# Cheating- who is to blame?



## bunny23 (May 19, 2011)

BTW I have noticed this pattern of making people (on TAM) who cheated responsible for EVERYTHING in the relationship.

I even noticed a post where PHYSICAL ABUSE of a spouse for YEARS didn't matter/was equal to a one night stand aka cheating.

I have NEVER had a physical affair, nor an emotional one. But living with an abusive spouse, who was also cheating on me, I can see how being in a terrible place in your life can make you lose yourself and seek COMFORT somewhere.

Unless there was a clear situation where one person cheated out of boredom or whatever.. I think some people need to realize they are projecting and, in some cases, being cruel.

Cheating is not okay, but there are situations where someone is so lost or in pain that they want to escape. Specifically true for men and women who were in abusive/controlling relationships. 

I will be the first person to admit that although I took the "high road" and didn't cheat it was most likely because after my stbx men repulsed me (there was some sexual abuse/demeaning in my case) 
Had I met someone who gave me any escape at that time, even emotionally I don't know if I would have considered it cheating.

There are cases where the relationship is long over even though the papers are not signed.

I understand this is very painful for people that have been cheated on, especially when they felt there were no real problems in the marriage.. only to find out their spouse was having a/multiple PA/EA. 
I had it happen to me and the only reason I didn't have a breakdown is probably due to the abuse and numbness- I had no more feeling left to give.

But in cases where it's not so clear or there is obvious abuse I think we should all have some empathy.

I think these cases are VERY different from the deliberate scheming and cheating ones.

BTW I am not talking about giving people a critical analysis of their life and trying to wake them up, I'm talking about posts that ignore everything the "poor innocent" spouse has done while vilifying the actions of the "cheater".... 

Do people agree? Or ?


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## tulsy (Nov 30, 2012)

bunny23 said:


> BTW I have noticed this pattern of making people (on TAM) who cheated responsible for EVERYTHING in the relationship.
> 
> I even noticed a post where PHYSICAL ABUSE of a spouse for YEARS didn't matter/was equal to a one night stand aka cheating.
> 
> ...


I don't know where you are seeing this. 

What I see over and over again here at TAM; 
- the problems in the marriage are split 50/50, but the cheating is 100% the fault of the cheater.


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

bunny23 said:


> BTW I have noticed this pattern of making people (on TAM) who cheated responsible for EVERYTHING in the relationship.
> 
> I even noticed a post where PHYSICAL ABUSE of a spouse for YEARS didn't matter/was equal to a one night stand aka cheating.
> 
> ...



You can't control what your spouse does. You can only control what you do and what you'll accept. For some people, cheating is a grey area, it's acceptable given the "right circumstances" and for others, it's not.

I'm someone who says cheating isn't acceptable, ever. If my wife was the WORST wife in the world...picture ever possible thing she could do poorly to me. I still wouldn't cheat. I'd divorce her. To me, cheating doesn't reflect poorly on the BS, it reflects on the wayward. I would be cheating my own integrity and personal code. I would be saying my word means nothing. I promised that as long as I'm in this marriage, I would be faithful. 

Now if my spouse breaks their promises, it doesn't allow me to break mine, this isn't tit for tat. I can choose to stay and see if they can fix their side, or I can leave. There's no "kinda married". Cheating is being "kinda married".


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## MaritimeGuy (Jul 28, 2012)

I can be sympathetic to the conditions that lead up to someone cheating however I will never be convinced it was the right decision for them to make. There are times in peoples lives that they are so distraught they make bad choices. Cheating is a bad choice. I'm not going to necessarily condemn the person however I will condemn their choice.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

I cheated on my spouse. I guess by definition, they were two "exit affairs" 

The decision to cheat was entirely mine. I had other options that I chose not exercise. In particular, I had the option to get out of my marriage BEFORE looking for someone to meet my missing intimacy needs. Ironically enough, within one month of my first affair, I decided that having an affair wasn't going to solve anything anyway, and I told my wife I wanted a separation anyway. The end result was the same, with the exception of my lost ethics/morals. 

Having said all that... Was there things that my wife did that directly impacted my happiness in our marriage and in particular, our intimacy? Absolutely. She unilaterally shut down our sex life. She knew this was huge issue for me. We had numerous discussions about it. Yet she continued to be the mistress of avoiding it. I wasn't asking for anything extreme... Once a week, with active participation was all I required. The fact that I'd never gotten a BJ to completion, that anal wasn't an option, not an issue. In return, I tried to set her needs as I understood them, but obviously something wasn't connecting. Either she wasn't communicating her needs, or I wasn't understanding. 

To sum up the rationalization for my actions... The decision to cheat was entirely mine. But the decision to shut down our sex life, thereby putting me in a situation where cheating was even a consideration? That was entirely hers. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

While I have empathy toward any spouse that has endured abuse, their sensible reaction is to leave or divorce, and if severe enough, file charges. Cheating is a cowardly and immoral choice, even in that situation. 

No matter what the state of the marriage, there is an honorable alternative to cheating. Talk or walk. 

So, I'm not persuaded by your argument, but I respect your right to express it.


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## GROUNDPOUNDER (Mar 8, 2013)

badmemory said:


> While I have empathy toward any spouse that has endured abuse, their sensible reaction is to leave or divorce, and if severe enough, file charges. Cheating is a cowardly and immoral choice, even in that situation.
> 
> No matter what the state of the marriage, there is an honorable alternative to cheating. Talk or walk.
> 
> So, I'm not persuaded by your argument, but I respect your right to express it.


The cheaters fault. ALWAYS.

If you're in an abusive relationship, GET OUT. Laying down with an OM/OW is only going to make the situation worse.

Not to mention the fact of what happens to you when your physically abusive spouse finds out that you've been cheating one them. Jail for one and the hospital(or worse) for the other. Add children and it compounds the damage.


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## lisab0105 (Oct 26, 2011)

I don't agree bunny...there is never an excuse to cheat. My fiancé has cheated on me while pregnant and mindf*cked me hard for 6 months afterwards...and since Nov of 2012 he has turned physically aggressive. 

There isn't a bone in my body that is yearning for another man. 

I only want one man...the man I fell in love with. But he is long gone I am afraid, unless his counseling performs a miracle. 

Cheating isn't okay. I have no empathy for anyone who feels they have a right to "escape".


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

bunny23 said:


> BTW I have noticed this pattern of making people (on TAM) who cheated responsible for EVERYTHING in the relationship.
> 
> I even noticed a post where PHYSICAL ABUSE of a spouse for YEARS didn't matter/was equal to a one night stand aka cheating.
> 
> ...


The 'cheater' is the one doing something deceptive, cruel and abusive.. so yes, they are the villian.. and the 'poor innocent' spouse, is blind sided by this deception, so yes, they are innocent since they've had no part in the affair other than being abused by the WS and AP. One can have empathy without excusing the 'choice' to cheat on the part of the cheater. Often times both partners are missing something in the relationship, or the pain is there for both. As someone who's wife was in a very LTA, I can tell you that I was feeling some pain.. I was feeling some need for escape, and I was never abusive or controlling to my wife. If I was, there were better ways to cry out for help than 'escaping' with her boyfriend from work... 

So yea, relationships, both have to work at it.. but cheating, 100% on the person that chooses that route. It only does damage, there is no magic cure to be found for your marriage by sneaking off and sleeping with someone other than your spouse. No matter how you spin it..

To summarize, if my wife said to me.. "I'm not happy, I need an escape, you are controlling and I want to sleep with the guy at work, is that okay?" I would have said "No, that's not okay, lets go to MC or get a divorce instead...."


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

One other note.. do you know how someone like me goes years without cheating, even though he's not getting all his needs met by his wife, and even though she's abusing him by being in an affair with the guy at work (yes, it's true, no matter how bad your relationship problems are... an affair will make it 100x worse..)?

I'll tell you how.. it's not because I didn't have chances, it's not because I didn't think about it, it's because I respect myself and the vows I took, and I understand boundaries and how to not put myself in that position. When I did find myself in a situation that was tempting, I found strength in the ring on my finger. The one that my wife decided at some point to stop wearing, probably out of guilt... 

Also, any time I would even suggest to my wife that I may have had some role in her cheating, her words to me are something along the line of 'you didn't do this, I did this..' 

I do admit I wasn't the perfect husband, but I was far from abusive, and very far from deserving of being treated like that.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

russell28 said:


> *One other note.. do you know how someone like me goes years without cheating, even though he's not getting all his needs met by his wife, and even though she's abusing him by being in an affair with the guy at work (yes, it's true, no matter how bad your relationship problems are... an affair will make it 100x worse..)?*
> 
> I'll tell you how.. it's not because I didn't have chances, it's not because I didn't think about it, it's because I respect myself and the vows I took, and I understand boundaries and how to not put myself in that position. When I did find myself in a situation that was tempting, I found strength in the ring on my finger. The one that my wife decided at some point to stop wearing, probably out of guilt...
> 
> ...


:iagree::iagree: *Frequently the BS has their needs unmet as well but guess what they didn't cheat!! * the BS has NO role whatsoever in their spouses decision to cheat....if there are problems in the marriage try to work on them or leave but like I've said before cheating because of unhappiness is like using a nuclear bomb to settle a trade dispute....


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

I see both sides of the situation and all I have to say is its hard to judge until you have walked the proverable mile in their shoes.

each and every case is unique and each and every person needs to be accountable for their actions or inactions.


for me the decission is to not cheat no matter what. thats just how I roll. do I hold it aginst someone who dosen't have my opinion and decides that they are going to cheat because of this or that or woe is me I deserve it. 

Yes when it is conserning a relationship with me I do. but other wise not.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Honestly, this is a hard one. My wife magnified every little flaw in our marriage to relieve herself from guilt. Think along the lines of “if he is a good husband, I wouldn’t have to cheat. But because he is a bad one, he should know I would go elsewhere.” So, in her mind I needed to be ‘a bad husband’. That leads to seeking out and finding flaws and making them seriously overinflated marriage problems. 

So there are some issues, but they aren’t bad: She would magnify stuff to the ludicrous.. Example: I loaded the dishwasher my way and she acted as though it was a sign of how much I disrespected her opinions about everything because she wouldn’t do it like that and I refused to reload it ‘the right way’ when she asked. A fork put tongs up (where the kids might stab themselves) becomes some deep sign that I don’t respect her, never have, and will ignore her anyway (feeding right into me ‘abandoning’ her and her having no value in my life beyond sex (which is where I was complaining)). She ignores the obvious and goes to the extreme conspiracy theory.

So where are the real issues? That freaking fog brings them all into question as to who really owns that issue and when all this really started. And well, me doing things my way is not what destroyed our marriage. How would I take very seriously now any complaint or ‘marriage advice’ from someone who fails miserably at it? I judge myself now.... She lost that deeper influence over me and all respect as far as ‘how it should be’. That's simply dead; it is now about 'how it is' and dealing with that. 

So all the past marriage problems really become brain damage to try and assign blame because it becomes a “chicken and the egg” argument. Dig deeper into personal issues and work on those instead. 

50/50 is a fantasy counselors came up with because no one wants to take full blame and tend to get defensive as hell when called out. It’s a simplification of compromise like any negotiation. What’s the saying?; “A negotiation shall be considered successful if all parties walk away feeling screwed.” That’s 50/50 summed up.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

I can imagine an extreme circumstance where I could choose to cheat. For example, my spouse were in prison for life for a heinous crime and I was unable to divorce for some legal reason.

Otherwise, truly, this is a choice that people have control over. I can sympathize with the urge for closeness and compassion, especially in an abusive situation, but it's illogical to say that cheating is a natural, understandable, acceptable reaction. You can just as easily make the same case for alcoholism, drug addiction or any other poorly chosen behavior that helps get you through the awful days. These all start out as choices, choices that are not inevitable and that we can reject.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Racer said:


> Honestly, this is a hard one. My wife magnified every little flaw in our marriage to relieve herself from guilt. Think along the lines of “if he is a good husband, I wouldn’t have to cheat. But because he is a bad one, he should know I would go elsewhere.” So, in her mind I needed to be ‘a bad husband’. That leads to seeking out and finding flaws and making them seriously overinflated marriage problems.
> 
> So there are some issues, but they aren’t bad: She would magnify stuff to the ludicrous.. Example: I loaded the dishwasher my way and she acted as though it was a sign of how much I disrespected her opinions about everything because she wouldn’t do it like that and I refused to reload it ‘the right way’ when she asked. A fork put tongs up (where the kids might stab themselves) becomes some deep sign that I don’t respect her, never have, and will ignore her anyway (feeding right into me ‘abandoning’ her and her having no value in my life beyond sex (which is where I was complaining)). She ignores the obvious and goes to the extreme conspiracy theory.
> 
> ...


Racer putting forks in the dishwasher upside down, obviously driving his wife into the arms of a man that understands the finer points of winning a woman's heart through proper dishwasher loading.. Should read the MMDWLP (married mans dishwasher loading primer)... It changed the way I load dishes, and my life.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

alte Dame said:


> I can imagine an extreme circumstance where I could choose to cheat. For example, my spouse were in prison for life for a heinous crime and I was unable to divorce for some legal reason.


Yes, but in such case would you "truly" cheat, or would you notify your spouse of your intentions due to the situation at hand and how since you couldn't be with them you and you couldn't divorce, you were going to move on, even though legally you were married?

In such a case I don't know if that would be cheating (it would be adultery in the eyes of God), since the betrayal, hiding, and lies about your true feelings wouldn't be hidden but be in the open and made known beforehand.


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## remorseful strayer (Nov 13, 2012)

bunny23 said:


> BTW I have noticed this pattern of making people (on TAM) who cheated responsible for EVERYTHING in the relationship.


I haven't noticed that pattern at all. The people here declare the cheater responsible for the cheating, not responsible for all the discord in the marriage. 

Nevertheless, I cheated, and it was solely my decision to do so.  We had no problems other than the typical marital stuff. 

Some people may be abused, in those cases seek legal help and divorce. Cheating is wrong and BTW dangerous. An abusive spouse may become very violent. 

So, if for no other reason other than for personal safety, cheating is not a wise move, if a spouse is abusive. 

Other people may feel their sex life is not up to par. In those cases a complete medical followed by sex therapy, marital counseling or individual counseling to ferret out reasons for not desiring sex should be the first option. 

If the marriage is still unbearable, a divorce is the best choice. 

Cheating, because a person is unhappy in the marriage, does not give the faithful partner any chance to address the issue. 

It is wrong. Been there done that, feel like a humongous Arse.

I think the first step in judging a real reconciliation from a false one is the cheaters willingness to own the wrongness of what they did.

Looking to rationalize the cheating is the first sign of someone who is not truly remorseful and likely will never change.


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## maincourse99 (Aug 15, 2012)

Cheaters choose to cheat because they want to. Only they really know why. 

Unhappy with marriage/relationship? Don't want to try to fix things? Leave, file. When divorce is final, date. Simple. 

Tempted to cheat? Resist. 

There is one scenario I can think of where I would understand cheating. A person you're very attracted to captures you at gunpoint, ties you up, puts a gun to your head and tells you to have sex with them or they'll blow your brains out. 

In that case, you should have sex with them, not a problem


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## remorseful strayer (Nov 13, 2012)

Racer said:


> 50/50 is a fantasy counselors came up with because no one wants to take full blame and tend to get defensive as hell when called out. It’s a simplification of compromise like any negotiation. What’s the saying?; “A negotiation shall be considered successful if all parties walk away feeling screwed.” That’s 50/50 summed up.


All good points. An experienced marriage counselor will definitively explain that the cheater is in the wrong, they will be advised to set boundaries, if they had none. They will be advised to offer transparency, etc.

Any other issues in the marriage that created unhappiness or discord will be put on hold, until the infidelity crisis is addressed and the blame accepted and admitted to by the betrayer. 

Until then, the betrayed spouse will not be able to recover, nor trust the reconciliation is real.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

maincourse99 said:


> Cheaters choose to cheat because they want to. Only they really know why.
> 
> Unhappy with marriage/relationship? Don't want to try to fix things? Leave, file. When divorce is final, date. Simple.
> 
> ...


You've obviously given this some thought


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## In The Dark (Aug 24, 2011)

Which is better? 

"I wanted to have sex with someone else" or "My spouse was so awful, mean and abusive that I sought refuge in the one person who could show empathy for what I was going through."

The truth is they are both the same. They are both reasons for going outside the marriage. One is direct but most cheaters couldn't be that direct. The other is justification for the cheater's actions. But both still had sex with someone else.

Plain and simple. If you want to be with someone else, leave the marriage. It's the choice, the action that matters. Not the reason or justification behind it. (And some people have good reasons to leave but in my opinion, there are not good reasons to cheat.)


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

maincourse99 said:


> There is one scenario I can think of where I would understand cheating. A person you're very attracted to captures you at gunpoint, ties you up, puts a gun to your head and tells you to have sex with them or I'll blow your brains out.
> 
> In that case, you should have sex with them, not a problem


That's not cheating that is rape. A completely different scenario and definitely not comparable, as you are not choosing to cheat and have sex with that person, you are choosing self preservation and to not be killed.


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## remorseful strayer (Nov 13, 2012)

In The Dark said:


> Which is better?
> 
> "I wanted to have sex with someone else" or "My spouse was so awful, mean and abusive that I sought refuge in the one person who could show empathy for what I was going through."
> 
> The truth is they are both the same.


Neither is better. Both reasons are lame. Any reason is lame. 

They are not both, however, the same. 

Here's the difference: People who cheat for sex often still love their spouse and want to preserve the marriages. So they cheat and hope they don't get caught. 

But, if a person is in an emotionally or physically abusive marriage, it would *not* be *healthy* for the abused spouse to love their abuser or to wish to preserve the marriage, unless change was achieved through counseling.

Someone who is caught having an affair, and fails to cut off the affair immediately, is also being abusive.....emotionally abusive. 

My wife new nothing of the affair. I treated her the same and she was basically happy in the marriage, according to her.

She was naturally and understandably unhappy, when my affair partner outed me.

Edited to change the word unhealthy to healthy ( thank you to the person that alerted me to that typo.)


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

In The Dark said:


> Which is better?
> 
> "I wanted to have sex with someone else" or "My spouse was so awful, mean and abusive that I sought refuge in the one person who could show empathy for what I was going through."
> 
> ...


It usually goes like this

"I wanted to have sex with someone else" so I convinced myself "My spouse was so awful, mean and abusive that I sought refuge in the one person who could show empathy for what I was going through."


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## Pepper123 (Nov 27, 2012)

I can see both sides on this... 

My ExH tried to kill me. He strangled me until I passed out a number of times over the course of two years. I lost a child as a result. The charges that were filed were 2 felonies - domestic violence and terrorist threats, as he actually left a VM threatening to kill me if I didn't come home (I had left when I came to). 

Although at the time I didn't know what an EA was, in retrospect it probably was one. I was suicidal, deeply depressed... a complete mess. Ultimately I left him. 

I own what I did. It was my decision. I suppose you could say that we emotionally tortured each other. Neither action is or will ever be justifiable.


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## Red Sonja (Sep 8, 2012)

Bunny, I think you are forgetting an important factor and that is ...

*When you cheat you are also cheating on your children, you are devastating their lives, ruining their sense of security and safety and modeling morally reprehensible behavior to them.*

JMHO


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## Pepper123 (Nov 27, 2012)

Red Sonja said:


> Bunny, I think you are forgetting an important factor and that is ...
> 
> *When you cheat you are also cheating on your children, you are devastating their lives, ruining their sense of security and safety and modeling morally reprehensible behavior to them.*
> 
> JMHO


So what if you cheat and don't have kids.... better? Or what if you beat their mom/dad in front of them, better still? 

As parents, in the moment, I think we do the best that we can. My childhood included abuse and infidelity, and if I had to put a wager on one that was more damaging to me as a child and into my adulthood, my money would be on the abuse. Hands down. It is no surprise that both my sister and myself have been in abusive relationships. 

JMHO


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Pepper123 said:


> So what if you cheat and don't have kids.... better? Or what if you beat their mom/dad in front of them, better still?
> 
> As parents, in the moment, I think we do the best that we can. My childhood included abuse and infidelity, and if I had to put a wager on one that was more damaging to me as a child and into my adulthood, my money would be on the abuse. Hands down, no contest.
> 
> JMHO


The question posed was not whether infidelity or abuse were worse on a child or spouse or does one justify the other. The question posed was who is responsible for cheating. The answer is the cheater, 100%. They made the decision and followed through with it. Were there other mitigating circumstances in the marriage leading up to the infidelity? Yep, there always are, as no one has a perfect marriage, but that doesn't excuse the fact that a cheater chose to cheat and therefor is responsible solely for their actions 100% (just as the abuser is responsible for theirs). Sorry you were damaged as a child, but how each reacts to the actions of their childhood are as different as how the BS reacts to the infidelity of their WS. No two are going to react the same way and be predictable, as we all are different humans. It still doesn't make infidelity correct or a valid choice (it never is the correct answer)!


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## jay1365 (May 22, 2013)

Usually both, unless dealing with a serial cheater.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

russell28 said:


> )... It changed the way I load dishes, and my life.


lol... Glad I could make your marriage a happy one! I could go on too because it is such a beautifully executed attack.

My defense; The fork tines, at a certain angle, fall through the bottom of the basket thus jamming the rotator (and starting the “we have no clean dishes because of you” argument). Her response can either be a simple; No they don’t, or her preferred. “What a cheap dishwasher. If we had a good one, that wouldn’t happen” (implying I’m too cheap to buy her a new one (expanding nicely into what a pos house we have (which I didn’t want, she did))). 

It also expands brilliantly into other aspects: “If you’d only listen to me, there wouldn’t be an unsafe environment for the kids!” Thus by not listening and doing it, I am also a bad father and there must be some deeper darker sinister reason I wouldn’t do this little thing. Might as well be running around stabbing the kids with the forks. 

But back on track for her. Because I don’t listen, I hate her, don’t respect her, etc. “You only think about yourself!” Her therapist and friends also agreed I must be a narcissist and my poor, poor wife must tolerate this or leave me. How lovely to be diagnosed by someone who’s never seen or talked with me and just heard my wife’s version. As funny is this ‘parrot’ therapist also didn’t give her any tools for how to deal with a real narcissist (which are non-confrontational in their approach and rely on the ‘can you help me with my problem?’ type approaches). 

The funny.... This actually did come up early in our MC sessions. About 3 months later as the MC was going through magnified perception and looking for flaws, and the damage it does to marriages, he talked about one couple he was treating and gave a ‘dishwasher story’ ... I reminded him that was us


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Another reason to place the forks up, so they stay nice and straight for when you want to run around stabbing the kids with them. Her way renders them useless as a weapon as they are too busy being bent around the bottom sprayer!! (LOL just kidding to those that think this was a real solution).


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## awake1 (Jan 29, 2013)

When someone chooses to cheat it immediately ceases the possibility of the cleanest possible resolution to marital problems. 
It almost, by default removes the chance of the soon to be BS from addressing any concern. 

Even aside from the moral/emotional issues, it also opens the possibility of physical harm by way of STDs. 

Carelessly passing certain STDs in many places is considered a felony. 

If for nothing else than the possibility of manslaughter, cheating automatically makes the Bs the victim no matter their personal failings.


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

All utensils should be put in the dishwasher handles down and mixed variety to avoid nesting. (One spoon could "spoon" another spoon and then both don't get clean if you will LOL).

It does a better job at cleaning. My wife and I had this little debate (I go by the manual, she goes by "I don't want to stab myself"). We came to an agreement, she'd unload when she loaded and I'd unload when I loaded. I don't stab myself...I pull the baskets out and put them in an easy to access spot. She would complain about things not getting as clean as they should.

Eventually she conceded that I am the dishwasher loading guru. (This also stems from loading the top drawer but I digress).


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

Oh crap, I just realized my sex rank just dropped because I do dishes.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

I have a dishwasher with a utensil "tray" at the very top (and ot a basket on the bottom, so all lay out and get nice and clean. No stabbing or chance of touching each other so they don't get clean.:smthumbup::smthumbup:

Crap. Did I just admit I do the dishes too?? No wait the kids load the dishwasher. Yeah, that's the ticket!


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

So back full circle. Her adultery is very closely linked with her perceptions about the marriage and how she deals with things. "You made me _(insert random feeling)___. The blame is not mine!" is the basis of how she deals with everything then everything she thinks or witnesses is just warped to 'prove' to herself she is not wrong. It's the victim mentality. Doesn't matter how insane her ideas got, just that those ideas supported what she wanted to believe. "It's not my fault!" <=== That is what is most important to her own self-esteem. Zero ownership when she can loosely blame someone or something else.. 

Me telling her she can’t go out drinking with friends and come home until 3am... it’s just me being controlling. Wanting sex with her... again, that’s all I care about and value. Doing anything nice.... just an attempt to manipulate her into giving sex or giving me something. So easy to just interpret whatever I did as something deeper and sinister. None of it had an ounce of reflection whether or not she was doing anything wrong because it’s about justifying why she isn’t to blame or wrong about any of it.

So were they really marriage problems or just something made up in her head and morphed until she could find a culprit? 50/50 was not her approach or remotely her thoughts. I was responsible for everything wrong everywhere in the world in her head. No therapist could convince her otherwise. It was just so easy to interpret things however she wanted. 

I was finally able to get her to see her responsibility in all this.... It was not easy or nice and I somewhat hate/love myself for having to kill the boyscout. But the past...... 50/50 isn’t right. Do not pretend it remotely works like that. Maybe, if she had a healthy perception and owned her share it would have been 50/50. But she didn’t. 

I retreated, hid, and accepted her words like it was all my fault.... That just made things worse and more cruel because the failures became complete apathy to even try to do anything. Better to do nothing at all than try and be told you failed again. I’m sure she can say that is a fault in our marriage. She is right, I am changing particularly now that she must verbally acknowledge what I am doing right and not just what I’m doing wrong (as well as her having to admit when she is wrong).


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Wow, Racer, I would say you married my WW, except that I am still married to her for the time being.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Squeakr said:


> Wow, Racer, I would say you married my WW, except that I am still married to her for the time being.


lol... I'm still married to mine. Given her past though, wouldn't be entirely shocked to find out she had another husband... afterall, she did have 2 boyfriends and me at the same time all providing her 'something' to fill separate needs she 'deserved' to have: I was security and public image, other was sexual and exotic and 'fun', the other was emotional support and best buddy who had her back and could always cheer her up. 

She never considered that she should be doing this stuff for herself or could find it in a single person 'if only' she treated them in a manner that coincided with how she wanted to be treated. It's why I "mirror" now.


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## Pepper123 (Nov 27, 2012)

Squeakr said:


> The question posed was not whether infidelity or abuse were worse on a child or spouse or does one justify the other. The question posed was who is responsible for cheating. The answer is the cheater, 100%. They made the decision and followed through with it.


I get that... Really I do. I just think that when you are amidst those circumstances you really become mentally ill to a point that you do things that you normally wouldn't... Maybe that sounds like an excuse, maybe it sounds like a cop out. Either way, I fully agree that we are all 100% accountable for our actions. 

No one makes us feel, do, say, etc. anything that we don't want to.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Bunny, my wife had an affair. I was devastated. 

We rugswept it and I started to self-medicate with alcohol.

Eventually I accidentally stumbled into what I realise was a stupid revenge affair.

I confessed to my wife. She forgave me.

Who did I blame for my revenge affair? Me.Just me. Not her.


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## nuclearnightmare (May 15, 2013)

Pepper123 said:


> I get that... Really I do. I just think that when you are amidst those circumstances you really become mentally ill to a point that you do things that you normally wouldn't... Maybe that sounds like an excuse, maybe it sounds like a cop out. Either way, I fully agree that we are all 100% accountable for our actions.
> 
> No one makes us feel, do, say, etc. anything that we don't want to.


well, physical abuse of a spouse is a serious form of humiliation, aside from injuries inflicted. Cheating on a spouse also humiliates. I think both should be considered deal-breakers for the marriage. so if one type of humiliation is truly in response to another kind, I'd probably assess things a bit differently, yes.


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## maincourse99 (Aug 15, 2012)

That's not cheating that is rape. A completely different scenario and definitely not comparable, as you are not choosing to cheat and have sex with that person, you are choosing self preservation and to not be killed


Obviously. I was exaggerating in order to make a point. Jeez


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

maincourse99 said:


> That's not cheating that is rape. A completely different scenario and definitely not comparable, as you are not choosing to cheat and have sex with that person, you are choosing self preservation and to not be killed
> 
> 
> Obviously. I was exaggerating in order to make a point. Jeez


It is hard to tell when some are joking and some are dead serious. The people on this board can be quite serious about issues and when you have had people you know raped and abused (I have for the record), then things like rape can bring up bad feelings especially when talked about jokingly. It really is no joking matter. Sorry if I offend on this viewpoint, but it really is life devastating for those who've experienced it. Just like infidelity. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bunny23 (May 19, 2011)

Well I guess I wonder if when we talk about abusive relationships...

When does that relationship end? When does the abuser stop being your husband? And when does a friendship with someone cross over to EA?

And someone asked where they saw the physical abuse compared to cheating.. it was on a forum here and I believe the man cheated first AND was an abuser. The woman had a brief affair and it was blown of out proportion and EQUAL.

I also wonder if an abuser is really in a marriage? To me they are not.. all they are is in a one sided relationship because THEY control everything (I would almost bet most abusers cheat on the woman but she will be to scared to even look for clues)

Like I said, yes cheating is HORRIBLE and I'm not saying excusable.. and if someone was in an abusive relationship I would not encourage it.. simply because you would probably end up with an abuser AGAIN or not think rationally about your next steps.

For people saying "just leave" .. abusive relationships are VERY complicated. It's the same as finding out your spouse cheated and just saying- LEAVE.
I am 1 year + separation and to this day I feel GUILT/SHAME over standing up for myself or filing OP etc.

Not everything is black and white.. 


Thought I would bring this up for debate because I think we all have some things to learn about how others feel/behave


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## bunny23 (May 19, 2011)

Dad&Hubby said:


> You can't control what your spouse does. You can only control what you do and what you'll accept. For some people, cheating is a grey area, it's acceptable given the "right circumstances" and for others, it's not.
> 
> I'm someone who says cheating isn't acceptable, ever. If my wife was the WORST wife in the world...picture ever possible thing she could do poorly to me. I still wouldn't cheat. I'd divorce her. To me, cheating doesn't reflect poorly on the BS, it reflects on the wayward. I would be cheating my own integrity and personal code. I would be saying my word means nothing. I promised that as long as I'm in this marriage, I would be faithful.
> 
> Now if my spouse breaks their promises, it doesn't allow me to break mine, this isn't tit for tat. I can choose to stay and see if they can fix their side, or I can leave. There's no "kinda married". Cheating is being "kinda married".


Right but see you are thinking RATIONALLY.

There are probably hundreds of things I did while in the abusive relationship that I would never have done, or thought etc. I would almost describe it as being in a "depressed fog"

And if you met or knew me it would be hard for you to understand how someone like me could get in a relationship like this and not see the red flags.

When abuse happens it usually starts small. I quit a career that I worked 10 years + to build, lost all my self-esteem and had panic attacks. I still freak out when I see my stbx calls or texts me, once I almost crashed my car because he was yelling at me over a $50 bill.

I drive and when I see a similar car to his I can't breathe.

It's all irrational.

As I said in my other post.. I think that when you start degrading/abusing someone daily that piece of paper/commitment means nothing to YOU- the abuser.

It makes the abused spouse vulnerable to other abusers (that's why it's not a good idea to find a new partner) or desperately try to cling on to someone/something that isn't this spouse.

A lot of the times the person has been isolated from friends, family and any finances. 

It's really crap place to be.. and usually once you realize you are living with someone who abuses you- it's too late or you question your own sanity or if you were overreacting.

I think this is very hard to understand unless you have lived through it.. I certainly never thought I would get it either.


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## nogutsnoglory (Jan 17, 2013)

bunny23 said:


> BTW I have noticed this pattern of making people (on TAM) who cheated responsible for EVERYTHING in the relationship.
> 
> I even noticed a post where PHYSICAL ABUSE of a spouse for YEARS didn't matter/was equal to a one night stand aka cheating.
> 
> ...



No, don't agree. Cheating is such utter betrayal, on so many levels that it heavily trumps most any destruction previous in a marriage and displays IMO the most selfish behavior that exists. sure there are some extreme examples to argue it was almost deserved but that is not the normal scenario. People who do this to those that are at home waiting for them to be with them, the kids, or love them as they promised in their wedding vows are ruined emotionally and otherwise have their self worth stripped of them for quite some time. I have never understood R because of this. I am happy for those that find the happiness through R, I just would have no part in it. One life to live IMO. Once I learn someone is not to be trusted, they are gone from my life. No though, I think they deserve all the ridicule they receive, and ultimately they deserve the blame for causing irreversible damage to the relationship.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

Every case should be judged on its own merits (if merits is the right word). My argument has never been that cheating is justified. My argument is the extent of blame borne by the cheater. The act itself is 100% on the cheater, but the demise of the marriage bond, lowering of romantic interest, loss of respect, etc., that oftentimes precedes the affair* may be caused to a much greater degree by one spouse than the other.
Accordingly, if a man behaves in a manner to cause a reasonable woman to lose interest/respect, the possibility of her cheating increases. Whether this phenomenon is viewed as him being partially the blame for the affair depends on the person evaluating it. 

*My observation is that a woman who has a high romantic interest and respect for her man will not cheat on him. There are exceptions but I'm not aware of any.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Racer said:


> So back full circle. Her adultery is very closely linked with her perceptions about the marriage and how she deals with things. "You made me _(insert random feeling)___. The blame is not mine!" is the basis of how she deals with everything then everything she thinks or witnesses is just warped to 'prove' to herself she is not wrong. It's the victim mentality. Doesn't matter how insane her ideas got, just that those ideas supported what she wanted to believe. "It's not my fault!" <=== That is what is most important to her own self-esteem. Zero ownership when she can loosely blame someone or something else..
> 
> Me telling her she can’t go out drinking with friends and come home until 3am... it’s just me being controlling. Wanting sex with her... again, that’s all I care about and value. Doing anything nice.... just an attempt to manipulate her into giving sex or giving me something. So easy to just interpret whatever I did as something deeper and sinister. None of it had an ounce of reflection whether or not she was doing anything wrong because it’s about justifying why she isn’t to blame or wrong about any of it.
> 
> ...


I was controlling because I wanted my wife to say goodbye when she left, perhaps give me a kiss... and not just leave without saying anything... and there was that thing where I wanted her to say goodnight before she went to bed, or basically anything to let me know that when she went upstairs, she wasn't coming back down, she was actually going to sleep with no mention... I was a control freak.


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## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

You have to take internet message boards with a grain of salt. People are highly emotional and stir up a mob mentality.

When dealing with who's at fault for infidelity the answer is somewhere in between TAM and Cheater forums.

It's naive to believe that a cheater is always at fault. There are circumstances where a spouse is so detached and neglectful, and the other spouse is "trapped" and cheats.

Most on TAM will say there is always a choice to leave or just not cheat. The world doesn't work that way though. There are millions of colours in the spectrum between black and white.


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

bunny23 said:


> Right but see you are thinking RATIONALLY.
> 
> There are probably hundreds of things I did while in the abusive relationship that I would never have done, or thought etc. I would almost describe it as being in a "depressed fog"
> 
> ...


I get it bunny, I know you can do stupid things when you're in a relationship with an abuser. Your history and mine aren't as different as you think. My exW fit every category of someone who was emotionally abusive and financially abusive even though I made the money and she was a SAHM, it was the classic taking and giving of 100% control, and she was GREAT at it. And after having layer upon layer stripped away from me, I finally looked in the mirror one day and saw what I had become. Divorce proceedings started within 1 month. I never cheated, she did which I found out later. I hadn't had sex in a year and a half, and never cheated. I didn't get into an EA with anyone. I still held onto my integrity, even if I had lost so many other things.

I made mistakes during that marriage with my family etc. and I never said 'well exW did xyz, etc. etc.". I took ownership. I say "I gave up control." "I let her do xyz" because that's the truth. There's no valid excuse for cheating, ever. There are circumstances that can lead someone who wouldn't normally cheat to consider cheating, but the actual act is all on the person.

There's a big difference of understanding circumstances and actually EXCUSING infidelity. There's never an excuse for it.


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

ThePheonix said:


> Every case should be judged on its own merits (if merits is the right word). My argument has never been that cheating is justified. *My argument is the extent of blame borne by the cheater. The act itself is 100% on the cheater, but the demise of the marriage bond, lowering of romantic interest, loss of respect, etc., that oftentimes precedes the affair* may be caused to a much greater degree by one spouse than the other.*
> Accordingly, if a man behaves in a manner to cause a reasonable woman to lose interest/respect, the possibility of her cheating increases. Whether this phenomenon is viewed as him being partially the blame for the affair depends on the person evaluating it.
> 
> *My observation is that a woman who has a high romantic interest and respect for her man will not cheat on him. There are exceptions but I'm not aware of any.


I completely get where you're coming from. I just think making the connection of having a marriage break down and having an affair is like an overweight person saying

"Yes I made and ate a cake BECAUSE I went to the grocery store and bought eggs, milk and flour"

Don't take this as me saying you're wrong Phoenix, because you're not. I'm just saying there's still a gap between "Broken Marriage" and "Affair". That gap still needs a bridge built across it and the cheater is the bridge builder. (And yes, I see you're saying that.)

I know what you're saying, I just think there are a lot of people who still see a broken marriage as a justification for an affair (again, not you, but your argument could be construed by someone else that way hence why I feel the need to address it).


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

ThePheonix said:


> Every case should be judged on its own merits (if merits is the right word). My argument has never been that cheating is justified. My argument is the extent of blame borne by the cheater. The act itself is 100% on the cheater, but the demise of the marriage bond, lowering of romantic interest, loss of respect, etc., that oftentimes precedes the affair* may be caused to a much greater degree by one spouse than the other.
> Accordingly, if a man behaves in a manner to cause a reasonable woman to lose interest/respect, the possibility of her cheating increases. Whether this phenomenon is viewed as him being partially the blame for the affair depends on the person evaluating it.
> 
> *My observation is that a woman who has a high romantic interest and respect for her man will not cheat on him. There are exceptions but I'm not aware of any.


Cheating is a choice. If it isn't, then a rape has occured.

If the person evaluates cheating as justified to any extent, that is akin to saying somebody has been a "bit murdered". You can't do that, you either cheat, or you don't.

As the saying goes, I would agree with your post, but then we would both be wrong.

Edit: I just wanted to tell you how incredibly arrogant, judgemental, insulting and pompous your last statement appears to be: _"*My observation is that a woman who has a high romantic interest and respect for her man will not cheat on him. There are exceptions but I'm not aware of any."_


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## missthelove2013 (Sep 23, 2013)

the cheater...
the last person I blame is the om/ow...if not them, it would have been someone else...

sure the spouse has something to do with it...maybe a tiny bit, maybe a lot...but imo if someone wants to cheat, they WILL FIND a fault in their spouse that will justify it...we ALL have faults...no one is perfect


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

sinnister said:


> You have to take internet message boards with a grain of salt. People are highly emotional and stir up a mob mentality.
> 
> When dealing with who's at fault for infidelity the answer is somewhere in between TAM and Cheater forums.
> 
> ...


It's absurd to say the person that chooses to cheat isn't always at fault, because they're the one that chose to cheat.. regardless of who's detached, or who's neglectful, or who's trapped... it was a decision that was made without input from the BS.

When faced with this question:
Do I cheat? If you answer yes, then you are to blame. If you find out your spouse has been cheating on you, and you were never asked if it would be okay for them to cheat. You are not to blame.

It doesn't get more black and white than that.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Racer said:


> lol... Glad I could make your marriage a happy one! I could go on too because it is such a beautifully executed attack.
> 
> My defense; The fork tines, at a certain angle, fall through the bottom of the basket thus jamming the rotator (and starting the “we have no clean dishes because of you” argument). Her response can either be a simple; No they don’t, or her preferred. “What a cheap dishwasher. If we had a good one, that wouldn’t happen” (implying I’m too cheap to buy her a new one (expanding nicely into what a pos house we have (which I didn’t want, she did))).
> 
> ...


I have dishwasher stories and then some. You wouldn't believe them so I won't try. I'll join the others here who challenge your premise. I will go so far as to say that in many cases the spouse who decides they deserve an affair as an escape was to start and for years on end the primary abuser in the marriage.

Edit or editor's note: If it wasn't clear, that was a response to OP and her original post, citing Racer only for support.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Ultimately, the cheater, of course.

Evolution: for making humans naturally promiscuous to varying degrees.

Culture and Religion: for creating the idealized concept of monogamy that is contrary to human nature, and therefore difficult to achieve.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Harken Banks said:


> I have dishwasher stories and then some. You wouldn't believe them so I won't try. I'll join the others here who challenge your premise. I will go so far as to say that in many cases the spouse who decides they deserve an affair as an escape was to start and for years on end the primary abuser in the marriage.
> 
> Edit or editor's note: If it wasn't clear, that was a response to OP and her original post, citing Racer only for support.


This is true in my case also.. for example, I would get jealous of my wife, because I'm a jealous type of person, but I never told her what clothes to wear, or to not talk to males etc.. I just was bothered by it. Turns out, my wife would flirt and wear risque clothing to MAKE me jealous, and when I'd not do anything about the fact that she was making me jealous (because I didn't want to be a jerk and be jealous..), she'd take it as I didn't care.... So if I'm jealous, I'm an ahole for being jealous, and if I'm not jealous, then I don't love her... controlling, or neglecting.. pick one, and that's the reason she'd use to cheat. Lose lose situation for the soon to be BS. Add in a mid life crisis, getting older, wrinkled, kids no longer needing you, and an OM that tells you 'you deserve better' every day... and a touch of strong role models that were all cheaters, and poof.

So I'll give a little blame to old age, cheating parents and the OM/W too.. and as the above mentions, hollywood and the church.


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## maincourse99 (Aug 15, 2012)

_Every case should be judged on its own merits (if merits is the right word). My argument has never been that cheating is justified. My argument is the extent of blame borne by the cheater. The act itself is 100% on the cheater, but the demise of the marriage bond, lowering of romantic interest, loss of respect, etc., that oftentimes precedes the affair* may be caused to a much greater degree by one spouse than the other.
Accordingly, if a man behaves in a manner to cause a reasonable woman to lose interest/respect, the possibility of her cheating increases. Whether this phenomenon is viewed as him being partially the blame for the affair depends on the person evaluating it. 

*My observation is that a woman who has a high romantic interest and respect for her man will not cheat on him. There are exceptions but I'm not aware of any_

One thing to keep in mind is that there are many situations where the BS has done all that an imperfect person can be expected to do to keep the marriage on good footing and the other person still cheats.

Fact is, there are many selfish people who simply enjoy the excitement and thrill of cheating. Desire for sexual variety, validation, narcissism, entitlement and various personality disorders may factor in too. Many BS are blindsided because they were unable to detect any dissatisfaction on the part of the WS, everything seemed fine including a robust sex life.

So many WS simply have poor boundaries with the opposite sex and when faced with temptation, give in. How about this: there are bad people. 

I find it strange when posters on here say "cheating is 100% on the cheater", then in the next breath imply that the BS contributed to the cheating. 

IMO, cheating is 100% on the cheater because when they became dissatisfied with the marriage of just wanted to have sex with other people, they acted cowardly and cheated instead of trying to fix things or divorce and then scr*w around.


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## maincourse99 (Aug 15, 2012)

_It's naive to believe that a cheater is always at fault. There are circumstances where a spouse is so detached and neglectful, and the other spouse is "trapped" and cheats.

Most on TAM will say there is always a choice to leave or just not cheat. The world doesn't work that way though. There are millions of colours in the spectrum between black and white_

Trapped? We're never trapped in a marriage. Money? Children? Locked in the basement? There's always a way to leave. They call it either separation or divorce if memory serves me.


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## maincourse99 (Aug 15, 2012)

_It is hard to tell when some are joking and some are dead serious. The people on this board can be quite serious about issues and when you have had people you know raped and abused (I have for the record), then things like rape can bring up bad feelings especially when talked about jokingly. It really is no joking matter. Sorry if I offend on this viewpoint, but it really is life devastating for those who've experienced it. Just like infidelity. _

Sorry you went through that, but you had a hard time telling if I was joking or serious? Your point is well taken, and again I apologize for causing you hurt.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

Chris989 said:


> If the person evaluates cheating as justified to any extent, that is akin to saying somebody has been a "bit murdered". You can't do that, you either cheat, or you don't.
> 
> Edit: I just wanted to tell you how incredibly arrogant, judgemental, insulting and pompous your last statement appears to be: _"*My observation is that a woman who has a high romantic interest and respect for her man will not cheat on him. There are exceptions but I'm not aware of any."_


You would have to agree that, as judged by the courts, there are varying degrees of murder (as with all torts and crimes) although the victim is just as dead. A man "murdered" by his wife who he constantly and continuously physically abused is not judged as harshly a murder to collect life insurance. In same principles goes to affairs (in my view)

In regard to being judgmental and pompous, I am stating my observation from my experience. Being a male, I view it from a male perspective. The same would apply to females. Sorry if it sounds condescending .


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

russell28 said:


> I was controlling because I wanted my wife to say goodbye when she left, perhaps give me a kiss... and not just leave without saying anything... and there was that thing where I wanted her to say goodnight before she went to bed, or basically anything to let me know that when she went upstairs, she wasn't coming back down, she was actually going to sleep with no mention... I was a control freak.


I still fight with those courtesy things too. The fine line between controlling or not is in the approach. I simply tell my wife where my head and emotions go when she does those things even if totally irrational. Just present her the facts of how my mind ticks. I let her choose whether or not she will address it or not. She can not choose though how I should react. So if she doesn’t like my reaction, she needs to modify, help me see it different, or try another approach. 



bunny23 said:


> It makes the abused spouse vulnerable to other abusers (that's why it's not a good idea to find a new partner) or desperately try to cling on to someone/something that isn't this spouse.


It’s one reason I stay focused on the dynamics within the marriage after the “who, what, when, where, why” stuff of the affair has been explored.. Like my dishwasher stuff, a pattern gets established probably long before the adultery when blame and the load is put on one person. Both people ‘react’ to this as individuals rather than working together. So after being treated like that for years, I too had little to no self-esteem, was weak, etc. I know that if a woman would have shown me any kindness, it really would have sucked me in. In my case though, I found it in online gaming. In the gaming world, I became well-known, and people wanted to be like me. Actually recruited into a paid-to-play group. Regardless, one of the things I had to sort out and work on was how to find that internally without relying on others to set my worth.

And my wife. A good chunk of her ‘why’ started before me. A violent rape victim that never sought help or reported it. That led to a common issue of ‘needing to control’ as well as never allowing herself to have faults. Added to that is a ‘commodity’ based value placed on sex. And as crazy, doing the complete opposite things to ‘test herself’ so she could prove she could handle it. So she put herself in situations all the time with the false belief that she was in control and too smart to fall in. And when she did, she’d simply make herself believe it was what the right choice was so she wouldn’t have to admit failure or that she had issues. Always someone else’s fault. That is how she copes with failures. (And a plethora of other really bad approaches to address insecurities and fears). 

It’s such a problem when who you see in the mirror is just who you want to see rather than who you are. My wife liked to see a intelligent, witty, secure, strong attractive woman. She was really a scared little girl mad at life because it didn’t align with what she wanted to see or how she believed it should be; Life wasn’t cooperating or allowing her to control it like that. 

There was no effort made to be who she wanted to be. The effort instead was placed on the various masks she wore. Even after DD, she spent her efforts patching the mask rather than really looking at the woman behind it. Trying so hard to get everyone to believe she was a good wife because that’s what she wanted to be when the facts and actions and thoughts were something else entirely; She just tried to hide all that behind the mask. I took a lot to strip enough of it away that she was faced with just her own reflection in the mirror. It was nothing like she wanted to be.


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## Vanguard (Jul 27, 2011)

Abuse is a funny word, because a lot of people equate "abuse" with "anything that doesn't make me really happy." My wife accused me of abuse after she left, and I have never raised my hand against her, only to defend her. I've never even shoved her. The most violent it ever got was when we'd tickle each other and we'd be howling in laughter. 

But a cheater will not only lie, but bend reality around themselves, lying to themselves about what has transpired. Nothing excuses cheating. Abuse, loneliness, boredom... there is no garrison to defend such actions. 

As I mentioned cheaters aren't going to be honest about abuse anyhow. 

I'm sorry, I just have to lol at all this. Abuse. If you compliment someone on their attractiveness you're abusive. If you tell her no, I'm not going to spend that much money on "X" you're abusive. If you tell her she's distant, cold and uncaring and you want to know why you're abusive. 

Most of the abuse I see comes from people who interpret everything in _light of abuse_.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

ThePheonix said:


> ...but the demise of the marriage bond, lowering of romantic interest, loss of respect, etc., that oftentimes precedes the affair* may be caused to a much greater degree by one spouse than the other.


Or not.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

sinnister said:


> You have to take internet message boards with a grain of salt. People are highly emotional and stir up a mob mentality.
> 
> When dealing with who's at fault for infidelity the answer is somewhere in between TAM and Cheater forums.
> 
> ...


How do I say this tactfully...WRONG.

A cheater is always at fault for cheating. That's why they're called the "cheater".

You just said that cheating can be justifiable. It is NEVER justifiable.

And the world works that way - if you choose to make it work that way.

Free will. We all have it.


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## hookares (Dec 7, 2011)

At my former residence it was broadcast very loudly by my ex that her cheating was ALL my fault simply because of my lack of physical attractiveness as far as she was concerned. There was never any abuse by me, at all. I don't know how one might term her withholding sex from me all the while freely offering it to others. Or, if one might consider it "abuse" that she let me finance the two children she bore from having sex with nameless individuals.
Surprisingly, I haven't had any of the women I have dated mention my lack of attributes since the split, but that may not take place until after some commitment sometime in some other lifetime.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

ThePheonix said:


> Accordingly, if a man behaves in a manner to cause a reasonable woman to lose interest/respect, the possibility of her cheating increases. .


I do not agree with this. I was married for 9 years to a man who TRIED to control me and who TRIED to be abusive. He failed. I lost interest/respect and love for him, but I _never_ considered[/I] cheating as an option. It wasn't something that ever crossed my mind as a possibility. My choices were, I either stay with him and try to work it out, or...I leave. I chose the latter. 

I would think that if woman loses interest or respect for the man she's with, cheating isn't going to cause her to _gain_ any respect for HIM, nor would she gain respect for herself. 

Vega


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

ThePheonix said:


> Accordingly, if a man behaves in a manner to cause a reasonable woman to lose interest/respect, the possibility of her cheating increases.


Of course, you can quote verifiable statistics to back this contention, can't you?


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## nuclearnightmare (May 15, 2013)

ThePheonix said:


> You would have to agree that, as judged by the courts, there are varying degrees of murder (as with all torts and crimes) although the victim is just as dead. A man "murdered" by his wife who he constantly and continuously physically abused is not judged as harshly a murder to collect life insurance. In same principles goes to affairs (in my view)
> 
> In regard to being judgmental and pompous, I am stating my observation from my experience. Being a male, I view it from a male perspective. The same would apply to females. Sorry if it sounds condescending .


The 'murder under the law' analogy is a pretty good one. Ultimately though society places all the responsibility on the offender. The punishment might vary, but the parents of the murderer are not sentenced. Nor other members of a gang they joined when they were 14 etc. People that generally influenced them negatively are not held responsible.

That's how the bs should view the WS in most cases IMO. DON't worry about how you may have "influenced" them to do what they did. Just sentence them. And I think in most cases the just punishment is divorce.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

maincourse99 said:


> _It is hard to tell when some are joking and some are dead serious. The people on this board can be quite serious about issues and when you have had people you know raped and abused (I have for the record), then things like rape can bring up bad feelings especially when talked about jokingly. It really is no joking matter. Sorry if I offend on this viewpoint, but it really is life devastating for those who've experienced it. Just like infidelity. _
> 
> Sorry you went through that, but you had a hard time telling if I was joking or serious? Your point is well taken, and again I apologize for causing you hurt.


Thanks. No harm no foul. I used to take things lightly and give people the benefit of the doubt but my WW seems to have crushed my belief and trust in fellow man to do the right thing, so now I take things at face value. I recently had a discussion with a fellow member that thought murder, death camp involvement, and possibly rape depending on the situation were the only things bad enough to really merit punishment from society. He thought infidelity was just something that happens and the BS should just forget and move on as it was not worth it. Of course he had never experienced the hurt of infidelity in his marriage and had been a WS, so I tried to take it with a grain of salt but his insinuations were brash, unacceptable and he thought completely justified. I have learned that some people have completely different and on some cases no morals. This makes it hard to tell when some people are joking or not (as some people believe that rape is sometimes the fault of the victim due to actions, dress, or expectations of the other party. I say it is never right or justified and never the victims fault. Thanks for the clarification and I just wanted to explain myself a little more nothing against you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## nuclearnightmare (May 15, 2013)

Vega said:


> I do not agree with this. I was married for 9 years to a man who TRIED to control me and who TRIED to be abusive. He failed. I lost interest/respect and love for him, but I _never_ considered[/I] cheating as an option. It wasn't something that ever crossed my mind as a possibility. My choices were, I either stay with him and try to work it out, or...I leave. I chose the latter.
> 
> I would think that if woman loses interest or respect for the man she's with, cheating isn't going to cause her to _gain_ any respect for HIM, nor would she gain respect for herself.
> 
> Vega


:iagree: 
In addition it is very hard to hold the romantic interest of a self entitled, narcissistic individual. If such a person cheats on you, forgiveness is key -- to forgive yourself for not detecting these qualities in them before you married them


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

ThePheonix said:


> You would have to agree that, as judged by the courts, there are varying degrees of murder (as with all torts and crimes) although the victim is just as dead. A man "murdered" by his wife who he constantly and continuously physically abused is not judged as harshly a murder to collect life insurance. In same principles goes to affairs (in my view)
> 
> In regard to being judgmental and pompous, I am stating my observation from my experience. Being a male, I view it from a male perspective. The same would apply to females. Sorry if it sounds condescending .


I disagree with your points. For one the courts don't judge the murderer, they just decide whether they are guilty of the crime they have been accused due to supporting evidence presented. It is not a matter of judgement, it is a matter of does the evidence presented fully without a reasonable doubt support the charges that have been claimed and filed against the accused. By popular opinion if courts judged, then OJ would have been found guilty of the criminal offenses he was charged with. 

I also hate when someone claims something from the gender point of view. Not all people within a gender share the same views so I hate when people claim absolutes as though it is a given. Stating facts is one thing, but stating opinions as though the entirety of the group shares your views (like it is some trait that all of that gender share) can be offensive.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

bunny23 said:


> I have noticed this pattern of making people (on TAM) who cheated responsible for EVERYTHING in the relationship.
> 
> I can see how being in a terrible place in your life can make you lose yourself and seek COMFORT somewhere.
> 
> ...


How about a big NO!

Seriously?


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

Vega said:


> I lost interest/respect and love for him, but I _never_ considered[/I] cheating as an option. It wasn't something that ever crossed my mind as a possibility. My choices were, I either stay with him and try to work it out, or...I leave. I chose the latter.
> Vega


I wasn't implying that all women choose to cheat rather than leave. In either case, interest and respect are usually gone as your case tends to indicate.



Chris989 said:


> Of course, you can quote verifiable statistics to back this contention, can't you?


Of course I can. It can be found on page 28 of Dr. Gaberdine LaRuppel's study on the causes of cheating.  I believe statements from this sources are just as reliable as sources supporting many other opinions on this subject. 



Squeakr said:


> Stating facts is one thing, but stating opinions as though the entirety of the group shares your views (like it is some trait that all of that gender share) can be offensive.


Yes it can be. I'll remember that.


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## carmen ohio (Sep 24, 2012)

ThePheonix said:


> . . . Of course I can. It can be found on page 28 of Dr. Gaberdine LaRuppel's study on the causes of cheating.  I believe statements from this sources are just as reliable as sources supporting many other opinions on this subject . . .


ThePhoenix, could you provide a citation to Dr. Gaberdine LaRuppel's study? I could find no reference to Dr. LaRuppel in web searches (Bing and Google) other than yours. Thanks.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

Carm it was a joke. There's no such person as Dr. G R that I'm aware. Like virtually all statements made on this site, mine are personal opinions and observations at best based on anecdotal evidence. Moreover, I am a professor of tax and business law and
often use, out of habit I guess,the "devil's advocate" approach to question and therefore stimulate critical thinking of one's point of view. Sometimes my approach results in what is tantamount to "roadrage" on the information super highway.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

I fail to see any confision / grey area 

You are unhappy and that persists. you get to the point where you find yourself being attracted to other people.

That's the point to talk about it and then if no better and you still feel there's no future with the present man / woman 

LEAVE 

Then you can shag who ever you want - till the cows come home

If you CHOOSE to stay in the marriage and completely destroy your kids husband /wife and other families - your excuses are NIL

ABSOLUTELY NIL

(it's so bloody annoyingly obvious)


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## Hardtohandle (Jan 10, 2013)

I have to agree in the sense I just never seen a post here that says I abused my spouse but they cheated and its worse then the abuse. And then have someone stupidly agree that cheating is worse than abuse..

I will say this no spouse should ever, ever, ever abuse someone they supposedly love.. I've arrested MANY men for doing so. I have also arrested a few women, but by far men are the culprits in this sort of crime, and yes it is a crime..

But I will tell you bluntly if you don't like my finger in your a$$ then please tell me so. But call it abuse later and then make that as your excuse to cheat on me. 

I think a bunch of this stuff is all about LACK OF COMMUNICATION.. Not talking about abuse.. Again no excuse for abuse.

But if I wanted my wife to do something I would tell her. I wouldn't wait around hoping she would do A,B or C and then get disappointed because she didn't.. I would tell her what I needed from her or requested from her regardless of what it was.. 

I would have hoped my wife could have done the same. Of course it is obvious today since she left me and the kids for another man that is not clearly the case..

I also do believe that spouse make sh1t up.. They get caught cheating and now they need to invent something so they don't look like the monsters and pieces of sh1t they really are.. It's hard to look yourself in the mirror or someone else you know, knowing the truth.. This is also why my Ex, excommunicated herself from all friends and family.. She had no real answer..

I can't tell you how many times I have seen again mostly women, have an order of protection which clearly states the man cannot come near her and then to hear from the mans mouth, things were great for the past week but she got upset with me over the recent affair, we got into this big fight and she called the cops.. I always ask the wife as well and 99.9% of the time it is exactly the same about the spouse residing in the home, but the fight is different. I always ask why they would violate their own order of protection ? Its either no answer or we were trying to work things out. 

Nutshell for some the order of protection and the arrest is their way of punishing the spouse for the affair.

My wife called me a bully a few months back.. I laughed.. She won't talk to me or our oldest son. My boys are with me because of their choice.. I can't go to her apartment because her boyfriend threatens me. I have no fear of him but I know I will lose the fight regardless. I am the cop and should know better. Plus I'm not afraid of a man a foot shorter than me, unless he is some sort of ninja, which he is not..

But I wanted to talk to my wife that I have been with for 19 years of my life in person.. Face to face.. But she wouldn't give me the time.. I had to tell her over the phone her son didn't want to live with her. I thought that was retarded to do. 

But you see how people can use words and make excuses about things that are sometimes not true..

But I will say if you are honestly, honestly being abused then you have a green light from me for the affair. But I would honestly tell you, why not get the fvck out of the abusive relationship regardless. You shouldn't need the abuse to have an excuse for the affair. Getting divorced or leaving a marriage because of abuse is good enough..

As a matter of fact I would even hold you in greater regards for leaving without the affair, because it shows me that even under those horrendous conditions, you still had the sense and dignity to get away without causing a bigger issue in the marriage..


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Your last line is the key... leave without the affair, because by having an affair, you are now also being abusive. Two wrongs, still not making a right.. and you're abusing yourself to boot.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

russell28 said:


> Two wrongs, still not making a right..


But three lefts do.


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