert back to the way things where last year. The bonus and award have nothing to do with it.


----------



## Julius Beastcavern

mr wistful said:


> I would disagree. I told her via text, and her reaction was positive. I think the issue was simply that she was stressed out she had the kids for most of 2 days, and it probably felt like it did when I was working so many long days last year. When I was a bit rough with my tone I think she was scared things where going to revert back to the way things where last year. The bonus and award have nothing to do with it.


I think this goes deeper, she is obviously very unhappy about something in her life and I don't necessarily believe it is completely you, you merely bear the brunt of her unhappiness. It's never easy to admit your life is not happy and you're probably to blame yourself


----------



## wistful_thinking

Lilac23 said:


> wistful_thinking said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah we had a couple of good weeks, but then he was doing his old habit of coming home late and having a bad attitude about being asked to do something very simple and small when I had done almost everything, which seems unloving to me.
> 
> So I said great don't do it. I don't care about it, and just don't talk to me at all. And never talk to me again (I know rude parting comment).
> 
> That is why I felt like I didn't even want to talk to him because I was way too angry, and I didn't want to say something really mean, which I would regret.
> 
> When you are going to have such a bad attitude after coming home after 2 days of working, then why do I even bother? Why even do anything when I am only going to get a bad attitude in return?
> 
> Even he realized when he heard himself that his tone was rude.
> 
> 
> 
> What was the first thing you did when he came in the door? Did you give him a hug and kiss or say how was your day honey? Or did you throw a kid at him and starting barking out orders?
> 
> And he apologized correct? Did you apologize for your overreaction of saying to never talk to you again and saying that your husband hates you? You might have been handling the home front but he was handling the work front. Do you appreciate how hard he works to provide for you and the kids? Or were you looking to unload on him because you weren't happy with how your day or life is going?
> 
> 
> 
> wistful_thinking said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't see how this is bringing up the past when he is doing the same things as last year, barely helping and having a bad attitude about it.
> 
> At least, that is how I felt in the moment.
> 
> Now, I have to figure out what to do next.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Do you think you are overreacting just a tiny bit? You told him he could go so he went. He never said he wasn't going to work more long hours, he said he was going to make more time for you and the kids. Maybe he was feeling a little feisty after some time with the boys, who cares? Say something sarcastic back or let it go, don't ruin the whole night over it.
> 
> If you stomp down his efforts over the last few weeks because he worked a couple long days, you will kill his desire to please you and continue to change. Why would he want to work to make you happy if you are impossible to please and constantly waiting to jump on him? Change doesn't happen over a day or a couple weeks, it's a long process.
Click to expand...

I didn't orders at him at all. I said the chic fil a card only has 3.89 on it would you mind ordering another one. 

The second quote isn't even from me.


----------



## wistful_thinking

Lilac23 said:


> mr wistful said:
> 
> 
> 
> I feel like i* have been bending over backwards trying to do everything for the past few weeks.
> 
> Tuesday my boss wanted to take us out for a drink after work. My wife told me to go. I was home at 7PM. I came upstairs to spend time with her, and I felt like she responded with resentment because she was planning on relaxing, and me showing up ruined her plans.
> 
> Yesterday I got up at 4:30 walked a mile and a half to the bus got to work at 6:30. I left work at 4:30. I got home at 5:47 according to the text message I sent just as I got home. I thought it was going to be a great night. I found out yesterday that I won an award at work that comes with cash, and also that I'm going to get a $10,000 bonus. I figured no reason to be upset about that.
> 
> 
> 
> What did she do when you told her about the award?
> 
> 
> 
> mr wistful said:
> 
> 
> 
> My wife asked me to buy a new gift card to chick fil a because we buy gift cards online to our favorite restaurants because raise.com gives you a discount.* I asked what budget category it was coming out of, and I will admit I said it in a rough tone. I didn't may to ask harshly, and I'm sorry that I did. However that harsh tone ruined or night.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Maybe I'm dense but I don't see what is so rude about that? Are you extremely tight with money? Do each of you get a little 'fun' money each week that is not accountable to the other person?
> 
> 
> 
> mr wistful said:
> 
> 
> 
> For the next hour I was treated to my wife telling me she is always alone, just want to work, why is she even trying etc.* I tried to be understanding. She was stressed out. She had the kids for most of the last two days, and I tried to apologize several times for using a harsh tone. I felt like she wasn't having any of it. She also said she just has to accept that she is alone.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So you have trained her to think she is always right and you are always wrong? You must have also trained her to know she can get away with acting a martyr and a victim by not confronting statements like 'i am always alone and can depend on no one' and that if she is stressed she can b!tch for days over a small thing? So now you need to retrain her! You can do this by confronting the statements as she makes them, but not aggressively! Point out that you have a viewpoint too, and that her reality is not necessarily your reality. Such as the 'can depend on no one' comment which is clearly false. She can depend on you to bring in money that affords her the opportunity to be a stay at home mom. She can depend on you to pay the bills and not get thrown out into the street. You each bring value to that marriage and partnership, she may be doing the majority of the child care and home management but she chose this, no? Maybe she'd like to go back to full time work for a while and let you be a stay at home dad? My guess is that wouldn't jive for long either.
> 
> 
> 
> mr wistful said:
> 
> 
> 
> *This morning I told her after you drop the kids off at school come upstairs, and we can talk. I am working from home. That was met with we never have time to talk because you want to work. I felt like this is a good example of pushing the blame off on me. I have to work. I feel like she was saying that we can never talk because all I want to do is work. I have to work if I don't we have no income. It is getting less stressful we just hired two new people, and that is going to make things easier, and at the same time I am doing what I have to not what I want to, and I feel like my working was being blamed for the reason we can't talk hence it is my fault
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Why did you reject his attempt at reaching out to you @wistful_thinking?
> 
> 
> 
> mr wistful said:
> 
> 
> 
> I feel like this is boiling down to the fact that she wants me to open up to her more. I have always been very guarded, and not very good at sharing my feelings. We talked after the argument, and I think it went well. I tried to open up. I told her that I feel like 90 percent of the blame for our problems get pushed of on me, and that this has always seemed to happen with us. My wife is very skilled at arguing, and debating, and can usually argue any point and win. I can't compete with that, few people can and so I just take the blame. I know this isn't right, but I feltvlike it brought peace.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Instead of taking the blame, try saying 'I see things differently and when you want to talk this through, taking my side into account (as well as hers) I'll be in the living room', then walk away.
Click to expand...

What he said was not rude at all, but the tone was:

1) rude
2) Now reason for it 
2) uncalled


----------



## wistful_thinking

Julius Beastcavern said:


> Lilac23 said:
> 
> 
> 
> It just struck me that you are jealous of him! That he gets to go to work everyday and get to have conversation with other people, affirmation on doing a good job and guilt free time away from the kids? Did his winning an award and a bonus rub you the wrong way? Make you think about the things you are missing while doing the dishes, cooking dinner and changing diapers? Babies are rewarding but also monotonous as hell (at times). Your work isn't really recognized by other people, either. It's just what a mom does, right?
> 
> Being a stay at home mom is indeed hard and selfless...but you're not a martyr. You made the choice to do it to give the kids the best of you but it's also natural to think about things you might be missing out on. Did you stay home with the first kid? Was hubs working long hours then?
> 
> What was the first thing that went through your head when you heard about his award? What did you say to him? How did you show him you were proud of him?
> 
> 
> 
> I think you may have hit the nail on the head there. Op seems to resent her husband as if the marriage has prevented her from living her life to the full on her terms, is this true OP?
Click to expand...

No I am not jealous of him at all. His job is incredibly difficult and incredibly frustrating. And people always expect him to move mountains and don't say thank you. He also doesn't even have time for lunch. When I worked full time it was a lot more of a fun environment. As I have said before he doesn't have it easy, and his life is harder than mine.


----------



## mr wistful

wistful_thinking said:


> Lilac23 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mr wistful said:
> 
> 
> 
> I feel like i* have been bending over backwards trying to do everything for the past few weeks.
> 
> Tuesday my boss wanted to take us out for a drink after work. My wife told me to go. I was home at 7PM. I came upstairs to spend time with her, and I felt like she responded with resentment because she was planning on relaxing, and me showing up ruined her plans.
> 
> Yesterday I got up at 4:30 walked a mile and a half to the bus got to work at 6:30. I left work at 4:30. I got home at 5:47 according to the text message I sent just as I got home. I thought it was going to be a great night. I found out yesterday that I won an award at work that comes with cash, and also that I'm going to get a $10,000 bonus. I figured no reason to be upset about that.
> 
> 
> 
> What did she do when you told her about the award?
> 
> 
> 
> mr wistful said:
> 
> 
> 
> My wife asked me to buy a new gift card to chick fil a because we buy gift cards online to our favorite restaurants because raise.com gives you a discount.* I asked what budget category it was coming out of, and I will admit I said it in a rough tone. I didn't may to ask harshly, and I'm sorry that I did. However that harsh tone ruined or night.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Maybe I'm dense but I don't see what is so rude about that? Are you extremely tight with money? Do each of you get a little 'fun' money each week that is not accountable to the other person?
> 
> 
> 
> mr wistful said:
> 
> 
> 
> For the next hour I was treated to my wife telling me she is always alone, just want to work, why is she even trying etc.* I tried to be understanding. She was stressed out. She had the kids for most of the last two days, and I tried to apologize several times for using a harsh tone. I felt like she wasn't having any of it. She also said she just has to accept that she is alone.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So you have trained her to think she is always right and you are always wrong? You must have also trained her to know she can get away with acting a martyr and a victim by not confronting statements like 'i am always alone and can depend on no one' and that if she is stressed she can b!tch for days over a small thing? So now you need to retrain her! You can do this by confronting the statements as she makes them, but not aggressively! Point out that you have a viewpoint too, and that her reality is not necessarily your reality. Such as the 'can depend on no one' comment which is clearly false. She can depend on you to bring in money that affords her the opportunity to be a stay at home mom. She can depend on you to pay the bills and not get thrown out into the street. You each bring value to that marriage and partnership, she may be doing the majority of the child care and home management but she chose this, no? Maybe she'd like to go back to full time work for a while and let you be a stay at home dad? My guess is that wouldn't jive for long either.
> 
> 
> 
> mr wistful said:
> 
> 
> 
> *This morning I told her after you drop the kids off at school come upstairs, and we can talk. I am working from home. That was met with we never have time to talk because you want to work. I felt like this is a good example of pushing the blame off on me. I have to work. I feel like she was saying that we can never talk because all I want to do is work. I have to work if I don't we have no income. It is getting less stressful we just hired two new people, and that is going to make things easier, and at the same time I am doing what I have to not what I want to, and I feel like my working was being blamed for the reason we can't talk hence it is my fault
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Why did you reject his attempt at reaching out to you @wistful_thinking?
> 
> 
> 
> mr wistful said:
> 
> 
> 
> I feel like this is boiling down to the fact that she wants me to open up to her more. I have always been very guarded, and not very good at sharing my feelings. We talked after the argument, and I think it went well. I tried to open up. I told her that I feel like 90 percent of the blame for our problems get pushed of on me, and that this has always seemed to happen with us. My wife is very skilled at arguing, and debating, and can usually argue any point and win. I can't compete with that, few people can and so I just take the blame. I know this isn't right, but I feltvlike it brought peace.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Instead of taking the blame, try saying 'I see things differently and when you want to talk this through, taking my side into account (as well as hers) I'll be in the living room', then walk away.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What he said was not rude at all, but the tone was:
> 
> 1) rude
> 2) Now reason for it
> 2) uncalled
Click to expand...


My tone was rude and uncalled for. I was thinking about finances and work on my way home, my mind was partly still on that. Instead of communicating my thoughts I acted passive aggressively. I should have been more open with what I was thinking about. No excuse. It is my fault I used a rude tone, and my fault I wasn't more open.

I need to work on being more open and honest with my wife.


----------



## wistful_thinking

Lilac23 said:


> wistful_thinking said:
> 
> 
> 
> This 4th paragraph is what I am talking about how am I supposed to do this at the busiest time of the day?
> 
> It's simply not possible. It is a nice fantasy, but not possible at all.
> 
> 
> 
> No one expects you to be a Stepford wife, just don't start b!tching at him and handing out chores the minute he walks through the door. Say 'hi, baby, how's your day?' you can talk while you are cooking. Give him a few minutes to shift gears and gauge what is going on in the home-front. He seems like a smart boy and if he's not, then after a few minutes of meeting his need to chat and regroup, you can offer some cues of where you would like him to focus his attention. "It would be great if you could get XXX started on her homework" or "could you take the baby while I get dinner on the table"? Nicely! Maybe you shouldn't have to and he should just know what to do without being clued on, but that's probably not the case. Don't make him feel like another kid that you have constantly tell what to do, where to go or how to do something.
Click to expand...

This is what I do now.


----------



## wistful_thinking

Julius Beastcavern said:


> Lilac23 said:
> 
> 
> 
> It just struck me that you are jealous of him! That he gets to go to work everyday and get to have conversation with other people, affirmation on doing a good job and guilt free time away from the kids? Did his winning an award and a bonus rub you the wrong way? Make you think about the things you are missing while doing the dishes, cooking dinner and changing diapers? Babies are rewarding but also monotonous as hell (at times). Your work isn't really recognized by other people, either. It's just what a mom does, right?
> 
> Being a stay at home mom is indeed hard and selfless...but you're not a martyr. You made the choice to do it to give the kids the best of you but it's also natural to think about things you might be missing out on. Did you stay home with the first kid? Was hubs working long hours then?
> 
> What was the first thing that went through your head when you heard about his award? What did you say to him? How did you show him you were proud of him?
> 
> 
> 
> I think you may have hit the nail on the head there. Op seems to resent her husband as if the marriage has prevented her from living her life to the full on her terms, is this true OP?
Click to expand...

No I wanted to be married, but not if it means being treated like a doormat. I am happy to care for the home, but I am not OK with anyone treating me rudely.


----------



## mr wistful

wistful_thinking said:


> Lilac23 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> wistful_thinking said:
> 
> 
> 
> This 4th paragraph is what I am talking about how am I supposed to do this at the busiest time of the day?
> 
> It's simply not possible. It is a nice fantasy, but not possible at all.
> 
> 
> 
> No one expects you to be a Stepford wife, just don't start b!tching at him and handing out chores the minute he walks through the door. Say 'hi, baby, how's your day?' you can talk while you are cooking. Give him a few minutes to shift gears and gauge what is going on in the home-front. He seems like a smart boy and if he's not, then after a few minutes of meeting his need to chat and regroup, you can offer some cues of where you would like him to focus his attention. "It would be great if you could get XXX started on her homework" or "could you take the baby while I get dinner on the table"? Nicely! Maybe you shouldn't have to and he should just know what to do without being clued on, but that's probably not the case. Don't make him feel like another kid that you have constantly tell what to do, where to go or how to do something.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> This is what I do now.
Click to expand...

This is what she does now, and it has been working. The problem is that my mind was occupied with other things when I got home instead of being open and honest about what was on my mind which would have fulfilled a need and made deposits into my wife's love bank I used a rude tone, and made a withdrawal from her love bank. 

She turned around and responded in kind mainly because she was stressed from the last two days which caused her to make a withdrawal from my love bank.

I understand what I did wrong, and I want to work to make sure I respond better in the future openness and honesty is the key for me. She needs it I need to give it.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

OP, just so you know your tone and your husband's tone are complete opposites on this thread. There is something off here in both of you. Still observing to put my finger on it. Right now it just feels like your bitterness outweighs his willingness. Or is it denial I'm seeing in him. Y'all keep talking, I'm sure it will hit me, something is just not adding up in this thread. I think there is more than one thing WAY out of balance in this relationship.


----------



## jld

mr wistful said:


> This is what she does now, and it has been working. The problem is that my mind was occupied with other things when I got home instead of being open and honest about what was on my mind which would have fulfilled a need and made deposits into my wife's love bank I used a rude tone, and made a withdrawal from her love bank.
> 
> She turned around and responded in kind mainly because she was stressed from the last two days which caused her to make a withdrawal from my love bank.
> 
> I understand what I did wrong, and I want to work to make sure I respond better in the future openness and honesty is the key for me. She needs it I need to give it.


If you could do that moment over, what would you have done/said instead?


----------



## mr wistful

jld said:


> mr wistful said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is what she does now, and it has been working. The problem is that my mind was occupied with other things when I got home instead of being open and honest about what was on my mind which would have fulfilled a need and made deposits into my wife's love bank I used a rude tone, and made a withdrawal from her love bank.
> 
> She turned around and responded in kind mainly because she was stressed from the last two days which caused her to make a withdrawal from my love bank.
> 
> I understand what I did wrong, and I want to work to make sure I respond better in the future openness and honesty is the key for me. She needs it I need to give it.
> 
> 
> 
> If you could do that moment over, what would you have done/said instead?
Click to expand...


I would have used a nicer tone.

I would have said I will order it, and at the same time I would like to talk about our financial situation. I would have given my reasons why I was worried, and then after I shared my honest feelings I would have asked what budget category Ithis was coming from .

Mainly I would have used a nicer tone, and told my wife about what I was feeling


----------



## wistful_thinking

Blossom Leigh said:


> OP, just so you know your tone and your husband's tone are complete opposites on this thread. There is something off here in both of you. Still observing to put my finger on it. Right now it just feels like your bitterness outweighs his willingness. Or is it denial I'm seeing in him. Y'all keep talking, I'm sure it will hit me, something is just not adding up in this thread. I think there is more than one thing WAY out of balance in this relationship.


We are trying to find a way we can both be happy if it's even possible. He feels guilty that he was rude to me first, and for no reason. We have a surveillance system and I made him listen (previously) to what he sounded like when he talks to me. This is an on-going thing. 

I told him I have 2 options 

1) stay with him and accept being a doormat, except the advice to just lay flat no matter what 

2) divorce him and have some respect for myself

Now he is trying to prove that he can be decent, and things getting better is a possibility.


----------



## Julius Beastcavern

Anyone else getting the nice guy vibe about mr wistful?


----------



## Julius Beastcavern

wistful_thinking said:


> We are trying to find a way we can both be happy if it's even possible. He feels guilty that he was rude to me first, and for no reason. We have a surveillance system and I made him listen (previously) to what he sounded like when he talks to me. This is an on-going thing.
> 
> I told him I have 2 options
> 
> 1) stay with him and accept being a doormat, except the advice to just lay flat no matter what
> 
> 2) divorce him and have some respect for myself
> 
> Now he is trying to prove that he can be decent, and things getting better is a possibility.


How does the dynamic change when mr is on leave?


----------



## mr wistful

Julius Beastcavern said:


> wistful_thinking said:
> 
> 
> 
> We are trying to find a way we can both be happy if it's even possible. He feels guilty that he was rude to me first, and for no reason. We have a surveillance system and I made him listen (previously) to what he sounded like when he talks to me. This is an on-going thing.
> 
> I told him I have 2 options
> 
> 1) stay with him and accept being a doormat, except the advice to just lay flat no matter what
> 
> 2) divorce him and have some respect for myself
> 
> Now he is trying to prove that he can be decent, and things getting better is a possibility.
> 
> 
> 
> How does the dynamic change when mr is on leave?
Click to expand...

When I am not working I try and take the kids as much as possible. She works every other Saturday so I have the kids on those days. I have not always had the best attitude about this however I have made strides to have a better attitude. On most other days I try and let my wife sleep. I require less sleep then her so this makes sense. If I really need sleep I try to communicate this to her, and she gets up with the kids. After everyone is up I have been trying to either make breakfast or help make breakfast. My wife likes eggs baked in a ramkin with milk salt and pepper.

After that I have been trying to take the kids while my wife cleans up. This gives me time with the kids. Last Saturday I played Duplos with the baby and then built a robot with our son. Then we try and go do something as a family, and after that we come home and relax.


----------



## jld

You seem like a nice person, mr w. Your wife seems like a smart woman, just a bit isolated at home with a baby.

Mrs W, what is your long term plan, career or sahm-wise?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

wistful_thinking said:


> We are trying to find a way we can both be happy if it's even possible. He feels guilty that he was rude to me first, and for no reason. We have a surveillance system and I made him listen (previously) to what he sounded like when he talks to me. This is an on-going thing.
> 
> I told him I have 2 options
> 
> 1) stay with him and accept being a doormat, except the advice to just lay flat no matter what
> 
> 2) divorce him and have some respect for myself
> 
> Now he is trying to prove that he can be decent, and things getting better is a possibility.


You don't come across as a doormat. That's how you are feeling?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

wistful_thinking said:


> We are trying to find a way we can both be happy if it's even possible. He feels guilty that he was rude to me first, and for no reason. We have a surveillance system and I made him listen (previously) to what he sounded like when he talks to me. This is an on-going thing.
> 
> I told him I have 2 options
> 
> 1) stay with him and accept being a doormat, except the advice to just lay flat no matter what
> 
> 2) divorce him and have some respect for myself
> 
> Now he is trying to prove that he can be decent, and things getting better is a possibility.


In looking at this post again you just gave him a lose lose scenario. #1 is he gets to keep you but you stay miserable. #2 he gets to lose you.

WT, He already sounds decent. He sounded like a man who had to adjust to the rigors of full time work, sole support of a stay home wife (with past trauma triggers) and children, that struggled a bit. There is nothing glaring in his approach to you that sets off my warning bells. Others have alluded to some things, but I just see a guy who has a LOT on his plate and its just taking time to adjust and when he knows better, he chooses to do better. He comes across as a people pleaser and possibly in denial about your true nature. So this situation is WAY more complex than either of you realize. Its why I keep telling you to dig in and do the real work. 

What I am hearing on your side is your past trauma has made you sensitive to tone as well as other things and there is some unawareness on your part on how to rightly manage that to maintain the integrity and life of your marriage, to refrain from holding your husband hostage to your past trauma. Also, almost every post you have made on this thread is tearing your husband down while almost every post of his builds you up. This needs to balance out. You both need to see each other accurately and address these issues from an accurate realistic place. He needs to put away the rose colored glasses and you need to put away the doom and gloom glasses. 

NO ONE is telling you to lay down no matter what and for you to claim so has a very specific definition. THAT is called "Catastrophizing" - The habit of automatically assuming a "worst case scenario" and inappropriately characterizing minor or moderate problems or issues as catastrophic events. We give you advice to be considerate and empathetic to your husband and you are painting it as if you would have to lay down and be a total doormat in order to do so. That is an ACOA pattern. It is one of many I see in your posts. 

GET INTO THERAPY with a childhood trauma specialist. It's my opinion that if you don't you will be choosing to leave this marriage at risk for divorce.


----------



## MyTurn

WT,
listen to Blossom ,I think she nailed it.


----------



## turnera

farsidejunky said:


> You both are speaking anecdotally.
> 
> I have seen both sexes take each other for granted. I have been guilty of doing so, as has my wife.
> 
> Everyone periodically gets complacent.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


FTR, I wasn't talking about serving him tea and crumpets when I said 'do things' for him. I was talking about knowing what his top Emotional Needs are, and making sure SHE is the only one meeting those ENs, if possible. Psychologically, thus when he looks at her, he sees this amazing woman who wants to make him happy.

And vice versa of course.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Problem is T, I think he sees her as amazing no matter what her behavior is and that is the wrong balance.


----------



## turnera

wistful_thinking said:


> This 4th paragraph is what I am talking about how am I supposed to do this at the busiest time of the day?
> 
> It's simply not possible. It is a nice fantasy, but not possible at all.


I'm talking about 20 minutes, wistful. Not an hour. For 20 minutes, you can at least try to have baby in her bassinet, and boy in front of a set of Legos, so that you can at least smile, hug, ask how his day went, and listen to how his day went. You can have a cup of tea or a drink ready for him when he walks in the door. Over the years, one of the biggest complaints I've heard from men is that when they walk in the door, the wife doesn't even acknowledge he's home. He feels unloved and taken for granted. 

That's all I'm talking about. And I don't even know if that's the case in your house; I just base it off you saying you're too busy to do this or that. If you're always too busy, are you too busy for him? That's all I'm talking about.

Now he's said he doesn't want to be alone, he likes being around you guys, so now you know what he prefers. I was just saying make sure you remember to make him feel special when he comes home, and I based that on his comments. I'm not saying you're being a bad wife; I'm trying to find simple ways for you two to improve things, which is why you came here, right? But every suggestion I make, you tell me why you can't.


----------



## turnera

mr wistful said:


> I would disagree. I told her via text, and her reaction was positive. I think the issue was simply that she was stressed out she had the kids for most of 2 days, and it probably felt like it did when I was working so many long days last year. When I was a bit rough with my tone I think she was scared things where going to revert back to the way things where last year. The bonus and award have nothing to do with it.


Mr W, she was perfectly capable of finding ways to get a break those two days, and those didn't depend on you. Library, mall, friends...

I think the concern some have is that you two said you were going to work on things and you weren't going to work as much, but as soon as you aren't there for two days - AND you 'got' to go out and relax, her bad temper and willingness to blame you resurfaced.

These things take time to change, you can't change attitudes overnight, so we're pointing out ways you can address that.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Wistful these TAM women are on to something.

I'll be more blunt because I'm a guy. You are acting rude and disrespectful to your husband, and most of your posts reek of distain.

His posts make him sound like a bit of s coddling "nice guy" which is no complement at all.

The more you b*tch at him the more he grovels. I think it's kind of pathetic behavior in his part.

You know a lot of men work long hours. And a lot of men don't want to get bombarded by resentful wives when they get home. And a lot of guys have wives who appreciate their effort, make the home a safe, calm place when they arrive, accept that H might be a bit snippy when he gets home, and let this transitional behavior roll off their backs. And a lot of guts give their wives a hug and apologize after they settle in.

You make it sound like he's an ogre stomping in the door and knocking you down to get what he wants. He used s "rude tone". Paleeeese - that IS NOT the problem here.

So get a little reflective and come out with your real issues before YOU blow up the marriage.


----------



## turnera

Julius Beastcavern said:


> I think this goes deeper, she is obviously very unhappy about something in her life and I don't necessarily believe it is completely you, you merely bear the brunt of her unhappiness. It's never easy to admit your life is not happy and you're probably to blame yourself


My guess, and correct me if I'm wrong, wistful, is you just found taking care of two kids under 3 is a lot of work! It's exhausting and it's hard to be stuck in a house all the time without other adults. I think when women grow up planning marriages and families, we never drill down to see what it's really going to be like, how much work, how much work that goes unappreciated. 

People who work, they DO get awards and accolades. Mothers? Not so much.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

K maybe I overreacted but I do think you should reflect on what these other women are pointing out


----------



## Julius Beastcavern

TheTruthHurts said:


> K maybe I overreacted but I do think you should reflect on what these other women are pointing out



I don't think you need to retreat on your view at all, the hardest part of long term marriage is owning your own ****


----------



## Julius Beastcavern

mr wistful said:


> When I am not working I try and take the kids as much as possible. She works every other Saturday so I have the kids on those days. I have not always had the best attitude about this however I have made strides to have a better attitude. On most other days I try and let my wife sleep. I require less sleep then her so this makes sense. If I really need sleep I try to communicate this to her, and she gets up with the kids. After everyone is up I have been trying to either make breakfast or help make breakfast. My wife likes eggs baked in a ramkin with milk salt and pepper.
> 
> After that I have been trying to take the kids while my wife cleans up. This gives me time with the kids. Last Saturday I played Duplos with the baby and then built a robot with our son. Then we try and go do something as a family, and after that we come home and relax.


I think you need to read 'no more mr nice guy, by robert glover and also married mans sex life primer


----------



## turnera

Blossom Leigh said:


> What I am hearing on your side is your past trauma has made you sensitive to tone as well as other things and there is some unawareness on your part on how to rightly manage that to maintain the integrity and life of your marriage, to refrain from holding your husband hostage to your past trauma. Also, almost every post you have made on this thread is tearing your husband down while almost every post of his builds you up. This needs to balance out.


That's what I'm seeing too. Are you guys going to therapy?



> NO ONE is telling you to lay down no matter what and for you to claim so has a very specific definition. THAT is called "Catastrophizing" - The habit of automatically assuming a "worst case scenario" and inappropriately characterizing minor or moderate problems or issues as catastrophic events. We give you advice to be considerate and empathetic to your husband and you are painting it as if you would have to lay down and be a total doormat in order to do so. That is an ACOA pattern. It is one of many I see in your posts.


That's also what I see. I suspect your H is feeling like he's always walking on eggshells around you; may even explain why he's withdrawn from you. Doesn't mean you're a bad person, just that you learned such patterns in your childhood. (My DD25 does the same thing - I even tell her to her face when she has an almost monthly breakdown - "You're catastrophizing" to get her to 'climb down' from the illogical place she's at. She got that from growing up with her dad.) But you can overcome them.


----------



## turnera

Mr Wistful, in regard to your 'problem' about bringing attitude home, read this: 

The carpenter finished another day’s work. As it was the weekend, he decided to invite a friend to come back home with him for a drink.

When he got to his house and before they went in, the carpenter stood for a few moments in silence before a tree growing in his garden. Then he touched its branches with both hands.

The expression on his face changed completely. He went into the house, smiling; he was greeted by his wife and children; he told them stories; and then he went out onto the verandah with his friend for a drink.

They could see the tree from there. Curiosity got the better of his friend and he asked the carpenter to explain his earlier behaviour.

‘Oh, that’s my problem tree,’ said the carpenter. ‘I know that I’m bound to have problems at work, but those problems are mine, not my wife’s or my children’s. So, when I get home, I hang all my problems on that tree. The next day, before leaving for work, I pick them up again. The oddest thing is, though, that when I come out in the morning to get them, some of them have gone, while others seem much heavier than they were the previous night.’
The problem tree


----------



## wistful_thinking

Blossom 

I am not going to be a doormat, and at the same time I feel like that is what the advice here would get me. 

He was rude to me?

1) it was your own fault because you did something to provoke it or it wouldn't have happened 
2) it doesn't matter 
3) can't you just forgive it already 
4) how you responded is the real problem
5) your whole life is free time 
6) no matter what just lay flat and if 
anything happens it's because you didn't lay flat enough. You should be GRATEFUL. 

That is what I heard.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

wistful_thinking said:


> Blossom
> 
> I am not going to be a doormat, and at the same time I feel like that is what the advice here would get me.
> 
> He was rude to me?
> 
> 1) it was your own fault because you did something to provoke it or it wouldn't have happened
> 2) it doesn't matter
> 3) can't you just forgive it already
> 4) how you responded is the real problem
> 5) your whole life is free time
> 6) no matter what just lay flat and if
> anything happens it's because you didn't lay flat enough. You should be GRATEFUL.
> 
> That is what I heard.


No one is asking you to be a door mat.

We are asking you to change your approach. 

Those are worlds apart.

This also highlights one very important point. What abuse victims hear can be very different from what was actually said.


----------



## Julius Beastcavern

wistful_thinking said:


> Blossom
> 
> I am not going to be a doormat, and at the same time I feel like that is what the advice here would get me.
> 
> He was rude to me?
> 
> 1) it was your own fault because you did something to provoke it or it wouldn't have happened
> 2) it doesn't matter
> 3) can't you just forgive it already
> 4) how you responded is the real problem
> 5) your whole life is free time
> 6) no matter what just lay flat and if
> anything happens it's because you didn't lay flat enough. You should be GRATEFUL.
> 
> That is what I heard.



No one is suggesting that you become a doormat, your views are being challenged as all our views should be. If you knew about Blossoms story you would know how strong a woman she is, she could never be considered a doormat nor would she wish it upon any woman here


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Julius Beastcavern said:


> No one is suggesting that you become a doormat, your views are being challenged as all our views should be. If you knew about Blossoms story you would know how strong a woman she is, she could never be considered a doormat nor would she wish it upon any woman here


Hey and wistful... I understand the fear of being the doormat... it can be suffocating. Its the reason the fight comes out in you. In many ways you are still fighting for your life, even though the abuse is "in the past."


----------



## wistful_thinking

turnera said:


> Julius Beastcavern said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think this goes deeper, she is obviously very unhappy about something in her life and I don't necessarily believe it is completely you, you merely bear the brunt of her unhappiness. It's never easy to admit your life is not happy and you're probably to blame yourself
> 
> 
> 
> My guess, and correct me if I'm wrong, wistful, is you just found taking care of two kids under 3 is a lot of work! It's exhausting and it's hard to be stuck in a house all the time without other adults. I think when women grow up planning marriages and families, we never drill down to see what it's really going to be like, how much work, how much work that goes unappreciated.
> 
> People who work, they DO get awards and accolades. Mothers? Not so much.
Click to expand...

Its doesn't matter how hard or easy motherhood is. I just don't want to be treated like dirt either way.


----------



## Julius Beastcavern

wistful_thinking said:


> Its doesn't matter how hard or easy motherhood is. I just don't want to be treated like dirt either way.



What attributes attracted you to Mr Wistful in the first place? I would ask him the same. Make efforts to become these people again. This marriage can be saved (with ups and downs) if you both manage this your marriage will be more glorious than you can imagine


----------



## Blossom Leigh

wistful_thinking said:


> Its doesn't matter how hard or easy motherhood is. I just don't want to be treated like dirt either way.


You do realize you are not dirt no matter what his behavior is ... right?


----------



## wistful_thinking

Blossom Leigh said:


> wistful_thinking said:
> 
> 
> 
> Its doesn't matter how hard or easy motherhood is. I just don't want to be treated like dirt either way.
> 
> 
> 
> You do realize you are not dirt no matter what his behavior is ... right?
Click to expand...

I'm not sure, and at the same time, I refuse to be mistreated.


----------



## mr wistful

wistful_thinking said:


> Blossom Leigh said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> wistful_thinking said:
> 
> 
> 
> Its doesn't matter how hard or easy motherhood is. I just don't want to be treated like dirt either way.
> 
> 
> 
> You do realize you are not dirt no matter what his behavior is ... right?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'm not sure, and at the same time, I refuse to be mistreated.
Click to expand...

You are not a doormat. I don't want to treat you like a doormat. I made mistakes and I am sorry for them. I would like us to work together to make our relationship better then ever. You ate a wonderful mother and wife. I realize you don't have it easy. I could not do what I do without you. Thank you for everything you do


----------



## Blossom Leigh

wistful_thinking said:


> I'm not sure, and at the same time, I refuse to be mistreated.


Are you saying you are not sure if you are dirt?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

mr wistful said:


> You are not a doormat. I don't want to treat you like a doormat. I made mistakes and I am sorry for them. I would like us to work together to make our relationship better then ever. You ate a wonderful mother and wife. I realize you don't have it easy. I could not do what I do without you. Thank you for everything you do


Can you be specific about those mistakes? 

Wistful... how does it make you feel when he says you are a wonderful wife and mother?


----------



## mr wistful

Blossom Leigh said:


> mr wistful said:
> 
> 
> 
> You are not a doormat. I don't want to treat you like a doormat. I made mistakes and I am sorry for them. I would like us to work together to make our relationship better then ever. You ate a wonderful mother and wife. I realize you don't have it easy. I could not do what I do without you. Thank you for everything you do
> 
> 
> 
> Can you be specific about those mistakes?
> 
> Wistful... how does it make you feel when he says you are a wonderful wife and mother?
Click to expand...


I shouldn't have had a rough tone the other day
I shouldn't have turned her down for lunch over 100 times
I should have helped more with the baby when she was first born
I shouldn't have let my job get in the way of what is really important
I should have listened better
I should have been more honest with my feelings
I shouldn't have made her feel like a doormat
Etc...


----------



## Blossom Leigh

mr wistful said:


> I shouldn't have had a rough tone the other day
> I shouldn't have turned her down for lunch over 100 times
> I should have helped more with the baby when she was first born
> I shouldn't have let my job get in the way of what is really important
> I should have listened better
> I should have been more honest with my feelings
> I shouldn't have made her feel like a doormat
> Etc...


Do any of these fall outside your struggle in learning how to balance work life and family life?

She asked you to fix that balance.

You are being very intentional in doing so.

Does that resonate?


----------



## mr wistful

Blossom Leigh said:


> mr wistful said:
> 
> 
> 
> I shouldn't have had a rough tone the other day
> I shouldn't have turned her down for lunch over 100 times
> I should have helped more with the baby when she was first born
> I shouldn't have let my job get in the way of what is really important
> I should have listened better
> I should have been more honest with my feelings
> I shouldn't have made her feel like a doormat
> Etc...
> 
> 
> 
> Do any of these fall outside your struggle in learning how to balance work life and family life?
> 
> She asked you to fix that balance.
> 
> You are being very intentional in doing so.
> 
> Does that resonate?
Click to expand...

I'm not always sure

Some days it feels like my efforts are noticed. Other days I'm not sure. I hope my efforts are noticed. One day I'm sure I'll feel like they are noticed everyday. That will be a great day


----------



## jld

mr wistful said:


> I'm not always sure
> 
> Some days it feels like my efforts are noticed. Other days I'm not sure. I hope my efforts are noticed. One day I'm sure I'll feel like they are noticed everyday. That will be a great day


I think you two are in a difficult but common place. You are working hard outside the home and she is working hard inside the home. The baby will not be little forever. Just keep being supportive of her.

And try active listening the next time you don't like her words or tone. It can diffuse a lot of anger, and help you two understand each other better.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

mr wistful said:


> I'm not always sure
> 
> Some days it feels like my efforts are noticed. Other days I'm not sure. I hope my efforts are noticed. One day I'm sure I'll feel like they are noticed everyday. That will be a great day


Its actually not about getting your efforts noticed. Its about you making the efforts independent of her emotions. You make them because its who you are and not because of anyone's opinion, even your wife. 

Now you may get feedback, good or bad. But in your heart of hearts if you have been straight up a man for her and to her in regards to taking care of your family, then that stands alone, independent of anyones thoughts of you. That's the stuff that makes you sleep well at night. You can consider her feedback, but that is separate from your own opinion of where your heart is and the effort you made from it.


----------



## mr wistful

Blossom Leigh said:


> mr wistful said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not always sure
> 
> Some days it feels like my efforts are noticed. Other days I'm not sure. I hope my efforts are noticed. One day I'm sure I'll feel like they are noticed everyday. That will be a great day
> 
> 
> 
> Its actually not about getting your efforts noticed. Its about you making the efforts independent of her emotions. You make them because its who you are and not because of anyone's opinion, even your wife.
> 
> Now you may get feedback, good or bad. But in your heart of hearts if you have been straight up a man for her and to her in regards to taking care of your family, then that stands alone, independent of anyones thoughts of you. That's the stuff that makes you sleep well at night. You can consider her feedback, but that is separate from your own opinion of where your heart is and the effort you made from it.
Click to expand...

I never said it was about getting my efforts noticed. I was merely giving an honest answer. 

It's about loving my wife and kids..it's about giving my wife the love she deserves.

It's about having faith that my efforts can fix things.

It's not always going to be easy, and at the same thing few things worth doing are easy


----------



## wistful_thinking

Blossom Leigh said:


> wistful_thinking said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure, and at the same time, I refuse to be mistreated.
> 
> 
> 
> Are you saying you are not sure if you are dirt?
Click to expand...

In my brain in know it, but when he is rude to me, I feel like dirt.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

mr wistful said:


> I never said it was about getting my efforts noticed. I was merely giving an honest answer.
> 
> It's about loving my wife and kids..it's about giving my wife the love she deserves.
> 
> It's about having faith that my efforts can fix things.
> 
> It's not always going to be easy, and at the same thing few things worth doing are easy


My question was whether you were being intentional, not whether she was noticing. I was focusing on what's going on inside you. Your response to me was whether she was noticing or not. That wasn't what I was aiming for. How do YOU feel about your intentionality?


----------



## mr wistful

Blossom Leigh said:


> mr wistful said:
> 
> 
> 
> I never said it was about getting my efforts noticed. I was merely giving an honest answer.
> 
> It's about loving my wife and kids..it's about giving my wife the love she deserves.
> 
> It's about having faith that my efforts can fix things.
> 
> It's not always going to be easy, and at the same thing few things worth doing are easy
> 
> 
> 
> My question was whether you were being intentional, not whether she was noticing. I was focusing on what's going on inside you. Your response to me was whether she was noticing or not. That wasn't what I was aiming for. How do YOU feel about your intentionality?
Click to expand...

Can you explain a little more what you are asking. I am not following


----------



## Blossom Leigh

wistful_thinking said:


> In my brain in know it, but when he is rude to me, I feel like dirt.


Do you ever have moments where you are looking past his curtness and can see why he is being that way independent of how you feel?

In other words.. there are times my H will be "curt/rude" and because I know I am in the clear, I look at it as independent of my being and try to tap into his own pain that fueled that reaction. IF it is minor. If it is major/abusive... I handle that completely differently.

But, my point is... have you ever detached from his crankiness even if it has spilled over onto you?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

mr wistful said:


> Can you explain a little more what you are asking. I am not following


Sure... are you at peace with your hearts intention to do what's right by your wife and children. Do you have nights where you can say to yourself... I got this right today without your wifes input?


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> Do you ever have moments where you are looking past his curtness and can see why he is being that way independent of how you feel?
> 
> In other words.. there are times my H will be "curt/rude" and because I know I am in the clear, I look at it as independent of my being and try to tap into his own pain that fueled that reaction. IF it is minor. If it is major/abusive... I handle that completely differently.
> 
> But, my point is... have you ever detached from his crankiness even if it has spilled over onto you?


Mr and Mrs Wistful, Blossom is basically asking Wistful to do what I am asking Mr Wistful to do. She wants you to look past his words or actions into his heart, Mrs Wistful. It is part of leadership. 

Would you feel comfortable doing active listening, Mrs Wistful, instead of waiting for him to do it with you?


----------



## mr wistful

Blossom Leigh said:


> mr wistful said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can you explain a little more what you are asking. I am not following
> 
> 
> 
> Sure... are you at peace with your hearts intention to do what's right by your wife and children. Do you have nights where you can say to yourself... I got this right today without your wifes input?
Click to expand...

Absolutely. The more I try the better I feel about. It brings me a lot of joy when my wife and kids notice what I do, and even more to know in my heart that I have done everything I know how to do to make sure they are happy, and loved.

Do I make mistakes? Sometimes, and at the same time I like to think that I learn from my mistakes and move on a little wiser.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> Mr and Mrs Wistful, Blossom is basically asking Wistful to do what I am asking Mr Wistful to do. She wants you to look past his words or actions into his heart, Mrs Wistful. It is part of leadership.
> 
> Would you feel comfortable doing active listening, Mrs Wistful, instead of waiting for him to do it with you?


I don't view it as part of leadership

I view it as an act of kindness that anyone can do


----------



## farsidejunky

Or...

Shockingly, they could both do it for each other?

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> I don't view it as part of leadership
> 
> I view it as an act of kindness that anyone can do


I absolutely view active listening, empathy in general, as an act of leadership. Leaders seek to understand, and then to be understood. Empathy certainly is an act of kindness, too.


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> Or...
> 
> Shockingly, they could both do it for each other?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


That is the idea. It can sometimes take one person to get things going, though.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

mr wistful said:


> Absolutely. The more I try the better I feel about. It brings me a lot of joy when my wife and kids notice what I do, and even more to know in my heart that I have done everything I know how to do to make sure they are happy, and loved.
> 
> Do I make mistakes? Sometimes, and at the same time I like to think that I learn from my mistakes and move on a little wiser.


Their joy is the icing.

Your good feelings about your own effort is the cake.

If you lose sight of feeling good about your truest intentional heart effort... there is nothing to frost. Even if the frosting is there.

Are you catching my drift?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> I absolutely view active listening, empathy in general, as an act of leadership. Leaders seek to understand, and then to be understood. Empathy certainly is an act of kindness, too.


It is not that rigid for me.


----------



## jld

Again, Mrs Wistful, are you willing to take the leadership position in the marriage, by being the one to seek first to understand, and then to be understood? Are you willing to be the first to step back from your emotion, and initiate active listening?

Someone has to be the leader when there is conflict, if the two together cannot solve it.


----------



## wistful_thinking

jld said:


> Again, Mrs Wistful, are you willing to take the leadership position in the marriage, by being the one to seek first to understand, and then to be understood? Are you willing to be the first to step back from your emotion, and initiate active listening?
> 
> Someone has to be the leader when there is conflict, if the two together cannot solve it.


Yes and no. I am ok with active listening, and at the same time I don't want to be the leader of our relationship or family.


----------



## Anon Pink

OMG I just can't read anymore!

I read wistful_thinking's first 40 posts, just hers and her husband's. And then I read the last two pages of posts.

Oh Vey! Talk about off on tangents.

You know what wistful? What you're going through is hard and it's hard because you've got a baby. That's it. That's all. You've got a baby who is taking your time and energy and even though you love that baby and love every second with that baby you have lost yourself to that baby. And that's okay!!! That's what a LOT of mothers do. That's normal and healthy and good for the children.

But the down side is that it leaves you with little of you left for you or your marriage.

When that happens, you look to your husband to help fill you back up again. And that's normal and natural. 

But he has his own dragons to slay which, like you, leave him with little left of him for him so that he can be a partner to you.

This ain't about control, or unexpressed expectations or taking one another for granted.

This is called PARENTHOOD. welcome to the land of no sleep and leaky breasts and Cheerios stuck to the floor and boogers on the walls and bags under your eyes. It's a damn good thing parenthood begins when you're young and still have a prayer of keeping up with some/most of the demands on your time.

You and your husband love each other and you are now communicating better and understanding better. Honey, you're good to go! 

Why don't you feel more confidence in your marriage? I think it's because you're still here and your head is being filled with absolute silly and argumentative and even complete bullish!t from other TAMers.

The only piece of advice I hope you work on is this, find a way to get away from the kids and the house for a weekend once per quarter. I know this will be hard but I think you two will be able to do it. Just check into a local hotel and rediscover each other and yourselves. 

I think your marriage is great. The demands of parenthood will lessen in time and if you and your husband continue the path you're presently on, by then your marriage will be even better!

You're gonna be okay. 

You're gonna get through this.

Your marriage is good!


----------



## jld

Thank you for that very positive message, @Anon Pink!


----------



## Blossom Leigh

wistful_thinking said:


> Yes and no. I am ok with active listening, and at the same time I don't want to be the leader of our relationship or family.


Don't worry wistful.. touching your husbands heart doesn't automatically mean you've taken on the leadership of your relationship. It just an expression of love, no more no less.


----------



## turnera

wistful_thinking said:


> Blossom
> 
> I am not going to be a doormat, and at the same time I feel like that is what the advice here would get me.
> 
> He was rude to me?
> 
> 1) it was your own fault because you did something to provoke it or it wouldn't have happened
> 2) it doesn't matter
> 3) can't you just forgive it already
> 4) how you responded is the real problem
> 5) your whole life is free time
> 6) no matter what just lay flat and if
> anything happens it's because you didn't lay flat enough. You should be GRATEFUL.
> 
> That is what I heard.


Wow. You really ARE combative, aren't you?

Interesting that you skipped everything ELSE that's been posted except the parts where you are asked to accept responsibility for at least part of this problem.

The most interesting thing to me in all this is that you two have come to the 'realization' that you 'argue better.' That insinuates that there has been, already, a LOT of tension going on in your relationship. It's kind of sad that a man would say his wife out-argues him, that that has become such a big part of their marriage to come to that discussion and conclusion.


----------



## turnera

wistful_thinking said:


> In my brain in know it, but when he is rude to me, I feel like dirt.


wistful, you know, I'm sure, that that's a self worth issue, right? It's easy for people like you and me with insecurity to look for our partner to validate us and, if they don't do it the way we want, we then feel hurt. And even lash out at them.

But I'm sure you also know that's not healthy.

Instead, maybe get some IC to work on your FOO issues so you can come to the marriage from a position of personal strength (and I don't mean ability to out-argue him), where no matter WHAT happens, you KNOW you're awesome and it doesn't matter what he says or does, you'll still know you are awesome. No more feeling like dirt.

Have you addressed that in therapy? Now would probably be a great time to start, if not.


----------



## farsidejunky

It means that the arguments/debate have likely been a frequent topic of conversation. There is a demonstration of comfort in both her confidence and his acquiescence. 

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## turnera

Blossom Leigh said:


> Do you ever have moments where you are looking past his curtness and can see why he is being that way independent of how you feel?
> 
> In other words.. there are times my H will be "curt/rude" and because I know I am in the clear, I look at it as independent of my being and try to tap into his own pain that fueled that reaction. IF it is minor. If it is major/abusive... I handle that completely differently.
> 
> But, my point is... have you ever detached from his crankiness even if it has spilled over onto you?


That's the empathy I was talking about earlier. If you're busy being empathetic, you won't get wound up in 'I feel like dirt' because you'll SEE that he did ABC because XYZ happened to him at work, or with his family, or because of a friend, or whatever. 

And you'll then be able to feel for him, care about him, and want to help him feel better. 

But if you choose not to go that route, you'll just be sitting there thinking 'he hates me; he wants me gone; I feel like dirt.' And HE will be sitting over THERE thinking - because you didn't show you cared about his pain 'she hates me, she wants me gone, I feel like dirt.' 

ONE of you can take that step and empathize with the other, strive to understand, attempt to soothe...and thus you'll both end up feeling loved and happy.

This goes for you, too, Mr Wistful.


----------



## soccermom2three

What a great positive post, @Anon Pink !


----------



## wistful_thinking

turnera said:


> wistful_thinking said:
> 
> 
> 
> Blossom
> 
> I am not going to be a doormat, and at the same time I feel like that is what the advice here would get me.
> 
> He was rude to me?
> 
> 1) it was your own fault because you did something to provoke it or it wouldn't have happened
> 2) it doesn't matter
> 3) can't you just forgive it already
> 4) how you responded is the real problem
> 5) your whole life is free time
> 6) no matter what just lay flat and if
> anything happens it's because you didn't lay flat enough. You should be GRATEFUL.
> 
> That is what I heard.
> 
> 
> 
> Wow. You really ARE combative, aren't you?
> 
> Interesting that you skipped everything ELSE that's been posted except the parts where you are asked to accept responsibility for at least part of this problem.
> 
> The most interesting thing to me in all this is that you two have come to the 'realization' that you 'argue better.' That insinuates that there has been, already, a LOT of tension going on in your relationship. It's kind of sad that a man would say his wife out-argues him, that that has become such a big part of their marriage to come to that discussion and conclusion.
Click to expand...

No, we didn't say it has anything to do with our relationship. I am just incredible at it. He knows it. I don't beat him down verbally when we have issues, and he wouldn't be ok with it. I just withdraw, or I just cry and cry. Or get mad and say don't talk to me then. 

We know that I am a great arguer from my academic work and career work. I build incredible cases. I can think of everything and think on my feet. 

We both know I am incredibly gifted at debate: I won a scholarship of study that only two people per year can win (on top of a full scholarship) got straight As throughout college (except one class) kind of a great arguer. Even all my professors in college said that I was an amazing person to make a case, and still left only positive comments on my grades. 

I helped my husband with his academic work. I can build a case. I know how to use language. I know English grammatically. I could never do math like him, and I know it, and that's why he always checks my math. We both have our strong points. So what? 

We have argued in the past over silly stuff (what is the difference between nachos and taco salad), but saying that I bully him is just your imagination. Remember, we have already been together 12 years and most of it was good, so it wouldn't be possible to go that far for that long if I was simply awful. 

All of the people that know me would say that I am very pleasant, but if someone has heard me speak I will be elected to speak for a group. 

I also spoke publicly in my profession for years, and received college-level training in logic. 

I don't want to abuse him. That is not my goal. I want a real relationship.


----------



## Lila

wistful_thinking said:


> Blossom
> 
> I am not going to be a doormat, and at the same time I feel like that is what the advice here would get me.
> 
> He was rude to me?
> 
> 1) it was your own fault because you did something to provoke it or it wouldn't have happened
> 2) it doesn't matter
> 3) can't you just forgive it already
> 4) how you responded is the real problem
> 5) your whole life is free time
> 6) no matter what just lay flat and if
> anything happens it's because you didn't lay flat enough. You should be GRATEFUL.
> 
> That is what I heard.


Mrs. W, I sure hope that's not what you heard from me in my few posts to you. If so, I assure you, this was not my intention. I've actually been asking you to do the complete opposite. DON'T be a doormat. DO demand respect....and when you don't get it, calmly but assertively speak up. 

Look, having gone through something similar, I think your reactions are a natural consequence of the poor precedent set in your marriage. It's like living a real life version of the movie Groundhog Day, where you know what's going to happen and you learn the tricks to protect yourself from getting hurt. Unfortunately, 'dodging and weaving' is no way to carry on a relationship long term. It's exhausting. 

I am by no means suggesting you become emotionally closed off. I get that you're going to get upset when you start seeing things slip again. However, address the problem head on. If you feel like Mr. W has done or is on his way to doing something that makes you feel unloved, then tell him. Not in an argumentative way but in an 'i feel' kind of way. His reaction will tell you all you need to know. 

Based on his posts here, he IS trying. The man is obviously putting in great effort to avoid the same mistakes he's committed in the past. Can he be trying harder? I don't know. Only you and he can answer that question through honest discussions and feedback.

One thing that works in Mr. W's favor is that he understands and respects your role as a SAHM. He understands that a SAHM is a psychologically difficult, never ending job. You don't get to 'clock-out' at x o'clock. That makes him a special guy. 

Have you two tried scheduling weekly 'state of the marriage' meetings? I think it would greatly benefit the two of you for two reasons: 1) it'll help open up your lines of communications and 2) it'll help you figure out the schedule for the upcoming week. Number #2 is important because you can prepare mentally/emotionally for when he knows he is going to have to work late (or whatever) that week. It can also give him an idea of when not to work late because of some conflict you may have with your schedule. Win-Win.


----------



## turnera

Thank you for that explanation. I was speaking more to your sustained efforts here to make sure you have a reason for every thing that anyone questions you about. I'm sure it's rooted in your FOO, but it can really spill over into your marriage, friendships, everything.


----------



## wistful_thinking

Lila said:


> wistful_thinking said:
> 
> 
> 
> Blossom
> 
> I am not going to be a doormat, and at the same time I feel like that is what the advice here would get me.
> 
> He was rude to me?
> 
> 1) it was your own fault because you did something to provoke it or it wouldn't have happened
> 2) it doesn't matter
> 3) can't you just forgive it already
> 4) how you responded is the real problem
> 5) your whole life is free time
> 6) no matter what just lay flat and if
> anything happens it's because you didn't lay flat enough. You should be GRATEFUL.
> 
> That is what I heard.
> 
> 
> 
> Mrs. W, I sure hope that's not what you heard from me in my few posts to you. If so, I assure you, this was not my intention. I've actually been asking you to do the complete opposite. DON'T be a doormat. DO demand respect....and when you don't get it, calmly but assertively speak up.
> 
> Look, having gone through something similar, I think your reactions are a natural consequence of the poor precedent set in your marriage. It's like living a real life version of the movie Groundhog Day, where you know what's going to happen and you learn the tricks to protect yourself from getting hurt. Unfortunately, 'dodging and weaving' is no way to carry on a relationship long term. It's exhausting.
> 
> I am by no means suggesting you become emotionally closed off. I get that you're going to get upset when you start seeing things slip again. However, address the problem head on. If you feel like Mr. W has done or is on his way to doing something that makes you feel unloved, then tell him. Not in an argumentative way but in an 'i feel' kind of way. His reaction will tell you all you need to know.
> 
> Based on his posts here, he IS trying. The man is obviously putting in great effort to avoid the same mistakes he's committed in the past. Can he be trying harder? I don't know. Only you and he can answer that question through honest discussions and feedback.
> 
> One thing that works in Mr. W's favor is that he understands and respects your role as a SAHM. He understands that a SAHM is a psychologically difficult, never ending job. You don't get to 'clock-out' at x o'clock. That makes him a special guy.
> 
> Have you two tried scheduling weekly 'state of the marriage' meetings? I think it would greatly benefit the two of you for two reasons: 1) it'll help open up your lines of communications and 2) it'll help you figure out the schedule for the upcoming week. Number #2 is important because you can prepare mentally/emotionally for when he knows he is going to have to work late (or whatever) that week. It can also give him an idea of when not to work late because of some conflict you may have with your schedule. Win-Win.
Click to expand...

No, I am not referring to you at all. I felt frustration because when I described that my husband had been unduly rude to me, several posters were saying everything on that list. 

I am over it, and at the same time, I still don't want to be treated like that. Thank you, for your advice.


----------



## wistful_thinking

Anon Pink said:


> OMG I just can't read anymore!
> 
> I read wistful_thinking's first 40 posts, just hers and her husband's. And then I read the last two pages of posts.
> 
> Oh Vey! Talk about off on tangents.
> 
> You know what wistful? What you're going through is hard and it's hard because you've got a baby. That's it. That's all. You've got a baby who is taking your time and energy and even though you love that baby and love every second with that baby you have lost yourself to that baby. And that's okay!!! That's what a LOT of mothers do. That's normal and healthy and good for the children.
> 
> But the down side is that it leaves you with little of you left for you or your marriage.
> 
> When that happens, you look to your husband to help fill you back up again. And that's normal and natural.
> 
> But he has his own dragons to slay which, like you, leave him with little left of him for him so that he can be a partner to you.
> 
> This ain't about control, or unexpressed expectations or taking one another for granted.
> 
> This is called PARENTHOOD. welcome to the land of no sleep and leaky breasts and Cheerios stuck to the floor and boogers on the walls and bags under your eyes. It's a damn good thing parenthood begins when you're young and still have a prayer of keeping up with some/most of the demands on your time.
> 
> You and your husband love each other and you are now communicating better and understanding better. Honey, you're good to go!
> 
> Why don't you feel more confidence in your marriage? I think it's because you're still here and your head is being filled with absolute silly and argumentative and even complete bullish!t from other TAMers.
> 
> The only piece of advice I hope you work on is this, find a way to get away from the kids and the house for a weekend once per quarter. I know this will be hard but I think you two will be able to do it. Just check into a local hotel and rediscover each other and yourselves.
> 
> I think your marriage is great. The demands of parenthood will lessen in time and if you and your husband continue the path you're presently on, by then your marriage will be even better!
> 
> You're gonna be okay.
> 
> You're gonna get through this.
> 
> Your marriage is good!


Wow! Thanks. I agree with everything that you said. We can probably do better on our own. 

Thanks everyone! Bye!


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## turnera

And...she leaves because people are calling her out on her actions. She came here expecting to be patted on the back, and commiserated with, and agree that her husband is a meany...and got told she has to look at HER share of the relationship. And to add to that, her husband then came and shared HIS side, how HE wasn't happy EITHER, and now she's not the innocent victim, so she's taking her toys and going home...

Mr Wistful, I hope you will read the book No More Mr Nice Guy. It is vital if you want your marriage to survive.


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## Lilac23

wistful_thinking said:


> Blossom
> 
> I am not going to be a doormat, and at the same time I feel like that is what the advice here would get me.
> 
> He was rude to me?
> 
> 1) it was your own fault because you did something to provoke it or it wouldn't have happened
> 2) it doesn't matter
> 3) can't you just forgive it already
> 4) how you responded is the real problem
> 5) your whole life is free time
> 6) no matter what just lay flat and if
> anything happens it's because you didn't lay flat enough. You should be GRATEFUL.
> 
> That is what I heard.


It's not your fault if he is rude to you and it does matter. However, you blew it out of proportion, he apologized and you let it carry on for several days.


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## Anon Pink

Give it a rest T.


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## Lilac23

mr wistful said:


> I shouldn't have had a rough tone the other day
> I shouldn't have turned her down for lunch over 100 times
> I should have helped more with the baby when she was first born
> I shouldn't have let my job get in the way of what is really important
> I should have listened better
> I should have been more honest with my feelings
> I shouldn't have made her feel like a doormat
> Etc...


 @wistful_thinking How many of these are past mistakes? You are holding onto a lot of anger over stuff in the past and if you throw those in his face every-time he does something you don't like, it is unproductive. What could you have done differently when he displayed the rude tone that would not have made you feel you were acting like a doormat?


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## Lilac23

wistful_thinking said:


> I don't want to be the leader of our relationship or family.


This is a key sentence, a lot of women I know feel like they have to be the leader because the man won't step up to the plate. In what ways (other than more help with kids) would you like him to do this? You need to be concrete because many times a man will try to do this, then just get criticized for his efforts because it's not how the wife would have done it.


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## turnera

Anon Pink said:


> Give it a rest T.


Why? Where did she take ownership of anything? She's an A-type personality - and proud of it - and she wants MORE.

And she married a Nice Guy who is simply in over his head. Already, within years, he is taking ALL THE BLAME for their problems. Working superlong hours, how DARE he come home exhausted and not loving and supportive? 

Geesh.


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## Anon Pink

Because WE don't get to pass judgement on other people's lives, especially when those lives are working for them!

Because you don't get to hold her feet to the fire when you don't even hold your own feet to the fire.

Because you need to look at your own life and stop looking into other people's lives.


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## turnera

Oh, yeah, cos that's how this all works, right? ONLY the people who have bypassed all their problems and done what's needed can legitimately post here? Good luck with that; may as well just shut down the site.

I'm an equal opportunity hold-your-feet-to-the-fire poster. Men AND women should be accountable for their own sh*t. Might wanna try it.


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## farsidejunky

Anon Pink said:


> Give it a rest T.


AP, I think T has valid points. 

Unless we are here for only empathy and coddling.


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## Anon Pink

Far, coddling and empathy have their proper place when giving assistance. But that's not the point I wish to make.

There is a lid for every pot. This couple obviously found each other and fell in love and started a family all without anyone pronouncing who should be behaving what way. This lid found this pot and they fit.

As I said, I read the first 2 page and these last 2 pages. They're a young couple who got off course. They've been reading and talking and that's excellent. That's huge!

Now they need time to put it all into practice without anyone here telling them everything they've done wrong.

Change happens one step at a time. We have to give them time.


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## farsidejunky

I don't disagree.

I don't want to dismiss the defensiveness, either. It is a barrier to growth. 

Where is the line between enabling and empowering?

I know I have asked that question in some form or fashion at least a dozen times since my time on TAM. I am beginning to think it is rhetorical.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## jld

farsidejunky said:


> I don't disagree.
> 
> I don't want to dismiss the defensiveness, either. It is a barrier to growth.
> 
> Where is the line between enabling and empowering?
> 
> I know I have asked that question in some form or fashion at least a dozen times since my time on TAM. I am beginning to think it is rhetorical.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


How exactly did you want to see wistful empowered, far?


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## farsidejunky

jld said:


> How exactly did you want to see wistful empowered, far?


By lowering her defensiveness, and seeing her part in the problems in their dynamic.

What Turnera, BL and others have said has merit. But she is not listening; she is triggering and deflecting.

Make no mistake, there are areas where the mister needs help, too. NMMNG and Hold On To Your N.U.T's are needed stat.

But for her to deflect truth shoes an unwillingness to be introspective. I hope she let's those defenses down.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## jld

farsidejunky said:


> By lowering her defensiveness, and seeing her part in the problems in their dynamic.
> 
> What Turnera, BL and others have said has merit. But she is not listening; she is triggering and deflecting.
> 
> Make no mistake, there are areas where the mister needs help, too. NMMNG and Hold On To Your N.U.T's are needed stat.
> 
> But for her to deflect truth shoes an unwillingness to be introspective. I hope she let's those defenses down.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


What do you see as her part in the problems in the dynamic, far?

What do you see as truth that she was deflecting?


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## farsidejunky

To learn how to be empathetic.

To learn how not to own her husband's emotions.

To learn that she is mistreating her husband in the name of not allowing herself to be mistreated, then justifying it.

To be more cognizant of her husband's need for recognition and respect.

To understand that doing these things is not necessarily being the leader, but rather just being loving.


Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## mjgh06

Okay I read about three pages and that was enough...

You both are still in love. You both have found yourselves in a rut. You both are at fault.

I could say read this book, look this up, etc... but reality is nothing can fix the relationship but the two of you. Counseling won't help, books, won't help, we can't help. 

Marriage is no different than a job and you have to think of it like that. There will be days you don't want to go to work, but to pay the bills you have to; there will be days where you don't want to deal with the complaining and issues in your marriage, but to keep it going you have to.

For Mr. Wistful: I was a highly paid female exec and I understand the pressures of that world. To you I say start thinking of your spouse and home life as "part of your high-priority job assignments", not the leftover after the long day. You schedule lunch meeting for business and you can do the same for your spouse. Most execs wear glasses that allow them to focus at work and get the job done. We push everything else out of focus until the task is completed. You have to reprogram your thinking to include the family/spouse as one of those top projects and not as the distraction. You can do it. I many times said I was having a business lunch with a client just so I could spend the lunch time with my husband. I don't doubt you want to have the time, you just have to reprogram how you do it and think about it.

Mrs. Wistful: You have been blessed to be stay-at-home with a husband who is providing the material things you desire, not out there chasing tail, and he still loves and adores you. Your life can be stressful. I know this too. When the pressures got to much, I gave up my exec life and became the stay-at-home spouse. So I have seen both sides. But from what I read you want it all - the material needs satisfied and the doting husband. That is a reality you can not have. There is a mid-point where he can make changes that will provide more of the connection you want, but material needs cost and the job he does provides that. You need to change your thinking into allowing yourself to love that he works - really. You say it but inside you don't believe it. I know. You feel neglected, overwhelmed, unappreciated. Start honestly believing and knowing that he works like he does ALL FOR YOU. It is an act of love, a way to show you that you are loved and appreciated. You have made it very clear than downsizing or changing jobs is not going to happen. So this is what you got. You are a very smart woman and I know you know how to fake yourself into thinking different until it becomes reality. So all you have to do is start thinking the truth - that every day your husband leaves to go to work or works late - that is an I love you.

For both of you - you make enough money to hire a nanny/housekeeper to help out a few days a week. This will help Mrs. Wistful a lot. You also make enough to plan getaways every few months - don't tell me you can't plan a business trip if needed.

You are both still in it together, life just has gotten in the way and it's time to rearrange them.


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## jld

farsidejunky said:


> To learn how to be empathetic.
> 
> To learn how not to own her husband's emotions.
> 
> To learn that she is mistreating her husband in the name of not allowing herself to be mistreated, then justifying it.
> 
> To be more cognizant of her husband's need for recognition and respect.
> 
> To understand that doing these things is not necessarily being the leader, but rather just being loving.
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


I definitely think that taking the lead with active listening and empathy in general is being the emotional leader of the relationship. It is taking the initial steps to solve problems. I think it is what turnera and Blossom were trying to groom her for. It is what I was trying to groom Mr Wistful for.

If he wants admiration and respect, he will have to earn it. And for the record, I think she does admire and respect him. She is just overwhelmed with caring for little ones right now, and feeling isolated.


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## jld

Mr Wistful does seem limited in terms of emotional strength. To that end, Mrs Wistful may need to become the emotional leader if the marriage is to survive.

But that is a heavy load to carry in addition to caring for the children, and sounds like a recipe for burnout.


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## farsidejunky

jld said:


> I definitely think that taking the lead with active listening and empathy in general is being the emotional leader of the relationship. It is taking the initial steps to solve problems. I think it is what turnera and Blossom were trying to groom her for. It is what I was trying to groom Mr Wistful for.
> 
> If he wants admiration and respect, he will have to earn it. And for the record, I think she does admire and respect him. She is just overwhelmed with caring for little ones right now, and feeling isolated.


See, my advice is to rise above pigeonholing them into roles. How about just doing it for each other, rather than trying to get it to conform to your idea of a power dynamic?

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## jld

farsidejunky said:


> See, my advice is to rise above pigeonholing them into roles. How about just doing it for each other, rather than trying to get it to conform to your idea of a power dynamic?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Just calling it the way I see it, far. And hoping that she will not burn out from it.


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## farsidejunky

jld said:


> Just calling it the way I see it, far. And hoping that she will not burn out from it.


She will either rise to the occasion, or she won't. The same goes for both of them. Each will find out what they are made of.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## jld

farsidejunky said:


> She will either rise to the occasion, or she won't. The same goes for both of them. Each will find out what they are made of.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


I think she is going to have to be the leader, and to make peace with that. While he might be able to develop more emotional strength, there is probably a ceiling to it. 

People do not seem to fundamentally change. Mrs Wistful is seeking something that I don't think Mr Wistful can deliver. 

As long as she can accept his limitations, and still have it be worthwhile to her to be married to him, they should be okay.


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## Blossom Leigh

Mr. Wistful is quite strong enough. She will not have to abandon her role for them to progress.


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## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> Mr. Wistful is quite strong enough. She will not have to abandon her role for them to progress.


I disagree. He is very sensitive. If he were not, he would not be taking her words personally. He would look past them to their underlying message.

She has already taken quite a leadership role this last year. She was reading books and trying to follow what she learned. She can continue to grow as a leader by following your suggestion to look past his words into his underlying feelings. 

It will also help her to accept his limitations. He will likely never be as emotionally strong as she is. That is probably her greatest frustration, and her greatest challenge in this marriage, at least at this time.

That does not mean he cannot improve. He surely can. But she needs to be patient, and again, accepting. And focusing on his strengths, his financial provision, for example, and his basically good heart, will help make the rest easier.


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## BrockLanders

mr wistful said:


> The truth hurts
> 
> You are absolutely right. 12 hour days in IT are not easy, and at the same time I can do little things such as hold the door, and carry the diaper bag etc.


12 hours in IT work is an absolute meat grinder. I work in IT and I usually clock in 2 or 3 hours at home before I get to work a 10-12 hour day. It's absolutely thankless work, no one will heap praise upon you because nothing is broken and when something is broken you're showered with phone calls, emails, texts all while fixing what's broken. I think working in a coal mine would be easier at times, at least when work is done you don't bring your work home with you every day.

I'd stay at home in a second and take care of the kids if she could make the same amount of money, not to say that it's so easy, but it's a job that at least pays dividends of joy.


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## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> I disagree. He is very sensitive. If he were not, he would not be taking her words personally. He would look past them to their underlying message.
> 
> She has already taken quite a leadership role this last year. She was reading books and trying to follow what she learned. She can continue to grow as a leader by following your suggestion to look past his words into his underlying feelings.
> 
> It will also help her to accept his limitations. He will likely never be as emotionally strong as she is. That is probably her greatest frustration, and her greatest challenge in this marriage, at least at this time.
> 
> That does not mean he cannot improve. He surely can. But she needs to be patient, and again, accepting. And focusing on his strengths, his financial provision, for example, and his basically good heart, will help make the rest easier.


He could be innately sensitive by God's design, therefore I seeva good way forward for him is organizing his thoughts and perspectives accurately. Also both cultivating empathy, patience, and gratitude will go a long way. She needs to learn to be his respite and visa versa.


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## turnera

Agreed, she needs to focus on his needs. Haven't seen much of that yet.


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## jld

turnera said:


> Agreed, she needs to focus on his needs. Haven't seen much of that yet.


He said she was doing a very good job of it. They just had a few difficult days recently.


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## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> He could be innately sensitive by God's design, therefore I seeva good way forward for him is organizing his thoughts and perspectives accurately. Also both cultivating empathy, patience, and gratitude will go a long way. She needs to learn to be his respite and visa versa.


I agree that he is naturally sensitive. And I definitely think she has to accept that and keep reasonable expectations if she does not want to be continually disappointed.


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## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> I agree that he is naturally sensitive. And I definitely think she has to accept that and keep reasonable expectations if she does not want to be continually disappointed.


Agree


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## Anon Pink

Last word


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## farsidejunky

Anon Pink said:


> Last word


So you thought...



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## Anon Pink

farsidejunky said:


> So you thought...
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


We might have to get a Mod to lock this thread because...


Last word


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## TheTruthHurts

Word


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## Anon Pink

TheTruthHurts said:


> Word


Word meaning last.....


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## TheTruthHurts

.


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## Blossom Leigh

LOL... @Anon Pink now that gave me a chuckle


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