# WS asked me to help him end his PA



## TheSecretGarden14 (Feb 7, 2014)

Long story short. We separated, he admitted to EA and PA with best friend and neighbor, and we live apart, but have been attempting R. The OW is a complete sociopath, she gaslighted me to get to him, has crazy pants pinterest boards- one dedicated to my 10 month old that she started when we found out she was a girl and another dedicated to the wedding she is planning for her and WS, she has him in a gaslight fog that he is trying to break free of, and so much more crazy. Here is my R thread if you want more info: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/reconciliation/218730-hot-cold-reconciliation.html

Her most recent attempt to manipulate him was to tell him she thought she was pregnant. Her period wasn't due for two weeks, but she had all the symptoms. Haha. For any guys, there I no way to have pregnancy symptoms two weeks before a missed period. It's ok, WS didn't know either ad he fell for it and I stopped R.

He told me yesterday that she is not pregnant and it is confirmed. H then said that he now realizes I am completely right about her and the gaslighting and he need my help to end it.

He wants me to call her and tell her that I believe her to be unstable and immoral and, therefore, a danger to my children's wellbeing. He wants me to say that if she continues to try to be a part of his life or contact him that I will take the steps I need to as full legal custodian and cut his visitations to supervised at his parents house.

I'm a little wary of this. Now, of course I would LOVE to tell her exactly what I think of her. The part that make me uneasy is all the manipulation and gaslighting. When he has been completely under the fog, he has tried scare tactics like, "OW said she will help me take kids from you and help me raise them." He is in and out of the fog now and I don't want this to be used against me if he goes back again.

Last thing I need is for them to say I was using the kids as a weapon. WS' s mom has backed me the whole time and is agreement with me on OWs mental state. She suggested getting it in writing that he asked me to make the call. She is worried that this could also cause psychopathic push back. 

I want to do this not only to get things off my chest, but also I truly feel that WS and therefore my kids are in danger from this woman. She has gotten physically abusive with WS when he has tried to end it before. She will not stop even when he says it over. He needs to get away from her for a length of time to get out of the fog.

What would TAM do?


----------



## inarut (Feb 9, 2013)

What a pathetic excuse for a man. No way in hell would i do that. He is not only too weak to do it himself but he also has the gaul to ask his wife to do it for him. What a slap in the face! If he were truly done with her he wouldn't need anyone's help to leave. They deserve each other but do keep your children out of harms way if you feel the need do whatever you have to for them.


----------



## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

If your husband really wanted to get out, he'd leave her and talk to a lawyer about a restraining order against her. Pretty simple. It has little to do with you until he makes a serious effort on his own to get out. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BobSimmons (Mar 2, 2013)

TheSecretGarden14 said:


> Long story short. We separated, he admitted to EA and PA with best friend and neighbor, and we live apart, but have been attempting R. The OW is a complete sociopath, she gaslighted me to get to him, has crazy pants pinterest boards- one dedicated to my 10 month old that she started when we found out she was a girl and another dedicated to the wedding she is planning for her and WS, she has him in a gaslight fog that he is trying to break free of, and so much more crazy. Here is my R thread if you want more info: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/reconciliation/218730-hot-cold-reconciliation.html
> 
> Her most recent attempt to manipulate him was to tell him she thought she was pregnant. Her period wasn't due for two weeks, but she had all the symptoms. Haha. For any guys, there I no way to have pregnancy symptoms two weeks before a missed period. It's ok, WS didn't know either ad he fell for it and I stopped R.
> 
> ...


Umm TAM would tell him to do his own dirty work. So are you going to block his phone? Be outside his office watching over him in case she shows up?
Intercept his emails? When does it stop?

This is a form of rug sweeping, sad songs, enlisting the spouse to do the heavy lifting without getting his hands dirty, meanwhile he gets off scott free and if you're not careful, free to engage in the affair again because guess what, those were your words not his.

Let him make the call. Let him make the IC/MC appointment. Let him show remorse otherwise you'll be back here sooner rather than later.

Good luck.


----------



## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

You no only want him to show remorse, you also need him to show committment to reconciliation. If he's not even willing to make the effort to get free of her on his own, what does that say to his dedication to the hard work of reconciling?  And if he's not strong enough to do the work, why do you want him back?

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

If you call her it could be considered stalking or harassment. He needs to do this. I suggest doing so with a registered letter. Then maybe a restraining order against her.

You stay out of it. Carefully monitor, yes, but you do no heavy lifting.


----------



## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

> He wants me to call her and tell her that I believe her to be unstable and immoral and, therefore, a danger to my children's wellbeing. He wants me to say that if she continues to try to be a part of his life or contact him that I will take the steps I need to as full legal custodian and cut his visitations to supervised at his parents house.


He wants you to be the villain so that he can go back to her if/when things get bad with you. So now he will tell her that he will get back with you because "kids". And probably string this woman behind the scenes for much longer

What a cowardly piece of sh!t this guy is. 

The OW seems to be just another victim to his lies.


----------



## TheSecretGarden14 (Feb 7, 2014)

I agree he is very weak, right now. I don't know if any of you have ever dealt with true sociopathic gaslighting before, but it's not so cut and dry as tell her it's over, change the number, and call it a day.

True sociopathic gaslighting involves chemical changes that are equal to drug use. The sociopath literally becomes the drug. They are able to convince the target of almost anything and it is so thick that it takes 4-8 weeks to fully come out of it. Any contact with the sociopath before the fog lifts and it just like the first hit out of rehab.
My therapist says that I should treat him as drug user or someone with mental illness. We are not working on R, there is little communication at the moment, and absolutely no sex. I am treating this as a family member needing my help rather than an attempt to fix my marriage. At this point, if I had to choose between saving my marriage and saving him from her, I would choose to save him.


----------



## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

Btw... My other piece of advice is to stop playing psychologist and label people's "disorders". Leave that to the trained professionals. In any case, worry about their actions and deal with those. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

warlock07 said:


> He wants you to be the villain so that he can go back to her if/when things get bad with you. So now he will tell her that he will get back with you because "kids". And probably string this woman behind the scenes for much longer
> 
> What a cowardly piece of sh!t this guy is.
> 
> The OW seems to be just another victim to his lies.


Gotta say this seems spot on.


----------



## TheSecretGarden14 (Feb 7, 2014)

PBear said:


> Btw... My other piece of advice is to stop playing psychologist and label people's "disorders". Leave that to the trained professionals. In any case, worry about their actions and deal with those.
> 
> C
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well, thank you for your wise advice on that subject, but I had help from my therapist and the psychologist on his team that teaches profiling at a medical school. I am also a Christian so I don't go around making judgements about the worthiness of people based off of sins they committed. I try to look at things in an unbiased fashion as much as I can and not rely on my own hangups to make snap judgements.


----------



## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

TheSecretGarden14 said:


> Well, thank you for your wise advice on that subject, but I had help from my therapist and the psychologist on his team that teaches profiling at a medical school. I am also a Christian so I don't go around making judgements about the worthiness of people based off of sins they committed. I try to look at things in an unbiased fashion as much as I can and not rely on my own hangups to make snap judgements.


You're welcome

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TheSecretGarden14 (Feb 7, 2014)

I'm not trying to defend him for the affair. The affair itself is all his fault for deciding to stray instead of being the stand-up man he was when I married him. He has done some really crappy things like leave his wife and two kids when the youngest was only three months old. He has been verbally abusive to me since the separation when he never was during the marriage. He has said mean nasty things to his parents and siblings. He has not been a good guy at all.

However, with the help of the team mentioned earlier, I have learned how to discern when he is in the fog of gaslighting. I have also seen glimpses of the man I married once he goes more than two weeks with no contact with her. I have had full access two different times to his phone and emails. I have seen for myself that he keeps trying to call it off. I have seen when she starts back in and how she makes him question his own thoughts to a point he can't trust his own decisions. 

I'm not asking for anyone to discount the negative part he has played in his own messed up life. I'm asking for someone to look at it from more than just the "he is a cheater, let him lay in his own bed" point of view.

I was really hoping at least one person had dealt with a AP that was quickly becoming a "bunny boiler".


----------



## commonsenseisn't (Aug 13, 2014)

You do realize the most decisive way to help him end his PA is to simply divorce him? 

No relationship with you=no cheating on you

If you want to reconcile, I don't know of any way it can work unless HE does ALL the work in decisively ending his relationship with her. You would be wise to not let yourself get dragged into the drama between these two. 

Sometimes when fools are keen to collide you just have to step back and let them. Once you get wise enough to understand this you will come to see that they deserve each other.


----------



## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

I am not aware offhand of any posters whose spouse ended up with a bunny boiler so you're probably stuck with the rest of us if you want advice. And mine is: It's not your issue. Let him deal with it. Do you really want her craziness totally focused on you? Because that's what you'll get if you do what he wants. He got himself into this mess and he will have to get himself out.


----------



## dignityhonorpride (Jan 2, 2014)

> He wants me to call her and tell her that I believe her to be unstable and immoral and, therefore, a danger to my children's wellbeing. He wants me to say that if she continues to try to be a part of his life or contact him that I will take the steps I need to as full legal custodian and cut his visitations to supervised at his parents house.


As others have said -- why can't he do his own dirty work? This reeks of manipulation to me. I would be concerned that this is some plot the two of them hatched to attempt to establish a record of you acting unstable / harassing her / making threats / creating parental alienation / etc. 

If I were you, I would say, "I'm not your secretary." END OF CONVERSATION! If he said "But, X Y Z!" I would repeat myself. If he brought it up again, I would simply repeat myself. Do not engage. He's not on your side, he's on his own side at best and her side at worst.


----------



## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

TheSecretGarden14 said:


> I'm not trying to defend him for the affair. The affair itself is all his fault for deciding to stray instead of being the stand-up man he was when I married him. He has done some really crappy things like leave his wife and two kids when the youngest was only three months old. He has been verbally abusive to me since the separation when he never was during the marriage. He has said mean nasty things to his parents and siblings. He has not been a good guy at all.
> 
> However, with the help of the team mentioned earlier, I have learned how to discern when he is in the fog of gaslighting. I have also seen glimpses of the man I married once he goes more than two weeks with no contact with her. I have had full access two different times to his phone and emails. I have seen for myself that he keeps trying to call it off. I have seen when she starts back in and how she makes him question his own thoughts to a point he can't trust his own decisions.
> 
> ...


You may be asking for too much.

Were he showing glimpses of the man you used to know then he would have manned up and told her to leave him alone- or else. 

But he hasn't, has he?

You must stay away from her. He has to do this, but he isn't man enough or loves you enough to do so.

I mean, what can we advise? There is simply no magic formula. Your husband has to make a decision between her or you and his family. And if he isn't man enough to do so then your options are exhausted.

I am truly sorry to be the bearer of such difficult news.


----------



## TheSecretGarden14 (Feb 7, 2014)

Just wanted to say thank you for talking sense into me. I didn't go through with it. I had the same feelings of manipulation. I may not have liked some of the delivery styles, but the message was valid. 
I just feel so helpless with all this sometimes. It's been seven months now of manipulations on her part. Manipulating me with her smooth talk assuring me that she was not involved with him and not taking steps against my marriage even though he was telling me the truth and she very much was. Manipulating him with her talk of God putting them together to save each other and telling him his family didn't love him since they didn't agree with his choice. It's been a horrific mind screw. 

But my mind isn't completely gone yet! It just needs to be triggered by smart people. Thanks to all!


----------



## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

warlock07 said:


> He wants you to be the villain so that he can go back to her if/when things get bad with you. So now he will tell her that he will get back with you because "kids". And probably string this woman behind the scenes for much longer
> 
> What a cowardly piece of sh!t this guy is.
> 
> The OW seems to be just another victim to his lies.


the OW is a POS too


----------



## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Interesting, so they profiled a woman they never met and have convinced you she is a sociopath? He and your team have done a good job of painting her as a sociopath. Sorry, you are defending his actions by putting all the blame on her. By your own standards, related in your posts, he isn't in the "fog" he is a sociopath as well. 

Divorce your husband, talk about what you can do to fix "you" with your "team" and don't help him do squat.


----------



## TheSecretGarden14 (Feb 7, 2014)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Interesting, so they profiled a woman they never met and have convinced you she is a sociopath? He and your team have done a good job of painting her as a sociopath. Sorry, you are defending his actions by putting all the blame on her. By your own standards, related in your posts, he isn't in the "fog" he is a sociopath as well.
> 
> Divorce your husband, talk about what you can do to fix "you" with your "team" and don't help him do squat.


You have an interesting argument yourself. Let me make sure I have it straight.
The people who specialize in treating and recognizing mental illness cannot make an educated analysis of her behavior based off of separate interviews with both my WS and my self simply becuase they haven't seen her face, but you can can make uneducated judgement about the actions of my WS, based solely on the limited information you have read in my posts. Is that about right?

I appreciate all the advice I get here and I seriously think about it before using it or discarding it. However, I thought this was a place I could come to in order to get help thinking things threw. I have shared here in times of high emotion and in times of rational thought. I have never straight up told anyone to divorce their WS. I feel that every situation is different and I highly doubt that you have the full story on any of the posts on this board. All you have is their side and only the things they decide to share. I have been honest about his flaws. I have been honest with myself about my own. I may very well end up divorced by the end of it. But, if I want to follow my understanding of my WS, the words of my bible, the advice of my therapist, and my own heart, who are you to tell me not me not to?

I asked for help regarding a particular event and received great advice that I took. I did not ask for your definitive assessment of my marriage or what I need to fix about me. I think I'm good with professionals I pay for that part.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

TheSecretGarden14 said:


> He wants me to call her and tell her that I believe her to be unstable and immoral and, therefore, a danger to my children's wellbeing. He wants me to say that if she continues to try to be a part of his life or contact him that I will take the steps I need to as full legal custodian and cut his visitations to supervised at his parents house.


:rofl:

I've heard it all, now! HE wants YOU to end HIS affair for him? That's rich.

I hope you hung up on him.

SG, here's the truth. The ONLY way he will see the light and do the right thing is if you remove yourself from his grasp. "I will have nothing to do with you until OW is gone from the picture for good. How that happens is up to you. Not my concern, as I am moving forward with my life without you while you cheat. Let me know if you ever do it." Click.

As long as you're letting him eat cake, he will continue to eat cake. Remove your slice.


----------



## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

Why so defensive and angry OP? You are blaming the OW when it is your husband who is cheating on you. He chose the OW and he cheated because he wanted to. She could have just as easily been a regular woman without issues who offered up what your husband wanted naturally. The result would have been the same. That woman would have lied to you as well. It is just the way cheating goes.


----------



## BobSimmons (Mar 2, 2013)

TheSecretGarden14 said:


> You have an interesting argument yourself. Let me make sure I have it straight.
> The people who specialize in treating and recognizing mental illness cannot make an educated analysis of her behavior based off of separate interviews with both my WS and my self simply becuase they haven't seen her face, but you can can make uneducated judgement about the actions of my WS, based solely on the limited information you have read in my posts. Is that about right?
> 
> I appreciate all the advice I get here and I seriously think about it before using it or discarding it. However, I thought this was a place I could come to in order to get help thinking things threw. I have shared here in times of high emotion and in times of rational thought. I have never straight up told anyone to divorce their WS. I feel that every situation is different and I highly doubt that you have the full story on any of the posts on this board. All you have is their side and only the things they decide to share. I have been honest about his flaws. I have been honest with myself about my own. I may very well end up divorced by the end of it. But, if I want to follow my understanding of my WS, the words of my bible, the advice of my therapist, and my own heart, who are you to tell me not me not to?
> ...


She's a sociopath...so what? I presume she was a sociopath when your husband got with her? She "manipulated him" with her devious ways? Meanwhile to end this all he wants you to call her and tell her it's over?

It's very simple. He blocks her number, changes his number, change your house number, blocks his email. Gets a restraining order, if she shows up, she gets arrested.

Hopefully that should take care of that. Sense you want to push back for push backs sake against the good folk whom are trying to help you.

Good luck.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

TheSecretGarden14 said:


> You have an interesting argument yourself. Let me make sure I have it straight.
> The people who specialize in treating and recognizing mental illness cannot make an educated analysis of her behavior based off of separate interviews with both my WS and my self simply becuase they haven't seen her face, but you can can make uneducated judgement about the actions of my WS, based solely on the limited information you have read in my posts. Is that about right?


It's called an assumption based on a biased sample. To make the assessment with only your second hand information and your spouse's face saving comments makes it completely biased. The people in the field I know, would NEVER assign a negative term like SOCIOPATH to someone they NEVER MET. An educated guess is based on actual legit facts and information, your husband lied to you as well so, half their information is based on things told to them by a liar.



> I appreciate all the advice I get here and I seriously think about it before using it or discarding it. However, I thought this was a place I could come to in order to get help thinking things threw. I have shared here in times of high emotion and in times of rational thought. I have never straight up told anyone to divorce their WS. I feel that every situation is different and I highly doubt that you have the full story on any of the posts on this board. All you have is their side and only the things they decide to share. I have been honest about his flaws. I have been honest with myself about my own. I may very well end up divorced by the end of it. But, if I want to follow my understanding of my WS, the words of my bible, the advice of my therapist, and my own heart, who are you to tell me not me not to?


I'm a human with an opinion contrary to yours. You typed something I disagreed with and voiced my opinion. I didn't tell you not to do anything. I did tell you to let him end it himself and I said your criteria fits your husband. 



> I asked for help regarding a particular event and received great advice that I took. I did not ask for your definitive assessment of my marriage or what I need to fix about me. I think I'm good with professionals I pay for that part.


I haven't assessed your marriage, I assessed your claims, your therapists claims and now your husband's claims as well.


----------



## Calibre1212 (Aug 11, 2014)

If the OW can cause such a change in his "personality", you better run, with your kids. He is not-well, to say the least, she is not-well & you may end up not-well along with the kids. The situation you speak of is psychotic. You cannot rescue your husband. 

P.S. There is only one Jesus.


----------



## TheSecretGarden14 (Feb 7, 2014)

Clipclop- I'm not angry. Defensive, yes. I guess I was just taken aback by the quick responses to get out. I had thought I would get more understanding from here since many BS stay with the WS and work things out. I know there are far less of them than the ones that end it, but this site has given me strength in the past.

I don't know if I failed to explain the situation enough or if the ones that jumped to divorce have no personal experience with this level of crazy. I felt like I was being attacked for making assumptions about the OW and that is not true. At one point, I loved this woman as my best friend. She pretended to support me in trying to get my WS to reconcile all the way to just a few hours before WS admitted the PA. She called me everyday and assured me that WS was hurting, too, and she just knew we would work this out. She took him on their first date just 6 days after I moved out of the house, showered him with gifts and cards, and they went PA only two weeks later. I found out a month later, she kept up with the friendship the whole time. I questioned it way before they admitted. When I made the first accusation, she was so convincing, made me feel like the worst person in the world for "questioning her integrity." When I confronted her after WS came clean, she lied to my face. I made her walk to our house and say it in front of WS. She still lied. Then, she finally broke and I'll never forget her exact words- "I guess this is what I get for trusting someone. I guess I only attract men that want to use me." No apology, no empathy for her supposed best friend, and no guilt. Simply pissed off that he told me. There were other things, too. She started an EA with him when I was 8 months pregnant, with no remorse or thought about my son or the baby I was carrying. Then, she threw me a baby shower. After the separation, she told me of how she had slapped him twice for calling her names. When I brought this up to WS, concerned about her doing it in front of my children he said it never happened and her story change twice. First, she called me blessing me out because she said she never said it and that I was losing my mind and needed help. Then, she said something similar might have happened while they were playing around. WS later admitted that it did happen, but not for calling her names. It was because he refused to talk to her. Once the cat was out of the bag, she became a stalker. She started sending me pins on pinterest and FB messages about soulmates, with personal notes about how happy they were. I blocked her on all media and my phone. She has never said she was sorry. To this day her pinterest page is overflowing with pins with personal messages to me. Quotes like- he loves her of course, but more importantly he chooses her everyday. With a caption that reads- yep, he chooses me everyday, and always will. She also pins scripture about how Christian she is, yet she is married and having a PA with a married man. I have physical evidence of most of her lies, including sworn statements from the five married men and their wives that she did this to just in the last 2.5 years. I mentioned that she has physically abused WS. The last time he broke it off, she pushed him, tried to barricade the door, and then jumped on his truck as he was already moving. He won't call the police for fear of retaliation and then he has to keep contact with her because of some time consuming, mutual investments she talked him into that will finally ending in two weeks. I am genuinely scared of how far she will go. I had it put in the custody agreement that he specifically could not have her around our kids. She is actually named in the order.
My WS has flaws, many of them. However, he can't take full blame for allowing this predator into our lives. If he is at fault, then I am a fault too, for not knowing/ seeing the red flags. During the custody issue, he had been acting as if he was on drugs. Enough that I was granted an emergency hearing and won full legal custody. He had to complete a drug test, physical, and psychological evaluation to resume visitation.
He passed everything.

I truly believe we were targeted by this woman. All of this has happened, including the fast development of her and my relationship, in only 18 months. I will not be a victim, just because I was a target. I had to face my own blindness, naivety, and too trusting nature. He has the same issues. I know what he is dealing with and while I don't feel sorry for him, I do empathize, because I've been there. If after that y'all don't agree that we are dealing with a little bit more than your standard EA or PA, then I won't keep trying to convince you. 

Thanks again to those who helped.

To those that dug into me, thank you for giving me a chance to stand up for myself. I'm working on that in therapy, but I don't get much practice IRL.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

You believe you were targeted. Well, duh. But what does that have to do with your husband thinking with his penis? And what the hell does it have to do with your husband being such a sleeze that he would ask YOU - the person he destroyed - to fix his problem for him? Have you always allowed him to get away with murder and cleaned up his messes for him? That would explain the entitlement he's so full of.

If you're guilty of ANYthing, it would be that you set him up to be a prima donna by putting him first. Of course, I'm just guessing, based on what you've written.

But my advice still stands - you need to make it CLEAR that you will have NOTHING to do with him until he is 100% skank-free and can prove it.


----------



## NotEZ (Sep 23, 2012)

HE is NOT a victim. He CHOSE to have an EA and he CHOSE to have a PA with her. All your statements above show is that she is 1) a horrible friend; and 
2) Your husband has horrible taste in affair partners

Did she drug him and "TAKE" him on their first date "6 days after you separated"? Or did he willingly go?

He doesn't need to be scared of her... he could get a restraining order if he wanted. Though I don't believe they give those on the basis of "other woman" posting love quotes on your wives pinterest. Darn.

If you choose to believe that your wonderful husband fell victim to a predatory woman who just couldn't be stopped, I feel for you. I have a strange feeling that you will find your husband has the uncanny ability to attract such predators in the coming years. Good Luck to you!

PS: Fire your therapists. Your husband is CHEATER who, imagine that, chose to do so with a lesser woman (a given, seeing as those with morals don't sleep with MARRIED MAN). Anyone who would excuse his behaviour towards you with "other woman MUST be a sociopath" isn't worth the ink their degree was printed with. Any therapist worth a dime would be question YOU as to why you would be with a man that would choose "such a woman" over YOU. 

You should probably start asking yourself that question too.


----------



## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

The majority of us who post on CWI have been cheated on and damaged. We have the emotional scars to prove it. So we tend more toward practical tough love than lots of hand-holding and sympathy -- because sympathy won't actually help you. Yes, we are sorry you find yourself here and, yes, you certainly got played but the goal now is to get you thinking about what you should be doing for you. 

Your husband needs to end his affair on his own and show you through actions, not words, that he wants your marriage. He has to do the hard work required to get there. That's his responsibility. Your responsibility is to work on whatever issues you might have so that if you should reconcile you will be ready to go forward with your new marriage. Because the old marriage is gone. It ended when he cheated. A new one can be much better than the old one but he has his responsibilities to take care of before that can happen.


----------



## NotEZ (Sep 23, 2012)

I read your thread in the reconciliation forum. In your last post you said that your "team" is working on getting you to be "less of a doormat". In this thread, you said that your "team" diagnosed OW as a sociopath who targeted you and your husband. This doesn't reconcile to me. Their advice is "Don't be a doormat to your husband who was manipulated into cheating by a sociopathic OW?" 

Do you pay said "team" or do they pay you?


----------



## TheSecretGarden14 (Feb 7, 2014)

turnera said:


> You believe you were targeted. Well, duh. But what does that have to do with your husband thinking with his penis? And what the hell does it have to do with your husband being such a sleeze that he would ask YOU - the person he destroyed - to fix his problem for him? Have you always allowed him to get away with murder and cleaned up his messes for him? That would explain the entitlement he's so full of.
> 
> If you're guilty of ANYthing, it would be that you set him up to be a prima donna by putting him first. Of course, I'm just guessing, based on what you've written.
> 
> But my advice still stands - you need to make it CLEAR that you will have NOTHING to do with him until he is 100% skank-free and can prove it.


Before kids we were great about keeping each other accountable. After kids, I focused on them and he focused on work. I told him two weeks ago that while I accept that I helped get our marriage to the weak state it was in, that I did not make him cheat. He was responsible for our current situation. I told him if he hadn't been so weak she would have never had chance. People like her, even if she doesn't have a label, know how to pick easy targets. I was an easy target for my too trusting nature, my uncanny ability to see everything through rose colored glasses, and my tendency to avoid conflict. I saw the warning signs. I just trusted in my WS, that he would never do anything like that. He was weak, he has a strong need to be needed, and he also avoids conflict. His therapist called it white night syndrome. Too eager to please.

During that discussion, I told him that until he can own up to his huge part in this and stop blaming my faults pushing him to an EA, that we will never work out. That I was done until she was 100% PROVABLY gone, he spent some time away from all women including me to make sure our marriage was what he wanted and he couldn't say later that he was pressured into R, and that he was fully committed to working on a Christ centered marriage. 

I hadn't talked to him except regarding the kids since then until he asked me to help. Since then, I contacted him to tell him I wouldn't do it, because I was afraid of it being used against me either in court or by him later saying I forced R because I made her go away. Other than that, just kid talk.


----------



## TheSecretGarden14 (Feb 7, 2014)

NotEZ said:


> I read your thread in the reconciliation forum. In your last post you said that your "team" is working on getting you to be "less of a doormat". In this thread, you said that your "team" diagnosed OW as a sociopath who targeted you and your husband. This doesn't reconcile to me. Their advice is "Don't be a doormat to your husband who was manipulated into cheating by a sociopathic OW?"
> 
> Do you pay said "team" or do they pay you?


My biggest problem is I hate conflict. My crappy childhood was full of people leaving. Before kids, I was of the mindset of "let them leave, been there done that." After kids, I have to admit that I was a bit of doormat. He never pushed me around or abused me in any way other than taking me for granted. If he came up with one of his car flipping ideas, I didn't say no. He took out a loan to start a business and I didn't blink an eye. He gets upset with himself more than anyone else and then he will do the silence thing until he figures it out. It drove me crazy, but I said that just how he handles things and it not personal. Other little thing like that were rug swept until I would finally crack and the argument would be worse than it needed to be.

To tie the sociopathic part together so you can see what therapist was getting at, by being so nonconfrontational, I turned blind eye to the red flags she was throwing out everywhere, and I let myself be target. As I said in the other response, sociopaths know who is easy and who would be too much work. A high percentage of targets are hit multiple times in their lives because they don't look at what made them an easy target only that they got hurt by a bad person.
So, yes I need to learn to stand up for myself and learn to deal with conflict.


----------



## NotEZ (Sep 23, 2012)

TheSecretGarden14 said:


> My biggest problem is I hate conflict. My crappy childhood was full of people leaving. Before kids, I was of the mindset of "let them leave, been there done that." After kids, I have to admit that I was a bit of doormat. He never pushed me around or abused me in any way other than taking me for granted. If he came up with one of his car flipping ideas, I didn't say no. He took out a loan to start a business and I didn't blink an eye. He gets upset with himself more than anyone else and then he will do the silence thing until he figures it out. It drove me crazy, but I said that just how he handles things and it not personal. Other little thing like that were rug swept until I would finally crack and the argument would be worse than it needed to be.
> 
> To tie the sociopathic part together so you can see what therapist was getting at, by being so nonconfrontational, I turned blind eye to the red flags she was throwing out everywhere, and I let myself be target. As I said in the other response, sociopaths know who is easy and who would be too much work. A high percentage of targets are hit multiple times in their lives because they don't look at what made them an easy target only that they got hurt by a bad person.
> So, yes I need to learn to stand up for myself and learn to deal with conflict.


Everything that you just said makes me understand where your "team" is coming from... my question is whether they were talking about the OW being a sociopath or if they were talking about your husband!

The OW targeted your husband, not you. HE SAID OK. The OW offered sex to your husband, not you. HE SAID OK. You are STILL being a doormat by accepting his version of "she's a sociopath". 

If he really is scared of how she will retaliate if he breaks it off with her, why would he ask YOU, his wife, to confront her? You don't think that if she is "crazy" enough to attack him if he breaks it off, she will attack YOU if you break it of for him? You really respect a man that chooses to cheat and then makes his WIFE break off his relationship for him because she is bat **** crazy and he is scared? That makes NO sense. 

If she is a sociopath, he threw you to the wolves. He is making you responsible for his actions. And you are absolving him of all responsibility by blaming her. You are still his doormat.

Your husband sleeps with someone else and you respond with she is a psyco who targeted us and made him do it. HE CHOSE HER! You place zero fault on his choosing to screw this woman and you don't even question what kind of man would make you face the psychopath he tripped and fell into? 

Your therapy is NOT working... its even clearer when you try to tie it together with a little bow. You are HIS doormat. You are being target by HIM. It was her this time, next time it will be someone else. An amazing amount of crazies will walk into his life, because YOU let him walk all over you.


----------



## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

NotEZ said:


> Everything that you just said makes me understand where your "team" is coming from... my question is whether they were talking about the OW being a sociopath or if they were talking about your husband!
> 
> The OW targeted your husband, not you. HE SAID OK. The OW offered sex to your husband, not you. HE SAID OK. You are STILL being a doormat by accepting his version of "she's a sociopath".
> 
> ...


:iagree:
She may possibly be a sociopath, but focusing on that is letting your husband off very lightly. Focusing on her and the label 'sociopath' gives your husband a lot of room to manipulate you.


----------



## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

do you realize how many cheaters lie to their spouses face day after day after day? Do you realize how many denyt I video or photographic evidence of their affairs? why is this woman delusional and the other spouses who are cheating and do similar things are not? 

none of them are delusional. What they are are cheaters. Cheaters lie. your husband lied to you correct? didn't he lie to your face? Did he do so repeatedly?

just remember that you are blaming this woman so that you can allow yourself to stay with your husband. it's something you are constructing in your mind to allow yourself to take him back. but choosing what you believe like this is just as questionable as her behavior in terms of it not reflecting all of reality. 

you say you don't want to play the victim but you are telling us you are a victim. You are also saying that your husband is a victim.

where in this is his accountability? he wanted to cheat or she would not have been able to get him into bed. he wanted everything he got from her. he took it willingly while you are pregnant.

What kind of a man is that? he doesn't sound like a victim to me. He sounds like a perpetrator.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TheSecretGarden14 (Feb 7, 2014)

NotEZ and TiggyBlue- I don't intend to let him off easy, but I'm sometimes to empathetic to people I care for. I will admit that I want to believe that that they were only using each other to fulfill emotional needs and that it was only physical the two times, but my logical brain tells me I would be stupid to believe that. I do believe they both have huge problems with true intimacy and at least for him, she was "safe" because she gave him the attention and feeling of being needed without him having to worry about actually doing things for her or having to work for her affection. She already "believed" that they were soulmates ordained by God. He also has a warped idea of what love and marriage should be. He thinks it should be easy and that you shouldn't have to work on it. Early in our relationship, before we were married, he expressed concerns that he didn't think it was love because he felt that I was his best friend and he was just lucky enough to be able to have great sex with me everyday. Then, I was in a bad car accident, and he said he realized that it was love because even though the above was true, when the police called him, he didn't think about those things. All he could think of was that if I died his heart and future would die with me. 
The man I married had very high values, would give his shirt off his back to help someone in need, and was harder on himself than anyone else ever was, but he had a hard time owning up until he finished beating himself up. Hence the silent periods, he wouldn't deny his guilt, he just didn't admit it or say sorry until he made peace with it. Up until last fall he still was that person. I know people change, but not that fast or extreme with out external influence. That is why in the beginning, I thought he was the sociopath. I looked everywhere for a reason for the change. I refuse to believe that I (and everyone else) was wrong about him. I thought, I know I see things through rose colored glasses, but I've dealt with drug users, abusers, and people of low morals. There is no way possible I was blind to those issues. Then, before I entered IC, I found a website about antisocial personality disorders (I know, I know) and it made sense. I felt it was the only explanation for how he had changed. Then, when I started IC, my therapist said that while many people with sociopathy are able to live normal lives going mostly unnoticed even they have slips in their mask that make people uneasy and question their behaviors. That even if they are successful at fooling everyone else, their parents would have some idea that their child had no feelings or conscience. It was not likely that WS went 32 years without any question of his ability to care about others or feel quilt and remorse, if he actually was a sociopath. So, I dropped it. I went dark and only talked to him about the kids from March to May. I got myself together, made a new life for me and the children, and started moving on. 

Then, the first time he broke it off, he came to me about three weeks afterwards and asked me to talk him through everything that had happened, because he couldn't remember some of the details and some events entirely. We didn't talk about us. We only talked about the actual events and words said. He cried, hard. He said he didn't understand any of it. He claimed that he didn't even like her, but when he was with her he forgot that and physically felt like he was on drugs. That he no longer trusted his own memory or choices. Even deciding what to eat made him think he needed to ask her and he couldn't figure out why. I asked him to come to therapy with me. After, he explained his story, the therapist asked if we had heard of gaslighting. That's when he had us separately work with the Psychiatrist and got WS a separate therapist with more work in PTSD. He said WS was showing clear signs of gaslighting and many of PTSD which is extremely common for people who have been gaslighted. 

We did go through a back and forth period after that. I thought w had finally decided to go for R for real. He gave me full transparency, passwords including to his phone bill so I could see if he was deleting messages. He still had to talk to her about the investments. We never moved back together and we didn't renew our sex life. 

I did not help him this time. I have set my boundaries and I will stick to them. They are: limited contact until she is completely out of the picture, continue IC and start MC, complete transparency again, that he accepts that he is at fault and that he doesn't come back unless he decides he 100% dedicated to our marriage and making it God centered marriage. That last one is more important than it probably seems to some, but a leading Christian life is the path I'm taking and if he can't walk it with me their is no point.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Go get the book Not Just Friends. That will explain a lot. When you get done with it, mail it to your husband to read.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

TheSecretGarden14 said:


> Clipclop- I'm not angry. Defensive, yes. I guess I was just taken aback by the quick responses to get out.


You assumed I just jumped to divorce. You should really reread your post history. I read your post history before I made my comment.

Here is a summary:
1)You have been in a couple of false reconciliation attempts.
2)He cheated on you while you were pregnant.
3)He told you he didn't love you anymore.
4) YOU called him a sociopath. 
5)You stopped wearing your wedding ring.
6) You recently broke off ANOTHER reconciliation attempt.

I made my comments because of what you previously wrote then added what you reiterated in this thread.


----------



## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

TheSecretGarden14 said:


> I agree he is very weak, right now. I don't know if any of you have ever dealt with true sociopathic gaslighting before, but it's not so cut and dry as tell her it's over, change the number, and call it a day.


She is not the only sociopath in this triangle. She is not the only one doing the manipulation.

You absolutely, positively, 100% need to stop defending him and his actions - which you ARE doing, despite you saying to the contrary.



phillybeffandswiss said:


> Interesting, so they profiled a woman they never met and have convinced you she is a sociopath? He and your team have done a good job of painting her as a sociopath. Sorry, you are defending his actions by putting all the blame on her. By your own standards, related in your posts, he isn't in the "fog" he is a sociopath as well.


Exactly. She is a sociopath. He is lost in the fog. Really? How do you know what garbage HE is feeding HER? Maybe HE is the sociopath, manipulating TWO women, and she is the one in the fog?

He is asking YOU to end HIS affair. That sounds like a manipulative sociopath S.O.B. to me. And you are contemplating actually doing this. With all due respect (and I mean that), how on god's green earth could you even entertain such a thought? For most, including me, that would be the death knell of my marriage, if my spouse asked me to end THEIR affair for them.

I believe we have 2 sociopaths and 3 people "in the fog" here, and that is just an awful situation to be in.

Because you can only control yourself, start there.



TheSecretGarden14 said:


> You have an interesting argument yourself. Let me make sure I have it straight.
> The people who specialize in treating and recognizing mental illness cannot make an educated analysis of her behavior based off of separate interviews with both my WS and my self simply becuase they haven't seen her face, but you can can make uneducated judgement about the actions of my WS, based solely on the limited information you have read in my posts. Is that about right?


IMO, a professional in this field should not even SUGGEST something about a person they have never met. They are getting 3rd party information from two people who are biased. They have not spoken to this woman, let alone been able to properly diagnose her with ANY mental issues.

Furthermore, just because somebody has "Dr." before their name, or charges a fee for their time, or went to school in their respective field, does not instantly make them any good at their job.



TheSecretGarden14 said:


> I asked for help regarding a particular event and received great advice that I took. I did not ask for your definitive assessment of my marriage or what I need to fix about me. I think I'm good with professionals I pay for that part.


But often one does need to fix themselves first. As others have said here, you have clearly allowed yourself to be walked on and manipulated. That does not mean that any of this is your fault, obviously, so there should be no guilt attached to what happened on your part. But the sheer fact that your husband is asking you to fix his enormous mistake makes it abundantly clear of what he thinks of you. The fact that you are putting the bulk of the blame on HER, not HIM, makes it abundantly clear that this is not a healthy relationship to begin with.



NotEZ said:


> Everything that you just said makes me understand where your "team" is coming from... my question is whether they were talking about the OW being a sociopath or if they were talking about your husband!
> 
> The OW targeted your husband, not you. HE SAID OK. The OW offered sex to your husband, not you. HE SAID OK. You are STILL being a doormat by accepting his version of "she's a sociopath".


THIS.



NotEZ said:


> Your therapy is NOT working... its even clearer when you try to tie it together with a little bow. You are HIS doormat. You are being target by HIM. It was her this time, next time it will be someone else. An amazing amount of crazies will walk into his life, because YOU let him walk all over you.


And THIS.


----------



## Calibre1212 (Aug 11, 2014)

TheSecretGarden14 said:


> Clipclop- I'm not angry. Defensive, yes. I guess I was just taken aback by the quick responses to get out. I had thought I would get more understanding from here since many BS stay with the WS and work things out. I know there are far less of them than the ones that end it, but this site has given me strength in the past.
> 
> I don't know if I failed to explain the situation enough or if the ones that jumped to divorce have no personal experience with this level of crazy. I felt like I was being attacked for making assumptions about the OW and that is not true. At one point, I loved this woman as my best friend. She pretended to support me in trying to get my WS to reconcile all the way to just a few hours before WS admitted the PA. She called me everyday and assured me that WS was hurting, too, and she just knew we would work this out. She took him on their first date just 6 days after I moved out of the house, showered him with gifts and cards, and they went PA only two weeks later. I found out a month later, she kept up with the friendship the whole time. I questioned it way before they admitted. When I made the first accusation, she was so convincing, made me feel like the worst person in the world for "questioning her integrity." When I confronted her after WS came clean, she lied to my face. I made her walk to our house and say it in front of WS. She still lied. Then, she finally broke and I'll never forget her exact words- "I guess this is what I get for trusting someone. I guess I only attract men that want to use me." No apology, no empathy for her supposed best friend, and no guilt. Simply pissed off that he told me. There were other things, too. She started an EA with him when I was 8 months pregnant, with no remorse or thought about my son or the baby I was carrying. Then, she threw me a baby shower. After the separation, she told me of how she had slapped him twice for calling her names. When I brought this up to WS, concerned about her doing it in front of my children he said it never happened and her story change twice. First, she called me blessing me out because she said she never said it and that I was losing my mind and needed help. Then, she said something similar might have happened while they were playing around. WS later admitted that it did happen, but not for calling her names. It was because he refused to talk to her. Once the cat was out of the bag, she became a stalker. She started sending me pins on pinterest and FB messages about soulmates, with personal notes about how happy they were. I blocked her on all media and my phone. She has never said she was sorry. To this day her pinterest page is overflowing with pins with personal messages to me. Quotes like- he loves her of course, but more importantly he chooses her everyday. With a caption that reads- yep, he chooses me everyday, and always will. She also pins scripture about how Christian she is, yet she is married and having a PA with a married man. I have physical evidence of most of her lies, including sworn statements from the five married men and their wives that she did this to just in the last 2.5 years. I mentioned that she has physically abused WS. The last time he broke it off, she pushed him, tried to barricade the door, and then jumped on his truck as he was already moving. He won't call the police for fear of retaliation and then he has to keep contact with her because of some time consuming, mutual investments she talked him into that will finally ending in two weeks. I am genuinely scared of how far she will go. I had it put in the custody agreement that he specifically could not have her around our kids. She is actually named in the order.
> My WS has flaws, many of them. However, he can't take full blame for allowing this predator into our lives. If he is at fault, then I am a fault too, for not knowing/ seeing the red flags. During the custody issue, he had been acting as if he was on drugs. Enough that I was granted an emergency hearing and won full legal custody. He had to complete a drug test, physical, and psychological evaluation to resume visitation.
> ...



"NotEZ and TiggyBlue- I don't intend to let him off easy, but I'm sometimes to empathetic to people I care for. I will admit that I want to believe that that they were only using each other to fulfill emotional needs and that it was only physical the two times, but my logical brain tells me I would be stupid to believe that. I do believe they both have huge problems with true intimacy and at least for him, she was "safe" because she gave him the attention and feeling of being needed without him having to worry about actually doing things for her or having to work for her affection. She already "believed" that they were soulmates ordained by God. He also has a warped idea of what love and marriage should be. He thinks it should be easy and that you shouldn't have to work on it. Early in our relationship, before we were married, he expressed concerns that he didn't think it was love because he felt that I was his best friend and he was just lucky enough to be able to have great sex with me everyday. Then, I was in a bad car accident, and he said he realized that it was love because even though the above was true, when the police called him, he didn't think about those things. All he could think of was that if I died his heart and future would die with me. 
The man I married had very high values, would give his shirt off his back to help someone in need, and was harder on himself than anyone else ever was, but he had a hard time owning up until he finished beating himself up. Hence the silent periods, he wouldn't deny his guilt, he just didn't admit it or say sorry until he made peace with it. Up until last fall he still was that person. I know people change, but not that fast or extreme with out external influence. That is why in the beginning, I thought he was the sociopath. I looked everywhere for a reason for the change. I refuse to believe that I (and everyone else) was wrong about him. I thought, I know I see things through rose colored glasses, but I've dealt with drug users, abusers, and people of low morals. There is no way possible I was blind to those issues. Then, before I entered IC, I found a website about antisocial personality disorders (I know, I know) and it made sense. I felt it was the only explanation for how he had changed. Then, when I started IC, my therapist said that while many people with sociopathy are able to live normal lives going mostly unnoticed even they have slips in their mask that make people uneasy and question their behaviors. That even if they are successful at fooling everyone else, their parents would have some idea that their child had no feelings or conscience. It was not likely that WS went 32 years without any question of his ability to care about others or feel quilt and remorse, if he actually was a sociopath. So, I dropped it. I went dark and only talked to him about the kids from March to May. I got myself together, made a new life for me and the children, and started moving on. 

Then, the first time he broke it off, he came to me about three weeks afterwards and asked me to talk him through everything that had happened, because he couldn't remember some of the details and some events entirely. We didn't talk about us. We only talked about the actual events and words said. He cried, hard. He said he didn't understand any of it. He claimed that he didn't even like her, but when he was with her he forgot that and physically felt like he was on drugs. That he no longer trusted his own memory or choices. Even deciding what to eat made him think he needed to ask her and he couldn't figure out why. I asked him to come to therapy with me. After, he explained his story, the therapist asked if we had heard of gaslighting. That's when he had us separately work with the Psychiatrist and got WS a separate therapist with more work in PTSD. He said WS was showing clear signs of gaslighting and many of PTSD which is extremely common for people who have been gaslighted. 

We did go through a back and forth period after that. I thought w had finally decided to go for R for real. He gave me full transparency, passwords including to his phone bill so I could see if he was deleting messages. He still had to talk to her about the investments. We never moved back together and we didn't renew our sex life. 

I did not help him this time. I have set my boundaries and I will stick to them. They are: limited contact until she is completely out of the picture, continue IC and start MC, complete transparency again, that he accepts that he is at fault and that he doesn't come back unless he decides he 100% dedicated to our marriage and making it God centered marriage. That last one is more important than it probably seems to some, but a leading Christian life is the path I'm taking and if he can't walk it with me their is no point."

Jesu Cristo! Look at these soliloquies? I need to get paid to read them. After attempting to read the first few sentences....File a restraining order already...STAT...If he needs your help to de-insert, you are giving a whole new meaning to the word "mother". God complex / Martyr complex...God complex / martyr complex...??


----------



## TheSecretGarden14 (Feb 7, 2014)

I have and still am working on me. I have based my decision on what I feel is right for me and my family and I will let God lead my way. I know I will be just fine no matter if R happens or not, but I would be lying to myself if I didn't say my heart wants R. I have my boundaries and I won't accept less. If God intends for us to work it out, then WS will accept all that needs to be done and do it. You are not going to convince me to change my mind nor are you going to make me believe the OW wasn't the aggressor and simply just another victim. Just as you say he had a choice, so did she. She chose to do that to her friend without any remorse. I saw the messages, I lived through the madness, and I'll be damned if I'm going to let people minimize what happened to me and to WS, just because they don't understand what we've been through. Trying to make me second guess what has happened to me is insulting. I'm not an idiot that is just trying to find an excuse to forgive her WS. I don't need an excuse to save my marriage. Just because none of the doubters think gaslighting can affect people so much, doesn't mean its not very real or seriously damaging to those who live through it. There is a huge difference between target and victim. I refused to let her break me. I wasn't the weak soul she thought I was nor am I the stupid BS. I will never be her or anyone else's victim. A couple of you could use a lesson on compassion. Y'all have a goodnight.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

SG, WHO here said the OW was a victim? Let's calm down, ok? We have a TON of experience watching affairs just.like.yours. And for every wife who comes here saying oh my poor husband, we've seen her come back and say , well, you were right, he's been lying, he's been hiding, he's been sneaking..I was snowed because I wanted it to be all her and not him.

We're just trying to save you from the weeks of false belief where it's all her fault and he was just a poor victim. Because, eventually, you're going to get to that point where you realize it.

That said, you're doing all the right things. You're taking all the right steps to get him to break down and accept his guilt. So we're all hoping you get a humbled, remorseful husband who will do all he can to DUMP her cold, and spend years trying to make it up to you. (but still read that book, ok?)


----------



## TheSecretGarden14 (Feb 7, 2014)

turnera said:


> SG, WHO here said the OW was a victim? Let's calm down, ok? We have a TON of experience watching affairs just.like.yours. And for every wife who comes here saying oh my poor husband, we've seen her come back and say , well, you were right, he's been lying, he's been hiding, he's been sneaking..I was snowed because I wanted it to be all her and not him.
> 
> We're just trying to save you from the weeks of false belief where it's all her fault and he was just a poor victim. Because, eventually, you're going to get to that point where you realize it.
> 
> That said, you're doing all the right things. You're taking all the right steps to get him to break down and accept his guilt. So we're all hoping you get a humbled, remorseful husband who will do all he can to DUMP her cold, and spend years trying to make it up to you. (but still read that book, ok?)


There was one in the beginning that I ignored, but I couldn't ignore clipclop and Alexm. Both pretty much say: what you believe isn't true, gaslighting doesn't happen, both you and ow are victims, and you are crazy if you stay. 
I didn't ask anyone to tell me how to handle my entire marriage/divorce or for a second opinion on the origin or validity of the crazy that is in my life.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

You are putting words into other people's mouths. If you would lose the defensiveness (which has been noted by several different people now), you'd be open to hear what's being offered by the score of people who've helped people through affairs just like your husband's. We really can help. Of course, if you just wanted commiseration, we're not that great at that. We always want to stick our noses in and give suggestions.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

TheSecretGarden14 said:


> I didn't ask anyone to tell me how to handle my entire marriage/divorce


 No one has, as of yet, told you how to handle either. I said divorce based on your post history and his ignorance no matter how good he was to you before his affair. 




> or for a second opinion on the origin or validity of the crazy that is in my life.


The minute you ended your post with:


> What would TAM do?


 You asked for advice and second opinions. Your specific religion may frown on divorce, but Christianity does contain reasons for divorce. Yes, the other woman is responsible, but so is your husband.


----------



## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

You are desperate. 

Step back.

What is it that you need to salvage about yourself that makes you defend your husband when he is the one who cheated on you?

You DID NOT CAUSE HIM TO CHEAT.

YOU ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR HIS ACTIONS.

therefore you do not have to defend the indefensible.

He is a willing cheater.

Asking you to help him extricate himself from her is part of HIS manipulation of You. He recognizes what you want to believe and is using it for his benefit.

He is an adult. 

He willingly did what he did.

How freaking hard is it to say no?

Stop being such a willing fool for him!


----------



## TheSecretGarden14 (Feb 7, 2014)

clipclop2 said:


> why is this woman delusional and the other spouses who are cheating and do similar things are not?
> 
> none of them are delusional.
> 
> ...


These are clipclop' s words. He first suggests that the OW is not delusional, just a cheater. Then he says I am constructing things in my mind to make the choice to save my marriage easier on my stomach and even says he thinks I'm the one that is delusional. Last, he says I'm telling everyone I'm a victim and I have not said that I or my husband have been victimized. There is a HUGE difference between being a target and being a victim. The difference being she gave me more power by teaching me a lesson instead of making me powerless.

Thanks, Clipclop, it's already hard enough for people to recognize sociopaths. The people who survive them to tell their stories don't need to be told they themselves are the crazy ones and that the damage is just all in their head! Way to stand up for emotional and psychological abuse. I guess you should go tell all the people battling depression and anxiety that what they feel isn't real if they haven't been diagnosed, too.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

The OW is NOT delusional. She's a willing cheater. Nothing special. No worse than any other run of the mill cheater. I know if you can convince the world that she's this evil siren whom no man can refuse, then you can welcome your H back with no stipulations on HIM.

Good luck with that. You'll be back in two years with the NEXT unbelievably monstrous woman who has yet again managed to seduce your great guy of a man.

And I asked my DD, a psych grad student. She says not only are they not ALLOWED to diagnose anyone they haven't personally seen, but it's unethical to diagnose someone they haven't seen, AND, they have been trained to not use the word sociopath. Even in the face of it.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

fwiw, my dad married a woman we all called the evil witch of the west. She alienated an entire family of 30+ people who refused to speak to her. She ruined my and my husband's life because she didn't get what she wanted. We feared for our daughter's life because we stood up to her. She turned us in to the authorities multiple times to try to control us. Sociopath? Maybe. More like a selfish b*tch.

But, in the end, who the hell cares? We moved on and our lives improved.


----------



## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

I am a woman. 

Look, believe what you like. That's what you want to do. But do not put anything on me when the person who cheated on you is the person you are defending.

I would put my experience and interpretation of this up against yours any day. And that is sad for you. I wish yours was plausible. It just isn't.

You want to believe because of something inside of you.

She could be as mad as a hatter or as sane as a judge. She didn't cheat on you. He did.

So is he mentally unstable and not responsible?

He ducked her. She may have lied to you but he lied and got excited and...

I am very sorry you are here. But let yourself cry and be angry and sad because it was you who was harmed and assaulted and it was at the hands of your husband. She took what she was given. She didn't rape him.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

TheSecretGarden14 said:


> These are clipclop' s words. He first suggests that the OW is not delusional, just a cheater. Then he says I am constructing things in my mind to make the choice to save my marriage easier on my stomach and even says he thinks I'm the one that is delusional. Last, he says I'm telling everyone I'm a victim and I have not said that I or my husband have been victimized. There is a HUGE difference between being a target and being a victim. The difference being she gave me more power by teaching me a lesson instead of making me powerless.


Clipclop2 is not a guy, she didn't call you delusional and she is right about the victim acceptance you are using.
If anything, you have PTSD and if we are going to go with weird conclusions by people we haven't met, you have Stockholm Syndrome as well.

Well then, we now have three people telling you a professional would not diagnose without seeing a patient. So, if true, you need a new team because this group is unethical.


----------



## TheSecretGarden14 (Feb 7, 2014)

clipclop2 said:


> You are desperate.
> 
> Step back.
> 
> ...


You know I'm actually laughing at this one. Your reading comprehension skills leave a lot to be desired.

Where do I appear desperate? Is it in my willingness to walk away if he doesn't meet my requirements for R? Except for the very beginning, I have not begged him. I haven't been perfect on the 180, but I don't go running every time he calls either.

I have not defended him about the affair. I have said multiple times that he is at fault for letting her in in the first place AND that part of me considering R is the stipulation that he own up to his fault.

I have never once said I was at fault for his affair or that my actions caused him to cheat. I have owned up to my share of the marriage failing, but I will never blame myself for what either one of them did.

You are also an adult, and yet here you are trying to convince me I am wrong by twisting my words, and using your own to make me feel inferior for how I perceive the people and events in my life. 

Why don't you step back and realize you crossed a line when you started minimizing what I have been through and devaluing all of my decisions that have taken seven months of discovering myself in order to make.


----------



## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

TheSecretGarden14 said:


> There was one in the beginning that I ignored, but I couldn't ignore clipclop and Alexm. Both pretty much say: what you believe isn't true, gaslighting doesn't happen, both you and ow are victims, and you are crazy if you stay.


Whoa whoa whoa.

That was your interpretation of what was said, and you seem to be doing that to anybody here who's advice you don't like.

I, like cliclop and many others here, speak from experience. Mine was slightly different, but when I came here waaaay back in 2008 when my ex-wife split, I was more or less defending her. I said things like she's a good person, she's just bored, 7-year itch, all that. I believed in my heart that she would be back, and things would be good, that she'd wake up and find herself, blah blah blabbity blah.

People told me to get a grip, and I responded like you are now.

Turned out my wife was a multiple cheater and had actually left me for a guy she had been having an affair with for the 2 years prior. I had NO idea about him. Because of this, she manipulated me, got what she wanted, made me feel bad for her (!!!!) and strung me along. When I finally put 2 and 2 together and confronted her (and not with anger), she told me all about him and what their plans were, and tons of personal details. Then never spoke to me again. My heart was crushed when she left, and then she pulled it out and tore it in two with that. And then disappeared for good.

All kinds of other things came out in the ensuing year or so. Had I opened my eyes to what people told me here on TAM, I wouldn't have wasted my energy and emotions on her the way I did. I wouldn't have been in the fog, in other words.

I see the same defensiveness from you, and I truly feel sad, but I also feel a lot of frustration. People here have good intentions, and their advice and responses come from a good place, even the ones who are being blunt. It's because we've been there before.

You are no different, and you need to stop pretending that your situation is unique. I thought mine was, too.

Cut out all of the circumstance and the little things. Your husband cheated on you. Nothing else matters. The character of the person he cheated with DOES NOT MATTER. Whether you feel she coerced him somehow DOES NOT MATTER. Whether she's perfectly sane or she's a quote/unquote "sociopath" DOES NOT MATTER.

You are here because your husband cheated on you. Period. With whom DOES NOT MATTER.

Blame your husband, and your husband ONLY.

And then be prepared to go through this all again at some point down the road. Why? Because he can, and he clearly wants to. You're casting blame on her. He half expects you to end it for him. He KNOWS you're not going to divorce him. So what is he afraid of the next time he's faced with temptation? Nothing.

I genuinely wish you the best of luck with this, and I beg you to listen to what the folks here have to say, whether you want to hear it or not.


----------



## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

Look, sit back a bit and give yourself a chance to feel what you are feeling. I sense that you tend to be strong and in control and so you are using your resources, paid professionals, to maintain control. Think about that for a bit. 

Could they not be telling you what you want to hear because while you are paying them to diagnose from afar, something they cannot do, they are really trying to protect you?

Mental health workers often lead us to truth gently. In other words they gently lie to us until we are ready to hear the truth,


----------



## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

I'm ok with blaming the other woman too.

It's just that she didn't cheat on you. Her loyalty was never to you. She didn't wear your ring. She never pledged vows.

She also never asked you to help her break up with her married lover who by the way happened to be your husband.

C'mon. Who is delusional? Her or your husband?????


----------



## roostr (Oct 20, 2012)

TheSecretGarden14 said:


> Long story short. We separated, he admitted to EA and PA with best friend and neighbor, and we live apart, but have been attempting R. The OW is a complete sociopath, she gaslighted me to get to him, has crazy pants pinterest boards- one dedicated to my 10 month old that she started when we found out she was a girl and another dedicated to the wedding she is planning for her and WS, she has him in a gaslight fog that he is trying to break free of, and so much more crazy. Here is my R thread if you want more info: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/reconciliation/218730-hot-cold-reconciliation.html
> 
> Her most recent attempt to manipulate him was to tell him she thought she was pregnant. Her period wasn't due for two weeks, but she had all the symptoms. Haha. For any guys, there I no way to have pregnancy symptoms two weeks before a missed period. It's ok, WS didn't know either ad he fell for it and I stopped R.
> 
> ...


Why should you have to get him out of it, dont let him make his mess your mess. Wow the ballz on people.


----------



## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

He knows who has the balls in his family. That's why he went to her!


----------



## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

TheSecretGarden14 said:


> You know I'm actually laughing at this one. Your reading comprehension skills leave a lot to be desired.
> 
> Where do I appear desperate? Is it in my willingness to walk away if he doesn't meet my requirements for R? Except for the very beginning, I have not begged him. I haven't been perfect on the 180, but I don't go running every time he calls either.
> 
> ...


So much irony in this post. You must be really angry to accuse someone of lacking reading comprehension skills, while misinterpreting their words. Nothing in her posts states or implies you are at fault for the affair. She is telling you to stop assigning all of the blame to the woman and excusing your husband. I can get all of the posts that show you have accepted he was tricked by a sociopath and you believe him because he cried.


----------



## Hortensia (Feb 1, 2013)

SG, I read all the thread, and let me tell you, many years ago I had a serial cheater of a boyfriend whom I loved to death and who did the exact same thing your husband is doing: expect me to clean up his mess and "help" him end his affairs. I fell for it once or twice. I wanted to hate the other women because I couldn't hate him. Do you think he stopped? well no, he now knew he will get away with it ! 

Been where you are. You can go ahead and call the OW. End the affair for him, but how do you know it has really ended, and he hasn't called her back afterwards, like "Honey, I had no choice, I had to let my psychotic wife call you and give you her speech, but don't mind her, she is crazy". Yes. Who knows what he is telling HER? Maybe he speaks of YOU like the sociopath, as he speaks of her to you. 

My heart goes out to you. I know how hard it is. But unless he shows REAL remorse, and assume ownership of his sheet, instead of expecting you to clean behind him, this is far from over. 
A remorseful man would just block her; ignore her pleas, threats and scenes. A warning about getting the authorities involved usually is enough to do the trick. If it is not, action will be. There is NO WAY one can't break up with a partner, IF THEY REALLY WANT TO. 

I think inside you, you know everybody is right. It just hurts to admit. There is nothing you can do right now. It is his job to take action, not yours. What is missing here? For you to apologize to him for his affair...


----------



## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

When you stop focusing on her and accept that she could have been anyone, you will be able to go forward.

I dint think a smart womanlike you who wants to be in control and who employs the services of the best professionals would be able to lie to herself forever. 

He knew she was lying to you. He was in collusion. They discussed the lies they would tell you.

Did your professionals mention that?

Argh. No. Because you aren't ready.

I'm bowing out.

I am extremely sorry you are here and I hate what you are going through. Choose your path but be gentle with yourself.


----------



## Calibre1212 (Aug 11, 2014)

It sounds like you have been really traumatized. You are so tightly in control and blame-shifting that you are not seeing the bigger picture. I suppose those are signs of extreme trauma. You are going to need quite a bit of time before you feel able to relax again. You need to journal your feelings and thoughts. Coming here for advice is good but your motive seems confused. 

Mental Health professionals range from poor to excellent. A good one never tells you what you want to hear. They allow you to speak freely and gently guide you through to face your own realities. They do not volunteer their opinion but they zero in when you are deluding yourself; they will re-frame or reality-check you often to see if you understood the words you used. And everyone is right on here re: They do not diagnose "un-present" people. They do intervene third-party in reference to homicidal, suicidal ideation. 

The mere fact that they have not advised you to file a restraining or ex-parte order as yet, is questionable. Based on what you are saying, someone should have Baker Acted/Ex-Parted that woman already...She needs an eval, not to mention your husband.


----------



## TheSecretGarden14 (Feb 7, 2014)

I'm sorry for getting defensive last night. I felt that I wasn't being heard. I felt that some of you think that I am blind to my WS actions and that I am only blaming OW. That's not true. I know that I place more blame on her than the average BS places on OW. That is because I feel that she too owed me her loyalty. I don't know about y'all, but I am deeply loyal to my friends and family. Of course his betrayal hurt the most, but that doesn't let her off the hook for her betrayal. Everyone says that I need to view it as if she was just some other woman, but that's not realistic. She had a choice just like he did. She didn't unknowingly fall for a married man. She went after him fully aware that she would hurt me, she would hurt my children, and she didn't care one single bit. I had done nothing but support her through her own hard times. She played me for fool and did it with out a shred of guilt, empathy, or shame. I honestly don't need a professional to put a name to her disorder. I know that there is something deeply wrong with her. 
As for my husband, he betrayed me in the worst way. I feel no blame for his affair. We had been having problems and neither of us were facing them. We argued, didn't reach resolutions, and then carried on as if nothing happened. I used my rose colored glasses to make myself believe we were fine and I was happy. That's not true. Had I been as honest with myself as he was with himself. It could have been me having the affair. The only thing that stopped me from doing it was the fact that I was pregnant and lack of opportunity. That's the honest truth. I can't say I definitely would have given the opportunity, but I can't say I wouldn't have, either.

I want to save my marriage because I love my husband. I can't ignore the fact that I hurt him as deeply as he did me. It may have been in different ways, but we both were/are in pain. I will not make the mistake of R without full commitment to everything. There will be no half tries. I don't love by halves and won't tolerate half commitment. Proof of change and proof it's over, or I won't even sit down to discuss it. 
I will see your replies, but can't comment until I get home.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

TheSecretGarden14 said:


> I'm sorry for getting defensive last night. I felt that I wasn't being heard. I felt that some of you think that I am blind to my WS actions and that I am only blaming OW.


Actually, you're doing what 95% of all BWs do - blame the woman, not the husband. Which is why we've been trying so hard to show you that doing so is NOT productive; it just prolongs the anger that should be placed on your H's shoulders. Why? Because if he acts all sad and puppy dog, if you aren't staying mad at him, if you're still saying 'well if SHE hadn't done this...', then you are very likely to bring him home when he isn't truly remorseful. Stay mad at him. Trust us. It's the only way he will see the light and realize what HE did.


----------



## Calibre1212 (Aug 11, 2014)

TSG14...Blame her all you want until you decide to stop...It's your choice when to stop. She earned the blame all by her very own self. You may need to do that until you are stronger. You may want to expose her to channel some of that anger by placing it in the court of public opinion. The issue is when you do not blame him too and he is presenting as a wuss beyond any form of belief or respect.


----------



## 2xloser (May 8, 2011)

No, the issue is that by putting the focus on the OW that you did earlier in this thread, it completely removes the possibilty of you and H getting to true R because you would be forgiving and addressing only half the problem.

Even now, as you've revealed a bit more about you holding him accountable, you've still got an unhealthy focus on her and her role in this... because with his affair, she really COULD have been anyone. You even said for yourself there may have been an A if there had been opportunity. You don't yet see the OW as simply convenient, rather than the master manipulator of your unwilling reticent-but-good husband. The fact that she was close to you snd in your circle makes HIS infidelity even that much worse. You don't yet completely see this for what it is, at least in the portrayal in this thread. I hope you do, and soon; false R is pretty painful almost always down the road.

and fwiw, the advice people have given in this thread is based on a lot of combined, painful experience. I, too, share several opinions made within this thread: 

- your team is doing you a disservice, feeding your need to find a villain outside the marriage, where dark external forces are conspiring to ruin the good-hearted man. You'd do well to find a new one, but I am sure you won't, and of course that is your prerogative. But they need to have focused on HIM and what drove HIM to take HIS actions, have HIM take accountabilty for what HE has done... to YOU. They just seem to have put your energy and focus in the completely wrong spot, looking for 'an answer' to very difficult and painful questions ("why?"). In my admittedly very-limited experience trying both, this happen more often in faith-based therapies than in those that leave faith out of the 'scientific' discussion. 

- I know you are currently separated, but if D is not on table as i believe has been suggested here, then his consequences may nit be real and strong enough. I'm not saying D, and if you read any of my history I strongly endorse R *when both spouses are 100% committed to it*, even though it wasn't for me. But I also feel strongly that taking actions toward D can help catapult a WS toward making changes -- if they're going to make them -- or to declaring that they aren't going to change. moving D actions forward can be slowed down, accelerated, or pulled back, but shows real consequence.

- you posted a lot about "gaslighting", and I kind of wondered if there was some additional/other definition from your team? It almost read like they had some view of magic dust being sprinkled on a person who could then not help themselves... rather than simply conveying a very different version of the truth?

- not much has been said about you exposing the Affair? this can a tool to help squash any remaining burning embers, if you haven't done so. It also serves notice to your WS that you mean business.

- If this OW has actually expressed verbal threats, are you and your kids safe? his would be my #1, 2, and 3 priorities if there was even a hint of such a matter. Full-bore I would talk to a lawyer, and take all actions to keep her away. And ensure your WH is fully informed of all such activity...

- ...because him even suggesting you do his dirty work to "help end the A" most esepcially in light of this physical threat, is as low as it goes, imho. A total, complete non-starter, not even discuss-able. 

I know that your emotions are high and this is painfully difficult, but I can promise you the majority of the people here are not your enemy, want very much to protect you where they see potential to not learn from other/our mistakes. You will get many kinds of advice, but when you see a pattern to responses, you'd be wise to heed them in finding the validity of why they are sayng such things, ESPECIALLy when it is rubbing you the wrong way because that is usually when we need to hesr it the most.

Good luck and I am sorry you're here.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

TheSecretGarden14 said:


> I can't ignore the fact that I hurt him as deeply as he did me.


How so? You should provide examples. There are a few things that are worse, but not many and fewer still that are equal.


----------



## ne9907 (Jul 17, 2013)

Stay out of it. Cut ties with him, as much as possible, since you have children. 
Do not let their drama draw you in. Both of them are toxic!


----------



## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

TheSecretGarden14 said:


> Long story short. We separated, he admitted to EA and PA with best friend and neighbor, and we live apart, but have been attempting R. The OW is a complete sociopath, she gaslighted me to get to him, has crazy pants pinterest boards- one dedicated to my 10 month old that she started when we found out she was a girl and another dedicated to the wedding she is planning for her and WS, she has him in a gaslight fog that he is trying to break free of, and so much more crazy. Here is my R thread if you want more info: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/reconciliation/218730-hot-cold-reconciliation.html
> 
> Her most recent attempt to manipulate him was to tell him she thought she was pregnant. Her period wasn't due for two weeks, but she had all the symptoms. Haha. For any guys, there I no way to have pregnancy symptoms two weeks before a missed period. It's ok, WS didn't know either ad he fell for it and I stopped R.
> 
> ...


Might be worth looking at CheaterVille :: Don't Be the Last to Know.


----------



## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Yes, your ex-friend played you. Big time. But she was not really the one who owed you loyalty. It certainly would have been nice had she shown you the same loyalty you showed her but unfortunately that's not usually how life goes. 

So work on letting go of the feelings about her. It doesn't damage her -- just you. The best revenge is to to dismiss her as not even worth a moment's notice. It's not easy (I know from experience) but it's liberating when you do.


----------



## TheSecretGarden14 (Feb 7, 2014)

turnera said:


> Actually, you're doing what 95% of all BWs do - blame the woman, not the husband. Which is why we've been trying so hard to show you that doing so is NOT productive; it just prolongs the anger that should be placed on your H's shoulders. Why? Because if he acts all sad and puppy dog, if you aren't staying mad at him, if you're still saying 'well if SHE hadn't done this...', then you are very likely to bring him home when he isn't truly remorseful. Stay mad at him. Trust us. It's the only way he will see the light and realize what HE did.


I had a lot of anger in the beginning. I am usually quite honest with people, too honest, at times. I have the tendency to say exactly what I'm thinking, but I'm kind when I do. For the first three months, I was down right mean to him, as he deserved. I was bitter for a while and I didn't hold back. I said things on purpose to hurt him. I was verbally abusive to him at times. After a huge fight back in May, I sat on my parents porch and, for the first time in many years, cried out to God. I asked why I deserved this, what had I done that was so bad, why was I being punished? Then, something I had heard so many times in my childhood, and yet hadn't put it to use in my adult life, popped into my head. Give it to God. Let God carry your burdens. I changed my angry cries to pleas for help. Then, my pleas for help to prayers. I gave myself and all my heartache and burdens to God that night. I fell asleep before midnight and slept without waking for the first time since the separation that night. No one has to believe me, but when I started over with God, my anger at him faded, but didn't disappear. I think my anger with her is still so strong because she uses her "belief" in God to actually justify what she has done. She doesn't believe she has done anything wrong and that God wants them together. WS has at least acknowledged what he did was wrong and he was sorry he hurt me. He just felt that our marriage was over and she was who he was supposed to be with, then he was confused, and now he says he doesn't want to be with her. I'm still angry and they both incite my anger often. I just handle it better.


----------



## TheSecretGarden14 (Feb 7, 2014)

2closer- I'll try to answer as much as I can.

I know everyone doesn't agree with my team, but I am sticking with faith based counseling. They did not technically diagnose her as they are not her doctors. They explained to us that they used our separate interviews and the physical proof of her lies and five other counts of adultery that I obtained from her spouse to build a character profile. She fit every criteria for antisocial personality disorder with a high tendency toward narcissism. Also known as, narcissistic sociopath. We know she isn't diagnosed, but the odds of her being misunderstood are slim to none. Her BS has been granted full custody of her child and she was ordered to have a psych eval. I don't imagine she will pass.

As for the gaslighting, it isn't like a magic dust. A lot of psych blogs and internet resources incorrectly describe it. True gaslighting is when a sociopath uses many manipulation tactics to make the person question their own reality, decisions, memory, and thoughts.
By the end of it, the target is completely reliant on the sociopath to form their reality. Targets go against their own values, family, and even religion or lack of religion, if it is different than the sociopath's. Cult leaders are usually sociopaths instead of psychopaths. They just know how to get people to drink the koolaid.

Divorce is in process. I have not had any physical proof of PA that can be used in court and here they require proof and will not accept admission of guilt or electronic communications. Her BS has surveillance footage and says he will give it to me as soon as his D is final. He has to have it edited to remove the other five guys before he can give it to me.

I took the "go big or go home" approach to exposure. I sent a message to every one of their contacts on FB before they blocked me, I called her husband and mother, called his parents, and I printed out copies of their text messages from our phone company and put them on every windshield of the church she attended the first time he went with her. He was stupid enough to leave her full name on the contact info. 

She has made thinly veiled threats. She believes God is working in her favor and she will get what she wants. She only lashes out violently with WS. You have to have proof to get a RO. She is very careful.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Oh, no wonder you call it a team. it is a church thing. No professional therapist would talk that way or act that way.


----------



## TheSecretGarden14 (Feb 7, 2014)

turnera said:


> Oh, no wonder you call it a team. it is a church thing. No professional therapist would talk that way or act that way.


No, it isn't through church. I live in the south. The bible belt if you will. There are more faith based private practices here than non faith based. There are 5 large colleges within 100 miles and only 1 isn't a private Christian college. My therapist is a licensed mental health professional. He owns the practice and has a psychiatrist and a minister on staff. The minister handles some of the marriage counseling and the psychiatrist helps the patients that need medicinal intervention.


----------



## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

turnera said:


> Oh, no wonder you call it a team. it is a church thing. No professional therapist would talk that way or act that way.


It's extremely unethical if a professional is even attempting a diagnosis on a non patient and also basing this diagnoses through only external sources.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

> As for the gaslighting, it isn't like a magic dust. A lot of psych blogs and internet resources incorrectly describe it. True gaslighting is when a sociopath uses many manipulation tactics to make the person question their own reality, decisions, memory, and thoughts.
> By the end of it, the target is completely reliant on the sociopath to form their reality. Targets go against their own values, family, and even religion or lack of religion, if it is different than the sociopath's. Cult leaders are usually sociopaths instead of psychopaths. They just know how to get people to drink the koolaid.


You've done way too much reading. This is an erroneous conclusion to draw based on blogs and 7 months of experience with your team. You should really focus on you at this point. Stop trying to convince everyone that they have the definitions of sociopath, psychopath and gas-lighting wrong. He's wrong and made a choice. She is wrong and made choices. Being a serial cheater doesn't mean she forced or manipulated your husband into anything. 

If you want to save your marriage, you'll have to accept his equal responsibility in the affair.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

How are things standing, SG? What is he doing to earn you back?


----------



## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

I dont understand the editing out the other 5 guys thing. What's the reason for delay?


----------



## TheSecretGarden14 (Feb 7, 2014)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> You've done way too much reading. This is an erroneous conclusion to draw based on blogs and 7 months of experience with your team. You should really focus on you at this point. Stop trying to convince everyone that they have the definitions of sociopath, psychopath and gas-lighting wrong. He's wrong and made a choice. She is wrong and made choices. Being a serial cheater doesn't mean she forced or manipulated your husband into anything.
> 
> If you want to save your marriage, you'll have to accept his equal responsibility in the affair.


I don't read the blogs. I have been reading the books of Tracy Stern. She is the psychologist that actually coined and defined the phrase "Gaslight Effect". She is the leading expert on the subject of gaslighting.
Stern defines gaslighting as: “Gaslighting is the systematic attempt by one person to erode another's reality, by telling them that what they are experiencing isn't so and, the gradual giving up on the part of the other person.”


----------



## TheSecretGarden14 (Feb 7, 2014)

clipclop2 said:


> I dont understand the editing out the other 5 guys thing. What's the reason for delay?


Her BS has had a PI for two years. He kept trying to R and she kept cheating. Because of state laws, every time they spent even one night together, he effectively "forgave" her adultery and had to get more evidence. This left him with a compilation of videos of all six men over the last two years. The PI wants me to pay 200 dollars for a disk with only the clip of WS. The other BS would have to pay for a second copy as well. His attorney has his only copy for safe keeping. He intends on copying WS clip for me as soon as his D is final this month.


----------



## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

the term comes from the movie.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TheSecretGarden14 (Feb 7, 2014)

clipclop2 said:


> the term comes from the movie.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I am aware that she got the term gaslight from the movie. However, she coined "gaslight effect" to describe the common symptoms and stories of her clients that were dealing with emotionally abusive relationships, which were exclusively with people with borderline personality disorder, antisocial personality disorders, and other mental disorders. Specifically, their feelings of distorted reality, feeling as if they no longer knew who they were before the relationship, and confusion over actions and words that were not how they normally believe or act.


----------



## 2xloser (May 8, 2011)

I think philly's point is not to debate gaslighting, origination, term coining, or the presence of it, but rather to suggest as I and others have about your WH's *primary* role in conducting his affair , because THAT is what you've got to solve for to get a successful R. He may have been victimized, but his role in the A was first and foremost not having boundaries that need to be present in a successful marriage.

As long as this remains someone else's fault, sway, power, psychopathic, sociopathic, or otherwise just dirty, he and you sre not solving the core question of why he was swayable and open to an affair. 

I'm sorry but it still is reading like YOU are being gaslighted, and frankly supported by your team, that this evildoer pounced upon your powerless husband who could not possibly have withstood her pressure to have sex with him, repeatedly, then lie about it, hide it, and even continue siding with her. 

Yes, that's stated as extreme just to make a point, and I don't think that's what you believe. But I think it's sort of how you are conveying the situation here to many of us, and it suggests a dangerous-to-you rugsweeping direction we're cautioning you about. It just does not feel like you are centered on the right thing -- him and you, instead of ANY other influences.


----------



## dormant (Apr 3, 2012)

OP. you are not responsible to end his PA. He is!


----------



## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

TheSecretGarden14 said:


> I don't read the blogs.


Well, your post implied you do.


> A lot of psych blogs and internet resources incorrectly describe it.


So, a money making book says the blogs have it wrong? You just reinforced my point. You need to stop reading, just because you like a particular author doesn't mean they are correct.You are hyper defensive. You came here for help. I'm not going to prove, with citations and proper research that she didn't coin the term "gas-lighting," she just possibly added the term effect. Nor did she define a term that existed before she was born.

2xloser, hate typing that out, will say it for me:


> As long as this remains someone else's fault, sway, power, psychopathic, sociopathic, or otherwise just dirty, he and you are not solving the core question of why he was swayable and open to an affair.


You can throw every book, team, psychologist, excuse, blame-shift, therapist or defense tactic at me to no avail. If you do not correct what is stated in the above quote, you'll find out the hard way, go read a thread by the poster ACOA, how wrong you are.


----------



## TheSecretGarden14 (Feb 7, 2014)

Ok, let me make a statement for the record. I realize I have been unclear on how I feel about WS's actions since we have all focused on the gaslighting and how I feel about OW. To be fair, I was only answering the questions as y'all asked them and I didn't clearly state what I thought of his part. So, here it is:

First, WS made the choice to confide intimate details of our life to OW, that even I didn't share with her as my best friend. That's the first time he broke his loyalty and no matter how much she may have convinced him she was only talking to him as a friend, he made the choice on his own to talk to her about our problems instead of me.
Second, WS made the choice to enter into an EA involving emotions and sexual tension all on his own. He then chose to turn it into a PA all on his own. 
I have never thought that she MADE him do any of those things. They were his choices and its his fault that he didn't give MC a proper try the first time and chose instead to rugsweep and have an EA for his emotional needs.
I believe her manipulations started after it became a PA. I believe she took advantage of our crumbling marriage and waited like vulture. She has tried her best to keep him from coming back with many different manipulations.


----------



## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

I'm sticking with my answer that your husband has options if he wants to end the relationship with her. If he's not willing to put in the effort to break free, there's nothing of your marriage left to fix. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Well, from what you have written, it appears he is manipulating both of you to have his cake and eat it too.


----------



## TheSecretGarden14 (Feb 7, 2014)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Well, from what you have written, it appears he is manipulating both of you to have his cake and eat it too.


I think he was for a little while. I stupidly started our sexual relationship back up in May after months of very limited contact. We barely spoke unless it involved the kids or divorce from mid-March to end of May. We would fight about the divorce becuase my attorney said that while they won't accept self-admission only, the court would accept sworn statements from OW and WS as proof. It had to be both. He would protect her and say she wasn't signing. It would piss me off. I wanted out of the freaking mess. I wanted to be free to find my own happiness without breaking my vows, which I couldn't do and still keep the last shreds of my dignity. That's just who I am. No matter his choice, I couldn't commit that sin. 

At the time of starting back sexually, I honestly just had needs and wasn't looking to R. I was still angry, but we never had a problem with lack of passion. I thought why not? I can have my needs met and not break my vows. There is no way I can continue to be celibate for the next nine months. He is the one that brought up R. He wanted to start spending time together for more than sex, he asked me to come to his church, and he repaired the rift between him and his family. We continued to rug sweep and he continued to use her for his emotional needs instead of talking to me. Every time we would gain some nonsexual intimacy, he would back off and say he wanted to be with her. I would let him go and resume no contact. Each time he came back, he would show me the messages where he broke it off, her text messages of how it would never be over, and tell me all the manipulative and weird things she had done. Unless it was some huge diabolical mind game on his part with fabricated proof, then I have to believe what I saw for myself.

July fourth, he was supposed to come be with me and the kids. He sent me text that said, "as of today, OW and I are officially dating."
Three weeks of limited contact later and he asked me if I could seriously forgive him, said he was sorry for all the horrible things he had done.
That's when I told him we could try R for real if he got her out of his life, went to church and counseling and gave me full transparency, but that we would not resume sexual intimacy until I felt safe.
He did all of this. There was a three day slip three weeks later when he came back he told me about her violence and how he didn't understand why he kept getting drawn back in when he didn't even like her and felt like he was going crazy and on drugs when he was with her. Then she told him two weeks later she might be pregnant. There was more details, but this already turning into one of the hated soliloquies.
The point- he may have been cake eating in the beginning, but he hasn't been getting anything out of me since July first except for patience.


----------



## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

Have to wonder how you could possibly forgive since he is still unable to give her up on his own.

He has to do all the heavy lifting. If he isn't moving mountains for you he is just another ***** beta.


----------



## TheSecretGarden14 (Feb 7, 2014)

Update:
So, we haven't had much contact in three weeks, except for last weekend when he asked for my help. He hasn't spoken to me since I told him to do himself. 
Then tonight after he talked to our son, he asked me to please check my email. I checked it as soon as he hung up and there was an email from him. It contained a typed message and two attachments.
The message read:
"I'm sorry and I know that's not enough. I'll never be able to do enough to make it up you. I don't expect you to take me back. I do hope one day you will be able to forgive me. I hope I can forgive myself. I can't stand to look at myself most days because I feel so much shame and remorse for all the pain I caused you and the kids. I truly was ready to start reconciling before she told me she was pregnant. What I haven't told you is that when I went back those three days, she had threatened to send pictures she had secretly taken to my boss, my parents, and you. I went back to get the pictures. I did not have sex with her at that time. When she told me she might be pregnant she said she hadn't had her period in two months, which would have been the end of June and you know I was with her for three weeks in July. My heart broke when she told me. 
I knew back in May that I still loved you, but I also knew I didn't deserve you. I wanted so bad to make things right and I was not with her sexually from that stupid drunk night until July fourth. I was starting to feel happy again and yet I was still too racked with quilt to talk about it with you. Instead I decided that I wasn't good enough for you and I deserved to be with OW becuase she was a pathetic POS like me. I quickly realized how different we were though and I couldn't take her lack of guilt and empathy.
I realize that you are the woman God intended me to be with and he couldn't have given me a more perfect (for me) wife. It is killing me that I have been so stupid and now I may be too late. I am so sorry for focusing on the bad, without seeing all the amazing, for so long that I was able to make such a horrible decision. I really want to give you all I have and create a Christ centered marriage with you. I feel God is pushing me toward this and always has been. I was just too stubborn to believe it. I need to deal with some negative feelings about myself and I am going to give my life to God. I will put our marriage in your hands until we are both ready to put it in God's. I'm ready, but I put your out in the attachments. Please check both. If you somehow incredibly decide to work on things. I will do whatever it takes. I have added the timeline of everything that happened with OW and all of my email and social media passwords at the bottom."

One attachment was a video that started with her signing her name to a piece of paper. She said here is your proof, get your divorce, and leave us alone. Then she hand the paper to WS and he starts talking but keeps the camera on her. He tells her that there is no them and that he had her write and sign the statement to give me my freedom not to get his own. He tells her it's over, to never contact him again. Told her if she came near him or called him he would file an RO and he had enough proof to have a cause. She cursed at him and hit him. There was a lot more said, but that's the gist.
The second attachment was scanned copies of written statements admitting their guilt to adultery.
I checked the passwords and I was able to access all of his stuff including his online billing for his phone.

I'm floored right now. I have wanted either option for so long. Now, I have both and I need to think and pray long and hard about this.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

If it's legit divorce him, as a consequence and then start over with him if that's what you want. Your current marriage is dead and even if you reconcile it is a new beginning anyway.


----------



## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

I don't know what to say. I don't trust your husband.

I'd say divorce him and see what happens.

If he ever got a restraining order against her I would be surprised.

So yeah, divorce him and wait.


----------



## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

By the way, deciding to sleep with her because she was a pathetic piece of sit like him is rubbish. He did it because he wanted sex. He couldn't control his desire.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Tell him that's a great start. Tell him you're continuing the divorce, it should take about 6-8 months and in that time, if he's attended weekly therapy the entire time and biweekly MC with you, never contacts or touches another woman in that time, and goes with you to apologize to your parents and his (or some representative of each family), you may be willing to call off the divorce.


----------



## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

SecretGarden

Your husband has said very touching words. However, in your situation you have to demand ACTIONS because actions will tell the truth. Your husband may very well want to do everything that he said. *You can’t chance going on his words and intentions!!! *

You are weak yourself and cannot lift your husband up out of his mess he created. I know you feel guilty for treating him bad in the past but *what matters now is that he prove his words by ACTIONS for a long time*


I know that many southern Christians believe that if a person says that they are going to give their life to God that there is great hope in rehabilitation. That is true IMO but remember that God will never fail to do His part but mankind fails often. What I have seen work is for both marriage partners to stop looking to each other for this kind of healing but to *diligently seek God with 100% of their whole being.* You are a person that puts a lot of trust in scriptures so here is one that makes it clears


*Hebrews 11:6 *
6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him



> *SecretGarden’s Husband’s words*
> I need to deal with some negative feelings about myself and I am going to give my life to God.



Your husband is very weak and has negative feeling about himself and has admitted it. He is a very seriously damaged man and is only going to get a lot better if he does what he said above. It will mostly depend on him doing his part so that is what you have to have proven to you for a long time. I would suggest that you concentrate on you building yourself up with all sources including your God. *You are too weak to handle your damaged emotions and then carry your husband*.

*James 2:14-26*
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works?
17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

*God will always do His part but He is not going to do everything, the person has to do their part.*


----------



## TheSecretGarden14 (Feb 7, 2014)

Philly & Clipclop: I thought about going through with the divorce and starting over, but the cost is ridiculous and only serves to punish both of us. The assets have already been split and I already have full legal custody. So, we would basically pay for a paper divorce with the intention of getting remarried. 

Tunera: Your advice I my essential plan. Divorce by fault of adultery only takes 91 days here. Our one year separation will be over 2/10 (a year and a day). So I plan to not do anything to restart the clock. I have told him he has until then to show me some action. I have agreed to spend time with him, but no extra family time other than the upcoming holidays. I don't want our oldest to get his hopes up if things don't workout. He has agreed to go back to IC and he said he would make our first MC appointment next week. He already gave me all of his passwords. Last night we had a long talk. We went over his timeline and he allowed me to ask all the questions I felt I needed to, he took responsibility for all of it, and accepted my anger and hurt without excuses or deflection. He says he realizes it will take a lot of time to rebuild trust and for me to get past the EA and PA. He understands I may never fully "get over it". 

Mr. Blunt: thank you for the Christian perspective. Your advice also helped me with my decision above. We talked about his negative feelings and his beliefs. He says he believes with all his heart that Jesus is the savior and that becuase he is, God will forgive him. The problem he is having is that he doesn't forgive himself yet, and he doesn't want to be like OW, who says she feels no remorse because her sins are forgiven each day. Basically, he hasn't given his life to the Lord to punish himself by not accepting God's grace. He said he needs to address this in counseling and with his pastor. I passed the scriptures you provided on to him.

Thank you, everyone, for walking me through this. If I had went through with the call, I wouldn't ever know if he truly wanted her out of his life or if he used me as an excuse to keep her on the line while seeing how things went with us.


----------



## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

How canyou know if you have all of his passwords? You'd have to be able to determine if he gave you ask of his accounts and you can't know that.

You have to be able to monitor his internet access.

Stay strong. I hope he gives himself over because falling to do that is part of what makes him weak. It is part of the lame excuse her had for having sex with her. Be very wary of people who feel sorry for themselves. They are self focused.


----------



## TheSecretGarden14 (Feb 7, 2014)

clipclop2 said:


> How canyou know if you have all of his passwords? You'd have to be able to determine if he gave you ask of his accounts and you can't know that.
> 
> You have to be able to monitor his internet access.
> 
> Stay strong. I hope he gives himself over because falling to do that is part of what makes him weak. It is part of the lame excuse her had for having sex with her. Be very wary of people who feel sorry for themselves. They are self focused.


We don't live together and I'm not taking that step until I get some results. I'm not giving up everything I've worked for in order to babysit him, just to end up back at square one. I do know his only access to the internet is his two phones. He chose to keep the laptop and it broke. He has a work phone that he gave me the access code to. We work for the same company in the same department, but in different fields that work closely. So, he isn't breaking any confidentiality by giving me access. He also gave me access to his personal phone and his online billing. I just don't see him going to great lengths hide anything. Since D-Day, he hasn't tried to hide any of it. Even before when we were trying he showed me every text and every email up until the day she played each of her wild cards.


----------



## commonsenseisn't (Aug 13, 2014)

Well, this is quite a development! A cheater who is starting to see the light. Good. However, be very wary. 

So far, he's talking the talk, but I'd wait a good little while and see if he walks the walk. I believe a marriage is worth saving or renewing if at all possible. 

I believe in repentance, forgiveness and redemption. I also believe that faith without works is dead. Don't fall for empty feel-good words and the popular psycho babble of how "reborn" he is without putting in the genuine efforts that enable real reform.

If you feel inclined to reconcile with him I hope you will map out all that you will require and make it crystal clear it's all non negotiable. Also, don't forget to throw him a little encouragement now and then. 

Also, don't forget that if he has wounded you too badly you have every right, without moral or Christian obligation to divorce him and move on. You should take it as a huge red flag if he uses any Christian anti-divorce rhetoric to coerce you into reconciliation with him. 

Good luck.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

> The assets have already been split and I already have full legal custody. So, we would basically pay for a paper divorce with the intention of getting remarried.


Then it isn't expensive. If you've agreed to everything already you file without lawyers. So, the truth is you don't want to divorce and that's fine.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

The benefit of following through with the divorce is that, for you to be willing to marry him again, he must agreed to a prenuptial in which he agrees that if he ever is caught cheating again he walks away with NOTHING.


----------



## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

The financial downside is income tax.

But I agree that the divorce should happen. It also lets them both know they can survive a divorce. It would be interesting if one he in particular learned he could survive it if he would want to remarry. 

Divorce tells you if you are together because you want to be rather than you did so from fear of divorce. That's for both of you.


----------



## TheSecretGarden14 (Feb 7, 2014)

I am a very logical thinking person and divorce to make a point, only to remarry the same person makes, no logical sense. No, I do not want a divorce. Will I divorce if it is necessary? Yes. 
In our state you can only file your own divorce if there or no children involved. Even if I already have legal custody, that as to be reviewed at time of divorce. A family plan must be filed and the judge will make changes as necessary. For example, in my current custody papers, it states he may not leave the county with the kids period. That will need to be changed to "without my permission", if the divorce is finalized. There are many such clauses that were made due to the situation that would need to be altered. They will not change my full legal custody, amount of child support, or the visitation schedule, just those restraining orders that would no longer apply.
He has agreed to my terms. So far there has been zero contact, whereas before there was always a little contact, due to the financial issue and her clinginess. We have had multiple long, open talks about our issues as well as the PA. He has IC tomorrow that he set up himself. He also set up a meeting with the pastor at the church he has been attending for both of us. He is allowing me to choose the MC and I am setting that up tomorrow with a different counselor than the one we used before. This one does not work with the practice we've been using at all. I've set my boundaries and I'm going to see if we can rebuild.


----------



## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

Those are minor changes to the agreement. Boilerplate stuff.

you aren't understanding the reason for the divorce if you think that there's no sense in getting divorced if you intend to get remarried again. The fact that you intend to get remarried again before you cross that bridge is part of the problem. 

as soon as he makes it to that moment where the clock starts again is where the risk, and he will begin acting out again .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

TheSecretGarden14 said:


> I am a very logical thinking person and divorce to make a point, only to remarry the same person makes, no logical sense..


No offense, but the most logical people don't see how their logic fails during the repercussions of an affair. You may be the most logical person in the world, but if you went through this thread, in a month or two, you'd see many of your responses are exactly the opposite of logical. Logic goes hand and hand with rational. If one is off the other fails as well. You've been irrational a few times, which has thrown of your normally logical processing of information.


----------



## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

And thats ok and to be expected. Don't get upset at what Philly pointed our, ok?


----------



## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Of course, I have yet to see anyone act rational or logical in this type of mess. Even the people who are good at compartmentalizing do illogical things. Its' not an insult at all, it's more of a slow down, think things through and take a rational look at everything.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

TheSecretGarden14 said:


> I am a very logical thinking person and divorce to make a point, only to remarry the same person makes, no logical sense.


Actually, it makes a ton of sense. It's a hard psychological barrier that you are presenting to your WH that says you want him back but you are no fool and you will not be trifled with, and if you allow him back, it will be under YOUR conditions (using the prenuptial) and it will be a clean break from the marriage that hurt you. It's a way for you two to agree to a new start and carry that underlying subconscious 'fresh start' into the new marriage. Subconsciously, it's way too easy for him to just get let back into the old marriage and SAY he's going to be different, but you just let him back anyway, no matter what he did. He won't have the safeguards in place like he would in a new marriage with a new ceremony and new meaning.


----------



## TheSecretGarden14 (Feb 7, 2014)

I do get the significance of divorce and starting anew. The old marriage and old life is dead. We have to start all over. My thoughts, though, are that we could accomplish the same "marriage reset" by not moving back in together until relationship is firmly reestablished with new rules and new foundation, getting a post-nuptial agreement, and reaffirming our marriage with new vows. I already brought this up to him during one of long talks. I told him our old vows hold no significance and our old rings represent his infidelity and both of us failing to love each other as we should have. I told him if we are able to build a new foundation and a truly fulfilling Christ-centered marriage, then we will have a new ceremony with new vows, new rings, and in front of our friends and family, before we move back in together. I don't need a second wedding. A quick backyard ceremony will do. 
We actually eloped when we married because we were broke and had a baby on the way. We were already engaged and our planned baby happened a bit sooner than planned. No one expects to get it right the first try, right? :slap:Anyway, we changed our big fall outdoor wedding to a private summer chapel wedding in the mountains. Neither of us saw it as a covenant with God, since neither were active Christians. We saw it as a promise to each other and used contemporary vows instead of the traditional ones. If we accomplish what we both want, there absolutely has to be new vows before God.


----------



## commonsenseisn't (Aug 13, 2014)

You need to understand that "getting divorced makes no sense if we're just going to get married again" equates with "getting away with it" in your husbands mind. Take it from a guy, that's how guys perceive the world. 

I don't see any real consequences here that will promote the soul stretching your husband needs to overcome adultery. Make no mistake, you are dooming yourselves to a repeat tragedy. And that, my friend, is a prophesy. 

Curious, and with no judging... Does your religious doctrine prohibit divorce? 

Question for you to really ponder... is your husband terrified he has lost you? If not, he is not ready for your gift of forgiveness and reconciliation. Best wishes.


----------



## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

how is not living together punishment? Other than financial?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TheSecretGarden14 (Feb 7, 2014)

You all were right. I'm an idiot. I got screwed with trickle truth. He wasn't sincere. We did wonderfully and he seemed to be doing everything right, doing all the heavy lifting. Was giving full transparency and communication was great. He answered every question and showed remorse.
Then, last Tuesday he said he wanted to talk to OW. We got into it and he said he needed space. He claimed he still hadn't talked to her. Then, I saw them together in his truck. I drove right by them.I confronted him yesterday and he told me he loved her and was moving in with her.
I spent the rest of the day flucking sh¡t up. I immediately spoke to my attorney and relayed it to him that due to the fact that I currently have full custody, I was well within my rights to deny his overnights if he moved in with her. He has not complied with the six IC appointments the order called for and that coupled with his recent poor choices I was making other arrangements for after school care. I made sure he could no longer pick the kids up from school or daycare without my written consent.
I went to her ExH work and told him of their plan. He let me know that their D was final last Monday. Coincidence? Absolutely not.
WS spoke to his mom and told her he was fine not seeing his kids as long as he had OW because it would only be temporary. He planned to fight me for full custody based on two recorded conversations. 1) I flipped my lid on him in front of our son when he violated the order and took the kids to the zoo with OW back in July. My son asked when he got home if OW was going to be his new mommy. 2) I flipped on him again in front of the kids when he told me OW might be pregnant.
I told him to file. Submit the evidence. Not a judge in the world would fault me for flipping in either situation and all they did was prove his adultery and prove he violated the existing order. Told him to try me and welcome to the bible belt.
I then rounded up my witnesses. Her exH, three of her other 5 APs, his parents, and a couple of our friends that he involved by taking OW and our kids to their house over the summer. I also wrote out emails to her boss and parents, but I ran out of steam and didn't send them.
Her exH called me last night and thanked me for the heads up. He told her last night as long as she was a professional home-wrecker and involved with WS or any married man she wouldn't see her son.

I received a text this afternoon from AS saying he needed to tell me the whole truth. We spoke and he said he and OW had been inappropriate since last July when I was half way through my pregnancy. She was his THIRD EA and first PA. He had EAs with the ex before me and another married friend of his that he carried over from his first marriage. Unbeknownst to me, I was technically the OW in the beginning of our relationship. He said he was still with his ex at least a month into our relationship and then had the EA with her a year later.
He said I was the fourth woman he bought a car with and then dumped them with the payment knowing they couldn't afford it alone. Admitted he always pushes his responsibilities on other people. He said his anger problem was at a point that when things didn't go his way he contemplated suicide. He said when he took the cheap shot at his sister about her attempted suicide it was becuase he was jealous that she had at least had the balls to try and he didn't.
I left it at get some freaking help please and I'll see you at the D.


----------



## TheSecretGarden14 (Feb 7, 2014)

And I let him know that the reason OW called it off was because she chose her kid while he chose her. He didn't know. The look on his face was worth it.
I think he may have learned that I grew a pair and not to F with me anymore.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I'm so sorry. But you have done everything right. I think you dodged a bullet.


----------



## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

Oh sweetheart I'm so sorry. 

I am so very sorry .

remember that his threats are empty. He may try to use them but its only in economic ploy. he is as wrong as wrong could ever be. and you are a good woman. 

there's something about karma. I think it likes a particular equilibrium in the universe. I can just take a little while to get there.

In the meantime you take good care of yourself. Eat well sleep exercise and share with people. Don't cut yourself off from your support. you didn't do anything wrong .


----------



## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

I'd rather be wrong and eat crow than watch a marriage fall apart. Your scorched earth was perfect, this is what lies get you.


----------



## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

So after her ex said no more seeing her son she dumped your husband and then all of his confessions came out?

If so be careful. His confessions could be to try to make you feel sorry for him. It is twisted but people like that know that good hearted people like you want to fix and mother and help. He tells you how awful he was and he only seems more sad and pathetic and in need of fixing instead of sad and pathetic and in need of whatever the moral equivalent of jail is.

Be careful please.


----------



## dignityhonorpride (Jan 2, 2014)

I'm so sorry, TSG. what an awful person he is. You gave him so many chances - many, many more than a lot of people would've. None of this is your fault. 

I would strongly advise you not to take any calls or open any emails from him that are not related to the kid(s). Cut him off and out of your life.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TheSecretGarden14 (Feb 7, 2014)

clipclop2 said:


> So after her ex said no more seeing her son she dumped your husband and then all of his confessions came out?
> 
> If so be careful. His confessions could be to try to make you feel sorry for him. It is twisted but people like that know that good hearted people like you want to fix and mother and help. He tells you how awful he was and he only seems more sad and pathetic and in need of fixing instead of sad and pathetic and in need of whatever the moral equivalent of jail is.
> 
> Be careful please.


This was my exact thoughts. He SAID it was because he finally, truly gave his life to God and needed to confess everything and give me closure. BUT...I've heard all of that before. I'm not falling for it again. If he truly did and truly does get help and make changes, I'm still divorcing him. This marriage is dead. I'm not holding out on hope that after D we can remarry. At this point, I'm done. D.O.N.E. Done.


----------



## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

That's my read of him. Remember when I told you to be careful of people who feel sorry for themselves.

Can you go dark on him? It will help you not to talk to him.


----------



## TheSecretGarden14 (Feb 7, 2014)

I can't go 100% dark because of the kids, but I told his family about his suicidal thoughts so I'm going as dark as I can.


----------



## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

And remember to dial 911 if he makes any suicidal threats.


----------



## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> *By TheSecretGarden*
> 
> This was my exact thoughts. He SAID it was because he finally, truly gave his life to God and needed to confess everything and give me closure. BUT...I've heard all of that before. I'm not falling for it again. If he truly did and truly does get help and make changes, I'm still divorcing him. This marriage is dead. I'm not holding out on hope that after D we can remarry. At this point, I'm done. D.O.N.E. Done.



*Words and plans of wisdom!*

Your husband is a complete wreck! Concentrate on you and your children only and use your free will choice to put him out of your thoughts immediately. Your marriage is history and he is history for you.

You can only be responsible for you and your children. Your children need you more than ever now that their father is so very troubling


----------



## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

TheSecretGarden14 said:


> This was my exact thoughts. He SAID it was because he finally, truly gave his life to God and needed to confess everything and give me closure. BUT...I've heard all of that before. I'm not falling for it again. If he truly did and truly does get help and make changes, I'm still divorcing him. This marriage is dead. I'm not holding out on hope that after D we can remarry. At this point, I'm done. D.O.N.E. Done.


Swear/Give to God is like swearing on kids and mom's grave to me, which is a load of crap.


----------

