# Time for Professional Help? - Need Opinions



## PaulNS954 (6 mo ago)

Hello everyone. This is my first time seeking advice for my marriage because im generally an introverted and private person that prefers to handles matters internally. However, I also know that advice from others looking from the outside are invaluable. In any case, I feel like I have a great marriage and I love my wife and the family we've built. 

My Wife and I have been together for about 17 Years, and we've been married for about 10 of those years. We have two children, a 2 YO, and a 7YO. I own my own professional business which requires me to work pretty often (about 50-55 hours / week) and even when im on vacation, I still have to attend to my email because my occupation requires me to be available. My wife is a homemaker and generally always has been since a couple years after my son was born. I make very good money and im able to provide for the family, very comfortably. 

Im a very "Type A" personality, and my wife is very "Type B". For example, disorganization makes me extremely anxious and im not able to focus or think clearly when things or un-organized. Being in a disorganized place is literally like nails on a chalkboard to me. I prefer to not buy stuff, and if I do buy things then I generally like to donate or throw other things out because I feel like im suffocating otherwise. 

*Example Issues:*
_Please note that I was raised by a widowed grandmother and a single mother and my up-bringing was very old school italian which basically meant the Men worked, and the Women did everything else. I grew up extremely poor and im pretty hyper-aware of myself. An un-balanced work load isnt fair in my opinion and this isnt my goal and not how I think. When there are two people that work full time, the men need to help just as much, in my opinion. _

My wife is constantly complaining at me about how difficult of a time she has keeping the home clean and getting things done. Originally it started with the laundry and this little story is a good representation of how things go. 

As I stated, it started with the laundry and I agreed that it was a daunting task so I told her that maybe it should be done every other day instead of once per week. She agreed, but it never happened. I then told her that I would start doing my own laundry, fold it, and put it away. I simply cannot do her laundry and the kids because I dont do it right, according to her but I wanted to do my own to shift a little of the burden. I started doing this but she oddly enough took this as an insult so then I stopped doing it, at her (indirect) request. She said that once the kids were in school then she would have more time to do it. I patiently waited until that day came, but nothing changed. Then, I told her to hire a nanny to watch the kids for a few hours to get things done. She agreed, and we did, but then she didnt like the nanny so we (She) fired her. Eventually, I found a laundry service which is basically a lady we hired to come to the house, pick up the dirty clothes off of the door step, and she returns them washed, folded, and back in the basket. This is working out GREAT except now she doesn't put the clothes away, so then the clothes get all wrinkled. 

We have the same issue with keeping the house clean and went through the same exact experience as the laundry which eventually ended in us hiring a cleaning lady that comes EVERY week to clean the entire house. 

I've tried coming up with ways for us to keep the home clean together, but it doesent seem to help. When I take care of the kids, I put their toys out of reach and keep the home cleaned all day so that I dont have to watch it being destroyed. When she takes care of the kids, she puts the entire toy basket down which then leads to the entire home being destroyed. Therefore, when I come home from work, its so overwhelming that I dont even try to deal with it. When she cooks dinner, the entire kitchen looks like it exploded with every ingredient left out. When I cook (not often anymore), I clean as I go and leave minimal mess. By the time dinner is done, everything is back (for me).

*Problem*
None of the house chores are kept up with which eventually ends up with us arguing and screaming. We simply cannot communicate with each other and when I even make a hint that the house needs to be kept up with, she bites my head off. Im a big believer in consuming knowledge several years ago I read "_The 7 languages of Love_" and I asked her to read it as well, but she never did. We were having discipline issues with my Son (Still are), so I read and listened to "1-2-3 magic" (GREAT BOOK) and we implemented it but she never read the book despite me buying her an audiobook, and the print version, and offered to watch the kids so she could read it, but she never did. I also told her that I would like to speak with someone to help us communicate with eachother, but that doesent seem to go anywhere and if we cant talk to eachother then we're never going to solve any problem. She tends to stereotype me and complains about me to her friends, and I told her she shouldn't do that because none of her other friends can relate because they cant afford to essentially hire a house-keeping staff like us, and they're probably making fun of her.

*Summary*
She tends to always find some sort of excuse why everything is my fault which drives me nuts. When she says the problem is "X", I solve Problem "X" (usually with money) and then suddenly the problem is "Y".., as so on. I frequently take the family on vacation (Im literally typing this on vacation, in a location that most people will never be able to go to) and I just wanted a little time to work and I cant even get help with that. Everything always seems to be... Me.

Just FYI: A few months back I worked from the house. Eventually I came out of my home office and saw her swinging in our hammock chair, ordering stuff from Amazon. This infuriated me because my job is so time consuming and stressful. When I come home from work I feel like I mentally fell down a flight of stairs. I push myself to the absolute mental limit to get through my work day and seeing her sit on that swing with the house a mess is what started me to seek professional help before I become completely resentful. 


*Question: *
What do I do next because i've exhausted all ideas and nothing works and I dont want our marriage to be the typical statistic and life is so much easier when you can get along with each other.? I refuse to let my kids grow up in a broken home like I did so I will do anything neccesary - even type my problems on an internet forum to people i've never met. 

Thank You all so much!


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## LeGenDary_Man (Sep 25, 2013)

1. Can you arrange a [regular] maid to support your wife in managing your house?

2. Is your wife under stress due to kids? Are your kids extremely playful and messy?

3. Have you checked your wife's phone to see with whom she is socializing? Any friend who might be filling her head?

_"Eventually I came out of my home office and saw her swinging in our hammock chair, ordering stuff from Amazon. This infuriated me because my job is so time consuming and stressful."_

Why did this infuriate you? She is not allowed to order stuff from Amazon?


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

PaulNS954 said:


> My wife is constantly complaining at me about how difficult of a time she has keeping the home clean and getting things done.





PaulNS954 said:


> I found a laundry service which is basically a lady we hired to come to the house, pick up the dirty clothes off of the door step,





PaulNS954 said:


> us hiring a cleaning lady that comes EVERY week to clean the entire house.


So what exactly does your wife do that makes it so hard for her to "get things done"? Someone else does the laundry. Someone else cleans the house on a weekly basis. And she's still complaining. So is she just a lazy slob? A chronic complainer? An entitled princess? Suffering from depression?

I am coming at this from my perspective. Like you, I get anxious around clutter and disorganization, which is why my house has NO clutter and is well organized (and clean). But that's me.

Dispense with the arguing. It's getting you nowhere. Your wife tells you she'll change, but my guess is that's to get you to leave her alone.

P.S. - My guess is your wife is generally unhappy with the marriage, thus her reason for saying everything short of Original Sin is your fault. How do you feel about the marriage as a whole?


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Absent some psychological problem you’re not describing here, it sounds like you’re being taken for a ride. If your wife’s whole job is kids and home, she needs to do it. She isn’t. You’re not her servant, so stop acting like it.

She either needs to get a job or keep the house clean. I suspect she knows you’re against divorce and believes that means she can do anything (or nothing) and you won’t do anything about it. Is this the example you want set for your kids of how marriage works? She needs to get a job. She can either do the job she has now or get a new one. Tell her you’re done and she can fix this or you will, but if you fix it she will be on her own because this is unsustainable.


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## PaulNS954 (6 mo ago)

TexasMom1216 said:


> Absent some psychological problem you’re not describing here, it sounds like you’re being taken for a ride. If your wife’s whole job is kids and home, she needs to do it. She isn’t. You’re not her servant, so stop acting like it.
> 
> She either needs to get a job or keep the house clean. I suspect she knows you’re against divorce and believes that means she can do anything (or nothing) and you won’t do anything about it. Is this the example you want set for your kids of how marriage works? She needs to get a job. She can either do the job she has now or get a new one. Tell her you’re done and she can fix this or you will, but if you fix it she will be on her own because this is unsustainable.


Thanks for this. The way I see it is that every day I wake up, I have a clear purpose and I have a set of goals and I kill myself to accomplish these goals. In my opinion, she has nothing PUSHING her to accomplish the goals. For example, if I don’t get stuff done at my job then I will lose a client and income whereas if she doesent get things done then maybe she will just try to do it tomorrow but if not tomorrow, then maybe the next day. My goals are rigid and time sensitive and hers are very pliable, in her mind. 

It’s hard for me to speak up because I’m going to sound like her boss and an insensitive jerk because that’s the stereotype of todays society. 

she doesent have any signs of depression in the classical sense.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

PaulNS954 said:


> Thanks for this. The way I see it is that every day I wake up, I have a clear purpose and I have a set of goals and I kill myself to accomplish these goals. In my opinion, she has nothing PUSHING her to accomplish the goals. For example, if I don’t get stuff done at my job then I will lose a client and income whereas if she doesent get things done then maybe she will just try to do it tomorrow but if not tomorrow, then maybe the next day. My goals are rigid and time sensitive and hers are very pliable, in her mind.
> 
> It’s hard for me to speak up because I’m going to sound like her boss and an insensitive jerk because that’s the stereotype of todays society.
> 
> she doesent have any signs of depression in the classical sense.


When you’re part of a team at work, everyone has to do their part or the job doesn’t get done. You’re probably on to something about complacency. Honestly, being a cook and housekeeper is hardly challenging work. She may feel that it’s pointless and thankless, because in large part it is. You can work all day, really hard, and by evening it’s like nothing was done. It’s boring and gross and necessary. I get that. But her reaction is NOT ok. If she’s struggling with staying at home, fine, say that and talk to you, her teammate, about how she can be a better team player. Even if she works just to pay the housekeeper, at least she’s out of the house with things to do and will be happier. She is dumping everything at your feet to “fix.” That isn’t fair. This isn’t about being her boss, it’s that she isn’t your boss and she has to do her part. Lounging about shopping is NOT what we’re here to do. Depending on how long this has been going on it may take a dust up to get her attention. That’s going to fall on you, which sucks because right now you’re doing everything. You have to stand up for yourself though. This will just keep getting worse if you don’t.


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## PaulNS954 (6 mo ago)

LeGenDary_Man said:


> 1. Can you arrange a [regular] maid to support your wife in managing your house?
> 
> 2. Is your wife under stress due to kids? Are your kids extremely playful and messy?
> 
> ...


I have a regular maid (weekly).If I hired her every day then I would just be an enabler at that point.

my Son is genuinely a complete handful. We’re pretty sure he has ADD which makes him more of a handful. When I’m with him, I’m very stern but calm with him but she generally just lets him do what he wants and yells at him all day. In any case, some times things are hard and you have to find a way to deal with it. Not everything is fair and not all kids are angels.

i don’t want to check her phone because I feel like that’s out of line. She does socialize with a friend of hers (sort of mutual friend) and that friend does nothing but complain about everything, especially her husband. I told her it’s not good for our marriage to talk with this friend.

you may have missed what I was saying. She says she’s busy cleaning up after the kids all day and doing stuff and then the one day I stay home, she spent hours on the hammock shopping and the house was a mess. This would be like me going to work and playing solitaire all day.


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## PaulNS954 (6 mo ago)

Prodigal said:


> So what exactly does your wife do that makes it so hard for her to "get things done"? Someone else does the laundry. Someone else cleans the house on a weekly basis. And she's still complaining. So is she just a lazy slob? A chronic complainer? An entitled princess? Suffering from depression?
> 
> I am coming at this from my perspective. Like you, I get anxious around clutter and disorganization, which is why my house has NO clutter and is well organized (and clean). But that's me.
> 
> ...


She always complains about the kids messing everything but my son goes to school almost the entire day (From 8:45 to 3:00) and my daughter goes to day care from about 9AM to 2:30. 

I agree. I havent ever found arguing to accomplish anything because we just talk at eachother instead of to eachother. I try to listen instead of being defensive but that doesent work unless both people do it. 

We have an excellent marriage outside of homelife but thats because Im good at being in uncomofortable situations for prolonged periods of time. I simply just dont quit anything. Many of our friends have gotten divorced and our friends are envious of our marriage because I work hard to inject a lot of humor and I dont hold anything back from her, generally speaking and I feel like saying whats on your mind is better then keeping it in. I keep telling her that if she acts like her unhappy *****y friends that complain about their husbands then we will end up just like them. 

To add to all this, shes very clingy and I prefer to do things by myself. Any time I do something she wants to be with me but sometimes I just need my own space.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

I always hate to see someone have to start treating your spouse like a child, but you might talk about making an eraser board with goals for each day on it and trying to get her to agree to keep up with that. You would put stuff on there for yourself to do as well. 

I am a lazy housekeeper myself and my only saving grace is that I don't have kids or anyone else in the household to clean up after except my dog. What I learned over the years is to not clutter it up to begin with so that I don't have to clean house very often. And these days I definitely have it done but not very often. 

I hate clutter in my living space although I have a junk/clothes room when it's a free for all. Let's see I would never be able to stand having kid toys all over the house. You guys are opposite in that that sort of stuff makes you feel suffocated like it does me, but it doesn't bother her in the least. 

You might also take her into marriage counseling. She needs to understand the impact that this is having. 

I'm certain taking care of a child is already exhausting and taking care of one with ADD is doubly exhausting so I don't really be grudge for getting in the hammock whenever she can, but she just is not prioritizing getting what needs to be done done. I don't know that you'll be able to change her.

But she should be able to do at least the bare minimum to keep the household running in between the housekeepers. If she doesn't and you're dead set on staying in the marriage, then you may just have to start having housekeepers come more often. Like maybe in the afternoon before you get home from work so you could at least come home to a clean house before she messed it up again.


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## LeGenDary_Man (Sep 25, 2013)

PaulNS954 said:


> I have a regular maid (weekly).If I hired her every day then I would just be an enabler at that point.


I understand.

You hired this maid to clean your house ONCE per week, right? Will you feel better if you make this TWICE per week?

You should make some decisions for your own "peace of mind."



PaulNS954 said:


> my Son is genuinely a complete handful. We’re pretty sure he has ADD which makes him more of a handful. When I’m with him, I’m very stern but calm with him but she generally just lets him do what he wants and yells at him all day. In any case, some times things are hard and you have to find a way to deal with it. Not everything is fair and not all kids are angels.


I understand.

Your wife yelling at him (your son) all day is helpful? She might have to revisit her parenting strategy.



PaulNS954 said:


> i don’t want to check her phone because I feel like that’s out of line.


I am not sure why a husband assume that it is out-of-line to check his wife's phone.

Me and my wife - both have access to each other's phone. This is helpful communication dynamic.

Anyways, your marriage is in "troubling phase." You should find a way to check your wife's phone and have a look at her conversations with other people. You should check that your wife complains about YOU and your marriage (or) not. And with whom.

You will have a better view of your marital situation after checking her phone.



PaulNS954 said:


> She does socialize with a friend of hers (sort of mutual friend) and that friend does nothing but complain about everything, especially her husband. I told her it’s not good for our marriage to talk with this friend.


Well, this is a "problem."

Does your wife do the same as well? Complain about you and your marriage to her friend?

If this continues irrespective of your protests then you should inform this friend's husband. He should know so he can have some talks with his wife as well.



PaulNS954 said:


> you may have missed what I was saying. She says she’s busy cleaning up after the kids all day and doing stuff and then the one day I stay home, she spent hours on the hammock shopping and the house was a mess. This would be like me going to work and playing solitaire all day.


OK. Thanks for clarification.

Well, check her phone and provide an update.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

PaulNS954 said:


> We have an excellent marriage outside of homelife but thats because Im good at being in uncomofortable situations for prolonged periods of time.





PaulNS954 said:


> To add to all this, shes very clingy and I prefer to do things by myself.


Have to be honest with ya, I'd love to hear you wife's side to this. But, since I'm only getting your side, I'll give you my impression.

To begin with, I have no idea what you mean by an "excellent" marriage. You don't have anything positive to say about your wife. In fact, the impression I've gotten thus far is she's rather lazy at meeting your needs of a clean, tidy home. You don't mention if she does any cooking or grocery shopping, so for all I know, she orders carry-out every night.

Additionally, she's clingy, which isn't an attractive trait.

What you've described doesn't sound like an "excellent" marriage to me. Not by a long shot.

I can't figure out if you're playing the victim or the martyr when you say you're good at tolerating uncomfortable situations for a long time. What does that mean exactly? You're not going to get any trophies as Husband of the Year for tolerating crap. What you're going to get is a buildup of resentment.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

I would hate for you to resort to checking her phone and picking her friends for her. I can assure you if you’re trying to avoid a boss/employee or parent/child dynamic, monitoring her phone and forbidding her to have certain friends is not the way to do it. I would defer to a marriage counselor on that but it sets up an unhealthy dynamic that is very likely to destroy her trust in you. Plus, not for nothing, no one likes being treated like a child by another adult. You certainly wouldn’t, right? She needs to get it together, no doubt, but it sounds like you really love her and aren’t trying to dominate her. A counselor would be a HUGE help here, I bet.


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## LeGenDary_Man (Sep 25, 2013)

TexasMom1216 said:


> I would hate for you to resort to checking her phone and picking her friends for her. I can assure you if you’re trying to avoid a boss/employee or parent/child dynamic, monitoring her phone and forbidding her to have certain friends is not the way to do it. I would defer to a marriage counselor on that but it sets up an unhealthy dynamic that is very likely to destroy her trust in you. Plus, not for nothing, no one likes being treated like a child by another adult. You certainly wouldn’t, right? She needs to get it together, no doubt, but it sounds like you really love her and aren’t trying to dominate her. A counselor would be a HUGE help here, I bet.


Problem is that his wife is NOT cooperating with him. He have made multiple attempts to improve her work situation at home, and get her to read helpful books with him, to no avail.

So what he is supposed to do now?

There might be information in his wife's phone which might help him understand what is going on.


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## Bluesclues (Mar 30, 2016)

I am going to project here because reading this felt so close to home and not in a good way. My husband has OCD and living with him is just as you describe your life. It has been pure torture living with him at times. A “Type A” person doesn’t put their children’s toys out of reach to them because the mess they make playing with them upsets them - a person with a psychological disorder does that. When I dust I take a picture of where things are on my husband’s dresser so I can try to put them back exactly where they were and even then I am never spot on. A dish left in the sink because the dishwasher was full would send him over the edge. I dreaded him coming home because no matter how hard I tried i could not anticipate nor ever fulfill everything that would ease his OCD and at the same time have a true home for our children.

He also took on doing his own laundry. It does not lighten the load of the chore and is taken is an insult. Even when I would keep up with the laundry he would refold everything I folded. Um, I worked at the GAP in high school, I am literally trained in folding, but you do you.

Insult to injury was that I wasn’t a SAHM. I was the freaking breadwinner. I made the money and paid all the household bills with that money. I did the shopping, cooking, cleaning, kids activities. I too am a Type A personality, but about schedules, dates, appointments - just keeping everyone’s lives chugging on top of my demanding job. Add trying to manage his OCD to my list and I was done. I had taken on trying to do everything he needed to relieve his OCD and it only made me feel like a failure.

Fast forward, he gets a diagnosis of OCD and realizes it is his problem to deal with the uncomfortable feelings, not have the world conform to what he wants. But now I am depressed from the constant negative feedback loop for years and have a hard time getting even the basics done. I am working on it. Now it is on me.

Don’t ruin your kid’s childhoods with your pysch issues. Get help for your issues and let your kids play with their damn toys.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

This does not sound like a husband and wife marriage. 

It sounds like a nagging parent and defiant child relationship.


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## PaulNS954 (6 mo ago)

TexasMom1216 said:


> I would hate for you to resort to checking her phone and picking her friends for her. I can assure you if you’re trying to avoid a boss/employee or parent/child dynamic, monitoring her phone and forbidding her to have certain friends is not the way to do it. I would defer to a marriage counselor on that but it sets up an unhealthy dynamic that is very likely to destroy her trust in you. Plus, not for nothing, no one likes being treated like a child by another adult. You certainly wouldn’t, right? She needs to get it together, no doubt, but it sounds like you really love her and aren’t trying to dominate her. A counselor would be a HUGE help here, I bet.


Thanks. Yes, I never wanted to look through her phone because I feel like I’m spying on her. Sometimes she reads my texts and I hate it because I feel like it’s an intrusion. She basically just has the one friend and I feel like pointing out how miserable that friend is better than telling her she can’t have the friend. If anything, maybe she can tell her friend that complaining doesent help anyone and most her problems are probably her own fault.

I’ve never given her an ultimatum but I think I’m going to tell her I’m going to book us an appointment with a marriage counselor and if she wants to show up then great but if she doesent then that’s her choice. I feel like that’s a soft ultimatum that she pretty much has to agree to.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

I kind of agree with @Bluesclues above, you sound insufferable and I'm surprised she hasn't left you for her own peace of mind already. 

My wife has a touch of whatever issue you have whether it is OCD or just being a domineering jerk but not to your degree. 

One day in all seriousness I offered her that she should consider getting her own place. If she had her own place should could clean it to whatever specification that she wanted and the kids if she never invited the kids and I to her place, that nothing would ever get messed up or be out of place. 

I offered that we would not have to divorce if she didn't want to and that she could come visit the kids and I at our house any time she wanted and that if she were to invite us to her house, that we would be good house guests and do our best not to disturb anything or create any mess. 

The advantages of this arrangement is should could clean and scrub however many hours a day she wanted and noone would mess it up or upset her system. 

It would also offer to let the kids and I live our lives in peace even though there may be some laundry that doesn't get put away at the exact right time and we may have to live with the horror of a t-shirt that had a wrinkle somewhere on it. 

I even said we could still have date nights and even some weekly marital relations if she were able to bring herself to invite me into her bed or join me in mine and that if we had an overnight date planned I would make sure there was freshly laundered bedding that night. 

At first she thought I was just being an ass. But I was serious. We were each making each other miserable and the stress levels were getting to the breaking point. 

I think somewhere in there it dawned on her that the kids may very well choose to remain with me and despite whatever mental thing she has going on in her head, she was able to grasp the gravity of that scenario. 

It's still an issue, but she has toned it down and I try to do what I am able to help. 

I do encourage you to seriously consider the professional consultation, but don't be shocked if YOU are the one that gets referred to a mental health practitioner. 

We sought marital counseling from two different MCs and my wife went into it thinking that the MCs would get on me for night helping her enough and being supportive of her enough, but what ended up happening is within the very first session with each of them, they started questioning my wife about her mental health history and were urging her to seek mental health assessment. 

Now your wife has her own demons and challenges as well so I don't want this to come off as me pointing all fingers at you. But from the environment you are describing, It's hard to tell the chicken from the egg and I can personally attest that living with someone who is going to be critical of how laundry is put away and who would hide children's toys all day IS crazy-making. 

One of both of you likely has some issues in the head and the sooner those issues can be assessed and treated, the better off both of you and the kids will be.


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## PaulNS954 (6 mo ago)

Bluesclues said:


> I am going to project here because reading this felt so close to home and not in a good way. My husband has OCD and living with him is just as you describe your life. It has been pure torture living with him at times. A “Type A” person doesn’t put their children’s toys out of reach to them because the mess they make playing with them upsets them - a person with a psychological disorder does that. When I dust I take a picture of where things are on my husband’s dresser so I can try to put them back exactly where they were and even then I am never spot on. A dish left in the sink because the dishwasher was full would send him over the edge. I dreaded him coming home because no matter how hard I tried i could not anticipate nor ever fulfill everything that would ease his OCD and at the same time have a true home for our children.
> 
> He also took on doing his own laundry. It does not lighten the load of the chore and is taken is an insult. Even when I would keep up with the laundry he would refold everything I folded. Um, I worked at the GAP in high school, I am literally trained in folding, but you do you.
> 
> ...


I’m glad my post resonated with you. I don’t have OCD though and what you describe seems extreme.

My kids have a tremendous amount of toys and my daughter is 2 years old so she literally picks something up, walks with it, and then drops it and then repeats. As mentioned, my son seems to have some sort of ADHD and he needs constant stimulation and gets bored quickly so he pretty much does the same thing. For this reason, I prefer to keep the bulk of the toys out of their reach because they don’t play with them, they just pick them up and drop them and most of the toys are missing the pieces.

Important note; a while back, I asked my wife to try something and she agreed to it. I spoke with my son and he agreed as well. We basically took all of the toys and literally everything out of his room and I put everything in the garage. I gave him a note pad and told him he could write anything down on the note pad that he wanted from the garage and I would give it to him the next day and I told him I would return everything in 2 weeks if he wanted. After a few days, he was able to focus better on his homework and he kept his room CLEAN because it was easy to pick up. He even behaved better. Also, he only wrote 3 things on the list and then he told us he didn’t want all the stuff back because he liked his room the way it was. The toys are still in the garage but unfortunately new toys replaced those.. 

Toys doesent = love. They’re brief distractions. I grew up dirt poor and didn’t have many toys but the ones I had I took care of but I don’t remember any toys. I do remember good times and experiences I had though. Toys are just pushed on kids by commercials and advertising. They become a burden and overwhelming to kids from what I have experienced.


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## PaulNS954 (6 mo ago)

oldshirt said:


> I kind of agree with @Bluesclues above, you sound insufferable and I'm surprised she hasn't left you for her own peace of mind already.
> 
> My wife has a touch of whatever issue you have whether it is OCD or just being a domineering jerk but not to your degree.
> 
> ...


I really think you’re doing a lot of projecting here. I never said I have any OCD or that I demand a spotless home. I’m simply saying if you paint with the kids then clean up the paint when you’re done and don’t leave it for 6 days. Or, if you make dinner or lunch then don’t leave the perishable ingredients all over the counter for 3 hours…. There simply is not enough information in my post to jump to the conclusions you’ve reached. People that like to be organized become anxious that are in the company of people that don’t make organization a priority. There’s nothing medically wrong with either person nor a correct way, it’s a matter of preference. With that said, living like animals until the cleaning lady comes probably isn’t the best way to do things.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> We sought marital counseling from two different MCs and my wife went into it thinking that the MCs would get on me for night helping her enough and being supportive of her enough, but what ended up happening is within the very first session with each of them, they started questioning my wife about her mental health history and were urging her to seek mental health assessment.


I have to share the story on what tipped off the MC that there were bigger issues at hand than squabbles over the dishwasher. 

The first session with the first MC, the MC asked my wife to do one simple homework assignment. The MC asked my wife for one day to get up and go to work without making the bed. Just get up, get ready for work and leave the house without making the bed. One day. That is all she asked her to do. 

My wife sat there looking at the MC like she was some kind of 7-headed alien slime dragon that just walked out of a space ship holding hands with Bigfoot 

And then she outright refused and said she would not do that and that was a completely insane thing to even ask her to do. 

That is when the MC suggested seeking the assistance of a mental health professional. 

So I guess I will ask you @PaulNS954, if the MC asks you to do a homework assignment of NOT mentioning or doing anything about the laundry or the dishes or whatever for one day, will you consider doing it?? If the MC asks you to just let the laundry go for one day or to leave the toys on the floor for one day and leave them their overnight, will you do it or will that be too tall of an order? If you try it, will knowing that laundry is in the hamper and that there are toys on the floor keep you awake with your anxiety through the roof all night? 

Or will that be too tall of an order for you?


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## LeGenDary_Man (Sep 25, 2013)

PaulNS954 said:


> Thanks. Yes, I never wanted to look through her phone because I feel like I’m spying on her. Sometimes she reads my texts and I hate it because I feel like it’s an intrusion. She basically just has the one friend and I feel like pointing out how miserable that friend is better than telling her she can’t have the friend. If anything, maybe she can tell her friend that complaining doesent help anyone and most her problems are probably her own fault.
> 
> I’ve never given her an ultimatum but I think I’m going to tell her I’m going to book us an appointment with a marriage counselor and if she wants to show up then great but if she doesent then that’s her choice. I feel like that’s a soft ultimatum that she pretty much has to agree to.


So you do not want to check her phone while she is willing to check yours? Well...

Your best shot is to seek MC with your wife. This is assuming that she accepts your offer.

Nobody here can do anything in regards to your wife. It is up to you to take 'suggestions' [seriously] and attempt to FIX your problem(s) in the end.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

PaulNS954 said:


> My kids have a tremendous amount of toys and my daughter is 2 years old so she literally picks something up, walks with it, and then drops it and then repeats.


You do realize that is what 2 year olds do right? 

What we call play and making disaray of toys is a critical part of a young child's development. 

A 2 year old is not developmentally capable of picking out one toy that they want to play with for a specified period of time, playing with it in the manner which an adult thinks it needs to be played with and then putting it back in it's designated place without direction and supervision when they are done playing with it. A 2 year old's brain has not reached that level of development yet. 

You're asking someone who has not yet learned to control their bowels to perform multi-step tasks they are not physiologically developed for yet.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

PaulNS954 said:


> . I never said I have any OCD


But have you been assessed and screened for it by a mental health practitioner and told that you don't have it?


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## LeGenDary_Man (Sep 25, 2013)

@PaulNS954 

Your kids are small - they will NOT have much discipline with toys. 
A 2 year old infant will certainly not by any stretch of imagination. 
A 7 year old would be much better with toys but your son has ADD.

Your wife (or you) can recollect scattered toys and put them back in one place by the end of the day. This is how it works.

Parenting is mutual effort. You are a capable parent (no doubt) but you need to help your wife in this matter.

Your home situation will improve when the kids are older and much better learned.


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## PaulNS954 (6 mo ago)

oldshirt said:


> I have to share the story on what tipped off the MC that there were bigger issues at hand than squabbles over the dishwasher.
> 
> The first session with the first MC, the MC asked my wife to do one simple homework assignment. The MC asked my wife for one day to get up and go to work without making the bed. Just get up, get ready for work and leave the house without making the bed. One day. That is all she asked her to do.
> 
> ...


That wouldn’t be a tall order at all. I don’t even care if the bed is made and the toys never get picked up and I don’t mention anything because I get my head bit off. As I mentioned, the cleaning lady comes once per week and the only time my wife cleans is before the cleaning lady comes, because the cleaning lady requires things to be picked up before she cleans. On occasion, our cleaning lady cancels and when that happens, the entire house remains a disaster for 2 weeks and I still don’t say anything. If the cleaning lady didn’t come for 3 weeks then the house would be a disaster for 3 weeks and then maybe I would say “hey do you think you can pick up the house a little bit?”. That’s literally my exact words that I say. She knows I hate the house being messy and seeing how being a home-maker is literally her occupation then I don’t think it’s too much to ask to keep the home reasonably clean..


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

PaulNS954 said:


> That wouldn’t be a tall order at all. I don’t even care if the bed is made and the toys never get picked up and I don’t mention anything because I get my head bit off. As I mentioned, the cleaning lady comes once per week and the only time my wife cleans is before the cleaning lady comes, because the cleaning lady requires things to be picked up before she cleans. On occasion, our cleaning lady cancels and when that happens, the entire house remains a disaster for 2 weeks and I still don’t say anything. If the cleaning lady didn’t come for 3 weeks then the house would be a disaster for 3 weeks and then maybe I would say “hey do you think you can pick up the house a little bit?”. That’s literally my exact words that I say. She knows I hate the house being messy and seeing how being a home-maker is literally her occupation then I don’t think it’s too much to ask to keep the home reasonably clean..


What would happen if you simply weren't there for weeks on end?

Would she take a shower on her own volition? Would she get groceries and feed the kids? Would they run out of toilet paper and start wiping their butts with old towels and washcloths? 

Would she take initiative to at least be hygenic enough that no one would be calling DHS on the kids or the health department coming to investigate the neighbors report the stench of rotten food in the refridgerator? 

Would she step up to the plate or would DHS/ Health Department have to intervene?

Is she just being defiant and passive agressive because your badgering her too much and this is her way of pushing back? 

Or does she have some kind of mental health issue that needs to be evaluated and addressed? 

Either way, I think you do need some kind of professional involvement here. Whether you start by getting in to see an MC or whether you go through your family doctor about getting a consult for mental evaluations, I don't really care, but something ain't right here whether it's you, her or the both of you. 

If the point of your thread is asking if it's time for some professional evaluation of your home and family life, my answer to that is YES. I don't pretend to have the answers but I can see that someone ain't right here and I can tell that you can see that as well and I support your suspicion that this needs some kind of professional evaluation.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

So what do you love about your wife?

What attributes does the marriage possess that makes it "excellent"?


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

PaulNS954 said:


> My wife is constantly complaining at me about how difficult of a time she has keeping the home clean and getting things done.


Okay. She's got used to this way of living. She's unhappy about _something_, she quite probably can't really say what it is, and your task is to find out what it is. 

Here's a clue: if she's not keen on marriage counseling, it may be because she guesses that the counselor won't entirely be on her side. 



PaulNS954 said:


> I really think you’re doing a lot of projecting here.


Maybe. What we are doing is trying to help you by trying to figure out what this story might look like *from her point of view*. Based on our different life experiences. Because that's what you need to know. That is the best way we can help you.


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## D0nnivain (Mar 13, 2021)

You are Felix & Oscar from the _Odd Couple_ TV show. The amount of clean & organized that is considered adequate in an Italian household is immaculate. Not everybody works or lives that way. What for you is an anxiety inducing mess for her is basic lived in. It doesn't bother her but you complaining about it & expecting her to clean like your mother & your grandmother makes her nuts so she rebels by doing nothing. I lived with an Italian guy for 10 years; all of our disagreements were over levels of clean. It bugged him that I didn't enthusiastically clean to his specifications.

One of 2 things is going on with her. She really is just a spoiled user who wants a full time maid so she can lounge in the hammock & shop _OR_ she's bored at home & would rather have some sort of job. Suggest she get work. Even if what she earns only covers the extra days you can pay somebody to clean & organize the house to your exacting standards that money should mitigate your anger & resentment, thereby saving your marriage.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

PaulNS954 said:


> Thanks. Yes, I never wanted to look through her phone because I feel like I’m spying on her. Sometimes she reads my texts and I hate it because I feel like it’s an intrusion. She basically just has the one friend and I feel like pointing out how miserable that friend is better than telling her she can’t have the friend. If anything, maybe she can tell her friend that complaining doesent help anyone and most her problems are probably her own fault.
> 
> I’ve never given her an ultimatum but I think I’m going to tell her I’m going to book us an appointment with a marriage counselor and if she wants to show up then great but if she doesent then that’s her choice. I feel like that’s a soft ultimatum that she pretty much has to agree to.


It is a huge intrusion. It’s also wildly disrespectful.

I really like your counselor idea. I hope that works.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Does she even want to keep house?

My mom sucks at it but she was certainly up front about that. Nevertheless my dad was like “do it”, it made them both miserable. She went back to work and my father made us pick up after ourselves and hired a maid.

Perhaps she’s not cut out to be a house wife.

My wife is very disorganized and a procrastinator. I am the opposite. I am super nailed down and I do everything early. Of course I knew this about her from the first time I ever went to her place. It was a total mess of things strewn around. I thought, “Wow… she really lives like this?” Guess what my house looks like now? That. I got over it. It’s easy you just tidy up anything that really bothers you and leave all the rest. As you say you have bigger problems like growing your business. That stack of junk mail on the table, well it can just sit there.

Oh yeah if she ever cooks or bakes the kitchen looks like a bomb went off. I clean as I go such that by the time I am done it is basically already clean except for a couple dirty dishes. She doesn’t cook anymore.


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## Sfort (Sep 28, 2019)

PaulNS954 said:


> We have an excellent marriage outside of homelife


But except for that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?


PaulNS954 said:


> but thats because Im good at being in uncomofortable situations for prolonged periods of time.


Like being in a less-than-perfect home?


PaulNS954 said:


> our friends are envious of our marriage because I work hard to inject a lot of humor and I dont hold anything back from her


Totally irrelevant. You're married to your wife. What your friends think is irrelevant in this situation.


PaulNS954 said:


> I prefer to do things by myself


You're probably going to get that opportunity.

If you're not full blown OCD, you have enough of the traits to have a problem. (If @Laurentium thinks you might be, you should take his opinion seriously.) You also have a problem having to work 55 hours per week. If you're as successful as you say you are, you should hire someone to share your load. That suggestion, of course, means you have to find someone you can trust who can do things as well as you can. OCD suggests that person doesn't exist. Your family is more important than your work.

You'll probably get all puffed up about my response, which is sincerely meant to be helpful, but I have been there, done that, and gotten the T-shirt. Wake up. I'd bet she's really excited for you to come home each day. <sarcasm>


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

Sfort said:


> If you're not full blown OCD, you have enough of the traits to have a problem. (If @Laurentium thinks you might be, you should take his opinion seriously.)


I don't think I said that.


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## Luckylucky (Dec 11, 2020)

Is anyone actually spending quality time with these kids, as in playing with them, sitting with them, so that they’re not walking around and dropping toys?? Either of you? Who is actively engaging with them? What are meals time like? It sounds like there’s not a lot of quality, quiet family time. They’re small too, so you both (you especially) have to understand that a clean and spotless house isn’t going to be possible for a long time. When they’re a bit older, your house will be tidier, and eventually really clean.

But you have one toddler, and one boy who is active (I’m sorry, I didn’t read everything, is he officially diagnosed as ADHD or you’re just labelling him?) Boys like to be active, they just don’t stop. Do you get out on the bike with him? Let him wash the car? Climb stuff? Take him to the park with a ball every day or two?

I had three small ones and let me tell you the house was hell for about 7 years. But my priority was clean surfaces, cooked meals and a lot of very active time with kids who would definitely just want to wander around all day dripping stuff if I decided to clean all the time. They want to spend time with you, as tiring and boring as that is 😍.

So our place had toys and papers and stuff everywhere, but the benches doors walls and floors and sinks and toilets were spotless. Kitchen and bathrooms spotless and cleaned regularly. Kids were spotless, clothes were spotless, all meals were cooked. But yes there were shoes and clothes and stuff strewn all over the clean floors often. Cleaning with kids in tow holding a cloth and me making stupid car noises or something like that. We’d all sit and eat, and often get out to the park or socialise most days. As they got bigger, the house was eventually spotless. Maybe lower your expectations and get down and be active with the kids. The house just isn’t going to stay clean, your wife understands this. Maybe you need to?

During those times, my close friends would arrive at each-other’s clean houses and marvel and comment and feel guilty. The reply from every mother was always, ‘I only clean because you were coming for a play date, you know the deal and what it looked like a day ago 😂’


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## Sfort (Sep 28, 2019)

Laurentium said:


> I don't think I said that.


Indeed you did not. How did I remember that? Sorry about that. However, if you HAD said that, he should have taken you seriously.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

TexasMom1216 said:


> Absent some psychological problem you’re not describing here, it sounds like you’re being taken for a ride. If your wife’s whole job is kids and home, she needs to do it. She isn’t. You’re not her servant, so stop acting like it.
> 
> She either needs to get a job or keep the house clean. I suspect she knows you’re against divorce and believes that means she can do anything (or nothing) and you won’t do anything about it. Is this the example you want set for your kids of how marriage works? She needs to get a job. She can either do the job she has now or get a new one. Tell her you’re done and she can fix this or you will, but if you fix it she will be on her own because this is unsustainable.


It’s difficult to say….. but…. I….. agree with Texasmom.


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## CrAzYdOgLaDy (Mar 22, 2021)

Do you have one room in your house which can be used as a play room only? This way all toys have to remain in the toy room, to keep away from rest of house. As the children get older teach them how to put their toys away after them. Your wife also seems lazy not doing the laundry, housework etc. Just what does she do from morning till bed time? And same to you what do you do from morning till bedtime? Trying to get a picture mostly of your wife. Does she sit around a lot on her phone for example instead of doing laundry, polishing etc?


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## Jimmysgirl (9 mo ago)

We all have to pull our weight. I stay home but I actually do stuff. I'm tired, abnormally tired, but I try and my hubby understands that. If she's doing absolutely nothing instead of harping on her maybe have her get screened for depression. Also talk to her and see what overwhelmes her. For me personally if my hubby says "would you mind doing ____ tomorrow I'm going to put in every effort to make that a priority. If he were to say "this place is a pigsty and this and that and that and that are a wreck and we're going to get roaches and what on earth do you even DO all day" my brain is going to get so overwhelmed all I'm going to do the next day is cry lol. 
I don't know what your wife actually does. Is she doing crafts with the kids? Reading with them for hours on end? Cooking dinner? Growing a garden? Tell us more.


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## David60525 (Oct 5, 2021)

PaulNS954 said:


> Hello everyone. This is my first time seeking advice for my marriage because im generally an introverted and private person that prefers to handles matters internally. However, I also know that advice from others looking from the outside are invaluable. In any case, I feel like I have a great marriage and I love my wife and the family we've built.
> 
> My Wife and I have been together for about 17 Years, and we've been married for about 10 of those years. We have two children, a 2 YO, and a 7YO. I own my own professional business which requires me to work pretty often (about 50-55 hours / week) and even when im on vacation, I still have to attend to my email because my occupation requires me to be available. My wife is a homemaker and generally always has been since a couple years after my son was born. I make very good money and im able to provide for the family, very comfortably.
> 
> ...


Quit wining, get a maid, work less, tell wife she's hot, game each other, get over the clutter, negotiate. She told you she's overwhelmed. You are too. HVe a talk. Read Dr. Gottman books.
Are you a male alpha or beta wuss.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

If she doesn't work outside the home, you stop helping and hiring maids, laundry service, everything. 
For a month or two. Keep the service reps on hand though, don't cancel your relationships with the services.

Let her realize how it could go, as in her comforts slipping away. 

If she doesn't come round then ask her to find another place to live and start to divorce. Better now than later.

As the D moves forward replace her car with a beater car that's paid for and wholly in her name. Take her off all credit cards but one and limit that ceiling. Same with bank accounts, start only your name accounts, limit the amounts in any joint accounts. 
Protect yourself from her being able to empty joint accounts.

From your info, things will never get better. Period.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

David60525 said:


> Quit wining, get a maid, work less, tell wife she's hot, game each other, get over the clutter, negotiate. She told you she's overwhelmed. You are too. HVe a talk. Read Dr. Gottman books.
> Are you a male alpha or beta wuss.


How is she overwhelmed? You've got to be kidding or pretending or even projecting. OP has made every support service available to her. Can she not wipe her own butt?


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## theloveofmylife (Jan 5, 2021)

PaulNS954 said:


> To add to all this, shes very clingy and I prefer to do things by myself. Any time I do something she wants to be with me but sometimes I just need my own space.


I'm guessing that this is part of the problem. She feels neglected and taken for granted, so if she sees it as you not meeting her needs, she will be in no hurry to meet yours. 

_*everyone needs and should have some time to him/herself, but if you *prefer* that to spending time with her, she feels that._

Lots of good responses here. I think you both have some issues to work on.


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