# Too many threads about low sex drive



## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

I don't mean to be insensitive, I just don't get it. Who are these men that don't like having sex with their wives?

Sometimes I want to take all the men in sexless marriages, and hook them up with the women who are married to low sex drive men. I'm just wondering what would happen after a few months.....

Is there any low sex drive men here? I just don't understand it. Was it something that was always true or did it get worse over time? Did something trigger it? I just can't imagine not having sex for months and then not being a total horn dog. Are you low sex drive because you service yourself too much, or is there really no urge to ejaculate?

I considered myself low sex drive before because I wouldn't complain if we didn't have sex for a week or two (even though I really wanted it). I know some of my married friends get down right angry if they don't get it every night. After being on the site for a few weeks, I'm starting to believe that I have a horny teenager's drive.


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## RDJ (Jun 8, 2011)

It seems to me that more often than not, for men and women both, that it does not come down to sex drive.

It comes down to "state of mind". High drive, low drive, emotional connection, no emotional connection makes a difference, but when both people have the right "state of mind" when it comes to their partner/marriage they can/will come to a mutually satisfying compromise in and out of the bedroom.

As we can all read here, there are a million things that can determine the "state of mind" we have at any given time.

When two people can learn not to allow their *changing* state of mind to determine their day to day happiness, they can find middle ground.

Hmmm! I think that made sense????


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

I hope you don't mind me responding. My husband had his T-levels tested and is on the low range of normal. We were not sexless but our sex life certainly became strained. I expressed to him that what was happening was a big issue for me (our disconnect) and how I felt. My hormones were also heading into overdrive as I have the 30's buzz going on.

I asked him questions about his drive to understand it more myself. I'd been naive about this. He was not self servicing, the urge was not there on a daily basis although there was no ED.

There was a psychological aspect going on too. This resulted in looking at our marriage beyond our sex life. We really had it all out on the table this year to deal with. Some were issues related to just him, some were to do with me. I had some resentment and hurt building because I couldn't understand how we had other factors so good in our marriage but this was lacking. This is how I wanted us to connect and we were falling short. I was unintentionally not fulfilling his emotional needs. He was unintentionally not fulfilling my/our sexual needs. It got to the point where going over the hurt and confusion was just not benefiting anyone. At some point, we made a conscious decision to just put our best foot forward. And we kept doing this day after day. There was no expectation of us staying together, we just kept working through everything, out of respect for the close bond we'd had. We deserved to have understanding for ourselves and each other. In doing this, and cooling things from my end sexually, we concentrated on the emotional health of our relationship and what was happening between us. And, guess what? Through doing this, through working on ourselves for ourselves, the flirtations came back, the passion began to return, and great sex as a result. 

This wasn't easy. The biggest thing was trying to overcome ego in those moments when emotions are raw. 

To add to the mix, we also had some huge life changes going on and I'd underestimated how much stress this had put on him. So you see, there was a variety of things happening - as well as him discovering he had a slightly low drive.

We came out stronger for all of this. I've said I'd like sex 3-5 times per week. He's said he'd be happy with 2-3 times per week. We have affection and loving non-sexual touch, this was never a problem. I re-discovered that he likes tease and subtlety. I'd become too obvious for him and this had only added pressure to the situation. Together we switched things up. I began mildly alluring him, he began pursuing me again. He's now letting his deviant side be expressed more. He's taking more control in the bedroom. I love this.

He's discovered that exercise (weights) seems to help his drive, as well as sleep. He seems to need more sleep than me. 

He initiates most of the time now and it's almost like the changes he's made alone as a man, have made him able to again be free with me, sexually. For him it was slightly physical and mostly emotional.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

RDJ - I didn't see your post when I posted. It would have been easier to have hit "I agree" 

I should add that, I'm now much more aware of his emotional needs. Things that might not be important to me, are indeed important to him. And our communication is improving too. If I've done (or not done) something, he speaks up about it. We also don't let something go unresolved anymore - no matter how minor it might seem.


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## allthegoodnamesaregone (Nov 18, 2011)

heartsbeating said:


> I hope you don't mind me responding. My husband had his T-levels tested and is on the low range of normal. We were not sexless but our sex life certainly became strained. I expressed to him that what was happening was a big issue for me (our disconnect) and how I felt. My hormones were also heading into overdrive as I have the 30's buzz going on.
> 
> I asked him questions about his drive to understand it more myself. I'd been naive about this. He was not self servicing, the urge was not there on a daily basis although there was no ED.
> 
> ...


There's lots of natural ways to boost a man's drive, exercise and diet being very important. Full body exercises such as squats and dead lifts that involve large muscle groups boost "T", as do foods like almonds, pumpkin seeds, steak and eggs. I suggest checking the book the "Four Hour Body" the author took his "T" level to the very high normal range doing the above.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

allthegoodnamesaregone said:


> There's lots of natural ways to boost a man's drive, exercise and diet being very important. Full body exercises such as squats and dead lifts that involve large muscle groups boost "T", as do foods like almonds, pumpkin seeds, steak and eggs. I suggest checking the book the "Four Hour Body" the author took his "T" level to the very high normal range doing the above.


Thanks for this suggestion!


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

HB,

I guess it is hard for me to understand because every guy I have ever known would gladly copulate with any woman as much as they would allow. It's so odd that there are women who have to pressure their husband's too have sex. I'm not trying to be insensitive, it is just hard for me to understand, and that it is so prevalent.

For me, and for the guys I know, sex can be emotionless. I could be totally pissed at my wife and have sex with her without blinking. It might not be as enjoyable, but I would still gladly do it. That's why I don't understand the emotional connection thing being a barrier to a man.

I can only imagine how frustrating that would be for a woman. As a guy, we kind of prepare ourselves for a life of sexlessness before marriage (I can't tell you how many times I heard about the penny jar). As a woman, you would probably have no inclination this is coming.

P.S. I always enjoy your posts but your avatar is a huge trigger for me! If I ever lash out at you, that's probably why


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

COguy said:


> HB,
> 
> I guess it is hard for me to understand because every guy I have ever known would gladly copulate with any woman as much as they would allow. It's so odd that there are women who have to pressure their husband's too have sex. I'm not trying to be insensitive, it is just hard for me to understand, and that it is so prevalent.
> 
> ...


Yes, this was extremely frustrating and upsetting for me to get my head around too, at first.

And while trying to understand, amidst our turmoil, I remember he said that he wanted me to stick around as he felt "the best was yet to come" but regardless, he still needed to work on these issues himself because he knew they would no doubt emerge again, if in another relationship. I felt the same for myself too. He explained the emotional connection with sex had to be there for him with me - there's an expectation. He wouldn't need an emotional connection if he was single and just having sex. With me as his wife, the two go hand in hand. There are more layers to this, I'm trying to keep it as simple as possible. It might resonate with some.

He has a younger brother (early-mid 20's). They both learned to 'shut down' with their mom growing up. I've seen hubs do it around her, I've seen my brother in-law do it, even from an early age with him. She is flippant in mood and hubs grew up with all sorts of guilt trips etc. and didn't have a father or male role model around to balance this. This has been part of his journey, to face that, to face her. He "manned up" to her in a big way this year and it made way for things in our relationship to change. He was using patterns developed in childhood, in our relationship, where they weren't warranted or needed. Interestingly, when he discovered certain things this year about us as a couple, and about himself - he shared some of this with his bro. Turns out, his bro has experienced similar with his girlfriends.

So .....*taking breath because it's a lot to convey* ...this behavior of 'shutting down' was (unknowingly to hubs at the time) still present but emerging in our sex life. We have been working hard to break these patterns. He has done a lot of self-reflection and growing - for HIMSELF. This helped both of us. Obviously I had a part in this too but yes, sexuality and emotions aren't as easy as just getting naked and busy for some. My husband was worth going through the journey with though. He's a sexy beast of a man.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

While there’s heterosexual and homosexual men who have sex drives, there is also asexual Asexuality - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia who doesn’t have a sex drive. I know about it because I think it describes my younger son. He is in his mid thirties, doesn’t appear to have sexual relationships at all and has never looked like even getting close to being married. My elder son is like me with a quite high drive so it’s difficult to understand.


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## FirstYearDown (Sep 15, 2011)

AFEH, do you and your son have a close relationship? I'm wondering if perhaps he just doesn't share the details of his sex life with you. Maybe he is just a private person? You know your son better than me; I was just pointing out a different possibility.

While my husband's sex drive is not low, (He is fine with three times a week.) it is lower than mine. I would love to have sex every single night, but hubby has difficulty ejaculating if he has sex too many times in a row. 

As a compromise, we make love four times a week and spend one weekend day a month doing nothing but being affectionate and having sex.


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

FirstYearDown said:


> and spend one weekend day a month doing nothing but being affectionate and having sex.


Like...48 hours? I'm envious......


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## FirstYearDown (Sep 15, 2011)

COguy said:


> Like...48 hours? I'm envious......


No, one weekend *day*, as in 24 hours. 
Of course, we take breaks for cuddling, eating and showers.


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

FirstYearDown said:


> No, one weekend *day*, as in 24 hours.
> Of course, we take breaks for cuddling, eating and showers.


Still envious! LOL... I'd be thrilled with a 2 hour stretch once a month. The hysterical bonding phase seems to be over, I'm missing the multiple hour sessions.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

I'll bite on this thread....My husband is the type of guy who would not sleep with anyone without an *emotional connection*, he has told me this many times.... he hardly chased women at all, only asking 2 out before me- he was looking for love & would choose his hand over something he didn't want to spend the rest of his life with. 

He is also not the aggressive type, His chest hair I compare to the needles on a Charley Brown Christmas tree, not much there....both of these could point to a "lower test" guy.
NORMAL, just a little lower than average -not the HIGH strung wired men who are like Beasts. His drive was high enough, he did tell me he masterbated up to 3 times a day before we married. After that, he felt that was my place. Unfortunetly I fell down on the job. 

Also he was never the type to fight over sex, show anger-though he was irritated with me, he tried to hide it back then, he wanted sex every day but didn't come after me, he felt I was rejecting him (and I did during our infertility spell)-this messed him up some , so half the time he waited for me to jump him -he always knew It was coming. 

He also is not the type who could have sex when angry or upset , this has no appeal to him -which I learned when MY drive sky rocketed in my early 40's (you just wait Heartsbeating!!) , I would fight with him thinking he didn't desire me- I wanted him to be more LUSTY, more aggressive, so I had to make up with him or I wasn't gettin' any!! So long as we resolved things, he was good to go! 

To be honest, I could have easily had angry sex during that spell, totally totally relate to men who just want to BANG! I was a raging Nympho during this time - it was a little scary as I realized , for the 1st time in my life, I wouldn't have cared about the Emotional connection, LUST was more important to me !! ON his end, his attitude was ..he is going to ride this out for as long as it lasts -finally he was getting all the attention he ever dreamed of , But he couldn't keep up ! 

So what did I do... I sent him to the Encron to get his Test checked! This is rather :rofl: looking back. We had to downplay why we were REALLY there , learned his levels were on the lower end of Normal -she scared the daylights out of me saying his #'s were normal for a man in his 60's! He was just 45. I worreid about that da** comment for months, thinking I am doomed, he is an old man now, all washed up and I missed his best years -out of stupidity. 

So I took to reading, research, buying TEST books, and learned that SOME MEN just have lower Test most of their lives and those #'s work fine for them, I believe my husband falls into this category, cause he is able to have sex once a day - at his age without erection helpers (he just turned 48) -anything more than that is pushing it though! Mornings are best. 

The emotional connection is what drives him ...He has told me....Sex is never just "sex" to him --it is "making love". 

For these types of men, if something is OFF in the relationship.... feeling rejected, unresolved anger, resentment, etc .... it would just blow the whole house down sexually. ... Kinda like Heartsbeatings husband, he needed more.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

SimplyAmorous said:


> He also is not the type who could have sex when angry or upset , this has no appeal to him -which I learned when MY drive sky rocketed in my early 40's (you just wait Heartsbeating!!) , I would fight with him thinking he didn't desire me- I wanted him to be more LUSTY, more aggressive...


Oh great!! ...well I hope this forum is still around in 5 years then 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

michzz said:


> Or your younger son is really good about not involving you in his romantic life.


I’ve only ever actually seen him with a girlfriend just the once. My thoughts go to the possibility that he’s homosexual and maybe doesn’t want to open up about it, I do worry about him or I used to anyway. He has many friends both male and female but I think he’s reserved his heart for his mother. I’m pretty certain he still has the Oedipus complex young lads get but grow through and move on to their own women. My younger son never did that and now he is living with his mother at the age of 36. So basically he has got what he wanted and I was more or less powerless to help him or do anything about it. I’ve had those masculine urges to thump him as a man because it was though he and my wife were having an EA for many years. It’s an exceptionally conflicting position to be in as a husband and a father. Still I have turned my back on them both now and I feel better for it as there’s no more trying and they’re kind of welcome to one another. They’ve made their bed and are no longer welcome in mine and they will not get any help or support from me.




But I posted here about asexuality because it may help others who are not having the sex life they want within their marriage.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

heartsbeating said:


> Oh great!! ...well I hope this forum is still around in 5 years then


Accually I likely could have been like you & this happened earlier for me ... one of our hinderencs was -I wasn't on birth control, he wasn't crazy about rubbers, it seemed every attempt at conception was a "positive", so I "feared" doing it anywhere near that time frame during my 30's, I bet this supressed my sex drive some....I can only speculate. 

I remember feeling this awesome sense of "FREEDOM" wash over me the day I got my IUD in ....and shorty after ...WOW , I took it a little overboard.


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## FirstYearDown (Sep 15, 2011)

AFEH said:


> I’ve only ever actually seen him with a girlfriend just the once.Just because you do not see somethiing, doesn't mean it is not there. My thoughts go to the possibility that he’s homosexual and maybe doesn’t want to open up about it, I do worry about him or I used to anyway. He has many friends both male and female but I think he’s reserved his heart for his mother. I’m pretty certain he still has the Oedipus complex young lads get but grow through and move on to their own women. My younger son never did that and now he is living with his mother at the age of 36.Living with his mother at that age is unhealthy.  So basically he has got what he wanted and I was more or less powerless to help him or do anything about it. I’ve had those masculine urges to thump him as a man because it was though he and my wife were having an EA for many years.If your son senses your jealousy of the relationship he has with his mother, I am not surprised that he doesn't share things with you. My mother always resented the closeness I had with my father, even going so far as to say that we acted like a couple....ewwwww! All it did was make her look like a jealous five year old. I am sorry that you begrudge your own son's relationship with his mother. It’s an exceptionally conflicting position to be in as a husband and a father. Still I have turned my back on them both now and I feel better for it as there’s no more trying and they’re kind of welcome to one another. They’ve made their bed and are no longer welcome in mine and they will not get any help or support from me.So you left your wife because she was too close to your son?? Not sure I am understanding this correctly. In fact, I hope I am wrong. It just seems rather immature, unless there was some actual incest.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

FirstYearDown, you are waaay off base, never mind.


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## Soccerfan73 (Jul 30, 2011)

michzz said:


> This indicates even more so what my comment was about. He's not asexual, just doesn't involve you in his love life.
> 
> Living with a parent is really common now in this bad economy too.


:iagree:

There are some of us who don't tell our parents of what we do in the bedroom. 

I've had girlfriends I never introduced to my parents.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

michzz said:


> This indicates even more so what my comment was about. He's not asexual, just doesn't involve you in his love life.
> 
> Living with a parent is really common now in this bad economy too.


It is truly amazing how you think you know a man who you don’t know from Adam better than I as his father who helped with his birth and has known him for the past 36 years does. It truly is amazing.


That sex drive can do so much more in a man’s life other than get him sex. It is that sex drive that drives him to buy a house to make into a home for his family. It is that sex drive wrt his wife that keeps him thinking and planning long term for the very security of the family he has created.

I have two sons and they are opposites. My elder son has two homes, renting one out for his unearned income. And yet he has been married and divorced. And he is in a stable five year relationship and still he is building and accruing things around him.

My younger son ever since he left home has lived in rooms, sometimes very squalid rooms. He has never put the effort in, preferring to drink and take drugs rather than build and acquire. Yet all he does is criticise my work rate, my way of life to my wife. As his father I knew where he was headed, it was all so very predictable. He has trod the path his mother’s younger brother trod because of his relationship with his mother. It is a family pattern repeating itself. But unlike my father in law I was not prepared to tolerate it and I cut them loose.

Unfortunately I know when my younger son is looking 40 years in the face he is going to go through a massive depression and may well become suicidal because he has nothing. He has done nothing with his life. I so want to help him but every time I’ve tried it gets kicked back in my face so I gave up in order to maintain my own comfort and my own health.

Sex drive is not just about how often you have sex. It is very much more about what you create all around you, it is about what grows outwards from it.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Soccerfan73 said:


> :iagree:
> 
> There are some of us who don't tell our parents of what we do in the bedroom.
> 
> I've had girlfriends I never introduced to my parents.


Why on earth would a man even contemplate telling his parents about his sex life? Crazy.


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

AFEH,

Your sons remind me of my husband's cousins. 

This uncle has three sons, two of them are hard workers, one of them is very lazy. He lives at home and mooches off his parents. He is 30 years old, and he still depends on his mother for everything. He asks his mother for her opinion for whatever he does, he lets her make decisions for her. He is a mama' boy. He has never had any serious relationship with any women. He says he doesn't want to get married, I think he just doesn't want to take the responsibility of having a family. 

My mother-in-law told me that the mother is a very controlling woman. She doesn't want her sons to be independent. It's good that the oldest son is married now and his wife is helping him breaking away from his mom, these two women don't get along. 

In my opinion, men who can't be independent from their parents were usually spoiled by their parents when they were young. A controlling mother tends to have dependent sons. 

From what I know, this aunt is eating her bitter fruit now. Her sons are either single or the daughters-in-law can't get along with her. They turn her sons against her.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Hi GP, my wife isn’t controlling in the domineering way it’s normally spoken about. She is though exceptionally manipulative and a master of controlling emotions in that way. She never could cut the apron strings with our youngest so she has him tied up and has him emotionally and financially dependent on her. My one major goal for the two of our sons was that they’d be independent from us by the time they reached 18 years old. My elder son managed it, working his way through university, paying off his education loan within a few years, buying his first home all by himself without any help. He needed financial help on just two occasions and paid it back just like things should be. My elder is financially and emotionally dependent from the two of us and he keeps it that way no matter how hard and what his mother tries on him.

My mother’s mother was the same as my wife. It’s pretty horrible to witness (I got to recognise it, I was blind before) a wife’s manipulation of a man’s son against him. And likewise a son’s manipulation of his mother against his father. I see it now as wicked going on evil stuff.

I don’t think it ever would have happened if my younger son had a sex drive like mine. Because if he had he would have been just like me and just like his elder brother, far too busy with his own life and his own family to constantly put the boot into his parent’s marriage.


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## FirstYearDown (Sep 15, 2011)

AFEH said:


> It is truly amazing how you think you know a man who you don’t know from Adam better than I as his father who helped with his birth and has known him for the past 36 years does. It truly is amazing.Hey, I was asking questions and seeking clarification. I mentioned that you know him best.
> 
> 
> That sex drive can do so much more in a man’s life other than get him sex. It is that sex drive that drives him to buy a house to make into a home for his family. It is that sex drive wrt his wife that keeps him thinking and planning long term for the very security of the family he has created.Did you ever think that houses are much harder to buy than they were back when you did?  Look at the recession, as well as the high cost of real estate in most major cities. Real estate is overvalued by 25% where I live. Not having a home doesn't make a man less responsible.
> ...


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## toolate (Sep 22, 2009)

For some men its not about not liking sex. My husband loves sex, and he is very very good at it However, he despises feeling controlled, and often perceives our potential sexual encounters as losing control so he takes back control by avoiding and refusing. 

Im learning more about this every day. This may have been why he doesnt like it when I come on to him OVERTLY, but loved what I did yesterday... covertly just went to him in bra and undies and loose sweater hanging open and just made chit chat... that way, even though I planted the seed, HE took control in being sexual. He is obviously STILL thinking about it bc he just emailed me about how hot it was!

It really hit me last night when I was thinking about what each of our triggers seem to be and why. What he gets upset at is loss of control, perceived mostly, so its a fear of losing control in any situation. I have learned through family a few situations that would explain how he developed this fear. I also know that its not my responsibility to help him get over it bc I feel badly he had to go through such negative events... tried that with my last husband and it got us and me nowhere but needing to get away from his anger. 

Back to my current husband... he was watching porn all the while not having sex with me bc what was I doing... demanding it, pleading, begging for him to be with me like he used to before we got married. He told me he liked it bc he wasnt being asked to do anything, there was no pressure and no talking.

So, sometimes its not a difference in drive but an underlying issue)... although with my husband getting older some wise men on this board have pointed out he may in fact just be slowing down, not less interested. I have learned alot here... and thought I would try to add another spin on this situation that is hard for many men to comprehend (and us high drive women as well).


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Men don't want sex from their wives for only 4 reasons: Low t-count, porn, cheating or passive aggressive behavior. Period.

Not sure why this thread turned in to questioning AFEH (Bob's) parenting. I don't know Bob, never met him and only have what he has posted here to go off of. I would not question another parent and their ability to raise a child just off of the information put forth on a forum. We all do our best and kids turn out the way they do. In my own case I have two sons who are 5 years apart. The eldest is brilliant on paper. Graduated top of his class and is attending a baby Ivy university. Smartest man I know and that's saying a lot given that my husband (his father) is literally a Mensa member. My oldest however lacks common sense. He does some of the dumbest things I have ever seen and it shocks me that somebody so smart can have such a lapse in judgement. My youngest struggles in school. It is a constant battle to help him with his grades yet he has more common sense than anybody I have ever known. Street smart is what I would call it but at a level unimaginable. I worry about our oldest all the time. I don't worry about our youngest. I think that is what Bob was getting at.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

michzz said:


> You're reframing your comments because people point out that a lot of us don't consult daddy about our love life.
> 
> Your annoyance with ex is intruding.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Goodness. You are the one with that reframing focus and you are projecting your situation onto me.

My younger son was at home full time until he was 25. From the age of 19 after his foundation course he never went out, never worked and he stayed in his room or watched tv and was never up before nine in the morning. I know full well what his sex life was at what should have been the peek of his drive. Plus both his elder brother and I are very concerned about him and we talk a bit about it all.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

FirstYearDown wrt your brother a man’s 40s are an extremely critical time of their life. It’s when they do the Big Assessment. When they look back and see what they’ve done (or haven’t done), take stock of what they have now and look into the future as far as they can. Sometimes they can see that they can’t ever have what they’ve always wanted, what they’ve always dreamed of because it is too late. Much like a woman past her menopause and can’t have her own child.


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## agentem (Oct 13, 2011)

My mother in law thinks that her son is asexual, but he's pretty obviously gay to an outside observer. 

But yeah, I've got the low drive wife, and there are many days when I'd gladly trade her for some of these desperate women on here. Oh what I'd do for a woman who didn't slap me away at my advances.


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## Havesomethingtosay (Nov 1, 2011)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> *Men don't want sex from their wives for only 4 reasons: Low t-count, porn, cheating or passive aggressive behavior. Period.*


Forgot the most probable reason..... He's GAY (don't mean to offend anyone).....

Also some of you on TAM are freaks..... I mean thinking anything less then 2-3X's/wk is sexless..... I know we have a small subsection posting here, who all profess to the daily+ routine, or at least wanting that..... 

By your definition, I am surely sexless and need T-shots and significant couseling.....


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

michzz said:


> This indicates even more so what my comment was about. He's not asexual, just doesn't involve you in his love life.
> 
> *Living with a parent is really common now in this bad economy too.*


Believe me. When the going gets tough the tough get going and they do make things happen. They make their life the way they want it to be. That's what it's all about.


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## agentem (Oct 13, 2011)

> Believe me. When the going gets tough the tough get going and they do make things happen. They make their life the way they want it to be. That's what it's all about.


I'm reading "Men and Marriage" right now by George Gildan. Great read that discusses this very topic. You might want to pass it along to him.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Men don't want sex from their wives for only 4 reasons: Low t-count, porn, cheating or passive aggressive behavior. Period.
> 
> Not sure why this thread turned in to questioning AFEH (Bob's) parenting. I don't know Bob, never met him and only have what he has posted here to go off of. I would not question another parent and their ability to raise a child just off of the information put forth on a forum. We all do our best and kids turn out the way they do. In my own case I have two sons who are 5 years apart. The eldest is brilliant on paper. Graduated top of his class and is attending a baby Ivy university. Smartest man I know and that's saying a lot given that my husband (his father) is literally a Mensa member. My oldest however lacks common sense. He does some of the dumbest things I have ever seen and it shocks me that somebody so smart can have such a lapse in judgement. My youngest struggles in school. It is a constant battle to help him with his grades yet he has more common sense than anybody I have ever known. Street smart is what I would call it but at a level unimaginable. I worry about our oldest all the time. I don't worry about our youngest. I think that is what Bob was getting at.


Well that’s very nice to get your support TRBE, thank you a Merry Christmas and fab 2012 but things may change in the future lol.


Yes there are many reasons for sexual dissatisfaction in a marriage but asexual hasn’t I think been mentioned before on TAM. I reckon SA is already researching it such is her caring way and need for knowledge.

Urban Dictionary: asexual
Asexual Visibility and Education Network
First Person: 'We're married, we just don't have sex' | Life and style | The Guardian
No sex please, we're asexual | Science | The Guardian
Love from the Asexual Underground

Apparently it affects about 1% of the population Study: One in 100 adults asexual - CNN.

For those that aren’t getting the sex they need let alone the sex they want, asexuality may well be what the situation is.

I think I was the opposite of an asexual, maybe too much the other way. But it was exceedingly enjoyable and I’ve been truly blessed with my sex life.


Don't you mothers just know your sons so well. Its great.


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

I can relate to heartsbeating situation and her husband.

My husband has always, always projected that macho, I'm made of steel exterior and nothing, absolutely nothing bothers me.

As he is opening up more and we are bonding more (only took 27 years of marriage!!), I'm discovering that at his core he is a LOT more sensitive than me and takes things to heart even though outwardly he shows that he couldn't care less.

This revelation has been quite an eye opener and has made me take a step back and realize that the things I say do "hurt" him, he would just never admit it outright.

So I take more care in how I say things and what I say during an argument.

He also is a man that cannot have sex after a fight or disagreement. I asked him a few months back why he wasn't more interested in sex and he said he didn't know, he just didn't feel "close to me" and wasn't interested in being intimate with me.

So I believe he needs an emotional connection (at least with me). I backed off, took sex off the table as a #1 issue for me and things have really changed. We've become more open/close, spend more time together and just generally enjoy being around each other. And our sex life is working itself out too.

Some men aren't just horn dogs as we've been led to believe....what a revelation! HA


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> I can relate to heartsbeating situation and her husband.
> 
> My husband has always, always projected that macho, I'm made of steel exterior and nothing, absolutely nothing bothers me.
> 
> ...


Your H feels safe with you. No greater gift can you give him. It's known as soul mates and as things should be.


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## Soccerfan73 (Jul 30, 2011)

People are human and things get in the way to being perfect. Sometimes diseases lower testosterone levels. Sometimes nagging spouses do (either gender!). Sometimes job related issues interfere as well. 

Personally, I'm a high drive person. But I don't question how it can be a problem for many. When my blood sugar level was high before I was diagnosed with Diabetes my sex drive was completely shot. Thankfully that rebounded.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

AFEH said:


> Yes there are many reasons for sexual dissatisfaction in a marriage but asexual hasn’t I think been mentioned before on TAM. I reckon SA is already researching it such is her caring way and need for knowledge.


Ha ha , I had to laugh at this, I am assuming you are thinking I am thinking about my oldest. I pretty much know he is not gay or asexual -simply because he struggles with porn too much & hates himself for it , he's even put blockers on his computer to stop himself ....(yes my christian son & me are very open with each other -after all he is a Psyche major & a wanna be Youth Paster ..... we talk about every da** issue under the sun, debate, dissect, he is a chip off the old block!)

As for sex , he has nothing to talk about anyway! -cause he is determined to wait till marraige, wears his silver ring proudy -those are his beliefs ! To him, sex is totally sacred. 

If not, heck yeah, I am sure he wouldn't be saying anything to me! 

It is funny, one time the Rapture came up (He doesn't believe in this concept anyway) but made a point to say he'd be ticked if that happened before he had sex! 

I asked him one night if he wanted to come to the Strip Club with us, that was an interesting conversation...he admitted that was one place the temptation would drive him crazy, it wouldn't be good. Being around Drinkers , smokers, partiers wouldn't affect him in the least, but near naked women up close & personal, Oh yeah!

He is just like his dad, he doesn't chase women unless he has some flame under him for her- only tried to get 2 so far. Hopefully #3 will be the charm . But they are always following him around, he is just very choosy. l will probably act like I am going to faint when he finally brings home a woman-that is on his arm. I am used to him bringing home many women "friends". 

He is very goal oriented, involved in many things, even volunteering , not a Mama's boy, I wouldn't want that at all. I know how unhealthy that is. No apron strings here. On my way home today from running errands , a song I used for his Gradulation party came on, I started to cry listening -knowing that part of our lives is over- forever. Great memories raising him.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

Havesomethingtosay said:


> Also some of you on TAM are freaks..... I mean thinking anything less then 2-3X's/wk is sexless..... I know we have a small subsection posting here, who all profess to the daily+ routine, or at least wanting that.....
> 
> By your definition, I am surely sexless and need T-shots and significant couseling.....


I take it you're referring to my comment because I mentioned frequency? If so, this has been misunderstood.

I meant our sex life was strained (never sexless) and we worked through a bunch of stuff and reached a better place. Then we talked about how often we'd both like, when we were at the point of good-vibe-intimacy again. Touch is important to both of us. The reason I mentioned frequency was to show we are actually very close in our needs after all. It was mainly the emotional we had to deal with first.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> I can relate to heartsbeating situation and her husband.
> 
> My husband has always, always projected that macho, I'm made of steel exterior and nothing, absolutely nothing bothers me.
> 
> ...


It was an eye-opener for me too. We had a lot of stress going on, and because he takes it in his stride, I'd underestimated how this effected him.

While I don't say hurtful things to him, I'd be hurting him in ways I was completely oblivious to - through my actions or inactions. It could seem simple and unimportant to me but unknowingly spoke volumes to him about how much I care. Some of this relates to his own issues and some of it was me and I'm aware now. He is speaking up if something is bothering him (and this isn't a constant thing, it's just randomly). I'd never thought our communication was lacking, this has been a good thing for us.

Going through this together, he now first RECOGNIZES when these things happen. And then he EXPRESSES about it so I have the chance to address it; for us to address it together. Instead of him internalizing and then 'shutting down' (passive aggressive) when we're wanting to be intimate. This wasn't even something he was consciously doing - but that disconnect was there. He also recognizes that just because I haven't done "X Y Z" doesn't reflect that I don't love him. Some of this stems from his past. I hope this is making sense?

Things are very different between us now. We are definitely stronger and our communication, consideration and awareness of ourselves and each other has improved immensely. But we didn't even realize these patterns were happening. The sex life was just a signal to the bigger picture. 



MarriedWifeInLove said:


> So I believe he needs an emotional connection (at least with me). I backed off, took sex off the table as a #1 issue for me and things have really changed. We've become more open/close, spend more time together and just generally enjoy being around each other. And our sex life is working itself out too.
> 
> Some men aren't just horn dogs as we've been led to believe....what a revelation! HA


When I backed off and cooled it, and allowed myself to be present with the other issues/emotions going on, it allowed us the space we needed to see things for what they were without being stretched in that other direction.

He is again initiating and any walls that seemed to be emerging seem well and truly broken down. Sex is now a priority for him again. His perspective and behavior seems to be changing with a few aspects in his life. And of course, there are changes within me for going through this too. Our sex life has done a 180 as a natural result.

We're all flawed human beings, so it's a continual work of art.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

SimplyAmorous said:


> The emotional connection is what drives him ...He has told me....Sex is never just "sex" to him --it is "making love".
> 
> For these types of men, if something is OFF in the relationship.... feeling rejected, unresolved anger, resentment, etc .... it would just blow the whole house down sexually. ... Kinda like Heartsbeatings husband, he needed more.


For my H, it can be raw sex - but he still needs that emotional connection first.

I agree with you, our husbands would be alike in this way of needing that connection. It's funny, because I can never relate to the wives that post "he makes me feel like a sex object". I don't think it could ever happen because that emotional connection has to be there.

And of course, the irony is that I believe my high drive (while partially physical), is mostly because my husband DOES meet my emotional needs and I desire him so much as a result. Maybe I'll now be prepared for what could occur when I hit my 40's


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

heartsbeating said:


> I agree with you, our husbands would be alike in this way of needing that connection. It's funny, because I can never relate to the wives that post "he makes me feel like a sex object".


I say a Hearty ME TOO to that, I have never had a second of such a thought !


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## waiwera (Sep 8, 2009)

Ok... I'm a tree hugging, yoghurt making, organic food eating type of person so my thoughts on this may not resonate with some folk...but here goes.

I'm at that peri-menopausal stage in life and am oestrogen (the girly hormone) dominant. I've spent many hours reading up on the subject and have found that everything from your shampoo to your moisturiser to your canned food and dairy products have chemicals/substances in them that are hormone disruptors. They mimic oestrogen, traces of the chemicals are commonly found in folk urine...so they ARE penetrating the skin and entering the bloodstream..finally showing up in your pee. In women this gives you PMS symptoms from hell... can you imagine what they do to men???
They lower sex drive, encourage 'moobs' to develop, enourage weight gain...many symptoms are described. I think the effects would more pronounced in a man with already low Testosterone levels. 
I really believe so many health issues today are caused by the chemical ****tails we bombard our bodies with daily (the average woman will put approx 200 different chemicals onto her body every day...the mind boggles doesn't it?) that seem so harmless and smell so nice! One thing I found...ya know that 'Herbal Essence' shampoo...if you read the ingredients theres not one herb in there. Just lots of chemicals with long names and numbers.

Just my 2 cents worth.


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## FirstYearDown (Sep 15, 2011)

AFEH said:


> FirstYearDown wrt your brother a man’s 40s are an extremely critical time of their life. It’s when they do the Big Assessment. When they look back and see what they’ve done (or haven’t done), take stock of what they have now and look into the future as far as they can. Sometimes they can see that they can’t ever have what they’ve always wanted, what they’ve always dreamed of because it is too late. Much like a woman past her menopause and can’t have her own child.


My brother is talking about dating women my age now. He never would have considered a 12 year difference before; he just needs someone young enough to get pregnant quickly. Also, he doesn't want children when he is too old to play with them. Poor guy.  The women closer to his age hear "lawyer" and they start demanding 10K engagement rings and luxury trips. To make matters worse, most of them are useless around the house. They are just Barbie dolls that are too good to do any chores. I am so glad that therapy is teaching him to break away from my mother. 

Some women do not ever want children; we are fullfilled in other ways besides motherhood. We use our extra time devote to our spouses, friends and perhaps pets or other people's beloved kids. I am surprised that you think _all _women become depressed when they are elderly, if they cannot have children. Maybe this has been your experience?


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

michzz said:


> So if your son was home full time and you were not present 24/7, is it remotely possible that he found a way to socialize without you finding out?
> 
> It's not projecting to know its possible to excuse daddy from knowing what's going on.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:sleeping:


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

FirstYearDown said:


> My brother is talking about dating women my age now. He never would have considered a 12 year difference before; he just needs someone young enough to get pregnant quickly. Also, he doesn't want children when he is too old to play with them. Poor guy.  The women closer to his age hear "lawyer" and they start demanding 10K engagement rings and luxury trips. To make matters worse, most of them are useless around the house. They are just Barbie dolls that are too good to do any chores. I am so glad that therapy is teaching him to break away from my mother.
> 
> Some women do not ever want children; we are fullfilled in other ways besides motherhood. We use our extra time devote to our spouses, friends and perhaps pets or other people's beloved kids. I am surprised that you think _all _women become depressed when they are elderly, if they cannot have children. Maybe this has been your experience?


You might want to stop putting words into my mouth. I never said all women. You read all women because of your particular opinions and situation about having children.


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## Soccerfan73 (Jul 30, 2011)

michzz said:


> Nice platitude, but not a universal truth.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree:


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

waiwera said:


> Ok... I'm a tree hugging, yoghurt making, organic food eating type of person so my thoughts on this may not resonate with some folk...but here goes.
> 
> I'm at that peri-menopausal stage in life and am oestrogen (the girly hormone) dominant. I've spent many hours reading up on the subject and have found that everything from your shampoo to your moisturiser to your canned food and dairy products have chemicals/substances in them that are hormone disruptors. They mimic oestrogen, traces of the chemicals are commonly found in folk urine...so they ARE penetrating the skin and entering the bloodstream..finally showing up in your pee. In women this gives you PMS symptoms from hell... can you imagine what they do to men???
> They lower sex drive, encourage 'moobs' to develop, enourage weight gain...many symptoms are described. I think the effects would more pronounced in a man with already low Testosterone levels.
> ...


You are absolutely right. Plus so little is known about how hormones interact with one another. Researchers even find that their investigations are tainted because oestrogen for example is used in the manufacture of test tubes and skews their results!

Not only are we taking in harmful hormones via our food etc., the essential vitamins and minerals needed for their production are missing from our daily food intake so we’re getting a double whammy. For example too much oestrogen and not enough minerals etc. for testosterone production.

It is one heck of a lot to do with the food we eat, or don’t eat. How many people for example eat food like pumpkin seeds let alone think they actually aid in testosterone production?


Men with low T would be far better off seeing a naturopath or nutritionist than they would their doctor or urologist. The former ask you to fill out a massive questionnaire before they actually see you. Some 200 questions or so to get a complete picture of your lifestyle and complaints. And then they see you for an hour, not the 10 minutes of a doc, and put you through analysis as required. The “medication” will be a change in life style along with diet and it will take time and focus to affect change. Not the quick fix men get with T injections etc. This latter is just over coming the symptoms and does not tackle the problems at all.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

AFEH said:


> You are absolutely right. Plus so little is known about how hormones interact with one another. Researchers even find that their investigations are tainted because oestrogen for example is used in the manufacture of test tubes and skews their results!


Sorry, this is wrong. Plastic test tubes (and other labware) may contain compounds that can bind to / interact with / activate oestrogen receptors (phthalates, bisphenol A etc). These are not oestrogens, and are only a problem if you use fuzzy non-selective methods, not proper, kooshti chemical methods like wot I do It's a well known potential problem in the analytical field.

Obviously the idea of doing proper control experiments and blank measurements before starting with all the real samples you only get one go at was a bit too radical and new-fangled for that research group


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Sawney Beane said:


> Sorry, this is wrong. Plastic test tubes (and other labware) may contain compounds that can bind to / interact with / activate oestrogen receptors (phthalates, bisphenol A etc). These are not oestrogens, and are only a problem if you use fuzzy non-selective methods, not proper, kooshti chemical methods like wot I do It's a well known potential problem in the analytical field.
> 
> Obviously the idea of doing proper control experiments and blank measurements before starting with all the real samples you only get one go at was a bit too radical and new-fangled for that research group


Well I watched it on tv so it must be right.


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## working_together (Oct 16, 2011)

COguy said:


> I don't mean to be insensitive, I just don't get it. Who are these men that don't like having sex with their wives?
> 
> Sometimes I want to take all the men in sexless marriages, and hook them up with the women who are married to low sex drive men. I'm just wondering what would happen after a few months.....
> 
> ...


Yeah, I really don't get the whole thing about men having a low sex drive, I guess it happens, as there's tons of women complaining about it on the sex forum. I think it's the whole fear of rejection thing, and then couples get stuck in a rut etc.

The same as I don't get how porn makes a man less interested in sex with his partner. Hubby watches a bit, we watch it occasionally before we head to the bedroom, but it's for enhancement. I totally thought that all men just watch it to do the same. Apparently there's a whole bunch of other stuff involved that does the reverse. Still puzzling.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

AFEH said:


> Well I watched it on tv so it must be right.


Stop it! You're making my ribs hurt!:rofl:


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Sawney Beane said:


> Stop it! You're making my ribs hurt!:rofl:


Sounds like you got yourself a half decent IQ unless you're bsing.

If you are into this stuff then I challenge you to make the most positive contribution to man that you can.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

...at this particular time in your life.


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

working_together said:


> The same as I don't get how porn makes a man less interested in sex with his partner. Hubby watches a bit, we watch it occasionally before we head to the bedroom, but it's for enhancement. I totally thought that all men just watch it to do the same. Apparently there's a whole bunch of other stuff involved that does the reverse. Still puzzling.


I can see how it would happen. I could see how someone could watch porn and they slowly start believing that women are just sex objects. Or how someone could get "bored" with their wife when all they are seeing sexually is crazy porn star sex. There was a period a few years back when I went from not watching any to every day and I noticed how at work when I saw a woman I would start thinking about how they would look in a porn video.

It got kind of annoying so I cut it back after that. Since d-day I haven't watched any out of respect for my wife and as a spiritual decision. I'm not trying to overreact about it but I have noticed that I default to thinking wholesome thoughts about the women I interact with as opposed to default thinking about inappropriate things and having to "turn it off."


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

COguy said:


> I can see how it would happen. I could see how someone could watch porn and they slowly start believing that women are just sex objects. Or how someone could get "bored" with their wife when all they are seeing sexually is crazy porn star sex. There was a period a few years back when I went from not watching any to every day and I noticed how at work when I saw a woman I would start thinking about how they would look in a porn video.
> 
> It got kind of annoying so I cut it back after that. Since d-day I haven't watched any out of respect for my wife and as a spiritual decision. I'm not trying to overreact about it but I have noticed that I default to thinking wholesome thoughts about the women I interact with as opposed to default thinking about inappropriate things and having to "turn it off."


Well done.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

AFEH said:


> Sounds like you got yourself a half decent IQ unless you're bsing.


IQ or not, I've been doing trace residue chemistry in the environmental / water industry for a long time now. The stuff about plasticware is fact.



> If you are into this stuff then I challenge you to make the most positive contribution to man that you can...at this particular time in your life.


Here's where the difference between IQ and being a chemist comes to the fore - you've lost me with this. What I ought I do for the good of all men?


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

heartsbeating said:


> It was an eye-opener for me too. We had a lot of stress going on, and because he takes it in his stride, I'd underestimated how this effected him.
> 
> While I don't say hurtful things to him, I'd be hurting him in ways I was completely oblivious to - through my actions or inactions. It could seem simple and unimportant to me but unknowingly spoke volumes to him about how much I care. Some of this relates to his own issues and some of it was me and I'm aware now. He is speaking up if something is bothering him (and this isn't a constant thing, it's just randomly). I'd never thought our communication was lacking, this has been a good thing for us.
> 
> ...


:iagree: That's exactly the path my marriage had headed to. Shame that it took 27 years to finally get it right, but boy what a difference it makes when you do...it's like being newly married again! Our sex life is not where it used to be, but better than where it was...I've learned patience and understanding...something I always though I had, but apparently didn't. He's learned that it's okay to be weak and open up.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> *Men don't want sex from their wives for only 4 reasons: Low t-count, porn, cheating or passive aggressive behavior. Period.*
> ....


I think this it in a nut shell.


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> I think this it in a nut shell.


To accept such a simplistic explanation automatically could cause many women in the situation of being married to a man with low libido to miss out on any hope of improving the situation. If a guy is in a relationship where he feels intimidated, criticised regularly, or just plain uncomfortable with his wife, sex is going to move way down on his priority list. When helping my brother through this difficult situation, I was amazed at how much information is out there about low libido husbands. Keep in mind that the psychological profiles these guys fit into usually make them less likely to participate in forums like this, where men make it sound like everyone is into porn.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Halien said:


> To accept such a simplistic explanation automatically could cause many women in the situation of being married to a man with low libido to miss out on any hope of improving the situation. If a guy is in a relationship where he feels intimidated, criticised regularly, or just plain uncomfortable with his wife, sex is going to move way down on his priority list. When helping my brother through this difficult situation, I was amazed at how much information is out there about low libido husbands. Keep in mind that the psychological profiles these guys fit into usually make them less likely to participate in forums like this, where men make it sound like everyone is into porn.


If a man has low t-count he can seek help for taht.

Yes there are some cases in which a wife berates her husband. That would turn anyone off. And if she does not stop it then the marriage should probably end. The same goes in the case where a man bereates his wife.

Please give some examles of how a man is intimidated by his wife thus is justified in refusing sex with her.

In many cases where a man refuses to have sex with his wife, low libido is not the case. He is simply refusing to have sex with his wife and using other outlets like affairs and porn.


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> If a man has low t-count he can seek help for taht.
> 
> Yes there are some cases in which a wife berates her husband. That would turn anyone off. And if she does not stop it then the marriage should probably end. The same goes in the case where a man bereates his wife.
> 
> ...


I didn't say that that low-sex marriages involved men with Low T, or that there is no treatment for low T. I was saying that making the summary that all men who fit into a category of low sex drive having to fit into categories of porn use, low T, PA, or cheating pretty much assures that the theory was postulated by a woman, and not a man who lives and breathes his own interpretation of his behaviors. Isn't is a little odd that a few women on a site can think that they understand something that most psychologists have barely scratched the surface of understanding? Do a quick google of what men really want and need for a healthy, vibrant, intimate relationship, and the answer becomes much more clear. Through no fault of their own, women often assume that men either fit into some stereotypical views, or they make assumptions based on what makes sense to them internally, as women. The google search will usually include the fact that men rather simplistically respond to a person who treats them like she admires him, respects him, and feels that he is the type of man who can fulfill her. Lock a guy into a marriage where these are missing, and a few men will lose their drive for sex with her. Their belief systems may prevent cheating and porn use. 

My brother, with a tested T range that was off the charts high, contemplated divorce over the issue (they divorced later). We are close, so we talked about the progress with a psychologist who had a phd, specializing in male sexual problems. I read some of the handouts. I know it was just one clinician, but this woman said that relationship where the man felt devalued, with resentment from the wife, was the number one sex life demotivator for men who fit into the general category of professional men. She said that this profile made up most of her practice. His sex life was great for a number of years, but his wife's idea of together time was listing his faults. I would blame him just as much as her, but he admitted that since cheating, porn, etc were pathetic excuses, he realized that he just no longer wanted to have sex anymore. Now that he's divorced, he's perfectly normal in the sex department. I'm high drive, but I think the biggest difference is that my wife has a very positive attitude about sex, 'cus it certainly ain't me.

Regardless, as a person trained in software engineering, I recognize that sites like this tend to attract people with very consistent types of interests and tendencies, or at least they fit into a range of people who cross certain internal thresholds of sharing. A general caution is that when we read about how all women apparently cheat, all men apparently like porn and blowjobs galore, we should never let ourself make sterotypical assessments of the general human population based upon such a small sampling size as this site.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Halien said:


> To accept such a simplistic explanation automatically could cause many women in the situation of being married to a man with low libido to miss out on any hope of improving the situation. If a guy is in a relationship where he feels intimidated, criticised regularly, or just plain uncomfortable with his wife, sex is going to move way down on his priority list. When helping my brother through this difficult situation, I was amazed at how much information is out there about low libido husbands. Keep in mind that the psychological profiles these guys fit into usually make them less likely to participate in forums like this, where men make it sound like everyone is into porn.


Simplistic eh? In your example of the husband not wanting sex because she is overbearing is exactly what PA behavior is about. Instead of telling her what issues he has with her, he withholds. 
Barring normal test levels, porn, or cheating, it comes down to PA behavior.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> :iagree: That's exactly the path my marriage had headed to. Shame that it took 27 years to finally get it right, but boy what a difference it makes when you do...it's like being newly married again! Our sex life is not where it used to be, but better than where it was...I've learned patience and understanding...something I always though I had, but apparently didn't. *He's learned that it's okay to be weak and open up*.


Shame that it took 27 years? ....how wonderful that you both learned and have been able to pull through together.

I'm nit-picking words but I wanted to comment on the word "weak" and I know you're not saying this is how YOU view your husband. 

I've seen hubs face aspects of himself and his past. I've heard him question if he's "man enough" for me and dealt with understanding that he IS deserving of my love and of me. To experience his growth through all of these different emotions, thoughts and conditioning, I can't even tell you how STRONG I now see him as a result. It's much easier to keep our heads in the sand and continue on as we always have.

I read this last night in a book by Matthieu Ricard: "We are very much like birds that have lived too long in a cage to which we return even when we get the chance to fly away. We have grown so accustomed to our faults that we can barely imagine what life would be like without them. The prospect of change makes us dizzy."

Of course this wasn't all about my husband. I faced things about myself too. The best thing I did for our marriage was to put a halt on the selfish mindset that was creeping in. As soon as my focus was back on "us" and a place of understanding, we had a chance. That was the best thing I could do.


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Simplistic eh? In your example of the husband not wanting sex because she is overbearing is exactly what PA behavior is about. Instead of telling her what issues he has with her, he withholds.
> Barring normal test levels, porn, or cheating, it comes down to PA behavior.


Passive aggressive involves the concept of a guy deliberately holding back. You make it sound like he wants it, but withoulds to punish. Yep, I'd call that simplistic only because it is trying to turn his motivations into something that can be labeled or branded. Please understand that I'm not saying that this is the norm, brighteyes. Some guys are a**holes about it, but there are some guys who are hurting about it too. The ones I've talked to want it badly, but are wrongfully convinced that their wife is just never happy with them. I suspect that many of these guys want a healthy sex life too, though. Again, its just based on information from a clinicician, but it was described as the the sexual connection being so threatening that he began to negatively obsess about being broken, in a sense, and unable to make her happy. If one simple term can describe what men want in a healthy sex life, being 'unthreatening' would hit the mark for a very wide range of men. The source of the threat is within the man, based on a feeling that he can't ever please her, or just that her approval is critical.

I know its like a slap in the face if he avoids the issues, or turns to porn, but am just saying that some guys apparently just feel like they are in over their heads.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Halien said:


> Passive aggressive involves the concept of a guy deliberately holding back. You make it sound like he wants it, but withoulds to punish. Yep, I'd call that simplistic only because it is trying to turn his motivations into something that can be labeled or branded. Please understand that I'm not saying that this is the norm, brighteyes. Some guys are a**holes about it, but there are some guys who are hurting about it too. The ones I've talked to want it badly, but are wrongfully convinced that their wife is just never happy with them. I suspect that many of these guys want a healthy sex life too, though. Again, its just based on information from a clinicician, but it was described as the the sexual connection being so threatening that he began to negatively obsess about being broken, in a sense, and unable to make her happy. If one simple term can describe what men want in a healthy sex life, being 'unthreatening' would hit the mark for a very wide range of men. The source of the threat is within the man, based on a feeling that he can't ever please her, or just that her approval is critical.
> 
> I know its like a slap in the face if he avoids the issues, or turns to porn, but am just saying that some guys apparently just feel like they are in over their heads.


I hear what you are saying. May I ask though how what you just wrote isn't PA behavior though? Sure they may want a healthy sex life but it isn't happening. They DO make a choice to not have sex because they feel that their wives are critical, etc. I see somebody who instead of discussing their hurt/anger, they instead pull back. How is that PA behavior? :scratchhead:


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Halien said:


> I didn't say that that low-sex marriages involved men with Low T, or that there is no treatment for low T. I was saying that making the summary that all men who fit into a category of low sex drive having to fit into categories of porn use, low T, PA, or cheating pretty much assures that the theory was postulated by a woman, and not a man who lives and breathes his own interpretation of his behaviors. Isn't is a little odd that a few women on a site can think that they understand something that most psychologists have barely scratched the surface of understanding?


I mentioned low t levels to get that out in the open and put aside as its an issue aside from the emotional ones that many have to deal with.



Halien said:


> Do a quick google of what men really want and need for a healthy, vibrant, intimate relationship, and the answer becomes much more clear. Through no fault of their own, women often assume that men either fit into some stereotypical views, or they make assumptions based on what makes sense to them internally, as women. The google search will usually include the fact that men rather simplistically respond to a person who treats them like she admires him, respects him, and feels that he is the type of man who can fulfill her. Lock a guy into a marriage where these are missing, and a few men will lose their drive for sex with her. Their belief systems may prevent cheating and porn use.


I will agree that this should be added to the list of reasons that some men to not have sex with their wives. It’s the same with women, many women who do not want to have sex with their husbands are responding to being badly treated by their husbands.
But this is hardly the only reason why some men stop having sex with their wives. I have read things that state that the main reason for this is that men use it as an expression of anger. As a way of punishing their wives. 
There is no one reason why some men do this.


Halien said:


> My brother, with a tested T range that was off the charts high, contemplated divorce over the issue (they divorced later). We are close, so we talked about the progress with a psychologist who had a phd, specializing in male sexual problems. I read some of the handouts. I know it was just one clinician, but this woman said that relationship where the man felt devalued, with resentment from the wife, was the number one sex life demotivator for men who fit into the general category of professional men. She said that this profile made up most of her practice. His sex life was great for a number of years, but his wife's idea of together time was listing his faults. I would blame him just as much as her, but he admitted that since cheating, porn, etc were pathetic excuses, he realized that he just no longer wanted to have sex anymore. Now that he's divorced, he's perfectly normal in the sex department. I'm high drive, but I think the biggest difference is that my wife has a very positive attitude about sex, 'cus it certainly ain't me.


Yes this was only one clinician. And your brother’s story is only one story. One story does not tell us why all men who chose to not have sex with their wives do so.
There are women who admire their husbands, who respect them and how feel that their husbands fill their needs…. And who are willing to discuss and work on the marriage with their husbands. But for whatever reason he might find, the husband decides to no longer have anything more to do with the wife sexually. There is generally a lot of anger involved on the part of the husband. But if he will not deal with it, include his wife in the solution then she has no responsibility for his angry, selfish choice.



Halien said:


> Regardless, as a person trained in software engineering, I recognize that sites like this tend to attract people with very consistent types of interests and tendencies, or at least they fit into a range of people who cross certain internal thresholds of sharing. A general caution is that when we read about how all women apparently cheat, all men apparently like porn and blowjobs galore, we should never let ourself make sterotypical assessments of the general human population based upon such a small sampling size as this site.


I’m a software engineer as well. I do not recall any classes that cover these topics….


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Simplistic eh? In your example of the husband not wanting sex because she is overbearing is exactly what PA behavior is about. Instead of telling her what issues he has with her, he withholds.
> Barring normal test levels, porn, or cheating, it comes down to PA behavior.


You missed the point of the lecture... :scratchhead:

It's her fault that he cannot tell her what he needs and what the issues are. It's the woman's fault in every case when a man chooses to end all sex in a marriage. Obviously it's because in every case its the WOMAN who is critical, not respectful and filles her husband cannot meet her needs. It's never because some men are just angry, even for reasons having nothing to do with the marraige, and hence choses to take it out on his wife. It's never becuase some men will not open up to their wives and share with them what they need in the marraige.

Nope, it's always her fault.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Halien said:


> Passive aggressive involves the concept of a guy deliberately holding back. You make it sound like he wants it, but withoulds to punish. Yep, I'd call that simplistic only because it is trying to turn his motivations into something that can be labeled or branded.


There is a lot of material about this very topic. Yes, some men, just like some women, withhold sex and affection as a passive aggressive way of punishing their spouse. 



Halien said:


> Please understand that I'm not saying that this is the norm, brighteyes. Some guys are a**holes about it, but there are some guys who are hurting about it too. The ones I've talked to want it badly, but are wrongfully convinced that their wife is just never happy with them. I suspect that many of these guys want a healthy sex life too, though. Again, its just based on information from a clinicician, but it was described as the the sexual connection being so threatening that he began to negatively obsess about being broken, in a sense, and unable to make her happy. If one simple term can describe what men want in a healthy sex life, being 'unthreatening' would hit the mark for a very wide range of men. The source of the threat is within the man, based on a feeling that he can't ever please her, or just that her approval is critical.


Of course this is the case for some men. It’s the case for some women as well. Both sexes can have their sexual desire for their spouse extinguished by things their spouse does that hurts them.

But there are also a fair number of people, male and female who use withholding sex as a way to punish their spouse. 


Halien said:


> I know its like a slap in the face if he avoids the issues, or turns to porn, but am just saying that some guys apparently just feel like they are in over their heads.


The operative word there is SOME. It is not the explanation for why all of the men who withhold sex do so.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> There are women who admire their husbands, who respect them and how feel that their husbands fill their needs…. And who are willing to discuss and work on the marriage with their husbands. But for whatever reason he might find, the husband decides to no longer have anything more to do with the wife sexually. There is generally a lot of anger involved on the part of the husband. But if he will not deal with it, include his wife in the solution then she has no responsibility for his angry, selfish choice.


My husband wanted this connection with me too. For him, it was partly self-destructive and partly self-esteem related (from childhood), as well as partly passive-aggressive, as to why this was happening. Interestingly, our dynamic wasn't always like this. There were certain factors involved.

We both needed to make changes. Thankfully he was able to face aspects about himself for us to move ahead. He owned his part. Thankfully I was able to have patience and understanding for us to move ahead. I also had to change my behavior for us to change patterns together. We still loved each other. We still desired each other. 

We all have stuff to learn. We are all flawed. It's only possible to improve relationships if both people are aware of what's happening and willing and able to do the work - although I think with these types of self-discovery moments, it needs to primarily be for ourselves. It's almost too much to go through for someone else. I don't know if this makes sense. I think it needs to be one's own journey to learn. And if the relationship benefits as a result, if we can support each other during these moments, then even better.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

heartsbeating said:


> My husband wanted this connection with me too. For him, it was partly self-destructive and partly self-esteem related (from childhood), as well as partly passive-aggressive, as to why this was happening. Interestingly, our dynamic wasn't always like this. There were certain factors involved.
> 
> We both needed to make changes. Thankfully he was able to face aspects about himself for us to move ahead. He owned his part. Thankfully I was able to have patience and understanding for us to move ahead. I also had to change my behavior for us to change patterns together. We still loved each other. We still desired each other.
> 
> We all have stuff to learn. We are all flawed. It's only possible to improve relationships if both people are aware of what's happening and willing and able to do the work - although I think with these types of self-discovery moments, it needs to primarily be for ourselves. It's almost too much to go through for someone else. I don't know if this makes sense. I think it needs to be one's own journey to learn. And if the relationship benefits as a result, if we can support each other during these moments, then even better.


You and your husband are lucky to have each other and to have worked through this.

In my previous marriage things did not end up so well. He just go angrier over the years, a lot of it was directed at his parents. He took it out on me. There was nothing I could do right. Nothing I cooked was good enough. He’d throw the dish of food at me across the dinner table. I could not clean the house right. If I cleaned bedroom first, he’d yell that I should have done the dishes first. I worked full time as did he. We made the same money as we were both engineers at that time. Then he went to medical school and supported him and our new son. And it got worse. In the 7th year he cut off all sex and affection. That lasted for another 7 years. I tried to get him to work on the marriage, his anger, etc. I know I am not perfect. I am willing to change. As time went on it was clear that we has having affair after affair. 

I was able to get him to go to counseling for a while. His participation ended with a huge blowout in which he screamed at me and the counselor. He told us under no uncertain terms that he wanted nothing to do with me sexually. Of course he had no problem having me support him through his medical school.

As the counselor said, he was angry at things that had nothing to do with me. He transferred the anger to me and took it out on me. If he chose not to address the issues in the marriage and give me a chance to meet his needs then he holds 100% responsibility for his actions.


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> I’m a software engineer as well. I do not recall any classes that cover these topics….


Interesting! So, you didn't study how a subject-based information environment tends to attract people who are looking for that type of environment, and not the more general human population?

You are accusing me in your threads of trying to lay the fault of an issue at the feet of women, which I find to be counter-productive to a thread that happened to be posted in the Men's Clubhouse. Instead, since it was in the Men's Clubhouse, the reply was intended to offer that lumping something very complex into a full exposition of male low sex drive will likely short circuit many attempts to resolve the problem. No, I am no an expert in psychology, and don't understand why you seem to keep turning this into a personal attack, but I am a man and a certified 6 Sigma Black Belt. So, my job is to take a look at simplistic assumptions and turn them into a discrete statistical analysis of tendencies based on human preferences. A basic rule is that if you think you can lump human motivation into a few stereotypical associations, then the only thing you can be assured of is that the assumption is wrong.

The operative tem you missed from my post was 'some men', which, if you look at the context of how you say that all low sex drive men fit into four categories, my reply was only trying to suggest that there may be more than four, and that the 5th one can be pretty significant, unless you make the assumption that all women in these situation approach the subject in a productive manner. As I said, it was one clinician, BUT I also said that this one clinician cited that her experience, practice, and studies taught her that this is a pretty significant issue, not related necessarily to PA type behaviors. I do not want to offend guys who are like this, just as I was trying not to offend women in this situation, so I left it at saying that it was through no fault of the woman, in my opinion. I suspect, based on discussions with other men, that some (Please note this time that I said some) men in this situation just feel a similar level of humiliation at their failures, so both partners fear to approach the topic in a healthy way. I think it is sad. Knowing my wife like I do, it would probably hurt her more than anything, and no woman deserves that. But I think that a solution can't be found by just objectifying the men as bad men with porn addictions, a few affair partners on the side, and sadistic PA tendencies. Some might just be scared guys.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> As the counselor said, he was angry at things that had nothing to do with me. He transferred the anger to me and took it out on me. If he chose not to address the issues in the marriage and give me a chance to meet his needs then he holds 100% responsibility for his actions.


Agreed. 

Despite this disconnect, hubs has always treated me with respect and consideration. What we had was worth fighting for. But we both needed to face up to what was happening. His strength in this whole process left me flawed. 

I could not have endured what you did, especially for that length of time. It sounds like you know that you did all you could and recognize it wasn't on you. This no doubt means (hopefully) you moved on with peace of mind for yourself.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

EleGirl said:


> You missed the point of the lecture... :scratchhead:
> 
> It's her fault that he cannot tell her what he needs and what the issues are. It's the woman's fault in every case when a man chooses to end all sex in a marriage. Obviously it's because in every case its the WOMAN who is critical, not respectful and filles her husband cannot meet her needs. It's never because some men are just angry, even for reasons having nothing to do with the marraige, and hence choses to take it out on his wife. It's never becuase some men will not open up to their wives and share with them what they need in the marraige.
> 
> Nope, it's always her fault.


Lecture? Halien doesn't lecture, he speaks his mind and I don't think he was blaming women, I think he was saying that there are reasons why some don't want sex. I think he did a poor job of explaining it....a rare occurrence for him. 
Halien, I gotta say that your reasoning did strike me as being odd. While I understand some of what you are saying, it didn't gel with me in that I still go back to PA behavior. Perhaps I missed something but it smacked of "she's being controlling.....I withhold" regardless of intent.


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Lecture? Halien doesn't lecture, he speaks his mind and I don't think he was blaming women, I think he was saying that there are reasons why some don't want sex. I think he did a poor job of explaining it....a rare occurrence for him.
> Halien, I gotta say that your reasoning did strike me as being odd. While I understand some of what you are saying, it didn't gel with me in that I still go back to PA behavior. Perhaps I missed something but it smacked of "she's being controlling.....I withhold" regardless of intent.


Thank you, brighteyes. Its hard to describe because I've only dealt with it through my brother and friends. But for the sake of argument, say that a guy feels like his wife is healthy, vivacious, but he seems to be sensitive to the fact that she knows his faults all too well. He's not sure why, but as the years pass, he can't get this out of his head when they are together, so he begins to avoid sex. Why doesn't he just speak up? Well, my friend once said that it was like approaching a woman that you have made yourself afraid of, and telling her "I am not a real man. I'm afraid." I think that once that wall goes up in a guys mind, it takes serious work to get it down, and by the time he's ready to work on it, I'm pretty sure the wife is breathing smoke, more or less. 

Because I tend to be the alpha type, I'll admit that I also used to really study the weaknesses of other men. Its like you pick apart the other people who may on your team, learn thier weaknesses, so you can best leverage what you have to build a high caliber team. Its something I'm known for, because I used to get the guys with a 4A score (out the door), and have to turn them around into a productive professional. I'll offend people, I'm sure, but a significant percentage of men are avoiders. Bad thing is, you'd have to break their arm to get them to admit it, too. Sorry for sounding harsh. I wouldn't call it PA because I think think its more accurately some sort of "desperate avoider" complex, or the "I'll be more aggressive tomorrow" complex. I've had more than one wife at company parties asking if I could get her husband as motivated about her as they are on the team.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

heartsbeating said:


> Agreed.
> 
> Despite this disconnect, hubs has always treated me with respect and consideration. What we had was worth fighting for. But we both needed to face up to what was happening. His strength in this whole process left me flawed.
> 
> I could not have endured what you did, especially for that length of time. It sounds like you know that you did all you could and recognize it wasn't on you. This no doubt means (hopefully) you moved on with peace of mind for yourself.


I tried to leave at the 3.5 year mark after the no-sex started. I moved out of our house with our young son. My attorney had put some things in the divorce papers about my ex-h being physically abusive and me being afraid of him. Well my H has his attorney call an emergency meeting. We can a female judge who is known for siding with the husband. She had the divorce papers sealed because ‘we cannot have negative things about a doctor in public records’. She then ordered me to return our son to the family home where my husband was living. There was no way I was going to return a child under 4 to an abusive husband. He would have his mother watch our son… the mother who I caught kicking our son. So I returned home with our son. I stayed with for the rest of the time following two paths… one to fix the marriage if at all possible and the other to find the right time to leave if he did not join me in fixing the marriage. I stayed to protect my son.

I did leave when the time was right, I had a different attorney and by that time I had established a record that my H was physically abusive to me. That time I was much wiser, had a different attorney and a different judge.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Halien said:


> Interesting! So, you didn't study how a subject-based information environment tends to attract people who are looking for that type of environment, and not the more general human population?


No I did not. I studied, computer languages, compilers, algorithms, advanced math, engineering topics, physics, embedded software, project management, etc. You know.. software engineering and computer science topics.


Halien said:


> You are accusing me in your threads of trying to lay the fault of an issue at the feet of women,


And you apparently completely missed that I stated more than once that yes, when some men are mistreated by their wives they will end sexual relations in the marriage. It’s the same thing that some women do when they are mistreated. No big surprise there.


Halien said:


> I am a man and a certified 6 Sigma Black Belt


I’m a woman and certified 6 Sigma Black Belt. Exactly what is this piss contest about?


Halien said:


> The operative tem you missed from my post was 'some men', which, if you look at the context of how you say that all low sex drive men fit into four categories, my reply was only trying to suggest that there may be more than four, and that the 5th one can be pretty significant,


And you apparently have missed more than once when I agreed that there is the category that you are talking about.


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

heartsbeating said:


> My husband wanted this connection with me too. For him, it was partly self-destructive and partly self-esteem related (from childhood), as well as partly passive-aggressive, as to why this was happening. Interestingly, our dynamic wasn't always like this. There were certain factors involved.
> 
> We both needed to make changes. Thankfully he was able to face aspects about himself for us to move ahead. He owned his part. Thankfully I was able to have patience and understanding for us to move ahead. I also had to change my behavior for us to change patterns together. We still loved each other. We still desired each other.
> 
> We all have stuff to learn. We are all flawed. It's only possible to improve relationships if both people are aware of what's happening and willing and able to do the work - although I think with these types of self-discovery moments, it needs to primarily be for ourselves. It's almost too much to go through for someone else. I don't know if this makes sense. I think it needs to be one's own journey to learn. And if the relationship benefits as a result, if we can support each other during these moments, then even better.


I'm trying not to make generalizations here, but because many women tend to be more in touch with their feelings, I think its much easier for men, in general, to verbalize anger and accusations instead of true feelings in cases like this. Add a degree of shame, sexual frustration and other conflict, and the problem has to appear unfixable at times. I don't want to read into your situation, but was really trying to point out in previous posts that while it may be easy to brand the husband as an offender of some sort, taking this mindset of looking at it like a complex journey to resolve, if the situation is not too broken, can offer a better chance of resolution.

As a man, I realized that my wife looked at the issue of sexual relationships much differently, and perhaps more complex than I did. For so many years, sex was a minimum of ten times a week. Anything less, and she began to question her body image. The crazy thing was that this never entered my mind. I only thought about how cruel it was to herself to be unable to see that I worshipped her beauty, but was okay with skipping the morning sex on the weekend once and a while. To be honest, my frustration in communicating this wasn't smething I'm proud of. While we were at a point later of having sex five to six times a week, she told me on several occasions that our relationship was over, and that I was a mean SOB. It took us a few more years, on about our 20 year mark, until we both began to approach it without carrying our own judgements of each other into the discussions. When I think about what must go on with people who have an empty sex life, the whole thing feels like a tradgedy. And to see the threads go largely unanswered by men was pretty sad too. I've proven that this subject isn't my forte, so this will be my last attempt to venture here. I'll stick to the easier ones.


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> And you apparently have missed more than once when I agreed that there is the category that you are talking about.


Sorry, but being accused of lecturing, in a post within the Men's Clubhouse, just set me off inappropriately. I don't want to hijack a thread any more.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

COguy said:


> I don't mean to be insensitive, I just don't get it. Who are these men that don't like having sex with their wives?
> 
> Sometimes I want to take all the men in sexless marriages, and hook them up with the women who are married to low sex drive men. I'm just wondering what would happen after a few months.....
> 
> ...


Come back in a few weeks. The 'theme of the week' will be something different, yet tantalizing similar. 

Seriously, though, research shows that 1 out of 5 men have a 'lower' libido - any number of reasons - emotional, relational, mental, physical, spiritual. Women don't hold a unique position on the stereotype. 

So, one thing that this forum has taught me - you have to embrace the uniqueness of each person and their situation. We are NOT all alike and that is OK. Makes the world go around, and gives all of us eager beavers something to do on a Saturday morning to go out to TAM and indeed verify that very uniquess by reading about other people's situations that are completely different than our own.

Well, but I have heard that we are all like snowflakes on here. So we are unique... but alike all at the same time. Gotta go - feel myself melting.


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## FirstYearDown (Sep 15, 2011)

"FirstYearDown wrt your brother a man’s 40s are an extremely critical time of their life. It’s when they do the Big Assessment. When they look back and see what they’ve done (or haven’t done), take stock of what they have now and look into the future as far as they can. Sometimes they can see that they can’t ever have what they’ve always wanted, what they’ve always dreamed of because it is too late. *Much like a woman past her menopause and can’t have her own child.*"

AFEH, you clearly did not use a qualifier like "some" or "many." You said "Much like a woman....", so my response had nothing to do with my childfreedom. I was simply communicating my views about a statement that you made.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

FirstYearDown said:


> "FirstYearDown wrt your brother a man’s 40s are an extremely critical time of their life. It’s when they do the Big Assessment. When they look back and see what they’ve done (or haven’t done), take stock of what they have now and look into the future as far as they can. Sometimes they can see that they can’t ever have what they’ve always wanted, what they’ve always dreamed of because it is too late. *Much like a woman past her menopause and can’t have her own child.*"
> 
> AFEH, you clearly did not use a qualifier like "some" or "many." You said "Much like a woman....", so my response had nothing to do with my childfreedom. I was simply communicating my views about a statement that you made.


Crazy. But you go ahead and believe you know my meaning better than I do even after I corrected you.


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## I Know (Dec 14, 2011)

COguy said:


> I don't mean to be insensitive, I just don't get it. Who are these men that don't like having sex with their wives?


I don't know, but I wish I were one of them. Thinking about, making plans and arrangements for, and selling the wife on sex is a major time suck. I think I would have an extra hour per day if I never wanted sex.


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