# How do you handle being beat up with the past?



## BlackMedicine357 (Jan 18, 2011)

I felt that this was a good subject for all of us to explore. I believe many of us are married to people who use past history as a weapon to beat us with in arguments. To me, this is grossly unfair and incredibly damaging to any effort to restore a relationship. 

So how do you effectively defend against these "bit** list" diatribes in the heat of battle?

My personal issue here is that I come into these conflicts unarmed. I truly do forgive and forget. I know generally things that my wife has done that were downright wrong and hateful, against me and others in the past. But I can't remember specifics as I have forgiven and forgotten it in my desire to love her. So throwing up her past misdoings in response is impossible for me. I'm not trying to come of as a saint or a martyr here. It's just the way I handle things with everyone. I address the issue when it's fresh and dispose of it, never to bring it up again.

On the other hand, my W has an infinite list of offenses in intricate detail, that I, and everyone around her ad infinitum, have done. She can call them up quick and use them as a club to beat down any opponent in an argument.

So how do we solve this?

Black


----------



## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

It would be useful to know the specifics of the list.

The vagueness of your post leaves out any significance to whatever might be complained about.


----------



## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Sorry to hear you are experiencing this.

It's called emotional blackmail.

You should reallys it down and talk to her and let he rknow how this is affecting you so you guys can work past this. Having someone constantly bring up past things you've done and they unwillingness to let it go are very hard things to deal with and keep you from moving forward in a healthy manner. 

Have you considered marriage counselling?


----------



## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

Our past dictates our future and our future can determine how we view our past.

While I don't condone using past transgressions in current and future arguments, I've been known to lobby a few here and there.

When I have done it, it's because the past behavior is still present and has not changed. It's a way of me showing him that the behavior has existed for a long time and maybe it's about time to change things as it isn't working.

He has actually thrown a few at me too.

Some people find it harder to forgive than others. 

Some hold a grudge.

Holding a grudge helps justify, to them, their continuing behavior towards that person - i.e., I'm like this towards you because back in 1901, you did this to me...

Perhaps you need to mix it up and when she throws something up in YOUR face, throw something back in HERS, just so she can experience what it feels like to have your past behavior continuously thrown up in your face - that a past mistake can and will haunt you forever.

Or, see if she will attend counselling.

But, you may have a hard time with her seeing it your way. There are some who will never forgive others transgressions - ever and until THEY want to change, they never will.

But, I don't know how old she is, but they do tend to mellow with age (my husband used to hold a mean grudge - forever - now, he's over it much quicker).

Good luck!


----------



## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> Holding a grudge helps justify, to them, their continuing behavior towards that person - i.e., I'm like this towards you because back in 1901, you did this to me...


:rofl:


----------



## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

If only one party to a relationship believes that past grievances are now resolved, then those grievances are NOT resolved.

Things are left to fester until the next moment to thrash them out unsuccessfully.

Then at that point the one who wants to proclaim the "overness" of the grievance plays out their annoyance script at having to deal with it yet again when it is "resolved."


----------



## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Coincidently at a party yesterday I met a couple who are marriage counsellors. They run the Alpha programme … see Alpha Marriage Course | Emmanuel Methodist Church.

It is my experience that if one of you is the Hedgehog and the other the Rhino then you have absolutely no hope of resolving the issues between you … unless you both attend such a “Marriage Enrichment” course.

I was a classic Rhino (which it sounds like you are) and my wife a classic Hedgehog (which it sounds like your wife is). Neither of you will understand the other in these things and you will need help if your wife’s bitterness and resentment about things from the past is not to destroy your love for her and eventually your marriage.

Bob


----------



## Mephisto (Feb 20, 2011)

My wife and I tend to argue like this when our arguments escalate beyond whatever is actually the problem in the here and now. It generally always comes back to arguing the behaviours that were supposed to have been modified from long ago that really haven't changed.

It is a vicious cycle and is one that is really hard to get out of, as one partner always feels like they are hard done by for doing things that the other wanted, but the other doesn't see that they really have made that effort.

We end up agreeing, again, to work on what is upsetting the other, and things are fine until the next time.

We bury the hatchet, we just leave the handle sticking out.


----------



## BlackMedicine357 (Jan 18, 2011)

michzz said:


> If only one party to a relationship believes that past grievances are now resolved, then those grievances are NOT resolved.
> 
> Things are left to fester until the next moment to thrash them out unsuccessfully.
> 
> Then at that point the one who wants to proclaim the "overness" of the grievance plays out their annoyance script at having to deal with it yet again when it is "resolved."


Okay MichZZ... I get the idea that you consider me the offender in this and I deserve to be beat with the history stick.

So example...She holds past action and inaction by others (me and my family) grudges against me when I have virtually cut off my family in favor for her. She feels that as a newly wed bride that my family neglected her while I was downrange almost 20 years ago. Over the years I have addressed this with her and them over the years and yet it still continues. I cannot do anything more to fix this. Since I chose her for my wife, I side with her. They were in the wrong but not completely. My family has always received the cold-shoulder treatment by my W. It was especially obvious in the first 2 years of our marriage when she turned down multiple and numerous invitations and phone calls (too busy to talk) from my Mom and Dad and Brother. She rarely wanted to do anything with them and yet I jumped through hoops to include her parents and still do. As the marriage progressed, we had daughters, and she went out of her way to limit my parents' (who lived in our town) contact with them. Contrast that with my efforts to always help her parents enjoy and be grand-parents including driving 6 hrs at a moments notice to take our family to see them numerous times. Sure, I have my dislike for her family members but I have never been less than cordial and willing to help and be the son-in-law that I should be. I have remodeled every home and condo they have lived in at no cost to them, since we have been together, just one tiny example. I don't bring it up to her at all

I don't really want to make this thread about me. I want to explore the subject with TAM members and maybe find a solution that I haven't tried yet.

Black


Let's keep it on that level.


----------



## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

michzz said:


> If only one party to a relationship believes that past grievances are now resolved, then those grievances are NOT resolved.
> 
> Things are left to fester until the next moment to thrash them out unsuccessfully.
> 
> Then at that point the one who wants to proclaim the "overness" of the grievance plays out their annoyance script at having to deal with it yet again when it is "resolved."


Exactly what I said - you just said it so much more eloquently!


----------



## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

Mephisto said:


> My wife and I tend to argue like this when our arguments escalate beyond whatever is actually the problem in the here and now. It generally always comes back to arguing the behaviours that were supposed to have been modified from long ago that really haven't changed.
> 
> It is a vicious cycle and is one that is really hard to get out of, as one partner always feels like they are hard done by for doing things that the other wanted, but the other doesn't see that they really have made that effort.
> 
> ...


Exactly! :iagree:


----------



## BlackMedicine357 (Jan 18, 2011)

Mephisto said:


> My wife and I tend to argue like this when our arguments escalate beyond whatever is actually the problem in the here and now. It generally always comes back to arguing the behaviours that were supposed to have been modified from long ago that really haven't changed.
> 
> It is a vicious cycle and is one that is really hard to get out of, as one partner always feels like they are hard done by for doing things that the other wanted, but the other doesn't see that they really have made that effort.
> 
> ...


Thank Mephisto, for a cogent, on topic reply. That is the tenor of discussion the thread needs. Practical approaches and information to open up festering wounds and heal.

Black


----------



## BlackMedicine357 (Jan 18, 2011)

We bury the hatchet, we just leave the handle sticking out.[/QUOTE]

And BTW...:rofl:


----------



## BlackMedicine357 (Jan 18, 2011)

Burying the hatchet, I guess, is not best done in your spouse's head. 

Right?


----------



## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

BlackMedicine357 said:


> Okay MichZZ... I get the idea that you consider me the offender in this and I deserve to be beat with the history stick.
> 
> So example...She holds past action and inaction by others (me and my family) grudges against me when I have virtually cut off my family in favor for her. She feels that as a newly wed bride that my family neglected her while I was downrange almost 20 years ago. Over the years I have addressed this with her and them over the years and yet it still continues. I cannot do anything more to fix this. Since I chose her for my wife, I side with her. They were in the wrong but not completely. My family has always received the cold-shoulder treatment by my W. It was especially obvious in the first 2 years of our marriage when she turned down multiple and numerous invitations and phone calls (too busy to talk) from my Mom and Dad and Brother. She rarely wanted to do anything with them and yet I jumped through hoops to include her parents and still do. As the marriage progressed, we had daughters, and she went out of her way to limit my parents' (who lived in our town) contact with them. Contrast that with my efforts to always help her parents enjoy and be grand-parents including driving 6 hrs at a moments notice to take our family to see them numerous times. Sure, I have my dislike for her family members but I have never been less than cordial and willing to help and be the son-in-law that I should be. I have remodeled every home and condo they have lived in at no cost to them, since we have been together, just one tiny example. I don't bring it up to her at all
> 
> ...


It's interesting to me that you took what I wrote personally when I wrote what I did without mentioning you or the specifics of your situation (since you hadn't included any).

Your defensiveness speaks volumes.



michzz said:


> If only one party to a relationship believes that past grievances are now resolved, then those grievances are NOT resolved.
> 
> Things are left to fester until the next moment to thrash them out unsuccessfully.
> 
> Then at that point the one who wants to proclaim the "overness" of the grievance plays out their annoyance script at having to deal with it yet again when it is "resolved."





BlackMedicine357 said:


> Okay MichZZ... I get the idea that you consider me the offender in this and I deserve to be beat with the history stick.
> 
> So example...She holds past action and inaction by others (me and my family) grudges against me when I have virtually cut off my family in favor for her. She feels that as a newly wed bride that my family neglected her while I was downrange almost 20 years ago. Over the years I have addressed this with her and them over the years and yet it still continues. I cannot do anything more to fix this. Since I chose her for my wife, I side with her. They were in the wrong but not completely. My family has always received the cold-shoulder treatment by my W. It was especially obvious in the first 2 years of our marriage when she turned down multiple and numerous invitations and phone calls (too busy to talk) from my Mom and Dad and Brother. She rarely wanted to do anything with them and yet I jumped through hoops to include her parents and still do. As the marriage progressed, we had daughters, and she went out of her way to limit my parents' (who lived in our town) contact with them. Contrast that with my efforts to always help her parents enjoy and be grand-parents including driving 6 hrs at a moments notice to take our family to see them numerous times. Sure, I have my dislike for her family members but I have never been less than cordial and willing to help and be the son-in-law that I should be. I have remodeled every home and condo they have lived in at no cost to them, since we have been together, just one tiny example. I don't bring it up to her at all
> 
> ...


----------



## BlackMedicine357 (Jan 18, 2011)

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> But, I don't know how old she is, but they do tend to mellow with age (my husband used to hold a mean grudge - forever - now, he's over it much quicker).


She's 43. And she won't go to counseling. I'm the problem. I need counseling as she is not the one who is wrong.

And, like I said, I can't really use this tactic back at her as I can't remember specifics of her wrongs. I forgive and forget, REALLY! My points are moot without details, according to her, I could be lying...


----------



## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Your wife may "Never Ever Forgive You" for your past “offences” (either true of false offences).

So the dynamics in your relationship during conflict will forever be the same until the two of you are in your 70s or 80s.

Can you handle that?

Bob


----------



## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

BlackMedicine357 said:


> Burying the hatchet, I guess, is not best done in your spouse's head.
> 
> Right?


Well....if you can get away with it?


----------



## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

BlackMedicine357 said:


> She's 43. And she won't go to counseling. I'm the problem. I need counseling as she is not the one who is wrong.
> 
> And, like I said, I can't really use this tactic back at her as I can't remember specifics of her wrongs. I forgive and forget, REALLY! My points are moot without details, according to her, I could be lying...


Then like I and AFEH said - she may never, ever forgive you or forget anything and everything you've ever done.

You either need to learn to live with it, ignore it and walk away.

Or don't.

Your choice.

Sometimes you really can't "teach an ole' dog new tricks."


----------



## BlackMedicine357 (Jan 18, 2011)

"It's interesting to me that you took what I wrote personally when I wrote what I did without mentioning you or the specifics of your situation (since you hadn't included any).

Your defensiveness speaks volumes."

Perhaps it does speak volumes, about what I'm not sure exactly.

I may be a bit touchy today. 

As I said, and still request, explore this openly everybody. It's not just about me. 

This tactic of verbal conflict surely is experienced frequently by many of us and the point of the thread is to identify its various forms and find effective solutions that dial down the conflict, help heal the relationship and move in a positive direction together as a married couple. 

As I've said before, I have no reason to obscure the truth in my posts here. I am looking for solutions. A problem that is not faced honestly cannot be solved effectively. When a patient goes to a physician or a friend goes to a friend seeking help, they must present their illness or issue with honesty if they truly seek help. Obscuring the truth may get them sympathy, but not a solution.

Black


----------



## BlackMedicine357 (Jan 18, 2011)

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> Then like I and AFEH said - she may never, ever forgive you or forget anything and everything you've ever done.
> 
> You either need to learn to live with it, ignore it and walk away.
> 
> ...


But you could "shoot the ole' dog" and get a new puppy! 

HEH, HEH, HEH.


----------



## BlackMedicine357 (Jan 18, 2011)

Come on folks...I appreciate all the direct replies from Michzz, MWIF, Jellybeans and Bob, all of them. 

But the point of my thread is to see any better approaches to this than just "suck it up and live with it" or "walk away." 

There has to be more. When I treat a patient in the field, if the wound is not obviously fatal (decapitation or total destruction of vital organs) then the "live with it" or "walk away" is not sufficient. I must find a way to save life and limb. 

Same thing here. We are looking at a severe wound in our relationships. It may be fatal, or it may merely be part of the cause of death. But it is not obviously the end of a marriage. 

Let's get going on this. Somebody throw the jump kit on the ground and get with it. We don't want our relationships to bleed out.


----------



## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Your wife has a “victim personality” and she is persecuting you. Take a look at Drama Triangle: The Three Faces of Victim by Lynne Forrest.

You are the rescuer. Your way out of the triangle is to become the persecutor. Believe me it isn’t at all “pretty”.

At the moment I’m thinking the problem you have is around 1,000,000 times bigger than you think it is.

Bob


----------



## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Sometimes you need to make the wound 'worse' to address the problem. 

Think shrapnel. Something bad is stuck in there and nothing gets better until you pull it out - but to do so means inflicting more pain and discomfort.

I'm presuming Black, that you would do what is required even if it meant 'aggravating' the injury.

Same applies here.

Ever watched someone try to bend over backwards with reason in dealing with someone unreasonable? There are two outcomes, the reasonable person completely gives in or accepts whatever terms outlined by the unreasonable party, or the reasonable party states the boundary ... where the buck stops, and holds the line, no matter what freak-show ensues. The easiest analogy would be an adult dealing with a child having a tantrum. Giving the child what they want only sends one message ... pitching a fit works.

I have commented several times about the watershed moment with my ex. After umpteen thousand attempts on my part to reach out, communicate, open up, cajole, plead, cry, yell, and her 'defcon1' was always to simply shut down. End the communication. That was 'power' to her.

Our personal and love life was in the toilet. I had suggested marriage counseling (again) several times with no feedback or response from her.

We were sitting in the living room after the kids were in bed. She was pretending to read something, and I said:

Me: "Do you know why I want us to back to marriage counseling?"

She looked up, rolled her eyes and sighed.
Her: "Because you don't think we have sex enough."

Me: "No. I want to go to decide if I want stay married to you."

Her mouth went slack, and the color washed out of her face. THIS was not the normal playbook. That was the night that I went ultra 180. Everything changed. And make no mistake, from the perspective of our relationship it was not a change for the better.

At the end of the day, my mantra is pretty simple. I want a partner that is going to fight for me, not with me.

She was never invested in recovery. The sooner any partner in a failing relationship can make, and accept this discovery about the other, you can begin to move on.


----------



## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

The main thrust of my comments is that there is unfinished business, yet you think there is none.

If you want marriage counseling, I heartily agree--get some.

Invite your wife to participate. If she doesn't go?

You have your answer to your next steps.

But if she agrees to go? Better path.


----------



## BlackMedicine357 (Jan 18, 2011)

michzz said:


> The main thrust of my comments is that there in unfinished business, yet you think there is none.
> 
> If you want marriage counseling, I heartily agree--get some.
> 
> ...


 Thanks again michzz. I do realize that I have a huge problem.

But I have faced huge problems in the past and with the help of a loving God, my mates and at times heavy artillery and air support, I'm still around to gripe about my food and that there is nothing on satellite tv worth watching.

It must be the way I'm made. I don't believe a situation is ever hopeless. I don't join pity parties and I don't listen to people who say,"we might as well dig holes, we're doomed." I deal in reality thinking, not positive thinking. The difference is in the approach. Believing that everything is AOK and the world loves you, can get your butt shot off. On the other hand, accepting that things may be bad, and then using every resource fighting to get to the the other side of a bad situation most often gets you through. At least it has for me.

My marriage is just another theater of conflict for me in a way. I love my wife and family. Especially my wife. Where my training and ability has proved sufficient and superior in my professional life, I have to say that those two aspects in my married life are woefully lacking. In spite of all the self help books and marriage manuals, few of us truly do marriage well. I had a great model of marriage shown to me by my parents. They loved each other fiercely and by no means were they perfect. But they never gave up on each other and were always shooting in the same direction and facing all comers together. They could disagree with each other, but woe to anyone that got between them. Never any doubt that they were in it together. My relationship is so pale compared to that. 

But I can't worship the model of my parents. They are not me and my bride. I must work with what I have. I am dedicated to see this through. A lot of pain is involved, but pain is a good sign. If it hurts then it's still connected. When you can't feel anything, that's when you should toss it in. Because you're not connected to what matters anymore.

Okay. Let's get back to the enemy at hand. 

Gettin' beat with a "history stick"! 

Thoughts in general, not directed at me....


----------



## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

BlackMedicine357 said:


> I felt that this was a good subject for all of us to explore. I believe many of us are married to people who use past history as a weapon to beat us with in arguments. To me, this is grossly unfair and incredibly damaging to any effort to restore a relationship.
> 
> So how do you effectively defend against these "bit** list" diatribes in the heat of battle?


For ME, the important thing is whether or not remedy and amends has occurred.

My husband accuses me of this occasionally. He will say you called me out for that time x. YAH BUT YOU ARE STILL DOING IT. Or you never even bothered to say sorry or acknowledge in any way that it bummed me out. For all I know it bounced right off you. 



> My personal issue here is that I come into these conflicts unarmed. I truly do forgive and forget. I know generally things that my wife has done that were downright wrong and hateful, against me and others in the past. But I can't remember specifics as I have forgiven and forgotten it in my desire to love her.


Well fighting fire with fire never puts the fire out anyway. What *I* would do if it were me would be to calmly say We already discussed, and I thought, handled that issue. Is there something further that you have problems with? Because it is not useful to continue to drag up things that have been resolved. If your point is to prove what a generally bad guy I am, I don't see how that is productive.


----------



## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Mom6547 said:


> Well fighting fire with fire never puts the fire out anyway. What *I* would do if it were me would be to calmly say We already discussed, and I thought, handled that issue. Is there something further that you have problems with? Because it is not useful to continue to drag up things that have been resolved. If your point is to prove what a generally bad guy I am, I don't see how that is productive.


Perfect.


----------



## BlackMedicine357 (Jan 18, 2011)

Deejo said:


> Sometimes you need to make the wound 'worse' to address the problem.
> 
> Think shrapnel. Something bad is stuck in there and nothing gets better until you pull it out - but to do so means inflicting more pain and discomfort.
> 
> ...


Good thoughts Deej. 

Yes, when a 68W (combat medic) faces some injuries, he does at times have to inflict a little more pain to effectively treat them. Reducing fractures and splinting them is a good example. And surgery involves making a bigger hole to get at and remove the "problem" that made smaller holes. 

The goal is always to save what can be saved while it can be saved. If there is nothing worth saving, then we offer pastoral care measures to reduce the suffering before, ultimately, death comes.


----------



## BlackMedicine357 (Jan 18, 2011)

Mom6547 said:


> For ME, the important thing is whether or not remedy and amends has occurred.
> 
> My husband accuses me of this occasionally. He will say you called me out for that time x. YAH BUT YOU ARE STILL DOING IT. Or you never even bothered to say sorry or acknowledge in any way that it bummed me out. For all I know it bounced right off you.
> 
> ...


I agree with Deejo. Excellent. I will use this. And add the question,"Are you fighting *for us* or *against me?*


----------



## Talias (Dec 22, 2010)

Deejo said:


> Me: "Do you know why I want us to back to marriage counseling?"
> 
> She looked up, rolled her eyes and sighed.
> Her: "Because you don't think we have sex enough."
> ...


:smthumbup:

Deejo...you are the MAN!!!!!


----------



## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

I'm pretty sure that you realize interactions with a spouse are different that career dynamics.

it requires sensitivity and empathy of a different sort than military or even private enterprise endeavors.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

BlackMedicine357 said:


> Come on folks...I appreciate all the direct replies from Michzz, MWIF, Jellybeans and Bob, all of them.
> 
> But the point of my thread is to see any better approaches to this than just "suck it up and live with it" or "walk away."
> 
> ...


Black,
You know I respect what you do for our country deeply, right? I have posted before to you specifically. 

Marriage isn't battle. There have been lots of references here about military and war and that is not what marriage is or should be about. I get that you are a solutions oriented guy, most men are. They see a problem and they fix it. It is a point between A and B. Many do not however see what the "fallout" could be. In zeroing in on your wife's issues and problems and trying to come up with your solution, you marginalize her. She needs to do this on her own accord. I think that if you took a step back and took off the solution cap, you might give her some breathing room to examine herself. 

If your mindset is always on a solutions oriented approach, as my husband's is, it won't work. It works in the military, I know that and there's a reason for that. In marriage, it is a totally different ballgame. Think Football vs. Rugby. Similar sport but very very different rules and players.


----------



## Heinz Doofenshmirtz (Apr 12, 2011)

Hi, new here...

I find myself falling victim to this as well... I have great difficulty letting go of past transgressions my wife has made against me and I end up using that against her in arguments. I even do it with things she has said that were not specifically 'transgressions' so to speak, but just a comment she may have made about something that I end up thinking was indicative of something that is now a problem in our relationship, and that I should have been more vigilant about that before I got so involved with her and then married.

But for me, I've found the reason for this is fear... regardless of what it may be about, it is ultimately fear of her doing those same things again that leads me to bring them up when we are in conflict. I am afraid of being hurt again by what she did. And as others in this thread have mentioned, it wouldn't be such an issue if I didn't see what look like indicators that it might happen again.

So it seems to me it's really an issue of communication and trust building... I know that sometimes that's awfully hard to do, but that's my take on it. And if she's unwilling to address her own issues that lead her to hold that fear, all you can do is try to not do the things that engender those fears in her. After that, I guess it becomes a matter of deciding if you can live with it or not, and if whatever else you have in your relationship is enough to outweigh her fear and her expressions of that fear.


----------



## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Black, believe me you have a total inability to understand the problem you face. You don’t understand the “problem” and even if you did you will never be able to cure or resolve it. And I mean never, no matter what you do. Plus you are way over confident in your ability to “solve the problem”. Way over confident.

In essence, you are living with a woman who in a many ways hates you. Hate is a very strong word, but yes she hates you. And added to that she has one heck of lot of anger aimed at you inside of her. It is like she is carrying around inside of her massive grudges (ill will, rancour) against you, huge great “chips on her shoulder”.

She doesn’t want to stay married to you and resolve the problems between you and that is why she will not go to MC with you. She wont go to MC with you because she knows it will be patently obvious to the MC that she doesn’t want to be with you and is manipulating the heck out of you. She knows she can fool you and she’s damn certain she can’t fool an MC.

But there’s very much more to all of this. You don’t feel loved by your wife? That is very deliberate on your wife’s behalf. She is deliberately withholding things from you that help you feel loved by her. That’s what people who harbour massive grudges do.

Bob


----------



## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

Coming from the southwest and knowing how wild fires are fought it is very possible to put a fire out with fire. Ok well contain the fire. In labs and other conditions it is also possible to snuff a fire with a hotter burning shorter burning fire. The hotter fire burns up the oxygen in the surrounding area thereby snuffing both fire. Not saying this should be the course.

As said before the past will always come up. You haven't been specific those here don't know if she is emotionaly blackmailing you or if she is holding your current actions up to your past actions.

Give you an example my wife is divorcing me and recently had an EA, when talking to her about it I used past examples (both recent and farther back) on why I couldn't trust her. It had nothing to do with emotionaly blackmailing her it had to do with you said you were going to change this has been an issue since here we have had this talked here here and here and still you do it.

Emotional Blackmail would be her going I had an emotional affair because three years ago you had one. That is an attempt to shift her blame and guilt on to me.

Through it all I have to say my ife doesn't emotionaly blackmail me at least not verbaly (I feel she does in her head though) She emotionaly manipulates the **** out of me but doesn't blackmail me.

From the way you have responded to people in this thread it sounds like your wife isn't doing it to you. It sounds like she is hammering home a point and you just aren't getting it. Take it from someone who knows she is looking for a change from you and if you don't fix it and fix it fast you are going to find your wife in the arms of another man.

And if she is actually emotionaly blackmailing you what Bob said.


----------



## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Heinz Doofenshmirtz said:


> Hi, new here...
> 
> I find myself falling victim to this as well... I have great difficulty letting go of past transgressions my wife has made against me and I end up using that against her in arguments. I even do it with things she has said that were not specifically 'transgressions' so to speak, but just a comment she may have made about something that I end up thinking was indicative of something that is now a problem in our relationship, and that I should have been more vigilant about that before I got so involved with her and then married.
> 
> ...


Heinz I admire your honesty.

You know everyone on the planet gets “offended against”. Everyone, without exception. We can all hold onto the bitterness and resentment caused by those offences. We can all do that. But a heck of a lot of us don’t.

But it is an active decision not to hold onto bitterness and resentment and I believe the people who don’t do so for a number of reasons.

First off they think it’s “small minded”. It is something small minded people do. People who do not have the “broader view of life”. Secondly they do it very deliberately because they absolutely refuse to become, to be “made” a bitter and resentful person, a "Victim". Thirdly they truly know, implicitly understand the benefits of forgiving another person their offences. Not for the person who has offended, but for the person who has been offended against, the person doing the forgiving. Fourthly these people who “refuse to become “victims”” of another’s behaviour instinctly know that “revenge” is not the way to go. That if the path of revenge is taken, not one but two people are buried.

Bob


----------



## Heinz Doofenshmirtz (Apr 12, 2011)

AFEH said:


> Heinz I admire your honesty.
> 
> You know everyone on the planet gets “offended against”. Everyone, without exception. We can all hold onto the bitterness and resentment caused by those offences. We can all do that. But a heck of a lot of us don’t.
> 
> ...


Bob, thanks for your kind words about my post. I am here because my marriage is in the toilet and I simply need to talk about it, find some support, and hopefully gain some insight into myself and my behavior so that I can take actions to improve myself directly and my marriage indirectly by taking care of myself and working on becoming a better person.

I think your observations on why people hold grudges are very astute. As I mentioned above, I know that at least for myself, and I would be so bold as to assume this is true to some degree for others as well, what holds me back from being able to take those steps is that old demon of fear... 

From the posts I've read here, I see that many members are Christians; I myself am Buddhist (although I certainly could do a much better job of adhering to the Five Tenets), and in Buddhism you learn that it is attachments to others and material possessions that leads to fear, fear of the loss of what you become attached to, and that fear turns to anger, anger into hate, and hate into suffering. (Yes, Yoda said that in Episode One, but that was taken directly out of Buddhist teachings.) My point in mentioning this is that both Siddhartha and Jesus taught forgiveness and to achieve it by seeing oneself as not separate from others, but as one in the same, so that your suffering causes others to suffer, and that the forgiveness you give to others is that which you eventually give to yourself.

So, for me at least, that 'active decision' as you put it so well, is a decision to not compare myself, to not judge myself, to not let myself get sucked into the trap of thinking I need to be better than anyone but myself. Unfortunately, I don't think there's anything more difficult that we can do for ourselves, than not compare ourselves to others. (Of course, that gets back to the whole Buddhist idea of the 'self' as an illusion, but that's another discussion for another time and/or thread!)


----------



## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

Heinz Doofenshmirtz said:


> Bob, thanks for your kind words about my post. I am here because my marriage is in the toilet and I simply need to talk about it, find some support, and hopefully gain some insight into myself and my behavior so that I can take actions to improve myself directly and my marriage indirectly by taking care of myself and working on becoming a better person.
> 
> I think your observations on why people hold grudges are very astute. As I mentioned above, I know that at least for myself, and I would be so bold as to assume this is true to some degree for others as well, what holds me back from being able to take those steps is that old demon of fear...
> 
> ...


Well the physical self is an illusion manifested by the will of the true self oo wait we weren't having that discuscion here  I am not a buddahist myself but I follow alot of the concepts from the Zen sect. I am very into self delving and conquering myself. I also believe I am no where near having mastered myself. Then again one who claims to have mastered himself is in fact deluding himself...ahh paradoxes how I love them.

I don't think I am one personaly to hold grudges though I will hold someones actions against the light of past actions. If the drug addict has bummed money several times off me for food and instead bought drugs why should I believe this time he is going to buy food. Asmany people here have said and has been said countless times elsewhere insanity is the act of doing the same thing over again and expecting differnt results.


----------



## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Heinz Doofenshmirtz said:


> Bob, thanks for your kind words about my post. I am here because my marriage is in the toilet and I simply need to talk about it, find some support, and hopefully gain some insight into myself and my behavior so that I can take actions to improve myself directly and my marriage indirectly by taking care of myself and working on becoming a better person.
> 
> I think your observations on why people hold grudges are very astute. As I mentioned above, I know that at least for myself, and I would be so bold as to assume this is true to some degree for others as well, what holds me back from being able to take those steps is that old demon of fear...
> 
> ...


Interesting. Two things. Some of the most devout Christians haven’t a clue of what Forgiveness is all about. True Buddhism is fine if you are a monk and totally dependent upon others for your food, shelter, safety and security. For those of us that “work” for a living we form powerful attachments, simply because we must to “make our life work”. That is, buy our own food, pay for our own home etc. etc.

Bitterness and resentment is as powerful a bond to another person as is love and joy.

Bob


----------



## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Heinz, you obviously don’t fear your wife enough to leave her. I did.

Here’s something that people don’t “get”. “Forgive them for they know not what they do”. Right or wrong?

There are two answers. A healthy minded person never but never deliberately hurts another, most especially the person they’re married to, the person they are in love with. Sure these healthy minded people do “things” which offend their spouse, it’s inevitable in long term relationships. Sometimes we’re a complete and utter ass. But the offence is not calculated to hurt, it is not deliberate. These people “know” that and therefore find it easy to forgive another’s offence against them, move on with their life and eventually forget the issue, the offence.

But there is another type of person. These people do things to deliberately offend and hurt the person they are married to, the person they supposedly love. The “hurt” is calculated and premeditated. They “offend” in order to hurt and get a specific response from their partner. And because they are deliberate and calculating in their abusive behaviour they think others are exactly the same as they are. And because of that these second type of people will “Never ever forgive” their partner’s offences against them because they believe the offence was calculated and deliberate.

These second type of people actually “Persecute” their partners for “offences” from years, sometimes decades in the past. For the “offender” their “time” is never “served” and they are never “punished enough” for their offence.

When the first type of person, the “forgiving person” wakes up to all this and accepts it exceedingly big changes happen in their life.

Bob


----------



## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

AFEH said:


> Heinz, you obviously don’t fear your wife enough to leave her. I did.
> 
> Here’s something that people don’t “get”. “Forgive them for they know not what they do”. Right or wrong?
> 
> ...


I think you left out an important third category bob. Ther are people in this world where the hurt is not calculated.They are so unhappy with themselfs they self sabotage everything. They are much like group two but its not the people they care about they are trying to hurt it is themselfs. They are willing to forgive and forget but because of their own personal pain they will always find something new to be unhappy with. Group2 usualy finds happiness in the drama they cause group three more validates their life through the pain they feel.

Obviously no one is perfect people from group 1 might do things that group 2 or 3 do but I do think we need to add in that third group.


----------



## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Niceguy13 said:


> I think you left out an important third category bob. Ther are people in this world where the hurt is not calculated.They are so unhappy with themselfs they self sabotage everything. They are much like group two but its not the people they care about they are trying to hurt it is themselfs. They are willing to forgive and forget but because of their own personal pain they will always find something new to be unhappy with. Group2 usualy finds happiness in the drama they cause group three more validates their life through the pain they feel.
> 
> Obviously no one is perfect people from group 1 might do things that group 2 or 3 do but I do think we need to add in that third group.


I wonder where The Self-Defined "Victim" - Page 1 fits in?

Bob


----------



## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

AFEH said:


> I wonder where The Self-Defined "Victim" - Page 1 fits in?
> 
> Bob


I think they could fall into group 2 or 3 depending on the nature of it all. My spouse I honestly consider to be a group 3. My mother on the other hand is defnitley a group 2. Yes I know there is something freud said about all this  I openly admit that there are qualities of my wife that are very akin to my mother just as I have qualities very akin to her father (akin not the same) My wife honestly seems unable to realize the wave of destruction she leaves in her wake when she chooses a new victimizer. I am not the first so I have had the oppurtunity to view this behaviour from a far. My mother is fully aware and does not care and can only find happiness by doing it.

Now I think a group three given time and considering no permanent mental illness will always either mature into a group 1 or group 2 person when they reach that clutch point. I think the reason why despite the severley mentaly ill we find so few in the group three category is most of us by are early 20's have a good sense of self (yes we are still discovering but our core is firmly developed by then) Due to some stuff in my childhood I "matured fast so I had that sense of self at around 18. Before then I was most def a group three as are most teenagersI have eer come across.

Mind you not an expert but personal opinion based off personal expierences and personal observations.


----------



## Heinz Doofenshmirtz (Apr 12, 2011)

Both of you make some good points that I hadn't thought about, but make a lot of sense.

With respect to my wife, I honestly don't know if how she relates to me now is because she is intentionally trying to 'persecute' me or not. But, why should that matter? What matters is how I choose to respond to her actions and behavior and handle myself when relating to her. 

And Bob, yeah, I do have plenty of fear centering around my wife; I fear being rejected by her, being unloved by her, by her wanting to leave me, by her wanting to be with another man, of feeling inadequate in her eyes in many different ways... and so on. But again, why should that be an issue for anyone but me? I guess what I'm trying to say here is that I try to not let fear be my motivation for what I do with respect to how I relate to my wife. That of course is awfully hard to do and I'm haven't been nearly as successful with that as I want.

One of the most difficult lessons I've had to learn in my life is that you can't make people do what you want them to. No matter how manipulative and controlling you may be, you will still end up short of what you wanted, because when you're like that, you micromanage to such a fine degree, and set everything down in such a hard stone, that no outcome is going to meet your expectations, and you end up disappointed, frustrated, angry, resentful, hateful, and so on. And at least for me, when I have done that, it has been motivated by fear, of loss, and so on...

At the same time, however, I'm not saying there aren't times where you need to make a stand... back in our 7th year of marriage, my wife had an 'emotional affair' (I guess that's what the "EA" abbreviation being used here means anyway). She says that it never got physical/sexual, but because of my own trust issues with her, and the way she herself relates to me, that is still one of the things I struggle with from time to time, wondering whether or not she did or didn't, and still is or isn't, telling me the truth about what she did. The point is, that at that time, I saw what was going on and at first felt I shouldn't try to control her or prevent her from doing what she wanted; if she really wanted to, she'd do what she wanted regardless of what I did to try and stop her or interfere or intervene. I placed my faith in a 'live and let live' attitude.

But, I eventually realized it wasn't helping... and I felt I had to give her an ultimatum, which I did. I told her flat out as clearly and as bluntly as I could that she could stop doing the things she was doing with this co-worker of hers she was in the EA with, or I would leave her. I also confronted the guy and told him flat out that I thought what he was doing with respect to my wife was wrong, and that he was being dishonorable about it because he knew who she was and what her situation was but yet he was still voluntarily participating in the EA with her, and that he could either stop, or frankly, I'd leave him in a heap in an alley somewhere... I also said as much to my wife... I expressed the rage and anger and hurt I felt about what she was doing and told her flat out that I had told him to stay away from her, and that I'd kick his ass, or worse, if he didn't. 

Those actions on my part, regardless of how right or wrong they may have been, dramatically changed the situation with my wife and our relationship improved substantially for the next three years or so, when deeper issues we each have started it on another downward trend and have lead to where things are today.

I guess my point in going through all this is that I understand all of what you guys are saying, and that it's like picking your way through a minefield, or walking a tight-rope... it's a balancing act and you have to do your best to figure out what to do and why, and why you've been doing what you are, based partly, of course, on the actions of your partner. And I think that's what this whole discussion is supposed to be about... how do you walk that tight-rope to its end, or how do you navigate that minefield to come out of it relatively okay? How do you find the insight and inner strength to NOT let fear control you so that you're even unintentionally or unconsciously letting your fear put you in a place where you're holding on to past grievances and using them as a weapon against your partner... And I think that no matter what, acting in that way can never have a positive outcome in a relationship and that is why I am working hard on myself right now to understand the basis of my fears and how they affect my behavior toward my wife, so that I won't end up damaging myself and my relationship with her. 

In short, I hope that I never do fear my wife so much that I leave her... and if I ever do I want it to be because it's what I need to do to improve myself as a person, make my life better, and not because I fear losing her, fear what she may be doing or not doing, and so on. I never want my actions to be motivated by fear if I an help it at all.


----------



## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Heinz Doofenshmirtz said:


> Both of you make some good points that I hadn't thought about, but make a lot of sense.
> 
> With respect to my wife, I honestly don't know if how she relates to me now is because she is intentionally trying to 'persecute' me or not. But, why should that matter? What matters is how I choose to respond to her actions and behavior and handle myself when relating to her.
> 
> ...


It sounds like a far from mutually beneficial relationship in which you are helping one another to “grow”. Sometimes we just cannot grow given the history and circumstances we find ourselves in. Why? Because via Persecution for Past Offences either Real or Imagined, it sounds like from both of you in your marriage, you will both be forever held in your past. Who you “were”, not who you are now or who you may grow into.

Bob


----------



## Heinz Doofenshmirtz (Apr 12, 2011)

AFEH said:


> It sounds like a far from mutually beneficial relationship in which you are helping one another to “grow”. Sometimes we just cannot grow given the history and circumstances we find ourselves in. Why? Because via Persecution for Past Offences either Real or Imagined, it sounds like from both of you in your marriage, you will both be forever held in your past. Who you “were”, not who you are now or who you may grow into.
> 
> Bob


No, It's not a very good "mutually beneficial" relationship, but it is what it is, and I'm tired of whining about it and being a victim because of the way she's been treating me, which is what I've been doing for the last few years.

I'm doing what I can to take care of myself emotionally, psychologically, and physically, as well as professionally (which I have been sacrificing to take on more responsibility for caring for my kids, the house, etc.) 

I'm also doing the best I can to be honest and emotionally available so that when we talk I can participate with her in a constructive and proactive fashion, rather than get bogged down in my fears and dwelling on past hurts. 

If that brings her closer to me, wanting to work on our relationship more, redefine and reforge it for the future, then I will be all for it. If it doesn't, I'm putting myself in a better position to move on if I do eventually need to, even though that is not ultimately what I want.

We talked briefly this morning in fact, between my last posts and now, and she said she is happy to see that I'm doing more for myself and taking steps to improve myself and hopes that it will help improve our relationship... and she said she still loves me, still likes who I am as a person, still enjoys spending time with me, and wants to be able to spend more time with me. Exactly the kind of things I've been wanting to hear from her...

My knee-jerk reaction to that was to immediately be suspicious and to start to waffle and kow-tow to her to please her, and to bring up and dwell on past hurts and perceived transgressions, but I didn't and I stood my ground and made my feelings clear about our relationship in the here and now... I told her that I am afraid we will never be able to rebuild our relationship and that makes me heart-sick, and that I still love her, am still attracted to her, still want to be with her, and all that. And I told her that since we don't have those things in our relationship right now that I've been feeling like I need to get them from other sources, even possibly a relationship with another woman, but that that is not what I want... 

Afterwards I went to the gym and hit the exercise bike for 40 min. and did my hardest workout on it yet since I joined up. For the first time in a long while, several months, I'm feeling good about what I'm doing, and am feeling hopeful again that it will lead to good things in my relationship with her.

So here's knocking on wood... (my head!) that we can start communicating again and more effectively, and start to build a new relationship together. 

An old friend of mine who was in the army for several years used to have that "failure is not an option" saying as his primary mantra... For me, I'm using it as "Fear is not an option"... I know it wont be easy, but I honestly think and sincerely hope, that it will be easier and hurt less than what I've been going through with her the past few years. And that's why I haven't given up, don't want to give up on our marriage and relationship... something inside of me refuses to let my hope die.


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Black,

I can tell you there is light on the other side of this thing.

Go back to the Man Up thread. Or, better yet, read everything here about fitness testing.

It's likely you are failing the fitness tests because you are trying to convince your wife of the righteousness of your position. And, in this very thread, you are trying to figure out how to get your wife to "hear you" and how wise you are about what she should not be doing.

I guarantee that will never work.

What will work is to defuse the situation and let her get a peek at how SHE IS acting (not what you are saying). If she's a good woman, it's likely she will begin (baby steps here) to understand your point of view. Imagine the joy you will feel (but never show) the first time she verbalizes how you must have been feeling.

The reason my posts are now so positive is that my wife and I are now doing this. And, it's happening "enough" (nothing's perfect) that the sunrise beckons on the horizon.

Start passing the fitness tests. It's not a battlefield. MEM calls it "emotional judo" - where you channel your partner's strength away from overpowering you and into building for the future.


----------



## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Heinz Doofenshmirtz said:


> No, It's not a very good "mutually beneficial" relationship, but it is what it is, and I'm tired of whining about it and being a victim because of the way she's been treating me, which is what I've been doing for the last few years.
> 
> I'm doing what I can to take care of myself emotionally, psychologically, and physically, as well as professionally (which I have been sacrificing to take on more responsibility for caring for my kids, the house, etc.)
> 
> ...


As a more or less pure optimist, I used to think like your army buddy, that failure is not an option. Caused me a lot of grief that.

What I am saying is that failure is an option. Otherwise we become the sacrificial lamb.

Bob


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Heinz,

You sound like a really nice guy.

That's likely at the root of your marital issues:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/18181-man-up-nice-guy-reference.html

AFEH and others hang around the Men's Clubhouse. We kick these kinds of things around all the time.

Read the links - and all questions welcomed.



Heinz Doofenshmirtz said:


> No, It's not a very good "mutually beneficial" relationship, but it is what it is, and I'm tired of whining about it and being a victim because of the way she's been treating me, which is what I've been doing for the last few years.
> 
> I'm doing what I can to take care of myself emotionally, psychologically, and physically, as well as professionally (which I have been sacrificing to take on more responsibility for caring for my kids, the house, etc.)
> 
> ...


----------



## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

I would have to disagree there I think Heinz likeme suffered from MNG and has since manned up his religous perspective is just more "eastern." He is defnitley still doing everything for her instead of himself though. Which I think might be semi self dillusional. My whole out take through what I have been going through if it leads to reconcilliation great, if it doesn't just means the powers that be are preparing me for someone else. So though he says fear is not an option his actions are still motivated out of a fear of losing her. 

Speaking of which another hour before I talk to legal. going to be a fun chat I think. I kid I kid. Have a lot of things to go over with him.


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

>>He is defnitley still doing everything for her instead of himself though. Which I think might be semi self dillusional<<

Then - he has... but he hasn't.

They can always sniff out a pose as opposed to genuine detachment.


----------



## BlackMedicine357 (Jan 18, 2011)

Brennan said:


> Black,
> You know I respect what you do for our country deeply, right? I have posted before to you specifically.
> 
> Marriage isn't battle. There have been lots of references here about military and war and that is not what marriage is or should be about. I get that you are a solutions oriented guy, most men are. They see a problem and they fix it. It is a point between A and B. Many do not however see what the "fallout" could be. In zeroing in on your wife's issues and problems and trying to come up with your solution, you marginalize her. She needs to do this on her own accord. I think that if you took a step back and took off the solution cap, you might give her some breathing room to examine herself.
> ...


Yes, Brennan, I do know your respect for us, and I sincerely value your counsel on these boards as I do your friendship.

That said, perhaps my thought processes may be masking the truth of who I actually am and where my personal approach may be mistaken for militant, solutions oriented approach.

Many people see the military as an ugly, but necessary beast. Like having a large, mean, loyal dog in a bad neighborhood. You feed him and care for his needs and take him to the vet for shots and train him not to eat you or your family while chaining him in the yard to ward off all the evil around your house. But really, as long as you are able to carry on comfortably with your life and the bad guys are staying away from your yard and stuff, you care less that the dog can be an intelligent loyal and dedicated companion. This is 1-dimensional thinking. For the most part American troops understand this perception of the military and while disappointed they accept "Being the watchdog against the dark." Sadly this public perception is far from true.

Most service members are some of the most intelligent and dedicated people in the world. American troops are the best trained, and best equipped in the world bar none. Far from being one dimensional, the last 20 years have seen new and exceptional skills and talent appear in our military. Some, (old war dogs) criticize the technology savvy and intelligent modern troops for not being as tough and looking for easy, "be friends with everybody" solutions so as not offend the international community and promote peace without conflict. Another disservice to our warfighters these days. 

Troops today are less dumb, explosive heavy handed weapons that are dropped on the enemy. They are trained to function within the chain of command surely, they go and do what they are told. But they also are trained and educated to function better individually, making better decisions and taking appropriate action efficiently, relying more on intelligent action rather than force. They can "bring the pain" as well as any soldiers in the past, but they also represent our great country honorably around the world. Nations plead for them to come and help in their time of need, be it conflict (like Iraq, The 'Stan, or lately Libya.) or disaster (Haiti and Japan)

They are just like every other person in this world. They want to enjoy their lives, find meaning in their work, love deeply and end life having made a difference. They sacrifice and their families sacrifice constantly, and usually willingly if not enthusiastically. Because they believe freedom is not free and they possess the skills and talents to keep us all safer, happier and productive. They will pay the price and face the ugly to do this. 

Maybe I do come off as simplistic, militant, and solutions oriented on the boards. It is many times the best approach but not always. I do know that I am not at war with my W. I am in conflict with her and seeking to love her better. That is why I came to TAM. I realized I lacked skills and talent that I could develop here and turn around what I truly believed would be a failed marriage instead of the forever relationship with the person I chose above all others and vowed to care for til we die.

I'm not just some big, mean dog in the yard. I'm your friend and want the best for you.

Black


----------



## BlackMedicine357 (Jan 18, 2011)

AFEH said:


> Black, believe me you have a total inability to understand the problem you face. You don’t understand the “problem” and even if you did you will never be able to cure or resolve it. And I mean never, no matter what you do. Plus you are way over confident in your ability to “solve the problem”. Way over confident.
> 
> In essence, you are living with a woman who in a many ways hates you. Hate is a very strong word, but yes she hates you. And added to that she has one heck of lot of anger aimed at you inside of her. It is like she is carrying around inside of her massive grudges (ill will, rancour) against you, huge great “chips on her shoulder”.
> 
> ...


Bob...where did this come from? I'm used to reading your posts with interest and find them valuable. But this reply is virtual fertilizer. 

I'm forced to think that 1 of 2 templates may be at play within you thought processes toward my situation.

Either you are seeing me as a big, dumb, ham-handed jerk of a "SOULJAH" or you are trying to psychologically slap some sense into me for shock value and hope to turn me from naive, skip the path merrily, canned step by step fix it mentality. Don't take this as an insult but both of these are dead WRONG. 

I came to TAM seeking wisdom and friendship, seeking to save my marriage. All that I've learned from previous efforts to love my wife better and stabilize my family so my daughters leave my home smart, loved, safe and stable before I came here is that "NONE OF IT HELPED!" 

I found that there is no easy fix to this 21 year relationship. It will take time, behavior change, core thought shift and resources of many kinds. It very well might take the rest of my life. But I feel that my love for my W can carry me forward through the tough times, and above all if things can be restored and even better with her than before, everything spent and painful toil will all be worth it. I value my life with her that much. There are no guarantees I know, but to me that life is second only to my relationship with God, my Creator.

So BOB, try not to disappoint me again by spreading horse manure on my situation and hoping something good will grow. I have developed way too much respect for you and your thoughts which help many of us.

Black


----------



## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Conrad said:


> Black,
> 
> I can tell you there is light on the other side of this thing.
> 
> ...


Listen to Conrad, Black. LISTEN TO HIM.

I have never been married to military but I was around it (as you know) all my life. It's tough. It's really tough for all involved. Husband deployed for months or years who comes back. The family dynamic constantly shifts. She has to be the strong one when you are gone and when you return, you are the strong one. Power struggle 101. 
Conrad is absolutely correct that she is fitness testing. She wants to see if her giving up her control is worthy of you. Prove it.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Black,
Wanted to add that you do not come off as simplistic, far from it. I think you are far more complicated than you know.
You want the two of you to go to counseling. I understand that. She doesn't want to go. I get that. What if you were to go to individual counseling? Therapy is therapy, it isn't a sign of weakness at all. Go, just you. Not only will you gain a better understanding of yourself but in doing so, you pass a "fitness test" of hers. Self exploration. Right now and I guarantee it, she is looking to see what you are bringing to the table. All she sees is you trying to change her. Work on yourself and you might see some remarkable efforts on her behalf. You ARE a solutions oriented guy. The only problem you can solve in your marriage is you. Go for yourself. 
Once again Black, thank you.


----------



## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Black, your headliner is “How do you handle being beat up with the past?”.

For “being beat up with the past” read “Unresolved Conflict” plus “Unforgiving” plus “Bitterness and Resentment”. I would imagine that those “things” are the exact opposite to you. I would imagine that you a) resolve conflict at the time it happens, b) find it easy to forgive and c) do not hold bitterness and resentment inside of you. That is, in these things, these deeply held, non negotiable values and beliefs, you and your wife are the exact opposites.

Bitterness and resentment is “Strong anger and strong dislike (hatred?) against another person (you) for real or imagined offences”. Where do the “imagined offences” come from? These particular types offences come about because the “issue” or the “conflict” was not resolved at the time it happened and in your wife’s mind they became distorted (imagined) over time. There will be some basis of “fact” associated with the offence, but you will not be able to recognise the offence should your wife ever describe it to you.

I met a couple who do marriage counselling last Sunday. Between them they run a Marriage Enrichment course. They spoke about the two styles of “handling conflict”, the Hedgehog (curls up into a ball and “internalises”) and the Rhino (meets conflict head-on and externalises). Out of the two, which one do you think you are? And which one do you think your wife is?

Have a look at Marriage Enrichment Course and research with terms like “Marriage Enrichment”, “Alpha”, “Hedgehog”, “Rhino” etc.

What I like about the program is “building strong foundations”, “the art of communication”, “resolving conflict”, “the power of forgiveness”, “parents and in-laws”, “good sex” and “love in action”.


Now. Your wife will not go to marriage counselling with you. As an aside that is a massive “red flag”. Why wont she go? My thoughts are that she “likes things as they are, she likes the status quo”. I honestly think that those who hold onto past grudges cannot imagine living without them, because in part those grudges define their life and who they are. It’s deep stuff. Plus some people are so very private that they will not discuss their “deepest issues” with anybody.

But this Marriage Enrichment program does not involved a couple talking with an MC. It is more a series of “how to” and there are generally 12 couples in the series. Individual, specific problems are not discussed.

So your wife “should” have no objection to attending a Marriage Enrichment program where individual problems aren't discussed, should she? If she will not attend the program the issues between you are exceedingly big.

Bob


----------



## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Dr you’d better come quick, my wife is historical. Historical? Surely you mean hysterical. No! She’s HISTORICAL. She keeps on bringing up the past.


----------



## BlackMedicine357 (Jan 18, 2011)

Thanks Bob. I've developed quite a bit of respect and admiration for you and your counsel. Along with MEM and Conrad, you 3 consistently offer useful, practical wisdom and hold the position, in my opinion, the 'Sages' here on TAM. 

I will be on later today to reply to your post, but know that your 4:31 AM reply is closer to the AFEH/Bob that I know. Kind, thoughtful wisdom. Can't beat it.


----------



## BlackMedicine357 (Jan 18, 2011)

AFEH said:


> Dr you’d better come quick, my wife is historical. Historical? Surely you mean hysterical. No! She’s HISTORICAL. She keeps on bringing up the past.


:rofl: Literally, I am :rofl: in my office!


----------



## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

BlackMedicine357 said:


> :rofl: Literally, I am :rofl: in my office!


Good! Been there, seen it, done it.

You know as well as I do Black that all the training in the world, while it helps prepare us, is just “information”. That’s all it is. We don’t get the “knowledge” until we go through these things ourselves. And when we’ve been there and got “the knowledge”, a bit like a Vet, we can then pass our knowledge onto others. But in most cases our knowledge is again just “information” to others … and they must go there and turn that information into knowledge.

I had a couple of mates metaphorically smacking me on the side of the head when I was going through my stuff. It was only when they picked up a baseball bat I started to give attention to what they were telling me. Even then, with all my “filters on” it took a long while to sink in.

Bob

PS: I’m a "Brit", hence the different time zone ... and I know SAS is number one lol.


----------



## BlackMedicine357 (Jan 18, 2011)

Yeah, I've heard the SAS blokes spouting between quaffs in the pub about being #1, but I thought they were talking about being targets.

Kidding aside, the SAS guys I've been privileged know and work with are top troops and some of the best operators in the business. Also some of the craziest and funniest people I've ever seen. I've fallen to my knees laughing many times blue from hypoxia, laughing at them. Best of all types of warriors, trained killers with a wicked sense of humor.


----------



## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

There is nothing to gain in dredging up the past of someone who genuinely believes they are blameless. They don't care what you think and it makes you look small. Concentrate on NOW.


----------



## BlackMedicine357 (Jan 18, 2011)

Conrad said:


> Black,
> 
> I can tell you there is light on the other side of this thing.
> 
> ...


Sound advice Conrad. You got into my skull and must be reading my mail because that is exactly my thought (bold in quote above.) Sounds conceited when I see it in print. But I do try to approach this logically and rationally with her, and you are correct it hasn't worked.

Perhaps I have been looking at "fitness tests" wrong. My approach to what I consider her fitness tests is to refuse to jump through her hoops. That may be the jackass approach. Maybe I could pass a few of them and see what the result is, but, BIG BUT, I'll not go back to beta behavior as her whipping boy. Too tired of that.

Glad that you and your W are within site of the sun. Still quite dark here. But I light a candle for myself occasionally.

Black


----------



## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

BlackMedicine357 said:


> Yeah, I've heard the SAS blokes spouting between quaffs in the pub about being #1, but I thought they were talking about being targets.


:rofl: Priceless :rofl:


----------



## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

I think for some, their “grudges about past offences”, real or imagined, are their “weapons of choice” in conflict.

Let’s say a conflict is right now, it’s current and lines have been drawn. The person with the grudge will not accept their responsibility for the current conflict so out comes that “grudge weapon” (something from the past, perhaps years ago) and it’s used with magnificent effect.

First off it’s a superb diversion tactic. The focus on the current conflict is totally obliterated and the opponent is totally blind sided (I didn’t see that one coming!!!). Plus because being who we are that grudge which even though we cannot understand it, wounds us. So not only has the enemy been totally diverted, they’re now fighting a battle they never knew existed, they’ve also been wounded and they are now totally on the defence. And guess what? The current conflict never gets resolved.

It’s mind bogglingly clever and oh so cunning.

We could all “bear grudges from the past”. We can all do that but a lot of us choose not to. But one thing I never tried was to create a list of things that I could have held grudges about. And then keep that list handy and when in the next “conflict” and that “grudge weapon” is used, pull the list out and start saying things like “In 1993 you did (whatever), I’ll never ever forgive you for that”. You never know your wife may even have an epiphany moment. Which is what she needs.

Bob


----------



## BlackMedicine357 (Jan 18, 2011)

That's exactly the picture of the the "history stick" that I want to address with the thread. 

Past offenses (real or imagined) that are brought up in the present argument or conflict.

How can you deflect the blow with edgy humor? Or deflect it effectively in any way and steer the conversation back to the current issue?


----------



## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Black, I was with my wife for 42 years. I’ve been separated for 16 months. I never found a “solution” to the problem. I hope others can for you. The following made one heck of a lot of sense to me.

Predictable Patterns of Marriage Breakdown
Mark Dombeck, Ph.D.

Predictable patterns of marriage breakdown
There is no single reason why a relationship begins to break down. However, once a relationship does start to break down, there is a predictable sequence of events that tends to occur. Highly regarded psychologist and researcher John Gottman, Ph.D. suggests that there are four stages to this sequence which he has labelled, “The Four Horsemen Of the Apocalypse”.

First Stage
The first stage of the breakdown process involves intractable conflict and complaints. All couples have conflicts from time to time, but some couples are able to resolve those conflicts successfully or ‘agree to disagree’, while others find that they are not. As we observed earlier, it is not the number or intensity of arguments that is problematic but rather whether or not resolution of those arguments is likely or possible. Couples that get into trouble find themselves in conflicts that they cannot resolve or compromise upon to both party’s satisfaction. Such disagreements can be caused by any number of reasons, but might involve a clash of spousal values on core topics such as whether to have children, or how to handle money.

Frequently, couples assume that misunderstandings are at the root of their conflicts. “If my spouse really understood why I act as I do, he or she would agree with me and go along with what I want”, is a commonly overheard refrain. Acting on this belief, spouses often try to resolve their conflicts by repeatedly stating and restating their respective rationales during disagreements. This strategy of repetition usually doesn’t work because most of the time couple conflicts are not based on misunderstandings, but rather on real differences in values. When this is the case, stating and restating one’s position is based on a mistaken premise and can only cause further upset.

Second Stage
In the second stage of the breakdown process, one or both spouses starts to feel contempt for the other, and each spouse’s attitudes about their partner change for the worse. For example, initially each spouse may have mostly positive regard for their partner and be willing to write off any ‘bad’ or ’stupid’ behaviour their partner acts out as a transient, uncommon stress-related event. However, as ‘bad’ or ’stupid’ behaviour is observed again and again, spouses get frustrated, start to regard their partner as actually being a ‘bad’ or ’stupid’ person, and begin to treat their partner accordingly. Importantly, the ‘bad’ behaviour that the spouse demonstrates doesn’t have to be something he or she actually does. Instead, it could be something that he or she doesn’t do, that the spouse expects them to do (such as remembering to put the toilet seat down after use).

Conflict by itself doesn’t predict marriage problems. Some couples fight a lot but somehow never manage to lose respect for each other. Once contempt sets in, however, the marriage is on shaky ground. Feelings of contempt for one’s spouse are a powerful predictor of relationship breakdown, no matter how subtlety they are displayed. In a famous study, Gottman was able to predict with over 80% accuracy the future divorces of multiple couples he and his team observed based on subtle body language cues suggesting contemptuous feelings (such as dismissive eye-rolling). Contempt doesn’t have to be expressed openly for it to be hard at work rotting the foundations of one’s relationship.

Third Stage
Most people find conflict and contempt to be stressful and react to such conditions by entering the third stage of breakdown, characterized by partner’s increasingly defensive behaviour. Men in particular (but women too) become hardened by the chronicity of the ongoing conflict, and may react even more acutely during moments when conflict is most heated by becoming overwhelmed and “flooded”; a condition which is psychologically and emotionally quite painful. Over time, partners learn to expect that they are ‘gridlocked’; that they cannot resolve their differences, and that any attempts at resolution will result in further overwhelm, hurt or disappointment.

Fourth Stage
Rather than face the pain and overwhelm they expect to experience, partners who have reached this third ‘defensive’ stage, may progress to the forth and final stage of breakdown, characterized by a breakdown of basic trust between the partners, and increasing disengagement in the name of self-protection. Like a steam-valve in a pressure cooker, the partners start avoiding one another so as to minimize their conflicts. Gottman calls this final stage, “Stonewalling”, perhaps after the image of a partner hiding behind a stone wall designed to protect him or her from further assault. Unfortunately, there is no way to love your partner when you are hiding behind a wall to protect yourself from him or her.

The “four horsemen” breakdown sequence plays out amongst the backdrop of partner compatibility. Basically compatible partners may demonstrate a whole lot of conflict, but they don’t often become contemptuous and angry with their partners, because there are by definition few things that they will disagree upon. In contrast, partners who start out with incompatible goals, values or dreams are far more likely to get into seemingly irresolvable conflicts. Also, once the process of contempt, defensiveness and avoidance begins, small incompatibilities can become magnified as spouses pursue other interests as an alternative to conflict.


----------



## Heinz Doofenshmirtz (Apr 12, 2011)

Hi all, been busy with work and whatnot...



AFEH said:


> As a more or less pure optimist, I used to think like your army buddy, that failure is not an option. Caused me a lot of grief that.
> 
> What I am saying is that failure is an option. Otherwise we become the sacrificial lamb.
> 
> Bob


Bob, never said it wasn't; please don't assume that's what I am saying...

But, why should that reality stop me from working towards rebuilding my own life, and potentially building a new relationship with my wife? It sounds like you've become quite defeatist. 



Conrad said:


> Heinz,
> 
> You sound like a really nice guy.
> 
> ...


It's not so much that I've been being too nice. I have always tried to be considerate of my wife though, but I've still inadvertently done some pretty selfish things, and there have been times I've been downright inconsiderate and disrespectful of her, and in some ways perhaps even abusive.

But the problem is not 'being too nice'... the problem is that I stopped being responsible for my own experience in my relationship with her, and placed that burden on her. I expected her to do what I wanted to make me feel good about myself and our relationship when I should have been doing that myself. In fact, I think that I did that is NOT nice... it was judgmental and sanctimonious of me in many ways. Not to mention irresponsible and immature.

I'm starting to things for myself now, things that will improve who I am and my situation in life... putting more work into developing my career that I'd been sacrificing to try and do things to get approval from her, to try and get her to do things to make me feel good about myself, but that have really just blown up in my face and made me miserable the past five years or so.

Not that I am not going to try to be considerate of her, or not compromise with her, but I'm not going to be placing the responsibility for what my own experience of our relationship is and how I experience it on her anymore, and then be a whiny little ***** victim when she doesn't do what I want anymore.

If I can't do those things for myself, how can I, or why should I, expect that she should or will do them for me? And if I don't take care of myself, how can I expect to be able to take care of my kids? I don't know why it took me so long to see this; in retrospect I feel kind of stupid about it. But to paraphrase a famous quote, I am the captain of my ship, I am the determiner of my destiny, and I'm not going to give that away, or try to make her do it for me as the case may be, anymore.


----------



## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Heinz Doofenshmirtz said:


> Hi, new here...
> 
> I find myself falling victim to this as well... I have great difficulty letting go of past transgressions my wife has made against me and I end up using that against her in arguments. I even do it with things she has said that were not specifically 'transgressions' so to speak, but just a comment she may have made about something that I end up thinking was indicative of something that is now a problem in our relationship, and that I should have been more vigilant about that before I got so involved with her and then married.
> 
> ...


Heinz, does "Forgive or relive" make any sense to you?

Bob


----------



## Heinz Doofenshmirtz (Apr 12, 2011)

AFEH said:


> Heinz, does "Forgive or relive" make any sense to you?
> 
> Bob


Bob,

You seem to keep making attributions to me that I have not specifically made. Yes, it is difficult to let go of the past sometimes, but you seem to think that I'm deliberately trying to hold onto it, when I am not.

Perhaps I have not made myself clear; the reason I've had difficulty with this is because of my own issues, not so much because of hers. And, I've also mentioned that I am working now to improve myself and a part of that is to help myself let go of the past.

If I have not been clear on that, please just ask.


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Stay with me Black,

Here's the key. "Nudge don't judge" -my wife's line.

If you are determined to make her hear you, the game is lost. You will never leave room for her point of view.

If, however, she brings up the past and you have a one-line quip that makes her laugh? Or, she walks into the room and starts in on you - with a sly grin, you mention the heaping praise you just received for the project you just finished (that she missed)

Remember - playful tone.

Still not jumping through any hoops - but not intimidating either.

What you're doing is flashing a yellow amber light at where she doesn't want to go. If you go straight to Defcon 1 and dig in - she'll dig in harder and gunnysack every sin you've ever committed.

If you get "bigger" than her - emotionally - then you're the bad guy.

And, she adds to her sack.

And, the fitness tests will INCREASE in frequency - until you start passing them.



BlackMedicine357 said:


> Sound advice Conrad. You got into my skull and must be reading my mail because that is exactly my thought (bold in quote above.) Sounds conceited when I see it in print. But I do try to approach this logically and rationally with her, and you are correct it hasn't worked.
> 
> Perhaps I have been looking at "fitness tests" wrong. My approach to what I consider her fitness tests is to refuse to jump through her hoops. That may be the jackass approach. Maybe I could pass a few of them and see what the result is, but, BIG BUT, I'll not go back to beta behavior as her whipping boy. Too tired of that.
> 
> ...


----------

