# Can I make myself feel UNjealous??



## questar1 (Aug 4, 2011)

OK, weird tale here. 
I've been married 4 years.
15 years ago, husband (single at the time) allowed a young couple to rent his basement. The wife was pregnant (with her 4th child; 3rd baby daddy) and chose a home birth, which my husband accidentally ended up helping with. The experience moved him deeply. He told me it was the most deeply connected he had ever felt with another person. 
Some time later, he and this young lady (22 yrs younger) commenced an intense sexual affair, and she ended up divorcing her husband. The affair ended and she left to take up with yet another man. 
BTW, none of her 4 children lives with her; she "can't handle them."
After all these years, she's now pregnant again (baby daddy #4; not married to him), living very far away, and has called on my husband to attend her birth!
I have met her and feel sick when I'm around her; my husband admits she "goes through men like water." She is goofy and giggly and acts like she owns my husband--and any other man who's around. One time when she was visiting I realized I was the only person in the group who had not slept with her. Creepy.
I am refusing to travel with him to attend her birth. Husband says I'm ridiculously jealous & isn't speaking to me. 
I know there's no risk here and have told him I'm fine with him going on his own, but I won't go.
No matter how hard I try I can't make myself just relax and say, "So what, it's all in the past, and he chose to marry me." It's not working.
Why the hell should he attend this woman's birth? BTW my husband is a physician but that's no excuse. I feel like there's something wrong with me for not wanting him to be in that intimate situation with her again. I don't understand myself. :scratchhead:


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

He shouldn't attend the birth. He should have had better sense than to mess around with a woman who was obvious trouble, whether he was married or not. He's had an affair with this woman and the only logical position would be for him to have zero future contact with her unless he's got a child with her. There's nothing wrong with you. You may be the only rational person in this equation.


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## questar1 (Aug 4, 2011)

The baby he helped deliver was appointed his god-daughter, but again, at this point the child doesn't even live with her mom, who is a dysfunctional mother. So she & my husband don't exactly have a child together but sometimes I feel as if he thinks they do. 
Here's the thing--this woman is vibrantly sexual without boundaries. When I'm around her I feel like a prudish old schoolteacher although I am happily sexual and have had my share of exciting romances. It's as if being around her makes me feel as though my light has gone out because she is so uninhibited about her own "light." I feel ugly and insignificant. (I am 11 yrs older than she is.) She is not physically very attractive, pretty ordinary, but all the guys kind of flock around her and she seems to encourage it. How the heck would my husband ever admit to that? He's a guy. So I feel like I should just laugh and say "that's the way she is" and let it go. But man, it just pushes all my buttons. She's just.... I dunno, a flirt? the first time we met I had an intense urge to say "get the hell out of my house and don't ever come back." I felt so threatened. What's wrong with me???


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

First of all, by my definition, you are not jealous. You are concerned. You have invested heavily into this relationship, that's what marriage is about and you are right to be concerned about forward planning that concerns you or your husband. Quite frankly, I'm not going to let anyone waltz into my relationship that I have invested in without a fight.

It sounds to me as if your husband is caught up in a fantasy with this woman ---earth mother and maneater, rolled up into one. And don't get wrapped unp into the cliches. Age has nothing to do with it nor does looks (my bf kept telling me that he didn't find his EA attractive and didn't want to have sex with her again, they had dated before he met me) But during this period, he did turn down sex from me --so was he contemplating having it with her--

My suggestion: Don't believe anything that he says, look at his actions. What is her situation that she can't simply access welfare or some other benefits source to have her baby. He should be making the effort there, if he must be involved. I would simply be direct and say that you don't want him to deliver her baby and since he has a personal relationship with her, it is professionally unethical. 

And if he goes against your wished, do the 180 on him and come back here for further support.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

"She's just.... I dunno, a flirt?" I think the word you're looking for is "tramp". She's easy and that's reason enough to make her interesting to guys. McDonalds doesn't see millions of burgers because they have such great fare. They are quick, cheap, and getting in and out takes little time or effort. So, your husband is the godfather. So is Marlon Brando. Is he going, too? There is no way under God's green earth that my wife would remain godmother to a kid fathered by a guy she had an affair with. Sorry. Wouldn't happen. So, she has "light". So do oncoming trains.


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## questar1 (Aug 4, 2011)

What words can I use to explain this to the dh? He acts as if truly enlightened people just "get over" these things. I'm a spiritual slug, apparently. 
How do you talk to a guy about this w/o sounding like a jealous shrew? I don't like to threaten & don't want to.
I feel trapped--if I explain my feelings I just sound plain ole jealous & untrusting. If I use the word "inappropriate" he makes fun of me.
It seems so obvious that you just don't do this sort of thing--but he doesn't see it that way at all. How come he doesn't get it? What do I say to him?


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

questar1 said:


> What words can I use to explain this to the dh? He acts as if truly enlightened people just "get over" these things. I'm a spiritual slug, apparently.
> How do you talk to a guy about this w/o sounding like a jealous shrew? I don't like to threaten & don't want to.
> I feel trapped--if I explain my feelings I just sound plain ole jealous & untrusting. If I use the word "inappropriate" he makes fun of me.
> It seems so obvious that you just don't do this sort of thing--but he doesn't see it that way at all. How come he doesn't get it? What do I say to him?


You should ask him to explain explicitly what he wants you "to get over." That he finds some one else attractive / seductive while you have made sacrifices to be in this marriage (ie, you neither find nor act on that sentiment with other men). 

I would love to get the male opinion on this. But what I have noticed over the years with my exH (of 10 years) and the other boyfriends, is that men like to feel needed and fall crazy over the vulnerable woman. This flies in the face of any advice that says that men prefer reasonable, drama free and sometimes, independent women. 

In your case, I would say and explain less. You are hurt, disappointed, you had always been able to get better from him than this and he has let you down in this case.

What I found interesting with my bf is that he said at one point he felt bad because he felt as if he had led his EA on. Really? She who told him that she was doing OLD at the time; who, he finally admitted he was also aware of her dating the guy who became her steady.......and yet, he worried that HE was leading her on. I asked him, did he ever wonder if he was leading me on. Oh, but we're together now, he said. 

It might be interesting if you notice that he tries to demonise you. For example, my bf and I were in an airport in which a woman approahced me and after deciding that she and I had no common language, I tried to ignore her. She was on the same flight as we were. Three months later, my bf brings this us and tells me how rude I was to a stranger who was violating my personal space. Now,mind that was St. Pat's weekend and just the year before, when hewas "dating" this woman, they did a St Pat's pub crawl well chronicled on her FB wall complete with photos. That year, he was not invited. so what does he do, he tells me that I should have helped her. Help her do what? I ask, I don't know he says and so it goes on.


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## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby (Nov 7, 2011)

Your husband meeting her is out of this world crazy! He owes nothing to her. There are professionals that are there for home births and hospital births.

Your husband should have ZERO contact with this woman. It's unbelievable he expects you to be okay with this. It really sounds like he is still emotionally attached to this woman.

I personally would put my foot down with him going. I'd probably leave my husband if he went and did this. I would definatly give an ultimatum with this one. If my husband went on a trip like this, then our marriage wouldn't mean anything to him. Actually, I would of left at the affair. That's my number one deal breaker.

You are far from jealous. This is disrespectful on his part. My husband and I have an agreement not to casually talk to others of the opposite sex outside of work or neighbors. It's worked well for the last 12 years.


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## Inside_Looking_Out (Apr 8, 2012)

I'mInLoveWithMyHubby said:


> I personally would put my foot down with him going. I'd probably leave my husband if he went and did this. I would definatly give an ultimatum with this one. If my husband went on a trip like this, then our marriage wouldn't mean anything to him. Actually, I would of left at the affair. That's my number one deal breaker.



From my understanding of the original post, the OP and her husband met and married years after her husband had the affair with the now pregnant woman. The pregnant woman had a significant other at the time though. 

As far as what to say to the OP's husband? For some as 'enlightened' as the husband thinks he is, he is not very intune with the OP's feelings. 

If you can approach him and voice your own feelings and concerns, without 'pre-accusing' him of anything, maybe you can get through to him. If you are a school teacher, then you have plenty of conflict resolution training, and probably have already tried this though.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Inside_Looking_Out said:


> From my understanding of the original post, the OP and her husband met and married years after her husband had the affair with the now pregnant woman. The pregnant woman had a significant other at the time though.
> 
> As far as what to say to the OP's husband? For some as 'enlightened' as the husband thinks he is, he is not very intune with the OP's feelings.
> 
> If you can approach him and voice your own feelings and concerns, without 'pre-accusing' him of anything, maybe you can get through to him. * If you are a school teacher,* then you have plenty of conflict resolution training, and probably have already tried this though.


I don't think she said she was a school teacher. I think she said she felt like a school teacher next to this "man eater."


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## Jeff/BC (Apr 1, 2012)

So your husband, a doctor, has offered to deliver a baby for a woman who was once his lover. You have no reason to believe that he will cheat. He has offered to take you along as chaperone and you have declined. Do I have that all correct?

_Assuming I haven't missed any important details there_, then in my opinion, he's right and you are not. You are trying to limit his ability to do good based solely on your own insecurity. That is not something I would tolerate -- either the limiting of my good deeds or the insecurity. That being said, if I were your husband your obvious distress with the whole thing would cause me to not go. It would also cause me to wonder who I had married and whether I could live the rest of my life like this. I'd be wondering whether I needed to divorce you for the sake of both our mental healths. There would darned sure be some serious MC for us and possibly IC for you.

Jealousy is an ugly, ugly thing. You're not going to be able to explain your side of this because there is nothing to explain and, unless I missed something, you can't even explain it to yourself. What you CAN do is say to him, "Honey, as your wife I am begging you to find another doctor who can go help this girl and stay home with me." If that doesn't get his attention then my opinion is going to change dramatically.

So there you have it. Some posters here say you should leave him. I'm wondering if he should leave you. So that maybe highlights the real question... do you want to get divorced?

The answer to your question, can you make yourself feel "unjealous" is "yes".


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## SlowlyGettingWiser (Apr 7, 2012)

Oh my freakin' goodness! I could not even read the rest of the posts yet without commenting on 'unbelievable's'. You are HILARIOUS. And so on the mark. I am laughing out loud!

Too bad there's not a way to 'like' a post more than once! I would have 'liked' it about 100 times !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

questar1 said:


> What words can I use to explain this to the dh? He acts as if truly enlightened people just "get over" these things. I'm a spiritual slug, apparently.
> How do you talk to a guy about this w/o sounding like a jealous shrew? I don't like to threaten & don't want to.
> I feel trapped--if I explain my feelings I just sound plain ole jealous & untrusting. If I use the word "inappropriate" he makes fun of me.
> It seems so obvious that you just don't do this sort of thing--but he doesn't see it that way at all. How come he doesn't get it? What do I say to him?


Not sure which words my wife would use if she were in your situation but I'm pretty certain she'd use an axe handle to make her punctution marks. How about, "Choose." Please feel free to go but understand that I will feel free to change the locks. It's either me or supertramp.


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## SlowlyGettingWiser (Apr 7, 2012)

Jeff/BC: maybe it's because you're a guy, and the other posters appear to be women; but, have YOU ever been in a delivery room (wife/gf) during a birth? Would YOU want a man who is NOT the baby's father, not currently in a committed relationship with your wife/gf, not the attending physician (I mean surely someone has been this tramp's ob/gyn all these months?) in the delivery room, watching your naked (or nearly naked) wife/gf push a 6/7/8 pound baby out of her vagina? I mean, really, would you??? You would not find that the least bit creepy, inappropriate, invasive and, well I'll say it again, CREEPY?


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## Jeff/BC (Apr 1, 2012)

Yes, I have been in a delivery room. Twice actually. At a moment like childbirth, I would want the woman delivering the baby to be deciding who she wants there. Sheez, that looked like hell on earth to me. I'd be wanting the woman to have whatever comfort there is to be had. I think me and most guys figured out some time ago that women have vaginas. And I gotta tell you, there was absolutely nothing sexy about watching a woman give birth to me. It mostly looked messy and traumatic. As I recall, the big emotion was "thank god it's done and the baby is fine".

But I don't understand how that scenario relates to this question. It's a pretty basic question of insecurity, trust and boundaries. The question is whether or not jealousy is allowed to run the marriage or not. I would not allow it to run mine. Your mileage may vary.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

questar1 said:


> What words can I use to explain this to the dh? He acts as if truly enlightened people just "get over" these things. I'm a spiritual slug, apparently.
> How do you talk to a guy about this w/o sounding like a jealous shrew? I don't like to threaten & don't want to.
> I feel trapped--if I explain my feelings I just sound plain ole jealous & untrusting. If I use the word "inappropriate" he makes fun of me.
> It seems so obvious that you just don't do this sort of thing--but he doesn't see it that way at all. How come he doesn't get it? What do I say to him?


First words: You will not meet up with you affair partner EVER again. You chose to cheat on me with her. You chose to betray me and our marriage for SEX with her. You said you chose to return to the marriage when she dumped you. No she calls and you want to run to her. 

So here is the deal: Go to her, and I file for divorce.

it is very obvious he has ZERO respect for your feelings, you, or your marriage. He wants the life style she's living - no responsibilities, no commitment, AND no consequences for being a piece of trash. 

So you need to explain to him that there are consequences. She has a string of children she's dumped on other people to raise. Each of those children is going to grow up needing therapy because of how she has treated them as a mother. They are going to have messed up relationships their entire lives. Now for him: His consequence is that you WILL not accept him humiliating you and trivializing your feelings and place in this relationship. You will divorce him if he goes to her. Not a threat. It's you standing up for your dignity and refusing to be treated like a fool. 

The OW is a pure tramp and it's obvious that she will have sex with him. BTW - he knows this and IS hoping to fire up the cheating no doubt.


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## SlowlyGettingWiser (Apr 7, 2012)

questar1:

YOU ARE NOT CRAZY !!!

Your husband even considering going to this birth is CRAZY!

There are only 2 scenarios I can see for his considering this, and they're BOTH inappropriate:

1.) He is going to be the attending physician. This is inappropriate because
* he has had a previous, intimate relationship with this woman; in fact, an AFFAIR that broke up her marriage.
* he has not been her OB/GYN throughout her pregnancy, has not been her OB/GYN throughout her life and her previous pregnancies and thus has NO KNOWLEDGE of her current medical condition.

He is NOT an appropriate choice (for medical, ethical AND moral reasons) to be her attending physician.

2.) He is going to attend the birth as a "deeply moving experience." Yeah, alright, get real! I'm sure the night she got impregnated was also a "deeply moving experience," but I notice he wasn't there for that one either (thank God.) If he finds the birth process such a "deeply moving experience" (which it certainly is...for the appropriate people involved) then he should rent a freakin' documentary!

Tell your husband calmly that you are not jealous.
Tell him you think it is entirely inappropriate for him to attend this birth, with or without you.
Tell him he can check out ALL the "deeply moving experiences" he wants to at the local teaching hospital.
Remind him that he is NOT the tramp's surrogate partner , he is an ex-lover. He is NOT the baby daddy. He is not her current partner. He is NOT her attending physician. He is NOT a family member.
Remind him that he IS your husband. 
Remind him that you do not like this woman; not her morals, not her behavior, not the way she conducts her life.
Remind him that he made vows to you 'forsaking all others' and that since you have a sincere and honest dislike for this woman, that YOUR wishes with regard to the matter should take precedence over the wishes of his ex-lover.
Remind him that SHE is no longer a part of his life, YOU are. SHE is a part of his past.

Then ask him, as an intelligent, well-educated MAN how HE would feel if YOU invited an EX-LOVER into the delivery room while you delivered HUBBY's baby. Would HE like it if you had another MAN who was not involved in the delivery watching you give birth to his child? Ask him if that would not offend him as a MAN...to have another MAN privy to such a personal and special moment for you two.

If he tells you it WOULD bother him, tell him THAT is how you feel. You are entitled to your feelings and the discussion is over.

If he tells you it would NOT bother him (I gotta say he'd be lying; men are very territorial about vaginas as we all know), tell him that you're disappointed that he is NOT as logical as you had thought. Tell him that he either respects you and your wishes ABOVE the wishes of an ex-lover, or you will have to seriously consider how committed he actually is to your marriage. Ex-lovers are EXES. No one on these boards has EVER condoned a married spouse seeing an ex-lover against the wishes of a current spouse (unless a mutual child was involved.)

You're not nuts! He and this 'drive-thru' 'ho are!


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## SlowlyGettingWiser (Apr 7, 2012)

Jeff/BC:

So I guess if your wife wanted ALL of her ex-BFs, ex-lovers, ex-flings to be present (for whatever reason) IN THE ROOM, you would be all...."long as she's comfy".

She is an ex-lover. Once you are married, ex-lovers go bye-bye, forever, for good, and for good reason.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree!


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Jeff/BC said:


> (*1)Yes, I have been in a delivery room. Twice actually. * * (2)At a moment like childbirth, I would want the woman delivering the baby to be deciding who she wants there. *Sheez, that looked like hell on earth to me. I'd be wanting the woman to have whatever comfort there is to be had. I think me and most guys figured out some time ago that women have vaginas.*(3) And I gotta tell you, there was absolutely nothing sexy about watching a woman give birth to me. * It mostly looked messy and traumatic. As I recall, the big emotion was "thank god it's done and the baby is fine".
> 
> *(4) But I don't understand how that scenario relates to this question. It's a pretty basic question of insecurity, trust and boundaries.* *(5) The question is whether or not jealousy is allowed to run the marriage or not. I would not allow it to run mine. Your mileage may vary. *


1. What relationship did you have with the birth mother to be allowed in he delivery room?

2. The birth mother has a right to some degree, but everyone has the right of refusal. I have certainly heard of birth fathers who would prefer not be in the delivery room. Perhaps you should work on those men first. But a man who is not the father in any way and has no professional role in the matter (that is, SOMEONE is paying whether the mother, the insurance company the hospital.....)
3. So if that's true, what else could encourage a married man to want to take a trip to be in the delivery room of an unrelated woman......
4. It's not a question of insecurity. But it is one of boundaries. And I think a good one. There are a fair few people who will say, but I did help her, how could I not fall in love / lust / whatever. Have you read about the NY firefighters after 9/11. Those who survived were assigned to the families whose firefighter husband did not survive. By a year later, there were so many divorces due to surviving firfighters falling in love with their late colleagues wife. In other words, let's not create the environment that creates problems.

In other word, perhaps you like that sense of danger, living on the edge, maybe having that "almost" moment. If you need that, then maybe you should remain single. But then you would be left wrecking other people's marriages.

5. This is not a question of jealousy. It is a question of appropriate agreed upon boundaries.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

No one should ever accept their spouse having on going contact with their affair partner. None.

That was the OP's first mistake in dealing with him cheating. Absolutely no contact with the OW should have been happening. 

Now the cheating husband feels entitled to having that contact and is escalating the situation. This is beyond even Jerry Springer: "My husbands affair partner whats him to be her birthing partner for her new EX-husbands baby"


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## SlowlyGettingWiser (Apr 7, 2012)

Shaggy:

I think you misunderstood the original post. MY understanding is that hubby had an intense sexual affair with OW that ENDED LONG BEFORE current wife ever entered the picture.

Affair: about 15 years ago
Married: about 4 years ago

And that does, somehow, make it even weirder...they haven't been together in OVER A DECADE?!?

However, I totally agree with you that a spouse should NEVER AGAIN have contact with an ex-spouse/lover/gf UNLESS there is a mutual child involved.


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

questar1 said:


> The baby he helped deliver was appointed his god-daughter, but again, at this point the child doesn't even live with her mom, who is a dysfunctional mother. So she & my husband don't exactly have a child together but sometimes I feel as if he thinks they do.
> Here's the thing--this woman is vibrantly sexual without boundaries. When I'm around her I feel like a prudish old schoolteacher although I am happily sexual and have had my share of exciting romances. It's as if being around her makes me feel as though my light has gone out because she is so uninhibited about her own "light." I feel ugly and insignificant. (I am 11 yrs older than she is.) She is not physically very attractive, pretty ordinary, but all the guys kind of flock around her and she seems to encourage it. How the heck would my husband ever admit to that? He's a guy. So I feel like I should just laugh and say "that's the way she is" and let it go. But man, it just pushes all my buttons. She's just.... I dunno, a flirt? the first time we met I had an intense urge to say "get the hell out of my house and don't ever come back." I felt so threatened. What's wrong with me???


Guys flock to her because she's a tramp; they all know that they can have a slice whenever they want. Usually, women like that charge a fee. Don't be jealous of her. She's gross. Sitting around the room and you were the only one who hadn't had sex with her? That's just groadie.


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## Jeff/BC (Apr 1, 2012)

SlowlyGettingWiser said:


> So I guess if your wife wanted ALL of her ex-BFs, ex-lovers, ex-flings to be present (for whatever reason) IN THE ROOM, you would be all...."long as she's comfy".


Yes, I would... absolutely. If that were not true, then she wouldn't be my wife. Look, if my wife wanted mickey mouse and Donald Trump in the delivery room I'd be in favor. I require trust in my marriage... real trust.



> She is an ex-lover. Once you are married, ex-lovers go bye-bye, forever, for good, and for good reason.


Perhaps in your world, not in mine. Both Carol and I maintain friendships with a lot of our past lovers. We both think that is a good and healthy thing. I love it when a past flame finds Carol or vice versa. Heck, there's at least one that she still speaks about in obviously loving tones. None of that is a problem _for us_.



> I guess we'll have to agree to disagree!


Sure, and different viewpoints are fine. But I don't think it's entirely irrational to say "I trust my spouse and if I didn't I'd divorce them". Honesty, I've got better things to do with my time and my life then police Carol.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

A guy who has nailed his downstairs neighbor repeatedly has pretty much lost the expectation of his wife's trust. If you have multiple arrests for theft, it's not the manager's fault you don't get the cashier's job. Trust is earned. Like virginity, it's easily lost. It can be eventually re-earned but not by hanging around the scene of the crime. If you're caught molesting kids, hanging around the playground is a lousy way of proving you've changed.


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## SlowlyGettingWiser (Apr 7, 2012)

questar1:

Remove ALL pregnancy/emotion from the equation.

Hubby is married to wife.
Hubby's ex-lover invites Hubby to come and see her with or without wife.
Wife has met ex-lover and does not like her.
Wife does NOT want to go and does not want Hubby to go.

If that was the story, EVERYONE would be agreeing that HUBBY should respect WIFE's decision that she is uncomfortable with either of them going to see ex-lover. End of story.

The fact that she is giving birth is not germane to the issue. Hubby is NOT the only physician in the world. There are plenty of them wherever ex-lover lives. So his being there is NOT a medical necessity. It is just something that ex-lover (and hubby) would LIKE.

Since when do the wants/likes of an ex-lover take precedence over the wants/likes of a current spouse?


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Why bring the Germans into this?


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

If a man has a wife he intends to keep, assuming she is reasonably sane, if he pursues any course of action which makes her feel ugly and unwanted, that should be reason enough to change course. Why would I deliberately subject my wife to needless suffering if I had any reasonable alternative?


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Questar, You have never mentioned how and how much this woman remained in contact with your husband.


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## questar1 (Aug 4, 2011)

The good news is I'm laughing. In all these replies I see all the angles of the agony I'm going through. 
The thing is that my husband & I generally have a relationship pretty much like what Jeff describes--we absolutely do NOT police each other & there's virtually no jealousy; at our age there's plenty of opportunity to be jealous of a bunch of exes, and we don't bother. That's why this situation is so upsetting. This particular woman, the moment I met her, set off every alarm in my body! I literally began shaking! I had to stay physically far away from her in order just to function. 
But up to that point I had no PHILOSOPHICAL problem w/ her coming to visit--a la Jeff's idea of being reasonable. Pretty much our exes come and go in our lives, no big deal. This lady is DIFFERENT. 
That's why I wanted to know how to get UNjealous--this is so freakishly different of an experience esp in this relationship. 
The thing is that the dh's intimacy with this woman began when he assisted in her previous birth, 15 years ago. They then went on to have, acc to him, a mind-blowing affair, whether that was spiritual or sexual is not clear, but she was married at the time. Now he wants to go and basically re-create the same set-up: She has a man in her life, is birthing his kid, and my dh wants to be there because.... because... This is where I go to pieces. 
It's not that I don't trust him. It's that he is going where I am not allowed to go, into that intimate space he had/has with another person. Like taking a drug. It's like watching a reformed addict say "just this once."


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## SlowlyGettingWiser (Apr 7, 2012)

After mulling it over, I assume you're going to be addressing this with hubby.

Let us know how it goes? I'd like to know the resolution.


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## Jeff/BC (Apr 1, 2012)

questar1 said:


> Like taking a drug. It's like watching a reformed addict say "just this once."


You're interpretation.

That being said, if this is really just a one off deal and entirely out of character with the rest of your relationship then I'm more inclined to heed your instincts. Not, by the way, that I necessarily think you're right. 

But what I do think is that I'd be unwilling to allow Carol to generally restrict my social activities for no apparent reason. I would, however, be willing to let her do it very rarely if it was out of character... if for no other reason than I don't want her to worry needlessly. The first of those options is a massive red flag to me. The second goes squarely into the "stuff happens" bin.


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## questar1 (Aug 4, 2011)

I'm grateful for the guy's view, Jeff. Here's my question to you, then: Would Carol be okay if you chose not to go along with her to visit an ex under interesting circumstances, but let her go on her own? My dh is angry that I won't participate in this with him. All I sd was "I'm uncomfortable around Tracy, but I don't mind if you want to be there," and he blew up at me. Also out of character. To me THAT is a huge red flag--as if he wanted me along as a talisman of protection, perhaps? to prove it's okay, put my stamp of approval on it? I'm willing to put it in the category of "Don't ask, don't tell," if he wants to go, but he's insisting I be party to it. Please give me the guy's explanation of that if you could.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Here's a guy's explanation, thought not from the source you sought. Your husband's adultary was selfish and disrespectful. His acceptance or continued acceptance of the role of godparent was selfish and disrespectful (and presumptious in the extreme). His maintaining any contact with the object of his affair for any reason was more selfishness and more disrespect. Agreeing to go to this birth was selfish and disrespectful. Not permitting you the common decency of having feelings and an opinion on the matter....guess what? More selfishness and more disrespect. Looks like a pattern to me and I wouldn't expect anything else from a self-centered, disrespectful person. Just a smidge of concern for your feelings and none of this would have happened or continued.


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## Jeff/BC (Apr 1, 2012)

Disclaimer: There is no such thing as a "guy's explanation". There's just my explanation, his explanation, that guy over there's explanation....

Carol and I would be fine in any conceivable permutation of this. She would think it was weird that a previous lover wanted me there. But she wouldn't feel threatened by my being there. Then again, Carol has never had babies so she has no idea what the whole delivery process is like. She might understand why some previous lover might want me there better if she knew how traumatic the whole thing is. (I just asked her about this earlier).

That being said, you need to understand that if someone showed me video tape, DNA evidence, and a signed affadavit from Carol that she cheated on me I would STILL want to hear it from her lips and I'd still want to understand the context of whatever happened. Many here think I am either naive or lack humility or god only knows what else. I prefer to think I understand my own reality better than total strangers. So far, 17 years shows I'm right. Ask me in another 50 or so and we'll know for sure 

Personally, I think you ought to heed the "out of character" thing. If you read these forums long enough, every single human on the face of the planet has cheated, is about to cheat, is thinking about cheating, etc. Everyone is a lying, cheating scumball who cares not one wit about their partner. There is a certain ... uh ... selection bias here. My question to you, though, is whether or not your husband fits that bill? You know him much better than I.

If not, then ditch the whole "red flag" thing and opt for just asking him the same question you just asked me... openly... non-confrontationally... without expectation of any specific answer and without any intent to argue with anything he might say. In other words, ask with the intent to learn.

Do YOU understand your own reality better than strangers? Does your husband? My general impression is that this has "mountains out of molehills" written all over it. To you I'd want to say, "Put on your big girl panties and go. All of us have to deal with people we don't like all the time." To him I'd want to say, "There are other doctors in the world. Stay freakin at home and attend your marriage and your wife's concerns." Is _any_ of it worth all this mess? Really? You're the one in the situation. You tell me.


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## questar1 (Aug 4, 2011)

Airing this issue has helped me see the truth. It's clear to me now that any seduction I might have feared has already taken place and there is nothing I can do about it. 

Whatever exists betw this woman & my dh exists, and no matter what i say I can't alter that. I am the intruder in their pre-existing relationship. 

However, I don't think it's a real threat to me. It's just a long-term, ongoing mutual seduction. Not so much sexual as emotional, unfortunately exactly what most wives dread the most.

He has this emotional bond with this woman and they both accept it as perfectly normal. Well, yippee for them.

As a married man, he had a great opportunity to respond to her request to attend her birth with, "Let me talk it over with my wife," or, "Well, I'm MARRIED now, remember?"

But--he didn't. Idiot.
But.
Either I accept it or not. Messing with it will just blow it up in my face. Now excuse me while I go jump off a bridge.
{sigh}
What my dh did was wrong, not including me in this decision, but it doesn't matter at this point--he still has the connection he has with her and that's what I have no control over. It's his life. 

Possibly his biggest mistake was simply not to listen to my fears and feelings, and hear me out rather than getting defensive and threatening. We'll see where it goes from here... .


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## Jeff/BC (Apr 1, 2012)

questar1 said:


> AIt's clear to me now that any seduction I might have feared has already taken place and there is nothing I can do about it.


Almost right in my opinion. The thing that I do about all of this stuff, past present and future, is to do my best to make sure I'm the best choice going. In the end, if someone else manages to do better, at least I can say I lost fair and square. I ensure my own position with my own abilities, love, and commitment. Sure, maybe it's a dog eat dog world out there (I don't believe that), but in that case I'll be the baddest dog around if I'm able. I don't believe that Carol owes me anything simply because she said "I do". I believe I have to earn it... each and every day.

I totally agree with the rest of your post. Yup, he made some mistakes here. I think you have also. I think the mistakes on both sides are really pretty small. Go take a look at some of the other threads on this site for a sense of perspective 

If I could wave a magic wand my wish would be that both of you could remember that you love each other and in that context, the mistakes made are small. I'd have you hug each other. Take a good long look in each other's eyes then burst out laughing at how ... well ... trivial it all is. Then seal the deal with a loving kiss.

One thing that might help you to forgive and forget. People get defensive when they are attacked. They don't just do it on general principle. If he got defensive then almost certainly you were attacking whether you knew it or not. It's that ol' "it takes two to tango" thing. Don't you hate that one? *chuckles*


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

At which point did his disrespect for you end? It seems to be an ongoing problem. His adultary only happened to be one way he chose to show it. The problem is between his ears, not between his legs. I don't see his major issue as an emotional attachment to another woman but as a lack of an emotional attachment to his wife. If this OW got hit by a bus, there would be another opportunity around the corner. "We'll see where it goes from here."? That's not hard to imagine. My bet is you'll continue to receive disrespect until you demand better. I never thought it was a smart idea to anger the person who had direct access to my gastrointestinal tract.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Jeff/BC said:


> Almost right in my opinion. *The thing that I do about all of this stuff, past present and future, is to do my best to make sure I'm the best choice going. * In the end, if someone else manages to do better, at least I can say I lost fair and square. I ensure my own position with my own abilities, love, and commitment. Sure, maybe it's a dog eat dog world out there (I don't believe that), but in that case I'll be the baddest dog around if I'm able. I don't believe that Carol owes me anything simply because she said "I do". I believe I have to earn it... each and every day.
> 
> I totally agree with the rest of your post. Yup, he made some mistakes here. I think you have also. I think the mistakes on both sides are really pretty small. Go take a look at some of the other threads on this site for a sense of perspective
> 
> ...


Just dating might be ok to view as a competition. But in an LTR where both members of the couple agree to "invest" in the relationship (ie, forsake others; make economic, financial and temporal decisions inview of the other partner and on the assumption that the other partner is doing the same) then umm, no, as I Put it before someone who waltzes into my partner's life and we're supposed to be compared on the basis of what???? If my partner wants a chance to check out another woman, I want to know about it so that I can make informed decisions thereafter. I don't want to hear about this friend stuff, or being more open or more flexible. If my partner wants to go take a look, then it's with the understanding I may not be waiting for him.

This is the problem that I have with all forms of cheating in a relationship. And this includes the grooming phase of it. I don't like the fact that I could be making important decisions based on false premises.


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## Jeff/BC (Apr 1, 2012)

NextTimeAround said:


> This is the problem that I have with all forms of cheating in a relationship. And this includes the grooming phase of it. I don't like the fact that I could be making important decisions based on false premises.


I understand your viewpoint. Really I do.

My alternate viewpoint looks something like this. My marriage is not a prison for Carol. I am not the cops. I'm the guy who loves her. If she wants to leave she is free to do so. Ideally she'd do it in a more honest way but failing that, any way at all works out fine.


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## KanDo (Jun 15, 2011)

Jeff/BC said:


> So your husband, a doctor, has offered to deliver a baby for a woman who was once his lover. You have no reason to believe that he will cheat. He has offered to take you along as chaperone and you have declined. Do I have that all correct?
> 
> _Assuming I haven't missed any important details there_, then in my opinion, he's right and you are not. You are trying to limit his ability to do good based solely on your own insecurity. That is not something I would tolerate -- either the limiting of my good deeds or the insecurity. That being said, if I were your husband your obvious distress with the whole thing would cause me to not go. It would also cause me to wonder who I had married and whether I could live the rest of my life like this. I'd be wondering whether I needed to divorce you for the sake of both our mental healths. There would darned sure be some serious MC for us and possibly IC for you.
> 
> ...


Sorry, but this is absolute horse Sh!t. Traveling a far distance to attend the birth of a former lover is not "doing good" This is not a purely objective clinical relationship. As noted by the OP own husband , he viewed the first experience as very moving. The mere fact that she is an ex should have kept this from even being considered!

I would NEVER consider being involved in the delivery of an ex. Totally unhealthy!

OP. Just tell your husband you are not accepting of this scheme. You can't control his actions but you expect him to respect your concerns and boundaries


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## Goldmember357 (Jan 31, 2012)

why are you married to this man?

he is a terrible human being he does not treat you with respect he cheats on you and he is a liar all cheaters are liar's.

You should divorce or else you will continue to be unhappy


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## questar1 (Aug 4, 2011)

He hasn't cheated on me depending how you define it. He just cultivates old relationships and calls them "friends." What is it about exes, anyway? As exes, do we have to act as if we know more about the person than the current partner does? That's a really mean thing to do, if so. It may be true but we sure as heck should shut up about it. 
The ex in question does not shut up about it. She makes me feel as though she handed me something that she tried, and used, and changed her mind about, leaving him drooling and sweating. I get her discards--that was how I felt when we met. She went on and on about his habits, his house, his BED, etc. Tacky, tacky. 
All that said, Jeff is probably closest to the mark--I just have to make sure that I am what my dh wants to keep choosing. But he must do the same for me. AT this point I feel like relinquishing him to all of his exes--I am not going to be one of those he will stay in touch with. I did that for years, the "good ex-GF." No more. It doesn't work.


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## SlowlyGettingWiser (Apr 7, 2012)

I say hubby still has an UNHEALTHY emotional attachment to this ex-lover.

Apparently, he won't stop himself. And if ex-lover wants him, she'll be determined to get him. All you can do at this point is protect yourself (physically, emotionally, mentally and financially.)

...you might ask him if he's packing any penicillin for the trip....but I guess that would just be b!tchy.


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## questar1 (Aug 4, 2011)

It's not the sexuality of the attachment that's bugging me. It's the emotional allegiance. There's no penicillin for that, and you can't make a person not feel whatever he or she is feeling for another person. 

I have decided I agree with the multiple posters who conclude that the best thing for a marriage is to leave all those exes X'ed out of the picture. To me, marriage is a clean declaration that all that stuff is done and gone. 

So what my dh has decided to do in attending this birth is shocking UNLESS he is doing it in the context of also agreeing that we're both so completely safe and trustworthy that a little temptation is no danger.

I'm okay with that, EXCEPT: I do not like this woman, and feel physically ill when in her presence. She is cavalier, disrespectful, presumptuous, and tactless about her former familiarity with the man I married. She brings out the ***** in me, which I don't appreciate, becz my dh likes me in part because I am usually logical, calm, cool, and nonjudgmental. This woman sets off every alarm that evolution has put into a woman who knows that her "territory" is being invaded by a cuckoo. This is exactly the kind of woman who would "accidentally" get impregnated on a drunken one-night stand. Oopsie. This woman is one big Oopsie. 

But it's the way she draws men in, like my husband, flipping around her cute eyelashes, and I honestly don't want him to re-create that "incredibly intimate" experience of helping her give birth the first time. Why tempt things? Just to feel good about it? just to play hero one more time? This woman claims she and my dh had a very special relationship in a past life. Now that's a tough one to compete with!

I absolutely agree with the posters who have said that he needs to get past playing hero to an ex, and move on, let it go. At the same time I know Jeff would remind me to let the dh make his own choice and not to worry. 

I much prefer the first option. I want to see that the dh can be a grownup in the face of temptation, first rule of thumb being: Don't go there. 

I'm feeling less jealous and more wise.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Questar, can you be specific about the contact that your H has had with this woman over the years that you two have been together. You make it sound as if the two of you socialise with her along with other people.

I don't know if you can salvage your situation, but I always like looking back to see what the red flags were / should have been.


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## questar1 (Aug 4, 2011)

In answer to your question about the contact they have had: The dh loves to stay in touch with many friends from the past and she is one of them. This means occasional phone calls, holiday cards, and visits. She lives far away but comes back several times a year and always stays at his house as well as the house of another ex-lover. Each time this has happened since we married, I have made sure we have somewhere else to be and she gets the house to herself with her kids and her current lover, which has changed twice in the past five years that I have known her. 
I think there's a difference betw "old friends" and "past lovers." He does not. 
And beyond that, this is exactly the kind of "vulnerable" lost-child type of woman who definitely brings out the "big brother/protector/hero" role in a guy. DH has given her money, I know that, when she's run short (i.e., is between romances).


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## LadyFrog (Feb 27, 2012)

questar. my jaw is on the floor. Big ((hugs)) to you.

I would tell him if he even THINKS about going to this floozy's birth party he can forget about coming home. And tell him he's leaving without his nads because you're going to be fermenting them in a jar on the windowsill.

OMG. What a jerk. And my heart breaks for this piece-of-work's children.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

questar1 said:


> In answer to your question about the contact they have had: The dh loves to stay in touch with many friends from the past and she is one of them. This means occasional phone calls, holiday cards, and visits. She lives far away but comes back several times a year and always stays at his house as well as the house of another ex-lover. Each time this has happened since we married, I have made sure we have somewhere else to be and she gets the house to herself with her kids and her current lover, which has changed twice in the past five years that I have known her.
> I think there's a difference betw "old friends" and "past lovers." He does not.
> And beyond that, this is exactly the kind of "vulnerable" lost-child type of woman who definitely brings out the "big brother/protector/hero" role in a guy. DH has given her money, I know that, when she's run short (i.e., is between romances).


I understand the difference between visiting a former sexual partner and visiting an old friend. The difference is if I do the former, I'll come home to find the locks changed on my house and all my stuff smoldering in the yard. That's not complicated.

I'm certain your husband understands the difference, too. If you maintained contact with a guy who's name you used to scream out in the middle of sex, your husband wouldn't like it. He certainly wouldn't be cool with you traveling out of state to visit the guy.


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## questar1 (Aug 4, 2011)

There was a time when I believed in the moral goodness of hanging on to old friends and I didn't bother to recognize extra boundaries from past lovers. Well, now I know better, but that awareness is apparently not universal. Maybe it's acquired from sad experience.
I get the impression that here on TAM there is a strong recommendation to be mindful of those boundaries and observant of these red flag moments. 
I don't doubt my intuition here for a minute. I know lots of dh's old friends and some of his exes and this one raises the hair on the back of my neck. The question is, What do you do. How do you not piss off your partner when you see that stuff going on? In this case I also point the finger at the OW, surely SHE is aware of these effects and consequences. She is cultivating this emotional bond with him, keeping it going and THAT is what is not appropriate, to pull that machinery. A genuinely mature, responsible ex would honor the marriage and the marital partner, not keep pretending everything is the way it always has been--or, seriously, why bother getting married, what's the meaning of marriage??? People act like it's just another long date or something! It's NOT!! It's a way of saying HANDS OFF, this is special, have some RESPECT. I feel disrespected by her, that's what my intuition is telling me, and the reason I make sure we leave the house when she needs an overnight free hotel stay is so that I don't smack her a good one to teach her a momma cat lesson to a stupid kitten who needs to learn something. 
There, i feel better, thanks for listening...! I have to quit pretending I'm not angry. I have to trust my anger, I think.


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## Davi (Apr 20, 2012)

I think, he should not go there, any btw whats the need to go there??? Don't he know that it can be hurdle between you two!


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## questar1 (Aug 4, 2011)

OK, so, he has agreed he/we won't go there for that occasion (birth). but the fact remains that he and the OW don't quite understand why it's not okay, they're just being nice about my little tantrum as they see it. The silly wife, putting a crimp in people's travel plans. 
Just a little coaching on how to save face here, anyone? 
My husband is storing it all in the category of "my wife doesn't like my old friends." 
Two weekends ago we stayed at the house of old friends who were "best friends" with the most recent ex. Which means what I say and do goes right back to her, as far as I know. She did NOT go lightly and remained an unhappy customer (she wanted desperately to marry him, he said he wasn't the marrying type, then he met me and a year later we got married, so some bitter feelings there). And he wonders why I am uncomfortable?
I am beginning to think he made a mistake getting married but I don't know what to do with that thought right now. Maybe just grow a thicker skin.
But I am afraid if I get a thick skin I won't be a nice person to be around any more.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

questar1 said:


> OK, so, he has agreed he/we won't go there for that occasion (birth). but the fact remains that he and the OW don't quite understand why it's not okay, they're just being nice about my little tantrum as they see it. The silly wife, putting a crimp in people's travel plans.
> *Just a little coaching on how to save face here, anyone?*
> My husband is storing it all in the category of "my wife doesn't like my old friends."
> Two weekends ago we stayed at the house of old friends who were "best friends" with the most recent ex. Which means what I say and do goes right back to her, as far as I know. She did NOT go lightly and remained an unhappy customer (she wanted desperately to marry him, he said he wasn't the marrying type, then he met me and a year later we got married, so some bitter feelings there). And he wonders why I am uncomfortable?
> ...


****And beyond that, this is exactly the kind of "vulnerable" lost-child type of woman who definitely brings out the "big brother/protector/hero" role in a guy. DH has given her money, I know that, when she's run short (i.e., is between romances).****

I would really like to explore this. It does seem as if men are moved to latch onto /help/ provide for those who appear vulnerable.

In an argument with my bf, I told him I couldn't understand how he felt comfortable offering taxi fare his "just a friend" at the same time that he couldn't even be bothered waiting at the bus stop until the right bus came for me (that I was paying for myself). He told me, you look so independent, I felt I didn't need to do more. But then why go all out for "just a friend." I don't get it.

I hope some of you men here might 'fess up about times when a "needy" woman started to appear attractive /seductive to you.

And when a self-sufficient woman did not stir up the same kinds of desires to assist her in the same way you would the other types.

Questar, what is your situation? Do you work? Do you provide for the household budget in equal measure? Do you treat your husband like a best (girl) friend, telling him every thought that enters your head? Or do you keep some (usually the girly) things to yourself? 

Do you and your husband socialise with friends "from your side?" If so --and I felt this in my failed marriage-- that friends from my side were not according to my husband as superior to friends from his side. For example, if we went out with friends from my side, my exH was happy to split the bill. IF we went with friends from his side, he would fight for the bill and pay in total. He did also do this at a time when we were both unemployed and they were not


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## SlowlyGettingWiser (Apr 7, 2012)

> Just a little coaching on how to save face here, anyone?


 No need to 'save face' as YOU are in the RIGHT! IF you believe this and understand the logic of your decision, then there is no face-saving....just a laborious, uphill battle to try to explain to your emotionally-enthralled husband that HE is being illogical. Don't bother trying to explain anything to drive-thru 'ho...she is WELL AWARE of what she is doing, and it apparently "works" for her!

Your *discussion* (no yelling, no emotional outbursts, just simple logic) should include the following points.

1.) I like your old friends, I simply do not like and do not TRUST Tracy. I feel Tracy does not show the proper respect and boundaries one should have for the sanctity of other people's marriages.

2.) Tracy wanted desperately to marry you, but you said you weren't the marrying type. Then you met me and a year later we got married. Tracy still has some bitter feelings about this and, in MY opinion, would love for you to dump me and marry her. *I trust YOU*, it is Tracy that I don't trust. She uses men for sex and for money.

3.) Hubby, you admitted that the "intense emotional affair" you and Tracy had was precipitated by the act of helping her to deliver (insert god-daughter's name here). As a rational person, why wouldn't I think that you helping to deliver this *new* baby *might* precipitate another "intense emotional affair"? Granted, YOU were unmarried at the time of (insert god-daughter's name here) birth, but Tracy was not. It didn't stop her from cheating on her spouse (apparently without compunction.) She would have even LESS compunction about an affair NOW because she is unmarried. But YOU are. If she didn't respect her OWN marriage, why would you assume that she will/does respect OURS?

4.) I have been nothing but kind, gracious, and accepting of ALL your old friends and exes. You would have to agree that I am not a jealous, hysterical woman. So the very fact that I am unwilling to accept Tracy in our lives should tell you something. And that 'something' is that Tracy is NOT good for our marital relationship. You may see her as a poor, helpless girl struggling to get through life the best she can. Maybe you still view her as the girl you helped 15 years ago. But she is not. She is a *grown woman*. A grown woman with (insert # of children here). She manipulates men in order to get what she wants (a cushy life paid for by a man?) and if that involves getting pregnant in a last-ditch effort to get them to marry her or pay her bills....more shame on her! And more pity for her poor children.

5.) The fact that *I*, your wife, did NOT want you to go should have immediately taken precedence over the mere wishes of Tracy. Your allegiance should be with me, just as your love has been. *I love you *and I know you love me. I do not want Tracy to be a part of our lives any more. All of your other friends are great in my book and I have no trouble, in fact I enjoy, socializing with them.

[Well, that is MY take on handling the situation. Good luck in getting hubby to 'hear' the message. I hope he surprises you with understanding!]


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Questar, it could be that your husband likes drama. He was in remission when he met you.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Jeff/BC said:


> I understand your viewpoint. Really I do.
> 
> My alternate viewpoint looks something like this. *My marriage is not a prison for Carol. *I am not the cops. I'm the guy who loves her.  If she wants to leave she is free to do so. Ideally she'd do it in a more honest way but failing that, any way at all works out fine.


Yes, I agree with you. I do not want "my" marriage (as you use that possessive pronoun) to be a prison for my partner. But I also don't want *to be held hostage* to his "rules" that he has not apprised me of.


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## questar1 (Aug 4, 2011)

NextTimeAround said:


> Yes, I agree with you. I do not want "my" marriage (as you use that possessive pronoun) to be a prison for my partner. But I also don't want *to be held hostage* to his "rules" that he has not apprised me of.


Holy bleep. Everything you say yanked my blood pressure off the charts. This is so on target it hurts. YES!!! You are brilliant and I'm in actual physical pain from this.
YES! I feel trapped by his "drama" with all the exes. This isn't the only one, duh, you could have predicted that. (It was a different one BTW who "desperately wanted to get married"--more on that in a sec.) 
He wants to carry on his little dramas with his "old friends," and I am a traveling companion accompanying him to the show. He wants nothing to change from the act of having gotten married. Everything is as it was.
So, to add to this: Five yrs ago, I refused to set a wedding date when I found out that (1) he was still occasionally seeing the more recent ex who was "desperate" to marry him and (2) he "couldn't tell her he was getting married because it would hurt her feelings because she had been sexually abused as a child." ????? (There's that Vulnerable Lost Child act again; different woman.) In fact I refused even to SPEAK to him. So he spoke to his best friend (a woman) who cut him a new one (she is wonderful--happily married, and absolutely no-nonsense) and he did the deed: He told the ex that he was getting married, she was cool with it (I think she was glad for the clean break at last, actually), and we got married.
OK, OK, people, I am seeing the pathology here. 
So: It's not just me and, NO (Jeff), I am NOT the one creating a "prison" of my marriage. 
I am the one whose instincts are ringing all kinds of alarm bells. I am seriously reconsidering marriage right now, okay the horse is out of the barn, but is it ever too late to tell the truth? Cuz I'm done with this s***.


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## questar1 (Aug 4, 2011)

SlowlyGettingWiser said:


> No need to 'save face' as YOU are in the RIGHT! IF you believe this and understand the logic of your decision, then there is no face-saving....just a laborious, uphill battle to try to explain to your emotionally-enthralled husband that HE is being illogical. Don't bother trying to explain anything to drive-thru 'ho...she is WELL AWARE of what she is doing, and it apparently "works" for her!
> 
> Your *discussion* (no yelling, no emotional outbursts, just simple logic) should include the following points.
> 
> ...


Pretty much this is what I have said (although #2 applies to a different ex) and hearing it from someone else made my head swirl. Thank you for letting me know I've been logical & decent. I am not crazy. I am not crazy. I am not crazy.
Thank you
I guess one sure sign of dealing with a deep irrational motive is that it makes you think you're the crazy one. Whatever he is doing comes from some old story or wound that I do not have access to or permission to deal with. I do not like feeling nutso in my relationship. It's lonely. He can't hear me,he is so busy protecting this old stuff.
But what you have written is practically word for word my script. Non-condemning, speaking for ME, non-accusing, but also not willing to discard what I believe to be true. 
And he blew up. 
Thanks again for the reality check.


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## SlowlyGettingWiser (Apr 7, 2012)

Well, if telling the truth causes him to 'blow up,' then apparently he prefers to live in denial. He's got a Savior Complex of some sort.


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## questar1 (Aug 4, 2011)

SlowlyGettingWiser said:


> Well, if telling the truth causes him to 'blow up,' then apparently he prefers to live in denial. He's got a Savior Complex of some sort.


YES!!! THat makes so much sense!
If he didn't answer these rescue calls, maybe he thinks, they wouldn't like him. 
To ask a married ex-lover to travel hundreds of miles to deliver your baby? That's nuts. Unless you know he has such a deep, insecure "hero" complex that you know you can ask him for anything. 
So then maybe my task as Da Wife is to shore up his self-confidence such that he doesn't need to rescue all of his old girlfriends. To allow him not to be the hero all the time. To be acceptable without fixing everything for everyone. To have friends who don't demand that he provide everything. You would not believe the leeches hanging onto him in all spheres of his life. His friends are like a big hole in the backyard that we throw money into, followed by a lighted match. 
He's an incredibly nice guy. The co-dependent ones usually are, I guess.
I could be in over my head on this one, I fear.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

To me jealousy is your emotional sense telling you that someone emotionally connected with you and that you should be able to trust is acting in selfish ways that make you doubt your trust in them.

Your husband has collected a set of broken shallow selfish women who live lives filled with drama caused by their stupid softish decisions. Oh and they put out on demand.

He fights for their feelings and needs and expects your feeling and needs to come second. Wonder why you feel jealous? It's not you feeling sonething you should be changing.instead it is a feeling he should be stepping up to by respecting it and listening to you.

He isn't listening or respecting. Oh, he's backed down on this one because it really was over the top, but he's still feeling entitked to keeping these exlovers actively in his emotional like, without regard to your feelings.

And that is just plain selfish of him.

The only thing you need to change is to stop bring so accepting of the low priority he assigns to your emotions.

He on the other hand needs to dump these other women and get his emotiosl focus on you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## profos (Apr 19, 2012)

questar1 said:


> The wife was pregnant (with her 4th child; 3rd baby daddy) and chose a home birth, which my husband accidentally ended up helping with. The experience moved him deeply. He told me it was the most deeply connected he had ever felt with another person.
> 
> Some time later, he and this young lady (22 yrs younger) commenced an intense sexual affair


I don't get the whole "delivering baby deeply moving experience that led to an intense sexual affair".

I mean, I'm no doc but if I pulled a baby's head out of a vagina, -especially some other dude's kid-, and dealt with the after birth fluids and blood and placenta the last thing to cross my mind would be putting my penis in there.

I don't get the attraction but maybe that's just me.


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

I agree with Shaggy on this one.


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

And profos...


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## questar1 (Aug 4, 2011)

The delivery was deeply emotional which forged a connection that they then followed up on later. Emotional bonds so often lead to a sexual connection. 
What I think I see now from what people have sd in earlier posts is that the birth experience brought out a fierce "protector" or rescuer reaction from my dh. And that is a huge turn-on for guys. Also this woman--I can say this having met her--capitalizes on that big time. She is very needy and, how do I describe this, simpering--she channels her inner Marilyn to great effect. Needs a big daddy. Note the age difference of 22 yrs.
Little by little I see these pieces come together to understand the whole picture. I am grateful for the collective wisdom coming through here, more than I can express. The first thing, and this is so important, is that I no longer feel evil and wrong-headed, having been called "jealous." I felt like there was something wrong with me and I was sick to my stomach and weepy. I think I'm better now and thank goodness for this site, which I feel represents probably about 100,000 years of marital lessons.
One thing I totally get now is that when we choose to get married we have to leave behind our exes or we cannot truly be married--that seems to be a difficult step for some people. It must be a kind of security blanket. 
I have explored related threads here and have consistently found the strongest advice to be: DUMP THE EX!! There is no room in a marriage for what has been. Having exes around is a bad omen.
I am picking my way forward very carefully because clearly my dh has a major problem with this and that is the question--what is going on internally for him making him cling to these exes even if they cause problems. I think finally I am putting the problem in the right place. More & more i think my instincts are perfectly normal and I'm certainly not hurting anybody over this but I now know that if he went there to see her for that purpose he would come home to an empty house.


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

Well.... if he finding the whole.. giving birth process attractive... Why hasn't he tried impregnating you? You are his wife after all so it would make more sense that he want to experience this emotional bond with his life partner rather then an ex lover.... Besides... it sounds more like a fetish then an emotional bond... If that were the case... many obgyns would have emotional bonds with their patients.... and as far as i know... none that I have met do... My husband witnessed my son being born, went through that experience, and honestly... he said he couldn't get the image out of his head for about a month after... and it in no way lead him to want to stick his dong in me for at least six months afterwards... lol. Soo.... like i said... it sounds more like a fetish then anything.


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## profos (Apr 19, 2012)

Gaia said:


> Well.... if he finding the whole.. giving birth process attractive... Why hasn't he tried impregnating you? You are his wife after all so it would make more sense that he want to experience this emotional bond with his life partner rather then an ex lover.... Besides... it sounds more like a fetish then an emotional bond... If that were the case... many obgyns would have emotional bonds with their patients.... and as far as i know... none that I have met do... My husband witnessed my son being born, went through that experience, and honestly... he said he couldn't get the image out of his head for about a month after... and it in no way lead him to want to stick his dong in me for at least six months afterwards... lol. Soo.... like i said... it sounds more like a fetish then anything.


I couldn't agree more.

Protector, rescuer my A$$.

Took me years to get the image of my exwifes episiotomy out of my head, along with her uterus inverted and flipped onto her belly while the OB Gyn zapped all the fibroids. I still smell them burning as they got vaporized.

He's got a placenta preference, that's my guess.


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## questar1 (Aug 4, 2011)

Oh, great, now I've got another twist to consider. I never thought of how this might relate as a fetish or whatever. I just don't want my dh, doctor or no, having anything to do with an ex-lover's down-under. And I don't think he needs another god-baby, which from what I can tell is an emotional hook to get someone else to pay for your kid's dance lessons.


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

Whatever you find out... I hope marriage counseling can help. It might not even be that... but who knows... You should suggest seeing a counselor to him.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

I've been a cop over 30 years. I've delivered a few babies and "rescued" probably thousands of women from domestic violence, vehicle crashes, fires, and other traumatic situations. These magical moments have never compelled me to rip their knickers off. It wouldn't be unusual at all for a trampy baby factory to hit on a guy. That's generally how they survive. I'm a little surprised that a man with even half a brain would enter into a relationship lasting longer than 30 minutes with such a woman. I'm not buying the rescuer/protector jazz, either. He hasn't shown any interest in protecting his own wife or rescuing her from anything. I think we've got a horndog who had a chance to nail a much younger woman and seized the opportunity. He's got piss-poor judgement, piss-poor morals, and an astonishing load of gall to expect he'd even still have a wife, let alone, one who would be cool with all of his shenanigans.


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## questar1 (Aug 4, 2011)

OK, so. We had it out.
Finally.
Last night.
It's still not easy to talk about. 
For the first time in my life, I really, really lost it. What started out as a brittle, uncomfortable conversation turned into a confrontation, but I wouldn't back down--the strength & conviction for which I thank everyone who posted here & told me I wasn't nuts and this just looked bad & no normal person would even think of going there. I held my ground.
I probably broke a lot of relationship rules although I tried to behave as decently as possible under the circumstances, which sucked. Totally ripe for embarrassment and being emotionally ripped open.
I don't exactly know how to describe what happened, so I will cut to the action. Which is where I suddenly began to scream and yell and hit the dh. I doubt that is recommended anywhere. Please do not report me. I do not do this as a regular practice. 
After a lot of intellectual back and forth and "shoulds" and "no you shouldn't have" and "who cares" and "it was a long time ago for chrissake" kind of talk, I realized: This guy still doesn't get it. 
In a heartbeat I turned and faced him, and said, in a suddenly clear, firm, no-nonsense, don't-mess-with-mama tone, "YOU DON'T GET IT. What you don't understand is that if I am ever within spitting distance of Tracy, I will want to hurt her! She is dangerous to me and I am dangerous to her!" Then I shoved him abruptly in the chest, and then "beat him about the head," as it sometimes says in books, and I began screaming, "She is the kind of woman no wife wants anywhere near her husband! You just don't get it! I will never, ever, ever let you near her! She will hurt both of us!" At this point, it seems, I kind of lost control--you know, you combine the verbal with the physical and then it's all adrenaline and the truth comes rushing out in gasps and thrashing around, and everyone gets scared the kids will hear something (although we were outside on our back deck) and wonders if it's time to call 911 or a lawyer. 
He grabbed my arms and wrestled me down, in a surprisingly nice kind of way, not to hurt me but calm me down, where I gave him a few more good thumps and then proceeded to bang various of my own body parts into some hard flooring surfaces. 
This development was shocking to both of us. 
Somehow I managed to get out a few more useful phrases of explanation such as "She is a THREAT to my marriage," and that sort of thing, and....
People! Listen! HE GOT IT!
Breakthrough moment. 
Why did it have to come to that, though? 
As soon as he heard the word "threat," his whole body language changed and he said, "Threatened? Why didn't you say so? I don't ever want you to feel that someone or something is threatening our being together." {smh--so true that "guys don't take hints"}
I just kept repeating, "She's the kind of woman who is dangerous and other women know it! I won't let you near her, I won't!"
Channeling Scarlett O'Hara? Gee, this stuff looks awful in black and white. I can only repeat: I have never done this before and (2) I told the truth, and it hurt really really bad to sound like the classic "jealous shrew." In a seething jealous rage. But there it was.
Then we stayed up all night and talked.
I mean, once you've hung out your deepest pain and shame like that for intimate viewing, what do you do? 
We stayed up, he stayed awake, and we talked till 3 AM. We have never done that before, either. Usually we just let things slide. 
I let him know that I actually liked Tracy personally--she just doesn't behave the way one should around married people; she ignores the fact that he's gotten married and they both just keep acting the same way as it's always been. Well, I said, things are different now--you, her ex-lover, are MARRIED now, and she acts as if you're NOT, and you let her! AND HE AGREED that having known her for a long time this was absolutely on target and he knew it and most people just kind of rolled with it once they got to know her but that undoubtedly it was troubling for me and with good reason, and probably it bugged other people too or she wouldn't have such a rocky relationship record, and, no, it really isn't okay to cave on these issues.
OK, now that I've confessed to one of the most painful episodes of my life, ever, the upshot of it is this: Marital Rule #1: If ex-lovers wish to contact us, they must do it through the OTHER SPOUSE. How do you like that?
I said that Tracy's mistake was to pretend I was just a piece of luggage and not the gateway to my husband's participation in her planned activity. I said, "If she truly understood marriage, she would know that she should come to me first and ask if it would be all right to ask if my husband could attend her birth." The way she did it was to "suggest" TO HIM that he be there, to which he responded, "Sure, I'd love to, let me see if da wife wants to come and do that too." I AM NOT LUGGAGE! I am not an afterthought! This rule applies to my exes as well. If they can't speak to my husband, they don't get through to me either. (Exception in the case of shared children, we both agreed.) 
It's a way of ensuring that the marriage is respected FIRST, not as an afterthought. Anyone who can't handle that is no longer welcome. It's a test.
But Tracy? She's permanently off the guest list, although the dh understands that I know she's an old friend and i have no say over friendships per se, not over shared memories and precious emotional bonds from the past--fine; hands-off other people's fond memories. But invitations? visits? 
She talks to ME. If I let her. (He said, "That will be awkward," and I cut him no slack. She calls me, not him, next time she wants to use our house as a free hotel. He agreed. Gulp. Cuz I may just not answer the phone that day.)
She doesn't get to re-create any emotional bonds or intimate moments, not with him at any rate, not while I'm around. He assured me repeatedly that being around me was his goal for a long, long time, i.e., till one of us drops dead hopefully of old age.
This forced truth-telling has been a watershed in our marriage and i don't think we will be the same from now on... In a good way, I hope. 
He really came through on this one but it's sad that I had to go off my rocker to get my point across. We both discovered something new: That I am a very passionate person and when push comes to shove I will have my say. 
Maybe for some people this kind of event would be the beginning of the end but for us, I can honestly say it feels like a new beginning.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Questar, I am not surprised about your latest step in your situation.

I wish in my (failed) marriage that I had been more emotional and less rational.


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

I'm glad it finally got through his thick skull how it effected you. Sad that it had to come to that but I hope things get better for you two!


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

This isn't a tough concept. If I have "a couple" of dollars, I have two dollars, not three or three and a half. When the preacher introduces the newly married "couple", he introduces two people, not a whole damned crowd. He's married, so he agreed to be half of a couple, not a member of some free-love hippie commune. You don't see a male robin sharing a nest with two adult female robins. If birds can figure this out, it shouldn't be too difficult for an adult human.


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## SlowlyGettingWiser (Apr 7, 2012)

Woo-hoo, questar1...you GO girl!

You did SO GREAT...and your marriage is all the better for it! Your post actually made me laugh out loud, you Scarlett O'Hara, you!

BTW: You KNOW when Tracy calls to use your house as a free hotel you can always say, "I'm sorry, that just won't work for us." You don't have to give her an excuse. By about the 3rd time, even a dumb-azz like Tracy should get the hint (no more of your skanky azz in our house.)


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

SlowlyGettingWiser said:


> Woo-hoo, questar1...you GO girl!
> 
> You did SO GREAT...and your marriage is all the better for it! Your post actually made me laugh out loud, you Scarlett O'Hara, you!
> 
> BTW: You KNOW when Tracy calls to use your house as a free hotel you can always say, "I'm sorry, that just won't work for us." You don't have to give her an excuse. By about the 3rd time, even a dumb-azz like Tracy should get the hint (no more of your skanky azz in our house.)



:iagree:


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## questar1 (Aug 4, 2011)

I think I was falling prey to the idea that it's just luck if you stay together & bad luck if things fall apart. 
My outburst of "passion" felt like I was pouring out all the fury from past betrayals, where I would just shrug my shoulders and say, "Well, I guess he wasn't the right one." I refused to fight, it wasn't cool, and heaven forbid I should keep my partner from hanging out with his "friends." Yeah--unethical female friends who saw an opportunity. One time, I caught a boyfriend with a friend of mine I'd been on the phone with a week before, confiding all kinds of things about our relationship. She moved in soon after. In another relationship, the ex kept calling--well, "she's just an old friend"--she always chatted w/ me about what an annoying person my boyfriend had always been. After we broke up, she moved across the country & moved in with him. Boy, what an idiot I was. All in the name of not getting upset, letting people choose for themselves, etc., etc.
Well, forget that! I've decided that it's perfectly reasonable to take a stand. I guess it could be called jealousy but I'm not going to let that stop me.... I think the word "jealous" means "possessive," and frankly it sure beats the alternative which amounts to pretending you just don't care. I found out I really do care and what's more my husband found that out too. 
The John Edwards trial is in the news now and my heart just aches for what he did to his wife. I KNOW how she felt. It killed her, on top of the cancer--the pain he caused was worse than the cancer. That awful "Real Hunter" who went after him and no one stood up to it even though they saw it happening. Shame on all of us for not speaking up, even if it seems like raw passion or angry "jealousy." I'm thinking, okay, I am not really going to kill anybody, but those feelings exist in me for a reason--to protect myself & my family & my emotional investment in this thing called "marriage." I think it totally sucks that society takes it so lightly. 
If you care for something you should be willing to fight for it and not be ashamed to do so. 
Here's another interesting little factoid. In the weeks leading up to this show-down, I had lost sexual interest in the dh & figured it was just a normal kind of slowing of interest after 4 yrs of marriage. Well, since that night, wow. Just wow. Who knew? I think that's worth taking note of. I think sexual interest might reflect some level of honesty or transparency between partners. If you're living a lie and are in pain, there's no energy left to feel turned on. It's like I was already pulling away from him in anticipation of a future betrayal.


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## questar1 (Aug 4, 2011)

unbelievable said:


> This isn't a tough concept. If I have "a couple" of dollars, I have two dollars, not three or three and a half. When the preacher introduces the newly married "couple", he introduces two people, not a whole damned crowd. He's married, so he agreed to be half of a couple, not a member of some free-love hippie commune. You don't see a male robin sharing a nest with two adult female robins. If birds can figure this out, it shouldn't be too difficult for an adult human.


When you put it like that--what could be more obvious???:rofl:


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

For many years, I suffered from the delusion that a "good" partner was the one who kept the peace, silently enduring real offenses, quick to apoligize and make nice, etc. It finally dawned on me that ignoring offenses was just as destructive as committing them. There are times when going bat crap crazy is the only appropriate response.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

unbelievable said:


> For many years, I suffered from the delusion that a "good" partner was the one who kept the peace, silently enduring real offenses, quick to apoligize and make nice, etc. It finally dawned on me that ignoring offenses was just as destructive as committing them. There are times when going bat crap crazy is the only appropriate response.


I agree with this. also, I would waste oh I don't know what --goodwill, political capital, warm fuzzies -- because I felt the need to explain to my (ex) husband how I felt, my thought processes and how this relates to that and so on so that he would not see me as someone who jumps to conclusions, who was overly emotional and quite frankly, it didn't do me any favors.........


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## questar1 (Aug 4, 2011)

SlowlyGettingWiser said:


> Woo-hoo, questar1...you GO girl!
> 
> You did SO GREAT...and your marriage is all the better for it! Your post actually made me laugh out loud, you Scarlett O'Hara, you!
> 
> BTW: You KNOW when Tracy calls to use your house as a free hotel you can always say, "I'm sorry, that just won't work for us." You don't have to give her an excuse. By about the 3rd time, even a dumb-azz like Tracy should get the hint (no more of your skanky azz in our house.)


Wow. That would take real guts. I am right now daring myself to take that stand & I'm wondering why I'm scared to do so. Once again I'm sure I will hear "we've done it this way for years" and I'm the newcomer. Wait, oh yeah, he married ME. And oh yeah, never in a million years would I have my ex- husband shack up at the house just because he happened to be in town and is a cheapskate. 
Maybe I'll offer to slip her a few bucks to stay in a hotel. (Although the last guy she was living with was very wealthy, so what's with that?)
Now her daughter (dh's god-daughter) on the other hand is a real sweetheart & has become friends w/ my daughter, same age, and I'd be glad to have her do a sleepover. I'm not really such a wicked witch!


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## mamap1 (Apr 29, 2012)

WTF you need to put your foot down i would tell him NO you can not go and if you do choose to go your picking her over me and I will leave you. I never let my husband hang around other girls there is no need for it.. ecspecially if he has had sex with her in the past... that is wrong. Would he let you hang out with a guy you had sex with? or attend a special event with that person.. i would also call that ***** up and tell her to back off and not talk to my husband.. Idk maybe i am just a very protective wife but my husband does the same with me.. it's just the way it should be.


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## questar1 (Aug 4, 2011)

mamap1 said:


> WTF you need to put your foot down i would tell him NO you can not go and if you do choose to go your picking her over me and I will leave you. I never let my husband hang around other girls there is no need for it.. ecspecially if he has had sex with her in the past... that is wrong. Would he let you hang out with a guy you had sex with? or attend a special event with that person.. i would also call that ***** up and tell her to back off and not talk to my husband.. Idk maybe i am just a very protective wife but my husband does the same with me.. it's just the way it should be.


What is it about an ex that you have had sex with? I totally agree that it matters. But he says he doesn't see what difference that makes. It was a very short affair and it was a long time ago and he says, So what. She's just a friend now. To me that makes a HUGE difference and in fact I was seeing a guy before we got married and even though we did NOT sleep together, I said goodbye to him--we had such an emotional closeness that I knew I might turn to him if my marriage ever hit a rough patch. If I had slept with him I can't imagine I would even exchange the few emails that I still do. But my dh does not think that matters. 
Having an ex-lover around is kind of like thinking of your spouse having an affair. I don't know why that is~


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Q,
My "viewpoint" regarding sexual behavior in a marriage is not universally popular here but it is one that I have put a lot of thought into. 

The sexual aspect of a marriage is incredibly powerful. It is rarely neutral and generally makes the relationship either a lot better or (if desire and preferences are badly mismatched) a lot worse. BOTH spouses are responsible for following the rule that (doctors) are taught from day 1. FIRST do no harm. 
1. The lower desire (LD) partner is responsible for making the effort to ensure their higher desire (HD) partner feels wanted and loved physicall/sexually. This isn't always easy. Demanding fidelity is one thing. Demanding near celibacy is cruel and generally toxic.
2. The HD partner is responsibel for not causing their LD partner to feel a high degree of sexual pressure/anger on any given night when the LD partner is clearly not wanting to have sex. Sometimes the most loving thing an HD partner can do is mask their desire. 
AND
3. The HD partner is responsible for not creating situations where their LD spouse feels exposed to competition from a sexual rival. 

In a sexually healthy marriage - it would NOT be ok for your H to do what he is doing. He explained his prior sequence with her:
- Helping with birth created powerful emotional bond
- Shortly thereafter emotional bond converted to an intense sexual relationship

This woman is clearly flirting with him AND she is attempting to recreate the path they tread once before. 

That said - you are playing with fire if you tell him:
- I have no desire for you AND
- You cannot go help this other woman have a child





questar1 said:


> The baby he helped deliver was appointed his god-daughter, but again, at this point the child doesn't even live with her mom, who is a dysfunctional mother. So she & my husband don't exactly have a child together but sometimes I feel as if he thinks they do.
> Here's the thing--this woman is vibrantly sexual without boundaries. When I'm around her I feel like a prudish old schoolteacher although I am happily sexual and have had my share of exciting romances. It's as if being around her makes me feel as though my light has gone out because she is so uninhibited about her own "light." I feel ugly and insignificant. (I am 11 yrs older than she is.) She is not physically very attractive, pretty ordinary, but all the guys kind of flock around her and she seems to encourage it. How the heck would my husband ever admit to that? He's a guy. So I feel like I should just laugh and say "that's the way she is" and let it go. But man, it just pushes all my buttons. She's just.... I dunno, a flirt? the first time we met I had an intense urge to say "get the hell out of my house and don't ever come back." I felt so threatened. What's wrong with me???


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## questar1 (Aug 4, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> Q,
> 
> In a sexually healthy marriage - it would NOT be ok for your H to do what he is doing. He explained his prior sequence with her:
> - Helping with birth created powerful emotional bond
> ...


Thank you for picking up on this... to me the lowering of sexual desire or my attraction to the H reflected my sense of alienation from him. But normally sex is the raison d'etre of our marriage. I always tell him, I married him for the sex. We are both "high desire." So, for me to lose interest in him is a serious matter that makes us both feel concerned. 

I am happy to report that now that we have worked thru much of this (post-explosion), our sex life is back on track. 

My feeling of connection with him is definitely a function of trust and openness, and as long as he was not heeding my concerns about this ridiculous idea of his, I felt a loss of that intimate connection and that was setting off my warning bells.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Q,
Some things are worth "exploding" about. At the 22 year point I can honestly say that my W and I go out of our way to treat each other well. As for this other woman - if I were you my view would be very simple:
- She and he had an intense sexual relationship
- The only basis for any continuity between them should/might be this god daughter thing. But the FOCUS should be on the child not between your H and the Mother
- Given their background SHE should be extra careful NOT to come across as flirty. This means at minimum - other than a quick hello/goodbye hug there is zero physical contact between them and she stays outside his personal space (18 inches in Western society)
- Since she clearly doesn't grasp any of that - he needs to keep any contact to a bare minimum and limit it to in YOUR presence. She will give up if she isn't getting traction.
- HE should recognize that she likely is financially stretched and that makes him an appealing type of boyfriend. I am not saying he isn't attractive. I am just describing her potential motives. 







questar1 said:


> Thank you for picking up on this... to me the lowering of sexual desire or my attraction to the H reflected my sense of alienation from him. But normally sex is the raison d'etre of our marriage. I always tell him, I married him for the sex. We are both "high desire." So, for me to lose interest in him is a serious matter that makes us both feel concerned.
> 
> I am happy to report that now that we have worked thru much of this (post-explosion), our sex life is back on track.
> 
> My feeling of connection with him is definitely a function of trust and openness, and as long as he was not heeding my concerns about this ridiculous idea of his, I felt a loss of that intimate connection and that was setting off my warning bells.


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## questar1 (Aug 4, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> Q,
> Some things are worth "exploding" about. At the 22 year point I can honestly say that my W and I go out of our way to treat each other well. As for this other woman - if I were you my view would be very simple:
> - She and he had an intense sexual relationship
> - The only basis for any continuity between them should/might be this god daughter thing. But the FOCUS should be on the child not between your H and the Mother
> ...


:iagree:
and I am proud of myself, looking back, for giving him the "pounding into the head" that he needed! 
I'm not a wimpy wife any more. And we both know it. 
You've stated the rules pretty much as I see 'em. I love the 18 inches bit. My dh being a math type--that will totally give him something to chew on. 
Any ex who opens the conversation by commenting on the quality of the pillows on the guy's bed is no friend of the marriage. That's all I need to know. 
She'll be lucky to get up to the 18-inch line.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Q,
And this is the partition - you have nailed it. Warmth and acceptance for the child. Ice and firm blocking of the other woman.....

But killer polite. Friendly tone. Just "that isn't going to work out for us". It is your Freakin home - you have final say. And keep away from any harsh comments about her. The bland statement "that isn't going to work out for us" prevents her from going to your H and whining. And you simply refuse to give any explanations (she will know full well why she is not welcome)...




questar1 said:


> Wow. That would take real guts. I am right now daring myself to take that stand & I'm wondering why I'm scared to do so. Once again I'm sure I will hear "we've done it this way for years" and I'm the newcomer. Wait, oh yeah, he married ME. And oh yeah, never in a million years would I have my ex- husband shack up at the house just because he happened to be in town and is a cheapskate.
> Maybe I'll offer to slip her a few bucks to stay in a hotel. (Although the last guy she was living with was very wealthy, so what's with that?)
> Now her daughter (dh's god-daughter) on the other hand is a real sweetheart & has become friends w/ my daughter, same age, and I'd be glad to have her do a sleepover. I'm not really such a wicked witch!


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## questar1 (Aug 4, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> Q,
> And this is the partition - you have nailed it. Warmth and acceptance for the child. Ice and firm blocking of the other woman.....
> 
> But killer polite. Friendly tone. Just "that isn't going to work out for us". It is your Freakin home - you have final say. And keep away from any harsh comments about her. The bland statement "that isn't going to work out for us" prevents her from going to your H and whining. And you simply refuse to give any explanations (she will know full well why she is not welcome)...


I see why this is right for me to do.
But I am really scared of doing it because every year, same time, she stays at his house and has done so for, oh, ten years? I say "his house" because we have 2 houses, mine and his, due to work commutes. Therefore, "his" house remains "his" house, and that is where she stays every year on schedule. For me to disrupt that happy pattern will lead to a confrontation. He has already let me know that he finds the idea of turning away a friend appalling and it has "nothing to do" with me, and we don't even need to be here. So this begins to reach into the realm of the unreasonable on my part. 
I have decided that we can negotiate this in MC next time we are there. That is likely the safest route. 
He seems to have a deep-seated fear of losing old friends (he stays in touch with literally hundreds of them), and it pains him to think of his wife alienating old friends. I can dig that. What he doesn't get is the precise nature of this particular friend. 
Yes, we definitely need a 3rd party to help us cut through these brambles! 
I like the idea of emphasizing my affection & welcome for the god-daughter. She and my daughter got along great & I love kids so that part was easy. But her mom is a bit of a tramp, okay, and far be it from me to say that to my kid or her kid. I'm not that mean. (I sometimes feel like I am, though, becz I get so upset.) I did finally reveal to my kid that her friend's mom had slept with my H, her stepdad, and she said, "Mom that is so creepy, she shouldn't stay at the house then." From a 14 year old's mouth, hey?


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## jarlinjack (Jun 11, 2012)

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## *needaunderstand* (Jun 11, 2012)

wow, you need to put your foot down. you are his number 1, not number 2. your feelings come first. and any guy will invite their woman with them, if they are truely interested in the individual that they wanna see. it opens that door back up, and its him letting her know he will always be there.


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