# How is a man different with his AP?



## Lovingwife71 (Mar 28, 2018)

If this has been addressed already I haven't seen it, so I apologize if so. I have read several threads and posts on TAM about how when a woman cheats she will do sexual things with her AP that she wouldn't normally do with her significant other, such as oral or anal sex. I am wondering if the same is true for men and what those things might be. It doesn't even have to be sexual things. What things might a man do with or for his AP that he normally wouldn't do with or for his significant other? For example, is he more affectionate, more passionate, does he care more about her pleasure, does he buy her more expensive gifts, does he take her to fancier places?


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## 342693 (Mar 2, 2020)

I'm only speculating since I've never committed adultery. But I would imagine men don't do much different sexually, but you're probably spot on about the woman doing stuff they typically wouldn't in order to impress the guy. I imagine the guy would flatter her more, shower her with gifts, trips, meals, etc...to keep the gravy train running. 

Like they say, men have sex, women make love. I think that's safe to say for affairs too.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

The wife is won, and has been made.
The notch on the bedpost is old.

The new affair partner is still an unsure thing.
The man (feels) that he has to work for her love.

He sees what she lacks and then he piles it on.
Plies it on.
Lays it on thick.

Provided, he is the pursuer, not the pursued.

If, he is the one pursued, less effort need be applied.
He can give in to her needs (here and there) and later, in spurts. 

Yes, I wrote that!


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

SunCMars said:


> The wife is won, and has been made.
> The notch on the bedpost is old.
> 
> The new affair partner is still an unsure thing.
> ...


"The chase is better then the catch" Motorhead


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## Lovingwife71 (Mar 28, 2018)

Numb26 said:


> "The chase is better then the catch" Motorhead


Gotcha. I'm just wondering for clarification, do you mean chasing the AP is better than catching her, or do you mean the chase of the AP is better than the already caught SO? (RIP Lemmy)


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

From reading stories on TAM related to marriages that have ended and the cheating spouses married their AP's, it would seem that they temporarily changed into a ''better version'' of themselves for the other person. If they were lazy in their first marriage, they're not like that with the AP. If they were overweight in their marriage, they're suddenly into working out with their AP.

But, I think that once the newness wears off, their prior marriages implode, and they are paying alimony and child support for years to come...they don't look so appealing anymore to their AP's.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

It’s more what he doesn’t do. He doesn’t expect his AP to cook for him, do his laundry, keep his home clean or look after his kids. 
He spends whatever time he has with her to wine and dine her, having sex and making her feel special.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Lovingwife71 said:


> If this has been addressed already I haven't seen it, so I apologize if so. I have read several threads and posts on TAM about how when a woman cheats she will do sexual things with her AP that she wouldn't normally do with her significant other, such as oral or anal sex. I am wondering if the same is true for men and what those things might be. It doesn't even have to be sexual things. What things might a man do with or for his AP that he normally wouldn't do with or for his significant other? For example, is he more affectionate, more passionate, does he care more about her pleasure, does he buy her more expensive gifts, does he take her to fancier places?


So my lawyer got my ex's credit card statements during discovery (I filed at fault for adultery), and I couldn't figure that one out either.🤔 They went to a $20 motel, so it couldn't be that, so who knows? That was rather entertaining to me though, it was so funny to toss that for his lawyer when he wanted to skate out Scott free during mediation when I tossed that little titbit out. 

It couldn't be the sexual things, more like who was doing the sexual things. Cause I made some requests that shut him down and apparently grossed him out. 

So my conclusion was, she was new, dazzled by him since she didn't have to deal with his beard clippings everywhere, ****-stained underwear or disgusting hygiene and he ate that **** up. Ego kibbles.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

Lovingwife71 said:


> Gotcha. I'm just wondering for clarification, do you mean chasing the AP is better than catching her, or do you mean the chase of the AP is better than the already caught SO? (RIP Lemmy)


I've been told that the chase of something new is better then what has already been caught and at home waiting. At least that is what I heard from my XW.

Though I will admit, now that I'm single and dating, I can see the truth in the statement.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Lovingwife71 said:


> If this has been addressed already I haven't seen it, so I apologize if so. I have read several threads and posts on TAM about how when a woman cheats she will do sexual things with her AP that she wouldn't normally do with her significant other, such as oral or anal sex. I am wondering if the same is true for men and what those things might be. It doesn't even have to be sexual things. What things might a man do with or for his AP that he normally wouldn't do with or for his significant other? For example, is he more affectionate, more passionate, does he care more about her pleasure, does he buy her more expensive gifts, does he take her to fancier places?


You have to consider that he's not looking for a wife in his affair partner necessarily. So if variety sex is his focus then he's choosing his a fair partners as non-keepers who will do variety sex.


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## Lovingwife71 (Mar 28, 2018)

DownByTheRiver said:


> You have to consider that he's not looking for a wife in his affair partner necessarily. So if variety sex is his focus then he's choosing his a fair partners as non-keepers who will do variety sex.


Thanks. This actually makes a little sense.


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## BeyondRepair007 (Nov 4, 2021)

A male AP will do what is necessary to catch and secure what he has.

If the WW was won by affection and sweet words, then he will be affectionate and use sweet words.
If she was won by being a bad boy, then he will continue to push her limits sexually and non-sexually and treat her as an object.

The male AP will give the WW exactly what she needs to stay locked in, whatever that is.
He will lie, minimize the affair, and gaslight her to get what he wants and keep her wanting more.

In more rare cases he will actually believe he is in 'love'. A warped sort of love, but nonetheless he will believe it to be true.

The chase is a big part for sure. But after the catch, the lifestyle of planning and sneaking is full of endorphins and adrenalin.


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## Julie's Husband (Jan 3, 2022)

I've been pursued and never the pursuer so I'm just guessing that an AP is in the beginning just what folks here call a FB (I really don't like that term). It might turn into something as they spend more time together.

In sex research there is something called the Coolidge Effect.This is renewed or heightened sexual interest when in novel situations. Could be a new partner or even situation, which would make sense in an affair.

This has made study of multiple male orgasms interesting as the Coolidge Effect can result in multiple orgasms for a while. For the study to be valid, couples would need to be paired off until the Coolidge Effect is no longer. Same with the sexy thought of being in the study.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Julie's Husband said:


> I've been pursued and never the pursuer so I'm just guessing that an AP is in the beginning just what folks here call a FB (I really don't like that term). It might turn into something as they spend more time together.
> 
> In sex research there is something called the Coolidge Effect.This is renewed or heightened sexual interest when in novel situations. Could be a new partner or even situation, which would make sense in an affair.
> 
> This has made study of multiple male orgasms interesting as the Coolidge Effect can result in multiple orgasms for a while. For the study to be valid, couples would need to be paired off until the Coolidge Effect is no longer. Same with the sexy thought of being in the study.


Serious question...

Why does every post you make include that you were chased and can have multiple orgasms?

Do you like to humble brag or something? There's literally no relevance whatsoever 🤔


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Lovingwife71 said:


> If this has been addressed already I haven't seen it, so I apologize if so. I have read several threads and posts on TAM about how when a woman cheats she will do sexual things with her AP that she wouldn't normally do with her significant other, such as oral or anal sex. I am wondering if the same is true for men and what those things might be. It doesn't even have to be sexual things. What things might a man do with or for his AP that he normally wouldn't do with or for his significant other? For example, is he more affectionate, more passionate, does he care more about her pleasure, does he buy her more expensive gifts, does he take her to fancier places?


No, he treats her like his personal concubine, because that is what she is.


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## Julie's Husband (Jan 3, 2022)

TXTrini said:


> Serious question...
> 
> Why does every post you make include that you were chased and can have multiple orgasms?
> 
> Do you like to humble brag or something? There's literally no relevance whatsoever 🤔


Coming out of the closet after 50 years. Sorry, I'll try to temper my enthusiasm for attacking the norm.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Julie's Husband said:


> Coming out of the closet after 50 years. Sorry, I'll try to temper my enthusiasm for attacking the norm.


I can understand that.

It was just odd like you're a flasher running around opening his coat to everyone indiscriminately.


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## BeyondRepair007 (Nov 4, 2021)

TXTrini said:


> I can understand that.
> 
> It was just odd like you're a flasher running around opening his coat to everyone indiscriminately.


Nooooo...Get. That. Image. Out!!!


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

It's like having a steak at an upscale steakhouse instead of coming home to left over meatloaf.


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## Julie's Husband (Jan 3, 2022)

TXTrini said:


> I can understand that.
> 
> It was just odd like you're a flasher running around opening his coat to everyone indiscriminately.


Haven't tried that yet.


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

In the WHs mind everything OW does is wonderful, not just because it is new, but because he has his BW for comparison and BW appears dim by contrast.

So you have an attraction which is increased not only by the pull towards the OW but the repulsion from his BW. The lack of bad memories with OW is a bonus as well.

This is why so many affairs start with spouses confiding with strangers about their marriages.

How is he different much more passionate as a result.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

Lovingwife71 said:


> If this has been addressed already I haven't seen it, so I apologize if so. I have read several threads and posts on TAM about how when a woman cheats she will do sexual things with her AP that she wouldn't normally do with her significant other, such as oral or anal sex. I am wondering if the same is true for men and what those things might be. It doesn't even have to be sexual things. What things might a man do with or for his AP that he normally wouldn't do with or for his significant other? For example, is he more affectionate, more passionate, does he care more about her pleasure, does he buy her more expensive gifts, does he take her to fancier places?


For my STBX, it wasn’t about how she looked or what she did in bed (if you can call the back seat of vehicles a bed), it was how she made him feel. He was a god in her eyes, sexy, ambitious, amazing, handsome, perfect. She sang his praises and made him feel everything he wanted to be and wanted to see himself as. He liked how she saw him, how he looked through her eyes. Sure it was all fake and he knew it, but he liked the mirage. He liked the high.


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## Lovingwife71 (Mar 28, 2018)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> No, he treats her like his personal concubine, because that is what she is.


I couldn't agree more. Thank you!


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## Lovingwife71 (Mar 28, 2018)

RebuildingMe said:


> It's like having a steak at an upscale steakhouse instead of coming home to left over meatloaf.


That's pretty messed up


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

Lovingwife71 said:


> That's pretty messed up


I don't agree and I'm not a cheater, but that's their mindset. It's a shiny new toy. However, much like with other toys, it doesn't stay new and shiny for long.


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## Lovingwife71 (Mar 28, 2018)

RebuildingMe said:


> I don't agree and I'm not a cheater, but that's their mindset. It's a shiny new toy. However, much like with other toys, it doesn't stay new and shiny for long.


I apologize. I thought I was getting a cheater's perspective from you. I would agree that is probably their mindset. I was asking for thoughts and you gave them. I appreciate your perspective. I totally agree the toy isn't much fun for long.


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## oldtruck (Feb 15, 2018)

Lovingwife71 said:


> If this has been addressed already I haven't seen it, so I apologize if so. I have read several threads and posts on TAM about how when a woman cheats she will do sexual things with her AP that she wouldn't normally do with her significant other, such as oral or anal sex. I am wondering if the same is true for men and what those things might be. It doesn't even have to be sexual things. What things might a man do with or for his AP that he normally wouldn't do with or for his significant other? For example, is he more affectionate, more passionate, does he care more about her pleasure, does he buy her more expensive gifts, does he take her to fancier places?


30 years reading infidelity website forums I have read more threads that went for page
upon page where the the BH complained that there WW gave the OM more than they gave
their own BH and did many things for the OM that they refuse to do for their BH before their
PA and now after D day still refuse to do for their BH during attempted recovery.

I have never read on post let alone a thread where a BW complained that the OW got more
or her WH did things for his OW that he would not now do for his BW during recovery.


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## oldtruck (Feb 15, 2018)

RebuildingMe said:


> It's like having a steak at an upscale steakhouse instead of coming home to left over meatloaf.



you never had great meatloaf

it is still great leftover


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

RebuildingMe said:


> I don't agree and I'm not a cheater, but that's their mindset. It's a shiny new toy. However, much like with other toys, it doesn't stay new and shiny for long.


For some of them. Some shack up and go on about their lives.


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

TXTrini said:


> For some of them. Some shack up and go on about their lives.


Yes, i suppose. But that shine will wear off…it always does eventually. Ofter people like us are better off the toy is no longer in our possession.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

oldtruck said:


> 30 years reading infidelity website forums I have read more threads that went for page
> upon page where the the BH complained that there WW gave the OM more than they gave
> their own BH and did many things for the OM that they refuse to do for their BH before their
> PA and now after D day still refuse to do for their BH during attempted recovery.
> ...


Well I can be the first. He easily and freely took all his time, affection, attention, and all the best parts of himself and gave those to the OW. He saved all the anger, resentment and garbage left over and gave it me and the kids. Even in “reconciliation” I never got everything he promised to do. But the first time he went running back to his AP, she again was showered with all of the things he said he was “working on” with me. It was the final blow that forced me to see reality. 

Yes that makes me the chump… but there it is.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

RebuildingMe said:


> Yes, i suppose. But that shine will wear off…it always does eventually. Ofter people like us are better off the toy is no longer in our possession.


True. It actually is best for everyone they stick together though, so they don't stank up decent non-cheating folk.


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## Jimi007 (6 mo ago)

All that Glitters is not Gold

TRUTH >> So many affairs start with spouses confiding with strangers about their marriages.

Especially work place affairs


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## BeyondRepair007 (Nov 4, 2021)

QuietRiot said:


> Well I can be the first. He easily and freely took all his time, affection, attention, and all the best parts of himself and gave those to the OW. He saved all the anger, resentment and garbage left over and gave it me and the kids. Even in “reconciliation” I never got everything he promised to do. But the first time he went running back to his AP, she again was showered with all of the things he said he was “working on” with me. It was the final blow that forced me to see reality.
> 
> Yes that makes me the chump… but there it is.


You're not the first and you're not a chump.

I think we hear a lot about the sex acts from BH, maybe it's more inflammatory and relatable?

But we do also hear about the affection and attention give to an OW, especially on days and occasions that are more special for a BW. “He called her on my birthday” for example might be as crushing to a woman as a physical act is crushing to men. “He bought her jewlery”, “He took her on the trip”, etc. Of course I’m making generalizations here.

Point is, we do hear about acts of a WH that are stolen from the BW.
And they sound exactly like your comment.


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## BeyondRepair007 (Nov 4, 2021)

One other point for OP that I think matters is the specifics of the affair.

If the man is the aggressor and the woman is single, then no super-human acts are required. They are dating. Maybe he will go overboard with affection and attention or maybe not.

If the man is the aggressor and the OW is married, then you get into all sorts of things that will be given to the AP that are stolen from the BW. He has to make all the effort to keep his AP happy and is in a sort of competition with the OBS.

If the woman is the aggressor (married or not) then WH can get by without going overboard for his AP. She will be the one doing the super-human things to keep her AP.


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## frenchpaddy (May 31, 2021)

most people that cheated once get run off here without saying what it was that they found or looked for in the person they cheated with , but if we kick this down the road a little and use some of the speak from the swinger lifestyle , when we ask the swingers what is it that makes them want to play with other people you get all types of responses

but most will say they are in a loving relationship but they want to experience the feel of different different in so many ways I can only imagine they are talking in every aspect of love making but i think they call it fu king as they are able split their sex life into love making with their lover and sex 

why I am using swingers as an example is because I would think most cheaters don't expect to get found out , so they like it for many different reasons , if you had sex with others before you fell for your husband , you are in a better place than me to know that each man is different , each have a different way to go about it and they because each action sparks a reaction they were different again with all the women they had sex with after and before you ,

Are you asking this because you are on the road to recovery after been cheated on


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## Lovingwife71 (Mar 28, 2018)

frenchpaddy said:


> most people that cheated once get run off here without saying what it was that they found or looked for in the person they cheated with , but if we kick this down the road a little and use some of the speak from the swinger lifestyle , when we ask the swingers what is it that makes them want to play with other people you get all types of responses
> 
> but most will say they are in a loving relationship but they want to experience the feel of different different in so many ways I can only imagine they are talking in every aspect of love making but i think they call it fu king as they are able split their sex life into love making with their lover and sex
> 
> ...


Hi. Thank you for your response. First of all yes, I am currently trying to reconcile with my husband, so yes, that's why I am asking. Let me try to decipher what you are saying here, forgive me if I am misunderstanding anything. I think you are saying, the men I/or anyone have dated probably acted differently with women before me and after me. Therefore my husband most likely acted differently with me and his ap. Is that correct? I think I have gotten pretty close to the whole truth from my husband about what happened during his affair. He is showing genuine remorse, has made changes in his attitude and behavior, and is working to repair the marriage. I guess I just have it in my head, what was he doing with/for her? Was he more affectionate, was he more passionate? Because those have been my main complaints with OUR relationship, I guess I need to know if he did with her what he didn't with me. I did speak with the OW. She was pretty forthcoming and confirmed pretty much what he already told me. I wish I had asked her more, but I was pretty shocked she even talked to me. I had imagined our confrontation going much differently, so I wasn't prepared for her to be the way she was. (It was ALMOST difficult to hate her. But I was still able to, lol, and I told her so). I would have (and probably should have) had a list of questions prepared. 

BTW, I have read many of your posts. I think you give great advice. Thanks for taking the time to respond.


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## Lovingwife71 (Mar 28, 2018)

oldtruck said:


> 30 years reading infidelity website forums I have read more threads that went for page
> upon page where the the BH complained that there WW gave the OM more than they gave
> their own BH and did many things for the OM that they refuse to do for their BH before their
> PA and now after D day still refuse to do for their BH during attempted recovery.
> ...


It's hard to explain but I'm going to try. My issue isn't about what my husband will or won't do during our recovery. He's doing everything he should be. My issue is before the affair and during. Obviously there was issues in our marriage. Duh, lol. My husband was not very affectionate before his affair. That was a lot of the problem in our marriage. So I am wondering, was he affectionate/passionate with the OW? Was he giving her what he couldn't/wouldn't give me? If so, why, when he knew that's what I needed? There is no issue with that now, but is it too little too late? I don't know. That's what I'm trying to decide now. Yes, he's putting in 110% to make the marriage work, I'm just not sure I can get over what happened. I am trying, but that's all I can offer him right now. I'd like to know what the possible things are that a man does for his AP that he doesn't for his wife.

I'm getting from your comment, and sorry if I'm misunderstand, but I'm getting that women do things with their AP that they won't do with their husband before or after the affair, and husbands are having affairs because their wives won't do things with them. The husbands are always willing to give whatever the wife wants/needs. IE. Affairs, either way, are always the wife's fault

I can tell you, in MY case at least, there were many needs my husband wasn't meeting on my end too. The marital issues were on BOTH of us, but only ONE of us decided to cheat. Hint: It wasn't me.


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## gameopoly5 (5 mo ago)

Society perceives women cheating as more taboo than men cheating.
Rightly or wrongly that`s the way it is and has always been.
Today, it is likely many women are cheating as much as the men, perhaps more because no one knows the exact numbers of women who cheat.
Cheating is a human condition, not a mistake but a choice people make.
Women have more to lose than men when they choose to cheat because when men choose to cheat it`s usually just lust, they may still love their wives in the majority of cases and if caught there is still hope for the marriage.
When women cheat it becomes more emotional and means they are either checking out from the marriage or have already mentally and emotionally checked out from the marriage, they will hold feelings for their APs that makes it much more difficult to save the marriage.
Is it fact that cheating wives will in most cases give more of themselves sexually to their AP`s than to their husbands.
Cheating husbands probably won`t do more with their AP`s than with their wives sexually but they will lavish their side pieces with gifts to keep them as side pieces and in return their sidepieces will give them sexually that their wives have failed to do over several years of their marriage. 
This is how men differ with their AP`s from women.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

Lovingwife71 said:


> It's hard to explain but I'm going to try. My issue isn't about what my husband will or won't do during our recovery. He's doing everything he should be. My issue is before the affair and during. Obviously there was issues in our marriage. Duh, lol. My husband was not very affectionate before his affair. That was a lot of the problem in our marriage. So I am wondering, was he affectionate/passionate with the OW? Was he giving her what he couldn't/wouldn't give me? If so, why, when he knew that's what I needed? There is no issue with that now, but is it too little too late? I don't know. That's what I'm trying to decide now. Yes, he's putting in 110% to make the marriage work, I'm just not sure I can get over what happened. I am trying, but that's all I can offer him right now. I'd like to know what the possible things are that a man does for his AP that he doesn't for his wife.
> 
> I'm getting from your comment, and sorry if I'm misunderstand, but I'm getting that women do things with their AP that they won't do with their husband before or after the affair, and husbands are having affairs because their wives won't do things with them. The husbands are always willing to give whatever the wife wants/needs. IE. Affairs, either way, are always the wife's fault
> 
> I can tell you, in MY case at least, there were many needs my husband wasn't meeting on my end too. The marital issues were on BOTH of us, but only ONE of us decided to cheat. Hint: It wasn't me.


Husbands do not have a affairs because they aren’t getting something from their wife, they have affairs because they are entitled and selfish. 

What was your husband like when you first started dating him? Affectionate, loving, doting? I think it’s safe to assume he was all that plus add in the excitement and high of an elicit tryst, and that’s how he was with the OW. 

I know it seems like you need to know how he was and what he gave her that he wasn’t giving you… but out of curiousity… why?


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## Lovingwife71 (Mar 28, 2018)

gameopoly5 said:


> Society perceives women cheating as more taboo than men cheating.
> Rightly or wrongly that`s the way it is and has always been.
> Today, it is likely many women are cheating as much as the men, perhaps more because no one knows the exact numbers of women who cheat.
> Cheating is a human condition, not a mistake but a choice people make.
> ...


Thank you so much! I totally understand and this puts things in perspective. I agree with this. It's hard for women knowing their husbands were buying these women gifts and dinners, etc because, after all, this is our money too they are spending on these women. But I totally get the reasoning behind it and what you've said answers my question a lot. I really appreciate it.


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## Lovingwife71 (Mar 28, 2018)

QuietRiot said:


> Husbands do not have a affairs because they aren’t getting something from their wife, they have affairs because they are entitled and selfish.
> 
> What was your husband like when you first started dating him? Affectionate, loving, doting? I think it’s safe to assume he was all that plus add in the excitement and high of an elicit tryst, and that’s how he was with the OW.
> 
> I know it seems like you need to know how he was and what he gave her that he wasn’t giving you… but out of curiousity… why?


Honestly no, he was never loving or doting. That's why I need to know if he was with her. Why? I'm not sure. I'm just being honest. I think maybe I need to know if he was affectionate with her which he couldn't do with me for over 20 years. I accepted him for the way he was, but it obviously caused me to act in certain ways that he wasn't happy with and he sought out OW. 

I guess it's the same reason why a guy needs to know if his wife gave the OM oral or anal sex. Why? For me, I know my husband. If he was different with this woman than he was with me for over 20 years, why? Why was she deserving of something I asked for repeatedly and was told, "That's not me." And if it truly isn't him, why would he do it for her but not me if he supposedly loves me so much and always wanted me. I need those answers if I can truly reconcile. I guess that's why. I don't have a better answer.


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## GoldenR (Jan 6, 2019)

In post with BWs, a lot of times the men took their APs to more expensive restaurants, bought them more lavish gifts and took them on more extravagant trips.


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

Lovingwife71 said:


> Honestly no, he was never loving or doting. That's why I need to know if he was with her. Why? I'm not sure. I'm just being honest. I think maybe I need to know if he was affectionate with her which he couldn't do with me for over 20 years. I accepted him for the way he was, but it obviously caused me to act in certain ways that he wasn't happy with and he sought out OW.
> 
> I guess it's the same reason why a guy needs to know if his wife gave the OM oral or anal sex. Why? For me, I know my husband. If he was different with this woman than he was with me for over 20 years, why? Why was she deserving of something I asked for repeatedly and was told, "That's not me." And if it truly isn't him, why would he do it for her but not me if he supposedly loves me so much and always wanted me. I need those answers if I can truly reconcile. I guess that's why. I don't have a better answer.


You said earlier that your husband is doing everything he should be for your recovery, so why aren't you asking him this? He is the only one who has the answers. 

That being said, it's entirely possible that he did things for or with the OW that he wouldn't do for/with you.

That doesn't mean the OW was more "deserving". When I slept with someone else, I did things with her (both inside and outside of the bedroom) that my wife wanted/wanted more of, just because I knew it would piss her off if it got back to her. I don't have feelings for that woman, never have really, and I wasn't thinking that she was better or more deserving in any way. 

People are also fake and on their best behavior during affairs (I wasn't really, didn't need to be, but I don't think that's the norm). He was in a fantasy and that could have driven him to do things he normally wouldn't. 

People can also let go more easily during affairs. It's like when people expose their weird fetish to an AP but wouldn't dare show it to their spouse. It's not because the AP is better, they care about them more, etc. kinda the opposite.


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## frenchpaddy (May 31, 2021)

Lovingwife71 said:


> Hi. Thank you for your response. First of all yes, I am currently trying to reconcile with my husband, so yes, that's why I am asking. Let me try to decipher what you are saying here, forgive me if I am misunderstanding anything. I think you are saying, the men I/or anyone have dated probably acted differently with women before me and after me. Therefore my husband most likely acted differently with me and his ap. Is that correct? I think I have gotten pretty close to the whole truth from my husband about what happened during his affair. He is showing genuine remorse, has made changes in his attitude and behavior, and is working to repair the marriage. I guess I just have it in my head, what was he doing with/for her? Was he more affectionate, was he more passionate? Because those have been my main complaints with OUR relationship, I guess I need to know if he did with her what he didn't with me. I did speak with the OW. She was pretty forthcoming and confirmed pretty much what he already told me. I wish I had asked her more, but I was pretty shocked she even talked to me. I had imagined our confrontation going much differently, so I wasn't prepared for her to be the way she was. (It was ALMOST difficult to hate her. But I was still able to, lol, and I told her so). I would have (and probably should have) had a list of questions prepared.
> 
> BTW, I have read many of your posts. I think you give great advice. Thanks for taking the time to respond.


what I was trying to say is that every two people bring different things to their relationship so while a man with one woman could be caring and soft the same man could be very different with a different woman , it was interesting that you got to talk with the other woman and she talked to you in the way she did , 
what is strange is some men that cheat go for the same type of woman like as if the mistress was a clone , then there are other men we know from guys that get found with escorts that want a wife and that they have what can be called normal or some might say vanilla sex but pick a escort that is extreme, like madam whiplash , 

having said that you get some guys that seem to be open to anything when dating women because they just are into fooling around and happy to use girls but when the are ready to settle down want a virgin or a woman they call wife material to me this thinking is Hippocratic but not uncommon


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## frenchpaddy (May 31, 2021)

GoldenR said:


> In post with BWs, a lot of times the men took their APs to more expensive restaurants, Night them more lavish gifts and took them on more extravagant trips.


there was one cheater I know he was saying to his mistress that he was married and that he was looking for just someone to fill the sex gap and a friend , he told her he had two children and he wanted to send them to uni , so there was going to be no gifts and no dinners the most was a cup of coffee , what I was shocked to find out was he went on a holiday with the kids and wife driving the car he was texting his mistress he would text her while on the bus to work and last thing at night first thing in the morning , 

he used to use the company car and nip off time during work to go see his mistress so while we were paying him he was off flogging his mistress using our car and our diesel so his mistress did not cost him a penny , we found out he had been having an affair for a year and the mistress got fed up that the only time she saw him wan on work time and he would go to her house and he had sex and then jump into the car and back to work , she would have not stopped the affair if he had sometimes called to see her and not want sex every time it was just the sex every time put her off for some reason ,

HE PULLED IT ALL OFF AND his wife never was told we did not want to get involved and it was just be chance we ended up working for the mistress when she told my wife her story , what the mistress did not know was that the car he was driving was not even his ,

Just how many cheaters are never found out God only knows


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

Lovingwife71 said:


> Honestly no, he was never loving or doting. That's why I need to know if he was with her. Why? I'm not sure. I'm just being honest. I think maybe I need to know if he was affectionate with her which he couldn't do with me for over 20 years. I accepted him for the way he was, but it obviously caused me to act in certain ways that he wasn't happy with and he sought out OW.
> 
> I guess it's the same reason why a guy needs to know if his wife gave the OM oral or anal sex. Why? For me, I know my husband. If he was different with this woman than he was with me for over 20 years, why? Why was she deserving of something I asked for repeatedly and was told, "That's not me." And if it truly isn't him, why would he do it for her but not me if he supposedly loves me so much and always wanted me. I need those answers if I can truly reconcile. I guess that's why. I don't have a better answer.


Im not trying to poke at you for wanting to know, but I think it’s important why you want to know. What if he was everything you wished for, only with her? What would that mean for you? Do you think you could convince him to be like that with you if you did know?

I think the best indicator of who someone is, is what they do. If he’s not loving and affectionate with you and never has been… then you have to assume it’s not sustainable for him to be that way for you in the long term, even if he was compelled to in order to reconcile.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

You’ll likely never know all the story — not for sure. I never did. My exH didn’t want a divorce, and fought it when I finally had had enough, because supposedly I was the love of his life, but that certainly didn’t stop him from cheating. The one thing I absolutely do know about his relationship is that he “loaned” her money. Lots of money. Why? Because apparently she couldn’t manage her life financially and so he was “helping”. So my answer to you, such as it is, is that male cheaters do whatever they need to in order to keep the OW’s attention. Maybe my exH only gave her money. Maybe he gave her many other things including all the time and attention he didn’t give me. I’ll never know. You probably won’t either — regardless of what he tells you. Most of us who reconcile do so without knowing 100% what it is that we’re forgiving. That’s usually just part of the deal. How could you believe anything a cheater said anyway?


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## Jimi007 (6 mo ago)

You said you spoke to his mistress , Just curious did your husband's AP know that he was married ?

Did he ever say he would leave you for her ? 

How did it end ? Because you found out ?

Also , sorry your going thru this
Jimi


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## oldtruck (Feb 15, 2018)

Lovingwife71 said:


> It's hard to explain but I'm going to try. My issue isn't about what my husband will or won't do during our recovery. He's doing everything he should be. My issue is before the affair and during. Obviously there was issues in our marriage. Duh, lol. My husband was not very affectionate before his affair. That was a lot of the problem in our marriage. So I am wondering, was he affectionate/passionate with the OW? Was he giving her what he couldn't/wouldn't give me? If so, why, when he knew that's what I needed? There is no issue with that now, but is it too little too late? I don't know. That's what I'm trying to decide now. Yes, he's putting in 110% to make the marriage work, I'm just not sure I can get over what happened. I am trying, but that's all I can offer him right now. I'd like to know what the possible things are that a man does for his AP that he doesn't for his wife.
> 
> I'm getting from your comment, and sorry if I'm misunderstand, but I'm getting that women do things with their AP that they won't do with their husband before or after the affair, and husbands are having affairs because their wives won't do things with them. The husbands are always willing to give whatever the wife wants/needs. IE. Affairs, either way, are always the wife's fault
> 
> I can tell you, in MY case at least, there were many needs my husband wasn't meeting on my end too. The marital issues were on BOTH of us, but only ONE of us decided to cheat. Hint: It wasn't me.


Ask your WH if he met emotional and physical needs for his OW that he never did for you.

Then demand those things that he did that you want WH to do for you now. The affair cannot 
be undone. Though your WH can make amends now.

Is WH being transparent?
Shared all social media, emails, and passwords, cell phone access?
Maintaining NC with the OW?
Working to rebuild trust?

Then you have the basis for recovery.

Part of D day is leaving the BS afraid. It takes about 6 months for a process the PA.
6 months to 1 year the BS goes through an anger phase.
1 year from D day the BS can start the healing process.
Recovery takes 2 yo 5 years.


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## gameopoly5 (5 mo ago)

Lovingwife71 said:


> Honestly no, he was never loving or doting. That's why I need to know if he was with her. Why? I'm not sure. I'm just being honest. I think maybe I need to know if he was affectionate with her which he couldn't do with me for over 20 years. I accepted him for the way he was, but it obviously caused me to act in certain ways that he wasn't happy with and he sought out OW.
> 
> I guess it's the same reason why a guy needs to know if his wife gave the OM oral or anal sex. Why? For me, I know my husband. If he was different with this woman than he was with me for over 20 years, why? Why was she deserving of something I asked for repeatedly and was told, "That's not me." And if it truly isn't him, why would he do it for her but not me if he supposedly loves me so much and always wanted me. I need those answers if I can truly reconcile. I guess that's why. I don't have a better answer.


My wife and I live in Thailand now, have done since 2003. I am English and back in the UK I was a legal executive and conducted many divorce cases, I was also a Samaritan for 2 years. So I have a lot of relationships experience.
Back in the Jurassic period when I were young and single and was dating girls, my first state of play was to try and impress them. Trying to act macho, pile on the humour and BS talk about myself, what we used to describe as, chatting them up with the gift of the gab. Any flaws I had in my character I would cover up and literally BS my way to be the type of guy those girls thought they`d be interested in. 
It works the same when husbands are having affairs. They put on a facade of being somebody they are not as if they`ll still single and want to hold a woman`s interest.
I done the same when I dated my first wife and now second wife.
The old saying; we never know anyone until we live with them, is true. It means over time and this pertains to both husbands and wives, we end up with different types spouses from how they were during the courtships and honeymoon periods.
If for example your husband did leave you for another woman, eventually his true character would break through, whether for better or for worse. Both you and your husband are not the same persons your husband thought you were 20 years ago and vice-versa. 
Now here`s the kicker. In western countries the courts tend to look more favorably upon the wives during divorce cases, not in all but many. As I said in my previous post, when husbands cheat it`s mostly about lust, when wives cheat it becomes more emotional.
The same applies when single women have affairs with married men. Rarely do married men leave their wives for a side piece or even a women they may have feelings for, because as I mentioned regarding the divorce courts, if caught these men know they have too much to lose, especially if there are children involved and will go back to their wives, which usually results in tears for the women who had been emotionally involved and fallen in love with their AP`s. 
I have no sympathy for women who have affairs with married men, if they know the men are married, because they don`t give a rat`s behind about the wives of these married men and if children involved they are participating in destroying a family.
As for reconcile, if you decide to give it a go you need to show your husband a side of you he`s not seen before. Warn him in no uncertain terms that even if you suspect he`s at it again you will be filing for divorce and they`ll be consequences for him, that`s how you must deal with it. The old saying; even the worm can turn.
Hope this helps.


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

To answer how is a man physically....

I've never had an affair....but when my W has had new haircut or dressed unlike how she usually does like she was another woman......

I got hard faster, was harder, came faster, shot further, produced more fluid, had more contractions, came twice with no refractory peroid, felt more euphoric afterward, etc. 

I would have to believe at least two or more of the above are true for most cheating men, unless cheating is their norm and they rarely have sex with their BWs, they cheat with their BWs lol.

There has been some research about this by people like Kinsey etc, but I don't think there is any objective facts since the entire subject is so sunk in subjectivity.


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## Lovingwife71 (Mar 28, 2018)

bobert said:


> You said earlier that your husband is doing everything he should be for your recovery, so why aren't you asking him this? He is the only one who has the answers.
> 
> That being said, it's entirely possible that he did things for or with the OW that he wouldn't do for/with you.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your perspective. Yes, my husband is doing everything he should be for our recovery. I have asked him this question and he has answered me. I believe his answers for the most part, it's just that I read all the time that cheaters lie. And I wonder, would he tell me things that are not in his best interest to tell me. I mean, obviously it wasn't in his best interest to tell me he had an affair or that he had sex with another woman, but it's SOOOOO not in his best interest to tell me, I was more loving, caring and doting on her than you, ESPECIALLY since he knows that was the major issue in our marriage to begin with. He knows very well that could be a marriage ender for us. I do know that only he can answer those questions for sure. I just wanted some insight from others, what are the most common things men do for their APs, I would take the most prominent answers and ask my husband if he did those things for his AP. 

He did say what you said, and I had a hard time believing it, so you did confirm for me when he said that it's harder to do some things with me or for me because he cares more about me. He cares more about what I think of him. With the other woman he didn't care about she thought. Your last paragraph confirmed what he's said many times, so thank you for that. 

As far as being on his best behavior so to speak, I know my husband. I know he was trying to impress them. He denies this, but I know him so well. He would try to impress more with his words than his actions though. I just cannot see my husband being all lovey dovey with ANYONE. Even in the beginning of our relationship, when he wanted to be with me all the time and we would stay up to all hours of the night talking, he still wasn't affectionate. It seemed odd to me that he was different than any other BF I had, but I thought he has low self-esteem and it will take him a bit to get used to acting like a normal BF for lack of a better word. Maybe I am wrong, maybe he was super affectionate with them. I don't see that, it's not his personality at all. I just wanted everybody's opinion.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Lovingwife71 said:


> Thank you for your perspective. Yes, my husband is doing everything he should be for our recovery. I have asked him this question and he has answered me. I believe his answers for the most part, it's just that I read all the time that cheaters lie. And I wonder, would he tell me things that are not in his best interest to tell me. I mean, obviously it wasn't in his best interest to tell me he had an affair or that he had sex with another woman, but it's SOOOOO not in his best interest to tell me, I was more loving, caring and doting on her than you, ESPECIALLY since he knows that was the major issue in our marriage to begin with. He knows very well that could be a marriage ender for us. I do know that only he can answer those questions for sure. I just wanted some insight from others, what are the most common things men do for their APs, I would take the most prominent answers and ask my husband if he did those things for his AP.
> 
> He did say what you said, and I had a hard time believing it, so you did confirm for me when he said that it's harder to do some things with me or for me because he cares more about me. He cares more about what I think of him. With the other woman he didn't care about she thought. Your last paragraph confirmed what he's said many times, so thank you for that.
> 
> As far as being on his best behavior so to speak, I know my husband. I know he was trying to impress them. He denies this, but I know him so well. He would try to impress more with his words than his actions though. I just cannot see my husband being all lovey dovey with ANYONE. Even in the beginning of our relationship, when he wanted to be with me all the time and we would stay up to all hours of the night talking, he still wasn't affectionate. It seemed odd to me that he was different than any other BF I had, but I thought he has low self-esteem and it will take him a bit to get used to acting like a normal BF for lack of a better word. Maybe I am wrong, maybe he was super affectionate with them. I don't see that, it's not his personality at all. I just wanted everybody's opinion.


That's the dilemma, isn't it? Even if someone is doing all the right things, how do you know what their true motive is? After all, they lie to your face for however long the affair went on, and to cover up the series of actions that led to their affair.

Some people recommend a polygraph, but that's so limited, I think you only get 3 questions, so that would still leave too much out there.

At the end of the day, you're taking a chance on someone you know is capable of lying, breaking trust and willfully hurting you. So, you have to find a way to forgive and move on, and be ok not knowing everything. It's human nature to present oneself in the best light, of course, he's not going to tell you everything. Is he going to IC to address his issues? Or is he just so sorry?


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## Lovingwife71 (Mar 28, 2018)

frenchpaddy said:


> what I was trying to say is that every two people bring different things to their relationship so while a man with one woman could be caring and soft the same man could be very different with a different woman , it was interesting that you got to talk with the other woman and she talked to you in the way she did ,
> what is strange is some men that cheat go for the same type of woman like as if the mistress was a clone , then there are other men we know from guys that get found with escorts that want a wife and that they have what can be called normal or some might say vanilla sex but pick a escort that is extreme, like madam whiplash ,
> 
> having said that you get some guys that seem to be open to anything when dating women because they just are into fooling around and happy to use girls but when the are ready to settle down want a virgin or a woman they call wife material to me this thinking is Hippocratic but not uncommon


Ok, I understand what you are saying about what 2 different people bring to a relationship. You said it was interesting that I was able to speak with the OW and she responded the way she did. What do you mean by that? I am surprised it went as well as it did too. I wish I had prepared more questions for her. I did ask her a lot of what I wanted to know, but if I had known it was going to go so smoothly, I would have prepared a list of questions so I didn't forget things. There was more things I wanted to SAY to her than ASK her and I did SAY everything I wanted to say. In my head, I had planned more of a confrontation than a conversation, lol. I am glad it went the way it did, but I wish I had asked more questions. 

I also get what you mean about the AP men pick. In my case, my husband chose someone totally opposite of me. It totally backfired on him and I will just leave it at that . I am about 5"3 or 4, 97 lbs, long wavy brown hair, dark brown eyes, full lips. His AP was about a year younger than me but looks about 10 years older, brown hair, warts and moles all over her face, and about 250+ lbs. He definitely affaired down and I don't get it.

My husband would not have wanted to marry a virgin. Quite the opposite in fact, lol. And no, his AP was not wild and kinky. haha.


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## Lovingwife71 (Mar 28, 2018)

QuietRiot said:


> Im not trying to poke at you for wanting to know, but I think it’s important why you want to know. What if he was everything you wished for, only with her? What would that mean for you? Do you think you could convince him to be like that with you if you did know?
> 
> I think the best indicator of who someone is, is what they do. If he’s not loving and affectionate with you and never has been… then you have to assume it’s not sustainable for him to be that way for you in the long term, even if he was compelled to in order to reconcile.


I did not think you were trying to poke fun at me for wanting to know. Even if I felt you were being harsh, which I did not, we all need a reality check at times. 
What if he was everything I wished for, only with her? I would need to know why. Why did SHE make him into someone he isn't and never was? with anyone in the past, not just me. What would that mean for me? It would probably mean the end of our marriage, and he may know that. Because, if he could be someone he's NEVER been with ANYONE, EVER, there must've been something pretty special about her. Do I think I can convince him to be like that with me if I did know? He is being the way I want him to be now. I don't need to convince him. It would kill me to know he was with her like he is with me now. I would wonder why he was suddenly able to be a completely different person than he's ever been, with ANYONE, his entire life. I guess that's why I need to know. I can't really explain it any better than that, but I will tell you, I would seriously reconsider staying in the marriage if I knew he was.

I do understand that he's been a certain way for 27 years and his "change" may not be sustainable in the long term. He says he wants to be this way, he didn't like the way he was in the past and he is changing not only for me, but for himself as well. We will see if it lasts. Right now I am being very cautious but optimistic with him. 

Thank you for taking the time to respond. I really appreciate it.


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## Lovingwife71 (Mar 28, 2018)

Openminded said:


> You’ll likely never know all the story — not for sure. I never did. My exH didn’t want a divorce, and fought it when I finally had had enough, because supposedly I was the love of his life, but that certainly didn’t stop him from cheating. The one thing I absolutely do know about his relationship is that he “loaned” her money. Lots of money. Why? Because apparently she couldn’t manage her life financially and so he was “helping”. So my answer to you, such as it is, is that male cheaters do whatever they need to in order to keep the OW’s attention. Maybe my exH only gave her money. Maybe he gave her many other things including all the time and attention he didn’t give me. I’ll never know. You probably won’t either — regardless of what he tells you. Most of us who reconcile do so without knowing 100% what it is that we’re forgiving. That’s usually just part of the deal. How could you believe anything a cheater said anyway?


Thanks for your reply. I agree, I don't think I will ever know 100%. I also hear about how I am the love of his life and how I mean the world to him, but his thinking was fuxed up. I agree they do whatever they need to do to keep the OWs attention. I'm not even going to tell you what he says about the some of the stuff because you'd laugh. It's downright laughable but at the same time it's insulting that he thinks I'd even believe some of it. I tell him, "do you really think I am that stupid? I am insulted that you would think I'd believe that nonsense." Obviously my husband gave this woman time and attention he didn't give me. I guess if I can't believe anything he says, reconciliation is kind of pointless then, huh?


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

Lovingwife71 said:


> I did not think you were trying to poke fun at me for wanting to know. Even if I felt you were being harsh, which I did not, we all need a reality check at times.
> What if he was everything I wished for, only with her? I would need to know why. Why did SHE make him into someone he isn't and never was? with anyone in the past, not just me. What would that mean for me? It would probably mean the end of our marriage, and he may know that. Because, if he could be someone he's NEVER been with ANYONE, EVER, there must've been something pretty special about her. Do I think I can convince him to be like that with me if I did know? He is being the way I want him to be now. I don't need to convince him. It would kill me to know he was with her like he is with me now. I would wonder why he was suddenly able to be a completely different person than he's ever been, with ANYONE, his entire life. I guess that's why I need to know. I can't really explain it any better than that, but I will tell you, I would seriously reconsider staying in the marriage if I knew he was.
> 
> I do understand that he's been a certain way for 27 years and his "change" may not be sustainable in the long term. He says he wants to be this way, he didn't like the way he was in the past and he is changing not only for me, but for himself as well. We will see if it lasts. Right now I am being very cautious but optimistic with him.
> ...


There’s a lot here. If this is a deal breaker and he knows it, then you’re right, he has every reason to keep that information from you. But that he IS keeping that information, that speaks to the fact he is still selfish and self serving and does not bode well for true reconciliation. I don’t believe secrets can be kept or managed and parceled out at the control of the betrayer, and then all will be well. Whatever information you need to know should be provided as much as you want and repeatedly. 

There are some people that say the BS shouldn’t get as many details as they want because it will just hurt them more. I don’t agree with that assertion, it’s the person who is wounded that should have 100% control over the whether they reconcile given all the factors that make or break that choice… and hiding the truth cannot be something that is a choice by the betrayer. I don’t think they ever had the right to hide the truth and shouldn’t be managing what they think is best unilaterally through reconciliation. 

If you feel he is minimizing or keeping the full truth from you, odds are that he is. I think a lot of people agree to reconciliation without having their mandates and information seeking met before they do so, I know I was one of those people. In my opinion, reconciliation is earned through specific measures… not given freely and then half assed by the cheater. I would suggest you make him PROVE that he didn’t give her the same treatment to EARN reconciliation rather than trying to interrogate him while he knows he already has the prize in hand. How he goes about proving that to your satisfaction is his personal problem to figure out.

Good luck.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Lovingwife71 said:


> Thanks for your reply. I agree, I don't think I will ever know 100%. I also hear about how I am the love of his life and how I mean the world to him, but his thinking was fuxed up. I agree they do whatever they need to do to keep the OWs attention. I'm not even going to tell you what he says about the some of the stuff because you'd laugh. It's downright laughable but at the same time it's insulting that he thinks I'd even believe some of it. I tell him, "do you really think I am that stupid? I am insulted that you would think I'd believe that nonsense." Obviously my husband gave this woman time and attention he didn't give me. I guess if I can't believe anything he says, reconciliation is kind of pointless then, huh?


I reconciled the first time I caught my exH cheating but I got out the second time I caught him (I’ll never know for sure how many times he actually cheated). In between No. 1 and No. 2 were a number of years so I speak as someone who reconciled and then much later divorced. He didn’t want a divorce — getting one wasn’t his plan — and he fought it but I had had enough by the time I finally gave up. You never regain 100% trust and you shouldn’t once you know what they’re capable of. I was more devastated the second time but in the back of my mind was a little voice that said “Told you so” — with justification because you always wonder if they’ll cheat again. In my case the answer was yes, despite all the promises and everything else, he cheated again. Reconciliation is a very hard road and if it fails you feel like the biggest fool on the planet for giving them the chance to hurt you again. But some do reconcile successfully and have a happy life. The problem is figuring out which one you have. I guessed wrong.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

I am sure all WWs regardless of gender bring their A-game in the initial encounters with the AP.

To make the question apples to apples, the conditions would have to be does the WH refuse to do something the BW wants, but does it willingly and enthusiastically with OW.


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## Lovingwife71 (Mar 28, 2018)

Jimi007 said:


> You said you spoke to his mistress , Just curious did your husband's AP know that he was married ?
> 
> Did he ever say he would leave you for her ?
> 
> ...


Thanks for your reply. Yes, she knew he was married and she was married too. Ummmm, legally separated for 5 years, living in the same house, and she "just happened" to kicked her husband out of the house during her affair with my husband. I don't believe they were "separated". That was pretty convenient. I said to her, "oh nice, so you didn't fux up your own marriage, just mine." She said, "I would have never gotten involved with a man in a HAPPILY committed relationship." I said to her, "it doesn't matter if they are HAPPY or not. You don't get involved with committed men AT ALL. Any problems in a relationship can be fixed. But once there's infidelity, any hope of fixing things pretty much goes out the window." She said, "I understand that. It's not something I'm proud of. It was one of the worst decisions I've ever made in my life." I said, "yes it was. I hope you never do that to another woman. How would you feel if some woman did that to you?" She said, "I would be devastated." I said, "Yes you would. You would be utterly devastated." She said, "I think my husband did cheat on me." I said, "so you know how it would feel and you still did that to another woman?" She said, "I'm not proud of it." I said, "you shouldn't be. You should be totally ashamed of yourself."

I said to her, "so you knew I wasn't aware of what you two were doing?" and she said, "yes, I was aware."

He told me he NEVER planned to leave me for her and she knew that. He found her on a chat site and his profile said he wasn't looking to change his home life. I wanted to ask her if he ever told her he planned to leave me. I wanted to ask her if he told her we weren't having sex, because that wasn't true. But like I said in previous posts, I expected more of a confrontation than a conversation, so I didn't prepare as well as I would have liked. 

I ended up finding out because of something inappropriate at his job old job (apartment maintenance). He was fired and had to tell me. The affair happened 4 years ago and I knew at the time SOMETHING was going on. Our marriage was ok. Not great but not horrible. Once he was in his affair it went downhill quickly and I was trying to figure out what was going on. I will never be that blind again. I should have known. He didn't think it was affecting our marriage, it was affecting it TREMENDOUSLY and I still have the texts from back then to prove it. We have been going over them.


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## Lovingwife71 (Mar 28, 2018)

oldtruck said:


> Ask your WH if he met emotional and physical needs for his OW that he never did for you.
> 
> Then demand those things that he did that you want WH to do for you now. The affair cannot
> be undone. Though your WH can make amends now.
> ...


Thanks for the advice. I have asked him if he met needs for her he didn't with me. He says no. Does that mean he's telling the truth? The only reason I believe him is because I cannot see him being that way with anyone. 

I didn't have to really demand anything from him. He asked me, what can I do to show you that I've changed, that I want only you. I told him and he's been doing them. I know the affair cannot be undone. It doesn't make me feel any better about it unfortunately. LOL.

He is being totally transparent. He's shared PWs, is not on social media, has shared location, cell phone access (which he guarded like a hawk b4). He is doing EVERYTHING he needs to be doing which I don't get either. He was a completely different person before and now that he's been caught, he's suddenly changed? Why? I asked him that. He said it was a wake up for him. He learned a lot from what happened. He didn't like who he was and doesn't want to be that person anymore. Part of me believes him, but is that because I WANT to believe him? Only time will tell if his change is for real.


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## Lovingwife71 (Mar 28, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> I am sure all WWs regardless of gender bring their A-game in the initial encounters with the AP.
> 
> To make the question apples to apples, the conditions would have to be does the WH refuse to do something the BW wants, but does it willingly and enthusiastically with OW.


YESSSSS!!!!!! That is EXACTLY what I'm saying. Thank you for saying so easily what I apparently didn't. For years, decades actually, the problem in our marriage was that my husband was not very caring or affectionate. Was he a good person? Yes, for the most part he was. He did not treat me poorly, normally, other than cheating on me, lol. But I did tell him over and over again, I need physical affection, other than sex. I need you to hold my hand, I need you to kiss me, I need you touch me in non sexual ways too. He would tell me, I'm not like that, I have a hard time doing that stuff . I came to accept it but I was never happy. So yes, it's exactly what you are saying, did he do that stuff with/for her after refusing to do it with/for me? I need to know, and I have asked him in a round about way. He said they went to the mall. I asked him if he held her hand. He said no because he was afraid he would see someone we knew. That tells me he wanted to but didn't for specific reasons. Whereas with me, he didn't because it's not who he was. Understand? He is not refusing to do the things with me NOW, but he was. And if he was refusing with me, but doing with her, that's way messed up. No?

I do want to know how he was with her, but I think it would kill me if I actually knew. At the same time, I need to know what I am reconciling with. I cannot reconcile if he's done things that are deal breakers for me.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

He’s only doing it now because he’s afraid you’ll divorce him and he doesn’t want that. What you don’t know is whether it’s permanent change or not. That’s obviously the tricky part. Time will tell you that.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

Lovingwife71 said:


> YESSSSS!!!!!! That is EXACTLY what I'm saying. Thank you for saying so easily what I apparently didn't. For years, decades actually, the problem in our marriage was that my husband was not very caring or affectionate. Was he a good person? Yes, for the most part he was. He did not treat me poorly, normally, other than cheating on me, lol. But I did tell him over and over again, I need physical affection, other than sex. I need you to hold my hand, I need you to kiss me, I need you touch me in non sexual ways too. He would tell me, I'm not like that, I have a hard time doing that stuff . I came to accept it but I was never happy. So yes, it's exactly what you are saying, did he do that stuff with/for her after refusing to do it with/for me? I need to know, and I have asked him in a round about way. He said they went to the mall. I asked him if he held her hand. He said no because he was afraid he would see someone we knew. That tells me he wanted to but didn't for specific reasons. Whereas with me, he didn't because it's not who he was. Understand? He is not refusing to do the things with me NOW, but he was. And if he was refusing with me, but doing with her, that's way messed up. No?
> 
> I do want to know how he was with her, but I think it would kill me if I actually knew. At the same time, I need to know what I am reconciling with. I cannot reconcile if he's done things that are deal breakers for me.


You said he’s doing it for you now. Therefore, he is capable of doing it. You’ve already proved that he can and will do what you want, he just didn’t want to.

Also, did he become the magical husband before or after you found out about his affair?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Lovingwife71 said:


> YESSSSS!!!!!! That is EXACTLY what I'm saying. Thank you for saying so easily what I apparently didn't. For years, decades actually, the problem in our marriage was that my husband was not very caring or affectionate. Was he a good person? Yes, for the most part he was. He did not treat me poorly, normally, other than cheating on me, lol. But I did tell him over and over again, I need physical affection, other than sex. I need you to hold my hand, I need you to kiss me, I need you touch me in non sexual ways too. He would tell me, I'm not like that, I have a hard time doing that stuff . I came to accept it but I was never happy. So yes, it's exactly what you are saying, did he do that stuff with/for her after refusing to do it with/for me? I need to know, and I have asked him in a round about way. He said they went to the mall. I asked him if he held her hand. He said no because he was afraid he would see someone we knew. That tells me he wanted to but didn't for specific reasons. Whereas with me, he didn't because it's not who he was. Understand? He is not refusing to do the things with me NOW, but he was. And if he was refusing with me, but doing with her, that's way messed up. No?
> 
> I do want to know how he was with her, but I think it would kill me if I actually knew. At the same time, I need to know what I am reconciling with. I cannot reconcile if he's done things that are deal breakers for me.


In absence of hidden cameras on them every moment they were together, you will probably never know exactly what he did or didn’t do with her.

But you need to ask yourself a couple general questions about what you know about the world.

#1 - is she some kind of unique woman that was sitting there hoping that some married man that was cold and unaffectionate would come along and have disconnected and mechanical sex with her? 

#2 - Does he have some kind of magical penis that is so special and magnificent that the unique woman mentioned in #1 would be so enthralled and gratified that she would be perfectly happy and content to carry on an ongoing affair with said cold and unaffectionate man and have ongoing disconnected and unemotional sex due to his unique and special penis?

You may never know exactly what went on behind closed doors with them. 

But in your Knowledge and experience of how the world works, does #1 and #2 make sense?


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## Lovingwife71 (Mar 28, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> In absence of hidden cameras on them every moment they were together, you will probably never know exactly what he did or didn’t do with her.
> 
> But you need to ask yourself a couple general questions about what you know about the world.
> 
> ...


Uggh! Yes, I know. You are correct. Neither 1 nor 2 makes sense. I spoke to my husband about that previously. I told him before, this woman was getting something from you. She wasn't content just sitting in a car talking to you for 10 or 15 minutes 2 or 3 times per week. She continued the relationship with you because it was satisfying her in some way. When I spoke with her, she told me she was looking for friendship and companionship. Someone to talk to. So that did kind of fit with what he told me. And no, he does not have a magical penis. LOL. Like I said in a previous response, he chose to get involved with a very heavy woman and that backfired on him . They both confirmed technical difficulties, haha. And I don't feel bad AT ALL! So as far as the sex went, I don't think it was all passionate, loving, and magical. Far from it.

As far as #1, I agree with you. I would think there would have to be some sort of affection, but he says no and she confirmed she was looking for friendship and companionship. Funny though, I don't have sex with my friends. Obviously these people who cheat have issues. And married people who cheat with each other are both broken, desperate and flawed. They aren't coming from the healthiest place to begin with, so they aren't going to the healthiest place either. They are seeking comfort from another broken person. Someone as broken as they are. Maybe more so.

After reading your response, I brought it up to him again this morning, and again, he said there was no affection with her. I can't see him being that way, so I do believe him. It's weird seeing him that way now. I don't think he had it in him. 

Like everyone here says, I probably will NEVER know 100%. I need to take what everyone says into consideration, what my husband has told me, how he is now, and make my decision on all the information I have. That's all I can do now. 

Thanks for your advice. You are always so sensible, practical, and unfortunately, spot on.


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## Lovingwife71 (Mar 28, 2018)

QuietRiot said:


> You said he’s doing it for you now. Therefore, he is capable of doing it. You’ve already proved that he can and will do what you want, he just didn’t want to.
> 
> Also, did he become the magical husband before or after you found out about his affair?


Yes I understand what you are saying. And I know why you are asking that question. He became the magical husband after I found out about his affair of course. Don't they all, lol. His affair was 4 years ago and I only found out because he did something very stupid and got fired from his job at the beginning of this year. Do I think he REALLY and TRULY learned from this, I definitely do. Do I think it's too little too late? Maybe. I filed for divorce. So he knows I'm serious. He is messed up from that. He knows I'm not playing around. Am I going to go through with it completely? I'm not sure yet. But he knows there's consequences for what he's done. He became the magical husband before I filed though. FWIW.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

Lovingwife71 said:


> Yes I understand what you are saying. And I know why you are asking that question. He became the magical husband after I found out about his affair of course. Don't they all, lol. His affair was 4 years ago and I only found out because he did something very stupid and got fired from his job at the beginning of this year. Do I think he REALLY and TRULY learned from this, I definitely do. Do I think it's too little too late? Maybe. I filed for divorce. So he knows I'm serious. He is messed up from that. He knows I'm not playing around. Am I going to go through with it completely? I'm not sure yet. But he knows there's consequences for what he's done. He became the magical husband before I filed though. FWIW.


Well if you said he’d become magical husband before you knew, I’d give him more credit at least. Perhaps I’d classify his change in heart redemption and self work. Perhaps permanent and lasting at least that way.

There a difference between someone who is truly remorseful and changed because he desired to be a better man and husband, and there’s what you have; a guy who changes because he’s forced to for selfish reasons having nothing to do with you. He’s not worried about what you deserve, he’s worried about losing what he thinks of best for himself.

Of course this is just my opinion. You have more effort than many BS get when trying to reconcile, regardless of the reasons for doing so. But I’d consider it love bombing if this isn’t who he is. Can he really keep that up? Do you want him to when it’s out of fear of you leaving him and not because he wants to be that guy?


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Lovingwife71 said:


> Uggh! Yes, I know. You are correct. Neither 1 nor 2 makes sense. I spoke to my husband about that previously. I told him before, this woman was getting something from you. She wasn't content just sitting in a car talking to you for 10 or 15 minutes 2 or 3 times per week. She continued the relationship with you because it was satisfying her in some way. When I spoke with her, she told me she was looking for friendship and companionship. Someone to talk to. So that did kind of fit with what he told me. And no, he does not have a magical penis. LOL. Like I said in a previous response, he chose to get involved with a very heavy woman and that backfired on him . They both confirmed technical difficulties, haha. And I don't feel bad AT ALL! So as far as the sex went, I don't think it was all passionate, loving, and magical. Far from it.
> 
> As far as #1, I agree with you. I would think there would have to be some sort of affection, but he says no and she confirmed she was looking for friendship and companionship. Funny though, I don't have sex with my friends. Obviously these people who cheat have issues. And married people who cheat with each other are both broken, desperate and flawed. They aren't coming from the healthiest place to begin with, so they aren't going to the healthiest place either. They are seeking comfort from another broken person. Someone as broken as they are. Maybe more so.
> 
> ...


You're a better person than me. Because I'd laugh my ass off to his face and dump him, just so he knew exactly how stupid it was to blow up a marriage for someone he claimed was so undesirable that the sex wasn't great. I really don't get men like that. Is he an insecure person who needs lots of atta boys? What is he doing to address his need for external validation?

I know you keep saying you're trying to understand, but now it's sounding like you're trying to rationalize his behavior until it's palatable enough for you to rug-sweep.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

TXTrini said:


> You're a better person than me. Because I'd laugh my ass off to his face and dump him, just so he knew exactly how stupid it was to blow up a marriage for someone he claimed was so undesirable that the sex wasn't great. I really don't get men like that. Is he an insecure person who needs lots of atta boys? What is he doing to address his need for external validation?
> 
> I know you keep saying you're trying to understand, but now it's sounding like you're trying to rationalize his behavior until it's palatable enough for you to rug-sweep.


 I don’t see what the draw of this guy is. Unaffectionate until his arm is twisted and he’s the one willing to blow his life up for an “ugly” woman, and use her for self gratification anyway. That makes him a pig, not reconciliation material.


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## Lovingwife71 (Mar 28, 2018)

TXTrini said:


> You're a better person than me. Because I'd laugh my ass off to his face and dump him, just so he knew exactly how stupid it was to blow up a marriage for someone he claimed was so undesirable that the sex wasn't great. I really don't get men like that. Is he an insecure person who needs lots of atta boys? What is he doing to address his need for external validation?
> 
> I know you keep saying you're trying to understand, but now it's sounding like you're trying to rationalize his behavior until it's palatable enough for you to rug-sweep.


Believe me, I did laugh in his face. I told him I don't feel bad at all about what happened. It messed with him and he deserves it. He was always worried that her husband would catch them. I told him, I wish he did. I wish he kicked your ass. He is totally insecure and needs external validation. Absolutely. He said to me, "do you feel good when some guy thinks you are hot or wants you?" I said, "yes, it feels good when someone wants me. It doesn't mean I have to act on it because someone wants me. I can feel good about it without having to F them." He said, "well I've never had that before." I said, "ok and? Still doesn't mean you had to act on it." I'm really not trying to rationalize his behavior. At least I don't feel like I am. Maybe I am. You guys are outside looking in so you are going to see it differently. I have been with him for 27 years, married 23. I have filed for divorce. I'm not sure what else I can do. He is doing everything a reconciling spouse should and could be doing. To me though, I still feel it's too little too late. He knows that. Why do you say I'm rationalizing his behavior? I'm not saying I'm not. Obviously I am broken myself and don't see things clearly. 

I've seen pictures of this woman and met her in person. TRUST ME, she IS beyond ugly! If she were pretty, I'd have said so. Now did HE find her attractive? He said he didn't. He said she was all that would respond to him. Like almost every cheater in the world, they don't look at it as they are willing to blow up their marriage. They look at it as, they are never going to get caught. Their spouse is never going to find out. They don't feel they are risking anything.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

I think you’re a lot smarter — in every way — than he is.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Lovingwife71 said:


> Believe me, I did laugh in his face. I told him I don't feel bad at all about what happened. It messed with him and he deserves it. He was always worried that her husband would catch them. I told him, I wish he did. I wish he kicked your ass. He is totally insecure and needs external validation. Absolutely. He said to me, "do you feel good when some guy thinks you are hot or wants you?" I said, "yes, it feels good when someone wants me. It doesn't mean I have to act on it because someone wants me. I can feel good about it without having to F them." He said, "well I've never had that before." I said, "ok and? Still doesn't mean you had to act on it." I'm really not trying to rationalize his behavior. At least I don't feel like I am. Maybe I am. You guys are outside looking in so you are going to see it differently. I have been with him for 27 years, married 23. I have filed for divorce. I'm not sure what else I can do. He is doing everything a reconciling spouse should and could be doing. To me though, I still feel it's too little too late. He knows that. Why do you say I'm rationalizing his behavior? I'm not saying I'm not. Obviously I am broken myself and don't see things clearly.
> 
> I've seen pictures of this woman and met her in person. TRUST ME, she IS beyond ugly! If she were pretty, I'd have said so. Now did HE find her attractive? He said he didn't. He said she was all that would respond to him. Like almost every cheater in the world, they don't look at it as they are willing to blow up their marriage. They look at it as, they are never going to get caught. Their spouse is never going to find out. They don't feel they are risking anything.


Ok, maybe I misunderstood your motives in looking for explanations, I apologize if I offended you. I'm not trying to be judgmental, just make you think. 

Good for you filing, and showing him the consequences. I'm not saying that to be spiteful, but he made vows to cleave to you and forsake all others. He made deliberate choices, regardless of his "feelings" to break them. 

I get that we're human and make emotionally driven choices sometimes, but we do know what's right and wrong, otherwise there's no hiding and sneaking around. That said, he admitted he's driven by external validation, what is he doing to change that? 

What is "everything" a reconciling spouse should do? 

He's not a safe partner for anyone until he fixes that excessive need for validation to feel good about himself. I think you're focusing on everything else but the crux of the situation. The AP and what she looks like, how he treated her really doesn't matter. In fact, I'd be more worried because she's less attractive, because if he has no standards, what's to keep him from dropping his pants like a good little doggie for more treats?

What is your ultimate goal? I don't want to harass or upset you if what I'm saying is not geared toward it.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

TXTrini said:


> I can understand that.
> 
> It was just odd like you're a flasher running around opening his coat to everyone indiscriminately.


Gawd, all mighty, woman!

Whats up?

..........................................................

I get it.

Individual posters seem to have a knack of getting under our skin.
Those triggers, you know.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

SunCMars said:


> Gawd, all mighty, woman!
> 
> Whats up?
> 
> ...


I wasn't triggered by that, thanks. I simply said what people were thinking.


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## Jimi007 (6 mo ago)

Are you going to follow thru with divorce or reconcile ?


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## Sfort (Sep 28, 2019)

Lovingwife71 said:


> I do want to know how he was with her, but I think it would kill me if I actually knew. At the same time, I need to know what I am reconciling with. I cannot reconcile if he's done things that are deal breakers for me.


Do yourself a favor. Understand that he did things with and for her that he hasn't done with or for you. Imagine the worst possible answers to your questions. Those answers are probably accurate. Be aware that the more answers you get, the more questions you will have. You're going to have to get past it or get rid of him. I'd suggest getting rid of him. You will never again be able to trust him.

If a husband will not hold your hand, he should get marriage counseling, not have an affair. You may be able to kindle or rekindle what's missing in your marriage, but unless you are very lucky, it will not be real on his part. 

I'm sorry you're dealing with this **** show.


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## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

Lovingwife71 said:


> I'm really not trying to rationalize his behavior. At least I don't feel like I am.


There are reasons and explanations for cheating but not excuses.



> I have filed for divorce. I'm not sure what else I can do.


Mentally, that is key. Even if you reconcile, you took back control by filing for divorce.


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## Lovingwife71 (Mar 28, 2018)

TXTrini said:


> Ok, maybe I misunderstood your motives in looking for explanations, I apologize if I offended you. I'm not trying to be judgmental, just make you think.
> 
> Good for you filing, and showing him the consequences. I'm not saying that to be spiteful, but he made vows to cleave to you and forsake all others. He made deliberate choices, regardless of his "feelings" to break them.
> 
> ...


You did not offend me, not at all. I asked for opinions, I don't want kid glove opinions. I know you are trying to make me think, that's EXACTLY what I am looking for.

I know you aren't trying to be spiteful by saying "good for me for filing for divorce." He needs to know I am serious about not accepting what he did.

Everything a spouse who's trying to reconcile should do is, taking responsibility for his actions. He doesn't blame me or our marriage for his actions. He takes responsibility for what he did. He shows remorse. He says he's sorry for what he's done and the pain he's caused me every single day. I am a basket case. I yell and scream at him, tell him to go and I don't want him anymore. He says he will never give up. Some spouses would just walk out the door. Heck, I probably would. He's given me all his PWs, access to his phone, sharing his location, calls me constantly, etc etc. Things like that. He told me he sees the pain he's caused me and he would never do that. (Believe me, I am putting him through hell right now. Yes, he totally deserves it, but I feel most men would be like, F this, I'm out of here).

I actually agree with you about the fact that because she was an ugly dog means he has no standards. I told him that months ago. I said to him, it's worse because you have no standards. You will F ANYTHING. I have no idea who I need to worry about. It doesn't matter if she's fat, thin, pretty, ugly, whatever, if she shows you the slightest bit of attention, you can't be happy that someone finds you attractive. You need to act on that attention and it doesn't matter who it's from. So yes, I feel the same way you do, and I told him that a while ago.

You are not harassing me or upsetting me. You are making me think and that's a good thing. Whether I stay with him or not, I need to be aware of all the stuff you are saying. Thank you for taking the time to reply.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

I was married for decades to a cheater who was addicted to attention from other women. That’s a tough way to live and I don’t recommend it.


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## Lovingwife71 (Mar 28, 2018)

Jimi007 said:


> Are you going to follow thru with divorce or reconcile ?


I am not sure yet. Right now I have filed a fault divorce because I live in Massachusetts. One of the few states that allow that. I have to meet with the attorney again in 2weeks to do the financials. I am going through with as much as I have to, to either finalize or for him to prove himself. I guess whichever comes first. I am beyond broken and f'd up right now. IDK what I want.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

Lovingwife71 said:


> I am not sure yet. Right now I have filed a fault divorce because I live in Massachusetts. One of the few states that allow that. I have to meet with the attorney again in 2weeks to do the financials. I am going through with as much as I have to, to either finalize or for him to prove himself. I guess whichever comes first. I am beyond broken and f'd up right now. IDK what I want.


You could divorce him and ensure he does the right thing by you. Then, if you decide reconcile and start over you will have zero pressure or worry about what you will lose if you divorce. If you decide to marry him again, you can make sure there’s a prenup beforehand. It would make logical sense to do it that way.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

QuietRiot said:


> You could divorce him and ensure he does the right thing by you. Then, if you decide reconcile and start over you will have zero pressure or worry about what you will lose if you divorce. If you decide to marry him again, you can make sure there’s a prenup beforehand. It would make logical sense to do it that way.


Absolutely. Had I been thinking clearly, that’s what would have been best for me the first time I caught him. We needed to totally start all over.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Lovingwife71 said:


> You did not offend me, not at all. I asked for opinions, I don't want kid glove opinions. I know you are trying to make me think, that's EXACTLY what I am looking for.
> 
> I know you aren't trying to be spiteful by saying "good for me for filing for divorce." He needs to know I am serious about not accepting what he did.
> 
> ...


Thanks for responding, I've been concerned that you were taking everything at face value without thinking long-term. Just remember one thing, you never asked for all of this, so you certainly don't owe him a timeline or an answer. You may not know for a long time what you want or what to do next.

Anyway, I'm sure you've been reading around TAM. I felt really vulnerable and on the spot too until I went around reading everyone's experiences and it really sobered me. I hope you make the best decision for you, whatever that ends up being.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Lovingwife71 said:


> Everything a spouse who's trying to reconcile should do is, taking responsibility for his actions. He doesn't blame me or our marriage for his actions. He takes responsibility for what he did. He shows remorse. He says he's sorry for what he's done and the pain he's caused me every single day. I am a basket case. I yell and scream at him, tell him to go and I don't want him anymore. He says he will never give up. Some spouses would just walk out the door. Heck, I probably would. He's given me all his PWs, access to his phone, sharing his location, calls me constantly, etc etc. Things like that. He told me he sees the pain he's caused me and he would never do that. (Believe me, I am putting him through hell right now. Yes, he totally deserves it, but I feel most men would be like, F this, I'm out of here).



Do you think that on some level you are “testing” him to evaluate his actual resolve to remain married to you?

On a similar note, do you think since he is trying to remain married that you are “punishing” him so that he pays the price and and has consequences for actions so he knows the score going forward?

I am not saying either of these things are right or wrong in the big scheme of things, just wondered if you think some of that may be part of it and I wanted to hear your thoughts on that.


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## Lovingwife71 (Mar 28, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> Do you think that on some level you are “testing” him to evaluate his actual resolve to remain married to you?
> 
> On a similar note, do you think since he is trying to remain married that you are “punishing” him so that he pays the price and and has consequences for actions so he knows the score going forward?
> 
> I am not saying either of these things are right or wrong in the big scheme of things, just wondered if you think some of that may be part of it and I wanted to hear your thoughts on that.


Your first question, do I think I'm testing him to evaluate his resolve to remain married to me? ABSOLUTELY!!!!! Why wouldn't I? After what he's done he should prove to me every single day for the rest of my life. He's lucky I stayed with him. It wasn't really just a one time deal. I believe I explained, but I may not have, this affair was 4 years ago and I only found out about it because he just got fired this year for "inappropriate conduct" with a disabled person. A resident at the apartment complex where he worked maintenance. 

Do I think I'm punishing him? I do not think I am punishing him. But he needs to have consequences for his actions. If there's no consequences, what will stop him from repeating those actions? He needs to know going forward that if I do give him a second chance there won't be a third. So yes, he knows the score going forward. I don't think it's wrong or bad at all. I pay the price every day for what he did, the price I'm paying is much bigger than he is paying. If he wants to be with me he'll pay it. If not, good riddance. That's where my head is at right now.


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## Lovingwife71 (Mar 28, 2018)

TXTrini said:


> Thanks for responding, I've been concerned that you were taking everything at face value without thinking long-term. Just remember one thing, you never asked for all of this, so you certainly don't owe him a timeline or an answer. You may not know for a long time what you want or what to do next.
> 
> Anyway, I'm sure you've been reading around TAM. I felt really vulnerable and on the spot too until I went around reading everyone's experiences and it really sobered me. I hope you make the best decision for you, whatever that ends up being.


Thank you for that. I have been reading around TAM and have replied here and there. I've actually read many of yours and they've had an impact. I appreciate everyone sticking around to pass their experiences on to others. I was finally able to post myself about my issue. 

When you said you were concerned I was taking everything at face value without thinking long-term, I'm assuming you meant everything my husband was telling me? You're right, I don't owe him a timeline or an answer. He asks me to promise him this or that and I tell him I can't make any promises. I will not make any promises I feel I may not be able to keep. All I can do is take it day by day right now and he's going to have to accept that's all I can give him at this time. 

It's funny because I would tell him, "I read that all cheaters say this, all cheaters do this, most cheaters have done this." He would say, "but I'm not most people. I'm different." I would say, "you aren't different. You are just like the rest of them." He would tell me that's unfair to say. Then something else would come out about his affair, that everyone here said already. I would tell him, "see they were right about that. They've been right about EVERYTHING so far. You would lie or deny, then later on you would admit the truth and it's just as I read. You are no different than every other cheater." 

I do believe he's been mostly honest with me now at this point. However, I do believe he's made things seem less than they actually were so as to not cause problems. FOR HIM. I honestly do believe his affair was much more than he made it out to be. He wouldn't have had it if it wasn't. I do understand that. I'm a very smart woman. Now I need to decide if I can move forward with him knowing all that.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Lovingwife71 said:


> Thank you for that. I have been reading around TAM and have replied here and there. I've actually read many of yours and they've had an impact. I appreciate everyone sticking around to pass their experiences on to others. I was finally able to post myself about my issue.
> 
> When you said you were concerned I was taking everything at face value without thinking long-term, I'm assuming you meant everything my husband was telling me? You're right, I don't owe him a timeline or an answer. He asks me to promise him this or that and I tell him I can't make any promises. I will not make any promises I feel I may not be able to keep. All I can do is take it day by day right now and he's going to have to accept that's all I can give him at this time.
> 
> ...


Trickle truth is a *****, isn't it? That's why most people will say you can't trust a thing that comes out of a cheater's mouth. Trickle truth is all about minimization and damage control, so anyone who does that is not giving you the unvarnished truth, and is essentially limiting your agency. 

Definitely don't make promises. In any case, some BS who reconciled have found themselves unable to forgive much later on and ended up leaving. The fact is, you don't know how you're going to feel with time. It might be 4 years for him, but it just happened for you. 

Honestly, it doesn't sound like he's remorseful, from what you say, it sounds like he regrets you finding out because now it's inconvenient for him to pay the piper. Anyway, don't feel like you have to make a fixed decision and can't change your mind. He broke your vows, so he's not guaranteed a thing. Mind you, I'm not advocating evening the score by cheating too, that only makes things worse, brings you down to his level, and possibly hurts someone.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Lovingwife71 said:


> Your first question, do I think I'm testing him to evaluate his resolve to remain married to me? ABSOLUTELY!!!!! Why wouldn't I? After what he's done he should prove to me every single day for the rest of my life. He's lucky I stayed with him. It wasn't really just a one time deal. I believe I explained, but I may not have, this affair was 4 years ago and I only found out about it because he just got fired this year for "inappropriate conduct" with a disabled person. A resident at the apartment complex where he worked maintenance.
> 
> Do I think I'm punishing him? I do not think I am punishing him. But he needs to have consequences for his actions. If there's no consequences, what will stop him from repeating those actions? He needs to know going forward that if I do give him a second chance there won't be a third. So yes, he knows the score going forward. I don't think it's wrong or bad at all. I pay the price every day for what he did, the price I'm paying is much bigger than he is paying. If he wants to be with me he'll pay it. If not, good riddance. That's where my head is at right now.


I don’t necessarily disagree with you. ….at all. 

Ultimately you have to decide if you want to divorce or reconcile. 

If you want to divorce and move on, then testing and doling out consequences ultimately ends up being a time and energy waste on time and energy that could otherwise be spent on moving on with your own life. 

If you do decide that you want to reconcile, then that is what becomes what is known as the Turd Sandwich. 

The WS does need to experience ramifications and consequences for the damage they’ve caused. 

But at what point does one go from being the betrayed to being the tormentor? At what point does the WS decide they’ve paid their price and no longer wants to be the the BS’s punching bag? 

This is where marital counseling and therapy can either help, or cause even worse damage. 

This is what Chump Lady calls the Wreckonciliation Industrial Complex (not a typo). It’s a whole industry geared towards making the BS choke down the Turd Sandwich. 

And truthfully some of it comes down to whether you want to be a warden and enforcer going forward? If you want to stay married, do you want to be a punisher? 

Often times it really is quicker, easier and more efficient in getting back to a healthy and happy life to call it game over and walk away. Cry in your pillow for awhile, then brush yourself off and start living the rest of your life as you please going forward vs always being the tester and the enforcer and the punisher. 

It’s one thing to go to war and win the war. But do you want to be at war forever or is there a plan to win the peace?

There’s two ways to win the long term peace.

One is to throw in the towel, walk away and start a new life and do whatever you want as a single person.

The other is to stay and try to reconcile, set boundaries and expectations, always maintain a vigilant eye,,, but at some point will involve choking down the Turd Sandwich. 

Each option has its own set of pros and cons, risks and benefits as well as its own challenges.

Only you can decide what will ultimately be best for you.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

All cheaters say they’re different and their situations are different. I remember telling my husband that most men who cheated lied and deflected and minimized and were repeat offenders. His response was that he wasn’t most men. But he was. There are obviously no guarantees regardless of what the cheater says so ultimately you either risk it or you don’t. What’s not a good idea is to trust 100% again. He’ll likely want you to do that — and assure you that you should — but don’t.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> This is where marital counseling and therapy can either help, or cause even worse damage.


The reason I say this is ultimately MC’s are obligate pragmatists. They cannot be moralists. 

They can help the BS express their hurt and disgust and anger. They can help the BS establish and express boundaries and expectations going forward. 

And they can help the WS understand the pain and damage that they have done and can advise the WS on constructive means of trying to repair the pain and damage as well as to help the WS express their needs in attempt to get their needs met from the BS rather than seeking elsewhere.

But in the end, the MC cannot wield the mighty sword of morality and justice. 

They can point out to the WS how their actions brought pain and damage, but they themselves cannot dole out or enforce punishment and retribution. 

Ultimately the MC will have to do due diligence to remain neutral and not assign values of good vs bad. 

The Turd Sandwich of marital counseling is the BS will ultimately be asked to take accountability of what they did or did not do that contributed to environment that made the affair seem like a good idea to the WS and what they can do going forward that would make the WS want to remain in the marriage and not want to seek comfort elsewhere. 

Many BS’s simply can’t choke down that turd. 

And quite frankly, many if not most should not have to. 

And for some, the fact that they are being asked to do so is a bridge too far and will cause more resentment and bitterness than they already have. 

MC can help some people to open up channels of communication and help each other express their wants and needs and help them to find positive and more effective means of conflict resolution.

But for others, it is too much of a slap in the face and additional insult to injury and they feel in worse shape than they went into it with.


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## Lovingwife71 (Mar 28, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> I don’t necessarily disagree with you. ….at all.
> 
> Ultimately you have to decide if you want to divorce or reconcile.
> 
> ...


Ok, yes I see that. Not that I owed him anything after what he did, but I have integrity, character, and morals. And after 27 years together I did feel I owed him an explanation as to why I was filing for divorce. As if his cheating wasn't reason enough. I told him that at 51 I am already older. I don't want to give him another chance only to find out 10 years or 20 years down the road he's done this again and I should have cut my losses the first time when I was still sort of young enough to move on with my life. I've always trusted him 100% and he went wherever, whenever he wanted. Obviously that was my downfall. Whenever his friends would tell me I wasn't normal because other wives wouldn't let their husbands do anything I would say, "if I can't trust him, if I have to police him, there's no marriage. I am not going to spend my life controlling my husband, that's no way to live." Yet here I am because he took advantage of that trust. So I totally get what you are saying.

It's funny because I also told him, when I first found out about his affair, that I don't think I can ever get over it. That I felt I would always make sure he never forgot it either. Ie. throw digs in all the time. I said to him, "that's not fair to either one of us if I can't let it go." I said to him, "if after a reasonable amount of time I keep doing that, it means I'm not past it and it's not fair to either of us." An affair/cheating was always a deal breaker for me. I always felt if someone cheated on me I would be done with them. Now that I'm in that situation it's not as cut and dry. Now I agree with people who say, you never know what you would do until you are in that situation. But I'm still leaning toward it's a deal breaker. That's why I needed to know if he did things with her that are ABSOLUTE deal breakers. It would push me over the fence much easier I guess. 

I don't want to be his tormentor, I don't want to be his punisher, I don't want to be his warden, I don't want to police him. I don't want any of it. I did not ask for it and I do not want it. I told him that even if I decided to try to work things out now doesn't mean I would still be able to do it in a year or two and that's a waste of time and energy that is not fair to you either. He said he's willing to put that time and energy into it. I said to him, "I don't know if I am." And I truly don't. Right now, I can only go day by day. 

To address the counseling issue in your other post, I take full responsibility for my part of the issues in the marriage. But in NO WAY will I take responsibility for him feeling the need to seek comfort elsewhere, because guess what (and this is rhetorical because I don't need to convince you) I was in the very same marriage, with the very same issues, and I was just as unhappy, and I didn't seek comfort elsewhere. He says he looked for a married woman because they were "in the same boat" as he was. But her situation was WAY different. She was in a rowboat in the middle of the ocean and he was in an inner tube in a swimming pool. I told him, "You know who was in the EXACT same boat as you and you could have talked to about OUR issues?" So yes, I would have a REAL hard time choking down that s#!t sandwich if the counselor tried to even insinuate I had ANY part in my husband's decision the cheat. That's ALL on him. We were both responsible for issues in the marriage and we were both responsible for fixing those issues together. I asked my husband, did your affair fix our issues? The affair was 4 years ago and during it and after it, our issues got worse, not better. I also told him, even if it did fix your issues, which apparently it didn't because he was still miserable, that still didn't fix OUR issues. It wasn't helping the issues in the marriage. Big surprise huh? LOL

Anyway, you've given me a lot to think about. I have read many of your posts here, but I haven't read your story, if you even have one. Did your spouse cheat on you?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Lovingwife71 said:


> I haven't read your story, if you even have one. Did your spouse cheat on you?


My story is spread out over several thousand posts over the last several years and no, I have not to my knowledge been cheated on in marriage that I know of. 

I did have a couple serious, long term relationships cheat on me in my single days that left me heartbroken and shedding tears in my beer, but I have not had to divide up marital assets, make child custody arrangments, sell the house, deal with child support etc etc like many of the posters here. 

Some times not being cheated on marriage can have it's advantages and disadvantages in talking with people that have experienced infidelity. On one hand, I do not truly know what all the BS goes through and I have not experienced firsthand the dissolve of a marriage and loss of the nuclear family unit. 

But, those of us that have not experienced it first hand can also at times have a little more objectivity on some nuts-and-bolts practical matters and realities and some times you can see things a little more objectively when you are not neck deep in it.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

Lovingwife71 said:


> But I'm still leaning toward it's a deal breaker. That's why I needed to know if he did things with her that are ABSOLUTE deal breakers. It would push me over the fence much easier I guess.


I mean, your deal breakers seem to be fluid. What are your deal breakers exactly? They should be deal breakers regardless of what he did, and before he even did them, and shouldn’t change after you find out about it. 

For instance a deal breaker might be - Having sex with someone outside the marriage. 

but your deal breaker is not that… it’s seeming to be - having sex outside the marriage but also enjoying it immensely. 

Or maybe another example is - Behaving inappropriately toward another woman. 

but yours seems to be - behaving inappropriately, IF he was sweet to her and affectionate. 

I think you’re ACTUALLY having issues making this situation palatable enough to eat the sh!t sandwich. You are putting disclaimers on your boundaries because you’re confused about what you want and feel in your own heart. I think you absolutely KNOW how you feel about all this, but there is a lot of scary stuff in the unknown and in leaving someone we’ve been with for a long time. And just watching the history of everything we’ve done seemingly amount to nothing. Vaporize. As though the importance of our life history is burned away when we leave the person. (This is not the truth when you’re on the other side of it)

I think more importantly, figuring out your fears and insecurities will serve you more wisely than fixating on what he did with this other woman in minutiae because he will never disclose the full truth. Especially is he fears the next detail will be “the one” you can’t stomach.


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## Lovingwife71 (Mar 28, 2018)

TXTrini said:


> Trickle truth is a ***, isn't it? That's why most people will say you can't trust a thing that comes out of a cheater's mouth. Trickle truth is all about minimization and damage control, so anyone who does that is not giving you the unvarnished truth, and is essentially limiting your agency.
> 
> Definitely don't make promises. In any case, some BS who reconciled have found themselves unable to forgive much later on and ended up leaving. The fact is, you don't know how you're going to feel with time. It might be 4 years for him, but it just happened for you.
> 
> Honestly, it doesn't sound like he's remorseful, from what you say, it sounds like he regrets you finding out because now it's inconvenient for him to pay the piper. Anyway, don't feel like you have to make a fixed decision and can't change your mind. He broke your vows, so he's not guaranteed a thing. Mind you, I'm not advocating evening the score by cheating too, that only makes things worse, brings you down to his level, and possibly hurts someone.


I would NEVER cheat. Believe me, sometimes it sounds like a good idea to hurt him the way he hurt me, but honestly, for one, I don't think it would hurt him as much, and second, I have too many morals, character and self-respect to stoop to his level. Second of all, if I did cheat, which I wouldn't, but if I did, I CERTAINLY would not with someone I KNEW was married. And because they may not be honest, you are correct, I could possibly hurt someone else. I might cheat with the B!tc#'s BF. Haha. Kidding. 

Can you tell me why you feel he doesn't sound remorseful? He honestly does seem remorseful to me, and I don't want to be duped by him again. 

I told him and the OB (other dog) that I realize for them it's done and over, it's been years, they've moved on from it and it's not a thought in their minds anymore, but for me it's like it's new. It's like it just happened yesterday and I'm not past it like they are. She said, "I wouldn't say it's not a thought in my mind anymore. It was one of the worst choices I've ever made in my life and I regret it." She apologized to me several times. I told her, "your apology means nothing to me. I hate you for what you did to me. My purpose in talking to you now is closure for one but to tell you that there's real people who's lives you destroy when you sleep with their spouse and I hope you will never make that choice again and do to someone else what you did to me." She said she would NEVER make that choice again. I feel I should let her BF know what she did though, so that he is aware she is capable of doing to him what she did to her husband. I almost feel bad doing that, but I feel I should still. I don't know. Thoughts on that? Also, seeing her mother talk about what a wonderful daughter she is on FB, I want to respond to her, is that how you raised your daughter, to cheat? And not only be a cheater but to cheat with other women's husbands? To spread for them in the back seat of her car in the Big Y parking lot. Is that how you raised your kids? I sooooooo want to do that. Is that just being petty? I felt that since this woman gave me the satisfaction of talking to me, I shouldn't do that. But I don't owe her anything. She destroyed my marriage and my life. 

I totally agree he did not give me the full unvarnished truth because he was trying to do damage control. He said that himself. He was afraid I would leave him if I knew everything. I told him, you don't get to decide if I stay or leave. I get to decide what information is a deal breaker for me. You decided unilaterally what you were going to do behind my back for years now. You got to decide that YOU were going to do things that I wouldn't approve of, that YOU were going to try to find your own happiness but I wasn't going to be allowed to do the same, and you decided that you were going to do what you were going to do AND you were also going to keep the marriage, even though you knew I would not agree to those terms. Then you tried to decide what information I was going to get in order to make a decision on the future of the marriage. It was always about what YOU decided. Now it's MY turn to decide. I get to make an informed decision on the future of our marriage. It's not all about you anymore. 

Thanks for all your advice. I do realize everything you are saying. Sometimes you just need to hear it from other people.


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## CoastieDadz93 (11 mo ago)

TXTrini said:


> Serious question...
> 
> Why does every post you make include that you were chased and can have multiple orgasms?
> 
> Do you like to humble brag or something? There's literally no relevance whatsoever 🤔


Wait till his over 50 and see if this still stands, lol..


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## Lovingwife71 (Mar 28, 2018)

QuietRiot said:


> I mean, your deal breakers seem to be fluid. What are your deal breakers exactly? They should be deal breakers regardless of what he did, and before he even did them, and shouldn’t change after you find out about it.
> 
> For instance a deal breaker might be - Having sex with someone outside the marriage.
> 
> ...


Sorry, yes I know it sounds a little confusing. What I'm trying to say is many people, myself included, can say, Yep, cheating is absolutely a deal breaker for me. But once you are in that situation, depending on the circumstances involved, it may not be so black and white. Being in that situation now, it's harder to just say, Yep, it's over. But I am still leaning that way. Things he may have done are deal breakers and would push me over the fence. 

Yes, you are totally right. If my NON AFFECTIONATE husband was sweet, loving, and affectionate with this woman it is a deal breaker because the problems in our marriage, at least on my side, were because he wasn't that way. So if he was with her, WHY? Why would he give her what he REFUSED to give me? He told me that's not who he is and I would have to accept that. From what I am gathering from him, there was some affection for them on his part and I don't understand why. So yes, that is my deal breaker. Just like men who want an*l so badly from their wives but she refuses to do it but yet does it with her AP. He wonders why with him but not me. 

I do know what I want and how I feel about this. You're totally right. What he did, cheating, and what he did, showing her affection, are deal breakers. And I am having trouble making it palatable enough to swallow the sh!t sandwich. He is proving to me that he's not doing anything now. He feels he's proving that he will never do it again. I keep explaining to him, at this point it isn't about that, it's about what he DID. I cannot accept it. He says, "but that was the past. I can't change it; I can't take it back. I can only move forward." I'm like, "so that makes it ok? I can't change how I feel about it either." I am having more of a problem tolerating his past behavior than worrying about what he might or might not do in the future.

I don't feel that all the time we've spent together will just vaporize and amount to nothing. There was a lot of good in the marriage. We have a wonderful son who is SOOOOOOO successful. At 23 years old he has a great job and makes more than his father. But most importantly, I've learned a lot about relationships. I've learned what work is involved, I've learned not to trust blindly and naively, and I've learned the signs of an affair, which I saw them but ignored them. I will never do that again. So I do feel a lot of good came from that time together. I am just very confused right now. I need time to make a decision. I also need a reality check from the people here. Thanks


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

Lovingwife71 said:


> He says, "but that was the past. I can't change it; I can't take it back. I can only move forward." I'm like, "so that makes it ok? I can't change how I feel about it either." I am having more of a problem tolerating his past behavior than worrying about what he might or might not do in the future.


What kind of ridiculous argument is that? I could make an argument that you should kick him right in the nads and say, “Well, it’s in the past. I can’t change it, we can only move forward now.” 

So because something has already happened, it’s no longer relevant or worth thinking about. Astounding.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

CoastieDadz93 said:


> Wait till his over 50 and see if this still stands, lol..


If I'm not mistaken he is around 70.


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## Lovingwife71 (Mar 28, 2018)

BigDaddyNY said:


> If I'm not mistaken he is around 70.


Then maybe he's reliving his younger years  .


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Lovingwife71 said:


> I would NEVER cheat. Believe me, sometimes it sounds like a good idea to hurt him the way he hurt me, but honestly, for one, I don't think it would hurt him as much, and second, I have too many morals, character and self-respect to stoop to his level. Second of all, if I did cheat, which I wouldn't, but if I did, I CERTAINLY would not with someone I KNEW was married. And because they may not be honest, you are correct, I could possibly hurt someone else. I might cheat with the B!tc#'s BF. Haha. Kidding.
> 
> Can you tell me why you feel he doesn't sound remorseful? He honestly does seem remorseful to me, and I don't want to be duped by him again.
> 
> ...


Oh I'm not saying you would, at all. Some people like to claim that anyone is capable of cheating, but I wonder how much of that paradigm is a cop-out for lack of empathy, a sense of fairness and self control. As someone whose e dured a lot of pain in my life,, the LAST thing I'd want to do is intentionally inflict any pain on another, especially someone I say I love.

This is why I think people who can entertain event the thought of disloyalty and deceit are a completely different breed and simply incompatibility with people who think like us. Now, I'm not claiming to be any kind of saint, or trying to elevate us, I have plenty of faults. It's just that after seeing and rrad8ng countless cheating stories, it comes down to the cheater choosing to please themselves or matter what at the expense of other people. That's not love to me, at least not one I want. 

The reason I say I think he lacks remorse is due to a few things...
1. You found out 4 years later because he got fired
2. You mentioned he said he never planned to leave you, so he neatly compartmentalized his affair to get his side thrills, while coming home to you and enjoying 100% of what you had to offer for 4 years all the while knowing what he'd done.
3. Both of you had different views of your marriage, you felt the chasm while he was cheating, but he thought it was all good.
4. He only started "changing" after his deeds came out and you filed for divorce. 
5. The subtle or not so subtle pressure on you to forgive him and reconcile now, it's like glossing over your feelings like they don't matter. You should get over it already, so you can move on together because now it suits him.

I suppose my idea of a truly remorseful person is someone who takes ownership of their misdeeds, admits them and addresses them immediately, not when their hand is forced. I would question why now, why they suddenly value me now. 

Maybe I'm not a very forgiving person when it comes to that level of betrayal, enough to see them everyday afterwards. I understand the desire to punish to see if he's willing to tolerate it to move forward, but do you truly like the person you're becoming doing that? Or is he dragging you down into the abyss with him? 

I honestly couldn't say why any cheater does what they do, but I had to reign myself in to to stop trying to figure out their motives, because it truly didn't matter because even knowing that wouldn't change reality. Or make someone into who I thought he was. I had a lot to figure out too, when I was in your shoes and you know it didn't really hit me what I had to do until I had to sign an agreement for school (I went back to rebuild myself, I was in a truly pathetic state at the time, nowhere as together as you are now) and part of it was to agree not to lie, cheat or steal or condone those who do. 

Recovery from that kind of betrayal is truly a journey that makes you reevaluate your life and everything you thought you knew. Maybe your WH will change one day, but he is exactly the person he chose to be.


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## Jimi007 (6 mo ago)

Lovingwife71 said:


> I would NEVER cheat. Believe me, sometimes it sounds like a good idea to hurt him the way he hurt me, but honestly, for one, I don't think it would hurt him as much, and second, I have too many morals, character and self-respect to stoop to his level. Second of all, if I did cheat, which I wouldn't, but if I did, I CERTAINLY would not with someone I KNEW was married. And because they may not be honest, you are correct, I could possibly hurt someone else. I might cheat with the B!tc#'s BF. Haha. Kidding.
> 
> Can you tell me why you feel he doesn't sound remorseful? He honestly does seem remorseful to me, and I don't want to be duped by him again.
> 
> ...


Smart girl...


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## DonJuan (Oct 20, 2021)

Lovingwife71 said:


> If this has been addressed already I haven't seen it, so I apologize if so. I have read several threads and posts on TAM about how when a woman cheats she will do sexual things with her AP that she wouldn't normally do with her significant other, such as oral or anal sex. I am wondering if the same is true for men and what those things might be. It doesn't even have to be sexual things. What things might a man do with or for his AP that he normally wouldn't do with or for his significant other? For example, is he more affectionate, more passionate, does he care more about her pleasure, does he buy her more expensive gifts, does he take her to fancier places?


It’s true for some cheating men. I didn’t like anal sex, she did. I liked receiving oral sex, but she wouldn’t give it, although she wanted it, but it doesn’t last long when it’s all one sided. She would try to justify why I should perform oral sex but she shouldn’t. I cheated in the first year of our marriage. I was doing nice things for prostitutes because they were doing nice things for me, but not for my wife, she was very mean and rude. I would stay away from here.


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## DonJuan (Oct 20, 2021)

oldtruck said:


> 30 years reading infidelity website forums I have read more threads that went for page
> upon page where the the BH complained that there WW gave the OM more than they gave
> their own BH and did many things for the OM that they refuse to do for their BH before their
> PA and now after D day still refuse to do for their BH during attempted recovery.
> ...


The same is true for men. We’re spending time with these women because their not mean and rude like our wives. Their not one sided when it comes to sex. I bought a prostitutes child a toy for Christmas and it made my wife mad. I got to do things and experience acts that I never did with my wife.


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## Lovingwife71 (Mar 28, 2018)

DonJuan said:


> The same is true for men. We’re spending time with these women because their not mean and rude like our wives. Their not one sided when it comes to sex. I bought a prostitutes child a toy for Christmas and it made my wife mad. I got to do things and experience acts that I never did with my wife.


Did you ever think maybe your wife was mean and rude because she wasn't getting something (some need) met from you? I wasn't mean and rude to my husband, but I was moody because I was unhappy. I was unhappy because like him, I was unfulfilled and my needs weren't being met. If your wife is being mean and rude, I can guarantee you she has resentments over unmet needs too. It isn't always all about your needs. Cheaters often think it is. If your wife is being mean and rude, talk to her about it, like REALLY talk to her. If it doesn't change, divorce her. Don't cheat on her and risk her health by sleeping with skanks.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

DonJuan said:


> The same is true for men. We’re spending time with these women because their not mean and rude like our wives. Their not one sided when it comes to sex. I bought a prostitutes child a toy for Christmas and it made my wife mad. I got to do things and experience acts that I never did with my wife.


There is just so much wrong with this paragraph.


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## Luckylucky (Dec 11, 2020)

My dad was so different with his AP it was shocking. He was a monster; and then this other person when he was ‘courting’ her. I don’t think she liked him either anyway, her mother could see right through him.


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## Butforthegrace (Oct 6, 2021)

The question posed in this thread invites either broad generalizations, or highly specific anecdotal responses. 

The biggest sexual organ lies between the ears. What cheaters do sexually with their AP's is driven mostly by the mental vortex they get themselves into that leads them to cheat. Cheating is usually a reactive process, and it is usually a reaction to some deep-down pathos or existential crisis inside of the WS that morphs into a vortex, normally starting with self-pity but then leading to bad decisions.

The specific sexual acts, that's a function of opportunity, the nature/character of the AP, and the motivation/drive of the WS.


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## snowbum (Dec 14, 2021)

DonJuan said:


> The same is true for men. We’re spending time with these women because their not mean and rude like our wives. Their not one sided when it comes to sex. I bought a prostitutes child a toy for Christmas and it made my wife mad. I got to do things and experience acts that I never did with my wife.


Why are you married?


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## DonJuan (Oct 20, 2021)

snowbum said:


> Why are you married?


I’m not


Lovingwife71 said:


> Did you ever think maybe your wife was mean and rude because she wasn't getting something (some need) met from you? I wasn't mean and rude to my husband, but I was moody because I was unhappy. I was unhappy because like him, I was unfulfilled and my needs weren't being met. If your wife is being mean and rude, I can guarantee you she has resentments over unmet needs too. It isn't always all about your needs. Cheaters often think it is. If your wife is being mean and rude, talk to her about it, like REALLY talk to her. If it doesn't change, divorce her. Don't cheat on her and risk her health by sleeping with skanks.


if I was being mean and rude to her because of some need not met by her, would that make sense? I think the verbally abusive spouse is responsible for their words.


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## DonJuan (Oct 20, 2021)

DonJuan said:


> I’m not
> 
> if I was being mean and rude to her because of some need not met by her, would that make sense? I think the verbally abusive spouse is responsible for their words.


Again, when someone is being abusive, it is not because of their unmet needs. It’s because they choose to be abusive. If we’re not responsible for being abusive, then we can all be abusive and blame our spouse, like when we cheat.


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## DonJuan (Oct 20, 2021)

QuietRiot said:


> There is just so much wrong with this paragraph.


I got C’s in English.


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## Lovingwife71 (Mar 28, 2018)

Butforthegrace said:


> The question posed in this thread invites either broad generalizations, or highly specific anecdotal responses.
> 
> The biggest sexual organ lies between the ears. What cheaters do sexually with their AP's is driven mostly by the mental vortex they get themselves into that leads them to cheat. Cheating is usually a reactive process, and it is usually a reaction to some deep-down pathos or existential crisis inside of the WS that morphs into a vortex, normally starting with self-pity but then leading to bad decisions.
> 
> The specific sexual acts, that's a function of opportunity, the nature/character of the AP, and the motivation/drive of the WS.


Thank you. This was very helpful. Not only for how my husband may or may not have interact with his AP, but also how I interacted with my husband in the past. I can't explain it here, but makes a lot of sense now. Thanks for your response.


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## Lovingwife71 (Mar 28, 2018)

DonJuan said:


> I got C’s in English.


I don't think she meant grammatically


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## Lovingwife71 (Mar 28, 2018)

DonJuan said:


> Again, when someone is being abusive, it is not because of their unmet needs. It’s because they choose to be abusive. If we’re not responsible for being abusive, then we can all be abusive and blame our spouse, like when we cheat.


If your wife was/is abusive you should have gotten out of the marriage, not cheated on her. Why would you stay in an abusive marriage. You do know that cheating is the BIGGEST form of emotional and mental abuse right? So you figured since your wife was abusive, you'd join her and become abusive yourself? What you did is the same as a betrayed spouse who chooses to have a revenge affair. Two wrongs don't make a right.


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## DonJuan (Oct 20, 2021)

Lovingwife71 said:


> If your wife was/is abusive you should have gotten out of the marriage, not cheated on her. Why would you stay in an abusive marriage. You do know that cheating is the BIGGEST form of emotional and mental abuse right? So you figured since your wife was abusive, you'd join her and become abusive yourself? What you did is the same as a betrayed spouse who chooses to have a revenge affair. Two wrongs don't make a right.


I agree, I should have divorced in the first year for abuse.


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## DonJuan (Oct 20, 2021)

DonJuan said:


> I agree, I should have divorced in the first year for abuse.


I don’t think it’s the same as a revenge affair. When I would get even, I would say “ I hate you” back to her, but of course that never helped. I thought a revenge affair was if I had sex with another person, just because they did.


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## DonJuan (Oct 20, 2021)

snowbum said:


> Why are you married?


I’m not


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## DonJuan (Oct 20, 2021)

Lovingwife71 said:


> Did you ever think maybe your wife was mean and rude because she wasn't getting something (some need) met from you? I wasn't mean and rude to my husband, but I was moody because I was unhappy. I was unhappy because like him, I was unfulfilled and my needs weren't being met. If your wife is being mean and rude, I can guarantee you she has resentments over unmet needs too. It isn't always all about your needs. Cheaters often think it is. If your wife is being mean and rude, talk to her about it, like REALLY talk to her. If it doesn't change, divorce her. Don't cheat on her and risk her health by sleeping with skanks.


resentment-bitter indignation over being treated unfairly. Resentment over unmet needs. Yeah, works both ways or it doesn’t work.


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## snowbum (Dec 14, 2021)

DonJuan said:


> resentment-bitter indignation over being treated unfairly. Resentment over unmet needs. Yeah, works both ways or it doesn’t work.


Why are you still married


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## NotEZ (Sep 23, 2012)

snowbum said:


> Why are you still married


He has repeatedly answered that he is NOT married anymore.

Sent from my SM-G781W using Tapatalk


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## Kput (3 mo ago)

QuietRiot said:


> Husbands do not have a affairs because they aren’t getting something from their wife.
> 
> This is incorrect, let's take Jim, Jim's wife is a reluctant once a month provider of vanilla sex and considers this to be "doing her marital duties".
> 
> ...


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## DonJuan (Oct 20, 2021)

gameopoly5 said:


> Society perceives women cheating as more taboo than men cheating.
> Rightly or wrongly that`s the way it is and has always been.
> Today, it is likely many women are cheating as much as the men, perhaps more because no one knows the exact numbers of women who cheat.
> Cheating is a human condition, not a mistake but a choice people make.
> ...


Why wouldn’t a cheating husband do more things sexually with his lover than with his wife? If he’s already getting oral sex, then why cheat for it?


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## DonJuan (Oct 20, 2021)

DonJuan said:


> Why wouldn’t a cheating husband do more things sexually with his lover than with his wife? If he’s already getting oral sex, then why cheat for it?


I think my cheating meant I was checking out of the marriage, looking back.


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## DonJuan (Oct 20, 2021)

DonJuan said:


> Why wouldn’t a cheating husband do more things sexually with his lover than with his wife? If he’s already getting oral sex, then why cheat for it?


You must mean some men, because I done a lot more sexually with my AP, than with my wife.


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## Kput (3 mo ago)

???? Is this some split personality thing.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

Kput said:


> This is incorrect, let's take Jim, Jim's wife is a reluctant once a month provider of vanilla sex and considers this to be "doing her marital duties".
> 
> Then along comes Jill, Jill's married but feels neglected, Jim gives attention and affection which switches Jill's drive into ultra hd and then offers Jim "all around the world" sex and makes Jim feel wanted and desired which he never gets from his wife.
> 
> So yes he is getting he isn't getting from his wife.


Im not sure why you quoted me saying things I didn’t but I’m assuming those are your thoughts. 

So vanilla sex is the thing that makes affairs acceptable? Why stop there? How about he doesn’t like how her stomach looks, or she smells like cilantro or her lasagna sucks...Hey maybe she’s decided his **** is too small or he is too hairy or he isn’t affectionate enough, so she is going to cheat on him. Are these acceptable reasons in your “cheat o meter” that people cheat?


People don’t cheat or do anything BECAUSE of what someone else does. They cheat because of attitudes, delusions, and prevailing beliefs that allow them to justify their own actions. 

There are healthy ways of dealing with issues in a marriage, cheating is never an acceptable choice for subjective beliefs. Do you know what are healthy choices? Communication, counseling or even divorce.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

DonJuan said:


> You must mean some men, because I done a lot more sexually with my AP, than with my wife.


Wasn't your "AP" a paid sex worker? They will do anything you are willing to pay for, not exactly a good comparison.


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## Lovingwife71 (Mar 28, 2018)

DonJuan said:


> I don’t think it’s the same as a revenge affair. When I would get even, I would say “ I hate you” back to her, but of course that never helped. I thought a revenge affair was if I had sex with another person, just because they did.


Sorry, I didn't explain myself well. I'm not always the best at communication. I should have said what you did was SIMILAR to, not the SAME THING as a revenge affair. You had an affair to "get back" at your wife for her abuse. Or maybe you didn't. I don't know your thoughts or feelings. I think that's the case though because you are justifying your affair by saying "well, she was abusive, that's why I did it." (I'm paraphrasing of course). NOTHING justifies her abuse. Absolutely nothing. But you having an affair just lowers you to her level, lower than her level in my opinion because she obviously has issues she needs help with. That doesn't excuse her behavior or make it your problem. It also doesn't excuse you having an affair. As you said, you should have left as soon as the abuse started or insisted she get help or you would divorce her. That's what I was trying to say.


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## Kput (3 mo ago)

QuietRiot said:


> Im not sure why you quoted me saying things I didn’t but I’m assuming those are your thoughts.
> 
> So vanilla sex is the thing that makes affairs acceptable? Why stop there? How about he doesn’t like how her stomach looks, or she smells like cilantro or her lasagna sucks...Hey maybe she’s decided his **** is too small or he is too hairy or he isn’t affectionate enough, so she is going to cheat on him. Are these acceptable reasons in your “cheat o meter” that people cheat?
> 
> ...


Firstly my apologies for any misquote, I did it in the usual way so who knows

The statement I responded to was "husband's do not have affairs because of something they are not getting from their wife"

And I postulated that they indeed do get something the wife does not provide and gave an hypothetical example, nowhere did I condone it.

All the other examples you give could be reasons to cheat for somebody.


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## Kput (3 mo ago)

Btw, here are reasons I could possibly cheat.

Infidelity on my wife's part, a revenge affair would certainly be on the cards.

Her getting fat other than for non medical reasons.

But just because they are reasons I probably would separate instead.


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## snowbum (Dec 14, 2021)

Your wife gains 20 pounds you cheat? Nice


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## Kput (3 mo ago)

Btw, here are reasons I could possibly cheat.

Infidelity on my wife's part, a revenge affair would certainly be on the cards.

Her getting fat other than for non medical reasons.

But just because they are reasons I probably would separate instead


snowbum said:


> Your wife gains 20 pounds you cheat? Nice


Did you miss the non medical reasons part.


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## snowbum (Dec 14, 2021)

No I saw it but you do realize that as women age it’s harder to keep weight off even with limiting diet and exercise


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## Lovingwife71 (Mar 28, 2018)

Kput said:


> Btw, here are reasons I could possibly cheat.
> 
> Infidelity on my wife's part, a revenge affair would certainly be on the cards.
> 
> ...


I'm with Snowbum on this one. If your wife gained weight due to a medical issue, that's fine, but if she put on 20 lbs just because of age or whatever, that's an excuse to cheat? Just WOW!!!!! There's really no excuse to cheat, but I could see if there were issues in the marriage that lead to no sex for quite some time. That's still not an excuse, but maybe one could understand. Your wife gaining 20 lbs, nope, can't comprehend that one at all! And a revenge affair is just stooping to their level. It doesn't set the record right. 

At 5'3" 105 lbs, I was too thin for my husband. He let me know that all the time. I was skinny, I was bony, he liked bbws. Couple that with the fact that I didn't always want to go to bed at the same time as he did, and he felt justified in having an affair. We still had sex, but there were times I would come to bed late (I admit that) like midnight or 1am and initiate at that time. But because I didn't come to bed at 10pm, it meant I didn't WANT him and he needed to feel wanted by another [email protected]#. A bbw no less. My revenge, I lost another 10 lbs😋


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## Kput (3 mo ago)

I said they were reasons not that I would indulge them, but to respond to your weight part.

My wife is 45 as am I (we share the same birthday) she is a UK size 10 and on some occasions a size 8 due to "vanity" sizing. She is 5ft 7 inches and weighs 121 pounds, she maintains this by working out most every day both cardio and weights. People don't "get fat with age" some people just get lazy with age.

As before medical reasons aside.


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## Kput (3 mo ago)

Btw LW71 my best wishes and good luck whatever route you take.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

Kput said:


> Firstly my apologies for any misquote, I did it in the usual way so who knows
> 
> The statement I responded to was "husband's do not have affairs because of something they are not getting from their wife"
> 
> ...


If you believe that people have reasons for cheating that lay outside their own control, ie, she does this which MAKES me do that; then you are the perfect example of a person who would happily cheat. OR who would rug sweep and do the pick me dance because you think you can control the cheater with your actions. 

Good luck either way.


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## Kput (3 mo ago)

QuietRiot said:


> If you believe that people have reasons for cheating that lay outside their own control, ie, she does this which MAKES me do that; then you are the perfect example of a person who would happily cheat. OR who would rug sweep and do the pick me dance because you think you can control the cheater with your actions.
> 
> Good luck either way.


QR, The original question was as previously stated, can the cheating husband get something from his ap that his wife cannot or will not provide, THE ANSWER IS QUITE OBVIOUSLY YES. This has NOTHING AT ALL WITH CONDONING THE CHEATS ACTIONS. I have never claimed it is outside anyone's control or anyone makes a cheat, cheat.

That said I can on occasion and depending on the circumstances understand and even sympathise with a cheater THIS DOES NOT MEAN I CONDONE IT.

As for me rug sweeping or doing a pick me dance you are well off target, I know my value and amongst the over forties it is high and a quality replacement for my wife would not be to hard I even have a good idea who it would be. As for me cheating why the fck would I, my wife is both emotionally, physically and at long last sexually a perfect match.


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## DonJuan (Oct 20, 2021)

Kput said:


> QR, The original question was as previously stated, can the cheating husband get something from his ap that his wife cannot or will not provide, THE ANSWER IS QUITE OBVIOUSLY YES. This has NOTHING AT ALL WITH CONDONING THE CHEATS ACTIONS. I have never claimed it is outside anyone's control or anyone makes a cheat, cheat.
> 
> That said I can on occasion and depending on the circumstances understand and even sympathise with a cheater THIS DOES NOT MEAN I CONDONE IT.
> 
> As for me rug sweeping or doing a pick me dance you are well off target, I know my value and amongst the over forties it is high and a quality replacement for my wife would not be to hard I even have a good idea who it would be. As for me cheating why the fck would I, my wife is both emotionally, physically and at long last sexually a perfect match.


I just love those honest answers.


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## DonJuan (Oct 20, 2021)

QuietRiot said:


> If you believe that people have reasons for cheating that lay outside their own control, ie, she does this which MAKES me do that; then you are the perfect example of a person who would happily cheat. OR who would rug sweep and do the pick me dance because you think you can control the cheater with your actions.
> 
> Good luck either way.


Since you brought it up, I would like to ask are the excuses for cheating the same as reasons? Should we call an excuse a reason? Yes, I understand that not everybody is always using the same definitions or see the situation the same. I would not condone cheating and dishonesty either. I can’t understand how a spouse can truly love someone if their selfish act is going to cause them harm. Love does no harm to its neighbors or anyone.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

Kput said:


> QR, The original question was as previously stated, can the cheating husband get something from his ap that his wife cannot or will not provide, THE ANSWER IS QUITE OBVIOUSLY YES. This has NOTHING AT ALL WITH CONDONING THE CHEATS ACTIONS. I have never claimed it is outside anyone's control or anyone makes a cheat, cheat.
> 
> That said I can on occasion and depending on the circumstances understand and even sympathise with a cheater THIS DOES NOT MEAN I CONDONE IT.
> 
> As for me rug sweeping or doing a pick me dance you are well off target, I know my value and amongst the over forties it is high and a quality replacement for my wife would not be to hard I even have a good idea who it would be. As for me cheating why the fck would I, my wife is both emotionally, physically and at long last sexually a perfect match.


Sigh. Ok. There are no reasons for cheating that are external to a cheater. It’s simply a choice. And you don’t understand that people DO cheat on their emotional, physical, and sexual perfect match…. Because they want to. The void is in the person cheating not in what others are or are not providing. Their supposed reasons for doing it are a moot point.

We are running circles here but I think you’re focusing on something that has no bearing on why someone cheats. That’s my point.


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## DonJuan (Oct 20, 2021)

Kput said:


> ???? Is this some split personality thing.


Sorry about that. I’m new. Just didn’t realize what I did.


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## DonJuan (Oct 20, 2021)

Lovingwife71 said:


> Sorry, I didn't explain myself well. I'm not always the best at communication. I should have said what you did was SIMILAR to, not the SAME THING as a revenge affair. You had an affair to "get back" at your wife for her abuse. Or maybe you didn't. I don't know your thoughts or feelings. I think that's the case though because you are justifying your affair by saying "well, she was abusive, that's why I did it." (I'm paraphrasing of course). NOTHING justifies her abuse. Absolutely nothing. But you having an affair just lowers you to her level, lower than her level in my opinion because she obviously has issues she needs help with. That doesn't excuse her behavior or make it your problem. It also doesn't excuse you having an affair. As you said, you should have left as soon as the abuse started or insisted she get help or you would divorce her. That's what I was trying to say.


The abuse just kept us from asking for sex or wanting sex, or wanting to try new things, or wanting to explore our sexuality. Hard to have sex with someone after we’ve both been screaming, yelling, and insulting each other. She could do it, but I couldn’t.


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## snowbum (Dec 14, 2021)

You object but have your lust of reasons justifying it and the person. Why do that ic you’d never cheat. I might be the only one but saying you know who’s you replace your wife with seems cold.


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## Kput (3 mo ago)

Sigh away QR. People cheat for an almost infinity of reasons.

If I had cheated on my wife during her twelve year ld period it would not have been due to not desiring her because I did, neither would it have been because I didn't admire her because I do, I would not of been because I didn't love her because I do, hi it would not have been because I am not proud of her because I am, IT WOULD HAVE BEEN BECAUSE I WASN'T GETTING THE SEXUAL VARIETY I DESIRED but the amazing things she brings to our relationship outweighed my sexual desire for variety.

No one including my wife would have "pushed" me to cheat, my desire for variety with my wife which was not available at the time would possibly have lead me to cheat so as no to indulge the desire elsewhere. Is that so hard to understand and extrapolate to other people's situations.

And this goes back to the ORIGINAL statement that lack of something in your marriage DOES NOT cause you to cheat because on occasion it does.

Bottom line some people cheat because of of a perceived lack in their relationship and see a way to indulge the perceived lack.


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## Kput (3 mo ago)

Hi Snowbum, "cold" not really it is just that I (and my wife) is aware that one of the duty managers at our local seems to have a thing for me and always flirts with me. She is quite attractive and if I was not in a relationship I would probably ask her out.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

DonJuan said:


> Since you brought it up, I would like to ask are the excuses for cheating the same as reasons? Should we call an excuse a reason? Yes, I understand that not everybody is always using the same definitions or see the situation the same. I would not condone cheating and dishonesty either. I can’t understand how a spouse can truly love someone if their selfish act is going to cause them harm. Love does no harm to its neighbors or anyone.


No. I don’t believe the reasons and excuses are the same thing. A person might call something a reason when it’s actually an excuse though. 


Kput said:


> Sigh away QR. People cheat for an almost infinity of reasons.
> 
> If I had cheated on my wife during her twelve year ld period it would not have been due to not desiring her because I did, neither would it have been because I didn't admire her because I do, I would not of been because I didn't love her because I do, hi it would not have been because I am not proud of her because I am, IT WOULD HAVE BEEN BECAUSE I WASN'T GETTING THE SEXUAL VARIETY I DESIRED but the amazing things she brings to our relationship outweighed my sexual desire for variety.
> 
> ...


You keep missing my point. I don’t care what a cheaters perception is, their perception is obviously filled with victim mentality, gaslighting, and deceit. Who cares what their perception is.

The CAUSE of the cheating is not the spouse, ever. It’s the choice to cheat instead of be assertive and work on the problem, get help with the problem, or divorce before screwing around.

It’s the choice to take advantage of the things they want from being married and then go get whatever else they decide they want elsewhere too and hide it, they don’t want an open marriage… no, they want their spouse to be in the dark thinking the relationship is monogomous. Because they don’t want their spouse to screw around on them! See how that works?

It’s the choice to act like a coward and a victim instead of saying they aren’t responsible, respectful, mature and assertive enough to handle their marriage issues.


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## Kput (3 mo ago)

I never said the cause of the cheating is the spouse, the cause of the cheating is the cheaters desire for something the spouse is unwilling or unable to provide. This does not mean the spouse is at fault for the cheaters affair.

Jill will only accept having sex once a fortnight, missionary only, Jill has every right to insist that is her limit, Jim however wants "all around the world" sex, the fact that Jim has these desires in not Jill's fault but the mismatch between then is the excuse/reason for the affair, not the ld spouse.

Can I understand Jim's position? Certainly, been there and could have done that but because I didn't do that does not mean I don't understand how it could happen.

If my wife had not had a shock to her certainties and the return of her pre children ultra sex drive I could of possibly gone off piste eventually although I doubt it.

Put together sexual frustration with a bad argument coupled with resentment Anderson an opportunity and a lot of people could be at least tempted.


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## snowbum (Dec 14, 2021)

So what you are essentially saying is do everything the man wants or expect him to at least want to cheat. Ok


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

Kput said:


> I never said the cause of the cheating is the spouse, the cause of the cheating is the cheaters desire for something the spouse is unwilling or unable to provide. This does not mean the spouse is at fault for the cheaters affair.
> 
> Jill will only accept having sex once a fortnight, missionary only, Jill has every right to insist that is her limit, Jim however wants "all around the world" sex, the fact that Jim has these desires in not Jill's fault but the mismatch between then is the excuse/reason for the affair, not the ld spouse.
> 
> ...


No you don’t get it. Cheaters decide they aren’t getting something, then lie and deceive the spouse because they don’t want the SAME done to them. That’s called being a coward. There is no excuse, reason or possibility that they are cheating for any other reason besides they care about their own desires and only their desires at the COST to the spouse they are lying to. 

Here is a perfectly alternative to cheating, “I’m not getting the level of kinky sex with cucumbers that I want from you. Either you give it to me, or I will go find a street Ho to give me my cucumber loving.” This is not called cheating, this is called an ultimatum.

Cheating is lying, deceit, betrayal, and refusal to give the spouse the right to make their own choices because of subterfuge and gaslighting. You cannot present one reasonable explanation for someone to behave this way or convince me I should feel sorry for or empathize with them. I can’t empathize with cowardice and backstabbing.


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## snowbum (Dec 14, 2021)

If you feel respect and value your wife you should want to work together to improve your sex life. If you immediately go “ that bar fly us hot” you don’t love your wife. You love your ****.


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## Kput (3 mo ago)

"cheaters lie and deceive because they don't want the SAME thing done to them" that statement defies logic.


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## Kput (3 mo ago)

snowbum said:


> If you feel respect and value your wife you should want to work together to improve your sex life. If you immediately go “ that bar fly us hot” you don’t love your wife. You love your ****.


Dear deity Snowbum I sometimes would swear you are on a windup.

First thing why use a pejorative term like "barfly" she is one of the managers of the bar and a friend of my wife and I, not so long ago we attended her 35th birthday party and yes I find her attractive both physically and personality wise that does not mean I am going to have an affair with her.

One of my favourite clothes shops is All Saints the staff tend to be attractive and the girls wear the clothing they sell I find them attractive as well, this does not mean I am on the pull everytime i visit the store.

I am human I find some women attractive and even sexually desirable this does not make me an cheat because cheating in the mind is bulls... 

As for improving our sex life it now does not need improving, since the shock to my wife's certainties it is off the scale with all of our pre children repertoire on offer.


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## Kput (3 mo ago)

Anyway I have paperwork to complete before attending a site meeting so have a nice day 👍


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## DonJuan (Oct 20, 2021)

snowbum said:


> You object but have your lust of reasons justifying it and the person. Why do that ic you’d never cheat. I might be the only one but saying you know who’s you replace your wife with seems cold.


I am not trying to justify adultery. In fact, I don’t see how anyone can say they love someone and then deceive them, break the marriage bond, give them an STD, etc., all because of their selfish lust. If that’s love, I don’t want it. I’m one of those first time adultery I’m gone.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

snowbum said:


> So what you are essentially saying is do everything the man wants or expect him to at least want to cheat. Ok


That works! 🫣🫣😱😂😂😂

Obviously I'm kidding.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

Kput said:


> "cheaters lie and deceive because they don't want the SAME thing done to them" that statement defies logic.


You think the lies and secrets, deception and gaslighting are supposed to be logical now? Ok. You do you.


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## Lovingwife71 (Mar 28, 2018)

DonJuan said:


> The abuse just kept us from asking for sex or wanting sex, or wanting to try new things, or wanting to explore our sexuality. Hard to have sex with someone after we’ve both been screaming, yelling, and insulting each other. She could do it, but I couldn’t.


I totally get that. It is definitely hard to have sex after fighting, yelling and screaming. I guess that's where communication comes in. I hope your life is on the right track now. I'm sure you've learned a lot from both, your marital issues and your cheating. Cheating is never the answer, no matter what the problem. Good luck.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

Kput said:


> Sigh away QR. People cheat for an almost infinity of reasons.
> 
> If I had cheated on my wife during her twelve year ld period it would not have been due to not desiring her because I did, neither would it have been because I didn't admire her because I do, I would not of been because I didn't love her because I do, hi it would not have been because I am not proud of her because I am, IT WOULD HAVE BEEN BECAUSE I WASN'T GETTING THE SEXUAL VARIETY I DESIRED but the amazing things she brings to our relationship outweighed my sexual desire for variety.
> 
> ...


I don't think anyone disputes that there are things that could be lacking in a marriage, whether true or perceived, and someone cheats. But, cheating requires lying, and requires a lot of other betrayals, not just the act of sex itself. Or the emotional involvement, or whatever. So, to say that if you aren't getting what you perceive you need in a marriage, this would somehow turn you into a lying, conniving, sneaking cheater...I disagree. Because those things are choices, and that is what is difficult to forgive. There are many dots to connect before cheating even occurs...a gradual looking over the fence to see if the grass is greener, until one day, you leap over the fence.

That is why many people believe cheating is a choice, and not just the inevitable next step because you're not getting your needs met.


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## Kput (3 mo ago)

QuietRiot said:


> You think the lies and secrets, deception and gaslighting are supposed to be logical now? Ok. You do you.


They are logical to the adulterer but as you say I will do me.


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## Kput (3 mo ago)

*Deidre* said:


> I don't think anyone disputes that there are things that could be lacking in a marriage, whether true or perceived, and someone cheats. But, cheating requires lying, and requires a lot of other betrayals, not just the act of sex itself. Or the emotional involvement, or whatever. So, to say that if you aren't getting what you perceive you need in a marriage, this would somehow turn you into a lying, conniving, sneaking cheater...I disagree. Because those things are choices, and that is what is difficult to forgive. There are many dots to connect before cheating even occurs...a gradual looking over the fence to see if the grass is greener, until one day, you leap over the fence.
> 
> That is why many people believe cheating is a choice, and not just the inevitable next step because you're not getting your needs met.


This started because of a statement that "men do not cheat because of something they are not getting from their wives" I believe this statement is incorrect. It is as simple as that.

I have not said that it is right to cheat.

I have not said it is the fault of the person who is cheated on.

I have not said the wife is obliged to meet all of the cheaters desires.

All I have stated is that a perceived lack in the relationship can in some cases lead to men cheating because the relationship is not providing something they want.

This is not hard to understand but understanding does not equal condoning.


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## Jimi007 (6 mo ago)

I agree, there is always a back story. If you can figure out what that is it can give you great incite into the cheater MO


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## Kput (3 mo ago)

Cheaters decide they aren’t getting something, then lie and deceive the spouse because they don’t want the SAME done to them. 

So people "lie and deceive" because they think if they don't then the SAME thing will happen to them. 😕

Illogical


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

Kput said:


> Cheaters decide they aren’t getting something, then lie and deceive the spouse because they don’t want the SAME done to them.
> 
> So people "lie and deceive" because they think if they don't then the SAME thing will happen to them. 😕
> 
> Illogical


Yes. That’s exactly right. It’s called having your cake and eating it too.


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## Kput (3 mo ago)

QuietRiot said:


> Yes. That’s exactly right. It’s called having your cake and eating it too.


Sorry but the statement reads 

you should/will consider cheating because if you don't you should believe the SAME thing will happen to you.

Illogical


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## Kput (3 mo ago)

snowbum said:


> So what you are essentially saying is do everything the man wants or expect him to at least want to cheat. Ok


Hi Snowbum, Possibly a bit of nuance maybe.

Consider maybe that if something is missing in a relationship the person missing that something might possibly but not definitely go looking for that something elsewhere.

Only saints don't have "straying" thoughts, I certainly have but it is only acting on them that is wrong.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

Kput said:


> This started because of a statement that "men do not cheat because of something they are not getting from their wives" I believe this statement is incorrect. It is as simple as that.
> 
> I have not said that it is right to cheat.
> 
> ...


 Thank you for clarifying what you meant. Agreed. 

I think that most would agree that there were probably issues stemming from the marriage, but what others are saying is that the ''solution'' will never come from cheating. So, men may have their reasons, and those reasons for feeling unloved, unwanted, etc may be valid. But, how they handle those feelings is why there are a lot of conflicting responses on here.


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## Kput (3 mo ago)

Problem is cheating in some cases is the "solution". Couple this with the other incorrect belief that "you will always get caught" and it can for some be tempting to cheat.

The idea that cheaters in a lot of cases are evil people betraying a pure and innocent spouse needs to be viewed in shades of grey.


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## snowbum (Dec 14, 2021)

No the cheater is evil. Period. They are also spineless liars.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Kput said:


> Problem is cheating in some cases is the "solution". Couple this with the other incorrect belief that "you will always get caught" and it can for some be tempting to cheat.
> 
> The idea that cheaters in a lot of cases are evil people betraying a pure and innocent spouse needs to be viewed in shades of grey.


The other spouse may not be pure and innocent, maybe even a total ahole, but the cheater is bad to the core, period.


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## Kput (3 mo ago)

BigDaddyNY said:


> The other spouse may not be pure and innocent, maybe even a total ahole, but the cheater is bad to the core, period.


And there we have it.

Most people are a mixture of good and not so good, a cheating spouse may give time and money to a soup kitchen or spend time delivering food to the homeless. Is this person "bad to the core*?


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## UAArchangel (2 mo ago)

I would say that he can focus on having fun, because he knows that she is as interested in having sex with him as he is with her.
There is no work involved. There is no chance that she will say no, so he can just have fun.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Kput said:


> And there we have it.
> 
> Most people are a mixture of good and not so good, a cheating spouse may give time and money to a soup kitchen or spend time delivering food to the homeless. Is this person "bad to the core*?


Yes. Take your example to the extreme. If a ruthless murdering dictator builds a hospital or homeless shelter are they a good person?

They have something so wrong with them that they will break the trust of the person they are supposed to put above all else. The actions of their spouse may make it easier to justify their actions in their mind, but it doesn't change that what they chose to do is wrong.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

Can a ''good'' person do something ''bad,'' though? In some of the stories on TAM for example, betrayed spouses will often remark that they had no idea, they'd never guess that their wife/husband was ''capable'' of something like that. Their cheating spouse is a great dad/mom/friend/provider/partner so they're blindsided, much of the time.

That tells me that sometimes ''good'' people can make mistakes in hugely colossal ways.


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## Kput (3 mo ago)

I agree that what they did is wrong but imo it does not make them "bad to the core"


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## Kput (3 mo ago)

I don't think infidelity is a mistake, to many choices have to be made for it to be a mistake.


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## Kput (3 mo ago)

The reason I debate these issues (apart from enjoying reading others views and the debate itself) is because I know I could have committed infidelity.

My wife who was very hd before childbirth became ld after and I resented it and often showed it with snarky and sarcastic comments, I aimed to hurt and I admit it and am now very ashamed of it. Point is I could have been the cheater but I reject the assumption that I would have been "bad to the core"


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## snowbum (Dec 14, 2021)

I think wanting to hurt someone Manipulate them and lie to them is bad. Giving money isn’t a moral thing. Anyone can donate $. Doesn’t make someone good.


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## Kput (3 mo ago)

snowbum said:


> I think wanting to hurt someone Manipulate them and lie to them is bad. Giving money isn’t a moral thing. Anyone can donate $. Doesn’t make someone good.


"Wanting to hurt someone" you may be aware that most affairs are clandestine with the view to not getting caught so I doubt most cheaters primary objective is not to get caught rather than wanting to hurt someone.


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## snowbum (Dec 14, 2021)

Your comments to your wife were meant to hurt her. You’ve said that


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## Kput (3 mo ago)

I was talking about people who have affairs, if you had a modicum of reading comprehension you would have been aware that was the case.

And yes in my anger I did "jab to hurt" as I have admitted before.


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## Woundidwife (4 mo ago)

Lovingwife71,
I am going to assume that, like me, you are sweet, devoted and were completely blindsided. That you are trying to reconcile for HIS SAKE. Giving up yourself and your happiness for him. I did, too. Trying to make it work…which will end with you fighting against your own brain and emotions and moral compass to transform yourself into someone you do not recognize, who can actually forgive this horrible thing. (I did this, too.)

Girl, I apologize in advance and I am going to warn you now: For a minute here, I am going to become the b!tch poster that I was upset with when I first joined. It has taken me almost 6 months to get to this point, but I am pretty clear on all things infidelity now.

Generally speaking, I am a kind, loving person who was walked on by my STBXCH, and if he had never cheated on me, I would still be with him. (Though in truth, he NEVER deserved me—which I realize now.) If you don’t have the anger yet, IT WILL COME, and it will provide you strength to do what YOU need to do FOR YOU. 

MAYBE YOU DON’T EVEN WANT TO READ THIS NOW. Make sure you are in a good headspace before you do. Either way, there is hard earned wisdom in my words. They will be here when you are ready for them.



Lovingwife71 said:


> There is no issue with that now, but is it too little too late?


Yes. It is. It is WAY too late. Even HE knows it, which is why he is now suddenly “super-husband”—everything you ever wanted and more. 

You were his WIFE. You were NEVER supposed to be the runner up. So the consolation prize is getting the leftovers after learning about his affair? That doesn’t sound appealing to me.

Where was this man before the affair? How long do you think he can keep up these wonderful changes? Haven’t you already been asking him to change for years? (I did, too.) That didn’t ever work, did it? 

Research says that it takes about 5 years for a person to really change. THAT PERSON has to want the change and be willing to keep up constant effort to make the change. Is your CH (cheating husband) able to keep up that kind of pace? Are you willing to suffer through purgatory limbo for that long, waiting to see if the change actually sticks? Waiting to see IF you can ever truly forgive him?



Lovingwife71 said:


> I don't know. That's what I'm trying to decide now.


Yes, you do. YOU kept YOUR vows. What was your initial reaction when you learned of the infidelity? Did you want to throw up? (I did.) Did the idea of leaving him flash before your eyes? (It did for me.) Your gut is not wrong. Your instincts are there for a reason. They are meant to protect you from harm of any kind. Your reaction to cheating is your body telling you what you need to do to make you feel safe again. THAT (infidelity) is a dealbreaker. A book that was recommended to me about the physical and physiological reactions to infidelity was “Cheating in a Nutshell” by Wayne and Tamara Mitchell. It is the nuts and bolts of your reactions to infidelity. It was eye opening for me. If you choose to reconcile and want to fast forward for a peek through the window of your life years down the road afterwards, this book is it. It was written by a couple who ran an advice column over a span of decades and describes the science behind your reactions, research to support them, and everything else from start to finish—including real-life stories of people who have been exactly in your shoes. It is a quick read and may be the kick in the pants you need to help you know what you want to do. (It was for me! I bought it on Amazon and read it when I THOUGHT I was still undecided in my heart, but really I KNEW from the door, but had been contorting myself to try to forgive his cheating a$$.) Even if you don’t completely agree with idea of the book, you should definitely read it as it will very likely help you decide what you really want to do. (It sure clarified things for me.) 

My STBXCH says to me all the time, “We don’t have to go through with this (the divorce)”, “It doesn’t have to be this way,” and “This (divorce) was YOUR decision.” These things are completely untrue. The minute he made the decision (yes, the DECISION—not even the despicable act itself) to spend intimate time with another woman, HE MADE THE DECISION for both of us to end the relationship and get a divorce.

My STBXCH had a one night stand, with a complete stranger. It was NOT even a full blown affair, where he lied to me endlessly or bought gifts for another woman or fell in love. Infidelity is a dealbreaker. It is NOT okay. You do not have to put up with that. Ever. DEAL. BREAK. ER. Period.

I NEVER even would have learned about it. He CONFESSED out of guilt, is now super-husband (sweet, helpful, kind, and putting me on a pedestal), and I am still leaving him. IT IS WONDERFUL that he suddenly isn’t the angry a$$hole that I was afraid to leave all these years. He will be wonderful to his future next-woman, however, only if he keeps up the changes. She is welcome, because out of my pain came this miraculous metamorphosis, and I wish them both the best. My only regret is that it had happened when I ASKED HIM instead of after he realized what he had done to me and how great I had been all along. 

I don’t know if you have children, but I suspect (from your username) that you may have grown ones. (I do.) You may be surprised as to how much support you might get from friends and family who know you both well if you do choose to leave. I know that for me, this was a real concern as we had been married for 27 years, and together for 29, but I was relieved to learn that everyone who REALLY KNEW us were not actually surprised that I was leaving him…just the reason for it surprised everyone. Everyone has supported me. Only folks who only knew us from a distance and thought we had the “perfect marriage” have attempted to initiate “try to work it out” conversations with me.



Lovingwife71 said:


> The marital issues were on BOTH of us, but only ONE of us decided to cheat. Hint: It wasn't me.


Exactly. Even babies and animals react terribly to unfairness. (Research proof is in that book!) The unfairness is only ONE PART of your pain. It goes so much deeper than that. Betrayal is huge and the anger/rage will come from both of these emotions.

Yes, we had our marital issues and that was on both of us, but like you, I kept MY vows despite it all for 27 years—and I had been propositioned several times in the past. It isn’t like I didn’t have an opportunity, but I did have something he didn’t have. Boundaries. If someone hit on me, my go to phrase was: “My husband says the same thing.” End of conversation. Easy. Not so much for my STBXCH apparently. 

Okay. I think I am done with my rant/vent advice now. I promise to try to be supportive of whatever you are intending to do _at the moment_. I know HOW STUBBORN I WAS…and I didn’t want to hear any advice from the opposing team, though it turns out I was on the “leave him” team all along. I just couldn’t admit it to myself for a while there. Hindsight is 20/20!

Meanwhile, cry as much as you need to, and make sure you are confiding in some supportive friends/family. You need all the comfort you can get for now, as I assume you are in the early stages after D-day. (When and how DID you discover the affair?) 

I HIGHLY RECOMMEND you purchase and read the book I mentioned. (Cheating in a Nutshell) There are many others I could also recommend, but I believe that one should be the first, must-read for every betrayed spouse. 

Good luck to you, Lovingwife71. This is a long and painful road. I am still on it, and I am not going to lie; this is rough, but you can get through it. I have seen the light at the end of the tunnel. It DOES exist.


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## Woundidwife (4 mo ago)

Lovingwife71 said:


> I do understand that he's been a certain way for 27 years and his "change" may not be sustainable in the long term. He says he wants to be this way, he didn't like the way he was in the past and he is changing not only for me, but for himself as well. We will see if it lasts.


THIS is exactly the right concern. 

And the reason you NEED to know about if he was affectionate with her is jealousy, which will also fade with time…it will turn into anger.


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## Woundidwife (4 mo ago)

Lovingwife71 said:


> He said it was a wake up for him. He learned a lot from what happened. He didn't like who he was and doesn't want to be that person anymore. Part of me believes him, but is that because I WANT to believe him? Only time will tell if his change is for real.


Mine said the same. He also had a wake-up call. It took putting his pecker where it didn’t belong to realize how wonderful I was. Give me a break.

You will still feel inferior to the AP because he CHOSE HER over you. This is very difficult to forgive, and ONLY YOU even know if this is possible. 

I now believe I can forgive my STBXCH, but only because I will no longer have to spend time in the same space with him, not be required to look at him, have conversations with him, or share my life with him. It is soooo freeing!

Once I made the final decision to stop trying to reconcile—to leave him, I felt like a skank sized weight had been lifted from my shoulders. It was an immediate relief!


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## Woundidwife (4 mo ago)

Lovingwife71 said:


> Believe me, I did laugh in his face. I told him I don't feel bad at all about what happened. It messed with him and he deserves it. He was always worried that her husband would catch them. I told him, I wish he did. I wish he kicked your ass. He is totally insecure and needs external validation. Absolutely. He said to me, "do you feel good when some guy thinks you are hot or wants you?" I said, "yes, it feels good when someone wants me. It doesn't mean I have to act on it because someone wants me. I can feel good about it without having to F them." He said, "well I've never had that before." I said, "ok and? Still doesn't mean you had to act on it." I'm really not trying to rationalize his behavior. At least I don't feel like I am. Maybe I am. You guys are outside looking in so you are going to see it differently. I have been with him for 27 years, married 23. I have filed for divorce. I'm not sure what else I can do. He is doing everything a reconciling spouse should and could be doing. To me though, I still feel it's too little too late. He knows that. Why do you say I'm rationalizing his behavior? I'm not saying I'm not. Obviously I am broken myself and don't see things clearly.
> 
> I've seen pictures of this woman and met her in person. TRUST ME, she IS beyond ugly! If she were pretty, I'd have said so. Now did HE find her attractive? He said he didn't. He said she was all that would respond to him. Like almost every cheater in the world, they don't look at it as they are willing to blow up their marriage. They look at it as, they are never going to get caught. Their spouse is never going to find out. They don't feel they are risking anything.


Girl, he WAS LOOKING FOR AN AFFAIR?

Check please! Over and out.


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## Woundidwife (4 mo ago)

Lovingwife71 said:


> You did not offend me, not at all. I asked for opinions, I don't want kid glove opinions. I know you are trying to make me think, that's EXACTLY what I am looking for.
> 
> I know you aren't trying to be spiteful by saying "good for me for filing for divorce." He needs to know I am serious about not accepting what he did.
> 
> ...


Mine did the same. Whatever random woman appeared and gave him attention, that is what he f*cked, so now, he can have that woman and any other that approaches him. I certainly don’t want him anymore!!!!

ETA: She was not as attractive as me and was also heavier. When this was new to me, I actually spent a few whole days walking through stores TRYING to fathom this concept. Every man I passed, I thought: If I had done what my CH did, THIS could have been the guy I f*cked. Or THIS guy. OR THIS one. It was disgusting. I couldn’t wrap my brain around it. 

And literally 20 minutes with THAT random stranger was worth losing EVERYTHING?

It was definitely time to cut my losses and go.


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## UAArchangel (2 mo ago)

Woundidwife said:


> Mine did the same. Whatever random woman appeared and gave him attention, that is what he f*cked, so now, he can have that woman and any other that approaches him. I certainly don’t want him anymore!!!!


He wants to be validated without having to either earn it or validate in return. The benefits without the work or the need to change to earn his validations. 
Just selfish.


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## Woundidwife (4 mo ago)

UAArchangel said:


> He wants to be validated without having to either earn it or validate in return. The benefits without the work or the need to change to earn his validations.
> Just selfish.


Yep. He sure was.


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## Woundidwife (4 mo ago)

I apologize to everyone who has already been following this thread. I just spent half a day reading it. 

I was in a bad place…needed a better avenue for my energy, so, here it is. 😬


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Woundidwife said:


> I apologize to everyone who has already been following this thread. I just spent half a day reading it.
> 
> I was in a bad place…needed a better avenue for my energy, so, here it is. 😬


You’ve come a long way from the early days. It may not have been as quick as some posters would have liked but people need to do things in their own time. Some, like me, waste many years trying to salvage a dysfunctional marriage after infidelity but you didn’t. This is a tough thing to go through — having to rebuild a destroyed life — and you’ve done a much better job of it than I did. So be proud of yourself because you definitely should be.


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## Woundidwife (4 mo ago)

Openminded said:


> You’ve come a long way from the early days. It may not have been as quick as some posters would have liked but people need to do things in their own time. Some, like me, waste many years trying to salvage a dysfunctional marriage after infidelity but you didn’t. This is a tough thing to go through — having to rebuild a destroyed life — and you’ve done a much better job of it than I did. So be proud of yourself because you definitely should be.


Thank you. I feel like I am now entering the stage where I can help others, and welp, this was the result of my first attempt. 

Getting ready to post some of my recovery work on my own thread. Sh!t’s about to get real. 😊


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Woundidwife said:


> Thank you. I feel like I am now entering the stage where I can help others, and welp, this was the result of my first attempt.
> 
> Getting ready to post some of my recovery work on my own thread. Sh!t’s about to get real. 😊


Helping other posters, and sharing my story, is why I have stayed for ten years. I wanted posters to know that it’s possible to come out of a long marriage and rebuild and be happy again. It’s a bleak time when you’re going through the process and it all seems so hopeless so I think it’s important for posters who have lived it to share what they’re comfortable in sharing to help others get through it. Many posters leave once they are through the worst of it. I hope you’ll stay and be a regular contributor.


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## Woundidwife (4 mo ago)

Openminded said:


> Helping other posters, and sharing my story, is why I have stayed for ten years. I wanted posters to know that it’s possible to come out of a long marriage and rebuild and be happy again. It’s a bleak time when you’re going through the process and it all seems so hopeless so I think it’s important for posters who have lived it to share what they’re comfortable in sharing to help others get through it. Many posters leave once they are through the worst of it. I hope you’ll stay and be a regular contributor.


I will certainly try. The funny thing is that I WAS already helping on another forum….one for medical issues. I was “giving back” to the ladies who had supported me through a surgery. I wasn’t a moderator exactly, but I had a title and WAS in a more elevated position than the average bear…guiding progress and reporting anything that was untoward or suggested mental health concerns to the site managers. It was voluntary, but I had assignments that lasted for a minimum of a set number of months at a clip. It was very time consuming, but rewarding. Never expected to be involved in a forum like this one. Kinda just ended an assignment at the perfect time for my life to implode and join a new one!

Also, I felt (early on) that I NEEDED to hear the story of a ONS with a happier ending. At that time, I meant reconciliation…. I think I WILL have that, but with divorce. I probably WILL stick around simply because I can maybe sway someone before they waste too much time struggling in the wrong direction. Cheating is cheating is cheating. The reason doesn’t matter, the duration doesn’t matter—these are just different levels of pain. I know this now. Once a BS learns this, the journey to freedom can begin.


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