# Does this explain the "Fog"?



## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

I read this one an affair site and it is a comment that one WS made re: his affair...

"Brian explained his draw to the other woman as a “pulling toward.” She made him feel like a king. It was a fantasy. He was attracted to how HE was FEELING, not the other woman"

Is this what it is like when you are in the Fog?


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

Yes. My H rarely talks about what SHE had to offer but rather HOW she made him FEEL about himself. The constant ego stroke, the constant attention, constant "youre the best" or "Only you can do this" "You really get this" "youre so smart" was intoxicating to him. He never really looked at WHO she was as a person only at what she had to offer HIM. He didnt realize that at the time of course but he does in retrospect.

The stupid part- he is more educated and older than her so her telling him how smart he was (with regards to his job) is something of a joke. However, it was what he wanted/needed to hear. I think it was bc she was younger(by 7 yrs) and paying him lots of attention and admiration.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Yes...

And part of the fog is also having both the affair partner and the spouse meeting the wayward spouse's needs.


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

It seems to be the case, yes; Which is why the "crime" of infidelity is always the fault of the cheater. It's a "crime" of extreme selfishness where no one else matters to the cheater, except for the cheater himself/herself and the Affair Partner. The betrayed and the rest of the family are inconsequential to the cheater during the affair.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

The Middleman said:


> It seems to be the case, yes; Which is why the "crime" of infidelity is always the fault of the cheater. It's a "crime" of extreme selfishness where no one else matters to the cheater, except for the cheater himself/herself and the Affair Partner. The betrayed and the rest of the family are inconsequential to the cheater during the affair.


AMEN brother!


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

The "fog" is an unconscious construct of the extremely selfish WS's mind as a way to self-justify their betrayal. The fog allows them to make extremely selfish choices, betray their loved ones (including their own children), lie openly... and still feel good about themselves.

It's a defense mechanism. Without the fog, many WS would not be able to look at themselves in the mirror.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> Yes...
> 
> And part of the fog is also having both the affair partner and the spouse meeting the wayward spouse's needs.


Mmm...well, if my wife had met _some_ of these needs, I would not have been _as_ vulnerable. Granted, as a person I am vulnerable to such flattery in general, so even if my wife had been a Stepford, I have that tendency.

However, she was distinctly NOT a Stepford and my ego/validation needs were WOEFULLY unmet. So my 'love bank' was sort of empty.

This isn't an excuse, but it's still true. That doesn't make it easy for BS's to hear.

I think that sort of matches the two arcs we see on the site: there are the cold blooded 'leavers' and the warm blooded 'stayers'.

The cold blooded came from crappy marriages and didn't see much benefit to stay. This is called 'the fog'.

The warm blooded might have 'cheating tendencies' but their spouses were meeting their needs so it is their weakness, not that of BOTH parties.

Would argue the theory over a beer, and I think it's a piece of the truth, but probably not the whole thing.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

The Middleman said:


> It seems to be the case, yes; Which is why the "crime" of infidelity is always the fault of the cheater. It's a "crime" of extreme selfishness where no one else matters to the cheater, except for the cheater himself/herself and the Affair Partner. The betrayed and the rest of the family are inconsequential to the cheater during the affair.


Bollocks.


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

As angry as I get at H over his EA..at times I can kind of see how he could have been drawn to his AP.

Thinking about the emails I saw...the "Hi Handsome", the excitment she portrayed in talking with him, the fawning over him, the flirtatiousness, etc. etc. I guess a part of me could see where his ego was boosted up.


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

JCD said:


> Bollocks.


Care to explain?


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

highwood said:


> As angry as I get at H over his EA..at times I can kind of see how he could have been drawn to his AP.
> 
> Thinking about the emails I saw...the "Hi Handsome", the excitment she portrayed in talking with him, the fawning over him, the flirtatiousness, etc. etc. I guess a part of me could see where his ego was boosted up.


Just a question: Would your answer be the same if the EA became physical? Would you be as understanding?


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

The Middleman said:


> Just a question: Would your answer be the same if the EA became physical? Would you be as understanding?


Probably not...I think that would have been a deal breaker for me...plus the fact that his EA lives across the ocean (they met while he was working in Singapore) makes it easier. If this was someone that was local..I honestly do not think I would be with him..because my paranoia would have been rampant.


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

highwood said:


> Probably not...I think that would have been a deal breaker for me...


Thanks, I was just wondering. I feel the same way. A PA for me would be 99% unforgivable (only tiny exclusion for me).


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## MrMathias (Nov 19, 2012)

In my WW's case I'd say how OM made her feel was a large part of the equation. I'm sure he snagged her by being there for her when she was emotionally vulnerable during theatrical productions. She described the sex as 'good'. Being me I needed to dissect that simple word, 'good', I asked "What exactly does that even mean?" and here's what 'good' sex is for MrsM: 

"I don't know, he made me feel desired, I felt like he really wanted me". 

Nothing about the O's, positions, thoughts, his slightly misogynistic technique, etc. In fact she stated she was frustrated by his take control call all shots attitude- even then it was still 'good'-so yeah 'good' had not much to do with anything other than it fed her "I'm awesome, someone loves me" fog. 

On the flipside I know she also thought to some extent about how OM felt, her sickening love letter analyzing the meaning behind what they did and how they should move forward states pretty clearly she wanted him to be happy, fulfilled, and "not second place" to her husband and kid. So, to me, half of her bad decisions was out of some idiotic desire to fulfill this kid and make him know he was loved. 

I'll say it again, many people in affairs are in an altered state of consciousness from brain drugs. Throw in some rationalization and you have a real problem.


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## John2012 (Sep 18, 2012)

DrMathias said:


> "I don't know, he made me feel desired, I felt like he really wanted me".


DrMathias, this is exact statement my WW has given. What was the result when fog was lifted?? Does she still has the same feelings of being desired??


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

EleGirl said:


> Yes...
> 
> And part of the fog is also having both the affair partner and the spouse meeting the wayward spouse's needs.


Paraphrasing a book I read a while back, a spouse can feel a void inside them from some neglected and unmet emotional needs being missing for so long, and when the OM/OW enters the picture, they practically dance around in that void and it is euphoric. Any thought of giving up that other person immediately triggers a "I don't want to go back to that" response, thinking of the void.

I know this is not true all the time... more meant in situations where a vulnerable spouse makes a bad choice.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

Acorn said:


> Paraphrasing a book I read a while back, a spouse can feel a void inside them from some neglected and unmet emotional needs being missing for so long, and when the OM/OW enters the picture, they practically dance around in that void and it is euphoric. Any thought of giving up that other person immediately triggers a "I don't want to go back to that" response, thinking of the void.
> 
> I know this is not true all the time... more meant in situations where a vulnerable spouse makes a bad choice.


No one person can meet all of their spouse's emotional needs/wants. Its the spouse's job to discuss any voids they may be experiencing with their SO. We arent mind readers after all,eh? Also, there are other ways to have your needs met. LS' found a way now didnt they? Also, some people are so incredibly needy that it is exhausting to try and fill them up. They have such high expectations of marriage and the person they've married that its impossible to maintain that level of fulfullment. People need to be able to fill themselves up to some degree. Thats what friends are for and family. Not the girl at the office.

So, yes I believe it can be about unmet needs but that is STILL the responsiblity of the WS to speak up about adn if they have and they still arent having them met then maybe a seperation is in order but cheating and using two people to get what they need/want is total BS!


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## MrMathias (Nov 19, 2012)

John2012 said:


> DrMathias, this is exact statement my WW has given. What was the result when fog was lifted?? Does she still has the same feelings of being desired??


It's too soon for me to say if my WW's fog has lifted. Six months ago it seemed like it had, but it descended again a month later and she resumed her A. Last Dday was about six weeks ago. She seems different this time, who knows with cheaters?

I think she has to realize that yes, she had real 'feelings', she clearly felt 'desired' at the time, but not for the altruistic reasons she thought. 

I still don't 'get it' though. It might be easier if it was something so simple as 'OM was gorgeous, we got along, I wanted to have sex'. There's a lot of psychological issues, naiveté, and poor self image in my WW's case and I think she would now say there wasn't anything OM did I wouldn't have done if she hadn't closed herself off. I did a pretty monumental job of making her feel desired the entire time she was in her EA, didn't matter if it was me apparently.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

DrMathias said:


> It's too soon for me to say if my WW's fog has lifted. Six months ago it seemed like it had, but it descended again a month later and she resumed her A. Last Dday was about six weeks ago. She seems different this time, who knows with cheaters?
> 
> I think she has to realize that yes, she had real 'feelings', she clearly felt 'desired' at the time, but not for the altruistic reasons she thought.
> 
> I still don't 'get it' though. It might be easier if it was something so simple as 'OM was gorgeous, we got along, I wanted to have sex'. There's a lot of psychological issues, naiveté, and poor self image in my WW's case and I think she would now say there wasn't anything OM did I wouldn't have done if she hadn't closed herself off. I did a pretty monumental job of making her feel desired the entire time she was in her EA, didn't matter if it was me apparently.


ditto. I was busting my arse and he didnt notice bc he'd already checked out. He was comparing me to OW and no matter what I did, it wasnt good enough. I wasnt shoveling the amount of BS she was and so reality wasnt enough at the time. I did not neglect him. I did not refuse him. I did praise him and give him encouragement but it fell on deaf ears bc he shut me out because his ego had become such an insatiable beast that it was impossible for me to compete with her 10hr/day- 5day/week efforts to build him into a God. So incredibly frustrating! Hard to keep that pace when you have kids and reality to deal with.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

highwood said:


> I read this one an affair site and it is a comment that one WS made re: his affair...
> 
> "Brian explained his draw to the other woman as a “pulling toward.” She made him feel like a king. It was a fantasy. He was attracted to how HE was FEELING, not the other woman"
> 
> ...


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## AnnieAsh (Aug 22, 2012)

canttrustu said:


> No one person can meet all of their spouse's emotional needs/wants. Its the spouse's job to discuss any voids they may be experiencing with their SO. We arent mind readers after all,eh? Also, there are other ways to have your needs met. LS' found a way now didnt they? Also, some people are so incredibly needy that it is exhausting to try and fill them up. They have such high expectations of marriage and the person they've married that its impossible to maintain that level of fulfullment. People need to be able to fill themselves up to some degree. Thats what friends are for and family. Not the girl at the office.
> 
> So, yes I believe it can be about unmet needs but that is STILL the responsiblity of the WS to speak up about adn if they have and they still arent having them met then maybe a seperation is in order but cheating and using two people to get what they need/want is total BS!


I agree with some of what you said. Still, I feel like it is my husband's job to meet my needs in such a way that I am in love with him. I think I had expected butterflies and sparkles forever and I know now that it isn't feasible or even fair of me to ask that of him. But at the same time, he cannot completely ignore me and my needs then be SHOCKED when I reach the end of my rope. 

I will NEVER blame my husband for my EA. And I will NEVER tell him he was a fabulous husband at that time. Because he was not.


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## bigtone128 (May 1, 2012)

Cedarman said:


> The "fog" is an unconscious construct of the extremely selfish WS's mind as a way to self-justify their betrayal. The fog allows them to make extremely selfish choices, betray their loved ones (including their own children), lie openly... and still feel good about themselves.
> 
> It's a defense mechanism. Without the fog, many WS would not be able to look at themselves in the mirror.


I agree but does the fog ever go away and do they see what they did then? Is there a "hitting bottom" point?


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

AnnieAsh said:


> I agree with some of what you said. Still, I feel like it is my husband's job to meet my needs in such a way that I am in love with him. I think I had expected butterflies and sparkles forever and I know now that it isn't feasible or even fair of me to ask that of him. But at the same time, he cannot completely ignore me and my needs then be SHOCKED when I reach the end of my rope.
> 
> I will NEVER blame my husband for my EA. And I will NEVER tell him he was a fabulous husband at that time. Because he was not.


I didnt say it was not his job to meet your needs. I said NO one can meet ALL of your needs. Its impossible and frankly unhealthy. 

And yes, he can be shocked if the end of your rope includes you becoming a cheater. There are other options. Counseling. Divorce. Separation. Lots of options. There is NO excuse for cheating.

And it sounds to me like you are IN FACT blaming him for not being able to maintain butterflies and sparkles- which you admit to expecting and is impossible in a long term relationship. You are blameshifting.


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

bigtone128 said:


> I agree but does the fog ever go away and do they see what they did then? Is there a "hitting bottom" point?


I think it goes away for some and they work on R by showing remorse and regret. For others, it is a permanent change. It allows them to re-write their history so that their choices to lie and betray were justified. My stbxw is an example of this. She is ashamed of how she became a habitual liar. Yet, she thinks it was not her fault. She was "forced" to lie. She had an affair because she was "unhappy". Her unhappiness was not her fault!

Or maybe it just takes some people longer hit bottom?


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## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)

bigtone128 said:


> does the fog ever go away and do they see what they did then? Is there a "hitting bottom" point?


Individual results may vary, Some assembly required.


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

See in my case I am ashamed to admit but my H would mention his unmet needs to me and I brushed it under the rug.

Basically he said I made him feel like he was only a pay check and when he came home from being gone overseas or working out of town for weeks on end that I gave the imprression to him that he was an annoyance being back in the house. Which holds some truth because it seemed that it was easier with him being gone...i.e. meals were easier to plan, etc. etc. I got too used to him being away and became very complacent.

So enter summer of 2011 him working overseas for 2 months and ta da..he meets OW who is all flattering and offers to show him around....so a recipe for disaster has begun.


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## bigtone128 (May 1, 2012)

canttrustu said:


> ditto. I was busting my arse and he didnt notice bc he'd already checked out. He was comparing me to OW and no matter what I did, it wasnt good enough. I wasnt shoveling the amount of BS she was and so reality wasnt enough at the time. I did not neglect him. I did not refuse him. I did praise him and give him encouragement but it fell on deaf ears bc he shut me out because his ego had become such an insatiable beast that it was impossible for me to compete with her 10hr/day- 5day/week efforts to build him into a God. So incredibly frustrating! Hard to keep that pace when you have kids and reality to deal with.


So true----I never knew she checked out - it would have been nice if someone informed me of that fact--sitting back and secretly judging every move i made without discussing it with me was a pure power trip on her part. 

To add to this - not informing me of what she was feeling and thinking and what was honestly going on at work was complete BS. Once again, how many spouses or ex-spouses here would have dropped everything if their spouses said to them "we need to talk". I have come to the conclusion that cheaters are incapable of living honest lives. They can get into therapy all they want but they have this sense of entitlement and unwillingness to be vulnerble to another human being that makes them incapable for a healthy relationship.


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

I should preface by saying that what I just typed...does not meant to imply that what he did was justified...I still maintain that it was completely wrong.


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## bigtone128 (May 1, 2012)

Cedarman said:


> Or maybe it just takes some people longer hit bottom?


How long has it been for yours? My ex's AP keeps in constant contact with her - my son said when she was down for Xmas her cell phone constantly was buzzing with him texting. 

I do believe as you said mine will be the type to continually justify her affair.......not one to look at herself and thus incapable for a healthy relationship.


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## bigtone128 (May 1, 2012)

highwood said:


> See in my case I am ashamed to admit but my H would mention his unmet needs to me and I brushed it under the rug.
> 
> Basically he said I made him feel like he was only a pay check and when he came home from being gone overseas or working out of town for weeks on end that I gave the imprression to him that he was an annoyance being back in the house. Which holds some truth because it seemed that it was easier with him being gone...i.e. meals were easier to plan, etc. etc. I got too used to him being away and became very complacent.
> 
> So enter summer of 2011 him working overseas for 2 months and ta da..he meets OW who is all flattering and offers to show him around....so a recipe for disaster has begun.


Okay but hy didnt he talk this over with you.....his loalty broke at that point...


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

bigtone128 said:


> How long has it been for yours? My ex's AP keeps in constant contact with her - my son said when she was down for Xmas her cell phone constantly was buzzing with him texting.
> 
> I do believe as you said mine will be the type to continually justify her affair.......not one to look at herself and thus incapable for a healthy relationship.


My wife's EA began in 2008. Her PA (with the same POSOM) was in summer 2009 and lasted 4 months. We were in false R until we separated in Sept - THEN she confessed to her 2009 PA.. I actually thought we were making some progress - but I think my stbxw is addicted to the feelings associated with first falling in love. She is addicted to adolescent "puppy love". She just couldn't recapture that feeling with me.


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## doc_martin (Oct 19, 2012)

yeah, the false R is a good point. I'm sure my STBXW is using the continued pain, continued guilt, and the continued resentment towards me for not coming back to the table and for coninuing her affair. The fog just rolled in thicker! Now, not only where her needs being unmet by me, but her own need for self validation was getting that much worse! She probably really DID need someone to tell her she was still "great" as she was so afraid to face the pain in my face and looking in the mirror was probably just as bad. 

So at that point, is it still my responsibility to shoulder aside my pain, because she is really needing that support? Isn't that where trying to "nice" the person out of the affair is met with disaster? 

In her case, I don't know if it is a "fog" or not. I think she is so used to compartmentalizing, that she cannot let anything out of that box. She is the 5 year old girl putting her fingers in her ears yelling "I can't hear you! La la la la la!"


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## AnnieAsh (Aug 22, 2012)

canttrustu said:


> I didnt say it was not his job to meet your needs. I said NO one can meet ALL of your needs. Its impossible and frankly unhealthy.
> 
> And yes, he can be shocked if the end of your rope includes you becoming a cheater. There are other options. Counseling. Divorce. Separation. Lots of options. There is NO excuse for cheating.
> 
> And it sounds to me like you are IN FACT blaming him for not being able to maintain butterflies and sparkles- which you admit to expecting and is impossible in a long term relationship. You are blameshifting.


You may think so, then again since we are anonymous posters, you can only give your opinion. I appreciate it. I don't agree but it does give me food for thought. 

There is NO excuse for neglecting your spouse. None.


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## bigtone128 (May 1, 2012)

Cedarman said:


> My wife's EA began in 2008. Her PA (with the same POSOM) was in summer 2009 and lasted 4 months. We were in false R until we separated in Sept - THEN she confessed to her 2009 PA.. I actually thought we were making some progress - but I think my stbxw is addicted to the feelings associated with first falling in love. She is addicted to adolescent "puppy love". She just couldn't recapture that feeling with me.


Honestly though could you ever forgive her? I mean, the thought of the sex act of my ex with this dude would be too much to deal with...that combined with memories how she treated me when she was doing stuff with him is over the top.

I recall when I first moved out and I needed a place to lay my head, I called her up and asked her if I could go home and sleep - she was so loving when I talked to her...THEN (which I now know - she called her AP when I was heading home to sleep and he directed her hat to say) my cell rang and she said in an angry tone "if you come by here, march upstairs, don't say a word and go straight into the spare bedroom!". 

Memories like these hit me hard and I do not know if I can ever forgive her putting his feelings above my own and treating the father of her children like that....after 30 years of knowing one another.

I'm sorry sex is one thing - treatment is another...


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

canttrustu said:


> And yes, he can be shocked if the end of your rope includes you becoming a cheater. There are other options. Counseling. Divorce. Separation. Lots of options. *There is NO excuse for cheating.
> *
> .....
> 
> You are blameshifting.


:iagree: This is exactly it. Those other options are available each and every time; do those other things first! A person has *no right* to cheat. That Rationalization Hamster never stops!


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

AnnieAsh said:


> You may think so, then again since we are anonymous posters, you can only give your opinion. I appreciate it. I don't agree but it does give me food for thought.
> 
> There is NO excuse for neglecting your spouse. None.


Forgive me but cheating is the ultimate in neglect AND abuse.


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

bigtone128 said:


> Honestly though could you ever forgive her? I mean, the thought of the sex act of my ex with this dude would be too much to deal with...that combined with memories how she treated me when she was doing stuff with him is over the top.


That's a good question. For my stbxw, it's a matter of her current state of mind. She's had a complete personality change where even her old friends don't really recognize her. She has a completely new set of friends and her old friends didn't know any of the dirty details of her EA - even before it became a PA. So I view my wife as in a fog still. Yes, our marriage had struggled - with kids, careers, activities - we became more like co-parents than husband and wife. But that doesn't excuse her choices.

So I don't know if I could forgive her - but will always wonder so long as she remains in the fog.

BTW - when she finally confessed her 2009 PA to me (weeks after separating) I actually felt relieved because I suspected something was "off" during our false R. I was grateful that she finally told me because it meant I wasn't imagining things. She WAS hiding something. Then I went through a stage where I hated her and was angry just thinking about her. Now I have accepted what happened, more or less. 

Anyway sorry for the off-topic. Back to the thread: I agree that the fog is all about the WS feeling good about themselves. And it's a feedback loop. The fog allows the WS to feel OK about doing horrible things - which increases the level of the fog - which allows an increase in the horrible betrayals. A secret EA can morph into a PA - being justified by the fog all the way. When the fog becomes so thick that the WS runs aground - THEN there is a chance for R. But if the WS is able to continually navigate through the fog - then it can continue indefinitely.


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

AnnieAsh said:


> You may think so, then again since we are anonymous posters, you can only give your opinion. I appreciate it. I don't agree but it does give me food for thought.
> 
> There is NO excuse for neglecting your spouse. None.


I can only speak for myself, if it were my wife who was considering being unfaithful. If my wife is at the point that she can no longer stand me because of something I am doing or not doing and needs to go to someone else to get what I should be giving her, then she needs to leave me first. And she and I actually had this discussion. It was a promise we made to each other when we were having difficulties about 12 or so years ago. That is the right answer. If I'm not meeting her needs and can't fix it, then we need to part company. I also want that one last wake-up call (and the same goes for her, I won't consider cheating without leaving first). I will not except cheating from my wife and be there to pay for the life style while she get emotional and physical comfort from someone else.

If she ever did it just for the feel good, thrill or infatuation or any of the other nonsense I hear around here .... and I found out about it .... I would throw here out so fast that all she would be is a blur. And then I would make sure that she gets labeled for exactly what she has become. ---- Just Sayin'


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## bigtone128 (May 1, 2012)

Cedarman said:


> And it's a feedback loop. The fog allows the WS to feel OK about doing horrible things - which increases the level of the fog - which allows an increase in the horrible betrayals. A secret EA can morph into a PA - being justified by the fog all the way. When the fog becomes so thick that the WS runs aground - THEN there is a chance for R. But if the WS is able to continually navigate through the fog - then it can continue indefinitely.



I would argue this - similar to any other addiction - it is a downward spiral----guilt for affair...more sex...more guilt...more sex...more guilt...etc...
THEN there's a bottom bc the affair drug stops doing for them what it needs to do for the negative feelings to escape...I guess there is a new person around the corner...thus a new drug...but eventually a bottom,,,where reality hits...but my sesne is they will never admit it to themselves - too painful to look at the wreckage.


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## bigtone128 (May 1, 2012)

The Middleman said:


> I can only speak for myself, if it were my wife who was considering being unfaithful. If my wife is at the point that she can no longer stand me because of something I am doing or not doing and needs to go to someone else to get what I should be giving her, then she needs to leave me first. And she and I actually had this discussion. It was a promise we made to each other when we were having difficulties about 12 or so years ago. That is the right answer. If I'm not meeting her needs and can't fix it, then we need to part company. I also want that one last wake-up call (and the same goes for her, I won't consider cheating without leaving first). I will not except cheating from my wife and be there to pay for the life style while she get emotional and physical comfort from someone else.
> 
> If she ever did it just for the feel good, thrill or infatuation or any of the other nonsense I hear around here .... and I found out about it .... I would throw here out so fast that all she would be is a blur. And then I would make sure that she gets labeled for exactly what she has become. ---- Just Sayin'


Easier said than done----do you not think we ALL had these discussions with our spouses before the affair? We said those things because we never dreamed our exes would do them. I said similar things ---- and I did pretty much what I said I would do - go away and not turn back BUT it has been extremely hard and I am surprised of the feelings I have had...so easier said than done...

it just doesn't happen that way - with an open and honest discussion...it happens with cloud of secrecy and subtly over time - like a slow moving, accelerating train and when it hits - you never knew what hit you or from where it came.......


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

bigtone128 said:


> Easier said than done----do you not think we ALL had these discussions with our spouses before the affair? We said those things because we never dreamed our exes would do them. I said similar things ---- and I did pretty much what I said I would do - go away and not turn back BUT it has been extremely hard and I am surprised of the feelings I have had...so easier said than done...
> 
> it just doesn't happen that way - with an open and honest discussion...it happens with cloud of secrecy and subtly over time - like a slow moving, accelerating train and when it hits - you never knew what hit you or from where it came.......


 I understand what you are saying, but that is what I would do if she did it. I couldn't live with her after a physical affair. I know it's not easy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

bigtone128 said:


> Easier said than done----do you not think we ALL had these discussions with our spouses before the affair? We said those things because we never dreamed our exes would do them. I said similar things ---- and I did pretty much what I said I would do - go away and not turn back BUT it has been extremely hard and I am surprised of the feelings I have had...so easier said than done...
> 
> it just doesn't happen that way - with an open and honest discussion...it happens with cloud of secrecy and subtly over time - like a slow moving, accelerating train and when it hits - you never knew what hit you or from where it came.......


I know for damned sure we did! I told him DURING his A this. When I started to feel that "something was off" I told him if he was unhappy to say so, if he wanted someone else to say so.....He was way too fogged up by then to get any straight answers from him. I have told him since that it would have been easier on me for him to just leave me than to cheat. I still hold to that statement. It would have shown more respect IMO. But it is what it is and he has paid dearly for his 'fun'. No one has given more or lost more than he has. Myself included. I can still look in the mirror and know who I am. He struggles everyday with that. I believe that if he could go back in time and undo this he would. It hasnt been worth the price he's paid. the lost trust and respect. He is working his ass off, as he should, just to get some kind of normalcy again. 

Yes, its easier said than done. And that sucks.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

The Middleman said:


> I understand what you are saying, but that is what I would do if she did it. I couldn't live with her after a physical affair. I know it's not easy.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh NO way, not if it had gone PA. He'd be out on his ass. What we have gone thru has been agonizing. If it had one more element I think we likely would have gone our separate ways. He gave away nearly everything that was mine. If he'd given that too, there'd have been NO hope.


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

The Middleman said:


> I understand what you are saying, but that is what I would do if she did it. I couldn't live with her after a physical affair. I know it's not easy.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't think anybody imagines they could live with their partner after a physical affair BEFORE it happens. But when it does happen it's not always as simple as it sounds. Sometimes the hardest advice to follow is what you tell others. I'm a great example - often advising that people should move on, when I haven't fully moved on myself. I always try to qualify my remarks by mentioning this - but believe me... it is not easy.


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## bigtone128 (May 1, 2012)

canttrustu said:


> I know for damned sure we did! I told him DURING his A this. When I started to feel that "something was off" I told him if he was unhappy to say so, if he wanted someone else to say so.....He was way too fogged up by then to get any straight answers from him. I have told him since that it would have been easier on me for him to just leave me than to cheat. I still hold to that statement. It would have shown more respect IMO. But it is what it is and he has paid dearly for his 'fun'. No one has given more or lost more than he has. Myself included. I can still look in the mirror and know who I am. He struggles everyday with that. I believe that if he could go back in time and undo this he would. It hasnt been worth the price he's paid. the lost trust and respect. He is working his ass off, as he should, just to get some kind of normalcy again.
> 
> Yes, its easier said than done. And that sucks.


Did you take him back?


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## Calibre12 (Nov 27, 2012)

JCD said:


> Mmm...well, if my wife had met _some_ of these needs, I would not have been _as_ vulnerable. Granted, as a person I am vulnerable to such flattery in general, so even if my wife had been a Stepford, I have that tendency.
> 
> However, she was distinctly NOT a Stepford and my ego/validation needs were WOEFULLY unmet. So my 'love bank' was sort of empty.
> 
> ...


Betrayed spouses had unmet needs too! The WS wasn't meeting them either. Why is it that "needs-meeting" appears to be an acceptable one-way street? The dynamic of the whole infidelity thing is why didn't the BS come up with the brilliant idea to do a secret trade-in too with another man or woman at around the same time the WS decided to go for long or short test-drives until they decide who's an option? Just curious.


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## bigtone128 (May 1, 2012)

RightfulRiskTaker said:


> Betrayed spouses had unmet needs too! The WS wasn't meeting them either. Why is it that "needs-meeting" appears to be an acceptable one-way street? The dynamic of the whole infidelity thing is why didn't the BS come up with the brilliant idea to do a secret trade-in too with another man or woman at around the same time the WS decided to go for long or short test-drives until they decide who's an option? Just curious.


Funny and true - when my ex was in the middle of her affair and going on and on about me and my lack of living up to a husband - I said to her..."You were no saint to live with either." It caught her off-guard like it never occurred to her...that is how blinded they are...


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

bigtone128 said:


> Did you take him back?


I did. Its been alot of work. It was never a PA and that ws his saving grace. Not that the EA wasnt reason enough to D him. It was. I chose to stay based on the man I'd lived with for the prior 14 yrs. To find him and see if our M was salvageable. It is. He is very remorseful. He works everyday to prove himself and will need to do so for a very very long time.


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## Ovid (Oct 11, 2012)

The thing to remember about the fog is at some point the WS has to deliberately step into it eyes wide open.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

Ovid said:


> The thing to remember about the fog is at some point the WS has to deliberately step into it eyes wide open.


True dat!!!! And that is why IC is so important. To get to the 'why' of it. Not the excuses. Not the 'unmet needs' bullsh*t. The REAL why. Low self esteem, ego issues, mommy issues, whatever but if you never get to the why its bound to be repeated.


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

Ovid said:


> The thing to remember about the fog is at some point the WS has to deliberately step into it eyes wide open.


Exactly! An affair *IS* a conscious decision! (good to see you again Ovid)


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## Calibre12 (Nov 27, 2012)

AnnieAsh said:


> I agree with some of what you said. Still, I feel like it is my husband's job to meet my needs in such a way that I am in love with him. I think I had expected butterflies and sparkles forever and I know now that it isn't feasible or even fair of me to ask that of him. But at the same time, he cannot completely ignore me and my needs then be SHOCKED when I reach the end of my rope.
> 
> I will NEVER blame my husband for my EA. And I will NEVER tell him he was a fabulous husband at that time. Because he was not.


OMG...Narcissism...Were you a fabulous wife to him? And as the divorce judge would say...Did you keep up in giving him his forever doses of butterflies and sparkles? :scratchhead:


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## Calibre12 (Nov 27, 2012)

Just issuing an apology as a BS, for not being a mind-reading, fire hydrant aiming to put out sparkles and range-shoot butterflies, I guess because I am actually a clone of myself and bleed yellow when I get cut. I self-repair immediately with the computer-dosed injected fluid located in my forearm. Furthermore I actually dare to problem-solve marital problems above the waist. As a result I need intensive ER therapy.


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

canttrustu said:


> True dat!!!! And that is why IC is so important. To get to the 'why' of it. Not the excuses. Not the 'unmet needs' bullsh*t. The REAL why. Low self esteem, ego issues, mommy issues, whatever but if you never get to the why its bound to be repeated.


No body ever says "I just wanted to get F***ed". If they did, I'd believe them (male or female).


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

RightfulRiskTaker said:


> Just issuing an apology as a BS, for not being a mind-reading, fire hydrant aiming to put out sparkles and range-shoot butterflies, I guess because I am actually a clone of myself and bleed yellow when I get cut. I self-repair immediately with the computer-dosed injected fluid located in my forearm. Furthermore I actually dare to problem-solve marital problems above the waist. As a result I need intensive ER therapy.



:rofl::rofl::rofl: Love this!!!!


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

The Middleman said:


> No body ever says "I just wanted to get F***ed". If they did, I'd believe them (male or female).


Agreed but I cant hold my H there. He had that chance and didnt take it so it was about his ego and self esteem. She built him up and made him feel special. If he just wanted to get laid he'd have done so long long ago as his AP was not exactly objecting.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Ovid said:


> The thing to remember about the fog is at some point the WS has to deliberately step into it eyes wide open.


Not always so. I developed cataracts as a result of using early green screen monitors. At first I did not realise I was going blind until one day I realised I could not see.

That's sometimes how an EA starts and can develop into a PA. Suddenly you are in the fog.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

> I agree with some of what you said. Still, I feel like it is my husband's job to meet my needs in such a way that I am in love with him. I think I had expected butterflies and sparkles forever and I know now that it isn't feasible or even fair of me to ask that of him. But at the same time, he cannot completely ignore me and my needs then be SHOCKED when I reach the end of my rope.
> 
> I will NEVER blame my husband for my EA. And I will NEVER tell him he was a fabulous husband at that time. Because he was not.


No one knows the details of your story, Annie.

Maybe he did "completely ignore" you. 

I think it's true that your H needs to meet your needs.

What were you doing to meet his? How do you know it was sufficient for him to want to meet yours? Your words seem to place the blame more on him - that's what makes the BS's angry, I suppose. Because many of us don't see ourselves the way our WS's did. Again, this is a discussion about the fog.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

I just had a really weird thought. Is it possible I wanted to be with the OW because I needed to be with a woman who had not been with my wife's OM?:scratchhead:

Or was this a half-baked attempt to regain my manhood because my wife had shown me very clearly that she held my manhood in disregard as she proved to me that I wasn't man enough for her?

Ouch. I just remembered something. After my wife ended her affair, she was disappointed that I sometimes had difficulty in maintaining an erection. I think I was worried in case she was judging me by his sexual prowess. But that's one thing we never talked about.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> I just had a really weird thought. Is it possible I wanted to be with the OW because I needed to be with a woman who had not been with my wife's OM?:scratchhead:
> 
> Or was this a half-baked attempt to regain my manhood because my wife had shown me very clearly that she held my manhood in disregard as she proved to me that I wasn't man enough for her?
> 
> Ouch. I just remembered something. After my wife ended her affair, she was disappointed that I sometimes had difficulty in maintaining an erection. I think I was worried in case she was judging me by his sexual prowess. But that's one thing we never talked about.


I woulndt think this is uncommon for a man who's wife has been with someone else. Sex is psychological as much as physiological so....


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> I just had a really weird thought. Is it possible I wanted to be with the OW because I needed to be with a woman who had not been with my wife's OM?:scratchhead:


This could be it. I know it would be my reason if I were in you situation!


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

canttrustu said:


> I woulndt think this is uncommon for a man who's wife has been with someone else. Sex is psychological as much as physiological so....


To be be honest, CTU, I was surprised I could get an erection at all. And I still don't feel our sex life ever got back to what it was before her affair. Not even now. I don't know, it's like I'm been judged on my performance?


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> To be be honest, CTU, I was surprised I could get an erection at all. And I still don't feel our sex life ever got back to what it was before her affair. Not even now. I don't know, it's like I'm been judged on my performance?


I believe it. I think this is the effect it would have on my H. Im almost positive of it. I honestly think he would D me bc he'd not be able to touch me afterward. I think he'd try but I dont think he could. JMO. SO I can see how this could have a permanant effect on your sex life or at least a very long term one. I know his 
EA has effected it so I cant imagine had he gone PA- I dont think I'd have it in me to continue. Some things are just.....mine.


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## AnnieAsh (Aug 22, 2012)

RightfulRiskTaker said:


> OMG...Narcissism...Were you a fabulous wife to him? And as the divorce judge would say...Did you keep up in giving him his forever doses of butterflies and sparkles? :scratchhead:


Lovely. Thanks for diagnosing me lol! Yes, I am a fabulous wife to him NOW. I'm working hard to show him I love and respect him and part of that love and respect is no longer tolerating his "benign neglect." I lied to him all the time. Yeah I'm ok if you go out with your friends. Oh sure go take a long term training course and leave me alone for weeks on end. 

I have a thread. My husband is in federal law enforcement. I stay home, take care of his life so he can do what he loves. If he wants to go to a boating school across the country for a month he DOES because Annie will ALWAYS keep home and hearth for him. I'm alone for hours a day, and felt like I had no right to feel sad because I am just a SAHM. 

He likes sex on his two days off; I got pushed away when I tried to hug and kiss him. He once told me I'm like a horny teenager. That wasn't a compliment either.  After years of that, you tend to pull away assuming you will be rejected again. 

My boundaries are something I have to keep sky high NO MATTER WHAT. Just because he acts like a jerk doesn't give me the right to be a bigger one. And I definitely was the biggest a-hole.


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

AnnieAsh said:


> I got pushed away when I tried to hug and kiss him. He once told me I'm like a horny teenager. That wasn't a compliment either.


I would have smacked him up-side his head. He doesn't know how lucky he is!!!!!


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

canttrustu said:


> I believe it. I think this is the effect it would have on my H. Im almost positive of it. I honestly think he would D me bc he'd not be able to touch me afterward. I think he'd try but I dont think he could. JMO. SO I can see how this could have a permanant effect on your sex life or at least a very long term one. I know his
> EA has effected it so I cant imagine had he gone PA- I dont think I'd have it in me to continue. Some things are just.....mine.


God. I couldn't leave her. I loved/love her too much.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> God. I couldn't leave her. I loved/love her too much.


Good and I know you do its very apparent. And I hope the 'rest' works itsself out over time and thru effort and patience.


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## Pandakiss (Oct 29, 2010)

yes, WW's do wake up, and look at all the damage they caused, the hurt and pain.

it took years of various levels of transparency. i had to the heavy lifting, and get to the root of why i was doing this distructive behavior. my husband did nothing wrong, and i, being in a clear frame of mind, didnt/dont blame him one bit.

i know it was making stupid choices. i wont do anything like that again, because i have gotten to the root of my problem. we have talked about boundries, and OSF, and G/GNO, and all those good things and more.

it may have taken 20 years, but we both finally have the marriage we both wanted, and we are like 20 year olds....


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> God. I couldn't leave her. I loved/love her too much.


But what if she were to do it again???


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

The thing about the "fog" to me is that the PA is just one last step in the deception/betrayal. And it's not even a big step for the WS who is in the fog - they've already justified it in their minds when they initiate the EA. At least for me, the PA is only slightly more damaging than the EA. I know it wasn't because of any problem with our sexual relationship which was always healthy and satisfying. The actual physical act doesn't haunt me so much as the betrayal and lies that were associated with it. 

It's hard to explain - but I am pretty sure that I can forgive my wife for the act, and can get past the images and mind movies - but I would have a very hard time forgiving her betrayal of our trust and would never trust her fully again. So even if it was just an EA (which I was led to believe for a long time) - the betrayal is way up there in terms of damage.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

canttrustu said:


> But what if she were to do it again???


Really? What would I *really* do? Hopefully, not have a revenge affair, this time. Would I forgive her? In all honesty? I probably would.


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

This is a interesting thread.
I never knew a EA could hurt so much,after eleven months.....finally things are getting better.
A PA? I couldnt do it,thats way up there.
Body and soul are given then.
Then again,I havent been put in that situation.
EA or PA,it still hurts like a mother.
I guess it really all comes down to the WS and what they do to fix it.
As far as the fog,I believed in it,then I didnt.
Knowing what I know now,I believe in it to an extent.Judgment gets clouded and bad decisions are made.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LdyVenus (Dec 1, 2012)

highwood said:


> As angry as I get at H over his EA..at times I can kind of see how he could have been drawn to his AP.
> 
> Thinking about the emails I saw...the "Hi Handsome", the excitment she portrayed in talking with him, the fawning over him, the flirtatiousness, etc. etc. I guess a part of me could see where his ego was boosted up.


This!!

Mine's Ow called him "honey" and "sugar". 
What a bunch of fake B.S.


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## LdyVenus (Dec 1, 2012)

Cedarman said:


> I don't think anybody imagines they could live with their partner after a physical affair BEFORE it happens. But when it does happen it's not always as simple as it sounds.


Ugh... Yeah it is, just think of all the germs you've been sharing with someone you don't even know. Blah.


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## bigtone128 (May 1, 2012)

Cedarman said:


> The thing about the "fog" to me is that the PA is just one last step in the deception/betrayal. And it's not even a big step for the WS who is in the fog - they've already justified it in their minds when they initiate the EA. At least for me, the PA is only slightly more damaging than the EA. I know it wasn't because of any problem with our sexual relationship which was always healthy and satisfying. The actual physical act doesn't haunt me so much as the betrayal and lies that were associated with it.
> 
> It's hard to explain - but I am pretty sure that I can forgive my wife for the act, and can get past the images and mind movies - but I would have a very hard time forgiving her betrayal of our trust and would never trust her fully again. So even if it was just an EA (which I was led to believe for a long time) - the betrayal is way up there in terms of damage.


therein lies the problem.......too much betrayal - i do not care if she was in a fog so thick she was blind - at some level whether it was during oral or sex - she must have thought of me (and if she didnt thats even a bigger problem). i cannot get over that and would never be able to trust her again....she has this bad avoidance habit whee she thinks time will heal all wounds.....which is wrong,,she told my oldest that "in two years we might be a couple again" yea right.........


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

The Middleman said:


> Care to explain?





canttrustu said:


> No one person can meet all of their spouse's emotional needs/wants. Its the spouse's job to discuss any voids they may be experiencing with their SO. We arent mind readers after all,eh? Also, there are other ways to have your needs met. LS' found a way now didnt they? Also, some people are so incredibly needy that it is exhausting to try and fill them up. They have such high expectations of marriage and the person they've married that its impossible to maintain that level of fulfullment. People need to be able to fill themselves up to some degree. Thats what friends are for and family. Not the girl at the office.
> 
> So, yes I believe it can be about unmet needs but that is STILL the responsiblity of the WS to speak up about adn if they have and they still arent having them met then maybe a seperation is in order but cheating and using two people to get what they need/want is total BS!



It's late, so I'll be brief, and I admit I've only made it to the top of page 2, so bear that in mind.

But I felt I owed a response to these ideas and I have a two word answer: Annie Ash

Last I read on her thread, she got that the OM was BAD news and she was doing FRIGGING BACKFLIPS to get her hubby to meet her 'unfulfilled emotional needs'.

She tried talking

She suggested counseling

She showed him that he ran into a REAL RISK of infidelity if he didn't change his attitude.

Last I checked (which was months ago) NOTHING. No changes. no talks, no counseling. Why should he change? He loved his job...he had his dinner, he had sex on demand...WHY should he change? Admit HE had a problem? Pshaw!

She has done EVERYTHING right. 

Now, what is the advice from the CWI Choir? Divorce his ass!

This coming from the same people assuring Carlton that single moms with kids are man repellent...and yet they advice this same future to Annie.

She's read the stats about what her financial future is after divorce

She's read the studies about her children's futures.

She knows she'd have to quit school and probably move and likely declare bankruptcy

And yet people who don't face the consequences of her choice advise this and point the finger firmly at HER and not the guy pushing her toward a lonely life or the choice of sinking into moral abyss because her soul is empty. SHE is selfish? Huh!

I'd think about that hard.

Now, this isn't always the case, but I've provided one concrete example. Want to bet there are more out there?


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## bigtone128 (May 1, 2012)

JCD said:


> It's late, so I'll be brief, and I admit I've only made it to the top of page 2, so bear that in mind.
> 
> But I felt I owed a response to these ideas and I have a two word answer: Annie Ash
> 
> ...


Okay but MOST WSs are not like what you described...I knew we had issues ....thought when our youngest son graduated from HS we would be able to deal with them..
she did not suggest counselling, she once stated to me "if you do that again, we are through" to which I replied "You might have to lose someone you love to realize how unimportant this issue is.." it turns out she already had someone on the side waiting and jsut needed justification to do it...I guess i gave it to her. but my thoughts were and still are..if it was not that, it would be something else. 
I later begged for counselling, etc. but she already was involved. and i was dealing with inaccurate information. 

So your example is not an accurate one and I think even if you asked annie she would tell you she re-wrote marital history to justify what she was doing..


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

highwood said:


> See in my case I am ashamed to admit but my H would mention his unmet needs to me and I brushed it under the rug.
> 
> Basically he said I made him feel like he was only a pay check and when he came home from being gone overseas or working out of town for weeks on end that I gave the imprression to him that he was an annoyance being back in the house. Which holds some truth because it seemed that it was easier with him being gone...i.e. meals were easier to plan, etc. etc. I got too used to him being away and became very complacent.
> 
> So enter summer of 2011 him working overseas for 2 months and ta da..he meets OW who is all flattering and offers to show him around....so a recipe for disaster has begun.



Quoted for Truth.

Look, cheating is a choice. It is. But just like being cold and wet doesn't create a cold virus, it certainly helps lowering the immune system of the person.

Being a good spouse immunizes against that. But warm dry people still get colds too...so it's not affair proofing, but it certainly helps.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

canttrustu said:


> I know for damned sure we did! I told him DURING his A this. When I started to feel that "something was off" I told him if he was unhappy to say so, if he wanted someone else to say so.....He was way too fogged up by then to get any straight answers from him. I have told him since that it would have been easier on me for him to just leave me than to cheat. I still hold to that statement. It would have shown more respect IMO. But it is what it is and he has paid dearly for his 'fun'. No one has given more or lost more than he has. Myself included. I can still look in the mirror and know who I am. He struggles everyday with that. I believe that if he could go back in time and undo this he would. It hasnt been worth the price he's paid. the lost trust and respect. He is working his ass off, as he should, just to get some kind of normalcy again.
> 
> Yes, its easier said than done. And that sucks.



What is it all the BS say about 'real remorse' and cheating spouses? Actions not words.

Believe it or not, when I started to wander into my friend/EA, I actually tried to TALK to my spouse. Tried to get my emotional needs met. Telling her things which were going wrong and seeking counseling.

Well, to be frank, at least she was honest because she said she wouldn't do that.

But many spouses SAY they will 'fix things'...and as Taylor Swift says in that song "it lasted just a day".

If actions, not words are suitable for cheaters, how about spouses trying to fix things? Sometimes (not speaking about you), the spouse listens to the soon to be wayward spouse and promises and...does...nothing.

A BS form of gaslighting.

Does this justify the affair? No.

I had a prosecutor teach a class on crime. There are three pleas:

Innocent

Guilty

Guilty with an explanation.

If we modify our punishment for theft because someone was starving or murder because of self defense, how is it we can't modify our stance on infidelity when the spouse has been emotionally starved...and attempted satisfaction FIRST.

in my reconcilliation with my wife, I 'blameshifted'. I said that our marriage as is wasn't worth all that much and R-ing just to go back to the status quo wasn't worth my time.

A VERY hard and ugly stance, I know. But you know what? My wife was mature enough to acknowledge her mistakes as well...and now we communicate AND meet each other's needs.

It was easy in our case. If I had screwed around, it wouldn't have happened.

It's easy to just slap a 'narcissist' label on someone. It excludes any contributory actions by the BS. They don't need to look at themselves.

Life isn't always that simple


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Ovid said:


> The thing to remember about the fog is at some point the WS has to deliberately step into it eyes wide open.


This is true. At some point you make a choice. A choice to do wrong.

And sometimes the WS justifies it by giddy feelings. Sometimes it's justified by resentments.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

bigtone128 said:


> Okay but MOST WSs are not like what you described
> 
> ...
> 
> ...



Never said ALL WS.

So essentially you are calling me and Annie liars. We don't really 'feel' the way we did at the time. No...it's just rewriting marital history.

Way before my EA, I was pounding the walls in frustration. But that's a lie I'm telling myself. Huh.

Okay, since we are playing like that...let's go take a look at a case study.



> ...I knew we had issues ....thought when our youngest son graduated from HS we would be able to deal with them..


Translation: you aren't important enough to fix things NOW. My efforts are going to my kid/job/whatever butterfly crosses my path. YOU my wife can wait.



> she once stated to me "if you do that again, we are through" to which I replied "You might have to lose someone you love to realize how unimportant this issue is.." ]


Translation: your feelings are wrong and irrelevant...and unimportant. I'M WAY too good for you to risk losing so I will blatantly ignore this red flag you are waving frantically.


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## bigtone128 (May 1, 2012)

JCD said:


> Never said ALL WS.
> 
> So essentially you are calling me and Annie liars. We don't really 'feel' the way we did at the time. No...it's just rewriting marital history.
> 
> ...


Translation: your feelings are wrong and irrelevant...and unimportant. I'M WAY too good for you to risk losing so I will blatantly ignore this red flag you are waving frantically.[/QUOTE]

You and other cheaters should have just left....no, you all wanted your cake and eat it too....can anyone hear see a false reconciliation rationalization here?


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## life101 (Nov 18, 2012)

AnnieAsh said:


> You may think so, then again since we are anonymous posters, you can only give your opinion. I appreciate it. I don't agree but it does give me food for thought.
> 
> There is NO excuse for neglecting your spouse. None.


Please enlighten me if any of this counts for neglect...

1. Translating a whole book for her so that she can get a good grade, sacrificing my own studies.

2. Being there always during her two surgeries, nursing her back to health.

3. Sacrificing two years of my career and letting go a ton of opportunities, permanently sabotaging my once shining resume.

4. Supporting her all the times emotionally, and financially, many times going over and above my means.

5. Forgiving her three EAs(PA?... see I am the one under the fog...) and giving her so many chances to redeem herself.

Now, please tell me if any of these sounds like neglect to you...

1. Cheating on a devoted boyfreind and then husband three times.

2. Cutting all mode of communications and then blaming me for not listening to her.

3. Demonizing me to the family, so that I don't get any help from relatives in order to save my marriage. 

4. Not willing to work on the relationship even after repeated requests. Behaving like I am a nobody to her, treating me like ****, and telling me what the OM dictated to her.

5. Taking the decisions jointly, then blaming me for all that were wrong in the relationship and praising herself for putting up with me for such a long time.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

bigtone128 said:


> You and other cheaters should have just left....no, you all wanted your cake and eat it too....can anyone hear see a false reconciliation rationalization here?


You really don't understand waywards at all. It's much easier to just scream 'cake' and dismiss their feelings and needs.

I'm betting half of all betrayed spouses, put on the infallible polygraph, would be forced to admit that the red relationship flags were streaming in the breeze...but they just ignored the smoke coming up from the hood and decided to milk a few more miles out of the marriage.

From what you admit, you had all the signs. What did you do? Right....wait...


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

life101 said:


> Please enlighten me if any of this counts for neglect...
> 
> 1. Translating a whole book for her so that she can get a good grade, sacrificing my own studies.
> 
> ...


We have a 'Sex in Marriage' thread. In it,hundreds of spouses wail about lack of sex/affection/respect for years in some cases.

Now, reading their frankly painful missives, if one of them slipped and got affection/sex from someone, would you blame them to the same extent you blame your wife?

Do you think your wife's situation is analogous to Annie's?

(Sorry to pick on you Annie)


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

JCD said:


> What is it all the BS say about 'real remorse' and cheating spouses? Actions not words.
> 
> Believe it or not, when I started to wander into my friend/EA, I actually tried to TALK to my spouse. Tried to get my emotional needs met. Telling her things which were going wrong and seeking counseling.
> 
> ...


OK. You've talked about you and how its your wife's fault and Annie and how its her H's fault. Let me ask you this- Were you and Annie the perfect spouse? Did you meet ALL of your spouses needs? No way. Its impossible for anyone to meet all of someones needs. And again, IMO Its unhealthy to look to one person to have all of your needs met. Sometimes you have to look within yourself. Get some friends. Spend time with extended family. the people who do the 'rest' of the filling for you. NOT the girl at the office who is so full of **** her eyes are brown. The one who will give you a day full of false platitudes and unsustainable amounts of attention and then hold your spouse to that standard when franky its not possible for anyone in a long term serious relationship, based In REALITY to acheive. 

So now I will tell you how it went for us. First I ws NOT part of the choir who told someone that single moms are screwed. I was a single mom and had no problem as a matter of fact. I divorced my 1st H (who decided he liked men) with no problem and I had a 5 yr old and a 1 yr old. I left him and never considered anything else despite his wanting to make an "arrangement" for him to support us and for me to stay so his parents wouldnt find out. He offered an open marriage and complete support. I declined and took myself and two children out on my own and scraped along but it beat the hell out of staying and feeling like his cover- bought and paid for. So never once have I recommended anyone stay bc they have small children. NEVER. So you can take me off that list you included me in earlier when quoting me.

So- here is how my H's affair went.... He met her in late Feb 2011, he immediately started flirting, lots of smiles and compliments. My May they were having an EA complete with emails and texting, phone calls and late nights at the office while I cooked dinner and we ate alone. We had a VERY ill daughter. VERY. I am guilty of concentrating on her during those summer mos. In july he decided he loved OW and ramped up his A. An affair that he continued while we had a very sick child. She used our daughter's illness to pluck at his heartstrings and he allowed it bc its what he wanted. By Oct I was asking alot of questions. He ws coming home late alot, being distant, uninterested in sex and picking fights. Still I ws concentrating on our sick child and another who'd just gone off to college. He NEVER one time mentioned feeling neglected or asked to talk about anything. I had asked if "everything ws ok or if we needed to talk" multiple times by NOV. When he missed my bday party bc he ws at his office w her. THen he stopped on his way home to buy a card. In Dec, while our daughter was home from college on break, he said OW's name SO many times that our then 18yr old said "who the hell is j......." to me. She said "mom I think you might have a problem. He talks alot about this woman. Do you know who she is?" By then I had a pretty good idea and had begun asking "if there was someone else?" "of course not, I love you. you know I wouldnt do anything to risk my family".......BUT I knew better from reading his emails to her. December was a horrible month and we had a HUGE blowup over her when he told me "you need to see a dr you've become a jealous nutjob"...... UFB. he promised to steer clear of her as she was just someone he worked with.....the next day I saw more than 60 emails between them and he stayed in her office for hours. Then he was off for 2 wks around Christmas(because he refused to take his vacation bc he wanted to be with her)so at the end of the yr he was forced to use it. So he was here for 2 wks yet not here at all. Still reading emails/sending emails. Taking calls from her and texts. Work related he said..... Then in Jan when he went back to work I made sure I knew exactly what was going on. EXACTLY. And guess what, again I asked "anything we need to talk about? Are you ok?" and again "nope. Im good. Just busy at work and a little distracted..." yeah buddy, never were truer words spoken eh? Feb was dday. It took another 3 mos to get NC and several more to get the whole story bc he ws so damned fogged up he couldnt see straight. 

so was I perfect - NO. But he was given multiple opportunities to speak up if he was unhappy. I was dealing with a sick child and getting one off to college while he ws having himself a good ole' time. He NEVER one time said anything about being unhappy or having unmet needs. So this is 100% on HIM. He went head on into this A. Eyes wide open straight into the abyss. And he took us all with him. 

So Im really sorry if your needs werent being met but its weak and total bs to say your only option was to have them met by some skank outside your marriage. Do you really think you are so perfect that youre meeting all of your spouses needs? I know for damned sure my H wasnt meeting mine. But you know what, while I was alone and crying for our daughter and he was yucking it up with that skank I was the one NOT having my needs met. Yet still, I ws the faithful one. Unmet needs is an excuse. Often a fabricated one that you didnt articulate or even feel until that other person came along. My H admits to that. That the 'reasons' he gave were nothing but justification for his BUllsh*T- just like yours.


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## Ovid (Oct 11, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> Not always so. I developed cataracts as a result of using early green screen monitors. At first I did not realise I was going blind until one day I realised I could not see.
> 
> That's sometimes how an EA starts and can develop into a PA. Suddenly you are in the fog.


My wife did the slipery slope thing. She didn't immediately jump in, but fell in slowly. Still there was a point where she knew she was wrong and chose to proceed.


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

The conditions leading up to infidelity are shared by the couple. It is their shared responsibility to communicate with each other and fill any emotional/physical needs. In a loving relationship - this is what needs to happen constantly. When the love is slipping, it is because of incompatibility or lack of communication.

NONE of this justifies infidelity. It is a choice to cheat vs stepping out of the marriage or having a heart to heart talk with your spouse.

Part of the fog is in forgetting this truth. Self-justification for lying and cheating is a major part of the fog. But it is totally delusional thinking. When you lie or cheat, you can make excuses, but at the end of the day you remain a liar and a cheat. 

So the damage is not just to the BS via the cheating. The damage is self inflicted to the WS's own character, or lack thereof.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Okay.

You said your husband never said he was unhappy. Not once. In fact you say you badgered him to get to the root of your problems.

Juxtapose that with Annie, who is/was screaming to her husband "We have this BIG problem!"...and got nothing in return.

So...how are these two situations comparable?

BTW Annie I hope things are getting better.

I'm using her more as an iconic example than a real life one.

What do you tell some woman in 'sex in marriage' who is offering ANYTHING for some love and affection...and gets nothing?

Again, this is 'guilty with an explanation', not innocent.

Every cheater CHOOSES to cheat. Some BS's make it an EASY choice. Some less so.

That is all I am saying.


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## Ovid (Oct 11, 2012)

The Middleman said:


> Exactly! An affair *IS* a conscious decision! (good to see you again Ovid)


Thank you.:smthumbup:


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

JCD said:


> You really don't understand waywards at all. It's much easier to just scream 'cake' and dismiss their feelings and needs.
> 
> I'm betting half of all betrayed spouses, put on the infallible polygraph, would be forced to admit that the red relationship flags were streaming in the breeze...but they just ignored the smoke coming up from the hood and decided to milk a few more miles out of the marriage.
> 
> From what you admit, you had all the signs. What did you do? Right....wait...


No.We do understand, thats just it. It seems to me that though you are the perpetrator you wish to be treated as the victim here. 

So youre telling us that you had a bad marriage. Lousy in fact so your answer was to further complicate things by ruining any and all trust your wife had for you now and in the years to come? Wow, by that standard EVERY BS is ENTITLED to cheat because afterall, you arent meeting their needs right now. Their need to feel safe and secure and loved. Their need to trust you and know you have their back. So since the BS' needs are now totally unmet- I think we should ALL complicate this already disasterous issue by adding yet ANOTHER party to the mix. That way when our mind movies are going, you'll have something to say "well you did it too" about and you wont have to take ANY responsibility at all.


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

JCD: In your example, what did Annie owe her husband? Nothing? Then why did she not leave the marriage? Obviously there was a moment of decision where she must have thought that it was better to do things covertly to protect what she had. Yes, maybe her husband made it easy for her to cheat by his treatment of her. Maybe she did communicate her feelings and he was totally non-responsive. So at that point, why cheat. Why not just walk?

THAT is part of the fog. The delusion that the WS can have it all and can justify any action because THEY are the victim.

Of course, there are degrees of guilt and shared responsibilities. But we are not talking about the ACT of extra-marital sex. We are talking about the act of hiding the extra-marital sex via an affair. People cheat and hide the cheating (i.e. lie) for a reason. And that reason is invariably tied to selfish and delusional concerns.


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## Calibre12 (Nov 27, 2012)

To JCD: You never knew you would seek out someone else in case your marital conditions fell below par? I guarantee that your problem solving below the waist was in effect long before you took your vows with someone who trusted that you would keep them. Your spouse didn't have needs too? Were you meeting them before you compiled the long list of how she wasn't meeting yours? Treat people the way you would like to be treated. 

You are blaming your wife for your decision to forsake her. Your wife did not make the decision to cheat on you when her needs were being unmet by you. For that you should consider yourself extremely lucky. I guarantee that the "greener grass" would cheat on you and rightfully so. Selfishness begets selfishness, thats how a wayward attracts an AP (an equally selfish beast). When I felt my needs were being unmet I treated my husband the way I wanted to be treated...Nothing came of it. He had already zeroed in on his target and used stories about me to hook, line and sinker her. If he didn't keep generating stories and setting me up to fail, he wouldn't have any reason to call her and complain and she wouldn't have any reason to stroke more than his ego. Its called ganging up on an unsuspecting person who trusts that you have their back while they are managing the day to day details of living so you have enough time to entertain a fantasy affording you the opportunity to call them neglectful. 

I guarantee that your target was set long before you expressed to your spouse that you need emotional care and had already set up some scoring card where she could never meet them because you were alrerady comparing her. You and your teammate putting her in a competition she never knew she was in, resembles placing a limbo bar one inch above the ground and telling her to not touch it when you force her participate. She was bound to fail in your spectator sport and complete with your fan, while you and AP stood by and watched and ridiculed her. Your wife sounds like a very nice, kind and gracious woman to have even given you a second chance.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

canttrustu said:


> No.We do understand, thats just it. It seems to me that though you are the perpetrator you wish to be treated as the victim here.
> 
> So youre telling us that you had a bad marriage. Lousy in fact so your answer was to further complicate things by ruining any and all trust your wife had for you now and in the years to come? Wow, by that standard EVERY BS is ENTITLED to cheat because afterall, you arent meeting their needs right now. Their need to feel safe and secure and loved. Their need to trust you and know you have their back. So since the BS' needs are now totally unmet- I think we should ALL complicate this already disasterous issue by adding yet ANOTHER party to the mix. That way when our mind movies are going, you'll have something to say "well you did it too" about and you wont have to take ANY responsibility at all.


Well, right now you have me rolling out of bed saying 'you know what I want to do today? I REALLY want to fvck up my life and my marriage. Let me look around to see who I can do it with.'

As Ovid said, this stuff sneaks up on you. Talk to any posters who edged toward an EA and they will all tell you the same thing: they never intended this, but it came out of nowhere and suddenly we were making choices that we can't believe we made after the fact.

Believe it or not, I'm a very self reflective person...but of course you don't want to believe that. If I'm self reflective, that means I know what I'm talking about.

I know what I did. I know how I got there. I know how I failed my wife...and how she failed me. If she engaged in an affair, I'd understand my role in her choice. I wouldn't forgive her, but I'd own up to MY responsibility. Because it is a choice. (This assumes PA, not EA). 

This is getting a bit far afield from the question of the fog.

I have experienced it myself. I don't know that this answers all the questions of the actions of the waywards.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

JCD said:


> Okay.
> 
> You said your husband never said he was unhappy. Not once. In fact you say you badgered him to get to the root of your problems.
> 
> ...


The difference and what you seem to have left out conveniently is that HE wasnt meeting my needs either! He was off with some woman at the office while I dealt with home and school and sick kids and drs. He was picking fights, refusing sex and absent in mind even when present in body. So whats the difference?????? THe difference is even though I had unmet needs as well, I honored my vows. I have had opportunity to cheat when he wasnt exactly doing all the right things either, know what I did? I told HIM. I told him I was attracted to someone els and he needed to step it up! Do you think for one minute that ws an easy thing to say to the man I love ? I wasnt but what other choice did I have? Well I could have made the one he made I suppose.....The one you made. and annie. I continue to make that choice though I have unmet needs as I type this. My need to completely trust my partner. My need to be able to be emotionally vulnerable with him. My need to feel respected. Yet here I am dude. Faithful because its the right thing to do. Because I gave my word and that is worth something.


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

The critical feature of the "fog" and how it relates to this thread is that the fog allows the WS to feel good about themselves and their actions.

The "fog" allows the WS to lie and to think "I am not a liar - I am being forced to lie". The "fog" allows the WS to think "I am not a cheater - I am being forced to cheat". The fog is a feel-good drug that feeds delusions. And as I've stated before - some of the thinking patterns, developed under the "fog" become permanent for some WS's. So even when the affair ends and the fog lifts, many WS's have re-invented their own history so that they can look back and think - "it wasn't me - I was forced to cheat".

Again, the "fog" is a defense mechanism which allows the WS to justify their actions and feel good about themselves.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

canttrustu said:


> The difference and what you seem to have left out conveniently is that HE wasnt meeting my needs either! He was off with some woman at the office while I dealt with home and school and sick kids and drs. He was picking fights, refusing sex and absent in mind even when present in body. So whats the difference?????? THe difference is even though I had unmet needs as well, I honored my vows. I have had opportunity to cheat when he wasnt exactly doing all the right things either, know what I did? I told HIM. I told him I was attracted to someone els and he needed to step it up! Do you think for one minute that ws an easy thing to say to the man I love ? I wasnt but what other choice did I have? Well I could have made the one he made I suppose.....The one you made. and annie. I continue to make that choice though I have unmet needs as I type this. My need to completely trust my partner. My need to be able to be emotionally vulnerable with him. My need to feel respected. Yet here I am dude. Faithful because its the right thing to do. Because I gave my word and that is worth something.


Kudos to you. I am daily making that same choice...somewhat too late but there. And it was only a EA.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

JCD said:


> Kudos to you. I am daily making that same choice...somewhat too late but there. And it was only a EA.


ONLY????? wow,. My H kept his pants as well but gave away a piece of his heart- an EA. I dont think the word "only" gave away his heart is appropriate.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Cedarman said:


> The critical feature of the "fog" and how it relates to this thread is that the fog allows the WS to feel good about themselves and their actions.
> 
> The "fog" allows the WS to lie and to think "I am not a liar - I am being forced to lie". The "fog" allows the WS to think "I am not a cheater - I am being forced to cheat". The fog is a feel-good drug that feeds delusions. And as I've stated before - some of the thinking patterns, developed under the "fog" become permanent for some WS's. So even when the affair ends and the fog lifts, many WS's have re-invented their own history so that they can look back and think - "it wasn't me - I was forced to cheat".
> 
> Again, the "fog" is a defense mechanism which allows the WS to justify their actions and feel good about themselves.


Just curious...is it a 'fog' when an abusive or neglectful spouse looks over to the empty side of the bed when their spouse leaves them and they say 'I didn't do anything wrong. They just got bored with marriage'?


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

JCD said:


> Just curious...is it a 'fog' when an abusive or neglectful spouse looks over to the empty side of the bed when their spouse leaves them and they say 'I didn't do anything wrong. They just got bored with marriage'?


Yes. There are fogs on both sides of the equation.


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

JCD said:


> Kudos to you. I am daily making that same choice...somewhat too late but there. And it was only a EA.


When you say it was "only an EA" you are trying to imply that you were less of a liar and cheat? 

You see, the damage is in the betrayal. And yes, there are levels of betrayal and levels of damage - but as I stated before - the fact that you didn't get your stick wet doesn't make the lying and the cheating more acceptable or even less damaging.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

canttrustu said:


> ONLY????? wow,.


Yes. Because screwing someone was a choice I didn't want to make. Having her send me racy pictures was a choice I said no to.

But please continue to throw darts. Use 'cake', 'selfish' and 'narcissist' a lot. I am not a person, I'm an object.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Cedarman said:


> When you say it was "only an EA" you are trying to imply that you were less of a liar and cheat?
> 
> You see, the damage is in the betrayal. And yes, there are levels of betrayal and levels of damage - but as I stated before - the fact that you didn't get your stick wet doesn't make the lying and the cheating more acceptable or even less damaging.


Never lied. Never hid. She knew I was talking to a 'friend'. The cheating was taking time and affection away from my family.


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## Calibre12 (Nov 27, 2012)

The Middleman said:


> No body ever says "I just wanted to get F***ed". If they did, I'd believe them (male or female).


:iagree:


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

JCD said:


> Yes. Because screwing someone was a choice I didn't want to make. Having her send me racy pictures was a choice I said no to.
> 
> But please continue to throw darts. Use 'cake', 'selfish' and 'narcissist' a lot. I am not a person, I'm an object.


WEll once again you are assigning statements made by someone else to me. I have not used ANY of those words here with you. None. 

Its good you drew a line. My H did as well. He refused sex. Its his saving grace however, he did NOT ONLY have an emotional affair. The reality is he gave away a piece of him that should have been mine. The reality is that "only" EA had him lying, evading and avoiding at all costs. It had him neglecting his children. It had him neglecting his job. It had him rewriting our history to better suit his justification efforts. That "ONLY" EA has nearly caused us to lose everything we hold dear. "ONLY" is a mimumizing word. Its like "I ONLY fvcked her once"......


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

JCD said:


> Never lied. Never hid. She knew I was talking to a 'friend'. The cheating was taking time and affection away from my family.


:rofl: goodness how far are you from dday? YOure still fogged up dude. Never lied.:rofl: You gave lies of ommission at very least.


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

JCD said:


> Yes. Because screwing someone was a choice I didn't want to make. Having her send me racy pictures was a choice I said no to.
> 
> But please continue to throw darts. Use 'cake', 'selfish' and 'narcissist' a lot. I am not a person, I'm an object.


You see, I read this and I take away little bit of cowardice on your part. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh - but when you initiated or responded to the EA, and got to a point where she was sending racy pictures - I see a guy who was fantasizing and doing things behind your wife's back but who pulled out at the last second because you lacked the guts to a: tell your wife to begin with or leave the marriage and/or b: do the deed with the OW. So not only were you playing behind your wife's back - you were playing with the OW. What did you do when she sent you racy pictures? Send back an indignant response saying "I am not that type of man - let's just continue to sext each other"?

OR, was it a case of YOU snapping out of the fog when the racy pictures arrived in your inbox?

IF that's the case, then I would take back what I said above, with apologies and chalk you up to another victim of the "fog".

Otherwise, sorry, but I see nothing MORE honourable in a person who says it was "just an EA".


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## life101 (Nov 18, 2012)

JCD said:


> We have a 'Sex in Marriage' thread. In it,hundreds of spouses wail about lack of sex/affection/respect for years in some cases.
> 
> Now, reading their frankly painful missives, if one of them slipped and got affection/sex from someone, would you blame them to the same extent you blame your wife?
> 
> ...


Why not get divorced first, before cheating? The fact that they remained married means that marriage was something worth having (most of the times financially). That's hypocrisy. You cannot pick and choose in a relationship.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Perhaps it was cowardice. I could just as easily imply that 'faithful' spouse don't have integrity. They just lack courage to act on their impulses.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

OP- you are seeing the fog unfold before your very eyes. Full on. JCD is still engulfed in it. 

Seriously, JCD do get some counseling otherwise your R has no chance in hell. You are still actively, denying, blameshifting and TT'ing. Not being an ass here, Im serious. Youre still not seeing the forest for the trees. If you want R, you have to move out of this.


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

JCD said:


> Perhaps it was cowardice. I could just as easily imply that 'faithful' spouse don't have integrity. They just lack courage too.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes, you could. And in many cases you would be right. Cowardice on both sides. Lack of integrity on both sides.

But lying and cheating on both sides? Can you say that?


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## life101 (Nov 18, 2012)

JCD said:


> Perhaps it was cowardice. I could just as easily imply that 'faithful' spouse don't have integrity. They just lack courage to act on their impulses.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Or, some of us have something that many people don't: a backbone.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

life101 said:


> Or, some of us have something that many people don't: a backbone.


Ah...so if YOU do the right thing, you are FULL of integrity, spine, and what not, while if _I_ do the right thing, it's because I don't have the courage to actually fulfill my base and slimy tendencies.

Certainly it's not because you live in fear of social reproval.

Sorry, you don't get it both ways.

Or perhaps it's love of moral superiority. Self righteousness is addictive too...

Just saying.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Cedarman said:


> Yes, you could. And in many cases you would be right. Cowardice on both sides. Lack of integrity on both sides.
> 
> But lying and cheating on both sides? Can you say that?


How could I? I'm a rational person.

But...cheating...you take the easy road of defining cheating as penis in vagina or heart with other woman.

Cheating doesn't seem to encompass cheating your spouse of time because you are SO BUSY WORKING, or affection because you (generic) aren't big on that kind of stuff.

A man (or woman) who works 90 hours a week, comes home and sleeps, or hangs with friends or does their hobbies because 'honey I've been WORKING all week...let me enjoy my down time' is certainly cheating his/her spouse out of quite a bit.

Now...as said, the EASY answer is 'why not just leave'? I've already answered that and have yet to see an effective rebuttal.


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

JCD said:


> How could I? I'm a rational person.
> 
> But...cheating...you take the easy road of defining cheating as penis in vagina or heart with other woman.
> 
> ...



Of course cheating would not encompass cheating your spouse of your time working or hanging out with friends - unless you were doing it SECRETLY and lying about it. Eg: "Bye honey - I'm off to the PC to sext for hours with my EA partner" when in reality you are going to work a second job to make your 90 hours. THAT's cheating.

Cheating involves deception. Neglect does not necessarily involve deception. It involves.... neglect. Make no mistake, neglect is bad and damaging. But it is not cheating, nor is it an excuse for cheating.


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

JCD said:


> Now...as said, the EASY answer is 'why not just leave'? I've already answered that and have yet to see an effective rebuttal.



It's NOT the easy answer. It's the hard answer. It takes guts and courage to leave a relationship. Even more guts to sit down and discuss problems and see if you can work things out together as a couple.

Cheating is the easy answer.


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

Cedarman said:


> It's NOT the easy answer. It's the hard answer. It takes guts and courage to leave a relationship. Even more guts to sit down and discuss problems and see if you can work things out together as a couple.


So are you saying that when a BS has been told about their neglect and chooses to rug sweep the issue rather than work things out as a couple, that they have taken the easy way out?


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

Acorn said:


> So are you saying that when a BS has been told about their neglect and chooses to rug sweep the issue rather than work things out as a couple, that they have taken the easy way out?




Yes. They are taking an easy way out. You and JCD seem to think that people are making excuses for the BS. That is not the case - certainly for me. 

Working on a marriage is a responsibility of BOTH. If one party is unwilling to work and rugsweeps, then the choice is simple. 

Leaving a relationship is hard in this case, make no mistake. It is a BIG step and a BIG decision.

By contrast, giving up, and having a secret affair (EA/PA) IS an easy way out and is a form of rugsweeping too, if you want to look at it that way. However, only cheating involves deception.


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

Cedarman said:


> However, only cheating involves deception.


I dunno.

"Honey, we never have time lately for each other."
"I promise, this weekend is all yours."

Friday night...

"I'm sorry, I have to work this weekend. Next weekend is all yours!"

Next Friday night...

"Hey, the guys are going hunting, but I promise the next weekend is all yours."

Sounds like deception to me.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

Acorn said:


> I dunno.
> 
> "Honey, we never have time lately for each other."
> "I promise, this weekend is all yours."
> ...


nope. Thats neglect. Deception is if he said "the guys are going hunting so maybe next weekend" and then spent the weekend with OW then came home acting like he was hunting all weekend. THAT would be deception. What you are describing is pure neglect.


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## life101 (Nov 18, 2012)

JCD said:


> Ah...so if YOU do the right thing, you are FULL of integrity, spine, and what not, while if _I_ do the right thing, it's because I don't have the courage to actually fulfill my base and slimy tendencies.
> 
> Certainly it's not because you live in fear of social reproval.
> 
> ...


I replied to your very specific quote. If I understand correctly, you had an EA and you are a WS. How having an EA is NOT acting out on impulses, and instead is the right thing?

And believe me, the last thing I want in this world is to prove that I am morally superior to anyone. I guess that goes for most of the posters here. Sorry if our moral compass is not broken to support cheating behavior.

I agree with CTY. We are seeing the live example of fog here.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Cedarman said:


> Yes. They are taking an easy way out. You and JCD seem to think that people are making excuses for the BS. That is not the case - certainly for me.
> 
> Working on a marriage is a responsibility of BOTH. If one party is unwilling to work and rugsweeps, then the choice is simple.
> 
> ...


Let me say that you are actually addressing these issues IMO maturely.

Yes, both sides can be foggy. You say neglect, I say cheating, but it's the same damage so it's semantics. I'll go with your word of neglect to clarify the issue.

And there IS a big difference. But the pain of knowing you can never compete with a 'job' is almost as hurtful as the knowledge you can't compete with a 'woman/man'. One is stealing one's...essence from the spouse. One's energy and devotion and giving it away. That is it an institution rather than a person doesn't make much of a difference. Look at the divorce rates of cops, pilots and the military, where devotion to one's field is rather high.


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

canttrustu said:


> nope. Thats neglect. Deception is if he said "the guys are going hunting so maybe next weekend" and then spent the weekend with OW then came home acting like he was hunting all weekend. THAT would be deception. What you are describing is pure neglect.


Yes, agreed. 

There is a difference between neglect/laziness/indifference and deception/cheating. And even if there wasn't a difference the answer to any of them should NOT be cheating/deception.

ALL are bad and hurt a marriage, no question. Neglect/laziness/indifference - all can be addressed and make a marriage stronger and better. Only cheating involves lies and deceptions - which don't just hurt a marriage - they kill trust. Even if a marriage survives in a new form, it will never recover the same level of trust.


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

JCD said:


> Let me say that you are actually addressing these issues IMO maturely.
> 
> Yes, both sides can be foggy. You say neglect, I say cheating, but it's the same damage so it's semantics. I'll go with your word of neglect to clarify the issue.
> 
> And there IS a big difference. But the pain of knowing you can never compete with a 'job' is almost as hurtful as the knowledge you can't compete with a 'woman/man'. One is stealing one's...essence from the spouse. One's energy and devotion and giving it away. That is it an institution rather than a person doesn't make much of a difference. Look at the divorce rates of cops, pilots and the military, where devotion to one's field is rather high.




You keep talking about the pain of knowing (eg - the pain of knowing you can't compete with a job). The whole basis of the destructive nature of cheating is the pain of NOT KNOWING.


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

JCD said:


> Look at the divorce rates of cops, pilots and the military, where devotion to one's field is rather high.


Unless you are making the implication that all of the divorces in thes fields are due to cheating, it's a rather silly observation.

There are many reasons to divorce. Cheating is one of them.

In fact, it would be better to separate/divorce vs cheat. That has been the whole point - which you have missed.


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

canttrustu said:


> nope. Thats neglect. Deception is if he said "the guys are going hunting so maybe next weekend" and then spent the weekend with OW then came home acting like he was hunting all weekend. THAT would be deception. What you are describing is pure neglect.


No offense, but you are rationalizing here.

If you tell me that you will spend time with me this weekend, and then you choose to go hunting with the guys, you have deceived me. You led me to believe something that was false. 
This is by definition. 

It certainly is neglect too, but neglect would have been to just tell me in the first place that you were planning on leaving me behind this weekend (honesty) and then leaving me behind (neglect).


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## Calibre12 (Nov 27, 2012)

All screws take place in the mind. The PA only adds 3D touch, visual, and audio in an attempt to match the fantasy fvck that was playing on repeat in the mind before act. That's the biggest part of the fog. After the consummation, the fog takes on a different dimension depending on the presumed quality of the initial act. That alone has the power to clear the fog and immediately dry up the greener grass or not.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

life101 said:


> I replied to your very specific quote. If I understand correctly, you had an EA and you are a WS. How having an EA is NOT acting out on impulses, and instead is the right thing?
> 
> And believe me, the last thing I want in this world is to prove that I am morally superior to anyone. I guess that goes for most of the posters here. Sorry if our moral compass is not broken to support cheating behavior.
> 
> I agree with CTY. We are seeing the live example of fog here.


Please outline where I _*supported*_ cheating behavior.

I have been consistent in my message. It is not 'one size fits all' and it's uncomfortable because it puts SOME, not all but SOME blame of the problems which lead to cheating onto the BS. That SOME, not all, but SOME BS's WILLFULLY don't deal with the problems brought up by their spouses...leaving them with what? Divorce? Loveless marriages?

This is hardly 'cheer leading' infidelity. It is pointing out that IF some spouses fall...well, some of them got a little push.

This, naturally, is TAM CWI heresy. That doesn't make it false, it makes it heresy.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

Acorn said:


> No offense, but you are rationalizing here.
> 
> If you tell me that you will spend time with me this weekend, and then you choose to go hunting with the guys, you have deceived me. You led me to believe something that was false.
> This is by definition.
> ...


No. He could have changed his mind. Not ok but still could have happened. You have no proof he set out to lie to you as in the case of a cheater who sets out to see the AP telling the BS they are going hunting. 

Its funny to hear a WS accuse a BS of rationalizing. Thanks. Gave me a chuckle. So its your assertation that if your H hadnt gone hunting that you'd have been a faithful wife???? Did you tell him point blank "next time I wont be here when you get back" ??? That would have been an up front and honest thing to do instead of waiting until the next time and getting yourself a boyfriend, dont ya think? No offense.


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## Calibre12 (Nov 27, 2012)

JCD said:


> Please outline where I _*supported*_ cheating behavior.
> 
> I have been consistent in my message. It is not 'one size fits all' and it's uncomfortable because it puts SOME, not all but SOME blame of the problems which lead to cheating onto the BS. That SOME, not all, but SOME BS's WILLFULLY don't deal with the problems brought up by their spouses...leaving them with what? Divorce? Loveless marriages?
> 
> ...


Heresy? You need this defogging, that's why you are here.


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## bigtone128 (May 1, 2012)

JCD said:


> As Ovid said, this stuff sneaks up on you.
> 
> *oh you are a victim now?*
> they never intended this, but it came out of nowhere and suddenly we were making choices that we can't believe we made after the fact.
> ...


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

JCD said:


> I have been consistent in my message. It is not 'one size fits all' and it's uncomfortable because it puts SOME, not all but SOME blame of the problems which lead to cheating onto the BS. That SOME, not all, but SOME BS's WILLFULLY don't deal with the problems brought up by their spouses...leaving them with what? Divorce? Loveless marriages?
> 
> This is hardly 'cheer leading' infidelity. It is pointing out that IF some spouses fall...well, some of them got a little push.
> 
> This, naturally, is TAM CWI heresy. That doesn't make it false, it makes it heresy.


No. There may be a push. In many cases it is a hard push. But it is a push AWAY. Not a push to cheat. In fact, a cheating spouse is resisting against the push away and does so with deception. For whatever reason (cowardice, cold feet, cake eating) they do not want to be pushed away. So they cheat and stay in the marriage. THAT is what is wrong.

This is not about cause and effect - this is about character and making choices which reflect upon your character. If one spouse is lazy, neglectful, indifferent - nobody is saying those are good character traits. Nobody is advocating staying in a loveless marriage. But cheating involves abandoning your own character because you do not have what it takes to do the right thing (i.e. leave) - so the lies and deceptions begin. 

Blaming others for your choices (when you had multiple choices) is a sign that you have not taken ownership of your own decisions.


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

canttrustu said:


> No. He could have changed his mind. Not ok but still could have happened. You have no proof he set out to lie to you as in the case of a cheater who sets out to see the AP telling the BS they are going hunting.
> 
> Its funny to hear a WS accuse a BS of rationalizing. Thanks. Gave me a chuckle. So its your assertation that if your H hadnt gone hunting that you'd have been a faithful wife???? Did you tell him point blank "next time I wont be here when you get back" ??? That would have been an up front and honest thing to do instead of waiting until the next time and getting yourself a boyfriend, dont ya think? No offense.


I'm male, I'm not a WS, and I've been the one cheated on in a LTR. Please calm down and don't project on to me. Thanks.

I can try to find common ground with you in that the spouse who deceived their spouse into thinking the weekend would be for them may not have ever meant to "lie" (your word) to their spouse. Maybe they really wanted to stay faithful to their pledge to spend the weekend with them, and they didn't go out looking for a hunting trip, but one just came along and they took it. 

It's called rationalizing and BOTH BS and WS do it.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

Acorn said:


> I'm male, I'm not a WS, and I've been the one cheated on in a LTR. Please calm down and don't project on to me. Thanks.
> 
> I can try to find common ground with you in that the spouse who deceived their spouse into thinking the weekend would be for them may not have ever meant to "lie" (your word) to their spouse. Maybe they really wanted to stay faithful to their pledge to spend the weekend with them, and they didn't go out looking for a hunting trip, but one just came along and they took it.
> 
> It's called rationalizing and BOTH BS and WS do it.


my apologies. I think I confused you with another poster.


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## life101 (Nov 18, 2012)

JCD said:


> Please outline where I _*supported*_ cheating behavior.
> 
> I have been consistent in my message. *It is not 'one size fits all' and it's uncomfortable because it puts SOME, not all but SOME blame of the problems which lead to cheating onto the BS. * That SOME, not all, but SOME BS's WILLFULLY don't deal with the problems brought up by their spouses...leaving them with what? Divorce? Loveless marriages?
> 
> ...


Sigh... bolded part...

Choices, that we are dealing with here, are either morally right or wrong. Nothing in between, no shade of grey, no dark knight kind of decision making. It is a simple black and white choice. If it is bad enough, just leave. Being in a committed relationship and cheating is not OK, and then rationalizing cheating behavior is adding salt to injury.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

The thing that gets me is that the Ws has all these excuses for why they cheated yet when they are busted they fight like hell to keep the BS that in their opinion, was such an ass to be married to that they had to go outside the marriage to get what they needed. Always confuses me. Often that BS, the one the wayward accuses of being neglectful and lazy etc is the very SAME spouse that the WS will kill to keep?????? So to me that negates all the vomitus you spewed while in your A. Otherwise, when given the opportunity to leave and be happy why dont they take it if life with the betrayed was so damned bad?


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## AnnieAsh (Aug 22, 2012)

life101 said:


> Please enlighten me if any of this counts for neglect...
> 
> 1. Translating a whole book for her so that she can get a good grade, sacrificing my own studies.
> 
> ...


Your marriage and mine are VASTLY different. I am very sorry that was your experience.


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## Pandakiss (Oct 29, 2010)

I think I might kinda sorta agree with a little of what JCD is talking about. I do agree with not R the old marriage. If both people are unhappy then why work back to a place where it wasn't happy. It should be a newer better marriage. With communication and wants and needs of both parties are addressed. 

On a side note. Years....not months but years after my cheating my husband and I were talking it out (we are always talking it out) he said he owns up to part of the problems. He said he didn't make me do anything, but he didn't make it hard not to. 

I told him I disagreed, but he said its 2 of us in the relationship. We talked about lack of communication and feelings. I always disagreed that he did anything wrong. He said so I didn't cheat then. I did but I don't have any solid reasoning. This was a convo from 5 or more years ago. Maybe 8 years. 

The point is, he said it. Not me. I didn't and can't make the call that he had any wrong doing. I cheated therefore I null and void being the one to point fingers at anyone but myself.


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## bigtone128 (May 1, 2012)

Pandakiss said:


> I think I might kinda sorta agree with a little of what JCD is talking about. I do agree with not R the old marriage. If both people are unhappy then why work back to a place where it wasn't happy. It should be a newer better marriage. With communication and wants and needs of both parties are addressed.
> 
> On a side note. Years....not months but years after my cheating my husband and I were talking it out (we are always talking it out) he said he owns up to part of the problems. He said he didn't make me do anything, but he didn't make it hard not to.
> 
> ...


He is being gracious - which is nice...shows he has forgiven you and worked through it...for my ex and me, after her EA and after about 1 year, I started to see why she was unhappy with me and our relationship and told her as such...I told her that I could understand why she chose to pursue another man..that 26 years with one person and his habits, annoyances etc., would be enough to make one slightly curious...I was in a good place. BUT I did not realize or challenge her character issues about being sneaky and dishonest....thus the physical affair and end of our marriage....truth be known...I loved her...sad for her.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

JCD said:


> Perhaps it was cowardice. I could just as easily imply that 'faithful' spouse don't have integrity. They just lack courage to act on their impulses.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I read this thread up until this point.

JCD, you are full of it. 

Good for you for not taking your affair further, but stop. Just stop. 

The BS' stories are broad and varied. They're not all like yours or Annie's. 

Many of us have spouses or ex's who claimed they made all the necessary 'attempts' before cheating. Oftentimes, that's just a load of garbage. Why? Because real 'attempts' would have been explicit. They would have left no room for misunderstanding. 

There's always an element of hiding on the WS's part. 

They think they are 'ringing the bell' to wake up their spouse but it's really a controlled way of shaking things up. Their way. Because they have an OW/OM waiting in the wings. So it's often not an honest or direct approach. 

Just face it. If you had ever said early on that "There's someone else in the picture, or there's about to be someone else..", your spouse would have had a real reaction. The point is that WS's are often too cowardly to come out with the real truth of what they are scheming. 

'Nuff said.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

bigtone128 said:


> He is being gracious - which is nice...shows he has forgiven you and worked through it...for my ex and me, after her EA and after about 1 year, I started to see why she was unhappy with me and our relationship and told her as such...I told her that I could understand why she chose to pursue another man..that 26 years with one person and his habits, annoyances etc., would be enough to make one slightly curious...I was in a good place. BUT I did not realize or challenge her character issues about being sneaky and dishonest....thus the physical affair and end of our marriage....*truth be known...I loved her...sad for her*.



Wow. This just made me very sad. If they only knew how incredibly stupid what they are doing is. If they only knew what teh price would be. They sacrifice true love for rainbows and unicorns. Its a shame.

Hope youre doing well now.


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## bigtone128 (May 1, 2012)

canttrustu said:


> Wow. This just made me very sad. If they only knew how incredibly stupid what they are doing is. If they only knew what teh price would be. They sacrifice true love for rainbows and unicorns. Its a shame.
> 
> Hope youre doing well now.


Thanks canttrustu - well doing better now its been 9 months - it is like everyone around them sees a train wreck and they ae hell bent on being on the train..still love her but know I cant take her back..my ex was one hell bent on leather to prove a point - and her point being that she is right and all the little annoyances of living with me she was right about. She used to say over and over again that I would never find anyone like her.....which is true because we are all unique - but whenever I would say to her - you will never find anyone like me either - it is like she could not comprehend this. 

I am okay but miss family - it is like someone would take their whole life and build something only to destroy it...it is illogical.....


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

bigtone128 said:


> Thanks canttrustu - well doing better now its been 9 months - it is like everyone around them sees a train wreck and they ae hell bent on being on the train..still love her but know I cant take her back..my ex was one hell bent on leather to prove a point - and her point being that she is right and all the little annoyances of living with me she was right about. She used to say over and over again that I would never find anyone like her.....which is true because we are all unique - but whenever I would say to her - you will never find anyone like me either - it is like she could not comprehend this.
> 
> I am okay but miss family - it is like someone would take their whole life and build something only to destroy it...it is illogical.....


There is no logic in the wayward in my experience. Not for a good long time. takes a long time for that fog to lift and them to take a deep breath of fresh air and get some oxygen to that coked up brain of theirs.

I understand not being able to R. I truly do. Its a hell of a road. Just as D is. Ive done both. My experience is that the D was easier but then I was teh one who wanted it so...But R just blows, especially in the beginning when you dont recognize your spouse anymore. I am only in the very recent mos seeing the man I married resurfacing....this is his only shot. One more veer off the road and Im out. He is very aware that he has lived 8 of his 9 lives already.

Best of luck. Hang in there. You'll find someone worthy of you and your little annoyances.


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## bigtone128 (May 1, 2012)

Thanks Cant, no logic is so true - she was so critical of others who had affairs and used to say - love is a decision, a choice. 
I could not reconcile - I would try for my boys if it arose because I know even though they are older they are ahppier when we were together - but she would have to really pull the load for a long time - something she would be unwilling to do.

I get what you say about not recognizing them anymore - my first taste of this was in her emails to me - and i said to her i do not know who this is - i thought someone was writing them for her (which could have been) and at my son's graduation - I really did not know who she was - i mena same person physically but totally different - pretenscious, arrogant, etc..

I said I would be out after her EA.

Doing fine - will find someone but do not want troubles. I truly love women so it wont be hard - it is the sadness i do not like.

Plus I feel protective of her - and the crash that is coming her way but cant help her...


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## life101 (Nov 18, 2012)

bigtone128 said:


> Thanks Cant, no logic is so true - *she was so critical of others who had affairs and used to say - love is a decision, a choice. *
> I could not reconcile - I would try for my boys if it arose because I know even though they are older they are ahppier when we were together - but she would have to really pull the load for a long time - something she would be unwilling to do.
> 
> I get what you say about not recognizing them anymore - *my first taste of this was in her emails to me - and i said to her i do not know who this is* - i thought someone was writing them for her (which could have been) and at my son's graduation - I really did not know who she was - i mena same person physically but totally different - pretenscious, arrogant, etc..
> ...


This.
When I talk to my STBXW now, I cannot see the person I fell in love with and married anymore. She has been replaced by someone arrogant, obnoxious, and pretentious as hell. Even her tone and voice are different! I never realized a person could change her behavior in this manner. And she used to be so critical of cheaters too...


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## bigtone128 (May 1, 2012)

life101 said:


> This.
> When I talk to my STBXW now, I cannot see the person I fell in love with and married anymore. She has been replaced by someone arrogant, obnoxious, and pretentious as hell. Even her tone and voice are different! I never realized a person could change her behavior in this manner. And she used to be so critical of cheaters too...


Well when I first came to this site - they said she is not the same person and I personally did not believe them until I saw her at my son's graduation and it was like night and day from the person I knew. As a matter of fact, our oldest son said when he saw her after having the affair, "I do not know what is up with her, but something is different about her."


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## SkaterDad (Aug 21, 2012)

bigtone128 said:


> Thanks canttrustu - well doing better now its been 9 months - it is like everyone around them sees a train wreck and they ae hell bent on being on the train..still love her but know I cant take her back..my ex was one hell bent on leather to prove a point - and her point being that she is right and all the little annoyances of living with me she was right about. She used to say over and over again that I would never find anyone like her.....which is true because we are all unique - but whenever I would say to her - you will never find anyone like me either - it is like she could not comprehend this.
> 
> I am okay but miss family - it is like someone would take their whole life and build something only to destroy it...it is illogical.....



man, more similarities in the WS. but add, "you deserve someone better, I love you but I know in my truest of hearts this is better for all of us" and I still love her, like a fool, but moving on unless, like you said, she pulls her weight


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