# Is she cheating?



## intuitionoramiwrong (Mar 18, 2014)

Okay - I lurked here a few months ago and got some ideas, which I put into place, here is my story.

Been married for 12 years. Three children. I admittedly am very selfish. My wife always put me and the kids first, and I always put myself first. I realize that now, and I see how it could have a major impact on how my wife sees me. 

About a year ago she became distant. All of her other behaviors are completely text book when I read these forums, of women who were found out to have cheated. She keeps her phone locked at all times (though not always ON her, it does sit on the counter when we are home), but always locked. She used to work late a few times a month. Started going out with her friends more, doing more things outside of the home. One day she came to me and told me how unhappy she was and how she didn't think the marriage was working anymore. I was blown away. I knew I hadn't been perfect, but she seemed completely done. I begged (wrong move) and admittedly have somehow manipulated her into staying through guilt. I know if I acted more in control of my emotions she probably would be gone by now. I feel completely pathetic writing that out. I have made MAJOR changes. I help more, I never say no when she wants to go do something, I clean, I cook, I do anything I can to make her life easier...which as I read more on here is probably not the right thing to do. I am seriously at a loss.

I guess I just cannot believe that she would want to leave unless she had something lined up. 

But here is the kicker - I got a VAR, put it in her car about 4-5 months ago and I have never caught her saying or doing anything out of the ordinary. It's hours upon hours of her singing to the radio. A few calls to people, only one I wasn't sure who she was calling, but it was a call about weekend plans involving the kids and I went with her that particular weekend, so it had to be one of her friends. Turns out she almost never even makes a call from the car, almost every call that was made was to me. 

I also got a GPS. I've never caught her anywhere she didn't say she was going to be. On the nights she claims to be working late, she is at work. I guess in my paranoia all I can think is maybe someone is picking her up there? Maybe it's a co-worker?? 

Her phone - It's a work issued phone and I have no access to the bill. She is on it a lot. 

She never uses the home computer, I installed a key logger and the only thing she's looked up is recipes. 

I feel like I am at a loss. Is there anything else I can do to verify she isn't cheating? Or am I just that bad of a husband that she can't get past the old selfish me and accept that I am genuinely making changes??

I know this is kind of all over the place... I just really have no idea what else to do.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Have you ever asked her for the unlock code for her phone?


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## thebadguy (Dec 7, 2012)

My vote is that your wife is a good woman trying to live a good life.

And unless she is just using this time to prepare paperwork and get ducks in a row, it appears she is giving you a chance. 

Approach her, tell her you have seen the light and your behavior is the proof and will she please give it a shot.


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## intuitionoramiwrong (Mar 18, 2014)

Hope1964 said:


> Have you ever asked her for the unlock code for her phone?


There have been a few times I have helped her with her phone and when I needed it unlocked, she didn't tell me the passcode, she came and unlocked it, and watched the whole time I was trying to figure out the issue with it. I knew her code at one time but it has changed.

I asked her last year if there was someone else. Now I realize if there is, I don't want to act suspicious, and I think asking for her passcode would send an affair underground. 

I don't know..I really have no experience with this other than what I'm reading on this site.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

She may not be doing anything at all, but I would want to rule out the phone if I were you. Isn't there something you can come up with? Like, when she's just started a shower, tell her your phone just died and you really need to make a call and what's the code? It really is suspicious that she's so protective of it.


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## intuitionoramiwrong (Mar 18, 2014)

thebadguy said:


> My vote is that your wife is a good woman trying to live a good life.
> 
> And unless she is just using this time to prepare paperwork and get ducks in a row, it appears she is giving you a chance.
> 
> Approach her, tell her you have seen the light and your behavior is the proof and will she please give it a shot.


I want to believe this too, but she seems to want nothing to do with me. We are civil but there is no affection from her at all. She doesn't initiate sex, ever. She doesn't hug me, doesn't cuddle, nothing. Ever. We give a "peck" kiss when we are going to work or coming home, but it's more a habit than an intention, and I don't think she would even do it if I didn't move in for a kiss. 

When we hug I feel her pull away. She acts completely done with me.


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## Tobyboy (Jun 13, 2013)

How has she changed?

Does she dress different(sexier)?
Has she lost weight? Working out more?
Your sex life? More or less...different?
Does she let you see her naked?

Does she talk about co-workers(males) or work? 

Any toxic friends?


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

Look up "walk away wife". While it wouldn't surprise me if your wife was having an affair, you've eliminated a number of likely avenues of investigation. That would leave the next most obvious... She put in her time trying to hold things together, but now she's checked out and done 

You might be able to turn her around by continuing to demonstrate that you've changed. Not just for her, but for your sake. If you can get her into marriage counselling, you might get some support as well. But the biggest thing I can give you is to continue to demonstrate that you understand where you've failed in the last, and you're doing better at not repeating those mistakes. Without ever coming out and explicitly saying that... Demonstrate through your actions, not your words. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## intuitionoramiwrong (Mar 18, 2014)

Tobyboy said:


> How has she changed?
> 
> Does she dress different(sexier)?
> Has she lost weight? Working out more?
> ...


In short, she used to want to be near me all the time and now I don't think she would notice or care if I ever was home. And again, she isn't rude or mean, she treats me like a brother. 

A few years ago her job required her to start dressing up, instead of jeans and casual clothing, so yes, kind of. She always looks great. 

She is always trying to lose weight, but stays about the same. She doesn't go to the gym but will occasionally go to a zumba class. 

Sex life is basically non-existent.

She doesn't avoid being naked in front of me, but it's only when she is dressing or getting out of the shower. And she seems to hurry it, but I know it's because she doesn't want me to ask to have sex. 

She does have 2 friends that I feel are toxic. One cheated on her husband about 15 years ago, and both friends I could see cheating for sure.


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## intuitionoramiwrong (Mar 18, 2014)

She will talk about some male co-workers, but it's usually about how annoying they are and how unhappy she is with different aspects of work. Never in a positive light.


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## TheFlood117 (Mar 24, 2013)

intuitionoramiwrong said:


> Okay - I lurked here a few months ago and got some ideas, which I put into place, here is my story.
> 
> Been married for 12 years. Three children. I admittedly am very selfish. My wife always put me and the kids first, and I always put myself first. I realize that now, and I see how it could have a major impact on how my wife sees me.
> 
> ...


Nah, listen to your gut. You know somethings going on, it may not be infidelity but something is up. You can feel it huh. I know I did. It's like there's something under the surface, like a facade, almost like a fog so to speak. You can quite point your finger on it. Then you snoop. And you snoop and you will find it. Whatever it is. 

Get the phone. 

I need to ask. 

You said you've been on this before, kinda looking at threads and stuff before you posted right? 

Is your wife watching you? 

Is your wife tech savvy?

High IQ? 

A good liar? 

The answers above could be telling. 

But.... I don't want you to jump to any conclusions. It could be nothing, it could be just marriage and men and women stuff. 

Is she pregnant? 

Death in the family? 

Is she sick? Are you sick? 

What's her friends like?


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## Tobyboy (Jun 13, 2013)

intuitionoramiwrong said:


> In short, she used to want to be near me all the time and now I don't think she would notice or care if I ever was home. And again, she isn't rude or mean, she treats me like a brother.
> 
> A few years ago her job required her to start dressing up, instead of jeans and casual clothing, so yes, kind of. She always looks great.
> 
> ...


Does she go out much with these "toxic" friends?
Is she drinking more(drunk)?
Stays out later than before?
Spending the night at her friends?


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

Do you believe she could agreed to MC?


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

You were a bad husband. She told you she wanted to leave. Now you are a better husband.

Cheating or not, your course of action is no different.
It's to decide what you want in life....
IF you want the status quo, do nothing.
If you want something better, you invite her to be a part of that and let her make the choice.


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## TheFlood117 (Mar 24, 2013)

Just read your last post. 


MAJOR RED FLAGS. 

Good luck. Get the phone and/or hire a PI. 

Your economic, emotional and physical well being is at stake. 



I think She's being coached.


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## Cubby (Mar 28, 2012)

Well, this is an unusual opening post. Usually the guys here can't believe his wife is cheating and have to be talked into snooping. This guy can't believe his wife ISN'T cheating.

Since you've got nothing on the VAR after a lot of time, I'm thinking she's not cheating. Although getting a look at her phone and phone records would give you a true answer. So somehow, that's what you have to do.


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## jack.c (Sep 7, 2013)

intuitionoramiwrong said:


> I want to believe this too, but she seems to want nothing to do with me. We are civil but there is no affection from her at all. She doesn't initiate sex, ever. She doesn't hug me, doesn't cuddle, nothing. Ever. We give a "peck" kiss when we are going to work or coming home, but it's more a habit than an intention, and I don't think she would even do it if I didn't move in for a kiss.
> 
> When we hug I feel her pull away. She acts completely done with me.



When you ask her why, what does she say?


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## Tobyboy (Jun 13, 2013)

intuitionoramiwrong said:


> She will talk about some male co-workers, but it's usually about how annoying they are and how unhappy she is with different aspects of work. Never in a positive light.


Tell us more about this. Is it really always negative talk? 
One clue that most betrayed spouse miss is the one where the wayward just stops mentioning a certain person....like they didn't exist!!


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## TheFlood117 (Mar 24, 2013)

Somethings up, now I can feel it lol. 

Tell us more about the guys from work.


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## intuitionoramiwrong (Mar 18, 2014)

She does go out drinking with the toxic friends on occasion. Maybe once every 2 months. Otherwise she goes to their houses, and she almost always brings the kids (we all have children the same ages). They have girls nights without kids, but that is usually a week night and they stay in. 

She doesn't spend the night with them.

She does go out of town to stay with a cousin once every few months...but I don't know the cousin very well, this could be something, but how would I know? Her GPS puts her at that house... 

I am not sure how to pay a PI without her knowing. She does the bills and would notice money missing.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

TheFlood117 said:


> Somethings up, now I can feel it lol.
> 
> Tell us more about the guys from work.


Next time her phone is laying around, call it.
Then you can access it I believe.


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## intuitionoramiwrong (Mar 18, 2014)

jack.c said:


> When you ask her why, what does she say?



I don't need to ask. She doesn't want to be there. Like I said in my original pathetic post...I think she feels bad for me and that's why she is there. I avoid serious conversations because I think if I gave her an inkling of an "out" she'd be out the door. 

I will admit I have used guilt, sadness and anger on her. Never acceptance. I have told her if she leaves she isn't taking anything, she will get nothing...other random remarks. 

I'm not proud of this. I just can't seem to buy that she is unwilling to try and make this work....


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## intuitionoramiwrong (Mar 18, 2014)

TheFlood117 said:


> Somethings up, now I can feel it lol.
> 
> Tell us more about the guys from work.


She works in a very male dominated field. And it isn't that she talks about one particular male..more the organization as a whole.


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## Tobyboy (Jun 13, 2013)

intuitionoramiwrong said:


> She does go out drinking with the toxic friends on occasion. Maybe once every 2 months. Otherwise she goes to their houses, and she almost always brings the kids (we all have children the same ages). They have girls nights without kids, but that is usually a week night and they stay in.
> 
> She doesn't spend the night with them.
> 
> ...


Does she have a facebook account? Do you have the password?

GPS will tell you where her vehicle is at....nothing more!


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*It sounds greatly like you might actually need the help of a PI now! In addition, have her email and FB account monitored!*


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## TheFlood117 (Mar 24, 2013)

Is the cousin male or female? 

What's the situation with that? 

Why do you let her control the money? 


You need to see an attorney here bro. Cover your bases, I think you wife is. 


Is she smart. Like a high IQ???


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## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

if you can follow her or get a pi to do it, to her cousin's house the next time she goes maybe used a rent-a-car

I would concentrate on the phone, the cousin's house, and the co workers and her face book.
Tell us about this cousin she has, it maybe that she is using the house when they are not there, maybe even the cousin knows?


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## intuitionoramiwrong (Mar 18, 2014)

Tobyboy said:


> Does she have a facebook account? Do you have the password?
> 
> GPS will tell you where her vehicle is at....nothing more!



She has facebook, I don't have the password, and like I said, she doesn't use the computer at home. She has a desk job, so she gets her fill of computer time at work. And our three children keep her busy in the evenings after work and the weekends, she doesn't have the opportunity to really browse the internet at home. She does have an ipad, but she doesn't use it very often and she is logged out of facebook on it.


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## TheFlood117 (Mar 24, 2013)

Is she a cop or Lawyer???


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## intuitionoramiwrong (Mar 18, 2014)

TheFlood117 said:


> Is the cousin male or female?
> 
> What's the situation with that?
> 
> ...


The cousin is female. They used to work together but then her cousin moved about 5 hours away, so she goes to visit her. She admits it's to get away and for a break. She plans the time out with me in advance. 

She controls the money because I am a spender. She is a saver. She took over the bills so that things would be paid on time. Not in a controlling way. She isn't controlling at all. 

She is smart, I wouldn't say she has a high IQ. I am smarter than her on paper.


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## intuitionoramiwrong (Mar 18, 2014)

TheFlood117 said:


> Is she a cop or Lawyer???


No. She works for a police agency, but is a civilian.


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## Tobyboy (Jun 13, 2013)

intuitionoramiwrong said:


> She has facebook, I don't have the password, and like I said, she doesn't use the computer at home. She has a desk job, so she gets her fill of computer time at work. And our three children keep her busy in the evenings after work and the weekends, she doesn't have the opportunity to really browse the internet at home. She does have an ipad, but she doesn't use it very often and she is logged out of facebook on it.


You need to get into her facebook....fast!!!


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## TheFlood117 (Mar 24, 2013)

Well, with info you've given. 

Here's my 2 cents. 

First, see a lawyer and get a PI. Borrow the money if need be. Call in a favor.

Also, just flat out ask her if she's having an affair. See if she's lying (there are tells for this) read up on them. 

I think she's got some dude on the string in her cousin's town. 

Either that, or it's a co-worker/work contact. 

Good luck. But I think the skillset this forum would provide, you've basically done (VAR's, keyloggers, ect..) time for a professional. 

Get the PI. Get peace of mind.


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## mahike (Aug 16, 2011)

Something is going on I am sure your gut is on to something but it could be a number of things. A that is over, she is checking out of the marriage without an A or she is in an A but she is really good at hiding it.

Next time she is in the shower, call her phone and answer it. You will be in. Check messages, phone log and picture file.

You can also surprise her at work, show up at lunch time and see what happens. Or the next time she works late show up to bring her something to eat.

Have you talked about the lack of sex? Have you told her your expectations? How old are you guys?

I hope it is nothing and can be worked out but if you are feeling something is wrong that it probably is.


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## TheFlood117 (Mar 24, 2013)

She works with cops, so she's dispatch or office staff, but she's around cops... Good looking, in shape young guys in a position of power... and so on and so on. 


Yeah. She is being coached by literally a professional, probably a detective but could be a line officer or staff Sergeant. 

Like I said, good luck bro. 


LAWYER UP. 

Don't ask her about the affair. She's been lying for quite awhile and really good at it, and I don't think you'll be able to detect it.


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## intuitionoramiwrong (Mar 18, 2014)

mahike said:


> Something is going on I am sure your gut is on to something but it could be a number of things. A that is over, she is checking out of the marriage without an A or she is in an A but she is really good at hiding it.
> 
> Next time she is in the shower, call her phone and answer it. You will be in. Check messages, phone log and picture file.
> 
> ...


She has an iphone, if I answer it when it rings, it just goes back to lock screen when the call is over, I think?? 

She just says she has no interest in sex. Which is completely different from the way she used to be.


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## intuitionoramiwrong (Mar 18, 2014)

TheFlood117 said:


> Well, with info you've given.
> 
> Here's my 2 cents.
> 
> ...


If I can figure out how to pay for a PI, I will do so. 

The lawyer though..I feel ridiculous calling "hey been spying on my wife for several months, have come up with nothing.." what am I calling a lawyer for exactly?


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## mahike (Aug 16, 2011)

intuitionoramiwrong said:


> She has an iphone, if I answer it when it rings, it just goes back to lock screen when the call is over, I think??
> 
> She just says she has no interest in sex. Which is completely different from the way she used to be.


Be calm but tell her that does not work for you, tell her your expectations and see how she reacts.

No sex is a big sign she is doing someone else or could she be going through a change of life? That could happen as early as 40.


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## TheFlood117 (Mar 24, 2013)

No. She just doesn't have interest in sex WITH YOU. 

Luck favors the prepared. You need to start preparing yourself for a life without her. 180. See lawyer, see PI. Then go from there. But you gotta be proactive here. Do things ONLY IN YOUR BEST INTEREST. 

It is, what it is.


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## intuitionoramiwrong (Mar 18, 2014)

TheFlood117 said:


> Well, with info you've given.
> 
> Here's my 2 cents.
> 
> ...


It seems like it would be very expensive to get a PI to follow her 5 hours away...??


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## Tobyboy (Jun 13, 2013)

intuitionoramiwrong said:


> She has an iphone, if I answer it when it rings, it just goes back to lock screen when the call is over, I think??
> 
> She just says she has no interest in sex. Which is completely different from the way she used to be.


Is she on birth control? 
Or any other meds?


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## intuitionoramiwrong (Mar 18, 2014)

Tobyboy said:


> Is she on birth control?
> Or any other meds?


No, not that I know of.


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## Tobyboy (Jun 13, 2013)

intuitionoramiwrong said:


> No, not that I know of.


No BC's?

What do you two use/used?

Have you gone through her car/purse?


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## intuitionoramiwrong (Mar 18, 2014)

Tobyboy said:


> No BC's?
> 
> What do you two use/used?
> 
> Have you gone through her car/purse?


I had a vasectomy after the birth of our third child. 

One day I told her I grabbed something out of her purse and she seemed kind of offended that I would rifle around it...but then there are times I'll ask her for gum or her keys and she will say "they are somewhere in my purse.." and doesn't bat an eye. 

I think this is why it's such a mind f-k... I want to believe there is someone else but have found nothing...


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

PI is expensive. One way to get her iPhone password is to wipe the screen clean so that any oil on her fingers will show up as marks. You need guess the order of the 4 numbers but it may be an old telephone number, childhood address, birthday. You'll crack ut sooner or later. Do not ask her if she is cheating. That could drive it deeper underground. 

Read Bagdon's thread. He got his wife to fall back in love with him.

Read Machiavelli's advice.

Are you overweight?
Do you smoke?
Drink?

Can you be a better father?

Can you dress differently.

When your wife talks listen carefully.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Reverse vasectomy?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## intuitionoramiwrong (Mar 18, 2014)

LongWalk said:


> Reverse vasectomy?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm not understanding the point of this post? I didn't mention wanting more children?


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## Dday (Mar 31, 2013)

If you feel something isn't right, it isn't. You have to get into Facebook to check messages or on her cell phone. 

Try to steal her password when she enters it. Send her a text and stand behind her when she goes to open the phone. 

Send her an email of a recipe and ask to use her phone when you are cooking. Watch her reaction when she gives her phone to you carefully. See if she will leave you with it unguarded. 

If that doesn't show anything check for a burner phone. Check her car and purse. Anywhere that you would never look.


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## intuitionoramiwrong (Mar 18, 2014)

LongWalk said:


> PI is expensive. One way to get her iPhone password is to wipe the screen clean so that any oil on her fingers will show up as marks. You need guess the order of the 4 numbers but it may be an old telephone number, childhood address, birthday. You'll crack ut sooner or later. Do not ask her if she is cheating. That could drive it deeper underground.
> 
> Read Bagdon's thread. He got his wife to fall back in love with him.
> 
> ...


I'm not overweight, I don't smoke. I drink, we drink wine together, or beer...we are both drinkers. Not like, get drunk drinkers, but we have wine with dinner and drink beers on the weekends. 

I was so selfish up until she told me she was so unhappy. I realize that now. I know all my faults. I have improved in all aspects. I guess this is why it's hard for me to understand how come it hasn't changed her feelings at all...


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## Twistedheart (May 17, 2010)

She's already underground with boyfriend. You don't just wake up one day and decide that you don't love the person you married 12 years ago. Something has to influence that. You probably weren't a bad husband but when confronting with the sh*t you're dealing with right now, all kinds of things go through your head. It's exactly what wayward's want you to think.

Goodluck dude. This is going to be one long stretch of life for you. Everything you known is changing right before your eyes. It will never be the same again. Ever.


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## intuitionoramiwrong (Mar 18, 2014)

Dday said:


> If you feel something isn't right, it isn't. You have to get into Facebook to check messages or on her cell phone.
> 
> Try to steal her password when she enters it. Send her a text and stand behind her when she goes to open the phone.
> 
> ...


I guess the phone is the key for me...because I don't think she would leave the room if I was holding it. 

She has said in the past, when the kids have asked to play on her phone "it's mine, this is the only thing in the house that's mine...you're not touching it"..and I can't argue...the kids have taken over every other electronic device in the house, to include her ipad...the phone really is the only thing that's hers. 

I feel like starting this thread has done the opposite of what I thought.... I wanted to feel more in control and now I just feel pathetic.


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## Aspydad (Oct 17, 2013)

Make sure you are in control of all your finances. Make sure you know all bank account and credit card balances - pull your credit report if you have not done so already. I would also have a talk with a divorce lawyer and make sure you have all your ducks in a row.

Once this is done, I would have a sit down with the wife - tell her how you feel. Then, I would ask to see her work emails and phone history - immediately. If she balks and tries to make an excuse as to why not, I would tell her that unless she turns it all over, you are done. Start the 180 right away. Because unless you have some type of competitive relationship with her company, there is not one reason in the world for her not to let you look at her email history. I mean she threatened to walk out already right? You changed your ways right? Now - your insecure and believe something is wrong and that she is still going to leave - if she says your right - then there you have it - if she says your not right, then tell her to let you look at the emails - and phone history as well - she can get that report from her company. Because the truth here is - YOU DON"T TRUST HER - and ALL THE SIGNS ARE THERE.

If she says "you don’t trust me" - you say you’re damned right - you threatened to leave me and have not acted as my wife ever since. I NEED TO KNOW!

If you find nothing - then that means she is not cheating or she may have deleted everything as she went along or she may have a secret email account, etc. But, at the end of the day she will have a loud and clear message that you both need counciling or need to break up - one of the two as the way your going now your not going to make it.


For me, I could not live the way your living - knowing that my wife is on the verge of leaving.


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## Tobyboy (Jun 13, 2013)

intuitionoramiwrong said:


> I'm not overweight, I don't smoke. I drink, we drink wine together, or beer...we are both drinkers. Not like, get drunk drinkers, but we have wine with dinner and drink beers on the weekends.
> 
> I was so selfish up until she told me she was so unhappy. I realize that now. I know all my faults. I have improved in all aspects. I guess this is why it's hard for me to understand how come it hasn't changed her feelings at all...


She said she was unhappy.... Why is she?
What are her complaints? Has she verbalized these to you, or did you have to figure it out on your own?


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## intuitionoramiwrong (Mar 18, 2014)

Tobyboy said:


> She said she was unhappy.... Why is she?
> What are her complaints? Has she verbalized these to you, or did you have to figure it out on your own?


She told me all of her complaints and concerns. And when I changed it seemed to annoy her more. 

I just read about walk away wife syndrome...spot on.


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## intuitionoramiwrong (Mar 18, 2014)

Aspydad said:


> Make sure you are in control of all your finances. Make sure you know all bank account and credit card balances - pull your credit report if you have not done so already. I would also have a talk with a divorce lawyer and make sure you have all your ducks in a row.
> 
> Once this is done, I would have a sit down with the wife - tell her how you feel. Then, I would ask to see her work emails and phone history - immediately. If she balks and tries to make an excuse as to why not, I would tell her that unless she turns it all over, you are done. Start the 180 right away. Because unless you have some type of competitive relationship with her company, there is not one reason in the world for her not to let you look at her email history. I mean she threatened to walk out already right? You changed your ways right? Now - your insecure and believe something is wrong and that she is still going to leave - if she says your right - then there you have it - if she says your not right, then tell her to let you look at the emails - and phone history as well - she can get that report from her company. Because the truth here is - YOU DON"T TRUST HER - and ALL THE SIGNS ARE THERE.
> 
> ...


If I say "turn it over or we are done" she would probably say, "okay, we are done"....

The reason I haven't confronted her more strongly about how bad the marriage is, is because *I* am the one afraid of it ending..she seems like she would be okay.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

you need to be willing to end the M. It is over if you can't threaten and follow through on D anyway.


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## Thound (Jan 20, 2013)

Twistedheart said:


> She's already underground with boyfriend. You don't just wake up one day and decide that you don't love the person you married 12 years ago. Something has to influence that. You probably weren't a bad husband but when confronting with the sh*t you're dealing with right now, all kinds of things go through your head. It's exactly what wayward's want you to think.
> 
> Goodluck dude. This is going to be one long stretch of life for you. Everything you known is changing right before your eyes. It will never be the same again. Ever.


My wife did. One day she said she didnt know if she had the right kind of love for me anymore. That was 12 years ago. No affair. Believe me I checked.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## southern wife (Jul 22, 2011)

intuitionoramiwrong said:


> I'm not overweight, I don't smoke. I drink, we drink wine together, or beer...we are both drinkers. Not like, get drunk drinkers, but we have wine with dinner and drink beers on the weekends.
> 
> I was so selfish up until she told me she was so unhappy. I realize that now. I know all my faults. I have improved in all aspects. I guess this is why *it's hard for me to understand how come it hasn't changed her feelings at all...*



All I can say to this is when a woman is done, she's done. You can't convince her otherwise. Sure she'll continue to live with you, be cordial, drink wine and beers with you, etc., but forget about having sex with her. She's taken it off the table and locked it away in the attic.

There are 2 ways to go from here: accept it and continue to be married to her and keep the family together.......

Or, get out of the marriage and start a new life for yourself and your kids.


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## TheFlood117 (Mar 24, 2013)

intuitionoramiwrong said:


> If I say "turn it over or we are done" she would probably say, "okay, we are done"....
> 
> The reason I haven't confronted her more strongly about how bad the marriage is, is because *I* am the one afraid of it ending..she seems like she would be okay.


Yeah, you're probably NOT that bad of a husband. YOUR probably not that selfish. You're probably not that poor of listener, or too fat, or to skinny or not "hot" enough. Nah, they cheat cause they want to. Period. And if you really think she would pick a cell phone over you, then.... 

It's time to hit the ole' dusty road cowboy. 

File for Divorce. Be the first one to file.


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## Rugs (Apr 12, 2013)

PBear said:


> Look up "walk away wife". While it wouldn't surprise me if your wife was having an affair, you've eliminated a number of likely avenues of investigation. That would leave the next most obvious... She put in her time trying to hold things together, but now she's checked out and done
> 
> You might be able to turn her around by continuing to demonstrate that you've changed. Not just for her, but for your sake. If you can get her into marriage counselling, you might get some support as well. But the biggest thing I can give you is to continue to demonstrate that you understand where you've failed in the last, and you're doing better at not repeating those mistakes. Without ever coming out and explicitly saying that... Demonstrate through your actions, not your words.
> 
> ...


:iagree:


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## Lovemytruck (Jul 3, 2012)

intuitionoramiwrong said:


> If I say "turn it over or we are done" she would probably say, "okay, we are done"....
> 
> The reason I haven't confronted her more strongly about how bad the marriage is, is because *I* am the one afraid of it ending..she seems like she would be okay.


You indicate you have none of the typical problems, have changed for the better, and are doing things to be a good husband/father.

Maybe she is bored. Boredom can kill interest as fast as anything.

It sounds like she is not currently cheating, but she might be on the path. At least she is not sexually interested in you, and might want it elsewhere.

What are you doing to keep her life exciting and fun? Sometimes we men are not so good at keeping our wives entertained. Maybe some mystery and new adventure with you would help. Maybe she is tired of the same old you day after day.

Not trying to be rude. Just food for your thoughts.


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## Rugs (Apr 12, 2013)

southern wife said:


> All I can say to this is when a woman is done, she's done. You can't convince her otherwise. Sure she'll continue to live with you, be cordial, drink wine and beers with you, etc., but forget about having sex with her. She's taken it off the table and locked it away in the attic.
> 
> There are 2 ways to go from here: accept it and continue to be married to her and keep the family together.......
> 
> Or, get out of the marriage and start a new life for yourself and your kids.


:iagree:


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## Thound (Jan 20, 2013)

Did she turn 40 or is about to?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tobyboy (Jun 13, 2013)

intuitionoramiwrong said:


> She told me all of her complaints and concerns. And when I changed it seemed to annoy her more.
> 
> I just read about walk away wife syndrome...spot on.


Are all her complaints and concerns legit?

Do you work? Who makes more money?

If she's so unhappy why hasn't she left? 

This is what I believe....she had an EA/PA.....it ended by the OM and now she is stuck with you!!! You are second choice and she is keeping you in limbo while she waits for something better to come along. All the changes you do have no effect on her because your just temporary.

I hope I'm wrong and that you do have a WAW, but from what you've written, you have a W with GIGS(grass is greener syndrome). 

Did you ever hear her crying alone around the time she told you she was unhappy?


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## TheFlood117 (Mar 24, 2013)

The no sex thing would be Divorce material right there, not including the shady behavior and benevolence she's exhibiting. Don't want to do me honey? Then I don't want to do this marriage. Just my perspective tho.


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## CASE_Sensitive (Jul 22, 2013)

Time for the 180


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

intuitionoramiwrong said:


> She told me all of her complaints and concerns. And when I changed it seemed to annoy her more.


How long were you together before you started making these changes? And how long ago did you start changing? How consistent are you with your new behaviors and how often do you slip up and relapse to the old you?

It's possible she just doesn't trust that the changes will be permanent and thinks you'll just go back to being the old you as soon as things settle down a bit. It's also possible that when she saw you start making changes, it was really brought home to her that you could have been different all along - but you weren't. Whatever you were doing, that you describe as selfish, really was a choice you were making, you could have chosen differently - but you didn't. She may feel that she wasn't important enough to you to bother treating her well until she was out the door. There's a lot of room there for resentment.

By the way, there really are women out there who will leave their husband without another man waiting in the wings.


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## Twistedheart (May 17, 2010)

Well whatever her problem is, you don't deserve the kind of treatment she is displaying. She can do that sh*t down the road. lol

Something is a mis and it's time to man up no matter what the problem is. Prepare to be done.


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## TheFlood117 (Mar 24, 2013)

File for Divorce OP, you can always take it back. 

If she's truly still in love with you and values you as a man then she'll shape up. 

If not... You got your answer. And C'est la vie.


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

I don't know, I can relate to the OP's wife regarding the two items below and I'm not having an affair. 

1. I've given the "I'm unhappy" speech to my husband. He was blindsided too because his needs were being met, (mine weren't), and he thought everything was fine.

2. Also, I've said this almost verbatim:

"it's mine, this is the only thing in the house that's mine...you're not touching it"

because after years of letting kids take over your stuff and they don't always treat it respectfully, you really want some stuff that's only yours. That's why my kids are no longer allowed to play on my Mac, Kindle or phone.


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## intuitionoramiwrong (Mar 18, 2014)

Thound said:


> Did she turn 40 or is about to?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Mid-thirties.


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## intuitionoramiwrong (Mar 18, 2014)

Tobyboy said:


> Are all her complaints and concerns legit?
> 
> Do you work? Who makes more money?
> 
> ...


Her complaints originally were legit.

We both work, I make a little bit more than she does.

I think she feels bad for me....and I do nothing to change that because I'm scared she will leave. I don't want to break up our family.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

intuitionoramiwrong said:


> Mid-thirties.


Maximum sex drive time.


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## BostonBruins32 (Nov 2, 2013)

Southern wife is spot on. You have to see if she is checked out or not.

I scanned through thread, but the key indicators of a checked out wife for me would be 

-refusal for MC
-affection gone (outside bedroom)
-no longer caring enough to fight about things
-refusal to do things together, without children

Those are just a few. I thought my wife was checked out, but like you I took action and improved myself cold turkey. She requested MC, and we went. I got busy. I stopped talking. I stopped complaining. I started doing. She's turned around quite a bit; affection and sex are back, her insistence on doing things as a couple, etc etc (still only 5-6 months into process but..). 

One of the best things you can do is focus on yourself and kids. I also venture to guess you are talking too much at home. Are you seeking her approval? following her around? If you are, stop it. 

Be busy. Be indifferent to her rejections or coldness. This is 180/MMSL stuff, but it is necessary if you want to save your sanity and see if she still has a pulse for the marriage. Worst case scenario, you are better and she leaves. Best case scenario, you are better and she stays. Common thread, you are a better man.


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## BostonBruins32 (Nov 2, 2013)

intuitionoramiwrong said:


> Her complaints originally were legit.
> 
> We both work, I make a little bit more than she does.
> 
> *I think she feels bad for me....and I do nothing to change that because I'm scared she will leave. *I don't want to break up our family.


You become ridiculously unattractive when she senses this. You can be scared, but you really need to internalize this. She will not respect you if she "feels bad for" you. If she does not respect you, she will not want to drop her laundry for you or even have the ablility to love you as a married person would love another married person.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

Okay, Intuit. While it's true that when a woman is done, she's done, there are degrees of "done." There is rare, medium, medium well, and so on. And if she's in an affair, most likely she is, she can go from done back to medium well, sometimes.

Taken with all the other red flags, the time she spends on the phone and her phone guarding is the big affair indicator. If that's the case, she's going out in the middle of the day or hooking up in the building. Anything's possible, but it's almost a sure thing.

I take it you make more money than a cop salary, right?

And this may sound odd to you, but do women hit on you much?

Does your wife ever see women giving you the eye?

What do you do that's particularly associated with high female attraction or stereotypically associated with womanizing?


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## Tobyboy (Jun 13, 2013)

intuitionoramiwrong said:


> Her complaints originally were legit.
> 
> We both work, I make a little bit more than she does.
> 
> I think she feels bad for me....and I do nothing to change that because I'm scared she will leave. I don't want to break up our family.


If you were so selfish, I'm surprised you noticed she was detaching. Which in turn means, she was fully detach by the time you did noticed. This is when I believe the A was at its peak!

How long between you noticing detachment and when she came to you and say she was unhappy? 6 months? From what I've read, 6 months is the "typical" affair length. This is when I think the A ended. 

Most WAW blindside their husbands when they drop the bomb(not happy speech). You saw it coming!!! You noticed the detachment!!! Which is red flag number 1 when there's a third party involved!!!

Question. Is an affair a deal breaker for you?


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## thebadguy (Dec 7, 2012)

My hunch is that we aren't getting all of the story from the original poster (as far as his part in the demise of the marriage) but even if we are getting the whole story...many divorces are filed for behavior exactly like what you have described of yourself. Consider this with as open a mind as you can. Should she be considering a divorce? I can tell you that you should not be using fear obligation and guilt to keep her there.

For the phone...does she sync it to iTunes at home? If so, a backup has been created. That backup has all the text messages that are on the phone. Free software can recover non-deleted text messages. Decipher Textmessage and other options can recover some of the deleted messages as well. 

Do you have the iTunes login/password and/or her appleID? With the iTuens id, you can see if she has installed any apps that will let her send messages other than through the native messaging app (you can probably recover the history of these from the backup too). The appleID...if she has configured iMessage (which the backup would tell you) you can use the appleID to get a live stream of her messages on another IOS device.


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## intuitionoramiwrong (Mar 18, 2014)

Machiavelli said:


> Okay, Intuit. While it's true that when a woman is done, she's done, there are degrees of "done." There is rare, medium, medium well, and so on. And if she's in an affair, most likely she is, she can go from done back to medium well, sometimes.
> 
> Taken with all the other red flags, the time she spends on the phone and her phone guarding is the big affair indicator. If that's the case, she's going out in the middle of the day or hooking up in the building. Anything's possible, but it's almost a sure thing.
> 
> ...


I don't make a ton of money, but enough. We are comfortable, but we don't have a lot of "toys" or money to go on vacation often. But the bills are paid and we have enough. 

I work as a contractor for an IT company...it's also very male dominated. To be honest, I'm not really around a lot of women on a day to day basis. I'm a good looking guy, but I don't have the opportunities that my wife does for flirting.


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## intuitionoramiwrong (Mar 18, 2014)

Tobyboy said:


> If you were so selfish, I'm surprised you noticed she was detaching. Which in turn means, she was fully detach by the time you did noticed. This is when I believe the A was at its peak!
> 
> How long between you noticing detachment and when she came to you and say she was unhappy? 6 months? From what I've read, 6 months is the "typical" affair length. This is when I think the A ended.
> 
> ...


I was completely blindsided when she told me she wasn't happy. I knew things weren't great, but had no idea that she was willing or thinking about leaving...


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

I was with a very selfish man. Told him time and again how unhappy I was. His change only came in words and not actions. I was 34 and remember saying to a friend I had no interest in sex and would be quite happy never having sex again. There was no man waiting in the wings when we finally split up, and there was no cheating involved.

Possibly she is only with you now because of the kids. Possibly she resents you for the years of selfishness. You compound that with your cruel and selfish words of 'if you leave you get nothing, take nothing' and whatever other selfish things you say. Does she not deserve an equal share of what you have built together? Does she deserve nothing just because she doesn't love you anymore? Does she deserve nothing just because you want to continue being looked after by her, or, currently, just don't want her to leave? You sound like you may be like my ex. If she became you're ex would the need to punish her for hurting you come above what's right, including the welfare and benefit of your children. 

Also, the more you cling on to someone, the more they want to escape. 

You need to improve your relationship. The only way to do that is to talk. And talk again. And again. Iron out the problems and resentment. Fix what is broken instead of being quiet, sticking tape on it and hoping for the best. This is just a temporary plaster. Face what you fear. Be a man.

I would also rule out the phone issue. But choose your moment and your words carefully. 

Start being proactive in fixing the relationship. You might be pleasantly surprised.


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## Tobyboy (Jun 13, 2013)

intuitionoramiwrong said:


> I was completely blindsided when she told me she wasn't happy. I knew things weren't great, but had no idea that she was willing or thinking about leaving...


I too noticed my W detaching. I had know I idea why. I'd ask and she would always say work, stress, kids......never complained about me! So I started monoriting the landline(we had no cell phones at that time). It took six months of daily recordings before I busted her calling her EA. I almost gave up monoriting because nothing incrementing in the VAR for months!! My FWW was great at keeping her EA at work only. Her downfall was her detachment.


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## BostonBruins32 (Nov 2, 2013)

Tobyboy said:


> I too noticed my W detaching. I had know I idea why. I'd ask and she would always say work, stress, kids......never complained about me! So I started monoriting the landline(we had no cell phones at that time). It took six months of daily recordings before I busted her calling her EA. I almost gave up monoriting because nothing incrementing in the VAR for months!! My FWW was great at keeping her EA at work only. Her downfall was her detachment.[/QUOTE
> 
> Are cheating wives able to remain attached? Or do they inevitably detach? I thought my wife could have been having an affair but her phone records did and continue to look ok. She also never really detached. I just had a gut feeling something may have been brewing. Nothing to really hold on to, but I always wondered just how well a woman could compartmentalize an affair from her marriage.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

intuitionoramiwrong said:


> I don't make a ton of money, but enough. We are comfortable, but we don't have a lot of "toys" or money to go on vacation often. But the bills are paid and we have enough.
> 
> I work as a contractor for an IT company...it's also very male dominated. To be honest, I'm not really around a lot of women on a day to day basis. I'm a good looking guy, but I don't have the opportunities that my wife does for flirting.


This isn't the best situation. Your wife's libido started ramping up at 30 give or take a year or two, it's nature's way of making sure she squeezes out some more kids before the clock strikes 12. Her limbic reproductive system is in the driver's seat, not the cortex. She's surrounded with guys who are ****y and have learned to project physical and psychological dominance. Half of them are on anabolic steroids. If they aren't federal fuzz, they probably wear uniforms. 

She lost interest in sex with you, because she's been comparing you to them as sexual partners and you're not balancing out well. They're flirting with her and she's feeling the tingles. So, after a long period of degrading you (subconsciously, at first) in her mind, she finally did something physical. That occurred right before she started the distancing. There are certain bonding chemicals that are released in sex (oxytocin and vasopressin) that cause a woman to focus on the new guy and detach from the old guy (that would be you). Her complaints about you after that encounter was just her rationalization hamster justifying things. Which is why she was irritated when you changed your behavior. She was also irritated that you were not able to detect her misbehavior. If you're her soulmate, you're supposed to be so in tune with her that you sense a disturbance in the force when she commits adultery. She resents you for this.

So, if she is having an affair, is it a sure fire divorce or do you want to try to "win" her back? It's not impossible, but it's the next closest thing. And it's not really a "win" for you, but it might be for your kids.

If you want to try that, you need to change some things that you might not want to change.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

One other thing, vasectomies are tied up in a lot of these age 30 cheating wife scenarios. Some speculate its physical (the chemical component of semen isn't right) and/or it's all psychological: she knows you can't do what her limbic brain wants done (even if the prefrontal cortex disagrees, it doesn't matter).


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## xakulax (Feb 9, 2014)

Machiavelli said:


> This isn't the best situation. Your wife's libido started ramping up at 30 give or take a year or two, it's nature's way of making sure she squeezes out some more kids before the clock strikes 12. Her limbic reproductive system is in the driver's seat, not the cortex. She's surrounded with guys who are ****y and have learned to project physical and psychological dominance. Half of them are on anabolic steroids. If they aren't federal fuzz, they probably wear uniforms.
> 
> She lost interest in sex with you, because she's been comparing you to them as sexual partners and you're not balancing out well. They're flirting with her and she's feeling the tingles. So, after a long period of degrading you (subconsciously, at first) in her mind, she finally did something physical. That occurred right before she started the distancing. There are certain bonding chemicals that are released in sex (oxytocin and vasopressin) that cause a woman to focus on the new guy and detach from the old guy (that would be you). Her complaints about you after that encounter was just her rationalization hamster justifying things. Which is why she was irritated when you changed your behavior. She was also irritated that you were not able to detect her misbehavior. If you're her soulmate, you're supposed to be so in tune with her that you sense a disturbance in the force when she commits adultery. She resents you for this.
> 
> ...


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


Machiavelli are you a Jedi because you always speak the truth


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Mach,
Do you recommend reverse vasectomies?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tobyboy (Jun 13, 2013)

BostonBruins32 said:


> Tobyboy said:
> 
> 
> > I too noticed my W detaching. I had know I idea why. I'd ask and she would always say work, stress, kids......never complained about me! So I started monoriting the landline(we had no cell phones at that time). It took six months of daily recordings before I busted her calling her EA. I almost gave up monoriting because nothing incrementing in the VAR for months!! My FWW was great at keeping her EA at work only. Her downfall was her detachment.[/QUOTE
> ...


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

I didn't see where she was on the phone a lot.

I can't believe no one has recommended MARRIED MAN SEX LIFE PRIMER linked to below.

I don't think she is cheating. You describe yourself as selfish. Could you elaborate? When guys feel like they are at fault they start imagining things.

What you have done though, for sure, has made you unattractive to your wife compared to the men she works with and around. She may be moral enough to not have an affair but that doesn't mean she can love a man that's acting like a spoiled brat a weenie, a wimp whatever.

Jumping up and start helping around the house always backfires if she sees you as unmanly anyway. All you have done is to start acting like a house maid.

You need to start working out, get the testosterone up and have it checked and get. Look at yourself, as a woman she no longer sees you as mate material.

Download the MMSLP book now and stat reading it. You will see what everybody admits after they read it. At least go to amazon and read their reviews. Hundreds of guys here have said how great it is.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Here's bagdon's thread, take a look. http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/85369-she-said-w-man-i-dont-love.html


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

LongWalk said:


> Mach,
> Do you recommend reverse vasectomies?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Bonding hormones/chemicals are passed both ways during sex. When a man gets cut, what stops being passed from him?


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## happi_g_more2 (Jan 27, 2014)

skimmed this and only your posts. Seems like you are too focused on if she is having an affair and not focused enough on whats wrong with your marriage. I know you said you changed some things, but those things havent spurred a response. Have you discussed counseling? Sounds like something you guys need. But you need to be prepared for what comes out of it...another man, or her just not being into you any more


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## PhillyGuy13 (Nov 29, 2013)

intuitionoramiwrong said:


> She has facebook, I don't have the password, and like I said, she doesn't use the computer at home. She has a desk job, so she gets her fill of computer time at work. And our three children keep her busy in the evenings after work and the weekends, she doesn't have the opportunity to really browse the internet at home. She does have an ipad, but she doesn't use it very often and she is logged out of facebook on it.


I'm only two pages into this thread, still catching up. This is the first "red flag" I've spotted. The rest I was thinking eh, she's unhappy but probably not cheating.

But she logs out of Facebook on her iPad? On my phone, iPad, wife's phone and iPad, we are almost always logged in. Occasionally I will deactivate my Facebook to avoid family, but we at always logged in. Facebook Messenger is as good as text messages without the worry of the convo being traced. Actually logging off Facebook on her iPad tells me she is hiding something. Maybe not an affair, but maybe she is complaining about you on there. 

Try to get into her Facebook.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PhillyGuy13 (Nov 29, 2013)

intuitionoramiwrong said:


> It seems like it would be very expensive to get a PI to follow her 5 hours away...??


You would want to research PIs from cousin's town. They can watch her out there. I had a PI watch my wife when she was away for work. Find them online easily. 

If it hasn't been mentioned, I will caution you about using a local PI. Many PIs are retired/former cops. If your wife works with police, make sure you hire someone not connected to anyone there. Chances are a local PI will know a lot of people there and may or may not be trusted.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Remains said:


> I was with a very selfish man. Told him time and again how unhappy I was. His change only came in words and not actions. I was 34 and remember saying to a friend I had no interest in sex and would be quite happy never having sex again. There was no man waiting in the wings when we finally split up, and there was no cheating involved.
> 
> Possibly she is only with you now because of the kids. Possibly she resents you for the years of selfishness. You compound that with your cruel and selfish words of 'if you leave you get nothing, take nothing' and whatever other selfish things you say. Does she not deserve an equal share of what you have built together? Does she deserve nothing just because she doesn't love you anymore? Does she deserve nothing just because you want to continue being looked after by her, or, currently, just don't want her to leave? You sound like you may be like my ex. If she became you're ex would the need to punish her for hurting you come above what's right, including the welfare and benefit of your children.
> 
> ...


:iagree:

Is your wife having an affair? Maybe. And I repeat... maybe.

But there *was* one love affair that really soured your marriage. Which love affair was this?

*Your love affair with yourself.*

Your wife is perhaps cold and distant because she is waiting for the other shoe to drop. For you to go back to your bad old ways.

If so, she'll need time. No. Actually, *you* need that time. To prove yourself to be the man she thought your were.

Can you do that?:scratchhead:


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## PhillyGuy13 (Nov 29, 2013)

thebadguy said:


> Do you have the iTunes login/password and/or her appleID? With the iTuens id, you can see if she has installed any apps that will let her send messages other than through the native messaging app (you can probably recover the history of these from the backup too). The appleID...if she has configured iMessage (which the backup would tell you) you can use the appleID to get a live stream of her messages on another IOS device.


Be careful here. She will get an email letting her know a device has been added to her imessaging. Only do this if you can intercept that email in her account.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

LongWalk said:


> Mach,
> Do you recommend reverse vasectomies?


It all depends. If I was in this fix and wanted to reconcile, I would definitely leave some vasectomy reversal brochures lying around to be found. While making all the usual attraction upgrades.


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## PhillyGuy13 (Nov 29, 2013)

Surely the vasectomy is something they discussed and agreed upon as a couple before the procedure was done. right??? 

I'm not a doctor, nor do I play one on TV, but isn't reversing a V more complicated than the V itself?

My PC doc brings up the Vasectomy annually I'm now 41. But once I remind him my wife is early 30s, he tells me don't even think about it until wife is older- it becomes a source of friction especially if the wife has another itch.

Anyway, do we really think a reverse vasectomy is going to save his marriage? If so then there are many more issues in play than we are aware.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

So your wife is mid thirties then how old are you?

And she came to you about being unhappy and you begged her to stay. You guilted her.

What were her issues with you or your behavior?

I do not think she is cheating.

I think she has totally detached and is disgusted with you. That is just my opinion. 

Have you ever sat her down and had an open, honest conversation with her? No crying, no begging.

I know you fear it. She can feel it to.

So why don't you try something different and confront her. And keep everything calm, cool and honest.

HM


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

Chaparral said:


> Bonding hormones/chemicals are passed both ways during sex. When a man gets cut, what stops being passed from him?


In theory, it should just be the actual sperm but a study found that seminal T was cut by almost half in the vasectomy group. Viscosity and pH range were reduced. Also, after a vasectomy, the semen has higher levels of seminal fructose and citric acid (which are usually fuel for the spermatozoa. It's possible that there is a biological sensitivity to the increased presence of these chemicals that indicates to the woman's limbic reproductive system that the man is shooting blanks. Also, semen is a complicated cøcktail, so who knows what other ways the absence of some T and all the sperm affects the final product.

From Scientific American:



Scientific American said:


> In fact, semen has a very complicated chemical profile, containing over 50 different compounds (including hormones, neurotransmitters, endorphins and immunosuppressants) each with a special function and occurring in different concentrations within the seminal plasma.
> Perhaps the most striking of these compounds is the bundle of mood-enhancing chemicals in semen. There is good in this goo. Such anxiolytic chemicals include, but are by no means limited to, cortisol (known to increase affection), estrone (which elevates mood), prolactin (a natural antidepressant), oxytocin (also elevates mood), thyrotropin-releasing hormone (another antidepressant), melatonin (a sleep-inducing agent) and even serotonin (perhaps the most well-known antidepressant neurotransmitter)….
> The most significant findings from this 2002 study… were these: even after adjusting for frequency of sexual intercourse, women who engaged in sex and “never” used condoms showed significantly fewer depressive symptoms than did those who “usually” or “always” used condoms.
> 
> ...


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Anyway, do we really think a reverse vasectomy is going to save his marriage? If so then there are many more issues in play than we are aware.


He may or may not want to reverse, but why would a guy with a cheating wife be looking at brochures about vasectomy reversal?


Exactly. It sends a message that the BH is interested in having more kids with his new women. The WW will get a jolt.


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## PhillyGuy13 (Nov 29, 2013)

Machiavelli said:


> He may or may not want to reverse, but why would a guy with a cheating wife be looking at brochures about vasectomy reversal?
> 
> 
> Exactly. It sends a message that the BH is interested in having more kids with his new women. The WW will get a jolt.


I see where you are going... makes sense. Always enjoy your perspective.


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## Baffled01 (Mar 14, 2012)

She more than likely has her eye on someone, or was in an affair and discontinued it.


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## Baffled01 (Mar 14, 2012)

intuitionoramiwrong said:


> She does go out drinking with the toxic friends on occasion. Maybe once every 2 months. Otherwise she goes to their houses, and she almost always brings the kids (we all have children the same ages). They have girls nights without kids, but that is usually a week night and they stay in.
> 
> She doesn't spend the night with them.
> 
> ...


Get a new credit card without her knowing, then go with paperless billing (all online) so she won't see.


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

I don't know if I missed this, but can you see her FB, are you friends with her?

Sometimes a person's page will give you a lead to someone.


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## nuclearnightmare (May 15, 2013)

OP

my opinion is, if you want to avoid further feelings of inadequacy as you say you experience, then you should give up on her and start to detach from her. These are things that are totally in your control, and totally doable. It sounds to me, just taking you at your word, that you have tried to address your failings with some success. If she wont have sex with you, show affection or otherwise treat you like a husband, and she won't try to make a better marriage with you, then be done with her! Sounds like she had her chance.......

So sit down with her and tell her that if she wants to leave you'll help her pack. Then tell her how p.o.**ed you are at having wasted so much of your life with her. Doesn't matter whether she has cheated, you have plenty of reason to throw in the towel and I think you should get to it. THIS is how you will extinguish those feelings of being pathetic, which at this point will buoy you up a lot more than she can.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Bagdon's thread is the best for a change yourself come back. Reading also shows that it is a tricky process. Kolors, another good thread, shows how a husband will give up eventually.

Life is uncertain. But it is good to be active, regardless of the decision made in the end.

I suspected Mach's answer about the vasectomy reversal would be to do it or at least hint that it was under consideration. Are there any stats that show divorce rates are higher for men who have undergone the procedure?


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## Krator (Dec 7, 2012)

Machiavelli said:


> He may or may not want to reverse, but why would a guy with a cheating wife be looking at brochures about vasectomy reversal?
> 
> 
> Exactly. It sends a message that the BH is interested in having more kids with his new women. The WW will get a jolt.


Egads. That's downright Machiavellian. 

:rofl:


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

LongWalk said:


> Are there any stats that show divorce rates are higher for men who have undergone the procedure?


None whatsoever. There isn't much in the way of recent investigation and the ones that are around from 35 years ago claim all the marriages got better. 

So, all the stories you hear about women pushing for vasectomies right prior to embarking on extramarital sexual adventures or, even better, immediate divorce, remarriage, and pregnancy may be the result of malice aforethought rather than some chemo-sexual limbic response. Nobody knows, but why take chances?


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## intuitionoramiwrong (Mar 18, 2014)

I've been busy at work and don't use the computer much at home. 

Nothing new to report really. 

The vasectomy thing isn't a game I really want to play right now. I'm not going to get a pamphlet to make her start wondering. It would be so out of character for me she'd see right through that. 

I am friends with her on FB, no friends that send up a red flag to me. Friends with a few co-workers (male and female) but no comments or even "likes" from them typically. I feel like I've gotten so paranoid that if I suspected a particular person I don't know what I'd even do or how I'd prove it. 

I do have a question. I've been reading other threads and when a man catches his wife cheating there are a few posters who are full force with the "expose to everyone" mentality. I get that the purpose is to clear the fog, but if I did find out she was cheating, I'm not sure how humiliating myself and her is helpful, mostly because I'm not sure I'd want my children to know. 

This whole thing is a mess and I almost wish I hadn't posted. It's real now and I feel like I need to follow through, which is difficult not even knowing if she's cheating..


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Why is exposing her affair humiliating to you?

That is one of your problems right there.

You have no reason to be ashamed that your wife is a cheater and liar......

Think about it.


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

You can keep exposure to the other BS and if applicable work HR. HR has governing privacy rules not to disseminate such info publicly. (not that it wouldn't get out some how) 

Then select family and friends that could aid in ending the A and latter healing the M.

IMO, It should be used, not abused.


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

intuitionoramiwrong said:


> The vasectomy thing isn't a game I really want to play right now. I'm not going to get a pamphlet to make her start wondering. It would be so out of character for me she'd see right through that.


If you think she'd see right through it don't do it. These suggestions are just that, suggestions. You have to decide which ones fit your personality and circumstances. Some are more urgent to do than others so you might get some pushback on some but ultimately the decision is yours. Just be aware that if you reject advice that the mass experience here says you should not reject we're going to jump all over you about it. This suggestion is not one of those, it's one that I'd be interested in the results but not urgent. 



intuitionoramiwrong said:


> I do have a question. I've been reading other threads and when a man catches his wife cheating there are a few posters who are full force with the "expose to everyone" mentality. I get that the purpose is to clear the fog, but if I did find out she was cheating, I'm not sure how humiliating myself and her is helpful, mostly because I'm not sure I'd want my children to know.


It's not humiliating to you or the children, only to her. No quality person would think less of you for your wife cheating. It is the number one best way to slam an affair to a halt, so this is one of the suggestions you will get pushback on. If your goal is to divorce quickly and easily and get the best deal you can from her then don't expose, but if your goal is to save your marriage then exposure is the number one tool for the job.



intuitionoramiwrong said:


> This whole thing is a mess and I almost wish I hadn't posted. It's real now and I feel like I need to follow through, which is difficult not even knowing if she's cheating..


This is where the rubber meets the road. This is the kind of thing that determines what kind of man you are, a milquetoast that will pretend his wife is faithful to avoid rocking the boat or a man with self respect. A man who can stand up straight and look other men in the eye as an equal or a weenie that will look at other men and wonder how many of them have been or will be with his wife.

Are you this guy?










Or this guy?


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## mahike (Aug 16, 2011)

intuitionoramiwrong said:


> I've been busy at work and don't use the computer much at home.
> 
> Nothing new to report really.
> 
> ...


I get exposing may feel humiliating to a man but it does three things that are critical to you

1. Snaps her out of the land of unicorns and rainbows
2. The AP is to busy with CYA that they will not even think about contacting your wife
3. Your family and hers get the straight story and not the one that will make her look like the victim and you the bad guy

It is also a very Alpha Male approach. She will be angry at first but remind her this would have never happened if she had not messed around


I did not expose at first my wife did not snap out of the fog after Dday. She took it deeper underground and he kept contacting her and her him. After the exposure, several days from hell. The A was really dead and buried.


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## nuclearnightmare (May 15, 2013)

intuitionoramiwrong said:


> I've been busy at work and don't use the computer much at home.
> 
> Nothing new to report really.
> 
> ...


again though, aside from whether or not she is cheating on you -- some of us are pointing out, essentially, that you are in a relationship where you are being emotionally abused. that is serious stuff, every bit as damaging as physical abuse. simply her witholding sex from you for so long is emotional abuse IMO. So you have feelings of being "pathetic" - your words - because you remain in that environment and it has damaged you. I think most people recognize that abuse is reason to leave a marriage, even IF children are involved.

most people don't want to hear the truth unless it equates to 'good news' for them. but given your description of your situation, if you want to become emotionally/psychologically healthy again, you've got to end it with her.


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## intuitionoramiwrong (Mar 18, 2014)

I know this thread makes me seem like a complete tool..but I am typically the alpha male. I take no crap from people, I speak my mind always, and am not afraid of confrontation. I guess this situation just turns me into a completely different person. 

I just want to know one way or the other. 

I've been looking into PI's..but until I find a little more evidence on my own, I cannot justify the cost.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

intuitionoramiwrong said:


> if I did find out she was cheating, I'm not sure how humiliating myself and her is helpful, mostly because I'm not sure I'd want my children to know.


First things first. If you do find out she's cheating, I'm certain we will convince you that exposure is the best thing to do.

You are in a place I was several years ago with my wife. I tried to be a better husband, loose weight, be kinder - yada, yada, yada. Except, unlike you, I was too ignorant to suspect her cheating; which she was. You aren't that ignorant and that's a good thing. Don't be sorry you posted.

Now you need to patient. You should wait for one of three things to happen. But while you're waiting, you continue to monitor her discretely as long as you have these red flags. Educate yourself on the techniques. Look for your opportunities. If she's cheating, they will come.

Those one of three things to wait for:

1 - You don't catch her cheating, you continue being a better husband, but she continues to make your life miserable - to the point that you yourself are ready to divorce.

2 - You don't catch her cheating, you continue being a better husband, and she finally improves her attitude.

3 - You catch her cheating. Then you make a decision to R or D. If you want to consider R at all, you base that decision on her remorse. If's she's caught and her mindset doesn't change; if she doesn't become that wife you want her to be; she's made the decision for you. Proceed straight to D.

All I can tell you is that if I could go back 4 years in time, to my very similar situation - that's exactly what I would do.

Good luck to you.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Did you read Bagdon's thread?

Work on yourself. Become a better man, a better husband. Read MMSL or those other guides to what makes female liminal desire go round. Become happier so that your wife will be attracted towards you.

At some point you may have to bite the bullet and divorce because it will be the healthy thing to do.

Also, read Jerry123's thread.


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## 2asdf2 (Jun 5, 2012)

intuitionoramiwrong said:


> I've been busy at work and don't use the computer much at home.
> 
> Nothing new to report really.
> 
> ...


Being humiliated by her affair goes along with the thinking that you caused it.

Since you did not, the humiliation is totally hers.

Think it through!


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

I am confused, why is there talk about an affair? I read OP's posts, but there seems to be nothing except the locked phone?


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## 2asdf2 (Jun 5, 2012)

See_Listen_Love said:


> I am confused, why is there talk about an affair? I read OP's posts, but there seems to be nothing except the locked phone?


Subject to his confirmation, of course.

OP was posing an hypothetical question about eventual exposure.


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

In that case, I would ask OP, why do you investigate an affair? You have bigger problems with her not wanting you anymore, because of the sad state of the marriage. If there would be an EA/PA, and you would get her back from that sidestepping, then what? Would you like to continue the marriage as it is/was??


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## PhillyGuy13 (Nov 29, 2013)

Intuition, just be patient and keep your eyes open. Is she having Or was she having an affair? Maybe maybe not. Unlike a lot of threads here, none of us would be willing to bet the farm on this one. Keep your eyes open. Continue to improve as a husband. 

And come what may, never be ashamed. You are trying to protect your family and marriage. That is an honorable thing to do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Have you bought the book linked to below? I'm puzzled because of your posts. You may be an alpha but you have lost that in your relationship. At least go read some of he reviews. You are putting his off and when you do read it and follow the MAP plan you will be kicking yourself for not getting it sooner.


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## carmen ohio (Sep 24, 2012)

intuitionoramiwrong said:


> . . . This whole thing is a mess and I almost wish I hadn't posted. It's real now and I feel like I need to follow through, which is difficult not even knowing if she's cheating..


Yah, I kind of wonder why you posted, too, since you aren't willing to take any of the advice you are getting.

Look, friend, whether she's cheating or not, your marriage is heading down the drain. So you need to do something. Either hire a PI to find out what she's up to or start the 180 or sit her down and ask her what she wants.

You keep saying your afraid that if you do something, she will pull the plug. Well, do you really think you can save your marriage by doing nothing?

And stop beating yourself up over being a d*ck of a H in the past. She's being a c*nt of a W now. Your even, so give it a rest.

Take action while you still have some hope or don't complain when she walks out on you.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Really, is it weird that poster come here, talk about their problems, get plenty of advice and then just keep posting and seemingly hear nothing or don't react, like they aren't even reading what other posters write. Some are here for weeks and it doesn't sound like they have read any of the other threads.

Very odd.


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## 3putt (Dec 3, 2012)

Chaparral said:


> Really, is it weird that poster come here, talk about their problems, get plenty of advice and then just keep posting and seemingly hear nothing or don't react, like they aren't even reading what other posters write. Some are here for weeks and it doesn't sound like they have read any of the other threads.
> 
> *Very odd.*


Is it really?


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## Thound (Jan 20, 2013)

Chaparral said:


> Really, is it weird that poster come here, talk about their problems, get plenty of advice and then just keep posting and seemingly hear nothing or don't react, like they aren't even reading what other posters write. Some are here for weeks and it doesn't sound like they have read any of the other threads.
> 
> Very odd.


I've done it.


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## Thound (Jan 20, 2013)

To me, if I knew my wife was having an affair, I would know what to do after being here awhile, but if I really didn't know for sure, it would be/is difficult to know which steps to take. I wouldn't want to make a soft confront, and I wouldn't want to get caught snooping. I sure don't want to ruin any chance of saving my marriage by accusing her and she isn't having an affair.


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## carmen ohio (Sep 24, 2012)

intuitionoramiwrong,

Here's what I would do in your situation. Sit your W down and ask her, "Are you having an affair?"

If she says, "yes," file for divorce. If she says, "no," ask her, "do you want to be married to me?"

If she says, "no," file for divorce. If she says, "yes," then say tell her that you want the following:

- Complete transparency from her (e.g., her phone),

- A change in her attitude (e.g., more affection),

- Marriage counseling.

If she agrees, great. If she refuses, file for divorce.

The point is to make it clear to her that you are unwilling to remain in the dog house and that you have the b*lls to take back control of your life. If she does not respond positively, then the sooner you start to move forward to build a new life, the better.

But, assuming she's not cheating, I'm betting she will respond positively.


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## intuitionoramiwrong (Mar 18, 2014)

I'm not sure why you all think I'm doing nothing. I only started posting a few days ago...and I've been really proactive with trying to discover her infidelity before I even started posting. I'm still processing all this. I'm not going to lie down, I'm just making a plan of action that I can follow through on.


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

I would make getting the passcode to that a phone a priority. What about a hidden camera near somewhere she uses her phone. She may not be cheating but the phone thing has got my alarm bells ringing. 

You have been married a while, right? Has she always had her phone off limits?


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## intuitionoramiwrong (Mar 18, 2014)

GutPunch said:


> I would make getting the passcode to that a phone a priority. What about a hidden camera near somewhere she uses her phone. She may not be cheating but the phone thing has got my alarm bells ringing.
> 
> You have been married a while, right? Has she always had her phone off limits?


We have been married almost 9 years, together for 12. 

We used to share a phone, and then her job gave her a phone. Because of the nature of her job it is required to have a passcode, that isn't a choice. But she doesn't openly share the code, either.


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## kenmoore14217 (Apr 8, 2010)

Because of legal issues tampering with a business phone might not be the best move.


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

kenmoore14217 said:


> Because of legal issues tampering with a business phone might not be the best move.


I don't think she's a CIA operative. No business will spend the money to sue unless they occur SIGNIFICANT damages. Get the passcode. Your gut is telling you something or you wouldn't be here. Gut's are rarely wrong here on TAM.


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## Rottdad42 (Nov 26, 2012)

Being a boy in blue, is def different when it comes to the opposite sex. Many a time I had the opportunity, but never strayed. With great power, comes a greater responsibility. But after the D, I know longer had to worry. Only singles, nothing else. Had fun. But when I hear things like this, I always ask the questions "what am I not seeing, so close to it, maybe. There is something, just be a little more stealthy, something will pop. Then again maybe she isn't and the red flags are just coincidences to the script. Dig deeper. Good luck.


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## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

also, I know you said you were face book friends with your wife but you should still get her pass word for her face book because there are private setting in there that items can be hidden.

When is she scheduled to go to her cousins house next?
I would get a rent-a-car and check that out, or a P.I. but I agree with you that so far you do not have enough to justify the cost of a PI.


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## PhillyGuy13 (Nov 29, 2013)

GutPunch said:


> I don't think she's a CIA operative. No business will spend the money to sue unless they occur SIGNIFICANT damages. Get the passcode. Your gut is telling you something or you wouldn't be here. Gut's are rarely wrong here on TAM.


I work for a company that has a federal contract. My phone requires an 8-digit passcode, and locks in 5 minutes. And while my job has nothing to do with national security, my company would terminate me that day if my phone was messed with.

So, tread lightly with work phones.

That all said----keep digging, keep watching.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

PhillyGuy13 said:


> I work for a company that has a federal contract. My phone requires an 8-digit passcode, and locks in 5 minutes. And while my job has nothing to do with national security, my company would terminate me that day if my phone was messed with.
> 
> So, tread lightly with work phones.
> 
> ...


I believe messing with and reading text messages are different ballparks. He isn't installing spy software or bugs. He just wants to see the messages. ....jeez


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## PhillyGuy13 (Nov 29, 2013)

GutPunch said:


> I believe messing with and reading text messages are different ballparks. He isn't installing spy software or bugs. He just wants to see the messages. ....jeez


And that's fine. Just advocating caution.

Geez.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

GutPunch said:


> I believe messing with and reading text messages are different ballparks. He isn't installing spy software or bugs. He just wants to see the messages. ....jeez


They are in the same ballpark, it all falls under proprietary/secret information. I'm not federal and releasing of business information is cause for termination. Had a cousin fired from a job, she made the same argument as you, because it was her phone and her responsibility. Being careful is a prudent course of action, that's all he was suggesting. 

If you do get into the phone, stay calm, copy all of the information down, check call logs, copy down all contacts and don't do anything silly like contacting anyone you suspect from the business phone.


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## intuitionoramiwrong (Mar 18, 2014)

LongWalk said:


> Did you read Bagdon's thread?
> 
> Work on yourself. Become a better man, a better husband. Read MMSL or those other guides to what makes female liminal desire go round. Become happier so that your wife will be attracted towards you.
> 
> ...


I read Jerry123's thread. Did he ever catch his wife or get real proof? I read so many pages and I still can't figure out if he did or not.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

he did not..


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

intuitionoramiwrong said:


> I read Jerry123's thread. Did he ever catch his wife or get real proof? I read so many pages and I still can't figure out if he did or not.


He did not. But he did stop taking her BS....


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## just got it 55 (Mar 2, 2013)

carmen ohio said:


> Yah, I kind of wonder why you posted, too, since you aren't willing to take any of the advice you are getting.
> 
> Look, friend, whether she's cheating or not, your marriage is heading down the drain. So you need to do something. Either hire a PI to find out what she's up to or start the 180 or sit her down and ask her what she wants.
> 
> ...


:iagree: That about sums it all up OP

Be the man your father raised you to be

Stand up for yourself and your marriage

55


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## just got it 55 (Mar 2, 2013)

kenmoore14217 said:


> Because of legal issues tampering with a business phone might not be the best move.


On a company paid phone for business purpose is a company within thier rights to monitor any and all communucation?

Not sure of this but if it it is some high security type job it may be . I think you yould have to sign some kind of document that says you are aware and agree of this.

So if this is the case she would not use it for clandestine convos with an AP

Just a thought

Burner phone if she is stepping out.

55


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## jerry123 (Apr 9, 2012)

intuitionoramiwrong said:


> I read Jerry123's thread. Did he ever catch his wife or get real proof? I read so many pages and I still can't figure out if he did or not.


Yeah my first/second threads are long. 

I suspected my wife of cheating because of the way she was treating me and her interaction with a neighbor. The neighbor was a jerk who would tell sexual jokes in front of my wife to get her to laugh and gauge how far he could go. He also had the balls to ask if my wife worked out because she looked good. 

To date I really have not found anything to suggest she did. I used all the tactics. 

What I found out about myself was I was a Beta, with a nice guy syndrome. I was brought up by my mom and have 2 sisters. They divorced when I was 5 and recently found out my mom was most likely cheating and my dad found out. He was basically out of the picture my whole life and died when I was 22. 

I became a SAHD. That transformed me into the Beta guy over time. I got my crap together after reading MMSLP and NMMNG. 

Although the past few weeks have been hell with the wife and I. 
I think she's not liking the lack of control she lost of me. Plus I've been lifting/weight training like crazy. I'm looking great and feeling great. She stopped working out and resides to our bedroom most times. Barely talk. 

But I will read your thread and give any helpful advice.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## just got it 55 (Mar 2, 2013)

Sorry to hear that Jerry

Last time I read your thread seemed you and your wife were well on the right track

55


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## jerry123 (Apr 9, 2012)

just got it 55 said:


> Sorry to hear that Jerry
> 
> Last time I read your thread seemed you and your wife were well on the right track
> 
> 55


We were...but last few weeks she's been a real b!tch. For no reason. Not even time of month. Hey, I just go about my day and night in a good frame. 

Last time we had sex it was great for both of us. Has been 12 days since and with her attitude I have no desire to try. In the past I would go out of my way to make sure she is happy to get sex. 

I kind of been disengaged because of it, hey I'm happy. If she's not that her problem. 

I know I should not disengage but I'm not going to fall for "If Mama's not happy no one is" crap. 

Sorry for the hijack.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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