# Michele Weiner-Davis Lecture



## bestyet2be (Jul 28, 2013)

I happened to see this recently, "The Sex-Starved Marriage: Michele Weiner-Davis at TEDxCU." I'd be curious to know what others think of it.

I don't know...haven't read her books. Searching for her other stuff on the Internet, seems like most of her actual remedies are things anyone in these situations likely would have already tried.

(I'd mentioned this as a reply to another thread, but no response there, and I think it deserves a new thread.)


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## Average Joe (Sep 2, 2015)

I shared this with my wife last spring (I forget how I found it ... NPR link maybe?). She was completely incensed by it. It was probably not a good idea to present it to her when we were already completely p!ssed at each other.

What it did for her was to highlight everything else that was lacking in the marriage, and she was right. I had really been out to lunch, and just thinking about this video makes me physically sick, because it takes me back to a time when I was giving very little, and our marriage really sucked, and I expected sex for _that_? Gross.

Love Languages need to happen first. Become that expert FIRST in the way your partner needs to feel connected to you. Only when W felt fully secure and cared for first (and it was not an overnight thing, by any means ... took months) did I start getting all the sex I wanted.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

What MW Davis taught me in my SSM helped to save the marriage along with several other books, help from a sex therapist, and advice from others. I have seen the TED talk, but the book is what you really want to study.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

bestyet2be said:


> I don't know...haven't read her books. Searching for her other stuff on the Internet, seems like most of her actual remedies are things anyone in these situations likely would have already tried.


Yes, her solution of telling LD spouses to "just do it" while also learning that a responsive drive is how things work, seems potentially abusive in my book. 

Badsanta


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

badsanta said:


> Yes, her solution of telling LD spouses to "just do it" while also learning that a responsive drive is how things work, seems potentially abusive in my book.
> 
> Badsanta


Not sure about abusive. If the LD spouse has actually read the book and gotten to the point of "just doing it", they've already passed the first hurdle of being willing to work on the issue. At that point, I'd say the danger of abuse is past. 

What would be abusive is for the HD spouse to read the book and pressure his still unwilling spouse who never read the book in the first place, or read it and disagrees with it, to just do it.

If a couple can't read the book and have an adult conversation about it before agreeing on a course of action, then they likely have bigger problems than sex.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Isn't she the one who came up with The 180?


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

bandit.45 said:


> Isn't she the one who came up with The 180?


Yup.

I think she was basically one of the first people to really start bringing the issue of sexual mismatches to the public eye.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Fozzy said:


> Not sure about abusive. If the LD spouse has actually read the book and gotten to the point of "just doing it", they've already passed the first hurdle of being willing to work on the issue. At that point, I'd say the danger of abuse is past.


I still disagree with you @Fozzy and I'll paint the picture with the following metaphor.

Person A loves going out for chocolate ice cream and while person B does not mind going out for chocolate ice cream, this person has developed a dislike towards chocolate ice cream because person A asks to go out for it way too much. While I am sure person B can come to understand that chocolate ice cream is very important to person A, and that if they just went out for it that person B could remember that they actually do enjoy it, you are completely overlooking the harsh fact that person B gets labeled as the one that was "unilaterally controlling" trips to go get chocolate ice cream in the relationship, and that it is OK for person A to feel that person B needs to change that behavior. 

So if person B gives in and starts going for chocolate ice cream, yes they may enjoy some of it, but person B will likely feel uncomfortable and that person A would not take the effort to learn a better way than having person B "just do it" again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, 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again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, again, and yet again and so on until person B's initial understanding of being accepted for what they actually desire is lost....

In reality person B never gets a chance to learn how to say to person A that, I simply don't want to go out for chocolate ice cream, I prefer we learn how to make our own chocolate ice cream at home together. Person A will also never understand that person B actually enjoys more "making" the ice cream for person A than the part of just sitting down and eating it. Ultimately person B will become immensely happy once person A put more emphasis on being thankful for person B's desire to learn how to make chocolate ice cream like person A has never eaten before instead of putting the focus on feeling entitled to repeatedly ask over and over and over again to just go get some already made and out of a box.

Badsanta

*So to recap, person B may actually desire the act of getting person A aroused more so than having sex.* If person A is always aroused and ready for sex, then person B will likely feel that their desires are unneeded or unwanted and just all they are good for is to be used for sex.

So if this is the case and the woman is labeled as "LD" with a HD man, perhaps you can imagine her heartbreak if he brags that he is always ready and wanting to have sex and that the only thing needed is for her to "just do it" and learn to enjoy that part more.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

Just watched her video. It is a nice idea. I really triggered.

I "just did it" for years, even though my own needs weren't being met. I even initiated even when I really wasn't in the mood, for my H's sake. It ended with me feeling used and breaking down crying during the act. I don't do it anymore unless I am sure I feel my needs have been met.

So what does a person do when their partner says they love them, yet they won't (they say they can't) meet their partner's needs?

(My need is for my H to be home more. For the past 7-8-ish years he has chosen jobs that take him away from home for days at a time. He ended up having an EA.)

His job situation creates a lot of stress and emotional pain for me. I feel the pressure (from myself) to have sex the few days he is home. If he were home we could work on our M and have unpressured sex during the good times.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

I've always interpreted her "just do it" advice as being more related to understanding responsive desire, and letting that dynamic take effect.

I don't think anyone (well, probably a few would) advise just putting out in situations where you're in pain either physically or emotionally. HOWEVER, I do believe that in those cases both partners need to have the ability to talk through those issues with a focus on mutual satisfaction.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

Fozzy said:


> I've always interpreted her "just do it" advice as being more related to understanding responsive desire, and letting that dynamic take effect.
> 
> I don't think anyone (well, probably a few would) advise just putting out in situations where you're in pain either physically or emotionally. HOWEVER, I do believe that in those cases both partners need to have the ability to talk through those issues with a focus on mutual satisfaction.


Generally, I can get into it after it starts. Only once did I break down crying, because I was forcing myself to do it, when I was hurting too much emotionally.

We talk A LOT when he's home. He looks for jobs some, not enough IMO. I feel he is not sincere in his desire to be home, he just does enough to make it look like he is trying.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

badsanta said:


> *So to recap, person B may actually desire the act of getting person A aroused more so than having sex.* If person A is always aroused and ready for sex, then person B will likely feel that their desires are unneeded or unwanted and just all they are good for is to be used for sex.
> 
> So if this is the case and the woman is labeled as "LD" with a HD man, perhaps you can imagine her heartbreak if he brags that he is always ready and wanting to have sex and that the only thing needed is for her to "just do it" and learn to enjoy that part more.


I guess I just don't understand this.

So the LD spouse enjoys getting the HD spouse hot and bothered, but doesn't want to take it any farther than that, and if the HD spouse wants to actually have sex at that point it becomes abusive?

I'm not trying to be dense here, but I really am not wrapping my mind around this.


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## NoSizeQueen (Sep 9, 2015)

I think the "just do it" philosophy may work fine when the issue is JUST lack of desire, but not so much when that lack comes from unmet emotional needs.

I just did it for years, and because my husband was getting sex, he didn't really believe anything was wrong. It was only when I would slow down on providing sex that he would acknowledge I had needs too. Once I started providing again, he saw no reason to keep working towards my needs, and he stopped trying.

"Just do it" works best when BOTH spouses are committed to working towards meeting each other's needs. There is no magic bullet, every HD/LD marriage is different and there are many solutions.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Fozzy said:


> I guess I just don't understand this.
> 
> So the LD spouse enjoys getting the HD spouse hot and bothered, but doesn't want to take it any farther than that, and if the HD spouse wants to actually have sex at that point it becomes abusive?
> 
> I'm not trying to be dense here, but I really am not wrapping my mind around this.


Fozzy, 

Go to a department store and compare the size of the men's section to the women's section. Odds are you will notice that the women's section takes over 75% of the store. Why is this? It is because generally speaking women just want to look beautiful for men. Meanwhile as for us guys we just want something simple to wear and likely care less about how we look to everyone. The only thing we care about is that the cloths fit comfortably and keep us warm. 

Now imagine if men were the only ones allowed to buy cloths for our wives. Odds are we would focus only on something that would fit them comfortably and keep them warm and we would care less about finding a matching outfit that works with their favorite pair of shoes. I think we would both agree that this just does not happen, because virtually no men ever has gone cloths shopping for their wives (except in the movies where the leading man buys the girl a beautiful dress).

Now imagine if only women could go shopping for all our cloths because they want themselves to look attractive and they want their husbands to look attractive. Not only does this happen, but it is likely how most of the cloths in the US are sold. 

Now imagine if a man came home and did not care about wanting to wear the cloths that his wife buys for him anymore. He has now been studying how other women dress their husbands, and now he prefers to wear what something that another woman picked out for him. Odds are the wife would naturally take a very strong offense to this!

Same holds true for when a man comes to the bedroom already very aroused! Where the F**K did his arousal come from? A wife might have severe self confidence issues and suspect that her husband's arousal came from looking at other women in porn and she will not help but to feel subconsciously threatened and then subsequently used if it is best for her to "just do it!" Perhaps she will respond and eventually have an orgasm, but there will be no desire for more sex.

Now @Fozzy I am not saying that this is how all relationships work, but it is an an example of how "just do it" can potentially be abusive. 

Perhaps instead of "just do it" it would be healthier for the HD person to explain how and were their arousal comes from and take the patience needed to *allow his wife to be confident that the arousal is attributed to her* and not from her husband having watched porn or from being around other women. Then she does not have to "just do it" as things will naturally run their course and sex will be awesome.

This is written for someone in @Angel82 situation and likely applies to @IMFarAboveRubies as well.

Badsanta


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

NoSizeQueen said:


> I think the "just do it" philosophy may work fine when the issue is JUST lack of desire, but not so much when that lack comes from unmet emotional needs.
> 
> I just did it for years, and because my husband was getting sex, he didn't really believe anything was wrong. It was only when I would slow down on providing sex that he would acknowledge I had needs too. Once I started providing again, he saw no reason to keep working towards my needs, and he stopped trying.
> 
> "Just do it" works best when BOTH spouses are committed to working towards meeting each other's needs. There is no magic bullet, every HD/LD marriage is different and there are many solutions.


If I may ask @NoSizeQueen do you enjoy in your new relationship feeling like you are the one cultivating your partner's desire? And if so does this make you feel like you want and desire to have more sex?

Badsanta


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## Heatherknows (Aug 21, 2015)

@badsanta you left out the last again but I don't think anyone noticed.


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

badsanta said:


> I still disagree with you @Fozzy and I'll paint the picture with the following metaphor.
> 
> Person A loves going out for chocolate ice cream and while person B does not mind going out for chocolate ice cream, this person has developed a dislike towards chocolate ice cream because person A asks to go out for it way too much. While I am sure person B can come to understand that chocolate ice cream is very important to person A, and that if they just went out for it that person B could remember that they actually do enjoy it, you are completely overlooking the harsh fact that person B gets labeled as the one that was "unilaterally controlling" trips to go get chocolate ice cream in the relationship, and that it is OK for person A to feel that person B needs to change that behavior.
> 
> ...


Have you ever loved a woman who wasn't clean?


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## NoSizeQueen (Sep 9, 2015)

badsanta said:


> If I may ask @NoSizeQueen do you enjoy in your new relationship feeling like you are the one cultivating your partner's desire? And if so does this make you feel like you want and desire to have more sex?
> 
> Badsanta


Yes, i enjoy it very much. I think the best way to say it, is that I enjoy knowing that he desires me exactly the way I am, flaws and all. That makes me desire him a lot... I've never had to "just do it" with him, and we have sex several times a week (basically every night that we see each other).

My ex didn't want ME, he just wanted sex. That made me feel used, and it was a huge turn-off.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Woodchuck said:


> Have you ever loved a woman who wasn't clean?


 @Woodchuck if this is one of those "your mamma jokes" I think you missed the punch line or did not type it right or something. 

For reference purposes only, you have to put "yo mamma" in it or no one will get the joke. Here is how one works:

*Yo mamma* like a credit card, I signed up for her rewards program and now she gives me cash back!


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

badsanta said:


> @Woodchuck if this is one of those "your mamma jokes" I think you missed the punch line or did not type it right or something.
> 
> For reference purposes only, you have to put "yo mamma" in it or no one will get the joke. Here is how one works:
> 
> *Yo mamma* like a credit card, I signed up for her rewards program and now she gives me cash back!


It was a classic line from the movie *"BAD SANTA*....

Thurman...Why do you wear a false beard...

Bad Santa...All my hair fell out...

Thurman...Why did your hair fall out

Bad Santa...Because I loved a woman that wasn't clean....

I read somewhere it can cause stuttering too....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZjOd_LAGHw


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## bestyet2be (Jul 28, 2013)

Wow, I expected people to either write that her approaches were effective & helpful. Or not.

The reactions of "abusive," practically sinister, sure surprised me.

OK. Here's a question: If her "fake it til you make it" or "just do it" approach to improving an HD-LD mismatch is a bad idea right out of the box, what's a better suggestion to avoid the spiral of relationship badness she described?

I'm also a little confused by the sex vs. other things comments. Whether it's sex or family vacations or almost any activity I can think of besides endless kindle reading, while it's hard to get my wife to "just do it" she almost always has a good time if she does.

Anyone characterizing it as "let's have more sex INSTEAD of or IN OPPOSITION TO other happy activities" heard a very different lecture that I did. Strange.

Anyway, it's not that the sex in our marriage is so bad or non-existent, but in my quest for improvement I'll keep in mind some of what this woman said.


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## NoSizeQueen (Sep 9, 2015)

I don't think "just do it" is necessarily a bad idea, it's just that it's not often implemented well.

She says they should both just do it... The HD should meet the LD's emotional needs, and the LD should meet the HD's sexually needs. If they just try, they'll see the rewards. I agree with this.

But life is rarely so balanced. Often the more stubborn partner demands more. They want their needs met first, and then maybe they'll make a move towards meeting their partner's needs. Ot maybe they won't, because they have what they wanted now. This leads to someone feeling used and resentful. 

"Just do it" only works if both partners are all in. And partners who don't work well as a team in the first place don't put this into practice well.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I can't think of a better way to kill a woman's sexual desire than to pressure her for sex while ignoring her emotional needs. 

I think I would get up and leave the bed if my husband did that.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

bestyet2be said:


> OK. Here's a question: If her "fake it til you make it" or "just do it" approach to improving an *HD-LD mismatch* is a bad idea right out of the box, what's a better suggestion to avoid the spiral of relationship badness she described?


OK @bestyet2be
*
Don't label her LD!!!*

If you paid any attention to the fact that @NoSizeQueen transitioned from one relationship where she was defined as LD and into a new relationship where we would define her as HD, then what changed?

The truth is that there was NOTHING WRONG WITH HER, and she is perfectly fine and beautiful the way she is in BOTH SCENERIOS. BUT she should have never been labeled as LD by her first husband and made to feel like she had to to "just do it" with him in order to get any benefits out of the marriage. 

What changed? In HER WORDS:
*
"I enjoy knowing that he desires me exactly the way I am"
*

So if you are in a relationship and having issues, @NoSizeQueen just spelled it out for everyone plain and simple. You need to do what ever it takes to help your partner feel that way, and the only way to do that is to be sincere, honest and patient. Let her be the one to cultivate your desire, not a porno.

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

jld said:


> I can't think of a better way to kill a woman's sexual desire than to pressure her for sex while ignoring her emotional needs.
> 
> 
> 
> I think I would get up and leave the bed if my husband did that.



We aren't talking about unmet emotional needs in many of the LD HD cases here... 

The fallacy of "meeting emotional needs" is obvious when:

(a) needs are undefined or unattainable...

(b) the goal posts keep moving

(c) there are excuses galore and eventually indifference

(d) the usual, regardless of meeting emotional needs nothing happens


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

@john117. 

The fallacy of "meeting emotional needs" is obvious when:

(a) needs are undefined or unattainable...

*Research indicates that irreconcilable differences must remain engaged in conversation even if they are irreconcilable. Stopping the conversation on these topics will make one person feel uncared for...*

(b) the goal posts keep moving

*CHANGE is the only constant in marriage, and this used to be written at the TOP of the TAM webpage!*

(c) there are excuses galore and eventually indifference

*Excuses could be self defense for when something does not feel write and then indifference could be someone withdrawing because of that.*

(d) the usual, regardless of meeting emotional needs nothing happens

*OH SNAP!!!! That sound like an excuse to me @john117 so be careful that could cause people to become self defensive or indifferent.*

I like picking on you!

Badsanta



But seriously John, just get her another Main **** and things will start to purr again in the house!

http://petupon.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/maine-****-cat.jpg


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

badsanta said:


> @john117.
> 
> 
> 
> http://petupon.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/maine-****-cat.jpg


That woman is tiny!


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Well,

If differences are irreconcilable and one side brings them up continuously that's a recipe for disaster - harping - as the other side has said repeatedly they don't care. What else is there?

Change is a given in life - but constant changes in goals are not common. Example: you agree to a romantic getaway in an Appalachian cabin and a bottle of Makers Mark. Ten minutes out of Paducah she announces she wants a cruise... 

Excuses and such sound innocent till you recognize them for the lies they are.

Most LD HD issues have more to do with the past and less with the present. I know this sounds like my colleague Sigmund here  but still... The present and future are generally fixable but the rate of success in addressing hard core LD issues tells me it's more related to the generally unfixable or harder to fix past...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Fozzy said:


> That woman is tiny!



***** are pretty big. Ours is still a kitten at 14 lb and 9 months, probably fully grown 25 to 28 lb at 3 years.


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## Average Joe (Sep 2, 2015)

If you love each other, you should re-do the Love Languages every couple years to grease the wheels, because they are indeed malleable. W's changed completely. Mine didn't at all.

If you don't love each other, that should be respected also, but should be dealt with very differently.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

john117 said:


> ***** are pretty big. Ours is still a kitten at 14 lb and 9 months, probably fully grown 25 to 28 lb at 3 years.


 @Fozzy *YES* women are small once a **** reaches three years! John may be able to explain the physics behind this, but it may go over your head as have other things in this thread!

https://farmbartonpets.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/riley-maine-****-cat.jpg





































my only point is that all these women look HAPPY! Even if they have shrunk to a much smaller size.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

So if I'm not meeting my wife's emotional needs I can get her a large cat and the cat will monopolize what's left of her emotions and have even less left for me... 

I should do a TED on it


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## Heatherknows (Aug 21, 2015)

jld said:


> I can't think of a better way to kill a woman's sexual desire than to pressure her for sex while ignoring her emotional needs.
> 
> I think I would get up and leave the bed if my husband did that.



...however if my husband did: no touch, no talk, no eye-contact till I was calm and submissive that would work for me.

(I'm watching way too much of Cesar Millan...but then again I'm not balanced so I need him to train me.)


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Heatherknows said:


> ...*however if my husband did: no touch, no talk, no eye-contact till I was calm and submissive that would work for me.*
> 
> (I'm watching way too much of Cesar Millan...but then again I'm not balanced so I need him to train me.)


Could you elaborate on the bolded, heather? Basically no contact turns you on? Is that correct?


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

jld said:


> Could you elaborate on the bolded, heather? Basically no contact turns you on? Is that correct?


 @jld pppssssst ssshhhhhh

I am thinking @Heatherknows needs a man that can dominate her, and that does not react to everything that she does, but instead stays calm and authoritative. 

Along the lines of this thread, *SHE wants to work for his attention* and praise, as opposed to being smothered with him begging. Once she gets his attention, she will know that it was HER that aroused him as opposed to him coming to her already aroused from something else! 
@Heatherknows that actually seems extremely healthy to me! Carry on...

Badsanta


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

badsanta said:


> @jld pppssssst ssshhhhhh
> 
> I am thinking @Heatherknows needs a man that can dominate her, and that does not react to everything that she does, but instead stays calm and authoritative.
> 
> ...


I understand that a needy, whiny man is never appealing. I just did not get the part about no contact whatsoever.


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## NoSizeQueen (Sep 9, 2015)

It's a Dog Whisperer joke. That's how Cesar handles an agitated dog.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

NoSizeQueen said:


> It's a Dog Whisperer joke. That's how Cesar handles an agitated dog.


It is the same with a cat, you ignore them and they meow at you and jump in your lap and start purring. But the moment you start chasing them, they want nothing to do with you. 

See look at Cesar, NO EYE CONTACT and he starts getting respect and love...


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## bestyet2be (Jul 28, 2013)

jld said:


> I can't think of a better way to kill a woman's sexual desire than to pressure her for sex *while ignoring her emotional needs.*


I was so taken aback by this, I went back and listened to the lecture again. Was there anything MWD said that could possibly be construed as recommending or even condoning this?

After listening again and after having read other similar comments, I think I understand how she might be _*misconstrued*_ in this way. I think there are two really different situations getting lumped together.

*Number 1:*

I'll go with a pet analogy: Imagine two dogs. One wants to play ball, and the other wants to play tug-o-war with a rope. Not being able to agree how much to play each, they don't play at all. That's like an HD partner who wants more sex, and a LD partner who wants to do more in the relationship apart from sex.

I guess that's a common problem, though I don't feel like it's my problem, hence my puzzlement.

*Number 2:*

The other situation is where the LD partner is like a cat, mostly inclined to sit in the sun and look out the window at passing birds. The HD partner is like a dog who wants to do lots of things, but the cat doesn't just not want to do some of those things, she doesn't want to do any of those things.

When MWD spoke of her client who felt it was the loneliest thing in the world to stare at the ceiling after his wife fell asleep. I took it to mean he was longing for satisfaction of "emotional needs" AS WELL AS sexual needs.


But of course one can get emotional needs met, at least to some degree, through shared non-sexual activities with friends, conversations with family, not to mention playing with pets and communication with people on Internet web sites like this. :smile2: But excepting infidelity, not so with sexual needs.

So, maybe MWD's ideas are more relevant to one situation or the other. Ideas?


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## bestyet2be (Jul 28, 2013)

badsanta said:


> *
> "I enjoy knowing that he desires me exactly the way I am"*


Yes, it's a wonderful thing to love and accept someone without attempting to change, or even wishing to change, someone.

But isn't there a hidden problem in that statement? Shouldn't we all strive for improvement? Isn't desiring something "exactly" as it is rejecting any aspiration for improvement?


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## NoSizeQueen (Sep 9, 2015)

bestyet2be said:


> badsanta said:
> 
> 
> > *
> ...


Of course we should strive for improvement, but that's not exactly what I meant. 

I often made a point of just doing it for my XH, offering him myself and body when I wasn't really in the mood. I did this at least once a week, and made sure to be a good sport about it and try to enjoy it. But he was rarely able to accept this for the gift it was... he always wanted a little more. A little more frequency, a little more enthusiasm, acts he knew I didn't like. This turned me off, to always feel pressured and pushed despite making the effort to meet him in the middle. There was never an acknowledgement or thanks for the fact that I was trying, just a demand that I step ALL THE WAY UP to his level.

He had an idea of what I should be sexually (mostly built from porn), and I didn't fit that. I didn't want to be that, didn't consider it an improvement. When I feel loved and accepted, I feel a lot more sexual in general. When I feel pressured, it becomes a struggle.

My BF makes it clear that he wants ME, he doesn't need me to be more. My pleasure is just as important as his, and he doesn't want me to do things if i don't enjoy them. Ironically, this approach gets him exactly what my XH was pushing me so hard for and failing to get.


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## NoSizeQueen (Sep 9, 2015)

TL;DR -
If you make your LD partner feel like an entire person that you desire and want to make love to, and not just the only thing you're allowed to have sex with, you may get better results! "Just doing it" doesn't help them with this feeling unless they're getting something back from it.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

NoSizeQueen said:


> I think the "just do it" philosophy may work fine when the issue is JUST lack of desire, but not so much when that lack comes from unmet emotional needs.


Exactly.

I showed my wife this video months ago - not as a "how-to", but more as a "you're not alone" kind of thing, with no expectations put on her to follow through with her suggestions/advice/rules.

When we first started having issues with our sex life, the first thing I attacked was whether or not I was meeting her needs in the first place. Not jumping right into her not meeting mine. We long ago established that it's simply a lack of desire on her part.

It's important one discuss this with their spouse prior to making them watch this video, otherwise it's simply more pressure on them, which is hugely detrimental.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

The "Just do it" advice is good for some situations. 

For a lot of times in my own, the more sex we have the more sex we want. The more sex we have the better the other areas (like non sexual affection, time together, etc) get which makes the relationship better which makes sex happen more often. 

But "just do it" doesn't help when the LD spouse is feeling neglected or not getting her/his needs met (in and out of bed) and more sex doesn't lead to fixing the other issues. 

Both people have to be willing to "just do it" to meet the others needs. It can't stop at just sex or the problem will just get worse.


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## NoSizeQueen (Sep 9, 2015)

Ms. Weiner-Davis makes the very optimistic assumption that both partners will "just do it" because they love each other and want to make each other happy. If they can truly do that, this can work.

But often, these relationships became unbalanced in the first place because someone takes more than they give. So this becomes very transactional, more like "I'll meet your needs as long as you meet mine". So someone still feels taken advantage of or used, valued for what they do instead of who they are. This becomes even worse if the partners have different ideas of what is expected from them, or how much they are entitled to.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

bestyet2be said:


> Yes, it's a wonderful thing to love and accept someone without attempting to change, or even wishing to change, someone.
> 
> But isn't there a hidden problem in that statement? *Shouldn't we all strive for improvement? Isn't desiring something "exactly" as it is rejecting any aspiration for improvement?*


HA! The point exactly, but you can't see it!!!!!!! Even to a point where you have been brainwashed by advertising and marketing to make you vulnerable and think that about yourself and your spouse.

Let me go grab a book.... (sh!t can't find it) anyway it goes like this:

If you like yourself, you are a conceited ásshole. If you hate yourself, then you are a looser. Whatever you are doing it is not working. Try this, no try that and if it does not work, then you are the problem, go try something else.... This is how we are conditioned by society to treat ourselves and our spouses to get us to buy something that someone else is selling to us.

If you finally learn to love yourself and your spouse exactly the way each of you are, you will finally *STOP* HURTING AND ATTACKING EACH OTHER, and guess what you will begin to improve because you will begin to heal. 

Badsanta


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

I like eating oranges, but I wish they were more like apples. I want to be able to just bite into them from the outside and not have to slice them, then chew on them, and not have get juice all over the fücking face! Oranges you need to strive to improve and be more like an apple!


OR










I like eating apples, but sometimes it can be very hard to bite into them, especially if one of your teeth is loose or bothering you. They are also not juicy enough. I wish they were more like an orange. Apples you need to strive to improve and be more like an orange!


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Holy shît, look what I found on the internet. I stay up all night looking at these... 

This is proof! My apples and oranges CAN IMPROVE!!!


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Look everybody, here is a picture of the apple I have at home. See how messed up it is!


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Then perhaps you can go to Yahoo answers or something to eventually learn there is *NOTHING WRONG even with a bruised apple exactly the way it is*:

_*What should I do with 5-6 bruised apples?*
I have 5-6 apples that are bruised due to accidently dropping them on the ground. I don't want to throw out if I can avoid it. I would like some easy and cheap alternatives besides just cutting them up and and eating them. I usually eat one apple a day and my hubby eats them every few days or so._

_*Best Answer: * Hi , im sure you want a recipe thats quick and easy ! 
Just peel the apple's cut them up into wedges sprinkle with cinnamon and bake in the microwave for about 1 minute and 10 seconds , and you'll *have a fast , yummy , sweet , well portioned mini baked apple treat ,* and the way to make it crunchy too is by adding crushed oats on the top with a dollop of fat free yogourt ! mmmm_


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## bestyet2be (Jul 28, 2013)

badsanta said:


> If you finally learn to love yourself and your spouse exactly the way each of you are, you will finally *STOP* HURTING AND ATTACKING EACH OTHER, and guess what you will begin to improve because you will begin to heal.


MWD spoke of a path forward. Maybe not a path for all people in all marriages, but a path that she claims has the possibility of building positive feelings upon positive feelings. More sexual...less angry...more loving...more sexual...etc.

BadSanta, clearly you're not someone who's at a loss for words. How about you draft your own TED talk? I'd like to read it.

You might begin with chanting "again" over and over? Maybe throw in some cat or fruit pictures? Close by telling everyone to just be better and less hurtful people.

Even though I'm not totally convinced by everything Michele said (that's one reason I started this thread) I'm starting out thinking her talk more likely to improve more marriages than yours.


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## bestyet2be (Jul 28, 2013)

NoSizeQueen said:


> I often made a point of just doing it for my XH, offering him myself and body when I wasn't really in the mood. I did this at least once a week, and made sure to be a good sport about it and try to enjoy it. But he was rarely able to accept this for the gift it was... he always wanted a little more. A little more frequency, a little more enthusiasm, acts he knew I didn't like. This turned me off, to always feel pressured and pushed despite making the effort to meet him in the middle. There was never an acknowledgement or thanks for the fact that I was trying, just a demand that I step ALL THE WAY UP to his level.


So you're saying you were kind of following what would have been Michele's advice, and it turned out badly.

*But as I think about it, and might the alternative have been worse???* As is, you feel you gave of yourself in the best and most loving way you could. Doesn't that make you feel better about yourself going forward?

I'd think you'd feel worse about yourself if you were now looking back thinking otherwise: "I only engaged in sex if I was in the mood. I always put myself first and never tried to meet him in the middle, but only think of me."


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## bestyet2be (Jul 28, 2013)

NoSizeQueen said:


> Ms. Weiner-Davis makes the very optimistic assumption that both partners will "just do it" because they love each other and want to make each other happy. If they can truly do that, this can work.
> 
> *But often, these relationships became unbalanced in the first place because someone takes more than they give.* So this becomes very transactional, more like "I'll meet your needs as long as you meet mine". So someone still feels taken advantage of or used, valued for what they do instead of who they are. This becomes even worse if the partners have different ideas of what is expected from them, or how much they are entitled to.


I doubt MWD would dispute that.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

bestyet2be said:


> Even though I'm not totally convinced by everything Michele said (that's one reason I started this thread) I'm starting out thinking her talk more likely to improve more marriages than yours.


If both people's intent is to love each other, then *yes* SOMETHING has to stop the couple from hurting and attacking each other.

However in most marriages today with such easy access to porn (not was what around when MWD grew up and made that speech), men need to stop being selfish with their arousal and overstimulating themselves with porn. They need to learn that less is more, and to allow their wife to cultivate arousal in a way that the she feels the power of her husbands sexual response being attributed to her. NOT a video of nympho teenagers with huge tits for which the husband becomes uncontrollably aroused and must have sex for which he is willing to meet his wife's needs just so he can keep using her for more sex.


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## NoSizeQueen (Sep 9, 2015)

bestyet2be said:


> So you're saying you were kind of following what would have been Michele's advice, and it turned out badly.
> 
> *But as I think about it, and might the alternative have been worse???* As is, you feel you gave of yourself in the best and most loving way you could. Doesn't that make you feel better about yourself going forward?
> 
> I'd think you'd feel worse about yourself if you were now looking back thinking otherwise: "I only engaged in sex if I was in the mood. I always put myself first and never tried to meet him in the middle, but only think of me."


Maybe we're a bad example, because HE wasn't following Michele's advice. But mostly I feel stupid for allowing him to use me for so long, and ashamed that I didn't stand up for myself more. Sure, I did "the right thing", and maybe there is some pride in that. But it got me a decade of marriage to a man who never even bothered learning how to get me off, and then a divorce. Maybe if I'd stopped just doing it when I knew I wasn't getting what I needed in return, I could have saved myself some time and heartache.

I don't know, maybe in a few years I'll see it differently. At least I learned some valuable lessons from it.

I'm not saying Michele is wrong, just that some relationships are more complicated than her advice makes it sound.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

My impression is that MW Davis must sell a lot of books to the HD folks out there.

The HD person reads the "just do it" advice and is like, right on!

Then he/she presents it to the LD person and is surprised when the LD person is like, f- no!


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Funny story about her SSM book. I was already aware of her work through her web page and even participated a little in the forums. In my marriage, I'm the HD one. One day, looking for some old tax records, I found a copy of the book in our filing cabinet. Apparently my wife found out about it too and picked up a copy without telling me. 

I'm not sure what she got out of it, since we long ago decided arguing about our sex life was counter-productive, but I think maybe it did make a dent in her mind about the possible fallout from having an unsatisfied partner.


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## Heatherknows (Aug 21, 2015)

jld said:


> Could you elaborate on the bolded, heather? Basically no contact turns you on? Is that correct?


NoSizeQueen is right it was a Cesar Millan joke he says "no touch, no talk, no eye contact during every session." Cesar Millan is my current obsession/crush/love God. Last year it was Jon Snow from "Game of Thrones."


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## Heatherknows (Aug 21, 2015)

badsanta said:


> It is the same with a cat, you ignore them and they meow at you and jump in your lap and start purring. But the moment you start chasing them, they want nothing to do with you.
> 
> See look at Cesar, NO EYE CONTACT and he starts getting respect and love...


OMG I love that man. :x I'd lick more than his face...


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## Heatherknows (Aug 21, 2015)

badsanta said:


> Holy shît, look what I found on the internet. I stay up all night looking at these...
> 
> This is proof! My apples and oranges CAN IMPROVE!!!


OK dude you are given the award as best comedy writer on "Talk About Marriage." :laugh:

(Serious you're a freakin riot.)


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Cletus said:


> Funny story about her SSM book. I was already aware of her work through her web page and even participated a little in the forums. In my marriage, I'm the HD one. One day, looking for some old tax records, I found a copy of the book in our filing cabinet. Apparently my wife found out about it too and picked up a copy without telling me.
> 
> I'm not sure what she got out of it, since we long ago decided arguing about our sex life was counter-productive, but I think maybe it did make a dent in her mind about the possible fallout from having an unsatisfied partner.


I'd take that as a positive sign that she's at least engaged enough to look into something that is a problem in the relationship. Many folks are not.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Anon1111 said:


> My impression is that MW Davis must sell a lot of books to the HD folks out there.
> 
> The HD person reads the "just do it" advice and is like, right on!
> 
> Then he/she presents it to the LD person and is surprised when the LD person is like, f- no!


I think this scenario probably happens a lot more with the Ted talk than the book. To be fair, her book does offer a lot more advice than "just do it", and at least half of that advice is toward the HD spouse and what they need to do.


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## bestyet2be (Jul 28, 2013)

NoSizeQueen said:


> Maybe if I'd stopped just doing it when I knew I wasn't getting what I needed in return, I could have saved myself some time and heartache.
> 
> I don't know, maybe in a few years I'll see it differently. At least I learned some valuable lessons from it.
> 
> I'm not saying Michele is wrong, just that some relationships are more complicated than her advice makes it sound.


You touched on some great points!

I think I can say without fear of contradiction (well, maybe not, this is TAM :laugh that "the smart money" always looks to the past as the best predictor of the future. It's often downright foolish to expect change: there's that saying, "Insanity is doing the same things and expecting different results."

However, change is possible and does happen. If you don't believe in change, you're likely to miss it on those rare occasions when it can occur. Sometimes I know I live a happier life believing in the possibility of change, even when the possibility is very small.

But as you explained, in retrospect, you should have ended your marriage sooner. I've never found a rule for knowing which way to go.

The closest I've come to finding one is to ask myself, when faced with two choices, can I identify one as the "fear choice" and the other as the "growth choice," and then take the "growth choice."

For some people/situations continuing to work on a difficult marriage is the growth choice and divorce the fear choice. But in others clinging to an impossible marriage is the fear choice and divorce the growth choice.

So with respect to this thread, trying to improve an SSM along the lines Michele spoke of (just do it ; less anger; etc.) seems like a great thing to try, certainly only if done in a supportive and not "abusive" way. But to re-try again and again and again and again (think I'll stop at four "agains") , year after year, not so great.


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## bestyet2be (Jul 28, 2013)

Anon1111 said:


> The HD person reads the "just do it" advice and is like, right on! Then he/she presents it to the LD person and is surprised when the LD person is like, f- no!





Fozzy said:


> I think this scenario probably happens a lot more with the Ted talk than the book....


So I'm lucky in that my wife and I are in a place of love, and she usually is very positive about the ideal of a more sexual marriage, and although our "parts" haven's always functioned perfectly, sex is good for us.

The problem, is too many other things get in the way. I want sex as a priority above those other things, but she does not.

The part about desire-arousal inversion and needing to write "I like sex" on her hand is so "her," I showed her the video and even put a pen in front of her.

Can't say that showing it to her was greatly helpful, though not harmful.

There were times when I questioned the sincerity of her interest in sex. It was often "yes, but tomorrow." Then tomorrow the same. The "tomorrows" rarely turned into weeks, or months, but it did happen. I'd stop mentioning it and feel angry. But I was wrong to feel rejected and angry, especially because I now really believe she was sincere. Any anger is a reflection of my weak ego.

In a way, sex is less of a problem than some other companionship activities, which she is instead decidedly negative toward, but I'll remind her she'd had a wonderful time last time we went places and did things. (So I can think of some other positive reminders she could write on her hands!) The difference is I have friends I can do some of the other things with, while the sex is just for us.

And by the way, maybe it's be better to be brave and show the the LD person the books or videos, at the risk of such greater outright rejection, and if it's really f- no, face up to how bad things are, rather than stay in denial?


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Random comment: I have a guy friend who was in a sexless marriage for over a decade. He did talk to his wife about the problem multiple times and she just didn't care. He found SSM and read it and then gave it to his wife. He said she agreed to read it, and broke into tears right in the beginning when it talks about how an SSM feels to the HD spouse. She realized then that it was cruel of her the way she had treated him with no concern for his feelings, and making him feel like a freak just for wanting to have sex with his wife which should be part of marriage.

They went to ST. They did not have an easy go at it. She was stubborn, had a CSA background, and just generally didn't want to cooperate. However, she did ultimately cooperate and they started having regular sex again. They even explored some fantasies and he got to experience a lot of new things with her finally.

But he knew she just wasn't that into it, even though she O'd and stayed consistent with frequency. He knew she'd rather MB because it was easier and she was intimacy avoidant in general.

He continued reading, going to ST with her, and working on the issue. He ended up being as knowledgeable as a phd who does sex therapy by the end of it...there are sooooo many books on these topics to read! He must have read hundreds, as well as forums, articles, podcasts...everything.

The sex never really got better, even though there was now variety and consistency.

Finally he told her it wasn't enough. She told him "oh well, I can't do more". He told her "well this is a deal breaker" and left.

At some point at the end, they had already admitted it was over and were just lightly talking about the sex topic. She ended up saying "sorry, I'm just not that into you that way". Of course that really hurt, but even more obviously, why didn't she just say that and have the balls to leave him instead of letting him go through all that torture trying to fix something that can't be fixed?

He got in killer shape and a year later he met the woman of his dreams. A sexual dynamo and educated feminist who rocks his world and loves him to bits. They're now married and living and f*cking happily ever after.


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## bestyet2be (Jul 28, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> ...why didn't she just say that and have the balls to leave him instead of letting him go through all that torture trying to fix something that can't be fixed?


What a sad story. I guess all one can say is that she was being the best person she could be.

And then really focus on all that striving not being wasted, but having actual benefits in both relationship tactics and cultivating an attitude of gratitude, in that subsequent marriage.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

Couldn't really grasp this thread based on a quick read and by looking at an the pictures of cats.

For foreplay I just yell "brace yerself Maggie!" Then dive into the bed and have at it. She gets her world rocked for the next minute and we're all good till tomorrow.

What's the big deal?


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## bestyet2be (Jul 28, 2013)

TheTruthHurts said:


> Couldn't really grasp this thread based on a quick read and by looking at an the pictures of cats.
> 
> For foreplay I just yell "brace yerself Maggie!" Then dive into the bed and have at it. She gets her world rocked for the next minute and we're all good till tomorrow.
> 
> What's the big deal?


I think the cats do it the same way.


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## NoSizeQueen (Sep 9, 2015)

Faithful Wife said:


> ...why didn't she just say that and have the balls to leave him instead of letting him go through all that torture trying to fix something that can't be fixed?


Sometimes it's hard for a person to identify that. My ex and I were together from our late teens, I didn't have much real relationship experience. He honestly believed that I just didn't like sex very much, and for a long time I kind of believed that too. It took some time and maturity for me to realize that I mostly just didn't like sex with HIM specifically. Since he was the only one I was able to have sex with, it was easy to misread the problem until I gave it real, deep thought. I could see how this woman might not see that until the rest of the relationship was better, and she still wasn't feeling it.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

NoSizeQueen said:


> Sometimes it's hard for a person to identify that. My ex and I were together from our late teens, I didn't have much real relationship experience. He honestly believed that I just didn't like sex very much, and for a long time I kind of believed that too. It took some time and maturity for me to realize that I mostly just didn't like sex with HIM specifically. Since he was the only one I was able to have sex with, it was easy to misread the problem until I gave it real, deep thought. I could see how this woman might not see that until the rest of the relationship was better, and she still wasn't feeling it.


 @NoSizeQueen for discussion purposes in this thread, and to help men trying to work on their relationships, what things could your ex have done that perhaps would have made a difference and made you enjoy and even look forward/desire to have sex? 

If my theory is correct it would probably be important for him to show you how to get him to "cool off" sexually in a loving way so you would feel more control when you more importantly needed an emotional connection in such a way that he would be fulfilled with you in this way. Then for him to do what ever it took to let you know his sexual desire for you was attributed to a never ending list of wonderful things about you as opposed to just arguing about wanting more sex.


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## NoSizeQueen (Sep 9, 2015)

badsanta said:


> @NoSizeQueen for discussion purposes in this thread, and to help men trying to work on their relationships, what things could your ex have done that perhaps would have made a difference and made you enjoy and even look forward/desire to have sex?


A lot of our issues came from the fact that he knew I was just doing it to make him happy, so he started to view my pleasure as optional. If I told him I enjoyed something, that would only be added to the menu if it wasn't any extra work for him. In our entire relationship, there was never any sort of standalone session for me (although he got them). He didn't see a need to try harder, because he knew he would get it anyway, sooner or later.

I would have felt more desire if I had felt like an equal priority in sex (and in the rest of our lives), instead of feeling like I was just a more fun option than masturbation. I needed to feel like his equal, and not just his toy and domestic worker.

I would have desired him a lot more, if I had really believed that he wanted me to be happy. But mostly I felt like he only needed me to be willing to continue doing things for him, and my happiness was more like "extra credit". This applied in and out of the bedroom. I needed my sexuality to matter, and not just be treated as an extension of his own sexual needs.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

NoSizeQueen said:


> If I told him I enjoyed something, that would only be added to the menu if it wasn't any extra work for him. In our entire relationship, there was never any sort of standalone session for me (although he got them).


Alright, this is very interesting because it demonstrates your desire, but also indicates that your ex did not ever acknowledge it, except for the ways in which it served his needs (as in not being any extra work). 

I often read accounts of husband that would do anything to give their wives a standalone session and for her to desire and to want it. *A common theme is men wanting to do whatever it takes to convince their wives to receive oral sex but yet she does not want it*. In my opinion these husbands have that desire for themselves because it is something HE wants, and he has likely missed the repeated requests for him to take her out to a nice new restaurant or go to a concert and then go home for an intimate evening that has no sexual expectations other than to make HER feel loved (which likely involves simply not being pushy, but at the same time being very confident about when the time is right). 

If you say you simply wanted oral and he would never give it to you... I'll just give up and go back to my hobby of raising my pet hamsters. 

Badsanta


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## NoSizeQueen (Sep 9, 2015)

He never learned to get me off, he felt it was too difficult and that I was most likely broken. So standalone for me seemed pointless to him - a lot of work with no payoff. He did oral as part of foreplay (quickly and without much effort), so that he would get some oral in return.

While he never said it, I always got the impression that he didn't like vaginas very much. They were more complicated and strange in person than they were in porn. Oral for me have him no pleasure, so he did it only when he had to.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

bestyet2be said:


> What a sad story. I guess all one can say is that she was being the best person she could be.
> 
> And then really focus on all that striving not being wasted, but having actual benefits in both relationship tactics and cultivating an attitude of gratitude, in that subsequent marriage.


Yeah...he's so moved on now and so in love and so happy, that I bet he holds no more bitterness about his first marriage. His new wife was also burned in a previous marriage, so I think having this in common with each other also helps them form their bond.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

NoSizeQueen said:


> Sometimes it's hard for a person to identify that. My ex and I were together from our late teens, I didn't have much real relationship experience. He honestly believed that I just didn't like sex very much, and for a long time I kind of believed that too. It took some time and maturity for me to realize that I mostly just didn't like sex with HIM specifically. Since he was the only one I was able to have sex with, it was easy to misread the problem until I gave it real, deep thought. I could see how this woman might not see that until the rest of the relationship was better, and she still wasn't feeling it.


I think she would have been ok staying married and sexless forever. I don't think she will ever be in a new relationship. I think there are some men she would be more attracted to, but that she's not going to bother trying for that. She has not shown any interest in dating or sex since they split. She was always way more into her kids and pets than her husband, and she was quite physically unhealthy. Since their split, this has just become even more true.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> Yeah...he's so moved on now and so in love and so happy, that I bet he holds no more bitterness about his first marriage. His new wife was also burned in a previous marriage, so I think having this in common with each other also helps them form their bond.


Faithfulwife, you know you just jinxed your friend and he will be here in two years crying and complaining of a SSM only to find out he and his 2nd wife were having extended rebounds in their 2nd marriage.... 

I say this because it is proven that new relationships often receive a hormonal boost (honeymoon period) and just because a new relationship is only into it first few years does not mean that unbalanced sexual desire will not occur at some point.

For the OP, it is probably best if he is given advice on how to fix an existing relationship first, and KNOW that it will work, as opposed to saying, "hey my friend dumped his wife and now he is happy with the new one!" 

So for the purpose of discussion. How long has your friend been in their 2nd marriage? If they are past the 7th year or so and they have experienced problems and overcome them, I am sure readers here would be very interested and thankful to read about how any similar problems were actually resolved in the 2nd marriage that were irreconcilable in the 1st?


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

My comment wasn't advice, it was just a story that involved the SSM book.

As for my friend, I'm not worried about his new relationship. They are doing great. They are both HD and madly attracted to each other. Since that's the magic combination that keeps the sex good in long term relationships (like mine), I have no doubt things will remain good for them sexually. They are both over 50 and are well established in their lives and personalities.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Ok, while sex is not exactly the same as appetite for food, here is an experiment I just did.

This weekend I woke up in the mood to pamper my wife and make her an awesome breakfast. In my mind I planned crepes stuffed with fresh fruit and whipped creme along with a nice cappuccino and a glass of freshly squeezed juice. But then i thought to myself to just wait a little and see what she wanted. She said that she was in the mood to cook a nice breakfast for our family and to enjoy pampering the kids. She proceeded to make cinnamon rolls, eggs, fruit, grits, and bacon. She served the table, but she served herself only a cup of coffee. She beamed of happiness watching the kids eat. I asked why was she not eating, and she mentioned that she was just not really that hungry but that she would eat the kid's left overs (which she did, but only a few bites). I told her thanks for the wonderful meal and offered to help clean up the kitchen, and she said that would be wonderful because she was in the mood to relax and read a book. As a family, we all had a great morning.

Now, if we were to explore how the morning would have gone if I were to make her breakfast, and want for her to "just eat it!" Here is what would have happened:

• I would have made a huge mess in the kitchen.
• She would have appreciated the gesture but not really eaten what I made her since she was not hungry.
• I would have gotten frustrated that cooking for her did not make her happy.
• She would have gotten frustrated as well seeing me frustrated. 
• We would have both withdrawn.
• Odds are I would have left her the mess to clean up from the meal she never wanted. 
• She would feel unwanted and used like a maid.
• I would not be able to find a way to reconnect with her for the day. 

Instead this is what happened:

• I knew my desire to make a great breakfast and enjoy seeing everyone eat it was likely her same desire.
• I backed off and allowed her to create the meal.
• She enjoyed feeling needed by the whole family.
• By being thankful and helping to clean up, she felt appreciated.
• She also got to relax and feel loved.
• We all had a wonderful morning together. 

In my opinion sex works the same. HD folks can not see that being aroused and trying to find anyway possible to arouse their LD partner by "just doing it" is the OPPOSITE of what should happen. The HD person needs to back off and allow the LD person to cultivate the arousal in the relationship and then celebrate that together. You can not just run to her and claim you are already aroused and try to get her to just do it. You have to compliment her on being wonderful just the way she is and give her enough space so she can desire to please you in return and THEN you reciprocate with your gratitude and love. 

Regards,
Badsanta


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## NoSizeQueen (Sep 9, 2015)

If you made her breakfast on this manner every weekend, knowing she would "just eat it", two things would happen:

1. You would begin to lose sight of her breakfast food preferences, because she was always going along with yours.

2. She would begin to feel that you placed your needs and preferences above her own, because you were more concerned with what she was WILLING to eat than what she WANTED to eat.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

bestyet2be said:


> I think the cats do it the same way.



My cat would rather sleep it off...

View attachment 39905


Desire has little to do with it - it's all about control in some pervasive sense. I'm LDW, low desire for work. I still show up every day...


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

bestyet2be said:


> ...The closest I've come to finding one is to ask myself, when faced with two choices, can I identify one as the "fear choice" and the other as the "growth choice," and then take the "growth choice."
> 
> For some people/situations continuing to work on a difficult marriage is the growth choice and divorce the fear choice. But in others clinging to an impossible marriage is the fear choice and divorce the growth choice.
> 
> So with respect to this thread, trying to improve an SSM along the lines Michele spoke of (just do it ; less anger; etc.) seems like a great thing to try, certainly only if done in a supportive and not "abusive" way. But to re-try again and again and again and again (think I'll stop at four "agains") , year after year, not so great.


One of the things that MW Davis stresses is the 180. That is try something different. If it doesn't work after a while, try another something different. Don't keep doing things that don't work is a hallmark of her approach. Repairing a troubled marriage is kind of a high stakes trial and error psychology game. Keep trying different things until you get it fixed. A professional Sex Therapist who has had some experience and narrow the list of things to try quite a bit and get to the heart of the problem more quickly.



NoSizeQueen said:


> If you made her breakfast on this manner every weekend, knowing she would "just eat it", two things would happen:
> 
> 1. You would begin to lose sight of her breakfast food preferences, because she was always going along with yours.
> 
> 2. She would begin to feel that you placed your needs and preferences above her own, because you were more concerned with what she was WILLING to eat than what she WANTED to eat.


I am a big fan of Chapman's 5 Languages of Love. If the wife views him making breakfast as an act of service and dining together as quality time, and those are her primary love languages; then his repeatedly making breakfast and sharing quality time over that breakfast may make her feel very loved and cherished. If those aren't her love languages, then you may indeed be correct.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

NoSizeQueen said:


> If you made her breakfast on this manner every weekend, knowing she would "just eat it", two things would happen:
> 
> 1. You would begin to lose sight of her breakfast food preferences, because she was always going along with yours.
> 
> 2. She would begin to feel that you placed your needs and preferences above her own, because you were more concerned with what she was WILLING to eat than what she WANTED to eat.


And also I see so many men trying this....

3. Out of frustration I would begin researching what other women like to eat to try and make her meals more enjoyable. Then she would not only loose sight of her meal preferences, but she would be forced to eat what I like, and what I think OTHER WOMEN like.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Action without understanding the root cause is optimistic at best. Without knowing what you're dealing with you can try all kinds of approaches... And get no results whatsoever or get undesirable side effects.


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## NoSizeQueen (Sep 9, 2015)

john117 said:


> Action without understanding the root cause is optimistic at best. Without knowing what you're dealing with you can try all kinds of approaches... And get no results whatsoever or get undesirable side effects.


Agreed. And to an LD spouse who is missing something in their relationship, that's exactly what "just doing it" feels like. It's acting without dealing with the root cause, and can lead to new issues.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Outstanding posts in this thread, badsanta.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

Funny I mentioned that might wife might be LD - in trying to understand her lack of spontaneous desire (yes I understand it better now) and she was quite put off. Was kind of cute actually. Kind of "got her Irish up".

I wasn't sorry I said it - you need to talk and try various angles just to communicate. But it did stick with her and I think it keeps the issue of our joint sex life on the front burner where it should be (the issue of maintaining healthy communication, not the sex itself). She doesn't want either of us to perceive her that way and I don't believe she is LD but there remain issues to work through but we're both totally on board with working on it.

Anyway... we now do "something" every single night. It's awesome actually and I really have to keep my focus at 50+ to keep that going for the last year . But recently I was trying to give her a pass and she said she really looks forward to our time and is thinking about it a bit during the day.

She never did that in the past. And she had responsive desire so that's a big deal. So the fake it advice really resonates with me. This is a positive experience for us because she understands I want to be closer emotionally and this gets me there, and she wants me to be happy do is very willing to go along. And the conditioning and positive feedback loop is reinforcing things immensely.


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## bestyet2be (Jul 28, 2013)

john117 said:


> Action without understanding the root cause is optimistic at best. Without knowing what you're dealing with you can try all kinds of approaches... And get no results whatsoever or get undesirable side effects.


Except for the most rudimentary endeavours, and sometimes even then, isn't that what life is?

I move forward, optimistically, and with only a limited understanding, trying and then trying differently, often without results, and with undesirable side effects. That's my life, anyway.

-------

As I read the exchanges between BadSanta and NoSizeQueen, I'm thinking, "Wouldn't it be great if couples who view this lecture together were inspired to similar explorations?"

Michele's lecture struck me as so positive and loving, I was surprised by some of the negative reactions. But here too, maybe that's not bad: Show it to your spouse, and even if it causes a blow-up, it might be a learning opportunity. I'm sure we've all heard the saying that although anger isn't good in a marriage, it's not as deadly as an attitude of detachment.

I've really enjoyed reading these postings!!!!!


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

ocotillo said:


> I don't disagree with your _analogy_, badsanta, but I think you're taking it right to the brink of _argumentum ad absurdum_.
> 
> The, "just do it" advice is *not* about the HD partner getting whatever they want whenever they want it.
> 
> ...


Still using an apology as food for sex:

*Preparing a meal = getting your partner aroused
Having intercourse = eating the meal*

If the LD spouse primary desire and enjoyment in sex is preparing the meal and knowing her husband enjoys to eat what SHE just prepared, then she will enjoy eating the meal together immensely more and she will also be motivated to spend time preparing better and more exquisite meals. 

Most HD/LD sexual issues should NOT be solved by having the HD partner come to the table with junk food that came from who-the-hell-knows-where and make her "just eat it" because she is otherwise starving herself and has to eat SOMETHING. 

The HD spouse needs to step aside in the kitchen, and learn to enjoy both letting his wife cook and appreciating how those meals nourish the relationship. Once the kitchen is in good working order, perhaps she will begin inviting him to help.

...and guess what, he will learn for the past however many years that he has been in the kitchen cooking (enjoying getting himself aroused by whatever means), that he will likely learn that he only knew how to cook junk food out of a box (AKA porn and masturbation), and that made his wife feel unneeded and subsequently forced to eat because he insists she must eat something.


Seems so obvious, but yet most guys honestly enjoy getting themselves all worked up with porn, eventually feeling unsatisfied with masturbation, and then getting their feelings hurt that they can not arouse their wives the same way as the women in porn get aroused. This in turn makes a wife feel as though she has no control or purpose for creating arousal in the relationship and that she is only there to be used as her husband's sexual outlet for when he gets bored of porn. ..So in that context which I do believe is common on about 75% or more of these scenarios, "just do it" is going to be abusive.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Just do it works in mild cases but not where there is no interest.

Just do it is the moto of design students - fake it till you make it. After a couple years those who have the talent begin to develop their own style and do it 'naturally'. If not change major to accounting or some such.

It's the same thing here. Do it and see if eventually the talent - desire - comes and if not you have deeper problems to fix.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

john117 said:


> Just do it works in mild cases but not where there is no interest.
> 
> Just do it is the moto of design students - fake it till you make it. After a couple years those who have the talent begin to develop their own style and do it 'naturally'. If not change major to accounting or some such.
> 
> It's the same thing here. Do it and see if eventually the talent - desire - comes and if not you have deeper problems to fix.


I agree with that, but it is important to note that design students "want" to become better designers. Same holds true for LD spouses that also "want" to become better lovers but need practice to develop self confidence and natural talents.

But you should not take a design student and force them to take accounting just because he/she will have more job options once available. The design student will have to accept that they are not have to cut out to be a designer and decide for themselves to commit to a different degree of study for survival such as accounting. 

But awkwardly in this analogy we are all designed by nature to be sexual, and deciding that one is not good at or does not want anything sexual is to deny how we are design by nature. So this would lead me to conclude that in this case that one does not actually decide that they are not good at sex, but more so they have decided that they feel threatened by sex. Sexuality for this type of person has become a source of anxiety and conflict, and therefor they run away from it in self preservation. In my opinion I think this is the case for relationship in which men get themselves uncontrollably aroused and insist on using their wife as a sexual outlet as opposed to making her feel loved and then celebrating that with sex. 

So @john117 if someone just does it only to decide that sex is not for them, it is not because they are not talented at it. It is a decision that more likely comes as an instinct of self preservation. 

I would say only a small percentage (perhaps 25%) of couples with sexual conflicts actually understand how to use lovemaking as a celebration of love and have a desire to become better lovers to each other by just doing it. Most are couples that have developed years upon years of sexual bad habits and compulsive behaviors for which they need to "stop doing it" and learn to make each other feel loved which will then lead to natural lovemaking as a celebration of that effort. 

Now getting into the "love languages." If a woman feels used sexually in a marriage, then trading that for favors (such as help with the house) will only further damage her inner self if she perceives that she is being forced to exchange sex for needed help in the relationship.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Design students want to become good designers as much as brides and grooms want to be good spouses.

But some design students aren't cut out to be the next Zaha or J Mays any more than many decent guys and gals are cut out to be life partners.

Fake it till you make it works up to a point but not for a lifetime. Not just for intimacy but in other aspects.


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## bestyet2be (Jul 28, 2013)

badsanta said:


> ...Most are couples that have developed years upon years of sexual bad habits and compulsive behaviors for which they need to *"stop doing it" and learn to make each other feel loved which will then lead to natural lovemaking* as a celebration of that effort.


This is very much the conventional wisdom, yes? How successful has the conventional wisdom been? I don't think very.



badsanta said:


> Seems so obvious, but yet most *guys* honestly enjoy getting themselves all worked up with porn, eventually feeling unsatisfied with masturbation, and then getting their feelings hurt that they can not arouse their wives the same way as the women in porn get aroused. This in turn *makes a wife feel as though she has no control* or purpose for creating arousal in the relationship and that *she is only there to be used* as her husband's sexual outlet for when he gets bored of porn. ..So in that context which I do believe is common on about 75% or more of these scenarios, *"just do it" is going to be abusive*.


After having read numerous postings from LD women here on TAM, I'm pretty surprised this thread has gone on as long as it has with no push backs from this conventional consensus, that LD=woman and HD=man.

It's also highly conventional that the HD=man is an abusive oaf, and the LD=woman is a controlled victim.

Where MWD is fresh, if not revolutionary, is that she blasts these three conventions, asserting instead: That resumption of sex should coincide with, and even proceed, other elements of relationship repair. That often HD=woman and LD=man. And that it is the LD, rather than the HD, who is exerting power.

Unfortunately this only now crystallized, that it was this unconventionality of her lecture that held my attention. I wish I'd thought to emphasize that back when I opened this thread.

Yes, I really am impressed with the pretty significant pitfalls people have pointed out. "Fake it til you make it" surely is a hope, and not a guarantee, of progress in what are often not very hopeful situations. I also agree that whether it's only a long-shot, or nearly hopeless, depends greatly on the actual people involved.

What I'm not impressed with is the vastly less fresh alternative: that Mr. Oaf needs to mend his ways before Mrs. Victim should put out.


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## Average Joe (Sep 2, 2015)

bestyet2be said:


> What I'm not impressed with is the vastly less fresh alternative: that Mr. Oaf needs to mend his ways before Mrs. Victim should put out.


Well that's because Mr. Oaf is the one who wants something. Mrs. Victim may actually be content, having figured out how to get her emotional needs met somewhere else. The marriage could be better, sure. But she's pretty much resigned and content.

Edit: And how many times should Mrs. Victim put out first? Because the night she watched this MWD lecture she gave me a pity fvck, and it sucked, and she wanted change from me the very next day, on principle. And when she didn't get as much change as she wanted, the bitterness and resentment hung heavy. Then I knew I really needed to get my sh!t together, and I did, eventually. And it worked.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

That's the 95% work by Mr. Oaf vs 5% improvement by Mrs. Victim issue....

Yet many cases don't play out successfully because it's too lopsided to begin with.


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## Average Joe (Sep 2, 2015)

I've never been good at math, but I'd say I ramped up my efforts to tap into w's needs by ... eh ... 20%. And the payoff for me is quite off the charts. And I'm glad to do it because I, like, love her n' stuff.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Average Joe said:


> I've never been good at math, but I'd say I ramped up my efforts to tap into w's needs by ... eh ... 20%. And the payoff for me is quite off the charts. And I'm glad to do it because I, like, love her n' stuff.



If you were off by 20% and her reaction was off by 80% then one gotta wonder.... 

In general for long term issues it's never enough and becomes a self fulfilling prophecy...


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

john117 said:


> If you were off by 20% and her reaction was off by 80% then one gotta wonder....
> 
> In general for long term issues it's never enough and becomes a self fulfilling prophecy...


 @john117

This prophecy you speak of, is this it?


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## Average Joe (Sep 2, 2015)

john117 said:


> If you were off by 20% and her reaction was off by 80% then one gotta wonder....
> 
> In general for long term issues it's never enough and becomes a self fulfilling prophecy...


I never said anything about her reaction. I said the "payoff for me" i.e. her effort (however big or small) means a lot (off the charts) to me.

Beyond that, I really don't understand what you're saying and could you please spell out for me exactly why my marriage is still doomed to fail, despite what the books are telling me, despite what my therapist is telling me? In the words of Robert Glover, "Say it like you're talking to your grandma."


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I wasn't talking about a specific person here. In general it is rare that a 20% "slight" by one side is matched tit for tat at 20% by the other side... 

My perception is that people are rarely capable of measured responses. They either ignore it till it bubbles or go all out...


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## HDsocal (Nov 19, 2010)

anyone who is in a HD/LD relationship knows that the LD has ALL the power. Period!

If the HD cant get the LD to WANT to change, there is nothing left for the HD to do. The key word is "want'. If the LD just goes through the motions to appease the HD there will be no happiness, only resentment and loneliness.


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